# horse meat.



## greenboy (Sep 5, 2005)

Three years ago I ate horse meat in France, I wonder why we don't have a market for this in the states...


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## Immaculate Sublimity (Apr 30, 2003)

My guess is many people view horses as a form of companion animal, something you spend more time working with, training, and working on, than your average meat animal. I'm not sure if there are any legalities to eating your horses. Guess that would be something to investigate.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

About five years ago PETA and the HSUS ran a campaign to have horses deemed companion animals rather than livestock. All the slaughterhouses in TX and IL closed, so now there is no horsemeat.
We ate it at grandma's house as kids. It is very red, kind of like bear, but not as greasy of course.


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## Quiet Guy (Oct 29, 2006)

nothing stopping you from processing one for yourself, just don't try to sell any


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

And even when the processing plants were open they were still not able to sell horse meat in the USA all of it went out of the country.
There is a movement trying to get a few back open again, as we have such a problem now because of those people that wanted to stop horses going through such suffering, but all it did was make more horses suffer even more ill fated deaths.


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

same reasons dog isn't a popular meat in NA I think ...


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

The Japanes still buy alot of horses, they put them on ships in California, head across the ocean and its hangin meat by the time they get to port over there. And all the guts and stuff feed the fishes on the way, yum yum. They like good horses also they don`t buy crap horses, such a shaame. Alot of good horses have ended up with this fate, maybe it`s better than being stuck in a life of hardship and mistreatment. > Marc


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

I think there just simply isn't a market(or a large enough one) for it. In the US they are looked upon as pets.

Even when we did have slaughter houses, all or a vast majority of it was exported. 

Instead of trying to push for more ethical treatment, they just had the slaughter houses banned. I used to have mixed feelings about the slaughter, but since they've shut down I have seen so many starving, neglected and abused horses. People have been known just to turn the horses loose, because they won't even bring bottom dollar at the auction house. I have been offered so many 'free' horses in the last few years. Many are still being sold for meat, but they are being shipped longer distances to the slaughter houses. Don't know how that's any better. While I don't think I could raise one to slaughter myself, I have come to the conclusion that in the event one fatally injures itself(broken leg, etc) it will be put to use(especially for the dogs on a raw diet) instead of putting the whole thing in the ground. The last horse we had colicked, so the vet pumped him full of meds trying to save him and we lost him anyway. So we lost a friend and had to dig a hellofa hole to bury him, it seemed like such a waste on top of a loss.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

But remember, horses are often given meds that aren't intended for animals for slaughter.


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## Countrygrl3 (Nov 19, 2004)

There is a guy pretty close to here that sells it under the table like. Most ppl around here would flip out if there actually was a market for it. But thats just my area. 

Sue


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

When I was growing up - here in the U.S. - my mom bought horse meat at the grocery store. I'm 71, so that was some time ago. Think the sale of it was stopped after WWII.

There are some in the U.S. who raise horses for their freezer and do their own butchering. After all, meat is meat. You won't hear much about it though.

If folks can no longer afford to keep their horses, turning them loose to die of starvation and dehydration is a cruel thing to do. They'd be better off if those folks fed their family.


=== But remember, horses are often given meds that aren't intended for animals for slaughter. ===


Meds are pumped into any meat you purchase at the grocery stores. Confinement raised critters are not healthy critters and need meds.

Those of us who feed DE don't pump meds. If they can't get sickness/diseases, no meds are needed. Haven't vaccinated or seen a vet for over 30 years. The same for the house pets - although we don't eat dogs in our culture.

I'm a big meat eater. If I was served horse, I'd eat it. I've eaten plenty of exotic meat. The meat I raise is swine and that brings some flack too. In every country, the Potbelly pig is a meal on the hoof. In the U.S., they're not considered livestock, but pets. I raise Potbellies for meat. Most meat breeders of PBPs keep quiet to avoid the flack. Not me - nor the meat breeder I got my breeding stock from. Raised like pigs instead of pets, the meat is delicious. Plus you can have PBPs in areas where you can't have hogs.


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

only reason Horse, Rabbit, Goat, PotBelly Pig and even GuineaPig are not found on the Common American Menue is because we have WAY TO MANY TREE HUGGERS and city goofballs that dont know any better than meat comes from plastic packages in the store and animals are cute fuzzy little things to be kept and petted and tide up with ribbons and bows lol,


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

I've seen rabbit and goat in the grocery stores. Just depends what part of the country you're in. The best meat comes out of your backyard!


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## greenboy (Sep 5, 2005)

Before when I was a boy if you didn't want a horse and you have to take care of it right away you may sell it for meat. Now that's impossible, so is very common to see horses abandoned in the middle of the field. Two years ago I called the SPCA to report an abandoned horse and they never showed. I think one of my neighbors got the horse and sold it... if you ask me. What a shame...


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

For most of the last 500 years or so wars have raged back and forth across Europe. Of course war always left dead horses and hungry survivors behind. Only natural that they developed a taste for horsemeat.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Rogo said:


> I've seen rabbit and goat in the grocery stores. Just depends what part of the country you're in. The best meat comes out of your backyard!


Here too. We have rabbit, goat, yak, bison and elk available in our meat section of the local grocery store.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Wouldn't it be like against some animal cruelty laws to go out and shoot your horse and butcher it up? I know here, although it is done, it's still considered animal cruelty to put down your own dog, even though it's probably quicker. 

I'm not against using horse meat if they're put down humanely. In emergency situations or even not emergency, but I sure wouldn't blurt it to the world what you were processing. LOL Would be excellent for dogs on raw diets. I would just worry about the legal aspects of it.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I can't imagine it being illegal to shoot any animal to put it down. When we need to put a horse down, if it's not an emergency, we take them to a local lion zoo where they are shot humanely and fed to the cats. Seems a lot better than putting them in a hole in the ground.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

In the 70s, a friend knew two old hermits who lived way back in the woods. They got to town every year for supplies, and bought an old horse. It packed their supplies in, then they butchered it for meat. Dual purpose breed, I guess.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

The 'tree huggers' have been bringing this country down for some time.

This country could be self sufficient in every way from energy, food, manufacturing, etc.

Until folks with cojones say 'no more' this country will continue to plummet.


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## kareninaustria (Dec 22, 2008)

We enjoy horse meat regularly in our household here in Austria. In Vienna there are horsemeat butchers, where everything in the inventory is made of horse. There used to be horse butcher shops in every neighborhood; now there's not so many but they still have their loyal following. The meat is intensely red, very lean, and requires a lot of stewing to be tender if it's a mature animal. Young horse is paler and much more tender - occasionally tender enough for steaks. It is full-flavored and very slightly sweet, but you could mistake it for beef if you didn't know you were eating horse. Horse sausage, pastrami, and "prosciutto" are really good too. Much of my adult life has been spent immersed in horses, but for some reason I don't mind eating them. They have always seemed more like a "useful" animal than a pet to me. This is just one more way they can be useful.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

I think that if we ate dog and horse here in America, people would have to think of them as dual-purpose animals. Most prefer to think of dogs and horses as animals with brains, who can serve us, and act as companions. It seems like a horrifying shame to eat them. But I think it would be a lot more humane to eat the unwanted dogs and horses than to just kill and dump them all, or let them starve to death or live out their days in cages. Maybe if we resorted to eating dogs and horses in this country, the outrage would have more of an effect on the breeding practices of kennels and stables, and the public would get more strict about what they expected out of reputable breeders?

Food for thought... (Uh... literally?)


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

I think another issue with eating horse meat here in the US too is that we view the horse as a symbol of freedom, and country. The wild mustang is a part of our heritage. Strange though isn't it that we have no problem eating deer, which are also natural here... It's like eating a pheasant vs. eating a bald eagle, I suppose.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Horses aren't natural here.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

After seeing plenty of bald eagles dining on road kill, I wouldn't be very inclined to eat them. 
Like horses, pheasants aren't indigenous to North America either...they were introduced from Asia.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> After seeing plenty of bald eagles dining on road kill, I wouldn't be very inclined to eat them.
> Like horses, pheasants aren't indigenous to North America either...they were introduced from Asia.


Bald Eagles taste sorta like spotted owls.......


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## gracie88 (May 29, 2007)

> same reasons dog isn't a popular meat in NA I think ...


I'm told that, in some of the native cultures, puppy is a delicacy.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

So now supposedly because of the slaughter ban, we have all these starving and neglected horses in the country. If a horse owner wouldn't think twice about sending a horse to slaughter, why is it they would rather abandon or starve a horse than butcher and eat it themselves? Is it because they were able to send them "out of sight, out of mind" on the slaughter truck, and because they would not want to "do the dirty work" themselves? 

(sort of a rhetorical question)


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## Jcran (Jan 4, 2006)

Well, out here in timber land, I'd say I was a tree hugger after the big corporation from Texas came in and bought out our largest logging company, Pacific Lumber Company, which sustainably cut and took care of its employees for generations. This corporation then raided pensions then clear cut to pay off the junk bonds they'd lost money on. Palco was ruined, our local economy was ruined, and they blamed it on the "tree huggers". My husband's family came from a long line of loggers...no more. I also would say I'm an environmentalist because I look at what is happening to California's wild places and ag land...all going to housing tracts, ruining our ag-based economy and driving up water needs when we don't have the long-term infrastructure to provide THAT water...and look at Wyoming where so many family ranches are being screwed because big corporations are buying up the mineral rights then going in for natural gas wells and ruining water tables and grazing lands. West Virginia? Big corporations ruining entire watershed with mountain top mining, pushing poison and waste into valleys. If I'm going to blame "tree huggers" then its the far right AND far left who both have blinders on. I think we NEED responsible, humane kill facilities for horses because, like so many folks are noticing, there's a lot of neglect going on with the economy, etc. I sure wouldn't eat horse right now, because so many of the wormers and meds we give em don't have withdrawal times and if you look at the stuff going down their throats it says something to the effect of "don't give to animals going for meat". My brother and his friends shot and butchered a horse the friend had that kept "escaping" and getting itself into trouble (I guess the friend didn't think to improve fencing?) Anyhow, my brother loved the meat. Ok, stepping off my soapbox


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

malinda said:


> So now supposedly because of the slaughter ban, we have all these starving and neglected horses in the country. If a horse owner wouldn't think twice about sending a horse to slaughter, why is it they would rather abandon or starve a horse than butcher and eat it themselves? Is it because they were able to send them "out of sight, out of mind" on the slaughter truck, and because they would not want to "do the dirty work" themselves?
> 
> (sort of a rhetorical question)


People do the same thing with dogs and cats. Drop them off at the pound doors and drive away. They just tell themselves that the animal will be adopted out and put it out of their mind. When logic would tell them the animal will more often then not be euthanized. They just don't want to euthanize(or take them to be) the animal themselves. They drop the animals off in the countryside thinking "oh someone will find them and give them a good home" or my favorite "they are descendants of wolves, they'll live in the wild". 

It's a strange world we live in.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Apparently there is a black market for horse meat. Would reopening slaughter houses solve this? No. Because when the houses were open, people would just steal the whole horse. 

In some places in Florida, there is a rash of horse butchering. This is the stuff that would drive me crazy. People going out to feed their pet horses and someone had come in the night and butchered them and left the remains for the owner to find in the stall or pasture. 

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2009/09/073.shtml


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Well animal mutilations have going on for some time. Stopping or starting up the processing plants again for horses will not stop these such things happening, and is a very weak argument for not getting the processing plants back open in the USA.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

arabian knight said:


> and is a very weak argument for not getting the processing plants back open in the USA.


I didn't post the link as an argument for or against the plants(if it seemed that way), theft of parts or whole horses occur either way. 

I just thought it was strange that horse meat was sold on "the black market". With horses being sold for little or nothing, you think this man could have made a business out of buying the horses and butchering them at home low key and selling the meat that way vs walking into a barn full of horses and harvesting only the back legs of a horse in it's own stall. Or even stealing the whole animal.

As you said though, animal mutilation will happen regardless. Hell there are people out there who would do such things for 'fun', but to think they assumed that this fella was doing it to sell the meat on the 'black market'.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== So now supposedly because of the slaughter ban, we have all these starving and neglected horses in the country. === 


At this time, the lousy economy has a lot to do with it. Folks are walking away from foreclosures AND their pets.

When I was raising mules, I was on a lot of land and the critters had mountains to climb. I came home one day to find a mule tied to my gate. Guess they figured if I could afford all I had, I could take in theirs. I couldn't find an owner, so I sold it.


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## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

I have thought about meat, and even looked at my own pets and figured in my head which would go first. It would be very hard to butcher my dog, not quite as hard for the rabbits, and my cat has so little meat, I don't know if I would get to him (verses the rabbits who could reproduce and provide me with meat every month). I would gladly eat horse, but if it were a personal one, I think it would be hard to get out there and do it. 

Can't say I haven't thought about all those free horses on Craigslist, though. That is some seriously cheap meat.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Rogo said:


> At this time, the lousy economy has a lot to do with it. Folks are walking away from foreclosures AND their pets.


Exactly. The starved and neglected horses are not solely caused by the US slaughterhouses being closed.


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## smalltime (Jan 26, 2007)

malinda said:


> Exactly. The starved and neglected horses are not solely caused by the US slaughterhouses being closed.


Naw, but I think the solution could be just that simple... There are a lot of cubans here in florida and they love horse meat, I was told not to eat to much because it thins your blood? IDK but I have several cuban friends and they all seem to be on the same page about it?


Bill


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## george darby (May 10, 2002)

i have always wanted to try quality horse meat .i think much of its stigma comes from the fact that most horses had too much value in the past for draft /riding than for meat untill they were old and sick ,in europe young horses are raised for meat just like cattle so the quality is there my father used to tell about his grandfather feeding surplus horse meat to the dogs that had been caned in 5 gallon cans for the troops in ww1. i can remember stories told about a local family that butchered a horse in the 60s some of thier relatives still alude to it as a dirty family secret .from what i have seen when i cutt up and salvaged our companion horse who had passed away after a very long life for dog food it apeared to be a very nice meat dark red with a nice grain cut like it was much more tender than an old cow would have been,believe it or not cut up into dog friendly packs a very large horse will fit in a deep freeze no huge excavated hole no smell and fat happy pupps


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

From the Twin Falls auction, looks like they are after meat. 

HORSE MARKET : 
HORSES OVER 1100LBS. $10.00 TO $15.00 P/LB:UNDER 1100LBS. $1.00 TO $7.00 P/LB. SOME FOALS & POOR FLESHED HORSES NO-VALUE!!!!!!!


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

wow. please someone tell me i am not the only "tree hugger" here in this forum ~ lol.

i knew i was in the minority, but still... wow.


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## julieq (Oct 12, 2008)

I guess it just depends on the meat you've been used to eating all your life. We've butchered deer, beef cattle, hogs and poultry. But we can't bring ourselves to butcher one of our own dairy goat wethers. One of our horses? Absolutely not.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

harvestgirl said:


> wow. please someone tell me i am not the only "tree hugger" here in this forum ~ lol.
> 
> i knew i was in the minority, but still... wow.


Try this. Explain to a cow why it is alright to eat beef, but not horse meat.


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## Rose (Dec 30, 2010)

harvestgirl said:


> wow. please someone tell me i am not the only "tree hugger" here in this forum ~ lol.
> 
> i knew i was in the minority, but still... wow.


Noo!! There is no reason to put a label to it like some people are doing on this forum. Just because you respect an animal enough to not eat it should not mean you should be labeled as such. Every culture is different and much of the North America has taken on a culture where eating horse is taboo. It's just like if you go to India, eating cow is taboo! I think its crazy some people on here are talking about eating their cats or dogs and think it is normal.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

harvestgirl said:


> wow. please someone tell me i am not the only "tree hugger" here in this forum ~ lol.
> 
> i knew i was in the minority, but still... wow.


I know I would be considered a tree hugger by some but I see no problem with humanely euthanizing and eating a horse or really any other animal. Why would we euthanize an animal and bury it when it can serve a nobler purpose? Either way it's going to be consumed by something.
I might be a little squeamish about it but if I were hungry and needed to feed my children...you bet I'd eat them.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Ed Norman said:


> From the Twin Falls auction, looks like they are after meat.
> 
> HORSE MARKET :
> HORSES OVER 1100LBS. $10.00 TO $15.00 P/LB:UNDER 1100LBS. $1.00 TO $7.00 P/LB. SOME FOALS & POOR FLESHED HORSES NO-VALUE!!!!!!!


 Well sure they are after meat, that market never has stopped. Just that the horses have to either travel into Mexico, and or Canada.
And that makes it even harder on the horses. people wanted to stop the horses from suffering at the processing plants, so they stopped. Now that only makes the horses travel even further and endure even more suffering then before. That is just those that are "lucky" enough to go by truck, those that don't wind up being turned loose to fend for themselves, or even worse just starving to death at the uncaring places that still have horses. And this has been going on long before the economy turned sour. It has been happening ever since the processing plants closed.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Rose, there are so many "American" cultures that you can not expect people adhere to one set of mores. 

Your horse may be your pet, but to assign your values to me and my horses is wrong.


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## Rose (Dec 30, 2010)

tinknal said:


> Rose, there are so many "American" cultures that you can not expect people adhere to one set of mores.
> 
> Your horse may be your pet, but to assign your values to me and my horses is wrong.


To assign a label like 'treehugger' to people who oppose the eating of horse meat is wrong. But for some reason one is okay and the other is wrong?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Rose said:


> To assign a label like 'treehugger' to people who oppose the eating of horse meat is wrong. But for some reason one is okay and the other is wrong?


Wait...which one is supposed to be bad? Eating horse meat or being a tree hugger?


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

I think it was me who originally used the term 'tree hugger.' It's easier to spell than environmentalist. Whatever, those are the folks who are helping to bring down the country.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Rose said:


> To assign a label like 'treehugger' to people who oppose the eating of horse meat is wrong. But for some reason one is okay and the other is wrong?


I think any time that someone tries to force their beliefs on others that it is wrong.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I've eaten a pretty broad selection of meats, buffalo before it was trendy, yak, bear, moose, deer, beaver, cougar, ostrich, elk, sheep and goat (not the domestic kind) and some mystery meats in places that left me thinking it might not be a good idea to ask questions. I really can't see why it would be a big deal to eat horse. 

Horse is legally sold and served in Canada and the way I see it, it's just another option available and if someone doesn't want to buy it or eat it, that's as much their right as it is my right not to buy farmed salmon, white bread or doritos.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> Well sure they are after meat, that market never has stopped. Just that the horses have to either travel into Mexico, and or Canada.
> And that makes it even harder on the horses. people wanted to stop the horses from suffering at the processing plants, so they stopped. Now that only makes the horses travel even further and endure even more suffering then before. That is just those that are "lucky" enough to go by truck, those that don't wind up being turned loose to fend for themselves, or even worse just starving to death at the uncaring places that still have horses. And this has been going on long before the economy turned sour. It has been happening ever since the processing plants closed.


This is one of the most legible and comprehensible posts you've ever made on here! Good job.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

wr said:


> if someone doesn't want to buy it or eat it, that's as much their right as it is my right not to buy farmed salmon, white bread or doritos.


What on earth have you got against DORITOS?????? How can anyone not like them? The food of the gods, I tell ya..... I'm forming a protest group against dorito defamation right now! :runforhills:


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## MTplainsman (Oct 12, 2007)

Quiet Guy said:


> nothing stopping you from processing one for yourself, just don't try to sell any



Well, I'm not sure it is even legal to slaughter your own anymore??? I heard you couldn't, but I never did find out for sure.

We had some wild range horses from the Terry badlands that we got just for the hauling, years ago. It was a major job for us with what we had at hand, but I'll tell ya, in the end that dark red meat was awful tasty and kinda rich. For being so muscled, horse meat can turn out to be extremely tender, and make superb steaks IMO. I wouldn't mind putting some horse in the freezer again, and put some of these poor unclaimed horses to some good use! Hope I didn't offend anyone with this, not my intention.

I think animal activist groups put the pressure on to the point of changing horse slaughtering in the US. Sad to say, but the government seems to be run by driving "power" groups instead of by the masses (you and me).


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

2horses said:


> What on earth have you got against DORITOS?????? How can anyone not like them? The food of the gods, I tell ya..... I'm forming a protest group against dorito defamation right now! :runforhills:


Nothing wrong with Doritos but Cheetos should be banned. I think they have crack in that orange coating. Have you ever eaten one Cheeto? I don;t think it's possible.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

Great. Now I'm hungry....


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Pam, doritos, carmel corn, rumballs, high end chocolate, low end chocolate, anything dipped in sugar, made with sugar rolled in sugar and those stinking powdered cheese covered fat pretzel chunks are required eating in my opinion. Unfortunately, Christmas in oil & gas involves 30 days of as many $5/bite chocolates as a human can eat and if I don't skip the dorito aisle for a while, I'm going to have to talk to the old rancher about a loan for a supersized saddle :rotfl:


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

I know, I've been trying to cut back on snack consumption as well. The holidays don't make it easy, but soon everything will be back to a normal routine and chips (including crack-laced Cheetos) will be banned from the house once again.

Horse meat is lean (returning to topic)!!


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## donewithcity (Sep 9, 2010)

In tomorrows Seattle times is an article talking about the glut of wild horses on the reservations and that they want to start slaughtering again. Only problem is, it is not illegal, but congress has cut off any funding for inspection, making horse meat in the US a moot point. The article here:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2013798888_horses30m.html


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

donewithcity said:


> In tomorrows Seattle times is an article talking about the glut of wild horses on the reservations and that they want to start slaughtering again. Only problem is, it is not illegal, but congress has cut off any funding for inspection, making horse meat in the US a moot point. The article here:
> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2013798888_horses30m.html


Interesting article. Something needs to happen. A good start would be if people would stop breeding just because they happen to have a horse with a uterus or testicles.


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## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

I think the tribes should be able to do it. Its slightly crazy when you have animals no one is caring for, and they are eating all the food for the animals native to here.

If that hs guy doesnt want them eated, maybe he'll take a few thousand.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I know that the Colville band has seen so many dumped horses that they're welcoming anybody who will come pick up. The old rancher's cousin picked up 3 a while ago and while he was picking up 3, some jerk dropped off 5.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I've eaten rattlesnake to bear and every game animal in between, however I won't eat horse. That could make me a vegetarian! Some tribal people eat their enemies--that doesn't make it a good thing.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

How many minis does it take to make a meal?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

2horses said:


> How many minis does it take to make a meal?


It's been my experience that it takes roughly 2 dozen timbits to make a meal so if somebody can translate............


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== It's been my experience that it takes roughly 2 dozen timbits to make a meal so if somebody can translate............ ===


Timbits is the brand name of bite-sized doughnut balls sold at Tim Hortons franchise restaurants. The treats were introduced in April 1976 and are now available in various flavors.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Rogo, you're awesome. I'm impressed you took the time to research and if I didn't think they'd show up in Arizona stale, I'd send you a box.


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## Jcran (Jan 4, 2006)

Rogo said:


> I think it was me who originally used the term 'tree hugger.' It's easier to spell than environmentalist. Whatever, those are the folks who are helping to bring down the country.


I disagree; its the corporate control of our government...believe me, I know EVERYTHING...if I were in charge of this country, I'd have things set to rights in no time... but I digress.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Interesting article. Something needs to happen. A good start would be if people would stop breeding just because they happen to have a horse with a uterus or testicles.


And this is EXACTLY the reason there are a glut of "slaughter" horses. I think the economy has a somewhat smaller part of it (people just don't have the disposable income that they used to), and the closure of US slaughterhouses would be near the bottom of the list of reasons, because there are obviously still horses being bought/sold for meat and being transported across the border.

The people who breed "slaughter" horses usually don't intend to (breed for slaughter) and I'm sure many of them wouldn't sell a horse to someone who specifically stated they intended to eat that horse, but in turn they will sell them for $50 at an auction and delude themselves into thinking the horse went to a loving family with a young horse crazy daughter.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

2horses said:


> How many minis does it take to make a meal?


I just snorted hot coffee all over my desk. It was worth it. :hysterical:


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

malinda, Canada has a strong meat export market and several provinces have a fairly strong demand for horse meat so we do actually have people breeding horses specifically for meat as well as finishing feedlots.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

wr said:


> malinda, Canada has a strong meat export market and several provinces have a fairly strong demand for horse meat so we do actually have people breeding horses specifically for meat as well as finishing feedlots.


 Don't they have quite a few PMU farms still around?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

arabian knight, PMU's went the way of the dodo bird with the advent of synthetic estrogen. The huge selloff of mares had a negative impact on our slaughter prices for a good couple years.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

I meant people who breed for a _cuuute_ foal, and then spoil him so badly that by the time he is 2 and his hormones are kicking in, he's downright dangerous. They may or may not send him to a trainer by the time he is 7 or so (after they stand him at stud, of course), and the trainer may or may not be a good one who will actually teach the horse manners, etc, etc...

Those people are breeding "slaughter" horses, though unintentionally.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

malinda said:


> I meant people who breed for a _cuuute_ foal, and then spoil him so badly that by the time he is 2 and his hormones are kicking in, he's downright dangerous. They may or may not send him to a trainer by the time he is 7 or so (after they stand him at stud, of course), and the trainer may or may not be a good one who will actually teach the horse manners, etc, etc...
> 
> Those people are breeding "slaughter" horses, though unintentionally.


Yep, but without the slaughter buyers they will be breeding "starving" horses instead.


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

It's funny that I found this here. My husband and I were discussing getting a bottle calf this fall to raise for beef. As we were talking about this we were watching the horses in the pasture. I stopped breeding horses years ago and had one last filly (now a mare) that did not sell. I casually mentioned that horsemeat was just as good as beef and we already had the means to raise a foal, as we still have our old stallion although long ago retired. And then that led to the discussion of all those free and super cheap horses that are listed almost daily on craigslist. I ate horsemeat in Europe and simply don't understand the stigma. Now, I couldn't eat the three that I have now. However, I could eat the offspring of my mare if I were breeding her for that explicit purpose. It is just like with my goats, when boys are born they are destined for the freezer. That is just the way it is and so I grow no attachment like I would a doeling that I intended to keep. Anyway, just a thought. Blessings, Kat


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Being a porkaholic, I've raised pigs for a while -- the large farm hogs. Only one didn't go into the freezer; he hitched to a cart and took me for rides.

Since I didn't know where I'd be living, I went to raising meat Potbelly pigs. Only in the U.S. are they pets, not livestock. Every other country they're a meal on the hoof.

I got my starting breeders from another meat PBP raiser. 

I can't resist having fun with the non-livestock folks. When they ask me, "You're not going to eat those cute little things, are you?" I tell them no, I'm going to eat their children!

The PBP is about 120 pounds. Butchered, you get 50 to 60 pounds of meat. With only me to feed instead of a family, and the dog gets the bones after my meal, it works out good for me.

Fed like a pet, sitting on the couch with you and sharing your snacks, they're lard pigs.

Running free outside and fed like a pig should be, they're a bacon pig. Quite lean. Need to add fat when making HAMburgers. I cook with lard and butter.

Like the large farm hogs, the little pigs come up to me for belly rubs. (Do this 3 times/day to tenderize your meat!!) They're handled daily to keep them tame and easier to work with.

Doesn't seem much different than raising non-companion horse meat would be.

The U.S. is half-way down the toilet just waiting for someone to flush it. If things don't change, I wouldn't be surprised if folks started eating equine legally.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Ed Norman said:


> Horses aren't natural here.


they are a reintroduced species, that most scientific circles except as developing here in north America then going extinct.

I would assume they where a higher up on the menu of various predators including man.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I've eaten horsemeat when we were living in Spain and travelled. I also ate rabbit and snails for the first time when I lived there. I don't know that if I were in an Asian country I would eat dog or cat if I knew what it was, or 'hamsters' in South American (for some reason rodents make me go "ick") ... though I've often wondered just how hungry the first caveman was that ate a lobster was.

Having grown up on a ranch where we raised some of the meat we ate, I've never had a problem separating out "food animals" from "breeding/companion" animals even when both were the same species. I suspect if I were from a culture that accepted horses as a meat animal as much as cattle or hogs, I'd be the same way about them.

I do think that the closing of the American slaughter plants have done a great deal of harm to the horses the proponents of the legislation claimed it was to protect. Horses are being hauled longer distances with more chance of ill treatment during the hauling over longer distances. I have always believed that the regulations that were in place would have been adequate if the government had funded adequate enforcement personnel ... with more supervision, more enforcement the plants could have continued to operate and the abuses could have been curtailed.

Now horses that are no longer wanted or useful are pretty much condemned to be turned out to starve or be trucked much longer distances, with less supervision even than before.

I also find it somewhat ironic that all of the people who so actively condemn "indiscriminate breeding" are also often the same people that are involved with the various "save the wild horses" groups. Yet the wild horses are breeding and reproducing with no control and you never hear anyone come forward to say "stop indiscriminate breeding in the mustang populations" ... just "get rid of the ranchers and the cattle so the mustangs can survive".

So what happens when the mustang population over-runs the national park systems and spills out onto private land?


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Well, I've known a number of Asian foreign-exchange students who can't understand why American's are so dumb...

We have an "animal overpopulation problem" with dogs and cats in shelters being euthanized and horses being given away for free.

We have hungry people on food stamps/welfare because they can't afford food.

So why are we wasting perfectly good meat (the shelter dogs/cats, abandoned horses) when we have hungry people???

They just shake their heads....silly Americans....

The solution is right here under our noses, we just don't view dogs and cats and horses as viable sources of food. Darn shame.......


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

A good portion of us at least dabble in other livestock outside of horses.

Therefore, we all know how a livestock market "basically" functions. you have the base "per pound" price that all animals are priced at. the price then increases for any attribute that is highly prized..that is where we get high priced show horses, donor cows,ect,ect.

think of it like a pyramid, the vast majority of the animals will fill in the base..the per pound. as you get to the top, the number of animals up there gets smaller.

now, if you took away the base of the pyramid, what would happen? the whole structure would collaspe..welcome to the horse market. 

The breeders who didnt have a plan and bred for the wrong reasons are getting out..they would have been feeling the pinch even if the slaughterhouses were still open..its the ECONOMY that is crippling the market and the closure of the plants was the final nail in the coffin.

I dont think opening back up the plants will instantly fix this problem..I think the economy will have to recover abit and people will still need to make smart breeding choices(like they should have in the first place)

I did not breed anything back this year..the good breeders will batten down the proverbial hatches and ride this out..but whose to know how long this will last?


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I know I would be considered a tree hugger by some but I see no problem with humanely euthanizing and eating a horse or really any other animal. Why would we euthanize an animal and bury it when it can serve a nobler purpose? Either way it's going to be consumed by something.
> I might be a little squeamish about it but if I were hungry and needed to feed my children...you bet I'd eat them.



ahhh see, i think the key here though is HUMANE euthanization, & that's not what is happening @ the mexican & canadian slaughter plants. sorry, but it isn't.

yeah, well we are al diff. it's what makes the world go round right?

says she, who stitched up a chicken's neck the other night lol yep ~ several people told us to eat her, sorry ~ i don't roll like that.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

harvestgirl said:


> ahhh see, i think the key here though is HUMANE euthanization, & that's not what is happening @ the mexican & canadian slaughter plants. sorry, but it isn't.


I'm sorry...where did I say that it was? YOu may have misunderstood me. I would never send a horse of mine to a slaughter facility, legal or otherwise. I'd shoot them myself first if need be. And if someone has to kill thier horse...why not eat it if they need the meat? I just don't want horses or other animals to suffer needlessly. That's partly why we raise our own meat. Though I think that given humane conditions in transportation and facilities for horses, slaughterhouses are far preferable to a slow death by starvation or neglect.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

harvestgirl said:


> ahhh see, i think the key here though is HUMANE euthanization, & that's not what is happening @ the mexican & canadian slaughter plants. sorry, but it isn't.


But this is where I have the big problem with the legislation that closed the U.S slaughter plants. There were regulations in place mandating humane transport to slaughter plants and humane slaughter in the U.S.

The groups and individuals who pushed this legislation through got it done because they could show inhumane treatment. IF they had used the money they spent getting legislation passed closing the U.S. slaughter plants to FUND inspections and enforcement of the regulations already in place, the majority of inhumane treatment could have been stopped, horses would not now be shipped over much longer distances to slaughter plants that may not have humane regulations in place and unwanted horses would not be turned out to starve.


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## animalfarmer (Feb 14, 2006)

spinandslide has explained exactly what has happened. With slaughter plants looking for animals to process in the U.S.,horses were always worth a base price per pound. When funding for inspection was removed,effectively ending commercial slaughter for human consumption,the base price value went away. Though not the total cause the elimination of this funding,along with excessive breeding has substantially contributed to the surplus of horses and their neglect in the U.S. today.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

harvestgirl said:


> ahhh see, i think the key here though is HUMANE euthanization, & that's not what is happening @ the mexican & canadian slaughter plants. sorry, but it isn't.
> 
> yeah, well we are al diff. it's what makes the world go round right?
> 
> says she, who stitched up a chicken's neck the other night lol yep ~ several people told us to eat her, sorry ~ i don't roll like that.


What's the difference between Mexican and/or Canadian slaughter plants euthanizing cows, pigs or goats? Is it still inhumane? Livestock is livestock. 

Horses need slightly different specifications to _ship_ to slaughter basically because of height issues but many states already had them in place before the inspection funding was withheld.

IMHO, the no slaughter ruling was the cause of the horrendous neglect cases we've been seeing for the last several years. I had an old gelding put down this summer between the Vet and a backhoe it was over $400 to bury him and in many places you can't bury a large animal on your property. It's nearly as much to have a rendering truck pick up the carcass- if you can find one that will pick up horses. I had the money to do it but many don't so with no slaughter outlet these horses are left to die of neglect or starvation, any slaughter plant is preferable to that lingering horrible death.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

I've said it before, but for the new folks- I am one of the few horse rescue people who are FOR slaughter. Seeing how numbers of abandoned and starving horses have jumped in the last few years- both for us personally and for other rescues- is proof positive that the closure of US slaughter plants was an ill thought out, irresponsible move. 
Instead of instant death at the end of a captive bolt, these animals are starving to death in backyards across the nation or else being turned loose to fend for themselves- causing neighborhood havoc or wandering in the roads and being hit by cars.

Instead of instant death at the end of a captive bolt in a US slaughter house- inspected and ran humanely- they are forced into trailers, many times over capacity and breaking laws regarding transportation of horses and trucked across the borders into neighboring countries who have their own list of laws and accepted practices that do not follow the US's version of humane handling. 

Wow, that's SOME lucky horses there- being spared death at a US plant. They just don't know how good they have it, huh?

I've always said that anyone who voted to discontinue US slaughter should have delivered, free of charge, to their condo, townhouse, high rise apartment or suburban home (and the few rural folks who may have voted as well) a couple of horses. They should have to maintain them- proper food and vet care, farrier care and such- for life, deriving no use from them, such as riding or anything. They should have to care for these animals until the day they day- then figure out what to do with the carcasses. After each horse dies, they would have another delivered and the process would start all over again. 

Once the onus is on THEM, the care of these unwanted animals placed in their lily white hands, then we'll see how they feel about the animals they 'saved'.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Excellent post, Ramblin Rose Ranch.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== I had an old gelding put down this summer between the Vet and a backhoe it was over $400 to bury him and in many places you can't bury a large animal on your property. ===


Many years ago, I had the vet put down an equine. HE took care of the carcass. My cost? $10.

Same stuff is used today to put down an equine, but the charge is $300 - $400. And WE have to hire a disposal company. We have a few here and they charge the same as the vet. Lot of money!

Although I presently live, but will be moving soon, where livestock are allowed, most who live in the area are not livestock folks and would have a fit if a horse was shot and a backhoe used.

So folks take the horse out in the desert, put a bullet in them and leave a meal for the wildlife. Knowing where to place the bullet, the horse is dead before their finger leaves the trigger. It's quicker than what the vets use to euthanize and a bullet costs a he// of a lot less. I have used this method for dogs, but not yet for large critters.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Rogo said:


> Knowing where to place the bullet, the horse is dead before their finger leaves the trigger. It's quicker than what the vets use to euthanize and a bullet costs a he// of a lot less. I have used this method for dogs, but not yet for large critters.


The county here has a disposal truck that will come pick up dead animals and dispose of them for $25, a bargain in this day and age. 

Several years ago, I had a vet come out to do a favorite old mare ... $50 for the farm call and I think it was $50 for the euthanizing. However, she turned out to be one of the few that is resistant to the euthanizing meds. It doesn't happen often but I will absolutely NEVER risk that happening to one of my horses again. I know how to do it, I have a .38 handgun that packs plenty of power, I've done it ... and I will continue to do it when necessary.

As far as I'm concerned, instantaneous death with a mouthful of grain, in surroundings you're familiar with, with people you trust is the last kindest thing you can do.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Thanks, Pixie.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Rogo said:


> === I had an old gelding put down this summer between the Vet and a backhoe it was over $400 to bury him and in many places you can't bury a large animal on your property. ===
> 
> 
> Many years ago, I had the vet put down an equine. HE took care of the carcass. My cost? $10.
> ...


The Vet charge was a $100 including the farm call, the real cost was the backhoe. I even knew the backhoe owner and he gave me a deal on his hourly rate. 

I had to have the Vet out on his horse, I'd had him forever and couldn't shoot him myself. I have seen a bad reaction to a euthanizing agent and still couldn't put him down myself. I'm just not as tough as I thought I was... thankfully everything went smoothly.


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## animalfarmer (Feb 14, 2006)

This has been a very good discussion.Calm and without the bashing that sometimes occurs whenever someone wants to talk about horse meat or horse slaughtering.It is ,I believe,a necessity if we are to continue to have a healthy national horse herd.
I never thought of posting this before.I am located in southern new england.I have a captive bolt stunner and the necessary expertise. If it will help anyone I would be willing to help someone to put down and then convert their mini horse,donkey,horse etc. into pet food if that is of interest or value. Anyone may P.M. me if they feel I may be of service. Best of luck to all.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

A very nice offer thank you, Animalfarmer. It would take a real hardship for me to eat the mares I have left tho. I have no problem eating horsemeat I'd just rather not have cared for it for years.


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## gracie88 (May 29, 2007)

> Interesting article. Something needs to happen. A good start would be if people would stop breeding just because they happen to have a horse with a uterus or testicles.


Yabbut, that still doesn't work for the wild herds. Personally, I think making meat of the worst ones, adopting out the better ones, and turning the best back out to contribute to the gene pool is a logical and effective way to handle the wild ones.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

gracie88 said:


> Yabbut, that still doesn't work for the wild herds.


I agree with you, have never understood how the people/groups who are rabidly anti-slaughter can also be just as rabidly pro-wild mustangs. What do they think the stallions and mares are doing out there in the "wonderful, wild state on the national lands" ... picking daisies?

If you are anti-slaughter and anti-breeding (quote: if people would stop breeding horses we would not have the problem of unwanted horses") ... how can you turn around and say "mustangs are our heritage, they should not be rounded up or slaughtered, the ranchers leasing the BLM lands to graze cattle should be kicked off so that the wonderful, wild mustangs can be left in peace as a visible part of our western heritage" ...

Sure, left in peace to *reproduce indiscriminately* as a re-introduced feral animal.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

You will notice the BLM no longer calls them 'mustangs,' but wild horses. Years ago, the BLM told me there wasn't enough mustang blood left in them to call them mustangs. 

So folks are not protecting and revering a national heritage, they're revering a lot of backyard horses that are running loose!


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Rogo said:


> You will notice the BLM no longer calls them 'mustangs,' but wild horses. Years ago, the BLM told me there wasn't enough mustang blood left in them to call them mustangs.


Exactly. In the 20s and 30s in Montana and Wyoming there were a lot of homesteaders that didn't 'prove up' and packed up and went home. A lot of the time they would just turn their light/grade draft horses out and take the train back to 'civilization'. So guess where some of those grade draft horses ended up?

Backyard breeding at its' finest!


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## KIT.S (Oct 8, 2008)

We've been given pigs, sheep, goats, llamas, rabbits, chickens, geese, ducks & turkeys, all with no strings about eating them. I was feeding the free-range chickens the other day, noticing the ones someone slipped over the fence again who weren't ours. We've been offered so many horses it's scary. Lately I've been telling folks who want me to take their horse that I require a used freezer come with every horse. Some ask how big the freezer has to be. A couple asked if I would take their horse, and could they try the sausage when it was prepared? No, I haven't butchered a horse yet. I haven't needed the meat and I don't have dogs. 
A lot of times the horses that people need to give away are underfed or old and wouldn't make a good butcher animal, and friends whose horses got old or injured spent hundreds of dollars they didn't have to dispose of them. 
There are two wild animal parks here who will take an animal still able to walk, but they require delivery, and folks who can't afford to feed or bury their horse can't afford to deliver it, either.
I really do want to make horse sausage one of these days, but right now all the freezers are full.
Kit


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

SFM in KY said:


> Sure, left in peace to *reproduce indiscriminately* as a re-introduced feral animal.


I talked to some BLM guys and they said if they are heard using the term feral horses, it gets them an official reprimand and a little slip in their permanent file.

Around here most of the wild horses came from a rodeo stock company that went out of business in the 1940s.

I've never eaten horse but would, gladly. I've always heard they get more tender as they age, unlike many critters. Wiki seems to agree:

Horse meat is usually very lean and tender. Jurisdictions which allow for the slaughter of horses for food rarely have age restrictions, so many are quite old. However, unlike many other types of meat, horse meat becomes more tender as the animal advances in age.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Ed Norman said:


> Around here most of the wild horses came from a rodeo stock company that went out of business in the 1940s.


I also wonder if some of the 'mustangs' weren't horses turned loose when the market for cavalry horses no longer existed. I remember my father talking about helping round up somewhere around 400 horses running on the Sioux reservation (probably would have been several years after WWI) in SD. His uncle had been raising horses for the U.S. Cavalry and when the war ended, so did the market, so they just ran 'unattended' for several years.


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## animalfarmer (Feb 14, 2006)

If anyone in new england has the horse and wants to share,I'll provide the tools and the labor. It would be an interesting experiment I think.


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## unregistered65598 (Oct 4, 2010)

I lived in Japan for a few years and unknowingly ate horse. I went to a local market where they spoke no English and nothing was written in English, I would go there every weekend to get a bunch of pre-cooked foods from what we in the USA would call the deli. It was always fun to experiment things we had never tried. Well on this trip I walked past the meat counter and saw something that looked like it was marinated beef. Thought how hard could this be to cook up, so I added it to my goodies took it home and we ate it. It was very good!!! But at the same time I was freaking out thinking we had eaten dog or cat, because it sure was not beef. Went back and bought another package for DH to take to work as he worked with some Japanese who could translate. He called me the next day from work, told me I better sit down, then told me we had eaten trigger last night!!! Well shock wore off quick and I told him to keep the meat in the fridge and bring it home with him because I knew what we were having for dinner. Horse is a really good meat, I would buy it if I could.


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## harvestgirl (Apr 29, 2005)

slaughter wouldn't even be necessary if it weren't for the humans who over breed & are irresponsible.

so what do we do? take the lives of animals, they pay for the mistakes we make.

it's pretty sad.

anyone can disagree with me, that's all fine & dandy. everyone here seems pretty set in their ways. 

if there was a way to absolutely guarantee a painless, cruelty free way to utilize horse meat, i could *possibly* (more than likely not lol) be swayed.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

harvestgirl said:


> slaughter wouldn't even be necessary if it weren't for the humans who over breed & are irresponsible.
> 
> so what do we do? take the lives of animals, they pay for the mistakes we make.
> 
> ...


I'm still waiting for your response to the cow.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

harvestgirl said:


> slaughter wouldn't even be necessary if it weren't for the humans who over breed & are irresponsible.
> 
> so what do we do? take the lives of animals, they pay for the mistakes we make.
> 
> ...


How would you go about eliminating irresponsible breeders? Laws/regulations? Fees? Government agencies? Most small breeders (I'm not talking about empty uterus syndrome) that breed a few quality mares to quality stallions barely broke even when the economy was good- additional costs of any kind would put them in the red with each foal. In this economy many times you can't even get back the cost of the breeding fee. You may have a point with the Thoroughbred and Standardbred racing farms, but even then when the slaughter plants were open there was an option for unsound or unraceable horses. A captive bolt death is humane- personally I'd much rather a captive bolt causing instant brain death to slowly starving or dying of neglect.

You never answered my prior question, do you feel any differently about the death of a cow, sheep, goat, pig, or chicken? They are all livestock. 

Most people on this forum have at least a grasp on reality. I have to go to the barn and feed my two out-of-work broodmares.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> I have to go to the barn and feed my two out-of-work broodmares.


:teehee: Me too and I've got 8 of them. Oh, wait ... no ... after three years, I bred three mares this last spring so I've only got 5 that are out of work! 

Not counting the one I bought, of course, or the two that "followed me home" for awhile ... so I guess I do still have 8 out of work broodmares.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

When I was posting her about empty uterus syndrome..hopefully no one thought I was talking about responsible and knowledgeable breeders here like SFM and IP.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> When I was posting her about empty uterus syndrome..hopefully no one thought I was talking about responsible and knowledgeable breeders here like SFM and IP.


Oh, gee ... and I was just about to post a nasty-gram saying that I wasn't an irresponsible breeder as I had a plan for where my foals were going to go ... out to Idaho! :rotfl:


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## Olivia67 (Mar 6, 2008)

On the subject of horse meat, there is a blackmarket for it. I've read that horsemeat goes for 4-10 dollars a pound. In Florida there is a big problem with the blackmarketers killing horses and literally leaving behind the parts that they don't need and they pick sweet, healthy horses that will just walk right up to them. It is horrible and this wouldn't happen if the slaughter houses were still open and they had a legal way to obtain horse meat, this only started when they closed down the slaughter houses. In Mexico where there are no laws on how to humanly kill horses, they used to kill around 10,000 or under a year, now they are killing over 33,000 a year and making lots of money doing it too. And there is no USDA officer watching over to make sure that the horses have food and water while they wait for their time and making sure that they are healthy enough for human consumption. I don't want to ever be in a position to have to eat horse, I like beef and chicken and deer when I can get it but the reality is that our slaughter houses were run pretty well and much better and more humanly than Mexico's are and they never should have been shut down. Whomever was behind it should have every old, lame horse dumped literally on their front lawn. The fact is that horses live a very long time and although I love them I understand that someone who has had a horse for 25 years and loses their job and has to decide whether to feed their kids or their horse should not have to worry that their pet is going to Mexico. O.k, rant over...the problem is that the idiots who should read these posts never will and they have more money to throw at lobbyist then the sensible and reasonable crowds.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

So which is better -- getting run over by vehicles; starving/dehydrating in the desert -- which is what's happening now to equine being turned loose -- or the slaughter house? There are no good answers.

Most of these horses aren't from over breeding, it's due to folks no longer being able to afford what they have.

Some rescues have had to close since they no longer can afford to feed the critters. Feed prices are soaring. Feed once grown to be eaten by humans and critters is now used for ethanol, which has proven to be a failure.

We have all kinds of critters here that have been turned loose -- dogs, cats, poultry, llamas, horses, mules, donkeys, etc. You name it and I've probably seen it going down my road.

The only ones content with the present situation are the wildlife who are enjoying the meat.

Look at our country as a whole. The citizens have allowed it to be run down to where it is. Gotta be the dumbest country on the planet.


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

I grew up eating horse meat. Then as an adult I became a horse trainer and only got to eat it on 'special' occasions. Now I have cattle who I have become very attached to also but know they will end up in the freezer. One of my race mares who broke a knee and didn't come sound after almost 2 yrs rest became a dilemma.....what to do? I said to DH " I have always eaten horse meat but it would be a shame to have her shipped to a plant" We decided to do it ourselves....she got a bowl of grain an a bullet.....The meat was great! One thing about horse meat though is it will go sour in the freezer after 4-6 months....we ate the best cuts and the dog (big big dog) got the rest. I won't hesitate to do it again. I think it was the most humane thing we could have done for her.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Onthebit said:


> One thing about horse meat though is it will go sour in the freezer after 4-6 months


You wrapped it just as well as any other meat but it still goes sour? Interesting.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

harvestgirl said:


> slaughter wouldn't even be necessary if it weren't for the humans who over breed & are irresponsible.
> 
> so what do we do? take the lives of animals, they pay for the mistakes we make.
> 
> ...


I don't see that there's any difference between those that disagree with you and your desire to disagree with others. This is always a discussion that elicits strong emotions and it doesn't appear that you're any more flexible than the people you disagree with. 

I would like to hear a bit more about how you would like to prevent poor breeders, ineffective trainers and flat out bad horse owners without harming the good people in the industry and what you feel should be done with the glut of horses out there right now.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

I personally do not have a problem with a horse industry where the better quality horses are kept while the poorer quality animals are slaughtered. Every single other livestock industry operates this way and there is no reason that the horse industry shouldn't either. If you are opposed to horse slaughter the solution is simple, just don't breed and then sell horses.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

harvestgirl said:


> slaughter wouldn't even be necessary if it weren't for the humans who over breed & are irresponsible.


I have a specific question on this. What would you suggest be done with all of the 'mustangs' (i.e. feral horses) that are running on the public lands and reproducing indiscriminately?

There are groups and individuals that are adamantly opposed to any kind of control and culling. But if they continue to reproduce, even though humans are not the ones 'overbreeding' in this situation, they will continue to be a problem as well.

Even now, there are many more mustangs being corralled and put up for adoption than there are 'adoptees' for these horses. How would you suggest this situation be handled?


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

*



Put Horse Meat in US Diet, Slaughter Groups Say

Click to expand...

*


> (AP) LAS VEGAS - Ranchers and horse owners in the United States should be allowed to slaughter their animals and sell the meat as food, said dozens of breeders, trainers and lawmakers gathered in Las Vegas this week to revive the nation's shuttered horse processing industry.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/04/national/main7213227.shtml


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

animalfarmer said:


> spinandslide has explained exactly what has happened. With slaughter plants looking for animals to process in the U.S.,horses were always worth a base price per pound. When funding for inspection was removed,effectively ending commercial slaughter for human consumption,the base price value went away. Though not the total cause the elimination of this funding,along with excessive breeding has substantially contributed to the surplus of horses and their neglect in the U.S. today.


It is basic economics..the pyramid talk is Ive found the easiest for folks to visually understand the dilemma.. (I am a VERY visual person myself!)

Top of the line horses will always be expensive..but even those have dropped in price from what they were say 2-3 years ago. I remember going to Shawnee in OK..high sellers approaching 100K..last time I checked, the high sellers were HALF that..

the bottom of the market horses will suffer worse, because they werent worth alot to begin with..and the people willing to purchase such horses are those who cant afford a horse anymore...generally..the "rec" crowd I call them...that is where you find these $50 horses.

the overbreeding has truly been "cut in half"..how would a person keep breeding lower end horses for $10 a piece at the sale barn? its not fesiable. the surplus of horses we are seeing are due to the fact that so many in this country are selling out or selling down to almost nothing. there are no buyers to buy these access horses flooding into the market..and no slaughterplants to take them..

There is truly an issue when livestock is abandoned at the salebarn because the commission fee will be more then what the horse sold for!


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

spinandslide said:


> There is truly an issue when livestock is abandoned at the salebarn because the commission fee will be more then what the horse sold for!


We've seen this here in KY. One or two auctions have stopped selling horses at all. I know of several instances in which horses or mules have been tied to outside fences with a sign "free" during the sale, no owner information available. And at least one seller took his two horses in to the sale ring, sold them and came out to find a strange horse had been loaded into his empty trailer out in the lot.

If you can't afford to feed it, you can't sell it and you can't give it away, what do you do?


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

SFM in KY said:


> I have a specific question on this. What would you suggest be done with all of the 'mustangs' (i.e. feral horses) that are running on the public lands and reproducing indiscriminately?
> 
> There are groups and individuals that are adamantly opposed to any kind of control and culling. But if they continue to reproduce, even though humans are not the ones 'overbreeding' in this situation, they will continue to be a problem as well.
> 
> Even now, there are many more mustangs being corralled and put up for adoption than there are 'adoptees' for these horses. How would you suggest this situation be handled?


I know this wasn't directed at me, but there are a lot of homeless shelters and food pantries that would welcome the meat, I bet - as long as they didn't know what it was. There does seem to a stigma attached to eating it, perhaps because horses have been used for dog food and glue manufacturing in the past? Like it's beneath folks to eat horsemeat,something you feed to animals but not to humans.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

2horses said:


> <<< there are a lot of homeless shelters and food pantries that would welcome the meat, I bet - as long as they didn't know what it was. >>>


Unfortunately, whether it is labeled or not, without slaughter plants in the U.S. that are licensed to slaughter horses for human consumption ... there's no way for it to get processed.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

SFM in KY said:


> We've seen this here in KY. One or two auctions have stopped selling horses at all. I know of several instances in which horses or mules have been tied to outside fences with a sign "free" during the sale, no owner information available. And at least one seller took his two horses in to the sale ring, sold them and came out to find a strange horse had been loaded into his empty trailer out in the lot.
> 
> If you can't afford to feed it, you can't sell it and you can't give it away, what do you do?


Heard of similar instances around the country..not in my area..we still have a man who makes the rounds and takes horses to Mexico..I know of a person who was a "breeder" who sold most of his stock to this man..he couldnt give these horses away..they werent "bad" horses..there was just NO MARKET for them!

the people breeding for the market that dissapeared are the ones who are getting out..others, like myself, are simply forging ahead. Weve always kept breeding to a minimum..and Im not planning on breeding this year..the market needs a chance to recover and re-stabilize..which I feel would happen FASTER if the plants were opened back up.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

SFM in KY said:


> Unfortunately, whether it is labeled or not, without slaughter plants in the U.S. that are licensed to slaughter horses for human consumption ... there's no way for it to get processed.


 Correct as it has to have USDA approved for anybody to sell the meat.


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

Ed Norman said:


> You wrapped it just as well as any other meat but it still goes sour? Interesting.


Yes it does....I read about it so double wrapped in the meat paper and still found it getting an 'taste' after 4 months. Another interesting thing is when we cut the meat up it was -5 or so C and the meat had ice crystals in it but was still very soft. 

Some European countries did consider horse to be the 'poor mans food' so that could be part of the original stigma associated with it's consumption. I also read that the British banned the consumption of horse during the first world war because they needed them for the war effort. Lots of stigmas abound but the truth is horse is very nutritious and safe to eat. 

http://www.vianderichelieu.com/en/cheval/frame1_cheval.htm

"A popular saying states : "old beef, bad meat; old horse, good meat"! Connoisseurs appreciate older horsemeat because it has matured and it is ready for consumption."


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

So...... I have a question. Is it illegal for personal slaughter of horses for someone's own use? I thought it was now, rather than just commercial slaughter. Horses were deemed companion animals. And if it is legal, what about koreans living in the states and their dogs? Just how far does the "companion" animal definition go?

Personally, just from what I remember of horse meat as a kid many decades ago, it isn't worth slaughter in my opinion. But that is just a memory of a small child who didn't like it.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

mekasmom said:


> So...... I have a question. Is it illegal for personal slaughter of horses for someone's own use? I thought it was now, rather than just commercial slaughter. Horses were deemed companion animals. And if it is legal, what about koreans living in the states and their dogs? Just how far does the "companion" animal definition go?
> 
> Personally, just from what I remember of horse meat as a kid many decades ago, it isn't worth slaughter in my opinion. But that is just a memory of a small child who didn't like it.


In don't believe horses are considered a "companion" animal and as such, I don't believe there are any regulations against home slaughter for personal consumtion, whether by the owner or as food for the owner's dogs. I think I remember reading that California was trying to get legislation passed to have horses designated as companion animals but the livestock producers/horsemen were actively opposing the attempt, which was, of course, primarily funded by PETA groups.

I believe the designation of dogs and cats as "companion animals" prohibits their slaughter for human consumption, even by their owners, but I think the prohibition comes under the laws that deal with animal abuse something. Not completely sure on that.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

SFM is right..horses are classified as LIVESTOCK, so you could butcher a horse for your own consumption..Ive even heard of people butchering horses for their dogs..heck, back in the "old" days, when a hunter (a horse) got to old/lame to continue carrying its master, it was shot and fed to the hounds. THIS was considered an honorable end to the horse and the meat did not go to waste.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== Is it illegal for personal slaughter of horses for someone's own use? ===


I don't know that answer, but folks have been raising horses for their freezers for a very long time. They do their own butchering. And they keep quiet about it.

Seeing the flack that meat Potbelly pig breeders get, you can understand why the horse meat eating folks keep quiet. It's difficult to find meat Potbelly breeders since they don't want the flack and hide. I've only seen one on the web. He even has his hate mail on his site! I conversed with him when I was researching using the pigs for meat. The breeder I got my starting stock from doesn't hide. I haven't been either.

A processor here told me he'd help me if I needed it when I start doing my own butchering of the PBPs. No charge. Many do it on the tailgate of their truck. 

If the government doesn't make money from something, it's illegal! So they go after the raw milk folks, anyone not using USDA facilities for butchering, prostitution, whatever. Folks don't want processed milk full of all kinds of crap. Cock fighting isn't illegal; it's the betting that's illegal. And of course that goes on at the fights. Burying critters on your property, which many of us have done. And on and on it goes.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Rogo said:


> If the government doesn't make money from something, it's illegal! So they go after the raw milk folks, anyone not using USDA facilities for butchering, prostitution, whatever.


You have to use a USDA facility for prostitution?:smiley-laughing013:


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== You have to use a USDA facility for prostitution?:smiley-laughing013: ===


Heavens no. There would be even MORE disease spread around! :O)


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## Mulegirl (Oct 6, 2010)

arabian knight said:


> *
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/04/national/main7213227.shtml*


*
Don't read the comments on the article . . . some of them will make you want to beat your head against the wall: "Horses are not cattle, and just because they have meat on their bones, as do all mammals, does not mean that they should be targeted to be cleared from public lands." Well, no, horses are horses and cows are cows . . . why should that mean that it's okay to eat cows and not horses? :smack:

I've met some very personable cows, but that won't stop me from eating beef. I'd probably eat horse as well if given the opportunity.

What's with all of these comments about horse meat being "full of drugs"? Is it really any worse than any other livestock? All I remember ever giving our mules and pony and horse when I was a kid was de-wormer about once/year and vaccinations when necessary for showing.*


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Mulegirl said:


> What's with all of these comments about horse meat being "full of drugs"? Is it really any worse than any other livestock? All I remember ever giving our mules and pony and horse when I was a kid was de-wormer about once/year and vaccinations when necessary for showing.


I think most people are referring to show horses and race horses, some of whom are, in fact, given a lot of drugs. However, not much different from cattle if they are treated for illness, etc. ... and after a certain amount of time I think the majority of the drugs are eliminated from the system, they are not retained in the tissues for the rest of the horse's life.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Mulegirl said:


> What's with all of these comments about horse meat being "full of drugs"? Is it really any worse than any other livestock? All I remember ever giving our mules and pony and horse when I was a kid was de-wormer about once/year and vaccinations when necessary for showing.


It was one of the major points used to ban the slaughter houses. That the medications given to horses aren't approved for human consumption. Many of those regular medications(deworming, etc) are not far off from the same stuff you would use on your cattle or goats.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== What's with all of these comments about horse meat being "full of drugs"? Is it really any worse than any other livestock? All I remember ever giving our mules and pony and horse when I was a kid was de-wormer about once/year and vaccinations when necessary for showing. ===


Guess all my livestock and house pets are fine for eating. Since I feed DE so they don't get sickness/diseases, I haven't vaccinated for years, the DE deworms, no medications have been needed.

Y'all wanna come on down for a chow-in?

Of course, you'll have to get past the livestock guardian dogs and my guns to do so.


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## Mulegirl (Oct 6, 2010)

So, basically, if horses being sent to slaughter were kept for a while at a, for lack of a better word, "fattening-up" facility, this would likely be a moot point, yes? Sheesh. Some people just look for any excuse to ban something that they find emotionally difficult, don't they? Because of course if they find it emotionally difficult, it must be morally wrong. /sarcasm

For the record, I consider myself to be a bit of a "tree-hugger" in that I'm always looking to do things in a way that'll make it possible for my children and grandchildren to keep doing the same things in fifty years. To me this means "sustainable," though, not "eliminate all effects of human life." Those folks aren't really "tree-huggers"--they're just crazies.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Mulegirl, horse is legal for human consumption in Canada and we have equine feedlots which are generally in place to make sure the horses are in good condition and the are kept for a period to ensure all drugs would be out of their system, just as beef feedlots are supposed to do.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

So on the topic of the wild horses... Isn't there birth control for horses? Couldn't the states keep record of which horses had been given the BC each year and rotate who gets the shot, to keep the herds' bloodlines diversified, and cull out the old mares when they're so old they shouldn't be producing foals anyway? (SOMETHING like that...?)

I know there's birth control for things like hippos at the zoo, so there's GOT to be something out there that works for horses...


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

SilverFlame819 said:


> So on the topic of the wild horses... Isn't there birth control for horses? Couldn't the states keep record of which horses had been given the BC each year and rotate who gets the shot, to keep the herds' bloodlines diversified, and cull out the old mares when they're so old they shouldn't be producing foals anyway? (SOMETHING like that...?)
> 
> I know there's birth control for things like hippos at the zoo, so there's GOT to be something out there that works for horses...


No, there isn't anything that works for horses on a long term basis. There are things, but it requires that the horses be 'handled' on a regular basis, something like once a month. Since mustangs are 'wild' they can not be rounded up, put in corrals, run through chutes and 'medicated' or a procedure done. 

I understand there may be some oral medications that work with some species, but nothing for horses. The only ovulation inhibitor that I know of for mares would have to be given by injection every 10 days. The oral medication they use on racetracks to keep mares out of heat has to be given daily.

The only thing I know of that keeps stallions from producing is being gelded.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

The wild ponies on the Maryland side of Assateague island are on birth control, to keep the population under control..it is given via dart gun.

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/06/132712168/government-reins-in-wild-horses-using-birth-control


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Very interesting article, spinandslide thank you for linking it. I had no idea that Assateague ponies were managed so well or that it was possible to give birth control to mares that last an entire season. I'm glad to see the BLM is going to do the same thing.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

welcome..they were forced into it because of the fragile ecosystem an island is. granted, as the article says, a barrier island and miles upon miles of open range are two different chickens to fry, but..its a start.

the VA ponies are managed thru the auction process, but the Maryland side, under the federal govt's control, are given the BC darts. It has worked VERY well.

I dont understand some of the comments though below the article..the BLM is trying to look into alternate ways to control the population and people STILL arent happy..I dont understand.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I suspect that kind of "close control" is easier with an island. The ponies are apparantly used to the penning, brought in every year, managed much more like range horses would be. Not 'trained' or handled, but brought in to the corrals once a year, vaccinated, etc. I don't know if you could get close enough to a mustang herd to use a dart gun reliably, though possibly with a helicopter. But again, there ... people are already protesting about using helicopters to assist in corralling the mustang herds.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== So on the topic of the wild horses... Isn't there birth control for horses? ===


The public is paying a lot in taxes to keep the wild ones in corrals -- which never made sense to me since they're no longer 'wild.' I've had them come up to me for petting! 

Even if there was birth control, how thrilled would the public be to know they'll pay even more for the process -- there's thousands of horses out there!


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

SFM in KY said:


> I suspect that kind of "close control" is easier with an island. The ponies are apparantly used to the penning, brought in every year, managed much more like range horses would be. Not 'trained' or handled, but brought in to the corrals once a year, vaccinated, etc. I don't know if you could get close enough to a mustang herd to use a dart gun reliably, though possibly with a helicopter. But again, there ... people are already protesting about using helicopters to assist in corralling the mustang herds.


no, the ones who are on Birth control are those on the maryland side of assateague. they are managed by the govt, not the Chincoteague fire dept.

those on the VA side (managed by the FD) are brought in at least twice a year for vaccs, wormings and trimming. they are the ones penned and auctioned off.. those on the maryland side are not touched at all..no vaccs, nothing...they are not auctioned off..but yes, being in an island setting it makes it abit easier to find the ponies.

that is what I spoke of..if you read the comments, you find people up in arms about BC being used on the mustangs..I dont understand..the BLM cant win for loosing with these wacknuts.....

and here we stand, taxpayers, paying for mustangs to be held in holding pens their entire lives..why? Id certainly support a BC program for the mustangs..but people need to step out of the way and let the BLM do it!


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

I was able to see the wild island ponies this past year, from the VA side(didn't realize the different sides were managed differently. I expected to see ponies running around at free will. What I found was a bit dissapointing. The herds were fenced with barbed wire and brought in for regular veterinary work. One lady there was informing us that they control which horses stay and which get auctioned off(selective breeding). Apparently one of the band's lead mares were going to be captured and auctioned off because she was leading the whole herd out of the fences(very loose two strands of barbed wire).

We enjoyed visiting the local pony stables and being able to pet some of the ponies that were previously auctioned off, but as for seeing "wild" ponies, I was a little put out.

I thought the whole island was managed as such, interesting to hear about the BC darts. I know many places have gone to oral contraceptives for invasive(overpopulated) species such as the non-migrating Canada geese.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

I agree. Seems nobody is ever happy. The horses can't run wild and free, completely untouched and freely procreating into eternity. We just don't have the resources for that now that people are taking over the wilderness. There has to be a happy medium. There will always be SOMEONE complaining.

Perhaps the only solution is to geld the majority of the stallions every year that are born, but still... It only takes one stallion to breed a bajillion mares, so that probably wouldn't fix the issue. The only way to fix the issue, I would guess, would be to auction off all the mares every year that were not wanted for breeding. And I just can't see that working very well long-term. You'd have to cull a huge number of the studs to keep them from constantly fighting over mares, and we've already proven that there's no market for the ones they're bringing in for auction... Which brings us back to the horse meat option, which people also freak out over.

Definitely a no-win situation for those in charge. There are too many extremists who will spend their lives screaming from atop their 5-story soapboxes, no matter what route is chosen. Some people don't believe in compromise, only having things their own way.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

SilverFlame819 said:


> I agree. Seems nobody is ever happy. The horses can't run wild and free, completely untouched and freely procreating into eternity. We just don't have the resources for that now that people are taking over the wilderness. There has to be a happy medium. There will always be SOMEONE complaining.
> 
> Perhaps the only solution is to geld the majority of the stallions every year that are born, but still... It only takes one stallion to breed a bajillion mares, so that probably wouldn't fix the issue. The only way to fix the issue, I would guess, would be to auction off all the mares every year that were not wanted for breeding. And I just can't see that working very well long-term. You'd have to cull a huge number of the studs to keep them from constantly fighting over mares, and we've already proven that there's no market for the ones they're bringing in for auction... Which brings us back to the horse meat option, which people also freak out over.
> 
> Definitely a no-win situation for those in charge. There are too many extremists who will spend their lives screaming from atop their 5-story soapboxes, no matter what route is chosen. Some people don't believe in compromise, only having things their own way.


Someone will complain no matter what is done. Even if you were to geld some the stallions, someone out there will complain that it's unnatural or just not "nice". Something has to give in that cycle, they used to be round up and shipped off to slaughter. Then they were rounded up and auctioned off(some still went to slaughter). I don't believe(could be wrong) we have a natural predator that routinely goes after horses, so the only thing "natural" to keep their population in check is disease and starvation. In most instances with other species(deer, wolf, bear, goose, hog, etc), they would open up a hunting season and give hunters a controlled bag limit. And I really don't see that happening with the feral horses!


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

wolffeathers said:


> I was able to see the wild island ponies this past year, from the VA side(didn't realize the different sides were managed differently. I expected to see ponies running around at free will. What I found was a bit dissapointing. The herds were fenced with barbed wire and brought in for regular veterinary work. One lady there was informing us that they control which horses stay and which get auctioned off(selective breeding). Apparently one of the band's lead mares were going to be captured and auctioned off because she was leading the whole herd out of the fences(very loose two strands of barbed wire).
> 
> We enjoyed visiting the local pony stables and being able to pet some of the ponies that were previously auctioned off, but as for seeing "wild" ponies, I was a little put out.
> 
> I thought the whole island was managed as such, interesting to hear about the BC darts. I know many places have gone to oral contraceptives for invasive(overpopulated) species such as the non-migrating Canada geese.



unfortunantly, the VA side decided to "contain" the ponies because of the likelyhood of them getting hit, injuring visitors, getting fed something dangerous by people or people trying to "ride" them (yes, all the above happened.. ) If you take a boat tour, you can sometimes see the bands,,and there is a bus tour that Ive heard is VERY good for seeing the ponies. We took the boat tour and saw ponies.

the maryland side is different, the ponies are loose and its unfortunantly not uncommon for them to get hit by cars.... some also take fun in harassing campers. my Chincoteague filly's great grandsire was one of the few ponies who crossed the fence to the VA side..after numerous attempts to keep him on the maryland side, they let the FD keep him. "Hot Air Balloon" Ive been told had a reputation of ransacking camps and tearing down tents that he came across..

the selective breeding done on the VA side has improved the breed..the maryland side lacks alot of the "nicer" traits in their animals that the VA side has worked hard to keep in the herds. the addition of mustang, arab and QH blood have created some very nice animals on the VA side.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

spinandslide said:


> unfortunantly, the VA side decided to "contain" the ponies because of the likelyhood of them getting hit, injuring visitors, getting fed something dangerous by people or people trying to "ride" them (yes, all the above happened.. ) If you take a boat tour, you can sometimes see the bands,,and there is a bus tour that Ive heard is VERY good for seeing the ponies. We took the boat tour and saw ponies.
> 
> the maryland side is different, the ponies are loose and its unfortunantly not uncommon for them to get hit by cars.... some also take fun in harassing campers. my Chincoteague filly's great grandsire was one of the few ponies who crossed the fence to the VA side..after numerous attempts to keep him on the maryland side, they let the FD keep him. "Hot Air Balloon" Ive been told had a reputation of ransacking camps and tearing down tents that he came across..
> 
> the selective breeding done on the VA side has improved the breed..the maryland side lacks alot of the "nicer" traits in their animals that the VA side has worked hard to keep in the herds. the addition of mustang, arab and QH blood have created some very nice animals on the VA side.


We had the opportunity to see several of the ponies on the island. They were in a roadside corral where you could see the mares and their young. Then on one of the observation decks you could see a couple of mares and their young as well, but they were far off in the distance. We walked the trail, thinking the horses were running loose and we walked quietly hoping to round the bend and see them. The trail ended in the observation deck and that's when we saw the fence and realized it was more of a zoo park then just everything running amuck. 

I wondered how much blood they imported to the island because a stable we visited claimed all their ponies had come from the island. But just looking at the ponies they had on display, you could see such a wide variance, it made me wonder. From your typical short and chubby ponies to one animal that was probably pushing 15 hands and had the build of a arabian crossbreed.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

In the late 60's or early 70's several Arabian breeders donated colts to the government both to improve the ponies and several groups of "wild horses" in the west. I believe some other breeds were also donated, the concern was the horses were getting too inbred.
I have talked to several men who worked for the Army Remount program and when they closed it they did turn hundreds of horses lose that they couldn't sell. That combinded with all the horses turned out when homesteaders decided to leave makes up most of the "wild mustangs" in many herds.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

wolffeathers said:


> We had the opportunity to see several of the ponies on the island. They were in a roadside corral where you could see the mares and their young. Then on one of the observation decks you could see a couple of mares and their young as well, but they were far off in the distance. We walked the trail, thinking the horses were running loose and we walked quietly hoping to round the bend and see them. The trail ended in the observation deck and that's when we saw the fence and realized it was more of a zoo park then just everything running amuck.
> 
> I wondered how much blood they imported to the island because a stable we visited claimed all their ponies had come from the island. But just looking at the ponies they had on display, you could see such a wide variance, it made me wonder. From your typical short and chubby ponies to one animal that was probably pushing 15 hands and had the build of a arabian crossbreed.



yes, I would bet you went to the Chincoteague Pony Centre then..and the bigger pony was probably Cowboy. he is one of the biggest ponies in the breed. did he rear on command during the pony show? he is trained to do that..talented guy. you can definantly see the difference in the conformation depending on their breeding. some have a very arab look to them, others look like modern mustangs..and still some look "spanishy" still..

the arab stallion released onto the island was Premierre and he was a registered arab. died after a year or two on the island..but sired foals and his descendants live on today.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

Molly Mckee said:


> In the late 60's or early 70's several Arabian breeders donated colts to the government both to improve the ponies and several groups of "wild horses" in the west. I believe some other breeds were also donated, the concern was the horses were getting too inbred.
> I have talked to several men who worked for the Army Remount program and when they closed it they did turn hundreds of horses lose that they couldn't sell. That combinded with all the horses turned out when homesteaders decided to leave makes up most of the "wild mustangs" in many herds.


exactly..very few are actually "spanish" in blood..the ones that are, at least from what Ive been told, are confined to certain areas and breeding farms now.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

spinandslide said:


> yes, I would bet you went to the Chincoteague Pony Centre then..and the bigger pony was probably Cowboy. he is one of the biggest ponies in the breed. did he rear on command during the pony show? he is trained to do that..talented guy. you can definantly see the difference in the conformation depending on their breeding. some have a very arab look to them, others look like modern mustangs..and still some look "spanishy" still..
> 
> the arab stallion released onto the island was Premierre and he was a registered arab. died after a year or two on the island..but sired foals and his descendants live on today.


:grin: You really know your ponies then. I am pretty sure that is where we went, it was a two story shop with I suppose stables in back for the pony show. We didn't stay for any of the pony shows, we just visited the ponies out front and browsed the merchandise. The pony Cowboy was very leggy and thin built, and I believe he was a black and white, if it was Cowboy we were thinking of. I'd give height estimations, but I suck at them. LOL

There was a particularly friendly pony in the paddock closest to the store, cute as a button and would stand there and crane his head and neck over the fence to be petted. He was a little ham for the camera too, we took pictures with our phones. The other ponies were more interested if we approached the feed bucket, but other than that, were a little more burned out on the tourism, I suppose. Usually not a huge fan of ponies, but I would have snatched that little friendly little gelding up in a heartbeat, and hubby knew it because he gave me 'the look' and asked what in the world I would possibly do with one.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

wolffeathers said:


> :grin: You really know your ponies then. I am pretty sure that is where we went, it was a two story shop with I suppose stables in back for the pony show. We didn't stay for any of the pony shows, we just visited the ponies out front and browsed the merchandise. The pony Cowboy was very leggy and thin built, and I believe he was a black and white, if it was Cowboy we were thinking of. I'd give height estimations, but I suck at them. LOL
> 
> There was a particularly friendly pony in the paddock closest to the store, cute as a button and would stand there and crane his head and neck over the fence to be petted. He was a little ham for the camera too, we took pictures with our phones. The other ponies were more interested if we approached the feed bucket, but other than that, were a little more burned out on the tourism, I suppose. Usually not a huge fan of ponies, but I would have snatched that little friendly little gelding up in a heartbeat, and hubby knew it because he gave me 'the look' and asked what in the world I would possibly do with one.



Yes, pony centre..

hmm, no, Cowboy is a solid chestnut..was it definantly a gelding? there is a black and white mare who is very "refined" looking and kind of tall..hang on, Ill post afew pics (not sure when you were there.)



















depending on when you were there, both of the above (mares) could have been kinda leggy, if they were younger..the CP's seem to be alittle on the leggy side when they are younger. the palomino in the front is a younger guy..very leggy









yes, the whole attitude of alot of them was "ugh, more people?" the little paly gelding loved attention, but his cousin, the paly mare behind him loved to boss him around..LOL


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