# Pasturing, Planting & Rotational Grazing



## JenniferLedlow

We are fencing off 2 acres for our five Large Blacks and I'm wondering if it's big enough that they won't turn it all to mud? It's got a lot of good grass and clover. Also, what does everyone use for water? They are using a big tub now, but they like to dump it. We don't plan on keeping all four gilts unless they all turn out to be great moms.


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## highlands

That is too big. Instead fence the two acres with a good strong perimeter fence and then divide it up into multiple paddocks so that you can do rotational grazing to prevent any one area from getting too beaten up. As you rotate them, plant behind them. This will improve the forages, break parasite life cycles, prevent compaction of the soil and gradually improve the pasture. 

Rotational grazing is pretty simple to implement and allows you to produce a lot of food for their diet. The basic rule is don't leave the animals on a paddock longer than about two weeks - much shorter is much better. Don't return to a paddock for at least 21 days - longer is better. Smaller paddocks are better than bigger paddocks. Mob grazing is useful for knocking down brush and opening up the soil for seeding. This breaks the parasite life cycles and gives the forages time to regrow. We also do frost, storm and mob seeding behind the rotations.

On the waterer, if you sink the barrel into the ground and put a small hole at the top for them to drink out of then they can't move it. Put some rocks in the barrel so they can't dive in and drown.

Here are some articles on how we do rotational grazing, fencing and water:

http://www.sugarmtnfarm.com/?s=rotational grazing

http://www.sugarmtnfarm.com/?s=fencing

http://www.sugarmtnfarm.com/?s=waterers

http://www.sugarmtnfarm.com/?s=frost seeding

Cheers,

-Walter Jeffries
Sugar Mountain Farm
in Vermont

PS. I have added the word Pasture to your title and will make it a sticky for this sort of discussion as this topic comes up a lot.


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## highlands

From the Feed thread a list of links about what to plant in pasture:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/508933-pigs-clear-land.html
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/509066-does-hay-make-sense.html
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/509066-does-hay-make-sense.html
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/508184-growing-your-own-feed.html
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/508502-new-rasing-pigs-pasture-help.html
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/507390-planting-ideas-low-lands.html
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/507888-help-new-pastured-pigs.html
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/505550-pasture-planting-no-till-%ages.html
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/pigs/205131-feed-4.html

Be sure to get a soil test so you know what you're starting with for your soil conditions.


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## PasturedPork

The most important species will be legumes - pigs can utilize legumes well. Grasses are good roughage but not much nutrition. Some broad leaf plants are very useful.

On my place it is difficult to raise ruminant because the pasture is so "hot" (high protein from mostly legume composition) that it's bad for the ruminants.

Depending on how many large blacks you have and what you feed them you might be good on 2 acres. It's real difficult to say over the internet.

Rule of thumb is that if they are ripping up the pasture real bad then just feed them more. 

Good luck and let us know if you have any other questions


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## highlands

Grasses are good nutrition for pigs and they can get a lot of food value out of them. It depends on the type of grass and the stage of growth. Grasses produce softer leaf growth earlier on which the pigs benefit from. This is much like with sheep and cattle although cattle can digest rougher stems better. Grasses at later stages produce seed heads which benefit the pigs as well.

Best of all is a good mix of forage species rather than a monoculture.

First time through a new pasture they may root more because there may be good tubers and grubs below the soil but later if they're rooting too much then rotate them faster. Rooting is a indicator for rotation. See:

http://SugarMtnFarm.com/rootless-in-vermont/

We do managed rotational grazing and our pigs get the vast majority of their diet from pasture and we get very little rooting.


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## PasturedPork

Diet isn't really quantity it's calorie. Highlands it sounds to me that your pigs are getting most of their calories from whey and milk products and eggs, not the forage. 

I do managed rotational grazing without feeding 2000 gallons of whey a week or eggs. Highlands your pigs diet is, on a calorie basis very little pasture. I think you have a neat system and probably great pork. 

Everyone's different and nobodies 100% got the perfect system. I feed whole grains and no protein source so therefore I need to use the pasture for protein. Our diverse mixture of legumes, forbs and grasses provides a pasture based diet that on a calorie basis is more dependent on forage then external inputs.


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## highlands

PasturedPork, I've raised pigs solely on pasture without the eggs, whey or anything else and they do fine. It takes a few months longer for them to get to market weight and they are lean due to the lower calorie diet. Adding whey brings the growth rate in the warm season up to the same six months that commercial feeds offer.

You seem to think I'm telling people they have to not use grain. That is not the case at all. I'm suggesting including managed rotational grazing as part of the system what ever else people are feeding. It need not be an all or nothing. Do what works for you. Just don't dismiss how other people are succeeding just because you haven't done it. Be open to other possibilities even if you don't want to do it that way.

A great thing about pigs are they are omnivores that can thrive on a wide variety of diets in a wide variety of conditions.


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## kaniacarpentry

What would be the best things to plant in the paddocks after the pigs are moved?


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## PasturedPork

kaniacarpentry said:


> What would be the best things to plant in the paddocks after the pigs are moved?



Nothing. You want to move the animals out before they overgraze or root up the pasture. If it has good grass and legumes then rotate them before the grass is below 6" tall then rest 21 days or more.


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## Gravytrain

kaniacarpentry said:


> What would be the best things to plant in the paddocks after the pigs are moved?


It would depend on where you are at and what time of year. I feel there is always room to improve my forage variety and quality after or just before I move my pigs. 

In the spring you should be able to get away with planting most legumes, grasses (bluegrass, ryegrass, fescue and timothy) and brassicas (I particularly like dwarf Essex rape). In the summer you may be limited to forages that will establish well in the heat. In the early fall I'll plant brassicas and grasses. In the late fall I plant winter rye, and barley which will green up early in the spring.


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## gerold

JenniferLedlow said:


> We are fencing off 2 acres for our five Large Blacks and I'm wondering if it's big enough that they won't turn it all to mud? It's got a lot of good grass and clover. Also, what does everyone use for water? They are using a big tub now, but they like to dump it. We don't plan on keeping all four gilts unless they all turn out to be great moms.


Besides your regular pasture be nice if you had a couple acres fenced and divided into 3 areas to plant Milo,wheat and peas. Also i plant rape. The wheat comes up first and can be used when it gets about 8-10inches tall. Later the milo and peas can be used. This really cuts down on any feed bill.

300ft. from my well is where i water the hogs. I use the bottom of 55 gal. plastic barrels for the water. Installed inside the fence with two steel posts on sides to hold them in place. Also have some big rocks surrounding the water containers to help hold them in place. I have a stand build overhead to hold a 55 gal. barrel fill with water to drip down into pan below. The stand is just a square post install two feet in the ground and just outside the fence with a couple of 2x8 inch. boards nailed on top of the post and extending over the fence. A 55 gal. barrel sits on top of the boards which extends over the fence above the pan below.
I have under ground pipe running from my well out to the fence with a pipe running up to the top of the water barrel to keep it filled with water.


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## PasturedPork

Gerold
Those are great suggestions.

I really want to try rape someday.


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## gerold

PasturedPork said:


> Gerold
> Those are great suggestions.
> 
> I really want to try rape someday.


The seed is expensive but worth it. It grows fast and the pigs eat this plant like candy.


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## highlands

kaniacarpentry said:


> What would be the best things to plant in the paddocks after the pigs are moved?


You can graze the forages down quite low and some rooting is not a problem, it aerates the soil. I find that the tend to just flip the top layer and then it comes back stronger than before. The sorts of plants we want on our pastures handle this activity well but the weed species get killed off.

Ideally plant small seeded species of forages a day or two before the animals will leave an area. This way they trample the seed into the ground. The more animals in an area for a short time of this the better if seeding is the goal. If it is just before a rain storm so much the better. The rain beats the seed into the soil. This is mob and storm seeding.

We plant:
Soft grasses
Legmes - Alfalfa, Clovers, Trefoil...
Brassicas - Rape, Kale, Broccoli, Turnips...
Millets
Chicory
Plantain
Herbs

We do hand broadcasting of all the seed since our land is stumpy, stony and steep so it isn't good for tractor work. Thus we work with the mob, the storm and the frost for planting times.

Species selection, especially for the grasses, depends on your climate. Check with your local ag extension on what soft grasses grow well in your soils and area. Avoid the toxin producing grasses - ask them which. Some grasses produce toxins under drought or frost stress.


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## Gravytrain

gerold said:


> The seed is expensive but worth it. It grows fast and the pigs eat this plant like candy.


Gerold, around here D.E. rape is only $.80-$1.30/lb depending on where and when I get it. Like you said, it grows like a weed, is about 28% protein, the pigs (and cows) absolutely love it, and once established the pigs can't keep up with it and often reseeds itself.


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## PasturedPork

If you remove too much top growth via grazing the plant won't recover as quickly and you will ultimately lose forage yield.
Look at videos from extension agencies on rotational grazing cattle and apply those same principles to pigs.
Unless you are specifically looking to change the paddocks composition you are wasting money by reseeding.


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## PasturedPork

Gravytrain said:


> Gerold, around here D.E. rape is only $.80-$1.30/lb depending on where and when I get it. Like you said, it grows like a weed, is about 28% protein, the pigs (and cows) absolutely love it, and once established the pigs can't keep up with it and often reseeds itself.



Not to get off topic but how hard is it to establish?


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## Gravytrain

PasturedPork said:


> Not to get off topic but how hard is it to establish?


Very easy, PP. I broadcast and lightly rake if on a small area, or drag a 6x6x8 behind a tractor or ATV if on a larger plot. The key is to let it get about shin high which should take about 6-7 weeks. After that the pigs shouldn't be able to keep up with it under normal stocking conditions. Once cooler weather kicks in, the sugar content will rise and becomes higher energy with less protein.


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## FarmerDavid

Where do you get small quantities of these seeds? I can get just about everything through MFA, but its almost always a 50lb minimum. 

I've noticed biologic has a brassica mix probably get that next time I'm at bass pro.


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## Gravytrain

FarmerDavid said:


> Where do you get small quantities of these seeds? I can get just about everything through MFA, but its almost always a 50lb minimum.
> 
> I've noticed biologic has a brassica mix probably get that next time I'm at bass pro.


I can buy it by the lb. at my local farm co-op. Also, these guys are great to deal with and will ship. I don't know how reasonable their shipping prices are because they are near me and I've never needed shipping from them.

http://www.ernstseed.com/


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## DEKE01

highlands said:


> From the Feed thread a list of links about what to plant in pasture:
> 
> [---bunch of broken links--- see above]
> 
> Be sure to get a soil test so you know what you're starting with for your soil conditions.


Walter - good idea for the sticky, but none of these links are working for me. All come up page not found.


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## highlands

Oops. My error. Fixed.

-Walter


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## highlands

_Copied from another thread:_



Bondo said:


> Can you explain to me how [managed rotational grazing breaks the parasite life cycle]? I have always raised pigs on concrete so I am not familiar with this.


Like Pastured Pork said. The basic idea is to leave the parasites without hosts during their vulnerable stage and break the life cycle through managed rotational grazing.

The basics of managed rotational grazing are:
1) Have a bunch of paddocks - the minimum is 4, more is better, smaller is better.
2) Move livestock in to paddocks and let them graze.
3) Move livestock out after no more than two weeks, faster is better but they should be eating or beating down all the weeds. Ideally don't over graze the goal forages (soft grasses, legumes, chicory, brassicas, millet, etc - what ever you want regrowing)
4) Keep livestock out for at least 21 days (parasite life cycle) and preferably longer so the forages have time to regrow. Longer could be a whole year - seed with what you would like to come up in the future. We use mob, storm and frost seeding since we can't tractor work our land (steep, stony, stumpy, sandy soils)

This breaks parasite life cycles, prevents soil compactions, beats out weed species as they don't tend to compete well with the desirable species when dealing with grazers (the definition of weed in this case), encourages desired forages and maximizes the food for the livestock.

Other things that help with parasites are cold winters, copper in the soil, garlic in the feed (I've tested this with controls - very effective) and an acid pH to the digestive tract as can be caused by whey. I've read one report of fiber helping - pasture is pretty fibrous. For new incoming stock I would quarantine and double chemical deworm with Fenbendazole/Ivermec to get a clean start. I would also vaccinate at the same time.

Here is an example with photos of a very tiny 100'x100' managed rotational grazing system. We use this mostly for our weaner pigs to train them to the various fencing types and tame them. It is big enough to raise two or three pigs a year instead of hoards of weaners:

http://SugarMtnFarm.com/south-weaning-paddock/

Further reading material:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotational_grazing

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/li...53-pasturing-planting-rotational-grazing.html

http://www.sugarmtnfarm.com/?s=rotational grazing

http://sugarmtnfarm.com/worms-au-natural/

http://www.sugarmtnfarm.com/?s=frost seeding


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## Shoestringer

You mention acid pH in digestion. I add a little cider vinegar to the water (1/4 cup in a 3 gallon pail) for our pigs and sheep. They had no trouble adjusting to it and it seems to help. Many other benefits are enumerated in literature about it.


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## JenniferLedlow

Thank you all! I haven't been on in a while. We might try making it into smaller sections in the future. My husband is getting tired of my animal projects I think  
All four gilts are getting bigger. We have two months left before they are due. 

They are so fun to watch when they start running across the field with their big ears flopping! Lol.


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## highlands

I think I see a problem. Based on your photo the pasture is way too steep. I'm amazed pigs can cling to that sheer cliff. I thought only goats could do that. New breed perhaps?! 

Seriously though, looks like nice land. Keep em moving.

Cheers,

-Walter


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## JenniferLedlow

Ha! Pretty flat around here 

This gilt I didn't really want to buy, but had to to get the boar I wanted. Her back looks a little too straight and her back legs are a little wobbly still. She is a lot better than when I got her though. They were being fed only wheat grass and nothing else and had mange and lice. We got rid of the mange and lice and our plan was to butcher her after the babies were weaned, but she was bred two days after we got her (seller said she was pregnant already). I'm hoping she does ok birthing. She is from a litter of 5.... So I'm not expecting many from her.


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## hogstar

What would be the best size sub divisions for a two acre piece of ground? I understand smaller is better but just how small is too small?


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## highlands

This is going to depend on the size and number of pigs, the total pounds of pork. Seasonality can also effect the grazing patterns, paddock sizes and timing.

For managed rotational grazing:

You want to move the pigs out of a division before two weeks, sooner is better. The primary reason for this timing is to break parasite life cycles.

You also want to avoid compacting the soil and over grazing so that generally means moving faster than that.

You also don't want to come back to a paddock for at least 21 days to break the parasite life cycle and preferably longer. 

Waiting until the forages are back up to good growth is important so they have a rest between each grazing.

If a paddock is too large then it won't get grazed heavily enough and weed species will come to dominate. This is why some people will mow paddocks mechanically. You can also simply mob graze the paddock to knock down weed species.

You'll need to observe how fast the pigs eat which will be determined by their age, size, number and what supplementary feed they get as well as their personal commitment to grazing (learning).

The reason smaller is better is it gives you more control but that also means more work on your part of moving pigs from paddock to paddock. I find that having them on a paddock for three days to a week is a nice balance. Good gates helps a lot. Gates that are not electric helps even more.

So... back to your original question. I would probably divide the space up into ten paddocks if I had five to 20 pigs on it. For fewer pigs I would only use one acre each year, letting the other rest. Otherwise you'll get under grazing.

There are other considerations such as the soil, forage quality, root mass and such but that will give you something to start with. It is key to observe and adjust. Each situation is different. Pasture management is like driving, you make little corrections along the way instead of bouncing off the sidewalls like with bumper cars. 

Cheers,

-Walter


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## hogstar

Thanks Walter your always helpful


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## FarmerDavid

How do you manage shelter, shade, and water with rotational grazing? I'm envisioning a wagon wheel design with a shade, shelter, and water in an always accessable center area. Will the center section being available all the time encourage parasites? The water isn't as much of a concern, but the shade and shelters won't be easy to move.


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## highlands

Nothing fancy. During the warm seasons our pigs primarily sleep out on the pastures in the open or under brush through their own choice. We have open sheds that block the wind and have deep bedding packs which they use some in the winter although if the weather is nice they'll still sleep out under the sky, just favoring the wind shadows.

For waterers, we have half barrels buried in series down the mountain in several lines. Water feeds from the springs to the series in 1" water lines and then from barrel to barrel so the pigs have water within 1,000', preferably within 500'.

I have discovered that having a central area does _not_ lead to a build up of parasites. I had worried about this years ago but find with experience it isn't a problem. What you can do if you want is also shift the central area a bit. But I find it isn't such an issue. More of an aesthetics thing. They like having the wallow there.


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## FarmerDavid

I don't have anything fancy now, but I've found my shelters I made to be portable aren't very portable. Out here on the prarie we don't have alot of trees or natural shelter. I'm thinking the center would have a waller, shade, water, shelter, and probably a loading area. Probably a wagon wheel design, and then I like gerolds suggestion to put more forage crops around the perimeter. This is all still just in my mind but I'm finally getting cower to making it happen. Have the pasture planted and up so I'm gaining in it. 

There is ten acres one mile up the road that would be great for pigs. Lots of trees but fences are horrible and it'd take a year to get all the trash picked up to make it useable. Might be worth it if they come down but right now they are asking way to much for it.


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## Paul O

This is my first year grazing the pigs. Last year I hand fed them rape and forage turnips. That worked so now I&#8217;m planting about an acre for them to harvest on their own. Unfortunately the land is a lot wetter than I thought. We&#8217;ll see how it turns out but I was wondering about chufa for next year. It was mentioned in another topic. I don&#8217;t think I ever heard of it before. Will it grow in Northern New England? Is it a good forage crop?


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## highlands

If the land is wet then you'll want to rotate them very fast.

A trick for drying wet land is to create ditches. Long term.

I believe that we have the Chufa growing here if I've properly identified it so that would be yes.


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## Paul O

Walter,
I think ditching will help. I'll see what I can do later in the season.
Thanks,


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## DEKE01

You might want to look into permaculture degisn for ideas on your ditch works. Often, you don't want to lose that water from your property, but rather just direct it in a manner that best serves your needs. Here's a vid that explains the process in a fairly grand scheme. 

http://www.geofflawton.com/fe/64068-earthworks-course

Here's another one by the same guy and the ideas are scaled down to a much smaller budget and 5 acres. 

http://www.geofflawton.com/fe/46743-5-acre-abundance-on-a-budget

ETA - skip to 1:35 in each vid to get to where the info starts.


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## highlands

That is what we do. We terrace, swale, ditch and create small ponds to collect the water and nutrients. We've been doing this since the 1980's. A slow gradual process of improvement. It has made a big difference in turning our steep fast land into useable land for more than just forestry.


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## Paul O

I've downloaded the .pdf file. I'm not sure that at my age and limited resources I want to take on anything too grand but I'm sure I'll get some ideas from it.
Thanks


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## hogstar

Geoff there has a great idea but I can't see turning my little chunk of dirt into a man made wetland environment. His entire pdf file was basically turning his property into a "woody" wetland environment, there wasn't a single livestock pasture on the whole place. His plan is great if one were building a property for tree production only but the rest of us I don't think need a million + gallon pond built dead smack in the middle of our property. I like the principle of his idea but more pastures are needed and less water.


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## gerold

DEKE01 said:


> You might want to look into permaculture degisn for ideas on your ditch works. Often, you don't want to lose that water from your property, but rather just direct it in a manner that best serves your needs. Here's a vid that explains the process in a fairly grand scheme.
> 
> http://www.geofflawton.com/fe/64068-earthworks-course
> 
> Here's another one by the same guy and the ideas are scaled down to a much smaller budget and 5 acres.
> 
> http://www.geofflawton.com/fe/46743-5-acre-abundance-on-a-budget
> 
> ETA - skip to 1:35 in each vid to get to where the info starts.


Why do you have to register and give a email to view. I prefer not to do that.


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## highlands

Keep a throw away email on hand for such things you do not want to participate in. They can force collection of email addresses but they can not force you to give them your primary address. Standard Operating Procedure.


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## highlands

Hogstar, if you have sloped land that runs off you may find the terracing trick we use more effective. A lot of water falls from the sky. A lot ran off years ago, carrying with it nutrients. I noticed that where a log fell across the hill, where a stone wall was built with the contours, the dirt would pile up behind them forming small terraces. I fence with the contours as much as I can. Then hooves, wind, water and frost action pushes soil to the down hill fence creating a boundary, a swale, a bump that terraces over time and allows the water to soak in. Rather than having a big water supply our land is a sponge. The trick is to give it time to soak in.


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## gerold

highlands said:


> Keep a throw away email on hand for such things you do not want to participate in. They can force collection of email addresses but they can not force you to give them your primary address. Standard Operating Procedure.


I used to have a couple throw away emails but found it was not worth the trouble so discontinued that practice.


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## hogstar

My problem here is the soil is nothing but clay and nothing soaks in as in should or retain moisture as well as it should. It will take a long time before this old farm land becomes truly fertile again after having pines on it. Being that your in Vermont you have some really nice dirt in them hills highlands.


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## highlands

Real, nice gravel about 1" to 5" deep for the most part. The rest is bare ledge and rocks. It works for pasturing. I don't try and till the land. It is swiftly sloping and I don't cotton to rolling tractors down the mountain, sideways. Or end over end.  I like it here.


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## IloveHazel

Your pigs will have a blast! We pasture our pigs too. Ours get a week in each of our four paddocks. They have to be reseeded every time it rains.


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## disturbedinwv

http://www.learningstore.uwex.edu/assets/pdfs/A3529.pdf

I wasn't sure if I should add this to the sticky or not. Even though technically the only info I seem to find in this article about pigs is that they aren't very well suited for raising on pasture, which I'm paraphrasing. However, I think we can disagree with that. 

There is ton of good info in this article nonetheless. There is also formulas for how many animals per acre, life cycle of plants, as well as a bunch of other useful info in my opinion. 

I hope you guys enjoy. Feel free to move this to the appropriate thread, forum (because we all know pigs have to be raised in containment/feed lots:hammer, etc.


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## WadeFisher

I planted a lot of different forages for the pigs this year. I actually tilled the soil and broadcast the seeds in. Then incorporated them in with either a light roto-tilling or dragging a weight. I tried a dozen different types on about 7 acres. The neighbor farmers thought I was insane with my little fields. Some strips would be only 20' wide by 300' long.

The best thing by far that I found, _for me_, was tillage(forage) radish. These things grow so fast its unbelievable. The pigs loved the tops, which run 17-18% protein. The tuber they did not care for so much in the warmer months. Although this was a good thing. Take them off the field for a few weeks and they were 15" high again. The cows ate the tubers much more than the pigs.
The pigs liked the tops so much they will leave a trough you put a corn base feed in to forage radish tops before they finished all the ground feed.

My best pasturing this summer I had a field of 75% oats and 25% corn next to a strip of forage radish with some buckwheat. I fenced so the paddocks included some of each and for over 2 months this provided 75% of their diet. The oats were mature but the corn was not. It was amazing how they would work from the radish to the oats and corn then by evening be back in the radishes. 

They grazed everything down flat over 2 months (3 moves). We moved them off, lightly disc the oat field, spread some radish seed in it. In a little over 30 days I was grazing it again (Pigs and cows). The oats they dropped while foraging and the radish seed I spread came right back.

I have found that my pigs prefer the radish tops over turnip tops. The cows don't seem to care which one.


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## DEKE01

WadeFisher said:


> The pigs liked the tops so much they will leave a trough you put a corn base feed in to forage radish tops before they finished all the ground feed.


excellent info, very informative. But I don't understand the sentence above. Can you explain that one further please?


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## highlands

For radishes we use Daikon radishes. They grow great for us and drill deep bringing water and minerals to the surface. As you noted, the pigs tend to graze the tops and then in the fall they'll eat the tubers.

-Walter


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## njenner

I planted forage turnips and dwarf rape; it's not quite ready yet but those turnips sure to grow fast even in our "hot" fall weather we've had. We are just now "down" to the mid-80s and it's all still alive. It's a brand new pasture so it will be a bit before we put anyone on it other than our teency "Boris" the kunekune young boar. I let him loose and he gathers the acorns under our oak tree first - then nibbles a little on the turnip tops.


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## gerold

njenner said:


> I planted forage turnips and dwarf rape; it's not quite ready yet but those turnips sure to grow fast even in our "hot" fall weather we've had. We are just now "down" to the mid-80s and it's all still alive. It's a brand new pasture so it will be a bit before we put anyone on it other than our teency "Boris" the kunekune young boar. I let him loose and he gathers the acorns under our oak tree first - then nibbles a little on the turnip tops.


I plant rape every year. The pigs love it and it is high in protein.


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## highlands

There is a nifty little book "Garth Pig Stockmanship Standards" that is filled with charts on just this sort of thing. I have the paper copy but it is also online at:

http://www.thepigsite.com/stockstds/...ship-standards

Lots of good info for this topic.


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## KFhunter

Here is my starter


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## WadeFisher

> Originally Posted by WadeFisher View Post
> The pigs liked the tops so much they will leave a trough you put a corn base feed in to forage radish tops before they finished all the ground feed.





DEKE01 said:


> excellent info, very informative. But I don't understand the sentence above. Can you explain that one further please?


DEKE01,
I still throw some ground feed out once a day. Corn is 'candy' to almost any porcine. My comparison was that they will come to me at feeding time and eat the ground feed, mostly. But they enjoy the radish so much it was 'just as' pleasing to them. That was the shoats more so than the sows.

Last year I was raising strait Yorkshires and I could hardly get them to graze a turnip/rape pasture I planted for them. Let alone to leave a corn based feed lay in the trough.
My Old Spots are by far more adapt at grazing.


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## WadeFisher

Here are some pictures of some shoats foraging the wooded side of the pasture for acorns.
They have access to planted radish, sugar beats, chicory and young barley.
They also have full access to unlimited 'creep' feed. Yet I see them at the feeder only a couple times a day. They spend most of the time bouncing between the pasture items.


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## WadeFisher

End of July I planted a field of Daikon radish and forage oats with a sprinkle of Dwarf Essex rape.

Here is the field after I ran cows on it for a week. Then left is rest a week.
This picture was mid September. 








You can see on the right side is a fence and what the field looked like before the cows were in it.

Paddocks are made and move in some porcine. The starting paddocks are 35' x 150' (approximately)








The tires are for back-rubs. There are no trees in this pasture.
I'm raising registered breeding stock so it takes a few extra paddocks to keep breeding groups separate.


October 25 you can now see on the right side the cows were given the large paddock a couple weeks back. The pigs are still in the paddocks from previous photo back in mid September. But it is time to open up the back portions to give them fresh forage.








I've concluded that the pigs and the cows like the forage oats as much or more than the radish. And it grows just as well. Its a great mix.

This is a closer view of the pig paddock that had the most pressure of the 3 pig paddocks after 35+ days. The radish, even with constant grazing pressure, keep growing more leaves. There was 1 Boar 1 Sow the whole time and a 2nd sow for last 2 weeks in this paddock. They received < 3 lb/head whole corn daily as additional feed supplement. 









Closer view of what the cows did in 14 days.








The cows will be returned in early November to trample in the winter wheat seeding and eat up more tubers.


10/26 Taking down the rear fence line to allow pigs the back 1/2 of the paddock.








I most definitely could have had more animals on this field. And I am amazed at the tonnage of green matter it has provided in a short amount of time. The protein value of the forage oats changes with the stage of development but it is generally less then the radish. Overall the mix of the two does well for me running a mixed herd. The pigs have been slow to eat the tubers but they are starting to sweeten up now so I will see if that changes.


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## WadeFisher

I have a slow motion rotational grazing. I am not in the position to move them daily or weekly at this time. And in the case above, I didn't move them I opened up more space for them.


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## highlands

Good pictures. The diakon radish is one of the things we use. Like with broccoli, beets, mangels, sugar beets, turnips, rape and kale we find the pigs eat the leaves but leave the tubers growing for the most part during the warmer months and then will eat the tubers in the fall if nothing else is better. This happens as pastures wane. With our deep early snows the tubers winter over and sprout early the next spring providing an early forage.

-Walter


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## njenner

great pics! I just ordered a bunch of daikon radish, Siberian kale, winter peas and chicory seeds that I'll scatter as soon as they come. We don't get any snow here and they will grow all winter. My forage bar selection keeps growing as I find new things to add to the mix. Fun!!


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## KFhunter

mine won't touch the kale


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## njenner

That's interesting because mine go for the kale first!


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## redrockgsd

Wow. I am learning so much here


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## KFhunter

njenner said:


> That's interesting because mine go for the kale first!


Maybe my kale was too mature or something, I had some Russian kale in the garden that managed to keep growing all summer long, the LBH sow wouldn't touch it for nothing. 



...but I'm happy they're putting away the oat hay good :thumb: 

means I don't need to feed much hog feed. I toss a bale of oat hay in and they eat on it for a few days and mulch the rest. You'd almost think it was a horse paddock by the look of the poop on the ground.


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## njenner

our Kunekune boar got into "our" garden by mistake; started taking out the tops of rutabaga like crazy! Really? We had to herd him back to his digs before he took the whole row out! I've never grown rutabaga before and I don't know if WE like it. If we don't like it we know who will - the never ending possibilities never stop cracking me up!!!!


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## KFhunter

interesting turnip developed for deer hunters specifically for winter foraging. 

A turnip that grows mostly exposed so deer can get at them easy even in the snow. 

http://www.whitetailinstitute.com/tall-tine-tubers-annual/

I don't know if it's a GMO product specifically, it does say genetically developed but does that = genetically modified?

Anyways I bet the hogs would get at them, what other winter crops do you all plant for hog forage? The ground freezes rock hard.

The stuff is expensive though.


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## highlands

The genetically developed is just marketing to catch your eye and make you think it is special. It does not mean GMO nor does it mean they did anything. Looking at the pictures it just looks like a traditional purple top turnip. They grow above the ground. Pigs and deer first eat the foliage. As fall progresses they eat the tubers. We grow turnips in our pastures. Good feed.

Buying the seed in mixes is an expensive way. I buy the individual seed types per what I need and then hand mix. Much cheaper and it gives me control. Yes, I'm a control freak. 

-Walter


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## WadeFisher

highlands said:


> The genetically developed is just marketing to catch your eye and make you think it is special. It does not mean GMO nor does it mean they did anything. Looking at the pictures it just looks like a traditional purple top turnip. They grow above the ground. Pigs and deer first eat the foliage. As fall progresses they eat the tubers. We grow turnips in our pastures. Good feed.
> 
> Buying the seed in mixes is an expensive way. I buy the individual seed types per what I need and then hand mix. Much cheaper and it gives me control. Yes, I'm a control freak.
> 
> -Walter


I have found the same highlands. First it is cheaper in the long run to buy and mix and it does give you more control over what you plant where and when.

BTW 
when planting forage it is sometimes much cheaper to buy grain out of the bin versus actual seed. I can get bin oats or barley for $3 to $4 a bushel. That is nearly 50lb of seed. Even corn seed if you have someone that is not growing proprietorial crops.
I had a field of 3-4 acres in a _mix_ of oats and corn and the seed cost was < $25
I had purchased barley to grind into feed from a local farmer who told me he uses his own seed and that I could plant it in my forage mixes. So we pulled 200lb out and put in a 55 gallon drum and I used it in many of my mixes this past late summer/fall. Barley was < $3 bu. 1 bu is around 48lb 

Take this into consideration along with bought commercial seeds and my mixes are quite affordable. Also, I have friends in the seed business and the difference between bin barley and seed barley is for the most part, the cleaning. But it cost %400 more as seed.

Now the 'bin' version are not cleaned so you get some debris and sometimes other seeds. In the example above of Oats and Corn I had the occasional soybean and sorghum plant growing. Not that this can hurt much.


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## FarmerIvan

Hey Walter, to start a good pasture for pigs to feed on what would I have to do first? I have about 2 1/2 acres of trees/rocks that I would like to pasture raise breeder pigs. In order to plant pasture seeds what would I need to do once spring comes? Could I raise my pigs at a young age on the pasture and seed once I rotate em or would it be best to start once spring arrives? Also, I have a 2 feeder pigs right now, could I use them to till up and rotate throughout the pasture that'll use for next years pigs to get a head start?


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## highlands

I would start by thinning the trees to the point where you'll have enough sunlight reaching the ground. Doesn't need to be 100% clear cut. Leaving some patches of trees is good for shade and shelter. We cut the stumps close to the ground and leave them in the soil - half the trees mass is thus left to decay improving the soil. Any regen from them is good forage for most species of trees - not cherry, etc.

Then I would frost seed with:
soft grasses (bluegrass, rye, timothy, wheat, etc);
legumes (alfalfa, clovers, trefoil,vetch, ect);
brassicas (kale, broccoli, turnips, etc);
millets;
amaranth;
chicory; and
other forages and herbs.
Exactly what varieties will depend on your local climate and soils. I avoid the grasses and such that turn toxic with drought, frost or other stress as they make our management system too complex.
I prefer perennials or things that self-reseed. Some things labeled as annuals are actually perennials in our climate because we get early snows that protect their roots over the winter - e.g., kale, broccoli, etc.

Seed companies we buy from: Johnny's, Hancock, High Mow, Bakers and a couple of others I'm not thinking of at the moment.

Getting good seed to soil contact helps with germination which is why the frost seeding. If you can drag it or mob it that helps. Otherwise just spread extra seed to make up for that.

I don't tend to remove the rocks, other than to make walls, as they grow back so easily... 

It takes a lot of pigs to do a good mob grazing. >10/acre. I would setup a good strong perimeter fence and then start subdividing into many small paddocks. Do one paddock and then add more as you have time and money. Just keep splitting. Too large an area is more of a problem than many small areas.

The other thing we do is line trees in double fences of fruit like this:

http://www.sugarmtnfarm.com/?s=double fences

-Walter


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## krackin

My standby is winter rye and hairy vetch. These are extremely hardy and will reseed, hairy vetch more than winter rye in my experience. They over seed pretty well in areas where they will get some cover from existing vegetation. 

Deer will be attracted to these and that must be considered, especially at ice out, big time. It maybe a problem to some agriculture or it my give enough alternate feed source to reduce problems.


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## highlands

Deer?
Dogs.


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## krackin

Deer. Beautiful and so destructive. 

My Akitas never cared about deer much. They stand to attention when they see the deer but interest fades quickly. I think they learned early that I would deal with them. Now bears, coyotes, skunks and hedgehogs are quite interesting.


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## Skandi

Right so I want 2-3 pigs next year, and have 1 acre avaliable to pasture them on all year and another acre that is usable in the summer only (too wet in winter)

The pasture is seriously overgrown, grass, thistles, rosebay (fireweed), willow sapplings (1-2 years nothing big) What is the best thing to do with this, it cannot be ploughed neither can it be weedkilled. I was wondering what to add to it/do to it, to improve the food value. 

Climate. frost free from May to Septmeber. we spend 2 months just under freezing, and rarely have snow for more than a couple of days. 6 hours of daylight in Nov,Dec,Jan so nothing much grows. Drought is a non issue, excess water much more of one!

Soil, clay with chalk, LOTS of chalk 

The pigs.. Most likely to be "dansk sortbroget landrace" or a mix thereof (although I just saw three potbellies 3year old mum and 2 2year old girls for $13 each lols) That breed is a hardy old breed, able to liveo utside all year in our climate with a 100lb or thereabouts slaughter weight. I'm only after feeders so there would be nothing on the field/s from october through to march or so.

Right now there's no fencing at all, so I can put whatever would suit the pigs best in, there is a mains electric fence hookup avaliable. There's also no water, so would have to figure something about that too, there's a stream/spring at the bottom of the field, but that's not going to help the rest of it!


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## highlands

I would setup a strong perimeter fence and then start dividing it up into paddocks for managed rotational grazing using polywire and step in posts at the least, 12g high tensile if you've got the money. That's enough land to raise a lot of pigs. Divide the whole area into four quadrants. Each quadrant gets used as a grazing system one year, then winter paddock, then high plant garden, then low plant garden, then back to grazing or something like that. We do this but on a much larger scale. It gradually improves our poor mountain soil and provides about 90% of our pig's feed along with food for our hens, ducks and geese and ourselves. Here's an example of a mini system:

http://sugarmtnfarm.com/2013/09/25/south-weaning-paddock/

-Walter


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## DEKE01

I'm involuntarily raising pigs on native, un-managed pasture and believe me, they reproduce like pigs. I've seen 2 sows in the middle of 20 - 25 piglets. My neighbors are shooting about 25 a year and we are not seeing a decline in the herd unfortunately. These are feral pigs, not too far removed from farm life because some of them are spotted white, some are red, many have the higher, rounder hams of farm pigs, but some look typical all black wild boar. Pasture on my farm means they eat lots of acorns, persimmons, plums, grape, maypops (I think), Bahia grass and roots, plus over the last 2 years a few things I plant for the deer like turnip, rye, rape, soy, and cowpeas. And of course whatever they are finding in the swamp next to the farm. 

They are good eating, but very lean, no boar taint that we've found. I can't speak to growth rate because I don't see the same pigs often enough. 

Wild pigs are a problem in just about every state. No one is feeding those hogs a trough full of corn and soy twice a day. I don't understand why you think pasture, as I've seen Highlands describe, is such a foreign concept. 

I follow Highlands postings quite a bit and don't recall him ever saying exclusively grass fed, in fact he goes out of his way to frequently describe pasture as including fallen apples, planted brassicas, and various other forages. He also makes a big deal about whey, eggs, and other feeds. So I'm not sure what your issue is with his system or his claims. It sounds like he does a pretty good job marketing his product since his family makes a living off those pigs, but I doubt his Vermont marketing has made such serious inroads into Washington state that you can't make a living off of pork, raising it in what ever manner you choose. I'm wondering what your real agenda is.


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## dlskidmore

The nuts are likely key for the wild pigs. There are older finishing systems based on acorns and chestnuts, supposed to be gourmet pork.


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## gerold

DEKE01 said:


> Bruce, I'm involuntarily raising pigs on native, un-managed pasture and believe me, they reproduce like pigs. I've seen 2 sows in the middle of 20 - 25 piglets. My neighbors are shooting about 25 a year and we are not seeing a decline in the herd unfortunately. These are feral pigs, not too far removed from farm life because some of them are spotted white, some are red, many have the higher, rounder hams of farm pigs, but some look typical all black wild boar. Pasture on my farm means they eat lots of acorns, persimmons, plums, grape, maypops (I think), Bahia grass and roots, plus over the last 2 years a few things I plant for the deer like turnip, rye, rape, soy, and cowpeas. And of course whatever they are finding in the swamp next to the farm.
> 
> They are good eating, but very lean, no boar taint that we've found. I can't speak to growth rate because I don't see the same pigs often enough.
> 
> I'll PM you my address and you can send me that $10K. :thumb: Wild pigs are a problem in just about every state. No one is feeding those hogs a trough full of corn and soy twice a day. I don't understand why you think pasture, as I've seen Highlands describe, is such a foreign concept.
> 
> I follow Highlands postings quite a bit and don't recall him ever saying exclusively grass fed, in fact he goes out of his way to frequently describe pasture as including fallen apples, planted brassicas, and various other forages. He also makes a big deal about whey, eggs, and other feeds. So I'm not sure what your issue is with his system or his claims. It sounds like he does a pretty good job marketing his product since his family makes a living off those pigs, but I doubt his Vermont marketing has made such serious inroads into Washington state that you can't make a living off of pork, raising it in what ever manner you choose. I'm wondering what your real agenda is.


What you are talking about is not pasture pigs.


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## njenner

I raised my hog last year with absolutely NO grain or commercial hog feed. She weighed about 215 at slaughter and is the best pork I've ever had. We fed lots of garden veges that we grew ourselves, including lots of butternut squash, and alfalfa hay free choice. She grazed on a mixed forage with a couple of steers, goat and another gilt. We also gleaned fruit and pumpkins. Maybe 3 times during the 11 month grow out she got a few hard boiled eggs. I consider this pasturing because my pigs don't get grain or commercial hog feed. The fact that it took 11 months to get to butcher size is the difference. That said, raising pigs this way commands a premium price that I find people willing to pay for.


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## gerold

njenner said:


> I raised my hog last year with absolutely NO grain or commercial hog feed. She weighed about 215 at slaughter and is the best pork I've ever had. We fed lots of garden veges that we grew ourselves, including lots of butternut squash, and alfalfa hay free choice. She grazed on a mixed forage with a couple of steers, goat and another gilt. We also gleaned fruit and pumpkins. Maybe 3 times during the 11 month grow out she got a few hard boiled eggs. I consider this pasturing because my pigs don't get grain or commercial hog feed. The fact that it took 11 months to get to butcher size is the difference. That said, raising pigs this way commands a premium price that I find people willing to pay for.


http://thekuhnfamily.tripod.com/our-pastured-pigs.html

I got a lot of info. on raising pasture pigs from the above link. 

I do feed a little grain mostly what i raise myself. In winter they love to eat a lot of hay. In summer and winter they are on pasture. However they do have a lot of acorn and nuts they feed on in the winter in the woods. My pigs do get fat and weight around 400 lbs. plus at 12 mos.


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## njenner

My gilt is 1/2 American guinea hog so I don't think she'll pass 300 pounds at full maturity. That probably slows the growth weight too, but I'm okay with that since I prefer smaller than hippo size!


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## DEKE01

gerold said:


> What you are talking about is not pasture pigs.


OK, but it is close. Can I have $5000? :nanner:


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## gerold

DEKE01 said:


> OK, but it is close. Can I have $5000? :nanner:


Would you take a pig instead.


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## bruceki

There's been talk for years about how you can raise pigs on pasture alone. The trouble with this theory is that no one is doing that right now on a commercial basis, and certainly not with production that would suit your typical retail market. 

Even people who have claimed to do this in the past are now producing pigs with feedings of food waste -- in one case the fellow is feeding thousands of pounds of butter, cheese, cottage cheese, sour cream and other dairy waste, and in addition to these solids is providing thousands of gallons of whey, a byproduct of cheese production, and bread and other items as they become avaiable to him. Funny, that's exactly what I do, too. and in fact, it's what most small pig farmers do. 

Yes, he may keep his pigs outdoors, but if you look at the calories that the pigs use to put weight on, I think you'll agree that butter is a lot better than meagre greens. 

Pigs can grow and thrive without supplemental feeding; as pointed out here that happens all the time in the south; texas, alabama, lousiana, florida... basically any warmer weather state. Each feral pig is usually roaming an area measured in acres per pig - 5 acres per pig, 10, 20, whatever. This sort of growth doesn't happen in the mountains of new york, or maine, or any other mountanous eastern state and it certainly doesn't happen on very thin, rocky soil. you have to have some soil to grow the crops to get the best fodder for any animal, pigs included. It usually happens in areas where there are farms growing nutrious crops on good soil, or with fertilizer or irrigation or both, with traditional or no-till tillage -- you can absolutely plant crops which will provide enough nutrition for a pig to thrive on. But the claim isn't that you can plant crops and feed your own pig -- the claim is that you can put standard farm pigs on meagre soil at a stocking rate between 10 and 20 pigs an acre and have them reach slaughter weight in 6 to 8 months - maybe throw them 10lbs of dry hay a week. I don't think it's possible. 

Specifically I don't think that it's possible to grow pigs to commercial weight on mountain pastures in the timeframe that most farmers would consider acceptable, or with carcass characteristics that would suit most american consumers. 

The American guinea Hog (AGH) and KuneKune can fatten quite well with minimal extra feed, but that's not what we are talking about here - we're talking standard size farm pigs and standard slaughter weights and standard growout times. 

If you think you can grow pigs under the conditions that have been promoted, PM me. Look, if we can come up with a way to grow pigs without supplmental feed we'll all be rich. Think of the billions of pounds of feed that are being used now to grow pigs.


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## DEKE01

gerold said:


> Would you take a pig instead.


HAPPILY!!! :dance:

My DW would prefer a GOS to match the little guy in the photo. I'll let the mailman know to expect a large, angry, and hungry package in the next few days.


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## gerold

gerold said:


> Would you take a pig instead.


My Old Spot piglets look like Hereford pigs. They are Red with white feet and have tiny black spots on them. 
Mother Sow is white/black spots. Boar Red/white face and feet.
Got 5 now. 4 piglets were sold for $200 ea.


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## njenner

my kunekune is black/white spots; but he doesn't bark.


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## Mid-MO

Have any of you had experience with grazing Triticale? I noticed a couple pages back that it was discussed as part of a feed but didn't see anything on grazing it. I came across two articles in the past that stated that it wasn't very palatable and the hogs wouldn't touch it (I can't find the bookmark to either article at the moment) so I was wondering if anyone has experience with it, good or bad. The nutrient profile seems great.


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## gerold

Mid-MO said:


> Have any of you had experience with grazing Triticale? I noticed a couple pages back that it was discussed as part of a feed but didn't see anything on grazing it. I came across two articles in the past that stated that it wasn't very palatable and the hogs wouldn't touch it (I can't find the bookmark to either article at the moment) so I was wondering if anyone has experience with it, good or bad. The nutrient profile seems great.


I planted Triticale last year in a couple places with different seed. Some with Oats and some mix with grasses. 

The pigs didn't touch the Triticale that i could tell. I just plowed it under and will replant with other things in that area in the spring.


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## highlands

I've never tried the Triticale although we have something growing in some of our fields that looks like it. I thought it was wheat. Not a large amount - in a patch. The pigs like it fine. Pigs will walk along munching seed heads of lots of different things. Some of that seed passes through them and gets planted, some of it they digest. This is natures way of sowing seeds. Most of what our pigs eat is pasture. See this link for details and follow the feed links for details:

http://SugarMtnFarm.com/pigs

Managed rotational grazing is key. Good pasture is important and pasture is not lawn. Good pig genetics makes a world of difference. Where one person fails with confinement style grain fed hog genetics another person can succeed with quality pastured pig genetics on the same pastures. This is why it's a good idea to get livestock from someone who is raising them the way you want to raise them so you'll get a leg up on the genetics. That's a big part of the origin of the whole idea behind breeding registries. It's a system. There are many ways to succeed. Even more ways to fail. 

-Walter


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## krackin

Mid-MO said:


> Have any of you had experience with grazing Triticale? I noticed a couple pages back that it was discussed as part of a feed but didn't see anything on grazing it. I came across two articles in the past that stated that it wasn't very palatable and the hogs wouldn't touch it (I can't find the bookmark to either article at the moment) so I was wondering if anyone has experience with it, good or bad. The nutrient profile seems great.


I'd like to suggest winter rye. It is a better and hardier nutrient scavenger and is quite palatable in my grazing experience. I have found that pigs also like it. Rye gives you a grazing grass, the seed heads and also reseeds very easily. It is an annual and is easy to eliminate or at least control if you want to plant a former feed area.


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## Gravytrain

krackin said:


> I'd like to suggest winter rye. It is a better and hardier nutrient scavenger and is quite palatable in my grazing experience. I have found that pigs also like it. Rye gives you a grazing grass, the seed heads and also reseeds very easily. It is an annual and is easy to eliminate or at least control if you want to plant a former feed area.


I couldn't agree more. Plant winter rye in mid to late fall, then brassicas and legumes in spring. This allows me to graze from late April to November/December up here.


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## bruceki

Study published yesterday on pastured hogs. over 100 farms contacted, and covers a variety of different operations. It's about 60 pages long, I'll cut to the chase: 

*The best pastures out there, planted with species that provide palatable and attractive forage for pigs, provide about 25% of the total calorie needs during the growing season...at best. Poor pastures with thin soil or short growing seasons provide less nutrition. * 

The study also cites the problem that many pastured pork producers face; the perception by the customer that their pigs are solely or mostly grass or pasture fed. this study points out that mono-gastric (single stomach) animals, like pigs, cannot get their required nutrition from most pastures, certainly not at 5 to 10 pigs an acre. 

This study coincides with my own experience (and probably with the experience of every other farmer here) that if you're growing pigs outdoors you're feeding them something else in addition to the plants/forage they get, particularly if your stocking at numbers I've seen mentioned here - 5 to 10 pigs an acre. 

you'll find the study linked here


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## DEKE01

bruceki said:


> Study published yesterday on pastured hogs. over 100 farms contacted, and covers a variety of different operations. It's about 60 pages long, I'll cut to the chase:
> 
> *The best pastures out there, planted with species that provide palatable and attractive forage for pigs, provide about 25% of the total calorie needs during the growing season...at best. Poor pastures with thin soil or short growing seasons provide less nutrition. *
> 
> The study also cites the problem that many pastured pork producers face; the perception by the customer that their pigs are solely or mostly grass or pasture fed. this study points out that mono-gastric (single stomach) animals, like pigs, cannot get their required nutrition from most pastures, certainly not at 5 to 10 pigs an acre.
> 
> This study coincides with my own experience (and probably with the experience of every other farmer here) that if you're growing pigs outdoors you're feeding them something else in addition to the plants/forage they get, particularly if your stocking at numbers I've seen mentioned here - 5 to 10 pigs an acre.
> 
> you'll find the study linked here


Wow - just wow. Do you seriously think that "study" is science that proves pigs can't be raised on pasture? I didn't read every word of it, but where I did see the 25% number, it was citing a Storey publication, with no science to back up the number or explanation of how it was determined. I also didn't see anything about stocking density per acre. 

I read fast. The paper is about some of the issues and challenges faced by the small scale pastured pork producer. I skipped sections on marketing, difficulty finding USDA butchers, and such that I didn't think were relevant to proving your bolded words. Did I miss something or are you just spinning one sentence in a 60 page doc to justify your bias? 

This paper is not science but more of a journalistic reporting on TWENTY pork producers. I read lots of scientific reports published by universities of Florida, Ohio State, Oregon, Arkansas and they look nothing like what you have linked. Real science shows the results of measured, detailed, audited experiments. 

There was one UF paper I found particularly valuable that was the result of numerous experiments. They took swine and bovine and did a comparison of growth rates on a standard feedlot corn/soy/supplement ration and then compared it to other diets where experiments had shown what percentage of the conventional diet could be replaced with alternative feeds and still maintain similar growth rates and nutrition. Because it was Florida, they compared citrus pulp, peanuts, and other feeds. As I recall, they found citrus pulp could replace 60 - 80% of the corn/soy. If you could produce science such as that, you would be able to show facts and not opinions about how much caloric intake pastures can replace for swine.


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## dlskidmore

Obviously 100% pastured pigs is possible, or else pigs would not have survived long enough to be domesticated and wild pigs would go extinct. What is in that viable pig pasture and how much pasture per pig is the question. Pastures would have to be designed with pig needs in mind, planted with mast producing trees, legumes, berries, places for rodents and insects to nest, places for mushrooms to grow, etc...


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## dlskidmore

I think they could expand a lot more on this resource, but it's somewhat interesting: http://www.mast-producing-trees.org.../farming-and-homesteading/mast-and-livestock/


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## gerold

bruceki said:


> Study published yesterday on pastured hogs. over 100 farms contacted, and covers a variety of different operations. It's about 60 pages long, I'll cut to the chase:
> 
> *The best pastures out there, planted with species that provide palatable and attractive forage for pigs, provide about 25% of the total calorie needs during the growing season...at best. Poor pastures with thin soil or short growing seasons provide less nutrition. *
> 
> The study also cites the problem that many pastured pork producers face; the perception by the customer that their pigs are solely or mostly grass or pasture fed. this study points out that mono-gastric (single stomach) animals, like pigs, cannot get their required nutrition from most pastures, certainly not at 5 to 10 pigs an acre.
> 
> This study coincides with my own experience (and probably with the experience of every other farmer here) that if you're growing pigs outdoors you're feeding them something else in addition to the plants/forage they get, particularly if your stocking at numbers I've seen mentioned here - 5 to 10 pigs an acre.
> 
> you'll find the study linked here


I did read the whole report. One can gain a little from the report. However it is far from correct on most of the items in the report. 20 farmers did help with the report but how many of them know what real pasture on good land is like? Over 100 farmers contacted but only 20 helped a little bit on this report. 

Not to discredit the lady making the report but sitting at a desk and copying what 20 farmers say about this type of farming is a bit questionable. Not one mention of how the pasture pork taste compared to factory raised pigs. This report really has its problems.


----------



## DEKE01

The report spends a lot of time saying that there is no consensus or legal definition of what pastured pork means. As my personal bias is always against more gov't, I'm not keen on yet more bureaucrats creating and enforcing regs the way "organic" or "free range" has been done. However, if the gov't did so, it might make part of this debate moot. 

It seems to me that Bruceki doesn't like the term pastured pork if people are using it to imply 100% grass fed as if pig = beef. I can understand that. I think all of us agree that swine are omnivores and need a more diverse diet to grow healthy and at acceptable rates and that we all might define pastured in various ways and degress. In my mind, pastured pork means more of a style and system of raising pigs including a diverse diet, exercise, pig choice in farrowing, etc. Though I understand others might say pastured pork could include farrowing crates and then a transfer to open pasture. With no official definition of pastured pork, we can all be right and wrong or a little bit of each.

Salatin would say pasturing is in terms of allowing the pigs to express their pig-ness, It's opposite would be confinement and a near 100% corn/soy/supplement diet.


----------



## Gravytrain

:facepalm: Study? It's a master's thesis for crying out loud. Do you know what a master's thesis is? In this case, it's a term paper written as a partial degree requirement for a student in the food studies dept.. 

And Deeke is right. No citation is given for the percentage of diet derived from pasture except from a generic "how-to" guide to raising livestock book. I can cite several books written at the turn of the last century that explains how to raise pigs on pasture alone. Is this a respected study because it agrees with your postulation? And since when does pasture equate to grass? My hog pastures are mostly brassicas and legumes. Heck, my cattle pastures are only about 50% grass.

I raise pigs on pasture. I only grain for about a week at weaning. I do supplement my pigs, especially in the winter, with dairy and bread as well as quality hay. Interestingly, my average gain in the spring, summer and fall is about 50% higher than the total supplement ration during those months. That indicates that even if the caloric absorption and conversion of the supplements is 100% (not even close, realistically more like 20%), then at least one third is acquired elsewhere...where would that be from?

I could do an experiment and separate and grow some hogs away from my other hogs and raise them without the benefit of the free dairy and bread that I have at my disposal. Would they grow as fast? Nope. Would they grow only 20% as fast as those that have the benefit of free supplement? Hardly. By your reasoning, if it takes 8 months for me to reach the 300-350# minimum that my customers are accustomed, it will take 40 months on pasture/hay alone to reach the same weight.

Additionally, to me, pasture is much more than a food source. It is fresh air, sunshine, exercise, and the ability for a hog to be a hog. While I support a farmer's right to raise pigs tail deep in their own filth inside a hog house, I prefer a different way. I'm not sure why people feel threatened by that.


----------



## gerold

DEKE01 said:


> The report spends a lot of time saying that there is no consensus or legal definition of what pastured pork means. As my personal bias is always against more gov't, I'm not keen on yet more bureaucrats creating and enforcing regs the way "organic" or "free range" has been done. However, if the gov't did so, it might make part of this debate moot.
> 
> It seems to me that Bruceki doesn't like the term pastured pork if people are using it to imply 100% grass fed as if pig = beef. I can understand that. I think all of us agree that swine are omnivores and need a more diverse diet to grow healthy and at acceptable rates and that we all might define pastured in various ways and degress. In my mind, pastured pork means more of a style and system of raising pigs including a diverse diet, exercise, pig choice in farrowing, etc. Though I understand others might say pastured pork could include farrowing crates and then a transfer to open pasture. With no official definition of pastured pork, we can all be right and wrong or a little bit of each.
> 
> Salatin would say pasturing is in terms of allowing the pigs to express their pig-ness, It's opposite would be confinement and a near 100% corn/soy/supplement diet.


Yes i did get the impress that the reporter placed to much important for the government to get more into the reg. of the farmers growing pasture pork. This is what i am trying to avoid. Keeping government out of my business. When growing up most farmers knew what pasture pork was and the best way to manage it. When young our feeder pigs lived mostly in the woods and followed the acorn crop up to the time they were shipped. We did feed them a little whole corn in the woods to keep track of them. That made for good taste and solid but health fat porkers. 

As for as our own butcher hogs. We penned them up after they were about 200 pounds and let them eat all the whole corn they could consume till weigh was 400-600 lbs. Best pork in the world.  Best meat we ever had was a 1000 lb. duroc boar.


----------



## dlskidmore

Gravytrain said:


> I can cite several books written at the turn of the last century that explains how to raise pigs on pasture alone.


Could you list some?


----------



## Shore Farming

Anyone like Morrison Feeds and Feeding? c. 1948


----------



## dlskidmore

Shore Farming said:


> Anyone like Morrison Feeds and Feeding? c. 1948


By the way you can get that e-book for free: https://books.google.com/books?id=SVgaAAAAIAAJ


----------



## Gravytrain

dlskidmore said:


> Could you list some?


"Hogs" by A.J. Lovejoy 1919

"Success with Hogs" by Charles Dawson 1919

Dawson discusses finishing on pasture alone, but also gives options of grain feeding or "hogging down" on grain crop residues.


----------



## highlands

DEKE01 said:


> pastured pork means more of a style and system of raising pigs including a diverse diet, exercise, pig choice in farrowing, etc.


You've hit the nail on the head. Pasture is not about feeding pigs _only_ grass and pastures are not _just_ grass. Occasionally someone will fixate on that and make a claim that a pig can't be claimed to be pastured if it ate anything other than grass. The reality, as you so nicely put it, is that pastured pigs is about a lot more than just grass. There are many ways to skin a cat and likewise, many ways to pasture a pig. The best thing for consumers to do is know their farmer.

Keep on pasturing!

-Walter


----------



## dlskidmore

Gravytrain said:


> "Hogs" by A.J. Lovejoy 1919
> 
> "Success with Hogs" by Charles Dawson 1919


Added links to free e-books.


----------



## dlskidmore

highlands said:


> The best thing for consumers to do is know their farmer.


I'm constantly inviting my customers to come inspect the farm, very few actually do.


----------



## davidle

highlands said:


> You've hit the nail on the head. Pasture is not about feeding pigs _only_ grass and pastures are not _just_ grass. Occasionally someone will fixate on that and make a claim that a pig can't be claimed to be pastured if it ate anything other than grass. The reality, as you so nicely put it, is that pastured pigs is about a lot more than just grass. There are many ways to skin a cat and likewise, many ways to pasture a pig. The best thing for consumers to do is know their farmer.
> 
> Keep on pasturing!
> 
> -Walter


walter, you raise pigs on hay alone during at least half the year, per your blog. if you fed just that hay would your pigs gain weight or would they lose weight


----------



## highlands

No, {referencing now deleted post above} not on hay alone. See http://SugarMtnFarm.com/pigs and follow the feed links. Hay alone is low in calories and lysine. I have raised pigs on _just_ pasture. But they take longer to get to market weight and are leaner. See the article at the link above for details.

-Walter


----------



## njenner

Interesting that my pigs will barely eat raw cabbages I have grown for them; beets are a whole different deal; they devour them like candy; I grew two good sized patches and have pulled a bunch and it looks like a bloody mess when they are chomping and red beet juice is flying! I have about 15-20 heads of cabbage left so I'm going to steam several at a time cause they eat them cooked. My chickens are laying 2-3 eggs a day now so they are going to get a couple of hard boiled eggs now too. Hoping that my gilt is pregnant, I want to feed her well!


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## dlskidmore

I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but the Livestock Conservancy recommends some books/pamphlets on swine pasture:

http://www.livestockconservancy.org/index.php/heritage/internal/heritage-swine-faq


----------



## highlands

The LC is promoting missinformation. They claim that a heritage breed is by definition a US breed and an endangered breed. Bad definition. Heritage has a specific meaning:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/heritage

If they want to use other adjectives they should say something like "Endangered US Heritage Breed" but trying to change the meaning of the word is fundamentally dishonest of the LC.

For example: Yorkshire are one of the _oldest_ breeds and are definitely a heritage breed but they are not endangered because they are so good, so successful. Yorkshire is a Heritage Breed. Just not endangered. 

There are other heritage breeds that aren't in the USA but are still heritage breeds. The LC's being nationalistic on that one.

The LC should stop being so myopic because they're confusing people.

Anything the LC says I would take with ten grains of salt.


----------



## Mid-MO

Questions for you all on K-31 fescue. This stuff is everywhere around here. No matter where I start my operation, I am sure to encounter it. 

1. Is it palatable? Assuming it is part of a grass/legume mixture, will hogs eat it?

2. If the answer to #1 is yes, are there toxicity issues with hogs like there is with cattle? How about causing an off flavor of meat? This seems to be a fairly significant issue with cattle. 

3. Have any of you successfully rid yourself of it? If so, by what means (tillage, chemicals, etc)? I attempted to till up a small area of it last year in order to plant a deer plot. I hit it with a disk multiple times, once a week, for a month in the fall. Believe it or not, it came back stronger in the spring and completely shut out what I had broadcast seeded.


Another (off topic) reason I ask is that I can find fescue bales in this area for right around the same price as straw (basically due to supply and demand, not much straw being put up in my immediate area) so if there are no issues with it, I may consider it for bedding.


----------



## highlands

I avoid planting fescue due to the toxicity at stress. My understanding is there is a variety called Patriot (?) that does not have the toxicity.

-Walter


----------



## gerold

I have planted lots of K-32. It is very good for cattle and hogs. Grows really good here in Mo. It is best to mix 4or5 other grasses with it. Clover etc. If you have other grasses mixed with it makes it better for Hogs and Cattle. It will come back year after year and grow just about all year. Makes for a very good winter pasture for the Hogs.

Sounds like you have a very good stand of it that you run the disk over. When you run the disk over it before a rain just plant other grasses over Best to plant K32 to replace the k31. K32 is Endophyte free.

Have used fescue for years no off flavor at all with cattle or hogs. Fescue has over the years replaced most of the older grasses for pasture as it is easy to grow and grows fast and is good for the livestock.

I use a mix of hay with fescue being the main one for bedding. The pigs love it and eat the seeds off it in the winter.

Soil ph 6.0-7.0


----------



## gerold

For butcher hogs for my own use i pen the hog up for 45 days before butchering.
Feed it all the ground corn it can eat 24/7 and fresh water each day. No pasture,No Soy.
Makes for good tasting meat and lots of good tasting fat to flavor the meat.


----------



## Mid-MO

highlands said:


> I avoid planting fescue due to the toxicity at stress. My understanding is there is a variety called Patriot (?) that does not have the toxicity.
> 
> -Walter


There are a few other endophyte free varieties now being used in this area as well, such as K-32 that Gerold mentioned below. I think the earlier endophyte-free varieties had persistence and drought issues so they weren't used much in the past. My main concern is dealing with existing K-31 if I happen to graze a field road, water way, etc. 




gerold said:


> I have planted lots of K-32. It is very good for cattle and hogs. Grows really good here in Mo. It is best to mix 4or5 other grasses with it. Clover etc. If you have other grasses mixed with it makes it better for Hogs and Cattle. It will come back year after year and grow just about all year. Makes for a very good winter pasture for the Hogs.
> 
> Sounds like you have a very good stand of it that you run the disk over. When you run the disk over it before a rain just plant other grasses over Best to plant K32 to replace the k31. K32 is Endophyte free.
> 
> Have used fescue for years no off flavor at all with cattle or hogs. Fescue has over the years replaced most of the older grasses for pasture as it is easy to grow and grows fast and is good for the livestock.
> 
> I use a mix of hay with fescue being the main one for bedding. The pigs love it and eat the seeds off it in the winter.
> 
> Soil ph 6.0-7.0


Glad to hear that you have had success with the K-32. A few neighbors have used MFA's "Select Tall Fescue" and it looks like they have decent stands where the grass got thin a few years ago.

Clarify one thing for me-you have had success doing a light tilling of K-31 and having K-32 take over without any type of chemical treatment on the K-31? Just want to clarify that since my tillage experiment clearly didn't work! Mine could have been due to other factors of course-rain, what I planted behind it, etc

Also glad to hear about no off flavors. I'm often wondering if that is an over-stated issue when it comes to grass fed/finished cattle but that is certainly a topic for a different thread (I better pop over to the cattle forum and see if it has been discussed)



gerold said:


> For butcher hogs for my own use i pen the hog up for 45 days before butchering.
> Feed it all the ground corn it can eat 24/7 and fresh water each day. No pasture,No Soy.
> Makes for good tasting meat and lots of good tasting fat to flavor the meat.


Not to take this thread off topic too much, but do you pen and grain feed your hogs that you take to market or do they pasture all the way to the locker? 

Thanks,

Mid-MO


----------



## gerold

Mid-MO said:


> There are a few other endophyte free varieties now being used in this area as well, such as K-32 that Gerold mentioned below. I think the earlier endophyte-free varieties had persistence and drought issues so they weren't used much in the past. My main concern is dealing with existing K-31 if I happen to graze a field road, water way, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Glad to hear that you have had success with the K-32. A few neighbors have used MFA's "Select Tall Fescue" and it looks like they have decent stands where the grass got thin a few years ago.
> 
> Clarify one thing for me-you have had success doing a light tilling of K-31 and having K-32 take over without any type of chemical treatment on the K-31? Just want to clarify that since my tillage experiment clearly didn't work! Mine could have been due to other factors of course-rain, what I planted behind it, etc
> 
> Also glad to hear about no off flavors. I'm often wondering if that is an over-stated issue when it comes to grass fed/finished cattle but that is certainly a topic for a different thread (I better pop over to the cattle forum and see if it has been discussed)
> 
> I have one plot that is K-31 that has been disk and replanted with K-32 and other grasses. Very heavy stand of grass and lasting all winter with the hogs on it a few times. I have had no problem with K-31 at all, just replanting with K-32 because it is suppose to be better. I can't tell the different between the two. I would not worry about the K-31, just plant over it with K-32 and orchard,brome,rye,and some clover if you can fine the clover at a good price. The other grasses you can get in a mix (rye,orchard grass) No chemical treatment on the K-31. I do not use chemicals to kill anything on farm. If i want to replant something like some pasture i plant peas,milo,etc. i just plow/disc up in the fall and plow/disc again in the spring and plant new crops.
> 
> 
> Not to take this thread off topic too much, but do you pen and grain feed your hogs that you take to market or do they pasture all the way to the locker?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mid-MO


I sell very few butcher hogs. The ones i do sell are the ones that the 4H and FFA kids don't take. I sell quite a few roaster hogs and hogs under 150 lbs. that people buy to raise themselves. Almost all my hogs are raised on pasture plus some grain. The only ones i pen up and feed out with corn is the ones i butcher for myself and extended family that do their own butchering. 

I do sell a lot of breeding stock. The breeding stock is what pays the bills. 
My breeding stock sell for a very good price. My breeding stock gets special feed, 18 percent protein same as all my little weaned piglets. They are on pasture also but have their own pasture.

O.T.
I have oldspot/hereford cross piglets that are very special that are not for sell yet. This is a cross that i think will be nice. See what happens in a few mos. with this cross. So far they look good.


----------



## Mid-MO

gerold said:


> I sell very few butcher hogs. The ones i do sell are the ones that the 4H and FFA kids don't take. I sell quite a few roaster hogs and hogs under 150 lbs. that people buy to raise themselves. Almost all my hogs are raised on pasture plus some grain. The only ones i pen up and feed out with corn is the ones i butcher for myself and extended family that do their own butchering.
> 
> I do sell a lot of breeding stock. The breeding stock is what pays the bills.
> My breeding stock sell for a very good price. My breeding stock gets special feed, 18 percent protein same as all my little weaned piglets. They are on pasture also but have their own pasture.
> 
> O.T.
> I have oldspot/hereford cross piglets that are very special that are not for sell yet. This is a cross that i think will be nice. See what happens in a few mos. with this cross. So far they look good.


Thanks again for the info on the grasses.

Curious to hear more about your breeding stock. I'll be in touch as things progress with my operation.


----------



## Mid-MO

Gerold,

Another question for you. In the thread below you mentioned that you plant Sudan Grass. Is there a specific variety that has done well for you? I have read up on Sudan Grass, however, there seems to be a LOT of different varieties out there-BMR, non-BMR, dwarf, etc. Also, do you use this in a mix or stand alone? I guess I have concerns about using it in a mix due to the high yield, meaning, would it quickly shade out any lower growing Brassicas, Legumes, Forbs, etc. 


Thanks,

Mid-MO


http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/474188-cover-crop-otptions-foraging-pigs.html


----------



## gerold

Mid-MO said:


> Gerold,
> 
> Another question for you. In the thread below you mentioned that you plant Sudan Grass. Is there a specific variety that has done well for you? I have read up on Sudan Grass, however, there seems to be a LOT of different varieties out there-BMR, non-BMR, dwarf, etc. Also, do you use this in a mix or stand alone? I guess I have concerns about using it in a mix due to the high yield, meaning, would it quickly shade out any lower growing Brassicas, Legumes, Forbs, etc.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mid-MO
> 
> 
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/474188-cover-crop-otptions-foraging-pigs.html


I don't remember which variety i planted last year, however it was small didn't get very tall. It varies from year to year. I will know next month when i check on seed for this year. I will be planting a plot with clover or something else. I haven't had any problem with it shading anything out.


----------



## highlands

Another good thread on rotational grazing:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/li...-any-ideas-converting-rotational-grazing.html

Very long - a good winter read.

-Walter


----------



## amthatcher

I'm wondering if I need to be worried about my piglets picking up any worms from my sheep. Sheep always seem to have some load but I didn't know if I put the piglets on common ground if they would pick up something harmful. And if they did pick up worms how do I know if it's a problem? Thanks!


----------



## dlskidmore

Most worms have a native host and don't multiply in the other host if they can even infect them.


----------



## highlands

We have not had a problem with co-grazing sheep, pigs, chickens, ducks and geese. I would suggest doing managed rotational grazing to break parasite life cycles. It's pretty easy to do. 

We also use powdered garlic which I've shown to be effective with double blind testing. But the rotational grazing is our main tool.

Please fill in your location information which makes it easier to answer questions. At the very least your zone. See this thread:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/505485-please-fill-location-info.html

-Walter


----------



## DEKE01

dlskidmore said:


> Most worms have a native host and don't multiply in the other host if they can even infect them.


Last week I had a guy tell me with all sincerity that you can pasture 2 of any species but if you add a third, that's when the worms will become unbearable. 

He's a nice guy and I'm sure he thought he was being helpful, so I just said something like "oh really?" and let it go. 

Highlands just listed 5 species on the same land and he left out his dogs. And if his farm is like mine, there's the occasional people-pile-a-poo, deer, wild turkey, and bunches of other native critters.


----------



## highlands

"Does a bear do in the woods?"
"Not if the Agency of Natural Resources can help it."

When I check out the bear or coyote scat I find someone else in there... a mouse, a cat, etc... Double do-do.

-Walter


----------



## gerold

DEKE01 said:


> Last week I had a guy tell me with all sincerity that you can pasture 2 of any species but if you add a third, that's when the worms will become unbearable.
> 
> He's a nice guy and I'm sure he thought he was being helpful, so I just said something like "oh really?" and let it go.
> 
> Highlands just listed 5 species on the same land and he left out his dogs. And if his farm is like mine, there's the occasional people-pile-a-poo, deer, wild turkey, and bunches of other native critters.


http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/an039

I do not mix my animals. They have their own pastures, Pigs,Cows,Chickens etc.

Some worms in Dogs,Pigs, etc. can infect other animals and mammals including people. There are many links on this worm problem. I do take it very serious. I worm my pigs, and dogs ever 8 months. 

Large stomach worms can be a big problem with Pigs,Dogs, etc. 

Best,
Gerold.


----------



## DEKE01

gerold said:


> http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/an039
> 
> I do not mix my animals. They have their own pastures, Pigs,Cows,Chickens etc.
> 
> Some worms in Dogs,Pigs, etc. can infect other animals and mammals including people. There are many links on this worm problem. I do take it very serious. I worm my pigs, and dogs ever 8 months.
> 
> Large stomach worms can be a big problem with Pigs,Dogs, etc.
> 
> Best,
> Gerold.


Oh, I take worms seriously, didn't mean to imply otherwise. I was just taking a jab at the bad info that gets passed around. 

We took in 2 rescue horses. They got wormed, vet checked, and the farrier while they sat in a quarantine pen for a few weeks. After they left the Q pen, we dragged the pen and it will sit empty for at least a couple of months.


----------



## TrickyRick86

Hey guys haven't got any pigs yet but am looking at the spring and getting my paddocks ready now. Just read the entire thread and must say thank you all for taking the time to pass on your knowledge...very informative read. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is how do most of you plant your pastures with the various brassicas, forbs, etc? I have 10 acres of pasture for my sheep and was thinking of broadcast overseeding with some of the plant species you all mention i.e. radishes, turnips, milo, etc. It seems a lot of people actually plow and seed (if I am reading right). How can you maintain the pastures if you are plowing and seeding? Or do you use a drill or something? 

Do any of you run sheep and pigs together? Or one before or after the other over the same ground? Do the sheep eat the daikon radishes, comfrey, etc as well?

Again thanks for all the great information!:clap: If it wasn't so cold and getting ready to snow I would go out and do something today! You have all inspired me! 

BTW I live in SE VA. What would most people think would work here for other forages besides grass for me? Long hot summers, and short cold winters (teens some nights with maybe a negative number in there somewhere).


----------



## highlands

We frost, mob and storm seed by hand broadcasting. Soft grasses, legumes, brassicas, millets, amaranth, chicory and other forages. I like a mix.

We have run sheep and pigs together for years. Separate ewes during lambing.

-Walter


----------



## TrickyRick86

highlands said:


> We frost, mob and storm seed by hand broadcasting. Soft grasses, legumes, brassicas, millets, amaranth, chicory and other forages. I like a mix.
> 
> We have run sheep and pigs together for years. Separate ewes during lambing.
> 
> -Walter


Thanks again Walter!


----------



## edwardsonfarm

Along with the seeding, how long does it usually take for such plants like rutabaga, turnips, clover, grasses to hold before you can have the animals back on the pasture? Roughly speaking


----------



## highlands

Each of those require different times. Grasses and clovers, ideal is multiple months to a year. For turnips and such it could be a month

-Walter


----------



## momgoat

I was looking at giving our pigs about an acre to have access once we find a new place to buy. From the sounds of it (& please correct me if I'm wrong), but it'd be better to cut that down into smaller paddocks instead of giving them full access, right?
My "plan" is to set up abt an acre for the pigs to graze on during the day & then in the evening pen them up with grain as a "bedtime" snack to get them to come in of a night. One property we're looking at just has grass, probably orchard. I haven't looked at it completely, since we have to wait on it. 
But with rotating (through the whole acreage) there'll be goats, cows & horses also on the acreage...is anything that was suggested above safe for the rest to eat too?


----------



## highlands

Many small paddocks are far better than one large paddock. An acre divided into ten paddocks is an excellent managed rotational grazing system for up to ten pigs if you have good skills. Start with a quarter or so of that and work you way up. I find they eat about 23 sq-ft/hundredweight/day of pasture.

We plant:

soft grasses (bluegrass, rye, timothy, wheat, etc);

legumes (alfalfa, clovers, trefoil, vetch, ect);

brassicas (kale, broccoli, turnips, etc);

millets (White Proso Millet, Japanese Millet, Pearl Millet);

amaranth;

chicory; and

other forages and herbs.

-Walter


----------



## Dustin

What is the best way to keep shelter and water access readily available if one wanted many small paddocks? That's my planning hurdle for pigs this spring.


----------



## momgoat

highlands said:


> Many small paddocks are far better than one large paddock. An acre divided into ten paddocks is an excellent managed rotational grazing system for up to ten pigs if you have good skills. Start with a quarter or so of that and work you way up. I find they eat about 23 sq-ft/hundredweight/day of pasture.
> 
> We plant:
> 
> soft grasses (bluegrass, rye, timothy, wheat, etc);
> 
> legumes (alfalfa, clovers, trefoil, vetch, ect);
> 
> brassicas (kale, broccoli, turnips, etc);
> 
> millets (White Proso Millet, Japanese Millet, Pearl Millet);
> 
> amaranth;
> 
> chicory; and
> 
> other forages and herbs.
> 
> -Walter


I'm keeping this bookmarked for later & going to have an acreage set aside for the pigs (assuming we can find a place with at least 5 acres) & seeing about planting that in their area. I was thinking of doing this for my goats too (before I thought of putting the pigs on pasture) so the acre can be my "experimental" plot...:-D now to just get the housing market to cooperate with me. :-D


----------



## highlands

Dustin, brush is well favored for shelter by the pigs. If you don't have trees or brush then just about anything that provides shade works. Old water tanks, pickup truck caps, a tarp (keep it up out of pig reach), pallet shed, etc.


----------



## momgoat

Dustin said:


> What is the best way to keep shelter and water access readily available if one wanted many small paddocks? That's my planning hurdle for pigs this spring.


They're not too picky. Anything just about that provides them easy access to get into & gets them out of the sun. We have a tin lined short lean-to & have pallet shelters also.


----------



## momgoat

highlands said:


> That is too big. Instead fence the two acres with a good strong perimeter fence and then divide it up into multiple paddocks so that you can do rotational grazing to prevent any one area from getting too beaten up. As you rotate them, plant behind them. This will improve the forages, break parasite life cycles, prevent compaction of the soil and gradually improve the pasture...."[UNQUOTE]
> 
> Hey Walter,
> I wanted to pick your brain a bit (its easier then searching for thread)....Pretty soon we'll be moving to our own place. Its just a little 6 acre farmette/hobby farm. We've got to change some fencing (its 6 strand barbed wire), but I am "planning" on using about an acre for them to graze on & I've been looking for the thread where you mention dividing the acre into paddocks, but I can't find anything where you mention what size the paddocks should be. Right now I have 3 Mulefoot/Red Wattle Cross Sows (full grown about 5-600 #'s + & a young boar (same breed). I'll have them probably in their own space (at least the boar separated from the sows....maybe, right now he's too short to commence any business). But I want to start making plans on the size of the paddocks. I have cows, horses & goats that'll share the 6 acres. The cows (2) & the goats (10) will spend the summer on a 5 acre parcel elsewhere for the summer, so I can use a more grassier area for the pigs (& horses) while I work on the one acreage. But, I was curious about the size of paddocks to make.
> I am making a list of the grasses, legumes, etc. that were mentioned in another thread.
> And I was looking at sharing this acreage with the goats, to give them a broader foraging variety to their diet. But not have them on at the same time as the pigs. there's weeds that the goats will eat, that the pigs may not.
> thanks


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## highlands

momgoat said:


> I wanted to pick your brain a bit (its easier then searching for thread)....


Careful, brain picking is how BSE, wasting, Creutzfeldt-Jakob and other transmissible spongiform encephalopathies are transmitted...   



momgoat said:


> Pretty soon we'll be moving to our own place. Its just a little 6 acre farmette/hobby farm.


That is a good size for a small homestead farm. Should be small enough that the taxes are not too dear. Small enough that the fencing is doable. Keep your land impact to a minimum (roads, buildings, etc) to maximize how much can be used for your homesteading. At only six acres I would get a good strong physical and electric perimeter fence up around the entire thing. Very doable and not too much expense. I would suggest high tensile woven wire for the bottom 28" or so topped by one to four strands of electrified high tensile wire to create a very strong perimeter. If you have need (local dogs, predators then put a hot wire low and outside offset by about six inches and around eight inches to a foot up. If you find need later, add a low hot wire offset on the inside to keep stock from trying to undermine the fence. Last too might not be necessary. See what I consider a hog proof fence here: http://sugarmtnfarm.com/2015/11/17/pig-proof-fence/



momgoat said:


> We've got to change some fencing (its 6 strand barbed wire),


I would ditch the barbed wire. It is okay for cattle and sheep, maybe goats, but very bad for pigs, horses and humans. Never have barbed wire on the same fence line as electric. Barbed wire is mean to hurt and hold while electric is meant to hurt and release. Electrified barbed wire can kill animals, including humans. Not recommended. I've got barbed wire around the place in spots that I've been removing for three decades - long, long ago our place was sheep and cattle and they didn't have electric fencing so they used barbed wire. I'm forever removing the stuff. The only use I have for it is to use the rust to add iron to my whey tanks for the pigs.



momgoat said:


> but I am "planning" on using about an acre for them to graze on & I've been looking for the thread where you mention dividing the acre into paddocks, but I can't find anything where you mention what size the paddocks should be.


An acre is enough to do one breeding pair and offspring with some supplementation. Rather than dedicating one acre to the pigs I would suggest dividing the entire area that you can give over to grazing into many paddocks, at least ten. You can start with the perimeter fence, then subdivide as you have time and money. Strongly fence off garden areas - I use these sorts of places as winter paddocks to then grow summer crops for the livestock and us. I don't grow ground things I would eat raw in those plots but higher plants or cooked things are fine.

Paddock size varies with time, animal numbers, season, soil and such. With pigs I figure 23 sq-ft per 100 lbs of animal per day of grazing. That is a maximum. You probably want to move them faster than that. Graze on up to 14 days and then rest for at least 21 days. Too large a paddock encourages cherry picking which leaves weed species to proliferate - bad. Many smaller paddocks are better than fewer larger paddocks. 



momgoat said:


> Right now I have 3 Mulefoot/Red Wattle Cross Sows (full grown about 5-600 #'s + & a young boar (same breed).


I don't have those breeds so I can't comment on them directly. As a general rule, keep breed the best of the best and eat the rest. Over the long term your herd genetics improve. Cull hard, cull often. Mistakes taste like bacon.



momgoat said:


> I'll have them probably in their own space (at least the boar separated from the sows....


I keep boars and sows together. If a boar can't be good with piglets I eat him.



momgoat said:


> maybe, right now he's too short to commence any business). But I want to start making plans on the size of the paddocks. I have cows, horses & goats that'll share the 6 acres. The cows (2) & the goats (10) will spend the summer on a 5 acre parcel elsewhere for the summer, so I can use a more grassier area for the pigs (& horses) while I work on the one acreage. But, I was curious about the size of paddocks to make.


I've grazed sheep with pigs - separate during lambing season. Works for us. We also graze chickens, ducks and geese with our pigs. It is beneficial to have multiple species. The poultry free range but really follow the herbivores around because the larger animals do interesting things like stir up insects, poop, ect. You can do the other species serially and together they help graze paddocks better as they each graze differently.



momgoat said:


> I am making a list of the grasses, legumes, etc. that were mentioned in another thread.


Here's my list - you'll have to adjust it based on your local climate and soils. Asking the ag extension about the local dairy cattle forage plantings is a good place to start and then boost legumes and add other things that fit:

soft grasses (bluegrass, rye, timothy, wheat, etc);
legumes (alfalfa, clovers, trefoil, vetch, ect);
brassicas (kale, broccoli, turnips, etc);
millets (White Proso Millet, Japanese Millet, Pearl Millet);
amaranth;
chicory; and
other forages and herbs.

I do frost seeding, mob seeding, storm seeding as our land is too steep and stoney for machine working. See: http://SugarMtnFarm.com/frost-seeding

Seed companies we buy from: Johnny's, Hancock, High Mow, Bakers and a couple of-others I'm not thinking of at the moment.



momgoat said:


> And I was looking at sharing this acreage with the goats, to give them a broader foraging variety to their diet. But not have them on at the same time as the pigs. there's weeds that the goats will eat, that the pigs may not.


Aye, that is a good plan.

Cheers,

-Walter


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## momgoat

highlands said:


> Careful, brain picking is how BSE, wasting, Creutzfeldt-Jakob and other transmissible spongiform encephalopathies are transmitted...
> 
> Yeah it'd probably be good to limit the picking then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a good size for a small homestead farm. Should be small enough that the taxes are not too dear. Small enough that the fencing is doable. Keep your land impact to a minimum (roads, buildings, etc) to maximize how much can be used for your homesteading. At only six acres I would get a good strong physical and electric perimeter fence up around the entire thing. Very doable and not too much expense. I would suggest high tensile woven wire for the bottom 28" or so topped by one to four strands of electrified high tensile wire to create a very strong perimeter. If you have need (local dogs, predators then put a hot wire low and outside offset by about six inches and around eight inches to a foot up. If you find need later, add a low hot wire offset on the inside to keep stock from trying to undermine the fence. Last too might not be necessary. See what I consider a hog proof fence here: http://sugarmtnfarm.com/2015/11/17/pig-proof-fence/
> [unquote]
> 
> *Yeah thankfully the property taxes are low, which is a slight surprise, but one that I gladly accept. LOL The perimeter fence is all in barbed wire mad:), we're planning on removing it as we can. But for right now we're going to put up livestock paneling in the main area now. We have unfortunately already had experience with the damage that a barbed wire can do to horses (several years ago we had to deal with an abandoned herd of horses & one of them was a stud who jumped an adjoining fence to get to my mare & busted the top 2 strands of barbed wire (old rusted) & cut my mare on the front part of her shoulder where it couldn't be stitched do to the movement), so that's going bye bye as soon as it is financially possible to replace it. There's also some Russian Olive tree's that are also going to be moved & turned into firewood (also have experience on what those "trees" can do to a horse, not pretty). I will check out the link.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would ditch the barbed wire. It is okay for cattle and sheep, maybe goats, but very bad for pigs, horses and humans. Never have barbed wire on the same fence line as electric. Barbed wire is mean to hurt and hold while electric is meant to hurt and release. Electrified barbed wire can kill animals, including humans. Not recommended. I've got barbed wire around the place in spots that I've been removing for three decades - long, long ago our place was sheep and cattle and they didn't have electric fencing so they used barbed wire. I'm forever removing the stuff. The only use I have for it is to use the rust to add iron to my whey tanks for the pigs. [unquote]
> 
> ****Yep.....its getting ditched as quickly as possible. Looking at doing a no climb perimeter, but its not definite. Not good for goats either. We have barbed wire on our fences now (renting) & livestock woven wire fencing is on the bottom & barbed on the top, the fences are crap from most of the area, but the goats will go over all of it or in between the woven & barbed. So having just strands...... they'd go right through it (& it'd take a lot of strands of hot wire to get them to stay put). And no....definitely wouldn't electrify barbed wire, that's bad on many level's. (I don't like electrocuting myself )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An acre is enough to do one breeding pair and offspring with some supplementation. Rather than dedicating one acre to the pigs I would suggest dividing the entire area that you can give over to grazing into many paddocks, at least ten. You can start with the perimeter fence, then subdivide as you have time and money. Strongly fence off garden areas - I use these sorts of places as winter paddocks to then grow summer crops for the livestock and us. I don't grow ground things I would eat raw in those plots but higher plants or cooked things are fine.[unquote]
> 
> ***Yeah they'll be supplemented, especially until we can set up the rest of the fields for them to access too. General plan is, to give them a place to graze during the day & then at night to bring in to their pens & fed. Keeps them from escaping while we sleep, but it'll keep an large predators from getting them easier. Since this will be a new home, we don't know how the neighbor's are (or their animals) or anyone down the road. I don't think I'll share my garden space with them (course at this moment I don't even have a garden plot on this property, so I'll have to figure out where to put that too).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paddock size varies with time, animal numbers, season, soil and such. With pigs I figure 23 sq-ft per 100 lbs of animal per day of grazing. That is a maximum. You probably want to move them faster than that. Graze on up to 14 days and then rest for at least 21 days. Too large a paddock encourages cherry picking which leaves weed species to proliferate - bad. Many smaller paddocks are better than fewer larger paddocks.[unquote]
> 
> ***ok, sounds like a good start. My girls are pretty lazy, especially the youngest, but I think this'll be good for their diet. And I think if I can get everything fenced to keep them in, that we'll eventually be able to easily give the appropriate rest time up to 30 days. Especially with having 1/2 my herd (goats & cows) in a separate area all together during the summer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have those breeds so I can't comment on them directly. As a general rule, keep breed the best of the best and eat the rest. Over the long term your herd genetics improve. Cull hard, cull often. Mistakes taste like bacon. [unquote]
> 
> I love this breed (both), they were raised for their bacon & lard & they're meat is lean, good red color & OHHHHHH so delicious. They can get between 6-800 pounds if you keep them long enough, good for pastures, but also in pens. And they make tasty bacon for sure (well, all cuts are very tasty)  Due to our current location I generally didn't keep more than 3-4 sows (well, 2 sows & 1-2 gilts) for breeding & 1-3 others for butcher for us. I'm going to get back up to that soon.
> One other question I had is.....how long do most breeders keep their sows? I don't breed mine heavily (meaning they generally have just one litter a year), I know many do 2+, but I haven't. My oldest mom is about 5 yrs old now, her daughter is 3-4.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I keep boars and sows together. If a boar can't be good with piglets I eat him.[unquote]
> The first boar we had, he was an escape artist & got very mean, so we sold him. Our 2nd one, we sold too, but he was fantastic with the baby's. I'm hoping our new boar will be also. As for eating......I've been told by the pig farmer's around here that their meat isn't worth eating unless you like strong tasting sausage  and it doesn't matter how long after they've been castrated that once they've been breeding their meat is not good tasting, our slaughter plant that does pigs won't even use the meat from a boar. So......how can you 'change' their meat flavor? Or can you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've grazed sheep with pigs - separate during lambing season. Works for us. We also graze chickens, ducks and geese with our pigs. It is beneficial to have multiple species. The poultry free range but really follow the herbivores around because the larger animals do interesting things like stir up insects, poop, ect. You can do the other species serially and together they help graze paddocks better as they each graze differently. [unquote]
> 
> our poultry is free range also, at our current place our pigs are in pens, because there's just way too much fencing around here that would need replaced to make it pig friendly again(this use to be a pig farm, complete with free ranging pigs), but they have gotten out & ran the yard area, chickens can get into their pens (I have 1 hen that sleeps with my sow). but everyone else is separate from them. Hoping to intermingle everyone at our new place....after a while.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's my list - you'll have to adjust it based on your local climate and soils. Asking the ag extension about the local dairy cattle forage plantings is a good place to start and then boost legumes and add other things that fit:
> 
> soft grasses (bluegrass, rye, timothy, wheat, etc);
> legumes (alfalfa, clovers, trefoil, vetch, ect);
> brassicas (kale, broccoli, turnips, etc);
> millets (White Proso Millet, Japanese Millet, Pearl Millet);
> amaranth;
> chicory; and
> other forages and herbs.
> 
> I do frost seeding, mob seeding, storm seeding as our land is too steep and stoney for machine working. See: http://SugarMtnFarm.com/frost-seeding
> 
> Seed companies we buy from: Johnny's, Hancock, High Mow, Bakers and a couple of-others I'm not thinking of at the moment. [unquote]
> 
> many fields around here do timothy & orchard grass, blue grass we usually have in the yard (kentucky blue grass). I've done seeding during rain storms & when it starts snowing....had some really nice grass grow that way, surprisingly the birds & chickens didn't eat all the seed.
> I'll write down the list. It will be interesting to see how this will work, pretty much all of it will grow in my area (south central idaho) & hopefully I can get some or all planted this winter to start coming up in the spring, though I have one area of the field that I want to put them in that I've got a bad thistle problem to tend to.....looks like an orchard in parts. None of my critters will eat them once they get big like this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aye, that is a good plan.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> -Walter[/UNQUOTE]
> 
> Thanks for the help......can't wait to get started on this. Been wanting to set up a a foraging area for the pigs & a better foraging for my goats......my cow would probably enough it too, she's a pig in disguise
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
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## KandCfamilyfarm

highlands said:


> From the Feed thread a list of links about what to plant in pasture:
> 
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/508933-pigs-clear-land.html
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/509066-does-hay-make-sense.html
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/509066-does-hay-make-sense.html
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/508184-growing-your-own-feed.html
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/508502-new-rasing-pigs-pasture-help.html
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/507390-planting-ideas-low-lands.html
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/507888-help-new-pastured-pigs.html
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/505550-pasture-planting-no-till-%ages.html
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/pigs/205131-feed-4.html
> 
> Be sure to get a soil test so you know what you're starting with for your soil conditions.


This is a great ideal but the link is broke could someone check on their end please and thank you! 

*www.homesteadingtoday.com* is currently unable to handle this request.

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