# Advice on abandoned hive



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

There's a hive that was left several years ago on land that was abandoned. The neighbor is scared of them and wants them removed. I tried but long story short there was no way to smoke them the way the boxes were stacked. There was so much propolis from years of being left alone that when I finally cracked it and tried to move the top hive body I was covered in a very angry family of Russians. I immediately backed off and am hoping to lure them into a swarm trap because they look like they're trying. It's been 24 hours and this photo looks the same. Still a pile underneath and tons in the frames. They sure don't seem to be in a hurry if they are planning to go. The bodies are junk and not something I want in my apiary and I can't get the frames separated to simply move them to another hive. Any ideas on how to retrieve without hoping they take the swarm trap bait?


----------



## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Manually split them into two fresh hive boxes and re-queen both of them.


----------



## ed/La (Feb 26, 2009)

When bees are aggressive come back later. Suit up and use plenty of smoke if you have to. Sugar water in a spray bottle or clean bug sprayer keeps them busy. Bring some empty frames and rubber bands so you have some where to put brood that is not in frames. You could separate boxes making 2 or 3 bring them somewhere a few miles away and clean them up at your leisure. Smoke tells them who the boss is. You can not bring them home if she is next door or you will lose the field bees. They will go back there. Easier then a cut out. You can do it.


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

I like that idea of collecting brood in frames with rubber bands


----------



## ed/La (Feb 26, 2009)

Another easier way then rubber band is get some bamboo BBQ skures and staple 3 or 4 to one side of frame add loose brood comb and staple a few on other side to hold them in. Be careful to keep them right side up. Also these bees survived with no help so probably good breeding stock. Let them make their own queens so you do not loose the blood line. Frames will be stuck together so bring small key hole saw to separate. I use hand held dry wall saw. Once you get 1 frame or 2 out it will get easier. Put damaged honey comb in a cooler or something.If you have electric you can blow bees off with shop vac.


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

I'm nervous to bring any of that equipment back. Am I crazy or is that a reasonable instinct?


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

If It were me I would attempt to smoke the bunch in the top box from the bottom. then attempt to get it more square on the bottom box. When that was done I would add the new equipment and try drumming them from the bottom up.

I have also used ther bee vac to remove bees from abandoned equipment that was stacked all hap hazard.

If there is Diease in the boxes the Girls have it too already.

 Al


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

Ok so is it likely they aren't diseased if they have made it so long? And what is drumming? Is that tapping on the bottom to annoy them into coming out the top?


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I have did this once with a chunk of tree a service removed and found bees in it.


*DRUMMING 

Another method of transferring bees is by drumming them out of the old hive. To drum bees, remove the bottom of the old hive and turn it upside down. Place a new hive with drawn comb or foundation on top of the inverted box and close all openings. Drum vigorously with a rubber mallet, stick or hammer on the side of the old hive continuously for eight to ten minutes. This causes the bees and queen to move upward. Smoking the old colony before drumming is also helpful in starting the bees upward. When most of the bees have moved up into the new hive, a queen excluder is then placed between the new and old equipment and an upper entrance provided. After several days, the new hive should be checked for evi- dence of the queen. If the queen is not above, the queen excluder must be removed and the drumming process repeated. Three weeks later, after the queen has been confined above and all the brood has emerged below, the old hive may be removed and discarded. *


I would just set the new stuff above the old and start drumming. sorry I just do not see the reason to turn the old hive over.

 Al


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

Wow that is so cool. I've never heard of that. At this point I'm thinking I'll smoke both hive bodies and transfer them to my yard. I was originally worried about diseases or mites that may be transferred but at this moment I'm thinking that if there is anything. This stock may have a resistance and may be worth bringing over to pass on to my girls. Slowly transfer some of the equipment over to mine and discard, like you said, away from my area.


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Sounds good to me. the mites will be on the backs of the girls. Also in drone cells and come out when the drones hatch. Use powdered sugar so they groom the mites off their bodies.

This is one I got when I was searching drone comb for them.











 Al


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

Now I have heard of that. I got a sifter specifically for my bees so I could start doing that as a preventative method. Haven't yet, but I've thought about it. Baby steps, right? 

I sure do appreciate the advice. We'll see how it goes from here.

If I may pick your brain on one other thing. After disrupting the hive, I noticed them bunching like they were looking to swarm. I would expect that since their home is wide open. That was Saturday. As of yesterday the "pile" was smaller than the day before. Would it be a safe assumption that they still intend to swarm but see no immediate threat remaining so they are taking what time they can to eat and store up food? I can't make it there tonight so I hope they're around tomorrow evening still. That would be 4 days without a protected home.


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

If you have been smoking them a lot they will hang outside thr hive fanning air to clear the smoke smell that is left.
would be nice to know some of what is going on there weather wise, what is in bloom if any thing?

Back to the hive. Are they on a bottom board, is it a screen board or solid? screen bottom is best for the powder sugar treatment. Once the bees grom the mites off they should fall thru the screen and not be able to get back on a bee.


Why can't you set up a bottom board take the top box off and set it on the bottom board. Just made a artifical swarm and the bee have no reason to swarm. The queen less box will make a new queen.


 Al


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

They have not had a bottom board. Their hive has been just a stack of hive bodies on a wooden board in the back of an old abandoned pickup. No bottom board. No entrance even. There is just a crack that they come and go from. It's truly amazing what they can live in if you ask me.

I am just going to take the body and put it on a screened bottom and back to my house. I was trying to avoid bringing that equipment back with me because of how bad it is but I think that's the only way and like we talked about, this brood is strong and may help my girls get tougher and more resistant.

I suppose I can't worry too much about bringing something in if I plan on catching swarms in the future. For that matter, any packages I order could potentially run the same risk of transferring diseases


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

If you learn to do splits and take a hive and make 5 frame nucs there is no need to buy theose southern girls (package) and bring them north.

As long as you make sure to put frames of eggs to 3 day old larva in the nuc or split they will make a queen. Starting with a colony that has been on their own for a while is a good start too. Later you can learn to graft and raise your own queens in a gueen rearing box 

I would not worry about diseases in the old equipment very much since the bees are alive and appear to be doing good. Now if the bees didn't look healthy I would just get rid of the whole shebang.



 Al


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

I sure appreciate all this info. Beekeeping has more of a learning curve than I gave it credit for!


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I have been keeping bees for a long time and still am learning stuff. Attend a lot of classes like they have in the spring at School craft college. then later at MSU each year.

A old fellow I met years ago who had started keeping bees in the 1940's told me never stop trying new things or experimenting.

He gave me my first Cooper grafting tool so I could raise queens in mass.


 Al


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

I have 1 hive that survived the winter and I'd like to make my first split with it but I don't think its ready. With any luck, this will be the first year I get honey. Hoping to add a super this weekend.


----------



## tom j (Apr 3, 2009)

Wait til you see and have drones to breed the new queen


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

Oh good call. I guess I just assumed there would be wild bees somewhere


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Not many wild bees left around, my area any way.

 Al


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

That's because you know how to catch them ;-)


----------



## tom j (Apr 3, 2009)

Don't know about were you are but here in mn we dont have drones tiil later in spring


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

tom j said:


> Don't know about were you are but here in mn we bont have dronestil later in spring


I'm in West TN and I'm guessing I must be earlier than you because last year I had a hive try to swarm in February. I assume they wouldn't make queens if they couldn't have their mating flight, right?


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Yes your way earlier than we are. We have just had a few days over 40 F so far in March.

Last year was a lot warmer here, a very mild winter over all 2017.

 Al


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

We had some very cold days this last winter (for this area, I'm originally a New Englander) but its warmed up. It's just been real rainy and cloudy so they haven't been out much. I need to go put a sugar waterer out


----------



## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Hmm, Have you thought of putting out some drawn comb(oh you may not have any) old drawn comb is like free skateboards to teenagers. To bee's. How many boxes is this swarm the swarm trap will not work if it doesn't have enough room for the current hive. put out three deeps with wax in frames. with sugar Water feeder. Won't work all the time

Another thought I remember the days when I would do anything to get a new hive, there are times when they are not worth it.
With all the problems, dieses out there, and I can bet I'll get real horror for this thought but I would do a powdered sugar roll and see what the mite level is in this hive and if there is any off smells! (dieses ) Also a chance that these are a swarm you missed last year. Are you keeping Russians?

And there are times you just burn the poor things, I can still hear my beekeeping mentor having a belly laugh, over my trying to rescue every swarm.
Dutch


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

I actually went and picked it up last night and brought it to my place. Hopefully no diseases that will kill mine off, but some that help build up tolerance is ok ;-)

At first I thought this was a hive that was abandoned but the more I look at it, the owners would have left it with no entrance. Ok, maybe a bad beekeeper wouldn't care about their setup, but it had a frame feeder. Right now I'm thinking this was just a stack of equipment that a swarm moved into at some point. 

I got as many bees as I could into one box and I feel I got the queen. I got it to my house late last night and will add another deep on top when I get home this afternoon. Sugar water is already out for them so they feel they have a food source and hopefully decide to stay. If not, I tried.


----------



## 2livfree (Jul 13, 2012)

ok I am a naturalist. I have found that "smoking bees" is awful!!! i would suggest splitting the hive. build 2 Warre hives and a natural escape with no re-entrance from the current hive.just cones of screening will do, they can leave but not reenter the hive. Smoke is abnormal and puts them in distress. Please remember you have command and dominion over all animals natural is best and also the easiest


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

I'll have to look that up and learn more about that idea. Never heard of it. Thanks!


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Stay with the Langstroth equipment, a much wider sorce of equipment can be bought new and used.

bee keepers have used smoke for several hundred maybe thousands of years so don't let that bother you.
I admit I tend to mist with sugar syrup more than I smoke them but the smoker is lit and near by. One sting and I smoke the area I was stung and then the bees.

Good you have them home, I would grab the other box too.

 Al


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

Yeah I have enough of the Langstroth that I just need to stick with it. I'm always interesting in learning about something different though. 

The other box was nasty. Actually, neither looked good, but it got them here. I'll slowly but quickly transfer to mine. Most of its mine now actually. Only one 10 frame deep and the frames inside are from the old hive. I'll transfer and frames with brood into a new super and fill the rest of the new super with new frames. As that brood hatches I'll swap out the remaining frames.


----------



## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

I've enjoyed this post, bees are on my someday list.


----------



## siberian (Aug 23, 2011)

2livfree said:


> ok I am a naturalist. I have found that "smoking bees" is awful!!! i would suggest splitting the hive. build 2 Warre hives and a natural escape with no re-entrance from the current hive.just cones of screening will do, they can leave but not reenter the hive. Smoke is abnormal and puts them in distress. Please remember you have command and dominion over all animals natural is best and also the easiest



Isn't smoke natural, therefore the bees have the process to gather and move on. Agree that little and cool smoke is best....


----------



## WildPrGardens (Mar 8, 2014)

Smoke is _*not *_abnormal.
Forest and prairie fires have been part of nature for eons. The bees have the instinctive reaction to the smoke built into their DNA.
Beekeepers simply utilize that *normal* reaction to calm the bees when they need to tear into the hives.
Excessive, bitter and hot smoke will rile them up and not be of any benefit to the beekeeper nor the bees.
Nothing wrong with a _modified_ Warren hive or concept of handling bees.
Having movable & removable frames is not only the *law, *it makes sense to help keep the hive free of diseases and to be able to remove comb with honey without destroying the comb with brood or pollen.

Warre developed his concepts before power tools and all the widespread pests and deseases were such a problem.
A square vertical hive does more naturally fit the shape of the cluster and the colonies natural movement within the hive than an oblong one. Wether it's a Langstroth or Kenyan.

You're doing fine CityFeet. More power to ya.

You most likely won't be getting any super bees with the new hive. Just because bees have been at a particular location for years and years doesn't mean that the bees you got are descended directly from the original bees. 
Most every wild hive throws off at least one swarm every year. Then that swarm throws off a swarm the next year. 
Even if the original hive has problems with mites it should survive a good three years before it succumbs the last fall or winter.
Then the next spring a new swarm looking for a home finds it and moves in.
The casual observer just thinks it's the same colony.

When your hives requeen themselves, many of the drones the virgin queen mates with could well be from wild hives in the area, so you will be getting new blood mixed into your bees automatically.

Good luck.


----------



## ed/La (Feb 26, 2009)

2livfree said:


> ok I am a naturalist. I have found that "smoking bees" is awful!!! i would suggest splitting the hive. build 2 Warre hives and a natural escape with no re-entrance from the current hive.just cones of screening will do, they can leave but not reenter the hive. Smoke is abnormal and puts them in distress. Please remember you have command and dominion over all animals natural is best and also the easiest


I use smoke only when necessary. Usually if bees are attacking me after I move away to give them a minute to chill. Smoke the bees after me not smoke the hive. Also a little smoke on me. Another option is good spray bottle with sugar water. Harder for them to fly. Keeps them busy cleaning off sugar. Often they are calm and use nothing but if bee yard is miles from home you have to do what you came to do. Try doing a cut out with out smoke. Ouch.


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

Great point! I never really thought of that but it's so simple I don't know how I didn't.


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

WildPrGardens said:


> When your hives requeen themselves, many of the drones the virgin queen mates with could well be from wild hives in the area, so you will be getting new blood mixed into your bees automatically.


Let me try this again lol

Great point! I never really thought of that but it's so simple I don't know how I didn't.


----------



## txsteele (Nov 19, 2014)

Guys........I hate to be “that guy” but I’m a police officer (and bee keeper) and just because a neighbor doesn’t like the bees doesn’t give him authority to allow someone else to take bees off an “abandoned” property that he/she doesn’t even own. 

We all know how expensive bee keeping can be. How much might those hives have been worth? 

Again, just playing Devils Advocate here, but what if a relative was “willed” that property and was going to sell those hives tomorrow? 

I’m on a 3000 acre deer hunting lease where there are 8 hives, 5 mediums/deeps, deep that NO ONE ever tends to. I check them out all the time but taking them for my own is never a thought. Well it is a thought but that’s theft.

Not trying to cast judgement here, but I think we should think a little bit more on this issue. Maybe?????


----------



## WildPrGardens (Mar 8, 2014)

Great point TX, 
I should have thought of that too.

I had an out yard at a market garden place for a while years ago. They'd had someone else keep bees there for a long time, but that person hadn't been around for a few years and only had one hive left on the property. The people needed more bees.

After trying to contact the guy for two years, even going to his place more than once, leaving messages in his door and answering machine, I finally placed hives at the location.
But I never thought about taking his bees or equipment.

I did worry some about the untended hive infecting mine, but after inspecting it I moved mine into another corner of the field.
I heard he was busy tending to his ailing wife and seldom home(both well into their eighties). I never saw him or heard from him, nor met anyone who had recently.

As far as I know that hive is still there. The land wasn't abandoned, just the hive.
I didn't feel right taking it even when offered it by the land owners.

If a property is truly abandoned the taxes don't get paid and the county takes it over.
I don't think there is a single square foot of land in this country that isn't controlled by someone or some entity.

If you have successfully transferred the bees to your own equipment, I'd take the old stuff back, don't destroy it. 

It does sound like just a pile of equipment rather than an actual hive.

Good luck.


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

It is just a pile of equipment. It seems the owners (when they had bees) took care of them (they had feeders and everything). These were just stacked boxes s swarm moved into. The owner is serving life in prison so I don't know who may be paying taxes or if the county took it over


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

That said, when I get done transferring the bees I will return their boxes. The equipment is in such rough shape I never planned on using it.

As a matter of fact, seeing what the bees did to make this equipment workable was very impressive


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

The county should have the records on who is paying the taxes.


 Al


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

Is that open for anyone to review or just those with a "need to know" (whoever that may include)


----------



## WildPrGardens (Mar 8, 2014)

Those kind of records are in the ''Public Records" category.

You might have to pay a small fee for a copy, 50 cents , a dollar maybe.

Some municipalities have them available online.


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

In this county of Michigan for $5.00 you will get the tax amount paid, last time paid, Name and adress of the payer of the taxes.

Just paid that fee as we had heard the owner of the 10 acres beside us had died.
found out it is in a trust and the Owner we knew is alive, will be paying the taxes for a little longer as we have agreed on a price down payment and years on the land contract Yesterday. Still waiting on what the intrest rate will be.

 Al


----------



## cityfeet (Feb 1, 2015)

I've heard, but want to look more into it, that the county will sell property that owes on property taxes and you only pay the taxes owed. I'd like to get me some property for hunting or maybe adding some cattle


----------

