# :( Beyond upset - Stupid, Stupid Australian Shepherds and horns



## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

We have four Australian Shepherds. We've raised these stupid older two with goats and goat kids. They are 8 months old now.
Tonight, our smallest and cutest pygmy doe apparently, for the first time, got stuck with her head through the fence and the two older Aussies nearly killed her - I didn't see it. My husband found her with the two older right there by her. He said it was gruesome, but she wasn't dead, so he came down, told me and went back and shot her :'(
She was the sweetest little goat. I can't bear the thought of her stuck and them slowly killing her. I can't stand it. If he'd caught them in the act, I am sure he'd have shot the stupid dogs. They had been such good dogs prior to this. Great with my 8 yr old son and all.
They do snap at the goats when around them, but they haven't bitten them or be very aggressive at all - I took the snapping as their way of herding them, not real aggression, but I was wrong, obviously.
I have emailed tons of rescues tonight and one will take them ASAP.

This also, naturally, turns me totally against horns. In two years, we've NEVER had a Pygmy get caught in the fence with horns - they are the only ones with horns - the Nubians are disbudded and always will be, as will the Kinders. Now, we will have any born here that are Pygmy or whatever disbudded for sure. Goodness! 

This is the first goat we've lost since getting them two years ago. :'(

This also makes me want to get a Great Pyrenees because I think surely he/she would have protected Nell from the other dogs. Am I right?








Poor little Nell with her doeling from October.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

I'm so sorry that happened. Poor little Nell, she was really a cutie. I can't imagine how you must be feeling. I know I would have shot the dogs myself without a minute's hesitation, that's one breed I don't get along with. I'm not sure about LGD's but I would think that one might not stop an attack if the attacking dog is one that lives there and could possibly teach or encourage the LGD to not do it's job. I'm sure someone with more LGD experience can better answer. I suppose it depends on the individual LGD.
How far are you from Parkersburg? I'm about an hour north. You could come up and watch me disbud when it's time, if it isn't too far.
Do you still have Nell's doeling?


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

This is absolutely terrible! I am so sorry for your loss. I know I would cry my eyes out if I lost a single one of my babies. I can't imagine knowing they had gone in a painful way. After the 'accident' with the two pygmies here, where they were way overburned disbudding, it makes you think if we should be dehorning goats... but then you know the risks with leaving the horns  

It just sucks. These are the things that are bad about life, there is just no way to escape it. Know way of knowing. I'm so sorry!


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I am sorry you lost that doe. She was very pretty. I hope you still have her doeling, she is too cute. 

It depends on the LGD, my 2 yr old would have kicked the dogs butt. He knows my house dogs and gets along well with them. My 12 yr old Border Collie mix has never looked at a goat crossed eyed, she actually avoids them. One day as she was going back inside a kid did not see her heading toward the door he was sleeping near, got scared and yelled. My LGD was on her "correcting" her. He did not hurt her but she has not forgiven him and walks around him in a large circle. My other one is more happy go lucky and is only 10 months old so he just looked up, and went back to sleep. 
I do have a deaf Aussie puppy and have been worried that he will try to herd the goats. The goats have taken to charging toward him so he runs back to me and hides behind my legs. I hope it stays that way.

As far as the horns on any remaining goats, you can cut X's in tennis balls put them on their horns and duct tape them. Or you can use a 6 to 12 inch piece of small PVC pipe and tape that crosswise to their horns. I did that to one buck I had with horns as he keep trying to stick his head through the fence to get at the girls.


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

Sorry about your doe. All Aussies aren't like that. My friend has two that never hurt the baby goats she brings into the house. One is actually very protective of them. You just can't leave Aussies or Border Collies in a pen with goats because they are herding dogs and will run them. I wouldn't have trusted a LGD not to join those Aussies in attacking the goat. Pack mentality can make dogs do things they would not do alone. I lost a baby Pygmy cross several years ago when an Aussie and a Border Collie X German Shepherd got in with my kids. The older kids weren't hurt. Most jumped the fence but the baby couldn't. The dogs belonged to two of my neighbors. Neither of those dogs messed with livestock when they were alone, but together they got crazy. I put up a higher fence. What happened to this goat is one big reason I won't have horns in my herd.


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

I think you have a difficult decision to make, and it has nothing to do with horns.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I am so so Sorry for your loss. What a terrible thing to go through.
Maybe she was trying to get away from the dog's, it's hard to say why she got stuck in the fence. They may have actually been trying to free her to begin with & make her go with the other goats you just will not know. I wouldn't have Aussies or cattle dogs with my goats either, it seems like there was someone else here that had a similar problem with their dogs.

Glad that hopefully they will go to someone else that has a better setup for that type of dog.

I have to say though my goats have horns & I don't have a problem with them. Maybe it's a difference in fencing or something.


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## prairiedog (Jan 18, 2007)

Well I have border collies and I wouldn't use them as LGD's they are herding dogs whole different set of instincts. They don't get in with the livestock if I want protection I would get a regular LGD dog like a pyr or anatolian. My collies have been raise around the stock too but they love to get them running if given the chance and will nip at them. Goats don't herd well.


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## FarmerChick (Dec 28, 2009)

you have dog problems
not goats with horns problems
but you can easily duct tape a pvc pipe to the horns and it deters the goat


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Feb 17, 2003)

deineria said:


> We have four Australian Shepherds. We've raised these stupid older two with goats and goat kids. They are 8 months old now.
> 
> If he'd caught them in the act, I am sure he'd have shot the stupid dogs.
> 
> ...


Point ONE: They are not ADULTS, they are 8 mo old PUPPIES. With NO training it sounds like if you did not know what they were or were not capable of. You have FOUR and you use them as LGD? Get to know your breeds, let the rescue take them ALL away to someone who will train them and be responsible.

Point TWO: He did NOT catch them in the act. So it is possible they were doing what they were bred to do, ie MOVE livestock with the HELP of a master. Since they were alone with the goats and you were not around and they are PUPPIES, they did their job, move the goat away from the fence and back into the herd. Its stuck by its horns, well how is a puppy suppose to know that, that is the masters job.

Point Three: They are normal HERDING dogs. Yes everything you saw points to a great dog in my book, including the "attack"

Point Four: Do Not, I repeat do NOT get a Great Pyrenees and expect anything different unless you. A. Know the breed, and get it from a breeder who cares about who has their animals B. TRAIN IT, this does not mean putting it out in a field and letting it be wild and "doing what comes naturally" and C. NEVER let your child near a LGD who you are not 110% sure is a safe and trusting animal. Or you will be shooting a dog that attacks humans.

I'm sorry you lost your doe, but you need to take responsibility for the fact that the dogs were doing what they are bred to do. I trained 100's of dogs, have worked with breeds that are not normal herding breeds and they all became amazing partners on the farms they were working on. You want that amazing dog that fulfills the farm dog dream in your mind. "Lassie", well it takes work. Mr. Weatherwax spent 24/7 with Pal.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

There are more than a few points I need to clarify, I see. When I posted this last night - I hadn't gotten a clear story from my husband. He had just come in, got the gun and went out to shoot and bury Nell. 

These dogs were not bought to be LGDs. They were not housed with the goats. The fence was such they would not get in with the goats because I did not want to herding them to death. These dogs were bought to be guard type dogs to alert us to people around the property, which they do, and to be pets and help to herding when the animals are loose. That is what they have been for us. At approx. 8 months old or a bit older, they have been out of their puppy type stage for some time. The 6 month old minis, which did not have anything to do with the attack, from what my husband can tell, do still act like puppies. The full sized Aussies have adult mentalities and have been that way for a few months.
I am not new to these breeds or other breeds. I've had large dogs, GSD, Pyrs (not used for guarding in the past however), Aussies, Border Collies, and many other larger breeds used for herding and guarding in the past. I've had many dog with livestock and small animals. I grew up with a farm and dogs of all sorts coming and going. I have NEVER had a dog attack and kill anything larger than a chicken. It is not normal behavior, with or without training. I have had too many dogs to not know this for a fact. Domestic dogs do not usually - without training even - usually attack animals nearly as big as they are and tear them apart.

This doe was stuck with her head in the fence and the dogs nearly tore her head off from the outside - my husband said her ears were gone and she was mutilated beyond description. We have no other dogs around here. Nothing else could have done this, and he caught the male Aussie there and immediately the female ran over the start it up with him. I know they weren't protecting her because they have never behaved toward them or the other animals with a protection based attitude. They have herded them for us when we've let them out to be free range and with supervision, and they have done a good job. Always quickly, efficiently and to where they needed to get them. They have been used to herd our heifer, horses and llama also. They have never been friendly with these animals or protective of them, and I didn't expect that, but they have never attacked them or bite at them - just herd type nips to get them moving - nothing more - but this was always with supervision. My husband found the male Aussie there with Nell - he didn't catch him trying the kill her - he was guarding her like a dog does its food- on the outside of the fence. At no time did they get in the fence.

They have dragged deer carcasses in throughout the fall and winter. I assumed they had found these from hunters leaving the body and taking just the head, etc. That might have given them the desire to kill the goats. I don't know.
These HAVE NOT been unsocialized dogs. They know basic commands and have been wonderful with my son and he is out with them all of the time. They have free run of the property, but they sleep on our porch.
These dogs have not been irresponsibly kept by people unfamiliar with the breed. I know what they are good for and how to deal with them, and until now, they had done well. 
Because this happened, I assume the goats need protection from dogs - incase any ever do wander in- and the LGD would be in the pen with the goats. We have a llama, but this wasn't a situation that she'd have been helpful in, obviously. If a LGD wouldn't protect the goats in situations like this, I would like to know how they could be of any use "protecting livestock." 
How anyone read my initial post and saw anyone here acted irresponsibly is beyond my comprehension. The initial post needed to be made more clear because it shouldn't have indicated these dogs have been ill trained or not well kept by uninformed owners. I never meant to make it appear they were intended to be LGD, kept with these goats in their pen or never trained to herd and do a job here. At any rate, the older two will be going to a rescue. I wouldn't consider keeping them. I hate this happened because they are GOOD dogs with people and good with large livestock. They do what we needed them to do and are great pets; however, after this, there is no way to be sure another goat will not get out and be killed or stick its head through, etc.

Also, I have also been a person who felt goats were fine with horns and without - whatever ones preference is. That is why I didn't disbud the Pygmy goats. I hadn't had a problem. But I have had one now. Had Nell been able to get her head back through the fence, she would be alive and well now - Period, no question about that. The dogs probably were inspired to start attacking her when she got caught and thrashed about trying to get free. The horns are
the reason she is dead because had she been disbudded, she would have not been caught. The fence is large woven wire fence. I can tell you I've had them in this type of fence for over 2 years with no problem, but NOW there was a problem, so I will not have a goat kid born here that isn't disbudded. I hope anyone with goats with horns never has such a thing happen. I know it was just a chance thing, but since it occurred, I'd be unable to risk it again.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Well, our neighbor just left. He came up to tell me the dogs had another goat down attacking her that had gotten out of the kidding shed, and he ran them off and put her back in. We just checked on her, and she just looks roughed up.
He said all four were attacking her, but it looked like the older two were the main pursuers, but who knows. 
The main rescue for this area of the US called me and has made arrangements to take the full sized ones Monday, so it looks like they will have to be up in a stall in the barn until then. I'd hope to keep the others, but if that happened, who knows. I hate this.


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## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

I really am sorry to hear of your loss. I own a full blooded red tri aussie that is 4 yrs old, she tried once to herd my goats, goats werent going for it. I can not let any of my dogs out alone with the goats cause my goats will kill the dog. But my hyper active, barky 4 yr old, drive you crazy aussie does great around my chickens....She wasnt raised on a farm met her first chicken and goat 7 months ago, very strong herding instinct, BUT one time Sugar wouldnt leave my aussie alone and Sugar got Blossom backed into a corner and only then did Blossom snap back. But you know what...even then she didnt draw blood, I wasnt home at the time and my daughter had let the dogs out with the goats (airheads r my daughters)! So dont know what to tell ya breeding, instinct, age hard to say. Bet though pack mentality had a lot to do with your fatality.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Yes, after the neighbor told me all 4 were at the goat today - then I assume the pack mentality must have been the cause, but I still feel that most well socialized dogs wouldn't have torn a goat to bit - even in a pack, and the two minis that are younger have been well trained, inside/outside dogs - very much pets and raised inside with children, so I am just shocked.


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## madness (Dec 6, 2006)

(((HUGS))) I wish you didn't have to defend yourself in this thread deineria. And really, you don't. Even from the first post, it's obvious you are upset and remorseful for what happened - whether you could have prevented it or not! Nothing in the original post made it sound like a neglectful situation, just a tragic accident. So sorry you lost your doe - and give that neighbor some pie! Good to have kind people like that around.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

It's because of the very well socialized dogs we bought our lgd's. They are worse than the wild animals around here. 

IMO your best off to send at least 3 of the dogs off to another non livestock home, unless the new owner is capable of training them as herders. Perhaps 1 can be trained to gather your goats from the field, if you took the time to train it, one on one no pack scenario. If you get an lgd he/she should not be around the aussie at least until fully trained at 2+ years.

At first I thought your dogs may have been trying to "help" the goat get unstuck, but after your neighbor saw them this is definately not not the case. 

I'd get rid of the dogs, they don't belong. I've very unforgiving when man's best friend turns on domesticated livestock.
HF


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## Oakshire_Farm (Dec 4, 2008)

If they are attacking the goats I would not even bother with the rescue! Once they have the taste for blood, what is next a cat or a kid!!! I strongly think that once a dog gets a taste for blood even if you remove it from the pack it WILL attack again! If they were my dogs ALL would be put down! I am not willing to take the chance with my animals that something would happen if I am away. 

I am sorry that you lost your little Nell, she looks like a sweety.


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

Not attacking at all. There are just certain breeds suited to certain jobs, and bred for their "purpose" for thousands of yrs. Yes you will always find the rare exception, but why tempt fate. 
Sorry you had to learn such a difficult lesson.
Herding breeds should come with a disclaimer tattooed on them. This happens so often bc people in general just aren't familiar enough with the natures of different breeds of dogs, and just how set in stone those natures are.
ie: MY dogs will be different, they would never do such and such....


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

The thing I hoped to point out was simply that I bought them for herding and as guard type dogs around the house. They have done this well. They herd well. The really need no additional training with herding. They haven't been allowed with the goats in their pen. I had no way to know that a goat would get stuck in the fence and the dogs would kill her as a result. I can't imagine having a reason with any amount of knowledge that would impart that suspicion.
Herding instinct wouldn't have been a reason to attack a trapped animal. I don't think 
the fact they are Aussies and herd dogs would explain to attack on a non moving animal - but maybe. Still, I took as many precautions as possible to keep the goats away from the Aussies unless we watched them when the goats have been turned out.
They have always rounded them up and gotten them back into the pen when we've asked them to.
The rescue didn't feel the dogs attacking the goat as anything to do with placing them and neither do I. I still feel very safe with them around people and children. I was severely attacked by a Malmute as a child, so I am aware of the dangers first hand when a dog isn't people friendly, but just as when a dog kills a chicken, for example, usually you find the dog will continue to kill chickens, but if you remove them from the temptation, they are great. I think that when they are removed from goats, there shouldn't be a problem. 
The rescue evaluates all their dogs for an extensive period while they are in foster, so I feel safe with them being placed that way. 

I am just not sure about the minis now. They are about 25 lbs right now at 6 months, and by themselves, they probably can't do much harm, but I am just not certain. Maybe when the older dogs are placed, they will be okay. A rescue for Minis is willing to take them, but I'm not sure yet. The larger dogs are 50-60 lbs verses these other being 25-30 lbs. They behave more like yappy house dogs than herding dogs.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

""Herding breeds should come with a disclaimer tattooed on them. This happens so often bc people in general just aren't familiar enough with the natures of different breeds of dogs, and just how set in stone those natures are.
ie: MY dogs will be different, they would never do such and such.... ""



Yes, you see this all the time, despite all the warnings on the lists & websites. 
HF


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## kreddish (Mar 17, 2009)

So, so sorry


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I cannot imagine the heartache you are feeling. I am so sorry.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I'm sorry, how awful.

Herding instinct is an augmented prey drive. Leaving a herding animal with what they herd (which is still prey when you get down to it) is taking a chance, especially when the dogs are still babies. A dog hasn't had a chance to prove themself, really, until they are 2 yrs old.

I had a border collie kill a chicken before I was told this. She "herded" them. Well, they will herd them and herd them until they catch up to it finally and then "now what?". So they do what comes natural without someone there to prevent that behavior.


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## Cheribelle (Jul 23, 2007)

In my experience, it doesn't matter what kind of dogs these were. This is not "herding instinct" it was "kill the weak" instinct. The goat got her head stuck, probably bleated and cried out, and the dogs went in for the kill. That's just a pack mentality that I have seen before. I had to put down 2 of my own dogs a couple years ago, same thing. Goat bleeting, dogs move in. They were spared the first time, I thought it was a fluke. But once they kill, that's it. I caught them in the act the next time, thank goodness for the goat, but the 2 very beloved dogs had to go. This is a farm. 
I even saw some dogs once, running across a street. The car ahead of me hit one of them, it ran off in a panic, and the rest attacked and killed it. Dogs are pack animals, brutal, primitive. 
No I am not a dog hater, I have 5. And much more secure fences. Sorry you lost your little cutie, mark my vote for No Horns.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I am so very sorry for your loss. And the total upset to your whole family! It's a tragic situation 
I have an Aussie. He is 1/2 mini 1/2 regular size Aussie. He will be 2 in April and he is still a lot of puppy! When he was real little, my goat (Gretta) cornered him and halfheartedly rammed him. It freaked him out and he is terrified of her now. He is basically a little scardy cat. He is also VERY intense. I know that if Gretta had her head stuck (or any animal was in distress) he would go bananas! Since he is afraid of Gretta I can't see him biting her...but he would bark his head off for sure. Anytime I scold any other of my critters the first thing he does is attack Boris (our GSD mix who is his best buddy) Something about my tone of voice just sets him off. It's like an intense hyper-ness that only lasts a few seconds. My opinion would be that it was the pack mentality and the over excited-ness of Nell in distress that set them off. I'm so sorry you are going through this...It's just so frustrating that they can't tell us why on earth they would do this or that...just the nature of having critters. Big hugs to you


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## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

Found this in a search and thought it might lay your mind a little to rest.

"If a dog or pack of dogs is the culprit, what can the producer do? The Ontario publication Family Dogs Attack Sheep cites an Australian study of 1,400 dogs that attacked livestock. In the study, the authorities used trained tracking dogs to follow the offending dogs home. The authorities found that most of the dog owners would not believe that their dogs had attacked the livestock. Most of the owners believed that their dogs were either too small, young, or friendly to commit such an act. None-the-less, the publication states:

The researchers caught dogs from 3 months to 12 years of age, intact and sterilized dogs of both sexes, purebred and mongrel; all attacking livestock. Most of these dogs were well fed, friendly, family pets, running at large. Selective breeding has not suppressed the tendency of any breed of dog to attack and kill livestock. Animal behaviorists say it is not possible to predict whether a particular dog will attack sheep or not.
Owners should understand the reason why a dog attacks sheepâit's all for the love of the game"

I do have to say that it was a relief knowing that when my goats got attacked 2 days ago it wasnt mine that did it. But still angry and upset. Giving you lots of hugs!!:grouphug:


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## Kshobbit (May 14, 2002)

I want to send you my sympathy over the loss of your goat and your dogs. It is a tragedy. Things like this happen all the time when you live on a farm and deal with animals. I do hope you still have that adorable doe kid.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

She was sold. One of the saddest parts of the story is Nell had just come back to us as I let the couple who bought the doeling take Nell and nurse her until she weaned since she wouldn't take a bottle. They had spoiled Nell and let her in their house and everything. I wish I'd let them keep her, of course, but I had no idea what would happen, naturally.

The study is interesting and eye opening. Thanks for posting.


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## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

First off, let me say how sad I feel for you. Especially knowing that it was two animals that you obviously cared about that attacked another animal that you cared about. I think it is very good of you to not be vindictive to these dogs. They just act on instinct. Removing the threat from your own life is the best choice and maybe they can go on to be an amazing companion to someone who doesn't have goats.

At 8 months old, they are still puppies. They are puppies until they reach two years. Puppies like to play. When there are more than one, they get into "pack mode" as some pp said. Playing turns into viciousness. 

Like I always say....you have one dog, you HAVE a dog, get two dogs...you have half a dog, Get three dogs...you got NO dog! 

If you are really sour about horns now, you might think about having the remaining beauties de-horned. I don't know how expensive it is, but your vet should be able to do it. 

So sorry for your loss. No one should have to go through something like that!:grouphug:


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Thank you. We only have two Pymgy goats with goats. The buck is in chain link, so he can't get his head through at all - but the two does, I am going to put the flex pipe on them and tape it and see how that works.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I do not believe that once they get the taste of blood, and that is that they are forever going to kill. My LGD when he was a puppy killed/ate a couple of chickens that got loose. When a dead chicken attacks you, you are gonna think twice about going after another one. He has not touched a chicken since. So that "taste of blood" did not seem to affect him. 

Since the older ones were caught in the act I would give them to the rescue. Glad your neighbor came to the rescue. I think the younger two probably did get caught up in the frenzy and with training and supervision I think they will be fine. But do not let their size fool you into thinking they are not a threat. I had a 9 pound poodle mix kill a lot of full grown chickens.

I do let my dogs get beat by the goats, I think it is good for them and teaches the dogs to respect the goats space. If you have a goat who will butt them then let it happen.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

This thread turns me off of dogs completely, when I finally get my own farm, I'm considering not getting dogs at all.

Maybe a well trained wether can fend off predators?


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Llamas can - but of course, it didn't work in this situation. Normally it needs to be an aggressive llama, I am told, and ours is fairly friendly.


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

Bricheze said:


> This thread turns me off of dogs completely, when I finally get my own farm, I'm considering not getting dogs at all.
> 
> Maybe a well trained wether can fend off predators?


Ha ha they're the wimpiest of the lot.


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## luvzmybabz (Sep 8, 2008)

Now I am rethinking my decision to keep one of the puppies that my airedale had the :flame: neighbor's aussie got ahold of her and I had thought about training one of the pups for livestock guarding here is an excerpt from a webpage about airedales

_Airedales on the Home and Farm
Historically, Airedales served important functions around the farm in both the United States, Canada, and Britain. In addition to assisting with livestock drives, the dogs kept the animals within their designated areas and guarded them from predators. With sufficient training, the highly versatile breed could herd varieties of livestock including pigs sheep, cattle, goats, etc. as well as protect them. Airedales were capable of serving as companions, herders, guard dogs, and sporting dogs (Hotchwalt 1921). 
_

I have caught the sire of these puppies attempting to get into my chicken pen. but my airedale that was in another part of the farm area barked to high heaven and scared him away from the chickens. Another time he has walked the fenceline of the main goat pen but between the airedale and the GP that has to be kenneled for the time being ( in heat and has been taken twice from my back yard ) must have frigtened him away. 

My goats are dry lotted with excercise and nibbling rights ( with strict supervision!) to the 2 1/2 acres at least every other day or so when there is something growing worth eating. So I really have no need for a herding dog rather for guarding. I do know a few people that use airedales for guarding with strict training but am afraid with the aussie high herding instinct that the mix would be too much for them to be trusted. 

:grit: My airedale was a 5 year old maiden with possible breeding issues as she had not taken 2 previous breedings ( previous owner). I was thinking about trying her for 1 litter of pure before getting her fixed now I had had many people tell me that this litter was probably it for her as it was so much stress on her body because we did not know she was pregnant until very close to the end due to a heat related issue she had with swollen teats. The shock of realizing there was milk in them made me want to pull my hair out.

Not meaning to hijack the thread just got me to thining harder and harder that we should not keep any of the pups.


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## DQ (Aug 4, 2006)

*earlier post "Herding instinct wouldn't have been a reason to attack a trapped animal."*

the herding instinct is just a modified hunting instinct. their job in thier mind is to move the animal. if animal doesn't move they up the ante. especially in a dog that hasn't yet been trained to know when "enough is enough" or it is young or the handler isnt' present. this could easily and naturally turn into killing and mutilating. and is imo not a reflection on the dogs as far as a vicious streak or anything. 

as much as we tend to love our dogs they are not human and not equiped to make moral choices. they don't think "gee the poor goat is stuck in the fence" or "I am hurting another being". those are human characteristics and emotions except in the most rudimentary way. 

I have several horned goats. I got rid of the only one that gets stuck partially because this situation with my dogs and others was such a real possiblility. i would be heartbroken and distressed just as you are and it could easily have been myself in this situation. I am very sorry 

but its not the dogs fault.


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## shiandpete.1 (Aug 13, 2008)

Deineria-We have Australian Cattle Dogs and I know what a handful herding dogs can be. It sounds to me like you did everything right with these dogs but the pack instinct took over. Around here there would be no rescue to pick them up as they would be in the back 100 returned to the earth. I would make sure the rescue understands that these dogs can't go to a place with any sort of other animals and probably will never be able to be trained as a successful herding dog as a switch obviously has been moved. I am so sorry for your loss and I agree with horns I have a wether with horns but they are too big for the fence and a doe with horns who I am constantly removing from the fence.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Yes, I have made sure the Aussie rescue totally grasps what was done, and they agree a pet only home is where they will be placed. It is the national American Aussie rescue, which is the largest for the breed, so I believe they will placed in pet only homes.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

While I have taught my dogs to leave the chickens alone, there comes a time when I have had to carry one. Do you know, I had to teach them not to bite the chickens while they are being carried? 

I think they see a squawking chicken as a different case than a quiet one. Perhaps your dogs saw an upset goat as different from a calm one?

She really was lovely.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

We have a BC and two BC/Aussie Shepherd mixes and I don't believe that if they taste blood they can no longer be trusted around other animals and children anymore. Our chickens got out and into the dog yard,the dogs chased the flapping squawking birds. They killed several of them. A couple were pretty chewed. However they do not try to dig into the chicken pen to go after the chickens. In fact, as long as the chickens are in the pen, the dogs pay no attention to them what so ever. We accept that if the chickens get out and into the dog yard, they will be killed.

However, these same dogs come in the house with the cats and run and play with my children. I don't let my youngest who is only two play with the dogs unsupervised but then I don't let him alone with any animal unsupervised. Since he is still learning to be nice this is for both his protection and the animals. Last summer I turned my back for one second and he had reached in one of the BC mixes mouth and got hold of her tongue. He was in the proccess of trying to pull the tongue out of the dog's mouth when I caught him. The dog, who had on two previous occasion taken part in the wholesale slaughter of the chickens who had escaped into her yard, was taking what my then one and a half year old was doing to her with nothing more than a pleading look at me. None of the dogs have ever offered to chase down my youngest when he is running around with them. The dogs give way to the cats. One of the BC/Aussie Shepherd mixes is routinely kicked out of her own dog bed by one small cat. They have never offered to be agressive with the cats or kids. They will chase stray cats out of their yard, but no more ernestly than our one Pekeingese. The Peke loves baby chickens and ducks and will actively protect them. He loves "his" cats and has never shown agression towards them. This same peke will actively attack stray cats in "his" yard with or without any of the other dogs present. 

Our dogs have a "dog yard". That is where they run and play when we are not there to supervise them. They cannot get to the goat fence. Even in the country, a fenced "dog yard" where the dogs can run and play when unsupervised is a good idea.


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