# Why bother with a shotgun?



## kruschev (Dec 7, 2017)

nobody needs to hit birds in the air. I've taken 1000's of birds with .22's, or with .177. They all land. It's illegal to shoot raptors, folks. The one long-gun to have, if you are to have just one, is a sound-suppressed AR15 with a Ciener .22lr conversion unit. This rifle is far more versatile than any shotgun can ever hope to be. Shotguns are nothing like as effective as people think they are.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

While I do keep an AR for HD, I still believe that a shotgun is probably the most versatile weapon on the planet, everything from birdshot to slugs that can handle just about anything encountered. There's no game animal walking on North America that can't be ethically and legally taken with a shotgun and the proper ammo. The same cannot be said for .223. 

Then there's the cost factor, a decent pump shotgun is less expensive than your average AR. Then there's also the fact that many people enjoy wingshooting. 

So, while I do own 4 ARs, my 15 shotguns aren't going anywhere. 

Chuck


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## kruschev (Dec 7, 2017)

it's noisy, short ranged, the ammo is fragile, bulky, heavy and buck and slugs are 3x as expensive as 223 practice ammo. Shotgun trigger pulls suck and without rifle sights, slug accuracy is very limited indeed. Buck and birdshot patterns (and slugs) have different centers of POI. So do different sizes of birdshot, and different makes of slugs, buck and birdshot also pattern differently and to different centers on targets. If you've got a tight enough choke to make buck effective to say, 35m, it's too tight a pattern to be of any help at less than 10m. What type of load to have in the mag? Do you waste the "wrong" ammo, in order to get to what you want? single load it, thru making noise and wasting time, all the while people are shooting at you or game is fleeing? You can't carry the needed pack of gear, food and water, and more than one longarm, so dont pick the very limited shotgun. While the guns might not need to go anywhere, fire, flood, riots, disease, fallout, chemical spill, can make YOU go somwhere (on foot) real quick.

Robert Heinlein had it right. you can only really own what you can carry in your arms or in your pack, at a dead run. I knew a guy who trained people, back in the 70's. he got a contract with a Sikh religious group, here in the US. they had a little compound, one shack per family. When Harry and a buddy went there to train them in combat shooting, one of their members had stuff in an otherwise empty shack. The Honcho told him to clear it out, to make room for Harry. The guy told the honcho that all his stuff wouldn't fit in his one shack. The honcho said " you have too much stuff" The guy piled it all out in the center of the compound, others took what they wanted, and burned the rest. Every time my wife tells me there's a space shortage, I tell her "you have too much stuff"


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## kruschev (Dec 7, 2017)

12 ga shells are 10 to the lb, 60 gr Aquila subsonic 22's are 100 to the lb. 40 gr .22's are 135 to the lb. 60 gr 223's are 35 rds to the lb. Rifles can be effectively suppressed, especially the Ciener .22lr conversion unit in the AR15, using subsonic .22lr ammo. At night, there's very little flash. More comes out of the ejection port, actually, and that can be suppressed with a solid plastic brass-catcher.  At night, the 12 ga flash is a huge fireball, effectively locating you for your enemies. The blasts call them in from a mile or more radius, and scare game for almost as far. The 10.5" barreled AR, using 69 gr hpbt match ammo, with scope, trigger job, and anti-cant bubble level, will effectively snipe to 1/4 mile, at least 3x the range of the shotgun with slugs. With 60 gr Nosler Partition softpoints, it will reliably take deer or hogs to 150m, with chest hits. The .22 unit will brain them to 50m, too. The shorty AR will take down in 5 seconds to conceal in your pack, re-assemble to fire in 10 seconds. It's quite effective to use with just one arm, too, as you carry a kid, or help a wounded adult to walk, etc.


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

I disagree, For home defense its ideal that you only have to point and shoot when loaded with buck shot and your not going to kill a bystander in another room. I enjoy shooting a shot gun more when bird hunting because it takes skill anyone can pick off targets with a rifle sitting still. As far as going to war NO its not ideal but it beats the heII out of throwing rocks


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Psychology, man, psychology. When an intruder walks around the corner and sees a shotgun leveled at him, he's pretty sure it's loaded with buckshot, and that you can't possibly miss him. 

Don't they teach anything in Russia??


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Are you related to Gun Kid?


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

hunter63 said:


> Are you related to Gun Kid?


I'm thinking more like Gecko45, Ninja boots and all.......

Chuck


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## Hitch (Oct 19, 2016)

I think everyone should have a shotgun and a handgun at the minimum. Shotguns are so versatile, they're great for shooting a snake with birdshot and for home protection with buck shot. It would be like shooting ten .38 calibers in one shot with a 50-yard range. Doesn't get any better then that as far as I'm concerned.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

kruschev said:


> nobody needs to hit birds in the air. I've taken 1000's of birds with .22's, or with .177.


It's also illegal to shoot lots of birds with rifles or handguns.
It depends on the type of bird and who controls the regulations.

There are many reasons to have a shotgun.
None of your reasons not to are all that convincing to me.



kruschev said:


> The one long-gun to have, if you are to have just one, is a sound-suppressed AR15 with a Ciener .22lr conversion unit.


Yes, we've heard that one before, when you posted a link to your suppressor manufacturing books *for sale.
*
Most don't want the expense of a suppressor and conversions aren't as always reliable as simply having dedicated firearms in different calibers that are always ready to use and always sighted in properly.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

M5farm said:


> I disagree, For home defense its ideal that you only have to point and shoot when loaded with buck shot and your not going to kill a bystander in another room. I enjoy shooting a shot gun more when bird hunting because it takes skill anyone can pick off targets with a rifle sitting still. As far as going to war NO its not ideal but it beats the heII out of throwing rocks


Actually there's been some studies done that show a .223/5.56 with proper ammunition has a lesser chance of over penetration than OO Buck and most popular pistol cartridges due to the bullets velocity and subsequent fragmentation.

Here's just one article:

http://www.gunsandammo.com/ammo/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/



> When using rifle ammunition with projectiles designed specifically for personal defense, such as Winchester’s new .223 PDX1 loadings, fragmentation is assured. Bullets striking an intruder will separate into smaller, lighter pieces and—most likely—not overpenetrate and exit the body as errant shrapnel. All of the energy generated will then be transferred into the target. If the round fired is a miss and hits only wood or drywall, the projectile will break apart into smaller pieces—while these are still dangerous, their potential for injury, or penetration of additional walls, is much less than a pistol bullet or buckshot pellet. Many SWAT teams are using M4-type rifles, and overpenetration, when your teammate may be on the other side of the wall, is a major concern.


Another:

http://preparedgunowners.com/2016/0...for-home-defense-fbi-overpenetration-testing/



> Your typical choices for home defense weapons are a pistol, the shotgun, or a rifle.
> 
> Now, when most people think of overpenetration risks they assume that pistol bullets would penetrate less than the rifle or shotgun.
> 
> ...


As for just pointing a shotgun, I've done quite a bit of patterning and attended a couple defensive shotgun classes, at average inside the home distances the pattern hasn't opened up that much......still need to aim.

Chuck
.


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## RonM (Jan 6, 2008)

If I could only own one weapon it would be a 20 gauge Rem 870, I have a room full of rifles and shotguns and a few handguns, and I wore a gun to work every day for 20 years. I pretty much know what each weapon is capable of doing..and I pick the shotgun..


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## resto (Dec 7, 2017)

I view Fire Arms as Tools. A Box End Wrench is better for some Bolts than a Deep Socket on a Ratchet Handle, say for like an Oil Plug. I like Tools. I have specialty Tools, that make some tasks easier. Sure, I can use an Adjustable Crescent Wrench for just about anything. Shotguns have their place in my House. I think its a matter of preference. "Do You". For example, my Goto for Home is a custom SS 1911 in .45 ACP. As my "Defense Scenario" develops, the 1911 will work to get to an AR in one of many calibers or an M4 12 Ga if that's the tool for the job. Hunting is the same for me. Elk 300 WM, 30.06, 308 Bolt Guns work for me. Deer is the same accept that Im "High" on my Custom AR in 300 ACC Black Out 150 Gr, right now. In a Pinch Im sure I could use my Bow for Home Defense, for that matter. Ive learned in life that, Its Not The Weapon, Its The Person that makes the difference. Train, Train, Train, then Train some more.


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

I think you should own at least one gun of every caliber and the same with shotguns. I like my KSG but if I was on the run I'd pick a 17HMR in bolt action with a Circuit Judge over my shoulder.


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## oceantoad (May 21, 2009)

Hunter63,
Wasn't Gun Kid the one with the combat wheelbarrow?


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

It all goes with what you are familiar with. I have a number of rifles and shotguns and I try to give them all a good workout but my model 37 has been in my hands for 46 years. It's part of me. It's my "go to" gun.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

oceantoad said:


> Hunter63,
> Wasn't Gun Kid the one with the combat wheelbarrow?


Yup and I believe a suppressed .22LR although he called it a "Tactical Wheelbarrow". Similar to this:










I don't know IF he's out of jail yet though. He's now synonymous for any internet "knowledge" spewing troll that happens upon a gun forum. I always liked Geko45 better as he was funny and really just pulling folks legs. 

Chuck


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Well I have a 20ga. with 3X12X40 Vortex Scope smooth Barrel can hit the X every shot 100 yards with Slugs.

Lots of places it is Illegal to use a Rifle.

If a Shotgun has no Choke shot will spread pretty wide at short distance and the Gun is great for running Rabbits and flying Quail.

big rockpile


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

And at the end of the daywhen SHTF and 22lr is unavailable I know 12ga shells will still be all over.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Back when I was a kid Single Shot with 22 Shorts was the death of many critters.

big rockpile


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

kruschev said:


> nobody needs to hit birds in the air.


This is reason #17 b why I rarely open my safe or share my firearm collection with anyone. Practitioners of the 2A are hit with more "nobody needs..." than can be recorded.

I don't tell my wife she needs a .45 when she is comfortable with a .380.
I don't tell my neighbor he needs an AR when he has been dropping deer with his model 97 for decades.

Creating hypothetical scenarios where you are firing a shotgun at night against enemies should be taken for what it is worth, and when I reach the point where I am spending time considering the consequences of exposing my position by creating "fireballs" from my 12 gauge, then my bucket list has either been completed or lost.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

locked the original poster was just trolling and is gone for now , no need to respond to a post intended to get you riled up for the posters amusement.


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