# 18 Studs?? Buck Documentary *spoiler warning*



## CraterCove

So... I've gotten around to finally watching that Docu-movie about Buck Brannaman and I got to this part where this lady has 18 freaking studs. I had to pause and go digest that idea for a good long while. I was gobsmacked. As dude says in the video, horses are a mirror. I am surprised I haven't seen her on that animal hoarders show save probably this is an old movie now and she might not have made it this long. 

And all the people on the sidelines screaming and yelling and carrying on during the bit in the round pen...Talk about being set up to fail. There's only so much a person can do in a four day clinic and I guess I'm kind of in the 'slow is fast' mindset. But gosh they had to do something with this stallion of he was going to kill someone. It makes me so mad... she's ready to put him down (probably was the best choice at this point) when getting him cut at the right time is what? 1/3 the cost of humane euthanasia and disposal?

That portion of this film has left me feeling really upset. Buck was kind to her... and you can hear him sighing and getting frustrated when the woman won't stop fussing when they are trying to trailer the horse... The patience of Job? Yeah, I think so. Wow, yeah that was really upsetting.


----------



## jennigrey

Been a while since I saw that movie. Wasn't that horse a bottle baby? His being intact didn't help matters any but I don't think it was that big a factor in his ruination. She would have ruined him whether he was a stud or a gelding. She has serious problems.


----------



## CraterCove

jennigrey said:


> Been a while since I saw that movie. Wasn't that horse a bottle baby? His being intact didn't help matters any but I don't think it was that big a factor in his ruination. She would have ruined him whether he was a stud or a gelding. She has serious problems.


You are absolutely correct. She claims the foal was 'oxygen deprived' and she raised it in her house because her barn burned and then she broke her back--- it seemed like a really long list of excuses for poor stewardship on her part. I don't think being intact did anything but give the colt some extra drive. I have been around studs that were well handled and those that were not-- funny thing, persons with poorly behaved stallions also had poorly behaved geldings and mares...


----------



## Teej

I've heard that she didn't carry through with having that stallion put down but I don't know if that's true or not. 

Some people should not have animals period and she's one of them.


----------



## SFM in KY

One of the nastiest 2 year olds I ever dealt with was one that was raised on a bottle and had never been taught any manners at all. He would charge you, rear and try to strike. I was young, quick and absolutely fearless in those days but I was still wary of him. The first thing I did was call the vet and schedule gelding but needed to work with him the 3 or 4 days before the vet got there.

I set a snubbing post just outside the corral gate, haltered him over the corral fence and put on a long rope, long enough to snub to the post before I ever opened the gate and enough extra to get me out of his reach.

Then I started with the buggy whip to the belly every time he reared and pawed at me. He had a bit more respect for me by the time the vet got there and turned into a nice gelding.


----------



## CraterCove

A lot of us goat people, dairy in particular raise bottle babies as a part of CAE prevention. However, I just won't do it. I'd rather cull hard if there ever comes a CAE problem than deal with babies that treat me like another goat to play king of the hill with and don't learn proper social skills from herd interaction. Mama raised babies learn much better what plants to eat and which to stay away from-- my number one bottle baby eats Azalea like candy (which is very toxic for them). It was never a problem with any of my dam raised herd but now I have had to go around and destroy every azalea on the place.

I feel like dam raised is best whenever possible. And when it's not? Well I guess you just have to fight the urge to anthropomorphize and treat a horse like a human child. Just like love isn't necessarily enough to keep a marriage going, it's not all you need to raise a horse with a sound mind.


----------



## Otter

Goats aren't horses. Every animal is different. What is fine in one species will not work in another, from methods of raising to age of weaning to feeding routine. 

You can bottle raise a goat, just one, from birth, have it not see another goat till it's 4 months old and it will get along with a herd just fine, and be a sweet, respectful animal towards you (naturally, so long as you don't spoil it, and you can spoil a dam raised baby just the same)
Plenty of folks for centuries have bottle raised a single calf, raised her up, and that cow doesn't see another except for a bull 10 minutes a year, and she still makes a fine, gentle milk cow.

But if you did the same with a horse, you would end up with something totally insane. Same with a llama (look up berserk male syndrome)
Because you can't do something with certain species, doesn't mean you can do it with none, and because you can doesn't it make it universally acceptable.

I bottle raise my goats. They are all sweet and respectful, lead well, my does all milk without a stanchion or being tied, my buck is being trained to cart. But having worked with horses, including a couple of bottle foals, if I had an orphan foal I'd be inclined to put it down if I couldn't find another horse (did you know some geldings make wonderful "grannies"?) to mother it rather then deal with the resulting crazy.

As far as the stud thing, in a well-raised animal, it should make very little difference. I worked for a breeder who never cut anything unless it's new owner requested it when she sold it. She had 10 young studs, from yearlings to 5 yos in a field. I worked those horses every day, they were fine gentlemen, every one. 
The same breeder had an orphan filly, now a 2 yo. That horse kicked me in the chest, in the middle of a 17 acre field. Just wandered up to the mare I was petting and decided I had to die. The other mare took offence and kicked her off me. I can still feel the way my ribs flexed from that kick.


----------



## Bret4207

IMO a lot of people are simply too kind and lovely dovey with their horses and other stock. You don't have to be mean or cruel at all, but you have to be the herd boss. That lady in the Buck film (great movie AFAIC) was as much a victim of herself as her horses were. I imagine many of us have seen the story repeated- city people with money buy a 2.3 acre "ranchette" and stock it with 4 green horses, 11 goats, 9 sheep, 37 roosters and a pot bellied pig. Fencing consists of 1 strand of poly sire and fence charger made in 1963 bought at an auction with a 2 foot hunk of rebar for a ground. Barn is either old and falling in or new and made of OSB and falling in. The owners have a $64K pickup and $20K trailer and belt buckles the size of a basketball, lots of turquoise jewelry and wear cowboy boots and hats 24/7. In 3 months the stock is all running loose and for sale on CL- if you can catch them. It's an endless cycle that repeats itself. This lady was just one variation on the same theme. At least Buck had the backbone to tell her she was nuts to her face. THe rest is her decision,


----------



## CraterCove

That brings up an interesting question. If you can't get another mare to adopt an orphan foal (either rejected or otherwise), are you better off culling it? When do you consider that for the safety of people a horse needs to be euthanized instead of saved? I expect the threshold is very different for people of different levels of experience and facilities/ resources. 

Anyone have experience grafting foals onto other mares or using domperidone or sulpiride treatments to induce milk production in a mare to have her nurse an orphaned foal? With the goats I have had success simply holding a doe and letting a new kid nurse a few times... rub her kid and the other, to maybe mix their scents and hers too. I haven't had a problem getting one doe to accept another's I had three kids on my main doe, Jane this spring. She has a teat spur and it makes her more difficult for me to milk her but the kids have no such trouble and she does fine with producing enough for more than her own.


----------



## Irish Pixie

My opinion is that orphaned foals should be put down, I've never seen a normal sane hand raised orphan, they've all had issues. That said, I don't know if I could actually do it if it were my foal. 

It's not easy to get a mare to accept an orphaned foal. I've seen people attempt it 2-3 times but it's never worked. I have an out of work broodmare mare that _might_ accept a foal, and since she bags up every spring, with Domperidone she may even produce enough milk.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Bret4207 said:


> IMO a lot of people are simply too kind and lovely dovey with their horses and other stock. You don't have to be mean or cruel at all, but you have to be the herd boss. That lady in the Buck film (great movie AFAIC) was as much a victim of herself as her horses were. I imagine many of us have seen the story repeated- city people with money buy a 2.3 acre "ranchette" and stock it with 4 green horses, 11 goats, 9 sheep, 37 roosters and a pot bellied pig. Fencing consists of 1 strand of poly sire and fence charger made in 1963 bought at an auction with a 2 foot hunk of rebar for a ground. Barn is either old and falling in or new and made of OSB and falling in. The owners have a $64K pickup and $20K trailer and belt buckles the size of a basketball, lots of turquoise jewelry and wear cowboy boots and hats 24/7. In 3 months the stock is all running loose and for sale on CL- if you can catch them. It's an endless cycle that repeats itself. This lady was just one variation on the same theme. At least Buck had the backbone to tell her she was nuts to her face. THe rest is her decision,



Oh no...up here these people would call my husband to come and fence for them (when he had his fencing company). You can't even imagine the stories he'd come home with. They wanted wire in pretty colors, "don't touch THIS cow, because I want her to bond with me", etc. He thought having a fencing company would be a fun respite from engineering. He went back to engineering after a couple of years.


----------



## jennigrey

Raising an orphan foal successfully takes a very particular skillset, an ideal infrastructure (nursemaid goat and gramma gelding, for example), OR a big dose of luck. Rather than seeing someone take a gamble and try to raise an orphan themselves, I'd rather see it go to someone who has experience or see it put down.

My definition of "raised successfully" is that the horse ends up getting along normally with other horses, interacts appropriately with humans, and receives correct nutrition (neither too little nor too much food). I have seen a few dam-raised foals that could not interact normally within a herd (ostracized by other horses, terror of the herd, or even afraid of the other horses). I have seen dam-raised foals that think they can assault people with impunity. People are certainly capable of screwing up just about anything, and sports do happen. I can see how a dummy foal might end up with some equine version of autism. However, this happens more often with bottle-raised foals than with dam-raised foals.

If it was my orphan... I'd check with my vet to try to find a mare to graft the baby onto. If no such nursemare was forthcoming, I know I'd be hard-pressed to put the little pooper down. Especially if he came from my best horse. I'm sure not saying it's an easy choice.


----------



## Grey Mare

A friend of mine who goes to the Buck sessions when he is on the East coast said that the lady still has the stallions. My personal mindset is, you breed them, you do right by them and part of that is good animal stewardship by gelding. Can't afford it don't get horse and don't breed. I have seen too many people get hurt because of ignorance on what to do with an intact horse.


----------



## jennigrey

Otter said:


> You can bottle raise a goat, just one, from birth, have it not see another goat till it's 4 months old and it will get along with a herd just fine, and be a sweet, respectful animal towards you (naturally, so long as you don't spoil it, and you can spoil a dam raised baby just the same)


I think this is because the norm for goats is "random and insane". You can't mess up a goat. They are already messed up. :cowboy:


----------



## Irish Pixie

jennigrey said:


> I think this is because the norm for goats is "random and insane". You can't mess up a goat. They are already messed up. :cowboy:


 
Snerk.


----------



## CraterCove

jennigrey said:


> I think this is because the norm for goats is "random and insane". You can't mess up a goat. They are already messed up. :cowboy:


Hey! Well... maybe  But my Saanens really are about the calmest most sedate goats you can get... which is why I chose that breed over any others for my little farmstead. I love my goats, dogs with hooves I tell you! I am a small operator so I can dam raise and still spend lots of time with them all and they are all really nice and friendly.

And yeah... oh boy, I just hope I never have to be put in a position of deciding between bottle raising an orphan foal or maybe putting it down. It's a tough decision to even think about. If I ever post up about having an orphan foal and what to do next... remind me of crazy stallion lady and that poor guy of hers. I hope I never fail a horse so badly.

Buck was _really_ kind to her in my opinion. I like that guy he seems like a really nice guy who does a lot of good for people and their horses.


----------



## wr

I have raised a couple of orphan foals to be sane adults but it's not easy. In order to meet a foal's nutritional needs, they need to be bottle fed every couple hours, day and night, which means they spend way more time with a human than other species do. Most people tend to fondle, pet, love and cuddle babies when they bottle feed and it's not a good idea with foals, just walk in, feed and go. They have to have equine interaction and it will fail if you don't have a granny or babysitter and you absolutely have to discipline foals when they misbehave and most people won't because 'they're cute.'

I also find that bottle fed calves tend to be a problem too but most are in the freezer long before people realize how dangerous they are.


----------



## CraterCove

wr said:


> I have raised a couple of orphan foals to be sane adults but it's not easy. In order to meet a foal's nutritional needs, they need to be bottle fed every couple hours, day and night, which means they spend way more time with a human than other species do. Most people tend to fondle, pet, love and cuddle babies when they bottle feed and it's not a good idea with foals, just walk in, feed and go. They have to have equine interaction and it will fail if you don't have a granny or babysitter and you absolutely have to discipline foals when they misbehave and most people won't because 'they're cute.'
> 
> I also find that bottle fed calves tend to be a problem too but most are in the freezer long before people realize how dangerous they are.


Watching foals with their mothers in pasture, they sure can manage to discipline despite irresistible cuteness. It's something I've had to learn myself with an exceptionally cute 3rd child-- but I'd rather suffer the angst of discipline than have one of my kids become the raging brats I see in other broods.

That's good advice that I hope never to have to exercise.


----------



## bergere

Seen a number of Orphan foals raised to be good citizens. 

They were raised in a herd of mares, who taught them manners and respect. 
Kind'a like being surrounded by lots of Aunties. 

The foals were left with them and the owners, would feed in that same pasture.... at the same time, made sure the babies had perfect manners. They didn't make pets of the orphan foals. 
One really does need to know what they are doing.

The last rescue mare I brought home... was raised in a big herd, and nursed her dam. But over the years the humans that owned her, allowed her to get away with more and more things.
By the time I got her, she would drag people when you were trying to lead her in halter... if she didn't like something, she would go out of her way to go over the top of you.
She learned she could be aggressive and nasty, and she got her way. She knows every Sour rent string horse trick in the book. Quite impressive.... in a not so good way.
If she was a stallion, I would of had her put down.

Has taken me 4 years, but she now knows, she has to be on her best Manners.
I do not tolerate any aggressive behavior from my animals. I am firm but fair. 
She is now polite, walks nicely next to me, in a flat halter and loose lead....etc..etc..
Took a lot of firm retraining.

So wither an animal was an orphan or naturally raised with their dam.... they both can have bad manners, if people treat them like puppies, do not set boundaries and do not teach them respect.

I have halter trained my sheep for around 17 years now...give or take,,, ewes and wether's only... same with the goats. They also have to all be on their best behavior.

Have Katahdin's and some Jacobs. I bought an old Katahdin ewe, to teach the boys/wether's manners. She cleans their clocks if they act up in any way. Having an old alpha mare, ewe or etc... is a great way to help teach babies their manners.


----------



## Otter

CraterCove said:


> That brings up an interesting question. If you can't get another mare to adopt an orphan foal (either rejected or otherwise), are you better off culling it? When do you consider that for the safety of people a horse needs to be euthanized instead of saved? I expect the threshold is very different for people of different levels of experience and facilities/ resources.


it would depend on the age of the orphan, one a few months old might be salvageable, but most people think of a newborn.
It's not impossible, and I heard (but never verified) of one fellow who had great luck with an old gelding who'd mother a foal, and he kept them in a small pen with a run-in shed and a lambar for the first month. The gelding supplied all the love, nurturing and discipline and the foal would run to the lambar to nurse and the fellow was strictly hands off.

But for myself - and I truly hope to never be in that position - if the foal was a month old or less, unless I could find another horse to adopt in in 24 hours that's the point at which I'd put it down, before I was too much more emotionally invested then I already was. And older orphan I might give it a bit more time to find a granny for.
Don't get me wrong, I'd cry my eyes out and need therapy, but I'd think in particular of the sales ad that went up for the orphan that kicked me;
"Buttermilk buckskin. Pretty as a picture, mean as a snake. Not right, will go for you and mean it. Will NOT be sold to anyone 18 or under. We will load."
I'm sure you can imagine the good old boys coming out of the woodwork, convinced that one way or another they could "tame" her.

If that was the best that the future could hold for an orphan - and often, it is - I hope I'd have the courage to pull the trigger and spare them that.

As far as bottle calves; Wr, I haven't worked beef cattle, only dairy, and they're ALL bottle babies and only the bulls are trouble. The cows and steers are generally fine. Individuals differ, and you come across a cow here and there that will kick you but a hard to handle one is the exception, not the rule. It seems to me that centuries of different handling have made a pretty big gap in the behaviour (towards humans) in beef and dairy cattle.

Crater Cove, a funny story. The only goat we ever had here who was a hellion was one of only 2 that we dam raised. He was a PEST. All over you, all the time, jumping, butting, chewing your hair. He was relentless! And not just people, he pestered our wether till Erik got so aggravated that he picked the kid up by his little nubbin ear (LaMancha cross) and shook him!
It wasn't until we were weaning him that we finally managed to teach that little cuss some manners. The next time we left a kid on his dam we also taught him to take a bottle starting when he was a week old. We only gave him a few swallows a day and he was the sweetest, politest little guy.
 There's just no accounting for goats!


----------



## CraterCove

I love goats. I love my goats as much as I love my dogs. My favorite this year, Vicci, is a trip. I had an old couch in a stall in our barn for the dogs to use. I was cleaning the stall out and using some baking soda to dry any flea eggs out (my gods constant battle against insects here in FL) and Vicci discovered that if she ran and jumped on the cushions in the aisle she'd go sliding. I need to set it up again when the camera has batteries... we are always stealing batteries to keep the Roku going, it's a hungry little thing. 

Our fences aren't reliable and this is a rental so when I let my goats out during the day I goat herd with my Nexus in hand. Vicci comes up behind me and hooks her front legs over my shoulder to indicate it is time to play. Already having to break her of that habit since 50 lbs of goat on my shoulder isn't all that pleasant and 150 lbs of goat on my shoulder is going to be... uh... really unpleasant. Thankfully, goats are very amenable to verbal commands and 'off' can be used preemptively. 

The ear pinching is something they will do to put those under them or those who push to far in line. It's works well, a quick pinch and they understand they have overstepped.


----------



## Teej

I guess I have weird horses. Back in the day when I was still breeding, the mare herd would let the foals get by with about anything without correction. At weaning time when they were put in with my old gelding and any of the mares without foals they also would let them get by with being brats. Then come yearling year and that's when the elders quit putting up with their nonsense. It was always so funny to watch the confusion on those little baby faces when they suddenly started getting in trouble for things they used to get by with. No longer were they allowed to share hay piles with their betters, or prime loafing spots in the lean-to, or rough house with them.

Fortunately, I never had an orphan foal, but I can say with certainty that I would not have been able to put it down. I do have a 17 year old brat that was raised by his mama though. He'll do anything you ask but Lord have mercy on you if you demand. Over the years I've had several offers on him because he is a looker, but I figured he'd either hurt someone or be sent to the meat market so I always refused. When I went into the breeding business I went into knowing I'd keep the ones not fit to sell. Truth be told I've kept a few who were fit to sell too LOL.


----------



## jennigrey

Teej said:


> I guess I have weird horses. Back in the day when I was still breeding, the mare herd would let the foals get by with about anything without correction. At weaning time when they were put in with my old gelding and any of the mares without foals they also would let them get by with being brats. Then come yearling year and that's when the elders quit putting up with their nonsense. It was always so funny to watch the confusion on those little baby faces when they suddenly started getting in trouble for things they used to get by with. No longer were they allowed to share hay piles with their betters, or prime loafing spots in the lean-to, or rough house with them.


I think that's pretty typical. I've always seen mommas let their own foals get away with an awful lot. Sometimes even after weaning. Initially, mommas are there to nurture and not discipline. But they do draw the line. It can be seldom and it can be over in a second, but they do put their foot down even with the babies.


----------



## bergere

I know a few Icelandic mares, that will let any foal nurse with their foals. They just love babies.
They have even been known to try to steal other mare's foals.... 
Never seen anything like it in any other breed. 

I know with Stjarna's last foal,, Edda..(man I wish I could of kept her) any way... she got away with a whole lot of stuff with her Dam. But Stjarna did put her hoof down so to speak when she got really rude. 
However, with her Aunties... they didn't tolerate half of what Stjarna did, so they kept her in line.


----------



## SFM in KY

bergere said:


> However, with her Aunties... they didn't tolerate half of what Stjarna did, so they kept her in line.


This is why I really try very hard not to raise a 'single' foal and much prefer them to be raised in a herd environment. They learn discipline early in life and it makes the transition from "horse boss" to "people boss" much easier when you start training.


----------



## CraterCove

It's really interesting to hear about everyone's experiences with foals and their mothers. I'll confess to you that I can't _stand_ so called 'imprinting' which I've seen little evidence of such things working with mammals-- it's mostly a bird thing as far as I know. I watched a video recently where someone was imprinting a not even one day old foal and it turned my stomach. What is there to be gained by overstimulating an infant to the point where they just lay there and react to nothing, including the mother (disturbed by the foal's lack of movement) biting his hind quarters. I think it's telling that in the video the mother is on a halter and lead rope and they are in a very small paddock area. 

Does hard core imprinting bother anyone else? I mean, when I've been around foals, I never approached the baby, I approached the mother and when she is comfortable the foal is naturally curious and will approach and they have little if any inhibitions about being touched. The video I'm talking about... let me find it: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45jz46C6Hn8[/ame] And correction, apparently the foal is one day old. I just don't see the point in this at all, to me it seems like interfering in the foal and mare bonding and seems, to me, to be really stressful on them. Do horses learn from stress? Not in my experience, they learn in the release of stress.


----------



## SFM in KY

CraterCove said:


> Does hard core imprinting bother anyone else? I mean, when I've been around foals, I never approached the baby, I approached the mother and when she is comfortable the foal is naturally curious and will approach and they have little if any inhibitions about being touched.


I am definitely anti-imprinting. Personally, the less I have to handle a young foal the better, for me, especially in the first 24 to 48 hours. The only thing I do is iodine the navel as long as there are no issues.

I never imprint my own foals and the very few young horses I've worked with that were imprinted I've found to be pushy and not respectful of people.


----------



## bergere

I handled my foals just enough, to be able to have their hooves done, de wormed and stuff like, that... without getting hurt. 
Other than that, I waited until they were older. 

Except for Theia... Theia was nasty, nasty little pain in the backside, the minute she was born. Never touched her,, but after a few weeks of putting up with her.... in the herd.... She was so aggressive, even doing nothing with her, she was annoying. Kicking, striking, biting... Couldn't even go clean the hen house out without her coming across the pasture at you. She meant business too.
Almost funny how a tiny mini foal you hadn't touch,,, had it out for all people.
Surprised that came out of wee Maggie.
Anyway, she got so bad you couldn't go in the pasture, worse than any Ram I have ever had.
So DH would go out in pasture and pick her up, body hug like a dog.. she could try to kick, strike and bite but because of the way he held, she couldn't connect.
She finally figured out she could no longer get away with sad bad behavior,,, she stopped.
Still would give you stink eye.. but even when she grew up, she figured DH would come out and pick her up, so she behaved. LOL
Luckily, she was a tiny mini horse foal. If she had been a big horse foal, would of had her put down.

She did finally turn out to be a pretty good mini. But man... she is the only one I have ever, had to deal with like that.


----------



## Irish Pixie

That video is "how not to" imprint. Imprinting is not forcing a baby at a day or 2 old to do anything- it's to get a foal used to being handled and should be done 5 minutes at a time. No over stimulation, just used to humans touching them. Basically learning to be a horse. My weanlings stood for trimming, brushing, deworming, etc., walked solidly, tied, fly sprayed, clipped, and loaded, all willingly. 

I've only owned one horse that wasn't imprinted at all and she was a train wreck. Barely handled, I don't think she'd ever had her feet handled (it took my very patient farrier and I three weeks just to get her trimmed the first time) she didn't lead well, she didn't load well, basically this mare (I believe she was 6) was just never handled. It wasn't that she was a bad mare, although I could never trust her, she just had never experienced anything that "normal" horses handle as routine. I had her 2-3 years and she was better when she left here but she would never be a "handled" horse and it's too bad as she's athletic with good conformation. I couldn't in good conscience just pass her off to someone else and as a result lost a good bit of money on her. I saw her for sale again for a couple hundred bucks with no takers.


----------



## CraterCove

Irish Pixie said:


> That video is "how not to" imprint. Imprinting is not forcing a baby at a day or 2 old to do anything- it's to get a foal used to being handled and should be done 5 minutes at a time. No over stimulation, just used to humans touching them. Basically learning to be a horse. My weanlings stood for trimming, brushing, deworming, etc., walked solidly, tied, fly sprayed, clipped, and loaded, all willingly.
> 
> I've only owned one horse that wasn't imprinted at all and she was a train wreck. Barely handled, I don't think she'd ever had her feet handled (it took my very patient farrier and I three weeks just to get her trimmed the first time) she didn't lead well, she didn't load well, basically this mare (I believe she was 6) was just never handled. It wasn't that she was a bad mare, although I could never trust her, she just had never experienced anything that "normal" horses handle as routine. I had her 2-3 years and she was better when she left here but she would never be a "handled" horse and it's too bad as she's athletic with good conformation. I couldn't in good conscience just pass her off to someone else and as a result lost a good bit of money on her. I saw her for sale again for a couple hundred bucks with no takers.



That's unfortunate for her, and for you. I know I feel an incredible amount of responsibility for every animal I take into my household. I guess it's why I'm not good at selling animals. Even ones I would end up using for meat--- I'd just rather handle it all myself because I don't want them to be mishandled. No, there really is no such thing as a 'humane' death, but I just don't feel like anyone else is going to have the respect and care for them like I do. I want as calm and painless a passing for them as possible and I don't trust anyone else to do that but me. I've been lucky that all my goats born here so far have been does because when it comes time to put a buck in the freezer, I know I'll do it but I won't promise no tears at the sacrifice and I will make certain every single bit of him that's possible to use is. I'll not have a life I've shepherded wasted.

And what you're talking about Ms. Pixie seems like a normal thing, calm handling nothing traumatic like in that video, and reasonable expectations of the foal.


----------



## Bret4207

I believe in getting in there and letting a foal know they being handled is okay. I don't go for the working them into submission thing, but letting them know people and handling is a normal thing works for me. 

As far as the orphan thing goes, I'd put money on 90% or more of Americas horse owners not having, or taking, the time to really work with their horses. I know I don't have the time. I doubt any of us in that group could possibly be capable of raising a sane foal. Most people think of a horse like they an ATV- you start it up, it runs, you have fun, you put it away. (There's the other group, the one I belong to, where you feed them and clean up after them and never seem to get tot he FUN part!) Those are the horse owners with the aggressive, barn sour, head cases that the trainers make their living off of. A lot of those people would be better off renting a horse than owning one.


----------



## wr

I prefer to let the mare do her job, as nature intended so I don't care for imprinting but like just about everything else, what works for me may not work for someone else.


----------



## malinda

I know this thread has drifted a bit, but I only recently saw the Buck movie too.

Why does Buck have his assistant ride that rank stallion in the first place? Wouldn't you want to work on his manners before you ever think about riding him? Or is it just for show - for the clinic or for the movie?

And, is it just me or do trainers like Buck seem to attract horse owners like that lady with her 18 stallions??


----------



## CraterCove

I think that 80% of horse owners are female. I also (keep in mind that I am female) 80% of those females are silly little kept creatures who think that the world is fair and that ponies crap rainbows. I'm not surprised that Buck or trainers like him attract ladies like 18 stallion girl because they seem to be far more common than not. Also, Buck is kind, and while he calls chika crazy he is nice about it and she doesn't change because he doesn't force her to. I doubt that her life goes well after this point or that she ever really took any of what he said to heart.

As to having the assistant handle it? Mmmm well, if I was cynical I'd say Buck knew what that little stud was going to do before he did it and that he did not put himself in a position to be injured. But I actually suspect even if that were true that he had a talk with Dan and told him how likely such an event was going to be. Miracles with horses like that don't happen over night, if they ever happen at all. That is my guess.


----------



## malinda

But why doesn't George Morris attract people like "18 stallions woman"???

I guess I live in a different horse world, because in two seconds George Morris would rip that woman a new one without blinking. I agree that many horse owners are female, but I disagree that that woman represents the majority of women horse owners. I've attended and ridden in clinics with George Williams, Jen and Jon Holling, and Ralph Hill and we women horse owners can RIDE, we can handle our horses, and we are there to learn, not be coddled. We also have regular local trainers who we work with on a regular basis - the clinics are just extra input, not a once in a while thing for DIYers.

In decades past, I've attended John Lyons clinics, Pat Parelli, and the like. They DO attract women like "18 stallions woman" to their clinics.


----------



## Grey Mare

My mentor who has been instrumental in teaching me the finer points of draft driving once told me that the reason woman have stallions, be them with good manners or rank, is because they are trying to prove something to the world. I have seen stallions that woman had NO business handling or working with, I have even tried to have our local draft horse club change the rules about woman handling and/or showing an adult draft horse stallion. Boy did I get flack for that, but I had my reasons. 

I think Buck didn't become curt or rude or hard on 18 stallion woman simply because he knew that no matter what he said, what he showed her, she wasn't going to change. I don't think it was because he was putting on a show or anything else. If I had been in his shoes having to deal with this wackado I doubt I too would of tried to explain to her why she should of gelded that horse and the other 17 myself....you can't fix stupid.

As for horse woman can ride....some can...some can't. Other females ride to attract attention, some have something they want, have or need to prove by riding, others own horses for the bragging rights, some have horses to fill a void and lord help me with the woman who say their horse is their "baby or child". etc. I have always preferred to ride with people who want to be out with their horse, who can ride and if they can't but want to learn, that is okay too. We had a neighbor down the road who, because she had "Native American" blood in her, fancied herself the next best Indian princess around and could out-ride anyone...sorry for her but she is why I only rode with her twice, the attitude is very off putting, she wore low cut blouses or shirts, her horse was a snot of a mare, and was only out to attract attention to herself and she wasn't that good of a ride anyway. 

I ride by myself because I can. I don't have anything to prove, I am a self taught western rider, meaning I never could afford to take lessons. I grew up in the saddle though, herding cows off the mountains in the fall in Nevada, we rode 4-H, rodeo's, trail riding with my dad, all the joy of growing up working them. I don't talk much when I ride because I love to hear the sounds around me.


----------



## Irish Pixie

malinda said:


> But why doesn't George Morris attract people like "18 stallions woman"???
> 
> I guess I live in a different horse world, because in two seconds George Morris would rip that woman a new one without blinking. I agree that many horse owners are female, but I disagree that that woman represents the majority of women horse owners. I've attended and ridden in clinics with George Williams, Jen and Jon Holling, and Ralph Hill and we women horse owners can RIDE, we can handle our horses, and we are there to learn, not be coddled. We also have regular local trainers who we work with on a regular basis - the clinics are just extra input, not a once in a while thing for DIYers.
> 
> In decades past, I've attended John Lyons clinics, Pat Parelli, and the like. They DO attract women like "18 stallions woman" to their clinics.


I'm only familiar with George Morris on your list, and I totally agree he would rip "18 stallions" to pieces, but George doesn't sell anything except his clinics which are prized. Even Buck B sells books and DVDS and the rest of the "trainers" (I use the term loosely) sell gimmicky training aids to make it "easy" for anyone to train. I think that's what brings in that subset of horse owner (female and male) plus they've messed up their horses to the point where they must be fixed.


----------



## SFM in KY

malinda said:


> And, is it just me or do trainers like Buck seem to attract horse owners like that lady with her 18 stallions??


I think they attract that kind of person because horse owners that are essentially not horsemen/ horsewomen to begin with view Natural Horsemanship with the touchy/feely hug-your-horse mindset. It isn't, but those non-horsepeople interpret it as such rather than as a method of learning how your horse thinks/reacts and knowing how to present training so the horse understands what you're asking.

I think many of the highly successful big-name NH trainers are those that have very high 'people' skills and are marketing to those people. The best of the NH trainers tend to be true horsemen that often do not have the people skills to deal with the non-horsemen and never get the recognition.

As I've mentioned before, I was lucky enough to be introduced to NH in clinics with Ray Hunt ... who did very well with the ranch cowboys that made up most of his clinics in the early days in MT/WY ... but not so well with the horsemanship clinics where there were a few of the PETA type owners even back in the 70s in that area.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Grey Mare, the majority of woman in my experience do not own stallions to prove they can, they own them for breeding purposes. They also show them, trail ride, and drive them. It's ridiculous to try to implement rules to ban a woman from owning/handling a stallion. Would those stallions act better if handled by a man? No, because chances are they were/are rank stallions that wouldn't be handled well by anyone, male or female. The problem is with the training of the stallion not the gender of the handler.


----------



## CraterCove

I grew up just south of San Fransisco in California so.... My experience is more than likely a little skewed. People I knew who had horses, the barns I hung out at, were filled with 'I don't have children but i do have disposable income' and 'My horse is a status symbol'. It was few and far between the people with actual knowledge and real skill. Mostly those people were eternally broke handyman types whose place in the world was gradually slipping away. Used to be farm hands in the area or in CA at large and were finding themselves pushed out and marginalized as the flavor of California changed from farmers and ranchers to bankers and yuppies and hippies.

That lady needed to be ripped a new one. I don't know how some nosey busy body has not called the spca on her or something for public endangerment. I'm pretty sure that if one of her horses was that rank then likely as not he's more the norm than the exception. 

On the women who keep studs front? Yeah I kind of agree there, folks who feel they need to prove something to the world. I think I'll do that in a less potentially hazardous to my insurance rates way, myself.


----------



## Grey Mare

Irish Pixie said:


> Grey Mare, the majority of woman in my experience do not own stallions to prove they can, they own them for breeding purposes. They also show them, trail ride, and drive them. It's ridiculous to try to implement rules to ban a woman from owning/handling a stallion. Would those stallions act better if handled by a man? No, because chances are they were/are rank stallions that wouldn't be handled well by anyone, male or female. The problem is with the training of the stallion not the gender of the handler.


Irish Pixie...when you have had a 2100lb, 18H Clydesdale stallion go after you, your mare, kick your husband backwards and almost break his legs, and try to kill a gelding that was tied to a nearby trailer, after the stallion got loose and his owners had NO clue, who was btw, female, then we can talk. And afterwords the same people NEVER came over to see how badly hurt my husband was or if my mare had been bred, which thankfully she wasn't, though she laid that stallions legs open for his rude behavior. 

As a woman, I think that most woman, but not all, have NO BUSINESS handling at least, draft stallions or ones that are rank. I don't care what your experience is, I have yet to see one who can do so with proper skill and experience. A man has the strength to at least be better able to hold that animal should it decide it wanted to go one way instead of the way you wanted it to go or keep it in check. Ignorance is no excuse. I also feel they have something to prove by doing so and in the end, it is the animal who suffers, not them.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Grey Mare said:


> Irish Pixie...when you have had a 2100lb, 18H Clydesdale stallion go after you, your mare, kick your husband backwards and almost break his legs, and try to kill a gelding that was tied to a nearby trailer, after the stallion got loose and his owners had NO clue, who was btw, female, then we can talk. And afterwords the same people NEVER came over to see how badly hurt my husband was or if my mare had been bred, which thankfully she wasn't, though she laid that stallions legs open for his rude behavior.
> 
> As a woman, I think that most woman, but not all, have NO BUSINESS handling at least, draft stallions or ones that are rank. I don't care what your experience is, I have yet to see one who can do so with proper skill and experience. A man has the strength to at least be better able to hold that animal should it decide it wanted to go one way instead of the way you wanted it to go or keep it in check. Ignorance is no excuse. I also feel they have something to prove by doing so and in the end, it is the animal who suffers, not them.


My point was would the stallion have done the same thing with a man? It's not the gender of the handler, it's the training.

Do you think the stallion can smell a man's testosterone and immediately behave? 

ETA: Do you really feel that either gender can control a full sized horse of any gender? They can't, it's physically impossible, that's why horses are trained.


----------



## CraterCove

SFM in KY said:


> *I think they attract that kind of person because horse owners that are essentially not horsemen/ horsewomen to begin with view Natural Horsemanship with the touchy/feely hug-your-horse mindset.* It isn't, but those non-horsepeople interpret it as such rather than as a method of learning how your horse thinks/reacts and knowing how to present training so the horse understands what you're asking.
> 
> *I think many of the highly successful big-name NH trainers are those that have very high 'people' skills and are marketing to those people.* The best of the NH trainers tend to be true horsemen that often do not have the people skills to deal with the non-horsemen and never get the recognition.
> 
> As I've mentioned before, I was lucky enough to be introduced to NH in clinics with Ray Hunt ... who did very well with the ranch cowboys that made up most of his clinics in the early days in MT/WY ... but not so well with the horsemanship clinics where there were a few of the PETA type owners even back in the 70s in that area.


This, yes, definitely. This group of horse owners are where all your money is going to be made. They will be loyal to the end repeat customers all through their lives or at least until they give up and sell their horses. And maybe you genuinely think you can help their animals by trying to help them and it's not all to make a buck.

Also, true PETA believers would never own a horse. PETA wants us to free all domesticated animals from oppression and what can live in a natural environment do and the others die. They want no pets, no food animals, no companion animals no service animals of any kind. The pet owners that are PETA oriented are, quite frankly, IMO, tools that they use to further their ends.


----------



## CraterCove

Irish Pixie said:


> My point was would the stallion have done the same thing with a man? It's not the gender of the handler, it's the training.
> 
> Do you think the stallion can smell a man's testosterone and immediately behave?


You know, I think that men naturally are more assertive, it's not bashing women to say that it's acknowledging evolution or design (whichever one believes). I think that women are perfectly capable of being just as effective as men with horses but that they oft times have to learn to be assertive without being a-holes or cruel. A lot of women tend to associate strength and assertive with aggressive and mean... even though it's really not the same at all. Aggression comes from a place of fear while assertive top horse qualities come from a place of surety and calm.


----------



## Irish Pixie

CraterCove said:


> You know, I think that men naturally are more assertive, it's not bashing women to say that it's acknowledging evolution or design (whichever one believes). I think that women are perfectly capable of being just as effective as men with horses but that they oft times have to learn to be assertive without being a-holes or cruel. A lot of women tend to associate strength and assertive with aggressive and mean... even though it's really not the same at all. Aggression comes from a place of fear while assertive top horse qualities come from a place of surety and calm.


Perhaps you don't know many competent horse women. I do.


----------



## CraterCove

Irish Pixie said:


> Perhaps you don't know many competent horse women. I do.


You know what? You are absolutely correct.


----------



## Work horse

malinda said:


> But why doesn't George Morris attract people like "18 stallions woman"???
> 
> I guess I live in a different horse world, because in two seconds George Morris would rip that woman a new one without blinking. I agree that many horse owners are female, but I disagree that that woman represents the majority of women horse owners. I've attended and ridden in clinics with George Williams, Jen and Jon Holling, and Ralph Hill and we women horse owners can RIDE, we can handle our horses, and we are there to learn, not be coddled. We also have regular local trainers who we work with on a regular basis - the clinics are just extra input, not a once in a while thing for DIYers.
> 
> *In decades past, I've attended John Lyons clinics, Pat Parelli, and the like. They DO attract women like "18 stallions woman" to their clinic*s.


To be fair, we are talking about two completely different things -- riding clinics vs ground work clinics. Of course you are going to get people who are having trouble with their horses on the ground, at ground work clinics. 

And let's not pretend the hunter/jumper world doesn't have it's own level of crazy 

Anyways, I saw the movie about a year ago, and I actually cried when I saw just how completely ruined that stallion was. I had never seen anything like that before and I hope I never will again.


----------



## Bret4207

malinda said:


> But why doesn't George Morris attract people like "18 stallions woman"???
> 
> I guess I live in a different horse world, because in two seconds George Morris would rip that woman a new one without blinking. I agree that many horse owners are female, but I disagree that that woman represents the majority of women horse owners. I've attended and ridden in clinics with George Williams, Jen and Jon Holling, and Ralph Hill and we women horse owners can RIDE, we can handle our horses, and we are there to learn, not be coddled. We also have regular local trainers who we work with on a regular basis - the clinics are just extra input, not a once in a while thing for DIYers.
> 
> In decades past, I've attended John Lyons clinics, Pat Parelli, and the like. They DO attract women like "18 stallions woman" to their clinics.



I've heard of Lyons, Parelli, Anderson, etc. I've never even heard of any of the other folks you mention. Maybe that's why they don't attract the 18 stud ladies. There's a guy on You Tube named Rick Gore who has totally PO'd about half a million women as far as I can tell because he tells them they "need to put your big girl panties on now and listen". You don't see Clinton Anderson saying it plain like that. That's probably why Clinton is a gazillionaire and Rick Gore is a nobody on You Tube.



As far as the ladies with the stallions thing, IMO there are a lot of ladies out there who are still 13 on the inside and trying to create the dream they had of being just like Trixie Belden, Velvet Whatshername or whoever the hero of those girl/horse books was. I don't care where you look, be it "Snowy River", "Hil----" or the Hallmark Channel, there's always a stud horse that's the ultimate challenge and prize. As SWMBO told me once, "I just want to do something special." I think a lot of the ladies out there with the studs are in that group, looking to be "special". I don't see that in guys so much as far as studs go. I don't know why that is. I've never wanted a stud, ever. All I want is access to a stud. I have no illusions about handling a stud, I've seen what they can be like and want no part of it. 

And to be honest, I'm still about 13 on the inside too and dream of being a good rider and horseman, just like the heroes in those books I read. Nothing wrong with dreaming till it gets you hurt.


----------



## CraterCove

Yeah in my youtube travels (this is what I do when I am bored, too drunk to type, can't sleep ect.) I have come across Rick Gore. I think he's pretty cool and his horses speak for his horsemanship. Both his guys Tanner? and Buddy were horses that someone else gave up on and were discarding as dangerous. If I recall correctly. I like him because he seems to think a lot like I do  but I watch Pat and Clint and lots of others too. I believe in receiving as many inputs as possible so i have a large library to draw from when I have an issue.

Mostly I just watch Rick Gore to hear him crack himself up and laugh  it makes me happy.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Grey Mare said:


> My mentor who has been instrumental in teaching me the finer points of draft driving once told me that the reason woman have stallions, be them with good manners or rank, is because they are trying to prove something to the world. I have seen stallions that woman had NO business handling or working with, I have even tried to have our local draft horse club change the rules about woman handling and/or showing an adult draft horse stallion. Boy did I get flack for that, but I had my reasons.
> 
> .


How did that work out for you? Usually blatant sexist regulation falls pretty flat. 

BTW, I used to ride a breeding stallion and I did it because he was far more talented than my own horse at jumping and dressage. He was a well-behaved gentleman and he was owned and trained by, OMG!!!! A woman, who had another well trained breeding stallion. She was quite successful with them and I never got any sense that she had something to prove.


----------



## SFM in KY

Grey Mare said:


> Irish Pixie...when you have had a 2100lb, 18H Clydesdale stallion go after you, your mare, kick your husband backwards and almost break his legs, and try to kill a gelding that was tied to a nearby trailer, after the stallion got loose and his owners had NO clue, who was btw, female, then we can talk.
> 
> As a woman, I think that most woman, but not all, have NO BUSINESS handling at least, draft stallions or ones that are rank. I don't care what your experience is, I have yet to see one who can do so with proper skill and experience.


This is the kind of stallion that should not be handled by anyone, male or female ... should not be a stallion IMHO. It sounds like this one was a candidate for gelding and retraining and I've had stallions like that and they didn't stay stallions.

I apparently have had much different exposure to women handling horses ... I've seen as many women handle stallions who were competent as I have men but then I was raised and spent most of my life in 'ranch country' where both men and women grew up working with horses of all kinds.

I've handled breeding stallions for years, from ponies to draft stallions, have a number of female horse breeding friends who also handle stallions, have watched them handle stallions and they have no more issues with stallions than the men I know who handle stallions.

With stallions, it's experience plus training ... not an inherent inability to handle a stallion.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Grey Mare said:


> Irish Pixie...when you have had a 2100lb, 18H Clydesdale stallion go after you, your mare, kick your husband backwards and almost break his legs, and try to kill a gelding that was tied to a nearby trailer, after the stallion got loose and his owners had NO clue, who was btw, female, then we can talk. And afterwords the same people NEVER came over to see how badly hurt my husband was or if my mare had been bred, which thankfully she wasn't, though she laid that stallions legs open for his rude behavior.


So only your experience stands? How about all of the women here who have had, ridden or handled stallions and do a fantastic job. I've been to SFM's farm and met her stallions. She's a little bitty woman and her stallions behave well. My friend's stallions are the same. 
So these experiences aren't valid because the aren't the same as yours?


----------



## Lisa in WA

Bret4207 said:


> I've heard of Lyons, Parelli, Anderson, etc. I've never even heard of any of the other folks you mention. Maybe that's why they don't attract the 18 stud ladies. There's a guy on You Tube named Rick Gore who has totally PO'd about half a million women as far as I can tell because he tells them they "need to put your big girl panties on now and listen". You don't see Clinton Anderson saying it plain like that. That's probably why Clinton is a gazillionaire and Rick Gore is a nobody on You Tube.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as the ladies with the stallions thing, IMO there are a lot of ladies out there who are still 13 on the inside and trying to create the dream they had of being just like Trixie Belden, Velvet Whatshername or whoever the hero of those girl/horse books was. I don't care where you look, be it "Snowy River", "Hil----" or the Hallmark Channel, there's always a stud horse that's the ultimate challenge and prize. As SWMBO told me once, "I just want to do something special." I think a lot of the ladies out there with the studs are in that group, looking to be "special". I don't see that in guys so much as far as studs go. I don't know why that is. I've never wanted a stud, ever. All I want is access to a stud. I have no illusions about handling a stud, I've seen what they can be like and want no part of it.
> 
> And to be honest, I'm still about 13 on the inside too and dream of being a good rider and horseman, just like the heroes in those books I read. Nothing wrong with dreaming till it gets you hurt.


Wasn't Trixie Belden a girl detective like Nancy Drew. I don't remember a stallion thing. Also, in National Velvet, "The Pie" was a gelding.
Maybe you don't remember, however...Alec and The Black Stallion. Pretty sure Alec was a boy.


----------



## Molly Mckee

I think to say only men should handle stallions is like saying only women should be large animal vets. It's just silly. An extra 100 pounds, even if it is muscle, isn't going to change the outcome if a large animal of any type decides to blow up. One of the best large animal vets we've had was about 5 feet tall and 90lbs, recommended by a local, "good old boy" rancher. She grew up in west TX on a ranch and knew how to handle animals. It's experience, not size that allows you to handle horses or other large animals. ( or a really well trained horse, but that can wear off).

We had stallions when we were breeding horses and they were well behaved because we expected it. One of my favorite horses was an stallion, he was very even tempered, well trained, and always willing to do what you asked. If you saw him out on the trail you would never know that he was a stallion unless you looked. He behaved like all horses should and was a joy to be around.


----------



## malinda

Work horse said:


> To be fair, we are talking about two completely different things -- riding clinics vs ground work clinics. Of course you are going to get people who are having trouble with their horses on the ground, at ground work clinics.
> 
> And let's not pretend the hunter/jumper world doesn't have it's own level of crazy
> 
> Anyways, I saw the movie about a year ago, and I actually cried when I saw just how completely ruined that stallion was. I had never seen anything like that before and I hope I never will again.


 
I never mentioned anything about a ground work clinic.

Save for George Morris (who I mentioned because he is probably the toughest trainer to ever ride under), none of the other trainers I've mentioned are part of the "hunter/jumper" world.

I've seen more than a few (and have heard of many, many more) upper level Dressage and Eventing riders/clinicians ream a person out for being severely over-horsed, or riding at a level they or their horse have neither the talent nor the skills for. I've not seen anything like that from any of the NH type trainers. They seem to cater to beginner riders/owners and do quite a bit of coddling to people like 18 stallion woman.


----------



## malinda

Another amusing (ha, to me anyway) anecdote:

I work on a farm with two (formerly three, but one was recently gelded) approved Trakehner stallions. The stallions are owned by two men, but the owners hired three women to train, ride, compete, and handle them and the other 58 horses on the farm.


----------



## Molly Mckee

We don't know what ended up on the cutting room floor in the Buck Brannaman video either.

His cousin was my DD college room mate for two years and she knows him. According to my DD he knows what he is doing. He is kind and polite but can be blunt. The 18 stallions lady is not his kind of horseperson.


----------



## CraterCove

Ooookay... didn't actually see how I was claiming to be an expert in anything there.


----------



## SFM in KY

malinda said:


> I've seen more than a few (and have heard of many, many more) upper level Dressage and Eventing riders/clinicians ream a person out for being severely over-horsed, or riding at a level they or their horse have neither the talent nor the skills for. I've not seen anything like that from any of the NH type trainers. They seem to cater to beginner riders/owners and do quite a bit of coddling to people like 18 stallion woman.


Many of the NH clinicians who 'cater' seem to do it because this is their market ... these are the people that pay the fees to fill the clinics. These trainers are very knowledgeable about what 'sells' ... and how to best appeal to their market.

There are NH trainers who do not cater, but in general they are not names with the public recognition of Lyons and Parelli and that crowd. I've mentioned Ray Hunt before ... mention his name in a small 'cowboy cafe' in a small ranch town and every cowboy/ranch hand there would nod their head. Mention Lyons and Parelli and you'd usually get a rude remark. There were and are NH trainers whose goal is passing on their knowledge to other horsemen ... there are many, many more whose goal is fame and fortune.


----------



## Molly Mckee

Even if you don't like horses, I think you would would still like Clint Anderson. He's cute, and funny! He puts on an interesting clinic.

Personally, I think that if you get one good idea from one of these guys, the tape or clinics are worth it. IMO people who run into trouble are the ones who try to mimic them, they think with a short clinic they are able to train anything and discount the years of experience the trainers all have.


----------



## Otter

Plenty of highly offensive stuff has been said here, but one I actually laughed right at the screen at.

EVERY farm and ranch I've ever worked or trained at, women handled the stallions. Several good old horseman would flat out tell you that they switched to women handlers because men don't have the temperament for it (not saying I agree, just saying what they said) One put it in the memorable fashion "A fellow has to get to be about my age before he's got it through his head that a stallion's balls are bigger. And if he gets to be my age he'll be smart enough to have someone else do it."

Sorry, when you're dealing with a Clyde that weighs a ton, as someone else said, going from a hundred pounds to 2oo pounds matters not a whisker.

The _one_ place I worked that at first insisted "women can't handle studs" made a very quick turnabout. A couple days after I got there, the barn manager came stomping out, flung a halter into the tack room and announced "The Stud" could just stay in. I went in (the other horses were kept elsewhere, because you "can't keep other horses near A Stud") to see what kind of fire-breathing dragon they had and there was the cutest little 2 yo half grown Paint snorting and carrying on. I told him he was a silly thing, went in, caught him a good one when he pinned his ears, put his halter on and led him out.  And was the stallion handler from that day forward. 

And oh, my goodness. From stallions to who should vote. I'm glad that a couple of folks here _aren't_ in charge. Imagine being able to know every thing about everyone and still being able to make huge, sweeping statements like that. Why, the world must be clear black and white and here I spent my whole life thinking it was a thousand different colours!


----------



## Irish Pixie

Perhaps you need to get out more and actually meet some experienced horse women. I think you'll find that testosterone is not needed to handle stallions.

I'm embarrassed that a woman actually believes that...


----------



## Grey Mare

Wow...amazing how I can't have any of my own thoughts and views based on facts and what I have seen, I am now being questioned if I like Anne Coulter or not and that I seem to lead a sheltered life. And please, no need to be "embarrassed", at least I say what I mean and stand by it. Just because I feel the way I do DOES NOT mean I don't think woman shouldn't vote or shouldn't drive a car, or stay home and have babies, or not hold a job, etc...grow up. 

As for SFM, I don't know her, I have never seen her handle a stallion nor would I make that assumption that she can or can't. My views are from what I have seen. I mean no disrespect to SFM because I don't know her and won't judge her.


----------



## SFM in KY

Just as a note from personal experience ... I've stood several of my own stallions for years and have also handled a number of stallions for other owners as well ... started with collecting for shipped/cooled semen in the early 90s in an area where the local vets didn't have the equipment and I did.

I've handled several warmblood stallions, including my own foundation Oldenburg stallion (who was 16.3 hands, easily as tall as many draft stallions) and a Westfalen stallion that was 17.1 hands. Stood a Shire stallion for two years for a local owner and found him one of the best behaved breeding stallions I've ever handled, incidentally. Handled a jack for a breeder who was crossing to gaited mares for gaited mules, handled pony stallions of four different breeds and raised several of my own stallions of several different breeds.

I don't train or handle stallions any differently than I do mares or geldings, other than knowing they are definitely more distractable, especially around other horses, or when breeding, and I always remain very aware of that.

The most difficult stallion I ever worked with was a 12 hand Welsh Pony stallion that was brought to me to be trained to collect. He was older, had never had much training of any kind, had been pasture bred extensively and he was nasty. 

This was fairly recent, I was in my late 60s at the time, and definitely didn't feel the need to prove to anything to anyone about my horse handling abilities. I ended up sending him back to his owner with a polite suggestion that he be gelded and started under saddle as a hunter pony.


----------



## wr

I've trained and ridden studs and an ill mannered horse is an ill mannered horse and I'm afraid that if you have an ill mannered horse, human brawn will not force one into submission. Logically, a 200 lb man or a 120 lb woman is out sized and out muscled by a 1200 lb horse or a 2000 lb bull. 

I don't feel I've had anything to 'prove' by riding studs but I do have a strong belief that they need to be well trained and in my opinion, work and use keep manners and respect in place. therefore can be ridden within close proximity of cycling mares with no behavioral issues at all. 

Does that mean I think studs are for everyone? Absolutely not and they certainly shouldn't be ridden by anyone who feels that they can be controlled by brawn.


----------



## CraterCove

No horse is controlled by brawn... well I guess you could manage to bully some poor miniature but they still have better teeth for biting than a human. I don't think it's about strength when it comes to a horse, stud or otherwise. 

I really think that horsemanship, period, male or female is fading. People do tend to treat horses as something they do for an hour on Saturday or something like that. And hoarding seems to be some sort of weird first world problem we seem to either be having issues with more and more or it's just suddenly got crazy exposure. 18 Stud Lady seems to fit the profile of animal hoarder. I'll bet she's got one heck of a story...


----------



## Teej

Wow! And here I thought I had lived beyond the era of people thinking of women as inferior beings.:shocked:


----------



## CraterCove

Teej said:


> Wow! And here I thought I had lived beyond the era of people thinking of women as inferior beings.:shocked:


Why does different mean inferior? Males and females are designed differently, why is that a bad thing? WHy does that mean one needs to be inferior to the other?


----------



## Lisa in WA

CraterCove said:


> Why does different mean inferior? Males and females are designed differently, why is that a bad thing? WHy does that mean one needs to be inferior to the other?


I guess you'd have to ask Grey Mare that. Has someone else been posting under your name in here recently or did that whole part about women not being able to handle stallions just whoosh right over your head?

And no, GM didn't use the exact word, "inferior" but it's glaringly apparent that she meant that women are inferior to men in handling stallions, both in practice and intent.


----------



## Teej

Lisa just explained it for you.

I didn't say it was a bad thing for men and women to be designed differently, although I have to say men have it much easier at potty break time out on the trail and that, maybe, is the only time I am envious of male parts.

However, anyone who thinks men can handle any horse, no matter the size or gender, better than a woman... well, I already said it WOW. Don't be confused, I am not saying that all women can handle horses better than any man, nor can any woman handle horses better than all men. It depends on the person not the sex of a person.

When there was a stallion on this farm I had him because I was tired of driving all over creation looking for the perfect mate for my mares. I bought his dam and him when he was 2 months old and the older he got the more characteristics he showed of being that stallion I was always looking for. Had nothing to do with anything more than that. He was NEVER allowed to have any less manners than any other horse on this farm. I can guarantee you that it wasn't a MAN who taught him those manners. In fact, it took me a year to get him back to being a gentleman after he came back from a male trainer.


----------



## Molly Mckee

I do not understand why a stallion can have bad manners and be out of control and it be dismissed as "it's a stallion". It really makes no sense at all. All horses should have good manners, especially stallions. 

I think that people that bring horses they can't control to shows or other public events should be told to leave and it should be forced. People who routinely can't control their horses should be banned. The judge can dismiss a horse that is not under proper control in a class. The show steward has some power outside the ring. It very seldom happens tho..


----------



## bergere

I worked at a number of barns in years past, who had breeding Stallions. The one that stands out, was the Andalusian barn.
Three adult studs, plus the young colts. 
They were highly trained,,, by woman, including two of the three Stallions that did "High School". 
Didn't treat them any different than mares or geldings. Like all the other horse's, they were expected to be on their best behavior.

The last rescue mare I brought home... was a 13.3 hand Icelandic mare.
She was so ill mannered, she would drag her 6'4" big past owner, around... he was a guy, who thought he could lead her with a fist in her flat halter. But she dragged him all over the place like he was nothing.
I taught her manners and to lead politely on a loose lead.

Been around a number of Icelandic stallions too. Small children handle them, most people think they are geldings, they are so easy to handle.
Part is good temperament of course, but the other part is training.

And for mini horse's.... one can't force them to do anything or push them around.
Most have a Neapolitan complex, and super strong, being so close to the ground. Rather like a Tank.


----------



## SFM in KY

bergere said:


> I worked at a number of barns in years past, who had breeding Stallions. The one that stands out, was the Andalusian barn.


Andalusian stallions were my first introduction to well mannered stallions. Before that, the only stallions I had *met* at the ranch were two range studs that were out with their mare herd, one was halter broke, the other had never even had a halter on. 

I was in my 20s when I was first introduced to Andalusian stallions and I was absolutely amazed. At that time the Spanish government had a big livestock upgrade project going which included horses. The government stud sent stallions out to the various areas every spring and horse breeders could go to a central location to select a stallion (or stallions) to stand at their farm and breed their mares to for that season, at a cost of about $10 ... which covered insurance.

I will never forget walking into a huge barn where almost 200 stallions were stabled and seeing that number of stallions standing quietly ... in tie stalls ... side by side and displaying no stallion behavior at all. To this day, I am still amazed.

Another scene that amazed me was watching four mounted police officers that were patrolling in the huge Retiro Park in Madrid taking a 'smoke break' with all four horses standing head to head, reins slack ... and realizing that all four horses were stallions. My friend and I inquired and were told that these were stallions from the government breeding program and they only went back into the breeding program if they were reliable under saddle. If they proved to be 'difficult' in any way, they were gelded and sold.


----------



## Irish Pixie

It just occurred to me that no one has mentioned the absolute worst "new age, natural horsemanship" guru (in my opinion) GaWaNi Ponyboy. This dude is _bad_, and I read he's really from New Jersey.  Using his "training" methods is a train wreck waiting to happen.

The dude is good for laugh tho as long as he doesn't get anyone killed.


----------



## Grey Mare

Why is it so hard for a few of you to admit that not all woman are intelligent and savvy enough to be working or training or be around stallions? Just because I don't think that the woman I HAVE SEEN should, doesn't make me ignorant, illiterate, back in the stone ages, or any other snide comment you wish to levy at me. Over and over I have seen it at shows where woman try to handle a draft stallion and they have no business doing so. I grew tired of waiting for my in hand halter classes and some idiot woman with a stallion was yelling to get out of their way, stallion coming through, etc. If you can't handle them you have no business doing so. 

After the Clydesdale stallion was finally caught and gotten back under control, by a man who was there with his own Fjord stallion, who was very mannerly and polite. He was allowed to be shown by his female owner/handler who barely had control over him for the rest of the day. When we complained and demanded she be told to leave, we were told to shut up, mind our own business, and WE could leave. Two years later, I got tired of the lax rules and stopped showing. This type of behavior I see over and over, again, a lot in the draft community.

So a few select ladies, enough with the condescending comments about how you assume I think about woman. You have NO clue as to what I think or feel or anything else based on my views on this one sole topic. I don't appreciate the comments attacking my intelligence and ideas.


----------



## malinda

Irish Pixie said:


> It just occurred to me that no one has mentioned the absolute worst "new age, natural horsemanship" guru (in my opinion) GaWaNi Ponyboy. This dude is _bad_, and I read he's really from New Jersey.  Using his "training" methods is a train wreck waiting to happen.
> 
> The dude is good for laugh tho as long as he doesn't get anyone killed.


I forgot about him! (Yeah, he was that memorable) I attended one of his clinics 15+ years ago. He really had nothing to say about actual training, he just spoke about his views on American Indians and their relationship with horses. I was hoping for some real training tips/techniques but was very disappointed. He seemed to kind of fade away fairly quickly, I haven't heard much more than a passing mention now and again.


----------



## Irish Pixie

malinda said:


> I forgot about him! (Yeah, he was that memorable) I attended one of his clinics 15+ years ago. He really had nothing to say about actual training, he just spoke about his views on American Indians and their relationship with horses. I was hoping for some real training tips/techniques but was very disappointed. He seemed to kind of fade away fairly quickly, I haven't heard much more than a passing mention now and again.


I had a girl friend that was absolutely in love with him. Gushed over everything he did, I tried to point out that his "training" was horrible but she didn't listen.


----------



## bergere

I agree, there are plenty people, both men and women, that shouldn't be around any horse period!
Seen plenty of train wrecks over the years that could of been avoided, if the owners were willing or able to learn.

Sure that is why cars and motorcycles were invented.  

Though saying that,,, there are a lot of good knowledgeable people here.


----------



## SFM in KY

Grey Mare said:


> Why is it so hard for a few of you to admit that not all woman are intelligent and savvy enough to be working or training or be around stallions? .


It's difficult sometimes to determine the 'tone' of a written post and I think that most of the response was because the people who responded felt you were saying that women should not handle stallions, that they were less effective than a male handler. That may not have been what you meant but in reading your original post, that was certainly the feeling I got and the responses posted seem to indicate others felt that way as well.

I think it would have been less confrontational if your original post had said something to the effect that 'incompetent handlers' should not be handling stallions rather than women should not be handling stallions.

Edited to add: I know I'm particularly sensitive to the "women aren't as good as men with horses and livestock" mindset, an attitude that was established for me when I was in the 6th grade and applied for a job at the local small-farm-town vet office and told the vet I wanted to be a veterinarian. He told me he wanted a boy for the job and that I would have a lot of trouble even getting into vet school because there were limited places available and that "girls quit to get married" so they preferred boys for those positions. That was in the early 1950s ... and I've been dealing with that attitude/mindset most of my life.


----------



## wr

Grey Mare said:


> Why is it so hard for a few of you to admit that not all woman are intelligent and savvy enough to be working or training or be around stallions? Just because I don't think that the woman I HAVE SEEN should, doesn't make me ignorant, illiterate, back in the stone ages, or any other snide comment you wish to levy at me. Over and over I have seen it at shows where woman try to handle a draft stallion and they have no business doing so. I grew tired of waiting for my in hand halter classes and some idiot woman with a stallion was yelling to get out of their way, stallion coming through, etc. If you can't handle them you have no business doing so.
> 
> After the Clydesdale stallion was finally caught and gotten back under control, by a man who was there with his own Fjord stallion, who was very mannerly and polite. He was allowed to be shown by his female owner/handler who barely had control over him for the rest of the day. When we complained and demanded she be told to leave, we were told to shut up, mind our own business, and WE could leave. Two years later, I got tired of the lax rules and stopped showing. This type of behavior I see over and over, again, a lot in the draft community.
> 
> So a few select ladies, enough with the condescending comments about how you assume I think about woman. You have NO clue as to what I think or feel or anything else based on my views on this one sole topic. I don't appreciate the comments attacking my intelligence and ideas.


I saw a man beat the stuffing out of a lively filly once but that doesn't mean all men beat the stuffing out of fillies nor do I feel that all men should not be allowed to ride fillies or mares. I simply concluded that some people just don't have the skills or abilities to handle horses. 

I also watched two men use every bit of strength they had to try and lead a standardbred gelding into a show ring one time, which remains one of the most dangerous things I've ever seen and while I may be wrong, I came to conclude that one can't out power a horse and nothing replaces good training but in hindsight, I guess one could conclude that men just don't have the skill to handle horses well. 

I'm not sure about the rules where you show but any place I've ever shown has a rule indicating that the horse must be in control in the show ring and that would have been sufficient reason to disqualify any out of control horse but as far as you demanding that the rules be changed to disqualify females from showing studs, I can see why it would be met with a rather harsh response.


----------



## CraterCove

Irish Pixie said:


> It just occurred to me that no one has mentioned the absolute worst "new age, natural horsemanship" guru (in my opinion) GaWaNi Ponyboy. This dude is _bad_, and I read he's really from New Jersey.  Using his "training" methods is a train wreck waiting to happen.
> 
> The dude is good for laugh tho as long as he doesn't get anyone killed.


Ok going to have to look him up and see. I mean anything with the term 'new age' attached to it has to be funny, right?


----------



## wr

I think that often, people attend clinics looking for answers and just as often, the answers are made available but people lack the ability to interpret the information presented. 

When Pat Parelli was taking the horse world by storm, I attended a clinic in Calgary and you could literally see people believing that a horse could be trained in an afternoon and human nature being what it is, most were focused very intently on the speaker, which means almost none were focused on reading the horse, the implication that the horse would require further lessons or that a clinic is intended to showcase an individual training style. Within a couple months a whole bunch of failed attempts at the Parelli way were being sold dirt cheap or on their way to the slaughter facility in Fort Macleod. 

I feel that clinics often create the mindset that clinics solve all equine problems and a matter of minutes, create trained horses in an afternoon and anybody can become a trainer if they attend a couple clinics.


----------



## jennigrey

Grey Mare said:


> I have even tried to have our local draft horse club change the rules about woman handling and/or showing an adult draft horse stallion.


I understand that you, your mare and your husband were on the receiving end of a poorly-behaved and mismanaged stallion. I understand that you wanted to do something to prevent an incident like this from happening in the future. However, you fixated on the fact that the stallion's incompetent handler was female and not merely that the stallion was ill-behaved and mismanaged. You might as well have fixated on the breed of the stallion, for all the good it would do you. The gender of the handler was not the problem.

Trying to regulate stallion mismanagement by disallowing female handlers was - at best - misguided. As a female teamster, I would have thought you'd be more sensitive about the pointless sexism that sort of rule would promote. Don't we already have enough of that crap to contend with, as women in the draft world? Don't we already have to be twice as good as our male counterparts before we are given half the respect by some of the mysogynists we have to work alongside?


----------



## SFM in KY

Irish Pixie said:


> It just occurred to me that no one has mentioned the absolute worst "new age, natural horsemanship" guru (in my opinion) GaWaNi Ponyboy.


I was living on a ranch on the Crow Indian reservation when I first heard of him. You should have heard the comments made by *real* Native American horse trainers about him.


----------



## Irish Pixie

jennigrey said:


> I understand that you, your mare and your husband were on the receiving end of a poorly-behaved and mismanaged stallion. I understand that you wanted to do something to prevent an incident like this from happening in the future. However, you fixated on the fact that the stallion's incompetent handler was female and not merely that the stallion was ill-behaved and mismanaged. You might as well have fixated on the breed of the stallion, for all the good it would do you. The gender of the handler was not the problem.
> 
> Trying to regulate stallion mismanagement by disallowing female handlers was - at best - misguided. As a female teamster, I would have thought you'd be more sensitive about the pointless sexism that sort of rule would promote. Don't we already have enough of that crap to contend with, as women in the draft world? Don't we already have to be twice as good as our male counterparts before we are given half the respect by some of the mysogynists we have to work alongside?


Thank you for posting this. It's such a good post that it needs to be read again.


----------



## Bret4207

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Wasn't Trixie Belden a girl detective like Nancy Drew. I don't remember a stallion thing. Also, in National Velvet, "The Pie" was a gelding.
> Maybe you don't remember, however...Alec and The Black Stallion. Pretty sure Alec was a boy.



I can't remember if Trixie was a detective or not. My younger sister used to read her and a bunch of other girl/horse books back in the 70's. If I got her mixed up with someone else then please excuse me. And yes, The Black Stallions pal was a boy, but it was still a stallion that was the center of the story, just like with Hil ----- not sure why the site blanked out that title in my earlier post.

The point I was trying to make wasn't that women are any worse or better with stallions than men, but rather that we seem to see the "18 studs" type of women in trouble relatively often because everyone else can see she's in over her head. I certainly wasn't trying to be offensive. I know a lady that handles Percheron studs, some pretty hot ones, better than anyone else I ever saw except one 86 year old frail little man who just had the "eye" that would get a positive response out of any horse he dealt with. I'll never be anything like either one of them and both have my respect.

If anyone read my posts and got the idea I was saying a woman COULDN'T do anything with studs, then you read wrong. It's the "18 studs" types that are the problem, that they are women is just a side note. There are just as many men out there that can't do squat with horses, cattle, whatever as there are women. It just seems to me, based on my experience, that there is a certain type of women that is a sure bet to become an "18 studs" story, just as there are certain types of men that will always, always, always say something totally inappropriate to a woman or that has to be this or that. It's just people and how they work. It's not all men or all women, just some. And those that are "that way" tend to get noticed. End of story.


----------



## DamnearaFarm

While I realize there are many talented, knowledgable women out there that can/do handle stallions successfully, there are as many, if not more, that can't.

That is the kind of woman who personifies either 'my horse is my baby, where'd my Parelli dvd go again?' or the 'ha! I can prove I'm just as tough as the next guy. Watch me dangle from the stud chain' type. 

Not a lot of woman horse owners (and this could be regional) are firm enough with their horses- be they stallions, geldings or mares. Men seem to be more firm and consistent in the 'hobby' horse genre....at least around here. Perhaps the female/stallion issue has a lot to do with serious horsepeople (totally different species than a 'horse owner') vs. hobby folks?


----------



## Irish Pixie

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> While I realize there are many talented, knowledgable women out there that can/do handle stallions successfully, there are as many, if not more, that can't.
> 
> That is the kind of woman who personifies either 'my horse is my baby, where'd my Parelli dvd go again?' or the 'ha! I can prove I'm just as tough as the next guy. Watch me dangle from the stud chain' type.
> 
> Not a lot of woman horse owners (and this could be regional) are firm enough with their horses- be they stallions, geldings or mares. Men seem to be more firm and consistent in the 'hobby' horse genre....at least around here. Perhaps the female/stallion issue has a lot to do with serious horsepeople (totally different species than a 'horse owner') vs. hobby folks?


If you change all gender references to people/person, I agree with the serious vs. hobby stallion handlers.

I've seen just as many men (if not more) than women that shouldn't be handling stallions. Again, it's not the gender of the handler it's the training of the stallion.


----------



## Molly Mckee

Irish Pixie said:


> If you change all gender references to people/person, I agree with the serious vs. hobby stallion handlers.
> 
> I've seen just as many men (if not more) than women that shouldn't be handling stallions. Again, it's not the gender of the handler it's the training of the stallion.


And the training of the owner/handler, as well!

I would be interested in hearing why GM feels women can't handle stallions. It is possible she has run into more bad women handlers simply because there are more women involved with horses than men.


----------



## wr

I don't disagree that ill mannered horses and unprepared owners are a problem but if the rules aren't enforced (horses must be under control in the show ring/trail area etc), I doubt trying to enforce a bylaw stating that one gender may not be allowed to show/own or ride a stud will do anything other than bring on a class action lawsuit. 

Molly Mckee, I believe that Grey Mare stated that her mentor had originally stated that women should not be allowed to handle studs. There are still old guys out there that believe that women are not strong enough to control an animal but this often comes back to old style brute force training methods and there is a whole other group of old guys that feel that women should not handle studs or bulls because male animals become crazed and violent when 'they smell menstrual blood.'


----------



## DamnearaFarm

Irish Pixie said:


> If you change all gender references to people/person, I agree with the serious vs. hobby stallion handlers.
> 
> I've seen just as many men (if not more) than women that shouldn't be handling stallions. *Again, it's not the gender of the handler it's the training of the stallion. *


True, but typically the stallion was poorly trained by the owner to begin with. It just seems to me that many women let their horses (or any animal) get away with more than a man will. Pretty much all of the present company excluded, based on previous posts and conversations.


----------



## wr

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> True, but typically the stallion was poorly trained by the owner to begin with. It just seems to me that many women let their horses (or any animal) get away with more than a man will. Pretty much all of the present company excluded, based on previous posts and conversations.


This could be for a couple of reasons. It could be a demographic issue simply based on location and the fact that since horse prices have hit rock bottom, free to good home, more people who simply shouldn't own them, can and do. 

My other thought is that those who are capable to train and handle studs are busy working or competing and aren't always interested in playing with the weekend warriors. Ultimately, those that handle horses well are seldom noticed because they've simply done right by the horse and nobody notices well mannered horses. 

Another thing to consider is that at smaller regional/weekend events, owners show their own and at the futurity level, where horses are fully trained for competition, horses are typically trained by high level professionals (instead of somebody who attended a clinic) and are almost always shown by a professional fitter or ridden by a professional, which has substantial experience in the ring. 

In my opinion, this issue rates up there with backyard breeders. There is no right answer and we can't just do away with all of them because they aren't all bad but those that are sure make it tough for those that aren't. I do know that there is no way that one will ever get bylaws passed in the equine world to prevent women from showing studs because there are enough good ones out there that shouldn't be punished for the actions of others. 

I'm of the opinion that 'confidence' and 'firmness' people keep talking about comes from skill and experience not gender.


----------



## bergere

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> True, but typically the stallion was poorly trained by the owner to begin with. It just seems to me that many women let their horses (or any animal) get away with more than a man will. Pretty much all of the present company excluded, based on previous posts and conversations.



Most of the women I personally know, are just like me. Their horse's are on their best behavior, they have manners and expected to behave at all times.

Specially my horse's, they know what will happen if they miss behave at all.
I'll just give them a "look" when they are thinking about it,,, and they give me the oopps look. LOL Am such a meany.

Walking with a cane, I can't be around animals with bad manners. 

Now I have, in the way past... had to board horses... OM Goosh... lots of owners wanting these big horses, that they were afraid of... which of course, many horses's decide they are boss and their owners end up getting hurt.

Working at Rent strings, then teaching... saw all kinds of people that said they could ride... and I learned to tell, when they hadn't a clue. sigh ~~
Working at those places, made me decide to work at private barns. Just do not have the temperament to deal with.... stupid people, that shouldn't be around horses, then others needed a lot of lessons to get a clue but not willing to listen.

Also won't ride in big groups... not worth it.


----------



## Bret4207

There's an old saw that goes something like, "All American men grow up believing they have an instinctive ability to shoot just as well as John Wayne." The idea is that people think because they watched a movie, or movies, that they know what they are doing. Maybe that translates into the type of people that think they are just born horsemen/women because they've watched so many training vids. I dunno. I do know there were "18 studs" type people around back in the day before DVD's, or even VHS or Beta, when Clinton Anderson was just a twinkle in his moms eye so to speak. It has to come from someplace.


----------



## wr

Bret4207 said:


> There's an old saw that goes something like, "All American men grow up believing they have an instinctive ability to shoot just as well as John Wayne." The idea is that people think because they watched a movie, or movies, that they know what they are doing. Maybe that translates into the type of people that think they are just born horsemen/women because they've watched so many training vids. I dunno. I do know there were "18 studs" type people around back in the day before DVD's, or even VHS or Beta, when Clinton Anderson was just a twinkle in his moms eye so to speak. It has to come from someplace.


I have a couple of good Indian friends that went to ag college quite a few years ago and apparently, the college archery team had been shelved due to lack of interest. 

Somebody got the bright idea that since Indians are skilled with a bow and arrow, they college needed to get an archery team together. Lesson learned: Indians are not naturals with a bow and arrow, archery skills are learned, not something one is born with and apparently, some Indians would starve to death if they had to rely on their archery skills for food :rotfl:


----------



## Otter

Bret4207 said:


> As far as the ladies with the stallions thing, IMO there are a lot of ladies out there who are still 13 on the inside and trying to create the dream they had of being just like Trixie Belden, Velvet Whatshername or whoever the hero of those girl/horse books was. I don't care where you look, be it "Snowy River", "Hil----" or the Hallmark Channel, there's always a stud horse that's the ultimate challenge and prize.


 Alec and The Black, Ken and Thunderhead, Steve and Flame, whats-his-name and the Silver Brumby ... I actually can't think of one with a young girl and a stallion. While I'm sure they're out there, the "boy trains wild stallion on his path to manhood" theme has been done flat to death.
Not that I think it really makes a difference 



Grey Mare said:


> Why is it so hard for a few of you to admit that not all *<hobbyists>* are intelligent and savvy enough to be working or training or be around stallions?


Fixed.



RamblinRoseRanc said:


> While I realize there are many talented, knowledgable *<hobbyists>* out there that can/do handle stallions successfully, there are as many, if not more, that can't.


Fixed 
And, it is regional. I lived for a short time in your county (not picking on your exact county, just stating my familiarity with that region  ) and there are a lot of folks around there cowboy/girling around who have no business being around a horse. As has been mentioned, there are more women than men involved in horses. So if, at a local show, there are 20 women and 10 guys, and 4 women and 2 guys are flaming trainwrecks, is it that women are worse then men or just that there are more of them there?



wr said:


> ... and there is a whole other group of old guys that feel that women should not handle studs or bulls because male animals become crazed and violent when 'they smell menstrual blood.'


WR, I will have to look it up later, but there were actually a couple of university studies done on that, oh, about 20 years or so ago. Said studies showed that oestrus scents are highly species specific and that a stallion is no more agitated by a woman mensing then they are by a ***** in heat or a man with a skinned knee.

BUT, testosterone is practically universal. An mature male smells like a mature male, and receives the response of a male who's territory/dominance is being infringed on when provoked.

Researchers tongue-in-cheek concluded that men shouldn't handle stallions because their testosterone could provoke and upset the animals :bash: ound:

What it all boils down to is some individuals, regardless of gender, have the skill to create and handle a well-mannered stud, and most folks don't and that line falls nowhere near gender lines, in spite of one individual's observation.


----------



## wr

Otter, I have read those studies as well but still maintain that well trained should trump those crazed frenzies. 

Ultimately, there are very few people that need/should be handling or training studs. Most that are being shown or ridden, don't need to be intact and would make much better geldings but then again, if people were more selective about what they bred, the numbers of studs would be reduced anyhow.


----------



## cwgrl23

About 5 years ago I ran into some of my folks' friends at a state horse fair. They were up there introducing their two studs to the area as they live a few hours from where the show was held. The show had different classes so you could show off what your stud could do. Some where open to any gender. Some breed specific. You get the idea. 

Anyway I tell you all of this to tell you this part. Our friends where not getting a lot of interest in their studs as they were the old fashioned QH type. The kind that could actually work cattle all day. In fact, one stud was missing a bit of hide from busting some brush to go after some reluctant cattle. When it was time for the Western Pleasure Stud division, the black stud was saddled up and walked over to the arena. While checking in, he was asked who would be riding the stud. He said she will be - pointing at his 10 yr old daughter. After much fuss and arguing and him signing additional waivers and getting the other participants ok, she was allowed to show the stud. While all this fuss was going on, she was riding him around the warm up area. At one time, the stud started to drop his business cause some mares went by. She smacked his hip and said put it away and he did!

So a blonde haird, green eyed 10 yr old girl on the back of a shiny jet black stud participated in Western Pleasure. Stud was only 7. She placed second due to an error in the pattern. Many where questioning if the daughter really rode him or if he was responding to the father's commands as he was required to be in the ring just in case. To prove the point, after the class was over, his daughter (who was mad at her riding being called into question) refused to leave the ring. Instead, she jumped of the stud and quickly striped the saddle and bridle off. No halter, no nothing, she grabbed a hunk of mane and swung on. She proceed to do a portion of the pattern again. Then just cause she is like her dad and feels anything worth doing is overdoing, put him through a few sliding stops all bare back. Flying lead changes the whole bit. Then she put the cherry on top. She rode the stud to the center of the ring and brought him to a stop. She then stood up on his back. You could hear all the air being sucked out of the arena when she did that. She then turned around and waved to the other side of the arena. She sat down - still backwards- and sent him off around the area with just voice commands. Once more to the center of the arena, she stopped him and crawled part way up his neck and swung under hanging under his neck. She then got down and picked up all four feet. She then had the stud bow just his head and the arena erupted. She then vaulted back on the stud and rode him back to the stall. He was booked for the rest of the season in less then an hour. The other stud after being ridden in just the warm up area by the other sister was booked by the end of the day. They no longer come to this show as they have made their name and people find them now.

I told that long story to show that with the proper training from day 1 for both horse and human. Studs can be easily managed in mixed company. That particular family rides all their horses for working cattle and checking fences. No free loaders at their place! I have personally helped them work cattle and seen the studs in action. Some amazing cow abilities there! At the end of a long day, the stud was brought in and showered off. Once free of mud and dry, he was lead over to the mare barn and did his other job. I know that blonde rode him every day during that breeding season. She even used him for barrel racing for a couple of years. He had the speed but not really the drive so she stayed with cutting. They worked hard on their training and their bloodlines. Calm easy going temperaments were required. Consistent bad temper and the animal was put down. They refused to make a problem for someone else. 

Sorry for the book but wanted people to know that there are studs out there that work for a living and can be handled by anyone experienced with horses.


----------



## SFM in KY

cwgrl23 said:


> Sorry for the book but wanted people to know that there are studs out there that work for a living and can be handled by anyone experienced with horses.


Very definitely. When I was first starting out with both the warmbloods and the ponies in the early 90s I had a lady that was training/showing two of my young stallions ... both 5 year olds at the time ... a warmblood and my foundation Connemara. They were hauled to the shows in a 2 horse side by side trailer and were routinely tied to the side of the trailer to be tacked up and/or waiting to be shown ... again side by side.

Pam used to laugh when she'd tell me about people asking if she had stallions that were standing and when they could see them. When she'd indicate them, tied to the trailer, she would see about half the people surreptitiously bend over to check that they were, indeed, both stallions!


----------



## cwgrl23

SFM in KY said:


> Very definitely. When I was first starting out with both the warmbloods and the ponies in the early 90s I had a lady that was training/showing two of my young stallions ... both 5 year olds at the time ... a warmblood and my foundation Connemara. They were hauled to the shows in a 2 horse side by side trailer and were routinely tied to the side of the trailer to be tacked up and/or waiting to be shown ... again side by side.
> 
> Pam used to laugh when she'd tell me about people asking if she had stallions that were standing and when they could see them. When she'd indicate them, tied to the trailer, she would see about half the people surreptitiously bend over to check that they were, indeed, both stallions!


It is so sad that people are surprised by well mannered stallions! Why would I or anyone risk money, time, and life and limb breeding to an ill mannered stallion?


----------



## Pat-wcWI

wr said:


> I also find that bottle fed calves tend to be a problem too but most are in the freezer long before people realize how dangerous they are.


I have never had to raise an orphan foal, but have raised hundreds of bottle dairy calves with no problem. I never made pets out of them and was only there to feed them. After they were weaned they went into their age groups, moved into other age groups and never remembered who fed them when they were babies.


----------



## SFM in KY

cwgrl23 said:


> It is so sad that people are surprised by well mannered stallions! Why would I or anyone risk money, time, and life and limb breeding to an ill mannered stallion?


I grew up with the only exposure to stallions being two range stallions owned by neighbors, never used for anything for breeding and at best, they were halter broke. Definitely not manageable by a person. This is why I was so absolutely amazed when I walked into the stabling for the government stud in Spain, with 200 stallions together in tie stalls.

But my first horse after returning to MT from Spain was a purebred Arab stallion purchased as a halter-broke 3 year old. I owned him for several years as a stallion and I could haul him loose in a stock trailer with my daughter's mare and round up the mare herd in the pasture and bring them to the corral with no issues at all. You never knew he was a stallion until I put the 'breeding halter' on him.


----------



## DamnearaFarm

Argh. Argh. ARGH!
Head. Explodes.

Stallions. We're not building things here. 

Sorry, pet peeve of mine.


----------



## wr

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> Argh. Argh. ARGH!
> Head. Explodes.
> 
> Stallions. We're not building things here.
> 
> Sorry, pet peeve of mine.


It's regional. The only people that use the term stallion up here are city folks and the big sign in front of the breeding station east of me but even those that work there refer to it as the a stud station. Sorry if it offends.


----------



## CraterCove

*From http://www.merriam-webster.com:
*

*
*

*1stud*

_noun_, _often attributive_ \&#712;st&#601;d\



*Definition of STUD*

1
_a_ : a group of animals and especially horses kept primarily for breeding 
_b_ : a place (as a farm) where a stud is kept 

2
 : studhorse; _broadly_ : a male animal kept for breeding 

3
_a_ : a young man : guy; _especially_ : one who is virile and promiscuous 
_b_ : a tough person  
_c_ : hunk 2 
â at stud  : for breeding as a stud <retired racehorses _at stud_> 




*Origin of STUD*

Middle English _stod,_ from Old English _st&#333;d;_ akin to Old Church Slavic _stado_ flock and probably to Old High German _st&#257;n_ to stand â more at standFirst Known Use: before 12th century


So:  lol but I understand, I have those too.


----------



## Irish Pixie

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> Argh. Argh. ARGH!
> Head. Explodes.
> 
> Stallions. We're not building things here.
> 
> Sorry, pet peeve of mine.


It annoys me too but technically "stud" is a place that houses stallions _and_ a stallion. I always say stallion tho. 

I will admit to being a wee bit on the odd side.


----------



## CraterCove

A thought though for the discussion: I wonder if gelding doesn't give people a certain false sense of security. Like you can see people that are given a false sense of security and safety by using safety gear. I'm a helmet proponent btw even if sometimes I choose not to use one. I just think that sometimes people think they are safe when certain criteria are met: I have a helmet on, or well it's a gelding so I don't have to worry. Or whatever their little voodoo 'I am safe if' thing might be.


----------



## wr

CraterCove said:


> A thought though for the discussion: I wonder if gelding doesn't give people a certain false sense of security. Like you can see people that are given a false sense of security and safety by using safety gear. I'm a helmet proponent btw even if sometimes I choose not to use one. I just think that sometimes people think they are safe when certain criteria are met: I have a helmet on, or well it's a gelding so I don't have to worry. Or whatever their little voodoo 'I am safe if' thing might be.


To a certain degree yes but in part, I feel we old timers may go along way to perpetuating some of that. If someone mentions they're looking for their first horse, we'll always suggest an older gelding and while we're suggesting, less potential for attitude, people often see gelding as being the holy grail of horses. We'll advise a new rider that they have to have boots and a helmet to prevent injuries, when the reality is that both will greatly reduce the chance of injuries.


----------



## jennigrey

A healthy dose of confidence - whether warranted or not - can help see you through as well. Anything that boosts your confidence is a good thing when you are dealing with horses. Over-confident is bad, of course. But if you're worried that your mare is going to act "mare-ish" around someone else's gelding on a trail ride, you're going to be more likely to have problems than someone who is blissfully unaware that such a thing can happen. And if you swing up into the saddle with misgivings that maybe with the wind blowing and it being October and all, maybe this isn't the day to be riding without a helmet... that right there should tell you to get off the horse and go helmet up.


----------



## Lisa in WA

I avoided mares like the plague for years and only had geldings, till my daughter chose a mustang mare as her pony club horse.
I've had three mares since then and never, ever had any "marish" behavior. I only have one now (Windsong) and she is one of the sweetist horses I've ever had. The only way we know she's in season is the ick on her back legs.


----------



## jennigrey

I love mares. I feel that mares, in general, have more character and spark than geldings. And that they have more heart and "try". This can, of course, work against a person, when that "try" is contrary to what you want to accomplish that day. :heh: But I don't notice anything that I would attribute to "mare-ish-ness". The sole exception is when I have my horses at the rented pasture down the road. The pasture shares a fenceline with someone else's pasture of horses. One of my mares is in LOVE with the boss mare in the other herd. Absolutely devoted. Moons around the fence, comes running when the other mare nickers for her, squats and pees. But as soon as I catch her up in the field it becomes a non-issue.

If I was doing a lot of logging, I might invest in stallions. But trying to bring a stallion makes you persona non grata in a lot of places. Heck, even our own wagon train disallows stallions. And dogs. And fireworks. And guns.


----------



## CraterCove

How can one have a proper wagon train without dogs and guns?


----------



## Lisa in WA

jennigrey said:


> I love mares. I feel that mares, in general, have more character and spark than geldings. And that they have more heart and "try". This can, of course, work against a person, when that "try" is contrary to what you want to accomplish that day. :heh: But I don't notice anything that I would attribute to "mare-ish-ness". The sole exception is when I have my horses at the rented pasture down the road. The pasture shares a fenceline with someone else's pasture of horses. One of my mares is in LOVE with the boss mare in the other herd. Absolutely devoted. Moons around the fence, comes running when the other mare nickers for her, squats and pees. But as soon as I catch her up in the field it becomes a non-issue.
> 
> If I was doing a lot of logging, I might invest in stallions. But trying to bring a stallion makes you persona non grata in a lot of places. Heck, even our own wagon train disallows stallions. And dogs. And fireworks. And guns.


Windsong certainly has spark and character. She is so comical and personable but so good-hearted and sweet at the same time. Not a sneaky or mean bone in her body.
But she's feisty too. I love that silly mare.


----------



## DamnearaFarm

wr said:


> It's regional. The only people that use the term stallion up here are city folks and the big sign in front of the breeding station east of me but even those that work there refer to it as the a stud station. Sorry if it offends.


 
I knooooooow  (that's me moaning in frustration, lol)

Sorta like DEworming. We're not givin' them worms, fer Pete's sake!

Everytime someone says I wormed my horse I want to ask 'em why in the heck would they want to do THAT? lol


----------



## DamnearaFarm

jennigrey said:


> I love mares. I feel that mares, in general, have more character and spark than geldings. And that they have more heart and "try". This can, of course, work against a person, when that "try" is contrary to what you want to accomplish that day. :heh: But I don't notice anything that I would attribute to "mare-ish-ness". The sole exception is when I have my horses at the rented pasture down the road. The pasture shares a fenceline with someone else's pasture of horses. One of my mares is in LOVE with the boss mare in the other herd. Absolutely devoted. Moons around the fence, comes running when the other mare nickers for her, squats and pees. But as soon as I catch her up in the field it becomes a non-issue.
> 
> If I was doing a lot of logging, I might invest in stallions. But trying to bring a stallion makes you persona non grata in a lot of places. Heck, even our own wagon train disallows stallions. And dogs. And fireworks. And guns.


 
A mare fan here, too.


----------



## wr

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> I knooooooow  (that's me moaning in frustration, lol)
> 
> Sorta like DEworming. We're not givin' them worms, fer Pete's sake!
> 
> Everytime someone says I wormed my horse I want to ask 'em why in the heck would they want to do THAT? lol


Up here, we deworm horses but we unthaw meat from the freezer, wear bare feet and my grandparents got their hairs cut.


----------



## Bret4207

jennigrey said:


> If I was doing a lot of logging, I might invest in stallions.


 If you were doing a lot of logging you'd invest in good geldings and mares. As cranky as a mare can get, and some of mine DO get cranky, a stud horse can get plain stupid way too quick from the wiff of a mare 2 miles up wind. Some people can get a lot out of a stud horse, IME those people are few and far between, my hat is off to them.


----------



## SFM in KY

Bret4207 said:


> If you were doing a lot of logging you'd invest in good geldings and mares. As cranky as a mare can get, and some of mine DO get cranky, a stud horse can get plain stupid way too quick from the wiff of a mare 2 miles up wind. Some people can get a lot out of a stud horse, IME those people are few and far between, my hat is off to them.


In the early 90s I stood a Shire stallion for the owner. He was the draft horse manager for the Padlock Ranch in MT/WY and was allowed to keep several draft horses of his own. His stallion was out with a small band of mares in the spring, to pasture breed and was worked all winter, with a mare as his team mate, feeding cattle and putting out supplements. You would absolutely never know that was a stallion by his attitude.


----------



## Bret4207

We had a guy breeding Black Clydes near me. His stud horse worked every single day and he had a fine attitude because of it. That doesn't mean he would have been a good horse to log with. If you're in something for the money you need a consistent worker that allows you to do something else other than worry about behavior issues. That's why I say you'd be looking at geldings and mares. And I should have said GOOD mares because there are a good percentage of mares that get pretty spoiled acting when in heat.


----------



## wr

Bret4207, in my opinion, a well trained horse is mannered while working, no matter what gender. My own horse is a gelding but the test pilot rode a mare for many years and more than once or twice, I had guys complain because the mare was cycling and causing their geldings to misbehave. Not one of those that complained had a response when I asked them why their geldings weren't better trained. 

Any stallion I've trained or ridden have always been well trained and I've had no problems riding them with mares and as a matter of fact, I've gathered broodmares with one and he never twitched, fidgeted or acted out, as expected. 

In the case of logging or extra heavy work, some people prefer stallions because of the additional muscle means additional power.


----------



## DamnearaFarm

wr said:


> Up here, we deworm horses but we unthaw meat from the freezer, wear bare feet and my grandparents got their hairs cut.


lol!


----------



## DamnearaFarm

wr said:


> Bret4207, in my opinion, a well trained horse is mannered while working, no matter what gender. My own horse is a gelding but the test pilot rode a mare for many years and more than once or twice, I had guys complain because the mare was cycling and causing their geldings to misbehave. Not one of those that complained had a response when I asked them why their geldings weren't better trained.
> 
> Any stallion I've trained or ridden have always been well trained and I've had no problems riding them with mares and as a matter of fact, I've gathered broodmares with one and he never twitched, fidgeted or acted out, as expected.
> 
> In the case of logging or extra heavy work, some people prefer stallions because of the additional muscle means additional power.


 
We had a highly trained, formerly padded (grrrrrrr!) TWH show mare. Absolutely beautiful horse and extremely well mannered. Never saw anything out of her when she was cycling. Unless she was in the show ring.  She'd break gait and flirt shamelessly with any male horse she saw. Luckily we're not really show people and just play around occasionally at local shows or else it would have been really irritating. Instead it was hilarious because this mare was SUCH a lady..never saw her roll, even when wet after a bath and her version of bucking and kicking up her heels was to stomp her back feet, swing her butt around and call out. She really thought she was givin' it heck.....lol


----------



## CraterCove

You know what /I/ was super embarrassed by when I was a teen? My mom's gelding acting like a mare in heat on the trail. Oh boy, very confusing/frustrating/embarrassing for someone just learning those ropes for themselves.

So does all that 'mare-ish' behavior disappear if they are bred? Maybe, if you really wanted shows and had a little harlot (lol) for a mare that would be the solution, get her points while she's bred!


----------



## jennigrey

wr said:


> In the case of logging or extra heavy work, some people prefer stallions because of the additional muscle means additional power.


Not only that, but a stallion's ego and drive, if properly trained and channeled, will result in more determination and drive in work than an equally-muscled gelding. It's the "heart"... the impossible-to-quantify and impossible-to-instill quality that a horse either has or doesn't have. Good stallions will get more done than good geldings. You just have to have a close working relationship and be very consistent. No, it's not easy. My mares aren't easy. But they're worth it.


----------



## Bret4207

wr said:


> Bret4207, in my opinion, a well trained horse is mannered while working, no matter what gender. My own horse is a gelding but the test pilot rode a mare for many years and more than once or twice, I had guys complain because the mare was cycling and causing their geldings to misbehave. Not one of those that complained had a response when I asked them why their geldings weren't better trained.
> 
> Any stallion I've trained or ridden have always been well trained and I've had no problems riding them with mares and as a matter of fact, I've gathered broodmares with one and he never twitched, fidgeted or acted out, as expected.
> 
> In the case of logging or extra heavy work, some people prefer stallions because of the additional muscle means additional power.



Well sir, the problem is not everyone is as good at training their animals as they'd like. The horse loggers I've known were not horse trainers. They were loggers that used horses. I'd put money down that 95% of the horse loggers today are pretty much loggers first and foremost and that they buy "trained" horses, geldings and mares almost exclusively. 

Finding out that your stud horse isn't a well trained as you thought when he's dragging a thousand feet of log down a hill on ice isn't going to end well. As I've said before, there are people that can handle studs, but they aren't at all common, certainly not as common as some folks think.


----------



## cedarcreekranch

My old walker gelding was an orphan - he's as safe and kind a horse you'd ever want around you. Best thing about him is worming him - he'll suck it right out of the tube. ;-) I also have a mini mare we raised from 2 weeks after her mama died - again, sweet, sane, safe and really a nice little girl. She's 4 now and no trouble at all. It's all in how they learn to respect people, no matter if orphans or not. Their mamas correct them and so should their 'people' mamas.


----------

