# you can buy an AR15 or 1911 online, nobody will know.



## ergo

but it's expensive. What you do is buy what's called an "80% finished receiver", and a parts kit that is all you need to have a functional gun. You have to buy a jig and some tools with which to finish the receiver, and know how to do so. The polymer AR lower receivers are quite easy to finish, with just a drill press. But the metal ones, you need an $80 router and about $200 worth of jig for that router. The alloy 1911 frames are easily finished, but the jig runs about $200. The STEEL 1911 frames are a nightmare to finish, unless you have a milling machine and really know how to use it. I've done so, with just a Dremel- copy from Harbor freight tools, but if you dont REALLY know hand-work and the 1911, you'll almost certainly mess up the job.


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## ergo

If you pay the extra money for "next day" delivery by UPS or Fed Ex, and tell them to require a signature, you can be standing in front of any building you choose, the next day, sign that name and the package is yours. Drivers aint cops, and dont ask for ID. You can get "gift" debit cards at Wally's, or pay with a postal MO. It is still legal to use any name you wish in the USA, as long as no crime is thereby committed, and doing the above is not a crime, as long as you are not a 'prohibited person" (ie, known nutjob or felon)


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## Texaspredatorhu

Glock frames too. You also cannot finish one for someone unless you are licensed to manufacture and therefore must serialize it and do a transfer. You have to build it and keep it forever. You can sell it if you get a serial number though.


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## ergo

you are VERY wrong. You do not need a license or a serial number, as long as you dont sell or trade the frame. you can still sell or trade the other parts, of course.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

finishing one for someone else is Illegal manufacturing of a firearm , you can only manufacture for yourself not for others


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## ergo

who said anything about finishing it for anyone else? Not me. You claimed that a license was necessary, implying that it was so, even for making your own, which is what my OP was about.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

the closest thing to that is some places have a cnc mill set up to cut 80% lowers and you can rent time on their machine and they may have a nearly full proof jig that you place the lower in and secure and you press the button to run the cnc program. but then you have manufactured on rental machinery and not some one for you.

I know people do finish 80% lowers for other people but that does not make it legal unless they have a license to manufacture firearms. generally they only do this for people they trust.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

ergo said:


> who said anything about finishing it for anyone else? Not me. You claimed that a license was necessary, implying that it was so, even for making your own, which is what my OP was about.


go back an fully read Texaspreditorhuners post he did not say you could not build one for you without a license , he said you can not finish them for someone else without a license and also specified that you could build one for yourself. he covered both legal options clearly , go read it.


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## ergo

If you'd do google and youtube searches, you'd find that such is not the case. There's a r jig for a router that works just fine for alloy AR lowers and the alloy 1911 frames are child's play. again, i said NOTHING about finishing them for anyone else. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. What have you got against people having guns that Big Brother doesn't know about, hmm?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

ergo said:


> If you'd do google and youtube searches, *you'd find that such is not the case*. There's a r jig for a router that works just fine for alloy AR lowers and the alloy 1911 frames are child's play. again, i said NOTHING about finishing them for anyone else. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. What have you got against people having guns that Big Brother doesn't know about, hmm?


what such is not the case ?


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## ergo

the requirement for having a mill is not the case. You can do just fine with a router, a vise and a kit for same.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Ergo , I have nothing against people manufacturing firearms for personal use , what we seek to clarify is that , while manufacturing for your own personal use is legal , you may not manufacture for others , we seek only to clarify for the others who might be reading this and are not trying to put words in your mouth.

I am quite familiar with the router jig for finishing 80% AR lowers


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## ergo

what is you guy's problem with the 80% trick, eh? Have you got AR's to sell or something? why bring up the making of same for anyone else? It has nothing to do the original post.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

ergo said:


> the requirement for having a mill is not the case. You can do just fine with a router, a vise and a kit for same.



I did not say you had to have a mill 

actually the 80% glock lowers ca be done with a hand drill and the pour your own AR lowers need no tooling at all


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

ergo said:


> what is you guy's problem with the 80% trick, eh? Have you got AR's to sell or something?


Ergo it seems you are trying to start something that isn't , when did we ever say we had a problem with 80% lowers actually we have given other 80% options so a problem we don't have 

we seek only to make sure since this is saved for close to all time that we are clear about what you may and may not do under current law , as to not be misleading.

we are not out to get you or argue with you if your looking for an argument go some place else , if you wish to contribute useful content , contribute away.


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## Texaspredatorhu

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Glock frames too. *You also cannot finish one for someone unless you are licensed to manufacture and therefore must serialize it and do a transfer.* You have to build it and keep it forever. You can sell it if you get a serial number though.


Read it again. You CANNOT build it for someone else. You CANNOT sell it without a serial number unless you serialize it. You can keep it for PERSONAL use WITHOUT a serial number.


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## Jolly

Why do I have a sneaking suspicion if the FBI wants to trace a nonserilaized gun at a crime scene, they could?


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## Cabin Fever

ergo said:


> ....What have you got against people having guns that Big Brother doesn't know about, hmm?


How does "Big Brother" know about any of the firearms I have?


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## Texaspredatorhu

Jolly said:


> Why do I have a sneaking suspicion if the FBI wants to trace a nonserilaized gun at a crime scene, they could?


ATF says it is extremely difficult to do so.


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## Texaspredatorhu

ergo said:


> If you'd do google and youtube searches, you'd find that such is not the case. There's a r jig for a router that works just fine for alloy AR lowers and the alloy 1911 frames are child's play. again, i said NOTHING about finishing them for anyone else. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. What have you got against people having guns that Big Brother doesn't know about, hmm?


Never put words in your mouth, I added something to it by saying ALSO first. I have nothing against 80% guns. I actually use them frequently as I have my licensing and serialize them when sold after doing a background check. So if you would like to continue on with people putting words in your mouth, I suggest you learn how to read, understand, and COMPREHEND before getting defensive. Have a blessed day.


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## Lookin4GoodLife

Texaspredatorhu said:


> Glock frames too. You also cannot finish one for someone unless you are licensed to manufacture and therefore must serialize it and do a transfer. You have to build it and keep it forever. You can sell it if you get a serial number though.





ergo said:


> you are VERY wrong. You do not need a license or a serial number, as long as you dont sell or trade the frame. you can still sell or trade the other parts, of course.





ergo said:


> who said anything about finishing it for anyone else? Not me. You claimed that a license was necessary, implying that it was so, even for making your own, which is what my OP was about.





ergo said:


> again, i said NOTHING about finishing them for anyone else. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.


Texaspredatorhu said you could not finish one for someone else unless you were a licensed manufacturer and you said he was "VERY wrong" and then said "as long as you don't sell or trade the frame"..... which is what he said. So you both were in agreement, but you're becoming offended and pretending that people are ganging up on you when they are simply trying to clarify what the government requires. Yeah, you're going to do very well here.


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## farmrbrown

Jolly said:


> Why do I have a sneaking suspicion if the FBI wants to trace a nonserilaized gun at a crime scene, they could?


That would be a neat trick.
I'll believe it when I see it.


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## Bearfootfarm

> Jolly said: ↑
> Why do I have a sneaking suspicion if the FBI wants to trace a nonserilaized gun at a crime scene, they could?


Is this a trick question?
The only way a specific firearm can be "traced" is through the serial numbers and the paper trial. 

An 80% receiver has neither of those which can be tied to a particular weapon.


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## hunter63

I don' no nutin' bout no 80% receivers.....my drill press and it's for..... 'ahhhh....."farm parts"?...Yeah, that's it....farm parts....
That's my story and I sticking to it


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## Jolly

I've got a couple of friends with the Marshals. I think I'll bounce this one off of them and see what they say...


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## Bearfootfarm

Jolly said:


> I've got a couple of friends with the Marshals. I think I'll bounce this one off of them and see what they say...


They will tell you what you've already heard.


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## Texaspredatorhu

Jolly said:


> I've got a couple of friends with the Marshals. I think I'll bounce this one off of them and see what they say...


The ATF acknowledges them and that there is legally nothing anyone can do to stop it. What do you need to check on with marshals?


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## hunter63

The OP was just a baiting post...as was several others..... Y'all bit.......and starting to stir the crap......
Well done!

They have a name for posts like that.

Pssssst...I heard if you remove that tag off furniture that says
" Do not Remove Under Penalty of Law"....
You'll have the Black Helo's show up.....to confiscate your sofa....


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## Jolly

Texaspredatorhu said:


> The ATF acknowledges them and that there is legally nothing anyone can do to stop it. What do you need to check on with marshals?


I've been out of the biz too long and I don't know the local batmen anymore. I do know a couple of Marshals, one's a good friend and the other is family. I figure they will know, and confirm what y'all are saying.

I know some of the ways they can trace a regular firearm. It just struck me as odd that there is no way to trace a homemade gun that uses some manufactured parts.


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## Bearfootfarm

Jolly said:


> I've been out of the biz too long and I don't know the local batmen anymore. I do know a couple of Marshals, one's a good friend and the other is family. I figure they will know, and confirm what y'all are saying.


There's no need for "confirmation".
Just apply some simple logic.
You can't "trace" something without identifying marks and verification records.



Jolly said:


> It just struck me as odd that there is no *way to trace* a homemade gun that uses some manufactured parts.


Tell us *how* it would be traced to a specific firearm and owner.


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## GTX63

Yes, as Hunter63 already said, it is a troll post. To state that you can stand out in front of any business and use means to hide your identity to purchase parts for firearms....smh. Have any other agendas your looking to push?
I can build a bomb if I wanted, or put a cow catcher on my truck and head downtown if I wanted or poison my neighbor's well and the "gubmint" wouldn't ever know. Not sure they can make any more laws to stop someone from doing what they want if they want.


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## hunter63

Well, even post like this do have merit in bringing up discussion on many subject...so nit all bad.
Lets us not get carried away on responses.....That was the original goal of the OP.

BTW......what happend to "ergo"...?
Hasn't been around.


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## Texaspredatorhu

Jolly said:


> I've been out of the biz too long and I don't know the local batmen anymore. I do know a couple of Marshals, one's a good friend and the other is family. I figure they will know, and confirm what y'all are saying.
> 
> I know some of the ways they can trace a regular firearm. It just struck me as odd that there is no way to trace a homemade gun that uses some manufactured parts.


Go to FAQs on the ATF website. 80%arms also listed the ATF regulations on them.


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## TraderBob

Don't forget the 80% Ruger 10/22's.

AR-15 poly and aluminum
AK's from a flat, whatever flavor you desire.
Glock style 17 and 23 from 80%.
1911's from 80%
The choices are almost limitless, and it isn't just for keeping them off the books, it's also the joy in completing one.
I encourage everyone to make one or all of them


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## Jolly

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's no need for "confirmation".
> Just apply some simple logic.
> You can't "trace" something without identifying marks and verification records.
> 
> 
> Tell us *how* it would be traced to a specific firearm and owner.


I don't know, let us brainstorm a bit..

1. Metallurgy. Metal or plastic has to come from somewhere and many alloys or plastics have distinct molecular signatures. Maybe we look at what a part is made of, look at where that material originated and who shipped what to who, in a certain period of time.

2. Parts. Again, certain parts may have manufacturer's names or may be distinct enough to trace it back to a manufacturer. Match up geography and parts orders, then narrow down the list.

3. Expertise. Ain't everybody can build a firearm. Some build are above board, some are clandestine and criminal. Maybe we match up the ghost gun against known firearm experts or criminal enterprises in the area.

Now, this assumes that the gun has not been used in a crime. In the event that it has and the weapon has been recovered at the scene, etc., maybe police can follow the chain through information provided by the perp, his accomplices or friends.

I don't know if any of the above will work and as I said I'll ask to find out when I get a chance.

Always nice to talk to a polite person...


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## hunter63

Bad guys don't build guns....Too lazy....they buy or steal them.


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## Bearfootfarm

Jolly said:


> I don't know if any of the above will work


No, they won't because there are no records kept of such things.
None of the things you listed could be tied to a single individual.
That's why most guns have serial numbers and paper trail.



Jolly said:


> Now, this assumes that the gun has not been used in a crime. In the event that it has and the weapon has been recovered at the scene, etc., maybe police can follow the chain through information provided by the perp, his accomplices or friends.


That's not really "tracing", and if there's been no crime there's no reason for it to be done at all. That's where the logic comes in.
Your "Marshal" buddies don't do any tracing. They aren't authorized.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/national-tracing-center
*



National Tracing Center

Click to expand...

*


> *What is the ATF National Tracing Center?*
> *ATF’s National Tracing Center (NTC) is the only organization authorized* to trace U.S. and foreign manufactured firearms for international, Federal, State, and local law enforcement agencies. Its purpose is to provide investigative leads in the fight against violent crime and terrorism and to enhance public safety.
> 
> Firearms trace requests may be submitted to any law enforcement agency in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. Trace request forms (ATF F 3312.1, National Tracing Center Trace Request) are available online or by contacting the ATF National Tracing Center at 1-800-788-7133.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Tracing_Center


Jolly said:


> Always nice to talk to a polite person...


Let's just stick to the actual topic instead of trying to derail things by making it personal.


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## Jolly

Then stick to the topic and talk to other people the way real people talk to each other. Don't come in this section of the forum with your usual, pedantic posting style and ruin it for everybody.


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## Bearfootfarm

Jolly said:


> Then stick to the topic and talk to other people the way real people talk to each other. Don't come in this section of the forum with your usual, pedantic posting style and ruin it for everybody.


You seem to be confused.
The topic is firearms that can't be traced.

If you just want to play silly mind games, you can play by yourself.


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## Jolly

Go back and read what I have written in this thread. I see no confusion. I do see a statement that says I'll try to verify some of what has been stated with an outside authority.

Unless you happen to be a federal law enforcement officer.


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## Texaspredatorhu

Jolly said:


> Go back and read what I have written in this thread. I see no confusion. I do see a statement that says I'll try to verify some of what has been stated with an outside authority.
> 
> Unless you happen to be a federal law enforcement officer.


https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-“80”-or-“unfinished”-receivers-illegal

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-atf-doing-regards-people-making-their-own-firearms

Read these 2 and you will understand.


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## Texaspredatorhu

SD Tactical got their "solvent tube" business shut down because they advertised turning them into suppressors. Preppers discount doesn't not and "forbids" it. It's all in wording with suppressors. 80% lowers is very cut and dry. Buy one and finish it to keep, should you choose to sell you just have to apply a serial number in accordance with the regulation. It's not a difficult concept to understand.


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## Bearfootfarm

Jolly said:


> I see no confusion.


The confusion is you keep talking about me instead of the actual topic.

You've seen the ATF statement that they are the only "outside authority" authorized perform a "trace" and only as part of an active criminal investigation. 

To do the trace, they first have to have the serial number and the name of the manufacturer.
A home-built gun has neither of those things. 

Even if they have that data, they can only trace it to the last *retail *sale in most states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Tracing_Center



Jolly said:


> Unless you happen to be a federal law enforcement officer.


One doesn't have to be a LEO to use a little common sense, and once again, I'm not the topic.
All your theories might work in an episode of NCIS, but that's not how it's done in the real world.


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## Dutch 106

The cast your own AR lowers. calling them tool less is slightly confusing, you need tools to properly assemble the mold takes a wrench getting it apart to remove the part also takes tools then removing the flashing of course. Not a machine shop of course. And hand tools. I don't understand all the snark that got pulled here, I've been suckered by trolls myself, but still guys!
Dutch


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## muleskinner2

If you live in a state that does not require a background check for person to person sales. Just buy a gun out of the sunday paper pay cash and take it home. No paper trail no registration, no assembly required and it is legal.

Muleskinner,


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## ergo

Jolly said:


> Why do I have a sneaking suspicion if the FBI wants to trace a nonserilaized gun at a crime scene, they could?


you think that cause you're scared of your own shadow and "think" that the feds are omnipotent. It took them 18 years and 50 million dollars to find an idiot who was hiding in one place all that time. If the guy had not been stupid enough to send them a "manifesto and had his brother had not snitched him out, he'd still be sending mail-bombs.


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## shawnlee

Trace as in sit on the duff and run some number thru a computer,,...no

Figure out who`s it is given a small amount of info, certainly, prove as in a court of law or prove as they know.....


You can dream all you want that using a prepaid is untraceable, it is, a long with all the other purchases and any other trace evidence which one would have to be super crazy meticulous to not leave behind now.


Besides using the hush hush live recorded satellite feeds that could see dimples on a golf ball in the 70`s...…


Good luck with the no one knows who I am fantasy,.....its more like no one cares what you are doing since its legal, its only James Bond drama in your mind...….I will leave you to your work Q.


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## ergo

so send them a money order, or use bitcoin, if you're so paranoid. Thousands of people commit horrible crimes every day, in the US dude. You must be one of those UK pukes. You can look from space all you want, all that matters is boots on the ground. They haven't got and never will have even 1% of the manpower needed to seriously pursue even the most serious of offenders. Some of the pursued would go on the offensive, too. It would be a piece of cake to stop such pursuit. It's really easy to make the cops too busy doing other things to pursue anyone.


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## Bearfootfarm

ergo said:


> Some of the pursued would go on the offensive, too.


Roll out the Assault Wheelbarrows and loose the Chihuahuas of War!!


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## shawnlee




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## ergo

that's always you pussie's answer, isn't it.?


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## Fishindude

In my state you simply buy the complete firearm off of an individual and pay cash and there is no paper trail, no harm, no foul and legal.


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## Bearfootfarm

ergo said:


> that's always you *pussie's* answer, isn't it.?


Name calling makes you look even more juvenile then normal.
Misspelling it makes you look ignorant as well.


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## ergo

the seller has seen your face, which is contrary to what the entire 80% is actually about.


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## shawnlee




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## ergo

The $2000 one has in a properly set up AR is not kid stuff. Nor is the $10,000 it costs to get an asian wife half your age, so she can get stuff for you.


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## Clem




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## shawnlee

ergo said:


> The $2000 one has in a properly set up AR is not kid stuff. Nor is the $10,000 it costs to get an asian wife half your age, so she can get stuff for you.


 So you like the cheap stuff is what you are saying...…..


My 800 buck AR does pretty good at 1000 yards on a good day.....no need to spend crazy money unless you have a specific real world need....a 100 buck mosin nagant is plenty effective for normal use.


Unless you are one of these people.....


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## GTX63

Looks like the Mall Ninja 6940 with a 2/1 twist, laser mag and optical trigger.


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## big rockpile

Why AR when you can do the same much cheaper with a normal Wood Stock Rifle?

big rockpile


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## GTX63

My youngest son bagged his first squirrel from 40 yards with a Colt AR15 in 22LR.
I'm not big on the elevated sights so when I .22 I usually grab one of our 10/22 Rugers.


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