# Hypothetical New Zealand Rabbit genetics question



## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

What would you get if you bred an NZ red to an NZ black? What colors are liable to pop up? I think for the most part breeders keep the colors apart, but what if someone were to cover a black with a red.

I'm still trying to grasp color genetics and figured there are a couple people on here who are excellent at it. The closest google has gotten me was where an ND site said to breed red and red and left it at that. Wasn't very helpful.

Would the cross produce black kits that are carriers of red?


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## XLT (Apr 7, 2005)

I have been told that the majority would be chestnut agouti. I am in the same boat. I have a NZR doe, but no red buck. 

Trying to keep the red color in the herd.

So, I have been told to take a chestnut agouti offspring buck and breed him back to his dam which should result in red offspring, from which I would select a new buck.

I have since found a NZR breeder within a few hours drove away, but she won't have anything until about April. So I am following the plan anyway, but anticipating that I will acquire a buck sometime this year.


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## moonkitten (Mar 4, 2005)

Ah, I see this question a lot and the answer is pretty complicated 

The genetics that create a red are VERY different from what creates a black. The red rabbit is an agouti (A_ --meaning the fur shaft has a ring pattern) and has double recessives in the 'e' and 'w' which eliminates everything except the orange/red from the hair shaft. Then there's those rufous modifiers that make the orange shade a really gorgeous red.... 

Black doesn't have any of these things, so you definitely won't get a red out of a first generation cross. You will most likely get chestnut agouti (that brownish wild type coloration). If the red is a self carrier (Aa - meaning it probably had a black or white ancestor at some point) then you could also get blacks with a nice red tint to the fur. The red tint is due to inheriting a few of those rufous modifiers.

And lastly, if both rabbits are carrying 'c' (they had a white ancestor somewhere along the line) then you might get a few whites.

Confused yet? 

As far as kits that carry red.... well red is not a single gene, it's a combination of A, ee, ww, plus some rufous. So you need to choose a kit that best exemplifies those. All the kits will get one 'e' and one 'w' from the red parent, so just pick the one with the best rufous (red tint). If you use the chestnut agout then you know the kit also has one 'A' so you will get MORE chances for red in the next generation. If you use the black with red tints, you are using a self rabbit (aa) and will have LESS chance of red in the next generation (remember, red needs A not a).


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

I knew it was complicated due to the red. LOL

So I guess here's the point I'm wondering, how long would it be to get reds?

What happens when you cross a chestnut agouti to a red? And so on and so forth. 

I just knew someone here would know their stuff, didn't expect an answer so quickly, but I'm sure not going to complain! LOL


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## moonkitten (Mar 4, 2005)

wolffeathers said:


> So I guess here's the point I'm wondering, how long would it be to get reds?
> 
> What happens when you cross a chestnut agouti to a red?


It depends on what the chestnut agouti is carrying. I mean, if you bought a chestnut agouti rabbit without knowing it's background, it could just be A_B_C_D_E_ which wouldn't help at all. If the chestnut is from a red-black cross, then you KNOW it's got the necessary 'e' and 'w' and hopefully some rufous.

So your next gen of the *cross* chestnut to a red should produce some "reddish" kits if the genes line up correctly. Since gene passing in a single breeding is relatively random, it is *possible* that the chestnut parent passes 'E' rather than 'e' to all the kits and you end up with more chestnuts. In my experience there is usually a couple who get the correct combination and end up as reds. The depth of red depends on how many rufous modifiers got passed from both parents. You may need to do another generation to get a deep red, but there should be something to work with in the second generation.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

That is very interesting, I'll have to pass it along.

The breeder in question raises them for consumption only, so I was curious and wanted to play the "what if" game before actually seeing what their results were(I get impatient).

Thank you moonkitten!


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## moonkitten (Mar 4, 2005)

wolffeathers said:


> Thank you moonkitten!


No problem. I've been trying to produce broken red NZ for about the last 14 months. I did try importing broken reds from the US, but both times the rabbit died before reaching breeding age (I find reds in general to be fairly susceptible to stress/illness). 

So I've been crossing broken blacks to reds again and again and again. Not only do I need the right combination of e,w and rufous passed to the offspring, I'm also trying to get the broken gene and enough +/- modifiers to produce decent pattern. Needless to say, it's taking a while, but I am well acquainted with the results of blackxred pairings


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

moonkitten said:


> No problem. I've been trying to produce broken red NZ for about the last 14 months. I did try importing broken reds from the US, but both times the rabbit died before reaching breeding age (I find reds in general to be fairly susceptible to stress/illness).
> 
> So I've been crossing broken blacks to reds again and again and again. Not only do I need the right combination of e,w and rufous passed to the offspring, I'm also trying to get the broken gene and enough +/- modifiers to produce decent pattern. Needless to say, it's taking a while, but I am well acquainted with the results of blackxred pairings


I guess that's the trade off for trying to breed for something so specific and having to inbreed so closely to get it. You get into animals that lack vigor and have to breed back out and then start the whole process all over again.

How many generations are you into your project? Get any really nice rabbits(nice as in what you're aiming for)?


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## moonkitten (Mar 4, 2005)

wolffeathers said:


> How many generations are you into your project? Get any really nice rabbits(nice as in what you're aiming for)?


I'm primarily a meat breeder who attends a couple of shows a year, so I have lots of room to play with non-showable crosses that are still good eating  As a result I have a second gen broken buck and doe that have lots of rufous but far too much colour vs white (need more - modifiers) and 2 different first gens that I am experimenting with. I've got a decent chestnut buck with good pattern, but no rufous. A broken black doe who carries 'e' and 'w' with lots of rufous but again, not enough - modifiers.

I'm going to cross these together and/or with my red bucks to see what comes next. I'm also trying to maintain type as I go, so that limits my choices even further.


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## hotzcatz (Oct 16, 2007)

Here's a page on rabbit color genetics:

http://www.angorahouse.com/angora%20rabbit%20genetics.htm 

Although it's listed as Angora rabbit genetics, I'd guess it would be pretty similar for NZ. I just got a white NZ last month who thinks he's an angora. He's got the angora coat even though both parents are normal NZ. I'm letting him grow his coat out to see if he will become a "New Zealand Angora" when he's grown.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

This is interesting. I raise NZW for meat but I have 2 NZR does (one I suspect has a little flemish giant in her). I bred them to one of my NZW bucks and got a few NZW with red eyes, a few NZR with brown eyes and some Broken reds. I need some information on standards for the reds and the brokens.


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## Cheribelle (Jul 23, 2007)

:bow: To any of you that have a clue what all this is about. 

Genetics escape me, almost completely.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

moonkitten said:


> I'm also trying to maintain type as I go, so that limits my choices even further.


Keep at it, that golden combination will pop up at some point. 

Genetics, it's like the lottery. LOL


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## Terry W (Mar 10, 2006)

wolffeathers said:


> I knew it was complicated due to the red. LOL


 Redheads ARE extremely complicated:duel:

Great genetics question, and lesson as a result!


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## AugustRED (Apr 18, 2010)

So I just bought a NZR doe & bred her to my NZW buck thinking I'll get some of each (and maybe a black or two) but now thinking that may not be the case? Well at least I learned that before they came out looking strange & had me panicking that somehow the parents wheren't purebreds. I just lost my NZB doe (who I always bred to the NZW) & always figured she wasn't a purebred because the red babies came out different shades w/ some black hair (chestnut), still not convinced she was pure but sounds like it's possible? I was thinking of getting another NZB doe to have one of each color but is it just going to result in a bunch of unNZ looking kits? Wow, my bubble has been burst, here I thought NZ's where all pretty related, so it's almost like 3 separate breeds? Slighlty disappointed but now looking forward even more to the coming litter to see what I get...


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## XLT (Apr 7, 2005)

well, breeding my NZ Red doe with my NZ Black buck resulted in 1 black and six red kits (the black and one red kit were stillborn).... 

so give it a shot 


Pics posted here...

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=6659317&l=3ab5472e0b&id=554411851


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Precious picture!


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

I now have another litter from a NZR doe and a NZW buck. This time I got 2 whites, 2 reds, 2 broken reds, and a red with a mohawk of white on top of his head. LOL hmmm


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## AugustRED (Apr 18, 2010)

Well my NZR doe kindled & the result was 3 reds & 5 dark chestnuts? Unfortunately she stomped them at almost a week old (will be fencing in the hutches now as I think the new puppies may have been the reason), they were just getting hair so not sure what the darker ones would have turned out to be(maybe black???), hopefully better luck with the next litter. But as a side note the 3 reds were born with pink skin (like a white) & the other 5 had black skin although underside of bellies & feet were pink...


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## moonkitten (Mar 4, 2005)

AugustRED said:


> Well my NZR doe kindled & the result was 3 reds & 5 dark chestnuts? Unfortunately she stomped them at almost a week old (will be fencing in the hutches now as I think the new puppies may have been the reason), they were just getting hair so not sure what the darker ones would have turned out to be(maybe black???), hopefully better luck with the next litter. But as a side note the 3 reds were born with pink skin (like a white) & the other 5 had black skin although underside of bellies & feet were pink...


Sounds like the 5?? were chestnut agouti (wild-type colouring).


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