# selecting harness



## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I am looking at outfitting my miniature team with harness. There is really only one place locally and they have two types to chose from. One with breast harness, and one with light collars and traces. I know that breast harness can only be used if the traces are about level so that it doesn't slide up into the wind pipe, but with miniatures the traces can't go down to far, since their legs are too short. The other thing is with a team harness the Martingale will hold the breast plate from riding up........ So I was leaning towards outfitting them with the breast harness, but then I was told that the full collar harness would be better. They are both leather, ( I would have rather they were nylon, since leather is so hard to care for) but which harness would you choose to outfit miniatures? 
http://www.ronshorseharness.com/product/prestige-miniature-team-horse-harness-with-collar-and-hames/

http://www.ronshorseharness.com/product/presidential-miniature-team-horse-harness-copy/


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

Keep shopping, with other harness makers. Breast collar and neck collar harness both can have martingales to keep things out of the windpipes. I have heard that Mini equines are hard to fit with neck collars because there just is not much room on them, so fit needs to be about exact. Neck collars fit will change with equine fitness, gaining or losing weight. Can be more expensive to have collars that fit all those size changes.

I have heard good things about these folks working with you for the best fit. Not sure if the Comfy Fit harness is leather or Sythetic. Folks do like the construction, fit, cost compared to other harness. Free to talk to them with your questions! You can return things to improve the fit, though good measuring when ordering usually will get things just right.

http://www.chimacumtack.com/

There is a lot of harness available on Face Book, thru the Carriage driving classified site. Odd spelling, but that is the correct name. You can view or join to ask about used equipment. Lots of ads, so you have choices, but also lots of new stuff so ad might get lost under others coming after. Synthetic of quality can be as expensive as leather, especially if a good brand name like Zilco.

You plan to use the harness for work, not carriage driving, is that correct? The very light harness for showing would not be suitable for what you want, with thin straps, not made for hauling loads.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

Thanks for the detailed answer. I do have a standardbred with work harness, so I was thinking driving the team of miniatures might be the best I could do with them. I just don't know. I do know that I want the miniatures to DO something, not just stand there and look cute. 

The problem is that since I live in Canada, if I buy from an American company there is a duty to pay when the product crosses the boarder. The other problem is, I don't know how much it is, but I ordered a 150$ pair of dog clippers once, and got hit with an 80$ charge at the door when they were delivered for "duty". That means I am a little afraid to order harness from the states, which is where most of it is made. 

I could drive to the place I listed in my OP, and there is another hand made harness shop 2 hours from home. Beautiful harness, but VERY expensive. I have bought one collar from Aaron Martin harness in Ontario, and I might have to order from him, I don't know yet......


aaronmartin.com/


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

Do you have your vehicle picked out? No matter whether you go with collar or breast-collar style, it will help to know how the ponies fit in the vehicle and what the angle of draft is. As you alluded, you don't want the traces to draw "uphill" or even level, but from a lower point to make the pull comfortable and efficient. I get that the little boogers have short legs. Best to get them used to stepping back over the traces, 'cuz if their legs are real short, it's gonna happen. Once you have figured out a vehicle that fits them, THEN I'd work on buying harness for them.

As to collar vs. breast collar - to me it depends on how much they are going to pull. Frankly, I don't think I'd piddle around with full collars for mini's. And I'd shy away from the cheap nylon harnesses. Good stuff like Bio-thane is different, but while you may save on maintenance with nylon, leather or the good synthetics are much more comfortable and adjustable for the ponies.

I looked at the two harnesses you listed. Hope you aren't worried about the traces in this pic - these ponies are just hitched wrong.









You can see that the traces are miles too long, and the ponies need to be moved further up the pole. The breast collar harness that this company has looks nice, and if that price is for the pair, a decent deal.

http://www.ronshorseharness.com/product/presidential-miniature-team-horse-harness-copy/

The ponies pictured in the link directly above are hitched correctly as you can see...even with their short little legs.  No danger of them stepping over.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

They will be hooked on a small wagon, that has a flat bed about 12" above the ground. 


Yes, I knew that the horse with the full collars were hooked wrong. I wouldn't use the pole straps like that either, I would use a yoke. I think there would be less "slapping of the pole".

I talked to a harness maker today, and he is going to build me a breast plate and traces for the single harness I have ( it has a broken trace). He is going to put on the D link for the pole strap and the extra neck strap so I can use it for a team later. Our filly is just 2 so I am going to break her single first, then I will buy the other harness when I can afford it. 

I chose to go that route because, although a harness package is cheaper, what if I break a piece and they don't sell pieces separately. This harness shop is just two hours from here, he told me what and how to measure to get it built, and the breast plate will have the V under the windpipe for comfort. 

sackvilleharness.com/


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

Alder said:


> I looked at the two harnesses you listed. Hope you aren't worried about the traces in this pic - these ponies are just hitched wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will agree with the traces being too loosely fitted in the picture, but the pole straps are perfectly fitted to the ponies. Equines need the length of those straps, pole to the end of their (resting) noses for control of the vehicle. Straps coming back at the slighter angle with length, means ponies are traveling with bodies straight forward. You don't want a short pole making short pole straps pull the chests sideways to the pole. Longer length ahead of the shoulder also gives the animals leverage in controlling their load behind. This is a CARRIAGE driving set-up, rather than the yoke configuration common on Draft type animals. If pole is long enough to reach nose ends, has clearance behind the animals, you can fit the trace lengths snuggly to the animals. The ponies would not be slopping around beside the pole.

You do need a pole that is self-supporting to use the pole straps as shown in the photo. Such a pole could be called a fixed pole or sprung pole because it has a spring to have pole hold itself up. 

The lighter poles used on buggies, held up with yoke on the ponies chest, are NOT self-supporting. Animals hold the pole up and have to also carry the weight of yoke and pole on their necks. So ponies can be sore necked if used a lot, maybe have a narrow strap on the breast collar to carry the weight. You will also see this type unsprung pole with a yoke on light wagons, so ponies have to carry that weight on their necks. 

The pole STILL needs the length out to their nose, so ponies can manage to keep control of the load, keep the yoke on the pole if there is any trace looseness between yoke and singletrees. You SURE don't want the yoke coming off the pole end while riding in the vehicle!

We have a "modern yoke" on our modern vehicle with a self-sprung pole. Horse have no weight on their necks with this arrangement. Yoke is metal, bolted to the end of short pole, can't come off. Pole length ends at horse chest so yoke is directly ahead of chests, snaps to HEAVY breast collars with snap shackles for easy release if needed. Horses have good control of carriage with this set-up, yoke does not allow much play (pole end movement) on horses, even though pole is pretty short. 

I do NOT suggest using a short pole with any kind of pole straps, it changes everything in control of vehicle. We have buckle-in traces, so we can shorten them or lengthen them according to need, with each vehicle. We are not locked into one kind of trace ends or pole length on a new vehicle. Rules for CDE require a certain space between equine and vehicle, can not be fastened shorter, so we go with this thinking in fitting horses to a vehicle.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

Thanks for the information. I have only ever used draft horses/ ponies, and we always used a yoke so that is the only way I know. But I definitely want to learn, so thanks for the detailed information. I don't know what a "self supporting" pole is, but I will try to find a picture on the internet. 

The wagon I am planning to use, has a ATV pole on it which hinges up and down, so I know that is not a self supporting pole. The horses don't have to carry the weight of the gig, because of the 4 wheels, but will have to carry the pole, so they would need a yoke anyway???


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

I can't seem to find a picture of a "fixed Pole". Does anyone have one? or know where I can find a picture of one? I would like to see what was described in a post a few days ago.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

It's just a wagon tongue that sticks straight out from the wagon, parallel to the ground. When you unhook the horses from the tongue and walk them away, the tongue stays sticking straight out in space... doesn't drop down and hit the ground. Common in some circles. Also called a stiff tongue.










When hitching to a stiff tongue, your horses need to not be held apart by a neck yoke. They need to be able to come together when crossing a ditch, for example. Think about what happens when the horses walk down into a ditch but the front wheels of the wagon haven't gotten to the ditch yet. Tongue up in the air, horses down in the ditch. In order for that to work, the horses have to come together.

The terrain I drive on is too varied to use a stiff tongue. It's a flatlander's vehicle.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

That would explain why I haven't seen that type of pole on a piece of farm equipment. Well, the wagon I will be using will have a flexible pole, so I will be using a yoke, 

http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/2-200-lb-adjustable-steel-utility-wagon/A-p2440011e

This is the wagon I am planning to use.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

Here is a shot of a modern type carriage, designed for doing Combined Driving Marathon courses. Metal wheels, sturdy for going over rough ground with a Pair.
Pole is padded heavily, goes up and down, with springs to make it self supporting. No pole weight on the horses 99% of the time they are hitched. Might have some weight on an uphill or down, for a few moments. Yoke is on the pole end, has quick-release snap shackles to attach yoke to horse breast collars rings.

http://s1355.photobucket.com/user/g...DSCN2746_1394_zps4220e90a.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2

These photos show how the pole attaches to vehicle, has flat springs in the tube where it is fastened to the vehicle. You can adjust the spring setting to make pole end higher or lower, using a tight spring setting or very loose spring setting. Other brand name vehicles will have other ways to keep their poles suspended.

http://s1355.photobucket.com/user/g...DSCN2745_1393_zps8f79a62a.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3

http://s1355.photobucket.com/user/g...DSCN2743_1391_zps88df85f8.jpg.html?sort=3&o=5

The only photo I could find shows the fixed pole from the front, no details at the carriage front. Pole is straight, tail end goes thru the bar and ends in the socket of fifth-wheel that allows turning of the axle. Bar can have singletrees or bolts to anchor roller-bolt trace ends for pulling with. Pole is stiff, holds itself up. This photo has a singletree hung at the front, to use with a Unicorn (3 horse) hitch, single Leader out in front of the Pair. Unicorn is mostly for show now, but had a purpose in the past. Horses in the photo are in the midst of hitching, not firmly done up to drive yet. Pole straps get tightened last in the process, then Leader is put on in front. 

http://s1355.photobucket.com/user/g.../DSCN2056_621_zps2tqhebr3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3

I will keep looking for the pictures of how a fixed pole is on a vehicle, but not handy right now.

Jennie is correct on that wagon picture with fixed pole, which looks like a European hay wagon. American wagons have always had the tongue that goes up and down, in my experience. Buggies with the pole and a yoke were used for the same reason, more adaptable on rough roads or ground they drove over. Fixed pole is helpful in not adding constant pole/tongue weight to horse neck during a long day of work. Fixed poles are most used on nice, often heavy carriages, road vehicles, not on vehicles going on rough mountain roads, cross country in farm work. The ability of tongue to go up and down a LOT on wagons, made it much more useful to folks with only one wagon or vehicle. Horse had to get used to managing the weight of tongue on his neck, while Teamster had to take care not to sore up his horses necks in using them.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Most draft horse show hitch wagons are fixed-tongue and I'm not sure why. I'm guessing it allows for more action in the show ring when they aren't carrying the weight of the tongue.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Fixed tongue and breast chains (not yoke) seem to be common in the tobacco-growing areas of the US, and often used with mules.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

A funny thing happened today. I was driving to town ( which I do almost daily) and noticed something that I hadn't seen before. One of the local dairy farms has the poles on his silage wagons "self supporting". He has an eye bolt in about the middle of the pole, with a cable up to the front of the wagon, with a heavy spring in the middle of the cable. Apparently, it is so he can hook and unhook without getting off of his tractor. It just blows my mind that I never saw it before. 

Anyhow something similar would take so of the weight of the horses necks.......


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Here's a pretty simple setup I saw a few years back.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Don't know if you can make it out but it's just a couple of eyebolts, a big spring and a turnbuckle for adjustment.


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## minister man (Jan 14, 2007)

That does seem like a pretty simple set up.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

With the wagon pictured, you have solid metal to anchor that support and have the weight of tongue not affect the vehicle. With carriages, the front end is not made to carry weight, so most of those springs will hurt the vehicle over time. Some add-ons actually will pull dashboard, floor apart since carriages are lightly built to not wear out the horses pulling them.

We tried the spring on a vehicle, to get that buggy pole weight off their necks, but it pulled the turntable forward, along with the front axle, so it was not on the carriage very long. We sure didn't want to damage the integrity of the body, since spring was stronger than the light wood and metal parts.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Also, you can bet that wagon with the canvas top will seldom be intentionally pulled at speeds over a walk.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

With heavy horses, most American teamsters drive the team up to the pole and one horse has to step over to get into position to be hitched. A lot easier for a one-man (or woman) operation. A fixed pole on a heavy rig would be a burden that way.

I have messed with antique fine carriages that have fixed poles, and you have to have an extra hand so the horses can be led up. In my experience, the fixed poles are for flat city streets. I wouldn't want one on a rig over hilly ground. And I agree - in light horses, it's so the horses have more free action.


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