# Will family farms make a comeback?



## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

I was so shocked today to see Pres Bush announce that people need to start buying their food locally! Yes he really said that. Maybe there was a bit of wishful thinking on my part that made me misunderstand his statement. I recorded it so I'll have to go back and listen again.

IF he really said what I think he said, it's encouraging to hear that DC is actually encouraging people to buy locally produced products. I may build a little roadside stand next year.


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## stranger (Feb 24, 2008)

not it this area, most farms have been bought by what we call Fifth Avenue Farmers, they don't grow anything, just get in line for all the subsidies they can. A couple yrs ago there was a story on the news about the millionairs getting the free subsidies and it was going to be stopped, but they must have got it squashed.
about buying locally, the prices are for the city people and tourists comming thru, a local person ain't dumb enough to pay seven dollars for a doz ears of corn or three fifty for a cuke. I know one farmer that buys a load of pumkins from Pa. and puts a sign on them Organic grown locally and people pay the high just for the organic sign.


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## huzzyjr (Apr 21, 2005)

Yes, he really said to buy from you're local farmer.


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## farmwife (Jan 6, 2006)

I think so, because here in PA they are already doing it. However, the big shots don't want little farms, but big coperations.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

It's probably too late for a real comeback, but hopefully people will start to see that once all the small farms are gone, they're gone forever.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

Wow, suddenly I'm 'with it' again!

"I used to be with it, but then what I was with wasn't it anymore. Now what's it just seems strange and scary" --- Abraham Simpson


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## NEOhioSmiths (Sep 28, 2007)

I sure hope that small, family farms make a comeback. I'll bet that if the price of oil keeps going up they will have to - you won't be able to afford lettuce grown in California and trucked a few thousand miles to your table, or grapes grown in Chile, ....

People will have to eat more seasonally and support local (sustainable) agriculture. Not the huge mess called corporate monoculture.


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## brosil (Dec 15, 2003)

Giant farms are great if you don't have to worry about fuel and chemicals. Small farms can work with animals and use organic techniques easier. Yes, I think the small farm is coming back.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I hope we`re seeing a resurgance of the small farm. This buy local thing might help but fuel prices will kill how much profit there is in food. No profit means a person can`t make a go o it without outside work. But we forget even pioneer farmers worked in woodlots and built roads for seed money and to buy the special things. Not a popular lifestyle so every bit of support the govt. can give helps. Really all any small farm needs is a tax break for those who will do the work. Subsidies attract big biz looking for easy money........ heck every farm subsidy doled out gets eaten up through higher input costs the suppliers charge.


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## ***Heather*** (Feb 11, 2008)

We have more little farms around here AND more local fruit, veggies, maple syrup, wine(!), eggs and meat being sold locally. 

More people are talking about putting in a garden this year too.


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## Ninn (Oct 28, 2006)

I sure hope they are coming back. I want one. If anyone sees one that got lost in PA, please let me know. I'd like to capture it in the wild and tame it.


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## paintlady (May 10, 2007)

I think it is too late. Around here the younger generation has left the farms for the cities. A person can't even find any farm help during the summer months let alone have them actually try their hand at farming. Those that have left have gotten caught up in the money game of expensive toys, every kind of extra curricular activity for their kids, easy access to entertainment etc. Their mindset is that there is "nothing to do" in the country. Most of their folks are retired and rent their land out to the "bigger boys". 
With the high cost of fuel people would rather live in the cities where they can carpool, take public transportation if they have to, walk to work, ride a bike etc. When you live 15 miles from the closest tiny town those things are not an option. 
Also, many of the buildings on the vacant farms here are in disrepair and the cost of fixing them up is prohibitive.
I would like to see more family farms come back into being. I just don't think it is going to happen.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

paintlady said:


> I think it is too late.


I agree with that myself. Most of the farms around here are ran by people in their 50s or older. The most of the younger generation has no interest in farming as an occupation and those who do find themselves looking at a mountain of debt just to get started. An operational dairy farm in this state usually goes for a minimum of 350,000 and it just goes up from there. Add on the cost of fuel/fertilizer/feed and there is very little chance that a young person will be able to start up a profitable venture right away. The only thing that will bring back small family farms in my opinion is an economic/energy catastrophe that makes large corperate farms more or less impossible to operate profitably. Also food prices would have to be a bit higher to really support small scale agriculture on a large scale. I think farm subsidies don't really help matters by depressing the price of food.

Up in Canada they penalize large dairy farms by not paying producers over a certain amount for quality. The dairy where I used to work was caught in a scandal a number of years ago accepting Canadian milk and then paying the Canadian farmers their quality bonus.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

I see a lot of small farms/market gardens of a few acres, selling to pre-sold customers as CSAs (Community Supported Agriculture). People pay a up front fee for a season's supply of fresh produce, which sometimes also includes eggs, apples, honey, apple cider, etc., in addition to actual produce. Many of the people running these operations depend on summer or seasonal interns for field work help, and in turn many of these interns end up going into business for themselves after working on a couple of farms. I am greatly encouraged by the young people who are buying a few acres and actually making a living by farming on even a small scale. To do it, they often have to scale back their standard of living to meet their income---which can be a novel idea in today's world!!

But, yes, there are more small farmers around here (western Wisconsin/NE Iowa, SW Minnesota)--but the big farms are also getting bigger. It is the traditional sized family farm that is fading out of existence, the farm couple with 40 to 200 acres and a small herd of cows.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2008)

Spinner said:


> I was so shocked today to see Pres Bush announce that people need to start buying their food locally!


It didn't surprise me at all. I've been listening to him since before he was prez. He's been pushing for sustainability all along. The media totally twists everything around and makes him look opposite to what he is as far as environment and sustainability is concerned.


paintlady said:


> I think it is too late. Around here the younger generation has left the farms for the cities. A person can't even find any farm help during the summer months let alone have them actually try their hand at farming. Those that have left have gotten caught up in the money game of expensive toys, every kind of extra curricular activity for their kids, easy access to entertainment etc. Their mindset is that there is "nothing to do" in the country. Most of their folks are retired and rent their land out to the "bigger boys".
> With the high cost of fuel people would rather live in the cities where they can carpool, take public transportation if they have to, walk to work, ride a bike etc. When you live 15 miles from the closest tiny town those things are not an option.
> Also, many of the buildings on the vacant farms here are in disrepair and the cost of fixing them up is prohibitive.
> I would like to see more family farms come back into being. I just don't think it is going to happen.


That sounds like the area here.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

I think you need to define a family farm. A "Family" farm that sells produce locally is going to need to be pretty large to actually make money if they only sell locally.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

I would love to buy locally grown produce, however the main 'farmers market' in Dallas should actually be called 'produce importers market' there nothing sold there that's grown within 500 miles from here. I have not yet found anyplace in the North Dallas area that sells locally grown produce.
I remember growing up in Minnesota there were half a dozen of what my dad called 'truck farmers' as they were local farmers that sat by the side of the road with their pickups loaded with stuff they grew - what ever happened to those people? They were usually on side of a state highway.

There was also one farm about 5 miles from our house where they had a little stand by the side of the road right outside of the driveway to their farm. They didn't even have anyone there, just the veggies, a board with the prices and a small lock box you put your money into -- ok this was in the 50's and 60's in small town America - probably wouldn't work these days.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2008)

mnn2501 said:


> I would love to buy locally grown produce, however the main 'farmers market' in Dallas should actually be called 'produce importers market' there nothing sold there that's grown within 500 miles from here. I have not yet found anyplace in the North Dallas area that sells locally grown produce.


Have you checked localharvest.org ? There are bunches of small farms in the DFW area producing and selling produce, eggs, and meat.


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## Ramblin Wreck (Jun 10, 2005)

I'd like to see the reincarnation of "Victory Gardens". Every child ought to have the thrill of weeding/hoeing and picking produce from the garden...on a hot Summer day!


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2008)

Ramblin Wreck said:


> I'd like to see the reincarnation of "Victory Gardens". Every child ought to have the thrill of weeding/hoeing and picking produce from the garden...on a hot Summer day!


They've been making a HUGE comeback for some time now.

http://www.revivevictorygarden.org/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/victorygarden/


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

I think they'll come back along with the serious home vegetable garden. I think yard birds will make a comeback too. 

People don't grow up until they have to, but when they have to, most of them do.


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## marvella (Oct 12, 2003)

1. there's plenty of farm land left. maybe not where you live?
2. we need to look to europe for the model. family farms are still supporting families after generations. it's US that has gone off track with corporate farming.


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## ailsaek (Feb 7, 2007)

I've read that the average farm size worldwide is less than four acres. That would seem to me to mean that the average suburban lot could be a farm.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

ladycat said:


> Have you checked localharvest.org ? There are bunches of small farms in the DFW area producing and selling produce, eggs, and meat.


I'll check it now, thanks for the info!


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## belladulcinea (Jun 21, 2006)

Here in Oklahoma alot of small farms are springing up with younger people running them. They sell in the co-op and at the farmer's markets around the state. The prices at the markets are very good and the produce is fresh, we've gotten to know some of the farmer's and really enjoy helping out our local farmer.


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Family farms never went away, they just got bigger. The 1000+ acre farms that so many like to decry as "corporate" farms are, for the most part, family farms. It's just that technology has changed so much that the smaller farms just don't provide enough work to keep people busy beyond a hobby any more.


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## themamahen (Jun 26, 2005)

Well I will need a garden about 100X100 to keep us in food per year and that will grow 95% of all the veggies we need. I will have rabbits chickens goats and a cow.

I was raised on a farm but my granma sold the cows to pay off the farm after grandpa died. 

I spent MANY a hot day in the garden hoeing planting pickin and hotter ones in the kitchen canning. 

But this to me is enjoyable work.

with the unstable economy gas prices chemicals in the food and meat we eat I would prefer to grow as much as I can. 

There is a gentleman here who drives to Ca in a feed truck has them load it with fruit or veggies sells them then goes back another load, exc. nothing is local here.


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## lorian (Sep 4, 2005)

I really believe that people are going to use less acreage but use it "smarter".
People are already really getting into sustainability. There are some amazing people on this
board doing more on one acre than most people do on 10!
Being here (on HT) has changed my perspective on how productive a small piece of land can be.
Even our neighbors who never thought about gardening in their life (and don't have a clue) are starting a small plot this year. They've asked for help and we are thrilled!
It's a terrible/good thing for our economy to dive. Makes people less wasteful and use what they have in a better way. JMHO.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

It's a do or die situation. What bugs me is that they spout out "buy local" and then they support Big Ag stomping the little guy in the farm bill. Thanks.


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## Cascade Failure (Jan 30, 2007)

Our local Chamber of Commerce has kicked off a "buy local" campaign. I would love to see my kiwis take off to the point I have extra to sell. Locally grown kiwis in a CT farmer's market would turn some heads.


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## mtnest (Mar 11, 2008)

If people would actually be willing (or be able to find a relative willing to help if they are disabled) to do the work involved, it is completely feaseable to support 10-12 families (4-6 people per family) on just a small 1/2 acre lot/farm. We have a CSA that provides up to 20 families with ample fresh produce to eat throughout the season as well as "extra" for preserving in their preferred method. The complications come from the lack of people wanting to do the physical work required to grow the amount of food it takes to support that many people on such a small plot. It is even more complicated by the number of people who expect others to take care of them because they decided to ignore what others have suggested about preparing themselves.
I do think that you will see more and more folks at least attempting to help themselves by gardening or farming on a small scale but the big question is whether or not it will be enough as Yucca pointed out in another thread.


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## farmermom4 (Feb 17, 2007)

Well we have a small family farm! We have ten acres, we sell all natural meat products,
(beef, pork, chicken and turkeys) we also market garden, we sell at our local farmers market and a csa. I work on the farm full time, and the kids (9&11) help. My DH works off farm. My two older daughters also worked on the farm before they moved out. We started in 2000, and I can say we have more calls every year from customers wanting to buy local. They realize it will probably cost more than the store but are willing to pay more for quality. Our customers are mostly all repeat customers, we very rarely have someone who drops our products. We add more production every year because of the demand. So I am seeing a definate increase in family farm interest. As a side note, my DD9 was spending the night at a friends for a birthday party, when she got back home she said town is so boring, there is nothing to do in town and she was so glad to be back home on the farm, since we always have so much going on. I love my life!!!!!
Toni


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## pigletmsu (Mar 11, 2008)

My small suburb town has decided to launch a farmers market this year. It'll be every week. I am super excited about it so I can buy the things I'm not growing due to space, poor soil, etc. We live in a neighborhood surrounded by alot of big farms, orchards, fruit farms, etc, so I am hopeful there will be some good things to buy that will help support my local community.


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## silverbackMP (Dec 4, 2005)

ailsaek said:


> I've read that the average farm size worldwide is less than four acres. That would seem to me to mean that the average suburban lot could be a farm.


Somewhere between 2 and 4 acres in South Korea--they use EVERY square foot as well.


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## Guest (May 3, 2008)

silverbackMP said:


> Somewhere between 2 and 4 acres in South Korea--they use EVERY square foot as well.


Chinese farms are small and efficient.

http://www.txfb.org/texasagriculture/2006/080406/080406china.htm


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## naturewoman (Nov 12, 2002)

> we have more calls every year from customers wanting to buy local. They realize it will probably cost more than the store but are willing to pay more for quality.


While I do see the local farms growing in customers, there will be quite a battle to convince locals who are used to shopping at Wal-Mart that what a local farmer charges is actually a fair price. Those with more expendable cash will switch sooner (when the price of unknown imports is about the same as local organic). 

I do think this is hopeful for those of us who may not want to make a living at it, but at least bring in some extra money from our fresh organic produce and fruit.

We currently live in a Wal-Mart society, but it is changing, thanks to the higher cost of fuel.

It sort of makes it hit home that cheaper is not always best for the local economy.


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## Andy Nonymous (Aug 20, 2005)

> I was so shocked today to see Pres Bush announce that people need to start buying their food locally!


 How sad is it that people need the head of government to tell them what they should already know? :baby04: How sad also that few will check what is really happening in DC regarding "where the money goes" to see if what they are legislating and regulating is helping or hindering, and whom (just look at NAIS and ag subsidies).


mtnest said:


> ... * The complications come from the lack of people wanting to do the physical work required to grow the amount of food it takes to support that many people on such a small plot. It is even more complicated by the number of people who expect others to take care of them because they decided to ignore what others have suggested about preparing themselves.*


For those who may have missed it, "FARM" is a four letter word, closely related to that other nasty four letter word: "WORK". 

So long as it's easier to 'work' for a wage and pay for your meals than it is to work for your meals, there won't be any great rush back to small scale farming, on either the growing or buying end. Most people follow the path of least resistance, regardless of the warning signs or eventual costs to pay, just because (today) it's cheaper and easier! :bash:

'Scuse me while I get back to my own 'to-do' list, so I can get a chicken coop built, the garden fenced, and the woodshed filled.


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## VA Backwoodsman (Mar 16, 2006)

They just opened a new farmers market in Richmond. Its getting a lot of local news coverage for now. Maybe there is still hope. Over 30 vendors showed up. I have also noticed in my travels, that there are new gardens in yards that have never had them. Maybe.. just maybe, people will wake up. When it hurts peoples pockets, thats when it gets their attention that something needs to change.


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## Tom Bombadil (Mar 25, 2008)

Spinner said:


> I was so shocked today to see Pres Bush announce that people need to start buying their food locally! Yes he really said that. Maybe there was a bit of wishful thinking on my part that made me misunderstand his statement. I recorded it so I'll have to go back and listen again.
> 
> IF he really said what I think he said, it's encouraging to hear that DC is actually encouraging people to buy locally produced products. I may build a little roadside stand next year.


If the cap the tax incentives so that the big corporate farms get capped off but keep them big enough to help the family farmer, I think we will see a comeback. If the money adds up, it will happen.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

It surprises me how few of my neighbors are putting in gardens this year. Each of us has 2 acres and no one is doing anything with theirs, except shrubs and flowers. One neighbor is growing some tomatoes, but that's it! I've talked to several about the fact that even the President is suggesting people start gardens, and it just falls on deaf ears.


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## AnnieOakley (Aug 28, 2006)

Years ago before my Mother sold her home she spoke with some of the neighbors about a shared garden. She was 70 at the time. They were all excited and it ended up that my Mother did the tilling, making the rows, buying and planting and tending to the garden. She kept thinking someone would step up and help. When they didn't she said she'd just can and freeze it all for herself. When it was time to harvest it all guess what? They just about stripped it leaving her with very little. This was done when she wasn't at home. It was also on my Mother's property. The next year I called and spoke to my brother, he put a lock on her gate and we told her she needed to just have her own little garden. Some people do take advantage of others. 
Some may think this rude but she was not able to do all that work.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Annie - so sorry to hear how your mom was treated. Good that you and your brother were there to watch out for her interests.

Unfortunately, her experience is probably more usual than unusual these days.

Angie


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## stranger (Feb 24, 2008)

AnnieOakley said:


> Years ago before my Mother sold her home she spoke with some of the neighbors about a shared garden. She was 70 at the time. They were all excited and it ended up that my Mother did the tilling, making the rows, buying and planting and tending to the garden. She kept thinking someone would step up and help. When they didn't she said she'd just can and freeze it all for herself. When it was time to harvest it all guess what? They just about stripped it leaving her with very little. This was done when she wasn't at home. It was also on my Mother's property. The next year I called and spoke to my brother, he put a lock on her gate and we told her she needed to just have her own little garden. Some people do take advantage of others.
> Some may think this rude but she was not able to do all that work.


that was time to slap someone up side the head with a hoe. 
remember Little Red Hen finds a grain of wheat and asks which of the other animals in the barnyard will help her plant it. Nobody will help. "Very well, then," she replies, "I will do it myself." No one helps her with harvesting, threshing, taking the wheat to the mill or baking bread. But she has her revenge: The fruit of her labors, fresh homemade bread, is shared with her chicks while the hungry animals look on in shame.


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## chris30523 (Jun 11, 2005)

We have a small farm. 28 acres of "prime" real estate. We grow on contract for a local chicken company. It is the only way we could own the land in this area. I would like to get rid of the chickens but it is the only way we could make the payments. You see the government won't loan money long term on farms like they do on houses 12 years max and you have to fight for that.They want you to pay it off in 7 years or less.The government is the reason small farms are not thriving not the public.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

chris30523 said:


> We have a small farm. 28 acres of "prime" real estate. We grow on contract for a local chicken company. It is the only way we could own the land in this area. I would like to get rid of the chickens but it is the only way we could make the payments. You see the government won't loan money long term on farms like they do on houses 12 years max and you have to fight for that.They want you to pay it off in 7 years or less.The government is the reason small farms are not thriving not the public.


We have purchased various parcels of our farm without going to the government for money. The term of the mortgages run from 10 years (was originally 25) up to 25 years.

Why would you complain about the governments terms? If you didn't like them you didn't have to sign the mortgage.

There are quite a few small farms I know that are thriving and I don't know any of them going to the government for money.

Mike


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## chris30523 (Jun 11, 2005)

Mike in Ohio said:


> We have purchased various parcels of our farm without going to the government for money. The term of the mortgages run from 10 years (was originally 25) up to 25 years.
> 
> Why would you complain about the governments terms? If you didn't like them you didn't have to sign the mortgage.
> 
> ...


My post may not have been well worded.We didn't get government money had to borrow from a bank. The banks cannot loan money for over 12 years on "farm" land and won't appraise the land at face value they use some sort of govt program and can only finance this way on farms.(Or this is what I was told by a couple of banks) We are in an area where land values are at 20K plus an acre.I also didn't say I wasn't making money.Small farms are not as common because it is harder to make money.There is not the family owned land handed down from generation to generation . So you either pay a big mortgage (which is my case) or contract to a big company and raise crops for them(which is also my case). I don't consider myself a small farmer if I am raising crops that go to big companies.
You also used the words mortgage.We could not get a traditional mortgage on farm land. I have a "farm loan".You are also in a whole totally different type of farming community than I am.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

stranger said:


> The fruit of her labors, fresh homemade bread, is shared with her chicks while the hungry animals look on in shame.


Except there's no shame these days....more likely a lawsuit because the Red Hen was a noise nuisance with her wheat grinder, and the government would tax her 50% of the bread so that the "less fortunate" could also eat.


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## chris30523 (Jun 11, 2005)

Mom_of_Four said:


> Except there's no shame these days....more likely a lawsuit because the Red Hen was a noise nuisance with her wheat grinder, and the government would tax her 50% of the bread so that the "less fortunate" could also eat.


Definately no shame.Or the gov.Would pay the others not to grow wheat.Then put regulations in place so the Red Hen either couldn't grow the wheat to make her bread or not be able to make the bread because of gov regulations.


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## Pack Rat (Nov 9, 2006)

"Will family farms make a comeback?" There is no pat answer to that. It depends on too many factors, such as how you define "the family farm", and how you define a comeback. If you mean a return to a more localised, less transportation dependent, less outside energy dependent based agriculture, it is possible, but shouldn't we look at what made for the demise of so many of them in the industrial nations the first place? 

Primarily the availability of and ability to use cheap fossil fuel energy. In places where people are too poor to mechanise (with machines made possible and built by fossil fuels), or in places where mechanisation would be prohibitive (small plots, terraces on hillsides, small yards), people still do the work by human or draught power. In areas where hundreds of hectares can be covered in an air-conditioned 200hp all wheel drive tractor pulling 12 bottom ploughs or implements 6 meters wide (about 20 feet) for a cost of 20 litres (about 6 US gallons / 5 imperial gallons) of fuel an hour - these are the places that small family farms have all but disappeared. Why? Cheap fuel has made it possible. Have you any idea how much work it would take to do that kind of farming with teams of draught animals? How about by human power alone?

As fuel costs go up, as supplies diminish, not only will the cost of running those machines go up, but the cost of repairing and replacing them will also as the factories and raw materials they work with are made possible to the degree they are by fossil fuels. Raw materials will still be available, but the energy cost to strip-mine them may become prohibitive. Fossil fuels will still be available, but probably not at prices ordinary people can afford with a declining standard of living.

At some point in the rising costs of fuel, the economics of "large scale" will no longer be valid because a family with access to a small tract of land will be able to raise their own food for less labour investment than it would take to earn the money to pay someone else to mechanically raise their food. Those with larger tracts of land will not be able to utilise them fully, and probably based on taxation, will have to divest to a size they can afford to keep with what crops and animal products they as a family can sell to local markets.

And just how much human energy is in a gallon of gasoline? from here 
From Dr. David Pimentel:

"That is, the 38,000 kcal in one gallon of gasoline can be transformed into 8.8 KWh, which is about 3 weeks of human work equivalent.(Human work output in agriculture = 0.1 HP, or 0.074 KW, times 120 hours.)" 

There are about 35kcal in a gallon of diesel (my figures show 31.5Kcal in a gallon of gasoline), and discounting any loss of efficiency in doing producing "work", it equals almost 41KwH. Divide that by .074 (the energy output of an ag worker) = 554 hours, or about *fifty* 11 hour days in the field. Looking at it that way, in US figures, at an hourly wage of $6 per hour, a gallon of fuel should be worth somewhere between $720 and $3324 per gallon. Looking at it from the other direction, a $5 gallon's worth of work is only paying 4.2 cents an hour, max. 

The real calculations would have to reflect not only the work to produce the food to fuel the human, but on the other side of the calculation, *all* the fuel inputs to produce the labour saving machinery including amortizing in the resources that built the plant that makes the equipment, the energy spent by the employees in commuting to work and in building their vehicles, the energy to run the machines built as well as factoring in all the inefficiencies along the way. It rapidly gets too complicated to figure with any degree of accuracy. Regardless, the fact is that fossil fuel energy is still a real bargain for the work it produces, and will continue to be for some time to come, though it will become increasingly scrutinized for the value of the work it does, and there are a lot of lifestyle changes that will have to be made by many people that will amount to a decline in their accustomed standard of living.

There is a reason there was slave labour throughout so much of earth's history - the need for cheap energy; and as fossil fuel energy gets more expensive, there is a real danger of slavery happening on a large scale again: that those who have the wherewithal to control large aspects of wealth and power can maintain their lifestyles off the sweating backs of others who for their labours, might even live at all. A passing look at America's founding fathers reveals that those who had the time and wherewithal to become educated and to serve as diplomats and representatives "in Congress assembled", held slaves. They prospered because of cheap energy. Likewise for the mill owners who paid their girls 46-60 cents a week. Those who had to do all the work themselves, didn't do as well as those who could obtain cheap energy / labor. Oil has filled that bill for several decades, but that, as all good things, is coming to an end. Look back at how life was without abundant oil, before coal was easy to get at, when Europe became largely deforested. Welcome to the future.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

chris30523 said:


> My post may not have been well worded.We didn't get government money had to borrow from a bank. The banks cannot loan money for over 12 years on "farm" land and won't appraise the land at face value they use some sort of govt program and can only finance this way on farms.(Or this is what I was told by a couple of banks) We are in an area where land values are at 20K plus an acre.I also didn't say I wasn't making money.Small farms are not as common because it is harder to make money.There is not the family owned land handed down from generation to generation . So you either pay a big mortgage (which is my case) or contract to a big company and raise crops for them(which is also my case). I don't consider myself a small farmer if I am raising crops that go to big companies.
> You also used the words mortgage.We could not get a traditional mortgage on farm land. I have a "farm loan".You are also in a whole totally different type of farming community than I am.


I have to say that whomever you spoke with misinformed you.

1) A mortgage is a mortgage whether it is a residential mortgage, a mrotgage on commercial real estate or a mortgage on farm land. By definition a mortgage is a loan secured by real property. 


2) There may be different terms based on the nature of the asset being pledged as collateral but I can tell you with assurance that there is not a 12 year limit on loans for raw land. If you go to http://www.e-farmcredit.com/TodaysRates/FarmRates/FarmLandRates/tabid/251/Default.aspx you will find loan rates for raw land with durations up to 30 years.

Mike


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## Tom Bombadil (Mar 25, 2008)

stranger said:


> that was time to slap someone up side the head with a hoe.


That's 3 stitches ... personal experience.:doh:


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## chris30523 (Jun 11, 2005)

Mike in Ohio said:


> I have to say that whomever you spoke with misinformed you.
> 
> 1) A mortgage is a mortgage whether it is a residential mortgage, a mrotgage on commercial real estate or a mortgage on farm land. By definition a mortgage is a loan secured by real property.
> 
> ...


It is not raw land. It is a poultry farm. It has something to do with the fact that most of the income to pay for the farm comes from the farm?? You got me? If they were just to look at it as a mortgage without considering our "farm" income we could do a regular mortgage but then our IDR would be out of whack and we couldn't afford it. We spoke with several lenders including farmcredit . Now if we were from and "ethnic" group and felt we had been discriminated against at some time there is "special" money available this year and terms up to 40yr financing with no money down. What a deal...


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## CathyMarie (May 8, 2008)

paintlady said:


> I think it is too late. Around here the younger generation has left the farms for the cities. A person can't even find any farm help during the summer months let alone have them actually try their hand at farming.


I definitely understand where you're coming from. I just spent the better part of a year volunteering at a sustainable farm run by a non-profit in central Massachusetts. I worked a lot with student groups who came to learn about sustainable farming and world hunger. It was incredible how many students (both male and female) were more worried about getting manure on their shoes than anything else. However, I think there is some hope. I came across many middle schoolers and high schoolers who came from farming communities and definitely planned on working the land someday.

I'm not very old myself (hardly out of my teens), and I'm itching to get on some land of my own. Although young people are still leaving farming areas in droves, I think we can take hope in the increasing numbers of urban youth deciding to WWOOF (Willing Workers on Organic Farmers). Many people I've met on this path plan on opening their own small, sustainable family farms in the future. Here's hoping the family farm catches on again!


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Welcome to the forum CathyMarie, and thanks for your news of what you've seen first hand. I hope you are correct.

Angie


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

CathyMarie said:


> I definitely understand where you're coming from. I just spent the better part of a year volunteering at a sustainable farm run by a non-profit in central Massachusetts. I worked a lot with student groups who came to learn about sustainable farming and world hunger. It was incredible how many students (both male and female) were more worried about getting manure on their shoes than anything else. However, I think there is some hope. I came across many middle schoolers and high schoolers who came from farming communities and definitely planned on working the land someday.
> 
> I'm not very old myself (hardly out of my teens), and I'm itching to get on some land of my own. Although young people are still leaving farming areas in droves, I think we can take hope in the increasing numbers of urban youth deciding to WWOOF (Willing Workers on Organic Farmers). Many people I've met on this path plan on opening their own small, sustainable family farms in the future. Here's hoping the family farm catches on again!


I grew up expecting to be a farmer, but by the time the opportunity rolled around the bank owned the land. My grandfather plowed the land with horses and only planted what he could break himself and he made a profit. My father tilled from fenceline to fenceline with expensive tractors and hired hands, exactly as the 1980's department of agriculture told him to do, and went bankrupt. Now about twelve families live there, the creek where I swam as a child is gone, and there's a Chevron next to the old family cemetery where my grandmother is buried. 

I don't have much hope for these urban youth becoming farmers. They may pick up an acre or two here and there, but that's maybe not enough, and how many of them will stick it out when they see what hard work it actually is? It's one thing to go out and help plant a row of carrots on a Saturday afternoon, but it's another thing when you're hunting for a pregnant cow who is dropping her calf in a snowstorm at 2am in January. 

Even so, it seems there's little arable land left at a price that a young man can get into and work as his sole career. I took over marginal land that had lost most of its fertility to "horse people" who grazed 8 horses per acre for years with no replenishment of the soil. It'll take me ten years to pay off the mortgage working an off-farm job as the subdivisions keep creeping out from the cities and another ten years after that before I've rebuilt the fertility of the land to where it'll sustain regular crop production. There was no farm waiting for me when I became a man, and it took me almost twenty years of hard work and savings before I could find my way back to one. 

We spent four generations telling all the youth of the nation to "leave the farm and go to the big city where you can get a real job". That's four generations as we derided the regular farmer as a "hayseed" or "Deliverance Banjo Player". Every subdivision is a failed farm. Many successful farmers are nothing more than welfare recipients on subsidies, and those who are truly in the black are having to do it with non-traditional means and swimming against the current as big government takes their money and gives it to their competitiors .. the big agribusiness who hires illegal labor and gets free land from the state in exchange for the "jobs" they bring in.

No civilization in history has reversed the trend from small family farms to large scale agricultural production. Not the Chinese, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Romans, or the Russians. It's nothing but American hubris to think that we'll be the ones to break out of that cycle. 

Best we can do is stick to our small homesteads, keep the basic skills and knowledge alive, and wait out the coming storm. Our grandchildren will need to know these things, if we ourselves don't.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

I am affraid it is wishfull thinking. There are just too many people, for small farmers to feed them.


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