# Deworming your Goats: natural remedy



## flashtoonz (Nov 13, 2009)

Just wondering if anyone has any tips or natural remedies for de-worming your goats? Came across this lady who uses a natural hedge or plant called Mugwort that her goats nibble on. She says it works on cows too.

http://www.ecofilms.com.au/?p=320

Where do you get Mugwort from?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

This type of thread always opens a HUGE controversy.

For those of us who live in the warm and humid south, these just don't work.


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## Bear44 (Jan 9, 2008)

I use a herbal wormer we get through hoeggers goat supply,plus I give pine branches,and safe guard worm block and we never have much of a problem.we stay away from cemicals as much as we can.I live in pa so this might make a difference.:rock:


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Here is a description of Mugwort - along with other names: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g2603/is_0005/ai_2603000533/


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Fecal first to find out what worms you have in your area, I wouldn't have a safeguard goat block out for my goats if I didn't have worms that safeguard kills, because it's too much chemical. It's fine to find alternatives but you have to make sure the alternatives work, guessing is expensive if it doesn't in lost milk, meat or kids. Vicki


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## steff bugielski (Nov 10, 2003)

I use Molly's Herbal wormer. I love it. It has kept my goats' worm load extremely low for years. The cost is just about the same as chemicals. The biggest downfall is you give it weekly but now it is second nature. I started with goats that had been just wormed and gave them the herbs weekly after that. 
I have had fecals done on some here and there , if their eyelids seemed to be pale or if their coats seemed rough. Only one or two ever came back with a heavy worm load.
I would much rather treat one or two that need it than the whole herd on a regular basis. 
I also like that there is now milk with holding time for the herbs. Some of those chemical wormers recommend 56 days of milk with holding. My vet advises following those recommendations , so I would loose a ton of milk. Not worth it to me.
Besides the goats look great and milk great. What more could I ask for.


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

The only reason there is no withholding time on herbs is that no studies have been done for residues in goat milk. No big financial incentive there since you cannot patent plants. There will still be residues in milk from herbs and the only reason this is ok with people is that they do not know the effects of herbal residues in milk or they assume they are benign and they assume they know that the effects of the chemical wormer residues are bad. 

Waiting until a goat has pale eyelids is using her body condition and your feed dollar to raise a huge population of parasites. The animal is anemic by then -pale eyes equals blood loss-and will take a lot of support and extra nutrition to get back to optimum health not just de-worming. Famacha is great for 3rd world countries where chemicals are out of range of livestock owners purses but letting a goat host a lot of parasites is never a good idea when you can avoid this by doing regular fecal samples regardless of what you use to rid yourself of them.

B~


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Briza said:


> The only reason there is no withholding time on herbs is that no studies have been done for residues in goat milk. No big financial incentive there since you cannot patent plants. There will still be residues in milk from herbs and the only reason this is ok with people is that they do not know the effects of herbal residues in milk or they assume they are benign and they assume they know that the effects of the chemical wormer residues are bad.
> 
> Waiting until a goat has pale eyelids is using her body condition and your feed dollar to raise a huge population of parasites. The animal is anemic by then -pale eyes equals blood loss-and will take a lot of support and extra nutrition to get back to optimum health not just de-worming. Famacha is great for 3rd world countries where chemicals are out of range of livestock owners purses but letting a goat host a lot of parasites is never a good idea when you can avoid this by doing regular fecal samples regardless of what you use to rid yourself of them.
> 
> B~


I agree.  I might use famancha if I had a meat herd.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Also winter worms don't cause anemia, they aren't blood sucking. So the loss from cool weather bankrupt worms is meat and milk and condition of your does and her kids.

So when you do have heavy burdens do you use chemicals then? How do you know your weather is not the reason you don't have worms and not the use of the herbal wormer? 

I wormed this year the day my does kidded and the weekend before breeding, they will get one more treatment worming at 150 days bred, that is considerably less chemical than bi monthly herbs that you purchase that you really have no idea of the potency or what is in each new batch. Glad to see you fecal sampling though.

Also lets make sure since it's november that herbal wormers also contain abortives like wormwood in them, not sure it's something I would be feeding my bred does. Vicki


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Epazote!
I grew it from seed as an exotic Mexican herb.
Imagine my surprise when I found that it already grew in my fields!
I've gotten hay from all over creation and the seeds must have been in there!
It's touted as wormer.
I found that I did not care for it at all as a cooking herb, but the goats just love it!
I can't say for sure, but my goats always have had very little problems with parasite loads.

I agree with Vickie on the wormwood, that's a worrisome plant!


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## AnnaS (Nov 29, 2003)

Artemisia/wormwood is part of my native prairie pasture. The does always have access to it, so they could self-medicate if they wanted to. They still get internal parasites, so I use a chemical wormer.

My advice for natural control of worms- find out what worms your herd has, learn the life cycle, and identify ways to break that cycle. A lot of goat parasites rely on fecal-oral transmission, so make sure that dirty hooves don't get into the grain pans or hay feeders. Naturally, goats browse above their heads & break the cycle this way. A worm larvae can climb a blade of grass, but not a tree.


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## steff bugielski (Nov 10, 2003)

As for pale eyelids, I check them every week when I worm. i do not wait till completely pale but I can see the slight difference. 

As for the herbs not being tested. Garlic DOES not have a with holding time nor does Fenugreek, These are herbs we eat ourselves.

Wormwood does have to be given with care and it is not given to pregnant does or the milk sold to folks who are pregnant.

Just because we do things different does not mean we have not done the research.


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

Steff- I don't do any meds I don't have to but after pulling local herds out of serious health decline who have opted for natural dewormers I know for a physical visual proven fact that they do not work in this region. I do fecals for people who don't want to buy a scope and learn how. I do not doubt you have read up on these products but the honest truth is there are no science based university controlled studies for herbal residues in the milk. It is great that you can get away with this because of your climate and soil type. I have a friend in Idaho that has never wormed her goats! Dry- cold-alkaline-browse only no wet pastures with lush grass and she has never wormed in years on the same farm. We just have to do what works for our region and feeding situation.
B~


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Herbal residues in milk? How many herbs are goats eating in the pasture or baled up in hay?


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## elisabeth (Nov 15, 2009)

We've been using mugwort as a natural vermifuge for our livestock for well over ten years now and have not had any issues with falling birthrates as one reader suggests. We live in a sub tropical and humid environment.

www.permacultureproduce.com.au


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## samm (Dec 6, 2008)

i bought some of the herbal wormer from hoeggers, it didnt do the job, so i went back to safegaurd.

samm


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## madness (Dec 6, 2006)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> So when you do have heavy burdens do you use chemicals then? How do you know your weather is not the reason you don't have worms and not the use of the herbal wormer?


The breeder we got our goats from uses herbals and chemical when needed so we decided to try out the same. So far (one year), no issues at all. In fact, I was so paranoid that I wasn't doing the fecals right that I've taken several samples to the vet. She agreed - clean as a whistle. This summer was the end of 18 months of severe drought. So I really have no reliable data to say what the low (actually nonexistent) worm load was from.

We are now in a wet fall but there have been plenty of warm days. The fecals are now actually coming back with eggs in them but so far nothing to warrant any alarm. Still giving the herbals...still have ivermec on hand!


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

You do kinda get a free ride for a while when goats are new to your property. I really haven't had problems yet, after 3 years, mainly just newcomers I have to worm. We have horses and cattle roaming the same fields the goats eat from, so they help vacuum up worms.


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

Madness~If you have eggs in your fecals you need to ID them to species and treat because you may be overwintering a whole population of blood suckers that will explode in the spring or just post kidding. Don't let them rob you of your feed dollar or that nice little padding of fat you worked so hard to get on your does so they can milk well next time around. Your drought helped you- the larvae cannot live long in that but obviously someone is laying eggs and there is nothing herbal that will kill HC! You may drive out a few tapes with it (not kill mind you- just make things uncomfortable so they drop in your pastures and encapsulate to wait for someone to snarf them up.) This cool down coming up would be a good time to get rid of anything resident because stages that can live outside the host will be less likely to survive in your pastures.
B~


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## madness (Dec 6, 2006)

Briza, I have identified the eggs - they are strongyloides papillosus, had it verified by the vet. I don't recall the EPG off the top of my head but the vet said it wasn't a big deal. We are keeping a close eye.


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## steff bugielski (Nov 10, 2003)

That's great Madness. I figure if one were to use the herbs and do fecals then they only need to use chemicals when necessary.


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## Goatfan27 (Feb 19, 2016)

Try any kind of evergreen leaves. At just the smell of it the worms normally leave... Just give them your used Christmas trees!!! Or if your goats will eat it peppermint leaves and oil work pretty well. DON'T USE SAFEGAURD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It made my goats milk have blood in it and she was sick from it for 4 days after I gave it to her. I live in the humid part of VA and she only 2 times have I had to deworm my goat.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Goatfan27 said:


> Try any kind of evergreen leaves. At just the smell of it the worms normally leave... Just give them your used Christmas trees!!! Or if your goats will eat it peppermint leaves and oil work pretty well. DON'T USE SAFEGAURD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It made my goats milk have blood in it and she was sick from it for 4 days after I gave it to her. I live in the humid part of VA and she only 2 times have I had to deworm my goat.



This is a very old thread. And evergreens are not proven to be an effective dewormer, nor are peppermint/oil. Safeguard use likely did not lead to blood in the milk. It is generally not an excellent choice for many types of worms, but it is usually pretty safe. 

Deciding to deworm should always be based on clinical signs and regular fecal egg counts. If your herd is very small and/or very new, it's common to be able to get away without deworming for a while due to very low pasture worm loads.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

Goatfan27 said:


> Try any kind of evergreen leaves. At just the smell of it the worms normally leave... Just give them your used Christmas trees!!! Or if your goats will eat it peppermint leaves and oil work pretty well. DON'T USE SAFEGAURD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It made my goats milk have blood in it and she was sick from it for 4 days after I gave it to her. I live in the humid part of VA and she only 2 times have I had to deworm my goat.


Another classic example of how the "all natural" crowd doesn't know what the heck they are talking about, but feels free to pass along false and dangerous information. As long as it grows in the soil and doesn't come from a bottle, a package or an evil drug manufacturer it must be OK, right?. _Any_ evergreen leaves? Really? Holly OK? Rhododendron? How about Yew? Should we be feeding Yews to our goats? One thing is for sure, if we do that it probably will kill the worms.... and maybe a little bit more than we were expecting. The naturopaths should get used to the idea that dewormers are not "chemicals", they are medicines. I know, opening a bottle of ivermectin just doesn't have the same cachet as that magic pixie dust they use in their voodoo rituals, but what works, works, what doesn't, doesn't.


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## hihobaron (Oct 5, 2015)

Hello All
I was involved in a research project 10+ years ago working with the Wisconsin School Of Veterinarian Medicine. To Research the effectiveness of Dimatiouse Earth (DE) as a worming agent. My part was managing a herd of 24 horses on just DE for Parasite control for a year.
Fecal Sample every 30 days , done at the UW labs.
Results:With in 30 days of adding DE to a twice a day feed schedule (With their Grain) to keep the dust down (DE is Like Talcum powder) There were NO internal parasites to be found in fecal samples. Rate of feeding was 2 TSP X 2 with each feeding.
We even did some trials using DE on "External" parasites, mites and lice primary.
A small amount was just groomed into their hair like what is done with normal brushing.
We could not determine if DE had an effect on ticks.
No, effect on biting flies,skeeters. Still need Repellent application there.
In the case like goats and sheep that are susceptible to Lung Worms or other blood born parasites you still need to use a chemical control agent like Ivermectian based products.
Side Note: DE: as a feed through dose stay "Active to a certain extent" in manure and there was from "empiric observation" a noteworthy reduction in the fly population around livestock areas and barns.
In my own horse they take DE every day, and I use a chemical wormer twice a year. 
In the fall after a couple good hard frost, and again in the spring but before things warm up to much.
My goats here are on the same program, and from fecals have no worms.
BTY: I have Pack Goats "wethers"
But there is no reason DE can not be used in meat or milk goats, it totally non-chemical.
Happy Trails
hihobaron Pete and Sam


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

By the time you get pale eyelids, you have a worm load and likely internal damage.
Fecal can show worm eggs, if the worms are passing eggs, they won't while eating up the heart, liver and other organs. You can have a negative fecal while having a serious infestation. Talk to a Vet you trust.
DE works on cabbage worms on cabbage.


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## Goatfan27 (Feb 19, 2016)

Agriculture said:


> Another classic example of how the "all natural" crowd doesn't know what the heck they are talking about, but feels free to pass along false and dangerous information. As long as it grows in the soil and doesn't come from a bottle, a package or an evil drug manufacturer it must be OK, right?. _Any_ evergreen leaves? Really? Holly OK? Rhododendron? How about Yew? Should we be feeding Yews to our goats? One thing is for sure, if we do that it probably will kill the worms.... and maybe a little bit more than we were expecting. The naturopaths should get used to the idea that dewormers are not "chemicals", they are medicines. I know, opening a bottle of ivermectin just doesn't have the same cachet as that magic pixie dust they use in their voodoo rituals, but what works, works, what doesn't, doesn't.


I AM SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You better watch how you say things, it can get you someplace bad one day.:nono: Even if you are on the web, you should not be like that. Imagine you were me, how would you feel?:sob::sob::sob::sob::sob: And no, I dont think there has been any tests, but bugs and worms hate strong smells so it has a likelihood of working. And unless you can find me an organic _CHEMICAL_ wormer, I am not going to use safegaurd or any other.


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## Goatfan27 (Feb 19, 2016)

Thank for your advice, Mygoat. I have 4 goats for a year. You are right, they are not proven, but they have a strong smell and bugs and worms hate that. I am not actually sure it was safegaurd that made the blood in the milk but she did get sick right after she got that wormer. Thanks again.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Goatfan27 said:


> Thank for your advice, Mygoat. I have 4 goats for a year. You are right, they are not proven, but they have a strong smell and bugs and worms hate that. I am not actually sure it was safegaurd that made the blood in the milk but she did get sick right after she got that wormer. Thanks again.


Worms have no sense of smell

If you don't use proven chemical wormers odds are you will have parasite problems before very long


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## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

hihobaron said:


> Hello All
> I was involved in a research project 10+ years ago working with the Wisconsin School Of Veterinarian Medicine. To Research the effectiveness of Dimatiouse Earth (DE) as a worming agent. My part was managing a herd of 24 horses on just DE for Parasite control for a year.
> Fecal Sample every 30 days , done at the UW labs.
> Results:With in 30 days of adding DE to a twice a day feed schedule (With their Grain) to keep the dust down (DE is Like Talcum powder) There were NO internal parasites to be found in fecal samples. Rate of feeding was 2 TSP X 2 with each feeding.


Thank you for sharing your info. Do you have a link to the study? I am interested in the size of the study, including info on how many groups were included, size of control group, methods used to administer and test, how the horses were divided into the various groups. Thanks!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

hihobaron said:


> Hello All
> I was involved in a research project 10+ years ago working with the Wisconsin School Of Veterinarian Medicine. To Research the effectiveness of Dimatiouse Earth (DE) as a worming agent. My part was managing a herd of 24 horses on just DE for Parasite control for a year.
> Fecal Sample every 30 days , done at the UW labs.
> Results:With in 30 days of adding DE to a twice a day feed schedule (With their Grain) to keep the dust down (DE is Like Talcum powder) There were NO internal parasites to be found in fecal samples. Rate of feeding was 2 TSP X 2 with each feeding.
> ...


Are there any links to the actual data?
What were the worm loads *before* the DE started?


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Goatfan27 said:


> I AM SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You better watch how you say things, it can get you someplace bad one day.:nono: Even if you are on the web, you should not be like that. Imagine you were me, how would you feel?:sob::sob::sob::sob::sob: And no, I dont think there has been any tests, but bugs and worms hate strong smells so it has a likelihood of working. And unless you can find me an organic _CHEMICAL_ wormer, I am not going to use safegaurd or any other.





Goatfan27 said:


> Thank for your advice, Mygoat. I have 4 goats for a year. You are right, they are not proven, but they have a strong smell and bugs and worms hate that. I am not actually sure it was safegaurd that made the blood in the milk but she did get sick right after she got that wormer. Thanks again.


Ivermectin is a naturally derived anthelmintic. Many are derived from ivermectin or other 'naturally' formed chemicals found in plants or animals. A few are approved for use in organic farming. Due to resistance or in hopes of creating a 'safer' anthelmintic, many are modified slightly to increase efficacy or increase safety. They are then highly tested for safety and efficacy and PROVEN to be effective. That is not to say that they are 100% safe all the time, but they are far more safe than guessing, hoping, and wishing. Being informed about them and their use is very important. At the end of the day, they are simply a TOOL for livestock management. 

A 'strong smell' alone means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for parasite control. These are parasites that live in a RUMEN - have you ever smelled rumen contents??  There are some herbal routes for parasite control - we can debate the efficiacy and usefulness elsewhere - but peppermint and pine are NOT likely to be useful at all especially not alone and especially not in doses that are likely to not cause other problems in a rumen environment (dysbiosis, tissue irritation, or even exposure to high levels of toxic or teratogenic chemicals). Many of the common herbal treatment or feeds that HAVE been implicated as having a potential role in parasite management (tannins, etc) don't have strong smells. 

I strongly, strongly suggest that you use dewormers that are proven to be SAFE and EFFECTIVE in the face of actual parasite problems. If you choose 'organic' or herbal (which, by the way, if they ARE effective, it is because of their CHEMICAL content - EVERYTHING is made of chemicals.  PLEASE do follow up fecals to make SURE it's working. Also use whatever you're using with a good understanding of PARASITE LIFE CYCLES. Deworming with ANY method may *seem* to take care of your problem but if you don't realize that only adults are affected by the dewormer you chose to use, you'll be awful suprised in a few weeks when that animal is once again plagued by a heavy load due to the younger parasites maturing. Other common problems are improper dosing or choosing an improper dewormer - not all dewormers will work against all types. Or re-exposure - NO dewormer is going to be adequate to fix parasite problems in the face of extreme pasture loads, poor/dirty feeding methods etc.

Even on organic farms, you are MANDATED to use ADEQUATE drugs to prevent animal disease and suffering. Manage to prevent problems, ID Problems early and attempt 'organic' treatments if possible, then treat with appropriate treatments without delay, if necessary. You can't choose to not treat with an effective method when animal welfare and health is at risk. Some are allowed within organic regulations under direction of a veterinarian. Depending on the animal and class, it may still be part of an organic production farm (breeding stock etc). 

To my understanding, you have a new and small herd so you may not have had the 'joy' of seeing parasites yet, so you may be lulled into a false sense of security. (happens to a LOT of people starting out!)


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## Goatfan27 (Feb 19, 2016)

well, maybe it is not the smell but look on Creative Country Life.com, GoatProBorads.com, moon meadow.WordPress, the goat spot.com, BackYardHerds.com and even USA today says that pines deworm goats. Sorry if I confused you when i said "Evergreens",(that was actually me being pretty stupid). YES I have seen worms kill goats before, I have only owned goats for this long but I am growing up with them( I am 11 years old) AND we have someone that lives on our property with us and they own almost 50 goats. I've got plenty experience. And as for peppermint oil, look at thehealthyhomeeconomist.com and too way many to list. There, see? I know what I am talking about. I don't have to be old(er) to be experienced.


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## Goatfan27 (Feb 19, 2016)

By the way, how much do fecials cost? I only have about 25 dollars. Because when you are eleven, you dont get much income.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I started raising goats when I was 11. I'm now 26 and in vet school. But the more you learn, you'll realize there's a whole lot you DON'T know - and that is a beautiful thing.  I will commend you for being very well spoken and clearly interested in taking good care of your livestock. 

Be skeptical and keep asking questions. Your references exist, but are mostly opinion or very biased and are NOT to be considered as definitive science.  

There are definitely different browse options and herbal treatments that may be useful in parasite management. But to completely swear off of chemical dewormers or to blindly expect the herbal or browse to work without confirming that they ARE working, is not a good idea for continued success especially as your herd grows. What works now, may not work next year when your herd is larger, or if their physiologic status is different, or if you buy new goats and introduce new parasites etc. Everything is constantly changing and part of good management is trying to take notice of these dynamic changes that can have large impacts on other aspects of management. It can be tricky.  

You can have fecals done at http://midamericaagresearch.net/ for 5.00 each, plus shipping. You will only get fecal egg counts with this, so you will need a thorough understanding of what parasites are pathogenic or levels that are worrisome, what this means with your clinical signs/animal health in the herd, age of the animals etc, and in what context the fecals were taken, and parasite life cycles to help determine if you need to treat or change management. Fecals are interpretative as are all test results a the end of the day.  In emergencies, a local veterinarian will do them faster and may offer more insight into treatment - but keep in mind many vets are not small ruminant professionals.


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## Goatfan27 (Feb 19, 2016)

I am sure it works good for you, and I will defiantly get a fecal done. But I am stubborn and I dont lie to my Goat Herd share costumers, so I _will_ do my 
deworming the way I have been. Besides, I CAN'T use the chemicaly stuff because it has wormwood, witch is not for use on lactating or pregnant animals. 4 of my goats are pregnant, one is in milk. You seem to know a lot about goaty science, so you would know.

I trust people,(the people with the opinions) so if it is working for them, why wont it work for me? And to see for myself if it is working, I will fecal done.
My goats roam over about 72 acres and eat New Country Organics goat feed. And when they come in their stalls at night they get fresh water and have hay available to them 24/7. To me, they should only have very few worms and the little bit they have can be eliminated with herbs, pine and essential oils. And if necessary DE. (witch has been tested and it does remove some worms).


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I trust people,(the people with the opinions) so *if it is working for them*, why wont it work for me?


People will often say things work when they really don't.
Often there is no problem to begin with, or sometimes they aren't really checking fecals to make sure there isn't an overload of parasites.

There are no *scientific studies* that have shown the "home remedies" to work, no matter how many people on the internet say they do


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## punchiepal (Oct 11, 2008)

If you have access to a microscope you can learn to do fecals. Some even use a cheap one from Target. This way you learn a new skill, can do them any time, and are only out the $$ once.


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## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

Goatfan27 said:


> By the way, how much do fecials cost? I only have about 25 dollars. Because when you are eleven, you dont get much income.


Talk to your science teacher. He or she may be interested in doing it with you as a project to learn how to do it - or even get the class involved. The science lab at your school is likely to have the equipment needed.

Remember, when collecting a sample, don't collect it off the ground - even if you just saw the goat drop it - because it can become contaminated from contact with the ground. Instead, take a clean disposable glove (careful not to touch anything after you put it on) and collect the sample yourself. A few pellets are all you need. When you withdraw your finger, ball into a fist to contain the pellets, then turn the glove inside out, then tie it off. The glove is now a little bag to carry and contain the sample. Label it with the goat name or number if you are doing multiple samples. The fresher the sample is, the better.


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## boerboy (Oct 7, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Are there any links to the actual data?
> What were the worm loads *before* the DE started?


This is the third time I am running in to DE. And I don't see anyone opposing or supporting it. I would like to learn more about this.

I personally used it to treat my hens with great results.


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## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

boerboy said:


> This is the third time I am running in to DE. And I don't see anyone opposing or supporting it. I would like to learn more about this.
> 
> I personally used it to treat my hens with great results.


My understanding has always been that DE is inactive when wet. However I like to remain open-minded, which is why I asked the person who posted this info to provide more data. If there is actual data that includes before and after samples, protocols and solid scientific theory (several groups, control group, random selection of animals, age, genders.....etc. etc.) and the data points to DE actually making a difference, I will be happy to change my thinking about the "inactive when wet". However the source I read that stated that (several years ago and no, I don't have a link after all this time) gave reasons that - at the time - made sense, and since then I have been provided no evidence to refute it.

*IF* DE actually is effective - and there is science to support that it is - it would be a great alternative as it is cheap, readily available and relatively easy to administer.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

boerboy said:


> This is the third time I am running in to DE. And I don't see anyone opposing or supporting it. I would like to learn more about this.
> 
> I personally used it to treat my hens with great results.


DE is powdered rock that is about 90% Silica with a little Alumina, Iron and Clay.

It's a fairly decent mechanical insecticide that kills by cutting then dehydrating, but has never been *proven* effective on internal parasites since it only works when dry.

I've had "great results" with my chickens never worming them

Most of what you hear on the internet about the *benefits* of DE is not true at all
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth

http://extension.umd.edu/learn/diatomaceous-earth-de



> Is it an effective natural anthelmintic for sheep and goats?
> A review of the scientific literature
> 
> Diatomaceous earth (DE) (link is external), the skeletal remains of single-cell algae, is often touted as an effective and alternative anthelmintic for sheep, goats, and other livestock. DE is said to kill worms by slashing them with its blade-like surfaces. However, there is a lack of scientific evidence to support its use


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## boerboy (Oct 7, 2012)

My hens laid eggs that had dirt (like poop) stuck to it. I googled and found that it could be due to worms. Found about DE and administered it. In four days they started laying clean eggs. After 10 days again dirty eggs. Repeated DE and in couple of days clean eggs. Ever since it is clean eggs. I still have lot of DE left. Stored it.


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## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

boerboy said:


> My hens laid eggs that had dirt (like poop) stuck to it. I googled and found that it could be due to worms. Found about DE and administered it. In four days they started laying clean eggs. After 10 days again dirty eggs. Repeated DE and in couple of days clean eggs. Ever since it is clean eggs. I still have lot of DE left. Stored it.


This is the sort of anecdotal information that gets passed around as fact. A good quote to remember is "correlation does not equal causation". Just because two things happen side by side does not mean one caused the other. Every person who has ever had a drink of water has eventually died but that doesn't mean drinking water causes death!!!

My spouse and I are both cynical people who, when things seem to be conveniently related, always ask "what else could have caused that?" "what else was happening at the same time" and questions along those lines. 

One incident as described above does not prove that the DE had anything whatsoever to do with the results. All eggs are laid clean. Due to the moisture on them at the time they are laid, they easily pick up dirt. Keeping clean bedding in the nest boxes helps keep them clean until they are dry enough they don't so easily pick up dirt. I have never heard of worms causing the eggs to attract more dirt. What type of worms did your google research suggest would lead to dirty eggs?


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## boerboy (Oct 7, 2012)

Here it is 
http://beckyshomestead.com/worming-chickens-naturally

It could be coincidence. 
I am not arguing


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted by boerboy View Post
> My hens laid eggs that had dirt (*like poop*) stuck to it. I googled and found that it could be due to worms. Found about DE and administered it. In four days they started laying clean eggs. After 10 days again dirty eggs. Repeated DE and in couple of days clean eggs. Ever since it is clean eggs. I still have lot of DE left. Stored it.


If it had dirt "like poop" it probably was poop.
It happens sometimes and has nothing to do with worms

No matter what people say about DE, it's still nothing but powdered rock that is chemically identical to sand. 

It's not magic fairy dust


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> If it had dirt "like poop" it probably was poop.
> It happens sometimes and has nothing to do with worms
> 
> No matter what people say about DE, it's still nothing but powdered rock that is chemically identical to sand.
> ...


CHEMICALLY identical you say?! CHEMICALLY? There are CHEMICALS in DE??! Now you just went ahead and ruined my day. I take it myself since it prevents and cures everything from cancer to jock itch. Now I'm just going to have to go flush it out with a big glass of apple cider vinegar "with the mother". Don't you dare say nothin' about no chemicals in that. I don't want to hear it.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Agriculture said:


> CHEMICALLY identical you say?! CHEMICALLY? There are CHEMICALS in DE??! Now you just went ahead and ruined my day. I take it myself since it prevents and cures everything from cancer to jock itch. Now I'm just going to have to go flush it out with a big glass of apple cider vinegar "with the mother". Don't you dare say nothin' about no chemicals in that. I don't want to hear it.


 Yup, DE is 100% chemicals.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I've even tried to use DE externally and it never worked. 

One thing about DE is that it IS really easy to inhale pretty darn deep into your lungs and can cause mechanical inhalation injury. If you apply it, be careful and try not to breathe the powder. 

As for internally, I've always heard it's a load of hoey too. Most research papers show it doesn't work - but you can usually find one or two 'interest' papers that show further research necessary and those seem to be the ones quoted most often.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

What? They still haven't banned that dihydrogen monoxide crap! Time for me to write more letters. This is an outrage. Just last week it killed an ice fisherman near me. Poor guy, minding his own business gets inundated by this horrible chemical, and bang, gone. I hear all the meth cookers and marijuana growers are using it too. They found traces of it in the blood of the Kalamazoo shooter. Nasty stuff.

Another little known fact about DE: years ago some commercial chinchilla breeders decided to try it as a cheaper substitute for the clay based dusting powder that they use for the animals to bathe in to keep their coats in condition. Turns out that the sharp little edges that legend claims lacerate and kill internal parasites did do quite a job microscopically abrading and cutting through a lot of the hair strands, making the pelts worthless. But I'm sure that they don't use it any more, because of all of the chemicals in it.


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## Goatfan27 (Feb 19, 2016)

Do you mean I stick my hand in her behind? Or wait for her to pass some and catch it?


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Personally, I pick it up off the ground after they poo or catch it in an inverted baggie I have over my hand. Picking it off the ground won't contaminate it enough to make much of a difference. You can direct sample by inserting a few fingers into the rectum and removing some poo, but unless you're on time restraints you probably don't need to bother. Small herds work quite well to just stand and watch them as they eat their hay bale. Or, get them to stand up after lying down and MOST Of the time they'll poo upon standing.  

For bigger producers you can do pen sampling, which is picking up a few fresh samples from say, a kid rearing pen, and running a few representitive fecals to monitor what worms and approximate numbers. Of course, this only works with kid pens where all the kids are approximately the same age and on the same management, otherwise the information doesn't apply to everyone. Larger produers tend to group animals by age and class anyways for better management.


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## Goatfan27 (Feb 19, 2016)

Thanks. Will do. Also, do you know if they have discounts for a lot of goats? Like I said, our neighbors own exactly 61 goats, ( I just went out and counted) and if it wasn't that expensive, they might want to try.


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## Goatfan27 (Feb 19, 2016)

Goatfan27 said:


> well, maybe it is not the smell but look on Creative Country Life.com, GoatProBorads.com, moon meadow.WordPress, the goat spot.com, BackYardHerds.com and even USA today says that pines deworm goats. Sorry if I confused you when i said "Evergreens",(that was actually me being pretty stupid). YES I have seen worms kill goats before, I have only owned goats for this long but I am growing up with them( I am 11 years old) AND we have someone that lives on our property with us and they own almost 50 goats. I've got plenty experience. And as for peppermint oil, look at thehealthyhomeeconomist.com and too way many to list. There, see? I know what I am talking about. I don't have to be old(er) to be experienced.


I meant 50 adult goats. They have a lot that are about a week old.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Please talk to a Vet you trust about "alternative" wormers like pine needles, tobacco, cinnamon, garlic and DE, to name a few. Since I hate chemicals but love healthy animals, I prefer real, working wormers.
As Abraham Lincoln once said, "Don't believe everything you read on the internet."


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Remember as well that worms don't equal dead goats, or even poorly functioning ones. There are animals that can tolerate certain amounts of some parasites. People that adhere to overzealous chemical worming campaigns can unknowingly be doing vast genetic harm to their stock, and prolonging their dependence on ever harsher chemical worming campaigns. Another important thing to consider, is that feeding a good quality mineral, that is suited to your specific area, can vastly impact parasite sensitivity in your animals. 

It is good to keep an open mind, but sometimes people take an open mind to the point of having a hole in their head. Being closed minded never solves any problems, though. 
The thing to remember with goats, is that they have never been highly popular and profitable commercial livestock. So there isn't a ton of research out there in the first place, let alone research into alternative methods. The meat goats have caused goat medicine to grow by leaps and bounds in the last twenty years. I remember when everything you could get for a goat was extra label, meaning not approved for goats, because it was not really studied. It is still this way a lot. So it comes down to your relationship with your animals and your vet, you will have to fly by the seat of your pants on a lot of goat matters. And don't expect any random vet to know anything at all about goats, it's not something they spend a lot of time learning in vet school, and some of the vet schools don't know much about goats to begin with, because there simply hasn't been a huge economic push to pursue that kind of research.


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## Sumatra (Dec 5, 2013)

The alternative health section on HT maintains a rule against debating the effectiveness of medicines, but rather just sharing positive information. If only the same standard were held on topics of natural remedies for animals... We might actually get somewhere.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Sumatra said:


> The alternative health section on HT maintains a rule against debating the effectiveness of medicines, but rather just sharing positive information. If only the same standard were held on topics of natural remedies for animals... We might actually get somewhere.


Not sure I understand how that works. You mean the myths get passed along but proof that they are myths get suppressed? 
Tobacco cures warts, garlic cures a cold, cloves cures AIDS, GMO's give rats tumors. Stuff like that? And it goes unchallenged? That creates progress or promotes wisdom? Do tell.

Would we be getting somewhere if my reply to a claim that DE kills internal animal parasites, that sand box sand is known to be twice as effective as DE? You want more unchecked baskets of nonsense? 

How about I keep my nose out of the Alternative Health section and you and Dr. Mercola stay out of the open discussion segments of HT. Deal?


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## Moboiku (Mar 7, 2014)

Sumatra said:


> The alternative health section on HT maintains a rule against debating the effectiveness of medicines, but rather just sharing positive information. If only the same standard were held on topics of natural remedies for animals... We might actually get somewhere.


I can't see the point. Why would I want to use anything unless I know its effective? How can I know it's effective unless the pros/cons are debated, or there is a documented study proving that it is? I would far rather hear something debated so I know what I'm getting into from any angle, than hear only positives, then have to find out the hard way that it doesn't work at all.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

Sumatra said:


> The alternative health section on HT maintains a rule against debating the effectiveness of medicines, but rather just sharing positive information. If only the same standard were held on topics of natural remedies for animals... We might actually get somewhere.


That is illogical. But then, so is much of the alternative medicine mindset.

It was a lovely day when I woke up this morning. The sky was a beautiful shade of kelly green, a sure sign that spring is on the way. What a pleasant sight.
Is that positive enough for you? Don't dare debate it, since there might be a rule that might hurt my feelings and invade my little internet safe zone. Honestly, is it any wonder why some alternative ideas face ridicule?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Sumatra said:


> The alternative health section on HT maintains a rule against debating the effectiveness of medicines, but rather just sharing positive information. If only the same standard were held on topics of natural remedies for animals... *We might actually get somewhere*.


More likely you'd end up with more sick/dead animals due to myths being passed along as fact. There is no realistic "positive" information about DE once you stop talking about killing some insects


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## JoannaCW (Nov 29, 2008)

I've found DE effective in dealing with my own worm issues. No, I can't 'prove' that it works, I just know that my symptoms clear up after I take it, and that's good enough for me. 

For my goats I'm more apt to use garlic, pine, birch and multiflora rose on a regular basis, Land of Havilah herbal wormer and extra garlic when their eyelid color, coats or droppings lead me to suspect a problem. No, I don't have proof that this works, but I have had healthy and fairly productive goats for 14 years. It helps that I live in the Northeast, where we have winter deep-freezes, and I have a very small goat herd rotating through several pastures. I'm not absolutely opposed in principle to non-herbal solutions. I gave penicillin when a goat got pneumonia. If I needed more aggressive wormers I'd be willing to use them, but I'd rather not get the big guns out before I need them.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I've found DE effective in dealing with my own worm issues. No, *I can't 'prove' that it works,* I just know that my symptoms clear up after I take it, and that's good enough for me.


Neither can scientists in laboratories.
There's a good reason for that


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## JoannaCW (Nov 29, 2008)

I think this is a basic temperamental issue where folks may have to agree to disagree. I am not convinced that everything which has been pronounced by an expert and backed by a study is true (given the many countervailing expert opinions and studies which are prevalent...) and I am not at all sure that every useful truth comes with expert attestation. I'm also not convinced that the same remedies work for all people, or all goats. At this point I prefer to learn from experience, my own and other people's. Your mileage may vary.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

JoannaCW said:


> I think this is a basic temperamental issue where folks may have to agree to disagree. I am not convinced that everything which has been pronounced by an expert and backed by a study is true (given the many countervailing expert opinions and studies which are prevalent...) and I am not at all sure that every useful truth comes with expert attestation. I'm also not convinced that the same remedies work for all people, or all goats. At this point I prefer to learn from experience, my own and other people's. Your mileage may vary.


If I say Snickers are the best candy bar and you say Reeses are the best, we can agree to disagree.

If I say the ocean is salty, the earth is mostly round, gravity exists and DE does not kill worms inside a mammal, those are not topics that we can settle by agreeing to disagree. I'd like you to learn from your experiences, like everyone did in the Dark Ages. But unlike the Dark Ages, I like to learn the real truth and cast off witches' spells, goblins and ridding animals of worms with tobacco, sawdust, garlic, cinnamon, DE or gnat wings.

Older animals tollerate a worm load better than young. Perhaps that was what you were experiencing?


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## Sumatra (Dec 5, 2013)

haypoint said:


> Not sure I understand how that works. You mean the myths get passed along but proof that they are myths get suppressed?
> Tobacco cures warts, garlic cures a cold, cloves cures AIDS, GMO's give rats tumors. Stuff like that? And it goes unchallenged? That crates progress or promotes wisdom? Do tell.
> 
> Would we be getting somewhere if my reply to a claim that DE kills internal animal parasites, that sand box sand is known to be twice as effective as DE? You want more unchecked baskets of nonsense?
> ...


Yes, and there are even threads about homeopathy! Can you believe it? Such ignorance! ound:

In all seriousness though, it works by allowing those who have experience with the remedy and recommendations to go unharrassed. Opposite arguments are of course shown. Positive information doesn't mean you have to agree with the premise of the OP. It means viewers can make their opinions based on those two points, rather than the vilification others receive here in the form of being compared to voodoo rituals and magic pixie dust! 

I won't agree on those cures, but I will answer that... I'm sure those statements sound unreasonable if you aren't involved in alternative health circles, but there is pretty much no inclination to lie by most people who've simply used it on their animals or themselves and found it to be effective. Furthermore, alternative health data gets to be tested, refined, studied, explored, and innovated by laypeople in a manner that is currently impossible to achieve within conventional medicine due to incessant laws, restrictions, bias, and often lack of funding. So in many ways, it gets to be far ahead of any current methods used today.

Whether you agree with the previous paragraph or not, which really is a tangent to the topic- no you would not get anywhere with a claim that sand box sand is twice as effective due to DE and play sand having completely different shapes. There is absolutely no logic behind it... much like the constant and really unconvincing statement that "There are no scientific studies that have shown DE to work."

In fact I'd go so far as to say the unchecked baskets of nonsense are not unsupported claims, but the sarcasm, comparison to dihydrogen monoxide, and other such absurd statements found here.

You do as you like, as I'm sure many others will. But yes I'll go, since it seems I've ruffled some feathers with this topic and don't want to get into an argument. This isn't GC.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

The homeocrapic crowd is always so quick to play the victim, yet they are just as willing to resort to using propaganda as anyone, using exaggerated terminology for modern medicines as "toxic chemicals", etc. If you want to use whatever your feelings tell you is good, no problem. Stay in your little internet safe zones and discuss it there, where opposite arguments are NOT tolerated BTW, but if you are going to discuss it in an open forum you are going to get all sides. Imagine that. If people want to seek out that kind of thing that is there choice, but don't recommend it to them and not expect those who know better not to speak up.

It seems to me that it is very typical and quite revealing that many of the homeocrapic crowd when faced with logic, facts or an argument that they can't or don't want to understand, just bury their head in the sand, sing "LA LA LA LA, I can't hear you", or resort to the ever helpful, "let's just agree to disagree".


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Using my Mod powers here. I don't think we're getting anywhere with this discussion anymore.


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