# Adding lime and such to clay soil. Do I have too?



## Adrescher7 (Nov 23, 2011)

Well Id like to plant a large garden. as in maybe 2 to 3 acres. Now my neighbor, an old livestock farmer whos lived on the same plot of land since he was born, tells me that if I want a good harvest, i need to add lime to my soil im planting on, or the crops just wont grow good. Now I firmly believe the old farmers are the wisest out there, but I don't think Ive ever heard of any other farmer I talk to around here adding lime or anything other then fertilizer and water to their crops. What do you figure? the soil is mostly clay, should I add anything to my soil or will corn and such grow just fine with out it? and if I should add anything, where in the world do you get such a thing? Thanks in advance


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## Lenape Sadie (Jan 18, 2012)

A soil test is the answer. It will tell you what you need. Proper ph is of vital importance. Lime is readily available at Lowes, feedstores etc


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Corn is a heavy feeder and doesn't do well in clay. We don't put down lime, but do save our wood ash to spread over the garden because we have clay and a lot of pine trees around.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Lime will help raise the Ph if needed.
Sand will "lighten" up the clay if drainage or compaction is a problem 
Organic materials will help make things better all around.

Just because "you've never heard of" others using lime doesn't mean they don't do it, or don't NEED to do it


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Lime can be considered a fertilizer. I was told that lime helps the fertilizer do a better job. A soil test is the best way to know what your soil needs.


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

You can get it at a local fertilizer company.Plus most fertilizer companies will sell it to you in bulk,and will put it out for you.For small gardens,the FC also has 40 lb bags of lime as well as Lowes and Wally world.The thing is with out a soil test theres no way of knowing how much to get or whether you need to add any or not..In NC,the county extension service has the forms and the soil test boxes.Free,then you take samples,take them to the county extension service.They will send them off to be tested and you will receive the results either on line or by mail. Also the test will let you know how much N P K and small nutrients are in the test,and recommend what your soil needs.


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## am1too (Dec 30, 2009)

Adrescher7 said:


> Well Id like to plant a large garden. as in maybe 2 to 3 acres. Now my neighbor, an old livestock farmer whos lived on the same plot of land since he was born, tells me that if I want a good harvest, i need to add lime to my soil im planting on, or the crops just wont grow good. Now I firmly believe the old farmers are the wisest out there, but I don't think Ive ever heard of any other farmer I talk to around here adding lime or anything other then fertilizer and water to their crops. What do you figure? the soil is mostly clay, should I add anything to my soil or will corn and such grow just fine with out it? and if I should add anything, where in the world do you get such a thing? Thanks in advance


Compost, compost, compost, compost, compost, compost. Did I say compost? And I do mean by the ton.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Look at your soil. If there is moss growing on it, you probably need lime.


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## idigbeets (Sep 3, 2011)

Yes you'll probably need to lime (there are different types) or use something like gypsum, aragonite etc. A soil test is a good starting point. Make sure you take a consistent sample (same depth) in an X pattern across the field you want to grow in. Also, avoid taking samples from different areas e.g. low areas or up on swells, wet areas etc. as these can skew the test results.

Most likely if the soil has been left fallowed for a long time it's going to need lime.

DO search around for this, buying from Lowe's/HD etc is REALLY expensive. On my land it's not uncommon to add 2 Tons of lime to a newly cultivated acre. Lowe's is something like $4/40lb bag, that's $200+ / Ton. A little shopping around for me finds it at $60/ton bagged ready to go from a wholesaler. Also, you need to consider how you're going to incorporate the lime (or other) into the soil. Calcium is upward mobile in the soil so dropping it on the surface will only impact the first inch or so. You can disc it down (on heavy clay this won't do a lot but it's better than nothing), but depending on your soil type you may have to consider double digging, sub soiling/chisel plow, or tilling it in.


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## DanielY (Aug 25, 2011)

No you don't "Have" to lime. We have really bad clay soil here. I either dig it out and replace it with top soil or build raised beds. Most garden plants will not grow well in clay soil. Tomatoes like ti but forget root crops. corn will not do well in it either.

Adding lime causes the clay particles to break up. you can then add lots of compost.
A good general soil will be a mix of sand, silt and clay. but the clay content needs to be small. Adding compost helps develop the silt. Do not add sand directly to clay it will make something much like concrete. You need to break up the clay with the lime first then add little bits of sand each year. The lime also takes years to work.

You will need to monitor Ph along the way and correct as necessary. Folks around here learned a long time ago it is easier to build a raised bed and buy dirt than mess with the clay. I saw one soil analysis recently for clay soil that recommended 1.5 tons of lime per acre. 

I like a soil that comes out 40% sand, 40% silt and 20% clay. In getting that you will know without question why a farmers most valuable asset is his land. not the crops but the dirt itself.


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## DanielY (Aug 25, 2011)

Breaking new ground. I decided to add this about breaking up new clay soil and what to expect. pick you garden spot and get an soil analysis that recommends the lbs of lime per acre. apply that and then grow a grass of some sort. oats, wheat, barely etc. you can harvest the grain if you want but most important til that grass in each fall. Repeat including the analysis for 4 years. If you have any sort of livestock let them graze the grasses but don't let them kill it. If you have pigs or can borrow some let them root the patch prior to plating it to a garden. but you now have 4 years of lime breaking and compost added to that soil. Now grow a garden on it for 4 years rotating the types of plants you are growing, Whole other lesson. after 4 years of gardening again grow grasses on that patch for 4 years. Again it is best if livestock can graze that grass as they continually fertilize and build up good things int eh soil. again let the pig plow the patch. I this way you want two separate garden patches. one growing grasses and one growing your garden. every 4 years you switch.

If you garden by square foot methods and continuous harvest even an urban back yard is large enough. you can use the grains in your garden rotation and not necessarily loose that space as far as food production. It is a lot more complicated than I put here but the basic principal is that grasses grow where other things will not. and they add good things to the soil if they are tilled back in. their roots slowly break the soil layer by layer And then compost it when tilled. meanwhile the lime is doing it's work deeper down bringing up the nutrient rich clay in a form that crops can access it.

So in a nut shell grow what will grow now and lots of it. improve the soil always which means leave more than you took. and improve the ground a little each year rather than try to do it all at once. in the mean time you may have to grow a garden in containers.


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## frankva (May 21, 2009)

After the soil test, ask him where the old manure pile was...

Then ask him what did well for him and what did not.

Valuable resource of information.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Adrescher7 said:


> Well Id like to plant a large garden. as in maybe 2 to 3 acres. Now my neighbor, an old livestock farmer whos lived on the same plot of land since he was born, tells me that if I want a good harvest, i need to add lime to my soil im planting on, or the crops just wont grow good. Now I firmly believe the old farmers are the wisest out there, but I don't think Ive ever heard of any other farmer I talk to around here adding lime or anything other then fertilizer and water to their crops. What do you figure? the soil is mostly clay, should I add anything to my soil or will corn and such grow just fine with out it? and if I should add anything, where in the world do you get such a thing? Thanks in advance


Based on your questions, here is the right place to start: http://cce.cornell.edu/learnAbout/Pages/Local_Offices.aspx

Find your county extension agent and schedule an appointment.......that person is working constantly with gardeners and farmers in your county, and will have answers that are specific to your needs. Just guessing, but your questions seem to me like you don't have much experience yet with gardening, and need a starting place from an expert, rather than an old codger who could more codger than farmer. 

A soil test will be your first step in getting information as to what your soil needs. Your county agent can advise you on what to do and how to do that--and what to do afterwards...and where to get your lime and any other fertilizer you need.

To get two, maybe three, acres into a garden, it will take some fairly large equipment (more than a small rototiller and a rake and hoe) Do you have that equipment lined up--and can you use/rent it during the working window that clay will throw at you? By that, I mean that clay can _only be worked _at a very definite period of drynesss--if you work it wet, you will be sorry the rest of the growing season........so you have to have the tillage equipment at hand ready to go before the next rain.....

As for application of lime on clay, keep in mind it has to be stirred into the soil and allowed to work over a fairly long time to make a difference in any acidity--probably at least one season before you see any real effect......so, regardless, you could go ahead and plant this year and take what comes--it might not be too bad, as most plants will grow well enough in a range of soil pH. 

Drainage and compaction are two other big issues with clay. Depending on what has been grown there before, and how long it has been tilled--and what kind of equipment has passed over it, you may get a big benefit from a subsoil job. That's a long blade with a chisel plow on the bottom that reaches down deep and lifts and shatters the compacted "hardpan" that is there at about 18--24 inch depth....Takes some fairly big horsepower to do that.....but you will get better drainage, and the roots of your plants will be able to go deeper for minerals and moisture.

I'm probably just guessing, but probably you will find your soil slightly lacking in lime(slightly on the acid side) and pretty well deficient in nitrogen--and very lacking in organic matter. If true, I would ask your county agent about a soil building program that will allow you to garden a portion, while building up a another part that you can rotate to in a year or two. I would ask the agent if you could do that with a base of Big Red clover/Mammoth Red--whatever it's called in your area, in a nurse crop of sown oats. The oats will also give you root fiber, deep, as they rot, and that type of clover is easier to start in an acid soil. I would do that first thing in the Spring and just let it go until Fall, then just clip it. Next season, the clover will reseed itself and you can let it go until the next fall, then plow it under to let the winter freeze/thaw action help mellow your ground for next year's garden. You will then have a base of organic matter and Nitrogen, and the lime will have its time to do its job. See if your agent will okay that......

Just remember that Rome(even Rome NY) wasn't built in a day, so don't expect miracles or bumper crops overnight--or with simply applying some lime as the old farmer suggests. But your questions are a step in the right direction..Good luck.

geo


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## Marcia in MT (May 11, 2002)

Our soil was such heavy clay that you could pot with it. And our soil and water are already alkaline, so absolutely NO lime here!

After 25+ years of putting as much raw organic matter into the soil, adding some gypusm, and growing buckwheat and Austrian field peas, the soil is pretty good and everything -- including root crops -- does well.

I agree that a soil test is your first step.

Do you have any experience gardening on a 2 or 3 acre scale? You might want to start small and grow larger as you get more experience.


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## Adrescher7 (Nov 23, 2011)

my gardens are usually much smaller, and do fine, but ive never grown corn before. but i do have an old case(I personally prefer deere), with a brushhog, a plow and some other small farming equipment, and either way im not afraid to sweat when needed. I do make my own compost, but not a large enough scale to coat a whole field with it.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

The farmer who had the land before was probably on a crop rotation of corn, grain, and hay. In that case, he would have needed lime for alfalfa if that was in the hay. But corn, grain, and hay aren't common vegetables. Most vegetables don't need extra lime and prefer soil on the acidic side. Unless you are absolutely certain that your soil pH is below 6.5, you do not need lime.

Martin


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## Packedready (Mar 29, 2011)

How much does it cost to have your soil tested?


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Packedready said:


> How much does it cost to have your soil tested?


Try this: http://ucanr.edu/County_Offices/

Looks like you will have to call your ag extension office and ask. I don't find any easy references for California

geo


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

We have fairly heavy clay soil on our property. I have been actively working to improve it for a number of years.

I would first say to NOT add sand to your soil. In our experience it does nothing to "lighten" the soil. Instead it seems to make soil rather cement-like!! We only did a small area with some left over sand from another project, and it didn't grow anything until I added organic matter and tilled it all up together.

For our clay soil, the addition of the organic matter is the key to "lighter" soil. The pieces of vegatation hold the small particles of clay apart, preventing quite as "sticky" dirt when wet or very dry. The more vegetation, organic material, I can get into the dirt, the easier it is to work, the better the plants do for you.

I would also strongly suggest you get soil test done for proper application of needed minerals. Lime is a great product, but could be you actually need nitrogen or the phosphorus, so buying lime is wasted money.

I am responsible for keeping our fields producing grazing for the animals. Grazing allows us to save a great deal by not having to purchase hay for food. The better the grazing, the more food is available for our animals on our small acreage. 

I have the benefit of being able to spread our stall bedding on our fields, so the wood fiber bedding is a huge benefit to the soil as the organic matter. I lightly work the pastures to open the dirt, fertilize, seed any bald spots, drag to cover the seed and get organic matter into the opened dirt. You would not recognize the fields now, if you had seen them when I started. The land was weedy, lots of plantless areas, overgrazed grass areas. The bedding getting worked down into the dirt, helps hold the soil particles apart, provides food for the micro system and helpful creatures in the soil. They actually pull the organic material down and deeply into the soil, to let plant roots use it. Makes it easier for plant roots to grow and spread widely in the looser soil.

So while it sounds kind of weird, you may want to check around for available animal bedding, horse stable with sawdust or wood fiber bedding, to get a supply from. You may be able to get it free for the asking. I would get it before they do composting, or plan to get twice as much if already composted, to mix into my proposed garden location. Compost just doesn't have the bigger pieces of organic matter to hold the soil particles apart unless you really can put in on in HUGE quantities. Straw bedding just breaks down too fast for me, only lasts about 3 months on my field, then gone, unlike the wood bedding. We have a man who brings a small trailer each fall, takes all our horse bedding for probably a month. He gets the trailer and empties it about every other day, brings it back. He is REALLY enthused about how much improved his LARGE garden and fruit bush plantings have gotten with the bedding addition. He had to call on family to come pick, he couldn't use it all for his family. Some bedding he works into the dirt, while other stuff is just used as a mulch around the berry bushes. We clean stalls daily, so the bedding removed is not totally soaked or fithy dirty with manure. His timing is good, saves tearing up the fields spreading during the rainy season in fall.

I also use the wood fiber bedding in mulching my gardens, special trees, and the plantings all are doing quite well. The wood breaks down, goes into the soil, holds moisture for dry times, has lots of worms working in there which makes for lots of air in the soil.

I would probably buy a couple bags of the sawdust or shavings bales at a farm store like TSC, spread that on my garden and work it into the clay if I couldn't get any stall bedding locally. Maybe even a few bags, if my garden was quite large. You want a nice, thin layer of the woody stuff over the whole garden. Not just a sprinkle here and there or it won't be too helpful in getting the clay particles apart. Chopped or shredded leaves in the fall on the garden area will help you too. Worms LOVE shredded leaves, they will break down quicker for you than leaving them whole. Whole leaves will clot up when wet, maples are famous for that, but not a problem if chopped or shredded. Oak leaves just don't soften at all! May blow away if left whole, so mowing or shredding them will keep them where you put them for the many benefits leaves provide. You can run your mower over the leaves to shred or mow them small right into the bagger, then use the leaves for spreading on the garden. LOTS of people drive the streets at night and steal bagged leaves because they don't have enough!! I find it amazing how a pile of leaves bigger than a car, only shred down into MAYBE 3 small bags full. I never have enough shredded leaves. They also make good mulch if you want to use them for that.

Wood organics do use Nitrogen to breakdown slowly over time. Wood does NOT "use up" al the Nitrogen as is sometimes claimed. Wood may lock it up for a while, but the Nitrogen does go back into the soil when the wood is done breaking down, may need that lime application to make the Nitrogen available to the green plants. This was explained by my fertilizer man when I questioned the change in various minerals for application after a new soil test. I find it amazing how minerals interact, all are needed in the correct volume to keep things growing well. My soil needs had completely changed in 3 years, with spreading bedding heavily, working the soil a bit, mowing and grazing the fields. Results were the proof it worked, horses had grazing from May to late Oct., with no need for supplemental hay during that time. And the fields continue to improve, produce needed pasture, with even more animals grazing the same small areas. And the pasture grows well even in summer heat, drought times of over a month in July-August heat. Happy plants with deep roots in aereated soil that lets them get moisture and food. And the flower gardens look pretty good too!

I would sure rather be growing stuff on clay than sand, though the need for the organic material you add are about the same. Both types of soil need a LOT of organic additives to help the dirt. Clay just doesn't dry out as quick. In time, you will be HAPPY with your clay soil. All starts with the soil test, get it done as quick as possible. 

The testing service quickly gets overloaded in spring doing farm testing. Waiting will put you behind schedule if weather pulls any surprises on you. I didn't get my fertilizer down last spring because I didn't get my soil test back in time. I test about every 3 years, to make sure there are no surprises taking place. Went from muck dirt to HARD in about 10 days, so I lost my "window of opportunity" with other demands on my time.


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