# Finally....a zero electric bill !



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

It was a REALLY good solar month here.....knocking down 18-20 Kwhrs on many bright days.

Local power company just posted online this month's reading/bill.....we have a 26 cent credit for the past month ! ( no....they aren't cutting us a check  )

I'll post a copy of the paper bill when it comes in a week or so.....

When I get that next array up, they WILL be cutting us a check !


----------



## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

:clap: Hard work pays off!!


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Yes it do ! ..........


----------



## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

WTG!!!!!!

BTW,It'll NEVER Work !


----------



## frank (Dec 16, 2008)

You rock TN...

I'm about ready to make 8-10 kw/day here.


----------



## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

Frank, 
when you get my age, that's some gooood looking porn there!!


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Frank,

I'm also using Outback equipment. Is that a custom made "adapter" box on the bottom of the inverter, or did you buy it someplace ?

I used a Xantrex double 175 breaker box (white box, far right ) coming from my batteries...one knockout hole lined up with one inverter, and the other, I had to cut a hole. The gray box on the left side is an Outback Flexware AC panel.










To the right of the Flexware panel, I mounted the Hub, then you can see the incoming disconnect from the arrays that feed the 2 charge controllers. I have two pole mounted arrays, and my combiner boxes are on the poles.


----------



## Windy in Kansas (Jun 16, 2002)

Even though you had a credit did you still have to pay all sorts of service charges, franchise fees, etc. just to have the meter still grid tied? That was always my objections to inter-tie systems you still to pay to in essences use them are your battery bank. Here the electricity doesn't cost much but the fees are costly.


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

There is an 8 buck meter fee you pay no matter how much or little power you use...that would be the 'minimum' bill...then the power charge is added to that for the total.

Our little credit takes care of both....they owe us 26 cents....which I'm sure will be offset down the road, as this was a great solar month.

Previous month, we only had half the hours of this billing....best we had done to this point was a $21 bill in November.


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

How well I remember my days of "zero" . . . . . . . . .
But that was with the old meter that use to smoke going backwards.......

Now adays I use the excess for heat or AC . . .soon hot water.


----------



## Windy in Kansas (Jun 16, 2002)

I like the idea that your system has produced enough to also pay the meter service fee.

Not sure what Kansas has for regs now days, but it used to be the power companies sold to you at retail (naturally) but only had to buy back at wholesale rather than exchange KWH for KWH, hence a two meter system generally, i.e. incoming and outgoing meters and you had to pay service charges on both.


----------



## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

So when you get the other array up, and say you can supply all your needs... would you ever consider going completely off grid or would that be defeating the purpose. I know with another array you will see some payback but if you are completely off grid that's one less person (meter reader,lineman etc.) coming on to your property or yours may be like mine remotely read and you don't even have to open the gate. Just wondering ?


----------



## Windy in Kansas (Jun 16, 2002)

There sure would be benefits to an inter-tie system such as when a person wants to fabricate some implement, etc. which needs a lot of welding.

I don't have any system but I do see benefits to both ways to go.


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Welding not a problem...I use my Miller Bobcat or plug the Miller mig unit into the 8kw 120/240 it also has...










But I also have several 3-5hp single phase motors in the shop....table saw, planer, air compressor, etc, and having the grid makes it nice to run things like that.....I would have to probably ramp up my inverters or be very careful about what else was running.....and I probably couldn't run the table saw (5hp), the dust blower (3hp) and the shop lighting ( 4-HID 400w) at the same time....so, no, I'll stay on grid.

The OTHER big advantage to staying on grid is the money. We're one of the TVA "green partner generators".....which is a program by TVA to encourage AltE. They pay us whatever retail is PLUS 12 cents per kwhr for everything our solar produces ( separate meter for the solar ). Since retail is about 9 1/2 cents right now, that means we're getting 21.5 for our solar production.....that allows us to produce far less than we consume, and still have that negative bill.....for example....our consumption this month was 865kwhrs, and our production was only 398kwhrs......but the result was a negative 26 cent bill. It's one of the better infeed tariffs in the country right now.

As to the meter reading, they use a radio meter, and can read it without coming on the property.....so that isn't really an issue.

I actually think if I set up a third array, I'll make it grid tie only, with no connection to my current battery backup.....that would save me buying 2 more charge controllers ( 1200 bucks ), more batteries, disconnects/etc.....and the wiring would be LOT less expensive and simple. 

IF the SHTF, and I needed that extra power, I could cut loose the grid connection, and "trick" the grid tie inverter into thinking there was still grid power by using the other inverters to supply it ( these Outback inverters have an extra set of contacts that close in a grid down situation, allowing you to feed 120/240 AC to a transfer switch and keep getting power..like a backup generator should be set up ).....a grid tie ONLY inverter normally won't put out power if the grid goes down ( to prevent back feeding...UL 1741 standards ), but it can be fooled.

Here's my transfer switch set up in the garage. The small panel, to left, contains the circuits I consider critical....lights,refrigeration, etc...they normally run in conjuction with the rest of the circuits, which are in a 200amp panel just out of view to the left side. Grid down, we walk out and throw the handle of the transfer switch ( on right ) to the down position, which is feeding from the battery bank and/or that extra set of contacts in the inverters.


----------



## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Windy in Kansas said:


> I like the idea that your system has produced enough to also pay the meter service fee.
> 
> Not sure what Kansas has for regs now days, but it used to be the power companies sold to you at retail (naturally) but only had to buy back at wholesale rather than exchange KWH for KWH, hence a two meter system generally, i.e. incoming and outgoing meters and you had to pay service charges on both.


http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/incentive.cfm?Incentive_Code=KS08R&re=1&ee=1



> Legislation enacted in May 2009 (HB 2369) established net metering for customers of investor-owned utilities in Kansas. The rules allow residential systems up to 25 kilowatts (kW) and non-residential systems up to 200 kW to offset onsite electricity consumption. A net-metered system must be appropriately sized so as not to exceed expected load. If a customer-generator produces more electricity than is consumed during a monthly period, the net excess generation (NEG) will be carried forward to the next month at the full retail rate. Any NEG remaining in the customer's account at the end of the calendar year will be granted to the utility. Utilities are required to offer net metering on a first-come, first-served basis until the rated generating capacity of all net-metered systems equals 1% of the utility's peak demand* during the previous year. The Kansas Corporation Commission (KCC) has the authority to increase this limit during a rule-making process.
> 
> Utilities are required to provide net-metered customers with a bi-directional meter at no cost to the customer. Utilities are also prohibited from charging net-metered customers any additional standby charges, capacity charges, interconnection charges or other fees that a customers would not incur if the customer did not participate in net metering. The estimated generating capacity of all net-metered systems may count towards the utilityâs renewable capacity requirement under Kansas's renewable portfolio standard (RPS).


----------



## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

Thanks Andy for the explanation, I am trying to put my 825kwh a month into perspective.That averages out to around $84 @ month. That TVA program is a win, win situation though. You can't hardly not do it. I think the first thing I will tackle will probably be the hot water and see where that leads.

Your grid disconnect is exactly the same set up that I did for my grid/generator tie in, again congratulations on the ZERO bill.


----------



## trkarl (Dec 15, 2009)

Nice!! It get's addicting. My system isn't grid tied but it sure is nice to not realize the power is out in the neighborhood. Of course though lights on in the house at night might draw unwanted attention when the power goes off.

I installed this inverter in Feb in place of my sw4048. The new one is an SMA 5048U.


----------



## frank (Dec 16, 2008)

This is becoming a good thread...lol...

Tn, that's flexware 250. I'll post another pic this evening.


----------



## Windy in Kansas (Jun 16, 2002)

Sounds like Kansas may be coming out of the dark ages after all. Thanks for that information www.


----------



## frank (Dec 16, 2008)




----------



## frank (Dec 16, 2008)




----------



## frank (Dec 16, 2008)




----------



## frank (Dec 16, 2008)

This shows the "whole power center" Fw 250 on top and bottom. dc on bottom. ac in and out on top. 'Just need to put a load center on ac out. I wired an outlet on the right side for extension cords (lights etc) right off the fw250. fndc above ac out. ac out, had to modify hole in fw250.


----------



## frank (Dec 16, 2008)

Tn, I'd sure like to find that transfer sw with the throw handle! Help!


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Frank,

I bought it at a local electrical supply place in Asheville, NC.....I assume any electrical supply house would have them, or could get them... Cutler-Hammer brand....about $600 if I memory serves me right....

Nice photos there, by the way....thanks !


----------



## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

Frank,
This is what I used for my grid/generator.
Let Andy see if it's the same specs as his. Mine was around $600 too about 4 years ago.
http://www.harborfreight.com/200-am...cpc&zmam=13262200&zmas=12&zmac=112&zmap=42163


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Yep, Tarheel.....I believe that is the exact same switch with a better price.....I didn't know Harbor Freight sold CH.

There ya go, Frank.


----------



## frank (Dec 16, 2008)

Thanks! (100A switch=300$)


----------



## ChickadeeL (Dec 10, 2008)

I am drooling over the setups pictured.

Someday....


----------



## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

David keeps talking about getting us off the grid via solar and/or wind. Since this is such an informative thread and people in this forum are so very kind, I am going to invite David to look this thread over.


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

This month's bill (May) just posted at the power company website.

MINUS 4.20 

And I didn't even think it was THAT good a solar month.


----------



## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

:clap::clap:


----------

