# question about LGD, pyr puppies



## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

Hi, 

we have the opportunity to pick up two Gr Pyr puppies,they are unpapered, fullblooded, 9 weeks old, from a man who has the 4 adults with a very large herd of goats over a huge tract of acreage..he does not interact with them much if any.

we like to have all our animals do their jobs and be sociable also, would these puppies already be past socializing well with humans considering the circumstances? 

also, we cannot decide on one or two, and should it be two females, or one male and female or two males if at least one gets neutered.... 
not sure if better to get one puppy at a time, then get another once the first one has grown some?

as we are new to LGDs wondering if those with experience think should we start with one or two, male or females or any other suggestions/tips to help us make a good informed decision,

thanks!


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Do you live on acreage?...Do you have livestock for them to protect?...What is your purpose for wanting them?..Then I can tell you 2 vs 1 

Fencing?


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## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

Fowler said:


> Do you live on acreage?...Do you have livestock for them to protect?...What is your purpose for wanting them?..Then I can tell you 2 vs 1
> 
> Fencing?


hi Fowler,
thanks for replying,

we have a small herd of dairy goats (18) who free range along with our chickens, ducks,& guineas and are picking up turkeys this week. We also want to get and raise some pigs.
We will be keeping the turkeys penned and have 25 broilers penned up and all are in the same general area, but have *****, possums and foxes that try to break in on occasion.

We are on 100+ acres, with about 5-10 cleared out and used. It is all thick woods, mostly fenced just with barbwire and some of that in disrepair as it hasn't been a high priority...
we do have some pens/fencing for our critters to contain them when we need to..

we have had sightings of wolves, numerous coyotes, *****, bobcats and what we think is a panther in woods near our home (altho fish and game will tell you none are in this state despite many witnesses)

We are tired of fattening up the chickens, etc to feed the nonstop predators every spring, and do lock all the animals up tight at night. Worried when the goats will start being featured on the menu...

one of my biggest concerns with the Gr pyrs is I keep reading that they are incessant night time barkers...wondering if that is a breed trait or individual?

also, neither Dh nor myself have experience with LGD's, but have had a number of different breed dogs between us.
thanks!


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Thanks for the info...it will help me and others help you.

First and foremost, fencing...what can you afford to keep your dogs in?

If not they will roam, and that leaves your chickens, etc. Alone...which defeats the purpose.

So #1 is fencing...fencing... fencing...it protects them from wondering and yes they bark mostly at night...you want them to bark how else will you know something is out there?

My boys dont bark at other dogs barking..but they do bark when something is out there.
And especially when coyotes are howling.
I prefer their barking...it lets me know if they need help..."you'll get use to it"

Now to your other question 2 LGD's are always better then one....in case they may need back up..."not to say they cannot still get hurt"..however your odds are more in their favor.

The pups are at the right age to train now!!....however they must be in their own pen near the goats and chickens...and you become the person "their Mentor" that teaches them right from wrong...it took me 3 months of nothing but paying attention to them to feel that I could trust them with my sheep..All my work is showing and will be worth the sleep I will soon get....LOL


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

And FYI...all I know about LGD;s were taught to me from the people here on HT

I'll give a shout to Bearfootfarms and Goatress and many other's, they will not steer you wrong...I learned from them and it works!!!


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

If you get two, it's generally recommended to get one of each sex, and spay/neuter as soon as possible. Whether you should get two or one depends on how much land, how many head of livestock, and what type of predators you have.

They can still be socialized at the age of 9 weeks, but if they are to protect the stock, you want to socialize them mainly in the pasture where the livestock are. If you want them to be people-friendly, make sure they meet a lot of different people before they are 4 months of age.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Ellie Mae said:


> We are on 100+ acres, with about 5-10 cleared out and used. It is all thick woods, mostly fenced just with barbwire and some of that in disrepair as it hasn't been a high priority...


If you want your LGDs to stick around, you'll need to put up good secure fencing, preferably 6 foot tall.



> one of my biggest concerns with the Gr pyrs is I keep reading that they are incessant night time barkers...wondering if that is a breed trait or individual?


Of course it varies from dog to dog, but as a breed, Pyrs are known for barking all night long. It's part of their guarding style, to let predators know they are there. My Akbash barks when he hears/sees/smells something; when nothing's going on, he is pretty quiet.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Wolf Flower said:


> If you want your LGDs to stick around, you'll need to put up good secure fencing, preferably 6 foot tall.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it varies from dog to dog, but as a breed, Pyrs are known for barking all night long. It's part of their guarding style, to let predators know they are there. My Akbash barks when he hears/sees/smells something; when nothing's going on, he is pretty quiet.


Same with my maremma's Wolf flower..they only bark when something is out there as in they can hear or smell it...and of course coyote howls....but they dont all night.


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## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

thanks for the replies, giving me lots to consider ever after reading for awhile now..

We are pretty isolated, not many frequent visitors, but do have some elderly folks who "just stop by" unannounced. We also have kids and grands that come stay on occasion, but not regularly...

We recently put up a large gate across the driveway to help deter that, but it's part of the culture here, so don't want an agressive towards humans dog unless it's called for.

I am such a light sleeper I won't get used to barking, that is why we have held off so long when the Gpyrs has been at the top of our list of LGD's.

DH was a Marine and could probably sleep through bombs going off....I wish I could, I have to wake him AND our housedog up when I hear something out of the norm, lol

I don't mind barking if there is a threat, that gives us a heads up to get out there, but from what I have read the GPyrs style is to warn off predators, not announce them so much. 
Figure when a threat is present the dog will be in action mode, not talking about it to us, lol

we know a LGD is a big commitment and we know we need one really badly, just trying to make sure we get the right breed so we have a happy match.

look forward to more suggestions, 
including alternate breeds..
thanks!


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Some LGD breeds are more human-aggressive than others. Kuvasz and Komondor come to mind as breeds that will guard against two-legged predators. Pyrs and Anatolians are generally more human-friendly. My Akbash loves people, but I understand that is unusual for the breed. A lot depends on how you socialize. Some people take a "hands-off" approach so that the dog bonds to the livestock and not to humans, but I don't think you have to do it that way to have a good guardian. Taking a puppy out to socialize with humans and the world at large is not going to "ruin" a good dog, IMO.


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## Laurie J (Mar 9, 2005)

We have a 7 year old Great Pyr female, and also a 3 month old (unrelated) Pry female puppy. Our 7 year old did very well by herself on our 50 acres for the first 5 years, but last year she was getting older and needed help. This spring we got the pup. I think this is going to be perfect! The puppy is adapting very well to our older Pry, and has already made herself at home with the sheep too. (She was born in a goat barn). I have heard different things about getting two pups together...that they play more and can get into mischief. Personally, I'd get one now, and wait a year or two to get another pup. Also realize that it will be quite some time before they will be able to guard your livestock effectively at this age. They are still "coyote bait" themselves!

Others have apparently had problems with their Great Prys wandering off. We've been very fortunate that ours stays with the sheep. Only occasionally will she come down to the house. Good luck! Can't say enough about what wonderful guardian dogs Great Pyrenees are! We'll ALWAYS have one!!!


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

2 is better than one for sure....you can mingle sexes as long as you make sure when she comes into heat brother can't play patty-cake with her, grin....
9 weeks you can still get them to socialize with you will just take extra work....but get on it right away....
With the predators you name for sure get at least two....


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## colemangirly (Sep 30, 2010)

I am not a breeder, trainer, and have never had a LGD before, but I will give you my 2cents. We got our pyr puppy at 3 months old. Same situation, not handled, but in with big group of goats and cattle and other dogs. It has take SOOOO much time to just get him to not cower in fear at us, then stop growling at us. Now he just barks like crazy and hides in corner from us. He is still a puppy and we are giving him time, but I need him to understand that WE (humans) are also okay to have around. If he even sees us in a distance, he barks like crazy at us (less at me). When the kids come to help with the goats, he goes off again, and dosen't stop until we leave. When I milk, he comes right up and barks and does "guard duty" while I am milking. I don't mind as I want him to protect his precious goaties, but after two months I was hoping he would learn to accept us just a little more. 

If I had to do it again, I would go with a working but socialized animal. I know that they bark, but i was hoping it wouldn't be at us so much.

We are still working with him and hope that we can work over things. I know they take time.

Tadpole Acres


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## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

colemangirly said:


> I am not a breeder, trainer, and have never had a LGD before, but I will give you my 2cents. We got our pyr puppy at 3 months old. Same situation, not handled, but in with big group of goats and cattle and other dogs. It has take SOOOO much time to just get him to not cower in fear at us, then stop growling at us. Now he just barks like crazy and hides in corner from us. He is still a puppy and we are giving him time, but I need him to understand that WE (humans) are also okay to have around. If he even sees us in a distance, he barks like crazy at us (less at me). When the kids come to help with the goats, he goes off again, and dosen't stop until we leave. When I milk, he comes right up and barks and does "guard duty" while I am milking. I don't mind as I want him to protect his precious goaties, but after two months I was hoping he would learn to accept us just a little more.
> 
> If I had to do it again, I would go with a working but socialized animal. I know that they bark, but i was hoping it wouldn't be at us so much.
> 
> ...


thanks for your input colemangirly, I was wondering about that as the LGD seem to be aloof and independent of people by nature, let alone these pups who have rarely even seen a human, lol

that would make me batcrazy to have my dog bark at me at nonstop, I raised some guinea keets who followed me around all day "barking" at me no matter what I was doing...ended up selling them for peace of mind, lol

We have decided to pass on this round of pups and will keep learning from all of you and doing our homework,
thanks everyone!


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

colemangirly said:


> I am not a breeder, trainer, and have never had a LGD before, but I will give you my 2cents. We got our pyr puppy at 3 months old. Same situation, not handled, but in with big group of goats and cattle and other dogs. It has take SOOOO much time to just get him to not cower in fear at us, then stop growling at us. Now he just barks like crazy and hides in corner from us. He is still a puppy and we are giving him time, but I need him to understand that WE (humans) are also okay to have around. If he even sees us in a distance, he barks like crazy at us (less at me). When the kids come to help with the goats, he goes off again, and dosen't stop until we leave. When I milk, he comes right up and barks and does "guard duty" while I am milking. I don't mind as I want him to protect his precious goaties, but after two months I was hoping he would learn to accept us just a little more.
> 
> If I had to do it again, I would go with a working but socialized animal. I know that they bark, but i was hoping it wouldn't be at us so much.
> 
> ...


I swear it is my mission in life to try to educate people about the fallacy of NOT socializing your LGDs.... 

I've heard stories of stockmen here (in US) having to shoot darts with tranquilizer into LGD's to catch them. Hardly what I consider convenient let alone humane. You CAN have the best of both worlds....your LGD CAN be touched, loved, handled, etc., guard your stock AND you AND your place....

Just sent off a Pyr pup to Canada with its happy new owner yesterday. She was so grateful to have him socialized....her previous experiences had been with the opposite.  Even her friend was happy.....to be able to hold and pick up pups without them crying, shaking, wanting to bite you or run off.... She reports the next day the pup was already in the goats and sheep, patrolling the fence line. Yes it can be done. I could never do it any other way I love my dogs too much....


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## colemangirly (Sep 30, 2010)

I totally believe that is the way to go also. We just got this pup free and it was a sort of rescue as I see it. He was wormy and thin. I just didn't take into account the not being socialized part. He IS getting better, don't get me wrong. It's just that I believe it is taking 5 times as long to work with him. On the other hand he is GREAT with the goats. He takes care of the babies already and they already run to flock around him when he barks. He is not rough at all and totally dedicated to them. He has improved with me, but still will not come to me. However, he dosen't run away and cower either. But when I am around he does bark like crazy. He is wagging his tail as long as I don't try to "get him" as he sees it. But, when I do "get him" he dosen't try to bite, but he is very nervous. He still wont eat from my hand any snacks, but he will eat from his bowl when I am in the vicinity, which he wouldn't do before. 

When I take the goats out to milk he is right next to me barking, but he stays just out of reach and so wont come out with them. But he gets as close as he can and watches the milking with a watchful eye on me as if to tell me I better not hurt his babies. Then when they are brought back in, he has to sniff them all over to make sure I didn't hurt them. 

I love his dedication, but wish he has been socialized. I almost thought about going back to get his sister to save her too after I saw how bad shape he was in, but now I am glad I didn't. I wouldn't be able to cope with two of them that distant towards us. They would have stayed together, and not needed the company that I provide when I scratch his belly (which he loves by the way).

My advice is if you are a newbie like me, go with something socialized!!

Tadpole Acres


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## Traci Ann (Jun 27, 2005)

We have a pyr/Antolian mix. 

Hank can and has climbed 6 ft privacy fences. He is fully socialized and a HUGE baby. 

We do not pen the chickens or ducks at night and have NEVER lost one! He protects it all!

He has and continues to roam, but he thinks the entire section is his to roam/protect, vs just our 5 acres and we are fenced and cross fenced here.


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## Rockytopsis (Dec 29, 2007)

We got our Pyrs at 4 months old. However I was able to visit them weekly so that I was not a stranger. Also they had children who mauled the pups daily. I have a lot of folks come to the farm and wanted the dogs socialized, but we are always with them when folks go to see the goats. I hope a stranger would think twice about crossing the fence.

We have brother and sister, we got both fixed at 6 months old.

As for the barking, we only have 11 acres, our dogs do not bark all night. When something is amiss they may bark for several hours, but not all night every night.

Ours have a path around the fence where they walk checking everything.

They know sit and their names, they come when they see us. I do touch them all over and handle their feet and they love to be brushed. Ours have enough hair on them for 10 dogs. Get used to being slimed. If you have to take them to the vet for yearly check ups, you will need a big truck. Ours no longer ride in my car for that as they live in the barn with the goats, we will have to use the horse trailer.

Ours are not PB's as their great, great, great, grandsire was a Newfoundland.

I am very happy with our dogs, the only time I watch them closely is when a small child goes in the the goat area, the dogs will give any small child a bath, then I have to rebathe the child in the house. LOL

A slide show of them then and now.


Nancy


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## ginnie5 (Jul 15, 2003)

We've had to put our fence up to 7ft....anything less Tucker can and will climb. He is not dog friendly either so I have to keep up the fencing. He does double duty as guardian of the chickens and guardian of the children. Our neighborhood has some undesirable elements in it so having a big dog that barks is a good deterrant to them. And he seems to know which ones are the ones to bark at. They will walk up and down the road and he is at the fence letting them know he is here and watching. After seeing pyrs and talking to people who have them as "pets" I thought one would be a good match for our family. We don't need/want a high energy dog, but need one that could be intimidating if the occasion arose, it also needed to be good around cats and chickens. Our main predators here are other dogs and hawks. Tucker keeps those at bay. He is great with the kids. My 6yo regularly sleeps on the floor with Tucker as his pillow.......even after being told not to. But if he doesn't know you....you are not getting around us. Even if he knows you and you are male you better behave! He is a ladies man. When one of the girls brings friends over he goes completely gaga over them.....rolls on his back to be petted, follows them nonstop, licks them......completely lovestruck! He's fine with younger kids we bring over too. He does bark.....at leaves, birds, squirrels, people going up and down the road. I can usually tell though when its his "I'm here world" bark or something I need to check on bark. We have the chickens put up at night right now (we were getting NO eggs) so he is inside at night.....only time he barks is if he hears something out there. Oh and he loves air conditioning and ice.


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## RedHillFrmMedic (Jun 23, 2011)

I just got 2 Gpyr's brother and sister, I just put them in with the goats, but one of the nannies keeps head butting them, not all the time but frequently, they are currently 11 weeks old, and playful, i'll roll them over and rub their little bellies, they give lots of kisses. I am just wondering after doing some more research, should I try to make them their own little space with a dog house or something. They did chase off a skunk the other day from my chickens, which BTW run the same pasture as my goats. I have about the hands off approach, but i just can't not love on my animals, it just seems wrong IMHO. BTW I haven't lost a chicken since I placed them in the pasture with the animals. I have it all fenced well with 2x4 welded wire. Thanks for advice in advanced.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Without an adult LGD there, I would place them in their own pen. The goat could hurt them, I would only let them out of the pen when you are with them to provide guidence and protection from the bully. And to also make sure they dont start chasing chickens, they are still young and playful.

A pen in the paddock with shade is all thats needed, the goats can see them and vise versa, they will get use to each other being around. When you spend time with them freely is when you can make sure they are not chasing, biting or playing too hard with the chickens or goats. Mine are 6 months now and I allow them freedom to be with the sheep at 4 months...when they proved themselves worthy of not hurting my sheep at five months I did away with the pen and now they guard the paddock at night.

Remember you are the one who has to show them right from wrong, and protect them from a bully...I had one too penelope and if given a chance would bulldoze them over.
I got onto to her too...now the pups are big enough and penelope is use to them...she even allows them to greet her in the morning with kisses.....LOL


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I agree with everything fowler said but have a suggestion for the Kennel. I originally had mine IN the pen with the goats~ who tore it up rubbing on it. Later I put mine outside the pen butted up against it with the gates opening into the pen so the goats can only get to one side of the dog kennels and I ran an electric line along there to keep the goats off it. My dogs go into their kennels twice a day for 10 to 15 min so they can eat in peace~ then they are back with the stock. This also keeps them in the habit of coming when I call. I think this works well for adult dogs. 

For dogs in training like yours I would probably put the kennel IN the pen~ but line the outside with either electric or a string of barbed wire so the goats don't scratch themselves and ruin the kennel. Take the dogs out as often as possible. Anytime you will be in proximity to put a stop to any inappropriate play. Only leave them in the kennel at feeding times and when no one will be around to catch them if they start to mess up. That goat that is butting them~ she is making sure they understand she is herd queen. Letitia does that~ she won't seriously hurt them unless they tag team her and make her feel actually threatened. Otherwise she is just keeping everyones position in the pecking order clear.

Good luck! Glad to hear you plan to keep them social. I also hate to see a dog not socialized. My Great Pyr is a really great guardian. His litter-mate sister went to my neighbor who threw her out in the pasture and ignored her. She had no training and no older dog to teach her appropriate from inappropriate play. She chased baby goats a lot. She tried to kill a goose I had given them (the goose came home to live with me again) She was found consuming a goat kid and no one knows if she killed it or it was dead and she was eating it. No one could put their hands on her. They had to trap her~ and then they sent her away to breed puppies, like those puppies are not going to be just as bad as her...if you can't put your hands on the momma what makes them think they could put their hands on the pups? That was a perfectly good dog~ I know because I have her full blood brother litter mate~ but they ruined her by neglecting her and telling themselves that was the right way to treat an LGD.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Sad story Cheryl and even sadder to think your neighbors now fancy themselves qualified to breed LGDs....good God. Talk about irresponsible. The littermate to my Pyrs is next to me but they love on her all the time, she is socialized, a sweetie, lives with their pygmy goat herd all the time except during thunderstorms when they bring her in the house ;~). Just a wonderful dog who got brought up the right way, not ignored or tossed out in the herd and basically abandoned.


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## RedHillFrmMedic (Jun 23, 2011)

Ok for a pen what about 1 dogloo which I have on hand and a pen made from 2x4 fence panels? I think I could make it to where they can't get out and it will under a big oak tree by the chicken pen but also close to the goat shelter. So feed and water them in the pen, but when do I let them out and for how long as I usually don't spend just a terrible amount of time in the pen or pasture ... Cheryl I hate to hear that.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

You don't have an older dog to do the training for you so this is going to be some work for you. You don't have to actually be IN the pasture but you do have to be where you can see or at least hear whats happening in the pasture every time you let the dogs out. Correct firmly ~Yelling while running at the misbehaving dog, intense eye contact, staring from above the dog make unhappy sounds until he submits by either getting low or rolling over, occasionally physical reprimand is needed but keep this to a minimum as it can quickly get out of hand and become counter productive if you are already mad at the dog because you had to run across the yard to get his attention. Consider buying or borrowing remote training collars. MAKE SURE you pay attention and remember which remote goes to which dog! (Made that mistake and Cricket continued to chase the chicken while I got madder and madder.....then I realized the screaming was coming from Tater who HAD been sleeping in the barn before his collar started zapping him!)

It is not acceptable for the dogs to chase goats EVER even in play. It is not acceptable for them to even LOOK at a chicken other than the chicken happened to be in his line of sight when he is looking at something else. Expect to lose some chickens....they are SO much fun to chase and squeal so nicely when caught! This is very rewarding so your disapproval needs to be VERY strong.

Praise as strongly as you Correct. Lots of GOOD DOG! They know the sound of approval even from across the pasture. If you praise them for running under flying birds and barking your dogs will never allow a hawk to strike the chickens. (Don't praise that if you plan to keep high flying poultry like Muscovy ducks....dogs can't tell it's a duck from under the duck...ask me how I know..  .. Lots and lots and lots of praise. And as much time as you can possibly allow out with the goats and chickens.

It will take you about 18 months....but then they will train your next dog for you!


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## RedHillFrmMedic (Jun 23, 2011)

Ok I will set it all up when I get home moday then.
Thanks
J


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> a pen made from 2x4 fence panels


Most LGD's *LOVE *to dig.

If you don't do something to prevent that, they will be gone in a hurry.

You can make an "apron" of wire around the inside perimeter of the pen that should help, but keep an eye on it because they can dig some monster holes in a short time


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## RedHillFrmMedic (Jun 23, 2011)

Will do, thank you all for your help. I really appreciate it.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Remember, these are smart dogs, do not spank or treat them badly, or they wont like you. They are your equal. They are doing you a favor by protecting, you are feeding them and belly rubbing they will also protect you.

I have noticed that they are stubborn, but they know their job.
I would sit in the paddock everyday after work, and let them out of their 20x10 pen and let them have time with the sheep. Sometimes they would chase, I would take off running to get between them with a loud eeeecckkk!!! and a pointed finger and serious face. Now the sheep are used to them and dont run when they come up to greet them. And eeeccckkkk!! is the word that controls them from chasing, jumping. I have trained them to sit and come with treats. However if they are working I would never pull them away from their duties. I allow them to have full control over the field with the sheep, they know their job. At night when I place them in the paddock, they get kuddos and treats, and head and back itching and told what good boys they are.

With a little disicpline from you to not chase or accidently hurt livestock you will have wonderful dogs. Remember you are their equal, they are not like house pets.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Different approach. My dogs are not my equal. I am Alpha. When I am happy they are happy~ when I stare at them and growl "Bad dog" they roll over, when I shout HEY! they stop and look to see what I want. I let them work the rest of the pecking order out for themselves. But I am in charge~ they are not my equals.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

A Maremma accepts the leadership of humans, but not their mastery. While being a good friend to man, the Maremma will not willingly be his slave. Born with exactly the right qualities for livestock guarding, the Maremma is not recommended for use as a pet.

http://maremmaclub.com/

I just so happen to have Maremmas. Not prys. So maybe they are differant.


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## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

I enjoy reading about everyone's LGD's and how they work with them, we had decided against getting a puppy as our plates are full and want to be able to devote the needed time and attention to raising one up...

I have read that it takes a long while to allow them to take charge, and the cautions against getting an adult dog or rescue, but can imagine the losses if we have to wait close to two yrs for a puppy to be on it's own, am I misreading that?
this week I had a fox run out of the woods right in front of me, grab one of our Pekin ducks and disappear before I could even take a step.

then two nights later a **** broke into the duck coop and killed our Pekin Drake...we caught it in a trap, but our losses this year to predators are high.

Sooo, I called back about the GPyrs puppies, but the owner said he had been playing with the puppies which was upsetting the mother and she hid them so well, he hasn't been able to find them in 2 weeks, he lives on a mountain top on 2500 acres...

so, I am back on the get a LGD now, bandwagon, lol


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Brazen fox~ you do need an LGD! Good luck! Your too far away for my Anatolians but they are a good dog you should consider.

Fowler~
I think we misunderstand each other. My dogs are not slavish like the house pets~ but they are not equals either. Every pack has to have a leader~ an Alpha. Thats me. I do not allow any of the dogs to be Alpha~ you should not either. You are the "master" as you put it in your post, NOT their "Equal".


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Cheryl aka JM said:


> Brazen fox~ you do need an LGD! Good luck! Your too far away for my Anatolians but they are a good dog you should consider.
> 
> Fowler~
> I think we misunderstand each other. My dogs are not slavish like the house pets~ but they are not equals either. Every pack has to have a leader~ an Alpha. Thats me. I do not allow any of the dogs to be Alpha~ you should not either. You are the "master" as you put it in your post, NOT their "Equal".


Cheryl I think we are saying the same thing, just differant. 
They mind me, but I dont call them up from their duties, if I need them I will place them all in the paddock. Trust me they know that I am their leader, I am the one that administers their food, petting, bathing, and even shearing.

My point is they are not house dogs and some people may think they should treat them as such and then when they do not obey silly commands, they could get frustrated and try to use force to make them submissive.

I trust them to know their job, and they trust me to give food, phrase, and belly rubs and correct mistakes.

I am pretty sure they know I am the alpha, when I correct them from chasing or playing too hard. It just takes a stern look and a loud noise (of your choice) to get them to behave. 

Like playing fetch, why would you want them to learn this? LGD's know their job, and they respect your authority because you are the one teaching them to behave properly with your livestock (if you dont already have an adult LGD)

I have notice that if I wear something differant like a raincoat, or flare my arms, do something they are not use to they get on guard and think something is wrong with me. After I say "it's me", they wiggle over for pettin.

Bottom line I dont make them submissive to me. I dont want them peeing on themselves just at the sight of me. We have a mutual respect and it took me a while to learn that. 


Elle mae My boys are only 6 months and are big enough to deter by their barking and size, to let other critters know they are there and watching I would put in the time to save yourself the heartache and loss later.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Ellie Mae said:


> Sooo, I called back about the GPyrs puppies, but the owner said he had been playing with the puppies which was upsetting the mother and she hid them so well, he hasn't been able to find them in 2 weeks, he lives on a mountain top on 2500 acres...


:flame: .....wonder how many of the pups are still alive at this point, crimony.... No excuse for that, no reason for it, period....what a flake....you are better off going to someone more responsible, don't even give that guy consideration. You will be biting off more than you can chew if you got one of those pups now.

I think as long as you reset your mind into not expecting an LGD to act like a pet dog you will be okay...it is a learning curve. They are different. They can be a handful. You MUST be alpha with them. 

I don't have any pups available at this time, I just sent my last two Pyr pups off to their new home on Saturday. 

I'll give you two links to ads with pups:

www.thefencepost.com (under work dogs)
www.capitalpress.com (under dogs/cats/etc)

Both have numerous LGD ads running any given time. All breeds, all kinds...


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## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

thanks for the links and advice Goatress,

I don't know the man who has lives on the mountain top, so not trying to defend him, but he lives kinda wild himself, and runs a large herd of goats, with 5-6 LGD's and has for yrs, but don't know any other details. 

A friend of ours who has a big heart for animals and lot's of livestock knows him well, she speaks highly of him and if the animals were mistreated she would be quite upset about it. 

I am a bit of a hermit myself, but still want and need a socialized dog..


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> but can imagine the losses if we *have to wait close to two yrs *for a puppy to be on it's own, am I misreading that?


It doesn't take nearly that long IF the dog has the instincts

They may not be fully "mature" until then, but they can still offer a level of protection by just being there.

99% of what they do is accomplished by their mere presence, and doesn't require actual contact with predators


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It doesn't take nearly that long IF the dog has the instincts


I have to agree with BFF here. A 4,5 mo old lgd will chase off predators. It's not rocket science, it's just territorial guarding instinct. After about 4-5mo they bark at any strange animal that dares to cross their property. The only disadvantage is that they chew when they are young. You want a younger dog, not an adult from somewhere else. You want them to bond to you and your animals. You don't teach them to guard, they just do it by instinct.
You do, however teach them to not chew, Or basically correct them until they outgrow it, and the same with teaching them to play nice, come when called, don't dig, etc. They just have to outgrow that puppy stage and learn social skills around your place. But you don't have to train them to guard or protect.
I bought a young pyr/anatolian mix off a lady on these boards just a couple months ago, and she is wonderful when it comes to protection. She doesn't even have all her adult teeth yet. She makes my pyrs look like wimps when it comes to protection though. Yet she is so gentle to animals here. I didn't train her to do any of that. 
Yet, if she comes in the house she opens potato chip bags, rips up toilet paper, and chews on shoes. Those are social skills that she still has to learn because she is a puppy. But she is wonderful about walking on a leash, being polite to us, taking care of any of her flock. You just have to teach them to be polite, not chew, not dig, etc. 

And BTW, all my LGDs have been housebroken on their own by the time they were 3mo old. They like it outside, so they just naturally go out to do their business. They are NOTHING like trying to housebreak a small dog. These dogs just do it themselves with no help from you as soon as they are old enough to hold it long enough to get out the door. Ours stay outside most of the time, but I let them in once in a while, especially if it is storming a lot or super hot. I also take them in the van to go bye-bye one at a time. They love to go get ice cream. They are honestly very easy dogs to have except for the profuse shedding. But they don't do tricks or obedience train well.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Mekasmom if I come by will you take me out for ice cream too? LOL.....sounds like a great life! And now I'm hankering for some ice cream!

Mine sound like yours: come in the house, my slippers go missing, trash cans must be emptied, furniture chewed...sigh.....but as they get older this stops, thank goodness. I have had some accidents on the rug though! ;~)


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Mmmmm...Ice Cream. 

Goatress, Boomer just chewed up my favorite crocs...I was so mad. Hubby let them in the yard while I was at work. And I found them in his hoarder pile with a tennis shoe, shades, nerf arrow, plastic pot, socks...LOL


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Our male literally chewed the phone box off the house, chewed up all the phone lines and internet connection, and TV lines that come through the phone. It cost us 2x the cost because we had to have the technician repair man come on a Sunday to repair it and run new lines, and put on the new phone box on the house. He said it was the first time they had a dog destroy them like that.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Ellie Mae, I know of a woman in Missouri that has a fantastic litter of AKC registered Anatolians that are 7 weeks old now. They are well socialized with kids....the human and the goat kind. I am getting one of them myself in a couple of weeks. They have great bloodlines too, from some of the best known Anatolian breeders in the country. PM me if you are interested and I'll give you her contact information.


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