# "the 30-06 is never a mistake"



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

many of you will recognize this as a quote of Colonel Townsend Whelen

born in 1877 he died in 1961 at 84 years old , much of his research was done in the early 1920s does it hold true today 

well before I knew anything about Mr Whelen or any of his research when i was 14 years old i bought my firsts rifle converting the earnings from my job into a rifle I will have for a lifetime. as many young men do 

at the time living in Wisconsin 3 guns made what could have been called the Wisconsin arsenal a 12ga , a 30-06 and a 22lr there just weren't any game in the state you couldn't shoot with that combo effectively add in that every hardware store carried the ammo for all 3 as common as 16 penny nails.

now more than 100 years after the 30-06 cartridge was created and 90 years after much of Whelen's research every time i look at a cartridge i compare it to the available ammo for the 30-06 and a lot more than not I find myself saying well it just isn't an improvement or enough of an improvement in performance to justify 

the trend to go with a longer heavier bullet for caliber was one of Whelen's topics of research and we see it in cartridges in 6mm 6.5 and 7mm that are made off the 30-06 and 308 as well as others that take advantage of the increased ballistic co-efficient of the longer bullet with a greater weight to diameter ratio to get flatter longer range cartridges and while the 30 cal starts dropping energy at a much faster rate than the smaller diameter rounds often I find it had the energy to loose so that the comparison is still neck in neck at 500 yards for velocity ,energy , and trajectory 

when ever i am thinking of a new cartridge to compare i go to http://www.winchester.com/Products/rifle-ammunition/Performance/Super-X-rifle/Pages/default.aspx and compare the numbers to 30-06 most of the time leave thinking that it is impressive how little actual gain is achieved on a >100 year old cartridge 

at least when compared to non magnum cartridges

leaving me agreeing that the 30-06 is still never a mistake , well at least not at distances under 400 yard and there just are not many who should be or are taking shots at game over 400 yards.


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## tarbe

I agree.

The 30-06, especially when owned by a handloader, is very, very versatile.

Oddly enough, despite being an incurable gun guy for over 40 years, I have never owned one!

I have owned 4 .308 Winchesters (currently own 2). As a handloader, the .308 is capable of doing anything I need to do with a rifle. I can shoot it in my garage with 2 grains of Bullseye under a cast bullet, or kill a 700 lb elk with full-bore stuff.

But yes, we could get along quite nicely with just the 30-06 as our only centerfire rifle, in NA.

Mister Rifleman was my first exposure to the good Colonel (coincidentally, when I too lived in Wisconsin) and I hold him in high regard to this day!


Tim


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## JJ Grandits

I have to agree. As I stated in another post I am looking for a centerfire rifle to fit a certain nitch and inspite of everything out there the .30/06 keeps coming up.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

part of what is interesting is that where the 6 6.5 and 7mm heavier for their diameter projectiles keep coming up as making gains on 30-06 or 30 cal in general but it doesn't happen till around 300 yards and beyond it really starts the become a gain between 400 and 500 but the cartridge that started slower at the muzzle is still moving faster than the bullet that started faster but frankly the 30-06 had the energy to loose to still be the same as the round with higher ballistic coefficient at 4-500 yards it isn't till you enter the magnum cases that there is room for more slow burning powder to get much better than 30-06 unless someone finds a good way to break the 60,000psi threshold of the metal used to make chambers and barrels not to much will change 

the interesting thing is if you make a heavy bullet for a small diameter it raises pressure so there is a definite limit


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## lonelytree

If you can't kill it with a 30-06.....RUN!!

I have a Tikka T3 in 30-06. Love it. Gonna drag it around for 4 days this weekend looking for a bou.


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## AR Aaron

Would be hard to argue with any of your points. If I had to pick one cartridge for center fire rifle 30.06 would be it I think. That being said I don't currently own one, but several of its offspring so to speak. Have been thinking of adding one though, but this latest ammo shortage has me rethinking my gun selection, and getting me motivated to get reloading press fired up again for something other than 38 specials.


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## simi-steading

I'm a huge 30-06 fan... Especially after seeing what it does to a 5 gallon metal paint can with the lid sealed on and full of water at 75 yards or so... If you ever have a chance to shoot one of those with an ott six, do it... Seeing the lid rise 35 feet in the air on a column of water, and then see the 4 sides of the bucket pulled into the center, you realize the real power of this round.. 

My second favorite round is the 7x57, which the 06 was built from and improved on... both very worthy rounds... I was actually running some comparisons today on a web site, that were interesting between the two.. Amazing the differences though between manufacturer and slug weights.. Some are real close, some are real different. 

The next rifle I am after is a 1903 Springfield.. Been wanting one for years, but only recently have been seriously thinking about finding a nice one.. I just picked up a new Military Surplus magazine tonight because it has an article in it about the 1903 (along with some other great guns... )

I showed it to my wife, and said if she was having problems thinking about what to get me for Christmas.... 

OH.. speaking of .38... Had a friend give me 750 rounds of it last night.... to feed the Security Six he handed my wife a month or so ago... Now that's a heck of a great friend...


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## Jolly

Some measuring apparatus may not have been as sophisticated in the old days, but never discount the firearms knowledge of guys in the early part of the twentieth century.

I offer as evidence many of the Savage cartridges, such as the 300 Savage...look at how efficient they are and what you get for what you put in them...


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## Roadking

What???? No pics????:hrm:
Springfield Garand








03 Springfield








Matt


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## wogglebug

I agree that the .30-06 is a great round, particularly in a bolt gun that can stabilise heavy bullets. The 7.62x54R and the 8mm (7.92mm) Mauser are pretty-well functionally equivalent, but they don't have the variety of firearms and rounds and hence the versatility that the .30-06 does. The .308 is good, but it's just about done its dash at 180 grains, where a .30-06 will stabilise not only 180 grains, but also 200, 220 or maybe even 240 grains. If you hit something with a 220 grain or 240 grain round-nose solid at maybe 200 yards, then you don't really need a magnum anywhere on the North American continent; but the recoil is nowhere near as savage as a magnum. At the same time, it will drive anywhere down to around 110 grain.

Add in the 12 gauge, and the .22 rimfire, and you can certainly take down just about anything in the Americas. I'd just add one more round, a 6mm like for instance the .243W, and you'd have it all covered. The .243 is versatile from varmint up to deer-killing, and will shoot weights up to around where the .30-06 picks up. In fact. with those four rounds you could field an arsenal that would give you two firearms out of the four to address any particular purpose that a long-arm could do. Add a couple of hand-guns and you'd fit-out a family pretty well, but without the .30-06 you'd come up short of ideal on the high end.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

well of your going to add in 7.62x54r and 8mm mauser you have to toss the 303brit in that mix , the 303 has taken more game outside the usa than any other cartridge they are were hugely popular in Canada , Australia and many parts of Africa I suppose you could say the English speaking world 

but like you said the 30-06 makes gains on all of them 
mauser is like 06 short and fat and the 54r and 303 are like 06 short fat and rimmed 

a rimmed cartridge does make for easy head spacing ,and the ability to make cat sneeze loads without setting back the shoulder during firing


as for the need for a 243 i don't see it , if you put a 80 and 100gr 243 up in direct comparison to a 125gr 30-06 the trajectory of the 06 lines up with the 100gr 243 all the way out to 500 yards within less than 1 inch , and the energy of the 125 gr 30-06 does start to fall off between 200 and 300 yards but is still at least equal to the 80gr 243 , now go back to my standby 150 gr 30-06 and sure the trajectory is still within an inch at 300 yards to the 100gr 243 , and the 150 gr 30-06 had the energy to loos and still have more at 500 yards than the 243 100gr bullet 

for shooting inside 300 yards nothing short of a magnum seems to make any substantial gains on the 30-06


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## wogglebug

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> well of your going to add in 7.62x54r and 8mm mauser you have to toss the 303brit in that mix , the 303 has taken more game outside the usa than any other cartridge they are were hugely popular in Canada , Australia and many parts of Africa I suppose you could say the English speaking world
> 
> as for the need for a 243 i don't see it ... for shooting inside 300 yards nothing short of a magnum seems to make any substantial gains on the 30-06


I'm well acquainted with the .303 British - was more-or-less raised on it. However, I wouldn't rate the cartridge with the .30-06. It's definitely a tad less energetic. 

Definitely still a man-killer, definitely still enough oomph to put down game,but where the .303 earned it way was as a total weapon system. The .303 British originated as a compressed black-powder round pushing a 220 grain round-nose bullet, and when they converted it it lacked a little in propellant capacity compared to the newer smokeless powder rounds - which incidentally has to say something about comparing the push of black powder versus nitro. Where the .303 British made its mark as possibly the greatest bolt-action battle-rifle system ever was in the ten-shot SMLE rifle, and with the bottle-shouldered round that could be jammed in and reefed out despite just about any dirt and crud the cartridge or the chamber may have picked up.

The 8mm Mauser and the 7.62x54R both rate with the .30-06 for energy when in a standard military load with a 180 or 200 grain bullet, but they just don't have the variety of rounds which the .30-06 does.

.243W - well, it CAN do a lot of the low end jobs the .30-06 does, and it can do it for a ten-year-old or a recoil-averse shooter. Where I rate it is as a dual-purpose round that covers the varmint end of things as well. I can see very little purpose in a .2*2*3 alone - it just doesn't have and hold the energy you need to knock down larger game if things don't go perfectly, and varmint shooting alone is a hobby, not a way of earning a living. You can't reasonably go out and shoot deer or feral hogs with a .223. However, you can go out walking around with a .2*4*3, and have a reasonable expectation of bringing home whatever you meet for dinner - hare or hog, deer or even rabbit or woodchuck if that's what volunteers.

However, your basic point stands - the .30-06 is never wrong.


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## tarbe

wogglebug said:


> The .308 is good, but it's just about done its dash at 180 grains, where a .30-06 will stabilise not only 180 grains, but also 200, 220 or maybe even 240 grains. If you hit something with a 220 grain or 240 grain round-nose solid at maybe 200 yards, then you don't really need a magnum anywhere on the North American continent; but the recoil is nowhere near as savage as a magnum. At the same time, it will drive anywhere down to around 110 grain.


Just to stir the pot..........


A .308 shooting a 180 gr Barnes TSX at max velocity with deliver more kinetic energy at 200 yards than an '06 will shooting a 220 gr RN. It will also penetrate more deeply (unless the 220 grain bullet is a Partition or similar premium bullet...then penetration will be similar...and enough to fully penetrate pretty much anything anyone is going to shoot in NA with a 30 cal).

When it comes to splitting hairs between the 308 and 30-06, bullet selection will often make more difference than the extra 100 to 200 fps that you can squeeze out of the '06 at the muzzle.

Remember too that the MAP for the 308 is 2,000 CUP higher than for the '06....so the difference in performance is not as great as one might think, just due to the delta in powder capacity. 


Just stirring the pot! :banana:


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

wow you really are stirring the pot 

forget caliber the calculation of a 220gr projectile at 2300fps is 2585fp of energy 
a 180gr at 2600fps (about max for 308) is 2703fp of energy 

but a 30-06 can take it up to a max of 2800fps 3134fp of energy

180 gr is really the sweet spot for the caliber in a 308 or 30-06 any heavier and you start loosing speed and lighter and you don't bring the energy 

actual loads will be a hundred to two hundred fps slower but a 30-06 still carries flatter and with more energy with the same 180g bullet used in 308 

yes you can techicaly load 308 to 62k psi and 30-06 to only 60k psi but 2k psi just can't make up for the difference in case capacity 

i will give you that 308 does it more efficiently using less powder 

308 will give 90% of the performance of 30-06 with a shorter cartridge that weighs less that uses less powder that soldiers can carry a few more of and actually replicating the very effective velocities of the older lower powered m2 ball that were loaded for the M1


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## tarbe

Pete

We're talking about 200 yard retained energy (responding to wogglebug's post). You must take into account the significant difference in ballistic coefficients between the 180gr Barnes TSX and your typical 220gr roundnose.


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## Shrek

30-06 has always been my center fire rifle caliber of choice and I have a few.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

tarbe said:


> Pete
> 
> We're talking about 200 yard retained energy (responding to wogglebug's post). You must take into account the significant difference in ballistic coefficients between the 180gr Barnes TSX and your typical 220gr roundnose.



I agreed that a 220 didn't carry the energy of a 180 , 180 is just a sweet spot for pressure velocity and weight to diameter 

if a 220 starts with less energy it wasn't going to find any on the way to the target it's only hope would be to not loose it as fast as the bullet it is compared to and bullets with a better ballistic coefficient are just going to fly better and retain more energy farther , round nose is not an efficient shape , not as bad as round ball but it's no spitzer 

but it doesn't matter what bullet you choose any bullet you can load in 308 brass you you can also get in 30-06 brass


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## simi-steading

I think I found my new favorite rifle this past weekend... I've always loved my 7mm Brazilian Mauser, but I took out my Sporterized 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser and ran a couple rounds through it this past weekend. It's the first time I've shot it since I got it... 

I was shooting a half gallon plastic jug filled with water from about 40 yards... Man did that thing blow apart when I hit it... Seemed to have a lot of energy... 

Not only was the gun balanced super nice, but the recoil on it made me realize it was an all day shooter.. 

While I really really enjoy shooting 30-06, the problem is, all the guns I've been able to shoot 06 through have been real shoulder pounders... That is part of why I really enjoy the 7mm Mauser round so much.. Since the 06 was designed from it, they are so close balistically, but you can shoot the 7mm all day, and not typically the 06... but this 6.5mm was a real dream, and I see it's also very highly reguarded by big game hunters..


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## tarbe

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> but it doesn't matter what bullet you choose any bullet you can load in 308 brass you you can also get in 30-06 brass


Sorry, but did you read the post in question? He's talking about a 220 grain roundnose at 200 yard from an '06. I am saying a 180 grain spitzer BT from a 308 will have higher terminal energy at 200 yards than any 220 grain roundnose from an '06. 

I know I am beating a dead horse here, but the devil is in the details.:catfight:


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

and a 180 gr spitzr bt will go even faster in 30-06

i was in the gun store last fall and a guy was having them order up some 200 gr or 220 gr 30-06 for a bear hunt , something about the guides saying less than a 200gr bullet from an 06 wasn't good enough for their bear 

I guess they thought very highly of their bear 

or more than likely follow the old school thought that heavier is always better or that if it isn't a magnum it couldn't be enough

thats ok the devil is in the detail and i will be the first to admit i have beaten the last devil out of a few dead horses.


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## tarbe

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> and a 180 gr spitzr bt will go even faster in 30-06


But...he wasn't talking about a 180 spitzer in the 06. He was talking about a 220 RN....at 200 yards.

And yeah, my experience says Barnes X bullets out-penetrate any other expanding bullet, given similar SD. Both weight retention and smaller frontal (expanded) cross-section are in play.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

your right , I didn't read it as well as i should have 

i just wanted to make sure that a claim of 308's power over 30-06 for kinetic energy can only be made if the 06 isn't pushing the same bullet.


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## tarbe

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> your right , I didn't read it as well as i should have
> 
> i just wanted to make sure that a claim of 308's power over 30-06 for kinetic energy can only be made if the 06 isn't pushing the same bullet.


Agreed. That is why I said "When it comes to splitting hairs between the 308 and 30-06, bullet selection will often make more difference than the *extra 100 to 200 fps that you can squeeze out of the '06 at the muzzle*".

The ready substitutes for cubic inches are chamber pressure and barrel length and there is only so much you can do with either. All else being equal, the '06 will always beat the 308 at the muzzle. Start messing with ballistic coefficients and the downrange differences can change on you.

Did I mention the 30-06 is never a mistake? :thumb:


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## BACOG

One of my all time favorite rounds is the 270 Win. This may get me tarred and feathered but I never much cared for the .30/06 in a rifle. I have owned one and hunted with another. I have no problem with the killing power of it. It is a good round but for me it is just too much plain Jane vanilla when I am more of a Rocky Road type of guy. 

Now for me the '06 in a pistol is a different story. I have one in a T/C Encore and it hits like a sledge hammer on deer. I took a little muley buck @ about 125 yards with it. I put a Nosler 150 BT right behind his left shoulder and it was lights out. If I get my moose permit this year I will be using the Encore.


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## tarbe

BACOG: Your post reminds me of my own biases...

I always used to consider the 30-30 light for deer (I don't anymore...this was decades ago), but I was more than happy to hunt and kill deer with a 357 Herrett in my Contender.

As a pistol round, the Herrett in the Contender was the cat's meow in the 80's, but we all know the energy it develops from a 10" barrel is less than that from a 30-30 out of a rifle! 

Oh well, we all evolve....if we live long enough!


Tim


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## simi-steading

ooooohhhhh.. I've always wanted an Encore with a 30-06 barrel... I think one of those would be a blast to enjoy plinking with


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## BACOG

simi-steading said:


> ooooohhhhh.. I've always wanted an Encore with a 30-06 barrel... I think one of those would be a blast to enjoy plinking with


They are a blast - literally. 

I still have a few milsurp tracer rounds from back when I had my '06 rifle. I think you know the next verse of this song. I waited until after dark one night & fired off a couple with the Encore. Yeah it was fun.


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## simi-steading

I've had a few tracers in my time.. I think I MIGHT have some still laying around somewhere.. those are always a good time... 

I love a big recoil in a handgun, so that's a part of why I'd love the 06 in a handgun..


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

I wanted , and some day may get a 30-30 pistol with a 14 inch barrel , we can hunt with a pistol but not a rifle in shotgun only areas , no matter what the pistol is chambered in 
I am more likely to shoot it with cast bullets and my light loads most of the time , that would be why i like 30-30 , but make up some hunting rounds , it's my understanding that if you put a 130gr spitzer in a 30-30 it makes for a very potent round also , it would be something to try

TC isn't making the 30-06 barrel any more but i know there are sources for custom G2 barrels


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## BACOG

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I wanted , and some day may get a 30-30 pistol with a 14 inch barrel , we can hunt with a pistol but not a rifle in shotgun only areas , no matter what the pistol is chambered in
> I am more likely to shoot it with cast bullets and my light loads most of the time , that would be why i like 30-30 , but make up some hunting rounds , it's my understanding that if you put a 130gr spitzer in a 30-30 it makes for a very potent round also , it would be something to try
> 
> TC isn't making the 30-06 barrel any more but i know there are sources for custom G2 barrels


I think you will like the .30-30 on the Contender frame. A good bullet to use is the 150 gr Nosler Balistic Tip. I do not like the BT's in a rifle because at rifle velocities they have given me too violent of expansion. At pistol velocities I love them. I believe I have some data for using Bluedot Shotgun powder in the .30-30 I will share if you like. I have used Bluedot in my '06 and it makes a great light plinking load.

I don't feel too comfortable with a custom '06 on the G2 frame. If I am not mistaken that is just an updated Contender.

E Arthur Brown still has blued steel .30-06 barrels available for the Encore. You can see them here. http://www.eabco.com/store/thompson-center-arms/tc-encore-blue-pistol-barrels-15-all-chambers/


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## swinters

I agree on the 30-06 never being a mistake. Obviously it has a lot to do with what and where you're hunting, too. I started hunting with a 30-30 when I was 12 years old and really learned to track well, especially when hunting where I was taking longer shots like in central and eastern Oregon and eastern Washington. My next gun was a .270 and that was a great, versatile deer gun, flat shooting, great velocity at a distance and generally dropped a deer in it's tracks. Then I tried it with elk and went back to tracking like I did with the 30-30, so bought a 30-06 in '69 and was sold. I've tried a bunch of different rifles but bottom line, I still hunt with the same '69 vintage Browning Automatic. I bought my wife a .243W about 30 years ago and still use it when hunting in the brush of Western Washington & Western Oregon and for shooting coyotes coming after my chickens. Like the 30-30 it's a great brush gun where you're only doing 75-100 yard shots, so I put a Leupold 2x7 on it and hunt on 2x. Probably would be just as well off with the same peep sites as on my old 30-30, which I taught my son to hunt with and will teach my grandson with starting this fall.


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