# CAE question



## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

I have heard that CAE can't live long outside of the goat but when I read about CAE, I never see anything about that. 
Is there a documented source somewhere that specifically does or does not support this?


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

Cae is spread threw body fluids , colustrum milk you get the picture. Now that being said there is a slight chance of blood to blood exposure ...say 2 does were head butting ..both broke there skin and drew blood.


Patty


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## luvzmybabz (Sep 8, 2008)

I have been researching this like crazy.......They say that it can not usually be passed through contact even breeding however what about the pee thing if doe is pos and buck drinks pee. It is passed in the white blood cells and I have heard of people passing cells through urine wondering about goats?


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

The latest information I read was from WSU and said that sexual transmission *has not been studied*.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

Ok, I've read everything I can find on it, I know how it is spread. My question is: How long does CAE virus live in/on the outside environment? Such as feeders, walls, etc. if transmission is possible from saliva, blood, or birthing fluids and discharge. Doe the virus die when fluids dry up or does it live on surfaces for a week, a year, 5 years? 
In all my readings I can't find anything about this specifically.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

the virus is very short living outside it's environment which is white blood cells.
if the fluid drys up, the virus dies too. plain soapy water kills it too.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

Thank you. Now, how do you know this because I can't find anything about that?  It's not that I don't believe you, I just have to see something in "writing" like from a study or something. 



susanne said:


> the virus is very short living outside it's environment which is white blood cells.
> if the fluid drys up, the virus dies too. plain soapy water kills it too.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

that was one of the questions i had when i talked to dr everman from waddl.
you might want to call and ask? he is very friendly and helpful, never too tired to answer any question


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

You're the third person to mention him and BioTracking was one of the others and said he's one of the best resources they know on CAE. 
Thank you - again!



susanne said:


> that was one of the questions i had when i talked to *dr everman *from waddl.
> you might want to call and ask? he is very friendly and helpful, never too tired to answer any question


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Doesn't live outside the body, huh? How many breeders here would like to use some frozen colostrum or milk from a positive doe to feed their bottle babies? No takers? Yeah, me either. 

The best policy with CAE is simply to never ever, buy a positive animal and keep a closed herd. If you show, take every possible precaution against your does being in direct contact with others, particularly in regard to other milk.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

First of all, dried up is not the same as frozen. Second, my question had nothing to do with whether or not to buy a positive animal or whether to use frozen colostrum from a positive doe. I have read everything I can find about CAE and I'm aware of the precautions, prevention, etc. But thanks anyway.




Helianthus said:


> Doesn't live outside the body, huh? How many breeders here would like to use some frozen colostrum or milk from a positive doe to feed their bottle babies? No takers? Yeah, me either.
> 
> The best policy with CAE is simply to never ever, buy a positive animal and keep a closed herd. If you show, take every possible precaution against your does being in direct contact with others, particularly in regard to other milk.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Your original question was whether it can live outside the goat for any length of time. Whoever wrote that woudl certainly have a hard time getting a person to risk their herd for it. 

On fences, etc, it's not an issue, but really, in this regard, CL is far more dangerous and can live for a very, very long time in wood. 

The WSU website seems to be good, but just like HIV, the best course is to not get it anywhere near your herd in the first place. All the prevention stuff only comes into play if you have an open herd or if the animals came from a questionable source to begin with. Sort of like how you don't need to use condoms to prevent HIV if you're ina monogamous relationship with another negative person, you don't actually need the prevention system with all the bottle feeding, pasteurizing, etc etc, if your first animals are *definitely* negative from a herd in which *everything* has repeatedly tested negative over a span of years...and of course the test results in such a case are only as good as the integrity of the breeder. 

The reason I'm saying all this is because I really got screwed by buying a doeling that was raised on the prevention system. I don't know if she got it in-utero or what, but she certainly turned positive, and my animals had been negative for almost ten years.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

I don't even know what you're talking about in this statement, it doesn't even make sense.
As for the rest of your post, again, it has nothing to do whatsoever with my orginal question. I KNOW what CAE is all about. Stick to the context of the question if you would.



Helianthus said:


> Your original question was whether it can live outside the goat for any length of time. *Whoever wrote that woudl certainly have a hard time getting a person to risk their herd for it.*
> 
> On fences, etc, it's not an issue, but really, in this regard, CL is far more dangerous and can live for a very, very long time in wood.
> 
> ...


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Here is your quote. 



KimM said:


> I have heard that CAE can't live long outside of the goat but when I read about CAE, I never see anything about that.
> Is there a documented source somewhere that specifically does or does not support this?


And my reply is: *WHOEVER IT WAS THAT SAID CAE CAN'T LIVE OUTSIDE THE BODY DOESN'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.* I certainly hope nobody takes them seriously because if people act on that assumption, diseased goats will result. 

Mentioning WSU was a direct response to your request for a source. 

Mentioning CL was a tangent because people frequently get CAE and CL confused. One lives in wood, soil, etc for extended lengths of time, the other doesnn't, and they both start with a capital C. For beginners, they are very easy to confuse. 

And I will repeat, because it's a free country: the bottom line with CAE is not to bring it into your herd to begin with.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

I guess you must be referring to Dr. Everman at WSU who I've been told by several people, including someone from BioTracking, "Dr. Everman is probably one of the best resources that I know of concerning this disease." So I guess you know more than he does? Hmm. Maybe you can offer documented proof of YOUR claim?? I'm more than happy to read anything you can produce that specifies what I asked. 





Helianthus said:


> Here is your quote.
> 
> And my reply is: *WHOEVER IT WAS THAT SAID CAE CAN'T LIVE OUTSIDE THE BODY DOESN'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.* I certainly hope nobody takes them seriously because if people act on that assumption, diseased goats will result.
> 
> ...


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

If you will please clarify and reiterate what you wanted to know (because I mistakenly thought you wanted to know if it could live outside the body or not, and apparently I was wrong) and then clarify what you think I claimed, I will be happy to provide sources. I think a misunderstanding has occurred somewhere.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

1. Read my first post.
2. You stated: _"And my reply is: WHOEVER IT WAS THAT SAID CAE CAN'T LIVE OUTSIDE THE BODY DOESN'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. I certainly hope nobody takes them seriously because if people act on that assumption, diseased goats will result."_
If Dr. Everman doesn't know what he's talking about and you do, post something that backs up your claim. I'm sure that if you're right, we would all benefit from some documentation. I don't take very many people's word for anything, I'm looking for facts. I'm am presently awaiting an email from Dr. Everman.





Helianthus said:


> If you will please clarify and reiterate what you wanted to know (because I mistakenly thought you wanted to know if it could live outside the body or not, and apparently I was wrong) and then clarify what you think I claimed, I will be happy to provide sources. I think a misunderstanding has occured somewhere.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

I don't think you will ever find a quote from Dr Evermann or any other reputable person saying that CAE can't live outside the body. If you do, please post that. WSU is very on top of things and has been recommending using heat treated colostrum and milk for years. If CAE couldn't survive for long outside the body, there would be no need to heat treat the milk. 

Anyway, I have a list of sources...

http://www.ifi-us.com/CAE.html

It has been noted that the major mode of transmission of CAE is orally to kids via consumption of virus-infected goat colostrum or milk (1). Other possible modes of transmission include feed bunks or waterers, reuse of needles used for vaccinations, contaminated equipment such as disbudding irons or tatooing pliers. So, horizontal transmission is possible and likely if CAE infected animals are housed with CAE free animals. Even aerosol exposure by sneezing or coughing is suspect.
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http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/55000.htm

The chief mode of spread of CAE is through ingestion of virus-infected goat colostrum or milk by kids. The feeding of pooled colostrum or milk to kids is a particularly risky practice, because a few infected does will spread the virus to a large number of kids. Horizontal transmission also contributes to disease spread within herds and may occur through direct contact, exposure to fomites at feed bunks and waterers, ingestion of contaminated milk in milking parlors, or serial use of needles or equipment contaminated with blood. 
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http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/caefaq.aspx

1. What are the major means of spread of the virus?
The CAE virus is primarily transmitted to kids via colostrum in the first few feedings after birth. Blood (e.g., contaminated instruments such as needles, dehorners, etc, and open wounds) is regarded as the second most common way of spread. Contact transmission between adult goats is considered to be rare except during lactation.
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That last sentence makes me laugh. Except during lactation??? Good dairy goats are in lactation 10 months out of the year! 
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http://www.vet.uga.edu/VPP/clerk/logan/index.php

Viral transmission usually occurs horizontally through the ingestion of viral-infected goat milk and/or goat colostrum.1,13 Other potential sources of viral transmission include transmission in utero; contact with the vagina of an infected doe during parturition; via saliva or respiratory secretions; via contact with infected blood; viral contamination of milking equipment, needles, tattooing equipment; and breeding an infected animal with a non-infected animal.1

CAE virus infects goats primarily by horizontal transmission via ingestion of infected colostrum or infected milk. The virus is absorbed across the small intestine and infects the mononuclear cells.3,16 There is also transmission of CAE virus by direct contact between goats via shedding of the virus in the saliva, the urogenital secretions, and the feces. Contact with the blood of an infected animal can also transmit the disease.9 Some sources speculate in utero or vertical transmission; however, studies to date have not documented this form of viral transmission.
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Efficient replication of caprine arthritis-encephalitis virus in goat granulosa cells 

Ali Lamara, Francis Fienia, Laila Mselli-Lakhalb, Daniel Tainturiera and Yahia Cheblouneb

Furthermore, given the high seroprevalence of CAEV in the all industrialised countries and the large number of ovaries derived from unknown serological status animals used for in vitro goat embryo production, one can conclude that these feeder cell cultures might be a potential source of early transmission of CAEV to goat embryos.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Helianthus said:


> I don't think you will ever find a quote from Dr Evermann or any other reputable person saying that CAE can't live outside the body. If you do, please post that. WSU is very on top of things and has been recommending using heat treated colostrum and milk for years. If CAE couldn't survive for long outside the body, there would be no need to heat treat the milk.
> 
> *Anyway, I have a list of sources...*


NOW THAT IS ONE RESPECTABLE POST!!! When a poster makes a statement of fact, my mind screams for the source. :clap: Good work Helianthus. I believe that this post provides the requested sources asked for by the OP.

I appreciate this post. :goodjob: Paul


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

somebody seems to have too much time on hand. 
it is kidding season 
still my reply stands, 
the virus is very short living outside it's environment which is white blood cells (found in colostrum/milk and body fluids). 
that is exactly what you can find in literature and what john everman will tell you. 
of course we can play words all day and say but he said she said


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

susanne said:


> somebody seems to have too much time on hand.
> it is kidding season
> still my reply stands,
> the virus is very short living outside it's environment which is white blood cells (found in colostrum/milk and body fluids).
> ...


Susanne, with all due respect, the term "very short living" doesn't say anything to me. These adjective terms are only valid if used relative to something else. For me it isn't a play on words but the use of words that can mean different things to different people based on their individual viewpoint. 

English has a way sounding concrete when in fact it is nebulous. (or should I say "very nebulous" to give nebulous more meaning but still adds nothing to the word) 


Paul


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

I don't have goats right now, so no kidding season for me. 
It's spring break, so I do have more time than usual on my hands for the next day or three. Next week I'll be mostly gone. 

Thanks Paul. I just hate to see anyone lose goats (like I did) to CAE.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

Sorry Nowhereland, but not one of your sources can answer this question. - _"Doe the virus die when fluids dry up or does it live on surfaces for a week, a year, 5 years?" _ Keep digging. 




Helianthus said:


> I don't think you will ever find a quote from Dr Evermann or any other reputable person saying that CAE can't live outside the body. If you do, please post that. WSU is very on top of things and has been recommending using heat treated colostrum and milk for years. If CAE couldn't survive for long outside the body, there would be no need to heat treat the milk.
> 
> Anyway, I have a list of sources...
> 
> ...


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

My name is Helianthus, formerly Chamoisee, formerly the founder and mod of this dairygoat forum. You keep changing the target question, I won't play anymore. Go abuse Dr Evermann and see how he responds to that. I'm done.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

LaManchaPaul said:


> Susanne, with all due respect, the term "very short living" doesn't say anything to me. These adjective terms are only valid if used relative to something else. For me it isn't a play on words but the use of words that can mean different things to different people based on their individual viewpoint.
> 
> English has a way sounding concrete when in fact it is nebulous. (or should I say "very nebulous" to give nebulous more meaning but still adds nothing to the word)
> 
> ...


paul how long does it take until fluids are dried out? 
depending on the amount i would say seconds to .....? very nebulous  
i did not want to repeat the whole first response to the OP but i said there after the fluid dries up, the virus will expire. 

do we have something in the air? weather change maybe? 
maybe it is the fall back to freezing temps that get people moody
hoping for spring and warmer weather


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

helianthus you need some goats 
i started very late in life with my goats and hope i will never be without them for the reminding time i have on earth.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

susanne said:


> helianthus you need some goats
> i started very late in life with my goats and hope i will never be without them for the reminding time i have on earth.


I love this... it was a typo, I'm sure, but it's wonderful.

The REMINDING time I have on earth.

Yup, we all need to be reminded.
:clap:


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

Susanne, you're the only one who actually told me what I wanted to know. I just wanted something from Helianthus to support what she/he was claiming. I don't care either way, I just want something substantial for an answer instead of dancing 'round and 'round. I do tend to get moody when someone throws out a lot of what I didn't ask for and had stated I already knew. 

And Helianthus, I know you're trying to be helpful but, IMO, you have a somewhat insulting way of going about it. Thank you for your efforts but I will wait for Dr. Everman's reply and with his permission, post his reply.

Enjoy the day.:cowboy:




susanne said:


> paul how long does it take until fluids are dried out?
> depending on the amount i would say seconds to .....? very nebulous
> i did not want to repeat the whole first response to the OP but i said there after the fluid dries up, the virus will expire.
> 
> ...


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I love this... it was a typo, I'm sure, but it's wonderful.
> 
> The REMINDING time I have on earth.
> 
> ...


alice i'm german and english only my second language. needed to read it five times until i realized what i did wrong of course i meant *remaining* time.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Well, I thought it was great. Some folks need to be reminded that we are all doing the best we can.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Helianthus said:


> I don't have goats right now, so no kidding season for me.
> It's spring break, so I do have more time than usual on my hands for the next day or three. Next week I'll be mostly gone.
> 
> Thanks Paul. I just hate to see anyone lose goats (like I did) to CAE.


 Whew. :stars: Sometimes the more one helps the less it is helpful.

I've got a little earless wonder out at the barn who loves for me to hold & pet and love up on him; and he always understands exactly what I say to him - or if not, at least doesn't argue. Sometimes I seem to use my goats more than they use me.
Paul


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