# Best guard for us?



## DatacomGuy (Jan 19, 2016)

In process of building, will close this summer. Trying to get some plans together.

Dozen or so chickens, half a dozen goats, possibly some pigs and/or sheep as well. 4.5 acres as well as our home.

We currently have three family dogs that have never been around livestock.

Right now, the only risks we KNOW of are coyote.. i'm sure there are ton more, but it's all we know of for now.

What would you recommend for us? I'm assuming dog will be best.. What kind, and would the dog be integrated with the family or kept outside and away from being a pet?

If dog, what breeds should we look at? I'm familiar with what is common for livestock, but curious about our small farm and small list of livestock. Australian shepherd? German shepherd? 

Thanks in advance!


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

At this point I would say that your potential livestock is at more risk from your dogs that have never seen livestock, than from coyotes in the area that already are using food sources that don't include your livestock. Australian shepherds are supposedly herding dogs, few ever used for that, most are bred for color, some are downright nuts. German shepherds are developed from dogs that were very territorial and boundary oriented. If a sheep was somewhere it wasn't supposed to be, it got attacked, and if a predator was somewhere it wasn't supposed to be it got attacked. That was a long time ago, most now are either bred for attacking people, or having a popular sloping show ring stance that makes it look like it's privates were nailed to the floor. Some are a combination of the two breeding styles. Not what most would consider a guarding dog. The big white breeds (anatolian, pyr) are typically what is used, but some are not suited for your small acreage.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

DatacomGuy, congratulations on getting onto a place you can create yourself. That is always an exciting time; so enjoy the process.

I personally would be better able to answer your questions if I knew a little more. Is that 4.5 acres in addition to your home area? What fencing will you have? What breed(s) are your other three "family" dogs? 

It is real nice to make plans as you decide what structures to put up; and your looking ahead as to what type of "guard" dog to include is wise. However, many good family guard dogs can handle the small acreage you have mentioned. (I only have 6 acres and I've had mixed breeds as well as pure bloods, one being a shepherd with a high prey drive. Every single dog I've had here took good care of my 6 acres keeping all predators away; and I raise dairy goats and assorted fowl. I've heard coyotes howl here yet have not seen them. I do know there are wolves, bears, foxes and other critters that would enjoy a good "goat" meal. My dogs...never more than two large ones at a time...intimidated everything around here, including feral dogs; so there is rarely an incident anymore. The last time was when my dogs treed a groundhog.) Thus, it may well be you already have the dog(s) you will need when you get your other animals. They might simply need some training; and, if you've already established yourself as their boss, that should not pose too much of a problem.

Hope this helps some.


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## DatacomGuy (Jan 19, 2016)

motdaugrnds said:


> DatacomGuy, congratulations on getting onto a place you can create yourself. That is always an exciting time; so enjoy the process.
> 
> I personally would be better able to answer your questions if I knew a little more. Is that 4.5 acres in addition to your home area? What fencing will you have? What breed(s) are your other three "family" dogs?
> 
> ...


Thank you! Good stuff. My wife's dogs are a 8 year old dachshund mix, a 2 year old Shih Tzu.. And I have a 6 month old Rhodesian Ridgeback mix (either lab or pit) that is a gigantic baby. Clearly the dachshund and shih tzu are not going to do anything for us - however the Ridgeback most definitely could if we worked with him. I also don't see any risks with the dachshund and shih tzu and the animals. Just don't know with the Ridgeback as we haven't been around anything.

I thought i read that the LGD should be kept away from children and the family pets, but I could be confusing things - but thats why I post now. We're down to get more dogs now that we will have room for them all - but it's important to me that the livestock stay safe as well as the family. 

As far as fencing - we are planning on a perimeter fence that will go around the entire property, which will be wooden post and woven wire. Then we will do separate fenced areas for each livestock, as well as separate fenced areas for raised gardens, fruit trees, etc. 

The home will be dead center of the property, unfortunately. Roughly 500 or so feet back.. Property is narrow and long.. 225 feet wide at the road, 1370ft deep on its longest side.. Its a trapezoid shape. I say unfortunately as I'm not yet sure what we will or can do with the property in front of the home. It's heavily wooded, and its also sloped - 800ft at the front, and slopes slightly front to back.

I'll be starting a separate thread on property layout recommendations.. but will take ANY guidance I can get. We're suburban city folk moving out of the city and on our way to learning and teaching our kids about self-sustainability.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

I think your biggest task for right now will be your ridgeback. Speaking as someone who had kind of rambunctious labs with high prey drive in a mixed area with big farms, hobby farms, subdivision/townships, you need to focus on your ridgeback since he/she is 6 months, because a lot of times it's the dogs and cats causing the problems. It's a big task to teach a high prey drive dog, especially with chickens, but he'll learn. And he really needs to if you plan on another dog that is going to specialize in guarding the livestock. They could have issues with each other, or your next dog will learn from the ridgeback that eating chickens is tasty and hilarious.

The upside to that is your ridgeback will be too big for most coyotes' britches. They prefer easy meals. Walk the perimeter with your ridgeback every day to keep that boundary locked in his memory, plus he'll scent mark it all the time. You say he's a baby, but that's true of most hunting dogs when they're just with their families. I actually think that if your ridgeback is around, that could be deterrent enough. At night your animals will be couped up and protected behind fences and walls, and your dog's scent will give predators some pause. During the day, if you can train him well enough that he can be out with the animals and be trusted, he'll probably take issue with predators trying to come around.

There were coyotes all around us when we had our labs. ***** too, and plenty of "free food" in the garbage bins, bird feeders, neighbors chickens. I don't think they ever really crossed our dogs' scent boundary. I don't think they really even came close very often. Right now my family doesn't have dogs, and the ***** are all over the place. So they do recognize the presence of a big dog as a big problem for them, even if the dog doesn't really feel the need to protect your livestock outright.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I wouldn't discount what a small dog could do. I know of one not over 12 lbs that attacked a grown bull...yes a grown bull...because that bull had gotten after that dog's owner. That little dog kept nipping at the heels of that bull until that bull started running to get away, then it stood on top of a log and told that bull he better stay across the stream from them. ROFL True story! So never discount what a small dog can do.

I know nothing about Rhodesian Ridgebacks except that they are quite large. I do understand a bit about labradors and some about pitbulls. They are both quite stubborn yet teachable and are very loyal. So your large "baby" may have propensities that are helpful and some that will not be. This means establishing yourself as the "alpha" is a must! (My labrador killed several of my fowl before he learned it was not ok. That occurred during his adolescent stage. Now he guards them very well.) If you have a FIRM hand with your "family pets", i.e. their knowing for sure you're the boss no matter what the situation may be, then you may have all the dogs you need for your place.

If you're especially wanting another "guard" dog, most any large breed you choose could serve that purpose. With such a small acreage they do not really need to constantly stay with your goats/sheep/etc. I have no experience with an Australian Shepherd yet extensive experience with a German Shepherd. (ROFL You've given me another opportunity to brag about Cherokee, my GS who was killed a few years ago by copperheads. See pics at end of this post.) Cherokee had a very strong prey drive; however, I got her immediately after she was weaned, established my dominance over her and attached her to a "mixed-breed shepherd" that had already been trained when I was not around. Cherokee turned into a very good "guard" for ALL the animals, fowl included.)

Your fencing will deter many predators and just the fact your dogs are outside roaming around your place will deter many as well. (Were it mine, I'ld start my fencing at least 15-20 feet from the road for a variety of reasons.)

With your place shaped the way it is, were it mine, I'ld set it up so the goats can have the front wooded part much of the time. They are more for browse than graze, though they do need some grass too. However, be aware goats will strip the bark off your trees and soon that wooded area will be full of dead trees. (The only way to protect the trees you want to keep there is to circle each tree trunk at least 3 times with chicken wire that goes up high enough so the goats cannot get to the bark.) Your setting your house in the middle of that acreage is not a bad thing. I say this because it is the way I set mine up and, in doing it this way, it gave me options I really like. (I've been thinking of adding hair sheep and, from the research I've done, running sheep with goats is not wise.) Also, you can actually build your barn (housing for whatever stock you decide on) in the middle in such a way that helps divide your property. Thus, one structure *well divided* fits the bill for several types of large animals...as well as a garden.  

Well, I'm just rattling on. Creating a homestead from scratch was fun for me and I can still feel the excitement you and your family will have in doing so. Enjoy!


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Rhodesian Ridgeback is what I always considered an example of "divergent evolution". They are a South African Black Mouth Cur. Or a Black Mouth Cur is a Texan Rhodesian Ridgeback. Bred with similar ingredients to fill a similar niche. I have always had superb luck with the various cur breeds, and have found them to have a high prey drive yet easily recognize the difference between livestock and vermin. Probably the result of many a well placed pistol bullet applied to their ancestry, to weed out the chicken killers, egg suckers, and lamb worriers. This is something, at least from the chicken end of things, (the animal that needs perhaps the most protection on the homestead) that, from what I have gathered from the popular LGD breeds, it is acceptable or even expected for them to kill chickens. Yell at a cur, most of them one time, and that is all you will ever have to do.

A dog need be no bigger than your ridgeback, Dogs that are the size of your ridgeback and smaller are used to successfully capture many bear in this country, even alone. I always considered a 50-60 pound dog as a superior bear dog to the 70-80 pound+ class, as they are just as effective and get injured less. Bigger usually means less agile and less capable of dodging and weaving in tight brush. Dogs of that size and smaller kill many coyotes as well. I know a guy whose beagles kill around 150 coyotes a year, yet hear of labs getting killed by coyotes, so it's not how big the dog is, it' how big the dog acts. The Rhodesians that I have been around acted bigger than a lot of the LGD breeds that I have seen.


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## arnie (Apr 26, 2012)

I like the cur dogs southern blackmouth and the Mt. cur . bred to be working intelligent all around homestead dog . from personal experince when I got a cur my varmit troubles ended .not being reconized by the AKC or as a pretty pet, they have not been subjected to the dumbing down required to live in a new york aparment or a show ring puppy farm .only bred by small countrysiders for the needs around a small farm as needed if you can find one a pup is best as they are faithfull and bonded to their owners


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## dltasig7 (Feb 5, 2015)

Trainer (Left) and Trainee (Rt). My 7 month old "puppy" in the pic where I'm holding him!


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## joejeep92 (Oct 11, 2010)

I love Rhodesian Ridgebacks...however our farm dogs are quite different with a similar selection of livestock as you listed. One is a rat terrier which is the first line of defense, if it moves on the place she knows it, plus I have zero small rodent trouble with her around. Next is our pit bull. Yes, I know, the dreaded bully breed. However, she has absolutely zero prey drive, as in the cat sleeps on top of her and I trust her completely around all livestock and our children. She never barks and never chases anything. When she does bark though, I know something is seriously wrong (unlike the rat dog which I pretty much tune out). She wanders around the property amongst the stock and does a check of the place periodically and checks on the kids so I think she is pretty perfect for our needs.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I'd train your pup as Wistco and Motdaugrnds suggest. "Border patrol" daily, encourage alertness and let him know which animals he must never, ever touch, like chickens, and which are fair game, like *****. I applaud you not jumping right to getting an LGD breed, many people do, often before they have livestock and they are really too much for the average owner and the small farm - they are bred for huge flocks and large acreage. Really, any well trained dog will do the job on a small farm, so pick a dog you like! Better yet, train the one you already have and love.

A good fence with a dog on the other side of it will keep a great many predators away, even if it's a little dog, so your 2 small ones may be more help than you think! And the best herding dog I ever had on the place was not my border collie mix, my aussie mix or even my GSD - but a dachsund cross. If a congenital heart defect hadn't taken him from us he'd have been all the farm dog we ever needed and then some!

Since someone mentioned it, it's not that LGDs in particular are _expected_ to kill chickens, just that they're left unsupervised around livestock waaaay sooner than any pup should be left unsupervised.
And _every_ pup is going to kill an adolescent chicken. Your pup will, my pup did, as did all the pups that came before. If you're doing your job, once will be all it happens, but adolescent chickens pretty much run around looking for ways to die and it doesn't take much effort for a playful, impulsive pup to oblige them. Take it as a training opportunity and move on, ignore all the "taste of blood" people. On a related subject, don't let your kids name the chickens. BTDT, it never goes well, the named chicken is cursed.


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## DatacomGuy (Jan 19, 2016)

Thank you y'all! Really appreciate all the insight!


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I would go with a dog large enough to take on coyotes. Keep in mind the coyotes often hunt in groups, so you wouldn't want a single 50lb Aussie trying to tangle with them. If you are looking for a 24/7 protector for your livestock, then you might also stay away from herding breeds. Even though occasionally people have trained them to leave the livestock alone, in many cases their herding instincts kick in and you could have dead or injured stock if no one is around to stop them.


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## dltasig7 (Feb 5, 2015)

...and then there's these guys! Irish Wolfhounds


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Rhodesian ridgebacks are used to hunt lion. Most people should not even own one. At six months old, with two older dogs, he seems like a baby. Well, he is still a baby. How old are they when full grown? Two years? Older. His puppyhood will be much longer than it was for your little dogs. As written above, train the ridgeback. Get a professional trainer. If you aren't really into dog training, clicker will work best for you and you'll be able to more quickly move to off leash, which is what you need. Get that dog solid on sit in every room in the house, then in the yard, then on a long lead take him out and work him on sitting as soon as you say the word without being near you. Teach him down (great park) and 'leave it'. Get the chickens and put the dog on lead and work him on sit, down, and leave it so he will not go after the chickens.

Doxies are pretty aggressive. They hunt badger and go into dark tunnels hunting. Your doxie would probably take on a coyote or bear single handed. But, he really does need the back up of the ridgeback.

Train. Train. Train.


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## CountryMom22 (Nov 27, 2014)

Trained right, that Ridgeback mix is all you'll need. They are a fierce breed, intensely loyal, easily trained and make good family dogs as well. Bred to handle extreme heat and cold nights, hunt lions and protect livestock, they should make great homestead guardians.

Oh, and of course we want to see pictures!


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