# health care fines



## Big Dave (Feb 5, 2006)

Not wanting to start a war here but how many can't afford what is being demanded in payment. We would have to pay $415 PER MONTH. $95 for the fine if I am correct.
:shrug:


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Big Dave said:


> Not wanting to start a war here but how many can't afford what is being demanded in payment. We would have to pay $415 PER MONTH. $95 for the fine if I am correct.
> :shrug:





> A fine of between $95 for every adult in your house *or 1% of your income after $10,000, whichever is larger*. So if you're single and you make $50,000, you'd have to pay a $400 fine for not having health insurance. The penalty will increase, though, *to $695 per person or 2.5 percent of household income in 2016 *and then according to a cost-of-living formula for following years.


 So it is not a set amount nor is the fine the same in years to come.
Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/regwatch/h...r-obamacare-individual-mandate-#ixzz2gAYXqFPx


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## DAVID In Wisconsin (Dec 3, 2002)

I've already figured it out and I'll pay the tax not the big increase in premiums.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

As said above, it is a sliding scale based on income and the fine increases to a maximum % of your income, I can't remember exactly, but roughly 2 - 3%.
If you don't pay the fine, the only collection mechanism written into the law is for the IRS to snatch your refund, no garnishment or property seizures, just refunds.
So, adjust your w-4 accordingly and don't have a refund at the end of the year and you can avoid the fine as well.
Just FYI.


There is another way too.
Religious exemption.
I've looked into that and what the IRS and HHS "allow" to be exempted.
Replying to this thread this morning, a light bulb just came on............
All their little rules about established, recognized religions directly violate the First amendment.
I got a feeling when others realize that "Congress shall pass no law establishing a religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", we're going to see this back in the Supreme Court.
If the gov't arbitrarily decides which religions get fined and which don't, they have violated the First amendment.
See ya in court, Hussein!


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

If our goes up much more we'll have to make some serious cutbacks to afford it. Because of our combined medical history and the fact that we own real estate we simply can't afford to be without insurance.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

DAVID In Wisconsin said:


> I've already figured it out and I'll pay the tax not the big increase in premiums.


Your decision shouldn't be based solely on what's least expensive. Keep in mind that there's value in carrying health care insurance, while paying a fine has no value to speak of at all.


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## Big Dave (Feb 5, 2006)

So where does a person go to sign up or whatever to get the insurance.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Big Dave said:


> So where does a person go to sign up or whatever to get the insurance.


You can go to healthcare.gov to learn more, and will eventually talk you to the exchange website for your state. Since you live in Arkansas you can click this link directly.

http://hbe.arkansas.gov/

That should help you a lot, but won't be fully functional until Tuesday.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Fully functional?
Now THAT'S a term subject to interpretation isn't it?
LOL


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

off subject but should hospital prices go down since they will not have non paying customers to cover anymore?


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

haley1 said:


> off subject but should hospital prices go down since they will not have non paying customers to cover anymore?


Don't hold your breath for that one.!:hrm:


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

There will still be millions of people without insurance, as well as millions of illegals. Some of the obamacare plans have pretty large deductible as well, some people won't be able to pay this either. Hospital costs are not going to go down.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

The Oregon website is not even close to being helpful and they are not doing much on it at this time. They interviewed the lady in charge and she was very nonchalant about it, almost like she knew something is up. OH WELL....James


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## gimpyrancher (Jun 6, 2010)

haley1 said:


> off subject but should hospital prices go down since they will not have non paying customers to cover anymore?


Another question might be asked. Since "everyone" with health insurance gets a significant discount on hospital charges and the uninsured have to pay full price for everything, it sounds like the hospital will drop dramatically for the formerly uninsured.

The "not paid" bills are less than you think after you deduct the over charged fees are paid by the uninsured.

Then again, perhaps reality for all isn't really important.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

gimpyrancher said:


> The "not paid" bills are less than you think after you deduct the over charged fees are paid by the uninsured.


What?:hrm:


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## Deacon Mike (May 23, 2007)

Big Dave said:


> Not wanting to start a war here but how many can't afford what is being demanded in payment. We would have to pay $415 PER MONTH. $95 for the fine if I am correct.
> :shrug:



Is that your cost before or after subsidies?


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

haley1 said:


> off subject but should hospital prices go down since they will not have non paying customers to cover anymore?


More dollars chasing the same bag of goods should make prices go up, not down.


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## gimpyrancher (Jun 6, 2010)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> What?:hrm:


I was confused at first also.

All insurance companies get negotiated significant discounts on hospital charges. A wholesale price if you will. The bigger the insurer the bigger the negotiated discounts. Medicare probably get's the lowest charges.

The insured get a negotiated significant discount on all hospital charges.

The non-insured are charged the highest prices available. The uninsured are the only people that are charged the non-discounted charges.

The non-insured also are the majority of the people that are sued for non-payment. Partially because they can't ever pay the balance and a court is the only place they can get the cost reduced.


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## whodunit (Mar 29, 2004)

I have a cousin in CA who works for a school district as a bus driver. Her husband is self-employed, she doesn't carry him on her policy, and he apparently is uninsured. She just got a letter today from her employer stating that her husband will not be eligible to purchase from the exchange and she will have to insure him to the tune of $600 a month or be fined.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

I think a huge majority are just going to pay the fine as it will be cheaper than paying the rates. We absolutely can't afford more than $200 tops for coverage. We just do not make enough money. And telling smoeone to find a better job that makes more money or one that has insurance offered in this day & age is funny. You are darn lucky if you even have a job at all.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

It seems that the cost will vary from state to state and so will the tax credit. That doesn't seem right- your federal income tax depends on where you live?


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

Wendy said:


> I think a huge majority are just going to pay the fine as it will be cheaper than paying the rates. We absolutely can't afford more than $200 tops for coverage. We just do not make enough money. And telling smoeone to find a better job that makes more money or one that has insurance offered in this day & age is funny. You are darn lucky if you even have a job at all.


As my state didn't set up an exchange, the only cost estimates I've been able to gather so far is from the Kaiser Foundation's calculator, but those numbers seem to differ SIGNIFICANTLY from those of most other sources.

Also, I'm still confused about the subsidies. If I understand it correctly, one pays the full monthly premium during the year and then receives the subsidy at tax time. Does that mean that taxable income is reduced by the amount of the subsidy resulting in a bigger refund/less tax due? 

So I get this low ball monthly estimate (via the Kaiser calculator) and it sounds almost doable, but if my assumption above is correct, I won't be able to afford that full monthly premium to get subsidized in the first place!

Bottom line...if I'm right, I'll be in the exact same boat I'm currently in (can't afford insurance), but NOW I'll be penalized for it (have to pay a fine)! And even if I could afford it, I won't be able to even USE it because of the high deductibles!

WHAT A MESS!!!!!

This was THE most ill-conceived, thinly-veiled "thing" that has come out of DC in my memory. Why could they not say "the insurance lobbyists roaming the halls of DC shoved a LOT of money in OUR hip pockets and YOU THE PEOPLE get to pay them back!"? 

Off my soapbox...sorry for the rant.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

hippygirl said:


> Also, I'm still confused about the subsidies. If I understand it correctly, one pays the full monthly premium during the year and then receives the subsidy at tax time. Does that mean that taxable income is reduced by the amount of the subsidy resulting in a bigger refund/less tax due?


You can opt to pay the full amount and apply for tax credit at the end of the year, but most people will assign the tax credit to go directly to the insurance company throughout the year so they only have to pay their part.

I don't believe that insurance premiums have any effect on taxable income at all. You just get a tax credit towards premiums based on your income.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Do not forget to save money for your deductables cause---if you use the insurance that you pay dearly for (or the taxpayers pay for) you still have to pay for the deducable and co-pay--what a mess it will be when that hits the ones counting on no cost.


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## Nate_in_IN (Apr 5, 2013)

hippygirl said:


> As my state didn't set up an exchange, the only cost estimates I've been able to gather so far is from the Kaiser Foundation's calculator, but those numbers seem to differ SIGNIFICANTLY from those of most other sources.
> 
> Also, I'm still confused about the subsidies. If I understand it correctly, one pays the full monthly premium during the year and then receives the subsidy at tax time. Does that mean that taxable income is reduced by the amount of the subsidy resulting in a bigger refund/less tax due?
> 
> ...


My state selected to have the federal gov run our exchange as well. I guess we'll see how that goes. To my knowledge it is not up and running yet.

Watch out for vast differences in prices. Some of this is due to states being able to select different Medicaid options, which impact the amount and level the subsidies kick in. Some states have not made their selection yet, making details of the pricing impossible.

It was my understanding the subsidies would be paid directly to the insurance companies and not be a "rebate" through the tax returns.

As Ms. Pelosi so eloquently phrased it "Let's pass this thing so we can find out what's in it"; there are many areas which lack information and details. Please be careful and cross-check information. The situation is ripe for scammers to take advantage.

Nate


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> Do not forget to save money for your deductables cause---if you use the insurance that you pay dearly for (or the taxpayers pay for) you still have to pay for the deducable and co-pay--what a mess it will be when that hits the ones counting on no cost.


You want it to be totally free?


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

That is what a while lot of those low information voters expect. That is a Fact just like their Obamaphones. Free LOL


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

From want I can tell the part of the insurance paid by the gov't is called a tax rebate but other than being administered by the IRS and being income based, it is not a rebate and has noting to do with taxes. In most cases it is more than the tax people are paying. How our broke gov't can afford to pay $10,000.00 plus a year for insurance for millions of people, I don't know. And many people won't be able to pay the copay so they won't use it or simply won't pay the copay. This is such a mess.


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

The subsidy can be paid directly to the insurer. I have been playing with the various calculators and from what I can see if you have a few children and make an average income, it is not going to cost much at all, probably less than what an office visit costs these days...


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

Melissa said:


> The subsidy can be paid directly to the insurer. I have been playing with the various calculators and from what I can see if you have a few children and make an average income, it is not going to cost much at all, probably less than what an office visit costs these days...


No children here.

Which calculators other than Kaiser are you using? I know tomorrow is "THE DAY", but I'd like to see how actual rates are going to vary (I predict WILDLY!) from the calculators...

Thanks.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

hippygirl said:


> No children here.
> 
> Which calculators other than Kaiser are you using? I know tomorrow is "THE DAY", but I'd like to see how actual rates are going to vary (I predict WILDLY!) from the calculators...
> 
> Thanks.


Your share of the second least expensive silver plan available in your state can be estimated by most any Obamacare calculator. What we can't see until tomorrow is what our share of other plans will be, and what the details of those plans are. All that should be available tomorrow morning.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

I have a SIL that works in the hospital. She said this is a train wreck coming. The majority of the people coming in the ER are Medicaid users. They come in because it is easier than making an appointment at the doctor & having to wait at the doctor's. They will actually tell them this. The hospital here wants to charge a co-pay to those people. Something that would be higher than what an office call would be. She said if they could weed out the people that use the ER like a doctor's office, it would help a lot. The hospital thinks it will only get worse once this passes. She is also afraid that they will turn people away that do not have coverage which includes her, my brother, & their baby. She is only part-time & my brothers employer doesn't offer insurance. 

I really would hate to see anyone turned away because they can't pay. I don't know what would work, but I can't see this working at all. No one even understands it for the most part.

I also see people getting their hours cut just so they fall under the required hours needed to get coverage. This is happening a lot around here. They work you just enough hours to keep you off of the insurance. Can't say I blame them.

Do you thik it will take a few years of this train wreck to show how it's not going to work, before it will be changed to something that might actually have a chance working?


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Where exactly are all these new Dr's going to come from to treat the "newly insured " ? It will take forever to get in to see any Dr and if they aren't happy with their pay what happens then ? they already have BSN.nurses acting as physicians assistants due to the shortage Where are all these people going to get treatment they are now forced to pay for ???????????


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

That's happening here too, Wendy. Companies are cutting hours on many employees so they don't have to mess with ocare. The company my DGS works for, who has had wonderful benefits, is cutting the hours of all employees except the managers and assistant managers. They will get lots of overtime, but that is cheaper than having all the full time people they have now. They have talked to the people that will be working the overtime to be sure they are willing to do it. My DGD will get the overtime and keep his benefits, his wife will go to part time. In their case it will work for them, but many others are being hurt.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Wendy said:


> I have a SIL that works in the hospital. She said this is a train wreck coming. The majority of the people coming in the ER are Medicaid users. They come in because it is easier than making an appointment at the doctor & having to wait at the doctor's. They will actually tell them this. The hospital here wants to charge a co-pay to those people. Something that would be higher than what an office call would be. She said if they could weed out the people that use the ER like a doctor's office, it would help a lot. The hospital thinks it will only get worse once this passes. She is also afraid that they will turn people away that do not have coverage which includes her, my brother, & their baby. She is only part-time & my brothers employer doesn't offer insurance.
> 
> I really would hate to see anyone turned away because they can't pay. I don't know what would work, but I can't see this working at all. No one even understands it for the most part.
> 
> ...


But the thing is that if we drop Obamacare it won't be replaced by anything. I hear republicans saying that it can be fixed in better ways but when it gets right down to it republicans don't believe there is anything wrong with the health care system. They want to keep it just the way it is.

After Clinton tried to pass healthcare during his first term 16 years passed before Obamacare was proposed. During that 16 years no alternate plan was introduced, even though republicans promised a health care fix when democrats agreed to drop Clinton's plan. The fact that republicans didn't propose a health care plan for 16 years demonstrates that they have no intention of replacing Obamacare with anything.

Obamacare isn't set in stone, and it will be modified in the coming years. This is going to be an ongoing work in progress. Republicans will have opportunities to cut benefits, and democrats will have opportunities to add benefits. That's no different than any other large & complex government program.


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

Wendy said:


> I have a SIL that works in the hospital. She said this is a train wreck coming. The majority of the people coming in the ER are Medicaid users. They come in because it is easier than making an appointment at the doctor & having to wait at the doctor's. They will actually tell them this. The hospital here wants to charge a co-pay to those people. Something that would be higher than what an office call would be. She said if they could weed out the people that use the ER like a doctor's office, it would help a lot. The hospital thinks it will only get worse once this passes. She is also afraid that they will turn people away that do not have coverage which includes her, my brother, & their baby. She is only part-time & my brothers employer doesn't offer insurance.


 
I'm not sure.

First there are many who come to the ER because they will be seen even if they have no insurance.

Once these people get insurance under the ACA they may end up going to a doctor instead which may take some pressure off the ER.

Also around here we have primary care clinics and med express and doctors urgen care clinics and getting seen there is much faster than the ER.

I had to take my wife to the ER 2 difft hospitals and we waited six hours before she could be seen. If she could have gone to the local clinic it would have saved time.

Also nobody will not have coverage under the ACA unless they choose to.

I think it's going to be a huge help in my state.


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## marytx (Dec 4, 2002)

gimpyrancher said:


> .
> 
> The non-insured are charged the highest prices available. The uninsured are the only people that are charged the non-discounted charges.
> ..


Not true. My doctor gives me a 30% discount for paying at time of service. Before the big hospital took over my hospital I got a like discount with them.


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## marytx (Dec 4, 2002)

Does anyone know if the 1% individual tax penalty for not complying is based on gross income or taxable income?


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Seems to me that no one has bothered to talk about how bad the Dr and nursing shortage is already ! if you were suddenly made to pay for health care wouldn't you use it as often as possible so much so that even for a common cold you would have Dr's so overwhelmed and back logs of office visits that it could take months to be seen! socialist medicine will not work in America .The average American is too "special" to be willing to wait their turn .


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mary said:


> Not true. My doctor gives me a 30% discount for paying at time of service. Before the big hospital took over my hospital I got a like discount with them.


Yes, my doctor sees me for $60. I understand that's a considerable discount, but I don't recall exactly how large the discount is.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Hollowdweller said:


> I'm not sure.
> 
> First there are many who come to the ER because they will be seen even if they have no insurance.
> 
> ...


 I would not be so quick to think that way at all.
*
Most Popular Question at Healthcare.gov: How to Get Exemption From Lack-of-Coverage Penalty Fee?* 


> One day away from the launch of the Obamacare marketplaces, the question* most on the minds people visiting the Healthcare.gov website is not about coverage, but rather about avoiding the penalty, or tax, for not having health insurance*. As of Monday morning, here is how the website listed its "Most Popular" items:
> As the website explains, the fee (tax) in 2014 is 1 percent of annual income or $95 per person, whichever is higher. The fee increases each year. By 2016 it increases to 2.5 percent of income or $695 per person, whichever is higher.


http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/most-popular-question-healthcaregov-how-get-exemption-lack-coverage-penalty-fee_757361.html


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## Homesteader (Jul 13, 2002)

mary said:


> Not true. My doctor gives me a 30% discount for paying at time of service. Before the big hospital took over my hospital I got a like discount with them.


I am glad you were able to receive that discount but please, this is a big country. That does not happen everwhere.

I had shoulder surgery done and went very carefully over the numbers. They had it all sorted out, what it would cost if I had no insurance vs. with insurance. Oh sure, they had payment plans for me to pay them if I had no ins. (I did have ins.), but I would have had to decline the surgery that's for sure.

The healthcare across our country is not a one-size-fits all. My DH and I have not been able to get a cash-pay discount for any health services for over 17 years now.


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## marytx (Dec 4, 2002)

Homesteader said:


> I am glad you were able to receive that discount but please, this is a big country. That does not happen everwhere.
> 
> I had shoulder surgery done and went very carefully over the numbers. They had it all sorted out, what it would cost if I had no insurance vs. with insurance. Oh sure, they had payment plans for me to pay them if I had no ins. (I did have ins.), but I would have had to decline the surgery that's for sure.
> 
> The healthcare across our country is not a one-size-fits all. My DH and I have not been able to get a cash-pay discount for any health services for over 17 years now.


Hey, I'm just rebutting someone else's generalization. I'm not saying you will get equal mileage.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I think that this plan was designed to fail. If it works as it supposed to, we don't have the medical infrastructure to support it. If it doesn't work, it will fail in so many ways, the worst of these being wasting huge amounts of money we don't have.


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## Homesteader (Jul 13, 2002)

mary,tx, I should have responded to gimpyrancher's comment too, both came across to me as trying to state it as fact, I am sorry, I shouldn't have said a thing. I am very emotional right now over this whole insurance thing, because if the marketplace is not significantly less for the same coverage than what our "new" policy will be going up to (350.00 a month more, wham), we will not be having insurance anymore.

I apologize if I caused any ill feelings.......


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## marytx (Dec 4, 2002)

Grumpy old man said:


> Seems to me that no one has bothered to talk about how bad the Dr and nursing shortage is already ! if you were suddenly made to pay for health care wouldn't you use it as often as possible so much so that even for a common cold you would have Dr's so overwhelmed and back logs of office visits that it could take months to be seen! socialist medicine will not work in America .The average American is too "special" to be willing to wait their turn .


Back in the late seventies I had a Canadian roommate at college who was very proud of their socialized medicine. But when she went home and had some medical problem requiring immediate care, she was surprised to find out she had to wait for months for an initial checkup.

Anyone who thinks government run medical care will run efficiently should have to deal with the VA hospital system. My dad tried to get cataract surgery done at the VA, but after waiting for months for an initial appointment only to be scheduled months later for yet another preliminary appointment, he finally went to the regular hospital and just got it done. At 89, you can't be waiting indefinitely or you're just going to be blind.
But, then, maybe that was the plan all along at the VA, just to outlast him.


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## marytx (Dec 4, 2002)

Homesteader said:


> mary,tx, I should have responded to gimpyrancher's comment too, both came across to me as trying to state it as fact, I am sorry, I shouldn't have said a thing. I am very emotional right now over this whole insurance thing, because if the marketplace is not significantly less for the same coverage than what our "new" policy will be going up to (350.00 a month more, wham), we will not be having insurance anymore.
> 
> I apologize if I caused any ill feelings.......


No ill feelings were caused. I am truly sorry for your exasperation. I am also exasperated by this whole thing.

I haven't had health insurance for about eleven years. But I am NOT anxious to have the government take over the system and have to start paying additional taxes for something I do not have.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mary said:


> Anyone who thinks government run medical care will run efficiently should have to deal with the VA hospital system.


This isn't government run medical care, and it doesn't resemble the VA. This is only government subsidized insurance.


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

Grumpy old man said:


> Seems to me that no one has bothered to talk about how bad the Dr and nursing shortage is already ! if you were suddenly made to pay for health care wouldn't you use it as often as possible so much so that even for a common cold you would have Dr's so overwhelmed and back logs of office visits that it could take months to be seen! socialist medicine will not work in America .The average American is too "special" to be willing to wait their turn .


 
There is no evidence that suggests that what you say will happen.


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

Homesteader said:


> mary,tx, I should have responded to gimpyrancher's comment too, both came across to me as trying to state it as fact, I am sorry, I shouldn't have said a thing. I am very emotional right now over this whole insurance thing, because if the marketplace is not significantly less for the same coverage than what our "new" policy will be going up to (350.00 a month more, wham), we will not be having insurance anymore.
> 
> I apologize if I caused any ill feelings.......


Do you qualify for subsidy?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

well, there are doctors retiring rather than deal with this.
And I see nothing that says it won't cause less doctors than before.


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## Homesteader (Jul 13, 2002)

Hollowdweller, according to one of the calculators I do believe we do. I will not know until tomorrow what our final cost will be though as my state's website was only showing amounts for individuals.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Hollowdweller said:


> There is no evidence that suggests that what you say will happen.


How about common sense ? Many many people have lived without insurance for years now that they HAVE to have it they will use it because they are paying for it and want something for their money ! How are people supposed to pay for it when jobs are cut daily and hours pushed back to avoid the requirement ? This is still America and I don't need the government to force me to do anything ! Maybe it's time for a new revolution ?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

AngieM2 said:


> well, there are doctors retiring rather than deal with this.
> And I see nothing that says it won't cause less doctors than before.


A lot of doctors are embracing ACA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkGGDOp4uUg


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

Grumpy old man said:


> How about common sense ? Many many people have lived without insurance for years now that they HAVE to have it they will use it because they are paying for it and want something for their money ! How are people supposed to pay for it when jobs are cut daily and hours pushed back to avoid the requirement ? This is still America and I don't need the government to force me to do anything ! Maybe it's time for a new revolution ?


 
Common sense tells me that if more people see their doctor when they feel bad rather than when they are so sick they have to that it will reduce the cost of chronic illnesses which is one of the major drivers of health care cost.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Hollowdweller said:


> Common sense tells me that if more people see their doctor when they feel bad rather than when they are so sick they have to that it will reduce the cost of chronic illnesses which is one of the major drivers of health care cost.


It will not help if they can't get in to see a doctor. Here at least it is almost impossible to find a primary care doctor if you have Medicare, Medicaid, or some types of insurance.

If this is such a great plan, why did the Congress except themselves and other govt employees?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mary said:


> Does anyone know if the 1% individual tax penalty for not complying is based on gross income or taxable income?


Gross income, I'm fairly certain.
I'll look it up and confirm.

I didn't get this directly from the legislation, I got it from an NPR Q&A site, but according to them I was wrong, it's ok it's not my first mistake in life, lol.
The rest of their answers are factual, so I'd go with it.



The penalty for not having health insurance is, at least for 2014, is $95 or 1 percent of your taxable income &#8212; whichever is greater. It does go up in later years, eventually to a maximum of 2.5 percent of taxable income.

It's assessed, if you owe it, on your 2014 income tax form that's due April 15, 2015. And that's how the government finds you &#8212; it asks on your income tax form if you had health insurance. People who have it will get some sort of certificate of coverage from their health insurers. And a reminder &#8212; you can't go to jail for not paying the penalty; the government can't even garnish your wages. The most the IRS can do is withhold your tax refund. See the answer to the last question in this IRS fact sheet.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Grumpy old man said:


> Seems to me that no one has bothered to talk about how bad the Dr and nursing shortage is already ! if you were suddenly made to pay for health care wouldn't you use it as often as possible so much so that even for a common cold you would have Dr's so overwhelmed and back logs of office visits that it could take months to be seen! socialist medicine will not work in America .The average American is too "special" to be willing to wait their turn .


 And some have already Laid Off people. One hospital has let 300 go just so they can still manage to make it under this new health mess that is about to hit. So talk about a shortage you bet there we be.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> And some have already Laid Off people. One hospital has let 300 go just so they can still manage to make it under this new health mess that is about to hit. So talk about a shortage you bet there we be.


Won't they need those people when the flood of ACA patients show up?


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Nevada said:


> You know that a lot of people aren't being seen at all right now, let alone in a timely manner. They're not being seen because they can't afford to be seen.
> 
> What you seem to be suggesting here is that we leave people who do not currently have insurance (including myself) without care so there will be more medical resources for yourself. Is that pretty much it?


I believe health care should be totally free for all , But we don't have the resources to be able to provide that .I personally can call my Dr and be seen today because I pay cash on the spot and don't see that changing . this whole system relies on the young to pay for the old the problem is getting the young to buy rather than pay the fine if the majority decide to just pay the fine were will the costs be covered ? from what fund ? from what new tax ? Where will it end ? How will the costs of any of it be covered ? by seized tax returns ?


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

If the pay for nurses falls in the hospital setting (were they currently get full health benefits) and they have to pay for insurance just like everyone else what will keep them there when they could work for a nursing agency and take home 3 times their hospital pay and pick and choose there schedule at will ? Who is going to replace them ?


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Today's cheapest great deal .I like it so well i think i'll take two :grumble:
Don't know if this is commie care or not .
Apply	
Copay 70/7500
$239.77
Monthly Cost
Continue
Information below describes the in-network coverage for this plan. The amounts shown are your share of the costs for covered benefits.
Plan Type	PPO
Copay	see brochure
Deductible	Individual: $7,500
Coinsurance	30% after deductible
Coinsurance Limit	see brochure
Out-of-Pocket Maximum	Individual: $5,000
Does not include deductible
Lifetime Maximum	Unlimited


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Won't they need those people when the flood of ACA patients show up?


 You will have to ask those hospitals that question.
This is just on one search page. LOOK at all that are laying off.
*
Hospital Layoffs Pick Up As ObamaCare Era Starts*


> That busy health care industry to-do list ahead of ObamaCare includes an increasing number of hospital job cuts. Since the start of May, hospital groups have announced plans to lay off nearly 6,000 workers. Add in several thousand additional positions seeing fewer hours or cuts through attrition and buyouts, and the work reductions impact more than 9,000 jobs.
> 
> Read More At Investor's Business Daily: http://news.investors.com/071913-66...obamacare-medicare-medicaid.htm#ixzz2gPdz1a7M


Sep 20, 2013 - Hospitals are cutting costs and laying off employees, citing Obamcare as the main reason. But is health care reform really to blame?
Medicare Cuts, Obamacare Prompt Hospital Layoffs | Washington ...
freebeacon.com/medicare-cuts-obamacare-prompt-hospital-layoffs/&#8206;

Sep 13, 2013 - Many hospitals are slashing jobs and cutting patient services citing Medicare cuts , the difficult health care landscape, and the Affordable Care ...
Obamacare Causes Layoffs at Illinois Hospital | Washington Free ...
freebeacon.com/obamacare-causes-layoffs-at-illinois-hospital/&#8206;
BY: Washington Free Beacon Staff September 25, 2013 8:52 am. One week before Obamacare is set to take effect, businesses across the nation continue to lay ...
News for hospital layoffs
Southcoast Hospital to layoff up to 60 people
SouthCoastToday.com &#8206;- 23 hours ago
NEW BEDFORD â Southcoast Health System will lay off up to 60 people, the company's CEO announced Sept. 16, attributing the restructuring ...
9 Recent Hospital and Health System Layoffs
www.beckershospitalreview.com/hospital.../9-recent-hospital-and-health-...&#8206;

Sep 13, 2013 - The following nine hospital and health system layoffs and workforce reductions were covered by Becker's Hospital Review in the last two weeks ...
12 Recent Hospital and Health System Layoffs
www.beckershospitalreview.com/hospital.../12-recent-hospital-and-healt...&#8206;

Aug 30, 2013 - The following 12 hospital and health system layoffs and workforce reductions were covered by Becker's Hospital Review in the last two weeks.
Hospital layoffs planned ahead of ObamaCare implementation
www.westernjournalism.com âº News From The Web&#8206;
Sep 19, 2013 - B. Christopher Agee: Hospital layoffs planned ahead of ObamaCare implementation. Learn more about Obamacare.
Blog: Obamacare layoffs hit major Chicago hospital system
www.americanthinker.com/.../obamacare_layoffs_hit_major_chicago_ho...&#8206;

Aug 28, 2013 - NorthShore University HealthSystem, a large ($1.8 billion annual revenue) Chicago-area hospital network is laying off 130 employees 
St. James hospitals, health centers face layoffs - Southtown Star
southtownstar.suntimes.com/.../st-james-hospitals-health-centers-face-lay...&#8206;
7 days ago - St. James hospitals and health centers in Olympia Fields and Chicago Heights are laying off 125 workers as hospital inpatient admissions 
Hospital Layoffs Thanks To ObamaCare - National Republican ...
www.nrcc.org/2013/08/27/hospital-layoffs-thanks-obamacare/&#8206;

Aug 27, 2013 - 49 employees at a Texas hospital will soon be laid off due to the burdens associated with ObamaCare, according to local news station KCBD.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

We haven't even begun to see the damage this "health plan ' will do to America . Better buckle that seat belt because this is going to be a ride ! Free health care isn't free is it ?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Grumpy old man said:


> I believe health care should be totally free for all , But we don't have the resources to be able to provide that .


What do you suggest to help make it free for all?


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Nevada said:


> What do you suggest to help make it free for all?


Stop funding other countries and enforce our borders as other countries do , stop being the police nation of the world . we feed third world countries were they are unable to grow food ,wouldn't it be easier for those countries to move the people to the food ?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Grumpy old man said:


> Stop funding other countries and enforce our borders as other countries do , stop being the police nation of the world . we feed third world countries were they are unable to grow food ,wouldn't it be easier for those countries to move the people to the food ?


If those things were done you would support government funded health car for all Americans?


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Nevada said:


> If those things were done you would support government funded health car for all Americans?


Who wouldn't ? We would have a surplus of cash , America needs to take care of America stop the flow of imported goods remember what an industrialized nation functions like and start rebuilding our own infastructure rather than another countries that we just destroyed in another mini war or police action ,when do we start taking care of our own ? Charity starts at home !


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## Homesteader (Jul 13, 2002)

Ok, here's one I just thought of. Let's say a person ends up at the maximum out of pocket for the whole year amount, due to an illness or accident or what-have-you.

Let's assume they are not able to pay the deductible and/or the 20%, 30% or 40% co-insurance (depending on their plan). If they file bankruptcy due to the medical costs that they owe being so high, will they still qualify for subsidies? Will they still be able to purchase insurance? Will they still be required to purchase insurance if they are in Bankruptcy?


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

I deleted some posts that were not productive. I do want everyone to be able to discuss the healthcare/insurance issue and I understand that it is a frustrating/worrying topic to many. However, I do demand that people remain respectful to each other and that the threads discussing this are helpful and informative. I appreciate your support in this.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I do think we need to change the way we do health care in this country.

I would start at the other end. Educate more doctors,PA's, NP's, nurses. Give very large scholarships for needed specialties. Let nurses, PA's, NP's and military medic's take shortcuts in school if they can show proficiency. Let hospitals add more beds as they feel are needed, enlarge the service so people can get care. The subsidize those who need it, not want it, but with very healthy penalties for drug use, smoking, alcohol abuse, and obesity. 
The other option would be a system of parallel care, with clinics and hospitals run as charity clinics. You would have to start with training, not telling people they can have free care with no one to give it.


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## my3boys (Jan 18, 2011)

Nevada said:


> What do you suggest to help make it free for all?


That's the problem. There is no such thing as free healthcare. The government doesn't have any money of its own. The only money the government has is what it takes from the American people through taxes. In other words, government doesn't have anything to give to you it doesn't first take from somebody else. Very few things in life are free. Somebody pays.


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## TJN66 (Aug 29, 2004)

The hospital where I work laid of 80+ full time nurses. Closed all medical units and made the er into a walk in clinic in anticipation of obamacare. There will be a np on nights and a pa on days to deal with the patients coming into the walk in clinic.

Where are the people going to go to get care now? We are a low income hospital for indegent/medicaid people. Where are they going to go? The only thing they kept open was detox/rehab/nursing home/psych unit. They dont want to keep those open but the state says they can not close it. 

Not one respiratory therapist in the hospital on evenings/nights. Terminated contracts for the hospitalists since there are no medical floors now for them to see incomming patients.

How is this going to help people now? All patients are to be transferred to another hospital across town that couldnt keep up with the influx before the closure. Its really bad. I would not want to go to where I work with a life threatening emergency.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Molly Mckee said:


> Educate more doctors,PA's, NP's, nurses. Give very large scholarships for needed specialties. Let hospitals add more beds as they feel are needed, enlarge the service so people can get care. The subsidize those who need it, not want it, but with very healthy penalties for drug use, smoking, alcohol abuse, and obesity.


Questions:
1. Where are you going to get applicants for this training? Hospitals are laying off, not hiring, so why get trained?

2. Where will the money come from for the hospitals to add more beds?

3. Tax smokers, drinkers, and fat people? Really?


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

1. Getting applicants for medical training has never been a problem. When things get sorted out there will be plenty of jobs in the medical field, unless the whole country falls apart. 

2. The hospitals can decide how many beds their facility can fill. Now, they have to get everything approved by many and various governmental agencies. Who would know better how many beds a right, a hospital professional or a bureaucrat?

3. No, not tax them. Just don't expect others pay for their health problems. Let them pay the difference in premiums. They can do whatever they want, it's none of my business, but don't expect me to care more about your health than you do. We aren't charging people the same amount of premiums now, what state you live in changes the premium now. 

4. There are plenty of other ideas out there. It's a complex problem, but I'd like to see a program that would work. People are being promised things that are not possible, IMO.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Midnight eastern time came and went, but the country still exists. A lot of the government is shut down, but the ACA lives. Signups start today. I'll let you know what I find in the Nevada exchange in the morning.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Midnight eastern time came and went, and we're still standing. A lot of the government is shut down, but the ACA lives. Signups start today. I'll let you know what I find in the Nevada exchange in the morning.


Poll Results: Will you sign-up for the new health insurance marketplace?

Yes
15.66%
No
84.34%
Total Responses - 396
Does not look good if this is what going on throughout the country.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> Poll Results: Will you sign-up for the new health insurance marketplace?
> 
> Yes
> 15.66%
> ...


What do you expect? 55% already have insurance through their employers, and even more are already covered by Medicare or Medicaid. They only expect about 7 million signups through the exchanges this year. I think those are fair numbers, but not surprising at all.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> but with very healthy penalties for drug use, smoking, alcohol abuse, and obesity


I just had to comment on this. Some people are obese because of medical conditions. Who would make that determination?? 

I have a problem with insurance companies telling me if a treatment my doctor suggests is ok with them. They know nothing about my health other than the paperwork. If a doctor prescribes something they feel is necessary, than I think the insurance should have to pay it. It seems they want their premiums, but they will sure try to find a way to NOT pay something if they can. 

Insurance is the biggest racket that was ever invented.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

True progressive health care will only be available to those who pay cash , You will see many PRIVATE hospitals for those who can afford them with premium care provided .Everyone else will be forced thru a system that will lack any resemblance of what we know now and people will die waiting for any type of care . Old and infirm start counting your days or find a Dr willing to keep you as a cash customer .


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Here's what I know about the A.C.A. People will continue to suffer and die, just like they always have. The rich will continue to get richer and the poor will get poorer. It's all just a minor reshuffle.


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

Why are any of you going to pay anything!! This is the biggest rip off ever, if you think you are going to get medical coverage you are wrong.
Taxation with out representation. We need to take our country back.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I have friends who have worked for cash and have not filed tax returns for years. They live on the financial edge all the time. They won't be applying for ACA.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Shhhhhhh........don't TELL on me, LOL.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

davel745 said:


> Why are any of you going to pay anything!! This is the biggest rip off ever, if you think you are going to get medical coverage you are wrong.
> Taxation with out representation. We need to take our country back.


Sad but true , I watched a news station the other night and they showed how much (approx $51,000.00 ) you could receive in federal benefits if you were unemployed ...food stamps /housing /medicare /county health dept /dental/free cell phone /child care . Why bother working and paying taxes when all these freebies are available ? if I was young ,married and had a few kids I would quit go on public assistance and work under the table and have a new bass boat and truck in someone elses name and let the system pay my way while I play video games sitting on a new couch in my government supplied housing eating free steaks from food stamps ...:nana:and qualify for free health care medicade /medicare to get drugs to treat my depression from being unemployed .... Think it's not possible ? I see them everyday around here !


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Grumpy old man said:


> True progressive health care will only be available to those who pay cash , You will see many PRIVATE hospitals for those who can afford them with premium care provided .Everyone else will be forced thru a system that will lack any resemblance of what we know now and people will die waiting for any type of care . Old and infirm start counting your days or find a Dr willing to keep you as a cash customer .


Yes, private doctor owned. 
That is where I had my knee replaced at one of those kind. Now that Private Doctor Owned Surgical Hospital is building a brand new building putting in three times the amount of beds, and will have a 24/7 nurse on duty. 
The place will open in the spring. My friends that have the coffee service at the place now will also get the coffee service in the new building as well.


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## Homesteader (Jul 13, 2002)

Nevada said:


> Midnight eastern time came and went, but the country still exists. A lot of the government is shut down, but the ACA lives. Signups start today. I'll let you know what I find in the Nevada exchange in the morning.


:umno: Crashed.

Too many people checking the site? I assume that's why it's not working, but have no computer knowledge.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I can't get on the WA state site. It either has crashed or doesn't work.


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## KCFLY (Sep 19, 2013)

Can't get into the small business exchange or the Missouri individual exchange.

So far so good....


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## KCFLY (Sep 19, 2013)

Live Help Chat is not working either...


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Homesteader said:


> :umno: Crashed.
> 
> Too many people checking the site? I assume that's why it's not working, but have no computer knowledge.


I don't have trouble viewing the website, but I can't create an account. It won't calculate a subsidy without an account. This isn't because of heavy traffic, it's because the state hired idiots to design the website.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

years of funding to be ready for today and many of the sites are down or don't work at all ......So how well do you think this brilliant health care idea will service you and I ??? Of course they want our money up front too !


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Wendy said:


> I have a problem with insurance companies telling me if a treatment my doctor suggests is ok with them. They know nothing about my health other than the paperwork. If a doctor prescribes something they feel is necessary, than I think the insurance should have to pay it. It seems they want their premiums, but they will sure try to find a way to NOT pay something if they can.
> 
> Insurance is the biggest racket that was ever invented.


You're not going to find an insurance company that doesn't have medical authorizations and a prescription formulary. Of course you can always pay cash.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Grumpy old man said:


> years of funding to be ready for today and many of the sites are down or don't work at all ......So how well do you think this brilliant health care idea will service you and I ??? Of course they want our money up front too !


This is a state website, not federal. I'm on hold now.


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## KCFLY (Sep 19, 2013)

Nevada said:


> This is a state website, not federal. I'm on hold now.


The federal websites aren't working either..


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## KCFLY (Sep 19, 2013)

Nevada said:


> You're not going to find an insurance company that doesn't have medical authorizations and a prescription formulary. Of course you can always pay cash.


This is part of the problem. If my doctor thinks a treatment or medication is necessary for me, he shouldn't have to negotiate with a paper pushing bean counter for me to get that treatment or medication.

There have to be limits of course, but as the ACA is designed, I fear this situation will only get worse.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

KCFLY said:


> This is part of the problem. If my doctor thinks a treatment or medication is necessary for me, he shouldn't have to negotiate with a paper pushing bean counter for me to get that treatment or medication.


To be fair, insurance companies hire doctors to serve on authorization panels. They aren't just bean counters.


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## KCFLY (Sep 19, 2013)

Nevada said:


> To be fair, insurance companies hire doctors to serve on authorization panels. They aren't just bean counters.


Very true, but in many cases the authorizations are based upon some actuarial tables that determine coverage limits for the policy that the authorization panels are constrained by.

I know it's not them against us, but I do feel it is way too difficult to get the treatment my doctor thinks is best for me sometimes.

Disclaimer: I am VERY happy with my current health care insurance.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

KCFLY said:


> The federal websites aren't working either..


healthcare.gov is up.


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## KCFLY (Sep 19, 2013)

Nevada said:


> healthcare.gov is up.


healthcare.gov is up, but wont' let you create an account. With no account, you cant see policies/premiums for individuals.

Also the federal SHOP marketplace for small business is giving errors when trying to view policies/premiums.

so, the main site is up, but it's not working.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Nevada said:


> I don't have trouble viewing the website, but I can't create an account.


I just got off the phone with customer service. They are aware that nobody can create an account. I don't give them a pass on this at all, especially since the state will take a hit in the wallet for all of the toll-free customer support this will create.

But I can see by the feel of the website that it was created by a fair-haired politically-connected vendor. There will be no accountability.

LAMERS!


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

May I suggest that all advice and "facts" given here, be verified before proceding. Not all experts are experts - and with this being a fluid document/program - the known "facts" may not be facts 15 minutes after being posted.


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## Jane in southwest WI (May 14, 2002)

All I want to do is check prices. I don't want to create an account. Why can't I get some prices just by giving age, income and location, like on eInsurance or a similar website? 

If I have to give over a bunch of personal info just to get a rate quote, I'm really, really not happy.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Jane in southwest WI said:


> All I want to do is check prices. I don't want to create an account. Why can't I get some prices just by giving age, income and location, like on eInsurance or a similar website?
> 
> If I have to give over a bunch of personal info just to get a rate quote, I'm really, really not happy.


I can get gross prices for insurance plans at my exchange without registering. What I can't do get is see the subsidy figured in, or actually take out insurance.


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## Jane in southwest WI (May 14, 2002)

Apparently on the federally-run exchange website you have to create an account before you can get any price info. Somebody please let me know if it's possible to simply get some price info without creating an account on healthcare.gov. 

I got a letter from my current insurance company that says I can keep my current plan (at a higher rate of course) until Dec 2014, but I want to compare prices before I decide.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Jane in southwest WI said:


> I got a letter from my current insurance company that says I can keep my current plan (at a higher rate of course) until Dec 2014, but I want to compare prices before I decide.


It's also important that you see if you qualify for a subsidy. It might save you a bundle.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Nevada said:


> I don't have trouble viewing the website, but I can't create an account. It won't calculate a subsidy without an account. This isn't because of heavy traffic, it's because the state hired idiots to design the website.


 It's because Idiots hired People. Noone in their right mind would think that anything run by the government is going to be done right. They had 3 years to deal with this mess. We'd be better off if HT ran our HC.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

7thswan said:


> It's because Idiots hired People. Noone in their right mind would think that anything run by the government is going to be done right. They had 3 years to deal with this mess. We'd be better off if HT ran our HC.


I seriously doubt that the government designed the website or administrates the web server. That's almost certainly done by a contractor.

That said, there's no excuse for this. The customer service girl was telling me that she believes this is happening because of high server load. I doubt that, but even if that was true that's no excuse. They should have anticipated the traffic and designed a server stress test beforehand. Somebody simply didn't do his job properly. I have no patience for that.

This reminds me of a buffet host at the Fremont hotel who was completely overwhelmed by the volume of customers. She said to me, "I don't know why everyone decided to come to the buffet at the same time." I replied, "It's dinner time."

But now that it's down I have to wonder why they don't put of a dummy page informing us that they are having technical problems. To find out that the system is down you need to enter all of your registration information. That's an unnecessary imposition on visitors. There's really no excuse at all for that.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I'm hearing on the radio -it's a mess, even if you do get thru to the questions.


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## DianeWV (Feb 1, 2007)

Has anybody been able to create an account yet?? I put in username and password, but keep getting a try again later message. This is on the healthcare.gov website


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

DianeWV said:


> Has anybody been able to create an account yet?? I put in username and password, but keep getting a try again later message. This is on the healthcare.gov website


I can't create an account either, but I'm only trying at my state website. I don't know for sure if state website associated with the national website. I don't see why it should be.


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## Jane in southwest WI (May 14, 2002)

Nevada said:


> It's also important that you see if you qualify for a subsidy. It might save you a bundle.


I'm a contractor and my income varies. I may have qualified based on last year's income, but I probably won't this year. I don't want to have to pay back subsidy money if I got the subsidy and then make more than I thought I would. I don't want a tax nightmare on top of the insurance nightmare that Obamacare is. 

This whole thing has gotten me way too upset. It's insane.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> You can go to healthcare.gov to learn more, and will eventually talk you to the exchange website for your state. Since you live in Arkansas you can click this link directly.
> 
> http://hbe.arkansas.gov/
> 
> That should help you a lot, but won't be fully functional until Tuesday.





farmrbrown said:


> Fully functional?
> Now THAT'S a term subject to interpretation isn't it?
> LOL


Hmmmmmmmm.......
eep:


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## snoozy (May 10, 2002)

Some people are complaining about deductibles. Insurance companies ALWAYS have deductibles. That is not new. Co-pays? Co-pays are not new either. Work that Kaiser calculator which Melissa gave the link for. I came up with an after-subsidy cost of just over $100 a month for 3 people with an income of $55K. I was paying $100 for just myself, as a young adult maybe 30 years ago. I'm not going to whine about $100 for 3 of us, deductibles or no. What would you do if you had an emergency and you have no insurance? You go when you can no longer avoid it and you pay what you can and you cannot believe how much the whole fiasco costs...and you think a deductible is bad? At least a deductible puts a cap on how much the hospital can gouge you (they have you sign a document agreeing to pay whatever they ask.)

Right now, my fiance is paying $550 a month for himself alone as the sole employee of his own corporation. When I have insurance, when I am on contract for several months at a time, $350 a month is removed from my paycheck for insuring just myself. When I am off contract, I don't have insurance. Which means I never accumulate the one year wait for the heavy dental work. Isn't that nice for the insurance companies?


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Here is some help from a Doctor.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdnY8r7_fLw&feature=player_embedded[/ame]


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

What are the out of pocket costs?


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## susieneddy (Sep 2, 2011)

doesn't everyone know that when something goes on sale there is problems with the website. I have tried to buy concert tickets before and gotten notices that the site is over loaded. Calm down and come back in a few days. You have the rest of the yr to sign up


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

susieneddy said:


> doesn't everyone know that when something goes on sale there is problems with the website. I have tried to buy concert tickets before and gotten notices that the site is over loaded. Calm down and come back in a few days. You have the rest of the yr to sign up


Yes, stress outages are very common, but the truth is that there's no excuse for it. It only happens when someone screws-up.

But I won't give up. I want my Obamacare!


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

I honestly would have been much more surprised if it did work!

I can get to the point where the site is asking me to choose and answer the security questions, no questions pop up, just an empty box.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Yes, stress outages are very common, but the truth is that there's no excuse for it. It only happens when someone screws-up.
> 
> But I won't give up. I want my Obamacare!


And a Unicorn for All! Sorry , Nevada, you better get some regular care, there is no way this is going to work. Not well, anyway.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

farmrbrown said:


> As said above, it is a sliding scale based on income and the fine increases to a maximum % of your income, I can't remember exactly, but roughly 2 - 3%.
> If you don't pay the fine, the only collection mechanism written into the law is for the IRS to snatch your refund, no garnishment or property seizures, just refunds.
> So, adjust your w-4 accordingly and don't have a refund at the end of the year and you can avoid the fine as well.
> Just FYI.
> ...


You have to prove that you have a religion and it is against healthcare in general. They are not establishing a religion nor are they preventing the free exercise of your religion they are just preventing you from making one up in order to get out from under a law you don't like.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Melissa said:


> I honestly would have been much more surprised if it did work!
> 
> I can get to the point where the site is asking me to choose and answer the security questions, no questions pop up, just an empty box.


My exchange asks for account information, then after filling it all out it fails. This goes beyond the system admins being a bunch of lamers, it's downright rude. Having been down all day, I see no excuse for not putting up a little dummy page that says they're having technical difficulties. It's just common courtesy.

I'm also finding false and incomplete information on their FAQ page. Some is serious, like incorrect information about what income is included in calculating income.


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

Ohio did not set up its own so I am using the main healthcare.gov page.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Melissa said:


> Ohio did not set up its own so I am using the main healthcare.gov page.


Nevada has it's own, but I can't say yet if I'll be any better of that way.


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

I'm going to wait a week or so before I go on again. We do have insurance right now, so I was just really curious about pricing and plans, however I can wait for now.


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## susieneddy (Sep 2, 2011)

Melissa said:


> Ohio did not set up its own so I am using the main healthcare.gov page.


Tenn. didn't set up its own either and like you I looked at the main site. I have insurance through work so really there was no reason for me to look. I just wonder how many folks are there just to browse which ties up the system


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Patchouli said:


> You have to prove that you have a religion and it is against healthcare in general. They are not establishing a religion nor are they preventing the free exercise of your religion they are just preventing you from making one up in order to get out from under a law you don't like.


Yes, as I said, I read the IRS and HHS "rules".
As far as my religion, I don't claim one. I'm a follower of this crazy, bearded, long haired dude from Nazareth. He had an even wilder cousin named John, who preferred to eat wild things and live out in the country.
They were good men with some pretty radical ideas and met an unpleasant demise some years ago.

And if I am fined or taxed for getting my healthcare thru them, rather than Uncle Sammy, then if you read the 1st Amendment as it is written, they are indeed, they are singling my faith out as one who is guilty of a civil fine, per IRS code 401c.
Anyone besides me see a legal problem with hitting a person practicing their faith with a civil fine as a 1st Amendment problem?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

FINALLY! After being down nearly all day my exchange just put of a message saying that they are having difficulty and to come back some other time. I can't believe it wasn't done early this morning.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

farmrbrown said:


> Yes, as I said, I read the IRS and HHS "rules".
> As far as my religion, I don't claim one. I'm a follower of this crazy, bearded, long haired dude from Nazareth. He had an even wilder cousin named John, who preferred to eat wild things and live out in the country.
> They were good men with some pretty radical ideas and met an unpleasant demise some years ago.
> 
> ...


So you are saying you have never been to a Doctor in your life due to your faith? If you can prove that I would bet they will give you an exemption. There are Christian branches who do not believe in medical care.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

OK, I was able to register, verify email, and login. In order to calculate my subsidy I had to provide my personal information, but it says they can't verify my identity & address.

I think I know what the problem is. I own my home mortgage-free and I don't have any credit card accounts. Even utilities are still in Alma's name (I didn't change because I figured they would want hefty deposits). I haven't applied for any kind of credit for maybe 8 years. The exchange wants me to verify my address by calling Experion (yes, Experion the credit reporting agency), but they're closed for the night. I'll have to call tomorrow.

I didn't know that I was flying under Experion's radar. Now that I know that I don't really like calling & telling them where I am, but for inexpensive health care insurance I'll do it.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Patchouli said:


> So you are saying you have never been to a Doctor in your life due to your faith? If you can prove that I would bet they will give you an exemption. There are Christian branches who do not believe in medical care.



That is NOT what I'm saying, that sounds like something a gov't mouthpiece would say to me though.
My last visit to a doctor was when I turned 40, at my wife's insistence to get a checkup, because I hadn't had a physical since I played high school football.
I told her what the results would be........I'm as healthy as a horse. I did go one time in my 30's to have something removed from my eye that the wind blew into it. That was an instance where I needed another's eyes and hands to help me. When I broke my hand, I had no insurance or money, so I set it myself. It healed just fine, and I use it with all strength and power to this day, praise God.
I said, I read the IRS and HHS rules. I won't repeat them all here, but in essence to qualify for a religious exemption according to the Beast, that is similar to what they want.
The funny thing is, until you reach the age of accountability, in God's eyes, you aren't responsible. Not so according to Uncle Sammy's law. And even after THAT, it takes years of study before a man can learn the ways of God and the ways of the World to determine who is deceiving him as well as when and how he is being deceived.
It isn't just going to a doctor, for those who bother to read the Beast's law.
Have a mortgage?
Good, then you also have homeowner's insurance.......not allowed.
Paid it all off, but hold a life insurance policy to leave something behind for your wife /kids?........not allowed.
Ditto for any credit card you may have, look at the fine print. Is there any form of insurance tied to it?
I found the same traps when I looked up the Beast's rules on renouncing American citizenship, which you and I never applied for, no doubt. It was bestowed upon us at birth. I don't remember signing my soul away the day I was born, but I know when, who and how I gave it to the One above.
It wasn't around age 12 and it wasn't when I reached 21. And even after that, it wasn't until I reached my 40's that all the lies and deceptions started to manifest themselves.
So no, I won't be participating in the Beast's system, as is my God given right. Everyone has free will to do as he/she chooses. Under God's law that right remains inviolable as long as my soul exists.




Nevada said:


> OK, I was able to register, verify email, and login. In order to calculate my subsidy I had to provide my personal information, but it says they can't verify my identity & address.
> 
> I think I know what the problem is. I own my home mortgage-free and I don't have any credit card accounts. Even utilities are still in Alma's name (I didn't change because I figured they would want hefty deposits). I haven't applied for any kind of credit for maybe 8 years. The exchange wants me to verify my address by calling Experion (yes, Experion the credit reporting agency), but they're closed for the night. I'll have to call tomorrow.
> 
> I didn't know that I was flying under Experion's radar. Now that I know that I don't really like calling & telling them where I am, but for inexpensive health care insurance I'll do it.



Interesting how big a role usury plays in this system isn't it? Those that choose his system will do so voluntarily.
The signs are there, are you seeing them?


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

They control your money , Now your healthcare and your volunteering sensitive information and down loading it to the government ? on the premise you will get cheap healthcare ? Why would anyone become part of the machine ?


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

Hackers of the world kill the Obama care computers. LOL


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

This won't end well. Fines that can't be collected unless the IRA can snag your refund. Congress opted out. The number of exemptions granted is astounding. What could go wrong? Why am I thinking lots of Americans have been fooled? This is going to be the biggest C&B of all time. 

The stories have already started about families that had good coverage now hitting the wall with less coverage for more. Of course the handwringers are still saying, with glee, how great it's going to be. I pity those who are going to be forced onto the Obamacare Titanic.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Just now on morning news 2,400 new files hacked by processors who never had a security clearance before getting the job , keep trying to sign up and see where it takes you in the long run ,you have no idea who you providing personal information to now do you ?


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

I just read a short article on farce book and the op has read the whole bill and studied it and says that all we fear is true. The government is going to decide who gets health care. They are going to terminate older people. And the younger people are going to shoulder the burden of payment.


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

Grumpy old man said:


> Just now on morning news 2,400 new files hacked by processors who never had a security clearance before getting the job , keep trying to sign up and see where it takes you in the long run ,you have no idea who you providing personal information to now do you ?


The whole site needs to be taken down. There may be some good use for hackers yet.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Now on the news People who have signed up are being called by scammers saying they are health care navigators and promising increased benefits for a small fee ......WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE FREE HEALTH CARE WE WERE PROMISED !


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Scammers have been around since the dawn of time, there's nothing new under the sun.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

farmrbrown said:


> Scammers have been around since the dawn of time, there's nothing new under the sun.


but when they call you and already have your info that you just put online and seeking to grab more money is a bit unreal .I flat out refuse to download any private information online .:smack


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## susieneddy (Sep 2, 2011)

davel745 said:


> I just read a short article on farce book and the op has read the whole bill and studied it and says that all we fear is true. The government is going to decide who gets health care. They are going to terminate older people. And the younger people are going to shoulder the burden of payment.


you believe what is posted on FB


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Grumpy old man said:


> but when they call you and already have your info that you just put online and seeking to grab more money is a bit unreal .I flat out refuse to download any private information online .:smack


I agree, I don't stroll down that street either.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Grumpy old man said:


> They control your money , Now your healthcare and your volunteering sensitive information and down loading it to the government ? on the premise you will get cheap healthcare ? Why would anyone become part of the machine ?


Well, I draw Social Security and file tax forms each year, so the federal government already knows where I am.

I just got off the phone with Experion and they have no credit file on me. I have to call another number to have a different department create a file. Sheesh!

Update: I've now been instructed to contact the Nevada health care exchange directly to have them do something to accept my name & address. They don't open until 8 am, almost an hour from now. It looks like I'll stay under Experion's radar after all. I suspect they think I died when credit info about me stopped coming in.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> That is NOT what I'm saying, that sounds like something a gov't mouthpiece would say to me though.
> My last visit to a doctor was when I turned 40, at my wife's insistence to get a checkup, because I hadn't had a physical since I played high school football.
> I told her what the results would be........I'm as healthy as a horse. I did go one time in my 30's to have something removed from my eye that the wind blew into it. That was an instance where I needed another's eyes and hands to help me. When I broke my hand, I had no insurance or money, so I set it myself. It healed just fine, and I use it with all strength and power to this day, praise God.
> I said, I read the IRS and HHS rules. I won't repeat them all here, but in essence to qualify for a religious exemption according to the Beast, that is similar to what they want.
> ...


You know it never ceases to amaze me that those who hate the Beast never hate the Beast enough to leave the Beast. Whenever you drive on a public road, use the internet (*cough*), check out a library book, buy any sort of food, fly, buy gas, use electricity (*cough*), and enjoy the pursuit of happiness on your farm without getting thrown off, you are participating in/enjoying the use of the Beast's system. 

The Beast has process to renounce American citizenship. Give it up and leave the country. The Beast is happy enough to let in some Indian doctor/programmer who will pay lotsa taxes in your place.


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

I think I'm just going to wait a few weeks before I even TRY to sign up...give them time to shake out the bugs. Surely, whoever built the website was PROFOUNDLY influenced by Microsoft...you know, "Hey, it looks pretty enough to me! Let's ROLL IT OUT and fix it as we go!".

If nothing else, you'd THINK they'd have considered the sheer amount of traffic and AT LEAST accounted for THAT much!


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## Homesteader (Jul 13, 2002)

wyld thang, you should see someone about that *cough*, :hysterical:


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Grumpy old man said:


> Seems to me that no one has bothered to talk about how bad the Dr and nursing shortage is already ! if you were suddenly made to pay for health care wouldn't you use it as often as possible so much so that even for a common cold you would have Dr's so overwhelmed and back logs of office visits that it could take months to be seen! socialist medicine will not work in America .The average American is too "special" to be willing to wait their turn .


 
LOL I had to laugh at this statement just because of how I view going to the doctor. I have never been without good insurance but probably average 1 visit per 5 years. I hate going to the doctor. Seriously I am not sure it will make that much difference if they are not ones who already use a doctor on a very regular basis.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Nothing is stopping a person form seeing a insurance agent. They would have all plans printed out, charts and everything, sure you may have to use the computer system, but you still can go see independent insurance agents. That is what my friends wife is doing to get all the low down on things, and sign up.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Nevada said:


> Update: I've now been instructed to contact the Nevada health care exchange directly to have them do something to accept my name & address. They don't open until 8 am, almost an hour from now. It looks like I'll stay under Experion's radar after all. I suspect they think I died when credit info about me stopped coming in.


OK, I talked to my health care exchange. They can't help me. They said that the system wasn't working well enough to process my application anyway, so I should just wait a few days.

Lamers!


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> The stories have already started about families that had good coverage now hitting the wall with less coverage for more. Of course the handwringers are still saying, with glee, how great it's going to be. I pity those who are going to be forced onto the Obamacare Titanic.


 
This is what bothers me. Affordable healthcare for all, yet a lot of people are going to be paying a lot more than they were. I would be mad too.


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

Remember that Obama care is un-constitutional. We don't have to follow it, just say no. If you get sick go to the hospital, if they turn you away you will own the hospital.


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## floyd242 (Jun 11, 2012)

davel745 said:


> Remember that Obama care is un-constitutional. We don't have to follow it, just say no. If you get sick go to the hospital, if they turn you away you will own the hospital.


So you don't want to pay in, but still want everyone else that does to pay for your medical care?

How is that fair?


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

davel745 said:


> Remember that Obama care is un-constitutional. We don't have to follow it, just say no. If you get sick go to the hospital, if they turn you away you will own the hospital.


Heres a kick in the groin and a thumb in the eye at Obama
*Less Than 1% of Visitors to Connecticut Healthcare Exchange Signed Up, Will Media Care?
*


> As the Obama-loving media echo White House talking points that opening day "glitches" at online healthcare exchanges crashed Tuesday due to a flood of interested Americans clamoring for insurance, they might consider what happened in Connecticut.
> According to Congressman Jim Himes (D-Conn.), out of the 28,000 visitors to his state's exchange Tuesday, only 167 actually signed up:
> For those that can do math, *that means 0.6 percent of visitors actually applied for insurance.*
> If that's what President Obama and his media minions think is a success, one has to wonder what they'd call failure.




Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-s...-exchange-signed-will-media-car#ixzz2gafN91vY


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## KCFLY (Sep 19, 2013)

Nevada said:


> for inexpensive health care insurance I'll do it.


That's just it, it is NOT inexpensive health care. YOU may not be paying much for it, but someone is. That someone is everyone that still pays taxes in this country.


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

floyd242 said:


> So you don't want to pay in, but still want everyone else that does to pay for your medical care?
> 
> How is that fair?


I have a health care insurance but the government has made it so I cant use it. I am on a fixed income and so I don't have any insurance. I pay taxes let the government and my taxes pay for the darn thing. I am also a veteran and don't need health care insurance but I thought I would try to do my share. Not working to good.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

farmrbrown said:


> That is NOT what I'm saying, that sounds like something a gov't mouthpiece would say to me though.
> My last visit to a doctor was when I turned 40, at my wife's insistence to get a checkup, because I hadn't had a physical since I played high school football.
> I told her what the results would be........I'm as healthy as a horse. I did go one time in my 30's to have something removed from my eye that the wind blew into it. That was an instance where I needed another's eyes and hands to help me. When I broke my hand, I had no insurance or money, so I set it myself. It healed just fine, and I use it with all strength and power to this day, praise God.
> I said, I read the IRS and HHS rules. I won't repeat them all here, but in essence to qualify for a religious exemption according to the Beast, that is similar to what they want.
> ...


If all else fails accuse the person you disagree with of being a government plant eh?


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## gimpyrancher (Jun 6, 2010)

mary said:


> Not true. My doctor gives me a 30% discount for paying at time of service. Before the big hospital took over my hospital I got a like discount with them.


I'm entertained. Don't know about your state but as a doctor in CA, Charging more to the insurance company for the same level of service is illegal.

Also, you don't mention what the hospital rate of discount to the insurance company. They probably are still pay less than you. I rest my case.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

KCFLY said:


> That's just it, it is NOT inexpensive health care.


Actually, it's considerably less than prices I've seen at einsurance.com. Evidently the insurance companies competitively bid for a chance to be on an exchange.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

*Obamacare Fines to be Seized From Bank Accounts?*



> Man who attempted to sign up claims he was threatened with drivers license being revoked, federal tax lien on home
> 
> A man who attempted to sign up for Obamacare online was told that a fine of over $4,000 dollars a year for refusing to take out mandatory health insurance could be taken directly from his bank account, and that his drivers license would be suspended and a federal tax lien placed against his home, according to an entry on the HealthCare.gov Facebook page.
> If true, the implementation of Obamacare is going to be a whole lot more draconian than Americans have been led to believe.


http://www.infowars.com/obamacare-fines-to-be-seized-from-bank-accounts/


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## KathleenElsie (Sep 28, 2013)

NIH Offering Grants to Study âPalliative Careâ for the Elderly
October 1, 2013 - 4:19 PM 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



By Barbara Hollingsworth

(CNSNews.com) â The National Institutes of Health (NIH) is soliciting applications for federal grants worth up to $275,000 to research ways to provide elderly patients with âpalliative careâ â even in hospital emergency rooms and intensive care units...- See more at: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/bar...-palliative-care-elderly#sthash.kARWCXI9.dpuf

Seems they are in a hurry to eliminate high cost citizens.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

wyld thang said:


> You know it never ceases to amaze me that those who hate the Beast never hate the Beast enough to leave the Beast. Whenever you drive on a public road, use the internet (*cough*), check out a library book, buy any sort of food, fly, buy gas, use electricity (*cough*), and enjoy the pursuit of happiness on your farm without getting thrown off, you are participating in/enjoying the use of the Beast's system.
> 
> The Beast has process to renounce American citizenship. Give it up and leave the country. The Beast is happy enough to let in some Indian doctor/programmer who will pay lotsa taxes in your place.


Yep, it does seem quite the predicament. Yet paying towards public roads, libraries, schools, via property, sales and fuel taxes really has never been an issue for me as long as the tax money was spent wisely. Taking part voluntarily in your community in a tangible way, or shunning others entirely I consider as a personal choice to be made on a case by case basis with wisdom.
I could always choose to give up my vehicles, thereby absolving me of paying for the roads, I actually owe a lot to those who educated me and don't begrudge the younger generations getting educated at my expense either.
I try every year to grow more and buy less from the grocery and other retail stores, but I participate in that commerce as well.
But none of those everyday things that I voluntarily choose, do I equate with deception, control and lies........but there have been times that I've recognized it creeping in and ceased doing business with whatever vendor or entity that was doing so.
I haven't yet encountered a gas station or retail store that required a religious declaration to participate or exclude me.
So while I DO live in the world, I still avoid becoming dictated to, BY the world. It IS hard and becoming harder, so in turn is my resistance.
I hope that makes sense.
As far as renouncing citizenship, you may have missed where I already looked into that.
Without going into too many personal details, the first step, getting a passport and leaving the country, would be my first hurdle. I had one many years ago, but in the changes after 9/11, I strongly suspect that ......

1) I wouldn't be issued one, and no, I won't say why publicly. To squash any speculation though, I am not an international smut peddler or child trafficker, lol.
2) If I could get a passport, I would then have to leave the country and go to an American embassy. I could drive to Mexico or Canada, but I refuse to be searched at an airport without a warrant, so I could still leave via automobile.
3) If I managed to get out, I would anticipate a robust attempt to deny me access back in to go live in my home in peace. This isn't based on unfounded paranoia, but on accounts from some of my trucker friends who regularly cross the borders on their job. Even when you're totally legal, the PTB can find a reason or make a mistake that holds you in limbo for hours or longer.

That seems a bit much to ask a man who was born here, loves his friends, family and countryside, to go thru all because elected officials have decided that they have a right to "approve" of my religious beliefs and furthermore demand that I buy their product as a condition of my existence.
I try to be an easy guy to get along with, but we all have our limits.

I could choose to submit or I could choose to run and hide. One day it might be wise to do so (run and hide) but as for now, I've still got enough young buck in me that standing my ground still appeals to me.




Patchouli said:


> If all else fails accuse the person you disagree with of being a government plant eh?


I admit I was surprised at how close you were to stating the essence of HHS requirements for exemption. They are actually a little stricter than that, even. I think accompanying documents are required from your pastor as well, and your group's registration with the government, all conditional on the agencies approval. 

The whole thing is basically a non starter for me. I could probably meet nearly every requirement along with documentation, but alas, I won't bow that low, to them anyways.


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## Deacon Mike (May 23, 2007)

arabian knight said:


> *Obamacare Fines to be Seized From Bank Accounts?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is total, complete and utter garbage. Not a shred of truth in it.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Nevada said:


> A lot of doctors are embracing ACA.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkGGDOp4uUg


Really? I have yet to meet one.
And youtube as your reference...lots of credibility there.

Matt


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## marytx (Dec 4, 2002)

gimpyrancher said:


> I'm entertained. Don't know about your state but as a doctor in CA, Charging more to the insurance company for the same level of service is illegal.
> 
> Also, you don't mention what the hospital rate of discount to the insurance company. They probably are still pay less than you. I rest my case.


If I could understand what you are saying, maybe I'd answer it. Obviously it is not against the law in Texas to offer a self-pay discount. Why shouldn't I have a discount for paying up front and not making the office file insurance and wait to be paid.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Hollowdweller said:


> There is no evidence that suggests that what you say will happen.


Do you mean the shortage of medical staff? That's already happening. Medicare has already started cutting reimbursements, to the point where it actually costs doctors to see patients. It's already nearly impossible to find a doc who will see you if you're on medicaid.

I personally know of two doctors who are choosing early retirement over slowly growing broke and insane under the new system. 

In addition to the influx of new patients, it seems that some folks are also forgetting that the baby boomers are coming to the age of retirement and associated health issues.

I work in health care, and there are already cuts in service from homemaking, home nursing, and hospice care. It is projected that more than 60% of these service companies will not survive the ACA. 

IMO, this is going to be one huge train wreck. Wait, correct that: Not "going to be." This IS one huge train wreck, but people don't (or won't) see the rumbling coming down the track.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Ya really.


> there is no evidence that it WILL happen.


 It is happening, and it is happening now, and has been for months.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

arabian knight said:


> Ya really. It is happening, and it is happening now, and has been for months.


well... it has actually been happening for years new nurses come out of school with no experience and go to work for a local hospital for a year at about $15.00 + benefits after that 1st year they can work for a temp nursing agency at 3 times the money and pick and choose their schedule or become travel nurses and travel the world while being paid great $ . Whats sad is the lowest paid cna has more patient contact than anyone else in a hospital while the Rn's usually end up in administration and lpn's are the work horses of most any hospital .sad but true . Did you ever notice that many critical care nurses and respiratory therapists smoke ?


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Grumpy old man said:


> well... it has actually been happening for years new nurses come out of school with no experience and go to work for a local hospital for a year at about $15.00 + benefits after that 1st year they can work for a temp nursing agency at 3 times the money and pick and choose their schedule or become travel nurses and travel the world while being paid great $ . Whats sad is the lowest paid cna has more patient contact than anyone else in a hospital while the Rn's usually end up in administration and lpn's are the work horses of most any hospital .sad but true . Did you ever notice that many critical care nurses and respiratory therapists smoke ?


There are no $15.00 an hour RN's, lpn's are being phased out as are cna's in many areas. RN's have a lot of PT contact. Your information is at least 20-30 years out of date. And most medical people do not smoke.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Molly Mckee said:


> There are no $15.00 an hour RN's, lpn's are being phased out as are cna's in many areas. RN's have a lot of PT contact. Your information is at least 20-30 years out of date. And most medical people do not smoke.


I'm sure it differs from state to state .But I was posting about Rn's with no experience fresh from school . Lpn's will never be phased out they are the work horses of many facilities on non specialty floors all tho I know some who work surgical intensive /respiratory intensive /ER/ Cardiac intensive and OR And many facilities encourage Lpn's to continue their education to get their Rn, CCRN and BSN .And there is no way to phase out Lpn's and Cna's when the patient load of 10-12 on a med/surg floor will definitely increase . there is no way an Rn can carry a pt load process Dr's orders /provide personal pt care /change beds/ pass meds /IV maintenance and do q4 hour vitals and still have time for lunch on a 12 hour shift . My point on this thread was that there is and has been a severe nursing shortage nation wide , and with hospitals laying off nurses when the need will definitely increase with the new "plan" and baby boomers aging, Hospitals are laying off to stay in guidelines and not due to lack of need but to stay profitable in the changing health care setting .And I never said most nurses smoke I said many still do and that is changing as many hospitals are now smoke free zones . In my opinion I think we will see many more Cna's being put to work part time as they are trained in 2 weeks while an Lpn takes 1 year full time and an Rn 2 years .


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Molly Mckee said:


> There are no $15.00 an hour RN's, lpn's are being phased out as are cna's in many areas. RN's have a lot of PT contact. Your information is at least 20-30 years out of date. And most medical people do not smoke.


I can't imagine an area where an RN would work for $15 an hour even right out of school. An LPN might start at $15 tho. I know many nurses (and nursing students) and not one of them smokes. I have no idea where people come up with the idea that RNs only dispense meds, it's ridiculous, RNs work their tails off. 

GOM, where are there nursing layoffs? I live near a smallish city and all three hospitals are hiring. If you want to be a temporary or travel nurse (mostly NYC) it's excellent pay plus paid housing.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

ultimatenurse.com


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

GOM- from your link: "Labor statistics indicate that the nursing shortage is indeed very real and not a myth. A recent press release by the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that the healthcare sector added 23,000 jobs in January 2013 and 320,000 jobs in 2012. This is significant increase over the 296,900 healthcare sector jobs added in 2011. Most of those jobs are for nurses and there are many more jobs that are going unfilled due to a shortage of experienced nurses. As the economy recovers, nurses retire, the U.S. population ages and tens of millions of previously uninsured Americans gain health care insurance in 2014 when certain provisions of the Affordable Care Act take effect, health care spending will increase significantly and the demand for nurses and nurse practitioners will continue to increase and remain strong."

Was this supposed to support your statement that there are nursing layoffs? I don't understand...


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

I'm not saying there is a shortage of jobs ,Some facilities are laying off staff to comply with aca guidelines . I'll try to get the link to work ,it's easy enough to just google "nursing layoffs " to see the results .


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Again, *your* link, "2014 when certain provisions of the *Affordable Care Act* take effect, health care spending will increase significantly and the *demand for nurses and nurse practitioners will continue to increase* and remain strong." It doesn't sound like Ultimatenurse.com indicates _any_ nursing layoffs due to ACA, in fact it indicates the exact opposite.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Well no matter What that site says Lay Offs Are Happening all over the country in direct action to ACA, to cut back the Losses that they are getting from Medicare Cuts. It is plain and simple as that. Whether or not nurses are or not But 300 to 600 just from some hospitals and others may even CLOSE. That is the reality as to what is taking place NOW, no matter what some site says is going to happen or not.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ason-emory-is-laying-off-101-staffers/279689/

"No, Obamacare Isn't the Reason Emory Is Laying Off 101 Staffers
Right-wing media are jumping at reports that the Affordable Care Act is forcing providers to cut jobs. But Emory says the move has nothing to do with the law."


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Not aimed at either side but I have some ocean front property in Arizona I would like to sell ya. To me it is frustrating to see people believing and buying into every little thing being put out there. Come on folks, do your research and not on here or youtube. Don't spread false info. This is what they want you to do. Some times I just scratch my head and think that we as a people have forgotten what common sense is.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

I got through the application process and digitally signed the application. Now they want proof of income, but I'm not sure what to give them. I signed up for Social Security online and agreed to go paperless, then have it direct deposited. I also am paperless at my bank. I have nothing to scan and upload to them.

I called the healthcare exchange and the agent doesn't know what I should use for income proof. She said a supervisor would call me back sometime today.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

ever thought of printing out a bank account page? even months of it?
You can pull it up in most bank on line pages. then down load or print screen to soft copy and send to her.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

AngieM2 said:


> ever thought of printing out a bank account page? even months of it?
> You can pull it up in most bank on line pages. then down load or print screen to soft copy and send to her.


I suppose I could do that, if I marked out other transaction information.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I got through the application process and digitally signed the application. Now they want proof of income, but I'm not sure what to give them. I signed up for Social Security online and agreed to go paperless, then have it direct deposited. I also am paperless at my bank. I have nothing to scan and upload to them.
> 
> I called the healthcare exchange and the agent doesn't know what I should use for income proof. She said a supervisor would call me back sometime today.


 You still must have the SS Statement that was sent to you telling you how much you get and what else is to be taken out if any.
That statement is your prove that is all I had to show, then once that was done they know from then on how much you get, if any raises have been added etc.









If not that you must have recieved a letter from SS telling you how much each month. And I get my SS check direct deposit.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> You still must have the SS Statement that was sent to you telling you how much you get and what else is to be taken out if any.
> That statement is your prove that is all I had to show, then once that was done they know from then on how much you get, if any raises have been added etc.
> 
> 
> If not that you must have recieved a letter from SS telling you how much each month. And I get my SS check direct deposit.


The only thing I got from them this year was a statement of benefit amount, advising me that I got a cost of living adjustment. I suppose I could scan that, but it's not a terribly official looking document.

UPDATE:

I created two pdf documents, one for income verification and another for citizenship verification, and tried to upload them. It said "invalid file extension". I saved it as a jpg file and tried again -- "invalid file extension" again.

I called the exchange and asked what file types it took, but she wasn't sure. She put me on hold. She came back and said to do pdf, but I told her that didn't work. Back on hold again. She came back and told me that it isn't working yet so I need to wait another day or two.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Nevada you might be on medicaid by the time you get through the exchange.

I reckon that is what happens when "the lowest, responsive, responsible bidder" is chosen to make the websites. 

They should have paid a little more and got better sites.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

sidepasser said:


> Nevada you might be on medicaid by the time you get through the exchange.
> 
> I reckon that is what happens when "the lowest, responsive, responsible bidder" is chosen to make the websites.
> 
> They should have paid a little more and got better sites.


Paid a little more? The State of Nevada paid Xerox $72 million to design & host the website and operate the call center. And that's for a state with less than 3 million residents.

http://www.informationweek.com/heal...-wins-contract-for-nevada-health-in/240007738

There's no excuse for this. Three days into this and the website still isn't operational. I can't think of a single legitimate excuse why this website wasn't 100% functional 3 or 4 months ago.

I'm wondering if Xerox has a political agenda and is screwing it up deliberately.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada 
You can go to healthcare.gov to learn more, and will eventually talk you to the exchange website for your state. Since you live in Arkansas you can click this link directly.

http://hbe.arkansas.gov/

That should help you a lot, but won't be fully functional until Tuesday.



Quote:
Originally Posted by farmrbrown 
Fully functional?
Now THAT'S a term subject to interpretation isn't it?
LOL


I couldn't resist quoting it again.
Xerox could have dropped the ball, they haven't done anything successful since the 70's maybe.
Wonder why someone would hire them if they couldn't cut the mustard anyway?


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Paid a little more? The State of Nevada paid Xerox $72 million to design & host the website and operate the call center. And that's for a state with less than 3 million residents.
> 
> http://www.informationweek.com/heal...-wins-contract-for-nevada-health-in/240007738
> 
> ...


Maybe Nevada should have just bought the insurance for all the residents instead of setting up the website!


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## k9 (Feb 6, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Paid a little more? The State of Nevada paid Xerox $72 million to design & host the website and operate the call center. And that's for a state with less than 3 million residents.
> 
> http://www.informationweek.com/heal...-wins-contract-for-nevada-health-in/240007738
> 
> ...


 Really? It's run by the government, you expected it to be run right?


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## Alice Kramden (Mar 26, 2008)

I am SO confused. I went to a calculator (not the .gov one) to put in my info just for kicks and giggles. 

When it asks for income, I don't know what to put. Reason: I get a retirement pension from where I used to work, and I do cleaning on the side as an independent contractor for a cleaning service. 

When I do my taxes, the pension is not taxed, so I put that total down for my anticipated 2014 income. Dollar amount is $7156. Its okay to say it out loud, no secrets are being revealed here.

What I make for cleaning is $4950. After expenses, I have -0- taxable income for that. 

Should I put both amounts in, or just the pension? 

Read on, and get this:

Putting in just the pension ($7156), single adult, no children, it gives me an unsubsidized (I am NOT eligible for subsidy because my income is below 100% of the federal poverty level) annual insurance premium of $6796.

Read it again: On income of $7156. I am expected to pay $6796 of it for insurance. That leaves me with $360 to live on for the year. 

Words cannot cover what I want to say right now. 

So, I wonder if I'm supposed to count both incomes, even though one is zero after expenses? 

http://kff.org/interactive/subsidy-calculator/

Here is the calculator if you want to play with it. 

I'm going to do some more inputting of numbers and see what's what. 

This is crazy.


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

quote Farmer Brown: Xerox could have dropped the ball, they haven't done anything successful since the 70's maybe.
Wonder why someone would hire them if they couldn't cut the mustard anyway?

Look at Obamas history of giving money to company's who are in trouble and waste the money, another example.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Alice Kramden said:


> Read it again: On income of $7156. I am expected to pay $6796 of it for insurance. That leaves me with $360 to live on for the year.


Those numbers look like what Medicaid takes when you go to live in a LTCF (Long Term Care Facility): The govt takes everything but $40 a month. 

No. Wait.

Your numbers are worse.

At least Medicaid leaves you with $1600/year.

We are so in trouble.


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## Liberty'sGirl (Jul 7, 2012)

Nevada said:


> A lot of doctors are embracing ACA.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkGGDOp4uUg


Not in Michigan/NWOhio they aren't.


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## mamita (May 19, 2008)

don't know where to ask, so here's my most likely stupid question of the day....I have Highmark BC/BS that we have always paid ourselves. (self-employed) yesterday I got a booklet from them to pick my policy. I recently already changed it, so now I'm confused. am I to do it again? (I know, a simple call would probably solve that one) being self-employed, we already have a tax write-off, so should I be looking at if a possible subsidy (sp?) is better than the tax write-off?


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Liberty'sGirl said:


> Not in Michigan/NWOhio they aren't.


Yeah, I hear ya.

Even though the post about "doctors embrace ACA" was on youtube (so it must be true, yah?) if you read the docs' online trade journals (eg Medscape), you'll see that a goodly number of them do NOT support or embrace it.

Tangentially: If you see anything that says the AMA endorses something, realize that the majority of docs do not belong to or endorse the AMA, and that AMA membership has been steadily (and more recently, rapidly) dropping.


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

Nevada, you should be able to access your statement through the SS administration.

Alice- for this purpose do enter your pension.

The problem that is coming into play with the lower income people- those below 100% of the poverty level, is that the bill was written with the intention that those in that income range would just go on Medicaid. They would need no subsidies and no need to purchase any insurance at all. However since the Supreme Court ruled that states could not be made to expand the Medicaid program, the states could opt out. About half of them have done that, thus there is a gap in coverage. Those who probably need help the most are just left out of the entire system- no subsides at all and no Medicaid coverage. I imagine something will be done to cover these people at some point, just wait and see. Ohio is still debating whether to expand Medicaid. From what I have read the states can opt in at any time, so many states may yet do so. Be patient!


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Pony said:


> Yeah, I hear ya.
> 
> Even though the post about "doctors embrace ACA" was on youtube (so it must be true, yah?) if you read the docs' online trade journals (eg Medscape), you'll see that a goodly number of them do NOT support or embrace it.
> 
> Tangentially: If you see anything that says the AMA endorses something, realize that the majority of docs do not belong to or endorse the AMA, and that AMA membership has been steadily (and more recently, rapidly) dropping.


That video was also made 6 months BEFORE the law passed, look at the date.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

farmrbrown said:


> That video was also made 6 months BEFORE the law passed, look at the date.


So that would show the huge difference between the expectation (before anyone knew what was in the bill) and after (what we know now that our elected officials voted for something sight unseen).

The sources _*I*_ cited are, of course, after the fact.

Except for the AMA. That's been going on for quite a while.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Melissa said:


> Nevada, you should be able to access your statement through the SS administration.


I should, but I can't get online access to ssa.gov because the online signup process keeps failing. The SSA support tech says that's because Experion is asking me bogus identity questions during the signup process. That's strange, after being told by Experion that they have no record of me a few days ago. I'll need to get a verification number from my field office after the shutdown is over to get online access.

Anyway, Proof of Income letters are not being issued by field offices during the shutdown. Without online access I'll have to wait on that.

This is one of my pet peeves. The entire purpose in maintaining a website is to reduce administrative time and costs by allowing people to do self-administration. If the website itself is creating support problems that cost them administrative resources, they need to rethink their website.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Pony said:


> Yeah, I hear ya.
> 
> Even though the post about "doctors embrace ACA" was on youtube (so it must be true, yah?) if you read the docs' online trade journals (eg Medscape), you'll see that a goodly number of them do NOT support or embrace it.
> 
> Tangentially: If you see anything that says the AMA endorses something, realize that the majority of docs do not belong to or endorse the AMA, and that AMA membership has been steadily (and more recently, rapidly) dropping.


The last statistics I saw said that only 17% of the doctors now belong to AMA- and that was a few years ago. They don't represent much any more.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Molly Mckee said:


> The last statistics I saw said that only 17% of the doctors now belong to AMA- and that was a few years ago. They don't represent much any more.


The AMA was never about quality of medical care for the public anyway. It's just a collective lobbying organization for doctors.


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

Here is a chart with Medicaid dollar amounts and which states are expanding:

http://www.medicaid.gov/AffordableC...and-CHIP-Eligibility-Levels-Table_HHsize2.pdf


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

OK, I got through the application process. They aren't requiring the upload of documents any longer. At any rate, I'm in!

:dance:

There is one plan that I can have for free. It's bronze plan with a $6500 deductible and doctor visits aren't covered. I want something better than that, but it's nice to know that I have a free option.

There are a few HMO plans in the $50 to $75 range that look really good. I've got time thing think about it though.

***Edited to Add***

I spoke too soon. The site is asking for documents again but I have a month to do it. In the meantime I've got access to shopping.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

In looking at the details, the plans are better than the summaries. The doctor copays in the summaries are only for seeing a doctor. There's a different price for seeing a practitioner, and it's a lot less. As it happens, I see a PA so I'll get the lower price.

I don't think I've ever seen a different price for seeing a PA or APN before.


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## Buffy in Dallas (May 10, 2002)

Melissa said:


> Here is a chart with Medicaid dollar amounts and which states are expanding:
> 
> http://www.medicaid.gov/AffordableC...and-CHIP-Eligibility-Levels-Table_HHsize2.pdf


Melissa, I'm in Texas and it says under Other Adults $0. What does that mean? I have to have 0 income? I can't get on medicaid at all? I don't have minor children so I assume I'm not counted as a "parent".

Under Parents it says $196. Does that mean you can't get on if you make over $196. a month???

That chart is really confusing!


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Nevada said:


> In looking at the details, the plans are better than the summaries. The doctor copays in the summaries are only for seeing a doctor. There's a different price for seeing a practitioner, and it's a lot less. As it happens, I see a PA so I'll get the lower price.
> 
> I don't think I've ever seen a different price for seeing a PA or APN before.


What makes you think you'll keep your doctor when many others can't ????


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## mamita (May 19, 2008)

I must say this, I've never witnessed more drama than with this healthcare plan. don't stone me, I have an opinion here. doctors aren't leaving. hospitals aren't closing. where do you people get this stuff from? if anything hospitals will love getting some percentage of costs that they've lost up to this point. doctors? oh please, they will still make their big bucks no matter what. any thinking otherwise is propaganda of some sort from who knows where at this point. as if this means people get some healthcare for free that is making hospitals tremble. people will pay. some may get help, poor will continue to get free. me? as the humble working peeps we've been paying all along on our own........nothing changes. I welcome the masses to our world that pays for insurance.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Grumpy old man said:


> What makes you think you'll keep your doctor when many others can't ????


The HMO plans that agree with me are through Health Plans of Nevada (HPN), which is what UnitedHealthcare calls itself in this state. My doctor has always been part of the HPN network.

This is looking really good. My subsidy is $497/month and the plans I'm liking are in the $550 to $570 per month range, so my share of the premium will be $50 to $70 per month. I can easily do that. There were never HMO plans like this at these prices before ACA.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

mamita said:


> I must say this, I've never witnessed more drama than with this healthcare plan. don't stone me, I have an opinion here. doctors aren't leaving. hospitals aren't closing. where do you people get this stuff from? if anything hospitals will love getting some percentage of costs that they've lost up to this point. doctors? oh please, they will still make their big bucks no matter what. any thinking otherwise is propaganda of some sort from who knows where at this point. as if this means people get some healthcare for free that is making hospitals tremble. people will pay. some may get help, poor will continue to get free. me? as the humble working peeps we've been paying all along on our own........nothing changes. I welcome the masses to our world that pays for insurance.


You might want to talk to people that are involved in medical care before you start making statements that are untrue. The hospitals that may close are closing because of changed government regulations, not because they choose to. Doctors are leaving, as well as retiring early. Since there is a shortage in primary care physicians this is a problem.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Molly Mckee said:


> Since there is a shortage in primary care physicians this is a problem.


Nurse practitioners will rise to the occasion. My PA is entirely competent and seems to have more time to spend listening to me than the docs to. I really don't think that's going to be a problem.


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## mamita (May 19, 2008)

Molly Mckee said:


> You might want to talk to people that are involved in medical care before you start making statements that are untrue. The hospitals that may close are closing because of changed government regulations, not because they choose to. Doctors are leaving, as well as retiring early. Since there is a shortage in primary care physicians this is a problem.


this may be where you are, so I won't argue. here.......no way. NO WAY. sorry, but I still think this is ridiculous. doctors will continue to get their big money, and hospitals will finally get to bill people with insurance. again, this may be something where you live, so I would not argue it. in my area..........this is the blessing for hospitals and doctors.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Paid a little more? The State of Nevada paid Xerox $72 million to design & host the website and operate the call center. And that's for a state with less than 3 million residents.
> 
> http://www.informationweek.com/heal...-wins-contract-for-nevada-health-in/240007738
> 
> ...


Maybe Obama wants it to screw up sooner than we think. He wants things bad so that he can take it over. Even You know he has another motive. Did you hear the thing they got on tape, the Park police were told to make things miserable for people ONpurpose.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mamita said:


> this may be where you are, so I won't argue.


I'm also reluctant to give anecdotal evidence about availability of doctors. We seem to be in pretty good shape with respect to having enough doctors around Las Vegas, but I have a friend who lives in NW Washington state and she says it can take months to get in to see a doctor around there. She says that a lot of people who have regular doctors still use the ER for illnesses because their doctors can't schedule appointments within a reasonable amount of time.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Here if you have Medicare, or even worse Medicaid you will find if almost impossible to fine a new doctor. Most will not take new patients with those for insurance. It is a serious problem here. Serious enough that the community has supported starting a medical school and normally they don't support anything that may cost money.

Mamita, I think you need to do some research. This is going hurt a lot of people, and I think this is starting to show up now with all the people that are losing their insurance and having to buy more expensive insurance on the exchanges or have their premiums go up so it is in compliance with ocare. Sticking your head in the sand and whistling isn't going to change anything.

I agree that NP's can take up some of the slack, however we will need more of them as well. I agree in most cases NP's or PA's are perfectly fine, but it takes education to make them.


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## Liberty'sGirl (Jul 7, 2012)

Nevada said:


> You want it to be totally free?


They said was going to be free. Did they forget to put a disclaimer to the lie?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Liberty'sGirl said:


> They said was going to be free. Did they forget to put a disclaimer to the lie?


Some people will get it free, but I never heard that we would all get it free. That wouldn't make sense. Where did you hear that?


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

Buffy in Dallas said:


> Melissa, I'm in Texas and it says under Other Adults $0. What does that mean? I have to have 0 income? I can't get on medicaid at all? I don't have minor children so I assume I'm not counted as a "parent".
> 
> Under Parents it says $196. Does that mean you can't get on if you make over $196. a month???
> 
> That chart is really confusing!


You are correct. Texas is not expanding Medicaid and the only way a parent with minor children can get on it is if the income is less than $196 a month, and adults with no minor children can't get on at all.


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## Liberty'sGirl (Jul 7, 2012)

Nevada said:


> Paid a little more? The State of Nevada paid Xerox $72 million to design & host the website and operate the call center. And that's for a state with less than 3 million residents.
> 
> http://www.informationweek.com/heal...-wins-contract-for-nevada-health-in/240007738
> 
> ...


THAT does explain why Harry Reid really wanted Obamacare to fly, a large corporation in his state got the contract. Why would Xerox mess up on purpose, it is business after all, is it not?


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

mamita said:


> I must say this, I've never witnessed more drama than with this healthcare plan. don't stone me, I have an opinion here. doctors aren't leaving. hospitals aren't closing. where do you people get this stuff from? if anything hospitals will love getting some percentage of costs that they've lost up to this point. doctors? oh please, they will still make their big bucks no matter what. any thinking otherwise is propaganda of some sort from who knows where at this point. as if this means people get some healthcare for free that is making hospitals tremble. people will pay. some may get help, poor will continue to get free. me? as the humble working peeps we've been paying all along on our own........nothing changes. I welcome the masses to our world that pays for insurance.


Where do I get the information about docs leaving? I work in the medical field.

Where do you get your information, especially about docs making "big bucks"? 

Your post shows that you either live in a very unusual corner of the world, or you're not paying attention.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Pony said:


> Where do you get your information, especially about docs making "big bucks"?


My father, uncle, and grandfather were all doctors. They did alright for themselves.


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## joebill (Mar 2, 2013)

All I see is that the federal government has hatched a plan whereby a lot of people are going to owe a lot of money that they don't have, therefore will not pay.

The differance will be made up by the taxpayers and others who purchase medical services.

That difffers from last year's system because..........Help me out, here, I'm stuck.

OH, I know, it's better now because the government is SO much better than the private sector at delivering services for reasonable prices.........That must be it.....Joe


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

joebill said:


> OH, I know, it's better now because the government is SO much better than the private sector at delivering services for reasonable prices.........That must be it.....Joe


Let's be clear here. The government is not providing any medical services through Obamacare. This is just a program to subsidize insurance premiums.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Lets also be clear--someone is going to pay for the insurance and all the layers of people to run it. It is not free.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> Let's be clear here. The government is not providing any medical services through Obamacare. This is just a program to subsidize insurance premiums.


Really?
I know Nancy didn't read it, but I did.
Over 2,000 pages long, and none of it regulates anything but insurance premiums?
No sections on specific medical care and procedures, who will get them and who will pay for it?
Is that your final answer?:indif:


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

Molly Mckee said:


> Here if you have Medicare, or even worse Medicaid you will find if almost impossible to fine a new doctor. Most will not take new patients with those for insurance. It is a serious problem here. Serious enough that the community has supported starting a medical school and normally they don't support anything that may cost money.


My parents had the opposite problem. My dad's company closed when he was 58 but he had enough in severance pay to last him to when he could collect retirement from them.

The insurance that they were able to afford once my mom's orthopedist retired and the insurance company did not have an orthopedist on their list of providers, so she was unable to get joint replacement till they were able to qualify for medicare a few years later.

I live in WV and there are tons of doctors here that accept medicare.

I also had a client that had a daughter with intractable seizures. She worked for the state but the state insurance mandated that if you could get the same tx in WV as another state that you had to go to the WV doctor.

Her doctor wanted her to take her daughter to UVA to see this specialist on seizures, but the insurance plan the state provided claimed that seeing this specialist in VA, who was a neurologist was the same as seeing her garden variety neurologist in WV so they wouldn't pay.

She and her husband both quit work, went on welfare, the kid got Medicaid and was able to see the specialist.

Around here unless you have really good insurance which most low income working people don't, you are better off to try to get Medicaid.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Hollowdweller said:


> I live in WV and there are tons of doctors here that accept medicare.


I don't know how they decide doctor shortages. I had no problem finding a doctor here in Las Vegas for Alma, and the first doctor we went to seemed eager to have her as a patient. That's in contrast to Elko, NV, where they are pretty selective.

But even with our good experience in finding a doctor, I keep hearing on the news about a severe doctor shortage. In fact the news last night did a spot on it.

http://www.mynews3.com/content/news...mary-care-doctors/Jmb8ZDwDaUShbLfiiUG7CQ.cspx

Maybe things have changed over the past 4 years when I got my doctor.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

Around here it is very difficult to find a doc that will accept Medicare or Medicaid patients.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Ambereyes said:


> Around here it is very difficult to find a doc that will accept Medicare or Medicaid patients.


They would if it was the only game in town.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Nevada said:


> They would if it was the only game in town.


Now that would be a " forced occupation " wouldn't it :smack


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

LOL, yeah I guess they would but that won't happen. Unless you know something we don't.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> She says that a lot of people who have regular doctors still use the ER for illnesses because their doctors can't schedule appointments within a reasonable amount of time.


DBF has Medicaid and twice this year he has had acute conditions that needed to be seen immediately (severe back pain, chest pains) and his PCP gave him the option of an appointment in 8 days, with the recommendation that he go to the ER if he couldn't wait.

I realize poor people are frequently blamed for going to the ER with a complaint that could be treated by their family doctor, but when your doctor tells you to just go to the ER ... ?


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

If your doctor tells you to go to the ER, then go to the ER. They will tell you that for several reasons, one being that they think they will send you to the hospital from the office anyway. 
If the doctor is around and wants to see you but the office is closed is another, or he wants another opinion and some tests. 

This is not the same as going in for a cold or a bandaid. This is one of the reasons to have an ER.


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## SeanInVa (Oct 3, 2013)

my experience from going to quick care and the ER for back and elbow pain - I was treated like I was just faking it looking for drugs. In one case, for back pain, I was admitted to a room and waited for over an hour while I saw several other patients who were admitted after I was, get seen first. I even heard two doctors walking by and looking in my room saying "nobody wants the easy one".

So I can really sympathize with those that can't get in to their PCP in a timely manner


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> They would if it was the only game in town.


Interesting.... What sort of situation would have to take place for medicare and/or medicaid to be "the only game in town"?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Interesting.... What sort of situation would have to take place for medicare and/or medicaid to be "the only game in town"?


Single payer.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Sure glad I have 3 Hospitals and Clinics to choose from.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> Sure glad I have 3 Hospitals and Clinics to choose from.


In all probability you could choose the same hospitals & clinics in a single payer system.

Single payer can be implemented in a number of ways. The Canadian system uses private providers who are paid by the government for services, while the system in England has clinics & hospitals operated by the government itself. I suspect that if we get single payer that it will be closer to the Canadian system.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

So you support Socialized Medicine then. Wow just wow, and you have called yourself a What? A person with libertarian leanings? WOW


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> So you support Socialized Medicine then. Wow just wow, and you have called yourself a What? A person with libertarian leanings? WOW


Actually, I didn't say that. As far as I'm concerned I don't care. I'll be covered by Obamacare and then Medicare for the rest of my life. I'll get all the socialized medicine I'll need.

But I don't believe that Obamacare will be financially sustainable in the long run without some kind of a cost control component. That will become apparent in 10 to 20 years. When that happens fundamental changes will be required. Single payer is the most obvious direction to go.

I don't object to socialized medicine any more than I object to socialized police & fire protection, socialized schools, and socialized highways. Medical care is an essential service, and private industry hasn't been meeting the public's medical needs. If there is another answer besides socialized medicine I'd like to hear it.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Actually, the system we had wasn't bad. With some expansion of medicaid to help more of the poor or temporarily unemployed and if you made it portable and covered pre-existing conditions it would work pretty well. I don't have a lot of sympathy for well educated people that decide they don't want to pay the cost of medical care and everyone else should help. I also don't have sympathy for the smokers who want us to pay for their insurance because they don't want to give up smoking or pay the added premium themselves. 

I don't think ocare will last 10-20 years with the current ways to pay for it. If all the ideas they had work as well as making the rich hospitals and doctors help pay we will be in serious trouble in a very few years.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Molly Mckee said:


> Actually, the system we had wasn't bad.


Any system that doesn't cover everyone is no system at all. The fact is that private enterprise is not providing an acceptable level of medical care for everyone, and it's not going to happen without government intervention. That's what we're finally seeing now.

Clearly, privately supported medical care has run its course. We tried it, and lots of people got wealthy, but it simply isn't meeting the needs of the American people.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

This is no improvement.

If people have the ability to pay for insurance or their medical care, I don't think the government has any reason to get involved. They have an obligation to be sure everyone has access to care, but why should the government decide on the care people can have ? This is going to be a huge mess, and who knows where your information will end up. The cost of government provided care that meets the current standards of care is prohibitive. Anything done by the gov't costs so much more than privately done things. They will add layers of bureaucracy, which cost so much and then hire so many people that don't care how their job is done. They can't get these exchanges working and people want them deciding who needs heart surgery? It may happen, but most people are going to be real unhappy


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Molly Mckee said:


> This is no improvement.
> 
> If people have the ability to pay for insurance or their medical care, I don't think the government has any reason to get involved. They have an obligation to be sure everyone has access to care


But that's just it, the government wasn't meeting that obligation. If everyone had access to medical care we wouldn't need the ACA.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

There is a difference between those that have access and don't want to pay for health care and those who don't have access to health care or really can not afford it. I think at this time next year we need to revisit this and see how happy people are and how it is working. 
Most of the people I know that think this is okay have not gotten the letter from their insurance company telling them how much more their premium will be next year. Those that have been told they will be paying 1/3 to 100% more are not happy.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Molly Mckee said:


> This is no improvement.
> 
> If people have the ability to pay for insurance or their medical care, I don't think the government has any reason to get involved. They have an obligation to be sure everyone has access to care, but why should the government decide on the care people can have ? This is going to be a huge mess, and who knows where your information will end up. The cost of government provided care that meets the current standards of care is prohibitive. Anything done by the gov't costs so much more than privately done things. They will add layers of bureaucracy, which cost so much and then hire so many people that don't care how their job is done. They can't get these exchanges working and people want them deciding who needs heart surgery? It may happen, but most people are going to be real unhappy


 Yes Fix so those 15% can Get Insurance but don't tear the whole system to pieces. And Don't make it Mandatory~!


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

Nevada said:


> Single payer.


Don't think that will happen. First thing is the huge amount of money that insurance companies have, second is the ability of these large powerful entities to in many instances control government decisions.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Ambereyes said:


> Don't think that will happen. First thing is the huge amount of money that insurance companies have, second is the ability of these large powerful entities to in many instances control government decisions.


I think single payer could happen in this country. In the first place it will be happening in the future, perhaps 10 to 20 years from now. That will be a generation from now, after the ACA starts to become unsustainable because of rising prices.

By that time demographics will have shifted so this country is much more democratic, and Americans will also be accustomed to the ACA. Taking it away from Americans will be as unthinkable as taking away Medicare today. When the ACA becomes expensive to the point of being unsustainable Americans will insist on a solution. They'll accept single payer if that's the only apparent solution.

Yes, the medical lobby will resist, and they'll even find friends in congress, but in the end ACA will be saved.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

IMHO we can all wish for utopia, won't happen. As to the makeup of government officials, I have absolutely no confidence in any change happening when it comes to influence purchasing by the powerful. In fact l feel it is going to get progressively worse.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> I think single payer could happen in this country. In the first place it will be happening in the future, perhaps 10 to 20 years from now. That will be a generation from now, after the ACA starts to become unsustainable because of rising prices.
> 
> By that time demographics will have shifted so this country is much more democratic, and Americans will also be accustomed to the ACA. Taking it away from Americans will be as unthinkable as taking away Medicare today. When the ACA becomes expensive to the point of being unsustainable Americans will insist on a solution. They'll accept single payer if that's the only apparent solution.
> 
> Yes, the medical lobby will resist, and they'll even find friends in congress, but in the end ACA will be saved.


Meanwhile, some of us will work on saving the nation we grew up in.
Let the revolution begin.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> Meanwhile, some of us will work on saving the nation we grew up in.


Some things about this country are worth saving, others aren't. Unaffordable health care isn't among those things worth saving.


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## Raymond James (Apr 15, 2013)

As to the doctor shortage - we sill see many more Health Care providers such as Physician Assistants, mid-wives and Nurse Practitioners. 

Many Doctors move to the US from other countries this trend will continue. 

We do need to open more nursing schools and increase class size . For that matter more Doctor, X- ray, laboratory , pharmacy , physician assistant schools are needed. 

We are however a first world country that can and will be able to do this.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> Read the rest of Article I section 8. When you get to the part about "there shall be no capitation tax" then we can start talking about what's "legal" in the eyes of your supreme leader.


Interestingly, that particular point was one of the few things the Supreme Court cleared-up about ACA constitutionality.

_In an editorial published by the Wall Street Journal in 2012, historian and author Dr. Paul Moreno argued that the requirement of all Americans to purchase health insurance or face a penalty could be construed as a direct tax that must be apportioned and thus unconstitutional. *Chief Justice John Roberts rejected this reasoning* and this rationale was not cited in any dissenting Justice's opinions._
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_pe...E_WALL_STREET_JOURNAL_.2807.2F06.2F2012.29-10


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Actually, he hasn't. The ACA was passed by congress, and it was the Constitution that declared the right of congress to confiscate your income for its purposes. Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1:
> 
> _The Congress shall have power To lay and collect Taxes_
> 
> Since Congress passed the ACA, it's constitutionally authorized. Congress' authorization to tax was not Obama's doing.


I think you are looking at the wrong end of the equation.... Nobody is questioning congress's power to impose taxes.... (of course those arguing this issue in front of the SC insisted that it wasnt a tax, but rather it was a penalty and that they had written it that way on purpose).... would you care to show us the article and section that grants them the authority to spend any money for any charitable cause?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> would you care to show us the article and section that grants them the authority to spend any money for any charitable cause?


The way the law is written the health care insurance subsidy is really a tax credit. I think the IRS can distribute tax credits to anyone it wants to. Interestingly, those on the right are typically big fans of tax credits. But this tax credit is different from most; in that it's a tax credit for the poor & middle class. Still, it's strange to see conservatives and republicans opposing a tax credit.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> But that's just it, the government wasn't meeting that obligation. If everyone had access to medical care we wouldn't need the ACA.


Ok, a couple questions here. 

First... Why is any government "obligated" to insure anyone has access to medical care? 

Second... Which government... assuming you can answer the previous question... is under this obligation? County? State? Federal? If federal, please point to the article and section of our Constitution that would remotely suggest such an obligation, or grant it the authority to provide such access.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> The way the law is written the health care insurance subsidy is really a tax credit. I think the IRS can distribute tax credits to anyone it wants to. Interestingly, those on the right are typically big fans of tax credits. But this tax credit is different from most; in that it's a tax credit for the poor & middle class. Still, it's strange to see conservatives and republicans opposing a tax credit.


Are you trying to suggest to us that under this law, everyone is required to hump up the full amount of their premiums.... and get a credit at tax time in the form of "tax relief"? If that is the case, then yes, its a tax credit... and YOU will have to pay full price of your health care premiums all year long. If the government picks up your tab all year long on the difference of those 53 dollar premiums to bring them up to the full real price then its just a subsidy... or gift or charity by any other name.... but certainly not a tax credit.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Interestingly, that particular point was one of the few things the Supreme Court cleared-up about ACA constitutionality.
> 
> _In an editorial published by the Wall Street Journal in 2012, historian and author Dr. Paul Moreno argued that the requirement of all Americans to purchase health insurance or face a penalty could be construed as a direct tax that must be apportioned and thus unconstitutional. *Chief Justice John Roberts rejected this reasoning* and this rationale was not cited in any dissenting Justice's opinions._
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_pe...E_WALL_STREET_JOURNAL_.2807.2F06.2F2012.29-10


I think its pretty obvious that Justice Roberts grasped at some pretty thin straws to come up with his "opinion", and I think you know it too. As I have stated many times here, those good attorneys who argued hard and long to get this thing passed the SC argued that point heavily... insisting that it was NOT a tax, in any form.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Are you trying to suggest to us that under this law, everyone is required to hump up the full amount of their premiums.... and get a credit at tax time in the form of "tax relief"?


Yes, you can opt to have it done either way. You can pay your entire premium throughout the year then apply for a refund from the IRS at the end of the year. Alternatively, you can assign the tax credit to go directly to the insurance company and only pay the difference each month. I suspect that since they aren't offering an interest credit for waiting until the end of the year that nearly everyone will opt to assign the tax credit to the insurance company.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I think its pretty obvious that Justice Roberts grasped at some pretty thin straws to come up with his "opinion", and I think you know it too. As I have stated many times here, those good attorneys who argued hard and long to get this thing passed the SC argued that point heavily... insisting that it was NOT a tax, in any form.


I thought the mandatory provision was in trouble also, but now that it's passed the Supreme Court it's the law of the land. I see changes coming to the ACA in the future, but the program is here to stay.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Yes, you can opt to have it done either way. You can pay your entire premium throughout the year then apply for a refund from the IRS at the end of the year. Alternatively, you can assign the tax credit to go directly to the insurance company and only pay the difference each month. I suspect that since they aren't offering an interest credit for waiting until the end of the year that nearly everyone will opt to assign the tax credit to the insurance company.


Hmmm since I have no tax liability due to low income I see no need for a tax credit. This looks like nothing more than a handout. If it looks like a duck...


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Hmmm since I have no tax liability due to low income I see no need for a tax credit. This looks like nothing more than a handout. If it looks like a duck...


Sounds like you will qualify for a subsidy under the ACA.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

I think enough has been said.


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