# Like minded folks



## RuffusWI

Is it me , but "like minded" people like us few and far between?
I'm not the best orator ,but meeting a people that understands what sustainable means and not be a tree-hugger hippie is hard. Much less a woman. LOL


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## Raeven

There are a few tree-hugger hippie type women around here who fully understand what sustainable means, including me. So, you know, with respect and all....


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## vicker

Tree hugger here too


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## Guest

Heck with this. I'm dumping Tree, my girlfriend with the hippy name. I knew something wasn't right.


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## Fowler

Not a treehugger, but I know what stable means...I mean substainable...LOL!!!


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## cindilu

Raeven said:


> There are a few tree-hugger hippie type women around here who fully understand what sustainable means, including me. So, you know, with respect and all....


What Raeven said, from Oregon here and I know what sustainable means as well as tree-hugger hippie type of chica. 

My desire is to live off the grid and out in the country somewhere.


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## Guest

My desires focus around fried cheese sandwiches. Who's really simple around here??


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## Darren

There's quite a few people in this area that understand sustainabiliy and self-reliance. Some never had to learn the old ways. That is common here. Trees are viewed as money in the bank. Just trying to get people to leave the trees along the streambanks was a futile effort with most.


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## Marshloft

Lost me at tree hugger. I have no idea what that means
I think there's a religeon out there somewhere that believes god is in the trees.
Forgot the name tho,,


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## elkhound

if you come down here and you are like minded you will never fit in anywhere else again.this is the warped section at times.....lol


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## FarmboyBill

nobody farms OR much of homesteading here. BUT IF I had to pick one or the other, Id say theres more homesteaders here by AT LEAST 10 to 1


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## vicker

I have no problem with people using sustainable resources responsibly.


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## Raven12

No offense but I am getting a kick out of how posters are throwing the word treehugger and hippie around. It has become such a freakin fad. (Also see Wyldthing's thread) This has to be one of the most conservative homesteading sites on the internet. Example: Thread dedicated to pictures of individuals posing with their guns.


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## MinerJohn

I dig treehuggers, I dig hippies, I dig folks with guns. I completely lost my train of thought of what I was going to say.


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## Guest

Man, why can't I be unbalanced?? Then I'd fit right in.


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## Raven12

You are awesome, Zong.


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## Guest

Down here, we're "y'allsome"


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## L.A.

I often wonder If people know what the "Hippy" really was.

I'm beginning to think if you weren't around in the 60s, Well,you just had to be there.


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## Marshloft

L.A. said:


> I often wonder If people know what the "Hippy" really was.
> 
> I'm beginning to think if you weren't around in the 60s, Well,you just had to be there.


 I never wondered,,, didn't care one way or nother.
Never got the flowered vw bus tho. Was late to the party.
I was driven a 68 chevy pick-up and wearin cowboy boots.
Even missed out on the free sex love ins,,
Got to see a few bra burning events tho,, that was interesting.
Back then,, we got to hang our rifles in the back window. Don't see
that anymore.


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## L.A.

Marshloft said:


> I never wondered,,, didn't care one way or nother.
> Never got the flowered vw bus tho. Was late to the party.
> I was driven a 68 chevy pick-up and wearin cowboy boots.
> Even missed out on the free sex love ins,,
> Got to see a few bra burning events tho,, that was interesting.
> Back then,, we got to hang our rifles in the back window. Don't see
> that anymore.


Never was the Bus or the boots.....

Hippys like Cowboys..are born...not made


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## doodlemom

L.A. said:


> Never was the Bus or the boots.....
> 
> Hippys like Cowboys..are born...not made


Not on TV
[YOUTUBE]ACF4XDznGEs[/YOUTUBE]


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## littlejoe

Kinda like trees, but to hug them? NO! Figure everything should have a harvest at some point. If it's not used by us in the right fashion, nature might harvest it in a way that hurts us for the moment.

I don't think tree huggers have any concept of nature! It ain't all peace and cheer. We have a duty to be a good steward, but there are different concepts of what fits...

THat might light a fire?


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## City Bound

I do not think the hippies that came after the real hippies are real hippies. The real hippies were in the scene from 1966 to 1968. The hippy scene only lasted three years then it started to crash. The late comers who picked up the scene later were mostly copy cats who prolonged the scene. The counter culture made a big splash and rippled out.

I do not consider these modern hippies who are 20 years old to be real hippies. 

The hippies owe a large debt to the beatniks. The beatniks basicly gave birth to the hippie scene. Without the beatniks i do not think there would been a hippie scene. The beatniks brought the eastern element into the scene. They brought the free love aspect to the scene. They brought the drugs culture to the scene. They even brought the psychodelic bus to the scene that so many copied until it became and iconinc symbol of the movement.


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## Raven12

There is more to being a hippie than living off grid, wearing the clothes, doing drugs, having an eco degree, driving a van, or listening to the Dead. Living with an outhouse is not a new invention. Heck, there are countless numbers of hunter's cabins without bathrooms. Being a hippie is all about social and emotional awareness. Action and not words. I am constantly running across kids who want to get stoned and yuppie hippies. The majority of hippies I hang with are in their 60s/70s.


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## Guest

I was there, and now I'm here. Life just seems so self apparent to me. I don't get all the angst.


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## WhyNot

RuffusWI said:


> Is it me , but "like minded" people like us few and far between?
> I'm not the best orator ,but meeting a people that understands what sustainable means and not be a tree-hugger hippie is hard. Much less a woman. LOL


I have no answer for you about this....except for that one of these women you find so hard to find has left Wisconsin because she couldn't find a man that knew what these meant either. Well not really...sort of....but you get the idea.

They are there...you're just not finding them lol. Go to the sustainable energy fair in Stevens Point next year...you might find a couple. You have to go to where the homesteaders will go otherwise they are......uhm on their homesteads.


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## frogmammy

L.A. said:


> Never was the Bus or the boots.....
> 
> Hippys like Cowboys..are born...not made


Right on!

Mon


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## wyld thang

no hippies here, move along move along...

THIS btw is THE magic bus, v 2.0, painted by Ken Kesey and the Pranksters in 1990. It was purring to have me shine its grill.


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## WhyNot

hehe THAT is so awesome, C!


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## Raeven

LOL, beautiful -- the bus AND the girl! Thanks for sharing, Wyld! Put a big smile on my face!


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## Fowler

I love that pic!!!!!!


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## Groene Pionier

RuffusWI said:


> Is it me , but "like minded" people like us few and far between?
> I'm not the best orator ,but meeting a people that understands what sustainable means and not be a tree-hugger hippie is hard. Much less a woman. LOL


try living in the Netherlands... you will become an outcast!


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## Groene Pionier

cindilu said:


> my desire is to live off the grid and out in the country somewhere.


hear hear...!!


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## Vickie44

Cool boots and great picture WT . There are films of the Merry Pranksters driving around in Furthur at a place called the Museum of Temporary Art. They also have films of Neil Cassady ( aka Dean Moriority sp? from On The Road ) driving around with a redhead and talking , talking , talking .


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## bruce2288

I hoped some one would like a YOutube of the bellamy bros singing "old hippy"


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## Fowler

Raven12 said:


> There is more to being a hippie than living off grid, wearing the clothes, doing drugs, having an eco degree, driving a van, or listening to the Dead. Living with an outhouse is not a new invention. Heck, there are countless numbers of hunter's cabins without bathrooms. Being a hippie is all about social and emotional awareness. Action and not words. I am constantly running across kids who want to get stoned and yuppie hippies. The majority of hippies I hang with are in their 60s/70s.



eeerrrrrrrccckkk ~spins sideways~


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## shanzone2001

There are many conservative folks here who strive to live off the land....there are actually more than it may appear.


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## Prismseed

Indeed there are. Though they seem to have mellowed quite a bit. Once censorship ran near rampant around here.


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## elkhound

Fowler said:


> eeerrrrrrrccckkk ~spins sideways~



just promise to make me feel loved and appreciated....lol

[youtube]RiEIToOWr64[/youtube]


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## wyld thang

what I like about the ST part of HT is there is way less spitefulness in the whole conservative/liberal junior high ridiculousness.

just sayin.


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## City Bound

Vickie44 said:


> Cool boots and great picture WT . There are films of the Merry Pranksters driving around in Furthur at a place called the Museum of Temporary Art. They also have films of Neil Cassady ( aka Dean Moriority sp? from On The Road ) driving around with a redhead and talking , talking , talking .


I saw some clips of neil cassidy driving further and chattering away also. He looked like a lot of fun. He did almost all the driving during the voyage and rarely slept. I think he was on speed.

They all looked like they had a great time.


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## RuffusWI

Wow I hit a nerve! No wonder the moderators hate me...
What I ment by "treehugger" was animal rights- anti fur,hunting nuts. When I tell a person or woman I consider myself a backwoodsman. They think I eat tofu and pray to trees.
But I just want to live self-reliant. Let others live working the grind giving there money to big brother to redistribute to the bottom feeders. Not ME! I can live close to the land.
I'm a TRAPPER yes fur! I sell the fur. Also I hunt to eat. Doesn't mean I don't respect animals, in fact I know more about about wildlife behavior than most diehard deerhunters. I have to. 
What I consider a hippy is the "lets make the forest into a park and watch all the animals live in harmony" "yes we can ride our bikes and jog and make art!" Da** all those hicks living in the woods killing things and burning carbon! Pass a law! Ban them!! Help us ! Savor OBAMA!!
Get my point?


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## RuffusWI

I enjoy BWH . Maybe saying that help explains my lifestyle a wee bit more to. As I said before not a great orator. Collage dropout sorry....


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## City Bound

ahhhh, I would say that people who feel the call to live o the land are just people who feel called to live off the land. Once upon a time everyone lived off the land beause that was the only way you could live.


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## City Bound

rufus, my brother calls me a hippy beause I am interested in solar panels and gardening. people have all kinds of stupid idas in their heads.

My brother is curious about gardning and living off the land but he is all conflicted over it. He thinks it would make him a hippy and he hates hippies.


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## City Bound

fur is warm.....warn is good.

fur is more eco friendly then synthetic fabrics and they are a renewable resource.


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## wyld thang

RuffusWI said:


> Wow I hit a nerve! No wonder the moderators hate me...
> What I ment by "treehugger" was *animal rights- anti fur,hunting nuts*. When I tell a person or woman I consider myself a backwoodsman. They think I eat tofu and pray to trees.
> But I just want to live self-reliant. Let others live working the grind giving there money to big brother to redistribute to the bottom feeders. Not ME! I can live close to the land.
> I'm a TRAPPER yes fur! I sell the fur. Also I hunt to eat. Doesn't mean I don't respect animals, in fact I know more about about wildlife behavior than most diehard deerhunters. I have to.
> What I consider a hippy is the "lets make the forest into a park and watch all the animals live in harmony" "yes we can ride our bikes and jog and make art!" Da** all those hicks living in the woods killing things and burning carbon! Pass a law! Ban them!! Help us ! Savor OBAMA!!
> Get my point?


tee hee!

what you meant by treehugger is PETAfreak.

I think there's a lot of treehuggers out here on the Left Coast that you'd get along with pretty well, at least if you drop your assumptions. They also aren't too impressed with Obama neither--they realize full well it's all the same.

What you describe as being upset with is ignorant urban dwellers who have no concept of the reality of nature, who live in the Bambi Matrix. If you go deeper, think about what kind of people are at home in the woods, are capable in the woods, love the wild--they are independent, neighbor appreciating, creative, outside the box critical thinkers, people the Grand Poobah that runs this american machine is scared poopless by. Keep people out of the woods, dumb them down by keeping them wired into the Matrix with bread and circuses, you have control of the masses/money.

Resistance is not futile, and you'll find fellow warriors in the place you least expect.

If that doesn't work I have a blue lemon Voodoo donut for ya haha


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## wyld thang

I'm sorry I should have said PETAafficianado


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## doodlemom

Fowler and I want free furs.


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## Fowler

Then you know what we have to do....LOL


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## wyld thang

I have a coyote tail I wear sometimes amoungst hippies where dancing's involved and I've never gotten my butt chewed for wearing fur


hahahaah!

ps funny how a tail makes you dance better y'all should try it!


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## L.A.

wyld thang said:


> I have a coyote tail I wear sometimes amoungst hippies where dancing's involved and I've never gotten my butt chewed for wearing fur
> 
> 
> hahahaah!
> 
> ps funny how a tail makes you dance better y'all should try it!



Your coyote did.....:teehee:


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## Fowler

wyld thang said:


> I have a coyote tail I wear sometimes amoungst hippies where dancing's involved and I've never gotten my butt chewed for wearing fur
> 
> 
> hahahaah!
> 
> ps funny how a tail makes you dance better y'all should try it!


Have one, wore it during my Biker days, won a......nevermind. :teehee:


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## WhyNot

Fowler said:


> Then you know what we have to do....LOL


Uhmmmm.....tackle and shave elkhound? :teehee:


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## Fowler

WhyNot said:


> Uhmmmm.....tackle and shave elkhound? :teehee:


Where else would Doodle and I get the fur? She supplies my chloroform. Jezzzzzzzzzzzz


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## cindilu

wyld thang said:


> no hippies here, move along move along...
> 
> THIS btw is THE magic bus, v 2.0, painted by Ken Kesey and the Pranksters in 1990. It was purring to have me shine its grill.


Girl, you are hawt, hope someone else told ya that today as well.


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## Shygal

City Bound said:


> fur is warm.....warn is good.
> 
> fur is more eco friendly then synthetic fabrics and they are a renewable resource.


So is wool yarn and nothing has to die just because someone wants to wear its skin.

Hunting I don't mind, but there is no real use or need for fur anymore, other than to show it off. 

And yeah, count me in as a tree hugger in that case.


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## shanzone2001

wyld thang said:


> what I like about the ST part of HT is there is way less spitefulness in the whole conservative/liberal junior high ridiculousness.
> 
> just sayin.


Yeah, we tend to avoid political arguments for the most part....(Although us conservatives could run circles around you libs!!!! :teehee


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## doodlemom

Shygal said:


> So is wool yarn and nothing has to die just because someone wants to wear its skin.
> 
> Hunting I don't mind, but there is no real use or need for fur anymore, other than to show it off.
> 
> And yeah, count me in as a tree hugger in that case.


I like the idea of being at the top of the food chain and having somebody benefit from the exploding woodchuck, muskrat, nutria, and whatever else is overpopulating itself.


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## wyld thang

dang it, I'm a Pogoist!!!! free beer for everyone!


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## City Bound

shy, fur and down are very warm, much warmer then some crappy poly fiber fill could ever be. Leather blocks the wind much better then the plastic coats they sell in the store.

Animals die, but they die for a good reason, to shelter us, not because we are vain.


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## City Bound

pass the beer, bring the cheer.


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## doodlemom

WhyNot said:


> Uhmmmm.....tackle and shave elkhound? :teehee:


Bring your gun Whynot. We're going in lol.


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## shanzone2001

Woodchucks???

How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood???

My answer? It depends whether or not the woodchuck is a liberal....if so they would want someone to chuck the wood and give it to them for free because they are entitled to as much wood as everyone else. 

Bwahahahaha!!!!


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## doodlemom

He's strong as a bull!


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## wyld thang

L.A. said:


> Your coyote did.....:teehee:


haha! I bought it at a hippy fair and the man/taxidermist I bought it from(who was selling furs and skulls and stuff at this hippy fair) got really excited when I said it was for my Ted Nugent costume. He also said the tail matched my hair nice.

so there!

(((shakes tail))))


(haha Fowler! mwah!!!)


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## City Bound

out of the corner of my I mistook this thread title to read "like minded fools".

liberals can not be woodchucks, they have to be Badgers because that all they do badger other people.


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## doodlemom

shanzone2001 said:


> Woodchucks???
> 
> How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood???
> 
> My answer? It depends whether or not the woodchuck is a liberal....if so they would want someone to chuck the wood and give it to them for free because they are entitled to as much wood as everyone else.
> 
> Bwahahahaha!!!!


Somehow I think that wood would be ground into pulp for foodstamps and delivered once the lumberjack got it chopped and filed his taxes.


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## shanzone2001

I love it, Doodle! You are too funny! (We are going to get in trouble, huh?)


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## City Bound

................

deleted. I decided to follow in the footsteps of jesus, and try to be nice.


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## shanzone2001

City Bound said:


> liberals can not be woodchucks, they have to be Badgers because that all they do badger other people.


I have to steal that!!!!!!!:goodjob::goodjob::goodjob:


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## L.A.

doodlemom said:


> Bring your gun Whynot. We're going in lol.


who of you get the tail?:spinsmiley:


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## doodlemom

City Bound said:


> ................
> 
> deleted. I decided to follow in the footsteps of jesus, and try to be nice.


You were being humorous. That was an awesome badger.


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## elkhound

doodlemom said:


> I like the idea of being at the top of the food chain and having somebody benefit from the exploding woodchuck, muskrat, nutria, and whatever else is overpopulating itself.


the colder it gets the higher the fur prices become because in real cold climates fur works the best for coats and such.


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## City Bound

shanzone2001 said:


> I have to steal that!!!!!!!:goodjob::goodjob::goodjob:


it is true though right. if they can not win by badgering then they try to win with a guilt trip. and if that does not work they will paint you as the devil and then try to muster up a lynch mob to hang you ffor being the devil.
and if that does work then they paint you as the bully who is picking on them.


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## doodlemom

L.A. said:


> who of you get the tail?:spinsmiley:


He doesn't have a tail, but I heard whatever it is if you pull it he'll throw money at you.


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## City Bound

doodlemom said:


> You were being humorous. That was an awesome badger.


I know, but sometimes I have to remember the standards i would like to live my life by and then actually apply them to real life. I guess you could say I was trying to earn my Merit Badger for civil mindedness.


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## elkhound

yall forget i am easy going...if you ask i will do about anything...yall can have the hair if ya need it....be gentle......but turn about is fair play....so yall get ready.....we all are going to smell like shaving cream and bubble bath and feel refreshed and calm by the time daylight comes.


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## L.A.

doodlemom said:


> He doesn't have a tail, but I heard whatever it is if you pull it he'll throw money at you.



So...He's a Liberal?????


...Wish I had not said that :teehee:

Better hope it's "Soft Money"


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## wyld thang

elkhound said:


> yall forget i am easy going...if you ask i will do about anything...yall can have the hair if ya need it....be gentle......but turn about is fair play....so yall get ready.....we all are going to smell like shaving cream and bubble bath and feel refreshed and calm by the time daylight comes.


yo elky


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## shanzone2001

WT, you are such a tease!!!! :whistlin:


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## elkhound

wyld thang said:


> yo elky



:teehee::teehee::teehee:


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## City Bound

wyld thang said:


> yo elky


hubba-hubba. yummy.


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## Shygal

City Bound said:


> shy, fur and down are very warm, much warmer then some crappy poly fiber fill could ever be. Leather blocks the wind much better then the plastic coats they sell in the store.
> 
> Animals die, but they die for a good reason, to shelter us, not because we are vain.


Again, wool is renewable, nothing has to die to use it, and its one of the warmest things around. 

How many people do you see nowadays going around in fur leggings and capes to keep warm?

Leather, at least you are eating the animal it came from. Killing an animal just to have fur trim on a coat? Nope.


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## Shygal

City Bound said:


> it is true though right. if they can not win by badgering then they try to win with a guilt trip. and if that does not work they will paint you as the devil and then try to muster up a lynch mob to hang you ffor being the devil.
> and if that does work then they paint you as the bully who is picking on them.


they, they , they

People that believe differently than you do, are still people. None of what you say is in the least bit true here. You cause more divisiveness by saying things like this, than any "liberal" has caused here. People are people.


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## Shygal

City Bound said:


> I know, but sometimes I have to remember the standards i would like to live my life by and then actually apply them to real life. I guess you could say I was trying to earn my Merit Badger for civil mindedness.


LoL you say this, after your other post. Priceless.


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## elkhound

never mind...roll me in barbed wire..


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## Guest

If you lived down here, you wouldn't need any fur, or wool either one. It's October, I'm sitting out on the porch without a stitch of anything. No fur, no wool, no nothing. Not eating meat either. Just sipping on some seriously good wine, and NOT worrying about no debates. I got my crap together. I feel bad for everybody else. Not bad enough to put on any clothes or anything like that. just kinda bad.


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## Shygal

yeah I do know what Im talking about. Its just that I don't agree with you, so thats a good attack for you to use


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## shanzone2001

I am one of those crazy folks who believe that God created animals for the benefit of humans...whether it be for food, clothing, tools, etc.

That being said, most folks I know who hunt and raise their own animals provide them a good life and dispatch them humanely.

This discussion has really been beat to death many times.......


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## elkhound

never mind...put me on ignore


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## Guest

Send me some cheese, and I'll put my hat on.


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## tambo

Shy you know they start these threads to get you to come out and play don't you? You are to easy because it works everytime.


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## Guest

Everybody has a right to disagree. Unless, of course, they're disagreeing with me!!


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## L.A.

zong said:


> Send me some cheese, and I'll put my hat on.


Stetson Beaver Hat?


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## Shygal

tambo said:


> Shy you know they start these threads to get you to come out and play don't you? You are to easy because it works everytime.


No, sorry, it wasnt started for me 

And if by that you mean I stand up for what I believe, then yep I do.


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## Shygal

Shan, I am one of those that believe that animals were put on this earth just as we were, to live and enjoy it. Yes we use them for food and most people here do raise them to have a good life, and dispatch them humanely and then use every part of the animal that can be used.

But killing a mink or fox or raccoon or whatever, just to skin them and throw the animal away? I won't ever support that.


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## tambo

Shygal said:


> No, sorry, it wasnt started for me
> 
> And if by that you mean I stand up for what I believe, then yep I do.


No I didn't mean you stand up for what you believe. I meant your friends were missing you so they set some bait to get you to come out and play. Little bit of crumbs here you come.


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## shanzone2001

Shygal said:


> But killing a mink or fox or raccoon or whatever, just to skin them and throw the animal away? I won't ever support that.


I agree.


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## Guest

I have a lot of hats. One is a 300 dollar hat I got for $15 on Ebay. Naugahide, I think. Lotta naked nauga's out there. I hope that doesn't sound sexist.


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## Terri in WV

Ok, I'm jumping in late, but I want to know why you all keep wanting to shave Elk. He has a great beard!

FWIW-when I hear Backwoodsman, I think Grizzly Adams.

I suppose you all would want to shave him too......


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## WhyNot

Terri in WV said:


> Ok, I'm jumping in late, but I want to know why you all keep wanting to shave Elk. He has a great beard!
> 
> FWIW-when I hear Backwoodsman, I think Grizzly Adams.
> 
> I suppose you all would want to shave him too......


N0o0o0o0o..not the beard...the world needs more Beardeo's.....you know....just his back...maybe his legs, depending on if Fowler also needs leggins. We all know I don't shave mine, so.... you know...


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## WhyNot

Also and FWIW (not much, most likely)..when I hear backwoodsman I think of Jack Pine Savages...when I hear mountain man, I think of Grizzly Adams. All with beards intact, of course.


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## City Bound

Shygal said:


> LoL you say this, after your other post. Priceless.


dear, I am flawed. I can admit that to myself. Can you?

If I was a perfect saint I would not be on this earth.


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## Guest

You ain't.


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## Shygal

tambo said:


> No I didn't mean you stand up for what you believe. I meant your friends were missing you so they set some bait to get you to come out and play. Little bit of crumbs here you come.


You might want to check into reality sometime, because the original poster here did not start this thread for bait for me, neither did elkhound or CB say what they said as bait for me , yeesh.


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## doodlemom

Feels like a family reunion lol.


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## Guest

Are we debating yet? I don't have to put on my clothes, do I?? I debate better without them.


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## L.A.

Shygal said:


> You might want to check into reality sometime, because the original poster here did not start this thread for bait for me, neither did elkhound or CB say what they said as bait for me , yeesh.


I did....


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## City Bound

Shygal said:


> Again, wool is renewable, nothing has to die to use it, and its one of the warmest things around.
> 
> How many people do you see nowadays going around in fur leggings and capes to keep warm?
> 
> Leather, at least you are eating the animal it came from. Killing an animal just to have fur trim on a coat? Nope.


wool is good but it is not good enough.

People use to wear a lot more fur and they enjoyed themselves doing it until some raging nut jobs in the 1980's started a trend of tossing red paint on them and their nice coats, or they screamed insults at them on the streets like maniacs. 

Then the worst weapon came out, the guilt trips and the shaming. That really put the Kibosh on wearing fur. If people were not so araid of these animal rights nut jobs then fur woul be very, very popular again and people would be enjoying how nicely it keeps them warm.

Who says you can not eat the animal you take fur from? It would be a waste not to eat it. Maybe commercial farms did not send the meat off for consumptions, I do not know, but if they did that then they were pretty silly


----------



## Shygal

L.A. said:


> I did....


Did you say something?


----------



## doodlemom

Shygal said:


> Shan, I am one of those that believe that animals were put on this earth just as we were, to live and enjoy it. Yes we use them for food and most people here do raise them to have a good life, and dispatch them humanely and then use every part of the animal that can be used.
> 
> But killing a mink or fox or raccoon or whatever, just to skin them and throw the animal away? I won't ever support that.


Many eat it, feed it to their dogs or whatever.


----------



## Shygal

City Bound said:


> wool is good but it is not good enough.
> 
> People use to wear a lot more fur and they enjoyed themselves doing it until some raging nut jobs in the 1980's started a trend of tossing red paint on them and their nice coats, or they screamed insults at them on the streets like maniacs.
> 
> Then the worst weopon came out, the guilt trips and the shaming. That really put the Kibosh on wearing fur. If people were not so araid of these animal rights nut jobs then fur woul be very, very popular again and people would be enjoying how nicely it keeps them warm.
> 
> Who says you can not eat the animal you take fur from? It would be a waste not to eat it. Maybe commercial farms did not send the meet off for consuptions, I do not know, but if they did that then they were pretty silly.


When is the last time you saw mink steak or fox chops in the grocery store? What did you really THINK they do with the raccoons or weasels or minks or fox that they take the fur from? 

I stay nicely warm with my wool coat, or my polyester coat. I don't think there is anyone in the US that really NEEDS to wear a fur outfit like Luke Skywalker on Toth.


----------



## City Bound

shy......
If I had the time I could look it up on the internet and find out. Do you think maybe they might of sold the bodies or dog and cat food?


----------



## doodlemom

City Bound said:


> wool is good but it is not good enough.
> 
> People use to wear a lot more fur and they enjoyed themselves doing it until some raging nut jobs in the 1980's started a trend of tossing red paint on them and their nice coats, or they screamed insults at them on the streets like maniacs.
> 
> Then the worst weopon came out, the guilt trips and the shaming. That really put the Kibosh on wearing fur. If people were not so araid of these animal rights nut jobs then fur woul be very, very popular again and people would be enjoying how nicely it keeps them warm.
> 
> Who says you can not eat the animal you take fur from? It would be a waste not to eat it. Maybe commercial farms did not send the meat off for consumptions, I do not know, but if they did that then they were pretty silly


Mink was re-fed to the mink, but they should have withheld the brains=mad mink. Rabbit fur coats were the only fur I ever owned and I've eaten every rabbit I've ever skinned.


----------



## Guest

You're like that guy in "Silence of the Rabbits" aren't you?


----------



## littlejoe

Shygal said:


> Again, wool is renewable, nothing has to die to use it, and its one of the warmest things around.
> 
> How many people do you see nowadays going around in fur leggings and capes to keep warm?
> 
> Leather, at least you are eating the animal it came from. Killing an animal just to have fur trim on a coat? Nope.


THose fuzzy little cute animals are a renewable resource as well, just as much as wool is. We can trap, hunt, dispose of them as we see fit, so we provide a better environment for all. It's as it should be! You simply have no idea what you speak of. Ever seen coyotes eating something alive? ever seen prairie dogs comepletely ruin a pasture. Nature isn't a feel good thing. Ever seen disease strike a species, and decimate it? That's why we strive to keep a healthy balance!!!!! God gave us dominion over animals, as well as sense to use it.

If the fur can be used for a purpose, why not?



Shygal said:


> Shan, I am one of those that believe that animals were put on this earth just as we were, to live and enjoy it. Yes we use them for food and most people here do raise them to have a good life, and dispatch them humanely and then use every part of the animal that can be used.
> 
> But killing a mink or fox or raccoon or whatever, just to skin them and throw the animal away? I won't ever support that.


I've had mt lion and bobcat...wouldn't be on my favorites, tried some coyote once, didn't like it...beaver is ok. Many people eat raccoon and possum.

You say, *use every part of the animal that can be used*. Do you buy your meat out of a store, or butcher it yourself? Are you going to use every thing? there are many things and ways to use it. I really doubt it! The indians didn't even use everything in times of plenty. They couldn't, despite how some people believe they want to live and be one with nature like the indian!

We are all part of a food chain, but at the top for just a moment. While we're here we need to use discernment, and actually watch and realize how things interact, and the role we were given as a steward.


----------



## City Bound

toth that is unny, seriously. I like that. Good scene.

we have damp windy winters here in nyc. we are right on the ocean and we are right in the path of the artic winds that pass across the US in the winter. It is damp and windy here. I could never ind a coat to keep me warm my whole life long. I shivered every winter until I bought a goosedown coats. Even with a wool hat, when it dipped to the single diggits here my head was cold, but then I bought a down and rabbit fur hat or those days and not only does it keep my head warm it keeps it too warm. I sweat in it sometimes and have to lift my hat to let the reezing air in to cool my head down.


----------



## City Bound

doodlemom said:


> Mink was re-fed to the mink, but they should have withheld the brains=mad mink. Rabbit fur coats were the only fur I ever owned and I've eaten every rabbit I've ever skinned.


did you make the coat? Was the coat light?


----------



## L.A.

I've only seen 1 mink in the wild,,they are very shy and elusive,, but I can tell you one thing for sure.......

Mink Stink


----------



## defenestrate

I have found that while folks who are seriously interested in homesteading/sustainable/off-grid/etc living are a minority, we tend to pay attention and engage each other when reasonable. I rarely pass up an opportunity to at least gloss over DIY/sustainable living concepts when I deem it appropriate, and as I get to know people personally, I tend to make some effort to acclimate/assimilate them with my way of thinking. I am far behind a great many of you in terms of actual progress, for a number of reasons, but self-reliance and preparation for life's ups and downs are ideas that never really get old, IMO.


----------



## Shygal

littlejoe said:


> THose fuzzy little cute animals are a renewable resource as well, just as much as wool is. We can trap, hunt, dispose of them as we see fit, so we provide a better environment for all. It's as it should be! You simply have no idea what you speak of. Ever seen coyotes eating something alive? ever seen prairie dogs comepletely ruin a pasture. Nature isn't a feel good thing. Ever seen disease strike a species, and decimate it? That's why we strive to keep a healthy balance!!!!! God gave us dominion over animals, as well as sense to use it.
> 
> If the fur can be used for a purpose, why not?


If the fur can be used for a purpose along with using the MEAT, ok. And man is the one that decided that animals are here for us to use as we see fit. How are you providing a better environment for the dead beaver and fox? 

No kidding nature isnt a feel good thing. it doesnt mean we have to do the same. 

God did not give us dominion over the animals, we ARE an animal. And please don't quote the bible to me because I don't believe it. You believe what you want, and I will believe what I want, and I do not agree with your viewpoint on things as you don't agree with mine.


----------



## doodlemom

City Bound said:


> did you make the coat? Was the coat light?


My grandmother showed me how. More of a vest actually. Casual wear lol. Rabbit coats were mainstream off the rack cheap at Ames, Caldors, Bradlees, K Mart. 









































My meat breeds in the past purebred new zealand red/white/black, giant chinchilla and angora for spinning. I'll go back to it eventually.


----------



## shanzone2001

Nice rabbits, Doodle! I like the grey furred one.


----------



## Guest

Is that rabbit listening to Strauss's "Also Sprach Zarathustra"??


----------



## doodlemom

Princess my pet for daughter= Dutch. Too small a breed for meat.


----------



## littlejoe

You didn't answer my question about how you obtain your meat? If it's from a supermarket, you have no business making your statements. If you butcher your own, do you utilize everything you can? If you don't, you still have the same as above. 

We create a more sustainable environment for these critters by preventing overpopulation, which is dealt with by disease and starvation. Which makes beiing eaten alive a fast death. A death by a harvestor/trapper/hunter is a far less cruel death than the other ways nature provides. We ARE a part of nature, and it is our duty to supply a role in it. Although not all are equipped to do so.

You can be an animal if you choose. I was given a conscience, and a thought process, something animals arent gifted with.


----------



## Evons hubby

When one is as large a fellow as I am I dont know how many little denims have to die to make a coat.... but its got to be a LOT! Havent seen much denim steak on the restaurant menus either.... :shrug:


----------



## Shygal

littlejoe said:


> You didn't answer my question about how you obtain your meat? If it's from a supermarket, you have no business making your statements. If you butcher your own, do you utilize everything you can? If you don't, you still have the same as above.
> 
> We create a more sustainable environment for these critters by preventing overpopulation, which is dealt with by disease and starvation. Which makes beiing eaten alive a fast death. A death by a harvestor/trapper/hunter is a far less cruel death than the other ways nature provides. We ARE a part of nature, and it is our duty to supply a role in it. Although not all are equipped to do so.
> 
> You can be an animal if you choose. I was given a conscience, and a thought process, something animals arent gifted with.


I have every business and right to make any statement I want, whether you like it or not.

My statements have NOTHING to do with where I get my meat, if you actually read it. I said most people HERE do raise their meat humanely and give it a good life and dispatch it humanely. How you ever turned it to "you have no business commenting if you dont kill your own meat", is worthy of a Romneyflop. 

And I am sorry, but human beings are animals, whether you like THAT or not, and it doesn't make you any better than another to have what you call a conscience. You gave yourself the role , no one else did.

By the way, please show me where animals have no thought process. If you can actually say that, you have no clue about animals.


----------



## Guest

I often think my thought processes are above the average persons, then I come back to reality and see that I *AM* the average person. Glad I don't believe in my own arrogance.


----------



## doodlemom

When I hang out with my chicken I don't want to eat chicken. We've agreed we both like chicken from the grocery store though. She has an advantage that she is the friendly smart one that lays faithfully unlike all those other chickens she hangs out with.


----------



## foxfiredidit

CB & SG, as I recall, you two thought it might be a good idea to get together and go kill something and eat it, maybe a rabbit or chicken. As it were, to be in a controlled environment just for the experience. What ever became of that idea? I think it was part of that thread where CB took so much flak for setting his pet rabbit (from hell) free in the wilds of some park along a river there around NYC. Did y'all ever do the deed? I guess its too late this year what with the election and all, to get in a reality check.


----------



## Shygal

No, we were going to raise turkeys and butcher them, to learn how and because I wasnt sure I could do it. I couldnt afford to get turkeys this year


----------



## foxfiredidit

When I was in high school, I worked part time in a slaughter house that served a large privately owned grocery store. On the weekend we killed all the cows and hogs and got them ready for processing through the meat market. To say it wasn't a bother wouldn't be true, because at 17 y.o. I really liked farm animals. I worked there for 2 years. I hated to see them go, and wouldn't you know it, they gave me the 22 rifle. We used everything including the hides that were salted and stacked away in cold storage for the leather truck that came once a month. I really hated killing the goats, as around the 4th of July the owners would always want them bled out while alive. They said it made the meat better. A goat makes a really pitiful sound as it dies like that. I guess that's one reason, if the truth were known, why I don't keep livestock, and mainly rely on wild deer, fish, turkey and quail. I buy some stuff from the grocery stores but not much. I like to think that with the way I hunt, its natural selection although it is controlled in a way I guess. At least I didn't raise it from a baby and I don't know its personality. I'm not sure just how "self-aware" animals are. I've never seen a wild one act like it felt sorry for itself. But a clean kill is humane, no matter the purpose and method used. Once dead if the hide, feathers or fur is useful and theres a way to use it, it would be good to do that. I won't ever stop hunting until I get too old to do it. I hope that when I meet my end, I will go out as well as all the things I have killed in my life (with the exception of a couple or three).


----------



## Shygal

Yeah, the personality thing would be hard for me too. I dont have a problem with hunting, and using the animal , eating it, etc.


----------



## Fowler

I wonder what humans taste like, we have way too many of them.


----------



## Tommyice

Two words Fowler...........Soylent Green


----------



## WhyNot

doodlemom said:


> Mink was re-fed to the mink, but they should have withheld the brains=mad mink. Rabbit fur coats were the only fur I ever owned and I've eaten every rabbit I've ever skinned.


Not sure how every mink farm is run, but there is one in my home town up north and it has been there for about 50 years or so. The man that has owned it the last 25 years is a pretty good friend of mine, very smart guy from Sweden.

I don't know how it was done before he got there, but at his farm he raises several thousand mink per year as well as a few hundred fox. They do not butcher alive, the pelts go to the pelt people, the carcass goes to a place where they process the meat into animal feeds and the bones into bone meal, and mink oil is used in hypo-allergenic lotions and stuff. They gather the manure like you would on any farm and it is composted right there and people buy that as well. It would be a really silly business move to do anything else other than something like that.

Mink do stink very much especially during breeding season. You can smell a mink ranch hand a mile away during breeding season...no matter how many soaks and scrubs they take.


----------



## elkhound

Fowler said:


> I wonder what humans taste like, we have way too many of them.





Tommyice said:


> Two words Fowler...........Soylent Green


you two are sickos....i like it.....:whistlin::teehee:


----------



## Tommyice

A YouTube just for you Elk 
[YOUTUBE]dk01eeKMD_I[/YOUTUBE]

Sorry for slowing down the thread.


----------



## elkhound

they tried flying away with me.but i kept rolling around on the floor with my hand in the cookie jar so they landed and put me off....said something i wasnt worth the hassle....lol


----------



## elkhound

your a naughty gurl slowing down threads with your hauty taughty videos....lol


----------



## littlejoe

Shygal said:


> I have every business and right to make any statement I want, whether you like it or not.
> 
> My statements have NOTHING to do with where I get my meat, if you actually read it. I said most people HERE do raise their meat humanely and give it a good life and dispatch it humanely. How you ever turned it to "you have no business commenting if you dont kill your own meat", is worthy of a Romneyflop.
> 
> .


Sure it does. I just wondered how deep in hyprocisy you stood?


----------



## Shygal

littlejoe said:


> Sure it does. I just wondered how deep in hyprocisy you stood?


ah, no it doesn't. It has nothing at all to do with what I do, when I say a lot of people HERE do something. I'm sorry you can't seem to grasp that. People HERE that raise their own food and dispatch it humanely does not mean I do, it does not mean I don't either. it has nothing to DO with me. You are grasping at straws. A lot of people here don't do it and have opinions on everything, just as I have the right to have an opinion on something.

I don't think you know what hypocrisy really means. When I say I won't condone something, what exactly does that mean to you? Am I telling you NOT to do it or are you insinuating that because that is what you want it to mean? I think you are completely mistaken in your arrogance regarding nature, but I am not the one that will have to answer for that. :shrug:

Seriously, give it up, you are making yourself look bad, no matter how many times elkhound likes your posts.


----------



## Fowler

LOL!!! ya'll are getting spanked by a gurl...it's kind a like watching jello wrestling. 
There's no winners or losers, just good clean edible fun....LOL


----------



## elkhound

Fowler said:


> LOL!!! ya'll are getting spanked by a gurl...it's kind a like watching jello wrestling.
> There's no winners or losers, just good clean edible fun....LOL


i sang the sunshine song to her in the other thread and i still cant get her to PM me ....lol


----------



## elkhound

*like...*


dear joe....i just want to say thanks for all the hardwork you do in raising your cattle and other products.i know its hard protecting your investments from coyotes,skunks and other predators .but if not for farmers and ranchers feeding people that are not 100% self reliant we would starve and die.you keep us and our family fed.our children have milk because of dairymen...beef because of cattlemen...bread because of grain producers....fish and seafood because of fishermen....i thank you all for the job you do.


p.s. i even thank those who trained as nurses so if i get hurt they can help me heal and get back out there in the places i belong.


----------



## Fowler

You should have lit a poo bag on her porch, that always makes them come out....LOL


----------



## elkhound

my like button is mine and its my right to choose where and how i use it.i use it to support my friends and like minded folks and to say thanks for taking the time out of your busy day to post.


----------



## elkhound

Fowler said:


> You should have lit a poo bag on her porch, that always makes them come out....LOL


thats a waste i need it on my garden to grow stuff.


----------



## doodlemom

Shygal said:


> No, we were going to raise turkeys and butcher them, to learn how and because I wasnt sure I could do it. I couldnt afford to get turkeys this year


Watch Meyers hatchery. They just had a turkey chick sale a few weeks ago.


----------



## City Bound

The killing chickens idea fizzled. Shy and I live very far away from each other. It is still an option though.

doodle, your vest sounds very nice. one of my goals is to make a vest from the rabbit fur o the rabbits I will eventually slaughter. I figure on really cold days I could wear the vest under my goose down parker. A vest under a jacket would be good beause it would trap more heat around the chest and underarms.


----------



## City Bound

Shy, this is my rabbit goal: breed the rabbits, raise the rabbits, slaughter the rabbits, use the blood for the garden, make rabbit foot key chains with the feet, cook and eat the rabbit, simmer the carcass remains to make stock for rabbit noodle soup ( I have made this before and it is good), find a use for the let over bones, then save the belts in a box until I have enough to make a vest and a hat. In the mean while I would be getting a lot of rabbit poop for the garden.


----------



## Shygal

Rabbit poop is great for the garden


----------



## City Bound

I know. I have a five gallon bucket full of it. 

SOme people say it is not such a good idea, but I compost the soiled paper rom the rabbit cage once in a while.


----------



## newfieannie

i used it for years when i had rabbits. i had no problems. i dont have any now and swear by sheep manure. ~Georgia.


----------



## RuffusWI

WOW! Just got back from "up north",, This thread really took off! Hills and valleys!
I'm not in the mood to argue about our screwed up environment , animal over population and wildlife diseases. They must be controlled ,if ya got to kill a critter might as well use it. Fur is a renewable resource. AGAIN I'm reading about liberal "feelings" and not thinking. 
No internet up nort eh! Kinda like it. It snowed sat. morning !!


----------



## Fowler

Humans carry diseases too and their over populated, just sayin..LOL


----------



## shanzone2001

RuffusWI said:


> I'm reading about liberal "feelings" and not thinking.


Good one!

(They tend to do that, though!)


----------



## Shygal

shanzone2001 said:


> Good one!
> 
> (They tend to do that, though!)


Sorry, no. The conservatives are the ones that do that, they only think of themselves and how everything can benefit them.

Liberals think about everyone and everything.

Don't like being categorized? Neither do I. People are people, and I am really tired of the labels and the "us vs them" mentality. Someone thinks different than you, lets label them and act like they are a lesser sort of being.


----------



## shanzone2001

Shygal said:


> Sorry, no. The conservatives are the ones that do that, they only think of themselves and how everything can benefit them.
> 
> Liberals think about everyone and everything.
> 
> Don't like being categorized? Neither do I. People are people, and I am really tired of the labels and the "us vs them" mentality. Someone thinks different than you, lets label them and act like they are a lesser sort of being.


Lighten up, Shy. Why do you have to always take everything so seriously and go to the next level? Not everything needs to be a debate or argument. Sometimes folks just write stuff in a light-hearted way...just innocent bantering.


----------



## Guest

Exactly. That's why people from the south just smile and smile when somebody refers to us as ignorant, uneducated, *******, racist, inbred child molesters. Because we know its all '' just innocent lighthearted banter".


----------



## shanzone2001

Something like that.....right.

Seriously, lighten up, Folks!! I thought we were friends here. Why are so many people on the defense lately?


----------



## Guest

Nobody's ever considered me a liberal, but I reckon they're people, same as folks from NC. And as such, probably don't need to be denigrated because of their political leanings, just as we don't need to be denigrated because of our physical location. How y'all reckon "equal" works??


----------



## shanzone2001

Here we go again.......


----------



## doodlemom

zong said:


> Exactly. That's why people from the south just smile and smile when somebody refers to us as ignorant, uneducated, *******, racist, inbred child molesters. Because we know its all '' just innocent lighthearted banter".


You smoking crackers again?


----------



## Guest

I got one of those high tone fancy champagne buzzes. That's when you shake up your hootch real good before drinking it. But, you know, for the 15 years or so I've been on the internet, I've seen that characterization of southerners. And, I've seen equally stupid characterizations of liberals, conservatives, northerners, and so on. I just don't get the whole idea of caricaturing people. I have never seen that as lighthearted. I see it more along the line of being too mentally lazy to try to understand any viewpoint except your own. If you don't believe it, go over to the politics forum. people on each side demonizing everybody on the other side. See if there's any actual thinking going on over there. Do we got to do that too? Aren't we a cut above that sort of drivel??


----------



## Shygal

shanzone2001 said:


> Lighten up, Shy. Why do you have to always take everything so seriously and go to the next level? Not everything needs to be a debate or argument. Sometimes folks just write stuff in a light-hearted way...just innocent bantering.


Because I hear it all the time everywhere, facebook, here, everywhere. And it might be lighthearted bantering to the one saying it, but to the one hearing it, it gets real old real fast. and a lot of people DO mean it. Im just real tired of hearing it because I believe differently than others.


----------



## FarmboyBill

AND, When someone SAYS they BELIEVE it, I believe they believe that I should believe that also, Just cause they believe it.

Course

Thats just what I believe lol.


----------



## doodlemom

Believe: be,bee,eel,eve,lie,lib.....yup libs lie.


----------



## Shygal

FarmboyBill said:


> AND, When someone SAYS they BELIEVE it, I believe they believe that I should believe that also, Just cause they believe it.
> 
> Course
> 
> Thats just what I believe lol.


Ive never told anyone they should believe what I do, or do what I do. Yet most people seem to think I do when I say that I would never do whatever it is they are posting about


----------



## Guest

Thats a little convoluted, but I like it. See?? it shows I "like" it.


----------



## Guest

doodlemom said:


> Believe: be,bee,eel,eve,lie,lib.....yup libs lie.


Believe: Evil bile, vile bee lie. dam bees. I dreamed I was in Uzbekistan, as alive as you and me.


----------



## doodlemom

zong said:


> Believe: Evil bile, vile bee lie. dam bees. I dreamed I was in Uzbekistan, as alive as you and me.


I did bee live vibe.


----------



## RuffusWI

When it comes down to the Libs vs Cons, the thing is- Libs can't leave things alone. If Someone doesn't fit into there world view then it must be changed ,stopped or regulated. How about leave us alone? Just stay in your disney,touchy,feely world and keep your mouths shut????
As for Southerners------- I'm a Northern ******* and proud of it! I can do most of what good ol' boys down south but in the snow! LOL My family tree does branch. Sorry couldn't resist. LOL


----------



## Raeven

Enough. I&#8217;m an unapologetic liberal, and I will happily have any FACTUAL discussion with any self-designated conservative anytime, any day. I believe what I believe because it is entirely fact-based. My personal observation is that self-designated conservatives spend a lot of time hurling insults and name calling rather than garnering facts that support their positions. Another oft-employed tactic is to denigrate a liberal source of factual information &#8211; without promulgating any of their own in response. I&#8217;ve drawn my own conclusions about whose positions are, in truth, &#8220;fact based.&#8221;

I am registered independent, but that is because I have never party-affiliated and the Democratic Party isn&#8217;t nearly liberal enough for me these days. But please note: This liberal is probably better versed in homesteading practices than many of you who post on this forum, walked the walk more than just talked the talk; has never accepted or needed government assistance, having worked as many as 3 jobs simultaneously (I was capable of it) but doesn&#8217;t begrudge those who do; owns guns but supports gun control. I know a lot of other super liberal people. NONE of them are as liberals are frequently depicted on this forum. In short, you&#8217;ve manufactured a comfortable caricature in your heads about what liberals are, and you don&#8217;t know jack.

So stop with the casual barbs. It&#8217;s rude. I bite my tongue a thousand times a day on this forum. Maybe you could extend the same courtesy.


----------



## Guest

As you know, I am NOT a liberal. Yet, I think everybody has the right to an opinion, a viewpoint, and so on. I hope that don't make me a liberal. I'm fiscally conservative, but I believe people's lives are their business, not mine. I don't know why this picking has to continue, and why some people are so arrogant they believe they have the right to tell others to "keep your mouth shut" On behalf of intelligent conservatives everywhere, I'd like to apologize for loutishness. And now we have the answer to a previous question, "What is a *******?"


----------



## Fowler

~hiding behind Zong~ he said our family tree doesnt branch too, he equally discriminates.


----------



## doodlemom

It's times like these I wish I didn't poach the popcorn eating deer.


----------



## Darren

Around these parts I'm considered an equal opportunity offender. I like liberals for breakfast, lunch and dinner. And occasionally for a snack. I'd love to have a sit down with you Raeven, Not to change your mind, but to see if you could change mine.

Just remember I'm from West Virginia. One of our ex-governors got upset about a T shirt that said everything in West Virginia was relative. Claimed it was bad publicity for the state. Fact is often stranger and funnier than fiction. 

As inbred as this county is, I figured I couldn't possibly be related to anyone until I talked to the neighbor across the way. We're both related through one of the more infamous families in the state. That T shirt was right.


----------



## wyld thang

Raeven said:


> Enough. Iâm an unapologetic liberal, and I will happily have any FACTUAL discussion with any self-designated conservative anytime, any day. I believe what I believe because it is entirely fact-based. My personal observation is that self-designated conservatives spend a lot of time hurling insults and name calling rather than garnering facts that support their positions. Another oft-employed tactic is to denigrate a liberal source of factual information â without promulgating any of their own in response. Iâve drawn my own conclusions about whose positions are, in truth, âfact based.â
> 
> I am registered independent, but that is because I have never party-affiliated and the Democratic Party isnât nearly liberal enough for me these days. But please note: This liberal is probably better versed in homesteading practices than many of you who post on this forum, walked the walk more than just talked the talk; has never accepted or needed government assistance, having worked as many as 3 jobs simultaneously (I was capable of it) but doesnât begrudge those who do; owns guns but supports gun control. I know a lot of other super liberal people. NONE of them are as liberals are frequently depicted on this forum. In short, youâve manufactured a comfortable caricature in your heads about what liberals are, and you donât know jack.
> 
> So stop with the casual barbs. Itâs rude. I bite my tongue a thousand times a day on this forum. Maybe you could extend the same courtesy.


I back up everything Raeven says. You get out in the world and get to know people different from you without telling them what to be you might be pleasantly surprised. 

You know what? out here in hippy liberal lala land the talk now about the election is deep concern about the divisiveness and people are keeping their views to themselves and focusing on COMMUNITY. I totally support that.

Ha, try telling people you're an anarchist--they think you blow up bulldozers. 

Excuse me, there's a tree I need to go hump. Raeven, wanna threesome?


----------



## Raeven

Darren... I'd be completely up for that discussion. I may or may not be able to change your mind, but I'm certain we'd learn a lot from each other and find more common ground than most people think is possible.

I've had many, many lively, fruitful and informative discussions with conservative folks, with two provisos: One, stick to the facts, and two, keep it mutually respectful. Differences always come down to values, which are a matter of choice. No one's wrong and no one's right. They're just different. Can't change that.

LOL, I agree fact is often stranger and funnier than fiction. I worked in courtrooms for a long time, and I assure you -- it's true.


----------



## Raeven

wyld thang said:


> Excuse me, there's a tree I need to go hump. Raeven, wanna threesome?


LOL, move ovah, sissttaahh!!


----------



## doodlemom

RuffusWI said:


> When it comes down to the Libs vs Cons, the thing is- Libs can't leave things alone. If Someone doesn't fit into there world view then it must be changed ,stopped or regulated. How about leave us alone? Just stay in your disney,touchy,feely world and keep your mouths shut????
> As for Southerners------- I'm a Northern ******* and proud of it! I can do most of what good ol' boys down south but in the snow! LOL My family tree does branch. Sorry couldn't resist. LOL











I might be a northern *******.


----------



## Guest

Around here, we call that a "cat"


----------



## doodlemom

Local weather channel DD caught the latest forecast.


----------



## doodlemom

Grandma needs a space ship for the weather.


----------



## sustainabilly

Shygal said:


> Because I hear it all the time ...here, everywhere. And it might be lighthearted bantering to the one saying it, but to the one hearing it, it gets real old real fast. and a lot of people DO mean it. Im just real tired of hearing it because I believe differently than others.


How do you think I feel? When I came here half y'all thought I was a woman and the other half probably thought I was gay. Huh! A gay woman. I should be so lucky.

An me, all the while I'm just an anarchistic, independently thinking heteroconserving lots of baked goods liberally.

Labels...Like me! NOT Like me! Sheesh!


----------



## sustainabilly

Grandma, What big teeth you have!


----------



## Fowler

sustainabilly said:


> How do you think I feel? When I came here half y'all thought I was a woman and the other half probably thought I was gay. Huh! A gay woman. I should be so lucky.
> 
> An me, all the while I'm just an anarchistic, independently thinking heteroconserving lots of baked goods liberally.
> 
> Labels...Like me! NOT Like me! Sheesh!




You're not a gay woman?...and I had the hots for you. Jezzzz why dont somebody tell me these things.


----------



## sustainabilly

Fowler said:


> You're not a gay woman?...and I had the hots for you. Jezzzz why dont somebody tell me these things.


I'm pretty good at faking. "Sides I know the answer to there's only two sure things in life...death 'n Texas.


----------



## wyld thang

sustainabilly said:


> How do you think I feel? When I came here half y'all thought I was a woman and the other half probably thought I was gay. Huh! A gay woman. I should be so lucky.
> 
> An me, all the while I'm just an anarchistic, independently thinking heteroconserving lots of baked goods liberally.
> 
> Labels...Like me! NOT Like me! Sheesh!


HT people thought I was a man for a long time...till I put up my tomato pic


----------



## doodlemom

zong said:


> Around here, we call that a "cat"


I call it a cat on a sidewalk.


----------



## Terri in WV

Well, I just found out that I'm a lesbian. Imagine my surprise after 48 years!

I was reading the local Topix and they posted that wearing a thumb ring and purple clothing lets others know your status. And here I thought I was wearing them because I like rings and the color purple.

I guess what they say is true-you learn something new every day. Never heard it said that it'd be useful info though....:shrug:


----------



## Tommyice

Thumb rings and wearing purple. Huh? Did the article state what the uniform for heterosexuals is?


----------



## Terri in WV

It wasn't an article, but something that was posted on Topix about the rings. When I put that I wore a thumb ring it was because I liked rings, I got more info on the workings of the gay community.

Uniforms? I guess no thumb rings and don't wear purple in a known area, unless you want the attention.:happy2:


----------



## Raeven

Terri in WV said:


> It wasn't an article, but something that was posted on Topix about the rings. When I put that I wore a thumb ring it was because I liked rings, I got more info on the workings of the gay community.
> 
> Uniforms? I guess no thumb rings and don't wear purple in a known area, unless you want the attention.:happy2:


Terri... reminds me of the first time my stepdaughter visited my husband and me from Australia and we took her to Disneyland. She was 12, a young 12 at that. As a special present to us, she picked out a car antenna ornament and offered it with such joy... we left that flippin' rainbow ornament on the car for 2 years. I received many undeserved arm pumps and upraised thumbs from women driving adjacent vehicles.


----------



## City Bound

Raeven said:


> Enough. I&#8217;m an unapologetic liberal, and I will happily have any FACTUAL discussion with any self-designated conservative anytime, any day. I believe what I believe because it is entirely fact-based. My personal observation is that self-designated conservatives spend a lot of time hurling insults and name calling rather than garnering facts that support their positions. Another oft-employed tactic is to denigrate a liberal source of factual information &#8211; without promulgating any of their own in response. I&#8217;ve drawn my own conclusions about whose positions are, in truth, &#8220;fact based.&#8221;
> 
> I am registered independent, but that is because I have never party-affiliated and the Democratic Party isn&#8217;t nearly liberal enough for me these days. But please note: This liberal is probably better versed in homesteading practices than many of you who post on this forum, walked the walk more than just talked the talk; has never accepted or needed government assistance, having worked as many as 3 jobs simultaneously (I was capable of it) but doesn&#8217;t begrudge those who do; owns guns but supports gun control. I know a lot of other super liberal people. NONE of them are as liberals are frequently depicted on this forum. In short, you&#8217;ve manufactured a comfortable caricature in your heads about what liberals are, and you don&#8217;t know jack.
> 
> So stop with the casual barbs. It&#8217;s rude. I bite my tongue a thousand times a day on this forum. Maybe you could extend the same courtesy.


I was on the fence or a long time until California, Mass, new york state and new york city were all going bankrupt from liberal leadership and that was the only confirmation I needed. Back when I was kid the battle cry or the left was that if they could only get power and do things their way that they could make a perect world of peace and prosperity ( I believed this also.) but then when they finally got the power they ran the states they control almost into the ground and obama has almost run the country into the ground. 

I do not hate liberals and I do not consider myself a conservative, but the facts are that liberalism and socialism do not work ffor america. The majority of the conlicts and budget issues in DC are over socialistic programs that are really not working in reality. They sound good and many of us would love to live in a world with less of a weight on our backs but in realty they do not hold water. Social Security is an example of a socialistic program that has created a great deal of conlict over its lifetime and it is a program that struggles to work.

I believe in welare and food stamps for people. I support medicaid and medicare. We need a safety net in our country. The problem with the system is that many people on the system do not need the services and they are just in the system sucking up benifits that they really do not need or deserve.
If there was less fraud in the system then taxes could be lowered (making most americans happy) and social welare programs could still exist for the people who sincerely need the help (making those in true need happy).

I would never want to see some handicap kid crawling on the street begging because he has no one and nothing. 

I think what many americans object to is being fforced to become wards of the state simply because some big headed persons come along and think that that the gov can do a better job running everyones life. We like to be free and not taxed into a corner. To get an idea what I am talking about google Mayor bloomburg in new york city. Thank goodness we have checks and balances in our system to prevent any person or group from having too much power over others because if bloomburg had his way we would all be living under his thumb or in jail for drinking a big gulp coke.


----------



## wyld thang

Terri in WV said:


> Well, I just found out that I'm a lesbian. Imagine my surprise after 48 years!
> 
> I was reading the local Topix and they posted that wearing a thumb ring and purple clothing lets others know your status. And here I thought I was wearing them because I like rings and the color purple.
> 
> I guess what they say is true-you learn something new every day. Never heard it said that it'd be useful info though....:shrug:


omg, this is funny...random googlage

I wear two thumb rings, a silver spoon ring on my left thumb, and a silver nw native american salmon on my right thumb. I wear a lot of purple. Guess I'm double-dammed ha. I love it...I get a lot of compliments on the salmon ring on my RIGHT thumb haha 

remember Dickies overalls? I had a purple pair in 1981

in any case, I will have more fun than ever wearing thumb rings and purple.

*****************
Left or Right
Thumb rings can be worn on the right or left hand. When worn on the left hand, a thumb ring reflects a persons inner thoughts, beliefs, and feelings. When worn on the right, a thumb ring signifies conscious and logical thoughts.

Sexual Orientation
Individuals who are homosexual wear thumb rings to classify their sexual orientation and relationship status. A ring placed on the left hand indicates that an individual is in a relationship, while a ring placed on the right means that they are single.

Historically, women wore their husband's wedding band on their thumb when their husbands were dead or had been sent off to battle.

Misconceptions
The Internet abounds with rumors that if a woman wears a ring on one thumb, it indicates her sexual orientation, and if she wears it on the other thumb, it means she is open to certain sexual experimentation. However, even if these rumors were once true, they no longer apply.

Sponsored Links
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10 Ugly Mistakes Women Make That Ruins Any Chances Of A Relationship
CatchHimAndKeepHim.com

Significance
The thumb is associated with personal willpower, independence and pride in oneself. The left thumb is symbolic of the subconscious mind, while the right indicates the conscious mind.

Palmistry
In palmistry, women are often encouraged to wear a ring on their thumb as a way to draw in positive energy and increase assertiveness.

Fashion
Generally, the thumb ring is worn by women today simply as a fashion statement, just like any other ring worn on any other finger.

&#10145; Rings for Men
In earlier times, thumb rings were used only by upper class men to signify the social status of the wearer. Higher the status and the rank of the wearer, more ornate and heavy his thumb ring was. In archery, large rings were worn by men in order to shield their skin against injury. In the medieval times, these rings were worn by doctors for by those learning medicine.

&#10145; Rings for Women
According to modern concepts, women usually wear thumb rings to signify their independence and freedom. In certain parts of the world, a woman wearing a thumb ring in her right thumb symbolized that she was open to sexual experimentation. There is neither proof conforming this rumor nor it is applicable any more. Nowadays, women wear thumb rings more as fashion than for its meaning.

&#10145; Modern Symbolism
Since long time, it is believed that thumb rings are associated with free will, independence and will power. It is also believed that they symbolize strength and individuality. Interestingly, thumb ring's significance is even found in palmistry, where it symbolizes rationalism and individual freedom. One of the fun fact associated with this ring is that the bigger the ring a person wears, greater the freedom he is trying to express.

&#10145; Thumb Rings and Sexual Orientation
Recently, there is widespread hearsay about thumb rings and its relevance with the wearer's sexual orientation. It is rumored that these rings are worn only by homosexuals. A person who wears a ring in his right thumb is said to be into a same-sex relationship. On the contrary in some parts if the world, it is considered that wearing a ring in right thumb signifies that the person is single. Ring in the left thumb means that a person is into a serious relationship.

History of Thumb Rings
An Egyptian mummy of a woman wearing a thumb ring was discovered which proved that these rings date back to the ancient Egyptian era. Even in ancient times, these rings signified different things. They were usually worn to ward off evil spirits or diseases. If worn for this reason, they were worn by both, men and women. Secondly, women would wear their dead husband's ring on their thumb to preserve his memory. Reference of thumb rings is also found in Shakespeare's plays. In the medieval times, thumb rings symbolized love, commitment, will power, etc. However, as times passed significance of these rings changed drastically.
Read more at Buzzle: Thumb Ring Significance


----------



## WhyNot

OMG I did not know any of this!! So...I bet when I step out of a hot pink truck, with a purple dress on and have a ring on nearly every finger, one ear lobe pierced 3 times and one pierced once.....I'm confusing everyone, this explains my family and their stereotyping on facebook.

Well...keep on being confused I guess LOL....now I'm REALLY gonna feck with all ya'll (meaning the world). Knowledge is power...and it's really easy to mess with people that think they have secret knowledge.


----------



## Fowler

OMG that's why so many women have been hitting on me!! But I love my thumb ring. I use to like rainbows too, gays wreck everything...LOL


----------



## Shygal

RuffusWI said:


> When it comes down to the Libs vs Cons, the thing is- Libs can't leave things alone. If Someone doesn't fit into there world view then it must be changed ,stopped or regulated. How about leave us alone? Just stay in your disney,touchy,feely world and keep your mouths shut????


Then you know absolutely nothing about liberals, and you are an extremely rude person. This is why the country is going to you know where, everyone has to divide everybody. 

You have no idea what you are talking about.


----------



## WhyNot

Hmmm....this may also explain a lot of the comments when I end up stopping at the get n go in my bondage bracelets and my new embroidered choloroform hanky. It's all coming together now.


----------



## WhyNot

Actually...politically....after being in Sweden as long as I was and speaking with most people there...Socialism looks pretty good.


----------



## Prismseed

The tricky them about socialism is here we haven't done it right (yet anyway). Combine that with a large opposition to the concept no usefull project will make it through our government process.

Then again seems many things the government gets involved in they can't do it right. So maybe it is best left to be independently developed.

We need to stop being so all or nothing. Let people be socialist if they want, offer a reasonable system of support. Don't mandate everyone be socialist and don't take anything from the non-socialists. If socialism is that great it should come into it's own in time by choice.


----------



## WhyNot

Prismseed said:


> The tricky them about socialism is here we haven't done it right (yet anyway). Combine that with a large opposition to the concept no usefull project will make it through our government process.
> 
> Then again seems many things the government gets involved in they can't do it right. So maybe it is best left to be independently developed.
> 
> We need to stop being so all or nothing. Let people be socialist if they want, offer a reasonable system of support. Don't mandate everyone be socialist and don't take anything from the non-socialists. If socialism is that great it should come into it's own in time by choice.


Interesting comments.

I figure it this way...if we can't actually be organized enough to have true democracy or true capitalism, then we certainly wouldn't make it to any sort of socialism, genuine or hapless...erm...haphazard.

We most likely will never make it to a standard of socialism because it would require more social responsibility for our government to exude...and, in the same vein, most people don't know what it is in any form other than insidious...just as most people don't know what democracy is, muchless the form that we have now.

People squeal, squabble and fight over assumed violations of individuality...instead of rights collectively because...most people are selfish in one way or another. That is a common denominator in our American culture, brought on for various and even some upright reasons. But when no one changes, nothing changes. It cannot all be blamed on those we assume buffoonery and shenanigan's in washington....we all must take our individual blame and responsibility because that is the sole reason we all *****...individuality. That, to me is being all or nothing. Claim it all...or claim nothing. However, that is not an indicitive American quality.


----------



## City Bound

pris, I doubt that would work because it all boils down to money. Most people resent parting with their money and the more the gov takes the more they resent the gov.


----------



## RuffusWI

Shygal said:


> Then you know absolutely nothing about liberals, and you are an extremely rude person. This is why the country is going to you know where, everyone has to divide everybody.
> 
> You have no idea what you are talking about.


Again ,when a liberal is called out, the name calling begins.
FYI- I come from Wisconsin the birth place of "progressivism". And it is a mental disease. The reason the country is falling apart is the lack of moral character and Socialism is not the answer. You cannot force equality,financial or social. That is not in human nature.
I listened to a great sermon on the radio and the pastor hit it on the head. We as a people have had it too good. To much money. Think about it. Very few struggle to survive.Not like in the 30's. We have time to "think". And that is dangerous. America's financial world will come to a end in the near future. And those who survive will be the one's of moral character and drive.


----------



## Prismseed

Refresh my memory.

Jesus taught with love and parables. Not judgement and insults.... right?

Some of your points are decent Ruffus. The manner of your delivery however is not.


----------



## WhyNot

RuffusWI said:


> I listened to a great sermon on the radio and the pastor hit it on the head. We as a people have had it too good. To much money. Think about it. Very few struggle to survive.Not like in the 30's. We have time to "think". And that is dangerous. America's financial world will come to a end in the near future. And those who survive will be the one's of moral character and drive.


What you propose as the answer is actually Socialism, while you also deny it.

I know us Cheeseheads are quirky, but there is a line between quirky and the rest I'm not stooping for, you make it too easy. I also think you have found your answer as to why people, or women, are hard to find that share a mindset such as yours. Which, you are free to have, of course and I wish you luck with it all.


----------



## Evons hubby

Prismseed said:


> The tricky them about socialism is here we haven't done it right (yet anyway). Combine that with a large opposition to the concept no usefull project will make it through our government process.
> 
> Then again seems many things the government gets involved in they can't do it right. So maybe it is best left to be independently developed.
> 
> We need to stop being so all or nothing. Let people be socialist if they want, offer a reasonable system of support. Don't mandate everyone be socialist and don't take anything from the non-socialists. If socialism is that great it should come into it's own in time by choice.


I see a huge problem here.... In order for socialism to "thrive" the socialists need "other peoples money"... therefor requiring the mandate to take from everyone... particularly those who have more to give which are notoriously "non socialist". Just look at our system today... the socialists take from which group? The very wealthiest... in order to "give" to the poor... remember nearly half of our countries citizens contribute NO federal income tax while the top 15 percent income group provides over 80 percent of the revenue collected.


----------



## wyld thang

the problem with this whole socialism fight is that a lot of people on both sides think it's all about MONEY. You can't eat money(or at least live long, though it would count as fiber I guess), it won't keep you warm(unless you have a buttload to burn, or stuff in your clothes as insulation).

If you approach the concept from the point of resources, need, sustainability, generousity, input/output instead of merely throwing money at it, thinking of a human being=how much money they produce, then it becomes a whole different conversation.


----------



## WhyNot

I didn't know there was a socialism fight. I also haven't seen any examples of working socialism in in this thread except for my peripheral mention of Sweden...hence...didn't realize there was a fight. Anyway...I'm not employed with the task of educating others in politics...I leave that to....individual critical thinking, which should be taught since it's not a device we all are born with.


----------



## Shygal

RuffusWI said:


> Again ,when a liberal is called out, the name calling begins.
> FYI- I come from Wisconsin the birth place of "progressivism". And it is a mental disease. The reason the country is falling apart is the lack of moral character and Socialism is not the answer. You cannot force equality,financial or social. That is not in human nature.
> I listened to a great sermon on the radio and the pastor hit it on the head. We as a people have had it too good. To much money. Think about it. Very few struggle to survive.Not like in the 30's. We have time to "think". And that is dangerous. America's financial world will come to a end in the near future. And those who survive will be the one's of moral character and drive.


Um, telling you you are a rude person is not name calling. It's telling you you are rude, which you are. And you still have to label people. 

By the way, please show me where you think you have "called me out" ound: You don't even know what that means, obviously.

You have no idea whether Im liberal, conservative, socialist , libertarian, NONE. But you go ahead and act condescending , labeling people, saying "They" this and "They" that. 
I don't think you are making too many friends here.


----------



## Evons hubby

wyld thang said:


> the problem with this whole socialism fight is that a lot of people on both sides think it's all about MONEY. You can't eat money(or at least live long, though it would count as fiber I guess), it won't keep you warm(unless you have a buttload to burn, or stuff in your clothes as insulation).
> 
> If you approach the concept from the point of resources, need, sustainability, generousity, input/output instead of merely throwing money at it, thinking of a human being=how much money they produce, then it becomes a whole different conversation.


Ok, so lets replace the word "money" with "resources" in my previous statement to Prismseed. I still really cant see how socialism is going to work unless you take resources from those people who have/produce them. Socialism, by its very nature, pretty much requires everyone to play in the game.


----------



## Prismseed

Actually it doesn't. There are intentional communities all across the country that function by working as an equal team. They just have a business for revenue.


----------



## Evons hubby

Prismseed said:


> Actually it doesn't. There are intentional communities all across the country that function by working as an equal team. They just have a business for revenue.


Ok, are you saying that these intentional communities exempt a fairly large portion of their team from contributing to the community effort.... while providing them with the resources collected by their business enterprise? How would this work on a national level?


----------



## wyld thang

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, so lets replace the word "money" with "resources" in my previous statement to Prismseed. I still really cant see how socialism is going to work unless you take resources from those people who have/produce them. Socialism, by its very nature, pretty much requires everyone to play in the game.


you're still approaching the question from a capitalistic platform. people who have commandeered the resources, stockpiling them to make a buck(really what other reason is there to garner more than you can consume?)

when things in nature get out of balance, too much somewhere (too much fuel built up in the forest floor, too much dirt on the angle of repose, too much water coming down), something's gotta give. and it ALWAYS does. 

sure I abhor the thigns done in the name of socialism--Pol Pot, Stalin, etc. But there are just as many horrible things done across the spectrum--Hitler, the Inquisition, witch burning, poorhouses. It is simply people with control freak issues who have to make everyone kowtow so they can feel good about themselves. 

we have evolved as a species to survive in the wild as a pack. working together. and we are not the only species to do so. somehow I think "erring" on the side of socialism--working together sharing resources sustainably-- is the better err. hoarding and amassing wealth *is* unnatural, and nature self corrects.

I'm trying to look at this whole thing objectively, with observation to the "natural order" of the world, taking out the artificial culture and techno-matrix man has built up. try as we might we are still the product of millions of years of evolution in the natural world, I think it's a dang good place to start to think about the question. throwing out the usual memes obviously goes nowhere.

I guess I'm an anarcho-deist haha


----------



## Evons hubby

wyld thang said:


> you're still approaching the question from a capitalistic platform. people who have commandeered the resources, stockpiling them to make a buck(really what other reason is there to garner more than you can consume?)


No, I am questioning how socialism works effectively on a large scale... in small communities it can and has worked fine... but once a society reaches beyond a local community... its not been shown to work well at all. The reason I "hoard" resources beyond my capacity to consume today, is so I will have them at my disposal later.... during times when I cannot produce what I need. 



wyld thang said:


> when things in nature get out of balance, too much somewhere (too much fuel built up in the forest floor, too much dirt on the angle of repose, too much water coming down), something's gotta give. and it ALWAYS does.


 And which resources are piling up in the corners of the world today... that you think may cause the next landslide, flood or forest fire? It appears to me that the worlds population is consuming them at an ever increasing rate. To the point that there are shortages in many cases. 



wyld thang said:


> I'm trying to look at this whole thing objectively, with observation to the "natural order" of the world, taking out the artificial culture and techno-matrix man has built up. try as we might we are still the product of millions of years of evolution in the natural world, I think it's a dang good place to start to think about the question. throwing out the usual memes obviously goes nowhere.


I am also trying my best to understand.... how taking the resources one person has labored to accumulate... and distributing them among others who do not is going to accomplish anything other than irritating everyone. This tends to create divisions, and hostile attitudes between people... those who are productive become angry with those who arent, those who are being supported come to expect the charity, and get angry if it isnt there. Not only do they expect the same level of care today as they were given yesterday... they will demand more tomorrow. 

Socialism ignores basic human nature. People will work together and pool resources but only when there is something in it for themselves. If a man can achieve his needs by working one day a month, why would he want to work 30 days a month and receive exactly the same pay? (be it dollars or taters.) Particularly when his neighbor who wont work even one day a month receives the same amount? Incentive is lost, the work ethic disappears and the society will eventually either starve for want of resources or they will kill one another off in a civil uprising.


----------



## Guest

Nothing indicates a lack of common sense as well as arguing with a woman.


----------



## Evons hubby

zong said:


> Nothing indicates a lack of common sense as well as arguing with a woman.


Seeking understanding is not quite the same as arguing. But then trying to understand a woman is probably pretty futile in itself.


----------



## RuffusWI

Shygal said:


> Um, telling you you are a rude person is not name calling. It's telling you you are rude, which you are. And you still have to label people.
> 
> By the way, please show me where you think you have "called me out" ound: You don't even know what that means, obviously.
> 
> You have no idea whether Im liberal, conservative, socialist , libertarian, NONE. But you go ahead and act condescending , labeling people, saying "They" this and "They" that.
> I don't think you are making too many friends here.


You are right I am a rude person at times. In public, most times I'm very polite. I respect my elders and will hold a door open for a lady. I was raised with "yes sir ,no sir' politeness.( just don't rile me) The older I get the less faith I have with mankind. I also have a short temper with the ignorant. They ---- me off. Very few people study up on the subjects in which they have opinions on,just blurt out a emotional response. I like to read and study.That's how I get my opionions. I wonder how many people have ever read the book how to achieve UTOPIA! I bet BHO has.
I was not labeling you as a person but liberals in general. If you want to be lumped in then so be it. I'm done with this circle.:duel: Let's talk about wolves! LOL:grumble:


----------



## elkhound

wyld thang said:


> you're still approaching the question from a capitalistic platform. people who have commandeered the resources, stockpiling them to make a buck(really what other reason is there to garner more than you can consume?)
> 
> when things in nature get out of balance, too much somewhere (too much fuel built up in the forest floor, too much dirt on the angle of repose, too much water coming down), something's gotta give. and it ALWAYS does.
> 
> sure I abhor the thigns done in the name of socialism--Pol Pot, Stalin, etc. But there are just as many horrible things done across the spectrum--Hitler, the Inquisition, witch burning, poorhouses. It is simply people with control freak issues who have to make everyone kowtow so they can feel good about themselves.
> 
> we have evolved as a species to survive in the wild as a pack. working together. and we are not the only species to do so. somehow I think "erring" on the side of socialism--working together sharing resources sustainably-- is the better err. hoarding and amassing wealth *is* unnatural, and nature self corrects.
> 
> I'm trying to look at this whole thing objectively, with observation to the "natural order" of the world, taking out the artificial culture and techno-matrix man has built up. try as we might we are still the product of millions of years of evolution in the natural world, I think it's a dang good place to start to think about the question. throwing out the usual memes obviously goes nowhere.
> 
> I guess I'm an anarcho-deist haha



oh lets see...exxon,walmart,bp...the truth will never be known about the gulf coast impact,halaburton,wall street,this system in place now just plain sucks.and we are trying to sell our business model to the rest of the world daily.i am guiltiy as anyone...i like tools and stuff etc.the best thing in life to me would be a true homesteading life with a wife and our daily duties were mainly focused on each others well being,our land and others around us directly.you should read Helen and Scott Nearings books.the word socialism gets tossed around some but i think in the wrong fashion.their system of life is a real good one.i wanna live a natural life .


----------



## elkhound

wyld thang...please listen to this.i dont totally agree with everything he says cause i love meat.but i liked what hes says.i dont have to have all details to agree and like and understand a person.he coulda been my friend and neighbor anytime.


[youtube]evBpwQPn8QI[/youtube]


----------



## elkhound

more about them.some consider them pioneers of the homesteading movement from the 30's.listen to the details why he was black listed and forced fromteaching.only later to be reinstated and now gets regular pats on the back.society does right by you after your dead....ha.listen what he says about credit and bankers....lol...this was filmed about 1975...ha...he seen the future and now we are in it up to our eyeballs.

p.s ruffus i will go start a thread so i dont jack your thread and post vids i am looking at.

[youtube]Czr3iJBY4z0&feature=related[/youtube]


----------



## Shygal

RuffusWI said:


> You are right I am a rude person at times. In public, most times I'm very polite. I respect my elders and will hold a door open for a lady. I was raised with "yes sir ,no sir' politeness.( just don't rile me) The older I get the less faith I have with mankind. I also have a short temper with the ignorant. They ---- me off. Very few people study up on the subjects in which they have opinions on,just blurt out a emotional response. I like to read and study.That's how I get my opionions. I wonder how many people have ever read the book how to achieve UTOPIA! I bet BHO has.
> I was not labeling you as a person but liberals in general. If you want to be lumped in then so be it. I'm done with this circle.:duel: Let's talk about wolves! LOL:grumble:


:boring:

Just dont rile you. You have a short temper. So people have to walk on eggshells around you, good to know. No wonder you havent found a like minded person.


----------



## WhyNot

The following is by David Dietz... and you can find more articles that will say similar, that Sweden's Socalist "movement" or model did help not only the country but the people. Although I found Swedish people to be much more politically and socially savy as a whole than most American individuals:

"A rising tide lifts all boats" is particularly germane for Sweden. You can physically witness the daily occurrence walking around Stockholmâs famed archipelago, but it is socially that President John F. Kennedyâs idiom rings most true in the capital of Scandinavia.

Over the past several decades, Sweden has laid a strong economic foundation by committing to economic fairness and has positioned itself as one of the worldâs strongest economies. Today, Sweden, along with the rest of Scandinavia, is among the leaders in terms of quality of life, enjoys one of the worldâs highest GDPs, and not surprisingly, continually ranks as having the happiest people on the planet.

By contrast, American exceptionalism is declining as fast are our rapidly deteriorating middle class, in large part because of policies that are geared towards benefitting solely the wealthiest in our society.

Beginning with the Reagan era, Americans have bought into a notion that big government is bad, that taxes are wrong, and that rugged individualism trumps the whatâs best for the collective society.

Socialism has become almost synonymous with evil. Consvervative critics hail Obamacare as government intrusion on our private lives and lambast the president for bludgeoning our economy into submission with overbearing regulation.

Yet Sweden is a thriving economy and society based on a government of socialist principles, higher taxes, and healthy regulations. A higher tax rate of 51.1% (nearly double that in America) is accepted not only because their salaries are adjusted accordingly but because Swedes recognize and believe in JFKs adage. 

While it may make vacationing in Sweden as an American painful on the wallet (a pizza, salad, and cider can run you $60+), the taxes and high cost of living have not negatively affected business. In fact, corporations are flocking to Stockholm. In the World Economic Forum's 2010-2011 Global Competitive Report, Sweden ranked second in the world in overall competitiveness and was predicted by Richard Florida, University of Toronto Economist and author of The Flight of the Creative Class, to become a talent magnet for the world's most purposeful workers. 

Already most Americans are familiar with numerous Swedish companies. Clothing store H&M, Volvo, Sony Ericsson Mobile, and Ikea are all of Swedish origin. Sweden is also home to a thriving entrepreneurial tech scene. Skype was founded in Stockholm, and recently during my visit, I spotted Ashton Kutcher, who was in town over the holidays to invest in the Swedish music startup Spotify.

One reason for Sweden's sound economy and predilection for creativity is the country's premier education system. Sweden has more female university graduates per capita than any other country in the world, and Swedes are considered to be among the worldâs smartest people in large part because public education is guaranteed by the state, which in turn is funded by the higher tax rate. 

Visit for a week, and you are blown away. Public transportation is efficient, the poverty so pervasive in America's big cities seems negligible by comparison, and people in general seem content (and not just because it was Christmas). Surely Sweden has it's numerous untold problems, but it's idyllic country built on a belief that the collective whole of society is stronger than the success of of an elite few.

Reaganites would have you believe that higher taxes and strict regulations and a prosperous economy are incompatible. Sweden and Scandinavia prove otherwise.

Conservatives would be right to say that Sweden's political system would not work to the same effect in the United States. One reason Swedes benefit from such a system is because of its small size. Governing a society of nine million is unquestionably easier than trying to regulate 300+ million people. That being said, it is time America gets back to the days of JFK when America and its leaders measured our country and the success of our society as a whole, and not by how much money its wealthiest made. Constantly lowering taxes, slashing critical government programs, and catering to Wall Street by dismantling regulations is not the answer. It is part of the problem. It is no coincidence that the world's strongest and most stable economies (Germany, Scandinavia, Canada, Australia) all are able to mesh social welfare with an advantageous business climate. 

If America wants to regain it's global edge and cement its economic dominance, the U.S. must look to countries like Sweden, Norway, and others as a model of how the health of society is measured by the vivacity of the middle class. In doing so we must finally accept that taxes, regulations, and government programs do not necessarily impede economic growth, but can ensure it. 

Sweden's Socialist-Based Society Can Be a Model For America

The Swedish Model - WSJ.com


----------



## Big country

Shygal said:


> Shan, I am one of those that believe that animals were put on this earth just as we were, to live and enjoy it. Yes we use them for food and most people here do raise them to have a good life, and dispatch them humanely and then use every part of the animal that can be used.
> 
> But killing a mink or fox or raccoon or whatever, just to skin them and throw the animal away? I won't ever support that.


So have you ever trapped a mouse or swatted a fly?


----------



## Guest

Pick at the smallest detail. It's an indication of your mind. Understand the bigger picture. It's an indication of your mind. Only you can influence others as to your intellectual capacity. Be careful, lest you appear a fool.


----------



## Shygal

Big country said:


> So have you ever trapped a mouse or swatted a fly?


Trapped a mouse, no actually I haven't. Swatted a fly, yes. So has everyone else. But by all means lets go to extremes and ask me if Ive ever swatted a mosquito or ran over a worm with my car or some other equally extreme notion. 

I never said I was perfect and never insinuated I was. I don't like killing the fly any more than I like killing anything. If I can let them out the window I do. If I cant, either the cats catch them or they get swatted. 
Now Im awaiting the calls of "hypocrite"


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## City Bound

what about the chance to fail or succeed based on your merit and incentive? What about the pleasure of building your own life from the ground up the way you see fit to make it? What about dreaming and making your dreams come true? Those are some great things that america offers people. 

When there is too much bureucracy people often develop an institutionalized mindset. 

Swedin is nice but have they ever produced a Walt Disney that sprinkled the world with joy and imagination, or an Edison, or a Ford? Do they constantly invent new music styles that delight and entertain the world?


----------



## City Bound

One thing that is nice about america is that if a person wants to choose to be on welare they can and if a person has the ability and wants to choose to be a billionare then they can choose that. If someone choses to be on welfare they should accept the limitations of their choice rather then looking over the fence at the billionare and lusting after the life of the billionare. It is not fare to compare the rich and the poor and then expect them to be equal. The rich and the poor are worlds apart and they do not have much in common. I am poor. I do not look at the rich and feel I deserve what they have or that they have to give me a cut of their loot. I accept that they are rich because usually they excel above other people in ways that make them more money. me, I am mediocre at best and I accept my lot in life the best I can. Sometimes we just have to accept our lot in life.


----------



## wyld thang

elkhound said:


> oh lets see...exxon,walmart,bp...the truth will never be known about the gulf coast impact,halaburton,wall street,this system in place now just plain sucks.and we are trying to sell our business model to the rest of the world daily.i am guiltiy as anyone...i like tools and stuff etc.the best thing in life to me would be a true homesteading life with a wife and our daily duties were mainly focused on each others well being,our land and others around us directly.you should read Helen and Scott Nearings books.the word socialism gets tossed around some but i think in the wrong fashion.their system of life is a real good one.i wanna live a natural life .


yes, it all begins at home and goes out from there.


----------



## Shygal

City Bound said:


> what about the chance to fail or succeed based on your merit and incentive? What about the pleasure of building your own life from the ground up the way you see fit to make it? What about dreaming and making your dreams come true? Those are some great things that america offers people.
> 
> When there is too much bureucracy people often develop an institutionalized mindset.
> 
> Swedin is nice but have they ever produced a Walt Disney that sprinkled the world with joy and imagination, or an Edison, or a Ford? Do they constantly invent new music styles that delight and entertain the world?


Yeah you're right, only the US does all those things. 
ABBA didn't do anything musically. 
Bjorn Borg is nothing, Mats Wilander is nothing, Alfred Nobel is nothing, Ingemar Stenmark is nothing, Anders Celsius is nothing, Carl Linnaeus is nothing, Ingmar Bergman is nothing, Max von Sydow is nothing, Volvo is a worthless car, De Laval that invented the milking machine is nothing, Dag Hammarskjold is nothing, Greta Garbo is nothing, etc etc

talk about xenophobia , sheesh :stars:


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## Guest

"I want to be alone. I just want to be alone" "You're gonna be very much alone my dear madame, this is the end"

I guess she was one of us.


----------



## Prismseed

How much money is ludicrously too much money? At what point should you start giving back to the society the sustains you? After you put italian marble and a golden toilet in your bathroom? How about after you get a 20 car garage and fill it with legitimate antiques? Maybe after your 10th house? Or after you get back from a ski trip in the alps?


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## Shygal

I think the Vatican has gone past the point of ludicrously too much money, a long time ago


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## Fowler

Prismseed said:


> How much money is ludicrously too much money? At what point should you start giving back to the society the sustains you? After you put italian marble and a golden toilet in your bathroom? How about after you get a 20 car garage and fill it with legitimate antiques? Maybe after your 10th house? Or after you get back from a ski trip in the alps?



I can pave my drive way in gold if I choose, it's not up to you how I spend my money. Or how much I choose to make.


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## Tommyice

Just my two cents worth on a couple of the topics here......

$0.01 == my money is my money. I earned it. If I want to help someone (and I do when I can) I do. I don't want someone else telling me how much help and to whom and when to do it. I have been helped in the past when I was in troubled financial times. They were offers of help, not demands. My time is my time, I use how I see fit. Whether it is working my butt off to make money or working at home producing food and clothing. It all becomes selfishness when I choose to give *nothing *of myself--be it money, time or emotion.

$0.01 == excluding any blood from indigenous peoples of north america.....why did your ancestors come to the United States? I know why mine came. I know why they fought and bleed here (and oversees as well). And after traveling outside this country, I thank God that my ancestors came to America. The world is full of unique countries with unique individuals, mindsets and cultures. It was a joy to experience them, no matter how briefly. However my favorite part was always getting off the plane at Newark and seeing our stars and stripes hanging on the wall on the way to customs. (on the topic of customs inspectors, I have to say Italy's were the absolute friendliest)


----------



## WhyNot

City Bound said:


> what about the chance to fail or succeed based on your merit and incentive? What about the pleasure of building your own life from the ground up the way you see fit to make it? What about dreaming and making your dreams come true? Those are some great things that america offers people.


These things exists in other countries, and in some you actually have a better chance and better choices than in America. I'm not sure what makes you think America has cornered the market on this, it's very arrogant.



City Bound said:


> When there is too much bureucracy people often develop an institutionalized mindset.


Is that how you excuse your "reasoning"?



City Bound said:


> Swedin is nice but have they ever produced a Walt Disney that sprinkled the world with joy and imagination, or an Edison, or a Ford? Do they constantly invent new music styles that delight and entertain the world?


YES! Co founder of Indian bikes was from Sweden, the wax paper cartons that used to just be for milk, Swedish man invented those, Nordstroms..originated from Swedish people, there are MANY Swedes that have contributed to the WORLD, not just America...some immigrated to America some did not. Buzz Aldrin is Swedish, Absolut vodka, that is an interesting business model...ever hear of that maybe? America IS a melting pot, and isn't all as original as you seem to think it is. It takes ALL cultures to make this world go round, especially in America. However, obviously in your mind, you think America is some isolated country when in fact, not only does what we do affect the world...we could not do it without the other people/cultures in the world. Nokia? Al Gore really did not invent the internet or world wide web...no American did...but boy do we love it.

When I was in Sweden I stayed with a man/family that was a cofounder of what is now the second largest electronics company in the world, they started it in 1979 in Germany. And you mean to tell me that America has the gambit on whether or not you are "rich"?

I am currently cohabitating with a person who has a position in the WORLD'S largest financial institution, that LARGELY controls not only America's economy but the world economy, that is not and never has been owned by an "American"...BUT DOES control American's CREDIT, FINANCING and a large portion of the stock and bond markets..and you say that American's have control of their wealth? Really? There are grander things at work other than your salary or lack thereof.



City Bound said:


> One thing that is nice about america is that if a person wants to choose to be on welare they can and if a person has the ability and wants to choose to be a billionare then they can choose that. If someone choses to be on welfare they should accept the limitations of their choice rather then looking over the fence at the billionare and lusting after the life of the billionare. It is not fare to compare the rich and the poor and then expect them to be equal. The rich and the poor are worlds apart and they do not have much in common. I am poor. I do not look at the rich and feel I deserve what they have or that they have to give me a cut of their loot. I accept that they are rich because usually they excel above other people in ways that make them more money. me, I am mediocre at best and I accept my lot in life the best I can.


I don't even know where these statements come from....but you need to start educating yourself about the world AND America.




City Bound said:


> Sometimes we just have to accept our lot in life.


How very ................. unAmerican.


----------



## WhyNot

Tommyice said:


> my money is my money. I earned it. If I want to help someone (and I do when I can) I do. I don't want someone else telling me how much help and to whom and when to do it.


I don't understand how this train of thought is even entering into this conversation, will someone please tell me what any of this has to do with someone else dictating where someone spends their money. PLEASE!


----------



## Tommyice

I may be wrong Whynot, but on the previous pages there was talk about socialism and earnings and how folks spend money and when to give it back. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm foggy since I got woken up much earlier than I planned by a friend calling to tell me she had a bad nightmare and I was in it. 

It's my two cents in the penny pot on the counter....you don't have to take it.


----------



## WhyNot

Oh I see. Yes....I skipped over the dictatorship model that people seemed to imply talking about intentional communities and was trying to stick to the topic that we migrated to.

I do realize now that people are confused as to what socialism or socialist model means and think it's a strict communism, doesn't make sense but I understand the M.O. I reckon it's the same reason that people think our government is a Democracy...which may be nice to have...even just a form of it but we've never actually achieved it.

It's interesting to watch people be so afraid of something they don't understand while also hating what they have, which they don't understand and then dictating what it "should" be, which they also don't seem to understand.

I'll leave you all to it now...because I understand that actual discussion is ... unachievable with everyone so paranoid about their money...and thinking it's all about individuals money and taking it away.


----------



## Fowler

WhyNot said:


> I don't understand how this train of thought is even entering into this conversation, will someone please tell me what any of this has to do with someone else dictating where someone spends their money. PLEASE!


The same post I replied too, primseed post.


----------



## WhyNot

Figured some here would enjoy this....for different reasons.

[YOUTUBE]Bzvm7zd4Z-s&feature=share[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Prismseed

Fowler said:


> I can pave my drive way in gold if I choose, it's not up to you how I spend my money. Or how much I choose to make.


It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven

What good is it to gain the world and loose your soul?

-Jesus Christ socialist.


----------



## WhyNot

Fowler said:


> The same post I replied too, primseed post.


okay well..I don't really understand his thought process either. But in America, if you work and pay taxes we all contribute to society already whether we want to or not and we are not in control of that so I really fail to see the issue that's being argued. To me it's a moot point.


----------



## Fowler

WhyNot said:


> Oh I see. Yes....I skipped over the dictatorship model that people seemed to imply talking about intentional communities and was trying to stick to the topic that we migrated to.
> 
> I do realize now that people are confused as to what socialism or socialist model means and think it's a strict communism, doesn't make sense but I understand the M.O. I reckon it's the same reason that people think our government is a Democracy...which may be nice to have...even just a form of it but we've never actually achieved it.
> 
> It's interesting to watch people be so afraid of something they don't understand while also hating what they have, which they don't understand and then dictating what it "should" be, which they also don't seem to understand.
> 
> I'll leave you all to it now...because I understand that actual discussion is ... unachievable with everyone so paranoid about their money...and thinking it's all about individuals money and taking it away.


I had a converstation with a person that blamed the goverment for their short comings. IMO we live in America, the oppertunity is there for all of us, it's up to the individual to make it happen.


----------



## Guest

The soul of the sluggard craves and gets nothing, while the soul of the diligent is richly supplied.
For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
The hand of the diligent will rule, while the slothful will be put to forced labor.
The way of a sluggard is like a hedge of thorns, but the path of the upright is a level highway.


Yep, a bible verse for every occasion.


----------



## Fowler

WhyNot said:


> okay well..I don't really understand his thought process either. But in America, if you work and pay taxes we all contribute to society already whether we want to or not and we are not in control of that so I really fail to see the issue that's being argued. To me it's a moot point.


We may not in "total" control of what we pay in, but we are in control of how much we want to make...money wise.


----------



## WhyNot

Fowler said:


> I had a converstation with a person that blamed the goverment for their short comings. IMO we live in America, the oppertunity is there for all of us, it's up to the individual to make it happen.


Yes, just like it most other modernly civilized countries.


----------



## Fowler

Prismseed said:


> It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven
> 
> What good is it to gain the world and loose your soul?
> 
> -Jesus Christ socialist.


Ummm.....ok?


I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine. 
Ayn Rand


----------



## WhyNot

Fowler said:


> We may not in "tota" control of what we pay in, but we are in control of how much we want to make...money wise.


How is this different than most other countries, save the ones that don't have their civil rights straightened out and etc? I think it's an illusion of propaganda that promotes the idea that other social models "top people out".

In any case...I'm not sure that it's "okay" to me to not be in control of how much they take, especially if I continue to make more and more and more money...the more you make, the more they take....tax brackets. I dunno...I guess in my mind it's not that far removed from all the things people say they don't want.


----------



## Fowler

WhyNot said:


> Yes, just like it most other modernly civilized countries.


That's their government, people in other countries have to change it, I cannot be held responsible for other all other 3rd world countries.


----------



## Tommyice

WhyNot said:


> Oh I see. Yes....I skipped over the dictatorship model that people seemed to imply talking about intentional communities and was trying to stick to the *topic that we migrated to.*


I think there might have been more than one or two topics in this drift. I've seen drift here, but this thread has been like sailing into one of those spots where two oceans meet. Stuff is everywhere. LOL


WhyNot said:


> I do realize now that people are confused as to what socialism or socialist model means and think it's a strict communism, doesn't make sense but I understand the M.O. I reckon it's the same reason that people think our government is a Democracy...which may be nice to have...even just a form of it but we've never actually achieved it.
> 
> It's interesting to watch people be so afraid of something they don't understand while also hating what they have, which they don't understand and then dictating what it "should" be, which they also don't seem to understand.
> 
> I'll leave you all to it now...because I understand that actual discussion is ... unachievable with everyone so paranoid about their money...and thinking it's all about individuals money and taking it away.


I do know the difference between Socialism and Communism (and a whole lot of other _-isms_ too). There huge volumes written on the differences, but what I learned it to be (from someone who lived through both) is that it's consent of the people.


----------



## Fowler

WhyNot said:


> How is this different than most other countries, save the ones that don't have their civil rights straightened out and etc? I think it's an illusion of propaganda that promotes the idea that other social models "top people out".
> 
> In any case...I'm not sure that it's "okay" to me to not be in control of how much they take, especially if I continue to make more and more and more money...the more you make, the more they take....tax brackets. I dunno...I guess in my mind it's not that far removed from all the things people say they don't want.


I am responsible for "ME"....the more I make, the more I donate, the more I donate the more I write off which equals, the less I owe to the IRS. 

It seems funny to me, That without the rich or well off who would support all the donations, food banks, chairties, hospitals, libraries, schools, and on and on and on do I need to make a list?


----------



## elkhound

eye of the needle= the small section of a very low gate way leading into a walled fortress back in the day.they use to close the main gates and stragglers use to have to pass through the eye of the needle to enter.the camel has to bow down on its knees to enter.thats so an invading army etc would have trouble over running them.so its used to tell you you gotta get down on yours knees....that means praying.

my 2 cents....but overlook me i am a dum ******* that cant spell or write.


----------



## WhyNot

Fowler said:


> I am responsible for "ME"....the more I make, the more I donate, the more I donate the more I write off which equals, the less I owe to the IRS.
> 
> It seems funny to me, That without the rich or well off who would support all the donations, food banks, chairties, hospitals, libraries, schools, and on and on and on do I need to make a list?


No you don't need to make a list...but ask yourself why the rich do that...it's because they DON'T get to write off more and more as they make more and more.

I'm not saying it's bad to be rich. But the idea that "any other model" other than the Representative Republic in which we live, operates to keep everyone the same in weath is incorrect.

And yes, you are responsible for just you, however no matter the money situation you still contribute so I don't understand how talking about these things riles people up so much. Do you all really think that these other countries all their workers live in squander so that everyone is "equal"? Far from it.

If I were to say to you...okay I will provide you with a world class education, IF YOU WANT IT, and if you do that you will not have to pay for that education, then I will employ you in the field of YOUR CHOOSING and you will TAKE HOME 50K a year after taxes, and from that salary you can chose to purchase or save at YOUR discretion, on top of that, if you or your family need medical care, I will provide that at little or no extra cost to you and you MAY CHOOSE whichever care facility in the country you want to go to...and what is more, when you CHOOSE to retire, I will give you a monthly stipend that is 70% of what you have worked so hard to achieve all those years NO MATTER how much money you have in savings and investments. Keep in mind you can opt out at any time.

But we wouldn't want any of that because...we are Americans and, dammit! We want to choose how we spend our money.


----------



## elkhound

when i win the 100 billion on lotto...i am getting my truck painted and going to eat bologna sandwich and hot peppers everyday for lunch.hire a 10 man crew and travel around the country visiting ST members and fixing things they need help with.


----------



## WhyNot

Bologna is good stuff.


----------



## elkhound

WhyNot said:


> Bologna is good stuff.


especially homemade and them smoked a bit....yummyy


----------



## Tommyice

elkhound said:


> when i win the 100 billion on lotto...i am getting my truck painted and going to eat bologna sandwich and hot peppers everyday for lunch.hire a 10 man crew and travel around the country visiting ST members and fixing things they need help with.


But when you come to visit me, Elk, you'll be eating something other than bologna (get your mind out of the gutter). I'll feed you wonderful home cooked meals of meat, potatoes, yummy vegetables and follow all up with delectable desserts.

What are your lucky numbers?


----------



## elkhound

if people want to be ultra rich i support them as long as they are not abusing employees.

BUT i want them to afford me the same right to live close to the dirt and earth and garden,can,harvest wildlife as i need to or butcher my own livestock and spend my days as i see fit.

such are the dreams of a poor eclectic eccentric woodsbum


----------



## Tommyice

WhyNot said:


> If I were to say to you...okay I will provide you with a world class education, IF YOU WANT IT, and if you do that you will not have to pay for that education, then I will employ you in the field of YOUR CHOOSING and you will TAKE HOME 50K a year after taxes, and from that salary you can chose to purchase or save at YOUR discretion, on top of that, if you or your family need medical care, I will provide that at little or no extra cost to you and you MAY CHOOSE whichever care facility in the country you want to go to...and what is more, when you CHOOSE to retire, I will give you a monthly stipend that is 70% of what you have worked so hard to achieve all those years NO MATTER how much money you have in savings and investments. *Keep in mind you can opt out at any time.*


Where is all the money going to come from to pay for all this when a majority decide to "opt out"?



> we are Americans and, dammit! We want to choose how we spend our money.


Couldn't agree with you more on this portion of your post.


----------



## City Bound

whynot, I think what some people are failing to notice is that most americans like the way things are here in america and do not feel the need for a radical change to a new style of government and liestyle. if it aint broke, don't fix it. 

I thought the quality of life in Poland was better then in america but I do not think we should follow poland. America has it's faults but this is our home. 

I think you missed my point about accepting one's lot in life. I did not mean it like a cast system that people are bound to like in india. I meant it as, people do the best they can in life and you efforts take you as far as they can take you. If your efforts do not take you as far as those who are more skilled and creative then you then don't get bitter, don't covet your nieghbor's wife, ox, land, and home, instead just try to find peace where you find yourself and if you have untapped potential and wish to mine it to go further then ether make the choice or do not make the choice to take advantage of your potential.

I sympathize with the welfare of gross poverty where people can not afford to eat and who are in true need. I believe in helping my fellow man who finds themself in those conditions, but I can not sympathize with the people who grumble and hold grudges over relative poverty. If you have a roof over your head, food in your gut, and some people to love then you are doing well in life.


----------



## Fowler

WhyNot said:


> No you don't need to make a list...but ask yourself why the rich do that...it's because they DON'T get to write off more and more as they make more and more.
> 
> I'm not saying it's bad to be rich. But the idea that "any other model" other than the Representative Republic in which we live, operates to keep everyone the same in weath is incorrect.
> 
> And yes, you are responsible for just you, however no matter the money situation you still contribute so I don't understand how talking about these things riles people up so much. Do you all really think that these other countries all their workers live in squander so that everyone is "equal"? Far from it.
> 
> If I were to say to you...okay I will provide you with a world class education, IF YOU WANT IT, and if you do that you will not have to pay for that education, then I will employ you in the field of YOUR CHOOSING and you will TAKE HOME 50K a year after taxes, and from that salary you can chose to purchase or save at YOUR discretion, on top of that, if you or your family need medical care, I will provide that at little or no extra cost to you and you MAY CHOOSE whichever care facility in the country you want to go to...and what is more, when you CHOOSE to retire, I will give you a monthly stipend that is 70% of what you have worked so hard to achieve all those years NO MATTER how much money you have in savings and investments. Keep in mind you can opt out at any time.
> 
> But we wouldn't want any of that because...we are Americans and, dammit! We want to choose how we spend our money.


I wonder why so many people in other countries want to live in America if it's so bad?
And then I wonder why so many natural born Americans complain?

Maybe we should have a foreign exchange process.


----------



## elkhound

Tommyice said:


> But when you come to visit me, Elk, you'll be eating something other than bologna (get your mind out of the gutter). I'll feed you wonderful home cooked meals of meat, potatoes, yummy vegetables and follow all up with delectable desserts.
> 
> What are your lucky numbers?


BR549.....i get lucky every time i call....except when i get the NC extension....lmao.


i just soon have a sandwich sitting on corner of counter as we bounce threw the kitchen canning and being busy.....now saturday night...its going to be a ribeye for sure....and grilled vegetables too.


----------



## Guest

If everybody is taking home $50k a year, it's going to cost $700 to get your car washed and $50 for a big mac. The $50k will be as useful as a trillion dollars in Zimbabwe.

This kids mama sent him to the store to get some bread. The Zimbabwe dollar was worth $1.47 American dollars at it's inception.


----------



## City Bound

this is a constructive conversation. I am enjoying it. lets try not to fight too much or name call and maybe the tread will not get pulled down.


----------



## City Bound

whynot living in NYC I went to public school with some really bad apples who came from housing projects (not to say that all housing project people are bad. I had many friends and a few gf's from the projects.) These kids came to school and did nothing, they did not work, they robbed other students, they sat on the desks in the classroom during class and talked to each other like they were hanging out in the park on saturday night and they made it almost impossible for other students to learn and for teachers to teach. Thier literal response to any invitation for them to behave and to learn something was "why should I care, I am going to live on Welare when I get out of here!" or "shoot, I don't care". Those kids were birthed, fed, housed, and cared or by the public their whole lives and they received free education just the same as all other american kids but rather then take the hand up they took the hand out. How do people like that it into the utopia you suggest?


----------



## Groene Pionier

I am living in one of those countries, born and raised here. I can see a very big difference between your and my upbringing and set of believes. 
We are the society and we decide what direction it has to go. It was Joseph de Maistre who said "Every country has the government it deserves (Toute nation a le gouvernement qu&#8217;elle mÃ©rite") which can be found in Maistre's Lettres et Opuscules InÃ©dits vol. 1, letter 53, written on 15 August 1811 and published in 1851. 

If you don't like where your country is heading just vote the other way, it is that plain simple, that is the power you have when you live in a democracy. We all know numerous countries which aren't democracies. I am happy though that I live in a country where the elderly, sick and other weaker persons in society are taken care of. Personally, I think that some in the States can be very harsh compared what I am used here. I do have to say I see a shift in thoughts and it is getting harder here as well, especially the youth is thinking more in the lines of: why should I pay for elders or the sick. we'll see where this country is heading.


----------



## Tommyice

Groene Pionier said:


> If you don't like where your country is heading just vote the other way, it is that plain simple, that is the power you have when you live in a democracy. We all know numerous countries which aren't democracies. I am happy though that I live in a country where the elderly, sick and other weaker persons in society are taken care of. Personally, I think that some in the States can be very harsh compared what I am used here. I do have to say I see a shift in thoughts and it is getting harder here as well, especially the youth is thinking more in the lines of: why should I pay for elders or the sick. we'll see where this country is heading.


You're right it is plain simple to vote. I love that we get to vote and have a "revolution" every first Tuesday in November. Thing is, sometimes your vote will not be the winning one. The only choice then is to keep working to exact the change you want. 

Groene there was a time when family took care of their own elderly and sick. For those without family, charity and some state services took care. There has been a shift in the "family responsibility" of this country. Growing up in the late sixties and seventies, I saw people still took care of their own but that shift was occurring then. It was gradual. There are those that are forgotten. It is sad, but it is a fact of life. We, as individuals can only try to help--we can't mandate it and force others to our way of thinking. We can only openly discuss and try to come to an accord on it. God knows when a sparrow falls. Doesn't mean He likes it.


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## elkhound

leslie yes things have changed.


----------



## elkhound

heres a video thats shows the effects of a hand up in life.and very minor hand up at that...new plants and technical assistance and plans for a small warehouse...that to me is a very interesting large root cellar.i think that would be a nice thing here to have on our homesteads.basically a root cellar on steriods.


[youtube]3goIHMNhmj0[/youtube]


----------



## WhyNot

Tommyice said:


> Where is all the money going to come from to pay for all this when a majority decide to "opt out"?


The money to care for the people is only for the people that opt in, and enough would be taken out...for the examples sake...in the form of taxes. 

The example...and intended to be a mostly ficiticious one but certainly a doable one...like any other example or actual form of social security has pros and cons. However, again, it's an opt in. Just like we have here already really, but modeled a little differently.

If people in America "opt in" to working a regular W-2 job, they have taxes taken out and pay forward for their social security and their healthcare. The more you work the more you, in theory, bank for your future. Of course, if I remember correctly, social security was forced...I mean voted in because largely people did stop saving for their future and were deemed a burden on society. Enter social security. Tell the people who voted, or forced to pay for social security they are socialists and see what happens.

There are weak points in any social system, however, when a system is no longer working, such as some of our systems in the United States, it behooves us to consider other structures. Instead of beating the dead horses due to status quo and supposed violations of our freedoms.

I'm glad we are able to vote in the republic system that our government is, it is very sad to me to listen to people complain about this or that politician and this or that policy and then decide to not vote and convince others no to vote because in their minds "it doesn't matter". It does matter. And when the American voters stop voting is when, seriously, something critical will happen and the people with go..oh shoot! what just happen? Because so many do want to plug along with their heads down supporting the status quo.

For someone to say it's not broken needs to watch the news, preferably the world news, to understand the impact it has on America and America's impact on the rest of the world's governments. All of it may not be all that pressing or tragic...but some things have to change and the fact is, they ARE going to change...into what is the question.

The socialist model I keep refering to here, I do believe, really no longer exists in Sweden, or at least, not in the same form...it was something that was used for a few decades to help their country and it did work. Politically they are heading in another direction now, however, that still does not mean that the transition was not valuable and that we all, as world citizens, could learn something from it. Whether we use it or not, is not the issue, it's actually being able to see the benefits of another structure.

The only way, and I mean this, that America is a democracy is because we count the citizen vote...otherwise, technically, we are a representative republic. Please feel free to look it up. If it has changed in the last few months I will take my lumps and move on.

All these terms...democracy, socialism, communism, liberal, republican, etc, etc, and on and on each have at least 30 some odd definitions running the gambit from lax to extreme and there is not one country that I know about who is pure in form of any of these or any other. It's a very complicated thing and to pigeonhole any of them is a disservice.

So, I've been speculating all day about how we could go with the "take care of just me and my own" sort of model that so many posting here seem to be so fond of. We would pay less for taxes for sure..there would be nothing taken out for medicare or social security. Although no one would be able to draw it either...but at the same time then at least you would be able to control where the money goes for that.

Course, I do believe we had this model once. And we don't now. So...what does that mean? Did it not work? Are people in general so selfish that our government had to step in to implement social security or was it all just forced on an unsuspecting, unwanting and unwilling public?


----------



## WhyNot

Fowler said:


> That's their government, people in other countries have to change it, I cannot be held responsible for other all other 3rd world countries.


I'm not sure how 3rd world countries are entering into the conversation only because I didn't see mention of them at all before this. Nor do I recall saying that any other country's government is better than ours. I did say and imply that we should all look at social system structures though for ideas...because ours is not working.

I personally do not like the idea of working my butt off, having them collect medicare and social security only to have it squandered by the time I get there. This isn't working...so it's time for something to be different.

Of course, it is my responsibility to ensure my future however I can, and not my governments, however, just like you (I assume) I also want to hold my government accountable for what they are taking from me, because I'm supposed to be able to use that later...and if I can't...well....it's an issue.

Part of me ensuring my future was being a responsible, law abiding citizen that pays their taxes...with the understanding that I would eventually recieve a benefit from that.


----------



## WhyNot

City Bound said:


> whynot, I think what some people are failing to notice is that most americans like the way things are here in america and do not feel the need for a radical change to a new style of government and liestyle. if it aint broke, don't fix it.


Maybe but I've spent most all of my summer traveling and most, not all, people I meet have something to gripe about that they want to change. Which is hard to ignore. Perhaps it is the minority, however, when you are surrounded by people that (quite literally) want to see politicians heads on sticks, for many various reasons...it's easy to get the idea that most people would like to see something change. I see a lot of people in ST complain about one thing or another, politics related or not...so I assume if people are griping it's because they aren't happy with the status quo. But then again some just complain to complain and are apathetic one way or another.



City Bound said:


> I thought the quality of life in Poland was better then in america but I do not think we should follow poland.


I would like to know more about this, because I was not able to go to Poland though I was close. However, I do know that some neighboring countries had an issue with Polish migrant workers and it had the citizens upset at the time. This was in 2008...things could have changed...but I know what the general opinion was of the people that spoke of it so I'd be really interested in the perspective on the "other side".



City Bound said:


> I think you missed my point about accepting one's lot in life. I did not mean it like a cast system that people are bound to like in india. I meant it as, people do the best they can in life and you efforts take you as far as they can take you. If your efforts do not take you as far as those who are more skilled and creative then you then don't get bitter, don't covet your nieghbor's wife, ox, land, and home, instead just try to find peace where you find yourself and if you have untapped potential and wish to mine it to go further then ether make the choice or do not make the choice to take advantage of your potential.


Okay maybe I missed your point, mostly I was truly aghast that you seemed to convey the idea that most of what you posted about was ONLY able to be done in America and also the "lot in life" thing seemed to contradict what you said about people basically striving to attain, nothing holding Americans back, as it were. Not exactly what you said, but it was what I got from what you were implying. So now I understand what you mean by lot in life.



City Bound said:


> I sympathize with the welfare of gross poverty where people can not afford to eat and who are in true need. I believe in helping my fellow man who finds themself in those conditions, but I can not sympathize with the people who grumble and hold grudges over relative poverty. If you have a roof over your head, food in your gut, and some people to love then you are doing well in life.


hmmm. Okay. Once again I am trying to get it through my apparently thick skull why this keeps coming back around to separating or not separating rich or poor. Or people grumbling because they are unwilling to work for what they want to have. So I'll keep trying to understand. There is obviously large things going on here in this thread that I am missing.


----------



## Fowler

You did a lot of typing...LOL


----------



## WhyNot

Fowler said:


> You did a lot of typing...LOL


A product of too much thinking.


----------



## elkhound

WhyNot said:


> A product of too much thinking.



when i read your posts i feel like i just went to college for an entire semester.....lmao..............your so far over my head dr.whynot.


----------



## WhyNot

elkhound said:


> when i read your posts i feel like i just went to college for an entire semester.....lmao..............your so far over my head dr.whynot.


Oh please. I didn't even finish college. I blame my father. He was Swedish (lol) and a stickler for large vocabularies, correctness and diction so it's all but beat into me...or some of it anyway...and he LOVED to discuss world events over dinner, which usually sent my mother into the toilet crying because she thought we were fighting. I pay for this of course. No one wants to be with an opinionated woman very long.


----------



## elkhound

WhyNot said:


> Oh please. I didn't even finish college. I blame my father. He was Swedish (lol) and a stickler for large vocabularies...and LOVED to discuss world events over dinner. I pay for this of course. No one wants to be with an opinionated woman very long.


its over my crayon writtings......i get lost easy


see jane run
see spot run
love
garden
homestead
chainsaw
i love you
my wifes the best
garden
yes honey 
firewood
food
roof
i love you honey

on good days my writings are in multi colors


----------



## elkhound

why ya think i post youtubes so much....i cant spell or grammer correctly....lol


----------



## WhyNot

Oh you are funny Elk. And do yourself an injustice that I see often round these parts.

As I was recently told by a very much self proclaimed Louisiana Swamp Idjit...."Hey, you sound all fancy but really, you all country."

Yup. That'd be me. The fancy sounding *******


----------



## elkhound

WhyNot said:


> No one wants to be with an opinionated woman very long.



you keep traveling around and sooner or later you going to run into a corn fed farm man that jump starts ya heart and mind and your going to be standing there with ya mouth gaped open catching flies trying to slow your heart rate down to at least 120....i see ya standing there now...noddin ya head up and down lookin all google eyed saying ...uh huh... can have supper tonight with ya...lmao


----------



## WhyNot

Yup. You got it, guy. I'm just waiting for the one that, with one kiss can stop mah brain. But first...I have to figure out how to keep from scaring them out of trying 

Thought I found one tho...scared him off lol...there may have been another one...until I opened up my trap in this thread LMAO. Oh the irony.


----------



## elkhound

WhyNot said:


> Yup. You got it, guy. I'm just waiting for the one that, with one kiss can stop mah brain. But first...I have to figure out how to keep from scaring them out of trying
> 
> Thought I found one tho...scared him off lol...there may have been another one...until I opened up my trap in this thread LMAO. Oh the irony.


well.....i hear camo duct tape works...lmao


----------



## WhyNot

elkhound said:


> well.....i hear camo duct tape works...lmao


:shocked: You've been reading my private diaries!..... looks to one side :hohum: ... looks to the other.... :hohum:..... "FOWLER!!" 

I see she's just laundered her cholorform hankies....evidence destroyed....


----------



## elkhound

WhyNot said:


> :shocked: You've been reading my private diaries!..... looks to one side :hohum: ... looks to the other.... :hohum:..... "FOWLER!!"
> 
> I see she's just laundered her cholorform hankies....evidence destroyed....



i got excited for a minute i thought it was ya panties on the line~swing~...lmao


----------



## WhyNot

I'm not that ....................... dainty.


----------



## elkhound

WhyNot said:


> I'm not that ....................... dainty.




ah...when there silky..frilly..lacey...colorful....its doesnt matter..its all about the color.


----------



## City Bound

whynot, were people that you encountered upset about the style of gov we have here in america or where they upset about the quality and performance of the suits in washington? Where they upset about the gov or where they upset about how the recession is starving their wallets?

Greed and dishonesty got the world into this global recession. Individuals all over the world had a feeding frenzy of greed that led to burn out. Now we have to pay the piper. almost all our problems right now are to do with money. The gov is going broke and they are going to put the squeeze on us to pinch pennies.

yes, a good deal of people envy successul people and they covet other people's wealth and happiness. Rather then dig their feet deeper into their own shoes and walk their own path in life they look over the fence and lust after other people's wealth and get bitter that they do not have it. If people walked their own path and worked sincerely to climb out of their own hole the world would be a better place. 

Poland is clean, organized, the people are nice and friendly, it has a low crime rate, it has socialized medicine.


----------



## City Bound

greone, we *do *take care of our old, our sick, and our weak. We have medicare to give health care to the elderly, and we have medicaid to give health care to the poor and the disabled. We have laws to protest the weak. We have laws to protect workers.
We have a law that emergency rooms can not turn away anyone without insurance.

Aside from that many elderly have great health insurance as part of their pensions or from private insurance that they pay for.

We have many diferent social programs, the problem we have is that we are running out of money.


----------



## City Bound

talking about family taking care of family. Have you noticed that the more power gov gets over our personal lives the more the traditional family unit is broken down and destroyed.

Welfare did a great deal of harm to the black american family.


----------



## WhyNot

City Bound said:


> whynot, were people that you encountered upset about the style of gov we have here in america or where they upset about the quality and performance of the suits in washington? Where they upset about the gov or where they upset about how the recession is starving their wallets?


To be quite honest a great deal have been upset that our president is black, they think he is a muslim, they think he is trying to make this a socialist country they also think he is letting the "gays be too free" and that, by god, they better still have their automatic weapons...which I truly don't understand why you would need an automatic weapon or a tank for anything an individual might actually need...which makes me a communist so..... So...take that as that is. I forgot...and he is trying to take away everyone's right to practice their religion.

Regardless of whether or not I support Obama's agenda, he is our President..and coming from a military and very patriotic background, I give that office the respect it deserves no matter if I agree with whomever is voted into that position in the first place.

The other people who are upset about our government that I know are the other side of the spectrum, they do not like our global politics, they wish people would get their heads out of their butts when it comes to social aspects and stop trying to pull the woe is me religion card.

So two quite diverse groups. No one said anything about a recession.

I'm glad you had a great experience in Poland. When I was in Sweden the citizens were upset that the Polish migrant workers were moving into the country and taking work from the Swedes. It seemed sort of akin to the migrant worker issue we have here. Not the same exactly but similar. Again, that was in 2008...I am not sure of the situation now. And I do understand that a country is not to be stereotyped due to one "faction" or another. But it all made me very curious.


----------



## WhyNot

I was told earlier this summer that I don't know anything and that I am stupid because I have never heard an adult have an entire conversation in baby talk (until the point in which I commented that I had never been exposed to adults (70+) engaging in baby talk conversationally), which is, apparently very common in the south...but because I commented that I had never had that experience, I automatically am stupid and know nothing.

So...just so you understand...I'm a know nothing person who, admittedly has not experienced everything there is in the world...that obviously makes me stupid.

Just when you think you have seen and heard it all.................there is more! woot!


----------



## WhyNot

elkhound said:


> ah...when there silky..frilly..lacey...colorful....its doesnt matter..its all about the color.


Yeah okay. Maybe it is all about the color. Even so...if all ya got is covered by a nose wipe hanky....that's not sayin much except dental floss is good for all areas...which...yeah...no.

Just my OH SO humble opinion lol

Ever been on a beach in a thong? No? Yes? If yes then you know what the sand saw means. 

Just sayin.


----------



## elkhound

WhyNot said:


> Yeah okay. Maybe it is all about the color. Even so...if all ya got is covered by a nose wipe hanky....that's not sayin much except dental floss is good for all areas...which...yeah...no.
> 
> Just my OH SO humble opinion lol
> 
> Ever been on a beach in a thong? No? Yes? If yes then you know what the sand saw means.
> 
> Just sayin.


you misunderstood.....it not the size..its the material and the color.it can be the size for a small sail boat if need be......lol....colored roller derby gurl drawers are hot.


----------



## elkhound

you cant tell me this aint fun....i support other rights to be what they want....i expect the same as long as i am not hurting anyone.....a mini gun rocks.


[youtube]SdXw-xRKdmU&feature=related[/youtube]


----------



## WhyNot

No I did not misunderstand you. But I think you did misunderstand me. So. There. Rubber and glue and all that jazz.

I bought some new drawers today, this is why it's on my mind. They are all sorts of colors. That. Sadly. No one but me and whatever dog happens to wander into the bathroom at the time is going to see.

It's really too bad all ya'll are missing out LMAO. But still...I think that Elk has no idea how tiny those hankies really are......


----------



## elkhound

WhyNot said:


> Yeah okay. Maybe it is all about the color. Even so...if all ya got is covered by a nose wipe hanky....that's not sayin much except dental floss is good for all areas...which...yeah...no.
> 
> Just my OH SO humble opinion lol
> 
> Ever been on a beach in a thong? No? Yes? If yes then you know what the sand saw means.
> 
> Just sayin.


me in a thong.....LOL..... they would never let me out of the jail.....yewwww.


----------



## elkhound

WhyNot said:


> No I did not misunderstand you. But I think you did misunderstand me. So. There. Rubber and glue and all that jazz.
> 
> I bought some new drawers today, this is why it's on my mind. They are all sorts of colors. That. Sadly. No one but me and whatever dog happens to wander into the bathroom at the time is going to see.
> 
> It's really too bad all ya'll are missing out LMAO. But still...I think that Elk has no idea how tiny those hankies really are......


if you PM me them pictures of the new colored drawers i promise to glue and rubber them to the wall.

p.s. extra credit for hunter green drawers...lol


----------



## elkhound

if i win the lotto i am getting one of these and a 100 acre rockpile and a truckload of dynamite so i can blow rocks up and push them around.it will be the worlds largest sandbox....oh and a bunkhouse so all yall can come play.

[youtube]fnFgPAW9C2o[/youtube]


----------



## WhyNot

See...fecked up again. There are no greens! Just hot pink, white with polka dots, orange, sunshine yellow, purple and teal..all mixed up with assorted stripes and dots.

See what I mean.....I lose on everything...here I think I have my bases covered...and no freaking green.


----------



## coolrunnin

The original idea of the second amendment wasn't preservation of hunting rights, it was a standing army of all citizens so yea a m-16 in every gunrack and a m1 in every garage. Sure would help in keeping a whole lot of politicians semi-honest.

As far as the lack of respect for the office of president displayed these days I totally agree like them or not you respect the office.

Whynot I have really enjoyed your musings, the only thing I really take exception to is your use of democracy describing our government. We to often forget we are supposed to be a representative republic. To me democracy denotes little better than mob rule.


----------



## elkhound

WhyNot said:


> See...fecked up again. There are no greens! Just hot pink, white with polka dots, orange, sunshine yellow, purple and teal..all mixed up with assorted stripes and dots.
> 
> See what I mean.....I lose on everything...here I think I have my bases covered...and no freaking green.



no you didnt...that much color in one shopping trips gets you a 100points extra credit....:goodjob:


----------



## WhyNot

coolrunnin said:


> The original idea of the second amendment wasn't preservation of hunting rights, it was a standing army of all citizens so yea a m-16 in every gunrack and a m1 in every garage. Sure would help in keeping a whole lot of politicians semi-honest.


Okay well an m16...as I know it is just a semi auto...same as my nylon..but my nylon isn't set up for three shot bursts...but seriously...other than entertainment...of what serious use is a full on auto...other than to kill people...because it isn't to kill for meat..it would be wrecked assuming the shooter is any sort of a shot.



coolrunnin said:


> As far as the lack of respect for the office of president displayed these days I totally agree like them or not you respect the office.


Thank you.



coolrunnin said:


> Whynot I have really enjoyed your musings, the only thing I really take exception to is your use of democracy describing our government. We to often forget we are supposed to be a representative republic. To me democracy denotes little better than mob rule.


Actually...if you read again...I have NOT used the word democracy to describe our government. In fact, at least twice now, I have refered to it as a representative republic.

The actual and only time I have used the word democracy to describe anything about our country has been just to denote that our system of voting is actually the only semblance of democracy. Unfortunately the majority of the public see us as a democracy when in fact, only the idea that we vote even puts us close...as we are not a democracy.


----------



## WhyNot

elkhound said:


> no you didnt...that much color in one shopping trips gets you a 100points extra credit....:goodjob:


Oh but you frugal folk would be aghast at the monies I spent in procuring everything on my shopping trip. 

Actually I am aghast at how much I spent...but honestly...I have not bought clothes for myself other than here and there necessities in 8 years...so it felt darned good! And then I bought beer. And then I bought chocolate. And then I bought pastry. Because I could. And will regret it soon lol.


----------



## Evons hubby

WhyNot said:


> Of course, if I remember correctly, social security was forced...I mean voted in because largely people did stop saving for their future and were deemed a burden on society. Enter social security. Tell the people who voted, or forced to pay for social security they are socialists and see what happens.
> 
> technically, we are a representative republic.
> 
> Are people in general so selfish that our government had to step in to implement social security or was it all just forced on an unsuspecting, unwanting and unwilling public?


Ok... I agree with you, the U.S. was indeed set up to be a representative republic, for all of the right reasons. It has been altered quite a bit from its original format... but it is still basically that republic. 

Now as to SS being voted in... It was not ever voted on by the people... it was one of a long list of FDR's brainchildren. There were so many of them during the great depression they became known as his "alphabet soup". FDR was a well educated man... and knew full well that by offering the public "goodies" from the public treasury that it would earn him votes on voting day. If you will remember income tax was still a relatively new concept in this country at the time, and was only paid by folks in the highest income brackets of the day. If memory serves the going wage was somewhere under 500 per year and income tax didnt start until one earned $4k per year... the equivalent of 400k in todays world. He was basically buying the poor mans vote with the rich mans money. However, even though SS would perhaps help the unfortunate elderly... it was not well received by the public at large... who would now be taxed for the first time on their incomes. It was also not well received by the Supreme Court who ruled unanimously against it declaring it unConstitutional. (along with several of his other social programs) It was not until FDR put enough pressure on the justices, and threatened to not only increase the size of the court to 15, so he could load it in his favor that they finally succumbed and ruled in his favor... with a 5 to 4 vote.


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## WhyNot

Thank you, Yvonne's Hubby...for illustrating that social security was not a voted on topic. But yet...go ahead and try to take it away. Whether voted on or not, social programs are here.

I guess it's my round about way of propigating a point. A lot of people in this thread seem to be all for themselves and don't want to help others with social programs but at the same time realize there is not much of an escape from contributing to social programs. But at the same time they scream about "socialism" when they are already in some way participating in a small way in socialism...most people of my generation and younger believe that social security was voted on..which, I assume you noticed that twice I alluded to the fact that it was actually forced on the public.

But yet the public that did not vote on it...and as you denote, actually were quite upset about...still accept it...they take it..because it's here now...I guess that is a "lot in life" sequence. ?

I have no answers here...but a whole lot of questions and mostly I question why people have the opinions that they do..not argue about whether or not they are "entitled" to that opinion.

So we can say that basically in some respects America went partially socialist on force due to social security among many other things...but yet Americans at this point still concert that we are a democracy and have control of our individual monies. I still say the control is an illusion...but what do I know, I don't talk baby talk LOL

I think that most people don't want to even try to wrap their heads around where this country has been, muchless where it may be headed. And I do not proclaim to have a solution but, again, I have a lot of questions. I feel like the more we reasonably question, the more educated we can become. But it's that line that we cross into crazy extremist views where a lot of hope is lost...well in that and in apathy.


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## coolrunnin

Whynot after rereading i owe you an apology you are right.


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## WhyNot

It's not about being right...in my eyes...all of this is about discussion of ideas...we owe it to ourselves as a free thinking...hopefully CRITICAL thinking society to muss this around a bit. Yeah okay you were mistaken..but it seriously isn't about right or wrong...I do appreciate that you are able to see what I clearly (that time) said...but I know you to be a fairly balanced individual so I had already assumed it was just a mistranslation/misreading error.

I enjoy conversations that go along as discussions...it's very hard for me to keep regrouping when people try to fight about what they think has to be a right or wrong situation.

The situation America is in is not necessarily about right or wrong...it's about finding a solution to what ails the majority...and like it or not..stick your head in the sand or not...there are ills that need fixing. It's just a quagmire to get through.

And how people think that one person in charge is going to just simply solve all this nastiness is beyond me. It's going to somehow take all of us or the majority of us..but certainly the answer does not lie in keeping up with the status quo.


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## WhyNot

I thought this may be appropriate. This was posted earlier this evening on Fb by a friend of mine that happens to be at least 15 years my junior and as I last knew (it could have changed ... kids are so haphazard these days) was a student of nanotechnology somewhere in either Massachusetts or Maryland..take your pick....

"It's a good thing that (insert politician here) won the debate tonight. If (insert politican here) were elected, he would continue to erode our personal liberties, blow more lives and money in the middle east, and fail to address domestic issues in any meaningful manner.

Really, guys?

Seriously?


We're really doing this?

Are we just going to willfully ignore the track record of both parties for at least the last twelve years?"

I just thought it was relevant in some way here.


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## WhyNot

And then there was a very intelligent rebuttal:

"but but but, (insert politician here) stands for the issues that i care about like (insert issue here) and if we don't fix that issue then America will continue to degrade! Only (insert politician here) can save us from a bleak future where no one has any rights!"

OMG OMG OMG !

OMG

!!!!!
These two posts say a lot. A lot more than they say in pixels...they say a lot more than I can even articulate in a few sentences.


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## coolrunnin

Maybe George Washington was on to something when he was against political parties.


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## WhyNot

Indeed.


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## coolrunnin

Yep been seeing that all during this cycle myself, funny in a sad sort of way.


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## WhyNot

As my daughter said after watching the debates, 

"You've got to be ----tin' me. This is all bunk."

And then calls me for some sort of direction...and what is it I should tell her? Because anything to explain it is either going to be a stretch or a lie...and neither sit well with me. What are we to say when our kids look to us and are like, "Uhm...there's no real choice." ? We say, "no ----. and I dunno."

Argh! --- and pass the wild turkey LOL


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## WhyNot

Yes Cool...it is funny in a very sad way...how are we to take it seriously..how are younger gens going to...if we don't come to something? Pretty soon no one is going to vote. I'm sure of that. Unless something goes on...I dunno what..but something has to change. The kids are restless.


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## FarmboyBill

I heard that the independant party now has 42% membership of those who claim that party affiliation. I think that number will rise greatly by the end of the next 4 years NO MATTER who wins. When that happens, you will have a strong (more or less) 3 parties putting in people for offices.

Theyll realize what ive often said about buying hogs. ALWAYS BUY 3.
If you buy one. It makes slow gains. Dosent get in a hurry, and likes to sleep ALOT
Buy 2, and they fight all the time making slow gains, one trying to make sure the other dosnt get anything to eat. Consequently. They eat little more than the one hog, and makes as slow a gains between them.
Buy 3, Either of the 3 knows they cant fight the other 2, so they settle down too getting as much feed as they can and lets it go at that, and all 3 gain without the fighting.


Get a dick tator in and nothing much happens. What does is slow and not many people notice
Hitler and Mussolini were in power 10yrs before people started taking notice seriously, Same way with Stalin.
Get 2 people in the running. All they do is fight all the time. That is our 2 parties. Nothing gets done, as there too busy fighting to reach down into the trough and grab a bite to eat. Constant grid lock, and bickering and fighting.

Get 3, Parties, and they all settle down. Each of the individual parties knows they cant buck the other 2 by themselves, and so they get down to business and get to work.
'The Rs and Ds would fight against the Is for awhile, but they would get continually voted out of office, and the newer people coming in those parties would realize, they need to work for the public good, rather than grabbing onto the rope for a continuing tug of war.


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## Prismseed

zong said:


> The soul of the sluggard craves and gets nothing, while the soul of the diligent is richly supplied.
> For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
> The hand of the diligent will rule, while the slothful will be put to forced labor.
> The way of a sluggard is like a hedge of thorns, but the path of the upright is a level highway.
> 
> 
> Yep, a bible verse for every occasion.


Figured you would be the best response. :goodjob:

The diligent and the sluggard. Black and white but there are shades of gray.

If that is the concern why not put forward solutions to trim out the sluggard and help the would be dilligent? If government regulation can choke the life out of business surely they should be able to do the same to the sluggards. 

Socialism doesn't have to be a check to everyone that asks. It should be a support for those of good character and proven good intentions.


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## Guest

The rules would have to be completely rewritten. For instance, using a single person(Person A) as an example, if one has a net income of $932 per month, she is not eligible for food stamps. However at $931 a month she is. $931 a month, net, that's take home pay. which amounts to $11,172 per year. Person B, having lost their job and no prospects for another one is living of what's left of their life savings. They're down to their last $2001 dollars which won't get them through 8 months. However, because you do not qualify for food stamps if you have over $2000, person B, who has $2001 at their disposal to last forever gets no food stamps, while person A who has $11,172 per year does. Clearly person A is better off all around, yet still qualifies for government assistance. 

The system is set up for abuse. Politicians see votes, and little else. You're fooling yourself if you believe anybody in DC cares about regular people. it's like this, if I have to work and spend my own money to feed my children, I'm going to look at the price of everything I buy, and only get what I can afford. On the other hand, if you give me(I will be person C) a credit card for $500 a month, and tell me I need to max it out or not get as much in the future, what is my motivation to use common sense?? And, after eating $500 worth of every imaginable sort of processed food for their entire childhood, I have assured that my children will be unhealthy, have horrible eating habits, probably have substandard mental capacities from all the sugar and chemicals, and know all about the wonders of your magic credit card. Meanwhile, over in the other side of town, Person B(remember her) who worked hard, paid for her own families groceries, and even had a life savings goes completely without. While I and my family eat bags of chips and throw away perfectly good food that was bought with your dollar. How fair is that?? Not at all.

The entire system would have to be revamped. But how?? Ever go down to the courthouse, or county offices?? Notice how so few people there are capable of even doing their own job without calling for help every few minutes? Why is that, they're not all new employees or anything. It's governmental sponsored incompetence. You don't have to do your job, your job is to get a government job and be incompetent. Then the government needs to employ more people because the work is not getting done. And they do, every year. Nobody is in a position to actually make a decision, they all rest on tons of regulations and the accepted behavior of shuffling you from one to the other until you just give up. 

So, 3 options, 
One: completely revamp the way the government does business. An impossible task
Two: Become assimilated into the government, whether as an employee or a dependent. Something that you'd hope(but be wrong) the majority would object to
Three: Shrug your shoulders, know that you cannot beat the system, and figure how to cheat and get yours.

Do you know that for a few dollars filing fees, a person can make their assets into an irrevocable trust and any liens against them will be completely ineffective? Not only that, but with no assets you qualify for the above mentioned food stamps. Furthermore, since you no longer actually own your home, the trust could charge you rent, and you could qualify for rent assistance. And fuel assistance. Medicaid. All legally, however unethical it sounds.


----------



## Shygal

WhyNot said:


> To be quite honest a great deal have been upset that our president is black, they think he is a muslim, they think he is trying to make this a socialist country they also think he is letting the "gays be too free" and that, by god, they better still have their automatic weapons...which I truly don't understand why you would need an automatic weapon or a tank for anything an individual might actually need...which makes me a communist so..... So...take that as that is. I forgot...and he is trying to take away everyone's right to practice their religion.


Im sorry but I call BS on this. Completely and utterly.


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## Prismseed

Now we're getting to the meat and potatoes of the discussion! :bouncy:

This may be different in other states, but MD from my experience...



zong said:


> The rules would have to be completely rewritten.


It's already partially in the works.



> For instance, using a single person(Person A) as an example, if one has a net income of $932 per month, she is not eligible for food stamps. However at $931 a month she is




Actually it is a scaled system so it is more akin to...

$960= nil
$950= 10 bucks assistant
$940= 20
$930= 30



> Person B, having lost their job and no prospects for another one is living of what's left of their life savings. They're down to their last $2001 dollars which won't get them through 8 months.


But the moment their assests drop to 2000 they do qualify. Go buy a snickers bar. You don't have to wait untill next year to apply again.




> On the other hand, if you give me(I will be person C) a credit card for $500 a month, and tell me I need to max it out or not get as much in the future, what is my motivation to use common sense??


It isn't spend it or loose/reduce. It rolls over into the next month. Personally I like using mine at the local farmer stands and butcher shops that accept it. Once I get more self sufficient on food I plan to either leave it or contribute to a local church food pantry.



> The entire system would have to be revamped. But how??


Someone once said the same things you did, and they have since been changed. The people should put forward the plans in this area. We're the ones 'down in the trenches' exposed to it all. How many senators would you think even shop at the same store as a receiver of assistance or run in the same circles?



> Nobody is in a position to actually make a decision, they all rest on tons of regulations and the accepted behavior of shuffling you from one to the other until you just give up.


And this is why we need to not just demand end of regulations but demand better organized and simpler to follow ones that don't require a degree and a personal library. It can be done, people just haven't been bothered.



> Do you know that for a few dollars filing fees, a person can make their assets into an irrevocable trust and any liens against them will be completely ineffective? Not only that, but with no assets you qualify for the above mentioned food stamps. Furthermore, since you no longer actually own your home, the trust could charge you rent, and you could qualify for rent assistance. And fuel assistance. Medicaid. All legally, however unethical it sounds


That is frigging busted. But in part it depends what the trust funds. If it pays the individual then blam tax it. If it goes to a legitimate non-profit or government entity that sounds pretty cool.


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## Prismseed

Shygal said:


> Im sorry but I call BS on this. Completely and utterly.


While not -every- person opposed to the administration is such a person these types do exist in fair amounts.


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## Guest

Food stamps are a federal program, the rules would be the same everywhere. But, still, you do understand what I'm getting at. Why even try when you can have all your time free and everything you'd have from working a minimal job?? So, entry level type jobs are hardly worthwhile. 

What would be the motivation to roll over the food stamp allotment? You get $500 this month, $500 next month, and so on. Why would anyone accumulate them? It's designed to be maxed out. Because there will be $500 more there next month. So, you learn to buy $500 of food every month, whether you need it or not. 

This chart has gone parabolic. As in any parabolic chart, straight up momentum cannot be maintained. Usually results in a complete collapse. Then some sort of reorganization is needed if it is to remain in existence. Clearly, a whole lot of people are getting all they can, and others around them see the benefits. And then join in.


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## Prismseed

Interesting chart. Though I think it should include reference markers to when programs were introduced. It is afterall based on all assistance programs. So maybe scale back but don't tear down the entire system.



> Why even try when you can have all your time free and everything you'd have from working a minimal job?? So, entry level type jobs are hardly worthwhile.


Add in a motivational tool. For example in Germany their system of unemployment is you get money- but you go out and clear brush and maintain the landscapes. (Makes for great walks in the woods I hear) It is something that needs a care for balance. If the community has a responsibility to help you then you have a responsibility to help your community.


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## coolrunnin

Shygal said:


> Im sorry but I call BS on this. Completely and utterly.


Why do you call BS I hear people talking this trash all the time.


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## FarmboyBill

Z I imagine thats why people sell there food stamps for cash, so that they will get maxed out by somebody, and they have cash for the extra, and food for what they need.


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## coolrunnin

They sell there stamps for cash to use not because its a use it or loose it.

As far a 3rd parties there are already several, most people register independant for the same reason I do, I honestly dont have a party affiliation.


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## ldc

In my area people sell food stamps to be able to pay cash for non-food items, whether they be toilet paper, diapers, cigs or beer...


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## Guest

Selling food stamps still results in food being bought. There is no other way to cash them in any more, other than possibly unscrupulous small store owners. If someone were to come here, offering to give me $20 of food stamps for some salsa and jam, I'd have to laugh. No way, just not my thing. On the other hand, if they take their own food stamps, buy 20 pounds of sugar, and offer me 20 pounds of sugar for some salsa and jam, we're going to do business. Is one wrong and the other right? Although I never sell wine, because I'm distrustful of anyone who wants to try to get me to break any laws, what if it was wine? same thing, I'd not take the food stamps, but I would take the sugar. Once again, is one wronger than the other? Either way, the system gets abused, but one way is within the laws.


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## coolrunnin

Doesn't always it also results in their drug fix being bought.


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## Guest

What I mean is that whoever ends up with the food stamps can only turn them in for food. Ultimately food will be bought. Which supports the stores, I guess. 

Certainly every single person does not abuse the system. But the system is way too easy to be abused. When I lived in Danville, there was always somebody wanting to sell food stamps. They'd approach you in the parking lot of supermarkets. The SNAP card is a little harder, but it's still abused a lot..


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## City Bound

ldc said:


> In my area people sell food stamps to be able to pay cash for non-food items, whether they be toilet paper, diapers, cigs or beer...


they use to do that here until it all went electronic. How are they selling the stamps?

there was actually a thriving underground economy here that used food stamps when they were paper.


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## rkintn

I know here, someone pays about .25 to .50 on the dollar for the benefits and then the foodstamp recipient hands over the card for the buyer to use. All the buyer has to have is the pin number for the card.


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## City Bound

zong it is not really wrong. As long as there is circulation it stimulates the economy and keeps everyone afloat.

I was talking with someone the other day who was flipping out that some person in front of them in the store was buying so many snacks with food stamps. The person said that they should outlaw buying junkood with stamps, then they said it would be even better if people had to go to gov warehouses and get only the essential food items they need to survive. That is the way they use to do it up here.

I told the person it is better if they can go to the stores and use stamps because it provides local jobs and benifits more people and so what if they buy junk food. I am not the food police.


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## doodlemom

AWWWW Give em the junk food.


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## wyld thang

they need to run food stamps like WIC--vouchers for certain basic healthy foods. also good at farmer's markets for vegetables, etc

THAT promotes local farmers/stores/workers

when I was on WIC I got
cheese
peanut butter
milk
beans
cereal
bread
eggs
carrots

after I got off they expanded it to other vegetables and that you could use it at farmer's markets


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## City Bound

haha, did you draw that doodle?

I do not care what people eat just as long as they do not try to tell me what to eat.


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## City Bound

so, someone on stamps can not buy a small junkfood treat for themself once in a while or buy a cake for their little child's birthday party? I do not agree with that. People may not be able to afford food but they should be allowed to make choices. if they are good or bad choices, that is up to them. 

My problem with this line of thought is: where does it end? Next thing you know the gov will be telling parents who receive public assistance that they have to take their kids jogging because the kid is too fat.


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## doodlemom

No I didn't draw that.


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## Guest

You're missing the whole point. It's not a matter if whether they can buy chips, or birthday cake. It's whether or not the system is set up to be exploited. Every time I comment in these sort of threads, always someone coming in saying . "Oh, people on food stamps do not have the right to enjoy eating?" That is not, nor never has been my point. 

The entire system is so haphazardly organized that someone of minimal larcenous intent can easily see it as a free giveaway. If the choices are to dig ditches for minimum wages, or lie a little and get food stamps, medicaid, fuel assistance, housing allowance, etc, which one do you think you'll choose??? It's survival, for crying out loud!! How many people really care if there's some unethical behavior involved?? You're dealing with the US government, the role model for unethical behavior! It's just too easy to tell a few small lies and get on the dole. Sure, if you have the qualifications for a good job, that's what you'll do. Everybody is not intelligent enough, or lucky enough, or even diligent enough to have the right education, or right choices. What about them?? Are you willing to punish them forever because they have different potential?? Surely they are people too??


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## coolrunnin

If they want treats go out earn the money and buy treats. You want food from others then your stuck with what others are willing to give. 

It's pretty rough to watch someone buying junk you cant afford that you are helping to pay for.


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## Shygal

coolrunnin said:


> Why do you call BS I hear people talking this trash all the time.


Yes, HERE you do.


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## Guest

Screw it. It's a waste of talent to be intelligent. Poor people got as much right to buy junk as I do. It's not them, its the freaking system.


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## City Bound

zong I am not saying punish anyone. I was just commenting in general and not directly in relation to what you were saying, that people on foodstamps should be allowed to eat what they like. The fisrt part I said about it not beeing completely wrong because it creates circulation in the economy was in response to what you said. The sencond hal of my post should have been in a seperate post but I stuck it there because i did not want to clog up the thread with too many of my own posts in a row.


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## coolrunnin

zong said:


> Screw it. It's a waste of talent to be intelligent. Poor people got as much right to buy junk as I do. It's not them, its the freaking system.


Why is it the system, yes it is setup terribly, but what forces them to make the poor choices?


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## Guest

If I budget myself to a hundred dollars a month on food, i guess potato chips are food, just as rice is. It's my hundred dollars. I'll buy any dang thing I please. Well, when you give people the food stamps, it's their money. And they can buy any thing they please. If you don't like it, get out the door and vote. The system gives them the food stamps. The system, in the role of public education, never taught them what they should be eating. Advertisements made them think that hoho's are better than dingdongs. All they do is take the food stamps and buy whatever they deem best. It's up to them. Some are wise with their decisions, some foolish. Just like people who earn their money. They're no different. The people are not the problem. The system is at fault. It's designed to be abused.


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## Fowler

:fussin:


:yawn:


----------



## City Bound

I ride by the projects and see people living a pretty good life on the public's dollar and I made my peace with that. I can not change that. What does bother me is that those people are demanding more. 

The apartments in the public housing near me are nice. I was in one apartment in public housing when I was picking up something from freecycle. man, that apartment was awesome, it was on the tenth floor with a view of the atlantic ocean in one window and an awesome view of new york harbor in the livingroom. You could sit in your living room and see nothing but blue skies and the harbor. A block away was the boardwalk and the beach.


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## coolrunnin

Give me somebody to vote for that is against these things and I will be happy to I dont like the choices i have.


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## Guest

Hey, CB. Those people didn't make the system. They just followed the rules. Just because it's possible to get ahead don't mean everybody wants to.


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## doodlemom

Not many places you can grow heroine, opium and cocaine in the U.S...Makes you wonder what goes through the mind of a pre junky before they take the first hit. They must think they are better, stronger or smarter than all the junkies that lept off the cliff before them. They are the center of the universe and no bad can happen or maybe it's life sucks, stop the bus and let me off? Nobody says I want to be a junky when I grow up.


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## Guest

coolrunnin said:


> Give me somebody to vote for that is against these things and I will be happy to I dont like the choices i have.


See, that's the problem. Because they can buy your vote, or buy somebody elses. Who among us is willing to give up anything for a politician?? Can we actually trust them to implement the changes they promise??


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## Fowler

I'm going to go shoot a raccoon, then skin it and make a hat.

Then I'm gonna wear it on halloween and carry a fake rifle and stick up the kids and take their candy.


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## City Bound

coolrunnin said:


> Why is it the system, yes it is setup terribly, but what forces them to make the poor choices?


who is to say they are poor choices? Their choice may be a poor one for me if I made it but it may be a very good one or at least a harmless one for them when they make it.

Sometimes a little bit of candy or a frozen pizza help keep our morale. I know it does for me.


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## Guest

coolrunnin said:


> Why is it the system, yes it is setup terribly, but what forces them to make the poor choices?


Nothing forces them. It's free. You'll never tear your back up. And at the end, you'll be as well off(financially), if not better than your brother, who tried to make his life mean something(in a socio-economic sense), It's just too easy to abuse.


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## City Bound

zong said:


> Hey, CB. Those people didn't make the system. They just followed the rules. Just because it's possible to get ahead don't mean everybody wants to.


zong I am not even sure what we are talking about. I was agreeing with the example you gave of being willing to accept sugar. 

I was not thinking o people getting ahead, rather just trying to make ends meet the best they can by juggling what little resources they have.


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## Fowler

I'm starting a meth lab. Anyone wanna join me?


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## coolrunnin

Heck I don't want anything from a politician but left alone, guess I'm going to be disappointed again.


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## Tommyice

zong said:


> Advertisements made them think that hoho's are better than dingdongs.


Advertising is wrong....DingDongs are much better than HoHo's:happy:


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## Guest

doodlemom said:


> Not many places you can grow heroine, opium and cocaine in the U.S...Makes you wonder what goes through the mind of a pre junky before they take the first hit. They must think they are better, stronger or smarter than all the junkies that lept off the cliff before them. They are the center of the universe and no bad can happen or maybe it's life sucks, stop the bus and let me off? Nobody says I want to be a junky when I grow up.


Pffft. We got Jennifer Anniston and Brad Pitt.


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## Guest

Fowler said:


> I'm starting a meth lab. Anyone wanna join me?


I wouldn't mind mething around in your lab for a couple of hours. A day.


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## City Bound

devil dogs are pretty good.

ok, you want quality on a poor man's budget......buy little debbie's snack cakes. A box is a little over a buck and they are good.


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## doodlemom

[YOUTUBE]2TaFXjIIU1k&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## coolrunnin

Why is it my problem if they are happy? Why should the rest of us be responsible for these folks happiness?


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## Guest

coolrunnin said:


> Why is it my problem if they are happy? Why should the rest of us be responsible for these folks happiness?


Where did "happy" come in?? I just searched the last 3 pages. Only you said happy.....


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## coolrunnin

Aren't dingdongs and Hoho a feel good happy food?


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## City Bound

we are no more resposible for their happiness then we are for their diet, their weight, or their food choices.


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## City Bound

coolrunnin said:


> Aren't dingdongs and Hoho a feel good happy food?


to some people they are just food.

I grew up with those being considered rare treats, but others consider them lunch
.


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## sustainabilly

The system *is *flawed. Problem is, we created the system. Or more to the point, our lack of attention created it. The U.S. reached it's position of world preeminence, then got lazy. Pretty much a given considering human nature and historical evidence. Look at other world powers during different times.

Then, much the same as in the dog eat dog world of survival of the fittest, other countries who had been second best started to make their move. Remember the commercial for the rental car co? "We're number 2. We try harder."

Sure it took longer to happen than in nature, but the analogy still fits. I don't like it either but what's going on is just a natural leveling of the playing field. We're living it so we have a hard time being objective. Think lemmings.

There's probably a solution but, it'll be a compromise. And a compromise usually means everyone walks away from the table not fully satisfied.


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## Guest

Well, I guess some people would be happy eating junk. I'm not really sure. BUT, unless you actually dictate the food bought with the food stamp program, you can't complain. And if people rather eat ding dongs than pinto beans, it's OK for them. I have no quarrel with people getting a helping hand. Nor with people making incredibly poor choices about what to eat. My problem is that the giveaway programs are just too easy. And it's awfully tempting to consider living on the dole, if you don't have any real skills. Then, it's awfully tempting to not develop any skills, since it's so easy to live on the dole. See where I'm going?? at some point in time, there's no reason to even try. Sure, some people can't help but shine. But the rest of the people have to work at it. Why work at excelling when you can live off the dole?? It's been made way too easy.


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## City Bound

why would gov employees stop people from going on the system? They have everything to gain from the system growing in numbers. The more clients they have floating through the door the more secure their pension is, the more secure their job is, the more secure their program will be get funding. it is a comfortable life for people on the system and for the people who run the system. Eventually though, it will go bankrupt.


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## Guest

There you go. Lucidity. The more clients you have, the more job security you have. Eventually the government will hire you an assistant who will rise to your level of incompetence, and you'll be in the back office, with the higher pay, doing nothing. and demanding more help. With fiat currency you never go broke.


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## wyld thang

when I was on WIC, getting my "free" vouchers for food I thought, wow, this is good food, for one it's stuff that is more expensive(like dairy) and it's fresh. The bread and the cereal were processed--but it had to be whole wheat/whole grain cereal(like oats, malto meal, cream of wheat, raisin bran etc). To receive the vouchers I had to take classes on nutrition and meal planning. Cooking classes were available, with a book containing easy recipes using the stuff the vouchers bought plus other nutritious ingredients.

I thought wow, great program--it gets nutritious food to the kids, from as local as possible growers, it educates the parent. 

But apparently something like that would suck because there is no Hoho option, there is no freedom of choice and it would slump sales of processed food? (ha)


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## Guest

Yeah, WIC is pretty restrictive. I'm not sure what that's about. Do some people only deserve healthy food, and other people deserve to get poisoned??


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## doodlemom

zong said:


> Yeah, WIC is pretty restrictive. I'm not sure what that's about. Do some people only deserve healthy food, and other people deserve to get poisoned??


It's a federally funded health and nutrition program for pregnant women and children.


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## coolrunnin

They only care about your nutrition to age 5 after that its twinkies for everyone.


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## doodlemom

[YOUTUBE]hcRyKFEwGaE[/YOUTUBE]


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## Shygal

City Bound said:


> I ride by the projects and see people living a pretty good life on the public's dollar and I made my peace with that. I can not change that. What does bother me is that those people are demanding more.
> 
> The apartments in the public housing near me are nice. I was in one apartment in public housing when I was picking up something from freecycle. man, that apartment was awesome, it was on the tenth floor with a view of the atlantic ocean in one window and an awesome view of new york harbor in the livingroom. You could sit in your living room and see nothing but blue skies and the harbor. A block away was the boardwalk and the beach.


CB, would you like to change places with them? I mean seriously. You would have a nice apartment, food, heat, an awesome view, etc? Would you trade places with them? 

Because that is all they are ever going to have in their life. They will never have any better. They will never have their own home, anything like that. Their life is what it is right now, for the rest of their life.


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## City Bound

Shygal said:


> CB, would you like to change places with them? I mean seriously. You would have a nice apartment, food, heat, an awesome view, etc? Would you trade places with them?
> 
> Because that is all they are ever going to have in their life. They will never have any better. They will never have their own home, anything like that. Their life is what it is right now, for the rest of their life.


Shy, most of us will never have it any better and we struggle every day to maintain what little we have. Honestly, if I did not want my own life and to be free to live my dreams I would trade places with them. But you know for some people living in the projects that is their dream and they are living it and they are happy. They never have to worry about heat, or food, paying rent, or loosing a job. For some people that is paradise.

When you say any better it strikes me as odd because those people have it pretty good when you minus all the misery they create for themselves by misbehaving. Some of the people in the project here in the city are grateful and live their life as a respectful citizen, but then you have others who were handed a nice life for free and they crap all over it, they throw their garbage in the hallways of their buildings, they graffiti the halls, they vandalize what little personal property their neighbors have, they rob, they sell and do drugs, they victimize helpless people, but worst o all they create so much anger and bitterness within themselves by simply not taking a look at whatever good fortune and kindness has befallen them.


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## Shygal

City Bound said:


> Shy, most of us will never have it any better and we struggle every day to maintain what little we have.


Well, I don't know about you, but my life gets better every day. Whether by a tiny amount or a large amount, its still getting better. 

As for "those" people, that might be their dream because its all they know. They've never seen anything else or lived anywhere else. Its what their life is, its cut out for them when they are born, and they will continue that with their own children.

Maybe if they had a chance to experience something different, it would break the trap they have caught themselves in. They dont have their "own life" and I would not trade with them for anything, even if I had to live in my car for a while.


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## Guest

CB, man, you are in charge of your own life. You are living the life you made for yourself. If you want a different life, you are the one who has to make it happen. And it's the same for everybody else, too. I don't see that "struggling to maintain" It's all in your perceptions, I guess.


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## RuffusWI

I want my Obamaphone! I want my debit card charged with FREE gov money! I want my food stamps! I want FREE gov health care! The gov owes it to me!!!!!
Sorry lurking, and couldn't help myself.
Anyone ever think what would happen if those gov debit cards stopped working?


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## wyld thang

is it me or is this getting kinda surreal? 

no wonder nothing changes


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## wyld thang

City Bound said:


> Shy, most of us will never have it any better and we struggle every day to maintain what little we have. Honestly, if I did not want my own life and to be free to live my dreams I would trade places with them. But you know for some people living in the projects that is their dream and they are living it and they are happy. They never have to worry about heat, or food, paying rent, or loosing a job. For some people that is paradise.
> 
> When you say any better it strikes me as odd because those people have it pretty good when you minus all the misery they create for themselves by misbehaving. Some of the people in the project here in the city are grateful and live their life as a respectful citizen, but then you have others who were handed a nice life for free and they crap all over it, they throw their garbage in the hallways of their buildings, they graffiti the halls, they vandalize what little personal property their neighbors have, they rob, they sell and do drugs, they victimize helpless people, but worst o all they create so much anger and bitterness within themselves by simply not taking a look at whatever good fortune and kindness has befallen them.


wow...

I was blessed this last year to live 2 months in a barrio of Phoenix, and visited some folks on the navajo reservation--not as someone there to "help" them, but simply as a resident, participating in the community. I learned a heck of a lot about "those people". I would choose those places any day, with the cement and garbage and roaches, over the upwardly mobile californicated american dream Stepford hoods. You treat people like human beings(with no expectation of some sort of return for your "efforts") you learn things.

I'm well aware not all strippers have hearts of gold, but neither do all preachers. And just as some preachers DO have hearts of gold, so do some strippers. 

Not to pick on you CB, but things you say here I've heard from all over, about "those people", "what" the problem is, what the solution is--if they'd only suck it up and make something of themselves. You might begin to understand if you know what it's like to wake up and be proud of yourself that you made it through the day without hooking. And I'm not just talking the usual.


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## elkhound

wyld thang said:


> wow...
> 
> I was blessed this last year to live 2 months in a barrio of Phoenix, and visited some folks on the navajo reservation--not as someone there to "help" them, but simply as a resident, participating in the community. I learned a heck of a lot about "those people". I would choose those places any day, with the cement and garbage and roaches, over the upwardly mobile californicated american dream Stepford hoods. You treat people like human beings(with no expectation of some sort of return for your "efforts") you learn things.
> 
> I'm well aware not all strippers have hearts of gold, but neither do all preachers. And just as some preachers DO have hearts of gold, so do some strippers.
> 
> Not to pick on you CB, but things you say here I've heard from all over, about "those people", "what" the problem is, what the solution is--if they'd only suck it up and make something of themselves. You might begin to understand if you know what it's like to wake up and be proud of yourself that you made it through the day without hooking. And I'm not just talking the usual.



ah....i aint to smart..but didnt you just say...walk a mile in my shoes thingy.


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## Groene Pionier

elkhound said:


> ah....i aint to smart..but didnt you just say...walk a mile in my shoes thingy.


hehehe and of course my favorite version is...

[youtube]5s98LA-_hkk[/youtube]


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## elkhound

there ya go green gurl being a thread jacker with ya videos....your name is on the misfit list now....lmao !!


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## Groene Pionier

elkhound said:


> there ya go green gurl being a thread jacker with ya videos....your name is on the misfit list now....lmao !!


rather be that, then be called a communist :spinsmiley:


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## elkhound

you can be anything ya want.......if you play nice i will share cookies and bring ya a load of free firewood....ooopss there i go being a communist,socialists or something..oh maybe i confused them words with being nice to my friends and neighbors.


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## Raven12

I'm a liberal who doesn't vote.


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## Evons hubby

I kinda fall into both barrels... I am a social liberal, (all about freedom) and a fiscal capitalist. (Its my money, I earned it, keep yer mitts off it) I tend to be generous with folks in need, but am very much opposed to having the federal government play middle man with my generosity. This goes back to that freedom to choose thing. I think I should be able to have some say in where my charity goes and where it doesnt. I also think folks should have the right to make their own choices.... as long as those choices dont interfere with the next fellers. I dont care how many kids you have, dont care what sorta plants you want to be friendly with, nor what kind of "poisons" you care to ingest, how many wives you think you can put up with.... or any of those other "moral" issues, as long as YOU are willing to pay for your own pleasures. That being said.... if your expenses exceed your ability to pay... dont come whining to me, and especially dont send some federal agent to my door to do your extorting for you.


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## Evons hubby

elkhound said:


> you can be anything ya want.......if you play nice i will share cookies and bring ya a load of free firewood....ooopss there i go being a communist,socialists or something..oh maybe i confused them words with being nice to my friends and neighbors.


Theres nothing wrong with donating a load of firewood, or a plate of cookies, (depending on the kind I might even have a few cookies if offered). This is friends and neighbor stuff. Socialism and Communism is demanding that load of firewood and insisting on the cookies.... and getting your government to extort them from your friends and neighbors.


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## City Bound

zong said:


> CB, man, you are in charge of your own life. You are living the life you made for yourself. If you want a different life, you are the one who has to make it happen. And it's the same for everybody else, too. I don't see that "struggling to maintain" It's all in your perceptions, I guess.


I know we all make our lives. I am making mine. What I mean by struggling is that most of are not getting by so easy, we get up and struggle each day to get done what needs to be done and many people are stuggling to pay the bills. That is what I mean by stuggling.


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## City Bound

Shy, I try in any small way that i can to make my life better every day. But honestly, are most of us going to be billionares or be famous even though we may wish we were? Like it or not we have our place in life, by choice or by personal limitations. Take for example the person who works really hard to improve themselves and to get ahead socially and materially, eventually they hit a wall and that is where they will stay unless they can get past it somehow. We can change our place in life, but we will always have a place. Some people no matter how hard they try get kicked right back down by life to the same place. I know, because that is what happened in my life. Eventually I relaized that the place life kept kicking me back down to is where I need to be, that is where my lessons are and my growth, and I personally feel it is god's love and wisdon that kept knocking me down to the same place in life. When I learn my lesson I can advance, but until then I am stuck. Like a video game, you can not get to level 3 i you have not beaten level 2.

Maybe "those" people do not know any better, but you know what I do not know any better ether it is only on rare occasions that life shows me a better way and offers me the chance to take it. I figure the same thing happen to "those" people now and then also. We are all prisoners in our ways but sometimes the prison is where we need to be. One great disadvantage for people on the system is that there is really no way for them to get off financially. They can not ease out of the system as they get on their feet. The system just kicks them off if they make too much so there is no safety net.


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## doodlemom

All I want to do is live a simple life and a simple life I live. :thumb:


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## Evons hubby

Raven12 said:


> I'm a liberal who doesn't vote.


 My favorite kind of liberal!


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## Evons hubby

City Bound said:


> We are all prisoners in our ways but sometimes the prison is where we need to be. One great disadvantage for people on the system is that there is really no way for them to get off financially. They can not ease out of the system as they get on their feet. The system just kicks them off if they make too much so there is no safety net.


A great many (if not most) of us build our own prisons. We need to make sure we built it so we are content with it. 

The so called safety net all too often becomes a hammock that prevents one from doing for themselves for fear of drowning.... when in reality the water isnt all that deep, they could usually just stand up and walk to shore.


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## Shygal

City Bound said:


> Shy, I try in any small way that i can to make my life better every day. But honestly, are most of us going to be billionares or be famous even though we may wish we were? Like it or not we have our place in life, by choice or by personal limitations.
> 
> Eventually I relaized that the place life kept kicking me back down to is where I need to be, that is where my lessons are and my growth, and I personally feel it is god's love and wisdon that kept knocking me down to the same place in life. When I learn my lesson I can advance, but until then I am stuck. Like a video game, you can not get to level 3 i you have not beaten level 2.


What makes you think being a billionaire or famous, is the "better" that people strive for? To me, better is getting 3 eggs from the chickens rather than the usual 2. Or finding a good parking space. Or seeing the patient that is finally going home smile and tell me that I was a lifesaver to them.
Not everything is financial or fame. 

and CB....you sometimes have the bleakest outlook on life. You let life happen to you, rather than make your life. Im surprised you believe that way about the "levels", considering your spirituality. God doesn't personally supervise our "levels", we do that ourselves.


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## sustainabilly

Hey City, for U.

[YOUTUBE]AtzIWPeun7c[/YOUTUBE]

I don't really think you're all _that_ f'd up, just huntin' answers. Chill dude. Answers have a way of avoiding our scrutiny when we look too hard. They come at a time and place of their _own_ choosing. For now, find your passion and wear it out.:buds:


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## City Bound

Most people want material security and comort that is why I mentioned a billionare. most peopel do not want to have to worry about money.

shy, I just think that when you invite the absolute divine into your life and you pray for help and guidance that sometimes the divine can kick a person over and over in the face until they get the message that they are too thick headed to get. It is a little bit of tough love. Maybe that sounds bleak, but eternity is a long time and the hardest lessons to learn take time. 


Thanks or the song billy.


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## Shygal

I don't believe in a god that would kick someone over and over in the face when they ask for help and guidance.


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## City Bound

ok......

how do thick people learn then? I am thick and I learn ether through the mercy and kindness of others or I learn when suffering exhausts my obstinance and vanity.


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## Shygal

How do thick people learn?  You think that god is causing you to learn by kicking you in the face? 

I learn by experiencing life. I learn by trying new things, going out and doing things. I don't sit back and expect the divine to run my life, that is not why we are here. Using the divine as a reason for when you succeed, is using the divine as an excuse for when you fail.


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## coolrunnin

I can't see blaming any of my missteps on a higher entity, pretty sure they all belong to me and if I choose not to learn from them the first guess I get what I deserve.


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## City Bound

shy I never said anything about a higher power running my life. I was just saying that when you make the personal choice to invite a higher power into your life and ask that higher power to help you transform yourself to realize your eternal potential that the love of that higher power does not always feel warm and fuzzy. There is an analogy offered of a musical horn or a bell. Without the skillfull hammering of the craftsman the musical qualities of the metal go unrealized. it is only through the skillfull bashing of the lame metal that the ability for it to sing and to sing in key is released. 

If the idea is not or you then that is fine.


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## City Bound

I think this "they" stuf was blown out of proportion. You made it sound all negative and violent when that was not my intent.


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## Guest

The 'Absolute Divine" was the stage name of a stripper in the 60's and 70's. I saw her In Boston's "Combat Zone" sometime in the early 70's at the Pilgrim Theater. Where Wilbur Mills broke bad. Anyway, she was kinda shopworn, but phenomenal muscle control. To this day, you cannot say what she done. It was that strange.


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