# Overburned Disbudding Pygmies?



## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

A friend of mine has a couple of baby pygmies they disbudded yesterday. Thing is, is they used a calf disbudder, and the babies are probably 3 weeks old. I checked on them today and the burns are huge, both of them have swollen eyes, but one of them's eyes are bulging out huge; and it can barely see. I'm worried about the possible implications of this. Could it be blind? Brain damaged?

They were supposed to be pets, but I don't see how your going to sell a pet pygmy to anyone when it is blind/brain damaged. I gave him some banamine and cleaned out the eye as best I could, anything else I can do? (Either then help the owners buy a proper disbudder!)


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## stevenryals (Apr 1, 2009)

I just read something on this yesterday, but I can't seem to find it.. there's something that you can get that will work well for the swelling.. 
I'll keep looking until I find it or someone else swoops in with a good answer!!


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## stevenryals (Apr 1, 2009)

here we go:



> That usually happens when too large an iron is used. The swelling looks horrible, but it usually goes away on its own in 2-3 days. An injection of 0.25 cc dexamethasone (ask your veterinarian) will alleviate the swelling if it's very bad.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Omg! That is so very sad. What is wrong with people?! How could anyone think that a calf disbudder would work on a tiny little pygmy, and why wait so long to disbud?

At any rate, I have no experience other than readying that brain damage is something you find when you heat the head too long, and surely, the way it sounds, theirs would surely have been heated too long. I would check on them and advise them to have them put to sleep if they don't improve soon. That just sounds so very sad.


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

OMG!!!!

Get them on Dex and some antibiotics NOW! With bulging eyes, you have the brain swelling to worry about plus this really looks like it could turn into a problem with bacteria. A tube of Tomorrow for their widdy heads, plus a skookum dose of Pen and the Dex will make a difference, but who knows if it is in time or not!

If they don;t do it, the babies will more than likely die. Painfully!


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

I called them and told them to give the kids a dose of Dex stat, and I'll go check on them tonight, that website you quoted said '34-36 hours' after disbudding they will sometimes go into convulsions and die from overburning, so I'm going to go and check and see if they are in worse condition. I might take my camera and get some pics so you can see how bad it was!


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

This is really just awful... it makes me sick... I can't imagine how much pain their in:


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

This makes me cry. I truly hope they make it. 

Put tomorrow around the burns, and at least 3ml of Pen (that's a big dose for a tiny baby), but make sure you have Epi on hand. 1/4ml (.25ml) is a 25 lb. dose and should do fine, they will need at least three more days of it- vets recommend only four doses, but if you get a vet to order more doses, they may if it is a 'kill or cure' situation.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

betsy h. said:


> This makes me cry. I truly hope they make it.
> 
> Put tomorrow around the burns, and at least 3ml of Pen (that's a big dose for a tiny baby), but make sure you have Epi on hand. 1/4ml (.25ml) is a 25 lb. dose and should do fine, they will need at least three more days of it- vets recommend only four doses, but if you get a vet to order more doses, they may if it is a 'kill or cure' situation.


Yeah I know, it made me cry too.

Thanks for the advice, will do. I hope they make it, but I'm considering telling them to euthanize... I mean, can you imagine how painful that is?


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

the Dex will help with pain - with good care, they will pull through.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Oh 
My 
Goodness

Those poor things. It looks like the eyelid there swelled so much it split! On the other one the eye looks glossy, but it could just be the picture.

Well, I imagine whatever damage has been done is over, if you can keepp the welling down. They may end up blind anyways.

Does anyone know if the welling from the eyelid would go under the eye socket? It doesn't appear as though they went very deep with the iron, you can see the horns still there, so IMO the brain damage would not have come from the heat of the iron. It would have come from the swelling, but I'm not sure if the swelling would have swelled out or inward under the skull. Anyone know?

They did a lousy job. Those kids look horrible. This type of thing is what gives disudding a bad name. The pics you are seeing are not normal, I just wanted to point out to newby's reading the thread.

Did they give anything for the swelling in the 1st 24 hours? Yes give them something for the pain and swelling, poor things this makes me angry, and all the more willing to make myself available if any locals want a lesson on disbudding. Everyone should have a mentor, this is the perfect example why. These people should either learn how to do this properly with the proper equipment or hire someone or leave the horns intact. What's worse is the disbudding was not successful from what I can tell.

Ugh! Those poor things. I'm rambling.
HF


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

OH MY!!!! That makes me absolutely sick. I'm just glad I'm not there.  That should not be done without some kind of coaching. I'm horrified.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

HappyFarmer said:


> Oh
> My
> Goodness
> 
> ...


They didn't even realize anything was wrong until I came and visited today. So they didn't get ANYTHING until 24 hours after disbudding. If only they would have told me they were disbudding... I would have taught them! :grump:


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

OMG!! I am sorry I opened this thread! I feel so bad for those babies and that they sat there for 24 hours like that makes it worse. They look fried, poor little things. 
If they did not come to you for help they should have at least looked it up online. 
I hate disbudding and that is why I go to a person who has done it for a few years and get it done well and right. 
Are they willing to call a vet? I would to see if there is going to be permanant damage. A nice vet bill might make they think twice about letting this happen again too.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Bricheze what I typed was not directed at you. I know you would have helped had you known. I just had to get it out of my system. 

Thanks for recognizing a problem and trying to find out the best way to help these kids. I wouldn't put them down unless they were showing signs of giving up; then I wouldn't hesitate. Observing them will tell you if they are giving up, or just hurting. They are young, they should heal quickly and hopefully soundly.
HF


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

HappyFarmer said:


> Bricheze what I typed was not directed at you. I know you would have helped had you known. I just had to get it out of my system.
> 
> Thanks for recognizing a problem and trying to find out the best way to help these kids. I wouldn't put them down unless they were showing signs of giving up; then I wouldn't hesitate. Observing them will tell you if they are giving up, or just hurting. They are young, they should heal quickly and hopefully soundly.
> HF


Okay, they're still nursing mom, so as long as get through tonight with no convulsions they'll probably be okay.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

This makes me so angry. How did they not know anything was wrong? Soon as anything seems weird they could've at LEAST googled! Or talked to another goat owner! Or even their vet. GRRRRRRRRRRRR. Those poor babies.   Three weeks old was pushing it anyways... I wonder if they'll even grow hair on the tops of their heads now? it's my guess they'll have shiny scars with no hair there. Certainly not pet quality. If they're dam raised, I'd push them to just euthanize or raise them out and butcher them.

I would be informing them VERY firmly that this was NOT ok, even though they are inexperienced. Something was OBVIOUSLY wrong and they did nothing till you noticed.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

mygoat said:


> This makes me so angry. How did they not know anything was wrong? Soon as anything seems weird they could've at LEAST googled! Or talked to another goat owner! Or even their vet. GRRRRRRRRRRRR. Those poor babies.   Three weeks old was pushing it anyways... I wonder if they'll even grow hair on the tops of their heads now? it's my guess they'll have shiny scars with no hair there. Certainly not pet quality. If they're dam raised, I'd push them to just euthanize or raise them out and butcher them.
> 
> I would be informing them VERY firmly that this was NOT ok, even though they are inexperienced. Something was OBVIOUSLY wrong and they did nothing till you noticed.


I know, we already have so many pygmies floating around as pets here as is, they are dam raised and I was already doubting they could be sold as pets. If their blinded or something there's no way!


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Unbelievable!
These people should be up on charges!


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

stormwalker said:


> Unbelievable!
> These people should be up on charges!


I agree. This was totally irresponsible and I am just sick. These people should not have animals. I am just so sick about this that I can't even speak.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Bricheze, If these burned babies make it I will take them if a home can not be found. How many are there? I don't know how I would get them but I just want to let you that I am open to try to figure something out. Thank goodness you are there to help them out or put them out of their misery if needed.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

Minelson said:


> Bricheze, If these burned babies make it I will take them if a home can not be found. How many are there? I don't know how I would get them but I just want to let you that I am open to try to figure something out. Thank goodness you are there to help them out or put them out of their misery if needed.


Thanks, they have a good owner, it was the current care takers that did this. It's a long story. Anyways, I'll keep you in mind if they need a home.

I think they have a good chance of making it through the night, and if they do, then I'm sure they'll make it over the next couple of days. I'll keep you guys posted and I'll check on them one more time tonight. Oh and it's just the two in the pictures.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

OMG - I wish I'd not seen that, but I am glad, as everyone stated, the little things now have someone to try to help them. I am not sure I'd let them suffer to see if they make it. I would highly recommend telling the people they need to be put down. I just can't imagine letting them live through that kind of pain to see if they make it, but I understand they aren't yours and you can't demand them to do one thing or the other - but I would really push it. 

What stupid and awful people to have done such a thing!


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Poor things! The swelling looks somewhat external, so it may be ok.


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## issylthesthlia (Mar 23, 2009)

Oh, that breaks my heart! The poor babies!


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

Okay you guys probably want to know the full story on 'these people'.

It's an agriculture class, and the guy who did this is a teacher. He is a good teacher, he grew up on a dairy farm for cows and has done a lot of work with cows, pigs, and sheep. But he has almost no experience with goats. A student of his got a pygmy from a friend, who unexpectedly gave birth a couple of weeks ago, to twins. She didn't know anything about disbudding and didn't know better when they did it yesterday (I just talked to her) she was crying the entire time because she loves the kids and she said it looked like it hurt a lot (as we all know... first disbudding experience) I found her on facebook and told her she should check on them tonight, because they were really swollen. I left her my cell number, and she called me and asked about it because didn't know anything had gone wrong, yesterday they were up acting sore but normal (I told the teacher to call her and tell her what was up, apparently he didn't) Then she cried all the way driving down here because she knew they were in pain and she was worried about losing them.

I met her at the farm and checked on the kids. They are both doing a lot better since getting dex earlier, one looks swollen still, but doesn't look like it will have permanent damage, the other one (the pic of the eye above) one eye still looks really bad, but the other one looks okay. They are almost out of the '36 hour woods' (when they could still go into convulsions from the brain swelling) and she is going to stay their a couple of hours and watch them.

She loves the goats, but she has zero experience. She is looking upto a teacher that doesn't really know what he's doing. It's all a big mess and I am doing my best to keep all these goats under good care, but I'm still kind of new to goats myself and I still rely on my own mentor a ton. The worst part is that they will all take his advice over mine, because he is the teacher, but he is just making educated guesses from working with sheep and dairy cattle!


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

I'm so sorry this happened to those poor babies, and I'm SO glad you're there to help and to care. The pictures just make me cry.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

stormwalker said:


> Unbelievable!
> These people should be up on charges!


Seeing those poor little babies like that just breaks my heart! That teacher is teaching nothing but irresponsiblity & animal cruelty. What kind of teacher of agriculture does a procedure like that to a poor little pygmy goat & knows nothing about them & then not think anything is wrong when he looks at them!!
It makes me so mad!!

No one is Blaming you Bircheze & thank Goodness for you they are getting some relief finally.

I really think you should turn him in, Charges should definately be brought against this teacher & he should definately not be disbudding anyone's goats!
I wouldn't trust him to disbud my cattle if I had any even!!


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

He's over stretching his abilities by letting so many students get goats. That's the problem. There are 17 goats there now, most of them are ND's and Pygmies. But we aren't going to find a better teacher as is (we live in the middle of a city) I was one of his students so it's hard for me to have a serious conversation about it; but I will for sure this time. If anything like this happens again I'll have no choice but to report it, anything else is irresponsible. But I'm just going to warn him this time, we really don't have any other options as far as a teacher is concerned; and really he is very passionate and loves animals, he just is very very undereducated and over confident when it comes to goats.


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## BethW (May 3, 2007)

Oh, have mercy. The cruelty of this makes me nauseated and now I'm in tears.

Those poor babies.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

I pray there isn't a "next time". Please tell us there's no more pregnant ones. I would at least file a complaint with a vet's report.



Bricheze said:


> He's over stretching his abilities by letting so many students get goats. That's the problem. There are 17 goats there now, most of them are ND's and Pygmies. But we aren't going to find a better teacher as is (we live in the middle of a city) I was one of his students so it's hard for me to have a serious conversation about it; but I will for sure this time. *If anything like this happens again *I'll have no choice but to report it, anything else is irresponsible. But I'm just going to warn him this time, we really don't have any other options as far as a teacher is concerned; and really he is very passionate and loves animals, he just is very very undereducated and over confident when it comes to goats.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

KimM said:


> I pray there isn't a "next time". Please tell us there's no more pregnant ones. I would at least file a complaint with a vet's report.


Yeah, I wish there were no pregnant ones. There are 7 pregnant ones. I know it's ridiculous, it's because when I was in the program, he let me buy two pregnant does and breed out their kids, so he says other people should have the same chance. 

The difference is, is I have spent a lot of time learning how to care for goats, I have a mentor, and I planned on keeping my goats after I graduated from school; but there isn't much I can do to stop it.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

Maybe you could bring your mentor in to do the disbudding?? And maybe teach him how. But then he'd never get a second chance with my animals. That job showed a total lack of common sense.




Bricheze said:


> Yeah, I wish there were no pregnant ones. There are 7 pregnant ones. I know it's ridiculous, it's because when I was in the program, he let me buy two pregnant does and breed out their kids, so he says other people should have the same chance.
> 
> The difference is, is I have spent a lot of time learning how to care for goats, I have a mentor, and I planned on keeping my goats after I graduated from school; but there isn't much I can do to stop it.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

A teacher  and he does not see that anything is wrong with the babies? 
Honestly if I was the owner I would shove them in his face and ask him why he mutilated the babies. 
Someone should have him read a good goat book. 

Do you know a good vet or a very experienced goat person who could come out and do sort of a lecture/demo about goats health care and the correct way to disbud to all the new goat owners? Even if the "teacher" does not attend the new goat owners might get a better education on how to care for their goats. 

I hope they continue to do well and are not in much pain now.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

I usually go over to my mentors farm and shadow him, he might be willing to come over and teach, no reason not to ask.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

I would report it somehow and someway. Someone that could make such a horrific mistake shouldn't be allowed to teach. I'd never have done such a thing even if I hadn't read a thing on goats. Again, I think it is fortunate you've seen it, have been able to alleviate some of the suffering of these little ones and can maybe act to prevent this from happening again.
I am sorry you've had to see it in person. I'm not sure I could stand it.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

GEEEEZZ!!!! How awful!


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Bricheze, I seriously think you need to do some hard thinking on this about reporting this teacher to someone NOW. Nobody in their right mind would attempt doing this to a baby without knowing what they are doing and using the wrong equipment. When I was looking for someone to disbud my baby minis, I talked to several people who said they did calves but did not know how to do a small goat...and didn't have the right equipment to do it. There was no "well, I could try" or "should be about the same" kind of response...there was an immediate "no, I have never done a goat I only have done calves". This is a teacher and no matter how much he loves animals he needs to held accountable for this. It comes with the job of being in that position. Is there a higher authority at the school that you can go to with this? Has anything similar to this happened before that you are aware of? Maybe not as bad but close? Please just think about it. Or tell someone else. Are there guidance counselors at the school that you could talk to about this? What does your Mentor think about it...did he see the pics?


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

She might not feel comfortable reporting him since her animals are still there, he will continue to be her teacher and they are not her goats. If I was the actual owner I would get in his face but not everyone is comfortable doing that. 
I do not think he was intentionally cruel to these babies, I think he was negligent and ignorant. Both of those led to the the nasty painful disbudding we saw, but not because he decided to just burn the snot out of them. While it is cruel and made me sick to look at it, I do not think it was true animal cruelty; doing it because he gets a kick out of it. 

I think a goat seminar, wether he attends or not would be helpful. Since the rest have little to no goat experience and go to him for advice maybe getting good advice will help them all. Plus they will know Bricheze gets info from her mentor and hopefully will ask her, or have her ask the mentor for advice in the future. 
Also a good idea to offer to them hoof trimming and disbudding for $5 a head. Affordable to them and avoids the teacher entirely. 
Hopefully all the others will see these kids and not use him in the future, or not take him as seriously when it comes to goats.


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Bricheze said:


> . But I'm just going to warn him this time, we really don't have any other options as far as a teacher is concerned; and really he is very passionate and loves animals, he just is very very undereducated and over confident when it comes to goats.


There are always better options.


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

It looks like he used an X50 Rhinehart iron on them without the goat tip. 

It is easy to buy a goat tip, so why not gift him with one- or find a way to get the info to him about the X30, which is a goat iron. The X50 is not for goats without a goat tip on it.....


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

Oh, forgot....you may want to get them some opthalmic ointment- they have tetracycline opthalmic at many feed stores- it will keep the lids moist and the splits not prone to infections.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Minelson said:


> Bricheze, I seriously think you need to do some hard thinking on this about reporting this teacher to someone NOW. Nobody in their right mind would attempt doing this to a baby without knowing what they are doing and using the wrong equipment. When I was looking for someone to disbud my baby minis, I talked to several people who said they did calves but did not know how to do a small goat...and didn't have the right equipment to do it. There was no "well, I could try" or "should be about the same" kind of response...there was an immediate "no, I have never done a goat I only have done calves". This is a teacher and no matter how much he loves animals he needs to held accountable for this. It comes with the job of being in that position. Is there a higher authority at the school that you can go to with this? Has anything similar to this happened before that you are aware of? Maybe not as bad but close? Please just think about it. Or tell someone else. Are there guidance counselors at the school that you could talk to about this? What does your Mentor think about it...did he see the pics?


Bricheze, Minelson is right. If you fear repurcussions, go to the dean first, show pics, provide explanations. 

Teachers are held to a higher standard for a reason. If this man does not behave in an ethical way, he (at the very least) NEEDS to have his mistake pointed out to him. As you stated yourself, people put their trust in him for the simple fact that he IS "The Teacher" and they look to him as an authority.

(Having been in teaching positions myself, I can tell you that there is usually no true screening process to ensure that faculty hires are any good other than their credentials -- and the guy who finishes dead last in the class gets the same degree as the Summa Cum Laude grad.)

Please, do the morally right thing and report this guy to the dean ASAP.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

I agree that the teacher should have researched before trying this procedure. I agree there was no reason for these poor little animals to suffer as they are. I agree the teacher should have picked up on the swelling and persued ways to alleviate the pain. And I agree the outcome is not what was expected, and that this was not intentional cruelty.

Having said that, I don't feel the teacher should be crucified for the mistake he made. I do think he should seek how to perform this procedure correctly, and a very valuable lesson has been taught to the students.

Why would I post such a thing? Because we've all had our first time attempting something we are unfamiliar with. I ask you, would we be taking the same stance if the goats had died or suffered neurological symptoms because he did not have Epeniphrine on hand-how many of you actually keep this on hand? What if there was an infection from a simple banding technique? Hoof trimming job cut far too deep? What about copper bolusing too much and the animal suffered from toxitity issues? Listeriosis from moldy grain? These things are also untintentional but are painful for the animal. 

An additional thought is that it is possible the kids were disbudded the prior night, and it so happens that Brichese saw them after the teacher had left for the day or evening, and he was not aware, but became aware afterwards.
We do not know the circumstances so it is hard to tell. Now if he does this a second time.....well... by all means he should be reported. But please remember this teacher is working with "our" kids, the future farmers. I don't know about you, but around here teachers who are willing to step in a little bit of poop are rare indeed. I say provide him with knowledge so he is informed for the next time, as someone stated gift a goat care book to him.

It is also hard to follow that this person did not research proper techniques, but perhaps thought disbudding a cow was similar to disbudding a goat. I can actually see this line of thinking in the ignorant, though I know better.

Bricheze, if I were in your situation I would talk with the teacher, explaining the proper technique, and even print out instructions from your favorite website showing pictures and all.

We've all made stupid mistakes, unfortunately the animals suffer for it, and we must try to do our best to make it right.
HF


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

It would have been more correct if the teacher had brought a vet who is familiar with disbudding to show everyone, inc. teacher, the way to do it- or at least someone who has been keeping goats for a long time and has the technique lazered into their brains- there may even be some YouTube videos of it- I know there is a great one for castration.

Anyway, you might take a witness with you so there won't be any chance of him accusing you of being out of line or anything........


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

I'm still not reporting him, as other have mentioned in this thread, he is an ag teacher, and those are already hard enough to come by. He is an expert when it comes to caring for sheep, pigs, and cows. If I reported him and he lost his job, and _if_ they could find a replacement, the replacement probably would still know nothing about goats, and also know almost nothing about sheep, pigs, or cows. Which would lead to accidental neglect for all the animals, instead of just the goats; although it might not be as extreme as it has been for the goats. If they didn't find a replacement, it would mean shutting down the program (that has over 200 students), and forcing all of the students to sell all of their projects; and many have spent years on them.

And, also has it has been mentioned, he did not mean to do harm intentionally. He wasn't being cruel or trying to hurt the babies; it was an accident, an incredibly stupid accident, but an accident none the less.


I've been putting together my own goat 'bible' from various websites, that I can keep with me when I am on the field with goats, so I don't have to go home and google for info if I forget something or haven't dealt with something before. For right now, I'll start making copies of this to give to the teacher as well as other students with goats. I'm also planning on having a meeting with all the goat people to go over what needs to be done to ensure the health and safety of all the goats, and why it is important to do research before any type of procedure that hasn't been done before. And why, if your ever not sure that the class is doing the right thing to handle a situation, they can _always_ *call me and ask* about it.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Bricheze, how are the babies today?


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

Please update us and let us know how the babies are doing? Thanks!


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## Sweet Goats (Nov 30, 2005)

I am so glad my goats have to have horns for that reason.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Is no one at least going to address this 1:1 with the instructor?

The thing is, yes, of course we all make mistakes. I'm one of the biggest mistake-makers in the universe -- but I need to know that I messed up so that I can learn and not make the mistakes again.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

Minelson said:


> Bricheze, how are the babies today?


I haven't been to check on them, I'm going to head over there in an hour or so to see how they are doing, no one has called me, so they are probably okay.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

Pony said:


> Is no one at least going to address this 1:1 with the instructor?
> 
> The thing is, yes, of course we all make mistakes. I'm one of the biggest mistake-makers in the universe -- but I need to know that I messed up so that I can learn and not make the mistakes again.


Yeah, I am going to talk with him tomorrow.


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

Bricheze, one thing that I don't understand... does this teacher KNOW he screwed up? You mentioned "they" didn't know anything was wrong... are you seriously saying this teacher saw the current condition of these animals and thought it was acceptable? Or did he not see the results of his experiment?

I don't have goats but love to check out this forum, and I, as an inexperienced, goatless observer would have assumed that a CALF DISBUDDER does not properly fit a GOAT KID, let alone a pygmy! How does this guy not realize this! It's like he's taking the disbudder and playing horseshoes with these kids' horns instead of putting on a tight burn - how could he think this would be a successful strategy, and a teacher at that!

Please, please tell me he realizes the extreme error of his ways, and if he doesn't, that you will make sure he does!


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

SunsetSonata said:


> Bricheze, one thing that I don't understand... does this teacher KNOW he screwed up? You mentioned "they" didn't know anything was wrong... are you seriously saying this teacher saw the current condition of these animals and thought it was acceptable? Or did he not see the results of his experiment?
> 
> I don't have goats but love to check out this forum, and I, as an inexperienced, goatless observer would have assumed that a CALF DISBUDDER does not properly fit a GOAT KID, let alone a pygmy! How does this guy not realize this! It's like he's taking the disbudder and playing horseshoes with these kids' horns instead of putting on a tight burn - how could he think this would be a successful strategy, and a teacher at that!
> 
> Please, please tell me he realizes the extreme error of his ways, and if he doesn't, that you will make sure he does!


The sheep started lambing yesterday morning and he most of gone home before they got really swollen the day of disbudding. He saw the kids yesterday morning, but didn't really look at them because of the sheep, I was the first person to actually look at them since the disbudding a day before. I would have thought a glance would have noticed something was wrong, but apparently no one else noticed anything was wrong until I got there. 

I know it was incredibly stupid, but you have to remember, I am an old student of his, it will be hard to get him to take me seriously.


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

If you think it's bad that a teacher would do that, a vet here in Montana used one of those big irons on a friend's Nigerian babies. I didn't see them but the friend had horror stories. The poor things had burned heads and ears. They had to be treated with antibiotics. When her does kidded the following year, I disbudded them. After that, I think she quit breeding them as they are mainly pets.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Bricheze,

Would you consider putting a "goat" binder together in the vo-ag goat center? Thinking a 3-ring binder, with common techniques printed, behind plastic. Perhaps it could be hung on a chain from the wall for reference. This could be used as a reference for all students.

I would not, however, recommend putting articles concerning sick animals (teenagers may mis-diagnose). I'm talking common vaccines, dosages, & frequencies, proper hoof trimming & pictures, disbudding equipment & techniques, shearing, milking, normal birthing, things like that. A goat book would be good also, but not for students for the teacher.

If you think this would work I can send you $20.00 to help cover the costs of the binder & sleeves if you would be interested in collecting/printing the information.
HF


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## jil101ca (Jul 2, 2007)

One would think an agriculture teacher would have enough common sense to kow that a calf iron would be too big. My hubby knows that and he knows nothing about my goats...


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

It's amazing how much better they look today. They are both swollen but can see again, and seem to have good coordination/vision; I don't think there is any permanent sight damage on one of them, but the other I'm still not sure. The dex did it's job, either then the possibility of infection, I think we're pretty much out of the woods. :goodjob:


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Bricheze said:


> It's amazing how much better they look today. They are both swollen but can see again, and seem to have good coordination/vision; I don't think there is any permanent sight damage on one of them, but the other I'm still not sure. The dex did it's job, either then the possibility of infection, I think we're pretty much out of the woods. :goodjob:


Thank God. I can't tell you how shaken up I am from this. Hubby doesn't even want me to come to the forum anymore. I didn't even look at all the pictures...I saw the first one for split second and quickly scrolled away. 
I still feel that since this is a teacher, someone higher up should be made aware of the mistake. He probably wouldn't loose his job over it anyway. I don't think anyone needs to be crucified. I work at a Vet and if and when I make a mistake I have to deal with the consequences with my boss...everyone does unless they don't get caught. 
My offer still stands that if there is problem finding home for them due to disfigurement or blindness I will try to find a way to get them and give them a good home here. 
I'm so glad they are doing better.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

A thought would be to print these replies off and show them to him - it might make him angry, but it would let him see just how AWFUL what he did was and why he should take serious note of it. I would consider doing that. If he will not take you seriously, I would really, really think about giving him these replies in a print out and how could he not realize what he did was horrifying?

Glad they will make it, it sounds like.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

deineria said:


> A thought would be to print these replies off and show them to him - it might make him angry, but it would let him see just how AWFUL what he did was and why he should take serious note of it. I would consider doing that. If he will not take you seriously, I would really, really think about giving him these replies in a print out and how could he not realize what he did was horrifying?
> 
> Glad they will make it, it sounds like.


Great idea...


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

puke
learner goats
God save them from further torment.
B~


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

deineria said:


> A thought would be to print these replies off and show them to him - it might make him angry, but it would let him see just how AWFUL what he did was and why he should take serious note of it. I would consider doing that. If he will not take you seriously, I would really, really think about giving him these replies in a print out and how could he not realize what he did was horrifying?
> 
> Glad they will make it, it sounds like.



That's a good idea, I'll check on the babies and have a talk with him tomorrow. I'll keep you posted on what happens.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

May I suggest instead of these posts (initially anyway) you collect several photos of properly disbudded kids and show him what it should look like? I thought about some youtube videos but I saw some that were just about as brutal. I didn't see any I'd reccommend showing him.



Bricheze said:


> That's a good idea, I'll check on the babies and have a talk with him tomorrow. I'll keep you posted on what happens.


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## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

I haven't read everything related to this thread but this was no _accident_, this was stupidity, there is a difference. I have zero doubt that there are vets somewhere around there and at least one has experience with goats and pygmy's. He should have used this as a teaching experience, calling around to vets and see if one would do a "Vet Day" and have the vet out to do a lecture and perform a disbudding on the babies so everyone can learn, including the ag teacher. We've had "Vet Day's" with our little 4H group, for no cost, as a public outreach. Heck, you could have called the 4H groups and found one of the leaders to come out. That didn't happen. You don't just heat up an iron to 1500 degrees, pick up 3 week old babies and burn them, see if you can get it right. 

My daughter (16) has an Ag Teacher (FFA), if this happened, I would report the teacher without blinking an eye, this was total lack of anything that resembles "good judgment". 

Getting off soap box now.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

KimM said:


> May I suggest instead of these posts (initially anyway) you collect several photos of properly disbudded kids and show him what it should look like? I thought about some youtube videos but I saw some that were just about as brutal. I didn't see any I'd reccommend showing him.


Yeah, I was already planning on showing him this one from fiasco farms:










and showing him the difference from the pic I took yesterday:










Could the white at the top mean he burned into skull? Or is the pic just overexposed?


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## Laverne (May 25, 2008)

There's absolutely no excuse for being ignorant on the teachers part. There's too much info on the web how to do a proper disbudding with the right disbudding tips, irons, timing, ect. As an example I did extensive research. Got all my proper equipment together and did an excellent job on my 5 kids. First time ever disbudding. No one ever showing me in person. All turned out perfect. He needs to teach himself. So, nope he has no excuse.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

I have seen worse from vets! Vicki


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> I have seen worse from vets! Vicki


I hope they got sued


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## deafgoatlady (Sep 5, 2007)

Well I feel bad for my vet. Because he did killed a baby ND from disbudding. He told that lady I dont know how do the disbud becuz I know how do disbud for calves and cows. But the lady persist. And My vet burned it too long and he said he feels awful and decided to make other people come to me to disbud the goats. I had to tell the vet you will have to make contract paper for me becuz I dont wanna get sued or whatever.. Sooo. It was so sad. He feels awful. I can see his eyes.. U know..


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

If you do herd work for someone, they are 'hiring' you to do a job for them. If they do not like your work, they can 'fire' you just as easily. Chances are they would not sue.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

I honestly DO NOT understand how any person with a brain that works halfway - even 1/3 of the way - could do that, let alone a vet who made it through animal med school. I wouldn't trust that vet as far as I could throw him. Gosh, this is a sad thread


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## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

If a vet is out of line, they are just like any other doctor, there is a board governing their licenses. They can be turned into their state licensing board and that board will investigate and decide if there should be disciplinary action, including something like pulling their licenses.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Bricheze, So how are the babies doing now? Have you talked with the teacher yet?


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## rdhdstpchild (Jul 13, 2009)

Any news?? My heart about broke seeing the pics. We're pulling for them!


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

They are doing tons better!

I went to see them today; it's amazing to me how fast-healing babies can be with a bit of help. One of them looks totally fine, his eyes are still a little swollen, but he is okay. The other one is more swollen, but also looks fine. I didn't have enough time to jump the fence and see if they could both see okay, but they look millions better compared to a few days ago!


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

That is wonderful! Are they playing and stuff? Did you talk to the teacher yet?


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

Minelson said:


> That is wonderful! Are they playing and stuff? Did you talk to the teacher yet?


Yeah, they jumped on mom's back and surfed a few times while I was there 

I haven't seen the teacher since when I posted the thread, so I haven't gotten a chance yet; I should see him monday though.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

I am SO GLAD the babies are doing better. I was so worried. Thanks for updating us.


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

I didn't read all the way through;
It is obvious he used a Rhineheart X50 without the goat tip on it. The calf disbudder is technically the base of the X50. The horns on a three week old Pygmy are going to look very similar to a calf that he would normally use the base on.
I use the goat tip for goats and calves, but that is how I was raised seeing it done by the vet. I have seen a new vet use the actual base like used on these kids. He used them on some calves and I felt so bad for those heifers! Huge, unnecesarry areas of burnt skin. He's no longer around.
The sad thing is, those Pygmies will probably still grow back their horns after that job.
So while the teacher did something wrong, you have to consider where he is coming from.
When did the eyes start swelling? Was it after they were taken home? If so, how is he supposed to know what the result was.

My suggestion would be to direct him to places that describe proper disbudding of kids.
It appears he will have to continue to do this with so many goats under his care. So educate him. Don't turn him in for not knowing how differently a goat head reacts than a calf's head.

Things can look far worse at one point and after they recover you never remmeber just how bad it looked. I know we've had a couple of things that swelled horribly but later you would never know it by looking at them. Everyone is so quick to kill it seems. Give them a chance. If they are still nursing and still enjoying life, why take it from them due to the mistake of another?


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