# Woman seeking a Christian Roommate is cited



## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

for discrimination,after posting the note on church bulletin board. (outrageous ain't it ?)
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=218349


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## Gregg Alexander (Feb 18, 2007)

Sorry but this is horse ****!!!!!!!!!! This young lady has the right to pick and choose her roommate.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

wow...


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## Just Cliff (Nov 27, 2008)

If you notice on the complaint there is a phone number 616-451-2980 for the complainant (Fair Housing Center of West Michigan) Why not give em a call and let em know how you really feel.


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

She has them on Constitutional grounds. She is covered by the first amendment in that she is free to practice her religion, which instructs her to not be yoked with non-blievers. The first amendment also gives her freedom to associate with whomever she chooses. Most any intelligent first year law student could get this one thrown out.


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## Chuck (Oct 27, 2003)

So I guess she can't discriminate by sex, either...which means a man who wants to share her personal space can't be denied. Nice.

I had a run-in with our local newspaper over something similar - I was advertising for a rental house we own, and wanted to state "non-smoking environment." The paper said it violated the fair housing act. 

They were wrong (and I finally got them to relent) because smoking is not something you are, it's something you choose to do. Smoking is something that materially harms the housing unit, and causes extensive damage. I have every right to discriminate against smokers in this way. 

After I threatened legal action, the paper let me post the ad. 

This situation will most likely end up the same way. It's a case of a housing official overstepping their bounds because they don't understand the law.


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

What really gets me is she posted it on her churches bulletin board and some loon trys to make something out of it.I don't guess the devil has any boundaries.But theres a day coming..................


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

You know what is truly hysterical about all this? The note was posted on the CHURCH bulletin board. What wonderful Christian member of her very own Church ratted her out to the State?

I believe we should be able to pick our own roommates to live in our own homes with us. The problem is landlords have discriminated in the past by race, religion, sexual orientation, marital status, kids or no kids and more that I can't think of right now. The laws about discrimination have come out of all that. This case sounds like some over zealous wanna be PC do gooder and an equally over zealous State Civil Rights "Representative" trying to make a name for themselves. It is going to cost both sides money they don't need to spend on a case that should never have seen the light of day.

More PC stupidity.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> What wonderful Christian member of her very own Church ratted her out to the State?


How do you know someone at the "Fair Housing Center" doesn't attend the same church?


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

*http://libertypundits.net/article/m...urch-bulletin-board-christian-roommate-wanted*

The complaint signed by Tyra Khan, a âCivil Rights Representativeâ of the state of 
Michigan Department of Civil Rights, surfaced when the Alliance Defense Fund 
announced today it was representing the woman who advertised for a "Christian 
roommate on her church bulletin board.


We have to wonder aloud, whether the 'complainant' is a paid civil servant for the state 
of Michigan and what she was doing 'searching' inside a private house of worship for 
such alleged housing violations? Is this a sign of things to come to *ALL* 
such Christian establishments; i.e. that the best way to control those who will not lick 
the boot of the goosesteppers is to totally subjugate them at every opportunity 
and by every means possible.


I am reminded of that verse in Luke 22 in which Jesus is commenting on the prophecy 
concerning the messiah's appearance and that he was numbered with the transgressors 
and his disciples came forward with 2 swords and he replied: "It is enough." It certainly 
is....._*ENOUGH*_!!! I'm also reminded that a short time later, when the 'authorities' 
came to arrest our Lord in the garden that I share Peter's zeal and enthusiasm 
(and perhaps even anger) in feeling compelled; wanting to start swinging one of those swords.....
since the 'powers that be' don't seem to be listening......maybe loosing a few ears will get their attention?!!!


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

You may be surprised to find that not everyone who attends church is a "wonderful Christian", nor a member of the church.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

That's really insane. I wonder if there would have been a similar problem if her notice on the church bulletin board had said "Christian lady is looking for like-minded room mate".

.


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## DavisHillFarm (Sep 12, 2008)

FyredUp said:


> Because even if the person does work for the state they still are a member of the church if they attend church there. So again, if your theory is plausible a member of her own church still ratted her out. Fine day for the Christians!!


Which gives us insight of what's to come in the near future.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Just Cliff said:


> If you notice on the complaint there is a phone number 616-451-2980 for the complainant (Fair Housing Center of West Michigan) Why not give em a call and let em know how you really feel.


I just tried. I got a message with no voice mail option. I'm betting they are getting a lot of angry calls.........


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## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

I believe the govt employed idiots are going to wind up with egg on their faces. The fair housing laws exempt owner occupied dwellings from the rules, but who would expect the jack booted thugs to actually know the laws they enforce.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

chickenslayer said:


> I believe the govt employed idiots are going to wind up with egg on their faces. The fair housing laws exempt owner occupied dwellings from the rules, but who would expect the jack booted thugs to actually know the laws they enforce.


A round here they don't need to know the laws .:fussin: They make them up as they go :shrug:


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I hope she gets out of this. And since when does a room count as a dwelling????

"sale or rental of a dwelling"


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Chuck said:


> So I guess she can't discriminate by sex, either...which means a man who wants to share her personal space can't be denied. Nice.
> 
> I had a run-in with our local newspaper over something similar - I was advertising for a rental house we own, and wanted to state "non-smoking environment." The paper said it violated the fair housing act.
> 
> ...


Here there are ads asking for non smokers only, all the time.


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## Lilandra (Oct 21, 2004)

I think it is wrong to advertise for a "christian" room mate, it is discrimination - good people come in all faiths and can be who don't acknowledge a higher power - and the fair housing act keeps rental units and homes for sale from discriminating against everyone no matter what they believe.

That said, this lady's situation is completely different. She is not a rental unit owner, a landlord of a property and she is not looking to become the next donald trump in real estate from this ad. She is a homeowner who has a room to rent. The law has exceptions for her type of "landlord" and she has every right to be exclusive on who she is sharing her intimate living space with. Again, if she was looking for a tenant for an apartment complex with private rooms for individuals - she would be completely in violation... but that's not the case and I hope her legal representatives can get things settled quickly and peacefully for her


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2010)

Lilandra said:


> I think it is wrong to advertise for a "christian" room mate, it is discrimination -


Is it discrimination if a SWF is advertising for a SWM?

Don't say that's different because it's not.


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

Lilandra said:


> I think it is wrong to advertise for a "christian" room mate, it is discrimination - good people come in all faiths and can be who don't acknowledge a higher power - and the fair housing act keeps rental units and homes for sale from discriminating against everyone no matter what they believe.
> 
> That said, this lady's situation is completely different. She is not a rental unit owner, a landlord of a property and she is not looking to become the next donald trump in real estate from this ad. She is a homeowner who has a room to rent. The law has exceptions for her type of "landlord" and she has every right to be exclusive on who she is sharing her intimate living space with. Again, if she was looking for a tenant for an apartment complex with private rooms for individuals - she would be completely in violation... but that's not the case and I hope her legal representatives can get things settled quickly and peacefully for her


The thing is, you have your opinion, and she has hers. She may well have not been looking for "good people", but someone who shared her faith. That is discrimination, but it is legal discrimination and she is well within her rights. Just as she can't force you to rent only to Christians, no one else should be able to force her to rent to non-Christians.


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## Lilandra (Oct 21, 2004)

deaconjim said:


> The thing is, you have your opinion, and she has hers. She may well have not been looking for "good people", but someone who shared her faith. That is discrimination, but it is legal discrimination and she is well within her rights. Just as she can't force you to rent only to Christians, no one else should be able to force her to rent to non-Christians.


bottom line of my post was *Again, if she was looking for a tenant for an apartment complex with private rooms for individuals - she would be completely in violation... but that's not the case and I hope her legal representatives can get things settled quickly and peacefully for her.

*I wished her well in her fight because I believe she didn't do anything wrong and had a right to share her living space with a person of faith such as herself.

and asking for a swf/sgm or any of it is all fine and good for a personal ad and a roommate for a shared living space such as the lady at the church but if you had a rental unit or renting out an entire home to a person you can NOT ask for swf or any specific type of individual. Legally you can only choose your tenant based on their personal references and ability to pay the rent and keep the place in good repair. I believe that is where the interpretation of the law is being applied unfairly to this lady at the church...there ARE exceptions to the law that the lawsuit is not addressing.


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## dahliaqueen (Nov 9, 2005)

Lilandra said:


> That said, this lady's situation is completely different. She is not a rental unit owner, a landlord of a property and she is not looking to become the next donald trump in real estate from this ad. She is a homeowner who has a room to rent.


Exactly!

I can see how this would apply if she had an apartment handled by some government agency, such as public housing, but certainly not as a person with a private home.

I have listed roommate ads for non-smoking females and never had any trouble with publication.

A little too knee-jerk of the powers that be.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

..........Arrogance , And Ignorance , Personified !!! , fordy


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

if its mine or my responsibility its up to me what I do with it period. 

when public funds come into play I can see anti discrimination laws being in effect.

if I or anyone choose to not rent, sell, buy, so on and so forth that's my right what ever the reason as long as I am a private party.

I'm not depriving any one of anything its not my responsibility to care or provide for anyone but myself and children,in the same respect no one is obligated to me. I would not expect anyone to be.


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## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

:flame:

I bet if it said... looking for Muslim female no one would have said a word!
(not that a Muslim female would be 'allowed' to live on her own)

what has happened to America that being a Christian is the 'wrong' religion to be?

I feel so bad for this lady and I hope she fights this!!! it isn't about her as an individual anymore it is a fight for all Christians!

This brings up a question....

is this legal?

"wanted English speaking nanny to care for my children as a live-in, must be a female Christian"

If I am black and add.... 'a black female Christian' is that racist? or if I am Chinese and say 'must be a Chinese female Buddhist speaking Chinese' is that allowed?

I wonder..............


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

westbrook said:


> :flame:
> 
> I bet if it said... looking for Muslim female no one would have said a word!
> (not that a Muslim female would be 'allowed' to live on her own)
> ...


Lots of drama in this post...


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## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

oh... maybe I should have started the post..

I am not a Christian and I am not Caucasian ..... 

no drama in my questions..... I was hoping for a more technical/legal response to answer my question.


I should have said 'it isn't about her as an individual anymore ....it is a fight for all peoples personal property rights and civil liberties" forgive my specificity.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

FyredUp said:


> Lots of drama in this post...


You got that right......particularly the part where you posted the following:

Quote:
Blah, Blah, Blah, fight for all Christians...right. You are so under attack. 
*Seperation of Church and State are imperative to our survival as a nation. *

Unfortunately, you have bought into that "PC" liberal garbage and *SWALLOWED* it, 
hook, line and sinker. Sadly, it was the fact that our nation was founded on the principles that 
we as a people are blessed with survival and prosperity from the Almighty if we acknowledge 
and worship Him. Instead the 'regressives have spread their cancerous sickness and 
hammered into the consciousness of our children over the last few decades, that we must not 
pray in public schools, or have graduation benedictions or even pledge allegiance to this 
once great country because it may offend those few who do not share, or want others to 
share those beliefs in a public forum. Quite to the contrary, if we want this nation to survive, 
it is imperative that we do share with others, what God can do in our lives if we let Him be Lord.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Fyredup-where are you getting your ideas of "Separation of Church & State"? What do you believe that means?


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Anyone can file a complaint over anything ... doesn't mean it will be upheld. 

I suggest everyone wait to see the outcome before they get their undergarments in a wad!


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

From the original article:



> Christians shouldn't live in fear of being punished by the government for being Christians


Seems to me that too many people have too much time to spend taking their belief system far too seriously, ending up causing nothing but grief on either side of any given issue. It's a repetition of the same sort of nonsense which gave birth to the Crusades and the Spanish inquisition.



Having anyone dictate to you who you can or cannot have as a room mate or as anything else is retarded enough. Having religious believers of *any* religion or creed come in afterwards and raise the "help we're under attack" alarms only multiplies the stupidity, just like those lunatics do in the middle east who chop off a beggar's hand if he's caught stealing a piece of fruit. It just drags down the national IQ.

Just live and let live, don't cause others any harm, don't let other fools step all over you either. Respect yourself and stay BASIC - stay true to the roots of what life is all about.

Life is too ----ed short to give a rat's ash about what someone else believes. Love who you love, stay away from those who give you a headache, live and let live.

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

EDDIE BUCK said:


> What really gets me is she posted it on her churches bulletin board and some loon trys to make something out of it.I don't guess the devil has any boundaries.But theres a day coming..................


Maybe the person filing the complaint agrees with that Jesus character. I remember reading something about him not ONLY being around people who agreed with him.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

copperkid3 said:


> You got that right......particularly the part where you posted the following:
> 
> Quote:
> Blah, Blah, Blah, fight for all Christians...right. You are so under attack.
> ...


Saddly what YOU and your Brethren have forgotten is that the Pilgrims left England to ESCAPE religious persecution. Yet you believe that YOUR God is the only one that is right. Do you see the irony in that?

I couldn't possibly care less if a kid wants to pray before a test or a sporting event, personally, on their own. Organized religious presentations in schools or anywhere else, unless they are all inclusive of any religion represented amongst the student body are inappropriate.

It is imperative that if someone tells you to leave them alone with your beliefs that you turn around and walk away. You have no right to force feed your beliefs to anyone, ever.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

Tricky Grama said:


> Fyredup-where are you getting your ideas of "Separation of Church & State"? What do you believe that means?


Government should stay out of the business of religion and religion should stay out of the business of government. There is no official government sanctioned religion.

The problem with religion being involved in public ceremonies is that unless you include all religions that may be represented in the audience you invariably insult or offend someone. How would you feel if you went to a graduation and the religious portion was done as a Wiccan ceremony and no one else was allowed to speak on their religious beliefs?


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## sheepish (Dec 9, 2006)

FyredUp said:


> Saddly what YOU and your Brethren have forgotten is that the Pilgrims left England to ESCAPE religious persecution. Yet you believe that YOUR God is the only one that is right.


Sadly what you and most other Americans fail to realize is that the Pilgrims left England to set up their own form of religious persecution, a form far more restrictive and discriminatory than that practiced in England at the time. Unfortunately religious persecution seems to be the right of any group (of any religion) that has sufficient numbers.


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## seagullplayer (Nov 6, 2008)

georger said:


> From the original article:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, I'll just keep my two cents.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Hello, Westbrook; 
Long time no see.
Ox


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

FyredUp said:


> Government should stay out of the business of religion and religion should stay out of the business of government. There is no official government sanctioned religion.
> 
> The problem with religion being involved in public ceremonies is that unless you include all religions that may be represented in the audience you invariably insult or offend someone. How would you feel if you went to a graduation and the religious portion was done as a Wiccan ceremony and no one else was allowed to speak on their religious beliefs?


Yup. They SHOULD stay out. There is NO provision making it illegal to practice your religion...like in a public place. 
If there was a "religious portion" to a graduation ceremony, which I don't think is allowed, IIRC, 'witch' ever one was chosen would be ok w/me. Its that thery're not allowed. This is wrong too.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

See here is my thing, religion can not be part of government, agreed. However government is often part of religion.
Marriage for example. Why does the gov have a hand in it? Why do churches get tax breaks? Where is the separation there?

Funny how folks yell about prayer in school or some such but quickly forget that if that is what separation is, then the gov needs to quit giving breaks to churches and they need to stay out of marriage, no more licenses or JP weddings and all that rot.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

FyredUp said:


> Saddly what YOU and your Brethren have forgotten is that the Pilgrims left England to ESCAPE religious persecution. Yet you believe that YOUR God is the only one that is right. Do you see the irony in that?
> 
> I couldn't possibly care less if a kid wants to pray before a test or a sporting event, personally, on their own. Organized religious presentations in schools or anywhere else, unless they are all inclusive of any religion represented amongst the student body are inappropriate.
> 
> It is imperative that if someone tells you to leave them alone with your beliefs that you turn around and walk away. You have no right to force feed your beliefs to anyone, ever.


*******************************************************
went off on a wild tangent about Pilgrims that had absolutely *NOTHING* to do with the topic at hand. 
Nice sidestep though.....if we hadn't refocused it back to my original question, you and 
others responding to the "new" topic, might have been given a free pass......sorry, 
not going to happen. Now let's try it again......where in the constitution of the United States 
of America, does it state that some showing of 'faith' cannot be present at *ANY* 
public gathering; whether gooberment based or not? Note*(Those weren't the 'exact' 
words used before, but for the sake of explicit clarity, I've used these; should you 
choose to again, dodge the question, we can fine-tune it even further! But I don't 
think that will be necessary; either it's in the constitution or it's not.....your call now!) 


{Pssst.....I'll give you a hint on where to start looking......try the _*BEGINNING*_ - 
just like in Genesis from the bible, the First Amendment is found at the beginning of what
it takes to start (and keep) a new government living a long and good life; stray from it and 
you're going to have problems. Bring in 'false doctrine' of separation of church and state, 
and it's a recipe for disaster! Nobody has suggested that we bring in state mandated religion, 
which is what caused the pilgrims to leave jolly ole England, but on the same token, there is 
_*NOTHING*_ that says that gooberment must prohibit those elected officials from prohibiting 
the people from exercising their 'rights' to freedom _*OF*_ religion; not *FROM* religion.}


P.S. I know that I could have saved *EVERYONE* the time/trouble of having to look it up, 
by providing the 'necessary' answer(s) here and now, but the very best teachers that I've had, 
always made a point to have US look up the answer(s); said that it would stick with us longer 
(and better) if we took the extra effort and found it on our own. I tend to agree.....


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

copperkid3 said:


> *******************************************************
> went off on a wild tangent about Pilgrims that had absolutely *NOTHING* to do with the topic at hand.
> Nice sidestep though.....if we hadn't refocused it back to my original question, you and
> others responding to the "new" topic, might have been given a free pass......sorry,
> ...












(kudos to TF for the icon)


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

sheepish said:


> Sadly what you and most other Americans fail to realize is that the Pilgrims left England to set up their own form of religious persecution, a form far more restrictive and discriminatory than that practiced in England at the time. Unfortunately religious persecution seems to be the right of any group (of any religion) that has sufficient numbers.



Um, golly, I thought what I said clearly agrees with what you said.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

MJsLady said:


> See here is my thing, religion can not be part of government, agreed. However government is often part of religion.
> Marriage for example. Why does the gov have a hand in it? Why do churches get tax breaks? Where is the separation there?
> 
> Funny how folks yell about prayer in school or some such but quickly forget that if that is what separation is, then the gov needs to quit giving breaks to churches and they need to stay out of marriage, no more licenses or JP weddings and all that rot.


And for those of us who wish to be married, but want religion to play no part in it? 

What would our options be?


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

copperkid3 said:


> *******************************************************
> went off on a wild tangent about Pilgrims that had absolutely *NOTHING* to do with the topic at hand.
> Nice sidestep though.....if we hadn't refocused it back to my original question, you and
> others responding to the "new" topic, might have been given a free pass......sorry,
> ...


â Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. "

Golly, Gosh and perhaps even Geewilikers guess what else it doesn't say... 

It doesn't say we are a Christian Nation. It doesn't say Christianity is the only religion, let alone the right one. In fact it is quite clear in its ambiguity. Free exercise thereof...once again doesn't mention Christianity. So perhaps the persecutors are the Christians who seem to believe they are the only one's who are right about God and religion.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

FyredUp said:


> &#8220; Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, *or prohibiting the free exercise thereof*; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. "
> 
> Golly, Gosh and perhaps even Geewilikers guess what else it doesn't say...
> 
> It doesn't say we are a Christian Nation. It doesn't say Christianity is the only religion, let alone the right one. In fact it is quite clear in its ambiguity. Free exercise thereof...once again doesn't mention Christianity. So perhaps the persecutors are the Christians who seem to believe they are the only one's who are right about God and religion.


********************************************************
what it had to say and instead, went off on some tangent (like Christian Nation......
whatever that means) and harped on it instead. No one has said ANYTHING about having 
only Christianity as the 'state' religion.....except those who oppose it in any way, shape or form. 
(BTW: Christianity is the ONLY 'religion' that is NOT man-made, but GOD made; 
involving a personal relationship with the Creator of the Universe, in which He recognized 
that nothing that we could do could bridge the gulf that separates a wholly and Holy GOD 
from an utterly sinful and lost mankind......He then "provided" the ONLY means to renew 
that fellowship with Himself. He supplied the lamb of salvation; His Son to be sacrificed in our stead....
even though we deserved the death penalty......for the soul that sins shall surely die. 
Everything and anything else is man either reaching out to God on their own terms or doing 
whatever they 'feel' is best for them; whether God is involved or not.) 

Let me direct you to the 2nd half of the 1st amendment which I've hi-lighted above.......
exactly what does that mean to *YOU* in regards to the O.P. and the woman who was 
seeking a Christian roommate, to live in her own house and posted on a private church
bulletin board in her own house of worship??? Does the gooberment have the right to decide 
who she has as her roommate or how she is to practice her relationship with her Lord, by having 
non-believers come and live within her house just because the 'law' says that she can't 
deny them on the basis of her 'religion' or theirs???


Another BTW: Thanks Tricky, for the kudos.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

copperkid3 said:


> ********************************************************
> what it had to say and instead, went off on some tangent (like Christian Nation......
> whatever that means) and harped on it instead. No one has said ANYTHING about having
> only Christianity as the 'state' religion.....except those who oppose it in any way, shape or form.
> ...



You lost any credibility with me when you decided to post that Christianity is the only God made religion. You in one post negated the beliefs of HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of people all over the planet.


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

FyredUp said:


> You lost any credibility with me when you decided to post that Christianity is the only God made religion. You in one post negated the beliefs of HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of people all over the planet.


How does that make him wrong?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> And for those of us who wish to be married, but want religion to play no part in it?
> 
> What would our options be?


A Justice of the Peace

There's no "religious" requirement for marriage at all


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

deaconjim said:


> How does that make him wrong?


Because his attitude is EXACTLY the same of other religions, Muslims as an example, who believe that their choice in religion is the only right way to worship.

More wars have been fought, and more people have been killed, in the name of God, including the Christian God, than for any other reason throughout history.

Funny how something supposedly love based led to the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Salem witch burnings. None of those things represent love to me.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Bearfootfarm said:


> A Justice of the Peace
> 
> There's no "religious" requirement for marriage at all


I'll consider my point missed.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Tiempo said:


> I'll consider my point missed.


I got it-one post said JPs included? 
Maybe we need something like other countries, go get your 'legal papers' then go get your 'marriage' (if you are a man & a woman like the LAW says) or go get your 'civil union' if you're not.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

My point was, why is government involved in something set up originally as a religious thing? The Bible mentions marriage first, therefore it is a God related event. Most cultures have religious events for marriage. That idea came before pay a tax and pass a blood test.

We have marriage with no gov or religious involvement already, it is called common law. Live together 6 months, you are married. 

Christianity can not be the only religion, because it is NOT a religion. It is a Faith. Religion is man made to make Faith easier to follow.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2010)

FyredUp said:


> Because his attitude is EXACTLY the same of other religions, Muslims as an example, who believe that their choice in religion is the only right way to worship.
> 
> More wars have been fought, and more people have been killed, in the name of God, including the Christian God, than for any other reason throughout history.
> 
> Funny how something supposedly love based led to the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Salem witch burnings. None of those things represent love to me.


Look at all the people Muslims are killing in the name of their god. 

The "Christian God", as you put it, did not make people do the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, and the Salem witch burnings. That was people's own stupidity. Those things happen when people start twisting Scriptures to suit their own purpose.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

ladycat said:


> Look at all the people Muslims are killing in the name of their god.
> 
> The "Christian God", as you put it, did not make people do the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, and the Salem witch burnings. That was people's own stupidity. Those things happen when people start twisting Scriptures to suit their own purpose.


Amen.
Well said


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

FyredUp said:


> You lost any credibility with me when you decided to post that Christianity is the only God made religion. You in one post negated the beliefs of HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of people all over the planet.


*****************************************************
is that you have been presented with the 'gospel'; i.e. the *GOOD NEWS* and now 
have a choice in what to do with that information. You can 'reject' it straight out-of-hand 
and discount it with the excuse, that it 'negated the beliefs of HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of people 
all over the planet', or you can respond to the greatest gift this world has ever been offered, 
by accepting it. The 'choice' is still the same, for either you or the hundreds of millions all over 
the planet. It's an individual thing; each person has the opportunity to chose; either for or against. 
It's not my job to 'make you' chose life at the edge of a sword or gun......mine is but as the messenger. 
That is but one of the differences between those who would force you with violence to convert or 
those who present the message and show you the way of salvation.....the "conversion" must come from within; 
i.e. with a changed heart, and a new birth. 

I firmly believe that the _*WAY*_ of salvation can be summed up in the following verses from Hebrews:

2:14 - Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook 
of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
2:15-	and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
2:16 - For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
2:17 - Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful 
and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
2:18 - For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

With a reminder from this verse in Matthew....

Matthew 7:14 - "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. 

And finally, the summation from 2 Corinthians.....

4:3 -	And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

4:4 -	in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that 
they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

In conclusion, we have the following analogy..... would you reject a priceless 'gift' that already 
had ALL the taxes paid on it, personally delivered to your home or place of work, without any 
hidden delivery fees or would you accept it without reservation and thank the giver for HIS generosity on your behalf?


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

ladycat said:


> Look at all the people Muslims are killing in the name of their god.
> 
> The "Christian God", as you put it, did not make people do the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, and the Salem witch burnings. That was people's own stupidity. Those things happen when people start twisting Scriptures to suit their own purpose.



This is quite possibly the most brain washed statement I have ever read in my entire life.

You state that the Muslims are killing people in the name of their God and then refute that the Christians killed people in the name of their God during the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials. Seriously, if you can't see the flaw with your own logic please do not waste my time responding to my posts.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

MJsLady said:


> Amen.
> Well said



What was well said about it?

Christians absolutely killed in the name of their God during the Crusades, during the Spanish Inquisition, and even more shamefully in my own country during the Salem Witch trials and witch burinings. 

Pray tell how do you explain these killings by Chrsitians against others not of their faith? The Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition were both called Holy Wars...the Salem Witch burnings were perpetrated by scared, superstitious Chrsitians.

Please. tell me how these actions were perpetrated by Christians and not in the name of their God.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2010)

FyredUp said:


> This is quite possibly the most brain washed statement I have ever read in my entire life.
> 
> You state that the Muslims are killing people in the name of their God and then refute that the Christians killed people in the name of their God during the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials. Seriously, if you can't see the flaw with your own logic please do not waste my time responding to my posts.


People absolutely DID kill in the name God during the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials. But God didn't make them do it.

I could kill in the name of FyredUp. I could tell the police I did it because of something you posted. Does that mean the police would come after you? Would you be guilty?

We've all seen the news stories of women who killed their children "because God told them to". Does that mean God really told them to? Of course not! They did it because in their twisted logic, they decided it was the thing to do "in the name of God". 

People killed during the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials because of their own twisted logic.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

copperkid3 said:


> *****************************************************
> is that you have been presented with the 'gospel'; i.e. the *GOOD NEWS* and now
> have a choice in what to do with that information. You can 'reject' it straight out-of-hand
> and discount it with the excuse, that it 'negated the beliefs of HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of people
> ...


Dude, seriously, you sound like you would be a bundle of laughs at a social gathering.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

ladycat said:


> People absolutely DID kill in the name God during the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials. But God didn't make them do it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The facts are truly simple. If you believe what you want to believe you can make any event defensible, or deniable, based soley on FAITH.

Yet remember this, I have not once told you not to believe what you believe. I have not once tried to change your mind about what you believe. I have not once tried to convert you to whatever it is you believe I believe, since I never have said what my beliefs are. You and others have tried to convert me, attacked me, preached at me, and ridiculed me. Which is exactly why if my saying "No thank you" to someone talking religion to me doesn't work I will either turn around and walk away, or get as rude with them as they are being with me. You simply have no right to force your beliefs on anyone.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

FyredUp said:


> Dude, seriously, you sound like you would be a bundle of laughs at a social gathering.


**************************************
isn't such a laughing matter for those who have no hope. On the other hand, those of us, who have
a 'living hope' will be forever, in the presence of perfect joy and peace; who will wipe away all tears and sorrow. 

That banquet feast that I'll be attending, will last for quite some spell and no one will be wanting to leave; 
nor will they have to. No doubt, we'll be having a bundle of laughs.......pray you were there, to share in them.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

copperkid3 said:


> **************************************
> isn't such a laughing matter for those who have no hope. On the other hand, those of us, who have
> a 'living hope' will be forever, in the presence of perfect joy and peace; who will wipe away all tears and sorrow.
> 
> ...


Once again you make wrong assumptions. You assume because I don't believe the same as you do I have no hope. You couldn't possibly be more wrong. Once again the error of YOUR ways is you assume your interpretation of the Bible and your ideas of what God and Jesus are the only ones, let alone the correct ones. 

What you fail to understand about what I have posted is, frankly I don't care what you believe, enjoy your beliefs if they sustain you, the issue arises when you attempt to tell anyone who doesn't believe as you that they are wrong. Once you have been told to back off with your preaching, proper social etequitte says stop, walk away, and look for someone else who wants to listen to what you have to say. The difference between you and me is I don't feel the need to justify my beliefs by convincing everyone else to believe the same as me. Faith and beliefs are a personal decision made by each individual.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

FyredUp said:


> The facts are truly simple. If you believe what you want to believe you can make any event defensible, or deniable, based soley on FAITH.
> 
> Yet remember this, I have not once told you not to believe what you believe. I have not once tried to change your mind about what you believe. I have not once tried to convert you to whatever it is you believe I believe, since I never have said what my beliefs are. You and others have tried to convert me, attacked me, preached at me, and ridiculed me. Which is exactly why if my saying "No thank you" to someone talking religion to me doesn't work I will either turn around and walk away, or get as rude with them as they are being with me. You simply have no right to force your beliefs on anyone.


What are your beliefs?


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

JeffreyD said:


> What are your beliefs?


Really what does it matter what my beliefs are? I haven't tried to convert anyone, tell anyone what they believe is wrong, tell anyone they can't believe as they wish.

Why do you care what I believe?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

FyredUp said:


> Really what does it matter what my beliefs are? I haven't tried to convert anyone, tell anyone what they believe is wrong, tell anyone they can't believe as they wish.
> 
> Why do you care what I believe?


Cause you keep bring it up! If you didn't mention it, i wouldn't have asked!
So, i became curious as to what they are. And i know you DO have beliefs.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

FyredUp said:


> Once again you make wrong assumptions. You assume because I don't believe the same as you do I have no hope. You couldn't possibly be more wrong. Once again the error of YOUR ways is you assume your interpretation of the Bible and your ideas of what God and Jesus are the only ones, let alone the correct ones.
> 
> What you fail to understand about what I have posted is, frankly I don't care what you believe, enjoy your beliefs if they sustain you, the issue arises when you attempt to tell anyone who doesn't believe as you that they are wrong. Once you have been told to back off with your preaching, proper social etequitte says stop, walk away, and look for someone else who wants to listen to what you have to say. The difference between you and me is I don't feel the need to justify my beliefs by convincing everyone else to believe the same as me. Faith and beliefs are a personal decision made by each individual.


******************************************************
made any assumptions......I'm _*NOT*_ your judge, nor jury.......just the messenger. 
You state that because I assume that you, don't believe as I, that you have no hope. 
Pray tell me, where I stated this "exactly".......here, I'll save us both some time......I stated:
"Eternity and where one plans on spending it isn't a laughing matter for those who have no hope." 
Are you now telling me that you are the "one" that I was referencing??? 
Have you put yourself into that category willingly? If not, than what is your hope of escape? 

It's pretty hard to make an 'assumption' out of the following verse taken from John 14: 6 in the bible. 

*John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth,
and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."*

Jesus *HIMSELF* stated that He, was the (*ONLY*) way to the Father; was *HE* 
then just a liar.......or worse......a madmen, to make such a claim if it wasn't true? 
Pity us if it was the latter; since a few 'chosen' have decided to put our faith into those words. 
Pity all others who have not, nor do not take *HIM* at his word if what HE spoke of, was true. 
Since HE had the power over the grave and was not only able to resurrect those who had 
already died, but *HE* Himself conquered death and rose again on the 3rd day!!! 
His tomb is empty; no body resides there. He didn't state that he was one way out of many, 
or just one truth out of many, or just a life (out of many) that is leading to the the giver of 
all life...... pretty much ALL EXCLUSIVE when you finalize those statements with 
the conclusion of: _*NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH ME!!! 
*_
The question then remains, who was Jesus the Christ and what are you going to do about his 'claims'??? 

You 'claim' that I've failed to understand what you have posted, and then state that you 
don't care what I believe. Ahhhhh..... therein is the difference between us; I do care 
what you believe. And I take no issue in your 'assumption' that you believe that there is 
a problem when I 'preach' about the wrong path -vs- the straight and narrow one. Once again, 
if you do have a problem, then take it up with the _*ONE*_ who sent me to proclaim the message. 
I'm not trying to 'justify' my beliefs in convincing you to believe the same as I do.....but I have been 
given my 'orders' from my commander-in-chief, to proclaim the message to all; no doubt so 
that they are without excuse. Would you have me disobey those 'orders'??? 
I think not.....(HE outranks you!) nor would I deny their truth by silence. 
What exactly do you believe, since you haven't felt free to share and 
it would be 'assuming' too much for us to try guessing at this point?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

FyredUp said:


> â Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. "
> 
> Golly, Gosh and perhaps even Geewilikers guess what else it doesn't say...
> 
> It doesn't say we are a Christian Nation. It doesn't say Christianity is the only religion, let alone the right one. In fact it is quite clear in its ambiguity. Free exercise thereof...once again doesn't mention Christianity. So perhaps the persecutors are the Christians who seem to believe they are the only one's who are right about God and religion.


Sorry, I haven't seen anyone in this thread stating that Christianity is the only religion. I believe most of the Christians here believe that Americans should have the freedom of whatever religion they decide to follow.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

FyredUp said:


> This is quite possibly the most brain washed statement I have ever read in my entire life.
> 
> You state that the *Muslims are killing people* in the name of their God and then refute that the *Christians killed people *in the name of their God during the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials. Seriously, if you can't see the flaw with your own logic please do not waste my time responding to my posts.


Although Christian's did kill people in the name of their God, they no longer are doing that. Islam is as old, if not older, will have to research that, as Christianity, yet they are STILL killing people in the name of their God. Big difference and has absolutely nothing to do with the OP. Looks like you're doing what I've read so many on the right accuse the left of doing, if you can't answer the questions, you change the subject.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

yes Christians killed people, however God did not ordain or command it as allah does his followers. Mohammad calls Christ a great prophet, so Christianity is older than islam


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

God did command his people to kill all the inhabitants of the promised land, starting with Jericho.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Danaus29 said:


> God did command his people to kill all the inhabitants of the promised land, starting with Jericho.


At that time there was no Christianity because Christ had not been born yet. I find it funny that any time a topic like this comes up people want to refer to the Old Testament, which did not have Christians.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I am aware of that. Just trying to set the record straight about God commanding his followers to kill non-believers. Christ never commanded his followers to kill anyone. What most people don't understand is that with Christ is the intercessor. He is the go between and the one with whom the original Christians communicated. The ironic part is that the people who are now Muslims are the decendants of those people who God ordered his followers to kill.

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with the original topic. Has anyone heard anything in the way of an update?


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

I can find no update as of now.


> Has anyone heard anything in the way of an update?
> Reply With Quote


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

copperkid3 said:


> ******************************************************
> made any assumptions......I'm _*NOT*_ your judge, nor jury.......just the messenger.
> You state that because I assume that you, don't believe as I, that you have no hope.
> Pray tell me, where I stated this "exactly".......here, I'll save us both some time......I stated:
> ...


The issue is once I have said "NO THANK YOU" to your message you have no more right to continue to attempt to spread your message to me.

Your orders are meaningless to me. I don"t wish to hear YOUR version of the message. Thatis the core problem with you and your fellow so called Chrsitians who believe as you do. You feel you have the right to intrude on my personal space and attempt to convert me to your beliefs.

By the way, you love to dance around saying something, making ascertations, making judgements, and then when you get called on it you dance back and play semantical games. Sorry, I am not some 15 year old kid who you can play mind games with and brain wash into your cult. If you wish to continue this conversation with me how about you man up and say EXACTLY what you have to say instead of pretending to be this amazing clerical wordsmith. Because frankly Dude you aren't fooling anyone.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

FyredUp said:


> The issue is once I have said "NO THANK YOU" to your message you have no more right to continue to attempt to spread your message to me.
> 
> Your orders are meaningless to me. I don"t wish to hear YOUR version of the message. Thatis the core problem with you and your fellow so called Chrsitians who believe as you do. You feel you have the right to intrude on my personal space and attempt to convert me to your beliefs.
> 
> By the way, you love to dance around saying something, making ascertations, making judgements, and then when you get called on it you dance back and play semantical games. Sorry, I am not some 15 year old kid who you can play mind games with and brain wash into your cult. If you wish to continue this conversation with me how about you man up and say EXACTLY what you have to say instead of pretending to be this amazing clerical wordsmith. Because frankly Dude you aren't fooling anyone.


Thread drift above, response below!

Kinda angry aren't we now! You don't have to read this thread. You can also put someone on ignore too.
We also have the right to say what we want and think. You have the right to walk away and not listen. That's one of the great things about America!(at least so far)
What cult are you talking about, dude?


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

JeffreyD said:


> Cause you keep bring it up! If you didn't mention it, i wouldn't have asked!
> So, i became curious as to what they are. And i know you DO have beliefs.


Well, I am sure I am opening myself up to ridicule from your superior Christians but here goes.

I was raised a Chrsitian Scientistand remained with that church until I reached 19 or so. Then I was not affiliated with any religion until I was around 22. I met my future first wife and I started attending her Baptist church so we could get married there. I never joined the church and my attendance ended after we were married. Later on in the marriage when we decided the kids needed some religious exposure we joined a Methodist church and attended there until the pastor, that I really liked and found very inspirational, moved on and a new pastor took her place. The new pastor simply never was able to replicate the same intensity that the previous one did so I drifted away from that church too.

I have spent many years searching, reading about different religions and spiritual beliefs. I believe their is a power in the universe. I believe there are spirits out there because they have spoken to me. My Dad as an example, almost 2 years after he died he spoke to me to reassure me that he was okay. I have seen and heard "ghosts," both humans and dogs. I am not alone in seeing and hearing these "Ghosts" in my home.

I will admit that the teaching of the churches I attended influence my thoughts and actions at times. Do unto others, do not kill, do not steal, do not covet thy neighbors wife...But the whole faith issue has never been a strong suit with me. I believe in the things I have seen or heard. I believe that most people given the chance will choose the side of good over evil whether they have God in their lives or not.

I tend to follow a mixture of what i learned from the churches I attended and Wicca at this point in my life. I am a strong believer in the Wiccan belief that "As ye harm none, do as ye will." 

Okay, go ahead...shred my beliefs. That's fine because what you all simply don't understand is that spiritual beliefs, religion or faith in God are all very intensely personal and truly no one else's business or right to judge.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

JeffreyD said:


> Thread drift above, response below!
> 
> Kinda angry aren't we now! You don't have to read this thread. You can also put someone on ignore too.
> We also have the right to say what we want and think. You have the right to walk away and not listen. That's one of the great things about America!(at least so far)
> What cult are you talking about, dude?


No anger at all. Remember I have repeatedly said I don't care what you believe, I am not trying to convert you to anything.

I have been told I am wrong and people have tried to show me why I need to convert to their beliefs.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

FyredUp said:


> Well, I am sure I am opening myself up to ridicule from your superior Christians but here goes.
> 
> I was raised a Chrsitian Scientistand remained with that church until I reached 19 or so. Then I was not affiliated with any religion until I was around 22. I met my future first wife and I started attending her Baptist church so we could get married there. I never joined the church and my attendance ended after we were married. Later on in the marriage when we decided the kids needed some religious exposure we joined a Methodist church and attended there until the pastor, that I really liked and found very inspirational, moved on and a new pastor took her place. The new pastor simply never was able to replicate the same intensity that the previous one did so I drifted away from that church too.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing. Personal beliefs are just that. I was curious because you mentioned beliefs in a earlier post.

Why should I say anything against your beliefs. It's not my place. Each and everyone has their own beliefs. I don't judge anybody based on their beliefs because I don't want any one to judge me for mine. I judge by actions. Sure there will always be those that will, I won't! No one should be chastised for their beliefs. Live and let live.


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## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

MJsLady said:


> I can find no update as of now.


I did see a snippet on FOX news yesterday but we already read what was being reported. There were two legal types debating and brought up the law isn't right but it was the law and felt she would loose in a court of law.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

JeffreyD said:


> Thank you for sharing. Personal beliefs are just that. I was curious because you mentioned beliefs in a earlier post.
> 
> Why should I say anything against your beliefs. It's not my place. Each and everyone has their own beliefs. I don't judge anybody based on their beliefs because I don't want any one to judge me for mine. I judge by actions. Sure there will always be those that will, I won't! No one should be chastised for their beliefs. Live and let live.


Thank you. I won't attack your beliefs either.

The world would be a much better place if more people thought as you do.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

FyredUp said:


> Thank you. I won't attack your beliefs either.
> 
> The world would be a much better place if more people thought as you do.


Thanks, but I don't know if it would be better. Read some of my posts then decide.

:shocked:


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

FyredUp said:


> The issue is once I have said "NO THANK YOU" to your message you have no more right to continue to attempt to spread your message to me.
> 
> Your orders are meaningless to me. I don"t wish to hear YOUR version of the message. Thatis the core problem with you and your fellow so called Chrsitians who believe as you do. You feel you have the right to intrude on my personal space and attempt to convert me to your beliefs.
> 
> By the way, you love to dance around saying something, making ascertations, making judgements, and then when you get called on it you dance back and play semantical games. Sorry, I am not some 15 year old kid who you can play mind games with and brain wash into your cult. If you wish to continue this conversation with me how about you man up and say EXACTLY what you have to say instead of pretending to be this amazing clerical wordsmith. Because frankly Dude you aren't fooling anyone.


****************************************************
to be your father. Wonder if you talk the same way to your own? No one is playing any 
word games with you......however it is quite evident that you have done so, by way of 
ignoring specific questions or 'dancing' around them. Nice try at calling the kettle black 
when you yourself are the one who has been name-calling and making judgmental 
statements about others. You state that you're *NOT* some 15 yr old kid, but so far, 
your very actions seem to have demonstrated otherwise. 

Isn't it rather ironic (and somewhat hypocritical) to state that my orders from my God, 
are meaningless to you, but then insist that your 'orders' to me; i.e. to stop preaching to you, 
have a greater priority? A rather inflated image of yourself, wouldn't you say? And for the record,
exactly 'where' am I intruding on your space when you 'assume' (there's that word again) 
that I'm trying to convert you to my beliefs.......since you live in Wisconsin and I, in a 
neighboring state, it can hardly be construed or even remotely possible, that I'm "in your space". 

This is a public forum that we share together.

We're communicating over the internet with electronic signals that are transmitted onto a screen......
hardly in your face type of stuff that you are trying to make it out to be. 

As I've already stated previously, I'm but a messenger. If you don't like the 'good news' 
then close your eyes, put your hands over your ears and go running through the streets of your town, 
shouting: Lalalallalalalalallalalalallala, I'm not listening to you anymore!" For the record, I've already
stated *EXACTLY* everything that needed to be said from the beginning of our conversations......
Having asked you legitimate questions that were either ridiculed or ignored. 

If the Spirit is convicting you, then that is not of my doing, but HE who is doing HIS work, through HIS word. 

_*Isaiah 55:11 - So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, 
Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.*_


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## Prickle (May 9, 2009)

FyredUp said:


> the Salem Witch burnings were perpetrated by scared, superstitious Chrsitians.


This has been mentioned several times now, so just for accuracy's sake ...they weren't burned, they were hanged. 

Carry on....


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

FyredUp said:


> This is quite possibly the most brain washed statement I have ever read in my entire life.
> 
> You state that the Muslims are killing people in the name of their God and then refute that the Christians killed people in the name of their God during the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials. Seriously, if you can't see the flaw with your own logic please do not waste my time responding to my posts.


HATE to respond since this thread has turned into a Christainbashingthread, Who'da thunk it???

BUT-the crusades were in response to MUSLIMS attacking Christian nations & taking over their land. I'm not saying it was right, just sayin'. Plus, the bible DID NOT TELL THEM TO DO IT!!!


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