# Is it true that steers are more dangerous than heifers?



## batx (May 20, 2017)

I was told you need to get rid of the steers at 6 months if you work closely with your cows and move them around a lot for grazing purposes because they are much more dangerous and aggressive than the heifers to be around. Is that true?

Our goal is not to make them an income generating source but just to graze the land. I don't want to endanger the workers who move them but if they are really no more dangerous, I'd want to keep them. 

I was also told they would need their own enclosures because they won't be content to simply hang out with the herd and may break through the electric fence. 

Thanks!


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

I think somebody is spinning you a yarn. 

I keep steers through to 18mnths-2years. They are grass fed and rotationally grazed which means moving on a regular basis. The constant handling and moving means they quieten down and become a piece of cake to move. They certainly do not need their own enclosures and if you try to do that they will more than likely try to get out of the enclosure to get back to their herd. And damage themselves in the process. 

Heifers can be the ones to cause problems as they have a tendency to want to come on heat! This can mean they will bellow, jump fences, jump you and jump each other and generally cause mayhem for a few days. Not all of them of course, that is a generality but I do often curse my heifers.

You will be fine keeping whatever you want.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Ronnie,
Thank you so much for answering my question!!!! Hmmmm, very interesting!!!! I'm going to have to do a little more research and I'm sure I'll have a followup question. If you don't mind me bugging you again, is this the best place to do it? 

Thank you again!!!!


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## ridgerunner1965 (Apr 13, 2013)

basically steers just want to eat stuff. thats about all they are interested in. in 52 years of living on a cattle ranch ive never seen a aggressive steer. they can get playfull and run up on you and jump around but ive never even heard of anyone being hurt by them.

anytime ive almost been hurt or seen someone hurt it was by a adult cow. some bulls can be aggressive but we always took them to the sale barn immedietly.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Wow, thanks ridgerunner!!!!
It seems that Ronney was right about someone spinning me some yarn (what a cute expression). I really appreciate this. I'm going up against a board who wants to sell the steers, so all this information is going to be very helpful. I want to make sure the picture I paint is as accurate as possible, so I welcome any more opinions.


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## ridgerunner1965 (Apr 13, 2013)

a funny cow story, i was working cows with my brother and big 1400lb cow ran me out of the pen and over a 6ft pipe fence. he proceeded to tell me what a sissy i was and that cow would not hurt anybody. i told him i had kids to support and was not going to be crippled by one of his mean cows.

he ran and jumped in the pen with her and she ran him up the fence quicker than she did me. she had her nose in his hip pocket. he sold her as soon as her calf was weaned!


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

That is hysterical!!!! Who knew the women were meaner than the boys!!! Well, as a woman, I can see that .. we are not as strong but we are a little unpredictable  

The cow expert this neighborhood has hired is very trustworthy and has a great reputation. I keep wondering why she is so certain it's the males that are the dangerous ones. I really don't think she would purposefully lie. We are using an electric wire and are moving the cows from pasture to pasture once every 3 days or so. The 30 cows are having their babies now and we are trying to grow our heard to be 100 (20,000 acres). Because they feel the steers must be sent away at 6 months for safety, I suggested making this a home for rescued cows or some that are too old to have more babies and aren't of much value, but they said because they are in there walking with them, they need them to be of a certain temperament. They do come running when she calls, like dogs. They just follow her to the next area. I'm so confused!!! I'm presenting my case at a board meeting in a couple of weeks and I am having trouble finding actual facts. So, to reiterate, THANK YOU FOR SHARING!!!


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## ridgerunner1965 (Apr 13, 2013)

if yu have the grass i would just let them grow.the fatter they get the more lazy they are. if yu rotational graze them, when you open the gate to the next pasture they may get kinda spunky but no more than the rest of the cattle,they just want the fresh grass.

look at it this way, a small 6 mon old calf will bring more per lb but if you have grass going to waste,why not get the calf bigger and sell it for less per lb but more money?

probably the least aggressive group of cattle yu will ever be around is a bunch of fat lazy well fed 1000 lb steers.


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## ridgerunner1965 (Apr 13, 2013)

you have 20,000 acres? where are you?

here in mo i could run 100 cows on 500 acres and still have room to cut plenty of hay for them.

i have been out west and the grass is much thinner i think. much less hay per acre also.

id say here with 400acres and 100 acres of hay ground you could easily run 100 cows.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

I think someone is feeding you horse poop. Most of our steers are very friendly


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

Our steers are some of the easiest to be around. The cows and heifers are the most unpredictable. I even feel safer around our bull than most of our cows.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

If someones steers are more dangerous than their heifers, I would say they need to review their castration protocol. And bloodlines.

As far as pressure on fences, and ease of handling, weaned calves may be a little more difficult to deal with, particularly while being weaned. There are many advantages, from a management perspective, to trucking out all the steers at weaning, and keeping only replacement heifers. Feeding them all out on grass will cut your number of head sold per year almost in half. Sounds like someone is trying to talk you into a cow/calf operation, instead of a cow to finish operation. Most of the commercial industry revolves around cow/calf producers selling weaned calves to finishing operations. 

If you are going to finish, on grass, you need good grass, and sometimes that is hard to pull off when doing cow/calf and finishing. Unless you keep your numbers really low to keep up with things like droughts. Some people that gear up to finish, even in a grass finishing scenario, do finish only, no cow/calf. Makes management a little easier, provides a resting period for pastures, but does require capital outlay and attention to sourcing of replacement feeders.


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## collegeboundgal (Jul 17, 2005)

Maybe she was confusing the steers with bulls? Dairy bulls have a, deserved, bad reputation...


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

batx said:


> Ronnie,
> Thank you so much for answering my question!!!! Hmmmm, very interesting!!!! I'm going to have to do a little more research and I'm sure I'll have a followup question. If you don't mind me bugging you again, is this the best place to do it?
> 
> Thank you again!!!!


Batx, what type of cows are we talking about here? I have another view to offer up.

Generally speaking, I agree with others in this thread about it generally being the cows who are meaner. However, I have raised some Jersey steers who were meaner than all get-up... Males of dairy breeds, from my experience bull or steers, can be very aggressive. Especially if worked with closely, ie: tame. So with that said, perhaps your source of information had experience more with dairy breeds?


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## Jlynnp (Sep 9, 2014)

The easiest cattle I have raised are Angus steers. They get to be big babies and I have never been scared of them. Now I have also worked with dairy cattle and a cow in season can be a handful to be around. I had a Holstein heifer who was the most destructive cow I have ever owned. When she left I was so happy to see her go.


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## Jennifer L. (May 10, 2002)

Someone is using the word "steer" to mean a bull. People do get mixed up on nomenclature some of the time. Steers are generally easy going whenever I've been around them.


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## PermaAMP (Jun 13, 2013)

I agree with the others. Steer are the least of your worries. Protective cows and their calves are far worse. And of course you NEVER turn your back on a bull. I too have some funny stories.

My cousin decided to lease the neighbors land and buy the cattle on it. The first time they rounded them up for sorting there were a few rank cows in the group. One smashed my aunt against some railing. The funniest though was a family friend. He was climbing up the railing to get away from a particularly crazy cow when that animal got her head between his legs then somehow mananged to flip him off the fence and onto her back. Thankfully he didn't have an 8 second ride and managed to get back onto the railing again.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

All of you are the BEST!!! I had not expected so much help and am tripping over myself to keep thanking you. 

Hey, I have another huge question for all of you!!! Now that we know steers are safe for the workers, i*s it safe for the cows to be in these small spaces with the steers or do they need to be in separate pastures like I've been told. * I've also been told they each need to be in huge pastures because they'll fight with each other and need tons of space. I was told they'd beat up the girls and hurt them. They are in smaller areas to graze and then moved often. Based on what you all have said, I'm starting to think this rancher has just never had older steers to know they are more docile because, naturally, she is sending them off for slaughter... maybe???

PermaAMP, I wish you had video of the shortest cow ride! 

Jennifer and collegebound, this well respected and experienced person definitely knows the difference between a bull and a steer. I'm going to talk to her this week to figure out why there is such a discrepancy. As far as I go, I've learned all this lingo in a last couple of weeks!!!

Shannon, Jyllnnp, and Collegebound, great point. I definitely know these aren't dairy cows. This person only raises cows for meat at their personal ranch. I will find out the breed but I'm going to say it's angus mixed with something. Basically, they wanted cows with a great disposition that are easy to handle, but they have a mixed breed to make sure the mothers are just aggressive enough to be protective because we do have predators.. coyotes, mountain lions, etc.

Alaska and Oregon, thanks. Having this confirmation is outstanding!!

Ridgerunner, we are in central CA. It's 20,000 acres. 18,000 are the protected lands that they want grazed and the rest is for homes. I'm really lucky to live in this beautiful country and I love seeing the cows!


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Steers will ride cows when the cows are in season, sometimes the cow will ride the steer. If there is a bull around, not as much of that will happen. Heard of a steer in with a bunch of heifers that gave himself a rectal prolapse trying to do something he just wasn't cut out for. Have never known steers to bother cows to any great extent though.

I think you might be missing the age factor. Steers won't be ready to butcher in most cases straight off the cow. Most will be closer to two years old. So you will have to take them off the cow and wean them. They will want to go back with their mom. You have to fence them to separate them, initially with very strong fences. Then you have to keep them separate, or you will in some cases have a newborn calf competing with a yearling for milk. The only danger I can see, as far as a handling issue, is that a large group of yearlings, regardless of if they are steers or heifers have the combined intelligence of a handful of pocket lint.

Most people send them to market at 6 to 8 months, straight off the cow. From there they go to a finishing operation for several more months. If you are going to keep them around after weaning, you could try to put a few older cows with them, it has a tendency to calm down a group of yearlings. They act like a flock of birds when there is a big group of them and no old cows that have some sense. I think this might be what this person is talking about, but it isn't a sex thing so much as an age thing. With yearling cattle, most times it is good management to supplement them with grain during weaning, to make the transition from milk to pasture easier on them and not lose pounds. Feeding grain to a large group of yearlings adds a degree of labor, and risk to your operation, above what you would have shipping them out straight off the cow.

Some people use "group of steers" to mean a group of yearling feeder calves, heifers included. The steers bring the most, they are the ones people are most proud of. An example would be "nice looking bunch of steers you got there", even though half of them are heifers.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Batx, it is better to keep different groups of stock separate when possible. One of the biggest reasons for this is feed competition - large cows or older stock are going to chase younger stock off the better grass and also eat more. Younger stock should also be given the best grass that is available and if not allowed to chew it to the boards, they can be followed up by older stock. Cows with calves at foot should definitely be kept separate when at all possible.

Cows should be no meaner than steers with the same type of handling. However, motherhood does need to be respected. A newly calved cow has a youngster to protect and she will do so if she thinks you're getting too close and she isn't happy about it. Back off, check that the calf is healthy and has fed and come back tomorrow for a better look.

I think you should come and stay on my farm for a week

Are you being asked to put in some sort of management strategy to the board?

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Just thought I'd post a photo of how mean steers really are!








He was Jersey/Angus and as soft as butter. I was feeding the calf for a neighbour that had to attend a family funeral and he decided the steer would make a good surrogate mother. Poor steer was very long-suffering about it.


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## ufo_chris (Apr 30, 2010)

PermaAMP said:


> I agree with the others. Steer are the least of your worries. Protective cows and their calves are far worse. And of course you NEVER turn your back on a bull. I too have some funny stories.
> 
> My cousin decided to lease the neighbors land and buy the cattle on it. The first time they rounded them up for sorting there were a few rank cows in the group. One smashed my aunt against some railing. The funniest though was a family friend. He was climbing up the railing to get away from a particularly crazy cow when that animal got her head between his legs then somehow mananged to flip him off the fence and onto her back. Thankfully he didn't have an 8 second ride and managed to get back onto the railing again.


Sorry fail to see the funny .
Those people could have got killed!


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## ufo_chris (Apr 30, 2010)

collegeboundgal said:


> Maybe she was confusing the steers with bulls? Dairy bulls have a, deserved, bad reputation...


That's exactly what I was thinking.
Not just dairy though.
But sure sounds like u can insert the word bull for steers and if that person that told her that doesn't know the difference then they shouldn't be in charge!


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## PermaAMP (Jun 13, 2013)

I never said the first one was funny. And yes they/we could have but no one did. Neither got more than a small bruise from the ordeal so therefore I can say it was funny to watch the second one. Not to say I wasn't concerned while it was happening. 

That is another reason why you should always be cautious around new animals. You never know how they could react.


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## collegeboundgal (Jul 17, 2005)

just a thought, but is this consultant buying these steers from you?


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Animals respond to training. If you work on training your heifers for milking, and put the steers on the back 40 where they rarely see people, than sure your heifers/cows will be safer than your steers. If you handle them every day like they're full sized animals, they'll be well behaved full sized animals.

That said, I have two 13 month steers. They were supposed to become oxen, but I was sick for several months when I should have been training them. So I've just now gotten well enough to try working them again, and they're trying to mix the familiarity we had when they were babies with adult urges to push things and mount, and it's a dangerous combo. I'll be shipping one off and doing remedial training of the other.


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## wannabfishin (Jan 31, 2014)

all i can say is that you definitely need a new "cow expert"


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Barnbuilder and Ronney,
THANKS!!! I didn't get the notice I had replies, so I'm glad I came back to check! 

Hmmmm, interesting. So, knowing the steers will be 'safe', I wonder what I could recommend doing to keep them all together, so the steers can stay. Because we want to grow our heard and we are not looking to become ranchers, just keeping them all until their old age sounds like the perfect solution for us. The board wants to have the cows eat the weeds etc. After that, they just care that the workers and cows are safe. I wish I knew more to help recommend how to do this. They've just been planning to sell off the boys at 6 months and then keep adding new ones each year by AI. Because they don't think they have any other options, any alternative ideas needs to come from me. Ronney, I am going to put together ideas for the board. It's not that they want me to, but that is my only option if we'd like keep the steers. Barnbuilder, I didn't realize the steers would jump on the cows. Hmmm, maybe you are right and that is why they think they aren't safe? Are steers that much bigger that they can hurt the cows by doing that? If the steers can't be kept with them, can all the steers stay together in a second fenced off area .. even if it's next to the females? We only have portable electric fencing at our disposal for budget reasons. 

Ronney,
I worked on my dad's horse farm for a summer, so no, you can't trick me into coming for your farm for a week  .. I KNOW how much hard work it is!!! I call the summer I mucked stalls the summer I built character and callouses !!!!!! 
However, you are in New Zealand and that's the most gorgeous place I've ever seen, so it may be worth it just to see it again.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Oh, two new replies just appeared for me. Wow, I love this group of people who are so eager to help!

DLskidmore. Sorry you were sick. It's a shame to send one away that you wanted to keep. I wish you luck and maybe you'll get lucky and help the one you plan to send off. 

Wannabfishin. This has all been so confusing because our cow expert truly is well respected and has a stellar reputation. I think she is a really nice woman too. Long time ranching family etc. This really makes no sense but obviously everyone here has a unanimous opinion. I'm going to go meet with her again to make sure there is nothing I'm misunderstanding.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Ok, now I'm seeing even more replies.. thanks ufo, perma, and collegebound

I'm not positive but I believe we got our cows from our expert, but she isn't buying them. She has her own ranch and all the cows she wants there. In fact, if they have to go somewhere, I'd like them to go to her ranch because she uses a Temple Grandin designed slaughter house. I'm sure there are others that are as good, but I just know if it's by Temple, it would be a humane end. 

I'll find out more and get back to all of you. In the meantime, if you come up with a plan to keep them all together without having to hire new employees, do share!!! i'll invite you all for dinner


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## wannabfishin (Jan 31, 2014)

Wannabfishin. This has all been so confusing because our cow expert truly is well respected and has a stellar reputation. I think she is a really nice woman too. Long time ranching family etc. This really makes no sense but obviously everyone here has a unanimous opinion. I'm going to go meet with her again to make sure there is nothing I'm misunderstanding.[/QUOTE said:


> Im thinking that somebody is misunderstanding something. steers would be the last thing I'd worry about with cows calves and bulls being around. although it sounds like you might just be utilizing AI so no bulls around. steers have the least amount of hormones so in turn they usually give you the least amount of problems.
> does this cow expert have any way of making money off the steers if sold. did she offer to take them off your hands for a "reasonable" price


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Oh, I forgot to answer that questions. No, we don't have a bull. I actually asked if that was a nicer experience for the cows and they told me AI is safer because sometimes a bull can hurt the cow.. break their backs etc. 

I'll check but I do not believe she has any financial stake in this. If I didn't know her, I'd be VERY suspicious, but I don't think that is the case here, but I will double check. Perhaps they secretly do want to make money from this and they are just telling us these stories so we think selling them is necessary ? I'd like to believe that isn't true, but that is the only thing I can come up with unless I'm just mistaken. (and I certainly could be the one at fault, but I don't really think I misunderstood.. I'm just trying to be open minded!)


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## collegeboundgal (Jul 17, 2005)

Soooo. Just for clarification, what's your thoughts on when you would be selling tube steers. They really could/should be sold around 12 months to 2 years. If you are wanting to keep breeding the cows what were your plans for the calves? As much fun as it sounds, you can't keep them all... Well, you can, but it can get expensive fast...


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I don't think I would fool with cows if I didn't get at least some money out of the deal. Your pasture has a limited carrying capacity, and when you reach that threshold, new calves are going to have a hard time competing. Steers won't hurt cows. In the absence of steers, cows will ride cows that come in season. Big cattle regardless of sex can hurt small heifers that are in heat, but most will fall on the ground if there is too much weight. Every once in a while I have seen a heifer hurt by a really large bull, but it's a rare thing. I usually prefer a large bull, so that heifers that are on the small side don't get bred. They will lay down on the ground for a big bull, a small bull will breed every one of them if you have him in with small heifers.

It seems that the presence of a bull cuts down on the riding activity. It's worse in a group of females that aren't getting bred and settled, the ones riding are either coming in or going out usually. It is possible to have a cow riding a cow riding a cow and so on. These big "trains" and their related shoving matches are what hurt heifers, in my opinion.

AI is good, but most people that use it do it as a one time thing, synch every cow with hormones, get them up and AI, and then after one cycle turn out a bull for cleanup. If you are expecting to exclusively use AI, you better plan on having an AI tech on staff, he will be busy. 50% success rate is good to shoot for. But if you aren't in it for the money a bunch of open cows isn't a big deal. Especially if there are a bunch of older steers using up resources.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Barnbuilder. I feel like I'm in cattle college. So much to learn!!! That was great!

Collegebound... In my head, it makes perfect sense why we'd keep the steers. If our goal is to grow the heard to 100 in order to have them act as lawnmowers, my thought was why continue to breed them and send off half the offspring and then do it again and again. My thought was if it's possible to keep them, we would reach our 100 goal faster and we'd have bigger steers which would presumably eat more than the cows.. and everyone would be happy ?? Make sense?

Tomorrow I'm meeting the person in charge to ask a bunch of follow up questions. I'm going to ask when we intend to do the castration (so we can make sure we do it early enough to keep the steers acting like cows and not bulls).. what breed they are... 
And now that I have more of an education, I'll ask more questions about why they feel they can't have steers when we know they're safe. 

I think you all are saying it's best not to have them all together, but not because they are steers, but just because it's good to separate the young and older cattle in order to limit the competition for food so the young ones aren't limited... I'm a little unclear about this part, but maybe you can clarify.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Huh, don't even know where to start here However, I agree with BB's post (#34) on stock behaviour and bulls. Bulls very definitely cut down on the riding behaviour simply because they are top gun and any other animal attempting to do so gets a short shrift. Therefore the cow only has to deal with the chap doing the deed!

AI is used by many, particularly in the dairy sector, but also by those in the beef sector looking at on-selling heifers for breeding. It gives the advantage of being able to choose semen from your bull/s of choice. It also involves quite a bit of work starting with the "cedering" of all you cows to bring them into synch on a short time-frame and you will still have to run a clean-up bull to catch any that missed. Your paperwork will have to be bang on so you know which calved to AI and which calved to the clean-up bull. And yes, then you have to organise an AI tech to do it and it has to be done when in standing heat which means having markers on the backs of cows........

Personally, I can't be bothered with trying to do a job that the bull can do 100% better. I aim for the meat market rather than the breeding market and can achieve what I want, including replacement cows, through buying in a good quality bull. I keep him for 2 years and then he either goes to the works or gets on-sold if somebody is interested in him. Damage to cows by bulls does happen but it's the exception rather than the rule. I've never had it, a large station I worked on had one in the 17 years I was there and they had 1,000 breeding cows. 

Re you post to Collegebound. I take it your goal is to run 100 head maximum? But then what? Even lawnmowers use petrol and eat money so you need to put in place a management strategy to keep x number of cows and x number of calves and to sell off the rest at weaning which will bring in some income on an annual basis. You will grow your numbers as the years go and after the 3rd year (approximately) you will be able to send finished cattle to the works which will make room for the next lot coming on.

Yes, we are saying not to run mixed aged groups of stock together because of the competition for food. Rising yearlings are not going to be able to mix it with adult cows - the cows will get the best of what is available and the yearlings will go backwards.

And that's why my silly comment on coming to my farm for a week. You would appear to have been to NZ? Did you get to the Far North?

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

_I'm guessing this is something similar to a homeowners association, and you are looking at grasslands management for the purpose of fire suppression. If your goal is grass management, I would think machinery and a little controlled burning would be cheaper than cows, if you aren't going to approach it as a business. Your local wildlife would probably like it better. 
Your plan looks like a fast track to end up with a bunch of old cows, old steers and cows that won't breed. Cows that get missed, which would inevitably happen in an AI only program, have a tendency to build up fat on their reproductive tract and get harder and harder to settle. 

They are going to need mineral supplements and possibly vet care, as well as supplemental feeding from time to time. I would approach it as a money making endeavor and at the least bank some funds to take care of unforeseen circumstances.

Steers that are grown aren't going to eat as much as growing stock, pregnant cows and cows raising calves. Doesn't take much for them to survive, they are really better off that way. 

Most people that would be in a situation like what I am assuming you have, simply rent the land to a rancher. Or lease it. You can put things in writing as to minimum head on the acreage, and you could end up with the proper number of cattle dumped in there almost instantly. Use the rent money to pay property taxes, or make improvements.

Electric fence is nice, and has it's uses, but you would probably benefit from some handling facilities that are more permanent. What happens when you need to doctor something? You need a good working pen, and possibly a barn of some sort for temporarily compromised animals to get out of the weather while recovering. They do make portable corral panels that you can use to make a working pen, but they aren't cheap. Sometimes ranchers that are in the habit of renting grazing land, already own a portable corral._


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

HI!!! I learned a LOT today and will put it together and post a follow up tonight or tomorrow. I can't thank you enough for everything you've been contributing because I had much better questions to ask. BE BACK!


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Ronney, Auckland was as far north as I got. Can I assume you are farther north? What a slice of heaven! I'll go back one day!!!


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

I meant to say last night that I hoped all went well with your meeting today and it seems that it did. Look forward to hearing the results.

Yes, I'm a 5 hour drive north of Auckland just outside the small town of Kaitaia which is the home of the 90 Mile Beach. Pity you didn't get to see that while you were here and do some fishing from it. If you ever get to come back, you know where I am.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Hi FRIENDS!!!! 

Ronney, thanks for sending good thoughts the night before the meeting! My husband would love to fish with you!!!!! I'll look you up when we eventually come. I've moved 3 times in the last 2.5 years and am so content to be at home right now, but I'm sure the travel bug will come back!

Ok, here are my notes from all of you from my meeting with the head of the organization. She is not the cow expert, but the cow expert runs the program. 

When telling them we can keep the steers because I’ve learned they are not more dangerous than cows, they have now said it’s not that they think the steers will attack the people, but…
they will want to wander, unlike the females, and they will want to break through the electric fence, which means they’ll all go, and will therefore damage property, get hit by cars, or cause danger to the staff when they need to go into the rugged country to try to find them. (There are only 120 homes in 20,000 acres, and I don’t think this is more rugged than ranches I’ve been to in Texas, just to give you the picture of where we are)

Steers shouldn’t be with the females because they will try to mount them and therefore push them through the fence or cause them to push the cows into the workers. Being in the scuffle is how they could hurt the workers

They said the information we are getting from you or Temple Grandin isn’t applicable to us because we are doing something so different that has not been done before. They said if you came here, you’d realize this is very different. They said no one has ever tried doing a grazing program among homes in an environment like this. That no one runs steer with a thin electric wire and they use real fencing. 

Our calves are approximately 2 months old and the males will be castrated by 3 months. We have 8 bull calves this year. 

They are in talks with someone to send the bull calves straight to a slaughterhouse when they are 10 months old to sell them at a low cost. 
They would take them in the middle of the night because they said it’s less stressful for the cattle because it’s at night and dark and they are all tired.

They will put a thingie around the calves noses at 6 months in order to poke the moms when they try to nurse and then the moms will walk away. They said the calves don’t feel this. 

Ours are a hereford and angus mix with a little of short horn. 
They said it's a well thought out mix of cattle that will be gentle enough to handle and to move from place to place on foot, but aggressive enough to protect their young from predators. 

Any that are old or sick enough will need to go because they won’t be safe here because they move them around so much.

Out of our 20,000 acres, there are only 6,000 of acres we are trying to have the cows graze.

We don't feed our cows anything other than the weeds and grass, so there is no feed cost.


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

You're in California? Aha, therein lies the problem. Just kidding....or maybe not? I believe you need a new cattle expert. I'm not going to attempt to address all the issues in your post above, but I will suggest a few things.

Get the male calves castrated by a vet sooner rather than later.
Ten months is too young to send them to a slaughterhouse.
Ship them anytime of day. I doubt the processor is open during the night.
Wean the calves without putting "thingies" in their noses. Separate them from the mothers at around 6 months and keep them separated.
Use as much electric wire as you need to contain them. "Real" fencing can be pushed over quite easily. 
I have nothing to say about the hereford/angus/shorthorn mix. Handling cattle of any breed can be risky.
If they are too old or become ill, get in touch with a qualified vet and address those issues.
Six thousand acres of weeds and grass? I'd like to know how your expert plans to catch them on 6,000 acres! Maybe Rowdie Yates can help out?
Sell out your animals to the other members of this cult and be done with it.
I can't believe I actually replied to this post.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

G Seddon.. I am grateful you replied to this post!!!!! Don't gooooooooo .. I need all the help I can get!!! 

If shipping them at night really isn't nicer to the calves and mothers, then my thought is perhaps they want to do it at night so the residents don't see it happening.

Sorry, just to clarify for you, the total is 6000 acres, but they are putting them in little areas with electric fencing and then moving them every 3 days. They keep a close eye on what they are eating because they know if there isn't enough, they'll go through the electric fence. I agree with you that 10 months is too young, and I've just learning about cows! To me, it's wasteful. You are ending lives early and ending more lives for the same amount of meat. Even I can do that math 

Also, just to clarify... I don't agree with much of what they are telling me.. I'm just sharing with you all so you can point out what you believe is inaccurate because I don't know enough to be sure. I'm presenting my side to the board next Friday and want to make sure I'm accurate. I absolutely feel that your and Temple Grandin's advice is very valuable!!!

Oh, WHOOPS!!!! G Seddon.. I just re read my post and saw I wrote we are castrating at 8 months.. I fixed the error.. the answer is THREE months!


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I keep hereford angus shorthorn cross adult steers in with a single strand of electric all the time, but not having an actual physical fence between them and traffic is pretty irresponsible. All it takes is a tree limb or a wild animal to make no fence, the cows or steers won't be the problem, as long as they have food, if they run out of food, they will jump whatever fence you put up.

From a cattle managers perspective, I can see what they are trying to do. I wouldn't do it that way.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Thanks barnbilder! it's interesting to know that you don't think steers are any more likely to break through the fence to wander than the cows. At least that is what I think you are saying. And hey, you make a great point. If they are concerned about a steer getting in the road, they should be concerned about the females too.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Steers would only break through a fence to wander if they were running out of grass to graze. Bulls will break through anything they can and wander if they get a hankering, but not a steer, at least not in my own experience. 

I don't like the way the "experts" are pushing you around and making it something it isn't. I run Brangus and Charolais cross cattle, learned some wonderful things here from several members who are posting to you. It has all been very accurate information and I have used almost everything I've learned to some degree. I would be hesitant to embark on the project that is being forced down your throat, it sounds like those people are absolutely shady at best, flat out liars at worst.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Somebody in that group has their eye on those steers. 10 month old calves to slaughter, weaned and put straight on grass? Yeah right. In the beef industry, calves at 10 month old that are weaned are marketed as "backgrounded" (usually requires some vaccinations too). They are worth a premium to sell on open market or straight to a feedlot for final finishing. Sure, somebody might keep a couple for butchering, have them processed so that they can show off a few packs of beef to everyone involved as an example of their product, but rest assured, the majority of those steers are payroll for somebody involved with this operation. That is why they are pitching it the way they are.

They are using the weaning devices to gently wean the calves, so there is not noise the day they take the calves away. They are doing the roundup at night because they realize their will be some noise, trauma to the cows, because after taking off the weaning device, or in the cases that the animals remove the weaning device, their will still be unweaned calves. They don't want to expose the homeowners to the perceived trauma to the cows from taking the calves away.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Thanks Barnbilder and Oconnor!!!

I did find one guy online that said he takes them to slaughter in the middle of the night because they are calm then.. hmmm, so maybe there are some people who do that? I get that people in TX might do it that way in the summer so the cows don't get too hot (spoked by someone who has lived there  but this will be February in CA. 
BTW, Barnbilder and G Seddon, I'm from MD.. not too far from you!
I digress, this is the quote I found online.....
" I personally take the animals and leave in the middle of the night when they are calm and it’s cool."

Interesting, I thought the devices on the noses do make the calves wean.. I don't understand why they will still be unweaned calves. It doesn't really matter of course, but now that I'm becoming a cattle expert  

If they were going to be grass fed and grass finished, wouldn't this be how they do it? Killing them at 10 months still makes no sense for a lot of reasons. I have heard of the guy they are talking about selling them to, who would be the one to take them in, and he really may just be doing this to do a nice thing for the schools and to educate the kids on grass fed etc..He only sells at a local farmers market and doesn't have that many cows a year (not a big business).. but, now that I'm saying this out loud, if all we are doing is taking them from here to the slaughter house, why is there another party doing it .. the more I learn the more questions I have!!! But, this is good because I'm working on my list of concerns and questions to present a at the meeting. 

ARGH ARGH ARGH.. I wish I could take some of you to the meeting with me.. I could have an ear piece and you could be feeding me great questions and answers.. you could be my Cyrano de Bergerac!!!!


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

batx, the whole arrangement you describe sounds very odd to me and, I think, to others who replied to you. I want to suggest that you get a couple of books by Heather Smith Thomas on raising cattle and read them before you get deeper into this arrangement. You can google her name and find her books. They're very good!


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

The calf weaner things work most of the time, but not all of the time. They better be fixed on so that they can break them off, if there is an brush at all, or you will lose calves tangled in brush, eventually. So some will break theirs off and lose them, might even use their back foot to do it. I have heard of the cows messing with them until they can get the calf back in business well enough to relieve the pressure. But even if the things work great, you will have some calves, on some cows that will start nursing again if you were to take those gadgets off. The calves are growing, so those things are going to get awfully tight unless you either take them off after a short period, or adjust them regularly. 

Calves will lose some condition when they are weaned. If they are weaned at six months they are just going to be getting back to where they were at 10 months. If you were going to butcher them that young, just leave them on the cows until they are 8 months, save yourself the aggravation of fixing gadgets on them, and you will have the same pounds of beef, possibly more. By 8 months the cows will be a little more mellow, but they are still going to make noise and tear things up when you wean them, wether it is by putting the calves on a trailer, or putting weaning devices on them. They will tear less stuff up with the devices, because they will see their calf, but it is going to be noisier, as the calve will bawl during that confusing time as well. 

You could always just leave them on the cows until ten months. If the cows are bred back, they will start drying up anyway, and most of them will wean their calves naturally, or at least be in the process. The amount of noise the cows make and things they destroy is in direct proportion to the amount of pressure they feel in their udder. Six months is too early for me, I've got the cows, they have work to do, and I don't like drying a cow off when she is in high production, I don't believe it is good for udder life. I usually go 7 or 8, and have it timed to when grass quality is low, high nutrition equaling high milk production. 

Somebody is setting themselves up to make some cash off of this operation. It really should be all parties involved. While I don't figure keeping steers around to die of old age makes good business sense, the answers you are getting on your end regarding why not to do this bring up some interesting questions of their own.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Wow, you are certainly being asked to work with some plonkers who would appear to have no clue at all. While I'm not normally a cynical person, when it comes to these 10 month calves, I too am starting to wonder what is going on. I had thought it would be great for one of us to go with you to support and back up what dealing with cattle is about but obviously distance makes that impossible. Where is MD and how far is "not too far from you". Or are we talking "country miles" where "just up the road" actually means 20 miles away. 

I'm going to insert by quote some of what you have said:



batx said:


> When telling them we can keep the steers because I’ve learned they are not more dangerous than cows, they have now said it’s not that they think the steers will attack the people, but…
> they will want to wander, unlike the females, and they will want to break through the electric fence, which means they’ll all go, and will therefore damage property, get hit by cars, or cause danger to the staff when they need to go into the rugged country to try to find them. (There are only 120 homes in 20,000 acres, and I don’t think this is more rugged than ranches I’ve been to in Texas, just to give you the picture of where we are)


Steers do not want to wander unless they run short of food. On the other hand, cows can be very good at getting through fences in search of a bull. Infrequently but it does happen and often with injury, so their reasoning is somewhat ignorant. Barnbuilder is quite correct when saying that not having a solid fence that is not electric along the road is irresponsible. I have what we call post and batten with electric on out-riggers. I don't want somebody killing themselves running into a black Angus in the middle of the night. Added to the fencing, I run cattle on half the farm behind 2-wire electric, the lower wire to stop calves going walkabout.

Forget nose guards and wean properly and by that I mean take the calves off the cows. There will be about 3 days of bellowing and then everything will quieten down. With 6,000 acres of land you should be able to do that easily. Weaning usually occurs between 6 and 8 months of age which will have given the calf the best start possible and still leave time for the cow to get into good condition for her next calving.

Trucking out in the middle of the night doesn't make sense at all. In fact, working with stock in the dark in quite stressful for both them and you - you can't see what you're doing, they can't see where they're meant to be going, it becomes a nightmare. We flash flood and more than once I've had to move stock at 2 in the morning. Helps to have a good dog - which I do. If they're doing it because of people's perceived sensibilities, they need to look at whether they want to run stock at all. Yes, that one is definitely odd. Stock travel at night here but it's only line-haul stuff and delivery will be whenever the truck arrives even if it's 3 in the morning.

Nothing wrong with Hereford/Angus - which I think you call Black Baldies? I have a couple in my herd thanks to my neighbour's bull and found them to be easy to deal with and a good cross. Don't know what the Shorthorn input will do, have had nothing to do with them. 

Another thing I thought about today, was that although there will be limited expense in feed, has consideration been given to fertilizer, lime, drench, soil tests, blood tests, vets bills etc. and even a bit of supplementary winter feed such as hay?

There have been some good posts by oconnor, Barnbuilder, G.Seddon and I agree with most of what has been said - surely we can't all be wrong! You're getting the same information not only within your own country but also from the other side of the world which sort of indicates how odd the ideas your employers are having. But keep on asking and we'll keep on trying to help

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Ronnie, on the shorthorn. From what I've seen, it will add some weight to your black baldy calves, and add docility in replacement heifers. Also a good haircoat in winter. On the docility, you have to watch pedigrees some of the show stock has had some additives that can make them a little "high headed". Sometimes too, docile equals stubborn.

There is a lot of advantage to a three way cross, you can have what is called maternal heterosis. Your brood cows have hybrid vigor, and the bull you put over them can give a fresh shot to the calves if he is a different breed from the breeds that make up the cow. This would be the British three way. They all mesh pretty well. You can make your brood cows hereford shorthorn, and run an angus bull, your cows will be red and all your calves will be black. I always thought a red cow did better in the heat.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Again, thank you barnbilder, Seddon, and Ronney!!!

Sigh.. it's so hard to know how to tackle this because everything they are saying is so misinformed.. unless every single one of you is daft  Just kidding.. 

The cattle expert is really well regarded around here, and I liked her based on my limited interaction (I usually am a pretty good judge of character) ....so there is still a disconnect, but perhaps it's the leader of our organization who is misinformed and is not relaying the information properly from our cattle person ???? I'm trying to dig into this now and should know more in a day or two. 

HAHA Seddon, maybe the problem is CA 
and thanks for the book recommendation!

Regarding the finances..... I didn't want to bore you with too many details, but now that we are old friends..... How are neighborhood is set up is there a conservancy that is charged to manage the land and is responsible for 18,000 of the 20,000 acres. We also have a separate homeowners association for the residents and we are on the 2,000 acres. I'm a resident, and the leader and cow expert are a part of the conservancy. We all have a close working relationship but they are their own separate entity. They even control some of the land our homes are on. The conservancy has a large endowment, so they do have money to take care of whatever needs to be taken care of, but they are trying to be smart about it and only spend a certain amount a year so their money lasts.

I was in Maryland, near the DC and VA border. VA is a big place, so I was either 5 miles or hundreds of miles away  
Then I was in Texas and saying you are in the next state is rather hollow because it's bigger than most countries !!!
On that note, when I was in Texas, we lived across a lake from a small cattle ranch and part of my daily entertainment was watching their cows blow through the fencing and slowly walk away.. to then watch a guy on a horse bringing them back hours later.. I used to cheer the cows  

From EVERYTHING EVERYONE has said, and correct me if I'm wrong, it seems that there is no good reason to get rid of the steers, except for finances. So, if they really want this land worked, and if they aren't selling the calves just to generate income, then it would actually be in their best interest to keep the steers because the heard would grow faster and therefore their goals would be accomplished that much faster. TA DA!!!! 

Fact check time!!! Again, correct me if I'm interpreting anything incorrectly.
Steers are not more likely to jump on the cows then the cows are ..
Steers are not more dangerous for the workers to handle than the cows
Steers are not more likely to go through the fencing.
Steers can stay in small quarters with the cows
Your main advice is to keep the young away from the old, but sex is not relevant. And this is only so they don't compete for food .. but if there is enough, it wouldn't matter?


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Somebody is mixing in a lot of feel good mess and maybe some woman's lib, the steers are the bad guys, that doesn't have to be. As far as doing something new and never done before, no. The plan is to raise cattle and it has been going on for years.

I think there is a reasonable rational behind the plan, grazing to reduce the load of dry vegetation on the land to prevent fires. Just sounds like too much extra mixed in.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Hi Allen W.. welcome 

So, I could read your sentence both ways, so let me clarify.. I THINK you are saying that it's womens lib that the steers are the bad guys.. But, that you are saying, steers aren't the bad guys. If you meant, steers really are, let me know your thoughts because that would be contrary to everything I'm hearing from this group of knowledgeable and uber helpful people!!

And funny, I said it was reverse discrimination to send off the boys.. !!! I was sticking up for you!!!


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## collegeboundgal (Jul 17, 2005)

Steers should be sold to the slaughter house at around 18-24 months of age if grass fed/finished. They eat the grass you all are trying to keep in check and gain weight. Older steers=bigger stomachs to fill=more grass eaten=more lbs=more $ per head. Might not get as much per pound, but you'll have many more pounds to make up the difference. 
example: (I am pulling these prices and wights out of my arss but the bigger the animal, the less $ per pound you'll get) a 400lb steer brings $2.50/lb= $1000 But a 800lb steer brings $2/lb=$1600

Steers are less _likely_ to jump fence. Motivation for fence jumpers are likely for food, for sex, for escape/scared. Steers don't care about sex. Sounds like food shouldn't be a problem. That leaves predators scaring/chasing them. If a whole herd is being harassed by dogs, a 5 strand of barbed wire wont stop them. 
Steers and grown cows alike can be dangerous. Cows even more so if they have a young calf.
Steers won't ride cows anymore than other grown cows would ride cows.

The fact that the story of *why* steers are being pushed to be sold so young bothers me about this whole deal. The story of why they have to go keeps changing.


batx said:


> The cattle expert is really well regarded around here


If very few, if anyone, in your group has experience with cattle in your area, who, exactly, thinks the expert is so well regarded and regarded by whom? 
We rotate cattle on our farm. When the cattle see you every 2, 3, or 4 days, they become much more... domesticated? (Unlikely to stampede to the next county) That goes for ALL of them. They see their people and they know that they are getting fresh grass. They look forward to seeing you/them. 
How were the experts going to separate the cows from the calves when it came time to sell? During this time is the most dangerous for the handlers. The better/sturdier the facilities, the less dangerous for the handlers. (never totally save mind you). 
Cattle rustlers struck at night for more reason than just because they couldn't be seen. Cattle are more pron to panic at night because they can's see and most predators hunt at night=cows running off into the night, breaking legs.
It's SOOOOOO much more dangerous for handlers to. If this experts is all about safety, why oh why are they wanting to do the most dangerous part of cattle business during the most dangerous time? This whole deal sound more fishy by the meeting...


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

batx said:


> Hi Allen W.. welcome
> 
> So, I could read your sentence both ways, so let me clarify.. I THINK you are saying that it's womens lib that the steers are the bad guys.. But, that you are saying, steers aren't the bad guys. If you meant, steers really are, let me know your thoughts because that would be contrary to everything I'm hearing from this group of knowledgeable and uber helpful people!!
> 
> And funny, I said it was reverse discrimination to send off the boys.. !!! I was sticking up for you!!!


I THINK you are saying that it's womens lib that the steers are the bad guys..

Yes that is what I was insinuating.

Honestly I think steers would be better suited for the plan then a cow calf operation. Numbers could be varied as needed to take advantage of the grass growth. No baby calves to be left behind while moving, no bulls to put up with, just animals that want to eat. 

I can't help but think that over time this plan should at least break even if not make a profit if managed right, rather it is done with cows and calves or as a steer operation or some combination of both.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

THANKS YOU TWO!! Yes, I admit it. I now wake up and am exited to check for new messages and I have a smile when I find one!!!! 

College,
Thanks for being protective. I agree that one of the more troubling aspects of this is that the story keeps changing. Thanks for pointing that out, and it bothers me too.

I know the reasons why we trust the cattle expert are vague. While I only know that I liked her when I met her and my b/s detector didn't go off, I know I can trust the people who have been telling me how good she is. Even though no ranchers are on the board, we have them in the area and the respect for her and her family is unanimous. Apparently they are pretty well known around these parts. I still haven't figured out why the cow expert's opinions differ so much from yours and Temple's. The only thing I can think of is I'm getting the information from the leader who may be misinterpreting it?? Or maybe it's how the leader wants it done. I'm just not sure and it's very confusing. I can only imagine how confusing it is for you! I imagine some of you are rolling your eyes about how naive I'm being  When I have more information, I'll definitely share it with you because you are invested now !

I'm really glad you explained why moving them at night adds more risk. It really makes sense!!!

Allen..
Wow, I love how you are thinking outside of the box. That is an interesting idea!!!! I really wanted to make this a place for cattle from a sanctuary because what a feel good story that is. It accomplishes so many things. A sanctuary told me we can get all the free cows we could want, everyone who lives here would feel great about it, we might even attract new residents, and a bonus would be that we'd actually attract great positive media coverage.... AND it would accomplish the goals of land management. A win/win/win/win/win/win. I did present this idea at the beginning but they said we couldn't do it. However, your idea makes sense too. The place we live is an out of the box idea, so running this cow program in an unexpected way just makes sense too. 

Your point about breaking even makes sense. I know it is so hard to imagine, but making money from the cows really isn't important to them (at least I don't think so, and gosh I hope I'm not wrong!). I really think they just want to have the land grazed to meet their land goals and don't know what to do with the steers, and they are just looking at the traditional options. The leader has told me that I might be able to send them to a sanctuary or to a ranch as long as they are sure that it's purely to rescue them and not to just have someone else profit. They were just going to send them to an auction when this started, so I assured her that if I approve of a home for them, I was sure she would too because my standards for their wellbeing is most likely considerably higher. But, the best outcome for all involved is if all the cattle can stay together, and I'm learning from you that might be possible... yay!!! 

I watched the Temple Grandin movie last night. Wow, she is more amazing than I knew. Have any of you seen it? 
See, I'm just chatting now because you all have done such a remarkable job answering questions, I don't even have new ones for you today!!!!! Day is not over of course!


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## farmerjan (Jan 9, 2017)

I am a fairly new member on this forum but have been in the cattle business/industry for a long time. I totally do not understand the whole situation but need to ask, what is it you are actually trying to accomplish? Graze the land, or produce calves, or provide an old age home for cattle? Cattle have a purpose, to provide meat and milk as a sustenance for humans. They also provide a hide for leather for clothing and footwear. 
Life expectancy of cattle is in the 10-20 year range. Different breeds, different longevity. If you want cattle to graze the land, then you would be better off with animals of a uniform size so that they gain in a uniform manner. If you are trying to have a cow/calf operation, then you are going to be breeding them to produce a calf yearly. The bull calves are castrated early, most are banded at a few days old for ease of handling for the farmer. The calf will get weaned off the cow in the 6-9 month age range, and will go to either be fattened and finished for beef, ie. consumption; or the females raised for replacements and bred to calve at about 2 years old. If you are looking for this to be a rescue/old age home, then you will not find they will utilize the grass as well. Cattle's teeth wear and the older they get the more worn down the teeth get so they cannot graze as well when old. They will lose weight, get sick, malnourished, and then die. What is the plan for the disposal of the old animals?

Cows cannot just "take care of themselves" in nature. We have domesticated them. We also have diseases that can make them sick, or kill them, that we have to provide protection through vaccination. You want to rotational graze them, and this expert says steers are wilder and harder to handle? That's ridiculous. Most steers are the quietest of the 3 categories; bulls, cows, steers. They have no push for breeding so don't go looking for the opposite sex. They don't get "hormonal" since they don't get pregnant and have babies. 
Understand that there are animals in every group, every breed, and every category of mammals that can have bad attitudes and tempers. People are not all the same dispositioned. Neither are cattle. But for the most part steers are the more easily handled of the three. FAMILIARITY with people is what makes them more tame and to some degree the breed also. The 3 way cross you are talking about will be fine. All fairly tractable type of animals. If you were looking at Brahma or Limousin or Charolais then I would really tell you your expert was crazy, as they are all good breeds but much more APT to be nervous or high strung. NOT ALL, but as breeds in general, they are more likely to be less quiet.
I highly doubt there will be "all kinds of cattle"around that will be free. It costs money to have an animal, and people do not go around just giving them away. If they do there is usually something wrong with them or they are old and going to die anyway.
Even in the perfect situation, what happens if there is a drought? Or flooding and rain for extended periods of time? And what about winter? They very well might not be able to forage for enough food. How are you going to go about making sure they have enough feed? What happens if one gets sick and needs to be treated? What if a cow has trouble calving and needs to have help?
I am not trying to rain on your parade. But there are just way too many holes in this bucket that it couldn't hold a teaspoon of water. This professional seems to have an ulterior motive for the "getting rid of the hard to handle steers" and make some money off this group for their own gain.

I don't have any skin in this game, just a point of view from an outsider looking in. We have been in the cattle business for over 50 years, and have run feeders, and are back to a cow/calf operation. We also do alot of rotational grazing, make hay and raise our own heifers as replacements. Another thing, all AI is fine IF you have the facilities. You will not walk up to a cow in heat in the field and expect her to stand there when you stick your arm up her butt to thread the AI rod into her vagina to breed her. How do they expect to do this in a rotational grazing operation if they are being moved around several thousand acres? A bull is the only answer in that scenario. I am trying to make you realize the vague absurdity of this proposal. I think there is more to this situation and that someone sees the ignorance, as in not knowing any better, of this group to use it for their own gain. Sorry if that offends you, but I think you seem to be fairly intelligent by all the questions you are asking here. And that you have some common sense also.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Hi Farmer Jan!

No, no offense taken!!! I welcome all comments and differing points of view. I'm really just trying to learn enough so I can offer up valid ideas so they can perhaps tweak our plan in a way that makes everyone happy. I feel the worst thing I can do is to simply say 'don't do this' but not be educated enough on the subject to know if there is even a viable alternative. 

I do know they have a portable.. what's it called.. shoot?

I'll update this later to answer more of your questions when I have a few. THANKS!


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## farmerjan (Jan 9, 2017)

Okay, a portable "chute" is one of the first sensible things I have heard. We have one and have taken it to different fields to catch up animals that need some sort of treatment. Realize that it takes more than 5 minutes to set it up so is not going to be a quick to get done thing everytime the animals get moved. We have "corral panels" that hook together that we use to make a portable catch pen so that we can work with the cattle at different places. We rent alot of ground mostly from farmers that are getting too old to handle the day to day stuff, and their kids don't want to help or live way far away. So we have to have portable type stuff in order to work with our animals. 
College bound gal is right. Most animals that are finished for slaughter are in the 18-30 month range. Most 22-28 months. They will weigh anywhere from 1000 to 1500 lbs. all depending on the breed and other things. The idea is to "FINISH" an animal, it has to have enough muscle (meat) so that it will be able to "marble " so that the meat is not tough. Marbling only occurs when the animal has reached a certain state of maturity so that it is not growing frame but is putting weight on in the form of muscle which is what you eat. Marbling is the fat tissue between the meat and it gives it some flavor but it also is the reason it is more tender as it adds juiciness to the meat. More palatable. So anyone telling you that they are taking 10 month old steers or heifers or bulls or ANY combination, to the slaughter house is full of it. PERIOD. Veal comes from calves in the 3-500 lb range that are fed an almost strictly milk diet their whole life. Plus they are penned so that they can not get out and exercise and they do put on weight that way. But it is very pale, actually veal is white because the animal is anemic so the meat DOESN"T get red. So if they are taking 10 month olds to the slaughter house , they could be marketing them as "baby beef" which is tender but there is not alot of it and it has a very mild - bland - taste. 

I am not sure why it is so important that the cattle all get to stay together. They do not form family units like some types of animals. Yes they often can recognize familiar animals, but most don't care much who they are with as long as they have some company of their own breed. Cattle like to be with cattle, not so much with hogs or sheep or goats although they will sometimes form some bonds. There are boss animals and there are those that are on the bottom of the totem pole. Fact of nature.
They do not form the bonds that dogs do, or even that horses do. Yes, I have favorites and some have some real personalities, but the first time one gets hurt or riled up and some HUMAN person gets hurt, there goes all the feel good warm and fuzzy stuff. They are animals, they deserve to be treated kindly, with respect and not abused, but for the most part you cannot attribute human qualities to them. The nicest cow in the world can hurt or kill you in a minute, if she/he/it is hurt, scared, or otherwise her fight or flight instinct is triggered.

What are the land goals that require the cattle to graze? Why not just lease the grazing rights to a knowledgeable farmer/rancher in the area and not get into something that most of you don't seem to know anything about. That way there is some income for the grazing, it is kept cleared and probably will give you access to any tax breaks that many municipalities offer for land kept in ag production. We sign "land use" tax forms for most all the places we rent to afford the owner a tax break, and it often gives us a break on the rent since they are saving quite a bit. There's open space, and a better habitat for the wildlife by keeping the land open.

I am trying to understand the whole purpose behind this so it DOESN'T turn into a disaster or a negative media event. We have enough of them that sneak into farms and portray things in a slanted manner. Not everyone treats their animals like they should; but I know alot of parents that ought to be horsewhipped for the way they treat their children.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Right on Farmerjan. 

Yeah, with the whole let's work cattle at night because it is less stressful thing. I've been there and done that. If you have a barn lot or stationary pen with some piped in lighting of some kind, it's doable. You need lights mounted high. If you are using flashlights, vehicle headlights, or head lanterns it is going to be very stressful, but not really for the cows. It works like this. You walk up to a cow, it looks at you, it is now blind. You try to herd it, it turns from you, and just as it's vision is coming back, it sees a great big cow shadow right in front of it, it turns around and tramples you to get away from the dark grizzly bear that was about to eat it. Wash, rinse and repeat. Lights mounted on a barn, casting shadows down, not so bad.

Next, keeping steers to live out their days. So you have pasture of the quality necessary for lactating cows, and you are providing minerals free choice, in quantities supportive of pregnant and lactating cows. This is not the best nutritionally for steers that are co-mingled. Steers, as they age can get stones, get extremely overweight, and all sorts of things. Talk to some ox-drovers if you want to know about nutritional requirements of aged steers. Just because you want the best for the animals, doesn't mean they are going to get the best. Some animals can be loved to death.

So, you are going to manage range land, with no expectation of monetary compensation, by stocking it with, in effect, non-native exotic species. And this is better than using bush hogs, controlled burns, and managing for native species in what way? At the very least, instead of stocking it with very ordinary commercial cattle, which are not going to be managed with the commercial beef industry in mind, why don't you stock it with some endangered breed, as a means of preservation. Randall linebacks perhaps. That would fit in better with the idea of having cattle around well beyond their productive lives. Some of those breeds make for decent eye-candy, you could sell limited breeding stock and be reasonably assured that the animals you sell would be treated better than commercial meat cows. I still think wildlife management would be more ecologically friendly use of the land, but if you insist on using it for old pet steers, they could at least be cool old pet steers.

If I was involved in this project, my vote would be for renting or leasing the grazing rights. If somebody doesn't meet board expectations, rent it to someone else. This way, you could rent it for part of the year, and part of the year maybe it could be vacant, residents could hike or whatnot without having to worry about electric fences or mama cows charging their poodle. If someone rented it to feed weaned steers and heifers from spring until fall, they could probably do a good job of combustible matter suppression, and leave the place vacant for a few months, if they juggled the stocking density right. Someone in business to make money could buy the cattle to stock the place to the correct density, graze it, and then sell them. You will spend several years figuring out what the correct stocking density is, even after you build up numbers to anywhere close.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Wow, I couldn't be more impressed. Thank you all so much, again and again.
You are asking such good questions and I'm learning so much! 

We used to do it just as you suggested.... the cow expert used to have her own cattle here. I was told by our leader that for some reason the finances of it didn't make sense which is why we started buying our own cows and breeding them. So, now, the cow expert is managing our program with our cows. I hadn't realized (or remembered) that the cow expert was here at the beginning of this place and managing our horse barn. It turns out she knows this place better than most of us. Other members of her family work here or have in the past. 

As suggested to me by another person here, and you, we potentially could stop the breeding program and then she could possibly go back to running her personal cows here again. I guess that means I should ask more about the finances to figure out if this could be a viable option because there was some doubt. I'm not sure why though, and I'm embarrassed to say I didn't ask why! 

In a bit, I'll come back and talk about the retirement home for cows that sounds so good in my head


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Retirement home for cows should involve barns, very small pastures, tractor trailer loads of beet pulp, chaffhaye, and frequent veterinarian visits. I don't see where using animals that don't have, or soon won't have teeth, to manage grass would be very efficient.

The teeth are the first thing to go, when they start going, it is a slow and miserable death. All sorts of metabolic and nutritional factors creep in. Osteoporosis and other similar situations, brought on by advanced age, lead to hip and joint issues. These issues make traveling the distances required to meet nutritional needs on grass pasture impossible by themselves, not counting the fact that not having teeth makes it doubly impossible.

Please, for the sake of the animals, leave this to experienced cattle experts. Despite your good intentions, your visions of shady acres retirement home for cows is going to look more like Auschwitz after reality runs it's course. Sometimes humane treatment of animals includes killing them while they can still make the trip.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Thank you barnbilder, I appreciate your candor. No, I would never ever dream of loving them to death. I am glad you all shared the details with me because I didn't know. If we did this, our plan would have to include some sort of euthanasia (whatever that would be) before this happened to them. I will definitely leave this to the experts. If you had to guess, just so I'm educated, do you know aprox what age this starts to happen? I hear cows live to be 15-20 years old? 

You know, I was really impressed when reading other posts on different threads because I could see how much many of you care about your animals. One person really touched me when he said they were going to let the matriarch of the heard live out her last days on his farm because she didn't owe him anything anymore. He didn't feel she needed to be sold to get every last dime he could from her.. He/she was going to bury the cow on his/her property. It really touched me. I assume he was going to put her out of her misery before she got to sick though. It really was sweet to read.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

farmerjan said:


> I am trying to understand the whole purpose behind this so it DOESN'T turn into a disaster or a negative media event. We have enough of them that sneak into farms and portray things in a slanted manner. Not everyone treats their animals like they should; but I know alot of parents that ought to be horsewhipped for the way they treat their children.


I'll second this. Who is going to decide when it's time to put down an animal, what stage of decline is the appropriate point? The first fall they are in less condition then their contemporaries, the second or third fall or the spring when the grass is greening and they start laying down and dying like flies?

How poor of an animal is acceptable to your local human society? What happens when a resident's favorite cow that they seen up and around just yesterday has to be put down or they find it down and to weak to get up?


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Batx, please don't go down the road of retired/abused/elderly/whatever cows. This can be a hard row to hoe in all respects - emotionally, financially and physically - and you really do need to have an excellent knowledge of cattle. You need to know about their teeth, feet, eyes, bones, udder, arthritis, cancer, musculature, circulation etc. - and have an excellent and honest vet! While all of these things are equally important in young stock, they are even more so in old animals. Barnbuilders post (#64) is very true.

I don't have a problem with a cow/calf/finishing operation but I'm starting to wonder, given the lack of knowledge all round, whether it wouldn't be the smart thing to ease into cattle rather than go at it full tilt. At this point nobody seems to be sure what carrying capacity the land has and that is important as it can be very easy to end up overstocking. I can't give you numbers because I've never seen your place, but you could look at buying in say, 40 M/S 12-15month old beef and when the weaner fairs (do you have them?) come around, buy in another 40 M/S weaners. When the first lot are 20-24months, sell them to the works if finished, or on-sell to a finisher. That starts the cycle going and from there on in you can continue to buy weaners and up or down the numbers as required. Large capital outlay to start with admittedly BUT a good place for everybody to start learning about cattle husbandry without the hassle of calving problems, downer cows, stuck calves, calves that can't/won't suckle, nutritional needs for pregnant cows, weaning etc. However, I don't know how the Board would look at something like that as they appear to be fixed in their ideas.

I'm sure I've missed some salient points that others have made - but they've made them and you strike me as the sort of person to take everything on board and evaluate it. Your next meeting, I think, is tomorrow (my tomorrow - Friday) so good luck with that and look forward to knowing how you get on. 

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Well, you've convinced me not to make this a home for aged cows in shawls and rocking chairs! (not that it's my choice anyway 

When I spoke to the sanctuary, it was in response to our leader saying we needed to breed them in order to grow the heard and had to send off the steers because they are not safe to keep around. So, I thought, hmmmm, when we aren't looking to generate revenue from animals going into the food chain, I said, I wonder if there is a way to get cows that already exit. I made a few calls and they said at times they have herds that need a place to go that don't have health or emotional problems. But, our person said they need to be very picky on the exact temperament of each cow because they work so closely with them on foot. So, even though I would do it if I were king, they aren't going down that road. The cow expert had a valid reason not to want to take that on and she is the expert. They told me that had other cows they purchased once and they all had to go because they didn't respect her enough. I assume that means pushing and shoving.

If we do decide to keep the existing cows around to live out their lives here, your points are fantastic and now we know we'd need to have a protocol to know what we are going to do before it happens. How much do we spend on vet bills before we say enough, or how much should they decline while they still have quality of life. Our expert would probably know, but I think we should have this be clear because she has said she doesn't plan to be here forever. She has her own family ranch.

You asked about the goals. For the conservancy, it's just to have the land worked. For me, I know if we can have all the cows stay, I think almost everyone in our neighborhood would be truly happy they are here and feel a great sense of pride about what they are doing. I think it would even enhance their image (I actually like them but not everyone does, so a little good PR might go a long way). My short term goal is to prevent the conservancy from selling off the cows before they relook at this issue really closely because once those steer go, it can't be undone and many residents will never look at them the same. And to your point, if we can't do this in a way that feels great to us, which would be the first choice, the second choice would be to follow your advice and just go back to leasing the land to ranchers and then we have nothing to do with it.

I can't personally speak intelligently about this, but the carrying capacity of this land is huge. It used to be a ginormous cattle ranch with thousands of cows. I'm sure the word "huge" isn't the scientific term you were looking for 

Now I'll go google at what age cows loose their teeth  So much to learn!!!! And don't worry, I'm not running this thing and they have no intention on letting me! They would only have an expert actually make the decisions.

Funny thing I learned this week....It was the cows that were brought here originally from Europe that brought us the invasive plants in the first place. How ironic is it that we are now bringing the cows here to get rid of them. And aren't they just pooping out the seeds anyway?  

You guys and gals are the BEST!!!!!!! (and farmer jan, I'm with you on horsewhipping some animal, pet, AND children owners


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

Good grief...


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Gravytrain.. yep, this is why I'm not king!!!


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## farmerjan (Jan 9, 2017)

Since the "expert" cattle person that you are relying on so much, couldn't make it work for her, why in the world would you think she could make it work now? OH, I forgot.... she had the money invested in the cattle before, now she wants you to have all the money tied up then she will take the "wild unruly steers" off your hands. But if that isn't working, then they will take the 10 month old bull calves off and sell for low prices. So, let me get this straight....she has no money invested now, you are paying her to be the cattle expert and she will take off the animals that are wild and a possible threat or difficult to work with for a small amount of return because you don't want to make any money at this but want to feel good about this new way to have cattle? 

And they will have calves and increase in numbers until you reach the carrying capacity of the land , then they will magically stop increasing or you will again be selling the excess animals for a small amount to not make a profit. In the meantime, for the safety of the residents in the 120 houses on nearly 20,000 acres, any animals of less than stellar dispositions will be removed. And in this 20,000 acres you will be containing the cattle in small lots to rotational graze them to keep the land in the condition that you feel it should be maintained. Plus any cows will be able to live out their life and there will be a predetermined condition that they will reach then will be humanely euthanized. In the meantime, the steers will be allowed to stay and when the cows get ready to have a new calf, then the baby will not get the necessary colostrum from the cow because the steers from the year before have not been weaned off the cow so will continue to nurse the cow.

I will say this, I do admire the fact that you are trying to learn. But, this cattle expert has found a bunch or patsy's to get you to spend the money on the cattle, keeps changing the story about who/what/when certain animals get sold/removed and is tying it all up in a "feel good" bunch of BS. 

As for reading about the cattle farmer that was going to let the matriarch of his herd live out her life...so....okay. I have kept several of my good old cows to live out their life also. My first guernsey milk cow was over 15 and I was only her second owner. My first bottle calf that I raised and was the foundation of my beef herd also lived out her life. When they got down due to arthritis, I buried them. But I am not running an old age home for cows and when their reproductive life is over, they are sold. If you have an average 1000 to 2000 in a cow , and you raise several calves off her and then she quits producing, selling her as a cull cow will give you a return of 5-750 dollars. Since it is figured with all costs that it costs an approximate average of $400 per year to keep a mature cow; and this is a very rough estimate due to the area of the country etc., and a weaned calf of 500 lbs is worth $500-750 you are not making much money for all your time and effort. And yes, you have all this land etc and so on; there is still a value to be assigned to it and taxes to pay and upkeep of fences and a dozen more things. So at the middle end say you have $200 left from the sale of the calf over what it cost to just keep the cow for the year. That is not counting any costs associated with the calf; vet work, vaccinations, anything like that. Add in a dead calf or two and now you are making less than $100 per year per cow, if it is a good year. If you keep any heifers and raise them to be replacement cows, it will cost you at least $1000-1500 to get her to 24 to 30 months before she has her first calf on the ground. And if this expert doesn't take proper care, and the heifer has a calf too big by not using a proper bull then the calf will have to be pulled, most likely will be born dead, and it can easily kill the heifer trying to calve. Or if she survives she may never be able to breed again so now you have wasted 3 years and nothing to show for it.

One thing that was not addressed anywhere, was if you are going to do all this rotating of grazing, who is going to supply the manpower and the cost of the wire etc for the electric fences, and the chargers, be they electric or solar powered. And if there is 20,000 acres, what about predators and losses. Coyotes, cougars, bears, feral dogs, wolves no to mention any cattle rustling, lightning, animals dying from eating poisonous plants..... 

Cows can lose their teeth anywhere from 8 to 20 years old. Alot of it is due to the type vegetation they eat as they WEAR down. I have seen 10 year old cows with nubs for teeth and I have a 17 year old cow that still has short but decent teeth. There is no "one age" when they "get old". Why do some people die at 65 and some live to 100? Multitude of factors.


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## farmerjan (Jan 9, 2017)

One question I meant to ask. Are the people in this group all vegetarians or against eating meat? Is that why you feel that it would be nice for all the animals to stay for their natural lives? I don't understand the feel good about the cattle staying. Like I said, I have favourites and I have given a "reprieve" to one of my cows who should have been pregnant and isn't. She will get a second chance with the bull this summer but if she isn't bred when we check them in the fall she goes. She has to pay her way and will be 6 months behind as it is.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Well, Farmerjan, you certainly told me !!  JK.. I absolutely know you are trying to help and I love people who are straight shooters.. I'm originally an east coast gal after all !!!

GREAT questions. No, most are not vegetarians. Of the people who live here, I might guess there are less than 10. I think it's more about that we aren't ranchers and don't live on a working ranch .. or at least until now  One person, who is a big beef eater, told me never would have moved here if she knew this was a possibility because she is sad to see the cows now. For you all, it completely makes sense because you probably live on farms, like my dad did, and it was a conscious decision. This particular person likes her meat in cellophane  Full disclosure, I am a vegetarian, but I am 100% respectful of people who eat meat and my wish is just that factory farms go away. My husband is a good meat eating Texan, and I make my own cat food which means I'm elbow deep in raw chicken and liver once a week!

Hmmmm, this might not be a great example, but off the top of my head, maybe picture just sticking cows in the backyards of homes in a typical residential neighborhood and don't ask them about it and say, oh yeah, we are going to send off the cows we don't want. Some people wouldn't care and others would say, hey, I don't want you to breed cows in my yard and then send them away to become dinner. We could insert, horse, dog, whatever.. It's mainly that they didn't choose this and isn't what they want to have happen in the neighborhood. And don't get me wrong, I imagine the majority of people probably don't care. I've only talked to about two dozen of them. For me, while I don't like it, IF we HAVE to turn them into food, I think the meat should be for our restaurant and residents and/or then donate the rest to the needy. Oh, I just thought of another real example.. the developers bought this place from a big cattle rancher and they had cows for a while here. But, when they started building houses, they had the people with cows grazing here leave. I was told it was because we didn't want this place to be a working ranch anymore, so now many of the new people bought here knowing that and now it's changed with no notice. I'm just guessing here and just reaching for explanations because your question about if this is a retirement home for vegetarians was a really good one!!

And I hear you. Trust me, if I were reading this online, I would absolutely feel the same exact way you do!!!! I'd have a nice bridge to sell you! I promise, if you met this expert, you would feel differently. Being a lay person, I just can't properly explain what she knows. You all have been so great and if you ever find your way out here, I'd love to buy you a meal and show you around. You would LOVE this place and you could even meet her. You'd like her!

And thanks.. I'm trying really hard to educate myself enough to speak intelligently about this. And finding all of you nice and helpful people has actually encouraged me to learn more.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I would suggest strategically sabotaging fences in areas frequented by the tender hearted types. First time they stepped in a cow pie wearing their good shoes, had to herd cows out of the flower bed, had their car turned into a cow lick, they would be sharpening the steak knives. 

As has been stated, there is no age on paper where they suddenly don't have teeth, go down in the hips, etc. It is nutritional, and environmental, as well as genetic. Some sixty year old people have all their teeth, some people have dentures at thirty, depends on lots of things.

Getting rid of "unruly" cows and fence jumpers sounds like a good idea, but in some ways is a trap. There is such a thing as culling based on temperament, takes a lot of experience with cattle to determine what is unacceptable. As an old man told me, if you sell the cow that jumps the fence, one will take her place. I have found this to be true, some of these things are influenced by herd dynamics. Your top cows in the pecking order are going to test boundaries and find weak links in your containment system. The others are just followers, but put them in charge and they will become the boundary testers, until you have no more cows. To some extent aggressive behavior over calves can be an age and rank related thing, the extent that they take it to is more genetic, but herd dynamics plays a roll. With all of these behavior problems, there is a huge component of learned behavior, as well. Shoddy fences will train cows to get out, and letting them have their way when they have a young calf will reinforce bad behavior. Just mentioning these things in case anybody thought it was as simple as just getting rid of the non-conformers, as there are more waiting in the ranks.

I've let cows live out their days here. I've also had some that I couldn't wait to get rid of, or that I took personal delight in grilling. Some people think that factory farms treat cattle poorly, (every cattle farm is a beef factory of sorts) chances are they have never seen how cows can treat each other. Some leaders are cruel leaders. When they start to slip, their favorite henchmen, raised under their tutelage, can be quite ruthless. So it is not altogether teeth, it is young strong cows making old cows walk the long way around, making them eat lesser quality food, and the constant pummeling can cause wear and tear as well. It's not all a big happy cow family, more like, if you are old and I am stronger than you, I'm going to see if I can't lame you up. That way, when the lions come, they won't eat me.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Well now I'm just bummed out  

You are a wealth of information!!!! I can see how that happens from my little experience of caring for a feral cat colony. I learned if you get rid of any animal, be it cats, raccoons, etc, you are just making room for new ones. So, I get your point about getting rid of the dominant cow and having a new one take over. I have seen the pecking order of the cats being created and then changing around, so I can only imagine it with the cows. Tom cats will fight to the death too. At least they don't try to maim their friends just because they are getting old. 

How do all the stranger cows/steer mange to get along in the feed lots. I hear there are tons of cows in a small spaces and they are happy eating 'ice cream' .. are they fighting at the same time?

Yeah, when I say factory farm, I mean the places where animals have no quality of life.. confined to small spaces etc. I just think we should pay more for our meat and not do that. But easy for me to say, I understand 

Pretend we get rid of all the steers, can I assume that unneighborly behavior still happens among the females. I don't see why not. 
(as I type that I am reminded of one of my favorite movie scenes.. Kathy Bates in Fried Green Tomatoes when she rammed her car into the young obnoxious woman's car and said 'I'm older but I have more insurance') ..so great!


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

In feed lots, cattle are separated by age sex and weight. Anything that gets sick or weak, might be pulled out to an infirmary pen. They are not in there super long, and half of them are running steers. Steers get along fine. Heifers go through heats, so dynamics are constantly shifting. The numbers can help too, harder to act on long standing grudges when buried in a sea of cows. I have seen cows in my relatively small herd leave hay to go punch a cow they didn't like in the ribs. Mine aren't really that bad, compared to others. It's not like I have Herens cows, just your plain old run of the mill British breeds. Mature cows, which cause the most problems, typically don't go to a feed lot, they go straight to slaughter.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Oooooh, I should have known you were using the proper lingo and when you say cow, you mean FEMALES. I just figured you meant cattle until I saw your comment that steers get along fine. So once again, I think you are telling me how mellow the boys are and it's the females who are the mean girls. 

BTW, I was talking to someone yesterday and I loved that I was using steer, cow and heifer properly and had to explain it because they weren't in the know


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

I am amazed this thread has gone on for as long as it has. I'm still trying to get my head around a zillion cows in a suburban neighborhood of Maryland (not quite, but that's how I interpreted this plan). 

Honestly, batx, back out while you can. If you want to have a cattle experience and have some pasture space with good fencing, get yourself two weanling steers and raise them. You'll learn a lot about cattle and have a good escape route (meat) if you decide you don't like it.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Your group has a admiral idea, fire suppression through grazing. Now you need to find some one who knows what they are doing, an extension specialist, a NRCS range specialist, local university or agriculture research center. This could be a good research project for some one and grants could be available to fund some things..

You need some one to evaluate the project and see what you have to work with and how best to achieve your goals and if other options like a grazing lease would be worthwhile for you. Timing, invasive species control, brush control all needs consideration and should be included by an outside expert.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Hi to my professors at Cow University!!!

Well, I went to the board meeting yesterday. I have no idea how it went, but at least I know is that I was incredibly prepared, thanks to you!! 

The gist of it is that I explained that a number of residents had concerns that the sale of cows doesn’t seem to align with the mission statement of our neighborhood and that we were simply requesting a task force to further explore the discrepancies we learned about (from you, other ranchers and Temple Grandin) and to hopefully find a way to simply tweak the existing program in order to make it a win for everyone involved. Of course, if the findings are that we can’t find a better way, then we obviously wouldn’t change a thing. They seemed like a group of nice, thoughtful and very intelligent people, so I can’t imagine denying a request to have an exploration committee just to try to brainstorm but who knows what will happen because not everything in life makes much sense. I imagine if they voted to have the task force, someone would have already told me about it though.  But, we’ll see! 

The poor realtor here is pretty stressed and I can only imagine because one of the beef eating members who approached me about this is feeling they were mislead when they bought here. I’m trying to calm this person down a bit but I think it will go a long way if we got the task force because then they’ll at least see that the conservancy was 100% open minded and was happy for us to work with them to find a way to make it a win/win/win. It would also help further sales when the buyers, who might mind, find out that they had this wide reaching effort to try to look at all the options. But, it’s done now and nothing left for me to do. 

Oh, one person did comment that I learned a lot.. not to brag, ok, that’s a lie.. yes, to brag, I did!!! 

I’ll let you know when I know!!


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

This is entertaining ,but I feel the cattle will be the losers in this operation. If you don't want to raise cattle for beef don't raise cattle. let the land go and mother nature will run its course. hell put some bison out there after all that was what was meant to be. Bunch of bullsh'.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Yes, bison. Maybe if bison are too wild for you then some heritage breed of cattle that are about to go extinct, although there probably isn't one, in reality. 

Have you thought of this thing from an economic standpoint. If you are producing beef, with no real goal of profit, what does that do to local markets? If you have a bunch of cows for fire suppression, and you are selling steers, or selling packaged cuts, or even just cull cows, and you dump them on the market, you could in effect be driving prices down for local producers. If there are people trying to sell cuts of beef, with whatever buzzwords attached, you are going to be competing with them. If you don't have any expectation of profit, it is not likely that you are going to keep up with price trends, probably selling cheap enough that your product moves in a timely manner. You could be severely undercutting local producers and driving them out of business. And I do predict, that at some point, you will be dumping cows on the market, somebody will eventually get tired of managing, somebody will move, or something. 

Any herd of cattle is a potential disease reservoir. If not operated commercially, I don't see the incentive to keep up with disease monitoring, vaccinations, and such. Sure, you might have good intentions, but for the long haul, I don't see employees caring a whole lot to take care of cattle when their job pays the same regardless of what the profit margin looks like. Somebody that is in it for the money is going to look for answers when something starts happening, and they are going to know when something happens when they look in the books. I'm not sure your operation will work that way, especially if you have a bunch of geriatric cattle. I can foresee a bunch of old cows that are prone to pick up something like pinkeye, and between lax management and inexperience, it could get pretty out of hand. I don't know if there are any other producers close, but my guess is that they wouldn't be happy to have you as a neighbor if you were hosting disease outbreaks. If you entertain the notion of operating some type of farm sanctuary for retired cattle or something, know that there are bovine diseases that you might bring in, Johnes is one that is a whole lot easier to get than to get rid of. It could impact the land and cause problems for the next guy after current management decides that this was a bad idea.

I do believe you have good intentions, but you know what they say about those. Rent it to a rancher, dirt cheap, help the poor guy make a living in a dying way of life. Don't compete with him. And for goodness sake, don't make a Temple Grandin paradigm that can be used a showpiece for animal rights groups to use to put him out of business.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

They did actually try to get elk because actually were native, but the county wouldn't allow it  Many people around here want to do what's natural and native to our lands, but cows, to your point, were invasive. 

I do love the idea of heritage cattle. I think that could be a great idea and be really interesting for this place and then people wouldn't feel odd about letting them live longer. If they allow us to have a task force to look more into other alternatives, I'll bring that up. In Texas, many land owners have pet longhorns in their yards so they can get agriculture exemptions for property taxes. It's actually kind of funny to see huge tech campuses with some long horns just roaming around!

I'm glad you brought up the potential economic impacts of giving away meat. If we gave any away, I think it would only be to the truly needy or to our own residents. Other than that, I wouldn't think that is something they'd have an interest in. And I don't know how many cows we'd need to be selling to even have that impact. Thanks for bringing up that point because it would give me something to bring up if I have the chance. 

You mentioned a dying way of life. I'm curious...
I imagine people eat less beef these days for health reasons, but there are more people and everything in moderation is ok, so is overall demand down? I'm sure cheap meat at factory farms hurt the smaller producer, but I would think the animal welfare aspect would actually help. As people become more aware, don't they want to buy their meat from small farms where the animals were living a more natural happy life? When I buy meat for my husband, that's the stuff I always get. When I buy eggs, I buy pasture raised and never caged. 

You brought up diseases. Ding ding ding!!
One of the neighbors asked what happens if the cows get a disease too. They were concerned that they could leave it in our land for ages and get our wildlife sick. Great great point. They are also concerned about selling our meat and what happens if someone should get sick. The cows could even get something at the processing plant, but after it traced back here, they'll go after the conservancy's endowment and the board. They'll at least be sued even if they don't lose. Glad I'm just a resident  This is one of the things that the task force would ask them to look into.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Farming is a dying business, because small farmers are not being replaced. Their kids are not following their parents footsteps, farms are getting sold off at alarming rates, and turned into housing developments.

In many places, property taxes are the cash cow that greases the rails of local politics. There comes a point that farmers can't make enough profits off of their land, so they have to develop it. When they do, it raises property taxes of existing farmland nearby, creating a vicious cycle.

Farms are tied to the industrial food complex in many ways. With cattle, most producers hand off their calves to someone else at weaning, for finishing. Some of these are sent straight to a feedlot, some summered over on grass and then short finished at a lot. Feedlots are often operated as a family farm. Many of them contract with a large corporate entity, but the land is theirs, and it is a long running family business. They look like industrial farms to many people, so many people don't support them. Grain finishing has been driven by consumers, it is the product most prefer, and it is economically feasible on a large scale.

Many consumers seek out grassfed beef, believing that this is a shortcut around the evil feedlots. What they are buying is a bunch of wild cattle from Brazil that were chased into pens with helicopters then shipped to a large processing plant. 

These processing plants, are in short supply, most people will say that it is because of the high price of meeting the regulations that go along with operating a processing plant. That is not a wrong assessment, but in many cases localities have shut down processing facilities, preferring art centers and things like that instead of anything that looks like industry or commerce, again often a tax issue. There is a shortage of processing plants for small farmers, the ones that operate on a small scale, charge some pretty high fees to package USDA inspected cuts of meat, and they usually involve a long travel distance.

Often a small producer is going there with a small number of cattle. It is hard to produce a large number of animals that are ready on the same day, when you start with a small number of animals. These producers miss out on advantages brought by the economy of scale. This means they must price their product really high, compared to the conventional markets that do take advantage of the economy of scale. Because of the higher pricing, consumers that are convinced they need that product, will buy less of it. This means that unless a producer is fortunate to live near a large group of people, yet still have low enough property tax costs to operate, there is little chance to move enough product to make a living wage.

So you have a situation where many cattle farmers are tied to the commercial industry, and it's prices. You have other cattle producers that can't imagine what's wrong, because they are selling packaged beef for big bucks.

Animal rights organizations have little concern for animal welfare. This is evidenced by their corporate payrolls in relation to the animals that they actually help. They make a video, either by having a hidden camera in the hands of an operative that has infiltrated the farm, on that farm's worst day. Any farm will have a worst day, and despite your intentions, if you raise livestock, there will be five minutes that would become viral. In some cases, these videos and photo ops have been proven to be staged, but it doesn't matter the damage is done. They use this stuff to get donation money, that they can use to sue people and lobby governments, as well as pay their corporate heads handsomely. They use the narrative to splinter producers, make them fight each other, spreading the narrative of how much better their "way" is. Not knowing that they are eroding consumer confidence in everyones product. Sometimes they will even help push legislation.

Antibiotics in our meat, was an interesting catch phrase. Not really rooted in reality, but after much public outcry, there is a push from legislation to limit access to antibiotics. This means that producers will need a vet for access to antibiotics. Not a problem for large industrial complexes who have their own vet(s) on staff, but to a smaller producer, this is an extra vet bill. More economy of scale forcing out the little guy, and little net reduction in antibiotic use, not that there aren't already withdrawal regulations to keep it out of the feed supply.

I can imagine a video floating around on the internet. "Here at shady acres bovine retirement community, we care about elder care for cows." Next thing you know, anybody that does not provide a retirement plan for their cattle is a bad guy. The video won't show the ugly side of it. I have kept cows and retired them. Usually there was some vanity and selfishness on my part involved, and in almost all cases, in retrospect, it would have been more humane to have sent them to a more timely end, when the profits from them and the freeing up of resources they were using would have bettered the remaining herd.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

What interesting insight you have, Barnbilder. Thank you for that education. I need to chew on that for a little bit in order to come back with some thoughtful questions. Yes, 'chew' on that was some cow humor!!! 

I'm horrified about the helicopters in Brazil. I will make sure to spread the word so people I know make sure they buy local. I have learned there is a difference between grass fed and grass finished. And yes, grass finished takes more skill to learn how to make it taste as good, but I hear it's starting to be done. I've heard both things about feed lots, so I imagine it's based on which one. I hear some are muddy and miserable for the cows and I've heard cows love eating al the junk food they want.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Barnbuilder,
In order to help me better screen about issues I'm not aware of, like the brazil cows being rounded up by helicopters, I normally buy all my meat and dairy from Whole Foods. I know their screening system is certainly not perfect, but without knowing better, it's what I've done. Do you happen to know if they look out for those issues? I know in different parts of the country they carry different products in the attempt to be a 'little' more local (in MD and TX they carry Bell Evans chicken and in CA they have Mary's --they both gas their chickens which sounds good to me) but I don't know how good or not they actually are. I here they may be going to more centralized purchasing now which might undo some of the good they've been doing. I could also buy some from local farmers markets. When I asked the egg guy if his were pastured raised, while they were indeed organic, they weren't chickens with access to the outdoors. It's hard for the average person to know how to be the best consumer.

I do realize about the controversy regarding the undercover cameras at these places. And I understand why people don't want them there. I really do get it. But, if it were me, I would put up my own 24 hour live cameras and brag to the world about how humane minded my operation was. That way, if someone catches the bad 5 minutes, there is transparency that the other 23 hours and 55 minutes were ideal. As an outsider, I personally think having the industry lobby to make those recordings illegal only makes the good guys look guilty. Having transparency would knock out the big bad guys (well, many people don't care at all, but plenty do) and help the small person doing things in a nicer and more natural way. An outsider says, oh, if they are trying this hard to hide it from our view, then there must be something worth hiding. The only way, in my opinion, to show people your record, and that the bad 5 minutes was really just an anomaly, is to give them access to the whole enchilada. That is how I decided who to buy my eggs from.. they might not be the nicest, but they have a live camera I can access and I could see they were telling the truth. You want the bad guys to be exposed and put out of business because they are what hurts the reputation of the good guys. Personally, if there were no bad guys, I never would have become a vegetarian in the first place. I just didn't know how to find the good ones, so I found it easier just not to try.


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## farmerjan (Jan 9, 2017)

I would never want to eat any chicken that has been gassed. My goodness, how long would it take to die and in the meantime, that gas is being absorbed into the lungs and into the blood stream at an alarming rate as they try to live....think of how fast the o2 is absorbed into the blood stream from the lungs while normal breathing. A quick slice across the throat, upside down in a killing cone so they can't struggle, and fast bleed out is WAY MORE HUMANE than anything else. 

Your whole idea of a 24 video cam that shows 23 hours 55 min. of perfectly wonderful treatment and a 5 min of the bad day will never reach the masses with the GOOD stuff. The bad will ALWAYS be sensationalized because it is news worthy. There will always be the few that will believe the good but 98% will totally ignore the good for the smidgen of bad. It's not going to put the bad out of business and it will only hurt the good because everything will never be perfect and the ones that want the feel good stuff do not want to believe there really are bad times. 

For the antibiotics thing, barnbuilder also has hit it right. There are protocols and stiff repercussions for sending an animal to slaughter that has antibiotic residue. Most farmers do not use them indiscriminately like it is suggested. Not only are they expensive, most try to raise their animals in a healthy manner so they don't get sick and need any intervention. It is no different than a human with children. Most want their kids to be healthy. If they do get sick, you try a few different things and if it doesn't produce results, you call the drs. office. Would you withhold antibiotics from your child because it isn't healthy and natural ? At the possibility that they could get sicker or even die? 
The tests that they do on EVERY sample of milk from EVERY FARM that it is picked up from is able to detect miniscule amounts today. Farmers will often withhold a cow longer than the limits on the bottle to be VERY SURE they are not contaminating a tankerload of milk. If a farm does send milk from a treated animal, and it is detected, not only do they lose their milk but are responsible for the whole tankerload...about 50,000 lbs. That's no small change so they are very careful. Many will even test their cows before they put them back into the tank to be sure they do not have any trace of antibiotic residue.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Wow, I really appreciate you taking the time to address these things I've always wondered about. I think you know I'm not trying to stir anything up and am truly just trying to learn. I like all of you!

My understanding has always been that the overuse of antibiotics problem is only from the places that don't treat their animals well.. confined, too many, and stressed etc. But, as you just pointed out, the small farmer who is treating their animals well is getting caught in the middle because you would mainly just use them when needed, because as you point out, we all get sick at times. 

My personal beef (more cow puns!) is only with the places that don't let animals live in a way that gives them quality of life. To have a cage so small that the pig can't turn around, etc.. I mean, if they are being forced to sacrifice their lives, it's the very least we can do. And yes, I realize not everyone would be able to afford to eat meat every day, but that is a small price to pay. In the olden days, meat was a treat. If things were still that way, I assume the majority of people who are against farming would never have confused the good guys with the bad guys. Sorry if anyone here is one of those bad guys, but if you are, do better  But I assume they aren't on here!

Oh, your point on the cameras is good because most people wouldn't take the time to look for themselves, like I do. I guess it would be like the 6:00 news and only the sensational gets reported. Point well made!

I may need to re-research the gassing. You may know more I do about this or perhaps I didn't explain it well.. My understanding is that they are gassed in a way to knock them out, like how they would do it before surgery. And then, when they are out of it or asleep, they are then killed in order to avoid the stress of being put in the thingie to hold them upside down etc. If you happen to know, definitely let me know. I just like to do the best I can to be respectful of the animals.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I'll start with pigs locked in tiny cages. This has been one of the things used by animal rights organizations as propaganda against hog farmers.

A lot of hog farmers these days are in fact, small family farms. They have a small footprint, but they have thousands of hogs. They are contractors. They get feeder pigs, from other contractors that only raise from birth to a few weeks old, or in some cases they might raise their own on site. They put them in large grow houses, lots of stainless steel and concrete, easily cleaned surfaces, and they crank out pigs ready to eat. They get their feed from the company they are contracted with. 

Many times the company might front the money for these small family farmers to build the facilities on their property. Many times, these operations are located in close proximity to croplands, to keep feed transportation costs low. I don't know right off the top of my head, but let's just say it takes 5 pounds of corn to make a pound of pork. Corn is of course cheaper than pork. Makes no sense to pay to truck 5 truckloads of corn to New York to grow a truck load of hogs, when you can do it in Nebraska and just send a load of pork to New York instead. They have this thing figured out pretty well by now. They can produce pork very efficiently. 

You don't get efficient pork production by treating the animals poorly. Most of these barns have fans and misting units, if not full blown air conditioners. Pork production in today's competitive markets, which are influenced by countries that might not share our views on animal treatment or food safety, operates on a thin profit margin. Hog farmers are basically adding value to the feed they are feeding. So, for a family farm to make a living wage in their farming operation, with pigs, they either need to pay to build a facility large and modern enough, and negotiate with feed suppliers, raise their own breeding stock, and then have enough cash in a sock for the day that pork prices fall below operation costs, OR, they need to contract with a large company, and just get paid for labor. 

Most choose the latter. In some instances, people raise pigs on pasture, and overcome the extremely low profit margins by selling upscale cuts at farmers markets, and other niche markets. Very few in this group produce what could be called a living wage from pork production, and in those cases, they have the benefit of living close to a lot of customers, and a properly inspected processing facility, and in an area with low property taxes and lenient land use ordinances. In some instances, the large corporation has their own facility, and employees, but a lot of these hogs are produced by small family farmers, even though it doesn't look like a small family farm to someone that doesn't know any better.

So now that we've discussed the what and why, back to the tiny cages. Hogs have a shorter gestation than cows, and in most cases with their very obvious heats they are exposed to a boar, or to prevent injury (boars like it rough) artificially inseminated. The gestation is very predictable, given the observation of breeding and the inherent clock like gestation of pigs. It is the nature of swine, when close to farrowing (giving birth to pigs) to find a secluded place, and make a large nest to have her pigs. The bedding material would likely lead to unsanitary conditions in a commercial setting, providing seclusion adequate enough to suit every female hog in a facility that raised enough pigs to provide a living wage to those operating it would have quite a large footprint. The pastured pork producers will let them go make a nest, like nature intended. Sometimes nature can be quite cruel. Pigs get tangled in nesting materials, chill and die, get mashed by the sow, they might get eaten by predators, or eaten by the livestock guardian dogs that are supposed to keep the predators away. Others might succumb to the weather or die in any number of ways that nature can dish out. This is fine for the producers selling to the niche markets that pastured pork can fit into, they are charging high prices for their product, and most probably aren't depending on every single pig for their entire income. The commercial producers that operate on that thin profit margin try to make every birth count. Thus, what is known as a farrowing crate. This is a small enclosure that a sow is placed in for the short time she is in labor. It protects her from other hormonal sows, and protects the people attending her and her sisters' births from being injured by a hormonal sow. More importantly, it prevents the sow from mashing her pigs, or eating them, while providing a safe environment for every piglet to nurse. Employees are free to check each pig, and check the sows for mastitis, and other health issues. It is not a device to torture pigs, it is not anywhere near a long term situation, and in terms of a small footprint, in nature a sow enters a trance like state shortly after birth, and lays in one spot and nurses for up to 48 hours. In nature, nobody really cares if a weak pig gets shoved to the side and starves to death, but in a commercial setting somebody does care. What a waste of resources to plow all that land and plant all that grain if you are going to waste pigs that can be saved with human intervention? Would it be better to let the sows pick their own spot, and fight off anything that came near them? Sure, for that individual sow. What about the welfare of the sow whose ear she bit off? What about the welfare of all the piglets she mashes cause she is not the greatest mother? Some of the pig mashing comes from the way they have been bred, to efficiently turn grain to pork. If we used more athletic wild pigs, they would maybe be better mothers, but you would have employees eaten regularly, and their conversion to meet would require twice as many songbirds to be run through a combine to get the grain to feed them for the same pound of meat.

This is just an example of something that animal rights groups use to attack farmers. What people don't seem to realize is that they don't want anyone to own animals, eat them or use them in any way. It's farrowing crates today, but once they successfully outlaw a means to ensure pig survival, they will show some hidden footage indicating that the pigs are so stressed they bite each other, and then it will be one thing and then another. The end goal is that it will be too difficult to raise pigs for food. We can't raise enough pork to meet demands using mother nature's model. And we shouldn't, there would be too much suffering inflicted on pigs trying it. Roads paved with good intentions usually lead to bad places. If you want an omelette, you have to break some eggs. If you want to raise enough live pigs to meet contractual agreements, with as few sows as possible subjected to being raised to make babies, you should use some type of restraint so that you can observe farrowing while your sows drop into the hibernation like state after farrowing, in which they would not move out of a space much larger than their body for 48 hours anyway.


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## farmerjan (Jan 9, 2017)

Again, barnbilder has explained the whole farrowing crate pretty well. Although I am not in favor of confinement hog raising, nor of chickens or turkeys, there is a reason and a place for it. I had a sow that was a very good and careful mother. If she had 9 live pigs she raised 9. Had a daughter of hers that was the most god awful mother. Laid on pigs because she was not careful getting up and down, stepped on them, if they squealed she would jump up and whip around and has bitten pigs because she couldn't figure out what was the matter and would just go halfway nuts. Had big litters but was a failure as a mother. A farrowing crate would have taken care of it but I was not set up for it so she went to be sausage before she hurt any more pigs or me. Had another sow that would go after you every time she had pigs for no reason except she just turned mean. 2 litters was enough to convince me that my health and not getting torn apart was definitely more important and was glad to put her on the truck to go the slaughter. Because most farmers operate on such small margins, they do care about each and every animal in their care. It has become a thing that you have to find the niche market or get big to take advantage of the economy of scale.

The milk companies are even giving incentives to farms that are shipping half tankerloads of milk so they don't have to make as many stops; yet they are all crying "milk surplus". It is the way of the times to try to put the smaller farmer out of business. Then they can also control the supply of food and the prices that are paid. The small dairies are paying a disproportionate amount of money for hauling and since many are older, they are getting out. Where will the genetic diversity come from when these older farmers are gone. They are the source of more knowledge than most people realize. But, the younger generation sees that it is a losing deal unless they get bigger, or go to work as contract labor for the companies that own the animals and they get paid for their hard work, like the poultry and hog industries. 

There is so much more to just having a pretty farm and the scenic vistas, and all that in the whole make up of farms. And believe me, a small farmer is married to his farm because there aren't any "relief" farmer helpers that you can rely on. No take a vacation or go off for the day because the animals don't take care of themselves. So, the farms get bigger, the workers have set hours and there is someone to fill in if they have a day off or don't show up. You don't get sick days or stuff like that if you are a small farmer.

I don't know much about the gassing thing, I just cannot believe that there is no residual effect from the gassing to "put them to sleep" before cutting their throats. That is not "NATURAL" either. Don't most people have to go into recovery to overcome the effects of being put to sleep? So that is in their system. I can't imagine that there is much difference with what they are using on chickens. So what residue could be in their meat from the gas? 

The sensationalists with the animal rights groups WANT you to believe that antibiotics are in rampant use and are the only thing keeping animals alive in confinement situations. That's plain BULL S#@T. Even in the big feedlots, the animals are constantly monitored to make sure they are not getting sick. A sick animal does not gain weight or grow so causes a loss monetarily. Most have resident vets that are on call to make sure the health of that animal is kept as close to optimal so that it does eat and gain. Those animals have food and water at their beck and call, don't have to do much of anything to get it. It may not be what nature intended but there is none of the inherent dangers or difficulties associated with living that their ancestors faced. Not saying it is perfect. They are definitely no worse off than most people whose kids sit in front of a video game for hours at a time and don't get off their butt to do more than go to the bathroom or the fridge for something else to eat that they have done nothing to help their family provide for them. And animals in general can't reason it out so they are often content to have it provided for them.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I believe the gas they use is CO2. They also use foam, like fire retardant. Some scientists have measured hormones in meat, and come to the conclusion that CO2 is less stressful than exsanguination. I have used CO2 chambers, in lines of work outside of farming. My observation has been that there is an equal amount of thrashing and banging, as the animals panic from running out of oxygen, versus the involuntary spasms of an animal that experienced an instant blood pressure drop from having it's throat cut. The exsanguinated animals immediately lose blink response. You would probably need a lab with just the perfect conditions to pull it off. Maybe some latent animal rights leanings to help you extrapolate your data in a way that makes the method people have been using it for thousands of years look bad would be handy, too.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Hello Cow Friends! Hey Ronney, where are you???!!! I wanted to share the result of the board meeting because you were so generous with your time and advice. 

Well, it didn’t go my way, but que sera sera  
They were very gracious to let me attend their meeting and share a little of what I learned, in addition to considering our request to explore the issue further to figure out why there were discrepancies between their ideas and what I learned from you and everyone else, and to see if any other ideas were as viable or even better than their current plan. I'm not quite sure why they voted against it because it seemed like a no lose situation for them because they would come out better regardless of the outcome. If we could have figured out a better out of the box idea, then they would have had people spending their time and money on their behalf and they would get the glory for having a more interesting, inclusive and cutting edge program. If we couldn’t figure out a better idea, at that point, they’d have the community’s blessing and they would come away looking more open minded and considerate of the residents (even though I’m fairly new here, from what everyone says, that's some PR they could definitely use). At least we know the cow expert working here will treat the cows well while they are on our property (but of course those were never the cows we were worried about anyway).

Regardless of how it went, I’m very grateful to all of you who participated because you taught me so very much, and your ‘friendship’ in wanting to help is forever appreciated. 

If you don’t mind, I’ll continue to ask some of the questions we’ve touched on recently because the last few days have been very enlightening for me. I really think it’s great that even you can disagree on methods but still be 'friends' and exchange ideas. I was brought in an environment where people were encouraged to disagree and it's how you grow your mind. It seems as I get older, that most people only want to be around like minded people. To me, that is a big yawn  I can talk to myself in the mirror if I want to hear my own thoughts!!! THANKS AGAIN for being so GREAT!!!


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Farmerjan and Barnbilder,
This is the article I read in 2010 about gassing..
"Two premium chicken producers, Bell & Evans in Pennsylvania and Mary’s Chickens in California, are preparing to switch to a system of killing their birds that they consider more humane. The new system uses carbon dioxide gas to gently render the birds unconscious before they are hung by their feet to have their throats slit, sparing them the potential suffering associated with conventional slaughter methods.

“When you grab a chicken, turn it upside down and put it on the line, it’s stress, stress, stress,” said Scott Sechler, the owner of Bell & Evans. “Our system is designed so that we put them to sleep without stress and we kill them without stress.”"

From something I read, I assumed they are brought to the room in their cages and gassed, and after that, they are taken out and hung by their feet upside down. From what I can imagine, that seems like the less stressful way to go then to see what is happening. I imagine they are being pulled out of their cages in front of each other and hung upside down and not even sure how immediate slitting the throat happens. So, farmerjan, I agree that the slitting of the throat is really fast, but I'm thinking the gassing helps them avoid the stress of what happens BEFORE that. On a small farm, people go pick a chicken and slit it's throat and that probably is pretty quick and less stressful than what happens at the big slaughter houses. This was 2010 and maybe thing are different now. My impression was that they weren't really even running out of breath, but Barnbilder, it seems that you are a wealth of knowledge on this subject, so it sounds like you've witnessed this before and that's not the case.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

From what I have seen, with municipal animal control applications, if you put something in a compartment with co2 instead of oxygen, a significant portion freak the heck out. Some of them seem to drift off to sleep, some do not. It also takes a very long time, especially with anything semi-aquatic, you better give a muskrat a good 45 minutes. 

The whole concept of chickens witnessing other chickens being hung up and killed, and that causing stress is pretty faulty. I never used a cone, just a feed sack with the corner cut out, or a piece of twine. I have had cages of chickens nearby when processing, any stress they were exhibiting was as likely to come from the fact that they were restrained and they really wanted to get out and peck that chicken that was flapping for good measure. I have seen this behavior with chickens that were free at the time. 

"Oh look, it's george, george is my buddy, uh oh, looks like george has something wrong with him, let's eat george"- this is the true nature of chickens, not some Disney fantasy. They will drink each other's blood like it was a cold soda. Some of them fight a little when you pick them up, but when suspended, the blood rushes to their head and they hang there confused for a little bit. Any animal that is not used to restraint is going to resist restraint. It's instinct, a last ditch effort to make a predator drop them. If they kick and squawk and flap their wings and you drop them, they will go find the feeder and start eating. They will act the same if you are grabbing them to kill them, or to grabbing them to help them.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Hi batx, I haven't actually been anywhere (unfortunately), just had a couple of weeks of everything going pear shaped, having dinner and dropping into bed. I hate winter!

I suppose it was really no surprise that the board voted you down but what the hell. You tried, you've made some friends and learnt a lot. And who knows, perhaps one day you will move on and do it your way.

You had some excellent answers from Barnbuilder (who always speaks with common sense) and Farmerjan and had I been around I would have agreed with most of what they said with exception to the demise of chickens - don't know anything about that.

Keep in touch and continue to ask questions.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

I've been reading this thread because I think it's been super interesting. I don't know much about cows, to be honest, but I know a good bit about the topic at hand.
I think the biggest takeaway here is that you're learning a lot about how the farming industry and animal rights vs welfare is a really big, complicated, nuanced issue. The truth is, our farming system is pretty bizzare and doesn't operate like other economic systems. You have tax subsidies, global markets, crazy activists, environmental concerns, nature vs nurture, natural vs humane, all contributing to a really complex systems that make things difficult to navigate clearly. Once you dive in, there's no coming back out. You'll never look at food or animal rights activists the same again.

I do think there's a big gap between animal rights and animal welfare. And I think the moment you started mentioning Temple Grandin a lot of folks started rolling their eyes. Unfortunately, she's a huge contributor to both animal welfare and animal rights and they're very different topics that get blurred together, on purpose. 

Animal rights activists have a goal. They have stated it MANY times. If you do some research you'll find out that groups like Animal Liberation Front, PETA, HSUS etc. all have leaders whose stated mission is the end of animal ownership (even pets). They believe in intrinsic rights of animals, to live without human intervention, etc. They dress this up as animal WELFARE, which is care of animals needs, reducing stress and pain. They deliberately blur the lines, because they could never get support for something as crazy as "all humans should be vegans and animals should be superior to humans". When push comes to shove _that line of thinking is absolutely crazy_ and they _know it too_. So they cover it up. They bury it deep, behind things more socially acceptable things like anti-fur campaigns and farm cage sizes. But the end goal is still there. No animals for anyone EVER.

Animal welfare _requires death and human intervention both together_. Think about how cruel it would be to take your dog and toss it out in the woods and tell it to live free! Or how horrible it is when some people have old, sick, dying pets who are clearly suffering and need to be put down but they don't do it. These are two obvious situations that require human intervention and death to be humane. It would be terrible to be those people. Animal welfare addresses those facts. It addresses them with confinement and care and euthanasia. The same is very much true in farming.

There's an inbetween, between roaming free (which leads to big losses and is inhumane, like barnbildr says, but is what animal rights people want) and battery cages. A lot of small farmers are learning and using alternatives. Like the farrowing crates crates for pigs. I'm not a huge fan of those. The best small diversified farms these days use what's known as a "creep" where there's a barrier between the mom and the piglets that the piglets can get through but mom can't. The piglets get heat and soft bedding on their side, but not on moms side, so they are compelled to stay on their own side when not invited to go eat. Still, they can move back and forth and interact with mom pig if they feel safe and the creep can easily be closed off so that the farmers can get at the piglets without having to face down an angry sow. Some places with gestation and farrowing crates have the kind that the pigs can back out of, with a hallway that leads to a small field, but secures behind them so they can be safe in their crates even with other, aggressive pig moms around. They can move freely and socialize, but often choose to be in their own secure crates. Those are pretty cool too. I like 'em. I support good animal welfare.
But this comes at a cost. There'll still be small losses even with the best humane system and that raises prices. That might seem like it's worth it (and I agree) but there's still things to be considered. Fewer people will eat the meat because it costs more, that will put some farms out of business. World markets with different standards will drive prices haywire. Do we close our borders to meat imports? Does that mean we also close off meat exports? How does that effect our international trade deals for things like electronics and cars? We export a lot of food to pay for importing things like Toyotas and blu-ray players. If prices go up, will that worsen food deserts in inner cities? Will poor people start to not be able to afford calorie-rich foods for their children? Corn and soy makes up the majority of animal feeds (especially finishing feeds). Corn and soy is cheap from govt. subsidies (your tax dollars pay for farms to produce corn and wheat in large acreage) which is why they started being fed to animals. What happens to the corn? Does it get get poured into expensive ethanol production? Do the corn markets crash, forcing more (especially small) corn farmers out of business? We could restructure farm subsidies so there's less corn on the markets and pay those farmers to produce other plants... But then feed prices go up for meat products which means fewer people eating meat, and even more lower class America can't afford to put meat on the tables.... It's SO complicated. I haven't even covered how automation, general economic state, tax law, societal standards, or environmentalism etc. could factor into this. (And this is all hypothetical anyhow! Who knows if it would actually happen that way in practice.)

There's no easy solution, though I think we need to keep working towards one. But it requires a really deep understanding of a massively complicated global system, and it starts with the knowledge that just because an animal is living naturally doesn't mean that it's living the best way it could. The opposite is also true, an animal in severe confinement is probably not living the best either. But changes take time and careful adjustments on both local and global levels as well as public perception and research. It's a lot of little pieces. But there's lots to learn about. Please never stop learning about both sides of it. It matters. Food is our future. I wish more people were educated on it.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

I been reading this thread also and find your situation interesting. Two questions though I might of missed this...
Why does it have to be cattle and what do you do for the winter? Not that it seems to matter anymore as it seems that board is going to do what ever. Just curious.

Total thread drift...
As for chickens. Turning them upside down and putting them into a tight space seems to calm them down. We just chop off the whole head then they start bouncing around. Our chickens are referred to as ground vultures/clean up crew. Have to keep our laying hens locked up on butchering day or they are under foot eating the blood/guts/feathers from the other chickens. Chickens are very rough, we had to learn the hard way, don't put hens and chicks that are not theirs together(the hens pecked the chicks eyes out).

Our rule here is happy animals are tasty animals.


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## Pyrpup2016 (Sep 11, 2016)

Bats, I found a Facebook page that you might really enjoy - _UCCE Foothill Sustainable Ranching_ - Looks like some good info for you and those running your ranch.! Good luck.


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## batx (May 20, 2017)

Oh Wow, after talking about you tonight, I just came on here to revisit all of your great advice and I see there have been more replies!!! The system hasn't sent me an email informing me. 

I'm going to bed but I'll hop back on here in the next day or two to chat. THX


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