# Basic question about choosing "hay"



## KIT.S (Oct 8, 2008)

So, I'm new to sheep, and I've never had to supply food-hay for an animal. I'm confused about all the types I see available. I know people have their own names for the stuff, but I need to know how to choose, without asking the seller "Would you feed this to a sheep?" and hope they answer me honestly, or that they know what sheep eat.

I see oat hay, orchard hay, alfalfa mix, valley grass hay, fescue hay, horse hay, cow hay, "good" hay, green hay, "nice soft ryegrass hay with some timothy & oats" that they say is "filler hay." See why I'm confused? 

So, what do I look for? I need to buy now, while it's not so expensive!

Thanks!
Kit
Oregon


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

"Cow hay" and "filler hay" are lower quality. Cows can and will eat most anything.

"Horse hay" is supposedly higher quality.

The other different names are the type of grass/grain in the hay.

Alfalfa is much higher in nutrients than most "grass" hays, and usually costs more.

[ame]http://www.google.com/search?complete=1&hl=en&safe=off&ie=UTF-8&ei=A8yvSsrbDpS3lAfvo93WBg&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=1&q=how+to+choose+good+hay&spell=1[/ame]


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I've never fed oat hay successfully. They'll pick off the oats and chew a little bit but its mostly watsed IMO. We feed a mix grass legume (alfalfa or clover or trefoil etc) ........ cattle hay is non-descriptive but generally means not horse hay or dairy hay. It could be OK but likely has been rained on or was harvested too mature. It could be fine, or not. Dairy hay is (around here) 2nd or 3rd cut pure afalfa. Good for making milk. Too hot for general feeding but good stuff for sheep during lactation too. Horse hay is just grassy hay with no rain. Unless you ask the next horse person then its 2nd cut alfalfa. Good luck getting a straight answer on that one.

If its any comfort I have no idea what half the hay you're looking at is either.


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## eieiomom (Jun 22, 2005)

I would stay away from oat hay, unless you have no choice.
It can test high in nitrates especially during drought conditions, so it would be a good idea to have it tested before purchasing it.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

hey everyone. I have raised sheep most of my life and have never bought any hay for them as we raise our own. Never ask a hay seller what kind of hay a sheep eats because most often than not it will be what he or she is selling . My sheep get mostly second or third cutting brome grass with a little alfalfa in it. but if they are nursing lambs more alfalfa is ok. people try to tell you you need alfalfa hay to feed anything but that is nottttt true. Alfalfa hay was started as a source of high protien for animals that needed it, Dairy cows mostly, my father who is 87 says they never had much for alfalfa when he was a young man . clover was the main stay back then . I still have alot of clover. bugs don`t bother clover as much as alfalfa. I love my brome hay about this time of year I call it my horse candy. Thanks Marc


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## LibertyWool (Oct 23, 2008)

You really need to go and look at the hay. Just because it is xyz hay doesn't mean that it is going to be good hay. When I look at hay, I want it to smell good and not be dusty or moldy (cut a bale open and look at it). I would also like to see a nice green color. But color is not always a good indication of nutritional value. So without testing you can't really know.

My sheep prefer finer hay vs coarser hay. Another thing to think about is VM (vegetable matter) contamination in the fleeces from feeding. Something like nice second/third cut orchard grass would be nice to help try and keep the fleeces clean.


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## KIT.S (Oct 8, 2008)

After watching all summer, I don't see second cut hay here. I know much of the ground is for grass seed, and I know the difference between that and eating-hay, but even on the hay fields, no one irrigated and cut a second crop. I was surprised - I thought second-cutting was normal.

We just moved out into the country, and although I've raised various animals before, these are our first sheep in Oregon. I had goats in Alaska, but that's a whole different land.

Also, many people mention getting feeds "tested." What kind of business does that? Where do you take things to be tested? Does it take long? Is it fast enough that I can buy one bale, take it there, get the results, and get back in time to buy more hay from the same person or field, so the testing is accurate?

I'm mainly after meat and 3 of our sheep are hair sheep, but it would be nice to be able to use the fleece if we can. Since they forage among the blackberries, they get very strange things in their fleece and I have not thought about coating them. 

Springvalley, I've heard of brome grass, but that's not one of the advertised (Craigslist) hays right now. Alfalfa is mostly shipped from Eastern Oregon in our area, and is basically more expensive. I'm looking to get local hay with the proper nutrients for maintenance - basically without knowing what I'm doing!
Kit


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## LibertyWool (Oct 23, 2008)

Some larger hay producers will provide you with the test results. I've never bothered with having it tested. Your county extension officer should be able to help you get it tested.

Basically testing will let you know if and how much you would need to supplement. So unless you are going to go to several places and test them all and then figure out which hay is most cost effective, you might skip that. Also, if you get it tested, you will need to understand enough about sheep nutrition to interpret the results. 

If you do end up getting some poor hay, they will eat more of it and/or loose weight. You can always just supplement with grain, if they hay is not providing enough nutrients. So it is not the end of the world, it may just cost you more (as most lessons in life do).

Also, depending on what you are asking of your sheep, their nutritional needs will be different. A bred ewe needs a lot more nutrients for the last 5-6 weeks of gestation and through lactation than a weather. I ask a lot of my sheep and we have cold winters, but I have worked out a feeding program that works for me in my climate for my sheep. It is a process of trial and error. And of paying attention to how the sheep are doing. What is the feed like? Are they cleaning everything up or is there a lot of waste? Are they keeping their weight on? Are they acting like they are starving all the time, or just when you are late with the grain bucket(s).

The one advice I would give, is always buy more than you think you will need. I feed hay for over 200 days a year and last year I had to buy 24 bales (I used over 1000). So that was really good.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

I'm new too - this will be our third winter with sheep and goats - and hay can be quite a lot to think about and source! To help me learn I've been getting every alfalfa purchase tested so I can see how what goes in (hay) affects my animals. I talk with local sheep and goat owners and learn what they do. Talk to the local feed companies/feed mills to see how they respond to local hay in terms of what needs to be supplemented (selenium, for example). And try my best to find some decent hay! I did not test the brome hay because it just smelled and looked so incredibly superior to anything I've felt/seen/smelled that I had confidence without testing.

My favorite source for information is our large animal vet who has 150+ sheep of his own. His recommendation, for his market southdown sheep, is to get grass hay of decent quality. He supplements his market lambs with grain to get good weight grain and will 'sprinkle' on some nice alfalfa into the feeders along with the grain.

I only had low to medium dairy quality alfalfa till recently and our ram became very obese - too rich! He's on grass hay only now. But the east friesian cross ewe and her lambs did great on the alfalfa as did the border leicesters.

Our local county extension will test hay for about $28. The supplement company that does farm calls will come out and test for you for maybe $38. The two hay suppliers that produced large quantities of hay agreed to test for me.

Then what to do about the results? boy, that was a learning curve. In the end, I focus on two things: rfv/rfq and calcium. Relative forage value/relative forage quality gives a summary evaluation of how the hay ranks in terms of all nutrients/calories/digestibility. Calcium tells me if my goats are getting enough or if I need to worry about milk fever during lactation.

Hay should smell good - like a bit of summer. Clean and sweet. 

I got stuck with some kinda trashed alfalfa hay last year and the animals would nibble the itsy bitsy leaves and toss the rest - didn't have to buy any bedding because that's what the hay became. Never any waste at all with the beautiful brome.

to find the good stuff I just kept asking away - asked everyone and anyone I could find where did they get their hay, who could I talk to.... and finally got some beautiful alfalfa and brome this year.


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## LibertyWool (Oct 23, 2008)

Cathleenc, good advice and observations. 

With feeding alfalfa, I would figure you would not have any calcium problems. Is that what you have found? From the feed tables it looks like it should be between 1.13 and 1.41%, is that about what you are seeing? We don't get much alfalfa in Maine, mostly Timothy clover mix. I do purchase alfalfa pellets for my ram lambs to bring up the calcium content to avoid urinary calculi.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

LibertyWool said:


> With feeding alfalfa, I would figure you would not have any calcium problems. Is that what you have found? From the feed tables it looks like it should be between 1.13 and 1.41%, is that about what you are seeing? We don't get much alfalfa in Maine, mostly Timothy clover mix. I do purchase alfalfa pellets for my ram lambs to bring up the calcium content to avoid urinary calculi.



I've had calcium anywhere from .92% to 1.51% and no issues with so far. I'm also sure that the milking goats would have produced more on better hay the year I only had the .92%. My neighbor, who ran a goat dairy for 20+ years, tells me horror stories about having her entire herd get milk fever on nice green soft leafy 2nd cutting alfalfa that she did not have tested.... the phosphorous/calcium ratio is critical and that particular hay failed the ratio requirements. Scared me enough to test! She also feeds her goat bucks a small portion of grain (1/3 cup) to balance the alfalfa and get the right calcium/phosphorous ration to prevent calculi.

so much to learn. kinda knocks my socks off somedays!


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

Grass hays will generally be lower protein than legume hays (alfalfa or clover), given that both were cut at the appropriate stage. 

First cutting/second cutting hay means little IF they hay wasn't cut at the right stage (early - mid bud for the flowers). Here in northern WI, we get second and third cuttings from legumes, but only one cutting from grass.

Hays that were baled wet and treated with (proprionic?) acid to cure will not look as nice & green as hay not treated, although nutrients should be as good.

It will be hard to find one perfect hay that will meet all of your sheep's (or cow or goat or horse) nutritional needs, but a good hay will help you keep 
grain feeding to a minimum. No amount of grain will make up for poor hay.

Try to buy from the same farm/supplier, for consistency in quality.

Learn more about the mineral needs of sheep, the mineral excesses & lacks in the soils from where you buy your hay. You may need to supplement minerals, regardless of how good your hay is.


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## LibertyWool (Oct 23, 2008)

Chixarecute said:


> It will be hard to find one perfect hay that will meet all of your sheep's (or cow or goat or horse) nutritional needs, but a good hay will help you keep
> grain feeding to a minimum. No amount of grain will make up for poor hay.


I agree with the first part, but not the second part. As long as your sheep eat enough scratch (generally hay) to keep the rumen healthy, you can have a mostly grain diet. I don't believe in feeding sheep that way, but when you look at those nice big market lambs at the state fair, that is the type of diet they are being fed.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

Ross said:


> Horse hay is just grassy hay with no rain. Unless you ask the next horse person then its 2nd cut alfalfa. Good luck getting a straight answer on that one.


Horse hay could also be third cut alfalfa hay or any good quality grass hay. One lesson I keep learning: make good horse, sheep, etc. friends. You learn more from them than from anywhere else.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Well exactly Joshie there's nio such thing as a generalized "horse hay" I was completely stumped on Valley Grass Hay............ what the heck is valley grass hay!!!????


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## PNP Katahdins (Oct 28, 2008)

Ross said:


> I was completely stumped on Valley Grass Hay............ what the heck is valley grass hay!!!????


Valley grass hay sounds like an Oregon specialty from the OP's location, the Willamette Valley. The main product there is the grass seed. Sheep graze the fields at particular stages.

Here in southern Wisconsin we also see marsh hay for sale, which is used for mulching gardens and new lawns. The weeds won't survive in those conditions and bring in undesirable plants.

We have 40 acres of pasture and woods for our 100 or so ewes and rams, plus the lambs. All of our hay comes from neighbors, usually one guy who also supplies most of our shell corn. He and Paul understand each other and he will replace bad bales if needed. He does test the hay he sells commercially so we have a pretty good idea what's in ours too. It's usually second or third cut, grass and alfalfa. We like big square bales the best but can get big rounds, or small squares if a neighbor dairy farmer has some leftovers. Our feeders are optimized for feeding big squares by the bale or by the slice.

First cut usually has tougher stems since it starts growing in the fall (after third or fourth cutting), overwinters with our wide temperature swings, continues growing in the spring, and finally gets baled in between rainstorms. Sheep waste a lot of it.

Peg


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## Feathers-N-Fur (Dec 17, 2007)

My FIL has been raising sheep here his whole life, not far from you. He feeds valley grass hay and barley screening pellets and a selenium salt block and that's it. He has wonderful looking sheep. My BIL fiddles around with lots of different hay, grain, alfalfa etc... His high dollar sheep are no where near as healthy. 
You can feed any of the hays you mentioned, but I follow my FIL's advise and stick with the valley grass hay. And you are right, there is no second cutting here in the valley. The water to irrigate costs more than the hay is worth. Anything that says second cutting is from eastern Oregon.
If you do buy alfalfa, pay attention to where it comes from. There are farmers attempting to grow alfalfa here in the valley. It can be done, but it won't be as good as the eastern Oregon stuff. Any hay from over the hills will be higher in nutrition than what is grown here in the valley because our rain washes out a lot of the nutrition. That applies to corn as well.


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## Feathers-N-Fur (Dec 17, 2007)

Forgot to mention, be very, very cautious buying hay this year. Probably close to half the hay crop this year got rained on. Unscrupulous people have been selling it as good hay. Once it is cut and it gets rained on, it will not be as good, even if it was dry when baled. If it was already baled when it was rained on, it could seriously harm your animal, or cause a barn fire if it is stored wet.


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## eieiomom (Jun 22, 2005)

If the hay has been rained on and even if it is dried out and baled, there will be an odor to it that sheep do not like and therefore.... will not eat.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

> If the hay has been rained on and even if it is dried out and baled, there will be an odor to it that sheep do not like and therefore.... will not eat.


Ummmm my sheep eat dried off rained on hay just fine. I agree its not as good but properly made from there on is still usable hay. I just sup a little liquid vit AD in their water.


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## eieiomom (Jun 22, 2005)

Guess I should have written that _some _sheep won't eat hay that has been rained on due to a unique odor.....


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