# How Will Collapsing Government Impact You



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2010/05/32-states-have-borrowed-from-treasury.html

From this article we can see that 32 states are officially insolvent, borrowing money from the Federal government in order to pay unemployment. Since unemployment insurance is paid in by the employers, one can assume that those funds went elsewhere and when it came time to pay the employee who ended up unemployed ... the wallet was empty.

Other than unemployment, let's think for a moment on additional impacts to the individual may occur in a failing, insolvent state.

1. Roads and bridges - some of these are state roads and not maintained by the central government. Already here in Illinois I occasionally drive on state roads that are essentially one big pothole. 

2. Law enforcement - This can impact us in two ways. First, we can imagine decreased crime patrols and investigations. No overtime. Next, we can expect very aggressive enforcement of petty violations that result in fines as local areas try to make up revenue.

3. No replacement of state-owned infrastructure such as water mains, right of ways, etc.

Any others you can think of? After we've accumulated a few, I guess the next logical step would be to consider means the individual can prepare for these problems (which are likely to be permanent problems).


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## upnorthlady (Oct 16, 2009)

Aside from what you mentioned already, there are some states that have not been able to send out state tax refunds. Also in an insolvent state, schools would be affected, state parks, wildlife and wetlands maintenance programs, and also things like snow plowing and mosquito control. Numerous social programs would be affected, too, as well as the folks who work for these programs. 

You are right, Ernie, that our nation is crumbling from within. We have a president who is wanting to get involved in the new world order, but cannot seem to see the enormous problems facing our own nation. And this is not just a liberal vs. conservative thing - ALL politicians for the past 3 or 4 decades have done nothing to stop this crumbling of our nation. Instead of a practical mindset, we have had a mindset of greed, money and luxurious living. Well now it is time to pay up for all this lack of foresight - only I think it's too late. I doubt that in my lifetime I will see America return to prosperity.


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

releasing more prisoners early to save on incarceration costs.

cutbacks in healthcare. (not sure how much hospitals are funded by state and how much by federal money.)

increased fees for everything. (building permits, garbage collection, water/sewer, etc)

decreased services. (cutback in public library hours; higher probability of utility outages due to deferred maintenance, longer utility restoration due to unwilling/unable to pay overtime to get utilities back on as quickly; cutbacks in public schooling, especially expensive extra curricular, or special needs/special education)

cutbacks, layoffs, strikes, protests, likely to affect services for periods of time.

more errors, and harder to get them corrected, both due to overworked staff, and extra revenue potential. (overcharges/miscategorization on vehicle titles, property tax, etc.)

attempts get "use tax". (when you purchase from out-of-state vendors, you pay no sales tax, but technically you owe use tax. there's been attempts to get major retailers, eg, amazon, to provide states with customer info in order to collect use taxes from those that don't pay. i expect those efforts will be started again, particularly for large purchases.)

more stringent requirements/stricter enforcement of existing requirements for any sort of tax break. (eg, ag exempt land may change to require a larger property, or higher dollar of revenue, or other harder-to-meet requirements in order to qualify. more documentation required to prove eligibility.)

sudden changes in tax rates, either for businesses or people. (eg, australia recently instituted a new 40% tax on mines. several years ago, canada suddenly changed the tax rates on a particular type of oil & gas investment.)

municipal defaults, making any new bond offerings difficult to expensive to impossible. if your local authority has old schools in need of replacement, and it defaults on other debts, then you're going to be stuck with those old schools for a while. ie, any new infrastructure won't likely be done in many jurisdictions. and quite possible taxes might be raised significantly to pay for existing one. even if not in your county, if the state decides it needs to shuffle money between counties somehow.

as i've said for some time, protecting your access to food, and protecting your money are the easy parts. protection from the political and social reactions will be the hardest part, and the most unpredictable. 

--sgl


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

All public services will get cut. Garbage pick up and recycling programs will get shelved, You may see central garbage drop off locations. Water taxes, you use ground or rain water you pay. Audits with summary decisions of tax owed. Confiscation of private property for minor unpaid fines. Massive military cut backs, watch for sell off's of less useful machinery ships and cuts in personel. Environmental laws may be cut or might get ramped up to preserve wealth as a tangable asset. Workfare instead of welfare, the min wage may disappear too.


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

We saw some of the problems starting on a trip to Chicago last week. The roads in Illinois have ALWAYS been bad, but they're always repairing them..specially the interstate into/around Chicago. 

This year...not a construction zone in site. And the roads were crumbling horribly. Rutted, showing signs of being STARTED on repair (as in, ground down to base, but not finished) in places, but that was rare. 

BUT! Take heart! Looks like we might be going to war with Korea, and war is always good for the businesses. 

btw, when they kept increasing the amount of time the unemployed could claim benefits, they couldn't say "hey! You! business! you have to pay for our increase", so the money WAS there for the first legitimate and preset time period. It just wasn't there for the extra YEAR that people have been taking the money.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

i very much depends on how fast things fall , if it is slow first no road repairs for a few years then a few bridge cosings with alternate routes workers not being replaced , services slowly cut , or it could be like when ground round when out of buissiness and everyone was told that they needed to leave

i was talking to a customer who was going to be moving his office to a building that had been closed in a mass lay off , he said there were still pizza boxes on peoples desks 2 years later .he talked to someone who had worked there they got notice at 4:15 were tols they had 30 minutes to pack personal belongings from thier desks and were to be out at 4:45 doors were locked at 5 a few managers stayed on 3 more days to get personel records to HR


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Well, I am hoping that it won't impcat me much at all; 
PA roads have stunk since I was a kid, and they still do.
PPL, now non regulated, has asked for a second increase...oh well, pay the piper.
School and property taxes raised again (but by very little, the benefit of most homes being owned by weekenders)...
Only police are the state police...no locals for our area...for many years...
Plenty of deer, turkeys, fish, and we got a spot on garden.
I love being a homebody.
Matt


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

The lack of law and order is a big issue... specifically game wardens.

Would be the same problem if the shtf... game wardens would disappear, along with all the wild fish and game.

Most of the local roads are in great shape, if they potholed a bit, maybe it'd slow down traffic.

I fear if the govt. collapsed, so would the refineries, and within a month, the country would stop moving, so potholes wouldn't be a worry. If certain bridges were to disappear, it'd be a blessing, to reroute the hordes elsewhere.

As far as public services... I'm trying to think of any I utilize on a regular basis (besides the court house... and I spend a fortune there) that I couldn't live without, if a cash economy fails, or the govt. collapses.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

They are choosing not to repair a major over pass in town. It's in bad shape and had to shut it down. Folks are mad but they don't see the worth in fixing it. All the road construction must be in IN, I had to take 3 detours everyday last week because of road work.

The road into my neighborhood was paved but it's in such bad shape that it was starting to sink into the swamp. They have been working on it since last week, a little each day and since it's the only way out, it's been hard with long waits to get through the mess. They don't seem to be paving it though. THey just shored it up and put gravel all over it.


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## VT Chicklit (Mar 22, 2009)

It will impact us greatly. DH has retired from working at the prisions in one state and he now works for the judicial system in another state. He is collecting his pension from his retirement plus his pay check from different state. YES, we are one of the *evil* double dippers. DH retired from his prision job because he was getting older and the convicts were getting younger and tougher and they did not care about anything. Even the lifers who had commited murder and had, at one time, the respect of the prision population. . . were warry of the new breed of convict. The gangs, especially MS13, have no respect for anything, even their own life. 

We moved to another state where I had property and DH got his "little retirement job" because he was too young to not work. We built our cabin and we are trying to pay it off. We will not be able to do that if DH looses his pension and job. We have 9 years left to pay on it.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Well, DH would be home because he works for the state of Kansas. 

Without unemployement things would get grim. Then again who would enforce it if the banks repossessed this house????????


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## cnichols (Jan 5, 2010)

Following are some of the things I see increases coming on if things don't get better (and I don't think they will)

Increases in "Heavy Vehicle Use Tax" - Currently $550 per year for the max gross vehicle weight for big trucks. I'm suprised these haven't gone up already but I wouldn't doubt that they will if/when things get worse.

Increases in "Fuel Tax" - Varies by State - These taxes are "supposed" to pay for the repairs/maintenance of a states infrastructure. As we are all aware, roads are getting worse in alot of areas. The Fed has already paid out over $105 billion, via the "American Recovery and Reinvestment Act", part of which went to states that already had existing "construction" that wasn't completed.

Violation (Tickets) payment amounts and number written - As a truck driver I've noticed a very distinct increase in police activity on America's Highways. Not only the vehicles being pulled over for speeding/etc. but in Truck Weigh Stations as well. While we were out there were stations that had a full parking lot in the back with a DOT Officer at every single truck. For those who don't know, weight stations are in place to ensure that commercial vehicles comply with specific federal and state laws. One being "gross weight" (hence the name weight station or scale) and the others being "vehicle safety". The Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration has recently instituted "CSA 2010" which is basically stricter enforcement of current regulations. Vehicle safety violations can be anything from low tread on a tire or a marker light out to fluid leaks, etc. Each violation carries a "fine". The more violations they find, the more you pay. My DH (some years back) was stopped at a scale house in Texas. They told him BEFORE they even started the inspection that he wasn't leaving without a ticket. I see much more of this type thing coming down the line.

"Rest Area's" are already being closed on some highways. Costs too much money to maintain something that produces no income. While this may not be a big issue for "four wheelers" (cars) it IS a problem for big trucks, where you may have to drive a hundred miles to try and find another place to park your truck or use the restroom. Remember, big trucks can't just hop off at the next exit and pull into a convenience store or fast food restraunt like cars can!

I can see the Fed taking control of some trucking companies. Why? you ask? Because, if things get so bad that trucks can't run because of fuel prices, etc. and food and supplies still need to be "transported" who else can do it, besides big trucks? I can see convoy's of big trucks loaded with supplies, escorted by armed guards. The drivers of these trucks won't really be given a choice about if they want to drive or not. They either do it (and get their government vouchers) or their family's starve. 

The more I see happening every day and I simply don't see it truly getting better any time soon.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

Utilities and services are already being "adjusted". 

The minimum for garbage where I live is one of the bins (55gal?) once per week. I never fill it but there is usually something in there and I pay almost 50 bucks a month for that. Serious increases so far and much worse to come.

Street work is still ongoing here, but it is more haphazard and definitely corner cutting going on.

bridges are not being maintained or they are doing it cheaper ways like closing it to work rather than pay crews longer hours to work around traffic.

Police patrols and non-traffic related (meaning no money comes in) work is on the decrease. They are focused more on income related activites. Red light cameras and all kinds of stuff to automate the process of getting more fines is in place.

Property taxes skyrocketing while appraisals decrease.

Taxes, taxes and more taxes. Added to everything now and they just keep passing more of them. Maybe the poli's really don't think we'll notice them.

Schools "consolidating" which is really just crowding more kids in already overcrowded schools. Even with that they just won't expell the bad seeds in them!

More "petty" crime. It is visibly going up. Leave nothing outside and nothing in a car even in your own garage. 

Electricity goes off much more often now and stays out much longer. Fewer crews to repair and they aren't replacing bits until they actually break anymore.

It's sliding down the toilet fast. I saw a good show on America's Crumbling Infrastructure and shuddered to think what it would take to reverse that.


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## Just Cliff (Nov 27, 2008)

If it keeps at this rate, I will quite my job and head to the farm full time as it is difficult to protect all my stores (food,feed and equipment) from crack monsters.


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## DoubleBee (Nov 13, 2006)

We live in Illinois but closer to St. Louis, Mo. There are plenty of road projects going on there. 
Here in our little town, our road got really bad, bottomed out from 6 garbage trucks a week driving on it. We complained to the city street dept and were told they don't have the money to fix it. They did put rock on it, but now it's more a gravel road than asphalt. But, I just read in last night's paper that the street dept is getting a new truck.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

I hang out on a couple of homeschooling boards and pick up a lot of talk about public education issues there. One poster was from Illinois and said that their budget shortfall was huge (41%, if I remember correctly). She said that the state owed money promised to both public K-12 schools and also to the state universities. One of her dc had applied to a state school and was told by someone there to call back later in the summer to see if they would still be open in the fall. A public elementary school in her neighborhood was told to go to the bank and take out a temporary loan to meet their payroll to get through the rest of the year.

Another educational phenomena that is popping up is that of the virtual school. Although it costs a lot of money to give kids free home computers and to administer the programs, it is cheaper than educating them in a brick and mortar school. There have been private virtual schools for many years now, but I am now hearing talk about how some of the larger and more strapped school districts are considering creating their own online education option. One teacher to tape all the English instruction, one for math, etc. How many teaching jobs would be cut in such a scenario?

This won't affect us because we already homeschool. But I know it is currently affecting many and if economic conditions don't improve, it will reach many more in the coming years.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

DoubleBee said:


> We live in Illinois but closer to St. Louis, Mo. There are plenty of road projects going on there.
> Here in our little town, our road got really bad, bottomed out from 6 garbage trucks a week driving on it. We complained to the city street dept and were told they don't have the money to fix it. They did put rock on it, but now it's more a gravel road than asphalt. But, I just read in last night's paper that the street dept is getting a new truck.


Thats what they did to my road, the only way out to where I live. I had to wait half an hour too, for them to let me pass as they spread gravel. It USED to be paved.....for a long time it was more giant pot holes then road so it's better, still bumpy. I might have to invest in 4 wheel drive if this gets any worse LOL


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

On the local news tonight they said Oregon has a budget shortfall of half a billion dollars. Despite passing a ridiculous measure last year that forces "rich people" and business owners to pay more taxes(retroactively I might add), there is an ------>80%<------loss of private state tax revenue in 2009. Of course the dems are in the majority. Of course the first thing they talk about cutting is TEACHERS, the sacred cow to get people to fork over more taxes(nevermind Oregon is at the top for teacher salary).

Good thing our state still has a good rural ag infrastructure.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

You tax things you want to stop, and subsidize things you want to grow. One state taxes producers (rich folks) more than another state, they'll vote with their feet, and move.


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

My concern has always been this; In case of a total TEOTWAWKI/ economic breakdown, at least to the point where we are all impacted significantly, how will we pay our property taxes? We can all talk about the food stores and the gardens and razor ribbon topped fences to keep out zombies... but if your land is confiscated because you can't make your taxes, what good is any of it? I have no doubt there would indeed be governmental agents hired by the scads to carry out this job. As it is now, government jobs/payrolls are increasing all the time. The only 'new' jobs it seems are government jobs.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

JuliaAnn said:


> My concern has always been this; In case of a total TEOTWAWKI/ economic breakdown, at least to the point where we are all impacted significantly,* how will we pay our property taxes? *


EXACTLY what lead me to buy silver years ago when it was dirt cheap. I wanted enough 'real money' put away that property taxes would covered and us not loose the farm to a small amount of money like many did in the 30's.

I chose bags of junk US silver, which are $1,000 face amounts, when they were 'selling' for a bit over 3,000 Federal Reserve Notes ( sometimes called 'dollars' but they aren't ) with the idea that the MOST I could loose on the deal was 2,000 FRNs, since the bag already had $1,000 in face amount. BUT given the FED and the Fed's history of printing money, ( to say nothing of the increasing scarcity of silver ) the odds were pretty good that the FRN value of these bags would increase at least the amount of inflation, if not more.

Well, 10 years later,( and the DOW, by the way, is still at 10,000 where it was 10 years ago ) a bag of that silver I bought at 3,000 I could sell back to the same dealer for almost 13,000, I fully expect to see 50,000 in a couple more years, and possibly a LOT more than that.

In that same 10 years, my property taxes have increased about 30%, whereas the money I stuck away to pay them eventually has increased 400%.

There is a limit as to how much the county can increase property taxes ( believe it or not  ) before they "own" everything ( and we have defacto communism ), but there seems to be no limit as to how much the FED's are willing to print, and thus destroy the value of paper money, so I believe being on the "winning" side ( if that's possible ) of this equation is to have some of your money in hard currency.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

*IF* you can be taxed off your land, then you are already a homeless wanderer, living in a fantasy world the creators of which did _not_ build for your benefit.
There is no naivety so appalling as that of a slave who is convinced beyond a doubt that they are free.

The gloves are coming off.

It is only a matter of time.


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

We'll all be affected in a number of the ways already mentioned as well as many ways that I'm sure we're not thinking of now, but will seem obvious to us later! 

It's hard not to spend way too much time worrying about things over which you have no control, so I try to stay focused on the basics like my faith, continually working to become more self-sufficient, and building local community.

It is indeed only a matter of time though:

AMERICA'S NATIONAL DEBT
TOPS $13,000,000,000,000; 
DEBT PER TAXPAYER - $117,975;
US DEBT TO GDP RATIO - 90.3%


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## cnichols (Jan 5, 2010)

My question is ... if "government fails" ... who is going to enforce property taxes? We all know if the fed fails that the states, counties and cities governments won't be far behind since they depend so heavily on fed funds.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

cnichols said:


> My question is ... if "government fails" ... who is going to enforce property taxes? We all know if the fed fails that the states, counties and cities governments won't be far behind since they depend so heavily on fed funds.


_
IF_ that hangs on as a residual concern after what will likely be the most universal holocaust in history..... look to the Chinese and Russian militaries to be collecting debts after.

You do have a point, though.

The one silver lining that I see surrounding this leviathon black cloud is that, even in a protection/subjection, slave/master, contractual/consent based relationship that is currently in place between US citizens and their government, _agreements must be kept_ by both parties.... benefactor and beneficiary. That jewel of international law has been firmly in place since shortly after Adam found himself wandering the earth (if not before).
Under the current "rule" the "beneficiaries" seem to be getting the shaft, and they are. 
BUT, the benefactors are in the process of letting down their end of the bargain, come high taxes, over-regulation, inflation or what have you. 
The house of cards ponzi-schemed economy is toppling.
The protections that weak people have sold themselves out for are soon to be gone.....leaving the contract unfulfilled and the "people" firmly in a position to rewrite their end of it, as well.

The key is, as discussed here daily, being ready to go it alone, if necessary.
Even and far better, be ready to go it as an extended family or community.
Think way outside the box on this one. 
Don't concentrate on what it will take to keep you alive for a year.
Put action into what it will take to make your community sustainable forever.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

When the "barbarian" kings started pushing in from the north and taking back Roman territory, the writings of the time show that many of the Roman citizens in those provinces were quite happy with the situation. The kings were smart enough not to rape and pillage, but simply to move in and tell the new landowners, "Swear allegiance to me and pay me a tenth of your property in taxes." That tenth was a whole lot better than the 15/16th chunk that the Roman government had been taking. 

So the contraction of government doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing. Many of us live in unpatrolled rural areas already and must provide for our own protection. If the government becomes less able to collect property taxes, then they would probably not worry about our meager holdings. They'll have enough to deal with in the subdivision and at the mansions of the wealthy.


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

http://www.rense.com/general90/predicts.htm 

as if I haven't read enough doom and gloom already over my morning coffee my "prepping friend" had to send me this...I don't recognize many names from the quotes and of course as they are just quotes they may have been taken out of context for "effect" and to prove the writers' point.... but for what they may be worth. Gave me a belly ache fer sure!


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

timfromohio said:


> We'll all be affected in a number of the ways already mentioned as well as many ways that I'm sure we're not thinking of now, but will seem obvious to us later!
> 
> It's hard not to spend way too much time worrying about things over which you have no control, so I try to stay focused on the basics like my faith, continually working to become more self-sufficient, and building local community.
> 
> ...



Or about $42,000 per person.


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## NamasteMama (Jul 24, 2009)

I recognize most of those names. There are considered experts and most have a track record of being right.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Forerunner said:


> *IF* you can be taxed off your land, then you are already a homeless wanderer, living in a fantasy world the creators of which did _not_ build for your benefit.
> There is no naivety so appalling as that of a slave who is convinced beyond a doubt that they are free.
> 
> The gloves are coming off.
> ...


so how do you get around that?


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

mantraps??? I mean they have to physically come to your place to evict you, right???:viking:

Of course if things are bad enough being small might help in being overlooked; it would be obvious to those left in power that if you had more going into the SHTF then it stands to reason you would have more to take after.:doh:


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

timfromohio said:


> It is indeed only a matter of time though:
> 
> AMERICA'S NATIONAL DEBT
> TOPS $13,000,000,000,000;
> ...





bowdonkey said:


> Or about $42,000 per person.


that debt number is only for actual debt, not for future costs for promised social security, medicare, and various other programs (unfunded liabilities). adding estimates for those costs in, gets the total to $100 trillion by some estimates. for comparison, the GDP of the US is $13 trillion per year. 

impossible to pay, so the choices are default by not paying and restructuring the debt, or default by inflating the money to pay back with cheaper dollars, or change the rules so you don't have to pay all those unfunded liabilities somehow. 

--sgl


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

sgl42-that's an excellent point - none of the entitlement programs are included.


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

If it gets as bad as some of us think, there will be no way around it other than to abandon your land and wander around until you land on some situation you are willing to accept. But then, how many others are going to be doing the same thing? Maybe like the Dust Bowl era, migrations of large numbers of people although for a different reason...


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

JuliaAnn said:


> My concern has always been this; In case of a total TEOTWAWKI/ economic breakdown, at least to the point where we are all impacted significantly, how will we pay our property taxes? We can all talk about the food stores and the gardens and razor ribbon topped fences to keep out zombies... but if your land is confiscated because you can't make your taxes, what good is any of it? I have no doubt there would indeed be governmental agents hired by the scads to carry out this job. As it is now, government jobs/payrolls are increasing all the time. The only 'new' jobs it seems are government jobs.


If it all breaks down, you won't be paying property taxes to a traditional taxing authority, with fiat currency. If everything breaks down (thats what the govt. is, right) so will the traditional tax assessors.

However, there will be taxes to paid... to whoever is in charge. If interstate commerce is a thing of the past (TEOTWAWKI), for a few years, real goods will be the coin of the realm. So, you'll pay your 'taxes' or 'tribute' to the local warlord (whether they be good or bad is up to the locals) in food, fuel, labor, or 'favors'. There will be some who'll initially try and buy goods and services with precious metals, but after a while, people will realize there is a finite amount of goods to go around, and the metal isn't 'doing' anything. After a few years, after everything shakes out, and small commerce once again starts to emerge, a need for silver or gold might arise. Till then, I'll keep more goods than silver.

The way I look at it, if the local county tax assessor's office is up and functioning, and the local bank is still able to collect on his outstanding loans and mortgages, technically it's not a TEOTWAWKI.

If I 'had' a mortgage, and a bank representative rode his (or maybe even a her, but doubtful if things get really hairy) mule out to collect, I'd have no qualms about writing him/her a check. I've kept my old bank account books/checks from Wyoming and Alaska. Good luck cashing them, now, or ever... and if interstate commerce is gone, there golden.

I could probably even write a check on my hometown bank, as most all of their records now are electronic.

If, in this dark world, we find ourselves... I wouldn't worry about the taxes... as long as we're able to work the land and produce a surplus, the surplus will be payment for taxes. If we're disabled, with acreage, having some goods or specialized service (mason, blacksmith, cobbler, etc. ...real manual profession) the farm should be safe. Imagine a local king or warlord... what will he want with more land, if there are no serf's to work it? Think about whats happened with Mugabe and the white farmers who fed the country and was the breadbasket of Africa... got rid of the white farmers, his country is starving, and they have to import grain. Without outside resources, Zimbabwe would have died off several years ago. A warlord who runs off his 'serfs' and places his non agricultural cronies on the land, would soon find he's land rich, but starving to death.

Of course, I could be wrong...:thumb:


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## barnyardfun (Mar 26, 2005)

bee said:


> http://www.rense.com/general90/predicts.htm
> 
> as if I haven't read enough doom and gloom already over my morning coffee my "prepping friend" had to send me this...I don't recognize many names from the quotes and of course as they are just quotes they may have been taken out of context for "effect" and to prove the writers' point.... but for what they may be worth. Gave me a belly ache fer sure!


I couldn't read it all......it scared me! I keep hoping it really isn't going to be that bad but it is looking pretty terrible. Now if I could just explain all of this to my DH...........he doesn't seem to think it will get that bad, just a bump in the road.


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

here's a perhaps more hopeful analyst, who thinks that we're ending a century of increasingly intrusive gov't worldwide, and that markets and responsible people will push back and control the leviathan state. (not that it won't be bumpy along the way.) the author has studied all the great bubbles, from the first in 1620, thru the current bubble, and usually has pretty good advice on what's going to happen next. a few excerpts to whet your appetite:


> http://www.safehaven.com/article/16925/governments-are-born-stoic-and-die-epicurean
> 
> *Governments Are Born Stoic And Die Epicurean*
> By: Bob Hoye
> ...


here's the author's web site, with more public info, altho much of it is short-term trading oriented, it is based on historical patterns, descriptions of which he sprinkles throughout his trading advice.
http://www.institutionaladvisors.com/whats-new.htm

--sgl


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

bee said:


> http://www.rense.com/general90/predicts.htm
> 
> as if I haven't read enough doom and gloom already over my morning coffee my "prepping friend" had to send me this...I don't recognize many names from the quotes and of course as they are just quotes they may have been taken out of context for "effect" and to prove the writers' point.... but for what they may be worth. Gave me a belly ache fer sure!


Finally had a chance to read the article...

Boy, what a bunch of optimists! :run:


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

I need 2 more years. PLEASE! Just give me 2 more years.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

willbuck1 said:


> I need 2 more years. PLEASE! Just give me 2 more years.


I'm hoping for two months... I'll collect on some clients outstanding bills.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

texican said:


> I'm hoping for two months... I'll collect on some clients outstanding bills.


I'm hoping for at least 2 more weeks so I can fill in a few holes in the preps.


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## NamasteMama (Jul 24, 2009)

I think things will start to get bad this summer, but the real heck will break loose in the fall. 2 weeks, easy; 2 months, your probably fine; 2 years, your dreaming.


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## Freeholder (Jun 19, 2004)

NamasteMama said:


> I think things will start to get bad this summer, but the real heck will break loose in the fall. 2 weeks, easy; 2 months, your probably fine; 2 years, your dreaming.


Unfortunately, I have to agree with you on this one. I doubt, however, that we are going in the direction of less-intrusive government for some time to come. We may be facing economic collapse, but the government has access to a lot of 'big brother' technology, and I'm quite sure they will use it to maintain control for as long as possible.

Kathleen


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

BlueJuniperFarm said:


> Unfortunately, I have to agree with you on this one. I doubt, however, that we are going in the direction of less-intrusive government for some time to come. We may be facing economic collapse, but the government has access to a lot of 'big brother' technology, and I'm quite sure they will use it to maintain control for as long as possible.
> 
> Kathleen


And extract taxes by any means possible!


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## cnichols (Jan 5, 2010)

Hmm... looks like I should wait until, according to "Jimmy Doomsday" ..


> Silver will bottom out below $10 before mid summer


Then buy TONS lol

What I read on that link is pretty scarey but a few things have already "not" happened as they predicted. That's one of the dangers of predictions ... they don't always come true! (but that's a good thing too right??)

I'm with willbuck1 in praying for two more years. Even one would be "okay" by me. *crosses fingers AND toes*


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## MSMH (Sep 8, 2009)

AZ has closed several rest areas (saw them) and I heard that they closed some driver licensing offices. Talking about closing some parks.

Over a billion in the hole so passed a measure for 1 cent sales tax increase for three years. Used the children, teacher, fireman, policeman plea to guilt and/or scare everyone. Passed 2 to 1.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Forerunner said:


> *IF* you can be taxed off your land, then you are already a homeless wanderer, living in a fantasy world the creators of which did _not_ build for your benefit.
> There is no naivety so appalling as that of a slave who is convinced beyond a doubt that they are free.
> 
> The gloves are coming off.
> ...


Let me ask my question again in a clearer manner.

According to Forerunner--
1.) holding a driver's license and SSN makes ones a slave to the Beast
2.) FOrerunner is not a slave to the Beast

Therefore I can deduce Forerunner does not hold a driver's license or SSN

Am I correct?

Again, according to Forerunner
1.)paying property taxes makes one a slave to the Beast
2.)Forerunner is not a slave to the Beast

Therefore I can deduce that Forerunner does not pay property taxes on the land he farms(like most of the rest of us slaves). Not to mention actually paying the taxes would be difficult without a SSN. Unless his farm is a corporation/llc/etc in which case SOMEONE ELSE is paying taxes (doing the hoop jumping to score favor from the Beast) and Forerunner farms the land at the pleasure of his boss(ie he just passed the buck). 

I observe in my own budget that not having to pay property taxes would be a significant bundle of savings. Care to share so the rest of us can learn and save some money too? and not be slaves to the Beast? because that is the Christian LOVE, to set the prisoner free, ain't it?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Your logic is flawed.

I agree with Forerunner that holding a driver's license and SSN makes one a slave to the Beast. (The beast being defined as the leviathan government.)

If you look in the dictionary, the word "license" is defined as "In particular a license may be issued by authorities, to allow an activity that would otherwise be forbidden."

Is travel forbidden? If I travel by foot? By bike? By horse? It's only forbidden, apparently, to those who chose _one specific means_ of transportation ... the automobile. 

If you counter with the argument that driving is inherently more dangerous than other activities, then please explain why I need a license to get married. Is marriage forbidden? Is marriage inherently more dangerous to the common good than any other non-licensed activity? What about a fishing license? Or a dog license? 

As for the SSN, why do _any_ of us have to have one? The purpose of Social Security (and thus the number) was ostensibly to provide for us in our old age. Um, is the government stating that we are all so incompetent that we won't be able to provide for our own lives in our elderly years? I resent that. When a child is born, does the government automatically assume that this child, when they reach the ripe old age of 65, will be completely without assets or family to look after them? If you're receiving social security benefits right now, would you be completely destitute without them?

The only argument I ever hear in favor of social security is, "I want to get back what I've already paid in." If some people wish to say, "Nah, keep what I've paid in just let me out of the system" then why should the government prevent them from doing so?

A man is either healthy or sick. You cannot say you are healthy if you are sick. Even if you're only a little bit sick then you're _not healthy._ Likewise, we cannot say that we are free if we're not _completely_ free. Saying "American citizens are the most free in the world" is like saying "this hospital's patients are less sick than any other hospital's patients."

I do not want to live like Forerunner, but I do believe God sent him into my life in order to teach me. If Forerunner can live as he does and be safe, secure, and happy then why cannot the rest of us move a little further out of the leviathan's grasp and not also enjoy safety, security, and happiness?


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Ernie, I get what YOU are saying, I truly do. I understand the position, your logic, whatever. 

That was not my question. It's asking a simple question on how Forerunner has dealt with the issue of property taxes(we can just set aside the whole "Beast" issue). It's a practical matter that each of us "landowners" have to deal with. If he's found a way to get around that(and reduce overall expenses), let's hear it.

And if Forerunner does not hold title to his land how can he be 'safe and secure" upon it? of course you'll say a title means no security. It IS at least one level higher than being a tenant.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

so what's the point of moving a little further out of the Beast's grasp if a little bit of freedom doesn't count as "freedom"?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

wyld thang said:


> so what's the point of moving a little further out of the Beast's grasp if a little bit of freedom doesn't count as "freedom"?


I do not believe that Christians and free men are doomed to live forever on the scraps gleaned from the tables of slaves and sinners. Why should I have to live as poor as a church mouse in order to be free? Why should I have to sacrifice my value system in order to make a living?

Growing your own food is considered gaining a little bit of freedom. So is preparing for an emergency. You gain the freedom over what you wish to consume and how you wish to survive.

If we're not continuously trying to move a little further out of the beast's grasp and gain a little freedom, then why are we _here?_ Why are we not discussing this in the WWW.ILIKESLAVERY.COM forum? Or perhaps the WWW.MYSLAVECOLLARFITSJUSTFINE.COM forum?

I'll contemplate this some more while I'm out weeding my potato patch, also the act of a free man.


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## michelleIL (Aug 29, 2004)

Ernie said:


> I do not believe that Christians and free men are doomed to live forever on the scraps gleaned from the tables of slaves and sinners. Why should I have to live as poor as a church mouse in order to be free? Why should I have to sacrifice my value system in order to make a living?
> 
> Growing your own food is considered gaining a little bit of freedom. So is preparing for an emergency. You gain the freedom over what you wish to consume and how you wish to survive.
> 
> ...


I put straw around my little tater patch....hehe the act of an even FREER woman! LOL


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

wyld thing asked a valid question. 

How! no politics, no beast, no religion - just a basic practical question...

HOW?

It's something I've wondered. I know about the driver's license issue, useing the tractor to get around it.

But, how is the property held, especially the taxes issue?

Some others might wish to try it, if they knew the way.

Angie


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## michelleIL (Aug 29, 2004)

michelleIL said:


> I put straw around my little tater patch....hehe the act of an even FREER woman! LOL


unfortunately, that's the only area in which I'm truly free-er.
I'm pretty much bound besides, but it is gtting closer. I canned ten pints of mulberries. I know a few wild things, so if food is scarce, it isn't really scarce, just a bit tedious. Juneberries are bearing well this year too.


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

Ernie said:


> The only argument I ever hear in favor of social security is, "I want to get back what I've already paid in." If some people wish to say, "Nah, keep what I've paid in just let me out of the system" then why should the government prevent them from doing so?


it is possible to opt out of social security if you're part of a religious group that opposes the concept. i knew a mormon a couple decades ago who did this, and therefore paid no social security (altho his employer still pays. 
via google i found this forum with more info:


> http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f4029.pdf
> 
> *OMB No. 1545-0064 Application for Exemption From Social Security and Medicare Taxes and Waiver of Benefits*


in addition, it is possible for your county to opt out of the social security system. i'd heard galveston tx has done so, and via google found the following:



> http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba514
> 
> *Galveston County: A Model for Social Security Reform*
> 
> The current debate over Social Security reform is reminiscent of the discussions that occurred in Galveston County, Texas, in 1980, when county workers were offered a retirement alternative to Social Security: At the time they reacted with keen interest and some knee-jerk fear of the unknown. But after 24 years, folks here can say unequivocally that when Galveston County pulled out of the Social Security system in 1981, we were on the road to providing our workers with a better deal than Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal.


more info at the link (which i haven't read the full text of yet). 

--sgl


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I wonder how Galveston is doing now (with their own retirement system) after the area was devastated a few years back.


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## Freeholder (Jun 19, 2004)

There are a few areas in Alaska where there are no property taxes -- I don't know how much longer that will be the case, but for right now, they do exist. Unfortunately, you pay a price in other ways, because these areas are mostly fairly remote, lacking in jobs and other amenities that most people have to have. They are also, for the most part, not in areas that are particularly great for farming. 

If anyone is interested, I can give some information.

Kathleen


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## MSMH (Sep 8, 2009)

I heard someone mention that he thought it possible to get property unlisted and therefore not have to pay real estate taxes. I have not heard of anyone who has actually succeeded.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I have not used an SSN for twelve years or so.
I do not possess a driver license.

I met a man, during a time when I was in the midst of a heated lawsuit (late 90s) , who had many pieces to a puzzle that I had been compiling since I first began to comprehend.
He had wisdom, knowledge, and a firm grasp of American law and jurisprudence.
We spoke at length, met several times, and became good friends.

After three or four years, we determined to take up the right and lawful course of the seemingly abandoned "first century church". We set up trusts that passed the muster of local, state and federal government, and I deeded this land into one of them, with the hope of eventually regaining the free status that land had when Adam walked the earth.
This latter occurred long after the lawsuit was interestingly resolved. I wasn't trying to avoid anything in deeding the land over to "the church" so much as trying to re-establish what has been lost.
Here we are, nearly ten years later. The aforementioned man and his "advisers/colleagues" never did see fit to begin the process required to remove the land from the tax rolls. I slowly but surely became convinced that these men did not represent the "church" that I had come to understand and have some semblance of faith in.

More trying issues have since arose and we have parted ways. The land is in my name, once again. I have mixed feelings about that, but it may all be good.
The tax on this land has been paid, since it's initial purchase by myself in 1989, via my own sweat and blood, in one way or another, to the uttermost farthing.
I have sought, but found, no legitimate way out, as of yet.
I would love to push the issue, but the end result could be that I would ever after be forced to be some form of burden on others, always begging a place to lay my head at night.
As Americans, we have been born into slavery. There is no real dishonor in that as we weren't given much choice, but there are many, many ways to reduce the level of bowing that one must do to the will of big government, and I am compelled to exercise them all as I find them.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Thanks for explaining forerunner.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Welcome, Angie.

It has been a journey, let me tell you.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

yup, thanks forerunner, I salute you


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