# Logging questions



## Ford Zoo (Jan 27, 2012)

I am about to have a logger out for the first time and am wondering where on HT I should post questions so I can get some guidance. Thanks for any ideas!


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## Robert (Jul 13, 2005)

Every region is differant. When I lived out west all the money was split 50/50. I made arrangements with the mill for the checks, that way no one could claim anything unfair. Land owner get half, logging company gets half. Keep copies of all paperwork, including the checks. If you don't feel right about the guy, or if he is a fast talker that is trying to impress you. Move on untill you find some one else. Also ask around the community to see what people are saying about the loggers. There is a bad apple in every bushel, but that does not mean the bushel is bad, if you know what I mean.


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## Joe.G (Jun 26, 2012)

I would post in the General section, I would talk to the local Saw mills and ask them, they should have a good idea on who is good and who to stay away from. You don't need a butcher to come in, and ruin your land and take your money. You want a guy that cares about the land and who is honest.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Every thing I read and heard was you needed a consulting forester to run the logging deal for you and that you would make more money. Didn't work that way for me. In Florida, pulpwood prices are published by UF, our AG university. I got paid at the high end of the range but the consulting forester didn't do much of anything. 

I got paid way too late, in violation of the contract, the forester didn't supervise the job except when I called and forced him to be there, and he didn't offer any good advice on what to cut where. All the cuts I had done were the result of my own research and discussions with the loggers. 

I would have saved myself 10% of the income if I had run the deal myself. Some minor things could have been done better, but overall I am not unhappy with the total deal.


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## Joe.G (Jun 26, 2012)

I don't see the need for a forester unless it is required by law, A professional logger can do the same thing, Go with a Pro and you should be fine.


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## Robert (Jul 13, 2005)

Some states do require a forester, Washington state requires one before the state ( DNR )will issue a logging permit.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Joe.G said:


> I don't see the need for a forester unless it is required by law, A professional logger can do the same thing, Go with a Pro and you should be fine.


Around here going with a so-called pro will get you and your property raped. A consulting forester provides protection against being taken advantage of.

If you can find one, use a forester that understands medicinals. Depending on how your property was treated or mistreated in the past, you could be ignoring a potential gold mine for pennies on the dollar. Ginseng sold for over $400 per pound last year.

At least have a knowledgeable person in medicinals.to walk the property.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Get a logging permit if your jurisdiction requires one. Here in Washingron state, permits are required from various local, state and sometimes federal agencies or penalties kick in as soon as you are caught. You will get caught. Permits require fees and often consultants so be sure you will get more thanmit will cost. Beware the logger who says he will just add your logs to a job that has permits to take to the mill. And remember that you, the landowner and timber owner, will take the hit when your logger clearcuts the wetland or the steep slope or crosses a fish bearing stream or......


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## Joe.G (Jun 26, 2012)

Yes every area is different, here there is no permit required. I am lucky enouh to have a friend who is a logger and who treats everyones land like it his own and he does and outstanding job.


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## Hoopjohn (Mar 8, 2013)

I'd advise doing your homework. It seems most people put VERY little time into choosing a logging contractor. And then cry when there land is nearly destroyed and they receive next to nothing in payment.
There is no need to have a forester.

At minimum, before you sign a contract:
1)ask for at least 3 references
2)talk to references in person
3)view land where logging operations were performed
4)ask landowners if they were paid promptly
5)visit site where the logger is currently working


At the end of the day, it really isn't all that much effort involved for an event (logging) that may occur only once in a lifetime


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## riggerjack (Apr 21, 2014)

It's your land, your trees, you should decide which trees to drop. Mark them low, so there will still be a mark on the stump after the tree is gone. 

This is a homesteading site. If you have a homestead with trees, you should learn to safely use a chainsaw and drop trees. 

If you can do that, then skidding with a truck/tractor and winch is next on the list of skills to acquire. When you have a load, call a self loading logging truck in. You pay the truck driver for his time/mileage, and keep all the money.

The more parts of any deal you control, the more you understand the "why's" of the compromises, the happier you will be.


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## riggerjack (Apr 21, 2014)

Oh, and fuel ain't cheap, sawmills on the west coast are closing all the time. Distance to mill is a big part of how logging contracts are split up.

I live on an island, my trees aren't worth harvesting, economically. The best deal I could get was loggers coming out dropping and removing trees to cover transportation costs. Then leave me the mess to clean up. Needless to say, I still have every tree that didn't HAVE to be removed. I moved out to the woods, not to my cleared lot, and my neighbor's woods.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Be sure you can log. Here most mortgages require the mortgage be paid in full before you can log or it requires the agreement of the mortgage holder.

Have the mill do the split and get your check directly from them. It can take some loggers a long time to get your money to you and their math can be bad.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Be sure you can log' was a good point Molly.

It sometimes comes as a painful surprise, but some people who log their land get in huge trouble if they log and don't own the timber. Your title report when you bought the property would show a timber (or water or. mineral) reservation.

It is more common that somebody owns the mineral rights than timber but it does happen.

Like --- I could record a document giving me the timber rights to my property - in perpututy. Then I sell. Then you buy. Then no matter who owns the property, I own the timber. I can log it at any time as long as I do it according to the conditions I established when I recorded the 'right'. Or, if you log it and steal my timber, I can get all the money the logger paid you, and damages (around here, the 'damage' can be tripple the value of the tree).

I could also record a restriction that the house always has to be painted blue. Or your car always has to be parked in the garage.

That's why it is important to get a title report and fully understand it before you buy any property.


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

Does everybody understand that he posted this a month ago and the question was. Where he could post questions about having his property logged??, But never actually posted a question he wanted answered!! Everyone has been giving all kinds of answers to a question that has never been ask?? He also has never posted back on this thread since he made it a month ago!!. Just saying??


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Muleman said:


> Does everybody understand that he posted this a month ago and the question was. Where he could post questions about having his property logged??, But never actually posted a question he wanted answered!! Everyone has been giving all kinds of answers to a question that has never been ask?? He also has never posted back on this thread since he made it a month ago!!. Just saying??


How about a year ago ???


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## Filson (May 22, 2013)

Gray Wolf said:


> Get a logging permit if your jurisdiction requires one. Here in Washingron state, permits are required from various local, state and sometimes federal agencies or penalties kick in as soon as you are caught. You will get caught. Permits require fees and often consultants so be sure you will get more thanmit will cost. Beware the logger who says he will just add your logs to a job that has permits to take to the mill. And remember that you, the landowner and timber owner, will take the hit when your logger clearcuts the wetland or the steep slope or crosses a fish bearing stream or......


Gray Wolf,

I live in the Colville area and am planning on thinning my woodlot (13 acres). Do you know if I need a permit to do this? I'll be doing the work myself, and it'll realistically take several years due to time strains.

I remember reading on a PDF (don't recall if it was from DNR or what) that you can take up to 5,000 board feet a year for personal use, not sure if my goals would qualify/fall under this rule, or not. I won't be selling any timber from thinning.

If you can answer any of my questions that'd be appreciated, or even point me in the right direction to find out. I am scheduled to meet up with a DNR guy to do a free walk-through of my woodlot in the next 2 months, and I could ask him if I don't find anything out in the mean time. Thanks again.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

I've been out of the game for 3-4 years but back then the DNR rule was indeed 5,000 board feet per year for personal use. Personal use pretty much meant the wood had to stay on the owners land. Get caught selling it was not pretty. 

If not for personal use, (you can't sell the wood, even for firewood) there were lots of rules for a commercial permit, but, from years ago, the big deals were:
Forest Practice Permits (logging)were administered by DNR.
In some counties, DNR had the county do the permit work for them. DNR is nice, some counties not so much.

No matter if commercial or personal use, if working within "x" feet of a stream, wetland, or steep slope, more rules kick in and you get to deal with DOE and Fish & Wildlife (state and maybe federal). Back in time, up to 300' away from environmentally sensitive areas was deemed enough setback. Lessor levels of sensitivity let you work closer. Tricky stuff.

If within "x" feet of some bigger streams, small rivers, some wetlands, you will be entertained by the Army Corps of Engineers.

Learn what a "Conversion Statement" is or a 6 year moratorium on building and development can kick in even with a permit. 
Logging without a permit also got you 6 years.

Remember, although my consulting firm got lots of permits and made good money fighting the 6 year thing, my knowledge if today's rules is ZERO.

DNR and your county will have information pamphlets in their offices and probably on-line. Your DNR guy will be a big help. 

Consider inviting your Conservation and Fish & Wildlife reps. along on the walk. 

Also invite your fire district to come out and take a look at your property some time. We did. Got some good pointers. (For instance, we now have a 2,500 gallon fire tank over by the shop - after the fire chief told us about the 45 minute turnaround to the nearest hydrant to refill a fire truck fighting a structure or forest fire up here.)

Do it right and have fun. You may be exempt, but check, check check. A permit will cost you permit - and probably consultant fees if any sensitive areas around. The sensitive areas might be on the property next door but you will still have to honor a setback from them. That's the way it is.

Do it wrong, and get caught, and you'll regret it. You'll have to get retroactive permits, perhaps pay fines, repair any environmental damage that may have been done, etc etc. And suffer for many months.

PS: there USED to be a federal grant program that would actually pay landowners for certain things that improved the forest. The place we live on was eligible for $500 per acre to thin trees on about 5 acres. Most of the rest of the 60 we had already thinned before we discovered the program or it was naturally thinned to start with. Start by contacting Washington State Conservation Commission. Nice people.

Good Luck!


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## Filson (May 22, 2013)

Gray Wolf,

Thanks for all the info and great reply!

I want to do it right, just looking for some clarification on what I need to do, or not do. The bulk of information out there is directed towards commercial logging, and I'm not sure what I can and can't do.

I've also looked at a lot of pictures of before/after forest thinning, and some of the pics I've seen _look_ pretty terrible, to me. I think some of what I want to see with my woodlot vs what is 'technically' right is a bit off, though still along the same lines. I dont see myself taking out as many trees as a lot of the thinning pictures I've seen. I'll just have to talk with the DNR guy when he shows up, tell him what my goals are and go from there.

I think the 5,000 board feet is a good rule, if it's still active, which I'll look into. I could use a lot of the timber for fencing and other projects around the farm, so it'd be helpful.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply!


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## Joe.G (Jun 26, 2012)

I like to thin my land, I pick a different section every winter. I think it is healthier also. I can not speak about the permit process up by you.

If you are doing it yourself you can take more time and do it "neater" if you pay someone the neater they do it the less money you will get. Remember they want the timber not the branches and big trees have more branches then you think. Some companys have chippers and what not but time is money.

What I do with mine is I spread the branches out so they rot faster, in certain areas I make piles for the animals to live in or I burn the piles. If it is a spot I want neat I drag it out. But the first few years it may not look like you want it, nature has to grow back and take it over again, I use a skidder and that is why i do it in the winter since it tends to make less of a mess.

I have seen plenty of logging jobs so if you hire someone hire a honest guy, some loggers are " Neater " then others.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Our rule is that the canopies can't touch. We thin and then limb up the survivors about 8-10 feet. We repeat about every 10 years and save the best trees.

Logs go to the wood pile and slash bigger than about 2 inches goes to the burn pile. Limbing up will help if/when we get a forest fire and it makes it easier to run my tractor and 6' wide brush hog around to chop the slash. 

I built a 8' x 8' flat platform that goes on the loader bucket and just toss the slash on. Then motor over to burn pile which we burn when there is snow on the ground.

About every 3-4 years I mow the brush on about 10 acres and keep rotating where I mow. It looks like a park with grass and only "nice" wild bushes here and there.


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## Filson (May 22, 2013)

Joe.G said:


> I like to thin my land, I pick a different section every winter. I think it is healthier also. I can not speak about the permit process up by you.
> 
> If you are doing it yourself you can take more time and do it "neater" if you pay someone the neater they do it the less money you will get.
> 
> What I do with mine is I spread the branches out so they rot faster, in certain areas I make piles for the animals to live in or I burn the piles. If it is a spot I want neat I drag it out. But the first few years it may not look like you want it, nature has to grow back and take it over again, I use a skidder and that is why i do it in the winter since it tends to make less of a mess.


Thanks for the reply!

Like you, I'll be doing little areas at a time. I have absolutely zero interest in having any outfit come out on my property to do it. I am picky as all get-out and would much rather do it myself lol.

As for the permit - I emailed a DNR guy and got a reply this morning, stating that indeed I do *not* need a permit to remove timber from my land, so long as the wood stays on my property. I obviously cannot sell it to a mill, as firewood, and so on. Which is fine, as I was originally planning to keep most of it anyway (I did think about selling a few chords of wood to offset the cost of things a bit, but if I cannot, that is fine. Paying for a permit to just sell a couple chords of wood would also not make much sense, so I'd rather just keep the wood and use it for the stove in the shop, or the firepit outside.

As for the slash piles so far (just two, that are all the lower branches on some trees we've trimmed, and only 3-4' high and roughly 10'x10'.) We originally planned to move them out in the open and burn them over time. One of the piles is only about a week and a half old, and while walking around up there yesterday, I seen a chipmunk messing around inside of it, so I'm hesitant to move it. The problem is, is that it's too close to a 27" tree that I want to protect. I think it's only 15' away or so, as it was intended to be moved soon. Considering it's spring, I'm worried about the chipmunk nesting down in it already if it has babies, I'd hate to screw that up for it lol. But... I know slash piles can really increase the chance of beetle infestations, and I hate it being so close to the large tree.

I bet the skidder is coming in pretty handy lol. We only have 13 acres (if we get the adjoining 20 acre lot, which it looks like we will, that'll push our woodlot up to about 22 acres). So far, our little garden tractor has been able to pull the trees out, when they're in the open, mostly thanks to gravity of pulling them downhill lol. If I have to, I'll buck them up before trying to pull them out.



Gray Wolf said:


> Our rule is that the canopies can't touch. We thin and then limb up the survivors about 8-10 feet. We repeat about every 10 years and save the best trees.
> 
> Logs go to the wood pile and slash bigger than about 2 inches goes to the burn pile. Limbing up will help if/when we get a forest fire and it makes it easier to run my tractor and 6' wide brush hog around to chop the slash.
> 
> ...


Gray Wolf,

Thanks again for your time! 

I think the crowns not being able to touch is a good rule. There will be a couple exceptions here and there, as I've seen (one spot in particular) that has 4 trees that are all 11-14" DBH growing in a curved line, with about 3-4 feet between the trunks. They are on the edge of the tractor trail and get quite a bit of sunlight due to being on the "edge" of the woods so to speak. They each look really healthy.

One of the things I've noticed as I've spent time looking around inside the lot, thinking about which trees to cut down, is that while I understand there is a bit of a scientific method to it (basal count and such), it seems like it can be pretty artistic as well. It definitely takes some thought and careful calculations. "If I drop this tree, even though it's fairly spaced from anything else, those 4-5 keeper trees will get a good deal more sunlight in the morning" and so on. While the distance is a consideration, you can also help or hurt your woodlot by leaving or taking specific trees that will effect sunlight and other factors. It's pretty darn cool. =)

As for mowing in the woods - the majority of the woodlot is just pine needles, some grass in the more open areas and tons of this little shrub that I am unfamiliar with, that is about ankle high and pretty "woody" with little green leaves. I like the feeling of a closed canopy forest, but I will be opening it up quite a bit more than it currently is, and I'll have to wait and see what happens with the undergrowth.

Also - how high do you limb up? We've been going up 8-12 feet, as I remember once reading that removing too much limbs from a tree at once can hurt it (not sure if that's true in this situation or not, just remember reading it).

Thanks again for all the info, guys!


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Don't limb a tree up more than a third of its height. 

Limbing should be done in the winter while the sap is down. Limbing in the summer lets the trees bleed sap which attracts insects to the stub, and might hurt the tree. 

Mowing brush is optional as far as looks go but is a good thing for fire supression. We only get about 12" of rain a year so we worry about fire more than most.


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## Filson (May 22, 2013)

Gray Wolf said:


> Don't limb a tree up more than a third of its height.
> 
> Limbing should be done in the winter while the sap is down. Limbing in the summer lets the trees bleed sap which attracts insects to the stub, and might hurt the tree.
> 
> Mowing brush is optional as far as looks go but is a good thing for fire supression. We only get about 12" of rain a year so we worry about fire more than most.


Ahh crap, I should probably put a hold on limbing. I might wait until fall to start doing too much more out there.

We only get 19" of rain a year too, so definitely a concern. Almost all of the underbrush is under 2' tall, so I don't think it's all that bad here. Deep in the woods though, there is some kind of small, multi-trunked tree/large shrub that grows maybe 15' tall, that could probably use some attention. I have no idea of what type of tree/shrub it is, as I don't know the local flora and fauna yet. But it kind of reminds me of vine maple from back home. I'll have to ask around or take pics and look it up.

Thanks again for the help!


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## o&itw (Dec 19, 2008)

Many states have Foresters available through the Department of Conservation, or the extension service. You can use their talents, free, to help you decide what kind of harvest is best for your land, a contract that protects your land from serious damage, a price estimate and a reasonable estimate of the amount of timber that you have. The best way to harvest timber, depends on the area, terrain and several other factors.

These foresters can help you come up with a reasonable contract that makes you the best money while protecting your land. There are many great loggers out there, and there are also some that will promise great things and leave you with eroded land and a mess that will cost you more to clean up than you received from the sale.

You have to remember that it is the loggers best interest to buy your timber at the lowest price and be able to harvest it by the easiest means. In many older areas, the largest trees are not necessarily the oldest, they simply have the best genetics. While in some areas a "select cut" is the way to go, in other areas it is simply "hi-grading" which is where the owner gets the best genetics removed from his woods, and is left with a bunch of trees of poor genetic quality to provide the seeds for a future growth. Diseased trees and damaged trees are left, using up sun, nutrients and space that complete with quality trees or even preclude them from growing.

A professional forester should always be consulted first. He can help you choose what kind of harvest would be best (that may differ between locations on your land), he can recommend minimum contract wording to protect you, and he is often available for free from the state.


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