# How Were You Influenced To Believe Or Not Believe In God?



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

I have lived at or near the bottom rung of society for most of my life. I and my family; both of origin and after marriage, were pretty much dirt floor poor. What I experienced could not be considered racism because we were white and our antagonists were also white. Have you ever watched "The Grapes of Wrath" with Henry Fonda? While it is both a movie and a work of fiction; it represents a life in America that this poor white boy can relate to.

The place I experienced the caste system in America the most was; in the "House of God." I have lived this: James 2:1 "My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?" I don't have to tell you that the only gold ring I owned was a thin wedding band. Even now, just by writing this to you, my mind is filled with memories that I have not entertained for many years and even now wish that I could escape from at this very moment.

My experiences have caused me to despise organized religion. In my mind; denominational "christianity" is a concept that was born in the pits of Hell itself. It is godless and destroys far more lives than it "saves." It produces spawn that engage in the favorite pastime of denominational believers; they spend all of their time either polishing their armor, or fighting among themselves.

Matthew 23: 13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

Religion in America is the domain of the upper middle class. When you enter the parking lot of nearly any church house; it will be populate by late model vehicles; the parishioners will be nattily dressed. carrying copies of the King James Bible, because as you know; if the King James Bible was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me.

I know this all to well to be a fact. In my naïve youth I believed that Christians were all brothers and sisters of one big family. You could travel anywhere in the country, (which we as a family did; due to my wanderlust nature and the belief that there were opportunities out there, a la "Go west Young Man," only in my case it was East because I started out on my journey from Arizona, but I digress,) and be welcomed just like you were going to grandma's house. Yeah right! Just try going to grandma's in an old beater car; loaded with four small kids and a wife. Dressed in clean; often well worn, hand-me downs for the kiddos, far from fashionable clothes. I don't recall that I have ever worn a suit, unless it was rented or borrowed. Number one is I am of the "monkey suit" persuasion and second, when my family was young, it would have been a vain gesture to spend $100 or more on something that I only wore to church and aspired to be buried in.

Have you ever seen a leper? Neither have I, I have only read about them in the Bible, I do know, however, what it probably feels like to be one of them. You could practically feel like someone handed you a bell as you exited your clunker in the church parking lot with your brood; so you could ring it while you shouted "unclean! unclean." Ever had a dead fish handshake? I know all about those. It wasn't all bad and there were those who actually demonstrated genuine kindness; however, I never really saw or truly experienced anything; then or now, that distinguished garden variety church folk and preachers from your garden variety reprobate godless heathen.

I could go on; and on; and on again, but I'm certain by now that you get the picture. It finally got to the breaking point with me and I did the predictable thing; I blamed God and quit going to church. At the time I was too immature to realize that there is a chasm between obedience to denominational christianity and having an actual intimate relationship with God. As they say, "Religion is a man sitting in church thinking about fishing. Relationship is a man fishing, thinking about God." For a time I threw the baby out with the bathwater and wouldn't crack a Bible. My children and grandchildren are the one's who have suffered because of that. While they are truly wonderful people; none of them profess a relationship with Jesus. I lost a son in 2016 and I will never know in this life if he truly ever came to Jesus. I can only hope.











I accept that I only have myself to blame for my waywardness. It was 100% my fault that I expected church people to actually be following the teachings of Jesus; poor misguided sucker that I was. I also had to overcome years of hellfire and damnation preaching. Don't get me wrong; I do believe that the wages of sin needs to be hammered from the pulpit; just not to very impressionable children below the age of 10, like was my experience. Back when I and my siblings were little, there was no such thing as children's church. King James was no help. Why did David not want the Lord as his shepherd? Psalm 23. Why did I have to hate my mommy and daddy and everybody including myself? Luke 14:26.

As I wrote in the above piece; "Even now, just by writing this to you, my mind is filled with memories that I have not entertained for many years and even now wish that I could escape from at this very moment." a fire began to burn within me. I have long felt that I was subjected to abuse at the hands of The Peoria Church of the Nazarene, Peoria, AZ and John Rhame minister in particular. 

My family and I started attending there in the mid 60's at the time Roger Williams was pastor. Roger was and is a very kind and nice guy. I still keep in touch with him on occasion. He and his family left there in the late 60's and he was replaced by John Rhame (not certain of the spelling) Mr. Rhame could not be more different than Pastor Williams. In his youth he was a rockabilly guitarist who drank, smoked and said dirty words. (In my young indoctrinated mind the trifecta of reasons for a toboggan ride straight to hell upon death)

Mr. Rhame, like many others who had "got religion" after having a checkered past had neither mercy ,nor empathy for mortals who where imperfect and struggling with their imperfect humanity. There was no children's church for kids to go, so from the age of around 10 I was subjected to so much Hellfire and Damnation preaching that my clothes almost smelled of sulfur dioxide after services and I was nearly 30 years old before I began to let go of believing that God hated my guts.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

I repeat myself often:


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

There's no video for the movie quote I find, but it's from the 1998 Merlin miniseries: 'I follow my own heart, that's religion enough for me.'

I come from French Catholics who weren't especially holy, just went to church every Sunday (but not my father, he was a Protestant). I went to religion class and did First Communion. I never particularly liked going to any of those. When I was 11 something happened to me where I strongly disliked 'God' and even if he was around he or she was nothing I wanted to believe in.

I used to ask my mother why she faithfully went to church when she doesn't really do anything else and she said mainly to dress up and 'just because'. Now I'm agnostic and don't do anything religious, or even care. Being a volunteer and good person for its own reward is better than organized religion for the sake of it.

I watched that movie once before, Hiro, and forgot that part. Thank you for posting it.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

That movie had issues, but was worth watching. There were parts of it that are hard to forget and that is one of them. 

We all have to decide every day whether to be a good person or not. And, that sums it up. I am Pollyanna.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I was raised attending a Baptist church. I saw as a teenager that within that church there was no love, no healing, no liberty. I only saw hatred, egotism, jealousy, greed and laws. 

In the Navy I got involved with D&D which led to a group of spell-casters. I witnessed things that could have only been spiritual power, and it was in the hands of worshipers of lucifer. 

I fell into turmoil, it just did not make any sense to me that the enemy of God could exist and give power to men; without someone somewhere operating power for God. I just could not understand a universe where only dark power is present. 

One day, while in the barracks, I prayed to God; asking that if God did exist, if somebody did walk in God's power; to bring me to those people. 

When I finished my prayer, there was a knock on my door. A young lady stood there and she asked me: "Do you want to operate power in your life"? 

I followed her, she took me to a public-exhibition of a class presented by a 'Jesus cult' doing home fellowships. I signed up that day. 

I had to go to sea soon after, but the next time that I was in port, I re-located that group and got the schedule for their classes. 

That led me to others who openly share love and worship God.

Within that environment I saw many miracles.

God has proven Himself to me many times, I have no doubts.


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## 67drake (May 6, 2020)

To answer the OP question, I don’t know. 
My family always went to church, and I went to Sunday school too. I went to my churches parochial school from K- 8th grade. I have always believed in God as far back as I can remember. 
Tom I’m glad you have been able to separate the church, the hypocrisy, and God. Many can’t. I’ve seen people who have had bad experiences in a church, or by hypocritical Christians, and end up hating God, instead of putting the blame where it is due. 
I’ve discussed it here before, but I have spirituality today that I never had while attending church often, I got that through a non church related group.
A while back my wife was complaining her and the kids weren’t getting any churching since we moved away from our old home. We found a small town rural church out here that we like. The pastor is down to earth, the congregation is friendly and non judgmental, and they don’t look down their nose at you if you show up in your Carhartt and work boots.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

67drake said:


> To answer the OP question, I don’t know.
> My family always went to church, and I went to Sunday school too. I went to my churches parochial school from K- 8th grade. I have always believed in God as far back as I can remember.
> Tom I’m glad you have been able to separate the church, the hypocrisy, and God. Many can’t. I’ve seen people who have had bad experiences in a church, or by hypocritical Christians, and end up hating God, instead of putting the blame where it is due.
> I’ve discussed it here before, but I have spirituality today that I never had while attending church often, I got that through a non church related group.
> A while back my wife was complaining her and the kids weren’t getting any churching since we moved away from our old home. We found a small town rural church out here that we like. The pastor is down to earth, the congregation is friendly and non judgmental, and they don’t look down their nose at you if you show up in your Carhartt and work boots.


Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell.

Spirituality is for people who have already been there.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Hiro said:


> That movie had issues, but was worth watching.


I agree. I thought that the fairies and dragon were very inaccurate for the time period.


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## VBF (Apr 15, 2017)

My parents have been divorced since I was very young and didn't take me to church much, though other family members tried. I decided as a teen that I wouldn't be a believer and at age 18 got into a pretty nasty car wreck that I shouldn't have survived. There was an angel in my passenger seat that day and since then I believe. I don't go to church even now with a family of my own, but we read and try to follow the bible as best as we can.

Sent from my moto g(7) using Homesteading Today mobile app


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

I was raised as a Methodist---a small rural church that my ancestors for several generations had supported.

But the "United Methodist" church leaders became woke and more interested in political and social issues than Christianity. Most Sunday services now consist of a sermon on 3 points from the news and 3 hymns that the congregation cannot sing.

Still, after I moved to a larger town, I joined and went to the local Methodist church with my wife and 2 children. We developed close friends there (so I thought). When I went through a very difficult divorce, and we stopped going on Sunday mornings, not one church member EVER called me to talk. I stopped going. I decided that they were not real Christians.

The church left me; I didn't leave the church.

I have visited other churches (other religions) and I simply find that I do not believe what they hold sacred.

When my teenage stepdaughter was fatally injured in a car wreck (not her fault) and she lay up in an emergency room and bled to death (internally), I decided that I just cannot believe in a God that would let that happen. Yeah, I know: God knows best, and He works in mysterious ways, etc.


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## Adirondackian (Sep 26, 2021)

I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools for 12 years. That went a long way in pushing me away from the Catholic church, The nuns were the most miserable, mean, and hateful people I ever met in my entire life. Most of them were truly, deeply, unhappy women who took their frustrations and hatred out on small children. When boys grew too big to beat up, they just used every passive aggressive trick in the book to inflict whatever pain/discomfort they possibly could.

The head priest was a flaming homosexual [ though he was decent and not a pedo, thank God ]. My father saw him out of his robes in the city flouncing around with his partner.

Now I did meet many really good, devout, serious priests in my life around the church. Several were from Ireland, and one from Africa, these were real good, devout priests. But there were also some doozees. The nuns were almost universally horrid [ though there were one or two that were genuine ].

I pulled away from religion altogether until I started meditating and studying Buddhism. To make a long story short; I began to realize that the whole world and all of existence is a miracle. All of it together is God [ including ourselves ] and all forms of worship are equally valid. This lead me to gain a new respect for Christianity. At my core, my values are strongly Christian though my belief is that the form my spiritual practice takes is irrelevant so long as its there.

So; go to Methodist church, go to Catholic church, go to a Synogog, dance around a fire naked, sit in meditation, ring bells, pray, cast spells, read the bible, light candles, form circles.....doesnt matter. Its all effectively a recognition of the spiritual reality of existence. Its necessary for a healthy, balanced life.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Most of the modern Christian religion outlets do not represent what they purport.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Tom Horn said:


> Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell.
> Spirituality is for people who have already been there.


Thank you.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

My parents sent us to RC school, and made us go to mass every Sunday. They did not go. 

<shrug> 

It was an interesting growing up.

ANYway, my experience with the nuns was pretty positive. We had about 1/2 lay teachers, 1/2 religious. Sure, there were a couple of stinkers (lay and religious), but overall, I got a very good education. 

I met Yeshua when I was 5 years old. A despairing child of that age is a child without hope. On a particularly heinous day, He came to me. He held me, He told me that everything will be okay. And eventually, it was. He gave me hope.

Sure, there were times I walked away from Him, and I still mess up regularly. But He always sends what I need. For example: When I was in 5th grade, and wondered why we were told that we needed to confess our sins to a middle-man, and why we were told to pray to saints to intercede, He sent a priest who told me that those things are not necessary, and encouraged me to read the Bible. 

When I was questioning the history of the RC church, the Lord led me to a book on Constantine and his One World Religion (sound familiar?) 

When my world fell apart in so many ways (sometimes through my fault, sometimes through the actions of others), He held me up and got me through. He continues to do so today. 

I am grateful for salvation through Yeshua HaMasshiach, Jesus the Christ. Despite what the world and the Sunday Morning Sororities say, His blessing is not demonstrated through affluence. In other words, the Prosperity Gospel pushed by so many denominations and t.v. charlatans is not the Good News of God. 

God is love. Love is not always mushy hearts, rainbows, and unicorn skittles. Sometimes, love requires firmness and sacrifice.

God loves His creation, and He has a plan in place to bring all things under His headship once again. He is about relationship with His own, and His desire is that all would come to know, love, and serve him.

I look for the day of His return.


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## Chief50 (10 mo ago)

When I was young my mother took all of us kids to church anytime the church doors were open. We set all lined up on the first pew. The older I got the more questions I had. No one would even try to answer them. After getting out on my own in this world I saw all of the suffering going on. I was sure then that god was a fairy tale. If there was a god why would he make people suffer so much?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The purpose of a deity isn’t to mitigate problems.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

As an engineer, I tend to live in the real world. I look for logical explanations for everything. (Sometimes it ain't there.) 

I also look at cause and effect and patterns.

As Donald Rumsfeld loved to say, "There are 'known knowns' (things that we know we know). There are 'known unknowns' (things that we know we do not know). But there are also 'unknown unknowns' (things that we don't know we don't know)."

God kind of falls into that latter category for me.

There are complex things (like humans, the structure of atoms, the solar system, and gravity) in the world that seem too well organized and too complex to have evolved by chance or even survival of the fittest.

That suggests to me that there seems to be a creator.

I wonder: If an insect or germ could see the things that humans have created like cars, airplanes, TV, the internet, nuclear power, etc., maybe they would label us as "God".

A view into that concept is presented in a little book named "Flatland" written in 1884. Don't let the Wikipedia review of it fool you. It's really pretty good.

Kind of like the "watchmaker" theology analogy.


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## 67drake (May 6, 2020)

NRA_guy said:


> I was raised as a Methodist---a small rural church that my ancestors for several generations had supported.
> 
> But the "United Methodist" church leaders became woke and more interested in political and social issues than Christianity. Most Sunday services now consist of a sermon on 3 points from the news and 3 hymns that the congregation cannot sing.
> 
> ...


I’m so sorry to hear about your step daughter. I can’t speak from experience, because I’ve never been in that situation. I will say that a belief in God does not protect me from pain, anger, confusion, ect. The Bible even says it can be harder for Christians sometimes. I also believe that I will go on to a better place, and I will see all those loved ones I miss. My perspective is a lot different these days, compared to the past when I was angry and asked “Why me!?”
Remember, the church is run by PEOPLE no different than you. They are sinners too. That’s why I have no tolerance for arrogance and judgment by anyone. I don’t claim perfection, and neither should they. If they think they are better, I move on.
Conversely, God has put people in my life to speak through. More often than not I don’t find these people at church. They can be anywhere. If I’m seeking answers on a spiritual level, the teacher appears, and most of the time not where I’m looking. 
I’ve recommended a movie before. It was a surprise answer to a lot of questions I had. Watch the movie “The Shack”. Maybe you won’t get out of it what I did, but it helped me. That’s about as good as I can do. It focuses on with dealing with the pain and mental torment we have to deal with.
https://www.google.com/search?q=the...outube.com/watch?v=536GqWYOHdI[/URL]"]YouTube


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

Without seeking to change anyone's mind about anything, I recommend watching "God on Trial" a British play-for-television, set in Auschwitz, where Jewish inmates debate the presence, as well as the nature of, God. They do it in a form of trial, with both sides of the argument articulately expressed. 



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_on_Trial


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

We were raised without any religious pressures or interference. We spent our spare time in nature as a family either skiing every single weekend, or camping and road trips when the snow melted. Home Sunday night for school the next morning. One set of grandparents went to church but it never came up. Sometimes I wish we had discussed it with them but only to understand them better, as people/family.
Religion just wasn’t a thing. It also isn’t as big in Canada as it is in the US from what I can tell. It hasn’t reached its tentacles into contemporary politics like it has in the US.
The more I read or witness the less likely I will ever be to join a religion. The historic atrocities committed around the word but in particular south and Central America.
The residential schools run by the church in Canada. Watching American politicians easily lead voters in with their BS religious tripe, anti gay, anti science, so much hate. If you’re raised in it I suppose that is “normal”. But it’s not ok. From where I sit.
From the outside looking in it’s broken.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

NRA_guy said:


> I was raised as a Methodist---a small rural church that my ancestors for several generations had supported.
> 
> But the "United Methodist" church leaders became woke and more interested in political and social issues than Christianity. Most Sunday services now consist of a sermon on 3 points from the news and 3 hymns that the congregation cannot sing.
> 
> ...


“To draw an analogy: a man's suffering is similar to the behavior of a gas. If a certain quantity of gas is pumped into an empty chamber, it will fill the chamber completely and evenly, no matter how big the chamber. Thus, suffering completely fills the human soul and conscious mind, no matter whether the suffering is great or little. Therefore the "size" of human suffering is absolutely relative.”

― Viktor Emil Frankl, Man's Search For Meaning (Tap the blue title and you can read the book.)

That said, I lost a son in 2016, he was 36 years old. I do not blame God for his passing, nor am I angry with God because my son is dead. 

Anyone who tells me that they are a Christian gets no credit with me. 

They must prove it, because in my experience most professing "christians" are self-absorbed liars.

Just like this:

Matthew 23:
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Pony said:


> My parents sent us to RC school, and made us go to mass every Sunday. They did not go.
> 
> <shrug>
> 
> ...


God is not so much concerned with our comfort as he is with our character.

Hebrews 12:7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Serious question. How do you know that God is concerned with your character?


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Chief50 said:


> When I was young my mother took all of us kids to church anytime the church doors were open. We set all lined up on the first pew. The older I got the more questions I had. No one would even try to answer them. After getting out on my own in this world I saw all of the suffering going on. I was sure then that god was a fairy tale. If there was a god why would he make people suffer so much?


God gave each of us a free will.

Free will is what caused Adam and Eve to screw up in the garden of Eden.

Free will is what causes man's inhumanity to man.

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Quoting the Bible in a philosophical discussion (or debate) about religion is invalid. The English versions have been mistranslated and corrupted.









Can the Bible Be Cited as a Research Reference?


Can the Bible Be Cited as a Research Reference?. For two billion Christians across the globe, the Bible is a highly credible reference that reveals important truths about life and God. Because it is a religious text riddled with the beliefs of an ancient civilization, though, it is not a...




penandthepad.com


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

67drake said:


> I’m so sorry to hear about your step daughter. I can’t speak from experience, because I’ve never been in that situation. I will say that a belief in God does not protect me from pain, anger, confusion, ect. The Bible even says it can be harder for Christians sometimes. I also believe that I will go on to a better place, and I will see all those loved ones I miss. My perspective is a lot different these days, compared to the past when I was angry and asked “Why me!?”
> Remember, the church is run by PEOPLE no different than you. They are sinners too. That’s why I have no tolerance for arrogance and judgment by anyone. I don’t claim perfection, and neither should they. If they think they are better, I move on.
> Conversely, God has put people in my life to speak through. More often than not I don’t find these people at church. They can be anywhere. If I’m seeking answers on a spiritual level, the teacher appears, and most of the time not where I’m looking.
> I’ve recommended a movie before. It was a surprise answer to a lot of questions I had. Watch the movie “The Shack”. Maybe you won’t get out of it what I did, but it helped me. That’s about as good as I can do. It focuses on with dealing with the pain and mental torment we have to deal with.
> https://www.google.com/search?q=the...outube.com/watch?v=536GqWYOHdI[/URL]"]YouTube












The most influential secular book I have ever read is Man's Search For Meaning by Viktor Frankl.


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## Big_Al (Dec 21, 2011)

I was raised to believe in God.
We went to church every Sunday.
I was baptized at age 14.
But then I went away to the Army. I discovered another, more worldly, way of life.
Then, I went to Vietnam, and saw "man's inhumanity to man" in a very vivid way. That can not even be imagined by those who have not experienced the utter vulgarity of warfare.
Then I became a drunk. And a user of drugs. Looking back now I think I was chasing that incredible high that comes with the huge amounts of adrenaline that being under fire releases into the body.
Failed marriage, lost jobs, finally trying the VA for PTSD treatment, still drinking copious amounts of alcohol, suicidal thoughts to the point of having the barrel of the loaded gun in my mouth.

I told my VA psychiatrist I had had enough. He offered to send me to a 28 day program at the VA hospital. I told him I could not afford to lose yet another job. He wrote me a prescription for valium and said "I suggest you find Alcoholics Anonymous".
So, I did. I found that the AA program, which is clearly laid out in the 12 Steps, is all about a relationship with a God of your understanding.
I did not want to hear "the God stuff". I knew there was a God, but I thought he wanted nothing to do with me. But I desperately wanted to be sober, so I did as the Old Timers said.
And you know what? By the time I finished the 12th Step, I became a believer. The God of my understanding is the God of my youth - Jesus Christ.
Today, over 30 years later, Jesus is the center of my life. And life is good. We have a saying "God led me to AA, and AA led me to God."
I do not go to church. I've found more spirituality in the average AA meeting than in many churches. Instead, I go to 4 AA meetings a week, and work with new comers, trying to lead them to God, just as I was.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

The Paw said:


> Without seeking to change anyone's mind about anything, I recommend watching "God on Trial" a British play-for-television, set in Auschwitz, where Jewish inmates debate the presence, as well as the nature of, God. They do it in a form of trial, with both sides of the argument articulately expressed.
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_on_Trial


This is the book that spoke to me the most about the concentration camps.



> MAN’S SEARCH FOR MEANING – DR. VIKTOR FRANKL
> 
> _“We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms – to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.”_
> 
> ...


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Quoting the Bible in a philosophical discussion (or debate) about religion is invalid. The English versions have been mistranslated and corrupted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not only is there the translation issue, but quoting scripture is a logical fail as an appeal to authority. A scripture quotation is not evidence of the truth of that statement, but simply evidence of what the author's beliefs are. Accepting scripture as the authoritative voice simply serves as one statement of faith, not evidence.

Which is fine, if that is what someone believes. But to say one accepts the idea of God as defined in the Bible because the Bible says so is a circular argument. I think it is more interesting to hear what causes a person to feel that the Bible (or any other religious/spiritual tract) rings true.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Thank you. That was a better explanation.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

The Paw said:


> Not only is there the translation issue, but quoting scripture is a logical fail as an appeal to authority. A scripture quotation is not evidence of the truth of that statement, but simply evidence of what the author's beliefs are. Accepting scripture as the authoritative voice simply serves as one statement of faith, not evidence.
> 
> Which is fine, if that is what someone believes. But to say one accepts the idea of God as defined in the Bible because the Bible says so is a circular argument. I think it is more interesting to hear what causes a person to feel that the Bible (or any other religious/spiritual tract) rings true.


I quote it because what I quote, I completely believe.

You can accept or reject where I come from and the experiences that I have lived and endured, however, for me, although there was a time when I threw the baby out with the bathwater regarding God I came back to it.

If you desire to dissect me ask away, I have no secrets and pretty much nothing is off limits and I try to be neither self-righteous nor condescending.

Everything I read or see reminds me of some passage in the bible so for me the Bible has become the center of wisdom and guidance.

Rip it, try to tear it down, try to call it logical fallacy, it works for me.

And second to the Bible is the one who more than any other has helped to drive that point home... A Jew named Viktor Frankl.




















































































I believe in the God of Abraham. I believe in the Bible both Old and New Testaments. I believe every Frankl quote that I have posted and more.

Nearly 100% of the atheists I have come across are bitter, resentful people, bent upon destroying any faith in God, hope or happiness that other people have in their hearts.

They hate themselves and because of that they are mad at the world.

"The letter that you wrote me made me stop and wonder why
But I guess you felt like you had to set things right
*Just remember this, my girl, when you look up in the sky
You can see the stars and still not see the light (that's right)" *

"Well I know it wasn't you who held me down
Heaven knows it wasn't you who set me free
*So often times it happens that we live our lives in chains
And we never even know we have the key."*

The Eagles... Already gone


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I know what you mean. You veiled your insults, but not well enough.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

I know that the easy reply is "judge not that ye be not judged", but I have some simple questions for Christians who say that the only way to heaven is through Jesus:

1. What about the bazillions of people (such as the folks who live and die in China, North Korea, or India) without ever having heard of Christ? 

2. What about the American Indians and Eskimos who lived and died (before Europeans brought Christianity to America) without ever having a chance to "be saved" by Christ?

3. Are all of the Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., going to hell?

4. What about people who lived before Jesus? Can they get to Heaven? If so, on what basis? (Good works won't get you there.)


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

NRA_guy said:


> I know that the easy reply is "judge not that ye be not judged", but I have some simple questions for Christians who say that the only way to heaven is through Jesus:
> 
> 1. What about the bazillions of people (such as the folks who live and die in China, North Korea, or India) without ever having heard of Christ?
> 
> ...


Here's the best answer that I have come up with for your questions because I have wondered about them myself.

Listen to what the priest says about the two facts and read the bible verses posted below the video.



















Romans 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)




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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)




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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Great thread. Thanks for starting it TH.

None of the questions asked here, or doubts expressed, are new. They are and have been common to man since the beginning.

God made man in His image (spiritual being) and yet man continually wants to make a god in his own "image" (something we can completely understand and empirically prove).

Keep searching, keep asking questions...and never let yourself get to the point where you think you have all the important answers.

I commend the community here for keeping this discussion civil.


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## Berwick (11 mo ago)

Now I feel encouraged to create a poll about "Catholic or Protestant?"


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

Berwick said:


> Now I feel encouraged to create a poll about "Catholic or Protestant?"


Don't stop there:
1 Eastern religions
1.1 East Asian religions
1.1.1 Confucianism
1.1.2 Shinto
1.1.3 Taoism
1.1.4 Other
1.1.4.1 Chinese religions
1.1.4.2 Chinese philosophy schools
1.1.4.3 Japanese religions
1.1.4.4 Korean religions
1.1.4.5 Mongolian religions
1.1.4.6 Vietnamese religions
1.2 Dharmic religions
1.2.1 Buddhism
1.2.1.1 Neo-Buddhism
1.2.2 Hinduism
1.2.2.1 Hindu new movements
1.2.3 Jainism
1.2.4 Sikhism
2 Middle Eastern religions
2.1 Abrahamic religions
2.1.1 Bábism
2.1.2 Christianity
2.1.2.1 Eastern Christianity
2.1.2.2 Western Christianity
2.1.2.3 Other
2.1.3 Druze
2.1.4 Islam
2.1.4.1 Khawarij
2.1.4.2 Shia Islam
2.1.4.3 Sufism
2.1.4.4 Sunni Islam
2.1.4.5 Other
2.1.5 Judaism
2.1.5.1 Kabbalah
2.1.5.2 Non-Rabbinic Judaism
2.1.5.3 Rabbinic Judaism
2.1.5.4 Others
2.1.5.5 Historical Judaism
2.1.6 Mandaeism (Sabianism)
2.2 Iranian religions
2.2.1 Yazdânism
2.2.2 Zoroastrianism
3 Indigenous (ethnic, folk) religions
3.1 African
3.1.1 Traditional African
3.1.2 Diasporic African
3.2 Altaic
3.3 American
3.4 Austroasiatic
3.5 Austronesian
3.6 Indo-European
3.7 Tai and Miao
3.8 Tibeto-Burmese
3.9 Uralic
3.10 Other Indigenous
4 New religious movements
4.1 Cargo cults
4.2 New ethnic religions
4.2.1 Black
4.2.2 Rastafari
4.2.3 Black Hebrew Israelites
4.2.4 White
4.2.5 Native American
4.3 Hindu-derived new religions
4.4 Sikh-derived new religions
4.5 Japanese new religions
4.6 Modern Paganism
4.6.1 Ethnic neopaganism
4.6.2 Syncretic neopaganism
4.7 Entheogenic religions
4.8 New Age Movement
4.9 New Thought
4.10 Parody religions and fiction-based religions
4.11 Post-theistic and naturalistic religions
4.12 UFO religions
4.13 Western esotericism
4.14 Other new
5 Historical religions
5.1 Bronze Age
5.2 Classical antiquity


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Agree with NRA_guy 

Don't make the poll options too restricted.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

NRA_guy said:


> Don't stop there:
> 1 Eastern religions
> 1.1 East Asian religions
> 1.1.1 Confucianism
> ...


And there's about a gazillion different Christian denominations to add to your list.

It's neither my job, nor concern regarding sorting out all of the differences in the belief systems of humanity.

Any beef between all members of your list would happen if they attempted to convert me by force, because all of them are snobs and believe that everyone else on both lists save their particular clique is on a toboggan ride to Hell as they interpret Hell to be.

*Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"*

*He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What denomination?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"*

*Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic scum!" And I pushed him over.*

When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bike. Then I realized, the Lord doesn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me ...

*· So I'm at the wailing wall, standing there like a moron, with my harpoon."

·* A Mormon told me that they don't drink coffee. I said, "A cup of coffee every day gives you wonderful benefits." He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well, it keeps you from being Mormon ..."

*· I'm not Catholic, but I gave up picking my belly button for lint.

·* When I was a kid my dad would say, "Emo, do you believe in the Lord?" I'd say, "Yes!" He'd say, "Then stand up and shout Hallelujah!" So I would ... and I'd fall out of the roller coaster

*Sacred cows make the best hamburger.*


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I met a Zoroastrian in Victoria, Texas. That was a surprise.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

Well, the Bible says:
----------------
_"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." - Matthew 7:13-14_
---------------

I reckon most of us will go through the wide gate.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

NRA_guy said:


> Well, the Bible says:
> ----------------
> _"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." - Matthew 7:13-14_
> ---------------
> ...


You have a choice... However.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Interesting thread with great responses here.

I know God but I wasn't influenced by any people to believe or disbelieve in God. My parents gave me books to read and they made me go to a bunch of different christian denomination churches for Sunday school classes when I was a child growing up but the parents never went to any kind of church and they didn't believe in God. Their idea was that I had to find out and make up my mind for myself about the existence (or not) of God. I used to ask lots of questions about God in the Sunday schools but none of the denominations were able to provide me with proof of the existence of God.

Proof was what I wanted and faith alone wasn't good enough for me, so I grew up into my early 20's not knowing if God actually existed or not. But I kept an open mind about it and continued my quest by investigating a lot of non-Christian religions and esoteric or obscure belief systems from around the world.

When I was in my mid-20's I quite unexpectedly made the acquaintance of God and was given understanding of God's nature and shown irrefutable proof (to me) of God's existence as well as being given some corporeal gifts that I still have. That discovery of God happened after I had begun studying the history and methods of spiritual belief systems that were more than 10,000 years old. I didn't have help or influence from any people when that discovery came to me but I got what I was looking for and have been content with it for the following 50 years.

.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Paumon said:


> Interesting thread with great responses here.
> 
> I know God but I wasn't influenced by any people to believe or disbelieve in God. My parents gave me books to read and they made me go to a bunch of different christian denomination churches for Sunday school classes when I was a child growing up but the parents never went to any kind of church and they didn't believe in God. I used to ask lots of questions about God in the Sunday schools but none of the denominations were able to provide me with proof of the existence of God.
> 
> ...


If a person has truly found peace, no one has a right to try to rob them of that.

Add to it yes, but resolve to do no harm.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)




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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Tom Horn said:


> If a person has truly found peace, no one has a right to try to rob them of that.
> 
> Add to it yes, but resolve to do no harm.


I agree with that. Nobody should have their spiritual happiness destroyed by others.

.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Paumon said:


> I agree with that. Nobody should have their spiritual happiness destroyed by others.
> 
> .


True peace can be challenged. True peace cannot be destroyed by others.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Hiro said:


> True peace can be challenged. True peace cannot be destroyed by others.


In all things, if a person does the work and makes something their own rather than employing a hand-me-down acceptance of morals, values, philosophies, job, trade, basically anything, they have a power within themselves that can withstand nearly any and all opposition.

David had the power of God with him when he killed Goliath, however, you will notice that he fought him in his own way with methods that he had proven to work for him.




"1 Samuel 17:29 “Now what have I done?” said David. “Can’t I even speak?” 30 He then turned away to someone else and brought up the same matter, and the men answered him as before. 31 What David said was overheard and reported to Saul, and Saul sent for him.

32 David said to Saul, “Let no one lose heart on account of this Philistine; your servant will go and fight him.”

33 Saul replied, “You are not able to go out against this Philistine and fight him; you are only a young man, and he has been a warrior from his youth.”

34 But David said to Saul, “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, 35 I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it. 36 Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God. 37 The Lord who rescued me from the paw of the lion and the paw of the bear will rescue me from the hand of this Philistine.”

Saul said to David, “Go, and the Lord be with you.”

*38 Then Saul dressed David in his own tunic. He put a coat of armor on him and a bronze helmet on his head. 39 David fastened on his sword over the tunic and tried walking around, because he was not used to them.
*
*“I cannot go in these,” he said to Saul, “because I am not used to them.” So he took them off. 40 Then he took his staff in his hand, chose five smooth stones from the stream, put them in the pouch of his shepherd’s bag and, with his sling in his hand, approached the Philistine.*


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

NRA_guy said:


> I know that the easy reply is "judge not that ye be not judged", but I have some simple questions for Christians who say that the only way to heaven is through Jesus:
> 
> 1. What about the bazillions of people (such as the folks who live and die in China, North Korea, or India) without ever having heard of Christ?
> 
> ...


I want you to know that your question has burned in my heart for a long time prior to you asking it.

I have personally experienced far more human compassion from people who profess no relationship to Jesus than I have ever received from those who are warming a bench in a church every Sunday.











One of the greatest examples of my question of will those outside the boundaries of black and white interpretation make it to Heaven, is that of Uriah. 

In 2 Samuel 23:39 and Uriah the Hittite. 

Uriah was listed among the 37 mighty fighting men who served King Daivid during his 40 years as King of Israel.

2 Samuel11:1 In the spring, at the time when kings go off to war, David sent Joab out with the king’s men and the whole Israelite army. They destroyed the Ammonites and besieged Rabbah. But David remained in Jerusalem.

2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, 3 and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, “She is Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite.” 4 Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (Now she was purifying herself from her monthly uncleanness.) Then she went back home. 5 The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, “I am pregnant.”

*6 So David sent this word to Joab: “Send me Uriah the Hittite.” And Joab sent him to David. 7 When Uriah came to him, David asked him how Joab was, how the soldiers were and how the war was going. 8 Then David said to Uriah, “Go down to your house and wash your feet.” So Uriah left the palace, and a gift from the king was sent after him. 9 But Uriah slept at the entrance to the palace with all his master’s servants and did not go down to his house.

10 David was told, “Uriah did not go home.” So he asked Uriah, “Haven’t you just come from a military campaign? Why didn’t you go home?”

11 Uriah said to David, “The ark and Israel and Judah are staying in tents,[a] and my commander Joab and my lord’s men are camped in the open country. How could I go to my house to eat and drink and make love to my wife? As surely as you live, I will not do such a thing!”

12 Then David said to him, “Stay here one more day, and tomorrow I will send you back.” So Uriah remained in Jerusalem that day and the next. 13 At David’s invitation, he ate and drank with him, and David made him drunk. But in the evening Uriah went out to sleep on his mat among his master’s servants; he did not go home.*

14 In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. 15 In it he wrote, “Put Uriah out in front where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die.”

16 So while Joab had the city under siege, he put Uriah at a place where he knew the strongest defenders were. 17 When the men of the city came out and fought against Joab, some of the men in David’s army fell; moreover, Uriah the Hittite died.

18 Joab sent David a full account of the battle. 19 He instructed the messenger: “When you have finished giving the king this account of the battle, 20 the king’s anger may flare up, and he may ask you, ‘Why did you get so close to the city to fight? Didn’t you know they would shoot arrows from the wall? 21 Who killed Abimelek son of Jerub-Besheth[b]? Didn’t a woman drop an upper millstone on him from the wall, so that he died in Thebez? Why did you get so close to the wall?’ If he asks you this, then say to him, ‘Moreover, your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead.’”

22 The messenger set out, and when he arrived he told David everything Joab had sent him to say. 23 The messenger said to David, “The men overpowered us and came out against us in the open, but we drove them back to the entrance of the city gate. 24 Then the archers shot arrows at your servants from the wall, and some of the king’s men died. Moreover, your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead.”

25 David told the messenger, “Say this to Joab: ‘Don’t let this upset you; the sword devours one as well as another. Press the attack against the city and destroy it.’ Say this to encourage Joab.”

26 When Uriah’s wife heard that her husband was dead, she mourned for him. 27 After the time of mourning was over, David had her brought to his house, and she became his wife and bore him a son. But the thing David had done displeased the Lord.

after David impregnated Uriah's wife Bathsheba, he tried to cover it up by bring Uriah home from war on leave and enticing Uriah to bed his wife, however, Uriah had far too much integrity to engage in fooling around with his wife while the Israelite army was in the field of battle.

*11 Uriah said to David, “The ark and Israel and Judah are staying in tents,[a] and my commander Joab and my lord’s men are camped in the open country. How could I go to my house to eat and drink and make love to my wife? As surely as you live, I will not do such a thing!”*

So, David had him killed.

I did not find that Uriah was a convert to Judaism, therefore he was a gentile outsider.

By all accounts there was no biblical hope for him entering Paradise.

In my human mind, I can't help but believe that God saw what an outstanding example of loyalty and integrity was embodied by Uriah.

Therefore, it gives me much comfort in knowing that while the God I serve is exacting in enforcing his rules, He is also a God of justice and mercy.

So, I work at not attempting to push God off of his throne of judgment and take His place upon it.

I sleep easier at night doing it that way.


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## bubba42 (Jan 5, 2014)

Tom Horn said:


> I have lived at or near the bottom rung of society for most of my life. I and my family; both of origin and after marriage, were pretty much dirt floor poor. What I experienced could not be considered racism because we were white and our antagonists were also white. Have you ever watched "The Grapes of Wrath" with Henry Fonda? While it is both a movie and a work of fiction; it represents a life in America that this poor white boy can relate to.
> 
> The place I experienced the caste system in America the most was; in the "House of God." I have lived this: James 2:1 "My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?" I don't have to tell you that the only gold ring I owned was a thin wedding band. Even now, just by writing this to you, my mind is filled with memories that I have not entertained for many years and even now wish that I could escape from at this very moment.
> 
> ...


@TomHorn;

I am so sorry that you had to go through that, but there is a role for “the Church”, especially during periods of Christian persecution such as occurred during the first century, and what is beginning to occur now. Sadly, folks (like the poor preacher you mentioned) equate an ability to quote scripture with being a Christian. In the military, i had to move 11 times during a 28 year period (so a minimum of 11 churches - more if you add the ones i attended once until I found the best for us). 

In answer to your question, my personal relationship with God convinced me, not a church or church doctrine.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

bubba42 said:


> @TomHorn;
> 
> I am so sorry that you had to go through that, but there is a role for “the Church”, especially during periods of Christian persecution such as occurred during the first century, and what is beginning to occur now. Sadly, folks (like the poor preacher you mentioned) equate an ability to quote scripture with being a Christian. In the military, i had to move 11 times during a 28 year period (so a minimum of 11 churches - more if you add the ones i attended once until I found the best for us).
> 
> In answer to your question, my personal relationship with God convinced me, not a church or church doctrine.


Yes, there is and always has been a place for the Ecclesia, "The called out." There has never been a place for venom spewing denominationalism that hates all others, (in Jesus' name of course) who fail to lockstep to an exacting interpretation of an English translation (usually the KJV) of the Bible, which was originally written in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. 

Of course, they are not Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic scholars, well versed in the nuances of the languages. They are anything but.

I have been subjected to more hatred and indifference by those who are churched than by those who are not.

My faith in God is in spite of Christians rather than having been influenced by them.

Nearly all Christians that I have ever personally known in 65 years of living couldn't care less about those who are struggling spiritually, rather they feel it is their duty to throw them into the fires of Hell by their judgmental/cliquish callousness, indifference and nearly total lack of empathy.


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## NEPA (Feb 21, 2015)

That's a great quote about religion and fishing. It actually hits home for me because for years I have told people that I felt closer to God on a trout stream than sitting in church. Jesus had little respect for organized religion in his time, and organized religion continues to be the source of atrocities today. Revelation speaks of false prophets (people who claim to be religious but don't have a relationship with God). When Jesus speaks of His church he is referring to the faithful believers, not an organization.

Personally, I can't look at an oak tree and not feel the presence of God.

After many years I've finally found a church where all are accepted, and I feel comfortable. However, I still feel that He wants a personal relationship with me, and this is many times more important than my attendance at church.


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## 67drake (May 6, 2020)

A couple of the last few posts are spot on to what I feel too. I guess I look at church as a sort of tool to use. I’ve commented on my dislike for it at times. If I have a bad experience with a particular church, or one of the “Christians” attending, I don’t hold that against God. I can be a great Christian without ever setting foot in a church, AND vice versa. 
What I get out of church is hearing the gospel ( because sometimes I’m too lazy to read it myself) and hear the sermon. Sometimes I disagree with my pastors take on things during his sermon. I take what I need, and discard the rest.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)




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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Not to worry, if the parishioners start to doze off the preacher will whip out the fires of hell flame thrower to liven things up.

Power, control through fear/ignorance and squeezing money out of the flock is the name of the game.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

deleted... misunderstanding on my part


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

homesteadforty said:


> I have a question for you now...
> 
> How were you influenced into the perverse need to try to denigrate other peoples personal beliefs? Or were you not influenced and it just came naturally?


How am I denigrating the personal beliefs of others?

I do not know you, whether you are male or female.

How would I have an inkling about your personal beliefs?

If you have it in your heart, nothing can shake it out of you, if you don't, everything offends you.

Sacred cows make the best hamburger.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

Tom Horn said:


> How am I denigrating the personal beliefs of others?


My sincerest apologizes. In speed reading your thread I may have misjudged it. It was a little difficult to follow the differences in text and quotes in skimming. Upon closer look I fear that I am indeed mistaken.

My apologies again.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

homesteadforty said:


> My sincerest apologizes. In speed reading your thread I may have misjudged it. It was a little difficult to follow the differences in text and quotes in skimming. Upon closer look I fear that I am indeed mistaken.
> 
> My apologies again.


Thank you and I accept your apology.

I came up quite hard under religion.

I was 30 before I began to come out from under believing that God hated my guts.

They say that religion is for those who are afraid of going to Hell.

Spirituality is for those who have already been there.



> It should be understood that Frankl's ideas about religion and spirituality are considerably broader than most. His God is not the God of the narrow mind, not the God of one denomination or another. It is not even the God of institutional religion. God is very much a God of the inner human being, a God of the heart. Even the atheist or the agnostic, he points out, may accept the idea of transcendence without making use of the word "God." Allow me to let Frankl speak for himself:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Tom Horn said:


> Einstein Quote


Not comparing myself to Einstein, but I share his belief. To me, God is the answer to unanswered questions. God is what must exist for everything else to exist.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

MoonRiver said:


> Not comparing myself to Einstein, but I share his belief. To me, God is the answer to unanswered questions. God is what must exist for everything else to exist.


To me, it takes more faith to believe that there is no God than it does to be believe that He is.

A much as they hate to be shown it, Atheists have both a god and practice a religion. 

*god*
noun
Save Word
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\ ˈgäd also ˈgȯd \
plural gods
*Definition of god*
(Entry 1 of 2)

1God *: *the supreme or ultimate reality: such as
a*: *the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped (as in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism) as creator and ruler of the universeThroughout the patristic and medieval periods, Christian theologians taught that God created the universe …— Jame Schaefer… the Supreme Being or God, the personal form of the Ultimate Reality, is conceived by Hindus as having various aspects.— Sunita Pant Bansal
bChristian Science *: *the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit *: *infinite Mind

2or less commonly God *: *a being or object that is worshipped as having more than natural attributes and powersspecifically *: *one controlling a particular aspect or part of realityGreek gods of love and war

*3: a person or thing of supreme value*

4*: *a powerful rulerHollywood gods that control our movies' fates


*religion*
noun
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re·li·gion | \ ri-ˈli-jən \
*Definition of religion*

1*: *a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

2a(1)*: *the service and worship of God or the supernatural

(2)*: *commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2b*: *the state of a religiousa nun in her 20th year of religion

*3: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith*

4archaic *: *scrupulous conformity *: *CONSCIENTIOUSNESS


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## cintia (7 mo ago)

Tom Horn said:


> I have lived at or near the bottom rung of society for most of my life. I and my family; both of origin and after marriage, were pretty much dirt floor poor. What I experienced could not be considered racism because we were white and our antagonists were also white. Have you ever watched "The Grapes of Wrath" with Henry Fonda? While it is both a movie and a work of fiction; it represents a life in America that this poor white boy can relate to.
> 
> The place I experienced the caste system in America the most was; in the "House of God." I have lived this: James 2:1 "My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?" I don't have to tell you that the only gold ring I owned was a thin wedding band. Even now, just by writing this to you, my mind is filled with memories that I have not entertained for many years and even now wish that I could escape from at this very moment.
> 
> ...





Tom Horn said:


> I have lived at or near the bottom rung of society for most of my life. I and my family; both of origin and after marriage, were pretty much dirt floor poor. What I experienced could not be considered racism because we were white and our antagonists were also white. Have you ever watched "The Grapes of Wrath" with Henry Fonda? While it is both a movie and a work of fiction; it represents a life in America that this poor white boy can relate to.
> 
> The place I experienced the caste system in America the most was; in the "House of God." I have lived this: James 2:1 "My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?" I don't have to tell you that the only gold ring I owned was a thin wedding band. Even now, just by writing this to you, my mind is filled with memories that I have not entertained for many years and even now wish that I could escape from at this very moment.
> 
> ...


Wow. You are a writer, Sir. Thank you for sharing your story.


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## cintia (7 mo ago)

NRA_guy said:


> As an engineer, I tend to live in the real world. I look for logical explanations for everything. (Sometimes it ain't there.)
> 
> I also look at cause and effect and patterns.
> 
> ...


Have you read THE CASE FOR A CREATOR by Lee Strobel? If not, you may find it interesting.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

cintia said:


> Wow. You are a writer, Sir. Thank you for sharing your story.


Thank you and you are very welcome.


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## cintia (7 mo ago)

fireweed farm said:


> We were raised without any religious pressures or interference. We spent our spare time in nature as a family either skiing every single weekend, or camping and road trips when the snow melted. Home Sunday night for school the next morning. One set of grandparents went to church but it never came up. Sometimes I wish we had discussed it with them but only to understand them better, as people/family.
> Religion just wasn’t a thing. It also isn’t as big in Canada as it is in the US from what I can tell. It hasn’t reached its tentacles into contemporary politics like it has in the US.
> The more I read or witness the less likely I will ever be to join a religion. The historic atrocities committed around the word but in particular south and Central America.
> The residential schools run by the church in Canada. Watching American politicians easily lead voters in with their BS religious tripe, anti gay, anti science, so much hate. If you’re raised in it I suppose that is “normal”. But it’s not ok. From where I sit.
> From the outside looking in it’s broken.


From the outside looking in you only see what your news outlets allow you to see. Like here most news outlets are anti-religion, anti-Christianity, so you will only see their biased exaggerations, or out right lies now about many topics, including religion. There are also true stories of hate-filled people but they neglect to tell you hate comes from ALL peoples not just a particular group and the majority of the 350 million Americans, whether religious or not, are decent, law-abiding citizens. And news only shows you what is "News", meaning unusual, outrageous, horrible. Keep it in perspective.


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## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

cintia said:


> From the outside looking in you only see what your news outlets allow you to see. Like here most news outlets are anti-religion, anti-Christianity, so you will only see their biased exaggerations, or out right lies now about many topics, including religion. There are also true stories of hate-filled people but they neglect to tell you hate comes from ALL peoples not just a particular group and the majority of the 350 million Americans, whether religious or not, are decent, law-abiding citizens. And news only shows you what is "News", meaning unusual, outrageous, horrible. Keep it in perspective.


This conversation has nothing to do with the media. 
I can see all of the prejudice, bigotry, ignorance, and hate in real life, and even places like this board.
FWIW I don’t spend much time following “news”, and certainly not American style “news” which is not news at all, but rather a pundit/talking head and their opinions- if this is where you get any of your news- you have been bamboozled.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

fireweed farm said:


> This conversation has nothing to do with the media.
> I can see all of the prejudice, bigotry, ignorance, and hate in real life, and even places like this board.
> FWIW* I don’t spend much time following “news”, and certainly not American style “news” which is not news at all, but rather a pundit/talking head and their opinions- if this is where you get any of your news- you have been bamboozled.*


I agree with the above totally and I think most Canadians would say the exact same thing.

.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

cintia said:


> From the outside looking in you only see what your news outlets allow you to see. Like here most news outlets are anti-religion, anti-Christianity, so you will only see their biased exaggerations, or out right lies now about many topics, including religion. There are also true stories of hate-filled people but they neglect to tell you hate comes from ALL peoples not just a particular group and the majority of the 350 million Americans, whether religious or not, are decent, law-abiding citizens. And news only shows you what is "News", meaning unusual, outrageous, horrible. Keep it in perspective.


Each one of us sees what we want to see, through the eyes of our confirmation bias.









The media has always pandered to the least common denominator because they are selling information, (infotainment) for profit.









We as humans are floating in a cesspool of corruption.

That does not at all indicate that we are a part of the cesspool.

We only become one with the cesspool when we willingly open ourselves up and take the cesspool into ourselves.

Society works because the majority of people adhere to the rules and regulations of said society.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

cintia said:


> Have you read THE CASE FOR A CREATOR by Lee Strobel? If not, you may find it interesting.


I like Lee Strobel's books.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Posted 6/19/22 10:27 A.M. CDST

I don't begrudge anyone following whatever religion they feel answers their needs to prepare themselves for their expectations of what follows life in this realm provided their pursuit of their religious choice does not include over badgering me, expecting me to handle snakes with them or them detaching my head from my body to ensure their after life paradise or otherwise end my time early or deny me dignity at my end of life.

Personally however, I lost interest in the main religion of my area when I was 9 and the church preacher where my father was taking me to learn of the religion admonished me for missing a weekly service .

When my father and I explained that the week before my dog was sick with distemper and our vet had to put him down the night before, the preacher told me that was no excuse to miss services because there were no dogs in Heaven because they had no souls.

That was the last day I went to a house of worship to consider choosing a religion for myself and instead began studying beliefs of Ancients and American Indians that believed in animals having souls and meeting us in the Afterlife.

Decades later , I have seen many people and pets pass on ahead of me and hope that the people who passed found what they expected and if there is more than nothing at the end that I see both the people and animals that have passed before me.

Personally I believe the Afterlife will be much as this realm and as my father and grandfather said , Paradise wouldn't be paradise without a place to fish with a dog by your side and occasionally having to step around a pile of dog or horse poop as you walk down a rock free dirt road between open fields to a comfortable house with a tin roof. 

While not "going to church regular" or signing any church membership book , i have friends of various religions and no religion but if my friends, they all treat other folks as the Bible , other religious books or their mothers say to treat others with respect.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Shrek said:


> Posted 6/19/22 10:27 A.M. CDST
> 
> I don't begrudge anyone following whatever religion they feel answers their needs to prepare themselves for their expectations of what follows life in this realm provided their pursuit of their religious choice does not include over badgering me, expecting me to handle snakes with them or them detaching my head from my body to ensure their after life paradise or otherwise end my time early or deny me dignity at my end of life.
> 
> Personally however, I lost interest in the main religion of my area when I was 9 and the church preacher where my father was taking me to learn of the religion admonished me for missing a weekly service .


This is applicable in any religious doctrine.









Although not an adherent to native beliefs, this scene always moves me.


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