# Minimum wage "experiment"



## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

In 1968, when I entered the workforce full-time, minimum wage was $1.75 an hour. On that salary, I rented a small apartment, fed myself, made a car payment on a used car, paid health insurance, and had a bit left over for fun activities (usually bar hopping Fri-Sat nights in those days). I certainly wasn't rich, but could take care of myself without asking for help from others. 

Today minimum wage is $7.25 an hour and most minimum wage jobs do not come with any benefits (the same was true back in '68). So I wondered how a single person fares today? I looked at the tax tables and that equals $1124.00 a month after FICA and income taxes. 

Since most folks on this board are extra frugal, I'd really be interested in how you would fare if you were making minimum wage and what you would do (other than accepting outside help) to make ends meet? Or, to put it another way, what advice would you give to a HS graduate who's only option is to work for minimum wage?

I'm still working on my figures and will post them later today.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

I'd move to Alaska, live in a camper for the summer or rent a room and hunt and fish....AMAP


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

My advice to a HS graduate. Get a BS degree in a hard science, work before and after school. In the summer, seek out work/study or internship positions.

Or, go to work in the oilfield. 

Minimum wages are for people with minimum skills. Get more education, more skills, more "more", and advance in life. We'll always have minimum wage jobs, for folks without any getupandgo. I know HS graduates who're making $20+ hour, workin the oilfields, who in a year or two will be making over 40K.

If your smarter, have more skills, and more ambition than your fellow citizens, you will be rewarded. [Unless you live in a Progressive Paradise, where opportunities are slim for advancement]


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## Pam6 (Apr 9, 2009)

If this was my child...a HS graduate. I would encourage them to stay at home and live DEBT FREE while furthering their educational skills or at the very least finding another job while they have the mom and dad safety net under them. Tell them to APPLY, APPLY, APPLY for other jobs! If they do not get a job they need to ask what skills they are lacking in order to get that particular job. If it is the career they want they need to get those skills.
There ARE unskilled jobs out there that are paying MORE than minimum wage! You just have to find them!


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## Pelenaka (Jul 27, 2007)

Wow, that's allot of wage thinking with a 1984 brain which is the last time I made minimum wage as a Nurses Aid. Studio apartment, child, no health insurance, babysitter, laundromat, & food. A bus pass was $30 for unlimited travel in the city. Shopped @ thrift stores loved the Jewish League, great designer stuffs. 
I however was never able to live on a 40 paycheck so usually worked 48 with one week of just under 80 hours. Use to sleep standing up well no but I would sleep on the bus woke up more than once downtown drooling. The line I took went past Eastman Kodak business tower so the office workers just use to stare @ that passed out girl in a white uniform with her purse under head. Cluess that I had been up all night.

So the scene is a single person living on the line ? 
If that's the case then I'd recommend sharing an apartment/house, and setting themselves up with employment that didn't require a car. 
Bicycle. 

Have you ever noticed those little wooded areas around malls or a shopping plaza ? Hubby & I were talking about how a person could have a job @ a mall, use the bathrooms there, eat there, and camp in one of those wooded mediums. Now with most malls having restaurants or book stores with wifi add in a lap top a person would be set. Charge cell phones & lap tops @ work, stop by the food court for ice for a soft sided cooler filled with milk, juice, lunch meat. Add in a solar shower for general clean up, visit the a gym (public pool) for showering as needed, ... pack up when the landscapers come to mow. 


~~ pelenaka ~~


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I was told for my entire early life: "Go to school and study hard or you'll end up a farmer."

Now here at the end, all I want to be IS a farmer. So I advise my children to do what they love and let the money fall where the money falls.

As for "unskilled" labor, there's always paths for those without a formal education. I quit school in the 10th grade. Instead of working for minimum wage in a fast food restaurant, I worked at jobs that got tips and so I was more in control of my income. Later I worked at a gas station and became certified to do state inspections, which earned me significantly more than my mininum wage counterparts. 

Profit, Enterprise, and Thrift are mutually bound together, but Enterprise is the key. Where there is Enterprise, there may or may not be Thrift but there will always be Profit.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Most minimum wage jobs around here are not 40 hours per week, they are part time. And if you don't get assigned regular hours, it is next to impossible to get a 2nd job to make up the difference.


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## belladulcinea (Jun 21, 2006)

When we got married in 1972 my husband was a machinist and worked as a computer operator, we were paid a little above minimum wage. But we walked in tall cotton so to speak until the mid 70s happened. 

I would tell a kid in HS or HS graduate to go to vo-tech! Learn auto repair, welding, CNC or some other trade that you get your hands dirty! There are also programs at our vo-tech for your nursing courses, computer repair, small engine, food arts and medical transcription. We still have manufacturing here and they need all of the above! We've decided that college is the gold paved streets, well there are alot of college grads working in donut stores and Mcds!

As for how to live on the new minimum wage. I would tell them to find a good roommate, don't buy a new car but one that gets you around, save your money and if need be, work 2 jobs or at least some seasonal jobs. My nephew is in Nashville trying to break into the music scene, he is a waiter most of the time, but he has a job that he works 4 times a year for 4-6 weeks that earns him 1/2 a year's salary. At the restaraunt he works they are used to these kinds of kids so they let him off and he will work weekends or when he can during that time. He's been hungry and homeless, both have made him see that a job is a job is a job, not everyone gets their dream job. He has a roommate, drives a 2002 Cavalier with, kid you not, 350,000 miles on it and is learning to work on it himself. Cooks for himself and his motto is "as long as I have bisquick I can eat!" :hysterical:


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## lemonthyme7 (Jul 8, 2010)

DD started at minimum wage in deli at grocery. Within a year and a half she has gone from part time minimum wage to full time and is now at $10 hr. She is a hard worker and doesn't call off work. Even so, she is still living at home and knows she could not rent and pay all the other bills comfortably even on $10 hr. She saved her money and bought a used car outright (Honda Civic) so she has no car payment. She is on our car insurance and pays her share of the insurance every month. If she were to get a place of her own it would be with a room mate to help split the rent. Because of the new health care she is still able to be on DH insurance. She would like to go to college for business management or something usefull. Some of her cousins have taken courses like theatre and art which though a fine goal, she rightfully feels (my opinion also) will be hard to find a good paying job in those fields. I wish we had the money to send her to college but we just don't so she will have to pay her way and do loans, I guess. I'm sorry I don't have much good advice. I think it is very hard for today's HS graduate to make it on minimum wage. If they want to be on their own I think that a room mate would be the best option so at least the rent and utility costs could be cut in half. Just make sure it's someone they can trust.

E.T.A. DH never graduated from high school but is a hard worker. He has training in welding and has his inspection license. He has never been afraid of work and has had a number of differnt jobs. For the last ten years he has worked driving a front loader garbage truck picking up dumpsters from business, schools, etc. He rarely gets out of the truck. He makes pretty decent money - hey, there's lots of money in garbage! I often think a trade school is much more worthwhile then regular college where a kid spends the first 2 years taking classes that don't necessarily apply to their major anyway! DH says he can find anyone a job. He took my DD out looking for jobs twice and both times he found her a job the same day. Even in this economy the jobs are there if people relly want to work.


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## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

Round here rent is the same if not higher then a house payment. Can't imagine trying to make it alone on min. wage. Roommates are great if you can find one that is "safe", equally willing to work (IE not loaf around while you pay the bills), and has a sable job. I agree, one needs "more than HS" training. Either vo-ed or some sort of after HS degree to make it an easier path. I'm sure it can be done without, but I wouldn't wish that trip on anyone.


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## demeter (Jul 15, 2010)

Like MO cows said, the minimum wage jobs here are never full time. And the shifts vary incredibly often from one day to the next.

Demeter


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## Forlane (Jul 17, 2010)

Here in California where we live a studio appt runs about 650 a month. The problem is not with being able to afford the place, its with the fact that to rent you need to make 3x the rent cost or have someone co-sign for you.

The lack of trust from property owners is what makes it so people cannot afford to live on minimum wage.

Also as another person said, if you work a minimum wage job 99% of the time you do not get 40 hours a week, this is the major roadblock.

If you can find a place that does not have the "3x greater than rent cost, income" rule and you can get 40 hours a week working minimum wage, there is no reason you cannot afford to live and save a decent amount.


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## belladulcinea (Jun 21, 2006)

My sister raised her 2 kids on a little less than 20,000 a year here in Oklahoma. No food stamps or any other type of help. Bought a house, a car every 8 or 9 years and now that the kids are out does pretty well. It also depends on where you live as to how well you will do on minimum wage.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Forlane said:


> Here in California where we live a studio appt runs about 650 a month. The problem is not with being able to afford the place, its with the fact that to rent you need to make 3x the rent cost or have someone co-sign for you.
> 
> The lack of trust from property owners is what makes it so people cannot afford to live on minimum wage.
> 
> ...


I left home when I was 16 and had sort of the same problem. I was too young to get an apartment on my own because I couldn't sign the lease. For about a year I just lived in a motel that charged $70 per week for the room.


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## Usingmyrights (Jan 10, 2011)

I couldn't make it on mimimum wage. My childsupport alone would eat up almost half of it.


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## stamphappy (Jul 29, 2010)

Belfrybat said:


> In 1968, when I entered the workforce full-time, minimum wage was $1.75 an hour. On that salary, I rented a small apartment, fed myself, made a car payment on a used car, paid health insurance, and had a bit left over for fun activities (usually bar hopping Fri-Sat nights in those days). I certainly wasn't rich, but could take care of myself without asking for help from others.
> 
> Today minimum wage is $7.25 an hour and most minimum wage jobs do not come with any benefits (the same was true back in '68). So I wondered how a single person fares today? I looked at the tax tables and that equals $1124.00 a month after FICA and income taxes.


They don't fare as well today as you did in '68 because you didn't *need* a cellphone, a high speed internet connection, direct tv with 200+ channels, a Wii, an Xbox, a PS3, a hand held Ipad, mani/pedi twice a month, sunless tanning, highlights in your hair every 6 weeks, and whatever else is deemed _*necessary*_ today.


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## Becka03 (Mar 29, 2009)

I might be doing this experiment for real soon


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## INFORG (Jun 21, 2011)

There is a book I read recently that I recommend for any highschooler or minimum wage employee:

Scratch Beginnings: Me, $25, and the Search for the American Dream

It is a recent book and about a young man who asks the same question as the OP (sort of). It is really inspirational.

So many times we assume that everything is stacked against us, and that there is no way we can succeed as in the past. The dream is still attainable.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I just put that book in my book queue, Inforg. Thanks for the recommendation.

I have a son who is 14 and starting to struggle with these sorts of decisions. I'd like to be able to give him some sort of a written guide. He listens to me well, but I don't want his path to have to be my path.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

My husband says to join the military.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

In the past decade, a whole lot of boys have found that not to be so good of a path to a better future, or in fact any future at all.

Though that was my path, I can't recommend it to anyone today.


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## Usingmyrights (Jan 10, 2011)

The military is a good thing for young guys who don't know what they want in life. Even though I thought I knew, if I could do it over again, I'd sign up in a heart beat.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2011)

Usingmyrights said:


> The military is a good thing for young guys who don't know what they want in life. Even though I thought I knew, if I could do it over again, I'd sign up in a heart beat.


Sure , if you survive it . I was in the military during the Nam years & when my son decided he wanted to enlist I talked him out of it . He now has a good job & is doing very well for himself .


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## Usingmyrights (Jan 10, 2011)

^^^Not every job is a front lines fighting job. The military has more support jobs then anything. Could even do a job that doesn't require even being in the same area as the fighting. I know someone who was in the military during the Vietnam era and was an aircraft mechicanic. He did see some time in 'nam, but it was nothing more than being flown in to a base, doing quick repair jobs to get the plans back up, then being flown back out to safety. Wasn't on the ground for more than a couple hours, and it was all on base.


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## Honduras Trish (Nov 30, 2007)

My oldest daughter is working a minimum wage job at Home Depot, while putting herself through college. She's staying rent-free, and mostly eating for free, with my parents (and driving one of their cars, too, though paying for her own gas), so she's able to afford to pay for her books and classes. She's starting in the next month or so to take EMT classes, so that she can get a better paying job. Then, she hopes to be able to afford a tiny apartment of her own, while still taking her college classes. It's one little step at a time.

It took her months to get her job, and Home Depot doesn't hire anyone full time, so that limits her income, as well.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

IN 1968 that was the pay for a beginning teacher in Texas. Got big raise by the time I started in 74 with a master's and a 12 month contract. I made $7800 that year. On today's min wage, I wouldn't have enough to pay utilities, taxes, insurance and food, even with house paid for and vehicles paid for. Not to mention the cost of meds I have to have now.

Irritates me the pay the military receive. Those younguns put lives on the line for a pittance.
Ed


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Another interesting book on the subject: Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America 

It is about a reporter that goes undercover, getting minimum wage jobs around the US to see if it is indeed possible to live off that amount, and if hard work will get you ahead. She is admittedly a liberal, so a different point of view than you may be used to.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

One of the books that inspired me was:

http://www.possumliving.net/

"Possum Living: How to Live Well with No Job and (almost) No Money"


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## Farmerwilly2 (Oct 14, 2006)

I too was in the military, and I still use a lot of what I learned in that time. Two things I keep in mind on nearly a daily basis:

Can't never did a darned thing.

It's hard, but it's fair.

Those two life lessons by themselves were worth the heartache. I credit my father with instilling in me another life lesson, that you do what needs to be done. Sometimes it's hard, sometimes it sucks, but you know in your heart that it needs done, so do it.

Since chance does favor the prepared mind I have been brushing up skill sets. I studied and passed my certification as a pharmacy tech. Next week I'm going back to school and finishing up a BS in computer tech. I may be in classes with nephews and neices, but I'm doing what needs done.


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## INFORG (Jun 21, 2011)

Having been in the military, a couple of comments on it:

1. Regarding pay above - base pay may look pitiful, but when you factor in allowances and such that are not taxed, they make a lot more than minimum wage. Years ago, as an E4 I took home about $400 a week after taxes, plus 4 weeks vacation, health care, etc. Not a lot, but the equivalent of a good $15+ an hour job.

2. When I talk to young folks about joining the military, my advice is as follows:

a. don't do it. You give the best years of your life to the service, and even if you get some value back, it is still a poor bargain to make. 

b. if you are going to go in, go to college first and go in as an officer (more money and they pay your school loans)

c. if you still are bound and determined, join the AirForce - it has the most business-like set up and prepares you the best for later. Also, less combat potential.

d. not interested in the AirForce? Navy next, Army, Marines. Good Luck!

Ernie, I'm gonna check out that Possum Living. You sure it isn't too dated?


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## missyann100 (Aug 16, 2011)

Interesting topic, I have a lot of thought on this. When I was 18 I was kicked out of the house with child. I was lucky that someone took me in and charged me at a reduced rate for room, and child care. Me and my daughter shared a room with their daughter who was my same age. I took on 2 fast food jobs, and sleep like 5 hours inbetween. Didn't hardly see my daughter. They helped me get my drivers license, and a car on my own. I then moved back home for a bit, then rented a room in a house where all the rooms were rented to women with children, and guys were not allowed to spend the night. I was able to get child care paid for so I took on the 2 jobs again. Then I made to much money and lost my medi-cal. I did pay for my monthly minimum car insurance, however I got hit by some guy that didn't. Thats another story, but brings up the point that if you aren't making enough you do things to make ends meet, which could be letting your insurance laps. Times were rough. I then met someone.

Now that daughter is 28 and a bartender. She makes pretty good money, but she lives with grandma, partly because grandma needs it. She is working with others that have degrees, so she is wondering if she should even bother going back for a degree. Yes of course she has the cell phone. Now my mom is on a SS, and currently is over spending. This is scarey for me, but there is nothing I can do to convience her she needs to quit smoking, drinking and she needs to turn off the stupid cable. She has just about every channel! Enough about that. 

Me and my husband are paring down. We were relocated across country last year. His company had to close some doors. We were lucky that he still has a job. We still have a house in AZ we bought 3 yrs ago and can't sell of course. Thank goodness that we do have renters in AZ. Unfortunately we have 2 car payments, but at the time of purchase I had a job. Jobs are hard to find here. I'd have to travel 30 miles, and I just don't think it would be worth it. My husband has to work a lot of extra hours, and they have him on 2nd shift here at the home plant. If I got a job we probably won't see much of each other. I am doing all the yard work, vegetable garden, chicken caring, food storage for winter. We have realized that we need to at least double the vegetable garden next year. I am giving my the dog and cat their vaccinations. We have turned off the cable, and I am learning to watch the video news online. We are trying to live without the air conditioner/furnance as much as possible. We use cloth napkins. We shop at thrift stores. I save the shower water, and dish water to water the plants. I have a rain barrel too. We don't have a land line. Who really needs one any more. We have 2 cell phones at $100 / month. I remember having land line bills that high after long distance charges. Its almost like we are now on minimum wage again. But I have to say I think life is a bit easier. If you don't have money you don't really need anything.  We went window shoping this last weekend at Lowes. We saw several things we'd like to have, but ended up walking out and going back home.

I have to add that I can't wait until we get a new president, just maybe we can get a President that wants to change the economy instead of this blame game that is being played. Sorry for the long post. I think if you have any sense of personal pride you try your best and survive. You just live with less. Its ok not to have everything your neighbor has.

Wanted to add that we do have medical insurance, but with a very high deductable, so we really can afford to use it.


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## Forlane (Jul 17, 2010)

Missy did you say you have TWO cell phone bills each being $100 a month? I ask because we have a family plan with multiple phones/lines and it comes out to $100 a month


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## missyann100 (Aug 16, 2011)

Forlane said:


> Missy did you say you have TWO cell phone bills each being $100 a month?


2 phones 1 bill. 

I guess I should add that we have the ATT extended family something. You have to pay more to get the 10 free numbers. Our family is all over the country. We have like 10,000 saved minutes.  lol I looked around we can't really save any, and be sides we are out of contract. We would like to stay that way if something would arise would could just cancel the phones altogether, and go back to strickly a land line. That would be cheaper but my husband like me to have a leash.


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## Forlane (Jul 17, 2010)

We have the same plan with rollover minutes I think we are up to 4k now, just got a phone for MIL so she could cancel the land line which was running $100-200/month due to her daughter (not my wife) talking to people long distance. 

So we got a phone for $20 after taxes and its an extra $20/month on our bill but the land line was $30 something by itself with no long distance. With how crazy things are these days everyone should have a cell phone

Also back on topic about minimum wage living. I think the biggest problem with not being able to live on minimum wage is the fact that families aren't nearly as close as they used to be. Kids move out when they are 18 and its frowned upon to live with parents past that age. 

If you have family its much cheaper to house 8 people in one house than it is to house 2 people in 4 different houses. It only makes sense economically to live together with everyone contributing. If more people lived this way and it was socially normal minimum wage wouldn't nearly be a problem.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Belfrybat said:


> Or, to put it another way, what advice would you give to a HS graduate who's only option is to work for minimum wage?
> 
> I'm still working on my figures and will post them later today.


I'd tell them they better start working overtime to open up better options..

It's not that hard, just have to put your future ahead of romance and fun for few years. Pick a skill that can pay well, get out and learn it and use it.

I have lived at that level, dropped out of school at 16, and it was roommate required to share rent and bills, no phone, no cable TV, internet didn't exist then, old cheap car with good gas mileage, eating cheap and then spending the rest on fun.. At least until I wised up and started collecting useful job skills.


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## Gena (May 25, 2011)

I could do it in my area, provided I got 40 hours or close to it.

Rent a 1 bedroom apt $275
Utilities $150 on average
Food $200/month
Tracfone $20/month (cheaper than land line but would have to be frugal with minutes)
Internet $35/month
Gas $120/month
Car insurance $35/month
=$835/month
That would leave me $289 for savings, health insurance and/or other incidentals. Of course I'd need to have a paid for car and zero debt for this to work. I would probably forget about health insurance unless it was very cheap through my employer and sock away every bit of extra cash I could for things like a month of -10 temps, car repairs, and illnesses.


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## farmerpat (Jan 1, 2008)

If I was that age again, and in that financial situation, I'd find a job where I could learn a trade that would not be dependent on changes in technology, such as working on a cattle ranch or on a farm. Alot of those type of jobs come with a small house or trailer as part of the salary, so housing and utilities could possibly be included, and alot of employers will teach you alot of skills (basic veterinary/equine/bovine care, etc) and some will assist/pay for you learning to drive a semi and get a CDL, along with training you in the basic management of the ranch/feedlot/farm. All of these skills can be used later if you choose to move on to another job elsewhere.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Alot of people live on min wage. Dh and i live on about $500 a month.
We do own the house though. Best investment we ever made.


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## missyann100 (Aug 16, 2011)

Forlane said:


> Also back on topic about minimum wage living. I think the biggest problem with not being able to live on minimum wage is the fact that families aren't nearly as close as they used to be. Kids move out when they are 18 and its frowned upon to live with parents past that age.
> 
> If you have family its much cheaper to house 8 people in one house than it is to house 2 people in 4 different houses. It only makes sense economically to live together with everyone contributing. If more people lived this way and it was socially normal minimum wage wouldn't nearly be a problem.


Lets talk about living closer.  1 1/2 years ago. We lived in AZ. My daughter had come to stay with us from N. Cal. Mom, and I are from N.Cal. Mom has been living in GA for a bit now, brother was there and cost of living was easier than N Cal. Mom came to AZ. My daughter and her rented a mini-van and drove her back to GA. She has a lot more options there and the rent is incredibly cheaper. Then as I said we were transfered to TN 3 months later. Weird? And my husbands is from and his family is in N KY. I guess things happen for a reason? I have to say I do like it here more than the left coast.  Oh and I still have Father and a daughter in CA. Yes we are all moving around the country. 

What about those people that are living in motor homes moving around the country to where the jobs are?


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

stamphappy said:


> They don't fare as well today as you did in '68 because you didn't *need* a cellphone, a high speed internet connection, direct tv with 200+ channels, a Wii, an Xbox, a PS3, a hand held Ipad, mani/pedi twice a month, sunless tanning, highlights in your hair every 6 weeks, and whatever else is deemed _*necessary*_ today.


I wasn't talking about luxuries like you state above, but how does a person today live on less than $1200.00 a month without outside assistance? From reading most of the replies, it appears the answer is they really can't. And sadly that is the result I come up with. In this rural area, transportation is a must, rents normally run $300-500. for a small house/ apartment, utilities anywhere from $100-200 depending on whether it is an apt. or house., medical insurance is about the same all over I think -- $300-400 a month, plus of course making the deductible and co-pays., then just the normal living expense of food, household goods, and a little leisure. I came up with $1400.00 for a really stripped down "existence". 




Honduras Trish said:


> My oldest daughter is working a minimum wage job at Home Depot, while putting herself through college. She's staying rent-free, and mostly eating for free, with my parents....


Do you think she could manage on minimum wage and not receive outside assistance, even if she wasn't going to school? 





Gena said:


> I could do it in my area, provided I got 40 hours or close to it.
> 
> Rent a 1 bedroom apt $275
> Utilities $150 on average
> ...


I was figuring on full-time when I proposed the experiment. Rent is really cheap in your area. The only place I see cheap rents like that around here is in the low rent HUD apts., but I'm not sure someone making this much could qualify. 



SquashNut said:


> Alot of people live on min wage. Dh and i live on about $500 a month.
> We do own the house though. Best investment we ever made.


I'd be interested in how you manage that. Utilities, auto expense, health insurance, out of pocket medical costs, and groceries run me over $800.00 a month, and I consider myself frugal. And property taxes runs $900.00 a year, which I also have to factor in. 

Actually I live on $1200. a month, but as with you, my house is paid for. 

One interesting thing to me is most folks responded as though the person living on minimum wage was young. I don't know about other states, but here in Texas there are many folks who have lost their jobs and are basically being forced to take very low paying jobs. Maybe not right at minimum wage, but $9.00 to 10.00 an hour and most without benefits.

We certainly live in a tough age.


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

I found the first chart on this website very telling. I don't know how to post the chart here, but here is a link to it: 
http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth484/minwage.html

Minimum wage of $1.75 in 1968 is the equivilent of $10.00 in today's money. That was why I and others were able to live so well on minimum wage around that time. The other charts on this site were also informative to me.


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## chickenman (May 13, 2002)

Ernie said:


> One of the books that inspired me was:
> 
> http://www.possumliving.net/
> 
> "Possum Living: How to Live Well with No Job and (almost) No Money"



Good read. It was just reprinted a couple years ago. There's a good set of videos on youtube about the lifestyle that her and her father lived.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Is street walking an option? Otherwise I would suggest running away with the circus, if you're lucky you will get a room in a semi trailer that's upwind of the elephant poo. :banana:


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Belfrybat said:


> I found the first chart on this website very telling. I don't know how to post the chart here, but here is a link to it:
> http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth484/minwage.html
> 
> Minimum wage of $1.75 in 1968 is the equivilent of $10.00 in today's money. That was why I and others were able to live so well on minimum wage around that time. The other charts on this site were also informative to me.


I think it depends on where you were in 68. Because in 75. I was a nurses aide and was making $1.10 - $1.25. But that was Idaho.
I rented a small apartment with a freind for $35 a month.


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## machinist (Aug 3, 2010)

I have lived cheap on very little money, and I have lived well on more money. More money is better, hands down. 

There are many ways to cut costs and live cheap, but the time involved would, for most people, be better spent working a job. There are limits to that idea, however. The law of diminishing returns applies here. Once a certain threshold of income is reached, more money is not so important, and just buys a more luxurious lifestyle. How many gold plated toilet seats can one person sit on at a time? 

Location is important. Minimum wage goes a LOT farther where we live in southern Indiana than it would in a major city, say New York, or Los Angeles. 

So. What to tell the kid? 1) Decide where you want to live. 2) Do whatever it takes to get a better than minimum wage job. 3) Be frugal with what money you make. 4) Look at the long term about how to invest whatever you can save. 5) Before you join the military, consider that the US makes a habit of trying to end an economic problem by going to war.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Agreed. More money is always better so long as you can earn more money without being a slave.

In this day and age, there's almost ALWAYS something you can do to earn more than minimum wage. Even the illegal aliens pushing lawnmowers are earning more than minimum wage. If you could spend that time gardening, or smallcrafting, or anything else then it's probably superior to tying up your time with a minimum wage employment.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

I no longer suggest the military. I personally loved it, untill my kids were old enough to go to school. Um, I'm weird and wanted to fight so a combat mos was great. It was the VA that changed my mind. While it's great now and appreciated, I went 12 years struggling while disabled before VA came through. Happens to often to volunteer for possible injury and a 12 year fight to survive afterwards. I feel the VA is one that will get quiet budget cuts. No longer worth the risk IMO.

None of my family went to school after high school. All are working at decent paying jobs they like. Well, most are. I would not suggest college unless you have a particular dream to live. Like Ernie, I think they should do what makes them happy. Side jobs are awsome. Most in my family train and shoe horses on the side and it's a hobby they make some money with. Could do the same with many hobbies or turn them into a business.


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## Forlane (Jul 17, 2010)

missyann100 said:


> Lets talk about living closer.  1 1/2 years ago. We lived in AZ. My daughter had come to stay with us from N. Cal. Mom, and I are from N.Cal. Mom has been living in GA for a bit now, brother was there and cost of living was easier than N Cal. Mom came to AZ. My daughter and her rented a mini-van and drove her back to GA. She has a lot more options there and the rent is incredibly cheaper. Then as I said we were transfered to TN 3 months later. Weird? And my husbands is from and his family is in N KY. I guess things happen for a reason? I have to say I do like it here more than the left coast.  Oh and I still have Father and a daughter in CA. Yes we are all moving around the country.
> 
> What about those people that are living in motor homes moving around the country to where the jobs are?


We tried the living on the GA/Tn border thing near my family. 3 bedroom house on 3/4 acre $600 a month, slightly smaller house here in Cali on 1/8th acre is $1250.

As someone else said, living well on minimum wage definitely depends on what part of the country you live in. Sometimes I wish I had gone to college for a degree. Then I come to my senses and realize how much I enjoy being able to live with family on a limited budget.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

And as others point out and people ignore, where exactly do you get a full time minimum wage job? All that I have seen are part time (to avoid any laws that require benefits for full time employees) and they tend to refuse to acknowledge that part time means a second or even third job is necessary and that they need to have set work hours so those second and third jobs are possible. Changing work hours every other day makes this impossible. 

Then these same genius employers complain nobody wants to work. Well explain how somebody can work PART TIME for that employer only and survive???? It just isnt going to happen. You want cheap part time help, you need to be flexible and work around that persons other jobs.

People get hung up on term "minimum wage". Indeed few people earn the legal "minimum wage", but there are many that work for $8 to $10 and I would consider that defacto minimum wage. That extra couple bucks an hour isnt exactly going to let you go out and buy that new Lamborghini.... or even decent wholesome food. We are talking real honest to goodness fresh fruits and vegetables, not packet of ramen noodles and a can of green beans.

And medical services are going to bite you in the butt at some point. People talking cheap health insurance are talking extreme deductibles. Health insurance with a $50k deductible to make it affordable is not health insurance unless you are Daddy Warbucks and can pay that every year for some lingering illness. Few people can even come up with five thousand a year to meet deductible. Somebody working PART TIME minimum wage if super lucky might scrounge up couple hundred. Well health insurance with a couple hundred dollar deductible simply isnt affordable. 

On minimum wage, you also arent going to hire mechanic. If you cant economically repair old jalopy yourself, you have to sell it for scrap and try to find another. Cause reality, you need a car to get to work unless you live under a bridge near your multiple part time jobs. And if you live where there is say a bus, well that means rent is going to be much higher. $200 a month rent some previous poster mentioned is not realistic in city with bus service. Well unless you are renting cot space in an efficiency apartment with 10 other people.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Ernie said:


> Agreed. More money is always better so long as you can earn more money without being a slave.
> 
> In this day and age, there's almost ALWAYS something you can do to earn more than minimum wage. Even the illegal aliens pushing lawnmowers are earning more than minimum wage. If you could spend that time gardening, or smallcrafting, or anything else then it's probably superior to tying up your time with a minimum wage employment.


Face it, unless you can retire on your own money, you are a slave or at least an indentured servant. Just cause you work a $100k year job doesnt mean you arent in a whole mess of hurt if you decide to stop going to work. Cause fools that they are, most people want their ice cream cone NOW and live well beyond their means. Few with the hypothetical $100k job live in an efficiency apt and bank $90k a year.

Dont get hung up on term "minimum wage". LOT people making $8 to $10 an hour and while not legal minimum wage, it aint significantly more. And gardening, smallcrafting, etc while productive supplements to a household, well they dont pay the rent. You have to have money too. Havent seen any landlords renting out efficency apartments for 50 pumpkins a month.... Electric company isnt bartering for 100 radishes... Car mechanic isnt working for 100 pounds of potatoes an hour. And alas, doctors dont barter for chickens anymore....


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

time said:


> I no longer suggest the military. I personally loved it, untill my kids were old enough to go to school. Um, I'm weird and wanted to fight so a combat mos was great. It was the VA that changed my mind. While it's great now and appreciated, I went 12 years struggling while disabled before VA came through. Happens to often to volunteer for possible injury and a 12 year fight to survive afterwards. I feel the VA is one that will get quiet budget cuts. No longer worth the risk IMO.
> 
> None of my family went to school after high school. All are working at decent paying jobs they like. Well, most are. I would not suggest college unless you have a particular dream to live. Like Ernie, I think they should do what makes them happy. Side jobs are awsome. Most in my family train and shoe horses on the side and it's a hobby they make some money with. Could do the same with many hobbies or turn them into a business.


Not to mention there are lot Iraq/Afghanistan vets coming back and finding nobody wants to hire them.


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## Honduras Trish (Nov 30, 2007)

Belfrybat said:


> Do you think she could manage on minimum wage and not receive outside assistance, even if she wasn't going to school?


I think she could feed and house herself . . . but I don't think she would have a car, so that would potentially affect her ability to keep the job. More importantly, she would only be surviving. In her current situation, she feels that she is moving forward, as she has hopes and plans for a better future.


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## oz in SC V2.0 (Dec 19, 2008)

Belfrybat said:


> Since most folks on this board are extra frugal, I'd really be interested in how you would fare if you were making minimum wage and what you would do (other than accepting outside help) to make ends meet? Or, to put it another way, what advice would you give to a HS graduate who's only option is to work for minimum wage?
> 
> I'm still working on my figures and will post them later today.


Well almost all the jobs available here ARE min. wage or barely above...but of course I am not working right now.

How would you survive?
You would hopefully have no debt,few if any payments and live....

Our 'rent' is $300/month,(that is land payment).
House is free and clear.
Food is out of control right now as we are trying to settle in to a new routine and new family member(MIL lives with us) but we used to live quite frugally and eat well.
The rest is gravy.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

IMO, this shows the problem with and failure of the government trying to set an artificial price on anything, it screws up the basic law of supply and demand.


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## steadfree (Mar 10, 2010)

I would say that a regular college degree is overrated, due to high cost of tuition and room expenses. Most college graduates in this economy are headed for min. wage and won't have the income to pay off loans---revolving debt. 
This economy has changed and now high school and college graduates are competing with older experienced college graduates looking for $9/hr jobs at home depot.
I have advised my family graduates to only go to college if they are seeking a degree that has a skill involved--nursing, mechanic, engineer, etc. Those that are seeking a management, liberal arts are going to be lost looking for jobs in their fields. 
I would definately recommend heading to the military for at least 2 years and obtain a skill that translate to the civilian world--computers, mechanic, engineer, etc. Plus you can obtain college benefits, health VA benefits, loans for a house or they make a career.
Living in homes with multiple generations is coming, no longer will home loans be handed out like candy and it will require more money down to obtain them.
20-60 years ago to land jobs it required "what you knew", now it requires "who you know"--times have changed.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Going to school is a good idea, but it is not always the best path. I know a few people who went to college, came out with over 100 grand in school debt, and could ether not get a decent job at all, or they got a job had it for a few years, and the economy tanked and they lost the job. Now they are living on unemployment, food stamps and government health care, while all the while still over 100 grand in debt.

I know someone who got a master's degree from Columbia University (that is top notch in a lot of people's imaginations) and this person can not get a job in their field, they couldnt even get a job in Barnes and Noble because they were too over qualified.

Some people get out of school, deeply in debt, get a decent job, get married (the wedding and honeymoon adding more debt to the pile) then they buy a house with a morgage (more debt to the pile), have kids (more debt to the pile), a fancy car (more debt). So, even though they went to school and got a good job and they look like they are doing well in life, they are not doing well, they are doing awful, they are profoundly in debt and all it would take is losing that good job for the whole house of cards to come falling down.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Possum living is a great book. Living on practically nothing was a decent book.

Living on min wage is tough but lots of people do it. Rent is the budget killer if you live on min wage. Rent would cost two thirds of your monthly wage. I am not sure of how to come up with a low income housing sollution, if I did, I would win a noble peace prize and be invited on the oprah show.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Bel, so the person on min wage pays about$36 a month in taxes?


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Some thoughts...

being a nanny often allows for housing...hrs off could land a small part-time job to bank money
Also a good person may find a live in position w/ elderly which would pay housing and offer time for part-time work too.
Work on a cruise ship...
work at a Nat'l park...


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

I think the best thing to do if you were on min wage, had very little skills, education, or had a medical condition (not all people working for min wage are lazy) the best thing to do, if you had a supportive family would be to live at home while you work for min.

If you make $1,124 after taxes like Bel said then you take out $424 of that money for gas and insurance for the car, some of it to help pay for family expenses, some for a trak phone, and some for a little fun for the month, and the remaining $700 you save, and every month you save $700. If you live that way for five years you will have saved $42,000, and with that money you can buy a little place to live flat out without a morgage. Once you have a place to live and it is paid for, you do not need to save that $700 a month. You can still work min wage and have a nice life for yourself, with no rent.
You would just have utilities and taxes to pay.

If an 18 year old did this, he or she would have their own home (a second hand moble home or a small house) by the time they are 23. If they worked summers at a younger age and saved all that money they would get their quicker or get a better place to live.
An 18 year old would still be covered under the parents insurance until they are 22 I think, after that they can look for low cost insurance. The off spring is considered a dependent until 23 I think, so the parents can claim the kid and get a break on their taxes. 

if it takes ten years, so what, the person will have saved $84,000 by then, will have helped pay some of the family's bills, and will have been around to help with family chores, and to get a little help and quidance from older family members.
it could work for everyone, if the family was sane and got along.

The person would still have to be very frugal. Second hand and low end clothes, no expensive gadgits and games unless they were in the budget, no fancy meals unless they were in the budget.


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## INFORG (Jun 21, 2011)

Another alternative I have been suggesting to young folks that want to see the world without a long term military contract, is volunteer opportunities. Even if you are not plugged in to some of these groups or religious organizations, there are a lot of places around the globe (even in the US) you can go to help the poor, build houses, work on infrastructure, teach English, etc.

Sometimes you have to pay your own airfare, but usually they house and feed you while you are there.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Well some go to school and get a degree in under water basket weaving and expect to get a high paying job a thousand miles from water .

Some in my family have degrees from good university's and are doing better than great .:clap: They don't blow their money either no new cars no payments on furniture . Got enough left to pay the lawn service guy and house keeper good too :clap::clap:


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

There are a lot of these "power couples" here in NYC where the husband and wife make half a million or a million dollars a year in their combined two income family. They usually have one kid who is rasied by a min wage paid nanny. 

(Can you imagine having that much money a year??? wow.)

Maybe a man and woman living on min wage could form their own little "power couple". Two people making min wage is better then just one.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

City Bound said:


> There are a lot of these "power couples" here in NYC where the husband and wife make half a million or a million dollars a year in their combined two income family. They usually have one kid who is rasied by a min wage paid nanny.
> 
> (Can you imagine having that much money a year??? wow.)
> 
> Maybe a man and woman living on min wage could form their own little "power couple". Two people making min wage is better then just one.


These have no children . The guy while in school worked closing at Mc Dees and a pawn shop on Saturday his wife worked since she was 16 as receptions at a Co her dad owned till they married . Big thing is they just don't waste money . Their house has three bathrooms an the upstairs sink is took apart plumber wanted $150.00 to fix it . Man said no.:grin:


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Ok, let's talk some farm economics here for a sec ...

Let's say you have a farm but don't have a job. You could get a minimum wage job, get paid, and buy some of your food.

BUT, it might be more beneficial to simply stay home and work on the farm. If you could milk a cow and supply all your own dairy needs, that would provide in excess of what you could have earned in a minimum wage "day shift". 

There's a young kid I know who is interested in knifemaking. I offered to teach him the process and let him use some of my equipment to turn out his own knives. I'm not in my shop 24/7 and so this seemed a good way to make use of the equipment when I'm not around and using it, particularly if he pays for his own raw materials and replaces the consumable shop supplies (sanding belts, grind wheels, etc.)

His parents told him no, he couldn't do it. He needed to go get a "real job" instead. So instead of getting to produce something with his own hands, sell it on his own, and then put away capital towards the future when he could open his own shop and afford his own equipment, he's now learning the valuable skill of taco folding at minimum wage for 20 hours per week. 

It was a whim of mine to take on an apprentice when I made the offer and there were a hundred reasons why it might not have worked out, but to have the thing scuttled because his parents would rather have him wrapping burritos at Taco Bell seems ridiculous.


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## Usingmyrights (Jan 10, 2011)

Honduras Trish said:


> ...to take EMT classes, so that she can get a better paying job. Then, she hopes to be able to afford a tiny apartment of her own, while still taking her college classes. It's one little step at a time.


Not to be a downer, but EMTs don't get paid all that much, at least not here. I want to say when I looked into it, it was about $9 an hour. I already have the first set of classes toward my EMT qualification and for $9 it wasn't worth it since no one is really looking for partime EMTs.



Gena said:


> I could do it in my area, provided I got 40 hours or close to it.
> 
> Rent a 1 bedroom apt $275
> Utilities $150 on average
> ...


This experiment also greatly depends on region. You're not going to find a $275 apartment here. I could get by on that much gas, is I lived in town and had a small car. As it is now, I'm using over $120 every 2 weeks.



Ernie said:


> There's a young kid I know who is interested in knifemaking. I offered to teach him the process and let him use some of my equipment to turn out his own knives. I'm not in my shop 24/7 and so this seemed a good way to make use of the equipment when I'm not around and using it, particularly if he pays for his own raw materials and replaces the consumable shop supplies (sanding belts, grind wheels, etc.)
> 
> His parents told him no, he couldn't do it. He needed to go get a "real job" instead. So instead of getting to produce something with his own hands, sell it on his own, and then put away capital towards the future when he could open his own shop and afford his own equipment, he's now learning the valuable skill of taco folding at minimum wage for 20 hours per week.


Thats a shame. If he became a good knifemaker, he could be making good money by opening up his own shop. His own hours, decent-good pay, something he's interested in, and that can be done from home.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I think starting a lawn care business with maybe nothing more than a lawn mower - and expand. I know some young men around here that have done QUITE well for themselves doing that - they started before end of schooling.

And what does he want to do? Examine all jobs with that within it. 

Figure out what someone needs and fill that need. 

Heck - there are two guys on the news, they did go to college, but they are repairing smart phones - self taught, 24 years old now and opening a 3rd store. 

So, my advice - probably get one of those part time minimum jobs - and find out what you really want to do - what you really want to achieve, not what others and society tell you you need to achieve and do.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

AngieM2 On the guy getting his lawn mower he has a check sent once a month year round for his services .

Bad thing i have hired some that aren't worth min. wage if you paid them for me ound::hysterical:


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Sawmill Jim said:


> AngieM2 On the guy getting his lawn mower he has a check sent once a month year round for his services .
> 
> Bad thing i have hired some that aren't worth min. wage if you paid them for me ound::hysterical:



I'd have to ask him - but I know that during fall, he's raking and mulching, during winter he decorates for Christmas for people, and the back to spring.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

AngieM2 said:


> I'd have to ask him - but I know that during fall, he's raking and mulching, during winter he decorates for Christmas for people, and the back to spring.


I was talking about the guy i know hiring his yard man . The yard has sprinklers and need some care all winter as the wife and i was there one Christmas and it was 93f . These yards aren't very big the wife and i have thought about going there and playing butler and maid .  The house is bigger than the yard :smack 3,300 foot living space


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## steadfree (Mar 10, 2010)

Angie i owned my own landscape business from scratch..I first bought a old snowthrower and started doing small driveways and saved enough to buy a used commercial mower and blower in early spring. I then used flyers on mailboxes and found some lawns to mow. First year 12 a week at $30 per lawn, then winter snow services for 15 customers at $30 per driveway around 10 times a season---slower so then I started throwing salt down on driveways and sidewalks to make extra when it didn't snow 2-3in. Second season had 22 lawn customers at $30 per lawn per week. But i did this in a better economy from 1998-2008 when I saw the crash coming and sold my business to another landscaper. Landscape business is hard manuel labor but it has a very low startup cost.....give it a try!

I also had to leave the fire service in 2007 as a career firefighter/paramedic..made good money. But private ambulances pay very little and employees work long hours and don't receive the respect they should. I think EMT-B's get a little above min. wage $9 and paramedics make around $12....that is not enough above the poverty line here in north eastern ill. We have high cost of living.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

I would love to start a small landscaping business, but it looks like the illegal aliens have that gig wrapped up. 

Shoveling snow is a good idea. I use to do that with friends when I was a kid and we made good money. 

helping people decorate for christmas is a good idea also.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

CityBound - AL has a good many illegal aliens and legal aliens - and he still did/does very well. So the aliens are no excuse not to do well.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

You are right.


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## forfreedom (Dec 3, 2008)

Ernie said:


> One of the books that inspired me was:
> 
> http://www.possumliving.net/
> 
> "Possum Living: How to Live Well with No Job and (almost) No Money"


I read this book, extremely enlightning, but you've gotta have guts to pull it. Most people, yours truly as well, are attached to at least some of the comforts. In my neck of the woods property taxes alone are about $1,400 per year, and if you forgo electricity you'd suffer some miserable summer time. 

Bottom line, my heart wants to do that, but my outer self says, not ready.


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

We are living on a part time minimum wage income with a family of 10, though we do get food help and my children are covered under medicaid. We do not use the medicaid unless it's really needed though. I did not use it to birth my baby, dh delivered her at home but we are using it to take her in to the specialist for a lump that I found on her chest and seen by her doc. That was the 2nd time she had been in to the clinic. 1st time was at 2 weeks and this time at 6 1/2months. We really try not to use it if we don't have too.

The advice that I would give would be not to give up on the types of things these guys are talking about. Where theres a will theres a way  Don't let anyone tell you that you won't make it.

You don't really need what people say you need lol. A dryer? nope! A microwave, cell phone, new car, new clothes, disposable diapers and wipes? tv? not so much!

We pay for the house, taxes and insurance
gas for the vehicles
electric and propane (which could be eliminated if we had the set up for that) 
a house phone w no long distance and calling card
The animals a small amt of feed, which all provide us some sort of service  
There are a few other things but these are most of them, and really more than what a person HAS to have but it does make it easier and to have internet actually saves us $ even with paying the bill. If we lived in or near town I might use theres? not sure but here that wouldn't work at all. 

It's not easy and theres lots of talking with the people that have to be paid to juggle things sometimes but it all works out. 

I'd say invest in a hen or two and buy beans, rice and spices ect. to stretch the food budget too. You can save lots of $ by working harder physically alot of times. Like gardening, making your own bread ect. 

There's a verse in the Bible about food and raiment and being content... while we need some things and other things society expects us to have, I think what is "normal" in society and what is needed are two different things....

I'm rambling! Sorry!


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## missyann100 (Aug 16, 2011)

Forlane said:


> We tried the living on the GA/Tn border thing near my family. 3 bedroom house on 3/4 acre $600 a month, slightly smaller house here in Cali on 1/8th acre is $1250.
> 
> As someone else said, living well on minimum wage definitely depends on what part of the country you live in. Sometimes I wish I had gone to college for a degree. Then I come to my senses and realize how much I enjoy being able to live with family on a limited budget.


I see your in salinas. I am confused. You'd prefer living back here?


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## missyann100 (Aug 16, 2011)

City Bound said:


> If an 18 year old did this, he or she would have their own home (a second hand moble home or a small house) by the time they are 23.


Don't you wish you had all this knowledge when you were 18? :grin:


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## Forlane (Jul 17, 2010)

missyann100 said:


> I see your in salinas. I am confused. You'd prefer living back here?


Yup, although at this point living with MIL is the only thing keeping her sane, without us my SIL would bankrupt her.

When we lived in GA we were working on our business, unfortunately we couldn't make it there so we came back to California. A couple of months after we got back to California our business started booming , to a 6 figure monthly income. After ebay/paypal destroyed our business we moved in with MIL

Had we not had our own business in GA we probably would have stayed, but at the time we were mainly worrying about it instead of where we were living.


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## Sandhills (Jun 15, 2004)

My son is doing quite well. He started out making minimum wage a couple years ago and is now making about $9 an hour. His apartment costs $200 a month and he has bought his car and paid cash. He initially bought a cheap bike from Walmart to get around town and saved his money for a car. He has made several other large purchases and paid cash when most people would have got a loan or used a credit card. I'm quite proud of him. He has considered getting a better paying job but it would mean moving to a larger town or driving a considerable distance. He likes his life the way it is and has chosen to stay where he is for the time being.


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## ghmerrill (Feb 22, 2011)

I agree with several posters that entrepreneurialism is the best route... We had a financial situation come up 4 years ago- lost some income- about $100 a month. We live on a pretty strict budget, so that really was going to hurt us. I decided that I wasn't going to let that happen. I love gardening, and collect bamboo plants.... Well, all it took was knocking on a couple doors that had bamboo outgrowing their yard, and I was in business. Shovel and a craigslist ad earned me an extra $15,000 that year, I worked about 6 hours a week at it, for 4 months in the spring and early summer. 

If you are knowledgeable in an area, have passion about something, or figure out a way to do something better than others, you can make whatever income you need. When you work for someone else, you can never make more than the job is worth.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

missyann100 said:


> Don't you wish you had all this knowledge when you were 18? :grin:


I wish I had that knowledge at ten. I would have saved all my paper route money, birthday money, and for every chirstmas I would have asked for some homesteading tools (hahaha)....and from reading this survival section of the site I would have learned to have saved all those silver coins that use so freely flow back then (I use to think a quarter was just a quarter, silly me.) instead of buying kit-kats, hostess cakes, and bazooka bubble gum.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

ne prairiemama said:


> There's a verse in the Bible about food and raiment and being content... while we need some things and other things society expects us to have, I think what is "normal" in society and what is needed are two different things....
> 
> I'm rambling! Sorry!


I am not sure which one, but proverbs talks a lot about being frugal and sensible with our time, money, and family lives.

The book of wisdom is basicly about finding balance and contentment in all areas of life. It uses the analogy of "trying to cath the wind" to illustrate what it is like to chase a wealthy lifestyle, and recomends instead to live a balanced life with your family with only enough wealth to provide for the basics in life.

If you think about it is true, we are happy when we have what we need. If we are hungry for one burger we are pleased by that burger, if someone places five burgers on our plate when we only want one and forces us to eat them, we are not happy campers.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

forfreedom said:


> I read this book, extremely enlightning, but you've gotta have guts to pull it. Most people, yours truly as well, are attached to at least some of the comforts. In my neck of the woods property taxes alone are about $1,400 per year, and if you forgo electricity you'd suffer some miserable summer time.
> 
> Bottom line, my heart wants to do that, but my outer self says, not ready.


For Free, check out the video about Freeman and her book on you-tube, it is great. it is old footage filmed for a news show, it shows inside her house and all kind of other cool stuff.

Freeman and her dad lived pretty well on almost no money. I get the impression that she was the brains behind the operation and her dad was the one who came up with the idea to live so renounced from modern splendors.

You can have a job making 200 grand a year and still live possum, all that would mean is that more of that 200 grand would stay in your pocket and not some strangers.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

forfreedom said:


> I read this book, extremely enlightning, but you've gotta have guts to pull it. Most people, yours truly as well, are attached to at least some of the comforts. In my neck of the woods property taxes alone are about $1,400 per year, and if you forgo electricity you'd suffer some miserable summer time.
> 
> Bottom line, my heart wants to do that, but my outer self says, not ready.


Well, as she points out in the early part of the book ... everyone's comfort zone is somewhere between the riches of Howard Hughes and the poverty of Diogenes living in an abandoned wine cask.

You've got to find your own comfort level. I like my comforts as well and I'm willing to work for them. What I'm NOT willing to do is to ever catch myself saying, "I couldn't imagine living without air conditioning, television, or insert-modern-convenience-here!"

There's nothing wrong with using a dishwasher or a power tool or whatever. You simply cannot let yourself become a slave to them. Evaluate your appliances and your lifestyle and ask yourself "is this worth the giving up some or all of my freedom in order to have?"


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

I agree, and explore alternatives. You mentioned powertools..powertools are great but they are an example of, like you said, of "becoming a slave to them". A lot manual wood working tools work better then the powertools. A hand plane is better then an electric plane, a hand saw is better then a power saw in some applications, and rasps and files are 1,000 times better then sand paper and belt sanders in most applications. I wasted a lot of money on sand paper before i realized that. 

Maybe a fan is cheaper then an AC. Isnt it silly how people jack the AC up full blast and then sleep under winter blankets to stay warm. I know that can be a pleasure, but it is a waste of money. With a fan, I found that you are hot at the start when you lay down to sleep, but if you try to relax and remain motionless with no blanket on you, then as you start fall a sleep your body temp drops and when it does you most likely will be rolling over to grab that blanket beside you because you are cold. I use to wake up in the morning freezing, from only a fan and an open window. I know you folks that live down south have worse heat then us up here, but my point was just to explore and try alternatives, they could save you money.

Well, I guess that was some thread drift.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

City Bound said:


> I agree, and explore alternatives. You mentioned powertools..powertools are great but they are an example of, like you said, of "becoming a slave to them". A lot manual wood working tools work better then the powertools. A hand plane is better then an electric plane, a hand saw is better then a power saw in some applications, and rasps and files are 1,000 times better then sand paper and belt sanders in most applications. I wasted a lot of money on sand paper before i realized that.
> 
> Well, I guess that was some thread drift.


Heh. When working with knife handles I tend to use the bench grinder until I've gotten the wood down to a reasonable size and then work the rest of the shape out with files and rasps. It's gotten so that power tools annoy me in some unexplainable way. Too much noise and vibration and it intrudes into my mental space, perhaps.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Noise, vibrations, weight, and those dang chords.


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## groundhogII (Nov 6, 2008)

Someone mentioned the book Scratch Beginnings by Adam Shepard,good read and relevant to this discussion.
Someone also mentioned Nickled and Dimed,good read only if you want to hear a liberal wine about how you can't make it on low income in this country.
Living Well on Practically Nothing by Edward Romney,another great read.Pelenaka's idea of living in the woods close to work sounds like something Mr.Romney discusses in his book.
Possum Living,another classic.Read it free online several years ago.Don't think that is possible now since the book is back in print.Can still see the YouTube videos and they are very good.


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

City Bound said:


> Bel, so the person on min wage pays about$36 a month in taxes?


A bit more. I made a mistake in my initial calcs as I deducted half the FICA before figuring the taxable income. The taxable income is before FICA. My new figures show a FICA of $1138 (the employer pays the other half), a standard deduction from the form 1040EZ of $9350. That leaves a taxable income of $5730.00. According to the chart on the 1040EZ the tax is $573.00, which is $47.75 a month.


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

I guess it depends where you live, but around here, it is near to impossible to find an employer who pays benefits except the school district. So, yes, many people work at or a little above minimum wage 40 hours a week. And unemployment is rampant. I saw some figures for our county a year or so ago, and unemployment was 10%, but that didn't count the folks who have given up even looking for a job. A friend of mine works at an insurance agency as a customer service rep for the grand salary of $8.50 an hour. And is glad to have the job. She is in her 40s, so not a young person. 

I needed someone to do heavy yard-type work and paid $8.00 an hour -- 32 hours a week for 2 months. I was innundated with folks wanting the job. The only "benefits" I paid was a jar of homemade pickles or jam and a loaf of homemade bread with his paycheck at the end of each week. The 50's something guy working for me was blown away that I would do even that small thing for him. 

I keep saying it, but times are hard and getting harder.


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## demeter (Jul 15, 2010)

Something similar happened here, Belfrybat. This past winter a little strip mall in the next town put out the word they needed some folks to come and shovel snow and ice from their parking lot. Just bring your own shovel and they would pay $10.00 an hour for maybe half a days work.
They were practically stampeded with people looking to work and had to turn away droves.

Demeter


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Bel,they are going to get a lot worse, a lot. We are headed for some serious dark times. We may be headed for ww3 the way the global economy is looking.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Belfrybat said:


> A bit more. I made a mistake in my initial calcs as I deducted half the FICA before figuring the taxable income. The taxable income is before FICA. My new figures show a FICA of $1138 (the employer pays the other half), a standard deduction from the form 1040EZ of $9350. That leaves a taxable income of $5730.00. According to the chart on the 1040EZ the tax is $573.00, which is $47.75 a month.


Still not so bad.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

groundhogII said:


> Someone mentioned the book Scratch Beginnings by Adam Shepard,good read and relevant to this discussion.
> Someone also mentioned Nickled and Dimed,good read only if you want to hear a liberal wine about how you can't make it on low income in this country.
> Living Well on Practically Nothing by Edward Romney,another great read.Pelenaka's idea of living in the woods close to work sounds like something Mr.Romney discusses in his book.
> Possum Living,another classic.Read it free online several years ago.Don't think that is possible now since the book is back in print.Can still see the YouTube videos and they are very good.


Living on practically nothing inspired me. I love the shanty houses he teaches you how to build. They can be pretty cozy inside from what the pictures show. I would live in one of those if I had the land to build it on.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Its funny but there are jobs around here....my kids get work for $8-10 an hour...more than they can do...daughter has just lined up a babysitting job for a next summer up near my parents...(she does double duty, taking care of my parents and the kid) 
plenty of dairy farm work which often includes housing...Maine is pretty laid back living.

my mom went shopping and asked for a certain cut of meat (she is fussy as she used to work for a butcher) the butcher chased her thru the store begging her to come work for him...she's 70yo and said no thanks I'm enjoying my retirement...


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Pillow, do you live in Maine or do you live in China?


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## beaglebiz (Aug 5, 2008)

China is a city in Maine


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

I have never failed to find a job  A position is what i always wanted :runforhills:


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