# Hiring a groomer and dogs that bite



## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

I have an elderly dog who needs his very thick winter coat stripped out desperately. He's mumble-teens years old. (I've had him thirteen years and I'd put him at fifteen to seventeen. He could even be older than that. He's in great shape physically, though.)

He HATES being brushed and stripping his winter coat out is the worst thing in his world. In the past, it's always been a battle. I'm physically disabled with dystonia and a bad back, and I just don't feel like a wrestling match with him. I do have a muzzle and use it routinely with him, but he's still a big, strong dog.

In the past, I've either sedated him or just wrestled him down, sat on him and brushed him. I'm wary of sedating him now due to his age, and my own health issues make a wrestling match a daunting prospect. 

If I hire a groomer, am I liable if he bites the groomer? I spoke to a groomer today and she seemed horrified when I said he would need to be muzzled, and she claimed she could work with any dog without 'trauma to the dog.' She said she never used sedation and she had ways of calming dogs down. She looked like she's all of twenty.

I'm not worried about trauma to the dog. I'm worried about trauma to the groomer, LOL. I CANNOT afford to be sued if my dog chomps on the groomer. 

Note -- he's not as bad as this makes him sound. He's a GREAT guard dog and general farm dog, and he's earned his place. He's not a "pet" -- he's a working boy whose job in life has been to chase off predators. He's never broken the skin or left a bruise on anyone, but he does get snappy and snarly if he's afraid or he's hurting. I have always assumed with him that if he was ever given a chance and sufficient provocation, he WOULD bite hard, due to his behavior. 

My other option would be to have a vet sedate and groom him, but that would be much more expensive.

Option #3 is to suck it up, take an extra muscle relaxer, and do it myself, then spend the rest of the day in bed ...

(I can groom ALL my other animals and do anything needed. I have cats who will lay in my lap and purr when I clip their claws. Oliver is just is a pill to work with as far as grooming goes. He acts like I'm killing him if I tug on his hair in the slightest.)


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## maggiemom (Feb 19, 2007)

I understand your plight .I have found that my furry children (much like my human ones) behave better for others than they do for me . They will act as though I was ripping their nails out by the roots when I attempt to trim them and yet when I have them at the vet they all but hold out their paws as if to say" would you please trim theses nails for me -SHE won't !" So having said that the young groomer may very well be able to groom your old boy-I can groom my friends dogs easier than my own .Take the muzzle with you so it's available should she need it and even hang around for a while if it's ok with her. I adopted an adult GSD in Dec and I finally had some success trimming her nails yesterday -only took 1hr ! Only have 5 nails left to do too ! Should have seen the two of us in the bathtub together for her first bath-took a bit of convincing to get her in there to say the least -lol I did get out of the tub before the actual washing started 
Anyway hope this helps some
Aileen


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## Marleydexlola (May 24, 2012)

I would try and find a different groomer if it was me... There are plenty out there that "can calm any dog" but who knows? And it's not worth getting sued!
Find a groomer that is comfortable with him having a muzzle on and has experience with unruly dogs...
I used to train/daycare/boarding etc and (at least in my experience) groomers can either be great and go with te flow of your dog and take precautions as necessary, or you can get the groomer that deals primarily with spoiled lap dogs and will go pale at the sight of a big aggressive (at least looking) dog...
Don't break your back, just fin someone your comfortable with

Best of luck


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## Marleydexlola (May 24, 2012)

I would try and find a different groomer if it was me... There are plenty out there that "can calm any dog" but who knows? And it's not worth getting sued!
Find a groomer that is comfortable with him having a muzzle on and has experience with unruly dogs...
I used to train/daycare/boarding etc and (at least in my experience) groomers can either be great and go with te flow of your dog and take precautions as necessary, or you can get the groomer that deals primarily with spoiled lap dogs and will go pale at the sight of a big aggressive (at least looking) dog...
Don't break your back, just fin someone your comfortable with

Best of luck


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## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

Find a groomer who will groom him with a muzzle. 
Vets sometimes have groomers and they usually aren't AR types who think a muzzle is 'bad' or 'wrong'. If he is freaking out and just nuts, then find a vet w/groomer and ask for the dog to be sedated first.


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## Allen15 (Apr 18, 2013)

Dogs feed off of the anxiety and emotions of those around them, so if ANY groomer is not comfortable working with your dog, they're probably the WRONG groomer for that dog...


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

He's worse for others than he is for me. 

He was abused before I got him -- with plenty of evidence to go by to prove that, including a phobia of sticks/brooms/shovels and a tendency to duck first, ask questions later, when it comes to sudden movements. The first time I tried to throw a frisbee for him, he ran and hid behind the house.

He's LOTS better now, but I'm his Trusted Person and he's wary of strangers. His issues stem from purely from fear and an extreme sensitivity to pain (including the presumably mild pain caused by brushing.)

My vet once had the lovely experience of washing his ears once, when he had a yeast infection. It took three people, including me, to get the job done. (Plus the muzzle.) The vet asked if I wanted ace to do follow up treatments at home. I bought the ace, but was able to clean his ears without it, just by gently working him through it. He was a terror at the vet's.

So ... I figure he's going to be a complete monster for a groomer.

And speaking of animal rights types -- I went into Petsmart today to get him a bark collar. We just moved, and he's barking at everything, anything, and nothing. He's deaf from old age, and has developed a very loud bark in a pitch that could break glass, presumably because he can't hear himself. He definitely can't hear my, "Quiet!" -- he was trained to quiet on command, but that doesn't work when the dog doesn't hear you. 

I want to nip the barking in the bud, as it's REALLY bad. And he's worn a no-bark collar before, when I first got him and had the same bark-at-the-world issue. 

The girl who showed me where the no bark collars were suggested a sonic device that makes an unpleasant noise. I explained the dog was DEAF. She responded, "But the noise is in a frequency only dogs can hear." I repeated the dog was DEAF AS A STUMP. 

She said, "I've always thought the shock collars are cruel. You could always return the sonic emitter if it doesn't work ..."

*head desk*


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

The vet can give him a mild sedative without completely knocking him out. This would be less stressful for the dog too. If he took 3 people to handle at the vet's then be sure to choose a grooming shop that has more than one groomer. Take the muzzle with too, and offer to help. Just did an old collie yesterday that bites. Owner said muzzle to brush and she was right. Hopefully that naive groomer you called doesn't get injured bad enough to put her out of commission before she wises up.


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

*Find a groomer that knows dogs, and be ready to work yourself!*
Not one that thinks they know dogs, The most important communication about the dog, ""You the one that loves and cares for it""*they have already disregarded? *
Here is what I would suggest!
Explain all of this game plan to new groomer ahead of time.
The dog trusts you, put the muzzle on the dog, you in front of dog holding head, so they can see you. 
Have groomer come in (NOT FROM BEHIND DOG) you to exchange pleasantness, groomer pets dog. 
Slide 1 hand under dogs chin back till you can feel the throat and point of the jaw. Dont babytalk, sweet talk or coddle him, just tell him it is alright. You will be able to feel if the dog gives that little tongue flick or swallows. (The quick tongue flick or swallow indicates he accepts you as alpha) All the while the groomer has been petting him. 
Now just move a brush into that hand and start stripping, I'm not saying it is going to be easy. Just my idea of the best approach to keep everyone safe, without drugging the dog. 
*Another approach, you could do by yourself would be to use a steel breeding stand, but you would have to heavily pad the back stirrup, and mount the stand on a platform so the dog cant just walk away with it. *

If the groomer you spoke of 1st were that good with dogs they would not be a groomer they would have a training operation going. Lets see around here it is $150 for 6 weeks of classes, with class size limited to 20 dog handler teams. Private home sessions are on ave, 2-4 times the class rate.


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## BlackWillowFarm (Mar 24, 2008)

I'm a professional groomer with 15 years experience and I own my own shop. There is so much to be covered here about your dog and getting him groomed, but one piece of info I would like to share is this. He probably won't be as bad for the groomer as he is for you. I agree you should look for a groomer who will use a muzzle if needed. There's nothing wrong with using a muzzle and groomers who resist them are putting themselves at unnecessary risk of getting bitten. You could ask to stay with your dog during the process and I wouldn't use a groomer who say's you can't stay. Just because the groomer is willing to let you stay doesn't mean you should. Some dogs won't settle down with their owners in the shop. But just the fact that the groomer will let you stay if you want to say's a lot about them.

Your dog will feed off your emotions on grooming day. If you are convinced your dog will be terrible, he probably will be. If you go in with the attitude he'll do okay and be okay while he's there it will help more than you realize. The worst thing an owner can do is come into the shop in a tense frame of mind and reluctantly turn the dog over to the groomer. The dog senses it and acts accordingly.

Also, find a groomer with some years of experience under their belt. They will help you feel better about it and also help your dog feel better about being groomed.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Just went back and reread your post. "He's a GREAT guard dog and general farm dog, and He's never broken the skin or left a bruise on anyone, but he does get snappy and snarly if he's afraid or he's hurting. I have always assumed with him that if he was ever given a chance and sufficient provocation, he WOULD bite hard, due to his behavior. " 
In being a guard dog he is there for to keep strangers away? But he is supposed to tolerate a stranger grooming him? It's too late for your dog, but this is one of the reasons I spend a lot of time socializing my dogs and teaching them to accept strangers handling them. Teeth on people is a big no no. This isn't just for my safety and liability, but for those the dog might come in contact in his lifetime as well as his future.


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

Wendle, he was a badly abused adult when I got him. I've worked with him extensively, but he is what he is. You can't always undo early trauma and neglect entirely. He'll always be a fearful dog.

I strongly believe in early socialization and training, but he wasn't mine as a pup.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Frustrating when they are like that. It is good of you to give him a home despite his issues. Some of my clients have second hand dogs like that. One just last week is a 7 year old puppy mill rescue Llasa. Talk about an attitude.


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

Yeah, I wish I could have gotten him young. I can see what he might have been if he'd been raised right.

He never would have made it in a pet home; he was pretty rough and wild when I got him. I ended up with a dog who I could trust around all other animals and who'd bark at strangers (without actually being vicious -- I wanted a canine burglar alarm, not a protection dog) and who would run off small to medium size predators. He got a home where he's lived outside with livestock and poultry, had a large fenced property, and had his needs met. It worked out.

Most of the time, he's a loveable goofball. It's just when I do things that trigger his fears that he can be a handful.

Makes me grateful for the heeler-x-aussie I have, though, who was a bottle fed puppy and who's never been mistreated a day in her life. I got her at ten months (her first owners lived in an apartment ...), and she'd never had any obedience training but she'd never been abused, either, and she'd been around dogs, cats, strangers, kids, etc. and she'd walked on a leash and had gone for car rides and all that good stuff. She just needed a crash course in obedience, but picked things up lightning quick. She's my 'perfect dog' -- I can take her anywhere and do anything with or to her, and she's fine with it.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Marleydexlola said:


> I would try and find a different groomer if it was me... There are plenty out there that "can calm any dog"


I second this. Pretty much any dog can be groomed. You just need a groomer who knows how to handle them.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

From my years as a professional groomer, biting is an occupational hazard. If you tell the groomer that the dog has bitten and has needed a muzzle in the past, and they accept it for grooming, then you're not liable - but you could always ask a lawyer in your state to be sure.

As a groomer, I would probably NOT need a muzzle. You've _no_ idea the number of people who have told me that their dogs need muzzles and Cujo did nothing worse then wiggle the whole time.
 It is roughly equal to the number of people who assured me that Fluffykins wouldn't harm a fly before handing over a snarling, bloodthirsty hellhound. (not always a small fluffy thing either)

But often even Fluffykins calms right down once he's up on the table and being handled by someone who speaks dog. The dog is almost never as bad for the groomer as for the owner.

But, unlike the above groomer, if you tell me that your dog is likely to be hard to handle, you are NOT welcome in the room. You can watch through a window if you want - I've got nothing to hide - but if you're in the room, the dog is going to feed off you, react to you and all the unconscious signals you give. Not that it's only unconscious signals, no one (including me  ) can resist at least speaking to the dog, if not trying to handle it. 
When my vet tells me they are going to do XYZ and could I please leave, I do so, for that very reason. And yes, even knowing that it will be faster and easier on everyone, I still don't like it. But I do it, because I love my dog, and it _really_ is easier on them.

So do both of you a favor, find a good groomer, drop the dog off and go out to lunch. You'll both feel better.


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

I have been grooming 28 years and I trust the owners who say they have a dog that needs muzzling. I have gotten a few dogs to not need it except for their nails or other idiosyncric issues but when an owner is adamant about the muzzling I will start with the muzzle and work on the issues as trust is formed. You need to find a groomer who will work with you and stick to that groomer. Bring him in for occasional brushing so he can build up a trust relationship with the groomer. It sounds as if he did not get proper socialization before you got him and that is a stem issue here. He has learned to trust you over time but the lack of socialization is the problem- I find it more of an issue than straight out abuse. 

I do a flock guardian and she is muzzled the whole time and her owner stays while we do the brushing etc. I tend to find she has the same sensitive skin issues because she won't let them brush her regularly either. Talk to the groomer see if they have a high velocity dryer-with this ***** I dampen her coat with a spritzer of water and conditioner then HV her to loosen the coat up and blow it out then I brush later. I will also clip or cut out any bad matting to avoid pulling on her skin. It works well takes about 30 minutes to get a good coat removal and they leave. I have never bather her nor do I suggest it ,it would be too much for her to deal with. 

I hope you find someone you can work with. If someone tell syou they do not ever muzzle I worry about what they do to avoid getting bit. A muzzled dog is sometimes calmer as it knows it is restricted. Any groomer who has been bit will know that a muzzle is a tool to be used just like any other piece of equipment. A lot of this anti muzzling attitude comes from the corporate stores who worry about what people are going to think if they see a muzzled dog which I think is ---- stupid! Certain dogs will do themselves more injury with the Groomers Helper than a muzzle .


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## Akitas-Flemish (Apr 24, 2013)

If he doesnt mind loud noises you could always get a dryer and do it yourself
i have akitas and while Vix has been stacked on a table and forced to deal with it from say one, Zak has not. Zak lays down until i got that spot then goes nuts and kicks his feet =] All dogs react differently to it, maybe he would like it? They dryer can also blow out the matted undercoat, then cut the worse out. Ive done that to chows, matted in the butt then just blow it out with a dyer/brush if he can tolerate it-also not sure how much you can tolerate.
i would not trust either of my dogs with a groomer, Zak is wary of people at the BEST of times-if im not in the room Vix will cry and get aggressive because she thinks someone is hurting me.


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

From two decades of professional grooming, I wouldn't let you stay either. You already have the attitude that he will be horrible and thus you'll be telling him you expect him to behave horribly, and he'll feed off it. You can say "I won't" but if you BELIEVE it, so will he.

I would not recommend using a groomer who doesn't ever use muzzles. I would make certain that they understand the dog is a biter. Don't say "Oh he doesn't break the skin" or anything to negate the fact that the dog bites. That may give them a sense that the dog is really harmless. 

A experienced groomer who is good with dogs SHOULD be able to groom him without too much issue as long as you don't wind him up beforehand. They will work with him to keep him calm and get him groomed. If he's too bad, they should call you and say "Sorry but we could only get this much done.." There's no shame in not getting a dog done if it's too unruly or upset. No need to rodeo the dog just to get grooming done.

Or you could do it yourself but only do a section at a time. Do part of him one day, wait a day or so, then do another section. In one week, he'll be brushed out and you won't be dead on your feet from fighting him all day long.

I'd recommend shampooing him with a good grease busting shampoo(diluted with a lot of water!) and trying the brushing with the shampoo in the hair. He might not fight as much since he won't expect brushing during bathing, and the suds will help the hair slide free.

Instead of waiting to groom once or twice a year, I'd also say it's way better to do it once a month so the undercoat doesn't build up. And don't carry the dog's past for him. Act like he's a new dog and doesn't have "abuse" in his past. If you expect him to be fearful and bad, he will think that's what he should be.

Good luck!

(and plenty of groomers are GREAT with dogs and their behavior and are not dog trainers by choice. I could train dogs all day long but I don't like working with owners training their dogs, so I groom dogs. Just because someone grooms doesn't mean they don't know how to train)


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

I have groomed for almost 20 years and own my own salon. I would never groom this dog. At age "15-17" I normally see dementia setting in that causes extreme personality changes. Dogs also become painful and lash out to kill with no warning from simply being touched in a sore spot. I use muzzles all of the time, but not on an elderly dog; muzzling a panting, stressed, elderly dog is asking for a severe health crisis. Some dogs will severely escalate when a muzzle is placed on them to the point of injuring their self. Grooming can be extremely stressful to some elderly dogs and can cause exhaustion, heart issues and seizures. Few people realize how frequently a stressful groom can cause a frail dog to seize - their seizure threshold becomes very low, and there is something known (to experienced groomers) as dryer seizures, in elderly dogs.

I maybe only send home 1 dog unfinished every 2 years on average. Just this week I sent one that sounds just like your dog. A once a year shave down that I have done 3 years in a row. It is now around 17 years old and had a complete temperament change due to dementia. After attacking me, it released it's bowels, peed itself and fell on it's side. This dog had no issues being groomed in the past. I sent him home immediately. The owner now wants to bring it back sedated for me to finish, after I already explained that grooming the dog could kill it. She told me she does not want to pay a vet to do it (safely).

Grooming an aggressive dog of this age is a financial liability and should sometimes be done under sedation at the vet. No 45.00/groom dog is worth risking my reputation if it dies on my table, the owner tries to come after me for 2k in vet bills, especially if it attacks me and sends me to the hospital in the process, while putting me out of work. Are you willing to ask this of a groomer?


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## HayBabies (Feb 27, 2013)

If it were me. I would take him to the vet. They can sedated and muzzle him. If he has a reaction he's already at the vet for treatment. Just my thoughts.


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## CathyGo (Apr 26, 2013)

Cygnet said:


> I spoke to a groomer today and she seemed horrified when I said he would need to be muzzled, and she claimed she could work with any dog without '*trauma to the dog*.' She said she never used sedation and she had ways of calming dogs down. She looked like she's all of twenty.


Muzzling isn't "trauma".:smack It's simply a plastic/fabric/metal device that prevents the dog from sending you to the ER as easily. Most dogs ignore a basket muzzle and honestly if the dog bites under any circumstance I would get one.

If the idiot got bit and went to a hospital for treatment YOU would be the one facing quarantine of your dog for Rabies if it has it's shots or euthanasia if it doesn't.

When I first adopted Tanner his nails were grossly overgrown and he lightly mouthed me when I started handling his paws. He didn't know me and I was having to take pretty big chunks off so I figured I'd let somebody else be the "bad guy". The PetSmart/Petco places wouldn't muzzle a Boxer so I purchased a cheap plastic basket muzzle and took him to a small grooming place down the street. They just put him on his side and cut the nails. They took the muzzle off after a few seconds. He was still struggling but they saw he was not going to be aggressive about it. They didn't say a single negative word about me bringing him in with a muzzle.

There are no issues with me handling his nails now or I wouldn't hesitate to bring Tanner back to them.


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## CathyGo (Apr 26, 2013)

Cygnet said:


> The girl who showed me where the no bark collars were suggested a sonic device that makes an unpleasant noise. I explained the dog was DEAF. She responded, "But the noise is in a frequency only dogs can hear." I repeated the dog was DEAF AS A STUMP.
> 
> She said, "I've always thought the shock collars are cruel. You could always return the sonic emitter if it doesn't work ..."
> 
> *head desk*


That's hilarious. 

I actually think the sonic emitters are more cruel than the shock collars. Most of them have the tone set for way too long and the dog continues to get corrected even though it's stopped barking. I don't like the citronella collars for the same reason. The shock collars are fraction of a second corrections. Very clear to the dog.


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