# Thoughts on this building?



## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

I am curious about your thoughts on this building? Just found it a week ago and fell in love with it. Think about it being off the grid and for just one person. (Me). What are your thoughts about the building style and if it is doable? 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AKrYneYy4Us


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

ITs a tiny house.!!  Angie (SEP mod) and I both follow a lot that stuff.. Google Tiny house and you will be amazed. And check out Pinterest for the same. Its a big enough movement that some are taking advantage people price wise. And be circumvent of the photos. A lot care taken to make them look bigger than they are. Best thing to do is measure the rooms where you are at and then compare them to the size of the tiny house and ask your self if you could live in that space


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

Oh trust me, Angie knows me from Facebook and we are all over the small house movement. This one is a lot smaller then what I have been looking at in real life but I also know I would add on to this one. I would add a 10 by 20 foot add on out the back and use it for kitchen with a french door opening up into the larger space. The only other room I would put is the bathroom upstairs and it would be 6 by 8 feet. Every thing else I would keep open. I would put laundry in a separate storage shed so it keeps the house open space.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Hi Cindy - 
This is a nice house. I can see the "home" in it.

Now, need some land.


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

I need land, actually I have some picked out I just have to be quiet on FB and not say any thing. I am working on the funds to purchase it then start to build. My plans are to buy it by this summer. But that I am not putting all over FB. It is close to my birthplace close to rez land near Klamath Falls Oregon. It is nestled on two sides to forest with only neighbors being on one side. It is a small lot but big enough for just me. The best part is when I move I can go hunting and fishing with my father again.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

Yeah, for a lot of reasons keep your fingers crossed. So what do you think of this house with an extension off the back for kitchen and then the front with a big bigger front porch? I thought about doing and enclosed front porch because it is cold/snowy there?


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

I really like that design and layout. If you look at how it is built, it does not have 2x4 walls, they are thinner, which makes it harder to insulate well. If you built this with 2x4 or 2x6 walls you could insulate it like a regular house. The roof is not vented -- which would be a problem. All things you could fix while keeping the same design if you built it yourself.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

I have been thinking about one of these also, except more barn-like to live in until i get my house built. I would only use it temporarily (2 yrs or so) and use it as a shed/guest house(upstairs) when construction was complete.

I think 2x4 walls are an option that costs additional. and wouldn't super insulated (6" foamboard) rafters eliminate the need for a vented roof?

Yes you could probably build one cheaper and better quality but since I am 800 miles from my property currently I am looking for cheap quick easy living quarters to move into while i build my permanent house.

I was thinking of one of this style for me. http://secureshedcheckout.com/ConfigureClassicManor.aspx?Model=T1624SWW8


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## PorkChopsMmm (Aug 16, 2010)

Blooba, you are right about the insulation in the roof but I think you need or should put some foil covered bubble insulation under the roof if you are going to do that to reflect heat. 

Your link doesn't work but I am interested to see what you found. We had a 24x32 place shelled in 2 years ago. Had I seen these small sheds being built so nice I think we would have gone this route.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

cindilu said:


> Yeah, for a lot of reasons keep your fingers crossed. So what do you think of this house with an extension off the back for kitchen and then the front with a big bigger front porch? I thought about doing and enclosed front porch because it is cold/snowy there?


I like your idea for customizing the little house to fit your needs. And, of course, a larger porch is always good. Maybe with windows that can close for the cold days, and open with screens for the spring and summer and fall.


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## ihuntgsps (Mar 10, 2008)

Lots of benefits of a small home like this but with all the changes you would like to make it seems smarter to have one custom built.
If you and your family cannot do the construction it would be easy to find someone that could I would think.
I would suggest 2x4 walls with spray foam insulation. If custom building you could make use of many spaces not traditionally made useful (under stairs, inbteween floor joists,under cabinet bases or above them) for additional discrete storage.
Being a small structure it would be easy to outsource the construction to a company not close to home and truck the building in in a couple sections and assemble on your foundation or pad. That way your secret hidden areas, if you choose to have them, would not be common knowledge in your local area.
I would also think the energy savings of a small super insulated home could easily pay for itself in a short time.
Hopefully you find the land you want and be able to make the home you will enjoy.


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

See, I have called Home Depot where these come from to find out they do not build them in my area or the area I am planning on building. So i had planned to use this one as a guide to the size and idea of how I want mine built. For code purposes I need to have it built 2x6. They do not allow 2x4 building here for living purposes. And then instead of a staircase I would put spiral stairs to save square feet. I would put the same type of windows and in the same spots as the video shows with the exception of adding a couple on the opposite walls for cross ventilation as well as extra light because it will be a off the grid project. 

Yes on the enclosed porch with windows that would open and close. 

I thought this building at least in the video was done with 2x4's?


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

PorkChopsMmm said:


> I really like that design and layout. If you look at how it is built, it does not have 2x4 walls, they are thinner, which makes it harder to insulate well. If you built this with 2x4 or 2x6 walls you could insulate it like a regular house. The roof is not vented -- which would be a problem. All things you could fix while keeping the same design if you built it yourself.


Explain about the roof and not being vented and what that means please? Remember I am new at this and learning. ?


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

blooba said:


> I have been thinking about one of these also, except more barn-like to live in until i get my house built. I would only use it temporarily (2 yrs or so) and use it as a shed/guest house(upstairs) when construction was complete.
> 
> I think 2x4 walls are an option that costs additional. and wouldn't super insulated (6" foamboard) rafters eliminate the need for a vented roof?
> 
> ...


Blooba, here was my barn idea that I liked until I saw the house from Home Depot... 

http://shedkitstore.com/16x32-richmond-bldg-kit-p-382.html


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

ihuntgsps said:


> Lots of benefits of a small home like this but with all the changes you would like to make it seems smarter to have one custom built.
> If you and your family cannot do the construction it would be easy to find someone that could I would think.
> I would suggest 2x4 walls with spray foam insulation. If custom building you could make use of many spaces not traditionally made useful (under stairs, inbteween floor joists,under cabinet bases or above them) for additional discrete storage.
> Being a small structure it would be easy to outsource the construction to a company not close to home and truck the building in in a couple sections and assemble on your foundation or pad. That way your secret hidden areas, if you choose to have them, would not be common knowledge in your local area.
> ...


Oh, I really really like this idea and I already have a daycare parent that I work for tell me he could build it for me. I also REALLY like the idea of secret hidden areas that are NOT common knowledge in that area. Very very good idea there. Thank you so much for your suggestions.


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## blooba (Feb 9, 2010)

PorkChopsMmm said:


> Blooba, you are right about the insulation in the roof but I think you need or should put some foil covered bubble insulation under the roof if you are going to do that to reflect heat.
> 
> Your link doesn't work but I am interested to see what you found. We had a 24x32 place shelled in 2 years ago. Had I seen these small sheds being built so nice I think we would have gone this route.


Sry about that, http://classicmanor.com/ I was thinking about the Summer Wind model.

I have seen the demo models at Home Depot and they are cheaply built but a nice shell and quick roof. It definitly would need work to make livable but it would be better than a tent or even a small camper.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

My concern would be foundation, can you build post and beam or is it best to use poured concrete crawlspace. Building materials are cheap right now and builders are hungry, good time to build. Since you need all interior and wiring, might as well get the building you want....James


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

cindilu said:


> See, I have called Home Depot where these come from to find out they do not build them in my area or the area I am planning on building. So i had planned to use this one as a guide to the size and idea of how I want mine built. For code purposes I need to have it built 2x6. They do not allow 2x4 building here for living purposes. And then instead of a staircase I would put spiral stairs to save square feet. I would put the same type of windows and in the same spots as the video shows with the exception of adding a couple on the opposite walls for cross ventilation as well as extra light because it will be a off the grid project.
> 
> Yes on the enclosed porch with windows that would open and close.
> 
> I thought this building at least in the video was done with 2x4's?


 If you are following a building code, you won't be using any size of spiral stair that would come even close to saving space. I have sold spirals in the past. They are about as close to useless as it gets, and one that actually takes up less space than a normal 3' wide run of stairs isn't safe, practical, or code approved. In the showroom of the stair shop I worked for, we used to have a 4-1/2 foot diameter wooden spiral stair going to the second floor. It's primary purpose was to help folks get a feel for how utterly useless they are. I alway tell folks to find a place that has a functional spiral on display, and give it a test. First walk up and down and get a feel for how ackward they feel. Next do the same thing with a wash basket in your hands and see if you can avoid falling. Now, think about furniture that isn't going to ever make it up or down the steps. Last, think about how well it will go when you have a life threatening emergency and the EMTs need to transport somebody from an upstairs bedroom? IMHO, unless that are a needless, secondary access to another floor, (as in there is another safe usable set of stairs available to that level), they shouldn't even be considered.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

jwal10 said:


> My concern would be foundation, can you build post and beam or is it best to use poured concrete crawlspace. Building materials are cheap right now and builders are hungry, good time to build. Since you need all interior and wiring, might as well get the building you want....James


I just paid nearly $11K for the framing material for a small ranch with a small one car garage. 7/16th OSB is running over $13/sheet. By far the highest I have ever paid for lumber, and I buy a lot. Sheetrock, and metal roofing are up 30% since the start of the new year. Poured concrete foundations are now over twice as much as they were a decade ago. Shingles nearly tripled in that time. There is no doubt that materials overall are higher than I have ever seen in my career, and it's tough to even understand why. As for hoards of starving builders, maybe, maybe not. In this area, most of the ones that were starving have moved on to some other way to feed their families. Those of us that are still in the game are seeing some long predicted trends. One is that there is a real labor shortage starting to brew. My framer has called ever qualified carpenter that he ever worked with in the last few decades to see if they are looking for a job? He gets two answers. Most have moved on to more stable employment, school district maintenance, truck driving, etc.... The ones that still are in the trade are fully employed and doing well. I hear similar tales from other contractors and suppliers who can't find qualified help. Interesting times ahead.


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## TheThamesman (Oct 16, 2012)

I am pretty new to this forum, so I am not sure if there has been much discussion about alternative building methods. If you want cheap and have the time and patience to invest in building the structre yourself, then cob, straw bale, or papercrete would be a great way to go. These structures usually lost longer and are better insulated than their wood frame counter parts


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

TheThamesman said:


> I am pretty new to this forum, so I am not sure if there has been much discussion about alternative building methods. If you want cheap and have the time and patience to invest in building the structre yourself, then cob, straw bale, or papercrete would be a great way to go. These structures usually lost longer and are better insulated than their wood frame counter parts


Welcome to the forum. Yes there is a great deal of discussion regarding alternatives on this particular subforum. That said, I started my career in a brand new, late 70's "alternative energy" curiculum at a local college. It was going to be the wave of the future, and all these years later, most of the ideas have been proven to be either total failures, cost prohibitive, or stepping stones to much better (and far more expenive) technology. Solar PV and water heating in particular. As for alternatives, they will always be on the margins, and they are getting hit harder by the spread of bureaucrats, every year. There are many reasons for the realtive lack of sucess in alternative construction. Cheap energy, unwillingness to change, a dominant consumer culture that thrives on the McMansion mentality, and resistance from folks who really don't want a straw bale house or pole barn house in their neighborhood. There are also issues that some folks don't really want to address here. A lot of potential owner builder/homesteader/ alternative lifestyle folks are wanna-bees. They will dream while sitting at the keyboard, but in the end, they don't go through with it, preffering the safety or ease of their current arrangements. Second the majority of alternative construction methods involve massive amounts of backbreaking work. Fact is, a lot of dreamers start out on their DIY homebuilding mission with all the drive of a four year old heading to Disney for the first time. A few months in, they are spending every free moment busting butt, the significant other is growing tired of the game, every muscle hurts, and it turns out that (despite the BS you read on line) All constuction is WAY more expensive that you thought. My guess is that a significant number of these projects either fail, or limp along until the place is barely livable, then it may, or may not, ever get done to any normal standards.

As for any one building material being more durable than another, sorry there is no reason to believe that any alternative material is inheritantly superior to standard construction. Longevity is all about design, quality construction practice, and maintenance, nothing more. Log homes are a great example. There are a lot of absolute garbage quality log kit homes but over the last few decades in North America. Homes that leak air and water, and have huge termite issues. OTOH, there are many other log home owners who are totally satisfied and have no issues. It's all about the design, construction quality and maintenance. The swiss have examples of log homes that were build 3-400 years ago, and they are still functional today. In a similar vein, there are examples of well preserved century old straw bales structures in the prairie states, but somewhere out there, if you look hard enough, you will find examples of bale houses that are a few years old, with mold infested bales, and enough issues to warrant tearing the place down.

The OP in this thread is heading in a real smart direction. Buy a cost effective structure that the neighbors and code nazis can wrap their heads around, do a good job of finishing it to your needs, and end up with a sweet, solid home that doesn't consumer a decade of your life, or end up never getting finished. Good luck.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Here in Oregon, builders are trying to hold out. Wood prices are down from 5 years ago. Little building has gone on for 4 years. Concrete price is down but fuel to deliver is up, still it is a good time before things start turning around and prices go up again. I get my new wood direct from the mill so no markup. The mills are hurting, many closing, so I get a lot at auction. I use metal roofing seconds and it is $4.00 a square cheaper right now than a year ago. Seconds are rolled and for whatever reason the buyer didn't pickup, wrong length or didn't like the color, they recut to my needs (since my cabins are small I can use it). There is a lot of reuse and seconds material sitting around for great prices, here if a person looks around....James


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## TheThamesman (Oct 16, 2012)

Thanks for the thoughts on these alternative methods. I agree that these methods will never become common place so long as we live in a society where labor is expensive and materials and energy are relatively cheap. I just took a quick trip to New Mexico where my girlfriend's parents live in an off the grid papercrete house (post and beam with papercrete in fill) that her father constructed. I have to say it was extremely comfortable and truly cheap for him to build and maintain. With the passive solar design concepts incorporated into the house and the thick insulation of the papercrete, it took very little wood to keep warm in the mountains. It seems like New Mexico has a good culture and laws to allow these buildings to go up though judging from the amount of different building methods I saw. I still remain hopeful that I could use these alternative technologies to build my own home someday.

Referring back to the OP, it seems to me that the major cost and time investment in building homes in the conventional method is often tied up on finishing the inside of the home. I myself have never finished the inside of a house, but it seems like a good team of framers can have a pretty big house up and framed in like a week, but will then take months to finish the inside of the same house. However, it seems like a good idea if you want something quick and easy and that you could pay off and finish incrementally to avoid taking out enormous loans.


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

You have a lot of good thoughts going on and I appreciate all of the advice. I am mainly trying to get the outside structure put together in my head. I have helped my father do the inside insulation and the structure itself is very very basic. No closets going in, no rooms, with the exception of the bathroom. Very little as far as doorways, no hall ways, etc. Just a very basic structure. I have tried to put it together in my mind with the least fuss as possible and with what I can do to make it up to code without going over to much if you understand what I mean.


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

Wharton, I agree with you on building in the new green fashion of it being very expensive. I went to Eugene Oregon to talk with a owner of a solar business there and asked about how much it would cost to put solar in a new home. He gave me the price tag of $20,000. I left the store and couldn't quite figure out why it would cost that much to run about 3 lights and maybe a lap top plugged in every now and then. I know code asks for lights at the top and bottom of steps so I figured out one light that would do both jobs. I plan on cooking with a wood stove. The water heater I haven't quite figured out yet and I plan to do my laundry at my fathers house so I could have bonding time with him, clean his house and watch over him. Yeah, that is going to be my excuse considering he is going to be 82 but very much wants his independence.


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## TheThamesman (Oct 16, 2012)

Something to remember with solar or other off the grid electric production is that you are in a sense purchasing all of your electricity initially and then gathering it for free while having to replace your batteries every 10-15 years if stored and maintained properly. I am not familiar with the economics, just saying that you should look long term and compare it to getting a meter and paying monthly. Also, $20,000 seems totally ridiculous! To bring up my girlfriend's father's home, he was a panel about 6x4 and a single large battery with an inverter to run about 4 compact flourescents and an efficient chest style fridge that runs on DC. Even with the expensive fridge, I can't see that adding up to half of $20000. Have you thought about designing your own system?


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

cindilu, I had a knowing smirk going when you described heading into the solar place. I have friends that play that game. Drop $40K into a massive system, and get 30% back from the feds. 25% from the state, sell the power back to the utility at retail, then hire a broker to sell carbon credits to others. Totally scam from start to finish, IMHO. You might want to head in a completely opposite direction. There are significant numbers of fulltime and snowbird RVers that live on very limited budgets. One way to live very comfortably in this situation is to aways stay in places like national forests, or public lands, where there are no utilities. In this environment, affordable, reliable, off grid solar has become pretty much standard. There is a true low cost "guru" in this movement, and his name is Handy Bob. It's easy to find him if you Google Handybob solar. Now, I'm a bit of a crumudgin, and have little tolerance for some of the misinformation, and silliness that ends up here. Be forwarned however, that I'm genuinely pleasant, compared to this guy. He is the real deal, and you will be extremely sucessful at designing, maintaining and using a low cost, off grid solar power system, if you follow his advice. He does a great job of explaining how things like undercharging batteries, installing undersized charge cables, and other deliberate "errors", create a situation where you never come close to reaching the full potential of your system, and magically the cure always seems to be to add more extremely expensive panels. Great reading, when you have the time. Good luck.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

jwal10 said:


> Here in Oregon, builders are trying to hold out. Wood prices are down from 5 years ago. Little building has gone on for 4 years. Concrete price is down but fuel to deliver is up, still it is a good time before things start turning around and prices go up again. I get my new wood direct from the mill so no markup. The mills are hurting, many closing, so I get a lot at auction. I use metal roofing seconds and it is $4.00 a square cheaper right now than a year ago. Seconds are rolled and for whatever reason the buyer didn't pickup, wrong length or didn't like the color, they recut to my needs (since my cabins are small I can use it). There is a lot of reuse and seconds material sitting around for great prices, here if a person looks around....James


 Interesting info. I live in a rural area of PA. In the last seven years we have gone from being free to do whatever makes sense, to being governed by a 1000 page code book, that is enforced by a truely nightmareish group of bureacrats. Anything that isn't in the book will be rejected, and if you have an issue with that, you are welcome to schedule an appeal, after you post the $1000, non-refundable fee. So, there are plently of local saw mills that sell cheap lumber, that we can't use. If it isn't planed, graded, stamped and dried to at least "S-Dry" it will be rejected. Used materials are out of the question also. The concrete industry is also interesting. This is the cradle of the cement industry in North America. The mills are all owned by foreign nationals, and the world market, not local demand, sets the price. The delivered price for wet concrete has doubled in the past ten years, yet the local demand has dropped by 85-90%. Trying to do business in the crowded northeast, post collapse, with skyrocketing prices, and constantly increasing bureacracy is a fool's game. I see a point coming where new, affordable rural housing will be a thing of the past. In a healthy economy, a new home should be priced at 30% more than a similar resale. Currently, in this market, they are valued equally, yet the cost of new construction is climbing contiuiously and steeply. Interesting times ahead.


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

What are your thoughts about foundation? Cheaper to put in a cement pad for a 16 by 20 cabin/house, or put in a normal foundation? 

And some of my thoughts are that is close to being shed size and according to code here in Oregon if you put in a shed and it is not on a permanent foundation they cannot do any thing with it for code purposes. In other words code does not apply in this case. I have considered listing it as a shed and not putting a permanent foundation under it so it doesn't have to be built to code. What are your thoughts on this idea?


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

cindilu said:


> What are your thoughts about foundation? Cheaper to put in a cement pad for a 16 by 20 cabin/house, or put in a normal foundation?
> 
> And some of my thoughts are that is close to being shed size and according to code here in Oregon if you put in a shed and it is not on a permanent foundation they cannot do any thing with it for code purposes. In other words code does not apply in this case. I have considered listing it as a shed and not putting a permanent foundation under it so it doesn't have to be built to code. What are your thoughts on this idea?


Around here sheds are placed on a 6-8" thick gravel pad. A cement pad would be considered a permanent foundation, gravel is not. If they are under 1000 sq. ft. they are not under the juristiction of the code nazis. In your case, the further you can stay from having a bureacrat make decisions for you, the better off you will be.


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