# Most Profitable Farm Animal



## thestartupman

In your opinion, what is the most profitable farm animal you can have on a farm? How do you market it? How does it make you a profit?


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## Sherry in Iowa

From our experience it would be meat goats. We use a boer buck and dairy cross does. We sell at 2-3 months old. No grain (except for lactating mommas). We don't have a regime of worming and vaccinations. We single animal treat for worms, etc. We switched bucks to get better feet on future does. 

We give them browze, hay, loose minerals and water. The 2-3 month old kids are only on momma and browze/hay. They pay us $2.00 a pound. 

Cattle-Too much hay. Too many tests and stuff to accommodate associations. Takes a couple of years to sell as meat. Drought makes it tougher to keep cost down.

Chickens/Eggs-Feed is too expensive. We do keep chickens for our own use, but quit raising for others.

This is just our experience mind you.


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## poorboy

Just one...furnish family with milk, butter, fertilizer for garden and a calf to pay for feed and upkeep..:goodjob:


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## pancho

Used to be the hog. They were know as the mortgage lifter.
Don't know about now.


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## PaulNKS

Sherry in Iowa said:


> Cattle-Too much hay. Too many tests and stuff to accommodate associations. Takes a couple of years to sell as meat. Drought makes it tougher to keep cost down.


With cattle, there are no more tests and "stuff" than there are with goats. Actually, there are less tests and requirements.

Cattle are still the biggest money maker on farms. Like with any animal, you have to be able to produce your own hay to make a good profit. As far as cattle eating too much hay, to produce the same revenue per acre with goats, you'll have just as much input costs, but a lot more labor.

Cattle have treated us well over the years. They've paid for 4 of the 5 farms we own. 

I will also add that we have 40 goats and will be expanding that this year. They are meat goats.

We produce all of our own hay and we don't grain. The only animals I grain are the does that I milk for home use. When I wean kids, I give them Purina Goat Grower. Otherwise, no grain for the animals. They have to be able to hold their own with the pastures and then with hay in the winter.


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## KrisD

I say Polypay sheep. They are year round breeders, have multiples regularly and can easily be breed twice year with no ill effects. They are a heavy breed and are used for meat, milk and wool. They are also docile. If I could find more I would definitely have some again. Mine could easily live off my lawn alone.


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## thestartupman

I like all the input, and ideas. It is great to hear the arguments for and against each animal. Its nice to hear some of the details on how you remain profitable. I like the ideas about how a milk cow is profitable in that it saves purchasing from stores. Keep up the ideas.


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## Dusky Beauty

Different breeds of cows have different needs and perform differently. I have heard people say a dairy cow was a big stupid beast that ate them out of house and home (this person had a holstein dairy farm reject), and also seen it said that their dairy cow was the best creature they had for thrift and that person owned a dexter. 

I own a pregnant belmont (thats a dexter/jersey cross meant to be a more dairy type dexter) so I can't say what the milk or meat is like from experience, but I DO know she stays fat and sassy (overweight even) on very little feed. She probably costs me less to feed than my ducks and geese. 

I paid twice the price of a dairy jersey for her just because of her smaller size and lesser food consumption and thus far I'm pleased. There seems to be quite a high demand niche market for dexter heifers and the steers are supposedly premium "mini cuts" of beef. My girl is also darn smart and dog gentle.


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## MikeC

I have some worms. The eat vegetable scraps, aerate my garden, provide soil enrichment, and provide a fine incentive when luring fish onto my line.

Can't say they'll make me rich, but they certainly don't cost me anything to maintain


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## Sherry in Iowa

PaulNKS said:


> With cattle, there are no more tests and "stuff" than there are with goats. Actually, there are less tests and requirements.
> 
> Cattle are still the biggest money maker on farms. Like with any animal, you have to be able to produce your own hay to make a good profit. As far as cattle eating too much hay, to produce the same revenue per acre with goats, you'll have just as much input costs, but a lot more labor.
> 
> Cattle have treated us well over the years. They've paid for 4 of the 5 farms we own.
> 
> I will also add that we have 40 goats and will be expanding that this year. They are meat goats.
> 
> We produce all of our own hay and we don't grain. The only animals I grain are the does that I milk for home use. When I wean kids, I give them Purina Goat Grower. Otherwise, no grain for the animals. They have to be able to hold their own with the pastures and then with hay in the winter.


The ability to make one's own hay is huge! For our small homestead..it's not feasible to make hay and still have pasture left. My reply was basically that of someone who does not have acres to hay and pasture with. Like I said..what I say is OUR example..if we had 80 acres..we would do things differently and maybe cattle would hold their own. And OUR experience is that we have to run tests on cattle (registered) that we do not run on goats (unregistered). It's an extra expense that is a deal breaker for US. 

I don't know how big a farm the startupman is talking about. It makes a big difference in what and how many animals you have on it.


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## PaulNKS

Sherry in Iowa said:


> The ability to make one's own hay is huge! For our small homestead..it's not feasible to make hay and still have pasture left. My reply was basically that of someone who does not have acres to hay and pasture with. Like I said..what I say is OUR example..if we had 80 acres..we would do things differently and maybe cattle would hold their own. And OUR experience is that we have to run tests on cattle (registered) that we do not run on goats (unregistered). It's an extra expense that is a deal breaker for US.
> 
> I don't know how big a farm the startupman is talking about. It makes a big difference in what and how many animals you have on it.


I agree. It does depend on the size of the farm. However, when speaking of unregistered goats versus registered cattle, that's apples and oranges. With neither being registered there are no tests, here. However, even with registered cattle, there are not always "tests" that are needed.

I guess the main question for the OP is how many acres are we discussing, where is it located, or what is available for grazing and browsing.

I will say that all things equal.. yes, you may buy more hay with cattle, but they also sell for a lot more and do carry a higher profit margin than goats.

When most people refer to raising cattle, they are usually referring to beef, not dairy... just fyi for the OP.


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## wildcat6

pancho said:


> Used to be the hog. They were know as the mortgage lifter.
> Don't know about now.


What did they used to sell for in your area. They just about give them away over here.


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## wildcat6

MikeC said:


> I have some worms. The eat vegetable scraps, aerate my garden, provide soil enrichment, and provide a fine incentive when luring fish onto my line.
> 
> Can't say they'll make me rich, but they certainly don't cost me anything to maintain


I can't disagree with you there. I have all of about $10 into mine over the last two years and that expense is just for the plastic tubs, lol...Their castings are probably the best fertilizer as well.


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## thestartupman

The question is put out there for the best animals on your property for the situation you are in. Yes it would be good to know how many acres each person is talking about, and how many of each gype of animal is working for you. It would be great to know what part of the country each person is talking about also.


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## MO_cows

Since cattle for beef are the most in demand, they should make the best income stream. Within that category are a lot of sub-categories. Cow/calf producer and sell at the nearest sale barn after weaning or market them yourself, cow/calf producer - keep calves til harvest age and market your beef yourself, raise dairy bottle calves and sell them or market the beef, run stockers, etc.

One way to get your feet wet with cattle is to get some weaned calves, graze some weight onto them, then re-sell them. That way you don't have to mess with breeding, calving, etc.


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## Heritagefarm

PaulNKS said:


> When most people refer to raising cattle, they are usually referring to beef, not dairy... just fyi for the OP.


Dairy animals are a good way to go deep in debt in my opinion. You don't make any money on it unless you run a large operation, in which case you need to get even larger since now you've just had to hire help because you can't milk 200 cows all by yourself. :shocked:
I'm with you, though. Cows are fairly low-maintenance and require very little attention, especially when compared to goats. They carry a much higher production unit price, i.e. 1000 pounds of meat versus 100 - 150 pounds on a goat. This makes it easier to expand.


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## texican

Imho, most farmer/ranchers who actually make real money on livestock, makes their money on volume. It's just as easy to raise a lot of animals as it is one or two.

If you have to buy feed, your not going to make any money, if your 'honest'... as in figuring in all your infrastructure, food, and vet costs. Most old timers will tell you your not raising beef (or goats) but grass (or forage). Buying hay negates any thought of profits.

I think most of 'us' aren't raising animals for profits, but so we can know what's in our animals... you cannot grow anything cheaper than storebought... but with storebought, you don't know if there's steroids, antibiotics, gmos (for folks that get spooky about 'it'), humane living conditions, etc....


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## pancho

wildcat6 said:


> What did they used to sell for in your area. They just about give them away over here.


Back years ago there wasn't any of the giant feed lots. A hog could be put out on the range, let them fatten up or have a litter, then gather and sell. Feed cost were zero, just a little labor catching them.
Things are different now. A farmer cannot compete with the big boys.


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## stockdogtta

For me it is sheep. I dont buy grain at all .... in fall when corn is out I use my dogs and let sheep scrounge for corn an hr or two 4 or 5 days a week for a month or so, depending on how I'm feelin, in the neighbors fields. I buy around 100 bales of hay just in case snow stays on ground for long times...usually have hay left in the spring...other wise they are on pasture and I do take them out grazing for a few hrs.. waterways, creek bottoms and such during real nice days in winter. I have 20/25 ewes and about 6 acres of actual pasture divided in 3 sections that I rotate. I dont wean the lambs and ship around 3 months..get around $1.75/2.00 per lb. Roughly $350 for hay/wormer/salt block. Would like to build up to 40/50 hair ewes.


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## oregon woodsmok

Honestly, it is very difficult to make any profit with any sort of live animal at all. Not if you really keep track of what your true production costs are.


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## PaulNKS

Our cattle have bought and paid for 4 of our 5 farms over the last 20 years. Anyone that says they don't make a profit can look at ours to see that they do make a profit and can make you a decent living.... if you know what you're doing.


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## Old Vet

If you have 150 acres or more you can raise cattle for a profit if you have 80 acres you can raise hogs for a profit. If you have 40 acres you can raise goats for profit. If you have 10 acres or so you can raise chickens for a profit. any thing else it will cost more than you make. I am sure somebody will say this is a lie but when you keep all of the expense and then add the profit you will be surprise to find out just what is and expense and what is profit. If you are taken about one animal there is none if you are talking about 100 animals then maybe. A milk cow comes close.


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## highlands

For us it is pigs. What is going to be best for other people though will vary with their climate, land, management style and other resources.

But there is more to it than just that. Our dogs, ducks and chickens are part of what makes the pigs work for us. We pasture using managed rotational grazing plus we get free whey from a local dairy. If I didn't have the whey I would start my own dairy. So really pigs, the pork they produce, is just the end product from a multi-species system.

Cheers,

-Walter Jeffries
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
ButcherShop | Sugar Mountain Farm


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## FarmboyBill

Well, Im sure glad somebody didnt mention rabbits. Only a fool would try to get enough to make money offa them.

oopps. That ment me I guess

Down here a milk cow sells for a 1/4 more than a beef cow at the same age. Guess thats cause theres a thousand more beef cows, than there is a dairy cow. people down here want milk, they break in a beef cow.


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## FreeRanger

texican said:


> Imho, most farmer/ranchers who actually make real money on livestock, makes their money on volume. It's just as easy to raise a lot of animals as it is one or two.
> 
> If you have to buy feed, your not going to make any money, if your 'honest'... as in figuring in all your infrastructure, food, and vet costs. Most old timers will tell you your not raising beef (or goats) but grass (or forage). Buying hay negates any thought of profits.
> 
> I think most of 'us' aren't raising animals for profits, but so we can know what's in our animals... you cannot grow anything cheaper than storebought... but with storebought, you don't know if there's steroids, antibiotics, gmos (for folks that get spooky about 'it'), humane living conditions, etc....


Texican is right on all of the above. If you can't grow enough hay for multiple animals to survive year round, then just grow hay. More further down. 

It's easier and more profitable to raise 2 unregistered Dexter cattle @800lbs on grass, than 16 commercial lambs @100lbs on the same grass. You only have to sell 3 sides of beef (and keep one side), instead of 12 lambs (and keep four). That's direct marketing to 3 families instead of 12 families. My personal experience....buy animals that have always been raised on grass alone, this usually means heritage breeds that are "un-improved" as I like to say, they are normal size, not super sized like you see at the fair.

So grow hay but not just any old hay like everyone else is growing. Here in dairyland all the local farmers grow 100% alfafa hay on large acres. I can't compete with them. However, I grow mostly grass hay (free of thistle and weeds) and make it into small squares. Market the small squares to horse owners and alpaca owners. They will pay a premium for good grass hay.


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## FreeRanger

If I had better perimeter fencing, I would make a go of a small herd of unregistered Dexter cattle on my 24 acres, rotationally grazing 9 months and feeding purchased large rounds of alfafa in the winter. At this point I don't have the fencing "installed" to do this. I may try Red Wattle pigs again, if the corn market stablizes, right now it's too up and down. Pigs are fun, Red Wattle pigs graze in the summer and eat hay in the winter. But to fatten pigglets you need a source of grain that is reasonable.


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## FarmboyBill

When dad farmed up in NE Kans. He and everybody else growed alfalfa for all to eat. Grandad had a field of Brome grass, and lespedesia, that was just a tiny sliver when I was around. I suppose these, for grandad only farmed with horses was his horse feed. Dad just fed alfalfa.


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## tinknal

Looking t return on investment in a short period of time hands down it's pigs. Say you have $500 to invest initially. You could buy 1 6 month heifer calf (maybe). You could breed her in 7-10 months for a calf around 18 months from now. In another 6 months you will have (if you are lucky) the replacement on your initial investment (not counting your 2 years of inputs).

Spend that same $500 on 2 6 month old gilts and you will have (with good management and some luck) nearly 40 hogs, (20 finished hogs and 20 weaners) and the approximate 10 gilts from the first litters will have produced around 90 additional pigs in one year. (again, not counting inputs, which will be considerably larger than the cattle inputs but with commensurately larger returns). I don't even want to try to calculate the second year.


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## farmmaid

I always tell people the most profitable animal on the farm is our great barn kitty.....Mandy! For us it is our Katahdin sheep.


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## plowjockey

Sawhorse. :runforhills:

Nothing, else, whith the huge increases in corn and hay, with dry pasture that looks like a parking lot.


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## ET1 SS

pancho said:


> Used to be the hog. They were know as the mortgage lifter. Don't know about now.


My grandfather used to say: "Raise a hog pay the mortgage"

In the '20s one hog each year was enough to pay the bank for a year.





PaulNKS said:


> With cattle, there are no more tests and "stuff" than there are with goats. Actually, there are less tests and requirements.


We do goats. There are no 'tests and requirements'. None that we have seen.



We do not have any pasture, but we do have 150 acres of forest. Goats and hogs both do well in dense forest.

But I can not say if there is any 'profit' to it.


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## Alice In TX/MO

IF you market your goats as ordained by Big Brother, they all must be ear tagged for scrapies, aka government tracking. If you sell a goat to a neighbor, it's supposed to be either tattooed (registered with papers) or ear tagged.

Most folks don't know and don't bother.


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## Plowpoint

For me it has been sheep.

I decided when I took over the farm in 2008 that I would not put any of my own money into the sheep and see what happened. I started with $600 dollars in 2008, and in four years I actually made a profit. Granted it was not a lot, but it was profit, and yes I keep incredible records.

Seeing that, I finally started to invest my own money in the farm and certainly will invest money in the future. I am NOT saying sheep are the magic livestock to get into for everyone, but they have been for me, but then again I spent 10 months researching sheep and other farm possibilities before I made a move. That patience and research has paid off.


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## ET1 SS

Alice In TX/MO said:


> IF you market your goats as ordained by Big Brother, they all must be ear tagged for scrapies, aka government tracking. If you sell a goat to a neighbor, it's supposed to be either tattooed (registered with papers) or ear tagged.
> 
> Most folks don't know and don't bother.


I see.

There was a Federal program that was going to require that, and our state setup to do that for a while. But they never got funding. Then they shut it down.

They were ear tagging each goat / sheep, each time it went to auction. But they never did have a database to log the animals into or look them up in. I saw goats with three and four ear tags, one from each time it had been to auction. Fortunately they stopped that junk here.

On a fairly regular basis 'buyers' come through our area buying all extra goats to haul them down South to Boston for chevron markets in that region. They do not bother with ear tags.

At some of our Farmer's Markets there are vendors who sell chevron and lamb; most of that has the butcher's meat inspection stamp on it.


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## Plowpoint

I think you both are getting the now defunct NAIS (National Animal Identification System) mixed up and interchanged with; the Scrapie Program, which is still in operation.

NAIS was mandatory, and the Scrapie Program is voluntary.


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## FarmboyBill

Tink, Id rather bank on a calf makeing it than I would a baby pig in a litter. My brother is a cattle man and knows his cows pretty well. My uncle Milt was a hog man, and knew his hogs real well. I doubt if either could switch and be as good at what they were doing. For someone just decideing to get 3 gilts, and bring in a boar or 2 (I always bought 2 different breed boars, so I could see which one worked best./ Sides, with one boar, he goes to work on his time. With 2, theres competition, They both get with it and git er done.) My bro started out with hogs. Now he says, even at his age you couldnt outrun him to give him a hog.


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## FarmboyBill

If one hog payed off the bank for a year, They were smart enough not to owe the bank much. The folks bought the home place in 42 or so. The yearly payment was $500. $300 of that was interest. It woulda took a buncha hogs to met that. Dad paid that until 76 or so. The purchase price of the 120 was $6000 I think.


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## FarmboyBill

And at that, he didnt pay iut out. His sister died and left him enough to close it out.


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## tinknal

FarmBoyBill said:


> Tink, Id rather bank on a calf makeing it than I would a baby pig in a litter.


Would you rather bet against 80 out of 90 hogs "makeing" it,,,,,,,,


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## ET1 SS

FarmBoyBill said:


> If one hog payed off the bank for a year, They were smart enough not to owe the bank much. The folks bought the home place in 42 or so. The yearly payment was $500. $300 of that was interest. It woulda took a buncha hogs to met that. Dad paid that until 76 or so. The purchase price of the 120 was $6000 I think.



$500 was a lot of money back when my grandfather was farming. I think that was the cut-off for paying income taxes too, only the uber-wealthy had to pay income taxes in those days.

My grandfather was farming his land from about 1910 to 1929.


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## FarmboyBill

No tink. Id hope most would make it. BUT I know that out of any givin litter, with most people who havnt been around hogs all their life or near it are going to have some losses with nearly each litter. At least for awhile, and loseing pigs can break u on a litter.

Id say 90% of a givin herd of cows will save their calves. Id hate to, but ill say it, that 90% of all pigs born from a sow might make it. Theres a difference there somehow.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Scrapie tags required where I live. It may vary by state.

I cross state lines with goats, too, and they must be tattooed or tagged.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/animals/animal_import/animal_imports_states.shtml


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## Alice In TX/MO

Missouri requires scrapies tags:
All goats (including exotic goats), regardless of age or gender, must be individually identified by official scrapie identification as defined in Title 9, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 79, published annually in January, herein incorporated by reference and made a part of this rule, as published by the United States Superintendent of Documents, 732 N Capital Street NW, Washington, DC 20402-0001, phone: toll free (866) 512-1800, DC area (202) 512-1800, website: GPO U.S. Government Bookstore: Main Page, or any other means approved by the state veterinarian identifying them to the herd-of-origin. This rule does not incorporate any subsequent amendments or additions.
No tests or Certificate of Veterinary Inspections is required.

*Mandatory in Maine* (the OP's state):
http://www.maine.gov/agriculture/ah...pie-Tag-Initial-Order-Follow-Up-Letter-ME.pdf


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## Cabin Fever

The most profitable critter - with the least of inputs and handling - are leeches.

Jumbo leeches go for about $12/pound around here. Can anyone beat that?


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## coolrunnin

FarmBoyBill said:


> If one hog payed off the bank for a year, They were smart enough not to owe the bank much. The folks bought the home place in 42 or so. The yearly payment was $500. $300 of that was interest. It woulda took a buncha hogs to met that. Dad paid that until 76 or so. The purchase price of the 120 was $6000 I think.



He must have renewed that note several times, your figures dont compute. But yes even back in those days one pig wouldnt make the mortgage.


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## farmerDale

Growing most of our own feed, and always having spilled grain, screenings, or bin sweepings, or mixed grains, etc., for us the most profitable on a per acre basis, would be any kid of poultry. Ducks, broilers, turkeys, laying hens. When it only cost you 80 cents a dozen to grow eggs worth 3 bucks, a dollar a pound to raise ducks or broilers, where the ducks sell for 5 and the chickens sell for 3 as free rangers, it is clear. But, pigs would be right in there, and if your land is cheap like it is here, sheep have been VERY good to the farmers. Cattle are about half as profitable as sheep "here". depends how you raise them. If you raise sheep like wooly pigs, treat them like wooly pigs, IE housed indoors and not out on grass, the profits decline.

Having hayland, machinery, feed grains, grainland, and good pasture, at an economical purchase price, and you can make almost any critter profitable. 

But to some, a farm is anything over say 5 acres, but you are very limited on those acres. When you get talking 320 acres minimum, then there is hope of raising all the feed for a reasonable number of animals, that can be hoped for to turn a profit. I guess it depends on what is meant by profit? Profit as in thirty six cents, or profit as in 36 000 bucks???


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## ryanthomas

I've lost money on nearly every living investment I've ever had, but sheep seemed to come out on top for me when I consider fencing, feed, my time, pain-in-the-butt factor, etc. Horses have made me money, but that's not something most people should expect to do.


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## TxGypsy

Honey bees! 

Not only are they profitable, but they harvest your neighbors nectar. You don't need acreage to have bees. You can locate hives on other peoples property and sometimes they will even pay you to do so. You can take a vacation without needing to hire someone to come feed and water them. They are so adaptable that you can raise them anywhere from the desert to a rain forest. Everything they produce(honey, pollen, wax, more bees) is a high profit product.


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## lmrose

For us and our life-style goats have proved the most profitable. We have less than ten acres for the house, barn, pastures , hay fields and gardens. Right now the pasture is feeding two horses , three doe goats and five kids. We will winter three goats . We put up enough hay for three goats and one horse. The other horse is here for the summer. The rest of the goats will be sold for meat for which we get $3 a lb. by the side.

The only grain we feed is a handful while the goats are being mlked. We also have a dozen hens and only buy a little laying mash. The horse and goats eat pasture Spring to Fall,hay and mangels and turnips in the winter. Any sales of meat or eggs is mostly profit.


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## Plowpoint

Hey, do you know why no one said Ducks?


Too many Bills! (get it, too many *BILLS*!)


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## romysbaskets

I think the property size has a lot to do with the answer to your question. For a small property, it will be a smaller animal I am sure. You have to be able to feed the animals from your own land for maximum savings... 

I grew up staying on a large acreage of 360 acres every summer...it was my Grandparents that had Sheep, Cattle, Goats, Pigs, Ducks and Chickens.... I would not count the ponies and horses as they were not money makers. They grew wheat, alfalfa and hay...their animals were fed from their own land only.... As they grew older, they kept that which they made the most money from...it was Cattle.  That one milk cow is all they kept with hundreds of Cattle..it was for their own use. They sold off Cattle for others to breed and for meat every year. They bought their property with the proceeds from a Cattle farm in California...


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## clovis

As an interesting side note, I bought a box of old books at an auction. Inside that box were the accounting books for a new start up farm in the 1930's.

They started with chickens, and stayed with them as their primary income for many years. It was kind of amazing how much wealth that family gained over time. The family later got into hogs and cattle.

I asked an old timer about the chickens, and he said that chickens were so easy to raise, that they had inexpensive start up costs, and that chickens grow so fast. In essence, a fully grown chicken is ready for slaughter in what, 5 weeks, these days? 

Simply said, a good chicken operation, in yesteryear, could be started for just chicken scratch (pun intended), and a profit turned in 5 weeks, and continued throughout the year. Those folks were turning their money every 5 weeks during the year, whereas, cattle, just one time a year, right? The investment in cattle is much higher as well.

I'm certainly no expert...but it is fascinating to read those accounting books and see how well they did, growing year after year.

Too bad that the chicken market has changed so much. Aside from homesteading set, does anyone in mainstream America buy live chickens and slaughter them, or buy fresh whole chickens? Seems that the big players dominate the market, and consumers are used to buying pre-cooked chicken nuggets, in a plastic bag, found in the freezer aisle.


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## boiledfrog

Cabin Fever said:


> The most profitable critter - with the least of inputs and handling - are leeches.
> 
> Jumbo leeches go for about $12/pound around here. Can anyone beat that?


Not sure what we get for leeches. We keep sending them to Washington DC and then they send us a bill!


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## PaulNKS

clovis said:


> As an interesting side note, I bought a box of old books at an auction. Inside that box were the accounting books for a new start up farm in the 1930's.
> 
> They started with chickens, and stayed with them as their primary income for many years. It was kind of amazing how much wealth that family gained over time. The family later got into hogs and cattle.
> 
> I asked an old timer about the chickens, and he said that chickens were so easy to raise, that they had inexpensive start up costs, and that chickens grow so fast. In essence, a fully grown chicken is ready for slaughter in what, 5 weeks, these days?
> 
> Simply said, a good chicken operation, in yesteryear, could be started for just chicken scratch (pun intended), and a profit turned in 5 weeks, and continued throughout the year. Those folks were turning their money every 5 weeks during the year, whereas, cattle, just one time a year, right? The investment in cattle is much higher as well.
> 
> I'm certainly no expert...but it is fascinating to read those accounting books and see how well they did, growing year after year.
> 
> Too bad that the chicken market has changed so much. Aside from homesteading set, does anyone in mainstream America buy live chickens and slaughter them, or buy fresh whole chickens? Seems that the big players dominate the market, and consumers are used to buying pre-cooked chicken nuggets, in a plastic bag, found in the freezer aisle.


Your numbers are a bit skewed. You can't get a chicken to full size in 5 weeks. Even the fastest growing Cornish Cross take 8 weeks. Most other breeds take longer.

The problem with chickens is that at that time in history, everyone bought fresh chicken and fresh eggs, or the local market bought local eggs to resell. So, there was a demand for meat and eggs.

Today, people buy high dollar feeds and laying mashes thinking chickens will starve and they can't make a profit that way. 

My chickens never get feed, except a bit in the winter. They follow the goats and cows and clean through the manure piles. They also scrounge the used and piled up goat bedding and scratch through it for grubs and other bugs. If chickens are free ranged, you won't have a feed bill. 

Today, there just isn't much of a market for fresh chicken and eggs for most people to profit. 

You mention turning cattle only once a year. But, one calf, if sold at auction, you will get $800 to $900 per head. If raised right, most of that is profit. Our cattle are pastured year-round. Fed hay only in winter from what we produce. I can sell enough excess hay to pay for baling all our hay. We don't grain. If a cow can't keep weight (isn't an "easy keeper") she goes to town. So, yes, most of that money is profit.


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## HDRider

clovis said:


> As an interesting side note, I bought a box of old books at an auction. Inside that box were the accounting books for a new start up farm in the 1930's.
> 
> They started with chickens, and stayed with them as their primary income for many years. It was kind of amazing how much wealth that family gained over time. The family later got into hogs and cattle.
> 
> I asked an old timer about the chickens, and he said that chickens were so easy to raise, that they had inexpensive start up costs, and that chickens grow so fast. In essence, a fully grown chicken is ready for slaughter in what, 5 weeks, these days?
> 
> Simply said, a good chicken operation, in yesteryear, could be started for just chicken scratch (pun intended), and a profit turned in 5 weeks, and continued throughout the year. Those folks were turning their money every 5 weeks during the year, whereas, cattle, just one time a year, right? The investment in cattle is much higher as well.
> 
> I'm certainly no expert...but it is fascinating to read those accounting books and see how well they did, growing year after year.
> 
> Too bad that the chicken market has changed so much. Aside from homesteading set, does anyone in mainstream America buy live chickens and slaughter them, or buy fresh whole chickens? Seems that the big players dominate the market, and consumers are used to buying pre-cooked chicken nuggets, in a plastic bag, found in the freezer aisle.


This is a perfect example how 1,000s of people made a decent living doing something, where today a few dozen people (corporate officers) make a fortune by turning it into a mega-industry with a Wal-Mart like retailer. Then and Now.

This is how wealth has become more concentrated, and how things have changed.


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## pancho

clovis said:


> As an interesting side note, I bought a box of old books at an auction. Inside that box were the accounting books for a new start up farm in the 1930's.
> 
> They started with chickens, and stayed with them as their primary income for many years. It was kind of amazing how much wealth that family gained over time. The family later got into hogs and cattle.
> 
> I asked an old timer about the chickens, and he said that chickens were so easy to raise, that they had inexpensive start up costs, and that chickens grow so fast. In essence, a fully grown chicken is ready for slaughter in what, 5 weeks, these days?
> 
> Simply said, a good chicken operation, in yesteryear, could be started for just chicken scratch (pun intended), and a profit turned in 5 weeks, and continued throughout the year. Those folks were turning their money every 5 weeks during the year, whereas, cattle, just one time a year, right? The investment in cattle is much higher as well.
> 
> I'm certainly no expert...but it is fascinating to read those accounting books and see how well they did, growing year after year.
> 
> Too bad that the chicken market has changed so much. Aside from homesteading set, does anyone in mainstream America buy live chickens and slaughter them, or buy fresh whole chickens? Seems that the big players dominate the market, and consumers are used to buying pre-cooked chicken nuggets, in a plastic bag, found in the freezer aisle.


Back in the 1930s if you ate your chickens at 5 weeks old it would have been much better and cheaper just to kill a few sparrows. Chickens didn't get much larger than sparrows back then in 5 weeks and sure no one would pay money for one.


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## stanb999

The most profitable animal. Is the one you were out bid for at the auction.


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## Shrek

thestartupman said:


> In your opinion, what is the most profitable farm animal you can have on a farm? How do you market it? How does it make you a profit?


If a two race winner of the triple crown put out to pasture with tendonitis for stud service could be an option on the farm :shrug:


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## pancho

I found a few receipts of my fathers when he was farming.

Oct 24, 1961 he bought 14 hereford cows, 1 part brahma cow, 1 jersey milk cow, and 1 registered hereford bull. Total price. $2650.00, private sell. He also bought 7 hereford cows through the sale barm, total price of $721.00. One cow banged out and he ran her through again and she brought $10.20 cents more than he bought her for.

In 1962 he sold 17 calves off of these cows for a total of $1311.31. The highest bringing $97.06, the lowest bringing $45.

The same year he sold 32 pigs for a total of $249.23

In 1962 my father made a total of $1560.54 for the entire year of farming.


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## nc_mtn

FarmBoyBill said:


> Well, Im sure glad somebody didnt mention rabbits. Only a fool would try to get enough to make money offa them.
> 
> oopps. That ment me I guess


I don't know, I"ve done pretty good on rabbits. People are always trying give the cute little "my kids never pay attention to him" rabbits away. I can save them up for the auction and usually make a 100% profit. Lots of times, they give me cages and feed too....


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## tinknal

PaulNKS said:


> You mention turning cattle only once a year. But, one calf, if sold at auction, you will get $800 to $900 per head. If raised right, most of that is profit. Our cattle are pastured year-round. Fed hay only in winter from what we produce. I can sell enough excess hay to pay for baling all our hay. We don't grain. If a cow can't keep weight (isn't an "easy keeper") she goes to town. So, yes, most of that money is profit.


Hay and pasture are not "free". You need to calculate their value to access costs.


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## FarmboyBill

Seems hay and pasture would be a asset, not necessarily a cost.

Specially IF, as was said the hay makes enough to pay for the makeing of it. The pasture could be rented out or hayed also bringing in moiney.


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## tinknal

FarmBoyBill said:


> Seems hay and pasture would be a asset, not necessarily a cost.
> 
> Specially IF, as was said the hay makes enough to pay for the makeing of it. The pasture could be rented out or hayed also bringing in moiney.


That's my point. If you feed 2000 bales of hay that could be sold for $3 each then the cost of feed is $6000. The pasture could also be used to produce hay.


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## PaulNKS

tinknal said:


> Hay and pasture are not "free". You need to calculate their value to access costs.


Yes, and the value to access costs are zero for that. The excess hay sold pays for the hay baled that we keep. The previous calves paid for the land. So, the calves no longer owe us anything for the cost of the land. The taxes for this 160 are less than $500 per year and that is with a small house. It's all pasture and the calves had it paid off by 2007. The taxes on 90 acres of hay is less than $300 per year. 

So.. as I said, the sale from the calves today is mostly profit.


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## am1too

tinknal said:


> That's my point. If you feed 2000 bales of hay that could be sold for $3 each then the cost of feed is $6000. The pasture could also be used to produce hay.


Yes you have a valid point.

However if I'm setting at home doing nothing and need hay I have to buy it. So why not use my idle time to cause the hay to be put into my barn. Is watching tv that important? I laugh at people paying $60 to a hundred or more to watch tv and then pay $6,000 for the hay they could have without spending the $6,000. Do you understand just the tax problem. People wonder why they are broke. To get that $6,000 one has to work. Tax for a self employeed person is very clost to 50%. So if one does the work they made something close to $10 - 12,000 and paid no tax. We have even considered the cost to work or the hauling hay home.


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## oregon woodsmok

[[[[[[[........As an interesting side note, I bought a box of old books at an auction. Inside that box were the accounting books for a new start up farm in the 1930's.

They started with chickens, and stayed with them as their primary income for many years. It was kind of amazing how much wealth that family gained over time......]]]]]

Adjusted for inflation, eggs at that time sold for the equivalent of $12 a dozen in today's money. A roast chicken was an expensive luxury item, not cheap meat like it is today. It was a lot easier to make money with chickens at that time than it is today.


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## barnyardgal

Have not read all the post but seems to me weather will play into this also...spring time baby chicks,ducks,geese,turkeys & guineas sell real well especially at small animal auctions i have been to...sometimes rabbits do well...goats all spring/summer so far are bringing the most money per pound...

Also might depend on the area you are living in~~


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## Plowpoint

I think a lot of today's ag issues have to do with peoples pride.

People laughed when I started out with only 4 sheep, yet they want to know how I made a profit in 4 years without investing my own money into my farm after only four years. For some, the thought of starting small and building up is beyond them, and they want to go all out, get big numbers and do big things. Yet everyone I know that is large in size (and profitable) started out small and worked up.

I also think my success has been in having a plan from the onset. I spent 10 months making a farm plan before I added any animals, and everything I have done since then has been in accordance with that. Only when I deviated from the plan (and there has been many times I did that), did it not bode well for me. I encourage everyone getting into farming for profit to do a real farm plan, it really does give a small farmer direction.


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## Plowpoint

tinknal said:


> That's my point. If you feed 2000 bales of hay that could be sold for $3 each then the cost of feed is $6000. The pasture could also be used to produce hay.


This is very true, but at times things can get complex.

On my farm there is 100 acres of land split 50/50 with corn and hay ground used by my families large dairy farm. Other then grazing 3rd crop, and getting some feed for my own sheep, I let the farm take this hay and corn without pay even though I pay taxes on it ($10 per acre).

At first this seems silly...I am giving away good feed that I could sell as hay or corn silage.

Not really. Feed costs for most sheep producers is 60%, where as my feed costs are nothing. I do not have to buy equipment, fuel or have other expenses to get my winter feed for the year..incredibly good feed that would NOT be possible with cheap equipment and inferior technology. And because this farm co-farms with a major dairy operation, I am eligible for an incredible amount of grants and low interest loans. It takes a lot of communication with the dairy farm to ensure neither one of us encroaches upon the other, but in the end we have an incredibly productive farm. Almost every ag acre of this place is maximized. That is good for me and my sheep operation, the major dairy farm putting milk on a lot of Maine peoples tables, and to the American people.

Without the aid of a dairy operation and its economy of scale, I would not be profitable. Yeah I might make $6000 dollars in hay, but go broke doing it.

Farming is complex and requires a sharp pencil.


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## tinknal

PaulNKS said:


> Yes, and the value to access costs are zero for that. The excess hay sold pays for the hay baled that we keep. The previous calves paid for the land. So, the calves no longer owe us anything for the cost of the land. The taxes for this 160 are less than $500 per year and that is with a small house. It's all pasture and the calves had it paid off by 2007. The taxes on 90 acres of hay is less than $300 per year.
> 
> So.. as I said, the sale from the calves today is mostly profit.


I'm all for you raising cattle. Dang fine avocation. I'm just saying that the value of the feed fed to the cattle, regardless of it's costs, is part of the equation.


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## PrettyPaisley

TxMex said:


> Honey bees!
> 
> Not only are they profitable, but they harvest your neighbors nectar. You don't need acreage to have bees. You can locate hives on other peoples property and sometimes they will even pay you to do so. You can take a vacation without needing to hire someone to come feed and water them. They are so adaptable that you can raise them anywhere from the desert to a rain forest. Everything they produce(honey, pollen, wax, more bees) is a high profit product.


I wanted to put a few hives in but just the cost of the bee keeping supplies was enough to stop me in my tracks. How can you raise bees without breaking the bank on all the accoutrements?


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## Betho

Dusky Beauty said:


> Different breeds of cows have different needs and perform differently. I have heard people say a dairy cow was a big stupid beast that ate them out of house and home (this person had a holstein dairy farm reject), and also seen it said that their dairy cow was the best creature they had for thrift and that person owned a dexter.
> 
> I own a pregnant belmont (thats a dexter/jersey cross meant to be a more dairy type dexter) so I can't say what the milk or meat is like from experience, but I DO know she stays fat and sassy (overweight even) on very little feed. She probably costs me less to feed than my ducks and geese.
> 
> I paid twice the price of a dairy jersey for her just because of her smaller size and lesser food consumption and thus far I'm pleased. There seems to be quite a high demand niche market for dexter heifers and the steers are supposedly premium "mini cuts" of beef. My girl is also darn smart and dog gentle.


I fell in love with Dexters this summer - they seem so much more manageable and the farmer I met with said he figured he could keep one Dexter cow on 1-2 acres of grass. That's a far cry from what I'd heard from other people with the bigger milk cows... but 2gal/day is also much more manageable for us than 10-15.


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## Tiempo

Cabin Fever said:


> The most profitable critter - with the least of inputs and handling - are leeches.
> 
> Jumbo leeches go for about $12/pound around here. Can anyone beat that?


 Yep, rare breed exhibition poultry, $100 per dozen for eggs.


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## Chris.

PrettyPaisley said:


> I wanted to put a few hives in but just the cost of the bee keeping supplies was enough to stop me in my tracks. How can you raise bees without breaking the bank on all the accoutrements?



Well, if you get a hive going, it can make 100lbs of honey on average, and you can sell that for a profit off 5 bucks a pound after your bottle and lable. 500 dollars. Of course it all depends on weather, year, breed, and beekeeper ability, but isnt that the way it works with any form of ag?


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## PrettyPaisley

Chris. said:


> Well, if you get a hive going, it can make 100lbs of honey on average, and you can sell that for a profit off 5 bucks a pound after your bottle and lable. 500 dollars. Of course it all depends on weather, year, breed, and beekeeper ability, but isnt that the way it works with any form of ag?



Oooohhh...I guess I didn't know that bees made that much honey! I know it sells for a lot-I buy it local by the gallon and pay a pretty penny!


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## FarmboyBill

Ive got a picture of a farmer in the 30s looking at a black board at a feed store or general store of the pricesof eggs. [email protected] for small [email protected] for med, and a dime for large.

A candy bar that costs a nickle in 55 now costs [email protected] I dont know what that candy bar would have cost in the 30s.

A gal of gas cost round between 9 to [email protected] in the 30s. Ive paid [email protected] for a gal in the mid 60s. U know what it costs nowadays.


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## wildcat6

nc_mtn said:


> I don't know, I"ve done pretty good on rabbits. People are always trying give the cute little "my kids never pay attention to him" rabbits away. I can save them up for the auction and usually make a 100% profit. Lots of times, they give me cages and feed too....


Out of curiousity, whaty are rabbits selling for these days?


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## Plowpoint

My Great Uncle wrote a book and told what he was getting for some of his agricultural products. I was shocked to read that people were paying $1 for a dozen eggs in '49...1849 that is. You can get them for .87 cents today!! Considering the inflation or cost of living increases, we are either paying way too little today, or people were paying way too much in 1849. :shrug:


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## grandma12703

Plowpoint said:


> I think a lot of today's ag issues have to do with peoples pride.
> 
> People laughed when I started out with only 4 sheep, yet they want to know how I made a profit in 4 years without investing my own money into my farm after only four years. For some, the thought of starting small and building up is beyond them, and they want to go all out, get big numbers and do big things. Yet everyone I know that is large in size (and profitable) started out small and worked up.
> 
> I also think my success has been in having a plan from the onset. I spent 10 months making a farm plan before I added any animals, and everything I have done since then has been in accordance with that. Only when I deviated from the plan (and there has been many times I did that), did it not bode well for me. I encourage everyone getting into farming for profit to do a real farm plan, it really does give a small farmer direction.


Perfect in my opinion. Everyone wants to make a fast success of their farm but farming is not a get rich quick venture. 

I was told by a young man once not long ago that no one can start a small farm nowadays and make it work.....I don't buy into that. The difference is you have to realize that you won't have the new tractor, truck, pickup, thousands of head of animals, on and on and on until you earn it. Start like the old days and work as hard as they did and I believe it can happen.


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## ET1 SS

grandma12703 said:


> ... I was told by a young man once not long ago that no one can start a small farm nowadays and make it work ..... I don't buy into that. The difference is you have to realize that you won't have the new tractor, truck, pickup, thousands of head of animals, on and on and on until you earn it. Start like the old days and work as hard as they did and I believe it can happen.


New farms start up every year in this area.

1- The organic association networks between most organic farms and the Farmer's Markets; and oversees an informal 'apprenticeship' program. Hundreds of apprentices work on farms each year. Those who stay with the concept rotate between farms, and go on to their 'journeyman' program. Which then moves a farmer on to being a 'Farm Manager', and after a year doing that they commonly are able to maneuver things to get each journeyman onto their own farm.

I do not think that any of these new farmers start the process with more than two nickels to rub together.

2- I also see apprentices who decide to go it 'alone' and start farming without benefit of the association. Now I am just guessing here, but from those I see doing it around me, I estimate that state wide we must have dozens who do this each year.

3- Plus one friend of mine [Tom], starts a new farm, invites apprentices, any of them who stay for two years he encourages to form a formal partnership, and to buy him out. Once he can back away from one of these farms, then he goes out and starts another new farm.



Anyone who thinks that you can not start a new farm, is not firmly connected to reality.


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## oregon woodsmok

wildcat6 said:


> Out of curiousity, whaty are rabbits selling for these days?


As far as I can tell, they aren't selling. Darn difficult to even give them away.

I eat mine, and with the price of feed, they are not a cheap dinner. I like rabbit, though, so I raise them.


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## Jim S.

Ever look around and wonder why all the infrastructure in pastured livestock is cattle and not goats, even though goat is the most widely eaten meat in the world and the US does not produce enough to satisfy its own demand?

That's because cows make more money with less work and inputs, and that's why the whole pasture livestock world from farm to sale barn to slaughterhouse is built around them. And this is coming from a guy who has spent 22 years raising beef cattle and 21 years raising goats for the mass meat market. I sold the goat herd and goat equipment last year. I just could not justify all the inputs and the huge labor demands it took anymore. What a change in my lifestyle that made! Wow, I have free time now!

I love and miss goats, but they do not make money as a farmed meat animal when all costs are factored in. That is why so many goat operations are show kid or pet or breeding genetics-oriented. It is also why the typical goat herd is owned for just 3 years on average. To simply farm them like you do cows doesn't pay. I hate to say it, but I have 21 years of experience to prove it. 

We love goat meat. Our herd fed us for years. But it comes down to being easier and more profitable to raise cows and buy goats to slaughter and put in the freezer.

If you want profits, buy heifers and a young bull as cheap as you can at auction and start there. These are known by some as "mortgage lifters." Raise them up on grass, breed them and use some of the profits from selling the 6-month-old calves to buy better breeding stock as you go. This is a route many a farmer has taken, and in a decade, you will have fine animals and a good operation. 

A 600-pound calf here is almost $800 at the sale barn. It'd take 6 or more goat kids 6-8 months old to equal 1 calf (goat is about $1.50/lb now). So if you sell 10 calves, you'd need at least 60 kids to get the same gross payback. You'll have more inputs in the goats, and more labor cost, if my 21 years of experience counts for anything.


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## Jim S.

ET1 SS said:


> New farms start up every year in this area.
> 
> 1- The organic association networks between most organic farms and the Farmer's Markets; and oversees an informal 'apprenticeship' program. Hundreds of apprentices work on farms each year. Those who stay with the concept rotate between farms, and go on to their 'journeyman' program. Which then moves a farmer on to being a 'Farm Manager', and after a year doing that they commonly are able to maneuver things to get each journeyman onto their own farm.
> 
> I do not think that any of these new farmers start the process with more than two nickels to rub together.
> 
> 2- I also see apprentices who decide to go it 'alone' and start farming without benefit of the association. Now I am just guessing here, but from those I see doing it around me, I estimate that state wide we must have dozens who do this each year.
> 
> 3- Plus one friend of mine [Tom], starts a new farm, invites apprentices, any of them who stay for two years he encourages to form a formal partnership, and to buy him out. Once he can back away from one of these farms, then he goes out and starts another new farm.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who thinks that you can not start a new farm, is not firmly connected to reality.


It is very difficult to start or run a small farm (under 500 acres) and come out simply on profit vs. loss with farming as the sole occupation.

Livestock wise, as an example, it takes 80 calves at current prices to buy a new pickup. Not that you need a new pickup; I am using that as a reference point. That figure has just now gotten back to where it was in the go-go 80s relative to inflation. To return $25,000 in net profit for the farmhouse to live on, a body has to run 425 head of mama cows and have a 90% weaned calf crop for sale each year. That's hard work.

Subsistence farming is another matter entirely, and it is possible with the right stock and large gardens to provide most of the food consumed on the home place by just using grass as the basis for meat and fertilizer needs. But that's not what we are discussing here, I don't think.

For someone looking to start a farm to earn cash, small is not the way to go. The best way to go in that case is to crop farm by owning small acres and leasing the majority of the rest.

Of course, small farms can "farm the government" by claiming tax deductions and sheltering other cash income that way, as long as the auditor doesn't come calling someday. But beware the salespeople who tell you that you can make money on a small farm. Many a person has lost their life's savings that way. I've run my place on old equipment and used stuff for years, and I get it from the forced sales from the newbies who came with stars in their eyes and a Joel Salatin book in their hands.

About the prophets, ask yourself: If he's doing so well farming, why does he have to sell books and go on paid speaking tours and have people pay him to do "internship" chores on his farm? (I sure would like folks to pay me to do my farm chores!)

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but there are facts to consider in any hardnosed business decision, and farming is a low return on investment business, so you must be careful how you do it if you seek monetary profits and not just a hobby.


----------



## grandma12703

oregon woodsmok said:


> As far as I can tell, they aren't selling. Darn difficult to even give them away.
> 
> I eat mine, and with the price of feed, they are not a cheap dinner. I like rabbit, though, so I raise them.



At the little auction here we get between $8.00 and $15.00 for each rabbit. I think it is pretty good. Ours are NZW and we have even gotten up to $20.00 a few times.


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## homesteadforty

tinknal said:


> That's my point. If you feed 2000 bales of hay that could be sold for $3 each* then the cost of feed *is $6000. The pasture could also be used to produce hay.


Sorry to disagree, but $6000 would be the _value_ of the hay... not the cost.

The cost of a product is the amount spent to produce it. The value is what it's worth to whomever is using it.


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## FarmboyBill

I magine rabbit worth, like most other animals is different in different parts of the country. Im carrying around 75 to 100 right now, and CL dosnt do hardly a thing for me selling them. If I take them out to a huge sale first Sat of ea month, I have to pay 25% comm. Hardly nobody takes rabbits there, but therll be maybe 5 to 700 chickens.


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## ET1 SS

Jim S. said:


> It is very difficult to start or run a small farm (under 500 acres) and come out simply on profit vs. loss with farming as the sole occupation.


I certainly see a lot of people doing it.

Of course I also see many who hold a job in-town.





> ... For someone looking to start a farm to earn cash, small is not the way to go. The best way to go in that case is to crop farm by owning small acres and leasing the majority of the rest.


I sell produce in a Farmer's Market where I rub elbows with a number of other small food producers.

What I have been seeing is that 4 to 8 acres is about optimum for the beginner. It is about the best size to get going and step away from needing a job in town. While having enough profit potential to support either a family, or else a partnership of 3 to 4 adults.





> ... Of course, small farms can "farm the government" by claiming tax deductions and sheltering other cash income that way, as long as the auditor doesn't come calling someday. But beware the salespeople who tell you that you can make money on a small farm. Many a person has lost their life's savings that way. I've run my place on old equipment and used stuff for years, and I get it from the forced sales from the newbies who came with stars in their eyes and a Joel Salatin book in their hands.


There are scams in any business.

I am not familiar with Joel Salatin.





> ... About the prophets, ask yourself: If he's doing so well farming, why does he have to sell books and go on paid speaking tours and have people pay him to do "internship" chores on his farm? (I sure would like folks to pay me to do my farm chores!)


Are you talking about your Joel Salatin ?

I have no desire to google to see who your buddy is. From your description it sounds like he is running a scam.





> ... I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but there are facts to consider in any hardnosed business decision, and farming is a low return on investment business, so you must be careful how you do it if you seek monetary profits and not just a hobby.


I think that most of your 'harshness' is focused on your Joel Salatin.

From where I stand, small farms are popping up all around.


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## nc_mtn

WC - been a month almost 2 since I've been to the auction. I think around here at least, they sell better there in the spring. I would say an "average" price is around $5. It's not uncommon to see them bring closer to $10. I have seen some go for more, even up to $25 but that doesn't happen often. Usually the larger and more colored they are, the more they will bring. 

I know some people have issues with auction animals. I've never had a problem especially with rabbits. The only rabbit we lost soon after an auction was one that a guy gave me. I made the comment about how I didn't want to spend that much on one but I thought about getting the kids one. He said he had 2 that was hurt and gave me. It had happened on the way to the auction so he didn't sell them. I think the mother had died and they were almost too young to wean. One had his nose bit almost off by another buck. The other wasn't too strong looking. I didn't have any other rabbits here and they were free so I took them. The weak one died on the way home, the other with the messed up nose lived for several months before I sold him.


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## Plowpoint

Unfortunately, for the most part Jim S is correct, and my thoughts have mirrored his for many years.

I am not sure Joel Salatin is necessarily a scam, nor have I read any of his books, but I did read a book on a cattle farmer that was raising grass fed only beef and I quickly realized, while his method may work incredibly well for him, it would never work here in Maine. Yeah I have known people to winter graze in Maine...it was called a divorce and the person had no money to buy hay so he called it winter grazing while the rest of us called it starving his livestock!

I do differ in Jim S in that I do not think you can give a certain amount of acreage as the cut off point of a farm being sustainable or not. There is just too many variables between farms in soil quality, rain fall, micro climates and topography to say this amount of acreage works and this doesn't. But I do agree that leasing land makes far more sense then paying property taxes. On our big dairy farm WE HAVE TO LEASE, there is no way, with Maine's high property taxes, that we could own our own land entirely and successfully farm. No way.

But that farm is all supported by family members that work off the farm. The reason is simple, every household that draws an income off the farm also needs to have health insurance, and it is just too costly to do so off the farm's income. Instead wives (or husband's) draw an income off-farm and put their spouses and kids on that employers health insurance.

I understand the Middleman takes a big cut of the profit, but few farmers starting out realize that to get the Middleman's pay, they must do the Middleman's job. Myself, I have no motivation to babysit a parking lot all day just so I can sell my crops and call myself a farmer. I would rather spend my day on the farm doing what I do best, raising crops, and taking care of sheep and cows. For those that do, they pay a price for that.

As for farmers market type farms; here in Maine anyway, the standard figure is about $5000 per acre. The math is pretty easy, if you are targeting an income of $25,000 you should plan on putting in a 5 acre garden and so on. Here though, the Farmer Markets are everywhere and really saturated the market. It is hard to get into the more lucrative Farmer Markets since they are not letting in any more members. The days of having a few acres and making a living off it are just about over...at least here I think...but perhaps niche marketing will change that?


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## sandc

When we lived in Arkansas and had our little herd of dairy goats we were turning a decent profit with them. We could sell 100 gallons of milk a month on premise and we always had buyers for that 100 gallons at $6 a gallon. So that worked out to $600 a month. On top of that I was constantly making cheese for our use and some that I traded to others for veggies and berries. Also had a woman that would trade me milk for soap that she used the milk to produce. Plus we were able to sell any unwanted kids for a decent profit.

I'm not claiming the $600 was all profit as I don't have the books here in front of me to show where we were on feed costs and such, but we turned a profit each month they were in milk. There was a lot of time invested in them, and it all really started out as an experiment to see how we would like it. It took a while to find enough people to meet our 100 gallon a month limit in sales, and there was definitely a learning curve in it all. Luckily the pigs and chickens ate all the extra milk and bad experimental cheeses.

I am not suggesting that you try this route. You seriously need to look at how you want your livestock to produce money for you and how much of a time investment you are able to commit to the endeavor everyday. I would have never committed to dairy animals if I wasn't a stay at home dad at that time. Visit others in your area and try to see what works for them and try to identify any gaps that you think you might be able to fill with your livestock choice. You might be surprised at what you come up with.


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## sandc

PrettyPaisley-

There are plenty of books and articles out there for building most of the components for beekeeping. The best suggestion I can offer on it would be to contact your local extension office and see if they can hook you up with a local group.

Never buy used hives or hive components unless they come with the bees in them already. That is the first piece of advice offered to me by a keeper when I was loking into bees.


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## ET1 SS

Plowpoint said:


> ... I am not sure Joel Salatin is necessarily a scam, nor have I read any of his books, but I did read a book on a cattle farmer that was raising grass fed only beef and I quickly realized, while his method may work incredibly well for him, it would never work here in Maine. Yeah I have known people to winter graze in Maine ... it was called a divorce and the person had no money to buy hay so he called it winter grazing while the rest of us called it starving his livestock!


'Winter graze in Maine'?

LOL

The DOT had to shut-down I-95 for a week 2 years ago, after they had cut down bush in the median, because hundreds of deer had swarmed the area looking for winter graze. [I remember because my road was used for the detour]





> ... But that farm is all supported by family members that work off the farm. The reason is simple, every household that draws an income off the farm also needs to have health insurance, and it is just too costly to do so off the farm's income. Instead wives (or husband's) draw an income off-farm and put their spouses and kids on that employers health insurance.


I have my pension, so I know which side of the divide I stand on.

Though I do see some families who appear to be surviving without jobs. But health insurance is a big killer to those dreams.

How anyone can afford $1,400/month for insurance is beyond me.





> ... I have no motivation to babysit a parking lot all day just so I can sell my crops and call myself a farmer. I would rather spend my day on the farm doing what I do best, raising crops, and taking care of sheep and cows. For those that do, they pay a price for that.




I tried that too, a terrible way to blow a day. I shifted to Buyer's Clubs. A group of 30 families makes a group order, so you make one delivery/week and leave.

Much better than parking lot sitting.





> ... As for farmers market type farms; here in Maine anyway, the standard figure is about $5000 per acre. The math is pretty easy, if you are targeting an income of $25,000 you should plan on putting in a 5 acre garden and so on.


Sounds about right.





> ... Here though, the Farmer Markets are everywhere and really saturated the market. It is hard to get into the more lucrative Farmer Markets since they are not letting in any more members.


Surprised to see so many new FMs that started up this spring though.





> ... The days of having a few acres and making a living off it are just about over ... at least here I think ... but perhaps niche marketing will change that?


Could be.


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## highlands

We are a small farm and we get no subsidies. We earn our entire living from our farm. We have no off farm jobs. The farm pays the mortgage and all. We're for profit, not hobby. It can be done and is done by many families.

We have no interns, paid or unpaid. Our family does all the work. It is far more efficient that way as we've been doing it together for a long time so we understand what we're doing, our short hand talk, how to work with our animals, our working dogs, etc.

As to the cost of pasture, it is essentially zero. I don't like having neighbors close by. So I have a buffer zone between me and them. On this buffer zone I do forestry, grow plants and raise livestock. I can't hay that land so there is no opportunity cost of selling hay off those pastures - our land is way too steep and rocky to be rolling equipment down.

We do buy winter hay. Our ~300 pigs eat eat many tons of hay each winter plus some for bedding. I considered improving some of my flatter areas for hay but they're filled with trees and rocks. It would take a lot of work to convert them and then a lot to hay them. It is cheaper for me to buy hay and graze our land. Buying winter hay also brings in nutrients which improves our farm's soils. It also keeps another small part time farm and a half employed supplying us so that's good for the local economy.

For us, raising pigs on pasture works. For other people other animals or crops will work. If you have fertile flat lands then grains may be great. Lots of options. Lots of variations in resources. We also raise other animals and grow things like pumpkins as part of raising the pigs. It is a system where the output is the pigs. It is the pigs which we sell to earn cash. All the other animals and veggies are to help get the pigs to market.

We sell mostly wholesale to local stores and restaurants. We're well off the beaten path so it doesn't make sense for lots of people to come here and we don't like doing farmer's markets. My wife drives a ~400 mile delivery route each week to get our meat in stores and restaurants. In the time it would take to sit in a single farmer's market she can deliver to dozens of outlets. We value that the store keepers have a place for the customers to come with display space so we just have to deliver once a week. This works efficiently for us. Other people have other personalities and might want to make different choices.

Our biggest cost is the meat processing so we're building our own facility to handle that here on-farm. Vertical integration and Just-in-Time farming.

Cheers,

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont


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## tinknal

homesteadforty said:


> Sorry to disagree, but $6000 would be the _value_ of the hay... not the cost.
> 
> The cost of a product is the amount spent to produce it. The value is what it's worth to whomever is using it.


Once you convert the hay to feed it becomes a cost. Creative accounting is a fools game. You need to compare the value of the hay with the gain in beef.

If you had a million dollars worth of "free" hay and produced $100,000 worth of beef would you consider it profit?


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## cindy-e

highlands said:


> We are a small farm and we get no subsidies. We earn our entire living from our farm. We have no off farm jobs. The farm pays the mortgage and all. We're for profit, not hobby. It can be done and is done by many families.
> 
> We have no interns, paid or unpaid. Our family does all the work. It is far more efficient that way as we've been doing it together for a long time so we understand what we're doing, our short hand talk, how to work with our animals, our working dogs, etc.
> 
> As to the cost of pasture, it is essentially zero. I don't like having neighbors close by. So I have a buffer zone between me and them. On this buffer zone I do forestry, grow plants and raise livestock. I can't hay that land so there is no opportunity cost of selling hay off those pastures - our land is way too steep and rocky to be rolling equipment down.
> 
> We do buy winter hay. Our ~300 pigs eat eat many tons of hay each winter plus some for bedding. I considered improving some of my flatter areas for hay but they're filled with trees and rocks. It would take a lot of work to convert them and then a lot to hay them. It is cheaper for me to buy hay and graze our land. Buying winter hay also brings in nutrients which improves our farm's soils. It also keeps another small part time farm and a half employed supplying us so that's good for the local economy.
> 
> For us, raising pigs on pasture works. For other people other animals or crops will work. If you have fertile flat lands then grains may be great. Lots of options. Lots of variations in resources. We also raise other animals and grow things like pumpkins as part of raising the pigs. It is a system where the output is the pigs. It is the pigs which we sell to earn cash. All the other animals and veggies are to help get the pigs to market.
> 
> We sell mostly wholesale to local stores and restaurants. We're well off the beaten path so it doesn't make sense for lots of people to come here and we don't like doing farmer's markets. My wife drives a ~400 mile delivery route each week to get our meat in stores and restaurants. In the time it would take to sit in a single farmer's market she can deliver to dozens of outlets. We value that the store keepers have a place for the customers to come with display space so we just have to deliver once a week. This works efficiently for us. Other people have other personalities and might want to make different choices.
> 
> Our biggest cost is the meat processing so we're building our own facility to handle that here on-farm. Vertical integration and Just-in-Time farming.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> -Walter
> Sugar Mountain Farm
> in the mountains of Vermont


so, Walter, forgive the daft question, but the just in time part is that once you have the facility, you can process the meat when people need it and not have to have a lot on hand in the freezer hoping to sell it? Sorry, but I am learning a lot of new stuff... just want to make sure I am getting it. =0) I get the vertical integration part. Processing involves you in another layer of the distribution line of the pork. The just in time part... ?? That's pretty smart, man. That gives me some food for thought. 

Did I get it right?

Cindyc.


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## FarmboyBill

What kind of hay do you feed your hogs? Is that in a slop or dry? And you feed NO grain?


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## VERN in IL

Jim S. said:


> Ever look around and wonder why all the infrastructure in pastured livestock is cattle and not goats, even though goat is the most widely eaten meat in the world and the US does not produce enough to satisfy its own demand?
> 
> That's because cows make more money with less work and inputs, and that's why the whole pasture livestock world from farm to sale barn to slaughterhouse is built around them. And this is coming from a guy who has spent 22 years raising beef cattle and 21 years raising goats for the mass meat market. I sold the goat herd and goat equipment last year. I just could not justify all the inputs and the huge labor demands it took anymore. What a change in my lifestyle that made! Wow, I have free time now!
> 
> I love and miss goats, but they do not make money as a farmed meat animal when all costs are factored in. That is why so many goat operations are show kid or pet or breeding genetics-oriented. It is also why the typical goat herd is owned for just 3 years on average. To simply farm them like you do cows doesn't pay. I hate to say it, but I have 21 years of experience to prove it.
> 
> We love goat meat. Our herd fed us for years. But it comes down to being easier and more profitable to raise cows and buy goats to slaughter and put in the freezer.


I know of a co-worker that raises Goats on a "Goat Farm" IMO It's a tricky buisness and typically Goat meat sells high around the Jewish holidays, if they have a good spring they are able to get the Goats sold on Market BEFORE passover. Just not much demand for Goat meat.

There for a While Bison was a big deal, "bison steak, bison burgers, etc." was like a niche market, I don't think the prices are there anymore.


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## Jim S.

highlands said:


> We are a small farm and we get no subsidies. We earn our entire living from our farm. We have no off farm jobs. The farm pays the mortgage and all. We're for profit, not hobby. It can be done and is done by many families.
> 
> We have no interns, paid or unpaid. Our family does all the work. It is far more efficient that way as we've been doing it together for a long time so we understand what we're doing, our short hand talk, how to work with our animals, our working dogs, etc.
> 
> As to the cost of pasture, it is essentially zero. I don't like having neighbors close by. So I have a buffer zone between me and them. On this buffer zone I do forestry, grow plants and raise livestock. I can't hay that land so there is no opportunity cost of selling hay off those pastures - our land is way too steep and rocky to be rolling equipment down.
> 
> We do buy winter hay. Our ~300 pigs eat eat many tons of hay each winter plus some for bedding. I considered improving some of my flatter areas for hay but they're filled with trees and rocks. It would take a lot of work to convert them and then a lot to hay them. It is cheaper for me to buy hay and graze our land. Buying winter hay also brings in nutrients which improves our farm's soils. It also keeps another small part time farm and a half employed supplying us so that's good for the local economy.
> 
> For us, raising pigs on pasture works. For other people other animals or crops will work. If you have fertile flat lands then grains may be great. Lots of options. Lots of variations in resources. We also raise other animals and grow things like pumpkins as part of raising the pigs. It is a system where the output is the pigs. It is the pigs which we sell to earn cash. All the other animals and veggies are to help get the pigs to market.
> 
> We sell mostly wholesale to local stores and restaurants. We're well off the beaten path so it doesn't make sense for lots of people to come here and we don't like doing farmer's markets. My wife drives a ~400 mile delivery route each week to get our meat in stores and restaurants. In the time it would take to sit in a single farmer's market she can deliver to dozens of outlets. We value that the store keepers have a place for the customers to come with display space so we just have to deliver once a week. This works efficiently for us. Other people have other personalities and might want to make different choices.
> 
> Our biggest cost is the meat processing so we're building our own facility to handle that here on-farm. Vertical integration and Just-in-Time farming.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> -Walter
> Sugar Mountain Farm
> in the mountains of Vermont


With 300 pigs, you are closer to a medium sized operation than a small one. My FIL lived solely off his grassfed dairy farm for his entire life, raising his family there. He was the very first in Connecticut to throw away his plow and go all grass; the first in the state to use a pit silo and hay conditioner, too. A great upbringing for the kids, but everyone wore hand-me-downs that were patched on top of patches. Doing without was part of the "price paid" for living independently, and that was his main objective.

One other point: Even if you inherited your land, there is a cost to pasture, always. If nothing else, it is the money you have tied up in the land. There are many land millionaires around here who drive 25-year-old trucks, live in rundown houses and pinch their pennies. Their money is all in the land.

Your post illustrates what I am trying to say very well. You can't go out and get 5 or 10 acres and be self-sufficient. Many of the posts I see in this thread do not take into account a true cost of production including land costs, taxes, feed, labor, meds, etc. If you run that accounting on a small place, you'll see it's not as rosy as you may think. Ag is a great lifestyle but a low Return on Investment (ROI) endeavor, which is why it is so hard to keep junior on the farm.


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## Plowpoint

Here we call such people as "Land Rich and Money Poor." It is not unlikely to know many people with hundreds of acres who barely squeak out a living. Property taxes and the cost of living here really do many people in.

It is pretty easy to do the math, taxes here average about $10 per acre for undeveloped land, so if a person has 1600 acres of land, that is a $16,000 dollar tax bill every year. I already said that an acre of farm market food brings on average her $5000 per acre, and there is only so much one person can do. If that limit is 5 acres, then you will make $25,000 dollars, or which $16,000 must go to property taxes. I don't know of many people who can make a living on $9000 a year, which is why spouses work off-farm.

I have a neighbor who has 3200 acres of land, and yet him and his wife drive school bus in an effort to eek out a living. They do sell 300 acres worth of hay, but even then the cost of his property taxes, is $32,000 dollars which is debilitating. That is why Jim S is oh so right, you own a few hundred acres to get by and then lease the rest.


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## Plowpoint

If you take my neighbor, you can see that he has 3200 acres, of which 300 acres is in agricultural land, making the other 2900 acres forest.

Here the stocking rate is about 15 cords per acre, and a cord of wood is worth about 70 per cord since we have both hardwood and softwood trees. Rate of growth is only about 1/2 a cord per acre per year, so at most his 2900 acres would net him about $100,000 per year IF he harvested it at maximum yield and without calculating his costs of harvesting the wood. Just subtracting his property taxes my neighbor would be working extremely hard, harvesting about 40 cord per week just to make $68,000 per year.

I make more than that just working in a lolely ole shipyard, and that is without factoring what the poor guy would pay in equipment costs, diesel fuel costs and gas and oil for his chainsaws. It is why I laugh when people claim they save x amount of dollars on burning firewood, actually, if you truly figure your costs, firewood is the most expensive way to heat your home possible.

I once did the math on my own place and figured I make about $25 per acre on woodlot. With a real life assessment for my wood lot value, it was very easy to see that the more land I convert from forest into agriculture, the better.


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## phrogpharmer

Cabin Fever is right. Animals or plants raised for niche markets are by far the most profitable. 
Leeches at $12.00 a pound is peanuts. Medical leeches sell for as much as 100times that. 
There are dozens of different animals and plants that are being raised for staggering amounts by people with training and skills who have developed the culture techniques and the markets and then keep a low profile. Farmers are the biggest copy cats in the world.


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## pancho

Too many people try to find a niche animal and end up with a lot of useless yard ornaments.


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## phrogpharmer

Those who have a successful business supplying a specialized niche market love to hear the experts say "it can't be done" or "it takes too much work" or best of all "anyone who claims that they raise (insert species here) on their farm is a fraud" The successful niche supplier will never disagree with the experts and will never divulge details about their operation to anybody except the IRS. The only thing that really matters is that the checks from the customers are good.


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## Dusky Beauty

phrogpharmer said:


> Those who have a successful business supplying a specialized niche market love to hear the experts say "it can't be done" or "it takes too much work" or best of all "anyone who claims that they raise (insert species here) on their farm is a fraud" The successful niche supplier will never disagree with the experts and will never divulge details about their operation to anybody except the IRS. The only thing that really matters is that the checks from the customers are good.



Yep. A farmer with business savvy can certainly raise a niche "crop" and market it to a profit, and he or she sure isn't going to pass out a copy of he business plan to everyone. 
Heck, some farms specialize in luffa gourds to sell bath sponges. Some people still sell all the buffalo or yak they can raise. 
I agree that certain animals are pyramid schemes that eat-- but if you've got a passion, do the research, and have *A* market as an outlet, just about anything can be raised at a profit. 

I've seen pasture eggs as a profit (despite 99% of chicken keepers unable to beat the cost to feed with local prices). I've seen grass beef and pasture pork profitable operations too. I've seen fiber farms rake it in too. 
The laziest farmer I've ever seen though, was an "organic hay" farmer. He basically turned a water system on a field of bermuda brambles, harvested, and sold for 15$ a bale in the 90s. The hay was garbage full of weeds and thistles btw.


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## highlands

cindy-e said:


> {is} the just in time part is that once you have the facility, you can process the meat when people need it and not have to have a lot on hand in the freezer hoping to sell it?


Yes, exactly. We slaughter weekly and deliver to stores, restaurants and individuals right away. That way we have very little in the freezer. We deliver fresh. Inventory in the freezer isn't earning money. It costs less to store inventory out in the fields on the hoof and harvest as needed. 

We already have this Just-in-Time farming established and have been doing that for years. But right now my wife gets up at 2 am every week and drives down to Mass to deliver the livestock to the slaughterhouse and pickup the meat from last week's batch. Having our own slaughterhouse, butcher shop and smokehouse will eliminate this long drive as well as saving the cost which is about 36% to 50% of what we make on each pig (depending on smoking, sausage making, etc).




FarmBoyBill said:


> What kind of hay do you feed your hogs?


We feed primarily pasture (warm months) and then replace that in the winter with second cut hay that is wrapped round bales lightly fermented. The pigs eat about 400 lbs of hay each per winter. It varies by size, of course. Each sow also uses about 800 lbs over the course of a farrowing between her nest and eating. We also get some lower grade hay for bedding. They eat some of that but prefer the second cut wrapped hay as it is better quality.

We also feed about 1800 gallons of whey a day. That is mostly water but it has a little bit of lysine, an amino-acid they need for good growth. It also provides some calories and co-digests well with the pasture/hay. Dairy complements the pasture well.

We've sometimes raised them totally on pasture but the added dairy brings the growth rate to six months. On solely pasture it is about seven to eight months. We also grow pumpkins and such that are easy for us to produce and make for good fall forage when the pastures wane. See Pigs | Sugar Mountain Farm



FarmBoyBill said:


> Is that in a slop or dry? And you feed NO grain?


We buy no grain. We feed a small amount of bread from a local bakery which we use as a training tool to teach them to walk and load. Since they get so little it is highly appetitive. We get a small amount of boiled barley from a local brew pub. Again, see the link above.




Jim S. said:


> With 300 pigs, you are closer to a medium sized operation than a small one.


No, and size not an opinion issue either. There is a legal definition of 749 pigs over 50 lbs or 3,000 under 50 lbs being the upper limit for a small farm. We are far below that limit thus we are definitely a small farm.



Jim S. said:


> if you inherited your land, there is a cost to pasture


You make too many assumptions about things you don't know. I didn't inherit it. I bought and paid for it myself. Not to have pasture but to have a buffer between me and neighbors, as I explained. The land is there. Being able to do something with it has no additional cost to the land. If I just wanted pasture I would have bought a lot less. I do make use of what I bought, raising plants, animals and doing forestry, as mentioned. That is logical.



Jim S. said:


> If nothing else, it is the money you have tied up in the land.


That is the illogic of a banker type thinking and not logical. Where would you put the money? In the stock market and have it dwindle away? In a 401K and have it lose value? In the bank and have inflation eat it up? None of those are wise choices. Study history.

Putting it in land has definitely been the best move. My land value has gone way up from what I paid. If I had to raise money I could sell some, or more likely I would log a section which is a faster way to raise money that lets me keep the land. I farm trees. If you want to talk investments then land is the best. Of course, not just any land and I'm not talking houses which in some places crashed. Be wise.



Jim S. said:


> There are many land millionaires around here who drive 25-year-old trucks, live in rundown houses and pinch their pennies. Their money is all in the land.


Yes, precisely. That's me. I would rather be rich in land. I can live on the land. I can grow food on the land. I can cut trees for fuel. I can raise more than I need and sell the extra to pay taxes or buy things. I can't live on stocks and bonds - They're useless paper. I would have to have a lot more extra money to want to squander it on imaginary assets. I'll stick with _real_ estate.



Jim S. said:


> Your post illustrates what I am trying to say very well. You can't go out and get 5 or 10 acres and be self-sufficient.


Well, you're wrong, but you have the right to be wrong. I can do it. I am doing it. You sit there saying it can't be done but I do it. I know that I can use just four acres to produce everything we need. I've done that. I expanded what we were using to about 10 acres and was able to earn enough to pay all our costs. Then once I had the techniques down pat I grew our farm larger. We produce all we need. Don't confuse need with want. That's a classic mistake.



Jim S. said:


> Return on Investment (ROI) endeavor


That mentality is your problem. Classic Wall Street thinking.



Jim S. said:


> which is why it is so hard to keep junior on the farm.


Actually, our kids love it here and want to stay here farming. They love the lifestyle. They know it inside and out, from raising animals to the business side to the chemistry of metals and more. They're involved and a part of it.


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## Plowpoint

Chicken Farmers have gotten by on only a few acres of land for years here in Maine, we raised 75000 birds in a five story chicken house that encompassed about 1/2 of an acre. But what you can fit on an acre, and what you can morally and ethically raise within a given acreage is two different things.

You said you raised 300 pigs but never gave an acreage amount so it is impossible to do the math, but you can still follow my thinking on this.

Animals tend to poo out 85% of what they eat, and the land can only absorb so much of that. How much is dependent upon soil type, topography, minerals in the soil, etc. Only soil testing and manure testing can make that determination called a Comprehensive Nutrient Management Plan. They are expensive, but necessary.

As a rule, you can easily determine if you might be contaminating your soil with manure if you have to constantly import feed for your animals. This is especially true of grazing animals and rather hard to figure out in your case because you bring so much feed to your pigs. What a lot of small farmers and homesteaders do not realize is, they may be feedlots without even knowing it.

My neighbor for instance has one acre of land, with her home taking about 1/4 of it. On the 3/4 of an acre she pastures, she has 30 sheep and a donkey. That many sheep cannot sustainably graze the small amount of grass 3/4 of an acre grows, so she imports hay even in the summer. That means those sheep and donkey continue to poo. The soil cannot absorb that much tonnage of poo so she is essentially a feedlot that is contaminating her soil. It is especially disturbing because she is just uphill from a stream, and with 5, 11 and 4 inches of rain in the last three storms, all within two weeks...guess where that excess manure is going...into the stream.

In contrast, our 1200 cow dairy farm produces a lot of manure, but we have storage facilities and plenty of land to spread it out on. The same went for our chicken farm when it was in operation..plenty of land to disperse the manure, and even then it was monitored with soil testing. Few small farms and homesteaders have these storage facilities so just piling up the manure contaminates the ground.

I am not saying that you Highlands, are necessarily are polluting your own soil, as I said, I cannot do the math because I don't have all the data, nor should I. That is your moral and ethical obligation, but people, especially small farmers and homesteaders need to think of this issue before they start loading up their small acreages with a lot of animals especially if they do not have a impermeable surface in which to store manure, or have a place to spread it.

It is interesting to note that everything I am saying is biblical. In the Old Testament God commands the Israelite's to farm their ground for 6 years and to let the soil remain fallow in the 7th year. You can figure out why if you simply do the math. In those days, grazing animals was their mainstay for food and as such, those animals ate and pooed out 85% of what they consumed. That means the animals retained 15% of what the land produced. After 6 years the land had become nearly depleted of nutrients (15% times six equates to 90% depletion). So God commanded they let the soil rest. It would grow a crop in the 7th year, die on its own and compost back into the soil rejuvenating it.

Today even Christian Farmers such as myself are not bound by the Old Testament commandment because we use technology...in the form of manure spreaders and such...to replenish the lost nutrients through fertilizers and manure, something the Isrealite's could not do. But we do have an obligation to ensure we are not abusing the land that God has entrusted us with. That is a very high moral and ethical obligation that I take seriously and suggest others do as well.


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## arnie

On my homestead my big gentle brwn swiss milk cow providing all the milk cream and dariy products I can make her calf 1/2 angus goes to the butcher at 7-800#s at 10 months old for a years supply of great beef my dogs pig and I are shiny with health .I help run a tractor at hay time a few days in summer and set out big bales of it during the winter feeding her and a few head of stock cattle.
If you have pasture and hay cattle are the best income maker now that the prices for beef on the hoof are high .2 years ago when the prices were 1/3 of what they are now you had to be a sharp cattle man to come out on top angus always sell for more here .your feed cost where you live will determin your profit if you could get corn cheeper than I can hogs can make money raiseing only 1-2 at a time with leftovers from a friends fruit market skim milk and little bought feed they grow slower but provide good pork for us


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## highlands

Plowpoint said:


> You said you raised 300 pigs but never gave an acreage


Our livestock are rotationally grazed on 70 acres as I've mentioned before. We have a lot more acreage than that, we also do forestry as I've mentioned, and the forestry and fields are intimately linked together. It's a system.

The animals improve the soil. We used to have thin, nutrient pour soils. We now have sweeter, more neutral (better pH), highly acidic (thanks to Mid-West sourced acid rain) soil. Now after years of grazing it has improve fertility that supports a much greater variety of plant and animal life. It's been great watching the fields blossom over the years. 



Plowpoint said:


> This is especially true of grazing animals and rather hard to figure out in your case because you bring so much feed to your pigs.


No, most of their feed comes from our pastures. They consume from our pastures about eight months of the year plus they get beets, turnips, pumpkins, sunflowers and other foods grown on our pastures for additional months of the year. The primary outside source of feed is winter hay which is about 400 pounds per pig on average, as mentioned before.



Plowpoint said:


> What a lot of small farmers and homesteaders do not realize is, they may be feedlots without even knowing it.


No, are not feedlots and I am keenly aware of the difference. I have a cousin who has a factory farm. I've seen feedlots.

We are doing managed rotational grazing on pastures that are full of forage plants. It's about as far from feedlot as you can get. Go see my blog. Lush plant growth out in the fields for the animals. That's how we keep our feed bill down. We grow the food for our animals so we don't have to buy feed other than winter hay. I could grow winter hay but it is cheap enough at this point and our soils are rocky and steep enough that is is easier to buy winter hay than to get fields hay ready, buy the equipment, etc. That doesn't change the fields as grazing and that most of what we feed comes from our own fields, gathered by the animals - I don't bring them breakfast in bed.



Plowpoint said:


> My neighbor for instance has one acre of land, with her home taking about 1/4 of it. On the 3/4 of an acre she pastures, she has 30 sheep and a donkey. That many sheep cannot sustainably graze the small amount of grass 3/4 of an acre grows, so she imports hay even in the summer.


Not comparable. That's city compared to us. We have a lot more land and our house is a lot smaller at 252 sq-ft which is 0.0063 acres, not 0.25 acres like you cite. We have no lawn. To stick to comparable situations.



Plowpoint said:


> That means those sheep and donkey continue to poo. The soil cannot absorb that much tonnage of poo so she is essentially a feedlot that is contaminating her soil.


She may be imbalanced but that has nothing to do with us, or most people. In our case we have plenty of land per animal so they are working to improve the quality of the land, not overload it. We then use that fertility to grow more food. Based on your comment below, I suspect we have more land per animal unit than you do.

Really, please, do go read the thousands of articles I've written about it. They're free and will clear up your miss-understandings rather than my repeating everything here. I farm during the day, I write in the evening to relax. I charge nothing for it. I just share. It's free. Enjoy. (No, I don't do seminars, workshops, farm tours or other gatherings either. Not my way.)



Plowpoint said:


> In contrast, our 1200 cow dairy farm produces a lot of manure, but we have storage facilities and plenty of land to spread it out on.


Since you're asking these sorts of questions: How many acres do you spread it on?

We have a rather different way. Rather than us spreading the manure what we do is have our livestock spread it. This eliminates the use of a tractor, my time, fuel, etc. I find it more efficient. But then I don't keep my animals indoors. If you're keeping your 1,200 dairy cows inside then, understandably, you have a need to mechanize the spreading. Different style.

By the way, 1 dairy cow = 4 finisher pigs in standard animal units so your 1,200 dairy cows = 4,800 finisher pigs. That would be more like 10,000 grower pigs. This is a standard animal unit math used by the government for comparisons. That might help you with your math figuring. So what that means is you need 33 times more land than I need given the difference in herd sizes. I use 70 acres for the farming. To be comparable you would have 2,333 acres for your 1,200 dairy cows. That is a feasible number. Do you have it?

Except, I have a lot more acreage that the 70 acres drains to. This is our forest lands. Our farm is able to fertilize our forests which improves tree growth. We have more than an order of magnitude more forest land than fields. This would mean you would need to have more like 23,000 acres to have a comparable amount of land for your 1,200 cows. Do you have it?

Except, we grow most of our feed. Do you buy feed or grow it? Growing the feed takes the nutrients and cycles them back through the system, along with the nutrients the plants are capturing from the air.



Plowpoint said:


> Few small farms and homesteaders have these storage facilities so just piling up the manure contaminates the ground.


I prefer not to store the manure. Rather the animals spread it immediately. This is a much simpler way.



Plowpoint said:


> I am not saying that you Highlands, are necessarily are polluting your own soil


You are repeatedly implying it. But, don't worry, I'm not. The soil fertility is improving, not polluting. There is a vast difference. This is the advantage of managed rotational grazing out on real pastures rather than confinement housing.



Plowpoint said:


> people, especially small farmers and homesteaders need to think of this issue before they start loading up their small acreages with a lot of animals especially if they do not have a impermeable surface in which to store manure, or have a place to spread it.


No, since I don't store manure I don't need a place to store it nor do I need a place to spread it. The animals natural spread the manure as they walk around grazing out on the pastures. It is becoming evident from this discussion that we farm in very different ways. I use managed rotational grazing of livestock out on pastures where they gather their own food and spread their own manure. I don't harvest the food and bring it to the animals nor do I shovel and truck manure.

Most small farms aren't storing manure. I don't think I know of any small farms who store manure. Rather they graze the animals. It is the medium sized and large farms that end up housing the animals who get into storing the manure because they have to shovel it, or otherwise move it, when they clean out the housing. I don't shovel sh**t. Saves time.



Plowpoint said:


> farm their ground for 6 years and to let the soil remain fallow in the 7th year.


This is one thing we come close on. We use off years in our managed rotational grazing. Fields get years when they rest and other years when they're grazed. I do this for a number of reasons which include letting the grasses and other forages have a chance to go to seed so they self propagate. This way I don't have to buy as much seed, an input cost, and the plants I have are better adapted to our climate.

Another reason is that off years breaks parasite cycles naturally so we don't have to use chemical dewormers which helps preserve the dung beetle and earthworm populations. Our harsh winters also help with this.

Off years are also an opportunity to grow other things in pastures, intercropping with the pasture forages.

All both good things.



Plowpoint said:


> In those days, grazing animals was their mainstay for food


Which is how we do it. Most of our livestock's food comes from our pastures and they harvest it. Saves me time, money and equipment.



Plowpoint said:


> those animals ate and pooed out 85% of what they consumed. That means the animals retained 15% of what the land produced.


I love hearing this quote. It's simply simplistically wrong. Reality is far more complex. That quote fails to take into account that the plants suck a huge amount of nutrients right out of the air. Free fertilizer. CO2 and nitrogen to start with. Water as well. This is another way that we're building our soil interacts with the animals. We planted legumes, among other things, in our pastures. As the soil pH rose and the soil fertility improved these and the other forages are depositing more organic matter. The animals are a part of that cycle of improving the top soil quality and depth. It's a system.



Plowpoint said:


> After 6 years the land had become nearly depleted of nutrients (15% times six equates to 90% depletion).


This is where the fallacy comes in, from not understanding how the cycles really work. The science of the soil and animal/plant biology is a lot more complex than the simplistic 85%/15% cycle suggests.

In the end, we agree in the general principles, of stewardship of the land, the plants and the animals. Good wishes.


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## wildcat6

oregon woodsmok said:


> As far as I can tell, they aren't selling. Darn difficult to even give them away.
> 
> I eat mine, and with the price of feed, they are not a cheap dinner. I like rabbit, though, so I raise them.


I see. I was wandering the same. I cannot give mine away either. I do like using their poo in the garden though.


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## PaulNKS

I'm a thinkin' Plowpoint failed at his 75000 chicken operation and thinks that if he couldn't do it, no one can.

Our taxes in Kansas have a legal ceiling set by the legislature for ag land. So, our farm property taxes are very cheap, nothing like the $10 per acre someone described in Maine. Even here where the house is, this 160 acres is less than $500 per year. The other farms that have no house are a little less.

Since we pasture year round and produce our own hay, our beef cattle are very profitable and provide us with a comfortable lifestyle. We aren't tied to home. We have a 5th wheel RV and travel. We are able to do anything we want and we have everything we need. BUT... in the early years it was all about providing mostly for just our needs and not our wants or luxuries. That set us up for a profitable cow/calf operation. YES, IT CAN BE DONE. We've always had meat goats and a few dairy goats. We are increasing our goat herd. They have also been very profitable. 

I like what Highlands has done. Not only have they shown it can work, but they've also shown that other livestock can be profitable, IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

The homesteaders that fail or give up or can't make a profit are those that try to do to much on too little land, or don't understand the full picture.


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## PaulNKS

By the way, when a previous poster mentioned cattle being 1/3 of what they are now, just a couple years ago, either didn't have regular beef cattle, or were trying to sell to a niche market. For the last 12 to 15 years, cattle prices have remained steady at over $100/cwt for calves, and anything over that price, anyone can make a profit. If not, they should evaluate their management practices. No time in the last 20 years have cattle been priced at 1/3 of what they are now. With prices being as high as they have been for so long, it doesn't take a genius or even a sharp cattleman to make money, if selling calves.


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## Plowpoint

PaulNKS said:


> I'm a thinkin' Plowpoint failed at his 75000 chicken operation and thinks that if he couldn't do it, no one can.


Hardly, we farmed chickens for 27 consecutive years and only got out when my Grandfather retired from farming. Before that we were into potatoes, something we did from the 1850's until 1988 so we were quite successful at that as well, again due to retirement of my Grandfather. The sheep farm is something I re-started in 2008, but that is entirely mine where as the dairy farm is part of the maternal side of the family tree. That one has only been farming since 1910, so I joke with them and call them newcomers to the business of farming; 392 years versus only 102 years...LOL.

For some reason Highland's felt as if I was directly addressing him, but that is not the case. In fact I specifically stated that it was not intended for him per se, but he somehow missed that and took it as an affront anyway.

We raised pigs for years, boiling the left over potatoes that failed to sell and fattened pigs on that by my Great-Grandfather so we are well versed in doing what we can to make a profit with what we got. Producing our own feed is not only more profitable, it is about the only way to farm profitably here. Keeping an eye not only on production costs, but how it is harvested and processed allows us to keep our grain bill down, something that Holsteins need a lot of. The better silage we put up, the better corn we produce, the less we need to buy, and here in Maine grain is produced from grain in the mid-west and prices reflect that transportation cost. Since all this relates to my sheep farm as well (same machinery produces feed for both), I am keenly aware of what we have, what we do and how and why we do it.

We actually have a lot in common Highland's, as while I hate to admit it, and as much as I am trying to wean myself from the forestry aspect of farming, I make considerable profit off that side of things. Sheep are far more economical per acre, but trees are money in the bank if you always cut your junk wood for pulp and keep your saw logs. Even foresters are amazed at the quality of the wood we have here...it just comes from chainsaw restraint. Like you, part of that growth is because our forest is fed by manure simply because my fields are on top of the hills and the forest land lays below it.

In New England, the best pastures in the world I am told because of topography, soil, rainfall and other factors, we can get 10 sheep per acre, and about 1 cow per acre with continuous grazing. I rotationally graze, as does the dairy farm, but they only do calfs, heifers and dry cows obviously as the milkers need more diligent care. I also free range my sheep...that is they do not even have fences to contain them. The way my farm is situated, a small portion is along the road while the remainder is just open farm land bordered by thousands of acres of uninterrupted forest. I put fence along the road to limit my liability exposure because Maine is not a free range state and we are required to keep animals out of the road, but that is it. With fields teeming with orchard grass, timothy, clover, alfalfa and covers, why would the sheep head for the woods? They are quite content where they are at over 2 acres per head of sheep. Parasitic issues are almost a non-issue for the amount of acreage they are allowed to graze upon.

As for feed lots, well most of us in the northern hemisphere of the nation do feed lot if we really want to be honest with ourselves. The grazing window for me is about 170 days with the rest having the sheep pen up near the sheep barns. Technically they can run through the snow on the ten acres the barn encompasses, but lets be honest, livestock are lazy and once you start giving them winter feed, they hunker down in a pretty tight area on their own. I track that "confinement" in my records so I have good data on how many sheep days my sheep are grazing and how many tons they consume versus grazed feed. I hope to track that as I continue to explore ways to maximize profitability.

As for obtaining winter feed, I completely understand. As I said in a previous post I WANT to put up my own feed and rely less on the dairy farm equipment, but am unmotivated to do so right now. Because my property supplies the dairy farm so much feed, and my sheep consume so little in comparison, it is just too easy to run over to the dairy farm and ask for a truckload to fill my bunker. Because their silo is tested bi-weekly and silage is better in one big pile, then little piles, I can't beat the quality and ease at which I get feed. I also save 60% over "typical" sheep farmers because I have no winter feed bill.

We may farm differently, only because we have different opportunities. I am sure if you had unlimited, free access to the huge farming equipment I have, you would take advantage of it too. As for the results, we get the same thing. Soil test prove that the only thing this farm is lacking in nutrient wise, is lime. I am even at the upper limit of organic matter simply because dairy farm manure is loaded with it. It is also loaded with clover since cows and sheep pass the seeds through them without harming the germination. You can actually see where the truck made its manure path through the fields by looking at the 30 foot row of clover-ribbon going through the field. I just let nitrogen fixation be what it is through the clover and alfalfa and never factor it into any of my equations. All that has already been done through my Comprehensive Nutrient Management Plan. I just got to abide by what it says and so far it has proven to be good.

I guess I am just surprised that when you start mentioning some routine faults of homesteaders and small farmers, people instantly assume you are against small farmers and homesteaders. That is not the case at all. I am on the county ag board and fight for small farmers and homesteaders all the tie. We need them, and I love how they defend the bigger farmers by knowing how hard it is to raise animals and veggies. Today we need them since animal right activists and others seem to be on the rise. But I must say, where I live anyway, people like my neighbor, who have very little land and several animals is pretty common, especially with horses. It sounds like you are not like that at all Highland's and that is good, but there are a lot of others that are polluting their land and just do not see it.


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## pilgrimfarms

Highland, you almost talk Holistic Management there 

By managing your land and being a good land steward, one can get more production from the same land.

We like to do a gross profit analysis on things, and I still maintain that my goats produce more $ than my boyfriends cows.
One cow = 5 or 6 goats as an animal unit. (same amount of grass to feed 1 cow feeds 5 or 6 goats)
One cow = one calf
5 goats x 1.2 = 6 kids (1.2 is low, 1.5 would be better and 2 is possible with good management)
At current market prices, my 6 kids will net more money than the calf.

I think the other thing to think of, is not which particular animal, but how can your land produce more revenue? Maybe you can raise pastured chickens with your cow. They will scratch through her manure and eat undigested grains, and browse different plants than her. I am all about multi-species grazing. 
I raise pastured eggs, pastured broilers and turkeys, as well as sheep and goats. 
But as a small startup-farmer, it is hard. I work part time. I rent my land. I use community pasture. 
In order for me to make a living off the land, I would need a minimum of 500 sheep or goats. And I'm not a big spender. 

Oh, a word on the folks haying and those buying hay:
I am from Canada and hay prices were $100/ton but now more like $40/ton after 2 wet years. 
The rust, rot and depreciation of machinery means that for me, it makes more sense to buy hay than to make it. Hay brought in translates as extra nutrients too - the hay cycles through the cow/goat/sheep and lands on the ground as manure = fertilizer. The uneaten hay is mulched into building a nice soil full of microbes. 
If we couldn't buy hay, the next best option for us would be to hay a pasture and have the animals bale graze where the hay is, instead of hauling the hay.


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## highlands

I'm not familiar with the term "Holistic Management" but it may be saying the same thing. term sense. There are may ways.

Land rental is tough. I've watched a lot of farmers getting started get stung through that. It's hard to put the work investing in infrastructure into land you don't own. This is why I spent the years doing other things so we could buy. Wear a tight belt.

One thing to keep in mind is you make mistakes learning. We tried making money with rabbits, meat birds, sheep. Rabbits just didn't sell well enough back in 1992. Chickens couldn't make it without constant feeding and pampering - not my style. I raise sheep very well but the processing eats up virtually all the money. Right now we're sheepless for a few years but now that we'll have our own processing facility I plan to expand our sheep again since I'll be able to do the processing rather than spend on it. Sheep co-graze wonderfully with the pigs. The chickens and ducks co-graze well too and produce eggs which are good protein for weaner pigs. It's a system where parts working together make the difference.

Finding what works for you in your location with your resources and inclination is the biggest trick. What works for me or the next guy might not work for you or the other guy.

In terms of winter, we break our herds up into many smaller groups for the winter and then set it up so they have to walk a long distance from bed to food. This is the opposite of what most farms do with closing the animals in. This causes them to continue to exercise, we can adjust the paths and they continue to spread the manure on the fields. The animals are up on the snow pack which protects the ground. The winter paddocks become gardens during the next growing season. By fall those crops are ready to be eaten and we start moving the animals through to harvest them by their own effort. Pasture is stored in round marshmellows - ~800 lbs each. This all avoids the feedlot syndrome.

One thing I favor is going slowly. I see all too many people who try to do everything all at once and then they burn out emotionally, financially, energy-wise. There is so much to learn. Far better to pick one major thing each season, maybe a couple of minor things. I grew up gardening and seeing my cousins farm but not actually farming. Our kids have the advantage of growing up farming - they know these things from a young age. They're a step ahead.

Advice: plant some fruit trees early, even if they're not in the right place. I made that mistake, for 20 years I put off planting apples because I want the 'just right place' for the orchard. Mistake. Had I at least planted some they would be big trees now even if they were not in the perfect spot.


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## Jim S.

highlands said:


> I'm not familiar with the term "Holistic Management" but it may be saying the same thing. term sense. There are may ways.
> 
> Land rental is tough. I've watched a lot of farmers getting started get stung through that. It's hard to put the work investing in infrastructure into land you don't own. This is why I spent the years doing other things so we could buy. Wear a tight belt.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind is you make mistakes learning. We tried making money with rabbits, meat birds, sheep. Rabbits just didn't sell well enough back in 1992. Chickens couldn't make it without constant feeding and pampering - not my style. I raise sheep very well but the processing eats up virtually all the money. Right now we're sheepless for a few years but now that we'll have our own processing facility I plan to expand our sheep again since I'll be able to do the processing rather than spend on it. Sheep co-graze wonderfully with the pigs. The chickens and ducks co-graze well too and produce eggs which are good protein for weaner pigs. It's a system where parts working together make the difference.
> 
> Finding what works for you in your location with your resources and inclination is the biggest trick. What works for me or the next guy might not work for you or the other guy.
> 
> In terms of winter, we break our herds up into many smaller groups for the winter and then set it up so they have to walk a long distance from bed to food. This is the opposite of what most farms do with closing the animals in. This causes them to continue to exercise, we can adjust the paths and they continue to spread the manure on the fields. The animals are up on the snow pack which protects the ground. The winter paddocks become gardens during the next growing season. By fall those crops are ready to be eaten and we start moving the animals through to harvest them by their own effort. Pasture is stored in round marshmellows - ~800 lbs each. This all avoids the feedlot syndrome.
> 
> One thing I favor is going slowly. I see all too many people who try to do everything all at once and then they burn out emotionally, financially, energy-wise. There is so much to learn. Far better to pick one major thing each season, maybe a couple of minor things. I grew up gardening and seeing my cousins farm but not actually farming. Our kids have the advantage of growing up farming - they know these things from a young age. They're a step ahead.
> 
> Advice: plant some fruit trees early, even if they're not in the right place. I made that mistake, for 20 years I put off planting apples because I want the 'just right place' for the orchard. Mistake. Had I at least planted some they would be big trees now even if they were not in the perfect spot.


Highander, I have to be honest and say I am not real pleased with what I see as an insulting approach to my answers. I thought we were having a discussion and not a personal attack here. 

In reading your posts, it sounds like you have it all down pat and live an idyllic lifestyle you say your kids love and your whole family enjoys while making a fine living with no other income source. While I say more power to you, that's where I get leery of the information being supplied. 

A little of my background. I started out helping on my FIL's cattle farm in the late '80s and have farmed my own place for 22 consecutive years, and I have farmed in good times and bad, through great price bubbles when a lot of people thought they would be permanently rich and through terrible price depressions when the foolhardy lost everything.

My FIL, rest his soul and glad to have learned from him, started farming with OXEN at the age of 5 on his father's dairy. There is a photo of my FIL driving a 14-oxen team wagon at age 6. His father before him farmed that same place with HORSES and OXEN. My FIL expanded his farm to nearly 3 times the size of what he inherited over time. So I was taught by deep experience.

I bought and own my place outright. I buy my equipment with cash. Of course, I can't think of any powered equipment I have that was made after 1970, but it is in good shape and gets the job done. 

If you can find info that says farming is NOT a low ROI endeavor, please supply it. Every business analysis, including those of the lenders, says it is. I have sold cattle at $1.65. I have sold cattle at 33 cents. I have sold goats at $2. I have sold goats at 50 cents. I can control the timing to a degree but not the price. 

Yes, yes, I could sell them to people who come to my farm. That is always the idyllic perfect solution. Did that too, for 2 years, until a "customer" came back later and stole the goats he had been looking at from my back pasture. Then I got out that sharp pencil and found I had been losing money on on-farm sales all along, when my hours of waiting on people and jawboning with tire-kickers were factored in.

My friend is the University guy for small ruminents around here. LOL, he learned more about practical small ruminent farming from watching me while I did it than he did from those textbooks, and it has been fun to see how the influence of my operation affected what he tells newbies in his seminars. He still has huge inefficiencies on his own farm, and yet that is THE way it is done by the book, so that's how he does it. He's not making money and says he'd like to get rid of the goats, but has to keep them for appearances sake since he is the small ruminent expert. LOL.

He did a full-scale multi-year study of an actual goat operation for meat goats, starting from scratch and the University raised the goats. They kept meticulous records. Conclusion? It lost a ton of money.

My FIL had great sayings. 

"The eggheads will tell you they have all the answers. Beware of the man with all the answers."

Plowpoint used one, too: "The best tool a good farmer has is a sharp pencil."

"I don't care that you have 'maximized production.' What is the true and complete COST and how much did you MAKE?"

"NOTHING is FREE!"

"The seed, feed and chemical companies don't want the farmer to think about his profit, just their own."

"Never forget who FUNDS the university research." 

My favorite, though, was, "Interest is a dead horse, and you can't ride a dead horse."

Anyhow, Highlands, I am glad you live the idyllic life, but your posts make me scratch my head. Even the biggest grain farmer in my county, who grows on 5,000 acres, still keeps his postal delivery job. He'll probably need it this year, as we are in severe drought here and the corn crop is already mostly lost.

I love the farming lifestyle dearly, but it does a dis-service to the new folks looking in here to sugarcoat the economic realities of agriculture. I don't want anyone to lose their shirt by not looking cold-eyed at the business. Anyone who does not know their true land, labor, feed, seed, fertilizer, inputs, equipment, overhead and opportunity costs in cold, hard figures is not being honest with themselves about their operation, regardless of its size or product. How true it was when my FIL used to say, "NOTHING is FREE!"


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## oregon woodsmok

I've read Highlands note. There is absolutely nothing insulting there.

Somehow, highlands gets prices for his product that the rest of us can only dream about. I don't know if that is because he is the best salesman in the world, or if it is a function of where he lives, with a huge customer base of wealthy healthy purchasers. But whatever it is, he's got himself a system that makes farming pay well for him.

Good for him, I say, and more power to him. Just because in my area, the farmers all have second jobs and a lot of farmers go broke, doesn't mean that some people haven't got the system working for them just perfectly. Highlands isn't the only one i know of who has figured out how to make farming pay in the area he lives in.

I personally think it is a rare person, in a perfect environment, who has mad marketing skills who can make a lot of money while farming. For the rest of it, it costs too much money to get in, land is too expensive, equipment is too expensive, taxes are too high, weather is too uncooperative, and product sells for far too little.

Of course that doesn't mean that the family can't be fed on home raised food and a few dollars can't be made by selling some of the produce. Just that most of us can't pay all the bills and live entirely on the product of the farm.


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## Betho

This whole thread is bizarre. It's like it is so "all or nothing" for some people - either you try to make a ton of money or you can't make anything at all and it isn't worthwhile.

That's, honestly, kinda ridiculous. There's definitely a middleground of minimizing your expenses, living a simpler lifestyle, and finding which niche product might sell well in your community. By doing all of that, you can earn a comfortable living on your farm. 

I have seen SO many people say it can't be done, but I've met a lot of people who are doing it, and loving life. Apparently those people were never told it couldn't be done. They earn a living, are not broke, put their kids through college, and aren't necessarily working themselves to the bone. 

Interestingly, I've noticed that most of the people that say you can't make a comfortable living on the farm are usually those who have huge farms, which necessitates the acquisition of large machinery, infrastructure, and the resulting debt.

Everyone that I've met or talked to who is, in fact, making a comfortable life for themselves and their families via the farm have minimized expenses (Highlands, for instance, lives in a very small home debt-free) and worked their way slowly, keeping their products to higher dollar items where there is a true market. 

They also haven't grown bigger than what they can reasonably handle, maybe a tractor or so. Niche markets are great, and can sometimes be worth driving into the big city for their farmer's market. How about mushrooms, asparagus, etc? Selling to restaurants you will often get a better price than regular markets, since the chefs are often willing to pay more for the better quality than a deal-seeker going to the FM for cheap veggies. 

As far as my answer to the question of this thread - I seem to remember a discussion on HT where someone said her most profitable animal was feeder mice she raised and sold to pet stores.


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## Plowpoint

Betho said:


> Interestingly, I've noticed that most of the people that say you can't make a comfortable living on the farm are usually those who have huge farms, which necessitates the acquisition of large machinery, infrastructure, and the resulting debt.


I think one of the reasons why this is so, is because the larger farmer has more to lose. I know on our big dairy farm, currently there is 4 generations that draw an income from what the dairy cows produce, because so many people rely on them, we cannot simply change what we do on a whim. Nor should we. We have an established farm, and as such, the best thing we can do is keep progressing forward, nudging the direction here or there, and still utilizing our vast contacts, size, economy of scale, and position in the community to move forward. Every ship Captain and pilot knows, you should stay the course and make subtle changes should the weather change...not drastic ones.

Start up operations and small farms do not have this burden. They have little to lose should their "radical ideas" not materialize and have few people to be concerned about. As Janis Joplin said in her rendition of Me and Bobby McGee, "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose"...well start up farms and small farmers have exactly that, nothing to lose. Big farms have considerable assets and people relying on them to stay successful. That is why there is such a shift in attitudes.

But old farms such as mine and the dairy farm in the family, have seen a lot of farms with new ideas fail. We get labeled sticks in the mud, and non-progressive thinkers, but the reality is, the majority of these radical farm ideas do fail over the long term. I guess it depends on what a person thinks of as "long term successful." My definition is multi-generational, where as a new farmer might consider 10 years in the farming business as "running a successful farm". Neither one of us is wrong...its just a different perspective.

For instance, I know of a woman that came from out of state and really went head-long into the sheep industry here. I thought her ways was progressive, and that she was really doing well starting some new markets and doing some new things we have not done before...many which benefited me with new places and ways to sell my sheep.

But it was too intensive...

She could not maintain the amount of work that it required, so now, less than 10 years after she began, she is throwing in the towel, selling off her sheep and business and moving back where she came from. I hope she keeps her head up; she tried hard and realized what a few of us knew all along, that doing the middle man's job, WHILE farming is incredibly intensive. But for me, her leaving is sad because now I am left without a market that I grew accustomed too. That leaves a sad taste in my mouth, and it certainly leaves a bad taste in the mouths of the restaurants and stores that based part of their sales on the lamb and mutton that she gathered throughout the state. The sad truth is, the markets she generated came and went with her; and I guess I am just glad that I was not silly enough to depend on her for my entire sales as I am sure some sheep farmers here did. And I think that is why a few of us old farmers are a bit skeptical sometimes. Experience can make you jaded...and self preserved.


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## CarolT

Highlands, your house would be about 16.5x15 to be that footage. How many people live in it? Not saying it's impossible, 4 of us lived in an 8x10 space for months. I just have to wonder if it dropped a number on you?

I've been very interested in the thread, I wish I could list something that's made me a profit, but I am lucky if I get a good percentage of my feed bill... <sigh>


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## cindy-e

CarolT said:


> Highlands, your house would be about 16.5x15 to be that footage. How many people live in it? Not saying it's impossible, 4 of us lived in an 8x10 space for months. I just have to wonder if it dropped a number on you?
> 
> I've been very interested in the thread, I wish I could list something that's made me a profit, but I am lucky if I get a good percentage of my feed bill... <sigh>


no, he lives in a tiny house. It is all on his blog, pics and everything. Many of us followed it closely when he was building it to see what we could learn. That is the benefit of this place though; people are teaching with out ever knowing it, just by sharing how they live. I learn something new here on HT every day. 

Cindyc.


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## poorboy

I became acquainted with a gentleman from Ark. at a local flea mkt. 5-6 yrs.ago. he was in failing health and was buying and selling at the flea market to generate a little cash. 
he mentioned one day that he had been in the egg business, to get him to talk I remarked "not very profitable was it?" .28cents a hen profit each year average he remarked" "Couldna live on that" I sez. "i had over 600,000 hens" he remarked...So I guess 168,000$ profit Is a good deal..he even done better than the rest that had been regulars at the flea mkt for 20 years..He was extremely sharp on the margins of things he bought and sold (bought close and sold close, big volume of sales)..really miss the old gent as the cancer that made him give up the egg business finally took him months ago..


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## Rustaholic

oregon woodsmok said:


> I've read Highlands note. There is absolutely nothing insulting there.
> 
> Somehow, highlands gets prices for his product that the rest of us can only dream about. I don't know if that is because he is the best salesman in the world, or if it is a function of where he lives, with a huge customer base of wealthy healthy purchasers. But whatever it is, he's got himself a system that makes farming pay well for him.
> 
> Good for him, I say, and more power to him. Just because in my area, the farmers all have second jobs and a lot of farmers go broke, doesn't mean that some people haven't got the system working for them just perfectly. Highlands isn't the only one i know of who has figured out how to make farming pay in the area he lives in.
> 
> I personally think it is a rare person, in a perfect environment, who has mad marketing skills who can make a lot of money while farming. For the rest of it, it costs too much money to get in, land is too expensive, equipment is too expensive, taxes are too high, weather is too uncooperative, and product sells for far too little.
> 
> Of course that doesn't mean that the family can't be fed on home raised food and a few dollars can't be made by selling some of the produce. Just that most of us can't pay all the bills and live entirely on the product of the farm.


Highlands is raising pigs the right way and if I was in that area I would buy their meat. 
I have a farming friend.
I have just been enlightening them about the higher prices of truly healthy meats. They own 100 acres and cut and sell hay from over 300 more leased acres. They raise pigs, butcher them and start them cooking in one of their many trailered pig roasters for events. They do 4 to 6 meat cattle per year, butcher them and sell the meat. They butcher tons of deer in season. AND they have a good sized boat to do charter fishing in Lake Michigan.
They make a good living and the wife works where I do for the insurance just like it has been posted here.


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## MichelleFL

farmerDale said:


> Growing most of our own feed, and always having spilled grain, screenings, or bin sweepings, or mixed grains, etc., for us the most profitable on a per acre basis, would be any kid of poultry. Ducks, broilers, turkeys, laying hens. When it only cost you 80 cents a dozen to grow eggs worth 3 bucks, a dollar a pound to raise ducks or broilers, where the ducks sell for 5 and the chickens sell for 3 as free rangers, it is clear. But, pigs would be right in there, and if your land is cheap like it is here, sheep have been VERY good to the farmers. Cattle are about half as profitable as sheep "here". depends how you raise them. If you raise sheep like wooly pigs, treat them like wooly pigs, IE housed indoors and not out on grass, the profits decline.
> 
> Having hayland, machinery, feed grains, grainland, and good pasture, at an economical purchase price, and you can make almost any critter profitable.
> 
> But to some, a farm is anything over say 5 acres, but you are very limited on those acres. When you get talking 320 acres minimum, then there is hope of raising all the feed for a reasonable number of animals, that can be hoped for to turn a profit. I guess it depends on what is meant by profit? Profit as in thirty six cents, or profit as in 36 000 bucks???


Where is land cheap? What state is Eastern Saskatchewan in?


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## oregon woodsmok

MichelleFL said:


> Where is land cheap? What state is Eastern Saskatchewan in?


Not a good endorsement for our school system.


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## Allen W

MichelleFL said:


> Where is land cheap? What state is Eastern Saskatchewan in?


Canada


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## fantasymaker

texican said:


> If you have to buy feed, your not going to make any money, if your 'honest'... as in figuring in all your infrastructure, food, and vet costs. Most old timers will tell you your not raising beef (or goats) but grass (or forage). Buying hay negates any thought of profits.


Logic like this is why lots of them old Farmers are out of business.
A bale of hay is worth something. It makes no difference if you sell it or feed it its worth the same.
Think of it this way. Say hay is seeling for $3 a bale. Every bale you feed could have been sold for $ 3. 
If you feed 10 bales its $30 bucks . You could have sold it and had $30 bucks in your pocket. 
If you buy your feed its still $30 bucks.
No mater how you look at it that stock cost you $30 bucks to feed.


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## fantasymaker

In the end the most profitable stock is the kind you like. If You like hogs you will pay more attention and know them better . You will catch tiny problems before they are big. You will put in the time to do things right.


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## ryanthomas

fantasymaker said:


> Logic like this is why lots of them old Farmers are out of business.
> A bale of hay is worth something. It makes no difference if you sell it or feed it its worth the same.
> Think of it this way. Say hay is seeling for $3 a bale. Every bale you feed could have been sold for $ 3.
> If you feed 10 bales its $30 bucks . You could have sold it and had $30 bucks in your pocket.
> If you buy your feed its still $30 bucks.
> No mater how you look at it that stock cost you $30 bucks to feed.


If you produce and sell 10 bales of hay for $3, you don't have $30 in your pocket. You have $30 minus what it cost you to make the hay. Let's say it costs you $1 a bale to make, then after you sell 10 bales you only have $20 in your pocket, not $30.

It's a form of arbitrage. By feeding your hay to your own animals, you're essentially buying it from yourself for $2 a bale (the profit you could have made off of it) instead of buying it from someone else for $3 a bale.

Some might say you're buying it from yourself for $1 per bale since that's what it cost you to make it, but that leaves out the opportunity cost of not selling it to someone else.

There's also the difficult to measure value in keeping the nutrients on your farm.


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## Heritagefarm

fantasymaker said:


> In the end the most profitable stock is the kind you like. If You like hogs you will pay more attention and know them better . You will catch tiny problems before they are big. You will put in the time to do things right.


You can love something a lot, but if you actually like the animals that much you're liable to allow feelings to get in the instead of a proper culling system. And if you love a certain animal enough, you'll never get rid of it and then you're just running a feeding operation in the red.


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## fantasymaker

ryanthomas said:


> If you produce and sell 10 bales of hay for $3, you don't have $30 in your pocket. You have $30 minus what it cost you to make the hay. Let's say it costs you $1 a bale to make, then after you sell 10 bales you only have $20 in your pocket, not $30.
> 
> It's a form of arbitrage. By feeding your hay to your own animals, you're essentially buying it from yourself for $2 a bale (the profit you could have made off of it) instead of buying it from someone else for $3 a bale.
> 
> Some might say you're buying it from yourself for $1 per bale since that's what it cost you to make it, but that leaves out the opportunity cost of not selling it to someone else.
> 
> There's also the difficult to measure value in keeping the nutrients on your farm.


 But the point is if you put it in a cow it still costs you $30 to feed that cow.


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## ryanthomas

fantasymaker said:


> But the point is if you put it in a cow it still costs you $30 to feed that cow.


I understand what you were saying now...I was caught in a circular loop from some of the other posts.


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## Plowpoint

I know what you two are saying, but sometimes there are reasons for having livestock on the farm.

For years my father just leased his farm out to other farmers who needed the land, but in 2008 when I took over the farm I realized we could no longer do that and continue to pay property taxes. Having livestock made sense. Since doing that the amount of improvements on the farm has been monumental.

For instance; for years we wanted an access road to a far off field that was difficult to access. When grazing sheep had to cross a stream to get to it, the USDA provided a road that had numerous benefits; protection of the stream, truck access to the field, a safe passage for harvesting equipment, a road for the harvesting of forest products...the list really goes on. All because I had sheep that were mucking up a stream. That has tangible benefits that are hard to place into a cost analysis.

At the same time, now that I have sheep and are placing food on the national food chain, I am entitled to some low interest farmer loans. The difference between 4% interest and 1.25% interest is staggering...again directly attributed to the sheep I have grazing, so again that is difficult to quantify in a line item cost analysis.

Then there are the subsidies. With animals on the farm, you can qualify for subsidies which are real life payments that certainly off set the cost of raising animals. A lot of the things were were doing anyway and not getting paid for, but with ownership of animals on the farm, direct payments are now made. Again those are hard to calculate but certainly off-set the cost of having to obtain feed.

I cannot put exact per bale dollar figures on this stuff, but these three quick examples show that farming is complex, and it takes a sharp pencil and the consideration of a broad amount of things to decipher whether a type of animal is profitable or not.


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## highlands

Allen W said:


> Canada


Now that we have universal healthcare it is the 51st state, right?


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## highlands

ryanthomas said:


> If you produce and sell 10 bales of hay for $3, you don't have $30 in your pocket. You have $30 minus what it cost you to make the hay. Let's say it costs you $1 a bale to make, then after you sell 10 bales you only have $20 in your pocket, not $30.
> 
> It's a form of arbitrage. By feeding your hay to your own animals, you're essentially buying it from yourself for $2 a bale (the profit you could have made off of it) instead of buying it from someone else for $3 a bale.


No, it doesn't work that way in reality. It isn't worth $3/bale until you get the cash in hand and even then you didn't really get $3.

I hear a lot of people mouthing the phrase above but it is simply wrong. That doesn't take into account the friction in the selling system, the sales taxes where they apply, transportation, etc.

More over, I'm willing to use lower grade things to feed my chickens, etc that are left over from my production which I can't sell or aren't worth selling as seconds.

We do vertical integration. It is much better to produce something for ourselves, to do the work ourselves, than to pay someone else if at all possible.


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## highlands

CarolT said:


> Highlands, your house would be about 16.5x15 to be that footage. How many people live in it? Not saying it's impossible, 4 of us lived in an 8x10 space for months. I just have to wonder if it dropped a number on you?


There are five humans, two ferrets and dogs that come in to visit occasionally. Plus sometimes a chick or piglet that needs care.

We spend most of our time outdoors so the small 252 sq-ft cottage is fine. Indoors is for sleeping, reading, eating, computer use, etc. Our cottage is roughly a 20'x13' footprint. You can see it here:

Cottage | Sugar Mountain Farm

Here is a not entirely accurate older floor plan:

Tractor Back &#8211; North Walls Rising | Sugar Mountain Farm

Someday I'll get around to putting up an up-to-date layout but you can see it better in the photos that are in the various articles at the first link. Check out the bedroom ceiling:

Master Bedroom Inlayed Ceiling | Sugar Mountain Farm

We have a small loft area in the front and a small attic in the back. Full bathroom with bathtub and shower. Full kitchen but small. The central area is open to the 11' high barrel vault ceiling. It is very quiet because I designed it to soak up sound using the same sorts of acoustic principles as used for concert halls. This way all five of use can be inside and the house is still very quiet.

Total cost of construction was about $7K. There's more to do, someday, but it is lovely as is, far, far better than the old farm house further down the hill which was impossible to keep warm, repaired or clean. We've been living here gradually since 2006 with an official move in date of 2007 and loving every day of it.

Cheers,

-Walter
Sugar Mountain
in Vermont


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## Hexe

I'm not sure if the discussion that's ensued here still pertains to the original question. The question was what the most profitable animal on the farm is. Unless I'm reading it wrong, there is no mention of full-time or part-time farming, homesteading, weekend-farming, etc. 
This means a different answers from different people. Location (close to a major city or rural?), rainfall and the land (flat, rocky, forest or pasture? acreage?) used are factors. Working a full-time job or having a stay-at-home parent will also figure in this. 

So - here it goes: both my husband and I work full-time, but we have 25 acres and wanted to use it for something other than a) mow it twice a year or b) not mow it and watch the forest take back over. Our solution was cattle for grazing the pastures, they also decimate the brush that's trying to taking over said pastures. They are easy to fence (2-wire electric) and don't need to be pampered (like highland's pigs) - they stay outside all year round (they have shelter for bad weather but hardly every use it).They are hardy and big enough to manage the deep snow we get during winter and because of the ability to stay outdoors I don't have to clean stalls/barns, buy bedding, need a yard for the winter or spread manure (they do that themselves...), also there is no pressure from predators on the calfs, unlike kids or lambs. The hay they need in winter is fed out on different spots in the pastures, which re-seeds and fertilizes the pasture and keeps it "new". We sell beef by the half side or an occasional calf. This pays for the hay I need in the winter and our hormone- and antibotic free, humanely raised beef that's processed locally. originally wavered between goats, sheep or cattle, but the added expense for additional fencing, poss. shearing and winter-quarters made the decision for me. I might be making more money on the goats or sheep, but I also would have had to invest more on infrastructure. Now, that being said, I am still interested in adding an additional species to graze with the cattle and may be adding either to our farm. It IS a learning experience, what works stays and the ones that don't work out go. 

Broilers have worked out well for us as well. I raise several batches in spring/summer/fall and keep them in electric netting on freshly grazed pasture - which they fertilize with the plentiful manure they produce (again - no time spent in cleaning barns or buying bedding). They are easy to sell and there is no breeding stock to be taken care off in winter.

I kept pasture based rabbits for several years as well, but they proved to be too much work for us. They were definetely profitable (sales from breeding stock, sale as raw-based diets for dogs and for our own use). I miss them most for their manure - that stuff was AWESOME!!! Anything and everything grew from that, wether it was used in the garden or spread on pasture.

I guess that if I had to make my living of our land, the whole set-up would have to be changed. Our goal is not so much to make everything as profitable as it possible can be, but to integrate enough to make it somewhat profitable AND easy to deal with in maintenance, infrastructure and upkeep. 

Hope this helps.


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## fantasymaker

The smaller the scale the more special you want to be.
If you were custom building cars you would build Lamborghini's not fiestas.
If you can only raise 2 animal units on your farm( cow equivalents)
Id rather spread the risk with8 sheep than two cows. 
If I could only raise 8 sheep you better believe the would be the TOP of the line registered most expensive rarest ones I could.


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## Allen W

Hexe

You make a good point about what you are doing has to be workable for you and your recourses as well as profitable.


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## ET1 SS

We have had hogs before, always kept them in small areas with a stall and fed them grain and table scraps. The meat from them has been good, and my wife's math seems to tell the story that per pound the price beat store-prices.

We have never done free-range hogs before. This year we are giving that a try. After feeding our five hogs grain all winter, I was really concerned over how much these things eat per day. [five hogs can easily eat 50 pounds of corn a day]

So far, I have been whacking down weeds to clear a couple foot wide path to allow me to string electric fence in our forest. Our hogs seem to totally respect the electric fence, and after a month have not gotten out once yet.

I feed them a dozen eggs each day [along with ringing a bell to keep them trained to always come to the bell]. The eggs are from our chickens, and I only give them the bad eggs I have candled so the eggs are garbage anyway. But the hogs love them.

From their size, they should be just slightly over 200 pound each now. My feed bill has dropped to nothing.

They eat birch, alder, beech, fern, raspberry thicket and swamp grass.



Of course next winter any of these hogs I keep will be grain fed again, and it will get expensive. But for summer their feed bill is low.

We have one boar and four sows. I hope to get piglets soon, which will counter the feed bill.


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## moorefarm

The quail
You can sell eggs chicks and birds
He breeds at 7 weeks and ready to eat at 6 weeks.
Only need about a 4X8 platform and you can raise hundreds.


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## ryanthomas

highlands said:


> No, it doesn't work that way in reality. It isn't worth $3/bale until you get the cash in hand and even then you didn't really get $3.
> 
> I hear a lot of people mouthing the phrase above but it is simply wrong. That doesn't take into account the friction in the selling system, the sales taxes where they apply, transportation, etc.


I think I worded that poorly, because I thought I was saying something pretty much along the same lines. I don't know...I've confused myself on this one.


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## rusticfarmer

We have lost money on meat goats, milk goats, emu, rabbits, pheasants, and quail. They were all fun to raise but not profit for us. Then we did well with pigs but we could only keep enough to eat our produce waste. Do well on meat sheep also. I help a lady with her sheep trimming hooves. She in turn gives me lambs that were rejected or trouble for her. I take them to a neighbors ground that is unused and they grow off of 100% pasture all summer. I sell them by fall. Haven't figured out profit but I don't think I really have more than $30-$50 in to them till I sell them. 

Chickens do well for us also we just sprout seeds to feed them and they get produce waste from the farm and our green houses. On occasion we get free organic feed from a farmer and we use it to supplement the sprouts.

We learned when we go into anything just trying to make profit it fails. We only do what we love now and we make a few dollars from time to time.


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## Rectifier

We don't have our livestock yet, buying next year but our neighbours do well on both cattle and meat sheep. We know a guy in his 80s just down the road who has been big into everything and seen it all. He now uses his hog barns as shelters for his sheep. Said the hogs were his biggest mistake ever and he got back into sheep to pay off the losses, and he just sells to a big processor for market rates, not even to consumers.

We considered cattle but are going sheep. If you lose a lamb, no big deal. If you lose a calf it is huge. Also, sheep have a high twinning rate, so you can build up a flock rapidly while still selling lambs, and have a lot of genetics to choose from. To build up a cow herd you have to keep your calves and that is a lot bigger lost income.

During the BSE scare a lot of cattle ranchers here nearly lost it all and many had to fall back to a homesteading ethic or work in the oil patch. Also know plenty of guys who have been busted up pretty bad by cattle, whereas being caught in a 200 head sheep grain stampede didn't even knock me off my feet... there is value in not getting injured. There is a big ethnic market in the cities around here, an undersupply of lamb, and I already have interest in lambs that are not even in the ewe yet  There is even more interest in goats but I hate goats, so no.

Growing all our hay, have lots of pasture and may buy a small amount of feed grain from neighbours just for flushing and creep feed, or trade for hay. Don't buy mixed and pelleted feeds from mills, that is a sure way to go broke.

The debate about hay is not valid to me because I live in the sticks and have a big hayfield. What am I going to do with 150 round bales, ship it all? Once you start paying someone to truck it, you quickly see that it's not a 1 for 1 deal on buying and selling hay. You sell hay for $X and buy hay for $X + shipping... and have to find a buyer who is willing to pay to ship it, or lives in the area. So feeding it to your own livestock is more profitable.


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## bluebird2o2

Im moving too Kansas 500 taxes.im paying over $2000 a year on 34 acres with a house and barn.The house is nothing special built in the late seventies and in bad need of updates.


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## Grumpy old man

There is so much hay here this year it's rotting in the fields , And there are more than a few offering free hay if you'll come and bale it out . 5 years ago hay was expensive and $65.00 round bales had many dumping their livestock for no money at all . I think chickens would be the most profitable due to land needed to raise them ,but you still have to feed them .


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## M88A1

Our hobby farm is part time, on 15 acres. 7 acres in cattle pasture for 4 dexters (1 bull, 3 heifers), 4 acres hay, 1 acres for pigs in smaller 64x64 ft pens american guinnea hogs, 2 dozen chickens for eggs and 3 turkeys. I do usually buy about 6-8 round bales on top of what i get off my land (60/40 hay shares here). I will say our hogs because they reproduce the fastest and deliver more babies, i can have more on smaller space.


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## haypoint

General rule of thumb: Whatever takes the most work, brings the most money. Want more profit from your rabbits? Stop feeding pellets and scythe the roadsides for a few hours each day, store up the hay to feed year around. 
Want to increase profits on your meat goats? Make them into smoked jerky.
As Highlands said, vertical integration.


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## hickerbillywife

I'm glad to hear you say hogs. we recently purchased a pair of red wattle hogs and are expecting our first litter. We have been thinking we make a mistake with them cause the cost of feeding them is getting out of hand. We also have Dexters and I shutter to think what we have spent on hay this winter. It will all be worth it when I get to put some of them on a plate but until then we wait and wonder if we did the right thing. Turkeys and chickens and rabbits as well. I sell puppies to pay for the feed for the animals that will one day feed us. We have often said it is a crazy world when a puppy sells for as much as a cow or a hog.


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## vanet

Jim S. said:


> Ever look around and wonder why all the infrastructure in pastured livestock is cattle and not goats, even though goat is the most widely eaten meat in the world and the US does not produce enough to satisfy its own demand?
> 
> That's because cows make more money with less work and inputs, and that's why the whole pasture livestock world from farm to sale barn to slaughterhouse is built around them. And this is coming from a guy who has spent 22 years raising beef cattle and 21 years raising goats for the mass meat market. I sold the goat herd and goat equipment last year. I just could not justify all the inputs and the huge labor demands it took anymore. What a change in my lifestyle that made! Wow, I have free time now!
> 
> I love and miss goats, but they do not make money as a farmed meat animal when all costs are factored in. That is why so many goat operations are show kid or pet or breeding genetics-oriented. It is also why the typical goat herd is owned for just 3 years on average. To simply farm them like you do cows doesn't pay. I hate to say it, but I have 21 years of experience to prove it.
> 
> We love goat meat. Our herd fed us for years. But it comes down to being easier and more profitable to raise cows and buy goats to slaughter and put in the freezer.
> 
> If you want profits, buy heifers and a young bull as cheap as you can at auction and start there. These are known by some as "mortgage lifters." Raise them up on grass, breed them and use some of the profits from selling the 6-month-old calves to buy better breeding stock as you go. This is a route many a farmer has taken, and in a decade, you will have fine animals and a good operation.
> 
> A 600-pound calf here is almost $800 at the sale barn. It'd take 6 or more goat kids 6-8 months old to equal 1 calf (goat is about $1.50/lb now). So if you sell 10 calves, you'd need at least 60 kids to get the same gross payback. You'll have more inputs in the goats, and more labor cost, if my 21 years of experience counts for anything.


As a cattle rancher, this is the biggest load of bull Ive heard in a while. There are three reasons we raise and eat a lot of beef in this country.

1) Demand we are used to eating beef, so there is a lot higher demand than for sheep or goat.
2) We have a LOT of land that goats just wont survive on. Our ranch is in NM we raise 400 calves to market weight a year on 660 sections. No extra feed at all. 40 goats would starve on the same property. Most of the cattle we consume in this country is raised in 5 states that the land isnt usful for anything else.
3) Labor. cows are able to take care of themselves and there calves for the most part. We loose 4 or 5 a year to odds and ends ie coyotes, wolves, bears, falls etc. The land was homesteaded by my wifes great grandfather and originally it was all sheep in this area. BUT someone had to tend the sheep (and the same would go for goats) 24 7 in order to keep them alive. If they are left for even a week without being tended they are gone. So no in town job (a nesesity with the little amount you make on cows) no vacations no good nights sleep etc. With cows we check on them about once a week, usually when we are fixing fence or doing something else any way. 4 times a year we round up to brand, sell, vaccinate, or move to different pastures.

In Short cows lend themselves to large operations sheep and goat do not.

In a small farm setting that most people are talking about here, demand is the only thing cows have going for them. Chickens, pigs, geese, duck, Turkeys goats and sheep would all be significantly better. In that order.

As a matter of fact my wife and I have made more on a small chicken operation the last few years than the large family cattle Ranch has made.


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## vanet

highlands said:


> Yes, exactly. We slaughter weekly and deliver to stores, restaurants and individuals right away. That way we have very little in the freezer. We deliver fresh. Inventory in the freezer isn't earning money. It costs less to store inventory out in the fields on the hoof and harvest as needed.
> 
> We already have this Just-in-Time farming established and have been doing that for years. But right now my wife gets up at 2 am every week and drives down to Mass to deliver the livestock to the slaughterhouse and pickup the meat from last week's batch. Having our own slaughterhouse, butcher shop and smokehouse will eliminate this long drive as well as saving the cost which is about 36% to 50% of what we make on each pig (depending on smoking, sausage making, etc).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We feed primarily pasture (warm months) and then replace that in the winter with second cut hay that is wrapped round bales lightly fermented. The pigs eat about 400 lbs of hay each per winter. It varies by size, of course. Each sow also uses about 800 lbs over the course of a farrowing between her nest and eating. We also get some lower grade hay for bedding. They eat some of that but prefer the second cut wrapped hay as it is better quality.
> 
> We also feed about 1800 gallons of whey a day. That is mostly water but it has a little bit of lysine, an amino-acid they need for good growth. It also provides some calories and co-digests well with the pasture/hay. Dairy complements the pasture well.
> 
> We've sometimes raised them totally on pasture but the added dairy brings the growth rate to six months. On solely pasture it is about seven to eight months. We also grow pumpkins and such that are easy for us to produce and make for good fall forage when the pastures wane. See Pigs | Sugar Mountain Farm
> 
> 
> 
> We buy no grain. We feed a small amount of bread from a local bakery which we use as a training tool to teach them to walk and load. Since they get so little it is highly appetitive. We get a small amount of boiled barley from a local brew pub. Again, see the link above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, and size not an opinion issue either. There is a legal definition of 749 pigs over 50 lbs or 3,000 under 50 lbs being the upper limit for a small farm. We are far below that limit thus we are definitely a small farm.
> 
> 
> 
> You make too many assumptions about things you don't know. I didn't inherit it. I bought and paid for it myself. Not to have pasture but to have a buffer between me and neighbors, as I explained. The land is there. Being able to do something with it has no additional cost to the land. If I just wanted pasture I would have bought a lot less. I do make use of what I bought, raising plants, animals and doing forestry, as mentioned. That is logical.
> 
> 
> 
> That is the illogic of a banker type thinking and not logical. Where would you put the money? In the stock market and have it dwindle away? In a 401K and have it lose value? In the bank and have inflation eat it up? None of those are wise choices. Study history.
> 
> Putting it in land has definitely been the best move. My land value has gone way up from what I paid. If I had to raise money I could sell some, or more likely I would log a section which is a faster way to raise money that lets me keep the land. I farm trees. If you want to talk investments then land is the best. Of course, not just any land and I'm not talking houses which in some places crashed. Be wise.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, precisely. That's me. I would rather be rich in land. I can live on the land. I can grow food on the land. I can cut trees for fuel. I can raise more than I need and sell the extra to pay taxes or buy things. I can't live on stocks and bonds - They're useless paper. I would have to have a lot more extra money to want to squander it on imaginary assets. I'll stick with _real_ estate.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you're wrong, but you have the right to be wrong. I can do it. I am doing it. You sit there saying it can't be done but I do it. I know that I can use just four acres to produce everything we need. I've done that. I expanded what we were using to about 10 acres and was able to earn enough to pay all our costs. Then once I had the techniques down pat I grew our farm larger. We produce all we need. Don't confuse need with want. That's a classic mistake.
> 
> 
> 
> That mentality is your problem. Classic Wall Street thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, our kids love it here and want to stay here farming. They love the lifestyle. They know it inside and out, from raising animals to the business side to the chemistry of metals and more. They're involved and a part of it.


Ditto what he said!!

We have been provideing all our needs on less than 10 acres for more than 17 years.


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## Toga1116

Interesting thread to read. Lots of good information out there. I've been wondering which way to go with my place...

23 acres up in NE WA. About 8 acres available for hay production, another 10 wooded acres, and the rest of the land for house/5000sq. ft. garden/outbuildings, and a couple acres of pasture. I need a way to make at least $1000/month off that land in addition to growing my own food, milk, and meat. I think the garden is large enough to provide enough vegetables for my family of 4. I have room for a small orchard of apples, cherries, pears, plums....they're in and growing. I "think" I'll only get one cutting of hay...based on what my neighbors tell me and the fact that I can't water it. I'm guesstimating I will get 24,000 lbs of hay from 8 acres in one cutting. I'm probably off on that since I have ZERO experience....all this is purely what I've read.

I don't have any specifics right now because I don't even live on my farm yet. Right now my thoughts are a dozen or so chickens, perhaps a dairy cow, a few goats, maybe a beef cow & calf, and a couple horses. Would like to pasture all of them in the summer and grow enough hay for all in the winter. Would very much appreciate any advice on what livestock to go with or any other ideas for making $1K+/month off my land. I'm sure there's much I don't know about.


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## texican

One of my uncles will buy land, any land he can find... especially if it has pasture (good or bad.... he has the equipment to make it 'good'). He fences it, gates it, and stocks it with cattle, and pays it off in five to ten years, just off calf crops. Next year, he'll be 80, and he's still 'looking'.

Neighbor went to the cattle auction yesterday, wanting to get two dozen stocker heifers.... he left without getting anything, as 250lb calves were going for over a grand... 

Sure, if you had the land, you could put cattle on it, and pay off your land note in just a few years, with the potential of 1500$ for a yearling.

We raise goats.... they're a money pit. If you don't have good fences, you'll have no goats... if you don't have a good guard dog or animal, you'll soon have no goats.... browse is harder to raise than grass... Same uncle with the land and cattle, also raises hogs and goats.... the goats make nothing, when considering their costs. He keeps several hundred, for brush clearing duties. Goat sales are great, but there are a lot of costs, and it's hard to sell one for more than $125, unless it's registered. We've sold $300 bottle babies, but that market isn't 'guaranteed', like the cattle market.


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## farmmaid

Toga1116...........First, make sure that your wife? is on the same page as you!

My thoughts: For YOUR family:
1-12 hens, sell the extra eggs, going rate here is $4.00/doz.
2-a trio of rabbits
3-two milk goats...milk, cheese, meat, sell extra kids
5-skip the horses unless you are knowledgeable to give lessons (extra insurance)
6-barter: get honey for whatever extra you have, offer a baked good once a week for x weeks for a calf to raise (some single farmers are thrilled to get home baked treat)---skip buying a cow
7-raise broilers, we get a 5 pound bird in 7 weeks
8- sell the extra hay (no horses or cows)
9-heat with wood and sell extra
10- garden...can and freeze

Now income each month: I have posted this several times on different forums.

1-Dog Boarding Kennel. Start with 10 kennels at $12-$14 per night per dog. You do the math. We had a kennel for 44 dogs, clean, air conditioned, heated, climate control, full kitchen...lovely. The last year we had the kennel we had 48 days that we were turning people away...that was just 48 days of the year. We were always at least 1/2 full the rest of the year.
2--Dog grooming. Hire a groomer for a % or learn yourself.
3-log your land

................just some suggestions.


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## Skandi

In the UK my farming friends tell me that the way to make profit is to "add value" so you never sell strawberries, you sell jam/jelly or you get a stall and sell strawberries and cream at a summer fair. I have one friend, whose family have 300 head of dairy in Scotland, so all winter the cows are in and need to be fed. They could find no way to turn a profit on milk, so they switched to icecream, and wow. what a change that made. Moral seems to be there's no profit in selling fresh, but plenty if you can find the product and get it to market.

Personaly I've just bought 2.4 acres.. we've no intention to make a profit on it really, we don't need the income, but I would love to make enough to not have to feel as if I need a part time job. $200 a month would be fine. (I have already found a market for goat meat, which is RARE here so expensive I don't even have any goats yet!) Of course I could make more than that elsewhere. I'm a oil geologist I can make a LOT more than that by sneezing, but that isn't the point for me


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## Rustaholic

Well it has been nice to once again read this old topic.

For me I will say most profit has come from 30 Isa brown hens.
30 hens and 30 eggs per day for just over three years.
They were right around 4 1/2 months old when they started laying and for the next three years and six weeks they each gave me one egg per day.
I sold the eggs that we didn't eat for twelve cents per egg.
that money went into a jar. From that jar I bought all of their feed and wood chips for the floor of the hen house and the nest boxes. I also each spring bought weened pigs. I bought all of the pig feed and that egg money also paid over half of the butchering costs for the hogs.
Year one it was four pigs.
Year two it was two pigs
Year three it was three pigs.
So, Those 30 hens paid for nine hogs over the three years I kept them.
Everything I spent to raise the hens and the hogs came from the egg money.
Plus we had all the eggs we wanted.
If I had bought that meat cutting band saw when I had the chance this would have been a lot better. It was $92 to $97 per hog and that butcher shop is gone now. I grew up butchering hogs and steers but I do not want to cut them up with an overgrown hacksaw. When I get my soil in shape to grow the 3-sister gardens I will scrap out a car or two and buy a meat cutting band saw that has a grinder on it.

Oh those hens? I really needed their hen house for storage so I went out there and picked up six of them one at a time. Not one of them had enough meat to be worth butchering them. So I sold them for three bucks per hen. $90 is a lot more than I paid for them so they really were good profit all the way for a small time effort.


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## stanb999

Best way to make a million dollars farming??? Start with 2 :thumb:

Go big?
Spend a fortune on equipment and hire 12 hands?
Value added products... Like buying a commercial kitchen?


Ignore the nonsense. If your product doesn't make money at each price point your losing money or doing it wrong.

If it takes raising hay to make feeding your cattle "profitable" you'd be better to just sell the hay, that's where the profit is.
If it takes making jelly from your strawberries to make a profit, You should make a jelly business and leave the growing to others. Their fruit will be cheaper to produce than yours. It already is.
If you have to sell your wholesale produce at retail to make a "profit", your just keeping store. There are much more lucrative ways to do that.

To answer Toga

With so few acres it will be unlikely that you can turn a profit with any large stock without extensive environmental work. 

See what the other farms in your area are doing for profit. Emulate it. Note this however. Farming pays approx. 10 dollars an hour. for your 1000 a month, you will require 100 hours of work a month.


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## FarmboyBill

I don't know if this has been said or not, but Id imagine, after 5 pages it has been said, maybe more than once.

Some animals grow better, and sell better than others DEPENDING on where there grown and sold.

You youngsters wanting to know what ani

Some of the animals that people have said they did great on, wouldn't sell worth a hoot here in Okla. where I live,

Rabbits don't make anything here in NE Okla, and I imagine its the same for most of the state.

I don't think ive seen a doz sheep here in the 30+yrs ive been here in one herd.

There are MANY goats here, mostly Borhs? I don't see them sell high, but they do sell. Mostly under $100 ea

SOME varities of chickens DO SELL GREAT here, BUT you have to find a BIG sale to sell them at.

Horses don't, for the most part sell worth a hoot here. That tho depends on the amount of hay a good year makes up as opposed to a dry year. There used to be a saying. IOF you go to the livestock auction, take a look at the back of your pk before you leave. You likely got a horse tied to it.

Cows either do good or they do great here, again, depending on the above.

Hay can make you or break you, depending again on the above. IF you raise sorgum sudan grass, as I do, then you have to have a dry year to sell it, or it wont sell. Then, to come out, you have to buy in cows to get rid of it, and then the cows in the spring

Horse hay sells for a fortune here.


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## Rustaholic

stanb999 said:


> Best way to make a million dollars farming??? Start with 2 :thumb:


Thanks Stan, That reminded me of our Michigan State Lottery.
I am not sure how long it lasted but right when they started it they would put the big winners on TV and ask them what they would do with the money.
One older farmer from down state won several million and when they asked him what he was going to do with the money he told them he had a farm and he was about to lose it. He said the farm had used up all of his money and he was way behind so this bit of money would get him out of dept and then he could just keep farming until this is gone too.


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