# How many tums are too many?



## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

Ebony is due on Sunday and she has been off her pellets for a couple of days. She's still alert and pretty active although she lies around a lot more now which I don't blame her. She also hasn't pooped for a couple of days and there is that smell that I recognize from last summer when my white doe died three weeks into her pregnancy which came with egg white looking poop. Ebony doesn't have that but the smell is there. 

Anyway, I gave her a few plantain leaves and some dandelion leaves which she gobbled down and a small apple branch which she hasn't bothered with. I also gave her a couple of tums. She wouldn't eat it out of my hand but when I put it in the feeder she ate them right up. I was just wondering if I could give her more or is too much calcium bad for her?

On a better note, Wanda gave birth yesterday to her first litter of six kits, one didn't make it through the night but the five others seem fine. One is very small but feisty and I'm hoping it can keep up with the others. Grow, Little One, Grow!!

I have a soft spot for the underdog....


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

I don't think I would give her more just now... most people give half to one tablet during labour. I don't like the sound of that smell... Can you give us more details of what happened with your white doe? I remember you losing her, but not the details of her symptoms or what you tried to help her.

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable about these problems will come along. If things get worse and you get to the point where all you want is for her to expel the contents of the uterus, *sage, mint or lavender* may be of help, either fresh or as an infusion. Go easy if you use lavender... from what I understand it is strong. The other two are probably safer for her and several sprigs can be fed. I've never done this to bring on labour - never needed to - but I have fed sage and mint to rabbits with no ill effects. I avoid them for pregnant rabbits because they say they can trigger miscarriages... which is why they may be helpful here as a last resort.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

Basically, my white doe just stopped eating and crouched in a back corner of her cage. She gave birth about a week prematurely to three not-quite-finished kits, pretty much while she sat there and continued sitting on them. She just got weaker and put out a LOT of clear runny poo until she died. I hadn't butchered any rabbits at that point so I didn't open her up to see if I could tell what was wrong. I gave her some tums dissolved in gatorade by syringe and and initially she would take it but eventually she wouldn't even swallow.

Ebony is up and about and meets me at the cage door for a rubdown. She ate a few more plantain and dandelion leaves and as of about half an hour ago, had some soft dark poops in the poo pan so that's good. I know some does go off their feed for a couple of days before birth so I'm hoping that's the main problem. Her day 28 isn't until Sunday but I might put a nestbox in with her tomorrow night when I get home from work. It will give her something to do and she can sit in it if she feels like it.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Fortunately, it doesn't sound like the same problem as with the white doe. I think putting the box in early may be a good idea. I'd continue with the greens, and if you have any raspberry leaves or willow, I'd add those. Raspberry leaves are supposed to help with "female problems" and willow bark has similar medicinal effects to aspirin and may make her more comfortable. The willow leaves are high in protein. I feed both to all my rabbits frequently with no problems.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

Thank you, Maggie. We have a willow tree at work so I'll try and bring a couple of branches home. As of this morning, there are some more poops in the pan, she has eaten some pellets and the water bottle is down so she's getting water. She also ate parts of the apple branch. I guess the greens started to get things going again so hopefully she'll be ok. 

Well, off to work and we'll see how she is tonight!


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

I've been busy at work and not able to get on here much but just a little update on this doe. I got up this morning and there was one dead kit on the wire and she was making bones like crazy. Not much I could do so I went to work and when I got home there was fur everywhere and a lovely nest built in the nestbox. Unfortunately it contained seven more dead babies and one live one. It just died a few minutes ago here by my computer. On the bright side the doe is looking more alert and I actually saw her drinking from the water bottle again.

Most of this litter didn't look quite "finished" so I assume they died a few days ago. The one that just died looked pretty normal but was just too weak.

I also have another dead baby from a nine day old litter lying on the kitchen table alongside the others waiting to go to the worm bin. I sure feel bummed looking at all these dead babies. I still have a four week old litter of seven, a nine day old litter of five and a four day old litter of two all doing well so that's positive anyway!

I guess that's the ups and downs of the rabbit world....


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

ohhh I'm sorry for your losses - glad Ebony is perking up though


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

Thank you, she seems to be a lot better, even gobbled down a couple of dandelion leaves I gave her.

I found two more dead ones, one outside Ebony's cage, not sure how it got there as it didn't look like it had ever been alive. Maybe she tossed it there. Also, my litter of five is now a litter of four, the littlest one died in the nestbox. Now I have twelve little ones waiting for burial in the worm bin. All the rest are doing well.


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

I am going to chime in here...altering ca levels in any pregnant animal is not a good idea...the issue is 2 fold...first- calcium and phosphorus needs to be balanced...you throw off that balance and you are asking for serious trouble (seizures, death) so by supplementing ca alone you are playing with fire. Toy dog breeders do this and have lots of issues with calcium related problems. Secondly, even if you supplement ca and phosphorus in the correct ratio you will cause the body stop drawing these from the body...sounds good right? Well it is until you stop supplementing...then you get the same symptoms above. Now a quarter tums during a hard labor is not going to hurt anythig, the body can use it then and it is a one time deal...and will strengthen contractions...but I would be warry to go beyong that. Raspberry leaves will strengthen contrations and should not be given until labor is apparent or wanted. Given during earlier pregnancy could cause premature labor and delivery. Willow bark (or twigs) - I would not give during pregnancy...think if it as asprin. It is a blood thinner and can cause too much bleeding.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Willowynd said:


> I am going to chime in here...altering ca levels in any pregnant animal is not a good idea...the issue is 2 fold...first- calcium and phosphorus needs to be balanced...you throw off that balance and you are asking for serious trouble (seizures, death) so by supplementing ca alone you are playing with fire. Toy dog breeders do this and have lots of issues with calcium related problems. Secondly, even if you supplement ca and phosphorus in the correct ratio you will cause the body stop drawing these from the body...sounds good right? Well it is until you stop supplementing...then you get the same symptoms above. Now a quarter tums during a hard labor is not going to hurt anythig, the body can use it then and it is a one time deal...and will strengthen contractions...but I would be warry to go beyong that. Raspberry leaves will strengthen contrations and should not be given until labor is apparent or wanted. Given during earlier pregnancy could cause premature labor and delivery. Willow bark (or twigs) - I would not give during pregnancy...think if it as asprin. It is a blood thinner and can cause too much bleeding.


Thanks for posting about this Willowynd. I am wondering if you can supply some sources where I can learn a little more about these issues. I've never seen any problems with willow, which I feed them often, but if there are issues I would like to know more about them. Come to think of it, I feed raspberry leaves regularly too.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Truckinguy said:


> Thank you, she seems to be a lot better, even gobbled down a couple of dandelion leaves I gave her.
> 
> I found two more dead ones, one outside Ebony's cage, not sure how it got there as it didn't look like it had ever been alive. Maybe she tossed it there. Also, my litter of five is now a litter of four, the littlest one died in the nestbox. Now I have twelve little ones waiting for burial in the worm bin. All the rest are doing well.


So sorry about all those dead kits, Truckinguy.  That's enough to bum out anyone! I'm just glad Ebony is okay!

Not to sound gruesome, but I believe there is a market for "pinkies" for feeding smaller snakes. I think some rabbit people freeze them in zip-lock bags and sell them. No idea how much they are worth, but it might off-set the financial loss a bit.


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## o&itw (Dec 19, 2008)

MaggieJ said:


> Fortunately, it doesn't sound like the same problem as with the white doe. I think putting the box in early may be a good idea. I'd continue with the greens, and if you have any raspberry leaves or willow, I'd add those. Raspberry leaves are supposed to help with "female problems" and willow bark has similar medicinal effects to aspirin and may make her more comfortable. The willow leaves are high in protein. I feed both to all my rabbits frequently with no problems.



Heh, that is where they (Dupont, Bayer, whomever) got the recipe.

The common (black) willow is _Salix *****_, in the family _Salicaceae_
asprins chemical name is acetyl salicyilic acid.
The American aboriganies used it for pain relief, and so according to Wikipedia did the Greeks

From Wikipedia:

"[edit] Medicine
The leaves and bark of the willow tree have been mentioned in ancient texts from Assyria, Sumer and Egypt[5] as a remedy for aches and fever,[6] and the Ancient Greek physician Hippocrates wrote about its medicinal properties in the 5th century BC. Native Americans across the American continent relied on it as a staple of their medical treatments. This is because they contain salicylic acid, the precursor to aspirin.

In 1763 its medicinal properties were observed by the Reverend Edward Stone in England. He notified the Royal Society who published his findings. The active extract of the bark, called salicin, was isolated to its crystalline form in 1828 by Henri Leroux, a French pharmacist, and Raffaele Piria, an Italian chemist, who then succeeded in separating out the acid in its pure state. Salicin is acidic when in a saturated solution in water (pH = 2.4), and is called salicylic acid for that reason.

In 1897 Felix Hoffmann created a synthetically altered version of salicin (in his case derived from the Spiraea plant), which caused less digestive upset than pure salicylic acid. The new drug, formally Acetylsalicylic acid, was named Aspirin by Hoffmann's employer Bayer AG. This gave rise to the hugely important class of drugs known as non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs)."


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Yes, I am aware of the pain-relieving and blood thinning qualities of willow bark and it's role in aboriginal and folk medicine long before Bayer invented Aspirin. It's interesting about the Greeks using it in ancient times... but not surprising. 

What I would like to research further is whether the concentrations in willow leaves and twigs could be harmful. From everything I have found so far, there is no indication that this is so and, in fact, it is widely fed to livestock as a major feed in many parts of the world.

I also want to further research red raspberry leaves. I've always understood that these are particularly useful in the last couple weeks of pregnancy and after kindling. If this is not true, then I want to know so I can adjust my feeding of greens accordingly. Hence my request to Willowynd for some of her sources to speed up this process.


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## o&itw (Dec 19, 2008)

Hope you have some success... we could all use the info. Would blackberry leaves be included, or is the soley a raspberry leaf thing?


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

o&itw said:


> Hope you have some success... we could all use the info. Would blackberry leaves be included, or is the soley a raspberry leaf thing?


That I don't know either... Willowynd?

You can be sure that whatever I find will be posted so we can all benefit.


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## vikav (Mar 30, 2009)

Truckinguy, that smell you were talking about, from the white doe that died, was it similar to a smell of acetone, like in a nail polish remover, or a fruity smell like in apples?


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

Hmmm, not like acetone, maybe fruity, actualy smelled more like diarrhea.

On a further note, Ebony is now paralyzed in her back legs. I poked her belly down to her legs and she jumped each time and I've seen her tail move. She can raise herself up high with her front legs and, at present, is pulling herself around the living room carpet doing some exploring. I put a metal lid of water in front of her and she licked most of it down and has eaten a couple of leaves I put in front of her. Her ears are up and alert and she is "scenting" things with her chin. She seems more or less normal other than her back legs dragging. I wonder if it has anything to do with the failed pregnancy.

I will probably keep her in the house and keep an eye on her. Hopefully she can recover or else I can replace her with one of the young does I have here.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Oh, no, Truckinguy... after all she (and you) have been through lately. 

Maybe you should try Danaus29's brandy and milk cure. Remember that TrinityOaks' Zil buck, Smokey, had paralysis and recovered nicely using this method. Below are the links to the threads about Smokey.

Original thread:
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=313508

The update:
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=314177

Sure hope Ebony recovers!


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

oh dear - poor you and poor ebony ... hoping rest and tlc cures whatever it is that ails her


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

Thanks for the links, Maggie. I will try the brandy/milk/water mixture.

Hmmm... don't seem to have any brandy. I have just about every other type of booze here (now, now, don't get the wrong impression here!). I wonder if cognac would do? 

On the bright side, Scarlett and Wanda's litters are FAT and Morgan's litter of seven is four weeks old and cute as buttons. Scarlett had three, two survived and they are like little balloons with legs! I guess they get all the milk to themselves!


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Get the wrong impression about you? Never! :buds:

Cognac is a kind of brandy... from a certain region of France named, you guessed it, _Cognac._ it should do the same job. Be sure to tell Ebony she's getting the *good stuff.*


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

Well, last night she took about 15ml of the cognac/milk/water mix but refused it this morning. She has gobbled up a few dandelion leaves and is feisty enough to fight me when I pick her up. I have her in a plastic tote, just big enough for her to turn around and low enough she can stick her head out. She's already tried to get out but can't drag her hind end over the side. There is bloody pee coming out of her and I don't think she got a chance to clean herself up properly after giving birth. When she's on the carpet she drags herself around really well. I fell asleep on the couch last night and when I woke up early this morning I found her in the kitchen under the table. Must have been hard to get traction with her front feet on the linoleum but the hind end probably slid along ok. I might have to give her a bath at some point.

I'll keep an eye on her but I'm working long days right now so if that becomes a problem I'll send her to camp and I have a young doe I can replace her with. She's a nice big rabbit, though, so I hope she can recover!


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

Sorry, been busy. Regarding the raspberry leaves and the calcium/phophorus issues, I am going off knowledge with dogs, research, what I learned in college (pre-vet) etc.

Here is a link explaining how calcium supplementation can be dangerous: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2109&aid=1505
and another in more detail : http://www.thepetcenter.com/gen/ec.html

Raspberry leaves: I am going off of knowlege from other breeders who have used it and had issues. Others have used it with no issues. There is a fetal monitoring service for dogs called Whelpwise and they advise against the use of it. Here is a chat in which Whelpwise founder was in on...she says the same at seminars:
PHChristy: Can I ask about problems with red raspberry leaf you have observed? 

WhelpWise: We keep outcome statistics on everyone who uses the service 

WhelpWise: we look at diet, supplements, c-section rate, fetal mortality rate 

WhelpWise: what we noticed very early on was a much higher fetal mortality rate for people who were using anything with red raspberry or any of the other uterine stimulants 

WhelpWise: this contrasted sharply with the mortality rate of people who were not using them, 33 percent fetal mortality with, 5-7 percent without 

WhelpWise: red raspberry is sold to make the uterus stronger 

WhelpWise: people think by "exercising" the uterus it will get stronger and you will have a faster, better whelping 

WhelpWise: what people don't realize is that the uterus is made out of smooth muscle, not skeletal muscle like your arms and legs 

WhelpWise: smooth muscle is what lines the inside of your blood vessels and bronchial tubes, you have no control over it 

ann1234: ? 

WhelpWise: by stimulating it with red raspberry you cannot make it stronger, but you can make it more irritable 

WhelpWise: irritable means that instead of having a nice relaxed smooth uterus for the placenta to burrow into and establish a good blood supply, it is constricted and hard, not allowing good placental attachment, thus causing premature placental separation and fetal death 



Willow: I am going off my knowledge that it is a blood thinner and asprin (which willow is a precursor to) not recommended for pregnant mammals- women, dogs, etc.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Willowynd said:


> Sorry, been busy. Regarding the raspberry leaves and the calcium/phophorus issues, I am going off knowledge with dogs, research, what I learned in college (pre-vet) etc.
> 
> Here is a link explaining how calcium supplementation can be dangerous: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2109&aid=1505
> and another in more detail : http://www.thepetcenter.com/gen/ec.html
> ...


Thanks, Willowynd, for your detailed reply. I'm going to look into this further and will eventually post on this topic in a separate thread. I really do appreciate your input on this subject. If there are problems with these two plants, we all will want to know about it.


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