# Oil and gas rights question



## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

I have found a place in SE Ohio I would like to see, however the site states oil and gas rights do not come with the property. The owner states the property receives free gas.

Is this the same dangerous situation as mineral rights? Does this include the issue of possible "fracking". I have googled and get conflicting info.

Thank you all in advance.

Terri


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

The previous owner has sold the oil and gas contained in the property. As part of the deal the property gets free gas as long and if it is available.


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

edcopp,

Does this mean they will likely come in anytime and start drilling for gas or oil? Do you think this would include fracking?


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

It means there is probably at least one existing well on the property, and gas line with gas line right of ways.


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## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

Very common that a parcel of land no longer has mineral rights. But other than that, you have not given us enough information to form any kind of opinion or to give good advice. You should research the information yourself, starting with the realtor, and talk to neighbors, county extension agents, etc.. Lots of variables to deal with depending on the property and the neighborhood.


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

Thank you....I saw the home listed on swiss homes realtor. There wasn't much info provided and I am not familiar with the area. Looks like a bit of work may be in order before I drive the four hours.

Terri


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## Glade Runner (Aug 1, 2013)

If you can get free gas, count your blessings. Don't pay any attention to the anti-fracking propaganda because it's nonsense from beginning to end.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I have property with the exact situation you have with that property... 

The rights were probably sold LONG LONG ago... Being Ohio, a fair chance the rights were originally sold off to the Rockafellers.. You can research it and probably find out who owns the rights now.. More than likely they will never sell.. 

Since you are getting free gas, then you need to find out who owns the well... It's more than likely not going to be the same people who own the mineral rights.. 

You need to see the deed for the free gas.. .it will stipulate the easement, and the terms of the free gas.. edcopp is probably right.. gas.. when available.. That means if they aren't actively pumping the well, then you won't be getting gas.. 

If someone decided they want to drill on your land, considering everything and the way it works today, then they actually don't need your permission... They can come in and put in a pad and drill away.. HOWEVER, most times they don't want to get the land owner worked up, so they well pay you for damage and the land they are using.. 

You can find out a lot of info here about your rights as a land owner.. You can also find out about the well on the property you are looking at to find out if it is producing and how much.. this will give you a good idea of how long your free gas may last.. 

http://oilandgas.ohiodnr.gov/

Also, if there is a water well on that land close to the well, then you would want to consider having the well water tested for hydrocarbons, heavy metals and any other petroleum byproducts.. .When we bought out land I had the water tested for all of that and it ran a little over $1000... it was a cheap piece of mind..


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## okiemudman (Sep 5, 2011)

Your concerns would be damage to the surface land and loss of the use of the area where the location was placed for the entire life of the well. The fracking would not present any issue at all as they have been fracking oil and gas wells for over 50 years in Oklahoma without damaging freshwater bearing sands.


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## bluebird2o2 (Feb 14, 2007)

Theres an exception too the rule you get free gas till it runs out.you could be entitled too free gas forever depending on how the agreement was written up.my neighbor gets his gas bill paid by the company that owns the well.how i know this my husband works for a large gas company.If he runs out of gas the company must pay his gas bill from other sources.old leases can go back too the new landowner if all decendents pass away.no living heirs.my dad used too buy gas leases.beware most new gas leases are only good till the gas runs out.how long is that it depends.there are some wells here nearly 100 years old.I would also be cautious of lawyers, several of my relatives ignored my husbands advice and took there lawyers advice.the lawyer is in it for the money, they got not a penny because the lawyer said too trust him and not sign too sell the gas lease.the lawyer went behind there back and signed everybody up but my relative.several of my neighbors are millionaires because they do own gas rights.We can get water tested here for free.even if you pay its not expensive.ours was done .Neighbors had theres done too yes they found contamination from Feces.Yes poop .the wells were too close too the septic tank.Its very unlikely they will drill on that property again.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

Glade Runner said:


> If you can get free gas, count your blessings. Don't pay any attention to the anti-fracking propaganda because it's nonsense from beginning to end.


 
So there hasn't been any issues with disposing of highly toxic frack water by pretending it was "treated" via. local sewage treatment facilities? The National academy of Science is lying when their research indicates that you are 17X more likely to have issues with methane in your well water if you are located within 1/2 mile of a fracked well? There hasn't been massive increases in crime, traffic, air pollution, and other problems when regions become the "hot new play" ? Oddly enough, ALL of this has been reality in the Marcellus field, so your claim of "all nonsense" really doesn't hold up to well, when compared to reality, eh? 

What planet do you live on, where fracking is all puppies. and unicorns farting rainbows?


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## Trailsend (Apr 20, 2012)

So much controversy on the drilling/fracking issue, I'd stay far away from it. You can never be too careful when it comes to your water source for your family and animals.


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## okiemudman (Sep 5, 2011)

I suppose all you folks that are dead set against fracking do not use any petroleum products or anything that is made from petroleum.


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## Gianni (Dec 9, 2009)

I find it hard to understand how they drill down 10,000 feet with 14 thousand lbs pressure on the drilling unit, seal the well and the gasses magically migrate up to a water well 100 ft deep and several miles away. Fracked or not it does not seem like true science.


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## KathleenElsie (Sep 28, 2013)

Glade Runner said:


> If you can get free gas, count your blessings. Don't pay any attention to the anti-fracking propaganda because it's nonsense from beginning to end.


We have lived with the drilling and fracking for seven years. It is noisy, dusty, creates traffic jams on our narrow road. We have ten sites all within sight/hearing. Three new ones are being prepared now for drilling this winter.
The sign on the back of our truck reads "Drill Baby Drill" we need the energy and the jobs that drilling creates. 
I will say that I will be glad when they are finished near us. It will be nice to not hear the noise 24/7.
Oh, if there is free gas provided it usually means there is a well-head on the property.


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## KathleenElsie (Sep 28, 2013)

Gianni said:


> I find it hard to understand how they drill down 10,000 feet with 14 thousand lbs pressure on the drilling unit, seal the well and the gasses magically migrate up to a water well 100 ft deep and several miles away. Fracked or not it does not seem like true science.


In our case they are drilling through our aquifer. At times they use blasting powder in the building of the retention ponds.


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## citilivin (Mar 21, 2006)

You need to read the deed that transferred the rights. What is most important is if the rights to access the minerals/gas was given and what procedures they may use to extract.


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## mulemom (Feb 17, 2013)

The county courthouse will have a copy of the oil and gas lease. It may say that oil and gas do not transfer but it may be a case where all mineral rights were sold many years ago. If the mineral rights were sold then you could be looking at some kind of mining activity or oil and gas drilling, either would cause surface disruption. If the mineral rights remain with the property see if the seller is the one who retained the o&g rights. If they did you may be able to get them to return a percentage to sweeten the deal. The courthouse should have a copy of the oil and gas LEASE which will specify what the landowner and gas and oil companies rights are and what if any compensation the surface owner will get if a well pad is installed. There HAS NEVER been an incident where fracing caused contamination in a water well. I love the '17% more likely to contain methane' statement since few water wells were tested UNTIL drilling started. Ohio EPA has ruled that sewage treatment plants may not treat or discharge frac water into waterways. Hundreds of contaminated water wells have been found in PA because o&g companies did water testing BEFORE drilling. The old shallow wells were several times more likely to contaminate water wells because they were fraced closer to the water table. Back in the 1980's when drilling started around me we heard all the same 'warnings' as we're hearing now. One well on every 40 acres and not one incidence of water well contamination.


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

I am just not willing to take chances with my children and grandchildren's futures. While I quickly realized I am not going to be able to control much in the long run, I have decided South Eastern Ohio is not for us...I will keep looking for a place.

Thank you for all the input. It is invaluable.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

The chances of them drilling another well on the property was probably pretty slim, especially if it was a smaller piece of property. 

We have 57 acres with a well on it, and don't own the mineral rights.. The free gas is a heck of a deal... and it's very doubtful anyone would put a new well on the place... 

Very seldom can you find a property that includes the mineral rights...


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

simi-steading said:


> The chances of them drilling another well on the property was probably pretty slim, especially if it was a smaller piece of property.
> 
> We have 57 acres with a well on it, and don't own the mineral rights.. The free gas is a heck of a deal... and it's very doubtful anyone would put a new well on the place...
> 
> Very seldom can you find a property that includes the mineral rights...



Simi, I was looking at 40 to 100 acres ( dreaming at the 100 end ). Are you thinking they would not bother me on that size? I have about a year to locate and ready a place. I never thought it was going to be this challenging.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

If there is already an old well on the property, a fair chance they won't drill again if the property is small enough.. but if there isn't a well, then it's a crap shoot... Best thing you can do is find people in the area that either own wells or have wells on their property and talk to them and find out what kind of new activity is going on in the area.

The area we're in, they are putting in new wells. The old wells in the area are shallower wells, and the new ones are going a LOT deeper... but they are also staying away from earlier drilled places.. I talked to the guy that owns the well on our property, and he said they are going for the gas, and it's better to drill away from older wells... He said it woud be highly unlikely we'd see them looking at our property..


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

KentuckyDreamer said:


> I am just not willing to take chances with my children and grandchildren's futures. While I quickly realized I am not going to be able to control much in the long run, I have decided South Eastern Ohio is not for us...I will keep looking for a place.


The Oil and Gas rights might have been retained by the previous owner, or they might have been retained by the previous owners clear back 20 or 30 or 50 years ago.

I don't know what "chances" with your children or grandchildren's futures you are talking of. Pollution in the air is dangerous - are you going to make them wear masks for the rest of their lives?

My wife inherited property that has been in her family for over 100 years. There were several gas wells drilled on the property back in the 1920's or 1930's. Most wells were plugged, but one old well still produces.

Then in the 1980's we were approached by an oil and gas company. They drilled 5 gas wells. In addition to the royalties we get, we get free gas as well.

There is something to say about that free gas. My wife's family has been getting free gas here since the 1920's or 1930's - that's 80 + or 90 + years of FREE natural gas - NO HEATING BILL AT ALL - in all those years. Do you understand the Hundreds of thousands of $$'s my wife's family has saved over that time?

Now granted, most natural gas wells are still producing 80 years later - but some do. It's kind of nice when you are cold to turn up the thermostat and your house gets warm for free - no cutting wood, no hauling coal, no using stinky fuel oil.

Fracking has been going on for decades. Do some problems creep up - yes of course. But for the most part, the majority of tracked wells has NOT caused damage to the environment.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Yep.. free as is really nice.. Especially when you get a $200 bill for it at your main house and you keep it around 70, yet at the farm house we keep around 80 and it's free..


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## Glade Runner (Aug 1, 2013)

wharton said:


> So there hasn't been any issues with disposing of highly toxic frack water by pretending it was "treated" via. local sewage treatment facilities? The National academy of Science is lying when their research indicates that you are 17X more likely to have issues with methane in your well water if you are located within 1/2 mile of a fracked well? There hasn't been massive increases in crime, traffic, air pollution, and other problems when regions become the "hot new play" ? Oddly enough, ALL of this has been reality in the Marcellus field, so your claim of "all nonsense" really doesn't hold up to well, when compared to reality, eh?
> 
> What planet do you live on, where fracking is all puppies. and unicorns farting rainbows?


Like I said, nonsense from beginning to end. Enviro nazis are so divorced from reality that they quite happily ignore fifty years of history in favor of lying, agenda driven propaganda.


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## Kasota (Nov 25, 2013)

My boyfriend has Ohio property with mineral rights on it. Just because a parcel of land doesn't come with mineral rights does NOT mean that they were sold long long ago. Not even close. Many people who own both and now are selling land are excluding mineral rights because they want to retain them for themselves. Just because there is no active well right now does NOT mean they won't come in and exercise their rights. 

There are as many options for leases out there as there are people to write them. You can even write a lease for a particular depth. So there could be - for example - an old Rose Run lease on a property and it is not currently in production but that does NOT mean that they would not come back in and frack it. That is happening on places I personally know of. Then there is Marcellus Shale Formation. A couple years ago company men (from oil companies) were crawling all over NE Ohio writing leases. I know a lot of folks signed. Those who signed early got horrible contracts compared to the people who held out longer. STUNNINGLY different contracts. Some leases will say that the lease expires if the company doesn't put it into production in X number of years. Some lease contracts that stipulate free gas to the property owner are not transferable to new owners. Just because the land owner has that benefit doesn't necessarily mean it would transfer. 

Ohio also has a law that allows a company - if they have leases in a certain area and one person is a hold out and refusing to lease - to "take" the rights. Yes, they would have to give X amount for production, but the landowner would lose any signing bonus. Frankly, they would rather scoop up leases on large parcels than small ones. You would want to know what company holds either mineral rights or leases to the property around you. 

It is an extremely complex situation and I would suggest you see a current copy of the lease before you purchase. Yes, if they have an active lease they can come in and do whatever is allowed for in that contract. Again, those contracts are going to vary. Some places will stipulate that that any lines cannot be put through a property if there are crops in the field - they have to do it in off season so as not to destroy the crop. Some leases are really specific about how the oil company has to remediate any land damage and some are not. Yes, I have heard some horror stories and I have also heard some mighty good stories, too. 

So an oil company might have a lease or they might simply outright purchase the mineral rights all together. There is a difference. 

Keep in mind also that "free" gas is not really totally free. Those systems take work to maintain. For example, you might need to periodically have a company come in and clean the pipe if it has a build up of non-gas material. This can be expensive - to the tune of thousands. You also have to maintain your regulators. Depending on the gas pressure coming out of the well you might need more than one. And you darn sure want to have an extra on hand in case the one you have goes bad. They are not cheap. Depending on the situation, you might also need to maintain a heater on the regulator. 

That said, I think it is a dandy thing for my boyfriend - but he knows how to manage that system and doesn't have to pay every time something needs a bit of work. Mainly he has just paid for gas well cleanings. That saves on the labor cost of their maintenance.


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

We only own the mineral rights for half our property and we have a well and free gas on it.


The free gas has been a godsend. 

However if I was buying a place and it didn't have the mineral rights I would be cautious.

First thing you'd want to know is it in the Marcellius or other shale region where that they might drill that type of a well.

Most normal gas wells are no big deal as long as they don't ruin your water. Mine you'd barely notice.

However a horizontal well like they use to get gas out of shale is a huge footprint on the land. 

If you have a lot of flat land then it might not be a big deal, but if you have very little flat land and they use all your pasture for a well pad and ruin your well it might be.


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

Wow!! As usual, this is the place to gain more information than all the googling! Thank you so much. 
Kosata and Hollowdweller, I had not idea all you explained. Thank you.


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## okiemudman (Sep 5, 2011)

Been my experience locations for horizontal wells are no larger than those for vertical wells.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

Glade Runner said:


> Like I said, nonsense from beginning to end. Enviro nazis are so divorced from reality that they quite happily ignore fifty years of history in favor of lying, agenda driven propaganda.


 If it is indeed nonsense, then take the time to investigate the events that I have noted, in the Marcellus, particularly as they occurred in the eastern half of the northern tier and the Endless mountains. Then provide irrefutable proof that reality did not occur. Don't waste too much of you time, since all are well documented events. 

When the state government prevents their DEP from citing any violations in the field, and attempts (unsuccessfully) to limit enforcement of drilling violations to the governor and two of his direct underlings, you don't have to be a genius to figure out who is in bed with who. When the feds, have to step in to prevent the "processing" of toxic drilling waste by pumping it into municipal sewer plants UPSTREAM of water intakes serving millions, you might have a problem. When a TV station in NEPA rolls tape of a puddle, bubbling like a witch's cauldron, surrounding the cap of a newly drilled and fracked well, you might have a problem. 

When a local spring, used by countless generations of locals as a source of drinking water, for hundreds of years, starts to emit foamy surfactants you may have a problem.

When you dismiss well known, well documented events as the work of "delusional enviro-nazis" you do have a problem. Facts are facts, noise and name calling is best left to the intellectually limited. Fracking can, and has, caused environmental damage. It needed to be tightly controlled, and in some locations it is. Pretending that there has not been, and will not continue to create real issues and damage is ridiculous.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

okiemudman said:


> Been my experience locations for horizontal wells are no larger than those for vertical wells.


 
Oddly enough, my son is an engineer with a support company that builds pads for fracking. Since you dismiss reality as the work of "enviro-nazis" and have such a deep knowledge of the subject, I thought your claim might need to be discussed. 

There are frack pads in the active play that involve literally removing mountain tops and sides. A pad is a flat work area that can be five acres of competed surface. Preparing the site can involve moving hundreds of thousands of yards of overburden to reach elevation, which obviously involves removing huge swathes of forest and blasting of subsurface rock, in many cases. Depending on soil conditions it many involve similar amounts of suitable sub-base being trucked in and placed. The site is then covered with a containment barrier and surfaced with additional layers of material and gravel to create a work platform. The service road to the pad can involve similar amounts of machine time, and material. The scale of this is so massive that large excavation companies attempt to buy out, or lock up the product of local gravel producers to the point that they attempt to pre-purchase millions of yard of material, to get the work done. 

Contrast this to traditional gas wells in the region where a tiny fraction of this disturbance was required, and the next year there is little evidence that the well is even there. Just a rough guess, after a lifetime in the north woods, but I would say that traditional drilling, as practiced for the last 100 years, is 4 or 5 times less impactful to the local environment.


But with direct contacts in the industry, and dealing with the good and bad of the frack play, how would I know. Especially when compared to an Okie, from 1500 miles away, right?


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## okiemudman (Sep 5, 2011)

Wharton
I have worked for service companies in the oil and gas business for forty years and have been directly involved with several thousand wells. The realities that I deal with daily do not line up with the catastrophic end of the world scenarios that you attempt to present as the norm for drilling activities.

Question do you use any product that is produced from hydrocarbon energy? The answer will be yes where and how do you propose the replacement of hydrocarbon energy knowing the fact that you cannot install enough wind generators or solar cells to replace the energy produced by hydrocarbons. Additionally those two sources have their own environmental issues with byproducts produced in the manufacturing process and hazards created for specific wildlife species.


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## okiemudman (Sep 5, 2011)

I have been involved with planning for delivery of services to an operator in that area even though I am 1500 miles away.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

okiemudman said:


> Wharton
> I have worked for service companies in the oil and gas business for forty years and have been directly involved with several thousand wells. The realities that I deal with daily do not line up with the catastrophic end of the world scenarios that you attempt to present as the norm for drilling activities.
> 
> .


 You sound reasonable articulate. Please take a moment and cite where the I present the multiple and recent environmental issues with the frac boom here on the Marcellus as "the norm"? Or how a very local event, like a compromised, poorly constructed and tested bore, which consequently breaches containment, and creates local contamination, rises to in your words, "catastrophic end of the world scenarios" Maybe if it's your farm and your way of life destroyed, perhaps. But hardly an issue a mile away, much less on a global scale. 

Next head north and tell those of us with a history in the area that dates back two centuries, how traditional and frac drilling locations are pretty similar in size and how it's no big deal. No crime, no economic instability in the communities inundated by the whole mess, no air pollution, no water pollution, no problem, it's all great. Then let us know why any mention of the truth needs to be derided as enviro-nazism. 

Fracking is a necessary step toward energy and economic stability in this country. As for claim that it is 100% harmless, fool proof and has been well done and well regulated, particularly here and in the recent past, well good luck selling that manure pile.


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## Pugnacious (May 17, 2012)

Sorry Wharton but I doubt you are 200 years old......

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## okiemudman (Sep 5, 2011)

Read your statements, scattered throughout your references are made in the plural. We do receive instruction in the use of the English language in our educational.

The overall attitude that comes through from your post are we need the energy as long as it is produced in someone else's neighborhood or area.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

Pugnacious said:


> Sorry Wharton but I doubt you are 200 years old......
> 
> Sent from my C811 4G using Tapatalk


 "and tell those of us with a history in the area that dates back two centuries" suggests nothing of the sort. Possessing long term historical ties to a region is hardly an abstract concept.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

okiemudman said:


> Read your statements, scattered throughout your references are made in the plural. We do receive instruction in the use of the English language in our educational.
> 
> The overall attitude that comes through from your post are we need the energy as long as it is produced in someone else's neighborhood or area.


 
So to review. You will not address YOUR statements that any mention of legitimate issues with fracking are nothing but the work of enviro-nazis. Any you determine that, you not only will not acknowledge the existence of these problems, but by doing so, I wish that poorly supervised, low quality outfits that did such damage here relocate, and do damage to others? Pretty twisted logic. Sad actually.

By the way, Exxon is working hard to keep executives from their XTO drilling division from being personally tried for environment crimes committed in NEPA. I guess that it's just example of the out of control granola munchers at the state DEP? I guess there are two problems with this Okie, first it can't be real since you claim that these problems don't exist. Secondly, our governor has put extreme pressure on the DEP to be as compliant and weak as possible when dealing with the folks that spent $27mil. to elect him. There's that darn reality again.


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## Pugnacious (May 17, 2012)

wharton said:


> "and tell those of us with a history in the area that dates back two centuries" suggests nothing of the sort. Possessing long term historical ties to a region is hardly an abstract concept.


Neither is the concept that people are inherently unreliable sources of information. I have a bunch of relatives with CDL's, it hardly makes me an expert on driving big trucks. I'd also be curious about these wells being drilled in the early 1800's.......

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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

It really depends on where you live as to whether mineral rights commonly are included with the Bundle of Rights, when you purchase a property. DH and I have purchased 3 properties with all of them including mineral rights (during the last ten years). When I met him, ten years ago, he had a property without the mineral rights. We are currently looking for land and almost all the properties we have seen do include the mineral rights, thankfully. Here it isn't that hard to find properties including the full Bundle of Rights. If I were elsewhere, I wouldn't buy a property without it including the mineral rights...


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

Pugnacious said:


> Neither is the concept that people are inherently unreliable sources of information. I have a bunch of relatives with CDL's, it hardly makes me an expert on driving big trucks. I'd also be curious about these wells being drilled in the early 1800's.......
> 
> Sent from my C811 4G using Tapatalk


 
How about the "concept" of having long term historical, and family ties to an area that has become polluted by irresponsible, unethical third rate outfits that cut corners on everything from bore integrity testing to waste water disposal. As for my dead relatives being a source of information about current and fluid conditions in the Marcellus play, oddly enough, I too don't have much faith in their reliability. Can't really determine if your original post was an attempt to be cute, or a result of comprehension issues, but do you have something of value to add here? 

As for your question about the first gas well, it was 1821 The first successful oil well drilled on this planet, 1859. Both in northern PA. since that point, pre-Marcellus boom, there were a few hundred thousand more. If your that curious, there is a wealth of info. available online. That said, I get the feeling it was just another wisecrack, since you had no clue that the gas industry in PA, is rapidly approaching it's third century of production......


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## Pugnacious (May 17, 2012)

So you admit your reference point is unreliable but strangers on the internet are supposed to take their/your word for it!? 

As a well completions professional, i have WAY more faith in today's technology and safety procedures than I have in "yesterdays" technology. It's come a long ways ever in the last 10 years. I'd much rather have a well drilled and fraced by a major oil and gas company in my back yard than an old gas well grandpa Joe dug 100 or even 50 years ago.......

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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

As for your first "point", I have little interest in your desire to disparage any of my history, or the attempting to follow your odd commentary on the subject.

As for the topic in general, this is no different that any other group with a stake in this issue. there are three camps at this round-up. 

1. The folks that believe that any fracking will destroy the environment. Like most, I don't subscribe to that belief.

2. The largest group that understands that most boring, done in most regions, is using best practice, and is currently our best effort to get the job done while limiting long term damage. If you are of this group, and located in my region, you are probably well aware of the fact that the whole mess had a pretty rough start here. We have a state government that totally ignored their duty to protect us, and a collection of trash outfits that really have done lasting damage to the local environment and greatly impacted the future of the industry. New York state is still refusing to issue permits, and preventing access to massive potential growth in supply, based on watching the greed and stupidity of outfits like, Cabot, and XTO, and the intentional damage they inflicted in the name of greed. Given this well documented mess, I doubt that the massive Delaware river basin region will EVER see a permit. Greedy fools and a trail of pollution is not a great way to get the ball rolling, eh?

3. The last group is people like Okie. Those that ignore the facts and dismiss everybody who points out abuses and environmental crimes of the recent past. Those that need to resort to name calling when addressing reasonable people who understand that this who issue had a checkered past, and is never going to be totally safe, or that anyone knows the long term results of massive amounts of fracking on the Marcellus, the Bakken, or the southern fields.

As for me, I'm done with the topic. Every thread is the same. Reasonable folks interrupted by name calling and ignorance. Nothing to see here.


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## Glade Runner (Aug 1, 2013)

wharton said:


> As for your first "point", I have little interest in your desire to disparage any of my history, or the attempting to follow your odd commentary on the subject.
> 
> As for the topic in general, this is no different that any other group with a stake in this issue. there are three camps at this round-up.
> 
> ...


All I can say is that after 40 years in the industry I know that any guy that uses the term 'boring' in that way doesn't know what he's talking about.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Interesting how this thread devolved into an argument about who knows more about fracking and well pads. My perspective is that of a landowner smack dab in the sweet spot of the sweet spot of the Utica/Point Pleasant shale play in East Central Ohio. If you don't believe me, go look up how many wells have been permitted and drilled in Carroll County Ohio.

Wharton is correct that folks with long term ties to an area may have a different perspective. My wifes folks have been in the area since Western Reserve times. For a long time leases were running about $10-$15 an acre based on the potential from shallow wells. Around 5 years ago a company (Kenyon Energy) fronting for Chesapeake came in leasing starting at $25 an acre.

We accepted less money (signing bonus) than we could have gotten and joined one of the first landowner groups (SURE) in the area in order to get a landowner friendly lease. We did nicely on the royalty terms.

So that's a little background. We currently have acreage in two different drilling units. The units we are in are from a pad on a neighbors property about 600 feet off our property line. The pad has 8 wells (4 northeast and 4 southwest). We do not anticipate any surface activity on our property - the collection line bypasses our property.

The well pad area is in fact about 5 acres. That is to accommodate all the equipment and material during drilling and fracking. Based on other wells in the area I expect it will be cleaned up at a later point and the wellheads and miscellaneous will be less than an acre. The first Utica well drilled in Carroll County was the Miller well and what is on the surface probably covers less than a quarter acre. 

The reality is somewhere between the two extremes presented on this thread. The O&G companies are under the gun to move quickly with their drilling programs in order to get leases held by production and/or held shut in. Our lease has both vertical and horizontal Pugh clauses so we know the rest of our land will be in units fairly soon.

So back to the OP. He needs to check the titlework and determine the current owner of those mineral rights. Are they all rights or just O&G? If it is the current owner (seller) can a deal be worked to make access subsurface only? If the rights are leased, what do the terms of the lease look like? What about easements for pipelines?

Hope this helps.

Mike


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

Not sure about ohio, but in Oklahoma the term "free gas" means the owner of the well agrees to let you take wellhead gas from the casing provided you don't let the pressure build up high enough to prevent the oil from being pumped up. I have permission granted from the well owner on my place to get gas at 5# or lower. That's all fine and well as long as I don't let enough moisture in the 1200' of line I have buried to my house. If I don't have enough drip pot locations to drain off the drip-gas the weight of the fluid in the line will quickly go above the 5# I'm allowed at the wellhead. 

Free gas is not a given in any circumstance. Usually the well has to be actively pumped in order to keep the gas flowing. If the said well starts producing more salt water than is feasible to dispose of to make the oil be worth pumping, the source of your free gas will become idle and therefore might not be present. If it's your only source of heat you have to consider how often, if ever, the line might ice up in the winter and leave you out unthawing it during a blizzard. 

There's also the safety question: All it takes is one drip of gas through your furnace to cause an explosion. 

I like it for the barn and shop building but DO NOT use it in the house. Firewood is simply to versatile and safer in my opinion.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Francis, do you not have a separator on your gas line?

At my well head there's a very large separator that every so often pumps the drip to the tanks, then at the bottom of my line before the regulator there's another smaller separator that uses antifreeze or methanol that removes any remaining water or drip. Never a worry about water nor drip getting past the low pressure regulator.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

...............I'd like to make a couple of simple observations......(1)the road built to a pad for one well is the same size they'd build to a pad for 20 wells. I don't discern any significant difference !
...............(2)The biggest reason for the building much larger multi well pads , is to accommodate all the equipment associated with the multi stage fracing operations where there are many frac pumps working collectively . Supplying frac sand for the frac pumps requires even more area so the bulk sand transports can arrive and 'Wait' their turn to UNload into the Sandmaster storage trucks . If large scale fracing was scaled back smaller well pads would begin to become the norm . Oil companies will cut back their site preparation budgets when ever possible . , fordy


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## Glade Runner (Aug 1, 2013)

fordy said:


> ...............I'd like to make a couple of simple observations......(1)the road built to a pad for one well is the same size they'd build to a pad for 20 wells. I don't discern any significant difference !
> ...............(2)The biggest reason for the building much larger multi well pads , is to accommodate all the equipment associated with the multi stage fracing operations where there are many frac pumps working collectively . Supplying frac sand for the frac pumps requires even more area so the bulk sand transports can arrive and 'Wait' their turn to UNload into the Sandmaster storage trucks . If large scale fracing was scaled back smaller well pads would begin to become the norm . Oil companies will cut back their site preparation budgets when ever possible . , fordy


The biggest reason for building multi-well pads is to REDUCE footprint and impact. You move all of the equipment one time and frac multiple wells which is a lot less messy that building individual pads for each well. It also allows for 24 hour a day operation which is a whole lot more efficient and gets the operation out of the area quicker. It's a real win win but the gloom mongers will never see it.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

A few more comments. Utica shale leases are generally offering payments in lieu of free gas - the pressures are much higher than shallower wells.

Glade Runner, what we are seeing in our area is that not all the wells on a pad are necessarily being drilled and fracked at the same time. Chesapeake has been trying to get landowners to agree to larger drilling units (1280 acres) which allows them to hold more land from a single well. They are trying to avoid lease expirations or paying for lease extensions. They go back later and fill in the additional wells on a pad. Also, they are using different rigs for the verticals and the horizontals. It is a pretty complex process. Also, they couldn't all the fracking equipment on a 5 acre pad to frack 8 wells at the same time. That's begging the point that the fracking is done in stages.

Mike


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## whipsaw (Jan 1, 2014)

okiemudman said:


> I suppose all you folks that are dead set against fracking do not use any petroleum products or anything that is made from petroleum.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Homesteading Today


With a name like "okiemudman" I don't suppose drilling and fracking would be in your own personal financial interests, would it? With all due respect, I'd no more listen to you on the safety of fracking than I would a vegan on egregious animal rights abuses. What's that old saying about not being able to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon him not understanding it? :whistlin:


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## KathleenElsie (Sep 28, 2013)

In the interest of honesty: there are more then just the interest of the oil/gas people and the rights of the people that have wells on their land.

The people that live on the roads leading to and from the drill sites, the VFD's, the rents for locals that are now sky high and the 24/7 noise.

1 well site along a one lane road is inconvenient. 7 well sites on that same road is a disaster area. 

My road is 1.5 lanes wide. For the first two well sites this road was sometimes blocked due to the truck traffic. When they started the other five we are blocked more times then I can count. Two flag men let us in and out of our driveways and sometimes the school busses, mail delivery and garbage delivery does not get to us for days.

I want them to drill and make our country free of Arab oil. I support the Keystone pipe line. All I would like is for someone to talk to us and let us know when the traffic is going to be heavy.

God Bless America


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## Pugnacious (May 17, 2012)

How do the kids do sitting on busses for days!? 

Sent from my C811 4G using Tapatalk


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

I have no idea how this thread took such a turn but I sure have learned a lot from everyone.

I heard a radio program on NPR about some of the concerns with fracking....the area was dealing with horrendous poverty. People admitted for them, "it was the lessor of two evils". One woman was upset with the entire situation, yet her adult son had a job driving a truck as a result of fracking in the area.

The noise 24/7 was an issue. Places used to store the run off (?) had concerns. On and on...

For me, in a perfect world, I would live off grid. Maybe one family have a vehicle for errands and emergencies. I lived that way for awhile when I was young. 

But, until the day comes ( if it ever does ) I can live and thrive similar to the Amish I am one of the petroleum users. I can only try my best to cut back as much as I can at this point in my life. 

By the way...still looking for a nice homestead. I have a year to identify and buy. I never dreamed it would be so complicated. Mineral rights, good soil, good well water...enough land for three small homes, NICE home for me ( the boys can fix their own  ). On and on....but I keep looking at land and farm . com and United Country.

Though I loved the realtor I was with in Ky. they did not cross show with other United Country realtors, etc.


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## whipsaw (Jan 1, 2014)

KentuckyDreamer said:


> I have no idea how this thread took such a turn but I sure have learned a lot from everyone.
> 
> I heard a radio program on NPR about some of the concerns with fracking....the area was dealing with horrendous poverty. People admitted for them, "it was the lessor of two evils". One woman was upset with the entire situation, yet her adult son had a job driving a truck as a result of fracking in the area.
> 
> ...



I looked for land for a "homestead" for years, finally found something which fit my criteria, bought it, yet now realize there really is no freedom as the tax man comes calling for more each year, the local bureaucrats stop me at every turn with their hands out, and I am simply paying for the privilege of using land that really isn't mine at all. Am considering selling everything and going on the road with my 5th wheel and dog, burning fossil fuels, to maybe find a place which feels like home. I don't know if freedom really exists anymore.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Tax free living.. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slab_City


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## KathleenElsie (Sep 28, 2013)

Pugnacious said:


> How do the kids do sitting on busses for days!?
> 
> Sent from my C811 4G using Tapatalk


They really have a hard time sleeping on the bus. We have pack dogs to bring them food. They complain mostly of the lack of a bathroom.:hysterical:
 I did not check what I typed in a hurry. More coffee needed.


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## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

Hollowdweller said:


> We only own the mineral rights for half our property and we have a well and free gas on it.
> 
> 
> The free gas has been a godsend.
> ...


A horizontal well doesn't create any bigger of a footprint than a conventional one. They drill straight down, then out...the out part is far underground and creates no "footprint".


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## Jena (Aug 13, 2003)

Mike in Ohio said:


> A few more comments. Utica shale leases are generally offering payments in lieu of free gas - the pressures are much higher than shallower wells.
> 
> Glade Runner, what we are seeing in our area is that not all the wells on a pad are necessarily being drilled and fracked at the same time. Chesapeake has been trying to get landowners to agree to larger drilling units (1280 acres) which allows them to hold more land from a single well. They are trying to avoid lease expirations or paying for lease extensions. They go back later and fill in the additional wells on a pad. Also, they are using different rigs for the verticals and the horizontals. It is a pretty complex process. Also, they couldn't all the fracking equipment on a 5 acre pad to frack 8 wells at the same time. That's begging the point that the fracking is done in stages.
> 
> Mike


I am working for a subsidiary of Chesapeake. What they sometimes do is pre-spud the wells to stay within the terms of the lease. They use a smaller spud rig to drill the first few hundred feet of the well. Then we come back with the bigger rig and finish the drilling. I don't know the legalities, but I think they have to start drilling within a specific time to preserve the lease. It also saves down time with the big drilling rigs because we don't have to stop and wait for surface casing, it is already done when we get here.

We have some of the most state of the art rigs working in Ohio and I am not familiar with them, but this was the process in parts of OK and also here in Wyoming where I am currently working.


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## whipsaw (Jan 1, 2014)

lorichristie said:


> It really depends on where you live as to whether mineral rights commonly are included with the Bundle of Rights, when you purchase a property. DH and I have purchased 3 properties with all of them including mineral rights (during the last ten years). When I met him, ten years ago, he had a property without the mineral rights. We are currently looking for land and almost all the properties we have seen do include the mineral rights, thankfully. Here it isn't that hard to find properties including the full Bundle of Rights. If I were elsewhere, I wouldn't buy a property without it including the mineral rights...


You must be in Oregon? Because here in WA, very few properties still have mineral rights in place. I don't have mineral rights, but there's zero chance anybody is going to do anything with my land. It's small acreage, it's near the Puget Sound with strict environmental controls, and there's nothing of value that they'd want. Before I bought it I was concerned about the mineral rights, but then I found that the mineral rights for pretty much the entire county were sold off in the 1800's and early 1900's to the railroad.


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