# Dyer's Gardens?



## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

I am thinking off adding to my herbal/dyers garden. So far I have Dyers Chamomile and Madder. What would you get that likes full sun?


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## lambs.are.cute (Aug 15, 2010)

Indigo. I tried growing it but didn't think to fence my hens out.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Coreopsis! An easy to grow self-seeding annual. 
so pretty.


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## lexierowsell (Dec 10, 2013)

Me too, me too!! 

We just phased out commercial/wholesale organic herbs and I now have most of my formal herb garden available for a dyer's garden (and 3/4 acre for cotton and flax!!). 

I have false indigo planted, and have been reading about morning wood making a blue dye as well. 

Anyone have suggestions for zone 8a/b for other colors?


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## Jacki (May 13, 2002)

Oregon grape, good yellows, the berries can make purple tones, but don't know how permanent. It is also a good medicinal plant, and the "grapes" make a tart substitute for lemon.

Jacki


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

There are several good books about growing a dyers garden. Make sure you check to make sure the plants aren't banned in your area, many are considered noxious weeds.


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## Skandi (Oct 21, 2014)

We've grown Woad before, that loved full sun in the South of England.


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## lambs.are.cute (Aug 15, 2010)

Just check woad. It's a close cousin to canola and will mix with canola. Since ways has smaller seeds with less oil this is a problem for commercial growers. Woad produces a lot of pollen and this even one plant could cause a lot of economic damage. This is why it is illegal for us to grow it in Washington. 

Also several things are considered invasive species here and instead of planting them I went and talked to the guy responsible with our state parks here and after he got over his shock that anybody was volunterring to work he was more than willing to let me have all I wanted. And invited me to come back.


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## lexierowsell (Dec 10, 2013)

I just ordered a trio of dyers books. Will post some when they arrive!!


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## wogglebug (May 22, 2004)

http://laundry.about.com/od/NaturalFabricDyes/a/How-To-Dye-Fabric-With-Natural-Dyes.htm

Barberry
Brown onion (for onion skin (mustard-yellow))
Juicy green grass or pasture (soft brown)
Mulberry
For warm climates, bouganvillea
Black walnut
Wild walnut
Maple
Spinach

The mordant can change the colour of the base dye - tin, copper, iron, alum, chrome.

Green for blue over-dyed with yellow, or vise versa
Purple for blue over-dyed with red, or vise versa

And there are, of course, naturally-coloured fibres. 
Silk - white, golden-yellow, brown.
Wool (white, black, brown, grey). Urine stain is yellow-gold.
Cotton (white, soft or pastel green, rose, lilac, blue, gold, orange).
Linen (I forget, but there are colours; sort of like cotton).
LLama, camel - brown. Alpaca - brown, light brown, white.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

The invasive ones can be planted in containers.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Marchwind said:


> The invasive ones can be planted in containers.


If they are invading via seeds blowing in the wind, they will still be invasive, like dandelions. As stated with the woad, the woad can cross with canola. You&#8217;d have to know more about each plant.


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## SvenskaFlicka (Nov 2, 2011)

I'm going to be planting my Woad and Madder in containers in town.


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

Wow you all have such amazing info to share, thanks! I'm glad to see everyone's enthusiam as I share it. So fare in my herb garden I have madder, roman and dyers chamomile, self heal, lemon balm, lovage, stevia, lavender and couple I will need to post pis of in the spring, I forgot what they are. In the shade I have a small patch of sweet violets, comprey, lady's mantel and horseradish. I'm trying to grow herbs that I can use as dye and medicine. I was looking into indigo as I have yellow already. I didn't know woad was invasive. I was going to get both weld and woad if I could find them. Also can anyone explain how to use mordants?


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Be extremely careful when using the metal mordants. You'll want to use a respirator for chrome, tin, iron, copper & aluminum.

You can get away with using a dedicated cast iron pot or a copper pot.

Mix up your water & mordant, immerse your fiber or yarn & let sit in pot.


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## Skandi (Oct 21, 2014)

lambs.are.cute said:


> Just check woad. It's a close cousin to canola and will mix with canola. Since ways has smaller seeds with less oil this is a problem for commercial growers. Woad produces a lot of pollen and this even one plant could cause a lot of economic damage. This is why it is illegal for us to grow it in Washington.


Never heard that before, in England canola (rape) is a very VERY common crop, and woad is a common garden plant. (after looking around a bit, I see we grow woad as a field crop as well!) SO I doubt it is due to cross polination they are worried however it is listed as 


> In certain locations, the plant is classified as a non-native and invasive weed. It is listed as a noxious weed by the agriculture departments of several states in the western United States, Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah, Washington, and Wyoming.[22][23] In Montana, it has been the target of an extensive, and largely successful, eradication attempt.[24]


(wikipedia)

Interestingly it is apparently under investigation for anti cancer properties. But at the moment I guess if you want it you'll just have to import it


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Maura, yes, exactly!

Right on MLF!

The cynical side of me thinks that maybe they want it irradicate it so the pharmaceutical companies can patent it for their own uses :facepalm:


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## SvenskaFlicka (Nov 2, 2011)

I have woad seeds. It is not listed as a noxious weed in Nebraska, so I can plant as I like!

I'll still plant it in a container though.


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## lambs.are.cute (Aug 15, 2010)

Sorry I was just repeating what the ag agent told me when I went to ask why we couldn't have it here. There is very little concern that it will go wild here because it is a desert here. We don't want something we stop watering. Tada bare ground. It might get invasive in my garden because it is designed to hold water. I would grow inside since it is a happy seed spreader.


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

So with the mordant I use actual tin like a can? I'm having a hard time figuring out how this works. 

Sven are you willing to share some woad seeds? 

I always buy my plants from Horizon Herbs but they don't have the plants I want. Can anyone recommend another source for herb plants? TYIA!


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## wogglebug (May 22, 2004)

A mordant is a chemical that will set the dye into the fabric, so that it will be colour-fast and not just wash out afterwards. All mordants are soluble, otherwise they couldn't do their job. They react with the dyestuff to create and precipitate insoluble colours. A simple sample is salt - not a very effective one, but it does work. Other common possibilities are ferrous sulphate, copper sulphate. Most mordants are simple and safe, provided you don't eat them; you wear rubber gloves, and provided you wash the dyed, dried fabric before you use it. I'd make REAL sure I knew what I was doing with chromium, though; and be moderately careful with tin. However, a breathing mask would be totally irrationally ignorant over-the-top paranoia.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Dreamy, mordants are in powdered form.


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

MullersLaneFarm said:


> Dreamy, mordants are in powdered form.


Thank you both. I wasn't sure about that part.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

I suppose you could cut it back or just cut the flowers off so it never goes to seed too.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

wogglebug said:


> However, a breathing mask would be totally irrationally ignorant over-the-top paranoia.



Breathing finely powdered heavy metals is _not safe_. Copper, Tin & Chrome are toxic.

If *you *feel comfortable using these mordants without protecting *yourself*, then feel free to do so. 

But to say that anyone wanting to use the protection suggested is irrationally, ignorant, or over the top paranoid is, in my opinion, a bit arrogant and definitely not safety conscience.

Safe mordants include alum, cream of tartar, vinegar & tannic acid.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

I totally concur and confir with MLF, it is NOT being paranoid to wear a mask when mixing dye stuffs and mordants. I can assure you that all the professionals DO wear masks. It is important to state what is the safest way to use a toxic substance even if that is not how you do it.

Different mordants will also give you different effects with each dye. For example a copper might give you a bright green with a particular dye stuff and a different mordant might give you a pink with that same dye stuff.


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

I ended up getting Motherwort which produces a dark green dye from what I've read. I got it from Horizon Herbs. I also got St. John's Chamomile which I've never heard of.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/1957/

There's always good sources and feedback here. Impeccable data.

Fine powders can be like radiation - we just can't perceive the particles that we ingest from the air. It's never good.


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## MamaRed (Dec 18, 2013)

I just attended a natural dyeing class and it was so interesting! We got to play with different dyes and fibers. Just adding vinegar or baking soda to a dye will change the color. The only mordant we used was alum. I didn't have a lot here to work with, but I just dyed some alpaca with turmeric. I soaked the alpaca in vinegar first because I didn't have alum. It turned the most beautiful, glowy yellow. I used it to felt a bar of soap. I figure (besides possibly turning my skin yellow), if the color washes out it's not too big a deal. Keep us posted on what you're able to do.


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## Wind in Her Hair (Jul 18, 2002)

Tansy is a favorite wild roadside flower in these parts and it gets a lot of mileage as a natural dye. I bet you could grow that easily. 

Here are a few photos of some other natural dyeing my friend and I did for a summer festival.


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

Thanks MamaRed, I would love to go to a class like that. 

WIHH thanks for posting the pics, I love all the colors. I love color in my house every room is painted a different color most of them bright.

I also bought some sweet violets as I can't wait to try to make jelly. I got a few others to plant in the spring. I didn't think to get some Tansy. I think I can buy seeds locally in the spring though.


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## Wind in Her Hair (Jul 18, 2002)

Woodpecker, we have a mushroom in these parts called "Lobster Mushroom" or Hypomyces lactifluorum - that is supposed to give you an amazing fuschia!

I am going to try it myself this spring/summer when the mushrooms come out!


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## lexierowsell (Dec 10, 2013)

Think you can fly here with that WIHH? I'd love some of that color!!


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## hotzcatz (Oct 16, 2007)

lichens are supposed to give that fuchsia color, too. I think they have to soak in ammonia for several months first, though, before they can be used.

Around here indigo is a common roadside weed and farmer/ranchers will let you have all you want out of their pastures. It doesn't need a mordant, either, so it's easy to use.


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## SvenskaFlicka (Nov 2, 2011)

Last time I was in the north woods I collected some lichen to try soaking in ammonia to get that purple. Only some lichens have orchil, the purple color, in them though. Some lichens just give you vivid lime greens.


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## Wind in Her Hair (Jul 18, 2002)

I collected a bunch of the lobster mushrooms last year, skinned them and froze them and have to my friend. I don't know if she used them or not - will have to ask her! There are apparently a whole bunch of mushrooms you can dye with.

http://mushroom-collecting.com/mushroomdyeing.html


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## lexierowsell (Dec 10, 2013)

Not many mushrooms in my part of Texas...


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

I wonder if you can dry the mushrooms for shipping an then reconstitute them?


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## Wind in Her Hair (Jul 18, 2002)

good question, Marchwind!


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## Osiris (Jun 9, 2010)

Found an interesting book on Navajo native dyes. Free. 
https://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/weaving/monographs/bys_dyes.pdf


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## Wind in Her Hair (Jul 18, 2002)

I didn't mean to suggest that you grow mushrooms in your Dyer's Garden - :teehee: just wanted to add that sometimes the best dyes are in the darndest places.


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

Thanks for that link WIHH and info! I found Dye Maker's Polyporus near church last year. No one could tell me what it was. In the spring I will go gather some. My Motherwort is back ordered, so is my chamomile. What other dyes can you use? I have comfrey and horseradish but am not sure if they will produce a dye.


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## Jacki (May 13, 2002)

Black beans make a nice blue, and I have gotten a nice greeny blue grey from copper and ammonia.

Jacki


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

I know you an freeze flower heads for dying until you have enough to dye with. But they sell dry dye stuffs do maybe you can't dry them too. I suppose you can look around the Internet to see if anyone sells dry mushrooms for dying with.


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

You all just reminded me that I do have nettles I could use. I'm bummed my Motherwort is back ordered.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

Dharma Trading Company has been the best place for me to learn about dyes & techniques, here's a link to their mordants page\
http://www.dharmatrading.com/chemicals/mordants-color-changers-and-other-assists.html?lnav=dyes.html


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

Thanks for the link, I see that they have some natural dyes also.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I have alot of info on my pinterest link.
https://www.pinterest.com/5element1667/spinning-wheels-fiberknittingweavingsewing/


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## lexierowsell (Dec 10, 2013)

We are planning now! Ordering this week, planting in the next couple!!


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

lexierowsell said:


> View attachment 44426
> 
> 
> We are planning now! Ordering this week, planting in the next couple!!


So cool Lexi! What are you planting and Where are you getting your seeds/ plants? Thanks for showing us what books you got. I think I am going to order a couple from Amazon myself now.

I want to add rhubarb to my garden this year. Horizon Herbs sent me a package today. I am hoping those are my dyer's seeds and not plants. I really can't wait for spring.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

Got Rita Buchanan's A Dyer's Garden from the public library and it's great!

Chris McLaughlin's A Garden to Dye For is on order for next up - can't wait.


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## lexierowsell (Dec 10, 2013)

Those are both fantastic. My very favorite is "A Dyer's Garden" and a very close second is called "Wild Color" by Jenny Dean.


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

I got my dyer's seeds, 7 packets worth! You can see which ones here https://www.horizonherbs.com/product.asp?specific=2560. Thanks for the book suggestions. If I was judging a book by its cover I think I would have to go with A Garden To Dye For. What a pretty cover!


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

Woodpecker said:


> I ended up getting Motherwort which produces a dark green dye from what I've read. I got it from Horizon Herbs. I also got St. John's Chamomile which I've never heard of.


Ok.. on the Motherwort.
You are going to want to plant that along the back of the bed.
Or, even better, in a corner that you don't want to mow.
It gets HUGE! Tall! Spreads like wildfire.
It terribly unattractive. Terribly so.
And it is pointy when the tips begin to dry.

My dear friend had it.
So I got some.
Then we spent 2 or more years complaining horribly about it.
Then I went over to her house and she had gotten rid of it all.
Her front yard looked like a different place.

I have yet to move mine.
I WILL. I WILL move it this spring.
(I said that last year, but I really mean it this time)
To a far edge of the field.

But bees go crazy for it!
They love it and that's good.

Oh.. and I will send you plantlets come spring if you want. 
Goodness knows I will have PLENTY!


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

Wow, thanks for the warning chickenista! I'll still take you up on your offer for plantlets though. I'm trying to think of where I should plant it. Thanks!


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

How about planting it in containers. Collect your own seeds and plant it new each spring if it dies out over the winter.


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

Marchwind said:


> I know you an freeze flower heads for dying until you have enough to dye with. But they sell dry dye stuffs do maybe you can't dry them too. I suppose you can look around the Internet to see if anyone sells dry mushrooms for dying with.


I was saving some dyers chamomile but when I unplugged the frig they got moldy and went into the compost pile. I plan to start again this spring.


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## lexierowsell (Dec 10, 2013)

I'm planning a perennial only dye garden, unless it's a multi-use annual. I'll post my list here when it's ready!!


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

I'm trying to do a perineal dye/ medicinal herb garden. I have more medicinal plants than dye plants but that should change once I plant my seeds.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

lexierowsell said:


> I'm planning a perennial only dye garden, unless it's a multi-use annual. I'll post my list here when it's ready!!


That's what I have. Some of the annuals, tho ,you only need to plant once. They self seed very well.


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

7thswan said:


> That's what I have. Some of the annuals, tho ,you only need to plant once. They self seed very well.


Can you name some off the top of your head? I'm still learning everyday.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

Noodling over Lexi's recommended books against the 1960's - 1970's stuff, the big difference I see is dried -vs- fresh. Rita Buchanan talks about the better results with fresh, as well as how high temperatures can lessen intensity. All against stewing pots of hay.

And indigo! That was pretty much passed over with a whiff to the terrible rotting process used in the old days - no one dreamed of doing that. Now it looks like you can not only go blue, but grow your own. Woad...

About mordants - I haven't seen anything that didn't work well or best with alum - a much better thing to work with than chrome. It's what the First People in America used too.


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

RedDirt Cowgirl said:


> Noodling over Lexi's recommended books against the 1960's - 1970's stuff, the big difference I see is dried -vs- fresh. Rita Buchanan talks about the better results with fresh, as well as how high temperatures can lessen intensity. All against stewing pots of hay.
> 
> And indigo! That was pretty much passed over with a whiff to the terrible rotting process used in the old days - no one dreamed of doing that. Now it looks like you can not only go blue, but grow your own. Woad...
> 
> About mordants - I haven't seen anything that didn't work well or best with alum - a much better thing to work with than chrome. It's what the First People in America used too.


Thanks for the input. I am still deciding on the best dyers book for me. I will be planting many new things this spring.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Personally I think anything that Rita says and does is golden. She know if what she speaks.


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

Marchwind said:


> Personally I think anything that Rita says and does is golden. She know if what she speaks.


Thanks Marchie I will take your word for it.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

Woodpecker said:


> Wow, thanks for the warning chickenista! I'll still take you up on your offer for plantlets though. I'm trying to think of where I should plant it. Thanks!


So... I am guessing that you aren't ready for Motherwort yet.
I am guessing still too much snow. :bored:
Well, when you are, they are ready for you.
I was cleaning out the herb beds today and thinking of you.

And if anyone else wants some, don't be shy.
No. I am trying to rid my property of it. Why do you ask?


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

chickenista said:


> So... I am guessing that you aren't ready for Motherwort yet.
> I am guessing still too much snow. :bored:
> Well, when you are, they are ready for you.
> I was cleaning out the herb beds today and thinking of you.
> ...


It's 50o here today if this keeps up I should be ready soon. I have been thinking of you also as I am deciding where to plant it. Do you have any other obnoxious weeds, I mean herbs? :gaptooth:


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

Finally got this one and it's - well - all for fun, overpadded and lots of fugitive colors.

Rita Buchanan's is the perfect pocket sized handbook for gardeners and dyers both, but I found another reprint by Dover Natural Dyes and Home Dying that a great read for history of dyes. Reminded me of Phillip Ball's Bright Earth, all about pigments and painting.

So I wouldn't waste my money on A Garden to Dye For, it's more like a magazine article in value.

This has been an interesting thread that has all my gardening friends talking dye plants. So fun!


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

RedDirt Cowgirl said:


> Finally got this one and it's - well - all for fun, overpadded and lots of fugitive colors.
> 
> Rita Buchanan's is the perfect pocket sized handbook for gardeners and dyers both, but I found another reprint by Dover Natural Dyes and Home Dying that a great read for history of dyes. Reminded me of Phillip Ball's Bright Earth, all about pigments and painting.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip! I won't waste my hard earned money on A Garden To Dye for. My herb garden is finally uncovered but we are expecting snow tomorrow. So far I can see my chamomiles growing.


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## Woodpecker (Mar 8, 2007)

chickenista said:


> So... I am guessing that you aren't ready for Motherwort yet.
> I am guessing still too much snow. :bored:
> Well, when you are, they are ready for you.
> I was cleaning out the herb beds today and thinking of you.
> ...


I need to weather one last storm before I can give the Motherwort a new home. I'm looking forward to some!


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

And it is looking forward to you and a new home as well.


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