# Heritage Pigs Declared Invasive Species by Michigan DNR



## Jeremiahc (Jul 6, 2011)

I don't have any pigs but thought you all might want to check this out. Michigan DNR has declared many heritage pigs an invasive species. And they must be destroyed by April 1st without compensation. Check out Mark's videos. 

Video 1:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBdU1_Y82HY&feature=related[/ame]


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## DarleneJ (Jan 29, 2012)

We listened to/watched this man's video. Shortly after, my husband asked me to find out the Muslim population of Michigan.

What I found was very interesting.

&#8220;Michigan: the Islamic capital of the US
By Sher Zieve

As of 2005, Michigan held the largest and still growing Muslim population in the United States and the second largest Arab population outside of the Middle East&#8230;&#8221;

You can read the whole article here:

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/zieve/070111

Perhaps someone is doing someone else a favor&#8230; That stinks.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Yes, someone is doing someone a favor. Just not the way you are telling it.
Game ranches have been serving the rich with a way to hunt deer and insure sucess. They let a buck out of the pen and when it comes to the bait pile, the "hunter" shoots. People pay from a couple thousand on up to many thousands. As a result, Michigan has a couple hundred farms raising deer for these hunt clubs. 

But, the average guy can't afford such hunts. A new business of shooting Wild Boar sprung up. Guys went down south and brought up Wild Boar to be hunted at hunt clubs. A guy that can't afford a few grand for a deer, can afford $600 to shoot a Wild Boar. Thet got popular and many guys started importing Wild Boar and raising them for the Hunt Clubs. 

Trouble started a few years ago, when a few from every hunt club escaped and a lot from a few hog Ranches escaped. One farmer lost 250 Wild Hogs in a month. They breed fast and are hard to catch. Some carry psudorabies, a pig disease eliminated in commercial pigs years ago.

Well, the wild Hogs are spreading and doing damage to woodlands, crops and lawns. Hunters are encouraged to shoot on sight. Land owners are asked to shoot on sight. But these wary beasts are hard to find.

DNR's ban is on three basic types of Wild Hogs. If those are the heritage you cling to, too bad. Michigan Pork farmers are growing quality hogs and they aren't about to let some novelty sport wreck their business. 

Muslum population centered around Dearborn hasn't effected pork sales, but the value of goats and lamb seems to be increasing.


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## Jeremiahc (Jul 6, 2011)

haypoint said:


> DNR's ban is on three basic types of Wild Hogs. If those are the heritage you cling to, too bad. Michigan Pork farmers are growing quality hogs and they aren't about to let some novelty sport wreck their business.


There were actually about three pages of breeds that were banned. It's a shame THIS responsible pork farmer is being forced out of business because of the irresponsibility of others. Scary the DNR can come in and change some definitions to suit their needs. His pigs are not considered livestock so he will not be compensated at all...

Part 2:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOBUKrMXfGw&feature=related[/ame]

Part 3: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=kwD4vZmUAUQ&feature=endscreen


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## Kazahleenah (Nov 3, 2004)

Jeremiahc said:


> There were actually about three pages of breeds that were banned. It's a shame THIS responsible pork farmer is being forced out of business because of the irresponsibility of others. Scary the DNR can come in and change some definitions to suit their needs. His pigs are not considered livestock so he will not be compensated at all...
> 
> Part 2:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOBUKrMXfGw&feature=related
> ...



Can you please provide a link to "the 3 pages of breeds listed?
Youtube videos generally are not what I consider a 'reliable' source.
I am curious, as I live in Michigan and want to raise Herford Hogs (a heritage breed)


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## Kazahleenah (Nov 3, 2004)

All I can find on the MichiganDNR site is



> "The DNR has declared Sus scrofa, one species of swine, an invasive species in Michigan. As such, possession of this species of swine is now prohibited in Michigan. This was a move by the Michigan DNR to join other states in the battle against feral swine, as well as to align with the National Invasive Species Laboratory's stance on feral swine. Hunting and breeding facilities in possession of Sus scrofa after April 1, 2012, will face legal action by the state. See more information on the order listing feral swine as an invasive species."





> Oct. 10, 2011
> 
> A Department of Natural Resources director's order listing sporting swine as an invasive species took effect over the weekend on Oct. 8, making it illegal to possess the animals in Michigan.
> 
> ...


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Kazahleenah said:


> Can you please provide a link to "the 3 pages of breeds listed?
> Youtube videos generally are not what I consider a 'reliable' source.
> I am curious, as I live in Michigan and want to raise Herford Hogs (a heritage breed)


The ban is NOT for Heritage breed, rather specific species of pigs, _Sus scrofa_. The pig farmer on the video has that species, so to stay in business he needs to switch species of pigs, Sus domestica which encompasses the typical breeds of pigs virtually everyone rasies for meat.

Jim


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## Kazahleenah (Nov 3, 2004)

Lazy J said:


> The ban is NOT for Heritage breed, rather specific species of pigs, _Sus scrofa_. The pig farmer on the video has that species, so to stay in business he needs to switch species of pigs, Sus domestica which encompasses the typical breeds of pigs virtually everyone rasies for meat.
> 
> Jim


So, is there a list of breeds? DNA test? or do they just decide on a case by case basis what breeds are banned?


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

Kazahleenah said:


> So, is there a list of breeds? DNA test? or do they just decide on a case by case basis what breeds are banned?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_boar


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Sounds like a scary slope, would like to see some kind of official list. Feral hogs are a growing problem but the wild hogs I see here have a domestic back ground. Not for sure if this law will help or just be another law to trap some body in.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Many states have the same type of law.
It is to stop the wild hogs from multiplying and destroying crops, animals, and endangering people. Domestic hogs are not in the group. Feral hogs are.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

pancho said:


> Many states have the same type of law.
> It is to stop the wild hogs from multiplying and destroying crops, animals, and endangering people. Domestic hogs are not in the group. Feral hogs are.


Add to that swine diseases.
Taken years to bring some swine diseases under control.
The wild hog does pose a problem for the domestic pigs and the farmer raising them with different swine diseases.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

IMHO it seems like it'd be easier to declare a ban on loose hogs. 

whatever the loose hogs might be.

Besides, the "domesticated" pig is sus scrofa domestica - shortened to sus domestica.


AND if I decide I don't like yer piggers and whatever smell I think they have? 

Betcha I'll rat you out to the authorities as I'll bet there's gonna be a bonus/reward for said illegal hogs. 

You got curlie-tailed, straight eared hogs or straight-tailed, floppy eared hogs? Or any combo of the two? And I don't like 'em? Betcha I'll rat you out. This could be worth $$ to me to turn you in...



AND quite a lot of the feral hogs are resistant to diseases. The hot-house piggers can croak if you sneeze in there...


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

... and and? Feral pigs are free food for the less fortunate... 

sakes.

Next thing they'll outlaw everything but battery chickens and eggs from same.

What about feral cats? They cause all MANNER of issues. Outlaw them too...

and I'm not too overly fond of miniature horses or pet rats. Let's do away with them as well.

:umno:


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## pointer_hunter (May 8, 2004)

"The order lists wild or feral boar/swine/hog, Old World swine, razorback, Eurasian wild boar and Russian wild boar as invasive species."

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10371_10402-248245--,00.html

I can't seem to find their definition of Old World Swine anywhere though.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wild hogs have almost destroyed a military cemetery near where I live.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

I understand what you are saying, Pancho, but wild anything can tear up stuff. A group of groundhogs will cause LOTS of problems. 

I still think Michiganders are missing the big picture. From the Michigan Traffic site: Michigan had 55,867 reported motor vehicle-deer crashes during 2010. 1,433 people were injured and 11
people were killed as a result of those collisions. eight of the 11 people killed were motorcycle drivers, two
were passenger car drivers and one was a van driver. Of the 56,101 vehicles involved, 40,136 (71.5%) were
passenger cars, 10,547 (18.8%) were pickups, and 3,137 (5.6%) were minivans, vans, and motorhomes. All
other vehicle types (including motorcycle, snowmobile, ORV/ATV, large truck, moped) totaled 2,281 (4.1%).
Motor vehicle-deer crashes occurred most often in Michiganâs heavily populated southern counties; Kent
County had the highest number with 1,976 such crashes in 2010.

Now, from the Michigan DNR site concerning wild hogs: Thirty years ago, there were no feral swine sightings reported in Michigan. By the end of 2011, more than 340 feral swine had been spotted in 72 of Michigan's 83 counties, and 286 have been reported killed. 

Oooh. And bears? Them big things that have the big, nasty teeth and claws? From the DNR: Approximately 15000 - 19000 black bears (including cubs) roam the hardwood and conifer forests of northern Michigan.

I'm not saying it's not a problem. It IS a growing problem all over the United States. But to blame and/or destroy a farmer's livelihood with no compensation because of feral hogs? Is akin to destroying a breeder's prized Abyssinian cats because feral cats eat birds. Does not compute.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Gailann Schrader said:


> I understand what you are saying, Pancho, but wild anything can tear up stuff. A group of groundhogs will cause LOTS of problems.


I think you might have a different idea of what destroy means when it comes to wild hogs.
In the military cemetary headstones and monuments have been turned over, graves dug up, and acres of lawn looks like a bomb field with large craters that a pickup can't drive across.

comparing the damage done by a groundhog to a wild hog is like comparing the damage done by a hamster to that done by a rhino.


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## cooper101 (Sep 13, 2010)

Not solely blaming that farmer, but he's part of the problem. Maybe even one of the sources of it. Hard to pin ground-hog damage on any one individual. Is one farmer's livelihood worth the tax money it's going to cost to (maybe) eliminate them or the damage done to surrounding areas that private landowners will have to pay?

It's the same story over and over. We toy with things that we think we can control. We can't control it, it gets out of hand. Are there any stories of non-indigenous species entering an area that ended well?


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

No, I'm not actually trying to compare them as closely as what it seemed - my point that I was trying to make is that we've had indigenous and non- creating havoc for as long as we've been here. 

These pigs? Can we be sure where they came from? This particular farmer keeps his secured. 

Imho, it's like wildfires that burn thousands of acres. Traced back to some single source. Someone or somehow something allowed these animals to get loose. Now we have to control and reduce the feral population. 

Broadly eradicating the controlled population isn't going to change the established feral population. Do you have your Hamps and Large Blacks secured? They can just as easily breed with the feral population. The legislation is to eradicate all on-the-family-farm hogs and only have CAFOs in Michigan.

Going by phenotype is a poor way to choose - especially when it destroys someone's livelihood. The criteria is *one* of the following: straight or curly tail and floppy or straight ears. What pig doesn't have those?

Again, I'm not saying it's not a problem. And a growing one. But to walk onto your farm or smallholding, take a look at your animals (including ALL Old-World swine. i.e., everything but CAFO hogs) and determine they are to be shot on sight as they are considered feral? Ridiculous.

Seems that as of 3/13/2012 there's an injunction against this as being "too vague to enforce." Uh, yeah.


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## DarleneJ (Jan 29, 2012)

So if this man's pigs wander off his property anyone can shoot them. Since it's not a disease issue (like mad cow) then leave him alone.

We pastured our pigs inside electric fencing. They were content, friendly and lean because they had space to do what came naturally to them. Personally, I wouldn't even consider confinment for pigs, but that's my choice. I don't force anyone else to be of the same opinion.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Lets use a little common sense.
If the man's hogs look and act like feral hogs he is doing something wrong. If they are contained on his land and raised and fed right they will not look like feral hogs. If his do he doesn't care for his hogs.
If the people who are supposed to enforce the laws against feral hogs do not know the difference in domestic hogs and feral hogs they need to find another person for the job.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

This guy's hogs will always be feral-looking hogs. Because they are feral-based. You can't make an Arabian horse look like a Shetland pony (well, ok, in the winter and if they're stocky, maybe)...

This guy raises an Old World-style hog for processing. 

Like the Mangalistas - they are outlawed on April 1 and subject to destroy and not compensate in Michigan. And more than likely? Kunekunes. And American Guinea Hogs. ANYTHING that doesn't look like a Blue-Butt or similar (aka CAFO hog) will be subject to this legislation. On sight (phenotype) only. Not genotype (genetically)... And ANY hybrid (i.e., Russian crossed with a Hampshire) especially if they exhibit one characteristic of "feral" hogs... Gloucestershire Old Spots if they don't "look" right... Iberians, etc. It depends on who's looking at them. Curly or straight tail? Erect or flopped ears? Not in a CAFO? Destroy.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

registered ossabaws would be gone


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

Gailann Schrader said:


> This guy's hogs will always be feral-looking hogs. Because they are feral-based. You can't make an Arabian horse look like a Shetland pony (well, ok, in the winter and if they're stocky, maybe)...
> 
> This guy raises an Old World-style hog for processing.
> 
> Like the Mangalistas - they are outlawed on April 1 and subject to destroy and not compensate in Michigan. And more than likely? Kunekunes. And American Guinea Hogs. ANYTHING that doesn't look like a Blue-Butt or similar (aka CAFO hog) will be subject to this legislation. On sight (phenotype) only. Not genotype (genetically)... And ANY hybrid (i.e., Russian crossed with a Hampshire) especially if they exhibit one characteristic of "feral" hogs... Gloucestershire Old Spots if they don't "look" right... Iberians, etc. It depends on who's looking at them. Curly or straight tail? Erect or flopped ears? Not in a CAFO? Destroy.


Links please.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

here is the link to the Michigan DNR's site:

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12145_55230---,00.html

oh, and last YEAR? They killed like 42? 60? "feral" hogs. If you look at the report, the numbers are growing. Not like Texas of course, but growing.

There were sightings of 62 feral hogs last year and total kills or found deads of 43. Plus then the disclaimers at the bottom of the report... 

Besides, my main complaint/report/observation is that while feral hogs may be and are an up-and-coming issue? CONFINED hogs of whatever breed are being targeted. Only CAFO hogs will be allowed. Any other hogs on anyone's farm that show ANY "feral" breed characteristics will not be allowed to live. Destroyed with no compensation.

Feral hogs should be limited/controlled. But this is a ham-handed piece of legislation...


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## Beowulf (Aug 27, 2010)

Gailann Schrader said:


> here is the link to the Michigan DNR's site:
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12145_55230---,00.html
> 
> ...


No it isn't.

It's a ham-handed piece of bureaucratic ruling. This was not legislated.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

CONFINED hogs of whatever breed are being targeted. Not true.

Only CAFO hogs will be allowed. Not True.

Any other hogs on anyone's farm that show ANY "feral" breed characteristics will not be allowed to live. Not true.

Destroyed with no compensation. If you have wild Pigs or what look like Wild Pigs, you just lost your biggest byer, Hunt Clubs and have known for awhile that this was going to happen. If you failed to market them, the tax payer shouldn't be on the hook for your failure to act. Bad enough that tax payer's dollars will need to be used o control this invasive and evasive specis.

These pigs got loose because of the owner's lack of understanding that these are WILD Hogs. I'd like to see every breeder of Wild Hogs fined to cover the damage the escapees do. Nearly every place that was raising them has had some "escape". 

Has everyone forgotten about that nut case in Ohio with the Lions and tigers, etc.? What these folks with the Wild Hogs is like that, except the pigs are multiplying and are harder to locate and hunt down.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> registered ossabaws would be gone


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossabaw_Island_Hog

OK, they are ferel hogs. I am in agreement that Michigan doesn't want them. Look like a wild hog, walk like a wild hog, smell like a wild hog, act like a wild hog, it is a wild hog. Bang, bang good bye,


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

I don't think any domestic animals should be allowed to run feral and at large. Cats, hogs, dogs, horses, goats, anything. If they are non-native and we bred or introduced them, then we need to be taking personal responsibility if they get loose and cause a problem.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

âNo, I'm not actually trying to compare them as closely as what it seemed - my point that I was trying to make is that we've had indigenous and non- creating havoc for as long as we've been here. â 
Yup and weâve been managing livestock and wild animals for a while, too. While nothing is ever perfect, I think we have made a few positive changes.

âThese pigs? Can we be sure where they came from? This particular farmer keeps his secured. â
Are you sure? Most folks that have tried to confine Wild Hogs that they imported, have failed.

âImho, it's like wildfires that burn thousands of acres. Traced back to some single source. Someone or somehow something allowed these animals to get loose. Now we have to control and reduce the feral population.â
More like 200 little wildfires. Nearly everyone raising Wild Hogs in Michigan had no idea how hard it is to confine them. Since pigs do not fly, how do you explain the fact that Wild hogs are suddenly all over the state? Controlling the feral hogs is nearly impossible. 

âBroadly eradicating the controlled population isn't going to change the established feral population. Do you have your Hamps and Large Blacks secured? They can just as easily breed with the feral population. The legislation is to eradicate all on-the-family-farm hogs and only have CAFOs in Michigan.â
Trying to control the feral hogs while letting 200 farms to continue to raise Wild Hogs is plain stupidity, since they have shown that they cannot be confined. If your domestic hogs breed with Wild Hogs, their offspring are Wild Hogs. Comingling your domestic hogs with Wild Hogs places your hogs in danger of contracting disease. Then the rest of Michiganâs hog farmers are at risk of picking up those diseases from your hogs.

âGoing by phenotype is a poor way to choose - especially when it destroys someone's livelihood. The criteria is *one* of the following: straight or curly tail and floppy or straight ears. What pig doesn't have those?â
MDNR is going to have a set of photos and a list of criteria, published soon. I saw it displayed last week, but canât find it now. I think it will be very detailed. Perhaps it has been pulled for a more detailed list?

âAgain, I'm not saying it's not a problem. And a growing one. But to walk onto your farm or smallholding, take a look at your animals (including ALL Old-World swine. i.e., everything but CAFO hogs) and determine they are to be shot on sight as they are considered feral? Ridiculous.â

For you to say that is not only ridiculous but causing unnecessary alarm.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

Gailann Schrader said:


> here is the link to the Michigan DNR's site:
> 
> DNR - Feral Swine
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link. There does seem to be a big problem with Feral hogs in that state. We did have a small problem with them in my county for awhile. However they seem to have disappeared.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

haypoint said:


> Ossabaw Island Hog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> OK, they are ferel hogs. I am in agreement that Michigan doesn't want them. Look like a wild hog, walk like a wild hog, smell like a wild hog, act like a wild hog, it is a wild hog. Bang, bang good bye,


and yet I am able to keep them confined. 
and they come from domesticated stock brought over. that is why they are in many living history parks.
Mount Vernon Colonial Williamsburg to just name two.


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## WildernesFamily (Mar 11, 2006)

haypoint said:


> Ossabaw Island Hog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> OK, they are ferel hogs. I am in agreement that Michigan doesn't want them. Look like a wild hog, walk like a wild hog, smell like a wild hog, act like a wild hog, it is a wild hog. Bang, bang good bye,


And yet we're able to keep our two sows confined as well. And they come to us for scratches and attention.

Wild hog. Psh.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

...don't move to Michigan...

...besides, Mount Vernon doesn't count (bet Mt. Vernon's glad they aren't in Michigan). Mt. Vernon's just some mythical place on the outskirts of the USA... Doesn't have anything to do with the USA. NIMBY. *shrug*

Rare breeds don't matter. If we kill them all, then we don't have to worry about them going extinct. Preemptive strike, I say... 

Oh. Wait. 

*shrug* We can just freeze the meat and enjoy it until it's gone... Genetic pool be ----ed. It's just a hog. On YOUR property... FENCED. *shrug*


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Come on down here and try to scratch the hogs running around destroying things.
Let me know before so I can get some pics.
Just don't expect me to call the ambulance.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Barrington Living History TX 

Historic Brattonsville SC

Conner Prairie History IN

The Accokeek Foundation&#8217;s National Colonial Farm MD

The Claude Moore Colonial Farm VA

just a few more that have and consider ossabaws important and containable.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

pancho said:


> Come on down here and try to scratch the hogs running around destroying things.
> Let me know before so I can get some pics.
> Just don't expect me to call the ambulance.


that is the difference between farm raised and wild raised. a farm raised, handled swine even if considered wild looking can be a contained meat pig.

and pink pigs can go wild too so lets out law them too.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

don't wanna *catch* 'em. Necessarily. I'm pretty skilled with a rifle, actually... 

Wanna get a mobile processing plant, set up shop near the damage, kill 'em, process and distribute the meat to needy's and I want the govt. to underwrite it.

Get 5 or 6 groups of us doing that all over the problem areas? We'll clear most of them out (or at least to tolerable numbers), feed the needy (or zoo animals or compost the buggers) and everyone wins.

And leave the farmed animals alone - but keep inventory on them - especially the larger "hunt" farms. Require monitors on outside of fences. Fine those that have escapees. Even though I'm in Indiana, I would be willing to supply an inventory for risky/questionable species. 

Easier and more diplomatic than turning neighbor against neighbor for bounty rewards/paybacks...


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Gailann Schrader said:


> don't wanna *catch* 'em. Necessarily. I'm pretty skilled with a rifle, actually...
> 
> Wanna get a mobile processing plant, set up shop near the damage, kill 'em, process and distribute the meat to needy's and I want the govt. to underwrite it.
> 
> ...


Not as easy as it sounds. Pigs are much smarter than deer and have better eyesight and sense of smell.
Most hunting leases ask their members to kill every hog on sight. They destroy food plots, compete with deer for food, and kill and eat fawns.
They multiply quickly. If hunted they stay hid during the day and only come out at night. When you hunt them you need to make a killing shot or you may become the hunted.
People around here hunt and trap them as much as possible but they multiply faster.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Gailann Schrader said:


> don't wanna *catch* 'em. Necessarily. I'm pretty skilled with a rifle, actually...
> 
> Wanna get a mobile processing plant, set up shop near the damage, kill 'em, process and distribute the meat to needy's and I want the govt. to underwrite it.
> 
> Get 5 or 6 groups of us doing that all over the problem areas? We'll clear most of them out (or at least to tolerable numbers), feed the needy (or zoo animals or compost the buggers) and everyone wins.


Laughable plan. The first time I hunted wild hogs was in south Texas. Friends and I paid a place that had leased a ranch for a hunt club. We got a guide, the hunt club members were on their own. The first morning drive in the dark was over an hour to the other side of the ranch. We got in the pasture and as the sun came up there were sounders (like that?) of black hogs all over the brushy pasture. We each had our huge boars killed in a few hours, but saw hundreds of others before that. The guide said the pasture was about shot out, they were about to open the next one for hunting. These were around 100,000 acres. Between us and the members, maybe 40 hogs were taken that day. We saw litters in groups of 2-4 sows with 20-30 pigs, we saw big boars, sows, mediums, it was a plague.

I've hunted them other times in far north Texas since they have spread. One guy welcomed us to his farm. His wheat was mowed flat and rooted when it should be in the boot stage. We spotlighted them all night and they scattered with the first shot, then you had to find another bunch later. Meanwhile, dozens were getting away. We shot a bunch for him but did not help his problem overall.

youtube for helicopter hog hunts. They are effective, but you can sometimes see the great numbers making their escape off to the sides, too. 

ID has two places where people brought in wild Russians to hunt, and of course some escaped. Now they are trying to see if they can stop them before they take over here and we get added to the list of states with hog problems.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

pancho said:


> Not as easy as it sounds. Pigs are much smarter than deer and have better eyesight and sense of smell.
> Most hunting leases ask their members to kill every hog on sight. They destroy food plots, compete with deer for food, and kill and eat fawns.
> They multiply quickly. If hunted they stay hid during the day and only come out at night. When you hunt them you need to make a killing shot or you may become the hunted.
> People around here hunt and trap them as much as possible but they multiply faster.


While working as Citrus inspector in the State of Florida there were quit a few wild hogs that would feed on the Citrus that had fallen on the ground. The grove owners kept traps out most of the year. They did trap enough that they weren't a problem. Two stores in the area sold wild hog meat and alligator meat.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

...so, not trying to be argumentative. However. What's your plan to eradicate the feral hogs?

Kill all the captive ones?

How does that kill all the feral ones? Or at least get the infestation down to a reasonable level? We were smart enough to kill millions and millions of buffalo. We were smart enough to kill millions of rats. And smallpox. And all sort of other things.

Seems to me that saying it's a problem and saying hunts won't work is part of the problem. I know they scatter. Funneled into an area? Maybe not so much. Larger traps? Contained and then shot from the pen? Maybe not so easily scattered.

With deer? It was found some of the problem is this: "We each had our huge boars killed in a few hours" but the does/sows are left as they aren't trophy animals. I'm not knocking your hunt at all. What I'm saying is this: One buck breeds a lot of does. Lots of does make fawns. Kill the does. Slow the process. 

I am still asking the question: If we kill all the captive animals? How does that stop the ferals (all 300+ or so of them) from continuing to breed? 

If I want to stop my whatevers from breeding? I kill the females 10:1. I'm not saying it's easy or anything such as that. 

I'm saying an EASIER solution to killing all the legals is to stop the illegals. While the "illegals" are being slaughtered ON FAMILY FARMS? The ferals are still breeding. They have their own stock to breed to. 

I know I live in Indiana. I know I don't live with this issue every day. But dedicated trapping and killing of the ferals seems a bit more thought out than banning and killing non CAFOs. The ferals will be still there.

Here in Indiana, we used to have a bounty on heads/tails/feet/whatever of certain species. Almost wiped out certain species. Certainly brought them under control. Why not a $5 bounty for each head/tail of these ferals or what look like ferals? Folks that grow and breed ferals would have to protect them with better fences because times are tough. Money isn't easy to get. I reckon there'd be a few folks interested in that plan... Has it been tried? Dunno. 

Pigs are smart. I'd like to think we are smarter.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

...besides, who in their right mind would want to be THAT person to go onto a family farm and sign the slaughter and do not compensate order? 

Know any Repo guys? Ask them how comfy their lives are. And that's just taking vehicles. Imagine someone coming onto your farm and slaughtering your livestock while you stand there, watching helplessly.

How much is Michigan dedicating to this? Maybe a million dollars? *doing some quick math*...

$5 bounty into $1,000,000 is? 200,000 animals and they don't have to lift a finger except to inspect and write out a check. Does Michigan have deer-check stations? Indiana does. Why not sub-pay those places $5 for every head/tail they receive as well. Still 100,000 animals. Still Michigan comes out ahead and their grief/problem is minimal. I don't think there are 100,000 ferals in MICHIGAN. Some folks raising ferals might send in their heads/tails. Michigan still wins. Less loose stock.

Texas. $5 bounty, $1 (more pigs, lotsa heads) to the check stations for each one. Better out-of-pocket to Texas. $5mil. = 833,333 repeating hogs gone if they pay out $5mil. The insurance companies would prolly buy into that plan, hands down. 

Some entrepeneur will figure out what to do with the skulls and teeth. Dry and grind for dog fud. Still a better option and safer for everyone. 

Believe me, I'd rather face an irritated group of hogs than a group of angry folks while I'm standing on the farm in their feedlot killing their hogs.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

We were looking for trophy boars, and found them. The hunt club members all shot eaters. On later hunts, we shot the sows and young for eating.

A deer has one or sometimes two fawns once a year. A sow has maybe 8-12 pigs, once and maybe twice a year. Those gilts can breed at 6-8 months of age. So if a sow had 12 gilts in a year and they bred at 6 months, they could either have or be carrying 144 more pigs by the end of that year. 

That means any escapees could turn from one into 100 very quickly.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Gailann Schrader said:


> ...so, not trying to be argumentative. However. What's your plan to eradicate the feral hogs?
> 
> Kill all the captive ones?
> 
> ...


Where I live they shoot everything on 4 feet when it comes to wild hogs. Age, size, sex, nothing matters. They kill all they see.
Some farmers will pay bounty for them and you can keep the meat.
Wild hogs do not have a home range. They go anywhere there is food.
When it floods around here it drives them into other areas. If they like it there they stay. If not they travel. If you hunt them in one area they will move miles away to another area.

Buffalo were easy to kill. That is why they were nearly killed out. Hogs aren't easy to find and harder to kill. Small caliber bullets will actually not penetrate some wild hogs.

As long as there are captive wild boars there will be some that escape.
What sort of enclosure do you suggest people who raise them should have?


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

The first hogs in this country were released by the Spaniards when they first landed here. Makes sense, they bred and multiplied then just as they do now and were easy food sources. 

I find it interesting that 20 plus years ago, Michigan was a go to destination to shoot a Russian Boar. And those in the pics and vids I saw were as close to pure as you could get. 

They were on preserves if you will and have long been called the poor man's grizzly. Lots of places in TX have hog pastures to hunt in and they are stocked in those pastures for the purpose, especially for bow hunters. And most pastures are field fencing with barbed wires on top with a couple of hot wires on the inside. But they have to be walked almost daily because the hogs will roll rocks, limbs and stuff up and ground out the wire. Then its just a mater of finding a low place under the fence and out they go.

On the flip side, a lot of places also have trap gates leading into the pastures and catch quite a few from the outside. 

Having lived in the heart of wild hog central for years, seeing them trapped, caught with dogs, shot out of helicopters, run down by bored teenagers in pick ups, shot by the dozen under feeders with SKS's, AKs and ARs as well as the ones taken by hunters, I think the only way to get rid of them will be poison. And if you poison hogs, what else what will be affected? 

Nope, Im afraid theyre are here to stay.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

Gailann Schrader said:


> don't wanna *catch* 'em. Necessarily. I'm pretty skilled with a rifle, actually...
> 
> Wanna get a mobile processing plant, set up shop near the damage, kill 'em, process and distribute the meat to needy's and I want the govt. to underwrite it.
> 
> ...


Up until this year, there was a huge hog dog tournament where the hogs were brought in chilled to be processed and the nmeat donated to the needy. The lag=rge grocery chain provided reefers to store them in and a colleg furnished students to process. 

This year the laws changed and all hogs had to be caught and brought in alive, to be killed in front of a USDA inspector and then handled as if they were any other hog thru a butcher shop.

Last year they processed about 35,000 lbs of hogs killed by contestants. This year only 17,442.5 lbs of live hogs were brought in. Thats what regulations do for you.

And personally, I pay enough in taxes and really dont care to see the government subsidize or under write anything else.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Years ago everyone including the govt. felt the same way about coyotes. 
They were hunted, shot, trapped, and poisoned.
Poison was dropped out of planes. They were hunted from planes and helicopters. Fur buyers bought the fur. There was a bounty on them.

Look how well that worked out.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

Gailann Schrader said:


> ... and and? Feral pigs are free food for the less fortunate...
> 
> sakes.
> 
> ...


Apparently you are unfamiliar with the massive amounts of property damage feral hogs are causing in Texas and other southern states. The population keeps expanding, in spite of a determined effort to hunt them back. They root up pasture land, making it unusable to cattle grazing and have been known to attack cows that are down and in labor and the resulting newborn calves.


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

farmergirl said:


> Apparently you are unfamiliar with the massive amounts of property damage feral hogs are causing in Texas and other southern states. The population keeps expanding, in spite of a determined effort to hunt them back. They root up pasture land, making it unusable to cattle grazing and have been known to attack cow that are down and in labor and the resulting newborn calves.




So this is reason to outlaw raising hogs? As soon as we let them get their foot in the door, they'll keep pushing it open. I guarantee anyone, I'll be the only one killing my pigs.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

farmergirl said:


> Apparently you are unfamiliar with the massive amounts of property damage feral hogs are causing in Texas and other southern states. The population keeps expanding, in spite of a determined effort to hunt them back. They root up pasture land, making it unusable to cattle grazing and have been known to attack cow that are down and in labor and the resulting newborn calves.



Years back when sheep and goats were plentiful in the Hill Country and there was a bad drought, late 60s or early 70', the ranchers lost every kid and lamb and about 75% of grown ewes and nannies. To hogs. A friend of mine was deer hunting and more heard than saw because of fog, a slaughter that took out about 25 nannies and kids.

When the hogs finish, the only thing left is a fleshed out hide . 

They will eat any and everything. They will get in new row crops and follow the rows plowing up acres at a time to get the seed below. They can and do upturn acres of hay meadows and fancy lawns in a few hours. They ruin net wire fences, stock tanks, gardens and everything else they come on contact with.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

When I was in Texas, they had approx. 3 million feral pigs tearing up the land. 
Between the deer and the pigs, it can be tough driving in Texas!

It's always open season, no permits needed. Everyone is told to shoot the pigs they see and fill their freezers. And many do. I shot one that got on my property. Some kids make pets out of them.

It would be a shame to ban free food!


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Farmergirl? I'm very well aware of the damage they cause. And the extent. I know they are opportunistic eaters and kill other animals to survive. I'm aware of that too. I'm not defending them and nor do I want them coddled. 

My point is and always has been? In Michigan? Who's gonna bell the cat?

It's absolutely fine to say that they're a problem. They are a MASSIVE problem in the Southern states. And the problem is spreading. 

Can I come to your farm and kill your livestock because wild ones are a problem? Is that gonna be ok? ONCE THE INSPECTORS ARE ON YOUR FARM DO YOU THINK THEY'LL LEAVE YOU ALONE? What if they don't like other things on your farm? Again, I know there'll be guidelines. But the current broad criteria is straight or curly tail and erect or floppy ears. What other kind of pig is there?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Gailann Schrader said:


> Farmergirl? I'm very well aware of the damage they cause. And the extent. I know they are opportunistic eaters and kill other animals to survive. I'm aware of that too. I'm not defending them and nor do I want them coddled.
> 
> My point is and always has been? In Michigan? Who's gonna bell the cat?
> 
> ...


I agree that the law doesn't make sense and I would not let anyone on my property that planned on destroying my animals.
There does need to be some way to prevent the release, intentionally or accidentally, of anymore hogs with certain species in their bloodlines.
Maybe some type of permit like some exiotic animals have. Domestic hogs can become feral but are not as likely as some species.

At one time people gathered wild hogs and sold them through the sale ring. They didn't bring much but the people didn't invest much in them either. Then when game farms started having canned hunts they would buy them, mostly the black ones. Wasn't much call for any of the other colored ones.
Now in many places it is illegal to transport a live one.


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## bbbuddy (Jul 29, 2002)

Gailann Schrader said:


> ...so, not trying to be argumentative. However. What's your plan to eradicate the feral hogs?
> 
> Kill all the captive ones?


Look.... 
A FERAL hog (or pig) is ANY BREED that has gotten loose and lives and breeds in the wild. Any breed of pig.

That is what feral means. They can NOT be designated or recognized by physical features because they can be descendants of ANY BREED that has gotten loose and bred in the wild. Nobody has "captive feral hogs".

Unless you somehow find and capture very young feral piglets and farm-raise them, in which case they would no longer be FERAL.

Feral simply means wild.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

bbbuddy said:


> Look....
> A FERAL hog (or pig) is ANY BREED that has gotten loose and lives and breeds in the wild. Any breed of pig.
> 
> That is what feral means. They can NOT be designated or recognized by physical features because they can be descendants of ANY BREED that has gotten loose and bred in the wild. Nobody has "captive feral hogs".
> ...


Domestic hogs are bred for certain characteristics. All breeds look pretty much the same. Different colors, sizes, and shapes but not that much difference.
Feral pigs after just a few generation begin to look completely different from domestic hogs. The snout lengthens quite a bit, smaller ears with some having no ears at all, longer legged, coarser hair, and they will turn black.
Babie feral pigs will change to watermellon colors when very young, great camo, then get darker as they get older.

It is very easy to tell a feral hog from a domesticated hog just by looking.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Pancho, I've seen some feral hogs that looked better then some domestic hogs I've seen. We've solved the feral domestic hog arguement in Oklahoma any hogs loose for over 7 days are considered feral.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Allen W said:


> Pancho, I've seen some feral hogs that looked better then some domestic hogs I've seen. We've solved the feral domestic hog arguement in Oklahoma any hogs loose for over 7 days are considered feral.


Some hunting clubs will buy domestic hogs and release them for hunters. There are a lot of hunters that do not know the difference. I am sure people have seen the extra large hogs killed. The pictures shown are a domestic hog, tame as a kitten. Oversize boar are a favorite. Many hunters want to kill a 800lb boar. They don't care if it is in a cage just minutes before they shoot it.

I was born and raised in southeastern Okla. Little town called Finley. We ran hogs in the Kiamichi Mountains. Go to the livestock sale in Antlers and you can see hog buyers for hogs for hunting preserves. They will give more for the black ones but will buy any color large hog.

The range was closed many years ago in Okla. A hog running free is fair game, no matter if it has been running free 10 minutes or 7 days.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

looks wild but she born on a farm, her family line goes back over 20 years on a farm. She was bred to keep her old world look and thriftiness. Is she friendly? no but she was raised in a pig stye and they didn't play with their food. is she mean? no. is she running loose? no.

Tamworth look old worldish too

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/swine/


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> looks wild but she born on a farm, her family line goes back over 20 years on a farm. She was bred to keep her old world look and thriftiness. Is she friendly? no but she was raised in a pig stye and they didn't play with their food. is she mean? no. is she running loose? no.
> 
> Tamworth look old worldish too
> 
> Breeds of Livestock - Swine Breeds


Don't look feral to me but I have been around feral hogs for many years.
Looks like a domestic pig, mixed breed, but domestic.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

She is a registered ossabaw.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

What a pretty pig! She's very lovely...


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> She is a registered ossabaw.


Probably the lack of any wild boar blood that makes them look like domestic pigs. A little wild boar blood goes a long ways, especially when it is survival of the fittest.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

pancho said:


> Some hunting clubs will buy domestic hogs and release them for hunters. There are a lot of hunters that do not know the difference. I am sure people have seen the extra large hogs killed. The pictures shown are a domestic hog, tame as a kitten. Oversize boar are a favorite. Many hunters want to kill a 800lb boar. They don't care if it is in a cage just minutes before they shoot it.
> 
> I was born and raised in southeastern Okla. Little town called Finley. We ran hogs in the Kiamichi Mountains. Go to the livestock sale in Antlers and you can see hog buyers for hogs for hunting preserves. They will give more for the black ones but will buy any color large hog.
> 
> The range was closed many years ago in Okla. A hog running free is fair game, no matter if it has been running free 10 minutes or 7 days.


I was only talking about animals i had personally seen and handled. I was wrong about the seven days loose law it is 5 days here is the quote from the Okla. DWC site. "Feral hogs are defined as any hogs, including Russian and European wild boar, which are running at large and whose owners are unknown. In the case where the hog's owner is known, the hog will be defined as feral five days after escaping confinement. If notice is provided to adjacent landowners within those five days, the hog shall not be considered feral for an additional 10 days." Hog Hunting It was to clarify mis understandings when out landers had disputes with locals in some areas of the state.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

I was around when Okla. was open range. Livestock were allowed to run on any property that wasn't fenced in. The highway right of way was a good place to run cattle for many people. If a person ran over a cow they were responsible for paying for it. If an animal came onto your land and you didn't want it there you had to fence it out.
People released ghogs each year in the fall to fatten on the acorn crop. They then gathered them up for sale or slaughter.
When the range was closed some people were put out of the livestock business. A few people had several hundred head of livestock and an acre to keep them on. If your livestock got loose and was run over by an auto you were responsible for paying for the auto. There were many barns and homes burned by people who were put out of business.
Quite a few of the hogs free ranged were never gathered. There wasn't much problem with them as hunters killed them as much as possible.
Then people started posting their land an allowed no hunting or paid hunts.
The hog population exploded as the majority of these hunters did not hunt for hogs.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

I bow hunted on the McAllister Army Ammunition Depot in '98. As the rules were being read to the entire group, we were told at that time the law read all hogs were considered some one's property and they could not be legally killed without the owners permission. 

He then went on to tell us if we found one " fresh dead " and wanted to bring it in to clean and take home, that was perfectly ok. I believe every person present understood what was being said.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> It's a shame THIS responsible pork farmer is being forced out of business because of the irresponsibility of others


The regulation says "sporting swine facility", not "farm"



> *Sporting swine facilities can use the next six months to schedule hunts to reduce the population of sporting swine on their properties. Facilities still in possession of sporting swine on April 1, 2012, may face violations and fines.*


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

michigan DNR vs SMALL HOG FARM part3 - YouTube

Sporting Swine Facility = farm

farm = An area of land and its buildings used for growing crops and rearing animals, typically under the control of one owner or manager 

Sporting swine listed as an invasive species | Great Lakes Echo

"By April 2012, sporting and breeding facilities won't be allowed to have sporting swine because they can get loose and become feral."


DNR - DNR Order Listing Sporting Swine as Invasive Species Takes Effect

Invasive Species Order

"b) Wild boar, wild hog, wild swine, feral pig, feral hog, feral swine, Old world swine, razorback, eurasian wild boar, Russian wild boar (Sus scrofa Linnaeus). This subsection does not and is not intended to affect sus domestica involved in domestic hog production."

There is an additional piece that explains it in detail, seeming to allow these "sporting swine" but I'm not sure if this piece was prior to the other bit or not. I'm still reading. It's here:



under Invasive Species order (Updated 08/08/2011)


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Bakers Green Acres


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

The Environment Report: Lawmakers Wrestling with Wild Hogs

referencing Ted Nugent's opposition...


additionally, Baker's Green Acres blog notes dated February 27, 2012 from Jill in Green: "Michigan has an open season on feral hogs . In 2010 656,500 hunters shot approximately 418,000 deer. This year is expected to be close to the same. The DNR stated in a meeting on February first of this year that only 42 hogs were shot last year. How could so many hunters spend about 9.6 million total days in the field and only shoot 42 hogs if there are thousands of them out there?"

I posted the link in an above post.


My point? I'm not making this up, I don't have a tin-foil hat on, I don't buy MRE's, and this is Michigan. One of our 50. How close are you to Michigan? I, for one, live very close. 

I would prefer to be able to raise what animals, within reason, I desire to. Ravenous wolves in the city? Allowed but not exactly the best pet. Tigers? Elephants? Baboons? Rattlesnakes? Sure.

Raising a variety of non-CAFO, phenotypical-"feral" with one or more indicators, hand-tame hogs on your own farm inside your own fences? Illegal in Michigan on April 1.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Did you ask for more documentation instead of just some TEOTWAWKI-spouting radical crackpot? 

Like a level-headed citizen pointing out a troubling issue for smallholdings and farms?

ok.

here:

Michigan DNR Going Hog Wild

You are welcome.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Still having trouble with this issue? 

Here is from a group that is part of NPR. They are that really-biased, crackpot radio entity that all wear tin-foil hats... Oh. Wait. They aren't. 

A pig ban gets muddy | Michigan Radio


Although I think this one has already been posted.... No? Well, now it has...

Just sayin'...


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Gailann Schrader said:


> What a pretty pig! She's very lovely...


Thank you =)


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

NH Fish and Game as someone whose job it is to hunt feral hogs. He says he has no trouble at all telling escaped wild boar from escaped heritage domestic breeds even after a few generations.

Something about trying to kill him versus trying to disappear.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Gailann Schrader said:


> Bakers Green Acres


this man has some very good YouTubes.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Gailann Schrader said:


> ...so, not trying to be argumentative. However. What's your plan to eradicate the feral hogs?
> 
> Kill all the captive ones?
> 
> ...



Wild Hogs are not native to Michigan. They got here by people importing them with the intention of selling them for people to shoot. Instead, many escaped and they pose a danger to crops and livestock.
A lot of effort is being made to cut down the numbers of Wild Boar in the wild. Does it make any sense to allow people to continue to breed this invasive species, since it has been shown a hundred times over that they escape?
I agree it will be difficult to eradicate feral hogs. Allowing hunters and landowners to shoot them on sight is one step in the process.
In New Zeeland, the government dropped poison bait along a mile wide path to kill their unwanted wildlife. Doubt Michigan will resort to that.
Seems to me that saying you can eradicate them with traps is naive. 
Deer do not produce 20 or 30 offspring each year. Wild Hogs can. Killing the sows will help, but killing sows, boars, gilts and tiny babies will help even more.
Yes, the feral hogs will still be there, but if the on-farm breeding stops, the population growth of recently escaped Wild Hogs stops.
No one is talking about killing all non-CAFOs. 
I like the bounty idea. Just get a list of everyone that imported and bred Wild Hogs and have them pay the bounty and keep paying until the problem is eliminated. Taxpayers shouldnât have to pay for the stupidity of Wild Hog importers and breeders. 
How about this idea: Require every Wild Hog to have a microchip. Any Wild Hog found out of the pen and the breeder gets a $10,000 fine. Any Wild hog on the farm without a microchip, farmers gets a $10,000 fine. Then we will know who to charge for the cleanup. At least the first generation.
Pigs are smart and we are smarter. However, Wild Hogs can afford to expend everything they have to grow and multiply. Humans are unwilling to expend major amounts of time and resources to this issue.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

HayPoint said:


> No one is talking about killing all non-CAFOs.


The problem is, as the rule is currently written, almost all pigs could be determined to be feral or feral hybrids. The rules explicitely states that pigs will be judged phenotypically and further gives a list of phenotypic attributes that describe every pig including those raised in commercial hog barns, but most especially those not. 

According to the rule one or more of these is sufficient for declaring a pig an invasive species: 

&#8226;	Bristle-tip coloration: Sus scrofa exhibit bristle tips that are lighter in color (e.g., white, cream, or buff) than the rest of the hair shaft. This expression is most frequently observed across the dorsal portion and sides of the snout/face, and on the back and sides of the animal&#8217;s body.

&#8226;	Dark &#8220;point&#8221; coloration: Sus scrofa exhibit &#8220;points&#8221; (i.e., distal portions of the snout, ears, legs, and tail) that are dark brown to black in coloration, and lack light-colored tips on the bristles.

*&#8226;	Coat coloration: Sus scrofa exhibit a number of coat coloration patterns. Patterns most frequently observed among wild/feral/hybrid types are: wild/grizzled; solid black; solid red/brown; black and white spotted; black and red/brown spotted.*

_Translation: If a pig is not pink and lacking a hair coat it may be feral or a feral hybrid._

&#8226;	Underfur: Sus scrofa exhibit the presence of underfur that is lighter in color (e.g., smoke gray to brown) than the overlying dark brown to black bristles/guard hairs.
Declaratory Ruling	-3-	December 13, 2011

&#8226;	Juvenile coat pattern: Juvenile Sus scrofa exhibit striped coat patterns. This consists of a light grayish-tan to brown base coat, with a dark brown to black spinal stripe and three to four brown irregular longitudinal stripes with dark margins along the length of the body.

&#8226;	*Skeletal appearance: Sus scrofa skeletal structure is distinct. Structures include skull morphology, dorsal profile, and external body measurements including tail length, head- body length, hind foot length, ear length, snout length, and shoulder height.*

_Translation: If a pig does not conform to current commercial market standards it may be feral or a feral hybrid. Never mind, breed standards dictate some pigs do not conform to those standards. And never mind, those standards interfere with a pig's ability to thrive outside an intensive rearing environment. Oh, yeah! And never mind, even cafo operators will eventually find themselves up poo creek without a paddle when those genetics are wholly eradicated. And last but not least, please note no actual parameters are given for any of the structural attributes they'll be using to determine whether or not a hog is an invasive species. This leaves the door open for it to be any darn thing they want. _

&#8226;	*Tail structure: Sus scrofa exhibit straight tails. They contain the muscular structure to curl their tails if needed, but the tails are typically held straight. Hybrids of Sus scrofa exhibit either curly or straight tail structure.*

_Translation: If a pig has a tail it may be feral or a feral hybrid. Okkkkayyyy, then. _

&#8226;	*Ear structure: Sus scrofa exhibit erect ear structure. Hybrids of Sus scrofa exhibit either erect or folded/floppy ear structure.*

_Translation: If a pig has ears it may be feral or a feral hybrid. _

&#8226;	*Other characteristics not currently known to the MDNR that are identified by the scientific community.*

_Translation: Any d**n thing we want!_


Let's think about some of the common breeds of domestic pigs kept on homesteads and alternative farms. 

Tamworth - solid red coat, erect ears, long snout. Three strikes. 

Gloucestershire Old Spot - Spotted coat, floppy ears, holds tail both straight and curled, long legged. Four strikes. 

Large Black - Solid black coat, floppy ears, holds tail both straight and curled, long legged, long snout. Five Strikes. 

Mulefoot - Solid black coat, floppy ears, holds tail both straight and curled, long legged, long snout, skull structure reminiscent of wild type. Six Strikes. 

Red Wattle - Solid red coat, holds tail both straight and curled, long legged, long snout, may have dark point coloration. Five Strikes. 

Slippery, slippery slope they're standing on. And I think farmers who raise alternative breeds are right to be uneasy about this as it's currently written. 

That said, it's also a good idea to do something about this issue before it gets as out of control as it has in the south. And it's in small farmers' interest to cooperate as their farms are at greater risk for disease transmission, specifically. I agree that identification and stiff fines for pigs gone feral is a much better resolution than the vague phenotypic standards currently set forth.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

If they get away with doing this, I'm gonna have a house full of AHH that I'll be hiding!!

Somehow tho, I just can't see them going thru with the plan if there's enough folks willing to fight it and not be wusses. Perhaps when they see the .357 on my hip and my livestock guardian dogs (American Pit Bull Terriers) they won't bother me! -LOL-


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

If you don't want to rely on rumors, get the straight scoop by calling directly to the DNR Wildlife Division at 517-373-1263.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

haypoint said:


> Wild Hogs are not native to Michigan. .


No hogs are native to michigan.

No hogs are native to north america.

Fat, pink, curly tailed pigs are not native to michigan nor north america.

All hogs can become feral. Fat, pink, curly tailed domestic pigs become lean, black, straight tailed feral hogs within a short time. The only difference is some like the Russians are a bit more hardy and bigger as feral.

By your standards, all hogs would have to be killed.

The feral hogs are here to stay. The cat was already let out of the bag. Those feral hogs down south? They are and will increase migration into the northern states.

Killing people's domestic breeds will not stop it. It'll only cost money and destroy peoples livelyhoods. For nothing.

My wifes potbelly pig has a straight tail. Maybe the state should come kill it.

And I love wild pig meat. YUM.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Bad decision on the courts and DNR. 

If you think this won't be abused well your a gambler.

I also find it funny reading through the tread many keep referring to species? 

A PIGS A PIG FOLKS! they may be different breeds but they are all the same species.

I hunt all over the state I also just like to spend time in the woods, Lots of time.

I have yet to see a Unicorn or Ferrel hog? or signs of any. not to say they are not around.
As far as Michigan goes, we probably have the most hunters per capita of any state.
Not one would allow a pig free to pass. I don't care if its pink with a curly tail or hairy with tusks. perhaps that is the reason. 

Limiting our farmers or even the Hunt clubs is not the answer. We need all the revenue we can muster. 

Not a fan of canned hunts but if that is the problem then it should be them that are regulated better. Not our small holders.

this is really a Chicken little the sky is falling mentality. unless they build a high wall on our southern border you can not legitimately say you have solved the feral pig issue.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

||Downhome|| said:


> I also find it funny reading through the tread many keep referring to species?
> 
> A PIGS A PIG FOLKS! they may be different breeds but they are all the same species.
> 
> .


That is the big problem.
Some people don't know the difference in breed and species.
There are different species of hogs, and different sub species.
A breed is a sub species of swine, a domestic hog bred for a certain characteristic.
Sus Scrofa domesticus.

A wild boar is a sub species, not a breed, and is a wild hog.
Sus Scrofa Linnaeus.

Sort of like the difference in a horse and a jackass.
They are both members of the horse family, can breed together, but not the same.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

pancho said:


> That is the big problem.
> Some people don't know the difference in breed and species.
> There are different species of hogs, and different sub species.
> A breed is a sub species of swine, a domestic hog bred for a certain characteristic.
> ...


now if you said a Peccaries or wart hogs I would agree as difference of species vs breed, as far as horses and donkeys they are separate but closely related species. how you know this is sterile offspring! 

Fact is all pig descend from the Eurasian boar (Russian wild boar) . do a DNA test and tell any of them apart? you won't... again Breed not species. Breed any of these banned invasive "species" of pig and you will have fertile offspring. 

Now let me ask a question are all the breed of dogs breeds or subspecies?


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

||Downhome|| said:


> now if you said a Peccaries or wart hogs I would agree as difference of species vs breed, as far as horses and donkeys they are separate but closely related species. how you know this is sterile offspring!
> 
> Fact is all pig descend from the Eurasian boar (Russian wild boar) .* do a DNA test and tell any of them apart? you won't...* again Breed not species. Breed any of these banned invasive "species" of pig and you will have fertile offspring.
> 
> Now let me ask a question are all the breed of dogs breeds or subspecies?


Actually, you're wrong there. It's believed that all pigs do descend from ancient wild stock that was domesticated (or not in the case of those still wild) but today there are significant DNA markers that differentiate a number of the breeds. Conservancy programs have teamed up with researchers to demonstrate this and to identify the differences. If there was no genetic difference rare breed conservancy would be moot. In this case the fundamental DNA differences may be one of a number of arguments small holders would be wise to stand on in this fight. Even many of the "big boys" in the pork industry acknowledge the need to preserve different genetic strains for the future, they're just not willing to put up the cash to do it so that falls to small holders and conservancy programs. Of course, when the time comes that those genetics are needed they won't have any problem knocking.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

could the markers not exist in wild stock? did all pigs originate in the same place? I have to say yes to question one and no to two. the Continent's known as Europe and Asia is vast.
show me a sampling of the whole population plus and I will concur. until then its still for grabs.


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

The first I heard of the ISO was this week. I hope that it is recalled. I understand what they are trying to do but they are going about it the wrong way. They are about to make a criminal out of anyone who owns what they consider a "feral" hog. And from what it sounds like, the definition of feral is left up to the individual officer who visits your farm that day. This is crazy people! We can't let this happen or what will be next?
Will the guy who shows up here know the difference between my Mulefoot and a hairy Mangalitsa? The traits they listed as those of a wild hog could be any of the breeds on the ALBC critical list.


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## zephyrcreek (Mar 30, 2012)

Another interesting "opinion" about the situation. I have to say my opinion pretty much matches the article. 

Three Reasons the Pork Industry Wants to Get Rid of Heritage Breeds, and They're All About $$$; Sugar Next? | The Complete Patient


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

...it's so totally gonna be different when we only have one or two "approved" strains of hogs. 

Then all this silly rhetoric about choice and personal preference and free will will be over.

Pork will come in one package in the grocery store labeled "PORK." 

Then onward and upward...

I'm so looking forward to that...


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

In case anyone is paying attention:

Bakers Green Acres

recent blog - from 4/3...

They were told that the DNR trucks were coming to slaughter their animals.

I'm not sure how much more definitive that can be for the "no way this will happen" folks... or the "this is just a ploy to get money from us" folks...

Looks like all of us sensible people are helping, but the DNR is it's own entity...


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## Dragonid (Mar 6, 2012)

Lazy J said:


> The ban is NOT for Heritage breed, rather specific species of pigs, _Sus scrofa_. The pig farmer on the video has that species, so to stay in business he needs to switch species of pigs, Sus domestica which encompasses the typical breeds of pigs virtually everyone rasies for meat.
> 
> Jim


I'm afraid you and a lot of others don't understand how the Latin names are properly used. Boring CAFO pigs are _Sus scrofa domestica_, genus _Sus_, *species* _scrofa_, breed/sub-species _domestica_. Many wild species of _Sus_ exist, but there are dozens of breeds/sub-species of _Sus scrofa_ other than _domestica_. All _Sus scrofa_ can interbreed, wild or domestic(_domestica_), and produce fertile offspring, that is what defines a species.

TLDR: the white pig in a giant barn with 2000 others that look just like it, and the furry tusked boar in a forest in Russia are the same species, _Sus scrofa_.



> Skeletal appearance: Sus scrofa skeletal structure is distinct. Structures include skull morphology, dorsal profile, and external body measurements including tail length, head- body length, hind foot length, ear length, snout length, and shoulder height.
> Tail structure: Sus scrofa exhibit straight tails. They contain the muscular structure to curl their tails if needed, but the tails are typically held straight. Hybrids of Sus scrofa exhibit either curly or straight tail structure.
> Ear structure: Sus scrofa exhibit erect ear structure. Hybrids of Sus scrofa exhibit either erect or folded/floppy ear structure.


For the Greek/Latin and Legaleese disinclined, theese three points define any pig as wildtype. Any and all pigs. Any shape, any conformation. The DNR order requires only one positive characteristic for declaration as wildtype. It is impossible not to qualify for all three.

The DNR people who wrote this and signed it into law should be fired for gross incompetance. If a single animal is destroyed based upon this document, even a bumbling idiot could win a court case that would overturn this executive writ. The govenor ought to countermand it before the state gets sued.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

"Something very positive came out of Baker&#8217;s testimony, though. Senate and House members were so struck by the DNR&#8217;s intended trespass on private property rights, that 16 of them co-signed this letter to the governor, Letter to Gov Snyder 3-30-12 asking him to intervene to end the threat to small farms and private landowners."

http://hartkeisonline.com/animal-hu...cloakroom-tactics-to-foil-small-farm-defense/

the letter

http://hartkeisonline.com/wp-content/uploads/Letter-to-Gov-Snyder-3-30-12.pdf


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I just ran across an article that came out in the Tuesday March 27, 2012 issue of the Grand Rapids Press. I have the printed page and will try to get their online version that I can cut and paste. My typing isn&#8217;t that fast to retype the whole article. 
DNR Director Rodney Stokes sent a letter to breeders of Mangalitsa pigs states, in part that they can keep their pigs, unless they have crossed them with Eurasian Wild Boar. He stated publicly that they hoped that having notified everyone, that they would hold enough hunts to get rid of the animals on the ranches and hunt clubs. 
The article states: After April 1, we will be doing inspections. We will, in many cases, ask the property owners to handle the depopulation on their own.
Mark and Jill knew this. I&#8217;m sure it was written before the &#8220;Sunday Showdown&#8221; that never was going to happen. Feel sorry for the folks that got scammed out of their money supporting a situation Mark and Jill knew wasn&#8217;t going to happen.
I think eventually they&#8217;ll have to butcher their Eurasian Wild Boar and his crosses. Then they can get back to preserving the heritage breed that they tried to make you believe was their only intent.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

in many cases. does not mean all.
they only have to have one trait to be unlawful.
I didn't see him trying to scam anyone. in fact he very open and even videoed the pigs he used.


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

I missed part of this. I thought he has Mangalistas. Is he crossing with eurasian Boar? If so then they need to goin the freezer. If they are pure mangs or other cross then they should be fine. What's the real side of this?


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

blaineiac said:


> I missed part of this. I thought he has Mangalistas. Is he crossing with eurasian Boar? If so then they need to goin the freezer. If they are pure mangs or other cross then they should be fine. What's the real side of this?


Maybe more information will be coming out. Right now there seems to be more than two sides to this issue. Hope there will be cooperation with the state and small hog farm operators to understand what is really going on.


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

IMO, at this time it should not matter who is raising what type of hog. No one should have to saluter their hogs until the law has been reviewed and reworded. I understand that the hogs running free are a problem or a potential problem and I agree that there should be a plan in place to deal with them but I don't feel this law is the way to do it.


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## Beowulf (Aug 27, 2010)

blaineiac said:


> I missed part of this. I thought he has Mangalistas. Is he crossing with eurasian Boar? If so then they need to goin the freezer. If they are pure mangs or other cross then they should be fine. What's the real side of this?


He is crossing his mangalitsa boars with russian sows. He has been up front about this from the beginning. According to Baker, he does it because the russian sows produce more offspring per farrowing than mangalitsa, and don't have any problems farrowing outside. He can still sell the offspring as F1 mangalitsa crosses. I picked all this up from watching his various videos - many of which have nothing to do with the MDNR ISO.

The biggest problem that I see is that the ISO is so vaguely worded as to be able to be applied to any pig that a DNR authority says it applies to. They can say "oh, you don't have to worry," all they want, but the wording of the ISO is what it is, and those who are enforcing it can likely bury anyone who fights it in court costs until they are bankrupt, and then it won't matter any more anyway.

I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but this is exactly the kind of problem that comes from legislatures giving a bureaucratic body the authority to make laws. This should always be reserved for the legislature, since bureaucrats are not beholden to the voters, and legislators are.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Maverick_mg said:


> IMO, at this time it should not matter who is raising what type of hog. No one should have to saluter their hogs until the law has been reviewed and reworded. I understand that the hogs running free are a problem or a potential problem and I agree that there should be a plan in place to deal with them but I don't feel this law is the way to do it.


Love to hear your plan.


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

Beowulf said:


> He is crossing his mangalitsa boars with russian sows. He has been up front about this from the beginning. According to Baker, he does it because the russian sows produce more offspring per farrowing than mangalitsa, and don't have any problems farrowing outside. He can still sell the offspring as F1 mangalitsa crosses. I picked all this up from watching his various videos - many of which have nothing to do with the MDNR ISO.
> 
> 
> I agree with the State killing them then. At least the Sows and ALL the F1 crosses. There are plenty of other breeds he can cross them to, which aren't covered by the law. I agree that the wording is a little sketchy, but his Russian sows are the specific reason for the law. Not his Mangs. I'm not for the Govt. telling me what to do, but I agree with them on this.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

blaineiac said:


> Beowulf said:
> 
> 
> > He is crossing his mangalitsa boars with russian sows. He has been up front about this from the beginning. According to Baker, he does it because the russian sows produce more offspring per farrowing than mangalitsa, and don't have any problems farrowing outside. He can still sell the offspring as F1 mangalitsa crosses. I picked all this up from watching his various videos - many of which have nothing to do with the MDNR ISO.
> ...


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

I don't agree with ANY plan that includes someone coming to MY FARM and arbitrarily killing my *properly fenced and maintained animals *- no matter what.


Hey. I don't like your cats. Some cats get loose and they are eating birds. YOUR cats look like the cats that look like the cats that we want to say are eating birds. 

I think I'll kill them while you watch, k? But I get to decide. Four feet? check. Tail? check. Fur? check. 



I have 3/4 Nubians. 1/4 Oberhasli. Show no outward tendencies/signs of the Obes. Obes are banned. How can I tell they are Oberhasil? Oh, right. They have four feet, tails and ears. 


What's the difference?


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

OOOOOOOOh. Even better? 

Dancing is EEEEEEEEEvil. Dancing is banned. Let's ban dancing...

oh. right.

shuffling feet? dancing. skipping? dancing.



OH! LET'S BAN HIGH SCHOOLS BECAUSE ALL HIGH SCHOOLS HAVE DRUGS!!! There. No high schools because kids might go to high school and take drugs, become incorrigible and kill us in our sleep. Yeah. Even YOUR kid. 

Incorrigible = High School = disaster/kids = death.

PIGS are not the issue. FERAL ANIMALS are the issue. Feral animals have always been the issue. AND the issue is that someone somewhere in Michigan (DNR) decided they could control the feral animals by making a declaratory ruling. 

*I* am personally pretty sure feral pigs can't read. Or they'd be high-tailin' it out of Michigan and to some other warmer area... 

The irresponsible owners that allow animals to escape/turn them loose for whatever reason should be fined, sanctioned and punished.


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

I believe the only reason he is crossing them with russians is so he can get a similar look to his mutts which he will eventually sell as "Pure". Larger litter?... Many hogs average larger litters and still carry the "lard" gene. He is working toward being a "Pig Peddler" which I think is way worse than raising wild hogs. It appears that he is trying to get some crosses that have larger litters (which equals more money) that are gonna lose part of their lard making ability, all so he can sell more "Pure Mangs" for high dollar to unsuspecting buyers. Not only is he working this scam, he is working you people to finance his venture. Wow, I really wish this was in the least bit funny because I feel bad for laughing so hard.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

If he was planing that why would he let it be known ALL over the internet? on videos BEFORE all of this. many "rarer" breeds have only a few piglets.
increasing litter size is a good thing. 
mothering ability is a good thing. 
being able to to farrow outside is a good thing. 
have lard for specialty market a good thing.
crosses can grow faster and sometimes better then pure. example Cornish/rock chicken, cal/new Zealand in rabbits.....


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Heterosis. aka hybrid vigor...

We all do it. Blue butts are just such an example... Even the CAFOs do it...


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

But the only reason he is crossing with russian is to keep the "look" to the mutts he is hoping on mass producing. I remember 2 years ago when the only place to get Mangs was out west and about $2000 a piece. This is no different than everyone selling Large Blacks from litters that have 12 breeder quality piglets for $300. Any quality breeder, be it dogs, chickens or hogs, is only selling 10% as breeder quality. He is trying to sell mutts as pure and wants to make as many little ones as possible.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Here is an article written last week, from the Grand Rapids Press:

Grand Rapids Press 04/05/2012, Page A01





State to enforce ban on owning wild pigs 
Feral swine become illegal game April 1; some farms may offer hunters domestic pigs 


BY ROSEMARY PARKER 

[email protected] 

Only 105 feral pigs were officially sighted, killed or found dead in Michigan last year, a fraction of the population wildlife authorities believe is on the loose. 

But the spigot is about to be turned off, wildlife officials believe, as enforcement begins next month on an order that makes it illegal to own pig species most likely to survive in the wild. 

âThis is the conservation community, environmentalists, sportsmen, and agricultureâ working together, said Dennis Fijalkowski, executive director of the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy in Bath. 

âThe DNR is doing what the state of Michigan is asking them to do. We are very strongly supportive.â 

Numbers uncertain 

Because they have not, to date, been regulated, itâ s not quite clear how many wild pigs were on Michiganâs 60-some game ranches last fall when the breeds were declared, by order, an invasive species in Michigan, said Ed Golder, spokesman for the Michigan Department of Natural Resources. 

Nor is it exactly clear, come April 1 when the deadline for enforcing that order arrives, how state authorities will pr oceed. 

The hope was that, over the winter, ranches would hold enough hunts to get rid of the animals on their farms and move on under new state rules, Golder said, or would sell the animals to ranches in other states, where they are still legal game. 

âWe think about half of the farms have depopulated,â Golder said. âThose are the just the swine owners we kn ow about. There could be more.â 

After April 1, âour hope is to be invited onto farms voluntarily. We will be doing inspections. Follow-up inspections may be needed, depending on what we find,â Golder said. âWe will, in many cases, ask property owners to handle the depopulation on their own.â 

Every farm may require a slightly different approach, he sa id. 

âWe are in litigation with a handful of facilities, so the protocol for each visit will depend on which facility weâre planning to inspect.â 

Now that exotic boars no longer will be allowed, some farms may host swine hunts using plain old domestic porkers such as those found on a farm. 

âNothing in the Invasive Species Order would prevent ranches from selling hunts for domestic swine. The order outlaws a particular type of pig, not the purpose for which the animals are used,â Golder sa id. 

Weeding out feral swine 

Nor does the invasive species order, aimed at reducing Michiganâs feral swine population, include domestic swine breeds such as those that have found a niche market among chefs and foodies. 

The breeders of Mangalitsa pigs, for instance, were concerned that their animals might fall under the ISO, Golder said. 

A letter from DNR director Rodney Stokes states in part, âIt is the DNRâs understanding that purebred Mangalitsa swine do not exh ibit characteristics listed in the Declaratory Ruling, other than potentially striped piglets. The invasive species order would not prohibit purebred Mangalitsa swine based solely on this characteristic.â 

However, in the event that breeders have cr ossed Mangalitsas with Eurasian wild boar or any of the swine outlawed under the ISO, those hybrid animals would still be prohibited, Golder said. 

The April 1 enforcement deals with only with invasive species still in captivity, and thatâs only a start, Fijalkowski said. 

Weâre on track toward getting rid of those behind fences, and shutting off the faucetâ of animals that may escape into the wild, he said. 

When it comes to wild pigs running loose, âit continues to be legal and encouraged to take feral swine opportunistically in Michigan,â Golder said â that is, shoot them if you see them. 

Under the law, âa person with a concealed pistol permit or valid hunting license can kill swine running at large on public property; landowners or other authorized persons can kill swine running at large on private property; and local animal control officers and law enforcement can kill swine running at large on either public or private land,â Golder said. 

âNothing in the Invasive Species Order would prevent ranches from selling hunts for domestic swine. The order outlaws a particular type of pig, not the purpose for which the animals are used.â


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

blaineiac said:


> But the only reason he is crossing with russian is to keep the "look" to the mutts he is hoping on mass producing. I remember 2 years ago when the only place to get Mangs was out west and about $2000 a piece. This is no different than everyone selling Large Blacks from litters that have 12 breeder quality piglets for $300. Any quality breeder, be it dogs, chickens or hogs, is only selling 10% as breeder quality. He is trying to sell mutts as pure and wants to make as many little ones as possible.


didn't know you could breed a dead pig. his offspring pigs are freezer/restaurant bond

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOBUKrMXfGw&feature=plcp&context=C48ea909VDvjVQa1PpcFOIDzKMWvCGuYo9tLPtIQ6VBLuIzF7IiVg=[/ame]


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

> &#8220;our hope is to be invited onto farms voluntarily."


I just must say.... BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

olivehill said:


> I just must say.... BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


My thoughts exactly. Lol.


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Love to hear your plan.


Have a list of exemptions. Name, by name, all of the hogs that will be exempt so that the only ones that are left on the ISO are the ones banned. 
Example: Registered heritage swine such as Large Black, Gloucestershire Old Spot, Mulefoot, Hereford etc. and their crosses are exempt from ISO assuming crosses were not a result of breeding with Russian swine.....
They can work their way through the heritage swine by name, then conventional swine by name, then everyone will know where they stand on what is allowed to be raised and what is not.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Maverick_mg said:


> Have a list of exemptions. Name, by name, all of the hogs that will be exempt so that the only ones that are left on the ISO are the ones banned.
> Example: Registered heritage swine such as Large Black, Gloucestershire Old Spot, Mulefoot, Hereford etc. and their crosses are exempt from ISO assuming crosses were not a result of breeding with Russian swine.....
> They can work their way through the heritage swine by name, then conventional swine by name, then everyone will know where they stand on what is allowed to be raised and what is not.


Wish it were so clear.
I've seen what happens in communities that ban Pit Bulls. People deny any Pit Bull blood and come up with all sorts of rare breeds that are crossed with Staffiford , Mastiff and a whole group that when crossed with something else can't be sure it is or isn't Pit Bull.

The same is likely with pigs. If this really were about DNR taking away heritage Breeds, why are people that raise these questionable crosses even crossing them? If people were consistant with their desires to preserve a rare breed, then wouldn't they be trying to keep the bloodline pure?

If you are raising pigs that look like Russian Wild boar or Eurasian Wild Boar or Razorback or any of the other Wild Pig varieties, too bad. If you are raising heritage varieties and are staying away from the Wild varieties, you don't have to worry.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

olivehill said:


> I just must say.... BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


âour hope is to be invited onto farms voluntarily." 

I think that is government speak for " But if we have to get warrents, we will."


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

"makes it illegal to own pig species most likely to survive in the wild"
in other words "dirt pigs" or any other then "cement pigs"

"domestic porkers such as those found on a farm."

sooo porkers found on a farm is domestic? wow isn't that what we have been saying?

"would not prohibit purebred Mangalitsa swine based *solely* on this characteristic.&#8221;
they also have curly tails and upright ears. and why do they get off with striped pigs? that wouldn't be far. the DNR getting to pick and choose who's gets to keep their pigs that show characteristics that are unlawful.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

haypoint said:


> Wish it were so clear.
> I've seen what happens in communities that ban Pit Bulls. People deny any Pit Bull blood and come up with all sorts of rare breeds that are crossed with Staffiford , Mastiff and a whole group that when crossed with something else can't be sure it is or isn't Pit Bull.
> 
> The same is likely with pigs. If this really were about DNR taking away heritage Breeds, why are people that raise these questionable crosses even crossing them? If people were consistant with their desires to preserve a rare breed, then wouldn't they be trying to keep the bloodline pure?
> ...


Except that I've clearly demonstrated that this is not true a couple of pages ago. As currently written the rule does not protect any breed of pig from inclusion in the eradication efforts. Any. Period. Many heritage breeds have not just the one strike required, but many strikes against them according to the phenotypic qualifications in the ISO. 

The eradication of feral pigs is important. More important to me than my CAFO hog farmer neighbor, as a matter of fact. My pigs are more at risk of disease transmission and injury should the feral hogs make their way to my property than those housed in barns from birth to slaughter. I _want_ feral hogs eradicated, but as it's written this rule is inefficient and a dangerously slippery slope on which to grant a government entity unprecedented power. 

The rule is broken. 

One easy way to fix it, imo, would be to define "domestic production". If, by "domestic production", they mean any commercial farm producing hogs for food sales? Fantastic! Put it in writing. Problem solved. 

Another option is identification. I'm not a huge fan of mandated stock IDs but if it takes care of the escape issues, so be it. Require permanent, farm-specific ID of all animals over a few days old. Put in place stiff fines for any pig caught running as well as stiff fines for possession of any animal over a few days of age without ID. Tattoos are simple, low financial barrier to entry and can easily be used for unique farm IDs.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

haypoint said:


> Wish it were so clear.
> I've seen what happens in communities that ban Pit Bulls. People deny any Pit Bull blood and come up with all sorts of rare breeds that are crossed with Staffiford , Mastiff and a whole group that when crossed with something else can't be sure it is or isn't Pit Bull.
> 
> .


so just ban boxer and boxer crosses too, right?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

olivehill said:


> Except that I've clearly demonstrated that this is not true a couple of pages ago. As currently written the rule does not protect any breed of pig from inclusion in the eradication efforts. Any. Period. Many heritage breeds have not just the one strike required, but many strikes against them according to the phenotypic qualifications in the ISO.
> 
> The eradication of feral pigs is important. More important to me than my CAFO hog farmer neighbor, as a matter of fact. My pigs are more at risk of disease transmission and injury should the feral hogs make their way to my property than those housed in barns from birth to slaughter. I _want_ feral hogs eradicated, but as it's written this rule is inefficient and a dangerously slippery slope on which to grant a government entity unprecedented power.
> 
> ...



Are you really saying that I should be allowed to raise Russian Hogs or Eurasian Hogs as long as I say I'm raising them to eat? and that solves what, exactly?

I like the ID idea, but when we are talking about people that wouldn't let any government type on their land, how are you going to get consistant compliance?

Some folks just like to get away with something, just their way of beating the system, I guess. Look at the Emerald ash Borer. The state put a ban on hauling firewood into the UP. I heard lots of folks that thought it was a scam to make people buy firewood in the UP. Lots of folks found ways to sneak it into the UP. As a result, we now have Emerald Ash Borers killing Ash trees in the UP, spread from the State Campgrounds and spreading outward. I'll bet, there are some folks interested in raising Russian Wild Hogs, just because there is a ban on them. "Nobody's gonna tell me what to do." without weighing the enviromental costs.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

haypoint said:


> Are you really saying that I should be allowed to raise Russian Hogs or Eurasian Hogs as long as I say I'm raising them to eat? and that solves what, exactly?


Read it again: 

"If, by "domestic production", they mean any *commercial farm* producing hogs for *food sales*? Fantastic! Put it in writing. Problem solved. "

Not a thing about it that'll come down to your word. If you're running a _commercial_ farm you'll have the records to prove it. Not to be confused with a 1000 sow CAFO. Thanks to other Ag legislature commercial is already defined for us, a farm with the intent to profit. I'll get a lot of flak for this, I'm sure, but I wouldn't mind seeing those without the intent to profit weeded out anyway. It'd do some good things for both farmers and heritage pigs, imo, but that's another thread entirely.

Now, personally, I would have no problem if they worded it in such a way that exempted commercial farms raising any breed EXCEPT Russians and Eurasians. Personally, I see no reason any farmer _needs_ russians and eurasians. Not a thing you can do with them that you can't accomplish with any number of established domestic breeds.

The enforcement on that would only get hairy when it comes to the hybrids and, as far as I'm concerned, that's splitting hairs that we really don't need to be concerned with. Eradicate the purebred population and the hybrids will be watered down with domestic blood within a couple of farrowing cycles. 



haypoint said:


> I like the ID idea, but when we are talking about people that wouldn't let any government type on their land, how are you going to get consistant compliance?
> 
> Some folks just like to get away with something, just their way of beating the system, I guess. Look at the Emerald ash Borer. The state put a ban on hauling firewood into the UP. I heard lots of folks that thought it was a scam to make people buy firewood in the UP. Lots of folks found ways to sneak it into the UP. As a result, we now have Emerald Ash Borers killing Ash trees in the UP, spread from the State Campgrounds and spreading outward. I'll bet, there are some folks interested in raising Russian Wild Hogs, just because there is a ban on them. "Nobody's gonna tell me what to do." without weighing the enviromental costs.


I agree with you, some people break rules just to break rules. But by that logic we ought just do nothing at all and I think we can both agree that's not going to get us anywhere either.


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## HillRunner (Jun 28, 2010)

So why are they just targeting wild boars would a hog ever a little pink Porky Yorkshire would turn feral in a year or so if that?


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## Yknot (Jan 1, 2012)

This is the Homesteaders today forum. I wish government and corporate shills would post on the government and corporate shill forum. I hope the Michigan governor puts a stop to the dnr and their unlawful intrusion into farms and homesteads. There are no natural resources on private property, only private resources.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

HillRunner said:


> So why are they just targeting wild boars would a hog ever a little pink Porky Yorkshire would turn feral in a year or so if that?


Maybe it is because that pink Yorkshire takes a few months to get acclamated and the Russians take a few minutes. Gives the hunters a fighting chance?


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

Olivehill, while I agree with you on many of your points, the ID thing would just end up being another tool to abuse down the road and could end up keeping small farms like mine from being able to afford the animals that require ID. 

While I don't call myself a "hobby farmer" ( I really don't like that term) I also am very careful to say I am a farmer. I do that out of respect for the farmers who taught me everything I know. They have a few hundred head of cattle and a few hundred acres of land that they work. I have a handful of animals, an okay size garden, and a dream of owning a tractor someday. I sell my produce eggs and such, but would have an outright heart attack if I turned a profit. My goal is to have the animals "keep themselves" monetarily. So loosing any animal I have would be a major blow to the farm and my family. I put a lot of years into researching each breed of animal I choose to raise and buy good stock. It makes me mad that broad terminology and someone's opinion could throw my stock in with riffraff. What happened to innocent until proven guilty. Prove my pig has Russian boar in it. Oh yeah, they don't have too cause they can see she has a straight tail. Straight tail = Russian boar. 
I put in more research into getting one pig then they put in to that entire law. 

Haypoint, the people fighting to keep their hogs, were not "trying to get away with something" til they came up with this law.


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## HillRunner (Jun 28, 2010)

I ment the Dnr a regular pig can go feral to.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

"Haypoint, the people fighting to keep their hogs, were not "trying to get away with something" til they came up with this law."

People saw the quick profit raising illegally imported wild hogs from down south. People saw the quick profit raising Russian and Eurasian wild hogs. Most knew they were difficult to contain and were not thinking of the environmental impact they would create.

This guy has a rare breed of pigs that he uses as his excuse to keep his "heritage breed" and has all the lovers of rare breeds all in a dither. But it is clear that his problem with the DNR is that Eurasian Boar he has been crossing his rare breed with. What is he doing? Preserving a rare heritage breed or creating a bigger, hairier Eurasian cross breed?

If he were to get rid of his Wild Hog boar and its half wild offspring, get back to preserving his heritage breed pigs, I'd say he is being a responsable farmer. The market for Wild Hogs at Hunt Clubs has dried up. Time to shift gears.

Instead, he has a friend post a story about waiting with friends all day on Sunday, for the DNR to come kill all his pigs. He knew that wasn't going to happen. The Grand Rapids Press had already been out to the farm. The DNR had already told him that they would be stopping out in a few days to get a count of animals. It is mostly hype that has served to excite the public to donate money to him over a non-issue.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

he never said that he was trying to preserve a rare breed. he has always been up front about where his offspring end up (eaten not hunted). and why he crosses.
and it shouldn't matter what breed or cross. if his pigs are doing nothing wrong he shouldn't be punished.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> he never said that he was trying to preserve a rare breed. he has always been up front about where his offspring end up (eaten not hunted). and why he crosses.
> and it shouldn't matter what breed or cross. if his pigs are doing nothing wrong he shouldn't be punished.


Most things in life are not based on our individual intent. We are a nation of laws. Shouldn't I be able to drive above the speed limit, since I've never been in an accident? Shouldn't I be able to beat my wife, since she's never complained? Shouldn't I be allowed to keep lions in my back yard, they have never escaped? Can my kids bring a gun to school, they have passed a gun safety class?

Thousands of Wild hogs are on the loose in Michigan. Everyone denies they are responsable. "Not my pigs, must be someone elses."

If his goal is really what he says it is, what's the reason to add a regressive breed to the mix? Is it really that hard to grasp that these invasive breeds are increasing the damage to our natural lands and crop lands?

He isn't being punished. He is getting paid market value for pigs that are Eurasian Wild Hogs and their crosses. Someone said the cost of ear tags would drive the small farmer into the poor house. If the margin is that thin, he should welcome a chance to get out and focus on something that can turn a profit.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

Maverick_mg said:


> Olivehill, while I agree with you on many of your points, the ID thing would just end up being another tool to abuse down the road and could end up keeping small farms like mine from being able to afford the animals that require ID.
> 
> While I don't call myself a "hobby farmer" ( I really don't like that term) I also am very careful to say I am a farmer. I do that out of respect for the farmers who taught me everything I know. They have a few hundred head of cattle and a few hundred acres of land that they work. I have a handful of animals, an okay size garden, and a dream of owning a tractor someday. I sell my produce eggs and such, but would have an outright heart attack if I turned a profit. My goal is to have the animals "keep themselves" monetarily. So loosing any animal I have would be a major blow to the farm and my family. I put a lot of years into researching each breed of animal I choose to raise and buy good stock. It makes me mad that broad terminology and someone's opinion could throw my stock in with riffraff. What happened to innocent until proven guilty. Prove my pig has Russian boar in it. Oh yeah, they don't have too cause they can see she has a straight tail. Straight tail = Russian boar.
> I put in more research into getting one pig then they put in to that entire law.
> ...


If you can't afford a $40 tattoo gun and $15 bottle of ink you're doing it wrong. Like I said, if you don't have intent to profit you're delivering your own blow to other small farmers and heritage breeds; your sob story falls on deaf ears here. You have a distinct advantage over most farmers: you are a price taker on only one end of your business model, not both. You have the ability to price set on your product sales. If you can't/don't do that in such a way that keeps you in business... oh well.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

haypoint said:


> Most things in life are not based on our individual intent. We are a nation of laws.
> *so no freedom*
> 
> Shouldn't I be able to drive above the speed limit, since I've never been in an accident?
> ...


*weather or not the margin is low isn't the issue, it is our freedom to choose. and that the government is trying to criminalizes everyone to keep them afraid that they will be coming for them next. good way to control. that is why so many laws are vague in their wording.

lets out law wine again. since some will drink to much..... *


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

olivehill said:


> If you can't afford a $40 tattoo gun and $15 bottle of ink you're doing it wrong. Like I said, if you don't have intent to profit you're delivering your own blow to other small farmers and heritage breeds; your sob story falls on deaf ears here. You have a distinct advantage over most farmers: you are a price taker on only one end of your business model, not both. You have the ability to price set on your product sales. If you can't/don't do that in such a way that keeps you in business... oh well.


I thought your idea of ID was the NAIS. We notch ears and tattoo. How will that help the DNR with the wild boar though is what I am apparently not understanding? And I guess we have a different idea of profit too. While I don't profit monetarily, I feed my family, not just my household, and I am home with my kids. 
Why are you mad at me anyway, I said I agreed with you?


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

tailwagging said:


> *weather or not the margin is low isn't the issue, it is our freedom to choose. and that the government is try to criminalizes everyone to keep them afraid that they will be coming for them next. good why to control. that is why so many laws are vague in their wording.
> 
> let out law wine again. since some will drink to much..... *


This...


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

Maverick_mg said:


> I thought your idea of ID was the NAIS. We notch ears and tattoo. How will that help the DNR with the wild boar though is what I am apparently not understanding? And I guess we have a different idea of profit too. While I don't profit monetarily, I feed my family, not just my household, and I am home with my kids.
> Why are you mad at me anyway, I said I agreed with you?


Why do you think I'm mad at you? I was honest with you, if that's what you mean. Why? Because I see no point in sugar coating. 

Read the post again and it'll answer your questions.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Maverick_mg said:


> I thought your idea of ID was the NAIS. We notch ears and tattoo. How will that help the DNR with the wild boar though is what I am apparently not understanding?


if someone's hog gets out they know who to fine. so the ones who don't control their hogs will get punished, not one who keep them in.


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

I still have a hard time seeing the benefit to adding russian into a "heritage" breed.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

...they have great hats...


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## Dragonid (Mar 6, 2012)

haypoint said:


> If his goal is really what he says it is, what's the reason to add a regressive breed to the mix?





blaineiac said:


> I still have a hard time seeing the benefit to adding russian into a "heritage" breed.


The above questions are a major crux dividing many of the people reading/commenting on this issue. There is a presumption that wildtype breeds are "regressive" or somehow inherently inferior because they possess qualities not seen in the most modern domesticated breeds. That is merely an opinion. Popular opinions change and differ. It is not a suitable basis for declaring them illegal. The Bakers have chefs as clients, and indirectly hundreds or thousands of fine dining consumers, who are of the opinion that the meat has desireable culinary qualities.

Feral animals (regardless of species) are a destructive nuisance. Animals in confinement, whether that be a fence or the walls of a building, on private property, are not feral, and should inherently be none of the DNRs business. They are private property. If livestock becomes feral, it doesn't matter what breed it was.

If I bred a thousand German shepherds and let them loose, there would be packs of destructive dangerous feral dogs. The solution to that problem is not to order the destruction of all dogs in the state, or go door to door destroying all German shepherds and dogs that might be a mix of the breed. Eliminate the feral problem animals, and prevent people from setting more loose. Positive and negative incentives may be necessary, bounties for kills and fines for poor management. The same applies to livestock, swine or otherwise. 

Banning a species or breed for the entire state because someone somewhere was irresponsible, is like removing a splinter from your thumb by chopping off your hand.


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

Dragonid said:


> The above questions are a major crux dividing many of the people reading/commenting on this issue. There is a presumption that wildtype breeds are "regressive" or somehow inherently inferior because they possess qualities not seen in the most modern domesticated breeds. That is merely an opinion. Popular opinions change and differ. It is not a suitable basis for declaring them illegal. The Bakers have chefs as clients, and indirectly hundreds or thousands of fine dining consumers, who are of the opinion that the meat has desireable culinary qualities.
> 
> Feral animals (regardless of species) are a destructive nuisance. Animals in confinement, whether that be a fence or the walls of a building, on private property, are not feral, and should inherently be none of the DNRs business. They are private property. If livestock becomes feral, it doesn't matter what breed it was.
> 
> ...



I want to thank you for the first real answer to this. With all the other reasons... No wonder this legislation got through the cracks. Thanks for the clarification. I still think once he gets his phenotype right with larger litters, I see them being listed as $500 Pure Mangs.


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

Gailann Schrader said:


> don't wanna *catch* 'em. Necessarily. I'm pretty skilled with a rifle, actually...
> 
> Wanna get a mobile processing plant, set up shop near the damage, kill 'em, process and distribute the meat to needy's and I want the govt. to underwrite it.
> 
> ...



Why do you want the governmint to *underwrite* it?


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

olivehill said:


> I just must say.... BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


When heritage pigs are outlawed, only outlaws will have heritage pigs


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

we ARE the government
if the "government" already wrote a declaratory ruling, they're already involved
free meat instead of food stamps (meat coupons)
i personally like the government to do good things (as opposed to this silly declaratory)


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

Gailann Schrader said:


> we ARE the government
> if the "government" already wrote a declaratory ruling, they're already involved
> free meat instead of food stamps (meat coupons)
> i personally like the government to do good things (as opposed to this silly declaratory)


*Definition of UNDERWRITE
transitive verb
1
: to write under or at the end of something else 
2
: to set one's name to (an insurance policy) for the purpose of thereby becoming answerable for a designated loss or damage on consideration of receiving a premium percent : insure on life or property; also : to assume liability for (a sum or risk) as an insurer 
3
: to subscribe to : agree to 
4
a : to agree to purchase (as security issue) usually on a fixed date at a fixed price with a view to public distribution 
b : to guarantee financial support of <underwrite a project>*

So a bounty on feral hogs? Say $100/per feral hog?

To me, the word _underwrite_ implies that the government is going to foot the bill for something, successful or not.

I would agree on the bounty, not the underwriting.



note: the State of Maryland is offering a $200 gift card for each snakehead (_Channa argus_) caught in Maryland waters.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

I'm well aware of the definition of "underwrite."

Yes, I want the government to underwrite this bounty. Who's gonna pay it if not for us? This could be USA-wide instead of just Michiganders trying to mandate vague policies through a declaratory statement.

I just made a declaratory statement - none of the USA feral pigs are capable of reading it.

If we make this USA-wide instead of letting each state declare some kind of ridiculous statement, perhaps we, AS ONE ENTITY, could get this under control.

It's never gonna happen, of course, but that would be my dream.

So, you support a bounty. Who the H is gonna pay that bounty? Some mythical creature that lives on a mountain? No, the GOVERNMENT of MICHIGAN is going to have to fund this. The Michigan DNR is FUNDED by a GOVERNMENT - Michigan's - and then is connected to all the rest of the DNR's throughout the USA. That's the way it works. 

Again, the CAFO folks are doing some, if not all, the ramrodding on this. Disease-prevention, blah blah blah. What do the CAFO folks think working with this "ban" is going to do? Certainly not improving the life of the folks home-raising animals for profit/food if it means destroying their animals. That doesn't even vaguely change the fact that the ferals are out there. Is it to protect THEIR pork? Sure. But not from "disease-ridden guerilla feral pigs comin' to have their way with their wimmen-hogs." 

...How do I know PETA isn't setting loose CAFOs and or CAFO babies to let them "run free with the butterflies?" They've done it to mink and other species in the past with stupid and horrible consequences... 

Besides, if the animals are CAFO'd from start to finish, why do they even bother? Their pigs are never gonna be affected (note how I used the correct word there). No. It's about limiting pork and who gets to raise it. The logic is pretty sound if you set aside everything else. 

Feral pigs? Problem. Destroying FENCED, MANAGED ANIMALS? Ridiculous. Having the CAFO folks say those fenced, managed animals are a menace to society? Equally ridiculous. How do those ferals sneak in and mate/infect CAFOs? Um, I don't know. I can't fathom it. Evidently, the CAFO's fences aren't very good.


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

Gailann Schrader said:


> I'm well aware of the definition of "underwrite."
> 
> Yes, I want the government to underwrite this bounty. Who's gonna pay it if not for us? This could be USA-wide instead of just Michiganders trying to mandate vague policies through a declaratory statement.
> 
> ...


Then I apologize for the question.

To me, *underwriting* would be paying for the time ($x/hr/person), the bullets and the gas. In other words, creating a bunch of government funded jobs that may or may not work. That is what would happen if it was a 'national' program, just another bureaucracy that would continue to grow.

The bounty could be paid by the state (see the example I gave regarding Maryland). A 500K in bounties would go a long way...... (and not take much from anything else).

You are correct, groups like PeTA could really throw a monkey wrench in things, as they had done at MSU several years ago.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

...underwriting means paying the wages and such of DNR personnel to come out and kill your law-abiding animals...


I'm not sure where else declares that they can come out and kill your properly fenced, properly cared-for animals. I don't care what species - dog, hog, horse, cat, whatever... Seems pretty knotheaded to me... 

And invasive. To twist the declaratory statement...


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Some people don't know a lot about history.
The U.S. govt has gone out and killed quite a few people's livestock.
Cattle were killed before. People were told to pen up their cattle and govt. workers came around and killed them.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Dragonid said:


> The above questions are a major crux dividing many of the people reading/commenting on this issue. There is a presumption that wildtype breeds are "regressive" or somehow inherently inferior because they possess qualities not seen in the most modern domesticated breeds. That is merely an opinion. Popular opinions change and differ. It is not a suitable basis for declaring them illegal. The Bakers have chefs as clients, and indirectly hundreds or thousands of fine dining consumers, who are of the opinion that the meat has desireable culinary qualities.
> 
> Feral animals (regardless of species) are a destructive nuisance. Animals in confinement, whether that be a fence or the walls of a building, on private property, are not feral, and should inherently be none of the DNRs business. They are private property. If livestock becomes feral, it doesn't matter what breed it was.
> 
> ...


Letâs use your example, but use it in the context of what has happened in Michigan. Letâs say German Shepherds roam wild in the southern states and carry Leptosparosis. Over the past ten years, people have been bringing them to Michigan Pet Shops. The Pet Shops seem to be making money selling these imported German Shepherds. But about half escape from the Pet Stores and form packs that are doing damage in various neighborhoods. Two hundred people see the market for German Shepherds and start breeding them for the Pet Stores. The Animal Control Officer canât keep up with German Shepherd strays and bite cases. While Wild Boar do damage by destroying crops and wetlands, German Shepherds begin biting people. It is clear that more and more communities have packs of German Shepherds, while now most Pet Stores have many escaping German Shepherds and the Breeders are also losing dogs. 

Because there are a thousand loose German Shepherds roaming loose, attacking other dogs and people, spreading disease everywhere, the government stops the importing of German Shepherds until they can get a handle on this problem. Pet Stores agree to sell what they have and then stop selling German Shepherds. Most of the German Shepherd breeders sell what they have, stop breeding more German Shepherds and begin raising Snooker doodles.

But one guy wants to keep his German Shepherd male to breed to his Shiloh Shepherds. While Shiloh Shepherds havenât the propensity to escape, the mixed breed dogs do. Therefore German Shepherd mix breeds are also not allowed. This guy, like most of the other 200 German Shepherd breeders, claim that none have escaped, while roving packs of German Shepherds are seen nearby nearly every breeding operation. Inspections of breeding operations show poor kennel construction with obvious signs of escape.

Would it be easier to grasp if we used Asian Flying Carp in our make believe example?? 

âIf livestock becomes feral, it doesn't matter what breed it was.â Well, yes it does. Some breeds are easier to keep penned up and some return to the feed trough. Some wild types, head for the woods, never to return. These pigs have demonstrated a willingness to escape and return to their former wild state. The hogs on wild Hog Breeding Farms were not the business of the DNR until so many were escaping that they became a damaging force. To focus on the hogs that have returned to the wild and allow farmers to continuing to fuel this invasive explosion is foolish. One cannot limit the wild hog numbers until a major contributor to the problem is stopped.
As you said, âand prevent people from setting more loose.â So far, âbest intentionsâ has been a gigantic failure. 

âBanning a species or breed for the entire state because someone somewhere was irresponsibleâ We are not talking about an isolated event. This is a widespread problem. I think less than 10 places were keeping their Wild Hogs inside of fences, all the rest, over a hundred, were letting them escape into other peopleâs property. They are wary, often times becoming nocturnal. Bounty isnât going to get much result. Fines only work when you can identify ownership. Eliminating the source seems reasonable.

âis like removing a splinter from your thumb by chopping off your hand.â No, but doing it your way is like waiting to remove the splinter as the finger falls out, then remove the hand when that falls off. At some point, you have to get ahead of the infection and then work on the healing.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Shiloh Shepherds are German Shepherds.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Haypoint. I had a rather long reply written but decided for this:


What dog do you have in this hunt?

These people have their livelihood. I have my food for my table.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> Shiloh Shepherds are German Shepherds.


What is a Shiloh Shepherd (1990)

Eurasian Wild Hogs are pigs, hence my example.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Gailann Schrader said:


> Haypoint. I had a rather long reply written but decided for this:
> 
> 
> What dog do you have in this hunt?
> ...


I own land in this great state. I don't want the forests destroyed due to this invasive pest. I don't want wildlife habitat destroyed by these wary creatures. I don't want my crops rooted up by groups of Russian Wild hogs.

I have seen the damage they do. I have seen the careless way many (most?) of the breeders approached security. I understand how much effort my ancestors went through to get psudorabies eradicated and cannot accept that this work is about to be undone by the careless importation of infected wild swine. I know that a psudorabies outbreak will doom many small pig farmers. 

I'm not going to jump on the band wagon that this has anything to do with putting small farmers out of business. I get so tired of people fanning the flames of distrust of Big Ag or Big Government on every issue of the day. To be quite honest, I don't believe Big Ag cares what you and I do on our small farms. The government doesn't care about most of us either. 

DNR is trying to get rid of something that the State should have stopped before it got started.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Gailann Schrader said:


> ...underwriting means paying the wages and such of DNR personnel to come out and kill your law-abiding animals...
> 
> 
> I'm not sure where else declares that they can come out and kill your properly fenced, properly cared-for animals. I don't care what species - dog, hog, horse, cat, whatever... Seems pretty knotheaded to me...
> ...


In the published Grand Rapids Newspaper article, the DNR stated that they do not expect to kill any one's hogs, they expected the Hunt Clubs and Wild Hog breeding farms to eradicate them on their own.

There was a case a few years back where a guy was raising deer (200 on 120 acres) for Hunt Club hunts. He refused MDA TB testing for 12 years. One "hunter" discovered TB in a deer he shot. So, several deer were tested for TB, found positive. Sharpshooters shot 200 deer and the owner was paid over $100,000 for his deer. 

From that, I know that this guy will be compensated for his Eurasian Boar and the half breeds he has refused to sell or shoot.


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

If you watch to Mark Baker's videos, he indicates that he raises his pigs for specialty restaurants and people who want a different kind of pork than the homogenous feedlot pork available in every chain supermarket. He also compares the number of deer (which number over a million) shot last hunting season-meaning there were a lot of hunters doing a lot of hunting in Michigan and the number of feral pigs shot while all of this hunting was going on which was about 45. So if there were only 45 feral pigs taken, how has this become such a huge issue if it isn't simply big ag wanting to cut alternative breeds out of the market?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

April 10, 2012

Contact: Ed Golder, 517-335-3014

Michigan Department of Natural Resources files suit against hunting ranch


On Tuesday, April 10, 2012, the Michigan Department of Natural Resources filed a civil complaint against Ronald McKendrick and Charlene McKendrick, who own and operate the Renegade Ranch Hunting Preserve in Cheboygan County. The McKendricks are being sued for violations of Michigan&#8217;s Invasive Species Act, which outlaws certain types of swine.

The complaint, brought in Cheboygan County Circuit Court, asks the court to require the McKendricks to comply with the state&#8217;s Invasive Species Act and to remove prohibited swine from their property.

The court action is part of the DNR&#8217;s enforcement of a December 2010 Invasive Species Order that declares certain types of swine illegal. The order addresses the significant threat posed by invasive swine to agriculture and the environment in Michigan. The prohibited animals carry diseases that can devastate domestic livestock. Also, the swine engage in behaviors &#8211; rooting and wallowing &#8211; that damage soils, crops and waters.

The Invasive Species Order applies to wild boar, wild hog, wild swine, feral pig, feral hog, feral swine, Old world swine, razorback, eurasian wild boar, Russian wild boar (Sus scrofa Linnaeus). The order does not apply to domestic swine, Sus domestica, in domestic hog production. A December 2011 declaratory ruling from the DNR defines the physical characteristics used to identify prohibited swine.

The Invasive Species Order went into effect Oct. 8, 2011. However, to give those in possession of prohibited swine every opportunity to come into compliance with the law, the DNR delayed enforcement of the order for an additional six months, until April 1, 2012. Last year, the DNR contacted people believed to have prohibited swine to inform them about the timeline for enforcement.

Those facilities, farms or individuals still in possession of prohibited swine are in violation of the law and could face criminal or civil penalties under Part 413 of the state&#8217;s Natural Resources and Environmental Protection Act. Part 413, a section titled &#8220;Transgenic and Non-Native Organisms,&#8221; is commonly known as the Invasive Species Act.

&#8220;In implementing this order for the protection of Michigan&#8217;s environment and economy, the department has sought to work cooperatively with property owners wherever it can,&#8221; said DNR Director Rodney Stokes. &#8220;For that reason, enforcement actions thus far have involved voluntary compliance inspections. Where prohibited swine continue to be held, property owners must come into compliance with the law.&#8221; 

Pursuant to enforcement of the Invasive Species Order, DNR officials on April 3, 2012, visited the Renegade Ranch. The ranch has in the past been known to possess swine that are prohibited under the order. DNR officials asked permission to inspect the facility for prohibited animals. Ronald McKendrick denied the DNR access.

In conjunction with the visit, DNR officials received information to suggest there are prohibited swine on the McKendricks&#8217; property.

The complaint against the McKendricks seeks court-imposed fines for possession of a prohibited species and the sale or offering for sale of a prohibited species. The complaint asks the court to compel the McKendricks to depopulate remaining prohibited swine. In addition, the complaint seeks recovery of costs to the state for preventing or minimizing damages to natural resources caused by the prohibited species. Civil fines for violating the cited sections of the Invasive Species Act range from $1,000 to $20,000 per violation.

More information about the Invasive Species Order and the problem of invasive swine in Michigan and across the country can be found at DNR Feral Swine Redirect.

The Michigan Department of Natural Resources is committed to the conservation, protection, management, use and enjoyment of the state's natural and cultural resources for current and future generations. For more information, go to DNR - Department of Natural Resources.


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

This is an email I got from the ALBC 

Thanks for your concern and for thinking of ALBC. We have been
corresponding with ALBC members in Michigan about this troubling regulation.
We have also contacted the Department of Natural Resources in Michigan and
offered our expertise in identifying and defining the differences between
domestic and feral livestock.
In Michigan, as you are aware, it has sparked several lawsuits, a great deal
of media attention, and letters from legislators to the DNR on behalf of
their farming constituents.

We have been informed that you can email DNR, describe their farm operation
& pigs, and request an exemption from the regulation. Emails should be sent
to Shannon Hanna: [email protected].

Thanks again for your concern and feel free to write back any time.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

April 4, 2012

Contact: Ed Golder, 517-335-3014


State enters next phase in protecting environment, farms from invasive swine

On Sunday, April 1, the Michigan Department of Natural Resources began active enforcement of an Invasive Species Order declaring certain types of swine illegal in Michigan.

As part of that effort on Tuesday, April 3 the department&#8217;s Law Enforcement Division conducted inspections of six properties that in the past may have had prohibited swine. The inspections were conducted with permission of the landowners. Each of the properties was found to be free of prohibited swine and therefore in compliance with the Invasive Species Order.

Those facilities, farms or individuals still in possession of prohibited swine are in violation of the law and could face criminal or civil penalties under Part 413 of the state&#8217;s Natural Resources and Environmental Protection Act.

&#8220;Our intent from the beginning of this Invasive Species Order has been to enforce the law while minimizing the impact on individuals and livelihoods,&#8221; said Department of Natural Resources Director Rodney Stokes. &#8220;For that reason, we provided additional time and assistance for ranch owners, breeders and others to remove prohibited animals from their properties prior to the April 1 enforcement deadline. The additional time allowed property owners to adjust their business plans to minimize economic hardship. We will continue to work cooperatively with property owners where we can.&#8221;

Sus scrofa Linnaeus, the scientific name for the prohibited animals, can pose a significant threat to the environment and to domestic pork production. The animals have been known to carry several diseases and parasites, including hog cholera (classic swine fever), pseudorabies, brucellosis, tuberculosis, salmonellosis, anthrax, ticks, fleas, lice and various worms. When released into the wild, the animals are highly mobile, making it easy for them to spread disease quickly in Michigan's wildlife and domestic livestock populations. One sow can produce two litters of four to six piglets in a year&#8217;s time, increasing the threat.

The swine engage in two types of behavior that damage soils, crops and water -- rooting and wallowing. Their rooting behavior, during which they dig for food below the soil surface, causes erosion, damages lawns and farm lands, and weakens plants and native vegetation. Wallowing behavior, during which swine seek out areas of shallow water to roll in mud, increases turbidity in ponds and streams and increases erosion along stream banks, which affects water quality.

The DNR in December 2010 issued an Invasive Species Order outlawing certain types of swine in Michigan. The order went into effect Oct. 8, 2011. In order to give those in possession of prohibited swine every opportunity to come into compliance with the law, Director Stokes delayed enforcement of the order for an additional six months, until April 1, 2012.

In the absence any other regulations for the swine, the DNR is moving ahead with the next phase of implementation of the Invasive Species Order. A declaratory ruling from the DNR, issued Dec. 13, 2011, lists the specific physical characteristics the DNR will use to determine if particular swine are prohibited. Those characteristics are:

Bristle-tip coloration: Sus scrofa exhibit bristle tips that are lighter in color (e.g., white,
cream, or buff) than the rest of the hair shaft. This expression is most frequently
observed across the dorsal portion and sides of the snout/face, and on the back and
sides of the animal&#8217;s body.

Dark &#8220;point&#8221; coloration: Sus scrofa exhibit &#8220;points&#8221; (i.e., distal portions of the snout,
ears, legs, and tail) that are dark brown to black in coloration, and lack light-colored tips
on the bristles.

Coat coloration: Sus scrofa exhibit a number of coat coloration patterns. Patterns most
frequently observed among wild/feral/hybrid types are: wild/grizzled; solid black; solid
red/brown; black and white spotted; black and red/brown spotted.

Underfur: Sus scrofa exhibit the presence of underfur that is lighter in color (e.g.,
smoke gray to brown) than the overlying dark brown to black bristles/guard hairs.

Juvenile coat pattern: Juvenile Sus scrofa exhibit striped coat patterns. This consists of
a light grayish-tan to brown base coat, with a dark brown to black spinal stripe and three
to four brown irregular longitudinal stripes with dark margins along the length of the
body.

Skeletal appearance: Sus scrofa skeletal structure is distinct. Structures include skull
morphology, dorsal profile, and external body measurements including tail length, head-body length, hind foot length, ear length, snout length, and shoulder height.

Tail structure: Sus scrofa exhibit straight tails. They contain the muscular structure to
curl their tails if needed, but the tails are typically held straight. Hybrids of Sus scrofa
exhibit either curly or straight tail structure.

Ear structure: Sus scrofa exhibit erect ear structure. Hybrids of Sus scrofa exhibit either erect or folded/floppy ear structure.

More information about the Invasive Species Order and the problem of invasive swine in Michigan and across the country can be found at DNR Feral Swine Redirect.

The Michigan Department of Natural Resources is committed to the conservation, protection, management, use and enjoyment of the state's natural and cultural resources for current and future generations. For more information, go to DNR - Department of Natural Resources.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Astrid said:


> If you watch to Mark Baker's videos, he indicates that he raises his pigs for specialty restaurants and people who want a different kind of pork than the homogenous feedlot pork available in every chain supermarket. He also compares the number of deer (which number over a million) shot last hunting season-meaning there were a lot of hunters doing a lot of hunting in Michigan and the number of feral pigs shot while all of this hunting was going on which was about 45. So if there were only 45 feral pigs taken, how has this become such a huge issue if it isn't simply big ag wanting to cut alternative breeds out of the market?


If you only look at the number of Wild Hogs shot last year as an indication of the whole population, I can see why someone would believe it isn't a problem.

However, Wild Hogs are very wary and generally become nocturnal. People that didn't think they had Wild Hogs were surprised when motion sensing night vision cameras showed groups of Wild Hogs on their property.

Mark is lying when he says Michigan hunters shot over a million deer. There were fewer than 500,000 deer shot in Michigan. Look it up.

This has nothing to do with the tiny market share that heritage breeds make. Mark doesn't need a Eurasian Boar to breed his heritage sows to hoodwink a gourmet chef into buying his hogs.

This has everything to do with farmers not wanting to have a disease sweep through the state, effectively putting them out of business. It has everything to do with farmers that do not want to lose crop production to this invasive speices, brought here by unthinking Hunt Club promoters. It has everything to do with the people that enjoy the beautiful lakes, ponds, streams, forests and meadows. They see no need for this distructive beast to exist in the wild. But most importantly, it has everything to do with the two hundred breeders and buyers of imported Wild Hogs (Russian Wild Hogs, Eurasian, Razorback, etc) that overall did a poor job keeping those wild hogs inside their fences, creating this mess that will be difficult to undo.


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## Beowulf (Aug 27, 2010)

haypoint said:


> If you only look at the number of Wild Hogs shot last year as an indication of the whole population, I can see why someone would believe it isn't a problem.
> 
> However, Wild Hogs are very wary and generally become nocturnal. People that didn't think they had Wild Hogs were surprised when motion sensing night vision cameras showed groups of Wild Hogs on their property.
> 
> ...


Bolds are mine for emphasis. 

I think everyone would agree with that point whole-heartedly. Baker has himself stated repeatedly that his pigs outside of his fence is a bad thing if for no other reason than it's money lost. The dispute comes with the DNR's chosen method, which does nothing about the pigs in the wild.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

"This has nothing to do with the tiny market share that heritage breeds make. Mark doesn't need a Eurasian Boar to breed his heritage sows to hoodwink a gourmet chef into buying his hogs."


I think you're gonna find a "tiny market share" for morel mushrooms too... and I don't really think he's trying to hoodwink anyone. Where ever did you get that notion?

I believe Mark breeds to Eurasian Boars to increase his litter size. I don't think he's trying to hide that.

Again, the issue is that HIS animals are properly fenced and maintained - no matter what breed and/or color or race they are... 

You've still to address why any government entity can come and kill properly fenced and maintained animals on your own farm.

Sure, hoof and mouth disease. Sure. These don't have that. Do they have other communicable diseases? Like pseudorabies? I'll ask them. 

Living in the Great State of Indiana? I love the wilds, the woods, the animals we have here. 

If I had wild hogs on my property? I'd be looking to make them dead hogs. Not shrieking that my neighbor has fenced, maintained, properly processed hogs and I want them killed immediately.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Beowulf said:


> Bolds are mine for emphasis.
> 
> I know you read my post as far as the part you put in bold letters, but did you forget to read the following sentence? I think that explains it.
> 
> I think everyone would agree with that point whole-heartedly. Baker has himself stated repeatedly that his pigs outside of his fence is a bad thing if for no other reason than it's money lost. The dispute comes with the DNR's chosen method, which does nothing about the pigs in the wild.


DNR is doing everything in their power to eliminate Wild Hogs (Russian Wild Hogs, Eurasian wild Hogs, Razorbacks, etc) from the wild. So far they have been fairly ineffective. Seems they are difficult to hunt.

But while they take on that task, it makes no sense to allow people like Baker to contune to breed them. This even easier to understand when you understand what a poor job they have done so far containing this invasive breed.

This is a dual attempt to limit wild hogs from Michigan's public and private land. It involves killing the ones that have escaped and formed breeding populations. But it also includes stoping the source of these hundreds (perhaps thousands) of wild hogs.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Gailann Schrader said:


> "This has nothing to do with the tiny market share that heritage breeds make. Mark doesn't need a Eurasian Boar to breed his heritage sows to hoodwink a gourmet chef into buying his hogs."
> 
> 
> I think you're gonna find a "tiny market share" for morel mushrooms too... and I don't really think he's trying to hoodwink anyone. Where ever did you get that notion?
> ...


I've been around long enough to see unique marketing ploys used to create something special that really isn't so special. For awhile it was beefalo. The American Angus has given themselves a marketing bump. If Baker has convinced that his heritage breed tastes better, good for him. We had someone on HT feed her hogs a special diet and the resulting pork was to die for. Maybe, maybe not. That is what marketing is all about. But to believe that this specialty market is of any concern to Big Ag is just silly. 

Please show me where Baker said he was using an Eurasian Boar to increase litter size. I'd also need to see the documentation that crossing his heritage sows to another heritage breed wouldn't do the same thing?

If "if"s and "but"s were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas. You don't have Wild Hogs. You don't know how difficult they are to eradicate.

I think, if truth be told, Baker has had hogs escape. Most of the Wild Hog breeders have lost large percentages of their Wild Hogs. Hard to believe he is the exception that stands as stark contrast to the others.


He was informed last year that they were considered an invasive specis and he has had plenty of time to market them and get going on a new cross for his heritage sows. He chose to keep his Eurasian Boar and the resulting cross breeds.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Why even try to talk with you highpoint?
you didn't even watch his video clips or you would know that his sows are Russian.
michigan DNR vs SMALL HOG FARM part3 - YouTube


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> Why even try to talk with you highpoint?
> you didn't even watch his video clips or you would know that his sows are Russian.
> michigan DNR vs SMALL HOG FARM part3 - YouTube


Eurasian, Russian, Razorback, etc. Makes no difference to me. They have been declaired invasive. 

MDA and MSU Extension have been helping promote Small Farms, Farmers Markets and have recently developed a Cottage Food Law that makes it easier to market foods produced at home in uninspected home kitchens. Michigan government is promoting small farms. Just not those that are breeding wild hogs that have escaped all over the state and are now establishing breeding populations.

The Michigan DNR has been able to tromp onto your property for decades. That is how they catch poachers and other hunting violations.

He might as well give it up. If he is able to hold onto the least Wild Hog looking pigs, they will squash him with regulations and fines. Not what I'd like to see, but that's the reality of it.

In the mean time, send him your money, lots of it.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Latest news:
Ag. Commission To Explore Swine Policies

The Department of Natural Resources could see some guidance from the Commission of Agriculture and Rural Development on implementing and enforcing its invasive species order against certain types of pigs, and commissioners said they hoped that advice would come before any harm befell DNR officials.
Commissioner Donald Coe (I-Traverse City) and Diane Hanson (I-Cornell) both said they had received calls from farmers who raised pigs that they felt could fall under the order, and who indicated they might use force to protect their operations.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

looks like your donations to Baker aren't going to hire a Lawyer, looks like he, and others, are planning on buying ammunition.

Should be an interesting summer. While the Blacks are shooting Pigs in Sanford, Florida, Michigan DNR will be shooting Pigs in Michigan.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

*sigh*
what I was pointing out was it is his sows. not the boar. you can easily replace a male but females that are good mothers are valuable. can't have a breeding program without females.

So you feel it is right to be punished when you are innocent?

not to long ago the Amish fought the law that their kids* had* to go to high school. they won.
why?
not really because of religion but because the law changed to make something they believed, illegal that wasn't before. now they can choose if they want them to stop at the 8th grade or continue on to high school. some do and some don't.
so yes laws can be fought.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

haypoint said:


> Latest news:
> Ag. Commission To Explore Swine Policies
> 
> The Department of Natural Resources could see some guidance from the Commission of Agriculture and Rural Development on implementing and enforcing its invasive species order against certain types of pigs, and commissioners said they hoped that advice would come before any harm befell DNR officials.
> Commissioner Donald Coe (I-Traverse City) and Diane Hanson (I-Cornell) both said they had received calls from farmers who raised pigs that they felt could fall under the order, and who indicated they *might *use force to protect their operations.



AHHH the word to look at is MIGHT. 
I can't blame them for being riled up. there are ways to work this out without shooting their pigs or forcing them to get red of them.


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## Beowulf (Aug 27, 2010)

haypoint said:


> looks like your donations to Baker aren't going to hire a Lawyer, looks like he, and others, are planning on buying ammunition.
> 
> Should be an interesting summer. While the Blacks are shooting Pigs in Sanford, Florida, Michigan DNR will be shooting Pigs in Michigan.



You just keep piling on baseless speculation on top of bull-----. I may be naive to take a man at his word after following up on his citations, but at least the hot air coming out of my mouth isn't the same as the hot air coming out of my ass...


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

I asked the Baker's the question we wanted to know: 

specifically this: "Can you tell me, have your hogs been tested? Do they have pseudorabies or any other hog-to-hog communicable disease?"

Here is Jill's answer I received last night:

*Our pigs go through a USDA shop, so they are inspected by a USDA inspector prior to and after the kill. All of our pigs have been disease free. This is the same process any other breed of hog raised for slaughter goes through. These hogs (Mangalitsa and Boars, both, along with most other heritage breeds) are more disease resistant than the hybrid white hog house pigs, so are less likely to have communicable diseases. 

An additional point is that, by law, a hog being sent to slaughter can cross state lines with no testing at all. The argument that the hog barns will not be able to ship hogs to market because of pseudorabies, etc. is not true. Only hogs being relocated (such as piglets for feeding) must be tested. In MI, the pigs going into hog houses come from within the state and therefore would also not be affected. Just to dispel some of the misinformation out there.

I did answer, I think, that last question you had that I haven't had a chance to get back to you on. I am glad people are asking you questions and you're able to get the answers. We're running into a lot of deliberate misinformation and appreciate the chance to set things straight.
Jill*


Interesting. I had no idea that HOGS SENT TO SLAUGHTER can cross state lines with no testing at all. Fascinating...


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## Dragonid (Mar 6, 2012)

haypoint said:


> I think, if truth be told, Baker has had hogs escape. Most of the Wild Hog breeders have lost large percentages of their Wild Hogs. Hard to believe he is the exception that stands as stark contrast to the others.


Considering that he has only one, his boar, I think he'd notice, and probably goes out of his way to keep it contained. His sows are more numerous, but are a heritage breed, and are no more or less likely to flee into the wild as any other domesticated breed.


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

I thought he used a Mang boar over his russian sows?


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## Beowulf (Aug 27, 2010)

blaineiac said:


> I thought he used a Mang boar over his russian sows?


He does, but since I have no proof to the contrary, and as he has said "Pigs outside the fence are money lost." I'll take him at his word that he isn't allowing pigs to escape, rather than assuming that he's lying.


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

That's what I thought. I was talking about Dragon saying that he only has one russian boar.

I'm from OH and we are in the middle of passing exotic animal laws based upon the fact that you could release them and pose a danger. All because some ex con who was fed up with reality, releases tigers, bears, wolves, numerous monkeys, ect. and then commited suicide. They are working to word it so there is a threat that a person could release them purposly. This seems like the same thing here.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

blaineiac said:


> That's what I thought. I was talking about Dragon saying that he only has one russian boar.
> 
> I'm from OH and we are in the middle of passing exotic animal laws based upon the fact that you could release them and pose a danger. All because some ex con who was fed up with reality, releases tigers, bears, wolves, numerous monkeys, ect. and then commited suicide. They are working to word it so there is a threat that a person could release them purposly. This seems like the same thing here.


I myself wounder if he really did release them or was it a set up and murder by ARs to get the law passed.

like why were the cages were cut open and not just open the doors.....
why were there chicken spread around the body?


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## Kazahleenah (Nov 3, 2004)

Gailann Schrader said:


> You've still to address why any government entity can come and kill properly fenced and maintained animals on your own farm.
> 
> 
> 
> If I had wild hogs on my property? I'd be looking to make them dead hogs. Not shrieking that my neighbor has fenced, maintained, properly processed hogs and I want them killed immediately.


:goodjob::goodjob:

This is how most of us feel.


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## Kazahleenah (Nov 3, 2004)

haypoint said:


> If you don't want to rely on rumors, get the straight scoop by calling directly to the DNR Wildlife Division at 517-373-1263.



Did that. They say that they aren't "planning" on comming to farms etc and killing off (or fining the people for) Heritage breeds, that they are after a specific hog.


Then, I asked, why wasn't that specific hog clearly defined in writing? 

They had no answer. Now, I learned MANY years ago, that the written word holds ALL the power over the spoken word. Do I believe them that they wrote this "vauge description" without ever intending to use it at their whim? Nope. Do I take the word of 3 DNR officers that I have discussed this with over that written law? NOPE.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

haypoint said:


> Latest news:
> Ag. Commission To Explore Swine Policies
> 
> The Department of Natural Resources could see some guidance from the Commission of Agriculture and Rural Development on implementing and enforcing its invasive species order against certain types of pigs, and commissioners said they hoped that advice would come before any harm befell DNR officials.
> Commissioner Donald Coe (I-Traverse City) and Diane Hanson (I-Cornell) both said they had received calls from farmers who raised pigs that they felt could fall under the order, and who indicated they might use force to protect their operations.


that's the way the law was written originally,Recommendations where to be made by commission. two of which where the DNR and MDA. Gov.Granholm effectively over hauled the law striking the commission and granting all powers to the DNR.

I do not think that Law would have passed had if it had been set up that way in the beginning. Doing so after the fact changes the whole nature of the original. I don't know if it could be challenged on that merit alone though.

its not right that such a thing can be done, I think it was actually a Blatant over step by the Gov.! Intent of the original Law as written needs to be addressed as well as intent of the cited powers of the gov in this action.
in essence she rewrote the law by striking that one part,which is a fundamentally making law,which the Gov is not vested to do. that falls to the legislature.

Transfer of Powers and Duties of Invasive Species Advisory Council to Department of Natural Resources by Type III Transfer; Abolishment of Invasive Species Advisory Council - Mich. Comp. Laws Section 324.99910 - Michigan Attorney Resources - Michigan

This is why many are so wary of poorly or broadly written laws and regulations. the other problem is no two enforcement agents nor agencys interpretation of any one law coincide.

by the way, I often call agency's including the DNR to clarify there position and understanding of the Law. You might give it a go some time it may enlighten you to how clueless our enforcers can be sometimes. pick any thing you like and call three different offices.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

baker update

some are raided on Saturday (I think that is a weekend day, right?)

Bakers Green Acres


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Gailann Schrader said:


> I asked the Baker's the question we wanted to know:
> 
> specifically this: "Can you tell me, have your hogs been tested? Do they have pseudorabies or any other hog-to-hog communicable disease?"
> 
> ...


But Jill did not answer your question.

She simply responded in a way that made it sound like their pigs are tested for psudorabies. âAre your pigs that you brought into a Slaughter Facility tested for psudorabies?â would be a good question. You could ask is another way, â Have your pigs ever been tested for psudorabies?â or â Before you imported (relocated) your Russian Wild Hogs, did you get Interstate Health Certificates?â and â Did they/you/anyone test for psudorabies?â

You could get a bit more specific, so you would know what she said was what you think she means. Ask, â When you say that piglets for feeding *must* be tested, can you say who does this testing and have you ever had anyone test your piglets for feeding?â

Anyone that knows anything about slaughter knows that you can cross state lines for direct to slaughter. Anyone in livestock business should know that a disease outbreak can slam the door on your sale of breeding stock into other states. A loss of that market reduces the value of everyoneâs hogs, supply/demand. Michigan isnât the holder of most of this countryâs breeding stock. So, pigs are imported. There are also several Michigan breeders that specialize in Show Pigs. They depend on being able to sell to other states.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2012)

NaturalNews exclusive: Michigan government unleashes armed raids on small pig farmers, forces farmer to shoot all his own pigs


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## stormrider27 (May 31, 2011)

ladycat said:


> NaturalNews exclusive: Michigan government unleashes armed raids on small pig farmers, forces farmer to shoot all his own pigs


Anybody think you live in a free country?

Storm


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Haypoint: It's PSEUDORABIES.


and do those said "Show Pigs" have curly or straight tails? Floppy or erect ears?

I want them killed.


Slaughter them and their babies while _you_ watch.

Better? I want to watch. I want to I come on YOUR property and slaughter all your animals you raised for decades and have properly fenced and maintained. AND I want to be paid for my marksmanship... 

Then we can stop this niggling discussion and you can get your pork/chicken/rabbit/beef from the grocery store the way proper folks do. 

And you can raise acceptable "farm" stuff like tomatoes (but only if I decide you can).


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## Ohiogal (Mar 15, 2007)

Yeah, Haypoint needs a dose of the same medicine he's big on forcing on everyone else. Let's decide for him what he can grow/raise and then tell him before slaughter that he's a felon because we've changed the law to make him one.

We do NOT live in a free country.


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## mitchell3006 (Apr 1, 2010)

I am proud that I don't live in Michigan. I am afraid it would cause me to get hostile towards my state officials.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Michigan isn't any different than the other states.
Many other states have laws against wild hogs.
Also some places have laws against certain breeds of dogs.
There are laws against some species of birds, snakes, fish, and even grass and bushes.

The only difference in Michigan is someone found another way to market their hogs and keep them.
People are giving him money for his hogs and he gets to keep the hogs.
Sounds like smart marketing and not so smart people.


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## zephyrcreek (Mar 30, 2012)

I feel bad for anyone that is FORCED to slaughter their livestock........but once again my issue here is with the way this order has been written. It DOES NOT matter what their intention is.....this has been written in a way to let them interpret it anyway they want. How many times have we seen this happen in our coutry. Laws are written with one intention, but someone else interprets it a completely different way years down the road.

I cannot conprehend how anyone can think this situation is okay. I'm in shock!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Sorry for my spelling error. By the way, while you and I are discussing my spelling, how about you fix up "I *want to I come on* YOUR property and slaughter all your animals you raised for decades and have properly fenced and maintained. *AND* I want to be paid for my marksmanship... Microsoft Word will fix my spelling and correct your sentence structure. I know, we are getting off topic, Gailanne.

My intent isn't to force anything on anyone. I am not the DNR. I am not making laws. But I understand this situation and have attempted to stop the outlandish claims and squelch the flames of emotion that some seem to enjoy so much.There are things that some folks do not understand and I was trying to straighten out. 

This isn't an issue of killing baby pigs*. IF* that was really done, it was done by a breeder to evolk an emotional response. All the Hunt Clubs and breeders of Wild Hogs (Russian Wild Boar, Eurasian Wild Hogs or wild hogs scooped up from Texas) were told that because of the hundreds of Wild Hogs that had and continue to escape from their facilities, some found to be diseased, that these Wild Hogs would be considered invasive and therefore illegal. The DNR gave everyone 15 months to complete their hunts and otherwise market these Wild Hogs.

I have submitted press releases and information directly from the DNR in an attempt to dispell misinformation. I listened to a radio interview with some wild hog breeders and an interview with the Director of DNR, but I guess you don't want to hear about that...


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

it matter doesn't how long they are given. they shouldn't have to give them up in the first place.
unless they got out, the farmer shouldn't be punished.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> it matter doesn't how long they are given. they shouldn't have to give them up in the first place.
> unless they got out, the farmer shouldn't be punished.


You are correct. But what happens when I'm raising Russian Wild Boars and there are a bunch of Russian Hogs destroying my neighbors corn field. When the DNR show up, i just tell them "those aren't mine." 
If you are losing your corn crop, is that how you want it handled? I don't think so.

No one wants to own up to loosing Wild Russian Boars or Eurasian Hogs or Razorbacks, yet hundreds have escaped and it is near impossible to get them out of the environment once they are out. 

I can think of other ways to put the responsability onto the backs of the Hunt Clubs and Wild Hog Breeders, but it would involve more regulation and no one asked me.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

You know what you came up with tagging, tattooing or chipping, it was a very good plan.
they could use it now and if the farmers pig is found outside a fence make it a heaving fee.
but no, instead of letting the farmer choose to do it or just kill the pig they choose to kill the pigs.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Spelling errors are different than conversational English.

And if you are addressing me? I don't have an "e" on the end of Gailann.


Tagging/chipping would be preferable to this declaratory mess. The cat's out of the bag. The hogs are there. Russian, Eurasian, "domestic," whatever. They're out there.

Or as the gay community says: "We're here..." They're out there. They're breeding. They're going to stay. 

I still have YET to understand how killing properly fenced, maintained and processed animals solves the wild population.

Criteria that is as vague and ridiculous as the declaratory statement offers is just ludicrous. 

Mark et al. should call the Michigan DNR on the CAFOs. They've got "feral hogs" loose in a BUILDING!!!! Dear God. They might get loose. And breed.

p.s. IF there were animals destroying my crops and I have a neighbor who has similar animals and says "HEY. They're not MINE!" Then I shrug, get a rifle and kill the marauding animals. That's the way it works here. The township trustee has funds to reimburse me (if I so choose and can PROVE BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT WHO THEY BELONG TO). Wild dogs? SSS. Wild hogs that no one wants to 'fess up to (and they may be progeny of progeny by now) need to be removed. Killed. Eaten. Given to the 'yotes. Not some vague "...hey, if it has a tail and ears we think it may be feral stock."


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

And I'm not saying (note that I began the sentence with And) that we need to hold hands, sing songs and PROTECT the feral hogs now roaming loose. 

(note no Oxford comma although I still believe the sans comma style in a string changes the tone of the sentence.)

The Michigan DNR may have their hearts in the right places, the CAFO folks may love everyone and everything. That doesn't negate or remove the extremely poor descriptors/qualifiers in the declaratory statement.

If I was a power tool (as in TOOL), I would revel in the ability to enforce this as I see fit. Indiana no longer has a car inspection for the same reason. We paid some $$ to get our car "passed" - whether it fit the standards or not. 

You HAVE to see that, Haypoint. If you are as intelligent as you seem to be, you HAVE to acknowledge that issue.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Gailann Schrader said:


> Spelling errors are different than conversational English.
> 
> And if you are addressing me? I don't have an "e" on the end of Gailann.
> 
> ...


SSS works on the neighbors Beagle, but not so easy in a state with millions of acres of forests, hundreds of thoudands of miles of rivers and streams and millions of acres of cropland. Michigan is in the top three for variety of crops grown. 
There is no way to assign ownership to a Wild Hog. 

After a couple hunting seasons where a hunter is allowed to kill as many Wild Hogs, there haven't been many kills. But there are lots on the game cameras hunters use. I think rhat if the hunters could have knocked back the population explosion of Wild Hogs, they would have left the Hunt Clubs alone.

I'd guess it was the environmental damage that got this mess moved from the Ag Depaartment to the DNR. Their focus, rightly so, is to protect the environment. I think the Ag Department would have gone the regulation route.

You and I agree that the vague DNR law wording is troublesome. But I think when you look at the photo of a Wild Hog and Bakers Russian Sows, you will agree that they are, without debate, Wild Hog-type sows.

I wondered it you'd take the bait with the misspelled Gailann. :hysterical:


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Bait? No. More like a gaffe, Haypoint. I'm not sure misspelling someone's name for bait does much good in arguing your case. I can spell it faral but the wild hogs are still there and they still can't read...

I'm sure there's damage. I'm sure there is. But thousands of wild hogs? Srsly? Granted they're a crafty bunch, but thousands? If there are thousands, the hope to contain the "infection" is gone and this declaratory statement is useless. 

The Michigan DNR is going to have a fight with some farm owners/folks - and them picking that fight with CAFOs behind them isn't going to make the enforcement reasonable for anyone.

My issue isn't whether this Baker person and his farm HAVE phenotype "feral" hogs - it's that the feral hogs can't read. This phenotype doesn't mean a load of hog manure with the way it's written. 

(p.s. I recently bought a mule that turned out to be a registered high-bred Standardbred ugly mare with [email protected] ears. She could pass for a mule - to the uninitiated she looks like a mule. Her phenotype shows as a mule.) 

Turning off the fenced faucet (if there is a leak from that sector) isn't going to put the feral hogs out of business. They'll continue to increase in numbers (especially if there are THOUSANDS) REGARDLESS of the declaratory statement. It did very little except to put several thousand income tax paying tourist and specialty food farms out of business and in general give everyone the jitters.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Gailann Schrader said:


> Bait? No. More like a gaffe, Haypoint. I'm not sure misspelling someone's name for bait does much good in arguing your case. I can spell it faral but the wild hogs are still there and they still can't read...
> 
> I'm sure there's damage. I'm sure there is. But thousands of wild hogs? Srsly? Granted they're a crafty bunch, but thousands? If there are thousands, the hope to contain the "infection" is gone and this declaratory statement is useless.
> 
> ...


 CAFOs are behind this? Do tell.
To tell the truth, I have doubts Michigan will be able to eradicate the Wild hogs that are out in the environment. I even wonder if Michigan can stop the population growth of wild hogs. 
In Mark Bakers website, it shows his heritage boar and his Russian wild sows. Easy to tell. It does get harder as he mixes breeds. Risky business in a state that has told you that they'll be requiring you to get rid of the Wild Hogs.
You are right, turning off the faucet isn't going to eliminate the problem. But, ever heard, " When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you need to do is stop digging."? Well, it is sort of distracting formulating a plan to go after wild hogs in the environment, while Mark Baker is breeding new ones.
No one knows the number of escaped Wild Hogs. Sightings in nearly every county means the problem is widespread. Four years ago, a fella near Bay City had 250 escape. Crops in that area include corn, soybean, sugar beet, navy bean, kidney bean, potatoes, sweet corn, strawberries and cantaloupes. Hundreds of miles of drainage ditches.Only a few were shot. Any guess as to the current population? If half were females, 250 litters in 9 months. Letsâ do an easy survival of 4 per litter. Well, thereâs a thousand. Now in a year we have added 500 gilts. With their two litters of 4, we have two thousand, plus the sows thousand. Thatâs just one area. So, I think I can safely say there are thousands on the loose state wide. Michigan sportsmen kill 500,000 whitetail deer each year plus many hundreds that get hit by trucks and the population still allows for thousands to die in a late spring without effecting the population.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Michigan set to begin enforcing exotic swine ban | Grand Haven Tribune

Michigan Ban on Feral Swine Goes Into Effect April 1 | Protests Continue Over Invasive Species Classification | Video | TheBlaze.com

Report: Michigan DNR Using &#8216;Armed Raids&#8217; to Enforce Feral Swine Ban | TheBlaze.com


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

I lol'd...

âPeople have lost their minds in Michigan. If there are 7,000 pigs running around Michigan, Iâm a gay banjo player in a hee-haw band,â Nugent said, according to the MIRS report.


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## HillRunner (Jun 28, 2010)

That's great!



One day when the SHTF everyone is gonna be wishing there was more pigs running around.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

HillRunner said:


> That's great!
> 
> 
> 
> One day when the SHTF everyone is gonna be wishing there was more pigs running around.


Not if you are growing a crop or garden that you need to live on. Those pigs destroy more land than the bit of boar-tainted meat you might get off one.


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## HillRunner (Jun 28, 2010)

Yea if given the chance to settle long enough to grow a garden. Given that you don't get raided by another group of people.


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## HillRunner (Jun 28, 2010)

Oh also what are the characteristics that the Michigan DNR looking for anyways?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

HillRunner said:


> Oh also what are the characteristics that the Michigan DNR looking for anyways?


You know the ones that creep around in the hollers around your state? That's what they are afterm Razorbacks. Also google Russian Wild Boar and Eurasian Wild Hog. I think in an effort to make sure someone didn't find a loophole, the DNR (that have very little farm knowledge) had a lawyer write up the characteristics. They know what they mean, I know what they are going after, but it has all the sky-is-falling folk's britches in a bind.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

haypoint said:


> You know the ones that creep around in the hollers around your state? That's what they are afterm Razorbacks. Also google Russian Wild Boar and Eurasian Wild Hog. I think in an effort to make sure someone didn't find a loophole, the DNR (that have very little farm knowledge) had a lawyer write up the characteristics. They know what they mean, I know what they are going after, but it has all the sky-is-falling folk's britches in a bind.


because the whole sky is in there.

sorry I don't have the link on hand but it can be interpreted to fit any pig of any breed or mix.


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## HillRunner (Jun 28, 2010)

haypoint said:


> You know the ones that creep around in the hollers around your state? That's what they are afterm Razorbacks. Also google Russian Wild Boar and Eurasian Wild Hog. I think in an effort to make sure someone didn't find a loophole, the DNR (that have very little farm knowledge) had a lawyer write up the characteristics. They know what they mean, I know what they are going after, but it has all the sky-is-falling folk's britches in a bind.


The Russian Boars are doing very poorly in are state.
http://wildboarhunt.blogspot.com/2009/10/wild-boar-numbers-decline-in-west.html?m=1


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> because the whole sky it in there.
> 
> sorry I don't have the link on hand but it can be interpreted to fit any pig of any breed or mix.


I think that is what I was saying. It was hard to figure out what they were talking about because the DNR wasn't using the correct terms and the lawyers made more of a mess of it.

I've been following this from the beginning and I know what a Hunt Club wild hog looks like. I'm not a lawyer and maybe that's what it takes to figure out what their paper says is a wild hog. This whole mess is being handled by the DNR and not the MDA because they are dealing with wild animals, not livestock. Mark Baker has purposely blured the line by having wild on heritage and heritage on wild crosses.

I doubt most folks would like it any better if the MDA were running the show. I'd guess they would allow the wild hogs, but put so much regulation and big fines for violations, people would give up. I guess that is good that DNR got this hot potato. The MDA has been helpful to many small farmers and from what I've seen not in the pocket of Big Ag. But I understand some folks have those anti-government feelings right down to their DNA. 

The main thing, foil hats aside, if you are raising Razorbacks, Russian Boar or Eurasian Hogs, you were notified 15 months ago to finish up with the Hunt Club kills or whatever and find a new hobby. It does get a bit harder when you start crossing these wild hogs with a rare breed. I saw some Potbellied pigs crossed with Razorback and they looked like Razorback. Other crosses might look more like Potbellied , but still have that escape/ fence busting instinct.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

haypoint said:


> I doubt most folks would like it any better if the MDA were running the show. I'd guess they would allow the wild hogs, but put so much regulation and big fines for violations, people would give up.


but a lest they could have picked either to keep them and maybe face finds or get rid of them, themselves.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Fascinating article, HillRunner. 

Thanks for the link!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

You may be right, but because these pesky hogs are so difficult to contain, it would just lead to continued disaster, Iâm afraid. If a 15 month grace period to get rid of them was cause for protests, just imagine what chipping regulations would do. Then the first one to get hit with a $10,000 fine. Iâll bet you could hear them yowl all the way to your house.
Letâs say the State allows people to import wild swine, if they get tested for disease and get micro chipped. That would have been a help. Iâm sure micro chipping requirements would send the noNAIS group into overdrive. Wild hogs would chew off each otherâs metal ear tags. Then the State would have to put fines for violations up there near the costs to eradicate escaped hogs. Since they are so wary, eradicating just a couple would be costly. So, a $10,000 fine wouldnât be too high. Then, since the pattern has been to claim the hogs werenât theirs, all baby pigs would need to be microchipped right away. That would be a hardship for the guys that are just raising them in fenced swamps or within thousand acre Hunt Clubs. The State would have to stop by every couple weeks to check for microchips. That would require a fee to cover the Stateâs time. Failure to chip your wild hog babies would be the same as letting one escape. What I mean is that if the fine for not chipping was less than the fine for having one of your chipped hogs outside the fence, no one would insert a microchip. So, we would end up with weekly inspections or at least frequent spot inspections, additional fees, costs to microchip, fence checks, some way to get hunters to get their kill scanned for a microchip. All so some guy can pay $800, stand on an elevated deck and shoot a wild hog that had just been released from a pen. Naw. Donât think so.
Iâm against well intentioned Anaconda owners from fencing off their back yard in the Everglades to breed Anacondas. Iâm against responsible Asian Carp breeders from fencing off their pond in Michigan. Iâm against an airline passenger bringing a ziplock bag of hornets as carry-on. 
Iâm not against free range anything that is less likely to escape and do the type of disease carrying environmental and agricultural damage that these pests have.
In Biblical times, the most common occupation was sheep/goat herder. If you have ever tried to herd pigs, you can see why the Old Testament speaks out against them. Imagine what the other shepherds would have thought if someone introduced a bunch of rooting, wallowing, omnivorous Eurasian Hogs to their pasture lands? LOL


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

Gailann Schrader said:


> Fascinating article, HillRunner.
> 
> Thanks for the link!


So clear cutting the whole state to get rid of mast crops is an answer?


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Nope. That the ferals are somewhat under control. Not the destroying habitat. 

AND that the indigenous white tails and others are making a comeback...


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

I just had a pie-in-the-sky thought... Why not make these folks that are taking their stock seriously "grandfathered."



If their stock gets out, if it reaches n+X it gets curtailed (where n = current number and X = a reasonable "expansion" number or n*2). Say if you currently have 50 hogs, you can only expand to 100. Or if you have 20 you can only expand to 40. 

And all hogs have to be accounted for and cataloged in some manner.

No new operations with "feral" stock...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

It&#8217;s the Muslim&#8217;s fault:
http://wramsite.com/forum/topics/swine-farmer-vs-michigan-dept-of-natural-resources-in-court-today

I thought since my supplier was in court, I&#8217;d be covered:
Invasive swine prompts DNR visit to Renegade Ranch, case in court Friday - Cheboygan, MI - Cheboygan Daily Tribune

I&#8217;ve never had feral swine on my property. I get all mine from a wild hog breeder in the UP:
Cheboygan preserve in hot water over feral swine - Petoskey News

Here is one that goes back a couple years:
Big pig problem provokes blame brawl Â« Capital News Service


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Since it appears that the owners of wild hogs are not all completely responsible, it probably doesn't do a lot of good to pass laws requiring microchips and inspections. They don't even pay any attention to the laws that say the hogs have to be fenced and are not to be turned loose.

I've seen wild hogs being farm raised in Britain. They are raised for restaurants and the farmers raising them do not have the slightest trouble keeping them confined.

I also have to say that there is no way on this earth to mistake a wild boar for a domestic pig. They look like wild animals and are very distinctive looking.


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## HillRunner (Jun 28, 2010)

But am I wrong in think that tame hogs that get out don't go feral to? Seem to me the the problem would be tame hogs that went feral and not wild hog that escaped and reverted to being wild again.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Gailann Schrader said:


> ...underwriting means paying the wages and such of* DNR personnel to come out and kill your law-abiding animals...*
> 
> 
> I'm not sure where else declares that they can come out and kill your properly fenced, properly cared-for animals. I don't care what species - dog, hog, horse, cat, whatever... Seems pretty knotheaded to me...
> ...


 
The DNR hasn't killed anyone's animals



> Get 5 or 6 groups of us doing that all over the problem areas? *We'll clear most of them out (or at least to tolerable numbers)*, feed the needy (or zoo animals or compost the buggers) and everyone wins.


They've been trying to do that in NC for *over 100 years* now, and it still hasn't worked


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## bsrk7 (Apr 18, 2012)

It seems that no one has pointed out Mississippi State University's video on the subject.

Here's [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTIxox-46Aw&feature=BFa&list=FLQOINDIUGfoXNSwPu_hFmDQ"]part 1[/ame], [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwym-2Jjb2k&feature=relmfu"]part 2[/ame], and [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg764J2K-w0&feature=relmfu"]part 3[/ame].

It's very informative. I think it should clear up any confusion on the matter.

EDIT: The video explains the wild hog problem in general, but not the Michigan DNR's ruling. I think it's enough to see where the DNR is coming from, though.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

What's interesting is that the Michigan rules were probably based on Wisconsin's, which has been in effect for several years with no opposition. "It is illegal for anyone to operate a feral pig hunting ground or promote the reproduction of feral pigs." Russian boars and domestic feral pigs are all considered the same.

Martin


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/2011FSMap_010512_372841_7.pdf

Both sides are being stoopid. (and yeas, that was mispelled on purpose).

The DNR by pushing basically a non issue (see above link).

Baker trying to get free publicity and in the same breath, be a 'martyr'. In the case of him crossing heritage with Russian to increase his litter size, why? The wild hogs have a higher birthrate because of a high juvenile death rate. Why would one want to have a sow birth more than she can nurse?

An emotionally charged non-issue to tell you the truth. The non-issue is on both sides.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

TV 9&10 News did a couple reports on this.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

We're summing up the semester/end of class in my Botany course with several weeks on Global Change and its effects on our environment. 

Basically? Where it's hot and dry it'll get drier. The equator's environments won't be as affected as the areas AWAY from the equator due to the Hadleys/convection currents, etc.

Indiana (my home state) is currently zone 5ish and essentially will morph into zone 6-7ish or warmer depending on where you live. Etc. Parts of Oklahoma and such may become uninhabitable due to drought and heat.

My point? And my Professor's point? Those things which we see as pests/problems? May become our bread and butter. Literally. Feral hogs can exist AND ADAPT in harsh environments. From wet Florida to dry scrubby Texas to cold, rocky Michigan and beyond... Protein on the hoof. In large numbers. With little care. 

It occurs to me that feral hogs may be an asset instead of a detriment. The "hot house" hogs may be too delicate and require too much commercial feed (fed with oil/petroleum driven machinery and cultivated/harvested with oil/petroleum machinery) to sustain reasonbly in the next 100 years...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Gailann Schrader said:


> We're summing up the semester/end of class in my Botany course with several weeks on Global Change and its effects on our environment.
> 
> Basically? Where it's hot and dry it'll get drier. The equator's environments won't be as affected as the areas AWAY from the equator due to the Hadleys/convection currents, etc.
> 
> ...


Waaaaaaay off topic here, but I'll bite.
If we are in a Global Warming Cycle, as has happened many times in the past, we should have a few thousand years before I have to pull out the apple trees and plant Prickly Pear Cactus.
Record warm this past winter for you and me, but other parts of the world experienced record cold. 

If Razorbacks want to migrate north as the climate changes, fine. But since the imported by man wild hogs ruin more crop than they provide in protein, I'll see their existance in Michigan as a curse, not a benifit.


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

Lets compare notes in 10 years. I'm markin' it on my calendar.

Be there.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

OK.
To get the focus back on topic, lets flip out etch-a-sketch and look at the facts that have developed. Michigan DNR hasn't gone after heritage hogs. They haven't shot any hogs. They want the Hunt Clubs and breeders for Hunt Clubs to do what they intended to do, sell hunts and shoot the wild hogs. DNR is focused only on the Russian Wild, Eurasian Wild and Razorbacks and their crosses.

As more people learn what Renigade Ranch was really doing and that Mark Baker is trying to muddy the water by breeding Russian Wild Sows and filming his Heritage breed.


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## kfrancisco92 (Mar 21, 2012)

im just recently reading this but i looked at the picture of what they consider to be wild boar characteristics and we recently had a sow that had some of them also though she was not wild. She was part Mulefoot and sort of scraggly looking when we bought her but cleaned up well before we sold her. they have updated information on the site now also. again.http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Feral_swine_photo_illustration_381452_7.pdf


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## kfrancisco92 (Mar 21, 2012)

Also it seems that farmers are cooperating in the searches of the farms, says that they are voluntary. Michigans DNR seems frustrated about all the "rumors" they say are going around about the order.


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

Wild boars (as in the canned hunts) should be hunted ONLY with spear on horseback.

THAT'LL keep the wimps away


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

kfrancisco92 said:


> Also it seems that farmers are cooperating in the searches of the farms, says that they are voluntary. Michigans DNR seems frustrated about all the "rumors" they say are going around about the order.


Google Mark Baker and you'll see some of the half truths and rumors that have clouded this issue.

This is soooo not true. There was another thread that covered this topic last week. There was even a link to a pile of fiction presented as news. It has gotten people shook up and focused on lies and no one wants to check out the facts.

The DNR hasn't and isn't killing anyone's pigs. The DNR isn't interested in anyone's heritige pigs. The big Pork Industry isn't behind the DNR's push to reclaim the environment from imported wild hogs.
This has nothing to do with Agenda 21 or any other fictional foil hat conspiracy theory.

People imported wild hogs (Razorbacks) from southern states to be used as targets at Hunt Clubs. A person pays their $600 and goes to a hunting stand, elevated platform. Then a hog is released and the guy gets to shoot his pig with a high powered rifle. A few weeks later, he comes back for his box of boar-tainted wild hog meat and his mounted Hog head.
But, these imported wild hogs were brought in by the hundreds and put in hunt Club enclosures designed to keep white tailed deer in. They are 8 feet tall. The wild hogs did what wild hogs do, they dug under the fences and escaped. Other people thinking that they could make money raising wild hogs for the Hunt Clubs, imported hundreds more. Most of these imported hogs were captured from the wild and imported without the required Interstate Health Certificates. Many carry pesudorabies, a disease that with lots of government money and lots of farmer cooperation has been wiped out in the domestic hog production. Yes, even heritage hogs.
But these would-be wild hog breeders were not equipped to contain these wild creatures. Hundreds escaped. Breeding populations of escaped Razorbacks "popped up" next to every Hunt Club and Wild Hog Breeding operation. Nearly every Hunt Club and Wild Hog Breeder denied that any of their wild hogs had escaped. 
Once these wild hogs escape, they are difficult to trap or shoot. They are nocturnal. They damage pastures, woodlots, streams, ponds, crops, orchards, crops and lawns.
The Big Ag isn't hurt as much as is the small farmer. Imaging depending on your garden to live on or the garden income to continue to farm and then in one night the wild hogs, busted down the fence and ruined it all? Imagine having a free range hog business and having your sows bred by a wild boar or infected with pesudorabies?
One guy, Mark Baker, is breeding Wild Hogs to a rare heritage breed. He wants to be able to breed both wild hogs and cross bread wild hogs. He is using the fact that he also has a rare heritage breed as a way to tug at heartstrings and collect cash from unsuspecting donors, supporting his potential court case.
Generally, any livestock issue would be handled by the Michigan Dept. of Agriculture. But since the problem is that these pests are escaping and spoiling the environment, makes it a Natural Resources issue. The DNR, not up to speed on hog terms, sought the help of a team of lawyers. This was so everything would be done correctly, without loop holes, etc. What a cluster that was. They mis-used the word feral and that has been used to fan the flames of the conspiracy theorists.
In addition to the wild Razorbacks, Russian Wild Boar and Eurasian Wild Hogs have been imported and then escaped..
If we could turn back the hands of time, the moment the first Wild Hog was imported, there should be a required test for pesudorabies and a microchip implanted. The first hog that escaped, the owner would be fined $10,000 to cover the damage to the environment and costs to shoot or catch. Anyone with a non-micro chipped hog would get a $10,000 fine to keep everyone honest.
But the group that already sees this as a government takeover of rights, would start the same NO-NAIS chant, "First our animals, then our children...". So, I guess at this point, we might as well try to rid Michigan of this invasive pest and get rid of the breeding stock that has fueled this ecological disaster.


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## Beowulf (Aug 27, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Google Mark Baker and you'll see some of the half truths and rumors that have clouded this issue.
> 
> This is soooo not true. There was another thread that covered this topic last week. There was even a link to a pile of fiction presented as news. It has gotten people shook up and focused on lies and no one wants to check out the facts.
> 
> ...


Without citation, this is all opinion.


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

Ohio's law just passed the senate. It is against "dangerous" animals. It is based on the reasoning that someone "could" let them loose. If MI is following this mentality then I can see where their side of it.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

blaineiac said:


> Ohio's law just passed the senate. It is against "dangerous" animals. It is based on the reasoning that someone "could" let them loose. If MI is following this mentality then I can see where their side of it.


I think that the fact that so many people were not able to contain those Razorbacks once they got them into Michigan, it was liike last year's Ohio Wild Animal Release, but more numerous, more damaging to the environment, yet less dangerous to humans. With over a hundred Hunt Clubs and breeders that have had hundreds upon hundreds of Wild Hogs escape and in a few years has caused Wild Hogs to exist in most counties in Michigan, clearly, people can't control them with fences.
The DNR allowed all sportsmen and land owners to shoot on sight and only a few dozen were shot, while night vision cameras show they are out there in hundreds of areas. 
So, it isn't exctly a "could" get out, it is mostly a "you can't take care of your stuff, we'll take your stuff away, before someone gets hurt." Not fair to the 1% that had a good fence.

With the release/escape of a few lions and tigers, there is small chance of breeding groups being spotted in 62 counties after a few years. Doubt a lion or Tiger would survive all winter in Michigan. Wild hogs present distinct and different problems.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

haypoint said:


> Doubt a lion or Tiger would survive all winter in Michigan.


Siberian tigers giggle at this.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

haypoint said:


> OK.
> To get the focus back on topic, lets flip out etch-a-sketch and look at the facts that have developed. Michigan DNR hasn't gone after heritage hogs. They haven't shot any hogs. They want the Hunt Clubs and breeders for Hunt Clubs to do what they intended to do, sell hunts and shoot the wild hogs. DNR is focused only on the Russian Wild, Eurasian Wild and Razorbacks and their crosses.
> 
> As more people learn what Renigade Ranch was really doing and that Mark Baker is trying to muddy the water by breeding Russian Wild Sows and filming his Heritage breed.


this is beside the point, its the fact they can as the regulation is written!

Might I ask if you have some affiliation with the DNR or perhaps one of the groups supporting this?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

||Downhome|| said:


> this is beside the point, its the fact they can as the regulation is written!
> 
> Might I ask if you have some affiliation with the DNR or perhaps one of the groups supporting this?


Yup, I'm affiliated with a group that supports the eradication of Wild Hogs in Michigan. This loose knit group has members in every county in the whole state. We call ourselves farmers. I'm also a member of another group that supports the DNR on their efforts to rid Michigan of this pest, that group goes by the title of Sportsmen or Hunters. I have belonged to another group for 40 years. We stand against the Wld Hogs. We are property owners. 

The Wild Hog population threatens to harm small farms and the livelihood of those small farmers. Just like when the DNR wanted to "re-introduce" Wolves to the UP, I stood against it. The DNR didn't do it. But because of federal regulations, the wolves that migrated from the west and Canada are here to stay. We don't need Wild Hogs added to the list of harmful predators. 

Most sportsmen and hunters have seen, first hand, the damage these Wild Hogs do to the environment.

Land owners don't want their property rooted up, their shorelines wallowed or diseases spread.

I agree that the law was poorly written. I don't know exactly why it was written that way. I am not a big supporter of DNR, but I support what they are doing to get rid of the problem. If an all-inclusive law prevents someone like Mark Baker from keeping Wild Hogs and Wild Hog crosses, then I feel it is doing its job. I turned my back on Mark when he made this about heritage hogs when it isn't.

Back when the NoNAIS group were fighting a national animal ID system, they argued that the USDA used the word "Shareholder" instead of land owner and that meant the government was owning your animals and all sorts of silly word games. Now, the eradication of Wild Hogs is being delayed while a handfull of people argue over the wording of what a Wild Hog looks like.

I do not believe the government cares how many chickens I have. I do not believe Big Ag knows what I sell at the Farmers Market. I don't believe Monsanto is out to get me. I don't think the government hates heritage hog breeders. I don't think Big Pork cares about the small hog operations. I do believe the Michigan Dept of Ag should have stopped the first importation of Wild Hogs into this state or made the regulations so strong, no one would allow a Wild Hog to escape. If I thought all Wild Hog owners would prevent all escapes, then I wouldn't care what they do on their property. But I don't think anyone, including Mark Baker, have been 100% successful in containing Wild Hogs.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

I have no problem with eliminating feral pigs. For that matter any feral animal.
What I want is to see the language "clarified" and strengthened.
If they simply do away with the phenotype classification and add the breeds not effected,problem solved.
After all do not all breeds have a standard of perfection? 
Its not like it would take years to do either, the DNR director can make the change with the swipe of his pen.
Visual should only be the first indication. It should then be verified with DNA. If the call was right then the owner pays, if not then it rests with the state.

I will never be a supporter of weak regulations. Nor legislating away powers. That is to say Administrative rule. 

Had the Original law remained intact as written this would probably never been of issue. 
Though I do not have to much love for the MDA either. 

our departments seem to be a exercise in futility!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

||Downhome|| said:


> I have no problem with eliminating feral pigs. For that matter any feral animal.
> What I want is to see the language "clarified" and strengthened.
> If they simply do away with the phenotype classification and add the breeds not effected,problem solved.
> After all do not all breeds have a standard of perfection?
> ...


Yes, DNA testing. Not the real life 6 weeks DNA testing, the other, NCIS style of next day DNA testing, yea.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

This seems clear enough:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Feral_swine_photo_illustration_381452_7.pdf

Video that explains a lot: A truck load of pigs



http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12145_55230-251114--,00.html


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Wild hogs in Michigan - YouTube!

Michigan Wild Pig Damage


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

ever heard of propaganda?

perhaps parrots?


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