# Studding out your male LGD: when to say no?!



## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Well this is not an advice post at all just sharing an experience I had today, and how important it is for me personally, to listen to my gut .

A good friend asked me as a favor to talk to another friend of hers who has an LGD cross female coming into heat; apparently she wants to breed her. My phone number was given to her. She called me.

She has no livestock only chickens. This LGD cross was given to her. She does not guard, I found out, and last night when the neighbors' dog came in and killed 15 chickens, she did absolutely nothing to stop him.

But his gal wants to breed her. "Why?" I asked. "We'll keep one pup and sell the rest. My children like to be around puppies and kittens in fact my cat just had another litter."

"Oh really," I say..."You'll be up to your ears in even more kittens soon."

"Well not really the coyotes seem to kill them off pretty fast."
:run:

Well I told her when she was closer to being ready call me to make arrangements.

Since talking to her, I have now decided.....NO WAY.

This was being done as a 'favor' for my friend but the more I mulled it over, I have decided there is no way I can do this.

1. Bringing an unknown female over here in my 'nunnery' (an empty garage separate and fenced off from part of my place) to be bred by one of my prized males, will leave said male high as a kite for days afterward. I can be guaranteed numerous dog fights with the rest of my intact males who will also be wanting a peice of the action.

2. I'm already wondering about a dog who let an intruder kill fifteen chickens and didn't do a thing to stop him. Nevermind the male I had in mind is a kick butt LGD....he's only half the equation. So if three pups come out as losers, who don't guard, guess who owned the father? Guess who's rep is on the line? ME and my kennel name!!!

3. The dog who'd have been the stud, is a solid LGD, I wouldn't take anything less than a grand for him, yet she wants to pay me price of one pup to her for stud service. The more I thought about this, no way....

4. The cavalier "I want puppies for my kids to play with" scares me. In other words IRRESPONSIBLE.

5. I have struggled to get my breeding program off the ground for over a year now, and have a huge investment in dogs from overseas. Can I afford an unknown like this? NO.

I'm kicking myself that I didn't say NO at first anyway but I'll call her tomorrow, and drop the bomb then. Favors or no favors. My name is on the line. Her ***** could be carrying something and I have two litters on the ground here, one as yet unvaccinated. God forbid she'd bring over something my dogs would catch.

So do you guys think I'm being too picky or did I see the light and do what you'd probably done too? Just curious. These are the things that I have to deal with! Breeding dogs is a lot of work. I put my heart, soul and love into it. I take it seriously, I guess I expect the same out of a customer or someone wanting to breed to my males....

Appreciate feedback! Just more of a "I needed to blow off steam" thread!!!


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## dranger1108 (Aug 7, 2010)

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2765/can-dogs-get-venereal-disease
tell her she needs to have her dog tested for brucellosis before mating. Most likely she'll not want to pay for a vet visit.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

It sounds as though she's wanting to sell LGD pups. Most around here sell for $200+ and goodness I haven't known a GP around here to throw less than 10 pups. She'll most likely advertise the mother as a working LGD and then of course she'll brag the father is a high quality, very expensive LGD and drop your name on top of it. 

If she wants a puppy, she should buy a true LGD.


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

dranger1108 said:


> http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2765/can-dogs-get-venereal-disease
> tell her she needs to have her dog tested for brucellosis before mating. Most likely she'll not want to pay for a vet visit.


exactly what i was going to suggest. If you want to take it farther you can require a hard copy of current vaccines, rabies, distemper parvo combo, AND kennel cough. That alone should have her looking elsewhere.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> an LGD *cross* female coming into heat


That one word is enough to stop me from even considering it.

There are too many MUTTS in the world already


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

We got our LGD fixed as soon as possible. Less chance of the urge to roam. 

I think you have made a wise decision in saying no.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Goatress said:


> So do you guys think I'm being too picky or did I see the light and do what you'd probably done too? Just curious.


Absolutely you are doing the right thing by saying NO. It's in the best interest of everyone: You, the dogs, the breed. I dearly hope this nutcase lady gets her mutt ***** spayed...but you know she'll probably let her get pregnant by whatever male jumps her fence, since her kids just want to play with puppies.  

This female is worthless as a guardian and breeding animal. Don't sully your kennel name by producing worthless pups; even if some of them turned out okay as guardians, there would likely be several washouts that will give you a bad name. There are enough dogs in the world already; only the best should be bred, IMO.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

You guys thank you so much...you know today when I was on the phone with her I was thinking about other things and not so focused, its like I almost said yes just to get rid of her...then ten minutes later I am thinking Oh God what have I just done!!!! And thank you too for brucellosis tip yes didn't even think of that. You confirmed I made right decision folks thanks again. That is really what I like about this forum there is sincere effort from all to get along and give helpful suggestions and enjoy each other and to learn. I am very happy I found it and am glad now someone I met on another forum has come here too. 

Thanks again.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Goatress said:


> So do you guys think I'm being too picky or did I see the light and do what you'd probably done too?


The puppies on the ground would have kept me from letting a strange dog come over unless I knew they were vaccinated. Other than that, it wouldn't bother me at all. If your male knows how to be an LGD and guard livestock, then you would be giving her a gift because a puppy might have that instinct born in that way. It wouldn't cost you anything to allow your dog to date hers. And sometimes, being kind is the best option. "Giving" is the way God does things. And, with LGDs, you can be reasonably sure they will find a home unless the owner greatly overprices them. There are lots of plusses to allow the female to come visit your male, mainly because it is the way Jesus does things. He gives.
But since you have puppies, I could certainly understand not wanting to introduce new disease/parasites into your property. I would explain it to her though in a very gentle manner.
And we all need to be careful about looking down on others as "not as good as" we are. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. This lady is in need of a decent LGD. She has children who need to learn about care of puppies. She is needy. That doesn't mean she is "less than" a professional dog breeder. It simply means she is in need to learn and experience some grace from someone who has the ability/time to teach her. You can simply explain that you can't do that right now because you have puppies you must protect from any possibility of any disease.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

dranger1108 said:


> http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2765/can-dogs-get-venereal-disease
> tell her she needs to have her dog tested for brucellosis before mating. Most likely she'll not want to pay for a vet visit.


That's a very good answer. And it's understandable. Protecting your dogs from disease is important.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

I beleive in being kind to others but so much is on the line here for me; she stands to gain, I stand to gain nothing and possibly loose my hard-earned reputation if the pups come out as non-guarding, or my litters get exposed to something and die. There is also a great chance some pups will come out as duds, he can't carry the whole gene load himself, there has to be good going on with her as well; if they are duds....there goes my dog's rep and mine both. The disease factor was a biggie; parvo runs rampant here. She was given this dog, knows nothing of the parents. Just too much risk here at stake. And I've said no.


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## Olivia67 (Mar 6, 2008)

Always trust your instincts!!! I would have said no too-


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I'd have said no and I've got no kennel or reputation - the only reason my male beagle isn't fixed yet is because a cat always comes up that needs spaying and gets his spot (lol, and it's usually not even _my_ cat - they all just want to have kittens here) I've turned down a couple of folks who wanted to breed to him (actually never said yes to anyone, he's just not good enough - but that's beside the point)

This woman does not need any more animals in her care. 
And if I was going to get biblical about it I'd be thinking more along the lines of "pearls before swine" and "a virtuous man regardeth the life of his beast"

You definitely did the right thing.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

And *if* you went along and mama had ten pups... let's say half take after mom in the useless as LGD dept... and it gets around that your dog threw a litter of 50-50? Eeek, no. Personally, I'd feel a bit sick/guilty if someone got one of the pups, trusted it to watch their stock, and it ate the chickens or turned a blind eye while coyotes killed the goats. Y'know? I let the litter happen and stamped it with my approval by allowing my male to father the pups.

Besides, it's expensive to raise a litter. Just food for a pregnant mama alone can be shocking... add in the rest of it and you do her no favors. I doubt more than 75% of the pups would survive to weaning, and I think I'm being generous with that.

All she wants is her unspayed female to have puppies. It's spring. she'll get her wish.


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## laughaha (Mar 4, 2008)

I don't have an LGD (our circumstances don't allow for one at this time, maybe once we have the goats) but there is no way I would have done this. You would be putting all of your dogs at considerable risk for all sorts of nasties.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

mekasmom said:


> If your male knows how to be an LGD and guard livestock, then you would be giving her a gift because a puppy might have that instinct born in that way. .... There are lots of plusses to allow the female to come visit your male, mainly because it is the way Jesus does things. He gives.
> 
> ... And we all need to be careful about looking down on others as "not as good as" we are. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. This lady is in need of a decent LGD. She has children who need to learn about care of puppies. She is needy. That doesn't mean she is "less than" a professional dog breeder.


How in the world does religion enter into this? We're not talking about someone who needs food or shelter, we're talking about a woman who thinks she wants an iffy litter of large mutt puppies that may or may not have any instinct as an LGD. Chances are some of them will wind up in a shelter because they will not guard livestock. Chances are some of them will end up getting loose and shot or hit by a car. Chances are some of them will end up killing someone's valuable livestock. Jesus and God aren't doing much to help any of that, but we humans can, if we so choose.

This has nothing to do with "looking down" on people. It has everything to do with prevention of disease, curbing the pet overpopulation problem, and protecting one's reputation.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Meka's Mom, it's not about being arrogant, it's about being responsible. If this woman wants a puppy, she would be smarter to go to the shelter and get a puppy.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

You guys are all right....I was so distracted by other things when talking to her had major brain and common sense 'fart'!!!! LOL!!!! Do you ever do that? Say yes to someone and ten minutes later its like...uh, WAIT....what did I just get myself into!!!??? LOL....I know I'm tired and overwhelmed with stuff (two litters!) when I make judgment errors on something this obviously 'no way should I do this...'. Anyhow your comments helped me because I did have that brief moment of thinking maybe I was being too picky or hung up on stuff. And I sure don't disrespect her or look down on her but I do think she's got no biz breeding that female. Heck yes it is expensive too when done correctly, dog food, shots, deworming, time....etc etc!!!!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> she would be smarter to* go to the shelter and get a puppy*.


Since religion was mentioned I'll just say:

*AMEN!*


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

I know our local Great Pyreneese rescue adopts dogs out for about $200. These are adults, spayed/nuetered, up on their shots, and have already been tested if they are livestock worthy or just pets in need of a good fence.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

I didn't post my response "looking down" but more along the sense of common sense.

She is needy of a LGD. She is not needy of a litter of 10-15 puppies that will eat an extraordinary amount of food in the _2 years _it takes them to maybe or maybe not become 'okay' livestock guardians. Add in the costs of puppy shots and vaccines. She is gambling, with her time and money and with goatress' name. She will be much better off purchasing a single puppy from a tried and true breeding, if she cannot afford to buy a puppy, spay and neuter her dogs and cats, then how is she going to pay to raise a litter of puppies? What if something were to go wrong with the birthing?

I believe you did the right thing. You have a duty to protect your animals first. If I were breeding LGDs, I would not want my name possibly associated with a litter of unpredictable and unreliable dogs. If she lets her cats reproduce unchecked and lets the local coyotes control the population, what happens when that litter of puppies mature and sons start breeding sisters and mother?


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## Olivia67 (Mar 6, 2008)

Goatress, yes that does happen to me too. Somehow when it's a friend who asks on behalf of someone else, my common sense goes out the window too. That's why when I send a customer or connection or whatever to a friend's door for whatever reason, I always tell the person/friend what I know or don't know about the person so at least my friend will use her common sense and not just do a favor or deal with a person who rubs them the wrong way, it's my way of saying, hey, here's some business or a connection but use your judgement and don't worry about what I think-I'll be your friend no matter what you do with this 3rd party. I think it's a woman thing but I may be wrong, maybe it's just me.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

I will not provide stud service to anyone I wouldn't sell a puppy to, and I wouldn't sell a puppy to her. Dogs need to be protected, not tossed out to someone that you already know is an irresponsible pet owner.

I will not provide stud service unless the ***** has OFA hips and elbows, a Von Willdebrands and thyroid certificate and a CERF. I would bet that woman has not had her ***** tested. This is to protect the innocent buyers of those puppies, so they don't end up with an expensive cripple and a broken heart.

If I breed, I am responsible for the lives created. I actually give a life time stud dog's guarantee for any pups my dogs sire, and I could not ever guarantee her mutt pups, out of a mutt ***** who isn't capable of doing her job and has had no genetic testing.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

LGD's are the new hot fad in pet dogs, goodbye blue merle cattledogs. (Thank you Jesus for the last part, at least.) The mix around here is - get ready - golden labs. "Makes a dog just like a palamino pony!" I see them tied up in front yards in town. Sad.


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

I have Std Poodles I have had many people come along wanting to breed their ***** to them. Bear in mind my deceased male was only bred once in his life his son will maybe br bred 1-2 tiems total. 

I always would ask about the pedigree and registation of their *****, then all the health testing that should be done, then of course the brucelossis, and then we need to discuss the stud fee. usually after I yakked at them for 45 minutes they couldnt get off the phoen fast enough and I would never hear from them again..LOL

You are right that sometimes you get distracted by "freinds"(in my case nameless cleints) giving out your dogs services but in the end it will be your reputation and your dogs names on thsoe puppies and who knows they might end up in puppy mills then your name will be worthless in your breed realm.

Caution is always neccesary esp when dealing with people who are clueless about time, investment and ethics in breeding. Call her back and tell her you have reconsidered studding your dog out.


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## sticky_burr (Dec 10, 2010)

thats what i was thinking .. ask for the complete medical history and tests of the parents and etc etc. need to make sure that we are making good dogs not just puppies


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## Immaculate Sublimity (Apr 30, 2003)

Wolf Flower said:


> How in the world does religion enter into this? We're not talking about someone who needs food or shelter, we're talking about a woman who thinks she wants an iffy litter of large mutt puppies that may or may not have any instinct as an LGD. Chances are some of them will wind up in a shelter because they will not guard livestock. Chances are some of them will end up getting loose and shot or hit by a car. Chances are some of them will end up killing someone's valuable livestock. Jesus and God aren't doing much to help any of that, but we humans can, if we so choose.
> 
> This has nothing to do with "looking down" on people. It has everything to do with prevention of disease, curbing the pet overpopulation problem, and protecting one's reputation.


But WolfFlower..... We've already travelled this road with mekasmom - everyone has the right to the dog of their dreams. Remember? This is where we start putting in our orders for single puppy litters just to appease those looking for the dog of their dreams - the rest of the puppies ( if the one puppy order doesnt work)- we send to her house


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## Laurie J (Mar 9, 2005)

Sorry, but this post made me mad! People who are so irresponsible and think that animals are disposable really burn me! This "friend of a friend" thinks a batch of puppies would be cute and fun, but does she realize that she would be bringing probably 10 pups into the world that will live an average of 10 years, just for a few weeks of "fun" for her children?!? And the cat comment.....sickening that people think that pets are so easily replaced! Also proves she's got a worthless guardian dog, if the cats keep disappearing! Just the kind of LGD that needs to reproduce! Sheesh!

I agree with the fact that disease is easily transferred, also. Our Great Pyr puppy isn't leaving our place to even go to the vet for her first checkup until she's received all of her shots from us first. We don't raise puppies, but we do raise sheep and cattle, and loaning out our bull or rams isn't even a consideration. You've done the right thing in telling her no!!!


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## lockhart76 (Jul 31, 2011)

WOW!! Not sure what happened Goatress but in case you are in doubt, reread this thread.
This thread seems to have really spiralled out of control. Goattress, give your head a shake, this is simply not the action of a responsible breeder to tender out your stud to a ***** of questionable quality. As breeders (of all livestock: sheep/cattle/dogs) we should be striving with each mating to improve our product. Otherwise, perhaps you should not be a breeder. No need to sugarcoat this for the individual either with a long discussion of vet tests. Perhaps what she needs is a gentle education. She simply might not realize why you would not be comfortable or that your dog even varies from hers. Let her know why you are not comfortable with this mating in plain language. 

And mekasmom, I am not sure what your religious affiliation is or what belief system you subscribe to. However, as a wretched sinner who has found salvation through Jesus Christ and his redemptive work on the cross I must let you know that the Gospel you are describing is not theologically sound, nor is it the Truth. It is with love that I am telling you that what you said in your post is ridiculous. Do not oversimplify the Gospel to make Jesus sound like a mere kind individual who 'gives' esp. in relation to a litter of mongrel puppies. Your use of 'Jesus', 'gives', 'kind' and 'grace' are inappropriate.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Wow you are digging up ancient threads, eh? This is ancient (back in April!) - but let me shout it one more time, I did NOT let the person breed their female to my male. OK? It didn't happen! As for the religious spin off this thread took, I was not aware of that because I didn't come back in and participate in that, and did not even read most of it and don't care to delve into people's personal spiritual lives on an LGD board.... :nono: To each his own... :thumb:

Maybe you could start a new thread on what should be bred and not - ouch boy that will probably open a can of worms here, eh? LOL....


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## noeskimo (Mar 17, 2011)

lasergrl said:


> exactly what i was going to suggest. If you want to take it farther you can require a hard copy of current vaccines, rabies, distemper parvo combo, AND kennel cough. That alone should have her looking elsewhere.


Don't forget OFA certification.


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