# Seeing reports Russia has begun Ukraine invasion



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Videos of Bombings and reports that White House officials and military leaders have been moved to bunkers for safety. This brings up many questions. What will Biden do next? A feckless leader is a real danger right now.


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

> *Seeing reports Russia has begun Ukraine invasion*


These are terrible news!
It will change the situation in Europe gravely!


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

66 views so far.

I am very interested to read what the feeling about this is in the USA.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

CNN Live Shot in Kyiv Interrupted By Multiple Explosions from Invasion


It has begun. The Russian invasion of Ukraine started Wednesday night (U.S. time) with evidence that dictator Vladimir Putin intends to take more of the country than just the Donbas territory in the eastern part of the country.




www.newsbusters.org





According to the article, the invasion is going to the capital of Ukraine much further than was originally told.

This is what happens when one has a weak leader. I've always liked the saying "walk softly but carry a big stick".


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Wolf mom said:


> CNN Live Shot in Kyiv Interrupted By Multiple Explosions from Invasion
> 
> 
> It has begun. The Russian invasion of Ukraine started Wednesday night (U.S. time) with evidence that dictator Vladimir Putin intends to take more of the country than just the Donbas territory in the eastern part of the country.
> ...


What actions do you believe this weak leader you talk about should be taking ?


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

painterswife said:


> What actions do you believe this weak leader you talk about should be taking ?


I would say he should resign, but the VP is weaker than he is.
Sanction all Russian financial institutions and Oligarchs.
Biden's actions on our oil production should all be reversed. Putin's actions are driving oil prices higher and Russia is reaping the benefits.
If it's possible shut down Russia's power grid.
Tell Putin to halt immediately and if he doesn't NATO should wipe out all Russian military near Ukraine's border and target his forces already in Ukraine


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

po boy said:


> I would say he should resign, but the VP is weaker than he is.
> Sanction all Russian financial institutions and Oligarchs.
> Biden's actions on our oil production should all be reversed. Putin's actions are driving oil prices higher and Russia is reaping the benefits.
> If it's possible shut down Russia's power grid.
> Tell Putin to halt immediately and if he doesn't NATO should wipe out all Russian military near Ukraine's border and target his forces already in Ukraine


So go global on war. Ya, that solves plenty. How has it worked through history if we are on that precipice now?


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

People act like it is bad but then why did we fund the entire thing?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Berwick said:


> 66 views so far.
> 
> I am very interested to read what the feeling about this is in the USA.


It's hard for some of us to believe the media here in the states. What are the reports from Germany?


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

The Ukraine News Agency U may need to click always translate


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

mreynolds said:


> It's hard for some of us to believe the media here in the states. What are the reports from Germany?


Knowing that not everything is always exactly the same as written in the press - I would say that the German media are quite rely-able on the whole.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> What actions do you believe this weak leader you talk about should be taking ?


Horse is out of the barn.

Weakness invited this. What is next?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Berwick said:


> Knowing that not everything is always exactly the same as written in the press - I would say that the German media are quite rely-able on the whole.


What will the German military do?

For 2022, Germany is ranked 16 of 140 out of the countries considered for the annual GFP review.




__





2022 Germany Military Strength


Detailing the current military strength of Germany including air force, army, navy, financials and manpower.



www.globalfirepower.com


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

painterswife said:


> What actions do you believe this weak leader you talk about should be taking ?


Immediately put out an address stating that the minute Putin’s forces destroy a single asset we provided to the Ukrainians, even so much as one of the blankets Obama sent them, the US will destroy every Russian asset, mechanical and biological, in Ukraine.

It would have been much better to do this last week when we could still leave Putin the option of saving face and making good on his claims that they were just conducting military training. But, we didn’t, so now the job is harder.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

So it looks like some posters believe we should go to war with Russia.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> So it looks like some posters believe we should go to war with Russia.


We have been at war with Russia for years

Now we just start shooting at each other instead of sending them them petro dollars


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

I know the UK's Daily Mail is a rag, but they do have news stories beyond what Trump is doing today so sometimes it's worthwhile to read.

Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital as Putin launches all-out invasion from north, south and east, with cruise missiles hitting airports and military bases, tanks rolling in and scores killed

How the Ukraine invasion unfolded minute-by-minute: Russian shells rain down on Mariupol at 3.30am, Putin declares war two hours later and then all hell breaks loose across nation and capital Kiev


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

So it looks like some posters here think that the world should stand by and do nothing as nations are invaded and millions of innocent people are killed, displaced or oppressed.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

painterswife said:


> So it looks like some posters believe we should go to war with Russia.


If Bush had had the backbone to keep Russia out of Georgia in 2008, Obama wouldn’t have had to deal with Russia taking Crimea, but Bush didn’t want to saddle McCain with another point for Obama to use against him in the election.

If Obama had had the backbone to keep Russia out of Crimea in 2014, Biden wouldn’t have to be dealing with Russia invading Ukraine today, but Obama had a midterm that year and he didn’t want to saddle his congressional allies with the geopolitical tensions at the time.

If Biden, who knows he’s in for a bloody mid-term this year, had had the backbone to keep Russia out of Ukraine, he or the next president wouldn’t have to deal with Russia invading The Czech Republic, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Romania or all of the above.


See the pattern?


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

painterswife said:


> What actions do you believe this weak leader you talk about should be taking ?


Based on past experience, I would expect Biden to address the nation and assure us that this invasion will not interfere with Gen. Millie's scheduled mandated gender identity classes.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> So it looks like some posters believe we should go to war with Russia.


It looks like Biden voters want others to solve the problems created by their ill-informed votes.

If you didn't vote for Biden, no need to be offended.

If you did vote for Biden, I hope you are happy.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

painterswife said:


> So it looks like some posters believe we should go to war with Russia.


there was only a brief time we haven’t been at war with Russia/ Soviet. Very brief.

For a long time Europe relied upon others to be the protector of free Europe. And did not invest in protecting themselves. To be fair the USA and a few others enjoyed the thought that they were the protector of the free world and wanted to fill that role.

but it all comes home to roost.

we get a weak leader, and the entire network of the ‘free world’ unravels in just 2 years.

Europe didn’t want to police itself, and our country got preoccupied with scoring free TVs and flying colorful flags while appointing people to leadership roles based on their skin color and chromosomes instead of on their abilities.

it does not take long for a system to fail.

I feel for the people of Eastern Europe. There is little to do now, let the dominos fall or enter wwiii. Some choice.

the failure was twofold. Over the last 50 years Europe wasn’t willing to put their resources into protecting themselves. And in the past decade the USA went very weak and wants to really join Russia style of govt and suffering because they are too stupid to understand history.

Paul


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Pray


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Bidens threat of severe financial repercussions is a waste of breath. Russia will have some minor inconvenience as they change their transportation system around to start suppling china instead of Europe. It’s already in the process. china is perfectly capable of taking advantage of the low prices while at the same time increasing Europes problems. 

As pointed out above. Putins actions are just a result of Europes failure to prepare and the USA failing political world standing.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Redlands Okie said:


> Bidens threat of severe financial repercussions is a waste of breath. Russia will have some minor inconvenience as they change their transportation system around to start suppling china instead of Europe. It’s already in the process. china is perfectly capable of taking advantage of the low prices while at the same time increasing Europes problems.
> 
> As pointed out above. Putins actions are just a result of Europes failure to prepare and the USA failing political world standing.


That is tier one.

Think about the mischief that the tier two players are dreaming up.

Ukraine is the one that bleeds, but the US is the real loser in this.

Most of the boxes would be checked off if we all put our heads together and made a list of stupid things the US could do to lose influence and power.


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

It's interesting some feel when the U.S. participates in conflicts in Asia or Africa it's invasive and countries should sort out their own issues and think it's our fault when the Ukraine is attacked.

I did not want to see this on the news this morning.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Until Ukraine starts sending Russian troops back in body bags, this will continue.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

altair said:


> It's interesting some feel when the U.S. participates in conflicts in Asia or Africa it's invasive and countries should sort out their own issues and think it's our fault when the Ukraine is attacked.
> 
> I did not want to see this on the news this morning.


I personally don't care who rules Ukraine. It is not a democratic republic in a real sense. I can understand Russia's concerns about foreign countries getting involved in a neighboring country just like we would if Russia was meddling in Canada or Mexico. However, being a world power has consequences.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Please explain to me why there has been no plan either by the US or Ukraine to prepare for this invasion? "We did not expect....." is not an answer or an excuse. What happened to our intelligence community? What happened to our bottom line as it affects the US and/or the world. Russia is not invisible. Putin has been sending messages to the world for a long time.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

altair said:


> It's interesting some feel when the U.S. participates in conflicts in Asia or Africa it's invasive and countries should sort out their own issues and think it's our fault when the Ukraine is attacked.
> 
> I did not want to see this on the news this morning.


there is a lot of double vision on anything with world politics like this.

whatever side I am on, there is a lot of ‘both sides have issues’ for sure.....

when it’s a mess like this it’s a mess, the other side (whichever that’s is) wouldn’t have gotten it all right either.

above I said the USA problems were in the past 2 years...... but you know, Russia took over countries starting back in 2008 was it, so the problems go back more than 2 years. We all wring our hands today, but we don’t really do anything along the way, what is there to do.

how do you stop a bully on the school grounds, How do you stop a bully when nuclear weapons are involved.

wring our hands and point fingers and hope the bully stops before he gets to our front door.

yes, it is interesting.


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## Vjk (Apr 28, 2020)

This all started when Obama overthrew the democratically elected government in the Ukraine. Tyranny has consequences.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Why can’t we all get along?


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Wolf mom said:


> Please explain to me why there has been no plan either by the US or Ukraine to prepare for this invasion? "We did not expect....." is not an answer or an excuse. What happened to our intelligence community? What happened to our bottom line as it affects the US and/or the world. Russia is not invisible. Putin has been sending messages to the world for a long time.


Exactly. Russia has voiced legitimate security concerns for a long time and they were ignored. It was just a matter of time until this happened. I'd wager Biden's people love it. It takes Biden's failed policies and stammering off the news and they see it as a welcomed distraction. But, I think oil prices hit $100 a barrel earlier today and we will all pay more for gas now. Current government policies caused much of that. In the distant past (a year and a half) we were energy independent, but the current administration ended that.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

I do not understand why we are allowing the problems of other countries to overshadow the very real destruction going on right here in the States.

We are not the policemen of the world.

Neither are we a world power, not any longer, not in the truest sense.

Our Republic is dead, we are being overrun by evil from the south, and there is a new Cuba to our north. 

This has been planned for a long time. We need to demand that we stop bleeding out resources to other countries, and focus on our very real, incredibly devastating problems right here -- if we can.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Interesting, think the Cold War, both sides were right, the USSR just fell first. But you concentrate wealth and power AND MONEY and it results in fall of empires. USSR fell through corruption and overextending itself in a prolonged Afghanistan war. Guess what, had the Trumparian corruption on masse and a Trumparian inabiltity/will to get out of Afghanistan. HE HAD FOUR YEARS AND FAILED. Basically just told Taliban, please dont kill anymore soldiers, you can have whole shebang and we promise to leave by May 2021. So much for projecting American power.

Anyway we are in the Second Gilded Age with concentrated wealth, mega CAPITALIST corruption, and we expect different result for American as for USSR? Oh by way current version Russian Empire is nothing close to USSR at it peak. They were much more self sufficient. Putin is pale imitation, and doesnt have the economic staying power for long term occupation against an unwilling country. He is RELIANT on selling oil and gas. Russia no longer has an independent manufacturing base. Course neither does USA, we import everything from China and Mexico and just finance it.... Professional middleman economy. China could eat both USA and Russia's lunch if not for the Cold War nukes. Both countries are dependent on China, LOL

If anything Iran and NK and all second tier countries should learn from Ukraines mistake. Dont forgo the nukes, cause despite lot promises, once you are defanged, nobody takes you seriously. Imagine Ukraine with old Soviet nukes. Yea, Putin, if you invade, then Moscow turns to ash. Is Putin dumb enough to make that trade? Even one serious nuke could make for a bad headache for headstrong dictator looking to expand. So yea seems a nuclear poison pill is necessary in 2021 to prevent hostile military action against your country.


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

HDRider said:


> What will the German military do?


What NATO will do.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Berwick said:


> What NATO will do.


Will Germany give up Russian energy and trade?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Berwick said:


> What NATO will do.


Maybe. Maybe not.

There was talk that several NATO members were arguing to allow Ukraine into NATO ever since the first invasion and theft of Crimea, but that Germany was stating that they’d veto (ostensibly because of their interest in Nord Stream I&II). 

If that is the case, then Germany owns a large portion of the Ukrainian blood being shed today.

Also, we don’t forget that Germany was only paying half of its NATO dues for decades, and didn’t step up until Trump called them out and embarrassed them over their delinquency to NATO while spending billions on Russian energy (there’s that pesky Nord Stream again… and yet another example of Trump being “Putin’s lapdog”, eh @HermitJohn?).

So, no; no one can be honestly confident that Germany can be counted on to do the right thing, should the need arise. Feckless governments can’t be trusted in matters of Liberty’s concern.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Maybe. Maybe not.
> 
> There was talk that several NATO members were arguing to allow Ukraine into NATO ever since the first invasion and theft of Crimea, but that Germany was stating that they’d veto (ostensibly because of their interest in Nord Stream I&II).
> 
> ...


I wonder if he does not have to censor himself under some German laws.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> I wonder if he does not have to censor himself under some German laws.


I don’t think they’re censored in quite that way yet. They’ll probably see it only shortly before we do.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I don’t think they’re censored in quite that way yet. They’ll probably see it only shortly before we do.


They are less censored than Canadians?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HDRider said:


> They are less censored than Canadians?


Canadians aren’t allowed to say unflattering things about Canada online?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Canadians aren’t allowed to say unflattering things about Canada online?


I thought they had some bans on speech, or words or something - I don't really know

The wiki says

_The Charter also permits the government to enforce "reasonable" limits. Hate speech, obscenity, and defamation are common categories of restricted speech in Canada. During the 1970 October Crisis, the War Measures Act was used to limit speech from the militant political opposition._


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Evons hubby said:


> Why can’t we all get along?


It’s NOT human nature


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Pony said:


> I do not understand why we are allowing the problems of other countries to overshadow the very real destruction going on right here in the States.
> 
> We are not the policemen of the world.
> 
> ...


Good idea in general. Problem is that world events have serious effects here. Ignore them or not, it matters here.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)




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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

nchobbyfarm said:


> View attachment 106272


Hit the nail on the head.

For some reason, images from the movie_ Red Dawn_ keep popping into my head....


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

WOLVERINES!!!!


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

kinderfeld said:


> WOLVERINES!!!!


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Putin must not know what happened with Corn Pop.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

He knows, and he has heard it so many times over the phone and during summits that he is to the point of finishing Biden's sentences and rushing him to the end.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

From what little I know about the situation; Putin is a chess player and is working to regain Russian influence and power. Uncle Joe is ineffectual and a toothless figurehead. China is the big dog here playing both ends against the middle. And let's not forget about Kim Jong-un watching in the background, licking his lips, waiting to see just how much Putin can get away with.
In a straight chess match between Putin and Biden, I'd bet on Putin all day long. Hopefully we've got smarter people than Biden holding him up and working his strings.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

A Ukrainian soldier on a tiny island in the Black Sea didn't hold back when threatened with bombing by a Russian warship as Moscow continued its assault on Ukrainian territory.
According to a purported audio exchange, as the Russians approached Snake Island, also known as Zmiinyi Island, the Russian officer says: "This is a military warship. This is a Russian military warship. I suggest you lay down your weapons and surrender to avoid bloodshed and needless casualties. Otherwise, you will be bombed."
A Ukrainian soldier responds: "Russian warship, go f*** yourself."


Those were the final known words heard from the island.
All 13 Ukrainian defenders were killed in a Russian bombardment Thursday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said.
"All border guards died heroically but did not give up. They will be awarded the title of Hero of Ukraine posthumously," Zelensky said.

Below is the audio exchange-


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

The Building of the Berlin Wall and the Invasion of Ukraine - a Comparison

Walter Ulbricht, then Head of East Germany, in 1961: "Nobody has any intention to build a wall."
Shortly afterwards the wall was built.

Vladimir Putin in 2022: "We are not going to invade Ukraine."
Shortly afterwards Ukraine was invaded.

When Putin repeated again and again: "We have no intention to invade Ukraine!" - I was eerily reminded of Walter Ulbricht in 1961


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

gilberte said:


> From what little I know about the situation; Putin is a chess player and is working to regain Russian influence and power. Uncle Joe is ineffectual and a toothless figurehead. China is the big dog here playing both ends against the middle. And let's not forget about Kim Jong-un watching in the background, licking his lips, waiting to see just how much Putin can get away with.
> In a straight chess match between Putin and Biden, I'd bet on Putin all day long. Hopefully we've got smarter people than Biden holding him up and working his strings.


Well said.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

Well, not sure that was exactly what he said. They have no plans on occupy Ukraine, but Putin has said continually that he is going to put Russias interest first and if Ukraine tries to join NATO he was not going to allow it.


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

Redlands Okie said:


> Problem is that world events have serious effects here. Ignore them or not, it matters here.


Very true!
"Splendid isolation" does not help.


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

Long live Ukraine! - Слава Україні - Slawa Ukrajini!


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Immediately put out an address stating that the minute Putin’s forces destroy a single asset we provided to the Ukrainians, even so much as one of the blankets Obama sent them, the US will destroy every Russian asset, mechanical and biological, in Ukraine.
> 
> It would have been much better to do this last week when we could still leave Putin the option of saving face and making good on his claims that they were just conducting military training. But, we didn’t, so now the job is harder.


And then Russia takes down our power grid.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

HDRider said:


> That is tier one.
> 
> Think about the mischief that the tier two players are dreaming up.
> 
> ...


Maybe that was the hoped for outcome.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> And then Russia takes down our power grid.


Like Russia has taken down Ukraine’s? Or maybe they take down our internet, like they took down the one in the country they are actively invading.

…but they haven’t done either of those things.

We discovered, at the end of the Cold War, that Russia was largely a paper tiger. We’ve lived the last five years fearing Russia’s cyber warfare capability.

Now, in the last five days, western sanctions have caused the ruble to lose over 80% of its value, and their stock market to lose over 50% of its value. Ukraine appears to be giving as good as they’re getting, and the only major Ukrainian infrastructure hits have come as the result of ballistic high explosives. And, in all this time, the one major cyber attack in the theatre has resulted in Putin’s own version of whitehouse.gov being taken offline and kept offline. Putin’s ninja hackers can’t even get his own website back online.

I think it would be very dangerous to underestimate Russia, but everything on the table today suggests that we have _once again_ overestimated them.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Like Russia has taken down Ukraine’s? Or maybe they take down our internet, like they took down the one in the country they are actively invading.
> 
> …but they haven’t done either of those things.
> 
> ...


From what I read yesterday, Russia and China both have the capability to shut down our grid. We know that they have accessed components of the grid, so the assumption is they know how to shut it down if it ever comes to that.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> From what I read yesterday, Russia and China both have the capability to shut down our grid. We know that they have accessed components of the grid, so the assumption is they know how to shut it down if it ever comes to that.


Are you suggesting they lack the will to do so?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> From what I read yesterday, Russia and China both have the capability to shut down our grid. We know that they have accessed components of the grid, so the assumption is they know how to shut it down if it ever comes to that.


I’ve been reading the same thing, for years. I’m not saying that they don’t. I’m just pointing out that they haven’t. 

Russia’s stock market is only worth half the number of rubles that it was last week, and those rubles are only worth 20% of what they had been. Putin is blowing through cash fighting a war that is now three times longer than he had predicted it would be, in large part due to training and weapons systems provided by the west since he invaded Crimea- with more on the way every day.

Sure, I’ve read that Putin could take down our power grid, from 5,000 miles away, but, right now, it would appear that he’s not able to reboot the server down the hall.

Again, I’m not suggesting that it would be wise to underestimate Putin. I’m just saying that, as his country has proven liable to do in the past, he may not be able to do all the things he claimed he could.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498603452540198913


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Currently the debate is going on in the European Parliament if they are going to allow Ukraine to join the EU.
It is somewhat interesting listening them debate. They seem sincerely mad and frustrated with Germany and not happy with the current US administration for the handling of Putin. Although, they keep bringing back the point that this is a European problem and that they need to take the lead, respond accordingly and be prepared to take on China as they will be no better than Putin. 
I won't wait for that cat to meow but it will be interesting to see how the debate goes throughout the hours to come.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Oh and by the way, I guess we are still counting on Russia to broker that deal for us with Iran, lol.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

HDRider said:


> Are you suggesting they lack the will to do so?


How did you read that into it? If the West escalates this past a certain point, then we will learn if Russia has the will and the means.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

MoonRiver said:


> How did you read that into it? If the West escalates this past a certain point, then we will learn if Russia has the will and the means.


Reacting “defensively” to the Illegal Invasion of a Sovereign Nation is Not an escalation…
Whatever Putin/Russia does is on their own hands.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"if the west escalates". I can't believe you posted that. Putin is murdering innocent people for no reason other than power.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> Reacting “defensively” to the Illegal Invasion of a Sovereign Nation is Not an escalation…
> Whatever Putin/Russia does is on their own hands.


At some point, you are going to come to grips with the fact Russia is playing by its own rules.


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

HDRider said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498603452540198913


Is that your own opinion - or just a quote of Chinese propaganda?
Without a comment of your own one cannot know.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> "if the west escalates". I can't believe you posted that. Putin is murdering innocent people for no reason other than power.


This is not about emotion, but about what is actually happening. If the west does something as aggressive as a no-fly zone, don't expect Russia to not respond.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> This is not about emotion, but about what is actually happening. If the west does something as aggressive as a no-fly zone, don't expect Russia to not respond.


A no-fly zone is not aggression. Bombing Putin is aggression.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Sanctions, no-fly zones, arming Ukraine is not aggression. It is trying to stop an unwarranted act of aggression on the Country of Ukraine by a crazy megalomaniac.

Putin has no reasonable justifiable reasons for what he is doing. He is making things up as he goes and lying to his own people as he does it.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Berwick said:


> Is that your own opinion - or just a quote of Chinese propaganda?
> Without a comment of your own one cannot know.


I wanted to share what China is saying.

I think we are going to need to address if, or when Ukraine joins NATO.

I do not think China has any input on that.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

MoonRiver said:


> At some point, you are going to come to grips with the fact Russia is playing by its own rules.


At some point you’re going to realize that that very concept will bring Russian to ruin…while causing needless death , destruction and suffering.
Rules or no Rules, Russia /Putin will pay a heavy price…


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Never mind


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Sanctions, no-fly zones, arming Ukraine is not aggression. It is trying to stop an unwarranted act of aggression on the Country of Ukraine by a crazy megalomaniac.
> 
> Putin has no reasonable justifiable reasons for what he is doing. He is making things up as he goes and lying to his own people as he does it.


A no-fly zone is only effective if it is enforced. The enforcement of a no-fly zone is an escalation.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> A no-fly zone is only effective if it is enforced. The enforcement of a no-fly zone is an escalation.


No, it is the defense of people who are being murdered. Putin is the only aggressor here. All else is the defense of innocent lives.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> At some point you’re going to realize that that very concept will bring Russian to ruin…while causing needless death , destruction and suffering.
> Rules or no Rules, Russia /Putin will pay a heavy price…


I never said they wouldn't. I wish the world had a statesman who could negotiate an end to this, but we don't. The UN is powerless. NATO is risk-averse. The people of US won't support intervention. We have to deal with what is.

The best hope is there is a coupe and Putin is removed from power.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> No, it is the defense of people who are being murdered. Putin is the only aggressor here. All else is the defense of innocent lives.


Words don't stop bullets.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Words don't stop bullets.


LOL

You are the one using the word aggressor for anyone that might defend the lives of Ukraine. It comes across like you think Putin would be even a smidge in the right to respond with more aggression when others defend Ukraine.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

MoonRiver said:


> At some point, you are going to come to grips with the fact Russia is playing by its own rules.


They certainly seem to be playing by their own rules but that doesn't mean the rest of the world has to accept them nor does it mean there won't be consequences for playing by their own rules.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

wr said:


> They certainly seem to be playing by their own rules but that doesn't mean the rest of the world has to accept them nor does it mean there won't be consequences for playing by their own rules.


But that helps Ukraine how?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> LOL
> 
> You are the one using the word aggressor for anyone that might defend the lives of Ukraine. It comes across like you think Putin would be even a smidge in the right to respond with more aggression when others defend Ukraine.


Again, you and several others are reading things into what I posted. I never said I agree with Putin or he is right. I simply said what he is doing and that his rules aren't the same as our rules. 

People can call him crazy, say he is violating the rules of war, that he is wrong, etc, and it makes no difference. He will do what he will. The first step in beating him is to understand that.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> At some point, you are going to come to grips with the fact Russia is playing by its own rules.


It’s beginning to seem like I’m not alone in not giving a single runny **** what rules Putin wants to play by.






Are you sure you’re not actually rooting for Russia in this? You keep telling us that you’re just telling us what Putin’s perspective is, but we keep telling you that we already know what his perspective is, and that we don’t care because his perspective is wrong. Nevertheless, you persist.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Again, you and several others are reading things into what I posted. I never said I agree with Putin or he is right. I simply said what he is doing and that his rules aren't the same as our rules.
> 
> People can call him crazy, say he is violating the rules of war, that he is wrong, etc, and it makes no difference. He will do what he will. The first step in beating him is to understand that.


You are the one that said actions by those defending Ukraine were aggressions. Your use of that word has set the tone for your posts. You could have used the word actions and it would have been a different tone. You calling them aggressions just because Putin will twist it that way in his mind has your post looking like you really believe he has some real justification to believe they are aggressions towards him.

In fact, most of your posts in this thread make it look like you believe that as well. Even if you say otherwise.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> It’s beginning to seem like I’m not alone I’m not giving a single runny **** what rules Putin wants to play by.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's insulting for you even to say such a thing. I simply think Russia will win because neither the US, NATO, nor the EU will take action to stop him. This is another failure of US foreign policy and our intelligence agencies. And after we hear tonight's SOTU, it may even be a little Wag the Dog.

Several Russian oligarchs live part-time in London and NYC, so maybe they could be encouraged to end this.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> It's insulting for you even to say such a thing. I simply think Russia will win because neither the US, NATO, nor the EU will take action to stop him. This is another failure of US foreign policy and our intelligence agencies. And after we hear tonight's SOTU, it may even be a little Wag the Dog.
> 
> Several Russian oligarchs live part-time in London and NYC, so maybe they could be encouraged to end this.


I didn’t _say_ anything about you. I asked a question, and the premise of that question was not based on a single post, or even just a dozen posts. The premise of the question was predicated on the over-arching theme of all of your posts on this matter.

Even this last response; who here has said that they think Ukraine will win this conflict? I haven’t seen that said by anyone, quite the opposite, in fact. Likewise, everyone here has acknowledged what Putin’s stated justification is. And, hell, just for good measure, nearly everyone has acknowledged corruption in the Ukrainian and US governments. Still, I know we can count on you to tell us, yet again, all about how this invasion is just in Putin’s eyes, how corrupt the US and Ukrainian governments are, and how Ukraine is going to lose a terrible, bloody, humiliating defeat.

Again, I didn’t actually _say_ anything about you. I asked a question. Notably, you chose not to answer that question, and feign insult instead.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I didn’t _say_ anything about you. I asked a question, and the premise of that question was not based on a single post, or even just a dozen posts. The premise of the question was predicated on the over-arching theme of all of your posts on this matter.
> 
> Even this last response; who here has said that they think Ukraine will win this conflict? I haven’t seen that said by anyone, quite the opposite, in fact. Likewise, everyone here has acknowledged what Putin’s stated justification is. And, hell, just for good measure, nearly everyone has acknowledged corruption in the Ukrainian and US governments. Still, I know we can count on you to tell us, yet again, all about how this invasion is just in Putin’s eyes, how corrupt the US and Ukrainian governments are, and how Ukraine is going to lose a terrible, bloody, humiliating defeat.
> 
> Again, I didn’t actually _say_ anything about you. I asked a question. Notably, you chose not to answer that question, and feign insult instead.


If you didn't think I was rooting for Putin, you wouldn't have asked the question.

"Are you sure you’re not actually rooting for Russia in this?"

To steal a phrase from Russell Brand - "Explaining is not condoning."


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Putin is KGB. Putin is of an age where he still resents how the spoils were divided post-WWII. Putin is also paranoid, and thinks nothing of killing people who disagree with him.

But he is also intelligent, and he knows how to play the long game. 

Ever notice how he doesn't start any carp until oil prices are high?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> If you didn't think I was rooting for Putin, you wouldn't have asked the question.
> 
> "Are you sure you’re not actually rooting for Russia in this?"
> 
> To steal a phrase from Russell Brand - "Explaining is not condoning."


I suppose Brand is not wrong. Explaining is not necessarily condoning, but the two actions are not mutually exclusive, either.

Like I said, I didn’t ask the question based on a single post. I asked the question because every time someone makes comments about how Russia’s actions are wrong, you point out _again_ what Putin’s point of view is, using phrases like “_this explains why Putin is invading_” or “_this is what the west did to cause Putin to invade_”, or, my personal favorite, “_Putin’s actions are wrong according to whom?_”

You answer every post about how evil Putin is with your own two cents about all the wrong and evil the US has committed- though no one has denied that we have.

You also can’t seem to let an observation of how well Ukraine is resisting without countering with “_well, they’re going to lose badly anyway_”- though no one has said that they probably wouldn’t. 

So, my dear, you’ll have to excuse (or not) someone asking the very legitimate question about your alignment in this whole kerfluffle.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Ukraine doesn't have to "win". They just have to avoid having their military/para-military from being annihilated. They can employ a Fabian strategy that will keep casualties mounting for the Russians. Successfully occupying a country the size of Ukraine with 150,000 troops is not going to happen.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

MoonRiver said:


> But that helps Ukraine how?


Will rolling over help Ukraine now or in the future?


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Pony said:


> Putin is KGB. Putin is of an age where he still resents how the spoils were divided post-WWII. Putin is also paranoid, and thinks nothing of killing people who disagree with him.
> 
> But he is also intelligent, and he knows how to play the long game.
> 
> *Ever notice how he doesn't start any carp until oil prices are high*?


....and FJB is in office!


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Here is my analogy of the day.

Putin is like that mean, unpredictable dog on you walk home from school.

If you keep moving and don't make eye contact, he just sits and gives that low growl.

If you stop and stare at him, he makes a big fuss.

If you taunt him, he comes after you and tries to take a chunk out of you.

If you taunt him and he bites you, he is wrong, and you shoot him (perhaps).

The dog is dead. But at the same time, you understand why the dog did what he did. He did what he was wired to do, in that situation. 

We probably should not have been playing in the mean dog's front yard, taunting him. We have to take some responsibility for what is happening, because any reasonable person might expect this would happen.

I am not dogmatic (no pun intended) to the death on this....but this seems reasonable to me.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Putin is not a dog reacting. He is the human in charge of a dog fighting ring out for what he can get for himself, not caring who or what he hurts to do that.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

tarbe said:


> We probably should not have been playing in the mean dog's front yard, taunting him. We have to take some responsibility for what is happening, because any reasonable person might expect this would happen.


We weren’t playing in the dog’s front yard. We were solidly in the neighbor’s yard, and were there on their invitation. What we did to “taunt” the dog was to help the neighbor put up a fence so they wouldn’t have to listen to the dog’s growling all day, and could let their children out to play in their own yard without worry about that mad dog attacking them.

We didn’t threaten the dog. We threatened his ability to someday make a meal of the neighbor’s children. The dog thought the entire neighborhood rightly belonged to him, and he didn’t like us reinforcing the neighbors’ fences and making a pact with them to shoot the dog if he ever got off his chain and attacked one of the neighbors on their own property.

Now we’re watching from our kitchen window as that dog mauls one of the neighbors’ children… just not one of the neighbors who came to the neighborhood meeting about the dog, so, instead of actually doing something to stop it, we just shout “bad dog” at it… very sternly.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mad Dog 2022


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Is anyone surprised by what Puting is doing, now that he feels he has a longer leash?

I think his calculations changed considerably when we replaced Trump with Biden. We maybe should have changed our calculations, too.

As it is, all the weeping and gnashing of teeth rings kinda hollow. Like the guy who gets drunk and then whines about a DUI.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

tarbe said:


> Is anyone surprised by what Puting is doing, now that he feels he has a longer leash?


It is quite possible that longer leash will be enough to hang himself.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

tarbe said:


> we replaced Trump with Biden


I want an apology from those responsible. I want them to promise they will not do that again.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> I want an apology from those responsible. I want them to promise they will not do that again.


That what the poll watchers were for.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

HDRider said:


> Are you suggesting they lack the will to do so?


I suspect they have the will to take down the power grid or do even worse. Just not been given the motivation to do so.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> "if the west escalates". I can't believe you posted that. Putin is murdering innocent people for no reason other than power.


Power is a common reason with long history for murdering people. Right or wrong makes little difference. The issue will continue long into the feature.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> Putin is not a dog reacting. He is the human in charge of a dog fighting ring out for what he can get for himself, not caring who or what he hurts to do that.


Good point.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Putin is not a dog reacting. He is the human in charge of a dog fighting ring out for what he can get for himself, not caring who or what he hurts to do that.


Well, I did say it is an analogy. 

*Definition of analogy*

1a*: *a comparison of two otherwise unlike things based on resemblance of a _*particular aspect*_
b*: *resemblance in some particulars between things _*otherwise unlike*_ *: *SIMILARITY



Just trying to keep it straight....


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

How does Putin pay those troops???


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

TripleD said:


> How does Putin pay those troops???


Europe and the US buy his oil and gas.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

GTX63 said:


> It is quite possible that longer leash will be enough to hang himself.


Certainly possible. It is also entirely possible Putin would rather escalate the conflict to other countries before he is defeated. He is unpredictable and the more other countries pressure him, the more unpredictable he becomes.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

poppy said:


> Certainly possible. It is also entirely possible Putin would rather escalate the conflict to other countries before he is defeated. He is unpredictable and the more other countries pressure him, the more unpredictable he becomes.


Given the irrationality of this, I don't think Putin is really in charge or he is other some other influence. This is operation is not consistent with his past behavior.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Hiro said:


> Given the irrationality of this, I don't think Putin is really in charge or he is other some other influence. This is operation is not consistent with his past behavior.


Maybe Ukraine is a diversion. Who is watching Putin? We have intelligence agencies. But they are probably busy staking out PTA meetings.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Mad Dog 2022


You know when you drank too much of something a long time ago and you think about it later? I gagged a little.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

barnbilder said:


> Maybe Ukraine is a diversion. Who is watching Putin? We have intelligence agencies. But they are probably busy staking out PTA meetings.


I'm sure it is some sort of diversion.

Still trying to figure out, though, why people are pulling for a country (Ukraine) whose leaders said it supports One World Order.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

It doesn't have to be about a country.
It can be about the people.
I don't think anyone wants to see Russia, or China or N Korea, etc invaded by *___* and its people terrorized, forced to flee, murdered and their cities destroyed.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Pony said:


> I'm sure it is some sort of diversion.
> 
> Still trying to figure out, though, why people are pulling for a country (Ukraine) whose leaders said it supports One World Order.


I don’t know the quote you’re talking about, but I bet you’d be hard pressed to find any European leader who doesn’t or hasn’t claim to be for a one world government.

On the other hand, the quickest way to a one world government is to let a dictator with delusions of grandeur go around taking over other countries. Eventually you’d end up with two or three empires, and then two, and then one… world empire.

I don’t expect to agree with anyone on everything.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I don’t know the quote you’re talking about, but I bet you’d be hard pressed to find any European leader who doesn’t or hasn’t claim to be for a one world government.
> 
> On the other hand, the quickest way to a one world government is to let a dictator with delusions of grandeur go around taking over other countries. Eventually you’d end up with two or three empires, and then two, and then one… world empire.
> 
> I don’t expect to agree with anyone on everything.


At this point, I suppose it is best to not even conjecture.

The "leaders" (ie despots) are going to do what they're going to do.

And I am going to do what I can do. I am praying for those people who, like us, have an illegitimate government, and are trapped in the crosshairs.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Pony said:


> At this point, I suppose it is best to not even conjecture.
> 
> The "leaders" (ie despots) are going to do what they're going to do.
> 
> And I am going to do what I can do. I am praying for those people who, like us, have an illegitimate government, and are trapped in the crosshairs.


It’s either a scary time to be alive, or an incredibly sporty one, depending on your perspective and what’s to come.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> It’s either a scary time to be alive, or an incredibly sporty one, depending on your perspective and what’s to come.


It looks like the Almighty's end game is coming into sight, but I think it will still be a while before the excrement hits the oscillator.

Still, a good time to be on my knees, looking to see wonders and miracles.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> It’s either a scary time to be alive, or an incredibly sporty one, depending on your perspective and what’s to come.


Right now, it is just sporty here. I have a feeling it is going to get scary in a lot of places in a hurry. It is going to get expensive everywhere......


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Hiro said:


> Right now, it is just sporty here. I have a feeling it is going to get scary in a lot of places in a hurry. It is going to get expensive everywhere......


The lesson learned by the sanctions on Russia, implemented as a joint effort by governments and business, is they can be used in any fashion against anyone for any reason, to get everyone heading toward you owning nothing, but being happy.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

HDRider said:


> The lesson learned by the sanctions on Russia, implemented as a joint effort by governments and business, is they can be used in any fashion against anyone for any reason, to get everyone heading toward you owning nothing, but being happy.


The lesson that should be learned from this is not be dependent on other nations for your energy, food, fertilizer or security. Europe was warned long ago and continued down the primrose path. A communist pretender was installed here and sabotaged our domestic and neighboring friendly nations energy industry so we could buy oil from people that are our adversaries. It would be comical if innocent people weren't being killed and a lot of people will starve this year.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Hiro said:


> The lesson that should be learned from this is not be dependent on other nations


On a personal level I agree, but the new world order is all for one, and one for all


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

HDRider said:


> On a personal level I agree, but the new world order is all for one, and one for all


I don't believe we disagree on the goals of the globalists for a new world order. I just have my doubts about their ability to make it happen. To quote a wiser philosopher about their plans:


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Hiro said:


> I don't believe we disagree on the goals of the globalists for a new world order. I just have my doubts about their ability to make it happen.


When governments and industry can bend the will of Swiss banks it has true power.

I see a lot of momentum for TGR


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

HDRider said:


> When governments and industry can bend the will of Swiss banks it has true power.
> 
> I see a lot of momentum for TGR


I see more momentum for a Great Awakening.


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

Berwick said:


> I am very interested to read what the feeling about this is in the USA.


And I am still interested.


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