# Purple Martins and Honeybees



## PurpleMartineer

Hi there 
Wondering if there are any other purple martin landlords on this forum who have direct experience with having a martin colony and bees on the same property? Anyone else with experience on this issue?

We have a rather large "supercolony" of martins, we offer 106 compartments with 100% occupancy and fledge about 400 birds a year, so from April to July we have anywhere from 100-600 martins on our property and flying the skies in our area.

I want bees. I want martins. Dilemma? 

What do you all think of this article from the Purple Martin Society? They say that the martin has been misidentified as the "bee martin" when in fact the bird identified as eating so many honeybees is actually the Eastern Kingbird, a bird frequently misidentified as a martin. 

BEGIN

PURPLE MARTINS AND HONEYBEES

(From the PMSNA RTC Archives)

Recently I have been asked whether or not the Purple Martin is an enemy of the common honeybee (Apis mellifera). I have done some research on this subject. I found some information in a book authored by J.L. Wade and published by Nature House on this old wives' tale/myth.

*The myth began as a misunderstanding of what the PMs eat and a mistake in bird identification. The bird misidentified as a PM in this situation was, in fact, a eastern kingbird, also incorrectly nicknamed the "bee martin." Therein lies the problem---Purple Martin and Bee Martin. Two entirely different birds! And the PM mistakenly maligned for the behavior of another bird. And like a bit of bad gossip, word travels and spreads until many, many people pass these thoughts while believing it as truth.*

The following is an excerpt that explains how this story started. It is from the book, WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW ABOUT THE PURPLE MARTIN and printed here with permission by Mr. J. L. Wade.

"The martin did not become America's most wanted bird without overcoming some obstacles. Skeptics occasionally questioned the bird's effectiveness, but none could mount a serious challenge in view of the overwhelming evidence being accumulated that the bird does do a good job of controlling insects as well as being a favorite bird in other respects.

The first serious challenge came from the Houston area in the spring of 1966 when the martin was accused of eating honey bees in great quantities. Joe C. Pouncey, treasurer of the Harris County Beekeepers Association claimed that the martin was a menace to the bees and that all martin houses should be torn down to protect the bee population.

Allison Sanders of the Houston Chronicle relayed Mr. Pouncey's sentiments to the public in the April 29,1966 issue in an editorial entitled "Bee-Ware the Martin."

Sanders wrote:

"There are at least two sides to every question and the truth in this cliche' is proved in a letter from Joe C. Pouncey, security officer at the San Jacito Bank of Pasadena and treasurer of the Harris County Beekeepers Association.

"Until Pouncey's letter arrived I had felt, as most people probably do, that purple martins are as sacrosanct as motherhood and the flag--they eat mosquitoes, so who could be against them?

"Pouncey's and the other beekeepers are, to name several.

"'Who in the world sponsored this hoax of purple martins eating mosquitoes?' Pouncey demands. 'They really are the most predaceous enemy the honey bee has. Why would a martin go to the trouble of hunting mosquitoes when, with no effort at all, he can soar above the approach to a colony of honey bees and pick off the workers coming in so loaded with honey that they can't even take evasive action?

"'Martins feed during the day, while the mosquitoes are safely hidden in the grass and weeds. About the time the mosquitoes come out in the late evening the martins are full of honey and heading to their nice apartment complexes, built by unthinking humans who don't realize the importance of honey bees.'

"If martins and mosquitoes and honey bees wore hats," concluded Sanders, "like in TV westerns, it wouldn't be so hard to tell the bad guys from the good guys."

The Houston Post also published Pouncey's comments, and several other newspapers and radio commentators also noticed the comments and relayed them to the public, sometimes accompanied by an unspoken "Aha!"

Not everyone agreed with Mr. Pouncey's assessment of the martin and its alleged appetite for bees.

John James Audubon wouldn't have agreed, He flatly declared, "These birds seldom seize the honey bee."

William J. Mellor of Eureka Springs, Arkansas wouldn't have agreed either. His extensive colonies of both Purple Martins and honey bees co-exist quite agreeably.

The Chronicle and the Post were deluged with letters in the martin's defense.

George Mobus of the Giggsville, Illinois Wild Bird Society identified the real culprit as the bee martin, or eastern kingbird, which does have an appetite for honey bees. It is a member of the flycatcher family, not a swallow.

Mobus wrote:

"There is a wild bird species noted for its appetite for honey bees. This bird is unfortunately known by many people as a 'bee martin.' This bird is neither a martin nor any member of the swallow family. It is actually the eastern kingbird, member of the so-called tyrant flycatcher family of birds. The kingbird in color and general configuration (having almost black wings, tail, and upper part, and with a fan-shaped tail) can, by the unacquainted, be easily mistake for the purple martin, particularly the female of the species. This bird may well be the enemy of beekeepers, but you can be sure it is the friend of every farmer, for it is the undaunted foe of crows, hawks, and many other large predatory birds.

"If the Pasadena bee man quoted in your news story is, indeed correct in that the birds seen above the bee colonies were purple martins, we can tell him exactly what these martins were doing, and that they were not eating honey bees! There are a number of species of dragonflies. The smaller and lower-flying dragonflies are frequently called 'mosquito hawks,' The larger dragonflies will fly high in the air and the principal food of this type of dragonflies is honeybees! One of the favorite food of the purple martins is these larger dragonflies, and when the martins see these dragonflies concentrated, they will attack and destroy great numbers of them.

"Thus, they are actually saving the lives of the honeybees, which would, otherwise, be prey to the dragonflies."

Pete Jury of Houston, who has a beehive in his yard wrote that he resented the articles condemning the martins.

"Other people with bees and purple martin houses have never seen the purple martin catch a bee, but instead they go high in the air, dodging here and there, feeding on mosquitoes,"** says Mr. Jury.


(**Mosquitoes only compose 0-3% of martins' diets. This is a myth perpetuated by leading martin housing manufacturers to sell their products with the claim that "Purple Martins can eat 2,000 mosquitoes a day!" While PMs do eat large amounts of flying insects, the fact is that PMs are not ecological mosquito control -Bats are!)

Jim Tom House of Houston referred to Bulletin Number 179 of the U.S. National Museum, prepared by Arthur Cleveland Bent, and pointed out that the study made by Professor F.E.L. Beal and detailed in that bulletin, said, "To accusations that martin destroy honeybees, he had a definite answer that in only five out of 200 stomachs did honey bees appear, and every one of them was a drone." (TERRY here: it is the worker bees, not drones, who carry the honey into the hives.)

*Joe F. Combs reported in his column, "Farm Corner," in the Beaumont, Texas Enterprise, the experience of B.B. Horn of Vidor, Texas, who had a swarm of bees actually occupying one of the gourds used by martins on his place. Mr. Horn's observations are about the most interesting to be related in the honey bee-PM controversy.

"'There is a male purple that belongs in a 25-compartment house about 50 feet away (from the bees) that has the habit of crawling into and resting or sleeping in the gourd next to the one the bees have taken over. I have been watching him now for five days. When he goes into the gourd several bees go over to where he sits with his head out the hole.

"'When he bees come near he just shakes his head. The bees don't bother him, and he doesn't bother the bees. So, if anyone believes PMs eat honeybees, they are wrong, and I have the proof right here at my place...'"

Mr. Combs concludes, "Maybe the PM is being accused of something he is innocent of. If bees remain where he is supposed to have eaten them, that doesn't deem to add up, does it? If the bees stay, they certainly have not been eaten."*

Honey bees do have numerous natural enemies, including skunks, bears, kingbirds, dragonflies, robberflies, praying mantises, spiders, and toads, to name a few, but the martin is not among them.

From: WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW ABOUT THE PURPLE MARTIN by Mr. J. L. Wade.

Mr. Wade is the owner and manufacturer of Trio/DuraCraft Housing. He is also the Founder of The Nature Society, The Nature Society News and The Nature House co. Please check out the Nature Society webpage at: www.naturesociety.org
__________________


END

Comments? Can someone tell me when the drones/queen fly? If there is the timeperiod when they would be vulnerable to martins, perhaps since I know the behavioral rhythms of the birds and thier migration timetable, I could assess or rule out risk. 


Thanks!
Alisa~


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## alleyyooper

You don't seem to want to read what IDEE wrote about them so I say buy the bees. If they don't work out so be it. What is 3 to 5 hundred dollars in equipment and 55 to 90 dollars for bees.

You propably want bees to pollinate your garden. Wonder why there are no bees around there to begin with.

 Al


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## PurpleMartineer

Sheesh no need to be all grumpy. I am not trying to usurp anybody's authority or anything. I dont think my post and request for further information was disrespectful? I guess it was a mistake coming to this forum. I was just asking if there was anybody on this forum who actually had bees and martins in the same yard, maybe someone with direct observation. I did find some information such as this at the purple martin conservation associations website forum. There are actually old timers on there who do have bees AND martins.

As a martin landlord, I do know that martins are often mistaken for other birds. I dont want to take any huge risks, so I am just asking around to see if there are people who call themselves both martin colony keepers and beekeepers. So shoot me.

And I do have a major amount of feral bees on my property as it is. They are around all spring/summer as are my martins. I just dont know where thier hive is, or when the drones/queen fly. And for the record I dont even have a garden, but if I did there would be no problem having it pollinated with the already existing feral bees which buzz all over this place, which I mentioned in my previous newbie-with-questions post. 

As this is all about biology and behavior of wildlife, I was just trying to assess risk to the queen based on timing of the bee/bird behavior and life cycles. I will call on my local friends and attend area classes of course.

You can put all the smilies you want in a post but doesnt change that your answer is basically telling me to shut the bleep up. Thanks a lot Alleyooper. Way to help out.


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## Durandal

PurpleMartineer said:


> Comments? Can someone tell me when the drones/queen fly? If there is the timeperiod when they would be vulnerable to martins, perhaps since I know the behavioral rhythms of the birds and thier migration timetable, I could assess or rule out risk.
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> Alisa~


I have lots of barn swallows...in my barns...and they seem to be happy hanging out around the horse barn to deal with the fly population there.

I have not yet seen a negative impact on queen mating and returns.

That said I keep my hives approximately 600 yards at least from my barns.

Purple Martins are a much different beast though and from I have heard consume far more than the swallows.

I also have 300 acres and 8 locations lined up for out yards, so even if I had Purple Martins I think I could manage.

Maybe some hobbies are not meant to share the same space and time.

Maybe building a bat sanctuary would be better since their schedules do not overlap. 

Purple Martins are the scourge of beekeepers though. Not that I hold any ill will towards the creatures. I might keep some at my home since I do not live on the farm and the wife loathes bats.


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## no1cowboy




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## Judy in IN

I had about 20 pairs of Purple Martins at the old farm, and a few bee hives in the poultry yard, as protection from skunks. 

I didn't have a problem with the Martins. They loved horseflies and dragonflies. The barn swallows did eventually move out, though. Too much competition from the Purple Martins.

The Eastern Kingbirds would sit on the fence around the poultry yard and occasionally swoop out to catch a bee. I was pretty irritated until I found out they eat drones. 

Get your bees. 

I'll be putting gourds at the new farm next month, and will be moving my hives there too.


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## Me Beekeeper

:clap: My experience has been with Barn Swallows. My bees have been quite productive with the barn across the road full of swallows. I have tried raising queens and have had times when I have blamed the swallows for the virgins getting lost on their mating trips. Anything is possible. :goodjob:


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## EvansNC

*Good readin'. I had a martin house at my last place and have not got one up yet here and my bees are coming in april. They come with a mated Queen so she has no need to fly out with any drones. If you have had ferel bees and they haven't disappeared I would suspect the same will be true of your tame bees.

Don't let anyone upset you here. We all have a bad day now and then and these are topics we need to talk about.* Thanks for asking.


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