# How many LGD is enough?



## ONG2 (Sep 22, 2010)

We currently have a Doberman and a Rhodesian Ridgeback and have had dobies for years, so I have an understanding about how to handle a strong willed canine. 

I also understand that a happy animal is 3/4 the battle to a well behaved animal. 

We have fenced in areas where our sheep, goats and hogs roam. So if we become the owners/parents of a LGD how many should we have? I would think 2 would be better than one as our other dogs are not allowed in with the other animals. 

Thanks for any help in advance.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

It is my understanding, just learning about such things myself, that LGDs don't necessarily need other dogs for socialization. They adopt the animals they are protecting as their family, their pack. In fact I have been reading a lot that you should not accept your other farm dogs coming into animal pens with you around an LGD as it could make them less likely to run off K9 troublemakers.

Of course, just learning here so take it for what it is.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

In Spain they have a saying that goes more or less like "When you stop losing stock then you have enough LGD's". In other words, if you have two guard dogs and you're still losing lambs or goats, two is not enough, you need more. I have seen You Tubes of sheepmen in Spain running a dozen or more Spanish Mastiffs, pups, grown adults, and in between. I wish more ranchers in the US thought like that. The tendancy here seems to be to work two or three dogs into early graves with no back up and when they are about to die, oh, suddenly they remember, they need to buy pups to have older dogs to show the ropes too....and by then, they're so old...they can't or don't care or are too tired! 

Myself, I run to the excess (ie a lot of dogs) but then I breed LGDs. 

I hear so many livestockmen complaining about big lamb crop losses, then you find out they have like, one dog to 1,000 sheep or some ridiculous thing like that. What are they thinking? They aren't, period!

Anyhow IMHO...it's a numbers game, the more LGD's the better.

It would also entirely depend on your fencing and the kinds of predators you have, as well. I am no expert, and never will be....but based on my experiences, I agree with CraterCove to some extent that I'd not encourage too much pack interaction with non LGDs because like stated previously, if a pack of feral dogs comes to molest your stock, your LGD's might not stop them. 

I run nothing but LGD's. Any kind of dog comes to fenceline it is preceived as threat. If a worker pulls up in truck with dog inside, it is a threat. Lady walks dog past ranch, it is a threat. There is no gray area. Interestingly my dogs are kind and friendly with neighbors Pyrenees LGD who guards her goats, through our common fence. Yes, they know. They can tell. Same neighbor's Yorkie and Husky? Another story. Fence fights. Other neighbors' little heeler cross? All out attack.... 

So I'd keep your LGD away from your pet dogs. 

And how close are they (pet dogs) to your stock? Will it even be possible to keep them apart from stock and LGD? Will they distract your LGD through a fence too much? My neighbors' dogs don't in my case but you never know.

Do you really need an LGD or can your other dogs bark off anything from where they are? Or do you need an LGD more than pet dogs? 

Just things I'd think about before I jumped into the LGD, that's all.....

Again no expert here either. Just based on my own ranching experiences and my own LGD's. Hope you can find solution!


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## longshadowfarms (Nov 27, 2002)

Very much depends on what you have, how many, how much area and how good the dog. We had poultry (lots) with a fence all around the perimeter of the place. One Pyr was plenty. 1,000 sheep would be a very different story.


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## bill not in oh (Jul 27, 2004)

I'll weigh in here with less experience than some, but a lot of research and conversation with folks that do have experience.

Yes, keep your 'pet' canines well separated from your LGD. The guard dogs have a job to do and you can't expect them to distinguish between the dobie and a coyote.

A well trained LGD will protect its livestock at ALL cost - even its life. If you have predators that are pack animals ('yotes or wolves for example) don't expect your LGD to live through an attack when outnumbered by that type of predator.

Fencing is your first line of defense not only for keeping predators out, but for keeping the dog(s) in. Most LGDs will try to claim more territory than you would expect. Good fencing will make their job easier and safer. Part of their training is to make them understand that the fence defines their territory.

The only command I taught my Pyr was "patrol". When I said that he'd take off along the fenceline issuing warning barks as he made the circuit. 'Down, sit, stay, roll over, shake, speak,' etc were not commands he needed to know.

Good luck with your LGDs... They will not be your best friend - that's the job of your pets - but if well bred and well trained they will be one of your best assets.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

We must be seriously lucky. Both of our Pyrs have been pets and LGD's. We've never lost an animal to the serious predators around here, and that includes our other dogs and cats because our Pyrs protect everything. I've seen my daughter's elderly Pug lying on top of them and the border collie loves playing with them. They love cuddling with us and our daughters. They are really awesome dogs.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Lisa you are definitely an anamoly. even in Iraq where the main predators are brown hyenas, jackals & desert lynx (all primarily solo hunters), they run packs of 8-12 on flocks of less than 300.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

bill not in oh said:


> Yes, keep your 'pet' canines well separated from your LGD. The guard dogs have a job to do and you can't expect them to distinguish between the dobie and a coyote.


LGDs protect anything in your flock be it pet canines or livestock. You don't have to keep them separate unless your pets tend to bother the livestock.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

It will depend on the size of your operation and how you have it set up. If you have two groups of sheep in different pens that a distance apart, then you might need more than one. If the dog has any difficulty getting from pen to pen he likely won't be able to get there in time. 
I have one lgd with about 100 sheep, and a handful of goats. 
The lgd can tell the difference between a coyote and a dog. They will also notice the difference in a bad dog or good dog depending on how the livestock act. 
I train border collies on sheep most days and have outside dogs coming here for lessons. Zeus(lgd) tolerates kind dogs on his sheep, but does not like splitting, chasing, and gripping. He will intercept and bump them, but never harms them. 
Away from stock he occasionally visits with the family and will play with some dogs briefly. Most of his time is with the sheep. He is good with our farm cats, but will chase cats that don't belong here.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I have 2 maremma boys...4months old..in training...(that's a laugh)...they know exactly what to do...I have only trained them to *come* and *sit* and to not jump on me...when told.

They already know what to do...they walk the fence. Gaurd on top of hills. Walk between the sheep. Play with the lambs. Protect the lambs from mean ewes..I've seen them block a lamb from getting hit from another ewe and walk the lamb to it's mother...then off they go to play. The lambs wont even come to me...but they'll run across the field and away from their moms to play with my boys. They are very caring to the little lambs and the ewes trust them with their offspring. 
I have a 10 yr old basset hound and a 12yr old lab...they do not go in the field with the pups. But they see them through the fence..I dont allow them to mengle for very long...just enough to smell and let the Maremma's know that they are part of the family along with my 3 cats. They seem to know the difference...they bark at other dogs and hate the neighbors horses...LOL...they will bark at them until the horses are 100ft away from the fence. They bark at anyone that comes threw the gate too...Their just not big enough to really cause any harm as far as fending off an attack....but they will be.


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## Curtis B (Aug 15, 2008)

I think it depends on the other dogs. I have only one actual LDG, and she is still a pup at five months. However, my other dogs have been raised with the livestock, and one in particular, are protective of the sheep and goats(especially the babies). They are a pack, and let nothing that harms my animals on my property. I watched my LDG pup Sunday laying in the yard scanning the property, until she suddenly saw something and took out into the pasture. Yesterday she followed the newborn babies around in the pasture, and would lay next to them and scan from there while the mommas would fret (they still aren't sure of her), or graze. They (the LDG's) just seem to know what danger is. I believe you need more than one dog to protect, but that is my opinion.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Pops2 said:


> Lisa you are definitely an anamoly. even in Iraq where the main predators are brown hyenas, jackals & desert lynx (all primarily solo hunters), they run packs of 8-12 on flocks of less than 300.


Maybe in Iraq I'd be an anomaly but here in northern Idaho, no one I know of runs packs of 8-12 LGDs. I don't really know anyone who has more than 2 with their stock.
'Course we don't have brown hyenas, jackals & desert lynx, but we do have black and grizzly bears, wolves, coyote, cougar and lynx.


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## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

here is my suggestion and one I tell all those that bought my puppies..

Get one now. Train it, spoil it! socialize it!!!!!!!! give it obedience training. If you have children, make sure they make them sit and give them a treat! I am all about treat training.

When that pup grows up with daily training... and is no less then 18 months old... 2-3 years is much better because they don't mature until 3 years or there abouts.. get another puppy!

When you have trained the first without the confusion of two puppies.. think of it like having twins! if one chases livestock or kills a chicken think about 2! it is hard to train two puppies to not chase and the poor livestock doesn't have a chance! it is much easier to train 1 not to do bad things.

Once one is trained, when you bring in a puppy and you tell them to sit, #1 sits and #2 looks at #1 and follows. When #2 starts to chase, #1 knows that is a no no and stops the puppy!

Always treat the #1 dog first and the #2 dog second... it is the pecking order!

It is easier to run opposite sex pairs. Intact dogs of the same sex will fight.. some to the death! the vet bills are not cheap! They can get along fine for a few years then one day a female is in heat and they go at it! Even if kenneled and a couple kennels apart.. they will go at the fence and can break teeth, cut gums, hit the kennel so hard they get bloody mouths.

On to other older dogs in the household.... going to use ONG2's dogs....

Doberman now #1 and a Rhodesian Ridgeback now #2 and the LGD is #3

Once you get a puppy, you introduce the puppy to everyone in the family, all the livestock and other dogs.

When you treat... you treat in order! always treat in order! #1 first, #2 second and #3 last! if you get another LGD later he/she becomes #4 and is always then treated last! if you bring in a poodle... the poodle becomes #3, #3 moves to #4 and #4 becomes #5!

No different then raising children. If you have 3 kids and one of them brings a friend over, the friend is treated first... it that friend moves in to live, they become part of the pack and fit in according to age.

My Chiweenie! my chiweenie is a Chihuahua x Dachshund. He is almost 2 years old and bosses the Anatolians around! it is too cute. They love him! but I had to hold his when he was 6-8 weeks old.. not sure daughter brought him home <rolls eyes> and told the dogs "mine"! after that... he ruled the roost! 

I believe LGD's can do it all! in the house, out with the livestock, accepting strangers in the house once I said it was ok. On a leash kind, gentle, loving.. off leash at home... protective. In a show ring Royal and Regal, on the hillside with the goats laying in the dirt.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Maybe in Iraq I'd be an anomaly but here in northern Idaho, no one I know of runs packs of 8-12 LGDs. I don't really know anyone who has more than 2 with their stock.
> 'Course we don't have brown hyenas, jackals & desert lynx, but we do have black and grizzly bears, wolves, coyote, cougar and lynx.


I have some Amish friends that have 8 adults and various puppies all the time with their sheep. They are such awesome dogs.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

bill not in oh said:


> Yes, keep your 'pet' canines well separated from your LGD. The guard dogs have a job to do and you can't expect them to distinguish between the dobie and a coyote.


A lot depends on the dog and how it was socialized. My Akbash is an "only" LGD, but he gets along with my GSDs and even with my grooming clients' dogs. He won't tolerate strange dogs running loose near the property, but if properly introduced to new dogs, he is totally benign with them. I believe this is unusual for an LGD, however, I have heard of LGDs allowing themselves to be herded along with the sheep by herding dogs.


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## longshadowfarms (Nov 27, 2002)

My middle LGD (Pyr) would allow most dogs around as long as they were on leash, under control of owner. Not so much for dogs off leash. He knew the difference. That said, even if my husband got close enough (through the fence) to talk to him or let him smell him, Pyr would go ballistic on anyone wearing camo. This was a rescued Pyr. Gorgeous. Impeccable manners on the leash. Had been found on the streets - chain wore through the collar. Always made me wonder...


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Maybe in Iraq I'd be an anomaly but here in northern Idaho, no one I know of runs packs of 8-12 LGDs. I don't really know anyone who has more than 2 with their stock.
> 'Course we don't have brown hyenas, jackals & desert lynx, but we do have black and grizzly bears, wolves, coyote, cougar and lynx.


you're an anamoly because you haven't had any serious losses yet. i have heard of folks a state west of you trying to run only one LGD & having it killed & eaten by a Mt Lion. my point was that these people depend on their livestock in a way we don't over here AND they don't have large or pack predators yet they believe it is necessary to run large packs. keep in mind these people are not a dog friendly culture in a desert environment. they wouldn't run that many if they didn't think it vital to success.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Pops2 said:


> you're an anamoly because you haven't had any serious losses yet. i have heard of folks a state west of you trying to run only one LGD & having it killed & eaten by a Mt Lion. my point was that these people depend on their livestock in a way we don't over here AND they don't have large or pack predators yet they believe it is necessary to run large packs. keep in mind these people are not a dog friendly culture in a desert environment. they wouldn't run that many if they didn't think it vital to success.


No one around me has either but it's always a good counterpoint to say, "You just haven't had losses YET." Since I can't tell the future and clearly you can...okey-doke. You win. I'm an anomaly.


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## ginnie5 (Jul 15, 2003)

Tucker tolerates our other two dogs with the chickens. The little one, Peanut has high prey drive though and has been known to go after them on occasion. That no longer happens. I have seen Tucker warn him off. We have lost no chickens since we've had a pyr. At night when the chickens are put up Tucker comes in and sleeps in the kids rooms. I hear him patrolling thru the house off and on all night.
He does not like strange men....one walking up the road is enough to send him ballistic. 
Tucker is nowhere near as social as Bandit was though.....difference in dogs I guess. Bandit loved to go with us and while we were out never met a stranger. However that person could come here and it be a different story. Tucker is a different ......he just doesn't like strangers period. If you are female though he will warm up to you. 12yo dd had a sleepover a few weeks ago. I was a little concerned over how he would react to 5 extra squealy girls in the house. Before I could turn around he was curled up int he room with them with several of them using him as a pillow! Happiest dog ever!

Oh and my main predators here are "pet" dogs that dig into my fence, gnaw thru wire to get in, and raccoons and possums. There are foxes (seen them hit on the road) and a few coyotes but they are not close enough to me to be an issue.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> No one around me has either but it's always a good counterpoint to say, "You just haven't had losses YET." Since I can't tell the future and clearly you can...okey-doke. You win. I'm an anomaly.


it's not about win. it's about people all over your state and the neighboring states are suffering losses w/ just one or two dogs including the dogs themselves. that makes you and your neighbors an anamoly.
my point about the Iraqis is that like the Spanish who have centuries of experience to draw on they use A LOT more dogs than Americans. Unlike the Spanish the Iraqis are in no way shape or form a dog culture and if 1 or 2 dogs was all that was needed they wouldn't keep big packs. but you seem to take this as some sort of personal attack, it's not, get over yourself.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Pops2 said:


> it's not about win. it's about people all over your state and the neighboring states are suffering losses w/ just one or two dogs including the dogs themselves. that makes you and your naighbors an anamoly.
> my point about the Iraqis is that like the Spanish who have centuries of experience to draw on they use A LOT more dogs than Americans. Unlike the Spanish the Iraqis are in no way shape or form a dog culture and if 1 or 2 dogs was all that was needed they wouldn't keep big packs. but you seem to take this as some sort of personal attack, it's not, get over yourself.



Aren't there any kitty cats running around there that you need to kill? 
Seems like you'd have better things to do than to tell me how many dogs I need when what I have is working well for my situation and my area. 

Newsflash: If most people in my area don't don't run packs of LGD's, and they don't have livestock losses...that's not an anomaly for this area. That would be the norm. In case you hadn't noticed, the western states are very large and geographically diverse. What happens one state over or even in the same state may have no bearing on what happens in my area.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Pops2 said:


> my point about the Iraqis is that like the Spanish who have centuries of experience to draw on they use A LOT more dogs than Americans.


I wonder if they have more predators there? Just numbers perhaps due to the fact that the USA has taken so much land away from wildlife? I don't know, but was just curious if that could be the reason they must use larger groups of LGDs? I don't know how densely populated their countrysides are with predatory animals. Coyotes are the main predators in this area, so they are smaller than the LGDs.

I know around here people usually run 2-3 unless they have big herds of livestock. The Amish have multiple LGDs in their herds/flocks, but they have large flocks.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Lisa, you don't say where in N. Idaho you are but you must be in a pocket out of the wolf loop or perhaps you are close in to a town and more protected?

People I know in Idaho who I sell pups to, are suffering wolf losses or their neighbors are. We are talking, a pack clearing a 6 ft fence to get into a house yard to take a pet dog by the neck and jump back over the fence with it and it's all done before the owner can even grab their gun, and they watch it happen. I'm talking cows left alive with their entrails eaten out and dead calves at side untouched. Hunting dogs eviscerated. You want the proof go to www.saveelk.org and let me warn you the photos are extremely graphic. But these ranchers they are the ones contacting me now saying HELP ME....

I live south of you. Big desert, open range country. Guys out here run 100's to 1,000's of head of sheep, big bands, with herders with them, they run packs of dogs, from pups to adults, they run a wagon, the herders live out there with them, like they do in Spain and in Turkey. And the dogs are there 24/7. Very primitive. They can't get by with just one or two dogs. The wolves are here in N. Nevada now, just north of me as crow flies.

I have no crystal ball here I just hear alot and see and read a lot about the increased predation from wolves and I'm telling you, congratulations on no losses and no one running more than one or two dogs up there in your little spot where you are at. 

The GOOD NEWS is today folks, Congress passed the law taking the wolves off endangered species list in ID and MT, WHOOPEE....which means they can now shoot the inglorious you know whats if they threaten their stock and/or dogs. Not just have to shoosh them off (and they don't shoosh too well).

I've spent a small fortune importing a lot of dogs over from Turkey and Europe trying to develop breeds and crosses that will help ranchers by being able to stand a better chance against the huge wolves that are coming in now. I love my Pyrs to death, trust me, but these wolves - you need to fight them with something bigger, tougher....that is why I got a hold of a Turkish breeder who has a strain of 'mega Kangals', more mastiff like....these dogs fight in Turkey, some of them are up to 41" TALL...all muscle.....that is why I have Spanish Mastiffs that weigh as much or more as the 200 pd 'mega wolves' coming down from Canada....that is why I have tried crosses to 'juice up' a more traditional breed...it is a whole new ugly, terrifying world of losses to rampaging wolf packs out there for some of us Lisa, we don't have the luxury of being casual about fighting off what is coming. I think that's what Pops2 is trying to say.

I have a customer in Canada. Her hopes are pinned on my setting her up with the right kind of dogs, or they will have to sell out and give up on their cows and literally move - the wolves last season already took 5 heifers. Rangers confirmed the kills. They can shoot them up there but they are overwhelmed. I am hoping I can provide her with the dogs to at least fight back. They are ready to give up. But she's trying one more time and its by increasing her dog numbers.

Lisa, consider yourself, if not an anomaly, ---- lucky for now. Hope it stays for you.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Goatress said:


> Lisa, you don't say where in N. Idaho you are but you must be in a pocket out of the wolf loop or perhaps you are close in to a town and more protected?
> 
> People I know in Idaho who I sell pups to, are suffering wolf losses or their neighbors are. We are talking, a pack clearing a 6 ft fence to get into a house yard to take a pet dog by the neck and jump back over the fence with it and it's all done before the owner can even grab their gun, and they watch it happen. I'm talking cows left alive with their entrails eaten out and dead calves at side untouched. Hunting dogs eviscerated. You want the proof go to www.saveelk.org and let me warn you the photos are extremely graphic. But these ranchers they are the ones contacting me now saying HELP ME....
> 
> ...


I live in wolf country and nowhere near a town, and I've seen and heard wolves. I've also heard all the stories and the propaganda websites like the one you posted but we have no wolf problems in this area, even during lambing and calving season. 
We've had more problems with moose (which our LGD's tend to ignore) and neighbors lost a horse to a cougar, but they had no dogs.

Not really interested in arguing any more about this since it isn't an issue for me. I answered a question on a thread giving my experience in the mountains of northern Idaho with my dogs and stock and the big predators here and I'm not exactly sure why it seems to invite argument or dire predictions. I live here, this is my experience. If it bursts your "predators are so scary" bubble....so be it. 

If people are so terrified of living around high end predators...don't move here or go back to the suburbs.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

nah, the large raptors are doing a fair job of knocking off the feral cats around me. but i may let Sonic off a few NONNATIVE red fox tods when they den up & force the vixens to abandon the pups to starve and see what that does to help the NATIVE pygmy cottontail population. i'll try to find him some sow ***** w/ kits to wax too. while i'm at it i'll try to blast some starlings and english sparrows too. if i'm really lucky maybe i'll get to shoot a big canadian grey coyote (no wolves in UT according to the DNR).


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Linda, you obviously are All Knowing.....and Pops2 and I have obviously hit on some buttons.....you just have a great day, remember, no flaming, and enjoy your life in your little bubble up there.....you seem to be a good propagandist yourself...a poster girl for happy farming!!!!


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## janetgran (Apr 18, 2011)

I am brand new here, and it's my first online forum. I read everyone's comments here and found it very interesting, but I'm curious about one thing: we have been researching LGD's for a couple of years, and read alot of good stuff about Commondores. I didn't see anyone here mention them; does anyone use them out west? Also, most of the research we did indicated that brother/sister pairs were the absolute best combination. 
As far as how many you should have; I think it's whatever works for you and your specific set up.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> didn't see anyone here mention them; does anyone use them out west?


Few use them as actual working dogs because they require so much grooming


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

I would say that it depends on your predator pressure, or the presence of wolves. Two dogs are a good number though, then go from there. 
Please get the first one trained first. Training two pups at one time is near impossible unless with an older trained dog. They get into mischief together. Just like human kids,,,haha.

Although my Guregh can fight a wolf or lion by themself, it is better to have two. If for no other reason, than to allow them to take shifts, which they will. 

Good luck!


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