# Measles Outbreak



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I have trouble believing the media that the cause of measles outbreaks is the anti-vaccine movement. If measles was eradicated in US, why would there be any outbreaks? How is the measles virus being transported into these communities?



> MEXICO CITY (AP) - Authorities in the northern Mexico border state of Tamaulipas say they have detained 289 Central American migrants, including some *children with measles and other illnesses*. Fox 5


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> I have trouble believing the media that the cause of measles outbreaks is the anti-vaccine movement. If measles was eradicated in US, why would there be any outbreaks? How is the measles virus being transported into these communities?


Possible, but just as possible that it is tourists visiting Disneyland. It is those here that are not vaccinated that then get it and spread it.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

It may start by the non vaccinated from other countries, that doesn't mean they're illegal, it can be tourists as well. The measle virus is introduced into the community, those that are not vaccinated contract the virus and it spreads to other non vaccinated people and people who's titers are too low to mount a defense.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

So the US does not require proof of measles vaccination to get a visa?

Yes it does!

*



Important Notice to Immigrant Visa Applicants Concerning Vaccination Requirements

Click to expand...

*


> United States immigration law requires immigrant visa applicants to obtain certain vaccinations (listed below) prior to the issuance of an immigrant visa. Panel physicians who conduct medical examinations of immigrant visa applicants are required to verify that immigrant visa applicants have met the vaccination requirements, or that it is medically inappropriate for the visa applicant to receive one or more of the listed vaccinations:
> 
> 
> Hepatitis A
> ...


 https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/immigrate/vaccinations.html


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Those are immigrant Visas. You do not need immunizations for tourist visas.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/destinations/traveler/none/united-states


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> So the US does not require proof of measles vaccination to get a visa?
> 
> Yes it does!
> 
> https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/immigrate/vaccinations.html


I did know that, but I indicated tourists. Proof of vaccination is not required for tourists. "There are no vaccination requirements for visitors to the United States. For information on US-based infectious disease outbreaks currently being reported by CDC, please see the CDC Current Outbreak List." from: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/destinations/traveler/none/united-states


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

Every year, unvaccinated travelers (Americans or foreign visitors) get measles while they are in other countries and bring it into the United States. Typically 2 out of 3 of these unvaccinated travelers are Americans. They can spread measles to other people who are not protected against measles, which sometimes leads to outbreaks. This can occur in communities with unvaccinated people.

Most people in the United States are protected against measles through vaccination. So measles cases in the U.S. are uncommon compared to the number of cases before a vaccine was available. Since 2000, when public health officials declared measles eliminated from the U.S., the annual number of people reported to have measles ranged from a low of 37 people in 2004 to a high of 667 people in 2014.

https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/faqs.html


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

So US Public Health Service is not doing their job.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> So US Public Health Service is not doing their job.


What do you think they are not doing?


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

If my memory is to be trusted the first of the measles outbreak in Vancouver BC came back from an unvaccinated vacationer returning from Vietnam.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

The spread of measles in the Detroit area came from a guy that visited Israel. He returned without knowing he had gotten it.

I think people underestimate how much people move around. I know numerous Muslims in Detroit that fly back and forth to the Middle East nearly monthly.
A few years ago, a group of Amish from Mt. Hope, Ohio did missionary work in the Philippians and brought back measles. No one was vaccinated. But they self quarantined and it didn't spread far.

I attended a pest control training, put on by a Pest Control Company. They had a dog trained to detect the smell of bed bugs. The public perception is that they are in Hotels. He said a far bigger problem in government subsidized housing. In the US we have millions of low income families that travel back and forth to third world countries, bringing the bed bugs with them in their packed clothes. What exists anywhere in the world can show up in your neighborhood.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> How is the measles virus being transported into these communities?


It's brought in from outside the country and spreads to those who haven't been vaccinated or who have weakened immune systems.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

Back in the old days when we traveled overseas, my shot record was with my passport. If I wasn't current, I could be kept out of a country. We let every body and anybody come here regardless of their health.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> So US Public Health Service is not doing their job.


Congress isn't doing their job.
They are too busy trying to find dirt on Trump to worry about people dying from diseases that could be prevented by changing the law.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

There is no law here that requires a measle vaccination of the citizens. Why would that be expected of visitors?


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## DisasterCupcake (Jan 3, 2015)

painterswife said:


> There is no law here that requires a measle vaccination of the citizens. Why would that be expected of visitors?


Probably because other countries are far less hygienic than the US
The unvaccinated in the US are unfairly vilified- MMR vaccination rates have not declined in the last 20 years. It may also be that the vaccine failure rate for the MMR is pretty high. Even with -however many doses are now recommended?- the diminishing return of each dose prevents a robust immune response to wild measles at 5+ years after vaccination.
It might also be that measles virus is endemic. Even in fully vaccinated populations, 3 to 5 year measles epidemics sweep through. This is known, and actually accounted for, but media likes to use any little panic button they can find these days.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

DisasterCupcake said:


> Probably because other countries are far less hygienic than the US
> The unvaccinated in the US are unfairly vilified- MMR vaccination rates have not declined in the last 20 years. It may also be that the vaccine failure rate for the MMR is pretty high. Even with -however many doses are now recommended?- the diminishing return of each dose prevents a robust immune response to wild measles at 5+ years after vaccination.
> It might also be that measles virus is endemic. Even in fully vaccinated populations, 3 to 5 year measles epidemics sweep through. This is known, and actually accounted for, but media likes to use any little panic button they can find these days.


Measles is no longer endemic in the US according to the CDC. The less hygienic thing I don't really agree with either. You get measles from contact with infectious droplets or it being airborne. It dies within about two hours so constant cleaning helps no one when the person who has it breathes on you.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> So US Public Health Service is not doing their job.


Haha. I see this over and over. Everyone wants the government out of their way. Leave us alone. Then, when something pops up, as it tends to do, they want it fixed yesterday.

Michigan has lots of licensed and inspected Animal Shelters. Some go to other states to "rescue" dogs and haul back to Michigan. But vaccines and health certificates are too costly for these do-gooders. So the government backs off and Michigan ends up with Brucellosis cases. Dogs were imported to the US from Korea, saved from becoming dinner, but they brought diseases.

All the public health agencies fight against those that want more freedom. Every Health Agency in the nation knows that raw milk is a dangerous practice. But public pushes for freedom to market uninspected milk. Even where it is illegal to sell raw milk, most states allow the loophole of "herd share" that everyone knows is really the illegal sale of raw milk.

But when a bunch of people get sick, it is the Health Department running tests, taking samples and advising the public.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> There is no law here that requires a measle vaccination of the citizens. Why would that be expected of visitors?


If it is required to get a visa, why shouldn't it be required for anyone entering the US?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

haypoint said:


> Haha. I see this over and over. Everyone wants the government out of their way. Leave us alone. Then, when something pops up, as it tends to do, they want it fixed yesterday.


The federal government has few Constitutionally defined functions. I would say that making sure people coming into the US do not have an infectious disease is one of them. This is not a function that can be accomplished by the individual states or the people.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

MoonRiver said:


> If it is required to get a visa, why shouldn't it be required for anyone entering the US?


That's a good question to ask your local congressman or CDC representative. As IP posted, vaccines are not required for temporary visitors.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Danaus29 said:


> That's a good question to ask your local congressman or CDC representative. As IP posted, vaccines are not required for temporary visitors.


The point I tried to make is that government always blames the people when it is actually the government's responsibility to make sure infectious diseases are not brought into the US. If the federal government did its job, we wouldn't need to have people in US forcibly made to get the measles vaccination.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> The point I tried to make is that government always blames the people when it is actually the government's responsibility to make sure infectious diseases are not brought into the US. If the federal government did its job, we wouldn't need to have people in US forcibly made to get the measles vaccination.


I am curious on what kind of system you would expect to enforce this? Do we test every person coming in? How can you expect to require other citizens to do something that we don't expect or mandate of those here? That is like telling another country to reduce air pollution but crank it up here.


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## DisasterCupcake (Jan 3, 2015)

painterswife said:


> Measles is no longer endemic in the US according to the CDC.


That's true. But the CDC also qualified the word endemic with their own made up definition (constantly present).
The actual definition of endemic means "regularly found among particular people or in a certain area."
It's pretty clear that measles is found within the regularity of 3 to 5 years even in 100% vaccinated populations.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

DisasterCupcake said:


> That's true. But the CDC also qualified the word endemic with their own made up definition (constantly present).
> The actual definition of endemic means "regularly found among particular people or in a certain area."
> It's pretty clear that measles is found within the regularity of 3 to 5 years even in 100% vaccinated populations.


[/QUOTE]

Regular in my opinion is not 372 cases ( 2018 number of people reported in the US that had measles) of 327 million people. Add to that they believe that the origin of the majority of those were caused by an infection brought into the country not being passed around by measles that was already here.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"adjective
If a disease or illness is endemic in a place, it is frequently found among the people who live there."

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/endemic


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> There is no law here that requires a measle vaccination of the citizens.


Then maybe there should be.



MoonRiver said:


> If it is required to get a visa, why shouldn't it be required for anyone entering the US?


That's too logical for the Govt.
Many places actually do require vaccinations, but they also offer "exemptions" that people tend to abuse.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> I am curious on what kind of system you would expect to enforce this? Do we test every person coming in? How can you expect to require other citizens to do something that we don't expect or mandate of those here? That is like telling another country to reduce air pollution but crank it up here.


As I posted earlier, it is already required to get a visa.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

An FYI if you're anywhere around Gen-X age:

https://www.newschannel5.com/news/n...en-should-get-health-measles-immunity-checked

People born between 1963-1989 should get their measles immunity checked

One dose is not enough, CDC recommends a second.

"Children and adults were only vaccinated for measles, mumps and rubella with one dose," said Paula Mandel, deputy director of the Pima County Health Dept. "As we went on we learned that sometimes one dose is not enough to give us full immunity."

Mandel recommends adults of Generation X check with their medical provider and schedule a second dose of vaccinations.

"If you want to see what your immunity is to measles you can have a blood test drawn. It checks to see how strong the immunity is in the body," she said."


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> I am curious on what kind of system you would expect to enforce this? Do we test every person coming in?


They can be required to show proof, just like they have to show their ID's


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> As I posted earlier, it is already required to get a visa.


An immigration visa. Very different from process requiring a full medical exam and police background check, fingerprinting and more. Takes months.

You still have nor answered my question on how you expect us to require something of others we don't require of ourselves for a tourist visa?


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

I don't know about a visa, but I didn't have to get ANY shots for my passport.

Mon


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

painterswife said:


> I am curious on what kind of system you would expect to enforce this? Do we test every person coming in? How can you expect to require other citizens to do something that we don't expect or mandate of those here? That is like telling another country to reduce air pollution but crank it up here.


They'd have to pull a titer (for each disease vaccinated against) on every person coming into the country to be certain they were immunized. There would be little to no tourism.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> An immigration visa. Very different from process requiring a full medical exam and police background check, fingerprinting and more. Takes months.


It doesn't take months to get proof of vaccinations.



Irish Pixie said:


> They'd have to pull a titer (for each disease vaccinated against) on every person coming into the country to be certain they were immunized. There would be little to no tourism.


There would be just as much tourism if the people really wanted to come.
People do it all the time to move animals around.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Measles is no longer endemic in the US according to the CDC.


https://arstechnica.com/science/201...ping-toward-measles-being-endemic-once-again/

"With firm vaccination campaigns, the US eliminated measles in 2000. The highly infectious virus was no longer constantly present in the country—no longer endemic. Since then, measles has only popped up when travelers carried it in, spurring mostly small outbreaks—ranging from a few dozen to a few hundred cases each year—that then fizzle out.

*But all that may be about to change*. With the rise of non-medical vaccine exemptions and delays, the country is backsliding toward endemic measles, Stanford and Baylor College of Medicine researchers warn this week. With extensive disease modeling, the researchers make clear just how close we are to seeing explosive, perhaps unshakeable, outbreaks."


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I don't have my proof of vaccinations and I had everything redone 20 years ago. 

I easily see a big business in fake proof of vaccinations starting. I bet very few here could provide theirs.
The US does not mandate it if their own citizens, very unlikely it would be mandated of others.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

I actually had the measle when I was 6. Pre-vaccine days. People who say it is "just" a childhood illness don't know what they are talking about. I was so sick, even ended up in emergency room.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

painterswife said:


> I don't have my proof of vaccinations and I had everything redone 20 years ago.
> 
> I easily see a big business in fake proof of vaccinations starting. I bet very few here could provide theirs.
> The US does not mandate it if their own citizens, very unlikely it would be mandated of others.


Exactly. Tourists aren't livestock, and can't be tracked like a cow. The turnaround time on blood work can be anywhere from overnight to a week. The only way to verify if someone has been immunized is to run blood work for a titer.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

keenataz said:


> I actually had the measle when I was 6. Pre-vaccine days. People who say it is "just" a childhood illness don't know what they are talking about. I was so sick, even ended up in emergency room.


i had them as well. Brother at the same time. It was a couple of weeks of a nightmare for my parents.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> *I don't have my proof* of vaccinations and I had everything redone 20 years ago.


That would be your problem if it were needed.



painterswife said:


> The US does not mandate it if their own citizens, very unlikely it would be mandated of others.


You keep repeating but really it's not totally true.
All 50 states require it if you want to enroll in public schools.

https://vaccines.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=005979



painterswife said:


> I easily see a big business in fake proof of vaccinations starting.


The fact people might try to break a law seems like a poor excuse to not have one that's needed if it can save lives.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

There are exemptions to mandated vaccines in all 50 states for public schools. They are tightening the exemptions, but they are still there in all 50 states.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That would be your problem if it were needed.
> 
> 
> You keep repeating but really it's not totally true.
> ...


That is not a mandate for all citizens.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Exactly. Tourists aren't livestock, and can't be tracked like a cow. The turnaround time on blood work can be anywhere from overnight to a week. The only way to verify if someone has been immunized is to run blood work for a titer.


Or simply have them provide current proof as a condition for the visa.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> That is not a mandate *for all* citizens.


I didn't say it was, but it covers the vast majority.
You implied it wasn't required for anyone.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> *There are exemptions* to mandated vaccines in all 50 states for public schools. They are tightening the exemptions, but they are still there in all 50 states.


That was stated earlier. 
They are part of the problem.



Bearfootfarm said:


> Many places actually do require vaccinations, but they also offer "exemptions" that people tend to abuse.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I didn't say it was, but it covers the vast majority.
> You implied it wasn't required for anyone.





Bearfootfarm said:


> I didn't say it was, but it covers the vast majority.
> You implied it wasn't required for anyone.


It is not required by the Federal government of everyone. The Federal government that creates and enforces the laws of entry into this country. The problem we are experiencing is because all citizens who are not immune compromised are not required to be vaccinated.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> An immigration visa. Very different from process requiring a full medical exam and police background check, fingerprinting and more. Takes months.
> 
> You still have nor answered my question on how you expect us to require something of others we don't require of ourselves for a tourist visa?


Because we seem to be importing measles, not exporting it. Unless there is some already established Treaty in place, we can make any rules we want regarding entry requirements.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Because we seem to be importing measles, not exporting it. Unless there is some already established Treaty in place, we can make any rules we want regarding entry requirements.


Just as much chance that the person importing it is a US Citizen. Until all US citizens are vaccinated and are providing proof on reentry you are not solving the problem.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> Exactly. Tourists aren't livestock, and can't be tracked like a cow. The turnaround time on blood work can be anywhere from overnight to a week. The only way to verify if someone has been immunized is to run blood work for a titer.


So you're saying it's to hard to do something, so let's just do nothing.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

Not do nothing but work in conjunction with other countries to help eliminate not only measles but many diseases ranging from malaria to leprosy.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> They'd have to pull a titer (for each disease vaccinated against) on every person coming into the country to be certain they were immunized. There would be little to no tourism.


Would it be impossible to require tourists to present their immunization records or doctor's letter stating that someone can't be vaccinated?

Travellers over a year old must produce a yellow fever vaccination certificate if they want to travel in certain countries, which is presented with their passport at arrivals.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Just as much chance that the person importing it is a US Citizen. Until all US citizens are vaccinated and are providing proof on reentry you are not solving the problem.


There was nothing in my post that precludes requiring American citizens to show proof of vaccination before re-entering the US.

On a more serious note, there is a terrible Ebola epidemic in Congo that has already killed over 1000 people. What if Ebola breaks out in one of the migrant caravans?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> There was nothing in my post that precludes requiring American citizens to show proof of vaccination before re-entering the US.
> 
> On a more serious note, there is a terrible Ebola epidemic in Congo that has already killed over 1000 people. What if Ebola breaks out in one of the migrant caravans?


Well, the Congo is on a different continent so I don't think it would affect the migrant caravans. It could be brought over by someone flying in from Africa just as many other infectious diseases are. Are you suggesting we test or quarantine all people entering the US?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wr said:


> Would it be impossible to require tourists to present their immunization records or doctor's letter stating that someone can't be vaccinated?
> 
> Travellers over a year old must produce a yellow fever vaccination certificate if they want to travel in certain countries, which is presented with their passport at arrivals.


As was mentioned earlier in the thread, immunization records and Dr's notes are one of the most easily faked documents. And as I've said throughout this thread, the only way to *verify* immunization are blood titer levels that indicate antibody levels.

Also as previously indicated, it still wouldn't work unless every American was vaccinated prior to travel to countries where the disease was prevalent.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Well, the Congo is on a different continent so I don't think it would affect the migrant caravans. It could be brought over by someone flying in from Africa just as many other infectious diseases are. Are you suggesting we test or quarantine all people entering the US?


The caravans include people from Africa.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> As was mentioned earlier in the thread, immunization records and Dr's notes are one of the most easily faked documents. And as I've said throughout this thread, the only way to verify immunization are blood titer levels that indicate antibody levels.
> 
> Also as previously indicated, it still wouldn't work unless every American was vaccinated prior to travel to countries where the disease was prevalent.


Quarantine is always an option if one refuses to be vaccinated.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> The caravans include people from Africa.


What is your solution for finding out who has ebola how ever they arrive?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

What do the US and Europe have in common?



> MORE than 100,000 people across Europe have been infected with the potentially deadly Measles virus, which is spreading an “alarming” rate., WHO has confirmed.


https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/la...ak-hits-100-000-people-in-Europe-WHO-confirms

And just like in US, they completely ignore the influx of illegal immigrants and blame the problem on citizen non-vaxers.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> Quarantine is always an option if one refuses to be vaccinated.


You want to quarantine tourists and Americans reentering the country? I can't see anything going wrong with that scenario. :sarcasm:


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> What is your solution for finding out who has ebola how ever they arrive?


Quarantine if they have recently been in a country that has Ebola or proof of Ebola vaccination.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> You want to quarantine tourists and Americans reentering the country? I can't see anything going wrong with that scenario. :sarcasm:


I don't want to quarantine anyone. If they refuse to show proof of vaccination they choose quarantine for themselves.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Quarantine is always an option if one refuses to be vaccinated.


So you are all for US Citizens being required to be vaccinated. In other words, don't expect something of others that you don't expect of yourself.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> What do the US and Europe have in common?
> 
> https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/la...ak-hits-100-000-people-in-Europe-WHO-confirms
> 
> And just like in US, they completely ignore the influx of illegal immigrants and blame the problem on citizen non-vaxers.


The crux of the problem IS anti-vaxxers. If all that were medically possible had been vaccinated there would be much much lower transmission rate in any country. Herd immunity.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Quarantine if they have recently been in a country that has Ebola.


Maybe we should quarantine US citizens that refuse to be vaccinated here as well or are you for expecting everyone entering into the US to be vaccinated so that no one here has to be?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> I don't want to quarantine anyone. If they refuse to show proof of vaccination they choose quarantine for themselves.


OK then...


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Maybe we should quarantine US citizens that refuse to be vaccinated here as well or are you for expecting everyone entering into the US to be vaccinated so that no one here has to be?


Two separate issues, but stopping contagious diseases from entering the US has been a part of immigration policy for a long time, but looking at today's policy shows how inconsistent and incompetent it is.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Two separate issues, but stopping contagious diseases from entering the US has been a part of immigration policy for a long time, but looking at today's policy shows how inconsistent and incompetent it is.


The work starts at home. You should be committed to it being part of the solution yourself before you expect others to do it for you.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

I remember having vaccination records attached to my passport when we traveled in the 1960's. Maybe that was a normal thing for armed forces dependents perhaps they still do it for dependents I don't know. for me being proactive makes way more sense then being reactive likely proactive is far less expensive then being reactive. What would the costs be to set up vaccination centers for refugees?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

ydderf said:


> I remember having vaccination records attached to my passport when we traveled in the 1960's. Maybe that was a normal thing for armed forces dependents perhaps they still do it for dependents I don't know. for me being proactive makes way more sense then being reactive likely proactive is far less expensive then being reactive. What would the costs be to set up vaccination centers for refugees?


I really have no problem with requiring vaccinations for people entering the country. I just also expect that the country must have the same policy for their own citizens. Don't ask others to do what you won't do.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> So you are all for US Citizens being required to be vaccinated. In other words, don't expect something of others that you don't expect of yourself.


Why do you keep repeatedly asking the same questions?



painterswife said:


> Are you suggesting we test or quarantine all people entering the US?


He's suggesting they prove they are vaccinated.
Read the posts. It's been stated multiple times.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Well, the Congo is on a different continent so *I don't think* it would affect the migrant caravans.


There are people in those caravans from Africa and the Middle East.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Don't ask others to do what you won't do.


LOL


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

MoonRiver said:


> There was nothing in my post that precludes requiring American citizens to show proof of vaccination before re-entering the US.
> 
> On a more serious note, there is a terrible Ebola epidemic in Congo that has already killed over 1000 people. What if Ebola breaks out in one of the migrant caravans?



Boy wait to try to strike fear. It would be quite a miracle for someone from Congo to walk across the Atlantic with Ebola to meet a migrant caravan.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

MoonRiver said:


> Two separate issues, but stopping contagious diseases from entering the US has been a part of immigration policy for a long time, but looking at today's policy shows how inconsistent and incompetent it is.


from what I understand the immunization rate in Central America is higher than the the US.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

keenataz said:


> Boy wait to try to strike fear. It would be quite a miracle for someone from Congo to walk across the Atlantic with Ebola to meet a migrant caravan.


There are these things called "ships"........



keenataz said:


> from what I understand the immunization rate in Central America is higher than the the US.


Then they should have no problem providing proof to *legally* gain entry.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> He's suggesting they prove they are vaccinated.


What is the only way to *prove* a person has been vaccinated?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> The crux of the problem IS anti-vaxxers. If all that were medically possible had been vaccinated there would be much much lower transmission rate in any country. Herd immunity.


Globally, 169 million children weren't given a first dose of the measles vaccine between 2010 and 2017


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Between 2010 and 2017, more than 2.5 million children in the US didn't get the first dose of the vaccine.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

According to the World Health Organization, Europe as a whole had 82,596 cases of measles last year and 72 measles deaths. Most of those infections — 53,218 — were recorded in Ukraine

Popular European tourist destinations such as France and Italy had more than 2,400 measles cases each from March 2018 to February 2019, according to the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, an EU agency. Greece had more than 1,400 measles cases and Britain reported over 900 during that time.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

keenataz said:


> Boy wait to try to strike fear. It would be quite a miracle for someone from Congo to walk across the Atlantic with Ebola to meet a migrant caravan.


Maybe they swam!


> The chronic onslaught of illegal immigrants heading to the United States isn’t just coming from Central America, *the caravan includes large groups of Africans*, Indians, Bangladeshis, Afghans, Pakistanis and Syrians that have made it all the way to Mexico.


https://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/...yrians-afghans-in-mexico-awaiting-u-s-asylum/


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

I'm just wondering how anti-vaxxers are getting all the blame on this one.

The CDC itself came out and stated that an entire generation (anyone born between 1963 and 1989) was vaccinated improperly. So you've got a ton of people that tried to do the right thing but are still liable to catch/spread measles because the powers that be were wrong. I should probably get another booster since I fall in that category, just haven't gotten around to it yet (keep forgetting to get a tetanus booster too). 

I wonder how many others think they're properly vaccinated and aren't. I'm betting a metric crap ton.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> The work starts at home. You should be committed to it being part of the solution yourself before you expect others to do it for you.


I don't have measles, although I did when I was in elementary school.

My point from the beginning has been that measles is being introduced from outside the US. As it was determined to be "eliminated from the *U*.S." in 2000, that means it is being brought into the country. If it wasn't brought in, it wouldn't make a difference whether children were vaccinated against it or not, plus there have been ZERO deaths from measles in US in last 10 years. It appears there may have been more deaths resulting from the vaccine than from measles itself in the last 10 years. https://healthimpactnews.com/2015/z...but-over-100-measles-vaccine-deaths-reported/


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I found this on the CDC site- https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/faqs.html

"Yes, people who know they got the killed measles vaccine (an earlier formulation of measles vaccine that is no longer used) should talk to their doctor about getting revaccinated with the current, live measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine.

Not many people fall into this group; the killed vaccine was given to less than 1 million people between 1963 and 1968. Also, most people don’t know if they got the killed vaccine during this time. If you’re unsure whether you fall into this group, you could ask your doctor to test your blood to determine whether you’re immune. Or you can just get a dose of MMR vaccine. There is no harm in getting another dose of MMR vaccine if you may already be immune to measles (or mumps or rubella)."

ETA: I was probably caught up in this (born in 1962 and wouldn't have had the vaccine until 1963), and I can't be revaccinated with a live virus because I'm immune compromised.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> I don't have measles, although I did when I was in elementary school.
> 
> My point from the beginning has been that measles is being introduced from outside the US. As it was determined to be "eliminated from the *U*.S." in 2000, that means it is being brought into the country. If it wasn't brought in, it wouldn't make a difference whether children were vaccinated against it or not, plus there have been ZERO deaths from measles in US in last 10 years. It appears there may have been more deaths resulting from the vaccine than from measles itself in the last 10 years. https://healthimpactnews.com/2015/z...but-over-100-measles-vaccine-deaths-reported/


It does make a difference. One case brought in by someone who was vaccinated but got it anyways ( yes it happens in a small percentage.) would cause an epidemic in a non vaccinated population, even in a population only partially vaccinated. Possibly even a pandemic.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> I don't have measles, although I did when I was in elementary school.
> 
> My point from the beginning has been that measles is being introduced from outside the US. As it was determined to be "eliminated from the *U*.S." in 2000, that means it is being brought into the country. If it wasn't brought in, it wouldn't make a difference whether children were vaccinated against it or not, plus there have been ZERO deaths from measles in US in last 10 years. It appears there may have been more deaths resulting from the vaccine than from measles itself in the last 10 years. https://healthimpactnews.com/2015/z...but-over-100-measles-vaccine-deaths-reported/


Measles complications- https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

And the information from the website you linked isn't credible. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/health-impact-news/#prettyPhoto


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Maybe we should quarantine US citizens that refuse to be vaccinated here as well or are you for expecting everyone entering into the US to be vaccinated so that no one here has to be?


Maybe we should.
Why do you keep asking the same questions as if they weren't answered long ago?


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> And the information from the website you linked *isn't credible*. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/health-impact-news/#prettyPhoto


You use that site often, but you've never explained what makes *them* "credible" aside from the fact you sometimes agree with them.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

*Scientology cruise ship to remain under quarantine in Curacao because of measles*
"WILLEMSTAD, Curacao (AP) — Authorities in Curacao say 318 people aboard a Church of Scientology ship docked in the Dutch Caribbean island will remain quarantined until they determine how many might be infected with measles.

Dr. Izzy Gerstenbluth told The Associated Press that a team of health officials took 277 blood samples and sent them to the Netherlands. He said he expects results on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Gerstenbluth said late Sunday that 31 crew members and 10 passengers provided a vaccination certificate. He said the atmosphere on the boat is good and that everyone has been cooperating.

The 440-foot Freewinds ship was previously quarantined in St. Lucia after a female crew member was diagnosed with measles." 
https://www.usatoday.com/story/trav...-ship-measles-quarantined-curacao/1116952001/


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> You should be committed to it being part of the solution yourself before you expect others to do it for you.


I feel that same way about self defense and school security.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You use that site often, but you've never explained what makes *them* "credible" aside from the fact you sometimes agree with them.


Here's is their methodology. If you have any questions feel free to email them. 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/methodology/


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Here's is their methodology.


So it's really just their opinions.



> When determining bias, there isn’t any true scientific formula that is 100% objective.


The only thing that makes them "more credible" is they *say* "we are fair and unbiased".

The CDC has also been know to lie.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> So it's really just their opinions.
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing that makes them "more credible" is they *say* "we are fair and unbiased".


I'm sorry you don't understand.  Perhaps if you emailed them for more information? Sadly, I can't help you.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm sorry you don't understand.


I understand they only offer opinions.



Irish Pixie said:


> Sadly, I can't help you.


I understand that as well.
I never expect that from you.


----------



## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> I found this on the CDC site- https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/faqs.html
> 
> "Yes, people who know they got the killed measles vaccine (an earlier formulation of measles vaccine that is no longer used) should talk to their doctor about getting revaccinated with the current, live measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine.
> 
> Not many people fall into this group; the killed vaccine was given to less than 1 million people between 1963 and 1968. Also, most people don’t know if they got the killed vaccine during this time. If you’re unsure whether you fall into this group, you could ask your doctor to test your blood to determine whether you’re immune. Or you can just get a dose of MMR vaccine. There is no harm in getting another dose of MMR vaccine if you may already be immune to measles (or mumps or rubella)."


The reports I've been reading are suggesting that the problem isn't only the killed version of the vaccine, but that those vaccinated before 1989 were only given one measles vaccination dose, whereas standard today is two. So either just get the booster, or have your blood tested for immunity.

Not that I don't expect government websites to be up to date and correct, but I kind of don't. This took some digging. I'm assuming if you're in that age group and in an area with a current measles outbreak, it would be sort of important to know.

https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/faqs.html

"If you were born after 1957 you need at least one dose of measles vaccine unless a laboratory confirmed that you had past measles infection or are immune to measles. Certain adults may need 2 doses. Adults who are going to be in a setting that poses a high risk for measles transmission should make sure they have had two doses separated by at least 28 days. These adults include


students at post-high school education institutions
healthcare personnel
international travelers
people who public health authorities determine are at increased risk for getting measles during a measles outbreak
If you’re not sure whether you are up to date on measles vaccine, talk with your doctor. More information about who needs measles vaccine."


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mish said:


> The reports I've been reading are suggesting that the problem isn't only the killed version of the vaccine, but that those vaccinated before 1989 were only given one measles vaccination dose, whereas standard today is two. So either just get the booster, or have your blood tested for immunity.
> 
> Not that I don't expect government websites to be up to date and correct, but I kind of don't. This took some digging. I'm assuming if you're in that age group and in an area with a current measles outbreak, it would be sort of important to know.
> 
> ...


Both Mr. Pixie and our oldest daughter (born in 1957 and 1983) had to have a second series when they entered nursing school.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> What is the only way to *prove* a person has been vaccinated?


A proof of vaccination card seems to work for schools and other countries, wouldn't it work here as well?


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> A proof of vaccination card seems to work for schools and other countries, wouldn't it work here as well?


It is not working for that Scientology ship. They are requiring blood tests.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wr said:


> A proof of vaccination card seems to work for schools and other countries, wouldn't it work here as well?


There's no logical reason to think it wouldn't.
To eliminate fraud they could use a computerized system of verification where the Dr's giving the vaccines enters the patients history. 

It's how they handle driver's licenses and car registrations, and those can be verified in under a minute much of the time.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> It is not working for that Scientology ship. *They* are requiring blood tests.


That's up to that country.
That isn't proof a card or some other method couldn't be used here.

It's merely an example of one situation where measles has actually been confirmed, and they are making a real effort to contain it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> I've tried to explain that it would be simple to fake a vaccination card, and it's been thoroughly documented that many doctors will fake an exemption, which is one reason why there are pockets of outbreaks. I don't know what you want me to say.


"Proof" *in this context* is whatever is accepted as proof.
The fact that some will lie seems like a poor excuse for doing nothing at all.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Nope, no context is needed. Proof is proof. The only proof that one is vaccinated (protected) against a disease is the antibody titer. I'm sorry if this isn't easily understood, perhaps Google is in order. 

Do countries, schools, etc. accept vaccination records, doctor's notes, etc.? Yes, some do and some don't. Vaccination records/doctor notes are not proof. As it stands right now, the US does not require any vaccinations for tourists or citizens to enter/reenter the country so the point is moot.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope, *no context is needed*. Proof is proof.
> The only proof that one is vaccinated (protected) against a disease is the antibody titer


Vaccinated just means vaccinated.
It doesn't mean proof it worked on every individual.
It shows they at least made an effort instead of endlessly making excuses.



Irish Pixie said:


> As it stands right now, the US does not require any vaccinations for tourists or citizens to enter/reenter the country so the point is moot.


And again you repeat things already stated, thinking the result will be different this time.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> It is not working for that Scientology ship. They are requiring blood tests.


The article I read, indicated that most children had not been vaccinated so I could see why blood tests would be required. Since people aren't required to travel with vaccination records, I would think that those who had vaccinated would have no tangible proof.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope, no context is needed. Proof is proof. The only proof that one is vaccinated (protected) against a disease is the antibody titer. I'm sorry if this isn't easily understood, perhaps Google is in order.
> 
> Do countries, schools, etc. accept vaccination records, doctor's notes, etc.? Yes, some do and some don't. Vaccination records/doctor notes are not proof. As it stands right now, the US does not require any vaccinations for tourists or citizens to enter/reenter the country so the point is moot.


Certainly documents can be forged but I doubt if many would go to those lenghts. Itseems to me that it would be a lot safer for those who can't safely be vaccinated, if others would minimize their risk.

Would you suggest that many people forge yellow fever vaccination cards?


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> As it stands right now, the US does not require any vaccinations for tourists or citizens to enter/reenter the country so the point is moot.


No, they don't but I believe we've been discussing the idea that maybe it could be something that could be changed. At some point, drinking and driving laws became more stringent, in my country the laws for cannibus consumption have changed so perhaps it's reasonable to believe that laws can be made or amended in other areas.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

So refreshing to read reason, and logic


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> Certainly documents can be forged but I doubt if many would go to those lenghts. Itseems to me that it would be a lot safer for those who can't safely be vaccinated, if others would minimize their risk.
> 
> Would you suggest that many people forge yellow fever vaccination cards?


Yes. A quick Google searchengine will show that forged Yellow fever cards is a serious problem.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wr said:


> Certainly documents can be forged but I doubt if many would go to those lenghts. Itseems to me that it would be a lot safer for those who can't safely be vaccinated, if others would minimize their risk.
> 
> Would you suggest that many people forge yellow fever vaccination cards?


Some are... https://vaxopedia.org/2019/01/24/are-parents-faking-their-childs-vaccine-records/


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I expect we would need a national vaccination database.

Either way that won't help the problem the original poster was referencing. Asylum seekers via caravans. They likely would not have records and blood tests would be needed or/and vaccinations at the borders and quarantine.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Yes. A quick Google searchengine will show that forged Yellow fever cards is a serious problem.


I found some issues within the countries that require them, mostly related to shortages of vaccine. We do seem to have some serious outbreaks and I'm of the opinion that we can do nothing and expect no improvement anytime soon or we can look at options on how we could improve the situation. 

I believe you posted a thread about an outbreak a while ago so it's something that you must find concerning. How do you feel we can contain these outbreaks.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> I found some issues within the countries that require them, mostly related to shortages of vaccine. We do seem to have some serious outbreaks and I'm of the opinion that we can do nothing and expect no improvement anytime soon or we can look at options on how we could improve the situation.
> 
> I believe you posted a thread about an outbreak a while ago so it's something that you must find concerning. How do you feel we can contain these outbreaks.


I believe we require vaccinations of all that are not immune compromised for a start.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> I believe we require vaccinations of all that are not immune compromised for a start.


I'm fond of the idea but could it also be said that doctor's notes for immune compromised could also be forged?


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> I'm fond of the idea but could it also be said that doctor's notes for immune compromised could also be forged?


So what would you do then? My solution is increasing our vaccination rate. What is yours?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> So what would you do then? My solution is increasing our vaccination rate. What is yours?


That's my feeling as well. I doubt if we'll ever see 100% coverage but we need to improve things considerably. As long as there are processes in place, there will be somebody determined to violate them but more coverage is helpful. 

While reading various articles about various facets of this discussion, I noticed that Gemany has no problems handing out huge fines for parents who refuse to vaccinate their children.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I believe that you must start with the rules at home before you try to put those rules on others. We could easily verify the few that would claim to be immune compromised in this country.

Yes BFF, I repeated myself and have acknowledged it. I thought I would save you a post by saying it.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I thought we didn't need to be vaccinated for measles after surviving it as a child?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

The death rate from measles is something like 1 in 1000. Considering the number of measles cases in US, measles is not a serious issue.

My op was using measles as an example of infectious diseases being brought into the country in any number of ways. For some reason, the media doesn't want to discuss the infectious diseases coming across our southern border.

We have tens of thousands of people in a highly stressful environment, without adequate food and water, with little medical care, coming into the country with little or no screening for infectious diseases. We might disagree on how it should be handled or how serious it is, but I don't think there is any debate that it is happening.

When you look at where these people are coming from, it is not 1st world countries with high medical standards. I truly don't understand why there should be any difference in concept between Ellis Island and any US border entry point.



> Those with visible health problems or diseases were sent home or held in the island's hospital facilities for long periods of time. More than 3,000 would-be immigrants died on Ellis Island while being held in the hospital facilities. Some unskilled workers were rejected because they were considered "likely to become a public charge."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellis_Island#Immigrant_inspection_station


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

haypoint said:


> The spread of measles in the Detroit area came from a guy that visited Israel. He returned without knowing he had gotten it.
> 
> I think people underestimate how much people move around. I know numerous Muslims in Detroit that fly back and forth to the Middle East nearly monthly.
> A few years ago, a group of Amish from Mt. Hope, Ohio did missionary work in the Philippians and brought back measles. No one was vaccinated. But they self quarantined and it didn't spread far.


From what I understand, that's how the measles outbreak in the Orthodox Jewish community in NY started 

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2019/t0429-national-update-measles.html



MoonRiver said:


> If it is required to get a visa, why shouldn't it be required for anyone entering the US?


As I believe someone pointed out, a visa isn't required in a lot of cases, for instance for an American to visit Israel and return in less than 90 days, no visa required.
If they weren't immune when they left the U.S., contracted it in another country and returned here with it, there is nothing legally in place that would prevent that from happening.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

farmrbrown said:


> If they weren't immune when they left the U.S., contracted it in another country and returned here with it, there is nothing legally in place that would prevent that from happening.


My question was why not? Isn't that what government is for? To defend the borders and protect the citizenry? Heck, plants brought into US have stricter regulations than people do. I remember a story about an American citizen who flew to Europe and had taken a banana with him. It caused a major problem when he arrived in Europe.


----------



## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

The vaccination percentage requires for herd immunity varies by disease, but I think it is 90% for measles. So you don’t have to get 100% compliance to effectively control the disease.

I have also read that the hard core anti-Vaxers are not the main problem, since their numbers are relatively small and can be accommodated within the 10%. It’s the “vax-hesitant” that are the main problem, the ones who are uncertain because of the disinformation, and so do nothing. This group is much larger.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

MoonRiver said:


> My question was why not? Isn't that what government is for? To defend the borders and protect the citizenry? Heck, plants brought into US have stricter regulations than people do. I remember a story about an American citizen who flew to Europe and had taken a banana with him. It caused a major problem when he arrived in Europe.


I did see where you asked that later on in the thread, but I started with the first assumption that this latest measles outbreak was the result of foreign immigrants bringing it in, rather than Americans traveling abroad and bringing it back and why the media was blaming antivaxxers in this country for the cause......



MoonRiver said:


> I have trouble believing the media that the cause of measles outbreaks is the anti-vaccine movement. If measles was eradicated in US, why would there be any outbreaks? How is the measles virus being transported into these communities?


I'm not one to put a lot of faith in the medical community as a whole for solving all our problems, but in this case, it's likely that the "blame" lies with a few unvaccinated American kids from a specific area, not immigrants to the U.S. legal or not.
It may be totally different in Southern California however, but most disease outbreaks can be traced to a source and not all are caused in the same way.

But to answer your other question......



MoonRiver said:


> The federal government has few Constitutionally defined functions. I would say that making sure people coming into the US do not have an infectious disease is one of them. This is not a function that can be accomplished by the individual states or the people.


The short answer is that it would cost a lot of money to examine, verify and/or quarantine everyone who entered or reentered the country 24/7/365 AND it would also be a fertile ground for court cases from people who would object to their personal liberty every time they bought a plane ticket, crossed a border or took a cruise.
Maybe it's an idea that's been bounced around in Congress before, and it was bounced into the waste basket?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> To defend the borders and protect the citizenry? *Heck, plants brought into US have stricter regulations than people do.*


So do animals.

There's really nothing that would prevent them from requiring visas to enter and exit the country, or to even set up clinics where the visas are issued. 

You can go to Wal-Mart and get a flu shot so a Measles vaccine doesn't have to be more complicated than either show proof you have it or stick out your arm and get one.


Whining and making excuses won't help anyone at all.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nothing to prevent it but money, that is.
75 million foreigners visiting annually and 80 million Americans going abroad.

That's a lot of "checking" to do.

https://share.america.gov/75-million-tourists-visited-us-2014/

https://www.cntraveler.com/story/a-record-80-million-americans-traveled-abroad-last-year


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

farmrbrown said:


> Nothing to prevent it but money, that is.
> 75 million foreigners visiting annually and 80 million Americans going abroad.
> 
> That's a lot of "checking" to do.
> ...


When it comes to the federal government, money is never the issue.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

MoonRiver said:


> When it comes to the federal government, money is never the issue.


I would say just the opposite, lol, and it usually goes for every other decision in this world of ours.
It's almost always about the money.

To be clear, when I gave that as the probable reason (money) I was referring to more than the cost of hiring more 'health inspectors' to regulate immigration at our borders, both incoming and outgoing.
There is more to the total equation than that.
Don't forget to include a larger cost that's difficult to calculate - the cost of business and commerce.
Not every international traveler is on vacation.
Many of these people are on business trips where time is money, and in the case of private jet flights are you going to now require all of them to be included too? They are now exempt from many of the regulations and procedures of commercial flyers.
That was really what I was referring to when I said the idea was probably brought up in Congress before. When a few influential lobbyists reminded members how many of their donors would be subject to this inconvenience, I'm sure they changed their minds about how good an idea it was.


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## ydderf (Dec 15, 2018)

If there were two lines at the border crossings and people saw the line with proof of vaccination being fast tracked there would be many who got vaccinated before their next trip. Something similar to the Nexus system.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> I would say just the opposite, lol, and it usually goes for every other decision in this world of ours.
> It's almost always about the money.
> 
> To be clear, when I gave that as the probable reason (money) I was referring to more than the cost of hiring more 'health inspectors' to regulate immigration at our borders, both incoming and outgoing.
> ...


It is definitely cheaper to require immunizations in your own country in more ways than just border staff.


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## dmm1976 (Oct 29, 2013)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Congress isn't doing their job.
> They are too busy trying to find dirt on Trump to worry about people dying from diseases that could be prevented by changing the law.


Seriously. 

Just move on jeez louise. I'm tempted to vote for trump just because of how this is being handled. How many committees do they have to find dirt on trump and people surrounding trump or to i vestigate the investigation? How many o. Health?

I dont know the answer but id bet that its pretty lopsided.


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## dmm1976 (Oct 29, 2013)

Full disclosure. Ill probably vote for yang.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

ydderf said:


> If there were two lines at the border crossings and people saw the line with proof of vaccination being fast tracked there would be many who got vaccinated before their next trip. Something similar to the Nexus system.


Yep, that's true.
The whole airport security thing is a real burr in my saddle because it's an infringement of our constitutional rights, mainly the 4th amendment
I have conceded to giving up that right once, for my mom.
Mother's Day being tomorrow, I'm reminded that there are very few reasons that I would submit to that, but she would be one of them.
But doing it just because the gov't said so isn't on my list.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

dmm1976 said:


> Full disclosure. Ill probably vote for yang.


There is still time to convince you to vote for Ying.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Ying has a thing for Yangs and tends to cover over the tan lines on his ring finger.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> I was referring to more than the cost of hiring *more 'health inspectors'* to regulate immigration at our borders, both incoming and outgoing.


There's no need for more "health inspectors".
There's only a need for requiring proof of vaccination, just like they require an ID.
It will be the traveler's responsibility to obtain the proper documentation.
It doesn't take more people to look at one more piece of paper, or check one more item in a database.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I think you all are making this too hard. Just make it clear that anyone entering (or re-entering) the country, must show proof of certain specific vaccinations, dependent on which countries they have recently visited. I think business travelers are smart enough to figure this out. Same for tourists from US. Our embassies should be able to answer any questions from people traveling to US.

If someone wants to build a database, fine.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Passports get forged too. I never did that, but I saw it in the movies.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's no need for more "health inspectors".
> There's only a need for requiring proof of vaccination, just like they require an ID.
> It will be the traveler's responsibility to obtain the proper documentation.
> It doesn't take more people to look at one more piece of paper, or check one more item in a database.





MoonRiver said:


> I think you all are making this too hard. Just make it clear that anyone entering (or re-entering) the country, must show proof of certain specific vaccinations, dependent on which countries they have recently visited. I think business travelers are smart enough to figure this out. Same for tourists from US. Our embassies should be able to answer any questions from people traveling to US.
> 
> If someone wants to build a database, fine.


Sure, there's nothing to it......

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/adults/vaccination-records.html



> *How to Locate Your Vaccination Records*
> Unfortunately, there is no national organization that maintains vaccination records. The CDC does not have this information. The records that exist are the ones you or your parents were given when the vaccines were administered and the ones in the medical record of the doctor or clinic where the vaccines were given.
> 
> 
> ...


http://www.immunize.org/askexperts/documenting-vaccination.asp



> *We frequently see patients, such as immigrants, who do not have records of past vaccination or who insist they or their children are up to date. Should we accept their undocumented vaccination history?*
> Vaccination providers frequently encounter people who do not have adequate documentation of vaccinations. Providers should only accept written, dated records as evidence of vaccination. With the exception of influenza and pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccines, self-reported doses of vaccine without written documentation should not be accepted. An attempt to locate missing records should be made whenever possible by contacting previous healthcare providers, reviewing state or local immunization information systems, and searching for a personally held record. However, if records cannot be located or will definitely not be available anywhere because of the patient's circumstances, people without adequate documentation should be considered susceptible and should be started on the age-appropriate vaccination schedule. Serologic testing for immunity is an alternative to vaccination for certain antigens (e.g., measles, rubella, or hepatitis A).
> In general, although it is not ideal, receiving extra doses of vaccine poses no medical problem. Receiving excessive doses of tetanus toxoid (DTaP, DT, Tdap, or Td) can increase the risk of a local adverse reaction, however. For details, consult the ACIP’s Best Practice Guidelines for Immunization chapter titled Timing and Spacing of Immunobiologics, available at www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/acip-recs/general-recs/timing.html.
> *We sometimes encounter patients with foreign vaccination records. We suspect that some of these records are not valid. What should we do?*
> If a provider suspects an invalid vaccination, including those from persons vaccinated outside the U.S., one of two approaches can be taken. Repeating the vaccinations is an acceptable option. Doing so is generally safe and avoids the need to obtain and interpret serologic tests. If avoiding unnecessary injections is desired, judicious use of serologic testing might be helpful in determining which immunizations are needed. This may be particularly helpful in determining tetanus and diphtheria antitoxin levels for children whose records indicate 3 or more doses of DTP or DTaP. This issue is discussed in detail in the ACIP’s General Best Practice Guidelines for Immunization chapter titled Special Situations, available atwww.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/acip-recs/general-recs/special-situations.html.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

farmrbrown said:


> Sure, there's nothing to it......


It is already required to get a Visa.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

MoonRiver said:


> It is already required to get a Visa.


Yes.
That takes care of 9 million out of the 150 million travelers or roughly 6%.
Only 94% to go.................


https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...isa-statistics/immigrant-visa-statistics.html


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> *Nothing to prevent it but money*, that is.
> 75 million foreigners visiting annually and 80 million Americans going abroad.
> 
> That's a lot of "checking" to do.


It's one more document to look at.
It doesn't cost us more money.
We could even charge them for the privilege.



farmrbrown said:


> Sure, there's nothing to it......


They don't have to "maintain records".
The travelers just have to show documentation.
It doesn't have to be any more complicated than showing an ID.


----------



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

All this measles thing has done for me is further lower my faith in the mainstream media. 

While the news weeks ago was beating their drums about the states with confirmed cases, reporting of local government actions and hospital and CDC involvement and snake oil pitchman pushing inoculation at younger ages almost down to trying to probably push pregnant women to get an embryonic sack injection "just in case" (yes I am being sarcastic of inoculating embryos). our state had no Evidence of any measles, but a week ago or so, one possible case got reported.

In the time since until today, every local newscast led of with " a CDC confirmed positive measles occurrence while snake oil sideshow intensity pushing vaccination for infants as young as 5 to 6 months down from the usual year to 16 month age normally advised by pediatricians.

Today the local news reported that the initial presumed positive measles report of the one case they have been leading off their newscasts with was actually a false positive result from a for profit commercial testing facility contracted by a hospital chain here and the CDC test completed Thursday or Friday was certified as negative and the state is back to no verified cases status.

Of course the newscast didn't apologize for their weeks worth of misreporting , fearmongering and snake oil sideshow pushing of the situation.

Mainstream media sure enjoys mixing up the facts to gain soap opera level drama. It's getting so that the only part of the news you can halfway trust is the weather segment and even all but one of our local stations meteorologists go as far dramatic as they can.

At least we have one channel where the weather folks still report the weather as best they can, explain the various models they use and arn't afraid to admit when they don't have enough information to say they really don't know but as soon as they get better data they will try to narrow their forecast possibilities.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's one more document to look at.
> It doesn't cost us more money.
> We could even charge them for the privilege.


That's true, even though it has nothing to do with what I posted.




> They don't have to "maintain records".
> The travelers just have to show documentation.
> It doesn't have to be any more complicated than showing an ID.


"They" don't have to maintain records?
"They" would be the travelers who have to get, update and carry the documentation.



> maintain |mānˈtān|verb [ with obj. ]1 cause or enable (a condition or state of affairs) to continue: the need to maintain close links between industry and schools.• keep (something) at the same level or rate: agricultural prices will have to be maintained.• keep (a building, machine, or road) in good condition or in working order by checking or repairing it regularly.
> 2 provide with necessities for life or existence: the allowance covers the basic costs of maintaining a child.• keep (a military unit) supplied with equipment and other requirements.• archaic give one's support to; uphold: the king swears he will maintain the laws of God.



"Showing" it is the easy part.
Verifying millions of records from all over the world and obtaining the ones required for each person is the hardest part.
But I'm sure it's as easy as any other trip to the DMV or gov't record keeping office...........


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> "They" don't have to maintain records?
> "They" would be the travelers who have to get, update and carry the documentation.


"They" in my comment is the CDC, which was the source you were quoting.



farmrbrown said:


> Verifying millions of records from all over the world and *obtaining the ones required for each person is the hardest part*.
> But I'm sure it's as easy as any other trip to the DMV or gov't record keeping office...........


What's so "hard" about going to a Dr, getting a shot, and getting a document that shows you did it? 

There's no extra "Govt office" involved. 

They keep medical records already. 
It's one more line in your file.

If the travelers want to enter the country, they can get the vaccinations.
It's really that simple.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> "They" in my comment is the CDC, which was the source you were quoting.
> 
> 
> What's so "hard" about going to a Dr, getting a shot, and getting a document that shows you did it?
> ...



Simply read the links again then.
I even quoted the answers to your questions before you asked them in that post.




> If you need official copies of vaccination records, or if you need to update your personal records, there are several places you can look:
> 
> 
> Ask parents or other caregivers if they have records of your childhood immunizations.
> ...


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> Simply read the links again then.


There's no need to read them again.
They will still say the same thing.



farmrbrown said:


> I even quoted the answers to your questions before you asked them in that post.


Not really.
You just copied and pasted some stuff from the CDC about how to find old records.

None of that keeps someone from getting a measles vaccination if they can't prove they had one 
before.

You answered questions I *didn't* ask at all, and posted lots of unrelated links.
It's the same old pattern.



> What's so "hard" about going to a Dr, getting a shot, and getting a document that shows you did it?


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's no need to read them again.
> They will still say the same thing.


Yep, word for word.


> Not really.
> You just copied and pasted some stuff from the CDC about how to find old records.


That was the 1st link, and only part of it..........



What's so "hard" about going to a Dr, getting a shot, and getting a document that shows you did it?


> Keep in mind that generally records are kept only for 1-2 years after students leave the system.
> Keep in mind that vaccination records are maintained at doctor’s office for a limited number of years.







> None of that keeps someone from getting a measles vaccination if they can't prove they had one
> before.



Unless you read the whole quote.........
*Serologic testing for immunity is an alternative to vaccination for certain antigens (e.g., measles, rubella, or hepatitis A).*




> You answered questions I *didn't* ask at all, and posted lots of unrelated links.
> It's the same old pattern.


Uh huh........every question, copied and pasted, spaced individually and in quotes.
It doesn't get much simpler than that.




I shortened the 1st one to make it easier, but this one is longer.........

*We frequently see patients, such as immigrants, who do not have records of past vaccination or who insist they or their children are up to date. Should we accept their undocumented vaccination history?*
Vaccination providers frequently encounter people who do not have adequate documentation of vaccinations. Providers should only accept written, dated records as evidence of vaccination. With the exception of influenza and pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccines, self-reported doses of vaccine without written documentation should not be accepted. An attempt to locate missing records should be made whenever possible by contacting previous healthcare providers, reviewing state or local immunization information systems, and searching for a personally held record. However, if records cannot be located or will definitely not be available anywhere because of the patient's circumstances, people without adequate documentation should be considered susceptible and should be started on the age-appropriate vaccination schedule. Serologic testing for immunity is an alternative to vaccination for certain antigens (e.g., measles, rubella, or hepatitis A).
In general, although it is not ideal, receiving extra doses of vaccine poses no medical problem. Receiving excessive doses of tetanus toxoid (DTaP, DT, Tdap, or Td) can increase the risk of a local adverse reaction, however. For details, consult the ACIP’s Best Practice Guidelines for Immunization chapter titled Timing and Spacing of Immunobiologics, available at www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/acip-recs/general-recs/timing.html.
*We sometimes encounter patients with foreign vaccination records. We suspect that some of these records are not valid. What should we do?*
If a provider suspects an invalid vaccination, including those from persons vaccinated outside the U.S., one of two approaches can be taken. Repeating the vaccinations is an acceptable option. Doing so is generally safe and avoids the need to obtain and interpret serologic tests. If avoiding unnecessary injections is desired, judicious use of serologic testing might be helpful in determining which immunizations are needed. This may be particularly helpful in determining tetanus and diphtheria antitoxin levels for children whose records indicate 3 or more doses of DTP or DTaP. This issue is discussed in detail in the ACIP’s General Best Practice Guidelines for Immunization chapter titled Special Situations, available atwww.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/acip-recs/general-recs/special-situations.html.


And don't forget this part......


> *Persons Vaccinated Outside the United States*
> Clinicians have a limited ability to determine whether persons are protected on the basis of their country of origin and their vaccination records alone. Vaccines administered outside the United States generally can be accepted as valid if the schedule (i.e., minimum ages and intervals) is similar to that recommended in the United States. With the exception of influenza vaccine, only written documentation should be accepted as evidence of previous vaccination. Written records are more likely to predict protection if the vaccines, dates of administration, intervals between doses, and age at the time of vaccination are comparable to U.S. recommendations. Although vaccines with inadequate potency have been produced in other countries (_53,54_), the majority of vaccines used worldwide are produced with adequate quality control standards and are potent.
> 
> Persons vaccinated outside of the United States can enter the country through a number of different mechanisms. Those seeking to immigrate to the United States may be vaccinated under the authority of a civil surgeon or a panel physician. Some enter the United States as refugees and are vaccinated under the authority of the Office of Refugee Resettlement, part of the Administration for Children and Families, in the Department of Health and Human Services.
> ...



Now all THAT won't cost time or money, will it?


----------



## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

I remember there was "three day measles" and "German measles"(the serious kind that supposedly could cause birth defects in unborn children). Is that still the definition of measles today?

geo


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

farmrbrown said:


> Yes.
> That takes care of 9 million out of the 150 million travelers or roughly 6%.
> Only 94% to go.................
> 
> ...


Should we require that people coming from areas with Ebola are put in quarantine or show proof of vaccination, or should they just be allowed in and just let the American people deal with a (possible) breakout in US?


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> Should we require that people coming from areas with Ebola are put in quarantine or show proof of vaccination, or should they just be allowed in and just let the American people deal with a (possible) breakout in US?


This is from 2017, and I have no idea if the procedures are still in place, but there are protocol for people entering the US from places that have ebola outbreaks. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5572187/


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

MoonRiver said:


> Should we require that people coming from areas with Ebola are put in quarantine or show proof of vaccination, or should they just be allowed in and just let the American people deal with a (possible) breakout in US?


Yes, we should definitely allow an Ebola outbreak here because a few Hassidic Jews visited family last month and their kids got measles in New York.


Nooooo........that's not right.
We HAD an Ebola scare in Texas I think, a couple of years ago from returning health care workers and one guy that was transported for intensive care.
We put a lockdown on that so quick that you could hear the door slam.
In a few weeks, the all clear sounded and the media frenzy went somewhere else.
We handle the rough storms pretty well, you just learn to use your head and not panic.

But, Ebola doesn't really have an approved vaccine yet, and certainly not a 50 year track record like measles, which is far from the lethal death rate of a hemorrhagic fever disease.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_vaccine

Now what was the 1st page of this thread about?
Media claims about measles causes and vaccinations required for visas (6% of the international travel in the U.S.) and whether the National Health centers are doing their jobs?


https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/65/su/su6503a9.htm


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

farmrbrown said:


> But, Ebola doesn't really have an approved vaccine yet, and certainly not a 50 year track record like measles, which is far from the lethal death rate of a hemorrhagic fever disease.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_vaccine


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_vaccine
In April 2019, following a large-scale ring-vaccination scheme in the DRC outbreak, the WHO published the preliminary results of its research, in association with the DRC's Institut National pour la Recherche Biomedicale, into the effectiveness of the ring vaccination program, stating that the rVSV-ZEBOV-GP vaccine had been 97.5% effective at stopping Ebola transmission, relative to no vaccination.[4][5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RVSV-ZEBOV_vaccine​


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

It appears other countries are doing it:



> The Centers for Disease Control maintains a list of recommended and required vaccines or immunizations for countries in Europe. In general, European countries expect American travelers to be immunized in keeping with the U.S. schedule and no additional vaccinations are required. Measles and polio are of particular concern in Eastern Europe, so be sure you're up to date on those vaccines. If you are traveling to Europe after visiting a country where yellow fever is present, carry proof of yellow fever vaccination. Bring a supply of personal medications, along with your prescriptions, as your U.S.-administered medications can be different or not available in Europe. Bring a supply of over-the-counter medications you use regularly, as well.


https://traveltips.usatoday.com/needed-travel-europe-41400.html


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> What's so "hard" about going to a Dr, getting a shot, and getting a document that shows you did it?


Repeating yourself won't change the outcome.



farmrbrown said:


> Now all THAT won't cost time or money, will it?


No, because it has nothing to do with what I said.
That's just you doing your normal "data dumps" instead of a simple straight answer.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

farmrbrown said:


> I would say just the opposite, lol, and it usually goes for every other decision in this world of ours.
> It's almost always about the money.
> 
> To be clear, when I gave that as the probable reason (money) I was referring to more than the cost of hiring more 'health inspectors' to regulate immigration at our borders, both incoming and outgoing.
> ...


Even those who fly on private planes are required to have their passports verified and pass through customs and they aren't exempt from any regulations. Would it be overly difficult to present a current vaccination card at the same time the present identification and passport? That very same card could also indicate if the cardholder is unable to be vaccinated for health reasons. 

It seems to me that if our governments have streamlined the process to get a dog or cat accross a border, which does include requiring proof of vaccinations, it can't be that difficult for humans. 

I doubt if it will eliminate all outbreaks but if it seems to me that if we ensure our own people are vaccinated, ensure visitors are vaccinated, require vaccinations as part of the immigration process (if it isn't already) and quarrantine those seeking assylum until they are vaccinated, we should see improvement. 

Vaccinations protect travellers as much as they protect the public.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wr said:


> It seems to me that if our governments have streamlined the process to get a dog or cat across a border, which does include requiring proof of vaccinations, it can't be that difficult for humans.


It wouldn't be difficult at all.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

MoonRiver said:


> It appears other countries are doing it:
> 
> https://traveltips.usatoday.com/needed-travel-europe-41400.html





wr said:


> Even those who fly on private planes are required to have their passports verified and pass through customs and they aren't exempt from any regulations. Would it be overly difficult to present a current vaccination card at the same time the present identification and passport? That very same card could also indicate if the cardholder is unable to be vaccinated for health reasons.
> 
> It seems to me that if our governments have streamlined the process to get a dog or cat accross a border, which does include requiring proof of vaccinations, it can't be that difficult for humans.
> 
> ...


Yes, there are various requirements for different countries some more strict than others. But a large majority have something in common. They have a lax set of rules for tourists and business travelers (defined by stays of 90 days or less) and then there are *visas*. Visas are generally for those wishing to immigrate/emigrate to another country. They plan on moving and living there. There are also sub groups like work visas, student visas etc. but they all are asking for stays longer than 3 months, usually 6 months minimum.

That's 9 million out of 150 million, you can cut that to 80 million if you only want to count incoming foreign travelers and exclude our own people that leave for a short trip and come back, making the total 150 million.
So, without a change in what we and the rest of the world require for a "visa" (less than 90 days stay) we're only affecting 6-10% of those travelers, most of whom are *already covered * by vaccine requirements for their visas.

Now, I don't necessarily think that's a bad idea at all. It IS more effective to just concentrate on your own population's immunity, that way it doesn't matter who slips thru the cracks, you're protected from a major crisis.
But if y'all are gung ho for requiring vax cards from everyone coming across any border, anywhere, go for it.
I ain't mad atcha. 

I was just answering the question "why not?"
You may have thought those were *my* reasons to oppose the idea, but what I'm saying is I guarantee some bean counter working for the gov't in a basement in D.C. has already crunched the numbers are handed it to his superiors, who passed it around whatever committee is in charge of bring it to a vote...............and it was DOA.
The reason was money, but not because they couldn't get it from your paycheck every Friday. They already do THAT.
It likely showed how much it would slow the flow of business and tourism dollars and it didn't outweigh the risk of a few sick people.

"Hey, we gave 'em Obamacare, right? Let 'em go see a doctor."


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

MoonRiver said:


> In April 2019, following a large-scale ring-vaccination scheme in the DRC outbreak, the WHO published the preliminary results of its research, in association with the DRC's Institut National pour la Recherche Biomedicale, into the effectiveness of the ring vaccination program, stating that the rVSV-ZEBOV-GP vaccine had been 97.5% effective at stopping Ebola transmission, relative to no vaccination.[4][5]
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RVSV-ZEBOV_vaccine​


Yes, that was 30 days ago
But the CDC hasn't finished with studying and approving it yet, that could take years.
The reason this vaccine was fast tracked was because the disease is so deadly and communicable, they had another bonafide emergency on their hands, and it was the only thing they had worth trying.
When it's the last poker hand of the night and you're down that much, might as well go all in.

That's also the reason this was a "ring program" study, which isn't a normal way to get a vaccine tested and approved.
This was a Hail Mary. I'm glad it worked, but it was given to the small circle of people with known contact with the patient, not using a random population and a control group with a placebo.
IIRC, back in the Texas outbreak, they made a quick vaccine out of blood of one peerson who survived and recovered. They took it back to Africa and started using it to try to save more.
I never heard much after that, so I don't know how well it worked, but that's considered highly experiment medicine over here and the profession kinda frowns on it. 
Now, the lawyers OTOH LOVE to hear about it.............


But my point was the same. 
If you start making Ebola vaccination a requirement, and they show up without proof, one of the options offered is, "Roll up your sleeve and we'll give you one."
The vaccine's not ready even if you're ready to change the law.


----------



## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

geo in mi said:


> I remember there was "three day measles" and "German measles"(the serious kind that supposedly could cause birth defects in unborn children). Is that still the definition of measles today?
> 
> geo


There's regular measles and then rubella aka German measles or 3 day measles. I had just looked that up because I thought I had 3 different types as a child but turns out German & 3 day measles are the same thing.


----------



## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Teej said:


> There's regular measles and then rubella aka German measles or 3 day measles. I had just looked that up because I thought I had 3 different types as a child but turns out German & 3 day measles are the same thing.


So, does one vaccination cover them all?

geo


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

geo in mi said:


> So, does one vaccination cover them all?


https://vaxopedia.org/2017/05/12/measles-vaccines-vs-measles-strains/
"What about measles?

There are at least 24 different genotypes of measles that come from 8 different clades (A-H), with even more wild type virus strains (based on those genotype).

These genotypes include A (all vaccine strains are genotype A), B2, B3, C1, C2, D2, D3, D4, D5, D6, D7, D8, D9, D10, D11, G2, G3, H1, and H2.

In general, genotypes are restricted to a specific part of the world, such as:


African Region – B2, B3
Eastern Mediterranean Region – B3, D4, D8
European Region – D4, D5, D6
Southeast Asian Region – D4, D5, D8, D9, G2, G3, H1
Western Pacific Region – D5, D9, G3, H1
In countries that have eliminated measles, like the United States, the genotypes that are found will depend on from where the measles strain was imported.

Additionally, five genotypes, B1, D1, E, F, and G1 are now inactive."


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

geo in mi said:


> So, does one vaccination cover them all?
> 
> geo


There are two man types of measles, Teej outlined them above, measles and rubella. There are subsets/strains under the classifications of measles and rubella as well. The MMR vaccination covers measles, mumps, and rubella.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

https://komonews.com/news/local/washington-state-limits-exemptions-for-measles-vaccine

"VANCOUVER, Wash. (AP) — Parents in Washington state will no longer be able to claim a personal or philosophical exemption for their children from receiving the combined measles, mumps and rubella vaccine before attending a day care center or school under a measure signed Friday by Gov. Jay Inslee.

The state saw more than 70 cases of measles this year, and Inslee signed the bill at Vancouver City Hall, in the county where most of those cases were centered. The new law takes effect at the end of July.

Inslee said that while the bill was an important step in public health, he warned it doesn't do "everything necessary to protect the health of our most vulnerable citizens."


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> My op was using measles as an example of infectious diseases being brought into the country in any number of ways. For some reason, the media doesn't want to discuss the infectious diseases coming across our southern border.


You sure don't hear much about the thousands of Syrian refugees in Minneapolis, Minnesota that carry tuberculosis. Cost of $100,000 per person to cure.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

haypoint said:


> You sure don't hear much about the thousands of Syrian refugees in Minneapolis, Minnesota that carry tuberculosis. Cost of $100,000 per person to cure.


In a lot of ways, we already have socialized medicine!


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

haypoint said:


> You sure don't hear much about the thousands of Syrian refugees in Minneapolis, Minnesota that carry tuberculosis. Cost of $100,000 per person to cure.


Yes, and TB is far more serious than measles.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> You sure don't hear much about the thousands of Syrian refugees in Minneapolis, Minnesota that carry tuberculosis. Cost of $100,000 per person to cure.


If I recall correctly, you've brought this topic into discussion many many times. I just Googled "syrian refugees tuberculosis mn treatment cost" and nothing came up on the cost of treatment. Do you have a link?


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Do you have a link?


*"Cost of TB treatment*

Image: wikidoc.org
Abstract. Nearly three-quarters of patients were hospitalized, 78% completed treatment, and 9% died during treatment. Direct costs, mostly covered by the public sector, averaged $134,000 per MDR TB and $430,000 per XDR TB patient; in comparison, estimated cost per non-MDR TB patient is $17,000."

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/20/5/13-1037_article


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> *"Cost of TB treatment*
> 
> Image: wikidoc.org
> Abstract. Nearly three-quarters of patients were hospitalized, 78% completed treatment, and 9% died during treatment. Direct costs, mostly covered by the public sector, averaged $134,000 per MDR TB and $430,000 per XDR TB patient; in comparison, estimated cost per non-MDR TB patient is $17,000."
> ...


Thank you. Were does it state "Syrian refugees"? I must have missed it. And it indicates the cost for meds resistant TB, where is the breakdown percentage of afflicted Syrian refugee and average Minneapolis, MN citizen?

Further, it's based on on a study from 2005-07, *and the patients were from NYC, California, and Texas*, what does it have to do with Syrians in Minneapolis, MN?

And finally, the goverment accepted all refugees (Syrian and otherwise) into the country. It's what we did, we accepted and cared for those that couldn't care for themselves. With the legal acceptance of those refugees comes a cost.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you. Were does it state "Syrian refugees"?


Where does it state the costs vary by nationality?



Irish Pixie said:


> Further, it's based on on a study from 2005-07


Thank you for stating what anyone can read.
Costs would be higher now.



Irish Pixie said:


> And finally, the goverment accepted all refugees (Syrian and otherwise) into the country.


That has nothing to do with the costs to treat their diseases.


If you don't like what I posted, I really don't care.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

> Hundreds of African migrants gathered on the Mexican side of the bridge that separates Laredo, Texas, from Nuevo Laredo, Tamaulipas, on Monday


https://www.breitbart.com/border/20...nts-protest-for-entry-at-texas-border-bridge/


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

MoonRiver said:


> https://www.breitbart.com/border/20...nts-protest-for-entry-at-texas-border-bridge/


Why don't they apply for asylum in Mexico?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

"African and Haitian migrants stranded for two months in southern Mexico during an immigration crackdown begun by the United States are living in a roadside shantytown whose squalid conditions endanger health and hurt nearby small businesses, residents and local migrant aid organizations say."

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-...n-forms-in-Mexican-border-city/5501557701209/


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> "African and Haitian migrants stranded for two months in southern Mexico during an immigration crackdown begun by the United States are living in a roadside shantytown whose squalid conditions endanger health and hurt nearby small businesses, residents and local migrant aid organizations say."
> 
> https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-...n-forms-in-Mexican-border-city/5501557701209/


Maybe they should try some other country? Sounds like Mexico doesn't take good care of them. We know the USA would be a nightmare for them, what with all the racists here. Maybe Venezuela?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Why don't they apply for asylum in Mexico?




C'mon, ask a hard question, like how the heck did they get to the U.S./Mexican border all the way from Africa?

But first, let's answer the easy one.
No offense to our Southern neighbors, I'm sure Mexico is a nice place to visit, but I'm not sure I'd want to live there.
How bout you?




Yvonne's hubby said:


> Maybe they should try some other country? Sounds like Mexico doesn't take good care of them. We know the USA would be a nightmare for them, what with all the racists here. Maybe Venezuela?


I wondered about that since they HAD to have passed thru many places to get there.
One group fleeing Africa are English speaking people from Cameroon........

https://www.thedailybeast.com/heres...d-join-the-migrant-caravan-heading-for-the-us


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> C'mon, ask a hard question, like how the heck did they get to the U.S./Mexican border all the way from Africa?
> 
> But first, let's answer the easy one.
> No offense to our Southern neighbors, I'm sure Mexico is a nice place to visit, but I'm not sure I'd want to live there.
> How bout you?


im not a citizen, nor speak the language. But then I'm not the one claiming my own government is trying to kill me. It just seems to me those folks should be more concerned for their safety than which beach they sip their umbrella drinks on.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> im not a citizen, nor speak the language. But then I'm not the one claiming my own government is trying to kill me. It just seems to me those folks should be more concerned for their safety than which beach they sip their umbrella drinks on.



That wasn't the impression I got from reading about what they faced, but maybe I'm wrong?
https://www.thenewhumanitarian.org/...on-s-anglophone-war-part-1-rifle-only-way-out


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> African and Haitian migrants stranded for two months in southern Mexico during an immigration crackdown begun by the United States are living in a roadside shantytown whose squalid conditions *endanger health* and hurt nearby small businesses, residents and local migrant aid organizations say."


They should have stayed at home.
Letting them in our country endangers our health.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> That wasn't the impression I got from reading about what they faced, but maybe I'm wrong?
> https://www.thenewhumanitarian.org/...on-s-anglophone-war-part-1-rifle-only-way-out


Interesting article, sounds a bit to me they are having issues with the government back home. My question was why not apply for sanctuary in Mexico, why must it be the USA that takes them?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

farmrbrown said:


> That wasn't the impression I got from reading about what they faced, but maybe I'm wrong?
> https://www.thenewhumanitarian.org/...on-s-anglophone-war-part-1-rifle-only-way-out


From your link: "Cameroon’s anglophone minority has been requesting greater autonomy since former territories held by the British and French were federated into one central African nation in 1961. These demands have become steadily more vocal since the 1980s.

In October 2017, peaceful protests – calling for the use of English in courts and classes – took a turn for the worse when security forces killed dozens of demonstrators and jailed hundreds more. This violence led to the birth of several separatist armed groups that have since killed and kidnapped numerous officials in the Northwest Region and the Southwest Region, the two majority anglophone areas. Abang’s group, the Ambazonia Defense Forces, or ADF, is the largest.

More than 180,000 people have been displaced by counter-insurgency operations by Cameroon’s security forces, who have killed civilians and burnt down villages. Most of the fighters interviewed by IRIN joined the militia after they were forced to flee their homes."

The US used to help refugees, that's why they come here for asylum.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yeah, I know, right?
I figured the easy question had an obvious answer.
"Why here?"
After reading the article about the particular circumstances of some of the Africans seeking asylum, it was even more obvious to me.
Besides the fact that the USA is the #1 choice in the world for immigrants, these people are considered "anglophones" in their own country. I imagine that in addition to speaking English they were also raised in a more anglo-customed way, for lack of a better term.
I guess they could have sought asylum in Europe like many others, but let's face it.
Despite all the criticism we receive, our country is still the envy of the world.

The other less obvious reason relates to a moral responsibility that the Africans never
accused us of, but I gleaned from the article.
The gov't troops that drove them out of their own country were armed and trained by *us* and our allies. This wasn't intentional, we were assisting Africans in their fight against Boko Haram and other terrorists. Unfortunately things don't always go as planned.

But it would seem apparent that in at least of few of these cases, seeking U.S. asylum would be a perfectly logical choice and granting it as well.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> From your link: "Cameroon’s anglophone minority has been requesting greater autonomy since former territories held by the British and French were federated into one central African nation in 1961. These demands have become steadily more vocal since the 1980s.
> 
> In October 2017, peaceful protests – calling for the use of English in courts and classes – took a turn for the worse when security forces killed dozens of demonstrators and jailed hundreds more. This violence led to the birth of several separatist armed groups that have since killed and kidnapped numerous officials in the Northwest Region and the Southwest Region, the two majority anglophone areas. Abang’s group, the Ambazonia Defense Forces, or ADF, is the largest.
> 
> ...


Just wondering what's wrong with requesting asylum in Britain or France (or, honestly, any other country)? 

Why are we the ones responsible to help all refugees from anywhere for any reason?

Serious question to anyone, just quoted your post because it brought up something I've always wondered about.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Many, many other countries take in more refugees than the US. 

This is a blog post, but it's statistics are cited. 

"The more accepting nations include Australia and most of Western and Northern Europe—Sweden, Austria, Germany, Denmark, Switzerland, Italy, Norway, Finland, Belgium, the Netherlands, and France. The average rate for these countries was 0.7 percent—3.3 times more than the United States. But it also includes many countries that are much less wealthy than the United States. Lebanon, which has accepted an astounding 14 percent of its population in asylees just since 2012, has a per capita GDP of $8,400—7 times less than the United States—but it has accepted asylees at 73 times the rate of the United States.

********* ***** is simply incorrect that other countries don’t accept refugees and asylees, including those who come in unannounced. In fact, four dozen other countries are dealing with more significant asylee populations than the United States is. Some of the difference between the United States and other countries could be explained by UNHCR shifts in methodology in who is counted as a refugee or asylee. As I have explained before, however, the United States has been one of the least welcoming wealthy countries in terms of net total immigration as a share of the country’s population in recent years. America should reform its immigration laws, but it should do so to make them more welcoming, not less."

https://www.cato.org/blog/49-nations-accept-asylees-refugees-higher-rates-america


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Many, many other countries take in more refugees than the US.


They also have many more problems because of that.



Irish Pixie said:


> This is a blog post, but it's statistics are cited.


Then it's just one more opinion posted on a "libertarian think-tank" site.
Let all those who want these "immigrants" adopt them and provide for them.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

The us might have more room for those seeking asylum if we weren't dealing with as many illegally entering.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

The Cato Institute is Right-Center bias, and very high for factual reporting. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/cato-institute/

These are not immigrants, they are refugees (there is a difference) from war torn countries requesting asylum in the US. And the majority are christian.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> The Cato Institute is Right-Center bias, and very high for factual reporting. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/cato-institute/
> 
> These are not immigrants, they are refugees (there is a difference) from war torn countries requesting asylum in the US. And the majority are christian.


Of course there is a difference. That really doesn't make our resource pile any greater. When we are devoting so many resources to illegals it leaves us short on manpower to deal with legitimate applicants.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> These are not immigrants, they are refugees (*there is a difference*) from war torn countries requesting asylum in the US.


There is no *practical* difference.
They can be "refugees" in some other country.



> Irish Pixie said: ↑
> The Cato Institute is Right-Center bias, and very high for factual reporting.https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/cato-institute/


That doesn't change what I said at all.



Bearfootfarm said:


> Then it's just one more opinion posted on a "*libertarian* think-tank" site.





> And the majority are christian.


They can *claim* to be anything but there's no real way to know.
Keeping them out insures they won't cause problems *here*.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The us might have more room for those seeking asylum if we weren't dealing with as many illegally entering.


That's a fair point in the whole immigration problem.
We have to restore order to the process so people that have a desire to become naturalized citizens and/or people like these from Cameroon seeking asylum aren't prevented from doing so by the chaos caused from the flood of *illegal immigration.*


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/cato-institute/


You love to use that site, but still have never shown any logical reason why they should be considered more credible than anyone else, or what makes them an "authority" on anything at all.

https://www.justfactsdaily.com/media-bias-fact-check-incompetent-or-dishonest/

https://www.palmerreport.com/politi...ght-cribbing-its-ratings-from-wikipedia/2342/

""The site is counting on gullible people not fully grasping the difference between accuracy and bias, and it’s certainly counting on its victims never bothering to read the pitiful explanations provided for the ratings it assigns, or seeing the part where it admits the site in question is factually accurate. 
*
In that sense, falling for scam sites like “Media Bias Fact Check” is no different than falling for fake news*."


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## Windswept Hill (Nov 23, 2010)

The affected communities are the same ones that want to string a wire on phone poles around their 'neighborhood' so they can do stuff outside on Sunday.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

How in the devil is the government supposed to keep measles out when the Southern border is overrun by illegals carrying everything from bed bugs to leprosy?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Oxankle said:


> How in the devil is the government supposed to keep measles out when the Southern border is overrun by illegals carrying everything from bed bugs to leprosy?


That's true, and it may have been a factor in the outbreak in California a few years ago, but not in the cases now that made the news in NY. That was the result of legal travel by Americans abroad who came back infected.
You'll have to find another scapegoat this time..........


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

It looks like this one has run it's course.


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