# Critique an arguement please



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

After being in the car about two hours, and me pouring out my heart an soul to my spouse we are about 10 min from the house.....

He asks if I look forward to him coming home from work.
I said sometimes
He said why
I said because you came home. You chose to be with me and the kids.
He says âwowâ. His body language says that is not what he wanted to hear.

He starts discussing the fact that we donât like being around each other.

He mentions the period of time when we were doing projects together, and how we enjoyed each others company then.
I agreed.

I asked him WHY he as not made it a point to start a project with me in months.
He said he just thought of the project idea.

I agreed that we did enjoy each others company when we did projects (listed some of them). 
I asked why we quit doing projects together

I never really got an answerâ¦..but multiple times he repeated himself saying that we donât do projects because they always turn into bad conversations of me bringing up the past.

Which is totally untrue. Why would he say that.?
ANYWAY.

So I try to explain that noâ¦â¦.look at it like a time line. Doing projects together is good, then something happens and we quit doing projectsâ¦â¦identify what that something is, so that we can work it out and if whatever it is starts to creep in, we can identify it, and eliminate it.
I was not condemning, condescending, accusing, bringing up the past nothing.
I was actually âhopefulâ that we were making progressâ¦..

Itâs like he didnât even hear me, he kept repeating himself.

I blow a fuse and scream I donât want to talk anymore
He screams louder.
We get home.


I left and went shopping and we textedâ¦.and he said thiings like âplease stop trying to convince me that I donât love youâ or âwe can talk about the project thing your way, since thatâs the only way you will discuss itâ.(meaning we will talk about why we quit doing projects together and how do we keep from doing that again or seeing the warning signs early and addressing it then)

I told him he was playing evil head games.
He said âwhat are you talking aboutâ
I said âsorry, schools outâ.

It really is hopeless isnât it.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Hard to critique when you weren't a witness to the whole thing.
But you did ask, so I'll try, and try nicely, lol.

If you can spend 2 hours talking in the car or hours on a project, and never once, never, bring up anything that ever occurred in the past......you are the rarest kind of woman on earth, lol.

Yes, the answer "sometimes" was a gut shot.
Us men know we can be a PITA, but we like to think, at least, that you're glad to see we came home anyways. That's one of those situations where complete honesty may not always be the best policy. 
I can see where the rest of that conversation is going downhill.

Next, we get frustrated when we can't come up with an instant answer or solution.
Sometimes there just isn't one.
To look for a reason WHY you don't do projects together, may be to look for something that isn't there, I don't know.
Maybe there is, maybe there really isn't any reason. Just time constraints, didn't think about it, didn't have any real good ideas.....nothing that's really personally directed at you. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Why are you still even engaging with this man? :stars:

I thought you were past that point already ... but if you're still trying to work things out with him, I'd suggest going to a good professional counselor.


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## WhyNot (Jun 21, 2011)

I guess I see something different. LauraZ5...are you expecting him to engage in conversation and discussion as if he were a woman? That is, are you expecting him to relate and absorb and discuss as you do? If so...it's never going to happen. He's his own person.

I said this in another of your threads and I'll say it again...I don't know either of you or the history but what I got from this relation was:

He suddenly realizes you don't love him and is hurt because he loves you.
He retreats because he doesn't know what else to do.
You are dismissing his observations while angry that he doesn't understand yours.

Again...don't know the history so I can only go on this one conversation. I don't know what all you have been going through as far as what you feel like he has done to you or has done to you...but if you want to save your marriage I also suggest counseling and it's not all about how wrong he is.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I doubt if any of the good people in here, have enough experience with arguing to give you a effective or simi professional aguers view point. Good luck tho.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

farmerbrown:
He was having an affair for 8 months in 2011.
He has an addiction.
When I say "bring up the past', he told me to stop 'throwing the past in his face'.
(That means I am not allowed to ask questions, I am not allowed to ask why, I am not allowed to compare anything that is happening right now that looks a lot like what was happening then. I am not allowed to talk about the past, period. Yesterday is gone. Period. I am to completely forget and act like it never happened.)
So since August, when I tell you I have not mentioned the past, I mean, I have not.
I have sat silently, because I am not allowed to even elude to it.

I guess what I am lookin' for is what did "I" do wrong in this conversation.

Willow...I don't know why.
Hope?
Cause I really want it to work?
Cause I am sick in the head.
I don't know...
God help me.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

willow_girl said:


> Why are you still even engaging with this man? :stars:
> 
> I thought you were past that point already ... but if you're still trying to work things out with him, I'd suggest going to a good professional counselor.


I would like to "LIKE" this at least five times!

Laura, I don't know how to gently say this, but, my friend, it's over. Over and done with. Quit beating a dead horse.

(((Hugs)))


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## wildhorse (Oct 22, 2006)

Hugs Laura this post has broke my heart simply because I have stood where you are. Here are a few questions you do not have to answer them on here but do think on them. Does he love you and does he want to work it out? If so why can you not bring up the past he needs to understand that you need this to help you heal. Everyone has free will you can not make anyone love you or stay they must make that choice for themselves if it were forced you wouldn't want it because it would not be real both of y'all need to choose what your individual paths will be and if it is togather work togather.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Willow Girl is right: if you want to have heart to heat talks then get a counselor as a referee. 

I do not think that either one of you is hearing each other, even though you are both using words. A counselor might help you folks understand each other. Your attempts to communicate are NOT! working!!!!!


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

I had a lot of thoughts going through my head and was agreeing with what Why Not wrote then you brought up the having a affair. Yep, right there it is over. At this point you have lost all trust, and there is no going back to the way things used to be. You can convince yourself over and over that things will change and be different if only you try harder and be more but truth is, once they have cheated that will always be in your memory every time you kiss or make love to your spouse. It will always be and come back to the other women. 

If you BOTH really want it to work I would suggest going to counseling and they can give you BOTH the tools to work past the glitch and work on trust and even communication. You need to be able to tell your partner EXACTLY what you want from each other and be honest. Don't name call even when you are angry, because words can never be taken back. They will replay replay replay in your head every time something comes up.


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## Terri in WV (May 10, 2002)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Itâs like he didnât even hear me, he kept repeating himself.


It sounds as if neither one of you are hearing and listening to each other.

I believe like WhyNot, if you want to save the marriage, go to counseling.


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## wildhorse (Oct 22, 2006)

Laura often cheating spouses pick fights and fault find when they feel guilty.


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

wildhorse said:


> Laura often cheating spouses pick fights and fault find when they feel guilty.


That is very true, the last guy I dated was like that. All of a sudden he started picking and picking and getting angry all the time. He would get upset if I was 20 minutes late calling, if I was going to spend time with friends etc. Stupid stuff became an arguement. Turns out he was sexting and texting all these other women and the things he wanted to do to them. :shocked:. It all made sense to me and a lesson learned the hard way I guess.


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## wildhorse (Oct 22, 2006)

My ex swore it was over after I caught him...it never ended he is still seeing her the only thing phat slowed them down is she is still with her husband.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

...

How did you find out Cindi?

...

I've told Laura to poop, or get off the pot ... it was a sincere opinion, and I still have that sincere opinion. 

...


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

glazed said:


> ...
> 
> How did you find out Cindi?
> 
> ...


Glazed, you really do not want to know, just understand that when I saw what I saw it was enough to feel like I had been punched in the gut. I have no idea when he said any thing to me what was truth and what was a lie. I just know that in my heart I cannot go through hurt like that again and it is much better being single then opening up myself to trust again. I am good and it is okay, life has moved on, but it is moving according to my plan and that includes me only. I need to protect myself.


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## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Good advice here, go to a counselor.

Also keep in mind, we cant change others, and it takes determination to change ourselves.


It sucks, been there.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Again, don't know anything about the relationship, the two of you involved etc. Just my feelings on the exchange presented above....

I read that the man is trying to talk to you and he told you a perfectly good and valid answer/reason for why you don't do projects together anymore. You call this answer a "non-answer". IE, there is nothing he can do that is good enough to facilitate communication with you and by you calling that a non-answer it tells him that you consider yourself blameless and above him--which nothing drives a man away faster than that. I see a man actually trying to work something out--and wow, his texts after the blow up are even more effort on his part to work things out. Just because you were "technically" not bringing up the past by being silent doesn't mean he wasn't getting non verbal communication from you that you ARE holding it in front of his face like rubbing a puppies' nose in his poop(doesn't work...). 

Agree with WhyNot and Willow and Ardie and Laura(ha!). Go to a good counselor to referee you (though that is really hard to find a wise person)....and own what is yours to own.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Laura, after rereading your first post, it sounds to me that the two of you don't even like each other anymore!


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Here is a couple examples of a non-answer--in counseling I asked my husband what he meant by "If you leave me I'll shoot myself in the head", and I said hearing those words made me feel sad. The first time he looked off into space and completely ignored the question. The counselor told me to ask again. I did, and my husband said, "you must have misunderstood me, you are too sensitive and your mind embellishes things". There is nothing to work with in that.


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I guess what I am lookin' for is what did "I" do wrong in this conversation.


Wrong? Who's to say, but I can tell you what would have upset my husband in that conversation. You said you were sometimes happy to see him come home - my DH would have asked why only sometimes. Then you said you were happy to see him come home because it meant he chose you - you didn't say it was because you love him, or that he makes you happy, or that the sight of him makes your heart beat faster, or anything along those lines. I think he was hoping for one of those responses and the next part of his conversation was him letting you know that he doesn't feel loved. I personally couldn't love a person if they treated me like he had treated you, so I am not saying you did something wrong, but if you do love him (and you are both trying to make this work) I think you need to let him know.

The next bit is pure speculation, but I would imagine he stopped doing projects with you when he started cheating on you and now he will not start a project because it causes you to talk to each other and he feels you will bring up the past.

I have long suspected that the only marriages that survive betrayal are the ones where the hurt party pretends to completely forgive and forget. I do not know if that means they finally get answers 20 years down the line, or if by then they really have forgiven (I cannot imagine ever forgetting).


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## dkhern (Nov 30, 2012)

i agree w/mistletoad also imo when you said sometimes and he asked why you said because you chose to be w/me and kids you brought up the past.. what is the reverse implication he chooses the mistress????


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## WhyNot (Jun 21, 2011)

I'll add to mine now that I know more about the situation.

I still think you guys need to go to counseling and that you, LauraZ5, should also have private, possibly group, counseling....because...well because of what went on and the fact that you are still in the relationship and apparently seem to think there is something to salvage...you need an outlet with other people that have or are going through the same thing. You need support.

Personally, I have never been woman enough to get over or continue to try or salvage a relationship where a man has cheated on me. You are to be commended for not immediately taking flight and to fight for your relationship and family. In my opinion. I would have turned tail long ago...there would have been no looking back and no trying again. I'd like to think I'm a different person now but I don't know about that. By the time I put the sort of trust into someone that allows for a closer than friends relationship, betraying that trust is the worst thing a person can do to me no matter how long I have known or had a relationship with them.

I also still stand by my original observations, no matter how much you may not want to see them, they are there. Now knowing about the cheating it even makes more sense to me. Trying to see things from all points of view can be difficult when you are in a situation. He knows he did wrong. At the end of the day he is home. At the end of the day he chose his family and no matter what he may outwardly show he knows he hurt you and put his family in jeopardy.

IMO you two need to figure out a way to connect on a personal level aside from familial obligations and children and find a way to get past this...not forgt it because you will never forget it...but get past it and start growing together again.

If that is what you want, if you want him and want your family together...counseling and reconnecting and talking and UNDERSTANDING will do it. And if not then you at least know you did everything possible that you could do to salvage it.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

You want to forget, he wants to forget but you won't let either of you, forget. You have to forgive before you can forget. He knows he was wrong but he is not the one to have to forgive, you do. I am not saying you have to forgive, or forget, or if you can, ever. You need help and tools, if, you ever can or will....James


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## wildhorse (Oct 22, 2006)

In order for y'all to move on both of you need to own your parts.He needs to admit that yes he indeed strayed and you need to find out why so you will know your part in his decision to stray. Brutal honesty is painful but it is necessary.


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## Centralilrookie (Jul 12, 2012)

Just a few thoughts..... 1. Women process thoughts and come up with questions much quicker than most us men. We may able to answer a couple of questions off the top of our head, the next 5 are going no where. 2. The pain of infidelity is like no other. Questions consume you, answers evade him. 3. They never crown a winner of an argument. 4. If you both want this to work, get real professional help. Good luck to you !


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Amazing awesome folks you are.
Thank you so much for your honest opinions!!

Tell me this:

When I said "forever till death do we part" I meant it.
Never once have I ever thought or 'prepped' for being on my own.

Now I am 47 years old. No education (enrolled in college full time Jan-May 13)
Unemployeed watitress (That's what I have done for 30 years)
About 100.00 in savings.
About 20K in debt
2 Jack Russell Terriers
3 Adult children, all 3 in college. One out of state the other two in state.

The only insurance I have is through my spouse, at his company. (kids too)
I have no family to go to.
I have 2 friends, and I cannot stay with them.

IF today is the day where I throw my arms up in the air and say "eff it".....
Now what?

Where do used up old nags like me go when their husbands kick them to the curb? Are they homeless? Do shelters take them? How do they get on their feet?


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

If you can't discuss the past, there's no way to work through your issues over it, which means it will never be moved on from. So what's the point in talking at all? Doesn't seem like it will get you anywhere, so it's a waste of your time and emotion.

None of your kids would be willing to get an apartment with you? There are a ton of women's shelters out there which only take women and children. Those organizations are usually set up to get you where you need to be ASAP. You move in, they set you up with work clothes (if you need them) and other things, and you get a job and start raising money to get yourself on your feet. The dogs do complicate things though. Most shelters do not accept animals. Sounds to me like you need to get a job, and when you've got enough money in the next month or so, find yourself an apartment and move on.

When you said "I do", you meant your vows. He obviously didn't. So you can stick by that as long as you want, but why stay devoted to someone who isn't devoted to you?


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

Laura, what I believe your husband is trying to ask is whether or not you still feel the passion. Whether, by his coming home, you are as excited as you once were to see him. I don't know what occurred in the past between the two of you, but it does seem that things have hit this horribly rocky stretch.

I'll try to put myself in your husband's shoes, though I am not him. He is looking for excitement. He is looking for the girl he met so many years ago. He is unhappy with his current situation. He seems to love you, as he has not left, but he doesn't love the way things are.

He is self-evaluating as best he can. His questions aren't meant to necessarily be the issues he has (any more than it is when a girl asks them) but more so to express a myriad of conflicting feelings and emotions. 

I sincerely hope the two of you work things out, if it's what you want. However, you might find that there are terrific people out there, just around the corner... and although it's a rocky path fraught with peril, you could find yourself immensely happier in the long run to let this relationship die a natural death and move on to that somebody new.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Willow...I don't know why.
> Hope?
> Cause I really want it to work?
> Cause I am sick in the head.
> ...


You've been married a long time ... you have kids together. 
Don't beat yourself up for trying to make it work. 
It sounds like he is trying, too, but so many walls have been built up, I don't think you're going to be able to blast through them without some assistance.
Please ask him to try counseling with you.
Mental health always has been one of my favorite do-it-yourself projects ... but there are times when it really pays to hire a professional.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2012)

You ask the most uniformly dysfunctional group of people gathered together in one spot on earth for advise how to save or toss your marriage?? For real? Can't nobody here tell you what you want to do. If you want to stay, stay. If you want to go, go. Take control of your life. It's not the ST folks, or even God who will make your choice. It's yo. Do it, don't do it. Whatever. Its your choice, only you can make it, and only you will live with the consequences. You're married, living with your husband, but you say you're unhappy. Give him the address of this forum and your username, let him see how you present him to us. He'll leave. It ain't nearly as much fun being single as some people want to think it is. Whatever though. Power to ya.

Think twice or 3 times about some of the advise you've gotten. Misery loves company, and you've been flirting with it a long time. God only knows why.


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## Narshalla (Sep 11, 2008)

Laura, I think that you might be correct that something changed, and that is why he is no longer doing projects with you.

One thing to think about, though -- he might actually know the reason why he stopped doing projects with you. He really might not have any clue, and if he doesn't he'll have to figure it out on his own.

Other than that, I have to agree, the two of you need professional counseling.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> farmerbrown:
> He was having an affair for 8 months in 2011.
> He has an addiction.
> When I say "bring up the past', he told me to stop 'throwing the past in his face'.
> ...



Oh, I see, sorry, I didn't know an affair was part of that "past". That's a big difference from leaving socks on the floor or forgetting to take out the garbage.:bash:
IF y'all want it to work out, others have already gave you great advice.



Laura Zone 5 said:


> Amazing awesome folks you are.
> Thank you so much for your honest opinions!!
> 
> Tell me this:
> ...



Now THIS is a question I can answer. lol.
I sincerely doubt you're a "used up old nag". Low self esteem, which an affair will do, and prone to exaggeration? Yeah, maybe, but that's fixable, lol.
Your description is almost identical to my wife when i met her, only you're a little younger and in a little better shape, physically. She couldn't do any waitress work anymore due to an injury.
She's beautiful and we're both happier than we've each been in a long, long time.
You just never know what the future holds until you step through it.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

zong said:


> You ask the most uniformly dysfunctional group of people gathered together in one spot on earth for advise how to save or toss your marriage?? For real?


Well doll, who is "functional"?
Would that be the Pastor/Counselor I saw that told me to shut up, pray and do whatever he wants, however he wants, whenever he wants, and I am to say nothing?
You tell me who is 'functional', and I assure you, I will look them up and seek their counsel.
Quite frankly, the folks here on ST have been amazing to me. I feel 'safe' here, because of how they have treated me.
I have felt more welcome here than I have in many churches.....



> Can't nobody here tell you what you want to do. If you want to stay, stay. If you want to go, go. Take control of your life. It's not the ST folks, or even God who will make your choice.


I am one who likes to hear opinions and ideas from all different folks. 
I can glean, discard, or piece together bits and come to my own conclusions.
I'm a little lost right now, and just groping for direction. 
I fully expected this kind of response from you, and I appreciate it.
You are being honest!


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2012)

Think anything you want to think. If you mean "everybody except Zong" just say so. Or send me a PM telling me that you're just trolling for a reason to slam me. Actually, that post probably is good enough. Still, you ask, I answer. Nobody here will be more honest with you than I am. You want to pick and choose what you hear, go ahead. It's no skin off my nose. I ain't got to ask people should I stay or should I go. I vaguely remember being 47. Prime of life. You're way too full of yourself to take any counsel anyway. No warnings, no hateful. Just honesty. Not my fault, nor my problem if you can't handle it. Step outside your ego for a minute. read my post, read yours. Who is really hateful? You are your own worst enemy. Not me. Read every reply to you on this thread. I'm being honest with you. Who else is? I'm being more honest with you than you are with yourself.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

If I have done something to you that has created this annamosity, forgive me....


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2012)

Right. I tell you the truth, you see it as an attack. Suppose I made hundreds of posts in a singles forum about how worthless my wife was, then, ask what I should do. If you had any integrity, you'd say something along the line of "Take it up with her, not with us, and you're in charge of your life, not us. Do what you think is right, no reason to ask strangers" And you'd be right in saying that. But, I make the exact same response to the exact same question, and its hateful and filled with animosity?? why? because I don't say "you're right"? I don't know if you're right or not. I know that you complain a lot. I know that nobody here can tell you what to do. I know nobody here knows how you feel or exactly your circumstances. So, I tell the truth to you. If the truth is hateful to you, tough. I can't very well be sorry that I'm an honest person. I'd whole lot rather see an ugly truth than a pretty lie. Everybody had, once they're grownup.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2012)

How is "Take control of your life/it's your choice" somehow worse advise, or more hateful than "You may be right Laura"? You may be right, Laura is no advise at all, and of no use. On the other hand, realizing that its your choice to make, and only you can make it is the only *good* advise I see in this thread. So, the only *good* advise is hateful, but all the "I don't know" and "you go girl" advise is heartfelt, and worthwhile?? I'd rather have a friend who told me the truth than 30 friends who blow smoke up my hiney. No matter what or when, sooner or later you'll have to make your own choices and live with them. Sound advise. One day you'll look back and realize that of all the people who answered this thread, I was one who gave you anything rational to look at. So, call it hate, or whatever you want. I been around way too long to not recognize reality when I see it. *It's your call*, no matter what. Nothing else matters.
For what it's worth, I've had occasion to hate the truth too. From time to time.


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## Scott SW Ohio (Sep 20, 2003)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Now I am 47 years old. No education (enrolled in college full time Jan-May 13)
> Unemployeed watitress (That's what I have done for 30 years)
> About 100.00 in savings.
> About 20K in debt
> ...


Laura, I am sorry things are not going well for you. 

I have not seen such hard times as you, but will offer a few ideas from my own experience. The circumstances you list are daunting, but it seems to me that you have two decisions to make which you need to consider separately. First, do you want to stay with him or be away from him? Second, if you decide to stick with him, how can you put your relationship back on a firm footing - or, if you decide to leave him, how do you make it work financially and logistically?

Decide one, and then work on figuring out the other. Mixed together, they present too many variables and you end up locked in indecision and doing nothing, or making an impulsive decision when the next emotional flare-up happens. I think you can't just have a day when you throw up your hands and leave. You have to have decided to end your relationship, and you have to have thought your way through next steps.

Sorry, I expect you have shared more details in previous posts but I don't know as much of your history as others here. But have you talked to a divorce attorney? If you decide to end your marriage it shouldn't mean you hit the road with nothing. You should get a share of assets, or at least a division of debt, and maybe spousal support. And as other posters say, 47 is still young. My wife is ten years past that and she still is capable and gorgeous. You can start over, if you have to.

None of the above is meant to be critical. I really hope things get better for you soon.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Scott SW Ohio said:


> Laura, I am sorry things are not going well for you.
> 
> I have not seen such hard times as you, but will offer a few ideas from my own experience. The circumstances you list are daunting, but it seems to me that you have two decisions to make which you need to consider separately. First, do you want to stay with him or be away from him? Second, if you decide to stick with him, how can you put your relationship back on a firm footing - or, if you decide to leave him, how do you make it work financially and logistically?
> 
> ...


Scott has a great point Have you discussed the situation with an attorney and do you truly know what your assets are??


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

@Laura ~ you've said addiction a few times... what's the guy addicted to? Chrystal methamphetamine? (you'z got'z to say your piece if you want the genteman's opinion...) Don' cop' out' now eitha' sista girl...  You brought it up ~ ye' cain't give half the story without givin' the whole one. So what is the addiction?


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

#[email protected] ~ Use the million dollar rule: If, suddenly and unexpectedly, you were bequeathed a million dollars free of any tax burden, would you remain? If the answer is Yes, I wish you well in your endeavors and I hope you resolve things with the hubby. If the answer however was No, then you are simply shkeered about altering your lifes' financial circumstances. I still feel bad for things for you, but really it's on yourself at that point. You may still complain to your hearts' content, but it's not going to get you where you're hoping to go =/'


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

I don't recall you saying what your husband's addition is but it seems to weigh heavily on you. As far as leaving I have a feeling that you are afraid of being financially destitute given your post previously. Personally I would speak with an attorney and see what is a reasonable expectation of a division of assets and then you will have a better understanding. I don't think you will be destitute if you were to leave.

As far as the argument I think you both are talking but are not saying what the other needs to hear. A counselor could help. I go by the rule of am I a better person with him or with out him. Only you can decide that.

Cheating is a deal breaker for me so I would have already made the choice to leave. You have to decide how much harm staying is doing to your psyche and is all the turmoil you are going through worth it. In reading your posts I sense that you have made your choice but are afraid to follow through with the decision.

I am afraid that sitting on the fence only leaves splinters in your rear and prolongs the inevitable. This is going to drive you nuts as I doubt you will ever know why he chose to have an affair. He isn't going to tell you and may not know himself. Likely had nothing to do with you and every thing to do with his own choices. Now you have to decide how much harm staying is doing to you.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Laura, I am just sending you a big hug!


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> You ask the most uniformly dysfunctional group of people gathered together in one spot on earth for advise how to save or toss your marriage?? For real?


Well, there is _that_! :hysterical:


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Where do used up old nags like me go when their husbands kick them to the curb? Are they homeless? Do shelters take them? How do they get on their feet?


 Laura, it takes months to evict someone in most states, and weeks before the utilities are turned off. Given the circumstances, it might be better if he leaves than if you do. Because, you would have a little bit of time to continue looking for work.

Also, if he leaves you might get food stamps or other assistance: a co-worker did just that when she was separated from her husband. Happily they got back together again: the point is that until he returned she was able to eat and feed their 4 kids. That is what public assistance is FOR! If you have little to no income I bet you would qualify as well.

And, yes, some women do end up in homeless shelters, *IF* they leave! So you shouldn't be the one to leave. Since he is employed, perhaps he should be the one to have to leave and put down first and last months rent, KWIM? You would still be broke, but you would have a roof over your head, utilities, and the food in the cupboards for a month or three.

Lastly, I would suggest that you try to start an account in your name only, in a different bank. Right now that usually means $200 to open the account but then you can withdraw money almost immediately. That way, if he decides to leave, he does not leave you with 0 dollars to eat off of.


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## awhobert7 (Jun 1, 2002)

Once you lose trust it is over. Any relationship is based on trust, lose it it's over. I was married 30 years never wanted to stray , even turned down offers. loved my wife that much. If you work it out it will take years.


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## Mooselover (May 4, 2009)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> After being in the car about two hours, and me pouring out my heart an soul to my spouse we are about 10 min from the house.....
> 
> He asks if I look forward to him coming home from work.
> I said sometimes
> ...


 
.....up till the 'screaming' part, i would have sweared you were in my life 3.5 years ago!! i don't scream and that's the only way i knew it wasn't me speaking these words. i know what i did but that might not work for you or anyone else. just wanna say, i'm sending you many,many moose-hearts and prayers and support for whatever you choose~ML~


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

I know a lot of good, solid marriages that survived infedility. It wasn't easy for them, ti rode on commitment. I agree you both need to do brutal honesty and own your own parts on WHY the infedilty happened. Fix that issue. It will take professional help to get through the emotional stuff without blood.

When I found myself single and alone these are the scriptures a friend gave to me. They had been given to her when she was in my shoes 10 years before. 

Hosea 2:19 Isiah 54:5


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Scott SW Ohio:

I called a few attorneys back in 2011, they all wanted 1000.00 down, just to sit down and chat, and the total bill was going to be between 2-3K, that is if no one's fights or disputes.

I know you can "do it yourself" by printing off papers that can be downloaded from the county's court website. That's less than 200.00.

I have told him, several times, I think we (he and I) need a mediator, someone unbiased in the middle that can help us. Counseling.
He has not picked up the phone and called anyone.
To me that says "he's really not interested" OR "we don't need one because they might blame him for something".

He loved the Pastor / Counselor we saw Sept 11-Dec 11. 
That man patted him on the back and gave him the atta-boy every time we went in.
And he was very down on me......
When things were revealed in March 12 (the truth) and I called that Pastor / Counselor and told him what my spouse had told and showed me?
The pastor / counselor said (via email he never called me) 
"Get this book and read though it, it will help".
I responded with "is there a group, or is there a place outside the church that deals with this issue, so that I can talk to someone, work thought this, something?
Honest to God, the pastor / counselors response was:
"She is having a pity party, just read the book I recommended, and she will be fine".

I do have a call into another counselor at another church, and will get back with her after Tuesday. I will start going as soon as I can.

Scott, for 7 years leading up to Aug 2011, I didn't talk to him.
What I mean by that is for 7 years, I never once mentioned anything that could upset him.
We never, ever talked about relationship stuff. Never.
We talked about the kids, work, the weather, conversations you would expect two room mates to have.
We never fought. I mean, never.
See years before that I would go to him when he would do something that hurt my feelings etc. 
I would try to talk about his hopes and dreams and future plans. That would start a fight. So I stopped. 
So for 7 years, we never fought because I never talked to him about anything deeper than the weather. 
He liked it that way. 
He never tried to talk to me never, no not ever once.
I NEVER, I mean never, brought up ANYTHING about me (wants, desires, hopes, fears, etc).
Never not once for 7 solid years.
I gave him everything.....clean house, clean laundry, good home cooked meals, took care of the bills, worked 1-3 jobs, raised and home schooled amazing kids, dove into everything he wanted to do (race motorcycles, have riding parties, etc).
I truly thought he was happy.
He sure acted like it.

Since Aug 2011......clearly we saw the need to communicate.
At first we were doing ok.
Until I found out he will still keeping secrets. Still lying to me.
March 2012

Now every time we talk it turns out bad.
The common denominator?
Me.
AS SOON as I inject my thoughts, or my feelings or my heart, or anything me.....
He goes off the deep end.
The conversation spirals into the toilet.

So, I told him yesterday morning, that no longer would I mention, bring up or hint at me.
Our conversations will all be conducted in his timing, his way to his end. 
Just like it was for those 7 years prior to 2011.
We never fought, because I never ever mentioned one thing about me, my heart, my dreams, my fears, etc.

He rolled his eyes at me.

Biblically I am not allowed to file for divorce. 
But I am permitted separation.
I know if we 'separate' he will not only never come back / work on the relationship, he will find some trashy chick like he did before. (I know, says a lot about me huh?)

I just want someone to take my hand and say "it's gonna b ok, lemme show you the way".
Someone to give me a hug and say "I gottcha, you're gonna be ok".
Someone to smile in my face and say "I care."

I can't say "i wish I had my old life back" because NOW I know it was all a big fat lie.
What I thought was, was not.....

And if I hit the lotto? 1 million?
(shallow party of one)
*I would not tell anyone. *
I would pay off the house and the bills.
Load one prepaid Visa with 10.000.00 in my name.
I would divide up the rest between the three kids. Their name only.


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## mickm (Jul 23, 2010)

Get some counseling, even if he wont.

Away from any church.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

mickm said:


> Get some counseling, even if he wont.
> 
> Away from any church.


Absolutely. I do not think that couples counseling is what you need at the moment: you need somebody who will help *YOU* to decide what *YOU* need and want. How can anybody guide you unless they know what direction and/or goal you are to be guided to? If that makes sense.

You know that you are living in a situation that is bad for you, but you stay. Laura, there are people who can help you with HOW to do what you have decided to do, but only you can decide WHAT you are going to do!

It is a huge decision, and you are still looking at the pro's and con's of everything. A counselor might help you gain focus, there.

For myself, I have always found it helpful to write down a list of pros and a list of cons. I am a very visual person and it helps me to understand the situation, but that is just me. My DD finds it more helpful to talk over the pros and cons with a friend. Whatever. The point is, only you can decide the direction you are going to go in. AFTER that decision there will be people who CAN guide you, but not before!

Laura, if a counselor can help you make up your mind, then go! As you havve said, separation is allowed in the church. Is that what you want? You have talked to divorce lawyers. Is that what you want? You have talked with marriage counselors. Is that what you want? There is a place called alanon or narcanon that will help you deal with his addiction, and it is free. But, is it what you want?

You cannot make another adult change his behavior. That is not going to happen. Looking at him as he is: what do you want? 

Only then can you go further.


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## Scott SW Ohio (Sep 20, 2003)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Biblically I am not allowed to file for divorce.
> But I am permitted separation.
> I know if we 'separate' he will not only never come back / work on the relationship, he will find some trashy chick like he did before. (I know, says a lot about me huh?)
> 
> ...


Well, I'll say it - it's gonna be OK. A whole lot of us here care about you, even if we do not know you well, and want to see you find your happy ending.

But you have ruled out divorce due to the requirements of your faith, and that's the direction I would go if I were in your place, so I can't give you the kind of advice you are looking for. I know that people can find peace even in worse circumstances than yours, through acceptance rather than change, and I wish that for you.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> After being in the car about two hours, and me pouring out my heart an soul to my spouse we are about 10 min from the house.....
> 
> He asks if I look forward to him coming home from work.
> I said sometimes
> ...


Let's stop right here. Pour out your heart to God, not your spouse. He cannot understand it. He is not God. He doesn't have the ability to know what is deep in your heart even if you tell him. He has his own wounds to deal with.

And the correct answer is to tell him that you love it when he comes home from work. You love being with him. He is your husband, your mate, your beloved. You don't have to feel that. Feelings are not love. Love is a commitment. God so loved.... that He gave. Do the same thing. Don't pour out your hurts to your spouse. Pour out your love. It is not an emotion. it is a commitment. 

It hurt God to give his Son for you and I and all the world. It hurt Jesus to hang on the cross. But he did it anyway because that is who He is inside. Be who He is inside. If you don't feel it, then pretend you do.....walk by faith. Do what is right because it is right. And let Jesus heal your heart and fill it with love for your spouse.

Be still and know that He is God. Don't open your mouth and throw words that your spouse cannot receive. Pour out those words to the Lord. Just be a helpmete and a love mate to your spouse. Let your acceptance, your holiness, your fulfillment come from the Lord. The hardest thing to control in life is your own tongue. I know that I need to learn to control mine more. We all do. 

Believe it or not, it is not up to your spouse to keep you content, cared for, joyful. That is the job of your savior. Don't expect it from the spouse. Your life is in Him, not in the spouse. Your joy, peace, hope, contentment comes from Him. You are a help mete to the spouse. He is not your God. 

And that is what caused the argument. The "pouring out of your heart" problems are too big for your husband to understand, to fix, or even to deal with. All he hears is you don't love him, he isn't good enough, and that you are putting him down. That is all he has the ability to hear. He is a frail human, just like the rest of us. That isn't what you are saying, but it is what he hears. Ask men. They hear "FAILURE" when women complain. They don't have the ability to hear other things because they were made to rule and reign in the garden. So when something is wrong, all they hear is a put down. They feel like an unloved failure. 

Hold up you husband. Tell him all you love about him. Don't complain. Don't nag. Give all that to Jesus. Look for your joy in Jesus. Worship more. Get alone and praise with all your heart and soul. Sing to the Lord. Let Him fill your heart. Don't expect it from your husband. It is not his job to give that to you. He cannot do it.


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## acde (Jul 25, 2011)

You won't get a divorce because of the way your church explained the bibles view point. which, by the way is the same church that is in your husbands corner after having an affair and engaging in addictions. Seek out a different religion that translates the bible more accurately. if money is the reason you are staying, squirrel yours away. A good attorney will get you spousal support even through a seperation. 
A good friend will tell you what you need to hear. I agree with zong on this one.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Thing is, every protestant church has their own interpretation of marital separation, divorce and remarriage. My X was an expert on finding us a new church to fit HIS view as soon as a pastor caught on to his BS. This continued for years right up before divorce was final and he was introducing the Other Woman as The One God REALLY intended to be his Wife.

She divorced hers to have mine. They have a church that accepts this as their spiritual truth. Whatever.

Laura5, your issues are too complicated and too emo, and too wrapped in religious lies for us relationship rejects of ST to be of real help in SAVING your marriage. We can help you WALK AWAY.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

I say forget the religious professionals--too often they are nothing more than "fancy ladies"--and I say that out of being in the biz. Seek out the person who most personifies Jesus Christ and talk with them. 

And regarding Zong's comment *we* are all relationship idiots and have no cred to share--no. BIG FAT NO

NONE of us are perfect, or arrived, we are all works in progress. One can learn a lot form folks who have made mistakes--BIG mistakes--and have the guts to self examine and learn, and sure most often the answer still is "I dont' know"--humility is the first step in understanding. But I think this place is a good space to ask, relatively "safely", if nothing more to get a hug as Shanzone sez. Pretty cool if ya ask me.


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## Raven12 (Mar 5, 2011)

zong said:


> You ask the most uniformly dysfunctional group of people gathered together in one spot on earth for advise how to save or toss your marriage?? For real? Can't nobody here tell you what you want to do. If you want to stay, stay. If you want to go, go. Take control of your life. It's not the ST folks, or even God who will make your choice. It's yo. Do it, don't do it. Whatever. Its your choice, only you can make it, and only you will live with the consequences. You're married, living with your husband, but you say you're unhappy. Give him the address of this forum and your username, let him see how you present him to us. He'll leave. It ain't nearly as much fun being single as some people want to think it is. Whatever though. Power to ya.
> 
> Think twice or 3 times about some of the advise you've gotten. Misery loves company, and you've been flirting with it a long time. God only knows why.


I'm shocked. Zong, just when you think it can't get any crazier in here, it does tenfold.


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## Saffron (May 24, 2006)

> Biblically I am not allowed to file for divorce.
> But I am permitted separation.
> I know if we 'separate' he will not only never come back / work on the relationship, he will find some trashy chick like he did before. (I know, says a lot about me huh?)


Your religion is based on the Old Testament? 

Because God doesn't tell women to be a doormat.

Only under OT laws was D forbidden to women. Not under the NT laws.

Anyways, not to get into religious discussion:

This is the choice that you make and you must make the choice that is right for you and any minor children for which you are responsible. You are very religious, so spend time in prayer for guidance, and understand that God does lead people towards divorce, He also says not to be unequally yoked, remember.
Everything will be okay; make the decisions that you feel are right for you, your children, and your situation.


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## pamda (Oct 14, 2004)

mekasmom said:


> Let's stop right here. Pour out your heart to God, not your spouse. He cannot understand it. He is not God. He doesn't have the ability to know what is deep in your heart even if you tell him. He has his own wounds to deal with.
> 
> And the correct answer is to tell him that you love it when he comes home from work. You love being with him. He is your husband, your mate, your beloved. You don't have to feel that. Feelings are not love. Love is a commitment. God so loved.... that He gave. Do the same thing. Don't pour out your hurts to your spouse. Pour out your love. It is not an emotion. it is a commitment.
> 
> ...


 

She can no longer hold up her husband..he has already gone away from her in cheating..she no longer in any way owes him the honor. She owes herself the freedom to move forward, as herself, and I truely feel that God would approve.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Amazing awesome folks you are.
> Thank you so much for your honest opinions!!
> 
> Tell me this:
> ...


....................I have a stoopid question........Instead of trying to reconstitute your mirrage prior too the cheating , Why , Simply don't both of you'll just become......FRIENDS ? No arguing , no fussing , just let each other alone and get along like you were college room mates , shacking up and maybe a little UNplanned sex every now and then ? This based upon the assumption that either can see others should you find someone that interests you . This will allow Time to heal some of the emotional pain , remove the "US" from the equation and replace it with.......Me and You ! , fordy


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

I was kind of silly in an earlier post about this, but my thoughts are: Without knowing what the addiction is, it's hard to know how this affects the relationship. I had jokingly asked if it was Crystal Meth (who knows, it could be), but maybe it's tobacco, or Facebook, or video games, or Alcohol, or P#rn. Really it could be just about anything. Does your husband see his addiction as being an addiction? This would be helpful info in any advice.

Also, you mentioned pouring your heart out to him for two hours just prior to the explosion. Sometimes a person, through no fault of their own, can pick and poke at another relentlessly. To them, it's not picking or poking though... it's simply trying to sort out things in their head. In this case though, nerves could have already been frayed, especially if the conversation was a difficult topic.

I believe what your husband was trying to ask you when he was talking about how you felt when you came home is whether the fire still burned within you that once did - whether you still felt the same intense passion, or whether the two of you were merely getting by. People cheat for a wide variety of reasons. Sometimes it's as simple as they are missing something at home, oftentimes it's to put an exclamation point on the end of what has been a terrible relationship and they're ready to move forward. I hope that's not the case with y'all though.

In terms of moving forward, one thing to keep in mind is that you cannot cannot cannot change him... but you ~can~ change yourself. Getting with an attorney is a good idea, but it's also something to only consider once you're ready to pull the trigger ~ they're expensive, it rarely costs what they say it will, and in many instances you're left with an outcome not to your liking. Perhaps in the meantime get back into school, even if only for a trade. Or, look into a part time job that takes you away from the house. Or get to the gym or go walking. The thoughts will roll through your head like a broken record, but eventually they'll subside. Still, the only way things will get better is if you put things into motion.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

pamda said:


> She can no longer hold up her husband..he has already gone away from her in cheating..she no longer in any way owes him the honor. She owes herself the freedom to move forward, as herself, and I truely feel that God would approve.


She cannot get from her husband what she wants him to give her. He can't do it. He has no idea what she is even saying. She has to get that from her savior.
I cannot even imagine the pain that a cheating spouse would cause your heart. It must be the most horrible thing to ever have happen in your life. I've seen marriages fall apart because people just cannot get by that. It is such a horrible hurt. 
But I do know that the husband cannot heal her heart. And he cannot give her the total love, security, hope and peace she wants. Only her Lord can do that. And this same type of problem will follow anyone into a second marriage if people don't learn to get their needs and aspirations met from the Holy Spirit. Divorce will not solve the problem because it is an internal problem of needing to learn where your source is. Men are frail. They are not God.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Seek out the person who most personifies Jesus Christ and talk with them.


For some reason, this made me think of a T-shirt DBF has ... it has a picture of the devil on the front with the words, "God is busy ... May I help you?" :hysterical:


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

willow_girl said:


> For some reason, this made me think of a T-shirt DBF has ... it has a picture of the devil on the front with the words, "God is busy ... May I help you?" :hysterical:


 totally why I love you Willow!!!ound:


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I lurve you too, Celeste. 

OK, now I'll be serious for a moment ...



> Scott, for 7 years leading up to Aug 2011, I didn't talk to him.
> What I mean by that is for 7 years, I never once mentioned anything that could upset him.
> We never, ever talked about relationship stuff. Never.
> We talked about the kids, work, the weather, conversations you would expect two room mates to have.
> ...


I do not see how loving, joyful intimacy could be possible under those circumstances, and in its absence, most marriages are doomed. The French say, "When sex leaves a marriage, it usually goes elsewhere," and I'm wondering if that's what happened here. 

Not that I'm blaming Laura ... I couldn't bring myself to have sex with a man under those circumstances. No way, no how ... I don't mate in captivity ... :hysterical:

Switching gears: Here are a few things I know about men, based on my observations over the past 30 or so years. If the conclusions I've reached are faulty, I'm sure the guys here will set me straight. 

As men among men, in the rough-and-tumble of the world, men constantly are striving to be the top dog ... or enduring the humiliation of knowing they're _not_. A man's home is his refuge from this struggle ... maybe his only refuge.

I think every man longs for his wife to sincerely love and respect him for who he is, in spite of his faults. When they approach their wives for affection, men want to be received with open arms and a smile. 

But ... what if a man doesn't deserve it? What if he's behaved badly? I don't have an answer to that. How do you make love stay? Gee, wish I knew. How do you get from _here_ to _there_ in your relationship, given your history and a lot of water under the bridge? Dunno. My solution always has been to start over with a new partner ... so someone else will have to answer those questions.

But you know that I wish you the very best, Laura!


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## tambo (Mar 28, 2003)

http://www.marriagetoday.com/ Hugs to you Laura.


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

Here is the question of the day then??? 

Why would a guy cheat on you in the first place when you have never denied him sex, and I mean any time any place and dang good sex? Please explain that one to me?


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

i must have missed that part where she said she gave him sex whenever he wanted it.course that's none of our business i mean but if they didn't talk at all sex would be as boring as watching paint dry .course i only faintly recall it myself. ~Georgia.


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

Good one Georgia.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

cindilu said:


> Here is the question of the day then???
> 
> Why would a guy cheat on you in the first place when you have never denied him sex, and I mean any time any place and dang good sex? Please explain that one to me?


Oh Good Lord, the list is endless. Money, advancement in job, social status, she's better looking, more intelligent, etc.

Men or women don't need a reason outside of sex to cheat, they cheat because they CHOOSE to. Once they decide to do so, the reason is irrelevant. 

In my mind there is no going back. NEVER. I could never sleep with a man who had stepped out after marriage. NEVER. I could never trust him and every time I looked at him I would be tempted to throw up on his shoes.

BTDT. Got a divorce, an education, a great job and a nanny and moved ON.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Laura Zone 5, do you have assess to a joint saving or checking account? Take some money and hire a good attorney!

Move on! Quit rehashing this.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

cindilu said:


> Here is the question of the day then???
> 
> Why would a guy cheat on you in the first place when you have never denied him sex, and I mean any time any place and dang good sex? Please explain that one to me?


It is important to make a man feel that home is a good place to be at. If they are always accepted, loved, adored, then they don't have the need to find that anywhere else.They need to be excited to get home because that is where they are "the man". It shouldn't be a place where they feel they are always "not good enough". Men are usually very faithful at heart. They are kind of "dog like" in that way. But sometimes women don't know that men cannot be what they want them to be. They just don't have the ability to be their everything. Women were created to be the helpmete. Men were not. 
God is our source. We are our husband's helpmete. It can't be the other way around or else it is out of order and problems arise. It's just an issue of creation. None of us can be what we are not created to be.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

cindilu said:


> Here is the question of the day then???
> 
> Why would a guy cheat on you in the first place when you have never denied him sex, and I mean any time any place and dang good sex? Please explain that one to me?


There are men who will cheat just because they want to, and because they think it will be fun.

There are women who will do the same thing!

And, may they meet and fall in love and then yell at each other for the rest of their lives!!!!!!


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

The problem arises when a man fails to cherish his wife, feed her and care for her in the ways that meet her needs. She becomes overhwelmed, empty and can no longer give to him.

If people want to live by the church rules then they need to live by ALL of them, men need to hold up their end of the rules, too, not half, leaving the rest of the rules to the ways of the world.

This isn't Laura's problem or is her husband's. It the couple's problem and it was there long before he strayed. Stay or go, there is still brutal internal work to do.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Laura said:


> Stay or go, there is still brutal internal work to do.


There is so much pain in a covenant under stress. I am so sorry to anyone who going through this anywhere. May God grant everyone peace and heal their hearts.


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

Laura I am sorry you are going through this still. I know how difficult the decision is to leave. I'll also say that I am happier than I have ever been right now...4 months after leaving. 

It does say in the Bible that infidelity is the only valid reason for divorce...so I think you're good.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

mekasmom said:


> It is important to make a man feel that home is a good place to be at. If they are always accepted, loved, adored, then they don't have the need to find that anywhere else.They need to be excited to get home because that is where they are "the man". It shouldn't be a place where they feel they are always "not good enough". *Men are usually very faithful at heart. *They are kind of "dog like" in that way. But sometimes women don't know that men cannot be what they want them to be. They just don't have the ability to be their everything. Women were created to be the helpmete. Men were not.


You had me till you wrote "men are usually very faithful at heart".
HUMANS (men and women alike) are bent towards sin.....
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Humans (men and women) are not "basically good". They are wrecked from conception. That I get. 
Men are to love their wives as Christ loved the church.
See......'religion' only keys in on the "woman submit part'.....and they TOTALLY forget the whole MEN love your wives as Christ loved The Church.
And the last time I checked, Christ DIED for The Church. 
There is no greater sacrifice than that. 

Sometimes a man can follow Scripture to a 'T' and his wife still chooses to cheat.
Sometimes a woman can follow Scriptures to a "T" and her husband will still choose to cheat.

To say to a man "well did you take allow her to do what ever she wants even if it is determental to your family" is like saying to a woman "did you provide a warm fuzzy feel good place even though his behavior is that of a child, and a selfish pig of a child?"

I am sorry. That just, doesn't fly. 
And it's not Biblical. 
There are PLENTY of examples where the man has called his wife out, and a woman has called her husband out. 
NOT for the sake of meanness, but out of love to help them make better choices.

Sorry, I am not down for doormat religion.




> *God is our source.* We are our husband's helpmete. It can't be the other way around or else it is out of order and problems arise.
> It's just an issue of creation. *None of us can be what we are not created to be*.


THAT is the hardest part.
Yes, as Believers we KNOW that is true, God is our source.
BUT
When the husband is right in our face, all the time, sometimes the lines get blurred. 
Yes, that is DEAD WRONG.....but to say it does not happen, is a lie.

I so badly want to be whatever it is that I have been Created to be.
I ask the Lord all the time to show me.
Some days I think I know.....others, I have no idea!!



> There is so much pain in a covenant under stress. I am so sorry to anyone who going through this anywhere.
> May God grant everyone peace and heal their hearts.


Thank you, I appreciate your kind words.
I think it starts from the beginning.
God said "do not be unequally yoked". 
That is the source of MANY problems.

Again, seriously, thank you everyone for your input. It is helpful and appreciated.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

I would love to tell you about my home, prior to Aug 2011.

90% of the time, this was the case.(for the last 10 years 2003-date)

As you come down my street, you will wind around to my driveway.
Entering the property, you will find that in the summer, my son and daughter mow and trim the grass. 
Quite a feat, as I only have about 5 trees on the whole 5 acres!!
As you pull up to the house you will find no 'clutter in the yard' other than an old dryer my son shoots pucks at.
In the summer, if you walk up the front steps you are met with a few flowers and a neat / tidy front deck. 
If you walk up the back steps, you are met with well manicured flower beds full of beautiful flowers. 
And the only thing on the back deck, is the gas grill.

As you enter the house, the puppies will greet you.
The house will either smell like whatever is cooking for dinner, what ever was baked that day, or a warm vanilla coconut wall plug in (from Bath and body).

Who ever was home, made sure to say "hello" to him as he walked through the door. 
As children, I had them run to the door and give hugs....they are older so now it is a verbal recognition when someone comes home.
The house is clean, and tidy.
No stacks of papers, junk, or otherwise.
Kitchen table is clean (although no one sits at it)
Kitchen counters, clear
Living room picked up floor swept.
Dinner ready to eat.
{and always enough so he could take some in for lunch the next day}

The bedroom was a reflection of his likes. 
His drum kit was in the corner. 
His computer was on a table. 
His favorite team's blanket hanging on the wall. 
It looked like a batchelor pad.
But the bed was made. No hair in the sinks or tub. Mirrors clean and free of toothpaste smear.

The garage was his, I didn't try to clean or organize it, and I sure didn't complain about it. This was his domain.

90% of the time I was not home when he got home because I worked. I usually left between 3:30pm and 5pm.

When he came home there was no 'mess or chaos' to look at but there was also no 'mess or chaos' to 'hear'.
No fussin or fightin. No 'heavy' conversations.
It was "how was your day, what's your plans for this evening, etc.'.

So, I made sure:
The grass was cut / The driveway was shoveled
The house was clean
The bills were paid / dealt with all difficult folks (ins. IRS. disputing a bill)
Dinner was ready / Extras for lunch the next day
No tension or fussin or fighting when he walked through the door.
When he had a second job, I never, ever asked him for ONE DIME of that money. 
For years, he walked around with 2.00 in his pocket and he hated it.
I hated it for him. I know that is a huge ego crusher....
So when he got a PT job, I never asked him for any of it for bills.
I picked up a 2nd and 3rd job to pay the bills.
But I never asked him for the extra.......

So I think that 90% of the time, the home that he came home to was awesome.
I went way out of my way to make this a 'safe place' a 'haven from the world'.
I did several 'Biblical Wife' studies, and used those as guides to build a 'home' that people looked forward to being at.

That's why I say: Humans just suck. A man can provide everything and more, and his wife will STILL choose to cheat. 
A woman can provide everything and more and her husband will STILL choose to cheat.

To say "well if she would have just lost a couple pounds or cleaned the house better"
Is as stupid to say as
"well if he would have made more money or took out the trash".
This would have never happened....

Cause, that is a lie.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

(Laurazone5 said)

90% of the time I was not home when he got home because I worked. I usually left between 3:30pm and 5pm.

He asks if I look forward to him coming home from work.


************
just offering an observation^^^

(and, as a housecleaner...people are the heart and light of a home, not clean mirrors. 

Laura, I'm trying to respect your pain and disappointment. But I gotta say this about that Good Biblical Wife stuff--yes, a clean orderly home is a good thing. But a home without chaos of "heavy discussion" or kids screaming delighted at dressing up the cat is dead. Stepford without a heart. All that "peace and quiet" is like a funeral.

He didn't feel needed. What a man wants, when he comes home, is to see the spontaneous "default setting" of joy on his loved ones faces on seeing him. My dad came home to a messy house with a clinically depressed wife...and two little girls that ran to the door to hug and kiss him. he kept coming home.)


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

A person who is goint to cheat is going to cheat. 

Nobody will EVER be the perfect spouse well enough to change that!!!!!!!!!! It isn't possible, as no human has ever been perfect.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

That Good Biblical Wife stuff--my beef is it gets presented as, and/or it is easy to let it descend into, basically a spell to get something you want. You end up so busy doing, that's all you have. Martha/Mary. Although...Jesus did not say Martha did the wrong thing, just that Mary chose the better thing at that moment--she smiled at Jesus coming into her home, and dropped "everything" to give him 100% presence.


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## Owl918 (Dec 12, 2012)

My ex also cheated. I desperately wanted to save the marriage because we have 3 children together. If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't change a thing. Don't quit until you know you've done everything. I see the pain it causes my children and I KNOW (for myself) that I did everything that could be done, so I don't feel the guilt, that's on him. He feels it by the way. YEARS after the split he finally admitted to the cheating (which was a HUGE relief after years of wondering if I was nuts) and he told me that it had absolutely nothing to do with me. I was a great wife, there was nothing I was holding back or not giving but that he wanted for himself something completely selfish. To be with someone who adored him with no problems: no bills, no kid issues, no family problems...a dream world. He married this woman and tells me frequently (over a decade later) that he screwed up and wouldn't make that mistake again. He's not trying to get me back. I've forgiven him, we are friends again. He's a great father, just "couldn't keep it in his pants and let it do all his thinking." He's miserable in his life now. For the record, I'm blissfully happy on year ten with my second husband...this one is forever.

My advice: Keep trying until you've made sure there's nothing left to salvage. Do this for YOU...so you will know that you saved it or that you tried everything (sounds like you are.) I would try the counseling if he will go. We went twice, he didn't like taking the responsibility of his actions and it didn't work for us. 

My next advice is the most important. Forgive him for being human and for making a mistake. I'm giving this advice even though I know it's SO HARD. Here's the thing though, you cannot move forward until you've forgiven him. You can't move forward in the marriage AND you can't move forward with any other relationship either...and it makes a harder road for you to live in down the road with him or by yourself. Forgive him for YOURSELF. Anger, resentment, and all those other ugly words are really harder on you than you know. Forgive him now if you can...it gives the marriage its best shot. If the forgiveness doesn't come in time to save the marriage, at least forgive him later. People do stupid things, they are self destructing, sometimes they would take it back...sometimes they rationalize and make excuses. Pray about it. Listen to that voice inside and just let it go...it's eating you up.

I'm not saying forget, I'm not saying be stupid and let the behavior continue, I'm just saying merely to forgive and let that poison in your heart OUT. See what happens and please let us know how it works out. You'll be in my prayers.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I would love to tell you about my home, prior to Aug 2011.
> 
> 90% of the time, this was the case.(for the last 10 years 2003-date)


But didn't this time span include the 7 years in which you didn't feel safe sharing any of your dreams, hopes or fears with your husband? I can only imagine the hurt, anger and resentment you must have felt as a result.

If there isn't emotional intimacy in a marriage ... if you aren't on the same team, so to speak ... the trappings don't matter all that much. (For the record, the soon-to-be-ex and I lived in a spotless, tastefully decorated home, and it didn't safe our marriage. It never even crossed my mind what I'd be giving up if I left, and I can't say I've missed it.)


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

WT
Imagine that your only responsibility was to go to work, come home, maintain the cars, fix broken stuff and that's about it.

You never even had to so much as THINK about one other thing.

Yeah *I* know it's my fault. (I say that with all seriousness)
I never said no.....to anything he wanted.
He would do things like put the bread on the bottom of the bag and the 10lb bag of potatoes on top of the bread. 
That way I would never ask him to stop at the store again.
Really our marriage has been completely dysfunctional outta the gate.
A lot of it carries over from what we learned from our parents.....sad.

No, WG, there was no emotional intimacy. Ever.
The first 10 years I tried every which way I could to communicate with him.
After 10 years I could see it was getting me nowhere, but frustrated and hurt.
I spent 3 years slowly disconnecting.
And then the following 7 years, I just didn't talk about me at all. 
None of my hopes, fears, dreams, passions......I just didn't talk about me.
We only talked about what HE wanted to talk about....
When I tell you we had maybe 5 verbal altercations in 7 years, that really may be a stretch.
It might be more like 3.

But that's my fault.
I allowed and fed the 'beast'.

I guess my point w/ the clean home was this:
He was lacking, nothing. I gave him everything he wanted PLUS more.
Terri's post (81) really says it all though.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Terri's post (81) really says it all though.


Nope, sorry, I don't buy that. And I have been a cheater, so I ought to know, right? :hysterical:

You didn't give your husband a perfect marriage, and the bonehead screwed it up anyway. You had a marriage with no emotional intimacy, in which you harbored resentment and contempt for him, even if you didn't express it verbally. (I'm not saying that's your fault ... he may well have earned it.) A marriage in which there is no_ love_ is a miserable marriage, even if the house is clean. I've BTDT, too.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> Nope, sorry, I don't buy that. And I have been a cheater, so I ought to know, right? :hysterical:
> 
> You didn't give your husband a perfect marriage, and the bonehead screwed it up anyway. You had a marriage with no emotional intimacy, in which you harbored resentment and contempt for him, even if you didn't express it verbally. (I'm not saying that's your fault ... he may well have earned it.) A marriage in which there is no_ love_ is a miserable marriage, even if the house is clean. I've BTDT, too.


You are so right.
After a few years of the "let's just do what he wants and forget about me"....yeah, there was for sure some bitterness and resentment.
Trying to bury that in 'busy' stuff (work, garden, volunteering, etc) works a wee bit....until you are alone or you see another couple that is CLEARLY functioning properly.
Then the bitterness and resentment starts to kick in.
The "what's wrong with me, why can't he hold my hand, or _____" whatever the case may be.

The clean house was more for me than him. 
He was perfectly happy living in squaller when I met him. As long as there was a tv and internet access, he could care less what's going on around him.

I know a clean house does not make a good marriage.
I was more trying to show that I was trying to make our home a comfortable, safe, warm place to be. Having it clean, and tidy was part of that design.:buds:


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Have you heard of the book "The Five Love Languages"? Seems sometimes what we do to express love for our significant other doesn't resonate with them because their priorities are different.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Terri said:


> A person who is goint to cheat is going to cheat.
> 
> Nobody will EVER be the perfect spouse well enough to change that!!!!!!!!!! It isn't possible, as no human has ever been perfect.


Thank you Terri! Best thing I have read on here. 

It kind of ruffles my feathers when I see anyone trying to make the cheating anyone's fault but the cheaters. 

We have been married 30 years and seen many friends go through failed marriages due to cheating and a few made it through the episode. I think the ones that worked through it were the ones where the cheating spouse let the spouse know it was not anything they did, it was just plain selfishness on the cheaters part. Usually they were dealing with a) financial problems b) wife got a better job than husband c) co-workers encouraged the affair and most everyone in the office was cheaters d) death of a child e) death of other family member f) empty nest syndrome

Seems to me probably more of a stress problem than a bad spouse problem and I am proud of the friends who had the guts to admit it was them and not the other. 

Laura, Do Not keep trying to figure out what you did....you didn't---he did!! End of that chapter of the story.


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## lathermaker (May 7, 2010)

He cheated on you for almost a year and he's an addict.

Two of my top reasons to kick him to the curb. Life's too short to put up with that kind of crap...


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

cindi U asked how a man could cheat on his wife IF he was getting sex all he wanted
Life is more than just sex. Thats just a tooth in a gear.

IF shes a sloppy dresser, stays home, while hes working, and she sees no reason to sex herself up somewhat in dress when he gets home, IF her hairs a mess, OR in curls, and if she constantly goes around the house bare foot or in flip flops, if she just watches TV all day and the house is a mess. Being a lousy cook or indefferent dosent help either
If these teeth, in the gear of marriage keep getting broke off, than sooner or later the machine of marriage dosent run.

IF shes working, and when she gets home, shes always tired EVEN if shes willing to have sex. IF her feet hurt after all day wearing heels, and shes back to bare feet and flip flops constantly in front of him, IF she dresses down after shes home from work.
IF, they are both working, and shes too tired to cook dinner, and he offers to take her out to dine and dance, and shes to foot sore to dance, not caring to think that he might have had to stand all day too, AND likely carry heavy stuff from time to time while standing, OR pulling or pushing heavy stuff

IF hes been around women who see he is married and are trying to get him to notice them thinking that they are safe to play with him since he is married, And they are dressed somewhat inviting if not downright sexy, AND if when he hits on them and they begin to think that hes a keeper if they can snag him

THEN he will be getting his sex from someone else.

The thought of marriage comes sooner or later along with the thoughts of bills, yelling kids, nagging wife, parental problems, doubled, and a doz other things.

Messing around with another woman comes with the thoughts of daring, danger, newness, different sex stuff, no strings attached (so he thinks), and the thought that theres a buncha woman out there just like the one hes fooling around with that he can play with if miss current sobers up and moves on.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

That is the perfect example of selfish IMO, somewhat true but selfish none the less farmboybill. I come home from work as does he, change into chore clothes, do chores, shower, change into pj's and house slippers, fix dinner, watch an hour of tv, head to bed around 9pm and we are back up at 4am to start over. We look forward to the weekends when we find a "fun" activity such as dinner out or a movie after spending Sat. morning and evening working on the cabin or a project in the barn. I guess a date night so to speak. Works for us! DH makes comments sometimes about how many days till Sat. I think it keeps it interesting . I think the excuses need to stop. Instead of excuses make time (this is for the cheaters).

BTW farmboybill I am not saying that what you stated is not the truth in many people's lives I am just saying that we are all adults here and making choices are part of being responsible. Excuses are for kids or should be.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Forgiveness takes three steps.
He must say he is sorry. He must change the behavour that led to the trouble. He must attempt to mend the damage.

He cannot do that if he sees you don't look forward to being around him. He cannot do that if you continue to remind him of his "sin/failing". 

If you want to end a conversation, ask a man how that makes him feel. For many guys, questions beyond hungry, tired, horney, they haven't really thought about other feelings. 

A Marrage Councelor is needed. But when thoughts/ideas that you don't agree with, you have to take it in and not filter it out.

Ever take the Love Languages Test? Interesting to learn what he values and what you value. Then you can see what it takes to make him happy and he can see what you need. The test is on line somewhare.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Forgiveness takes three steps.
> He must say he is sorry. He must change the behavour that led to the trouble. He must attempt to mend the damage.
> 
> He cannot do that if he sees you don't look forward to being around him. He cannot do that if you continue to remind him of his "sin/failing".
> ...


Is this 'really' true?
I feel like this is really 'selling men short' to think they are no deeper than food, sleep and sex?




> A Marrage Councelor is needed. But when thoughts/ideas that you don't agree with, you have to take it in and not filter it out.
> 
> *Ever take the Love Languages Test?* Interesting to learn what he values and what you value. Then you can see what it takes to make him happy and he can see what you need. The test is on line somewhare.


Yes we have!!
My 'languages" are:
1. Acts of Service
2. Words of Affirmation.

His 'languages' are:
1. Physical Touch
2. Gifts.

Those are in order.
We took the test in Nov 2011, and really they are spot on.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

just curious Laura, do you think "acts of Service" is better than "physical touch" as a way of communicating love? more moral, noble, sacred, etc?


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

you were brave to share that Bill, and you're right. except I beg to differ on bare feet and curly hair ha! never had anyone say ew! rather the opp. 

(ps just teasin ya on curly, I'm sure you meant curlers)

now just to be clear this is not a comment about the current relationship being discussed, just sharing from my own life.

sure there are guys that have to have a lot of women, they need to just be honest about it and live that life--seriously, go for it, just be honest and up front, you will learn what there is to learn. but there are others...they live with a nagging, condescending, controlling person. They come across someone who simply smiles at them--powerful stuff. We condemn them for being attracted to something good, while saying the wife has good excuse to beach. Something aint right there.

I will be open and say while I was faithful to my husband, when it got bad and all I got from him was anger and anything I did hacked him off--when someone simply smiled at me it made me melt. I REALLY had to focus to keep a clear picture of everything--doing my best to care for my husband, yet not lose in myself what makes people smile at me. 

I'm just saying, I understand the "temptation"(I am loathe to call it that!!!) to let oneself be loved...and give love without it being nitpicked to death.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

wyld thang said:


> just curious Laura, do you think "acts of Service" is better than "physical touch" as a way of communicating love? more moral, noble, sacred, etc?


I do not think one is better than the other, no, because it is how an individual is wired.

If holding hands, standing close, a gentle touch across your back, snuggling, etc is your way of knowing "hey, this person really really loves me"......it's no different than the person who "knows" they are loved by a clean house, well maintenanced cars, a non leaky roof or a cleaned out flower bed. 

I do not think one is better than the next because each is individual to the person. That's the beauty of being 'wonderfully and uniquely Created!"


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

wyld thang said:


> you were brave to share that Bill, and you're right. except I beg to differ on bare feet and curly hair ha! never had anyone say ew! rather the opp.
> 
> (ps just teasin ya on curly, I'm sure you meant curlers)
> 
> ...


When you are right.....sister, you are right.
I too understand that temptation.....it is a strong and mighty powerful pull.
Being faithful in those conditions, is not easy.
But it show does make one sleep well knowing that one made the choice to remain faithful..

I genuinely appreciate this honest post......you are awesome.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I do not think one is better than the other, no, because it is how an individual is wired.
> 
> If holding hands, standing close, a gentle touch across your back, snuggling, etc is your way of knowing "hey, this person really really loves me"......it's no different than the person who "knows" they are loved by a clean house, well maintenanced cars, a non leaky roof or a cleaned out flower bed.
> 
> I do not think one is better than the next because each is individual to the person. That's the beauty of being 'wonderfully and uniquely Created!"


good then. and yet...there is a difference, to the person who feels deeply "spoken to" by touch, and they get a clean bathroom instead.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> When you are right.....sister, you are right.
> I too understand that temptation.....it is a strong and mighty powerful pull.
> Being faithful in those conditions, is not easy.
> But it show does make one sleep well knowing that one made the choice to remain faithful..
> ...


 
thanks Laura! I'm only trying to help, ha  I've learned so much trying to take away something positive from a bad situation. It is sure worth the effort! and it is dang hard work to do so. You have a great attitude in trying to understand amd move forward and grow--that is the hardest hurdle for anyone, getting to the positive place.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

wyld thang said:


> good then. and yet...there is a difference, to the person who feels deeply "spoken to" by touch, and they get a clean bathroom instead.


Or when a 'physical person' receives their love, to the overflow...... and they reciprocate nothing.....and never giving anything in return.
Think dead sea......:yuck:


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

wyld thang said:


> thanks Laura! I'm only trying to help, ha  I've learned so much trying to take away something positive from a bad situation. It is sure worth the effort! and it is dang hard work to do so. You have a great attitude in trying to understand amd move forward and grow--that is the hardest hurdle for anyone, getting to the positive place.


I know a lot of my posts lately don't reflect who I have been for 40+ years.....but anyone who has known me more than the last 2 years will tell you that I try to find the sliver lining in EVERYTHING......sometimes to the point that it makes people angry that I will not just 'be down'.
Now clearly in the last 18 months, I have been, on occasion, DEBBIE DOWNER to the third power.....But I do try to see the good in everything. I really do.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

i AGREE WITH YOU lAURA, but i SEE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN SERVICE, AND PHYSICAL AT 2 DIFFERENT TIMES OF MY LIFE.

i THINK THAT ONE APPReCIATES ONE OR THE OTHER AT DIFFERENT TIMES OF THEIR LIVES Sorry bout the caps.

When I was young, I wanted the emotional/physical/love, and expected the physical/work because that brought us closer to our shared goals.


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