# Ammo in a fire ??



## hayzor (Dec 8, 2003)

This will sound like a strange question â here goes. 
Is ammo that discharges in a fire very dangerous? (dangerous is a subjective word) Will the exploding ammo behave like a round fired from a gun?? 
About a year ago, we were burning some junk and there were some 22 shells in one of the boxes (without our knowledge) that was tossed into the fire. We were burning in a 55 gal drum. The shells started going off and we ran for cover. The next morning I went through the ashes and found several of the shells â all split down the side. I donât recall the condition of the lead, but there were no holes or dents in the 55 gal drum, which was not very thick steel. I was surprised that there were no dents, but then thought it made some sense. The lead when seperated from the shell will not be forced forward at a significant speed because the shell would split and the bullet would not be propelled forward. It would probably separate from the shell in a spinning motion. I expect the exploding ammo to behave more like a very powerful firecracker than a round fired from a gun. 
A 22 round fired from a pistol or rifle would certainly penetrate the drum or at a minimum dent it. 
Note: I donât plan on testing the theory, Iâm just a little curious if others have experienced a similar thing
Thanks,
Hayzor


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

It's the pressure produced by the burning propellant contained inside the cartridge which is in turn containedinside the firearms chamber that pushes a bullet out of the barrel at high velocity. In a loose ammo situation there's no containment so there's no contained pressure to impart velocity. You get a popping noise and the bullet pushes out or the cartridge splits and that's about the end of it. Not dangerous. Firemen get a video that shows this in action which demonstrates there is no particular threat from loose ammunition in a fire.


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

Sometimes there IS sufficient velocity achieved to cause severe damage... to your eyes especially, With a heavy crimp a brass case usually flies farther than the bullet, depending which weighs less usually... to say it is not dangerous is simply ignorant. not likely dangerous would be more realistic. 

I would not be in fear of ammo in a fire but I would respect it. Eye n ear protection is a good idea.


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## hayzor (Dec 8, 2003)

Thanks for the responses - That confirms what I thought. 
Obviously not to be taken lightly either.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

I'd just tell the F.D. to wait at the end of the block...................
Seriously, I was told pretty much the same thing.
I think fuel cans would pose nmore of a theat.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

There's be no need for ear protection even with .30-06. I know first hand! Cousin was deer hunting when it was raining. Coat was soaked so he hung it beside a wood stove in our great-uncle's cabin while we ate supper in another. Coat caught fire with a pocket full of .30-06 rounds. Almost didn't recognize the pops as they weren't much louder than a Black Cat firecracker. Since there's no bullet flying out of a tube faster than the speed of sound, there's no sonic boom. Hence the cartridge becomes no more powerful than a firecracker with an equal amount of powder in it. 

If there is a danger, it's not from the bullet but rather the casing. Even then, it's only if a piece of the brass shatters and is propelled away from the explosion. Otherwise, they're just going to split clean 99 times out of 100 or better. 

Martin


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 19, 2008)

YES! Ammo in a fire is VERY dangerous. We almost lost a soldier in our battalion while driving past a burning Iraqi T-55 tank during Desert Storm. The AK-47 rounds cooked off and one of them hit one of our guys in the side. It was basically just like a gunshot wound to the gut. He almost died.


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 19, 2008)

That having been said, I would not worry very much about .22 rounds.

We had a guy also loose an eye and get a horrible facial scar on a training mission when he threw a lithium radio battery into a fire and it exploded ...


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

hfwarner3 said:


> YES! Ammo in a fire is VERY dangerous. We almost lost a soldier in our battalion while driving past a burning Iraqi T-55 tank during Desert Storm. The AK-47 rounds cooked off and one of them hit one of our guys in the side. It was basically just like a gunshot wound to the gut. He almost died.


In order for that to happen, the cartridge has to be totally contained in some manner. In that case, the casing becomes a rocket launcher and will propel the bullet. Otherwise, the power of the explosion is spent on whatever is the least resistance. In all cases with small arms ammunition, that is the casing.

Martin


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## THETOOLMAN (Feb 15, 2008)

the brass bursts & the lead stays put... believe me I do it for fun in my campfire.the schrapnell from the brass might hit you. I saw a primer come out of a shotgun shell in a fire one night & put a whelp on a guys leg.


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## hfwarner3 (Feb 19, 2008)

Paquebot said:


> In order for that to happen, the cartridge has to be totally contained in some manner. In that case, the casing becomes a rocket launcher and will propel the bullet. Otherwise, the power of the explosion is spent on whatever is the least resistance. In all cases with small arms ammunition, that is the casing.


I wasn't there, so I don't know all the details. All I know is what was in the message I had to transmit to the Red Cross to communicate to the guy's family. 

Now the lithium ion battery thing, I was about 200 meters away when that happened. That guy was just an idiot. He threw the battery into a burn barrel ON PURPOSE to see it explode, so he was standing right next to the burn barrel looking down into it when the battery went boom. Darwin Award runner-up in my book...


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

In the case of the Iraq injury, in all likelihood it was not the exploding round which caused it. It is indeed possible and explainable. It would have been from an earlier exploded round which left a pile of shrapnel and bullets still in the magazine. An exploding round beneath the assortment would then have propelled an earlier bullet out just like from a mortar tube. That's why it's best to stay away from a large quantity of rounds burning in a small confined area. The bits and pieces of the early rounds are blown all around by later rounds and those are the ones that can bite you.

Martin


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## derekv (Jan 31, 2007)

they tested this on mythbusters. right up to a 50 cal round and then casing slpits, they also threw in hairsprays cans and the bottom just shot out of those and went flying with a flame, very cool to watch. then they threw a keg with about 12% left in it and that was the biggest boom of the show.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

When I was a kid I found a 20 ga duck load. I've been a 12 ga shooter since the age of 8 so I got my pellet rifle and shot the primer of the shell from about 20 feet. I was in the prone position and heard and felt that empty hull whistle over my head in road gear. The shot and wad were laying right where they started.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Ed Norman said:


> When I was a kid I found a 20 ga duck load. I've been a 12 ga shooter since the age of 8 so I got my pellet rifle and shot the primer of the shell from about 20 feet. I was in the prone position and heard and felt that empty hull whistle over my head in road gear. The shot and wad were laying right where they started.


That's how that would work. The power of an explosion always takes the route of least resistance. The weight and mass of the shot acted as a solid wall to direct the explosion away from it. Just like when we'd use blasting powder to blow rocks. If we didn't pack the hole good after setting the powder and fuse, all we'd get is a slightly larger hole. 

Martin


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## nathan104 (Nov 16, 2007)

Well, in response to the soldier injured by an AK47 round while driving by a burned out tank, the round was probably chambered in a burning ak-47. If a round is locked in the chamber and the rifle in a fire, then the fire wil ignite the powder and will have the same result as the primer being struck by the firing pin. The powder explodes and the compression will shoot the bullet down the chamber and out the barrel. I know that has happened before.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

When I was a kid, we tried burning ammo many times, and never even heard a pop when they were in the burning barrel.


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## damoc (Jul 14, 2007)

very dangerous saw a 308 blank round that a kid threw in the fire a small piece of brass went through another kids ear and into his neck a small way.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

i am with martin , on the logic and the experience 
I worked for a guy whos shop burned down , the paint cans made a larger bang than any of the many thousands of rounds of ammo that were inside 

mostly what happens is that the bullet just pops off with nothing to contain it and get the bullet moving 

yes they could be dangerous , at a close distance , or if they were black powder cartrages but if it were a major concern the fire department would ask people before going into fight fires if there was any amunition in the house. many i don't have a % of american houses have one or more firearms 

modern powered is a propelant like the stuff in modle rocket engines 

in my home town many years ago we had someone 2 young men try to pipe bomb the dairy queen (the ice cream place) they took a brick of 22 shells and pulled the bullets off and dumped the powder into a metal pipe with end caps one end cap had a hole for the wick drilled in it they lit it and ran it was a heavy modle rocket with no controll surfaces it bounced around broke some windows and if i recall became lodged between a refrigerator case and the wall but aside from broken glass and dented dairy cases no explosion the pipe remained in tact 

also american rifleman did an article on this some years ago and explained that the majority of moden cartages bake off ither the bullet if all lead melts enough that presure is released or the bullet pops off but does not go far

however i make it a point not to argue with veterans , so thanks you for your service


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

I have had experience with burning ammunition. A few years ago a friend and I cleaned out a house that we were going to move into. The house had a few .22 and .45 cal bullets plus a few rounds of 30.06 scattered about the place. After we finished cleaning out the house the junk was sitting on the front lawn. We threw the bullets into the fridge and lit the whole works on fire. Ten minutes later the bullets started going off and we ducked behind an old couch. A few of the bullets went through the fridge and a couple went into the couch. Neither one of us got hit luckily. After that I never threw bullets into a fire and now since I own a few guns I wish I would have kept the ammo instead of burning it.

My brother once found out what happens when you forget that there are cans of spray paint in the camp fire. The plastic nozzle burnt off and the can went shooting like a rocket right into his calf. He had a perfect circle branded into his leg from the bottom of the spray can. Might sound a little mean but my friend and I got a good laugh out of it.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

There seems to be a lot of misconception and speculation here .
We have the theory of the lead melting ok lets look at that pure lead melts at roughly 620.4 degrees F. hardened lead slightly higher around 740f.
Now lets look at the ignition temp of the powder which does vary though in most cases rages from 700-800 degrees .
So far we can determine that a lead bullet will begin to melt prior to the ignition point of the powder. 
Now we add yet another variable the ignition point of the primer which given the chemical make up of most modern priners is around 685.4Â°F . Putting it slightly below the melting point of hardened lead.
so it would seem burning shells with lead bullets would be a minimum hazard.
OK but let agree not the wisest practice.
Now we must look at the full copper jacketed bullets which are a completely different beast, As the ignition point of both the powder and the primer are well below the melting point of the brass or copper. 
One must also consider the case strength . 
Military brass tends to have a slightly thicker case and there for will tend to allow more pressure to build before rupturing. At which point the weakest point will give , be that the crimp around the bullet or the case side its self.
Ok if you havent been geeked out enough yet .
in the case of a full metal jacket and heavy brass case the danger will be determined by the simple physics of least resistance. 
consider though that a bullet traveling at below 400ftper second can still penetrate flesh I do believe I would pass on taking the chance


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