# Stud service???



## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

We are getting a highland bull for breeding. His brother is natinoal grandchamp reserve. I already have people wanting him for service. (he's not here yet) What should I charge. I have the option of having the cows and heifers here or taking him to the cows/heifers. I prefer here. 
What is you opinion of charges per head?


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

I believe his papers will be pulled when we get him.


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

myheaven said:


> I believe his papers will be pulled when we get him.


 Please clarify "papers pulled"????
Your idea is sound. Make sure you are compensated for feeding and handling "guest females" I would charge what a service to a good AI beef bull would cost that customer, or slightly more as you offer an uncommon, or "specialty" product. cheers................


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## john in la (Jul 15, 2005)

A cow stud service should cost more than a AI service of a like cow; because the bull is doing all the work of heat detection and you have feed involved in the equation. Most people will use AI because you can get a lot better bull for the money; but some need to use a real bull because they can not; or DO NOT want the trouble of detecting heat cycles; or have a poor breeding cow.
Some cows that are hard to breed with AI will breed with a bull because of the amount of semen. This is why a bull can breed any time during the standing heat period but AI needs to be done at the end of the cycle.

Now with that said I would think long and hard before selling stud service.
Transmission of disease from farm to farm is a real problem with stud service.
Another is low semen counts if you stretch your bull to far.
Some things I would suggest if you decide to go through with it................

Insist that all cows come to you.
Build a bull pen to keep the cow off your pasture and away from your herd.
Build a bull ramp so your bull does not hurt young cows.
Only sell your service at times of the year you are not breeding your own cows.


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

What is a bull ramp???
We are building a 'Bull breeding area" 
The cows MUST have vet certic of health. If they are not vet checked to be clean then the will not breed with my bull. 
Papers being pulled= We may not purchase his paper/registration along with him. Im waiting on a response from the people how much extra they are charging for his papers/registration. 
He is a proven bull he has 4 babies due this year or have been delivered. I have a calander and he will not breed more than 4 cows a mth at BEST!!!!
We will be compensated for the extra feed vet care and all. no problem. They will be responsable for the cows transport.
How do I find out how much ai runs. It has been 12+ years sence I have dealt with ai and I was just the glove getter(i was a kid).
People are very excited that I will be his owner. They know him and his heritage and are very excited. He is a GREAT beef bull his muscle is amazing!!!! I have never seen something so beautiful. 

Thank you all for your help.


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

I havent found much but what I see is 25-100 per straw with a 10-5 straw min. THe 100 had 5 straw min and the 25 had 10 straw min. SO I assume 250 a head I should charge??? :shrug: 
I dont want to over charge but I dont want to get ripped off. 
Thank you all again


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## john in la (Jul 15, 2005)

Sounds like you have a good plan so far.

A bull breeding shoot is a ramp that the bull can use for support instead of using the cows back. It requires a lot more work because you need to bring the cow to the bull shoot for breeding but it prevents back injuries to heifers from big bulls.

Call your vet and ask about service prices and AI service in your area to get a ball park amount.
While I do not know your area and services available around you; the pedigree of this bull; I will stick my head out and say.........
$50 and up a shot OR
$75 and up guaranteed breed


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## john in la (Jul 15, 2005)

myheaven said:


> I havent found much but what I see is 25-100 per straw with a 10-5 straw min. THe 100 had 5 straw min and the 25 had 10 straw min. SO I assume 250 a head I should charge??? :shrug:
> I dont want to over charge but I dont want to get ripped off.
> Thank you all again



You can not figure on the total price of all straws. You need to go on the price per straw because a AI tech will save all extras for other cows.

So at $25 a straw and $25 AI tech that is $50 a shot.
At $100 a straw and $25 AI tech that is $125 a shot.
Where does your bull fit in compared to the straw bulls.

You could add about $25 for real bull heat detection so my figures should have been $75 a shot and $100 guaranteed breed. BUT I AM ONLY GUESSING because I do not know your bull.


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## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

Papers on a registered animal should not cost extra, they should be included in the price unless the fact that they will be sold without papers is made extremely clear in the beginning (before any money changes hands).

The value of an unregistered bull is drastically lower than one with papers. The value of the offspring of an unregistered bull is a lot lower. This makes his semen/service a lot less valuable. 

Has this bull had his semen checked? Been checked for various STD's? Those are extremely important and anyone who would send a cow there is going to want to know (and see) the results of those tests.

Jena


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

I know he is checked for all the std's and he is proven. He is a stud animal already. He is very well cared for. 

Now I have a whole new set of Questions. 
How long should I let him be with the girl to be bread. week, 10-14 days? 
As you can see im very new to this. I only worked dairy farms and we only dealt with the girls. We did the inseminating. And still that was a long time ago. 
THe bull is regesterd now. But they were talknig about pulling his papers when he is sold. Im waiting to see how much the price will be affected with and without the papers. 
thank you all so much for the advice.


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

The seller of said bull may be responsible to pay transfer fees if you get papers with bull, some breed associations require this. For the purpose you have in mind, I would not even consider this bull purchase unless you negotiate proper transfer of papers so he is registered.
Many beef operators will run 1 Bull for 40 cows and expect them all to be pregnant in 60 days, so I think you are being too conservative to limit him to 4 cows per month.
You might consider charging per cow/perday for feed& housing of guest cows, similar to dry cow pasture rent fees( for example $1.85 per head per day),
Then charge a separate preset fee for stud service as Horse Stallion owners would.
This would encourage cow owners to track heats, ,bring cows 2-3 days before heat, get them off your place immediately after breeding. If heat tracking is done beforehand, Bull should only need to be with guest cow 2-4 days. You don't want Bull running with a flock of guest cows while you feed them, etc.
Just some considerations you may wish to think on....


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## Patt (May 18, 2003)

For ACHA (American Highland Cattle Association) it's $60 for a bull 0-24 months and $120 for a bull older than 24 months if he's NEVER been registered at all. If your bull is already registered all they need to pay is the transfer fee which is only $20 within 90 days of sale and $40 after 90 days of sale.. Well worth the cost if you using him for stud or just your own cows.


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

thank you all for all your information. You have helped me out a ton


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

Been thinking more on your proposal and perhaps you should consider this:
In Wisconsin, most all beef are bred for spring or fall calving. Spring calving of March 1 to May 15 means your bull would be in demand from June 1 to Aug. 15.
Fall calving of Sept. 15 to Dec. 1 means Bull would be in demand again from
Dec. 15 to March 1.
So you would have two heavy breeding seasons with periods of rest and rebuilding in between. You could maybe plan on him breeding as many as 15-20 cows during each 75 day breeding season, if you can develop that many clients.
Most of your clients will be Highland owners who wish to keep stock purebred. Base your pricing on the fact that you are offering a specialty they cannot get but from a few sources. Most AI companies do not delve into small number specialty breeds such as those found on ALBC, so price competition from AI may not be the limiting factor as to what you can charge.
You need to investigate if AI is available for Highland breeding within 150 mile radius of your ranch, and if so what are costs?
You will need to charge as much as market will bear. Because in a mere 2 years your clients will demand you replace this bull or have another bull standing at stud so they can bring current bull's daughters to you and not have inbreeding.
My last thought is I would never operate such a venture on the basis of gauranteeing a pregnancy. The liabilities would be to great for a small scale venture. Someone could bring you a Cystic cow, a 15 year old cow.
Someone could take a pregnant cow home and then have an embryo sluff off and cow will come up open. You would be open to financial liability in all cases. Why do you think every major stud has disclaimers in every bull catalog they print? If they can't absorb these liabilities, a private individual with one Bull certainly can't.
I would first decide a structure of how you will charge , then zero in on particulars of HOW MUCH to charge for 2 distinct services 1) Feeding and housing guest cows and 2) Stud Fee. Also, better at least give a wee bit of thought as to how you will handle it if a guest cow slips and falls, breaks leg, or dies while in your care. With cows, if anything bad can happen, eventually it will.

And here you thought this would all be simple, LOL. Not to scare you off with all the "worst-case" scenarios that may never happen, but better to think it all thru ahead of time. 
*** Best of Luck with deciding your course of action*************


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## lilsassafrass (May 13, 2002)

One comment , 

As Long time member of AHCA.. I find it reprehensible that the seller of the bull wasn't clear in the beginning that the papers either went with the bull or not, and that you would be paying extra for them after the fact of agreeing on a purchace price ...... that should have been very clear in the beginning ... no papers/ transfer .. one price .. with papers a different price is fine .. but after you have agreed to purchace and the owner say ohh by the way if you want his papers (that will give him any kind of value) we will ask you to pay more .... bad practice and very unethical 
And the owner could ask for the sun and moon .. because if you want to use him on registered cows you are obligated to go back and pay for those "pulled papers "at what ever the owner want you to pay .... 
Its done ... but as far as I am concerned it very bad practice, especially to some one who is a new breeder of Highland cattle!
Shame on them !!!

Paula 
Hyde Park Farm


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## 65284 (Sep 17, 2003)

Not trying to rain on your parade, or insult you, but. While Highland's are not rare they are not really common either. So, I would guess the majority of Highland cows needing serviced would be registered. Unless there were absolutely no other choice why in the world would anyone pay a stud fee to use an unregistered bull? Any resulting calves couldn't be registered, their value would be pretty much limited to meat price, or novelty value. If someone was wanting calves just for beef there are better breed choices available. If I had a registered Highland cow or was looking for an animal to sire beef calves I wouldn't let your bull near one of my cows if I had any other option. Again, I'm not trying to offend you, just stating my opinion. An unregistered Highland bull isn't very good property as a prospective breeding animal, especially one being considered in a fee for service context.


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## lilsassafrass (May 13, 2002)

65284 said:


> Not trying to rain on your parade, or insult you, but. While Highland's are not rare they are not really common either. So, I would guess the majority of Highland cows needing serviced would be registered. Unless there were absolutely no other choice why in the world would anyone pay a stud fee to use an unregistered bull? Any resulting calves couldn't be registered, their value would be pretty much limited to meat price, or novelty value. If someone was wanting calves just for beef there are better breed choices available. If I had a registered Highland cow or was looking for an animal to sire beef calves I wouldn't let your bull near one of my cows if I had any other option. Again, I'm not trying to offend you, just stating my opinion. An unregistered Highland bull isn't very good property as a prospective breeding animal, especially one being considered in a fee for service context.


There are probably just as many folds of highland cattle that are unregistersd as there are registered and the association does monitor the folds who choose to be with breeding data ... how ever on a breed stock basis the ones that are registered will bring a better price on sale .. 

also highland blood in outcrossing tends to improve the resulting progeny animal all the way around check out teh ahca website for more data 
and would be a good investment in a crossbreeding program 

Paula 
Hyde park Farm


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

he will retain his registration. I just talked with the woman. She is lowering his price for me due to the fact the cow shen was getting for me was sold before she got to pay for her. MAkes me sad. She has been hunting for a new cow for me. She has found on but she cost 400 more. Dh says go for it. She (woman who owns bull now) has people lined up for the bull next year also. So she realy is compensating me for the loss of the girl. 
Only problem with the new girl is, the bull may have sired the calf she is pregnant with. It will only bwe a problem if its a girl. I dont want to imbreed so soon. Im sure i can do a deal with another bull owner.

The papers for the bull will be kept in their name till all the babies are born that he sired. then I believe the papers will be transfered. We didnt get to talk much she had to leave for a show. 

So he may be worth some money.


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## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

I'd run away from these people as fast as possible. I would not buy a cow from them if they are so irresponsible that they don't even know who bred her. I've had "accidents" with bulls before, but I would never sell a registered animal without knowing exactly who bred her.

There is no reason for her to keep the bull's papers due to unborn calves. The papers should be transferred as soon as the sale is complete.

Jena


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## lilsassafrass (May 13, 2002)

I agree with jena ,on the un nescessity of retaining the bulls papers till all his calves are born .. how ever many highland breeders routinely DNA test their calves .. and as of jan 1 of 06 it is mandatory to DNA test all bull calves to be registered .. as well as any heifer/bull that is registered after the age of two need both sire and dam DNA tested ... 
that one is a booger for me because the only unregistered heifer I have that is over two I delayed registering as her temper wasnt as mellow as i would have liked 
she out of a 17 yr old cow .. last year her dam died .. go figuere.. and since the only other female calf I kept out of her was the one she dropped right after I bought her ten years prior,I considered sending in her application ... well you can see how i am stuck on that one .. now as soon as she drops her calf later this spring I am sending her and calfto sale barn unless i can find a buyer sooner ... she isnt particulary mean .. but she becomes mean when confined in stantion or haltered 
I'm drifting off topic 

I agree though there isnt any need to retain the bulls papers till afteer calving ... as teh application only need the signiture of the bull owner at teh time of breeding !!!! and that includes any cows he may have bred for other owners in service sounds to me she wants to get another early sseason of breeding out of him and credit bull ownership to her fold for teh resulting calves ....
I dont know 
And if its another cow you need ... hey ... i always have a few extra to sell if you are near Ohio

Paula 
Hyde Park Farm


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

Im interested in more cows yes. I want to run 3 girls and one boy. But want and what happens are 2 totally diffrent things.
The girl ran with 3 leased bulls in a pen of 100 cows/heifers. She dosent own the girls she leased the bull I want to buy to the cows owners.
The girl is not regestered. I dont care about the girls to be regestered I just want them for milk and making meat. The bull I could make more off if he stays regestered. Shes charging 1000 for the bull ans the new cow is 1200. 
Am I being SCREWED????


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## Muskrat (Sep 4, 2005)

myheaven said:


> Im interested in more cows yes. I want to run 3 girls and one boy. But want and what happens are 2 totally diffrent things.
> The girl ran with 3 leased bulls in a pen of 100 cows/heifers. She dosent own the girls she leased the bull I want to buy to the cows owners.
> The girl is not regestered. I dont care about the girls to be regestered I just want them for milk and making meat. The bull I could make more off if he stays regestered. Shes charging 1000 for the bull ans the new cow is 1200.
> Am I being SCREWED????



There is no way to judge without knowing more about the bull. My best bull's full brother sold for $7,000, I've never priced my best bull for sale. My favorite bull cost $500. 

To be frank, I don't care for this whole deal you're describing. Too many uncertainties and questions as far as I'm concerned, but then I'm not on the scene and shouldn't be second-guessing you. In your place, I would want those papers and I would want them when any money changed hands. Nothing the owners of the bull are telling you about papers would be a part of any deal I would make; in my opinion, many of the things they are telling you are not in line with the truth as I know it.

Even if it's on the up and up, I'm concerned that you're a little inexperienced for taking on the stud service. Even a mild-mannered bull is a lot of animal to handle, and they get really, really, really, really focused on sex. A bull can NEVER, EVER be trusted. Mix in sex and a strange cow and things can go badly wrong. It is, however, a way to get lots of experience very quickly. Just be really, really careful handling him and plan well.

Maintaining a bull for three cows will get expensive. I hope you can manage enough additional breeding to make him worthwhile.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

AND BE CAREFUL!!! :cute:


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

I wouldnt be breeding him till i realy got to know him. Not here at least. I havent told her yet that im going to buy now. due to the major change with the cow. the whole deal may be off. im going to think long and hard before i say yes. My husband wants me to call and say well do it but I just dont know. Im dumb and could be bending over for a real stiff pole. Thats why i have all of you to help guide me.


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## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

To be perfectly honest, I was wondering about the whole "stud service" thing. I know they do it like that with horses, but I have never, ever heard of anyone sending a cow out for breeding. AI is too easy and much cheaper. Everyone else had ideas about it so what do I know. Maybe highlands (being a specialty breed) are different?

I would not count on making the money back on him from the stud service thing. If you are only breeding 3 cows, then you need to think about that too. As far as waiting to use him...if he's bought to breed, he ought to start earning his keep the minute he hits your place.

Also, as a side note...the owners say he's proven, but I'd still insist on a semen test. He may or may not have sired those calves, also other factors can affect semen production...things could have changed. It is standard practice to have breeding bulls semen tested for the buyer. You should not have to pay for that.

Jena


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## lilsassafrass (May 13, 2002)

Jena once again i agree with you 
something sounds very fishy , 
now a 1000 is not an unfair price for a proven unregistered highland , thats what I sold my last senior bull for to a hereford crossbreeding program 
He was a grand champion at teh NAILE oh ... so many years ago 
I actually only paid 500 for him too ....

A BULL IN THE BOX IS CHEAPER THAN A BULL IN THE BARN !

Also health wise if you are planning on stud service ... you need to consider your insurance of both your animals as well as visiting animals 
all it takes is one sick cow comeing to your fold and you could be in for a lot of expense for other folks animals ... your bull could pass some very contagious stuff ... like the various venerial diseases to say teh least 

You need to have a good relationship with your vet and will want any cow comeing to visit to have a veterinary examination and health papers at cow owners expense .. and sign releases 
you will need to stay on top of your bulls health as well 
fertility testing at teh very least ... 
a lot to think about


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

I believe i will pass on the bull and new cow. I think I will look into babies. I will feel more comforable with that. Besides i want to be able to haulter train the babies. These arne thaulter trained. 

Any one know where I can get highland babies? lol
Im bad i know
thank you all for your help.


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## Ohiofarmer (Feb 26, 2007)

Thank GOODNESS! Good idea passing on that DEAL! I dont know if its the way you describe things, or not. I just read the whole post and this is not how to enter into the cattle business. You need someone to go with you who you are NOT ever buying cattle from so you can have an honest pair of eyes and ears with you until you are more experienced. Great ambition though...I would not want to keep a bull unless I had at least a dozen cows to breed every year. That still is not the most economical, but when the bull does his job and is nice to handle, its better than trying to get all the girls bred by transporting them or AI, to me. I would stick with regestered Highland Cattle since the purebred registration will get you better money for the same feed/fencing/shelter costs. If you really like them and want to raise them for the long term. I like my polled Herefords myself! GOOD LUCK!
OF


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## a1cowmilker (Jun 14, 2005)

I was really getting into this thread. I could not stop reading.

I was so relieved when you said that you would pass on this bull. I don't know much about bulls (or cattle) but I know that bulls can kill people and they do every year.

I was worried that you might not have all the experience that you might need for this particular bull. And sometimes experience can be very expensive.

Several years ago I tried to get my jersey to milk her when she was in heat in the pasture with our "gentle" bull. I got the rope on her and that was about all. Then I spent a good evening trying to get the rope OFF her. I had to get on one side of the fence and keep her on the other side of the fence with the bull. She didn't get milked that evening, but I did get to live.
Bulls are extremely focused on their job and I will never ever interfer with that again.

I wish you the very best with your budding cattle operation. It can be lots of fun.


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## piglady (Sep 28, 2006)

We raise highlands and here is what I have found. We leased a bull in the early days. He came to our farm so we had to feed him. Paid $50 per cow that he serviced. We had planned to only keep him a short time but the owner was enjoying us feeding him too much and always had excuses why we could not return him when we attempted. After several months, we delivered him anyway. You should be able to get a good young bull starting at $1,000. Highlands are still a hobby farm cow so your customers are going to be looking for different things than say a $1,000 angus producer would. Don't get me wrong, I think highlands are a great beef animal but I will save my sales pitch for another time. One thing hobby farm owners are going to look for is color. They buy highlands because they look beautiful and they are gentle. Red is the most common color so they bring the lowest price (save your flame throwers, I'm just speaking from my experience). A colorful bull will sell faster and bring more, as will his colorful daughters. Seems that dun is the most desired color here right now. You can buy a bull, use him and then sell him for what you paid. All his service will cost you is the feed while you had him. Now for halter training the bull calf. I know people want their cows to be pets and yes that's great for cows but I personally do not want a bull that feels comfortable coming up to me for a treat or anything else. We bought a young spoiled bull like that and I set out to put the fear of God in him. Now he doesn't bother me and I never take my eye off him in the pasture. You don't want a wild hare but you don't need a pet bull either. He should have a good respect of you and be a little worried about coming into your space. Just my two cents mind you.


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