# Uninformed Ignorant People



## Ray (Dec 5, 2002)

It seems to me that some of the most absolutely stupendous inventions come from people that were so ignorant that they just didn't know it couldn't be done that way. So what that tells me is that nearly everything we are taught in formal school is wrong! deliberately! 
So when you are experimenting try to remember to forget your formal learning and go for what instinct tells you. When people tell you it can't be done, just remember that they must have their nose against the wall and can't see any further than the wall itself, while you are standing away from the wall and see things they can't even dream of. 

When someone says thats against the laws of physics, what they are really saying is they have closed their mind to the fact that they have been taught lies. mans brain in some categories is comparable to teaching an earthworm algebra. So just because something is incomprehensible to one doesn't mean that everyone can't see a light out there in the darkness. 

The US government disallows around 5500 6000 patents each year due to *national security*. They have military vehicles both diesel and gas engines running on water systems. there have been over-unity and devices invented that could have allowed the whole world to have free energy 100 years ago, and hundreds of times since, but stopped by the Hyper-rich so they could control the money by keeping the world using their products, they were in control of, while they moved their family members into faux made up positions, banking and other controlling positions of power. In antiquity the ancients had lights that were still lighting their dark inner halls 2000 years after they were gone, but soon after our generation found these wonders the lights were extinguished and the secrets hidden from the common man. ask yourself why? why won't the governments allow the people to have free power? Two words Control, & Greed! open your mind, back away from the wall, forget nearly everything you were taught in college, if you dream it, it can be done, it can! best wishes ray


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

There are water/menthonal injection systems to lower ex temps but running on water??Do'nt think so,BIL has a rod out of 3206 Cat that is severly bent due to trying to run on water...did'nt work too good.


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## Ray (Dec 5, 2002)

Well I didn't break it down for you guys because I was ranting but the military vehicles are being run on water by breaking the molecules down to Hydrogen and Oxygen by using a frequency generator to separate the Hydrogen and oxygen then burning the hydrogen and returning the oxy. I understand the process by reading about it somewhat. believe what you want thats exactly what they want. self obedient little sheep that will tell all others that they are crazy, and need meds. You know you can deny that the Moon is there but that doesn't make it so. I really hope they allow some of the old processes out to the public sooner than later but I expect the money controllers will hold on to the last, keep your blinders on and you'll be happy, best wishes ray


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

If you don't know what is in the box how can you think outside it?


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Most people live in boxes.

A few like to step outside of their boxes.

A very tiny few have no idea where their box is.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Water the by product, the ash left over from the burning of H2 and O2. It is ALWAYS going to take more energy to reform it from H2O to H2 and O2. Why? Because energy was released during its production. 

The only way water can even start to come close to being a _limited_ portable fuel supply is to have a HUGE and cheap energy source somewhere in the chain.

TANSTAAFL


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## roachhill (Jul 8, 2009)

I agree Hydrogen is a energy storage method not an energy source because we don't have free hydrogen on this planet. Only Hydrogen in compounds such as water and it takes energy to break the bonds. The only obvious purpose for hydrogen is to keep or transport solar or wind energy for later use.


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## georgec (Jul 9, 2007)

An engine running on water is a perpetual motion machine. You seperate the hydrogen from the water, you burn them to drive the engine, you get all of the water back, then start back at the beginning.

This is not possible, it is very simple chemistry. Am I a sheep bacause I believe in simple chemistry and physics? I don't think so.

If the military had the ability to run vehicles on water, why would the put it in automobiles? It would make much more sense to put the technology into ships, they are surrounded by water.


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## Ray (Dec 5, 2002)

its even been on CNN, and FOX


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

on CNN and FOX, eh? got any links to the stories or elsewhere? Would be interested in reading them.
Unless you're talking about something like this? http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/04/17/hydrogen-eco-car-race/

They've been trying to make that commercial for decades. I remember reading about it in High School some...er...a number of years ago  It's rather like the electric car problem. Hydrogen takes HUGE bulky containers. The separators are huge and bulky. Until they solve that problem, it's a no go. Looks like they may have a solution in the works tho. rather like the batteries that were shown at one of the technogeek fairs last year. The size of a fingernail and the power of a 12volt.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

georgec said:


> An engine running on water is a perpetual motion machine. You seperate the hydrogen from the water, you burn them to drive the engine, you get all of the water back, then start back at the beginning.
> 
> This is not possible, it is very simple chemistry. Am I a sheep bacause I believe in simple chemistry and physics? I don't think so.
> 
> If the military had the ability to run vehicles on water, why would the put it in automobiles? It would make much more sense to put the technology into ships, they are surrounded by water.


It requires huge amounts of wattage to seperate water into H2 and O2.

When they re-join they will release energy, less energy then was used to pull them apart.


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## Ray (Dec 5, 2002)

I'm really not out to prove anything to anyone, and was just ranting and you can go on believing what you want. however I am telling the truth. and anyone with a little effort can come across particular this info easily. I believe he said he was using a frequency generator to separate the hydrogen from oxygen, he was trying to create a way to cure cancer, when he came across this way to break the bond with the frequency generator. If you do a little research you can easily find the information yourself. best wishes, ray I'll take a look around if I get time, and if I come across one of the old vids I'll put a link to it here for you guys, there were lot of vids.


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## Michael Kawalek (Jun 21, 2007)

Ray said:


> I believe he said he was using a frequency generator to separate the hydrogen from oxygen, he was trying to create a way to cure cancer, when he came across this way to break the bond with the frequency generator.


Even if you can separate water into hydrogen and oxygen with a frequency generator, it takes energy to do that. And it always, always, always takes more energy to get the separation then you can get back by burning/reacting/fuel celling the hydrogen. If you think otherwise you are simply a silly, deluded fool. If you really want a perpetual source of energy, get yourself a woodstove and start chopping. There is NO free lunch!


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

And now that you have pulled the H & O apart it is now going to take even more energy to pump/compress it into storage tanks.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Ray, I think so far out of the box that I have trouble figuring out where the box is. I can tell you, though, that the laws of physics can really stub your toes!

If you think it can be done, then knock yourself out. I think, though, that energy is neither created or destroyed so where will your energy come from to run the machine?

Because I *DO* Think outside the box, I have done a few things that nobody thought that I could do. Breaking a law of physics was not any of them. But, if you think that you can, more power to you! Though, the folks who think that this is possible have yet to present a working model. Somebody else is always said to have the model: never "Here it is, set up and running now for X number of days. Come and see it.".

Worst case scenario is that you come up with a new way of doing something. Probably not the perpetual motion machine, but, something else that is pretty cool.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I get it, Ray.

I read one book, a while back..... "Dead Men's Secrets".
That book, combined with other tidbits that I've stumbled across over the years, is all the evidence I need.

The simple technology that is hidden from the common man is mind boggling.

The assumption by the common man that he has been told all that he has a right to know is a tragedy.

The way that Ray and his perspective have been treated on this "alternative", and "think outside of the box" forum is inexcusable.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Ray said:


> I'm really not out to prove anything to anyone, and was just ranting and you can go on believing what you want. however I am telling the truth. and anyone with a little effort can come across particular this info easily. I believe he said he was using a frequency generator to separate the hydrogen from oxygen, he was trying to create a way to cure cancer, when he came across this way to break the bond with the frequency generator. If you do a little research you can easily find the information yourself. best wishes, ray I'll take a look around if I get time, and if I come across one of the old vids I'll put a link to it here for you guys, there were lot of vids.


Yes that is how it is done industrially.

On subs in our O2 Generators we use an RF signal to pull apart water.

That is how we do it.

I have spent years around O2 Generators.


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## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

Forerunner said:


> The way that Ray and his perspective have been treated on this "alternative", and "think outside of the box" forum is inexcusable.


What is inexcusable? Asking him to prove his statements? Not believing that the laws of physics are government perpetrated lies intending to make slaves of us all?

I'm sorry, but I must be one of those duped individuals. I believe in the conservation of energy: energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only be transformed from one state to another.

When someone comes on the forum and says "somewhere out there someone has come up with free energy, but the government is keeping it from us, and if you don't agree then you've been brainwashed" with no proof, and very bad logic, then its understandable that people question them.

I was hoping this thread would die a quick death since government suppression of free energy sources rates right up there with Bigfoot and Elvis sightings. Someone is SURE that its true, but they have no proof.

Ok, a logic problem: The government can't keep secrets. Free energy will get the inverter massive amounts of cash. Why hasn't someone leaked the secret? If the government has all this advanced technology, why are they spending so much money on fuel for the military vehicles? Oh, I forgot... they aren't REALLY spending that money on fuel, its going to the rich industrialists that bought off the officials, and the vehicles are actually running on water... and somehow every single person in the military has been kept from spreading this information. 

Michael


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Ya know it's better communication of an idea when you don't start off potentially insulting people by calling them ignorant or sheep. Then to continue on in the face of simple facts, that hundreds of thousands of soldiers somehow are keeping a secret fuel source to themselves, honestly makes me wonder who is trying to fool who? And why..... but I'm curious enough to keep reading and know the good people here are watching this thread for potential abuses. 

Terri said it best:


> Worst case scenario is that you come up with a new way of doing something. Probably not the perpetual motion machine, but, something else that is pretty cool.


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## tamsam (May 12, 2006)

Getting anything past the big companies is the problem. Does anyone remember the turbine engine? It was back in the 60s and would run on anything liquid that would burn. Remember the Indy 500 that a turbine was run and would have won if a bearing in the trans had not failed. It was then banned from Indy Racing. There were test cars and trucks being used. I saw a big tractor that pulled 2 trailers over a million miles with no problems. These were made by one of the big three. A big name bough them out and the turbine was no more. I heard that the blueprints were even burned. I hope they can do what they are trying but we may well never be able to afford one. Sam


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## idahodave (Jan 20, 2005)

Google gas turbine...no conspiracy just an expensive way to go.

Do you think that foreign countries care what business thinks? How about Iran or North Korea honoring patents or any other US agreement. If this stuff were real other countries would be using it in a heartbeat.


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

ya know...I DID google it. I'm quite good at researching things. If I'd been able to find one SHRED of evidence for your claim about it...I would have posted it. But I couldn't. Hence, my request. Where can I read about this? I ask that of anyone who posts something that I think deserves looking at...but they just post a random "here's what I found" without anything other than their word for it. If the person posting a "fact" isn't willing to back it up with anything other than [i said so, go look it up yourself], he/she should expect others to question that "fact".

so..."I believe he said he was using a frequency generator to separate the hydrogen from oxygen, he was trying to create a way to cure cancer,..." HE WHO?

Ray, your posts are disjointed. As though you have typed in more somewhere and then deleted it? I just don't see anything to point to a particular person, or cohesive idea. Who are we talking about?

there are hundreds of things out there that were put by the wayside because they weren't profitable at the time. Look at the gasifier, for instance. Or the simple fact that the diesel engine was designed to run on peanut oil. but at the time cheap petro fuel came online...they turned to that instead of the expensive peanut oil. Now...many are returning to the veggie oil, or even the filtered waste petro oil..but it's not commercially viable for a big company to get into it. 

Calling names and ranting about people on this site isn't going to get you loved and respected. That's like going into a Cathedral in the middle of High Mass and yelling that they're all idiots and pedophiles.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCu67mWxioE[/ame]


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

As ET1 SS pointed out this generator has been around for a while. I wonder just how much energy is going through the RF generator to release the hydrogen in the water.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

12vman said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCu67mWxioE


Way cool, and very different from the ones I have seen before! Though I would not say that it violated the laws of physics: it is known that energy is released when some molecular bonds are broken, and hydrogen does burn.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

There is a water heater that uses electric and puts out MORE BTUs of energy than goes into it,remember it being tested at a fire station and they backed up the results.Puts everything we know about energy laws on its ear.

Anybody remember that,was a couple years ago.

I still think we dont know everything and in fact know very little in the major scheme of things


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Just a guess Boo but perhaps it had chemicals in it to de-calcify the tank and they reacted adding chemically generated heat? Not a clue really.


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## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

mightybooboo said:


> There is a water heater that uses electric and puts out MORE BTUs of energy than goes into it,remember it being tested at a fire station and they backed up the results.Puts everything we know about energy laws on its ear.
> 
> Anybody remember that,was a couple years ago.
> 
> I still think we dont know everything and in fact know very little in the major scheme of things


WRONG! It was probably a standard heat pump water heater. Just like a standard AC or heat pump, you can get 3X the heat as energy used. You can buy them off the shelf, but they cost more than a standard heater. These heaters follow all of the thermodynamic and physics laws as we know them. Why aren't they common?  $1,500 vs. $450 They also require more maintenane (filter cleaning) and have the increased possibility of breakdowns. 12 year warranty, however thats only on the tank.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

So to be clear you get 3x the heat as a standard water heater uses with one of these heat pump water heaters? Well worth the money then.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Ok wait a sec they're using geothermal heat so the gain is sourced from the earth temp. It ain't early but I mustn't be a awake yet!


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## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

Ross said:


> So to be clear you get 3x the heat as a standard water heater uses with one of these heat pump water heaters? Well worth the money then.


I said 3x, since thats sort of the default COP of AC systems. After checking, the water heater I mentioned "uses 55% less energy", which means its closer to 2x. I believe the unit is an air source, not geothermal.

I would like to get one of these, but I'm too cheap. Even with the federal tax credit, I'd still be looking at $1000. Our electricity comes from the city, and they don't offer rebates.

Michael


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## Michael Kawalek (Jun 21, 2007)

tamsam said:


> Getting anything past the big companies is the problem. Does anyone remember the turbine engine? It was back in the 60s and would run on anything liquid that would burn.


Yes, I do remember the gas turbine engine, mostly because it was published in my yearbook encyclopedia. Gee, I guess the yearbook people never got the conspiracy memo. How sloppy of them!

It's the marketplace that decides these things. Look what has happened to other, just slightly innovative engine designs. What happened to VW air-cooled engines? What happened to Mazda's rotary engine? How about the Beta format video tape recorder? Where these part of the big government conspiracies? 

It's time we stopped talking about this nonsense are starting working on real alternative energy. Me, myself, am now installing woodstove pipe. Go ahead and sit out in the cold talking about conspiracies, but me, I'll be sitting warm in front of my woodstove sipping two buck Chuck!


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Ross said:


> Just a guess Boo but perhaps it had chemicals in it to de-calcify the tank and they reacted adding chemically generated heat? Not a clue really.


I'll have to find it.It was like 2 horizontal roller bars and the had indents in them.The water flowed between the rollers and the shearing action created friction heat.Ran on electric motor and put out more energy than what went in.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Here it is,cavitation water heating.Let me find a printed article

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw[/ame]
-----------------------------
"It is a cavitation water heater. What it does is basically bash and mash up water to the point that heat is produced. It&#8217;s likely that they&#8217;ve come up with an ultra efficient water heater requiring no gas or fuel. It would be electric powered in that it needs electricity to turn an agitator. 

They go on to claim that they have measured output of their water heater at 170% efficiency."

Hmmmm......??


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Hope I can find the testing done on unit at the Fire Dept and their results.

Its a really simple system, though if it worked why wouldnt they be selling em like hotcakes ?

And PLEASE dont jump MY case about this,its something Ive seen and tossing out for public knowledge,take it or leave it at that,Im not here to defend it.
----------------------------
OK,this...
At Rome, Georgia Jim Griggs of Hydrodynamics, Inc demonstrated the assembly and operation of a "hydrosonic water pump" which operated over-unity by producing hot water or steam with energy in excess of the electrical energy input to the pump motor. "Over-unity" was confirmed by satisfied customers, including the Albany Fire Station, where engineers from the "local university" and the "local power company" had been called in to verify the over-100% efficiency.
---------------------------------


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Michael Kawalek said:


> It's the marketplace that decides these things. Look what has happened to other, just slightly innovative engine designs. What happened to VW air-cooled engines? What happened to Mazda's rotary engine? How about the Beta format video tape recorder? Where these part of the big government conspiracies?


Were these part of the big government conspiracies? 

Yes and no.The VW aircooled couldnt meet smog requirements ,it WAS a very good engine.Thats gov that did it in.

The Mazda rotary is going strong in the Mazda RX-8 to this day.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

So who knows,apparently he IS selling these things FWIW
http://www.earthrainbownetwork.com/MiracleinVoid.htm

(6) Hydrosonic or cavitation devices - James Griggs' Hydrosonic Pump is already being sold to customers, regularly providing them with over-unity energy. An energy efficiency consultant from Georgia, Griggs invented the pump as a result of his curiosity about a common phenomenon called water hammer or cavitation. Griggs noticed that heat emanated from fluids, which flow quickly through the pipes of a boiler causing water pressure to drop in part of the pipe. Bubbles formed in the low-pressure areas collapse when carried to areas of higher pressure. The resulting shock waves collide inside the pipe bringing about the water hammer effect.7

Griggs' pump is made up of a cylindrical rotor that fits closely within a steel case. When the rotor spins, water is forced through the shallow space between the rotor and the case. The resulting acceleration and turbulence created in the gap somehow heats the water and creates steam. In 1988, a testing expert found that the heat energy put out by the hydrosonic pump was 10 to 30% higher than energy used to turn the rotor.

In 1990, Griggs started Hydrodynamics, Inc. He and his partner have invested over a million dollars in the business. The units they are selling are not only more efficient than standard boilers but they also require less maintenance. They are self-cleaning and eliminate the problem of mineral build-up that reduces the efficiency of standard boilers. Georgia Power and the civil engineering department at Georgia Institute of Technology are currently conducting studies of the pump.

A new cavitation device similar to the Griggs machine is now available for testing, scientific investigation and purchase by research laboratories. This is the "Kinetic Furnace" of Kinetic Heating Systems, Inc. of Cumming, Georgia. Jointly invented by Eugene Perkins and Ralph E. Pope, the furnace is a heat-producing rotary cavitation device for which the inventors have been granted four United States patents, the most recent one in 1994. Numerous independent companies and testing agenices have found the same over-unity performance: Coefficient of Performance or C.O.P.(the ratio of output to input power) in the range 1.2 to as high as 7.0, with most typical operation in the range 1.5 to 2.0. Dr. Mallove and Jed Rothwell of Infinite Energy recently confirmed the excess heat in a preliminary on-site test.

The reactions responsible for the excess energy in the Perkins-Pope device may be novel nuclear reactions or the tapping of energy reservoirs that some have referred to as new hydrogen energy states or zero point energy. There is no possibility, according to Dr. Mallove, that the device can be explained by chemical energy or "storage energy".

The Kinetic Furnace represents a technology that will have application in water and air heating, and perhaps in self-standing electric power production and rotary mechanical power production. One of the largest commercial hot water heater manufacturers in the world, State Industries of Tennessee, has been calling regularly to check on the inventors' progress. That company, and no doubt others, are taking a keen interest in the near-term prospect of equipping their commercial water heating systems with devices that could save the consumer 30% or more of their electric utility bills.

First Gate Energies (formerly known as E-Quest Sciences) has created devices that use ultrasound induced cavitation. to produce large amounts (hundreds of watts) of anomalous excess energy. Experimental devices also produce helium and in some experiments significant amounts of tritium. The process does not produce any observable penetrating radiation or nuclear waste. 8

There is no consensus regarding how this process works. According to one hypothesis, a myriad of collapsing bubbles form during multi-bubble cavitation produced by intense ultrasound, and the individual bubbles act like micro-accelerators injecting deuterons and other ions into nearby solid lattices. Under the influence of the lattice and with other stimulation, nuclear reactions involving deuterons and other nuclei are initiated and controlled.First Gate has successfully demonstrated their devices and methods at Los Alamos National Laboratory and at SRI International. It is currently seeking strategic alliances with companies which can help them develop commercial products such as hot water heaters and space heaters.

The Physics of Zero-Point Energy As impressive as the experimental evidence may be, most scientists do not seem to understand how these "free energy" devices could work, since they seem to violate the laws of thermodynamics. Only when the new processes are understood properly will it be seen that they behave lawfully. We see a growing consensus among some physicists and systems engineers concerning the changes in theoretical models that will be required to account for the growing number of experiments pointing to this phenomenon.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

The last two paragraphs seem to sum up any critism before it starts. They know it should not violate the laws of thermodynamics, and they offer a theory to explain a potential source for the gain in energy. 
Now that is interesting. If you can use this system to harvest energy as heated water then you have the potential to collect it as electrical energy which has other uses. Not that cheap hot water is useless!  Thanks Boo!


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