# Chevy Volt Won't Get 230 mpg



## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

Chevy has made an early statement the Volt will get 230 city mpg. However, that is only half the story. It is designed to run for 40 miles on purely battery power, then a small engine kicks in to constantly recharge the batteries during use. If all you are using it for is to say run down to the 7/11 for a gallon of milk and plug it back into the charger, you might not use any gasoline. Early calculations are if the vehicle is driven the gull 290 miles or so between recharges actual average mileage will be more like 50 mpg.

Say I worked in downtown Nashville and comuted 75 miles one-way, or 150 miles. Unless batteries were recharged while at work, it would run 40 on batteries and 110 miles on the gasoline engine. If recharged at work, then it would run 80 on batteries and 70 miles on the gasoline engine.

$40K for little more than a glorifed golf cart. As I recall the batteries will have to be replaced in 7-10 years at a cost of something like $16K. I suspect most would be scrapped rather than having a battery replacement.

Caught part of a report on a guy who purchased an all electric vehicle. If I remember correctly he was suppose to get 200 miles on a battery change and he said in actual use it was more like 160. It had left him stranded on the side of the road several times.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

Our 1981 ComutaCar 100% electric gets INFINITE miles per gallon, figured the way Chevy figured for the Volt. It has a 30+ mile range, battery replacement is about $900 every 5 to 7 years, but it has a top speed of 30 to 40mph, and is just fine for town and local use. Why can't the car companies be honest about technological issues, like range and mileage?


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## CamM (Dec 6, 2008)

Electric cars need a lot of improvement for your average commuter. I think a better long term solution is to get people off of cars and onto public transit or to move closer to work. 160 miles still sounds pretty good to me. That would work for most people around here who commute maybe 40 miles to work.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Comes with a 7500 dollar tax credit making it a 32,500 dollar car.

Make it a 28,000 dollar car,hey I paid that for my Jetta.Thats doable.

Thats also one HIGH performance 'golf cart'

And Im seeing 5 grand for the battery pack that should last 100,000 miles.Hmmm....same cost as a Jetta tranny replacement....Is that THAT far out of line?

I think its an awesome start.Get it mass produced and get those batteries produced on a high speed production line instead of handmade and the cost WILL drop dramatically.

However,at 40 G,its going to be a tough sell for sure. I dont think this car is going to make it,but if I could possibly afford it I would jump on it.Its very close to what Im looking for as my retirement vehicle,a car I can charge up at home on my own solar cells.

Sure I wouldnt get to drive it far or often on free power but take me out of the workforce that 40 mile range meets a large part of my needs.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Ken Scharabok said:


> Caught part of a report on a guy who purchased an all electric vehicle. If I remember correctly he was suppose to get 200 miles on a battery change and he said in actual use it was more like 160. It had left him stranded on the side of the road several times.


Man is an IDIOT. Try reading your 'gas' gauge FOOL.Me thinks I could figure that one out.:shrug:


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

But but....What will we do with the batteries??!!

Same thing we do with MILLIONS of cheap economy of scale batteries now,recycle the MILLIONS per year.


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## marvella (Oct 12, 2003)

yep, but at least they are working on it. in the 70's honda was making those nice little civics that got 60 mpg. they could at least start there while they work the kinks out of other stuff. batteries are a big problem in several aspects.

i wish we had mass transit too. i'd go to work earlier and/ or ride home later if we had it. unfortuately, those of us in the deep boonies will probably never see mass transit out this way. i grew up in buffalo and rode busses everywhere.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

To bad chevy dropped the ball on this one. They had something with the proto type that could have made it. A car for the greenies with a bad ----- attitude. A market that the Tesla roadster owns but could have been easily bumped out by the Volt costing much less. 

Nissian is going to get it's all electric car in the showrooms about 6 months before the Volt is out. At under $30k and the same federal rebate as the Volt it's almost a sure fired hit for the green commuter driver. It has a range of up to 100 miles on a charge.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

"Man is an IDIOT. Try reading your 'gas' gauge FOOL.Me thinks I could figure that one out."

Guess you missed the part he had an ALL ELECTRIC vehicle.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Ken Scharabok said:


> "Man is an IDIOT. Try reading your 'gas' gauge FOOL.Me thinks I could figure that one out."
> 
> Guess you missed the part he had an ALL ELECTRIC vehicle.


That and you can't just pull into the next station to fill it up.


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## mowrey1999 (Aug 25, 2005)

They had a interview with Bob Lutz of G.M the other nite on television and he wouldn,t answer any of the questions asked directly, when asked about mileage he did quote the 230 mpg but then said that the mileage was figured a little different than a conventional vehicle, So I am guessing since G.M is partially run by the gov,t and they want them to succeed they can now quote there mileage different than other companys and can justify it saying its a new technology not like the rest . Cost was around 40,000 dollars but would have a 7,000 dollar rebate, and they would only produce 10,000 vehicles the first year world wide, When asked about the battery life he said on the second generation vehicle about 10 years/that isnt the current vehicle which so far hasnt been able to get more battery life than 1.5 years according to experts. and when asked about cost to replace the batteries he pretty much avoided the question,but said there would be a good secondary market for them and it would help bring the price down, I really dont see why any one would want to but a 1st generation experimental vehicle and pay more than a prius, honda or even a VW Diesel since the first year models usually have several problems that have to be worked out .The other issue that I havent seen addressed is so far is the Volt hasnt passed any crash tests front or side impact without the batterys being damaged or broken so is the gov,t just going to let it go without passing ,The vehicle may look ok but doesnt it have to pass the same testing as other vehicles?
The last thing is toyota and Nissan are about to release the newest gas electric hybrids and the nissan with a system based on a system like GM but cheaper and toyota from what I read are supposed to be around 15-18000 dollars on the next generation of compacts coming out in 2010 with the next generation of gas electric hybrid even getting better mileage and being 1/2 the price of the volt, so as much as I would like to see G.M improve and make money it seems they are still behind the others and not ever catching up.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

Ken Scharabok said:


> "Man is an IDIOT. Try reading your 'gas' gauge FOOL.Me thinks I could figure that one out."
> 
> Guess you missed the part he had an ALL ELECTRIC vehicle.


Any respectable electrical vehicle has a battery level gauge or meter, equivalent to a gas gauge (notice the quotes around 'gas'?) so I agree that the man was an idiot, if he couldn't learn to operate his electric vehicle.


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## backachersfarm (Jun 14, 2005)

I really think these batteries are going to create a new crisis down the road. I believe they will become a hazmat nightmare. I would also like to hear how much it costs in electricity to recharge these batteries. No one ever mentions this. If people really think battery powered cars are better on the environment..they need to go to east Tenn where they had the large sludge disaster at an electric plant.

Sharon


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

IMO, solar roof mounted battery chargers need to be built into every electric/battery powered vehicle. You park the car at work and the batteries get charged by the sun. They would need an outlet for emergency electrical charges but the built in solar would be a HUGE selling point. 

Mass transit is great in theory. Not so good in practice, even in some large cities. The bus system in Columbus, Ohio is the worst in the nation. What gets to me is I have to pay for the stupid thing (taxes) but no busses run out to my area.


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## CamM (Dec 6, 2008)

Danaus29 said:


> Mass transit is great in theory. Not so good in practice, even in some large cities. The bus system in Columbus, Ohio is the worst in the nation. What gets to me is I have to pay for the stupid thing (taxes) but no busses run out to my area.


Our metro and bus systems work pretty well. And really, who wants to spend two hours commuting to work every day. I am thinking of working on a farm so that my proximity to work is a couple of feet.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

backachersfarm said:


> I really think these batteries are going to create a new crisis down the road. I believe they will become a hazmat nightmare. I would also like to hear how much it costs in electricity to recharge these batteries. No one ever mentions this. If people really think battery powered cars are better on the environment..they need to go to east Tenn where they had the large sludge disaster at an electric plant.
> 
> Sharon


 
i can't really speak to the hazmat nightmare, but one would hope most of the materials will be recyclable and safe in use.

ecologically, i think it is a plus to move to electric as much as possible. while most of our electricity is produced from fossil fuels, that is changing slowly and getting more efficient year after year. production from sources like solar and wind grow by leaps and bounds every year. hydro comes into play in many areas as well and there is always the hope that tidal and wave action hydro will be a player some day. nuclear electricity production will probably increase as well. another minor factor may very well be the hope that electric vehicles will be more efficient consistently and longer than internal combustion vehicles that often need tune-ups, etc.

let's not forget the economic boon that will benefit our country when we stop sending $1 trillion dollars annually out of the country, mostly to folks who hate us. the more energy produced here at home, the better for us.


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## backachersfarm (Jun 14, 2005)

> can't really speak to the hazmat nightmare, but one would hope most of the materials will be recyclable and safe in use.
> 
> ecologically, i think it is a plus to move to electric as much as possible. while most of our electricity is produced from fossil fuels, that is changing slowly and getting more efficient year after year. production from sources like solar and wind grow by leaps and bounds every year. hydro comes into play in many areas as well and there is always the hope that tidal and wave action hydro will be a player some day. nuclear electricity production will probably increase as well. another minor factor may very well be the hope that electric vehicles will be more efficient consistently and longer than internal combustion vehicles that often need tune-ups, etc.
> 
> let's not forget the economic boon that will benefit our country when we stop sending $1 trillion dollars annually out of the country, mostly to folks who hate us. the more energy produced here at home, the better for us.



We can all have hopes and dreams for this country...but the reality is most of them won't come true. My understanding about the batteries in the hybrid cars right now is that they aren't able to be recycled. All the newer tech being developed to generate electricity is a good thing ..but electric cars will be assembled faster then the current plants will be able to keep up. If a majority of folks go tp electric cars think how much the demand will raise. Can electric plants keep up? What affect will it have on cost. I personally cannot afford a $40,000 car.....nor a 4-5 yr old car that also needs new batteries.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Would there be enough roof space to charge the cars parked below if the entire roof was covered in solar collectors? I'm thinking of daytime parking while a person is at their job.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

Today's common vehicle batteries are highly recyclable. Essentially they are drained, then chopped up and the plastic and lead separated. Plastic gets turned into small pellets which will go towards new battery cases. The lead is re-refined for reuse. The liquid gets treated to remove any hazmat before the remaining water can be flushed away.

My understanding is the batteries in these new electric vehicle are entirely different than this type of batteries. For example, you may be able to refine cell batteries (such as used in flashlights), but not the disk batteries used in watches and calculators.

And how many flashlight-type batteries are recycled? I suspect the vast majority of them end up in landfills.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Ken Scharabok said:


> "Man is an IDIOT. Try reading your 'gas' gauge FOOL.Me thinks I could figure that one out."
> 
> Guess you missed the part he had an ALL ELECTRIC vehicle.


Thats why I put GAS in quotes,of course its electric,it still has a power meter


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

recycling for todays flashlight batteries varies from place to place. some businesses promote the recycling of batteries. municipalities are way behind because it is not cost effective. lots of lead acid car batteries used to end up in landfills and such, but now people are "encouraged" to recycle them to get their core deposit back. it should really be the same with any toxic product, IMHO, especially the billions of alkaline and lithium ion batteries being sold at places like walmart and lowes. charge a deposit fee and give a return for recycling. sure it increases the cost of doing business, but there comes a point when such simple things are a true burden on society and should be addressed. so many folks want the cheap and easy way out at the expense of others. also IMHO, responsibility for this type of thing should be forced on the retailer if not the manufacturer. any place like target, walmart or any convenience store, grocery store etc. should be required to have recycling facilites right in the parking lot. they make money from selling the stuff and are responsible for bringing tons of junk into each and every community. they should be responsible for providing a place where it can be collected for recycling.

it is no different with batteries in the next generation of vehicles. make recycling and collection a part of the business. enforce it with deposit and return fees factored right into the cost.


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## mowrey1999 (Aug 25, 2005)

Even though the volt is claiming 230mpg with the gov,t new way to figure MPG the nissan which will be out in 2010 is 100 percent electric going 100 miles on a charge, has 5 passanger capability and can go 90mph .they are saying it can recharge at home from a complete drain with either 110-220 or there will be a quick charge alternative to get 80% charge in 30 minutes. They are also looking into the option of changing batteries as a possibility when it gets low at a station , like exchanging propane tanks when its empty, Battery life expectancy is 5-6 years and still after 6 years would have 80% capacity and they have been looking in the secondary market to use the batterys as a alternative source of power in case of a power outage for your home for items like refrigerator and other items in case of emergency. I have not seen any official prices but according to automotive sources 25-30 ,000 dollars and it will qualify for the gov,t 7,000 rebate as the volt. It wont, be a gas electric hybrid it will just be electric, estimated MPG ? right now around 370 MPG but it doesnt use gas so I dont know where this fiqure is from.


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## barn-apart (Feb 10, 2005)

Why couldn't a universal recharge battery be buillt that could be swapped out at any recharge station in a matter of minutes. That would fix the range issue. Home charging systerm on the car would still be included along with solar chargers on the roof as well.
Just wondering.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

fishhead, you mean if they were parked in a parking garage and it was equipped with charging outlets? It should, if the solar array was large enough. In some cities they are already looking into and installing roof mounted solar arrays to power businesses. No reason why it couldn't be done for parking garages. The problem lies in getting the corporations to spend the money on the array and maintain the system.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

Well, OK, you are the owner of a parking garage. Do you spend the monies to put in solar panels, inverters and wiring to parking slots at likely a significant increase in slot rental or do you simple extend standard 110v electric outlets to parking slots at a slight increase in slot rental?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

IMO, considering how in certain areas I would get a huge tax credit for installing the solar system I would certainly have one installed. The cost of electricity keeps going up and up, the solar system would cost no more to maintain than the electrical, and if I could get most of the purchasing price credited back to me I most certainly would install a solar system. I would have designated charging areas for battery operated vehicles and a small additional (have you ever heard of a free parking garage?) fee for charging use. Reserved spots or maybe a locked outlet would have to be used. But the concept is totally doable.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I was wondering if there was enough surface area on the roof to recharge all the cars below?

As far as which makes more economic sense we need to include carbon and national security costs into the equation. We also need to include environment cleanup costs to coal fired power plant electricity.

IMO when we have a true accounting of all costs renewable/sustainable electricity looks pretty good.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

For the array you would have to look at not only the surface area but how far you can go up, maybe even panels on the south side of the building. And you would have to take into account cloudy days when you compute the size of your array. But if you had a grid-tied system it would be very workable. On days when you produce more than enough power your meter runs backward. Parking garages use a lot of electricity with the lights but there are ways to make them more efficient. The problem lies in the fact that the owners can simply charge more if their costs go up. There are currently no incentives to get them to reduce electrical useage. 

I could get into a whole rant about big corporations and how much electricity they waste just because they don't really pay for it, but that's for another thread.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Ken Scharabok said:


> Well, OK, you are the owner of a parking garage. Do you spend the monies to put in solar panels, inverters and wiring to parking slots at likely a significant increase in slot rental or do you simple extend standard 110v electric outlets to parking slots at a slight increase in slot rental?


You run wires to the slots from the grid powered BIG solar plant which is far less costly than using PV cells to make power.

What we do a lot of in California.Now just need lots more.Making power when demand is greatest,gotta love it!

And utilizing the power from the grid at night when demand is the lowest,also good for our conventional power systems that are way under utilized NOW at night.
THEN INVEST in the grid upgrades creating GREAT High paying jobs....OH WAIT,WE ARE DOING THAT NOW TOO.What my Nephew got hired to do at SCE,he is all into the upgrading of the system.Right now he is creating a computer program that determines which type helicopter at the job site can move which parts of the towers in the most cost efficient,time efficient manner for construction.

Not to worry,the grid will both grow and thrive based on demand,ie,PROFIT,its all being done NOW even as we debate the future.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

And T Boone Pickens? His 'plan' with the windmills was nothing but a smoke screen for his gas business and a huge water grab.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

"Not to worry,the grid will both grow and thrive based on demand,ie,PROFIT,its all being done NOW even as we debate the future."

Yes, but... Is it being done fast enough for supply to keep up with demand. Been a while since I've heard about brown-outs, but I suspect they haven't gone away.


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

Yes, these companies want to sell you $40,000+ "hybrids" or electric vehicles, since its easier to hide profit in a more expensive item. The technology has been available for many years to produce a sub $15k fuel powered 65 mpg vehicle, so why not these? Probably because there is not enough profit on low priced small vehicles, and in reality, North Americans may not accept ultra small cars in any real numbers since they're viewed as unsafe.

When you consider that very few people are going to purchase a hybrid or electric, an ultra-efficient fuel powered vehicle will probably do more "environmental good" than all these super low-emission solutions. 

Any real solution to transportion must involve an attitude shift from the larger vehicles to much smaller vehicles. Only us North Americans drive land yachts.

230 mpg in a Volt... whatever. I think we need a new method of determining efficiency, based on cost per mile : which should include everything from fuel efficiency, maintenance, insurance, depreciation, repair, electricity, purchase price, ect. Using MPG to compare something powered by electricity to something powered by fuel is just ridiculous.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

I wouldnt bet the Farm that the thing even gets built.


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## jefferson (Nov 11, 2004)

advertisers, like politicians, stretch the truth just a little bit.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

"Yes, these companies want to sell you $40,000+ "hybrids" or electric vehicles, since its easier to hide profit in a more expensive item. The technology has been available for many years to produce a sub $15k fuel powered 65 mpg vehicle, so why not these? Probably because there is not enough profit on low priced small vehicles, and in reality, North Americans may not accept ultra small cars in any real numbers since they're viewed as unsafe."

Diesel VWs back in the early 80s routinely got some 45 mpg. Compacts, but I wouldn't call them small.


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

Yes, there are lots of solid options out there for folks wanting fuel efficiency without having to resort to hybrids and electric vehicles. Unless you're trying to make some "I'm green" statement, these hybrids and electrics are not exactly cost effective.

What puzzles me is how we went from "land yacht" to "all electric" and basically skipped over any real emphasis on fuel-efficient vehicles which actually run on fuel.

We had the diesel Smart-Car here in Canada for some time (its now gas powered), but even those didn't sell all that well and they're fairly inexpensive. Just too small. Apparantly what we North Americans appear to want is a 3500+ pound electric vehicle, which has unlimited range, and even better if its an SUV. As I mentioned earlier, we have to get away from the "big vehicle" mentality if we want to make any real changes. Governments have to step to the plate as well, and give real incentives to be efficient. 



Ken Scharabok said:


> Diesel VWs back in the early 80s routinely got some 45 mpg. Compacts, but I wouldn't call them small.


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Ken Scharabok said:


> "Not to worry,the grid will both grow and thrive based on demand,ie,PROFIT,its all being done NOW even as we debate the future."
> 
> Yes, but... Is it being done fast enough for supply to keep up with demand. Been a while since I've heard about brown-outs, but I suspect they haven't gone away.


Bear in mind our 2000 brownouts,widely reported were in fact CORPORATE FRAUD and had nothing to do with actual supply.


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