# sexuality problem



## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

My relative's 13 year old daughter told her that her friends were all liking boys.She told her mother that she was attracted to girls.How would you handle this situation?


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wwubben said:


> My relative's 13 year old daughter told her that her friends were all liking boys.She told her mother that she was attracted to girls.How would you handle this situation?


Is this a situation to be handled?


----------



## msweeten (Jan 22, 2015)

I would try to figure out what the girls' attraction is and why she feels this way.


----------



## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

painterswife said:


> Is this a situation to be handled?


They are worried about grandpa I think.How would you let the rest of the family know or should you just go on with life and let the chips fall where they may?


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

wwubben said:


> They are worried about grandpa I think.How would you let the rest of the family know or should you just go on with life and let the chips fall where they may?


She's only 13 and it sounds like the mother is already letting family know. What else can you do besides loving and supporting her and "letting the chips fall where they may"?


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

wwubben said:


> They are worried about grandpa I think.How would you let the rest of the family know or should you just go on with life and let the chips fall where they may?


IMHO be honest with her about how some might react, give her time to be involved in the decision to open up about it. But support her decisions above all.


----------



## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

wwubben said:


> My relative's 13 year old daughter told her that her friends were all liking boys.She told her mother that she was attracted to girls.How would you handle this situation?


Not enough information.

Was the girl asking her mother for advice or counselling? Or was she just making a statement?

Does the girl understand the difference between sexual attraction and social attraction?

Did she say she was sexually attracted to girls, or was she indicating that she's not yet sexually interested in boys and prefers the social company of girls?

If the girl is sexually attracted to other girls why does it need to be "handled" by anyone else? What will be will be and the girl needs to handle her own affairs and her own social life. If she's confused about her sexual attractions then it might be helpful for her to speak to a professional counsellor or physician, one who has no religious affiliation or biases that would prejudice their responsibility as a counsellor.


----------



## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

She's 13, ignore it


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

be supportive , let her know it's ok , and it's ok if she changes her mind at some point also , the important thing is to only be in relationships with people that respect you and are good to you and you need to respect them and be good to them.


----------



## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

Grampas weren't born yesterday.  Many are loving, accepting and wise.

Talking between mom and daughter is good. Mom listening is good. If the daughter is thinking out loud, that's OK too. When others talk, it is often for other reasons. All the best.


----------



## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Does she get out socially to dance with large groups of other kids?
Is she pretty, and can she be made to be REALLY pretty?
If so, then taking her to dances will cause her to get noticed by guys who may think that theyre not good enough to luck out with her, but want to dance with her so that they can tell themselves that they danced with a dang hot girl. Boys who do do this will likely be kind, careful, caucious, treat her like a lady. Yes, she may want to hang around with the gals, but, getting noticed favoriably by the guys may nudge her in that direction.
At 13, nowadays, its time she noticed guys, and sarted to get a feel about how they are/think
BUTT, What do I know lol.


----------



## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

I am so tired of all this carp!

I bet there wouldn't be two thirds young people of questioning their sexuality if the news and everyone didn't make such big deal of being the "wrong sex".

I think Fennik has the most thoughtful, in depth answer.


----------



## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

wwubben said:


> My relative's 13 year old daughter told her that her friends were all liking boys.She told her mother that she was attracted to girls.How would you handle this situation?


Why is this even considered a "problem"?

Since it is not your daughter and "a relative's", it is really none of your business. If you found out from the girl's mother, that was wrong, very wrong of her to mention it to anyone. That poor girl, if she ever finds out can she never trust her mother with confidential information again.

Since when do grandpas involve themselves in matters of sexuality involving 13 year old granddaughters? Why is he even going to know before it becomes obvious? Oh, wait, with that mother....

She's only 13. Is she really attracted to girls, or has she been influenced by how the media has glamorized anything to do with sexuality which isn't hetero?



> If the girl is sexually attracted to other girls why does it need to be "handled" by anyone else? What will be will be and the girl needs to handle her own affairs and her own social life. If she's confused about her sexual attractions then it might be helpful for her to speak to a professional counsellor or physician, one who has no religious affiliation or biases that would prejudice their responsibility as a counsellor.


 That right there. Before a councilor she needs a mature sensible adult who she can trust to explain the facts of life about normal hetero and homosexuality, and let the chips fall where they may, being supportive all the way. Too bad it looks like the ship has sailed for her to be able to depend on the mother to fill that role.


----------



## NC_minifarm (Jan 7, 2015)

FarmboyBill said:


> Does she get out socially to dance with large groups of other kids?
> Is she pretty, and can she be made to be REALLY pretty?
> If so, then taking her to dances will cause her to get noticed by guys who may think that theyre not good enough to luck out with her, but want to dance with her so that they can tell themselves that they danced with a dang hot girl. Boys who do do this will likely be kind, careful, caucious, treat her like a lady. Yes, she may want to hang around with the gals, but, getting noticed favoriably by the guys may nudge her in that direction.
> At 13, nowadays, its time she noticed guys, and sarted to get a feel about how they are/think
> BUTT, What do I know lol.



Definitely don't do this. I highly doubt boys who think she's "dang hot" will treat her like a lady. I know it's been a while since you were a teen bill, but young men think not with their brains with something else. Forcing her into a social situation where she may receive unwanted/the wrong kind of attention will not help her self esteem let alone this "situation". 

She's young. Deal with it by explaining what all relationships should be based off of- love, kindness, but most of all trust. The gender doesn't matter. Now is the time for the "talk". Perhaps a local institution has flyers to aid in the discussion. Discuss safety in all forms of relationships. Explain the warning signs of unhealthy relationships.

Above all, if she comes to you or her mother again, encourage her with a listening ear. It maybe media hype getting to her head. It maybe a phase. But it's how she thinks and she should not be shamed, yelled at, etc. 

But above all, be there for her when she needs you to be.


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

I just don't understand what there is to "handle" or why this is such a "problem". At 13, I don't think the kid knows herself well enough yet to "come out" and have some big announcement go through the family that she is gay. Or even that she might be gay. Whether she is gay, bi, or just confused about her awakening sexuality, let her sort it out privately and the extended family will become aware of whatever "it" is when she is older and has relationships. 

It is wonderful that she is talking to her mother about it, that is a sign of a good relationship there. This child just needs love and support while she finds herself. If she is in fact gay, she is fortunate to have been born during these times when acceptance of gays is better than ever before within our society and there are laws to protect her rights. 

If I was her mom, I would just continue to love her, listen to her, be there for her, and keep my mouth shut about it to anyone else.


----------



## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

Funny you should ask, my 14 yr old daughter recently shared something similar with me. She has always talked openly with me, used me as a sounding board for venting about typical friend drama, asked for my thoughts on various things that happen with and between her friends, wants advice on how to handle challenging situations, and seems to trust me enough to talk about most anything. To be honest a few things have really thrown me but through it all I have managed to assure her that I will always be there for her and my love and support for her will not wain. 

Because we have had a history of open and honest conversation I was able to simply reaffirm what I had already told her many other times in that every relationship whether it's with friends, parents, teachers, or more of a romantic nature will teach her something and help her fetter out the qualities she wants and needs from a lasting partnership. That because her mind and body is still evolving now is not the time to determine definitively what she wants and the likelihood that she will establish a lasting long term relationship is highly unlikely BUT regardless of all that when she's older and she has found the one she wants to be with I will not care if that person is male or female as long as I know that she is confident in her identity and that whoever she is with loves her, respects her, and treats her like gold. Those last three things more than anything else are what will determine if I can be fully supportive of anyone who enters her life no matter what role they play in her life.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I don't know of many gay kids that officially come out but they are inclined to leave a trail of crumbs for family to follow. 

Obviously, kid fear rejection and family disappointment so they tend to feel things out for a long time before they offer many hints but most astute parents are capable of figuring it out without an official announcement but comments like this should not be ignored and should be discussed.


----------



## doozie (May 21, 2005)

Oh yeah, teen years and it seems that alllll of your girlfriends have a boyfriend, even if they don't.
Maybe she just isn't interested in boys......yet.
I also seem to remember the boys at 13 being very immature, and the girls in some ways trying to be all grown up, especially if the had older sisters, that had boyfriends.
Sometimes I was confused as to what or why a girlfriend even liked a certain boy at that age.
I think kids are expected or pushed into little relationships much too soon, by parents or even by peers at times. 
Maybe the mom is jumping to conclusions? Certainly no need to inform Grandpa!, or anyone else for that matter.


----------



## medic155242 (Mar 22, 2016)

I am amazed that she has so much confidence in her relationship with her mother to tell her that. Obviously she feels safe enough to talk to her mother about such things which is really a testimony to the way she was raised. I have thought about the same things. How would I handle it. I am a Christian so I don't condone it, but just like my lord I would love them through it.


----------



## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Has it been too long since some of you were 13? That's 8th grade, sometimes 9th if the kid started school early. That's definitely old enough to start being sexually attracted. I definitely had crushes at that age! I wouldn't discount her feelings because she's "only" 13. 

Bottom line, it's not a problem, period. If the grandpa finds out and has issues with it, then...well, bless his heart. The mother's job is to love and support her daughter, and the daughter's feelings come before grandpas any day of the week.


----------



## citystead (Feb 23, 2016)

Love her. Tell her there is nothing wrong with her. Tell her she will love different people along the path of her life, and there is no problem with whoever she loves. If grandpa does find out at some point, hope that he loves his granddaughter enough to accept and love her no matter who else she loves.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

wwubben said:


> My relative's 13 year old daughter told her that her friends were all liking boys.She told her mother that she was attracted to girls.How would you handle this situation?


I'm not sure what needs to be handled and I'm of the opinion that if the family loved the girl the day before they concluded she may be gay, there is no reason for them to not love her the day after. 

Having gone through this, I can assure you that the first though most parents and family members have is, 'now what' but it doesn't change the child. 

If they were raised to be good people, they're still going to be good people and they family should continue to guide them accordingly. 

Based on the bit of information offered, I'd guess she's testing the water to see what reaction she'll get but she may also be young enough that she's not thinking of boys yet so I'd let her guide conversation but I'd be careful about forcing her to 'out' herself or discount her feelings as being too young to know. 

I'd be glad to answer specific questions but I'm of the opinion that there is no real need to notify the family of a 13 year old girl's sexual identity issues and to discuss it in that way sets her up for a lot of questions and judgment that she's not emotionally prepared for. 

If grandpa isn't worried about the other grandkid's sexual orientation, he really doesn't need to involve in this one either and perhaps he should continue to love his grandchildren for the people they are.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

wwubben said:


> My relative's 13 year old daughter told her that her friends were all liking boys.She told her mother that she was attracted to girls.How would you handle this situation?


There are so many things to look at:

What does the 13yo's childhood look like? Has there been abuse, abandonment, trauma, etc?
Does she come from a "Clever" type family, where it's all wholesome, good?
Does she have strict, oppressive religious (cultish) type family?
Is there a missing father element?

Is she plugged into social media 8-15 hours a day?
What does her 'peer' group look like?
Is this true feelings, or is this rebellion?

(back when I was a kid, for a white girl to date a black man or a white boy to date a black girl, THAT was very 'rebellious' because it was considered "tabo" and young people love to rebel......)

I would consider all of these factors before I approached the situation.

It's not a situation to be "handled". It is, what it is.
But before I fell all over myself trying to 'embrace and encourage' this announcement, I would factor in all the above, then go from there.
I would rule out "attention grab" before I embraced and encouraged.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wwubben said:


> My relative's 13 year old daughter told her that her friends were all liking boys.She told her mother that she was attracted to girls.How would you handle this situation?


*NOT* by telling everyone I knew.
Gossip isn't helpful, and will likely make things worse for the girl


----------



## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

She should do whatever she can to direct the girl to be attracted to boys - often times a girl that age is confused and a steady hand can get her over any misdirected attractions - the one thing you don't want to happen is encourage any sexual attraction she may have for other girls - nip it in the bud - tell her that it is not normal - encourage her to go out with nice boys - then hope and pray that she ends up going downs the right path - otherwise she will have a screwed up life


----------



## citystead (Feb 23, 2016)

Telling her she isn't normal is what is more likely to cause her to have a screwed up life. Encouraging her to go out with boys when she isn't attracted to them isn't going to end well either. 

JoePa, imagine you had been encouraged to go out with boys when you were a teen and were told at home that it wasn't normal for you not to. It's the same thing. Imagine how you would have felt about both those situations, especially if the boy you were with "encouraged" further physical action, as teenage boys are known to do.


----------



## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

Some homosexuals are born that way - others are on the fence and when caught early enough can be straightened out - if you have sons make sure you do manly things with them - like sports, hunting, fishing and things boys normally do - likewise if you have girls have the wife do girly things with them - this has a big influence on how they feel about things - If I had a son that exhibited fruity behavior I would definitely do all I can to make a man out of him - if that was impossible then I would tell him that it is wrong to engage in any homosexual activities - and he will have to do the best he can to have an otherwise normal life - after all sex isn't the only thing in life - I would definitely love him no matter 

Years ago I knew a person who was a **** - he never married and was never involved in any homosexual activities - was generally a very nice guy - he opened a restaurant that became very successful - he knew that he was different but he also knew that being a Christian it was wrong to get involved with that life style - people are born with all kinds of problems - some mental - others physical - what counts is how you deal with these problems 

I also saw people getting interviewed on TV who were at one time homosexuals - they were able to change with the help pastors and or professional help


----------



## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

There are two ways of viewing this: One is that as long as it feels right and harms nobody that shouldn't be harmed, let it be. With the mindset, one is only limited by the imagination as to what is possible, or eventually permissible and even honorable by the current standards.

The other mindset is that we are all born with a capacity to do anything and everything. We (including myself) could all kill and would kill, if we were in the situation where it was expedient or even approved upon. See Nazi Germany. My own grandfather was killed by the Nazis yet my father and most likely my grandfather were as anti-Semitic as any Nazi. In fact once I even overheard my father voicing approval of what Hitler did to the Jews! Our environment may allow us to suppress our "sin nature" and appear as "good" people. Or an environment of abuse or desperation will help us to do all sorts of things consistent with our "natural" state of the heart. There is an answer for this, and many of us celebrate it tomorrow.


----------



## mrsgcpete (Sep 16, 2012)

JoePa said:


> Some homosexuals are born that way - others are on the fence and when caught early enough can be straightened out - if you have sons make sure you do manly things with them - like sports, hunting, fishing and things boys normally do - likewise if you have girls have the wife do girly things with them - this has a big influence on how they feel about things - If I had a son that exhibited fruity behavior I would definitely do all I can to make a man out of him - if that was impossible then I would tell him that it is wrong to engage in any homosexual activities - and he will have to do the best he can to have an otherwise normal life - after all sex isn't the only thing in life - I would definitely love him no matter
> 
> Years ago I knew a person who was a **** - he never married and was never involved in any homosexual activities - was generally a very nice guy - he opened a restaurant that became very successful - he knew that he was different but he also knew that being a Christian it was wrong to get involved with that life style - people are born with all kinds of problems - some mental - others physical - what counts is how you deal with these problems
> 
> I also saw people getting interviewed on TV who were at one time homosexuals - they were able to change with the help pastors and or professional help


You can't love someone and tell them who they are is wrong or that being a Christian they cant be in a loving homosexual relationship (you can tell me where its in the bible, and i can find you biblical scholars who will tell you that the bible doesnt address homosexuality, if you look at the actual translation) . You cant pray the gay away, and proffessional help that does anything but tell the child that they are loved and supported is abuse. My husband does "manly" activites with all of our kids, and we go to the theatre and do arts and crafts and cook with everyone, we have two girls who are like night and day despite being raised in the same house. 

the only thing that you said that i agree with is "What Counts is how you deal these problems" ... love is the answer. and telling a child that they are broken and must be fixed is not love.


----------



## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

JoePa said:


> Some homosexuals are born that way - others are on the fence and when caught early enough can be straightened out - if you have sons make sure you do manly things with them - like sports, hunting, fishing and things boys normally do - likewise if you have girls have the wife do girly things with them - this has a big influence on how they feel about things - If I had a son that exhibited fruity behavior I would definitely do all I can to make a man out of him - if that was impossible then I would tell him that it is wrong to engage in any homosexual activities - and he will have to do the best he can to have an otherwise normal life - after all sex isn't the only thing in life - I would definitely love him no matter


I'm not so certain things are all that easy. I don't think you can "fix" something that isn't broken.

As for trying to lead them to have a "normal" life - I've seen enough people that got married and had children so they would be "normal", only to get divorced in their 30's or 40's so they could lead a truly happy life - with a gay partner. 

How do you think the lives of the original spouse and the children end up feeling?

The original poster doesn't need to "do" anything. Chances are if the girl truly is gay, Grandpa will eventually come to accept it or just not have anything to do with his Granddaughter. No one in the family needs to be "informed", if it's true it will eventually come out on it's own.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> *NOT* by telling everyone I knew.
> Gossip isn't helpful, and will likely make things worse for the girl


It's also not the mothers place to out her daughter. The daughter should do that if and when she is ready.


----------



## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Much a do about nothing. The girl is 13 and it's the cool thing to be gay or bi or trans right now. The boys she knows are probably so obnoxious she doesn't care for them. Give her time to figure out who she is and my guess is she will go through many changes. This sounds very drama inducing to me and it sure got mom all stirred up so it was a success from her point of view. My guess is gramps would be wise enough to see this for what it is and tell mom to calm down.


----------



## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

JoePa said:


> Some homosexuals are born that way - others are on the fence and when caught early enough can be straightened out - if you have sons make sure you do manly things with them - like sports, hunting, fishing and things boys normally do - likewise if you have girls have the wife do girly things with them - this has a big influence on how they feel about things - If I had a son that exhibited fruity behavior I would definitely do all I can to make a man out of him - if that was impossible then I would tell him that it is wrong to engage in any homosexual activities - and he will have to do the best he can to have an otherwise normal life - after all sex isn't the only thing in life - I would definitely love him no matter
> 
> Years ago I knew a person who was a **** - he never married and was never involved in any homosexual activities - was generally a very nice guy - he opened a restaurant that became very successful - he knew that he was different but he also knew that being a Christian it was wrong to get involved with that life style - people are born with all kinds of problems - some mental - others physical - what counts is how you deal with these problems
> 
> I also saw people getting interviewed on TV who were at one time homosexuals - they were able to change with the help pastors and or professional help


What about Ted Haggard? Why couldn't the pastor fix himself? Which brings up the main point of your satire, the role of religion in creating conflict, both internal and between people. Honestly, religion is the most foolish thing that the human race ever dreamed up.

I'm guessing that your whole post is written as satire anyway, since surely no thinking or sensible human being still believes all of those things. Just look to many examples in the animal kingdom to realize that homosexuality is a natural occurrence. Animals are not influenced by the media or the latest fads. 

This who trans thing is another story. We'll never know if animals experience such a thing, but I doubt it. Just the fact that the media has picked it up as it's latest cause, alone tells me that it is probably as far from normal or reality as possible. If it does occur, it is very, very rare, but since they decided to anoint Bruce Jenner as the poster boy for the thing, now everyone wants to be one, knows one, or has a child with a classmate who is one, who requires "special handling" and re-education of the rest of the school on how to behave around this new form of alien life. It just leaves me wondering what the next big thing will be that we are told that is normal that we have to accept and embrace. I can't even imagine. Well, I actually can imagine, but it starts to get scary, and I don't want to give them any ideas. It's no surprise that these things usually start in Hollywood.


----------



## WatchRyder (Feb 22, 2016)

wwubben said:


> My relative's 13 year old daughter told her that her friends were all liking boys.She told her mother that she was attracted to girls.How would you handle this situation?


Sit her down and sort it out! It's probably a phase she is going through, not helped by the red diaper teachers and propaganda that schools are drenched in.
The whole **** thing is kinda outa control these days. At least Putin in on the right track keeping them in the closet so they don't spread it around and get others to have strange ideas. Some seem to think happily gay after? I would argue that ****-folk are mentally wrecked and are more likely to commit suicide than non-homos.

Historically every society that went out of control with weird behavior like that never did well, just look at Rome's collapse for a hint.

Good luck.

PS. I have a relative who says she is a lesbian, but the main reason is she just isn't attractive enough to rope the guys so has to revert to her own sex for comfort.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

WatchRyder said:


> Sit her down and sort it out! It's probably a phase she is going through, not helped by the red diaper teachers and propaganda that schools are drenched in.
> The whole **** thing is kinda outa control these days. At least Putin in on the right track keeping them in the closet so they don't spread it around and get others to have strange ideas. Some seem to think happily gay after? I would argue that ****-folk are mentally wrecked and are more likely to commit suicide than non-homos.
> 
> Historically every society that went out of control with weird behavior like that never did well, just look at Rome's collapse for a hint.
> ...


Did you intend to hit every hot topic button with this post? If so, you did a great job. :facepalm:


----------



## mrsgcpete (Sep 16, 2012)

WatchRyder said:


> PS. I have a relative who says she is a lesbian, but the main reason is she just isn't attractive enough to rope the guys so has to revert to her own sex for comfort.



ha ha ha NO. men have no standards. if they can find someone willing they'll take it.


----------



## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

The Bible doesn't address homosexuality - you got to be kidding - in the Bible it can't be made any clearer that homosexual activity is wrong - both in the Old and New testament - if you find some so-called biblical scholars who say differently I suggest at the least - they don't know what they are talking about - I guess you can find all kinds of dough dough if you look hard enough - now I heard everything

I'll tell you one thing that is not healthy for girls - is the way many are being raised - years ago there were a couple lesbians who were dissatisfied with their status in life - so they started this women's liberation movement - they pushed the thought that women should act and do what men did - unfortunately many women fell for it - the big push was to get girls to place sports like the boys - instead of girls doing female things they started trying to be stronger, run faster, jump higher, talk tougher and what you ended up with is often hard to tell if someone is a boy or girl

Years ago you could tell that you were looking at a girl from just the way she walked - today you have to look twice - many walk like guys - somehow from all these sports the girls are acting and looking more like men - then you got these babes who pump iron - they end up ugly looking - nothing attractive about them - yes you've come a long way baby but unfortunate it is in the wrong direction


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

JoePa said:


> The Bible doesn't address homosexuality - you got to be kidding - in the Bible it can't be made any clearer that homosexual activity is wrong - both in the Old and New testament - if you find some so-called biblical scholars who say differently I suggest at the least - they don't know what they are talking about - I guess you can find all kinds of dough dough if you look hard enough - now I heard everything
> 
> I'll tell you one thing that is not healthy for girls - is the way many are being raised - years ago there were a couple lesbians who were dissatisfied with their status in life - so they started this women's liberation movement - they pushed the thought that women should act and do what men did - unfortunately many women fell for it - the big push was to get girls to place sports like the boys - instead of girls doing female things they started trying to be stronger, run faster, jump higher, talk tougher and what you ended up with is often hard to tell if someone is a boy or girl
> 
> Years ago you could tell that you were looking at a girl from just the way she walked - today you have to look twice - many walk like guys - somehow from all these sports the girls are acting and looking more like men - then you got these babes who pump iron - they end up ugly looking - nothing attractive about them - yes you've come a long way baby but unfortunate it is in the wrong direction


I'll suggest that the bible is simply a work of fiction. 

Why would I consider it's words any more true than any other fictional novel?


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

JoePa said:


> The Bible doesn't address homosexuality - you got to be kidding - in the Bible it can't be made any clearer that homosexual activity is wrong - both in the Old and New testament - if you find some so-called biblical scholars who say differently I suggest at the least - they don't know what they are talking about - I guess you can find all kinds of dough dough if you look hard enough - now I heard everything
> 
> I'll tell you one thing that is not healthy for girls - is the way many are being raised - years ago there were a couple lesbians who were dissatisfied with their status in life - so they started this women's liberation movement - they pushed the thought that women should act and do what men did - unfortunately many women fell for it - the big push was to get girls to place sports like the boys - instead of girls doing female things they started trying to be stronger, run faster, jump higher, talk tougher and what you ended up with is often hard to tell if someone is a boy or girl
> 
> Years ago you could tell that you were looking at a girl from just the way she walked - today you have to look twice - many walk like guys - somehow from all these sports the girls are acting and looking more like men - then you got these babes who pump iron - they end up ugly looking - nothing attractive about them - yes you've come a long way baby but unfortunate it is in the wrong direction


Geez, are you serious?


----------



## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

I have no advice to the OP.
What I will say is that I have worked with teens for over 25 years.
What I found interesting was after Madonna and Brittany kissed on some show years ago, there was a flurry of lesbian looking activity in the halls, girls holding hands, hugging kissing......girls who were with boys prior.....and after.

Some girls who considered themselves real lesbians were annoyed by it all......they called it a fad......and they seemed to be correct.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Before discussion gets too heated, I'd like to remind people that Families is about helpful advise and the OP didn't ask for judgment nor did they ask advice on reprogramming so keep your comments civil.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

The thing is, wearing dresses or not has nothing to do with who you fall in love with. 

And, driving a pickup or a sports car has nothing to with if you find Mark or Mary attractive. 

A girl putting a ribbon in her hair is not what makes her straight or not.

As for the young woman in question, listen if she wants to talk, and be a friend to her. :knitting:. Many people find out that things are clearer if they talk to people about the things that are important in their lives. This can be true even if no advice is given. So, if she wants to talk: listen.


----------



## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

Jo Pa's post isn't satire. if you read many of his posts you will see he believes every word. it's upbringing I guess.he's over 80 and not about to change. we will just have to bear with it. my father was exactly the same way. we have several gay and lesbians in our family and to my father they may as well have been dead already . and even then they were going to be the first log on the fire. ~Georgia


----------



## Nsoitgoes (Jan 31, 2016)

WatchRyder said:


> PS. I have a relative who says she is a lesbian, but the main reason is she just isn't attractive enough to rope the guys so has to revert to her own sex for comfort.


Lol. As long as she is breathing (and in some cases, even if she isn't) there will always be some guy willing to make the sacrifice.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

I just can't help but put myself in this 13 year old girl's shoes. How mortified would I be that someone is discussing my sexual preference (or, honestly, anything having to do with sex, and me) on a message board like it's anyone's business but mine, or that anything could be done about it if it were. 

As my mom loves to say, noneya.


----------



## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Keep reading posts on this forum Mish and you'll discover everything get discussed eventually! We just have to hope it is not our relatives that are posting.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Mish said:


> I just can't help but put myself in this 13 year old girl's shoes. How mortified would I be that someone is discussing my sexual preference (or, honestly, anything having to do with sex, and me) on a message board like it's anyone's business but mine, or that anything could be done about it if it were.
> 
> As my mom loves to say, noneya.


I understand your point but as a parent who's had to deal with this situation, no matter how prepared you think you are for the conversation, it's still a tough one. 

Too often, parents are so afraid of saying the wrong thing that they try and conclude the conversation before it has begun or gloss over a child trying to express real concerns and feelings as 'something they'll grow out of.'

I'd way rather see an anonymous discussion here than have any kid wondering if their parent can accept them or if they upset a parent. 

I would personally consider a conversation like the one mentioned as being a teen who trying to tactfully broach a subject that concerns them and those kinds of conversations always need an immediate discussion, no matter what their sexual orientation is.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Young people are often confused about their sexuality. It's part of growing up. It's great that this girl has the kind of relationship with her mother were this subject could be discussed. Allow her to mature and grow, put no pressure on her, keep the communication going. Only time will tell. 
In college I was good friends with two girls who had a lesbian relationship. It lasted about two years and then slowly ended. these were girls in their late teens. When I hear of young people, 11,12,13,14 announcing they are gay I take a wait and see attitude. "Coming out" is kind of trendy now. I'm not saying that a 13 year old can't make this decision but at that age I would be patient.


----------



## WatchRyder (Feb 22, 2016)

no really said:


> Geez, are you serious?


I think he's on the right track and it's many other people saying the same thing. Feminism, the 2nd wave onwards movement is NOT normal for young girls. It's destroying the gender barriers and it's scary how, even on a homesteading forum, that people like to follow the PC agenda without rocking the boat. Keep rocking that boat Joepa!


----------



## WatchRyder (Feb 22, 2016)

Irish Pixie said:


> Did you intend to hit every hot topic button with this post? If so, you did a great job. :facepalm:


Thanks for the sarcasm Irish, in answer to your other one about the bible being a 'work of fiction' that marks you as an atheist. Please remember this is a Christian-based forum in many ways, so less of the hating on that thanks.


----------



## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

WatchRyder said:


> Please remember this is a Christian-based forum in many ways


:umno: This clearly says Homesteading Today at the top of the page, not Christian Homesteading Today.


----------



## Terri (May 10, 2002)

MDKatie said:


> :umno: This clearly says Homesteading Today at the top of the page, not Christian Homesteading Today.


Yup. All are welcome.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

WatchRyder said:


> Thanks for the sarcasm Irish, in answer to your other one about the bible being a 'work of fiction' that marks you as an atheist. Please remember this is a Christian-based forum in many ways, so less of the hating on that thanks.


Nope. HT is not a christian homesteading forum. 

Perhaps you should work on the whole not hating thing based on your previous posts on this thread. Just sayin'.


----------



## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

You know who loved atheist, cheaters, sinners, etc. the most? Christ! So much so that he even spent time with them and sat down and ate and talked with them. As a Christian, I have no problem hearing the point of view of a non-Christian. I figure if my faith is so weak that what they say affects me, then I need to get back to basics and study Christ's example. Just saying!


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Miss Kay said:


> You know who loved atheist, cheaters, sinners, etc. the most? Christ! So much so that he even spent time with them and sat down and ate and talked with them. As a Christian, I have no problem hearing the point of view of a non-Christian. I figure if my faith is so weak that what they say affects me, then I need to get back to basics and study Christ's example. Just saying!


Good point. You are a credit to christianity, Miss Kay.


----------



## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Lived it with mine. Just told her I loved her and didn't matter as long as she was happy. And she is.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

WatchRyder said:


> Thanks for the sarcasm Irish, in answer to your other one about the bible being a 'work of fiction' that marks you as an atheist. Please remember this is a Christian-based forum in many ways, so less of the hating on that thanks.


Homesteading Today is homesteading focused not religion focused.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

JJ Grandits said:


> Young people are often confused about their sexuality. It's part of growing up. It's great that this girl has the kind of relationship with her mother were this subject could be discussed. Allow her to mature and grow, put no pressure on her, keep the communication going. Only time will tell.
> In college I was good friends with two girls who had a lesbian relationship. It lasted about two years and then slowly ended. these were girls in their late teens. When I hear of young people, 11,12,13,14 announcing they are gay I take a wait and see attitude. "Coming out" is kind of trendy now. I'm not saying that a 13 year old can't make this decision but at that age I would be patient.


I understand your point but I don't certainly don't remember being anything but straight or questioning my sexual orientation so I'm not sure why we assume that gays would. 

I would expect any relationship between a late teen couple to slowly end but I'm not certain that proves that the two women gender confused or not gay but tells me that young people are likely not ready for a long term relationship.


----------



## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

What's the issue? Just love her for the person she is.


----------



## Jlynnp (Sep 9, 2014)

Mish said:


> I just can't help but put myself in this 13 year old girl's shoes. How mortified would I be that someone is discussing my sexual preference (or, honestly, anything having to do with sex, and me) on a message board like it's anyone's business but mine, or that anything could be done about it if it were.
> 
> As my mom loves to say, noneya.


Thank You!! This is not a place to drag this poor young girl through the mud. What ever her sexual preference is or isn't is no ones business but her own. For those who think you can "change" someones sexual preference it is a bunch of crap! From what I have seen from many men I am surprised more women aren't gay. :bandwagon:


----------



## Jlynnp (Sep 9, 2014)

Miss Kay said:


> You know who loved atheist, cheaters, sinners, etc. the most? Christ! So much so that he even spent time with them and sat down and ate and talked with them. As a Christian, I have no problem hearing the point of view of a non-Christian. I figure if my faith is so weak that what they say affects me, then I need to get back to basics and study Christ's example. Just saying!


Wish I could give you a big old hug!!!!:goodjob:


----------



## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

Yes Jesus did associate with sinners - but he did not condone the sins that they were committing - he came to change them - as He told the woman caught committing adultery - "go and sin no more" - 

I have no problem hearing the view of nonbelievers but when given the chance I would tell them my view of things - a lot of people want to justify their sins so they say all kind of things that make them feel good - there are things that are just plain wrong and no matter how someone tries to spin it - it is still wrong - now do I get a hug -


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Yes sir!
One big ole hug coming up!!!!


----------



## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

Wow - that was some kind of hug - thanks


----------



## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

The Bible doesn't say anything about homosexuality because the word wasn't around back then. However God was more focused on having humans obey him and if they didn't do what he wanted, they were punished in various ways. The Bible has numerous accounts of men being close to men and women being close to women in ways you know they were having a gay relationship. With that being said, I could care less. If you live in the city, 1 out of 4 people that you interact daily are gay/lesbian. In the rural parts, it should be statistically the same but due to fears of being found out, it's 1 out of every 8 people that are openly gay/lesbian. The thing is you can't always tell who's gay and who's not. Trust me, my wife has two relatives who are sisters and both are lesbians. They don't look butch or anything. They've always been that way and everyone in the family (we have Christians, Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, etc...and agnostics) loves them for who they are. People. That's it.


----------



## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

Boy - now I heard everything - "the bible doesn't say anything about homosexuality" I will provide just one of the many references to homosexuality in the bible - Romans 2:24 - "Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie ...... For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty off their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do these things which are not proper ......"

Now your going to tell me that there is nothing said about homosexual activity in the bible - on come - give me a break - it sounds to me like you never read the bible 

People that want to keep doing things that are condemned in the bible turn to the age old path of saying that the bible is not the Word of God so they can continue sinning - if you can't kill the message - kill the messenger


----------



## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

I grew up going to church. I was baptized at age 9. I made that decision on my own.

More specifically is there the word: homosexuality in the Bible? No. That was the word I was referring to. However there are some same sex relationships in the Bible. 

I copied and pasted the below messages:

We will attempt to give interpretations of key passages of the Bible from both a conservative (fundamentalist and other evangelical) and from a liberal position. 

Speaking generally:

Conservative Christian theologians tend to accept English translations of the Bible, such as the New International Version (NIV) and the King James Version (KJV) as authoritative. They generally accept the inerrancy of the Bible. They interpret passages literally, unless there is a good reason not to. They consider all Bible passages as instructive in today's society. When they see any same-sex activity condemned, they believe that this applies to all homosexual activities, regardless of the nature of the relationship. Homosexuality is a chosen, unnatural, abnormal, changeable, and perverted lifestyle, which is hated by God.

Liberal Christian theologians tend to follow a wider variety of translations, and to be more concerned with instances of copying errors in the original Hebrew or Greek, of forgeries, and of biases among the translators. They consider some passages (e.g. those referring to slavery, burning some hookers alive, forcing rape victims to marry their rapists, raping female prisoners of war, etc.) as not being valid today, as immoral, and against the will of God. They differentiate among various homosexual and heterosexual sex practices, treating some (rape, prostitution, temple sex rituals) as immoral and some (consesual activity within committed relationships) as positive. 

Ruth and Naomi

Ruth 1:16-17 and 2:10-11 describe their close friendship Perhaps the best known passage from this book is Ruth 1:16-17 which is often read out during either opposite-sex and same-sex marriage and union ceremonies:

"Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if anything but death separates you and me." (NIV)

Ruth 1:14, referring to the relationship between Ruth and Naomi, mentions that "Ruth clave onto her." (KJV) The Hebrew word translated here as "clave" is identical to that used in the description of a heterosexual marriage in Genesis 2:24:

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." (KJV) 

This book was probably included in the Hebrew Scriptures because King David was one of the descendents of Ruth. Although this same-sex friendship appears to have been emotionally very close, there is no proof that it was a sexually active relationship.

David and Jonathan

Passages in 1 Samuel & 2 Samuel describe, among other events, a extremely close bond between David and Jonathan. Jonathan was the son of King Saul, and next in line for the throne. But Samuel anointed David to be the next king. This produced a strong conflict in the mind of Saul.

Interpretation:

Religious conservatives generally view the friendship of David and Jonathan as totally non-sexual. They find it inconceivable that God would allow a famous king of Israel to engage in same-gender sexual activity.

Some religious liberals believe that David and Jonathan had a consensual homosexual relationship - in many ways, a prototype of many of today's gay partnerships. 7 Some important verses which describe their relationship are:

1 Samuel 18:1
"...Jonathan became one in spirit with David and he loved him as himself." (NIV)

"...the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul" (KJV)

Most translations use the term "soul" rather than "spirit" to describe the bond. They speak of an "immediate bond of love", their souls being "in unison," their souls being "knit" etc. Genesis 2:7, as written in the original Hebrew, describes how God blew the spirit into the body of Adam that God had formed from earth, so that Adam became a living soul. This means that "soul", in the ancient Israelite times, represents a combination of body and spirit. Thus the two men appear to have loved each other both physically and emotionally. 

1 Samuel 18:2
"From that day, Saul kept David with him and did not let him return to his father's house." (NIV)

David left his parent's home and moved to Saul's where he would be with Jonathan. This is a strong indication that the relationship was extremely close. It echoes the passage marriage passage in Genesis 2:24: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

1 Samuel 18:3-4
"And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt." (NIV)

Since people in those days did not wear underwear, Jonathan stripped himself naked in front of David. That would be considered extremely unusual behavior (then and now) unless their relationship was sexual in nature. 

1 Samuel 18:20-21
"Now Saul's daughter Michal was in love with David, and when they told Saul about it, he was pleased. 'I will give her to him', he thought, 'so that she may be a snare to him and so that the hand of the Philistines may be against him'. Now you have a second opportunity to become my son-in-law" (NIV)

In the King James Version, the end of Verse 21 reads:

"Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the one of the twain." (KJV)

Saul's belief was that David would be so distracted by a wife that he would not be an effective fighter and would be killed by the Philistines. He offered first his daughter Merab, but that was rejected, presumably by her. Then he offered Michal. There is an interesting phrase used at the end of verse 21. In both the NIV and KJV, it would seem that David's first opportunity to be a son-in-law was with the older daughter Merab, and his second was with the younger daughter Michal. The KJV preserves the original text in its clearest form; it implies that David would become Saul's son-in-law through "one of the twain." "Twain" means "two", so the verse seems to refer to one of Saul's two daughters. Unfortunately, this is a mistranslation. The underlined phrase "the one of" does not exist in the Hebrew original. The words are shown in italics in the King James Version; this is an admission by the translators that they made the words up. Thus, if the KJV translators had been truly honest, they would have written:

"Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the twain."

In modern English, this might be written: "Today, you are son-in-law with two of my children" That would refer to both his son Jonathan and his daughter Michal. The Hebrew original would appear to recognize David and Jonathan's homosexual relationship as equivalent to David and Michal's heterosexual marriage. Saul may have approved or disapproved of the same-sex relationship; but at least he appears to have recognized it. The KJV highlight their re-writing of the Hebrew original by placing the three words in italics; the NIV translation is clearly deceptive. 

1 Samuel 20:41
"After the boy had gone, David got up from the south side of the stone and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with is face to the ground. Then they kissed each other and wept together - but David wept the most." (NIV)

Other translations have a different ending to the verse:
"...and they kissed one another and wept with one another, until David exceeded." (KJV)

"...and they kissed one another and wept with one another until David got control of himself." (Amplified Bible)

"and they sadly shook hands, tears running down their cheeks until David could weep no more." (Living Bible)

"They kissed each other and wept together until David got control of himself." (Modern Language)

"They kissed each other and wept aloud together." (New American Bible)

"Then David and Jonathan kissed each other. They cried together, but David cried the most." (New Century Version)

"Then they kissed one another and shed tears together, until David's grief was even greater than Jonathan's." (Revised English Bible)

"...and they kissed one another and wept with one another until David recovered himself." (Revised Standard Version)

The translators of the Living Bible apparently could not handle the thought of two adult men kissing, so they mistranslated the passage by saying that the two men shook hands! This is somewhat less than honest. The original Hebrew text says that they kissed each other and wept together until David became large. The word which means "became large" in this passage is "gadal" in the original Hebrew. The same word is used elsewhere in the Hebrew Scriptures to refer to King Solomon being greater than all other kings. Some theologians interpret "gadal" in this verse as indicating that David had an erection. However, the thoughts of David becoming sexually aroused after kissing Jonathan may have been too threatening for Bible translators. They either deleted the ending entirely or created one of their own. 

2 Samuel 1:26
"I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women."

In the society of ancient Israel, it was not considered proper for a man and woman to have a platonic relationship. Men and women rarely spoke to each other in public. Since David's only relationships with women would have been sexual in nature, then he must be referring to sexual love here. It would not make sense in this verse to compare platonic love for a man with sexual love for a woman; they are two completely different phenomena. It would appear that David is referring to his sexual love for Jonathan.

Now returning back to my words:

In other words, the Bible translations aren't always accurate. In the Old Testament times, God wanted people to make children so he basically told them to make children and not to engage in same sex relationships because he wanted the Jewish people to increase in numbers. He also wanted them to be obedient to his wishes and he would severely punish them if they disobeyed him which he did in many cases. The New Testament is less strict.

I used to study the Bible in depth growing up because I had some friends who came out as gay. On top of that, one of my childhood friends had her father who is a church elder and a high school principal, come out as gay once his two children were grown and on their own. It was a complete shock to everyone. Turns out when he went on his annual vacation every year with his son, he was meeting up with his boyfriend. His son felt it was the ultimate betrayal but his father had to sit him down and discuss life in general because back then, same sex relationships were considered very bad and the people involved would be in some serious trouble. I think they're on better terms now. I had to explain to my parents what a coming out party was when we got an invitation from him for the party. They were shocked. Nobody in their age category (70 years old to 80 years old) has come out but the younger generation that are in their 60's are definitely starting to come out. I admit it is surprising when that occurs to your friends or family members.

Just got to do more studying and research and decide for yourself.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

wwubben said:


> My relative's 13 year old daughter told her that her friends were all liking boys.She told her mother that she was attracted to girls.How would you handle this situation?


This was the OP.
Can we not turn this into a GC bash-o-rama?
Please?


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

TedH71 said:


> I grew up going to church. I was baptized at age 9. I made that decision on my own.
> 
> More specifically is there the word: homosexuality in the Bible? No. That was the word I was referring to. However there are some same sex relationships in the Bible.
> 
> ...


Thank you for an _on topic_, excellent post.


----------



## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

Don't try to spin the facts - your making a lot of supposes - since you brought in the Old Testament - Lev. 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination" - being a homosexual in itself is not a sin - homosexual activity is - there are a lot of examples in the bible where people sinned - it wasn't considered right by no means - 

In certain cultures today men kiss each other as a sign of friendship or if your in the mafia a sign that you are going to die - has nothing to do with being a homosexual - listen if you want to do things that are wrong you will find all kind of excuses why it isn't wrong - it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it is unnatural and discussing - if someone wants to live in the gutter that is their business just don't spin it to make it sound like it is a good thing - someday those that practiced homosexuality will stand in front of an Almighty God and be judged for their perversion -


----------



## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Thank you Ted for a very in depth study of the subject. As for me, I don't really care either way. It's not listed in the top 10 (check out the 10 commandments) and I don't know anyone who has been able to keep just those 10 rules. Heck, when I was growing up everything was closed on Sunday to honor the Sabbath. Now, our church group is the first in line at the Sunday buffet. I figure when we get to heaven, we are going to all be surprised at who we find there!


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

It might be a good time to remind people that the Family forum is about helping each other in a kind and non judgmental manner. 

The OP did not ask for judgement or to malign a young family member so please phrase your comments accordingly.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

I find it interesting and it brings me great joy to see that that most of the advice you've gotten here seems pretty legit. The correct answer is "There's nothing TO handle, she's pretty young to really be thinking about this seriously anyhow, who cares and why are we so interested in who a 13 year old girl wants to sleep with anyhow?" I think Fennik has it right. It's a bit nuanced but it really comes down to "love her anyhow, be clear and open, and be supportive".

I say "most" because there were two that struck me as inherently awkward at best... the view based on religion and farmboybill's "advice".....

I might be a bit on the :bandwagon: here but...
The biblical answer is only applicable if you both believe in the bible and want the vast hypocrisy of putting sexuality on a pedestal when the same book that forbids it is the book that forbids things like eating shrimp (four times more often than it forbids homosexuality), eating pork, shaving, tattoos, people with testicular injuries from going to church (no cancer patients allowed!), spreading gossip, wearing fabric woven from two types of cloth, divorce and remarriage, women speaking in church and says you should kill unmarried women for not being virgins.... 
Really, but nobody listens to that nonsense. It's pretty commonly considered that it's nonsense claiming that I'm probably going to hell because I wore a cotton poly blend one time... But you can't spin it, you can't change the facts, you can't deny what is written in the Bible... There are a lot of unrepentant people in yoga pants who eat at lobster fest that are going to hell at the same rate as homosexuals. They make NO effort to not buy that Groupon or make sure their clothing is 100% cotton and they just don't care, they probably don't even pray for forgiveness afterwards! So it really comes down to personal comfort levels, not at all what God or the Bible says about how people should behave, and I think it's pretty clear where some people's are here in the thread. There's a certain point where you really are using the bible as an excuse for your own bigotry...

(Having said that, if you also think eating shrimp is wrong, you tell people in the "swine" section of this forum that they're all sinful and going to hell, and you're intent on cutting off your wife's hand if she tries to protect you in a fight... More power to you. I guess it's not just an excuse after all and you actually believe in your religion and value the words that God laid down in the Bible. Because that IS what the bible says. Anyone care to deny it or try to spin it? After all, you can make yourself believe anything is right and find justifications if you try hard enough, right? Because that IS what all the homosexuals do, after all, and THEY'RE still sinners...)

But I have to point out that Farmboybill's advice is actively dangerous. Maybe nothing would happen, maybe he meant making sure that she's ultra-supervised, who knows really... I'm certain it was just not well thought out and not intentionally dangerous... But it could actually put your relative's daughter in the position of getting raped. This is a serious concern. I was 7 when I first experienced a sexual assault and that was by a teenager, so yeah, age isn't a deterrent really.... I'm sure being sexually assulted is a GREAT way to get her to like guys more? Not. Trying to get guys to sex her up is LITERALLY asking her to get sexed up by guys and somehow I don't think that encouraging a potentially risky situation is responsible behavior... And it certainly lacks "family values" and the personal responsibility of not walking blindly into bad situations... Let's try to not literally ask for people to potentially rape a 13 year old girl, ok? Maybe some people will be nice. It happens. But in a world where "she was asking for it" and "girls should dress less sexy if they don't want to be sexually assaulted", this seems like bad advice. Spooky.

But hey, I am a girl, fairly young (I ain't no grandpa that's for sure), I am not christian, I am bi and according to some people this is somehow a christian website. XD So my opinions are probably dismissable here and I have no idea what I'm talking about and am just some some sinful, feminazi, heathen, destroying the fabric of society. Absolutely nothing I say will change your mind if you didn't already know all this. Right? Right. Carry on. :cowboy:

TL;DR?

There's nothing you need to do about this. Some people will hate her for it no matter what you do, it has nothing to do with religion, and that's sad and on them not her. Using the bible as your "reason" to discriminate against homosexuals is as dumb and silly as hating people who eat bacon and has nothing to do with religion. It's a genuine pity that some people may not love her despite it, but it's kind of up to her own emotional growth and maturity (and her parents) to deal with it. PS; please don't accidentally encourage rape or potentially dangerous situations. Also all bigotry is dumb. 

And nah, I'm not going to come back to debate this with ya'll. I've said my piece. Nothing I say will make you think anything but what you already do.

That is all.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

JoePa said:


> Don't try to spin the facts - your making a lot of supposes - since you brought in the Old Testament - Lev. 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination" - being a homosexual in itself is not a sin - homosexual activity is - there are a lot of examples in the bible where people sinned - it wasn't considered right by no means -
> 
> In certain cultures today men kiss each other as a sign of friendship or if your in the mafia a sign that you are going to die - has nothing to do with being a homosexual - listen if you want to do things that are wrong you will find all kind of excuses why it isn't wrong - it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it is unnatural and discussing - if someone wants to live in the gutter that is their business just don't spin it to make it sound like it is a good thing - someday those that practiced homosexuality will stand in front of an Almighty God and be judged for their perversion -


Hang in there...Once it's twisted around it is down to sputtering...have your cake and eat it too.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

TedH71 said:


> If you live in the city, 1 out of 4 people that you interact daily are gay/lesbian. In the rural parts, it should be statistically the same but due to fears of being found out, it's 1 out of every 8 people that are openly gay/lesbian.it.



I suspect there may be a flaw in your reasoning there. For numerous reasons the city could attract a different group of people than in the country. 
Four instance I believe it has been shown that women move to the city from the country more than men and men move to the country from the city more than women.


----------



## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

I had to read that one twice!


----------



## colourfastt (Nov 11, 2006)

WatchRyder said:


> Sit her down and sort it out! It's probably a phase she is going through, not helped by the red diaper teachers and propaganda that schools are drenched in.
> The whole **** thing is kinda outa control these days. At least Putin in on the right track keeping them in the closet so they don't spread it around and get others to have strange ideas. Some seem to think happily gay after? I would argue that ****-folk are mentally wrecked and are more likely to commit suicide than non-homos.
> 
> Historically every society that went out of control with weird behavior like that never did well, *just look at Rome's collapse for a hint.*
> ...


The Roman empire collapsed AFTER Christianity was decreed the official religion.


----------



## Jlynnp (Sep 9, 2014)

Miss Kay said:


> Thank you Ted for a very in depth study of the subject. As for me, I don't really care either way. It's not listed in the top 10 (check out the 10 commandments) and I don't know anyone who has been able to keep just those 10 rules. Heck, when I was growing up everything was closed on Sunday to honor the Sabbath. Now, our church group is the first in line at the Sunday buffet. I figure when we get to heaven, we are going to all be surprised at who we find there!


Thank you Miss Kay!


----------



## tjlmama (Apr 26, 2016)

Ok, I'm new around here but I thought my opinion might be valid on this subject. Hi, I'm Christina. I am a lesbian. 
When I came out to my parents as a teen, I was told it was a phase and that I would grow out of it. I'm now 33 years old and married to a wonderful woman and we have 3 kids. My parents have grown to love my wife as their own daughter. Our children are happy, healthy, and well adjusted people. 
Eventually people will look at gay couples the same way that mixed race couples are seen today. As not a big deal. To my children's friends, it's not a big deal. 
Best thing mom could do is say, "ok" and be done. If the daughter is made to feel like she is doing something wrong, she will probably sneak around and get hurt. 
And of course there is a chance that this is a phase that she will grow out of it. Maybe not.
Sexual it isn't a this OR that issue. It's very much on a spectrum.
That's just my 2 cents.


----------



## Fire-Man (Apr 30, 2005)

tjlmama said:


> Ok, I'm new around here but I thought my opinion might be valid on this subject. Hi, I'm Christina. I am a lesbian.
> When I came out to my parents as a teen, I was told it was a phase and that I would grow out of it. I'm now 33 years old and married to a wonderful woman and we have 3 kids. My parents have grown to love my wife as their own daughter. Our children are happy, healthy, and well adjusted people.
> Eventually people will look at gay couples the same way that mixed race couples are seen today. As not a big deal. To my children's friends, it's not a big deal.
> Best thing mom could do is say, "ok" and be done. If the daughter is made to feel like she is doing something wrong, she will probably sneak around and get hurt.
> ...




Welcome to the forum, We have something in common, we both Like Women. I have joked all my life that I got to be got some Lesbian in me Cause I sure Love Me Some Women!!

Now having said that, I have a question---why does a Lesbian, gay male etc feel they have to come out and tell the world they are a Lesbian/Gay?? Why Not be gay/Lesbian and forget it. I never see "straights" come out and say I am a Woman and I Love Me a Man etc. Just Curious why they feel the need to Admit it or tell their preferred mate??


----------



## tjlmama (Apr 26, 2016)

Fire-Man said:


> Now having said that, I have a question---why does a Lesbian, gay male etc feel they have to come out and tell the world they are a Lesbian/Gay?? Why Not be gay/Lesbian and forget it. I never see "straights" come out and say I am a Woman and I Love Me a Man etc. Just Curious why they feel the need to Admit it or tell their preferred mate??


Why? Because people will assume we are straight. 
Straight people rarely have to come out as straight because it is assumed that they are straight. (Although, I did have a boss who people assumed was gay till his drop dead gorgeous wife showed up)

I am fairly girly and my hair has been rather long lately. I love dresses and ribbons and lace. I think it is hilarious when people tell me "you don't look gay" as if there is a look. I'm a woman who looks like a woman. My wife keeps her hair short but she also is pretty feminine. She wears dresses more than I do. 

People tend to assume that all people are like all other people and it's just not so.


----------



## Fire-Man (Apr 30, 2005)

tjlmama said:


> Why? Because people will assume we are straight.
> Straight people rarely have to come out as straight because it is assumed that they are straightPeople tend to assume that all people are like all other people and it's just not so.


 So?? If people assume you are or are not---whats wrong with that---let them assume. I have known Gay/Lesbians for many many years-----back in the 1960/70's/etc ---Or I Assumed they were----because they Never said they were. They hang around with their partner, do things with their partner but have never felt it was anyones business what they preferred. If some straight male hits on you---just tell him you are taken---why the need to point it out? What you or anyone prefers is your business and I do not see it anyone elses business but yours---Just Saying!!


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Well, Fireman, you're a reasonable guy and I know you are in the rabbits forum a lot. Imagine for a moment walking into a circle of vegans and proclaiming your profession as a connoisseur of rabbit meat to them. It's probably a bad idea. They will immediately malign you over something that really doesn't effect them, but they think nobody should be doing. They will make arguments about how it's morally wrong and unnatural to eat meat. Now, as rabbit raisers we know that these arguments of natural and moral are debatable at best, and flat out wrong at worst. But nothing we say will change the minds in a room full of die-hard vegans. They might even get violent. Vegans get violent at me for that same reason. They've thrown things at me and screamed in my face. You know what I'm talking about?

Some people have experienced this in the rabbit forum. Some folks have gone quiet, or in the closet as it were, about raising rabbits for meat and don't tell their family and friends because of it. You've talked to those people I'm sure. Some of them wear their anti-vegetarian-ism as a badge of pride. "I raise rabbits and I'm proud of it. I tell people about how much healthier my meat is and how well this works out for me! Lemme share my sausage recipe with you! Yum yum! Meat! I can't imagine being a vegetarian! Those folks are dumb! Delicious meat! MEAT." Some people are kind of inbetween and only educate/inform if there seems like a genuine interest. I'm sure you've seen this sometimes.

Well, coming out as gay is kinda the same thing. Nobody who is gay would proclaim it with such a gusto if it weren't for the proverbial gay-version of vegans running around telling them what to do and how to do it. None of them would be in the closet either. It just wouldn't matter. But because they face hardship for it, some folks get a chip on their shoulder. It's "brave" to stand up and say "I am gay" the same way it's brave to stand up and say "I raise rabbits for meat" in order to be honest and stick to your ideals. And hopefully the response is "Good for you." and that's it. But sadly, especially in an anti-gay setting, it often feels more like trying to explain that you raise rabbits at a vegan convention. And it becomes a defining moment for some people, one that divides families and friends. And it's become a defining moment for so many people that it's gotten a reputation as if it were somehow more important than stating any other fact about one's self.

I would like to be able to tell everyone that I am gay and I raise rabbits for meat and have nobody care about it. But the flack I get for either is remarkably similar with remarkably similar arguments! Nobody bats an eye if you tell them you are straight and grow tomatoes. But being gay and raising rabbits are "immoral" and "unnatural" to some people. So telling someone that takes on a whole 'nother meaning. It means they trust you enough to let you know a fact about themselves that they've been hurt for revealing before.

I think the whole thing is actually fascinating in a way. But rest assured. All gay folks want is for saying "I'm gay" to be a boring thing to say, like saying "I'm from germany" or "I'm a farmer".  Nobody who is gay thinks it should be a big deal until someone else makes it that. Like this thread.


----------



## tjlmama (Apr 26, 2016)

Fire-Man said:


> So?? If people assume you are or are not---whats wrong with that---let them assume. I have known Gay/Lesbians for many many years-----back in the 1960/70's/etc ---Or I Assumed they were----because they Never said they were. They hang around with their partner, do things with their partner but have never felt it was anyones business what they preferred. If some straight male hits on you---just tell him you are taken---why the need to point it out? What you or anyone prefers is your business and I do not see it anyone elses business but yours---Just Saying!!


Because I'm not ashamed of my relationship. Because I refuse to hid in the closet to make anyone else comfortable. Because straight people talk about their relationships freely. I don't walk up to people and say "hi, I'm a lesbian". I did here to give a background. 
But I will talk freely about my wife because she's fantastic. 

Why must I stay silent? Are Christians aloud to say "I am a Christian"? May Muslims acknowledge their faith?

I am a mom. Should I stay silent about that? Maybe only acknowledge that I am their mother after people assume I'm the teenaged baby sitter. (I look very young)

In many cases people come out in order to be heard and understood. Many times "I'm gay" is followed by a silent "please don't hate me"


----------



## Fire-Man (Apr 30, 2005)

tjlmama said:


> Because I'm not ashamed of my relationship. Because I refuse to hid in the closet to make anyone else comfortable. Because straight people talk about their relationships freely. I don't walk up to people and say "hi, I'm a lesbian". I did here to give a background.
> But I will talk freely about my wife because she's fantastic.
> 
> Why must I stay silent? Are Christians aloud to say "I am a Christian"? May Muslims acknowledge their faith?
> ...


I read what you are saying, I guess with me---you do not have to explain what you prefer, it's your business---I see you as a human being, just as black, white, red, etc, etc. Its Doesn't matter---we all put out Pants on the same Way, I am not prejudice so I will treat you as a equal. But I am not your boss either so I would Not tell you what you can do or not Do!! If you feel the need to tell the World-----go for it----I just wanted to know why----you answered that----Welcome!!!


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Some people are more conservative than others. Many people DON'T talk about it, or anything else, because it's nobody else's business. Many people are very open about their life because they don't mind others knowing.
Some people do because they want to inform someone about a fact that's important to them or helps define who they are. 
Some people don't out of fear, and some people do just to combat that fear. 
It all depends on individual ego and needs. It really shouldn't matter and more than stating any other fact. Nobody should care, it's their life not yours.
Some people care a whole lot. And on both sides, this is silly. Extremism directly against the opposition solves nothing.
It should be a non-issue.

Thanks for trying to understand, Fireman.


----------



## tjlmama (Apr 26, 2016)

Fire-Man said:


> I read what you are saying, I guess with me---you do not have to explain what you prefer, it's your business---I see you as a human being, just as black, white, red, etc, etc. Its Doesn't matter---we all put out Pants on the same Way, I am not prejudice so I will treat you as a equal. But I am not your boss either so I would Not tell you what you can do or not Do!! If you feel the need to tell the World-----go for it----I just wanted to know why----you answered that----Welcome!!!


Thank you. I hope I'm coming across like I want to. I'm trying to be informative but not belligerent. My wife says I need to work on my tact. Lol. 

Also my current boss is a gay man so... lol


----------



## tjlmama (Apr 26, 2016)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Some people care a whole lot. And on both sides, this is silly. Extremism directly against the opposition solves nothing.
> It should be a non-issue.
> 
> Thanks for trying to understand, Fireman.


This. Very much


----------



## farmer9989 (Apr 22, 2008)

listen to the music they have now you won't wonder why.what is happening to our youth


----------



## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

wr said:


> Before discussion gets too heated, I'd like to remind people that Families is about helpful advise and the OP didn't ask for judgment nor did they ask advice on reprogramming so keep your comments civil.


The OP asked in a public forum how should the situation be handled. Reprogramming is a tactic that some might use to handle the situation. Please don't let your personal biases get in the way of your moderation. Just because you don't approve does not mean you should squelch civil comments, he said as respectfully and civilly as he knew how in the hopes that a plea for relatively unbiased moderation would be respected.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmer9989 said:


> listen to the music they have now you won't wonder why.what is happening to our youth


That's what they said about Elvis over 60 years ago


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

farmer9989 said:


> listen to the music they have now you won't wonder why.what is happening to our youth


"The counts of the indictment are luxury, bad manners, contempt for authority, disrespect to elders, and a love for chatter in place of exercise. &#8230;

Children began to be the tyrants, not the slaves, of their households. They no longer rose from their seats when an elder entered the room; they contradicted their parents, chattered before company, gobbled up the dainties at table... They tyrannised over the paidagogoi and schoolmasters."

This was a quote from 1907.

Please continue to complain about this new generation. How special you must be to have been completely perfect in your youth and completely different from this new generation.
I'm certain you were born before 1907 after all so this quote isn't about you in the slightest.
The ideals some people profess in this thread would certainly implicate that, sadly.

As for DEKE's comment, a simple glance at the wiki article should be sufficient. (Though I know it won't be for most.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy
Every single respectable national and international organization that isn't Christian thinks the whole thing is an abusive sham.

The American Psychology Association says;
"Report of the APA Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation
The task force conducted a systematic review of the peer-reviewed journal literature on sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE) and concluded that efforts to change sexual orientation are unlikely to be successful and involve some risk of harm, contrary to the claims of SOCE practitioners and advocates.
Even though the research and clinical literature demonstrate that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings and behaviors are normal and positive variations of human sexuality, regardless of sexual orientation identity, the task force concluded that the population that undergoes SOCE tends to have strongly conservative religious views that lead them to seek to change their sexual orientation.
Thus, the appropriate application of affirmative therapeutic interventions for those who seek SOCE involves therapist acceptance, support and understanding of clients and the facilitation of clients&#8217; active coping, social support and identity exploration and development, without imposing a specific sexual orientation identity outcome."

The US Department of Health and Human Services agrees and is calling for bans on all conversion therapy. And so does the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. Which means that _this country's OFFICIAL policy is that LGB is not a mental illness and should not be treated as such and that conversion therapy is ethically and morally wrong._ That is the OFFICIAL POLICY based on SCIENCE. And no amount of denial will change the results of any independent peer-reviewed study on the subject. Host your own and you will see the same results.

Or in other words, "reprogramming" actually shows no factual evidence whatsoever of working and the whole thing is snake oil. As much as people on this site say that herbal medicine is bunk and raw milk doesn't work and GMOs are safe and we're all crazy for ignoring THAT evidence. But the most respected mental health care organizations in and outside of the country say that independent testing shows conversion therapy to be harmful and useless... But somehow it's still OK and those other things are just snake oil? Gimme a break.

And lastly, the federal government is also starting to take a stand on it. Which means that people seeking conversion therapy for their kids could actually be starting to see child and family services involved in what is actually, factually, scientifically proven to be child abuse.

If nothing else, people who claim to practice these therapies are getting sued and shut down, slowly, one at a time. How much does the family want to risk the negative outcomes for child abuse? 
Even if you think it isn't child abuse, some people think beating your children senseless, locking them in cages, forcing them to be strapped into posture chairs, selling them as slaves, using them as slaves, forcing them into child labor, or even raping them is somehow not child abuse. MANY things that are now considered child abuse were considered "the right thing to do" 100 years ago. Just because you think it's OK to hurt some kid doesn't make it so. And if, ultimately, all that stands between someone abusing a child or not is a law saying that they can't do it, no matter how sincerely held their beliefs, then so be it.

I don't really care about your beliefs at all in that situation. You can BELIEVE and SAY anything you want and I will fight for your right to do so. You can ignore years of evidence stacked up against you and claim that the cold, hard, peer-reviewed, scientific fact that conversion therapy is snake oil at best and seriously dangerous at worst is somehow nonsense. But the moment you start genuinely suggesting abusing children I have no qualms in breaking out the child services card and reminding someone of the potential legal consequences.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), the OP never came back to this thread and we have no knowledge of what the PARENTS in this situation think, since the OP isn't their parent and really shouldn't be "doing" anything at all. But I do hope it makes some people think twice since our OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT POLICY is that it's harmful and suggesting "reprogramming" (aka, conversion therapy) could someday soon wind up with the people taking their advice ending up in a jail cell... In fact, suggesting it (or providing resources for it) could wind up becoming an accessory to crime the same way hooking someone up with a meth dealer is. Some food for thought.


----------



## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

I just read the part about a gay rabbit farmer. Oh my that's funny but a great analogy. I used to sell pork at the farmers market and the vegans would walk as far away from our booth as possible as if my pork was going to contaminate them or something. One of them wasn't paying attention as she walked by and asked my son what we were selling. When he told her she got that awful look on her face and said "you actually raise them and then eat them" to which my son answered, "No, we kill them first".


----------



## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

For the record chocolate mouse, I agree that conversion therapy is at least a stupid waste of time and at worst potentially fatal to an impressionable teen. That is why I do not want a mod to silence discussion of the topic. It is better to discuss and condemn than simply be silent.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

That's very fair. I'm sorry for being testy. Some people may very well suggest this it's a horrible idea. My sincere apologies for taking it out on you. It sounded like something you were attempting to endorse and I'm so glad that's not the case.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Deleted by me


----------



## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Getting back to the 13 yr old....An adolescent of that age is re-running very young issues that have nothing to do with what most adults view as sexuality. Were a daughter of mine saying something like that, I would automatically think she is more comfortable with the same sex than with the opposite sex for "social" reasons. Her saying she is "attracted" to girls has the ring of social media in the word itself and may not mean the same thing to her as it does to others. At such times it is more important to listen than to give advice.

In this world so much of our natures are "warped"...yes warped...by what is around us and what we spend much of our time with. Social media with so much internet available to the young contributes as much and sometimes more than the family. When one is making efforts to live "spiritually" the contridictions become even more apparent. *No child ever gets out of childhood with a full deck!* We all have been influenced by those around us to make decisions as to who we are and how to live. Many young people are not even permitted to grow up and think for themselves. Some have found it easier to let others define their lives for them. *No matter what the situation, each and every human being is responsible for themselves.* They can follow the dictates of this world or they can follow a spiritual path. (The choice is theirs.) The best thing we can do for our children and for others is to "listen" without judging and without interpreting what is said. If we are spiritual parents we elicit the help of the Holy Spirit. Then we love unconditionally. This does not mean we have to accept behaviors around us that are uncomfortable. It may actually mean we learn to live with pain as we watch those we care so deeply about making decisions that bring distress to themselves.

I firmly believe many so-called adults are confused/anxious about who they, themselves, are; and this contributes to the turmoil of the young they are mentoring. A spiritual person believing the Bible is the actual Word of God can take this Book and go sit under a tree asking for God's help in understanding what is read. Then whatever is unclear, simply look in that same Book for clarification. However, a non-believer so often runs and re-runs what his/her own head is saying with nowhere to turn for understanding except the contradictory familial and/or social environment that put it there. I firmly believe this is why my Heavenly Father cautioned man to "...work out his own salvation with fear and trembling..." Our sexuality is only one component of this. 

What confuses me most is the way man defines the sexual aspects of his/her life. I do not believe God gave us anything unclean; and even our defacation is not suppose to be painful or unpleasant. I think that just as having a good bowel movement cleanses the body of un-needed elements; so sexual engagement cleans the nerves. Yet the evil in this world twisted and contorts so much of our lives that we eat things that make our bowel movements stink and behave in ways that keep our nerves tight. No, I do not think my Heavenly Father put man on earth to have sexual encounters with other men (or woman to woman); and I think the Bible confirms this belief. I think it is just another component of the wonderful God-given life that has been distorted by man himself. Now don't jump on me about my belief. I'm not imposing it on you. I think my above statements confirm my belief is that each is *entitled *to choose for themselves how they will live.


----------



## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Oh my, this thread has gone to poop now!


----------



## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

Mot' - couldn't have said it any better myself - we live in a world where good and evil are fighting for the souls of men and women - those of us who do believe in God and follow His word have a path to follow - those that don't just go with the flow which carries them down the path of sin - 

People think its cool to tolerate any type of behavior even if it is out and out wrong - that is why the world is in the shape it is in - homosexual behavior is wrong - it is not natural and flies in the face of what God intended - 

A parent should buy their little girl dolls, and other things that little girls should play with and you have her participate in things that girls would normally get involved with - and the same with boys - buy your boy things that a boy should play with and get him involved in sports, hunting, etc. - too often parents get their kids involved in things that are not meant for the gender of the child - I think getting girls involved in all these sports that were traditionally played by boys is a big mistake - girls are trying to get stronger, run faster, jump higher etc. and pretty soon they look and act like boys - 

Years ago girls were girls and men were men - you could tell a girl walking down the sidewalk was a girl from the way she walked - today you have to look twice because she walks like a lumberjack - and if you say anything to her she might try to punch you out - yes baby you have come a long way but unfortunately it is in the wrong direction - Joe


----------



## tlrnnp67 (Nov 5, 2006)

JoePa said:


> Mot' - couldn't have said it any better myself - we live in a world where good and evil are fighting for the souls of men and women - those of us who do believe in God and follow His word have a path to follow - those that don't just go with the flow which carries them down the path of sin -
> 
> People think its cool to tolerate any type of behavior even if it is out and out wrong - that is why the world is in the shape it is in - homosexual behavior is wrong - it is not natural and flies in the face of what God intended -
> 
> ...


Preach it brother!!

If we ain't careful, them uppity women is gonna be a asking for the right to vote or worse yet, get paid the same as us men for workin the same job when they should be in the kitchen makin us sammiches, anyway!

:facepalm:


----------



## Ozarka (Apr 15, 2007)

I have been baptized three times and none of 'em took...
Started out in the Southern Baptist cult, then joined them Mormons fer a spell. Baptism for the dead? Yeah, right...

Anyone who uses the "holy" bible as an undisputed Authority for Life obviously has chosen to ignore a lot; the actual history of the "document" Snipped, whittled, censored, edited for convenience, warped by those who paid for the translation & edit, it goes on and on. Look up the Council of Trent. 

The Buddha probably said it better than JC, but the Religionists of this day have turned Xianity into a Cult of Personality...married to jesus!...really....get a grip, listen to the man's teachings...Rogers Ark. has this corporate church with these enormously tall crosses...my Jesus is bigger than yours is...if you can find them as He spoke them. Curious collection of tattered, torn and tainted words. Yes, Great Truth is in there but great amounts that are critical have been removed...the Greek Orthodox Church folks had control of the book in the first 200 years after the Power Structure took him out and they snipped everything out pertaining to reincarnation...omg he said it...yes, you Churchians, even you have been here before and other places again and again and again....

Good coffee this morning. 

Leave children to discover their own sexual identity; a friend overheard his young twins arguing one morning about "...but you got my body..." The boy is slight, feminine, and totally gay and his sister is stocky, large boned and has other masculine attributes. It shows me that there is more to the story... Like, does the soul inhabit the fetus 100% of the time, 9 months or just visit from time to time? The questions are Vast, contemporary Xians' dogma answers few. 

"Leave them kids alone" as the immortal Pink Floyd sez

If you have ever wondered about the authenticity of the king james virgin of the holy bibble, I suggest delving into _Conversations with God..._
I personally choose to believe that many enlightened minds are among us, God speaks to every generation in words they can comprehend. A 2,000 year old Authority with the number of bullet holes it has, has little relevance to me. Viewed through a slightly different lens...when reading the New Testament, substitute "the Law of Karma says" for "Jesus said" and quit trying to make the Universe fit inside your tiny, torn book...


----------



## CurtisWilliams (Mar 14, 2005)

OK, it is time for my two cents. Or more.

As a young boy I knew that I was a bit 'different'. My mother was pretty open minded, and my father was yery conservative. When I hit puberty, my friends started liking and lusting after girls, while I liked and lusted after my friends. I wanted to be with them, to do the things that they bragged about doing with girls, and enjoy the physical and emotional intimacy that they were having. 

I was denied this. I lived in a small conservative city, and we had one openly gay kid in school. He was ostracized. People called him Tammy instead of Tommy, he was bullied and beaten. He didn't dare use the boy's bathroom, instead he was given permission to use the teachers restroom. 

Tommy was a few years older than I was, I think that he graduated when I was a sophomore. 

As I watched the humiliation and torture that this child was put thru by his peers, I became more and more closeted. No one knew how I felt. No one knew what I was feeling. My childhood sucked. I had NO ONE.

Fast forward decades. I've recently come out to my Godson's parents. They have been great with this disclosure. After a lifetime of isolation and loneliness, I have online friends. I am getting more social, but I am still a wallflower in social situations.

This young lady needs the resources and freedom to understand her own feelings. Then she might not become the emotional wreck that I am.

I wish her the best. It wasn't easy for me, I pray that she has it better than I did.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

CurtisWilliams said:


> OK, it is time for my two cents. Or more.
> 
> As a young boy I knew that I was a bit 'different'. My mother was pretty open minded, and my father was yery conservative. When I hit puberty, my friends started liking and lusting after girls, while I liked and lusted after my friends. I wanted to be with them, to do the things that they bragged about doing with girls, and enjoy the physical and emotional intimacy that they were having.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your story.


----------



## CurtisWilliams (Mar 14, 2005)

WatchRyder said:


> Sit her down and sort it out! It's probably a phase she is going through, not helped by the red diaper teachers and propaganda that schools are drenched in.
> The whole **** thing is kinda outa control these days. At least Putin in on the right track keeping them in the closet so they don't spread it around and get others to have strange ideas. Some seem to think happily gay after? I would argue that ****-folk are mentally wrecked and are more likely to commit suicide than non-homos.
> 
> Historically every society that went out of control with weird behavior like that never did well, just look at Rome's collapse for a hint.
> ...


 WOW. How shallow can you get? WatchRyder, GET A CLUE!!!


----------



## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

Curtis - I'm sorry that you were born this way - a person in my family has Downs Syndrome - my FIL was an alcoholic - there are a lot of people born with mental or physical abnormalities - what counts is how you deal with them - if you are born with a bad temper do you go through life abusing others - I hope not - being different in it self is not wrong but what you do about it depends on you belief system - in Christianity and the other major religions homosexual activity is considered wrong - so its up to you - if you decide to get into a homosexual relationship you need to realize that there are going to be a lot of people who think what you are doing is wrong and may not want any thing to do with you - and they will in all likelihood be against gay marriage and any other push to accept the homosexual agenda - 

Life is short - believe me - I'm an old man and I look back on my life and can't believe how time has flown by - all I can say is when a person is dealing with a problem a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is often the only way to gain victory over the problem - good luck


----------



## CurtisWilliams (Mar 14, 2005)

JoePa said:


> Curtis - I'm sorry that you were born this way - a person in my family has Downs Syndrome - my FIL was an alcoholic - there are a lot of people born with mental or physical abnormalities - what counts is how you deal with them - if you are born with a bad temper do you go through life abusing others - I hope not - being different in it self is not wrong but what you do about it depends on you belief system - in Christianity and the other major religions homosexual activity is considered wrong - so its up to you - if you decide to get into a homosexual relationship you need to realize that there are going to be a lot of people who think what you are doing is wrong and may not want any thing to do with you - and they will in all likelihood be against gay marriage and any other push to accept the homosexual agenda -
> 
> Life is short - believe me - I'm an old man and I look back on my life and can't believe how time has flown by - all I can say is when a person is dealing with a problem a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is often the only way to gain victory over the problem - good luck


 Joe, I find your response quite amusing, and after reading your other answers quite predictable.

First of all, do not pity me. I do not. 

Second, your fil's sobriety has nothing to do with my orientation. It is a moot point comparing apples to zebras. 

Third, my step sister whom was oxygen starved at birth and VERY developmentally delayed has nothing to do with my orientation. More elephants to oranges. 

Fourth. comparing what happens consentually to abusing someone else is at best a VERY LONG stretch. How is physical abuse comparable to fun under the covers? 

Fifth. In your post, you indicated that I was born this way. And by your own beliefs God made me. Therefore, God made me this way. God made me want to have sex with men, by your logic. If God found this an abomination, yes I've studied the Bible, why would he have made me this way? Leviticus was a great read, btw.

Next (I've lost count of the flaws in your argument). I don't care about how anyone feels about my desires. I came to terms with them a long time ago. There is only one person that I need to impress. And he is at my keyboard right now. 

Next, marriage is a legal arrangement. It shouldn't be. Whom I spend the night with is NOT Goober's business.

Next, there is no homosexual agenda. We simply want to live life without society breathing down our necks. This is about the right wing trying to impose it's values on others.

Next, I am not dealing with a problem. I do not have a problem. It is those who refuse to accept the differences within our society that have the problem.

If you can, please refute me. 

I await your response.

Peace,
Curtis


----------



## RazrRebel (Apr 16, 2013)

Everyone discusses homosexuality as normal behavior. The decline of any civilized nation starts with the downturn of morality. I know we have came along way from the 1900's, but our nations morality is getting worse everyday. I am a christian and feel as JoePa does. We as christians are tasked to love everybody. We do our best, and ask forgiveness when we fail. There is a lot more people that's harder to love than homosexuals. Just because everybody's doing it doesn't make it right. It's not just homosexuality though. Just turn on the T.V. and listen to the language. You never heard crude and vulgar language like that 50 years ago. People dressing half naked. I think society as a whole has become desensitized to our surroundings. We could go on all day about homosexuals and the bible. The fact is, if we had only had nothing but homosexuals they're would have been only one couple. It takes a man and a woman to make more men and women. If you believe in evolution that's how nature planned it, as for me I believe GOD created it that way. Still loving one another is more important and just for the record I'm 48.


----------



## RichNC (Aug 22, 2014)

I am just going to say I support Mr. C. Williams and all the other folks that have come out with their stories on this thread, you sound like amazing wonderful people, people I would be proud to call friends!


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Actually, RazrRebel, if you believe in evolution you also probably believe in science in general. You then probably believe in things like how normal behavior in bonobos, gorillas, chimps, etc show that homosexuality (and especially, bisexuality) exists in some of our closest relatives. If you're especially fond of learning about biology you might even know all the creepy things about homosexual duck necrophilia and their violent and indiscriminate sexual culture. You also probably believe that in studies of mass populations (such as the beautiful ones study with mice) they were telling the truth wen they described natural rises in homosexuality and lack of viable reproduction.

Actually, I love looking at the Beautiful Ones study. It really mirrors some of our own problems in the current world (lack of space, over crowding, "easy" access to resources) and we're seeing a similar series of naturally occurring behavioral changes. More dominant women, men splitting into less dominant men and wildly violent men, lack of concern for children, rising cases of homosexuality, many fewer births and focusing on solitary pursuits. Many people theorize that it's nature's built-in apocalyptic shut down switch for overpopulation. It's got nothing to do with the individuals. It's not like the mice were somehow vindictive or evil for behaving that way, or chose to behave that way. It was a normal, natural, counter-evolutionary reaction to their circumstances. Like running from a hiding spot when you're too scared, right into the jaws of a predator.

I would love to see the study repeated on a larger scale. Perhaps with finches or some similarly small animal to see if it is cross-species. Unfortunately, right now all we can say for certain is that apocalyptic shut down behavior exists in mice.

But it's still normal, natural AND counter-evolutionary. Science is fascinating like that. We don't know everything yet and some answers are just out of reach. Neat, huh?  I'll take "we're descending into a massive apocalyptic doom because of massive big-picture failings in out infrastructure design with cities, farms, healthcare, over-population, etc" as still probably more likely than "Because God felt like it".

It would even explain why the Amish population is the fastest growing population in the US. Not because of "god" but because they still have to work to survive.

The science of homosexuality and reproductive decline is so interesting to me.


----------



## RazrRebel (Apr 16, 2013)

The freedom that we have in our country lets us agree to disagree. You prefer your opinions and I prefer mine. I'll fight for you to keep your opinions, even if I disagree with them. I was a soldier for a few years. Thanks for the information.


----------



## CurtisWilliams (Mar 14, 2005)

Razr, you brought up a very valid point. It takes a sperm and an egg to reproduce. But the rest of your logic is flawed. Gay people are not immoral. Sex is not immoral. You didn't say anything about marraige but sex outside of marriage is not immoral. If two people find pleasure in something that affects no one else, how is that immoral? You talk about either God or Mother Nature planning for men and women to be together. Yet I can not choose whom I am attracted to. So obviously God or Mother Nature planned something else. Take a look at the big picture. Think outside man made Bible passages. No one knows your God's will, including you.

And getting back to the sperm and egg. We are drastically overpopulating the Earth. We are destroying its resources. We are polluting it at an unbeleiveable level. So what is the issue with a percentage of the population not creating more people?


----------



## tjlmama (Apr 26, 2016)

Curtis, let's be honest now. There are some homosexual agendas. Currently I use a Filofax ;-)


----------



## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

Well Curtis - where do I start - first off God created a perfect world but because of sin He cursed creation - that is why things are not perfect - God didn't make you a **** - it was a fault of nature - just like so many others things that people are born with - man can aspire to become an individual that is worthy of praise - of clean good character - or can crawl into the gutter and commit all kinds of ungodly things -

Obviously you don't believe in God - I assume you believe that this world and everything in it is just one big accident - we are just another form of animal - with that kind of foundation what can one expect - there is no right or wrong - everything goes - no absolutes - well let me tell you something - there is a God and He has given us a Savior so we can have a relationship with Himself - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that God made them male and female for a purpose - it's the natural order of things - so naturally when someone comes along and wants to have sex with someone with like gender that person needs to get rid of God - how else can he feel good about what he is doing - 

And this thought that God made you this way and so you can go ahead and do what you want - I guess that also applies to someone who wants to steal, kill, and do every other bad thing - just do it because I feel like doing it and God made me that way - give me a break 

And yes there is a homosexual agenda - they want their twisted view of life accepted as normal - but I'll tell you some thing - it ain't gonna happen as long as there are God fearing people on this earth who know the difference between good and evil - 

So in ending let me say this - be glad that you don't live in a Muslim country where they throw homosexuals off buildings - do what you do but I'd wouldn't go around bragging about it - lots of luck -


----------



## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Curtis, what a brave man you are. Thank you for sharing your story. I too am a Christian and I can tell you God loves you just as much as he loves anyone. Stop reading this stuff. You are never going to change anyone's mind and words do hurt. Don't let them make you feel any less than, you are not. You are a wonderful person just the way you are. Don't read the poison and you'll not have to deal with it. I hope you don't let them keep you from knowing Christ because he is there for you too, you the way you are.


----------



## Ozarka (Apr 15, 2007)

I find it fascinating that a group of otherwise ignorant people can cherry pick the verses of the bible to rationalize their hating or using or killing another group of humans. You did this with slavery, you are still slaughtering black folks in the streets, you let up a bit on redheads and lefties and no longer scream from the pulpit that their differences make then Satan's spawn.... But your church has manipulated your kind throughout history to maintain control, the invention of the Devil was a brilliant idea; it absolves you of personal accountability for your actions and thoughts...your pathetically thin reasoning leaves no room for the actual history of the Church or the Book but if you were actually interested in Spirituality and our place in the great scheme of things you will make many surprising discoveries.
Satan and Hell are an invention of the Church to keep slow thinking people in line. Hitler went to Heaven; how could a soul progress if "it" spent "eternity" burning in a fire filled "hell"? You are a prime example of the "Religion is an opiate of the masses"
You want a flower scented world with pretty, well behaved (white, of course)girls in shiny patent leather shoes with their handsome suitors sitting across the aisle and fried chicken waiting on Aunt Bee's table but that world is the fantasy you live in. Meanwhile this "Christian" nation keeps murdering millions of brown skinned people to show the world how much we care about them and the oil beneath their feet. You are blinded by the smoke screen of propaganda and cannot see the tragedies committed continually by your Xian Cult and the Government that claims to trust in god. I only hope you have the experiences you need in order to raise your own consciousness to quit condemning others who are not as righteous and perfect and all knowing as you are. You were born to grow into something higher than you seem to have achieved so far, think its time you looked a little further than a church bulletin for Spiritual growth. Good luck, it's scary out here in the real world...just remember Mayberry is a myth...


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JoePa said:


> Well Curtis - where do I start - first off God created a perfect world but because of sin He cursed creation - that is why things are not perfect - God didn't make you a **** - it was a fault of nature - just like so many others things that people are born with - man can aspire to become an individual that is worthy of praise - of clean good character - or can crawl into the gutter and commit all kinds of ungodly things -
> 
> Obviously you don't believe in God- I assume you believe that this world and everything in it is just one big accident - we are just another form of animal - with that kind of foundation what can one expect - there is no right or wrong - everything goes - no absolutes - well let me tell you something - there is a God and He has given us a Savior so we can have a relationship with Himself - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that God made them male and female for a purpose - it's the natural order of things - so naturally when someone comes along and wants to have sex with someone with like gender that person needs to get rid of God - how else can he feel good about what he is doing -
> 
> ...


This is Countryside Families, so I'm not going to say what I really think about this post, other than it's not an example of *real* Christian behavior.

You shouldn't "go around bragging" either


----------



## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

Miss Kay said:


> Curtis, what a brave man you are. Thank you for sharing your story. I too am a Christian and I can tell you God loves you just as much as he loves anyone. Stop reading this stuff. You are never going to change anyone's mind and words do hurt. Don't let them make you feel any less than, you are not. You are a wonderful person just the way you are. Don't read the poison and you'll not have to deal with it. I hope you don't let them keep you from knowing Christ because he is there for you too, you the way you are.


With all due respect Miss Kay - If you are a Christian I hope you are not condoning homosexual relationships - sure God loves all people but not their sin - to be a Christian you must follow the bible otherwise you are only fooling yourself - and there is nothing clearer in the bible that such relationships are wrong - I don't consider it poison when you tell someone what God thinks of this kind of behavior - just like the woman caught in adultery - Jesus forgave her but He told her to go and sin no more - He didn't tell her to keep doing what was wrong


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

JoePa, since you seem intent on not allowing people to live and let live, I am setting a clear goal post for you. The bible also says that eating shrimp and wearing mixed fibers is a sin, as well as that you should kill women who are not virgins when they are married. These things are named as much as homosexuality if not more often. There are many, many, things I listed pages back that the bible lists as sins.

I'm sure you've suggested someone buy clothing with mixed fibers before without blinking twice. Please explain to the group how Miss Kay is defiling gods law, but suggesting someone buy yoga pants and go to lobster fest is not. 
Please also explain to me why you are not killing the countless women who have sex before wedlock when the bible expressly states that you are required to do so. Have you not also sinned by refusing to do this? Please explain if you are confident in the bible if you also feel it's justified to kill women under these circumstances.
I would especially like to hear your reasons for eating pork and shrimp as these are focused on in the bible frequently. Far more often than homosexuality is mentioned. Yet I do not see you decrying others for this behavior.

These are the clear tenants listed in your bible. So you should not have any problems explaining them to me.


----------



## Bubba1358 (Nov 6, 2013)

Ozarka said:


> Anyone who uses the "holy" bible as an undisputed Authority for Life obviously has chosen to ignore a lot; the actual history of the "document" Snipped, whittled, censored, edited for convenience, warped by those who paid for the translation & edit, it goes on and on. Look up the Council of Trent.


The Council of Trent had nothing to do with the formation of the Bible. The Bible was codified in the middle of the fourth century. Trent was 1,200 years later (1546) and dealt primarily with Lutheranism and the concepts of _Sola Fide_ and _Sola Scriptura_. That council did reaffirm the Latin vulgate (translation) done by St. Jerome and finished in 405, give or take a year or so.


----------



## Bubba1358 (Nov 6, 2013)

ChocolateMouse said:


> JoePa, since you seem intent on not allowing people to live and let live, I am setting a clear goal post for you. The bible also says that eating shrimp and wearing mixed fibers is a sin, as well as that you should kill women who are not virgins when they are married. These things are named as much as homosexuality if not more often. There are many, many, things I listed pages back that the bible lists as sins.
> 
> I'm sure you've suggested someone buy clothing with mixed fibers before without blinking twice. Please explain to the group how Miss Kay is defiling gods law, but suggesting someone buy yoga pants and go to lobster fest is not.
> Please also explain to me why you are not killing the countless women who have sex before wedlock when the bible expressly states that you are required to do so. Have you not also sinned by refusing to do this? Please explain if you are confident in the bible if you also feel it's justified to kill women under these circumstances.
> ...


These 613 negative laws you're referencing apply to Old Testament Judaism. Since the food prohibition is the hot topic, I'll take a stab at it.

Christians are no longer bound by the Law of Moses (called "the Law" by Paul and other in the NT). This did not mean the moral code, but rather the social law given down to distinguish the Jewish people from the other nations. Jesus, Paul, and Peter are all on record in the NT in saying that eating food food does not make one unclean. Jesus himself says "It is not what goes in the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth." In the Gospel of mark, he "declared all foods clean." The only prohibition is against eating meat from an animal that was either strangled, or one sacrificed to a pagan god.

Conversely, while many jewish custom/social laws, such as fibers, hairstyles, pork/shrimp, restoring oneself to cleanliness, etc. were NOT mandated to Christians, the basic moral law was. The NT contains references to certain types of immorality that transcend cultural norms (see 1 Corinthians, chapter 6 for the full list), and that were also prohibited in the OT.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Bubba, so your argument is that in the New Testament, Jesus says that man is no longer bound by that list of 613 negative laws. I just want to clarify that, in your opinion, if the new testament contradicts the old testament that we are to rely on the words of the new testament and specifically the words of Jesus's teachings. Is that correct?

JoePa, you can't answer in a respectful manner? Do you not have a reasonable argument based on the facts in your own book? If you do I would be happy to hear it.


----------



## CurtisWilliams (Mar 14, 2005)

JoePa said:


> Well Curtis - where do I start - first off God created a perfect world but because of sin He cursed creation - that is why things are not perfect - God didn't make you a **** - it was a fault of nature - just like so many others things that people are born with - man can aspire to become an individual that is worthy of praise - of clean good character - or can crawl into the gutter and commit all kinds of ungodly things -
> 
> Obviously you don't believe in God - I assume you believe that this world and everything in it is just one big accident - we are just another form of animal - with that kind of foundation what can one expect - there is no right or wrong - everything goes - no absolutes - well let me tell you something - there is a God and He has given us a Savior so we can have a relationship with Himself - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that God made them male and female for a purpose - it's the natural order of things - so naturally when someone comes along and wants to have sex with someone with like gender that person needs to get rid of God - how else can he feel good about what he is doing -
> 
> ...


 First, In your own words, God created a perfect world. God created it to be perfect. Right? Yet their was sin in God's perfect creation. Therefore God created sin. Do you see the flaw in this scenario. God's perfect creation WAS FLAWED! Were the flaws perfect? Was the sin perfect? Either God intended for this or he didn't. You can't have it both ways. 

Next, the descriptive word is gay. Calling someone a **** is labeling them, where gay is a descriptive adjective. In your own words nature made me gay. Didn't God create nature? So God's creation made me gay. So God made me gay.

Next, you are attacking my character which has nothing to do with sexual orientation. How Christian of you.

Next, you are attacking my faith. Believing or not will not change my core feelings that God gave me. I cant help how I feel, anymore than you can. I'm going to assume that you are heterosexually inclined. Please correct me if I am wrong in this assumption. Could you make a conscious decision that you are now attracted to men instead of women? I'm not talking about a realization of feelings, but purposely deciding that you will now be 'a ****'? I had this excact discussion in general chat with Stubborn Mule a decade ago.

For what it is worth, I am an open minded agnostic. In the movie 'Contact' one character states that not believing that there is a God is different than believing that there isn't a God.

And I hate to be the bearer of bad news, we are animal. And all the social evolution in creation will never change that.

Next, you are questioning my interpretation of God's will. I do not know Gods will. And ya know what? Neither do you. Now does anyone else. Think about this logically. If there is an omniescent and omnipotent creator, do you honestly think that you could understand him? Are you that egotistical?

Next you are comparing consensual sex with murder. Hey Joe, the apple is the red one.

Now I can't speak for everyone. Nor would I presume to. I honestly do not give a rat's patootie how you view my orientation. What I and I think most 'homos' want is to not have someone elses values forced on us. If you don't like someone feels, WALK AWAY. If you don't like the color of my house, close your eyes. If you don't like the way I look, don't look at me. See how simple it really is? When someone's morality is forced on someone else, it now is immorality.

As far as the Muslim world, that kind of behavior is the actions of the religious extremists. The Muslim world until fairly recent times was very to the Christian society. And in many ways they have remained similar. For better AND worse.

And lastly, I'm not bragging. I'm stating a fact about something I have no control over. I will neither braq nor be ashamed of my orientation, as I can't change my feelings. They may change of their own accord, but that is not thru any conscious effort.

Joe, your entire argument is based on a book that was written by men, interpreted by men and translated and perverted by men. 

One of the tenets of Christianity is that to question the will of God is a sin. Yet Jesus did this very thing. "Father why hast thou forsaken me".

Either the bible is the infallible word of God, or it isn't. You cant have it both ways.


----------



## CurtisWilliams (Mar 14, 2005)

tjlmama said:


> Curtis, let's be honest now. There are some homosexual agendas. Currently I use a Filofax ;-)


 So color me unlearned. I have no idea what a Filofax is. 

So what is my agenda?


----------



## CurtisWilliams (Mar 14, 2005)

newfieannie said:


> and even then they were going to be the first log on the fire. ~Georgia


 An interesting choice of words Annie. The word ------ or *** as applied to gay men from the time that gay men were burned at the stake. A pile of ------s (bundles of fire wood), was used to incinerate these men, who eventually became known as ------s. And in Britain, cigarettes are still referred to as ****. 

I am a plethora of useless knowledge.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Isn't Filofax a company that makes day planners? 

Oh. I see they are based in the UK. Perhaps there is some brittish slang that my uncultured self is missing somewhere. Perhaps like "agenda" being slang for a day planner or calendar? That would make sense.


----------



## tjlmama (Apr 26, 2016)

Lol yes agenda means calender or schedule or plan


----------



## CurtisWilliams (Mar 14, 2005)

I get it now. Very tongue in cheek and subtle! And now that the joke was pointed out, I like it. 

Ok, does that mean I keep my homosexual agenda in my computer?


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

My homosexual agenda is filled with chicks and sex.

And by that... I mean rabbit sex. And baby chickens.

Scandal.


----------



## CurtisWilliams (Mar 14, 2005)

ChocolateMouse said:


> My agenda is filled with sex chickens.


I didn't know you were that kinky!


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Well, you know... I have a cock and he's a filthy infidel with lots of hens every day. Lots of carnal knowledge going on there! Several times a day, all with different chicks... It's hard for them to reproduce without it.


----------



## Bubba1358 (Nov 6, 2013)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Bubba, so your argument is that in the New Testament, Jesus says that man is no longer bound by that list of 613 negative laws. I just want to clarify that, in your opinion, if the new testament contradicts the old testament that we are to rely on the words of the new testament and specifically the words of Jesus's teachings. Is that correct?


Basically, yes. The person of Christ is the fulfillment of the OT in many ways: as God himself, Davidic king, prophet, priest, sacrifice, law ("Word made flesh"), and also the fulfillment of each archetype throughout the OT (Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, etc.).

The symbolic action of the tearing of the veil in the sanctuary immediately after Christ's death meant (means?) that the salvific religion of the Hebrew people was now open to all through the work of Jesus. Therefore, circumcision was no longer required (see Peter's decision in Acts), dietary laws were no longer necessary, all of the stonings stopped, laws of purification were n longer enforced, etc.

In spite of this, when we look to Christ's own words, we see that all of the moral aspects remain intact. A few saying from memory that reinfoirce this include: "Be perfect, as you heavenly Father is perfect." "Go, and sin no more." "No one who says 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven." and so on.

It's not really accurate that we look to the NT to "override" the contradiction in the OT. It's better to say that the new law simultaneously replaces and fulfills the old law.

Does that help?


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Bubba; It does. It clarifies your statement for my own point. It means that, to you, Jesus's word is above all others in the bible, in that he fulfills the prophecies and gives us new laws to follow, freeing us from the old ones.

It's interesting that you quote Matthew in that list of morality, because in Matthew itself Jesus says countless things. But what they total to is that Jesus himself says that the bible, the church, the priests, our view of morality and the entire organization is bunk and that the only way to heaven is through him. So he asks us to listen to HIM, meaning that with the exception of the over arcing message of what he says (Which tends towards things like "Make lasting commitments, be nice to each other, feed the poor, don't judge, love one another, etc".) the bible is open for interpretation because man is flawed and he himself acknowledges that the church and bible have been corrupted. Matthew is one of my favorite reads. It's really quite neat. There's a LOT of stuff that Jesus says about how dumb the church and "laws" are in there.

Now as for your mention of Corinthians. I'm going off of the KJV here because it's the most widely used, but it clearly states that those who are "effeminate" will not go to heaven, in a list that includes fornicaters (sex in general), adulterers (anyone who is divorced), thieves, etc. Now, effeminate is a word that could mean "gay dudes" but it could also clearly and is more likely given the time period to mean women, and anyone who is girly. Which means that, according to the bible, women won't go to heaven anyhow. That gives me, personally (along with 51% of the US population), zero incentive to follow the bible... But if we think that god made us in his image ("So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.", man, historically, being a word that referenced the entire population not just males) and therefore women are part of his perfection and can go to heaven we can dismiss that passage as part of men making their laws out to be God's laws.
Another interpretation of this statement (with both "fornicaters" and "adulterers" listed separately) is that humans are not to practice reproduction in general, that sexuality in it's entirety is forbidden and that celibacy is the only godly way. There are groups who decided to focus on that most firmly, the way that some here have decided to focus on homosexuality. Throughout the bible, over and over, it states that sex in general is bad. This led to groups like the Shakers, who were probably some of the coolest people ever. They worshiped their god very thoroughly. They didn't brag about it, they didn't reproduce and they spread their word respectfully. They fed the sick, hungry and homeless. They took in orphans and loved everyone. They were great humanitarians. For all we know, they were the last to go to the kingdom of heaven. The bible makes it clear repeatedly that sex is wrong and a bar to heaven in many of the same NT passages forbidding homosexuality. But that's conveniently ignored by all these "god fearing" Christians with their wives and six kids.

This sort of deconstruction of the bible and alterations by men can be done on so many levels that it makes it hard to argue that JESUS says "gays are wrong", even if old laws say "gays are wrong". That's why Christianity has dozens of different denominations that all think different things. But He makes it very clear that the way to heaven is not through bible, church, old laws or priests but through HIM, and HE encourages, love, forgiveness, goodness, appreciation, treating people well, etc. The message directly conflicts with the previous Abrahamic messages of fire, brimstone, etc, and is what makes Christians CHRISTIAN.

So my question then becomes, Bubba, what is YOUR interpretation of Corinthians 1?

Do you think that "fornicators" will not go to heaven? Because it clearly states that. What about your wife, daughters and sisters? Can they just ask forgiveness for being girls and having kids and then go to heaven? Or should women strive to be butch and not "effeminate" so they can get into heaven (in which case lesbians=ok but gay guys=not?)? If you can continue to be female and go to heaven anyhow (say, by asking for forgiveness for the way you were born and have to exist?), can you continue to be gay and go to heaven anyhow?
If you don't think any of these things why not? The bible clearly states them as bars to heaven, so why do these things not apply but homosexuality (not listed in that passage) does? 
Does that mean we can cherry pick the bible and believe only parts of it? does that mean that the bible inherently flawed by men?

These are serious questions within the very passage you are highlighting as being your basis for morality. I'm genuine in wanting to hear your justification and answers in regards to them.


----------



## tjlmama (Apr 26, 2016)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Or should women strive to be butch and not "effeminate" so they can get into heaven (in which case lesbians=ok but gay guys=not?)?


In which case I'm super screwed as I'm a girly girl lesbian.:blossom:


----------



## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Oh dear! The 144,000 who judge are going to have a very difficult task!


----------



## Bubba1358 (Nov 6, 2013)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Bubba; It does. It clarifies your statement for my own point. It means that, to you, Jesus's word is above all others in the bible, in that he fulfills the prophecies and gives us new laws to follow, freeing us from the old ones.


I'd reword it, but basically yeah.



ChocolateMouse said:


> It's interesting that you quote Matthew in that list of morality, because in Matthew itself Jesus says countless things. But what they total to is that *Jesus himself says that the bible, the church, the priests, our view of morality and the entire organization is bunk and that the only way to heaven is through him*. So he asks us to listen to HIM, meaning that with the exception of the over arcing message of what he says (Which tends towards things like "Make lasting commitments, be nice to each other, feed the poor, don't judge, love one another, etc".) the bible is open for interpretation because man is flawed and he himself acknowledges that the church and bible have been corrupted. Matthew is one of my favorite reads. It's really quite neat. There's a LOT of stuff that Jesus says about how dumb the church and "laws" are in there.


I think the overarching message in Matthew is one of pursuing holiness and perfection. Matthew was written in the Holy Land as an exhortation to practicing Jews to convert to Christianity. The interpretation you mentioned glosses over some of the more meaty stuff in Matthew, such as:

"And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:30 KJV)

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." (Matthew 23:2-3 KJV) This one speaks more to your concerns. Christ addressed the Pharisees quite often, since they were the religious leaders of the day. They had basically sold out for worldly power at this point, and what we see in Jesus' words against them tells us as much. BUT, he clearly exhorts the faithful to still do what they say because what they say is correct. But, he also warned the people not to do as the Pharisees did.

The "Make lasting commitments, be nice to each other, feed the poor, don't judge, love one another, etc" Jesus is a watered-down version. That version is different from the one who holds moral standards so high he says it's better to pluck out your eye than use it to sin.



ChocolateMouse said:


> Now as for your mention of Corinthians. I'm going off of the KJV here because it's the most widely used, but it clearly states that those who are "effeminate" will not go to heaven, in a list that includes fornicaters (sex in general), adulterers (anyone who is divorced), thieves, etc. Now, effeminate is a word that could mean "gay dudes" but it could also clearly and is more likely given the time period to mean women, and anyone who is girly. *Which means that, according to the bible, women won't go to heaven anyhow*. That gives me, personally (along with 51% of the US population), zero incentive to follow the bible... But if we think that god made us in his image ("So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.", man, historically, being a word that referenced the entire population not just males) and therefore women are part of his perfection and can go to heaven we can dismiss that passage as part of men making their laws out to be God's laws.


Given that Paul was writing in Rome, to other parts of the Roman empire that was in the midst of the long slide into oblivion, I'm betting 'effeminate' here refers to homosexual activity. This is the translation given in other versions. 




ChocolateMouse said:


> Another interpretation of this statement (with both "fornicaters" and "adulterers" listed separately) *is that humans are not to practice reproduction in general*, that sexuality in it's entirety is forbidden and that celibacy is the only godly way. There are groups who decided to focus on that most firmly, the way that some here have decided to focus on homosexuality. Throughout the bible, over and over, it states that sex in general is bad. This led to groups like the Shakers, who were probably some of the coolest people ever. They worshiped their god very thoroughly. They didn't brag about it, they didn't reproduce and they spread their word respectfully. They fed the sick, hungry and homeless. They took in orphans and loved everyone. They were great humanitarians. For all we know, they were the last to go to the kingdom of heaven. The bible makes it clear repeatedly that sex is wrong and a bar to heaven in many of the same NT passages forbidding homosexuality. But that's conveniently ignored by all these "god fearing" Christians with their wives and six kids.


This goes against God's command in Genesis to "be fertile and multiply." The Bible says nothing about how sex is bad. It talks a lot about how sex _out of proper context_ is bad. That's what fornication and adultery are - sexual activity outside of marriage. Within marriage, sex is a "gift from God," to quote Pope Francis. Psalm 127 tells us "children are a gift from God." It makes zero sense to have to do something bad in order to get the gift.

That's also the reason those sects have died out and others more grounded in the entirety of scripture are still around - they weren't reproducing! It's hard to want to join a sect that prohibits the basic fundamental concept of marriage and child bearing.



ChocolateMouse said:


> This sort of deconstruction of the bible and alterations by men can be done on so many levels that it makes it hard to argue that *JESUS says "gays are wrong", even if old laws say "gays are wrong".* That's why Christianity has dozens of different denominations that all think different things. But He makes it very clear that the way to heaven is not through bible, church, old laws or priests but through HIM, and HE encourages, love, forgiveness, goodness, appreciation, treating people well, etc. The message directly conflicts with the previous Abrahamic messages of fire, brimstone, etc, and is what makes Christians CHRISTIAN.


Christ himself never said this, as he didn't have to - among his own people (the Jews) this was standard, accepted morality under the Law of Moses. You don't get to this until you get to Paul, who wrote to Gentiles (non-jews) all over the Roman empire. That's why all of the proscriptions against homosexual activity are found in Corinthians and Romans - Paul's letters.

Jesus did establish a visible church on earth, much like the Father established a visible presence on Earth in the OT. We see this in (ah!) Matthew 16:19:
"And I will give unto thee [Simon, now called Peter] the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." This verse chronicles the beginning of Christ establishing his own authority (his "keys") on earth by giving them to a man.



ChocolateMouse said:


> So my question then becomes, Bubba, what is YOUR interpretation of Corinthians 1?
> 
> Do you think that "fornicators" will not go to heaven? Because it clearly states that. What about your wife, daughters and sisters? Can they just ask forgiveness for being girls and having kids and then go to heaven? Or should women strive to be butch and not "effeminate" so they can get into heaven (in which case lesbians=ok but gay guys=not?)? If you can continue to be female and go to heaven anyhow (say, by asking for forgiveness for the way you were born and have to exist?), can you continue to be gay and go to heaven anyhow?
> If you don't think any of these things why not? The bible clearly states them as bars to heaven, so why do these things not apply but homosexuality (not listed in that passage) does?
> ...


"Fornicators" are those who engage in sexuality outside of the bond of marriage. Taking the bible at its own word, then yeah, it's pretty clear.

Thye Bible also speaks at great length about repentance and conversion. Nobody, even until the point of death like the Good Thief, is beyond God's mercy. Unless, of course, we reject it and choose our own paths.

Short on time, but hope this helps.


----------



## Bubba1358 (Nov 6, 2013)

ChocolateMouse said:


> This sort of deconstruction of the bible and alterations by men can be done on so many levels that it makes it hard to argue ...


.... Yes, I agree. I don't like it, and I think it does a disservice to truth and justice to not view the Bible in its entirety. Cherry-picking phrases to fit an ideology is not being truthful. Instead, believers are called to "repent and believe in the Gospel." We are to conform our lives to its message of faith, hope, and love, and not let our biases influence our individualistic views.

I call this being a "cafeteria Christian." The analogy is that you walk through a lot of different dishes, and rather than build a complete meal with EVERYTHING on your plate, you pick and choose only those that sound good right now.

Cafeteria-style Christianity isn't new. Interestingly, those that do this die out (you mentioned Shakers, who are all but extinct today). Those that take the good with the bad, the hard with the easy, and the truth with an open mind are the ones who last. The latter are who Jesus meant when he spoke of building a foundation on rock, and the cafeteria-style is the one built on sand (Matthew 7:24-27).


Anyways. Those are my thoughts today.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

It's an interesting viewpoint, but I can't see it being terribly accurate within the context of the bible. 
As for genesis, that's a logical fallacy within your own argument. If the NT says that we are now free from the old laws, we are also now free from going forth and multiplying should the bible and new laws say to no longer reproduce which it does.

If the concern was sodomy, then why would they have not used sodomy as their words, as that was already established as being the word for it listed earlier in the bible? In fact, the concern of sodomy does not also address the idea of female sexuality outside of men, such as the isle of ******, nor is it addressed in being effeminate, as sexuality towards women would be masculine. Should that have not also been addressed if that was what they meant? If Sodomy was not the appropriate word for it, what then is Sodomy supposed to have meant? Could it have meant some of the other behaviors preformed in Sodom? If the concern of fornication was, in fact, adultery why then use both fornication and adultery? That doesn't seem very clear at all to me. The whole thing seems very fuzzy and interpretable indeed. In fact the Greek word translated âfornicationâ by the King James Bible is pornia (which we get the word âpornographyâ from). It refers to any unlawful sexual activity. Bauers Lexicon ("The standard and best Greek Lexicon" according to biblical folks) defines it as âunsanctioned sexual intercourse.â According to the church, the sanctioning of a sexual activity is defined in Leviticus 18. Those are the very laws that Jesus is said to have freed us from, which you said yourself he did.
In fact, _again_ in Corinthians, the laws you say are so important against homosexuality, Paul says âTo the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to stay single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.â, which is basically "If you can't stop screwing up, make sure you only screw up with one person". Or "sin as little as possible". There are arguments for celibacy littered throughout the whole bible, even in the NT, repeatedly, over and over. If NT law is the new laws we should follow, it follows that Christians should be celibate. Corinthians has so many references to being celibate as the path to god, far more than any vague references to homosexuality. Which means; no wives, no children, as those are the laws Jesus set before us in the NT.

The fact that there IS an argument to be made here makes it clear enough that it's not set in stone the way you perceive it. The fact that the bible is split amongst SO many different viewpoints alone shows that the bible is open to interpretation and is hardly set in stone. Do you think Presbyterians are more right or roman Catholics? They believe different things. Which interpretation of the bible is correct? Or are they all the same and you're denying the differences between churches? What if YOURS is the cafeteria style Christianity that dies out?

The language seems clear to me, that it bans sexual relations and women from heaven. Many have used these same arguments to say that women do not belong in the church and are lesser beings. There is even a law in the NT that says women are not allowed to speak in churches because they are shameful (Corinthians again!) and amongst many places in the bible is the "lesser" nature of women referenced, especially in the OT, and this is then backed up in the NT with these samefold statements. It's similarly ingrained in the "morality" of the bible. I doubt you very much scold your wife just for chatting with friends in the church lobby. (Although, perhaps you do, the poor girl! After all, that is what is required of you by the bible! Do you? No, seriously, do you? Because if you don't, that's rather sinful and she won't go to heaven, right?) Somehow those were absolutely, 100% correct to those people at one point in time. They truly believed that women were lesser beings, not destined for heaven. And they would call you a heretic for thinking otherwise. This same activity still exists in other parts of the world. Yet now they aren't. Could your perception of those laws be flawed by modern, sinful thinking that women are people the same way somehow modern Christians are flawed for starting to think that maybe gays are OK? Is "women are people" cafeteria style Christianity?

The NT also states that slaves are A-OK and that if you're a slave and desire freedom that it's wrong and immoral. That was, at one point, especially in American history, considered the right thing by the bible. Is slavery OK? Legit, because the bible's NT says that slaves "be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ". If you reject slavery and believe in fighting for your freedom, is that cafeteria style Christianity?
In any case, I hope you understand that the whole point of this is that there ISN'T a "one true way". The bible is open to interpretation even by Christians. It's really easy to run circles around the bible because it contradicts itself repeatedly, even within the same verses and bits of scripture. And maybe, someday, one or the other sort of people will die out. But in the meantime, the bible gives us clear instructions on what to do about that, which is to basically live and let live.

Nobody is trying to stop Christians from worshiping anywhere, from marrying, from having children, from interpreting their works how they see fit... It DOES go directly against many, many teachings in the NT to try to stop other people from living their lives either with or away from god. It specifically states that if someone is ignorant, to let them be ignorant, to not judge, to not try to cast out demons and sinners, to, essentially, let bygones be bygones. 
Which, really, I think is all gay people want. They wanna lead their lives without having their rights infringed or be subjected to actions like harmful "reprogramming". 

Which begs the question really, why do Christians pick out homosexuality as the ONLY topic and try to force their morality on others when the bible clearly says not to? Doesn't the bible say all sins are the same and therefore isn't it JUST as sinful to judge people for being gay as it is to be gay?

Lots of people sin in lots of ways. The fact that Christians seem to whole-heartedly pick on just one particular sin speaks more to the person doing the talking than it does to their faith. By choosing to deride people sinning in one way more than anyone or anything else (I mean, nobody is pushing to make divorce illegal or ban women talking in churches or re institute slavery, making the bible the law, things that the bible clearly states they SHOULD be pursuing if they should be doing that with gays) it means they don't really care about their FAITH... They care about their AGENDA. Which is their own discomfort and bigotry in accepting homosexuals. If they truly cared about their faith, we'd see a lot less "Get this girl to have sex with a guy, she's nasty and going to hell" posts on here, and a lot more "I'm sorry. I will pray for you. Let me know if you need help." kind of posts.

The only reason for Christians to hate on homosexuals is their own, individual bigotry. The bible doesn't support it.


----------



## Bubba1358 (Nov 6, 2013)

This is too much to block-by-block quote for me, so I'm gonna go with red.



ChocolateMouse said:


> It's an interesting viewpoint, but I can't see it being terribly accurate within the context of the bible.
> As for genesis, that's a logical fallacy within your own argument. If the NT says that we are now free from the old laws, we are also now free from going forth and multiplying should the bible and new laws say to no longer reproduce which it does.
> 
> This is why there is no "minimum" number of children a Christian must have. There's no fallacy - it's a directive to humanity in general, specifically to Adam and Eve.
> ...


Thanks. This was fun!


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

This has been fun, Bubba. I'm genuinely glad to be having a civil disagreement about this. Most of what you wrote is just a difference of perception and interpretations of the bible. Funny, Jews would say that THEIRS is the original version and has a MUCH richer, older history and the only right way to honor God.... So I'm not sure that's relevant.

Really, the church has done little for women's rights.... It sure would be a hoot to see them standing up for that beyond "Maybe we shouldn't kill them or leave them to starve when they have no rights" but I don't see that in most of the sects of the church. It's one of the many reasons I could never get deeply involved. The idea that women are equal to men existed in very few societies (certainly not Christianity) until modern times. "Good christian" men in the 1800's would laugh you out of their houses for saying women are equal. Maybe hang you as a heretic. And like you say, your view is different and that they would be heretical, but, kind of crazy, you'd be a commie left wing liberal nutjob and sinful in their eyes! You'd be having this same conversation, just from the other side of the argument about women. World views change. It's going to be interesting to see where the US and the church is in 100 years and what side of history Catholicism and Christianity is on. Especially since the pope himself has said to lay off on the whole gay thing...

To answer just the questions and basic facts, not the opinions and the interpretations;
" It does?? Where?"
Corinthians 14 "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues."
Matthew 7; 1-5 (judge not lest ye be judged, etc)
Corinthians 6;1-3 (we've mentioned this one enough)
John 8 (he who is without sin casts the first stone)
Romans 14
and to a small degree Thessalonians 3

As for "reprogramming" I'm afraid that sensitivity training to not be a jerk to other people who are different than you is NOT reprogramming. Reprogramming, as I mentioned earlier, is a really unhealthy, fruitless, and harmful series of unstabilizing mental shaming "procedures" to make people hate themselves with zero results and massively increased suicide rates. Not being a jerk to other people, and having to take a day-course on not being a jerk, will not make you want to kill yourself. :/ It does not involve electronic shocks, public shaming, and forcing you to preform carnally in front of things you find disgusting.

"If this is true, this is a sad way to be." I agree. I feel bad for the the people in groups like WBC who think it's the only way to honor God. It's shameful.

"Maybe I missed those, but I haven't personally seen anything like that."
Go back and look. Some of them are sketchy. That's part of why I posted in this thread in the first place. Someone suggested a course of action that could get the young girl in this thread raped. He wasn't the only super sexist comment.  Some folks in this thread just can't handle women being as capable as men. Such quality Christians.

And the most important thing you said is;
"Nobody is obligated to listen, and certainly nobody should be taking offense if we're just a bunch of loonies anyway!"

I agree! I never expect anyone to listen to me about my religion... Even I think it sounds a little loony when I try to go into details. And I really am not offended when people simply disagree with me. This has been one of the best conversations with a catholic I've ever had. I feel like we could be bygones. Unfortunately, I don't get the option of feeling that very often. 
People like Christians (and yes, Muslim extremists too! And Jews. Abrahamic religions are not exactly peace-loving to other religions...) take people like me and literally try to shoot at me or torture me with "conversion therapy" for believing something different than them. They endanger my life, my ability to love according to my own religion, lead a normal life, work, order food, practice my own religion, etc. They do this in part by trying to force laws on me and my own like the NC bathroom law, anti-gay marriage laws, and "freedom" of religion laws that make it so that businesses can discriminate against me. Trans bathrooms, religious freedom, birth control, gays marrying, etc. won't stop you from being a good christian...

It's really sad, as this country was founded on the basis that our government shouldn't deny religious rights or enforce religious laws. We're supposed to have liberty, but a theocracy is not liberty. (There's already a christian theocratic country if folks wanna move there since I hear that argument a lot. And no, non Christians are not leaving. My ancestors were from these shores. I and non-Christians have more rights to this land then you...)

Like I said to Fireman... Frankly, this would not even be a discussion anyone cared about were it not for consistent abuse against homosexuals. But when you oppress a group they find ways to fight back bigger and badder. It's a shame that it has become an agenda so big that people can't discuss it respectfully or acknowledge that even within their own religion it's no worse than any other of countless sins committed regularly. Thank you for at least trying to talk. I do feel like I understand your side of things a bit better now, even if I do still disagree with them strongly.


----------



## Midgard (Jan 23, 2015)

What an amazing group of posts! I enjoyed the diversity of opinions. I do have to say that my two favorites were the vegan and rabbit eating and then the post that mentioned killing the rabbits first. It really gave me a new perspective. Frankly, I never cared one way or another whether a person is gay or straight. It is the quality of the person's character that counts. 

Ed


----------



## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Accept for Jesus in the new testament puts it all to rest when he says man shall leave his parents abs cling to his wife and the wife shall leave her parents and cling to a husband (get married) and the two become one flesh (sex).


----------



## CurtisWilliams (Mar 14, 2005)

Vahomesteaders said:


> Accept for Jesus in the new testament puts it all to rest when he says man shall leave his parents abs cling to his wife and the wife shall leave her parents and cling to a husband (get married) and the two become one flesh (sex).


 This is gonna be a good one. 

So in the bibble and your heart and mind, by your own words, a man or a woman that lives with MOM and OR POP, wait... what happens next? 


Darn cliffhangers!!!


----------



## Ozarka (Apr 15, 2007)

...there are a thousand pathways to God, how convenient for the Xians to claim that there is only one...and btw, said path passes by the collection plate.... Most don't entail dress codes, specific language, or buying a million dollar stone gateway into razorback stadium. Good people are going to do good things to ppl, bad ppl are going to do bad things to people until their karma shuts them down. It takes religion to make good ppl do bad things. John Lennon spoke about such things. What if there were no religion? No fear of hell? 

A number of years ago amid the shock waves of all the pedophile priests, an organization in Germany opened a hotline for calls to report sexual abuse by Catholic priests and other officials. In the first 24 hours they logged 4,500 complaints... I have zero faith in any religion. Buddhism and writers like Rumi and the book the Way of the Tao seem to be really clear that we don't need Jim Bakker and Oral Roberts to tell us how to find God.

The esteemed and notable Mr. John Prine said it best: blow up your tv, throw away your papers, move to the country & build you a home, eat a lot of peaches and try and find Jesus on your own. Amen.

The eye which seeks God is that which it seeks.....

keep your dogma and all the mental churning you go to to essplain the unessplainable. Lighten up.

A christian sits in church and thinks about kayaking on the river, a Spiritualist sits in his kayak on the river and thinks about God.


----------



## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

CurtisWilliams said:


> This is gonna be a good one.
> 
> So in the bibble and your heart and mind, by your own words, a man or a woman that lives with MOM and OR POP, wait... what happens next?
> 
> ...


No. It simply saying you must step out of their care and start your own life. Many Jewish families lived under one roof. But nice try on belittling the word due to your inability to disifer simple sayings.


----------



## CurtisWilliams (Mar 14, 2005)

How is "Clinging" to a spouse starting a life? IDK about you or anyone else here but my life was started the moment I was conceived. 

And of those who choose to live with Mom and or Pop. Why should the Supreme Creator of the universe care? Doesn't God have something else to do? Or are we simply an ant farm for his amusement?


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Isn't this a "GC" type of conversation?
How did we go from the OP to this?


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Isn't this a "GC" type of conversation?
> How did we go from the OP to this?


What is going on with this forum? Good grief people give the religion discussions a rest. Between GC (garbage can) and now this it has become a forgone conclusion that the two groups will take over discussions with their circular arguments. 

Maybe it is time for a new area like a basement to give these combatants an area to "discuss" their views.


----------



## Elffriend (Mar 2, 2003)

Bubba1358 said:


> These 613 negative laws you're referencing apply to Old Testament Judaism.


Negative laws? You think all 613 of those commandments from God are negative?


----------



## Bubba1358 (Nov 6, 2013)

no really said:


> What is going on with this forum? Good grief people give the religion discussions a rest. Between GC (garbage can) and now this it has become a forgone conclusion that the two groups will take over discussions with their circular arguments.
> 
> Maybe it is time for a new area like a basement to give these combatants an area to "discuss" their views.


I apologize for my contributions to the madness. I'm done now.



Elffriend said:


> Negative laws? You think all 613 of those commandments from God are negative?


Well, almost done. "Negative" is a generic term applied to the "Thou shalt not" nature of the regulations. You shall not kill, shall not eat pork, shall not enter the temple area while unclean, etc. The word "negative" refers only to the fact that these are mostly prohibitions.

Now I'm done.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

For Real


----------



## Elffriend (Mar 2, 2003)

Bubba1358 said:


> Well, almost done. "Negative" is a generic term applied to the "Thou shalt not" nature of the regulations. You shall not kill, shall not eat pork, shall not enter the temple area while unclean, etc. The word "negative" refers only to the fact that these are mostly prohibitions.
> 
> Now I'm done.


Only 365 are "Thou shalt not" yet you labeled them 613 negative commandments.


----------



## CurtisWilliams (Mar 14, 2005)

_ I apologize for my contribution in the derailment of this thread. Mea Culpa._


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Eh, I'm not super sorry. Many people attempt to make religion cover their own bigotry and pass laws about it and I think a discussion on the religious aspects of homosexuality and relationships is appropriate for a thread about homosexuality. Some of us managed to have a reasonable discussion and it was interesting. Others not so much.

Again, if it weren't for religious dogma for people to hide behind, I think there'd be a lot less of a discussion or people caring. It'd be as normal as an inter-racial couple. Some honest to goodness bigots might be offended but I don't think the post would have ever even been made because nobody woulda cared.

The number one argument against homosexuality is religiously based. And silly IMO.


----------



## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Back to the original question, she's 13, She should not be close to being sexually active. Wait until she's older to make any kind of a deal about it.
She may not really know what she's talking about yet, she could be a 'late bloomer' in the boy department and outgrow it or she may not. Either way she's still your relatives daughter and deserving of respect. At 13 saying she likes girls is no big deal (frankly it shouldn't be a big deal at any age but at least when she is older she'll understand it more).


----------



## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Eh, I'm not super sorry. Many people attempt to make religion cover their own bigotry and pass laws about it and I think a discussion on the religious aspects of homosexuality and relationships is appropriate for a thread about homosexuality. Some of us managed to have a reasonable discussion and it was interesting. Others not so much.
> 
> Again, if it weren't for religious dogma for people to hide behind, I think there'd be a lot less of a discussion or people caring. It'd be as normal as an inter-racial couple. Some honest to goodness bigots might be offended but I don't think the post would have ever even been made because nobody woulda cared.
> 
> The number one argument against homosexuality is religiously based. And silly IMO.


Actually physical and emotional health would be way up there if the truth was spoken about the physical impact on health. Especially men's health. But nobody discusses that. And that's not even including aids. Just do a quick search of what other physical problems associate with homosexuality.


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Va, I think it's funny you are advocating raw milk in one thread and against potentially damaging homosexual behavior in another.  Isn't it kind of silly to ban consenting adults from doing things that could be harmful (like gay sex or raw milk)? You can't have it both ways.

Personal liberties are funny like that. You either get them or you don't. I'd prefer to have them.


----------



## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

ChocolateMouse said:


> Va, I think it's funny you are advocating raw milk in one thread and against potentially damaging homosexual behavior in another.  Isn't it kind of silly to ban consenting adults from doing things that could be harmful (like gay sex or raw milk)? You can't have it both ways.
> 
> Personal liberties are funny like that. You either get them or you don't. I'd prefer to have them.


I never said ban anything. Never have. To each their own. Just because I don't agree with it doesn't mean it should be banned. Other than the bathroom issue. I have two gay family members. Love them to death. They come over every thanksgiving with their significant others. They know my feelings but I respect them and they respect me. But comparing a sexual act to food is a very far stretch. Their are proven benefits to raw milk. No proven benefits of using a body part in a detrimental way. And be careful advocating for free for all liberties. It will come back to bite us when adults start vying for the affections of a child and having the right to with parental consent for which these sickos would pay the parents greatly for. It's already been discussed. Would you approve of that?


----------



## CurtisWilliams (Mar 14, 2005)

Vahomesteaders said:


> Actually physical and emotional health would be way up there if the truth was spoken about the physical impact on health. Especially men's health. But nobody discusses that. And that's not even including aids. Just do a quick search of what other physical problems associate with homosexuality.


 
So please inform and enlighten us. How is a man having a loving relationship with another man unhealthy?

This is getting better daily!


----------



## tjlmama (Apr 26, 2016)

Vahomesteaders said:


> No proven benefits of using a body part in a detrimental way. And be careful advocating for free for all liberties. It will come back to bite us when adults start vying for the affections of a child and having the right to with parental consent for which these sickos would pay the parents greatly for. It's already been discussed. Would you approve of that?


How is gay sex detrimental? 

Also the issue is consent. A child can not consent. Two adults can. Therefore two completely separate issues.


----------



## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

I've been out of town to a family funeral this week so I've missed several pages but I came back to find JoePa questioning my Christianity. I can tell you sir, as a fellow Christian (see, I'm assuming you are), we are ALL but filthy rags and except for his grace would spend eternity in hell. You are no better than a gay person, a sinner, for you sir are a sinner or you fool yourself to think otherwise. You can pick at another person's sin all you want but you know what, you will not stand before God to account for their sin, you will stand to account for yours and yours alone. As for me, I will love all people and let God deal with them in his own way and his own time including you. It is people like you that keep more people away from the bible and God than anything else. Jesus can tell folks to stop sinning but you sir are not Jesus so you are not sin free. Tell me how many people you have turned from homosexuality? zero! How many people have you turned against Christianity by judging and cherry picking sins. My guess is several just on this forum. I don't want that on my head when I stand before God..


----------



## ChocolateMouse (Jul 31, 2013)

Va, consenting sexual behavior in adults =/= sex with children. That's silly. It's nonsense. You have kids? You can't keep those kids! You've had consenting adult sex with another consenting adult! You could want to sleep with those kids of yours! If we allow you to have consenting sex that could mean rape becomes legal! See how silly this argument is?
A similar comparison. I'm legally allowed to punch things. I'm legally allowed to punch OTHER PEOPLE if they CONSENT to it. Some people do this for a living or fun (Boxing, MMA, fight club?) and it's VERY physically damaging and bad for them. REALLY bad for them. Does this mean that because boxers can punch people that we can go around punching children (or anyone for that matter?)? This is a silly debate to even try to argue. They have NO correlation to one another. None.

Many people DO suggest banning it is the point. Which is a violation of liberty.
There's this thing called universal morality. Basically it comes down to if you ask very different people from different cultures and time periods in equal numbers "do you want anyone, anywhere to be allowed to do this thing TO YOU" and the vast majority answer "No" then it's universally wrong (without consent). Some examples are; taking property, killing, sex, causing injury, etc. Every living thing fights back against these things when there's not consent involved. Even animals subjected to these conditions fight back against them. They are basic needs of living beings. Basically in short, your liberty ends where someone else's liberty begins. You can't say "it's MY liberty to kill you!" because it's THEIR liberty to live, so it's NOT within the principles of liberty to kill people. Most of these anti-LGBTQ laws violate that basic principle about personal liberty. YOUR personal liberty can't infringe on MY personal liberty without consent and vice versa.
Now KIDS think that they live in the country of "pink" and that they are pterodactyls and that their moms are 2158 years old. They don't have the physical development of their brain to even attempt to comprehend sex so they can't consent. But their own liberty doesn't go away just because they don't know. That's like saying it's OK for me to ask you "will you be my doulos?" and you say "sure, whatever" and then I get to enslave you because you didn't know what doulos meant. That's not consent.

Now sexual activity has LOTS of health benefits, and if genitals of the opposite gender is unappealing (and therefore not an option) to you, it's up to you to weigh the risks of sex with the benefits of sex in general _as long as you can truly grasp those benefits and risks_. Most people decide it's worth the risk.  Same with raw milk which has obvious health risks, most of which can be gotten with a non-risky alternative, but a small percentage of people have problems drinking non-raw milk (like gay people having trouble with hetero sex). It's really not all that different.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Miss Kay said:


> I've been out of town to a family funeral this week so I've missed several pages but I came back to find JoePa questioning my Christianity. I can tell you sir, as a fellow Christian (see, I'm assuming you are), we are ALL but filthy rags and except for his grace would spend eternity in hell. You are no better than a gay person, a sinner, for you sir are a sinner or you fool yourself to think otherwise. You can pick at another person's sin all you want but you know what, you will not stand before God to account for their sin, you will stand to account for yours and yours alone. As for me, I will love all people and let God deal with them in his own way and his own time including you. It is people like you that keep more people away from the bible and God than anything else. Jesus can tell folks to stop sinning but you sir are not Jesus so you are not sin free. Tell me how many people you have turned from homosexuality? zero! How many people have you turned against Christianity by judging and cherry picking sins. My guess is several just on this forum. I don't want that on my head when I stand before God..


Thank you for an excellent post, Miss Kay.


----------



## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

All it takes is the word "sex" in the title to recieve a disproportionate number of views...


----------

