# Pour on Wormer--don't pour? Now I'm really confused



## CountryHaven (Jul 17, 2005)

Okay, in the way past when I had goats I'd never used the pour on wormer. I'd read a lot on here recently though and seen it used in several suggestions so I picked some up. Farm and Fleet didn't have the smaller bottle of Ivomec that I could afford, only the huge bottle that I couldn't, so I picked up a different brand--still says for cattle, sheep, goats, so I figured it would be fine. Kicking myself for not waiting because I went to my local Big R on the way home and THEY had the smaller bottle of ivomec pour on. Figures... anyway.

I JUST now read in another thread Feral Nature said NEVER pour anything on the goat...

How do you give pour on wormer then? Orally? That seems kind of scary for something labeled to be used topically.

The main reason I bought it is because three of my horses this spring turned up with lice. I haven't had a lice problem in about 6 years, now I'm seeing them... maybe this weird hot/cold/hot/cold winter we had. I don't know. Anyway I've only found them on 3 of the horses, but I'm treating EVERYBODY. I know goat lice and horse lice are different species and supposedly species specific but dang it, I want to be safe on this. Lice are icky and cause such a drain.

So please help... how do I 'apply' this pour on wormer for the goats?


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## Janis Sauncy (Apr 11, 2006)

I didn't see the posting from Feral Nature about the pour-on Ivomec but I have used it successfully and safely for years on my goats. I triple the dose.

Some people prefer giving the injectable orally to goats. I've never done it that way but it apparently it is safe, also.

I do the pour-on in the spring when the goats have spent a long, wet (around here) winter cuddling and huddling together inside, exchanging the crawling critters. I then do the paste (alternating between Ivermectin and SafeGuard/Pancur the rest of the time).

Janis


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## CountryHaven (Jul 17, 2005)

Thanks Janis, yeah I've used the paste before, just never the pour on. The mentioning of not pouring on the pour on was in a different thread, not specific to that topic necessarily. It scared me because I was just about to do that very thing this afternoon. LOL

Edited to add: also thanks for the dosage tip. I didnt know about tripling the dose, I was just going to go by the recommendation on the bottle.


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## Janis Sauncy (Apr 11, 2006)

Tami:

I'm sure some people will question my dosage. But I've used it on all sizes of goats, pygmy and dairy, and never had a problem. I think there must be a lot of leeway, too, because I'm just guessing at the weights as I'm doing it. I'm sure some of my goats have gotten more than that dosage because I'm guessing their weight more than what it really is, but I've never had an adverse reaction to it. (Although I did overdose a cat with the paste one time......it's ok; he recovered but it was scary.)

The pour-on cleans them up nicely, inside and out.

Janis


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## SherrieT (Aug 15, 2004)

I have Ivomec Eprinex and I think it was in the thread about my new little doelings that Feral said never pour on a goat

I am so terrible in math and conversions. 

If the dosage for cattle says 1ml/22lbs of weight and my needles syringe in a 1cc, then how much to I put on them????

They are about 5, 7 and 10 lbs

I am also getting some Sulmet today. I have also been advised to treat for cocci. But told to give the dosage straight and not diluted. Is this correct

I am also having problems getting 2 of them to take the bottle, but will ask about that on a separate thread

Sherrie


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## Janis Sauncy (Apr 11, 2006)

Sherrie:

I would hold off on using pour-on on tiny babies. I'm not even sure I would worm them at this stage. (Someone else might have a different opinion.)

I think getting them fed and used to the bottle nipple, etc. is your first priority.

I know I've treated little babies for coccidiosis before but someone else is going to have to give you advice on that one because I don't remember what I did. I know, if I suspect it in my herd, I put it in their drinking water.

Janis


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

CountryHaven said:


> How do you give pour on wormer then? Orally?


Yes, pour-ons are used orally in goats.


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## caroline00 (Nov 10, 2002)

ok, now I am confused...
I thought you gave pour ons orally (by mouth)
now I am being told topically (poured on)
which is it? I came here to check cydectin doses for goats...


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## Janis Sauncy (Apr 11, 2006)

I don't think I have ever heard of giving "pour-ons" orally. However, I know people do give the injectable by mouth.

I'm not sure what the dosage adjustment would be for that.

Janis


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

caroline00 said:


> ok, now I am confused...
> I thought you gave pour ons orally (by mouth)
> now I am being told topically (poured on)
> which is it? I came here to check cydectin doses for goats...


Yes, pour-ons are given orally in goats. Cydectin cattle pour-on is 1cc per 22-25 lbs., given *orally*. It works very well and is safe.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Janis Sauncy said:


> I don't think I have ever heard of giving "pour-ons" orally. However, I know people do give the injectable by mouth.
> 
> I'm not sure what the dosage adjustment would be for that.
> 
> Janis


Yes, both topical and injectable wormers are given orally in goats. Dosage on Cydectin at least, is the same as the cattle dosage on the bottle, one cc per 22 lbs. Some give one cc per 25 lbs.


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## caroline00 (Nov 10, 2002)

Thanks!

I am about to worm with cydectin. I have one going to a livestock sale on May 1st. Do I go ahead and worm her or not?


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

caroline00 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I am about to worm with cydectin. I have one going to a livestock sale on May 1st. Do I go ahead and worm her or not?


For her sake it would be a good idea. You don't know whats going to happen to her after she goes through the sale ring, so at least she will have been wormed.  
Oh, on a humorous note, some of my does are Cydectin junkies and will suck it out of the syringe and look for more.


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## cseger1 (Mar 23, 2007)

we do pour-on orally, as well.
Eprinex - 1 ml per 10 pounds weight.
No problems yet.

Goats metabloize far faster than other animals - that is why it is not only safe - but often reccommendedthat they get injectibles and pur ons at higher than cattle/sheep label doses,, and by mouth.


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## CountryHaven (Jul 17, 2005)

ozark_jewels said:


> Yes, pour-ons are used topically in goats.



Did you mean orally? Later on in the thread you say orally. So what does would I give? I bought Atroban Delice--pour-on insecticide.

Active ingredients: Permethrin: 3-(phenoxyphenyl) methy (+/-)-cis, trans-e-(2.2-dichloroethenyl)-2.2-dimenthylcyclopropanecarboxylate... 1%
Other ingredients (not listed) 99%.

Directions for use on bottle are: 1/4 fluid oz per 50 lbs of wt up to a maximum of 3 fl oz for any one animal. Pour along back


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## Feral Nature (Feb 21, 2007)

Good morning...and I am glad Emily (Ozark jewels) is here this morning. Regarding the pour-on eprinex...I do not want to pass on any incorrect information. In the other thread, I stated that I simply did not know about this particlar por-on and I went looking for info.

I use Cydectin as my wormer of choice...that is "Cydectin Pour-on wormer for cattle". I give it ORALLY to goats at 1cc per 22-25 lbs. It is purple and smells like kerosine. It is not poured on goats.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

CountryHaven said:


> Did you mean orally? Later on in the thread you say orally. So what does would I give?


OOPS!!! Yes, I meant orally!! I'll go back and fix that, sorry!!


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## CountryHaven (Jul 17, 2005)

Oh Diane, I know and I didn't mean to 'call you out' or anything. I just got worried because I was going to follow the bottle directions this afternoon, and then I read your post. I mentioned you by name so folks might have read that and known what I was talking about is all. Please don't think I meant to infer anything.


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## CountryHaven (Jul 17, 2005)

Emily before you leave... I did not buy Eprinex because they didn't have the more affordable bottle, only the big huge one. I bought the stuff I wrote about a couple posts up. Can you give me any idea of how much, or if THAT is safe orally. It's not the same thing apparently.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

CountryHaven said:


> Did you mean orally? Later on in the thread you say orally. So what does would I give? I bought Atroban Delice--pour-on insecticide.
> 
> Active ingredients: Permethrin: 3-(phenoxyphenyl) methy (+/-)-cis, trans-e-(2.2-dichloroethenyl)-2.2-dimenthylcyclopropanecarboxylate... 1%
> Other ingredients (not listed) 99%.
> ...


Oh, if its for lice.....then it is given topically! I don't know what would happen if you gave a delouser by mouth.....
As far as I know, only topical *wormers* are given orally......please give the delice stuff topically and by the dose reccomended on the bottle.


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## CountryHaven (Jul 17, 2005)

Also, one more question... just in case this particular product would be 'questionable' to give orally... does it HURT them to do it topically (poured on) or just not as effective because of their higher matabolism?


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## CountryHaven (Jul 17, 2005)

Thanks Emily. It was all lumped together with the Ivomec and stuff and I thought it was the same thing. Actually though since lice was the problem I was worried about here at this particular moment that's what I was looking on the bottle to see if it treated it. I really didn't even realize it was 'soley' a de-louser. I will buy Eprinex next time if it breaks me. LOL and I'll give that orally. I've been using the Ivermectin paste for wormer when needed though.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

CountryHaven said:


> Emily before you leave... I did not buy Eprinex because they didn't have the more affordable bottle, only the big huge one. I bought the stuff I wrote about a couple posts up. Can you give me any idea of how much, or if THAT is safe orally. It's not the same thing apparently.


The stuff you describe a couple posts back, isn't a wormer, its a delouser product....so I would follow directions on the bottle. It would be given topically, not orally. Only give pour-on *wormers* orally....not delice products. I'm sorry if my previous post confused you...got to get my head on straight today.  
And of course, if your actually needing to *worm* your goats...the stuff you described won't work, you'll need to buy an actual dewormer.


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## Feral Nature (Feb 21, 2007)

CountryHaven said:


> Oh Diane, I know and I didn't mean to 'call you out' or anything. I just got worried because I was going to follow the bottle directions this afternoon, and then I read your post. I mentioned you by name so folks might have read that and known what I was talking about is all. Please don't think I meant to infer anything.


Oh, no problem, I didn't feel "called out" at all. I just did not want to add to any confusion....LOL! I have used ivermectin in the past, but only the injectable form..either by inj. or orally. I have never poured anything on a goat.

I use cydectin pour-on orally 1cc per 22-25lbs for adults, and valbazen 1cc per 10lbs orally for kids. Right now, that is all I use.

In some cases kids get cydectin if suspected of picking up worms from adult pens. Kids never penned with adults ever are fine wormed just with valbazen.

(All kids need valbazen as it get s tapes...as does safeguard and both these white wormers are safe)


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## CountryHaven (Jul 17, 2005)

Yeah, thanks again Emily. Right now I just wanted to make sure no creepy crawly things would bother the goats. At this moment it's not a problem, but like I said earlier I found a few of my horses with lice and I want to treat everyone to prevent a huge problem 'just in case'.

Would you do that with the goats? Or wait until you actually saw signs of lice? Can you overdo something like lice prevention and actually cause the type of problems with that as you can with overworming?


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Feral Nature said:


> Good morning...and I am glad Emily (Ozark jewels) is here this morning.


Don't be to sure on that.....I'm just adding to the confusion by using the word "topical" when I meant "oral"......just yell at me, please!


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

If anyone spent even 5 mintues on a site that tests wormers on goats...like Texas A&M and most of the University sites, they would know that ALL wormers are give to goats orally, by mouth. Pour-on's, injectables and orals. To not know this means you have not done your homework, and certainly should not be on a list giving out poor information.

Pouring on wormers can cause neurological problems in goats because their hide is not as tough as a cattle, plus most folks do alot to goats at one time...vaccinate, delice, and worm, do all this and you will have a reaition pouring on wormer.

Ivermectin in any form should never be used in infant goatlings, their blood brain barrier is not formed yet, not mature enough to handle a wormer like Ivermectin. Why the hoeegers information on using Ivermectin on kids 4 days old is just plain scarry!

When someone is giving you worming information ask them: What worms is that wormer killing in your herd? What were your worm egg numbers of that worm before and after you used the wormer. Because what you will find is that go by "my goats look good" more than fecal samples or Famacha. Using a pouron at double or triple the dosage even poured on is once again just scarry! Pour on wormers are used at bottle dosages ORALLY in goats...Cydectin 1cc per 22 pounds, just like labeled, only instead of poured on you put it in their mouth, plus Eprienix is just plain too expensive. We also have no idea if the no milkwithdrawal of using any of this orally, since the milk withdrawal times are for cows poured on, and not at double the dose, is true or not for our goats. Heeding 48 hours is pretty common practice...considering injected use of Ivermectin is up into the high 20's for days to milk withdrawal. It is not supposed to bind with the butterfat in the milk but does so for meat. So somewhere this information on zero milk withdrawal can't be a test, it is heresay.

Please know what you are reading...we are talking wormers here....and yes Ivermectin injected or given orally will get lice...but when you are buying a lice pour on, heed those instructions, they aren't wormers. Vicki


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## CountryHaven (Jul 17, 2005)

Vicki--then should I NOT use this delouser at all? (I haven't yet since this whole thing made me a little leary). It's not the ivomec wormer, it's specifically a topical delouser. But if goat skin is so much more frail should I just not use it at all... then again, should I even treat at all if there aren't any lice that I know of present? I was just doing it as a precautionary measure, but maybe I'm being too reactionary.


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## Jim S. (Apr 22, 2004)

I am just answering the OP here, not any of the replies, based on 17 years of ivermectin use:

1.) I use the pour-on as a pour-on and orally. I use it as a pour-on as a management practice, as Janis S. outlined. I use it orally if there is an acute worm problem in an individual goat. Around 6 cc per adult goat of pour-on given orally clears up worms in intense cases. Both methods clear worms, as proven by local vet fecals. I like the pour-on because of its ease of use. I can do them while they feed at the trough, and I even keep on hand several dollar store squirt guns, so I can shoot the more skittish goats while in the pasture during the period in which I do not offer supplemental feed (late spring to late fall). I stole the squirt gun idea from a "Farm Journal" tips page.

2.) Ivermectin does NOT hurt kids, nor will it harm fetuses in pregnant does. The safety margin for ivermectin is incredibly high. The major mistake most goat owners make is UNDERdosing their animals, not overdosing them. When in doubt, err on the side of the higher dose. Underdosing encourages resistance in worms that do survive. I have used ivermectin at all times in gestation.

3.) I worm using FAMACHA practices. See: https://www.uky.edu/Ag/AnimalSciences/goats/newsletter/faugustseptembernwsletter01704.pdf I encourage all producers to go to this system, and to use wormers on a ladder basis. Learn about all wormers, then first use the oldest style wormer that works in your situation, rather than immediately jumping to the newest available. We all need to be responsbile in doing our part to minimize worm resistance. There are no more wormers in the pipeline, folks, so we must be responsible about this problem to ensure efficacy in the future. The old vet-approved advice to "worm the whole herd once a month, then turn them out on fresh pasture" has been proven in studies to be exactly what NOT to do.

4.) Ivermectin, topically or orally, will kill lice. The lice are killed by feeding on the medicated blood.

Managing with this system, I have been able to use ivermectin for 17 years without resistance.


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## Sher (May 10, 2002)

But oh my..please use the right product in the right way. The product haven has is not a product any of you are using. CAUTION: Delouser..make sure you all are on the same page here..or an animal(s) are going to pay the price. 

I am not much for fixing something that ain't broke..but that's just me.


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## Jim S. (Apr 22, 2004)

Sher said:


> But oh my..please use the right product in the right way.


Depends on your definition of "right." The majority of wormers are being used in goats by extralabel use, regardless of method of use. They are not labeled for, nor intended to be used, in goats by the manufacturers.


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## Sher (May 10, 2002)

Jim..I merely mean..SHE is talking about a DELOUSER..orally or topically. MOST of the rest of you are talking about a WORMER. Unless I have totally lost my mind..and that is a very distinct possibility..they are two very different things. :rainprf:


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## Jim S. (Apr 22, 2004)

Sher, many systemic antihelmitics also work for lice. I have never bought a delouser, considering it redundant. 

From a management perspective, lice can be easily controlled. Just make sure the goats get plenty of sunshine and have adequate pasture to spread out, and make sure sunshine shines into the barn as much as possible and that the breeze is allowed into the barn. Sunshine and space prevent a whole raftfull of troubles.

Normal worming with an antihelmintic that controls lice as one of its properties will keep the lice problem down nicely with no extra work needed. The possible exception is for wool species like angoras and cashmere, where sunlight cannot penetrate far down enough when they are in wool.

I woudn't worry about find a few nits or lice in a healthy herd. Lice are a seasonal self-limiting pest in healthy herds, anyway, and are more a nuisance than a bother. (If you don't believe me on self-limiting, look it up in the vet journals for yourself). Good management holds down lice populations so far that there will be no trouble. Once the old coat is shed out, and plenty of sunshine hits the skin, the nuisance is over. Now I'm talking about healthy herds managed so that they get plenty of space, fresh air and sunshine. Best of all, fresh air and sunshine are free!

Sometime during that springtime, you'll likely get an eyelid reading that the goat needs a wormer, and using one effective against lice will nail any that are present.

Dandruff can be helped by adding a little bit of inexpensive vegetable oil to the feed and mixing it in. Or you can go the more expensive route and adjust your ration to include an oilseed -- flax or sunflower or the like. Elderly goats tend to get dandruff just as a matter of course.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

A delice has nothing to do with pouron wormers. It is a topical posion for lice, it kills both biting and suckling lice, something ivermectin will not do. Ivermectin does not kill BOTH sucking and biting lice.

Pouron wormers have a carrier in them much like DMSO, this solvent allows something topically applied to the skin to go into the blood stream. IF you took Ivermectin oral drench or Ivermectin injectable and poured it on the skin, it would do nothing...it needs the pouron carrier to make it work better.

The reason I don't use them poured on is because it is proven it doesn't work as good or for as long if you don't give it orally. With Cydectin being the last class of wormer we have, even though some of us can go back to other classes that don't have resistance, using cydecting as a pouron for me would give me faster resistance. Giving it orally at the correct dosage and when it's needed by fecal, will keep the wormer worming for you longer. With wide spread Ivermectin resistance already for blood sucking worms...in other areas where strongides are the biggest problem Ivermectin still will work well, but in blood sucking worms and since we know there is already resistance, than pouring it on isn't hurting anything since it won't be much longer before it won't work at all, orally or poured on.

The FAMACHA chart is a good tool, but it is only that a tool, when you use it exculsively for charting anemai caused by worms you are worming at salvage, the doe is already anemic the worms are in such high numbers and sucking soo much blood, that she is anemic...than you worm. In meat goats this is fine. If you do this to dairy goats which have soo much more product yearround...milk, kids etc.. rather than meat does with their 2 kids a year nursed for 12 weeks...you will have loss, not only of milk, but of does.

It is well known that Ivermectin does indeed cross the blood brain barrier, it is why it is the only wormer you use (that works) for menengial worm...given to a kid with no mature blood brain barrier to filter the drug, you can cause neurological problems that are blamed on the E form of CAE, disbudding and other things like, polio and tetanus.

So none of this hurts the goat to give pourons as pourons, but do your homework and the information is out there, done by Universities on goats, that all womrers work better and show less resistance over the long haul when given orally at correct dosages. You don't know what the correct dosage for your farm is unless you fecal. Vicki


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## Sher (May 10, 2002)

CountryHaven said:


> Did you mean orally? Later on in the thread you say orally. So what does would I give? I bought Atroban Delice--pour-on insecticide.
> 
> Active ingredients: Permethrin: 3-(phenoxyphenyl) methy (+/-)-cis, trans-e-(2.2-dichloroethenyl)-2.2-dimenthylcyclopropanecarboxylate... 1%
> Other ingredients (not listed) 99%.
> ...



Jim..do you consider this a dewormer? If not..that is the point I am trying ever so hard to make. This in my mind is NOT a wormer. Its a delouser..so NO I would not put it down a goats throat...for worms or anything else. 

I am simply saying...we need to be careful and read everything..as something like this stuff going down a healthy goat..who doesn't even have lice..could be dangerous..if not fatal.

If a person just read the first few posts...they would be getting the wrong idea. She wanted to delice with this stuff and asked if it should be topically applied or given by mouth..that was her confusion. The confusion on other peoples part is..she has a Delouser bought..not a wormer.


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## Jim S. (Apr 22, 2004)

Sher, my first post to this thread says...



> I am just answering the OP here, not any of the replies...


(for those who aren't savvy on Internet abbreviations, "OP" means "original poster" or "original post.")

Yeah, that is a delouser. B-U-T, I was not answering anything but the OP. And I said that right up front, too.

Of course, if we want to just see how many words we can type going around about a thread that has gone off subject, that's fine too. 

But if we're gonna do that, let's talk about *CHOCOLATE*, instead!

Now, where's Gailann?


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## Sher (May 10, 2002)

Okay jim..This is one of those threads that if people don't read all the posts, someone could make a big mistake. That's all I am saying..I merely don't want someone to catch the wrong idea here. Safety first and all of that.

I by no means am challenging you..I was trying to get you to see how this might get used in a wrong way. New people with goats..ya know? Not old hands and experts. Everyone kept going back to the wormer side of things. Just wanted to reinstate..what was what. The OP was how to administer..to me..what was being administered was what was scary.

But heck..they're not my goats.. :bdh: you can carry on with your chocolate now..I'll take mine as pie.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Sher said:


> you can carry on with your chocolate now..I'll take mine as pie.


No, milk chocolate truffles......<long sigh>


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## CountryHaven (Jul 17, 2005)

LOL I'm sorry I confused everybody. It WAS my fault because in my original post I called it a 'wormer' and compared it to Ivomectin BECAUSE it was presented that way in store.

I am putting the bottle of stuff I got up on a shelf ---maybe someday I'll get a cow. LOL

I'll buy Ivomectin and use it accordingly.

I was just probably jumping the gun anyway since NONE of my goats currently show any signs of having lice. I found it on three of my horses (I know, not the same species specific louse) and not even all of the rest of them... but I didn't want it 'traveling the farm' and thought I would prevent a bigger problem.

Still gonna do all the horses, but I'll not do the goats unless I see a problem. They get LOTS of sunshine and only the two dairy does are currently 'barned', and even they are outside in the sunshine during the day. The rest are in paddocks with run ins and spend most of their time out in the sunlight.


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## CountryHaven (Jul 17, 2005)

Oh... I"m very sorry, I forgot to mention... BUT I DO greatly appreciate ALL of the answers and opinions in this tread. May have even prevented a problem for me if I had used the product I had even topically as bottle suggested.


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## jBlaze (Dec 26, 2007)

March 2008 now, and looking for information as to how to deal with the lice on my pygora / angora goats. This is a very confusing - and helpful- thread. So, what ever happened? If I use the eprinex topically will the lice disappear forever?  
I have adults, pregnant does, and new kids.


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## CountryHaven (Jul 17, 2005)

LOL I was laughing at seeing this oldie pop back up since I was the one that started it so long ago, for a second I thought I'd had a flashback.


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## jBlaze (Dec 26, 2007)

Ya, I brought back a few oldies about bugs, lol. Them buggers are drivin me buggy! All the input I can get helps, even when it contradicts it is nice to have it all there to know about. I have never been satisfied with taking the first answer!


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