# Price for side of pork



## sassafras manor (Dec 5, 2009)

I am just curious what those of you that sell whole or half hogs charge? Do you charge by the hanging weight and how much. How has the elevated price of grain affected your sale price or demand compared to last year? We raise ours on pasture and then finish on grain so while the time is longer the input costs are less. We sold ours last year at $1.00 per pound hanging weight and I felt comfortable at that price last season but I am reworking my numbers for this year.
Thanks for your responses - Matt


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## fixer1958 (Dec 12, 2005)

I sold 3 sides this year for $200 each and one whole one for $350, they paid butchering costs. Kill weight was between #250 and #275.


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## 2fat2fly (Jan 19, 2011)

fixer1958 said:


> I sold 3 sides this year for $200 each and one whole one for $350, they paid butchering costs. Kill weight was between #250 and #275.


Wow that is good. Around here they are bringing $200 on the hoof, 240-250 lbs.
Sides are around $1 a pound and $1.39 cut and wrapped, curing extra.


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## sassafras manor (Dec 5, 2009)

Would it be out of line to take the price up to $1.15/lb to help recover the grain costs. At that price it would cover all costs plus a little extra to buy a couple more feeders. They are being sold to coworkers so I want to be fair.


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## farmmaid (Jan 13, 2003)

We sold one last October for $1.73 a pound hanging weight, half to two separate people and they split the killing cost. After they paid butcher for smoking, cutting, wrapping etc. they figured they had $3.45 per pound in the meat.

They were very happy, more so after they had some to eat!!!!!!!


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## matt_man (Feb 11, 2006)

We get $1.50/lb hanging weight and they pay all butcher fees.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

We get $3.50/lb for whole pigs and $4.50/lb for half pigs based on hanging weight plus customer pays for butcher, slaughter and delivery. Prices per cut are higher, of course. We typically sell two to five hogs a week, every week of the year.

Do not undersell yourself. You hurt yourself and other farmers when you undersell. Produce a premium product and charge accordingly.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa


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## sassafras manor (Dec 5, 2009)

Since we raise ours on pasture it does take a little longer which does cost money but does produce a premium product. All of our customers to this point have been more than pleased with the eggs, beef, and turkeys we have raised on pasture, but many new customers want to compare the price of our product from the junk they can get from Wal-Mart. Once we transition them they do not contest the prices and become regular customers. We always make sure to price our product responsibly and don't undersell ourselves. What is the point of trying to be the low cost producer if you are not around after 2 years.


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## duckidaho (Dec 31, 2008)

I'm trying to limit my costs by growing my own field corn and sugar beets. Of course, I will have to use some pig feed just to make sure they are getting what they need. I also plan on hitting groceries and bakeries for stale bread and produce if they'll give it to me. And I have plenty of my own garden waste.

Any of you raise heritage pigs? How do you figure the slower growth rate and better quality meat into your pricing. I'm raising 3 pure bred Berkshires and maybe some "Red Wattles."


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## wally (Oct 9, 2007)

When I was "pigin" I sold them for 250 dollars at market weight..and still lost money using commercial feed.. Around here I can go to the local sale barn and purchase for around $42 per 100#, this brings the hog cost around 105. I bring a couple home when the weather is better ,feed them till the process plant can take them usually around 2 to 4 weeks later. Using commercial feed I cant grow them for what I can buy them for. If there was a way to make money for my investment or at least break even I would still be raising hogs..Its nice when you can raise the meat yourself but I have to watch the dollar thing..Wally


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

We can't make our costs back in the pork market - yet. Since we raise heritage breeds on pasture our cost is lower but the time to market is longer. We also aren't near enough to a city to have farmers markets where people will pay what good pork is worth. Walmart sets the prices for pork around here. 

There is a large market for traditional pork but the competition is fierce and the large producers will always be able to sell for less than what it costs a small farmer to raise pork. IMO you need to find a niche market where there aren't large producers to compete against.

In our environment we chose to sell heritage breeder piglets. We get $400 for our piglets and always sell out before they are born. The market for these piglets is continuing to grow and we can't come close to meeting the demand. We are planning to get into the pork market, selling cuts from heritage breeds, but we are still several months away from having enough product. We have friends who sell heritage pork at their farmers markets and are getting $10 to $18 per pound.

Brian


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## Charleen (May 12, 2002)

highlands said:


> Do not undersell yourself. You hurt yourself and other farmers when you undersell. Produce a premium product and charge accordingly.


 
Well said! This pertains to everything that you make/sell. I wish more producers understood this.


To determine your selling cost, you must first compile your expenses. We keep track of ALL costs as we incur them, not after the fact when we have to rely on our memory or search through the truck for receipts.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

"We keep track of ALL costs as we incur them"

Can I hire you?


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

I think in fairness to the original poster, $400 dollars for a piglet or $4.50 a pound plus butcher cost, much less 10-18 dollars a pound is hype...

The reader must be careful to separate those people who are selling pork, from those that are selling a production system, idea, or belief system.

There is always one breed that is selling out of site at the time, they promise unrealalistic profits if you buy the magic beans...

How many here have actually seen a producer consistently sell 4 dollar pork on any scale. 

A 50 sow farm could with 120 acres, that gets two litters at 8 weaned a litter every year....

could do 800 times $800 = $640,000 selling meat

the same farm could do 800 times $400 = $320000 selling weaners

these numbers are every year, year after year...


A fifty sow farm is not that big of an operation, I have done it with a full time job.

Who will admit they have ever seen one of these mythical farms, and why are those people selling the majic beans not living on one of these mythical farms...

It's a pyramid scheme, selling the latest and greatest super breed...
don't get roped in.

Careful managment can raise hogs @ 40 cents a pound

$1.00 a pound seems the absolute top price without sticking it to somebody.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Red, I live on my magical farm. Go to my website, I even have coordinates and a Google map! Come visit!

If you don't believe the prices or sales then place an order with me. I'll tell you I'm booked up through spring. And I have friends near San Antonio that are selling heritage cross pork (cross, not even purebred) at a farmers market for $10 a pound. There is a very vital niche market going on out here without you and people are making money on their investments. If that weren't true, then why are you trying to have GOS semen for sale? Wouldn't that be a very bad plan if it's all "mythical"? Aren't you trying to cash in on this real market?

These "super breeds" have been selling at near the same price for fifteen years...and no matter how often you claim otherwise...

...and I would really like to see you back this up: "Careful managment can raise hogs @ 40 cents a pound" unless, of course, you aren't speaking of small farms or including capital costs. Even then I am highly skeptical.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

sassafras, I think you are short changing yourself. If your product is pasture raised, chem. free, etc. then you should be charging decent. Illinois is not a poor area. We charge 2.50 pound hanging weight, buyer pays all butcher fees, and people are happy to pay that price.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

RedHogs said:


> I think in fairness to the original poster, $400 dollars for a piglet or $4.50 a pound plus butcher cost, much less 10-18 dollars a pound is hype...The reader must be careful to separate those people who are selling pork, from those that are selling a production system, idea, or belief system.There is always one breed that is selling out of site at the time, they promise unrealalistic profits if you buy the magic beans...How many here have actually seen a producer consistently sell 4 dollar pork on any scale.


I do it every week of the year and have been doing it for years. We have a regular weekly delivery route and standing orders from stores & restaurants within a one hour circle of our farm. We have 40 breeding sows and are gradually edging our way up to a goal of about 60 sows. This is what we do. No hype. No magic beans. No seminars. No production system sales. No books. We sell pork.

I know of quite a few other local farmers who are also doing it and I know of many more nationally who are doing it. Go to our literature page on our web site to learn more.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa


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## bruceki (Nov 16, 2009)

Highlands asks for a good price for his pork, and I can't fault him if he gets that price. A quick search of various craigslist ads from vermont: 

(2) 6 month old gilts, $150 each, boar $75

two 200lb pigs, $250 each

80-100lb roaster pigs, $1.50/lb

There are other ads, I've just listed the first few. If I were someone in vermont looking at raising pigs, I'd trust the craigslist price as a fair representation of the market. Highands has spent years building a brand and a blog and seeking press and media coverage and apparently that dilligent effort has paid off in the form of higher prices -- but I wouldn't expect his prices without exerting the same sort of effort and years of investment that he has. 

Bruce / ebeyfarm.blogspot.com


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

I've never bought anything from Craig's List. I've heard too many horror stories. It seems to be a last resort place when folks can't get rid of something.

I know horses better than pigs. Those with quality, well trained, well bred, costly horses don't advertise on CL and their horses sell well in spite of the times.


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

Brian, I checked out your website... nice website

As I suspected you have hit the wall with you market... you are selling $80 crossbreds. Why not $400 pigs... answer, there is just not enough market for $400 piglets.

You ask why I do AI sales.

The answer is simple, the market is the entire US, and I don't hype them or play politics.

Walter, you claim to not have enough sows, but you are actively trying to sell your piglets...

That means you also have hit the wall, the market is not there to support any more "pork sales" than what you are producing now, you also are selling off piglets that you can't sell as pork.

It's a numbers game,

the old joke is true... a farmer says he loses $10 a pig, but he makes it up in volume...

It actually works that way.

I ask you again, have you ever once seen a farm that can do what you do at 50 sows, which is only a fraction the size of a pro farm.

A 50 sow farm would be a common family farm size.

What if somebody read your blog and actually tried to do it, they would be ruined.

I bet if you lowered your prices, you wouldn't need to sell piglets, you would sell more pork, and make more money...


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Thanks, Red, but look again. You need to see the Purchase page for the purebreds.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

RedHogs said:


> Walter, you claim to not have enough sows, but you are actively trying to sell your piglets...


Those two things are completely consistent with each other. Shame you can't figure it out. I sell pigs at the weaner end of the spectrum to hit one part of the market, roasters in between and pork at the top. It's called market diversification. In addition to that we sell both to individuals and wholesale to stores and restaurants. Again, diversification. To cover all of those markets we don't have enough production - that is to say we could easily sell a lot more than we do. I've not "hit any wall" in sales at all.

You just don't understand how business works. I choose to grow slowly and gradually, building all of my systems up at a gentle steady pace over many years. You on the other hand might make an entirely different business decision to start out with 1,000 sows, build large confinement buildings, put in farrowing stalls, what ever fills your fancy. It's your choice to do what you do. I do it a bit differently. Relax.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa


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## Sharedspirit (Aug 16, 2008)

In my area of WV, it's been hard to sell weaner pigs anytime other than spring. Nobody wants to raise them through the winter. So right now I have 9 100 lb piggies on pasture with their mom. We will have no trouble selling them as butchering hogs when they are ready. 

My rant is that folks around here under price their hogs so much that it's hard to sell them at a decent price. In the spring, you find lots of weaners for sale in the local area for $50 each. I know people are losing money on these pigs and it's making it very hard for us to sell them at a decent price. 

I need to work on my marketing. I can't tell you how many times someone has come to our farm and not bought a hog because they can get one a lot cheaper at the livestock auctions. I tell them about quality of product but they want wal-mart prices. We do have a few customers who care more about quality of product but I need to find more of those folks!


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## pointer_hunter (May 8, 2004)

When I determined the price of my hogs, I called the processor that I normally go with and asked them what pork was currently going per hanging wt. At the time it was .80/lb so I told customers that I would sell at 1.00/lb and they could pay the processing. I ran out of cheaper, local grain and had to go with purchased grain from a mill. With that, I think I am breaking even with this batch. I always feel bad when asking higher amounts when I know they can get it other places cheaper. However, recently people have been asking me if I am even making any money with this, which has me thinking that they will pay even higher prices. So, I think the next time around I am going to raise the price a bit and get a line on more local feeds to cut down on cost. I've also come to the point that if someone tells me they can get a hog cheaper at the sale, I give them the quickest directions to the sale barn.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

I sell my Heratage cross breeds at 2-3 times what an average pig costs (8 weeks old) and could sell many more than I can currently produce. I am growing slowly as to not flood the market. I sell to people who raise pork for resturants and do not want the bother of holding breeding stock.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Take a look in the super market and see what the customers there are accustomed to paying. That's why they think $1 a pound is cheap.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Apples and Oranges. Supermarket CAFO pork is a different product. Yes, priced on sale as a loss lead or almost out of date as the Manager's Special it is about $1/lb. Don't compete against that. It's not real pricing. Commodity pricing and auctions are a great way to sell at the rock bottom prices and lose money. Produce a premium product and charge accordingly.


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

I sell mine about in the middle of this range. I have a few people I'll help out; but I'm pretty set and thinking of raising. Now I don't sell out, but I'd rather eat them myself than let them go any cheaper.

Walter I really respect the fact that you don't sell every pig as a breeder. You can select the ones that make it and still process a lot of pork to fill your orders. That is responsible breeding and I would rather pay top dollar for one of your gilts than some of these "Heritage" breeds which are super pigs and can throw all premium piglets. Heck I like to eat them anyway.


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## RW kansas hogs (Nov 19, 2010)

We have 5 barrows to sell in the next two months and we are starting out at $1.00 a pound, As our farm grows to a 60 head sow farm we will increase the price slowly. Right now we have a variety of cross's and will be switching to Berkshires & Berk cross's, That is unless our Wild Russian cross's make a big hit with the public because around hear people want a hog that has fat on it, Yes fat that you can see on the hog.


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## Apryl in ND (Jan 31, 2010)

RW- how much lard would you say the Russian Hogs have vs. a commercial breed pig? I need a pig that has a lot of fat to make soap with. What kind of an attitude do they have?


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

try poland chinas. we had some once. they were fat jiggly yucks. no problems with their attitudes. they were tame.


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## Jcran (Jan 4, 2006)

We sell ours for $3/lb whole side...they have to butcher it out themselves. That being said, I sold a half and then went to the place and showed them how I learned off the dvd to do it. Helped pay for my feed costs.


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## RW kansas hogs (Nov 19, 2010)

We butcherd a Russian wild Boar Cross gilt two weeks ago here at home and it was our first time butchering a hog so it was interesting for us. We had 2 five gallon buckets of fat from that one gilt. She was 9 months old and was short in lenght and stocky. We skined her out like a person would with a deer and there was 1 to 2 inch's of fat on her hide. When we cut the porkchops i measured the fat on them and it was an 1 1/2 thick then we trimmed it down to a 1/4 inch.
I cut a slab of fat off the one side and it was 8inches wide & almost 2 ft long by 2 inches thick. All fat


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## RW kansas hogs (Nov 19, 2010)

Our Wild Russian Cross piglets are very well manered if you spend time with them, Thats something i do everyday


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## STxHeritagePork (Jun 30, 2011)

I know this is an old thread, but we came across this while doing one of our normal weekly searches on various aspects of pork. I was not a member and could not see the profiles, but after reading this thread was pretty sure our good buddy Brian was referring to our farm in his post (regarding the farm that is asking $10-18 retail). 

So here is my (our) take on pricing pork. 

The price you should be placing on your pork should be directly relational to what you can get for it. Sounds simple enough, right? 

You should evaluate your current marketing opportunities and selling opportunities and base your farm and products around what will bring you the most profit margin. If you do not have a local retail market, as Brian has stated he does not, then you must be able and willing to adapt in a way to maximize your exposure. Brian is able to ship his piglets all over the nation, so therefore he gets much more exposure to folks who are able to breed their own stock and then sell in their local retail markets. We need the Brian's of the world in order to create more pork producers. Without both sides of the business, neither works effectively. I think you also must be a breeder first in order to create a good herd, and to sustain your pork pigs while they are growing.

If you do have a retail market, you should charge accordingly. If you come in just over the local retail price and you are selling top quality heritage pork, you are doing yourself, your consumer, and your fellow heritage pork producers a HUGE disservice. Don't think giving it away is going to make you rich. To whomever said "farmer looses $10 per pig and makes it up in volume." I'd like to see your math. 

-10 * 1,000 = -10,000 
-10 * 500 = -5,000
-10 * 10,000 = -100,000

Not what my bank account likes to see.

If you are creating a top quality product, you should price it as such. Commercial hog farms are able to sell their product at a price in which most of us cannot even begin to imagine raising one hog for the cost. Yet they are thriving because of the volume, but they are not selling at a loss. 

Educating your consumers on what they are actually getting for their money is much better served. You do NOT need scare tactics. Just mean what you say, and do what you mean. We promote an all natural, pasture-raised, top quality pork. And for that we ask a good retail price. And our loyal customers are happy to pay it (yes, we do charge $10-$18 for our prime cuts and $6.50 per pound plus processing on wholesale). You are welcome to come and look around yourself if you would like. Or just try some. You'll be back for more. And you will appreciate the 14 months of effort put into every bite.

Best regards and happy farming,

Kelley Escobedo 
South Texas Heritage Pork
www.SouthTexasHeritagePork.com


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Well said, Kelley, and welcome to the Homestead! 

Kelley and Mark have created a rewarding market in South Texas; an area not known for its gourmet cuisine. They did it through hard work and very good analysis of what their customers want. I've been to their farm a couple of times and it is the same type of small family farm that most of us have. By making the best of what is available, including seasonal pasture and alternative feed sources, they have a great herd of healthy pigs from which they produce pork that is well known as healthy and very delicious. If they have done it so can you.

We need more "Kelleys" to show how we can resurrect the small farm pork producers in our country. We can create great sources of home grown meat for consumers around the nation and keep more families on their farms. The Escobedos are one example of how it is being done; there are hundreds of others; what we all need to do is to celebrate their success and support them by choosing to buy our meat and produce at their farms and the Farmers Markets where they sell. 

As individual farmers we need to understand that we are not in competition; either with Big Ag or the small farm down the road. We all need to become better educated about our markets, reach out to the folks outside our counties and states, and produce the type of products that deserve their respect and support. 

Brian


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## bruceki (Nov 16, 2009)

With respect to various producers in this thread, what is missing is the scale of their operation. One fellow claims 40 sows and another poster does the math and figures out that he'd be making $320,000 a year if he sold pigs at the price he claims -- and that same producer is scrabbling to find a loan to finish his construction project. If you're grossing $320k a year and your feed is free and your land is paid for, you write a check for $150k. So who do you believe? 

You can put any price you want on a product, and you might even sell a few, but the alternative view is that having a larger number of customers, and being a little lower cost will result in a more stable business that you can grow and provide for many more people. 

One fellow wrote "I found my market to be people who could pay any price for meat, and I didn't like that. I don't want to cater solely to the top income earners, I think my product should be more available than that".

And that's the way I feel about my production. 

Bruce / ebeyfarm.blogspot.com


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## RW kansas hogs (Nov 19, 2010)

Very well put Bruceki


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## Brooks WV (Jul 24, 2010)

Interesting, and timely, to see this thread re-emerge. For the record: I read Walters/Bruces/Brians sites ad nauseam before I ventured into pastured heritage pigs. I started small, 2 boars and a gilt - in southern WV. For the past two months, my pigs have had ZERO feed (boars are 6 months / gilt is 9), they have been on pasture and in the woods. The gilt is now 240# as measured by the tape formula and the boars are 170 and 182. I have done no advertising, aside from looking for a boar on the GOSA website and meeting people here. My gilt is pregnant and I have already sold 8 piglets that are not even born. I have had 3 offers to purchase the boars for slaughter, despite mentioning that they will be about $4/lb (I'm only selling one, keeping the other for my own freezer). The point here, to counter the opposition, is that these animals, and their system isn't "magic beans". They sell, and they sell very well. More people are realizing that mass produced, cheap (lesser quality) isnt always the best way. If that were the case, we'd all be driving Hyuandai Accents. My pastured, heritage breed pigs have done exactly what Brian and Walter have claimed.


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## STxHeritagePork (Jun 30, 2011)

Bruce, we agree, somewhat. However, there is not enough supply in all the United States for the demand for heritage pork. This is the most rare pork around. And the only way to get the supply is to spread the word and show farmers and ranchers how they can also make a profit raising pigs. 

What it comes down to is pricing to achieve your goals. If your goal is to provide a few hogs each year to supply to your local neighborhood, family and friends, and you are willing to continue to have a full time job outside the farm, then you price accordingly and make just enough to cover your feed and expenses, maybe break even if you are lucky. 

If you are planning to have a successful business selling pork you had better price to make a profit. On the converse side of your statement about someone not wanting to sell to someone that will "pay any price" I have had restaurant owners tell me they will NOT buy my product UNLESS I sell at a profit. 

Good quality and attention to that quality is what the educated consumer wants. You don't go looking for a Rolls Royce at a used car dealership and you don't go looking for a used Honda at a Rolls dealership. Just doesn't make sense. You price to your customer and you base that price on what the market will accept versus your costs. 

I could sell my pork at a lot less than I am now and probably not sell a whole lot more. Why? Because as I have said many times, if you are pricing just over retail you are doing this pork, your customers, your friends and your fellow farmers/ranchers a HUGE disservice. You should not be targeting the demographic that shops for meat at Wal-Mart. You should be targeting the demographic that knows and understands what good quality is all about and how much your health will benefit from that quality. 

This isn't regular pork. And it should not be priced as such, nor should it be treated or raised as such. This is a business and we are committed not only to taking care of our valued customers, but also to providing the very best quality pork we possibly can. 

Happy Pigging.
Kelley

P.S. If you want people to buy your pork, don't be afraid to give a lot of it away. Might sound contradictory to what I said earlier, but its not. Sampling is a valid expense in a business and is quite important in being able to show the quality and value of your product. If you can get a chef to demo your product and give out samples, even better. Give samples to anyone in the food industry you think might have an impact. You'd be surprised at how quickly word gets out. Good quality pork is hard to come by in the US. Its time people got as serious about pork as they have about the other meats they consume.


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## Sharedspirit (Aug 16, 2008)

Brooks WV said:


> Interesting, and timely, to see this thread re-emerge. For the record: I read Walters/Bruces/Brians sites ad nauseam before I ventured into pastured heritage pigs. I started small, 2 boars and a gilt - in southern WV. For the past two months, my pigs have had ZERO feed (boars are 6 months / gilt is 9), they have been on pasture and in the woods. The gilt is now 240# as measured by the tape formula and the boars are 170 and 182. I have done no advertising, aside from looking for a boar on the GOSA website and meeting people here. My gilt is pregnant and I have already sold 8 piglets that are not even born. I have had 3 offers to purchase the boars for slaughter, despite mentioning that they will be about $4/lb (I'm only selling one, keeping the other for my own freezer). The point here, to counter the opposition, is that these animals, and their system isn't "magic beans". They sell, and they sell very well. More people are realizing that mass produced, cheap (lesser quality) isnt always the best way. If that were the case, we'd all be driving Hyuandai Accents. My pastured, heritage breed pigs have done exactly what Brian and Walter have claimed.


How long does it take to raise them to about 250 lbs on pasture & woods? And what kind of fencing are you using? We have electric right now but the grass is growing so fast we spend way more time weed whacking the fence than I want to! I really wish I would have found this site before we bought our hogs. I would have done things a lot different.


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## Brooks WV (Jul 24, 2010)

Sharedspirit said:


> How long does it take to raise them to about 250 lbs on pasture & woods? And what kind of fencing are you using? We have electric right now but the grass is growing so fast we spend way more time weed whacking the fence than I want to! I really wish I would have found this site before we bought our hogs. I would have done things a lot different.


SS,

I picked the pigs up at the end of February. The gilt was 4 months old, the boars were 2 months old. My best guess is the boars were 40#'s, the gilt was about 75# - although after wrestling her in the NE Ohio snow,, I was sure she went at least 200 pounds! So I brought them home to S.WV and they stayed in the barnyard pen for about two weeks. I fed them Organic swine feed supplemented with organic field peas. I ran 5 wire high-tensile fence (spaced 6-8-12-12-12), enclosing about 5 acres of pasture and 8 acres of woods. The pigs feast on acorns, buckeyes, hickory nuts, walnuts and the usual assortment of roots & bugs. In April, the pasture started greening with clover, alfalfa and plantain. In about mid-May, I finished their feed and peas and they've been on their own since. The gilt is 240 now and the boars are ~180. The Hickory nuts and walnuts are starting to drop, so they've been busy with them, coming to the pasture in the evening for their salad. This fall, they will have all the apples and nuts they can eat. Hope to have some tasty pork!

~Mark


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## Sharedspirit (Aug 16, 2008)

Brooks WV said:


> SS,
> 
> I picked the pigs up at the end of February. The gilt was 4 months old, the boars were 2 months old. My best guess is the boars were 40#'s, the gilt was about 75# - although after wrestling her in the NE Ohio snow,, I was sure she went at least 200 pounds! So I brought them home to S.WV and they stayed in the barnyard pen for about two weeks. I fed them Organic swine feed supplemented with organic field peas. I ran 5 wire high-tensile fence (spaced 6-8-12-12-12), enclosing about 5 acres of pasture and 8 acres of woods. The pigs feast on acorns, buckeyes, hickory nuts, walnuts and the usual assortment of roots & bugs. In April, the pasture started greening with clover, alfalfa and plantain. In about mid-May, I finished their feed and peas and they've been on their own since. The gilt is 240 now and the boars are ~180. The Hickory nuts and walnuts are starting to drop, so they've been busy with them, coming to the pasture in the evening for their salad. This fall, they will have all the apples and nuts they can eat. Hope to have some tasty pork!
> 
> ~Mark


Thanks! You are where I want to be by next year. Have the fence & land, just need the muscle to put it up! I have 3 strands now but I think I'm going to go with 5. I think that is a much better way to raise hogs and it should reflect in the taste & price of pork.


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## bruceki (Nov 16, 2009)

Your pasture setup allows for 13 acres of forage for 3 pigs. At that stocking level I'd believe that they can find enough food in the spring and summer to gain weight. Walter has claimed to do this stocking pigs at 20 per acre and with no supplental feed of any sort, which I don't think is possible. So I offered him $10,000 to raise four of his pigs per his specifications and on the timeline he's claimed. 

So far he hasn't taken me up on my offer. Why not? It's an easy $10,000

Wild hogs do grow and gain weight without any supplemntal feeding (at least intentional feeding -- they eat crops all the time, and some hunters do feed them to keep them around so they can shoot them easier). So that's not what I'm objecting to. It's the whole setup described. I just don't think it's possible. 

And so far I still have my $10,000.00 So who are you going to believe? My bank account, or his pig raising story? 

$10,000 challenge post


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## bruceki (Nov 16, 2009)

Stx: I'm all for folks making a profit. I'm just a bit tired of catering to the rich or the trendy; I'm a little more egalitarian than that. 

And my herd is berkshire and hampshire, primarily. I raise heritage breeds for taste, because they're what I enjoy eating myself, and for no other reason. Just so happens that lots of folks agree with me, which pleases me to no end. I think you're probably similar.


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## Tall Grille (May 4, 2011)

I am raising 5 pigs in the back yard, I am unable to pasture them as we only have 3 acres and this is used for gardens, pigs, and kids to play in and about 1 acre is still overgrown with brush (I am working on this). I am feeding them mostly commercial grain (Blue Seal Pig and Sow) and they get about 3-5 lbs of apples a day that fall from the 70 year old golden delicious trees on the property. I am tracking all of my expenses and dividing them evenly between the "owners" of each pig. I have spent $1925.61 so far and have 4 weeks left till slaughter. From here out I plan to just buy feed which should finish them off at under $450 each. This is all expenses including fencing and lumber to build their shelters, and purchasing the piglets. I have found a few ways to save money throughout this experience and I think I will be around $300 ea pig next year. I have friends and family lined up to buy a whole pig on the hoof next summer/fall for $400ea. I am not looking to make a profit here but if I can raise 6 or 7 pigs a year and get mine for free and a free one for my mother(I use her land) I will be happy for now. Someday I may look into breeding and doing this for profit but without the pasture land available now, it seems like it would be too costly to keep a Boar around when Piglets cost $80.


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## Brooks WV (Jul 24, 2010)

bruceki said:


> ... I'm just a bit tired of catering to the rich or the trendy; I'm a little more egalitarian than that. Bruce


Yeah, I hear their money isn't as good, they leave "rich germs" on it- wouldn't want to catch a case of Rich...LOL

If the "rich or the trendy" are willing and able to buy a higher quality product, why would you not sell or market to them? 

~Mark


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## HardBall (Dec 23, 2010)

We charge $1.25/lb on the hang weight + butchering and come out very comfortiable. We do not pasture like Sugar Mountain does. It really comes down to what you exactly are producing, and finding the players in that game to find your price points.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Brooks WV said:


> Yeah, I hear their money isn't as good, they leave "rich germs" on it- wouldn't want to catch a case of Rich...LOL
> 
> If the "rich or the trendy" are willing and able to buy a higher quality product, why would you not sell or market to them?
> 
> ~Mark


Nothing wrong with selling to the rich and trendy but what are you to do when the trend ends? From my point of view your selling feel good hype more then product with pastured heritage pork. Some day something else will be cool what then?

Mark I'm not pointing this at you but asking everybody for input.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Tall Grille: "about 1 acre is still overgrown with brush"

We bought a bunch of goats to clear out our woods. Then we began our hog herd and started running them in the woods. We learned that the hogs did a much better job at clearing the brush than the goats, so now we no longer have goats.

Allen W: "From my point of view your selling feel good hype more then product with pastured heritage pork."

It might be hype if there were no difference between pastured pork and CAFO pork. But pastured pork is so much better, and the people that produce it on their farms work hard enough, that the price is justified. The common customer is the person that understand this and wants to feed his or her family healthy and tasty pork by choosing to get it from the small farmers that produce it instead of BigAg. Has nothing to do with economic class; it has to do with respect for the pigs and the families that work hard on their farms.

But I do get bothered by farmers that undercut others and say they are doing so to be "egalitarian". Small farmers were almost driven out of existence in our country; you should be doing all you can to support other small farmers and that includes not harming them by driving the price down. No children are going to starve if their families can't afford the best pork but they might if their parents can't make any money off of their farm.


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## Sharedspirit (Aug 16, 2008)

Brooks WV said:


> Interesting, and timely, to see this thread re-emerge. For the record: I read Walters/Bruces/Brians sites ad nauseam before I ventured into pastured heritage pigs. I started small, 2 boars and a gilt - in southern WV. For the past two months, my pigs have had ZERO feed (boars are 6 months / gilt is 9), they have been on pasture and in the woods. The gilt is now 240# as measured by the tape formula and the boars are 170 and 182. I have done no advertising, aside from looking for a boar on the GOSA website and meeting people here. My gilt is pregnant and I have already sold 8 piglets that are not even born. I have had 3 offers to purchase the boars for slaughter, despite mentioning that they will be about $4/lb (I'm only selling one, keeping the other for my own freezer). The point here, to counter the opposition, is that these animals, and their system isn't "magic beans". They sell, and they sell very well. More people are realizing that mass produced, cheap (lesser quality) isnt always the best way. If that were the case, we'd all be driving Hyuandai Accents. My pastured, heritage breed pigs have done exactly what Brian and Walter have claimed.



Are you selling most off your pigs locally or are you having to ship?


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## cooper101 (Sep 13, 2010)

STxHeritagePork said:


> P.S. If you want people to buy your pork, don't be afraid to give a lot of it away. Might sound contradictory to what I said earlier, but its not. Sampling is a valid expense in a business and is quite important in being able to show the quality and value of your product. If you can get a chef to demo your product and give out samples, even better.


I supplied the pig for a pig roast at work. I sold it to the company for cost plus just a little. That brought a few customers. Then I gave good deals to a couple selected people who 'know a few people.' I sold a half to my boss and his family wants 3 whole pigs from the next batch. My next batch of 12 isn't even here yet and I have 6 of them sold. I've been 'practicing' so far and getting my set-up tweaked, but on this batch, the price goes up significantly. Depends on the socio-economic area you try to sell, but there's no shortage of people around here who recognize the value of humane pork. First thing I tell everybody is that it's not cheaper, and it's fattier, but it tastes soooo much better and it had a good, clean life. People like that idea.


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## bruceki (Nov 16, 2009)

Re: selling to rich and trendy -- I don't think that $400 piglets are sustainable. Ostriches, Emus, Alpacas, Llamas, Pigeons -- all of those animals have had their bubble and burst. They all had people paying amazing amounts of money for breeding pairs, and they all dropped in value, and those are just the latest ones. Heritage pork / rare breeds hasn't had the sort of price rise that other bubbles have, but $400 per piglet seems bubbly to me. 

I'm fine with selling to whomever wants to buy, but I don't offer my products at a price that excludes 80% of the market. 

With respect to "undercutting other farmers" -- you're saying that I should be selling my pork at the price dictated by the least efficient producer? Really? Is there any other product that you buy because it's the most expensive? I suppose I could find a blacksmith to hand-forge my hammer for me, or my shovel. And since the volume is so low $500 would be a fair price, to support their family, right? 


Pigeon king -- an animal-based pyramid scheme.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

HeritagePigs said:


> Allen W: "From my point of view your selling feel good hype more then product with pastured heritage pork."
> 
> It might be hype if there were no difference between pastured pork and CAFO pork. But pastured pork is so much better, and the people that produce it on their farms work hard enough, that the price is justified. The common customer is the person that understand this and wants to feed his or her family healthy and tasty pork by choosing to get it from the small farmers that produce it instead of BigAg. Has nothing to do with economic class; it has to do with respect for the pigs and the families that work hard on their farms.
> 
> But I do get bothered by farmers that undercut others and say they are doing so to be "egalitarian". Small farmers were almost driven out of existence in our country; you should be doing all you can to support other small farmers and that includes not harming them by driving the price down. No children are going to starve if their families can't afford the best pork but they might if their parents can't make any money off of their farm.


If I could sell an acceptable product at a lower price then you to your costumers why shouldn't I? It's called competition.


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## cooper101 (Sep 13, 2010)

bruceki said:


> Pigeon king -- an animal-based pyramid scheme.


Sorry to hijack the thread, but I went to this link and couldn't believe it was real. Did this really happen? Every post was worse than the last. Unbelievable.


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## cooper101 (Sep 13, 2010)

Allen W said:


> If I could sell an acceptable product at a lower price then you to your costumers why shouldn't I? It's called competition.


If lowest price won... no wait, that's why we have Walmart. I was the cost accountant at a company that sold to Walmart. We were thrilled to get the Walmart contract until the (very) easy math showed that we lost money on every sale to them. 

The product is different and better when it's home grown. It should cost more and it should cost as much as people are willing to pay. I don't think pork will ever 'bubble.' It's too much of a commodity already. There's some acceptable markup for home-grown. It'll never go too much beyond that. It should go to something well above retail.


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## Brooks WV (Jul 24, 2010)

SS- I'm not shipping, the customers will pick them up here on the farm.


This is a HOMESTEADING site, I dont think anyone here is trying to compete with a commercial operation. We're raising/selling/eating animals that are not mainstream- there's a reason for it. We desire something better; more wholesome and sustainable. I, for one, am willing to pay a premium for what I feel is better for my family. There is no "magic bean" philosophy, no pyramid, no deception. Walter and Brians sites were extremely helpful, and I found nothing mis-leading. My pork will sell itself, at a premium price, and my litter that has yet to born is already sold out. Seem pretty simple to me; quality sells itself.


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## STxHeritagePork (Jun 30, 2011)

Most of our customers are not rich. In fact, many of them are working hard to make a living for their families. The reason they are willing to pay more for good quality has to do with their health and the health of the animals they are consuming. Educated consumers have begun to demand a better product. A better beef, a better chicken and now finally a better pork. 

This is not some fancy species that no one would think of eating. This is pork. And there is a large population of folks who love good pork. Heritage pork is not hype. And it would not be so expensive if more people were willing to raise them. 

The consumer is becoming more educated and less willing to accept things just because large manufacturers and producers want to make lots of money. We conducted a demo with a local chef at our Saturday farmers market this weekend. What he told the crowd hits very close to home for us. "You should be concerned if you can buy meat for less per pound than the price of a cucumber." 

There is a huge demand for meat produced in a humane environment, the old fashioned, slow but good, all natural way.


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

Allen, if you sincerely do not believe there is a significant difference between pastured heritage pork and the CAFO stuff, then don't raise it. It does cost more, and you would be lying to your customers in asking them to pay that extra cost.

Those of us who sincerely believe we have a better product don't have that issue.

There is a second issue. What is a long term sustainable price differential for the premium vs. commodity product. If you don't believe pastured heritage is a premium product, then logically you think the sustainable premium is zero.

My personal take is that there is an established market for "industrial organic" food, and that at least for meat, eggs and veggies a noticeable difference in taste as well as feel good items. I believe my stuff (including but not limited to pigs) tastes even better. If I can get a premium to grocery store organic, I'll certainly take it. But as long as I can turn a profit selling against grocery store organic eggs, or the real butcher shop instead of Wal-Mart's meat counter, then I think I'm as secure as I have been in any day job since about 1992.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Promote your product, tell your story, but don't tell mistruths about commercial pork production.

I found this on a website promoting a farm's product: "We never give any of our animals growth hormones, steroids or unnecessary antibiotics."

Well neither do commercial pigs. There are no hormones or steroids approved or used in commercial livestock production. Plus veterinarians and farmers use antibiotics to treat diseases, I know of very few pork farms that use growth-promotion levels of feed grade antibiotics.

I applaud the efforst of Walter, Bruce, and others that are selling high-quality pork products to their customers. The found a niche and are filling it.

Jim


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

Lazy J said:


> Jim,
> 
> There is still a lot of recombinant Bovine Growth Hormone used out there. The dairy cows it's used on end up at the meat counter. I am totally in favor of using antibiotics to treat diseases.
> 
> ...


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

FrankRichards said:


> Jim,
> 
> There is still a lot of recombinant Bovine Growth Hormone used out there. The dairy cows it's used on end up at the meat counter. I am totally in favor of using antibiotics to treat diseases..


We are talking about pigs, the quote I posted was from a pig producer, not a dairy producer.

The fact remains that Hormones and Steroids are NOT fed to pigs destined for market animals.

The whole Antibiotics issue is much more cloudy and data can be found to support both the continued use and the banning. We in the Livestock Feeding Industry feel that Growth Promotional levels of Feed Grade Antibiotics will be banned in the next few years, but Treatment and Prevetion uses will remain, but with greater regulation and oversight.

Jim


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

FrankRichards said:


> But I most sincerely believe, backed by both the AMA and the CDC that the appropriate usage of "growth-promotion levels of feed grade antibiotics." is zero.


I am not a proponent of growth promotional levels of Feed Grade Antibiotics. Fortunately we have new nono antibiotic products that can give a similar, but less consistent, response in pigs and chickens. 

Jim


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

FrankRichards said:


> Allen, if you sincerely do not believe there is a significant difference between pastured heritage pork and the CAFO stuff, then don't raise it. It does cost more, and you would be lying to your customers in asking them to pay that extra cost.
> 
> Those of us who sincerely believe we have a better product don't have that issue.


It's not fair to compare any localy procesed animal to the junk that comes out of a grocery store. The only fair comparison would be two locally processed animals. That was what was in the back of my mind when I started asking questions We eat very little meat out of the store so store bought meat doesn't even enter into my thinking on the comparison. 

So the big question is if I pulled a hog of the feeder, outside pen on dirt, and you pulled a hog from the pasture just how much difference is there really?

"Promote your product, tell your story, but don't tell mistruths about commercial pork production." I agree with Jim 100% on this.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

"So the big question is if I pulled a hog of the feeder, outside pen on dirt, and you pulled a hog from the pasture just how much difference is there really?"

Significant difference. Pork from grass/pasture fed hogs is much healthier. Google it.

Sustainable farming is also much better for our environment. Fewer outside inputs results in better utilization of non-sustainable resources. It's a better way to farm.


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## STxHeritagePork (Jun 30, 2011)

I don't see how telling consumers we do not give antibiotics or growth stimulants is bashing commercial farming or telling mistruths (I'm only assuming that came from my website since it is verbatim off of one of my pages on my site). We are not stating what anyone else does or does not do, only what we do and how we do it. And by far this is the #1 question we are asked by our customers.

I also find it interesting that most all swine feed in our local feed stores contains some sort of medication and / or growth enhancer, which is why we make our own feed.

I do tell my customers the truth. And if that bothers the commercial farmers, I am sorry. I wish the commercial farmers would spend some time on our farm with our pigs. We spend 14 months getting ours to market weight. We spend more time and money on water alone than most pork producers do on their entire costs. Water, time, shade, open air pens, freedom to act and be as pigs should. I guarantee there is a difference. 

As far as the difference just because it is heritage pork. We have raised both domestic and heritage breed hogs in the exact same fashion. Apples to apples, if you will. Heritage pork is far superior in taste and quality. Hands down. Domestic pork in a natural environment is quite good. Many producers raise a fine product and we applaud them for it. But the heritage breeds do taste better and have a better quality of intramuscular fat. Pork is what they were designed for.


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

Allen W said:


> It's not fair to compare any localy procesed animal to the junk that comes out of a grocery store. The only fair comparison would be two locally processed animals. That was what was in the back of my mind when I started asking questions We eat very little meat out of the store so store bought meat doesn't even enter into my thinking on the comparison.
> 
> So the big question is if I pulled a hog of the feeder, outside pen on dirt, and you pulled a hog from the pasture just how much difference is there really?
> 
> "Promote your product, tell your story, but don't tell mistruths about commercial pork production." I agree with Jim 100% on this.


Garbage, top to bottom. Jim says that I should price my pork against the CAFO stuff in the grocery store. We seem to agree about how dumb that is.

So now we're on to locally processed. We agree. 

So back to the animal. Small pen, GMO corn and soy, animal bred to not die under those conditions for 20 generations.

Multiacre paddock. Plants and animals on the ground. Food inspected for human consumption but we ran out of humans. Take your choice.

I. Do. Not. Believe. That. I. Have. Told. A. Mistruth. I will happily look Smithfield and Monsanto in the eye and call them liars.


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## HardBall (Dec 23, 2010)

Since we are talking about funds... How many folks selling pigs in here pay the National Pork Checkoff?


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

FrankRichards said:


> Garbage, top to bottom. Jim says that I should price my pork against the CAFO stuff in the grocery store. We seem to agree about how dumb that is.


You need to read what I actually wrote. I NEVER said you should sell your product for the same price! I simple said to tell your story and promote your product without usinf mistruths abiut the pork the American Farmer supplies to the majority of the US consumers.

Jim


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## OldNight (Jul 10, 2011)

I have two main thoughts on this issue:

1) Comparing small scale pig raisers to the emu, etc bubbles doesn't work because people eat pork anyway. You're not selling anything new except taste - small scale, pastured pork tastes better than CAFO pork. People who are motivated by taste shop accordingly. Beer is a good example, most of us don't buy the cheapest we can find, but stick with a brand we prefer. 

2) FWIW I buy pastured heritage pork from a local farmer and I am by no means rich or "trendy". It tastes better and I like to keep my money local too.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

What really chaps my axx is when anyone comes on this board and tries to put down the efforts of small farmers or tries to support the foreign corporations that supply pork to Walmart. This is a homesteading forum; what we all should be doing is finding ways to support small farmers that raise hogs. Arguing amongst ourselves about whether a small farmer is charging too much for his or her efforts only benefits the shareholders of Big Ag. I'm not here for them. Why are the rest of you here?


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

HeritagePigs said:


> What really chaps my axx is when anyone comes on this board and tries to put down the efforts of small farmers or tries to support the foreign corporations that supply pork to Walmart. This is a homesteading forum; what we all should be doing is finding ways to support small farmers that raise hogs. Arguing amongst ourselves about whether a small farmer is charging too much for his or her efforts only benefits the shareholders of Big Ag. I'm not here for them. Why are the rest of you here?


I have customers that own between 2 and 35,000 sows and control the nutrition programs for more than 2 million markets hogs every year. We also raise our own pigs for our freezer and sell to our neighbors.

I have customers that have on farm butchering and sell to local customers as well as White Table Cloth restaurants in Chicago and Cincinnati. I also have customers that supply pork to the Niman Ranch system.

I fully support both commercial agriculture and the niche pork producer. However, I will not stand idly by while people tell mistruths or outright lies about the American Farmers that produce wholesome, affordable food for the US consumer.

If my experiences are not welcome or valued, take it up with the moderators to have me banned from the forum.

Jim


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Just asking a few questions about some thing I don't fully understand. I don't understand the attitude against questions that don't follow a few specific peoples agenda.


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## HardBall (Dec 23, 2010)

The misinformation in this thread is appauling... I do not know where you all get your information. The number 1 hog processer in the world is Smithfield Foods based in Virgina... The United States is the largest exporter of pork in the world. We import pork from 1st world nations only: Canada mainly. I am a niche producer like most on this forum. Selling to my local community and trying to build a great successful business, but I will not stand idley by and let any of you bash the great American pork producers throught this country. I would bet that any of their hogs are more healthy than yours when they go to slaughter. You can show me evidence that pasture pork is more healthy than large farms, but I can show you just as many that prove your wrong. We all fill a void in the markets of the world, work with your business, but please stop bashing others. thanks


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## bruceki (Nov 16, 2009)

Oldnight: Commodities are subject to bubbles, too. The fact that people eat pork doesn't mean that it's immune to bubbles. When I see livestock selling for for 10x the cost of production there's some sort of inflation effect going on. 

Bruce / ebeyfarm.blogspot.com


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## STxHeritagePork (Jun 30, 2011)

I see a lot of people saying there is bashing going on. I just don't see the bashing. Where are the outright lies and mistruths? Show me lies on my website and I'll remove them.

Just because I claim I have a healthy, happy animal and that my pork is of the best quality I can provide does not mean I'm bashing anyone's efforts. Funny how things get turned around. What I say on my website is 100% true and my customers are welcome to come and see for themselves. How many large farms will even say how they raise their animals let alone show people? Or how they inject them with "enhancers" prior to the pork ending up on the shelf? 

I think its interesting how this started by someone saying I should not be selling my pork for a higher price because it is no different than commercial pork. Then it turns into how we, who think about the animal first, who want a better quality for our families and our neighbors, are bashing the American Farmer. 

I'm not a hater. I respect everyone's right to have a job and to do what they must to support their families. I just don't think anyone should be hating on the small farmer because we are trying to do something good. 

Heritage breeds are almost extinct because of commercial farming. That is not a lie, that is a fact. Pasture pork is better for the animal. Better for the environment. Better for the local economy and better for your health. Doesn't mean there isn't a market for commercial pork, and there always will be. Just means that some people have a choice. Isn't that the American Dream?


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

"However, I will not stand idly by while people tell mistruths or outright lies about the American Farmers that produce wholesome, affordable food for the US consumer."

Good! I want you to support the American Farmers. But if you think that Smithfield and similar Corporations are "Farmers" then you've drunk too much of their KoolAid.

A CAFO is not a farm and the people that own it and work there are not farmers. It is a pork factory. It is a production facility where items are manufactured under controlled conditions and according to well defined production plans. Each facility has or is managed by a Plant Manager, Production Manager, Facilities Manager, Environmental Health and Safety Manager, Purchasing Manager, Logistics Manager, Human Resources Manager... They are directed by a Board of Directors, CEO, CFO and slew of Directors at the demands of their Shareholders. They employ Lobbyists and have Government Affairs departments. Does that sound like a "farm" to you?

Therein lies the problem. You have been led to believe that these international companies are "farms". They are assisted in this farce by our Government and its Department of Agriculture. They help craft and pass something called a "Farm Bill" that is wholly designed in their best interests and from which they obtain unnecessary taxpayer funded subsidies. 

Go to Smithfield's hog production website (Murphy-Brown; http://murphybrownllc.com/about/AUDIO/index.html) and look at their "farms". Do they look like farms or factories? Do you see any "farmers" outside on a farm, with sweat on his or her brow, crap on their boots, working in the sun, rain or snow, or the numerous cuts, scrapes and scars on their hands that are normally associated with "farming"? If you were flying over them at a relatively low altitude would you think they looked like farms or would you assume they were factories? 

Stop calling them "farmers"; they aren't anything of the type. Support Big Ag if you must but don't try to sell the BS that they are farmers. If you really want to help farmers then give some advice that actually helps a family stay on their small farm. The type of farmer that gets up at or before sunrise, waters and feeds their livestock, probably has to then go to work in town, gets home in the evening and then spends several hours fixing fences, helping to farrow piglets (without the assistance of factory restraint devices), treating injuries, and, when they can, mowing their lawns, fixing the car and, perhaps, spending a few minutes with their families before going to bed bone tired, only to get up in a few hours and do it all over again. And without getting weekends and holidays off, overtime pay or a health care plan.

The kind of real farmers that have to sell their products at very low margins or at a loss all because the pork factories have driven the price for pork down. And don't criticize the few farmers that are trying hard to develop real markets that others can use to try and actually make some profit for their work.

BTW, to feed the "US consumer" 40% of the food that is produced is thrown away. Why? Because it's cheap. And the "US consumer" is more overweight than ever before...


ADDED: Show the following two photos to any typical person on the street. The first one is where I keep my sows. The second is where Murphy-Brown keeps their sows. Then ask them which one looks like a "farm".


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

HeritagePigs said:


> "However, I will not stand idly by while people tell mistruths or outright lies about the American Farmers that produce wholesome, affordable food for the US consumer."
> 
> Good! I want you to support the American Farmers. But if you think that Smithfield and similar Corporations are "Farmers" then you've drunk too much of their KoolAid.


Who said anything about Smithfield? I certainly was not referring to them in my messges.



> Stop calling them "farmers"; they aren't anything of the type. Support Big Ag if you must but don't try to sell the BS that they are farmers. If you really want to help farmers then give some advice that actually helps a family stay on their small farm. The type of farmer that gets up at or before sunrise, waters and feeds their livestock, probably has to then go to work in town, gets home in the evening and then spends several hours fixing fences, helping to farrow piglets (without the assistance of factory restraint devices), treating injuries, and, when they can, mowing their lawns, fixing the car and, perhaps, spending a few minutes with their families before going to bed bone tired, only to get up in a few hours and do it all over again. And without getting weekends and holidays off, overtime pay or a health care plan.
> 
> The kind of real farmers that have to sell their products at very low margins or at a loss all because the pork factories have driven the price for pork down. And don't criticize the few farmers that are trying hard to develop real markets that others can use to try and actually make some profit for their work.


I'm sorry, but my definition of a 'Farmer' is much more inclusive than yours. I don't abide by the subsistence mentality when it comes to farmers. What is wrong with a farmer being successful and profitable. While I love farming, I am in it as a business. If it doesn't make money I am wasting my time.

By the way, there is something to be said for working smarter, not harder.

Jim


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

HeritagePigs said:


> ADDED: Show the following two photos to any typical person on the street. The first one is where I keep my sows. The second is where Murphy-Brown keeps their sows. Then ask them which one looks like a "farm".


Brian, 

Don't stoop to the same tactics used by PETA, HSUS, and the other Animal Rights Organizations.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Not using "tactics", just common sense.The first photo is my farm. The second photo is from their website. Nothing has been exaggerated.

They call their sow facility their "sow farm". Pure BS.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

HeritagePigs said:


> Not using "tactics", just common sense.The first photo is my farm. The second photo is from their website. Nothing has been exaggerated.
> 
> They call their sow facility their "sow farm". Pure BS.


I did not get the memo that made you the Farm God.

I have an alternative interpretation that some might have of your photos.

The first photo has no shelter, there appears to be no source of water, and there also appears to be no protection from predators.

The animals in the secon photo are in a temperature controlled room, there appears to be food and water, the farmer is also present taking care of the animals.

Jim


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

As just a regular consumer, I have to say the argument is pretty much moot. There are all different kinds of consumers and whether it is Tom's Gourmet Pork Chops at $20 a lb., or Joe's Walmart chops at $2 a pound, or anything in between is nothing more than filling a need. 

Personally, I'm a $2 a pound Walmart consumer. It isn't that I don't know or care that Tom's Gourmet Pork Chops is definitely a better product, or even wish I did have some of Tom's chops -- it's a matter of I _can't_ afford Tom's chops no matter how meticulously and healthfully raised they are. So therefore, it's off to Walmart for the more inferior chops or else don't have chops at all.

If a person can afford prime chops, then why shouldn't a farmer get as much as he can for them. If on the other hand, if a person can't afford that, then why make each other feel inferior. Everyone wants the best, but not everyone can afford the best. Those that are in between or on the lower end are filling their niche and their efforts (whether homegrown or commercial) are just as valuable to that consumer who's needs they meet.

You see, it isn't my-dog's-bigger-than-your-dog, it's that it's all equal in the eyes of the consumer whose niche is being met. But in all honesty, I do get a little resentful when being made to feel like I'm less valuable, or I'm a Walmart hick for purchasing a less inferior product - the only one I can afford. It would be wonderful to have a choice; it's just not possible for many (or dare I say most).

If you're comparing the farming practices of commercial (Smithfield for example), with homegrown organic pork, then it's like comparing apples to watermelon! Each has their place, reasons, and it doesn't make one better than another.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

karen said:


> each has their place, reasons, and it doesn't make one better than another.


bingo!!!!!


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## HardBall (Dec 23, 2010)

Karen said:


> As just a regular consumer, I have to say the argument is pretty much moot. There are all different kinds of consumers and whether it is Tom's Gourmet Pork Chops at $20 a lb., or Joe's Walmart chops at $2 a pound, or anything in between is nothing more than filling a need.
> 
> Personally, I'm a $2 a pound Walmart consumer. It isn't that I don't know or care that Tom's Gourmet Pork Chops is definitely a better product, or even wish I did have some of Tom's chops -- it's a matter of I _can't_ afford Tom's chops no matter how meticulously and healthfully raised they are. So therefore, it's off to Walmart for the more inferior chops or else don't have chops at all.
> 
> ...


The mass public is just like you. The only folks that buy the grass fed pork and other koolaid are ones that do not understand the pork industry as a whole and would rather put it down as stand up for it and realize they are just a minute part of a bigger picture. I am a member of the National Pork Producers Association and National Pork Board. I sit on committes with folks who have 150,000 sows and some who have 10 sows. 

Many would be surprised to learn that a Smithfield pig is most likely better taken care of and disease free than the "sweat and brow" one raised by some guy wanting to sell them for $20/lb. We all fill a need but calling products "healthier" or putting down a huge corporation who built an entire industry is by all means inappropriate. I want someone to show me science behind your statements, because I guarantee I have just as much to contradict your findings.


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## HardBall (Dec 23, 2010)

*A CAFO is not a farm and the people that own it and work there are not farmers. It is a pork factory. It is a production facility where items are manufactured under controlled conditions and according to well defined production plans. Each facility has or is managed by a Plant Manager, Production Manager, Facilities Manager, Environmental Health and Safety Manager, Purchasing Manager, Logistics Manager, Human Resources Manager... They are directed by a Board of Directors, CEO, CFO and slew of Directors at the demands of their Shareholders. They employ Lobbyists and have Government Affairs departments. Does that sound like a "farm" to you?
*Actually a CAFO regulation is set by a county or state. Where i live 2 milking dairy cows need a CAFO permit. So your definition is absolutely false. In addition I know several family owned farms that own 75k+ sows.

*Therein lies the problem. You have been led to believe that these international companies are "farms". They are assisted in this farce by our Government and its Department of Agriculture. They help craft and pass something called a "Farm Bill" that is wholly designed in their best interests and from which they obtain unnecessary taxpayer funded subsidies. 
*You have obviously not read a farm bill. There are maximum revenue caps in it to avoid large corporations from receiving breaks. The farm bill is designed to assist GROWERS of commodities other than pork. American pork producers have NEVER received any subsidies; the only commodity that can say that.

*Go to Smithfield's hog production website (Murphy-Brown; http://murphybrownllc.com/about/AUDIO/index.html) and look at their "farms". Do they look like farms or factories? Do you see any "farmers" outside on a farm, with sweat on his or her brow, crap on their boots, working in the sun, rain or snow, or the numerous cuts, scrapes and scars on their hands that are normally associated with "farming"? If you were flying over them at a relatively low altitude would you think they looked like farms or would you assume they were factories? 
*So... let me get this straight... because these family farms have become more efficient, more safe, and less labor intensive makes them a factory? Hmmm... then arent we all wanting to be come a factory? I for sure try to make my systems less labor intensive. I think your definition of "farmer is squed.

*Stop calling them "farmers"; they aren't anything of the type. Support Big Ag if you must but don't try to sell the BS that they are farmers. If you really want to help farmers then give some advice that actually helps a family stay on their small farm. The type of farmer that gets up at or before sunrise, waters and feeds their livestock, probably has to then go to work in town, gets home in the evening and then spends several hours fixing fences, helping to farrow piglets (without the assistance of factory restraint devices), treating injuries, and, when they can, mowing their lawns, fixing the car and, perhaps, spending a few minutes with their families before going to bed bone tired, only to get up in a few hours and do it all over again. And without getting weekends and holidays off, overtime pay or a health care plan.
*This comment is so idiotic it requires no response... You must just want someone to call you a farmer? lol

*The kind of real farmers that have to sell their products at very low margins or at a loss all because the pork factories have driven the price for pork down. And don't criticize the few farmers that are trying hard to develop real markets that others can use to try and actually make some profit for their work.
*Funny you mention this since the national pork price is the highest it has ever been... You really do not do your research before spewing do you?

*ADDED: Show the following two photos to any typical person on the street. The first one is where I keep my sows. The second is where Murphy-Brown keeps their sows. Then ask them which one looks like a "farm".
*A few years ago Smithfield foods began converting all of their gestation stall operations into gestation pens; they have over 1 million sows... It takes a lot of time not to mention capital to get that feat accomplished. BTW, can you tell the group how far domesticated hogs will travel if put in lets say a 10 acre pasture if their water, food and shelter are within a say a 100 square foot area?

Sorry for being so condecending, but i hate when people bash something they know nothing about, just to make themselves sleep better at night.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

This is a circular argument that is going nowhere. We are debating things that will not help anyone with their small farm. Which I thought was the purpose of this forum.

For those folks on the sidelines who may actually be looking for help turning their small hog herds into something that helps pay the bills, contact Kelley at South Texas Heritage Pork. She and Mark have proven that you can do well in the niche pork market and they are free and honest with their advice. I know; I've been on their farm and know them well.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

sassafras manor said:


> I am just curious what those of you that sell whole or half hogs charge? Do you charge by the hanging weight and how much. How has the elevated price of grain affected your sale price or demand compared to last year? We raise ours on pasture and then finish on grain so while the time is longer the input costs are less. We sold ours last year at $1.00 per pound hanging weight and I felt comfortable at that price last season but I am reworking my numbers for this year.
> Thanks for your responses - Matt


Here are a couple of options for you:

1) Tally all of your expenses + Profit desired then divide by the carcass weight. This requires you to know what you have invested in your pigs.

2) Take the current CME lean hog futures and multiply it. The current CME quote is $101.92/cwt. If you double it you are at $2/lb hanging weight.

3) Talk with local meat markets and determine their price for a Whole Hog and use that.

For the hogs we will sell this summer we are at $1.90/cwt for the pig and the customer pays the butchering fees.

Remember to Tell YOUR Story, Promote Your Product, but don't tell lies about your competition.

Jim


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks for keeping this on track. As I stated earlier, this is around my price range, but I don't sell out. I'll eat it myself if someone thinks that it's too much. I have 2 gilts-- which are due pretty soon to farrow. I'm keeping 3 for myself and taking ($100) deposits for any others. I can't feed one out for $100, but it will be enough of a buffer to allow for a few "party pigs" if people back out. 

As for the original question: I need $350 or $200 a half, plus processing. 
-Blaine


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

HeritagePigs said:


> This is a circular argument that is going nowhere. We are debating things that will not help anyone with their small farm. Which I thought was the purpose of this forum.
> .


There is usable knowledge in every area of swine production. There is no need to limit oneself to information from on small segment.


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## HardBall (Dec 23, 2010)

Allen W said:


> There is usable knowledge in every area of swine production. There is no need to limit oneself to information from on small segment.


Couldn't agree more.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

Beautiful black hogs Brian.

Best,
Gerold.


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## Brady (Jun 23, 2011)

Selling 6 this year for $2 per lb. hanging wt. here. Interesting discussion.


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## Looking4ewes (Apr 30, 2006)

I charge $2.25/lb hanging weight, skin on, head on; customer pays processing. I am a very small producer who keeps hogs on pasture, woodlot, and they are milk-fed as well. Delicious! I could probably charge more, but I want to grow it up slowly, as I gain more experience. My hogs are presold with a $100 deposit. I collect this before I even purchase the piglets.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

highlands said:


> I do it every week of the year and have been doing it for years. We have a regular weekly delivery route and standing orders from stores & restaurants within a one hour circle of our farm. We have 40 breeding sows and are gradually edging our way up to a goal of about 60 sows. This is what we do. No hype. No magic beans. No seminars. No production system sales. No books. We sell pork.
> 
> I know of quite a few other local farmers who are also doing it and I know of many more nationally who are doing it. Go to our literature page on our web site to learn more.
> 
> ...


Hi Walter.
Have you looked at TruLine Genetics. Its a family operation here in Missouri. They raise their own feed and have antibiotic free pigs. They sell process pork 5-7 bucks a pound and have a nice market for breeding stock also. The owner started sometime in the mid 50's.


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## HardBall (Dec 23, 2010)

gerold said:


> Hi Walter.
> Have you looked at TruLine Genetics. Its a family operation here in Missouri. They raise their own feed and have antibiotic free pigs. They sell process pork 5-7 bucks a pound and have a nice market for breeding stock also. The owner started sometime in the mid 50's.


Everett has some GREAT genetics. One of the local breeders out here purchased some and I got a sow off that pedegree line, she is fantastic. If your looking for some breeding stock he can get you set up right!


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

HardBall said:


> Everett has some GREAT genetics. One of the local breeders out here purchased some and I got a sow off that pedegree line, she is fantastic. If your looking for some breeding stock he can get you set up right!


Everett is a nice fellow and has great stock. That's where i got my breeding stock.


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## Native87 (Jan 21, 2010)

---- it!!! THIS is where the gravel hits the road. Am i doing something wrong??? I raise my pigs and hogs on pasture and woodlot (supplemented with feed store food). I have asked several times on this forum about what I SHOULD do. Yes, I love natural raised hogs, I LOVE HUMANE. But you know , I have NEVER gotten a straight answer. I AM one of those small time farmers. I raise my pigs natural. So, WHATS up people????? I dont have a "niche", what I have is people wanting to raise their own food. Let the "niche" do their thing and let the ones of US that raise Hamp/York.............. Hamp/Berk do OURS THAT some think is a SUB quality pork animal. 
IT IS ALL ABOUT THE RAISING.


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

I agree totally Native87. Most of these "heritage pigs" are super hogs who are capable of throwing all breeding stock in every litter. There isn't a national show for most, so the only standard is the breeders marketing ability. Herefords and Tamworths do have shows so they are excluded. But somehow these other pigs are capable of throwing all breeder quality stock and to break even you have to sell at $300/half to break even. 

Someone came with a good recipe for catfish bait: Start with a little angus, then add a little pigeon and earthworm, and finish it off with some emu. I can't believe it catches anything; but it seems to be working. I'll keep selling the little I can at a reasonable price and eat the rest. I'm good for 3 market pigs and at least that many roasters a year. Good luck with your venture.


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## bruceki (Nov 16, 2009)

That's one measure of how serious someone is about their pigs -- what percentage of their pigs they sell as breeders. 

I'd expect someone who looks carefully at their pigs and sells 1 to 5% of them as breeding stock is doing what I'd expect, and improving the breed. 

Blaines' got it right -- not everything that comes out of the back of a sow is worth breeding. 

Native87: My herd is primarily berk/hamp cross -- I think that they make great pigs. I run a berk boar on hamp sows. Great combination -- big litters and great taste. 

Bruce / ebeyfarm.blogspot.com


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

Native, I can't figure out what your question is. Makes it hard to give an answer.


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

There seems to be a bunch of folks here looking for a fight, where I don't think a fight should be. But I'll take them up anyway.

I sell pigs and pork. You're welcome to come meet them, see how they live and what they eat.

I have Tamworths -- Indiana and coastal/British genetics. They're both fine pigs, but the difference is clear.

If you buy pork from me, you will pay the same price you would pay at the gourmet butcher down in the city. I think my meat is that good, so far I haven't had a problem finding customers who agree. The people who criticize me, oddly enough, seem mostly to be the loudest Tea Party conservatives in the room. What happened to free market capitalism folks?

If you buy a weaner pig from me, you will also pay top dollar. Why yes, you can get a CAFO cull trucked in from 400 miles away for one third as much. When you look at your freezer in the fall, was the extra $100 to me well spent? So far my customers say yes.

If you decide you like the pig you bought from me enough to breed it, no problem. I sold you a pig fair and square. If you want the registration, pay me for the paperwork. If you want a breeding age boar, I have them. (I don't castrate) I don't claim magic genetics. Come scratch some snouts, and decide if one of them is worth as much to you as it would be to me in the freezer. If what I can get for retail pastured pork is more than you think my boar is worth, that is your problem, not mine. I didn't claim prime breeding stock, I said breeding age boar.


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

I agree with you all the way Frank. A breeding age boar IS worth your high end market price. I have a problem with $400 feeders still dripping milk. I seems to me like a pyramid. I'm glad you found a high end market for your feeders. Most people won't and the only way they can recoup their price is to sell them all as super pigs. The only buyer is someone who thinks they can get rich off raising these super pigs which bring $400 a piece. It seems like a cycle that will eventually run it's course. 

I have Tams as well. Around here they sell around $2/lb feeder price. It still is a little pricey but people can afford them. Good show hogs sell for more, but the nice Tams are within this range. They do great for me. Take a little longer to get to weight but definitely worth the wait for me. 

I wasn't trying to start a fight, just pointing out how a side of pork depends on things like the original purchase price.


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

Lazy J said:


> Fortunately we have new nono antibiotic products that can give a similar, but less consistent, response in pigs and chickens.
> 
> Jim


Honest question here. What is a nono antibiotic product? If you meant "non" please give me a link


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

Lazy J said:


> So how about quitting now? I still claim that my pork is yummier than yours, but the MRSA that y'all cultivate actually kills people. When the American Medical Association (yeah, the doctors) and the Centers for Disease Control stand up and say you are killing people, isn't it time to quit now?


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## Forlane (Jul 17, 2010)

Lazy J said:


> I did not get the memo that made you the Farm God.
> 
> I have an alternative interpretation that some might have of your photos.
> 
> ...


The bold and enlarged part slapped me in the face. I am not a farmer I live in a city in the middle of California. I was unaware of the rampant Lion/Tiger problems in the US. Besides maybe a wolf, I know of no predator that will attack a group of pigs. Maybe I am a dumb city boy but I can't imagine the need of protecting a pack of pigs from anything other than Humans.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

FrankRichards said:


> Honest question here. What is a nono antibiotic product? If you meant "non" please give me a link


I won't provide links, you can do a google search for yourself. Look up things like Organic Acids, Probiotics, Essential Oils, Botanical Extracts.

I use a combination of the above mentioned products in both commercial and all-natural producers with successes, but without the consistent reponse we see with antibiotics.

In pigs we typically see as statistically significant (P > .05) response in 80 to 90% of trials with the use of antibiotics. However when we evaluated non-antibiotics the positive response is only found in 30 to 50 % of experiments.

Jim


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Forlane said:


> The bold and enlarged part slapped me in the face. I am not a farmer I live in a city in the middle of California. I was unaware of the rampant Lion/Tiger problems in the US. Besides maybe a wolf, I know of no predator that will attack a group of pigs. Maybe I am a dumb city boy but I can't imagine the need of protecting a pack of pigs from anything other than Humans.


The Coyote is the main predators livestock producers must deal with in most of the lower 48 States.

The point of my comment was not that we had a predator problem, rather that there can be another interpretation of a photo than what is intended.

I like seeing sows on pasture and the flavor of pigs given access to forages, but the less efficient production and length of time to market won't allow that form of production to provide pork for the vast majority of US consumers.

Jim


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

FrankRichards said:


> So how about quitting now? I still claim that my pork is yummier than yours,


No argument there for the most part.

As I have written many times, I am not a proponent of growth promotional levels of feed grade antibiotics. We need to keep them along with water soluble antibiotics to treat diseases in our livestock, though.

As to MRSA, I haven't researched the issue so I can't refute or corroborate your statement.

Jim


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

Lazy J said:


> The point of my comment was not that we had a predator problem, rather that there can be another interpretation of a photo than what is intended.
> 
> I like seeing sows on pasture and the flavor of pigs given access to forages, but the less efficient production and length of time to market won't allow that form of production to provide pork for the vast majority of US consumers.
> 
> Jim


Dude, anyone who took your alternate viewpoint of the first picture would be crazier than a PETA member. I've seen at least a thousand pictures of animals on pasture in my life. I'd say that 20% of them showed water and shelter, with a majority showing neither.

The predator protection point is a joke. A herd of pigs that big would regard a pack of original Texas model coyotes as a protein source. It would take a real wolfpack or a mountain lion to go after them. I'd bet that no more than 30% of the lower 48 has either

My pigs have been attacked exactly once, by a pack of red wolves that Fish and Game calls "coyotes". I lost 6 piglets and a tail. (I wasn't home, my wife had 2 40 lb herding dogs and doesn't shoot.) Fish and Game counted 7 dead "coyotes" the next morning. Even that pack left my Percheron team alone.They haven't been back.

I don't know how much is my three new Great Pyrenees dogs and how much is the bad guys knowing they lost and not being dumb enough to try again. I do know I haven't had a bear rip my chicken coop door off its hinges since I got them.

But again, 10% chance of a big white dog in any given pasture shot. They spend hot summer days in the shade somewhere.

OTOH, there's no question that the sows in those cages can't turn around.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

FrankRichards said:


> Dude, anyone who took your alternate viewpoint of the first picture would be crazier than a PETA member. I've seen at least a thousand pictures of animals on pasture in my life. I'd say that 20% of them showed water and shelter, with a majority showing neither.
> 
> The predator protection point is a joke. A herd of pigs that big would regard a pack of original Texas model coyotes as a protein source. It would take a real wolfpack or a mountain lion to go after them. I'd bet that no more than 30% of the lower 48 has either
> 
> ...


DUDE, I did not say there was a predator problem, just proposing an alternate intrepretation to that given. Remember that the typical consumer has absolutely NO idea about livestock let alone pasturing so I would venture that a vast majority of the AVERAGE consumer would in fact view the photo with the pigs in a temperature controlled building to be better off than those in the pasture.

I suggest those of you in the Pasture Good, Everything Else Bad camp take a trip to McClean County, Illinois and ask producer why they abandoned pasture farrowings in the 60's, 70's, and 80's. I'm sure the answers would enlighten. By the way, McClean County used to have the largest concentration of pasture farrowed sows in the USA.

You obviously have your agenda which seems to be one that doesn't includes those that don't fit your mold. That's fine, just stop trying to force your interpretation of what livestock production and what a farmer is on the rest of us that disagree.

Jim


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

And this still brings us around to the side of pork question. It is all in the marketing and how well you can sell your product. Mainly, how much effort you want to spend. You can sell at auction price and let the market do your advertising for you. Or, you can do it yourself and make a little more. There are the registries and other groups available to help with the notarization of your farm, but you still have to do a lot for yourself to actually make a profit. 

This shouldn't be a Homestead/Big farm debate, but more of how much you are really willing to put into your situation.


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## Countrygent51 (Jul 30, 2011)

There is definitely more tension out there on this issue than I realized. I visited the Ohio State Fair last week, in large part to take in the hog show. The Ohio Pork Producers had a special air conditioned room in the building (much appreciated in the unbearable humidity) with a very pretty York cross sow and her dozen healthy little piglets. Cute and a crowd pleaser. Beside her was a full time employee explaining the virtues of: indoor housing, feeding mostly grain, lots of medicine. A small model barn with toy plastic pigs helped illustrate the roomy, luxurious digs available to commercial hogs. Sort of the "this is the opposite of what you heard about pasture pork" side of the coin.


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

Lazy J said:


> You obviously have your agenda which seems to be one that doesn't includes those that don't fit your mold. That's fine, just stop trying to force your interpretation of what livestock production and what a farmer is on the rest of us that disagree.
> 
> Jim


You're right. I have an agenda, and so do you. There are three or four specific features of industrial livestock production that I think are one or more of: Public Health risks, externalization of costs onto the general public and taxpayer subsidies specifically to the big guys.

I cheerfully admit that correcting those abuses would raise Smithfield's cost, thus enhancing my competitive position. Which does not mean that they are not abuses which should be corrected.


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