# Simple systems ?



## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Any Ideas on the simplest upgrades? Or improvements? 
Im thinking about adding some solar panels.
My current system is pretty basic.
I just start up the generator and charge whatever batteries I really need.
Sometimes if I'm going to be gone I just hook them all up and let them run till either I get back or the generator runs out of gas.
Some lights run off 12volt directly Some compact fluorescents require a converter , the fridge is 12 volt but Id like to go with a bit bigger one that will likely be 110 ac ,the Tv-dvr is 110 run from a converter.
Id like to do something as simple with solar.
Any Ideas?



My current system? 4 old car batteries one 1200 watt gen , one 110 to 12v battery charger, 1 extention cord , two power converters


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

fantasymaker said:


> Sometimes if I'm going to be gone I just hook them all up and let them run till either I get back or the generator runs out of gas.
> 
> My current system? 4 old car batteries one 1200 watt gen , one 110 to 12v battery charger, 1 extention cord , two power converters


And how long have you been abusing these batteries that really aren't meant to do what you doing ?


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

First thing.. Upgrade your battery. Car batteries won't take the abuse that a deep cycle battery will. Draining a car battery dead isn't a good thing..

You might consider a propane fridge to keep the costs of solar down. It'll take a lot of panel to run a standard fridge. I run my whole house on 512 watts of panel but I couldn't support a standard fridge for one day.

Any ideas that you need for lights, pumps, tv, cd, dvd, ect. to run from a 12 volt source, just let me know. I rarely use an inverter.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Your also abusing your generator and bat charger by letting the gen run out of gas.

It is really stretching things a bit calling what you have a "system"...........

"Car" batterys do not count.............

Suggest a lot of learning before adding PV panels and controller.............


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Car batteries are to cheep to upgrade.
The point is that what Im doing is cheep and easy.
Id like to add more items while keeping the cheep and easy part.presently I have $32 in batteries $77 in the gen (it was a upgrade from using the pickup to charge) $64 in the battery charger and $19 in my inverters.
So Im thinking aboutsolar panels . A 140 watt panel would about double my current investment but might help lower operating costs.
BUT I figger if there is anybody around that would have some cheep upgrade ideas its bound to be homesteaders.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

If you don't have a good tank to store the power in, the panels will be a waste, IMO..


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Thats a good way to put it 12vman..................


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## Tyler520 (Aug 12, 2011)

For the average American household, you'll never be able to make solar power worthwhile. My neighbor spent $35K on solar panels, but only subsidizes 15% of his energy usage. 

a subdivision near Phoenix, AZ just installed a solar PV farm - the PV surface area required to provide power for each home in the subdivision is about 35% bigger than the footprint of the home itself! I consider that to be pretty absurd...and Phoenix is the most efficient location in the US for solar power usage.

Furthermore, the lifespan of the PVs will most likely expire lomgbefore they have paid themselves off, so you'll be buying new ones while still paying for the old ones.

The average person would need to make pretty big sacrifices in their lifestyle to make PVs economically or ecologically sustainable. Some can and will, but most will not.

Unless you comfortably know your power usage, it is difficult to advance the conversation. The average US household uses 958 kilowatthours per month - how do you compare? What is your peak usage?


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

There is many bent truths in the previous post.

Most PV panels of today have a 20 to 25 year warrenty. 
Properly used they will have paid for them selves long before that . . . . .

I have some 25 year old PV panels that are still going strong . . . . . .

If a person spends $35K on a system and it only offsets 15% of his electric, then that person has no concept of conserving . .and obviously has an ALL electric home . ie; electric stove, hot water,etc. etc.

And many many many of us are living quite comfortable using PV with out your "pretty big sacrifices in their life styles"...........

It is also obvious that the *average* US household is horribly wastefull of electrical usage.........

The conversation should continue and personal conservation should be high in that talk......

Despite your bias against PV it really does work very well............


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## bbbuddy (Jul 29, 2002)

*<My neighbor spent $35K on solar panels, but only subsidizes 15% of his energy usage.>*


We live entirely off of solar except for once a week well pumping from a generator.

We have both a 120v refrigerator and chest freezer. We have tv, microwave, satellite internet, etc...

Our entire system cost about $4,500, but we installed it all ourselves.

We have 800 watts of solar, and a battery bank of 790 amps.


$35,000? Doesn't HAVE to be so expensive, unless you aren't willing to do the learning and work yourself...to have spent that much $ and have so little to show for it...well "a fool and his money are soon parted"


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

My 6kw PV system provides about 3/4 of our power needs. We're right in around that national average ( but have 3 freezers and a wood shop on the same meter ). This month, for example, we'll do something like 650kw/hrs from the solar, and buy another 200-250.

I tested some Arco panels from the mid 80's....they were still within a fraction of their rated output when new....those are 30 year old panels. Personally, I think the life of panels is more a "we gotta set SOME limit because our lawyers said so" rather than the REAL life span of them. My guess is inverters are way more likely to need replacing at about 10-15 years than panels in 20-25.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Tyler520 said:


> a subdivision near Phoenix, AZ just installed a solar PV farm - the PV surface area required to provide power for each home in the subdivision is about 35% bigger than the footprint of the home itself! I consider that to be pretty absurd..


You want to know what's REALLY absurd ? The amount of land moved to strip mine coal to run coal fired electric plants.


I can GUARANTEE ya it's way more than the footprint of a single house.


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## Tyler520 (Aug 12, 2011)

What works well for the individual does not apply to the collective. The statements are based on average American energy usage - to assume that these systems can be applied to the general public in mass is silly...in a generalized conversation, you have to apply generalized statistics. Obviously, the average American wastes energy, mostly through vampire energy, but obviously any notion of a "comfortable lifestyle" is relative. Most people are wired into a city's grid, and are coerced to rely almost exclusively on electric power. 

But keep in mind, it isn't as if solar panels grow on trees; the embodied energy is quite intense. They have to be manufactured. Similar to computer chips, this is a dirty and energy-intensive process. First, raw materials have to be mined: quartz sand for silicon cells, metal ore for thin film cells. Next, these materials have to be treated, following different steps (in the case of silicon cells these are purification, crystallization and wafering). Finally, these upgraded materials have to be manufactured into solar cells, and assembled into modules. All these processes produce air pollution and heavy metal emissions, and they consume huge amounts of energy - which brings about more air pollution and heavy metal emissions. Apples-to-apples, the initial production of a solar panel system is more energy-intensive and polluting than a coal-fired electric plant.

Densely populated cities simply cannot make efficient use of solar energy production, hence the reason I - as well as everyone here, for that matter - are advocates of decentralization...AKA homesteading. It works best for the individual, but the problems of the city will simply never go away...in fact, they'll just keep growing, unfortunately.

...But what would I know - I'm only a stupid architect and urban ecologist


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## nadja (May 22, 2011)

So what does all of this have to do with the op's original question of cheap system ?


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I don't have any links but that old "dirty" argument has been disproved years ago.
A good PV panel will produce way more energy over its life time than what it takes to produce it.

Ever stopped to consider how dirty it is to produce that car you drive is . . . . .???

And the life of a 'car' isn't any where near what the life of a good PV panel is....


Yes this has nothing to do with the OP.

But I hate it when somebody jumps in with distortions and PV doesn't work.


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