# Wolf killing livestock, what night scope?



## gimpy (Sep 18, 2007)

we're about a thousand miles from wolf country but some db city yokel seems to have dumped what I believe to be a wolf/dog hybrid. From the tracks and scat it's mostly been taking rabbits from the scrubby areas. I've seen it twice, once from a distance and once up close where it was clearly deciding if it was worth attacking me. I never heard it make a step or breathe, it was freaky quiet. I had a shovel. It ran into the brush when I raised the shovel in a defense posture. I figured that if it charged my best bet would be to try to jab it in the mouth to break teeth. If I missed I might take out an eye. A few days later it killed all our chickens and mother goose during the day. 2 days ago, woke up to find its tracks on our porch. So far our dogs seem to be keeping it out of the pasture. The birds were outside the pasture fence. I estimate this thing to be about 180 pounds and at least 6 inches taller and wider than our maremma who guards the other livestock inside the fence.

Started closing the driveway gate at night, though I imagine this thing can probably jump it. Started carrying either a rifle or pistol with me at all times as well as a knife, depending upon what else I need to carry. I can only carry so much. Got a game camera to set up to prove to the game warden that I'm not imagining it. I was thinking of getting a night scope for one of the rifles and have basically a night rifle and a day rifle. There is a gun shop that can attach it and even sight it in, but I don't know what kind of scope. I've never used a scope.

Thoughts? Experience?

If this thing starts breeding with the coyotes...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

First thing , it is a coyote 

we have known about coywolf for some time and others are just starting to learn of them if you did the dna testing you would find it is 1/8 1/4 or 1/2 wolf but wolves come with lots of regulations and hassle , coyotes are an unprotected species in most states.


I do not know about night vision . but traps are the route I would go , let them work while you sleep check them every day 

there is lots of info about trapping coyote available , if you think it is wolf big the only thing that would change is how far back you put the trap from the hole , and remember to sake it good


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## gimpy (Sep 18, 2007)

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/meet-the-coywolf/meet-the-coywolf/8605/

Coywolves aren't supposed to be this far south, but then maybe this one didn't get the memo. It does look like some sort of hybrid. I assumed wolf/german shepherd from the looks, but you are right. I'd need DNA to confirm. What if I found scat and froze it? how much would it cost to test it? Is there really any value in testing it?

400 pound Russian boars aren't supposed to be here either but I saw a picture of one killed a half hour away. Here any nuisance animal is always in season. It's killed my birds and stalked me. I've had several Great Pyrs over the years and this thing is bigger than any Pyr I've had. Its scat is twice as thick and about 4 times as long as the usual coyote scat that I see.

I know nothing of trapping coyotes. The rare ones that come through the fence, our Maremma can take them out quick but she outweighs them. Suggest a good site to read about it?

http://mdc.mo.gov/hunting-trapping/trapping/trapping-coyotes
found that one quick, seems knowledgeable but I might not know enough to know if it wasn't

I don't mind the little coyotes. We sort of have an understanding to leave each other alone. The cage traps available around here are too small for this thing. Although they are legal and available here I kind of don't want to use a leghold because what do I do if it catches one of the normal little ones? I'd have to shoot it and I only want to get the one that's the problem. That's why I'm thinking night scope


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

and the dnr atimatly denied that there were mountian lion in south central wisconsin till one got hit by a car then they dnr checked t and said yup Ozarks and they can walk 600 miles no problem but no breeding pairs local 

we also know coydogs exist and it is all together possible it is just a wild dog , I have a dog that looks just like a really big black coyote but she is mostly German Shepard if not all Shepard.

that your seeing it in the day there is only it's tracks and no others and it is getting close to the house with no fear , i would think more along the lines of dog 

whatever it is the thing you don't want it to be is a wolf , not because wolves are bigger or badder , but because you utter that work and it complicates things 100 fold 

when we look at a problem first we ask what is the real problem , in your case live stock damage is the real issue 
second what do we want to know and what will only complicate the issue 
I don't know about you but I am always on a budget so as much as i would like to investigate my academic questions , i leave that to others to spend my tax dollars on 
unless the answer has the ability to save me or make me a bunch of money.
not to say i will do my own low cost testing where i can.

my night gun wears a high power light and a red dot , night vision is expensive and It doesn't sound like you will be shooting all that far 

the Trapperman forum is a decent place to read , as is our state trapping education book

there are a number of large live traps available for order , in Colorado they have to use cage traps for everything even bobcat so they have big traps , the ADC guys use a lot of very big cage traps for things as big as beaver 

you can make your own big cage trap , use fencing panels or even a dog kennel with a top and replace the door with a sliding sheet of ply wood and some 2x4 guides fastened to the cage use a nail with a wire to it and wire it to the bait in the back of the trap when it comes in to get the bait the last but the nails pulls out of the door and the door drops 

where are you at that will help with what trap to use.

cable restraints are another option


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

gimpy said:


> I know nothing of trapping coyotes. The rare ones that come through the fence, our Maremma can take them out quick but she outweighs them. Suggest a good site to read about it?
> 
> http://mdc.mo.gov/hunting-trapping/trapping/trapping-coyotes
> found that one quick, seems knowledgeable but I might not know enough to know if it wasn't
> ...


you don't have to shoot them , you can let them go , but you need a way to hold them down while you take the trap off 
a catch pole or release board work 

that link explains it fairly well


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## gimpy (Sep 18, 2007)

Thanks Pete,

I've been looking at more pictures and this thing's snout and ears are definitely too long for it to be wolf. Thinking back we have had problems about every 5 years with large breed feral dogs, each time a different breed and the last one was a big gray german shepherd. Before we've always managed to scare them off. This is the first time they've taken anything. So you appear to be right. This is simply a really really big coy-dog that looks wolf like on a quick glance.

I have large kennels. This thing wouldn't have to get completely inside a large dog kennel to get to bait at the back. I could make something out of cattle panels once the ground isn't frozen. The smaller coyotes could get through the panels, but they aren't the issue anyway, so I'd just lose some bait. I'm thinking a 2 x 4 stud for the glides, a sheet of plywood for the front and sliding door and 3 panels to make a 4 x 6 x 4. I assume it needs a cage bottom so it can't tunnel out

Wouldn't a light attached to the rifle just scare away a coy-dog? That's why I was thinking night vision with a low power magnification since I'm not adept at using a scope. Meanwhile I have the camera set up to better map out its habits. My wife thinks I should get a thermal imaging binocular/monocular hand held thing for scouting and a starlight scope for a rifle if I spot it with the first thing. From what I've read though the range on the thermal imaging stuff is ridiculously short and therefore wouldn't actually work to try and find it until it's already on top of you.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I had a 95# female great Dane that could push through the holes in the bottom of a very large wire kennel she would back up against the back and push the plastic pan till it broke and slid out the front then tip the kennel over and push her way out the bottom the bottom wires were about as far apart as cattle panel , I ended up making her a kennel of hog panel and 2x4 it was about 7 feet deep and a panel high and a panel wide 

make sure your guides support the full height if the door and that the door goes down into a channel at the bottom so it can't get under it or try and push through 

I would use a tempting meat wired in to the top back of the cage let it give it a pull to trip the door 

you could start by wiring chicken legs to branches about 3 feet off the ground and get it in a little closer every night and used to yanking it free

I think if you do a nice job on the trap you can probably let it out to other people in the county with the same problem and recoup your cost 


a friend had a older starlight scope for mounting on a rifle I just couldn't see that well with it white t-shirts stood out like a soar thumb at even a hundred yards but the definition for a well camouflaged animal would have been hard to see 

I haven't really had any experience with them since , but i think there is a reason the army went to the helmet mounted no magnification binoculars and night vision compatible red dot scopes


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## palm farmer (Jan 3, 2014)

Gen 3 quality scope start at 3k and up there are some decent gen 2 scopes out there but night vision and distance don't always mix well


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## RJMAcres (Sep 9, 2009)

Gimpy, I shot you a PM a little bit ago.
I just have this funny feeling we live in the same area.


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## gimpy (Sep 18, 2007)

3K is out of my price range which explains why the one's that I've been looking at don't look adequate

Use fishing line for the chicken legs? Something weaker? Something more biodegradeable?

1/2 inch plywood ok, or 3/4?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I was thinking 17ga fencing wire or mason twine , with traps it is all about making them work it longer , but some 40 pound test would probably work , tie it to smaller green branches that hang down and let them fight the branch for a while 

like on a dirt hole if you just drop in a bit of meat in a hole they can stick their head in they are in and out in seconds , if you use a lure and a deep narrow hole they have to dig a bit to find out there is no food there , all that dancing around is how you catch them , if we were so good that we knew exactly where they would step we wouldn't need bait or lure. you need to change the narrative.

think about this for a second lets say i wanted to catch you , I know you go home every day lets say i had a spot i wanted you to step on under your entry mat to trigger a trap , i could take an educated guess where you would step , but if i wanted you to dance around on your door mat i could squirt a little super glue in your door lock and you would fight with the key and move all over your door mat till you were caught or or jammed the key in past the small blockage , that's what we mean my make them work for it 

if you took a small drill bit and drilled through the bone and ran the heavy fishing line through and around the leg several times and tied it then tied it to the tree branch it would break the line but it would fight it first 

you could use light fishing line for the first chicken leg and watch till it takes that , then heavier on a second , but ultimately your just looking to get it to go into a trap for a meal and get caught so probably no need to over think it. you would want to have the trap ready and baited before putting out the other bait you might just get lucky and get him the first night or it may take time 

as for biodegradable , you need to check on it any way so cutting the line off the branch is no big deal later , are you really worried if it eats the fishing line after all you want it dead

one of the sets I have been reading about and plan to try for coyote next season is the pipe dream set if you look it up you will find some reading on it , it is a 1 inch pvc conduit 10-12 inches long driven about 1/2 into the ground at a bit of an angle with lure or bait pushed down the pipe , the trap placed so that the loaded jaw is about an inch forward of the forward edge of the pipe so that when it tries to look down the pipe or put it's nose to the pipe it steps on the trap pan , the trap is then covered with chopped hay or grass clippings the grey pipe makes a visual attractant in a field of grass and the bait can't be gotten to 

think about those dog toys where the treat is in the middle an how long a dog plays with that , same idea but they can't get the pull to get the pipe out so they step on the trap is the hope


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## gimpy (Sep 18, 2007)

As to biodegradability, it is just that I don't want trash laying around in case it takes off with it and leaves it somewhere.

So with wire (I actually have a spool of that) I get how the coy-canid would simply pull the bone out or whatever with the initial lures, but when it comes to the trap itself, I can just loop it over most of the panel until it drops into the cage? I don't imagine that I would need a pulley.

Although I've only seen the one, the tracks suggest it's with 1-2 normal sized coyotes as well (here, those are maybe 40 pounds, and they may have been with the big one when he faced me and I only noticed him). The pasture fences surround the house and line the driveway so that the UPS truck can get to us without opening fences, and then we have over a hundred acres around that which is scrub and woods. That's where I get the cedar trees in the winter to feed the sheep. So the driveway to the porch is usually unfenced. In the past the regular coyotes wouldn't come down the driveway because it's too close to the fences with dogs on either side. This big one came down the corridor to get the chickens and goose. From the tracks the little ones stayed out, but do run with it when it's outside the fenced area. So my guess is it is breeding.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

you will have to test and figure out your trigger and how much pull it will take , you may not need a pully or you may need a guide to keep the wire from kinking over the fence panel wire just somthing to give it a bigger radius , but try it , when hanging a weight of say 2-3 pounds trips it I think you will have it 

if the big live trap does not work you may want to look for a local trapper to do some regular annual trapping of coyote in your many acre of brush land they won't take them all but will thin them out each year it works out well for land owner and trapper.


as for foot hold traps they are not what Hollywood makes them out to be , I caught a cat in one at one of the farms I trap this year, the owners could tell the cats foot was sore but in 3 days it was fine again unfortunate but I was trying to get the raccoon out of the hay loft , I catch myself in them every once in a while while setting one i bump the pan , I have all my fingers and the worst i have gotten was a bruise most of the time i am wearing gloves and it doesn't even bruise


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## gimpy (Sep 18, 2007)

As my name implies, I don't have the best of health and just carrying a rifle when I go to the mailbox (about a ten minute walk one way) is wearing me out. I think I'll ask around at the mill. There's probably someone who would love to get that thing to stuff it.

That will be sure cheaper than a night scope


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## palm farmer (Jan 3, 2014)

Ask your local gun smith if any yore callers want to try their hand at your place, that way you aren't out a penny, who knows they might drop off a case of beer as a thank you


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> as for foot hold traps they are not what Hollywood makes them out to be , I caught a cat in one at one of the farms I trap this year, the owners could tell the cats foot was sore but in 3 days it was fine again unfortunate but I was trying to get the raccoon out of the hay loft , I catch myself in them every once in a while while setting one i bump the pan , I have all my fingers and the worst i have gotten was a bruise most of the time i am wearing gloves and it doesn't even bruise


My Great Pyrenees was caught in one set illegally on my land and he had to have part of his foot amputated.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

A cougar that got caught in a trap and was able to pull that trap lose from its mooring attacked our dog and my husband last year because it could not get any food.

It was pretty brutal. This was not Hollywood but real life. Also had two trappers convicted a couple of weeks ago here that had their traps catch and injure a dog pretty badly.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> My Great Pyrenees was caught in one set illegally on my land and he had to have part of his foot amputated.


May I ask how long your dog was in the trap.

there is no excuse for Illegal trapping or trespassing , but my experience is that when things are done correctly and traps checked every morning it can be very safe.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

painterswife said:


> A cougar that got caught in a trap and was able to pull that trap lose from its mooring attacked our dog and my husband last year because it could not get any food.
> 
> It was pretty brutal. This was not Hollywood but real life. Also had two trappers convicted a couple of weeks ago here that had their traps catch and injure a dog pretty badly.


again there is no excuse for illegal trapping and use of traps illegally obviously they were breaking laws to get convicted. It is very sad that a few hurt the image of trapping so much.

what you can't see is the tens of thousands of good trappers who check everyday and responsibly set appropriate traps with permission of the land owner. often the land oners barley see us we are in and out often before it is even light we make little noise and leave little sign we were there but can be an excellent managment tool for fur bearer and predator damage to livestock, crops , land and improvements. 

traps used properly can be a good tool and are what many wild life researchers use to humanly trap wolves, bobcat and mountain lion for research and then release them unharmed


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## K-9 (Jul 27, 2007)

Gimpy, do not waste your money on cheap night vision, it will not do what you want it to do unless you have a good IR illuminator, not the junk ones that are attached to some of the scopes. There are some decent "digital" night vision sights that start at around 1500 dollars but they are not true night vision, they use software to take what they detect and fill in what the software says should be there. For a true weapons grade night vision sight you are going to pay at least 2500 dollars and that is for a Gen 3 commercial sight and the price goes up from there. Since this is a one time use type thing the best option for you would probably be to just purchase one of the firearm mounted lights that are meant for night time varmint hunting, they come with a red or green filter to reduce spooking the animal and then when the animal is in range you can either shoot with the red/green light or flip up the filter and have white light, these set ups run between 50 and 100 dollars and mount on your existing rifle scope. The main draw back to them is they are bulky but for your intended use this is not much of an issue. I have a Surefire 6P with a high output lamp mounted on my rifle using a front sight mount (AR15), I really like this set up it is bright enough to do what I need it to do and small enough not to be cumbersome to use and is quickly detached, when I get around to it though, I am going to upgrade it to a Surefire TLR1 HL as it is brighter, and more compact. You can get this set up for less than 150 dollars and avoid the cumbersome "varmint light" on your rifle depending on what type of rifle you use.


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## Rollochrome (Apr 9, 2012)

Ive got night vision and Ive got weapons mounted flashlights..

Killed lots with both.

If you want night vision, buy a PVS-14 and illuminator from Tactical Night Vision Company. Google them. They rule the roost.. Prepare to spend thousands.

If you want weapons mounted flash lights buy a Surefire TLR 1 at Academy or Amazon. Less than $200.


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## gimpy (Sep 18, 2007)

Ok, talked to a guy a week or more ago. He set up some cameras. The culprit does not seem to be this wolf thing, but rather some coy dogs. Coy wolf in Canada. Coy Dogs in the US South. They seem to have by conformation and coloring quite a bit of German Shepherd. I don't want to use leg holds. He didn't like that but brought this bigassed thing made of cattle panels. I could sit inside that thing. He lives far enough away that I need to check it twice a day.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

let us know how it goes , pictures would be great when you get it . or even just of the trap


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

Yeah I was going to say. According to the description you are dealing with a adult coyote. Small tracks you have seen are likely fox. You got z roamer moving into your area. Its been around dogs before that's the reason it walked right down your drive. Its a domistified yote. Give some time your fox tracks will dusdisapear. Get someone in with s caller and rifle.
Bob


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

I've shot and trapped 1000's of coyotes in a range of areas from settled to scarcely populated, and never have seen a sign of domestic dogs crossing over. I have seen reddish coyotes I suspected could possibly be results of the southern red wolves? 

My thoughts were, the coydog thing is more myth than fact. But I'm not in your locale... Still...my bro recently told me a story of his blue heeler ***** chasing a yote off, when another appeared from over the ridge. He thought they would sure 'nuff hurt his *****, but they all had a butt sniffin' tail waggin' good time.

For the most part they seem to be natural enemies, but man can (unknowingly or knowingly) induce tactics to make them cross.

Wild raised canids are tough to lure into a enclosed area such as a live trap, but hungry or curious animals are what you strive to find or make. Footholds and snares have a much better chance of catching them.

Sounds like a good possibility you are dealing with a neighbors ill raised dog who they don't keep home? Ill raised or not, I've caught/disposed of, several (6) livestock guardian type 5-10 miles away from where they belonged. They're big and have no fear of natural predators, so they travel. Much the same as the canid you describe.

Trapping/snaring is a great resource to use in wildlife control/depradation regardless of bleeding hearts who don't keep their dog at home. Like anything else their are extremely few occasions when it is misused.


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

You must have some pictures, as readily available as a camera is now?

They were convicted? What were they guilty of?



painterswife said:


> A cougar that got caught in a trap and was able to pull that trap lose from its mooring attacked our dog and my husband last year because it could not get any food.
> 
> It was pretty brutal. This was not Hollywood but real life. Also had two trappers convicted a couple of weeks ago here that had their traps catch and injure a dog pretty badly.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

In MN trappers kill other peoples dogs every year and the state does nothing. In 2012 at least 20 dogs were killed. I think some trappers have been sued in civil court but it's more symbolic than anything.

I spoke with a dog owner who's dog was killed in a body grip trap set by a slob who trespassed on his property. The state did nothing and it isn't even reported in the dog killed statistics they are supposed to be keeping.

His neighbors dog was killed on their land the year before and after finding it dead in the trap they went to get transportation to carry it home. Before they returned the trapper came back, grabbed his traps AND their dead dog and left.

These last two instances were illegal but in MN most of the dogs are killed in legally set body grip traps. Some hunting dogs have been killed right next to designated hunting trails.

It's as if the DNR asked the biggest slob trapper they could find to write the regulations.

Trapping can be done ethically but unless the laws change the slobs will keep killing our dogs.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I would think about staking down a road killed deer where it's safe to shoot and waiting with a good rifle in the morning and at dusk.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Wisconsin did away with 220 body grips on land , if you spend any time at all on the trapping forum they warn and warn people not to use them where dogs will be 

there are slobs , lawbreakers , and trespassers that do things all wrong , and cause all of use problems 

just like there are sick people who , shoot up little kids in schools it doesn't make all gun owners or guns bad. 

but it sure messes things up for the rest of us doesn't it 

I would be comfortable using a 1.5 or 1.75 foot hold for a yote even aroudn my own dog , I will notice if the dog is gone from the house more than a few hours , an woul dhave to go looking for her anyway , in that time the 1.5 or 1.75 offset or laminated jaw or even a #3 rubber jaw will not hurt her more than an ice pack and a day of laying in the house will fix.

the right trap for the right job

there are a lot fo slob dog owners also , not saying they directly relate to traps or the dogs caught in traps , but I see it almost every day especially in the spring people taking their dogs to public hunting grounds , public hunting grounds are not dog parks and are closed all spring to dogs , these are not hunters training dogs in designated training areas on 25 foot training tethers these are people how daily use public hunting grounds as dog parks letting the dogs run at large. there just seems to be a lot of people in all groups that don't seem to think the laws apply to them.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Any nightvision under gen 4 is nearly worthless...and although gen 4 stuff prices have came down, they are still expensive.

Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk


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## collieradomtman (Nov 10, 2013)

I picked one of these up for the night critters. http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shoo...792580;cat104752080;cat104466780;cat104014080 it hasn't come in yet should be here tomorrow but im confident it will help out


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