# looking on some feedback for setting up a pasture



## MikePote (Feb 24, 2014)

Greetings everybody,

I have been lurking on this board for a couple months reading through all sorts of old posts. I am in the process of buying 40 acres with pond and a few buildings in southern Illinois that I plan to pseudo homestead (we are moving a small company with us that will provide the majority of our financial needs). Our intention is to raise most of our own food as well as market garden, with the goal of basically living off our land eventually.

Recently I have been doing research on raising animals on pasture in order to let them have a more natural life as well as save on feed costs. I was thinking of doing 50 meat chickens (probably freedom rangers), 10-15 laying hens, 3 pigs and considering 3-5 turkeys. I felt that this would be a good amount of meat but also not be too overwhelming.

My question is mostly on setting up the pasture. I will be building the housing and fencing for the animals so I am more or less free to design whatever setup I want within reason. I was thinking of setting it up with the animal house in the center of two 100' x 300' pastures, located longways along a tree line so that could have part of the pasture be wooded if I see fit. I would keep all the animals on the same pasture and rotate every couple months or so. 

What are you opinions:
- I assume it is enough land for the animals
- Would anybody have issues putting those animals on the same pasture? I know some have had pigs eat chickens but I would be willing to roll the dice and change it up if need be. 
- Should I do four smaller pastures as opposed to two big ones? I was aiming for something large so the animals don't completely destroy the pasture. I know pigs will root and its not going to be perfect I just wanted to avoid having a giant patch of dirt
- I was thinking of digging a small pond/mudhole shared by the two pastures for water and for the pigs to play
- I was going to do woven wire rolled fence and electrify if need be

I will do more research on rotational grazing also. I have done a little so far but everything seems to be geared towards a specific animal or on how to best utilize a specific space. I also wanted the pastures to be bigger than necessary because I will more than likely have more and probably different animals in the future. Possibly a couple of goats and a handful of ducks. I doubt I would ever go for cattle - not enough room. I am open to all suggestions and thanks for any help.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

MikePote said:


> I assume it is enough land for the animals


Yes. If anything, don't setup too large a pasture setup because you'll get weedy pastures. More small paddocks is better than few large paddocks. 




MikePote said:


> - Would anybody have issues putting those animals on the same pasture? I know some have had pigs eat chickens but I would be willing to roll the dice and change it up if need be.


Most of the time it works fine for us to keep pigs, sheep (goats are similar), chickens, ducks and geese all together on pastures. Many people have reported than in penned situations the pigs become chicken killers. Corners are an issue. Out on pasture the animals seem to interact fine.

Note I said "most of the time". During lambing season separate off the ewes and let the lambs get their feet under them. A week later they seem fine back in mixed groups. When poultry are very small they need a separate space from the pigs or they may get vacuumed.



MikePote said:


> - Should I do four smaller pastures as opposed to two big ones? I was aiming for something large so the animals don't completely destroy the pasture.


I would suggest you do a minimum of ten small paddocks. More paddocks is better.



MikePote said:


> I know pigs will root and its not going to be perfect I just wanted to avoid having a giant patch of dirt


I find that rooting is pretty controllable. There are several factor's that influence rooting behavior such as "Is there something good below the surface?" or "Is the good stuff on top?" Our pigs root very little. Rooting is a sign you need to be rotating. See:

http://sugarmtnfarm.com/rootless-in-vermont/



MikePote said:


> - I was thinking of digging a small pond/mudhole shared by the two pastures for water and for the pigs to play


That is what we did. These are supplied by small springs. The pigs pack them so they are water tight. Works great. This is a tradition centuries old method of making a pond. If you don't pick a place for it, they will.



MikePote said:


> - I was going to do woven wire rolled fence and electrify if need be


Woven wire around the perimeter with a hot wire on the inside is a good strong perimeter fence. Put a hot wire low and on top if you have serious predator issues. 

For your inner paddock fencing, once the pigs are trained to electricity, two or three wires on step in posts can be enough.

Our perimeter fence is about 1.5 miles of four strands of electrified smooth wire most of which is just in front of stone walls. Good visual barriers help a lot. Brush, logs, branches, etc outside the fence make good visuals. Flag the fence otherwise. Our interior field fences are smooth wire and powered off of the perimeter. Then the paddock divisions made of polywire on step in posts are powered off the field fences. The exterior perimeter is powered by two 15 joule (divided) energizers. We have another 6 joule energizer for a inner area. This is a total of about 70 acres of which we use about 40 acres any year for about 400 pigs where they get most of their food from the pastures and orchards.

Good fences make good neighbors. We have no (near) neighbors. We have good fences. 

Here is a google search pattern into HomesteadingToday.com which will find more on how people have been doing rotational grazing for pigs:

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs rotational grazing

We do managed rotational grazing to provide the vast majority of our pigs's feed (~400 with about 60 breeders) and it works well. It takes some time to learn rotational grazing, to improve your field forages, etc. Grow slowly. Take on a little more each year as you get things under control.

Cheers,

-Walter Jeffries
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

Woven wire will work ok. Just make sure it is tight and right next to the ground. No space under the wire. I would double the space that you have posted and divide it into 4 areas with woven wire and gates for each area.


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## MikePote (Feb 24, 2014)

Thanks for the quick responses.

Highlands you had suggested 10 small paddocks. Is that based on the area I said I was considering using for pasture or was it just a general idea you had. How big would you feel is good for a small paddock and how about rotation? Every few weeks or just wait until the one they are on looks used up and move on?

Also can I search like that for any website? My home brew forum has a search powered by google and it is sooooooooo much nicer than the regular search that still pops up on the occasional page.

Thanks again.


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## PasturedPork (Jan 22, 2014)

My moms family is from south-central IL. You are lucky because that area has great soils and climate for being self sufficient.

I think your biting off too much to start. 40 acres is a big farm and will require serious investment to maintain. 

Maybe you can homestead 5 or so of the acres and lease the rest to someone you trust? You could then grow your own food and the lease could pay the taxes while helping another local farmer.

I raise 80-100 pigs, 5 steers, 6 lambs and 100+ chickens a year on 5 acres. The woven wire fence for the perimeter cost a ton of money and gates, waterers and even the livestock themselves were a giant investment for us. 

In that part of the state if you have woods you will have deer. Consider them as a potential source for meat too. 

My advice is start off smaller and go from there. Jumping in could be a very costly learning experience. 

Congrats on your families job and committing to the homesteading lifestyle.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

PasturedPork said:


> My moms family is from south-central IL. You are lucky because that area has great soils and climate for being self sufficient.
> 
> I think your biting off too much to start. 40 acres is a big farm and will require serious investment to maintain.
> 
> ...


40 acres is small. I have a couple thousand acres. My advice is buy all you can as the price keeps going up and the land you buy is a very good investment in itself.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

PasturedPork said:


> I think your biting off too much to start. 40 acres is a big farm and will require serious investment to maintain.


I would say exactly the opposite. 

Get the 40 acres now, or more, and then use what one needs. As a general rule they aren't making more land. Prices are depressed now. Now is the time to buy. Just because you have 40 acres doesn't mean you have to be using it all for one thing. We have 1,000 acres of land. Most of that we do as sustainable forestry - a long term crop. About 70 acres is marshes and other wildlife areas. Our sugar bush is about 70 acres. Our farming area is about 70 acres of which we use only about 40 acres a year with managed rotational grazing. By having the other land available we can shift our uses and expand one or another part of our business. Farming and forestry are businesses and having room for expansion is good. Land is one of those resources that can sit and with minimal input continue to get better.



PasturedPork said:


> Maybe you can homestead 5


They would outgrow that _VERY_ fast.



PasturedPork said:


> I raise 80-100 pigs, 5 steers, 6 lambs and 100+ chickens a year on 5 acres. The woven wire fence for the perimeter cost a ton of money and gates, waterers and even the livestock themselves were a giant investment for us.


"PasturedPork" are you keeping your animals in a confinement feed lot? That is not much land. According to the stocking densities I've read you are 6x greater than the recommended rates. According to my experience with well developed pastures you're about 2.5x greater than the maximum I would want to try for stocking density. The animal density is far too high for pasture based systems management. I would be interested to see a lot of photos of your setup that could actually sustainably support Pasted Pork at that kind of stocking density.


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## PasturedPork (Jan 22, 2014)

Kinda off topic but here is what I do.

10 half acre paddocks not including a sacrifice area. I have 6 sows and 1 boar. We average 9 weaned pigs per sow and have two breedings per year. The group of feeder pigs are rotated on the pasture for 3 days each paddock followed by the ungulates followed by the sows. 
This gives us a 30 day rest period.

We are in a highly productive environment and irrigate. Our top soil is 7+ feet deep and the dry climate is perfect for growing forages with irrigation. We feed waste fruit and whole grains plus soybean meal. We average about 500lbs feed to get a 250lb animal which I think is really good.

It's nowhere near a feedlot situation except in the winter we pen the animals up in our garden area with tons of straw and hay- similar to what you do highlands. Then we start rotating about mid April. Our growing season ends in mid November. 

We are blessed with some of the most productive farmland in the country plus careful management allows us to be a farm I am proud of.


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## PasturedPork (Jan 22, 2014)

I didn't mean to discourage you from buying the whole 40 acres. I was just putting it out there that you didn't have to farm it all.

I don't understand how a family your size would outgrow 5 acres. Some people raise tons of good food on a few acres. 

I would advise against giving pigs access to ponds. They will pollute the pond and maybe even ground water. Wallows in rotated pastures are oK in my book but not permanent ponds.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

PP, He was suggesting making ponds for the pigs. This is what we do. I think that is very different than what you are thinking of as ponds. We create a depression, or have the pigs do it, and then let water collect there or be directed there. The pigs compact the soil in that area creating a wallow. Ducks keep the water stirred up. Frogs come to populate it. Insects populate it. Plants grow in it. Voila, it's a pond, very small but a pond for pigs. Don't swim in the pig pond but there is no environment problem with having a pig pond. It works great.


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## PasturedPork (Jan 22, 2014)

Ok I think I understand. I thought you all were talking about farm ponds with fish, etc. in those cases pigs would cause erosion and nutrient issues.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

MikePote said:


> Highlands you had suggested 10 small paddocks. Is that based on the area I said I was considering using for pasture or was it just a general idea you had.


Ten is a good small number that will fit your number of animals and be manageable. Smaller paddocks are better because the animals rotate off them faster. How fast the animals rotate changes with the season as the forages grow differently and the size of the animals as they eat differently and the number of animals. For really intensive grazing you could rotate them every half day. Too much work for me. Three days to two weeks works well. Topography often places limits on how you actually want to lay things out. Lanes can be setup to move animals in and out of further out paddocks. If the lanes are divided in half or thirds a temporary wire can shift the traffic so no part of the lane gets too warn.



MikePote said:


> Every few weeks or just wait until the one they are on looks used up and move on?


You really, really want to move out of a paddock by two weeks. This is to break the parasite life cycle.

You probably want to move out sooner than that. This is to prevent over grazing and soil compaction.

If the animals are not grazing everything down by two weeks when the good stuff is used then the paddock is too large (or the animals are too small / too few).

Then you want to keep the animals out of the paddock long enough to have parasites die off (>21 day cycle for most) and forages regrow (varies with forages and season).



MikePote said:


> Also can I search like that for any website?


Yes, isn't google great!  That's a search pattern you can customize. You can even make links and buttons out of it for web pages.

My home brew forum has a search powered by google and it is sooooooooo much nicer than the regular search that still pops up on the occasional page.[/QUOTE]

Cheers,

-Walter


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## PasturedPork (Jan 22, 2014)

Paddock size depends on number of animals.

Two weeks is too long to stay in one paddock for rotational grazing. They should be moved every 1-5 days or you will lose a lot of the benefits. If they stay too long you will have more selective grazing and more disease pressure.


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## MikePote (Feb 24, 2014)

Thanks again for all the responses.

PP - 
Where about is your mom from? We will be just south of marion. Also, we will not be farming all 40 acres off the bat. We were looking to do a nice area for animals for personal consumption and a 5ish acre market garden of which a couple acres will be garlic. We want to start fairly small, see what works, and go from there. And yes, just a shallow mud hole for the pigs to wallow and everything else to drink from. There is a really nice 4 acre pond on the property but the pigs will be no where it. 

40 acres is about all we can afford now but again we have a business that can provide for most/all of our needs financially. If we can figure out what works more than 40 acres will be in our future. Land is cheap, at least compared to the Chicago suburbs where we are moving from, and if we get to the point where we have been successful enough to need more land we will be able to afford to buy or rent something relatively close. About half of the land is woods and we are a little worried that it wont be enough but shouldn't need to address it for at least a few years.


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## PasturedPork (Jan 22, 2014)

Outside Montrose.

A four acre pond will provide tons of food for your family. That's very lucky to have!

It's also great you have woods for firewood, hunting, and walking in. 

Congrats on your new lifestyle. I earn most of my income off farm. If you can feed your family good homegrown food and pay your taxes off your land you will be doing great!


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

PasturedPork said:


> Paddock size depends on number of animals.


Actually, not the number of animals but the number of pounds of animals. There is a big and very important difference when figuring grazing rates. 100 weaner pigs are very different than 100 finisher pigs which are very different than 100 sows.



PasturedPork said:


> Two weeks is too long to stay in one paddock for rotational grazing. They should be moved every 1-5 days or you will lose a lot of the benefits. If they stay too long you will have more selective grazing and more disease pressure.


That is why I say two weeks as an upper limit. Stay below that ideally in the one to several day range. As I've noted before, some people will do the extreme of rotating more than once a day - I find that is too much work. Once every few days works well. It really depends on the season, fodder, pasture shape and pig pounds. This is one of those things you learn with experience and there is a wide latitude to experiment with.


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## MikePote (Feb 24, 2014)

Lots of great information everybody! Thanks so much


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