# American Heritage Girls vs. Girl Scouts



## Peacock (Apr 12, 2006)

I hope this doesn't raise flames; I debated putting it in GC but it's more of a family topic so it's here. I'd really like to discuss this in a safe place (for me!) because it's become pretty important here lately and stirs up a lot of heated emotion locally.

As you may know, I'm a big GS supporter. I was a GS for many years myself, DD has been in since Kindergarten, I've been a co-leader for 6 years. Next year I'll be the troop leader, I was recruiter last year and now am serving as the service unit registrar and webmaster. Whew!

I'd barely even heard of AHG till last fall when I started recruiting. But apparently it's a big snarky competition within our school system and certain others. Being Christian-based, AHG has honestly not been overtly mean; I respect the program and the ladies who run it, but that isn't preventing some of the people involved from being a bit "competitive" and judgmental.

AHG started in West Chester, Ohio - very near where we used to live - as a Christian mom's protest against Girl Scouts. She and some other families didn't like some GS policies. AHG attracts the very conservative, fundamentalist Christian families because it specifically supports girls' Christian development. It's national now -- I was told that there are AHG troops now in every continental state.

I posted about being invited for dinner by this family in my son's Cub Scout den. They're one of those homeschooling Christian families, which I do respect. My DH asked if their daughter would be going into GS next year, as she's just at that age. Her mom said no, she'd do AHG. Unaware of the big stink, DH innocently asked me why I'd recommend GS instead...and I just said I wasn't going to talk about it. It had too much potential to not be nice.

Here's my beef with AHG. It's exclusive, not diversified. AHG refer to themselves as "scouts." To me, a "scouting" program should be about widening girls' horizons about the world they live in, not sheltering them from cultures and beliefs that may "taint" their pure little Christian selves. GS is all about connecting with girls across the world -- black, white, red, purple, whatever, Jewish, Hindu, etc. GS has faith-based awards available but doesn't require them. GS teaches girls to be independent, strong and succeed in any area they choose - from engineering to homemaking. GS is flexible and open to interpretation. AHG, on the other hand, is about learning how to be a good Christian woman. Which is a very good goal, but I don't think it should be called "scouts" or have vests and badges like a "scouts" program.

I don't dislike AHG in itself. What I hate is the "alternative" comparison, that AHG is equivalent to GS, just another "flavor" of the same thing. I would see it more along the lines of 4H vs. Girl Scouts -- each valuable, but with a totally different focus. 

Comments? Thanks!


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## Bwana (Jul 9, 2006)

Yeah, I agree that they shouldn't try to copycat the GS. It's cool to do your own thing, just keep it unique imho. I give 'em credit for seeing a need and filling it. 

Dave


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## matt633 (Apr 11, 2007)

I know I am going to get blasted here....but I am going to do my best to keep it nice and just tell you what I feel...being "one of those Christian homeschooling families". 

From the perspective that I hear...you should be flattered. It imitates GS, b/c many people who go for AHG, do love scouting and the old GS ways. You must respect the fact that for those of us who don't agree w/ the homosexual lifestyle or who do agree w/ being submissive wives who stay at home w/ their kids....GS doesn't fit the bill these days. I AM NOT saying this is across the board, but my understanding is that GS supports homosexuals and the ones I know of teach a "girl power" attitude. NOW, I dont' care to support the homosexual movement anymore than they care to support their local Baptist church! This does not make me a bigot, I assure you...my SIL is a lesbian and I love her dearly...but I don't support her lifestyle or endorse it to my daughter. I also don't care for the "girl Power" attitude that our local GS pushes. I want my daughter to stand on her own two feet and be proud of her accomplishments, but I also want her to learn the ways of the women of old...and have a quiet and gentle spirit that pours forth from the Holy Spirit w/in her. This seems to be more the direction of AHG. I also have seen a leaning more towards homemaking skills, which is a deciding factor for some.

I am not protesting GS, I was a Girl Scout and have very fond memories of scouting. And, BTW, my DD isn't in either...she is involved in church, 4H, and homeschooling groups. And I make no generalizations....I am sharing what I have seen/heard/ or experienced and my opinion on it. Maybe you should look at it as simply an option instead of competition. Ya know like Burger King and McDonalds'...some like one, some like the other, and some like both......no big deal, they are both still in business. Freedom to choose is one of the things that makes this country so great!

Hope this helped...it wasn't meant to rile anyone.

Rachael


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## Peacock (Apr 12, 2006)

Rachael, it isn't so much that we choose to see it as competition, but that they position themselves that way. I personally think that AHG and GS could complement each other rather than be at odds as either you are one or the other.

I do take issue with your statement that GS supports or endorses homosexuality -- I don't think you meant it quite as it seems here, but trust me, GS doesn't. But neither does it come out and say homosexuality is wrong. It's a non-issue. Sexuality of any kind, beyond healthy body issues, should not enter into a GS program, and therefore GS doesn't care about its members' lifestyles. The Boy Scouts are understandably worried about homosexuality and pedophilia, but it doesn't seem to be quite as much of an issue for paranoia and real concern among females. Thank goodness.

BTW...what's wrong with "girl power"???


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

edayna said:


> I do take issue with your statement that GS supports or endorses homosexuality -- I don't think you meant it quite as it seems here, but trust me, GS doesn't. BTW...what's wrong with "girl power"???


Apparently you don't know the same GS I do... apart from being a kiddo in brownies/juniors, I worked summer camp for the Magic Empire Council. Yeah, uhm... ahem. 

And the "girl power" thing was ridiculous. Little girls were repeatedly told by grown women who should know better, and I kid you not, what boiled down to girls being better than boys. Alot of the women I worked with had, shall we say, issues, and it wasn't pretty. To them, if you weren't or didn't want to be a man-hating career gal, you were wasting your life.

It's great to have two groups who do much the same thing, especially when they have different core beliefs... but I must say, no daughter of mine will ever be subjected to GS. I'd prefer she join Venturing at fourteen than get caught up in all that pitiful drama.

Your post seems to suggest you feel some derision towards Christians... ironic, isn't it?


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## Peacock (Apr 12, 2006)

jen74145 said:


> Apparently you don't know the same GS I do... apart from being a kiddo in brownies/juniors, I worked summer camp for the Magic Empire Council. Yeah, uhm... ahem.
> 
> And the "girl power" thing was ridiculous. Little girls were repeatedly told by grown women who should know better, and I kid you not, what boiled down to girls being better than boys. Alot of the women I worked with had, shall we say, issues, and it wasn't pretty. To them, if you weren't or didn't want to be a man-hating career gal, you were wasting your life.
> 
> ...


Derision toward Christians? I AM a Christian. Why would I feel derision?

The only derision I feel is toward those Christians who feel they must live on an insulated, sheltered island away from dangerous influences. 

My experiences with GS are definitely not like yours. Our local GS are much more interested in developing well-rounded girls than egocentric man-bashers. I'd be running from that too!

Oh, and I have to add...Venturing! Cool! That is what used to be called Explorers, isn't it? Co-ed Boy Scouts? I used to do that too. High Adventure!


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

edayna said:


> Derision toward Christians? I AM a Christian. Why would I feel derision?
> 
> The only derision I feel is toward those Christians who feel they must live on an insulated, sheltered island away from dangerous influences.


I didn't say YOU did, I said your post seemed to suggest it, which struck me as funny, since you seem to feel AHG feels derision towards you and your program. Perhaps a case of misundertanding between "you and them" a casual conversation migh clear up.

And, some Christians feel keeping their children away from dangerous influences is the only way to give them a healthy, strong foundation in their faith, rather than putting them in situations they don't have the Biblical knowledge and understanding to deal with yet.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

edayna said:


> Oh, and I have to add...Venturing! Cool! That is what used to be called Explorers, isn't it? Co-ed Boy Scouts? I used to do that too. High Adventure!


Explorers is still their own thing, I believe... Venturing is a BSA spinoff.


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## matt633 (Apr 11, 2007)

edayna said:


> Sexuality of any kind, beyond healthy body issues, should not enter into a GS program, and therefore GS doesn't care about its members' lifestyles. The Boy Scouts are understandably worried about homosexuality and pedophilia, but it doesn't seem to be quite as much of an issue for paranoia and real concern among females. Thank goodness.
> 
> BTW...what's wrong with "girl power"???



Well, if that is the case for you , then I am glad....but you need to do some checking on GS's partners. Why do you thing BSA is swimming in litigation and GSA isn't?? And I wouldn't say that men were the only ones capable of pedophilia OR homosexuality.

Oh, and as I said, "girl power" just isn't an attitude I desire for my daughter...we prefer to depend on "the power of the Holy Spirit". As I said earlier, she is being raised to have a gentle submissive spirit...the two don't exactly go together! Again...I think it is good to have a choice; I don't think anyone is competing.


Jen...what is Venturing?? We have looked into something from Keepers of the Faith for our DD10 and DS6. They have a program for girls and one for boys. It contains skills, character traits, Bible memory and more.... you can order your own badges, and I like it b/c it is flexible enough that you could do it w/ just your own kids, a church or homeschool group, or form your own small group. There is no national/regional headship, just a guide to do your own thing. JUst another "option".

Rachael


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## matt633 (Apr 11, 2007)

sorry, jen...I was posting at the same time.

And ditto on the keeping kids from dangerous influences. I am not sheltering my kids from the world, but preparing a firm foundation so that they may better succeed in it when they are old enough. Do you let your kids play in the street and tell them to watch for cars....or do you keep them out of the street??

Rachael


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## MorrisonCorner (Jul 27, 2004)

So you've got my CV: girl scout from Brownies forward, earned every Junior badge offered, mother head of the state GS coucil for 6 years. Last involved in scouting 20 years ago.

I am following this with some interest, but I believe each person's experience with scouting will be colored by regional variations. My scout leaders, the most influential ones, were two women... on gay and one who was married and never had children, earning a PhD at the time. The "gay" was never an issue, never mentioned, in fact, I would suspect that anyone who was not my mother's daughter, and therefore overhearing adult conversations, would not have known. The other woman was hardly what I'd call a "woman power" type.... she was following quietly in the wake of her husband's career trying to keep herself busy when it became obvious she wasn't going to have children of her own. The women who were "powerful" were the ones recruited to teach us "stuff." I don't even remember her name beyond "Julie's mom," but "Julie's mom" was a stay at home mother with a flair for textile arts. She taught me to embroider and sew and in very subtle ways that keeping a home nice was something you did when you had time.... but there was a lot more to life than a clean living room. Another mother was a secret drunk who rose to occassions when she had to. Girl Scouting let me into a lot of lives and a lot of secrets. A peek behind the curtain where you got to see the clutter of other people's lives.

However, as you can imagine when the formative years of a bunch of girls are influenced by someone earning a PhD, all of us went on to college, some to additional degrees. Looking back those women, the leaders and the ones they recruited to teach us skills, probably had more influence over our little forming lives than they (or we) realized at the time.

Sooooo... I suppose if it were important to me that my daughter be influenced more by her religion than other elements in society I would either form my own troop with that emphasis to it, or opt out of GS.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> As I said earlier, she is being raised to have a gentle submissive spirit...


OMG ... why would you want to handicap her that way? 

Remember, someday your little lamb will have to venture out among the wolves ... :nono:


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## Seeria (Jul 21, 2006)

Don't mistake submissive with being week or unable to protect oneself. Most my lady friends are "submissive" and two hold blackbelts, one is a hardcore advertising (wolf) agent. While some "submissive" type ladies might be unable or unwilling to defend themself physically, mentally, verbally, that certainly has not been the norm of submisisve woman I've met. 

Submissive is not week, vulnerable, a mat to tread upon.


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## Sherri C (Jun 21, 2002)

So is your complaint that they're using the term "scouts"? If so, then what do you think of the Spiral Scouts? They're a Pagan version of the Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts.


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## LamiPub (Nov 10, 2006)

because....having a gentle submissive spirit in no way lacks an intelligent mind or the ability to use it. *To understand a "gentle, submissive spirit" read Proverbs 31. The Proverbs woman in no way appears to be incapable of handling the wolves.* It is about the attitude not ignorance, weakness or servitude. 

As for the OP I see nothing wrong with a new club and parents should have the right to choose how to raise their children without judgement. I am sorry but I don't think you would appreciate me accusing you of raising your daughter to be a worldly, humanistic, gender confused woman. How would you feel if I told you that the way you are raising your daughter is just setting her up for heartache and failure when she gets out in the real world? My decision to "shelter" my daughter is my choice and responsibility. A parent is SUPPOSED to protect and shelter their child! In every other way if a parent doesn't they are accused of child abuse but it never ceases to amaze me how many people have the narrow minded audacity to assume they have the right to criticize and judge a "fundy", (gotta love those labels!) Christian, homeschooling parent.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Submissive is not week, vulnerable, a mat to tread upon.


Perhaps ours is a problem of semantics. 



> Submissive: inclined or ready to submit; unresistingly or humbly obedient: submissive servants.
> 1. tractable, compliant, pliant, amenable. 2. passive, resigned, patient, docile, tame, subdued.
> inclined or willing to submit to orders or wishes of others or showing such inclination;
> abjectly submissive; characteristic of a slave or servant;
> characterized by tendencies to yield to the will or authority of others


(Gleaned from Dictionary.com)

I would argue that "confident" and "assertive" (which does not necessarily mean "arrogant" and "aggressive") are better traits to instill in our girls than "gentle" and "submissive."


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## LamiPub (Nov 10, 2006)

A Christian takes the terms submissive and weak from a scriptural perspective...teh term submissive means to be under authority and a christan doesn't have a problem being under the authority and protection of Christ or their God appointed leaders. The terms quiet or meek denote a quiet confidence and assurance. An acceptance and trust in God. The word assertive could be taken different ways. Again read Proverbs 31. The woman had no problem being assertive (buying a field, caring for family and charity, running her household and business) she just did it in a quiet, confident, gentle, kind way. The difference again was her motivation-FAITH (not self serving egotistical goals) and TRUST (with trust comes confidence) and LOVE (love for her God, her husband and her family). *Read the passage and show me where you have a problem with this woman.*


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

Because snarking at someone is always a wonderful way to introduce them to your way of thinking...


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## MicheleMomof4 (Jul 17, 2002)

Willow,
The problem is you view the word submissive from the world's definition and we use the Bible's definition. Submissive is not laying down and taking anything. It is like others said, we are gladly under the protection of our Father. Maybe that makes it clearer to you.
And you know me from here.....I wouldn't fall under your idea of submissive, LOL 

Edayna,
I've seen this issue come up before in your posts. And I have to ask......why would it bother you how other people are raising their children? If I choose to protect my children, as I feel the Bible has told me to do, then why would that be any consequence to you? I am trying to understand why you would take exception to it as you stated.
You seem to have a distaste for those who homeschool for religious reasons and those who raise their children differently that you. I am left wondering why it is an issue for you at all?
God Bless,
Michele


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## Grandmotherbear (May 15, 2002)

Exploring WAS a former coed Boy Scout program for ages 14-21 either high adventure or career based 9think police Explorers Post) It has been replaced by Venturing- basic tenets the same- new name.

I wish that organizations that compete with Scouts (Boy or girl)would differentiate themselves. Royal Rangers used to have an almost identical uniform to BSA...I think that may be part of the initial post...fine to offer a different program, please don't copycat your uniform.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

this sounds a lot like awuanas (yes i am aware that i most like ly spelled that wrong that was the way it sounds)

I was a boyscout and am an Eagle scout (the only rank in boyscouting you get to keep for life)

the way i see it Girl Scouts got just a bit to Hillary Clinton for many mothers 
and while at least with boy scouts each troop in independent enought to be indeed their own ,meaning each troop is what local leadership does with it. there where obvios similarities between troops but let me assure you there were also day and night differances.

i dont think you should concern yourself with what other groups do but i do think the GS need a cooking merit badge we gave one guys sister the cooking merit badge when she completed the BS requirments at our camp (he father said the GS had done away with the cooking badge at that time)


out troop pushed first aid , emergengy prepairedness and community service 
we had a doctor, nurse ,and emts as parts of our leadership this is not to say we did not have a lot of fun , canoeing camping , shooting ,fishing,and doing some very large pionering projects 

and cider we had one campout at a leaders apple orchard and we made more than 50 gallons of cider 

so what i am saying is go forth and be your own troop make it what you want it to be the name is more for thier insurance than anything else in many cases 
i asked the girls next door when they came to sell me cookies what they did in girl scouts responce : go to meetings , camp once a year and sell cookies 

please for your daughters be more than that 
our BS troop tried to have one event a month most camping yes we camped in the snow i suppose we could have sounded a bit like the army reserves one weekend a moth 2 weeks a year 

and happy camping , but remember to do service projects too.


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## RockyGlen (Jan 19, 2007)

matt633 said:


> We have looked into something from Keepers of the Faith for our DD10 and DS6. They have a program for girls and one for boys. It contains skills, character traits, Bible memory and more.... you can order your own badges, and I like it b/c it is flexible enough that you could do it w/ just your own kids, a church or homeschool group, or form your own small group. There is no national/regional headship, just a guide to do your own thing. JUst another "option".
> 
> Rachael


We do Keepers At home and Contenders for the Faith. We do it with 3 other families, for a total of 25 kids. It is wonderful! If you have any questions about it, feel free to PM me - we have been doing it for years now.


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## RockyGlen (Jan 19, 2007)

Had to read the whole thread before I could respond. 

I have never heard of AHG, but we do Keepers At Home and Contenders for the Faith clubs. We do not call ourselves scouts, but the kids do earn badges for various things. It is most definitely a Christian based thing, but each club has it's own leadership and method so there is no governing body telling what to do.

Our girls and boys have opportunites to earn all the same badges - the girls can earn camping badges and the boys could earn sewing badges if they so chose. It's not that the girls are stuck sitting in the house embroidering while the guys get to use compasses and slingshots. 

Our "club" chose not to do sashes and badges as we think it's prideful to wear something that says "look how great I am". The boys made banners to hang on the wall and they put their pins on those, while some of the girls made banners, some made pillows, and some made country style dolls that they pin their pins on the dolls pinafore. The kids were the ones who chose to do pins rather than the badges.

In this program, you can earn badges for Bible memory, many activities like camping, basketweaving, etc., and also for things like charity work, leadership, teaching others, and other moral/ethical pursuits.

Our boys did scouts for years, and then our oldest daughter got to scout age. After attending a few meetings and looking at the handbooks and such - it was not right for us at all. We searched out an alternative, and after a few months our boys asked if they could stop scouts and join the girls club. The boys from two other families asked if they could, and then the girls from those families joined us, too.

The GSA has a political agenda and it is most definitely NOT an agenda my family shares. 

http://www.cwfa.org/articledisplay.asp?id=8808&department=CFI&categoryid=papers

if that article is too biased for you, do a google search for girl scouts abortion feminism - you will see many mainstream media articles about their focus.


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## MicheleMomof4 (Jul 17, 2002)

Rocky,
I have been pondering Keepers and Contenders, thanks for the heads up. I think I will see if a few other families in the neighborhoods want to join in (they have boys and we have both). 
And we do not do scouts for the same reason as you listed. I use to be a brownie leader and when I dug deeply I did not like what I saw.
God Bless,
Michele


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## matt633 (Apr 11, 2007)

Rocky...looks like we have another thing in common!! I'll PM you later...I gotta get to the grocery store!

Willow...I would like to offer the following explanation so that you can understood our perspective. I know that you are open-minded to factually based argument, so I will say...I agree with michele, we base the word submission on a Biblical context..you may not agree, but just so you see what we are talking about. I assure neither me or my daughter are weak minded, rollover type people...in fact, my husband wouldn't respect me if I were. It's just that for those of us try to live by the Bible, we happily fall under the authority of Christ and our husband.

Submission...from the greek _hupotasso_, meaning "to obey, subdue, submit oneself unto." this is not a passive verb...it is a definite action, as well as a choice.

Hand in hand w/ that is being what the Bible calls a helpmeet...check out the following qualities that all fall under helpmeet according to their Greek counterparts: Worthy; suitable; necessary; fit; competent; profitable;useful;well placed/appropriate;just. Those are many of the qualities (and more) that go along w/ Proverbs 31. Those are the things I believe we trying toteach our daughters. Not to be weak minded servants. But to obey God's commands in order to have a joyful, abundant life accepting and enjoying God's call of a woman. And just as a respect your right to believe as you do, I am sure you will respect my right to raise my daughter the best way I see fit!

Edayna...I have to agree w/ some of the others. Since you have stated that you are in fact a Christian, what is your beef w/ those who have a godly conviction to homeschool and protect their children from things that we don't feel they are old enough/ Biblically grounded enough to yet handle? Isn't that why kids don't move out at 10, instead of 18?!!! Do you believe God put our children in our charge until they are prepared to spread their wings and fly? If yes, then remember, it's ok if we don't all do it the same way!

>>>>>and they call us conservatives narrowminded????

Rachael


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## matt633 (Apr 11, 2007)

oh yeah....thanks for the link, Rocky. I have just heard (from ALOT of people) about the new GSA agenda and it was pretty "girl power" when I got out of it (which my mom liked...then). Anyways, glad I have something to back it up!

Rachael


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## Peacock (Apr 12, 2006)

MicheleMomof4 said:


> Edayna,
> I've seen this issue come up before in your posts. And I have to ask......why would it bother you how other people are raising their children? If I choose to protect my children, as I feel the Bible has told me to do, then why would that be any consequence to you? I am trying to understand why you would take exception to it as you stated.
> You seem to have a distaste for those who homeschool for religious reasons and those who raise their children differently that you. I am left wondering why it is an issue for you at all?
> God Bless,
> Michele


You've misinterpreted my post. Probably several of them.

The issue is not that I care how other people raise their children. And I do not have a distaste for those who homeschool for religious reasons. Did you get that impression from my recent post about the homeschooling family? If so, I'm sorry. If someone has a strong faith that requires them to be set apart from the world - such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Amish, fundamentalists, whomever - more power to 'em. I hope it works for them, I really do.

As for GS' beliefs -- you don't have to agree with EVERYTHING an organization does or supports in order to find value from it. Someone pointed that out to me when I was wondering about whether I belonged in my church. That's not the issue either.

As I said, at least twice, I think AHG and GS can coexist and even complement each other. Heck, I might even send my DD to AHG programs if there were time for both, like I might enroll her in 4H as well. I just don't think it's "scouts" and don't think it should be presented as the scouts alternative. I've actually heard it described as_ Christian_ Girl Scouts. And several times I've had to fight with the school district to get "Girl Scouts" off of a flyer reference for AHG. It's probably a wonderful program, but it isn't "Scouts."


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## Peacock (Apr 12, 2006)

Sherri C said:


> So is your complaint that they're using the term "scouts"? If so, then what do you think of the Spiral Scouts? They're a Pagan version of the Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts.


I don't know anything about Spiral Scouts, but if their mission is to widen girls' horizons, minds and hearts, teach them to reach their full potential and to serve, then it certainly deserves "scouts" in its title. JMHO.

I don't think GSUSA or BSA has any kind of ownership of the term "scouts" or anything. It's just that over time, "scouts" has developed a sort of perception that this is what "scouts" do.


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## Peacock (Apr 12, 2006)

Grandmotherbear said:


> Exploring WAS a former coed Boy Scout program for ages 14-21 either high adventure or career based 9think police Explorers Post) It has been replaced by Venturing- basic tenets the same- new name.
> 
> I wish that organizations that compete with Scouts (Boy or girl)would differentiate themselves. Royal Rangers used to have an almost identical uniform to BSA...I think that may be part of the initial post...fine to offer a different program, please don't copycat your uniform.


Thanks, Grandmotherbear -- this is exactly what I'm saying.


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## Jan Doling (May 21, 2004)

Thanks for introducing me to AHG...we had nothing but bad experiences with the GS here.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Thanks for turning us on to the AHG. It's funny to see everyone get bent out of shape over AHG with all the darts slung when they basically are what GS's was at it's founding.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

edayna said:


> I don't know anything about Spiral Scouts, but if their mission is to widen girls' horizons, minds and hearts, teach them to reach their full potential and to serve, then it certainly deserves "scouts" in its title. JMHO.
> 
> I don't think GSUSA or BSA has any kind of ownership of the term "scouts" or anything. It's just that over time, "scouts" has developed a sort of perception that this is what "scouts" do.


huh? How do you get this to jibe with:




edayna said:


> As for GS' beliefs -- you don't have to agree with EVERYTHING an organization does or supports in order to find value from it. Someone pointed that out to me when I was wondering about whether I belonged in my church. That's not the issue either.
> 
> As I said, at least twice, I think AHG and GS can coexist and even complement each other. Heck, I might even send my DD to AHG programs if there were time for both, like I might enroll her in 4H as well. I just don't think it's "scouts" and don't think it should be presented as the scouts alternative. I've actually heard it described as Christian Girl Scouts. And several times I've had to fight with the school district to get "Girl Scouts" off of a flyer reference for AHG. It's probably a wonderful program, but it isn't "Scouts."


huh?


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## MicheleMomof4 (Jul 17, 2002)

edayna said:


> You've misinterpreted my post. Probably several of them.


This is a pointless discussion if your just going to go back after being called on something and edit it out of your post. And then act as if it never was there. And have the nerve to tell someone they misinterpreted your thoughts. No, I read it just fine and now instead of you owning up to your comment where you said you take issue with those whose religious beliefs have them "alienating" children from the world, you have just decided it doesn't exist since you edited it out now. You said it, we read it and now your acting as if we are in the wrong by not understanding your point.
If you can't defend , apologize or explain your thoughts , a least say "You know I am not sure why I said that." But just acting as if you never typed those words out and posted them? Goodness, your smarter than that. :nono: 
God Bless,
Michele


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Although my son is boy scout; here's my problem with Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts:

Boy Scouts only score a 41 as a non-profit organization as far as funds coming in and what actually goes to the community and scouts themselves. Roy Williams, the Chief Scout Executive's salary is $486,083 a year; J. Carey Keane, the Group Director: $525,975 (take into consideration that the director of the American Cancer Society, Red Cross, World Vision, and most others make less -- in fact the Feed the Children's director only makes around $100,000).

Girls Scouts score a bit better at 58, but only because of Kathy Cloninger, Chief Executive Officer, who's salary is only $333,238.

In both organizations, the expenses are so staggering high. There really is no reason for such high costs (you should see their buildings!) and salaries. 

You can check into any charity/non-profit corporation at: http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm


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## Heidi's_Goats (Mar 21, 2007)

It sounds like AHG and GS are nothing alike. When you are recruiting power yourself with information from both sides. You need to learn exactly what each program is about to aid yourself.

I had good times and bad times in GS. What I didn't like was that a woman was running the group and it always became who had the most money. That was how trips were funded. Of course we had little so I had to rely on the generosity of others. Other times I loved hanging out with my friends and hiking the Chilkoot Trail.

If my children choose they will be participating in 4-H, FFA, Venture Crew, and GS or BS. I believe a wide spectrum of activities will help develop their understanding of the world around them. If I had not been in 4-H for 9 years I would not be the person that I am. Everyone praises my cooking...haha Guess where I learned that.

I have very high esteem for the Boy Scouts. My father was Scout Master of the Year in Alaska for 1988 or 87. My father and 2 brothers also were awarded their Eagle Awards and Order of the Arrow. I hope my son chooses to follow in their foot steps.

GS is a good organization. You have to find the right troop to fit your needs or create your own.


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## Peacock (Apr 12, 2006)

MicheleMomof4 said:


> This is a pointless discussion if your just going to go back after being called on something and edit it out of your post. And then act as if it never was there. And have the nerve to tell someone they misinterpreted your thoughts. No, I read it just fine and now instead of you owning up to your comment where you said you take issue with those whose religious beliefs have them "alienating" children from the world, you have just decided it doesn't exist since you edited it out now. You said it, we read it and now your acting as if we are in the wrong by not understanding your point.
> If you can't defend , apologize or explain your thoughts , a least say "You know I am not sure why I said that." But just acting as if you never typed those words out and posted them? Goodness, your smarter than that. :nono:
> God Bless,
> Michele


I didn't edit out anything! Tell me what exactly I edited out.

Edited HERE to add -- I just went back and looked at my first post, if that's what you're referring to; the last edit was at 1:53 AM, 20 minutes after I posted it, probably to correct a typo.


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## MicheleMomof4 (Jul 17, 2002)

edayna said:


> The only derision I feel is toward those Christians who feel they must live on an insulated, sheltered island away from dangerous influences.



Your absolutely correct, you did not edit it out. I thought it was in your first post, went to find it and saw that it was not there. Then saw you edited it and thought you had edited it out. As for the time stamp, it means nothing to me as it has never been 'right' on my end so I pay no mind to it. I sincerely apologize for my mistake about your edit. 

However,I have found the post that you made and quoted it above. This is the one I read and based my response to. So I don't feel I misinterpreted it at all. 

So now I ask you, why do you care if other Christians want to isolate themselves? What bearing does it have on your own life? It has none. So why does it bother you?
God Bless,
Michele


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## trixiwick (Jun 9, 2004)

MicheleMomof4 said:


> why do you care if other Christians want to isolate themselves? What bearing does it have on your own life? It has none. So why does it bother you?


I don't know why I'm wading into such a mess, but hey, it's Friday.  

I do think that when a group chooses to isolate itself, it can influence the outside world. Depends on whether it's a big/influential enough group. If the Amish wish to withdraw into their own community, I think there's little to no negative impact. If, say, a majority such as white people decide they do not wish to mix with non-white people, can you see how a minority group might feel about that, and how the decision to isolate can impact more than oneself? Similarly, if a minority community decides to isolate rather than assimilate, it can wind up being a problem that the larger society is stuck with.

*Not* saying that your decision is akin to racism, because it isn't, but just trying to illustrate a different way of looking at it.


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## Peacock (Apr 12, 2006)

In that case, I apologize; that was a callous, inconsistent thing for me to say. Let me rephrase it, OK? Let me change the "derision" comment and say that I don't understand why people live that way, but I do respect it.


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## Peacock (Apr 12, 2006)

trixiwick said:


> I don't know why I'm wading into such a mess, but hey, it's Friday.
> 
> I do think that when a group chooses to isolate itself, it can influence the outside world. Depends on whether it's a big/influential enough group. If the Amish wish to withdraw into their own community, I think there's little to no negative impact. If, say, a majority such as white people decide they do not wish to mix with non-white people, can you see how a minority group might feel about that, and how the decision to isolate can impact more than oneself? Similarly, if a minority community decides to isolate rather than assimilate, it can wind up being a problem that the larger society is stuck with.
> 
> *Not* saying that your decision is akin to racism, because it isn't, but just trying to illustrate a different way of looking at it.


Which is another beef I have with AHG -- it isn't inclusive. That's the word I couldn't think of last night, inclusive.  As a white Christian family we'd be welcomed into AHG, and I'm sure it's not racist, but you can't find any Jewish people there, or Hindu, etc. I suppose they should go and create their own "Girl Scout" organization just for Jewish girls? Another for Hindu girls? Another for Pagan girls? Oh wait, there is...it was mentioned earlier. 

These can be very good organizations, very useful to a child's development, but it's really not the same thing as GS at all and shouldn't appear to fit the same pattern.

I may also want to amend what I said earlier about Spiral Scouts -- do you have to be Pagan to be in it, or are Christians welcome too?

I mean you can dredge up the argument that "if it's not about you, why would you want to be in it?" which is certainly true, but then, it wouldn't be comparable to GS.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Again read Proverbs 31. The woman had no problem being assertive (buying a field, caring for family and charity, running her household and business) she just did it in a quiet, confident, gentle, kind way. The difference again was her motivation-FAITH (not self serving egotistical goals) and TRUST (with trust comes confidence) and LOVE (love for her God, her husband and her family). Read the passage and show me where you have a problem with this woman.


I don't. But if you are raising your daughter to be a shrewd and savvy businesswoman, are you in fact teaching her to be meek and submissive? Again, perhaps our problem is one of semantics. Or perhaps it lies in the fact the Bible actually offers two very different standards of womanhood to aspire to ... the Proverbs 31 woman, who is autonomous, independent, and competent, and Paul's NT woman, who is to sit down, shut up, and submit to her husband. It's a bit hard to reconcile the two, no?!

I have argued before that the great popularity of the Bible may stem from the fact it offers multiple-choice answers to a lot of life's great questions ... thus people of different backgrounds or persuasions can pick the one they like best, and feel comfortable defending their viewpoint from a Scriptural perspective. The confident, assured Christian businesswoman can point to Proverbs 31 as her inspiration, while an immature woman who wishes to delegate all adult responsibility to her spouse and remain, in essence, a perpetual child, also can find Scriptural backing for her preferences. Convenient, isn't it?

Sadly, those conflicting visions of ideal womanhood also could serve a darker purpose by keeping some women forever uneasy about their personal choices. I can see the Proverbs 31 woman being held up as a reproach to the stay-at-home wife who does little to contribute to her family's earnings. And surely the NT passages have been used to smack down women throughout the ages who envisioned a role larger than "kinder, kuche, kirch."

Back to the subject at hand: I was a Girl Scout and my mother was a Girl Scout leader, and it seems the philosophy of the organization, way back when, was to encourage girls to learn about and feel a kinship with their peers in other regions, nations and cultures. This was, interestingly, long before the advent of the "diversity" battle cry. I'm not sure how much of this philosophy actually percolated down to the rank-and-file. Scouts, from my recollection, was all about doing crafts and the occasional group outing. I suspect it is much the same in many places today.


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## MicheleMomof4 (Jul 17, 2002)

trixiwick said:


> I don't know why I'm wading into such a mess, but hey, it's Friday.


Oh come on in, the waters warm. LOL

I understand your point and would agree if we were saying this is based on color, religion or things like that. I do not file my children away from those of colors or different religions. I protect them against harmful thinking and doings while they are young in their faith. They are young and I am bringing them up to be strong in their faith. I don't want their faith to be tempted or tested while they are too young to make informed biblical strong decisions. 
Some people see my protection until they can protect themselves as isolation. So I have to wonder, why it would concern them if I choose to protect my children's spirit,heart and faith? Is that not how we all want our children raised? No one I know looks at a 5 year old and says, 'Ah throw them to the wolves, they will learn!' No, all parents protected their children or should. We all do it in ways we are comfortable with. There is no right or wrong way. 
Tolerance and acceptance has really taken a back seat anymore. 
God Bless,
Michele


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## RockyGlen (Jan 19, 2007)

I'm confused......your complaint is that other groups are putting themselves forward as Scouts when they are not scouts? Is that correct?

According to Wikipedia: *Scouting, also known as the Scout Movement, is a worldwide youth movement with the stated aim of supporting young people in their physical, mental and spiritual development, so that they may play constructive roles in society.* Seems to me that if we use that definition, they are MORE scouting organizations than GSA is since they include spiritual development.

Neither American Heritage Girls or Keepers at Home is claiming to *be* scouts. They do claim to be a scouting alternative to GSA and BS- but so is 4H and I don't hear anyone complaining about that. So, is the complaint that they are Christian organizations?

As for inclusive........huh? I don't know why a non-Christian would want to join when everything is looked at through a Christian worldview. Just like I would not want to join Young Feminists of America (if such a thing existed). Would the fact that I did not want to join it mean they were not inclusive?

You might say GS is not inclusive because they don't allow boys. Or because they sell their cookies at such a high price that poor people can't afford them.


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## MicheleMomof4 (Jul 17, 2002)

edayna said:


> In that case, I apologize; that was a callous, inconsistent thing for me to say. Let me rephrase it, OK? Let me change the "derision" comment and say that I don't understand why people live that way, but I do respect it.


There are alot of things I don't get or understand. 
I don't understand why people let their teenage daughters run around with their grits hanging out the back of their hot pants either. LOL Or why people don't have their son's pull their pants up! I don't want to see their step in's, LOL
But none of those things make a difference in my life cause it is not my choices. Live and let live. 
God Bless,
Michele


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## RockyGlen (Jan 19, 2007)

willow_girl said:


> Or perhaps it lies in the fact the Bible actually offers two very different standards of womanhood to aspire to ... the Proverbs 31 woman, who is autonomous, independent, and competent, and Paul's NT woman, who is to sit down, shut up, and submit to her husband. It's a bit hard to reconcile the two, no?!


In my opinion they are not hard to reconcile at all unless you consider the NT verses to mean a woman must be a doormat. I am a submissive wife - my husband and children are my first priority, and my husband makes all major decisions (with my input - but he has the final say) unless he has delegated a decision to me. We work together in the family business, each doing the work best suited (I do all the books in our private and professional life because I have an accounting degree). Anyway.....teaching girls godly principles is NOT teaching them to be a ragdoll. 

If you read Proverbs 31 with the NT verses in mind, you'll notice that they are talking about an excellent WIFE...not necessarily all women. Also, the heart of her husband trusts her, and he has no lack of gain because of her - she does him good and not evil all the days of her life. Doesn't that sound like a submissive, loving, wife who takes good care of her husband? She does work that benefits her family, uses their money wisely, rises while it is yet dark and prepares food for them, and on and on until we read that her husband is known in the gates and sits with the elders. She is clothed with strength and dignity, has wisdom and is kind...all while she "looks well to the ways of her household, and does not eat the bread of idleness." Her husband praises her! That is a strong woman who's love and care binds her family together. 

And the NT verses largely deal with behavior in a church setting - not daily life - except for Titus 2, which reinforces everything the Prov. 31 woman is and goes a step further to instruct her to teach her daughters to be that way.

That is what I try to be, and what I want for my daughters and daughters in law. That is why we use a Christian based group rather than a humanist one. I see NO contradiction in the Bible about a godly woman. 

Submission does not equal weakness..........said by a submissive woman who went through natural childbirth 12 times!


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## Peacock (Apr 12, 2006)

MicheleMomof4 said:


> I understand your point and would agree if we were saying this is based on color, religion or things like that. I do not file my children away from those of colors or different religions. I protect them against harmful thinking and doings while they are young in their faith.


But this IS based on religion. I thought that was the point.


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## homemom1fl (Nov 28, 2004)

Both groups use the word "scout", I don't understand why this is an issue at all. With all that is going on in the world, why take offense at such a tiny thing and let it bother you? Perhaps the best way the AHG folks can explain their program is to liken it to a scouting program. 

As for parents choosing to shelter their children from "destructive influences", how is this a bad thing? I certainly do that and within the love and safety of our home we discuss the destructive influences that are out there and teach out children why we should avoid them and how to handle them once they are out on their own. That is our right as a parent, to raise our children as we see fit.


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## Peacock (Apr 12, 2006)

RockyGlen said:


> According to Wikipedia: *Scouting, also known as the Scout Movement, is a worldwide youth movement with the stated aim of supporting young people in their physical, mental and spiritual development, so that they may play constructive roles in society.* Seems to me that if we use that definition, they are MORE scouting organizations than GSA is since they include spiritual development.


GS DOES include spiritual development.

Please visit this link to learn about the HUGE variety of religious awards that may be earned through a girl's religious organization and GSUSA.
*http://www.praypub.org/recognitions/girlscout.htm*



> Neither American Heritage Girls or Keepers at Home is claiming to *be* scouts. They do claim to be a scouting alternative to GSA and BS- but so is 4H and I don't hear anyone complaining about that. So, is the complaint that they are Christian organizations?


AHG does refer to itself as "scouts."

Quote from the AHG website (emphasis mine):
_American Heritage Girls is a Christ-centered, non-profit scouting organization, offering a wholesome scouting program for girls, ages 5 to 18. AHG was founded with the love of God...through the love of families...for the love of children._
http://www.ahgonline.org/

I just don't understand what makes it "scouting."



> As for inclusive........huh? I don't know why a non-Christian would want to join when everything is looked at through a Christian worldview. Just like I would not want to join Young Feminists of America (if such a thing existed). Would the fact that I did not want to join it mean they were not inclusive?


I anticipated that comment up in a previous post...I said that someone would say "why would you want to join if it's not about you?" Which is true and perfectly fine, but don't call it a program that's comparable to GS.

I am very sad that so many people have had a negative experience with GS. I've been in two different service units and that hasn't been my experience at all. We do a lot more than sell cookies, make crafts and camp -- especially in Junior level and above. This past year we sold & donated $180 worth of GS cookies to the food pantry, collected a car full of supplies for an animal shelter, sent Easter baskets to a homeless shelter, and we're planning to help in a children's literacy program at the local library. 

Leadership is everything -- and please remember that everyone from service unit level down is a volunteer, not paid staff. If the leaders stink, so will the GS experience. Don't like it? Why not sign up yourself and make a difference in the lives of all of these girls? Remember, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem -- why is the solution so many seek to fixing something that is broken to bail out and start over?


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> If you read Proverbs 31 with the NT verses in mind, you'll notice that they are talking about an excellent WIFE...not necessarily all women. Also, the heart of her husband trusts her, and he has no lack of gain because of her - she does him good and not evil all the days of her life. Doesn't that sound like a submissive, loving, wife who takes good care of her husband? She does work that benefits her family, uses their money wisely, rises while it is yet dark and prepares food for them, and on and on until we read that her husband is known in the gates and sits with the elders. She is clothed with strength and dignity, has wisdom and is kind...all while she "looks well to the ways of her household, and does not eat the bread of idleness." Her husband praises her! That is a strong woman who's love and care binds her family together.


I think it would be very difficult to be a strong, autonomous woman and also be in submission to your husband 100 percent of the time. That's why I think this notion at least has the potential to be a terrible Catch 22 for women. Notice the Proverbs 31 woman "considers a field, and buys it" ... it doesn't say she considers it, and asks her husband's permission, or even his opinion. She is in essence running a business, or several businesses, as she sees fit. And I find it difficult to believe 100 percent of husbands are going to be in agreement with their wives' decisions 100 percent of the time. And when push comes to shove ...

The Proverbs 31 husband apparently is delighted with his wife's success and savvy; but what if he were threatened by it instead? And ordered her to defer all decision-making, etc., to him? It appears she is ALLOWED to be an autonomous adult ... is such a thing possible?


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## LamiPub (Nov 10, 2006)

You don't get it. No one can make anyone do anything. It is a CHOICE! I lifestyle choice based on faith. It is not something anyone forces on anyone. The woman either chooses to do it or not. So "if" (ugh I hate when the kids do the "what if" game) she picked a husband who would be threatened by her good business sense and successful running of the household she gets to a. choose to live with HER choice or b. make the choice to leave him or c. she stays and trys to work things out

Now to me an intelligent, confident, self assured, savvy woman of faith would take the time and choose her mate wisely. Also a confident, intelligent woman would have the stamina and people skills to effectively work things out imo. The only woman I see who would choose b and bail out would be the weak, selfish, helpless woman who is afraid to work and prefers to run and leave her messes behind her. In the rare instances where a woman choose so poorly and is in a relationship where her spouse cheats on her, abuses or abandons her or the children she has the scriptural blessing to leave that marriage. To me I am empowering my daughter in faith. Faith, love, hope, charity, joy, peace, confidence and contentment are what I am trying to share with my daughter. I haven't found any organization that can do that yet.

The only thing I liked about the GS is the THIN MINTS...yummm! When I was growing up we had this thing called Bluebirds and Camp Fire girls. I wonder if those organizations are still around and what the difference is between them and scouts?


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## Peacock (Apr 12, 2006)

homemom1fl said:


> Both groups use the word "scout", I don't understand why this is an issue at all. With all that is going on in the world, why take offense at such a tiny thing and let it bother you? Perhaps the best way the AHG folks can explain their program is to liken it to a scouting program.
> 
> As for parents choosing to shelter their children from "destructive influences", how is this a bad thing? I certainly do that and within the love and safety of our home we discuss the destructive influences that are out there and teach out children why we should avoid them and how to handle them once they are out on their own. That is our right as a parent, to raise our children as we see fit.


Not a bad thing at all. I just don't see anything in AHG's "programming" as they call it that encourages girls to develop a tolerant, loving worldview to different cultures. If you don't want to teach that to your children, that's certainly your prerogative. But don't bill the organization as a similar program, because the way I see it, AHG and GS are night & day.


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## homemom1fl (Nov 28, 2004)

edayna said:


> to develop a tolerant, loving worldview to different cultures.


Not trying to be contentious, but I don't undertstand how the above is a definition for scouting.  It seems to be a definition for political correctness, which I think is what the AVG folks are trying to avoid.

scoutÂ·ing /&#712;ska&#650;t&#618;&#331;/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[skou-ting] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
ânoun
1.	an act or instance of reconnoitering; reconnaissance.
2.	the activities of a scout or scouts.
3.	(often initial capital letter) the program of activities of the Boy Scouts or the Girl Scouts.


reconnoiter

verb
explore, often with the goal of finding something or somebody [syn: scout] 

So, both groups are looking to explore, just explore different things.


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## trixiwick (Jun 9, 2004)

MicheleMomof4 said:


> Oh come on in, the waters warm. LOL


If only I were sure it was water.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> This past year we sold & donated $180 worth of GS cookies to the food pantry


That would be, what, about 6 boxes? 

Kidding, of course ... I do love those Thin Mints, but yowie are they expensive!


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## Peacock (Apr 12, 2006)

60, actually.  They're $3 each.


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## MicheleMomof4 (Jul 17, 2002)

edayna said:


> But this IS based on religion. I thought that was the point.


Edayna,
I was quoting and answering Trixi on her response to isolation. Sorry for the thread drift.
God Bless,
Michele


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## MicheleMomof4 (Jul 17, 2002)

edayna said:


> Not a bad thing at all. I just don't see anything in AHG's "programming" as they call it that encourages girls to develop a tolerant, loving worldview to different cultures. If you don't want to teach that to your children, that's certainly your prerogative. But don't bill the organization as a similar program, because the way I see it, AHG and GS are night & day.


Wait. 
So, you have read their manuals, researched their beginnings, attended meetings and came to the conclusion that these _Christians_ are not tolerate loving or open to cultures? Those are pretty hefty accusations against a Christian organization.
God Bless,
Michele


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## Peacock (Apr 12, 2006)

You know what? I'm having a really bad day and I just don't have it in me to debate any more today. (sigh) I'm tired inside and out. I'm sorry I brought it up and I thank everyone for thoughtful replies.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

willow_girl said:


> That would be, what, about 6 boxes?
> 
> Kidding, of course ... I do love those Thin Mints, but yowie are they expensive!


seems wrong that THIN mints make you wear FAT pants...


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## morrowsmowers (Jun 14, 2004)

ZealYouthGuy said:


> seems wrong that THIN mints make you wear FAT pants...


Around here the girls ask if you want to buy "homemade cookies" -- I asked her whos home they were made in and she got very confused. If they really were good ole' home made cookies I would be slightly interested but they are only factory produced products which I can buy in any store for less money -- they need to make sure the girls learn truth in advertising I guess.

Ken in Glassboro, NJ


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## RockyGlen (Jan 19, 2007)

Edayna, I'm sorry you are so tired and I'm sorry if you feel that your opinion is not being respected. 

I guess I think of scouting as learning new, useful, skills and receiving encouragement and recognition for those things. In the program that we use, there are Christian badges, but there are also badges for wood carving, camping, hiking, fishing, orienteering, astronomy, and all the outdoorsy stuff that I think of as scouting. I guess I just don't understand the distinction that you perceive.

Anyway, I hope you get some rest and feel refreshed tomorrow.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Is this definition of submissive that is being touted subjective (your perception of the word) or objective (based on the Greek or Hebrew text)? Can you provide references and the defintion of the Greek word to back this up?

I've spent the last 10 minutes searching, but the word "submissive" is not in the King James New Testament. Instead, it says "subjected", which hardly sounds pleasant or empowering to me.


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## Peacock (Apr 12, 2006)

Isn't it nice how this thread just kind of wound down without having to be locked, because I said I was tired? 

And here comes Chamoisee to stir the pot up again.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Oh! LOL. :cringe: sorry! Maybe I should start a new thread for the submission debate. Actually, I really think we could open an entire forum on that subject.


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## matt633 (Apr 11, 2007)

chamoisee said:


> Is this definition of submissive that is being touted subjective (your perception of the word) or objective (based on the Greek or Hebrew text)? Can you provide references and the defintion of the Greek word to back this up?
> 
> I've spent the last 10 minutes searching, but the word "submissive" is not in the King James New Testament. Instead, it says "subjected", which hardly sounds pleasant or empowering to me.



GO back and read post #25. This is the Greek def, from my concordance. 
BUT, what is most pleasant and empowering is knowing you are in GOd's will, doing as He commands. That cannot be understood or explained in a single verse or definition. It is a conviction that comes from a relationship w/ my Heavenly Father. And that is something that really isn't even debateable. Each person must come to their own conclusion.

Rachael


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