# ALMOST off grid with a budget



## aphares (May 13, 2015)

I'm new. Hi all. Looks like a good site for information. Thanks in advance.

I have a coop electrical provider and the bills are extremely high, even trying to conserve. I have decided to take a plunge into solar power and my budget is $5000. I have looked at this (SPLIT PHASE Hybrid 120/240 Volt 5,000 Watt 8 Solar Panel System) system. I also know learning from someone else to not make their mistake is better than the mistake I could make by wasting the money the first time trying to learn. 

I want/need 240v system. and don't even know where to start. 

Thanks
Art
:stars:


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

First off welcome to the forum. Good question and I will be watching this thread with interest. You may want to fill in your location in the upper right corner, this really helps people give answers to your questions which may be more specific to your area due to climate.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Art,

I assume you meant to link the "I have looked at this....." to some specific equipment, but you didn't link it. Hit the link button (blue globe with chain link symbol in the reply header) and copy/paste the URL location of the stuff you're looking at so we can see it too. Then we can comment on what you're looking at.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

DEFINE YOUR OPERATION PRAMETERS...
(Yes, I sound like a military wonk, I spend 16 years in the Marine Corps)

The "RULES",
1. APPLICATION.
2. APPLICATION.
3. APPLICATION.

Operating Parameters,
1. 220 Volt Output.
2. ?
3. ?
4. ?

--------------------------------------------

Some basic systems,

1. GRID INTERTIE,
This is a system that produce electrical current, directs it to your designated use first, then returns the excess production to the grid to turn your meter BACKWARDS, reducing your bills.

At night, overcast days, or when your USEAGE exceeds your system production,
Power is drawn from the grid (Turning the meter Forwards, INCREASING your bill).

Current you DO NOT use reduces your bill, and in some areas, the electrical grid operator is REQUIRED to buy that current if you produce more than you use.

The idea of a 'Grid Intertie' is to get a 'Zero' on the 'Amount Due' portion of your bill.
Producing PV power on a small scale is HORRIBLY EXPENSIVE compared to what the big produces can make that power for,
So making EXCESS usually doesn't really pay you anything.

The big reason for that is, you are sill going to get charges, line fees, hook up fees, ect.
(They get you coming and going...)

There is good and bad about grid intertie systems,

1. Your excess production turns the meter backwards, Called 'Net Metering'.

2. Your system DOES NOT have to be big enough to power the entire house,
ANY production will cut your bills,

3. You have power when you system is NOT generating, at night, on overcast days, ect.

4. You DO NOT have to have batteries, which are a HUGE pain in the butt to buy, create SAFE housing for, maintain, replace.

Draw Backs Are,
A. When the 'Grid' goes down, so does your solar.
There is no 'Back Up' or 'Emergency' function in grid intertie systems.
When the grid crashes, so does your solar, and you are without power until the grid comes back up.

This is to protect line workers for the most part.
They *Think* the lines are 'Cold', but your house could power up those lines...
So when the grid fails, your system 'Scrams' so you don't produce any useable power...

A 'Grid Intertie' system can be a PAIN to get inspected.
NEMA only came up with a solar section about 3 years ago, and many of the inspectors don't have a clue what they are looking at,
So you may have to import a qualified inspector to sign off on your system.

The synchronizing inverters used with grind intertie are more complicated, so they are expensive...

--------------------------------------------

Your next step, and most complicated/highest initial up front expense is 'Stand Alone', or 'Off Grid' systems.

While Grind Intertie has panels/racking/mounts/wiring/synchronizing inverter,

And 'Off Grid' system has all the above, with the addition of batteries, chargers, charge controllers,
PLUS the regular home wiring/fuse-breaker panels, ect.

Batteries are a HUGE EXPENSE, they are consumable, they WILL fail over time, and they are a pain to maintain.

Batteries store CHEMICAL energy, not 'Electrical' energy, they are NOT capacitors, capacitor being an ELECTRICAL storage device...

They convert ELECTRICAL ENERGY into CHEMICAL ENERGY, so there are losses converting from electrical to chemical, then losses converting back from chemical to electrical.

They are CORROSION MONSTERS...
You WILL become an expert in corrosion control, and you will probably scrap a set of batteries becoming that expert.
EVERYONE has to learn it the hard way!

The biggest draw back with Off Grid is your CAPACITY,
'Scalable' systems are a good THEROY, but everyone buys too little to start with,
Then has to buy NEW AGAIN as they increase capacity to meet demand...

RESEARCH IS YOUR FRIEND HERE!
But like everyone I know that went off grid, it's trial and error, 
There is no 'Exact' formula since everyone is different in their demands/usage,
And the size of cables, maintenance will play a big role in the efficiency of your particular system.

Cheap terminals/cables & corrosion can easily cost you HALF of the current you could produce and use...


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

With only a $5k budget you will better off to forget about PV and invest it towards conservation or thermal. Visit www.Builtitsolar.com and research his half plan. About 2k invested in various progects saved way more than a PV system.

WWW


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

IF your dropping your Grid power you might want to check and see if you can actually do that. If your staying grid tied then find out how much of your bill is grid infrastructure cost and how much is actually power consumption.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Everyone *Thinks* PV is going to be the ONLY answer, and it's not.

CONSERVATION means work, and most people don't want to put the hours in...
Sealing up cracks, getting thermal efficient windows in, getting insulation in.

This guy is insulating, which there is no such thing as BAD insulation!
The usual return on insulation is $4 for every dollar invested in just a 5 year period.
You can't get a 400% return on your money anywhere else.

Thermal windows are usually $2 return on every dollar in 5 years...
Windows are MUCH easier than most people think, but they usually forget to seal around them when they install... Which will save you even more money.

Grid Intertie is a good LONG TERM investment. Figure your payback at 20 years.
That's what you are paying for power RIGHT NOW...
If what you plan will pay for itself in 20 years (the usual length of panel warranty periods),
Then the RATE INCREASES will pay you back MUCH SOONER,
When the system is paid for, it's RETURNING MONEY TO YOU beyond that point.

My system was based on a 20 year payback at the electric rates 13 years ago.
With rate increases, it paid for itself in 9 years!
I've been off grid for just under 13 years, and the last 3.5 years have been FREE MONEY since the system is still working just fine with no failures, and most of the equipment has a 20 year warranty period...

Just for the record, my energy supplier just asked for, and received, another 30% rate hike increase which hasn't gone into effect yet...
Once I know EXACTLY what a KWH is going to cost, I'll program that into the savings and see what my system is paying back...

CURRENT PAY BACK, INCLUDING THE REBATES AND TAX CREDITS IS WHAT YOU LOOK AT.
Local solar places can help you with tax credits/rebates information...

If done 'Correctly', depending on the state you live in, you *COLUD* get up to 1/3 of your money back over time with rebates/tax credits.
Now this is nice to have your money go 1/3 or even 1/2 farther, but for those credits you need to comply with some government regulations...
So check with solar installers/providers and some of the web sites devoted to that stuff before you make a final decision.

I got lucky, and it was sheer luck, with a couple of changes, I qualified for credits before GWB killed the big money programs.
My initial outlay was about $50K, but ended up costing me about $28,000 after rebates/credits.
Simply by buying from California instead of buying locally, or ordering from a supplier from 'New York' or someplace, I got credits, so like I said, it was just blind luck at that time I qualified for some of the credits/had taxes knocked off, ect.


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