# advice on a very defiant child?



## lonelyfarmgirl

I'll try to keep this from turning into a book, but help and/or advise is needed for a major problem.

12yr old girl, single homeschooled child. only mom and daughter in the house, in the country. no other kids around, but plenty of animals.
had a rough start in life.
few friends. one that used to be in a co-op with her in another city. best friends. talk on phone daily, but only get to see each other a few times a year.
involved in a very active jobs daughters group, but no contact with those girls outside of the scheduled activities.

I realize that preteens and teens have their times of emotional and I hate life crisis.. I know I did, but this is way over board.

practically overnight (really). hates herself, her life. has stated no longer wants to live at home. VERY selfish and self centered. except for gifts at the appropriate times, and helping grandma when asked, cares nothing for other people. will not, clean up after self, ever, anywhere.
wont shower, brush hair, teeth, etc.. unless forced too. (I would not be surprised if she didnt wipe.)
barely eeks out required chores, at minimum acceptable.

only completes schoolwork if forced, and then only bare minimums. at this point, will be repeating 6th grade.
screams at mom several times a week. feels that becasue she is not in public school with a cell phone that she is the scourge (my word) of society, and feels all the girls in jobs daughters (who love her to death by the way) are really only her friend becasue they secretly feel sorry for her.

then it got worse. her best friend, whose mom is the Cleaver type, but very lazy, gave her the choice to go back to public school. the friend enthusiastically agreed. mom bought her a cell phone.
then best friend is encouraging daughter to make prank phone calls to a boy she has a crush on. (not sure if she ever did it or not)
best friend also took it upon herself to research emancipation online, and convinced daughter that it is legal for her to move out at 16yrs. old.

best friend comes from a very church abiding home, but if her mother is confronted about this 'bad influence' problem, she will ring her hands, smile and say oh! girls will be girls!

daughter has no respect for anyone, no focus or motivation to do anything. she just doesnt care. take away her priviledges, doesn't care. make her sleep on the floor in the hall if she wont clean her room, doesn't care. took away her coat (which she dearly loves) for a week after it laid on the living room floor for 4 days and she refused to pick it up. 20 degrees outside. she didnt care. she just doesnt care about anything or anyone.
yet she wants to be a zoologist, and is fully convinced it will happen no problem.

daughter lives in a home where bible and praying happen daily, comes from a very churchy and giving extended family. there is no violence in the home. minimal yelling or put downs on the part of the parent.

I would like to hear advice and opinions on how to handle this problem 
thanks


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## Ardie/WI

Off the top of my head, I'd say the child feels that she has nothing to live for and is dearly in need of help. 

If I lived like that, I'd probably feel the same way.


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## cindy-e

I really don't have any advice for you about the behavior, but there are two things that we have done that have REALLY helped the hormone issue around here. They were suggested by an ed. psychologist that we work with.

1) Take her OFF of any food that has synthetic (or large amounts of natural) hormones in them... beef, pork, milk, and cheese. Also, I do not give unfirmented soy either. My dd went from being pre-pubescent at age 9 to having some pretty normal years. She is 11 now, so that change made 2 years of difference! When she is weepy it is on the strength of her OWN hormones, and she is much less volitale than when she was 9!

2) Make her get exercise EVERY day. When she runs she metabolizes some of the overage of hormones that floods her body and should help to even her out. 

THIS IS JUST AN OPINION, and one I am not really qualified to make, but it is a different perspective that might be of benefit... It sounds like maybe she needs some counseling too... She is really emotionally not handing life very well. It sounds a bit like depression to me. That is a brain chemical problem, not PRIMARILY a stubbornness issue. You could win this war, and lose your daughter if you stay in the fight. Maybe she needs someone to talk to, (like your pastor maybe?) who is not you, and who is not another child giving her bad advice to help her sort things out. 

Well, I hope you get some answers. It sounds extremely difficult. 
Cindyc.


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## MaineFarmMom

It's not a given that teenagers ever hate life or having screaming fits. If she were mine I would take her in for a physical and some counseling. The child needs friend she can spend time with, do things with and learn to interact on a healthy basis. She sounds fairly well locked up to me. She has so little now and loses what she does have because she reacts to the life she's living. I don't think I'd feel like I had a reason to get up, shower and get going in the morning either. 

What does she get to do for normal childhood fun on a regular basis? That might be something to build on.


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## bstuart29

I don't have any advice to really give you but to say that I know you are great Mom and am going everything you can for her, so just hang in there, I'm sure it tuff for you:grouphug:. Please everyone who does pray keep Lonelyfarmgirl and her daughter in your prayers.


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## momlaffsalot

I'm sorry you're going through this. It's tough to have a troubled child. 

<<<<minimal yelling or put downs on the part of the parent.>>>

Change that to NO yelling and definitely no put downs...no, no, no put downs! and see if that doesn't ease the tension somewhat. I think it's important to help kids create big lives. Lives that are not small and circled and somewhat anti-social...help her find things that would enjoy...she wants to be a zoologist? Send her to camp-at-the-zoo in the summer, take her to wild animal parks where they have guest speakers working in the field she's interested in, encourage her to follow her dreams, decorate her room with animals! Do whatever you can to get her excited about her life and find a therapist who will work with you to support her as she grows older and into young adult hood. 
If you don't do something now, something positive to turn it around for her, you won't get to later. 
I am not implying that you are a bad mother for making her sleep in the hall for not cleaning her room, but in the whole scope of things, is it that big of a deal? I would be more concerned that she is so depressed. 
I wish you well in this...please think about getting her involved in something great, okay? It could really make a difference. Good luck...


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## RockyGlen

Tell them to read the book "Shepherding a Child's Heart"....until they get her heart, nothing will change with her behavior.


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## MorningGlory

Oh dear, sounds like you two are having a time. I'm so sorry, I'm sure it must be difficult in times like these. I remember what a hell-cat I was at that time in my life. It sounds like you both need a break from each other. Can you take a week off from school? We take time off when it's needed, and things go ok. If you can't stand the thought of no school for that long, maybe make it art week and let her express herself through painting or drawing? Don't be judgmental of what the subject matter is, etc. Just let her do and let what she's feeling flow onto paper or canvas. I also wholeheartedly agree with making sure her food is hormone and soy free. 

Also, and I know this sounds kind of bizarre, but have her go out in the middle of the yard and just scream. Let her throw a three year old style temper tantrum on the ground, being as primal and violent as she wants to be until she can't do it anymore. I know it seems opposite from the way you want a sweet Christian girl to act, but she's got some things bottled up that are going to cause at the very least an emotional trainwreck between you two. 

Another thing, too. And please don't take this the wrong way. This type of behavior is normal, to a point. You might have expected it. Try to put yourself in her shoes and remember how you felt at that age. This is the age of starting to be your own person on a very comprehensive level. There is always bound to be growing pains, and it's not meant to be pretty. It's meant to be real. I pray you and your daughter will find a happy compromise to get along. It's a long road from here to adulthood.


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## michiganfarmer

I used to rule with an iron will. My wife and kids were pretty unhappy.

I learned to listen, and participate with things they wanted to do.

That made all the difference in the world. We are so much more together, and happy.

I dont know if this helps at all, but I feel for you, an wish you the best of luck


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## RichieC

She sounds pretty darn isolated and socially mal-adjusted.

Whose choice is the homeschooling? It is not the right choice for everyone.


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## Callieslamb

sound like a child's problem but a parenting problem. How many choices does this child have in her own life? 

Not a professional anything, but I wonder if she has an outlet for her frustrations? Anything just plain old "fun" to do?


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## Rascal

I'm really not trying to be judgmental, yet, it sounds like she's living in a jail cell. 
Few to no friends, & little opportunity to make any new ones. Then being treated as if _she's_ selfish & uncaring.

Not everyone is cut out to be a hermit. Especially youngun's. They need social interaction to a certain extent, within appropriate limits. Or they just quite developing, & don't learn how to grow into a stable mature being.

Sound's to me like she's more angry than anything else, & under those circumstance's I think most anyone would be. I wouldn't be suprised if she draw's up plans to run away.


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## Kee Wan

My thoughts run toward the "she has no real friends"....like others have said. 

I TOTALLY understand your frustration with her best friend - who is all of a sudden a free spirit, and who has suddenly turned into a rather negative influence. I would, at the next opportunity, speak to that child myself - and suggest that while she may have the best of intentions, convincing a child that she is "free" to do whatever she wants at 12 (because she can leave at 16) is NOT an influence that you will accept. Be clear that you are NOT going to tolerate another child telling your child to play prank calls and so on. 

As for the other girls, those who she does have contact with, I would work, perhaps, on seeing if you can foster some other friendships there. SEe if you can talk to one or two of the other moms and see what kind of advice they may have. See if you can foster other friendships. 

ALso - even through you may not find public school acceptable, you may want to see if you can find some other activities for her. See if you can find any extra curricular activities that she can participate in, either at the public school or the private ones in the area. Check the library, and other resources to see if there are other home-school networks that you could join. Look into 4H. 

YOu may want to try some therapy too. For you, her and the two of you together. Just to see if you can improve things. 

We'll keep you in our prayers.


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## meanwhile

We do the same as cindy-e above: Watch the food, no junk food and add lots of exercise. We do this not as "punishment" but as a healthy life style choice for us all. When anyone is "off" then we check food, fresh air, exercise and we cut back drastically on TV, games, computer. 

Another thing we do is "family meeting" where we all talk about anything that needs discussing. Sometimes I have Family Meeting with just one boy at a time, sometimes we all get around the kitchen table. Rules are NO shouting, no cussing, no blaming, no running off in a huff - everyone must really talk and brainstorm the problems. We only started Family Meeting about six years ago and it took probably six months before we all learned to talk in a productive way. It has really helped us on many occasions and with many different types of concerns and problems. 

Good luck and hang in there.


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## backwoods

As homeschooler's also, our children do not "socialize" with a large number of children. They do have a couple of friends they play with that are also homeschooled. I don't think your daughter necessarily needs a lot more "kid" friends of her own age. You are, after all, trying to raise her to become a responsible adult, not a perpetual teeny bopper. I think she would benefit by becoming "involved" with perhaps an animal shelter as a volunteer, or maybe a nursing home, or a special needs childrens's center, depending on what you have available near by. Mom would have to be "involved" somewhat as well, of course. Everyone needs to be needed. The hormones may be a part of the problem, but she may just need to feel she's making a real contribution in some way. I had a young cousin who was like this until her mother started taking her to a battered women's shelter so they could set up a "library" for the children who stayed there. She became so involved, she got over 1,500 new books donated by neighbors & area businesses to the shelter, and started studying "library sciences" on her own, because she had to help organize the new library! 
A trip to the doctor just to be on the "safe side" would also be a good idea, to rule out anything physical. Who knows, she could have mono!!! 
Good luck to you!
backwoods


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## Tracy Rimmer

Socialization is one of those annoying words that drive me nuts -- it doesn't have to be public school and it's cells of 30 kids, or nothing. 

This child needs some social interaction. There is a difference between keeping them away from bad influences, and keeping them away from ALL influences. 

As for the "I want what other girls have" -- how much television does she watch? Honestly, if her idea of what other girls are getting in the early teen years is set by after-school-type programming, she probably does feel like she's being denied a "normal" life. She needs to interact with some real people in order to understand that most people don't live like Hollywood suggests that they do.

This child is depressed and at risk for all sorts of problems that come from that. Get her out and about -- not necessarily with "bad" influences, but at least SOME interaction with others -- preferably in an environment where she can practice and learn some skills which will help her in interacting with society in the future.

You can't keep a child in a bubble and expect them to not object -- nor can you expect them to grow up into a functioning adult if you've kept them isolated and not given them the opportunity to learn social skills. Of course she's going to blame it on homeschooling if she sees that a homeschooling friend no longer has these issues after going back to public school -- but it's not homeschooling that is the culprit -- it's the parenting.


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## momlaffsalot

Lonelyfarmgirl, I am wondering how I would feel if this were my post and I see some people responding with 'it's a parenting issue.' I can't help but wonder if I would feel defensive and I hope that you don't. You've been given some valuable words to think about here. I hope that you take the advice and make some changes for your daughter before it's too late. Kids get harder to reach if they are troubled, as they get further into their teens. You can make a difference in her life if you hurry up and start giving her something to look forward to.
Good luck, you can do this...


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## mamalisa

In the first place, most 12 year old girls are slightly nuts. However, this sounds way over the top........

First and foremost, I'd get her a physical. Then I'd revamp the food in the house, without comment---just not buying certain stuff. 

But she needs friends her own age and a job of sorts, something not connected with you, a place where she can just be and be wonderful because they don't know what she is at home. I don't think p.s. is necessarily the answer, but at this age moms and daughters SERIOUSLY need space.

Pick your battles. Close the door to her room if it is messy. Buy snazzy new shampoo and fancy toothpaste, braid her hair if she likes it. Find someplace where you connect and don't lose it no matter what. Hug her and tell her you love her.


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## bstuart29

momlaffsalot said:


> Lonelyfarmgirl, I am wondering how I would feel if this were my post and I see some people responding with 'it's a parenting issue.' I can't help but wonder if I would feel defensive and I hope that you don't. You've been given some valuable words to think about here. I hope that you take the advice and make some changes for your daughter before it's too late. Kids get harder to reach if they are troubled, as they get further into their teens. You can make a difference in her life if you hurry up and start giving her something to look forward to.
> Good luck, you can do this...


I agree some of you have used poor termology and most people would take it as a shot at their parenting skills. So please try to use better termology next time. I know Lonelyfarmgirl pretty well and she is a good parent and ALWAYS puts her daughter first. All I ask is you watch what words you say because they easily could be taken wrong. I know you all were just trying to help but please be more careful in how you phase things.


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## celticfarmgal

Try to get her involved in a 4-h group or Girlscouting or the like I know its hard to deal with but teenagers and pre-teens need social interaction . If public schools bother you maybe look into Charter or christian schools


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## momlaffsalot

<<<<I agree some of you have used poor termology>>>

BStuart, I didn't say the other posters used poor terminology. I don't think they did, I think they called it as it is which, sometimes, is difficult to hear (see). I agree with the words that have been written here, and my point was to ask her not to let that get in the way of the wisdom offered here. I don't necessarily think it being a parenting issue means she is a bad parent, either, it just means she needs to be open to hearing that and doing what she can to change it. Not having all the answers is nothing to be ashamed of--closing your eyes and ears to the answers though, is.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

ok, let me clarify a few things, because, although well meant, some of these comments are off thier rockers.

1.first, there are no putdowns in the house, and always lots of love and hugs

2.she is in 4H. she's a 4th year. all the other kids dash for the door the minute the meeting is over, they all go to the local public school. she goes out of obligation, and wants nothing to do with those kids. she (again) is involved in jobs daughters. a VERY active and social, religious club for girls age 10-20. the group numbers around 15 girls. they love her. there are activities a minimum of 4 times a month. she mostly attends without me. I make it a point to keep my distance so she can have some space.

3.the sleeping in the hall thing happened once, just to see the resulting reaction. It came from discovering maggots under the bed and in the trash (it was that bad), and the out and out refusal to clean it up.

4.we have NO TV. she gets movies on the weekend while I go to work and she stays home alone.

5.I graduated from a Christian school. same as public, just a harder mold to fill.

6.why give her scream time? she screams regularly, while I stand quietly and wait for her to finish.

7.no processed foods, white flour, or white sugar are allowed in the house. ever. no junk food, no soda, not an issue. (except at job's daughters meetings, I cant help that) Its been more than 2 years since she ate fast food.

8.she spends one weekend a month with her grandmother in another city. she spent 10 days in florida over the summer without me.

9.she already chooses her own bathroom supplies

10.I have spent countless hours searching for homeschools groups. the nearest one I can find is 50 miles one way.

11. there are no other kids on the block. I tried to get her involved in girls inc. she was disguisted and wanted nothing to do with them. she will also start soccer in march. this will be her 3rd year.

I dont keep her in a bubble or a jail cell. she makes alot of her own choices about alot of things. from the age of 8 till last summer, she even went to work with me. Lots of social interaction with lots of people. She just joined a fishing club (her choice) they start fishing in April. the only way she could find more time doing things BESIDES staying with me, would be public school, and drop all extra curriculars. Not gonna happen.
try again.


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## Ardie/WI

Now lonelyfarmgirl, you sound angry!

You asked for advice and opinions and I, for one, gave it to you! I'm sorry it wasn't what you wanted to hear. I try my best.

I think that you have a dreadfully unhappy daughter and, I repeat, she sounds as if she feels that she has nothing to live for.

I'd have her examined by a therapist because it sounds like depression and that is very dangerous in a young person her age.


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## NewlandNubians

I wasn't a homeschooled so-called isolated kid growing up but I sure felt like her sometimes. Hmmmm, has she started her period recently? Hormones are fun at that age, I remember. I felt like I didn't have any friends, I had many. Of course everyone probalby points the finger at you because oohhhh, she's sooo isolated. What did people do 200 years ago for goodness sakes?!?

I would worry about her lack of wanting to bathe and all, if she thinks she's isolated and that's the problem, she better get with the program if she truly wants to go to public school because I can promise her if she goes there all nasty stinking she'll have absolutely ZERO friend and will be ridiculed every day. Sorry to break it to her but that's the real deal, gotta have new clothes, etc. She wants to go spend her money and get gussied up and go to school and meet all those new friends, go for it but I think she'll be sadly, sadly disappointed for the most part.

I think she needs more discipline but that's just my opinion. I'm no expert, I only have one kid and he's two. She shouldn't be screaming in your face like that though, that's just wrong. My mom and dad would've never allowed that to happen. I'd recommend you read some parenting books both from older times and newer and learn some new tricks. I know that sounds silly but whatever you're doing isn't quite working right if she screams in your face more than once and isn't punished effectively for it. Once is all I did in my parent's house, I can tell you that. You don't scream at her, I take it. That would maybe make her feel like it's okay. And the bathing. If you tell her to bathe then she should go take a bath. Simple as that. I'd start with the bathing, I'd tell her to take a bath and I'd tell her if she didn't I'd MAKE her. And I'd follow through. If she didn't bathe I'd put her clothes and all in the bath tub and scrub her gross tail. If she has a fit, tell her she had a choice and since she can't bathe herself you had to do it for her. That'll fix her. I can remember my parents telling me go take a bath when I was that age and I did. Heck they would've probably hosed me down outside if I didn't <grin>. Naw not really but I relaly do think she's just pushing you around. 

Or you could take her to a therapist and they will happily write her a presciption for some happy pills and then recommend you send her to public school and stop sheltering her, problem solved. I'm sure when I was younger I would've been on pills in a heartbeat. Heck I probably need to be on pills now but no thanks, not for me.


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## Kee Wan

Knowing your story, I still think that it would be wise to have your child see a therapist. I would NOT NOT NOT recommend that she be placed on "happy pills" FAR too many of those have REALLY bad effects that are just not emphasized enough. I would simply see what the therapist has to say. See if you can get someone who is willing to work with you and communicating, and helping her to redirect some of her apparent rage/anger. Yelling at you is NOT ok. 

As for books, you could consider reading "Teen Proofing" by John Rosemond. I found it helpful with my teen. 

Part of me thinks that your daughter is having some identity issues, and perhaps some of that is just "that age". Tweens are a hard age. PArt of me thinks that " this too shall pass", but there is a part that thinks that some professional help may be in order as well.


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## billy

I hate to say it but the part about hating herself sounds like there could be a hidden problem that you are unaware of such as molestation. I do not know the situation there or whether or not that is even a possibility, but at least consider that self-hatred often goes with molestation. Depression definitely sounds likely. Find its root.


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## Cheryl in SD

I have two of the creatures. One still likes to get out around other people, one likes to lock herself in her bedroom & read. I think both are normal, both don't like to shower & have to be reminded, and both are moody. 

I do think there should be some rules you both agree to. There should be clearly defined consequences for violating the rules. I know it will be hard, but with this emotional of a child, it may be wiser to not leave her home alone on the weekends. 

The good news is that puberty only lasts for 2-5 years or so. One thing that might help is getting omega 3 oils, and plenty of potassium. The book Prescription for Nutritional Healing has several good ideas. At this age it is also important to get plenty of complex carbs and enough fat & protein. Just eliminating junk food will sometimes drop good carbs low enough to upset the needed nutrients for the brain and emotions.


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## mamalisa

I went through this with both of my girls. Seriously.

Find something you connect on. something silly, maybe. For my younger one, it was hair. Clothing---go to the mall with her and giggle while she tries stuff on. Yes, I know most of the clothes are ridiculous. But it is possible to find clothes that work, and just trying nine million things on is fun.

While I know she chooses her own bathroom supplies, I was talking over the top---Aveda, Ice, something spiffy from the Bath and Body works store----but this won't work if bathing is already a war between the two of you. What part of the world will end if she doesn't bathe? Yes, she will stink. She will quite probably stink for over two weeks while she waits to see if you say something. When she does bathe, ignore it. A big fuss is counterproductive.
I doubt if her teeth will rot in 2 weeks. 

One of the best things I learned at this age was to quit pushing over stuff. If you quit pushing, they can't push back. And---expect an extinction burst. You know, where you kick the door REALLY hard before you quit trying the lock?


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## RichieC

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> ok, let me clarify a few things, because, although well meant, some of these comments are off thier rockers.
> 
> 1.first, there are no putdowns in the house, and always lots of love and hugs
> 
> 2.she is in 4H. she's a 4th year. all the other kids dash for the door the minute the meeting is over, they all go to the local public school. she goes out of obligation, and wants nothing to do with those kids. she (again) is involved in jobs daughters. a VERY active and social, religious club for girls age 10-20. the group numbers around 15 girls. they love her. there are activities a minimum of 4 times a month. she mostly attends without me. I make it a point to keep my distance so she can have some space.
> 
> 3.the sleeping in the hall thing happened once, just to see the resulting reaction. It came from discovering maggots under the bed and in the trash (it was that bad), and the out and out refusal to clean it up.
> 
> 4.we have NO TV. she gets movies on the weekend while I go to work and she stays home alone.
> 
> 5.I graduated from a Christian school. same as public, just a harder mold to fill.
> 
> 6.why give her scream time? she screams regularly, while I stand quietly and wait for her to finish.
> 
> 7.no processed foods, white flour, or white sugar are allowed in the house. ever. no junk food, no soda, not an issue. (except at job's daughters meetings, I cant help that) Its been more than 2 years since she ate fast food.
> 
> 8.she spends one weekend a month with her grandmother in another city. she spent 10 days in florida over the summer without me.
> 
> 9.she already chooses her own bathroom supplies
> 
> 10.I have spent countless hours searching for homeschools groups. the nearest one I can find is 50 miles one way.
> 
> 11. there are no other kids on the block. I tried to get her involved in girls inc. she was disguisted and wanted nothing to do with them. she will also start soccer in march. this will be her 3rd year.
> 
> I dont keep her in a bubble or a jail cell. she makes alot of her own choices about alot of things. from the age of 8 till last summer, she even went to work with me. Lots of social interaction with lots of people. She just joined a fishing club (her choice) they start fishing in April. the only way she could find more time doing things BESIDES staying with me, would be public school, and drop all extra curriculars. Not gonna happen.
> try again.


Woah! Who has the anger issues? Your daughter? Are you sure?

You asked for advice. Way too often on these boards, people get tough advice whether they want it or not. But you _asked_ for it.

A couple of hours a week of interaction with a very few (carefully pre-screened for social and religious appropriateness) kids is very possibly not enough. 

I am by no means hostile to homeschooling. But it is not for everyone. So whose choice was it?


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## dezeeuwgoats

I agree with cindy-e and meanwhile......

Depression and anxiety type disorders run on both sides of our family (dh and mine). Both of my older boys hit the wall at 11 and 1/2. 

We are very careful of diet and exercise....

oops gotta go - I'll add more later!
Niki


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## ajharris

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> I'll try to keep this from turning into a book, but help and/or advise is needed for a major problem.
> 
> 12yr old girl, single homeschooled child. only mom and daughter in the house, in the country. no other kids around, but plenty of animals.
> had a rough start in life.
> few friends. one that used to be in a co-op with her in another city. best friends. talk on phone daily, but only get to see each other a few times a year.
> involved in a very active jobs daughters group, but no contact with those girls outside of the scheduled activities.
> 
> I realize that preteens and teens have their times of emotional and I hate life crisis.. I know I did, but this is way over board.
> 
> practically overnight (really). hates herself, her life. has stated no longer wants to live at home. VERY selfish and self centered. except for gifts at the appropriate times, and helping grandma when asked, cares nothing for other people. will not, clean up after self, ever, anywhere.
> wont shower, brush hair, teeth, etc.. unless forced too. (I would not be surprised if she didnt wipe.)
> barely eeks out required chores, at minimum acceptable.
> 
> only completes schoolwork if forced, and then only bare minimums. at this point, will be repeating 6th grade.
> screams at mom several times a week. feels that becasue she is not in public school with a cell phone that she is the scourge (my word) of society, and feels all the girls in jobs daughters (who love her to death by the way) are really only her friend becasue they secretly feel sorry for her.
> 
> then it got worse. her best friend, whose mom is the Cleaver type, but very lazy, gave her the choice to go back to public school. the friend enthusiastically agreed. mom bought her a cell phone.
> then best friend is encouraging daughter to make prank phone calls to a boy she has a crush on. (not sure if she ever did it or not)
> best friend also took it upon herself to research emancipation online, and convinced daughter that it is legal for her to move out at 16yrs. old.
> 
> best friend comes from a very church abiding home, but if her mother is confronted about this 'bad influence' problem, she will ring her hands, smile and say oh! girls will be girls!
> 
> daughter has no respect for anyone, no focus or motivation to do anything. she just doesnt care. take away her priviledges, doesn't care. make her sleep on the floor in the hall if she wont clean her room, doesn't care. took away her coat (which she dearly loves) for a week after it laid on the living room floor for 4 days and she refused to pick it up. 20 degrees outside. she didnt care. she just doesnt care about anything or anyone.
> yet she wants to be a zoologist, and is fully convinced it will happen no problem.
> 
> daughter lives in a home where bible and praying happen daily, comes from a very churchy and giving extended family. there is no violence in the home. minimal yelling or put downs on the part of the parent.
> 
> I would like to hear advice and opinions on how to handle this problem
> thanks



Lonelyfarmgirl, 
I have no advice for you just a hug. I am going through the same thing with DSD13. Your post sounds just like DSD. Once again :grouphug:


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## mamalisa

some, but not all, girls need to seperate from mom in a big way, part of declaring their independence and existence as their own person. this can and does mean major battles. Somehow, the closer you hold these kids, the harder they struggle to get away......

What I am advocating is a long-term view, preservation of your relationship for the long term rather than fighting each battle in the short term. At the end of the day, each child must choose their own religion, their own sexuality, and their own lifestyle. We can give them all the exposure we want to or limit them only to our own views----they must ultimately choose.

So when you fight with these girls, stop and think---hair grows, clothing can be changed, eventually they will wash, and if you aren't gritting your teeth over it, rooms will get clean. Pick your battles. Pick them carefully.

In the words of a very wise DI---Don't issue an order you can't enforce.


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## dirtundernails

Lonelyfarmgirl, my suggestion is simple and cheap! Sublingual vitaminB complex- for both of you.

I find it occasionally at wallet mart.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

I am not angry at the posts here. I post the occasional problem, because the views of the people here are usually so radical that either, it makes a person realize the problem isnt as bad as it seems, or opens views to ideals one vener thought of. I have read a million parenting books, to no avail.
I am worried now, becasue this went on for about 3 weeks hardcore, then one day she was fine. its been no cakewalk since, but it scares me beacuse her biological father was like that. he was the type that snapped for no reason. angry and violent. she hasnt been around him since preschool age. my mom always thought he was undiagnosed schizo, but I just chalked it up to a horrible upbringing. he was in juvy at age 9.
and no to whomever said it. molestation is definately not a possibility.

I try real hard to choose my battles, but there is a line. no maggots in the bedroom. I wont take her into public looking and smelling like the scum of the earth. its just not appropriate. 
thanks for the advice


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## cindy-e

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> I am not angry at the posts here. I post the occasional problem, because the views of the people here are usually so radical that either, it makes a person realize the problem isnt as bad as it seems, or opens views to ideals one vener thought of. I have read a million parenting books, to no avail.
> I am worried now, becasue this went on for about 3 weeks hardcore, then one day she was fine. its been no cakewalk since, but it scares me beacuse her biological father was like that. he was the type that snapped for no reason. angry and violent. she hasnt been around him since preschool age. my mom always thought he was undiagnosed schizo, but I just chalked it up to a horrible upbringing. he was in juvy at age 9.
> and no to whomever said it. molestation is definately not a possibility.
> 
> I try real hard to choose my battles, but there is a line. no maggots in the bedroom. I wont take her into public looking and smelling like the scum of the earth. its just not appropriate.
> thanks for the advice


Manic depression would look a lot like you are describing, (especially if she is BETTER than fine now). That is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain and can be genetic. It would also be intensified by the onslaught of teenage hormones.

Cindyc.


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## jayzee

I think that sounds a lot like depression. I don't think public school (or even a private or Christian school) would help - she needs something to help with the depression. Maybe there is something natural to help with that - I haven't looked into that before, but there must be something. She doesn't care about anything - not even her own cleanliness - and that tells me that depression is probably the key factor here.

The part about wanting what others have ... I don't know if that is a normal 12-yr-old thing because my kids aren't there yet. Maybe? At least if the girls she is around are also like that, it could be the case. My kids (although a bit younger) want things that their public school counterparts have sometimes, and I just tell them that we don't do that. Not sure that will work when we get to adolescence though  We just try to model being thankful for what God has given us, even if we want other things sometimes too.

Definitely try to find healthy activities for her to be involved in. May need to address the depression first or at the same time, but definitely find ways for her to be involved with other girls. If your area has craft classes and things like that where girls are likely to be involved, things like that are great.

Praying that you are able to find something to help out!

Jen


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## lonelyfarmgirl

as I said, she is involved in a very active job's daughters group, and some other minor activities.
things have been a bit better lately. maybe the break in the weather is making the difference. I wonder though, I hope I wasnt this horrid when I was young.


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## bigfoot2you

Any chance she is being molested?, Home alone at 12? Any chance someone is coming around when you arn't at home? Definitely sounds like some type of counciling is needed. Poor little imp sounds like she wants to crawl out of her own skin..........Please get her some professional help ASAP.


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## AprilW

I've been reading this post and considering everyone's advice. I would like to also say she sounds unhappy at the least. It could also be depression. I went through a similar "phase" when I was just a little older than your daughter. I was not happy with my life, I didn't care for anything, I would go from feeling ok to extremely depressed in a small amount of time. I felt so horrible at times that I was beginning to self harm and consider suicide. My advice is to get your daughter help. Take her to the doctor and explain what is going on.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

bigfoot2you said:


> Any chance she is being molested?, Home alone at 12? Any chance someone is coming around when you arn't at home? Definitely sounds like some type of counciling is needed. Poor little imp sounds like she wants to crawl out of her own skin..........Please get her some professional help ASAP.


now this is ridiculous. does anyone ever read previous posts before commenting? I already said NO!


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## Aint2nuts

First. 
Take a deep breath. 

I can tell you what I did for all three of my kids. Only my son was doing what you discribe, but it worked for all three of them. (I didn't want to single my son out as the 'behavior problem' and it sure made everything easier on ME. 

We got a program called Easy Child. The first week was rough because they hadn't earned the right to do much. This program is a computer program, that you can buy online, but you could do much the same thing with poker chips, or a chart. 

We set goals for them to achieve. In the beginning, showering was a goal that earned them points. Each point was worth both money (for us 3 cents a point, we are on a budget because I am disabled) and levels that allowed them to do things both in the house and outside the house. Unless they had a priveledge they weren't allowed to do -- whatever it was. 

I also gave them additional incentives that they worked for "Roller skating and invite a friend" "Sleep over" "Go to a friends house" " Ice cream man -- buy one item" "Movie night" You will have to judge which would be popular for her to earn. Also phone priveledges are earned. So is using the front room of the house, watching television, etc. 

Kids HAVE to be able to socialize occasionally in this world or they start feeling like freaks. Television and our society tells them they need to be around other kids, and I agree to a large extent. :duel:

My kids go to Girls Activity Day, Job's Daughters is something they are starting at their grandfathers behest, Boy scouts for my son, and a park day for them to play with other homeschooled kids. 

Chores are assigned, and have to be completed by a certain time. Each chore is worth a point. My kids do their own laundry (they are responsible for doing two loads a week), and do MY laundry and get paid. They BEG me to be able to do my laundry because it is worth points (and therefore money). My son does the dishes, he cooks, he does the trash. My daughter (older one) is responsible for the front yard, feeding and watering the cats, cleaning the front room, changing the cat litter box daily( the last is with her younger sister), and my younger daugher is in charge of the bathroom, helping with the front room, cleaning the birds cage. You get the idea. Your chores will vary I am sure. They also get points for showering,:happy: teeth brushing, keeping their rooms clean, being respectful, etc. I have changed some of the things they get points for as they grew. My daughters now get points for being modest, especially around their brother. They were too likely to walk around without clothing on!

We occasionally go off Easy child, but my kids always BEG to go back on it. After all, how many places can you earn 42 cents a week for brushing your teeth twice a day for a week? 

If you want more information, I can give it to you. We have done this or a variation of this for five years now. It totally changed my oldest son's additude when he didn't earn the priveldges that he wanted. He works harder and with a wonderful attitude when he is on easy child.


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## Aint2nuts

meanwhile said:


> Another thing we do is "family meeting" where we all talk about anything that needs discussing. .



I agree with this, completely and totally. We have family meeting about anyting important that is happening or going to happen in our lives. The kids are allowed to have input into whatever is happening. Although they realize it is a one person dictatorship, not a complete democracy (*just kidding-sorta)

We have a talking stick we made one family night (monday nights are family nights) who ever has the stick gets to talk. Everyone else has to listen.


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## donsgal

Your problem seems apparent to me.

The best friend appears to be the problem. Time to find a new best friend I would say. This girl seems too concerned with worldly things, appearance, material objects, etc. I'd strongly suggest removing the television and magazines that preach this kind of mentality.

Sounds a little like hormones could be kicking in also. My condolences.

donsgal


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## lonelyfarmgirl

aint2nuts, I am trying something similar to what you are talking about, and although it is helping a tiny bit, its minimal, since she is currently motivated by nothing. I am interested to hear more about that program.

I have allowed her to take a part-time job, helping the neighbor. hopefully it will help her feel important and more responsible.



donsgal said:


> Your problem seems apparent to me.
> 
> This girl seems too concerned with worldly things, appearance, material objects, etc. I'd strongly suggest removing the television and magazines that preach this kind of mentality.
> 
> donsgal


I agree with you here, but
I already said she doesnt get to watch tv, and I dont give her magazines that preach worldly mentality.


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## Ashtina98

It could be hormonal imbalance. I would suggest taking her for a physical, this is a hard time for girls as their hormones are so out of whack and cause them to behave very strange. Of course, you are her mother and you know what is best for your daughter, good luck and hang in there!


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## Use Less

If I read correctly that there are only you two most of the time, I would think you both feel stifled. Like living in a fishbowl, and aware of each others' every move and word. For your daughter, this could easily mean she is forced into being dependent on you for pretty much everything, including social interaction, at the age when kids need to begin separating emotionally from parents in order to stop being little children. Yours is a situation where home-schooling doesn't sound like the best plan. You are doing this to be close to her?? but it sounds like it is making her nuts. I would seriously advocate for school. Is there a small Christian school you could get her to? So drive an hour. It would do you good, too, I think, to take a part-time job where you could associate with other adults and get away from thinking every minute about what's wrong with your child and your relationship to her. Sue


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## mtnest

Someone mentioned manic depression. I am leaning towards that thought myself. Bi polar disorder is the bigger issue since manic depression is a side effect of the disease. It is not something to take lightly and I would highly recommend taking her to an evaluation. It will probably take a few visits for the doctors to accurately assess her condition but please don't wait. If she is not affected with bi polar you would be able to rule out that possibility but, if she is, the sooner she receives the support and treatment, the sooner she can begin to feel normal again. Your daughters symptoms are so diverse that it points to being bi polar. People with this disease struggle constantly to try and level out the extreme mood swings and mental anxiety and that often results in situations where they seem to enjoy some "normal" aspects of life and yet at the same time, discard other routines. If she is bi polar, she can be effectively treated and her life a lot more settled for everyone involved.

You sound like you love your daughter very much. It is good to see a parent being so involved with their child and I hope that you will actively look into this possibility so that your relationship with her can be restored.

Personally, I would not remove the best friend from the picture until you have had her evaluated and possibly treated. I could see that removal as a definite catalyst for even further depression.


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## mamalisa

Most teen age girls could cheerfully qualify for a diagnosis of bi-polar, however, they aren't. They are just teen-aged girls!

If you take away the "best friend" be aware that it will make things worse, not better. Your daughter is quite correctly seperating from you. She is developing values, judgements, thoughts and opinions that are valid for her though they may not be valid for you. Since you canNOT think her thoughts for her, you will not succeed in making her stop thinking about her friend.

Allow her to find her own interests AWAY from you. She needs, desperately, her own space.


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## lonelyfarmgirl

I wouldnt remove the best friend. I realize that would cause meltdown. I did speak very discreetly with best friends mother, who is (naturally) oblivious to the situation. she aggreed not the say anything to her daughter, but to keep a sharper ear to what is happening on her end. I certainly dont want to crush what little trust my daughter has that led to her telling me the best friend issues.

she has done a bit better lately. the prospect of a part time summer job with the neighbor has really excited her. soccer starts in 2 weeks, and so does the fishing club.

My mother suffers from severe SAD (seasonal, whatever disorder?) I wonder if that is genetic? because practically the minute the weather broke, she was 50% better.


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## longshadowfarms

Your first post described my son to a T as did the more recent posts describing the virtually instant change of attitude. He is bipolar. PLEASE get her to a dr for a complete workup consider finding a counselor to help you walk through this together! There's enough family history to warrant a look at a minimum. Our son has not had any luck with any medications but we have all been learning how to at least live with it and how to work through the highs and lows. My sister was also bipolar and I never saw it in my son because it was expressed so differently. He is TONS easier to live with now that we at least know what we are dealing with and have learned some skills to handle it. His counselor is an 80 yr old grandfather/pastor and has been such a help and support to us. Life is 100 times better today than it was a yr ago.


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## Atropos4

I noticed while reading this it sounded like I was at her age. I WAS being molested and when I finally got the curage to tell my parents that it was another family member, my parents swore me to secrecy because "It would upset the family." I'm just saying....I didn't tell them for many years because they had exactly the same attitude toward it that they would know. They didn't.

Also, many many many...nearly every poster has mentioned getting her to a therapist ASAP, yet you ignore that aspect of the post and pick apart the other. I was just wondering if you were adverse to helping her in that way? It may possibly the only thing that will truely help you and her figure things out. I'm not saying put her on medications, that's your choice, but at the very least PLEASE take her to talk to a counselor/therapist. If she is that depressed, she may very well be suicidal. Please do not take any chances. This whole thread hurts my heart.


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## mdharris68

It sounds like this child needs unconditional love and acceptance from parent/parents. If she was raised as my firstborn son was, she was expected to do too much at too early of an age. By this I mean in all areas of life, she was not allowed to grow up at her own pace, but was driven to except things that were before her time. I forced religion on my family with a heavy hand and expected them to be part of a perfect image of a "Christian" family. What I ended up with was a son who hated me from about the same age as this girl, until he moved out at 17 and now understands that I never was perfect, just hypocritical. Thankfully I was given four more chances to change my ways and I think my relationships with the other kids are alot better although not perfect. I could go on and on...............but this is just one aspect that gave the same results as the original post.


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## laughaha

Bi-polar typically rears it's ugly head when a person is between the ages of 18-28. Your daughter is way too young. Manic Depression is EXACTLY the same as Bi-Polar, just a different term. 

If you took her to a psychiatrist she would be diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder and put on medication to "mellow" her. ODD is the new ADD. ODD is a ridiculous diagnosis that only means that the child is oppositional and defiant. Almost every teenager in america could be diagnosed with this. 

Your daughter is having major mood swings( caused by major hormonal swings), which is completely normal for a girl her age. Sorry this doesn't help. I've worked with lots of girls like this who did not need medication nor had they been abused (sexually, physically or emotionally). Most would swear they were abused emotionally by their parents when the parent in question would look at them the wrong way (disapproving eyebrow lift). 

Just want to let you know that it will get better once her hormones balance out. Birth Control Pills are good for regulating hormonal swings, but so is getting rid of all sugar and caffeine. I agree that exercise is good and when she is playing sports she should get a bit better. 

She is testing you and your love for her. She doesn't want a best friend, she wants parents and structure. At least this is what worked for almost all of the teenagers I worked with. 

Whatever you decide to do, don't try a whole bunch of different parenting techniques in rapid fire succession, it will not be pretty.


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## naturewoman

I haven't read this whole thread. The OP was enough for me. Speaking from personal experience, this girl sounds like she has been emotionally and or sexually abused by someone. She is so busy defending/protecting herself, she doesn't have time to care about anyone else.


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## naturewoman

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> now this is ridiculous. does anyone ever read previous posts before commenting? I already said NO!


My mother would have said no too...yet I was being sexually and emotionally abused by my step dad. It can be a hard thing to acknowledge.


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## longshadowfarms

laughaha said:


> Bi-polar typically rears it's ugly head when a person is between the ages of 18-28. Your daughter is way too young. Manic Depression is EXACTLY the same as Bi-Polar, just a different term.


Not necessarily. Our son has what is called early onset bi-polar. Actually, he was from an orphanage and was seriously abused so it could also be post traumatic stress (same end result). No family history so we don't know. At any rate, bipolar is NOT just seen in older teens. Our son showed symptoms at 6 when he came here.


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## tltater

I've been following this post since you started it and agree with several people on what could be going on. But, I was just wondering, have you taken her to the doctor or set up something for her to talk to a councelor or psychologist or anyone else? It seems your looking for answers, people are giving suggestions but the most important one seems to be being ignored. Please at the very least take her to get a physical and talk to her physician.


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## no hurry

Hi Lonely farm girl,

I know several people have mentioned depression and you mentioned SAD. These can definately be inherited. All the women in mom's family have some form of it, myself included.

I have had trouble with depression since about that age so I can tell you, if she is depressed due to a chemical issue (that may well be genetic) a therapist and perhaps medication should be lookied into.

I know some people don't believe in meds, and I respect that (so please dont attacke me).

When I get depressed, I also have anger issues. 

The winter intesifies my depression to where I suffer a lethargy that makes me slovenly too. I am a very clean person normally, but depression can literally suck the life out of you.

There are a number of online surveys from reputable sources that she could take to get an idea of where to start.

You can order the book,MIND OVER MOOD as a workbook. I was older when I did it and did it combine with therapy and meds but it sure helped.

You sound like a really loving mom, maybe its not what you are or are not doing, but some chemicals in the brain not cooperating.

Just my 2 cents, having suffered for a long time before the diagnosis at the age of 23. I am 31 and still have problems with it, but I am getting much better at noticing it and getting treatment sooner rather than later.


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## jolly rancher

Do NOT say NO to the possibility of sexual abuse. If your daughter spends time alone on the week-ends or even spends time with other people in group settings there is a possibility of sexual abuse. A close family member of mine was sexually abused as a 4 year old by a 14 year old boy of a Christian family. This child told his mother in innocent trust and the case went to court. As a 12 year old child your daughter could be hiding from the embarrassment and shame of having this revealed. Most children feel ashamed even though they are not to blame. Get her to a Christian counselor who is experienced in these matters. It will make a world of difference!


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## lonelyfarmgirl

I am officially bowing out of my own thread. I will not read anymore, nor comment anymore.
The amount of people commenting here that seem to think I allow my daughter into a situation in which she is/could be having sex makes me want to puke.
Those children here in public school have a whole heck of a lot more possibility for that to be happening than my daughter.

Bash me, continue to pornificate my daughter, I dont give a crappity. Im done here.

To those of you that made helpful and educated suggestion, thank you.


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## AprilW

No one said your daughter is having sex of her own free will. They merely suggested that it is a possibility that she is being ABUSED sexually. Child predators don't wear signs stating what they are, they are clever and can mentally subdue a child into believing they deserve this or cannot go to their parents about it. 

Whether your daughter is being abused or not, she does need help. Obviously your daughter does not want to talk about her problems to you, so perhaps a doctor or counselor would be better. Sometimes problems can be solved simply by talking about them, others can't be and need to be addressed correctly.


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## bstuart29

One person mentioned the abuse angle was enough but then several people had to suggest that again and I think it would bother most parents if a bunch of people harped that their kid might be being abused without more solid evidence.


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## Tracy Rimmer

At this point, I'm going to close this thread. It's counter-productive at this point, and really, not precisely a topic for The Classroom.

However, I would like to point out that when one comes to an internet forum and asks for advice, you aren't always going to hear only opinions that agree with your own. You will get all sorts of posts from people with all sorts of life experiences which may be very much like your own, or very different from your own, but they will reflect their own experience, and in the end, that is really what one is looking for when they post situations on the net looking for input.

Please be aware, too, when posting an opinion on a thread asking for advice -- especially when it comes to one's children, that there are certain things that should be approached with understanding and consideration. This mother made it very clear that she doesn't think her daughter's problem includes abuse of any kind, and she is in a better position than any of us, strangers, to know this. The fact that it was brought up, probably by someone with more experience when it comes to child abuse than this woman has (although I don't know her and am simply assuming), was a valid point -- but she did say that this was not the case, so please, if we are here to give suggestions, consider that suggestion made, and move on. 

All of us have life experiences that differ. That's what makes the internet such an amazing place to gain perspective when dealing with situations and problems in our own lives -- it allows us to anonymously gain that perspective, and in a relatively short amount of time. But we should be aware that in asking for it, sometimes it is exactly what you will get -- and you may not like the form it takes, but you should be respectful of the fact that someone took the time to bother to give it to you when asked.

I hope that you find the answer to what is ailing your daughter, lonelyfarmgirl, and I hope it's nothing more than teenage angst and dissatisfaction. Those, while difficult to deal with at the time, soon pass with few consequences. Please, just remember that you ASKED for opinions, and got many of them. Some were not to your liking, but NONE were given with the intent of hurting you.


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