# Too much horse for me~ I need some advice please



## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

This is going to be long.

Here is the situation. I'm a novice horse owner. My sister (who lives with my family) owned a horse 20 years ago, is slightly more knowledgeable than me but is health compromised (bad asthma, joint issues, she's not sick but is not as spry as she could be and I worry about her).

Two years ago we bought property~ and have been steadily working on building proper fences and shelters. We finally felt ready to get a couple horses. I bought one a couple weeks ago we are very happy with. She is calm, gentle, easily handled.......a beginners horse basically. Well~ last week we bought a second one that is too much horse for us and now I'm just not sure what to do. I need some advice please.

We found her in the Birmingham Alabama Craigslist but she was located in Wartrace TN. She was advertised as "8yr old Grey Roan Trail Deluxe- $850 (Southern TN) I have a nice 8 yr old mare. I would call her a grey roan. She is awesome on the trails. She has shoes on and is ready to go. I have trails on site and would encourage you to try her out. If you know horses you can ride her. Please call XXX XXX XXXX"

We went out last Tuesday Dec 1st to look at her. We called the man and he was expecting us. When we got there he was busy but his friend would show her to us. Two men met us and showed us the horse. She was very pretty~ but VERY JUMPY and nervous. The men told us that was because she had been in a stall being fed grain twice a day for a while and that she would calm down. I was very nervous as this horse was for my sister with the health issues and I told both men repeatedly that I was a novice so I didn't know what I was looking at but that this did not look like the calm, cool trail horse my sister needed. I was assured repeatedly that the horse just had too much energy from being locked up and she would calm right down when I got her on a pasture. He told us they had trail ridden her several times and that his sister or wife (I don't recall which it was) had ridden her. I asked specifically about bringing her back if she didn't work out and was told that was no problem. The one man made a big deal about how his "Word is his bond" and how stupid it would be to sell me a horse I was not happy with and then stick me with it. We did not ride her~ stupid I know.....but the men kept telling us they had to get some hay put out before dark and as I said......we are amateurs. We agreed to buy her after the had time to get a Coggins test done on her. On Thursday Dec 2nd I drove up with a friend to pick her up with the trailer (my sister was in the hospital getting some tests done). They took the cash, handed over the coggins test and loaded her very quickly despite her rearing at loading in the trailer. Again I was nervous~ but the men assured me she just had too much energy.

Drove the 2 1/2 hours home and straight to my vet. Had him check her out and give her vaccines before being brought to the house. He felt she was sound but she did have a small wound on her chest.....no big deal but I should have been told about it, didn't happen when she reared loading on the trailer there was NO BLOOD in or on the trailer. Also~ her ad said she was 8 years old but her coggins cert says she is 11 years old. My vet felt she might be too much horse for us and told he felt she had been ridden by a man and would respect a man much more than my sister or me. But at this point it was getting too late to turn around for the drive back and our vet did feel she was sound and probably a good horse.

We brought her home. Brushed her, cleaned her feet. Walked her over to the pasture we planned to start her in and SHE FREAKED when she saw the pigs. Worked with her some trying to calm her down but she was FREAKED. Testing the fence~ clearly considering going OVER it. We wanted to wait to introduce our first horse but it was getting dark and we thought the other horse might help calm her. Introduced them over the fence, seemed okay but when we let her in that pasture she kicked the snot out of our other horse several times. Okay~ it's getting dark~ try putting her in our stall over night. Got her in there~ while trying to close the door she FREAKED again, broke the stall door, ran OVER my friend who was closing it and went back to kicking the first horse. It's dark now and EVERYONE is FREAKED. Get everyone up~ get the other horse out of the pasture and just pray the new horse is STILL IN the pasture come morning. Luckily my friend was only bruised not seriously injured. We called the man who sold her to us and told him she was a lunatic and we didn't think we could keep this horse.

First thing out of his mouth was "What do you have in writing?" and that we were not getting our money back. It was highly emotional and I'm not sure what all was said~ my sister was on the phone part of the time but I got the phone back and agreed to give the horse a couple days to calm down then we would talk again. Several moments later the man who showed us the horse called me (the "my word is my bond" man) and asked me "What kind of people buy a horse without riding her?" AMATEURS is my only answer and I did tell him OVER AND OVER that we were amateurs. He told me he had already spent the $850 I gave him 4 hours earlier and I was just out of luck but that he would send me pics of other horses he had for sale and call me either Friday or Saturday and we could exchange her for another if we were still unhappy after everyone calmed down. Fine.

Two days later~ no surprise. No pics, No call, and ALL his craigslist ads have been deleted by author. The horse seems to have calmed down~ we did take her out again, brushed her, cleaned her hooves, tried leading her around the property. She seemed perfectly calm until she saw the goats (from a distance)......then we were back to FREAKING and she knocked over my sister and danced on her some (again luckily no serious injuries~ just bruises). I've got her in a pen by herself where I hate to have her as she has no access to a shelter from there. She does seem to have calmed down about the pigs and the goats and can share a fence line with them now........but frankly we are afraid to try to ride her. If a critter she didn't know came out of the brush on a trail ride~ or even just a chicken walked behind her in the yard and she freaked we would be completely incapable of controlling this animal. We suspect she MAY be a good horse for someone with more knowledge and skill than us~ but as a beginner I certainly would not call her a beginner horse!

Now what next? I have the mans phone number and I know where in Wartrace TN his barn is, and I have the address he gave on the coggins cert. I would like to trade her for less horse and I don't even mind taking a financial loss on her..........but it really burns me up the idea of going back to the man who I feel took advantage of us, lied about the horses age and suitability for us. And since he pulled ALL his ads I imagine when I get out there a lot more wary than I was the first time he suddenly won't have ANY horses priced LESS than $850 which would mean giving more money to the man I think took advantage of us just so he can sell her to another unwary novice who will believe she is "Trail Deluxe" and safe for a health compromised novice.

Anyone got any good advice? Obviously I need some before one of us gets seriously hurt or we ruin what my vet thinks is a pretty nice horse.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

I am sooo sorry this happened!! I was soooo worried too when I went to get me my first horse after 20 years of being off and was scared of the exact same thing. :-( 

From what I understand you do have legal recourse. Even if there were no papers signed, but I guess that depends on local laws. I guess a lot of states just have the "buyer beware" thing. You'll have to see what your local options are and see if you can't take him to court to see that the judge will force him to take the horse back and give you the money. 

If that's not an option, I'm guessing you could turn around and try to re-sell her or take her to an auction. Or send her to someone for 60 to 90 days of retraining. There are a lot of trainers that specialize in "problem horses". 

My husbands mare was like that when we first brought her here. She's better now, but she freaked when she saw the pigs. Usually those are horses that haven't been exposed to much of anything and are working totally out of the reacting side of their brains instead of the thinking side and she may be fine after she's been desensitized A LOT, but that's probably not something you would want to do and if she walks on top of people, not safe for anyone except maybe a large man to handle. 

They did that to you on purpose with the line of they had to get hay put away so that you couldn't ride her. It would only take one ride on that horse to know she wasn't the one for you if you lived through it and they knew that. Next time, don't buy the horse without riding, but even then you don't know for sure. There's a man here that sells a lot of horses and it has been reported that he drugs his horses to make them seem calm until you get them home and the drug wears off. :-( If you decide to get another one I would find a trainer or very experienced horse person to go with you. 

I'll keep you in my prayers that you're at least able to get your money back.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

I talked to a friend of mine from TN and he says that in TN, verbal contracts do hold in that state with or without something written, if you have a witness. Did your friend go with you to pick up the horse? If so, take him to court!! See if the judge won't force him to take the horse back and get your money back plus court costs.


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## commonsense (Jun 1, 2008)

First off, do not keep this horse. It's not the right horse for the situation you are describing, and really, a horse that high strung is the wrong horse for the majority of situations. 

You might be able to get someplace with the coggins paperwork that shows the horse to be 11 years old instead of 8. Do you have anything else in writing? A bill of sale or a printout of the craigslist ad?

Sounds like those men knew exactly what they were doing, and pushed you to quickly make a decision. Telling them that you are an amatuer doesn't mean they will act ethically.  

sending you a p.m.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

yes, I have the original ad printed that says she is 8 and has a picture of her, and the coggins paper that says she is 11


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## commonsense (Jun 1, 2008)

Perfect! Sounds like it's time for another phone call to the seller. I'd call back and mention that the coggins paperwork doesn't match the ad, and let him decide if he wants to have all that dragged through court of it he would just rather make things right with you.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

commonsense said:


> Perfect! Sounds like it's time for another phone call to the seller. I'd call back and mention that the coggins paperwork doesn't match the ad, and let him decide if he wants to have all that dragged through court of it he would just rather make things right with you.


I agree. Give him the choice to make it right or go to court over it. If he offers another horse, RIDE IT FIRST and if he offers money, don't take a check!! 

Good advice Commonsense!


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

You know, if that man is as crooked as he sounds, I'm not sure I'd give him warning. He was dishonest to begin with, so I don't see it changing. I would just take him straight to court with no forewarning. All that does is give him time to hide. shrug. Up to you, but I wouldn't.


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## commonsense (Jun 1, 2008)

good point 6e.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

This is the exact reason we always (on this forum) advise new or re-new owners to get competent, professional assistance when horse shopping. That being said, and since you're sorta past that point, where do you go from here?

I would still advise you to get professional help. Find a trainer in your area that will work with you and the horse together, to teach this animal respect and ground manners and to teach you how to enforce it. It could be that this person will also be the one to help you find it another home. It may indeed be a very nice mare, and in the right hands do fine. 

I agree also about the idea that she hasn't been exposed to much, and it sounds like she was completely overwhelmed when you got her to your house - in her defense that wasn't entirely her fault. It's always best to move horses earlier in the day if possible so you have plenty of daylight, and it's also a good idea to have small secure pen ready for them to move into and then introduce new animals, including future herd mates, gradually over a few days before turning everyone out together. Maybe you can keep this in mind for any future purchases. But the idea of her calming down and settling in is a valid one, once she has time to adjust. And that can vary from horse to horse. I usually give new horses several days to get used to their new environment before expecting much out of them.

As far as the seller's culpability in all this - personally, I wouldn't try to get your money back. You made the decision to buy her, knowing she _probably_ wasn't suitable, and at this point you need to assume responsibility for making an unwise and uninformed decision and move on. The seller's have made it clear all they wanted was to unload this mare, and they don't care if it's a good fit for you or not - in spite of whatever lies they told you to just make sure you got that mare on the trailer, handed them the money, and left. Welcome to the world of buying horses. Most sellers will not have your best interest at heart, and I don't think it's really reasonable to expect them to. That's your job. 

Now, there are good people to buy from, who will work hard to match you with the right horse, but they are usually professionals who have a reputation to uphold and are in the horse business to succeed, either by showing their horses or breeding them - or both. And that kind of horse and buyer-seller relationship is not usually going to net you an $850.00 horse. 

So to reiterate, I would focus now on dealing with what you have, get some professional help to work with her, and get her evaluated for suitability by someone who knows horses. Then go from there. If they think 30 - 60 - 90 days of training will make her a good mount, decide then if you want to invest that in her. If you just want rid of her, ask them to help you rehome her - and then ask them to help you find the right horse.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

no decisions yet~ not going to make the mistake of moving too fast and regretting it again. But if we want to try working with her (I really hate to send her back to the man I think is dishonest) then how would I go about finding a good horse trainer in North Alabama. Is there a BBB for horse trainers? How does an amatuer KNOW a trainer is a good one?

Also~
I forgot to mention that when we went up and looked at her on Tuesday Dec 1st two of my friends came with us. So there were 4 of us there who can all be witnesses to what those men told us about that horse that evening if we decide we want to try to send her back to them.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

In the horse world, with very few exceptions, it's buyer beware. You have no contract, or bill of sale so have little to no recourse except to try to work with the owner to take the mare back, or resell the mare.

I am leery of ANYTHING I see on Craigslist in the way of horses. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. Every once in a while I see a nice horse there, but feel that many are there because it's a cheap place to advertise a cheap horse to get rid of it.

1. Either hire a trainer and send the mare out to be trained or to be sold.

2. Contact the SELLER, not the man that showed you the horse and tell him that this horse is way too much for you to handle and appeal to his "better" nature..i.e. ask him would he want his mom to ride this horse? USE TACT and persuasion and see if he might take the horse back and swap.

I kinda doubt it, but that is an option.

3. Sell horse for whatever you can get for it. If it goes through a sale barn it will likely end up as a KB horse, but at least you won't be feeding it.

4. Got any friends that ride? See if one of them might ride the horse for you for a month as a favor - you provide feed/hay/shoes for horse.

For an 850. horse - I wouldn't bother going to court since you made the decision to buy said horse and it becomes a matter of he said/she said. You may not win and will end up with the horse and legal fees. You could have an attorney write the man a letter, but again, it will come down to he said, she said..et al.

Next time you are horse shopping, take someone experienced and if the owner won't ride the horse first, walk away. Also ask for a bill of sale that states you are purchasing X horse for X dollars and horse is sound, sane, etc. (well you can't define sane, but you can say "horse is suitable for a novice, ammie, etc. and is sold as a gentle, trail horse). If the owner doesn't have time to show you the horse and you made an appointment, walk away. If the horse is already saddled and bridled and you can't see it being caught, walk away. If the owner can't ride said horse due to physical problems and has no one available to ride the horse first, walk away.

Not horse's fault that you hauled near dark to a strange place and most horses that have never seen a pig are freaked out by them. Pigs are generally considered a predator in a horse's mind..(they will attack a horse on occasion and most horses if they have never seen one, will shy away or try to get away from them). 

Next time, have a stall ready for horse, do not put horse in with a strange horse for several days until they have had time to associate over a strong fence. It's fairly normal for a the horse pecking order to have the "who's boss" talk complete with hooves and teeth flying if they haven't been properly introduced over a period of time. Again, not new horse's fault, it's the nature of horses. There will be a dominent horse and one that is submissive in a herd of two..and in a larger herd, the dynamics can change over time.

Sorry you got a bad deal, but unfortunately you made the decision against your better judgement (gut feeling) to buy the horse. I would have never sold such a horse to a beginner, but many will and do and frankly, many get took this way. Buyer beware or Caveat Emptor..either way, buying a horse is unlike any other sale on earth, it is up to the buyer to be aggressive in finding out the truth of the horse being sold as some owners are less than honest especially if they want to dump a bad minded animal.

Personally, I feel for the horse..it's caught in a no win situation through no fault of it's own.

Edited to add: WhisperingRains is a great place for training - very reasonable and has good results. Here is a link to Amber who is the trainer there:
http://www.whisperingrainfarms.com/


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

Find a way to get plugged into your local equine community and you'll find one really fast. You can also ask any equine vets if they know of a good trainer in the area, as well as any feed store staff. Ask around, and wait for a name to be mentioned more than once. Read local ads, find a boarding stable and talk to residents there - just ask around. Network!


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> For an 850. horse - I wouldn't bother going to court since you made the decision to buy said horse and it becomes a matter of he said/she said. You may not win and will end up with the horse and legal fees. You could have an attorney write the man a letter, but again, it will come down to he said, she said..et al.


Just as an FYI, for $850, it would go through small claims court. 
In my state, in costs about $12 to file in small claims court. 
If you lose, you're just out the court appearance time and the $12.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

I also wanted to ask about a couple of red flags I read in your first post. The first one has to do with the idea that she was being grained and kept in a stall - if that truly was the case, then yes, she would have been full of P and V, and may need some time to come down off of her grain high. What are you feeding her, and how much? Some horses can react adversely to high protein feeds and feel much better and act much calmer when fed only hay or very limited amounts of grain.

About the coggins - you said


> We went out last Tuesday Dec 1st to look at her..........<snip>We agreed to buy her after the had time to get a Coggins test done on her. On Thursday Dec 2nd I drove up with a friend to pick her up with the trailer <snip>They took the cash, handed over the coggins test


 If he did not have one for her the first time you went to see her on the evening of the 1st, there is no way on God's green earth they had time to get one on her by the next day. Most of the time it takes a ride to the vet, get blood drawn, blood gets sent off to lab, and results come back in four or more days. So, if he gave you a copy of a Coggins for her, and it's for an 11 year old instead of an 8 yr old, then are sure the Coggins results are for THAT mare? Do the markings, etc. match? Did the vet look at the Coggins to make sure it was valid for her?


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I have no suggestions for you as far as the legalities of the situation and everyone else has covered that pretty thoroughly.

What I do feel very strongly about is that this is not a horse that will fit your circumstances and the risk of keeping her and trying to make her work is way more than the $$ you may/may not lose.

Yes, it's frustrating to be taken advantage of. Unfortunately many "horse traders" have a lot in common to used car salesmen ... I've been involved in horses most of my life and have met a relatively high percentage of them myself. If you can recover some of the original investment, fine, but even if you can't I would highly recommend that this mare be replaced.

I used to enjoy a challenge myself ... but I'm now at the point myself where older/slower and more sensible are the first things I want in something I'm going to be dealing with. An injury, even a relatively minor one, may cost you much more than you have in this mare. Do whatever you need to do, but get her replaced with a reliable animal.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

If sidepasser recommends a trainer, I'd hire them in heartbeat. She's (SP) in your area, and I'd trust her implicitly. Give those folks a call.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

I agree with 2horses about the coggins - even on a "RUSH" job with my vet, i.e. the quickest of the quick times - it takes two days to get a coggins done and costs a lot more (close to 100.00) due to getting the vet out, and paying the lab for the rush work and then the original coggins is mailed (usually around 7 days it takes to get it back) but the vet will have a faxed copy of the original which he can provide. My vet keeps a copy of the coggins, so you could call the vet whose name is at the bottom of the coggins and ask him to describe the mare, and when the test was pulled.

You may not have the correct coggins for that horse. Do the markings match? Color match (keep in mind in the english world it's "chestnut" and the "western" world usually says "sorrel". But the white markings should match the drawing on the paper work.

BTW - Amber at Whispering Rains is VERY good - she also participated in this years Mustang Challenge and won 5th place even though she had some medical problems that limited her ability to train her mustang for a couple of weeks.

I like her alot and her horses are very well cared for. She probably would do an assessment for you for a limited amount of dollars and she will be honest if she says "horse can be "fixed" or this one is nutz. I sent an arab to her that hadn't been handled in two years, he was way too much horse for me..she got him going and now a teen is riding him, it took a few months I believe (keep in mind this horse was very HOT and had not had a hand on him at all in two years - he was a rescue), she turned him around and made him safe for trail rides - his basic nature is still somewhat hot..but he isn't dangerous anymore.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

I'm sorry you are going through this. I had almost the same thing happen with my first horse right down to the seller saying how honest he was and he wouldn't do me wrong. etc.

You have one up on me in that you have the ad. Can you e-mail and state that the ad says she's an 8 year old horse than anyone could ride and that she is not as advertised? Also ad that he told you you could return her if she didn't work out. See what his response it. That , as well as the original ad, could be used in your favor. He probably doesn't realize you have it which is why he deleted it. Don't mention sueing or he will get guarded in his response, if he responds. He's used to taking advantage of people and is used to getting away with it. 

I know you would feel guilty sending this horse back to him but she could hurt your or someone else handling her. That's not something you need around. The horse I mentioned above, I sent out for training. She was much better but still really nervous and threw me and I dislocated my elbow. That is when I sold her. I was honest with the buyers about why I was selling her. They were used to training TBs off the track so they loved her.

Good luck


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

First do not feel you are the only one this has hapened to. It happens a lot unfortuntately. If you don't have much in writing as far as promises I doubt you will have much luck in getting small claims to rule in your favor.

I learned that there are many many people who come acrosss as professional and trustworthy but are really not. Even people that have selling horses as their "business" are not always "good" sellers.

I would either hire a trainer or take my loses and be totally honest with the next buyer.

I called about a horse recently and luckily the lady was honest with me because the horse would have not been right for me.

Next time get a person to go with that knows horses and what you need

Lastly I am sorry this has happened to you.


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## mayfair (May 7, 2006)

You are not the only one...my first horse getting back into horses was a real mess sold as a safe kids' horse. She was sold to me by a reputable stable I trusted, but they are horse dealers.

I had her evaluated by a trainer (you should follow up with the one Sidepasses recommended...the evaluation I had by a trainer let me know this horse was not going to be able to be rehabilitated so I didn't waste money trying to "fix" her). Fortunately my sellers took the horse back.

An evaluation by a trainer will give you the information you need so you can make the best decision for yourself and the horse. Good luck.


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## copperhead46 (Jan 25, 2008)

Unless you want to spend a LOT more money on this mare, call the man, tell him you are bringing the mare back, and if you need to you will bring the sheriff. If he says absolutley no, then tell him that you will file suit in small claims court and he is liable for all costs. Record any and all conversations with him and stand by your guns. When you go for another one, get it in writing, and have the seller ride the horse first, then you ride it and make sure you have a week to return the animal. Thats the way I sell horses and thats the way I buy them.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

We just emailed the trainer at whispering farms asking if we could hire her to evaluate the mare for us. A professional evaluation will make it easier to decide if we should try working with her or try sueing the man her sold her to us.

My sister is also going to register here so she can post to this thread~ but in the mean time we will each sign any posts put up by my user name so she can post to this if she feels the need to.
Thanks
Cheryl


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

copperhead46 said:


> Unless you want to spend a LOT more money on this mare, call the man, tell him you are bringing the mare back, and if you need to you will bring the sheriff. If he says absolutley no, then tell him that you will file suit in small claims court and he is liable for all costs. Record any and all conversations with him and stand by your guns. When you go for another one, get it in writing, and have the seller ride the horse first, then you ride it and make sure you have a week to return the animal. Thats the way I sell horses and thats the way I buy them.


I agree with letting the owner ride, but definitely ride it yourself also. It won't take much of a ride before you can feel whether or not you have control over that horse and if you feel out of control at a place where it's at home, you'll never feel in control in unusual circumstances. 

Maybe a trainer can do good things with that horse. Who knows. 

Good luck to you in whatever you decide to do. And good point 2horses. I never thought about the turn around time on the coggins test until you pointed it out.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

The markings on the coggins look like her~ and it does say it was recieved and reported out on 12-3-09. It appears to be a fax copy from "Mid South Vet Lab" in Murfreesboro TN. I'll show it to the trainer if we can get her to come out here and evaluate the mare to get her opinion. My vet looked at it but he just glanced not really carefully looked at it.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I'm sorry they did you like that. It's a shame. If you can't get your money back, it might do her some good just to be left alone for a while (to get used to new things at her new home) and then sent to a good trainer. Someone who could work with y'all as well to help build your confidence (as a confident rider helps a horse to be more confident as well). All depends on the money you are willing/able to spend.

I just can't believe a person has so little care for someone's safety! What if someone got badly hurt or killed, how could they sleep at night?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

6e, I strongly disagree with you. This person has said repeatedly that she has very little experience and there is nothing to indicate that this horse is even remotely suitable for an inexperienced rider. As a matter of fact, at this stage of the game we have no real proof that the mare has ever been ridden. I would not want this rider to mount this horse under any circumstances because I'd sure hate to see someone end up injured or killed over an $850 horse.

Cheryl aka JM, given the behaviour you're seeing, please make sure you're wearing a helmet when you're anywhere near her. You've had 2 close calls that were way too close, in my opinion. I would also encourage you to review the horse adoption thread. Sidepasser provided a great deal of information and much would still apply to private sales.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

It sounds to me that while she may have "been on trails" it was probably in a group with other horses and she just followed along; she does not sound like anything more than a green broke (aka has been sat on a few times) horse that may have never been off the property.

Advice? Have a trainer look at her, do a little groundwork, hop on for a short ride and evaluate. My guess is that they will find that she *has* been ridden but is anything but well trained. She might, in fact, be sensible and calm when she settles in and is worked with by a competent trainer, but that is probably still not what you want.

Aside from promising to take the horse back (which I don't believe the seller is really obligated to do), it's hard to say if you've been "had". They didn't advertise the horse as a novice mount or a well-schooled horse; they advertised her as a trail horse which is *very* subjective. "If you know about horses" you truly may be able to ride her in a group of other horses on a trail, which is sort of what they said.

If you find that the horse is green broke (and nothing else), I'd sell her; list her exactly as you know her to be...you may find that there is a very good home out there that is specifically searching for a project horse.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I'm still waiting for contact from the trainer I emailed. If I don't hear by this afternoon I'll try calling the number on the web page. She seems very calm and mellow now~ likes to have a cookie and a scratch and is visiting nicely with the other horse, the goats and even the pigs over the fence. Don't worry~ I have NO INTENTION of doing more than scratching and feeding at this point and most of that is done with me on one side of the fence and her on the other side. I did have to actually go into the pen she is in today to put a better water trough in there but I distracted her with some grain on one end and I was quick about it. I've told everyone who frequents our property that no one but me is to touch that horse for any reason at this point. She seems like a nice girl right now~ and she may very well be.......but if she is not she is MY mistake and I'll not risk anyone else being injured.

I would very much like to change which pen she is in. There is no shelter in there and I have to fork hay over to her a couple times a day because there really is no forage in there either. Hopefully the trainer will contact me soon~ evaluate her and this will all have been just her stressed and me idiot so I can start treating her a lot better. If thats the case (and I'm praying it is) I'll probably still sell her. We are all afraid of her now and I don't really think she has a chance of becoming a beloved pet here.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

wr said:


> 6e, I strongly disagree with you. This person has said repeatedly that she has very little experience and there is nothing to indicate that this horse is even remotely suitable for an inexperienced rider. As a matter of fact, at this stage of the game we have no real proof that the mare has ever been ridden. I would not want this rider to mount this horse under any circumstances because I'd sure hate to see someone end up injured or killed over an $850 horse.
> 
> Cheryl aka JM, given the behaviour you're seeing, please make sure you're wearing a helmet when you're anywhere near her. You've had 2 close calls that were way too close, in my opinion. I would also encourage you to review the horse adoption thread. Sidepasser provided a great deal of information and much would still apply to private sales.


That's fine, but I sure wouldn't buy a horse "for a riding horse" without riding it first. I had a woman try to sell me a horse a couple of weeks ago that she was advertising as a kids horse, but it was all I could do to keep the horse from running off. The horse "seemed" quiet and sweet on the ground, but was a whole nother horse once on his back and I would not have known that had I not ridden. At the "very least" take someone else along to ride. A lot of horses are quiet on the ground, but flaky once on them. shrug

Other than that remark, since you didn't quote what you're referring to, I have no idea what you're talking about.


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

I think wr thought you meant for her to ride *this* horse.
I read what you quoted in your post and saw that you meant to make sure and ride any other new horse she is looking to buy in the future.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Cliff said:


> I think wr thought you meant for her to ride *this* horse.
> I read what you quoted in your post and saw that you meant to make sure and ride any other new horse she is looking to buy in the future.


Oh, OK. No, not this horse. Just any future horse. I wasn't sure what she was responding to. Thanks


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Amber is usually out training during the day, if you don't hear from her, let me know and I'll notify her to check her email.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Holy wow, what a bunch of confusion. I was reading without my glasses last night so I misread 6e's comment.

Most definately one should not buy a horse without riding it but it's best to have the owner ride first. 

My comments look odd and out of place but related to my belief that 6e felt this horse should be ridden now. That's what I was disagreeing with.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

wr said:


> Holy wow, what a bunch of confusion. I was reading without my glasses last night so I misread 6e's comment.
> 
> Most definately one should not buy a horse without riding it but it's best to have the owner ride first.
> 
> My comments look odd and out of place but related to my belief that 6e felt this horse should be ridden now. That's what I was disagreeing with.


No. I was just referring to another post about buying a horse without riding first if it's being advertised as a riding horse, or at least, have a good friend that has horse knowledge ride the horse first.  I agree that she shouldn't try to ride this one. I wouldn't ride this one. LOL Too old to be hitting the ground any more. And as spooky at it is, I'd be scared to take it out on a trail ride.


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

Sell the horse...Use the money to buy a new snake...They're much friendlier.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

My dog LOVES snakes


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Hi,

I notified Amber that you were trying to contact her, let me know if you cannot reach her and if you want, pm me your phone number and I'll have her call you.

She is easier to get ahold of after dark (aren't all of us horse people easier to find after dark???)..

unless we have lights in the barn..then it's a toss up!


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## wineglassmtn (Oct 29, 2008)

Okay honestly and I am not trying to be mean here, but you have done a lot wrong with this horse. Here are some simple rules to live by when purchasing a horse.
1.) Bring the horse home and immediately put it into a stall by itself for 3 days. Make sure of course that it has water and food. Work around outside the stall so the horse can see that it won't hurt you.
2.) After the first 3 days then move the horse to a pen attached to the stall where it can see and smell the other horse and animals. That way it will get used to the other horse and animals. Continue to work around outside where the horse can see you and begin building trust. Realize that the horse has no reason to trust you at first and is going to kick other horse it first meet and freak out over pigs, goats etc.... when it first comes into contact with them.
3.) If you haven't ever gotten a horse training CD then get one. Clinton Anderson is really good and can give you lots of information on how to train a horse or work with one to build trust. Once the trust is built you should be okay.

Follow above should help. The only way to tell if you have a crazy horse is to have it evaluated by a horse trainer, someone who has a lot of experience with horses. If the horse if crazy do not sell it or pass it on. Put it down. I know that sounds mean but imagine passing on a crazy horse to someone who gets hurt or worse killed on it. You can be liable. Trust me I train horses and have had too many people call me and say, we have this horse that we bought from someone and they said it was great. It hurt our son or husband or daughter and we need help. I check on the horse and find out it has an old injury or was abused and is messed up. I tell them always put it down when that happens. Sorry I know that sounds mean but if it is truly messed up then you need to do the right thing. Good luck.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Thanks. She hadn't contacted me back so a fellow recommended by the guy who runs the feed store I use came out today. He does a lot of training in the area as I hear it and a couple different people suggested him. He rode her and she is broke. He says she is not well trained and he would call her an intermediate to advanced ride that needs more training. He tried several times to get her to back up and she just didn't understand what he wanted. He said he could teach her~ she's not dumb or crazy~ just not well trained and a bit spooky. She shied from the goose and he was easily able to control her with just a side step or two~ but he is an experienced trainer not a novice like we are. He thinks we got seriously ripped off on her, she is not worth anything close to what we paid for her, she is not for a novice rider, we will not get anything close to what we spent when we try to sell her, and he doesn't think it is in our best interest to pay him to train her (though he did let us know he'd happily take our money if we insisted!) He thinks she would be better off with a more experienced rider who can teach her what she is missing and work with her themselves. He said on a scale of 1 to 10 he'd be generous to give her a 2 on her current training.

so
a bit at a loss. I do have to proof that the seller lied about her age, but it is our word against his that he repeatedly assured us she was safe for a novice........and it would really depend on someones definition of "Safe". But I really HATE the idea of letting him get away with it (he IS advertising again on Craigslist too) So we are discussing our options. We may just attempt to sue him and see where we get.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

If he's a horse trader/ seller may I suggest you call him and tell him he has one chance to make it right. And tell him if he decides he isn't going to be prepared for you sitting next to his property with signs stating he has ripped you off, lied to you and dishonestly represented a horse and has refused to make it right.
Then go to walmart , buy poister board and magic markers and make you a sign that says...MR xx sells unsafe horses ...and be prepared to spend time there.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

i wanted to add....
I have had horses for a few decades. I have been had also.
Both times my instincts were telling me it was too much horse for our needs. Both times I let beauty blind me and ended up with horses no one wanted to ride,. IT is not fun when you have cotton mouth and shaking legs.
Even today when I find time to ride I grab Angel. She is as safe a horse as you can get. Ebby although gorgeous is still too much for me most days.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Cheryl aka JM said:


> He thinks we got seriously ripped off on her, she is not worth anything close to what we paid for her, she is not for a novice rider, we will not get anything close to what we spent when we try to sell her.....
> 
> a bit at a loss. I do have to proof that the seller lied about her age, but it is our word against his that he repeatedly assured us she was safe for a novice........and it would really depend on someones definition of "Safe". But I really HATE the idea of letting him get away with it (he IS advertising again on Craigslist too) So we are discussing our options. We may just attempt to sue him and see where we get.


Honestly, I know that regions of the country vary greatly, but in my area I wouldn't have expected an $850 horse do be able to do anything. That's just marginally more than what the meat man would pay at auction. So while you might have bought the wrong horse, and the seller wasn't terribly honest about it, I'm not sure I'd go so far as saying you got "seriously ripped off." If I recall the horse wasn't offered for sale as a "beginner" or "first" horse. 

Well-trained novice mounts aren't generally found for $850 no matter where you live, although I'm sure I'd pay more in NY than you would down south (here in NY you'd probably expect to pay in the $3K+ range for sure).

Personally, I'd chalk this up to lesson learned, list her for sale as green broke and move on. Get some nice pictures of her; maybe even some description of what she can do from the trainer who got on her, and hopefully you can find a person looking to bring a greenie along.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I'm really not very knowledgeable about it as we all know~ but I paid $2500 for our first horse "Jo", her trailer and all her tack. She is a very easy girl for us novices. I guess we were over confident after getting lucky on Jo. This girl (who we are calling Dakota~ as in South Dakota and Crazy Horse) Anyway the trainer told us last night that at auction Dakota would bring in around $80 bucks and we might do marginally better selling her as "slightly better than green broke" on a private sale.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Cheryl aka JM said:


> Anyway the trainer told us last night that at auction Dakota would bring in around $80 bucks and we might do marginally better selling her as "slightly better than green broke" on a private sale.


WHAT?? OMG, $80 barely covers a trip to the feed store!

Maybe the trainer wants to buy her for $80? 

I have no idea what horses in your area run, but I was going to suggest re-listing her at $850 OBO and see what you get. Is she pretty? A nice grooming, some decent pictures (at least one under saddle if possible), clean halter....I figured you just might get $600+?

Editing to add: you couldn't buy a trailer in NY for $2500 either!


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

Please call the trainer sidepasser recommended. I have a feeling you may get a much different response.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

I would also call the trainer that Sidepasser reccommends.  

Around here, $850 is about right for a green broke horse. Sometimes more, sometimes less depending on breeding, but a really well broke horse for novices, around here, are around $1500 on up. Usually in the $1800 to $2500 range. I guess in some respects, that old adage of "You get what you pay for" is true in horses too. 

If you absolutely can't keep her and work with her, then I would try a private sale as a green broke horse.  You may not get everything out of her, but at least close and the experience, invaluable.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I will talk with the family about calling the one Sidepasser recommended again, but I've already emailed her and left a message on her answering machine. She is a very pretty blue roan, and she is really sweet when she thinks you have a cookie. Kind of growing on me but I don't know if I have the time or the nerve to try working with her myself. I really didn't think I was buying a cheap horse when I bought her. As I said I don't have much experience but I have been to the local auction and watched horses being ridden around by children in the ring go home because the owner can't get $350. Last month I saw one being ridden by kids in the ring sell for $100. I knew there would be no information on an auction horse and I would not know enough to know if it had been drugged up for the sale so I never considered buying one of those~ but those were the prices I was seeing. And like I said~ on my first horse I didn't haggle at all I paid the asking price for her which was $2500 for Jo (A very pretty and calm registered 10 year old paint mare with current coggins) all her tack (saddle, blanket, bridle, saddle stand, brushes, her feed and supplements, even her water trough) and a nice two axle two horse trailer in what I would call good condition (needs new tires). So when I went out and bought Dakota while I know I made a mistake not riding her and not listening to my instincts I didn't think the asking price of $850 was a cheap horse~ I thought it was a reasonable price for what I thought I was getting.......a very pretty calm horse safe for a novice. I didn't even try to haggle with her price either as I thought it was reasonable~ but I certainly did not think it was cheap.

Maybe prices are just much lower here~ and I see that I just got lucky getting Jo and all her equipment at $2500........but when I was shopping for Dakota I was not out shopping the cheapest horses I could find. I THOUGHT I was shopping reasonable prices for private sale pet quality horses.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Cheryl aka JM said:


> I will talk with the family about calling the one Sidepasser recommended again, but I've already emailed her and left a message on her answering machine. She is a very pretty blue roan, and she is really sweet when she thinks you have a cookie. Kind of growing on me but I don't know if I have the time or the nerve to try working with her myself. I really didn't think I was buying a cheap horse when I bought her. As I said I don't have much experience but I have been to the local auction and watched horses being ridden around by children in the ring go home because the owner can't get $350. Last month I saw one being ridden by kids in the ring sell for $100. I knew there would be no information on an auction horse and I would not know enough to know if it had been drugged up for the sale so I never considered buying one of those~ but those were the prices I was seeing. And like I said~ on my first horse I didn't haggle at all I paid the asking price for her which was $2500 for Jo (A very pretty and calm registered 10 year old paint mare with current coggins) all her tack (saddle, blanket, bridle, saddle stand, brushes, her feed and supplements, even her water trough) and a nice two axle two horse trailer in what I would call good condition (needs new tires). So when I went out and bought Dakota while I know I made a mistake not riding her and not listening to my instincts I didn't think the asking price of $850 was a cheap horse~ I thought it was a reasonable price for what I thought I was getting.......a very pretty calm horse safe for a novice. I didn't even try to haggle with her price either as I thought it was reasonable~ but I certainly did not think it was cheap.
> 
> Maybe prices are just much lower here~ and I see that I just got lucky getting Jo and all her equipment at $2500........but when I was shopping for Dakota I was not out shopping the cheapest horses I could find. I THOUGHT I was shopping reasonable prices for private sale pet quality horses.


Prices vary from one part of the country to the other.  That may be a reasonable price where you are.  The horse market tends to be awfully shady it seems and you can get taken at almost every turn. Down right scary to go out and try and buy a horse these days!


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

Well, the unfortunate part is that horses - any horse - for the vast majority of us normal folks is going to cost more to keep, maintain, train, etc. etc. etc. than you will ever *make* off of selling them. So while prices are different around the country right now and the horse market is waaay down, $850 to me is fairly reasonable for a greenbroke horse. But I'm Texas, and our market is a bit different here and it does seem that it is improving a bit - although people are still giving away horses every day. So I wouldn't get too hung up on on what you paid for her. Had it been several thousand dollars - yes, but anything under a thousand and you stand a fair chance of recouping at least part of that.

You were smart to stay away from the auction horses - I consider myself fairly knowledgeable and I won't buy adults at a sale. Babies, yes, but not anything advertised as broke - I'm very leary of them. Unless it's a high-end sale. But just your typical dumping ground sale, no, I'd not buy one there either.

I still say get another opinion of her temperament and possible value. It can't hurt, and you may just find out that with a little time and effort, you did make a good choice - just need help getting there. And if it winds up not being a good match, then you can rehome her, a little older and wiser. Then get Amber (sidepasser's contact) to help you find the right horse.

And I think you got a good deal on Jo. Congrats!


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Cheryl aka JM said:


> Maybe prices are just much lower here~ and I see that I just got lucky getting Jo and all her equipment at $2500........but when I was shopping for Dakota I was not out shopping the cheapest horses I could find. I THOUGHT I was shopping reasonable prices for private sale pet quality horses.


I notice that you are in northern Alabama ... I am in southern KY ... and I think you are right, horses are much cheaper here than in some other places.

I know a number of local horse people who "deal" in gaited horses/ trail horses who say they are out of it because they can't sell horses. I've been to the local horse sales quite a lot, though not the last couple of years. The last one I was at, two years ago, there were horses going through for $75 to $250 that would have brought $250 to $750 a year earlier. The high selling horse at that sale, a really fancy black and white pinto Tennessee Walker gelding, well broke, brought $900. I bought two nice pony mares for $35 and $50 at that sale, the cheaper mare green broke and a bit spooky, the $50 mare quiet and well broke, both in the 14 hand range, considered small horses locally, not ponies.

Recently I have heard stories from people who have been at that sale that people take horses to be sold, come back out to go home and will find a strange horse loaded in their trailer. I have had people call me this past year offering to give a horse to me.

Two years of serious drought, followed by the current economic situation has pretty much finished the horse market in this area. People that are still dealing with horses are generally not breeding, have cut back to horses they are either keeping just to ride or the foundation breeding stock they are hoping to use when times are better. 

People that are still active with horses and still selling them (generally at much reduced prices) are mostly getting them sold out of this area.

If this mare were to go through an auction here I suspect that $80 price would not be far off. Green broke trail horse ... her color might get a bit more but I would be surprised to see a bid over $150 here according to what people are telling me.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

At auction she will likely sell by the pound. I'd have more of a problem with that than with the actual price she commanded; but, that's me. The thought of sending a halfway nice horse through a common sale barn just makes me sad 

She sounds like a nice horse, just one who didn't get the consistent handling she deserved. The horse world is FULL of such horses. In fact, I have one of them in my barn! Also 11 years old, also green broke, and while I paid $0 to purchase him I spent WAY more than $850 to bring him in to decent physical condition. And we're still working on the mental condition part :cowboy:

My point is, $850 is not much in terms of horses. The last horse I bought cost me $13000, and that was after I talked the seller down. You get what you pay for in horses. My free horse will probably cost me at least $5000 to get to where he's broke enough that I trust him in a new environment. Older green broke horses take ALOT of hours in the saddle to get to the point that a consistently ridden younger horse is at.

If you like her personality, think of it this way: you paid $850 to buy her freedom from her last situation. Horses do make GREAT pets, even if they can never be ridden. I'm a sucker for a sweet face, but if it were me I would just keep her and know that no green riders should be on her until you send her for training.


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## critterluv (Jan 17, 2008)

I would have to agree with 6e to be sure the horse is ridden before u bring anouther one home. But I would take an experienced rider, make the owner ride it irst then your experienced rider then if he/she thinks its ok for you then you try it out.

I am an experienced rider but got screwed myself becouse I did not ride a horse first, traded 2 unbroke and unproven arab mares for a "broke" palamino tennessee walker mare...yeah right, id be surprised if she had ever even been saddled. But they lived out of state and were the ones delivering for the trade.

lesson learned but I will have to train her myself this spring..I do love the mare just wished she was already broke


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## bluebird2o2 (Feb 14, 2007)

People look for certain colors,if shes a nice looking horse you might get a good price out of her.I have seen people pay twice the price for a horse because its a palomino.


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