# How long does it take to burst?



## LizinNH (Feb 2, 2003)

How long does it take for a CL absess to burst on average? Days,weeks or months?

Liz in NH


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## Ken in Maine (May 10, 2002)

Days.


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## gracegarden (Mar 30, 2007)

Our experience was "months."
You don't want it to just "burst." Be proactive. It isn't difficult, but it is a nasty, dirty job -- but well worth the effort.
(I wore old jeans and t-shirt, them threw them away afterwards.)

Good luck.

If you need some moral support, please pm me, I do have experience. 

Here's a great link. Clear, straight-forward information. http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/U/UNP-0085/


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## Feral Nature (Feb 21, 2007)

When it burst, the goat should be deep underground, far far away. Sorry, that's my solution.


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## rranch (May 19, 2006)

Please be careful, it is contagious to ALL mammals including humans.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

Feral Nature said:


> When it burst, the goat should be deep underground, far far away. Sorry, that's my solution.


mine too

unfortunately there are a lot of breeder that believe they can deal with it. 
worth the effort? i don't think so. this is one reason that keeps me from showing my does.


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## tiergarten-CO (Dec 24, 2004)

We just bought a show goat for my daughter and not a week later he got CL. Well we are 99.99% sure that is what he has. We got himtested today so it will be two days before we have the official results. 
But Keeping him away from everyone and the hassle not to mention the fact your other goats can catch it as well..We have to keep him for now because my daughter wants her money back. So we have to wait for the results or he would have been underground already. I agree with the other posters. Far under ground.


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## LizinNH (Feb 2, 2003)

Ok, over two months ago I discovered an abcess on my does udder. I did contact the vet, he was not concerned about it, said CL was highly unlikely. He told me to encourage it to burst or lance it. He gave me no other good usable info. I asked about testing for CL and got the run around and reassurances that CL was unlikely. No real help there. So I watched and waited..... absolutely no changes in it. It looked and felt like a walnut under the skin. No discoloration, hair loss, heat, or squishiness.

Yesterday it burst or was torn open. (she tried to get through the electric fence and got tangled. She has cuts and burns from the wire along her side and rear leg right in line with the absess. I was at work when it happened.) 

So, i cleaned and dressed the leg and side then cleaned the absess out. Removed pus, flushed with iodine, then applied blu kote.
The pus was smooth, green and tainted with blood. The skin that came off the top of it still had hair on it but looked dried out and scabbed. 

I have just the two goats , they have been together over two years and they are very bonded. If it is CL chances are good the buck has been exposed. So it looks like they will live here for the rest of their days and be the last goats that ever step foot on this property.


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## Ken in Maine (May 10, 2002)

Let me put your mind at ease. That abscess was NOT CL.

Goats get abscesses all the time just like people get slivers in their fingers etc.

I don't care what anyone on this thread has said about CL and the months it takes or the test to determine. First most all goats will test positive for the antibody for CL. That doesn't mean they will have an active case. With a blood test it simply indicates what antibodies are present at what testing dilution.

The only true way to determine if an abscess is really CL is to take the exuent (pus) and have it tested. The exuent will be very much like cottage cheese... it will be white ( no other color) it will have no odor. If there is color or odor it is not CL.

There seems to be an almost panic about any abscess that a goat gets and it is automatically diagnosed by the crowd as CL.

Please do not get me wrong.. CL is a problem and I believe that any goat diagnosed with it needs to be put down but many people are killing their goats simply because they are paranoid and listen to nonsense before the proper tests are done.

Please do your homework and learn all about your goats from reputable resources not from a reactionary bunch of people with a handfull of animals that don't live in the real world.

We've raised goats for almost 20 years here in Maine and have kidded... bought and sold hundreds if not over a thousand goats for those years and have NEVER had a case of CL. Lots of abscesses but they never turned out to be a true case of CL.


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

So.........Ken.....can I chime in here, too? Tell me about the "other" abscesses goats get--PLEASE! My doe has a swelling on her neck and I am going crazy here.

What does a CL abscess look like? How long does it last? Etc., etc., etc......

I have read and read and have managed to read myself silly. The only thing that I know for sure is my goat's swelling is in the area of the thyroid or thalmus. Just below her chin slightly off to one side. It's been there for three days. No hair loss, no punctures, no heat, no hardness, no changes. If you put your hand under her chin and feel there is just an area that is jiggly. If you look at her you can see a slightly raised area (bigger than golf ball size). She seems otherwise fine.

I've read all sorts of scary stuff about lancing, etc. Give me some hope here.

Dee


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

Ken in Maine said:


> First most all goats will test positive for the antibody for CL.



ken that statement is wrong. where did you get that info?


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## Ken in Maine (May 10, 2002)

Susanne;

First my statement was "most" all goats will test positive for the antibody. I didn't make a blanket statement. If you had any knowledge of the blood test you would understand that it simply is a test for "at risk" factors. The test is diluted to many degrees to determine at exactly what rate the antibodies will produce a reaction.

Now on to MamaDee;

The hope is that there are only a few million goats in the United States. If CL was a rampant as some here would like you to believe the government would step in because it would be epidemic proportions. 

All you have to do is watch your goats and notice that they like to scratch and rub.. it's usually their rump, under their neck, their ears... same places as lymph glands are located.

Goats get abscess for different reasons. Some are simply from scratching... they get a small sliver of wood or metal and their immune system takes over and fills the area with pus to try to dissolve and fight off the invader.... that is why when you have these abscesses lanced or needle biopsied they show blood and either green or clear pus. Goats can get a jaw abscess from a decaying tooth ( that's really nasty and stinky).

A CL abscess comes on very quickly, and grows dramatically in just a few days. It is always wise to isolate your suspect animal for a few days to see where the abscess goes. If after several days there is no change it is likely not CL. You will go "nuts" fretting over this for the several months it will take for the abscess to burst.

As to where I get my information it comes from, as I said, raising hundreds and hundreds of goats... talking to breeders all over the country, and labs that deal with this stuff.

There are way too many folks here who just want to "bad mouth" that my resources remain confidential to this group. If you would like them contact me privately at [email protected].


At this point I think I've said all I'm going to say. If people want to make a big deal over this then they will and nothing more that I would say will make a difference.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Ken in Maine said:


> A CL abscess comes on very quickly, and grows dramatically in just a few days. It is always wise to isolate your suspect animal for a few days to see where the abscess goes. If after several days there is no change it is likely not CL. You will go "nuts" fretting over this for the several months it will take for the abscess to burst.


Ken, I agree that goats get abcesses for other reasons than CL. But I do not agree that CL abcesses all act like you say they do in the above quote. I think you may give people false security by saying so.
When I first got into goats years ago, I had CL in my herd, introduced by my ignorance in buying from a man with no scruples. I knew nothing about it, had never heard of it. I learned fast.
The abcesses came in all different sizes, some grew very slowly(literally months from detection to ripening), and some grew fast. Some would stay the same size for a month or more and then suddenly start growing. They were all different.
I have this information first-hand, regrettably, and I do know what I'm talking about. And yes, the pus was tested positive for CL, not the blood.
The udder is certainly an area that gets CL abcesses. And some CL abcesses(tested positive), do have a greenish pus(no odour), blood in the pus from the cut is common when lancing an abcess. If it has an odour, it shouldn't be CL, but I would have it tested just to be sure.
The udder is also an area that can get staph abcesses.....they do have an odour though.
Yes, goats get abcesses for other reasons than CL, but in my experience and other breeders I have talked to, the most common reason is CL and all abcesses should be tested for peace of mind at least!
Now that I have said I had CL in my herd in the past, please let me stress that it was heartbreaking, but I put down most of them and sold a few cheaply to a local guy who already had CL and was aware of it. That was years ago, hundreds of miles away, and a completely different herd. It was an experience I never want to experience again and that is why I am fanatical about who I buy from and *never* buy without seeing the whole herd. I have a CL clean herd and want it to stay that way.
CL doesn't scare me in itself. What scares me is the thought of my Cocoa, Escapade, Lark, Chinook, etc coming down with CL and me having to put another of my babies down. Not going to happen if I can help it. There is nothing more heartbreaking than the sight of a beautiful, healthy, shiny, quality goat with a big lump under her ear, on her jaw, neck, shoulder area...........I know, I've been there. And I'm not going back.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

LizinNH said:


> So, i cleaned and dressed the leg and side then cleaned the absess out. Removed pus, flushed with iodine, then applied blu kote.
> The pus was smooth, green and tainted with blood. The skin that came off the top of it still had hair on it but looked dried out and scabbed.


Your description could fit a CL abcess, it could also fit an abcess from other sources. Being on the udder, it could be a walled off staph infection which can cause abcesses as well. Did you send any of the pus in for testing??
I hope its not CL. Seems unlikely if you haven't brought any other goats in in the last year or so, though *not* impossible.


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## Ken in Maine (May 10, 2002)

Hi Emily;

I agree with 99.9% of what you said.. the point I disagree with is that I am giving people "false security".. I am giving them reality. Goats have disease.. goats need to be managed properly ... that means, to me, not over reacting to every lump and bump your goats get. I am in the "goat business" this is not a hobby and my goats are not pets. They are livestock.. they are raised for breeding and eating.

If you have less than 15 or 20 goats you might be able to afford to have a vet run out to your farm for every concern but when you are operating a "bottom line" farm Vet calls will cause you to go broke very quickly. My point in saying this is that people can get worked up to a fever pitch over some of these issues without understanding the true dynamics of their animals.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Ken in Maine said:


> Hi Emily;
> 
> I agree with 99.9% of what you said.. the point I disagree with is that I am giving people "false security".. I am giving them reality. Goats have disease.. goats need to be managed properly ... that means, to me, not over reacting to every lump and bump your goats get. I am in the "goat business" this is not a hobby and my goats are not pets. They are livestock.. they are raised for breeding and eating.
> 
> If you have less than 15 or 20 goats you might be able to afford to have a vet run out to your farm for every concern but when you are operating a "bottom line" farm Vet calls will cause you to go broke very quickly. My point in saying this is that people can get worked up to a fever pitch over some of these issues without understanding the true dynamics of their animals.


Hi Ken, I am not suggesting running to the vet with every lump and bump.  But if you have an honest-to-goodness abcess(not a bump, bite or bruise), it only makes economical sense to have it tested rather than run the risk of infecting the entire herd. Last time I had the contents of an abcess tested, it cost me under $30 for the whole thing. It was *cheap* peace of mind. I lanced it and collected the pus myself so no vet visit fee. It turned out to be staph....and it was sweet relief.  

At this moment I have almost 175 goats on this farm(yes, they all have names  ). It is a business and I haven't run to the vet except for supplies in a long time. I fix 99.9% of my problems myself. I understand what your saying about the bottom line. But I also stand by my saying that for most people, it is highly desirable, they have an abcess tested rather than choosing to ignore it or put the animal down without *knowing* what it is they are dealing with. Leaving a goat to possibly infect the whole herd because they wrote it off as "unlikely to be CL" is just as irresponsible as putting an animal down on a "suspicion" of CL, in my opinion, probably more so. I have seen *lots* of abcesses in my life...and only two that were not CL.
So for $30....I reccomend testing that suspicious abcess. It sure is cheaper than possibly infecting your entire herd. :shrug: 
You and I may just have to disagree on this .1%.


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## Ken in Maine (May 10, 2002)

You and I are basically saying the same thing... My point was the idea of false security.

I believe that a suspicious abscess should be tested... I don't believe that a blood test is going to show anything. I definately don't believe you should put down a goat just because it has a lump.. 

It comes down to knowing your animals and doing what you feel is best for your herd.


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## goatmarm (Nov 19, 2005)

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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Ken in Maine said:


> You and I are basically saying the same thing....
> 
> I believe that a suspicious abscess should be tested...


Well, I certainly do think that the abcess described is suspicious. I have seen CL abcesses just like she described and I've also seen a staph abcess just like she described. But I think its too late to test the contents anyway, unless she saved it. Didn't sound like it. :shrug:


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

Can someone tell me what a CL abscess feels like? My does swelling just feels jiggly, like water or something in there. There's no knot or "lump". 

Also, even us small herd types can't always afford a vet. We just spent $80 on Albon.....to get a vet to come out in the middle of the country here to check an abscess would not be cheap. : (

Dee


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

*Most* Cl abcesses start out just a lump, bump or knot under the skin. If you catch it early, its very small, just detectable by feel. It grows(at differing rates), and as it "ripens" it becomes softer and softer on top. The hair will eventually start falling off the top of it, and the skin will look flaky. At this point it is ready to burst and should be taken care of before it can if thats what you have decided to do. Some are *very* large, some may only be the size of a marble.
What you have described does not sound like a CL abcess or any type of abcess to me. But I'm not there and its not my judgement call. I would treat it with suspicion anyway.


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## goatmarm (Nov 19, 2005)

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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

What you have described does not sound like a CL abcess or any type of abcess to me. But I'm not there and its not my judgement call. I would treat it with suspicion anyway>>>>

Yes, I agree and I am treating it with suspicion. And worrying myself over it. I don't know what "abscess" really means......this is like a pocket of something jiggly or squishy that sticks out. I didn't mean to hyjack your thread, Liz......

Did you find out what you were dealing with? How is your goat doing? I don't know what I would do in your situation -- except make sure the goat didn't have a fever in case it gets infected from ripping open. I hope you get some answers. This stuff is scary.

I lost a doe to polio last fall....and then had cocci......and then an abortion...and now this. I'm ready for some happy news. From me or anyone!

Dee


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

*First my statement was "most" all goats will test positive for the antibody. I didn't make a blanket statement. If you had any knowledge of the blood test you would understand that it simply is a test for "at risk" factors. *

and this is still wrong ken. i had talked to the wsu lab and uc davis, no problem to name my source here  
you will get test results that read 1:8 negative, never exposed to the bacterium and than you get 1:8 pos. but since so low it still counts as negative. it only means they where exposed in one way or another with the bacterium. everything that goes higher than 1:8 is counted as positive. 
all the animals i have tested are negative. if you don't mean *most* don't say it. it can be very misleading as to we don't care because they are positive anyway :shrug:


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## white eagle (Feb 8, 2007)

CL - If it is a hard lump, usually about the size of a quarter, and is located in the area of a lymph glad, it could be CL (Caseous Lymphadenitis) 

Not ever lump and bump is going to be CL. A lump or bump can be other things such as a sting from a bee, bite from a dog or many other things. Everytime someone see a bump or lump come up first thing hits their mind is OH IT"S CL not true. If you have a clean herd how could you get CL? 

Do you show your goats if so then you could have gotten CL.
Do you go and buy goats from a auction? If so then you might have gotten CL.
You can get CL from showing goats or by buying goats from a auction or other places such as if you bought goats from some else that has goats are they a clean herd? Someone that has a clean herd doesn't go buying from auctions or because they feel sorry for a goat. You can also get CL from Hay if you buy hay from a place that has had animals with CL. It take years to get rid of that crap. CL is a diease that isn't easy to get rid of. 

If you have a goat that has a lump or bump on it that doesn't mean to jump on saying on my goat has CL the true and 100% way of knowing is when you lance the lump is to collect the pus and take it to the vet that knows what they are doing and what they are looking for. Not every vet is going to have the knowledge to know what to look for. 

There are many different types of bumps that come up here is a few of them. Cheek abscesses,cud retention, salivary mucocele, tooth root abscess, and there are a few others. 

A CL bump will be located in these areas: CL abscesses most commonly occur under the jaw and down the front of the neck and under the ears going down the neck.

GL with your goats.


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## Ken in Maine (May 10, 2002)

This is a thread that will go on "ad nauseum" simply trying to scare people about the lumps.

Guess if I only had a few acres of land and some fancy show goats that were "negative" I'd try to spread fear in others to make my goats better than anyone else.

Goats are goats. Just because you tested "negative" today doesn't mean they won't test "negative" tomorrow...

You can test blood all you want and you will get different results on different days.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

Ken in Maine said:


> This is a thread that will go on "ad nauseum" simply trying to scare people about the lumps.
> 
> Guess if I only had a few acres of land and some fancy show goats that were "negative" I'd try to spread fear in others to make my goats better than anyone else.
> 
> ...



it is not making my herd better but make people aware of diseases in goats that can be prevented. it makes me sick to my stomach how a lot of meat goat breeder play this disease down, treat the lumps with formaldehyde and bring this meat on our table.
thank you very much.
i tell you what, my herd will test negative again if i test tomorrow. i'm intending to keep it this way.


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## LizinNH (Feb 2, 2003)

wow, I did not intend for my question to start such an argument.

I have read all the info in the sticky at the top of the site, I also own a couple of books on goats and the merck vet manual. I have read through several websites on Cl as well. My question was not asked out of ignorance of the disease but rather to find some info that was not covered clearly in any of the info I read. 

As i stated the vet was not concerned, and gave me no info about bringing him a sample for testing. I would have if I had been given instructions on transporting such a sample. I did not think to do a sniff test for odor. When my finances allow I will see about having the state vet do a blood test for CL on both goats. 

As for the doe she is healing very quickly. The hole is closing nicely. No oozing or bleeding from the site. I have been concered about fly strike but so far she seems to be in the clear there as well. The burns as have also scabbed over nicely. She is eating and drinking fine.

While my goats are a great sorce of joy for me, these will be only two I ever have. They will live the rest of their lives as pets. I will not pass them on to any one else.


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## Feral Nature (Feb 21, 2007)

susanne said:


> it is not making my herd better but make people aware of diseases in goats that can be prevented. it makes me sick to my stomach how a lot of meat goat breeder play this disease down, treat the lumps with formaldehyde and bring this meat on our table.
> thank you very much.
> i tell you what, my herd will test negative again if i test tomorrow. i'm intending to keep it this way.



I have to agree with susanne. I have seen herds ravaged with CL. It is a horrible disease. I have seen breeders pass off CL infected stock, with huge softball-sized abcesses, toothpaste like puss dropping out all over the ground. This was all in the early 90's before internet sites like this one were available for education. Cl is something I defginately panic over...I have seen it.

My herd has tested neg. for CL and I aim to keep it that way. Therefore I ONLY buy from breeders who are paranoid and anal about testing their goats, isolating new stock and buying from other breeders who are like minded. It does not make my herd "better", it helps me sleep at night.


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

If someone has bought and sold thousands of goats over 20 years and has never bought from tested {neg} herds and has never had a case of CL they should play the lottery cause they are the luckiest person on earth! [prophead] Now I will stop beating :bdh: cause some people will always be right.


Patty


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## goatmarm (Nov 19, 2005)

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