# Logging with horses



## ticklersgoats (Jan 2, 2006)

I have been doing some research on logging with horses. ( I am from a family of loggers and still log part time) I was wondering if anyone has any good books or websites with info on the subject? 

I am specifically trying to find some ideas on what people do with the logs once on the landing, as I can't picture in my head a good/easy way to stack them. 

Any and all info would be appreciated,

Thank you,


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

http://www.healingharvestforestfoundation.org/


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

There was a member here years ago, I think his handle was horselogger. This was around 2003 or so. He took a trip cross continent. He may still be around somewhere. His post may be archived.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

You can do something similar to this:


















or I've seen a boom set-up that is run by horse power similar to loading loose hay in a loft - done with pulleys. The boom was often what was used at camps to load rail-cars. The top pic probably more common for loading sleds in the woods. (BTW, if you are thinking that it looks like a good way to get killed, I think you are right! Those guys were skinny, light on their feet, and had good horses.)













Some resources would be: https://www.ruralheritage.com/new_rh_website/index_green.shtml

or books from Mischka Press: http://www.mischka.com/shop/

Bob Mischka not only takes a lot of modern photos at driving events and draft horse gatherings but goes out of his way to make available historical publications and photos of how things are/were done with horses. If you can get Bob on the phone, or somebody from the Rural Heritage office, they could point you at specific resources.

I see that you are from the U.P. If there is a Draft Horse Association anywhere near you (I'm sure in Wisconsin and VERY sure in Minnesota), you can still find oldtimers willing to bend your ear about how it is done and what you need to get set up. A lot of "draft horse" is now about pulling competitions, but try to find the old farmer/logger types. They are dying off fast.


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## ticklersgoats (Jan 2, 2006)

Thank you for the responses, I will look into the links. Alder, that does look a bit dangerous haha, I have seen both picture you posted but havnt been able to find any modern or more recent pictures, as you stated I know it is dying off so is hard to find someone still doing it. I do have some family that pull competitively in Wisconsin so they might know of someone around there. 

Thank you all again ,


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

We know a 77 year old man that still logs with horses every day. He's a tough old guy. 

There are advantages to using horses, especially with smaller or hilly acreage. Horses do less damage than skidders, and can get to places that are too small for one too.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

vicker said:


> There was a member here years ago, I think his handle was horselogger. This was around 2003 or so. He took a trip cross continent. He may still be around somewhere. His post may be archived.


He's on facebook: "Lee the Horselogger". He's been back and forth across the US several times but looks like he's run into some health issues.


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## jbo9 (Oct 30, 2012)

Rural Heritage the magazine recently had an article about a logger who went to horse power. They also have a video, dont know if it is the same person or not.
[ame]https://vimeo.com/129658669[/ame]
[ame]https://vimeo.com/122807305[/ame]
The second video was the one I was thinking of.

The draft animal power network is another group that has a lot of loggers, mostly from the northeast.
http://www.draftanimalpower.org

There are a surprising number of draft horse owners/teamsters who fill their winters with cutting lumber. Jason Rutledge is a bit of a promoter who might be able to help make some contacts.http://www.ridgewindsuffolks.com


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

That grapple trailer is quite the outfit, though must say I nearly hyperventilated watching the guy stand between the trailer and the forecart while running the thing.


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## TraderBob (Oct 21, 2010)

I used to log with horses up in the Rhinelander, WI area. We had our own truck to haul to the mill though so we just put them on the truck with the boom as we dragged them out.

Some days i miss it, other days i don't...that and pulling barbed wire fencing through the swamps.


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## PlowGirl (Nov 16, 2005)

Small farmers journal is also a great resource.


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## TheDairyEwe (Jul 1, 2015)

What I've seen in my experience is people have a ramp that they park the log next to, then they reposition the team on the other side and drag the log up the ramp, then drop it down on the other logs. The picture I attached is a bit overkill, but that's how they can do it with only the horses and a few extra hands. We log a little bit with the horses, but we've got skidsteers and grapple attachments so don't worry too much about wherever we put them.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Here's a guy doing it with a single ox.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTN_VtVaRRY&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

Pretty straightforward process.


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## reubenT (Feb 28, 2012)

When we moved to our location on the cumberland plateau in middle TN in 1986, there were still a few guys logging with mules. So I got a mule and started doing it too. No stacking was done. They/we loaded them on the truck as they were brought in. Usually used self loading trucks, side loading attachment, sometimes homemade. They used the PTO to drive an axle end with drum brake on it. Used a swiveling brakeline fitting to get brake fluid to the drum. a cable drum on the brake drum would wind up a cable and throw a log on when the brake was applied. (hand lever on a master cylinder)


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

I contacted some guy who did just that for a living years ago. He just wouldn't correspond with me. He said that due to my deafness, the logging would be a safety issue. What really ------ me off was that he thought that was the best thing for me was NOT to even consider or learn how to do horse logging because he thinks deaf people can't do that. DON'T EVER SAY THAT TO A DEAF PERSON AT ALL! Really really really irritated the heck out of me. I've had to deal with morons who think they know what's best for a deaf person. Back in the 1930's they wouldn't let deaf people drive until they found out that research proved that deaf people were far more safe drivers than people who could hear. After they started allowing deaf people to drive, the car insurance agencies wouldn't insure them, thinking deaf people were unsafe drivers and would drive the premiums up. So deaf people established their own car insurance company which was quite successful until the other car insurance agencies starting figuring out that deaf people were more than capable of driving and started to offer deaf people insurance. Many instances where people wouldn't let a deaf person do something and they proved them wrong.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

TedH71 said:


> I contacted some guy who did just that for a living years ago. He just wouldn't correspond with me. He said that due to my deafness, the logging would be a safety issue. What really ------ me off was that he thought that was the best thing for me was NOT to even consider or learn how to do horse logging because he thinks deaf people can't do that. DON'T EVER SAY THAT TO A DEAF PERSON AT ALL! Really really really irritated the heck out of me. I've had to deal with morons who think they know what's best for a deaf person. Back in the 1930's they wouldn't let deaf people drive until they found out that research proved that deaf people were far more safe drivers than people who could hear. After they started allowing deaf people to drive, the car insurance agencies wouldn't insure them, thinking deaf people were unsafe drivers and would drive the premiums up. So deaf people established their own car insurance company which was quite successful until the other car insurance agencies starting figuring out that deaf people were more than capable of driving and started to offer deaf people insurance. Many instances where people wouldn't let a deaf person do something and they proved them wrong.


While this discussion about decking logs with horses has shifted to deafness, I'd like to add a couple comments. Great that you have not let this disability dictate what you do. I have a friend that has been blind since he was 8 years old. As a teenager, he rototilled a garden, ran strings to guide seed placement and hand weeding. He taught middle school history for 30 years and during the summer operated a commercial vegetable garden. Students drove tractors, under his direction and he maintained all the equipment himself and is an avid carpenter.

But we cannot discount the fact that deafness is associated with sharply increased Alzheimer's, increased falls and other injuries and a host of other real challenges. My impaired hearing is being remedied by the purchase of $5000. hearing aids, because I acknowledge the implications.
When I work in the woods, I depend on sounds. The noise a tree makes as it snaps loose of the trunk, and being able to hear a cautionary "Timber" may prevent death.

I have hauled far more firewood out of the woods than logs. But I have hauled hundreds of large logs. I live in an area of lots of snow. Generally, I can roll a big log into other logs with a cant hook. Sometimes I can use the horse to drag an end of the log onto another log. 
Often I brought the logs to a clearing near the road. Then I was able to use a Woodmizer sawmill right there. A few times, I used the tractor's loader to fill a trailer. This still required a lot of cant hook use. 
When skidding logs too large for a single ton draft horse, I devised a large cable block and tackle with hundreds of feet of cable. Because of the mechanical advantage and several cables running against each other in opposite directions, in deep snow, it is fairly dangerous. A few times I was able to pull a large tree away from a tree it had fallen against, using the block and tackle, attached as far up the tree as I could climb.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

TedH71 said:


> I contacted some guy who did just that for a living years ago. He just wouldn't correspond with me. He said that due to my deafness, the logging would be a safety issue. What really ------ me off was that he thought that was the best thing for me was NOT to even consider or learn how to do horse logging because he thinks deaf people can't do that. DON'T EVER SAY THAT TO A DEAF PERSON AT ALL! Really really really irritated the heck out of me. I've had to deal with morons who think they know what's best for a deaf person. Back in the 1930's they wouldn't let deaf people drive until they found out that research proved that deaf people were far more safe drivers than people who could hear. After they started allowing deaf people to drive, the car insurance agencies wouldn't insure them, thinking deaf people were unsafe drivers and would drive the premiums up. So deaf people established their own car insurance company which was quite successful until the other car insurance agencies starting figuring out that deaf people were more than capable of driving and started to offer deaf people insurance. Many instances where people wouldn't let a deaf person do something and they proved them wrong.


Ah, I totally get what you are saying. Both of my little grand daughters are deaf, both have bi-lateral cochlear implants and do fine. But boy, if I had a dollar for each time I have had someone ask me if they can do...anything. Seriously people? My 7 year old GD is a dancer in a good dance troupe, a cheerleader for her grade school sports teams, plays soccer on a team and kicks butt, and horseback rides with me. My little 2.5 yr old GD is equally as active and is well above her age in intelligence. It chaps my hide when anyone says a deaf person can't...whatever....

Im sorry you have been treated like that.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

ticklersgoats said:


> I have been doing some research on logging with horses. ( I am from a family of loggers and still log part time) I was wondering if anyone has any good books or websites with info on the subject?
> 
> I am specifically trying to find some ideas on what people do with the logs once on the landing, as I can't picture in my head a good/easy way to stack them.
> 
> ...



I grew up logging with horses. My dad, grandfather, and uncles all used horses. And you are right it is hard to stack logs with horses. The easiest way to get around this is to not stack the logs. When the landing is full haul them to the mill.

Muleskinner2


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## Grey Mare (Jun 28, 2013)

Before you start logging with horses, please, apprentice with someone who knows what they are doing so you can get some lessons in and first hand experience. Horse driving is not for someone who doesn't have the experience behind the lines. I don't say that to be rude, just to save you some problems and accidents down the line as I have been there, done that. It is a dangerous job and you HAVE to know what your doing. 

A runaway team you only have about 10ft in which to get them stopped, if you don't then your in for one heck of a ride. I was with a good friend when her team decided something out in the crowd at the fair we were giving wagon rides at was spooky and they had had enough, they spooked and bolted. I and the passengers came off the wagon, my friend, the driver, came off too when they tipped it and in their haste to get away, went between cars and as they jumped the median, broke the wagon off the harness. It was a mess. I did eventually find the team, shaken, cut up, scared outta there wits and when you have Shire/Percheron cross team, they aren't easy to calm. 

Contact the Percheron Horse Association and ask if there is anyone near you who logs or contact Jason Rutledge:
https://www.virginia.org/Listings/HistoricSites/HealingHarvestForestFoundationHHHorseLogging/

He is a wealth of knowledge and information and a wonderful teamster. Good luck and please, stay safe.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

haypoint said:


> But we cannot discount the fact that deafness is associated with sharply increased Alzheimer's, increased falls and other injuries and a host of other real challenges.


Hate to bring it up now years later but I know hundreds of deaf people and including my wife. We are more than happy to tell you that this is not true. While it's true that hearing aids are expensive, more and more people are going the cochlear implant route because wearing hearing aids long term actually causes hearing loss believe it or not. I haven't decided whether I want the surgery or not. I've been told CIs are much better than hearing aids and typically is 100% covered by health insurance while hearing aids are almost never covered those days. 

Now let's go back to horse logging as a topic, don't we?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

TedH71 said:


> Now let's go back to horse logging as a topic, don't we?


Wow, just wow! A few years ago, you derailed the topic of horse logging to complain about people that think deafness is a disability. I authored a long comment that included mention about people that I know that overcame their disability. I also made a brief mention about the known connection between a hearing loss and Alzheimer's.
So, 2 1/2 years later, you come back to tell me how wrong I am, then make a request to get back on topic. Back on topic? You derailed it 30 months ago.
If you want to air your opposition to the scientific research that connects deafness to Alzheimer's, perhaps General Chat would be where you could start the discussion. Go there. Otherwise, the best way to get back on topic is to simply stop talking about off topic stuff.


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## kotori (Nov 15, 2014)

Rural heritage is a good source for most things, and i think i have a magazine laying around about logging. I went to a few horse progress days so could probably help with more specifics.

For stacking onto a wagon, they have a wagon with metal ramps attached that swing up to box the logs in when on the road. You pull the log parallel, then use a chain over the wagon and have the team pull perpendicularly to the log to pull it up onto the bed.

ETA: looks like i was beaten to the punch. I'll leave this here regardless.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Alder said:


>


This type of rig was called a "Log Jammer". Really just a A frame usually tied back to a tree, it leaned over a bit so you could drive the wagon or sleigh under it. I have never used one with a team, but a Farm All H tractor worked just as well.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

My first thought on reading the thread title was "How do you teach a horse to use an axe?"

Rural Heritage Mag is a bit pricey-- They have a show seen on RFD-TV: https://www.rfdtv.com/story/22876063/rural-heritage


Quaintly presented history of logging in WI with interviews, photos, footage & demonstrations of old techniques.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McXkG69aL9U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXy5fzQwgcs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePBnFRP2X_c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sflWiEGPqfY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTxv-ukOdZ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvo1FyPhZNk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX9xwl_5dEs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8GLG00ycXg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y413FFnpt6c


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## kotori (Nov 15, 2014)

Sorry, should have elaborated; they have an online forum that has a search function and a reading area thats full of articles for free. here be links:
the forum, aka the front porch: https://www.ruralheritage.com/new_rh_website/forum/latest-messages/
(oh they reorganized the reading area...nice.) heres the logging specific page: https://www.ruralheritage.com/new_rh_website/resources/logging/logging_main_green.shtml

ETA some basic of basics stuff: working harness. mildly different from a show harness in that it has a collar. breeching shouldn't be necessary unless going downhill; I'll peruse my RH magazines because there was an article on minimal harnessing.

A logging arch lifts the front of the log up and reduces/prevents it getting caught up on roots or digging into the soil, and also reduces the effort needed by the horse marginally. If the area is smooth or frozen, you could probably get away with just pincher style.

If your horses are 'soft', ease them into work. If they've never logged before, it might take some adjustment for them because of the force needed; there was a story i heard about a guy who wanted to use a logging mule to seed his garden, but the mule ended up just charging off; he was used to nothing or maximal effort, no in between.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

The only harness I ever buy is the collar and hames. I make the rest myself.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

back in 1959 i skidded logs with horses. we used two horses but not as a team, the logs were not large saw logs, but what they call pulp logs. the horses were not large either.. there was nobody at the landing to unhitch the log, so I had to go with the horse to hook up the log and then stay with the horse as he pulled the log to the landing,, otherwise he would just skid the log all the way to the barn about a mile away..
I held on to the collar and let the horse pull me along.
I was running with giant strides.
once , a log hit something and stopped dead. the hanes broke and hit me about 6 inches above the wrist. it did not break my arm, but it was numb for a few days ..
after I got married, we had a nice large garden. the neighbor had a skidding horse . one day he brought that horse over and said, let's cultivate your sweet corn.
sounded good to me.. I can still picture old Bill running full tilt behind that hand held cultivator.. LOL


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> back in 1959 i skidded logs with horses. we used two horses but not as a team, the logs were not large saw logs, but what they call pulp logs. the horses were not large either.. there was nobody at the landing to unhitch the log, so I had to go with the horse to hook up the log and then stay with the horse as he pulled the log to the landing,, otherwise he would just skid the log all the way to the barn about a mile away..
> I held on to the collar and let the horse pull me along.
> I was running with giant strides.
> once , a log hit something and stopped dead. the hanes broke and hit me about 6 inches above the wrist. it did not break my arm, but it was numb for a few days ..
> ...


Yup, just because a horse is great with pulling logs doesn't mean he'll pull everything. A local horse logger (who should have known better) hitched his best horse to a hay rake, chaos ensued, and he was ran over with it. He was lucky he didn't get really hurt.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Our horses were farming horses that learned to skid logs. We used them for logging, mowing hay, pulling wagons and sleighs, and cultivating corn. The big half draft mare I have now has carried a pack, skidded logs, pulled a sleigh, pulls a cart, and teaches young horses and mules who have never seen running water how to cross a river. Where she goes they follow, if they want to or not, doesn't make any difference to her.


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## just_sawing (Jan 15, 2006)

I need to get some side photos of horse logging. I am needing a side view . I am going to be creating a Stain Glass mural and need a base Phot.


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

Try getting in touch with Jason Rutledge at Healing Harvest (in Virginia).

healing harvest forest foundation


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

just_sawing said:


> I need to get some side photos of horse logging. I am needing a side view . I am going to be creating a Stain Glass mural and need a base Phot.


Not pulling logs, but a descriptive side view. My single horse with a log.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I bought a young mare that they claimed was broke to pull. I was teaching her as I was learning. I'd located an old leather harness at a frm auction and oiled the dry leather and made it a bit more flexible. But every time she felt the weight of a log, she went as fast as she could. She would go home if I let her.
The trail was narrow, the snow was deep and the trail snaked around trees. Holding back on the lines, while running alongside the heavy log, worried me. But I was not able to slow her down. I needed more leverage.

I had a plan. I was going to teach a lesson.

I cut a medium sized elm tree and chained the evener to it. I left all the branches on it, in a well thought out way to slow her down. Then, I climbed on her back, wrapped the long lines over the hames with the brass ball tops, held tight to the lines and quietly spoke to her. She stepped ahead, tightening the chain. As the tugs tightened, she lunged forward, hooves digging into the packed snow path. We went about 20 feet before the tree branches wedged against other trees, bringing her to a stop. In the instant of that stop, I was thinking she was learning a lesson. In that micro second, she backed up a few inches and charged into the collar. Bam! The leather straps, holding the hames together at the top and bottom of the collar, snapped. With the velocity of a major league baseball pitch, each hame ball struck each of my knee caps. Wearing just the collar, bridle, with the leather lines streaming along her sides. Trot, trot, trot, the 2 miles to the barn. Once I was able to stand, get untangled from the harness, unhook the evener, I was ready to limp back home, carrying the rotten harness. I had lots of time to digest the lesson.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

haypoint said:


> I had a plan. I was going to teach a lesson.


Wow! That really was a well-thought-out lesson plan!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

nehimama said:


> Wow! That really was a well-thought-out lesson plan!


This was early on in my self taught teamstering. I've forgotten how many "I'm going to teach a lesson" repetitions it took before the light came on. I'd guess a few. Many of my stories and advises contain references to "push comes to shove". Serves one well to contemplate the worst possible reaction to your initial push. Always easier to plow around the stump.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

haypoint said:


> I bought a young mare that they claimed was broke to pull. I was teaching her as I was learning. I'd located an old leather harness at a frm auction and oiled the dry leather and made it a bit more flexible. But every time she felt the weight of a log, she went as fast as she could. She would go home if I let her.
> The trail was narrow, the snow was deep and the trail snaked around trees. Holding back on the lines, while running alongside the heavy log, worried me. But I was not able to slow her down. I needed more leverage.
> 
> I had a plan. I was going to teach a lesson.
> ...


That was a fun read. I laughed so hard, but I'm glad you were okay. How are your knee caps in your old age?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

nehimama said:


> That was a fun read. I laughed so hard, but I'm glad you were okay. How are your knee caps in your old age?


My knees are fine, somehow. Most of the folks my age are getting new knees or hips. Last night, I was expecting a Fed Ex package. I went out in the sub zero weather and checked the landing on the (unused, unshoveled)front porch. Then I thought it might be in the mail box. So, I ran down the driveway, looked in the box and ran back. I couldn't remember when the last time I ran was. Odd. I once ran a lot. I can still run, just has to have a solid reason to go with it. It was COLD.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Fuel oil tank made into a sled, I beam runners, filled with firewood.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

Very nice photos.


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