# Canola oil is poison?



## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

I have seen several posts on here regarding canola oil being a poison. I am curious where people are getting their information from. What exactly is in canola oil that is poisonous, and what does this poison cause? I am very confused. Where do people get their information from? Occupy protest camps?

Inquiring minds must know. And as a farmer who grows canola, and who farms land that has raised canola for 40 years, and who has exploding wildlife populations on his land, despite all the critters eating the canola plants, the seeds, the flowers, etc. I have a bit of reason to wonder.

We who farm need to know where this information comes from, so we can offer information from the other side. We want to grow what is in demand. We want to alleviate false concerns. We want to ensure people have healthy choices.

Let me know if you think canola is poisonous, so I can help walk through any concerns. 

I googled "canola poison", and the absolute crap and misunderstanding is rampant. I had no idea people were perpetuating this false information. Some sites stated canola was made using GE breeding. False. Some interchanged canola with rapeseed. False. 

Let me know, share some links...

Thank you,
Dale


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

Well.. first off.. there is no such thing as a 'canola plant".
Canola stands for 'Canadian Oil, Low Acid".

The oil from a straight up rape plant (which is a brassica similar to well..other brassicas) is too bitter and vile for human or animal consumption. So to make it palatable they mixed it with another plant and genetically modified it to alter it's color, taste and viscosity.
Original rape oil was only for use in lamps, it was not food.

And the main reason it is talked about as 'poison' is because big ag companies have made it a mission to really alter the rape blends for optimum growth etc..

In Canada there have been huge stinks because big ag's blowing pollen and spilled seed etc.. have contaminated the few remaining rape farms products.
There is no such thing as organic canola.

It has all been modified to be drought resistant and bug resistant and herbicide resistant etc...

But then again.. what in this brave new world isn't tainted in some way?


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

Interesting thread...

So, what oils are best?
Is corn oil GM?
Soybeans are estrogen rich as well as GM..right?
If true about the GM nature of canola, that is "out"...so what is left?

Olive oil or animalfats...coconut oil? Peanut,tree nut oils,palm nut...?

Low fat diet is good for you but we need some fats in our diets for proper nutrition.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Well.. first off.. there is *no such thing as a 'canola plant*".
> Canola stands for 'Canadian Oil, Low Acid".
> 
> The oil from a straight up rape plant (which is a brassica similar to well..other brassicas) is too bitter and vile for human or animal consumption. So to make it palatable they *mixed it with another plant *and *genetically modified *it to alter it's color, taste and viscosity.


So there *is *a hybrid plant called "canola", and it *wasn't* "genetically modified" in a lab.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canola



> Canola was *developed through conventional plant breeding *from rapeseed, an oilseed plant already used in ancient civilization as a fuel.
> 
> The word &#8220;rape&#8221; in rapeseed comes from the Latin word &#8220;rapum,&#8221; meaning turnip. Turnip, rutabaga, cabbage, Brussels sprouts, mustard, and many other vegetables are related to the two natural *canola varieties *commonly grown, which are cultivars of Brassica napus and Brassica rapa.
> 
> The change in name serves to distinguish it from natural rapeseed oil, which has much higher erucic acid content.


I figured it would be a "big ag"/ Monsanto bash deal when I read the title

http://www.snopes.com/medical/toxins/canola.asp

This lie had been floating around for 10 years already


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

This is interesting,as I only tryed canola and soy oil once.)localy grown and processed) One of the two tasted bad. So I'm back to useing only olive and peanut oil.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

BFF.. if you are going to quote Wikipedia, then you can't pick and choose the parts.

_A variety developed in 1998 is considered to be the most disease- and drought-resistant Canola variety of rapeseed to date. This and other recent varieties have been produced by using genetic engineering. Currently, 82% of the rapeseed crops planted in Alberta, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan are GM (genetically modified) herbicide-tolerant canola varieties.[16]

A genetically engineered rapeseed that is tolerant to herbicide was first introduced to Canada in 1995. Today 80% of the acres sown are genetically modified canola_


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

One doctor in particular, Dr. Esselstyn says olive oil is the worst for you because of the high level of saturated fats ... 14 to 17 grams per serving. He is a cardiologist and advises staying away from oils, particulary olive oil.

I use canola oil for my salad dressing as it is lower in fat that the other oils, and doesn't impart a weird taste to anything. I eat canola oil every day. I too, am confused about canola oil and would like to know one way or another if canola is poisonous or has bad side effects over time for the body.. 

Does the rapeseed plant have several varieties ??? Does one produce an non-edible oil and the other an edible kind???

I know there are fruits that we eat that belong to the nightshade family. Bittersweet night shade would kill you, but tomato's and potatoes, in the same family are OK to eat.

Ohio Rusty ><>

There is no sound more lonely than a cold and quiet anvil .......


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

I think most people don't understand what genetic modification means. They seem to be under the impression that it means it's been chemically altered.

Everything that people eat now comes from genetically modified foods. The only foods that are not genetically modified are wild foods.

Meat animals and birds, plant foods, even the fabrics that clothes are made from have all been genetically modified over the course of decades and even centuries. If they hadn't been genetically modified they would no longer exist.

Chickenista - whatever chickens it is that you raise now - they are from genetically modified stock. If they weren't modified then they would be the same as any other scrawny wild Red Jungle Fowl from India.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

Oh.. I am not in with the whole poison/modified foods etc.. thing.
It is a pointless endeavor.


And I do agree that domesticated animals have been modified, but that was over thousands of years. The modern day alterations come via gene splicing in the seed etc..
And it is not normal that a plant has been altered so that powerful herbicides don't kill it etc..

However, though i realize that trying to avoid anything genetically modified is totally futile, I do disageree strongly with the tactics used by big ag to promote their products to the demise of naturally occurring seeds, plants and lifestyles in 3rd World countries.
The use of trickery, dishonesty and threats in order to build your own personal (and your stock holders') fortunes does leave a bad smear upon my soul.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> BFF.. if you are going to quote Wikipedia, then you can't pick and choose the parts.
> 
> *A variety* developed in 1998 is considered to be the most disease- and drought-resistant Canola variety of rapeseed to date. This and other recent varieties have been produced by using genetic engineering. Currently, 82% of the rapeseed crops planted in Alberta, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan are GM (genetically modified) herbicide-tolerant canola varieties.[16]


I didn't "pick and choose" anything.

I posted a link *to the source *which shows there ARE* plants* called "canola" and they were NOT all "genetically modified"

Any "genetic engineering" was for herbicide resistance alone, and had nothing to do with the *quality* of the oil

The part you posted confirms there is indeed a "canola" plant, since there can't be a "variety" of something that doesn't exist.

Canadian law even lists the different varieties of the Canola plants, and how they were developed.

http://www.canola-council.org/chapter2.aspx



> Canola is comprised of three species that are modified forms (*using traditional plant breeding methods*) of rapeseed or brown mustard:





> *Canola *Varieties
> Canola varieties grown in Canada belong to the Brassica napus, B. rapa or B. juncea species, which in turn belong to the much larger mustard family. Since B. napus and B. rapa species were first introduced in Canada, plant breeders have developed many varieties.
> The development of these varieties with major improvements in agronomic, oil and meal quality greatly influenced the rapid expansion of the canola industry in Canada, especially during the last decade.
> Improved seed quality increased the market for canola seed and its products. In 2002, B. juncea was introduced under contract production.
> There are considerable differences in agronomic characteristics and yield between species and between varieties. Evaluate these differences carefully when selecting a variety to grow. Choose the variety that is best suited to local conditions.


Canola oil from* any *source is still NOT "poison"


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I hope my organicly grown heirloom garden produce,silky chickens and longhorn beef aren't geneticaly modified. Tho the calfs from the longhorns that are bred with our Angus bull, ya, I guess we did some modifying there.


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

Sorry Paumon...wrong tho it may be when most folks say "geneticly modified"..ie GM..we are refering to gene splicing between species(like adding bacterium genes to plants as pesticides) rather than selective breeding within a specie or hybridization by crossing varieties within the same species. Chickens are jungle fowl selected and bred for naturally occuring traits and thus over generations no longer jungle fowl but silkies, RIR or Leghorns..etc.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

chickenista said:


> Well.. first off.. there is no such thing as a 'canola plant".
> Canola stands for 'Canadian Oil, Low Acid".
> 
> *true*
> ...


As you can see, there are some who actually know about this plant, and some that are spreading patent lies. This is why I am so surprised at the lack of knowledge, spread by people who have little to do with the crop. It would be like me spreading lies about cotton, though I have never seen a cotton plant, will never be able to grow a cotton plant, and have very little clue about the breeding of cotton plants. I could bash cotton based on what is found online. And that is the bottom line. Why trust a canola farmer over patently false websites? Why trust a cotton farmer then? There are two sides to every story, you can find any such stuff on the internet.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

bee said:


> Sorry Paumon...wrong tho it may be when most folks say "geneticly modified"..ie GM..we are refering to gene splicing between species(like adding bacterium genes to plants as pesticides) rather than selective breeding within a specie or hybridization by crossing varieties within the same species. Chickens are jungle fowl selected and bred for naturally occuring traits and thus over generations no longer jungle fowl but silkies, RIR or Leghorns..etc.


You said it better than I did.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

7thswan said:


> I hope my organicly grown heirloom garden produce,silky chickens and longhorn beef aren't geneticaly modified. Tho the calfs from the longhorns that are bred with our Angus bull, ya, I guess we did some modifying there.


Yeppers, anytime we alter mother natures basic genetic engineering... we are modifying. This practice has been going on for centuries and has produced a very wide variety of both plants and animals. I am not sure why some folks get so allfired het up over things they dont understand. :shrug: 

I am more than a little curious myself as to the poisonous nature of canola oil? What specific diseases might it cause and what symptoms should I be on the lookout for?


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Ohio Rusty said:


> One doctor in particular, Dr. Esselstyn says olive oil is the worst for you because of the high level of saturated fats ... 14 to 17 grams per serving. He is a cardiologist and advises staying away from oils, particulary olive oil.
> 
> I use canola oil for my salad dressing as it is lower in fat that the other oils, and doesn't impart a weird taste to anything. I too, am confused about canola oil and would like to know one way or another if canola is poisonous.
> 
> ...


Excellent post, Rusty..


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Lotsa canola grown in those NC foothills, after all.


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Scandinavians use rape seed oil in cooking constantly.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

chickenista said:


> Oh.. I am not in with the whole poison/modified foods etc.. thing.
> It is a pointless endeavor.
> 
> 
> However, though i realize that trying to avoid anything genetically modified is totally futile, I.


Like I said.. I am not on the 'poison train".
Nowhere will you see where I said that canola was a poison.
I just answered the question.
Ya'll act like I am some sort of true believer..

It is futile to try to avoid this carp. It is everywhere.
In the air, in the water, in the soil, in the food, in the drink, in the clothes, in the car seats, in the couch, in the sheets, in the tupperware and freezer bags,
in the paint and in the carpets, in the insulation, in the shower stall and tub...

So we might as well just calm the heck down about it all. It is here to stay.
I can make some slight variations in my purchasing on the things that I do have a choice on, but I understand reality... clearly.


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

chickenista said:


> So we might as well just calm the heck down about it all. It is here to stay.


Wasn't that said about slavery ? 
What about all the whoohah about women voting?
Status quo ueber alles?


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

There is a huge difference between working to change things within a country where changes can be gradually made via the voting system and going against massive, multi-national corporations that buy positions within the legislative bodies of all the countries.

It might happen eventually, but not within my lifetime or yours.

Some countries are making huge leaps. Hungary set fire to all of the GMO fields and Haiti has refused all the seeds offered by big ag etc..
But those are but two small countries and they will eventually fall.. well probably fall.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I just wanna know what oil is good to use and cook with.


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## vicki in NW OH (May 10, 2002)

Fowler said:


> I just wanna know what oil is good to use and cook with.


I use rice bran oil. Excellent for stir fry, etc.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

From a previous post of mine:

Long story short on Canola oil. Summary:
Bioengineered from rapeseed oil, which is toxic to many people because of one component, erucic acid. That component made rapeseed a desired type of specific lubricant. That was supposedly removed in Canola, but I'd be willing to bet money the early varieties being sold only had reduced levels or had some mixed stock of seeds.

Pure unsaturated canola goes rancid faster than you can spit.

The Center for Whining in the Public Interest did a """study""" of movie theatre popcorn which totally BLASTED the use of coconut oil as a bad fat. Theatres bowed to pressure and changed to canola, which invariably smelled like dead fish. *I began to get physically sick when I ate a box of popcorn, even though I had been eating the stuff for decades. Employees were getting sick more often. Customers stopped buying popcorn. It got so bad, that as a DM, I could only spend a small amount of time in some locations if they were popping corn.
*
Many theatre circuits switched back to coconut or peanut oil and saw sales return. Canola was then further "tweaked" to stop the rancid fish oil smell and taste. It then stopped being the same "healthful" unsaturated oil that had been promoted, but more along the lines of cottonseed and other cheap oils.

Canola was specifically engineered as a crop for Canadian farmers. It literally is a contraction of Canada Oil (ola = oil). India does have a variety of rapeseed that is used as a cooking oil. Spain had a big problem with rapeseed back a few years back.

I would use olive oil but I have a personal sensitivity to it. Even with that, I encourage people that olive oil is fine. Coconut oil, we now know, is one of the HEALTHIEST oils and is sold in health food stores. Most of the time, we use grapeseed or peanut oil. *I will not use canola. At all. Ever. *

I know that many people have a vested interest in growing, processing and supporting canola oil. That makes no difference to me. I spent some _very_ miserable time because of that miserable oil, and after that experience, no amount of cajoling or "scientific" studies that I can't watch first hand to verify, are going to make me change my stance. I would rather frolic in a manure pile than be around that stuff.

There are plenty of other suitable oils. http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=383313

Edited to add:
The canola oil debacle is well documented in theatres. I might even still have some of the concession report breakdowns that show just how bad a hit popcorn sales took when the canola craze hit. This is not something that is even debatable.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

vicki in NW OH said:


> I use rice bran oil. Excellent for stir fry, etc.



I can honestly say I've never seen that oil before. I mostly use olive oil.
Is it sold in grocery stores? Have I not paid attention to the different types of oils?


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

that there has been a confusion over canola oil and castor (bean) oil?

_*Castor oil and its derivatives have applications in the manufacturing of soaps, lubricants, hydraulic 
and brake fluids, paints, dyes, coatings, inks, cold resistant plastics, waxes and polishes, nylon, pharmaceuticals and perfumes.

The castor seed contains ricin, a toxic protein. Harvesting castor beans is not without risk. 
Allergenic compounds found on the plant surface can cause permanent nerve damage, making the 
harvest of castor beans a human health risk. India, Brazil, and China are the major crop producers,
and the workers suffer harmful side effects from working with these plants. These health issues, 
in addition to concerns about the toxic byproduct (ricin) from castor oil production, have 
encouraged the quest for alternative sources for hydroxy fatty acids. Alternatively, some 
researchers are trying to genetically modify the castor plant to prevent the synthesis of ricin.*_
*
Use as a means of intimidation in Fascist Italy

In Fascist Italy under the regime of Benito Mussolini, castor oil was one of the tools of the Blackshirts. 
Political dissidents were force-fed large quantities of castor oil by Fascist squads. This technique 
was said to have been originated by Gabriele D'Annunzio. Victims of this treatment did sometimes 
die, as the dehydrating effects of the oil-induced diarrhea often complicated the recovery from the 
nightstick beating they also received along with the castor oil; however even those victims who 
survived had to bear the humiliation of the laxative effects resulting from excessive consumption of the oil.*


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

chickenista said:


> And it is not normal that a plant has been altered so that powerful herbicides don't kill it etc..


Well actually...........Roundup resistant weeds are starting to show up, so yes it is normal. So much so that plants can adapt all by themselves, in relatively few generations.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> So there *is *a hybrid plant called "canola", and it *wasn't* "genetically modified" in a lab.


Correct.



chickenista said:


> A genetically engineered rapeseed that is tolerant to herbicide was first introduced to Canada in 1995. Today 80% of the acres sown are genetically modified canola[/I]


Which means 20% is not gmo.


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

My Mom also used castor oil as a means of intimidation ... only she did it one spoonful at a time. 

Ohio Rusty ><>


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## atobols (Jan 7, 2010)

Anyone have thoughts about sunflower oil?

We have a local farmers' co-op and I noticed gallon jugs of sunflower oil the other day. I keep thinking it's something I should look into but haven't taken the time to do it. I don't use a lot of corn, canola or veg oil but it looks like sunflower oil might be a good local alternative when I'm needing a clean tasting high smoke point oil. Any thoughts?


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## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

Fowler said:


> I just wanna know what oil is good to use and cook with.


I like olive oil for sauteing (sp?). If I am gonna fry up some chicken fried steak, then it's soy oil all the way.

I don't use canola oil because it is crap for frying.

I am not concerned about "poisons" in my oil, just making good food.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Jena said:


> I like olive oil for sauteing (sp?). If I am gonna fry up some chicken fried steak, then it's soy oil all the way.
> 
> I don't use canola oil because it is crap for frying.
> 
> I am not concerned about "poisons" in my oil, just making good food.


And that's me too, being from the south we fry alot of food. But I try to use olive oil as much as possible for other things. But If I was poisioning my family on an unknown oil, I just didnt know :shocked: Because I have used canola oil but didnt like it. I fry with vegetable oil. Thanks for the tip on soy oil, I will try it on my next batch of fried chicken.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Thanks, now that I know it was the Canola that was stinky/bad tasting, I'll try Soy again ,especially for fried Chicken.


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

Peanut oil also works well for frying. The turkey fryers use peanut oil and the deep fried turkey tastes just fine. It should work well with chicken I would think.
Ohio Rusty ><>


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Ohio Rusty said:


> Peanut oil also works well for frying. The turkey fryers use peanut oil and the deep fried turkey tastes just fine. It should work well with chicken I would think.
> Ohio Rusty ><>


We fry our turkey with peanut oil and it tastes great!!! But I havent tried it for fryin chicken. I dont recall seeing soy oil in my local grocery store. Is it only sold in the upper states? Or have I missed it?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Nourishing Traditions has a lot of great information about canola oil.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Ohio Rusty said:


> Peanut oil also works well for frying. The turkey fryers use peanut oil and the deep fried turkey tastes just fine. It should work well with chicken I would think.
> Ohio Rusty ><>


I used to deep fry turkey in peanut oil too,,, but its rather expensive compared to canola. Our Christmas turkey came out perfectly using the same canola oil we used last year.  I did run a batch or two of french fries through the year with it too. That most likely helped preserve its flavor.


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## Home Harvest (Oct 10, 2006)

My grandfather lived to 88 using nothing but lard from non-gene spliced pigs. 

I guess we're more delicate than our forefathers.

I save bacon fat and use that for most of my frying. If I'm making an Italian dish I'll use olive oil, but that's for the flavor, not any health benefits.

My old trusty cast iron fry pans & dutch oven always have a nice coating of bacon fat or lard in them. I'll challenge any of y'all to a fry-off.  Bet mine taste better.


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## Aseries (Feb 24, 2011)

I personally wont say Canola is Poison someone in the Canola industry might sue me lol But far as I'm concerned its garbage. 

People here say they been modifying things for centuries, yeah thats true, but my ancestors modified corn in the field, slowly over time. They didnt put fish genes, vacines and other stuff in foods, just so they will stay bright color at the food store. We know today half the GMO crap isnt properly tested, we know the GMO Soya thats leaching into non GMO soy plants is causing farmers to be sued by Monsanto.

I also notice it is in everything, and because its in everything proves it is garbage. Why because the food industry puts CHEAP into everything they sell thats processes. Why to make money. If they made quality foods and sold them to the public, they might cost alot more. I mean look its sad that pestiside free foods are more expensive, yet I can buy a can of garbage soup with enough sodium to kill you.

The funny part is people say all the stuff isnt bad for you. Then explain to me why people are dying of everything these days. Why there are so many birth defects, so many weird diseases, and allergies. I mean I read a study that GMO corn was tested to cause allergies, but they approved it anyway.

So personally, I dont trust some corporate marketing, if you listen to the corporate marketing they will tell you theres nothing wrong with plastic bags in the environment, they will tell you theres nothing leaching in plastic bottles also, tell that to the scientists who test them.

What do I use, Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Ghee which I make myself out of butter, and Olive oil which I dont fry anything with, and peanut oil for deep frying. 

I also learned one thing, if it has canola in it I dont buy it, why because its probably not good for me anyway with the rest of the garbage in it. So I make things myself, and I've learned I stay healthier in the process.

Just my 2 cents


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Ohio Rusty said:


> Peanut oil also works well for frying. The turkey fryers use peanut oil and the deep fried turkey tastes just fine. It should work well with chicken I would think.
> Ohio Rusty ><>


Peanut oil is what I use now. It is getting harder to find it in bulk,easy to find in a Peanut oil mix.,but I like the pure peanut oil.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Fowler said:


> I just wanna know what oil is good to use and cook with.





vicki in NW OH said:


> I use rice bran oil. Excellent for stir fry, etc.


Yes, what Vicki said. Rice bran oil is the best oil for cooking with, probably the healthiest for all general eating purposes and it has a very high smoking point which is a bonus. It does not go rancid as quickly as many other oils do, it's light and pretty much tasteless except for a barely noticeable hint of sweetness to it. 

It's hard to find in some places though and may have to be ordered in. The rice bran oil I use is called Golden Rice Bran Oil and it's produced in Thailand. The California Rice Oil Company produces an excellent product and seems to be a favourite in America. Their website has some good information about rice oil. http://www.californiariceoil.com/


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

I use sunflower oil for cooking as it can stand high heat. It also is higher in vitamin E than most other oils and has a good percentage of monounsaturated to polyunsaturated oils. I also like peanut oil and it is cheaper than sunflower. I use olive oil in cold dishes and for those that are not cooked on high heat. And I adore coconut oil for many things -- cooking, eating fresh, coco crack, etc. 

So, the healthy oils I use in order of preference are:
coconut
sunflower
peanut
olive


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

I think people are freaking out thinking it is poison because of a terrible misunderstanding about the erucic acid content in rapeseed.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

bee said:


> Interesting thread...
> 
> So, what oils are best?
> Is corn oil GM?
> ...


Actually I would differ on the idea that low fat diets are good for you. But that's a matter of opinion.

Olive oil is good, coconut oil, butter, lard, flax seed oil...... The issue with peanut oil is that some people are allergic.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Peanut oil is nice because of the very high flash point. You can get that real hot without worrying about burning. That is why peanut oil is used when fonduing.
Coconut oil is also better for popping corn as that also has a much higher flash point and will nut scorch as fast either as the heat to pop corn is really high. Good popcorn poppers pop at 475 to 525 degrees.But as far as Canola oil being bad nope that is so far out there, it isn't even laughable anymore.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2011)

bee said:


> Low fat diet is good for you but we need some fats in our diets for proper nutrition.


Stop and think about it- the more low fat and sugar-free foods that have hit the grocery store shelf, the fatter people have become.

A full 30% of your calories needs to come from fat. If you don't get enough fat, you eat more starch. 

The proper amount of fat _IN A BALANCED DIET_ slows the digestion, enables the uptake of more nutrients, and suppresses the appetite.

Of course you need the proper kinds of fats- minimally processed, from both animal and plant sources.



Paumon said:


> I think most people don't understand what genetic modification means. They seem to be under the impression that it means it's been chemically altered.
> 
> Everything that people eat now comes from genetically modified foods. The only foods that are not genetically modified are wild foods.
> 
> ...


Most pro-GMO people don't understand what genetic modification means.

There are two subjects I know more about than any other subjects. One of those is nutrition. The other is poultry genetics.

Jungle fowl were not taken into the laboratory so that their DNA could be shot with gene-guns, nor were they implanted with viruses so that genes from unrelated species could be incorporated into their DNA.

(bear with me...)

Although Darwin missed the mark when he speculated that one species arises from another, he was right in that animals adapt to their environments. This is due to the natural phenomena of genetic drift, which in turn is due to allelic variations (both hidden and visible). 

For example, many different species come in both light and dark color phases. A given population will predominate in one or the other according to whether their environment is darker or lighter. This is simply due to the fact that more of one phase survive predator attacks because they blend into their environment better. Since more of that phase survives, more of them breed, passing their genes onto their offspring. If individuals from that population moves, the other phase may begin to predominate.

Of course there are many other examples involving various characteristics that change according to environment and other factors.

For thousands of years, man has taken advantage of the NATURAL GENES THAT ARE ALREADY THERE to create distinctive breeds. 

It wasn't until the last few decades that genetic engineering came into being, in which UNNATURAL GENES THAT WERE NEVER THERE are inserted into DNA in the laboratory.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

That was my point. I was being literal. Genetic modification and genetic engineering are not the same thing.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2011)

Paumon said:


> That was my point. I was being literal. Genetic modification and genetic engineering are not the same thing.


My post is for anyone and everyone who does not understand the difference.


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## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

Fowler said:


> We fry our turkey with peanut oil and it tastes great!!! But I havent tried it for fryin chicken. I dont recall seeing soy oil in my local grocery store. Is it only sold in the upper states? Or have I missed it?


check your labels. Last time I bought Wesson oil, it was soybean oil.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

IMHO, the more enginered(that includes genetic tampering the un-natural way) and the more processed a product is, the less and less like real food it is and the less healthy and more like junk it is.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

I'm not a rabble rouser on GMO, but...
The whole concept of introduction of a new food into an existing population is fraught with danger. There is pretty good (not perfect, but enough to be interesting) research suggesting that the change for Europeans to a wheat heavy diet created the gluten intolerance issues, and that the focus on cow's milk created the lactose intolerance issues. Many of the early adopters, whether volunteers or forced by hunger, DIED. Those who merely got sick and survived ended up being our ancestors. 

Then there is corn/maize. I like my popcorn and I like my tortilla chips, but corn MAY be a potentiator of allergic reactions. Latex allergies are commonly related to latex gloves powdered with cornstarch as the breakpoint. Are there other issues? I think maybe, but I'm not willing to share or go out on a limb, because it is speculative.

My point is, as usual, we are all different. No one size fits all. There COULD be people that will thrive on canola. I know that I wouldn't. I'm all for personal choice and personal responsibility in understanding the outcomes of various choices. However... when someone wants to stuff something down my throat, I'm like a baby force-fed watercress soaked in alum. I'll spit it out and raise a fuss until proper attention is paid.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Aseries said:


> yet I can buy a can of garbage soup with enough sodium to kill you.


if this were remotely true there would be so many lawsuits. it may not be "good for you," but it certainly isn't going to kill you unless you've already consumed at least 2# of salt.


Aseries said:


> The funny part is people say all the stuff isnt bad for you. Then explain to me why people are dying of everything these days. Why there are so many birth defects, so many weird diseases, and allergies. I mean I read a study that GMO corn was tested to cause allergies, but they approved it anyway


or is it that as a society we've eradicated all the things that would have killed us off before any of the weird stuff had a chance to show up & be wierd? there absolutely is a correlation between allergies & lack of exposure to a wide variety of possible allergens (kids are allergic to plants because they don't go outdoors etc).
not saying it's good for you, because there most definitely is A LOT of crap in the food supply, BUT all of these scientific advancements that increase food yields & decrease spoilage are absolutely the main reason there are 6 billion people in the world. so who do you want to kill off so we can go back to more fragile crops that taste better & spoil more easily?


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassica_napus

Also, aside from the ethical questions relating to GMO crops, do you really want to be eating food that was sprayed with so many herbicides that any normal plants would have died, repeatedly throughout the season?


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

chamoisee said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassica_napus
> 
> Also, aside from the ethical questions relating to GMO crops, do you really want to be eating food that was sprayed with so many herbicides that any normal plants would have died, repeatedly throughout the season?


I grow canola, and I need less herbcides to grow it than ever before. I use less, way less herbicides on my canola, than I do on other crops. And repeatedly through the season? Try once when it is in the coteleydon to three leaf stage. Lets stick with the facts here, not false fears...


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

chamoisee said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassica_napus
> 
> Also, aside from the ethical questions relating to GMO crops, do you really want to be eating food that was sprayed with so many herbicides that any normal plants would have died, repeatedly throughout the season?


Do you wear cotton?


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Ed Norman said:


> Do you wear cotton?


Sometimes I do. Some of it is organic, some is not. My pillow is organic cotton. All of the clothes I wear are pre-worn and pre-washed, usually multiple times, when I get them. 

And at any rate, it isn't like I am eating my clothing, although I would prefer to have organic cotton only and sustainably humanely grown wool, etc.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> IMHO, the more enginered(that includes genetic tampering the un-natural way) and the more processed a product is, the less and less like real food it is and the less healthy and more like junk it is.


Science has proven "organic" is no better than GMO in any way.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Science funded by who, Monsanto?


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Science has proven "organic" is no better than GMO in any way.


"Science" ?????


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Then explain to me why *people are dying *of everything these days


People have been doing that for millions of years.

The only difference now is there are MANY more people, and you HEAR about it more often

You can sit at home and eat nothing but organic rice cakes if you like, but you're still going to die just like everyone else


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Science funded by who, Monsanto?


Science done by anyone who cares to do it.

Most all the studies end up the same.

There are NO nutritional differences in GMO and organic foods

Pick one you like:

http://www.google.com/webhp?complet....,cf.osb&fp=d525c48dd6fa49f2&biw=1016&bih=522


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> but you're still going to die just like everyone else


Give credit, where credit is due. I loved the movie- Moonstruck


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Science done by anyone who cares to do it.
> 
> Most all the studies end up the same.
> 
> There are NO nutritional differences in GMO and organic foods


First you said that organic is not better than GMO _in any way_ and now you are shifting the target to nutritional differences. I never claimed that the nutrient makeup was different between the two. I do think there are a number of stark differences between the two and IMHO, the label "organic" has been watered down to the point where it simply isn't good enough for me. I don't want chickens who receive no antibiotics and who eat organic grain, I want chickens who do all that and run around on grass eating bugs and weeds. Even the "free range" label often means nothing more than access to a tiny dirt yard for short periods every day. 

I want food that is *sustainable* and GMO crops are not. They threaten the stability of our food supply and are counter to biodiversity.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> First you said that organic is not better than GMO in any way and now you are shifting the target to nutritional differences.


It's not different in any way.
It just costs more



> I do think there are a number of stark* differences *between the two


What would those be?


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

chamoisee said:


> First you said that organic is not better than GMO _in any way_ and now you are shifting the target to nutritional differences. I never claimed that the nutrient makeup was different between the two. I do think there are a number of stark differences between the two and IMHO, the label "organic" has been watered down to the point where it simply isn't good enough for me. I don't want chickens who receive no antibiotics and who eat organic grain, I want chickens who do all that and run around on grass eating bugs and weeds. Even the "free range" label often means nothing more than access to a tiny dirt yard for short periods every day.
> 
> I want food that is *sustainable* and GMO crops are not. They threaten the stability of our food supply and are counter to biodiversity.


What makes "organic" sustainable. On a field scale i mean? Simply curious how it can be sustainable. I am not talikng producing onions on 100 square feet, I am talking producing 700 million tons of wheat organically. I am interested in how this could be done?


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Jena said:


> check your labels. Last time I bought Wesson oil, it was soybean oil.


Okay now I've just showed my stupidity, and my lack of reading labels, I use wesson oil.:ashamed:

I checked my cupboard.


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

I do on occasion use Smith and Wesson oil .... and that definitely isn't edible. <lol>

Ohio Rusty ><>

There is no sound more lonely than a cold and quiet anvil ......


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

farmerDale said:


> What makes "organic" sustainable. On a field scale i mean? Simply curious how it can be sustainable. I am not talikng producing onions on 100 square feet, I am talking producing 700 million tons of wheat organically. I am interested in how this could be done?


By taking care of the soil and the earth instead of exploiting it to the point where it cannot produce without chemicals. There are organic operations (Horizon dairy) which are not sustainable. There are also highly successful large organic operations which are. However, in my opinion large scale farming is the cause of most of our food safety woes. If spinach were being produced by a few thousand 50 acre farms, would we have the same issues as when it is produced by only a handful of mega farms?


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's not different in any way.
> It just costs more
> 
> 
> ...


Please refer back to what I wrote above.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Ohio Rusty said:


> I do on occasion use Smith and Wesson oil .... and that definitely isn't edible. <lol>
> 
> Ohio Rusty ><>
> 
> There is no sound more lonely than a cold and quiet anvil ......


My husband leaves his knife sharpening oil sitting everywhere in the kitchen, I guess I'm lucky it's in a smaller bottle or that would get used too!!!...LOL


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Please refer back to what I wrote above.


That didn't answer the question since there are no GMO chickens.

Let's try again:



> I do think there are *a number of* stark *differences *between the two


What would those be?


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

chamoisee said:


> By taking care of the soil and the earth instead of exploiting it to the point where it cannot produce without chemicals. There are organic operations (Horizon dairy) which are not sustainable. There are also highly successful large organic operations which are. However, in my opinion large scale farming is the cause of most of our food safety woes. If spinach were being produced by a few thousand 50 acre farms, would we have the same issues as when it is produced by only a handful of mega farms?


Who will become these thousands of farmers? And how do you sustain agriculture on a large scale organically? My soil is getting better and better in spite of using herbicides, and fertilizers. those that do not replenish the soil are effectively mining it. Organic agriculture mines the soil. There is not enough manure to fertilize all the farmland in play today to sustain organic ag. Then what? And finally where does tainted spinach almost always come from? Organic farms.

There is no easy answer, but organic is not it... Sorry.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> By taking care of the soil and the earth instead of exploiting it to the point where it cannot produce without chemicals


No cropland can keep producing without adding "chemicals"
It's called fertilizer, and ALL those harvesting crops have to replenish the soil.

"Taking care of the soil" can mean less TILLING by using *herbicides *to control weeds.

"Sustainable" is just a buzzword unless you specifically define what you mean by it because once it's defined, you will see it covers ALL types of crops and many different farming methods


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

And we shall be waiting for explanation on how any type of farming can be eternally sustainable, Bearfoot. We will wait a long time for the answer. I don't think I will sustain myself long enough though,


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

farmerDale said:


> And we shall be waiting for explanation on how any type of farming can be eternally sustainable, Bearfoot. We will wait a long time for the answer. I don't think I will sustain myself long enough though,


Your staying power isn't my problem, lol! ;-)


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Ah, we are all humans, we all have opinions. Part of the beauty of this earth. One hopes opinions are based in real life, I guess. And yeah, I am not a quitter...lol


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Amazonian Indians may have found such a system. Adding charcoal to the earth, and doing slash and burn on small plots, then moving the plot every few years seems to be what they did. The rainforest rebuilt the used plot, and so on. But I suspect you aren't looking for answers at this point, merely a way to justify current practices.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

I would like to know how the world can produce th 700 million tons of wheat needed for its survival, using organic means. 

My garden is totally self sustaining, and i don't move my garden from place to place, like those indians, which is actually not sustainable.

But I have enough home grown manure, from home grown feed, to feed my garden plot indefinitely. I am not talking a sustainable homestead, I am meaning more feeding the world...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Amazonian Indians may have found such a system. Adding charcoal to the earth, and doing slash and burn on small plots, then moving the plot every few years seems to be what they did. The rainforest rebuilt the used plot, and so on. But I suspect you aren't looking for answers at this point, merely a way to justify current practices.


If our population densities matched theirs, it would be a viable system.
If we only fed ourselves, and no one else, it could work.

If we all lived in a jungle, and had no cities, we could do it that way.

But lets stick to *reality*


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

I guess that is part of my point harry chickpea. It is not sustainable to move grain fields and pastures from one place to the next, to let nature replenish what we have taken out. It must be replaced on the spot to be sustainable, no?


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2011)

One commonly erroneous assumption I frequently observe is people confusing organic with sustainable. 

Sustainable tends more towards the organic, but organic is not always sustainable.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

anybody who thinks organic is sustainable has never seen the hay fields I had to deal with this year.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

farmerDale said:


> I guess that is part of my point harry chickpea. It is not sustainable to move grain fields and pastures from one place to the next, to let nature replenish what we have taken out. It must be replaced on the spot to be sustainable, no?


"Must" is a strong word. I know that some situations, like the sugar cane fields grown in the drained Everglades have caused the ground to subside over 6 feet because of loss of tilth. I've seen it. OTOH, the family farm in Vermont (which is Cr*p soil to begin with) shoulders on, and did so for many years (over 100) by rotating pasture and crops and placing back all the cow manure.

As far as population densities, those will likely start dropping. One of the TED online lectures details how many countries that were third world are now plummeting in population growth. Western geegaws cost money, and people are thinking twice (goinna be crass here) about having an extra kid instead of a big screen tv in their future.

There is also the pandemic possibility, which I'm slowly thinking may be in our future.

I'm not fighting agribiz in general. People gotta eat. I will fight for continued choices on WHAT will be eaten and HOW it is grown and IF it will be allowed to remain available. As for "growing" soil, I'm very encouraged by the whole concept of using charcoal. I've watched compost piles do their unseen "burn" back into CO2, and I've seen charcoal remain undiminished in the soil for years. However - all I'm doing is responding with a possibility. I haven't done personal tests. I'm not in close communication with anyone who has. My comment is a rebuttal to "what we are doing now is the only thing we CAN do." I believe that to be false.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> As far as population densities, those *will likely start dropping*.


I don't think so
The populations are growing, and the world isn't getting any larger.



> My comment is a rebuttal to "what we are doing now is the only thing we CAN do."


Anything "can" be done, within reason. 
But with some things, it's a matter of scale.

Rotating pasture with crops is great IF you have livestock.
If you don't, you have to use other means to replace the CHEMICALS the plants take up.


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## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

Population growth which is slowing...is still population growth. You still end up with more people, just not as many more as you first thought.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Rotating pasture with crops is great IF you have livestock.
> If you don't, you have to use other means to replace the CHEMICALS the plants take up.


Rotating pasture with crops is helpful.... but one still needs to replace nutrients taken out of the soil. I dont have to fertilize my pastures as much as I do hayfields,,, but the manure produced by the cattle consuming the grasses is not enough to keep the pasture strong and healthy. If we take crops off the land we must put nutrients back in order to maintain an even balance. there are no free lunches... organic or otherwise.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Population probably deserves a spin-off thread. Obviously, none of us KNOW what will happen, but we can make guesses. I used to more or less agree with Erlich and the population bomb concept, but there are some interesting things happening that don't make mainstream entertainment news in the U.S.

The big concern was always Africa, and how the numbers of births there would overrun the world. I have to warn you that what I am about to say is going to be grossly unpalatable to sensitive people. I preface that color of skin, ethnicity, or indigenous religion have no part in my reasoning.

I'll take it on a semi local level, just to simplify some of the concepts.
1. Liberia (as an example) existed for centuries without a population problem. Deaths by childhood diseases, illness and accidents, and occasional skirmishes brought on by hunger limited and stabilized the population. That was the norm.
2. Colonization, and the need for cheap labor involved in non-food industries, such as rubber plantations and rubber processing "grew" the population by breaking old groupings and traditional roles, and introducing new farming techniques and the idea of swapping labor for imported foods and goods.
3. Cheap labor as a method of profit was a 19th and 20th century artifact. As technology increases, and the requirements of labor become more onerous, it is abandoned. Simply put, stupid or uneducated people are now less in demand.
4. Without a source of income, and therefore political power, these groups have become marginalized and restive.
5. Those in power were only able to maintain it through the use of increasing force.
6. The use of force creates revolution, ethnic wars, and opportunities for even more violent leaders to take control. Revolutions, wars, and violence drop population levels. Liberia is only an example, and the problem is much more widespread.
7. Reverting to old methods of agriculture no longer work, due to outside pressures and a surrounding society unable to protect crops and animals.
8. The combinations of overcrowding, lack of proper nutrition, and injuries lead to massive health problems, which kill more people.

In the past, such events were very small scale, hardly even noticed outside of the affected populations.

A few serious twists have been tossed into the mix. Westerners, for whatever reason, have decided to muddle, and in attempts to help, have actually exacerbated the situation.

A. Church teachings promote copious births, supposedly due to the sacredness of life, but also for the institutional desire to overwhelm non-believers by sheer numbers. The end effect in such scenarios is only increased numbers of children enduring misery.
B. Medical attention to treat diseases that would otherwise limit populations, diseases such as malaria, yellow fever, aids, and so on, have stopped the attrition that would reduce pressures.
C. Rescue and relief efforts have removed those most threatened by political strife to safe havens. These people tend to be leaders and/or well educated. That deprives the country of guidance, opposition to political extremism, and the very people that could resolve the strife and suffering. (Another example of this is Cuba. By allowing mass migration, the U.S. actually extended the power of Castro.)

The battles, genocides, and atrocities go on in Africa. They are simply not reported on American news. Do some searching. Read. Use other sources. The bottom line is that populations in such countries fall.


On the other end of the spectrum, we then have Italy as another example of why population levels may be peaking in developed countries. In Italy, the government has started to have to PAY people to have children. The economic squeeze on the common married couple, between wages/taxes/expectations/cultural norms, have made it impossible to have children without outside help. Why have kids if they are going to turn the parents from middle class to poor, and any expectation for the offspring is only something worse?

U.S. population grows because of legal and illegal immigrants. Without the additional exploitation that those allow, we as a nation would have many of the same problems as Italy. 

Carrying capacity of the earth's farmlands may end up NOT being the deciding factor on population levels. Politics, lack of meaningful work, violence, and new diseases are more likely going to switch us from population growth to shrinking numbers.

Barring extreme pandemics, the changes will likely take at least two or three generations. If there are fast moving pandemics, well, ask your local Inca Indian what happens then. Most historians now agree that the effects of smallpox, flu, and other new diseases to the Americas reduced the native population by 80 to 95% within a couple of centuries. The larger the population, the more concentrated it was, the faster it was devastated. The Romans "decimated" by killing one in ten. Disease in the Americas only allow one in ten to live.


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## PurpleMartineer (Apr 12, 2008)

Well I have no idea whether its poison or not, but I am not necessarily going to believe a canola farmer on this issue, because the canola farmer wants to keep his job.


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm having a good laugh over the last post......but my thoughts will stay unmentionable


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Rotating pasture with crops is helpful.... but one still needs to replace nutrients taken out of the soil. I dont have to fertilize my pastures as much as I do hayfields,,, but the manure produced by the cattle consuming the grasses is not enough to keep the pasture strong and healthy. If we take crops off the land we must put nutrients back in order to maintain an even balance. there are no free lunches... organic or otherwise.


So if this is the case, how on earth did the soil exist before the advent of chemical agriculture???

Seriously, the pastures in England that have grazed sheep for centuries are beautiful, lush and green...very fertile...with no chemical fertilizers used in all that time. Someone had better go warn them that those healthy looking pastures are depleted!!!


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

PurpleMartineer said:


> Well I have no idea whether its poison or not, but I am not necessarily going to believe a canola farmer on this issue, because the canola farmer wants to keep his job.


Canadians have been guzzling the stuff for almost 40 years. Thanks for trusting me so much. I don't trust "organic" farmers because they want to keep their "jobs". 

Or my Doctor, or the police, or firemen, or fishermen, or any farmer, or....

Laughable indeed.


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## PurpleMartineer (Apr 12, 2008)

Oh boy, 40 years. Just enough time to grow some nice sized tumors. Everyone has a need to maintain the status quo and we can all go down our own roads of reasoning on that front. If it's grown natural, it's from God. If you slather it in toxic petrochemicals, it ain't. Nuff said.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> If it's grown *natural, it's from God*. If you slather it in toxic petrochemicals, it ain't


Who made the petrochemicals?


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

PurpleMartineer said:


> Oh boy, 40 years. Just enough time to grow some nice sized tumors. Everyone has a need to maintain the status quo and we can all go down our own roads of reasoning on that front. If it's grown natural, it's from God. If you slather it in toxic petrochemicals, it ain't. Nuff said.


Yup tumors!:teehee: Pretty much everyone in Canada has a tumour now from all that canola oil! And the Japanese, who utilize canola oil almost exclusively from Canada. What is the life expectancy of the Japanese again? 

Canola oil is slathered in toxic petrochemicals? Hmmm. I never knew that, and I grow it. hmmmm. I'll have to think on that one. And here I always thought canola was a plant and grew naturally. I guess it grows fakely then?

Please enlighten me. Teach a canola grower about the growing of this crop, and all the "slathering I do with petrochemicals".

:boring:


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

PurpleMartineer said:


> Oh boy, 40 years. Just enough time to grow some nice sized tumors. Everyone has a need to maintain the status quo and we can all go down our own roads of reasoning on that front. If it's grown natural, it's from God. If you slather it in toxic petrochemicals, it ain't. Nuff said.


I'm purty sure poison oak, poison ivy and jellyfish are made by God, too.


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

Now I see there is Crisco Canola Oil......
It's so bad that companies are adding it (canola oil) because they want to lose their good name with consumers ~ said facetiously


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