# Hoarding money?



## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

When I was in the big nation wide bank that I do business with last week, I noticed that people were withdrawing fairly large sums of money. I didn't think much about it since it was right before Christmas. 

I went to the bank today to withdraw a few thousand dollars(I don't leave money in that account due to the number of times they have messed up my account) and they didn't have enough cash!! Now granted, it has snowed here and they say that they haven't received a cash delivery in the last couple of days, but ....they are out of cash? ....and right before the new year when all kinds of taxes and laws are going into effect.....

Makes me wonder if people are keeping more of their money in cash now.


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## gotlabs (Dec 16, 2012)

Maybe it's beginning......very strange indeed. I thought local banks would work with each other in those cases.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

You trust a bank eep: I remember think it was Jesse James said banks are for with draws not deposits :bouncy: I think he had a point .


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## farmer9989 (Apr 22, 2008)

If things get real bad it might be used for wiping paper,probably not good though.


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## Lancer (Nov 23, 2008)

Even if your bank is run by close family, I would still keep an awfully close eye on them!eep:


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## Lancer (Nov 23, 2008)

Maybe the Gov. is getting closer to a date ,to devalue the buck even more:sob:


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Because of the Christmas season and the weather, I wouldn't be too worried about it. 

Before Y2K, a woman I know worked at a bank, and there was a wealthy customer who wanted all her accounts converted to cash, which she would store in her safety deposit box until the "crisis" was over. This woman had about $90,000 in that one bank, and the bank had to order money from the Federal Reserve, because even the large bank where she worked didn't keep that amount on hand.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

The key is always owe them more than they owe you :grumble:
Think i go down and get mine in small bills all ten dollars of it :bouncy:


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## PrairieBelle22 (Nov 17, 2006)

I just spoke with my SIL who is a banker and she said that she has not seen any sign of people coming in to get money any more than usual. She said that if there was a trend starting, they would have been notified. She said that if she notices anything or hears of anything that she will let me know. And of course, I will let you know,  

Belle


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## PrairieBelle22 (Nov 17, 2006)

But I did hear that a gallon of milk is supposed to go up to $7.00 per gallon.

B


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

Jed Clampett tried to withdraw millions and wanted it all in $1 bills.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

TxMex said:


> Makes me wonder if people are keeping more of their money in cash now.


At least it is beyond the hands of others that way.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Keeping at least a reasonable stash at home is a good idea. If the stock market takes a really serious dive, and the Fed declares a "Bank Holiday" the ATMs will stop working. Also, if you read the fine print on your account, federal law allows (and in some cases orders) banks to limit withdrawals. Bank runs aren't unheard of, and happen in a hurry.


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## Andy Nonymous (Aug 20, 2005)

As far as everyday Boy Scout preparedness goes, Ozarks Tom has hit it pretty well - it is a good idea to keep a small stash of currency on hand, JIC, but... Hoarding *money*? :stars: Even *if* people are stockpiling pictures of dead presidents (PoDPs), that isn't money - it's *currency*, and there is a difference. 

Currency is most commonly a debt instrument. It is created out of thin air (borrowed from a fabricated ledger entry, at interest at taxpayer expense) and has value only because the Wizards of Oz say so and people keep believing it does. In practice, the value of any given currency is linked to how much of it there is, and the more that's printed, the less value each unit of it has (inflation). Pennies are not "now worth more in scrap"; the paper is now worth far less than 100 coppers, but most people are conditioned to think in dollars, as if they are the constant. :umno:
"Money" is by definition either a physical asset (something with intrinsic value), or can readily be redeemed for one (e.g.: a valid "silver certificate"). It can be anything two or more people agree on the value of as a medium of exchange, be that a measured cup of salt, a Kg of seed corn, a liter of honey, a new 8' 2x4, or a set amount of a metal in the form of a coin (that "moth doeth not eat, nor rust corrupt"). Such stuff put away today, will still have real value next week. The same can not be said for fiat script, especially on the cusp of, um, various "whirled e-vents in calm erase". 

The "value link" of script to goods is more like a rubber band than a set length of steel, and while the US (and other nations) may not have seen a lock step increase in "costs of essentials" as the supply of Fiat's has increased, rest assured that the rubber band is being stretched, and eventually "costs" (in script) will accelerate to match the flow at the output end of the printing presses (a'la QE ad infinitum). 

As long as more is printed, currency put away for a rainy day will be worth less as time passes. There are numerous historic examples when a currency/debt instrument (like Zimbabewe dollars, or Bear-Sterns stock) can lose significant value with each passing hour, and the last ones holding the IOU's, are 'holding the (empty) bag'. The Z$ was a poster child: in the early 80's, it was 1:1 with the USD, by the late 1990's a 100,000,000 note (yep, 100 million) would buy three eggs (and the person selling the eggs was getting burned in the time it took to find someone who was willing to accept it's rapidly declining value as trade for something else).

Try this math: a 1964 (90% silver, "junk"/circulated) US quarter is in round numbers currently worth at least 7 Georges (i.e.: Geo has lost more than 28 times his "value", because there are more than 28 times more of him floating around). Depending on location, gasoline was about 30 cents a gallon then, meaning that a '64 quarter, if accepted at real market value, would buy you more gas now than then. It is also a good indicator that fuel is currently in lower demand than "junk coin", and their values reflect that. <-- read that again, and think about it a moment. Act accordingly if so equiped and inclined.

As the value of PoDPs decline (along with their counterparts around the world who are locked in a game of financial chicken as to who can print more, faster, before the economic engine flies off the rails), it will take more and more of them to purchase things like Real Goods. One would be wise to do their part to keep the economy going (wink, wink; nudge, nudge), and pass along those pictures as fast as they come in (to maximize their current value). Setting them aside is akin to storing liquid(ity) in a rain barrel that leaks - depending on how much external suction is applied (by the rate of fresh ink) and how long it sits, you won't get out but a fraction of what went in. The proper answer is to only stash the liquid you can afford to lose.

All the above is merely short term thinking, and while it may help a few now, it will end in abject misery for far more than is necessary. The misery should be applied only where deserving (at the top). We need to think beyond what currently is and establish something else as a medium of exchange, be that a cord of wood, a bucket of coal, or real ("junk") singles, halves, fourths, and tenths. The end result will be giving a central banker sphincter spasms by not needing their paper for *commerce*, because we are using something of value for *trade* (and yes, there is a difference there as well, but it's too complicated to tackle here).


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## fransean (Dec 21, 2002)

Branch banks have to place orders with the Federal Reserve Bank for on hand cash. It is a "guess" at best to anticipate the amount of cash needed based on the time of month, pay days and other special circumstances. I was a teller supervisor once upon a time and had to order cash for the branch.
Banks can't "share" money unless they are of the same bank using the same FRB general ledger account. And I personally would not volunteer to be the one to manually transfer the $$$$ - liability and theft issues!
If there is a special request and they know about it before hand (not the day before) they can order in that extra amount of cash. 
Banks do have the right to limit the amount of withdrawals under certain circumstances. Not having enough cash on hand would qualify. I remember a time when our system went down and we could not verify balances - another instances where withdrawal limits would be enforced.


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## countryfied2011 (Jul 5, 2011)

This happened to us a couple of years ago. They didn't have enough on hand, they called the other local branch in the same town, they didnt have enough either. Had to wait a day or two cant remember for it to come from the bigger bank in Nashville. The teller explained it to me the same as Fransean explained it.


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## Sunbee (Sep 30, 2008)

I've had incidents lately at several stores--Herbergers and Payless Shoes--where they wouldn't accept my check because their electronic instant check service wouldn't take it. The gal at Herbergers knew why; the gal at Payless just knew that checks from my credit union--including her own--didn't work. In spite of the fact that other stores in town have no problems with it. If I hadn't been carrying enough cash to cover those purchases I wouldn't have been able to make them. I figure my credit union is pretty trustworthy--it's the sort of place where all the tellers know you by name and your kids, too--but it's a good reason to carry more cash, rather than leave money sitting in the account until I'm ready to use it. I've had a couple times back when I used a debit card where the providing bank's computer crashed or the bank lost power and that meant the debit card wouldn't work. So really, if you want to be able to buy something for certain, you've got to have cash. Because you just never know when the computer gremlins will be against you. I expect that as time goes on more and more people will have these experiences and start carrying cash.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

PrairieBelle22 said:


> But I did hear that a gallon of milk is supposed to go up to $7.00 per gallon.
> 
> B


The farm bill passed, so milk will stay as it is now.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

Andy where have you been. I miss your comments.


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## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

I wonder if I go and ask for my money in silver coins if they will comply with my wishes.


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## Deacon Mike (May 23, 2007)

edcopp said:


> The farm bill passed, so milk will stay as it is now.


No, it hasn't passed. The Republicans in the house won't bring it to the floor.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Andy Nonymous said:


> Currency is most commonly a debt instrument.
> 
> "Money" is by definition either a physical asset (something with intrinsic value), or can readily be redeemed for one ........ (that "moth doeth not eat, nor rust corrupt").


Wealth vs. Mammon

http://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei..._qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.eWU&biw=1024&bih=663

One thing that he points out so well is that God governs wealth while mammon (the name of a demon) governs paper currency. God's wealth multiplies.... 2 cows will turn into 15 cows over time..... mammon only give percentage increase like 2% on a savings account. 

If anyone gets a chance to meet Rev Landars or to hear him speak on the subject do it. Wonderful man, wonderful family, great book


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

After Sandy, credit card machines still worked at many stores but you couldn't use a debit card. I also found out when I went to buy ice and they were taking only cash, they had no change so they were THRILLED when I paid my $12 in singles. Now I am building up my little stash of small bills. A few $20s, a few more $10s but mostly $5s and $1s. If I have a couple of singles in my wallet or a five, I put them in the envelope. It's not hurting at all to do it this way and I figure at least I have a few bucks in cash at home in small bills in case something happens. It's certainly no "run" though. I'd need money in the bank in order to do that! LOL


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## sdnapier (Aug 13, 2010)

Just don't hoard it in the freezer. I read recently about a survey that was done and it seems a huge number of folks "hide" their money in the freezer. The bad guys know this.


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## Bob Huntress (Dec 17, 2012)

The way the government spends, that money won't be worth the paper it's printed on, and if they don't have the Obama administrations approved mark on either their forehead or hand, they won't be allowed to either buy or sell, anyway. What a threat, not being allowed to transact worthless paper for useless Chinesse lead covered asbestos and mercury flavored food items!


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

Andy,

I have to jump in here and let you know that you response was one of the most informed and well thought out I have seen. You are spot on. Few people understand to that detail. My hat's off to you.

In terms of long term preparations, we need to understand that paper currency is not where we need to be - it is for the short term. For long term, we need a well understood 'store of value'. A 'store of value' will preserve its value across any currency devaluation or debt monetization. While Andy pointed out that anything can be store of value if we all agree upon it, the most commonly agreed upon over the last several thousand years has been physical gold and silver.

As Andy said, seek to gain an understanding and then act accordingly depending on your needs and abilities.

Robert


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## zito (Dec 21, 2006)

Where I am most different banks have a daily cash limit of $2500-$3500. If you want more than that on the same day, you have to go to multiple branches. Each branch sets their own limit. If you hit a branch later in the day and it's been a busy day, you can often be out of luck. Conversely, if it's been a quiet day, your branch might allow you to withdraw more than their daily limit. On the other hand, if you order ahead of time (the next day is usually sufficient notice for up to $10k, 2 days is good for any amount I've ever needed) you can have whatever you need. 

So to the OP, you probably just hit the bank on what ended up to be a busy day, is all.


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## Andy Nonymous (Aug 20, 2005)

EdCopp, thanks. I miss being here, but besides being busy with real life, I'm falling off the trailing edge of technology (an antique laptop connected to the world over an ancient pair of phone wires in a place technology has no profit in reaching - no dsl, no cable, no cellular, and can't afford satellite). Besides teh interwebz consuming time I can better spend elsewhere, these handicaps they make it ever more difficult to be on-line. Firefox V2 and it's Java support is long past expired, and tends to freeze the system. I forsee the day when it won't access the web at all, and that's ok. There is more than enough to do without stretching myself beyond where I can put my real feet.


mekasmom said:


> Wealth vs. Mammon
> ...God's wealth multiplies.... 2 cows will turn into 15 cows over time..... mammon only give percentage increase like 2% on a savings account.


 Yup. And with inflation, that 2% "gain" of Mammon (before taxes), is actually a whopping loss of 4-10% (depending on which inflation "expert" you believe), of real value.



YuccaFlatsRanch said:


> I wonder if I go and ask for my money in silver coins if they will comply with my wishes.


Yucca, the US Mint still makes1oz silver dollars, some banks have them to sell as collector coins, but at a hefty premium above spot silver price. "Junk silver" coins are still legally accounted at face value, but because they are worth so much more than that, practically everyone that handles coins pulls them, so very, very few of them are actually in common circulation. I did get a silver dime in change a couple years ago - something I hadn't seen in my pocket since the late 60's. 

Here's another benefit of accepting old coins: 10 quarters for a pile of firewood is still $2.50 of declarable income, even if you burned 5 georges worth of chainsaw gas to make it. Kinda makes ya go "Hmmm".



logbuilder said:


> ....
> While Andy pointed out that anything can be store of value if we all agree upon it, the most commonly agreed upon over the last several thousand years has been physical gold and silver.
> 
> As Andy said, seek to gain an understanding and then act accordingly depending on your needs and abilities.


Robert, I appreciate the nod along with the reaffirmation of what should be common knowledge, and sadly, isn't. 
I caught a bit of C-Span this morning after chores, and Dennis Kucinich D-OH (sp?) took a minute to remind the House that the Law is Art1, Section 8, and it would behoove them to act on that rather than borrowing another few trillion (plus interest) to benefit the Fedsters. Makes for a great sound bite, but I think we both know how far that is going. It would surprise me less to have reprise of the 1935 law making it not legal to possess coin of certain types (to force use of the currency and attempt to justify it's "value"), especially once dollar deflation really kicks in, only this time of the white metal as well as the yellow. That doesn't leave many (long term) options, other than getting a head start on local barter *now,* while there is still a somewhat functional backup "medium" in use, and while the kinks can be worked out of expanding the network to cover as many people, products and services as may be needed. I'm not holding my breath for that either, because far too few see the need, yet, and the vast majority of the populace won't until it's too late.


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## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

Great write-up Andy.

I am trying to convert my non income producing stuff into something better. Looking at buying a tire changer soon, then a balancer. People will always need tires redone.


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## Pack Rat (Nov 9, 2006)

Bump, as a rebuttal to the 52 week savings plan.


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## wes917 (Sep 26, 2011)

Pack Rat said:


> Bump, as a rebuttal to the 52 week savings plan.


I wouldn't really say rebuttal, people still accept paper currency for silver, gold, platinum etc. so you still "need" to save to get those things.


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## Wildfire_Jewel (Nov 5, 2006)

I keep seeing several of you refer to "junk coins" WHAT is a junk coin?
Thanks


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## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

PrairieBelle22 said:


> But I did hear that a gallon of milk is supposed to go up to $7.00 per gallon.
> 
> B


Here 4 liters of milk which is 160 ounces is already $8 and more some other places.


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## wes917 (Sep 26, 2011)

Wildfire_Jewel said:


> I keep seeing several of you refer to "junk coins" WHAT is a junk coin?
> Thanks


"Junk silver coins" are coins with no collector value ie poor condition. The value is in the silver content of the coin rather than the collectability of the coin.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Cash is King. Until it's not. Right now, imho, the masses are still living with the illusion that our currency still has value. It does not. It's theoretical value goes down each month.

I still keep cash around, having learnt my lesson a few years back, during a hurricane episode. CC's wouldn't work, no out of town checks...

I wouldn't 'hoard' cash, as in paper money.... pulling boxes of nickels out of the bank ($100 each) is a win/win scenario. A nickel costs the govt almost a dime to make, and is worth ~6 to 7 cents... it is the only US 'currency' that actually has real value (melt value of the metal... even though you'd not want to melt them). IF, we have a bank holiday, and our currency gets revalued, a Benjamin would be traded in for a new $1 bill... you'd get a penny on a dollar... But, exchanging billions of coins? Doubtful.


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## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

One thing I realized a short while ago, and ties into what Andy covered earlier, is that when President Nixon took the US off of the Gold Standard back in the early 1970's gold was $35.00 an ounce and the national minimum wage was $1.65 an hour (21.212121X). In simple rounded math, an average entry level person working 40 hours a week could afford to buy about 2 ounces of gold per week. Today the minimum wage is around $8.50 per hour and gold is about $1700.00 an ounce (200.00X). 

When you hear the question "Why does it take two incomes to try and make ends meet, when it used to take one?" This is why! The value of your labor has been slashed since the 1970's. It now takes the entry level minimum wage earner about 10 weeks at 40 hours per week to earn enough to buy 2 ounces of gold. You really need 10 people working 40 hours a week to allow for the same income one person used to earn in the early 1970's.

This is not because gold has become scarce, but because the volume in dollars has become so excessive. The reality is minimum wage needs to be about $80.00 per hour to meet the value of labor that existed in the early 1970's.

While saving Dollars should be a piece of your reserves, keeping your assets in tangibles should be your larger portion of reserve. The simple saying: "If you don't hold it, you don't own it." should be your primary factor in evaluating what you consider reserves.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

DenMacII said:


> When you hear the question "Why does it take two incomes to try and make ends meet, when it used to take one?" This is why! The value of your labor has been slashed since the 1970's. It now takes the entry level minimum wage earner about 10 weeks at 40 hours per week to earn enough to buy 2 ounces of gold. You really need 10 people working 40 hours a week to allow for the same income one person used to earn in the early 1970's.


See, I believe that it is also our view of "necessities". My parents never paid for the use of a television beside buying the TV. They didn't have internet. They didn't have two cars, cell phones, $5 coffee, eating out multiple times a week, $150 shoes, etc. I would say that if I lived like my parents lived, I could live on half of what I currently spend.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Greeks are resorting to barter, or should I say, an alternative (almost cashless) currency.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/02/euro-greece-barter-poverty-crisis


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## Andy Nonymous (Aug 20, 2005)

*Wes,* Granted, you have a point, IF the 'savings' were really invested, but I think Pack Rat was right. As posted, the the 52 week program is an end in itself, and in my view putting aside currency (vapor ware) as 'savings' should already be a defunct plan. Personally, even if I had extra change to set aside (and I don't - every dollar I make is already accounted for in very rudimentary essential expenses and extortion (aka, taxes), I wouldn't buy gold - it's "value" would make it too hard to use in common trade. Junk would work far better, and is far more available and affordable for most, at least at present. It is also, by far better analysts than I, considered strongly undervalued, but that could change in a heartbeat.

*Texican,* I don't know the exact date (and it would take too long for me to google it over dialup while also trying to get into e-mail) but I think pennies before '88 were still real - it's the new ones that are only copper clad. 


DenMacII said:


> (Gold at ~$1700) is not because gold has become scarce, but because the volume in dollars has become so excessive. The reality is minimum wage needs to be about $80.00 per hour to meet the (real) value of labor that existed in the early 1970's.


 Just wait: the $ is still over valued in relation to most metals, meaning that the only folks making out OK, are the one in on the top of the scam - the rest are (all too literally) wage slaves. 

*Annsni,* you are also correct to a degree - the expectations of most (but not all) have crept up over the past 2 or 3 generations. However, in real terms, a year's worth of basic dial-up is currently only about 1/20th of an ounce of gold, or about 1 hour in 1970 wages. Yes, there are a lot of things that aren't "necessary", but the connectivity we now have over a much broader area is both a blessing and a curse - in some ways it can connect people and ideas that can make things happen far faster than ever would have before, and in others it can keep people from developing the sneaker community that can see them through the time when the DX community may not be available.

More math: This is gross oversimplification of a very complex problem, but to illustrate a point:


> If the 90% have only 10% of the $ available, and of that, 30% goes to corporations overseas, how much is left domestically after 5 years? (Year 1, .70 cents of each dollar spent; year 2, .49; year 3, .34; year 4, >.28, year 5, >.16) Can you see why it became necessary to go off a 'hard' standard? (the metals would have been gone long ago.) Can you see how it becomes "necessary" to print more? Can you see how every bit spent on something imported puts a hole in the local/domestic economy, leaving more people scavenging for the remaining crumbs? This is why the new/quasi barter in Geece is working, and will go far in saving their citizens and reviving their economy. PAY ATTENTION! (Then do something about it.) It can easily happen where you are, and you can help by getting yourself and others prepared.


Thanks, Gabriel for the link.


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## unregistered5595 (Mar 3, 2003)

Pennies are made of copper up to mid-season 1982 and before.


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