# Do you till your garden?



## Huntmo1 (Nov 30, 2011)

I've read that tilling your soil causes more damage than good. I have decided the last couple years to just mulch it with straw in the winter and then only dig up the areas that I will plant each plant or seed. Hopefully that will keep the # of weeds down (not to mention create less work for me).

However, I was wondering what your thoughts were on this subject?


----------



## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

No, I don't till our garden areas. They are established and not tilled. We have a lot of raised beds, and an in-ground area. Our orchard will be converted to Permaculture, now that the pigs are gone. Make sure you use seed-free straw for mulching...


----------



## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

Second that, on the seed-free straw.

I've used your proposed method for a few years now and I so much prefer it. My soil is in great shape, the worms are back and it is so much less work.

You'll do a lot more slug patrol, however. Just so you know.


----------



## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

I've been tilling for many years, with no bad effect. A good light till in the spring is good for your soil. All this 'no till' nonsense was created by large chemical agribusiness to sell more round up and 'round up ready' crops. They actually have some people believing that its better to saturate your soil with round up, than to give it a turn with a tiller ( like folks have been doing for near a hundred years!).

Don't get me wrong, there is a point at which you can over-do it, and pulverize your soil. A good light till in the spring is all that is needed.


----------



## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

I will add on to my earlier post to include I ORGANICALLY GARDEN, and have been doing so for many years. There is a thread in the Gardening Forum covering a few years of my Raised Bed Gardening, never tilling. Of course, you don't walk on the beds, either. Now, in deep wide-bed gardening, you don't till, and you also don't walk on them. There are many resources on no-till gardening. However, the initial prep for the area may include tilling, before you begin your no-till gardening methods. This is to insure proper drainage...


----------



## garbear (Jan 30, 2011)

I till in the spring and put mulch and other plant matter till it in the fall. We are going to tripple the garden space size.
Garbear


----------



## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

For the smaller garden areas, I just turn over the soil with a shovel and rake sort of smooth. For the big garden we till, but not too deep. No way I could handle turning all that with a shovel.


----------



## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

I don't use Round Up.


----------



## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

I've never tilled my garden. I started by sheet composting with newspaper over the grass to kill the grass. If it seems to get compacted, I just loosen it a bit with a broad fork or scratch at the surface if I'm planting seeds. And I mulch and layer lots of compost over the bare spots and in the paths...I don;t have permanent beds, they change every year depending on what I grow where for the year. I grow cover crops where there are empty spots large enough to. I also do it all organically, no made made substances enter my ground at all.


----------



## Huntmo1 (Nov 30, 2011)

Well, I don't use any chemicals on my plants, so that isn't an issue for me. But, I do believe that not tilling the soil allows for the soil to maintain its nutrients better...and, you're not bringing up old weed seeds and other stuff that you don't want growing in your garden. It seems to cut down on the weeds and is less work overall. 



Darntootin said:


> I've been tilling for many years, with no bad effect. A good light till in the spring is good for your soil. All this 'no till' nonsense was created by large chemical agribusiness to sell more round up and 'round up ready' crops. They actually have some people believing that its better to saturate your soil with round up, than to give it a turn with a tiller ( like folks have been doing for near a hundred years!).
> 
> Don't get me wrong, there is a point at which you can over-do it, and pulverize your soil. A good light till in the spring is all that is needed.


----------



## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

I think it also depends on the soil to some extent,


----------



## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

I always till mine and have never saw it hurt it.You don't jump out there and till wet clay, or you are gunna have hard as brick bats clods for a whole year.

If I had an abundant amount of mulch,I might cut back on some tilling,but I don't.


----------



## Ky-Jeeper (Sep 5, 2010)

I know how good it feels to till, but...

Till only if you have to, and feed your soil every time you do in some fashion. Bring on the heat!


----------



## idigbeets (Sep 3, 2011)

All soils need some sort of tillage from time to time or provide aeration for the soil and to minimize compaction from walking, driving on the soil. It doesn't have to be rototilled to achieve this, broadforking, sub soiling w/ a chisel plow or single shank, a deep plow could be done if one really wants turn over the soil.

No tillage setups can create a stratification of the soil that over time can limit mobility of nutrients, e.g. phosphorus is relatively immobile in soil, and calcium tends to move upwards in soil. 

One can also use zone tillage, which is a combination of surface rototilling 2-4 inches and a deep subsoiling below 6 inches.


----------



## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

lanewilliam21 said:


> I've read that tilling your soil causes more damage than good. I have decided the last couple years to just mulch it with straw in the winter and then only dig up the areas that I will plant each plant or seed. Hopefully that will keep the # of weeds down (not to mention create less work for me).
> 
> However, I was wondering what your thoughts were on this subject?


I do not use a tiller, not good for soil. I mulch with compost and a layer of shredded leaves. I plant right into that. If I need to work a new piece, I use a tine spade and double dig. On large areas I used a 3 pt. S-tine cultivator to rip it up, no tiller. My brother has 6 acres in market garden and plants a cover crop in the fall. In the spring he mows it down and rips with the S-tine, keeps doing it a few days apart until he has a good seedbed. He has very fertile soil with a lot of plant material mixed in. Keeps the soil mellow and has little compaction or crusting problems when irrigating....James


----------



## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I till about 4 inches deep in the fall and plant a green manure crop. If it dies over the winter, I don't have to do anything for the larger crops the next season. Spring is wet here. If the garden isn't ready for cool-crops, I won't get them -so I prepare the garden in the fall. I have a few raised beds I use a potato fork on and a few that I till with a small tiller. I don't know how to plant lettuces unless I have a fine seed bed to work with. My garden is 7000 sq ft. I can't find seed-free straw. The grass clippings are good in the spring, but disappear as summer wears on. 

So much is determined by what you have, what you want to do and how you like to do it. To each his own.


----------



## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

I need to till mine more. I cleared trees last year to make my garden area. It has been compacted due to the equipment used to remove the trees and from driving over it with the pickup while hauling organic matter. My soil is mostly clay.

I've been digging in rice hulls, compost and rabbit manure. Been digging up tree roots and big rocks. I am anticipating a time coming where my tilling will become much less frequent. I've had such good results over the years in other areas with tilling in organic matter that I hesitate to go to a no-till method.


----------



## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

"So much is determined by what you have, what you want to do and how you like to do it. To each his own." (Callieslamb)

Callieslamb has the right take on it. To grow, rather than gather, your food goes against the laws of Nature, which require that all plants get there on their own effort rather than being placed there by a human being......So, actually, everybody "tills" in one way or another--whether they admit it or not, because the Earth has to be disturbed in order to plant seeds and plants for human food. Doesn't matter if you disturbed the earth five years ago when you built a frame of wood and poured soil from another area of the earth into it, or whether you dug a hole, filled it with tree trunks and limbs and charcoal and raked the soil back over it, or whether you used a diesel tractor and a chisel ripper plow, or a Troy-Bilt rototiller, or a simple spade and rake......... or a Mantis tiller(or dare I say a team of oxen and a walking plow?). Doesn't matter if you imported straw from a field, dead leaves from the city Fall pick up, or your own grass clippings that you raked from where they fell--that's unnatural, too--as Nature sees it......or some 12-12-12.

There are thousands of named soil types in North America, so when one person says that my tillage, your tillage, or any tillage is "good" or "bad"--you can assume they're talking through their hat, basing their opinion on a single, self-centered belief system--one which may be perfectly good for their own situation, but completely out of touch, ignorant of yours or mine--and probably unwilling to take any sound scientific look through your eyes, at your soil. 

But, that's what makes gardening fun--to learn about _your_ own particular garden, _your_ soil and its condition--and just how much _you_ will need to disturb it--or, rather, _work with Nature_, to grow your food. So, you read one book that said tilling your garden is "bad". Read some more and make your own decisions. Newton's Law applies: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"--especially when it comes to gardening opinions.....

Well, that was a lot of pontification, so, what do I think? I use a combination of all methods, except raised beds. I have sandy loam soil, so it must be replenished with organic matter more than most soils, so I reserve plots in fallow/legume--deliberately planted by first tilling, usually discing or a spring tooth cultivator-- growth and turn them into(tillage) the soil on a rotation basis, about every third or fourth year. I do as deep as possible tillage in each potato plot, so as to break up compaction, and plant oats in the middles to get more root biomass down deep to loosen up the substructure. Then rotate to other vegetables. I do similar in strawberries, since those are in a three year strict rotation--then out of strawberries. After tilling under the third year berry plants, I use nurse crops of oats, with grocery store beans, and bulk bought turnips, then till that into the soil in the Fall or Spring, weather permitting--or, weedwhack that mixture, incorporate it with horse manure in the next year's compost pile--then mix in that summer's fish cleanings......I use straw or raked leaves from my yard for dry mulch in the row plantings and squash plots, and on any other bare soil--for weed control and moisture retention--after which I may disc or plow in the Fall, to expose weed seeds and accumulate moisture from snow and rain. I also have a pretty large pile of chopped leaves/grass clippings which will cover the brassica patch this season--got that just before the metal throttle screw got sucked into one valve and blew the head on the lawnmower last Fall(there's always something....)

I plant by the radar, so I have not found it an advantage to put straw over the soil during the wintertime: like Callieslamb, I want a seedbed that is not saturated or cold, and fairly workable to plant small crops.....before it rains again...that happens a lot here in Michigan...And, oh yes, I do use some commercial fertilizer once in awhile, and I do like to use an ancient 1941 Ford 9n and a single bottom moldboard plow(that's in my blood and DNA from the early years....  )

Hope this gives you a few ideas.

geo


----------



## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

The only way to get organic matter and nutrients into the soil is to put it there. It ain't going anywhere sitting on top of the soil and plant roots won't grow upwards to search for it. For the past 7 years, my gardens have been plowed as deep as a plow can be set to go. That has incorporated organic matter into the soil to nearly a foot deep. Once during that period a subsoil plow was used to break up the soil nearly 3' deep. It's almost pure prairie silt and that's the only way that it can be handled.

Martin


----------



## camp10 (Nov 13, 2010)

I mulch in the fall with shredded leaves. I till them under in the spring. 

And, if the weeds get out of control, I've been known to bring out the tiller during the summer. The first job of my garden is to feed the family (both fresh and preserving). I've got 3500 square feet to tend to. Sometimes I need a little help from the machines.


----------



## barnyardgal (Sep 21, 2009)

Yes~i till with a front tine tiller-does the soil good-no way can i use a shovel to turn all my garden~~when i add compost to the garden,it needs tilled in for the roots of the plants ~i don't use any chemicals/sprays either~~

I use grass clippings/shredded papers between the rows/and around the plants....


----------



## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

I just want to add that I know many of you no-tillers are organic and don't use round up. But much of the rhetoric against tilling has come from commercial, nonorganic 'no-till' interests.

It really depends on the size of your garden. I don't see how you can thoroughly mulch a 10,000 square foot garden, it would cost a fortune in mulch or would take alot of effort gathering so much leaves, dead-grass, and etc. It would require me to labor all season just to find so much mulch, never mind spreading it.


----------



## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Darntootin said:


> It really depends on the size of your garden. I don't see how you can thoroughly mulch a 10,000 square foot garden, it would cost a fortune in mulch or would take alot of effort gathering so much leaves, dead-grass, and etc. It would require me to labor all season just to find so much mulch, never mind spreading it.


And how well I know! I'll be gardening at least that much ground this year. At the moment, 6,000 of that has about 500 bags of leaves waiting to be dumped and plowed under. That was about 25 loads with my pickup and about 25 miles round trip and 3 gallons of gas each load. That's just to add humus to nearly 100% silt soil. It would probably take 5 years of doing that to have a base for no-till planting surface crops and another 5 for root crops. So, big John Deere tractor doing 8' each pass and nearly a foot deep gets the soil's attention and a Mantis does the fine-tuning.

Martin


----------



## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

I think geo in mi has posted thoughtfully. We all "till" one way or another.

I can't say I am a no-till advocate. I can say I am a minimal-till advocate. 

I keep a 5,000 square foot garden. I do not plant intensively -- it's just me here. I used to till up the whole garden every spring before planting. Then I fought the weeds all spring and summer... spent far more of my time weeding than gardening.

Three years ago, I covered the entire garden with a layer of cardboard and topped it with flakes of seed-free straw. Now when planting, I prepare ONLY the area that I wish to plant, whether it is a seed bed or individual seedlings.  I rake back the straw, dig in my compost and plant. When I've harvested, I re-cover the area with cardboard and straw.

I spent 5 years building my soil before embarking on this program. My soil is now rich, dark and loamy. I tilled in literally tons of compost on it to achieve this. Now I let the worms do as much work as possible.

I will probably fully till the garden every 5-7 years. But I have LOVED the cardboard/straw method. It has KEPT me from applying herbicides. I can easily keep up with the few weeds that break through the barrier. And I have been able to focus on gardening instead of weeding. Also, this method is a great water saver. The only drawback has been how much the slugs love this environment. But that's what chickens are for.


----------



## Leo (Feb 7, 2006)

I do till, layering & have raised beds, I'm organic. When I first worked the land here, the ground was hard, compacted, broke a few shovels, and shovel handles digging by hand. Slow and hard work.

Over the years, I add manure/barn bits, and DH tills it under, once or twice a year. The ground is loaded with worms now. I have cardboard in the rows 'tween the raised beds and a wood planks to move around the tilled areas as the ground is nice and soft now. I also have a couple no till beds that I layer with straw, manure, cardboard, etc. All methods work well, it just depends on what I'm aiming for.


----------



## marytx (Dec 4, 2002)

I'm going to guess those of you who don't till are not gardening in clay soil.


----------



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

If you can get many dumptrucks of mulch delivered for free or have a tiny garden, the Ruth Stout method works fine.

For rest of us unless you can wait few decades, incorporating what organic matter we do have requires tillage. I still wonder where in world some people that mulch heavily get their mulch. Around here just straw is $4 or $5 for small square bale. There is no "free rotted hay" in massive quantities. Leaves are about only "free" thing and they require significant gas money for hauling anymore.

Course thinking about it, moister climates, there probably are more sources of mulch. When I lived in Michigan, I got my garden mulch mowing under powerline that went through my property. Power company had no objection, quite happy to have me keep it clear.


----------



## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

mary said:


> I'm going to guess those of you who don't till are not gardening in clay soil.


You'd guess wrong


----------



## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

mary said:


> I'm going to guess those of you who don't till are not gardening in clay soil.


Mine started as clay. As I said, for the first 5 years I *tilled* in tons of compost and manure -- anything I could get my hands on to lighten the soil. I kept animals I probably would have gotten rid of sooner just for the poo. Everything from the barn, the chicken coop, kitchen scraps, coffee grounds (golden!), leaves, wood chips. It paid off.

*Now* I till minimally. The layer method allows the soil to develop undisturbed except where I'm planting, is terrific for weed control and saves water. And it's a lot less work -- which was my true goal!

Straw here isn't as expensive as other places. For cardboard, I haunted the dumpsters behind furniture stores.

The OP asked for experiences with this method. That's what I'm giving.


----------



## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

HermitJohn's post shows the dilemma that a lot of gardeners go through. Sometimes finding the organic materials takes almost as much effort and money as the actual gardening itself. The first European settlers had easy pickin's, they could just choose the best, levelest, best drained, blackest soil and proceed to exploit it until it was pretty well worn out, then since everybody had animals, they just spread some manures and continued. Didn't take too many generations until the ag system would nave failed, except for the introduction of relatively cheap commercial fertilizers......

Today is a different story for the would-be homesteader/gardener....... The easy pickin's are gone, and it's up to the new homesteader to almost go through a rehab effort to be able to grow any food. It seems that most places today will require massive amounts of organic matter to be added--and like it or not, tilled INTO the existing soil, at least during the startup years. And, of course, that organic matter has to be replenished as the microbes eat it up and the fertility is carried off into fruits and vegetables and grains.

That's why I always advise that any newbie homesteader take along a heavy duty post hole digger on any inspection trip for a property in consideration--to look at the topsoil layer(if any is left....), the soil type, and the compaction and drainage..... Now, a person may get lucky and find an ideal soil, but, I think, in the majority of cases today, that won't happen. From this thread, it seems like most of us are dealing with situations that are less than ideal--clay and silt(now devoid of any fertility ) being pretty high on the list. 

For that reason, I suggest that from now on, that any advice we give include one more thing--enough _extra_ space to grow our own biomaterials. That's the system I ended up with. I was lucky(probably dumb luck at that) to get enough space to do that--if the future turns sour, I won't have to pay exhorbitant prices in terms of straw bales, and gasoline, etc. I can grow it in place. To me, that's money in the bank.

My thoughts.

geo


----------



## margoC (Jul 26, 2007)

I don't till but I don't really have to. I did double dig somewhat when I first established my garden. Now it's all raised beds. I work stuff into the soil with a shovel and long tined rake as needed. 

I had entertained the thought of renting a tiller when I made my garden but I didn't have to after all.


----------



## elkwc (Jun 3, 2007)

I have deep sandy loam soil. I till what I feel is required every year. I have been shredding leaves and tilling them under for a few years. Here where I'm located the winters are usually warm enough if you don't till and mulch heavy diseases and bugs can overwinter as the mulch keeps the soil warm enough it either doesn't freeze or not very deep if it does. A few years ago I tried the no till on one part of my garden. The 2nd year I had severe issues. The extension service advised me to turn the soil over and let it freeze good. I have every year since and my issues have diminished greatly. There is no one method that fits every garden or farm in the USA. Jay


----------



## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

mary said:


> I'm going to guess those of you who don't till are not gardening in clay soil.


Wrong with me as well.


----------



## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> If you can get many dumptrucks of mulch delivered for free or have a tiny garden, the Ruth Stout method works fine.
> 
> For rest of us unless you can wait few decades, incorporating what organic matter we do have requires tillage. I still wonder where in world some people that mulch heavily get their mulch. Around here just straw is $4 or $5 for small square bale. There is no "free rotted hay" in massive quantities. Leaves are about only "free" thing and they require significant gas money for hauling anymore.
> 
> Course thinking about it, moister climates, there probably are more sources of mulch. When I lived in Michigan, I got my garden mulch mowing under powerline that went through my property. Power company had no objection, quite happy to have me keep it clear.


I farm, and so getting mulch is not an issue at all for me, but I see your point. Here straw is cheap, I probably produce 5000 tons of it each year. 

The thing that the tillers don't often see, is that as the soil gets more mellow from not tilling, and having it under a nice mulch, the need for tillage becomes less and less. The soil structure is being built, not disturbed. It is hard to believe until you try it.


----------



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

farmerDale said:


> I farm, and so getting mulch is not an issue at all for me, but I see your point. Here straw is cheap, I probably produce 5000 tons of it each year.
> 
> The thing that the tillers don't often see, is that as the soil gets more mellow from not tilling, and having it under a nice mulch, the need for tillage becomes less and less. The soil structure is being built, not disturbed. It is hard to believe until you try it.


Worms and such do tilling once the organic matter is built up, ala "One Straw Revolution". However until that happens you either need massive quantities of organic matter if piled on top or you need to incorporate the organic matter without burying it, ala "Plowmans Folly". And from my experience both those methods are much less effective in drier climates. In 20 years, I still havent fully adapted to much drier climate here in NW Arkansas than what I had in Iowa and Michigan. In very short season upper Michigan garden I could far outproduce in my garden there what I can here. But that was a northern rain forest type climate. Huge amounts snow and in summer rain. I was in a particularly moist band. 30 miles north or south of where I lived they got significantly less precip. And when I started gardening there, it was nearly bare sand. Everything I did was pulling myself up by my own bootstraps thing. I used native organic matter harvested from another part of the land to prime the pump. And I literally went from stunted pathetic garden first year to very healthy productive garden the second. All via the Plowmans Folly type system. No added fertilizer. No organic matter brought in from outside.

Well thinking I knew it all, I get down here to Ozarks with heavy red clay and much less annual rainfall and blistering hot summer with 2 month drought. And without a good water source. Well it didnt work nearly as well. Plus I have LOTS OF ROCKS and big roots. And yep it can take years of tilling to get rid of most of them. Dont remove them and you would need feet of mulch decomposing. Also that summer sun will burn away mulch. Very unlike that northern rain forest climate.


----------



## woodsy (Oct 13, 2008)

farmerDale said:


> The thing that the tillers don't often see, is that as the soil gets more mellow from not tilling, and having it under a nice mulch, the need for tillage becomes less and less. The soil structure is being built, not disturbed. It is hard to believe until you try it.


This is the camp i am in.
After the initial working of the soil such as plowing and harrowing in my case,
all that might be worked thereafter is the top 6" incorporating amendments.

It is my understanding that different beneficial organisms live at different depths in the soil. 

After disturbing the the soil such as yearly tillings it takes valuable time for these organisms to get reestablished where they belong.


----------



## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

woodsy said:


> This is the camp i am in.
> After the initial working of the soil such as plowing and harrowing in my case,
> all that might be worked thereafter is the top 6" incorporating amendments.
> 
> ...


Those "organisms" only exist if there is food for them to live on. Without a steady source of food, they die no matter if tilled or not. Where endogeic worms have been introduced, that process is accelerated and eventually leaving no organic matter in the soil.

Martin


----------



## woodsy (Oct 13, 2008)

Pretty good run down/study on the whole till or no till controversy at :

http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010117attrasoilmanual/010117attra.html

There is more to it than meets the eye and a lot of whether to till or not to till depends on the individuals soil itself.

However, less tilling or no tilling for many could lead to healthier soil.


----------



## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

If you are opting to do raised beds or no till gardening, be sure your soil drainage issues are addressed. Taking care of that makes all the difference!


----------



## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

woodsy said:


> Pretty good run down/study on the whole till or no till controversy at :
> 
> http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010117attrasoilmanual/010117attra.html
> 
> ...


I agree, and would point out that what we are talking about here is this; 

"Soil organic matter can be compared to a bank account for plant nutrients. Soil containing 4% organic matter in the top 7 inches has 80,000 pounds of organic matter per acre. That 80,000 pounds of organic matter will contain about 5.25% nitrogen, amounting to 4,200 pounds of nitrogen per acre. Assuming a 5% release rate during the growing season, the organic matter could supply 210 pounds of nitrogen to a crop. If the organic matter is allowed to degrade, purchased fertilizer will be necessary to prop up crop yields due to lost organic-matter nitrogen.

Ultimately, building organic matter and humus levels in the soil is a matter of managing the living organisms in the soilâsomething akin to wildlife management or animal husbandry. This entails working to maintain favorable conditions of moisture, temperature, nutrient status, pH, and aeration. It also involves providing a steady food source.

All the soil organisms mentioned previously, except algae, depend on organic matter as their food source. Therefore, to maintain their populations, organic matter must be renewed from plants growing on the soil, or from animal manure or other materials imported from off site. By feeding the soil livestock, fertility is built up in the soil and the soil will feed the plants." (From the article)

From my rough calculation, that's two pounds of organic matter per square foot. Getting it that way and keeping that way is no easy task.......


BTW. the whole ATTRA site is given in Post #11 in the Fireside sticky above--I believe this article may be included.

geo


----------



## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

geo in mi said:


> From my rough calculation, that's two pounds of organic matter per square foot. Getting it that way and keeping that way is no easy task.......


I'm working on it! Stripped boughs off just under 30 Christmas trees a few weeks ago. Working on another 34 today. When finished with the "electric tomahawk", 3 times through a mulching/bagging mower will have them just right for tilling into a new garden area which is almost 100% silt. I'll be adding 10,000 years worth of humus in one go.

Martin


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Well thinking I knew it all, I get down here to Ozarks with heavy red clay and much less annual rainfall and blistering hot summer with 2 month drought. And without a good water source. Well it didnt work nearly as well. Plus I have LOTS OF ROCKS and big roots. And yep it can take years of tilling to get rid of most of them. Dont remove them and you would need feet of mulch decomposing. Also that summer sun will burn away mulch. Very unlike that northern rain forest climate.


Wow, what a nightmare! 

I gardened for 20 years in Michigan, and learned how to "make do" in pure beach sand by adding lots of organic material and watering in summer. Had it "down pat" ... then I moved to SW PA ... clay soil and RAIN like nothing I've ever seen before! And because of the clay, the rain doesn't go anywhere. Drainage? :hysterical:

Needless to say, it's been an adjustment. :teehee:


----------



## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> Wow, what a nightmare!
> 
> I gardened for 20 years in Michigan, and learned how to "make do" in pure beach sand by adding lots of organic material and watering in summer. Had it "down pat" ... then I moved to SW PA ... clay soil and RAIN like nothing I've ever seen before! And because of the clay, the rain doesn't go anywhere. Drainage? :hysterical:
> 
> Needless to say, it's been an adjustment. :teehee:


I came from Indiana clay to Michigan sand. Thought I'd died and went to heaven.....
But we managed in Indiana because there was still some topsoil left. 

geo


----------



## woodsy (Oct 13, 2008)

I'll be glad when someone figures out how to turn snow into fertile compost.
It lands right where it needs to go , just sayin.


----------



## birdman1 (Oct 3, 2011)

Every situation is differint Most of my soil can use a good tilling to incorperate organic material and loosen it up for planting .I wish I could get ahold of plenty of good mulch .but now i till shallowly to kill the weeds hpeing to spare as many worms as possable ,a shouvle or fork works fine for a few tomato plants but for me raiseing enough for 1 or 2 years and to share with others the tractor and tiller are the tools of choise there are lots of other chores to do .I love my troy bilt horse and hated the old front tine bouncer


----------

