# Feeding only fodder?



## Juggaloblink (Jul 8, 2014)

Hi, so lately ive been looking at getting into growing my own food, and I have always been one to figure out problems and ive noticed that feed will be my only cost as far as livestock goes. 

So I started researching and found hydroponically grown barley, seems simple enough, but I know very little on all the fancy acronyms that goes along with homesteading, so I was curious, can I feed out pigs, chickens and rabbits solely on sprouted fodder? ive searched and haven't seen an exact answer to my question. 

Looking to start soon so any help, tips or comments are appreciated. Thanks


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

You mention hydroponically grown barley and fodder. I have no idea what you have read, but most of the online literature about barley as animal feed is discussing sprouted barley as fodder. 

In this case, you are not "growing" anything. You are simply sprouting. This can be done in total darkness. All that is needed is warmth and moisture. Hydroponically grown crops will have light and nutrient needs; a far more complex system. 

Barley is often chosen for fodder because it is "easy". It doesnt have many mold problems and requires little management to sprout. That's why I suspect you are talking about sprouting and not true growing. 

Sprouting is not the magic bullet that some people are claiming it to be. If your animals are penned in a barn with no access to greens, it can be a cost effective means to provide greens. Sprouting allows the production of some enzymes and amino acid chains, so there are nutritional benefits. 

Step back from the hype for a second and think about what you are going to be asking of that animal. It will have to survive and perform on a diet of one thing; sprouted barley. Feeds are a blend of things because certain grains are rich in one amino acid while low in others. By combining the right ingredients, we provide the balance of nutrition the animals need. 

There are other ways to provide that nutrition that doesnt come in a commercial bag, and fodder can certainly be a part of that system. But a magic bullet one size fits all? Nope.


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## cooper101 (Sep 13, 2010)

There was a thread a few months ago about this where many people weighed in who had experience doing it. Mixed reviews as I recall. You might be able to find the thread if you search the forum.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

I would be hesitant to feed _only_ fodder, or only any one thing. Variety is the spice of life and the basis of a good diet as a general rule.

-Walter


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

I too believe as the others have stated, fodder can be a PART of a balanced ration, but can certainly not be a balanced ration. 

Do not take this the wrong way, but feeding any animal ONE single food item defeats the whole purpose of home grown food in my opinion. The main draw back to factory farmed food is the corn/soybean diet. Nothing wrong with either grain, but you will only get the nutrition from the meat that the feed puts in, so you are missing out on many different micro-nutrients available by feeding the livestock a diverse diet of corn, soybean, nuts, grasses, hay, etc. etc, This is what makes a nutrient dense food, putting the diverse nutrients in the animal to begin with. There is quite a bit of hype out there about fodder so choose wisely where you get your information from. Again, I am not saying it can not be a good part of a diet, just please do not try and base the entire animal diet on it, or as Highlands said, try not to base their diet on any one thing.

If self sufficiency is the direction you are going, basing your feed program on one feed is going in the opposite direction, as anything happens to that one system and in short you are screwed. Try to find several different available feeds in your area. You lose one, not a big deal, rely on the others until it is available again or you find something to replace it. That will be much more sustainable for you in the long run.

I would also plan for other expenses besides just feed. I am not doubting your abilities, but do not discount the cost of vet bills and mistakes made by first time owners as well as simple accidents and bad luck. Plan to spend some money on fecal test every 3 to 6 months to find out what parasites are affecting your animals. Plan on investing in some medical equipment, tube feeders, syringes, various antibiotics to keep on hand, iron. These are just a few items you may find useful to have around. A scalpel with disposable blades will come in handy for castration. Take some animals to the vet the first few years and figure it an education expense, this will help you learn how to recognize and treat various ailments that will be common in pigs. 
Infrastructure cost is often under-figured. Fencing, re-fencing, pasture management, this will all cost money and be somewhat of a continuing expense.

Sorry if I told you things you may already know, but if so, maybe the info will help some one reading up and getting ready to jump in. 

Best of luck to you.


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## Mosherd1 (Nov 12, 2011)

Does anyone feed fodder to pigs on pasture? I have a new lot that I am renting and I am not sure what will grow there so I was thinking about growing/sprouting alfalfa to increase the protein. Just trying to do everything I can to reduce dependence and cost of grain. Would this work or just be wasting time since they are already on pasture? Thanks,
-Dave


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## Juggaloblink (Jul 8, 2014)

Ok, you guys keep telling someone new to this what he is wanting to do is wrong, how about some idea on what is right? Mixing fodder in with this or that to create a cheap substantial food regime that will work until harvest day comes?


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Juggaloblink said:


> Ok, you guys keep telling someone new to this what he is wanting to do is wrong, how about some idea on what is right? Mixing fodder in with this or that to create a cheap substantial food regime that will work until harvest day comes?


You were told in great depth what you need to do. You have to look at the resources in your area and find what works for you. If you cannot or will not do that, bags of commercial feed have already done that work for you.

I will edit and try to be more compassionate. I understand the replies were a let down. You read on the internet how five minutes a day with $20 in infrastructure could double the protein content of cheap ordinary grain, and you saw it as the solution to every ptoblem; mainly, how can I make money doing this. 

But let me appeal to your logical mind for a bit. If feeding sprouted grains was the simple solution those people say it is, dont you find it shocking the commercial pork producers are not all over it? Collectively, they have billions of dollars invested with access to even more in capital. The national University system and the USDA are supporting them with continual feeding studies trying to find a $1 per unit savings in feed costs. Do you seriously think they have completely overlooked the articles on Backyard Chickens regarding fodder? 

Honestly, you knew it was too good to be true. Just like finding out your Superman action figure only shoots red lasers from his eyes on a TV commercial, it stings a little. There is no magic bullet to get something for free. You either trade time for money, or money for time. Which do you have?


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Mosherd1 said:


> Does anyone feed fodder to pigs on pasture? I have a new lot that I am renting and I am not sure what will grow there so I was thinking about growing/sprouting alfalfa to increase the protein. Just trying to do everything I can to reduce dependence and cost of grain. Would this work or just be wasting time since they are already on pasture? Thanks,
> -Dave


What would it take to answer the question "what will grow here"? Unless you are in a barren wasteland, something grows there. Take a soil test if needed, or just experiment. I would think just sprouting alfalfa would get quite expensive. 

For those of you who have read online articles about how fodder increases protein, please consider something rather basic. If an animal will eat five poinds of "something" per day to be full and stop eating, your job is to make sure that five pounds contains all the daily nutritional requirements for that animal. Anything less would produce less than optimal results. The farther from the mark you get, the less optimal you see. 

So even if sprouting a grain increases the protein percent, you have also increased the mass. It now takes up more room in the stomach. It is a matter of protein density. Want a sustainable protein dense feed? Raise and feed rabbits. Just hide that fact from your customers. 

Pigs are omnivores like us. They eat plants, grains, and meat. Like us, they will not be healthy eating 100% carrots or beef. It is balance. 

Your animals will likely not die because you strayed from perfect. They just wont gain weight as fast as they could. Its ok to experiment. Apply a little common sense. Feeding tires = bad. Rotten food from landfill = bad. But its quite ok to offer some stale bread you got a deal on, or 4 tons of pumpkins that didnt sell at Halloween, or whatever happens to be in your area. Just be prepared to balance it all out if needed. There is no magic gotta have protein number UNLESS you demand your hog be ready in X days.


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

I understand some of your frustrations. We have all been there at some point. No one here was born raising pigs, we all started somewhere at some time, just as you are doing. I know I am not active here all the time, but I do know enough of the regulars here to tell you the info. being given is meant to be helpful, not to discourage you.

I am sure you have done some research on fodder and I am sure at first it seemed like that magic feed for everything. I have had an opportunity to visit with several of the big fodder system providers and talk to them in length. I can also tell you the big money in fodder is selling the equipment and supplies to do it. Anytime there is profit to be made, there is always incentive to over sale something. I think that is what has been done with fodder systems. Yes, some people build their own cheaper systems and if you have the time and knowledge to do so, it can get you started a little cheaper.

Riceguy makes a good point and this is a question you must answer. Do you have money to trade for time, or time (labor) to trade for money? I have talked with several people feeding fodder and at some point the people I have talked to all came to the same conclusion, labor and time consumption to produce the fodder. They are all trying to figure a way to cut down on the labor to actually grow and then feed the fodder. On a hobby scale, not a big deal, but to make any real gains it gets to be time consuming.

You will have to find what is available in your area. if you want to try and feed fodder, by all means do so. I simply would not plan on it as the base of my feed program, but as a add on or treat. They will eat it, they will like it. I can almost assure you, you will in time tire of making the fodder. I have tried many different feeds and I can tell you I have found several money saving feeds. Cull sweet potatoes, mixed with whole corn, ground together then fermented with a yeast culture. My pigs love it and they did well on it. The cost was good. The problem? Labor intensive, high summer temps causes problems, as well as freezing. Every alternative feed will have some drawback. But you need to find what alternative feed is available in your area, and plan to try them on some test scale, we simply do not know what that is for you. Tell us what you can get in your area and we can really help point you in a direction as far as a feed program. Look for cheese factories, milking facilities, bread plants, large mono-crop grain/corn farms. All of these can be good sources of economical feed for you. 

Store bought sack feed is very economical in most cases, if you have full time work. Look at a sack of feed, 50#, look at the nutrition in it? Most people with a normal job probably make an hourly wage which would buy at least 1 or probably 2 sacks. Now ask yourself, how many hours will it take me to make something similar? If you have free time and can work on this alternative feed when you simply could not be working anyway, now it may be more viable. Yes, there is something to be said for not being dependent on the feed store. I fully understand that as well. 

Here is my honest opinion for anyone starting new. Start by planning to feed sack feed as a supplement to your pasture. look in your area for any and all alternative feeds available. Plan to introduce them into your feed program on test scales. You do not want to invest large amounts of $$ on infrastructure or large amounts of something only to find it does not work, is too labor intensive etc. Do your additions in such a way you can actually track the gain from them (or loss) NEVER stop looking for other alternative feed sources. 

The best money spent? Fecals!! parasites can eat up all of the nutrition in your feed, make sure you are only feeding your pigs, not a bunch of worms or parasites. This can drastically affect your feed cost and weight gains. Ask me how I know!! We all have to learn. Fecals will cost you about $15 at a vet. 

The next best money. For any animal really. Focus on feed they can harvest themselves. Any time we have to handle feed, it cost money. Move feed, it cost money, process feed, it cost money, sack feed, it cost money. The most economical feed will be one that the animal can directly harvest. Spent your money improving your pastures and forages and growing feeds which the pig can directly harvest. I am not saying you will achieve a 100% feed the first year doing this, but it will be the best money spent towards a sustainable feeding system.

Fencing, Yes, fencing is part of a feed system. Spend all the money you want on grass seed and fertilizer and if you can not rotate your animals so the grass and forages can actually get going it is wasted. pasture management with fencing is an essential part of the complete program.

Ok, hopefully this has given you some of the information you are searching for. Feed some sack feed to start. Try the fodder, but maintain good records and look for other alternative feeds available in your area. Let us know what you find available to you. Take a good look at your fencing and pasture, can you improve that to help out your with your feed production?

Note: When looking for alternative feeds, keep one thing in mind. People who may have something you can use often does not have a good place to go with it to begin with. Not too many people raising hogs on a small scale any more really. Try to make a deal which offers them some benefit as well as you and you can make a long lasting relationship. If it is a hardship for them they may not want to do it. This may mean you have to provide containers or a trailer etc. to make it easy for them to collect this food stuff for you. Also do not underestimate the fear some people have today of regulatory agencies and their overreach and oversight. You need to insure the farmer or producer you do not plan to advertise your arrangement in some cases, so they feel comfortable providing you with this food stuff.


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

I just want to make one point about fodder after reading back through some of the other post. There is some mention of dependence on grain or dependence on feed (sack feed). Lets be honest about this, unless you are growing your own barley or alfalfa etc. and have the needed infrastructure to harvest and separate the seeds and store the seeds, you still need to buy the grain somewhere, so there is still a dependence on someone for the grain to make the fodder from. The exception of course would be if your neighbor Joe down the road is a grain farmer and you can get it from him, but now you are dependent on Joe! 

A self sustaining farm with NO outside inputs would be great, but I am not sure it is really possible in most cases. There will always be some outside inputs needed. I do agree when we can reduce these outside inputs it is a good thing, but it normally takes quite a bit of investment in infrastructure to do so and lots of time setting all of the infrastructure up. We will also more than likely limit our output potential as well, as there is only so many hours in a day to do everything yourself. My advice, do the things you enjoy and pay to have the things you do not enjoy done for you. Life is to short to spend time doing things we hate to do.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

On top of the excellent points made by Muleman, I want to throw out there a term called "opportunity cost".

In a nutshell, any choice you make with a resource carries an opportunity cost. Your decision to raise pigs means you have commited resources that could have been used for other things. That lost other thing is your opportunity cost. 

Let's say you grew yourself a bag of feed; some generic corn/soybean mix. Just because you did not go to a store and buy it, that does not make it free. You could have chosen to sell the grains. It was worth something. You could choose to sell the mixed feed. Now it should be worth even more. These values are your true cost. Do not find yourself someday feeding a bag of homegrown feed worth $15 so you can avoid buying a $10 bag. 

These are business principles. Large companies use complex accounting methods to avoid these very ideas. You are now a businessman as well as a pig farmer. It will pay you well to pay attention to sound business practices.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Juggaloblink said:


> Ok, you guys keep telling someone new to this what he is wanting to do is wrong, how about some idea on what is right? Mixing fodder in with this or that to create a cheap substantial food regime that will work until harvest day comes?


Ok, I want to tell you about a plant I am experimenting with on my property. It is called Comfrey. There is the natural kind that freely seeds itself any many consider it an invasive weed. Used in a pig paddock, might be a benefit. 

Then there are hybrids called Bocking 4 and Bocking 14. They do not seed and are propogated by root cuttings. They are famous as a bioaccumulator. The roots reach very deep to mine nutrients that are transported to the leaves. They can be grazed or fed after cutting. The plant holds the world record for tonnage per acre. 

Go read a little. Look at the protein content of the leaves. You might want to experiment like me. Btw, it handles 110F and -50F just fine. You will need grow space and test to see if your animals find it palitable. 

Need a place to make use of manure? Dump 3-4 inches on Comfrey. It will grow through it and convert it all into biomass.


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## Paul O (Sep 13, 2004)

I looked into fodder a few years ago. It certainly has some appeal but the further I got into it, the more I came to the conclusion that it wasn't the cheap feed that it appeared to be. It is more digestible and I like the idea of feeding live food versus dried, processed grain but when you look at what you would be feeding out, it is mostly water, If you start with X amount of grain and you sprout it, the major weight gain is water.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Pigs are monogastrics, they can't utilize all of the nutrients found in fodder.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

One thing to clarify when discussing this is what is 'fodder' because some people mean sprouted grain, some people mean sprouted grain that has grown to about 6" to 12" and some people mean pasture forages which can run the gamut of plant species from grasses to clovers to brassicas and more.

Sprouting the grain and feeding the sprouts, just sprouted or grown some, is rather like feeding grain. The soaking and sprouting is one way of making it more digestible. I don't do that simply because it's a lot of work and means you are still buying grain - not a resource can produce easily or locally.

The monogastrics issue is a red herring. Our pigs eat pasture and hay and can thrive on that although the growth rate is slower and they're leaner than on a grain diet - of course. The addition of dairy or eggs or such can bring the growth rate and marbling up nicely. Genetics matter for this as do management practices and pasture makeup.

-Walter


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## FodderWorks (Apr 15, 2016)

I'd be happy to address any of the fodder questions (referring to sprouted grains). To answer the the original question, no it cannot be a complete ration. It absolutely needs to be balanced with other feeds. In particular you need more fiber and dry roughage with it. Fodder digests very quickly, so the additional fiber helps to slow it down and absorb more of the benefits.

For pigs some have gone with things close to 100% fodder along with pasture. They require extra supplementation in that case, particularly lysine. Lysine is an essential amino acid that pigs simply can't gain weight without. 

Always balance the feed, fodder works wonders - but as stated above isn't a magical feed that replaces everything.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

FodderWorks said:


> I'd be happy to address any of the fodder questions (referring to sprouted grains). To answer the the original question, no it cannot be a complete ration. It absolutely needs to be balanced with other feeds. In particular you need more fiber and dry roughage with it. Fodder digests very quickly, so the additional fiber helps to slow it down and absorb more of the benefits.
> 
> For pigs some have gone with things close to 100% fodder along with pasture. They require extra supplementation in that case, particularly lysine. Lysine is an essential amino acid that pigs simply can't gain weight without.
> 
> Always balance the feed, fodder works wonders - but as stated above isn't a magical feed that replaces everything.


I truly hate to ask this, but can you state some credentials so I can make a reasonable decision about your data? I do have questions, specific questions, and have an interest in using fodder as part of a feeding rations. But, I need to know who is giving me data.


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## FodderWorks (Apr 15, 2016)

I am the GM of FodderWorks.net. I realize that alone doesn't give me any credentials that some of you would consider trust worthy. So don't take my word for it. Ask away and I'll refer to to someone with experience or research so you can answer your own question.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Excellent, and that is a fair answer. I would not discount your answers simply because of potential economic gain, but it lets me know where you are coming from. Thank you for that disclosure. 

In my area, milo (sorghum) is a readily available economic grain. Also available are corn and wheat. As a ration, how do you see either of these grains being incorporated into a feeding system? My animals are on pasture. How does one determine what supplements are needed as additives? My reluctance to consider fodder is directly tied to the inability to quantify the total ration.

Let me complicate it by saying that I feed mature breeding stock as well as market growers.


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## FodderWorks (Apr 15, 2016)

Let me turn the question back to a degree so I can better answer. What is your current ration? If you have any specific things you'd like to replace, let me know what they are. Also let me know specifically what animals you're feeding.

For sprouts, wheat is likely to be your best bet. Corn can also work and some people mix in a little. It's much higher in starch, so that may or may not be desirable.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

I am currently feeding commercial bagged feed in pellet form. Nothing special about it. It is from a local manufacturer, Wendlands Best. It is a swine ration fed to breeding stock, but now that I have piglets, will also soon be buying a grower ration. My animals have as much available pasture as they care to eat, but as long as concentrated grain is available, I doubt I am gaining a tremendous benefit from that.

I am paying roughly $11 per 50# bag. The cheapest mon-gmo feed comes in at $28, with organic even higher. My goal is to reach the non-gmo standard which I cannot do with my current feed. The $28 feed is not economically feasible as a primary ration, so something had to offset these higher feed costs to be viable. This is why I became interested in fodder some months ago, as a potential. 

Where I ended up is unable to formulate a ration that I could be comfortable with ad providing proper nutrition. Small producers do not have staff nutritionists, nor do I have any idea how to find one, or a lab who could analyze a ration sample. It became technically overwhelming and was abandoned as an idea that I could use in my operation. I thought, at best, I could revisit later when I was larger and economies of scale became more effective. It was a disappointing ending for me. 

So the questions are:

How does a small producer evaluate a ration, which would include fodder, as being able to meet production goals? Nutritional needs? I realise this is the work of an animal nutritionist, but that is what is needed. The bag of feed has done that work for you so becomes a very convenient item in the absence of technical knowledge. 

Is labatory testing of a ration needed to evaluate a proposed ration? If so, are there any available that can work for small producers? We can get overlooked because our potential revenue to a firm is small. 

Anything I failed to answer?


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## FodderWorks (Apr 15, 2016)

Thanks, all good questions. I realize it's not swine, but this is a producer that made the switch from pelletized feeds for exactly the same reason. She wanted to get rid of the GMO feed. [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-V14yh1fRc[/ame] I can get you her phone number if you wanted to talk about that transition and how it went for them.

There are going to be some unknowns as few people are using fodder for pigs. There's no formal research that I'm aware of specific to swine and fodder. There is a "Fodder" Facebook group if you wanted to reach out over there and ask for more opinions. I can dig around and try to find some contacts feeding pigs for you as well.

I am also not a nutritionist, but I do have plenty of lab tests on fodder. (We've fed quite a few hogs out on it locally too. EXCELLENT taste) For cattle, CSU has determined through their research that 2lbs of wet fodder can replace 1lb of dry grain on an energy basis. It's hard to say if the same is true for pigs, but it's the best research example I can go on for this situation.

Your current feed comes out to a cost of 22 cent per lb. I'm going to guess you can get wheat for mid 20 something cents per lb, but I like to be extra conservative on figures. Let's say seed cost you 30 cents per lb. 1lb of seed will grow into 6.5lbs of sprouts. (This is where the dry matter guys get confused.) It's not 1lb of seed with 5.5lbs of water. Chlorophyll, enzymes, they are all things in the sprouts that are NOT present in the dry grain. They are also liquids. There's a reason people juice wheat grass for health benefits. If it was "only water" - they would only be drinking wheat grass water! We know that's just not the case.

Add in some electricity cost and you're looking at a production expense of 5 to 6 cents per lb. Being conservative, let's use 6 cents. At a replacement rate to grain of 2:1, you'll need 2lbs of fodder for every lb of traditional feed you replace. That puts the replacement cost at 12 cents. Since you're currently paying 22 cents, you can see this would potentially save some money compared to your current feeding program - it all depends on how much you can actually replace.

Since traditional feeds add in the essential amino acids for hogs, I'll assume we still need 50% of a standard hog feed. I know people do more, I'm just throwing out an example.

Half of your ration is now 6 cents per lb, with other half of Non-GMO feed at 56 cents per lb. You're average cost would be 31 cents per lb for a complete, Non-GMO ration that's much healthier than before. If you can work more fodder in to replace more of the expensive feed, the cost will of course come down further. Ideally you'll be getting a premium for the meat to make this worthwhile.

I have lab tests on fodder if you want to evaluate a total ration done this way. The difficult parts are the enzymes as they are far more expensive to test. (I am working on those now however) For basic analysis, I know labs that can do that for you for pretty reasonable rates.

As far as feeding fodder, I would introduce it slowly, monitor your weight gains and see that the ration still meets your production goals as they grow. For cattle and other animals I could be more specific on exactly what to feed. The research is still lacking for swine.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

I am very pleased you have joined this discussion. While some people on both sides of a fence can be overly skeptical, good data usually wins. It is not often that small producers, which dominate these forums, are actively courted by manufacturers or process engineers. They tend to be far more focused on the 10 million dollar PO. 

The producer in that video has an economy of scale that I cannot match. Instead of tons per day, I personally deal in bags per week, pounds per day. I realise the cost savings per unit are linear, but the capital investment side becomes a barrier as well. 

If I might intrude upon your business for a brief moment, whoever simplifies this process to the point it becomes usable to the growing enthusiasts crowd would make a bundle of money. As an example, buy this DIY plan based on common items found in a Home Depot, feed this with that in X ratio, and you have a complete ration in 5 or 10 pound per day increments. I think many plans would be sold. 

Not only would I buy that plan, I would sign up with an annual fee for technical support on rations. There is just not enough dollars in my feed budget right now that allows you to solve a problem for me (gmo vs non-gmo) which allows you a healthy profit. However, s $49 plan with a $35 annual subscription to the latest species specific data is something I would jump on. If I managed to grow into an economy of scale and needed a ton per day of feed, I would know who to talk to, right?

I see the subject of fodder come up on forums often. Small poultry flock owners, goat and lamb owners, etc. most times the conclusion is "too complicated to do right". 

Perhaps you can help simplify it. No need for a sales pitch. It is already something I want. It just has to be a technology that reaches my scale.


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## FodderWorks (Apr 15, 2016)

I've tried to make a small scale fodder system - but it's difficult. Getting the quality and precision we like to have is hard to put into a small package. I agree that a small semi-DIY system would do great, but it's difficult to make at a reasonable price point. I think that's what it all comes down to. If it's not something that is beneficial to the producer, we're not really interested in selling it. The best thing I think I can do is provide guidelines on how to properly feed it - available to anyone, no cost involved. There's no reason or motivation to grow it if you don't know what to do with it after that.

That COULD change as we have a new system designed for poultry that is much cheaper and simpler. I think it has a place for hogs as well. We grow to a shorter point than other systems. I'd like to see some testing on feeding pigs these 4 day sprouts vs the 6 day growth in our other systems. I think it would be valuable information to know. It might provide a simpler way to sprout for the small backyard hog producers.

Lately the technology has been scaling the opposite direction - large automated systems. Naturally there's more money in that, but we need people as a whole to understand fodder. That applies to everyone no matter how many animals they raise.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Understood. Simple business principles at work. I can understand how not all things scale to miniature well. People are using buckets and cafeteria trays presently. You are part of a growing industry. When the large producer market (money) has been saturated, maybe the small scale side will get further attention. I will watch as the process expands and gets refined. It will work for me one day I hope. Thank you.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Lysine is important but there are sources of lysine on pasture - it does require eating higher levels of food. The reason commercial hog feeds are balanced the way they are is to minimize the amount of input feed while maximizing the output meat. On a high pasture diet the pigs eat more but it isn't like they need time to do other things and the slightly longer growing time can greatly over come the high cost of grain feed. I mention this because growth and lysine tend to get trotted out without a deeper understanding of nutrition and pasture economics.

-Walter


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

Would you be willing to expand on that highlands with some specifics?


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

thericeguy said:


> Understood. Simple business principles at work. I can understand how not all things scale to miniature well. People are using buckets and cafeteria trays presently. You are part of a growing industry. When the large producer market (money) has been saturated, maybe the small scale side will get further attention. I will watch as the process expands and gets refined. It will work for me one day I hope. Thank you.


It may work for the lady with deer who has customers who can afford to pay high price for her meat. 

I did look at this awhile back for my cattle and pigs along with some men at the U of Mo. No way would it work for me cost wise, about double or more not counting the extra labor.


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## FodderWorks (Apr 15, 2016)

gerold said:


> It may work for the lady with deer who has customers who can afford to pay high price for her meat.
> 
> I did look at this awhile back for my cattle and pigs along with some men at the U of Mo. No way would it work for me cost wise, about double or more not counting the extra labor.


Would you be interested in sharing your numbers and figures?


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## davidlewin (Mar 26, 2016)

What are the sources of lysine on pasture?

Given this wiki entry, I don't think that there is much on most of the land that is used to feed pigs unless you plant it. See the portion titled "dietary sources". 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysine



highlands said:


> Lysine is important but there are sources of lysine on pasture...
> -Walter


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Then plant it. There is no reason not to improve your pastures.


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## davidlewin (Mar 26, 2016)

so there's basically no source of lysine unless you plant it? 



highlands said:


> Then plant it. There is no reason not to improve your pastures.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

davidlewin said:


> so there's basically no source of lysine unless you plant it?


http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/m...on_pigs/nutritional_requirements_of_pigs.html

http://passel.unl.edu/pages/informa...rmationmodule=1017786502&topicorder=3&maxto=7

Good links above to help you understand the need for Lysine and also where it comes from etc.


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## TrickyRick86 (Nov 7, 2013)

I actually did this last winter. Not for pigs since I just got them but to supplement my sheep's diet. I tried to replace the hay that I had to feed and for the most part it worked. We only fed 8 bales of hay over the winter for six sheep. I didn't find it that expensive to get started. We went to the dollar store for the tubs and just used a larger container as a reservoir. A pond pump to pump the water to the tubs through black water pipe and 1/4 inch sprayers that are on a timer. The main cost is that I had to build a very well insulated room to keep the temps between 60-70 degF. A small space heater did the job fine. As many have said I would not feed just fodder to my sheep or my pigs. 

One thing nobody has said (I think?) is that the barley can be augmented with both vitamins and other seeds. My sheep like to have sprouted sunflower seeds added to it. Once they got used to it they seemed to like it and it was definitely cheaper than hay to feed. They also had pasture of course. Any questions I would be happy to answer to the extent of my experience. I DO NOT sell fodder systems and just made my own.


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## cmcpherson (Nov 15, 2010)

thericeguy said:


> Want a sustainable protein dense feed? Raise and feed rabbits.


Are you suggesting raising rabbits for hog feed?
I plan to grow out 2-3 a year. How many rabbits would need to be produced to supplement feeding 3 hogs?


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

cmcpherson said:


> Are you suggesting raising rabbits for hog feed?
> I plan to grow out 2-3 a year. How many rabbits would need to be produced to supplement feeding 3 hogs?


I have no idea. It is nothing I have researched as I know my clients would totally balk at eating something being fed fluffy balls of cuteness.

My intuition tells me you would be ahead of the game selling the rabbits and buying feed, but perhaps you have a hunting situation available to you.


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## cmcpherson (Nov 15, 2010)

thericeguy said:


> I have no idea.


Oh... it seemed from the quote that I included, that you were suggesting harvesting rabbits as hog food.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

I did suggest it is possible. Hogs eat meat. All kinds of meat. Meat is high on the protein scale and would be part of a very natural diet. If you can raise rabbits cheaper than something else, its a legit choice. I have no experience doing it as I said, my clients would throw a walleyed fit over it.


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## jordie (May 12, 2016)

Juggaloblink said:


> Hi, so lately ive been looking at getting into growing my own food, and I have always been one to figure out problems and ive noticed that feed will be my only cost as far as livestock goes.
> 
> So I started researching and found hydroponically grown barley, seems simple enough, but I know very little on all the fancy acronyms that goes along with homesteading, so I was curious, can I feed out pigs, chickens and rabbits solely on sprouted fodder? ive searched and haven't seen an exact answer to my question.
> 
> Looking to start soon so any help, tips or comments are appreciated. Thanks


You can, but they don't get enough out of sprouted grain. Pigs need grain and meals..... pigs don't have 4 stomachs like cattle and sheep and goats do....they don't have a rumen so they cannot make their own food from poor food. They have to be given good food from the word go or otherwise they don't grow and put on the weight quickly enough.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

No, pigs don't "need" grain. They can get by quite well without it. They do the extra digestion outside their bodies by letting things compost. Different strategy.

I've raise many thousands of pigs without using commercial hog feed or grain as the basis of their diet. For our pigs they eat about 80%DMI (% Dry Matter Intake) as pasture. Then they eat dairy, primarily whey in our case, which makes up about 7%DMI of their diet. As available they get other things like apples, pears, pumpkins, about 2%DMI spent barley (no energy / calories as that went to feed the yeasty beasties to make the beer), etc. I've raised four groups of pigs purely on pasture. It can be done. It IS slower and they'll be leaner. You're trading money for time. I use the resources I have. A grain diet is fine and simple. Other diets can be done. Grain isn't evil, just expensive.

-Walter


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Grain is very expensive for many of us. The advantage, if it is one at all, is that it is relatively fast weight gain. That doesn't make for guaranteed good eating hogs at all, although maybe better than 'slop' hogs. GIGO. 

I use Blue Seal pellets along with root and graze. As my wild graze peters out mid July, rooting increases, then into Aug. sweet corn overage comes into play. Late Aug, Sept, graze is back along with the full menu. It works for me. A couple times every day I have at least a few pounds of feed in a bucket. When I get close from any given entry point I bang the bucket hard and holler. This trains the pigs to a real treat and should they be rattled buy bear or coyotes, it can bring them in pretty easily. Fact is that you can lead them anywhere if you treat them right.


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## cmcpherson (Nov 15, 2010)

krackin said:


> That doesn't make for guaranteed good eating hogs at all, although maybe better than 'slop' hogs. GIGO.


What do you mean by "slop hog"?
I feed a "slop" of pellets/grain and water but I don't imagine that is what you are referring to.
At the end of everyday, we also feed our table scraps; cooked meats, vegi trimmings, eggs shells etc.
I'm really trying to get a handle of keeping my hogs healthy and well fed in a cost effective way. 
I'll appreciate your insight.


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## thericeguy (Jan 3, 2016)

cmcpherson said:


> What do you mean by "slop hog"?
> I feed a "slop" of pellets/grain and water but I don't imagine that is what you are referring to.
> At the end of everyday, we also feed our table scraps; cooked meats, vegi trimmings, eggs shells etc.
> I'm really trying to get a handle of keeping my hogs healthy and well fed in a cost effective way.
> I'll appreciate your insight.


I suspect they mean hogs fed solely on restaraunt leftovers and the like. Slop. No design as a complete ration.


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## cmcpherson (Nov 15, 2010)

Ahh... I see.


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

cmcpherson said:


> What do you mean by "slop hog"?
> I feed a "slop" of pellets/grain and water but I don't imagine that is what you are referring to.
> At the end of everyday, we also feed our table scraps; cooked meats, vegi trimmings, eggs shells etc.
> I'm really trying to get a handle of keeping my hogs healthy and well fed in a cost effective way.
> I'll appreciate your insight.


Slop is pretty much whatever is leftover from commercial food processors and purveyors. It could be anything and not exactly 'bad'. It often has a high carb content with varying protein and fat. It really isn't a great choice for high end hogs. If you have jiggly 6 month feeders then something is off if you want lean hogs.

Your pellet/grain porridge is called mash here. There is nothing wrong with that at all. You can add what you have been to it, I do except for meat and fish. My canine pals like that so... You are working towards a balanced diet by the looks.


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## cmcpherson (Nov 15, 2010)

krackin said:


> It often has a high carb content with varying protein and fat.
> 
> ...except for meat and fish.


I get the reason for staying away from a high carb. diet but why no meat/fish?
I can get cases of frozen fish heads for almost nothing.
I was also looking forward to using my chicken guts.
Is that a no-no?

That's it Juggaloblink... I won't hijack you thread anymore.


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## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

cmcpherson said:


> I get the reason for staying away from a high carb. diet but why no meat/fish?
> I can get cases of frozen fish heads for almost nothing.
> I was also looking forward to using my chicken guts.
> Is that a no-no?
> ...


I'd use that for predator bait. I'm talking my situation. Actually I'd suggest somebody a couple towns over use it.


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