# Dead Queen



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I've got a hive of Italian bees that I bought from another beekeeper. They've lasted awhile and done pretty well, but I noticed the population never really got up there this spring like my other hives. About two weeks ago I added a new super on and noticed that down in the brood box they were making queen cells. I let that go, intending to try and catch the swarm or just let it happen naturally and sealed everything back up tight.

A few days ago I noticed a cluster of bees on the ledge in front of the hive. Closer inspection revealed they were in a circle around a dead queen. I couldn't tell what had happened to her, and it doesn't seem to be any form of mite or parasite. The hive is still kicking right along and internally there doesn't seem to be any difference. I haven't taken it all apart to see if there's a new queen, but I'm thinking there might be.

Is this a valid theory? Could they have known there was something wrong with their existing queen (old age or disease or just a poor egg layer) and decided to replace her on their own? Is there any intervention I ought to do or should I just let them go? Normally my bees are pretty low maintenance and I don't mess with them a lot.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

have you noticed any bees bringing in pollen? very good sign that a queen is laying


was the queen you found a mature and fertile one? many superceed or swarm cell may be made,,,but only one queen will survive in the hive if superceed...there will be only two queens in a hive if plans are for a swarm...all others will be killed by the first born new queen.

you say that you saw queen cells..which type, at the very bottom of the frames (swarm cells) or on the face of the honeycomb hanging down (superceed cells). if superceed cells then yes they did indeed find the present queen lacking and decided to replace her. generally superceed queens should be replaced with a purchased queen for best hive management. but that can be checked by checking laying pattern.


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## Iddee (Sep 25, 2005)

When a hive supersedes, they make more than one queen cell. When they hatch, only one queen survives. The others are killed. That is most likely what you witnessed.


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## Hovey Hollow (Apr 25, 2005)

I'm just curious. Why would you replace a superceed queen with a purchased queen? Is it because the former queen had poor genetics? I have never purchased bees before. I've only gotten captured swarms. Guess I have an image in my head of purchased bees being like factory raised poultry. I'd rather have a swarm from a hive strong enough to swarm, or gotten from a local beekeeper that I know has strong hives. 
I guess I can see replacing that queen if her mother was a poor doer from the start, but I guess I'd be inclined to see how the new queen did first. I am a new beekeeper so I'm just thinking out loud here. What would the rational be in replacing the new queen?


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## Iddee (Sep 25, 2005)

Hovey, I am a 30 year beek and I agree with you. The only reason I see for replacing a supercede queen with a bought one is to help queen breeders make money. I would much rather have a supercede queen from the genetics I know and trust. I would definitely check the new queen's laying pattern, and keep her if she lays well.


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## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

Ernie! Good to see you here 

We had a bee inspector from DNR come talk at one of our beekeeping meetings recently. He was a wealth of information.

He said that he prefers to requeen with queens from his own hives rather than buying queens, because bought queens are bred in environments where the goal is more queens, not more brood and better food gathering. His thinking is that bought queens *might* be more likely to swarm (produce more queen cells).

He also said that he preferred to use swarm cells and usually destroyed supercede cells because swarm cells are intended to be queens from the moment the cell is built. Supercede cells are normal worker cells that are forced into being queens.

So I guess in Ernie's situation, this guy that came and talked to us would destroy the supercede cells *and* destroy the queen, and move in a swarm cell on a frame from one of his stronger colonies.

I just noticed yesterday in my weak hive that they've made two supercede cells and I am hopeful the new queen will do better than the old. While it's possible the old queen has poor genetics, it's also possible she is just old, or sick, or hasn't bounced back from the stress of moving.


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## Hovey Hollow (Apr 25, 2005)

OK, good to know I'm not wrong in my thinking!


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

well i'm not really disagreeing with ANYTH
ING said above.. the only reason for requeening a superceed queen was stated above....the workers kinda look around and decide on a worker cell to force into a superceed queen cell. if this is done to a very newly laid egg, then its ok......but the older the egg is the poorer quality the new queen will be...

i agree, queens are too expensive to purchase........but after raising them for a few years for my own use, i can also say......they're a bargain. i also use swarm cell when i find them. 

anyone here raising queens? i don't have time now, but i would like to get mt son and maybee daughter started....any new methods since 15 years ago?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Well, the queen cells I saw were at the top of the frames in the top (I use two) brood box. There were four that I could see, though I didn't dissemble anything to look any closer. So maybe that's not a bad sign. At this point I'm not really willing to purchase queens when I have a hive that's still ticking along. If it doesn't produce maximum honey then I'm ok with that, so long as it is strong enough to survive the winter. And there's two brood boxes full of honey and quite a lot of bees, so I'm hoping they can do that without issue.

Those Italian bees are so gentle and they did fill up the frames pretty quick, so I'm pleased with their performance. If I can get something with similar genetics from just letting them do their thing than I'm all the happier. As an amateur beekeeper, the less time I spend monkeying around in the boxes the better off I am.

Heya, Turtlehead.  Why did I have to stumble across this forum on my own? I would have thought someone would have filled me in before now.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

As an update, I observed today that the hive which lost its queen is carrying in pollen. My understanding is that it means there's some egg laying going on! I'm pretty excited about that, though it seems like an awful quick turn around for a new queen.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

I have a question....Will workers bring in pollen if there's a laying worker in there?


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

Very good question, dont know,,,,but my gut feeling is that the workers will be too demorlized to bring in pollen.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Well, they are raising brood....all drones, but still brood. I've only had one egg laying worker colony several years ago, and I didn't pay attention to whether they brought in pollen before I combined them with another colony.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

HMMM, the all drone laying is not a good sign,,,,,do you see cells that have two or even more eggs per cell, horrible laying pattern on the frames?


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## OkieDavid (Jan 15, 2007)

Ernie said:


> though it seems like an awful quick turn around for a new queen.


I've observed the following in my observation hive. Colony decided old queen wasn't performing up to snuff so they began supercedure. Once that decision was made, they specifically selected eggs. Contrast this with an emergency replacement where ANY suitable larvae is selected. Emergency queens are the ones that get a bad rap as needing to be replaced w/purchased queens. Anyway, three beautiful queens were created and tended just as swarm cells. The first queen out, killed the remaining two BUT the colony wouldn't let her and the old queen fight. Only after she had mated and began laying eggs side by side w/her mother did the colony decide she was a keeper and immediately stopped feeding/tending the old queen. She withered away on the bottom of the hive for about two days and once dead was removed like any other dead bee. Interestingly enough, the colony did not immediately tear down the dead virgin cells.....The dead were removed but the cells themselves were left intact for two more weeks.

David


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## Hovey Hollow (Apr 25, 2005)

Wow, David!
That was very interesting. I am more and more amazed by these little critters every day. Incredible.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Thanks, David. Bees are so awesome. 

So this probably also means little or no interruption in the honey flow. Can't wait until mid-August to see what I get!


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