# What happens if you are wrong?



## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

If you are a christian, you believe in god, you believe in the scriptures, you raise you children in your beliefs, and you try to influence people you meet in your life with your beliefs. What if you are wrong, what happens when you die? Nothing.

If you are an atheist, you don't believe in god, you think the scriptures are fairy tales, you raise your children in your beliefs, and you try to influence people you meet in you life with your beliefs. What if you are wrong, what happens when you die, what happens to your children and the people you influenced in your life? Can't answer that one, can you?

"O"


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

That is not a risk I am willing to take.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

Actually. NM.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

If you are doing it to hedge your bet do you truly believe or are you just hedging your bet by going through the motions?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Have you ever seen the move "What Dreams May Come" with Robin Williams? I think that may answer your question.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

Are you suggesting that life has no supernatural origin?


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

English Oliver said:


> *If you are a christian*, you believe in god, you believe in the scriptures, you raise you children in your beliefs, and you try to influence people you meet in your life with your beliefs. What if you are wrong, what happens when you die? Nothing.
> 
> *If you are an atheist*, you don't believe in god, you think the scriptures are fairy tales, you raise your children in your beliefs, and you try to influence people you meet in you life with your beliefs. What if you are wrong, what happens when you die, what happens to your children and the people you influenced in your life? Can't answer that one, can you?
> 
> "O"


Why are you only including christians and atheists in the equation? What about all the other people who aren't christians or atheists?

What if everybody is wrong?

It doesn't matter.

.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

Why the rash of provoking posts lately that do nothing but either gloat over being a christian when others aren't (which is proof a person is nothing more than a very very bad christian), trying to provoke other than christians with stuff like this; or just plain judgmental christian stuff?

What gives?

If this is going to be a "for Christians only" board in actual intent with a caveat of "everyone is welcome so long as we can treat you like a lesser person" to pretend to be for everyone, then why not just say so?


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

English Oliver said:


> If you are a christian, you believe in god, you believe in the scriptures, you raise you children in your beliefs, and you try to influence people you meet in your life with your beliefs. What if you are wrong, what happens when you die? Nothing.
> 
> *That's only if you are wrong about there being ANY gods. If you picked the wrong god you could be worse off than the atheists, since other gods might be just as jealous as yours is.* :teehee:
> 
> ...


Sure I can. It's an easy one to answer. I did what I thought was best, so I'm ready to face any consequences for my choice. That's the adult thing to do, isn't it?
BTW, this thread is based on something called Pascal's Wager, which has been around for hundreds of years. It was long ago shot down as any kind of "logical" argument for believing in any gods, and few people try to use it any more.:whistlin:


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## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

naturelover said:


> Why are you only including christians and atheists in the equation? What about all the other people who aren't christians or atheists?
> 
> What if everybody is wrong?
> 
> ...


 Everyone cannot be wrong. 

"O"


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## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

Sacrifice a couple of virgins, just to be sure


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Ever watch South Park? They have a great episode where there are all these people standing about, and they discover that they are dead and they are in Hell. So several people say "But *I'm* not supposed to be here! I was a devout ______!" And they are told, "No, I'm sorry, that was the incorrect religion". Then one man says "So, what WAS the right one?" And they are told..."Mormon. Yes, I'm afraid Mormon was the correct answer."

It was a great piece of satire, because it made me think: is it only Christians in general, or only Catholics, or only Born-Again-First-Church-of-God-Baptists who are going to heaven? What about those who were Buddhist or Athiest or Muslim who lived good lives? If they are good to their neighbors, give to the poor, and follow the commandments do they get relegated to Hell just because they picked the wrong religion?


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

English Oliver said:


> Everyone cannot be wrong.
> 
> "O"


Why not? How do you know that?

.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

fishhead said:


> If you are doing it to hedge your bet do you truly believe or are you just hedging your bet by going through the motions?



I believe because it is what is in my heart and soul.


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## gryndlgoat (May 27, 2005)

shanzone2001 said:


> I believe because it is what is in my heart and soul.


And Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, and all other faiths believe how they do because it is what is in their hearts and souls. 

If that is the basis for being "right", then they are just as right in their faiths as you are.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

gryndlgoat said:


> And Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, and all other faiths believe how they do because it is what is in their hearts and souls.
> 
> If that is the basis for being "right", then they are just as right in their faiths as you are.


Absolutely. Every person has the free will to choose their own belief system.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Don't you know that the Great Spirit is laughing his fanny off at humans?:thumb:


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Don't you know that the Great Spirit is laughing his fanny off at humans?:thumb:


****************************************
John 11:35 - *Jesus wept.*


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

bluemoonluck said:


> Ever watch South Park? They have a great episode where there are all these people standing about, and they discover that they are dead and they are in Hell. So several people say "But *I'm* not supposed to be here! I was a devout ______!" And they are told, "No, I'm sorry, that was the incorrect religion". Then one man says "So, what WAS the right one?" And they are told..."Mormon. Yes, I'm afraid Mormon was the correct answer."
> 
> It was a great piece of satire, because it made me think: is it only Christians in general, or only Catholics, or only Born-Again-First-Church-of-God-Baptists who are going to heaven? What about those who were Buddhist or Athiest or Muslim who lived good lives? If they are good to their neighbors, give to the poor, and follow the commandments do they get relegated to Hell just because they picked the wrong religion?


Jesus said "You can only enter my fathers kingdom through me". Therefore so long as your choice of church believes in the living son, Jesus, and you accept him as your savior, you can live eternally.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

copperkid3 said:


> ****************************************
> John 11:35 - *Jesus wept.*


Jesus only wept because his friend Lazarus had died. Then he commanded Lazarus to rise and live again. Which I think is the only time I know of that Jesus abused his powers for personal gain.

.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Personally, I believe that using the promise of heaven as some sort of justification for being a Christian is a mistaken notion.

Choosing that path should be reward enough.

Furthermore, Christianity as I understand it is an internal quest. The goal is to make yourself most like Christ.

Whether or not anyone else is in agreement is pretty much beside the point.

And the notion of trying to scare others into becoming Christian (although fairly popular in the past) is a bit silly in the modern world.


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## Yldrosie (Jan 28, 2006)

Pascal's Wager.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

What of the millions and millions of people that lived before 33AD?
I am sure there were plenty of very nice people that hurt no one, were always kind and generous etc...? Surely they cannot be burning in the eternal fire.

And I am very secure in my belief (or lack there of) and not in the least bit worried as to my future plans.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

For those who have any question as to who is right or wrong about their particular brand of religion I recommend reading "Job" by Robert Heinlein...


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Given a choice between 70 virgins and my dogs I'd rather go where they went if they went anywhere.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

And I must say that Hades will be populated by much more interesting people and have better music etc.. heaven really sounds like an awful way to spend eternity to me. Church for an hour is hard enough..but forever and ever?!


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

chickenista said:


> What of the millions and millions of people that lived before 33AD?


To quote the scriptures: Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

chickenista said:


> And I must say that Hades will be populated by much more interesting people and have better music etc.. heaven really sounds like an awful way to spend eternity to me. Church for an hour is hard enough..but forever and ever?!


LOL. I know of a very outrageous fellow who used to say, "I'd rather stand on my head in a bucket of [email protected]*& in hell that spend forever flat on my face in heaven. I hate that stupid song Kumbaya." Seriously, he did. Very outrageous.

But honestly, the very idea of spending all eternity with no desire to do anything except worship something sounds horrible. Free will? Sure, you can do what you want as long as it is to do nothing but idolize a deity. ::shudders:: 

I think hanging with folks who gamble a little, smoke cigars, play a mean guitar like old JH and probably play a great deal of board games, have christmas, shop on sunday, eat meat on friday and all those other mortal sins would be way fun. I bet they have a killer all you can eat buffet too!


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

English Oliver said:


> If you are an atheist, you don't believe in god, you think the scriptures are fairy tales, you raise your children in your beliefs, and you try to influence people you meet in you life with your beliefs. What if you are wrong, what happens when you die, what happens to your children and the people you influenced in your life? Can't answer that one, can you?
> 
> "O"


the only atheist I have EVER seen try to influence people in what they think, is Willowgirl, to be honest.

Atheists HAVE no beliefs to raise their children in or to influence people, so your question has no base to stand on.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

bluemoonluck said:


> If they are good to their neighbors, give to the poor, and follow the commandments do they get relegated to Hell just because they picked the wrong religion?


One is relegated to Hell because they have no covering for their sin.

We all sin, and we all need forgiveness.

You've heard Christians talk about being "washed by the blood"? The Bible teaches that Christ's sacrificial death atones for the sins of those who belong to Him. His righteousness is imputed to those who, by faith, believe on Him for their salvation.

It is not about "having the right religion". Religion cannot save anyone. Religion is man's attempt to save himself (my $0.02).


Tim


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Oldcountryboy said:


> Jesus said "You can only enter my fathers kingdom through me". Therefore so long as your choice of church believes in the living son, Jesus, and you accept him as your savior, you can live eternally.


Only because Jesus said that. Others believe what Buddah said, what Krishna said, what Allah said, etc.
I believe they are all facets of the divine. You get your path to the divine , they get theirs.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Shygal said:


> Atheists HAVE no beliefs to raise their children in or to influence people, so your question has no base to stand on.


Having gone to school with John Garth Murray, son of Madelyn Murry O'Hare, I find that statement totally bogus, uninformed, and just plain wrong.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

BTW, Buddha (Siddh&#257;rtha Gautama) was not religious and did not believe in spiritual beings. In fact he questioned divinity and salvation. I think he would consider all of this talk about heaven and hell as a bunch of wasted effort.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

tarbe said:


> One is relegated to Hell because they have no covering for their sin.
> 
> 
> 
> Tim


There is no way on earth that I can believe in a God that would send people to hell if they lived a good life, followed the commandments, helped other people, etc.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

Shygal said:


> Atheists HAVE no beliefs to raise their children in or to influence people.


Um... sure I do. I have beliefs to raise my kid in:
-Be kind, say nice things, try to spread joy and happiness, make folks smile, don't cheat or steal, leave things better than you found them, pick up somone else's trash if you see it, do your best, don't take any s**t, stand up for the little guy, go to bed happy, eat your veggies, walk gently on the earth, don't hurt toads, don't get into unecessary trouble, but be prepared to explain yourself if you are in trouble, do your chores..the right way the first time so that you don't have to do them all over again, see a need, fill a need, etc..... plenty of beliefs. See?


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

"There is no way on earth that I can believe in a God that would send people to hell if they lived a good life, followed the commandments, helped other people, etc."

or said this:

"for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,"

Jealous? Heck yes. Insecure? Absolutely. A jerk? Oh yeah.

You Christians can keep your god. He needs a therapist.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Having gone to school with John Garth Murray, son of Madelyn Murry O'Hare, I find that statement totally bogus, uninformed, and just plain wrong.


So because you went to school with one atheist, you feel as if you are an expert on all atheists enough, to call my statement bogus, uninformed, etc.

My brother is an atheist. I have some atheist friends, therefore according to your logic, I know more atheists than you do so your statement is the uninformed bogus one


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Another comment here..... my father committed suicide, and his funeral was conducted by a Catholic priest. Fr. Lonnie said that no one but God knows what happened between my dad and God in those last minutes of life. He blessed my father and his life. Who are you to say differently?


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

chickenista said:


> Um... sure I do. I have beliefs to raise my kid in:
> -Be kind, say nice things, try to spread joy and happiness, make folks smile, don't cheat or steal, leave things better than you found them, pick up somone else's trash if you see it, do your best, don't take any s**t, stand up for the little guy, go to bed happy, eat your veggies, walk gently on the earth, don't hurt toads, don't get into unecessary trouble, but be prepared to explain yourself if you are in trouble, do your chores..the right way the first time so that you don't have to do them all over again, see a need, fill a need, etc..... plenty of beliefs. See?


And you are going to burn in hell for that, according to some.

Im talking about beliefs in a faith which is what we were talking about. Most atheists dont try to convince everyone else that their way is the way.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Another comment here..... my father committed suicide, and his funeral was conducted by a Catholic priest. Fr. Lonnie said that no one but God knows what happened between my dad and God in those last minutes of life. He blessed my father and his life. Who are you to say differently?


It would help if we knew who that question was directed to. Because I don't see anyone saying differently except Tarbe


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Having grown up in Austin, surrounded by the media who shared everything about MM O'Hare and her beliefs, I have quite a knowledge base. More than one person. 

Obviously you are a former debate student to be so adept at taking a statement with a larger inherent and obvious meaning and pretending to misunderstand in an attempt to ridicule and discredit the speaker (or writer.)


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

My question about "Who are you to say differently?" is directed at the collective you. Any one reading this at this time, at any future time, and/or anyone in the known and unknown universe.

A rhetorical question, too.

Someone sure is entertaining herself with nit-pickin' on the Internet this evening.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Shygal said:


> Most atheists dont try to convince everyone else that their way is the way.



Quite a few do.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Here's another anecdote, and I'll label it so it doesn't confuse anyone....

THREAD DRIFT..........

My mom had a storage unit in the facility on Burnet Road in Austin. Her unit was down the hall from the one rented my Ms. O'Hare, and it was therefore part of the targeted break-in when someone was looking for her gold. The same unit (Ms. O'Hare's, not Mom's) was searched when they were looking for her body.

Just a bit of atheist trivia. 

THREAD DRIFT!:hysterical:


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Having grown up in Austin, surrounded by the media who shared everything about MM O'Hare and her beliefs, I have quite a knowledge base. More than one person.
> 
> Obviously you are a former debate student to be so adept at taking a statement with a larger inherent and obvious meaning and pretending to misunderstand in an attempt to ridicule and discredit the speaker (or writer.)


Um....I believe you are the one that ridiculed me :shrug:


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> My question about "Who are you to say differently?" is directed at the collective you. Any one reading this at this time, at any future time, and/or anyone in the known and unknown universe.
> 
> A rhetorical question, too.


I don't believe anyone IS saying differently, so :shrug:



Alice In TX/MO said:


> Someone sure is entertaining herself with nit-pickin' on the Internet this evening.


Yes, you are.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Oggie said:


> Quite a few do.


Then I guess you are "lucky" to know some, the people I know, don't try to.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

*Well I can say one thing with absolute certainty ... we ain't no more livin in the Garden of Eden.... so go figure*


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

Shygal said:


> Most atheists dont try to convince everyone else that their way is the way.


Nope, we don't. We recognize futility when we see and feel no higher calling to make anyone do anything in order to gain an imaginary reward.
Just happy people trying to lead happy lives.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Shygal said:


> Then I guess you are "lucky" to know some, the people I know, don't try to.


Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and other authors and speakers plead their case every day.

It's their right. But let's not pretend that they're not trying to convince people.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

ChristyACB said:


> Why the rash of provoking posts lately that do nothing but either gloat over being a christian when others aren't (which is proof a person is nothing more than a very very bad christian), trying to provoke other than christians with stuff like this; or just plain judgmental christian stuff?
> 
> What gives?
> 
> If this is going to be a "for Christians only" board in actual intent with a caveat of "everyone is welcome so long as we can treat you like a lesser person" to pretend to be for everyone, then why not just say so?


I may be wrong, but I believe this thread is in response to another thread regarding judgement.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Oggie said:


> Personally, I believe that using the promise of heaven as some sort of justification for being a Christian is a mistaken notion.
> 
> Choosing that path should be reward enough.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with you on this.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Oggie said:


> Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and other authors and speakers plead their case every day.
> 
> It's their right. But let's not pretend that they're not trying to convince people.


I guess its not working very well because Ive never heard of them


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

HeritagePigs said:


> "There is no way on earth that I can believe in a God that would send people to hell if they lived a good life, followed the commandments, helped other people, etc."
> 
> or said this:
> 
> ...


Fine. We get it. You don't believe. There's really no need to keep injecting that point into every discussion. Seriously.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I' ve always been dumbfounded by the idea that an eternal soul is punished for an eternity for actions during a time span that doesn't amount to a blink of an eye in celestial time. Religion for ages has been a way to control the masses. 

Now that we know other planets exist around other stars in the universe in the band considered optimum for life it raises the question why we are so special that some entity spends every second of every day creating souls to briefly inhabit a physical body. 

BTW, I'm not an atheist.


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

English Oliver said:


> What happens if you are wrong?


In life we are not designed to be right. We're designed to be on a path of continuous learning and correcting ourselves as we gather new knowledge.

Learning is a constant process, and we will never know all of the truth.

So I'd say just try your best and let the rest of the foolish pandemonium called religion pass you by - it serves you no good to follow when others are made of the same stuff you are and may be just as human and error prone.

Or just look at my signature line below:
| |
VV


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Yeah! :thumb:

.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

naturelover said:


> Jesus only wept because his friend Lazarus had died. Then he commanded Lazarus to rise and live again. Which I think is the only time I know of that Jesus abused his powers for personal gain..


*********************************************************
again then. Jesus wasn't just weeping for his dead friend; but for those who lacked faith in who 
*HE* was. He already *KNEW*, (long before HE got to the tomb) that not only was 
his good friend going to die, but that he was going to rise again. Why on earth would you consider 
that *HE* abused *HIS* power for personal gain??? What personal gain could anyone possibly 
give *GOD*??? Gold, political power, the cattle on a thousand hills.....what?!!! God incarnate can do 
whatever *HE* wants to......I'm sure that Lazarus didn't feel particularly happy to come back 
from paradise; if even for an extended time on earth with his friends/family. He was already in 
a far better place than anything this earth has to offer.

And for the record......Jesus only spoke the words: _*"Lazarus come forth!"*_ And he did. 
Followed by: *"Unbind him, and let him go."*

It's indeed interesting to note that this particular 'act' of raising Lazarus from the dead, was the 
catalyst for the 'religious' authorities of the day. Many who witnessed what had occurred that 
day believed in Him, while others (having seen the same miracle) went and 'tattled' to the 
Pharisees and the high priest; Caiaphas, who, unknowingly, prophesied that it was better that one 
man should perish rather than the entire nation. 

And from that day on......they planned together to kill him (Jesus). 
And yet, they couldn't keep *HIM *in the grave either. *HE *lives today......


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## Jenn (Nov 9, 2004)

English Oliver said:


> If you are a christian, you believe in god, you believe in the scriptures, you raise you children in your beliefs, and you try to influence people you meet in your life with your beliefs. What if you are wrong, what happens when you die? Nothing.
> 
> If you are an atheist, you don't believe in god, you think the scriptures are fairy tales, you raise your children in your beliefs, and you try to influence people you meet in you life with your beliefs. What if you are wrong, what happens when you die, what happens to your children and the people you influenced in your life? Can't answer that one, can you?
> 
> "O"


"I contend that we are Both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" - Stephen Roberts

Good night, all!


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

copperkid3 said:


> God incarnate can do whatever *HE* wants to
> 
> ......I'm sure that Lazarus didn't feel particularly happy to come back
> from paradise; if even for an extended time on earth with his friends/family. He was already in a far better place than anything this earth has to offer.
> ...


So why do you think he brought Lazarus back then? What was the purpose, what was it supposed to prove? If he loved Lazarus so much why did he do such a cruel thing to his friend?

.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

ChristyACB said:


> Why the rash of provoking posts lately that do nothing but either gloat over being a christian when others aren't (which is proof a person is nothing more than a very very bad christian), trying to provoke other than christians with stuff like this; or just plain judgmental christian stuff?
> 
> What gives?
> 
> If this is going to be a "for Christians only" board in actual intent with a caveat of "everyone is welcome so long as we can treat you like a lesser person" to pretend to be for everyone, then why not just say so?


There are probably not enough people of the same general faith with adequately opposing views to fuel a lively debate visiting the bible topics board so they post here in an effort to find the fuel source they seek.


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## suzfromWi (Jun 1, 2002)

georger said:


> In life we are not designed to be right. We're designed to be on a path of continuous learning and correcting ourselves as we gather new knowledge.
> 
> Learning is a constant process, and we will never know all of the truth.
> 
> ...


Love this....


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Don't you know that the Great Spirit is laughing his fanny off at humans?:thumb:


How do you know he has a fanny? How do you know He is a he?


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

ChristyACB said:


> Why the rash of provoking posts lately that do nothing but either gloat over being a christian when others aren't (which is proof a person is nothing more than a very very bad christian), trying to provoke other than christians with stuff like this; or just plain judgmental christian stuff?
> 
> What gives?
> 
> If this is going to be a "for Christians only" board in actual intent with a caveat of "everyone is welcome so long as we can treat you like a lesser person" to pretend to be for everyone, then why not just say so?


Lately?! Heck, Christians do this on here all the time...They're always up for a game of, "I'm the best Christian because..."


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Reptyle said:


> How do you know he has a fanny? How do you know He is a he?


GOOD CATCH! She/he/it is laughing her/his/its ecoplasm off.

:rock:


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

georger said:


> In life we are not designed to be right. We're designed to be on a path of continuous learning and correcting ourselves as we gather new knowledge.
> 
> Learning is a constant process, and we will never know all of the truth.
> 
> ...


I'd say this is the post of the year!:goodjob:


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

naturelover said:


> So why do you think he brought Lazarus back then? What was the purpose, what was it supposed to prove? If he loved Lazarus so much why did he do such a cruel thing to his friend?.


*******************************************************
There are potentially, a number of reasons. As I already mentioned, this was the turning point 
for the Jewish authorities; from then on, they sought for a way to have him killed. They could not
allow *HIM* to go around bringing people back from the dead; it brought about too much attention; 
from the Roman authorities and from the common folk. If it was allowed to continue, there was 
a very good chance that there would be an uprising and it would definitely bring attention to 
those in power that 'the times, they were a changing'.....and stuff like that tends to sweep out 
those who have been using their positions for personal gain. More importantly however, 
it pointed out that the Messiah was in their midst and just as it was then when they got the news, 
those who hear it _*NOW*_ are faced with a choice: repent, worship the _*ONE*_ who 
created them and be saved.......or continue with the status quo. 

Paul was once one of those in the 'religious authority' who eventually saw the light 
(and the error of his ways) and said it best later, in 1 Corinthians the first chapter. 

1Cor 1:18 -_* For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, 
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
*_
1Cor 1:19 - _*For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, 
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE." 
*_
1Cor 1:22 - *For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom...
*

What was the purpose and what was it supposed to prove? How many people do you know 
that have been brought back from the dead? If you knew someone who had, and they told you 
who did it.......what would be your response to 'knowing or meeting that person'? 

And finally, who said that he did anything 'cruel' to his friend??? I only mentioned that he 
was probably happier being in paradise than coming back to this world. He would soon return 
and he was no doubt looking forward to it. Imagine what he was telling his family/friends, 
about what they would be seeing too.


----------



## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> the only atheist I have EVER seen try to influence people in what they think, is Willowgirl, to be honest.


But I'm not even an atheist! ound:


I'm agnostic.


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## gideonprime (Oct 17, 2007)

Shygal said:


> the only atheist I have EVER seen try to influence people in what they think, is Willowgirl, to be honest.
> 
> Atheists HAVE *no beliefs to raise their children in or to influence people*, so your question has no base to stand on.


Shy I disagree. We have many things we believe and can use to raise our children and influence people. Those beliefs are just not about the super natural. :shrug:


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

chickenslayer said:


> Sacrifice a couple of virgins, just to be sure












A DOUBLE! (spew alert too!)


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> But I'm not even an atheist! ound:
> 
> 
> I'm agnostic.


Then you dont know what agnostic means, because from every thing you post in religious threads , you are definitely stating the atheist point of view.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Then you dont know what agnostic means, because from every thing you post in religious threads , you are definitely stating the atheist point of view.


Nope; I'm agnostic -- a pragmatic agnostic, to be precise. Courtesy of Wikipedia:



> Apathetic agnosticism (also called pragmatic agnosticism) is the view that thousands of years of debate have neither proven, nor dis-proven, the existence of one or more deities (gods). This view concludes that even if one or more deities exist, they do not appear to be concerned about the fate of humans. Therefore, their existence has little impact on personal human affairs and should be of little theological interest.


An atheist believes there are NO GODS, period. I think it's extremely difficult to prove a negative. Just because god(s) don't seem to operate in any recognizable fashion isn't conclusive proof they don't exist.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> Nope; I'm agnostic -- a pragmatic agnostic, to be precise.


I guess that means that you believe in reincarnation.

"Hey look! I think that this old chair could become a unique holder for potted plants!"


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

willow_girl said:


> Nope; I'm agnostic -- a pragmatic agnostic, to be precise.


Well carp.
According to your definition, then I am dangerously close to being one as well.. sorta. Basically he/she/it doesn't think about me and I don't think about him/her/it either.
Though I do consider nature to be a force..sorta. I mean spring and seeds adn plants and cycles etc.. pretty powerful stuff, but I cannot classify that as a go or godlike force.

Easier just to say atheist.


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## bjba (Feb 18, 2003)

Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man's?
Friedrich Nietzsche

Nietzsche is nothing if not interesting.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I'm a pantheistic existentialist.


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## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I'm a pantheistic existentialist.


Is that worse than a pathetic agnostic?

"O"


----------



## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Jenn said:


> "I contend that we are Both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" - Stephen Roberts


I had never heard this quote before....I like it!

I've always wondered by religions of others are labeled "mythology" when the myths you, yourself, believe are called religion.

A friend of mine (who is not Christian but rather follows the old ways of the Norse) refers to Christians as "believers of the Jesus Myth". His feeling is that if you don't have a problem referring to his Gods as mythical, how can you have a problem with him referring to your God as a myth?

Does "Myth" = "Religion" ?


----------



## gracie88 (May 29, 2007)

> I think hanging with folks who gamble a little, smoke cigars, play a mean guitar like old JH and probably play a great deal of board games, have christmas, shop on sunday, eat meat on friday and all those other mortal sins would be way fun.


Hey, come on now, those aren't mortal sins. Except the board games. We also drink beer, although bad beer might be a gray area. Seriously, speculate about heaven and hell, of the lack thereof all you want, but don't pretend we're the fun police. Aside from a couple posters on here, we do know how to have a good time.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

bjba said:


> Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man's?
> Friedrich Nietzsche
> 
> Nietzsche is nothing if not interesting.


Thus Spake Zarathustra contains many thought provoking perspectives.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

English Oliver said:


> If you are a christian, you believe in god, you believe in the scriptures, you raise you children in your beliefs, and you try to influence people you meet in your life with your beliefs. What if you are wrong, what happens when you die? Nothing.
> 
> If you are an atheist, you don't believe in god, you think the scriptures are fairy tales, you raise your children in your beliefs, and you try to influence people you meet in you life with your beliefs. What if you are wrong, what happens when you die, what happens to your children and the people you influenced in your life? Can't answer that one, can you?
> 
> "O"





bjba said:


> Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man's?
> Friedrich Nietzsche
> 
> Nietzsche is nothing if not interesting.


What if God is wrong?

What if humans are just a mistaken experiment of God's and God is still learning from his mistakes?

.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

bjba said:


> Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man's?
> Friedrich Nietzsche
> 
> Nietzsche is nothing if not interesting.


"God is dead." -Nietzsche

"Nietzsche is dead." -God


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

The premise of this post is based on a well known logic experiment whose name escapes me.

It was actually proposed by an athiest, if I remember correctly.


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Ernie said:


> The premise of this post is based on a well known logic experiment whose name escapes me.
> 
> It was actually proposed by an athiest, if I remember correctly.


Are you referring to Pascal's Wager ?? - it has been mentioned a couple of times in this topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager



> *Pascal's Wager* (or *Pascal's Gambit*) is a suggestion posed by the French philosopher, mathematician and physicist Blaise Pascal that, even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose. Pascal formulated his suggestion uniquely on the God of Jesus Christ as implied by the greater context of his _PensÃ©es_, a posthumously published collection of notes made by Pascal in his last years as he worked on a treatise on Christian apologetics. However, some argue that Pascal's Wager also applies to gods of other religions and belief systems.
> 
> Pascal states, however, that some do not have the ability to believe. In this case, he directs them to live as though they had faith, which may lead them to belief. The Wager was set out in note 233 of his PensÃ©es.
> 
> ...


.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

gracie88 said:


> Hey, come on now, those aren't mortal sins. Except the board games. We also drink beer, although bad beer might be a gray area. Seriously, speculate about heaven and hell, of the lack thereof all you want, but don't pretend we're the fun police. Aside from a couple posters on here, we do know how to have a good time.


HERE HERE! (Becky lifts her Mike's Hard Mango Punch in a toast).(By the way, these are even yummier than Smirnoff Ice mango). 

You know, we actually like to dance, listen to music, enjoy a good fart joke now and then, and even wear jeans.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

naturelover said:


> Are you referring to Pascal's Wager ?? - it has been mentioned a couple of times in this topic.
> 
> .


Ah, yes. That would be the one. I only skimmed the topic. It looked like the usual suspects rendering the usual opinions and I wasn't too interested in the debate in the first place.


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Ah, yes. That would be the one. I only skimmed the topic. It looked like the usual suspects rendering the usual opinions and I wasn't too interested in the debate in the first place.


Pascal was a convert to Jansenism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jansenism

.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

That is EXACTLY why God laughs.:cute:


----------



## barber lady (Mar 31, 2010)

Darren said:


> Have you ever seen the move "What Dreams May Come" with Robin Williams? I think that may answer your question.


I only pray that I can paint my Heaven. And if my animals aren't there it won't be heaven. I'll go where they are.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

willow_girl said:


> But I'm not even an atheist! ound:
> 
> *Now you know people don't actually need any atheists around to start SEEING atheists*. :run:
> 
> ...


Somebody get the tar and feathers. :happy:


----------



## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

chickenista said:


> What of the millions and millions of people that lived before 33AD?
> I am sure there were plenty of very nice people that hurt no one, were always kind and generous etc...? Surely they cannot be burning in the eternal fire.
> 
> And I am very secure in my belief (or lack there of) and not in the least bit worried as to my future plans.


I don't have a bible near me so therefore I can't post scriptures but I will tell you the best way I can put it in words. 

After Jesus died on the cross, he spent 3 days in Hades. He knew he was to go there to keep many of us believers from ever going there. But while he was there, he gave the multitude of people who was already there before him, a chance to accept him as their savior and those who accepted was released from the land of Hades and was released unto heaven. 

Also, anyone who has died since then, that never had any knowledge of Jesus and his works, is accepted unto heaven because you are only accountable for what you know. But the more you know about him, the more you are accountable for. Therefore if you deny him, there will be no place in heaven for you. 

The land of Hades and all the people with in, will be cast into the lake of brimestone and fire and will burn eternally forever, and ever. It will not be a fun place to be as other people here seem to think.


----------



## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

ChristyACB said:


> Why the rash of provoking posts lately that do nothing but either gloat over being a christian when others aren't (which is proof a person is nothing more than a very very bad christian), trying to provoke other than christians with stuff like this; or just plain judgmental christian stuff?
> 
> What gives?
> 
> If this is going to be a "for Christians only" board in actual intent with a caveat of "everyone is welcome so long as we can treat you like a lesser person" to pretend to be for everyone, then why not just say so?


It's a mutual thing. I've been hanging around ever since the lusenet days (pre-Y2K) and every once in a while some Christian will start posting topics that keep making all the non-christians mad. Few months later some Athiest will start posting topics to make the Christians mad. The the Gay people will start in on topics to make Christians mad. Won't be long will have more new members on board and here we all go again. It's cyber history repeating itself. 10 years from now we'll all still be going at it over the same topics. :hammer:


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Life lived as a Christian is totally different than life lived as...well, in my case it's agnostic, not atheist. Being a Christian woman involves all sort of submission and putting up with unacceptable behavior from men. It means feeling like less of a person because you're female. It means missing out on a lot of things, such as speaking your mind, pursuing the career you want, and getting to choose when you have your babies, or if you have sex with your husband. It means that you pretty much are only friends with other people who believe more or less as you do, because people of other faiths are suspect and potential bad influences. It means that you have to be phony and pretend to be nicer than you feel like being. 

For me, being agnostic means that I can quit asking the sky for advice and help. I can get on with my life and I am equal to every other human, male or female. I have the same rights. I can be honest about expressing myself, I can think hateful things if I want to without feeling too guilty, and then move on and be my mellow old self again. I can be friends with a variety of people with a variety of beliefs without feeling like I'm failing if I don't convince them to think as I do. I can make decisions clearly without second guessing myself all the time or wondering if it is God's will for me to do something else. Life is better for me this way. :baby04:


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I guess that means that you believe in *reincarnation*.


Isn't that when you add more canned milk to your coffee?


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## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

Oldcountryboy said:


> But the more you know about him, the more you are accountable for. Therefore if you deny him, there will be no place in heaven for you.


 I think you hit that nail pretty square on the head. 

"O"


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## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

chamoisee said:


> Life lived as a Christian is totally different than life lived as...well, in my case it's agnostic, not atheist. Being a Christian woman involves all sort of submission and putting up with unacceptable behavior from men. It means feeling like less of a person because you're female. It means missing out on a lot of things, such as speaking your mind, pursuing the career you want, and getting to choose when you have your babies, or if you have sex with your husband. It means that you pretty much are only friends with other people who believe more or less as you do, because people of other faiths are suspect and potential bad influences. It means that you have to be phony and pretend to be nicer than you feel like being.


 You have been reading the wrong books to come to that conclusion. I know that there are men that will use religion to put women in that position, but in my opinion they are not Christians, they are @sshats and they aren't confined to Christianity. I have been married 47 years and my wife and I are 100% equals in all decisions that need to be made and it has been that way since day one. There are things like the ones that you listed that were missed out on, but we both missed out on them, because we were married and we had responsibilities to our family. What you are describing IMO is a single person. I don't lament for a second anything I missed out on or gave up because of my family and I guarantee my wife doesn't either.

"O"


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Oliver, we're glad it has worked for you, but I'm with Chamoisee on this one! Show me a church that teaches women independence, and it won't be main stream Christian.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

chamoisee said:


> Life lived as a Christian is totally different than life lived as...well, in my case it's agnostic, not atheist. Being a Christian woman involves all sort of submission and putting up with unacceptable behavior from men. It means feeling like less of a person because you're female. It means missing out on a lot of things, such as speaking your mind, pursuing the career you want, and getting to choose when you have your babies, or if you have sex with your husband. It means that you pretty much are only friends with other people who believe more or less as you do, because people of other faiths are suspect and potential bad influences. It means that you have to be phony and pretend to be nicer than you feel like being.


Wow! You've really been misled (or do not understand) the scriptural principles of marriage.

Being the head does not mean being a tyrant or dictator. And being submissive does not mean being a door mat.


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## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Oliver, we're glad it has worked for you, but I'm with Chamoisee on this one! Show me a church that teaches women independence, and it won't be main stream Christian.


 Show me a marriage (that lasts) where any woman or man is completely independent from their spouse or children. If you want independence, stay single, because you won't stay married long.

"O"


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

English Oliver said:


> If you are a christian, you believe in god, you believe in the scriptures, you raise you children in your beliefs, and you try to influence people you meet in your life with your beliefs. What if you are wrong, what happens when you die? Nothing.
> 
> If you are an atheist, you don't believe in god, you think the scriptures are fairy tales, you raise your children in your beliefs, and you try to influence people you meet in you life with your beliefs. What if you are wrong, what happens when you die, what happens to your children and the people you influenced in your life? Can't answer that one, can you?
> 
> "O"


If I did not have a personal relationship with The Savior, Jesus Christ.....after reading this above statement.....I wouldn't want one.

Believers, who are called by His Name, need to represent Him, in Truth, and in Love. Truth+Love. All we can do is live the life, He has asked of us. We are not responsible, or even capable of anothers Salvation. 
It is not for us to Judge (THIS Is where that grossly overused verse fits!!) nor is it for us to claim. Salvation is between God, and the individual. Period.

This 'question' paints the Lord in a way that is nothing like who He is.


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

bluemoonluck said:


> I had never heard this quote before....I like it!
> 
> I've always wondered by religions of others are labeled "mythology" when the myths you, yourself, believe are called religion.
> 
> ...


I likewise am a Norse Pagan, we call it "Asatru, True to the Aesir". Some also call it Germanic Heathenry. We pay Homage to the Old Germanic Ancestral Gods, that predated the advent of Christianity.We believe in a Folk Religion and that the different Pantheons or Families of Gods are Culturally related to various Peoples/Folk or Cultural Groups.

We don't criticise anyone's Belief in whatever Myths they choose.
Many of us believe that Jesus was a Desert Prophet, of a Middle Eastern Desert God and active in his Ancestral Religion until he was killed. Judaism is a Folk Religion.
Christianity and Islam are both outgrowth of the Jewish Belief System and their Myths and Legends, as told in the OT of the Bible.

The Myths are all Ancient......The Religions built around them are pretty much Man-made. My POV, Believe what you want to...........
It is all about Belief, yours, mine or anyone else's.
You believe in your "Proofs", I believe in mine.
Have Fun


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## Fae (Mar 9, 2005)

This is a very thought provoking thread. For myself, I am a christian and do not like religion because I believe that is where the problems begin. I am also perfectly happy to let everyone be what they are but, it has taken me a long time to get to that place.


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

English Oliver said:


> If you are a christian, you believe in god, you believe in the scriptures, you raise you children in your beliefs, and you try to influence people you meet in your life with your beliefs. What if you are wrong, what happens when you die? Nothing.
> 
> If you are an atheist, you don't believe in god, you think the scriptures are fairy tales, you raise your children in your beliefs, and you try to influence people you meet in you life with your beliefs. What if you are wrong, what happens when you die, what happens to your children and the people you influenced in your life? Can't answer that one, can you?
> 
> "O"


I can tell you that anyone who forces belief based on covering the odds that they MIGHT be wrong isn't going to be in any better a situation than the atheist.


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## Jan Doling (May 21, 2004)

Even if there were no reward or afterlife (which I guarantee you, there is!) a Christian lifestyle avoids pitfalls, unnecessary drama, and consequences I would not wish on anyone. Righteousnous is its own reward. Plus you have given something invaluable and touched the lives of countless others.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Jan Doling said:


> Even if there were no reward or afterlife (which I guarantee you, there is!) a Christian lifestyle avoids pitfalls, unnecessary drama, and consequences I would not wish on anyone. Righteousnous is its own reward. Plus you have given something invaluable and touched the lives of countless others.


Couldn't this statement be said of most of the widely accepted religions? Most religions teach people to treat others as they would want to be treated and to do things that are right and good.


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

Jan Doling said:


> Even if there were no reward or afterlife (which I guarantee you, there is!) a Christian lifestyle avoids pitfalls, unnecessary drama, and consequences I would not wish on anyone. Righteousnous is its own reward. Plus you have given something invaluable and touched the lives of countless others.


It's not necessary to be Christian to avoid drama and pitfalls and live a morally righteous life, or to give something back to your community and touch the lives of others in a positive way. Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on these values.

There are people who are Christian (believe in Christ and worship according to the tenets of Christian religious theology as presented to them by the leaders of their denomination), who I wouldn't care to have in my personal sphere at any price. There are also many non-Christians whose way of life could be exemplified as superior to many "Christians"; those who carry on a life of service to others, joy and encouragement of their fellow man, yet don't believe that Jesus was the son of God.

You don't have to be Christian to be a good person, and being Christian doesn't guarantee that you are. 

I have traveled much, been exposed to many people of many different faiths, cultures and backgrounds, and IMHO one thing holds true: there are good and bad aspects of every belief system, and good and bad people who follow all of them. If I've learned nothing else, it's that faith is something separate from morality -- people of the highest morals can be without faith in a deity of any kind, and some of the worst actions by man against his fellow human beings have been undertaken in the name of religion.

Denominations all have their own version of what you have to do in order to be "acceptable" to God. My personal belief is that the things you do for "show" in front of your fellow man are to confirm your acceptability to those fellow men -- not to God. God sees what is in our hearts, and that is the only thing that counts, from either side of the fence.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Tracy Rimmer said:


> It's not necessary to be Christian to avoid drama and pitfalls and live a morally righteous life, or to give something back to your community and touch the lives of others in a positive way. Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on these values.
> 
> There are people who are Christian (believe in Christ and worship according to the tenets of Christian religious theology as presented to them by the leaders of their denomination), who I wouldn't care to have in my personal sphere at any price. There are also many non-Christians whose way of life could be exemplified as superior to many "Christians"; those who carry on a life of service to others, joy and encouragement of their fellow man, yet don't believe that Jesus was the son of God.
> 
> ...


:goodjob:


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Oliver, we're glad it has worked for you, but I'm with Chamoisee on this one! Show me a church that teaches women independence, and it won't be main stream Christian.


Hmmmmmm, maybe that's why we belong to a small home church! Nothing mainstream about us! 

Trust me folks, my wife does not in any way resemble the person described a few posts above! And I am glad for it. I have an equal partner, not a robot or slave.




Tim


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Isn't that when you add more canned milk to your coffee?


I'm proud of you Pookie, your sense of humor has been showing lately


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

"Even if there were no reward or afterlife (which I guarantee you, there is!)"

Is that guarantee worth the paper it isn't written on? :cowboy:


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## OUVickie (Mar 8, 2003)

tarbe said:


> It is not about "having the right religion". Religion cannot save anyone. Religion is man's attempt to save himself (my $0.02).
> Tim


This reminds me of something my brother told me several years back. He said one day at work a guy holding Bible studies asked him "So, what religion are you?"
He asked back, "What religion is God?"

He said the guy just said, "Good question" and walked off.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Jan Doling said:


> Even if there were no reward or afterlife (which I guarantee you, there is!) a *Christian lifestyle* avoids pitfalls, unnecessary drama, and consequences I would not wish on anyone. *Righteousnous* is its own reward. Plus you have *given something invaluable* and touched the lives of countless others.


I would appreciate if you could elaborate on that for the benefit of someone like me who is not a Christian and doesn't really understand what you just said.

What is a Christian lifestyle? What are the pitfalls, drama and consequences that the Christian lifestyle helps you to avoid?

How do you define righteousness from your point of view?

By living a Christian lifestyle, what do you believe is the invaluable thing that you are giving to countless others?

.


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

ChristyACB said:


> Seriously, where do you people get this stuff? Of all crimes in the US guess who ranks lowest in committing them...athiests..and that IS accounting for population percentages. Who does the most? Christians by a huge honking long shot.


It is Satans mission to destroy as many humans as possible because we are made in the image of God, and Satan hates God. Therefore he will do anything possible to destroy as many Christians as he can. He works harder on Christians trying to get them to destroy theirselves through many sins. Adultry, murder, stealing, or just any of the 10 commandments. 

Now does he work that hard on Athiest? The answer is "no". He doesn't have to work that hard on Athiest cause so long as they don't accept Jesus as their savour, then they are going to be destroyed anyway. An Athiest can live life with almost no sin at all. He can donate to charity, save lives in hospitals, be a teacher in a public or private school, be president of a country and be well liked by his people. But when the end comes for him, he/she is going to be destroyed anyway if they don't accept Jesus as their saviour, and Satan knows this. Therefor he could care less of what a Athiest does or doesn't do, so long as they don't accept Jesus. But if a Athiest accepts Jesus, watch out, cause satan is gonna be teed off and will do whatever he can to destroy that former Athiest.


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## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

Oldcountryboy said:


> It is Satans mission to destroy as many humans as possible because we are made in the image of God, and Satan hates God. Therefore he will do anything possible to destroy as many Christians as he can. He works harder on Christians trying to get them to destroy theirselves through many sins. Adultry, murder, stealing, or just any of the 10 commandments.
> 
> Now does he work that hard on Athiest? The answer is "no". He doesn't have to work that hard on Athiest cause so long as they don't accept Jesus as their savour, then they are going to be destroyed anyway. An Athiest can live life with almost no sin at all. He can donate to charity, save lives in hospitals, be a teacher in a public or private school, be president of a country and be well liked by his people. But when the end comes for him, he/she is going to be destroyed anyway if they don't accept Jesus as their saviour, and Satan knows this. Therefor he could care less of what a Athiest does or doesn't do, so long as they don't accept Jesus. But if a Athiest accepts Jesus, watch out, cause satan is gonna be teed off and will do whatever he can to destroy that former Athiest.


Ummmm, what did Satan do to occupy his time before Jesus, I guess he pretty much left everybody alone.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Shygal said:


> There is no way on earth that I can believe in a God that would send people to hell if they lived a good life, followed the commandments, helped other people, etc.



I understand what you are saying....but consider that you are assuming that our (human's) standards are what matter. If we got to choose, then yes...lots of people would be A-OK.

At least according to the Bible, God's standard is perfection....a perfection that is only found in Christ.

So it is not of him who wills or runs, but of Him who shows mercy.

peace,


Tim


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

chickenslayer said:


> Ummmm, what did Satan do to occupy his time before Jesus, I guess he pretty much left everybody alone.


No, because God gave promises of the saviour to come from almost the beginning of the books and people who were well scriptured was given a choice to believe. Therefore Satan still had a job to do.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Oldcountryboy said:


> An Athiest can live life with almost no sin at all. He can donate to charity, save lives in hospitals, be a teacher in a public or private school, be president of a country and be well liked by his people. But when the end comes for him, he/she is going to be destroyed anyway if they don't accept Jesus as their saviour


And theres no way I can believe in a God like that.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

tarbe said:


> At least according to the Bible, God's standard is perfection....a perfection that is only found in Christ.


I don't think Jesus was all that perfect. He was so moody and unreasonable that he killed a fig tree because he was ticked that it wasn't bearing fruit out of season. None of us here would do that. He was using the poor tree as an example, but what the heck did the tree do to deserve that? If any of us met soemone who did that to an apple or peach tree, we'd think they were a little off their rocker, and far, far from perfect. 

But the thing is, God gets to decide the definition of perfection, and then he gets to hold us to it, and then he gets to torment us eternally if we can't live up to it. That's not a perfect god. That's a bully, and he's an awful lot like an abusive man.


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

Shygal said:


> And theres no way I can believe in a God like that.


Would you share your home with someone who doesn't respect or acknowledge you?


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Oliver, we're glad it has worked for you, but I'm with Chamoisee on this one! Show me a church that teaches women independence, and it won't be main stream Christian.


It's not intended for a woman to be independent, nor is it intended for a man to be the sole ruler of the household. It is intended for a man and wife to be one. She consoles in him and he is to listen and make good judgement without descrepency toward her. This is a big problem in many marriages, Christian and non Christian.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Oldcountryboy said:


> Would you share your home with someone who doesn't respect or acknowledge you?


Nope. But I respect and acknowledge God.


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

I'd like to point out something that others seem to criticize - in fact, that others seem to almost GLORY in criticizing and pointing out.

I see LOADS of posts and hear of LOADS of examples, both on this site and other sites, and both on the internet and in real life, criticizing 'the Christian lifestyle.' People allude to how the divorce rate amongst Christians is higher, how many Christians seem to not want to go outside of their nice little bubble and help others out, etc.

And in truth, much of that is flat out true.

HOWEVER...it annoys me to no end to see the flat-out enmity/hatred/arrogant distaste leveled @ Christians/Christianity in general. And when I say that I mean TRUE Christians/Christianity. 

The Bible itself speaks of the narrow road; and people criticize the vast amount of Christians that screw up, don't do what the Bible says, and nonbelievers the world over point to Christianity (or what they VIEW as Christianity) as an example of how not to conduct a faith/religion...when the Bible *ITSELF* forecasted this. It's nothing new.

Simply put, criticism is misplaced. Plenty of Christians screw up; and as the saying goes, I am chief amongst sinners. NO ONE knows how far short I fall of His mark more than I do. But it's sure not for lack of trying...and there are just as many GOOD Christians out there, about His work, as there are bad ones.

However, they're like the mainstream media...they're not newsworthy, they don't 'prove any points' with anyone, they don't fit the nice little stereotype of yet another example of how 'Christianity doesn't work.' So you rarely hear about them.

Hey, if you choose not to accept it, great. :shrug: It's not for everyone. But with all due respect, people screw up because they are PEOPLE. Christians screwing up doesn't mean the faith itself is the problem; it's the PEOPLE that are at fault. Each and EVERY time I talk to someone who is vehemently against Christianity (and I'm willing to allow that there are those who disagree on PURELY intellectual grounds, but I've yet to run across one), I find one of two things:

1) They were a member of a church/congregation that so OBVIOUSLY committed grievous wrongs towards them that are so OBVIOUSLY not in line with what Christ/the Bible taught; 

2) It was obvious that some key figure in their lives left an extremely bad taste in their mouths regarding the Christian faith.

And I do mean every time. Yet the blame still gets hung on the faith itself. And the most AMAZING thing is that 99% of the time, these charges I speak of are brought by those preaching 'tolerance' and 'kindness' and such.

A great example of this is the Christian idea of righteousness. PROPERLY defined, it speaks about the state of continually leading a life that is pleasing to God. (GOD, not man.) The Merriam-Webster definition is 'acting in accord with divine/moral law', amongst other definitions. So when a Christian says that righteousness is a reward, or that someone is 'righteous', it merely means they are striving to act in accord with His word. That's it.

However, ask any believer what they think about Christianity and righteousness.  I'm quite sure the answers won't be as I posted above. Yet the answer is rather commonplace, nothing out of the ordinary about it. It is, however, the hosers that have messed it up; and I can't talk about righteousness with ANY nonbeliever without almost seeing a little thought bubble pop above their head with "self-" inside it. 

Merely an illustration of something that's bothered me for a long time; what passes for Christianity and what IS Christianity; what passes for acting in accordance with His word, and what truly IS acting in accordance with His word, are not only two vastly different things, but are vastly misrepresented - both by Christians and nonChristians alike.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

English Oliver said:


> Everyone cannot be wrong.
> 
> "O"


Sure they can, there is no guarantee anyone is right.

It is my understanding that atheists assume they will cease to be entirely when they die, that there is no afterlife.

Ask yourself this, what happened to all those people who died before christianity? All the billions who died believing in a different religion, greeks, romans, native americans, chinese...


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Jan Doling said:


> Righteousnous is its own reward. Plus you have given something invaluable and touched the lives of countless others.


Exactly, righteousness also requires no faith in god and requires no religion.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Shygal said:


> And theres no way I can believe in a God like that.


I could believe in it if it were shown to exist, but I would NEVER worship a god like that. I reserve my worship for people(and gods) I consider worthy of it. I would no more worship an inferior god than I would worship a human like Adolf Hitler or Bill Clinton.:nono:


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