# Meat & Milk from CL CAE Positive Goat - Safe?



## Pam in KY (Jul 26, 2011)

Howdy everyone, I'm new to the goat section and have been gleaning a lot of good info here. After reading about CL & CAE, was wondering if the meat/milk is safely consumable by humans? 

I should be getting my 1st doeling in a few days and another right after that. I can't wait! :clap:


----------



## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Meat is safe for CL/CAE - though slaughterhouses condemn carcasses if there are internal abscesses because they are too hard to remove completely and are a large risk to consumers. External abscesses are easily removed at slaughter with the hide.

Milk is safe for human consumption for CAE only. CL is zoonotic, and abscesses can be present in the udder. Also, keeping a CL positive dairy animal around is irresponsible both for your own health as well as the health of the offspring you will need to produce every year to keep the doe in milk. 

Really, there are TONS Of clean herds out there with affordable kids/does to be had. Start out right and buy CLEAN animals. Ask questions about testing (ask to SEE the paperwork from the lab! The ENTIRE HERD should be tested!), abscess status for the HERD, biosecurity protocols, how often they show and bring in new goats.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I can only tell you from my own personal point of view. (I know I stated that redundantly, but it was on purpose for emphasis.)

I will NOT keep a CL or CAE positive animal. I will not eat meat or consume milk from a CL or CAE positive animal.

My husband has my left kidney (on anti-rejection drugs) and my grandson is a cancer survivor (his immune system is obviously not perfect). I'm not going to allow my goats to contribute anything to our diet that is potentially harmful. 

It is my belief that we don't know everything about science and medicine. All I can do is protect my family the best I can, and that includes not using food products from a diseased animal.

If you are selling milk, you don't know the health situations of everyone who might consume it after it leaves your property. Be careful.

There are those who will argue with my reasoning, but my decision stands.


----------



## Pam in KY (Jul 26, 2011)

Thank you for your responses and advice. I definitely don't want a CL/CAE carrier, but was wondering in case I end up with one of those 'false negatives' I keep hearing about. We'll be raising for our own use, but then we do have guests over for meals, etc...


----------



## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

As I have learned from the wonderful people here, CL is a nasty one. 

But, we do have a large goat herd around here (150+ head ) that has CL and they sell the milk do a cheese making factory in Wisconsin. Don't know if the milk is pastured or what. Just a heads up that even though they are selling milk that the goats can have CL. Come to think of it, I thought it strange they had their own diary cow when they were swimming in goat milk.


----------



## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

False negs for CAE are pretty rare. The only time that would really happen is if the goat was exposed to high enough amounts to be infectious, but you tested too early in the infection for the goat to have produced antibodies to the disease. (in adults, transmission between herdmates is rare but possible) Also, young animals (less than 6 mon assuming weaned at about 8-10 weeks of age) fed pasteurized milk from CAE positives may have a titre but if the pasteurization was done correctly, may seroconvert to negative because there is no active infection, just a response to 'dead' virus that entered (think of it kinda like a vaccine - causes an immune response without infection). 

CL is a bit different because the test responds to the TOXIN produced by the CL bacterium (Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis). Once established, the organism lives almost solely in the lymphatic system and/or walled off in abscesses. IF there is no active abscess present, or if animal is well managed (thus reducing stress and breakouts), of it's been a long time since the last outbreak, an animal may test negative but be positive. This is why buying from an abscess free herd is important (or if they had abscesses, they cultured them to see what the causitive agent was - abscesses are not always CL). Also, biosecurity is important - if they sell/buy animals from anywhere and don't isolate, its a risk. If they haven't brought any new animals in for the past year and haven't had abscesses, you're more likely to be safe. 

CL is not really a disease to hide - it tends to show itself if present. Goats tend to get external abscesses esp early in the clinical disease. These often heal to scars on the body in the typical locations for CL on he body (jaw, thigh, armpit etc - note that many vaccines cause a lump at injection site and many are given sub-q in the armpit/barrel...) CAE on the other hand, can be asymptomatic for a long time. Doesn't mean the animal isn't infectious to her kids.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Unfortunately my experience has been that a doeling did not neccessarily appear with any external abscesses. It seems that the stress of pregnancy can trigger a lotdof abscesses so it is important to look at the older members of the herd to check. 
I personally like to see the owner froth at the mouth when discussing peope who don't test for CL as too many people are just fine with not telling you about any abscesses they may have seen. After all not all abscesses are CL so they use that as an excuse never to test and therefore not to know.


----------



## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

Here is the deal. It doesn't cost any more to feed good livestock than bad. A goat ....even a great goat is not a huge investment. So buy from tested herd.


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> CL is zoonotic, and abscesses can be present in the udder.


I have had 2 vets tell me it will not pass to humans. They said maybe, just maybe if the person had a really compromised immune system already. Both of them said they would drink the milk.

They both also told me there are so many false tests & you could be drinking milk from a goat that actually has CL & tested negative. The only sure way to know for sure if it is CL is to test the abscess. I would cull anything with an abscess that I even thought was CL. Just not something I want to deal with even though they say it's ok.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The vets don't always read everything they were presented with in college, either.


----------



## onebizebee (May 12, 2011)

I would not drink milk from goats or any other creature that has abscesses! I would not eat the meat of any animal that has abscesses that we killed. I would strongly question that vets wisdom about goats if he or she believes CL is not contagious to humans. Define immune compromised. Someone actively being treated with chemo or someone who is fighting off a simple cold. At some point we are all immune compromised to a certain extent. Would you really want to risk it and find out. I sure as heck do not!


----------



## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Wendy said:


> I have had 2 vets tell me it will not pass to humans. They said maybe, just maybe if the person had a really compromised immune system already. Both of them said they would drink the milk.


Lots of case studies out there of humans infected with CL if you go looking. Mostly from Australian shepherds, but not all. 

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/2/185.short

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00313029700169944

http://journals.lww.com/pidj/Abstra...terium_Pseudotuberculosis_Necrotizing.21.aspx


From Goat Medicine: 

"Zoonotic Potential
Human lymphadenitis caused by Corynebacterium pseudtotuberculosis has been reported, especially from Australia (Peel et al., 1996; Mills et al. 1997). The course was often protracted and diagnosis delayed until a culture was performed. Recovery usually required surgical removal of the affected lymph node, with supplemental antibiotics. Owners, slaughterhouse workers, and veterinarians should handle infected animals and abscesses with caution."

Yes, the highest risk is obviously contact directly with abscess material. Is drinking raw milk likely to give you CL? Well, it all depends - is there an abscess in the udder? Impossible to say. I will agree its probably lower risk than other infection routes, but most of us with dairies are closely handling them every day, twice a day. She may never get an abscess in the udder, or she may have had a few. It's impossible to say. Even bodily abscesses when you're handling her 2x per day could be the cause of infection. Being in close contact with an animal that has active bodily abscesses increases your risk, period. It is zoonotic, but thanks to many owners being informed and naturally not wanting to get abscess ick on them (and washing hands a lot) is probably why we see it so minimally in humans. I think most goat raisers who ask questions, read a book on care, call a vet about an abscess are likely to hear to be careful handling it.


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

Well, I trust my vet. You can read all kinds of things on-line & diagnose lots of things via the internet. That doesn't mean it's true. That was why I asked 2 different vets. I have a third I will ask when I get a chance to speak to him & see what he says.

I do agree though about culling any with abscesses. Just not something I would want to have to deal with all the time.


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> Lots of case studies out there of humans infected with CL if you go looking


I didn't read the links, but were these cases confirmed to be transmitted from a goat or sheep with CL? Just curious.


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> The vets don't always read everything they were presented with in college, either.


True, but a lot of people on-line have not had the schooling a vet has, yet feel they know more than the vet does.


----------



## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Wendy said:


> I didn't read the links, but were these cases confirmed to be transmitted from a goat or sheep with CL? Just curious.


Please read at least the first paragraph from the first link, the Oxford Journal. They study 10 cases of human lymphadenitis (and talk about 12 previously reported cases) in people who were occupationally exposed to sheep. NONE of these humans had any underlying illness or disease. 

This is not just some random person posting stuff online, these are university studies! And CL is not a reportable disease in the US, so it is under reported. This is from BMC Veterinary Research: "Sheep caseous lymphadenitis (CLA), caused by Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis (Cp), is associated with direct economic losses and *presents significant zoonotic potential*." 

I think I'd trust these published university studies with numerous cases of proven disease, over a vet who may not be the best resource for up to date info on these specifics, although I'd really be wary of a vet who didn't know CL was zoonotic.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Wendy said:


> True, but a lot of people on-line have not had the schooling a vet has, yet feel they know more than the vet does.


When I asked the vet, who was going to drain and test an abscess on my goat, whether she didn't want to use gloves, she said people couldn't get CL from goats. I said that yes they could . She paused, turned around and got gloves. And disinfected the floor after she finished.
It is not easily passed but there are enough cases reports to see that a nick on your skin can be infected with CL.


----------



## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Wendy said:


> I didn't read the links, but were these cases confirmed to be transmitted from a goat or sheep with CL? Just curious.


I believe at least 2 of them were 'from livestock'. Other species can get CL as well (horses, cattle, rabbits etc). The one about 10 australians were all people who worked with sheep. It also references 12 more previous cases, all from sheep. And, none had pre-existing conditions/underlying disease. 

I believe other was just talking about it being a causative agent in humans for lymphadenitis, stressing culture for diagnosis of lymphadenitis cases. They are links I'd had full access to as an MSU student but apparently I can't access full text (can't wait till I'm in vet school and can access it!) I would be interested in finding an article that discussed a case of it not being related to animal handling - but I've always found zoonotic potential discussed in the context of animals so I haven't seen anything yet.


----------



## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0002934379903954?cc=y

Here's an interesting one - C. pseudTB caused pneumonia in a vet student.  References previous 4 cases being lymphadenitis cases (4 cases in US? not sure - wish I had access).


----------



## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/2/185.full.pdf

Here's one full article about the 10 new plus 12 'old' cases of human infection. One case had no known contact with farm animals. One case was from drinking raw goat and cow milk (no listed sheep contact).


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> When I asked the vet, who was going to drain and test an abscess on my goat, whether she didn't want to use gloves, she said people couldn't get CL from goats. I said that yes they could . She paused, turned around and got gloves. And disinfected the floor after she finished.
> It is not easily passed but there are enough cases reports to see that a nick on your skin can be infected with CL.


And both of my vets said they drain these all the time & neither uses gloves.

Interesting. I agree, there are enough healthy animals that any with CL should be culled.


----------

