# Do I need a LGD? and other questions...



## CornerstoneAcre (Mar 10, 2011)

After reading another post which had a link to another site with many questions to ask yourself before running out and getting a LGD. I've answered most of them "correctly" (yes I have tons of dog experience, I've done research, I have the finances to care for them, we have shelter, etc)but some I'm not sure what the answer is. 
for example: do I really need a LGD? 
Here's our situation: I have a TOTAL of 2 acres, 1 of which is fenced and cross fenced. We are surrounded by 80 acres of cropland on two sides, a few homes and hayfields on one side and two homes and trees on the fourth side. The permanent goat pen is about 1/3 acre with a horse pasture being another 1/3 acre and another 1/3 acre being a rotational grazing area for both the horses and goats. We DO have coyotes that have been as close as 50 feet from the goats (WHILE I was out milking). I frequently have kids (baby goats, not humans)running around. We also have chickens which used to be free range until something wiped out out about 1/2 dozen in the corn field (no bodies found). We also have a neighborhood "pack" that belongs to the few houses on the one side of us. They HAVE been in our yard numerous times Luckily I am home full-time (except a few trips to the store each month) Our fencing consists of cattle panels on about 1/2 and field fencing (6" squares I'm guessing, similar to the cattle panels) supported by board fencing on the other half. I have two strands of electric fence run on the outside of the entire fence. Currently with 5 wk old kids I do lock everybody up in barns at night. We are new to the area and have only spent one winter here (without any goat kids) so not sure if the predator problem could become an actual issue when "wild" food is not available in quantity. 
I'm guessing it wouldn't "hurt" to have a LGD. I've done research and really like the Great Pyrenees. My grandmother had a love of them so I have some experience with PET GP's. I have always owned a dog and currently own two "house dogs" (a JRT and a BC/German wire hair X)
Also, this is a much bigger question: I have found a pair of Great Pyrenees at age 2 (intact) that I am unsure of their guarding background. Are they worth TRYING? or am I just asking for trouble? They are not typical friendly house dogs. The male acts much like I've seen guarding pyrs act - standoffish, barking but NOT overtly aggressive in his manner (after all I was invited into the yard by his owner so I would consider this appropriate behavior). There is a male and a female (I do plan on getting any LGD I have fixed - don't need that issue). 
Any suggestions? Although I really like this pair I'm trying to use good sense here and NOT just rush into getting these two just because they are a "good deal". I have been researching this for the last three months now so I'm not going in totally blind to the whole LGD thing. I can seperate the dogs from direct contact with the goats for a while (but certainly prefer not to permannetly as this defeats the purpose) and as I said I am home all day so have the time to do any work that may be necessary. 
I'm sorry this got so long, but thought I would see what some of you much more experienced people may have to say.... (I thnk I know what the answer should be to the last question, just hoping somebody will tell me I'm wrong :shrug I do hav a line on some pups that I can get in the spring (from one of the breeders I got some goats from).
Thanks fellow HTers for your help!!


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I'm gonna let others reply to this. I am sure they can help you better then I can with an older LGD, especially with what they were guarding now versus backgrounds and such


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

If the adult dogs you found were of a LGD breed that has been kept more "true to his roots", I would say give them a try. but Pyrs have been bred for pet, show and LDG for many years, and have unfortunatly been bred by puppy mills too. Because of that, not all pyrs have working ability. Can you bring the dogs home to see how they do with the livestock? 

I'll let the experts answer the "do I need them" question, but my opinion is that you may. You are surrounded by large wooded areas and have seen coyotes close, as well as roaming packs of dogs. Kind of the same situation I am in, except that I do have quite a bit more land. You could probably get by without one though, as it sounds like your current methods of protecting the animals are working pretty well.


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

When getting Grown dogs, it is always somewhat a gamble.... but so are pups. And pups take longer to become functional. 

Pyrenees would probably be the best breed for you. Just contain the dogs except when you are out there for supervised escorts through the livestock.. Get an idea of their level of acceptance and comfort with all the different types of stock. If they do not respond well, give them time. Releasing them to early, and allowing them to develope a BAD habbit would be the biggest mistake. 
Chickens will be the biggest test. Just to fun to chase.

But do not give up. Many fine LGDs have a rocky start.


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## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

if they don't work out then what?

they will but it takes a lot of work! not everyone has the time, energy but lack mostly patience and consistancy.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

I agree with westbrook. Your property is so small, you should be able to hear anything that is going on outside. This is just my opinion, but I don't think you need LGD's I, I think rather, you need to dogproof your fencing all around so the neighborhood pack stays outside and your stock is safe. And taking on two adults with no prior LGD experience is probably risky at best. Yes, what if they DON'T work out? Then what? Re-fencing or bolstering what you already have would be best....


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I agree with Goatress. I'd get a nice, well bred Dobermann. When trained, they are very well trained, and being an urban breed they don't have the roaming instinct of a Great Pyr.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

Maura said:


> I agree with Goatress. I'd get a nice, well bred Dobermann. When trained, they are very well trained, and being an urban breed they don't have the roaming instinct of a Great Pyr.


Dobermans are not LGD, they cannot be trusted with the stock 24/7. 
I trust my Golden 100% around my goats and chickens but I would not try to use him as an LGD. 
My daughter's tiny dog has shown that chicken chasing is fun, till an LGD squashed her flat for it. My Golden ignored what she was doing and did not participate but he did not correct her. I doubt a Doberman would protect the livestock either, they farm in general if trained. 

Cornerstone you do not have enough acreage to support two LGD. Aside from the wandering, there is the barking Pyrs like to do, which on 2 acres would you not get relief from, lol. 
Are those two handable dogs? If not that causes issues when it comes time for shots, altering, grooming and etc. Not saying they have to be pets but they have to obey you if you try to brush them or take them to the vet etc without freaking out and running away or trying to bite you. Also if they escape and are not people trusting, you would have a heck of a time getting them back. 

I have Anatolian/Pyr mixes, less barking, less wandering. They are both neutered so they do not take off for a female dog or coyote in heat. One looks very Pyr and people think he is a big fluffy snuggly dog. The other looks Anatolian and some people are scared to get out of their cars  works for me especially when they are rude and bring their univited dogs here. 

Personally I would pass on them and look for one that is younger and probably not a full Pyr, one mixed with another LGD breed. Not mixed with Aussie, or Border Collie or whatever else they have running unaltered on their farm, mixed with another actual breed of LGD.


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## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

I think everyone with livestock needs a LGD! but.... if you have a dog... and for me it doesn't matter if you have a poodle or a LGD... you need proper fencing!

I have fenced and hot wired, I can keep out coyotes with my 6' fencing and hot wire inside to keep my dogs in. I have fencing laying on the ground on both sides so no dog can dig in or out.

_|_ dirt thrown over the edges so the dogs can't find it. Once they do they will just dig under the fencing. Dogs, coyotes or wolves usually go to the fence and start digging.. and they usually go 18" down and quit but will go 24" before quitting. 

What I can't stop is mountain lions, bears... they just go through!, raccoons, snakes, weasels and so on...and I can't stop two legged predators either!
Can't be home all of the time!

Since you have coyotes coming within 50 of you... it it were me... I would have a LGD! if I lived in the city I would have one! 

A pair at 2 years old.... you said you have had experience with pet GP's... if there are no children around..... perhaps. Without knowing anything about them, no one can really advise you.

Go spend time with the dogs. See if you can handle them ...both! at the same time. I do not want to discourage you in any way. I would like for you to take into consideration... what happens to the dogs if they don't work out? They can be wonderful house dogs! they will give you kisses, sit, lay, really good at laying! LOL! don't like to 'come' much..but will for the right treat.

Perhaps taking on a puppy and starting from scratch might be better.

Two acres is more then enough! heck a 1/4 acre if you are loosing chickens!!! most likely to weasels or raccoons.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I think the OP is asking a very intelligent question. Not all livestock operations need a LGD, there are real disadvantages and real costs to consider when making the decision. Is losing $40 in chickens worth the annual upkeep for a LGD that may not solve the problem and even make it worse? Preditor proofing 2 acres over whats already there would likely be cheaper. Trapping and shooting preditors is a viable solution to most predation problems. It just takes effort and puts those unaccustomed to the sharp end of the stick, in charge of the problem. Where it belongs in many cases! JMO


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## jordan (Nov 29, 2006)

After reading the responses to your post, I have to believe that some of the people were busy typing before really reading your post... :typomat:

Since you property is surrounded by quite a bit of farmland and wooded acreage (which often has lots of predators on it  ), you have already sighted coyote and packs of dogs, you have suffered losses, you already have good fencing (cattle panels hold my Spanish Mastiffs in quite well!) and you have experience with dogs, I would say that yes, you probably could use at least one LGD. 

Whether or not it is one or both of these dogs, nobody here can say without spending time with them to see if their instincts are good. It's a good sign that the male was showing some guarding behavior when you were there and you are familiar enough with the breed to recognize it, but is there someone near you that has working LGD experience who would be willing to go and evaluate them? You might want to contact one of the working LGD yahoo groups to see if there is someone in your state who can help you out with that.

Because you do have a smaller farm, you might find that an LGD that is able to cover the entire property, as opposed to living full time with the goats or horses is more than sufficient for your needs (but I would still go with an LGD for this purpose too). More then 90% of an LGD's job is as a deterrent, and you also have to consider your neighbors and how they will react to the barking that goes hand in hand with LGD's. I will tell you that if I had lost livestock to predators, my neighbors feelings would be the least of my concerns :lookout:
Since you already said that you could pen them seperately for a time, you might find that if you do choose to try to work with these dogs, that they may work best for you as a general 'property guard' that is able to dual purpose and still keep your livestock safe.
Good luck!
Lois


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Ross said:


> I think the OP is asking a very intelligent question. Not all livestock operations need a LGD, there are real disadvantages and real costs to consider when making the decision. Is losing $40 in chickens worth the annual upkeep for a LGD that may not solve the problem and even make it worse? Preditor proofing 2 acres over whats already there would likely be cheaper. Trapping and shooting preditors is a viable solution to most predation problems. It just takes effort and puts those unaccustomed to the sharp end of the stick, in charge of the problem. Where it belongs in many cases! JMO


Well Ross we don't always agree but this time you and I are on the same page...maybe putting the chickens up in a critter-proof enclosure (still big enough where they can free range) is another idea, too. Pros and cons.....LGD's are not always the answer for everyone...they'll need to weigh them both and see what is the best for their own situation.


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## CornerstoneAcre (Mar 10, 2011)

Well, I thank everyone for your input. We are NOT going with the older Pyrs. We have however decided that we will get ONE Pyr puppy down the road. One of the breeders we got some of our goats from will be breeding her Pyrs again for early spring pups. Her last litter is doing well as guardians (born and raised with them as well they should be) and she is close enough and willing to help me out if I need it. I am still going to do just a bit more research before he/she arrives and all your input is, as always here on HT, very helpful. Thank you.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

The Great Pyrenees' reputation takes a lot of beating these days it seems to me. All the talk about how much they bark and their inclination to roam aside, there is a reason why they are the most popular LGD in America. A good Pyrenees out of a working line of Pyrs is a darn good LGD. My first LGD's were Pyrs and I still have them and they are fabulous guardians and have thrown great pups. Best of luck to you and of course we'll want to see pics of your new guy when you bring him/her home. I think you made a good decision going with a pup instead of two grown unknowns. Best of luck to you.


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## Faithful (Jul 15, 2011)

I my LDG Angel was the best guardian I have had she was a cross anatolian pyr.and I COULD SEE BOTH IN HER THE WAY SHER WORKED the great pyr. part would bring the goat in the middle og the yard anad the anatolian side wou go to fight and bark.
we have full anatolian shepherds and they bark and let us know if there is anything or anyone in our yard.we have pups and old dog for sale
www.livestockguardianangels.com
501-847-8488
Arkansas


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