# Not a great selling point



## paradox (Nov 19, 2012)

Just read an article from a homesteading fb page http://thehomesteadsurvival.com/adventures-offgrid-living-learned-solar/#.Ug4oq6xc5B5

And while she offers a chipper "I have zero utility bills" attitude - the rest of what she describes sounds like sheer madness. I get annoyed when our two solar gates quit working due to several days of cloudy skies. I could not live like she describes and my kids and husband would surely leave me if I tried.

But it made me curious so I came and found this section of the forum which I have never looked at, and I am going to poke around and see if I can find nicer stories of folks living a reasonably comfortable life off grid. 

I am all for learning to be a bit more self sufficient and having things to maintain comfort should bad stuff happen. Like having only a little electricity (as she describes) would be better than none at all should the power go out for weeks due to storms or whatever. But I don't want to live my entire life as if bad stuff has already happened. Does that make sense?


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Keep looking. My wife and I live quite comfortably off-grid. We're selling our place only due to age and wanting to move into a retirement community in the south for milder winters. Take a look at our house-selling web site to see another viewpoint. 

offgrid150.simpl.com

Don


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Unless you have money to burn on a large solar system, that's pretty much the attitude you need to take if you want to go off grid. 

We have an off-grid cabin for weekend/vacation use now and our retirement when the time comes. Yes, you need to think about power conservation all the time. We've been able to handle it mostly taking the attitude that it's our private camping spot. 

If you don't use the power you don't need to generate it.

WWW


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Gray Wolf said:


> Keep looking. My wife and I live quite comfortably off-grid. We're selling our place only due to age and wanting to move into a retirement community in the south for milder winters. Take a look at our house-selling web site to see another viewpoint.
> 
> offgrid150.simpl.com
> 
> Don


Hey Don,

I looked at your webpage. That's a nice house you are selling! I am somewhat familiar with the general area as I have friends in the Priest River, ID area and have spent a little time running around between Newport, WA and Sandpoint, ID. 

I did see a few hints in some of the pics but didn't really see much detail on the solar setup. Would you care to elaborate as to what's there? I did notice a large refrigerator in the kitchen, didn't know if that was electric or whether it was gas. Also noticed a dryer, again, didn't know if that was electric or gas (I suspect gas, but hey, you do have a generator.) Inverter(s)? Batteries? 

Thanks for the additional info!


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## paradox (Nov 19, 2012)

When we lived in town my husband was on the city council. The city was looking into purchasing some windmills to keep water pumping during outages. After much research they determined the cost was outlandish and that even if it worked great the upkeep (required maintenance and inspections I think) and the expected lifespan calculations said it would never "pay for itself" as everyone seems to advertise they will. So the project was dropped and they started looking into solar. But we moved out to the farm about then and he had to resign his council post as we no longer lived in town. I do know they never purchases any solar panels so I am not sure if they discovered it was the same situation or if they tanked it for some other reason.

I find it funny that there is such mixed reviews on this stuff. The hype is that it will all pay for itself in saved money on electrical bills and in a relatively short amount of time. But then others tell stories of living pretty much in the dark ages (like the article) or spending exorbitant amounts of money on a big system (how is that "saving money?") to accomplish that. To me, neither of those is acceptable.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

paradox said:


> When we lived in town my husband was on the city council. The city was looking into purchasing some windmills to keep water pumping during outages. After much research they determined the cost was outlandish and that even if it worked great the upkeep (required maintenance and inspections I think) and the expected lifespan calculations said it would never "pay for itself" as everyone seems to advertise they will.


As long as the grid remains normal, it might never would pay for itself......but if the grid goes down, it would be priceless.

I'd ask "does a city park pay for itself ?"




paradox said:


> The hype is that it will all pay for itself in saved money on electrical bills and in a relatively short amount of time.


As a general rule, it can pay for itself, but not in a short amount of time unless you have really good State and local incentives for alternative energy. So that would be dependent on where one lives.



paradox said:


> But then others tell stories of living pretty much in the dark ages (like the article)


There are people that live in "tiny houses" ( like 200sqft ).....that isn't for me, but it works for them. Same with electrical power. We use the national average....about 900kw/hrs/month. But there are folks that get quite nicely on 50. Lot depends on lifestyle.




paradox said:


> or spending exorbitant amounts of money on a big system (how is that "saving money?") to accomplish that. To me, neither of those is acceptable.


I guess I'd be in the exorbitant amount of money category, having spent about $30k on our 11,000watt system.

But...30% of that came back in the form of federal tax credit....so that knocks it down to 21k.

It saves us about 100 month on our electric bill, and generates another 120/mo in revenue from excess power production.....so 220/mo. Actually, since I don't have the earn and pay taxes on a $150mo to HAVE the 100 left to pay the electric bill, I figure it saves us $270/mo.

That is 3,000/yr. Payback is 7 years. AND that assumes electrical costs don't rise in the next 7 years.....and since Obama has declared war on coal fired electric power, odds are it will rise, and rise significantly.....which doesn't matter, as our costs are now fixed for a long time. In 10 years, I'm STILL not gonna have an electric bill, but my guess is 900kw/hrs is going to cost a whole lot more than $100. It already does many places around the country.

AND ( here is the biggie ), about half my system is battery backup based. SHOULD something happen to the power grid, I have a shot ( not guaranteed ) at having a basic amount of power ( about 400kw/hr/mo ) and can live with that.


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## paradox (Nov 19, 2012)

Thank you TNAndy. That is a good breakdown of numbers. Very helpful. Can you add any info on realistic servicing costs and expected lifespan for panels and batteries? I don't know anything about them but I know that in electric cars the batteries go bad before you get to the "pays for itself" date and the cost for new ones is a huge expense. Do the batteries or solar cells need replacing and how often? We have had our solar gates for about 3 years and are having to replace the batteries already.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Bellyman said:


> Hey Don,
> 
> I looked at your webpage. That's a nice house you are selling! I am somewhat familiar with the general area as I have friends in the Priest River, ID area and have spent a little time running around between Newport, WA and Sandpoint, ID.
> 
> ...


We have eight 235 watt panels and sixteen 6 volt batteries feeding a 24 volt inverter. With the exception of 24 volt ceiling fans, the house is wired 'normaly'.

The downstairs refrig is gas and the stainless one upstairs is electric. Dryer is gas. Both ranges are gas - 10 burners, 3 ovens, salamander, and 24" griddle. Backup heat is gas. Instant hot water is gas.

Gas comes from 1,150 gal tank that we top off in the summer. We use about 600 gal per year. We entertain a LOT (like 34 people staying for a weekend and a Saturday night sit-down dinner) so gas usage is higher than it needs to be.

Actually we have 3 generators. One 8,000 watt one is dedicared to running the well pump a couple of times a month to fill the 1,000 storage tank up the hill - then gravity feeds house using no power. I alternate usage on the two smaller gens that are used for cloudy day charging.

Satellite tv and internet. 6' cell phone antennas and amplifier system. Nearest utility wires about a mile away. We are about 3 miles up unpaved county road and 11 miles from town. Love it!

We built the house and installed solar ourselves (with inspections and permits) so cost was quite a bit less than hiring it done.

Don


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## paradox (Nov 19, 2012)

Gray Wolf said:


> We have eight 235 watt panels and sixteen 6 volt batteries feeding a 24 volt inverter. With the exception of 24 volt ceiling fans, the house is wired 'normaly'.
> 
> The downstairs refrig is gas and the stainless one upstairs is electric. Dryer is gas. Both ranges are gas - 10 burners, 3 ovens, salamander, and 24" griddle. Backup heat is gas. Instant hot water is gas.
> 
> ...


It sounds like a set up that would allow a more "normal" life off grid. However it also sounds like it may have cost a fortune to set it up and therefore in the long run isn't actually any cheaper than being on grid. Is that correct or do you think that with all costs and equipment lifespan included it might have been comparable to having regular utilities (had they been available)? That is what I am trying to get at. We have regular utilities. What we are getting is bombarded with folks trying to convince us that going off grid would save us money. And from everything I can find it is either live uncomfortably, or spend way more than we are spending now to keep the same comfort level going. But I am trying to ask for input of folks who have actually done it before I make up my mind completely. The companies who sell the products are of course a bit biased and they seem to hide a lot of costs by just not mentioning things that will wear out or need servicing.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

The cost to extend the power lines to our property in 2004 would have been $63,000. We have about $15,000 in parts in our system so our payback was measured in seconds.

But seriously, or as close as I ever get, payback may well never happen in your lifetime if you are on the grid now and pay for the install.

Run numbers very carefully if that is the case.

Conservation and lifestyle changes pay back far faster. Do that first. 

FYI, our biggest single power user is TV. Put your hand in front of yours. Warm? Heat is power. Toaster etc is short duration use so ok. Crock pots and electric stoves not ok. TV, sat box, dvd player run for hours at a time. If you want noise for company, turn on radio.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

paradox said:


> *We have regular utilities.*


That right there is a key factor. 

In a case like Gray Wolf, it's almost a no brainer.....while off grid IS more expensive, it takes a long time for that extra expense ( mainly replacing batteries ) to over come the $48,000 difference he would have had to shell out to get grid power brought to his place. As he says, his payback was one second after they cut the system on. :grin:





paradox said:


> What we are getting is bombarded with folks trying to convince us that going off grid would save us money. And from everything I can find it is either live uncomfortably, or spend way more than we are spending now to keep the same comfort level going. But I am trying to ask for input of folks who have actually done it before I make up my mind completely. The companies who sell the products are of course a bit biased and they seem to hide a lot of costs by just not mentioning things that will wear out or need servicing.



I too, have grid power at my house, and have since we built it. They had to run the line about 1/2 mile and dozen poles to get up here, but at that time ( 1983 ), all I had to do was sign an agreement to buy some minimum amount of power for 3 years, and there was no charge. Hey....SIGN ME UP !

TODAY, that would have cost about $15,000 as they have changed policy.


The reason I ventured into solar was simple.....I firmly believe the power grid could suffer breakdowns, or even total collapse in the future. And the ability to have a small amount ( few hundred kw/hrs/month ) is the difference in living in the 20th century compared to all those previous centuries. You may or may not believe that. It may or may not happen. Not here to sell Gloom and Doom, I'm just an old Boy Scout, and just flat believe the motto: Be Prepared.

Even in normal condition, we live in a area that has been prone to power loss for as much as 10 days due to storms taking trees down on the lines. 10 days is a long time to run little generators to keep your freezers working ( we have several ) and such. I switched to propane for cooking and water heating back in the 90's to be independent of electric power for those, and we heat with wood, but even assuming we cut out entertainment items ( TV, etc ) and convenience items ( like microwave or dryer ), having SOME electric power is just flat handy. ( Lights, some refrigeration, washing machine, etc )

So, I put in a system initially that I hoped would produce 300kw/hrs/month that was grid tied, so it cut some of our power bill, but also had battery backup ability ( a so called "hybrid" system ) so if the grid was down, I flip a transfer switch and we operate using the "off grid" side of the system.

The initial system was 2100watts. It produced close to my 300kw/hr goal in the summer, but in the winter, it was as low as 150. So I soon expanded with more panels ( the rest of the system was already set up to handle more, so adding panels was fairly easy ), going to 3500watts. That pretty much did the trick unless we got a REALLY lousy weather period.

But as I came to understand my system ( really knew little about this going in ), I realized my twin inverters would handle 5,000watts continuous and I was under utilizing them at 3500. ( Actually with 3500w in panel, you rarely see over 3000 in output ). And since MOST of the time we are back feeding to the grid and getting paid a premium to do so, all I needed to do was max out the inverters with more panels. So Array # 3 was born. That made 5950watts on the battery side. The extra 950w allows for some internal losses and still get close to maxing out my power back to the grid.

That zeroed out our electric bill back in 2011, NOT because we produced 900kw/hrs/mo ( our use ), but due to the premium that the power company pays for solar power ( 12 cents over retail, has separate meter for the solar infeed ). 

Looking ahead, as I always am, that premium goes away in another 6 years....SO if we want to continue to have no bill, as well as use the premium pay to help pay for expansion, now was the time to do it.

And I did.

But this time, adding 20 more panels that are grid tied ONLY....complete separate system tied only at the metering point. Using micro inverters ( Enphase ) on the back of each panel, the installation was a breeze compared to battery based side. Now we will produce ( I think....the last part of this system I just put in in June of this year, so I don't have winter data yet ) right at or slightly over, what we use. That's my goal. I'm done.


Whether solar is right for YOU is dependent on a LOT of factors. As you state, you have grid power now. It's cheap, it's about 99.9% dependable (most places). So you have to look at other factors.

1. Does your State/local offer any incentives. Everybody qualifies for the 30% federal credit, assuming you pay income taxes. ( That ends Dec/2016 by the way )

2. Can you do your own installation ? Companies will charge in the $2/watt range to install for you, again, area dependent. Some places the permit process is outrageous expensive, other places, nothing much ( our was about 20 bucks )

3. Are you a "prepper" and feel some solar would be handy, or do you believe our current way of life has no chance of change ?


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

It is a shame if you base 'off grid' living to that article you linked to.......
That youngster idiot has a huge amount of growing up / maturing to do.....
She is a ding bat.....
The world is coming to an end because she can't use her masterbation tool......wow-eee
She can jump in on FB and post stupid things . . . . .but she didn't do her home work before jumping off grid with a system which is too small.

There are many who post on HT who have found happiness living comfortably -without a curling iron--who brew coffee without a 1000 watt energy hog......

So if your crew can not give up such as a curling iron, then forget about "off grid"....

And don't cast aspersions on those of us who do just fine with our renewable energy systems that we have learned to live with..................


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

I live quite comfortable on 512 watts of panel and propane fridges. I have everything I need to be content. I could expand a little and include a washer and drier but the laundry mat is just up the road. Ain't no big deal, being it's something that me and the lady can do together instead of goin' to the mall. I have a wringer washer and a genny so it isn't like I couldn't do it here. Just saves water, being I collect it from my roof and I don't have a well.. By choice..

The lady has a butane curling iron if she wants to spiff up. A 12 volt fan makes a dandy hair drier. There are alternatives if you have the will. Might take some adjustments in your thinkin' but anything is possible. It's a state of mind..

It's a scarey thing to jump from the grid after it's the only thing that you know. It's hard to justify it in numbers and the math will make you run for sure! To think of replacing the grid and to operate things "as normal" as you do now, you better dig deep..

I live at the total opposite end of the spectrum. I've cut out everything that I possibly could to avoid the need for the grid. There isn't many off grid folks like me and most couldn't imagine how I do it. But, that's OK.. I'm happy. I still watch my DVD's on a 74" projection TV with surround sound. I just gotta plan to do it..


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

Gray Wolf said:


> We have eight 235 watt panels and sixteen 6 volt batteries feeding a 24 volt inverter. With the exception of 24 volt ceiling fans, the house is wired 'normaly'.
> 
> The downstairs refrig is gas and the stainless one upstairs is electric. Dryer is gas. Both ranges are gas - 10 burners, 3 ovens, salamander, and 24" griddle. Backup heat is gas. Instant hot water is gas.
> 
> ...


Grey Wolf you have a mighty fine place there! Most people have no idea what it cost to set something like that up and also to maintain. You should have no problems with the right person coming along. I'm sorry you are having to sell your dream house though. On another thread TnAndy and others have tackled what we ALL will do with these monsters that we have created as we age out. I'm still working on that one.

I wish you luck on your warmer move.... Thanks for sharing.


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## catspjamas (Jul 14, 2013)

I wouldn't judge solar power by that person's blog. She didn't go off grid as a personal lifestyle choice, she moved to Hawaii and apparently it was solar or nothing. Being able to live off grid is a mind set. I was off grid for 5-1/2 months last year while I was unemployed. It was pay the mortgage or pay the power bill. I paid the mortgage and let them turn off the electricity. In March, in the mountains. I have a wood stove and my water source doesn't need electricity to operate, so I had heat and running water. Heated water on the wood stove to bathe and wash my hair, took clothes to the laundry mat, used oil lamps for lights, used a propane cook stove and cooler with ice to store food. I charged my cell phone in the car as I drove. What did I miss most in those 5-1/2 months? Hot running water. Yes, after I got a job, I had my power turned back on. But I know I can turn it off and still survive.


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## paradox (Nov 19, 2012)

Jim-mi said:


> It is a shame if you base 'off grid' living to that article you linked to.......
> That youngster idiot has a huge amount of growing up / maturing to do.....
> She is a ding bat.....
> The world is coming to an end because she can't use her masterbation tool......wow-eee
> She can jump in on FB and post stupid things . . . . .but she didn't do her home work before jumping off grid with a system which is too small


I don't base my ideas of off grid living solely off this article. And yes I agree she sounds like a real idiot. But her descriptions of not being able to use fairly common household appliances was the part that made me reference the article.



Jim-mi said:


> There are many who post on HT who have found happiness living comfortably -without a curling iron--who brew coffee without a 1000 watt energy hog


That is why I asked the question here. I have been poking around info about wind and solar for a couple years now. Can't make myself make the jump on either because I am seeing such conflicting info on what you can expect for what amount of money. I am looking for real money costs paired with what that buys you from the people who actually use it, rather than someone trying to sell it (who therefore isn't real honest about cost vs capability).



Jim-mi said:


> So if your crew can not give up such as a curling iron, then forget about "off grid"


I am not interested in going off grid completly. What we are looking at is the possibility of having something in place for those times when we are having brown outs or storms or whatever. But when you inquire about a system, they of course try to talk you into how this super huge system can run your whole house cheaper than regular electricity. They try to convince you that the whole house system is much smarter than the back up system because of course they are salesmen. I am just trying to cut through some of the BS. I came here to ask the experts.



Jim-mi said:


> And don't cast aspersions on those of us who do just fine with our renewable energy systems that we have learned to live with..................


I was not casting aspersions on anyone. I don't look down on people who live an off grid life or any kind of life for that matter. But please also don't look down on me and my family for not wanting to give up toasters and curling irons. I never meant to imply there was something wrong with people living without those conveniences (because that is all they are - convenience - not necessities), I am just saying it is not how we want to live and we are trying to figure out what would fit our lifestyle and if it is worth the money that would cost. If my post somehow offended you, I assure you that was not the intent. I am just trying to get answers from people with experience in this.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Off grid is about lifestyle as much as it is about electricty. We have toasters, internet, tv, curling iron, electric coffee pots, microwaves, hair dryers, clothes washer/dryer, etc, *BUT* living off grid means that you are aware of power in the batteries, sunny or cloudy day, time of day, weather forecast, *BEFORE* you turn something on. You don't start a load of wash, do ironing while watching tv and brew a pot of coffee at 9:00 pm. You plan usage around the resource. Not hard to do but a huge change from a consuming lifestyle.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

One more thing for those just looking into solar. There are basically three systems.

Grid tied - no batteries and therefore no power when the grid goes down. But you are selling power to the utility co when the sun shines. Cheapest.

Off grid - batteries to run things but no chance of selling power. More cost.

Hybrid - batteries for when the grid goes down and also hooked to grid to sell power. Most cost.

Panels last a LONG time. Batteries can last 10 days or 10 years depending on how you treat them. Learn about batteries.

Know what kind of system you want and flog the internet doing research before talking to salesmen.

Don

offgrid150.simpl.com


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## KeepingItAtHome (Jun 17, 2013)

My inlaws have been living off grid for several years (there's no grid available where they are) Mostly their solar and don't have a problem since they have an array of batteries. Energy gets stored up in the batteries and used as needed so when it's overcast they still have energy. Only a few times have they had to ration.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Gray Wolf's system is far larger than the ding-bat in the linked to article above.
Up front he paid for and built a system--Large enough--to be able to use all those mentioned electrical goodies.
On a good sized system that I installed, the customer installed an --gasp--electric stove in the apartment, on one end of a very large barn........
On hot sunny days I can run an air conditioner. In the winter I run electric resistance heaters........
Yes you have got to have the right attitude going in . . . . .to live off grid.

Learning how to ration is a big issue..............


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Gray Wolf does have a nice system. 

I get frustrated at advertisements in magazines (have seen several lately) that advertise that you can replace the power company completely with a 250 watt panel and a pair of golf cart batteries. Um... yeah, right. NOT!!

A person can pretty much do anything they want off grid and have all the electricity that they can use in a normal household setting... IF they spend the $$$$$$$$$$$$$ to make it happen. Using things like whole house air conditioning, lots of large refrigeration units, electric stoves and dryers... are actually possible IF, and I repeat IF you're willing to pay for what it takes to make them happen. Very few people have that kind of money to throw at a photovoltaic system. Possible, yes. Practical, not even close. The battery bank would be huge and you'd probably have panels in the hundreds. System cost would probably be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

(Actually, the only setups I've seen like this typically move energy into other storage mediums such as making hydrogen out of water from electricity and storing the hydrogen for later use either directly... like a gas stove... or for use in a fuel cell to convert back to electricity. But that's another story.)

So we kinda have to make choices as to what we are willing to pay for and what we're willing to live without. Most people just don't want to live on the kind of power they'd be confined within if having only a 200 or 300 watt system. Most people have sticker shock when they see the prices on 3000 to 5000+ watt systems. Yes, panel prices have come down, I've seen them just below $0.70/watt if do some serious looking. A dozen panels are still gonna cost you. With decent golf cart batteries north of $100 each, 8 of them are gonna set you back a grand. Oh, and an inverter for a system like that,... um... you're not gonna pick up one of them at Walmart for $79. We're talking thousands for a good pure sine wave inverter. And we haven't gotten to extremely heavy wiring, charge controlers, panel mounting, or venting for your battery bank.

I really like a good quality and well built off grid setup that's well designed for the job it's expected to do. Where most fail is "sending a boy to do a man's job". If all you need is something to run a few lights in the evening, it won't take much of a system to work well. If you want to run a house full of electric appliances, that little system is gonna fail miserably. Nothing wrong with the system. You wouldn't expect to haul tons of freight on a daily basis in a Honda Civic, would you?

Probably preachin' to the choir...


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Bellyman said:


> Gray Wolf does have a nice system.
> 
> I get frustrated at advertisements in magazines (have seen several lately) that advertise that *you can replace the power company *completely with a 250 watt panel and a pair of golf cart batteries. Um... yeah, right. NOT!!


Yeah, there is some scammer operating out of Nashville, TN that has ads all over the place about how the "power companies are scared this information"......"watch my 10 minute video ( that turns into about a 25 minute one.....ought to tell you something about his credibility right there ) on how to do this".....NOT that you ever get much of clue from watching it.

Pure baloney.


AND then, of course, there are the $3000 "Solar Generators", the roll around box with battery or two and an inverter, coupled with a 100-200 watts of panel, that would make it seem you can replace a 1500-2000watt gasoline generator.....which you can.....for about 20-30 minutes......on a REALLY sunny day.....

The problem is the vast majority of folks aren't technically inclined, and don't understand electric power, and what it takes to produce it. They know you plug an appliance in, and it works. That's OK.....you don't have to know how to build a watch to tell time. But it gets them in hot water when salesmen ( who usually know even less ) try to separate them from their money.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Yup . . Between those knuckle head scammer's "You can be totally free from the grid for ever and ever, with our inky-rinky----- solar generator, and dim-wits posting the bull-roar from the link as posted at the top of this thread, they sure are harming the solar industry ......

Thank goodness there still is a lot people capable of using the gray matter between their ear lobes........


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## unregistered358967 (Jul 17, 2013)

Well, I for one, really appreciate all the info in this thread and am learning as I go because I'm considering a place that is solar only (with 4 batteries). There's so much info out there and it's nice hearing from people who have BTDT.

Thanks everyone.


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## paradox (Nov 19, 2012)

I got a lot out of it too. It is hard to wade through all the salesman hype and idiot BS on stuff like this. I keep brushing it aside because I get so frustrated. Then something happens or I see some new article and my curiosity gets going again.


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## katlupe (Nov 15, 2004)

Our system is small, but we are not living in the dark ages either. We have been able to add a refrigerator (DC) this year, but had to save for it by not using one for 6 years. I love it and it has changed our life. Before the end of the year we will be adding running water to our house and that means we can start using our washing machine. It is not that we wanted to live in the dark ages. It is just that we had to for a period of time, in order to be able to buy the things we needed. I don't feel as if we have suffered at all. In fact, we have never had a power outage unless something happened to one of our components. We used to light our house with the kerosene lamps, but haven't used one in years now. Our lights are energy efficient powered by our small system, as is our computers which are on all day, every day. No suffering here.


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