# Fodder Beets and Radishes



## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I do not want to be entirely dependant on my hay man's work next winter, but I'm trying to keep my sheep grain and soy free. The traditional thing to do is to grow fodder beets and radishes. I've got the room to put in a small field of these. I've got a BCS 732 with rototiller. I can get a BCS potato digger attachment.

Anyone have experience growing root crops for fodder?

http://www.bcsamerica.com/attachments/root-digger/
Hrm.. It seems they've rebranded the potato tool as a generic root digger...

There is an antique root grinder in working condition for sale near me, but I can buy a new apple grinder for less, you think an apple grinder would work well on beets/radishes?


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Found these seeds: http://www.johnnyseeds.com/c-915-mangels.aspx


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## codymi (Jan 27, 2014)

An apple grinder should work just fine.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Hrm... The root digger is not compatible with the 732... Yet another reason why I perhaps do need a full sized tractor.


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## eruehr (Feb 22, 2007)

Turnips, mangles, etc. grow partly out of the ground - you don't need anything to lift them - just pick them up! It's that easy. Sheep and cows make short work of them whole too - no need to cut or chop them at all. In fact, they've found that the animals digest them better if they have to bite off pieces. If you feel you need to chop some to get them started, a spade works great to cut the roots in half giving the sheep a 'corner' they can start chewing in. I raise quite a few turnips and mangels for our cows - pulling and feeding are the easy part - storing them - that's where it gets tricky...


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

You might want to check with Highlander in the pig forum. He raises mangels and other root crops for pig feed.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

For storage, ideally I'd dig a root cellar into the side of our hill, but I don't think that's happening this year. I was thinking of using a stall in the barn (with an outward swinging door) and layering the roots in a large pile with hay. We do get rather frigid here, spoilage through freezing is a big concern. I'm hoping the hay will help insulate the pile and if some spoils keep the rot from spreading as quickly. The barn is a bit warmer than outside. My basement is nice and moist, but I think it's too warm for root storage.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

You're OK on the indoor storage as that's the conventional method that's been used for ages. Really doesn't take a lot of straw to insulate enough to prevent freezing in the colder zones. I stored some in a straw-lined pit a few years ago to experiment with getting seeds and worked well.

BCS does have something which would work to loosen the mangels but it's not for the 732. It's a ripper/subsoiler. It would be used by running it next to the row and would break everything loose. You could also vamp a two-arm cultivator to straddle the row and lift the mangels. Although they do grow mostly aboveground, pulling them manually is only for the strongest of backs if there's more than 100' of row. 

Anyone wanting Mammoth Red mangels, I can send a half-ounce for $5 and my profit would be 6Â¢. I forget how many that would be but believe that it was around 800 when actually counted. (Search the whole forum for my previous replies on the subject for confirmation.) I quit offering them when a couple "members" failed to come through with payment after I had sent the seed. 

Martin


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I think if I upgrade from BCS it will either be a 32HP or more tractor with standard 3-pt hitch and front bucket, or oxen.

I like the idea of oxen, but my hands are full enough right now. The tractor will be easier to obtain and maintain.


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## eruehr (Feb 22, 2007)

The mammoth reds do grow quite a bit deeper. I've never had much luck with those. The Golden Eckendorfs, on the other hand, you can push right over they grow so high! I only grow about a quarter acre of mangles as storage gets to be an issue - 10 tons or so, but turnips and rutabagas are easy to pull too. I start feeding the turnips in October when the grass starts getting sketchy, pulling and feeding the tops too. Then I start clamping up the rest of the turnips, rutabagas, and mangles. They say mangles need to be stored till Christmas, so I feed the turnips, then the rutabagas then the mangles - then hay....(well, a little hay all along...). Don't forget there's a lot of feed in the tops you cut off when you pull and clamp them. Turnips and rutabagas will do fine in a pile in the barn - feed them first and use them up before it gets too cold - then move on to the other stored stuff. Some in the barn, some in clamps and some in the cellar. I try to concentrate on using them to stretch into the fall/early winter as much as possible rather than through the whole winter - it takes a lot of space to store enough to make a difference..
it can really stretch the hay! And the nice fresh feed is good for them.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Isn't a mangle just a type of turnip? Why store before starting to use? Or is this an old timing tip of when they are really needed?


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

How do you measure the resulting tonnage?


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Mangels are not even remotely related to turnips. They are the same as chard, sugar beets, and common beets and will readily cross with each other. They all are Beta vulgaris. Turnips are Brassica rapa while rutabagas are Brassica napus. They will not normally cross with each other.

FWIW, a "mangle" is actually an iron for pressing large items such as sheets. Mangels are what are referred to as fodder beets. (Correct spelling might be handy when searching for more information.)

Martin


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## eruehr (Feb 22, 2007)

Weigh a basket, pail or whatever-ful (actually several and get a good average). I make my clamps 10 bushels. To measure yield, mark off several areas of so many square feet, weigh the crop in that area (again- do several from different parts of the patch and get an average) and figure out the per acre yield at 43560sq. ft./acre.

I grow all three, turnips, rutabagas and mangels because they're planted at different times and require care at different times and are better for feeding at different times. Spreads out the work. Mangels are planted in May, Rutabagas in June, Turnips end of July (here in N.E. Ohio) - spreads out the risk a little too. Turnips are pulled and fed tops and all in October-November, Rutabagas pulled, the tops fed and the roots stored and fed when the turnips are gone and the fodder beet fed when the rutabagas (swedes) are gone. The beets are more sensitive to freezing and the turnips aren't supposed to last as long in storage, but I've fed a lot of clamped turnips in April right before the grass is ready. They can get a little gamey, but most animals don't mind a bit getting anything fresh in February and March! You have to feed hay too, more or less depending on how many roots you have to feed, and depending on what you're feeding grain too. 
Start small - try some turnips this summer and feed them into the fall to see whether you can't go through at least November on stockpiled forage and pulled turnips (you can graze the turnips of course, but you won't get the 100% utilization you'll get if you pull them.)


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Hay we have, but the quality is not good enough, looking to balance it with root vegetables.

I purchased one ounce of mangel seed. Tempted to do the others too, but this is already a huge step in gardening for me. I'm not a great gardener. We have the space, and if they are not all getting planned at once I could find the time to get them in the ground, but then I have to keep up with that much more cultivating.


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## eruehr (Feb 22, 2007)

An ounce of mangels will make a nice little patch to start with. Then, in July till up some ground and thinly sow some plain old purple top turnips. Wet or dry on the 25 of July! I don't know whether you need to sow yours a week or two earlier - can't hurt. These aren't the tender little morsels you're looking for for your kitchen - let these get big and woody and nasty - the sheep will love them! Thin them. This is the single most important thing for turnips, mangels, anything! Every minute you spend thinning will repay you a hundred times. I find that the turnips I sow in July grow so quickly that at most I have to run the wheel hoe through them only once - most years they don't even get that and they stay ahead of the weeds really well. Rows about 18" apart, thinned to 6" or so in the row. Actually I have an old Planet Jr. - I set it one size smaller than the setting for turnip seed and it sows them thinly enough that I don't have to thin them. Planted on plowed sod I regularly get lots of turnips the size of volleyballs - most larger than softball size. For an ounce of mangels it's totally worth the time to plant them one at a time a foot apart in rows 18"-2' apart - or whatever is easiest for you. They go in earlier so they'll need cultivated a couple of times.
It's some work, but not too bad if you don't have a large number of animals.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Thanks, Eruehr! Great to have someone else here who have grown the things. I've grown both the Mammoth Red and Golden Eckendorf. The GE's were not much more than oversized yellow beets to me and tasted the same. Friend's horses were not impressed with them but willing to eat enough of the reds to get a belly ache and not want any more for a few days. 

One important part was covered and that is keeping the weeds out. RR Sugar beets were developed for a very good reason and that was to avoid millions of dollars spent on migrant manual labor to hoe the fields. Beta vulgaris does not like competition from any other plant including itself. 12" spacing may be a pain when planting but the reward is great. In fact, many growers start the plants in 144 or 288 plug trays and then transplant. Purpose there is to not only get the highest return for number of seeds but also that many seeds are actually clusters and will produce more than one plant. Since I have only planted a maximum 20' or so row at a time, done so only from transplants. 

Traditional planting date for rutabagas here has long been 4th of July. It followed the early potato harvest. Stayed with that last year and planted on that date. Still have some nice 5" globes in clamp storage. They also don't like competition but there usually isn't much left after the 4th of July and will quickly shade out almost anything which tries.

Martin


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

eruehr said:


> It's some work, but not too bad if you don't have a large number of animals.


I currently only have five ewes, so it should be manageable to supply them. I might even need to sell off some extra if I plant the whole ounce of all three kinds. Eventually I'd like to work up to a larger flock.


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## eruehr (Feb 22, 2007)

That shouldn't be too bad. I'm not sure how much sheep need (ours would turn themselves i side out for mangels in late winter. They never got many because I gave them mainly to the cows...). I give the cows a little less than a wheelbarrow full (+ tops) of turnips in the fall, tapering off as we moved to stored feed - till they're gone. I've never managed to store enough to last all winter. The growing is the easy part! Storing and then feeding out of the clamps through the winter is a bear...
here's a short article I found after a quick search - I might try transplanting some this year too to see how that goes.
http://www.sheepmagazine.com/25-3/nathan_griffith/

Also have a look at William Cobbett's book, "A Year's Residence in North America" - available through google books.

It never ceases to amaze me how different people can get different results! i've had Golden Eckendorfs 8" in diameter and 20 inches long (no- really - lot's of 'em!) planted the same exact day one row over from red mangels, same fertilizer, same everything and the reds were little more than glorified carrots! The animals aren't crazy about the beets right away - some writers even say they're bad for them. I think they develop a lot of sugars in storage because raw fresh mangel in the fall tastes kinda plain and nasty, but a slice in March is super sweet! The main thing you have to be careful of when you feed them is that you don't get trampled to death in the stampede!!


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

One also has to buy mangel seed only twice. Save a half-dozen or so to plant back and you're set for life. However, plant them at least 3' apart as they become a massive plant easily 3' across and just as high. Didn't bother counting the seeds but conservative estimate might be well over a thousand per plant.

Martin


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## Kittikity (Oct 21, 2004)

Can you feed these kinds of things to goats? What about milk goats? I know if they eat certain things it can slightly flavor the milk. Don't think I would want milk that tastes like beets or turnips.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Sugar beets and mangels do not taste anything like a common beet. in Europe, cattle are fed fodder beets and carrots to sweeten the milk. Search for Lobbericher carrots to find the one used for feed. It's one of few carrots which are considered a fodder type. 

Martin


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Carrots would also be high in beta carotene and keep some of the yellow color of summer milk?


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## eruehr (Feb 22, 2007)

I've never tasted turnip in the milk from our cows fed turnips, rutabagas and mangels but some are more sensitive than I. Cobbett says anybody concerned that the butter tastes of swedes needs more of the "sweet sauce" that hard labor puts on whatever food is available!

Carrots, lb for lb pack a much larger nutritional wallop than the other three, but when you're picking them up and handling them by hand, a 5lb. mangel takes the same effort to put up as a carrot that weighs several ounces (don't know what carrots weight!). Multiplied a few tens of thousands of times and you can put up a whole lot more nutrition with mangels/turnips/rutabagas!

Honestly, I'd do silage - but it's logistically and financially crazy for just the few cows, etc. here.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I bought an antique root grinder last night. I guess I'm committed to the project now.


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## eruehr (Feb 22, 2007)

hehehe, it's kinda fun in a twisted kinda way! Now see if you can find an oscillating wheel hoe - like this:

http://planetwhizbang.blogspot.com


I grew up using old, old, old ones from my grandparents truck farm on the muck - this new one I made last year is great! really makes it easy to do a huge root patch!


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Someone mentioned carrots, and it got me thinking, one of my best friends in college is a amateur carrot breeder. He's been experimenting with all sorts of color/flavor combinations. I might be able to get apple-boxes full of rejects from him to supplement beets/turnips/rutabaga I grow myself. I'm also putting in parsnips for the family, so we can test feed the extra of that too.

Maybe I should forget about tomatoes this year with so many root veggies on the list!


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

eruehr said:


> hehehe, it's kinda fun in a twisted kinda way! Now see if you can find an oscillating wheel hoe - like this:
> 
> http://planetwhizbang.blogspot.com


Can get one new pretty reasonably: http://www.leevalley.com/US/Garden/page.aspx?p=66873&cat=2,44823&ap=1


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

dlskidmore said:


> I purchased one ounce of mangel seed.


Oh no! What was I thinking! The box came today and I thought: "Gee that is awfully big for one ounce" Inside is one pound, :shocked: my packing list says one pound, my shipping confirmation says one pound, my receipt says one pound... :facepalm: Oh my... That's a lot of mangels. I may ask some of the other local sheep folk if they want any.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

How well does mangel seed keep to next year?


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

dlskidmore said:


> How well does mangel seed keep to next year?


At around 1600 per ounce, that's at least 25,000. That many seeds may just about fill a quart jar. Find a tight-fitting lid and store them in the freezer. They will last forever.

Martin


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Paquebot said:


> Find a tight-fitting lid and store them in the freezer.


One quart jar held about 2/3 of the seed. I'll put up the remainder in a smaller jar after I plant some.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Re: Carrots and milk

http://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/heirloom-carrot-varieties-zewz1303zsch.aspx#axzz2zaJOlcKg



> This was the carrot fed to cattle to make the milk yellow for butter production, one reason why whole milk years ago was so rich in beta-carotene.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

If a pound won't fit in a quart jar, they are probably just as off the plants. That is, each is a cluster. That's not so important with those who start in trays but would be a bugger to work through a seeder. That's why sugar beet seed is almost always processed so each is a single seed.

We missed a good chance to promote fodder carrots here. I offered Lobbericher in the old forum in 2002 and everything got confused about the time when the changeover to HT took place. Ended up with 3 or 4 ounces of German seed which never got a chance to be shared. I will say that they were a darned good carrot despite their massive size. Dug them with a spade and they'd break off at a foot deep and still an inch thick. Only local variety which comes close is Yellowstone.

Martin


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Had a long discussion with my carrot buddy last night and we compiled quite a list of likely candidates for fodder carrots. I'll try to transpose that tonight.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Any reason not to stay in trays now? I have the equiptment to start two trays at a time, and I'm running late to do my own peppers and tomatoes this year.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Varieties of carrot either known for size or historically used as fodder carrots:

St. Valery
Oxheart 
Flakkee 2/Autumn King
Lobbericher
Jaune Obtuse du Doubs
Belgian White
Lunar White


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

dlskidmore said:


> Any reason not to stay in trays now? I have the equiptment to start two trays at a time,


(Two heating mats, lights for six trays.)


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Benefit of starting in trays has been mentioned before. The seeds develop in clusters. Takes an extra step and equipment to break then down into individual seeds of uniform size for mechanical planting. That avoids doubles and skips. If started in trays, multiples can be divided and planted rather than the extras discarded if thinned in the field.

Offer still on for a half-ounce packet of Mammoth Red for $5. Sending one to Florida today. Bought 2 more from Jung's on spec so I'd have them handy if someone wants them. 

Martin


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Just thinking about timing. It is not yet time for outdoor sowing.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I had a contractor in the barn today admiring my root grinder, but he was horrified that I was going to use it instead of make a museum piece of it.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

eruehr said:


> hehehe, it's kinda fun in a twisted kinda way! Now see if you can find an oscillating wheel hoe - like this:
> 
> http://planetwhizbang.blogspot.com
> 
> ...


Opinions on the seeder attachment?


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I'm considering this wheel hoe:
https://hosstools.com/product/single-wheel-hoe/

$200 with oscillating hoe attachment.
The seeder attachment is pricey, but looks like it could save a lot of work.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

The "DIY" wizbang model still comes close to $200 if you don't have a woodshop and buy the hardware kit, spacer, handles, and wheel.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

dlskidmore said:


> Opinions on the seeder attachment?


Hubby talked me out of the seeder attachment. He would like to see me take good care of a small bed before investing in tools to make it easy to sow more than I can keep up with. I also did not see any indication that the spacing between seeds was adjustable.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Rototiller finally fixed, BCS did a fine job of it although hubby is wooped. Getting the first row planted tonight.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

An ounce of seed goes a long way in the "little" garden. Got 4 rows in with 0.2 ounces of seed. Hubby is not convinced I can take care of it, and is not excited to rototill the big garden. I admittedly did a bad job last year. We had so many setbacks at planting that by the time I was done planting, the first rows were hopelessly overgrown, and I never caught back up. This year NO TOMATO BASKETS! Ug, in our rocky soil we ended up having to dig giant holes to put the baskets in, and that was a huge waste of time. Also we have a proper mower this year, and a good supply of mulch that needs to come out of the barn, so I'm not cutting my mulch with a scythe. The Hoss wheel hoe is a big help, for digging my seed trench I mounted one of the three cultivator tines and ran it down the row. (Not very precise, but quick and straight.) Oh, and my BCS did a much better job of rototilling than the barn tennant's rototiller did. There are times the BCS frustrates me and I wish I'd gotten a used full size tractor, but there are some jobs it does very well.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Started on the "big" garden today. I made the horrible mistake last year of mulching too deep for the rototiller but still shallow enough that weeds grew up through. This year only mulching on top of cardboard or using short grass clippings that will till in nicely. So I'm going along pitching off the thickest parts of the much, hoping the tiller can get through the bottom layer.

"Little" garden coming along. One little row of rutabaga in. I've got beet seedlings popping up. I didn't get the depth consistent so it's a bit scattered. Hopefully the deeper ones are still coming up just a bit later. If I succeed at what I've planted so far, I might get the hoss seeder next year.

The wheel hoe doing a decent job, although next time I really should mark my seed rows with string so I know exactly where to hoe. I gave each row a wide berth to be on the safe side.

I've got so much extra beet seed, I may as well do a little late planting when the big garden is opened up, although my potatoes and squashes are going in first. Saving a row for turnips too.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Still no sign of beet seedlings in the gap. Horrible germination rate. Perhaps I tilled too well? The soil is very dry because it is so fluffy. In this climate I'm not used to having to water much after the initial watering in, and I often just wait for the day before rain to plant so I can even skip that. The living beets have weak roots, they tip over when you remove weeds around them. They are at least big enough now I can easily ID them. They looked too much like lambs quarters when first sprouted. I replanted more seed in the gaps. In the widest gap I also planted radish seed to mark the row, since part of my previous problem was knowing where to cultivate.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

The radish markers are working well, I can hoe a lot closer to the germinating row than when I was marking with just string.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Rutebega came up better than the beets. I sowed too thickly and will have to thin them soon.


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## bja105 (Aug 25, 2009)

I planted mangel beets this year, with seed I bought for last year. I never got to it last year. So far, I don't think any sprouted. The other beets I planted on the same day are all up. I think this was a failure.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

What supplier did you use for the seed? I'm pretty sure my problem is in cultivation and not the seed. Not sure if it is planting depth or dryness due to over tilling.


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## Metalman (Dec 8, 2012)

dlskidmore said:


> I do not want to be entirely dependant on my hay man's work next winter, but I'm trying to keep my sheep grain and soy free. The traditional thing to do is to grow fodder beets and radishes. I've got the room to put in a small field of these. I've got a BCS 732 with rototiller. I can get a BCS potato digger attachment.
> 
> Anyone have experience growing root crops for fodder?
> 
> ...


Wife bought some Yellow Mangle seeds on a Johnny's close out last year. Planted a row around our 50' x 100' pilot garden.

We had a strange winder in Central Texas, but the mangles finally reached the general size of a standard football, with about 1/2 or more above grade.

Darn gopher ate the bottom off some, as well as Swiss Chard. One of our heifers sneaked through the garden gate and managed a mouthful of mangle leaves before I got her out. From then on, she was like a kid trying to sneak into the cookie jar.

Wife started pulling some mangles and tossing them over the fence to heifers. In the beginning only the sneak would eat them, but the others kept watching what she was doing. Finally all were converted and would fight over a mangle. as one writer noted, they can chew chunks off the mangle, but an axe cut makes it easier.

Neighbors chickens will eat the tops, stems and mangles.

Our soil is very sandy and mangles are generally easy to pull. When ground is dry, a spading fork will loosen a mangle for easy pulling.

When we have chickens, we anticipate growing both yellow and red mangles for winter food.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Just found this little tidbit, which might make even grain feeders interested in adding beets:

http://books.google.com/books?id=my...ved=0CDoQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=ram beets&f=false


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

In part way through reading it. At 6 lbs per head per day, they did not see issues. At 17 lbs daily, there were frequent, sometimes fatal, kidney problems.

The root fed rams put on more weight and had better marbling than hay/grain alone. They did not try roots instead of grain.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

dlskidmore said:


> In part way through reading it. At 6 lbs per head per day, they did not see issues. At 17 lbs daily, there were frequent, sometimes fatal, kidney problems.
> 
> The root fed rams put on more weight and had better marbling than hay/grain alone. They did not try roots instead of grain.


so just as with people, a balanced and diverse diet is better. I'm not sure why so many folks fight against that concept. Some people fall in love with the standard corn/soy ration. One of my neighbors got for free a few tons of potatoes and fed his pigs nothing but. he couldn't understand why they weren't gaining faster.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I overdid the radish markers. They're crowding each other out, never mind the later germinating beets. The chickens are really enjoying the radishes. Going to try to get turnips in this weekend. 

I missed a few beets when thinning, and pulled some that were a couple inches in diameter. The sheep gobbled up the tops but took a while to consider the roots. I didn't haul out the grinder yet.

I've enjoyed the experiment so far, but I don't think I'm going to be able to produce in the 1.5 ton range I need while holding down a town job. I've written to the market gardeners around the corner from me. It might be too late to ask for that kind of quantity this year, but maybe next year they can plant a row or two for me.

Things I'd like to do differently next year: Use a seeder to get more even seeding spacing and depth, plant the rows further apart so I can get the wheel hoe in after the leaves get bigger, get the sweeps attachment for the wheel hoe so I can get under the leaves as they get bigger. The oscillating hoe was great around the seedlings, but became less and less useful as the plants got bigger.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

FYI, something that also came up as an alternative feed: Brunswick Cabbage aka cow cabbage. Sources differ on cabbage, just like beets it can be overfed. Causes copper deficiency of all things due to excess sulphur content, also some mention of iodine deficiency. Other sources praise it as a great feed for flushing and winter feed. I think it sounds fine as part of a rotation of winter feeds.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Bah! Slugs. Everywhere! Devouring my roots! Chickens already thinks beets are tasty, so they're probably not a good countermeasure, but if I'm about to loose all the beets anyway, it's free feed.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Found it odd that some of the plants were flowering, thought beets were biennial. Turns out I was not looking at a smallish beet, but an overgrown raddish.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

How did your turnips do? Easy to field plant by spreading with oats. If ground is soft they can be pulled. Mow with a scythe when oats have set seed for hay, pull turnips, late fall and pile in hay. It doesn't hurt the turnips to cut tops when making hay, they just regrow tops. No weeding. IF you can water, oats will regrow, turn animals in to eat regrowth and any missed turnips. Or just pasture the turnips and oats in the fall....James


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I never got to the turnips. Some planting guides say I can still put them in now, but it is a rare December here that I want to be digging in the garden. Rutebega doing ok, roots more underground so I can't see how big they are. The slug problem only affected one area, I think I still have a good share of beets going.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Found a livestock nutrition chart that includes beets and cabbage: http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/dairy/facts/03-005.htm Cabbage, broccoli, and potatoes all have higher as-fed TDN than beets. All are less potent than grain/soy. (Not that that deters me at all. My main feed is grass/hay, which is much less potent.)


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Found some gold in Sheep Management: A Handbook for the Shepherd and Student He feeds hay, grain, roots, and cabbages. In his directions for feeding wethers for show:

Feed cabbage and turnips rather than grain to lambs on hot summer days
Lambs should have all the "green feeds" they can eat early in the season, including cabbage, rape, green clover, turnips, and rutabagas, "roots", along with hay.
Early cabbage becomes available for feeding August 10th, use 1-1.5 lbs per head daily
October 1st start with rutabagas, as excessive cabbage use may make the sheep "soft". Feed 2 lbs of rutabagas and 1 of cabbage daily.
November 1st drop the cabbage, keep up with 2 pounds of "roots", but they will be more "solid" for show on mostly grain and hay.
Late in the season, excessive green feeds makes lambs soft.
Green feeds can be fed to floundered lambs that must come off of grain while recovering (he even cautions about too much hay for a floundered lamb, while modern thought is that you feed hay only for any stomach issues)


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

So glad I embarked on this project. We had issues with the hay contractor again this year, got first cutting very late, and likely won't get second cutting at all. Talked to three other farmers and no-one is interested in doing my hay right. Farmer around the corner says I should talk to him later about his post halloween surplus pumpkins. I've found a hay supplier to just outright buy some hay from this winter. Looks like in the long run I'm going to fence in a lot more of the place and buy all my hay. I looked into equipment, but I don't have enough land to make it pay better than just buying the hay, and I can keep more stock if I convert the hay land to pasture. I'll be repeating this year's experiment until I get it right. Will probably start harvesting Mangels and Rutabaga soon. There was some damage, but a good number of roots survived. Considering leveraging fowl in the future to control slug population.


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## idigbeets (Sep 3, 2011)

What kind of hay field do you have where you only get 2 cuttings in NY? Fescue, alfalfa, orchard grass, johnson grass, and others here all get 4-6 cuttings.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

It is meadow hay, and if i had my own equipment it would get three cuttings. It is rather damp for heavy equipment when I'd rather be doing first cutting. I have more problems with the contractor than the field. There is no excuse for only getting one cutting.


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

What I did was fill it half full with wood chips first then compost on top. Those beds are just full with earthworms and my harvests are super. The chips hold water like a sponge and slowly decay adding more nutrients. Then I put 2-3 inches on top to mulch


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

haley1 said:


> What I did was fill it half full with wood chips first then compost on top. Those beds are just full with earthworms and my harvests are super. The chips hold water like a sponge and slowly decay adding more nutrients. Then I put 2-3 inches on top to mulch


Constructed soil works pretty well on a small raised bed scale, not so much when planting a large garden. It takes a lot of work to turn that much compost while it's being made, and I don't have a full sized tractor. (I'm sure the folks in the extreme composting thread will disagree with my scale problem, but they have nice tractors and dump trucks...)


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

dlskidmore said:


> Constructed soil works pretty well on a small raised bed scale, not so much when planting a large garden. It takes a lot of work to turn that much compost while it's being made, and I don't have a full sized tractor. (I'm sure the folks in the extreme composting thread will disagree with my scale problem, but they have nice tractors and dump trucks...)



Forum must have hicuped, I post this in a different thread and it ended up here


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## Slatewiper (Nov 22, 2012)

idigbeets said:


> What kind of hay field do you have where you only get 2 cuttings in NY? Fescue, alfalfa, orchard grass, johnson grass, and others here all get 4-6 cuttings.



I grew up on a dairy farm in Chenango County NY just NE of Binghamton. Most summers we averaged 45,000 bales. First cutting usually started around the first day of summer and if the weather cooperated we could be done by the end of July. That's working 7 days a week. We'd start 2nd cutting by mid August and be done by Labor Day. We would only second cut our best fields. If we had a late fall and the weather stayed warm we might get in a small 3rd cutting (1000 to 1500 bales) at the end of September. That only happened about 1 year in five. 4-6 cuttings? That is impossible unless you are cutting your hay waaaaay too early, not waiting long enough for the hay to dry properly and/or you're not waiting sufficient time between cuttings. I can't see ever getting 4-6 cuttings anywhere in Pa. The weather just won't permit it.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

There is the problem of efficiency vs quality. Cutting "to early" yields low quantity but good quality, and can increase total annual output. But... you spend more fuel and labor per bale, and most farmers are hurting more for fuel and labor than land or hay quality. There are plenty of other ways to get calories in to an animal if your hay is too stemmy.


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## idigbeets (Sep 3, 2011)

I've moved just south out of PA into MD. This year we got 4 cuttings of AL/OR hay fields. Last year we had 5. That includes a wait period to send energy back into roots in between 3rd and 4th cut this year. 

It is totally possible to get quite a few cuttings in PA and MD. I agree, if you gotta wait on a custom cut, you will have a rough go of it. We cut every 28 days almost like clock work. Right now it's a little tough timing our last cut as the rain is pretty consistent, but the fields dry down quickly to get back in and mow/rake.

Not making near as much hay as you are, only around 500 squares (yes plenty dry) and the rest is 500-600 wrapped haylage rounds, so dry down isn't as big as issue, we bale it up and wrap around 40-60% moisture, which is great to feed the Angus and dairy cows.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Dry down a big issue here. One of the top 10 cloudiest cities in America. Hay is cut when weather allows, which depending on the year can steal a cutting for you, but there were four good windows this year before my contractor did first cutting.


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## Slatewiper (Nov 22, 2012)

dlskidmore said:


> There is the problem of efficiency vs quality. Cutting "to early" yields low quantity but good quality, and can increase total annual output. But... you spend more fuel and labor per bale, and most farmers are hurting more for fuel and labor than land or hay quality. There are plenty of other ways to get calories in to an animal if your hay is too stemmy.



You also run the risk of weakening the stand if you cut too many times. Hay fields are not like your lawn. You have to give it time to recover. Alfalfa is particularly susceptible to over harvesting.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Monoculture and meadow may need different management. In a meadow we need to purposely weaken some weed species with frequent cutting. All a balance...


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/animal/feed/ffc/documents/FodderBeets_FS053E.pdf


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I find on the growing chart an interesting note, that the farm that did more poorly than the others at growing beets did better than the others growing rutabaga, and in fact produced more rutabaga per acre than beets per acre. If that sort of thing could change from year to year, it's another argument for diversification of crops.


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## Slatewiper (Nov 22, 2012)

dlskidmore said:


> I find on the growing chart an interesting note, that the farm that did more poorly than the others at growing beets did better than the others growing rutabaga, and in fact produced more rutabaga per acre than beets per acre. If that sort of thing could change from year to year, it's another argument for diversification of crops.



Have you ever looked into planting Rape? The seed is relatively inexpensive and it's very easy to establish.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Rapeseed is high in omega 6 oils, my feed program is specifically designed to lower omega 6 in the diet. But is it nutritionally similar to cabbage family if harvested before going to seed? Yield/harvesting advantages?


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Slatewiper said:


> Have you ever looked into planting Rape? The seed is relatively inexpensive and it's very easy to establish.


I planted a mix of rape, turnip, and ryegrass on 8 acres today. It is an experiment in soil cover, deer feed, and soil prep for next spring. We'll see. It was definitely inexpensive.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Might consider trying this: http://www.seedaholic.com/the-root-vegetable-collection.html


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## Slatewiper (Nov 22, 2012)

dlskidmore said:


> Rapeseed is high in omega 6 oils, my feed program is specifically designed to lower omega 6 in the diet. But is it nutritionally similar to cabbage family if harvested before going to seed? Yield/harvesting advantages?


Can't say about the omega 6 oils but it is a member of the cabbage family. It's scientific name is Brassica rapa. It's very vigorous, loves the heat but can do well in cooler weather, has a decent taproot for soil improvement. The only problem is when your livestock trample you into the ground trying to get at it. It's very popular in wildlife mixes for deer. I've seen deer walk through a field of Ladino clover to get to the rape.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

http://eddyridgegrassland.com/fodder-beet-harvest/


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## idigbeets (Sep 3, 2011)

Looking good ! What percentage of their diet over the winter is brassicas? Have you noticed any issues w/ pregnant cattle (Brassicas are very low in copper which is important closer to spring calving)


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

This year a very small percentage, we only grew a little test garden. The intent eventually will ble about 2 lbs per sheep per day, not sure of feeding rates for cattle. The excess Sulphur can also cause iodine deficiency, so one must not rely solely on brassicas. This is a calorie concentrate to add to main diet of hay, squashes also will be used.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Ideas on protecting the harvest from rodents? The plants in the garden nearest the compost pile took a lot of damage, I'm feeding those out now to the chickens. There is definitely a large critter (rat?) hole in the barn. I have plastic bins to fit most of this year's harvest, but I'll be buying pumpkins soon and that won't be an option for them.


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## idigbeets (Sep 3, 2011)

I've built big wooden boxes out of 1/2" plywood on top of pallets and put hardware cloth over the top to keep the rats/mice/squirrels out of our harvests of grain, pumpkins etc in the past and that worked well. Then just move w/ a pallet jack, skid loader w/e.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I don't have room to manuver a fork, so my boxes would have to be liftable empty...


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Farmer 1 came through on a bargain load of pumpkins, didn't put hay over it because I was waiting on farmer 2, but he didn't come through before our first hard freeze of the year. I can still break open the fruit with a sledgehammer, and the sheep still eat them, but I fear they might go bad if we get a good thaw.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I had some pumpkins that lasted until Christmas. By mid December I was tossing about half the pumpkins instead of feeding them out, and right around Christmas there was nothing left to salvage. Freezing alone wasn't so much as an issue, but at every thaw more would go bad. Overall I think I got my $50 worth though, that which did not feed my sheep now fertilizes my garden.

The beets, rutabaga, and radishes were still going strong under the same storage temperature. (They were in plastic bins to keep humidity up instead of in straw for insulation.) A couple near the bottoms of the bins got some mold on them and went to the chickens. A layer of sand or some drain holes might be a good idea next time. I'll be feeding out the last beet tonight, and the rutabaga and radishes are already gone. 

I just ordered seed for next year. On the list of things I hope to have time to plant: mangel, turnips, rutabaga, parsnip, cabbage, hubbard squash... I'm going to do some starts indoors this year, and transplant directly into my enormous compost pile. (Barn cleanings.) I've read good things about planting directly into fertilized and rotting bales of hay, might work. Might also be too dry, might need the compost to rot a full year before doing that.

My root grinder needs some rehab work. It grinds roots after a fashion, but I think a sharp cheese grater from the house would go faster. The animals can eat the whole roots just fine, just have to avoid hitting somebody in the head while tossing them in, and break them up small enough that there's one piece for every 1-2 sheep well spread out. (Pumpkins they could do 3 ewes per piece, but roots they got more defensive over.) We don't really have a great setup for feeding out grain or shreds anyway, so the whole roots are a decent way to feed. 

I'm picking up a machete to make breaking feed up easier next year, the sledge hammer worked but was somewhat wasteful and more work than should be necessary. The billhook worked fairly well, but the hook angle kept it from slicing all the way through.

I also picked up sweeps for the wheel hoe. The oscillating hoe was great around seedlings, but when they got bigger I really wanted something that could get under the leaves.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

dlskidmore - just viewed your website, very good. where do you get your seed for the fodder veggies, like the big beets, mangles, and radishes?


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

DEKE01 said:


> dlskidmore - just viewed your website, very good. where do you get your seed for the fodder veggies, like the big beets, mangles, and radishes?


A variety of places.

I like Harris because they are local to my area (varieties should be well suited for my area and my money stays local), so I get more common varieties from them:
http://www.harrisseeds.com/storefront/p-544-rutabaga-american-purple-top.aspx

Not everyone carries Mangels, I got those from Johnny's (they also have a good selection of fodder carrots, but I've not tried them yet)
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-7521-mammoth-red-mangels.aspx

The radishes were an ordinary table variety that I planted early and let grow through late fall. I think I picked those up in a store, may have been Burpee, but lots of places carry them, sometimes under a french name:
http://www.burpee.com/vegetables/radish/radish-french-breakfast-prod001161.html
http://www.harrisseeds.com/storefront/p-478-radish-french-breakfast.aspx
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-7300-davignon.aspx
http://www.fedcoseeds.com/seeds/search?item=2248

New to the lineup is "cow cabbage". I had four suppliers listed, but I'd recently heard someone speaking highly of Annie's, and when I checked them out they had some of the other things I wanted cheaper than Johnny's. http://www.anniesheirloomseeds.com/products/Brunswick-Cabbage.html

I recently became aware of a new supplier that is pretty economical, I'll try them next year: http://www.fedcoseeds.com/ I resolved not to buy any more seed when my friend pointed them out, but they have this giant radish they're not going to offer again next year: http://www.fedcoseeds.com/seeds/search?item=2282
My buddy said he'd add it on to his own order.

I do have one additional advantage, my town was a national top producer of root vegetables before everyone went to corn and soy. We have excellent soil for growing roots, and I expect even better things as I amend my garden with more manure.

I've been working on a chart of suppliers of the rarer seeds I find interesting: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B1ZswBOzXScDYqBuDOB0ZQElhBUlgrEaJiJes7UQ8X4/edit?usp=sharing

(I just opened that doc up for comments if anyone wants to suggest other suppliers or varieties.)


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Oh, I did order a few more vegetables for sheep this year:
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-8855-white-icicle-short-top.aspx
http://www.anniesheirloomseeds.com/annies-winter-squash-mix/
http://www.anniesheirloomseeds.com/products/Blue-Hubbard-Squash.html


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

dskidmore - woo woo, many thanks. :goodjob:


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I don't know what all the squashes were that I got from the pumpkin vendor, but keeping ability was highly variable. The best keepers had tougher skins, green did better than orange, smooth did better than bumpy.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I'm trying to decide how much to plant indoors this year. The low germination rate of the mangel seed suggest I should at the very least pre-sprout it if not grow seedlings indoors. Everywhere I've looked only recommends direct seeding for beets.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

DEKE01, you're planning for pigs? Do you have an idea of what appropriate rations are for pigs? Adding pigs is our project for this year. Do they have the same pitfalls with excess sulfur and phosphorus consumption that sheep do?


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

dlskidmore said:


> DEKE01, you're planning for pigs? Do you have an idea of what appropriate rations are for pigs? Adding pigs is our project for this year. Do they have the same pitfalls with excess sulfur and phosphorus consumption that sheep do?


I had two pigs, penned at a neighbor's house because until a couple of months ago, I was on the farm only 2 or 3 weeks a month. My plan is to get 6 feeders in June because my hens will be laying by then and my garden and orchard should be productive. 

Previously, my pig nutrition program was what ever 2 nurse friends brought home from the cafeterias in the hospital and nursing home where they worked. To keep it easy for my neighbor, commercial pig chow was available for feeding when the free foods ran short. 

Now I'm on the farm full time, I should have running water in the orchard and several key areas in the pastures in a few weeks. Lots to get done but chickens, people food, pigs, and cattle (totally new to me) are all in the grand plan for this year. All in fairly small scale so as to make my learning mistakes small.


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## carolb5 (Nov 14, 2007)

dlskidmore said:


> I'm trying to decide how much to plant indoors this year. The low germination rate of the mangel seed suggest I should at the very least pre-sprout it if not grow seedlings indoors. Everywhere I've looked only recommends direct seeding for beets.


I start my mangels in the cool greenhouse. Then transplant to 6-packs. The extra grow time makes for larger roots. Or plant a row thickly as early as you dare and transplant to permanent lacation. I did space mine 1 foot apart each way. Beets are multi seed clusters. Thin or transplant to allow for better growth.

Carol
Near Canadian border in Montana


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

I just read an interesting bit in "Harris On The Pig" about growing peas, threshing the peas for pig food, and serving the pea straw to sheep...


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Beet seedlings started indoors... Parsnip seed didn't come up, will try again.


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