# Stupid Inbreeding Questions



## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Totaly confused on the effects of inbreeding. I need to decide what to do, as I have only had one ram (registered) and he went to the salebarn last fall. I have 11 ewes/ewe lambs, 3 of which are not related to the ram.


Inbreeding
OK, sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes pretty bad, sometimes birth defect terrible?

I have a monster katahdin ram lamb, that is filling out nicely and should be good to go in the fall(his mom was one of the 3 outsiders). I could sell him and buy and outside ram, maybe even a regi$tered one, or trade him for new blood. Both options require time and/or money, both in relatively short supply

I have read where some just use a good ram, already from the flock. Is this somewhat common?

What are your inputs on this strategy. If 2012 is a sucessful lamb year, I'd look more selective genetics, once again.

But on the other hand, I don't want to throw a "wrench into the works", for the 4 years of effort put into this flock. I still learning and have had more than enough "hard knocks".


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## VA Shepherd (Dec 26, 2010)

I think this is one of those that really comes down to what you are comfortable with; everybody's got an opinion. As it was explained to me, inbreeding (or line breeding, for the euphemism) is not an awful thing in and of itself. It does happen in the wild, until a new ram replaces the old alpha. What is key in line breeding situations is that you have to be willing to cull mercilessly. Line breeding (over many generations) is how new breeds develop, but in the wild, natural selection would take care of any... problems. Doing it for a generation or two won't hurt anything, again assuming you cull any that show less than ideal characteristics. But where that line is drawn is up to you. 

I have several ewes whose father was also their mother's father, and they are beautiful sheep, but the guy I bought them from culled a high % of the ewes born (he selected for parasite resistance and easy lambing, too, so there were other factors). 

There's my 2 cents....


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I personally wont bred that close from experience, I bought an 7 month old ewe and named her Butterball cause she was so fat. Come to find out she was fat for a reason...4 1/2 months later she had a baby ram. That was totally unexpected, needless to say her father from the other farm had her and the lamb now has rumen problems...he throws up all the time..everywhere. I know many that do inbred...but I will not.

Just my opinion though


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

I have not really gotten any of this figured out yet, so here is another question, before i ask the breeder, I purchased the original ram from.

Is it likely that if I purchased another ram lamb from the same breeder, 3 years later, would it be genetically close enough to be considered inbreeding, of a similar level as the original ram?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Is it likely that if I purchased another ram lamb from the same breeder, 3 years later, would it be genetically close enough to be considered inbreeding, of a similar level as the original ram?


If he uses more than one Ram, he should be able to provide one from another bloodline.

"Inbreeding" really isn't all that bad a practice as long as you're willing to eat the mistakes and only rebreed the near perfect ones.

If you're doing them just for meat, it makes little difference at all.

It's fine to breed Father/Daughter, Mother/Son, but not recommended to breed Brother/Sister


Some of my finest lambs were the result of Father/Daughter breeding

This one is less than 90 days old and that's his Mom behind him:


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Quick tutorial on genetics and linebreeding/inbreeding. Not done it with sheep but have with horses, dogs and rabbits and the basics are the same.

Inbreeding does not 'cause' defects as it cannot pull in genes for a problem that does not already exist within the bloodline. If you are outcrossing, you just may not see it because there is a wider selection of genes.

Extreme example: if you breed full brother x full sister the genetics in those two animals will be nearly identical. The gene choices are limited to a single 'pattern' if you want to call it that.

If you breed two animals that have no common ancestors within 3 or 4 generations, you have one full set of genes in each animal and therefor the gene choices for the offspring are double that of the brother x sister cross.

This means that any defects within the bloodlines are twice as likely to show up in the brother x sister cross as in the total outcross because the nature has twice the number of genes to choose from.

If you are willing to cull very severely, inbreeding can be a way to determine what problems you may have within a particular bloodline and establish a very consistent breeding population.


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## Narshalla (Sep 11, 2008)

I guess the real question is, what are you breeding for?

If these were goats or cows, and all you needed to do is freshen them this year and were willing to eat _all_ the babies next year, then I think that keeping your selected stud would work. After all, a bad breeding has a likely hood of producing a bad baby, but that will not effect the quality of the mother, just the lamb.

So with these sheep, what are you breeding for?

I am friends with an alpaca breeder who spins the wool, and they breed for wool and conformation. They were rather upset last year, because the male they wanted was born, and his fleece color/quality is as close to perfect as they've ever seen, but he fails big time when it comes to conformation, so he's been cut so he will never be a father, but they're keeping him in the flock for his fleece. His half-sister (same father) has good conformation, but her wool is easily identifiable as inferior, and it is especially obvious this year. After sheering, they will cull her. The females were unrelated to the stud and each other, so this was just how the dice rolled.

Again, what are you breeding for?

I helped at a farm where one of the renters was breeding horses. The man's stated intention (yes, I talked to him, so this was from the horse's mouth so to speak,) was to have as many horses as he could, so he bred every mare, every time, regardless of temperament, conformation, or anything else. Some of those horses were good. Some of those horses were okay. Some . . . 

So, I'd say that if you were breeding for numbers, you're good to go.

If you are breeding for fleece, you have to evaluate what your ram has thrown, especially father/daughter pairings or, if you have had him long enough, father/granddaughter pairings. If the lambs you have gotten so far have shown few or no negatives, then using his son this year, because you don't have the $$$ for a new one, could be a good choice -- provided you are willing to cull heavily!

So, lay out, in words (you don't have to tell us, just yourself,) your breeding goals, primary, secondary, and tertiary. What are your hard-line, must-be cull standards, and what will you let live but never breed?

Bear in mind though, you will have to cull at some point in time, and it is better that the bar be set high and you remove the traits you don't want early.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

I don't have a large flock and it's size is limited to available pasture, so I shouldn't be doing a lot of culling, unless a good ewe develops problems, or eventually just gets too old.

Like to think I'm at a point of whether I just want lambs, or to start building "pedigrees", for the flock. There are no Katahdin flocks in the local area (not many other breeds for that matter, either) None are shown in two nearby county 4H fairs and I am trying to promote the breed for club lambs. 

There recently is more interest in sheep, as lamb prices climb and cattle feed getting more expensive, but with shearing costs, maybe more will be intested in hair sheep.

Since I am nowhere near an expert, at determineing what is a good lamb, so keeping breeding variables to a minimun, will work for a while.

I just talked with the guy I purchased the original ram from and he has some unrelated rams available, for just a few bucks more, than I can sell the ram lamb, I have now (if Easter prices stay up)

Thanks for everyones input.


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