# Catholic Canon law



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P2Y.HTM

I stated a fact of the catholic church to address someone who felt my sister could part take in a Catholic sacraments.

Here is the laws of the church...

Very clear that there is a restriction against allowing just anyone to be anything other than a witness in sacraments. Period 

Falsehood not cool.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Which sacrament and take part how?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

the link .....not I clearly explains.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

I was just curious about the specifics.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

The link is to Canon law...


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Yea I get that... I'll just move along then.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

So what happens then if a non catholic does take communion? No transsubstantiation?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

basketti said:


> So what happens then if a non catholic does take communion?


They burst into flame... I saw it once. Not pretty. :yuck:


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

God deals with it. Not me ....it's in his hands. I have faith and I acknowledge it is up to him.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Because I had it once. My aunts used to drag us off to Mass and I slipped out of the pew with my older cousins and took communion. My aunt was not pleased. We were heathen Methodists and she kept trying to expose us to the "true religion".

I probably have a black mark on my soul now. I wonder if you can get a pass if you're a minor.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

basketti said:


> Because I had it once. My aunts used to drag us off to Mass and I slipped out of the pew with my older cousins and took communion. My aunt was not pleased. We were heathen Methodists and she kept trying to expose us to the "true religion".
> 
> I probably have a black mark on my soul now. I wonder if you can get a pass if you're a minor.


Better a black smudge on your soul than bursting into flame.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

There is a place in down east that will sell you broken communion wafers.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

wr said:


> There is a place in down east that will sell you broken communion wafers.


And... duh.what on earth has that have to do with the sacraments?.
I used to bake the bread for communion.... it was the same as what the nuns and guest ate ....shocking not every guest of the nuns were even Christians.

There is a reason there is no issue.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I think she meant that you could try some without chancing bursting into flame. I could be wrong tho and there is some casserole or something you make out of them.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

It is for God to deal with, he will give justice to his children.

His superiority and grace to moderate the hearts of all with integrity of the heavens and the stars is his. He does not set baited snares we fail on our own.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

What a friendly discussion. No mocking whatsoever.

:facepalm:


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Txsteader said:


> What a friendly discussion. No mocking whatsoever.
> 
> :facepalm:


Nor sarcasm or facetiousness. :thumb:


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Before this whole topic goes down the toilet I think some clarification is required since Kas is witholding information about the conversation we had, including witholding that no mention was made about Catholic church or Catholic Canon law and sacraments. The brief conversation as follows, starting at post 716 - http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/general-chat/541161-wow-what-difference-few-months-make-18.html :



> Posted by *kasilofhome*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


> Posted by Fennick:
> 
> _I think that's a somewhat different situation. You're talking about her being rejected by the fellowship, not rejected by the god._
> 
> ...





> Posted by Kasilofhome:
> 
> _Sis, could not meet the standards....she had no parish to back up her faithful attendance...(guess not going to church any where caused that)... thus when she requested to be godmother..brother knew he did not even hurt her feelings ...sent her the forms and she could not find a priest to lie... end of story._
> 
> ...





> Posted by Fennick:
> 
> _I don't think much of that religion then. It sounds like some kind of elite cult. Your sister is probably better off not involved with something as discriminatory as that one. She needs to find a more welcoming religion and church if it's truly god, religion and fellowship she wants and not just acceptance as a godmother or to get married in a church. There's nothing stopping her from worshipping their god on her own though, if that's what she really wants._
> 
> _If your brother wants her appointed as a familial sponsor or guardian for his children he can arrange that legally outside of his church, she doesn't have to be a church approved godmother to legally be an appointed sponsor or guardian. _


Since Kas is now stating that she was talking about the Catholic church I'll give one example of what I'm getting at about people being free to worship and practise whatever god(s) they please without having to be a member of the religion or the church of that religion: 

I'm not Catholic but I'd like to know who is going to be able stop me from worshipping the Catholic dieties if that was what I wanted to do? And who is going to stop me from telling my beads on my beautiful rosary that I've had since early childhood? Who will stop me from loving and admiring this Pope as I do? Who will turn me away from the door if I want to go to Mass on Christmas Eve? Who will stop me from making confession? Who can stop me from making the wine and the wafer, blessing them myself in the name of God and consuming them as the blood and body of Christ? Nobody. I don't need permission from the Catholic church or the congregation to practise their faith and perform their sacraments for myself on my own.

But from the sounds of things I don't think the sister wanted to be a Catholic and go to church or worship the Catholic dieties. She just wanted to be a godmother to her brother's children, so it's all a moot point.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

You are as every one is free to run your life as you choose... in as much as you and everyone has those rights each must understand and accept that freedoms and rights end at ones nose
In as much as playing with dolls does not equal raising a child... but if you think so fine.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

That is very true, Fennick. I do know several devout Catholics who essentially left the church to practice their faith on their own because of their sincere disgust and dismay of the handling of the molesting priests by the church.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Fennick said:


> Before this whole topic goes down the toilet I think some clarification is required since Kas is witholding information about the conversation we had, including witholding that no mention was made about Catholic church or Catholic Canon law and sacraments. The brief conversation as follows, starting at post 716 -
> 
> Since Kas is now stating that she was talking about the Catholic church I'll give one example of what I'm getting at about people being free to worship and practise whatever god(s) they please without having to be a member of the religion or the church of that religion:
> 
> ...


I'm not christian and I've been to more masses over the last 33 years than many practicing catholics. No one ever kicked me out or even looked at me funny.

There were several of my husband's family members that left the church because of the pedophile priest scandals.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

basketti said:


> That is very true, Fennick. I do know several devout Catholics who essentially left the church to practice their faith on their own because of their sincere disgust and dismay of the handling of the molesting priests by the church.


Well I understand that. I don't want to get into a finger-pointing thing about the Catholic church and molestors because there are plenty of other Christian denominations and other religions where that kind of thing and worse has happened too.

But people being disappointed with or not exactly agreeing with the religion they grew up in and leaving it, branching out on their own ..... that's why there are so many different religions now, and over 20,000 Christian denominations around the world. Anyone can start their own religion and worship any god they want. People create their own gods if they can't borrow somebody else's gods.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Fenwick.... that is a perfect reason why freedom is great.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

basketti said:


> Nor sarcasm or facetiousness. :thumb:


Sarcasm? Definitely.

Facetiousness? Not at all.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Txsteader said:


> Sarcasm? Definitely.
> 
> Facetiousness? Not at all.


Well you've got me there. It definitely wasn't witty enough to be facetious but it was sneering and derisive enough to be sarcastic. Good job. 

Also, pot...meet kettle.


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## tiffnzacsmom (Jan 26, 2006)

Your sister could be a Christian Witness to the children. When I attended mass not a single one of my relatives could qualify as godparents. They didn't get upset or try to get a priest to lie, I just got a friend to do it. They only need one.


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## mrsgcpete (Sep 16, 2012)

all three of my children were baptized in the catholic church (at two different parishes) and all three of my children have a god parent that is not catholic, usually he was holding them during the baptism so the priest was well aware,. I have also been to Catholic masses where non Catholics were allowed to take communion. 

Canon law says a lot of interesting things, like the bible it is subject to interpretation. it all depends on how you want to use it.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Read Canon law one female one male and at least one catholic in good standing having been confirmed.. min.

Making one God parent and one witness

I did not write it....


Many may think they are God parent.... but they are witness.... and why rock their boats.... during the event....they stay in the dark and everyone is happy.

And since there is no crime in calling someone a God parent... well.....peace in the family


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

mrsgcpete said:


> all three of my children were baptized in the catholic church (at two different parishes) and all three of my children have a god parent that is not catholic, usually he was holding them during the baptism so the priest was well aware,. I have also been to Catholic masses where non Catholics were allowed to take communion.
> 
> Canon law says a lot of interesting things, like the bible it is subject to interpretation. it all depends on how you want to use it.



Yes, I am godmother to my niece who was baptized Catholic.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Funny, the people that scream about people shoving religion down their throats are starting to show up in religious themed threads. Wonder what will happen next...


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## mrsgcpete (Sep 16, 2012)

Shine said:


> Funny, the people that scream about people shoving religion down their throats are starting to show up in religious themed threads. Wonder what will happen next...


i dont have a problem with religion i have a problem with zealots who use religion to make other people feel less than. i spent 33 years in the catholic church and 12 years in catholic school. i can tell you all about it.


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## mrsgcpete (Sep 16, 2012)

kasilofhome said:


> Read Canon law one female one male and at least one catholic in good standing having been confirmed.. min.
> 
> Making one God parent and one witness
> 
> I did not write it....


at their baptisms both were acknowledged as the God Parents.

you dont have to write it to use it against people. i always love the in good standing part, so as long as the guy in our parish went to confession each time he raped his daughters he was in good standing? the church may think so but i doubt that Jesus would have agreed.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

kasilofhome said:


> Read Canon law one female one male and at least one catholic in good standing having been confirmed.. min.
> 
> Making one God parent and one witness
> 
> ...


False. My grandson has two godmothers- my youngest daughter and my oldest daughter's best friend. My daughter is confirmed, the friend is not catholic. My husband's uncle is a deacon and he performed the christening.

Both godmothers were acknowledged as godparents at the ceremony as well, mrsgcpete.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Facts are hard on some..... should I just just lie to make people live ignorant in them spouting falsehoods as facts...nope... it amazes me that those so against a faith want to be the authorities.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> False. My grandson has two godmothers- my youngest daughter and my oldest daughter's best friend. My daughter is confirmed, the friend is not catholic. My husband's uncle is a deacon and he performed the christening.
> 
> Both godmothers were acknowledged as godparents at the ceremony as well, mrsgcpete.


Yea, read Canon law I am laughing so hard..... what does a heathen care so much.... you took the mantle of heathen your self.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> Facts are hard on some..... should I just just lie to make people live ignorant in them spouting falsehoods as facts...nope... it amazes me that those so against a faith want to be the authorities.


I am sorry you are so distressed by this. Not everyone follows the tenets of a religion exactly by the book. Apparently there is some wiggle room.

I'll bet there are tons of Catholics receiving the sacraments who use birth control.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Shine said:


> Funny, the people that scream about people shoving religion down their throats are starting to show up in religious themed threads. Wonder what will happen next...


Just because I don't believe in your god doesn't mean I'm not familiar with religion. I have a family that believes, they happen to be catholic, and I'm well aware of the tenets. 

I don't like being harassed with religion, especially when I asked nicely for it to stop, there is a difference.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

kasilofhome said:


> Yea, read Canon law I am laughing so hard..... what does a heathen care so much.... you took the mantle of heathen your self.


My entire family is catholic, including my son in law and my son in law to be. I'm heathen by choice. 

Are you saying that my grandson doesn't have two godmothers, or that the deacon that christened him didn't know they were both women, or that you just don't know everything about the catholic religion?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

basketti said:


> I am sorry you are so distressed by this. Not everyone follows the tenets of a religion exactly by the book. Apparently there is some wiggle room.
> 
> I'll bet there are tons of Catholics receiving the sacraments who use birth control.


Yes, there are. That's a big no-no too. There are girls on the altar, women doing readings and handing out the host, plus the mass itself is no longer in Latin!


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Fennick said:


> Since Kas is now stating that she was talking about the Catholic church I'll give one example of what I'm getting at about people being free to worship and practise whatever god(s) they please without having to be a member of the religion or the church of that religion:
> *
> I'm not Catholic but I'd like to know who is going to be able stop me from worshipping the Catholic dieties if that was what I wanted to do?
> And who is going to stop me from telling my beads on my beautiful rosary that I've had since early childhood?
> ...





Yep.
When the veil was torn in two from top to bottom at 3 o'clock that afternoon, it signified that all who desire, can come to Him.
No dress code, reservation not required.
:thumb:


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Shine said:


> Funny, the people that scream about people shoving religion down their throats are starting to show up in religious themed threads. Wonder what will happen next...


Discussion about religion is different than being told we must live by the tenets of your religion.

I thought however that all discussions about religion are good discussions because you might win a convert.


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## vicki in NW OH (May 10, 2002)

I just asked my son (seminarian) the godparent question. There can be a godmother and godfather or 2 godmothers, 2 godfathers. There can also be a single godmother or a single godfather. Only one godparent is needed. A Christian from another denomination can be a witness, not a godparent. In the case of 2 godmothers or 2 godfathers, only one will be listed on the records. A noncatholic witness is not listed.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Discussion about religion is different than being told we must live by the tenets of your religion.
> 
> I thought however that all discussions about religion are good discussions because you might win a convert.


False.... freedom one has to choose. 
False..... no one is force to live by the tenants of any faith BUT outsiders cannot attempt to alter the tenets of any faith.

That includes assuming to be an authority capable of instructing the tenants.... anyone can and is free to read up on the factual tenants if the wish.

Freedom of religion does not mean those of faith must be silent and hide their faith.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

kasilofhome said:


> False.... freedom one has to choose.
> False..... no one is force to live by the tenants of any faith BUT outsiders cannot attempt to alter the tenets of any faith.
> 
> *That includes assuming to be an authority capable of instructing the tenants.... *anyone can and is free to read up on the factual tenants if the wish.
> ...


Are you including yourself in this or just other people? I'm curious.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

kasilofhome said:


> Read Canon law one female one male and at least one catholic in good standing having been confirmed.. min.
> 
> Making one God parent and one witness
> 
> ...


Why rock their boats? Are you serious? Let someone stay in the dark and continue to be deceived and believe a lie? That is not a little white lie. Do you really condone that kind of deception of good hearted people? 

That's one of the dirtiest, most dishonest stunts I've ever heard of anyone pulling on another person. How can anyone of good conscience deceive another person and let them believe they have been honoured and taking on the responsibility of being a godparent when it is a falsehood?

And you condone this kind of falsehood?!? Didn't you say in post #1 here "Falsehood not cool"? This example you've given is definitely a falsehood not cool.

Being a godparent is something that some people take very seriously and invest a lot of their money, time, responsibility and effort in the child they're being godparent to. If somebody pulled a filthy lying trick like that on me I'd disown them and their kids and never speak to them again.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Fennick said:


> Why rock their boats? Are you serious? Let someone stay in the dark and continue to be deceived and believe a lie? That is not a little white lie. Do you really condone that kind of deception of good hearted people?
> 
> That's one of the dirtiest, most dishonest stunts I've ever heard of anyone pulling on another person. How can anyone of good conscience deceive another person and let them believe they have been honoured and taking on the responsibility of being a godparent when it is a falsehood?
> 
> ...


Both of grandchildren's godparents were referred to as godparents during the ceremony, Fennick. It's an internal working of the church thing, apparently on the paperwork it indicates that the nonconfirmed/noncatholic godparent is a witness. 

I agree that making someone think they are a godparent when they aren't is absolutely wrong. Lying to a priest is wrong too. 

If it's anything like when I got married in the church they check on that stuff anyway. I was married (it lasted 6 months) but a Justice performed the ceremony so there was no problem with a catholic wedding.


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## Marshloft (Mar 24, 2008)

Sure glad I'm a protestant, I don't have to learn and adhere to all that stuff.
God bless those who can do it tho.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Discussion about religion is different than being told we must live by the tenets of your religion.
> 
> I thought however that all discussions about religion are good discussions because you might win a convert.


Really, I do not remember anyone telling you that you must do anything with regards to any religion that I can think of, I could be wrong though, its happened before...

No you misunderstand my intention, you are certainly welcome here as are anyone that wishes to visit the thread, just thought it was funny...


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Fennick said:


> Why rock their boats? Are you serious? Let someone stay in the dark and continue to be deceived and believe a lie? That is not a little white lie. Do you really condone that kind of deception of good hearted people?
> 
> That's one of the dirtiest, most dishonest stunts I've ever heard of anyone pulling on another person. How can anyone of good conscience deceive another person and let them believe they have been honoured and taking on the
> 
> ...


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> Both of grandchildren's godparents were referred to as godparents during the ceremony, Fennick. It's an internal working of the church thing, apparently on the paperwork it indicates that the nonconfirmed/noncatholic godparent is a witness.
> 
> I agree that making someone think they are a godparent when they aren't is absolutely wrong. Lying to a priest is wrong too.
> 
> If it's anything like when I got married in the church they check on that stuff anyway. I was married (it lasted 6 months) but a Justice performed the ceremony so there was no problem with a catholic wedding.




Yea, I will get my catholic facts from a self proclaimed heathen.
Well, my sister thought she could..... didn't work.... and bro didn't have to face the red headed temper tantrum focused at him by denying her....we just smiled and let her try.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> Yea, I will get my catholic facts from a self proclaimed heathen.
> Well, my sister thought she could..... didn't work.... and bro didn't have to face the red headed temper tantrum focused at him by denying her....we just smiled and let her try.


I kind of get the sense that you don't much like your sister.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

I'm an atheist (was never a Catholic) Godparent to a Catholic baptized child. No one seemed to care.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Or witness.... see vicki' post and read the link


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

kasilofhome said:


> Or witness.... see vicki' post and read the link


That's not what anyone called it, including the priest.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

It's not like they make witness wear red letter W. It is far from uncommon to have a witness....since witness are witness because they are not of the faith or have not stayed in the faith..... they do not have a clue.... shocking hum...

See, no bell rings if a non believer enters a church. It's really no big deal and all are welcomed but..... where would the logic be to entrust a non believer with the vow.... to raise the child to the catholic faith when a non believer or fallen catholic was against the catholic church....


The purpose of godparents is to ensure the future catholic instruction and walk in the faith of a child during their formative years.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

kasilofhome said:


> It's not like they make witness wear red letter W. It is far from uncommon to have a witness....since witness are witness because they are not of the faith or have not stayed in the faith..... they do not have a clue.... shocking hum...
> 
> See, no bell rings if a non believer enters a church. It's really no big deal and all are welcomed but..... where would the logic be to entrust a non believer with the vow.... to raise the child to the catholic faith when a non believer or fallen catholic was against the catholic church....
> 
> ...




After looking up the origin of it, it seems that definition is correct.

Silly me, all these years I thought godparents were chosen to ensure that the child was taken care of, should something ever happen to the natural parents.
That seemed logical to me, along with the fulfillment of the charge given to the church - to care for widows and orphans.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

kasilofhome said:


> False.... freedom one has to choose.
> False..... no one is force to live by the tenants of any faith BUT outsiders cannot attempt to alter the tenets of any faith.
> 
> That includes assuming to be an authority capable of instructing the tenants.... anyone can and is free to read up on the factual tenants if the wish.
> ...





Irish Pixie said:


> Are you including yourself in this or just other people? I'm curious.


I noticed you never answered my question. Are you including yourself in this?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> After looking up the origin of it, it seems that definition is correct.
> 
> Silly me, all these years I thought godparents were chosen to ensure that the child was taken care of, should something ever happen to the natural parents.
> That seemed logical to me, along with the fulfillment of the charge given to the church - to care for widows and orphans.


Godparent means different things to different people and different cultures. Most religous ceremonies that bestow the title do include a charge that guidance in that religion and education about it are a main duty. Some religous traditions take this charge more seriously than others as do some parents and godparents. What it means otherwise is between the parents and those they choose. As with many things it has evolved into something more ceremonial than legally binding.

All that being said this thread started with the OP claiming another poster issued a falsehood. A claim that seems to have been disproven. The OP then has gone on to show how she mislead her own sister. To me an honest approach would have been to tell a prospective godparent that while she could only be a witness in the church's eyes she would be a godparent in my eyes. Whether the deception was practiced to "protect" the sister's feelings or to keep some harmony in the family it was deception. How the OP reconciles this deception and the case of falsely accusing another of deception( something she's done before in these pages) is between her and her god. I would counsel her to look within before lashing outward, again.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

kasilofhome said:


> It's not like they make witness wear red letter W. It is far from uncommon to have a witness....since witness are witness because they are not of the faith or have not stayed in the faith..... they do not have a clue.... shocking hum...
> 
> See, no bell rings if a non believer enters a church. It's really no big deal and all are welcomed but..... where would the logic be to entrust a non believer with the vow.... to raise the child to the catholic faith when a non believer or fallen catholic was against the catholic church....
> 
> ...


IDK, I'm just relaying what I remember. I was asked to be the Godmother, at the church the priest referred to me as the Godmother. I don't recall what it said on any paperwork I signed..it was along time ago.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Shine said:


> Really, I do not remember anyone telling you that you must do anything with regards to any religion that I can think of, I could be wrong though, its happened before...
> 
> No you misunderstand my intention, you are certainly welcome here as are anyone that wishes to visit the thread, just thought it was funny...


Not to worry, Shine, some like to make stuff up, be offended where there was no offense.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Well, surprise when you don't read the bill but you sign it..Guess what..
Don't blame the church.... you agreed to something and the church lower yourobligation cause if you personally can't be a Catholic God parent you are a witness...


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> Well, surprise when you don't read the bill but you sign it..Guess what..
> Don't blame the church.... you agreed to something and the church lower yourobligation cause if you personally can't be a Catholic God parent you are a witness...


So you're saying not to believe the priests...they'd just lie to shut people up?
Sounds like you're comparing them to used car salesmen.


Of course...they could actually know more than you do about the ins and outs of catholic law. Having gone to priest school and all. Kind of like saying you know as much as a lawyer because you read the statute on Google.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

There seems to be no mention or definition of "godparents" in the bible. No outlining of the rules, standards or requirements for being one. God didn't seem to think it a matter of any importance when he wrote his rules. Why all the concern now. Are you really following your god's laws in this matter or the laws of the men, long ago, who wrote rules to control behavior and ensure their continued power?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> There seems to be no mention or definition of "godparents" in the bible. No outlining of the rules, standards or requirements for being one. God didn't seem to think it a matter of any importance when he wrote his rules. Why all the concern now. Are you really following your god's laws in this matter or the laws of the men, long ago, who wrote rules to control behavior and ensure their continued power?



Interesting.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Tricky Grama said:


> Not to worry, Shine, some like to make stuff up, be offended where there was no offense.


Pot calling the kettle black? :hysterical:


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> There seems to be no mention or definition of "godparents" in the bible. No outlining of the rules, standards or requirements for being one. God didn't seem to think it a matter of any importance when he wrote his rules. Why all the concern now. Are you really following your god's laws in this matter or the laws of the men, long ago, who wrote rules to control behavior and ensure their continued power?


Actually, the op is about 'canon law'.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> Actually, the op is about 'canon law'.


Actually, it's about canon law specifically in regard to sponsorship of children. That's godparenting. Try to keep up.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> There seems to be no mention or definition of "godparents" in the bible. No outlining of the rules, standards or requirements for being one. God didn't seem to think it a matter of any importance when he wrote his rules. Why all the concern now. Are you really following your god's laws in this matter or the laws of the men, long ago, who wrote rules to control behavior and ensure their continued power?


I have found that once anyone tosses the Bible and embraces man imposed doctrine , confusion arises . Especially if you don't keep up with the every changing secret hand shakes :thumb: There are many religious establishments that promote their corrupted doctrine for ,money and fame :thumb:

22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Glad I can just talk to God and not deal with all this religious crap.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

kasilofhome said:


> Well, surprise when you don't read the bill but you sign it..Guess what..
> Don't blame the church.... you agreed to something and the church lower yourobligation cause if you personally can't be a Catholic God parent you are a witness...


I'm not blaming anyone, it makes no difference to me in the least.

I was simply relaying my experience that the priest, in the church, referred to me as the Godmother, not a witness. 

Either way, like I said, it makes no difference to me.. if I'm ever needed to help take care of Sophia I will do so.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Pot calling the kettle black? :hysterical:


Instead of being snide, snarky, maybe you could quote where I was offended where there was no reason? 
Could you?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

This thread was to simple correct fennicks false statement made in post 175 of the where are we now Thread. It was stated that a non members could partake in any practice of any religion.... totally false...

You can OFTEN witness or observe .....but faiths do have the right to say NO.

It can be a firm no ....or a soft no but each religion can set standards.

It is logical to set some limits in order to have orderly consistency in some area and less important areas more flexibility..

Remember, the respect shown from the church to person not of the faith that were allowed , not rejected ...to witness .... So delicately that you never knew you were a witness not a recorded person to raise a child on to the path of a devote Catholic.

Yet, with such respect show to those not of the faith some ...they feel tricked.

My sister would not settle to be just a witness.. having had cataclysm class she knew the difference... and wanted what she could not have, what my brother could not offer. Her wanting what she gave up ----her ability to status to qualify ---is on her.... no one else. As a family we just saw a stubborn, red head, in a melt down who was not going to get what she wanted. Ps. She was not even asked by the parents (for him to ask he would have place the burden on her to return to being a practicing Catholic) she claimed her desire for the title yet she would never accept the responsibility show the need raise. It all worked out for the best....


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> There seems to be no mention or definition of "godparents" in the bible. No outlining of the rules, standards or requirements for being one. God didn't seem to think it a matter of any importance when he wrote his rules. Why all the concern now. Are you really following your god's laws in this matter or the laws of the men, long ago, who wrote rules to control behavior and ensure their continued power?


When you state "why all the concern now" are you speaking of 2015.... or when Canon law was written? Or why I post... if it is due to why I started this. It was Fennick (locked thread where are we now post 715) was incorrect....but leading people to believe that anyone can at any time can partake in all practices in a faith ...was so, off base it needed to be address and knowing Canon law dealing with godparents was a great example of religions ability to control their faith and with out bowing to whom and fancies of the outsider


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Tricky Grama said:


> Instead of being snide, snarky, maybe you could quote where I was offended where there was no reason?
> Could you?


I can.  Not offended, the make stuff up part.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

kasilofhome said:


> When you state "why all the concern now" are you speaking of 2015.... or when Canon law was written? Or why I post... if it is due to why I started this. It was Fennick (locked thread where are we now post 715) was incorrect....but leading people to believe that anyone can at any time can partake in all practices in a faith ...was so, off base it needed to be address and knowing Canon law dealing with godparents was a great example of religions ability to control their faith and with out bowing to whom and fancies of the outsider


Well while on such subjects there are many so called churches where Jesus or none of the twelve could partake of Communion ,they would pass them by like they had leprosy :thumb:


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## mrsgcpete (Sep 16, 2012)

its seems like the op is about drawing lines in the sand where there arent necessarily lines. my lifelong experience in the catholic church, is not negated by canon law. Some times the local leadership of a religion realizes that common sense needs to be chosen over legalism. and that having two people that love a child stand up for the child as god parents is better than finding two people who can follow the rules. they arent lying to the people standing in front of them, they just are doing whats in the best interest of the child..... as my husband says. all of our favorite priests had some aspect of their life that grounded them in the reality of every day life. military service, recovered from alcoholism, major injury.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

You opinion is valid as your opinion only.
As is my view. Canon law is not my drawing lines.... just knowing and accepting the line is draw.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> Godparent means different things to different people and different cultures. Most religous ceremonies that bestow the title do include a charge that guidance in that religion and education about it are a main duty. Some religous traditions take this charge more seriously than others as do some parents and godparents. What it means otherwise is between the parents and those they choose. As with many things it has evolved into something more ceremonial than legally binding.


Yep.
I realized that when I looked at the definition, I learned something new, lol.
Growing up, I knew kids that had godparents and heard adults discussing things like, "In case something happens to us, at least Mr. & Mrs.______, will look after our kids."
In a few cases, there was good reason to make that provision, but peace of mind was important and so was the responsibility of the ones chosen.




mmoetc said:


> All that being said this thread started with the OP claiming another poster issued a falsehood. A claim that seems to have been disproven. The OP then has gone on to show how she mislead her own sister. To me an honest approach would have been to tell a prospective godparent that while she could only be a witness in the church's eyes she would be a godparent in my eyes. Whether the deception was practiced to "protect" the sister's feelings or to keep some harmony in the family it was deception. How the OP reconciles this deception and the case of falsely accusing another of deception( something she's done before in these pages) is between her and her god. I would counsel her to look within before lashing outward, again.


I would agree, that's something each of us have to deal with.
In this case, my opinion matters little, as I haven't chosen to follow Catholicism.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

How could it be a deception.. sis new she left the church
Sis knew that barred her
It was not her right to dictate who would be a God mother...nor mine.
She was told of the facts.. She flue off the handle.. bro just left it in God's hand and guess what... no go.

If non Catholics do not know it not on me... heck.... I never wrote the canon laws...
It is certainly not my place to chase down every non qualified person and tell them... guess what you're only a witness...

A Catholic God parent does carry specific duties... 

Here are the duties
http://www.solemncharge.com/post/20...responsibilities-of-a-Catholic-Godparent.aspx

And more information on role and just what requires, bars, and doesn't mean
http://www.catholicdoors.com/courses/godpar.htm


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

basketti said:


> So you're saying not to believe the priests...they'd just lie to shut people up?
> Sounds like you're comparing them to used car salesmen.
> 
> 
> Of course...they could actually know more than you do about the ins and outs of catholic law. Having gone to priest school and all. Kind of like saying you know as much as a lawyer because you read the statute on Google.




No, people hear what they want and a person ignorant of the faith or has forgotten their faith fails to know. It is the duty of the parents to select and a clue would be to listen to the priest as to what is going on.... It is not really hidden.... clue... is when you are told to pledge that you are able and will to raise the child following the Catholic church.

Kinda funny that it seems some were not listening ... really it quite sad not funny as it is a sacrament.

Oh deary a mom of a soon to be priest.... checked this out with her son who is studying. Talk about missing what is right in front of a person see just what Vickie posted after checking with her son..So, as I have directed people to the canon law... and repeated that I did not write it. It is pretty clear that many should not need interpretation to understand... though comprehension may vary...

Shoot the messenger does not change the facts.


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## mrsgcpete (Sep 16, 2012)

kasilofhome said:


> How could it be a deception.. sis new she left the church
> Sis knew that barred her
> It was not her right to dictate who would be a God mother...nor mine.
> She was told of the facts.. She flue off the handle.. bro just left it in God's hand and guess what... no go.
> ...


 your brother didnt leave it in God's hands he left it in a mortal priest's hands. you keep saying its God's will but you are referring to a set of laws that are neither infallible nor divinely inspired.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

To the OP- you state that outside people can't do certain things in your religion. Some of those people have stated here that they did indeed do those things proving your premise false. Furthermore they seem to have done these things without penalty or repercussions, often with the cooperation of the very authorities you claim would stop them. You said your sister took part in a christening ceremony and considered herself a godparent, though you say she was just a witness. Once again, this seemed to happen without adverse consequences to those involved. Fennick's contention, if I may, was that people are free to worship as they please, even co-opting ceremonies and participating where and when they wish. You've shown nothing to prove they can't. Just as traffic law says people can't speed they do so everyday. Perhaps your church operates differently than any I've been in and requires proof of membership before worship services or ceremonies, but you haven't shown that to be true. Fennick told no falsehood.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> To the OP- you state that outside people can't do certain things in your religion. Some of those people have stated here that they did indeed do those things proving your premise false. Furthermore they seem to have done these things without penalty or repercussions, often with the cooperation of the very authorities you claim would stop them. You said your sister took part in a christening ceremony and considered herself a godparent, though you say she was just a witness. Once again, this seemed to happen without adverse consequences to those involved. Fennick's contention, if I may, was that people are free to worship as they please, even co-opting ceremonies and participating where and when they wish. You've shown nothing to prove they can't. Just as traffic law says people can't speed they do so everyday. Perhaps your church operates differently than any I've been in and requires proof of membership before worship services or ceremonies, but you haven't shown that to be true. Fennick told no falsehood.


Well one of us sure missed something somewhere .Sure everyone can worship as they please out side of a domination . But in most cases demolitions have laws pertaining to most everything under the sun . Most are good at a little deception to keep the sheep happy . See post#75 for reference and clarification on denominations :hammer:


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Well one of us sure missed something somewhere .Sure everyone can worship as they please out side of a domination . But in most cases demolitions have laws pertaining to most everything under the sun . Most are good at a little deception to keep the sheep happy . See post#75 for reference and clarification on denominations :hammer:


But what's the penalty for a non catholic to take communion in a Catholic Church? Who's checking eligabilty? Does god really care? What if you don't say the prayer exactly as prescribed? Will god not listen if the words aren't said exactly as man has written? The contention was that people can't do as they wish. Sure they can.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> To the OP- you state that outside people can't do certain things in your religion. Some of those people have stated here that they did indeed do those things proving your premise false. Furthermore they seem to have done these things without penalty or repercussions, often with the cooperation of the very authorities you claim would stop them. You said your sister took part in a christening ceremony and considered herself a godparent, though you say she was just a witness. Once again, this seemed to happen without adverse consequences to those involved. Fennick's contention, if I may, was that people are free to worship as they please, even co-opting ceremonies and participating where and when they wish. You've shown nothing to prove they can't. Just as traffic law says people can't speed they do so everyday. Perhaps your church operates differently than any I've been in and requires proof of membership before worship services or ceremonies, but you haven't shown that to be true. Fennick told no falsehood.


False... I present the Canon law... backing me... they present hearsay on the internet...

My sis ...as I wrote wanted yet... was never ask to be God mother.. brother informed her... She did not buy it that she couldn't skirt the canon law... he
gave her the paperwork for a true potential God parent to take to their priest to validate they potential godparents is in good standing with a church... her not attending church made it impossible for her to get the validation to be a God mother... not settling to be witness she did not show... went on vacation... So thus you have shown what I write is twisted as never did I say sis was a part of the sacrament of baptism.. ... bad comprehension on your part..

No, I am showing and have shown that just cause someone believes they are a God parent...surprise your a witness.

So, Fenwick and those lapses in the church are ignorant... as non Catholics can be witness only ..

This bothers you...I do not know your faith but your lack of knowledge of a Catholicism seems to rule that out that you are a practicing Catholic. So, why does it matter to you. It mattered to me because persons with little or no knowledge of it are giving false information about my faith.. whether you care for my faith is not my concern but at least if Canon law is presented please put that on a higher level of factual information than person who are not current Catholics.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> But what's the penalty for a non catholic to take communion in a Catholic Church? Who's checking eligabilty? Does god really care? What if you don't say the prayer exactly as prescribed? Will god not listen if the words aren't said exactly as man has written? The contention was that people can't do as they wish. Sure they can.


Already answered in this thread..

It is for God to handle not man.... as it is on the honor system.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> But what's the penalty for a non catholic to take communion in a Catholic Church? Who's checking eligabilty? Does god really care? What if you don't say the prayer exactly as prescribed? Will god not listen if the words aren't said exactly as man has written? The contention was that people can't do as they wish. Sure they can.


Might pull it off in a big group .:thumb: But in this area with the smaller groups ,where everyone knows everyone they would pass you by in a rush ,or call a meeting to toss you out .Lots of the places are now more like private clubs ,where God is the only one not invited .

I think if most people cared what God cared about they wouldn't darken the door of a lot of these places ,called houses of worship in the first place .

With our particular worship group ,when communion is presented all are told to examine their self ,that is is entirely between them and God ,not the group or the preacher .If it was presented any other way I would not be there :thumb:


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Saw... that is just how every Catholic church has done it... and it is a part of cataclysm class... to examine your heart.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

mmoetc said:


> But what's the penalty for a non catholic to take communion in a Catholic Church? Who's checking eligabilty? Does god really care? What if you don't say the prayer exactly as prescribed? Will god not listen if the words aren't said exactly as man has written? The contention was that people can't do as they wish. Sure they can.



It happens all the time. Folks attend weddings and funerals and assume that because everyone around them is taking communion, they should too and walk right up.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

mrsgcpete said:


> your brother didnt leave it in God's hands he left it in a mortal priest's hands. you keep saying its God's will but you are referring to a set of laws that are neither infallible nor divinely inspired.


No, God's hand as he had faith that no priest would lie for her... no priest lied for her.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

wr said:


> It happens all the time. Folks attend weddings and funerals and assume that because everyone around them is taking communion, they should too and walk right up.


So, as a believer I have faith in God's judgment..and mercy and grace...It seems as those not practicing Catholics are far more interested in punishment and reactions...

If one is to judge their heart and add in communion is a time of self reflection.. kinds silly to think that someone following is going to be concerned with who's getting the cookie.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

*********************


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

No, it's another Catholic secret


Due to changes by the above poster deleting their comment this post will make no sense


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

basketti said:


> *********************


Rose Mary woods


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> Rose Mary woods


Norwegian wood..



It really does bug you when someone deletes a post doesn't it?

Well I put my magic decoder ring on and realized that you meant catechism, not cataclysm. Probably would have puzzled it out sooner but I was still flummoxed by your post on the others thread.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

kasilofhome said:


> Saw... that is just how every Catholic church has done it... and it is a part of cataclysm class... to examine your heart.


Well we don't have any cataclysm classes if they did they would probably toss me out first thing . I'm just a believer an't got no brand ,won't stand for one .There is just to much non Bible being taught now days always has been .Might be one reason the Bible says to study to show your self approved . The Bible forbids the worship of all images .How many worship places are over ran with such things . Also how many pray as Jesus said to pray ? Thing about the Bible it is really simple till man gets hold of it :thumb:


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## mrsgcpete (Sep 16, 2012)

this thread has broken down in to ridiculousness. there are millions of catholics and i was never sworn to keep anything secret so if i had a clue what we were talking about, i would tell everyone else. Jesus accepted the people that love him and so do I.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> Due to changes by the above poster deleting their comment this post will make no sense


Not saying a word...


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

kasilofhome said:


> So, as a believer I have faith in God's judgment..and mercy and grace...It seems as those not practicing Catholics are far more interested in punishment and reactions...
> 
> If one is to judge their heart and add in communion is a time of self reflection.. kinds silly to think that someone following is going to be concerned with who's getting the cookie.


I don't find that it's people interested in punishment or reactions and it's interesting to note that in the church I grew up in, nobody would judge them anyhow.

When a whole congregations kneels, everybody kneels, when they stand, outsiders look for cues and stand as well so they simply assume that when everybody else walks to the altar, they;re expected to do the same. 

It wouldn't be up to me or any of my family that attends to judge what's in the heart of our neighbor so none would judge those that aren't Catholic and mistakenly thought they were expected to take communion. 

I do like those little wafers and have a friend who brings me back a box every time he goes to Montreal.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Still no problems with you eating them ...some brands are bland..I prefer the homemade ones to each their own personal choice


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

kasilofhome said:


> Still no problems with you eating them ...some brands are bland..I prefer the homemade ones to each their own personal choice


I don't know if I've ever had the homemade ones. The ones that are bought in Montreal are technically those that have been broken or damaged in such a way that they aren't suitable for their intended use so the're sold in good sized boxes. 

As a child, I loved the way they dissolved on my tongue and as an adult, I can came to realize you need a fair bit of water if you happen to sit down and eat a box.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

It's simply an unleven bread.. scone like scored to break easily.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

wr said:


> I don't know if I've ever had the homemade ones. The ones that are bought in Montreal are technically those that have been broken or damaged in such a way that they aren't suitable for their intended use so the're sold in good sized boxes.
> 
> As a child, I loved the way they dissolved on my tongue and as an adult, I can came to realize you need a fair bit of water if you happen to sit down and eat a box.


Wine might be more appropriate. :thumb:


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Water work too.... to be biblical.....but then you need God.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

kasilofhome said:


> False... I present the Canon law... backing me... they present hearsay on the internet...
> 
> My sis ...as I wrote wanted yet... was never ask to be God mother.. brother informed her... She did not buy it that she couldn't skirt the canon law... he
> gave her the paperwork for a true potential God parent to take to their priest to validate they potential godparents is in good standing with a church... her not attending church made it impossible for her to get the validation to be a God mother... not settling to be witness she did not show... went on vacation... So thus you have shown what I write is twisted as never did I say sis was a part of the sacrament of baptism.. ... bad comprehension on your part..
> ...


Canon law forbids it, it doesn't prove it doesn't happen. We either trust the here say of others to be accurate or we discount it all, including yours. If no one can be believed no discussion can occur. Laws forbid many things that people do each and every day. I'm guessing even you violate some on occasion.

As to god's judgement. My understanding of Christianity is that the central tenet is that one must have a personal relationship with god. If one chooses to exercise that relationship by worshiping or taking communion in a church to which they don't belong it seems to me god might understand. I'm sure he understands less those who would put up arbitrary barriers to that worship and stand between a worshiper and he.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wr said:


> I don't know if I've ever had the homemade ones. The ones that are bought in Montreal are technically those that have been broken or damaged in such a way that they aren't suitable for their intended use so the're sold in good sized boxes.
> 
> As a child, I loved the way they dissolved on my tongue and as an adult, I can came to realize you need a fair bit of water if you happen to sit down and eat a box.


My husband tells a story of him as a young boy- he took communion, went back to his pew, and the host got stuck in the back of his throat. An ancient nun dragged him back to the altar while whacking him on the back, and had him drink nearly a whole glass of wine to dislodge it. He says he still has flashbacks. 

My oldest daughter had the horrendous (to everyone but her father and I) habit of smacking her lips after drinking the wine. I have never seen so many lips thin and eyes harden in my life, but she didn't realize she was doing it. 

The catholic church doesn't keep secrets or they would never allow a heathen in their midst for over 30 years. My family has a horrible catholic church story, it will suffice to say that even before I was a heathen I wasn't a fan.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> Canon law forbids it, it doesn't prove it doesn't happen. We either trust the here say of others to be accurate or we discount it all, including yours. If no one can be believed no discussion can occur. Laws forbid many things that people do each and every day. I'm guessing even you violate some on occasion.
> 
> My reply
> 
> ...




Really... nothing can truly stand in the way of worshiping God... he know it too, thus we all have no excuse. ...


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

mmoetc said:


> To the OP- you state that outside people can't do certain things in your religion. Some of those people have stated here that they did indeed do those things proving your premise false. Furthermore they seem to have done these things without penalty or repercussions, often with the cooperation of the very authorities you claim would stop them. You said your sister took part in a christening ceremony and considered herself a godparent, though you say she was just a witness. Once again, this seemed to happen without adverse consequences to those involved. Fennick's contention, if I may, was that people are free to worship as they please, even co-opting ceremonies and participating where and when they wish. You've shown nothing to prove they can't. Just as traffic law says people can't speed they do so everyday. Perhaps your church operates differently than any I've been in and requires proof of membership before worship services or ceremonies, but you haven't shown that to be true. Fennick told no falsehood.


I can't speak to the intentions of the OP but having been raised for a certain amount of time within the Catholic church, the term godparent has very different connotations than what those outside the church believe and the little parish I was raised in kinda rolled it all together in a non offending way. 

Within the church, a godparent is intended to nurture the child's religious needs and outside the church, godparents play a more traditional role with the intention of physically caring for the child if anything happens to the parents.

Most Catholic churches will only accept practicing Catholics as a godparent for obvious reasons. The parish I was raised in allowed the spiritual godparent and the more practical godparent to be involved in the ceremony but she is correct that the non spiritual godparent would be listed as a witness in church documents. 

Again, as it relates to the little parish I grew up in, we did have outsiders who would simply think they should attend communion and once in a while someone would wander into the sin bin and rather than offend or insult someone, there were instructions printed on the wall. 

Within church protocol, only a practicing Catholic should take communion but I never knew a priest to ask for proof of faith or offend in any way, they were honest about the role of a godparent and they were kind and caring when someone mistakenly ran afoul of the many rules. 

I know of nobody within the parishes I am familiar with that would ever speak unkindly about a lapsed member nor would they express joy that someone's feelings were hurt. 

How Catholic churches interact with outsiders can be quite different and I'm still not sure if it's a reflection of the members or within the diocese or simply an individual thing or perhaps it's just my perception of a different time because it's been decades since I was involved with the church.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

kasilofhome said:


> Really... *nothing can truly stand in the way of worshiping God*... he know it too, thus *we all have no excuse*. ...


That is exactly what *I* was saying and which you twisted into meaning something entirely unrelated and said was a falsehood, and you just had to start this topic to have the last word about it.

What a waste of time occurs when one refuses to pay attention to what is really being said.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Curiously, this verse came to mind amongst all this discussion.........



Hebrews 13:2

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And do not forget kindness to strangers, for by this, some who, while they were unaware, were worthy to receive Angels.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

farmrbrown said:


> Curiously, this verse came to mind amongst all this discussion.........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like that. It brings to mind also the story about the person who hosted and protected strangers not knowing that they _were_ Angels.


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