# Sticky  Buy the right sheepdog UPDATED Jan7, 2013



## wendle

I know this is a sheep forum, but to many of us a sheepdog is very much a part of life on our operation. Maybe a sticky would be a good idea with tips on choosing and training a sheepdog, and/or links. 
So you want to buy a sheepdog. A well trained working dog can be an incredible help with a working sheep operation. Before you get a dog you need to consider what kind of job he will be doing? Will you need him to gather sheep from a pasture, load the trailer? push sheep through chutes? Pen work? Guard sheep? 
I highly recommend watching that breed at work before deciding for sure. Then watch the parents before choosing a pup. 
Once you have decided what work your dog needs to be doing you need to ask yourself if you can train the dog to do that work. It's more difficult than it seems. 
You will need to spent quite a lot of time training that dog for the first year of his life. You can't expect to just turn him loose to train himself. This happens far too often ending up with livestock being injured/killed, and the dog taking all the blame for only doing what he was bred for. 
If you do decide to train, then educate yourself with books, videos, and/or a teacher you can visit for help. I highly recommend attending a few clinics or classes on herding dogs to get started before buying. 
Another option is getting a trained dog, or sending it out to be trained. 

Below is a video of one of my dogs penning cattle in a free standing pen , showing some bite work. They have never been in that pen before. You can see where it can be useful. 
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2FQHPvlW6Q"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2FQHPvlW6Q[/ame]

Here is the same dog moving sheep through a chute . This dog is 2 years old with quite a bit of training. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osLtU8DdIS8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osLtU8DdIS8[/ame]


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## Fowler

I agree with you wendle, also note the difference between a livestock guardian dog verus a herding dog. Some may not know the difference.

Before I get "Smacked" yes some herding dogs can be LGD's. However they are not bred to guard, just herd. So many of you may have a herding dog that works for you. I personally would not suggest to a new person wanting a LGD to start off with a herding dog. JM2 cents.

Do your homework on what LGD's are.


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## spinandslide

Great idea for a post!

I cannot stress enough how important it is to KNOW what you need the dog to do and seek out a breed and individual dog with those qualities..

there are some dogs great on cattle, but to much for sheep..and vice versus.


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## greengrow

Some herding dogs are slow to get started, just because a dog does not want to work untill they are over a year old.

No garentee that your pup is the sort you want just because it's parents were. They all replay the time *you* put in.


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## wendle

I was thinking about video taping my lgd too, but it's like watching paint dry most of the time as he is sleeping during the day. I figure lgd's get covered pretty well in the other forum too. Both types of dogs are very important in many operations. 
Even though there is no guarantee the pup is going to follow in his parent's paw prints , choosing a pup out of good working dogs behind him increases the likelihood of ending up with something good by quite a bit. If somebody is breeding two working dogs he is more likely to know their talents and faults. If a person is breeding two dogs that don't work, but are of a herding breed, then it becomes more of a crap shoot. Do that for a few generations and who knows what you get. 
I prefer to know not only the parents, but the bloodlines and some of their ancestors as well.


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## Fowler

I cannot understand a word of this video but I like it. And it's maremmas!!

[youtube]uNgf3qJY40E[/youtube]


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## Fowler

[youtube]L91qImuizYY[/youtube]


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## Ross

Sure why not make this a sticky!?


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## wendle

Thanks Ross! 
Here is a list of links to websites for herding dog breeds. I am not sure what is on each one, but looks like lots of information. 

http://www.herdingontheweb.com/dogs.htm


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## Fowler

*Livestock guarding dogs *are very different from the "other" livestock working dogs -- the *herding dogs*. Herding dogs use intimidation and actual physical force to move livestock. These dogs are not usually left on their own with stock; they serve as the herdsman's right-hand and typically remain with him unless sent after stock. When he is sent after the flock, the herding dog uses the "predator eye" to intimidate herd animals and move them away from him. When the "eye" fails, some dogs bark or nip to force stock to move. 

http://people.unt.edu/~tlt0002/livest.htm

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/companimals/guarddogs/guarddogs.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock_guardian_dogs

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/livestck.html

http://www.pinedaleonline.com/news/2010/05/Usingdogstohelpprote.htm

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Lives...ion,+and+a+summary+of+training+...-a019007843


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## Fowler

*A herding dog*, also known as a stock dog or working dog, is a type of pastoral dog that either has been trained in herding or belongs to breeds developed for herding. Their ability to be trained to act on the sound of a whistle or word of command is renowned throughout the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herding_dog

http://www.ranching-with-sheep.com/herding-dog-breeds.html

http://www.meekersheepdog.com/herding_dog_tradition.htm

http://www.sheep101.info/herdingdogs.html


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## Slev

I know I just cringe every time I read an ad about a "Great Pyr crossed with a Border Collie" "Great Farm Dog" it says... (never mind the centuries of breeding for distinctive traits exactly 180 degrees opposite each other..) poor pups..


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## HDRider

Do LGDs and herding dogs typically tolerate each otherâs presence well?


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## Fowler

HDRider said:


> Do LGDs and herding dogs typically tolerate each other&#8217;s presence well?



There is a video on this site somewhere that shows that they do. I'm still looking for it. If whomever posted it could you add it to our sticky links?

Thanks


Found it!! It's from Wendle's farm from the original OP. It's their video so I hope they dont mind me sharing it here?

As you can see in the video they have LGD's watching their herding dogs work. I think it's great!!

[youtube]osLtU8DdIS8[/youtube]


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## wendle

HDRider said:


> Do LGDs and herding dogs typically tolerate each otherâs presence well?


I would say they do if the lgd has been around herding dogs, and then the herding dog is decent with the sheep. I have been on a farm where the lgd attacked my dog, that particular lgd was eventually put down for attacking a human. Each dog is going to be different. The dog in the video(Zeus) has grown up around border collies. He is very good at tolerating strange dogs working his sheep. He will get upset if a dog gets rough, and then bumps and mouths the aggressor. The more the dog gets aggressive I think the more Zeus will get upset. One time I had a German shepherd out for lessons. Zeus didn't like the dog right off. It turns out the dog was very aggressive and couldn't be around sheep without a muzzle. It could have gotten ugly had the dog been turned loose on 
Zeus's flock. Even though Zeus looks passive in the video, he is right on the ball when it comes to protecting from coyotes. 
The LGD gets aggitated when his charges are upset. The herding dog can get more excited when the sheep are upset. It will depend on the dog. Some talented herding dogs automatically take the pressure off when they see she sheep get upset.


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## Faithful

This thread is for herding dogs only. Try the Guardian animal forum.


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## Shoupie

If you are a beginner with none to little handling experience and if you want a good dog who is worth a dang shell out the bucks and get a trained dog and the human training on how to work your new purchase. Dog training is an art in and of itself, stock dog training is a cut above that and for the time and money you would put into purchasing, socializing, feeding, vetting, and training a puppy you could get a fully trained stock dog who would be an asset rather than a headache.

You get to see more of their personalities when they are older, and buying a trained dog is a guarantee that this dog will work stock, you don't get that with a puppy. Even with good working lines instinct and drive will vary among puppies, some litters more than others, so even if you spend all that time picking a good line, socializing and training you might not end up with the end product you want.

You should also know that training a green dog on stock that are not dog broken is another potential nightmare and many trainers will absolutely forbid their students to work their green or intermediate dogs on anyone else's stock to prevent the dog from being turned off. Once a dog is turned off due to aggressive stock, a bad experience, etc. they are very hard to turn back on and will often times will have to be put through the basics again.

At the very least you should have a trainer to work with who can help teach you how to work stock and a stockdog as you are training your dog. Anything less then that would be setting yourself up for a very slim chance of success IMO.

You should research the breed you are interested in, learn their herding style, and see if that will fit with what you want your stockdog to do(as has been said above). When you are researching that breed you should also look up the common health problems of that breed and see if your breeder knows what these are and even better see that the breeder tests their adult stock for such health problems. A stock dog isn't worth a dang if it develops hip dysplasia.

When finding a trainer try to find one without breed prejudice or one that is too trial focused. You need your trainer to be flexible and conscientious of your end goal, who won't discount your aussie for using his voice, or a rottie for his less than perfect pear outrun. Your own feelings about training methods will dictate what you will tolerate from a trainer but you should know that in many cases the use of positive punishment(this is the addition of a punishment not a "good" punishment) such as a loud noise from a can full of rocks, to a cane being smacked on the ground in front of the dogs face, to a cane being smacked(gently) on the dogs neck/shoulders is necessary to curb and shape the herding instinct and to protect the training stock depending on how tenacious your dog is. However you should NEVER tolerate a trainer who beats a dog, yells at them more than 5 seconds after they have stopped their misbehavior, or is excessively violent with their corrections. Your trainer should be compassionate and should want the dog to enjoy herding as a happy dog learns faster and will retain more of the lesson and look forward to future instruction.

If you choose to get a puppy most trainers will insist that your dog know some basic obedience commands before being allowed in with the stock. You should not teach your dog directional commands but a good solid down stay will be necessary for their career as a stock dog and can be trained in the absence of stock.

Lastly you should never encourage your dog to herd things they might easily harm due to a low griping(biting) impulse. A dog with little patience can easily crush a duck, a hen, or a cat in the blink of an eye.

My stock dog is the most valuable tool on my farm I'd even put him above the tractor in list of importance, but in order to use any tool correctly you have to understand how it works, and how to use it effectively. The same goes with a stock dog. The more homework you do the better your relationship will be with your future dog and the happier you will be with your decision to use a stock dog.


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## Hairsheep

Just out of curiosity...could one take a "**** hound" and use it to guard sheep?
I remember as a kid, a big black and tan we had, would literally tear a limb off of someone, if they would decide to do any of us kids harm.
Just asking.


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## wendle

You might try asking in the livestock guardian animal section. Personally I wouldn't want to trust my sheep to just any dog not bred for that purpose.


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## Pops2

JMO and worth what you apid for it, but i think the homesteader or hobby farmer are the ideal place to try to keep working ability alive in herding breeds no longer widely used. if you're raising on a commercial scale you need aussies, BCs, heelers & curs. but when i get around to raising on a scale to feed just the family, i think i might try a sheltie, a samoyed or a belgian sheperd of some sort. but i will invest in professional training w/ someone that will train me more than the dog.


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## hastyreply

Talking about a farm dog to help with chores over a herding dog. I think there are many breeds that will do this, not all are typical herding breeds. Herding is just prey drive without the kill at the end. Most dogs have this. To have a dog to help around the farm I think the important thing is to have a dog who wants to please you and has a strong connection to you. Moving stock or holding stock is just a use of pressure in the right place. Knowing that applying that pressure behind the animal's eye will make them move forward and catching the eye or in front of the eye will stop them will help. this can be done by any obedient dog. 

To many times I've seen someone get a herding puppy and just not have a clue what to do with it or need that much dog. If you do go with a herding breed pick the dog carefully. You probably don't want the best. Sort of like having a race car to drive to the grocery stores and church. Pick a breeder who does what you want to do with his dogs. OR one who has been breeding these particular dogs long enough to be able to direct you to the right pup. Avoid a breeder who says " at don't work them but they are out of working parents" . There is no telling what you will end up with. 

Above someone mentioned shelties, I have known some but they tend to be very barkie, insecure and weak when they work. I think you would need to be really into any of the spitz breeds to work them. They just aren't as biddable as other breeds. 

I've seen labs and shepherd mixes make good farm dogs. A long time ago I knew of a Dalmatian, but he was an obedience dog first. Some terriers, also poodles. I have a friend who has a papillion who wants to help herd. I have also known a coonhound. 

A dog who wants to please you and has good obedience and has some interest in the stock is what you want. Speaking of livestock guardians, I had a GP who'd "imitate" my herding dog when I worked him. He would be just like a little kid "saying, look at me! I can run around the sheep too!" he was very funny. They are just lacking in their biddablity. He only did this when he felt like it didn't want to listen.


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## wendle

Here is a little clip I put together today showing :
Natural Cast-arcing out to gather the sheep as opposed to straight in. 
Natural Balance- Finding that perfect spot behind the sheep, causing them to come directly to me. 
After she reached the balance point, I told her to go right to push the sheep over to the fence. Otherwise she would have brought them to me. 
Square flanks- natural ability to square off from the sheep instead of directly into them during a direction change. 
Driving-moving the sheep in a direction other than to the handler
Biddability-willingness to listen to the handler. 
These Natural talents are bred into the dog, complemented, and refined through training. Not all dogs are capable of this kind of work. 

In this video I have Greta do a short gather, then ask her to flank to the right pushing the sheep over to the fence. 
Next I have her manipulate the sheep a little so they string out along the fence. Next she walks in to put pressure on a few sheep to leave the group(shed). She then leaves the other group, and continues pressuring the 3 to move them to the trailer. As you can see the sheep are not going in if the dog isn't right The first approach one sheep went around because she pushed a little too much at the wrong time. 
Usually I would be helping at the trailer(holding the door) and during shedding, but my job was the camera. 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNVS9x1f8Fo[/ame]
Same dog earlier this summer fetching sheep from out in the field(apx 270 yards). This shows where the natural cast, gather, stock read, and balance come in handy as she brings the sheep to me. 
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wsDOZ-hk58[/ame]


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## Ross

Moving this to the Working and Companion Animal forum.


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## ErikaMay

Before I moved to the farm (or even knew I had one in my future) I got a rescue Aussie shephard mix from the HS. Apperently long long ago she was born onto a farm and works the goats a little...but between some years and trauma she seems to have forgotten. 

She really *wants* to help out with moving the sheep, but right now they don't respect her so she usually has to nip them to get them to move. More often than not she drives them the wrong way :eyeroll: Would it be possible to train a 6 year old dog to work...and is it worth the time and money?

shes a healthy girl and will literally run around the farm for hours. Are there steps I can take to start training her myself before I can find a trainer? It would be so nice if she could actually do the work right. She clearly has the instinct and drive to please but......the dork just does it wrong. and gets beat up by the sheep when she's not looking (they will head butt her and now the lambs are trying to do it, too. She won't discourage the sheep unless they are being vicious, but she let the ram lamb hit her yesterday because BABIES ARE CUTE AND WE CANT HURT BABIES)


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## Alfie

Love my BC 7 and the Aussies; they are not guard dogs though. They herd sheep/goats/geese/ducks.


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## Alfie

ErikaMay, get the herding book by Vergil Holland. Then find a trainer who trains Aussies.


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## Andrea Layne

hastyreply said:


> Talking about a farm dog to help with chores over a herding dog. I think there are many breeds that will do this, not all are typical herding breeds. Herding is just prey drive without the kill at the end. Most dogs have this. To have a dog to help around the farm I think the important thing is to have a dog who wants to please you and has a strong connection to you. Moving stock or holding stock is just a use of pressure in the right place. Knowing that applying that pressure behind the animal's eye will make them move forward and catching the eye or in front of the eye will stop them will help. this can be done by any obedient dog.
> 
> To many times I've seen someone get a herding puppy and just not have a clue what to do with it or need that much dog. If you do go with a herding breed pick the dog carefully. You probably don't want the best. Sort of like having a race car to drive to the grocery stores and church. Pick a breeder who does what you want to do with his dogs. OR one who has been breeding these particular dogs long enough to be able to direct you to the right pup. Avoid a breeder who says " at don't work them but they are out of working parents" . There is no telling what you will end up with.
> 
> Above someone mentioned shelties, I have known some but they tend to be very barkie, insecure and weak when they work. I think you would need to be really into any of the spitz breeds to work them. They just aren't as biddable as other breeds.
> 
> I've seen labs and shepherd mixes make good farm dogs. A long time ago I knew of a Dalmatian, but he was an obedience dog first. Some terriers, also poodles. I have a friend who has a papillion who wants to help herd. I have also known a coonhound.
> 
> A dog who wants to please you and has good obedience and has some interest in the stock is what you want. Speaking of livestock guardians, I had a GP who'd "imitate" my herding dog when I worked him. He would be just like a little kid "saying, look at me! I can run around the sheep too!" he was very funny. They are just lacking in their biddablity. He only did this when he felt like it didn't want to listen.


I raise Border Collies and trial them. Prey drive is not something that I want in my dogs and is different from herding, which is the drive to control motion, not take down prey. I always say that no trial in the world matters as much as how that dog works for me when the chips are down and that was proven again last night as I had to go and bring a sick ewe with her newborn triplets out of a pasture full of other ewes and newborn lambs. The job was completed in about 20 minutes with no stress or trauma to any moms or babies. The notion of having just any old dog to do a job like that would scare me to death and woud not be a chance that I would be willing to take with my flock. Heck, out of all of my BCs, I only have one that I trust with a job like that and he's worth his weight in gold.


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