# A college degree is not worth it, think again



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

In 2018, households headed by millennials with a bachelor’s degree or more earned about $105,000. Households headed by millennials with some college (those with an associate degree and those who attended college but didn’t get a degree) made $62,000, a difference of $43,000. And households headed by high school graduates earned about $49,000, a difference of $56,000.

The gap was less significant for prior generations. The income difference between late boomers with a bachelor’s degree and late boomers with some college was about $29,000. For late boomers with a bachelor’s degree and those with a high school degree, the difference was $41,000.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/19/how-much-millennials-earn-compared-to-their-parents.html


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Then you have a guy like this

The West Chicago resident Alex Sanchez, is a bit finance obsessed. He watches YouTube videos on budgets and investing, tracks his net worth on a white board in his bedroom and aims to save more than $7,000 each month. In addition to his full-time job as an overhead lineman at an electric utility company in the Chicagoland area, he has two side hustles to help pad his savings account and investment portfolio.

Sanchez has big plans. He’s a fan of the FIRE — financial independence, retire early — community, and he’d like to be a millionaire by 30.

But he’s not just interested in his own financial future. As a first-generation American, he’s also planning to help his parents, who immigrated from Mexico and met in the West Chicago area, retire comfortably one day.

Sanchez’s income fluctuates monthly, depending on the number of overtime hours he works at his day job, and how much business his lawn-care company drums up. He recently got a promotion at work that puts him at a base salary of $120,656. With a $10,000 annual bonus and all of the overtime he’s accrued, he’s on track to earn more than $200,000 this year.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/19/thi...earns-230000-per-year-working-three-jobs.html


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

The fact that those that attend college but do not graduate have a higher income than those that do not go to college tells me the college degree pretty much is without value .
What the value is is in the Expectations and ambition that those that go to college Have and the perseverance that those the graduate exhibit.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

@Alice In TX/MO can you help @AmericanStand with that sentence?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)




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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

It's because, since the recession, every job posting (outside of straight up trade skill type jobs) seems to require some college or a degree.

Not because it's necessary for the position, but because they think it filters out people without the skills/work ethic/ambition necessary to attend/complete college.

Source: HR manager relative, relative that is a direct supervisor who sits in on HR hiring interviews, and watching people I know very well trying to find jobs during the recession and after the recession.

It's not the college degree itself they're looking at, it's what the degree signifies to them which has not much to do with what you had to learn academically to get the degree and more to do with what type of employee they think you'll be. Correctly or incorrectly, it's now just a filtering device.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Not strange at all that college educated people prefer the same type of people to work with.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

I wonder which demographic carries the most debt.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I wonder which demographic carries the most debt.


I went to college, no degree, no debt.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I went to college, no degree, no debt.


I went, got degree, paid debt off in 7 years

Best investment, by far, without a doubt, I ever made.


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## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

I tend to think what a person desires to do as a career should determine if they go to college or university not just the potential pay scale. I had four children , one boy and three girls. My son died early in life but had attended a business college before he got sick. He aspired to be a charted accountant.

The oldest girl went to nursing school and didn't like it and switched to law and never looked back. She has been a lawyer over twenty years now.

Her sister thirteen months younger quit school in grade ten even though she was a A student. She is a perfectionist and striving for perfect grades gave her an ulcer. She determined nothing she wanted to do in life required higher education. So she made her living dog grooming and training horses for people. She has had her own grooming business for over twenty years. At 39 yrs she took the high school exam just to see how she would do and had a near perfect score.

Our third daughter was home-schooled and went on to university. She made her living working as a consultant re-organizing businesses to run more efficiently.She also did the hiring and firing for a major company. Presently she is working on a doctorate degree in education.

Our grandson finished high school an A student and didn't want to go to college or university. He has worked in a bank and as a prison guard. Presently he has decided to pursue banking and is training as a loan's officer.

His sister who is eighteen months younger finished university. She works for a bank three days a week as this was her choice as she was working full time. She is an aspiring novelist and devotes her extra free time to writing. She is frugal and makes enough to take care of her self.

From my family I can see each are individuals with their own aspirations of what success is. One isn't better or more successful than the other.We never told any of them how to live their lives but they understood what ever they chose to do it was their responsibility. Whether they earned a little or a lot they understood to live within their means. All did what thy chose and are happy with their lives. Which in the end is what really counts. I always say different strokes for different folks.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm not sure the degree is the biggest factor in the study. Having the drive and work ethic to complete the degree may mean that these folks are working harder for their employees, therefore making more money dollars. Seth


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## secondhandacres (Nov 6, 2017)

My opinion is it’s not the degree that has value. It’s the knowledge you gain getting that degree that has value. Your ability to leave the cave every day kill something and drag it back for supper has value. That can be done with or without a degree. IT for example, I think a 4 year degree in IT is useless. By time you make it through those 4 years of training the info you were taught is out of date. Much better off taking certifications and getting started working in that field. 

That being said, both my kids have college funds. And I’m brain washing them every day, they are going to college. They get to choose what field they study as long as I think they can make a decent living doing it. My kids won’t be taking left handed puppetry as a major. 

The student loan crisis is only a crisis because you and me are guaranteeing these loans made to kids. You want to fix it then stop loaning a 18 year old kid 100k to go get a education in something useless across the state line. I worked my way through school and came out with no student loans. My kids will only get to use there college fund money if they follow my wife and my direction. Control freak.... yep! But it’s my money and my kids. If they listen they will be productive members of society and not whiney participation trophy goobers with lots of student loans


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

DD is now a principal, just started working on her Doctorate. She has some debt, but is making more than I was when I retired. I have a Masters and considerable hours above that. Probably enough to have the title Dr.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

It's a sifter effect. The sort of people who finish a degree probably in general have more smarts and determination...may have even succeeded without it. Those who have some but didn't finish, fewer "economic success" qualities, and high school or less....they are what's left over. Average, or below average.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

lmrose said:


> I tend to think what a person desires to do as a career should determine if they go to college or university not just the potential pay scale. I had four children , one boy and three girls. My son died early in life but had attended a business college before he got sick. He aspired to be a charted accountant.
> 
> The oldest girl went to nursing school and didn't like it and switched to law and never looked back. She has been a lawyer over twenty years now.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I love your post.

The point of this thread is to do what satisfies you, and makes you self sufficient.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Seth said:


> I'm not sure the degree is the biggest factor in the study. Having the drive and work ethic to complete the degree may mean that these folks are working harder for their employees, therefore making more money dollars. Seth


I have known people that worked very hard, and made very little money.


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## kotori (Nov 15, 2014)

I went and by the grace of my parents came out with no debt. lucky enough to get a job within a few weeks of job hunting. at least half a dozen of my peers weren't so lucky and are stuck in minimum wage jobs trying to pay off their debt. just having a college degree isn't enough anymore it seems, they want research and experience in your field. I had put in a couple hundred hours volunteer work in my field and that landed me the job i'm at -- $15/hr and while I'm putting a hefty chunk into savings each month, someone with student debt and rent and living expenses could easily have no wiggle room or even have to pick up a second job.

ETA: there is definitely a disconnect of people thinking they have to go to college, then ending up with a degree and being stranded. I know tradesmen that make more money than graduates but are still seen as being inferior for not having college degrees.

Its almost like going to college is a pushy cult that has lost touch of the original objective...


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

secondhandacres said:


> My opinion is it’s not the degree that has value. It’s the knowledge you gain getting that degree that has value. Your ability to leave the cave every day kill something and drag it back for supper has value. That can be done with or without a degree. IT for example, I think a 4 year degree in IT is useless. By time you make it through those 4 years of training the info you were taught is out of date. Much better off taking certifications and getting started working in that field.
> 
> That being said, both my kids have college funds. And I’m brain washing them every day, they are going to college. They get to choose what field they study as long as I think they can make a decent living doing it. My kids won’t be taking left handed puppetry as a major.
> 
> The student loan crisis is only a crisis because you and me are guaranteeing these loans made to kids. You want to fix it then stop loaning a 18 year old kid 100k to go get a education in something useless across the state line. I worked my way through school and came out with no student loans. My kids will only get to use there college fund money if they follow my wife and my direction. Control freak.... yep! But it’s my money and my kids. If they listen they will be productive members of society and not whiney participation trophy goobers with lots of student loans


My degree was in IT, and far from useless. It is the ticket you need to go to the show.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> The fact that those that attend college but do not graduate have a higher income than those that do not go to college tells me the college degree pretty much is without value .


Then you can't read a simple bar graph.
The 'Value' of completing collage is CLEARLY charted.



> What the value is is in the Expectations and ambition that those that go to college Have and the perseverance that those the graduate exhibit.





AmericanStand said:


> Not strange at all that college educated people prefer the same type of people to work with.


I want to deal with people that have an actual education in the subject I'm trying to discuss with them,
Someone with ordered, structured thinking, enough education to be present in a conversation, and can keep up with that conversation.
We call them 'Professionals'.

You know, someone that understands the electric, water & sewer lines need to go in BEFORE the foundation is poured,
Someone that understands you start at the foundation and work UP...

The WORST kind of person to work with is the type that pick a front porch light, then tried to tack together a house behind it, then try to put a foundation under it.
So YES! I do prefer to work with professionals, people with an actual education and know what they are doing, and that's why professionals group together...

Practical or formal, an education is the one thing no one can take away from you, it's yours forever.

Collage for the sake of 'The Collage Experience' is a keg & bong party with a $100,000 cover charge.
Current 'Entrance Applications' is pretty much 'Standardized Testing' that admits the biggest liars, not the most likely to have aptitude for any given discipline.
Some sociopath that claims/lies about sports, community outreach, all kinds of superfluous crap,
Or,
Someone that is all over the place and hasn't concentrated on a particular discipline.

It's REAL easy to point out the difference between random, scattered interests, someone unfocused...
And someone focused, disciplined and on a direct path,
When was the last time you saw a protest in front of a TRADE SCHOOL?
When was the last time you saw an idiot dressed up in an ANTIFA or Tea Party costume in front of an Apprenticeship program?

I can cure ignorance with education & experience, but can't give anyone aptitude, ability or focus so that education/experience gets used.
But at least collage degree people aren't on welfare, they generally do work somewhere...


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## secondhandacres (Nov 6, 2017)

HDRider said:


> My degree was in IT, and far from useless. It is the ticket you need to go to the show.


And I bet you have spent plenty of time since obtaining your degree taking new certifications. It’s a must in this field, never stop learning.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

secondhandacres said:


> And I bet you have spent plenty of time since obtaining your degree taking new certifications. It’s a must in this field, never stop learning.


I always said it is the only career you totally relearn every 4 years


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HDRider said:


> My degree was in IT, and far from useless. It is the ticket you need to go to the show.


IT is one of those weird "almost a trade" fields, though. It's also one of those fields, depending on what you specialize in, where what you learned to get the degree may or may not be applicable to the job you get. My son was a CS major (software engineering) and in his first job out of college ended up working with proprietary software that he had to learn from the ground up. Theory from school was helpful, but he said he really never used much that he learned in 4 years of college beyond that at that job. Anyway...

A lot of college degrees are kind of pointless for the actual job you're going to get in the field. It's more about doing your time and getting the piece of paper you need to open the door into the career with a lot of them that aren't technical fields. Even in some technical fields, beyond learning how the math or science works becomes pointless after a few years. My mother (who was a microbiologist/chemist before her recent retirement) used to complain about this all the time. They were pushing her to go back to school in her later years to get at least a Masters so that the company would be able to justify her working in the position she had been working in for decades, because the position "required" a PhD for new hires. Never mind that she was more than capable of doing it with just a Bachelor's, and had been doing it longer than said new hires had been alive.

A lot of the degree demand is filtering applicants, or pointless hoop jumping, or justification for a salary level/position without the degree having any real impact on someone's ability to do the job.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

JeepHammer said:


> Then you can't read a simple bar graph.
> The 'Value' of completing collage is CLEARLY charted.
> 
> 
> ...


Lol 
Correlation and causation are two different things. 

In fact most of the rest of your comment makes that point.
Trade schools for instance or at Union School is for those who have a laser focus on one particular thing but neither one results in a college degree. 
Both result in increased value to labor. 
Don’t read something into the chart that it isn’t there.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mish said:


> IT is one of those weird "almost a trade" fields, though. It's also one of those fields, depending on what you specialize in, where what you learned to get the degree may or may not be applicable to the job you get. My son was a CS major (software engineering) and in his first job out of college ended up working with proprietary software that he had to learn from the ground up. Theory from school was helpful, but he said he really never used much that he learned in 4 years of college beyond that at that job. Anyway...
> 
> A lot of college degrees are kind of pointless for the actual job you're going to get in the field. It's more about doing your time and getting the piece of paper you need to open the door into the career with a lot of them that aren't technical fields. Even in some technical fields, beyond learning how the math or science works becomes pointless after a few years. My mother (who was a microbiologist/chemist before her recent retirement) used to complain about this all the time. They were pushing her to go back to school in her later years to get at least a Masters so that the company would be able to justify her working in the position she had been working in for decades, because the position "required" a PhD for new hires. Never mind that she was more than capable of doing it with just a Bachelor's, and had been doing it longer than said new hires had been alive.
> 
> A lot of the degree demand is filtering applicants, or pointless hoop jumping, or justification for a salary level/position without the degree having any real impact on someone's ability to do the job.


No doubt the technology you learn in school is not what maters.

I made money because I got out of coding and into delivering large projects and making people deliver value.

My daughter got a BS in Accounting. She decided it was not her cup of tea after a few years working in that field. Went through a year's self study boot camp on coding, and now is a highly sought coder.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol
> Correlation and causation are two different things.
> 
> In fact most of the rest of your comment makes that point.
> ...


Why is it either/or with you?

College pays off, training in trades pays off, both do if you put in the work, and deliver value.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I didn’t say it was either or but the Conclusions made in the article are just opinions


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol it’s funny even the Peter they quote to make their point says get a medical degree,
You know get into one of those jobs where it’s the OJT that makes it valuable not the Book learning.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Why is it either/or with you?
> 
> College pays off, training in trades pays off, both do if you put in the work, and deliver value.


You don't walk out of 'Collage' and into a $100k job very often...
You do come out of collage with a crap ton of debt (unless your parents are RICH).

Stand did point one thing out,
Trade schools (no matter who runs them) crank out people that get things done, actual hands on producers.
One person doing actual work is worth a 100 'Liberal Arts' paper holders in my world.

Nurses & doctors save lives, electricians keep the lights on and machines running, carpenters & steel workers make buildings those machines go in, and machinists make those machines, farmers keep us fed, transportation workers get the food, machines, lumber, steel and products where they need to go...

I've delt with 'Graduates' quite often, and unless they have dirt under their fingernails I can't communicate with them.
I'm sure they do _SOMETHING_, I just don't understand it, and they don't understand what I do.
What I'm really dislike strongly is dealing with someone with a 'Degree' working outside their field, being completely ignorant of the field they are working, but absloute confidence in their 'Education' and abilities, which is absolutely ZERO where they are currently positioned...

It's even worse when it's a boobtube 'Degree'...
"I watched all the videos on boobtube!" Is not an education or experience.
What you saw was a snippet which *May* or *May NOT* even be factual.
*IF* you did catch a snippet that was factual, you don't have the basic education to apply it.
I really dislike job interviewing these days...
10,000 hours of boobtube doesn't qualify you to sweep the floors!
A 'Liberal Arts' degree doesn't qualify you to sweep the floors...

There are dangerous machines around here that will grind you into pulp, and boobtube or collage doesn't teach common sense...


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I agree there are times when a degree is not worth much.

Just when we thought colleges could not spout loonier ideas, we have a new one from American University. They hired a professor to teach other professors to grade students based on their “labor” rather than their writing ability. The professor that American University hired to teach that nonsense is Asao B. Inoue, who is a professor at the University of Washington in Tacoma in interdisciplinary arts and sciences.

http://walterewilliams.com/academic-stupidity-and-brainwashing/​


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## secondhandacres (Nov 6, 2017)

JeepHammer said:


> You don't walk out of 'Collage' and into a $100k job very often...
> You do come out of collage with a crap ton of debt (unless your parents are RICH).
> 
> Stand did point one thing out,
> ...


Believe me.... I’m not rich. Spend my days working my tail off so that my kids don’t have debt walking out of college. Most people today in the USA make enough money to pay for there kids college. They just need to make different choices, like stay out of the car dealership. Can’t tell you how many of my peers are in debt up to there eyeballs and can’t figure out why. Your driving it stupid! Sell it and drive junk like me. At least your kid can go to college


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

JeepHammer said:


> But at least collage degree people aren't on welfare, they generally do work somewhere...


I learned several trades without a degree or going to trade schools. I did pay attention in my high school shop class which covered a lot. I've never wanted for work nor been on welfare, food stamps. I'd still be working today were I able.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

He didn't really say that now did he? 
I won't bother asking for a link.
Googlefu knows.


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## Hazelnutiy (7 mo ago)

First of all, higher education is necessary for those who love self-development and strive to learn more. I never considered getting a higher education as a prospect for further work, because if you are talented enough, no one will look at whether you have this piece of paper or not. All employers are only interested in is whether you can perform the required work. But for example, I am now finishing my second college - asa college hialeah with a degree in business administration and I want to say that it was extremely interesting and useful for me. Firstly, now I have the opportunity to work in several areas, at least I understand them enough, and secondly, I got a lot of life experience and became much more erudite.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Em, no. Homesteading is by itself a process of self development and the desire to learn more and requires no higher education.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Hazelnutiy said:


> First of all, higher education is necessary for those who love self-development and strive to learn more.


I disagree. If you want to learn, you will learn regardless. You don't need college to learn.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Higher education is one option for self-development and learning more, but far from necessary. I have more formal education than most (BS, MD, MDiv, plus 100+ course credits outside of those degrees) but I've learned far more outside the classroom.

For most people, it is going to increase your income. It's not necessary for that either, but it takes a different kind of person to quickly climb the ladder to six figures without college.


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## KC Rock (Oct 28, 2021)

Knew a few engineers from south california. Had me degrees from places like cal tech. Had huge bills and instead

of going into a direct salaried , they went out contracting. Wichita was ideal for them. Way cheaper place to live

than california. And 50 to 70 $/hr plus (important) time and a half. It cycles but with all the aerospace work in the 

area, employment is a good chance ... for a degreed person.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

In todays job market, I think college is pretty pointless unless you are going after very specific high paying field such as medicine, accounting, engineering, law, etc. where you can expect to be making $200k or more in a few years. Just about anybody that has reasonable intelligence, can pass a drug screen, is willing to do a little physical work, and presents themselves decently can walk into a starting job of $40k, be up to $50-60k in a few years with some OT, etc., and if willing to train and take on additional responsibility can be in excess of $100k in fairly short order. No college expense and you get into the workforce and earning much younger.

Nothing wrong with liberal arts degrees, etc. if you just want to do it for the education and fun and can afford it, but good luck earning much of a living, and don't ask the rest of us to pay off your student loans.

I've got five siblings all of whom attended some college, several with degrees. Not bragging, but I've built more wealth than any of them going to work straight out of HS. The degree is nothing more than a ticket to the dance in many instances, you still have to put in the work.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Interesting conversation and many good points made. But let me interject another thought I've had for many years: The idea of pressing a HS grad right into college is not necessarily the best path. I believe many young adults would do well to get out and get a job and get some real life experience. Not burger flipping or car washing. So many youngsters have NO idea of what they want to do for a career field until they actually get out and do something and have to pay their own bills. If nothing else they may learn what they DON'T want to do. I was intrigued when 'Dirty Jobs'' Mike Rowe began stressing the trades. Really a good idea in these days and times, depending where one lives and options available. Skilled tradesmen are in demand and draw impressive wages.

Heck, a lot of folks who complete a four year program end up doing something completely different anyway. I was an imaginator (?) of things and specialized in fixing stuff I had never seen before. I still do but I'm less imaginative these days. I was a IAMAW Journeyman machinist. I did general machine shop work, welded anything, built production machines and tooling, programed CNCs while working my way through the university system for a BS in Manufacturing Eng. I took 7 years. I lasted less than 5 years in an engineering career. It sucked. I went back to working with my hands. I blew the doors off. Then I went broke. Then I did it again but not so bad - I got smarter with resources. But this was me.

How does one mentor a youngster these days? Dad and Mom, you watch for the signs. one son was out with me in the field or in the shop. The other was trying to set records solving Rubix cubes. Both are profoundly successful in adult years. The girls, (one lost) are kicking butt.

Now the down side: there's not one a one who will take over here. They are in their metro ways. It's really hard and they are riding the tide. They love to be here but can't handle it, or their wives can't. This place will end up with a low bidder. This s a something I didn't expect.


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## Adirondackian (Sep 26, 2021)

Whose better off? A person who goes to college for 4 years, comes out with 150k in debt, works his way up the latter for 7-10 years before finally making 6 figures....or the guy who learns a trade, gets out 2 years sooner, no debt, and starts making 50-60k within 4- 5 years?

I guess the answer depends on alot of other factors but its not so cut and dry as "annual income".

I'd also add that a person who is driven to make money is probably more likely to go to college....but that person would probably achieve a higher than average income with or without it. Also, amongst the cohort that didnt go to college, you have a larger percentage of dropouts, losers, slackers, addicts, delinquents, and etc... They drag down the average. If you never went to college but are smart, hardworking, and driven, those statistics may not mean anything to you.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Adirondackian said:


> A person who goes to college for 4 years, comes out with 150k in debt, works his way up the latter for 7-10 years before finally making 6 figures


Someone with that kind of college debt that still takes 7-10 years to reach six figures is pretty hopeless anyway. An intelligent person who gets a useful $30k degree and plays it well should reach $100k/year in five years or less. And many of them can double that in another ten years. Money isn't everything, though. Lots of people will be better off in the skilled trades.

I had no idea what I wanted to do, so none of my education is directly applicable to what my career ended up being. I wasted a lot of time and money, but that all played a part in getting me to where I am.


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## Adirondackian (Sep 26, 2021)

ryanthomas said:


> Someone with that kind of college debt that still takes 7-10 years to reach six figures is pretty hopeless anyway. An intelligent person who gets a useful $30k degree and plays it well should reach $100k/year in five years or less. And many of them can double that in another ten years. Money isn't everything, though. Lots of people will be better off in the skilled trades.
> 
> I had no idea what I wanted to do, so none of my education is directly applicable to what my career ended up being. I wasted a lot of time and money, but that all played a part in getting me to where I am.


i havent met too many people who start at 30k and get up to 100k in less than 5 years. In fact I dont know anybody like that but I guess it happens. 100k is still a significant milestone and most people dont get there before 40, college or not.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Adirondackian said:


> i havent met too many people who start at 30k and get up to 100k in less than 5 years.


I'm not saying starting at $30k/year but with a $30k degree. A bachelor's degree (doesn't much matter where it's from) should start them above $50k/year on day 1, unless they chose a bad field. It's not rare to double your salary in the first five years out of college. If you prove yourself you climb fast. I'm almost 40, pretty sure most of my friends except the teachers and maybe a couple tradesmen make well over $100k by this point. Maybe not representative since my friends aren't the types to get degrees in useless subjects and then work at Starbucks instead of a real job.


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

A lot of jobs that require a degree never even approach 100,000 a year.

I agree, don't get a degree for those jobs, but somebody has to do them.

My 20 year old nephew is starting an apprenticeship around 25 an hour, he'll be at 40 or more within 5 years. No 150,000 dollar debt either.

No college needed. The real wage money these days is in the trades.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Undergraduates

Applied mathematics - *Median starting salary: *$67,112
Physics - *Median starting salary: *$67,541
Biomedical engineering - *Median starting salary: *$67,800
Mechanical engineering - *Median starting salary: *$68,621
Industrial engineering - *Median starting salary: *$68,682
Materials engineering - *Median starting salary: *$70,958
Aerospace and aeronautical engineering - *Median starting salary: *$71,350
Electrical engineering - *Median starting salary: *$72,540
Computer engineering - *Median starting salary: *$75,022
Chemical engineering - *Median starting salary: *$75,301





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www.usnews.com


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Adirondackian said:


> i havent met too many people who start at 30k and get up to 100k in less than 5 years. In fact I dont know anybody like that but I guess it happens. 100k is still a significant milestone and most people dont get there before 40, college or not.


It has probably happened but not anything most folks know about.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Wages will always limit your top income to the number of hours you can work. It's pretty standard to work around 2,000 hours/year in the US, so $50/hour gets you to $100k. Not bad money at all, you can certainly live comfortably in a lot of places on that. And of course you can work more to make more, to a point. But if you don't work for wages, the top end is limited only by your own ingenuity, hard work, etc. That applies to everyone, degree or not. I know an old electrician who sold his business for over $40 million a few years back.

$150k college debt isn't all that common. It definitely happens, but most Harvard degrees don't even cost that much when it's all said and done. Average debt for a bachelor's degree in the US is around $30k. Even that is too much to finance as far as I'm concerned, but as part of a plan to boost lifetime earnings by a million bucks or more, it's a reasonable route for some people.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Average salary ten years out of college (age 32) is $132k. And that includes all the humanities majors dragging down the average.









College students expect to make $103,880 after graduation – almost twice the reality


Today's college students expect to make around $103,880 in their first, post-graduation jobs – but the average starting salary is actually $55,260.



www.usatoday.com


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

There was a member on HT several years ago who posted a link to an article that stated a salary of 70K was the sweet point of happiness. Now, of course no mention was made of the number of family members, area of the country, demographics, etc. There are members here with annual incomes 25K or so, with kids, and that they were able to supply their needs and quite happy about it.
Someone staying home and raising their kids or practicing self sufficiency can be markedly happier than a family at 70K with mortgages, daycare, commuting, etc.
Having been at both ends of the income spectrum numerous times, I can say that wealth may make some aspects of life easier, but it should not be confused with happiness. That is where some make the wrong choice when they try to justify a degree and student debt.
Some folks belong at a job that requires they shower in the morning while others belong at a job that requires they shower at the end of their day.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

I just happened upon that happiness number a couple days ago...it's now inflated up to $95k. I believe there's something to it, but the way they put it is ludicrous:


> "Globally, we find that satiation occurs at $95,000 for life evaluation and $60,000 to $75,000 for emotional well-being," said the study's authors in the journal. However, the study also found that the ideal income for life satisfaction in North America is $105,000, as reported by Inc.







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finance.yahoo.com





The article is stupid, though. They call it the minimum to be happy, but I believe it's the amount where earning more doesn't make you more happy. That is definitely a real thing, but probably varies from person to person.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

HDRider said:


> Undergraduates
> 
> Applied mathematics - *Median starting salary: *$67,112
> Physics - *Median starting salary: *$67,541
> ...


"According to PayScale data, these are the 10 majors with the highest median starting salaries for alumni with three years of postcollege work experience whose highest degree is a bachelor's, along with the schools where graduates earn the most in those fields."

From the first page of the slideshow. I don't consider "3 years experience required" to be a "starting" salary. It would be 7 to 10 years from the time a person starts college before they could start to earn that salary. Those are median wages, not average wages, and the article didn't state where the "starting" worker could earn those wages.


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

By that time an electrician or plumber could be making the same or more. A union tradesman even more.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Median lifetime earnings of high school diploma: $1.6 million
Median lifetime earnings of associate's degree: $2 million
Median lifetime earnings of bachelor's degree: $2.8 million

Skilled trade is probably about even with an associate degree. Median is the number where half the group is above and half is below, not the same as an average.

Those numbers don't tell the whole story, though. Many within one education level will make more than the median of a higher level. For instance, 16% of HS diplomas will make more than the median bachelor's, meaning they make more than half of bachelor's and less than the other half. Probably from those in the skilled trades who make more than teachers and other lower paid college graduates.

Lots of good data, including a nice illustration of how college major makes a big difference in earnings:


https://1gyhoq479ufd3yna29x7ubjn-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/cew-college_payoff_2021-fr.pdf


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

The video says we have 40,000 openings for auto mechanics. Top mechanics can makes as much as $80 to $90k. Many are not offered much in the way of benefits and 401K


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## link30240 (Aug 22, 2021)

You know, at 15 dollars a hour you make over a million dollars of lifetime earnings. thats with no raises or advancements even without overtime over your career.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Why do we value brain exponentially more than back?

Are brain people just better at getting rewarded? 

Are back people such poor negotiators?


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

link30240 said:


> You know, at 15 dollars a hour you make over a million dollars of lifetime earnings. thats with no raises or advancements even without overtime over your career.


A million bucks ain't what it used to be....


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

ryanthomas said:


> Median lifetime earnings of high school diploma: $1.6 million
> Median lifetime earnings of associate's degree: $2 million
> Median lifetime earnings of bachelor's degree: $2.8 million
> 
> ...


I'd like to see where the job types and educations overlap. What jobs make the most money compared to debt or cost of receiving them and the time to pay it off.

Then a breakdown of the trades and the infrastructure to support it. 100-200,000 isn't far fetched for a good construction salesman.

Not arguing. It is very interesting. I do think things are changing. Around here qe pay 20 bucks an hour if you can hold a shovel, and you don't even have to do it well.

Just show up sort if on time and have a good attitude.

If you are decently skilled, you can practically write your own pay rate.

I realize that construction isn't for everyone, just like I would die of boredom if I was in an office or inputting data all day long. Some folks don't like to get dirty.


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## link30240 (Aug 22, 2021)

ryanthomas said:


> A million bucks ain't what it used to be....


I agree, and neither is a college degree


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I guess a degree might be worth it to those who value money more than happiness. Me? I like being happy and content.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Evons hubby said:


> I guess a degree might be worth it to those who value money more than happiness. Me? I like being happy and content.


No need to choose. Some of us have both.


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I wonder which demographic carries the most debt.


Accurate. Salaries mean less when you have 200k in loans, eagerly gathering interest while you're trying to pay a mortgage or rent and eat.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Why do we value brain exponentially more than back?
> 
> Are brain people just better at getting rewarded?
> 
> Are back people such poor negotiators?


It’s a matter of supply and demand. Give them the need, and almost anyone can develop the back necessary to to the job, starting right about sun-up. On the other hand, many fewer are the people who can figure out how to do the brain job.

I think that landscape is changing, with the government looking to give the lowest common denominator everything they need, but useful labor used to be much easier to find.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

If you measure wealth in dollars, then a college degree is definitely "worth" it. If you measure wealth in usable skills, and actual knowledge then not so much.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

muleskinner2 said:


> If you measure wealth in dollars, then a college degree is definitely "worth" it. If you measure wealth in usable skills, and actual knowledge then not so much.


That all depends on your definition of "usable skills".

A college degree gave me usable skills that set a very good table for me and my family.

Moving back to the farm needed an altogether different set of usable skills. I would never been able to buy the farm if those college skills had not be with me.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

It's not really necessary to choose one or the other. The best of both worlds is a wealth of skills and knowledge, and some wealth in money. Higher education isn't strictly necessary for either one, but _can_ help with both.

I'm probably not the best to make that point, though. My own education was a total loss in dollars. It did provide a lot of useful knowledge, just not knowledge I ended up using to earn a living. It probably did indirectly affect my earning potential, but that's really tough to quantify for an unconventional path.

Money is definitely not the most important thing. In 2008-2009, I made under $10k each year and those were two of the best years of my life. If I was still making that kind of money now, I probably wouldn't be happy with it, though. Money is necessary to some degree.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

HDRider said:


> That all depends on your definition of "usable skills".
> 
> A college degree gave me usable skills that set a very good table for me and my family.
> 
> Moving back to the farm needed an altogether different set of usable skills. I would never been able to buy the farm if those college skills ad not be with


I believe it comes down to which skills pay better, and which field you go into. My wife has a Masters in Nursing, and became a Family Nurse Practitioner yet I made more money as a Deputy Sheriff. While I was working, we paid off all of our debt, and saved enough to pay cash for building materials for the new house. I know a landscaper who makes more money than doctors. 

Some degrees will allow you to enter a field which is very lucrative, and others where you will end up working the check out line at Walmart.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Hazelnutiy said:


> First of all, higher education is necessary for those who love self-development and strive to learn more. I never considered getting a higher education as a prospect for further work, because if you are talented enough, no one will look at whether you have this piece of paper or not. All employers are only interested in is whether you can perform the required work.


I served in the US Navy for 20-years. During that career, I sent out resumes multiple times to see what the job market was like. As a result, I have gone to many interviews. Many times, I have been told they would love to hire me, I had the skills they wanted. But because I did not have a degree, I would only be paid Minimum-Wage. Whereas if I had the degree, they would have gladly added $100k to my salary.
+
I remember Rockwell told me that I would be hired at my career peak-wage. My job was going to be training their new degreed hires, those new hires would all have degrees, I was to train them, and their starting wage was going to be $20k above my pay and after they had completed six months their wages would be increased by another $80k.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

ET1 SS said:


> I remember Rockwell told me that I would be hired at my career peak-wage. My job was going to be training their new degreed hires, those new hires would all have degrees, I was to train them, and their starting wage was going to be $20k above my pay and after they had completed six months their wages would be increased by another $80k.


😡 
I have always believed the trainer should make more than the trainee. It rarely happens in real life though.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Danaus29 said:


> 😡
> I have always believed the trainer should make more than the trainee. It rarely happens in real life though.


Those who can do, those who can't, teach.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Those who can do, those who can't, teach.


That’s said often, but rarely reflective of the reality in a given trade or skill. In the military, training billets are almost exclusively given to soldiers/marines who’ve already performed the role and proven to be particularly adept at it. I’ve found that to be the case in (most, at least) of my professional experience.

Teaching is, no doubt, its own skill set, but I’ve never conducted training in a skill which I hadn’t already developed expertise, and am not aware of having ever received training from someone who hadn’t done the same. 

Not everyone who can do can also successfully train others, but I’ve rarely, if ever, seen training conducted by someone who couldn’t do the thing. When/if that actually happens, it is a major failing of management.


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## tripletmom (Feb 4, 2005)

I worked my entire career in insurance finance/statistics. Got my foot in the door in 1980(fresh out of hs) as a typist. Took advantage of the company's education benefits and worked my way up to middle management with a professional designation. The gal in the cube next to me was the same age with a masters degree. I had a higher title and pay.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> That’s said often, but rarely reflective of the reality in a given trade or skill. In the military, training billets are almost exclusively given to soldiers/marines who’ve already performed the role and proven to be particularly adept at it. I’ve found that to be the case in (most, at least) of my professional experience.
> 
> Teaching is, no doubt, its own skill set, but I’ve never conducted training in a skill which I hadn’t already developed expertise, and am not aware of having ever received training from someone who hadn’t done the same.
> 
> Not everyone who can do can also successfully train others, but I’ve rarely, if ever, seen training conducted by someone who couldn’t do the thing. When/if that actually happens, it is a major failing of management.


A person's skill can be especially sharp in teaching when it is less sharp in the actual completion of the skill.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

tripletmom said:


> I worked my entire career in insurance finance/statistics. Got my foot in the door in 1980(fresh out of hs) as a typist. Took advantage of the company's education benefits and worked my way up to middle management with a professional designation. The gal in the cube next to me was the same age with a masters degree. I had a higher title and pay.


That defines "meritocracy".

I too made much more with my associates degree than other with an under graduate and graduate degree. Doing the job well is the number one attribute of success. As it should be. 

That said, entering the work force with a degree, and especially a degree from a prestigious university gives one a leg up over one with lesser education. That leg up only goes so far, where performance can carry one further. True stellar success is a combination of higher education and great job performance.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> A person's skill can be especially sharp in teaching when it is less sharp in the actual completion of the skill.


For sure, teaching is its own skill-set, as I mentioned. I was just pointing out that the “those who can’t do, teach” cliche is just that; a cliche. Very seldom, in my experience, is someone in a position to teach something they either aren’t or never were capable of doing well.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Not everyone who can do can also successfully train others, but I’ve rarely, if ever, seen training conducted by someone who couldn’t do the thing. When/if that actually happens, it is a major failing of management.


As a young semi pro baseball player, I interacted with many coaches, scouts, managers and roaming instructors whose on field experience varied greatly. Some I knew never actually played the sport past highschool, but rather rose thru the ranks via office/assistant/low level flunky. I learned the intricacies and nuances of each position from guys that couldn't throw a ball across the diamond on one bounce. Yes, there were those with major league experience.
Athletics were an exception to the rule, and I would not use that example for someone in nuclear energy, military, law enforcement, communicable disease/vaccine fields, etc.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> For sure, teaching is its own skill-set, as I mentioned. I was just pointing out that the “those who can’t do, teach” cliche is just that; a cliche. Very seldom, in my experience, is someone in a position to teach something they either aren’t or never were capable of doing well.


I thought about this more.

First, every cliché has a root in reality, but has many exceptions to it too. No generalization is always true. (Is that a generalization itself?)

Consider engineers, scientist, mathematicians, and such vocations. They might me brilliant in their practice, but are notoriously bad at explaining and teaching others.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> As a young semi pro baseball player, I interacted with many coaches, scouts, managers and roaming instructors whose on field experience varied greatly. Some I knew never actually played the sport past highschool, but rather rose thru the ranks via office/assistant/low level flunky. I learned the intricacies and nuances of each position from guys that couldn't throw a ball across the diamond on one bounce. Yes, there were those with major league experience.
> Athletics were an exception to the rule, and I would not use that example for someone in nuclear energy, military, law enforcement, communicable disease/vaccine fields, etc.


Consider how few pro baseball players become coaches, much less their coaching matching their playing skill..


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

That is a pretty wide generalization, although if you listen to the recent Joe Rogan podcast with Marc Andreesson, who is the co creator of the first widely and publicly used internet browser, the guy speaks so quickly and peppers almost every sentence with the words "basically" and "so", to the extent that he is almost unlistenable.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> That is a pretty wide generalization


What is?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

"Consider engineers, scientist, mathematicians, and such vocations. They might me brilliant in their practice, but are notoriously bad at explaining and teaching others."

But you already admitted it was a wide generalization.
I have yet to find a certified public accountant that laughs out loud spontaneously.
I just thought about that and take that back. I went to church with a CPA that said he laughed the hardest and longest during his appointments with his psychiatrist.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> "Consider engineers, scientist, mathematicians, and such vocations. They might me brilliant in their practice, but are notoriously bad at explaining and teaching others."
> 
> But you already admitted it was a wide generalization.
> I have yet to find a certified public accountant that laughs out loud spontaneously.
> I just thought about that and take that back. I went to church with a CPA that said he laughed the hardest and longest during his appointments with his psychiatrist.


My world is based entirely upon my experiences

I always round up or down. I never tell anyone the exact time down to the minute. I always drive about 4 miles faster than the speed limit. I have always only had a few beers. I almost always generalize everything


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

HDRider said:


> Those who can do, those who can't, teach.


Shall I assume an illiterate person taught you how to read? Did the person who taught you how to drive have a driver's license? Did a person who never touched a gun, teach you gun safety?

Some skills are best learned from someone who has mastered the skill. If the person teaching has not mastered the skill, the education is worthless. Which begs the question, what value is there in the college degree if the instructors don't know what they are teaching?

I think the saying you posted and I quoted is among the stupidest of phrases.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Danaus29 said:


> Shall I assume an illiterate person taught you how to read? Did the person who taught you how to drive have a driver's license? Did a person who never touched a gun, teach you gun safety?
> 
> Some skills are best learned from someone who has mastered the skill. If the person teaching has not mastered the skill, the education is worthless. Which begs the question, what value is there in the college degree if the instructors don't know what they are teaching?
> 
> I think the saying you posted and I quoted is among the stupidest of phrases.


I do believe you are overacting 

The best drivers don't make the best teachers, and the best teachers are not necessarily the best drivers

I would assume to teach someone to read you would have to know how to read

You need to know about a gun to teach gun safety. I think some of the best shots are not the best to learn gun safety from.

Teaching is a skill, but the teacher of that skill might not always be the most skilled at the subject.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Danaus29 said:


> Which begs the question, what value is there in the college degree if the instructors don't know what they are teaching?


sadly not much. Especially when people have to go heavily in debt!


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> As a young semi pro baseball player, I interacted with many coaches, scouts, managers and roaming instructors whose on field experience varied greatly. Some I knew never actually played the sport past highschool, but rather rose thru the ranks via office/assistant/low level flunky. I learned the intricacies and nuances of each position from guys that couldn't throw a ball across the diamond on one bounce. Yes, there were those with major league experience.
> Athletics were an exception to the rule, and I would not use that example for someone in nuclear energy, military, law enforcement, communicable disease/vaccine fields, etc.


That is probably one of the few valid examples that actually makes sense. There are, no doubt, brilliant sports strategists and tacticians who don’t have the physical prowess to be good players. In that case, though, I would argue that they’re expertise is in a different field. They are experts in what play to make, not necessarily in making the play.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> That is probably one of the few valid examples that actually makes sense. There are, no doubt, brilliant sports strategists and tacticians who don’t have the physical prowess to be good players. In that case, though, I would argue that they’re expertise is in a different field. They are experts in what play to make, not necessarily in making the play.


Consider too that some players are made coaches to inspire and to act as a totem for players.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> I thought about this more.
> 
> First, every cliché has a root in reality, but has many exceptions to it too. No generalization is always true. (Is that a generalization itself?)
> 
> Consider engineers, scientist, mathematicians, and such vocations. They might me brilliant in their practice, but are notoriously bad at explaining and teaching others.


Sure, there are examples of everything, but it should be noted that the example you provided, in the last paragraph, was of someone having the skill to practice but not to teach. I absolutely believe that is very common. Like I said, teaching is its own skill set. I happen to believe, however, that a person who is capable of teaching something, but not possessing the skill to do what they teach, is very uncommon.

Cases like GTX provided, where the skill is an extremely physical one, make sense, as do the cases where the teacher has long since passed their prime at the actual ‘doing’, but possess a mountain of experience in the thing. But, to say that those who teach only teach because they can’t do, is just abusing the opportunity to say something that has been said often, because it sounds clever, without really saying anything of substance.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Consider too that some players are made coaches to inspire and to act as a totem for players.


For sure. In that case, you’re not really talking about a teacher that can’t do. You’re talking about a necessary team mate that possesses skills other than those needed on the field.

That’s more akin to an architect not being the most skilled roofer, but saying that the only reason he’s an architect is because he’s can’t build. The best generals probably can’t pitch grenades or kick down doors with the best of their non-comms, but that’s not saying that the reason they’re generals is because they can’t lob explosives.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> capable of teaching something, but not possessing the skill to do what they teach, is very uncommon.


I agree 100%. I never intended to imply otherwise 

When I was in college two of my primary computer science professors left practice to teach for personal reasons.

One was an arrogant social retard and could not get along with people. The other detested politics and wanted out of the politics of corporate life. They were both competent practitioners. One was a very good teacher. The other was a jerk


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> That’s more akin to an architect not being the most skilled roofer, but saying that the only reason he’s an architect is because he’s can’t build. The best generals probably can’t pitch grenades or kick down doors with the best of their non-comms, but that’s not saying that the reason they’re generals is because they can’t lob explosives.


It seems you went pretty far there


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

HDRider said:


> Teaching is a skill, but the teacher of that skill might not always be the most skilled at the subject.


And the most skilled might not be the best teachers. 

The point is that the teacher has to know something about what they are teaching.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> It seems you went pretty far there


What?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> That’s more akin to an architect not being the most skilled roofer, but saying that the only reason he’s an architect is because he’s can’t build. The best generals probably can’t pitch grenades or kick down doors with the best of their non-comms, but that’s not saying that the reason they’re generals is because they can’t lob explosives.





GunMonkeyIntl said:


> What?


Those examples seemed to be a bridge too far


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Danaus29 said:


> the teacher has to know something about what they are teaching.


I completely agree


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