# ohhh the humanity.........



## TexasArtist (May 4, 2003)

****9 in 10 see rising gas prices causing family hardship.......

****Four dollar a gallon gas has stolen a beach vacation in South Carolina from Julie Jacobs' family and exotic bath washes from Angela Crawford. Phil English had to sell his beloved but fuel-guzzling red pickup.****

http://news.yahoo.com/page/election-2008-political-pulse-gas-prices

Since when the heck is not being able to go splish splash in some "exotic" bath tub a hardship??? Good greif there are folks haveing to go without food or give up decent paying job or flat out haveing the jobs leave and this is what worries these folks??:stars:


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## CowgirlGloria (Jun 19, 2008)

The trials and tribulations of the upper middle class / lower wealthy class. Giving up their beach vacations is pretty rough! Now, giving up a pickup truck would be a huge sacrifice around here. Giving up bathing ... well, I'm more into showers myself, but I'd have to get pretty hard up to give up hygiene - I think it is necessary for social acceptance, generally.


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## ladybug (Aug 18, 2002)

I think both the wealthy and the not so wealthy are feeling the crunch of super high gas prices, I know I have family that usually take a few vacations a year who said recently that with the price of gas and other things it no longer makes sense to go so much anymore. I haven't went on a vacation in years but it isn't a hardship to me but it probably would be to some of the folks who are used to living that lifestyle. I take my vacations in my garden


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## mamita (May 19, 2008)

'exotic' bath? uh....is that when you actually get the tubbie all to yourself without interruption?? oh wait....I guess I'm not on the same page as those peeps! LOL 

to me an exotic bath means I don't get disturbed for at least 30 mins. nothing outside of a house fire is allowed for intrusion........got my little puffy pillow...the door is locked. 

I remember a time when my hubby had lighted candles and wine waiting beside my tub filled with hot lavender scented water, and a cheeseplate. I kid you not. hey.........where the heck did he go???   

ok...as if things aren't bleak enough..........I now have to find THAT man.....


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

I had to give up my summer house in the Hamptons. I refuse to give up my yacht. I'll just do some insider trading on my corp. and then run away with the employee retirement funds to the bahamas. 

I hear it is humid there. I would really hate to lose my air conditioner, that would just be too much to bear!


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## TexasArtist (May 4, 2003)

hintonlady said:


> I had to give up my summer house in the Hamptons. I refuse to give up my yacht. I'll just do some insider trading on my corp. and then run away with the employee retirement funds to the bahamas.
> 
> I hear it is humid there. I would really hate to lose my air conditioner, that would just be too much to bear!


LOL yer to much, well make sure you send us a lovely post card or atleast some pics of you relaxing on the beach:cute:


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

People have more money than sense in this country. They complain about the high costs, yet spend, spend, spend like there is no tomorrow. They don't prep, or save, or even look a month or a year ahead as to what is really coming. Just to qualify my statement, I'll use the latest release movies as an example. Of the last 5 movies releases in the last several months, Wall-E has gossed 62 million, Wanted has grossed 51 Million, Get Smart has grossed 77 million, Kung Fu panda has grossed 179 million, and Indiana Jones has grossed a whopping 300 million !! 
With people able to spend millions upon millions for entertainment, it sure doesn't look like anyone is going thru any hardships, nor do they look like they are hedging against any future disasters .....
Ohio Rusty ><>


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## TexasArtist (May 4, 2003)

Ohio Rusty said:


> With people able to spend millions upon millions for entertainment, it sure doesn't look like anyone is going thru any hardships, nor do they look like they are hedging against any future disasters .....
> Ohio Rusty ><>


but Rusty, don't you understand one lady in that article had to switch from her designer liquad soap to bar soap...........where's your compassion man:bash:


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Although it's hard to muster up any sympathy for someone who can't afford expensive squirt soap in a fancy bottle, I do think it's a shame that our entire way of life is degrading. We on this board might choose to live simply and close to nature, but our country is based on freedom to live as we want to live. I have a hard time gloating as I see people going hungry and our standards in healthcare and basic living go down the tubes. 

I get the feeling some people are more interested in seeing the evil rich brought down to poverty, instead of wanting to have everyone in our country live better, more prosperous lives. Even if my own personal idea of "prosperous" means having money to stock up on food and having space to store it in, and having some land to grow animals and a garden, I still respect that other people have their own ideas of what makes their life good.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Mom_of_Four said:


> I get the feeling some people are more interested in seeing the evil rich brought down to poverty, instead of wanting to have everyone in our country live better, more prosperous lives. Even if my own personal idea of "prosperous" means having money to stock up on food and having space to store it in, and having some land to grow animals and a garden, I still respect that other people have their own ideas of what makes their life good.



My sentiments exactly, in one way, shape, or form we will all be affected. 

The one thing that folks so often forget when laughing at the plight of the UMC or MC is that they still have âmarginâ. When costs increase, they can cut out some of the fluff; itâs actually pretty easy to do when youâre forced to choose between needs and wants.

Itâs when youâre at an income level of being forced to choose between needs and needs that things get difficult. 

Chuck


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I'm still laughing at some of these "evil rich", most of whom are just wage-slaves living on credit, and what frivolous they find to be the neccessities of life. 

For me, the rising cost of oil means the price of coffee and bananas are going up ... two things I can't grow myself but could live without if I had to. (No coffee? Oh the humanity!) And Fig Newtons. I will have to find a way to keep living if Fig Newtons become unavailable. I already don't have a second home in the Hamptoms, a Yacht, or a McMansion to keep standing. There's plenty of "real" people who are facing hardship from the price of oil. Truckers, people laid off as manufacturing jobs are lost, etc. My heart does not bleed for someone who must start using consumer items instead of their fancy specialty crap. 

I don't particularly care if these other people do, but I wish they'd stop crying for the government to step in and save them when it'll be my tax dollars that have to do it. Lincoln freed the slaves, but the government is doing its best to enslave the rest of us.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Sympathy for those without reasonable common sense......

NOPE


My designer soap is wonderful . . . . .



Ivory


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## CowgirlGloria (Jun 19, 2008)

Oh, I've no concern about whether the "evil rich" end up poor. Indeed, I don't consider them evil. I do consider them stupid for talking to a reporter about their great suffering, as if they opened their eyes and look around they can see they aren't suffering at all. Mostly, I consider the reporter to be lazy for not finding the real stories of hardship that are all around us, and instead going for the human interest chuckle, inevitable at the reporting of such "hardship".

But I tend to agree that it is not newsworthy that someone cannot afford a vacation or designer soap (and apparently doesn't know how to make her own designer soap). It is newsworthy when people are starving to death. It is newsworthy when the economy shudders and people lose their jobs. It is newsworthy when people cannot afford both heat and lifesaving medicine.

That someone can't afford designer soaps or another isn't going on an expensive vacation is simply ... silly reporting, unless the reporter wants to go on to show how those areas of the economy will be heading south: as high end luxuries are not selling, and resort areas are empty, etc.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

sigh.

What you folks don't realize is that these ARE the folks most likely to vote and they are the ones that will drive our government to do unimaginable things in the name of the greater good. Laugh and mock them now, but these are the same folks who drive things like "organic" labeling and turning it into big business, NAIS, Homeland Security, Seat belt laws, etc. etc. etc.

I WANT them comfortable and content... at least then I have even odds of being left alone somewhat.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Seedspreader, you've known in your heart for a long time that their world was going to crash. That's why you live like you do and haven't tied yourself to their foolishness.

I do agree, however, that as they fall they're going to try and get the government to harness so much of OUR energy to feed their lifestyle. We've just gotta stay low and below their line of sight for awhile. Eventually they come around to our way of thinking, or they starve.


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

Some of us arent going to be effected very much. We've been broke for the last 5 or 6 years already. So I believe it's not gonna be as tough on us as it will some people. In fact we'll have it better as we own our land and are able to grow most of our own food on it.


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

it's tough all over:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lace-official-complains-Queen-patch-mend.html
> 
> On one's uppers! Down to her last Â£320m, a Palace official complains that the Queen has to 'patch and mend'


--sgl


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

TexasArtist said:


> but Rusty, don't you understand one lady in that article had to switch from her designer liquad soap to bar soap...........where's your compassion man:bash:



EXACTLY, do you have any idea how fast your poor people soaps will undo years of meticulous skin care with department store high end cosmetics?

The nerve!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Heh. I feel about the high end cosmetics and spa care the same way I feel about organic food stores.

If organic food is so healthy ... why do the people you find in organic food stores look so crappy?


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

sgl42 said:


> it's tough all over:
> 
> --sgl


To poorly quote Cartman from southpark:

"Dude that was so funny, I think I blew a funny fuse. Nothing will ever be that funny again, guys I can't laugh...."


1. you actually get paid to be queen, well shoot. I don't remeber the guidance counselor in highschool telling me about THAT job!

2. I got two words for you..._time share_.:banana02:


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## insocal (May 15, 2005)

mamita said:


> 'exotic' bath? uh....is that when you actually get the tubbie all to yourself without interruption?? oh wait....I guess I'm not on the same page as those peeps! LOL
> 
> to me an exotic bath means I don't get disturbed for at least 30 mins. nothing outside of a house fire is allowed for intrusion........got my little puffy pillow...the door is locked.
> 
> ...


The "exotic bath washes" the poor dear has to give up are those body washes that the yuppies use instead of "icky" bars of soap. Don't you know that soap bars are unsanitary and so, well, lower-class?

She is a Dallas "homemaker". Perhaps she would do well to:
1) Learn how to make homemade soap - I consider it an essential homemaking skill
2) Get a job that pays enough to fund her "exotic bath wash" habit - you know, a couple frickin' hours a WEEK. At MOST.

Oh, and you really do not want to know what I REALLY think of her and her over-privileged whining. I am holding back here because the mods are conservative.


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## insocal (May 15, 2005)

Mom_of_Four said:


> Although it's hard to muster up any sympathy for someone who can't afford expensive squirt soap in a fancy bottle, I do think it's a shame that our entire way of life is degrading. We on this board might choose to live simply and close to nature, but our country is based on freedom to live as we want to live. I have a hard time gloating as I see people going hungry and our standards in healthcare and basic living go down the tubes.
> 
> I get the feeling some people are more interested in seeing the evil rich brought down to poverty, instead of wanting to have everyone in our country live better, more prosperous lives. Even if my own personal idea of "prosperous" means having money to stock up on food and having space to store it in, and having some land to grow animals and a garden, I still respect that other people have their own ideas of what makes their life good.


The reason things are going to Hades in a handbasket is BECAUSE the "prosperous" as you put it (I call them the greedy) have been merrily wasting our precious natural resources and trying to game the banking system for FAR TOO LONG. And now all of us, and all of the world's poor for that matter, are suffering for it.

If I want to understand why gas is so expensive that I am hurting because of it, all I have to do is watch the traffic on Ventura Blvd all morning, noon, and night, as the ARMIES of big black SUVs drive down the street at breakneck speed, with the solitary soccer moms on their cell phones inside, blissfully unaware that what they do affects others.


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

here's another tear-jerker:


> http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/article473403.ece
> 
> Tampa condo is a tower of solitude


Seems he's living his [midlife-crisis] dream, and all the other people that were supposed to move into the new condo tower opted not too, so it's lonely for him and his girlfriend. Check out what the article says he does when he's bored. And the hardship he has to endure with no neighbors. He seems completely oblivious to what's likely to happen next. The comments are entertaining too. Can't help but laugh at all the irony of the situation.

--sgl


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Seedspreader, you've known in your heart for a long time that their world was going to crash. That's why you live like you do and haven't tied yourself to their foolishness.


I've got some bad news for you, "their" world is part of your world, like it or not. 

You can pretend that you're isolated from it, but unless you've found a way to produce 100% of what you need to include medical and utilities and keep paying your taxes at the same time, you're in this too. That government you speak of is going to want/need to make up those revenues somewhere. 

Who do you think produces the "stuff" that these folks buy? 

When Ford shuts down an assembly line who do you think suffers? 

The prosperous? 

Nope, dumped that stock a while back. 

What exactly do you think happens when folks stop buying lattes and eating out in restaurants? The owners of those businesses keep the employees on out of the kindness of their hearts? Nope, they let them go. 

What's going to happen to the truck drivers when there's little need to ship the goofy products some people buy, because no one is buying them? 

Seriously, who do you think really suffers when folks stop buying in a consumer based economy like ours? 

The prosperous? 

Most of them simply cut back a little and change their investment strategies. 

Chuck


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## fretti (Jun 30, 2007)

ladybug said:


> ... I take my vacations in my garden


Same here! When I take time off, people ask me where I'm going. "Home Depot, Lowe's, a nursery or two - and my garden!"


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## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

I think that these stories are very similar to the ones released about the mortgage crisis. They make a big deal about these people who really aren't all that bad off. It does two different things. It does some other things too, but these are the main ones to me.

1) It makes it look like things aren't that bad if a person doing without body wash or whatever is big news.

2) It makes those people who really are doing without resent the people who are having to give up what we consider trivial luxuries. It creates division.

That's just my take on it, but I think it is why we keep hearing about the people who refinanced their mortgage to go on vacation after vacation and now will lose their house. And it explains why this is considered a news story.

Kayleigh


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Chuck R. said:


> I've got some bad news for you, "their" world is part of your world, like it or not.
> 
> You can pretend that you're isolated from it, but unless you've found a way to produce 100% of what you need to include medical and utilities and keep paying your taxes at the same time, you're in this too. That government you speak of is going to want/need to make up those revenues somewhere.
> 
> ...


It's all a matter of insulation. I think, for the most part, we'll do better than the average as the whole ball of yarn comes apart.

No, nobody is 100% self-sufficient, but if I'm 80% and you're 80% and your 80% covers my 20% and vice versa, then we got ourselves something to talk about, now don't we?

Those latte-sipping clowns who believe hardship is doing without your weekly pedicure ... they ain't even got 2%.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Ernie said:


> It's all a matter of insulation. I think, for the most part, we'll do better than the average as the whole ball of yarn comes apart.
> 
> No, nobody is 100% self-sufficient, but if I'm 80% and you're 80% and your 80% covers my 20% and vice versa, then we got ourselves something to talk about, now don't we?
> 
> Those latte-sipping clowns who believe hardship is doing without your weekly pedicure ... they ain't even got 2%.


I should just let this go, but...

How much of the stuff you've carted off or bartered was bought for full price by someone? How much of OUR lifestyle is a result of the cast offs or poor decisions of the folks who can absorb it better than I (or you) can?

I know I personally do better and am able to build the things I want to around the 'stead when others are doing well.

And honestly, if things get bad enough I won't have the internet or probably ever talk to you again because you live hundreds of miles from me. (and vice-versa)

And unfortunately the way things work in the real world is that most communities don't have large diverse homestead communities, but depend on those around us, affluent and otherwise.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Hrm. There's going to be affluence in any community. "Wherever two or more are gathered ... one of them will want to be in charge." I think that's the way the old verse goes. It may just be the guy with the most cows, or it may be an organized military force. Who can tell what that future holds?

A lot of the things that you and I still need are connected to the grid, but from my historical readings, it always seems as if the yeoman class make it through whatever revolution, plague, earthquake, or invasion has come their way. 

All I've really got to do, when it boils down to it, is put enough calories in my family to maintain everyone's proper body temperature. I'm getting to the point now where that doesn't depend so much on the industrial world. I'm going to need hay, seed, and outbreeding to keep up my flocks and herds. Those are the things I worry about acquiring when the grid shuts down ... not much else these days.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

Man, I must really be getting jaded. I'm starting to find the Schadenfreude in some of these threads really unsettling.

Why do any of you care how others spend their money? I know I have gone off about people spending way beyond their means in this forum, but if someone makes more money than you do, do you really care if they buy expensive soap?

I'm with Seedspreader... we (DH & I) do better and make more money when others are doing well, too. When their budget gets so tight they can't afford the little luxuries in life, it affects my bottom line, too.

Not everyone is cut out to raise pigs and chickens. Sure, it would make people a little more responsible if they learned to do for themselves a little more, but last time I checked, America was all about the "pursuit of happiness" whatever that should mean to each individual.

I CHOOSE to live simply. I CHOOSE to grow my own food. I CHOOSE to live as green as I can comfortably, but I also CHOOSE to travel and take cruises. Living simply and saving money on one thing helps me be able to travel and afford to see other parts of the world. Am I living beyond my means? No. Did I have to cancel several trips this year because of fuel prices? Yes, I did. Does that humble me or somehow make me a martyr for the cause of living simply?

If you're doing without because you CHOOSE to, then you should not be affected by these news stories. If you are doing without because that's all you can do, then be proud of what you do and happy with who you are and don't worry about someone else who can afford a $15.00 manicure every week. Maybe they need the manicure because they aren't as self assured or as confident as you are. Maybe they're just helping support the little manicurist who is barely getting by. Whatever the case, they are contributing to the economy and helping keep someone else in a job so they can feed their family.

[/rant]

Edit to capitalize Schadenfreude for Seedspreader.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Schadenfreude should always be capitalized.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

seedspreader said:


> Schadenfreude should always be capitalized.


Noted. :cowboy:


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

I like "Roman Holiday" myself.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

seedspreader said:


> I like "Roman Holiday" myself.



Works equally as well, yet is a bit harder for someone who is not familiar with the term to find the source and definition. IMO of course.

Lord Byron is a favorite of mine.


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## stranger (Feb 24, 2008)

Ohio Rusty said:


> People have more money than sense in this country. They complain about the high costs, yet spend, spend, spend like there is no tomorrow. They don't prep, or save, or even look a month or a year ahead as to what is really coming. Just to qualify my statement, I'll use the latest release movies as an example. Of the last 5 movies releases in the last several months, Wall-E has gossed 62 million, Wanted has grossed 51 Million, Get Smart has grossed 77 million, Kung Fu panda has grossed 179 million, and Indiana Jones has grossed a whopping 300 million !!
> With people able to spend millions upon millions for entertainment, it sure doesn't look like anyone is going thru any hardships, nor do they look like they are hedging against any future disasters .....
> Ohio Rusty ><>


 I don't go to movies but looking at the gross and then thinking that there are about 300 million plus people in the US, the gross isn't really that much, just think how much the gross would be if half of the people went.
you're right though, people don't have a clue about what's comming down the road and many are in for a real shock. many are going to be standing in a food line(if there are any) wondering why they lived so high and from pay ck to pay ck enjoying every minute of it.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

JGex said:


> Man, I must really be getting jaded. I'm starting to find the Schadenfreude in some of these threads really unsettling.
> 
> Why do any of you care how others spend their money? I know I have gone off about people spending way beyond their means in this forum, but if someone makes more money than you do, do you really care if they buy expensive soap?
> 
> ...


BRAVO! Exactly....


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

The question is not whether we want others to do well or not. I think most of us _want_ them to do well, though I do have to suppress a little joyful glee in my heart at seeing the materialistic humbled. 

The question, and the topic, is that here is some further evidence that we are living in the last days of the Roman Empire. Whether many luxury items are now disappearing due to availability or pricing is moot, now that they are actually disappearing. Things are going to keep right on disappearing and it'll stop being amusing when it starts being beans and rice instead of just manicures and summer beach vacations.

Ever watch a pond dry up over the course of a few months? First it's barely noticable. Just a little more dried mud at the edges than you remember. Pretty soon you're seeing stumps and logs that you didn't know were there, often decorated with fancy fishing lure. For the fish in the pond, life is getting more and more desperate while this happens. The predator fish find life easier for awhile, as their hunting gets easier. The prey fish suffer right up to the end. And the end usually does come, unless the rain starts to fall again. A small mudhole with water you could just about jump across, crowded with a few dying, gasping fish. Baked mud strewn with bones where the land predators have dragged the bodies around. It's the most desolate, horrifying thing that I've ever seen, more so because it happens in slow motion.

That's what we have here. A drought. We're living on reserves and waiting for the next big form of energy to come along. We may open up a few new oil fields here and there, but in terms of consumption they won't last us more than 10-15 years at our present rates, and now there's a lot more competition for them as well. Nobody is really in doubt that oil is going to top $200 per barrel in the next couple of years. The _absolute best_ any of us can hope for is to push the impending crisis far enough away that we won't have to deal with it in our own lifetime. It'll be a crisis for our children, or our children's children.

Much of my work is centered around making my farm and family self-sufficient because I like to do so and find comfort in knowing I can provide. There's a deeper reason though. I have four sons. It is a parent's responsibility to teach their children how to thrive in the world in which they inherit. My children need to know how to think and farm in a self-sufficient manner, because I believe the world they will inherit is going to more closely resemble 1840 than our world does today. You could consider our farm nothing more than one big training academy, only with potatoes.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

one of the late shows did a comedy piece on folks in beverly hills not being able to afford things like plastic surgery and botox injections. oh, the humanity! "i haven't had a botox injection for 6 months!" LOL


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Ernie said:


> We're living on reserves and waiting for the next big form of energy to come along. We may open up a few new oil fields here and there, but in terms of consumption they won't last us more than 10-15 years at our present rates, and now there's a lot more competition for them as well.
> 
> My children need to know how to think and farm in a self-sufficient manner, because I believe the world they will inherit is going to more closely resemble 1840 than our world does today. You could consider our farm nothing more than one big training academy, only with potatoes.


While I do applaud your efforts to raise your sons to be self sufficient, I can't see our world going back to the 1840s. I also think there are basically unlimited sources of oil in the world. But all that aside, this recession/depression/World food shortage period will be a good eye opener. I think we'll see more effort put on developing new sources of energy. I just read an article that stated that even after 40 years of development, solar panels are still only 20% effective. And it's ridiculous that cars don't get 100 mpg. Nuclear energy is cheap and efficient, and safe when properly managed.

But I read this article today that is uplifting. If we can keep the greenies from stopping the development, we've got unbelievably large stores of oil in our own country. If we stopped depending on foreign oil, and cut out all the other foreign imports, we'd be a lot better off. And the Saudi, who have nothing else but their oil to offer the world, would lower the price to a reasonable level again if nobody was buying it.



> FOXNews.com
> Oil Making 'Overnight Millionaires' in North Dakota
> 
> Tuesday , July 01, 2008
> ...


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

JGex said:


> Man, I must really be getting jaded. I'm starting to find the Schadenfreude in some of these threads really unsettling.
> 
> Why do any of you care how others spend their money? I know I have gone off about people spending way beyond their means in this forum, but if someone makes more money than you do, do you really care if they buy expensive soap?
> 
> ...


IMHO it isn't the fact that some have and have not. It is the fact that some that have seem to use more than what is NEEDED from precious world resources. Yes the manicurist would be unemployed if the haves suddenly had not.

Maybe I am under the delusion that if the haves decided to have a bit less the have nots could have a bit more, sort of even the playing field. Not from jealousy of the have nots but from compassion from the haves.

The same manicurist would be put to better use on something like habitat for humanity. The haves do not NEED a Mcmansion. Perhaps said Mcmansions materials for construction could be split into two more modest dwellings. I am not being literal, I am illustrating a point.

The world only has so many resources on it, this very minute. Some people just tend to get way more cookies out of the jar than others. Some people are lucky for crumbs.

People will argue that it isn't fair, if some people work hard and others don't. Why should a doctor who went to school for ever get perks the same as the unemployed video game junkie. That is a narrow view because laziness is a condition set up through a culture with too many indulgences.

In poorer nations being lazy is NOT an option. Work is a part of survival be it a doctor or herdsman. Not all herdsman can afford or get into medical school so why should they be penalized for having not? 

There are always those who take so they may have which is evil. If people were not so self absorbed they may relaize that 

1. That manicure means nothing, it is superficial
2. The chemicals from said manicure are toxic and un natural
3. The cost from that manicure could feed a poor family
4. That manicure will never make that person or the world a better place

Good for them that they have a Mcmansion with a view that does not overlook a shanty town. I have seen how the have nots live, that is why in spite of the fact that I have some, I try to have less. That is just the decent thing to do.


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## AR Transplant (Mar 20, 2004)

This is when it hit home for me. About 20 years ago my husband was about to lose his job. I was a stay at home mom and it was bad. I called a friend of mine to tell her about it and this is what she said. " I know exactly how you feel, my housekeeper didn't show today and I don't know what I am going to do." 

sad thing, she was serious. Good thing, her husband got fired later on and she "got" it. Now she is much more compassionate.

ar


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

hintonlady said:


> IMHO it isn't the fact that some have and have not. It is the fact that some that have seem to use more than what is NEEDED from precious world resources. Yes the manicurist would be unemployed if the haves suddenly had not.
> 
> Maybe I am under the delusion that if the haves decided to have a bit less the have nots could have a bit more, sort of even the playing field. Not from jealousy of the have nots but from compassion from the haves.
> 
> ...


Iâve always gone by the premise that life isnât fair, and nobody owes you a thing. You play the cards youâve been dealt, as best you can play them.

In a âperfectâ world what you suggest may have merit, but in the real world we live in where some believe they are entitled by their mere existence, itâs not going to happen. Why should I or anybody work harder or smarter when the fruits of my labor will be shared with those that do not produce as much or as well? 

What you describe is the perfect version of communism and from what Iâve seen that ideology has been failing since its inception. 

Who gets to decide what or how much I âneedâ you, the government, or my neighbors?

Chuck


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Chuck R. said:


> Iâve always gone by the premise that life isnât fair, and nobody owes you a thing. You play the cards youâve been dealt, as best you can play them.
> 
> *My Father started teaching me that mantra at a very young age. I used to HATE it for 18 years. Then I grew up and realized he was right. There is wisdom in that. That does not mean I must accept limitations imposed by self or others. That does not mean I am willing to let go of a hope. Isnât that what started this once great nation?*
> 
> ...


I may have little girl fantasies about a perfect world. I know one thing for certain, I do not like âyourâ/their imperfect world and have chosen to do my best to NOT be a part of the problem by opting out and becoming a homesteader. 

I do whatever small things I can, I am not a saint. My lifestyle is as much for pleasure as it is a sociopolitical statement. I wage a war of principle by staging a peaceful protest and trying to lead by example.

Yes, life is unfair. Yes I have altruistic ideals. I may falter someday, if I do it will be with head held high and on my own terms, not by what is subjected and dictated to me but by honor. There is no honor in watching someone suffer whilst I live in comfort.

Meanwhile I enjoy watching the foolish folly of the top of the heap as they try to claw their way to safety on the stack of drowning rats on our global ship. I only give empathy to calloused hands not calloused hearts.

The end.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

p.s. I am _listening_ to you Chuck.

Thank you for the challenge/stimulation.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

When it comes to efforts or abilities, in the end it really doesnât matter does it? 

Itâs the results that count. If the ends donât justify the means, what does? (Sorry, Edward Abby quote)

In real life there are no âextra pointsâ for trying hard, just as there are sometimes no penalties for screwing up. Thatâs the lifeâs not fair part. 

A whole lot of things make better âsenseâ with a good solid grasp of supply and demand economics. Doctors make more than farmers because it is generally more difficult to become, and remain a doctor. They most likely got to be doctors because somewhere in their family line somebody worked their butt off to provide them the opportunity. Major league baseball players make more than doctors because even fewer have the talent to become one. 

Hope is a good thing, right up until you spend more time hoping than doing while blowing all your money on the lotto. 

Chuck


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

hintonlady said:


> p.s. I am _listening_ to you Chuck.
> 
> Thank you for the challenge/stimulation.


Same here, enjoying the discussion.

Chuck


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

TexasArtist said:


> but Rusty, don't you understand one lady in that article had to switch from her designer liquad soap to bar soap...........where's your compassion man:bash:


If she learned how to make it herself, she'd probably save a bundle. She really doesn't need to give it up . . . unless she's one of those women who don't know the difference between a pot and a skillet.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Chuck R. said:


> When it comes to efforts or abilities, in the end it really doesnât matter does it?
> 
> *Not unless you are a parent of a down syndrome kid who can only empty trash at a fast food place. Flash forward to post SHTF.......not my kid but unless I were in danger of starving myself, I would be glad to let them eat a few more beans than they could pick. Right now we CAN afford some empathy. If it were an ex con making up a line about sun allergies....well he better get pretty darned sick before he gets a day off before everyone else.*
> 
> ...


It's all a big stinky crock of goo IMHO no matter what side you are on. I look outside beyond the confines of my home and see a very ugly place with a few oasis of light to tempt us forward. I lost my ignorance is bliss pills.

Life isn't fair.....which is more than likely why the irony of a woman having trouble with manicures and vacations is so dang hysterical too me.

So I'm twisted like that......:shrug: I also happen to laugh at my own troubles, just to make it FAIR. LOL


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

A farm can be bought with money alone, a medical degree usually cannot. The number of farmers in the system combined with their productivity work to set their income. I could in theory buy some more land, hire a guy to manage it, (cause I donât know crap about farming) and become a farmer for about what a medical degree would cost, however regardless of money Iâm not getting into medical school anytime soon. 

As for the baseball player, itâs not about the ability to live without either one; again itâs about supply and demand. 

If we can agree that a âthingâ is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it. Whether or not you or I feel a farmer is more important than a baseball player is immaterial. The fact remains that there are people willing to pay to watch baseball, and there are apparently fewer individuals with the required skills to become a professional baseball players than there are with the knowledge and assets to be farmers. Just as there are fewer CEOs than there are assembly line workers, and generally the difference in compensation reflects it. 

I try not to get wrapped up in the fairness of it, just like I donât worry about the guy with the nicer car, or bigger house. Iâve got enough to do watching my own lane. I do truly believe that in most cases we get back what we put in, in others it is bad luck, and some folks should have zigged instead of zagged, or chose A instead of B. 

Chuck


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Chuck R. said:


> A farm can be bought with money alone, a medical degree usually cannot. The number of farmers in the system combined with their productivity work to set their income. I could in theory buy some more land, hire a guy to manage it, (cause I donât know crap about farming) and become a farmer for about what a medical degree would cost, however regardless of money Iâm not getting into medical school anytime soon.
> 
> *Oh Chuck, *shakes head* Money pays for the education to be a doctor. Sure talent is born but skill is taught, can be taught to many. It is too hard to explain the farm income situation but I'll try as briefly as possible.
> 
> ...


my opinion means as much as an ants, I know this and am fine with it. I just wish that it didn't have to be such an ugly world. It is what it is, you are right, play the cards you're dealt. Unless you decide to fold and walk away like I did. I'm not much into chance and fate too much of a control freak for that. 

I could have been this or could have been that.......right here, right now in this very moment I am living my dream. NO amount of money and fancy soap could buy that. 

I got a bit riled up when a couple folks, my pals, made it seem like laughing at manicure lady was wrong because of all the helpless people it affects. That was always in my mind.....I think that is clear now, I also think manicure lady got a taste of reality and it didn't taste good.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

We live in a fallen world, that's for sure. Not much to to do about it but try and keep our own souls intact.

I do not see a problem with poking a little fun at these people. It's the ant and the grasshopper all over again. Their houses are of straw and wood and ours are (hopefully) of brick, now that the big bad wolf has come. Now all that remains is the testing.

The world is full of superfluous people, I feel. Accountants, hairdressers, computer consultants, software engineers ... the list goes on and on. All of them painted with the thin veneer of civilization. What's going to happen when that veneer gets stripped back? Who will protect them from the wolves when they've successfully disarmed all the scary men with guns on the ramparts standing guard? I can't imagine the horror I would feel in their shoes when I suddenly had it make clear to me that all of that was going to end.

I'm typing this with dirt under my fingernails from the garden, manure on my pants from a sick calf, and an aching back from an evening spent stacking straw bales. I guess I _could_ have went to Starbucks instead, had a nice latte with double non-fat foam, drove a BMW up and down in the fast lane and stopped by Nordstroms to buy some kitchen gadget I'll never use because I always order out ... except if I lived that lifestyle then I wouldn't have a garden, a cow, or straw to provide bedding for the livestock throughout the winter.


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

> Life is a comedy for those who think... and a tragedy for those who feel.
> -- Horace Walpole


There's enough real problems in the world, and people enduring real hardship and injustice, that I can't do much but laugh at those that are wrapped around the axle on trivial ego pursuits like fancy bath gels.

I believe before this is all done, there will be plenty more real pain to go around, and it won't be apportioned to the people that caused this mess either. I'll save my compassion for those whom I feel truly deserve it.

The fact is during the boom, the benefits weren't spread equally, and some people were hurt. Greenspan kept interest rates artificially low, which caused the real estate bubble. Many senior citizens invest in CDs as they can't take the volatility of the stock market, so they were hurt by low rates as they rolled over CDs. As housing went up, so did property taxes, again hurting many people on fixed incomes, or with jobs that didn't have nice wage appreciation. Probably many homesteader's were competing with developers for land, and hence paying a higher price, altho perhaps at a lower interest rate. And many renters faced escalating rents too. The fact is, when the gov't plays games that give a benefit to some group, some other group suffers. Who suffers isn't always immediately obvious, and they're often not politically powerful, but someone is disadvantaged.

Now it looks like the boom is over, and some of the ones that benefited from the boom are starting to realize it won't last forever. Some of the people that were hurt before will do better, and some will be hurt again. And some will benefit both ways.

I would prefer that the gov't didn't play these games. I voted in the primary for a presidential candidate who feels likewise, and I'll do a write-ballot for that same candidate this fall. But the gov't does play these games, and most of the population urges them on, so I do my best to learn to play "financial self defense" to minimize the effect on me. 

--sgl


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## CJ (May 10, 2002)

Down here in little ole' Russellville AR, a smallish town of 25k, there's this huge and very successful Honda Sports dealer (motorcycles, jet skis, ATV's,e tc). The owner has a beautiful McMansion, drives a Hummer, has boats, bikes, jet skis, every toy you can think of.

Exactly the profile that's being criticized. And yet, he employs countless people in this town. In my book, I find that something to admire. If he should "get what's coming to him" think of all the "everyday folks" that are going to lose their jobs.

It used to be, America was the place to be if you wanted to make your way in the world, have a chance at earning a fortune, and to live a dream. Now if you succeed, you're an evil person and you owe at least 1/2 of everything you've worked your ass off for to those haven't done so well.

Why can't we accept that it takes all types to make our world work in harmony? We can't all be rich, and we can't all be poor.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

The same could be said for the people who hire migrant farm workers. 

Those folks work their arses off and get nowhere. 

I know we all can't be rich. Heck, plenty can't even eat forget about affording to be poor.


This dealer guy....if times got hard how many of his toys would he be willing to sacrifice before he just decided to lay someone off because business was slow?

I don't know the guy so can't rightly say. Maybe he is cool but seriously, I know plenty of folks who employ locals and townies out of the "kindness" of their heart and treat the people like dirt. My guess is that the % of wealthy people who have an awareness of the world and those below them is far outweighed by enron types who would rob an old lady blind.

Wealth is not evil, greed is evil...there is a huge difference. Bill gates can't give his dough away fast enough, now that is class!! I bet his lady still uses all her foo foo designer stuff too, let her eat cake!!


edited to add: forgive me if I seem snotty, I don't mean to. About all types to make the world work in harmony.......I'm looking around and not seeing a lot of world harmony, that is why I have my wealth gripe in the first place.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

If it weren't for the well off, where would I be? All of my 'pocket money' comes from people better off than me (performing services they can't). They pay my exorbitant rates. They give me outrageously expensive things that a poor person could never afford to (last week, ~1500$ worth of expensive store bought cages, with all the accoutrements) part with. And who would donate all of those fancy clothes to the goody store? Without the rich, no more 'bag sales'...

I work for the poor, too. But it's hard to charge someone 30$/hour to work on their little home repair, when I know they're not bringing home, after taxes, 50$/day. I figure it's good for the karma... equalizing out my badnesses... But, working for po' folks doesn't make my yacht payments. Found my yacht last month on Craigslist, but didn't have the money... now I have the money and it's not there......

I long to join the idle rich crowd....:angel:


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Ernie's reference to . .starbucks.

Had to do a large LOL when the *story* on the news tonight was about starbucks closing MANY shops................

He he he . . . .there would be hope that some *folks* would realize that a name and a big price tag do not make a cup of coffee any better...............

and how will a starbucks fair during a depression . . .???


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

hintonlady said:


> IMHO it isn't the fact that some have and have not. It is the fact that some that have seem to use more than what is NEEDED from precious world resources. Yes the manicurist would be unemployed if the haves suddenly had not.
> 
> Maybe I am under the delusion that if the haves decided to have a bit less the have nots could have a bit more, sort of even the playing field. Not from jealousy of the have nots but from compassion from the haves.


HintonLady, I know you can take my posts as they are intended and not freak out on me, so I'm going to answer candidly:

Grrl, you be sounding almost like a socialist with the above! Yes, if the "wealth" were spread more evenly, the have nots WOULD have a bit more and the haves would probably not really notice their losses. Evening the playing field would even bring some out of "poverty" and into a working class.



> The same manicurist would be put to better use on something like habitat for humanity. The haves do not NEED a Mcmansion. Perhaps said Mcmansions materials for construction could be split into two more modest dwellings. I am not being literal, I am illustrating a point.


Well, maybe manicurist was the wrong profession to choose.... how about massage therapist? Certainly in a society with as many people as we have, there is room for artist, manicurist, farmer, massage therapist, butcher, etc. A true civilization has many people who specialize in different professions. Certainly in a time like the Middle Ages, it is narrowed down to the important stuff like brewer, carpenter, blacksmith, butcher, farmer, but we've gone far past that in this day and age.

I work my fingers in the dirt and by gollie, a $15.00 manicure seems like money well spent after breaking all of my nails and cracking all of my cuticles. I WANT a manicurist in my village. And an acupuncturist and chiropractor and massager therapist. And when the work is all done, I want to go see a band rip it up and dance my grits off.



> The world only has so many resources on it, this very minute. Some people just tend to get way more cookies out of the jar than others. Some people are lucky for crumbs.
> 
> People will argue that it isn't fair, if some people work hard and others don't. Why should a doctor who went to school for ever get perks the same as the unemployed video game junkie. That is a narrow view because laziness is a condition set up through a culture with too many indulgences.


I feel ya on this.... yes, we are bleeding Mother Earth for all she's got right now. And soon enough, we're going to get the bill.

Life has never been "fair." People keep it that way. Look at the people on this very board who would let their fellow American suck it because those people feel like their fellow American isn't contributing to society. Heck, look at the woman who laid on the Emergency Room floor dead for an hour before anyone did anything. We are apathetic and even more so, judgmental. When we feel someone isn't contributing, we are willing to let them suffer the consequences. 

I am no different. I have no desire to supply lazy family members with the fruits of our gardening labor. 



> In poorer nations being lazy is NOT an option. Work is a part of survival be it a doctor or herdsman. Not all herdsman can afford or get into medical school so why should they be penalized for having not?


I wish I could get you to watch the Anthony Bourdain Namibia episode. Those people are so poor and so lazy they can't figure out how to cook an egg except to break it open on the dirt and ash of the fire. And they have lived that way for generations. 



> There are always those who take so they may have which is evil. If people were not so self absorbed they may relaize that
> 
> 1. That manicure means nothing, it is superficial
> 2. The chemicals from said manicure are toxic and un natural
> ...


Well, I feel....

1. The manicure makes me feel good
2. you can use natural emolients and oils that are not harmful to the environment
3. again, why am I paying for someone else? 
4. no, but, see #1

I don't always "approve" of irresponsible spending, but ya know, I EARN my money and who is anyone else to tell me how to spend it? I donate to several charities throughout the year and act responsibly in how I live. If I want to buy a $700.00 bicycle, then how dare someone look at me and tell me I am not thinking of those who can't afford one of the same?

No easy answers here, but I do know that I work hard for my money. How I spend it is my bidness. I make sure that I dole it out in taxes and donations, but if I want to get a pedicure or color my hair, then I feel I have the right to do so.

:angel:


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

I think it's sad that people honestly consider those hardships. What will happen to them when the really hard times arrive? For me hardship is having to choose between paying the electric bill or buying gas. 

I can't even imagine what it would be like to go on vacation to Disney World. I've never done that so I won't miss it. People who are used to that lifestyle have a hard road ahead of them.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

VERBOSE as usual, good story though

The truth is out I am a socialist, was raised a socialist, no joke. Iâm not one of those commie pinkos mind you......maybe there is a difference maybe there isnât. That debate is as old as Mcdonalds 


At an impressionable age my pseudo hippy parents joined a commune type set up _overseas_. This was _not a hippy type set up_, work actually got done, LOL. 

There were 300 members of this community all comprised of infant through long retired seniors. There were strong workers, there was a woman with a brain injury whose job was to fill salt and pepper shakers in the communal dining hall. (the injury came from shrapnel lodged in her dome, she was wearing a uniform when it happened)

The community owned avocado orchards, cotton fields, commercial fish ponds, commercial dairy, small furniture factory and a small cotton mill. Everyone worked and jobs varied. People did have opportunities to change jobs from burn out or just stick with what they liked. We all shared a community meal prepared by some workers whose laundry was washed by other workers whose children were watched by even other workers. It was quite literally a sustainable community.

Everyone was an extended family, children were raised in similar age groups to live in the kids house as a group around 11 years old. This kid house was central in the community. Children could run free, even after the evening meals and were safe. (well behaved too, who would mess up with 100 âauntsâ who can give you a talking too?) life was so harmonious that every day after the dinner meal the adults could go to the community coffee shop above the community library to just relax and chat. This was also down a small lane from the community doctors station (he was paid to visit but we had a nurse in residence). We also had a community canteen where one could decide if they wanted a certain fancy shampoo or maybe cheap shampoo and a chocolate bar instead with their MODEST allowance.

We had community vehicles that could be checked out, people actually rarely did so though. There was no reason to leave unless you were restless. We also had a community Olympic sized pool, occasional parties and movies or roller skates brought en mass for a special event in the cleared dining hall. Some people did have more than others but it was based on age and time in life years to save up. IE: an older couple who had worked longer could possibly afford to save for that what not with their allowance where a newly married couple might have a more bare home. Actual seniority was what perks were based on not on who was more important because of their job.

We were all modestly comfortable, had small homes. That was okay because we were rarely there anyway. between work and community homes were not often used unless some privacy was in order or to sleep. Yes, some people may have had personality conflicts but it was all handled appropriately. NO violence was ever tolerated. Iâm talking deep rooted community where everyone is committed to one another and a common goal. Iâm not talking about urban dwelling community where many people do not even know their neighbors name.

My parents were relaxed in this place. We werenât rich but we had not a single care in the world. I was the happiest I ever have been in my life. No stress, commutes were on a bike......peace. Everyone was a whole, if we were to starve we would have done it together, if we were to gain extra wealth it would go to a community oriented upgrade.

Yes, I am a socialist. I have lived on both sides of the spectrum.......The âcommunityâ in most of our nation is lacking in cohesiveness, compassion, heart and soul. So here I sit, missing the good ole days and shaking my head.....on the commune if someone wanted a manicure they could have one, thing is though no one actually wanted one. I imagine if they did they could do it themselves or sincerely close sister friends could give each other a manicure and laugh about "that cow" and how it refused to go into the parlor that day.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Well now... this has been an intriguing thread.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Well, this does explain many things.

I do imagin if that is what you grew up with, hintonlady, that capitalism as practiced in the US is quite a change. And is this lovely socialist compound still in existance? and why would you leave if it was that good? And what happened to those that sat on their butts due to lack of motivation or inclination to work?

I really am curious as to how these things were handled and why you'd leave.

Angie


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

AngieM2 said:


> Well, this does explain many things.
> 
> I do imagin if that is what you grew up with, hintonlady, that capitalism as practiced in the US is quite a change. And is this lovely socialist compound still in existance? and why would you leave if it was that good? And what happened to those that sat on their butts due to lack of motivation or inclination to work?
> 
> ...



I was born in the US and spent the majority of my life here. Just hard to escape dreams of my own utopian paradise.

Yes, it is still in existance as are many like them. They all have their own unique style. Only problem is that the newer types are more like intentional communities with looser ties. Nice, but not the same.

HOWEVER, when we were leaving the community was upgrading and actually getting a phone line installed to the homes.....I fear that was probably a move in the wrong direction....the growth of the keeping up with the joneses movement is spreading like a cancer. (that was 20 something years ago)

I had to leave. My dear wonderful Dad (heavy on the sarcasm here) had a situation in which he was asked to leave but my Mother and I could stay. you can guess how it ended.

Strangely enough no one sat on their butts so no one had to be dealt with. There wasn't a constant western style stress level. In fact because of the way it was many people had nap time mid day between short shifts. Many jobs were not as time consuming as the typical western 9 to 5 kind of thing. People were also allowed to choose jobs they loved and they worked in groups. Never remember any lazy folks, honestly. Even if there had been there would have been the tsk tsk of the old ladies, nobody would want to mess with that, LOL.

I didn't leave willingly. There is a special place in my heart for that place and for many adult years I planned on returning with my son. Going overseas with basic needs in tow is not cheap. 

Then I met and fell in love with a SW. IL farm boy, I belong to his clan and farm now, the rest is my history............


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Thank you for explaining.

It is hard to leave (physically and mentally) something you remember with love.

Angie


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

AngieM2 said:


> It is hard to leave (physically and mentally) something you remember with love.
> Angie



Yes, now I can take my altruistic ideals of fairness and a perfect world and spread them like a plague amongst the populace of the âmachineâ. Someday not far from now we will vanquish not only world hunger, war and mismatched bathroom towels but will also destroy surprise flatulence and greed itself.

Soon my comrades of kindness will be gently persuading you over to our way of thinking, then my plan will be complete. We will all go tip toeing through fields of plenty and sing songs of joy. 

Muah ha ha ha....*hack* 

(I watch too many cartoons)


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

HintonLady, can I ask why you DID leave? If I found a place like that I'd never leave except in a body bag. Seriously, that sounds like heaven on earth!

I was *very* attracted to communal living as a teen and young adult, and would have tried it if I had found the right place. But all the examples I knew of were self limiting and always failed because of personality conflicts and unfair labor division. The only example I can find these days of a working, successful commune is: 

http:www/thefarm.org

And in my middle age, having at one time worked two and three jobs and been poor and hungry, and having arrived at UMC, and also having lived in Socialist countries, I am, alas, a Republican. And decidedly anti-socialist.

But I'm secretly interested in more stories of your experiences!


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

hintonlady said:


> The truth is out I am a socialist, was raised a socialist, no joke. Iâm not one of those commie pinkos mind you......maybe there is a difference maybe there isnât.


Your childhood community sounds good on the surface, but I can see where a lot of problems could be arise. I'm interested in how some problems were handled. I realize you were a child and may not have a lot of information about how situations were handled but please share as much as you can. 

You said there was a nurse in residence. How much did she have to pay for her education? Did she still have education loans to repay? Did she work in the âoutside worldâ to pay them off before she joined the community? Did the community pay them for her in exchange for her service there? What if the community paid for someoneâs education, then the person left the community? The same could come up with other professions or was everyone there a laborer with no higher education? 

What about retirement? What happens if the community eventually becomes mostly elderly people who canât continue to work and some might have high medical costs? Do the few young people work double shifts to support the elderly? Do the elderly have to leave or go without meds they might need? Iâm interested in how that situation would be handled.

If someone joined the community and had lots of material things were they expected to give them up or share with everyone? What if a family had a cabin at the lake, jet skies, boat, and other high dollar toys, were they required to either sell them or let others use them? What if one family liked chicken while another family liked steak? Did everyone have to eat the same? What about special diets or allergies? I can see where there could be jealousies if some have more material possessions than others or some being expected to give up their stuff so others wouldnât covet it.

Iâm glad you liked it and have fond memories of that lifestyle, but I'm having trouble envisioning everyone being happy and satisfied equally when some may have had greater need than others. 

I can see how someone who does very little work would enjoy sharing in the profits of someone who works hard, but that isn't fair to the hard workers. How did they handle those types of situations? Did they ban people who were not hard workers? 

Iâm not trying to run down your community or your memory of it, but itâs possible that as a child you might not have known about some problems that were handled by adults. I have very fond memories of my childhood, but my father has totally different memories of those years. To him they were years of hard struggle, for me they were carefree years of enjoyment.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

I was only 11 and had to leave with my parents.

I have an old book from the early 70âs about the farm, not sure if itâs the same place. Have to look it up. I am jazzed if it is them and they made it, always wondered.

As far as other experiences....one thing that was obvious is some low level cliques. These were all in a non threatening manner. The single 20 somethings tended to hang out and the retiree age group didnât have much in common with them. Some jobs were a tad segregated too. IE: My dad and a few guys worked the fish ponds. Some of those guys had a joke of a black market where they traded fish for steak for themselves. It was taboo but NO ONE wanted fish duty so people mostly left the rowdy bunch to themselves and didnât care much anyway. Most they got was a tsk tsk. (and a be quiet over there, were trying to sleep, when the BBQ got a little noisy) one lady who ran the dining hall pantry had a few perks like extra treats, she also isolated herself due to this. There were still personality conflicts but people just didnât get too worked up about it.

You must understand it was a large extended âfamilyâ. 95% of the members were born into the community. As the industry grew and need for workers went up then new outsiders were invited for a trial period. After a year assuming they fit in the members voted on allowing permanent status. There was a sort of council with a leader but it was very casual. It was a simplified ruling body that saw to the smooth running of things and enforcement of easily followed rules. People mostly behaved themselves and didnât need any reminding. if you messed up you probably got a talking to on the side by an Uncle type who knew you from when you were a kid. Due to the lack of stress and casual work environment people didnât find stupid stuff like road rage, divorce, bickering etc. to bother with. People were content and happy.......life on a beach. lots of love and sharing, in a normal way, âcousinsâ everywhere. A wedding or birth was celebrated by all, and a very simple, dress casual, lots of laughter kind of gathering.

As for the nurse. I have to say I am not really sure. I imagine she made some sort of commitment to the community. I think she also worked outside part time and contributed to the group. She was born into the group so her level of commitment may not have been too much in question. I think the youth are encouraged to leave and explore before they decide to stay and settle down. The youth must decide it is the life they want, so education only enhances the community. I know of one other guy who worked off site, not sure what, they were also in the process of trying to find a life in the outside, time was given for them to get it all organized. He chose NOT to contribute his pay which was fine. The thing is everyone contributes their sweat one way or the other. One man was into computer programming. His job was to handle the computers in the factories. My dad doubled as the psychologist on site for the school aged kids. Higher education just wasnât needed, although it was a plus depending on what it was in, all needs were met with or without it. The nurse just saved cost of going to doctor off site for simple stuff. Also had a dentist visit on occasion.

Retirement. The land was paid for so seniors were welcome to take on smaller jobs and slowly ease into not working when they were physically unable to. They remained in their small house and basically only âcostâ food and nurse visits. Upon their death a new young couple could move up into their now empty, community owned house. housing was built from time to time. Singles were given 1 bedrooms, families got more, people did rotate based on stage of life/needs. As the group aged if not enough youth stayed new members were invited to join, upon full membership they could stay on till death. Of course invites were given to young singles or young families so they could contribute a fair share.

Everyone had a small allowance. Clothing, toiletries and goodies were provided onsite so one would have to budget but items were discounted and there were no other bills to worry about. There was always enough left to save to take a car to town and see a movie or to save up for some home gadget.

Material things were not expected to be shared if bought from individual allowances. It is up to the individual to use this modest stipend on soda, lots of shoes or to save up for a television. imagine it as life at chuck e cheese where they have the tickets you can earn prizes with. you can blow your tickets as fast as you get them on plastic junk or save them up to get the 1000 ticket prize. Everyone got the same amount of âticketsâ, it was up to them to do with them as they pleased. large income to the group from industry was used for improvements to either profit generating ventures or if all was well to group entertainment, like a new espresso maker in the adults only cafe.

There were no wealthy families, there were no jet skis, there were no cabins. if someone joined they were expected to go all in whether it be 5 bucks or 5 million. Share and share alike or just keep the cabin and move on, so to speak. Itâs the principle of the matter, not the dollar figure. The goal is for group happiness and improvement, not holding out for self benefit. Extra monies from a new member would possibly go to construction of new homes. Of course senior members got the new home and the new member started out in the basic size they needed. Then new member waits their turn like everyone else, jumping to the front because of cash would mess up the whole system. The understanding is that once joined up said member was there for life and would not NEED the money, so why should it matter? I presume a jet ski would have to be shared and considered community property wherein the original owner must check it out just like anyone else. The community would furnish the gas though...........

There were a couple choices to pick from at meals. It was like a cafeteria style. mostly made up of basics. lunch was a huge meal, dinner and breakfast were simple and humble. The menu changed for lunch everyday and rotated. Allergies were respected, just in case a little something extra could be made on the side if it was a NEED. If it was a want people had to use their allowance. no one coveted. People spent more time in evernings visiting over coffee and conversation. Television was something the kids did for an hour after school. The group dynamic circulated around being a social group in work and in play. Every evening was a big hang out unless someone needed quite and privacy. A small television would suffice.


Greater need was always addressed. Greater want was taboo. Slight difference. many different families growing up in close quarters for a couple generations, kids marrying another members kid when they grow up. I know it is hard to grasp but people really didnât care too much about material stuff. Yes, there was jealousy on occasion, even some infidelity but people were civilized about it and got over it, for the greater good of the group and community harmony. Drama was not introduced or it was quelled by the entire group very quickly. Nothing like 300 folks getting mad at you for being lazy, trust me.

PEER PRESSURE, in a GOOD way!

i am sure there were bad moments, these people are human. They just happened to escape a lot of the problems one faces when they

1. Live a block away from a grocery store and do not know their neighbor.
2. Hate their boss and job
3. Work so hard to survive they canât enjoy family or find time for them
4. Have no worries about traffic or bills.
etc. etc.

Itâs amazing how a truly happy and content life leads a person away from objects and closer to those they love. 

Yes, hard to imagine, that I think is unfortunate. Donât you too?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

It's interesting, Hintonlady, but I couldn't live like that. I can't hardly fit into a loose community NOW, much less a tighter community like that. Any sort of restriction or shackles on me just chafe too much. I don't mind talking to people, in fact I downright enjoy it, but having to depend on them for anything at all gets under my skin.

No matter how isolated I am, no matter how much room I have, sooner or later I start restlessly pacing up and down the fenceline like a wolf, dreaming of someplace yet more isolated.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Ernie said:


> It's interesting, Hintonlady, but I couldn't live like that. I can't hardly fit into a loose community NOW, much less a tighter community like that. Any sort of restriction or shackles on me just chafe too much. I don't mind talking to people, in fact I downright enjoy it, but having to depend on them for anything at all gets under my skin.
> 
> No matter how isolated I am, no matter how much room I have, sooner or later I start restlessly pacing up and down the fenceline like a wolf, dreaming of someplace yet more isolated.


Ernie,

I feel the same way from time to time. I just wish things could be different.

In my personal experience the lone wolf feelings are about a lack of trust in others because I have been let down and %$%^%^ over more times than I can count, even by those I considered close. 

Communities as I have seen them are filled with many oblivious and self centered people who would rather see you suffer than lift a finger, even if it doesn't cost them something.

Try getting a jump for your car in the middle of a busy parking lot in the middle of a city................yup, lone wolf moment there!!

I dream of the day when I was a little girl and the world still had the potential to NOT be an ugly place. Now I am not so sure.

I am as A social as they come, still somehow manage to have folks come after me like the pied piper in public. Never could figure that out. Every clerk I meet has to tell me their personal info. ........think it's because when they ask how I'm doing I answer happily and sincerely. That always messes people up

That in itself is a sign of the times. Being friendly confusing and attracting people.....think of it, just insane that kindness is rare.


blah blah blah *grumble*

Time to howl at the moon.


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## jimarh (Feb 21, 2005)

I am afraid (or not) that I agree with Ernie. Not my idea of the way I want to live. It may sound wonderful in theory but . . . I am an individual not a member of a group, if you understand what I mean.

I do not like restrictions. I put up with what I have to in this world but I resent even being told that I MUST wear a seat belt. Silly? Yes, but if I want to go through the windshield, it is my decision. I hate someone else deciding for me. 

Don't think I would fit in your commune. If I worked hard for something and earned it from my own labor, I would not like being told it belonged to the 'group' and to give it up whether it was money, food, toys, or whatever. 

I am not materialistic . . . too busy trying to take care of my needs to worry about many wants . . . but what I do have is mine. 

Selfish? Probably but that's me. Don't think I am a commune type. I would be frustrated if I thought someone who didn't work as hard as me or save as carefully as I did, could share what I had gained by that labor or frugal living. 

Once the SHTF, the food and needs that I have stored will be carefully downplayed and not shared with the community of others who have not stored for themselves . . . unless they have something I need and can barter for to improve my situation.

I think it would be interesting for you to return, as an adult, to see if your childhood memories live up to adult realities in the situation. They may . . . but it would be interesting for you to have a different view of the lifestyle and compare.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

jimarh said:


> I am afraid (or not) that I agree with Ernie. Not my idea of the way I want to live. It may sound wonderful in theory but . . . I am an individual not a member of a group, if you understand what I mean.
> 
> *I am an individual too and hate authority. I do however find comfort in a sane community. Those are increasingly hard to find. itâs like the frog in the boiling pot metaphor. People do not realize how disgusting and pathetic the average city social structure is and how it has changed very rapidly. Is it the human condition, perhaps. I still like to dream of better ways. I like to imagine we all are capable of living on a higher plane than we choose to. *
> 
> ...


I am curious why it is that people are so reluctant to accept that this is possible, it can work and it does. just because it is a foreign concept does not mean it is flawed. Okay, it is not for you, I can dig that. It doesnât make this place any less real or itâs simple grace any less magical.

Be who you are, do what pleases you. Iâm just trying to show people that there is potential if we are willing to see and work toward it. i'm not trying to spew words of revolution and dissent. What I'm trying to say is that here and now in our country we lack some cohesiveness. We have people who are starving and people who have designer clothes for their dogs. If that isn't totally twisted i do not know what is.


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## jimarh (Feb 21, 2005)

I understand and agree it is a shame that the world is made up of haves and have nots...........really sad some have almost too much and others not even enough.
However, I think my problem with your description of the commune may be in my personality - I would make a very good hermit and am well on the way to that. I often don't go in to town or see or talk to other people for a week or sometimes more at a time and am happy that way. I like being alone and enjoy a peaceful and happy existence. 
I suppose some would say that I am almost anti-social. There are times people around me irritate me terribly. 
Everything I do (barring laws etc that I am forced to abide by), I decide - not a group. That is my choice and preference. 
To others, the lifestyle you talk of might be ideal. I don't want you to think I am knocking the life you describe; just saying personally I don't think I would fit.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

jimarh said:


> I understand and agree it is a shame that the world is made up of haves and have nots...........really sad some have almost too much and others not even enough.
> However, I think my problem with your description of the commune may be in my personality - I would make a very good hermit and am well on the way to that. I often don't go in to town or see or talk to other people for a week or sometimes more at a time and am happy that way. I like being alone and enjoy a peaceful and happy existence.
> I suppose some would say that I am almost anti-social. There are times people around me irritate me terribly.
> Everything I do (barring laws etc that I am forced to abide by), I decide - not a group. That is my choice and preference.
> To others, the lifestyle you talk of might be ideal. I don't want you to think I am knocking the life you describe; just saying personally I don't think I would fit.



I am diggin' what you're saying, for real !

I am waaay on board with the comforts of a reclusive life as described by a few people on here.

I think the problem is personal boundaries and respect which is hard to get a baseline on when in large groups. I think that is in part due to swelling sizes of what we call community. I don't see cities as community. I see them as warehouses of houses, LOL.

I think anything outside of village size is going to have some issues from a lack of connectedness.

I am a hermit because of wounds I sustained by being open to community. I am very jaded, wasn't born that way. I am also just a tad naive and have memories of a time when trust was an asset not a liability. Even though having people in my inner sanctum gives me the creeps I still yearn for the feeling of security, the true deep life long bonds of real community. 

maybe that is why I hide as far as I can in real life but still come lurking out from under my rock to this forum. A safe place filled with people who kind of get me and get the way I live.

If we all shared a huge farm with private cabins nestled in the woods a twisting path away from neighbors and a playground we could watch our children grown on, well.....I would be glad to call many of you family. 

Weeding fields would be much less icky if I had one of you to have these cafe type dialogues with as we toiled in the hot sun. 

That's all, just a vision of a better way, not at all based in my current reality.


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## jimarh (Feb 21, 2005)

good conversation. Thanks. 

Happy to call you a friend as long as you stay on your side of the hill and leave me alone on mine (lol). 

Glad that you have wonderful childhood memories; we all should. Also sorry that you have been hurt by life. I have too at times and can sympathize with you. 

Perhaps that is why I am happiest when alone . . . I trust myself more than anyone else to protect and care for/about me.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

I am much to flakey to even depend on myself. Maybe that's why I need community, to keep me in line.

I'm just a dreamer, need you good folks to whip me into shape.

Plus I would get into trouble for using the community TP to decorate your house. I would also clean it up myself after I got a good giggle out of it. not too sure you or anyone else would be amused.

Yes, space is good. Call before coming over, it may be a bad hair, in my jammies all day kind of day.


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## CowgirlGloria (Jun 19, 2008)

Communal life sounds lovely for a child who didn't understand why daddy didn't fit in and had to leave.

For me, I'd be like daddy. I could never conform to a commune. No possible way.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

CowgirlGloria said:


> Communal life sounds lovely for a child who didn't understand why daddy didn't fit in and had to leave.
> 
> For me, I'd be like daddy. I could never conform to a commune. No possible way.



I'm trying not to take offense to your post. I find many of your posts hard to do that with.

My Daddy didn't fit in because he had PTSD from incredibly harsh childhood, rape by an uncle, beatings by his Father who was constantly away at sea and military service in an era when many people died. My Daddy had an outburst that was not acceptable in ANY community.

My Daddy was a product of a messed up society, had me and messed me up too. That doesn't make the group bad for not allowing such behavior. It makes the group who churned him out in the first place the one with the problem, the group who molded him.

BTW they were humble farm country, God loving folks with EVERY son doing military service for a couple generations. That would outwardly seem like good folk, wouldn't it? 

So please excuse me if I find your assumptions about people incorrect in my experiences. If you feel it is so incorrect I challenge you to visit the commune and make an assesment based on fact not speculation on my lack of understanding.

I also suggest that when making presumptions about people that you do so in a more civil fashion. I for one am having difficulty treating you as I do everyone else at this point. I think you have seen me make friendly gestures toward you. I may have to rethink that.


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## CowgirlGloria (Jun 19, 2008)

Hon, you loved it as a child up to the age of 11. You aren't there now. I have no qualms if you decide to go back. None whatsoever. But you and your DH don't see fit to go there now, as that lifestyle doesn't quite fit you now.

I'm just saying that, despite your fondness for that way of life, I could not live that way, personally. I'm an individualist. I'm not a conformist. There are a lot of people who would not care for that lifestyle. I'm all for people being able to choose it, including you, if you choose it for yourself in the future, to see if it still fits the adult you have become. It is simply not for me. Sorry you did not want to hear that.


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

Many on this forum talk about having great neighbors, ones that they trade favors with without keeping score (ie, without paying money). So you share your zuchini and squash, and they share their grapes and jam, and you shovel their driveway after a snowfall when they're out of town. All without payment, without keeping score. It works because you trust that it will work out fairly in the end. And there's usually some sort of sanction if one neighbor doesn't keep up their end of the bargain. You stop doing the favors.

Seems to me, much of what Hintonlady is talking about, worked because it was largely a group of people that would have been great neighbors. They shared cooking and housing a bit more than just neighbors. Altho it appears they also shared salaries, I'm guessing most were making approximately the same amount anyway. (ie, I doubt in practice that they had stock brokers and trash collectors in the commune; probably mostly working class people making approximately the same amount of money.) 

My guess is if people's motivations and goals in life were similar enough, it would probably work pretty well. If people didn't have those qualities that made it work, it could certainly be a nightmare. If they have a reasonable process for setting expectations for potential new members, and a reasonable process for resolving problems, it probably could work pretty well.

--sgl


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Hintonlady - thank you for taking the high road in this conversation.
for others with a condesending way of typing, please rethink and adjust.

I am appreciating the exchange up until the last couple of posts, and I think most other members were also. 

Angie


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## jimarh (Feb 21, 2005)

_Call before coming over, it may be a bad hair, in my jammies all day kind of day.___________________

Hintonlady, my hair is a mess most days and I love slopping around in jammies. That is the kind of day I want to come - not the one I want to stay home and miss!! 
I am not as anti-social as I sounded in my posts.........I could bring brownies??


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

What was this thread about again?


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

CowgirlGloria said:


> Hon, you loved it as a child up to the age of 11. You aren't there now. I have no qualms if you decide to go back. None whatsoever. But you and your DH don't see fit to go there now, as that lifestyle doesn't quite fit you now.
> 
> I'm just saying that, despite your fondness for that way of life, I could not live that way, personally. I'm an individualist. I'm not a conformist. There are a lot of people who would not care for that lifestyle. I'm all for people being able to choose it, including you, if you choose it for yourself in the future, to see if it still fits the adult you have become. It is simply not for me. Sorry you did not want to hear that.


Chronological age and emotional ages are two distinctly different things. You do not know anything about me or the 11 year old I was. By that age I had been around the world twice as well and was learning my third language. I was a latch key kid due to finances at 1st grade. I raised myself. Although very young I was quite mature and had to make lots of adult decisions. I also have very clear memories from as early as 6 months of age, enough so to amaze my parents. I am unconcerned with people who question my abilities now or then, Why this is a point of contention for you is beyond me and at this point redundant.

My relative age then does not negate opinions formed on adult reason.

My DH and I do not choose to go there for reasons, once again you could not possibly comprehend because you are too busy making assumptions. INCORRECT assumptions. 

The land we live on was partially bought by his Great, great Granbdfather (yes two greats) for his Grandfather who payed it off through a lifetime of hard, humble work. There are currently 4 generations living on the property In different sections. This is very prevalent in our community. Just down the road are several other families who have done the same and know us all in intimate familial ways. It is essentially very similar in spirit with the exception that the association is loose and traditional by local standards.

I would be a very cruel woman if I asked my DH to leave the farm he has spent his whole life on and plans to spend the remainder. I would also be blind if I didn't see it for the unique blessing that it is.

I have been non conformist since I was in preschool. I was the only kid who glued their snow man with the three white construction paper balls in an odd order. It wasn't because I was special ed, it was because I was exercising my creativity and disregard for arbitrary control. I am however capable of seeing beyond my own self centered needs and am able to foster cooperation, not because there is something in it for me but because it is for the best of the community.

To illustrate my point. You calling me hon was obvioulsy a jab, we are all presumably adults here. I also refuse to acknowledge it any more than I just digressed.


I never disagreed with your opinion. I simply find your style of delivery and communication quite rude and offensive. It is good you choose not to live on a commune. It is quite evident by your behavior here that your original assesment of not fitting in is very accurate. You are absolutely correct.

Bravo

Seeing as I feel I have defended my point and "argument" with respectful and fact based information I conclude that it is time to concede. You win. I have no desire to illustrate your point.

Thank you for a valuable life lesson in my own determination to do the right thing in spite of the less than savory world I reside in.

Please feel free to squeeze in your final response. I have not now or doubt I ever will find your comments worth responding to again.


I sincerely apologize for this ugliness to my friends in this community. I think you all know me well enough to draw your own conclusions, whatever they may be. Good day.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

thanks Hintonlady....
I do believe this is a good stopping point in this deteriorating discussion.

Closing thread.

Angie


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