# Our troops MISS thousands of rds per hit



## credee (Aug 17, 2013)

because they engage in "area fire", suppressive fire, etc. there's also a lot PANIC STRICKEN lack of fire-discipline, tho. The SAME thing occured with muskets, bolt actions and garands too. The design limitations of those guns and the weight/bulk of guns and ammo just precluded as much rapidfire as we see today, that's all. 

Remember who used bolt actions in WW2? Remember who WON?  Even tho the Japanese were heavily dug-in on the islands, and our guys had to charge over exposed beaches, etc, we still outkilled them by about 5 to 1. You just do NOT want to have nothing more than a clunker milsurp bolt-action as your "shtf-defensive rifle".

If such a rifle is all you can afford, you really are are better off with a .22lr autoloader (and being REALLY skilled and sneaky). Such budgetary restrictions mean that you just aren't going to shoot a centerfire enough to be much good with it. It's easier to be skilled enough (combat-type firing) with an autoloader (vs a bolt action), and barring today's silly (and temporary) problems with the availability and cost of .22lr ammo, you can practice 5x as much with the .22 for the same cost as the clunker bolt action ammo, and the .22 rifle is MUCH easier to master, too. you need to be able to fire from either shoulder, have luminous sights, etc, that are just a big pain in the rear to develope with a bolt action.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Explain Guadalcanal? The marines were still using the 1903 for that one.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

coolrunnin said:


> Explain Guadalcanal? The marines were still using the 1903 for that one.


Don't confuse him with facts. You know, like the fact that 70-80% of the japs we killed were killed by artillery, naval gun fire & air dropped ordinance.
While we're at it, lets not mention the bolt action armed Germans that averaged 4:1 kill ratios against everyone including us.


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

Shooting fast is fine ... but accurate is FIN-al. I'm happy with a bolt gun with a nice scope ...... Everythime I squeeze the trigger ...soemething dies .... and no misses .... no wasted ammo .... Aim small -- miss small.
Ohio Rusty ><>


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I was wondering how long it would take until credee was shown the door... 

Man.. this was one way off post...


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## Apocalypse Boy (May 4, 2012)

No reason you can't put a scope on a semi-auto rifle (or get really good with iron sights) and take accurate shots as well as firing rapidly up close or for suppressive fire. The Marines and Army infantrymen in A-Stan and Iraq made plenty of kills over a hundred yards away with their M16s AND they frequently cleared houses in CQC and laid down pretty thick suppressing fire to cover their maneuvering squadmates, all with the same weapon. A good bolt rifle with a scope has a very important role that it can fill very well, but a semi-auto is multirole and unless I'm in a squad/fireteam of people, I'd personally prefer the multirole.


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## bassmaster17327 (Apr 6, 2011)

simi-steading said:


> I was wondering how long it would take until credee was shown the door...
> 
> Man.. this was one way off post...


 
Banned for posting a lot? I hope he got a warning first


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

bassmaster17327 said:


> Banned for posting a lot? I hope he got a warning first



you will not get banned for posting a lot , you will get banned for being not nice 

everyone gets warned 

not everyone listens


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Apocalypse Boy said:


> No reason you can't put a scope on a semi-auto rifle (or get really good with iron sights) and take accurate shots as well as firing rapidly up close or for suppressive fire. The Marines and Army infantrymen in A-Stan and Iraq made plenty of kills over a hundred yards away with their M16s AND they frequently cleared houses in CQC and laid down pretty thick suppressing fire to cover their maneuvering squadmates, all with the same weapon. A good bolt rifle with a scope has a very important role that it can fill very well, but a semi-auto is multirole and unless I'm in a squad/fireteam of people, I'd personally prefer the multirole.


Had a Staff Seargent make an 800 yd kill shot with an M-4 topped with an ACOG. but that doesn't mean we couldn't have made good use of a bolt action with a good penetrating round.


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

Pops2 said:


> Had a Staff Seargent make an 800 yd kill shot with an M-4 topped with an ACOG. but that doesn't mean we couldn't have made good use of a bolt action with a good penetrating round.


Just out of curiosity, was it on his first shot at the target or did he walk rounds in and then hit the target on a subsequent shot?

TRellis


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## bassmaster17327 (Apr 6, 2011)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> you will not get banned for posting a lot , you will get banned for being not nice
> 
> everyone gets warned
> 
> not everyone listens


 
Good to know, I was not following his posts so did not realize he was not playing nicely


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Yeah.. seems like he kinda kept his mouth like he liked to keep all his assault bolt action 22's at times... 
Overloaded..


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

TRellis said:


> Just out of curiosity, was it on his first shot at the target or did he walk rounds in and then hit the target on a subsequent shot?
> 
> TRellis


First shot. In all fairness, like myself he was a multiple award expert and a marksmanship instructor. So he is a much better than average shooter. AND we had a lazer range finder to range the shot first.


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

Pops2 said:


> First shot. In all fairness, like myself he was a multiple award expert and a marksmanship instructor. So he is a much better than average shooter. AND we had a lazer range finder to range the shot first.


Then that was a real nice shot. It wasn't a cold bore shot to boot was it? And I assume he was/is a Marine?

TRellis


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

TRellis said:


> Then that was a real nice shot. It wasn't a cold bore shot to boot was it? And I assume he was/is a Marine?
> 
> TRellis



There are some in the army that CAN shoot and would also embarrass a lot of Marines.

I have shot beside a lot of them. We have also used and trained with M4 carbines with both the ACOG and irons (mind you this is a 14.5" barrel too) out to 600 meters. With the M14, we worked all the way to 1100 meters with iron sights. No benefit of laser finders. just our skill to range and dial the dope.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

TRellis said:


> Then that was a real nice shot. It wasn't a cold bore shot to boot was it? And I assume he was/is a Marine?
> 
> TRellis


Yes it was. No it wasn't. And yes he is.


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

farmerj said:


> There are some in the army that CAN shoot and would also embarrass a lot of Marines.
> 
> I have shot beside a lot of them. We have also used and trained with M4 carbines with both the ACOG and irons (mind you this is a 14.5" barrel too) out to 600 meters. With the M14, we worked all the way to 1100 meters with iron sights. No benefit of laser finders. just our skill to range and dial the dope.


Hey, I was in the Army too. The only reason that I assumed that he was a marine was because they regularly qualify at 500 yards and the furthest the Army did , when I was in, was 300 yards and most of those that I was shooting with were griping about 300 yds.

I spent a little time up in Quantico and one day this Marine company shows up to qualify. They spent two or three days sitting on a little hill aiming at a billboard sized piece of plywood with silhouettes painted on it.

They would aim at a target, get a good sight picture and pull the trigger. Then pull the charging handle back and go through the whole process again and again and again. For two to three days!!! At the time I thought that they were crazy. But, come the fourth and fifth days of them being on the range, they were shooting out to 500 yds and hitting bulls. I was quite impressed.

I learned my long range with the M40, but then used the M21 system when I got back to Army-land. I preferred the M40. And laser range finders were not used for the most part either. Had to learn how to mil targets and range guess-timation, er... range estimation. 

TRellis


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

dry firing,,,the most valuable time you can spend on a rifle without sending bullets.


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

ace admirer said:


> dry firing,,,the most valuable time you can spend on a rifle without sending bullets.


Most certainly!!! But it wasn't done very much when I was in the Army. At least not nearly as much as the Marines did it. IIRC, the Marines called it "snapping in."

TRellis


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## ninny (Dec 12, 2005)

This Marine could shoot. GySgt. Carlos Hathcock

http://oldbluejacket.com/CarlosHathcock.htm

.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

TRellis said:


> Most certainly!!! But it wasn't done very much when I was in the Army. At least not nearly as much as the Marines did it. IIRC, the Marines called it "snapping in."
> 
> TRellis


"snapping in" now is the tern used by the competitive teams to mean getting into full gear, mat and dry firing...same thing only more "stuff"


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

ninny said:


> This Marine could shoot. GySgt. Carlos Hathcock
> 
> http://oldbluejacket.com/CarlosHathcock.htm
> 
> .


Yes, Yes and others.. and remember, rifles, bullets and other "stuff" has come a LONG ways since those days.....he basically used a tuned light weight hunting rifle.

his was the day of the M16/AR shooting about 250 yards, now the AR will shoot 1000 yards. 

beside being a good shot (thats about 1/4 of being a war time sniper) he had GUTS. He laid it all on the line. 

The 1000 yard range at Lejune is dedicated to him


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

TRellis said:


> Most certainly!!! But it wasn't done very much when I was in the Army. At least not nearly as much as the Marines did it. IIRC, the Marines called it "snapping in."
> 
> TRellis


We still call it snapping in.


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## k9 (Feb 6, 2008)

Its about the shooter, a rifleman with a good bolt gun is scary dangerous to the enemy, a coward with an automatic rifle, not so much. Guns and gadgets do not make real Warriors.


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