# Sexual Harassment evolves farther



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Just when you thought "No means no." we take it another step. Being tall is a form of sexual harassment.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/3973...&utm_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=dwbrand


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Really? I can't help but hope this is a joke, otherwise there are some seriously strange ideas floating around this campus.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Unless there is more to the story, that's just bizarre.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

I hate to ask, "What next?" because I'm afraid we'll find out!


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

nehimama said:


> I hate to ask, "What next?" because I'm afraid we'll find out!


Shhhh, don't tempt them!!


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

His PHYSICAL size scared her LOL


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

I was seriously accused of sexual harassment, because ...well not to brag, but I'm not a small man, and it sometimes presents visual issues (Don't get me wrong I am not abnormally HUGE, just quite large by normal standards). So someone because they kept choosing to stare claimed I was sexually harassing them. Lucky for me, the powers that be, did absolutely nothing except tell the person there was absolutely no sexual harassment involved on my part, but was on theirs if they kept making a issue of it. I mean seriously, like guys are allowed to bring a womans boobs to attention if they are huge....the world is crazy.


I'm a legal cpl owner btw, so they couldn't accuse me of illegally carrying a concealed weapon at least. ar ar.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

what the hell is this world coming to?


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

doesn't seem to be a whole heck of a lot of good lately sometimes does it?


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

I was investigated once when a woman turned me in. At lunch in workroom she sat in front of me wearing a man's shirt with top 3 buttons open. I told her to button her shirt.

Later I told the bosses they should have investigated her for harassment.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Yup. She was creating a hostile work environment.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

Been a while ago, the 80's, but a male student (and friend) in my photography glass was called out for his photographs of women always being from *above* them. The woman complaining said that he wanted to show that he was superior to women.

My friend replied that he was a touch over 6'7", welcome to HIS world. All he ever saw of women was the tops of their heads. He was photographing what he saw.

Mon


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Years ago (late 1980's or early 1990's), in the office I worked in was a small (side to side) hallway. Someone put one of the large printers/copiers in that hallway. Now if the person at the printer was next to it, a person could pass without touching them.

One day, this woman (admittedly we didn't care for each other) was at the printer but standing a foot away from it. I needed to go down the hallway and said "Excuse me" twice, when she didn't move I moved close, got her attention and asked if she could scoot in, she gave me a dirty look and stood there. I turned sideways with my butt towards her and pressing up against the other wall tried passing. Of course our butts touched.

2 days later I was sent to a sexual harassment class by my boss where the (female) instructor said it didn't matter if it actually was sexual harassment, if the "victim" thought it was, then it was.


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

I would of filed one against her. it was her who obviously was sexually harassing you by forcing you to go into a area that made the two of you touch...o wait, thats right woman evidently cannot be sexually harassed, like minorities evidently cannot be racist.... I say BS.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I worked at a fast food pizza place briefly when I was 18. I had been there about a month when I went in to get my paycheck on a day off, the manager was sitting at a booth with three friends, and he had the paychecks on the table. I walked up, greeted him, acknowledged his friends, and asked for my check. He pulled out four paychecks and set them aside (I know now they were the men that worked there) and loudly said, "the rest of these are no lay, no pay". He and his buddies laughed and laughed. They were still laughing when I walked away. I contacted his boss who owned the place, and was told it was a "joke". No one thought it was a joke after I contacted NYS Labor. They were fined, and the manager fired, after the manager's buddies admitted it had happened, and had happened before.

Was I sexually harassed?


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Don't know if sexually harassed, but for sure not treated respectfully. By definition and your description, yes.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bob M. said:


> I would of filed one against her. it was her who obviously was sexually harassing you by forcing you to go into a area that made the two of you touch...o wait, thats right woman evidently cannot be sexually harassed, like minorities evidently cannot be racist.... I say BS.


I worked with a gay guy that wasn't out, it was the early 90s, corporate professional office, and the assistant director of the facility (a woman) sexually harassed him. It was horrible, she called him at home, made him come to her office, all manner of harassment, until he'd had enough and was forced to come out when he filed work place grievance against her. Three other men came forward and said she'd done the same thing to them, two of them had slept with her. She was fired, and her husband divorced her. 

Yes, women can be sexual harassers as well.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

frogmammy said:


> Been a while ago, the 80's, but a male student (and friend) in my photography glass was called out for his photographs of women always being from *above* them. The woman complaining said that he wanted to show that he was superior to women.
> 
> My friend replied that he was a touch over 6'7", welcome to HIS world. All he ever saw of women was the tops of their heads. He was photographing what he saw.
> 
> Mon


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

I'm not really sure what the rest of these are no lay no pay would mean frankly. was he insinuating the other guys should sleep with him? Was he saying that you were sleeping with the boss and that is why you were getting aid
? if he was, is that really sexual harassment, or just being wrong or retarded?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Three other men came forward and said she'd done the same thing to them, two of them had slept with her.


By your view, weren't those guys raped? I mean, they had sex against their will, with a person that held power over them. Right? At least sexual assault, wouldn't you think?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> By your view, weren't those guys raped? I mean, they had sex against their will, with a person that held power over them. Right? At least sexual assault, wouldn't you think?


I don't believe she was charged with rape or sexual assault. It would depend on the prosecutor, and if the men actually consented to sex. I don't know the details of the case.

ETA: It was also the early 90s.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Life sure was a lot more fun with more laughter before PC.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

How do you figure that WM? Before PCs these things happened and few were the wiser.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

We could express humor before PC and etc.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

you can say that again WM. much more fun! not easy for women who are looking for a companion these days either. the men are all so skittish. you know they want to stop and talk but they're scared to. I don't blame them. jmo! ~Georgia


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't believe she was charged with rape or sexual assault. It would depend on the prosecutor, and if the men actually consented to sex. I don't know the details of the case.
> 
> ETA: It was also the early 90s.


I was asking your opinion. By your version, the guys went along with the sex, but must have regretted it. Otherwise how would anyone know?
Stuff from the 1990s different from today?
Should the ladies that accepted invites to Weinstein's suite be ignored because it was the 1990s, they went there willingly and they profited greatly?
Should Trump stating, in the 1990s, that women were so eager to be close to him that they let him do a crotch grab, be put into the context that , "Well, it was a different time."?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Yes.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> I was asking your opinion. By your version, the guys went along with the sex, but must have regretted it. Otherwise how would anyone know?
> Stuff from the 1990s different from today?
> Should the ladies that accepted invites to Weinstein's suite be ignored because it was the 1990s, they went there willingly and they profited greatly?
> Should Trump stating, in the 1990s, that women were so eager to be close to him that they let him do a crotch grab, be put into the context that , "Well, it was a different time."?


You still don't understand consent, and in my opinion you don't want to, for whatever reason. 

It's also my opinion that you just want to argue, and you can do that all by yourself.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> We could express humor before PC and etc.


Do you like being laughed at? Made fun of in front of other people? Mocked just because someone is in a position of power? Or did you do those things to others when "We could express humor before PC and etc."?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> You still don't understand consent, and in my opinion you don't want to, for whatever reason.
> 
> It's also my opinion that you just want to argue, and you can do that all by yourself.


How can I understand your view of consent when you won't state it? I've asked for it a couple times, but all I get is a side step. I understand the various degrees of consent. While I expect you to always come to the aid of other women and anyone in the LGBTQ, I found it interesting in your story of supporting the Gay dude, you mentioned a couple heterosexual guys that were apparently coerced by their superior to have sex. Just wondered if straight dudes can, in your mind, be pressured into sex and that by our definition is rape. Right?
Those examples are fairly straight forward. Sorry if you think by trying to see if you would support guys in your expanded definition of sexual assault. Also wondered if that woman gets a pass because it was 1990s, then do guys get the same pass?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't believe she was charged


I don't believe anyone asked if she was "charged".



Irish Pixie said:


> It's also *my opinion* that you just want to argue, and you can do that all by yourself.


Where have you heard that line before? 
SSDD, one more time?
It's the Never Ending Story.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I don't believe anyone asked if she was "charged".
> 
> 
> Where have you heard that line before?
> ...


Your entire post is opinion, argument, and insulting. Triple play.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Here’s a good article, written a year or so ago, prior to a women’s march. I think the author nailed it. 

http://www.familyfoundation.org/blog/a-day-without-whiney-women


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Was I sexually harassed?


That's a matter of opinion.
Regardless, you rushed to report it.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's a matter of opinion.
> Regardless, you rushed to report it.


Yes, I reported it. And NYS Labor agreed with me, the manager was fired and owner fined.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Your entire post is opinion, argument, and insulting. Triple play.


It was factual, and actually addressed the topic.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Yes, I reported it. And NYS Labor agreed with me, the manager was fired and owner fined.


Patterns never change.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Here’s a good article, written a year or so ago, prior to a women’s march. I think the author nailed it.
> 
> http://www.familyfoundation.org/blog/a-day-without-whiney-women


The blog was divisive and sad, in my opinion.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

My experience when dancing with tall men is that they look over your head but they must have weak arms as the long arms tend to slip lower and lower down your back. "Accidentally" stepping on their foot gives them the strength to hold up their arm. Shorter men tend to spend their time staring at your cleavage as they have the perfect eye level view. Even when you are wearing a high neck blouse. Must be the bumps under the fabric that fires up their imagination as there is nothing else to see. Chucking them under the chin tends to stop that. And of course just dumping them in the middle of the dance floor is always an option.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Exactly. Deal with the problem instead of whining 20 years later.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Here’s a good article, written a year or so ago, prior to a women’s march. I think the author nailed it.
> 
> http://www.familyfoundation.org/blog/a-day-without-whiney-women


Excellent article. A victim would no doubt see it as divisive, and I suppose it is, it separates the whiners from the winners


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mnn2501 said:


> Excellent article. A victim would no doubt see it as divisive, and I suppose it is, it separates the whiners from the winners


Is that what you got out of it? I didn't. It's not about whiners and winners, it's about separating women into enemy camps, at least that's how I see it. 

I can understand how some men would like to keep them divided tho, easier to control if they aren't united.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Yea, the times they are a changing.

At one time, we could face the truth even in the rawest form. Hence the not uncommon bumper sticker, " Gas, ass or grass. No one rides for free."

But now, apparently, just being a big person frightens a small person because they see this disparity in size makes them vulnerable. I doubt that would come to mind except that so many girls are taught that every man is out to rape them, if they had the opportunity. Being large gives that opportunity.

How could we have strayed so far?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Acquired victimhood mindset


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> Yea, the times they are a changing.
> 
> At one time, we could face the truth even in the rawest form. Hence the not uncommon bumper sticker, " Gas, ass or grass. No one rides for free."
> 
> ...


You said "person" in your first sentence of the third paragraph, I think that was an excellent word choice.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

As I read the OP link, I like the idea!! So, starting in a few minutes here, I'm making a batch of no bake cookies, and eating until I'm so big women just can't say no to me!!

I'm thinking 400 pounds or so. That's about the size of some of the men on this forum that always talk about their charm and sexcapades.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Clem said:


> As I read the OP link, I like the idea!! So, starting in a few minutes here, I'm making a batch of no bake cookies, and eating until I'm so big women just can't say no to me!!
> 
> I'm thinking 400 pounds or so. That's about the size of some of the men on this forum that always talk about their charm and sexcapades.


  Clem, you just have a way of making my day with just a few words.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> Is that what you got out of it? I didn't.
> ......


Yeah, I believe I predicted that.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Clem said:


> As I read the OP link, I like the idea!! So, starting in a few minutes here, I'm making a batch of no bake cookies, and eating until I'm so big women just can't say no to me!!
> 
> I'm thinking 400 pounds or so. That's about the size of some of the men on this forum that always talk about their charm and sexcapades.


LOL. Careful, there are some big woman (and some that just think they're omnipotent) too.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I am not sure the kind of big in the OP is a cookie binge type of big.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mnn2501 said:


> Yeah, I believe I predicted that.


You don't think some men would want women divided and angry with each other? You don't see the control angle? 

I do.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

haypoint said:


> I was asking your opinion. By your version, the guys went along with the sex, but must have regretted it. Otherwise how would anyone know?
> Stuff from the 1990s different from today?
> Should the ladies that accepted invites to Weinstein's suite be ignored because it was the 1990s, they went there willingly and they profited greatly?
> Should Trump stating, in the 1990s, that women were so eager to be close to him that they let him do a crotch grab, be put into the context that , "Well, it was a different time."?


Although the question wasn't directed at me, I am female and feel capable of answering your question. 

I feel those men very well may have regretted their decision and if they were coerced into having sex with their female boss, she should suffer the exact same fate as any man who abused his position of authority. 

Sexual assault happens to gay and straight people of both genders and anyone of either gender who abuse their position of authority should be punished exactly the same. 

The only problem I've encountered, when investigating such things at the corporate level, was getting men to talk about it. They know they've been the victim of sexual harassment or sexual assault but too many people buy into the belief that men can't perform unless they're a willing participant so men assume that their claims will not be taken seriously.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> You said "person" in your first sentence of the third paragraph, I think that was an excellent word choice.


Just


Irish Pixie said:


> You don't think some men would want women divided and angry with each other? You don't see the control angle?
> 
> I do.


I don't but I see that you do. That's just another facet of the divided world you believe in.

I don't think the world is flat, I think we did land on the moon, there is no Bigfoot and there are no men seeking to pit one woman against another as some sort of control angle.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

wr said:


> Although the question wasn't directed at me, I am female and feel capable of answering your question.
> 
> I feel those men very well may have regretted their decision and if they were coerced into having sex with their female boss, she should suffer the exact same fate as any man who abused his position of authority.
> 
> ...


You are welcome to jump in any time. But might help if you backed up a bit and included the whole connected conversation. Like way back where I P mentioned the fact that it was back in the '90s. That is the context of my comments.

Interesting that you used the same excuse for the dudes as is used by the gals, " I didn't think I'd be believed."

I think we are in a troubling time. In the past no one was believed, now everyone is believed. I fail to see the improvement.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> Just
> 
> I don't but I see that you do. That's just another facet of the divided world you believe in.
> 
> I don't think the world is flat, I think we did land on the moon, there is no Bigfoot and there are no men seeking to pit one woman against another as some sort of control angle.


I never said one woman against another, I said groups of women. You can't think of a single instance, you said "there are *no* men seeking to pit one woman against another as some sort of control angle.", where men would want to take advantage of dividing women into groups? The first (and largest) is in the political arena, and we've seen it for the last three years.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Here’s a good article, written a year or so ago, prior to a women’s march. I think the author nailed it.
> 
> http://www.familyfoundation.org/blog/a-day-without-whiney-women


Good article that made a lot of very valid points.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

haypoint said:


> You are welcome to jump in any time. But might help if you backed up a bit and included the whole connected conversation. Like way back where I P mentioned the fact that it was back in the '90s. That is the context of my comments.
> 
> Interesting that you used the same excuse for the dudes as is used by the gals, " I didn't think I'd be believed."
> 
> I think we are in a troubling time. In the past no one was believed, now everyone is believed. I fail to see the improvement.


I'm not a big fan of double standards and my response related more to the 90's, which is when I in more HR related positions vs my current professional focus of business development.

I investigated cases of sexual harassment from both genders, gays and straight at that time and feel all need to be treated equally and those who breached the rules, needed to be addresses. Even in the 90's, workplaces had company handbooks that covered things like violations of positions of authority, sexual harassment and sexual misconduct. 

My comment relating to men was a bit different than the comment you assign to women. Many assume that men who don't want to participate in sexual relations can't achieve an erection so it is assumed that by participating, they were ready willing and able.

Men are often unwilling to come forward because they feel by coming forward, they will be judged as a willing participant and they are reluctant to subject themselves to scrutiny over being bullied by a woman.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Irish Pixie said:


> I never said one woman against another, I said groups of women. You can't think of a single instance, you said "there are *no* men seeking to pit one woman against another as some sort of control angle.", where men would want to take advantage of dividing women into groups? The first (and largest) is in the political arena, and we've seen it for the last three years.


You're correct, the liberals love having divided people, that way they can play to the victims.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/t...KRE8n4oB9ZNiif66aF-OK8am5OcIqnFIrGTz0iioaAa6w

How Twitter judges current and distant past violations, 90s included.


wr said:


> .Men are often unwilling to come forward because they feel by coming forward, they will be judged as a willing participant and they are reluctant to subject themselves to scrutiny over being bullied by a woman.


Naw, I think you are wrong. Besides, since I'm not allowed to understand what rape is like from a female perspective, I cannot allow you to speak on a subject you know nothing about, sexual assault on reluctant males. Instead of fear over others discovering their being coerced into sex with a person that holds power over them, some (many) males should have fear that other males might discover that they had a window of opportunity to get some legal sex and was hesitant.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

haypoint said:


> https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/t...KRE8n4oB9ZNiif66aF-OK8am5OcIqnFIrGTz0iioaAa6w
> 
> How Twitter judges current and distant past violations, 90s included.
> 
> ...


Were you ever physically sexual assaulted? I think maybe that would enlighten us on how well you might understand how it feels to be sexually assaulted.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mnn2501 said:


> You're correct, the liberals love having divided people, that way they can play to the victims.


You know as well as I do that I didn't even imply one party over another, but I am impressed you're willing to at least think about what I said.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Acquired victimhood mindset


Some make it a lifestyle.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Were you ever physically sexual assaulted? I think maybe that would enlighten us on how well you might understand how it feels to be sexually assaulted.


I've been assaulted and I've had sex with women that I really didn't want to have sex with. But I wouldn't pretend to know how every man might feel or how every woman might feel. I think you missed what I wrote, intentionally or mistakenly? If you were raped or if I were raped, that isn't going to enlighten anyone. Except perhaps a voyeur.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> I've been assaulted and I've had sex with women that I really didn't want to have sex with. But I wouldn't pretend to know how every man might feel or how every woman might feel. I think you missed what I wrote, intentionally or mistakenly? If you were raped or if I were raped, that isn't going to enlighten anyone. Except perhaps a voyeur.


Are you seriously comparing rape to consensual sex you weren't into? Seriously?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Are you seriously comparing rape to consensual sex you weren't into? Seriously?


No, I was lumping sexual assault into the same basket with rape. Pretty sure that the Liberals are calling being large as sexual assault, so you'll have to excuse me as the ink of definitions is still wet. Rape is sexual assault. College professors are calling wolf whistles sexual assault. A few posts ago, I tried, unsuccessfully, to get you to define your stance. Sort of complicated with a moving target.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

haypoint said:


> I've been assaulted and I've had sex with women that I really didn't want to have sex with. But I wouldn't pretend to know how every man might feel or how every woman might feel. I think you missed what I wrote, intentionally or mistakenly? If you were raped or if I were raped, that isn't going to enlighten anyone. Except perhaps a voyeur.


I missed nothing. You just highlighted that you can't really understand how a man or a woman would not report sexual harassment because you yourself have not experienced it. A simple fact.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> No, I was lumping sexual assault into the same basket with rape. Pretty sure that the Liberals are calling being large as sexual assault, so you'll have to excuse me as the ink of definitions is still wet. Rape is sexual assault. College professors are calling wolf whistles sexual assault. A few posts ago, I tried, unsuccessfully, to get you to define your stance. Sort of complicated with a moving target.


It's not "liberals" it's some "not using their brains correctly people" from a college, to which party they are registered isn't relevant. It's very rarely relevant to anything, either party.

The rest of your post is just your opinion, and I can't tell you exactly how I feel about it, except to say you're absolutely wrong.

No, you asked me my definition of consent. The fact that you don't understand what consent is your problem, not mine.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

haypoint said:


> https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/t...KRE8n4oB9ZNiif66aF-OK8am5OcIqnFIrGTz0iioaAa6w
> 
> How Twitter judges current and distant past violations, 90s included.
> 
> ...


I didn't project my opinions on men at all. My comments was based on HR interviews with men based regarding sexual harassment claims and the reasons they presented for refusing to further pursue action. 

I don't think we have to look as far as twitter to know that some judge men and women who've claimed they were sexually assaulted, quite harshly.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Are you seriously comparing rape to consensual sex you weren't into? Seriously?


Catch up. In response to a question if I had ever ben sexually assaulted, I admitted to being a victim of assault and non-consensual sex.
Perhaps it is a question of degrees. I had my cancerous prostate removed, but don't consider myself a Cancer Survivor. I had sex with women that I didn't want to have sex with, but don't consider myself a victim of sexual assault or rape. From recent news reports, women that had sex with guys that promised them a glamorous life, made their millions now admit to being sexually assaulted decades ago.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I would use the word “claim” rather than”admit.”


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

Irish Pixie said:


> Do you like being laughed at? Made fun of in front of other people? Mocked just because someone is in a position of power? Or did you do those things to others when "We could express humor before PC and etc."?


I know I don't...but that in itself doesn't mean sexual harassment, anymore than if he were to do it to as man. plenty of people get laughed at and made fun of in front of other people and mocked merely because they are in a position of power.


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

Irish Pixie said:


> You don't think some men would want women divided and angry with each other? You don't see the control angle?
> 
> I do.


When you are a hammer you see every problem as a nail right?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Some folks see every flirtation as a sexual assault.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Bob you say, (plenty of people get laughed at or mocked mearly because they are in a position of power). How do you come to that conclusion? I bet nobody mocked A Capone, or JP Morgan, or H Ford, or JP Getty, or any other persons with wealth and power and didn't receive some sort of rebuke from those persons. Specially Al.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Alice, Only women see flirtations that way. OR at least the term Sexual assult is understood differently by the sexes.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

What about the young man who claims Kevin Spacey assaulted him?


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

for over 3 minutes of fondling, in a bar, after lying about his age ? That one?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Nope, not all women think everything is an assault. 

I don’t think a pat on the fanny is assault. I don’t think some farmer coming on to me on the dance floor is assault. I don’t think an overy long hug is an assault.

Just my dos pesos.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> I worked at a fast food pizza place briefly when I was 18. I had been there about a month when I went in to get my paycheck on a day off, the manager was sitting at a booth with three friends, and he had the paychecks on the table. I walked up, greeted him, acknowledged his friends, and asked for my check. He pulled out four paychecks and set them aside (I know now they were the men that worked there) and loudly said, "the rest of these are no lay, no pay". He and his buddies laughed and laughed. They were still laughing when I walked away. I contacted his boss who owned the place, and was told it was a "joke". No one thought it was a joke after I contacted NYS Labor. They were fined, and the manager fired, after the manager's buddies admitted it had happened, and had happened before.
> 
> Was I sexually harassed?


Nope, it was a joke. A rather good one at that. Lots of people actually have a good sense of humor. Sadly, others do not share that particular gene.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

And, yes, the fondling in a bar with Spacey. Why didn’t he just walk away, for heaven’s sake? Or grab the hand out of his fly and bend Spacey’s thumb backwards all the way to his wrist?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Nope, it was a joke. A rather good one at that. Lots of people actually have a good sense of humor. Sadly, others do not share that particular gene.


It wasn't a joke to the 18 year old woman who lived it, or the NYS Dept of Labor. 

It _was_ funny when the manager was fired and the owner fined. So must be I do have that particular gene.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mnn2501 said:


> You're correct, the liberals love having divided people, that way they can play to the victims.


Wait i thought liberals were disorganized rabble.
isnt it the conservatives that you mean?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Nope, not all women think everything is an assault.
> 
> I don’t think a pat on the fanny is assault. I don’t think some farmer coming on to me on the dance floor is assault. I don’t think an overy long hug is an assault.
> 
> Just my dos pesos.


I don't know any women who considers those things sexual assault, and by indicating they are you are trivializing real sexual assault. Is that your intention?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> Were you ever physically sexual assaulted? I think maybe that would enlighten us on how well you might understand how it feels to be sexually assaulted.


UMM
Isnt rape a crime of power not sex?
So why must someone be "Sexually" assaulted to understand a assault?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Yes. Like the distinction of “hate crime.”

Redundant, repetitive, and superfluous.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> UMM
> Isnt rape a crime of power not sex?
> So why must someone be "Sexually" assaulted to understand a assault?


I can't speak for you but being sexually assaulted is very different than just a physical assault. My brother gave me a black eye. That is very different than being raped.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> Catch up. In response to a question if I had ever ben sexually assaulted, I admitted to being a victim of assault and non-consensual sex.
> Perhaps it is a question of degrees. I had my cancerous prostate removed, but don't consider myself a Cancer Survivor. I had sex with women that I didn't want to have sex with, but don't consider myself a victim of sexual assault or rape. From recent news reports, women that had sex with guys that promised them a glamorous life, made their millions now admit to being sexually assaulted decades ago.


Lets break this down, did you willingly have sex (consent) with women even if you weren't really into it? Or did the women force you to have sex against your will?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> It wasn't a joke to the 18 year old woman who lived it, or the NYS Dept of Labor.
> 
> It _was_ funny when the manager was fired and the owner fined. So must be I do have that particular gene.


 The gene that would ruin a mans life if she can?
A WOMAN would have had a comeback just as good, like "Oh did you finally grow a pair?"
In a Mans world a guy that did what you did is called a sniveling rat and seldom does well.
He usually gets non sexually assaulted, something you will never know the Terror of, because you know if it isnt rape a woman it just doesnt count to you.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> I can't speak for you but being sexually assaulted is very different than just a physical assault. My brother gave me a black eye. That is very different than being raped.


Were you in fear of your life?
My aunt kissed me without consent was that rape?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Sexual assault. Yup. Yup. Call the media.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Oh and get this I was a minor at the time!


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> Were you in fear of your life?
> My aunt kissed me without consent was that rape?


Your attempt and others, to trivilize sexual assault is noted and filed. No need to carry on a discussion so that you can belittle those that have experienced it. Carry on.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

There are some women that could be ganged raped at 9 am, building a cabin at 9:30, and butchering hogs at 5. All while holding down a full time job, kids, and having a sense of superiority over all the other mere mortal women around her. Or so she assures herself.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Lets break this down, did you willingly have sex (consent) with women even if you weren't really into it? Or did the women force you to have sex against your will?


Depends on who's asking. Just like those 30 year old claims against Weinstein, sports stars and politicians.

If I thought my job was at risk if I didn't have sex, but I didn't want to, isn't that against my will?
There are degrees. If you go to a hotel room with a man you met in the hotel bar, get undressed, climb into bed, but then decide you don't want to have sex, but have some fear that if you stop it at this point, you'd be assaulted. So, you lay there, silently, and have sex, that is sex without consent, against your wishes/will.

Wouldn't you agree that all sex without consent is rape and you don't have to scream or struggle to have it be rape?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> Depends on who's asking. Just like those 30 year old claims against Weinstein, sports stars and politicians.
> 
> If I thought my job was at risk if I didn't have sex, but I didn't want to, isn't that against my will?
> There are degrees. If you go to a hotel room with a man you met in the hotel bar, get undressed, climb into bed, but then decide you don't want to have sex, but have some fear that if you stop it at this point, you'd be assaulted. So, you lay there, silently, and have sex, that is sex without consent, against your wishes/will.
> ...


You were quite specific that it was you that did this, so I'm addressing what you said.



haypoint said:


> Catch up. In response to a question if I had ever ben sexually assaulted, *I admitted to being a victim of assault and non-consensual sex.*
> Perhaps it is a question of degrees. I had my cancerous prostate removed, but don't consider myself a Cancer Survivor. I had sex with women that I didn't want to have sex with, but don't consider myself a victim of sexual assault or rape. From recent news reports, women that had sex with guys that promised them a glamorous life, made their millions now admit to being sexually assaulted decades ago.


So we'll try this again: "Lets break this down, did you willingly have sex (consent) with women even if you weren't really into it? Or did the women force you to have sex against your will?"


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> You were quite specific that it was you that did this, so I'm addressing what you said.
> 
> So we'll try this again: "Lets break this down, did you willingly have sex (consent) with women even if you weren't really into it? Or did the women force you to have sex against your will?"


I'll type slowly. "If I thought my job was at risk if I didn't have sex, but I didn't want to, isn't that against my will?" By your standard, is that just I wasn't into it or is that against my will? Is fear of a job loss for me greater or lesser than fear of not getting picked in a staring role in a movie for Weinstein's accusers? Coercion has degrees.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> I'll type slowly. "If I thought my job was at risk if I didn't have sex, but I didn't want to, isn't that against my will?" By your standard, is that just I wasn't into it or is that against my will? Is fear of a job loss for me greater or lesser than fear of not getting picked in a staring role in a movie for Weinstein's accusers? Coercion has degrees.


We're discussing consent right now, isn't that what you've been going on about for a couple pages? Can you answer my question? Then we'll move on to the other issues, the basis of all rape and sexual assault is consent.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Having a discussion that doesn’t flow the way you want, painterwife, isn’t trivializing. It is having a sense of humor and the ability to discuss a serious topic without going into Chicken Little mode. You made my previous point. 

The media is indoctrinating their sheep to respond that way.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Having a discussion that doesn’t flow the way you want, painterwife, isn’t trivializing. It is having a sense of humor and the ability to discuss a serious topic without going into Chicken Little mode. You made my previous point.
> 
> The media is indoctrinating their sheep to respond that way.


So you say. I don't see the humor in belittling victims of sexual assault. That is not discussion in any real way shape or form.

It is what perpetrators do to victims to keep victimizing them.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I was not belittling. I don’t think that word means what you think it means.


disparage, denigrate, run down, deprecate, depreciate, downgrade, play down, trivialize, minimize, make light of, pooh-pooh, treat lightly, scoff at, sneer at; _formal derogate_;


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I TOTALLY understand that this is a personal issue for you.

Understanding that does NOT mean that I have to restrict my side of the discussion. I have not and will not attack you.

Your comment that the other point of view “is noted and filed” implies that you feel some sort of power when doing that. It sounds threatening. Is that what you meant to do?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> We're discussing consent right now, isn't that what you've been going on about for a couple pages? Can you answer my question? Then we'll move on to the other issues, the basis of all rape and sexual assault is consent.


I've answered your consent question. It isn't as cut and dried as you'd like it to be. Sure there are situations that are clearly a lack of consent. We agree on that, I think. But there are far more situations where consent was implied that allows the participant to later (the next day or the next decade) deny consent.
No means no is easy. Quid pro quo is a bit tougher. People of power, both male and female have for thousands of years gained sexual access by virtue of their power and/or influence. We both understand what a casting couch is. You might understand what "paying your dues" means. Movie stars and hot dogs have this in common: you might enjoy them, but you don't want to know how they are made.

In your mind, when I had sex with a woman that held the power to hire or fire me, that I accepted this "trade" did I give consent? In your mind, when women allow a film director to grope them, because it changes their career, giving consent? Must consent be verbal?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> I've answered your consent question. It isn't as cut and dried as you'd like it to be. Sure there are situations that are clearly a lack of consent. We agree on that, I think. But there are far more situations where consent was implied that allows the participant to later (the next day or the next decade) deny consent.
> No means no is easy. Quid pro quo is a bit tougher. People of power, both male and female have for thousands of years gained sexual access by virtue of their power and/or influence. We both understand what a casting couch is. You might understand what "paying your dues" means. Movie stars and hot dogs have this in common: you might enjoy them, but you don't want to know how they are made.
> 
> In your mind, when I had sex with a woman that held the power to hire or fire me, that I accepted this "trade" did I give consent? In your mind, when women allow a film director to grope them, because it changes their career, giving consent? Must consent be verbal?


OK. Carry on.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Implied consent seems to be a big problem.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

LOL; you can never be accused of harassment if you only play with the women who ask for your help. 

I too have been "harassed", but I suspected no more than women who felt the urge. Since I was married at the time of those encounters I politely begged off and ran. Back when I was single no one ever heard of "harassment". 

Some of the encounters were just downright funny. In one case I was way out in the country interviewing a woman of perhaps 45, I being about thirty at the time. It was hot as blazes, miles from town, and as I prepared to leave I asked the lady if I might have a glass of water. She smiled, turned to a cabinet, poured cold water from a pitcher in the fridge and walked over to me, pushing her boobs up against me and holding the glass so that I had to reach around her to grasp it. I was new to that job but knew that such encounters were forbidden even if I was single. I must have blushed beet red because the gal laughed and handed me the glass. I stepped back, gulped the water and took off like as spotted ape. I did remember to thank her.

A buddy of mine, seven years older, delivered groceries for a store in Tulsa during WWII, sixteen years old at the time. He had a regular stop each Saturday where he knocked on the door, shouted "groceries" and the lady would come let him in. On this day he shouted "groceries" and the lady called back "door's open, come in." He did, walking from the back door to the kitchen. At that point the lady, nude, walked in and took him in hand.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Having to educate a couple of generations that “No means no!,” there is obviously a problem. 

Wait. 

I typed that, and then had another thought. 

This isn’t a new issue. We can talk it to pieces, but not much will change. Humans do what humans do. 

I grew up in an era of hope for The Age of Aquarius. It didn’t happen. It’s not going to happen.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> OK. Carry on.


I asked you questions in this last post, as I have in previous posts. I'd really like to read your answers. I know, it leads you to say that there are various degrees and perhaps that your rage against non-consensual sex is gender biased. Perhaps not.

Is all non-consensual sex sexual assault? Is all sexual assault rape? Are unwanted words of a sexual nature sexual assault?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

(I am assuming that is not addressing me.)


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

mnn2501 said:


> Years ago (late 1980's or early 1990's), in the office I worked in was a small (side to side) hallway. Someone put one of the large printers/copiers in that hallway. Now if the person at the printer was next to it, a person could pass without touching them.
> 
> One day, this woman (admittedly we didn't care for each other) was at the printer but standing a foot away from it. I needed to go down the hallway and said "Excuse me" twice, when she didn't move I moved close, got her attention and asked if she could scoot in, she gave me a dirty look and stood there. I turned sideways with my butt towards her and pressing up against the other wall tried passing. Of course our butts touched.
> 
> 2 days later I was sent to a sexual harassment class by my boss where the (female) instructor said it didn't matter if it actually was sexual harassment, if the "victim" thought it was, then it was.


Did you enjoy that touching hahaha
I bet she did.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Yes, I agree she did. Power.


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## Espiritus (Jun 21, 2017)

I'm almost 65 years old. I clearly remember the days when my close friend, who was endowed with very large breasts, wouldn't walk to the store until she looked to see which men were hanging out on the sidewalk. These men believed they had the right to talk vulgar and suggestively to a twelve year old...

One would find a reason to reach over her and rub against her; the other's would laugh. It was all a big joke. When her mother and father were told, they advised her to avoid the men, to "not bring attention to herself" and she did. A twelve year old.

She had no recourse. From our current days we can say all the things her parents could/should have done, but the fact is that wasn't how it was done in the 50s and 60s and most of the 70s.

So if we are now standing tall and strong in our willingness to believe and defend accounts that occured many years ago, it's because we women experienced it. 

Enough is enough. 

I can sympathize with the confusion both sides feel over not knowing when consent is expressed, implied, or withdrawn. I understand that some women believe they can retroactively withdraw consent. Therein lies the problem. 

I don't have an answer, but I raised three boys to become respectful men and a daughter who will stand up for herself and others.

It helps that my children all knew that I would stand up for them. Probably because I couldn't stand up for my friend...


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Lady, even sixty five years ago my father would have broken some heads over the behavior you describe. Further, I would have done so when I raised daughters, and I know men now who would do the same. 

What the devil is going on?


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

and arms and hands


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Some folks see every flirtation as a sexual assault.


Yes.
Yes they do.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> *Your attempt and others*, to trivilize sexual assault is *noted and filed*.


As are your (and other's) attempts to always start a fight over *every* little thing.
Note and file that one too.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> Your attempt and others, to trivilize sexual assault is noted and filed. No need to carry on a discussion so that you can belittle those that have experienced it. Carry on.


You should quit carrying on conversations to aggrandize it. Im am not trying to belittle anyone but you seem to want to state nothing is as important as rape.
In truth rape its self is a minor inconvenience ,its all the stuff that surronds it that becomes important.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> You should quit carrying on conversations to aggrandize it. Im am not trying to belittle anyone but you seem to want to state nothing is as important as rape.
> In truth rape its self is a minor inconvenience ,its all the stuff that surronds it that becomes important.


A minor inconvenience? Really?

You must not know anyone who has experienced such a violation that has physical, emotional, and spiritual effects of great magnitude.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> You should quit carrying on conversations to aggrandize it. Im am not trying to belittle anyone but you seem to want to state nothing is as important as rape.
> In truth rape its self is a minor inconvenience ,its all the stuff that surronds it that becomes important.


Can you please clarify your statement and explain how you feel that rape is a minor inconvenience and what stuff makes it important.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I *think* he is differentiating between the few minutes the act takes and the mental/physical toll that may last a lifetime.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I *think* he is differentiating between the few minutes the act takes and the mental/physical toll that may last a lifetime.


You may well be right but that is like saying that a long fall isn't a problem, the sudden stop is. It becomes a distinction without a difference.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Kinda funny, were arguing about something that LIKELY? will never happen to any of US.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

FarmboyBill said:


> Kinda funny, were arguing about something that LIKELY? will never happen to any of US.


What about our children and grandchildren?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

FarmboyBill said:


> Kinda funny, were arguing about something that LIKELY? will never happen to any of US.


One in 5 women has been raped. Maybe you as a man thinks that is inconsequential but I sure don't.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

IndyDave said:


> A minor inconvenience? Really?
> 
> You must not know anyone who has experienced such a violation that has physical, emotional, and spiritual effects of great magnitude.


 Part of the problem is that I am struggling against at least two people that will not define the terms of what a rape is. 
I’m sorry but in the bigger view of life isn’t a but grab or boob squeeze really a minor thing?
How about a husband that initiates penetration after his wife has fell asleep? 
In fact even in all out rape in the way most people think of it with penetration and violence the actual sex is a minor part. 
What all of these things have in common is the accoutrements ,
Fear, terror , pain ,worry about pregnancy ,worry about disease ,disrespect and importantly the thinking about it later etc .the actual thing most think of as rape , the penatration is a small portion.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

painterswife said:


> One in 5 women has been raped. Maybe you as a man thinks that is inconsequential but I sure don't.


Sorry, but that figure includes many things that are not actually rape.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> Part of the problem is that I am struggling against at least two people that will not define the terms of what a rape is.
> I’m sorry but in the bigger view of life isn’t a but grab or boob squeeze really a minor thing?
> How about a husband that initiates penetration after his wife has fell asleep?
> In fact even in all out rape in the way most people think of it with penetration and violence the actual sex is a minor part.
> ...


First, I fail to understand why this has to be a struggle.

Second, I see where conflating anything and everything derived from impure thoughts with no real boundaries between levels of offense is an issue, it isn't the central issue.

Third, if the actual rape weren't such a problem, the victim wouldn't start fighting and screaming until the next day or next week rather than while the attack was taking place. Regardless of how one parses the immediate, short, and long term effects, in my reckoning it is worth a bullet in the head regardless of how one may choose to go all Sigmund Freud about it after the fact.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Rummaging around the internet, I found this. It seems interesting but I will probably have to work through it a few times before really starting to form any conclusions.

http://behavioralscientist.org/what...istic-teaches-us-about-sexual-assault-policy/


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

I suspect that there is a vast difference between one end of the "rape" spectrum and the other. Some strong minded women can shake up an assault, heal and get on with their lives while others carry the effects to the grave. Rape is a physical assault, little to do with sex and often involves brutality. That reasoning makes me think that like PTSD in the military, some get it and some don't. Surely some PHD has studied this?

Edit to add:
Ah, so! It has been studied. Further, the researcher classified as rape those sexual encounters where the women were out on hot dates that got hotter than anticipated.
I recall a cad, who worked where I did, who reported that his latest conquest broke down and cried "What have I done, what have I done?". Clearly the woman never intended to go so far, but was it rape? Did she forget her part in it and decide two days later that she was raped?

Would it have been rape had she told the fellow that she was going to get down and dirty with him but did not want to go "all the way"?


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

How many people really don't consider this a big deal until it strikes close to home?

Of those, how many have a problem with it because of objective principle and how many because regardless of principle, it has harmed someone they consider important?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

IndyDave said:


> First, I fail to understand why this has to be a struggle.
> 
> Second, I see where conflating anything and everything derived from impure thoughts with no real boundaries between levels of offense is an issue, it isn't the central issue.
> 
> Third, if the actual rape weren't such a problem, the victim wouldn't start fighting and screaming until the next day or next week rather than while the attack was taking place. Regardless of how one parses the immediate, short, and long term effects, in my reckoning it is worth a bullet in the head regardless of how one may choose to go all Sigmund Freud about it after the fact.


 So let me get this clear Indy. 
You are ready to put a bullet in the head of the subject of the OP for asking a woman out who is shorter than himself? 

That’s why there needs to be a struggle you have women like two of the participants here who wanted to define a rape Ad pretty much anything a woman doesn’t like and there are other people who want to put a bullet in the head of anyone called a rapist.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Oxankle said:


> I suspect that there is a vast difference between one end of the "rape" spectrum and the other. Some strong minded women can shake up an assault, heal and get on with their lives while others carry the effects to the grave. Rape is a physical assault, little to do with sex and often involves brutality. That reasoning makes me think that like PTSD in the military, some get it and some don't. Surely some PHD has studied this?


As with any human phenomenon, neither people nor the effects are a standardized commodity. Compare this with shooting someone. The victim may die instantly, die later, spend months recovering, go to the ER, get patched up and sent home, or take a hit and proceed to return fire on his attacker, and then get patched up. That doesn't diminish the serious nature of the attack. Likewise with rape, just because some recover mentally and emotionally faster than others and some have less physical trauma than others, that doesn't change the seriousness of the attack.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> So let me get this clear Indy.
> You are ready to put a bullet in the head of the subject of the OP for asking a woman out who is shorter than himself?
> 
> That’s why there needs to be a struggle you have women like two of the participants here who wanted to define a rape Ad pretty much anything a woman doesn’t like and there are other people who want to put a bullet in the head of anyone called a rapist.


No, I do not consider being tall an offense worthy of a bullet, but I suspect you are aware of that.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Lawyers and judges struggle with these issues. They are beyond me. -30-


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Oxankle said:


> Lawyers and judges struggle with these issues. They are beyond me. -30-


I believe the Indiana legislature has done reasonably well here. To meet the legal definition, penetration is required regardless of the appendage used to do the penetrating and it either is or is not consensual with these caveats:

1. A person cannot legally consent while inebriated.

2. A person under legal age cannot legally consent.

3. An incarcerated inmate cannot legally consent.

4. Nonresistance under threat of force is not legal consent.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

IndyDave said:


> No, I do not consider being tall an offense worthy of a bullet, but I suspect you are aware of that.


 But didnt you say this;


IndyDave said:


> Third, if the actual rape weren't such a problem, the victim wouldn't start fighting and screaming until the next day or next week rather than while the attack was taking place. Regardless of how one parses the immediate, short, and long term effects, in my reckoning it is worth a bullet in the head regardless of how one may choose to go all Sigmund Freud about it after the fact.


 Sorry bud but thats what we have been talking about since the OP the new definition of rape. Being taller than the one asked.

You make this broad sweeping statement about killing rapists then you dont wanna back it up.

Honestly thats the danger of your thinkinging and the stuff that IP and PW spout.

Some guy like you lives next door to a guy convicted under their rules of rape. He Reads about it and and gives him that bullet in the head.
Dont say it wont happen it has already to a Maine couple. AFTER they were married her nasty ass mom Brought a complaint about the sex they had before being married he was convicted a neighbor went to his house and killed him for the rape.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> But didnt you say this;
> 
> Sorry bud but thats what we have been talking about since the OP the new definition of rape. Being taller than the one asked.
> 
> ...


Wait just a minute. Addressing the irrelevance of your exploration of whether forcible penetration itself is as problematic as the additional damage and accepting a tall guy inviting a short girl for a date are entirely different things.

This situation from Maine sounds like a truly outrageous outlier.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You are right they are totally different things but yet you’re willing to kill somebody for both of them. 
Just cause someone labeled them rape. 
I don’t support the labels and I don’t support your method of dealing with either with a bullet to the head.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

And doesn't this WHOLE conversation belong on another forum? If at all?

Mon


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Nope I think for the most part people are discussing it like adults !


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

So far, an excellent discussion.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> So you say. I don't see the humor in belittling victims of sexual assault. *That is not discussion in any real way shape or form.*


Noted and filed.
This one goes on your permanent record.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> There are some women that could be ganged raped at 9 am, building a cabin at 9:30, and butchering hogs at 5. All while holding down a full time job, kids, and *having a sense of superiority* over all the other mere mortal women around her. Or so *she assures herself*.


There's a lot of that going around.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Unsatisfactory on “plays well with others”.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Unsatisfactory on “plays well with others”.


I've been told I resemble that remark.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

painterswife said:


> One in 5 women has been raped. Maybe you as a man thinks that is inconsequential but I sure don't.


I think that is a bit misleading, perhaps a lot misleading. A lot of this discussion has been the meaning of words.
The OP was about someone that felt unsafe around a large student. I suspect this is the same type of person that needs a safe place to go where people won't talk about viewpoints different than theirs. Quite stressful to support your views where people don't share your opinions.
So, on that edge we have sexual assault being assigned to a person for being large. On the other end of this broad range, we have a person that kidnaps a person, ties them up, cuts their clothes off and rapes them, at knife point.

Within this broad range, we have wolf whistle and morning after regrets.

In a make-out session, often times, the guy escalates the pawing until he gets the hint that that's as far as he's going. Is that farther than she intended when she agreed to go on the date? If, upon reflection a week later, there are feelings of regret, can that rationalization make the potential love of her life a rapist?

The biggest struggle I have in understanding rape or more specifically the claimed frequency that it is claimed to happen. I understand no means no. I have no male friends that would rape a woman. I find that claims that it is common hard to grasp.

When the news accepts initial reports of rape that are decades old, I question the claimant. Same for decades old claims of a wide range of sexual assault.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

haypoint said:


> The biggest struggle I have in understanding rape or more specifically the claimed frequency that it is claimed to happen. I understand no means no. I have no male friends that would rape a woman. I find that claims that it is common hard to grasp.


There's data which shows rapes occur more often than one would think:

https://slate.com/human-interest/20...ually-assaulted-almost-as-often-as-women.html

"Last year the National Crime Victimization Survey turned up a remarkable statistic. In asking 40,000 households about *rape and sexual violence*, the survey uncovered that *38 percent of incidents were against men.* 

The number seemed so high that it prompted researcher Lara Stemple to call the Bureau of Justice Statistics to see if it maybe it had made a mistake, or changed its terminology. After all, in years past men had accounted for somewhere between 5 and 14 percent of rape and sexual violence victims. 

But no, it wasn’t a mistake, officials told her, although they couldn’t explain the rise beyond guessing that maybe it had something to do with the publicity surrounding former football coach Jerry Sandusky and the Penn State sex abuse scandal."


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> One in 5 women has been raped. Maybe you as a man thinks that is inconsequential but I sure don't.


Data and link? Seems a bit high to me.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Dave, you ask what about our children and G kids? Well, hows OUR arguing, trying to fit ONE synopsis into everyones brain, trying to get each of our heads wrapped around ONE concept of rape and /or its consequences, gonna do ANYTHING for them?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> This isn’t a new issue. We can talk it to pieces, but not much will change. *Humans do what humans do.*
> 
> I grew up in an era of hope for The Age of Aquarius. It didn’t happen. It’s not going to happen.


yeppers, and most humans have evolved to the point of being able to deal with the fact that some humans don't always behave in a manner that suits them. Others whine, pout, and complain anytime things don't go their way.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Data and link? Seems a bit high to me.


I might be able to find again what I found earlier today but she is quoting numbers that are widely accepted. I will add that they seem plausible within my own observations.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

IndyDave said:


> I might be able to find again what I found earlier today but she is quoting numbers that are widely accepted. I will add that they seem plausible within my own observations.


I'd really appreciate it Dave. It could be a local phenomenon but we just don't have anything close to the number of rapes in this area to involve one in five women. One in five thousand maybe. I've lived in this county 40 years, populated by 10,000 people the only rape I've heard about took place shortly after I moved here. We have quite a few bad checks, some drug possession charges, Dui's of course but violent crime is pretty scarce.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> But didnt you say this;
> 
> Sorry bud but thats what we have been talking about since the OP the new definition of rape. Being taller than the one asked.
> 
> ...


The OP doesn't define being tall as rape, although it does foolishly indicate it may be considered sexual harassment and when I went searching for further information on this, there is some indication that it may be a hoax.

https://thelibertarianrepublic.com/...sulted-in-a-title-ix-penalty-thats-fake-news/


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wr said:


> there is some indication that it may be a hoax.


It says the reason for his *sanctions* may not have been that his size was considered "sexual harassment", but the testimony given that brought up the idea was real.



> The story apparently emerged after a Twitter user flagged a portion of a deposition taken in an ensuing lawsuit.
> 
> During that deposition, a University of Missouri administrator said that having large physical stature could count as having “power or authority” over a victim within the meaning of campus Title IX regulations.
> 
> All told, it is not clear that the student’s comparatively large size had any bearing at all on the sanctions he received. The accused is named Jeremy Rowles.


I think that may be a left leaning site trying to make it *seem* like it's a "right wing" fantasy:



> Right-leaning media outlets falsely reported Tuesday that a University of Missouri student was sanctioned under Title IX because he was physically larger than a female student to whom he made unwanted romantic propositions.


It's hard to tell what's real anymore.


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

FarmboyBill said:


> Bob you say, (plenty of people get laughed at or mocked mearly because they are in a position of power). How do you come to that conclusion? I bet nobody mocked A Capone, or JP Morgan, or H Ford, or JP Getty, or any other persons with wealth and power and didn't receive some sort of rebuke from those persons. Specially Al.


oh geez, plenty of people surely made plenty fun of Capone. not to his face mind you, unless they were rivals of course with the means to back it up, but you can count on it happening. but no, what I meant was that plenty of people get laughed at or mocked 'by' those in power, and it isn't sexual assault or harassment. but ya the door does swing both ways plenty make fun of their bosses/etc. also.


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I think that may be a left leaning site trying to make it *seem* like it's a "right wing" fantasy:


<sarcasm>WHAT?!? that is impossible! They don't do stuff like that!...</sarcasm>


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The article is interesting. Along with the details of his behavior, it contains examples of the guesses, assumptions, and conclusions that were made. 

Yes, his behavior was inappropriate. He may need psychiatric help.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Well, you have the word/term rape. I always thought that ment forceably removing the clothes from someone of the opposite sex, usually women. NOW, I find that it covers a broad bunch of bullshirt. like rape by instrumentation. I don't know what instrument the doer is using, whether an accordion or a tuba, BUTT, it means more than just simply helping a woman out of her clothes.
I suppose, if I said to a blonde, Id like to rape you, shes all confused as to what I actually would like to do. Being so confused, she looks up a cop to help her, and he makes the decision.
They say theres a lot of rape goes on in mens prisons. I have never heard of it happening in womans prisons. SO, IF your in a cell with Ben Dover, I doubt hes going to take your clothes off, as everybody is wearing the same suit of clothes. I wonder if prison officals condone it as just another means of causing in MATES to not to want to return. If so, I think it only has a 76% success rate. Most stay out, some want back in. In case theres a humourless person reading this, (Its a joke, I SAY, its a joke son lol


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

As a petite woman, (a tad over 5') most people are taller than me.
I have never been uncomfortable just with a person's height.
I have asked folks, both male and female , to back off, usually nicely , if they are in my personal space. 

( I did notice, while in Europe, that there seems to be a different idea of just what a comfortable personal space is...it took me a bit of time to adjust to being closer...while standing in line for example. )


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

FarmboyBill said:


> I always thought that ment forceably removing the clothes from someone of the opposite sex, usually women.


It means "forcible *penetration *without consent".


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Personal space in Japan standing in line.... no such thing.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It says the reason for his *sanctions* may not have been that his size was considered "sexual harassment", but the testimony given that brought up the idea was real.
> 
> 
> I think that may be a left leaning site trying to make it *seem* like it's a "right wing" fantasy:
> ...


I read that as well but the article I posted does seem to indicate that relates to court testimony and not a routine policy of the University. If I'm mistaken and it is policy, I remain firm that it's close to the top of the list of dumbest things I've ever heard.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wr said:


> I remain firm that it's close to the top of the list of *dumbest* things I've ever heard.


There's no doubt about that.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's no doubt about that.


#1 spot is still held by the idiot that inhaled a fencing staple and forgot to mention that detail for about a decade but I gave birth to the top contender and can remind him that it wasn't his finest moment.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wr said:


> #1 spot is still held by the idiot that inhaled a fencing staple and forgot to mention that detail for about a decade


I'm surprised it didn't come up much sooner.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Talk about a case for himmi roids lol


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

IndyDave said:


> Rummaging around the internet, I found this. It seems interesting but I will probably have to work through it a few times before really starting to form any conclusions.
> 
> http://behavioralscientist.org/what...istic-teaches-us-about-sexual-assault-policy/


This should be required reading. Thank you for finding it, Dave.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Espiritus said:


> I'm almost 65 years old. I clearly remember the days when my close friend, who was endowed with very large breasts, wouldn't walk to the store until she looked to see which men were hanging out on the sidewalk. These men believed they had the right to talk vulgar and suggestively to a twelve year old...
> 
> One would find a reason to reach over her and rub against her; the other's would laugh. It was all a big joke. When her mother and father were told, they advised her to avoid the men, to "not bring attention to herself" and she did. A twelve year old.
> 
> ...


I understand completely. This, and worse, happened to my friends and I in the late 60s and 70s. It was rare to even have someone tell their parents, I didn't, because we thought we wouldn't be believed, or we would be judged for what happened. We were powerless. 

I think parents that were victims of sexual assault, witnessed it, or had a friend go through were more supportive of their children. I'm glad you were for your kids, Espiritus. And you're right, enough is enough.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

IndyDave said:


> Rummaging around the internet, I found this. It seems interesting but I will probably have to work through it a few times before really starting to form any conclusions.
> 
> http://behavioralscientist.org/what...istic-teaches-us-about-sexual-assault-policy/





Yvonne's hubby said:


> Data and link? Seems a bit high to me.


YH, here is what I found.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Thanks Dave. That explains a lot. I thought as much when I first commented. One in five seemed a bit high to me. Call me old school but a college kid patting a fanny is not rape. Rude perhaps, but not rape.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

My outlook is still influenced by the fact that I am the go to person for a number of teenagers on their bad days. I don't know that 1 in 5 actually holds up, but from what I have encountered, if it doesn't, it doesn't miss it by far.

Regardless of crunching numbers over this, there is no question that it is a serious problem requiring a workable solution.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

IndyDave said:


> My outlook is still influenced by the fact that I am the go to person for a number of teenagers on their bad days. I don't know that 1 in 5 actually holds up, but from what I have encountered, if it doesn't, it doesn't miss it by far.
> 
> Regardless of crunching numbers over this, there is no question that it is a serious problem requiring a workable solution.


It's simple to remedy.... Alter human nature.... Castrate all newborn males. For their own good of course.  Just remember to get them ALL! Miss one and your right back to square one!


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Question One:
How long has rape and/or sexual assault been a problem in human culture?

Question Two:
What has been done to stop it?

Question Three:
Why expect success in stopping it now?


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## Vjklander (Apr 24, 2018)

It is quite easy to solve the problem. Don't let women leave the house unless they are covered head to toe in a sheet and accompanied by a male relative. QED.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Vjklander said:


> It is quite easy to solve the problem. Don't let women leave the house unless they are covered head to toe in a sheet and accompanied by a male relative. QED.


Ummm - isn't there a country somewhere in this world where women do wear sheets - although black, and are mostly accompanied by a male relative? Oh, dang that was tongue in cheek....


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

FarmboyBill said:


> They say theres a lot of rape goes on in mens prisons. I have never heard of it happening in womans prisons. SO, IF your in a cell with Ben Dover, I doubt hes going to take your clothes off, as everybody is wearing the same suit of clothes. I wonder if prison officals condone it as just another means of causing in MATES to not to want to return. If so, I think it only has a 76% success rate.


I know you were sort of joking, but I'd like to make a couple comments before we return to evolving sexual misconduct.
Rape in prison isn't common. Perhaps more common than man on man rape in most communities, but given the type of guys locked up, still uncommon. Most male on male sexual penetration is reluctant consensual sex. Paying off a gambling debt, paying for alcohol that you already consumed, resolving a debt for the candy bars you bought on credit.

76.7% of convicted felons commit another felony within 5 years of being released from prison.

Most corrections officers understand that prisoners are sent to prison as punishment, not to be punished. Most prisons have policies and documentation that insures humane treatment in every aspect of their care. Their minimum care is generally set by wealthy judges that have never experienced the standards of many prisoners prior to imprisonment.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

LOL, Alice; Standing in a mob. Jumping onto trains in twenties. I used to marvel at the crowds walking to work each morning, like moving masses of jello on the sidewalks, all with their cloth masks on.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Question One:
> How long has rape and/or sexual assault been a problem in human culture?
> 
> Question Two:
> ...



Since when we crawled out of the primordial ooze and became female and male.

Not much for the first millennia, punishment and stigma improved slightly after that. It's only been in the last 10-20 years there has been much of an improvement. It's only been in the last 5 years that there has been a significant improvement.

Because it's wrong to force another human being to do something against their will, especially of a sexual nature. More awareness means more women coming forward, and more people being punished for what they've done. With the advances in DNA, more states relaxing the statute of limitations, and more women being believed, the success in limiting rape/sexual assault will continue to improve in my opinion. It will never be eliminated, but that doesn't mean we should give up.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> Since when we crawled out of the primordial ooze and became female and male.
> 
> Not much for the first millennia, punishment and stigma improved slightly after that. It's only been in the last 10-20 years there has been much of an improvement. It's only been in the last 5 years that there has been a significant improvement.
> 
> *Because it's wrong to force another human being to do something against their will, especially of a sexual nature.* More awareness means more women coming forward, and more people being punished for what they've done. With the advances in DNA, more states relaxing the statute of limitations, and more women being believed, the success in limiting rape/sexual assault will continue to improve in my opinion. It will never be eliminated, but that doesn't mean we should give up.


It's wrong to force another human being to do anything against their will.... Period.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

haypoint said:


> I know you were sort of joking, but I'd like to make a couple comments before we return to evolving sexual misconduct.
> Rape in prison isn't common. Perhaps more common than man on man rape in most communities, but given the type of guys locked up, still uncommon. Most male on male sexual penetration is reluctant consensual sex. Paying off a gambling debt, paying for alcohol that you already consumed, resolving a debt for the candy bars you bought on credit.
> 
> 76.7% of convicted felons commit another felony within 5 years of being released from prison.
> ...


Another detail this brings to mind is that the inmates in Indiana at least have somewhere between a strong plurality and a majority who consider the individual being penetrated homosexual or any of a list of less flattering descriptions, but do not consider the one doing the penetrating to be homosexual.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

IndyDave said:


> Another detail this brings to mind is that the inmates in Indiana at least have somewhere between a strong plurality and a majority who consider the individual being penetrated homosexual or any of a list of less flattering descriptions, but do not consider the one doing the penetrating to be homosexual.


Absolutely. Its an easy rationalization. Quite bluntly, heterosexuals penetrate any orifice available to them but only gays take it in the butt. Gays in prison present a real threat to a prison's security. Manipulation through the cultivation of lover's triangles leads to assaults. Also, hopes of financial gain through careful marketing of this commodity results in those that freely substitute threats of harm.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I'd really appreciate it Dave. It could be a local phenomenon but we just don't have anything close to the number of rapes in this area to involve one in five women. One in five thousand maybe. I've lived in this county 40 years, populated by 10,000 people the only rape I've heard about took place shortly after I moved here. We have quite a few bad checks, some drug possession charges, Dui's of course but violent crime is pretty scarce.


Rape is one of those crimes you dont hear much about. I understand most is unreported. 
Then the media cant do much with it because the victim doesn't want their face splashed on the front page or nightly news and the hospitals and legal system protects the victim from that.


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

Vjklander said:


> It is quite easy to solve the problem. Don't let women leave the house unless they are covered head to toe in a sheet and accompanied by a male relative. QED.


Some places it is often the male relatives doing the rape.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I have a friend from Wisconsin who converted to Islam and lived in Yemen for about ten years. She said Muslim men are MUCH worse with physical aggression of a sexual nature than men here.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I have a friend from Wisconsin who converted to Islam and lived in Yemen for about ten years. She said Muslim men are MUCH worse with physical aggression of a sexual nature than men here.


When you consider their explanation for requiring cloth from head to ground and that Moslem males in Europe consider European women's being unacceptably dressed as a valid justification for raping them, I find it extremely difficult to be surprised.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I'd really appreciate it Dave. It could be a local phenomenon but we just don't have anything close to the number of rapes in this area to involve one in five women. One in five thousand maybe. I've lived in this county 40 years, populated by 10,000 people the only rape I've heard about took place shortly after I moved here. We have quite a few bad checks, some drug possession charges, Dui's of course but violent crime is pretty scarce.


Further to the article Indy Dave provided, here is a slightly dated one you might find interesting;

http://www.kasap.org/images/files/GetInfo/KYFactsheet.pdf

You may live in a particularly well-behaved county in Kentucky, but this data suggests that Kentucky is a little higher than the national average for incidence of rape and sexual assault. The stat is useful in that it distinguishes between rape and other forms of sexual violence (which may be of varying degrees of severity). But the incidence of women who have experienced actual rape is pretty close to the "1 in 5" rule of thumb. 

I think it underscores the point that most of the sexual violence is either not reported to police, doesn't get noted in media reports, or doesn't stick in people's minds as a notable event.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Indy, I think you misunderstood my post about my friend. 

It’s ok. 

Carry on.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> It's wrong to force another human being to do anything against their will.... Period.


 Think about what you are saying.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Think about what you are saying.


I've carefully thought about my stance on this subject. I see no reason at this point to change it. However, being a man with an open mind, if you happen to know of a situation that forcing another human being to do something against their will is a good thing I'm all ears.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I've carefully thought about my stance on this subject. I see no reason at this point to change it. However, being a man with an open mind, if you happen to know of a situation that forcing another human being to do something against their will is a good thing I'm all ears.


It would require an unusual situation like forcing someone to stay in prison.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

IndyDave said:


> It would require an unusual situation like forcing someone to stay in prison.


Nobody forces them to stay in prison. They have options and for whatever reasons choose to stay. Most of them anyway. I know for my part I would chose staying over being shot, depending on conditions and treatment received inside. If things got bad enough I might chose to take my chances and exit.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Nobody forces them to stay in prison. They have options and for whatever reasons choose to stay. Most of them anyway.


While they made a choice to do whatever they were pit in prison for, most would leave if not for fences and folks with guns in towers.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

IndyDave said:


> While they made a choice to do whatever they were pit in prison for, most would leave if not for fences and folks with guns in towers.


That's why we have fences, walls and towers.... It helps the inmates make wiser choices! They don't always, but most do. Even with the lower iq possessed by the average inmate they opt to remain inside. Better to be safe, warm, well fed and cared for inside than be hunted like an animal outside.


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## D-BOONE (Feb 9, 2016)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> That's why we have fences, walls and towers.... It helps the inmates make wiser choices! They don't always, but most do. Even with the lower iq possessed by the average inmate they opt to remain inside. Better to be safe, warm, well fed and cared for inside than be hunted like an animal outside.


So what about the high IQ inmates?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

D-BOONE said:


> So what about the high IQ inmates?


They pretty much choose to soak up the easy life too.


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

people have been forcing others to do what they want since the beginnings of man. I think we all agree with YH on the surface though and the general idea of freedom. at least I do.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Pretty much any law is a force.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Certainly a man with a gun is a force.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

There are innumerable forces that influence our choices.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

A woman with a gun can be terrifying as well. Grandma was a tad over 5' tall, but she looked a sight bigger with a double barrel 12 ga. in her hands. And, she dang well knew how to use it.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

LOL, Whiterock: When I was about four years old we lived on a farm and Mama had chickens. A hawk was getting her young pullets, so Daddy got out his old 10 gauge and loaded it for her, set it in the corner behind the stove. (Even then I had been taught to "Leave Daddy's guns alone!" The hawk showed up in a tree above the chicken house, Mama shouldered the shotgun and fired both barrels. The hawk lost feathers and I saw it flying lower and lower out behind the barn. Mama gave Daddy a fit about the way "That gun kicks!" He just grinned. That old shotgun stayed with us until after WWII, when Daddy bought a new 12 gauge pump.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

A man saw her with that shotgun once and asked if that was all she had. She said yes and he gave her a Colt .44 single action pistol. She wore those Mother Hubbard aprons all the time and sewed pockets in them to fit that pistol. She was a force to be reckoned with.


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## Grey Mare (Jun 28, 2013)

I am a mother of a daughter who was raped...she was 15 and he was 19...she was with a group of girls that went over to his house, my daughter got scared and didn't want to do anything with him, as this was part of the "initiation" to hang with them and be their friend. Next thing my daughter knows, she wakes up and he is on top of her. She screamed and cried while he held her down, the other 2 girls were in the living room while this was going on. 

That and a lot more came out in court. Took a month for the police in the TX town we were stationed at to pick the scum bag up, each day I would go by his apartment on the way home, a baseball bat in the back seat of my truck. Took a year and I had him deported, watched INS take him away in cuffs while his mom and dad begged me not to do it...all I could tell them was that their son broke MY laws and he could rot in their country. He also has to file as a sex offender for the rest of his life and is not legally allowed back in the USA legally. 

I hate how people throw the word "rape" around, like it is no big deal or because they haven't been effected by it then it is okay to use flippantly. It isn't. It was a horrid time in our family, this scum bags friends threatening us while the court proceedings were on going, the cruel phone msg's left when we would come home to find, telling our daughter if she testified they would grab her little brother from school and she would never see him again, our house and vehicles egged, used condoms in our yard, etc....

Rape isn't something to cry for any little thing. It isn't even something some woman, who is mad at her spouse or bf, should EVER use against him when it isn't true but she wants to get even. Woman now a days are so quick to act offended, or find some reason to whine and moan about some indiscretion. Every little thing offends or upsets them. There is no debating rape in my mind.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Grey Mare said:


> I am a mother of a daughter who was raped...she was 15 and he was 19...she was with a group of girls that went over to his house, my daughter got scared and didn't want to do anything with him, as this was part of the "initiation" to hang with them and be their friend. Next thing my daughter knows, she wakes up and he is on top of her. She screamed and cried while he held her down, the other 2 girls were in the living room while this was going on.
> 
> That and a lot more came out in court. Took a month for the police in the TX town we were stationed at to pick the scum bag up, each day I would go by his apartment on the way home, a baseball bat in the back seat of my truck. Took a year and I had him deported, watched INS take him away in cuffs while his mom and dad begged me not to do it...all I could tell them was that their son broke MY laws and he could rot in their country. He also has to file as a sex offender for the rest of his life and is not legally allowed back in the USA legally.
> 
> ...


I agree. Rape is a horrible crime. A pat on the backside is not rape, and should never be confused with such.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> Gray mare you have told this story before and I still do not understand your anger at the young man for a the situation your daughter and her friends arranged.
> It would seem as if your daughter instigated the situation and her friends helped carry it out
> The young man sounds as if he was nothing but a tool of your daughter and his friends and that’s when I hear it from your side. I imagine his side would include different details.
> Are you was mad at your daughter and her friends as you were at this young man? Did you take as many steps and put forth as much effort to ruin their lives as you get him ?
> ...


The girl deserves no blame. The girl did nothing wrong. Rape is doing something against someone's will. Your post is disgusting. It does not matter if someone walks down the street naked. There is no justification for rape.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Jumping Jehosiphat, American Stand. I cannot believe you said that. She was 15. Young, stupid, naive.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> There are *innumerable forces* that influence our choices.


Brunettes are the force that have most greatly influenced my choices.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> I never said one woman against another, I said groups of women. You can't think of a single instance, you said "there are *no* men seeking to pit one woman against another as some sort of control angle.", where men would want to take advantage of dividing women into groups? The first (and largest) is in the political arena, and we've seen it for the last three years.


Torpedo launched


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

haypoint said:


> https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/t...KRE8n4oB9ZNiif66aF-OK8am5OcIqnFIrGTz0iioaAa6w
> 
> How Twitter judges current and distant past violations, 90s included.
> 
> ...


Well played


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> Why are you calling her names?


She is dealing with the reasons why minors are considered children and not adults.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

The little SOB should be thankful. My first thought would have been a stack of truck tires around him, some fuel, and a match.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

IndyDave said:


> She is dealing with the reasons why minors are considered children and not adults.


We have seen no evidence that the young lady was stupid or naïve both of them are inappropriate insults for a child.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

IndyDave said:


> The little SOB should be thankful. My first thought would have been a stack of truck tires around him, some fuel, and a match.


Seems like an appropriate response to a young man that was trying to make your daughter happy


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> Seems like an appropriate response to a young man that was trying to make your daughter happy


If making her happy was the point, I don't think she would have been in the position to wake up after he had commenced to engaging in sexual penetration while she was not in a condition to consent which is defined as rape in most states. Yes, I would consider whipping up a batch of roast rapist perfectly appropriate.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Some people here seem to be forgetting the young lady was trying to join a gang Through a sex initiation. 
She wasn’t raped t at Alice’s tea party by burgers. 
She went there for initiation she asked for this , literally she asked for it , She very likely had to do other things to get to this stage in the process.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Is there a need to consent to sex that you initiate?


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> Some people here seem to be forgetting the young lady was trying to join a gang Through a sex initiation.
> She wasn’t raped t at Alice’s tea party by burgers.
> She went there for initiation she asked for this , literally she asked for it , She very likely had to do other things to get to this stage in the process.


You seem to be making some significant assumptions.

You also seem to be operating on the premise that once you get a woman/girl behind closed doors, she is your to do with as you please until she gets out from behind those doors.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> Some people here seem to be forgetting the young lady was trying to join a gang Through a sex initiation.
> She wasn’t raped t at Alice’s tea party by burgers.
> She went there for initiation she asked for this , literally she asked for it , She very likely had to do other things to get to this stage in the process.


She did not agree to go ahead, did she? Unless she did she never asked for it. Disgusting that you justify rape in this way.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

painterswife said:


> She did not agree to go ahead, did she? Unless she did she never asked for it. Disgusting that you justify rape in this way.


It would appear she did.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

AmericanStand said:


> It would appear she did.


No, it appears that you are justifying rape. Even if there was a plan to have sex, there was no consent at the time.

I am interested in you answering this.

If you and your partner plan to have sex after dinner and your partner then decided to just go to sleep instead would you go ahead and have sex with that person?


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> It would appear she did.


By legal definition, it was rape.

By any understanding I would consider reasonable, she would have had to be awake at the time of commencement of action in order to be consenting.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Brunettes are the force that have most greatly influenced my choices.


I'm easy I guess, I have had blondes and redheads heavily enfluence my choices as well.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I'm easy I guess, I have had blondes and redheads heavily enfluence my choices as well.


Note I said "*most* greatly".


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> If you and your partner plan to have sex after dinner and your partner then decided to just go to sleep instead would you go ahead and have sex with that person?


Need more info to answer. How much did dinner cost? Was it partial payment of an agreed financial arrangement in exchange for sexual favors? Is my hypothetical partner blonde, brunette or red head? More importantly does she have large breastseses?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Need more info to answer. How much did dinner cost? Was it partial payment of an agreed financial arrangement in exchange for sexual favors? Is my hypothetical partner blonde, brunette or red head? More importantly does she have large breastseses?


Why do you think it is funny to trivialize rape?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Why do you think it is funny to trivialize rape?


I've never trivialized rape, ever, not once. Rape is one of, if not the most heinous of all crimes ever devised by the human race. The problem I have is with those who fail to understand the difference between rape and other activities that involve sexual acts. Consent is a critical factor, consent is often granted without a written contract signed and notarized by all parties involved.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I've never trivialized rape, ever, not once. Rape is one of, if not the most heinous of all crimes ever devised by the human race. The problem I have is with those who fail to understand the difference between rape and other activities that involve sexual acts. Consent is a critical factor, consent is often granted without a written contract signed and notarized by all parties involved.


You made a joke of it. You made it dependent on how much you spent or the size of a women's breast. If you can't see that I doubt your ability to understand what legal consent is.


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## LT2108 (May 28, 2014)

Thread closed, due to it becoming high maintenance for the mod staff.

Any questions, please feel free to contact me


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