# Squab anyone?



## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

In addition to layers and broilers, my DH and I are considering other bird-brained projects  

Given our extreme cold climate, we were looking at ducks, geese, and (maybe) guineas... and then got to thinking about squab (dove/pigeon) since they can easily be raised in an indoor/outdoor pen where the winter won't harm them as much. Plus they seem to be pretty prolific little breeders (a dozen pairs would easily give us a meal a week). Not to mention that a squab is nearly the perfect size for our cat so we can save the bunnies for the dog :goodjob:

Just wondering if anyone here has any experience with raising dove/pigeon for meat, and if so whether they had any good hatchery contacts? The doves I'm seeing at hatcheries seem to specialize in flyer, racer and roller breeds not the the chunky meat breeds.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Those are not doves you are seeing at hatcheries. They are pigeons. Really not that much difference in them though.
Buying from a hatchery is not a real good idea. They will charge you at least double what you could buy them for elsewhere.
Kings, runts, texas pioneer are some types of meat pigeons. There are a few others that are just about as good. Even the racer, flyer, and roller breeds are good eating. The giant homer is a good meat breed. You can eat just about any kind of pigeon or dove. Pigeons are just bigger.
Most common dove would be the ringneck but I don't think you will have much success with them inAlaska.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Yeah, ringnecks are a little on the small side for Alaska. I have seen some wild doves here, I think they were mourning doves from their call, but they were pretty darned fat in any case. Most of the smaller birds have to be fat bodied to survive up here... even the chickadees and finches look like winged golf balls LOL.

We do have ptarmigan and grouse wild, so maybe quail would be a better domestic option. I was just thinking that squab would work well since they've been raised in subarctic Norway and Sweden for centuries in lofts and cotes. I just need to find a source for my starter stock.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

We have been planning on venturing to a dove-cote this next year ourselves.

A friend asked me last week dove or pigeon? I do not know yet which one.

Opinions?


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

> Pigeons and doves constitute the bird family Columbidae within the order Columbiformes, which include some 300 species of near passerines. In general terms "dove" and "pigeon" are used somewhat interchangeably. *In ornithological practice, there is a tendency for "dove" to be used for smaller species and "pigeon" for larger ones, but this is in no way consistently applied,* and historically the common names for these birds involve a great deal of variation between the terms "dove" and "pigeon." This family occurs worldwide, but the greatest variety is in the Indomalaya and Australasia ecozones. *Young doves and pigeons are called "squabs."*


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dove



> The Domestic Pigeon (Columba livia f. domestica) was derived from the Rock Pigeon....
> For commercial meat production a breed of large white pigeon, named "King pigeon," has been developed by selective breeding. Breeds of Pigeons developed for their meat are collectively known as Utility Pigeons.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_Pigeon


> There are certain breeds of pigeons which at one time were raised for utility purposes but which are now raised for show purposes[3]. Fanciers usually distinguish between the two sub-breeds by appending the word "show" or "utility" to the name of the breed. For example, there are show kings and utility kings and they are two different breeds of pigeon. The show breeds can still be used for squabbing purposes.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_pigeon

So, I guess here in the US at least, we're using "pigeons" and keep them in "lofts"; while Europeans use "doves" and keep them in "cotes"... even if they're using the same species and calling the breeds something different


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ET1 SS said:


> We have been planning on venturing to a dove-cote this next year ourselves.
> 
> A friend asked me last week dove or pigeon? I do not know yet which one.
> 
> Opinions?


It will matter what you want them for. If you plan on free flying them you will be limited to pigeons. Doves will usually leave.
If you want larger birds, again pigeons.
If you want color, either would look good.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

PlicketyCat said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dove
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_Pigeon
> ...


No, there are many different species of doves in the U.S. 
There are also many breeds of pigeons both here and in Europe.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

> In ornithological practice, there is a tendency for "dove" to be used for smaller species and "pigeon" for larger ones, but this is in no way consistently applied....


That's the sticking point. There are species we call pigeons and species we call doves, and breeds within those species that may or may not be called the same. It's the conventional naming that's confusing. But scientifically speaking, they're within the same family with very little non-superficial difference between the species and subspecies.

And then there are "pigeons" which aren't... like Chuckar Pigeons which are actually partridges, same as grouse and quail (Family TETRAONIDAE).

But anyway, I digress...

in the US, meat squab is typically a utility breed in a "pigeon" species.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

you might want to ask on the back yard chicken
forum.http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/
i got a lot of good information there. like the giant runts are really just a show breed. they're huge but slow breeders & mediocre parents. so when i give it a go i'm planning on female TX pioneer & male giant runts to try to split the difference. i also plan on keeping some feral pairs to foster so i can get more squabs per breeding pair.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Thanks for the tip Pops -- seems they have a dedicated Pigeon and Dove sub-forum. Excellent.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I have read about, and then toured ancient Israelite dove-cotes commonly called âcolumbariums". Dug below grade, caverns with walls of small nests cut in the stone walls. Turtle doves were raised and harvested for sacrifices in the temple. An opening to the sky allowed the 'doves' access, to leave to forage for their food; to return to maintain their nests.

I lived in Scotland, where I saw fairly old dove-cotes left from the Pict tribes from before Roman invaded. Like stone igloos [but taller] with openings near the top. Where the picts raised 'doves' for squab.

I lived in Italy, where I saw old [but newer] dove-cotes [probably no older than Roman] scattered about on isolated hill sides. Again the loose-stacked stone design as borrowed from the Picts, a round tall igloo with an opening near the top.

Now I am near finishing building a garage with a partial second story, where I plan to make a dove-cote of my own.

I envision a few dozen nesting boxes in a room with small door-knob holes for birds to enter/exit. I need a bird that can go outside to forage for food, and maintain a nest in a place secure from wild predators.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

PlicketyCat said:


> That's the sticking point. There are species we call pigeons and species we call doves, and breeds within those species that may or may not be called the same. It's the conventional naming that's confusing. But scientifically speaking, they're within the same family with very little non-superficial difference between the species and subspecies.
> 
> And then there are "pigeons" which aren't... like Chuckar Pigeons which are actually partridges, same as grouse and quail (Family TETRAONIDAE).
> 
> ...


You are getting quite a few birds mixed up.
There isn't a bird called chuckar pigeon. They aren't pigeons at all and not even called that.
There are many species of doves and many breeds of pigeons. There is a big difference in species and breeds.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ET1 SS said:


> I have read about, and then toured ancient Israelite dove-cotes commonly called âcolumbariums". Dug below grade, caverns with walls of small nests cut in the stone walls. Turtle doves were raised and harvested for sacrifices in the temple. An opening to the sky allowed the 'doves' access, to leave to forage for their food; to return to maintain their nests.
> 
> I lived in Scotland, where I saw fairly old dove-cotes left from the Pict tribes from before Roman invaded. Like stone igloos [but taller] with openings near the top. Where the picts raised 'doves' for squab.
> 
> ...


You will be limited to pigeons. Doves will,not stay or return. Some pigeons may or maynot. They will have to be confined for some time before they can be released.
You will have to expect some losses if you free fly pigeons. Some will go elsewhere to nest, some will be killed, and predators will take some.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Pops2 said:


> you might want to ask on the back yard chicken
> forum.http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/
> i got a lot of good information there. like the giant runts are really just a show breed. they're huge but slow breeders & mediocre parents. so when i give it a go i'm planning on female TX pioneer & male giant runts to try to split the difference. i also plan on keeping some feral pairs to foster so i can get more squabs per breeding pair.


Pops, there are quite a few forums that are better than backyardchickens. Most of the people there are very young and have no real experience raising any type of birds. There experience comes from reading and talking to each other.

There are show runts and production runts. Like different breeds of dogs. The show type is different than the production type. The show type is raised for their large size. The production type is raised for their medium large size and for the production of squabs.

The texas pioneer is really just a king pigeon that is autosexing.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

My husband is from Northern England, and his grandparents had a working dove cote in their garden when he was a child. I also saw several round and square examples in different countries when I was growing up in Europe, some of them still in use. 

Most of the older cotes were open so the birds could free-range during, but most returned to the nests where they were born. New birds might take off, but they didn't seem to have much problem with subsequent generations coming back. The inside of the ones I saw were normally just big enough for a person to stand in the middle of the wall nests to collect eggs and squab. Although there was a big one (2000+) outside a monastery in France that was built straight into the wall of the stable's southern peak and you could access the entire back of it from the hayloft.

More recent examples, in the UK at least, are enclosed with a fly. Maybe to protect their flocks now that the human population and pet predators is denser? Maybe to keep feral pigeons from infiltrating? Maybe because not a lot of people breed successive generations anymore, so the birds aren't as imprinted on their home nest? In any case, I know that we'll have to enclose ours because there are way too many wild aerial predators in our area... tasty little pigeons would be no match for horned owls and ravens the size of bulldogs, not to mention all the hawks and falcons.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Somewhere I was thinking that by deciding first the diameter of hole to cut for their entrances, I could pretty well predetermine which species of bird can gain access into the cote.

So is it pigeons then and not actually doves?


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

When they are "free ranging" does this mean being fed at the expense of other peoples crops?


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Yes, they're pigeons. The common birds used for squab, sport and exhibition are breeds of the Domestic Pigeon (Columba livia domestica), descendant of the Rock Pigeon. Although some fanciers do keep Ringneck or Collared Doves (Genus Streptopelia), Diamond Doves (genus Geopelia) and Mourning Doves (genus Zenaida) for pleasure and show (I haven't seen mention of eating them).

Another option for restricting access in and out of the nests in your cote/loft is to use commercially available fronts, doors and traps.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ET1 SS said:


> Somewhere I was thinking that by deciding first the diameter of hole to cut for their entrances, I could pretty well predetermine which species of bird can gain access into the cote.
> 
> So is it pigeons then and not actually doves?


For pigeons a trap, instead of holes cut for entrances, might be a good idea for your cote. It allows birds that are outside to come in but won't let them leave again. You are able to let the birds out anytime you choose and to keep them in anytime you want to.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

postroad said:


> When they are "free ranging" does this mean being fed at the expense of other peoples crops?


Well... ummm.. yes  But also your crops, any public parks, and any other open spaces. Sometimes that's a good thing (weed and bug control), other times it makes them a pest. Which is why there were penalties in place back in the day that kept neighboring residents from interfering with the manor lord's pigeons... :whistlin:


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

If I had a long barn with a chicken coop & run at one end, and a pigeon loft and fly at the other, with larger livestock pens in between, do you think I'd have too much of a problem with cross-disease and mites? I'd keep clean quarters, but I'd be worried that keeping avians too close together might be too risky even though the warmth of a combined barn is a benefit in winter.


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

no cross disease, i keep pigeons in contact with just about every other farm animal that you can emagin, you just have to keep your pens clean or you will have problems anyway, pigeons can come down with their own problems regardless, i keep ACV in their water most all the time to help with this, other than that they are fine, Dove is just a pretty word for pigeon for people who think the word pigeon means flying rat over here in the states, if the word is pretty they wont mind so much, but they are still pigeons, Actual Doves are a cousin of pigeons and act tottally differint and are not suited for the things people use pigeons for,


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Good to hear that keeping the pigeon loft in the barn shouldn't cause any additional problems. It certainly makes heating, securing and care chores easier... and I only have to shovel one path to one barn LOL

Do pigeons actually still bathe in the winter? At least in water? I know some birds who prefer water baths can be switched to dust baths in the winter without too much issue; but I haven't seen anything noted for pigeons. Sitting and playing in water can be really dangerous here... even ducks and geese are known to lose feet when the water ices up so quickly around them, and pigeons are much smaller with less body heat. (yes, I'm probably too paranoid about my critters freezing to death or getting sick)


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Aha - I did find someone selling Giant Runts and White Kings -- at what looks like seriously high prices for young unmated birds??

Most of the places I find are only selling exotics, homers, racers or rollers -- but their prices seem a lot lower.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

PlicketyCat said:


> Aha - I did find someone selling Giant Runts and White Kings -- at what looks like seriously high prices for young unmated birds??
> 
> Most of the places I find are only selling exotics, homers, racers or rollers -- but their prices seem a lot lower.


Don't know about Alaska but around here pegeons are cheap.
A couple of years ago I sold a couple hundred kings, runts, and texas pioneers for about $10 each. Rollers, tumblers, fantails are very cheap.
There is usually some for sale on Craig's list for less then $5 each.

They will raise fast. A pair of mine would average producing about 16 squabs a year. It doesn't take long before you are over run with pigeons.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> When they are "free ranging" does this mean being fed at the expense of other peoples crops?


They almost never eat crops before they are harvested since they like to feed in *open* fields

Mine almost never go more than about 400 yds from home.
Most of their time is spent much closer

Pigeons around here go for about $10 if they aren't racing Homers.
Kings are a good "meat" breed, and one of the most common

You CAN eat Homers too (as well as all the other breeds), but the meat breeds tend to be a little larger


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

pancho said:


> Don't know about Alaska but around here pegeons are cheap.
> A couple of years ago I sold a couple hundred kings, runts, and texas pioneers for about $10 each. Rollers, tumblers, fantails are very cheap.
> There is usually some for sale on Craig's list for less then $5 each.
> 
> They will raise fast. A pair of mine would average producing about 16 squabs a year. It doesn't take long before you are over run with pigeons.


I can check Craigslist, but I doubt I'll find too many pigeons up here. My best bet would be Anchorage area, but that's over a day's drive from us; even if I lucked out with Fairbanks, that's 4 hours. Of course, if someone had them and was willing to drop them in the post  But most folks don't have the live bird boxes unless they're breeders or hatcheries.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Two words: Hatching eggs.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

LOL - I live in the bush, I'll pretty much eat anything that run away fast enough; but I don't want to get a livestock animal that's not suited for production purposes no matter how much I like then. If I have to eat 2 to get a full meal, then that means I'd have to raise twice as many


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Three words: Wait until Spring.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

GrannyCarol said:


> Two words: Hatching eggs.


That might work, I have a little quail incubator around here somewhere that would probably work if I found someone who sold meat pigeon hatching eggs. Even those guys who sold the birds don't seem to offer the eggs.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

PlicketyCat said:


> That might work, I have a little quail incubator around here somewhere that would probably work if I found someone who sold meat pigeon hatching eggs. Even those guys who sold the birds don't seem to offer the eggs.


The reason people do not sell pigeon eggs is because they only lay 2 at a time and the parents feed the young their "milk". Sort of hard to have to hand feed pigeons. By the time you had raised two you would have enough invested to drive pretty far to pick up grown birds.


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

no you wont be able to raise them from hatching eggs, they are born tiny blind and compleatly helpless, and yes they bathe in water in winter, they need to to stay insulated clean feathers are healthy warm feathers


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

OK - no hatching eggs or hand raising! I won't be ready to get any new animals until at least spring anyway... there's 5' of snow on the ground  But I'm trying to design my barn, so doing all my research now when it's dark all the time and I can't go outside much.

I might have to get a water heater for the bath, or at least make them bathe quickly in the morning. I'm sure the barn will be above freezing, but not by much on the really cold days (-60F) unless I bring in some sort of supplemental heat. We're off the grid so anything electric like heat lamps, pads and trough heaters have to be thought about in advance so I don't kill our battery bank or overload the generator.

How cold hardy are pigeons anyway?


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

See, I learned something I didn't know!  That's one of the fun things about these forums.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I might have to get a water heater for the bath, or at least make them bathe quickly in the morning


They just need a small, shallow pan to splash around in.
If your barn stays above freezing, that's all you need.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Good to know... if I made a ledge for the pan up off the floor would they still splash around? I think it would take longer to freeze up around waist height.


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

they need fresh clean water every day maybe twice a day in freezing weather. not only due to freezing but because they get the water dirty fast. i use the big plastic kitty litter boxes that are 3 or 4 inches deep


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Fresh water shouldn't be a problem in the winter since I've got a snow melter planned for the barn's little heat stove. All the critters need lots of clean unfrozen water and it's cold enough for a bucket of well water to freeze while I'm carrying it from the pump to the barn... plus who wants to haul water when the snow is already falling right where you need it?!

Still fidgeting with the barn plan, trying to figure out where everyone is going to live. Since my breeding buns will probably be in colony rather than battery, could I put the pigeons above them to use the space better? The buns are a lot quieter than the chickens and a lot less likely to fly up and freak the pigeons out.


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

yes i kept rabbits in a colony that also held chickens and pigeons for 4 years, is your barn dirt floor or cement? if dirt is there a deep foundation? rabbits dig, thats where they have their litters which is fine as long as the foundation is deep enough to keep them from digging out, if solid cement floor i would make nest tunnels out of wood, for the rabbits, atleast two per adult breeding doe plus something for the buck to hide in. if you had access to enough hay bales i would say you could stack some hay bales togather for them to dig into, 

but in regards to the pigeons your going to need at least two nest boxes per breeding pair, they will normally have one nest half grown and then start another, a good size nest box for meat type or any type really is 18"x18"x18" with a 3" lip, i like to build my nest boxes between exposed studs in the wall, or what ever is easy for you, they will build a nest out of pine needles or what ever they can find, so you need to supply something suitable for nest building, they will lay two eggs and incubate for 18 days then feed the squabbs orally predigested milky substance untill they are older and then its just regurgitated grain, 
pigeons need whole grain in their diet, wild bird seed mixes work well, you can also mix in some poultry crumble or pellets, the rabbits can eat the same thing, 
also they will need plenty of roosting places other than the nest boxes, you can pretty well control where the bulk of their droppings go by where you put their roosts, the whole floor of the barn room can be for while the walls and rafters are for pigeons with just water and food to share at designated places


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

We'll either have a dirt floor or a wood floor over a crawlspace depending on whether I can dig the 4' footers where we want to put the barn. We should be able to dig since I didn't find permafrost there, but I've dug for footers before and had the last one of 8 hit permafrost... arg! But we will be using post construction, so I'll have to make sure that I bury rabbit fencing around the colony perimeter so they can't dig out. If we're on wood over crawlspace, I'll just make a double floor for the colony and fill it with deep straw so they can tunnel. 

Concrete is a definite NO since it's such a major pain to get back here and then mix and pour by hand. The only place I might consider pouring a concrete pad under is the goat milking station so it's easier to disinfect that area.

Do the pigeons make a mess around their nest boxes, or generally leave the nest and use the perch areas for the latrine? I'd hate to locate something in the wrong place and have some poor bun get pelted or get contaminated water, etc.


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

pigeons will mostly mess where they nest and where they perch, just because they spend alot of time there and it builds up, they will mess sporatically all over but sence they spend most of their time perching eather on the nest or on a roost thats where most of it goes, the rabbits will keep them self cleen, just give them plenty of hideing places under things and places to dig their tunnels,


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Did you normally keep your young birds that you were growing out for replacements in the same pen with everyone else, or in a separate pen? I've heard mixing mated pairs and unmated singletons together causes production problems and fighting because bachelors and widowers try to woo someone else's lady.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> if I made a ledge for the pan up off the floor would they still splash around?


They won't care where it is.
They will just use it. It only needs to be 3-4 inches deep

Older males especially will sometimes kill younger birds, so if you can seperate the ones you want to keep they will have a better chance of surviving.

They can eat when they are about 4 weeks old.
If there is snow on the ground, or they can't get outdoors, you may have to supply them with some grit.

They do best with a high protein diet but can still do ok on mixed grains.
I feed mine a mix of flockraiser pellets and bird seed, and once in a while a bag of corn.

They also like to eat out of the dog bowls when they get a chance.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

All good info, the plan's starting to come together 

Are they more exclusively grains, or can they eat pretty much like chickens? I know that feral pigeons eat anything and everything, but that doesn't mean that's healthy for them. I can do a good seed mix, but might need to supplement the protein with meat and fish for the chickens because proper high protein grains are a bit tough to grow here.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Are they more exclusively grains, or can they eat pretty much like chickens


Most of the "high dollar" pigeon feeds have lots of peas mixed with the grains.

http://www.jones-seed.com/c-6-pigeon.aspx

Pigeon Blend 14%



> INGREDIENTS
> Canadian Peas, Popcorn, Maple Peas, Milo, Wheat, Oat Groats, Red Proso Millet


Pigeon Mix Deluxe 17%



> INGREDIENTS
> Canadian Peas, Austrian Peas, Wheat, Oat Groats, Milo, Red Proso Millet, Maple Peas


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

in my larger coops i kept them all togather and in my smaller ones i moved the younger birds out, just depends on the size of the coop and the type of birds in it, some breeds are more agressive than others, 

yes they can eat pellets and poultry mash but they can also get impacted with too much of that, a good grain mix has milo, wheat, Black oil sunflower seed, Safflower seed, Peas, a little corn but not too much.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

A pigeon loft will not get wet and nasty as does a chicken coop. The manure is dry, and dries so quickly that it forms a powdery layer in the loft unless there is water splashed around on it. It is also easy to collect and put on the garden.

Pigeons need grain, and the high protein supplement is usually some sort of peas. I was once able to get culled mung beans when I kept pigeons in Tulsa, and could mix corn, milo, wheat and beans for a good ration. 

The nature of pigeons is that the male chooses his loft and lures a mate to it. Then they are more or less monogamous, so that a loft with pairs is usually stable and serene. Introduce a single and you have the same situation you'd have in your house with a threesome.

If you have a water dish in the loft you can expect a wet area around it--figure some way to restrict access so that the birds cannot bathe in the drinking water.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

pancho said:


> Pops, there are quite a few forums that are better than backyardchickens. Most of the people there are very young and have no real experience raising any type of birds. There experience comes from reading and talking to each other.
> 
> There are show runts and production runts. Like different breeds of dogs. The show type is different than the production type. The show type is raised for their large size. The production type is raised for their medium large size and for the production of squabs.
> 
> The texas pioneer is really just a king pigeon that is autosexing.


well don't keep that info to yourself, what are those forum?
i was under the impression there were no production runt lines anymore. you got any leads on that. my thinking was to use the pioneer for the autosexing & try to get a good crossbred line that was more prolific & bigger. kind of trying to split the difference in size & prolifacy between a utility king & a giant runt while trying to stay cost effective.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> If you have a water dish in the loft you can expect a wet area around it--figure some way to restrict access so that the birds cannot bathe in the drinking water.


Use 2x4 fencing to make a ring or cage around it and something to close the top off. Our waterers are designed for chicks and a foot across at the base. Lid from a 5-gallon pail fits on top of ring and a brick on top of that holds it in place.

Martin


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Pops2 said:


> well don't keep that info to yourself, what are those forum?
> i was under the impression there were no production runt lines anymore. you got any leads on that. my thinking was to use the pioneer for the autosexing & try to get a good crossbred line that was more prolific & bigger. kind of trying to split the difference in size & prolifacy between a utility king & a giant runt while trying to stay cost effective.


I haven't kept up with the forums since I sold my pigeons. I had runts, kings, pioneers, modenas, and giant homers. Tried crossing some and had good luck with the king/runt crosses. It is possible to breed auto sexing in both kings and runts.
The kings would be your best bet for squabs. You can find them easier than some other squabbing breeds and they are usually cheaper. They will produce quite a few squabs a year and will produce nice large squabs.
Kings crossed with any other large breed will produce nice birds.
If they produce 1lb squabs at one month you are doing alright.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Doves and pigeons are just about the same thing. Much like the horse and donkey, they are in the same families and can cross. Crossing isn't likely but pigeons have been artifically crossed with a couple species of doves and produced fertile young. They are not really that much difference and not any call for them.
One easy to tell the difference is the time it takes an egg to hatch. Doves usually take 2 weeks and pigeons about 18 days with some breeds taking 30 days.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

While touring ancient archaeological sites in Israel I became interested in dove cotes.

The really old ones are dug into limestone, narrow passageways with very tall ceilings. Starting at about 5 foot on the walls are rows of hollowed out openings. About the size of a shoe-box. Rows on top of rows going up to near the ceiling. In the middle of the ceiling, a small opening where the turtle doves could fly outside to feed.

After spending much of today searching through pigeon / dove forums, looking at their cote designs. I find that I am not able to reconcile what I saw with what these pigeon fanciers are doing now.

I am planning on starting a dove cote this next year. But I need ideas for a design.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

pancho said:


> Doves and pigeons are just about the same thing. Much like the horse and donkey, they are in the same families and can cross. Crossing isn't likely but pigeons have been artifically crossed with a couple species of doves and produced fertile young. They are not really that much difference and not any call for them.
> One easy to tell the difference is the time it takes an egg to hatch. Doves usually take 2 weeks and pigeons about 18 days with some breeds taking 30 days.


I found one site today that has a list of all possible hybrids between pigeons and doves.

Another site that gives incubation times for each hybrid going from 14 days up to 30 days.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ET1 SS said:


> I found one site today that has a list of all possible hybrids between pigeons and doves.
> 
> Another site that gives incubation times for each hybrid going from 14 days up to 30 days.


I don't think 14-30 days is the incubation time for hybrids. That is the incubation time for pigeons. Some pigeons are the size of small turkeys and take 30 days to hatch. Most common pigeons take 18 days and most the doves they can cross with takes 14 days to hatch. The hybrids will take between 14-18 days to hatch.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ET1 SS said:


> While touring ancient archaeological sites in Israel I became interested in dove cotes.
> 
> The really old ones are dug into limestone, narrow passageways with very tall ceilings. Starting at about 5 foot on the walls are rows of hollowed out openings. About the size of a shoe-box. Rows on top of rows going up to near the ceiling. In the middle of the ceiling, a small opening where the turtle doves could fly outside to feed.
> 
> ...


Do you want pigeons for squabbing, free flying, acrobatics, racing, colorful feathers, or just enjoyment.
A small barn can be fixed up pretty good and doesn't cost that much. Just room for a few perches and nest boxes. If they are free flying it doesn't have to be very large. If you plan on keeping them cooped up it would be better to have a flight attached.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

pancho said:


> Do you want pigeons for squabbing, free flying, acrobatics, racing, colorful feathers, or just enjoyment.
> A small barn can be fixed up pretty good and doesn't cost that much. Just room for a few perches and nest boxes. If they are free flying it doesn't have to be very large. If you plan on keeping them cooped up it would be better to have a flight attached.


Free-flying, foraging, and squab.

My Dw asks if possible that the breed have a nice cooing voice.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ET1 SS said:


> Free-flying, foraging, and squab.
> 
> My Dw asks if possible that the breed have a nice cooing voice.


They all sound nice to me, some deeper than others.
For free flying it is better to get darker birds. White birds seem to be easy targets.
If you can find anyone around you that has the giant homers you would probably like them. The kings will fly pretty good, will forage alright, and are great squabers. If you can find blue or bluebar it would help but most people have the white. Even the white would work. After they free fly a while they get better at dogging hawks.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

This is an Australian site but show what happens when pigeons and falcons share the same territory.

www.desmoore.org/id40.html

We can't let our birds fly as there's a lot of sharp shinned hawks in the city. Have to make certain that both lofts are ****-proof and caught one of them in a live trap a week ago. Close to a major disaster last night. Trapped a female mink! 

Martin


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

You've got advice of how to raise pigeons, know what can happen, but haven't got the pigeons yet. Prepare for sticker shock. Doubtful if you're going to find any breeding stock in Alaska. We ship rollers only to the contiguous 48 and even then have had trouble with some airlines. Site below has silver and white kings at $155 a pair. Giant runts are $375. That will give you some idea of what the startup costs will be. 

www.pigeonfarms.com/White_Pigeons_For_Sale.html

Martin


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Jiminy Cricket!!! I can buy a bred proven dairy goat for those kinda prices (common, not papered, but still)-- eeeeek! I didn't even spend that much on my weaner pigs and the feed to fatten them and their igloo combined. Ouch!


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Good point there. Goats are lower priced, sheep are lower priced. We pay less for our turkeys, ducks and chickens. A month ago I bought 4 piglet sows and boar from different blood lines and each of them cost less than these birds will likely cost us.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

No pigeons are cheap anymore. They can still be mailed and there are special boxes just for pigeons. That also ain't cheap and a few airlines don't like to carry them. If you found some private individuals in a pigeon forum with some extra stock to get rid of, you might be able to find some bargains but there aren't many who raise squab lines. I've been on one forum for as long as I've been here and nobody raises anything much bigger than a homer or modena. 

Martin


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ET1 SS said:


> Good point there. Goats are lower priced, sheep are lower priced. We pay less for our turkeys, ducks and chickens. A month ago I bought 4 piglet sows and boar from different blood lines and each of them cost less than these birds will likely cost us.


Take your time and look around where you live. You may come across birds priced reasonably.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

I guess that's what happens when animals stop being commonly used for livestock and start being mostly for pleasure and sport. Utility animals always cost less the show animals.


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

if you lived in an area where people actually kept pigeons you could find some relatively cheep, i have bought all kinds of birds for under $10, but sence your up in Alaska everything is shipped in anyway so thats where most of cost is probably going to be, at one time i had some utility crosses, they were a mix of giant homer/king/racer and something else cant remimber what, their size varied with some hens being slimmer than the cock birds but all were nice and meaty and made great feeders and squabbers, i used them to feed some of my other breeds at that time mostly, but they were good eating. nice dark rich meat,


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

I paid $5 each for my birds.
Anything above $20 for a* meat *bird is foolish

I bought 20, and kept them penned for about 2 months.
The first time I let them fly, about half never came back.
Now, with letting them "free range" all the time, there are usually around 40 of them.

Hawks get a few, and one of my dogs loves to catch them when she can, but I still have more than I started with


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I paid $5 each for my birds.
> Anything above $20 for a* meat *bird is foolish
> 
> I bought 20, and kept them penned for about 2 months.
> ...


Great looking birds and a good setup.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I paid $5 each for my birds.
> Anything above $20 for a* meat *bird is foolish
> 
> I bought 20, and kept them penned for about 2 months.
> ...


Thanks


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Put an add on Craigslist that your looking for pigeons and I am sure someone will respond. There are some white barn pigeons for sale in the anchorage classifieds.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Well, I found one lady in Anchorage who does wedding releases, so I guess those would be Homers. She brought here original flock with her from the L48 when she came up, and she's not really interested in breeding or selling  I'll have to keep looking and see if this will be at all feasible. 

My sister is still in TX and is a member of TOFGA, she remembers that one member sold mated pairs of Texas Red Kings at a discount to other members at a couple of events last year. I might have to look into that and see about having her ship them to me. Although I kinda worry about them being heat-acclimated/heat-bred.

I wouldn't be opposed to $50-75 for a breeding pair WITH shipping; but that much for a singleton AND shipping on top is just crazy talk!


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

JasoninMN said:


> Put an add on Craigslist that your looking for pigeons and I am sure someone will respond. There are some white barn pigeons for sale in the anchorage classifieds.


If it's the same guy that I contacted, they're a feral flock that hijacked his barn this winter. He said they were fairly small, smaller than ptarmigans at any rate, and he can't speak to their health.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

PlicketyCat said:


> My sister is still in TX and is a member of TOFGA, she remembers that one member sold mated pairs of Texas Red Kings at a discount to other members at a couple of events last year. !


If you are really thinking about having pigeons shipped in you should not get them from this source.
There isn't a breed called Texas Red Kings. 
At least get them from someone who knows a little about pigeons and breeds.

Shipping is going to cost more than the pigeons. Might as well start with a real breed and quality birds.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

PlicketyCat said:


> My sister is still in TX and is a member of TOFGA, she remembers that one member sold mated pairs of Texas Red Kings at a discount to other members at a couple of events last year. I might have to look into that and see about having her ship them to me. Although I kinda worry about them being heat-acclimated/heat-bred.


Probably were ordinary Red Kings unless they were crossed with something else to improve one or another feature. One breeder in Texas does have Red Kings for squabbing so we know that they're still around for other than show.

www.pigeonbreeders.info/ads/utility-red-king-pigeons-for-sale-100612060041.cfm

Martin


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## sunflower-n-ks (Aug 7, 2006)

A thought. Check the CL in a city that has flights direct to Anchorage (if that is possible) to cut down on the birds travel time and handling. Seattle or Chicago maybe? Might find someone willing to ship them.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Great looking birds and a good setup.


Thanks!

I just partitioned off a corner of the barn, and added an "aviary" outside.
I got the nest boxes for $20 from a guy just down the road who had some stuff for sale sitting in his front yard

Outside:










Roosts:


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

Well, they're Red Kings one way or the other. Neither of us were thinking squab at the time so she could have misremembered the exact breed name, or maybe he's dba "Texas Red Kings". She definitely remembers that his loft is large enough to fulfill a few orders of a dozen pairs every quarter... so it sounds like the guy knows what he's doing well enough to have a successful breeding program that large.

I may be able to get a drop shipment from Seattle to Fairbanks (without going through Anchorage). If we put them on the plane rather than USPS, I'd definitely have to go into town to pick them up at the depot. USPS will deliver live animals out here to the PO in the village, but the bush pilot isn't happy with us when we do it  Would definitely have to be spring/summer if it's coming in by mail plane down here instead of town, there's just no postal guarantee this time of the year.

If I ask really nice, they feed store guys might pick the birds up at the airport for me and hold them a couple days if necessary. They're used to bush rats not always being able to get in immediately and are usually willing to work with people who give them a lot of business even if the animals don't come from them (like my heritage Chanteclers from Canada).

Of course, I might also be able to sweet-talk my parents into bringing a few birds up with them from Bellingham if they take the ferry whenever they come for a visit.


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## KIT.S (Oct 8, 2008)

We raised pigeons in Anchorage in our greenhouse. They were successful until dogs went through the plastic and chicken wire and had a feast. My dad raised pigeons for food on the rooftop in Watts, CA when he was a kid. Maybe "flying rabbits" instead of "flying rats?"

We're trying to get into pigeons, too, but haven't connected with the guy about 150 miles south of us, near Klamath, OR. He has Texas Pioneers and I believe was expecting $15 each for young male/females, but not "mated." He says his don't need a flight cage because they're too heavy to fly, and that our big (8 foot x 2 foot) rabbit cages will work for a pair.

If your parents come from Bellingham, they might be able to get a starter pack from him. Will the ferry allow them to bring live animals?

Kit


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> If it's the same guy that I contacted, they're a *feral flock *that hijacked his barn this winter. He said they were fairly small, smaller than ptarmigans at any rate, and he can't speak to their health.


Most of the feral birds around here are about as big as mine, and are probably just as healthy.

And they all TASTE the same 

I built a trap and caught some wild ones, which is why some of my birds have darker coloration


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

pancho said:


> If you are really thinking about having pigeons shipped in you should not get them from this source.
> *There isn't a breed called Texas Red Kings.*
> At least get them from someone who knows a little about pigeons and breeds.
> 
> Shipping is going to cost more than the pigeons. Might as well start with a real breed and quality birds.


maybe it's personal line crossbred from TX pioneer & red kings?
remember if you asked AKC types in 1960s there was no such breed as american bulldog, black mouth cur, catahoula, lacy. whether or not Parker curs are a breed or just a crossbred line depends on who you ask.
i'd say talk to the breeder before crossing this guy of the list of potential sources.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Pops2 said:


> maybe it's personal line crossbred from TX pioneer & red kings?


If it were, could be an improvement on both breeds. We had a homer mate with a fantail hen and both of their chicks turned out to be larger than the parent birds. 14 or 16 tail feathers but both could easily keep up to their father in every training flight. Then a **** got into that loft and lost that entire flying flock in one night.

Martin


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## honeyrobber (Feb 16, 2012)

A good source of pigeon info is http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/index.php . Just do not mention you are wanting to eat them. They are a good group but alot of people on the list think pigeons are pets not food so for harmony of the forum squabbing talk is not allowed.
I have 3 pigeons removed from a barn this last winter, then 4 homers gave to me late spring last year and about 20 fantails. As for feed they get the same feed as my dads bantams, co-op layer crumble and whole wheat straight from the farmer. The layer crumble is designed for hen houses and has all nutrients needed for chickens but the protien is a little low for pigeons. There was no problem with them breeding until they over crowded the cages(fantails) and fighting over nest have kept the production to near nothing. If you read the other forum you would know why this happened and why I did not sell alot of them this past year. I plan to try building a couple cages out of scrap lumber and trying squab from the fantails. 

I have even though about going to a area in nashville in my white jump suit for beekeeping with my cast net in the winter and collecting wild birds. I would not ever try to catch wild birds during warmer times as they could easily have squabs and I would not want them to starve or chill. With our light winter this year mine have started laying.


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