# holding back a wagon with no brakes



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I have a Standardbred, a full draft style harness, a farm wagon...... and horse experience. 

My little mare, just loves to drive, and pulls the wagon with several people on it no problem........

Anyhow, I would love to be able to haul my manure from the barn to the pasuture, I can load light that's not a problem. She could pull it, but my driveway is quite steep and I am concerned about her holding it back. The driveway is gravel, she is barefoot. She can hold the wagon back with two adults on it and does regularly. The wagon is an old hay wagon and has no brakes. Anyone have any ideas how to lighten the hold back? 

I was thinking of dragging a log? but then have to load it for the return trip, or a tractor tire, but that would be worse to reload. I saw pictures of skis or something that you put in front of the back tires, roll up on them and then drag the back wheels, but I can't find a picture or how they work. Does anyone know?
thanks,


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I think this is one of those times where can't easily bypass proper equipment. IMHO, put some brakes on the wagon.

The skis you speak of are chained to the front of the ski, two chains, run the chains up to the wagon. Flop the skis up onm the wagon when working on the level or going up. When you get ready to heah down hill, chuck the skis in front of the rear wheels. Ass the weagon goes forward, the rear wheel rides up onto the ski. The chains hold the ski from getting behind the wheel. The hay wagon cross support will have to take the strain of the ski rubbing against the gravel drive. Ski made of wood will wear through. Made of steel, it will screach loudly, possobly spooking the horse.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

I don't think a drag will help you much. Just have good breeching and holdback straps (no rotten leather!) and let her deal with it. I've had my horses really sit far back into the breeching (literally) quite often, but as long as they fully understand what they are being asked to do, she will probably be just fine. I'd suggest doing some very slow, steep hills unloaded first so she has the concept down pat. Work the hills one horse-step at a time so she has time to think about it. For training, I'm talking even so steep that she nearly has to plant and slide with her hind end really under her. But make sure she knows you won't ask more than she can do. Trust, as always is huge.

A big Standardbred should weigh at least 1000-1100 lb - granted, they don't have the lower center of gravity that a draft horse has, but she might just surprise you.

Besides, manure isn't usually as heavy as it looks unless it's really wet.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I was a little concerned about holding back when we first started hooking her. She retired as a three year old off the track. She had the pull no problem. But she never flinched a step when the breeching came tight. as far as the harness and hold backs go, the harness only a year or two old and is made of granite so it is pretty strong.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

minister man said:


> I was a little concerned about holding back when we first started hooking her. She retired as a three year old off the track. She had the pull no problem. But she never flinched a step when the breeching came tight. as far as the harness and hold backs go, the harness only a year or two old and is made of granite so it is pretty strong.


I'm going to have to agree with haypoint. Even if a horse doesn't flinch or act up, doesn't mean it's not physically hard on them.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

When the load and increasing slope gets near the danger point, a check engine light comes on and you simply stop, right?

In reality, none of us can accurately imagine the load, wagon, slope, trail surface, horse, horse's strength and temperament or skill of the teamster.

But, I do know that when that horse stumbles against that wagon load of manure, the next instant will haunt the driver the remainder of his life, if he survives the crash.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Wagon drag shoe. Only need 1....James

https://www.google.com/search?q=wag...e22oqLSAhUK42MKHT5KCSsQ7AkIKA&biw=911&bih=421


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Retired off the track at 3 years old. 

A lot of novices can handle a retired off the farm draft horse.
A few folks can handle a broke 3 year old draft horse or quarter horse.

Race horses are bred for a set of criteria. Bomb proof isn't on the list. Over and over, I see draft horses that get wrapped up in harness and lines and they just lay there, waiting to be untangled. Conversely, I've seen saddle horses get into a jam and they thrash to near death. I'd refrain from activities that light the fuse to a catastrophe.

A simple stage coach style rub the tire brake would be easy to build.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I never said anything about being a novice....I got my first belgum filly when I was 14. There has only been one day from that day to this day that is didn't own a horse. As a teen/ young adult, one of my job's was to horse hoe with the team, and cultivate with a single horse acres or garden a year..... and yes one of those horses was my filly which we broke ourselves. I yarded with the single horse in the winter. I raised two welsh ponies from foals, and broke them myself to work single and double. One of them was a real good yarding pony. We have broke two saddle horses ourselves. I currently have 5 horses including a stallion........ But none of the farm equipement ever had brakes, and we lived on a hillside often loading 60-80 square bales of hay on the wagon, and bringing it off the hill with the team. But it was a much bigger hill so we sort of circled the hill, going back and forth so it was as straight down. I don't have the room to do that where the driveway is.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

When I had my small team I removed the spindles from the back of an old wagon, welded in a trailer axle with brakes and used a pedal and brake cylinder from an old car. Even plumbed in a 1/4 turn valve as an emergency brake, push the brake down, turn the valve and lock the brakes....James


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I hadn't thought of using a trailer axle as a back axle.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

minister man said:


> I never said anything about being a novice....I got my first belgum filly when I was 14. There has only been one day from that day to this day that is didn't own a horse. As a teen/ young adult, one of my job's was to horse hoe with the team, and cultivate with a single horse acres or garden a year..... and yes one of those horses was my filly which we broke ourselves. I yarded with the single horse in the winter. I raised two welsh ponies from foals, and broke them myself to work single and double. One of them was a real good yarding pony. We have broke two saddle horses ourselves. I currently have 5 horses including a stallion........ But none of the farm equipement ever had brakes, and we lived on a hillside often loading 60-80 square bales of hay on the wagon, and bringing it off the hill with the team. But it was a much bigger hill so we sort of circled the hill, going back and forth so it was as straight down. I don't have the room to do that where the driveway is.


Well, heck Ministerman, you should be givin' the advice., with that wealth of knowledge shouldn't be any more to learn.
I never said you were a novice. Never said your had an old quiet horse either. If'in you'd get to line three before you assume I'm insulting you, you'd likely be able to get the gist of what I'm a sayin.

Don't really matter much how many hours you've spent staring at a horses tail, when a frightened race horse goes into flight mode, plan B better be solid.

The point where a big load is too much is difficult to determine. With your expert teamster skills, daily use of this horse in draft, knowing the lay of the land, full understanding of the weight you'd be shoveling onto the wagon, you started this thread worried about when is too much to much?

If you are holding all the cards and can't tell, my lame suggestions based entirely on speculation is worthless. 

I could tell you to pull a couple ton of manure down the hill, get the little mare to plant her hind feet under her and slide, like Man from Snowy River and enjoy the ride. But I won't. I've seen wrecks. No one saw it coming. I'll sleep better if I discourage you from pushing your luck and you get insulted. Better than encouraging you to get into a wreck.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I never said I was insulted. Since you don't know me from Adam you would have no way of knowing if I have ever seen a horse before. I was just saying that isn't the case. I have done a lot of different things with horses. I have had one wreck training a colt, when he reared and fell over backwards in the shafts. That was a mess. Anyhow, I wasn't explaining my "resume" to be rude or because I am insulted, but to simply add some context to the question.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

Having used a few OTT Standardbreds in my day - actually have owned and driven them continuously for the past 30 years, I agree that the "racehorse" thing can be a problem. At first. Nice thing about most Standardbreds is that they have incredibly sound minds, and the horses are amazing natural survivors. You never saw a wreck until you've seen one on a harness track!  That memory tends to stay with humans AND horses. A Stdbd with track experience learns how to stay out of trouble.

I start one out teaching how to use themselves between the shafts, as most have no clue of their actual strength or how to bend and flex - it's all "straight ahead" and little "stop and think". And yep, have done "The Man from Snowy River" thang many times with my guys cross country - huffing up duney-type deep footing hills (I teach them to do hills in harness so they learn to FINALLY engage/flex their backs - often a major soundness issue for OTT Stdbds) and @$$-sliding back down so they learn about "brakes". They eat it up in big gulps and ask for more!  Standardbreds are incredible natural athletes. No show ponies in the lot - bred and culled for hundreds of years for performance ONLY. I frankly know of no other breed that can claim that.

I have chatted here with Minister Man before about different topics related to Stdbds, so I give him lots of credit for having the experience he has, and the judgement not to overload his mare. Just saying that a Stdbd with good basics who trusts her driver can do a lot more than most people think.


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