# Triple Crown Winner?



## CountryMom22 (Nov 27, 2014)

What a race! Hope you all got to watch the Preakness. What do you think? Could we finally be looking at another Triple Crown Winner? I think American Pharoah had a much more impressive race than he did during the Derby.

He really rose to the challenge, between running in really good company, that weather was crazy and to win going away? Really impressive!


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

We can always hope. I'd sure like to see another Triple Crown Winner.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

I did, great with the rain and wind, funny the jockey said I had to stay in front I didnt want to get mud on me!


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

We can hope. I know I'd sure like to see another TC winner in my lifetime, but the Belmont wipes out a lot of those who won the first two legs of it.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Teej said:


> We can hope. I know I'd sure like to see another TC winner in my lifetime, but the Belmont wipes out a lot of those who won the first two legs of it.


I agree. Hope to see another Triple Crown winner in my lifetime. I do love runners


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## cfuhrer (Jun 11, 2013)

I'm afraid our chances of a Triple Crown are slim unless a breeder goes back to breeding old-style horses and trainers go back to training them to meet the challenge.

Today's thoroughbreds just aren't built and conditioned to go the distance.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I agree he looked good but then again his challengers simply gave up. They might not do that in better weather. I was hoping that Tale of Verve would reach him just to see if he would let him pass or not.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

I thought he ran better today than in the Derby, too. Maybe the trainers have him peaking at just the right time.

I guess there was a big kerfuffle over the use of the whip on him in the Derby? It was brought up a lot during the pre race. He got a lot of taps during his Derby run but the jockey didn't seem to be using extreme force behind the whip, just a normal swing and keeping after him until he gave his best effort. And, it worked.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

Color me skeptical.

A lot of bumping and blocking going on yesterday in the stretch for anybody who could have challenged. AP looks like a "good" horse, but I don't think he's a "great" horse. (He sure looks like he rates nice though. Probably a dream to ride. They've done a nice job bringing him along.)


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I was pretty impressed with Tale of Verve's run. He was still gaining even after getting his surge stopped for a second by another horse drifting into his path. 
But the true test comes when a leading horse is challenged- does he give his all to win. With all the mess of weather and bumping and slipping, it's hard to say.

But I have to say that the brief view I had of Tale of Verve before he was mounted and in motion made my heart go pitty pat. He had the most elegant coupling I have seen in years. When he started so slow, I thought "so much for pretty" then he just came steadily on from last to second.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

Just have to wait and see. AP seems able to keep his present racing group at bay, though he is not setting any speed records. So far they haven't been able to do that last bit in catching him at the finish. As said, in this company, he is winning. Another group of horses? He might be beat. Some years there just is no "great" one, or a very good/great horse is forever overshadowed by another slightly better horse, as with Alydar and Affirmed, years ago.

Secretariat, he was a "freak" and there is no comparing him to other horses. Loved watching him run!! Man O' War, same thing in being a freak, and you just can't beat them.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

goodhorse, when you're mentioning the greats don't forget Seabiscuit who beat TC winner War Admiral in a match race. They say his heart was 5 lbs. heavier than a typical thoroughbred. War Admiral was a son of Man O' War and Seabiscuit was a grandson. I also just saw on allbreed that he was only 15.1 3/4. 

I don't really follow thoroughbred racing that closely but am a fan of watching the big 3 races. I wonder if any of todays or recent history thoroughbreds that make it to the track are that small.


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## CountryMom22 (Nov 27, 2014)

Most of the horses running today seem to fall in the 15.3-16.2 hands height range. We occasionally see some bigger but the increase in body weight and pounding on their bodies seems to break them down. Smaller than that, they don't have an equal stride length to the other horses and have to work twice as hard. That being said, there is always the exception to the rule.


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## farmmaid (Jan 13, 2003)

The rules need to be changed. A horse should have to run all three races. Not be a spoiler if you want a true TC winner.


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## GREEN_ALIEN (Oct 17, 2004)

farmmaid said:


> The rules need to be changed. A horse should have to run all three races. Not be a spoiler if you want a true TC winner.


Agreed! Fresh horses have taken down quite a few TC contenders at belmont over the years.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

GREEN_ALIEN said:


> Agreed! Fresh horses have taken down quite a few TC contenders at belmont over the years.


I don't know if that wasn't true of earlier races too. I've never seen a stat on it.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Here is a slice of racing history. Secretariat breaks track record by over 2 seconds, far ahead of the pack.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfCMtaNiMDM[/ame]

Actually all three of the 1973 races are exciting to watch. KY Derby is close, then one where Secretariat is dead last.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

Man O' War didn't run in the Kentucky Derby, but did run and win both the Preakness and Belmont legs of the Triple Crown. It has always been legal to enter horses in any one or all of the races making up the Triple Crown.

This is horseracing folks. The best horse wins on that day, he has to meet and beat any horses entered in the race. Fresh or tired, he runs to win, that is how the game is played.

This way of choosing the best of the best, has been in place since the Kentucky Derby started, then had the other races added to make the Triple Crown series for 3yr olds. Horses do win the Triple Crown, just has been a while. Maybe what is being put out to race now, doesn't have the quality needed to be the big winner these days. Nice horses, but lacking the body or "fire in the belly" needed to beat everyone else at those distances. People watching the races do get their favorites, want them to win, but being popular doesn't make them great race horses.

Breeders develop and choose animals to race, that fit the races being put on for competitors. There really are not that many longer races these days, like the Triple Crown. Perhaps the breeding efforts are aimed towards shorter distance horses now. So the crop of colts each year are just not built like colt crops of the past, not aimed at long distance racing careers because they won't be the winners people want.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

goodhors, I agree with you. Today's horses, it would seem, are not being bred to run the distance but rather the sprints. They wear out before they get near the finish line on longer distance races, and in my experience have more injuries as well. Just my experience, I am not entering a debate! 

haypoint, thank you for posting that video! I always, always cry when that big boy takes off away from Sham and runs his race. I love Secretariat, I have a TB mare that is a great, great grand daughter of his and looks much like him. I love her heart, her emotion, and wish she could have run her race as did her 4th sire. A running horse is pure poetry.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

To be a Triple Crown winner, in my opinion, a horse ought to beat all comers on all three races and show his (or hers) complete dominance over the 3 yr olds of that year. That's what makes it so special. Thanks for posting that race... I love watching Secretariat's races, what a wonderful horse!


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## CountryMom22 (Nov 27, 2014)

Ditto Granny Carol, a horse should have to beat all comers on the day to prove his/her greatness. Being tired, or beaten by a fresher horse is an excuse. He needs to be the best on the day, every time he steps onto the track. If beaten by another, he didn't deserve to be the Triple Crown Winner. That's what makes the Triple Crown so special. If we had a triple crown winner every 3-5 years, it wouldn't be special.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

Absolutely agree. I don't care who runs what race - a Triple Crown winner has to smash all comers 3 times in a row and be the overwhelming BEST of that year's 3 year old crop.

I don't understand folks who want to change the rules. Do they want a Triple Crown winner every year? It only cheapens the title and makes it worthless. 

An outgrowth of the "participation award" mentality. Life ain't fair. Suck it up and be the best.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Haypoint, thanks for posting the Secretariat video. I love watching it and sometimes it just chokes me up to see what an amazing run he made that day. 

The Secretariat movie was pretty good, too, love that part when Eddie Sweat says:
Big Red done ate his breakfast today........

I have heard that really happened, it wasn't just made up by Hollywood. It rings true because who knows the horse better than his groom/caretaker.


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

American Pharoah has a fine chance considering how much better he is than the rest of the crop. That has been apparent since Texas Red won the Juvenile.
It is good to see that Bob has him back at Churchill too. Last year the Shermans lost Chrome to the schedule and press. That won't bother him in Louisville. 

I will say that Mubtaahij, the dubai horse, has a good shot. Can't blame him for his run last out, considering how Churchill is not much like Meydan. Belmont, on the other hand is - hey, they call it Big Sandy - and I've never known an Irishbred not to take to 12f.

My concern is with his owner. I've met him a few times before and can't say I care for him. Too many court cases over cash, though he wins most. Not to mention that he won't run his horses, like Bodemeister, Pioneerof the Nile, and Eskendereya, but when they lack stud credentials, won't stop, like Paynter. I love Horse Racing, but it's not fair to ask fans to enjoy the sport when the only thing that races past 3 years are turf sprinters... 

As to those who call for a rule change, the same was called for in the early 70's after the 25 year drought. Then Secretariat, Slew, and Affirmed put away the crown in less than 5 years. In '79 when the Bid was going for it, they were saying it was too easy.
The Triple Crown isn't supposed to happen every year - that's why we have the Eclipse Awards, Dubai Carnival, Hall of Fame, and Breeder's Cup.


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

Teej said:


> goodhorse, when you're mentioning the greats don't forget Seabiscuit who beat TC winner War Admiral in a match race. They say his heart was 5 lbs. heavier than a typical thoroughbred. War Admiral was a son of Man O' War and Seabiscuit was a grandson. I also just saw on allbreed that he was only 15.1 3/4.
> 
> I don't really follow thoroughbred racing that closely but am a fan of watching the big 3 races. I wonder if any of todays or recent history thoroughbreds that make it to the track are that small.


There are several, actually. Shared Belief, who is currently on the sidelines but was very nearly 3yo champ last year isn't over 15.3, while Princess of Sylmar, who won the KY Oaks and a few other stakes in New York last year and the year before couldn't have have been 16hh. Godolphin runs a nice mare by Daaher whose name is escaping me now, but she was undefeated last year and just ran third in the Distaff to La Verdad.
Though you get the big ones like Will Take Charge, Dortmund, and Zenyatta, the small ones are by no means rare.

A lot of you guys are saying our horses can't get the distances. That's hardly true, the difference is we no longer breed to race, and we no longer run back as quick. Ever since oil money inflated the bloodstock market back in the mid 80s, the outfits have been breeding for the sales barn. The Whitneys, Vanderbilts, Phipps, Belmonts, Bradleys, Wrights, and Woodwards are gone, significantly scaled back, or no longer breed for the main track. Money has ruined the sport, with horses retiring so quickly. Though the Zayats, Farishes, WinStar, Stronach, and other such outfits have come to dominate the sport, few of them care enough for its health to keep a horse on the track and pay the insurance costs.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

Thanks for the info Farmer2be.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Farmer2b, I could talk to you for hours about racing, I love my runners and wish I was more involved in racing, but I am on the back end of it...the aftermath of unsuccessful runners. But I do wish I could be on the trackside someday. Thank you for sharing what you know.


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

aoconnor1 said:


> Farmer2b, I could talk to you for hours about racing, I love my runners and wish I was more involved in racing, but I am on the back end of it...the aftermath of unsuccessful runners. But I do wish I could be on the trackside someday. Thank you for sharing what you know.


Seeing as you're from Texas, tune into NBC sports a little early Belmont Stakes day. Besides the other big handicaps, there is an undefeated Texan filly named Promise Me Silver who should be running in the G1 Acorn.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Farmer2B said:


> Seeing as you're from Texas, tune into NBC sports a little early Belmont Stakes day. Besides the other big handicaps, there is an undefeated Texan filly named Promise Me Silver who should be running in the G1 Acorn.


Thanks for the heads up! I will tune in early and root for the filly

I thought the owner name of Promise Me Silver sounded familiar, he is over on the east side of Dallas, we are on the west side. I don't know him, but know the name in this area. I will definitely watch that race...


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Oh, that was wonderful! I missed watching it live, but just saw a recording. That was very well ridden too, AP was rated for the first half of the race, you could see his head was up, steady and he was so relaxed his lower lip was flapping! 

Then about halfway he woke up and the jockey gave him a couple of taps and he was off to get his solid victory. That's the way it ought to be! A good horse just outrunning all the competition. Very nice, very satisfying.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Amazing!!!! Way to go American Pharoah!!!


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

It was a convincing victory. So much for those wanting to make it easier because it can't be done.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

Awesome race! I'm glad I got to see him run all 3 races.


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## CountryMom22 (Nov 27, 2014)

Well, the question was asked, and American Pharoah answered!. There is no doubt, he is exceptional, and deserves to be Horse of The Year as well. 

Greatness doesn't come around often, but we saw it today.


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## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

Great race! Love watching these horses run! CUDOS to AP!
I read somewhere that a horses heart will pump 55 gallons of blood a minute in a race like this. That's unbelievable!


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Farmer2B said:


> Seeing as you're from Texas, tune into NBC sports a little early Belmont Stakes day. Besides the other big handicaps, there is an undefeated Texan filly named Promise Me Silver who should be running in the G1 Acorn.


That was too bad she stumbled and clipped heels with that other horse. Hope she's ok.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

CountryMom22 said:


> Greatness doesn't come around often, but we saw it today.


And this is why I don't think the rules should be changed. The Triple Crown should be difficult and should be a combination of speed, stamina, training ... and as with all racing, a good dash of luck as well.

That's what makes horse racing exceptional.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

SFM in KY said:


> And this is why I don't think the rules should be changed. The Triple Crown should be difficult and should be a combination of speed, stamina, training ... and as with all racing, a good dash of luck as well.
> 
> That's what makes horse racing exceptional.


Beyond those factors you mentioned it also seems that those special horses seem to thrive when combined with a jockey that truly works with the horse.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I agree wr. I was particularly struck by how the horse and rider worked together on that, how relaxed AP was in the beginning, no wasted energy fussing between him and the jockey. He almost looked like he was out for a canter until the half and when the jockey asked him near the end to really pick it up, he opened up that nice lead and won it going away. Very satisfying race. They made it look easy.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

GrannyCarol said:


> I agree wr. I was particularly struck by how the horse and rider worked together on that, how relaxed AP was in the beginning, no wasted energy fussing between him and the jockey. He almost looked like he was out for a canter until the half and when the jockey asked him near the end to really pick it up, he opened up that nice lead and won it going away. Very satisfying race. They made it look easy.


I also noticed how relaxed AP was. The jockey really stayed off the whip in this race, as opposed to the Kentucky Derby where the whip was used extensively. I was glad to see how well AP did running his own race, though the jockey did encourage him into a breakaway run at the end, it was much better than the Derby.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

How about this? The jockey Victor Espinoza donated Belmont Stakes winnings to charity.
How neat was that?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/horseracingspecial/victor-espinoza-donated-belmont-stakes-winnings-to-charity/ar-BBkOxUE


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

Good race, but I wish Victor would've asked the horse a little sooner. It would've really be a treat to see them win by open lengths.

American Pharoah was so much the best, it was unbelievable. After they went the half in 48 and he had his ears pricked, I knew it was over. In dirt racing, especially when they go longer, horses ALWAYS decelerate. This horse went 22 in the first quarter, and then from the half on ran each quarter faster than the one before. That he came home in 2:26 and change really is impressive, especially what with how easily he did it.

If he runs again, sounds like they will hit the Jersey shore in early August for the Haskell, and then try the Woodward as a prep for the Classic which is at Keeneland this year.

About Promise Me Silver, it's unfortunate the streak was ended, but Curalina was working great up to the race, actually outworking Competitive Edge (1-5 fav earlier on the card). I would think they might run her back at the Churchill fall meet or hit a few of the Oaks hosted in the midwest.

--

About him being Horse of the Year, I don't think so. What with Shared Belief, California Chrome, and Tonalist running this year, plus Palace Malice... he picked the wrong year.

About horses liking certain jockeys, certainly! Although there were those like the great Domino who hated theirs. Domino had to be blindfolded when he saw Taral, or he'd try to kill him. That being said, Taral was notorious for his freedom with the whip, and the spurs that used to be allowed.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Farmer2B said:


> Good race, but I wish Victor would've asked the horse a little sooner. It would've really be a treat to see them win by open lengths.
> 
> American Pharoah was so much the best, it was unbelievable. After they went the half in 48 and he had his ears pricked, I knew it was over. In dirt racing, especially when they go longer, horses ALWAYS decelerate. This horse went 22 in the first quarter, and then from the half on ran each quarter faster than the one before. That he came home in 2:26 and change really is impressive, especially what with how easily he did it.


Yes, it was immediately before the half that you could see Victor ask for more. That it was so visible when I watched the race again was pretty cool, it was like AP went from la-de-dah to LETS KICK THIS THING in a blink. I knew he had it then, i just knew it inside. He was a machine...awesome!


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I think he will develop a mystique like Secretariat. It's too bad he goes to breed in Ireland (.?) I wish he could bring his presence to Kentucky and do wonders for PR. 
I wonder if they will keep him racing until the breeder's cup as they did not retain the rights. But I'm sure the sale contract specifies.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

arabian knight said:


> How about this? The jockey Victor Espinoza donated Belmont Stakes winnings to charity.
> How neat was that?
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/hor...belmont-stakes-winnings-to-charity/ar-BBkOxUE



I thought that was pretty classy.


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

where I want to said:


> I think he will develop a mystique like Secretariat. It's too bad he goes to breed in Ireland (.?) I wish he could bring his presence to Kentucky and do wonders for PR.
> I wonder if they will keep him racing until the breeder's cup as they did not retain the rights. But I'm sure the sale contract specifies.


While it's possible he'll shuttle to Ballydoyle, Coolmore owns Ashford Stud in Kentucky, and what with the American interest, it's unlikely they'll move him. That being said, I've had the pleasure of touring both and each are top notch. The only thing that puzzled me was that neither stud offered turnout to their studs.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

This is neat. A side by side video/split screen. If you have stereo speakers the left speaker is the left screen (American Pharoah) and the right side video comes out the right side speaker (Secretariat). cool 

*American Pharoah vs. Secretariat: Who Would Win?*

[YOUTUBE] ?v=eT50hQINVrI[/YOUTUBE]

It will be a very long time before their is another horse to match Secretariat. IMO


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## CJBegins (Nov 20, 2009)

That video gave me goose bumps.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

Obviously if each raced the exact race Secretariat would have won because he had a better time. It makes you wonder though if put them against each other what the outcome would be. If either had been pushed from the start of the race and were still being pushed at the end would they have ran out of steam? Would the track record be an even shorter time? Would the modern day surfaces help or hinder Secretariat? So many variables when it comes to trying to compare 2 horses of 2 different eras.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

I would bet on Secretariat every time. Almost impossible to beat the Freak-of-Nature kind of horse as he was. Huge heart, huge stride, and able to do that stride more efficiently than other horses. His proportions were a topic of interest, when the Artists started doing statues of him. Can't remember the article, but he was "not normal" or even close to average of other good racing horses in his proportions.

He just did everything BETTER!

Glad that AP got to win the Triple Crown, but I don't think he is 'the Quality' of horse Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Affirmed and Alydar were. 

AP is the best in this group of 3yr olds this year. Congratulations to him! He is the winner so we are glad for him. He did a lovely run at the finish, fun to watch. I am still looking at overall speed times and he was not as fast, with the modern surface advantages on a good track this time. No mud. He didn't have anyone else in the group that pushed him HARD for much of the race, then swapped for another horse to push him hard to the finish as other horses have had to deal with. Wonderful, SKILLED jockey did a great job riding the race, managed horse so he finished first without wearing horse out. Earned his big money pay!

It was a fun race, made for a nice finish to the Triple Crown this year. I am glad for the horse, he will be famous in history. I expect we will see him run some more before he retires to the breeding farm. THEN he will need to prove he can pass on those good genes to continue being famous in the future. 

AP just doesn't "grab me" like watching Secretariat racing always did and still does when I see his films. Just 'more special' to me, so he sets a high standard for other horses to measure up to. But Freaks are like that, One-Of-A-Kind, no more like them.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I suspect Secretariat would beat American Pharaoh given a straight up fair race too. However, AP was not pushed to his top performance either, but ridden very wisely to reserve his energy for the end. I think he could have run it faster, it was not a really hard run for him. I just love Secretariat though, can't watch his videos without getting all choked up about him, he was so special. 

American Pharaoh is a lovely horse and did what he had to do in rain or sun and its great to see that a horse doesn't need special help to win the Triple Crown. He ran a great race and won it straight up. Congratulations to him for it! I have no complaints about him at all.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Did anyone else notice that APs owner walked right past Penny Chenery after AP won? The man escorting the owner tried to stop the owner long enough to acknowledge her, he barely gave her a howdy do. That made me a little mad, but the guy probably had no idea who anyone was right at that time. However, if I was able to instantly recognize her in a crowd of that size as he walked past her, I would have thought he would have as well. 

Secretariat is my all time favorite race horse, ever. No one will ever come close to him. He was a special, special boy. I have a grand daughter of Storm Cat, she looks so much like Big Red, and she is huge like he was. I am blessed!!!


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

aoconnor1 said:


> Did anyone else notice that APs owner walked right past Penny Chenery after AP won? The man escorting the owner tried to stop the owner long enough to acknowledge her, he barely gave her a howdy do. That made me a little mad, but the guy probably had no idea who anyone was right at that time. However, if I was able to instantly recognize her in a crowd of that size as he walked past her, I would have thought he would have as well.
> 
> Secretariat is my all time favorite race horse, ever. No one will ever come close to him. He was a special, special boy. I have a grand daughter of Storm Cat, she looks so much like Big Red, and she is huge like he was. I am blessed!!!


I thought that after the man intercepted the group , someone turned around and shook hands with her. But even if not, winning a Triple Crown would make anyone's very distracted. 
My favorite race horse was John Henry, mostly because the characteristic I most admire is endurance, a virtue anyone can aspire to.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

where I want to said:


> I thought that after the man intercepted the group , someone turned around and shook hands with her. But even if not, winning a Triple Crown would make anyone's very distracted.
> My favorite race horse was John Henry, mostly because the characteristic I most admire is endurance, a virtue anyone can aspire to.


True, and I know it had to have been an unbelievable time! I was literally jumping up and down and yelling like a wild woman, Im sure the owner of AP was about 100 times more excited than I was!


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Part of the joy if that is the number of times a horse took the first two legs and failed the third. After a while I hoped someone would do it but it was very tempered by experience. In truth I did not believe it until he was pulling away at the last.


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

aoconnor1 said:


> Did anyone else notice that APs owner walked right past Penny Chenery after AP won? The man escorting the owner tried to stop the owner long enough to acknowledge her, he barely gave her a howdy do. That made me a little mad, but the guy probably had no idea who anyone was right at that time. However, if I was able to instantly recognize her in a crowd of that size as he walked past her, I would have thought he would have as well.
> 
> Secretariat is my all time favorite race horse, ever. No one will ever come close to him. He was a special, special boy. I have a grand daughter of Storm Cat, she looks so much like Big Red, and she is huge like he was. I am blessed!!!


Bob did turn around and talk to her... Steve Haskin wrote about it a few days ago


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