# Best chance of saving them?



## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

I didn't start feeding soon enough 

Had huge beards hanging a few days ago, then we got 3 days of rain. When I went back out to the hives, one of them had masses of dead bees below the hive and almost clogging the opening. There are very few live bees, but I saw the queen in those few.

I'd made sure they had water, but hadn't supplemented them with sugar water lately. I don't know why I didn't realize there weren't enough blooms to keep them fed.

What's my best chance? Get brood from another hive to repopulate or something else? TIA


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## Dunkel68 (Jul 5, 2012)

I would probably grab a frame or two of nurse bees and brood from another hive to strenghten that one. I might also consider reducing the area of the hive down some depending on the population and your current configuration. How are the other hives doing? Something doesen't sound right about this hive. If you are sure it wasn't poision, how was the queen doing previously, did they swarm and carry off remaining stores?


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

It was a package I purchased earlier this year. I only have one other hive, a swarm I captured about the same time my package arrived. 

They had the deep brood box and I had put a medium on top of it when it looked like they had filled most of the bottom. I've removed the medium.

Because I was so nervous about killing the queen, I didn't often pull frames to see how things were going. Big mistake 

No swarm, piles of dead bees below the hive show where they went 

There were orientation flights going and tons of activity around the hive before the die off. I really feel it was the heat and no nectar that did it rather than poison. I made sure to keep water out, but not syrup.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

The piles of dead bees have me worried. I live close to Carol, got my 3 hives at the same time same supplier as her hive that is now in trouble. We could easily pull some brood frames from one of my hives and pop them in her hive....but with all the dead bees and we don't really know why they died. Would they really just starve to death this time of year? I see two of my hives not doing as well as the third and I guessed it was the heat and drought, they just are making less brood and less bees...but so far I'm not seeing piles of dead bees. I am feeding, but only for the last week or so.

Carol doesn't mention it in her post but her bees did get the full treatment recomended of tetracyline and fumaglin when the package was installed. We have mite strips but I've not put any my hives or suggested she do so yet this year.


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

From the smell, I think they died the first day of rain. Apparently enough dead bees stink like a bunch of dead Japanese beetles. The hive that still looks like it may make it have cleaned away the dead bees and I'm seeing a lot of activity there. I looked some in it and didn't see much if any in the way of stores


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## Elizabeth (Jun 4, 2002)

Don't beat yourself up. It's a learning curve for everyone. Some have better luck than others.

Best chance to save your other hive now is to feed, feed, feed. Don't stop until
they have drawn out and filled enough combs to get them through the winter. Unless you have a major nectar flow before the end of the summer? If not, get them fed and then get in the habit of checking them every 7-10 days. 

Don't worry about the queen- if you do smash her the bees can raise a new one, provided they are healthy and have fresh eggs/larvae.

Good luck- I hope they make it.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Keep syrup on them and maybre even a pollin patty. we are feeding here and are putting pollen patties on. We are into some thing nearing 60 days with out rain about as long with record highs and above normal temps . We want the queens to lay some to keep the poplation up for fall go into winter with a good cluster. Reduce *the entrance size as robbers will go after weak hives*

 Al


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

I don't have pollen patties, where do I get them quickly? I'll reduce the hive entrance.

ETA Do I add brood or will the queen repopulate the hive if I feed them enough?


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

OK, went in both hives. The worst one had, at most, a dozen bees inside, and I didn't see the queen in there any more.

The other has maybe 2/3 of the frames covered with a lot of bees, didn't see a queen, no brood and the bees are filling the old brood cells with the syrup I'm feeding them.


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## mtnmenagerie (Jun 16, 2007)

Bless their little hearts - you've gotten me on the ball to get some syrup out!


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

Good idea. If I don't find brood soon, I guess I requeen  It's the only time I've seen any of my queens...


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

*After reading all the new post here is what I think.* Hive with all the dead bees about the entrance area was robbed out but not compleately when you checked and saw the queen and a few bees. At that time the bees probably should have been placed in a nuc with a small entrance and fed. 
After you looked in one them the robbers continued to rob the hive out and finished off all the bees still alive in it includeing the queen.
Take a good look in the second hive for eggs a tiny white speck in the center of the cells. tilt the frame so the sun catchs the cell just right to light up the bottom. Look closely for the queen also. Set the frames in a deep set in the outer cover as you pull them to find the queen that way she isn't going back to a frame you already looked at. *Many of our colonies have queens that have nearly stopped laying eggs due to the drought.*Some we only saw a couple dozen eggs and brood in ten frames. We also do not have many drones about to mate with a virgin queen maybe a half dozen in 15 hives. She don't like the light and wil try to go over the frame to the other side so hold the frame over the deep you are taking them out of so if she falls she goes back in the hive. Once you are very sure there is no queen or eggs you can requeen but keep that entrance small you never know how many wild colonies are about and how strong they are.
With this hot weather drying all the blooms up it is panic time for the bees.
Pollen patties can be bought from nearly all the bee equipment supply houses. I like the ones from Mann Lake.You can also make your own there are recipes on the net that use brewers yeast.
Discussion here is do we feed a fall syrup mix or a spring mix to get the queens laying?

 Al


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

You really have to look close at the activity in front of the hives by the entrance. My wife told me we had a hive with lots of activity, more than the rest. I told her it was oreintation flights, but I didn't look at then close. A few days latter when we were doing the inspections in the yard, that hive was all robbed out.
Fighting at the entrance is a sign of robbery. Darting in and out the side of the landing board, and bees taking off that appear to be heavy is also signs of robbery.


 Al


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

Oh boy. They are not in a good mood and there's no way I will be able to see eggs with a hood on, not with the way my glasses and hood seem to clash... I think this is going to be painful... <whimper>

I'm beginning to think there was nothing to rob. I don't see any more in the second one than in the dead one than what they have put up of the syrup  It may have been a war, they are about 15 feet apart.

I looked all over town, but couldn't find any Brewer's yeast. I figure tomorrow, when the health stores open, I can find some. I hope


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Brewers yeast can be hard to find. May be faster to just order what you need from Mann lake many times it only takes a week to get all your order.
Here is a link to Tims web page and pollen patties and some recipes. Just search for the queen if you feel finding eggs is some thing beyound your skills. If you don't fine one then order a queen ASAP. I would pay the over night UPS shipping to get one fast befor a laying worker crops up.

Honey Run Apiaries | Beekeeping | Pollen Patties

 Al


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Are we sure Carols bee's starved? I've been thinking. The piles of dead bees disturbed me. I mean.....they are Carols bees but they came in the same time mine did and largely recieved exactly the same care my bees did. I started feeding my bees just a couple days before Carol found most of her bees dead. We only live 7 miles apart. If my bees are surviving on what they found here why did her bees starve so badly that piles of bees all died at the same time?

Then I remembered seeing a hornet take off with a bee when we were collecting that wild swarm less than a mile from Carols house. He only took off with the one bee...but the thread I read here last week
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/beekeeping/448984-hornets.html

Post number 7 by AverageJo. Those video links show documentaries of hornets that go from taking one or two bees back to the hive to a sudden attack by 30 hornets killing 30,000 bees in just a couple hours and then wiping out everything in the hive. All the brood and the honey.

I'm thinking there might be a reason Carol hasn't ever been able to keep a bee hive alive more than a season or two. I think she is feeding a hornet nest.


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

We have a store locally that carries brewing supplies. I would about bet they have the yeast.

However, I found capsules of bee pollen in the supplement aisle, will that do any good?


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Don't let that hornet thing side track you. In that thread/vido the hornets were taking the bees to feed their babies. There were bodies on the ground.

*The real reason there was a pile of dead bees just out side the entrance on the ground was because of the war. *One hive trying to defend it's home and the other trying to get it's stores. 
Not all things happen in the bee world on the same day to all of us. You got lucky and started feeding before it came down to a war for food. Thats the way of the world even with human kind a war for food, water, power and wealth are usally the causes.
I've seen swarms that have lived thru a driving down pour that lasted for many an hour and in one case days.

Don't buy those pollen capsules. They are really expencive for one thing. Do the brewers yeast or order the stuff from a bee supply company. They need the syrup right now more than the pollen. the pollen is for raiseing brood mostly.

 Al


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

ok good
Carol~ I saw some of my bees coming in with pollen on their legs when I was putting out syrup this morning so something must be blooming. Keep pouring the syrup to them maybe it will all come out ok. I've almost got my new boxes ready to put on, if you've got some medium frames and foundation maybe we could pull a frame of brood from each of my hives and put it to your hive. That would put you up three frames of brood and losing one frame each shouldn't hurt my hives much at all I wouldn't think.

Y'all that know how to do this
Should we pull some brood and nurse bees off my hives and move them to her place in the morning, the evening, the mid afternoon? We don't have any nucs~ how would we best proceed to move three frames of brood and nurse bees from my three hives the 7 miles to her place?
Thanks


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

Hers are also on medium frames and mine are deep.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Place 3 frames of brood in a medium box with 7 frames of foundation. No need for nurse bees unless they are desented it will cause an UP roar. Move any time of the day really, but a cooler time would be best so the brood doesn't over heat. Having mostly capped brood would be best as then you can keep an eye on it and remove the medium when they hatch out.

 Al


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

Sorry to be a pain, but... OK, I have masses of bees on the comb. I do not see a queen and they are filling the center cells with honey. They don't want me to get a good look. They are massed on the outside 3 frames, not in the center, though the center does have honey in the center cells and some bees working there. There is yellow wet stuff in maybe 10 or 15 cells, looks like pollen. I don't see any eggs.

If I bring brood, does it need to be new eggs so they can raise a queen if there isn't one? Do I need to bring brood farther along to keep the hive going then bring new eggs? I'm not wanting to do any more damage than I already have 

Thanks!


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Do a drone count. Do have a bunch, or just a few? We have so few drones I wouldn't think of raising a queen for fear she would not get mated enough. I'd just have to do it again Latter when she turned into a drone layer.
Few drones Just buy a queen.
Also keep in mind if they raise a queen from eggs, it is 14 days till she hatches, several days of exploreing here new home, the mateing flights. I always allow 25 to 30 days before looking to see eggs. Can your colony last that long?

 Al


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

Probably not  I'm so new at this that my not seeing a queen doesn't mean one isn't there, and I'd hate to bring in a new one if I have one. I also don't want to wind up with a laying worker. DH wonders if the queen had quit laying because of no food and if she'll start back when they build up some stores?

Also, am I doing them harm going into the hive so often?


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Do as you wish. Has been my experince they woun't release a new queen if the hive has one.
As long as you use caution and care you can pull frames to look at every day. 

How do your bees sound. compaire them to a knowen queen right colony.

 Al


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

O.O I'm not sure if I've ever noticed how they sounded before. They don't sound enough different that I heard them the last few days and said "That isn't how they sounded before!" but I am so new at this that I'm not sure it means anything.

I really do appreciate your patience, thanks so much!


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

When you come by tonight listen to my hives. I'm sure I have a queen in all three hives so if there is a specific sound mine will have it. They sound kind of like the really old kirby vacuums to me. Steady buzzing loud but not overly loud if that makes sense. Or at least, thats what mine sound like to me!


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Is hard to discribe the sounds but once you hear the difference you know if you have a queen or not in most cases.

queen right has a happy contented sound.

queen less has a loud crying sound, like a whale sort of, by all the bees in the hive . 


 Al


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

Missed your message Cheryl, sorry. I will today, though.

Think I may understand, more strident and frantic type sound. I know a swarm out in the open has a different buzz after I got to thinking about it. (They have a queen, but she's more exposed). I don't think these do.


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

Getting a queen is rather cheap insurance, in my humble opinion. I didn't know that they wouldn't release her if they have one. Good information. I learned something new today!


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