# LGD behavior problems--how to resolve?



## holmestead (Apr 22, 2009)

Hi guys, I'm from south central Kansas on a 12-acre farmstead.

I have a Maremma/Anatolian cross, unneutered male that is 6 1/2 months old. He was born from working parents at a goat operation.

A couple months back we had trouble with him killing young pullets and a couple of turkey poults. I had read about tying what he killed to him so I tried that. I also whacked him with the dead birds (once pretty severely) and yelled/reprimanded him. Since then I've kept him separate from the poultry except when some of them get out of their fencing.

Fast forward to this week. I find one of my sheep with its ears chewed up. Not sure who did it--but I suspected my LGD. Two days later I caught him doing it. I grabbed ahold of him and pinned him down to do submission. He has been a little rougher with the sheep of late, particularly this one, like trying to climb on it. He's been around our sheep and goats since we brought him home but he has always been a bit of a chaser/wants to play with them. So of late, I've had to keep him separate from the livestock which I know is not good because the whole point is for him to be WITH the livestock!

This morning I went to walk the perimeter with him on a leash--I'm trying to establish this routine--and we came up on a one of my layers headless and chewed on. As soon as I picked it up he lies down and looks at me guiltily. I gave him a few whacks (nothing too hard this time) and reprimanded him. So at least he knows I disapprove of it.

What should I do to deal with these behaviors? I've read a lot of the prior posts on LGDs. Here's some of the advice I've seen:

1. Get a shock collar and spend time with him everyday watching him interact with the birds and sheep. Provide shocks for negative behaviors, reward positive behaviors.

2. Same as 1 but with a long line so I can pull him back. Provide rewards for leaving things alone.

3. Sell him/give him away. Either you screwed up training him or his individual temperament isn't suitable for an LGD.

4. He's bored. He needs another dog around he can play with--but you also need to continue to correct the negative behaviors.

What do y'all think?!?


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## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

Ohhh boy he still has a couple years before reaching maturity. Your routine sounds like a good start. And ya being with the livestock is necessary. Agree with the bored part but seriously, you get another dog you may end up with double the trouble...I have thought of that with my LGD thinking she is getting bored and is why she has taken to escaping. BUT I feel with the baby kids I do not want to put another dog that may take to murdering my livestock, which will in turn probable egg my current LGD into being that naughty as well. My LGD is 1 1/2 yr with little or no prior training. You CAN teach dogs new tricks no matter how old, I stress training and patience and when it all clicks you will have the most awesome LGD you could ever want 
OH I did put some toys out for mine, and chew bones...now I have to go find the hole she is sneaking through.........


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## Oregon Julie (Nov 9, 2006)

I think that to start with you might try to pen the dog up in the area that the livestock hang out. This still allows for the bonding without the danger. This is a baby and it is doing baby things. Unfortunately it has had the chance to do some really bad things because it had no mentor to tell it otherwise-either humans or an adult dog to teach it the ropes. Since you can't be there 24/7 I would set it up so that when you could not discourage the bad behavior it can't happen.

Please don't thump the dog with the dead bird. I truly don't think it does any good and potentially harms your relationship with him. Also as to the alpha rolling, consider that this dog is going to (in theory) weigh 100+ lbs. You can't alpha roll him forever without getting into a real ugly scene. It is better to teach him with positive reinforcement then negative. 

A lot of times I can discourage bad behavior in young LGDs by scolding them, especially if I have taken the time to establish a good relationship with them to begin with. I do socialize mine. I want them to be fine with myself and my husband and our animals, but do not want them welcoming to strangers or strange animals. I do not teach them to be pampered house pets, but I want to be able to check ears, trim nails, brush them, etc. as needed. I do not want to have to get 3 men and a boy and a tranqulizer gun to try to check them over.

Because I have established this relationship they pay attention when I scold them for doing bad stuff. Worse case scenario I might consider using a shock collar, but it would be in only certain situations and with great caution. Truly I consider that to be a absolutely last thing that I would do to try to change the behavior, there are lots of options that I would try before that.

BTW as to chasing, you might try a drag. However only if you have a fairly clear area so that the dog cannot get hung up and only if there is nothing he can jump on to and off of, potentially hanging himself.

Questions for you, did your stock have any previous experience around LGD or herding dogs? When did the chasing start? What are the ages/breeds/size of the stock involved?


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## holmestead (Apr 22, 2009)

Thanks for the comments & the perspective (folks in this forum are so generous with their knowledge). This is my first LGD--and goats & sheep so I don't know what's a normal problem vs. a severe problem that may not be solvable.

Oregon Julie: My wife agrees with you on thumping the dog. I was pretty upset the time I did it (and I'd heard that's what you're supposed to do--but apparently lots of bad practices get passed on that shouldn't). This time I didn't hit hard--but I will avoid hitting at all in the future. He clearly knows it is bad behavior so I can see how it is just going to make him distrust/fear me rather than teach him.

Thanks for the advice on the alpha roll--definitely not a sustainable practice considering how big this boy is going to get! (Again, bad advice--this time from our vet! He is just a pet vet--probably has zero experience with working dogs. Maybe I need to look around for a better vet.)

Answers to questions:
I just have 2 goats (La Mancha wethers) & 2 sheep (Suffolk). I know the goats weren't around LGDs (I got them at a fairly young age shortly before I got Jupiter (our LGD). The sheep were from a sale barn so I don't know their background. They were lambs when I got them, I would guess they are 6-10 months old. The goats are probably about 10 months old.

Chasing--the chasing isn't too bad, just occasional. But he did it a fair amount once he realized they would run if he chased (about 3 mos. old). Then it settled down but now it's picked up a bit again at around 6 mos.


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## celina (Dec 29, 2005)

if you arent into the shock collar..i've seen citronella collars..that send a poof of oil and they supposedly hate it....same concept jsut different tactic....


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## LoneStrChic23 (Jul 30, 2010)

Hi! In dogs you need to give a correction the instant the bad deed is committed.

When you came upon the head less layer this morning, the dog acted guilty because he sensed your displeasure, not because it did something wrong. For example, many people when potty training a puppy and they find a pee spot on the rug, they yell at the puppy, rub his nose in it/spank/yell at him. The puppy has no idea why the owner grabbed him up & is rubbing its face in the mess, they only associate the urine/feces with the owners displeasure. So instead of alerting the owner the next time he needs to go outside to potty, the puppy then starts hiding under tables and in corners to do his business. Change the senerio, have an owner who doesn't let the puppy roam unsupervised, and the moment the puppy squats to potty in the house the owner can give a loud "NO!" interrupt the puppy and rush him outside and praise lavishly once business is done outside. That teaches the puppy to want to potty outside for praise, vs hiding in a corner in the house, not wanting its master to know it's going potty. 

In your case, finding the bird long after the deed is done and punishing didn't teach him anything as dogs seem to live in the "now" and to him the act of killing that bird was a long gone memory.

My mom had great luck several years ago with a high powered remote control shock collar to get her heeler mix to leave chickens alone. She'd put the collar on, let the dog out and watch. As long as she didn't chase or try to grab any of the chickens she was fine, but the second she tried anything, my mom gave her a zap! She did this many, many time through out the day in various situations like while she was doing yard work, while the chickens were relaxed and calm, and while they were squaking and running about like interesting play toys & a few times she'd do inside, watch from the window and zap her while she was alone with the chickens. That taught her that chicken chasing was a no-no even when she couldn't see mom anywhere.  Took about 3 weeks of work and after that she'd just work on it at very random times. It's been 3 yrs and that heeler is still considered "chicken safe" 

Also keep in mind your guy is still a baby. He's gotta get all this figured out and to a dog a chicken is a mobil, squawking toy that's hard to resist. Work with him, give him time & be prepared for him to still be a "puppy" for a while.

Best Wishes,
Crystal
http://noodlevilleadventures.blogspot.com


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## Oregon Julie (Nov 9, 2006)

Your vet is just a typical vet. They have very little training, if any, on how dog brains work. The advice he gave you on Alpha Roll is something that you could easily find on some LGD websites, but more and more people are starting to understand that this is not as you stay a sustainable way of dealing with behavior problems.

Your dog has sort of a triple whammy to get past. He is young and inexperienced, his owner is inexperienced in both LGD and sheep/goats, and finally the stock was inexperienced in how to deal with a LGD of any age. It was sort of a difficult start for all concerned because of all these things but I think you can get past it.

Do consider making a pen so the dog can be kept from continuing with the bad behavior. Feed the stock near the pen, have their water near the pen, make them feel as relaxed as possible around the dog. The more relaxed they are the more relaxed the dog will be and the less likely he is to view them as play things to be chewed on.

Crystal I love your description of how your mom dealt with the heeler mix and the chickens. She actually used a shock collar in a appropriate manner and it worked well. I wish more people would think these things out and use them that way, not just in a punitive fashion.

Celina I might be wrong but I tend to believe that most LGD wouldn't be effected enough by a cintronella collar. They are tough buggers and would need a bit more sturdy of a reminder that they were involved in a bad behavior if some of the earlier stuff that has been suggested didn't work.


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## celina (Dec 29, 2005)

likely....i just wanted to put it out there...i have no problems with shock collars..but some seem quite put off by them....then again..not everyone uses them right....i just know some dogs are really really sensitive to smell and that's why these seem to work...hopefully this situation can be remedied....


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

First off get him neutered before he becomes sexually mature, usually around 8 months old. It will calm him down some and he will not try to wander off for a female in heat. 

Birds with chewed off heads are not dogs. Dogs kill, pluck and eat them, much like a coyote. Skunks and other animals chew off the heads and leave the rest. He acted "guilty" since when he is around a dead bird he gets hit with it. Tieing a dead bird to him does nothing but frustrate him and smells bad. 

Until he is trained do not get another dog. While it takes 3 or more to make a pack two can and will work each other up and can cause more damage if they are both young and untrained. 

Take him on your feeding chores, pet your goats, hold a chicken or two and let him know they are "yours" and to be taken care of. Make a chicken area so he can see and smell them but not get them. He will get use to them being around and cannot harm them.
My older LGD killed a few chickens when he was younger. He was forced to smell them and see them, go into the coop when I fed them but he was NOT allowed to play with them or concentrate on them or I gave his collar a good tug or poked him on hard and told him NO! I have held them petted them and made him be calm around them.

The goats taught him themselves not to bother them. When he was 4 months old he was right behind me and followed me into a pen where a doe just had triplets she beat the heck out of him and he learned respect. Also here and there when he is with me at feeding time the does will hit him and he backs away. They are very snotty about their food  Aside from him getting butted my goats climb into my lap, get pet, etc and he knows they are mine and not to be messed with. 

My year old LGD has issues with adolesent chickens, not sure if it the way they move or sound but he has been caught in the act messing with them and they I desend on him like a harpy  The goats have beat him up too so he never bothers them and neither have ever chased a goat. 

Pen him with the animals all around, put a rabbit hutch in his pen with chickens in it. Make sure when he is out you are there to correct any behavior. Take him around on your chores. If the animals are penned in a small area at night, barn etc let him out of his pen so he does not get bored, gets exercise and predators are more active and if he is penned and hears or sees them he might bark all night and annoy the heck out of you. Toys, bones and etc will also keep him busy. 

While he is a guardian he is still a puppy and needs training and he is still a dog so treats, toys, walking on a leash and etc is good for him.


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## Runestone (Jan 7, 2007)

I don't have an LGD but there is a good forum about LGD's...

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/workingLGDs/

I think you have to join to ask questions. This was recommended to me by someone who works with sheep and has LGD's

Hope it helps!


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

thaiblue12 said:


> First off get him neutered before he becomes sexually mature, usually around 8 months old. It will calm him down some and he will not try to wander off for a female in heat.
> 
> Birds with chewed off heads are not dogs. Dogs kill, pluck and eat them, much like a coyote. Skunks and other animals chew off the heads and leave the rest. He acted "guilty" since when he is around a dead bird he gets hit with it. Tieing a dead bird to him does nothing but frustrate him and smells bad.
> 
> ...


Great advice :clap:


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## berrley (Apr 7, 2010)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I spent some time on the workingLGD's yahoo group and they were pretty adamant about a young LGD (under 18months old without and older LGD on site) never being left alone with the livestock. They are still too playful and need to be kept separate. Like putting them next to them but with a fence in between so they can see the goats or sheep but cannot attempt to play with them. We have an 11 month old and we keep him separate for now.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I spent some time on the workingLGD's yahoo group and they were pretty adamant about a young LGD (under 18months old without and older LGD on site) never being left alone with the livestock. They are still too playful and need to be kept separate.


You are correct.


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## Caitedid (Jun 2, 2004)

Thaiblue- I have caught one of our dogs with a headless chicken, not because they were eating it that way, but because they had been pulling on/swinging by the head. Just a thought.


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

I have a SportDog 400 collar that has worked wonders with my Pyr who will be 2 in March. He has been allowed to run with my adult goats, but created problems at kidding by guarding the kids from the doe. I put the collar on him and stood watch. It took 1 shock for growling at the doe. I didn't wait for him to lunge. The next kid he saw drop was watched from a distance.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I spent some time on the workingLGD's yahoo group and they were pretty adamant about a young LGD (under 18months old without and older LGD on site) *never being left alone with the livestock*.


They cannot learn to protect livestock they aren't with.

They should be with the animals their whole lives.

The long distance shock collar method will work better than anything else since the dog doesn't associate the punishment with the owner


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## jordan (Nov 29, 2006)

berrley said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I spent some time on the workingLGD's yahoo group and they were pretty adamant about a young LGD (under 18months old without and older LGD on site) never being left alone with the livestock. They are still too playful and need to be kept separate. Like putting them next to them but with a fence in between so they can see the goats or sheep but cannot attempt to play with them. We have an 11 month old and we keep him separate for now.


Most will create a pen for the pup within the pasture so they are near the livestock but cannot harm them or be harmed. They will still bond this way, but bad behaviors don't get a chance to root. You have to commit your time and energy to training this pup and that means spending time out there with him dragging a long lead so that you can pull him back from chasing and give him a firm NO when he shows interest in those strange feathered balls that do so many crazy and eratic things around him! I think birds are the most difficult challenge for any LGD and it may be years before he is bird proof (if ever). 

You don't want a dog to fear you, but to respect you. The most difficult thing is trying to stay calm when you are so frustrated. He is just a small baby regardless of his size and he needs you to set consistant perameters. You have an even greater challenge because your livestock is young too. I run into similiar situations with my own dogs, because even my 6 month old pups weigh twice what my adult goats do, so it is difficult to count on a goat to teach them the ropes by butting them when they mis-behave. When I did find that one goat who believes she's larger than my 200 lb dogs, I put her to good use and always wish I had a camera ready to catch the shocked look on the dogs faces!  
Right now, you are dealing with a small child in a candy store.

You got some great advice here already and do join the LGD list. 
Reward good behaviors such as turning away from a chicken or goat with a calm but pleased voice and a quick rub if you are right next to him (not food). Making a move towards or watching the bird requires a loud NO and an immediate distraction (pull him back). Be patient and be prepared for transgressions over the next year and a half. If he makes a mistake, pen him again and start over. A good LGD requires commitment. Once mature, you will wonder how you ever did without him!
Good luck!
Lois


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## longshadowfarms (Nov 27, 2002)

We had our LGDs for poultry, so it was a bit easier to double fence, but it is very helpful, esp for us as we were using rescued dogs and it would take time to bond. Another suggestion would be to take him out for regular long walks, maybe even runs if you run. My last LGD would easily run for half an hour and not tire. They are much more athletic than most people realize and esp at younger ages, may need to burn off that energy in healthier ways.


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## sticky_burr (Dec 10, 2010)

well there are 2 settings on most collars if you dont want to shock. if the dog when watched focuses on the chicken give it a vibrate if the dog lunges or threatens shock.. maybe

maybe make a cart and harness for him(her?) and go to collect(riding in the cart lol) to pick up grass clippings/leaves to compost or drop off produce. sounds like a good second job for the pup


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

Your pup is just that, a pup, and she is doing puppy things. We got our LGD at 7 months. For the first several weeks, she terrorized our pullets if they were out of the coop. She would grab them and take them back to the coop and then one day decided that feather plucking was great fun. She didn't bother the big chickens, just the pullets. We locked the chickens up for several weeks until they got a little bigger and she understood that I was boss. The ear chewing is another puppy thing and probably started because he wanted someone to play. One thing we did with ours is not to leave her alone with the livestock. However, she went with us everywhere. She has also been taught basic commands and is immediately reprimanded if she does not follow them. We take her to the chicken coop everyday and everyday she must sit several feet away from the coop while the chickens are ushered in and out. When we first started this we had her on a leash, the girls were let out and scratch thrown on the ground all around us. If she moved from her sitting position, a growl and a sharp reprimand with the leash put her back in a sitting position. She now sits and watches on her own without the leash and has protected the girls from 2 very determined hawks. She is now 11 months old. Basically, what I am saying is that he is young and still trying to figure all this stuff out. Be firm with your correction and make sure at this stage that you are right there to correct. At 6 months he is too young to be on his own with the stock. Something that really helped me understand LGD's and the stages that they go through was reading about the tales of the Daemon sisters. It is funny to read and will really give you insight into your own LGD. Don't worry he will settle into his work. My girl has for the most part although she is still a puppy. Our biggest issue now is getting used to the barking and learning her different barks. Blessings, Kat


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

heres my personal experience with my GP. they will drive you crazy with their antics till they hit around the 1 yr old mark. being a male he may take longer. but at that yr of age they really take a turn for the good. you will see a marked improvement. mine was born and raised with fowl. still she mauled a few, so most importantly, you cant leave them alone running loose with the animals till older. i learned that. penned near them where they can watch and observe. and let loose to mingle when you are around. and dont make the mistake i did, dont make them into a pet. they will be closer to you than what they are supposed to guard. and above all else, they must come from true working lines


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

another quick thought. dont ever discipline them by whackin them with a dead bird. you want them to protect the fowl. not have a fear or dislike of the fowl b/c of their past discipline


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## Curtis B (Aug 15, 2008)

To the OP, if you feel bad about your actions so far, don't. The methods you used, are used by many people, and many have been successful with them. I will admit to beating a couple of my dogs with a dead chicken, and have also tied the dead bird around one of their necks. For me, it worked, but I caught them in the act when I did it with them. Would the dogs give their lives for the birds, probably not, but I haven't lost one since. I even sit an laugh as the turkeys peck at the dogs shiney collars till the dogs bark at the birds to get some peace. The roll method was taught to me by a dog trainer, who I was told was the best in the state, when I had a problem malamute a few years ago, it is still considered a proven method in some experts minds. I always try to be as fair and consistant, and even my 4 month old LDG will stop dead in her tracks when she hears my "stern" voice telling her no on the rare occasion she is looking crosseyed at my chickens.


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## Gymno (Jan 23, 2011)

We have had our 2 maremmas for a year now, one is 1 yr and her brother and being there for an entire day was really eye opening. Our male was lovingly trained by their entire family, being handled with children and taught how to interact with the alpha handlers. He also was introduced to poutry, goats and sheep. That has been a huge advantage for us in the learning curve. When we received them, the youngest was 3months old and we got to put our training skills to work, but also it was really cool to see how much the older trained the younger!. Puppys are well ...puppies, but as they get older they need to be trained (like kids eh?) as to what is permissiable and what isn't . LGD's have certain instincts that make them so different than a PET dog. For one thing it is vital that the dog understand that the owner is the alpha. Sometimes we have to be tough, but always loving. They want to learn and to please as well. because the oldest was properly trainined, and we were also "trained" to understand how to continue that training, it is getting easier and easier to have them. There are times we all just horse around together and have fun. I can push them over and they know i am the alpha....and they want ther bellies rubbed. 

when you are correcting them, this takes time. There should be some specific commands that they learn. Then you teach them. Use their name and then tell them what you want or don't want. The main job of our maremmas is to guard our chickens and us. 

Early on, we were taught to use the command "LEAVE IT" that would immediatlely mean to the trained dog to STOP what he was doing. We would spend a lot of time out at the chicken coop and watching. Part was testing the dogs, part was training. No way around this committment. When we saw (usually the younger one) "chasing " a chicken or even thinking about it, i would yell the dogs name really loud, to get their attention and to break their attention on what they were doing. I would then say "LEAVE IT" to reinforce that. THen i would relax, which would also cause them to relax. That is a very important thing and reinforces the ALPHA bond between us. Another simple but important example is when i was sitting in a lawn chair. The older one would come up with a big old grin and put his Paw on my knee. I immediatly put it down and said "GUS NO PAW!" I don't want that kind of unwanted behaviour. He doesn't do it anymore. The younger one had a "biting" issue, which is just a puppy mouthing mostly. But the behaviour has to change....so it is "NO BITING". Consistency is key. even at meal time, they must sit before they get their meal. 

They are very smart and want to learn, and as reflected in this thread so much is that puppies do "puppy Stuff" . It is stopped through fair and consistent training so they understand. Right now, i don't know what i would do without them. There are coyotes, bears, and cougars around our place, and we hear them at night, but haven't lost anything. When we hear them bark, we roll back with a smile knowing they are doing their job. 

We love our dogs. 

Best to all..

Jim


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Not all LGD's always work the way you'd hope they do. He does sound bored, or like he didn't bond strongly enough in the beginning. I'd never run just one dog but you're too far into it now to go back so.....

Guarding chickens - augh..... It was and is more important to me that my dogs guard my goats and keep large predators out, so I gave up on my dogs guarding chickens because they too chased and finally killed one, after that, it was over. I penned my chickens up in a manner so that the dogs can and do cirlce the whole pen, thus keeping them safe, yet they are untouchable by the dogs. They can semi-dfree range from their coop, but not have the run of the place and encounter my pack which does have free run of my place. 

I had to make a decision, what was more important, my goat herd being protected by the dogs or the chickens. I penned the chickens up thus letting my dogs protect both with no fowl casualties.

Shock collars - thought by some to be extreme but can be used effectively with good results most of the time, I think.

Unfortunately you can't always be there to see the wrongdoing. Oh in a perfect world, you'd suddenly leap to confront the pup and scold him. Well as we all know that is not always possible. 

Tough decision. You may have to re-home the dog eventually if it can't adjust or won't grow out of this stage, I know I've had to do that. I have so many dogs that DON'T do anything wrong, I can't afford to keep the ones who don't pan out or appear to be not suited to guarding stock and might corrupt the whole pack. 

So I rehome them to someone with a more ideal situation for them, just sent one to a new home the other day, she is as happy as a clam now, being a farm dog and being spoiled with no goats to bother but horses around and other dogs too, so she fit right in.

Yes you have to be patient you also have to realize, the time it may take to wait out a bad behavior could take several months or years, and at that point, you have to calculate, is the dog worth it? Especially when there are so many successful LGD's out there who never had any issues to begin with, work like a dream, protect don't hassel stock. As Ross said in another thread you have to weigh the good and the bad points to see if it is cost effective to run an LGD or as in this case, keep one or rehome it and start all over. Some people have the luxury of being able to wait out bad spells for a long time, others can't risk it or afford it, and as long as they humanely rehome the pup in a good home, I don't have problems with anyone saying "hey, this just ain't gonna work out" and moving on, hopefully next pup is better. And maybe too, you need to think about runing a pair of dogs not just one next time if you do rehome him. 

Good luck.

Best regards, 

Goatress
www.lgdnevada.com


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