# Spending that saved precious metal



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Assuming you have accumulate some for emergency needs, how do you think is can be used in an emergency? You don't take it into stores now. So how do you think it will be exchanged for goods? Do you negotiate with individuals? Do you go to a pawn shop to exhange for specie?


----------



## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Pawn shops are a rip off. Yes, we'd have to neg. with people we know. You'd be supprised how much gold I have bought at garage sales that people sold as junk metal. One would have to know their "stuff" to not get ripped off, so better to barter with those you know. We do know someone with a store/fuel station we could barter with.


----------



## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

where I want to said:


> Assuming you have accumulate some for emergency needs, how do you think is can be used in an emergency? You don't take it into stores now. So how do you think it will be exchanged for goods? Do you negotiate with individuals? Do you go to a pawn shop to exhange for specie?


Lots just have what is called junk silver much easier to deal with . :hobbyhors
And yes I would take all I could get today if I had something to sell. This is harder to counterfeit too :shrug:


----------



## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

In a natural disaster currency on hand would be the most useful. Our outlook on PMs is mainly focused as insurance against economic collapse, or even the possibility of the electrical grid going down for an extended period. In either case I believe we'd become a barter economy for at least an extended period of time. Our preference is toward junk silver, as it's a commonly known commodity vs collector coins or various qualities of gold/silver jewelry. Very few people have the scales and knowledge to properly value a few links from a chain. Although you can carry more value in less volume with gold than silver, small purchases would present a problem if the seller doesn't have satisfactory change for gold.

The best source we've found for silver are stores that buy PMs, including stores that specialize in it, pawn shops, some jewelers. Our medium size town of Springfield MO has 4 stores that specialize in PMs. Junk silver is usually sold by face value of the coin times a fluctuating number, which is determined by that day's spot prices and your negotiating skills. Right now most junk silver should be priced at about 13 times face value. A 1964 dime would be worth $1.30. Most places don't document your purchases, as opposed to buying online from the big outfits. Personally, I prefer the anonymity of dealing locally in cash. The dealers are making money both in purchasing and selling. If you were to take the silver you'd just bought at X13 to another dealer to sell, he'd probably offer you X9 for it. Remember, it's insurance, not a get rich quick investment.

The beauty of PMs is both their portability and general acceptance. If you had an overage of chickens, and wanted to trade some for a feeder pig, you'd have to find a pig farmer who wanted chickens. With PMs you could trade some silver for a pig, and the pig farmer can take that silver to his neighbor who has an overage of cooking oil, etc, etc, etc. It's a lot better than hauling 20 chickens all over the place trying to find a guy with a pig who wanted them.

Of course, it's all academic for us. We lost all our PMs and guns/ammunition in a freak boating accident months ago.


----------



## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

It is my thinking that I'd prefer to accumulate the bulk of my PM collection AFTER a collapse. In the mean time I prefer to gather things I can profit on now, and more so then. The catch being space savings when buying Gold and silver vs. barter items for sale and trade.

An example I have... Cast iron cookware. I will purchase nearly anything useful at garage sales and the like on the cheap. Generally I can sell this stuff once it's cleaned up for a small profit now, or I can (and often do) put it out in the shed. What was a dollar today at a yard sale will be worth an ounce of silver easily in an extended grid down/economic collapse situation later. I mean, how long do you think those cheap Wal Mart pans will last?


----------



## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

InvalidID said:


> It is my thinking that I'd prefer to accumulate the bulk of my PM collection AFTER a collapse. In the mean time I prefer to gather things I can profit on now, and more so then. The catch being space savings when buying Gold and silver vs. barter items for sale and trade.
> 
> An example I have... Cast iron cookware. I will purchase nearly anything useful at garage sales and the like on the cheap. Generally I can sell this stuff once it's cleaned up for a small profit now, or I can (and often do) put it out in the shed. What was a dollar today at a yard sale will be worth an ounce of silver easily in an extended grid down/economic collapse situation later. I mean, how long do you think those cheap Wal Mart pans will last?


From what I have found ,now days if it don't come in a box and is nukable most would starve before knew how to operate that pan anyway .:hobbyhors


----------



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

A good solution is maintaining some precious metal jewelry in good condition in your metal reserve as jewelry has both scrap precious metal and inflated ascetic fashion value.

A few years ago I decided to use some of my limited gold scrap/ ascetic fashion jewelry to finance a home improvement. Instead of selling an ounce of scrap for market minus 10 to 15 percent, I sold a cocktail ring I had bought at an estate sale with scrap value of less than $100 for $450 fashion value to cover the repair costs I had done and to put some fiat currency in my pocket also.


----------



## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Oklahoma passed a law that gold and silver are money. They can be used to pay debts, taxes, etc. Hopefully that will make it easier to use pm's when greenbacks go south.


----------



## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Sawmill Jim said:


> From what I have found ,now days if it don't come in a box and is nukable most would starve before knew how to operate that pan anyway .:hobbyhors


Those folks won't survive the collapse anyway, so not really my target market...


----------



## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Spinner said:


> Oklahoma passed a law that gold and silver are money. They can be used to pay debts, taxes, etc. Hopefully that will make it easier to use pm's when greenbacks go south.


 Would you want to give the government your PMs though? I mean, whatever it's worth you could likely give them useless dollars and keep the gold right?


----------



## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

InvalidID said:


> Would you want to give the government your PMs though? I mean, whatever it's worth you could likely give them useless dollars and keep the gold right?


The option might come in handy for paying property taxes when the dollar is history. Of course, in a case of hyper inflation any County Commissioner who voted to increase property taxes to match inflation would find himself on the end of a short rope.


----------



## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

InvalidID said:


> Would you want to give the government your PMs though? I mean, whatever it's worth you could likely give them useless dollars and keep the gold right?


OT hit the nail on the head. Property taxes has to be paid or they take your home. In the 1930's people lost their land because they couldn't pay the property tax, some as little as $5. for 80 or 100 acres.


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

InvalidID said:


> It is my thinking that I'd prefer to accumulate the bulk of my PM collection AFTER a collapse. In the mean time I prefer to gather things I can profit on now, and more so then. The catch being space savings when buying Gold and silver vs. barter items for sale and trade.
> 
> An example I have... Cast iron cookware. I will purchase nearly anything useful at garage sales and the like on the cheap. Generally I can sell this stuff once it's cleaned up for a small profit now, or I can (and often do) put it out in the shed. What was a dollar today at a yard sale will be worth an ounce of silver easily in an extended grid down/economic collapse situation later. I mean, how long do you think those cheap Wal Mart pans will last?


1. There are very few people around with silver or gold now. And many of those that do have some are prepped type folks that won't need a cast iron pan.....they already have a slew of them.

2. If it gets bad enough that the greenback is gone, a huge percentage of the population will go with it, having zero means to continue to eat, drink, and be merry. Those cheap Walmart pans will far outlast the folks with nothing to put in them.


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Spinner said:


> Oklahoma passed a law that gold and silver are money. They can be used to pay debts, taxes, etc. Hopefully that will make it easier to use pm's when greenbacks go south.


The States don't need to pass such laws (several have). What they NEED to do is what the US Constitution says: Pay State debts in gold and silver only. Their employees, their vendors, their pensioners, etc.

When they start doing that, I'll be convinced they are serious about gold and silver.

Art1 Sec10:

*No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; 
*


----------



## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

TnAndy said:


> 1. There are very few people around with silver or gold now. And many of those that do have some are prepped type folks that won't need a cast iron pan.....they already have a slew of them.
> 
> 2. If it gets bad enough that the greenback is gone, a huge percentage of the population will go with it, having zero means to continue to eat, drink, and be merry. Those cheap Walmart pans will far outlast the folks with nothing to put in them.


 Maybe I'm an optimist but I've lived through a few natural disasters and more people than you would think did pretty well. They weren't preppers, just a bunch of people that worked together to get things done. Most of the state of Maine comes to mind, north of Portland that is.

I tend to think humans are more resilient than most of we prepper types generally believe. Once those groups of people form those smaller 'tribes' they'll want to trade. They'll need simple things like pans and such. They'll also need knowledge.

Just my take of course. But looking at the USSR, or Europe during WWII, I tend to think we'll see more than a few survivors.


----------



## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Spinner said:


> OT hit the nail on the head. Property taxes has to be paid or they take your home. In the 1930's people lost their land because they couldn't pay the property tax, some as little as $5. for 80 or 100 acres.


 I agree, but I'm thinking if you had gold and silver it might be better to trade it for some useless cash to pay taxes with. I guess it would depend on the exchange rate.


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

InvalidID said:


> Maybe I'm an optimist .....


You definitely are ! 

The few natural disasters here have been localized events....food, water, fuel, money, help, etc, were all available from not far down the road, which is why they were not that devastating. (unless, of course, it was your house that got blown away). 

Events that happened in WW2 bear little resemblance to what a full scale collapse here would look like....because most of those folks lived a much more simple life...there wasn't near as far to fall sorta thing. And there will be pockets of that here...like you said, Maine north of Portland. 

But even WW2 was a 'local' event. Germany was clearly devastated....but the US Army was right there handing out food, and helping to rebuild almost immediately after blowing it up. France, England, Switzerland....those places you would have to look a bit to even tell something went on.

Now look around the US today....as Sawmill Jim said, the majority of our population are a people who have never experienced devastation on a national or world scale. These are folks who think food comes from a grocery store or the kitchen of a restaurant.....I mean, if you really pin them down, they know it doesn't....but they haven't a clue how to obtain any past those points. 

IF the US experiences a currency collapse, the world will probably be in the same boat....help ain't coming over the rise. The die off in this country will be quite high.


----------



## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

IF we had any, I'd be using it to give the local government....to cover property taxes. What good is food, guns, etc if they come in and take your land away for not paying your taxes (I'm avoiding the soap box I desperately want to get on about being taxed for "my" land). 
For "goods" I'll barter with what ever else I have.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

*IF*...
You were forsighted enough to collect 'Coin' metals before the price on the 'Scrap Weight' went way up,
Then you have two choices,

1. Sell as 'Scrap'.
Most coins will only bring scrap weight price.
Most coins are common coins, and unless you have something REALLY RARE, it's just scrap metal.

2. Clean and package the coins, 
Try to sell them at flea markets for well above scrap price.
This is a time and effort investment, consider that...

--------------

What no one is telling you when they rant and rave about 'End Of The Economy',
AND they say to stockpile metals is,

Silver has limited uses,
Some medicinal, some as a source for base metals for things like silverware.

Silver has a mechanical/electrical use as solder.

The need for these base metals will be small, so you won't have to have a ton of these silver coins around...
It's just something else you are putting value on that others won't share the same value when things like food and fuel are in short supply...
It's also something you have to provide security for, and worry about...

-----------

In the event of SHORTAGES,
What you have on hand will be worth more, and easier to trade for the things you want/need.

Stockpiles of electrical wiring, plumbing pipes and fittings, the stuff you use in daily life, like toilet paper, salt, sugar, ect. will be worth far more than 'Coins'...

A well stocked pantry that will support you and give you trading material,
OR,
A well stocked shop, either electrical, plumbing, welding, ect. will be worth far more than any 'Junk Silver' or coin scrap...

A 'Junk Yard' would be ideal!
Nothing like having hydraulic, electrical, plumbing, and a TON of spare parts at hand for trading material!

A guy not too long ago that worked in a paper mill said he had 250,000 rolls of 'Seconds' the factory had thrown out.
Can you imagine what 250,000 rolls of toilet paper, paper towels, blank news print would be worth in a barter situation?

I bought 70 cans of welding rods at auction, paid $65 for them...
Common rods, still sealed up, just because the cans were 'Old' and dirty, no one want to inventory the rods, so I picked them up.
Most were VERY expensive high nickel content rods which make VERY nice welds, and even weld cast iron.
If I'd purchased them new it would have cost me over two dollars a rod...

Give me a couple of batteries and some jumper cables, a solar panel to recharge the batteries, and those rods, and there isn't much of anything I can't weld...
That's something to trade with right there!

Your 'Coin Silver' or whatever you have, would be MUCH better spent on solar panels, charge controllers, inverters.
All that stuff can be used NOW, and it can be stored for an emergency without going 'Bad' over time.


----------



## Oldshep (Mar 28, 2015)

I see the greatest use for my precious metals as paying my property taxes in a hyper-inflationary scenario. Alot of people are thinking in terms of "no government" so they aren't concerned about property taxes if TSHTF. I see it quite a bit differently. Having a government break down and not having to pay taxes isn't what you need to be worried about.

When TSHTF those in power are going to do what ever it takes to stay there, and that may mean looting you of everything, including your land. The most obvious way to extort money from you, as a land holder, is through the property tax. All of our homes, farms and homesteads have a huge string attached. That is no accident.

If TSHTF in some economic collapse, such as dedollarization ( already in the works) we will likely face a huge plunge in the value of the dollar. The cost of everything, including public services, will skyrocket and large tax increases will follow. If you think the government is going to bite the bullet and go bankrupt while you get to keep your property then you don't know history.

In times of economic upheaval, gold/silver tend to increase. Now it might be that in such a scenario government will eventually collapse, but before it does it will do everything in its power to prevent it. Many will lose their homes long before we reach any kind of lawless, tax free, post-civilized scenario.


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Yep.....that is what initially attracted me to silver. 

Many many properties were lost to county tax man during the last depression for lack of a relatively small amount of cash money. They had gardens, chickens, water, farm equipment, etc.....none of which the tax man would take in lieu of cash. So a few thousand dollars of real coin silver that could be paid directly to the tax man (worse case), or exchanged for a LOT more of whatever paper-of-the-day is floating around down the road (best case), and paid to the tax man might just save your property.




Oldshep said:


> In times of economic upheaval, gold/silver tend to increase. Now it might be that in such a scenario government will eventually collapse, but before it does it will do everything in its power to prevent it. * Many will lose their homes long before we reach any kind of lawless, tax free, post-civilized scenario.*



Exactly. Many think some SHTF thing will happen overnight. It might.....one would be prudent to have as much food, and real goods put away as they can stand....both for personal use, and for barter. If nothing else, the built in inflation of debt based paper money will let you escape the 'inflation tax' of paying later.
*
But the ODDS ARE MUCH GREATER we'll continue this long, slow decline, just like we have for the last 100 years.*

100 years ago, you could walk into any bank, and exchange ONE $20 paper bill for ONE $20 gold coin.

Today, if you can find a local place (banks won't) to swap your paper for that same $20 gold coin, (or it's equal) you'll need about 60 of those $20 paper notes to do the trade.


----------



## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

It still happens. The next County over is having a tax sale of a dozen or so properties. Some were lost for as little as $400. Which is the starting bid price. If I had time to do a title search on some of those places and go look at them I might bid on a few.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

OK, I see paying 'Taxes' with junk silver coins.
Face value, you are going to need a LOT of coins!
Since there just are NOT any $20 gold pieces around,
A one ounce gold coin has a face value of $1 US, and will cost you spot price to buy (About $1,200 US) to buy,
It doesn't seem like a good deal for a 1,200 to 1 devaluation just to have 'Gold Coin' on hand...

Now, having a resource or skill that would be in demand would rake in the 'Currency' of the realm to pay those 'Taxes' with...
Doesn't matter what the 'Economy' is doing, people are going to pay for water, food, power, services, medical care, ect,

This generates income in the coin of the realm...

The 'Great Depression', Europe after WWI & WWII should show you some basic truths...
Gold, silver, diamonds, ect. are limited, finite, and when depleted you starve.

Basic skills, services and production items sustained most of the population when the rest had nothing...
Stock animals provided meat, 
Farmers produced farm products, which sustained them,
Tradesmen went to work restoring basic services and supported their families,
My grandparents did all of the above, farming, stock animals, and black smithing and a small timber operation/saw mill kept them both fed and generated income.
You couldn't say the same for many 'Rich' families in the area, bankers, investors that were selling family jewelry for a fraction of a cent on the dollar for food...

Your 'Coins' or scrap jewelry will never be worth more than spot/salvage price, and unless you have enough that some smelter/recycler will deal with you directly,
You are going to get a lot less than spot price since middle men always take a big cut...

AND,
You are thinking 'Tactically', what you will do under 'Attack' or under the worst possible situation...

If you think Strategically, instead of tactically, 
It makes MUCH more sense to put that stock pile of you can't eat or do anything productive with into something that actually PRODUCES SOMETHING YOU CAN USE NOW, as well as giving you a huge advantage in the event the worst happens...

Even small scale renewable power and small scale machinery will give you refridiration, meat & grain processing capabilities.
This would be invaluable with nothing more than some RE power and a 'Mix Master' with grain and meat grinding attachments.
Add an oven/smoker and you have a bakery & meat preserving business...
One that works every day the sun shines or the water flows or the wind blows.

Add in a couple of batteries, some battery powered tools, and you have a manufacturing/repair business.
No matter what happens, people will need things made out of wood & metal,
And with power tools you can do it cheaper/faster than the guys trying to do it by hand...
You save money in the short term IMMEDATELY by making part or all your own power,
You save even more by being able to do repairs yourself around your own place,
And you make a little coin by doing small jobs for the neighbors,

And if the 'Worst' ever happens,
You are the only game in town!
You have power, tools and experience!
You are an up and running, income generating business in spite of the curcumstances!

MUCH better to invest in the things you CAN CONTROL,
Than to 'Stockpile' stuff you can't use now, and in the future,
For something that most likely will never happen.


----------



## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

terri9630 said:


> It still happens. The next County over is having a tax sale of a dozen or so properties. Some were lost for as little as $400. Which is the starting bid price. If I had time to do a title search on some of those places and go look at them I might bid on a few.


Dh and I bought 3 lake acess fully wooded for 50. each lot.


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

JeepHammer said:


> OK, I see paying 'Taxes' with junk silver coins.
> Face value, you are going to need a LOT of coins!
> Since there just are NOT any $20 gold pieces around,
> *A one ounce gold coin has a face value of $1 US*, and will cost you spot price to buy (About $1,200 US) to buy,



Come on now....if you're gonna talk precious metals down, you might want to actually learn a bit about them. Note the face value on current US eagles:










Though your point is taken......paying 1106 Federal Reserve Notes and exchanging it for a 50 buck tax bill would suck.

However, I don't think anyone WOULD do that. What I think they would do it exchange the gold coin for something close to spot, then take the paper to the tax office and pay their taxes.



JeepHammer said:


> If you think Strategically, instead of tactically,
> It makes MUCH more sense to put that stock pile of you can't eat or do anything productive with into something that actually PRODUCES SOMETHING YOU CAN USE NOW, as well as giving you a huge advantage in the event the worst happens...
> 
> Even small scale renewable power and small scale machinery will give you refridiration, meat & grain processing capabilities.
> ...


And so WHAT would you advise if one is already doing this ? Already has their power system in place (and backup electronics in a Faraday cage). Already has food production in place. Already has or does every single thing you have listed.

Suppose they end up with extra FRN (federal reserve notes).....should they put them in a bank....and watch them depreciate year after year ? Or should they put them in some real money ?


----------



## Oldshep (Mar 28, 2015)

I would'nt expect to pay my tax bill, DIRECTLY in gold coins based on their stamped face value. LOL. If the price of gold and silver go up that means there's a demand and where there's a demand there's a market and plenty of people willing to get between you and another buyer ( they're called brokers ).

The whole world isnt likely to vanish overnight. Knowing how to do repairs and having batteries and tools is great but if they come and take your house away to auction because you couldnt pay the tax man then it was all a waste.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

So, you guys believe the entire economy will collapse, making the current currency worthless,
But you also believe there will be brokers operating that will pay you anything close to 'Spot' price when there is no stock exchange operating?

And what would that 'Broker' pay you with?
Since federal reserve notes, by your own writings, will be worthless...

Now, I'm a middle aged farm boy that spent 16 years in the Marine Corps,
More than 15 years getting myself situated so I'm as self sustainable,
But I'm smart enough to know you can't have it both ways.

I've been in combat zones where a total collapse has taken place.
A large diamond ring traded for a MRE,
Pockets full of gold/silver traded for a $1.50 worth of antibiotics.

The guys that were trading food for valuables were gangsters, and 'Spot' price wasn't discussed...

Simple farm folk that weren't murdered because of their religon ate simply because they were partly or fully sustainable...
Any excess they traded for things they didn't produce themselves.

Now, since the economy is questionable for you (running strong for everyone else),
It would be a good idea to produce SOMETHING.
Cash in hand today, reducing your debt load and allowing you to become more self sustainable,
Or you can hoard something that doesn't serve you at all,
You have to serve it, provide it with security...

I have spent 15 years, starting out not so organized and falling for the same predictions of gloom, doom, economy collapse, ect...
After about 50 years of that crap it gets old, REAL OLD....

Do what you want, its your money and time.
Mine is better spent on upgrading to becoming as self sustainable as possible,
Picking up things I can't produce easily along the way...

One year its a few more sola panels, one year it was a second deep well,
Another year it was a larger battery bank, another year it was a bigger inverter putting he smaller one on the shelf as a back up...
One year it was a shipping container stuffed under ground to increase my dry/cold storage,
Another year it was solar thermal panels to produce hot water...

I've got about 5 years of food, all kinds since I rotate crops in the garden,
I also sell produce for cash money...
Again, all I can eat, making a tidy bit of money from the excess.

Same with my shop, welding, machining, even some metal casting.
Buying up stuff like extra cutting tools, welding rods when they are cheap.

I'm pretty well set up, that's why I recommend this.
If I can do it as broken up/disabled as I am, then anyone can do it.


----------



## Oldshep (Mar 28, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> So, you guys believe the entire economy will collapse, making the current currency worthless,
> But you also believe there will be brokers operating that will pay you anything close to 'Spot' price when there is no stock exchange operating?
> 
> And what would that 'Broker' pay you with?
> ...





> So, you guys believe the entire economy will collapse, making the current currency worthless,
> But you also believe there will be brokers operating that will pay you anything close to 'Spot' price when there is no stock exchange operating?


No we dont all believe the entire economy will collapse "making the current currency worthless", lol. IF it does, it would be pretty silly to expect it to all go away at once...government, markets, buying and selling...all gone in the blink of an eye, leaving you to live on your own, tax free. If that were to happen, then I am about as prepared as anybody can be already. I'm a farmer.

If we pay attention to history, we know that alot of families lost their farms for taxes during the previous great depression. Their problem wasn't producing food and fending off bandits, it was paying the government ( which not only was still there, but EXPANDED massively ).



> I have spent 15 years, starting out not so organized and falling for the same predictions of gloom, doom, economy collapse, ect...
> After about 50 years of that crap it gets old, REAL OLD....


So your not falling for the predictions of doom, gloom and economic collapse predictions but you have 5 years worth of food saved up, buying up extra tools and solar panels?? Tell me, if the economy takes a serious downturn, heavy inflation hits, you lose your job, and the government triples your property tax..where will you put all those things you've been hoarding? How will you use them?

If I were in your shoes, with all those things but no precious metals, I'd be concerned that I'd lose my farm long before the economy collapsed totally.


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

JeepHammer said:


> So, you guys believe the entire economy will collapse, making the current currency worthless,


Nope....never said that.

COULD it happen ? Sure....if they keep messing around with debt, derivatives, currencies, and international money wars....yeah, it COULD happen for sure. 

That's why I am (and have been for 30 years) working on being as self sufficient as possible....to minimize the damage from such an event (or a solar flare, or a nuke war because some idiot with a button decided to push it)


But I've ALWAYS said the *MORE LIKELY* situation is a continuation of just what we've had for 100 years....a long, slow, depreciation of our money, by design at the behest of the bankers. And while being as self sufficient as possible sure doesn't hurt.....it would be silly to lose the farm to a tax bill....or lack of ability to go to Walgreens and BUY (they don't take chickens) a bottle of medicine.....or anyone of a hundred other things that money seems to be fairly useful for.

And if you're gonna SAVE MONEY for your old age....which I think is a good plan.....you'd best not be saving it in a depreciating paper currency that was designed from day 1 to enrich bankers at the expense of the public forced to use it.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Truth is that in a collapse, gold's value will drop precipitously. But it will still have value. It will find people willing to exchange something for it.
It has the same position it has historically. It is easily transported where a buried shipping container is not. 
Gold accumulation may be thought of as an investment which gains or loses like any other investment. But it has another place as a reserve value to be used if needed.
I remember a story on Argentina's economic collapse. One person interviewed was a pawn shop owner whose display cases were filled with gold jewelery that had been exchanged at fire sales prices. The implication was that gold was not worth much in a crisis. 
But I remember thinking that at least those sellers had gold to exchange for something they needed at that point. It was not really relevant that they sold it at less than they paid during the good times. They had something to exchange. 
Not that other things more practical wouldn't have had a better return. But those more practical things have storage, longevity and transport problems, not to mention finding someone with something to exchange who actually needs what you have to offer. It is one more thing offering flexiblity.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I can't tell if you few are being intentionally obtuse,
Or if you really don't get it...

I'm not 'Hording' anything.
I rotate what's in the garden, it might take 5 years before I plant something again, so I have 4 or 5 years worth of what I like...
Its just a well stocked pantry that got out of hand on some items.
Rather than going to waste when something produced way more than I expected.

As for 'Hording' cutting tools, welding rods, ect.
I buy up stock at pennies on the dollar, and use it up in rotation.
Since my little welding/machine shop makes a steady income, I'm simply reducing overhead currently, and having a steady supply of what I need when the prices shoot way up.
Panic buying of gold, silver, platinum also spilled over into copper, nickel, ect. and that jacked up everything to include welding rods & cutting tools.

The solar power saves me money every day the sun comes up,
Which at last count, was every day any of us have been alive...
Its also in a small way keeping my breathing air, food growing soil and drinking water a smidge cleaner.

'Hording' makes you serve it,
While smart investments serve you.
Most people seem to overlook that.

As long as the sun comes up, my investments produce.
As long as I have tools and power I can earn an income.
As long as I have a producing garden, I eat, and make an income.
Its that simple, the basics never change...

Now, for a few more facts that will be ignored,
Farmers lost land during the Great Depression because of the drought/dust bowl.
The land was simply not able to produce anything.
If the land produced, it wouldn't have been lost in most cases...

Homes were lost because of high debt load and lost jobs.
Little or no debt load and you were much less likely to loose your home.
SO,
Congress enacted laws to keep the same thing from happening again during the Great Depression,
Ronald Reagan came along and deregulated banking, so we went through the same thing again... Politicians/Bankers never learn since its not their homes/farms being lost.

*IF* to side step the huge food processing industry, you can make a tidy profit,
The profit normally made by the huge corporations... Screwing the producers...

The lesson is font be lazy.
If you are lazy, expect to dump your production all in one place for a resuced rate,
You loose the profits to the middle men.

If you are lazy around the farm or homestead, you spend much more time and money chasing what fell apart than doing maintinance on a schedule.

If you are lazy and don't invest CURRENTLY, money and time/labor, you loose the potential profits that investment will bring...

Don't be lazy or self indulgent, collecting things you have to serve,
Instead invest in things that serve you...


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Nonsense- people understand exactly what you are saying. They just don't think it is enough. 
I talked to one guy who lost his property because he severely broke his leg. He was not lazy but spent two years unable to maintain his normally self sufficient life. Many things can interfere with that ability and accumulating resources that can tide a person over is reasonable. To think that somehow everyone will be exempt from misfortune is lacking imagination.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

OK, you are probably right.
I've made my point.

The 'Fans' (Fanatics) of scrap gold/silver will continue to stockpile,
Maybe someone will get the idea and divest themselves of something that doesn't serve them, maybe not.

The valuable metals that accumulated around here got sold when the price was high,
Bought what I could use, actually got a inverter buss rack that runs inverters in parellel to spread the load, and provide redundant back up,
also got solar thermal panels for hot water.

They have gold/silver to sit on that has devalued by over 50%,
I have hot water every day and redundant power back up that is more efficient with my solar panels... Every day...
While they wait for the price to come back up to what they paid for my 'Scrap'.

The evacuated tube hot water panels have reduced my propane consumption by 50%, so I'm still reaping profit from the deal, while they are waiting for the next big media push to buy gold/silver, copper, ect.

Do what you want, go along with the media/false markets,
or have something actual/sustainable that works for you every day.
The choice is yours,


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

You keep acting like it is an Either/Or. It is not for everyone.

Here's my solar hot water, located on my year round food producing house.










Here's my 11kw solar power system (built over the course of several years) that not only produces all we use, but we have a $600 credit currently with the power company.
(And yes, it is grid tied, but has off grid ability with the flip of a switch)










Here's my wood/mechanic/welding shop:










Those logs ? Ready to go to my sawmill.










Lumber off that went to lots of projects around here, including furniture, cabinets, and 3 rental houses I built. (and I mean did 95% of the labor) Here's one:











NOT pictured is a wheelbarrow load of precious metals I also managed to accumulate along the way.

So you can keep on posting about what you're doing instead of holding metals.....and I'll bet I can match you one on one right down the line...and then some. 

But you ought to understand that it is NOT an 'either/or' for everybody, and quit acting like it is.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

GOOD BUILD!
I tried a sawmill, no longer capable of the manual labor required.
I'm better at metal anyway.

RENTALS! What a pain in the butt!
I had several rentals, but the local renters are distructive and it took up too much time.
Upscale rentals like yours don't fly around here. Homes are just too cheap.

I didn't say I don't save metals, not just gold/silver unless it falls into my lap.
I don't overlook copper, aluminum, even old catalytic converters for the platinum.
I just don't pretend I'm going to pay taxes in a breakdown where paper money is 'Worthless'....

Accumulate, not 'Collect', it shows up, I throw it in the scrap bin,
When the price goes up, sell... Buy something that takes the load off YOU.
Hording misses oppertunities waiting for 'The Big One'...

Evacuated solar thermal tube panels are a gift!
I built in radiant floor heat ('Boiler'), and it turns out the tubes provide home heat about 65% of the time without firing the boiler.
Didn't anticipate that, I was going to pre-heat boiler water, but it turns out the panels are enough most of the time without firing the boiler.

I'm wondering if a direct heat exchanger would make it more efficient without going through the boiler plumbing?


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

TnAndy to me is am example of someone who sees the whole picture. 

He is a thinker and a man of action.


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Probably better planning than I did in the beginning, but very similar to what I've done over the past 15-20 years.
He's grid intertied, I'm not. The power company wanted $118,000 to run power back to my land, and another $15,000 for the transformer I'd own and have to replace on the property.

Solar and batteries were MUCH cheaper, so I'm not grid intertied.

I have clean water wells, a lake that is mostly clean (farm chemicals you get in any surface water),
Because the water company wouldn't even discuss hooking me up to a water line, even if I ran the line out to the main...

I have a green house, large gardens, and crops.
Everything produces food/income.
Clean food is a big deal for me, and with the prices people are willing to pay for the same, its a big deal for more than just me.

Like Andy, have a home business that cuts my costs, produces an income.
His is wood, mine is metal, both are compeditive now, making a profit or we would both be doing something that did produce a profit.
I don't have timber reserves, and sawmill work is harder manual labor than I can sometimes do.
Welding, machining, mechanical repairs in a shop is something I can phsyically do.
Both will be MANDATORY businesses in the event of a depression.
The economic down turn just 8 years ago saw my business have more work than I could do...
People tend to repair rather than buy new when money is tight.

I also work off the homestead, a 'Paycheck' job...
I don't know how much longer I'll be able to do both, but as long as the old beat up body lasts, I'll do both.

I know that having two or three jobs is out of 'Style', but if you don't give yourself to the sofa and keep busy, this is still America and you will get ahead of where you were.
Make money, control spending, invest in something that you can control that makes money and you can't help but better your position.

I've been told over and over again that NOT having credit cards, borrowing on a big fancy house is a good way to have 'Nothing',
I still don't believe it.
The credit people OWN everything you have on credit,
You don't own it unless it's bought and paid for.

IF it doesn't produce for you or serve you,
You serve it, and continue to pay for it, insurance, storage, ect.
If it works, it stays, if it doesn't work, it doesn't stay since it doesn't work...
No mystery to it, just good old American work ethic that is 'Old Fasioned' these days...


----------



## Oldshep (Mar 28, 2015)

TnAndy said:


> You keep acting like it is an Either/Or. It is not for everyone.
> .


Exactly. Gold is one small but important part of what I consider to be my over-all plan for security and self reliance. I dont have pics ( BTW excellent pics there Andy ), but on my farm you'll find cattle, sheep, hay fields, pasture, wells, gardens and all the infra-structure to maintain them---barns, equipment, tools, fencing, canning supplies etc. I own it all debt-free. And behind all of that is the knowledge and skill-sets to make it all work.

There's no magic bullet. I wouldnt just stock pile gold and consider myself immune from economic collapse. Likewise, I wouldn't just collect land and tools with no thought of holding onto them through the various possible phases of economic turmoil. "Preparedness" is a very broad and deep issue, there are alot of things to consider.


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I really like you guys. Practical solutions to forethought out possibilities. Something to aspire to for everyone.


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Oldshep said:


> Exactly. Gold is one small but important part of what I consider to be my over-all plan for security and self reliance. I dont have pics ( BTW excellent pics there Andy ), but on my farm you'll find cattle, sheep, hay fields, pasture, wells, gardens and all the infra-structure to maintain them---barns, equipment, tools, fencing, canning supplies etc. I own it all debt-free. And behind all of that is the knowledge and skill-sets to make it all work.
> 
> There's no magic bullet. I wouldn't just stock pile gold and consider myself immune from economic collapse. Likewise, I wouldn't just collect land and tools with no thought of holding onto them through the various possible phases of economic turmoil.* "Preparedness" is a very broad and deep issue, there are a lot of things to consider.*


Amen said the choir 

Mirrors my take on things to a T.

And funny how what we call "Preparedness" used to be called plain ole common sense.....which, as it turns out, AIN'T all that common.....ahahahaa


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

JeepHammer said:


> GOOD BUILD!
> 
> RENTALS! What a pain in the butt!
> I had several rentals, but the local renters are distructive and it took up too much time.
> Upscale rentals like yours don't fly around here. Homes are just too cheap.


They are a PITA....which is why I sold them.  That was the plan all along, though...built one, rolled the rent into building the next one, rolled both rents into building a third. I thought by building somewhat 'upscale' houses (at least by most rental standards), I'd avoid the problems of low end rentals. That was only partially true....turns out even renters that don't have money problems don't give a crap about your property either.

So, I changed the plan, and sold them earlier than I planned to....which as it turns out, was right at the peak of the market in 2005-06. Pure luck, I assure ya.

Kept the first one 7 years, then the guy that was renting it came to me and wanted to buy it (after renting it for 6 years @800/mo). He already paid me more in rent than I had in materials to build it...(and I'd bartered work for the lot)...so, I said....sure...$100k, and it's yours. He bought it.










Second one, built on 3 ac I'd bought back about 10years before. Guy had a trailer on it, it burned, and I ran into him at a gas station few years later. Asked him what he was gonna do with the land. He said "The IRS is on me bigtime....if you'll pay them the $10,000 I owe them, I'd sign over the land". So I did.

I split it in two pcs, and built this rental below. Cost me 35k to build the house (all my own timber for the framing), I kept it 3 years @1000/mo, so I nearly cleared my costs (less property taxes/insurance), and sold it for 165K.











Built the 3rd on the other half of the 3ac, had 45k in it, sold it for 155k after a year (after a year, it becomes capital gains...15%.....under a year, it's ordinary income 28% + 15.3% SS tax.....which is one BIG reason for renting a house versus selling a new house)












This was all about 2005-06 before the housing crash hit. Lucky call, but all of a sudden, (well, except for 10 years of planning and hard work...ahahahaa) I was flush with cash to do things around the farm, AND gold was 450, and silver was 6-7 bucks. Although we'd been working on the place since 1982 as time and money permitted, and there never seemed to be enough of either, now I had plenty of both....so things really started cooking on the home front. I did less and less public work (did carpentry/home improvements like windows/siding/soffit/sunrooms/etc), and more on our own place. Quit doing most all public work (unless it was to help a neighbor or really interested me) in 2010.


----------



## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

where I want to said:


> I really like you guys. Practical solutions to forethought out possibilities. Something to aspire to for everyone.


We guys aren't alone.....there are a fair number of people out there that plan their work, and work their plan. Jeep is one of them, he is simply farther back down the time line than some of us. With his brains, and work ethic, I have no doubt the time will come when all his projects are done, his larder is stocked, and he is looking at precious metals with a different eyeball...


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

NO KIDDING!
What I use up, cans, scrap wiring or plumbing, ect. goes in the 'Recycling' bins.
Steel 'Tin' cans make a wonderful underlayment for drives to keep your road bed from falling in,
Aluminum cans are money in the bank instead of bulk in the trash.

Someone dumped what must have been a pickup load of old computers on my property,
So with a little research I found out the circuit boards/processors had gold in them,
And the process used acids that I use for cleaning metal anyway, so I stripped the gold, copper, even re-purposed the cases.
Those cases are great for making little metal brackets out of without buying sheet metal.

I still have a collection of those little low voltage fans used in computers, they come in handy for a LOT of projects!
The heat sinks on those processors come in REAL HANDY for a lot of things if you 'Tinker', and if not, they recycle for cash.

Since I tinker with wind/water and other electronics constantly, those rectifiers and heat sinks come in REAL handy!

I try not to waste anything, something will come in handy in the strangest places!


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

There was a large grain processing company looking to build an alcohol plant in the area, they got the air quality permit, and no one spends 14 million on land, permits and doesn't build.
I had been looking at rentals, so when the air quality permit came through, I bought and remodeled 11 properties...

Three bedrooms, remodeled everything, plumbing, wiring, roofs, siding, doors, windows, kitchens & bathrooms...
Two bedrooms with a 'Den' or 'Work Space', installed high speed computer wiring and line protection....

The engineers for the upcoming plant sucked them up like hotcakes!
The company was paying the bills, they didn't care what I carged for rent to keep the engineers happy...

That was good for about 6 years until the plant was up and running, then a couple of the engineers bought the houses they were renting, the rest took off for the next project, and I was stuck with local renters that tore the crap out of everything and didn't like paying rent...

This put me right smack in the middle of the housing market collapse, I was in deep, big investments and little income... I'm SO GLAD I didn't have big loans on those rentals!

I finally sold all the rentals but one... But it was a challenge to get out from under them in a depressed housing economy and not loose money like crazy.

I can tell you some horror stories about renters!...
I won't put myself through that again...


----------



## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

When Gold/Silver shot through the roof (and every other metal) I was more than happy to sell, I was pouring the floor/walls for my house and had no idea how I was going to pay for the ceiling...
Not only did it pay for the ceiling, but the scrap (everything) also paid for an inverter upgrade (since I was soon moving in year around) I was going to need more power and hot water, so the evacuated tubes for hot water...

I was tried of living in a travel trailer! The home was the last thing to get built since it wasn't producing anything, just keeping me a dry spot to sleep...

Funny thing is, the guy that was so hot to purchase the gold/silver sat on it,
Now he's asked me to buy it back, at the same price he paid for it...
Well... NO! 
Not at half spot price he bought it for!

Now that my cash reserves are up some (harvest came in and I've had a couple of jobs that made more money than usual) I'd consider current spot price, but no way what he paid for it!


----------

