# Too Old, Fat, Slow, Weak...



## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

On another thread I've noticed a lot of people saying they haven't learned and/or don't want to learn any hand to hand skills because they are too old, slow, weak, whatever. Not to admonish anyone here, but aren't we in the S&EP forum? Don't we by our nature attempt to be prepared for as many possibilities as we can? I mean, I've never seen anyone here say I have a shotgun, a rifle, and a handgun so I'm fully prepared. I've never seen anyone say I have enough food to last me 2 weeks so I'm good, bring on the zombies!

But when it comes to fighting off an attacker we just assume our Ruger Super RedHawk is all we need. Maybe I'm strange but that line of thinking confuses me. You are never too old to learn a new trick or two. When I was a kid riding the bus through Camden NJ I saw an old man with a walker lay open a mugger with a straight razor. Someone forgot to tell him he's too old to fight back. The guy that taught me Krav Maga was in his 60s at the time, I'd be willing to bet he could have whooped 90% of us back then. 

I'd really suggest everyone learn at least some basic hand to hand. You don't have to take commando training courses or become a guerrilla fighter to give yourself an edge. Knowing even a few basic moves and strikes could well be the difference between life and death. Street punks more often than not aren't going to be trained, which means knowing more than they do gives you an edge. If you are slow, weak, old, whatever it maybe doesn't give you an edge. Maybe it just evens the odds. Still better than getting beat to death and left in a gutter right?

Take a look at some of these videos. Maybe buy a decent video and learn something from it. Best bet would be to go down to a local class and just sit in and see if it interests you.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Kra...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Some of the basics I think everyone should know: (And I hope JefferyD will come in and add to this)

1. Always attack as soon as possible. The goal of the fight is to end the fight and escape ASAP. Looking good, being graceful, etc will get you killed.

2. Fight Dirty! Bite, scratch, poke an eye, whatever. This is no time for manners and honor! 

3. Always assume it's life and death. You never know who or what the other guy is about. Assume the worst and act accordingly.

4. Fight Dirty! Kick the other guy in the junk, slip a finger up his nose and pull HARD.

5. Place your strikes well. Punching a guy in the nose is great if you're boxing or it's a school yard fight. If you're attacked on the street however we don't want to beat up our opponent. We want to maim him and escape. Knees, throat, elbows, groin, jaw, eyes. Attack these points, break them, remove them, destroy them.

6. Everything is a weapon! (Fight Dirty) I cannot say this loud enough. EVERYTHING IS A WEAPON! Your head, your knee, elbow, feet, a rock, beer bottle, belt... We don't care what we use so long as it eliminates the threat. 

7. Fight Dirty! If you grab the top of someones ear and pull down in a swift yank it will remove the ear from the head. This hurts apparently, a lot.

8. Make sure once you begin your attack you do not stop until you are able to escape. Any move you make, even if it's to block a punch or kick, is made ONLY so you can attack again, escape, or gain some advantage like picking up a weapon. You do not react, you act. You WILL explode into an animal like frenzy on the threat. Not every strike or attack will be the fight ending strike nor will they all be pretty, but each will force the opponent to defend himself instead of attack you. ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK!

9. Pay attention. You must maintain awareness of your opponent, your surroundings, and yourself. Look for others coming to his aid. Look for weapons. Look for weak spots and strengths. Is he favoring his left leg? Does he seem to have some training? Does he appear to be on drugs? Is there an escape route? Am I injured and how do I hide it? Am I running out of steam, if so is it time to take more risk to end this before I am unable to continue?

10. Hit hard things with soft things and soft things with hard things. This is less a rule and more a reminder. A clenched fist to the jaw is great but risks breaking your hand, which may slow you down. Use the palm to strike the face and you will do less damage to yourself and often hit harder than you can with a fist. A palm to the ear can rupture an eardrum ending a fight in one shot. 

This isn't the be all end of course. Just some basic stuff to remember in case of emergency. There is a lot to learn, far more than I could ever pass on in type. All the more reason to visit a local class and sit in. 

(Disclaimer) All info on this thread is presented for educational purposes only. It is not intended to make you a killing machine nor is it intended to replace a real education. Anyone using this information does so at their own risk. Myself nor Homesteading Today are not responsible for actions taken by readers. IE. if someone goes out and rips off a guys ear, it ain't my fault! Just sayin.)


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Good point. I took TaiKwonDo many years ago. I can't do all I could back then due to back problems, but I know enough that I could at least cause the attacker to think twice. Most of the "bad guys" don't expect people to fight back and will back down a lot of the time to try to find an easier target. Many police departments have classes that civilians can take in self defense. Simple things like when walking to your car have your keys in your hands with the keys sticking out through the fingers of a fisted hand. Punch someone with that and it will cause some damage, enough to distract an attacker. The hand administered to the nose in an upward thrust can break the nose and force bone fragments into the brain. Kicking a person in the knee can break the knee. As was stated, don't try to keep it clean, you aren't competing for a trophy, but possibly for your life.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Excellent post. I especially like points 6 and 7. I am definitely weak, but I've still managed to fight off an attacker "unarmed." I say "unarmed" because I was in Chicago without a gun, but I did have an aluminum briefcase that nicely broke his jaw.

ETA: One of my favorite fighting styles is called "Trap Zone." It's basic premise is to fight dirty, using a lot of elbows and knees.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

ryanthomas said:


> Excellent post. I especially like points 6 and 7. I am definitely weak, but I've still managed to fight off an attacker "unarmed." I say "unarmed" because I was in Chicago without a gun, but I did have an aluminum briefcase that nicely broke his jaw.
> 
> ETA: One of my favorite fighting styles is called "Trap Zone." It's basic premise is to fight dirty, using a lot of elbows and knees.


 Yeah, #7 is a personal favorite of mine as well. One of the most important things to me is staying off the ground. Youth and strength have a much larger advantage when it becomes a wrestling match. #7 becomes very effective at this point.

It's especially useful for women facing a rapist. The guys goal is going to be to pin her and get access, this leaves several openings for a little body modification. Grab and yank, it's like ripping off a really stubborn bandaid.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

When we were working the flea markets in Ca. I always had my key chain in my hand. With a pepper spray and open utility knife on it. 
A knee to the hangy down parts or the palm of your hand in a upward motion to the nose were my plans if I were to ever have any trouble.
I never did, but one guy we were having a dispute with did go around tellin every one I was going to pepper spray him. Which i never was, but it was nice to know he thought I might.


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## rags57078 (Jun 11, 2011)

I never let anyone know what I know and don't know


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

I spent half my life in boxing gyms, karate dojos, wrestling and doing jiu jitsu. It's just something that I fell in love with as a kid and stuck to it. One thing for sure, you are definitely never too old to woop someone's butt. I've seen it too many times.

Two things I've found to be most important in a fight;

1. Fear is a killer. If you are afraid ( I'm not talking about an adrenalin rush, I'm talking about intimidation ) you will lose. In fact, you have already lost. The only way to combat fear is through practice, thats where your sparring sessions and training in karate, etc come in.

2. The person with the most endurance and the most guts, usually wins 90% of the time. The average person can only fight hard for about one and half minutes.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Darntootin said:


> I spent half my life in boxing gyms, karate dojos, wrestling and doing jiu jitsu. It's just something that I fell in love with as a kid and stuck to it. One thing for sure, you are definitely never too old to woop someone's butt. I've seen it too many times.
> 
> Two things I've found to be most important in a fight;
> 
> 1. Fear is a killer. If you are afraid ( I'm not talking about an adrenalin rush, I'm talking about intimidation ) you will lose. In fact, you have already lost. The only way to combat fear is through practice, thats where your sparring sessions and training in karate, etc come in.


 If I may expand a little here. One of the best ways to win a fight is to not get into a fight. If you see someone you think is an impending threat SHOW NO FEAR!!! Look them in the eye as they approach, acknowledge them. Nod, say 'sup to them. Make sure they think you not only don't fear them, but feel they aren't a threat at all. It's a combination of manners and intimidation. 

Now, the trick is to not look hostile like you are trying to punk them. But at the same time do not look at all afraid, even if you are. If you don't seem like you're willing to roll over for them more often than not punks will move on to easier targets.




Darntootin said:


> 2. The person with the most endurance and the most guts, usually wins 90% of the time. *The average person can only fight hard for about one and half minutes.*


 This is why I stress ending the fight as soon as you can. You don't want to spar with these people. You want to destroy them like a WWII carpet bombing run and get away fast. Find weak things and wreck them, then run away!

(This wasn't aimed at you DT, but for the folks that don't know and are following the thread)


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

LOL so when the holstein bull was thrashing his horns and coming thru the fence at me and I kicked him in the nose as hard as I could (former soccer player) and broke my toe....I was just practicing?.....he bled...I hobbled.....I switched to letting him have the muzzle blast of the shotgun after that....he backed off nicely.


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## nightfire (Feb 3, 2012)

"Grab and yank, it's like ripping off a really stubborn bandaid." 

:hysterical::hysterical:ound:ound::hysterical::hysterical:

oh man that made me actually laugh out loud, but it would be super effective!:goodjob:


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

InvalidID said:


> Grab and yank, it's like ripping off a really stubborn bandaid.


Oh my, the visual from reading that! I did a combination gasp and laugh.

We've got 4 black belts in our family, and five crack shots with various firearms. I like that our kids are used to sparring so getting hit doesn't make them fold up and cry. 

I guess I can't say I'm totally ready for anything, since I haven't been in a fight since I was in my 20s. But I'm strong as an ox and not afraid of much. Biting and gouging is my plan.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm glad I could get a chuckle out of the grab and yank. The visual should make sure it is in peoples minds if they ever need it. Works REALLY well, and if you keep it you have DNA for the cops to find the bad guy.

Or, if there are several of them put it in your mouth and pretend to eat it. Crazy goes a long way... :gaptooth:


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Great post Invalid. We must all be prepared for the worst and the unexpected.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

My daughter claims that it only takes 10 pounds of pressure to rip off someone's ear. Funny where a teenager comes up with such knowledge.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> My daughter claims that it only takes 10 pounds of pressure to rip off someone's ear. Funny where a teenager comes up with such knowledge.


Mike Tyson says that ears are easy to remove with teeth too.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Fight dirty. Yup, that's what it's all about.

My last altercation, I spent a bit of time trying to pop an eyeball with my thumb. Was a bit concerned for a second or two that I was going to succeed.

Most of the time, choke holds suit me best.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

The only guy who ever won a fair fight was the winner. I am way too old to fight fair, cheating IS the ace up my sleeve. Don't show up to a gun fight with a gun, shell it from half a mile away!


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## nightfire (Feb 3, 2012)

I heard when I played rugby in college it was 8lbs of pressure to rip off a human ear. Just searching for it, wiki says its actually only 7lbs of pressure! That's really not much. How many lbs of pressure does it take to rip off a human ear


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## julieq (Oct 12, 2008)

DH's great grandfather immigrated from Ireland. He was walking down the street in New York City and a younger man tried to rob him. 

He 'lathered him with his shillelagh'!  (Just like the song from The Quiet Man..)


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

The absolute best response is situational awareness. Avoid getting into a dangerous situation if at all possible. Sure, we all have the right to go where ever we want, when ever we want, wearing what ever we want. However we have to face the fact that there are a few people who don't give a d**n about our rights and violate them at will if they can. You would call someone wearing a meat dress an idiot for walking through a coyote infested forest. I would call someone wearing revealing clothing or conspicuous jewelry the same name if they went wandering through a deserted parking lot.

My martial arts instructor teaches us to first defend ourselves from any incoming harm and then to target the faculties that the attacker would need to harm or pursue us. Especially in the case of a meth head attacker who would not be deterred by pain that would drop a regular, old-style criminal, since the drug makes them unable to feel it. Take out their vision and locomotion. You don't have to gouge the eyes completely out to give them blurred enough vision that they can't see well enough to follow you. A strong poke will do the job nicely for several minutes. A broken knee or ankle will render the attacker unable to chase you. Functional not fancy.

Don't put too much trust in the old stand-bys. All the criminals also know that you plan to poke them with your keys or knee them in the groin, so they have planned defenses against those things. These days, my three favorites are an elbow to the ear or throat, a kick to either side of the knee, or a good, hard kidney punch. And then I'd probably follow those up with a good, hard groin kick just because I'd be so mad they made me have to hurt them in the first place.

But of course, as mentioned above, this is merely for informational purposes and should never be used in real life against real, mean people. You could hurt their dignity and self esteem something terrible by knocking them flat and preventing them from acting out on their antisocial urges.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Why am I picturing a new national trend. One eared muggers... ound:


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

InvalidID said:


> Why am I picturing a new national trend. One eared muggers... ound:


I like to think they would become one eared *former* muggers. If not, let's make them no eared muggers.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Mom_of_Four said:


> Oh my, the visual from reading that! I did a combination gasp and laugh.
> 
> We've got 4 black belts in our family, and five crack shots with various firearms. I like that our kids are used to sparring so getting hit doesn't make them fold up and cry.
> 
> I guess I can't say I'm totally ready for anything, since I haven't been in a fight since I was in my 20s. But I'm strong as an ox and not afraid of much. Biting and gouging is my plan.


DS has been taking taikwondo since he was 4, so I know what you mean about not folding up and crying if he gets hit. DH is teaching him to fire weapons now.


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

I wrestle with my DS12 a lot. He does not like to hit people because he is "scared of really hurting them". Le Sigh  Anyway, I've told him the whole point to hitting someone is to really hurt them. 

He's 5'7 and 140 lbs and he's 12. He's the biggest boy in his class so I think that's where the fear of it comes from.

I have also told him to fight dirty because in a real fight there is no such thing as fighting fair.

I carry my keys in between my fingers when in a parking lot. I am very observant about my surroundings. I will scream my fool head off if attacked.


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## lathermaker (May 7, 2010)

My husband knows this old guy (80+) from his home town. A couple of punk kids broke into his house and beat him up with his cane. They stole what guns and valuables they could grab quickly then left him for dead. Well, the old guy is as tough as an old shoe horn. He was hurt, but not so bad that he had to go to the Hospital.

Well, the punks came back a couple nights later to see what else they could steal. On the first go-around they missed a .45 he had under his mattress.....when the cops picked them up, one SOB was missing most of his hand, the other had a rather large hole in his leg. I say BRAVO to the old guy! He never quit trying to defend himself!


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

I lost a cousin a few years back. He was 71. At the service one lady he worked with said he came in one time and his hands were skinned up and swollen. She asked what happened and he said some 20 something tried to mug him in the parking lot the night before. He put the mugger in the hospital. 
Don't mess with old cowboys, too old and stove up to run so they just beat the devil out of you, or worse.
Ed


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## Mutti (Sep 7, 2002)

My tip is WEAR SHOES. Real shoes, not crocs or flip-flops. How can you run away in them? Everytime I see a group of young folks on TV they all seem to be wearing flip-flops and all I can think is what if some sicko grabbed them? And the business gals in their 4" heels...still remember watching 9/11 and women running in stocking feet away from the falling buildings. I always wear sturdy boots or tie shoes when I'm out in the world.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Mutti said:


> My tip is WEAR SHOES. Real shoes, not crocs or flip-flops. How can you run away in them? Everytime I see a group of young folks on TV they all seem to be wearing flip-flops and all I can think is what if some sicko grabbed them? And the business gals in their 4" heels...still remember watching 9/11 and women running in stocking feet away from the falling buildings. I always wear sturdy boots or tie shoes when I'm out in the world.


Good tip. Good for kicking with, too.


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Oh hell,
Invalid ID I got to say its been years scince, I added anything to my list of dirty fighting! but skinning off an ear on a miscreant is just too good! The DNA is a good Idea and it will bleed spectacularly marking them and there surounding well and it would be very hard to convince a judge that it wasn't him doing the mugging!
I've heard of the Israely fighting school before with admiration from various martial artists I trust but have never had the oportunity to try it out, akido's always been my favorite, but its more of a gentlmans game it only gives the bad guy the opportunity to hurt himself, but your right the only win is throu.
I cannot think of a time when I was coping that this happend without someone starting or just cutting it with a sharp knife, but would not discount how effective an attack it might be maybe after the slap to either side of head to burat eardrums. I cannot imagine having the opportunity without stunning them first.
Dutch


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Dutch 106 said:


> Oh hell,
> Invalid ID I got to say its been years scince, I added anything to my list of dirty fighting! but skinning off an ear on a miscreant is just too good! The DNA is a good Idea and it will bleed spectacularly marking them and there surounding well and it would be very hard to convince a judge that it wasn't him doing the mugging!
> I've heard of the Israely fighting school before with admiration from various martial artists I trust but have never had the oportunity to try it out, akido's always been my favorite, but its more of a gentlmans game it only gives the bad guy the opportunity to hurt himself, but your right the only win is throu.
> I cannot think of a time when I was coping that this happend without someone starting or just cutting it with a sharp knife, but would not discount how effective an attack it might be maybe after the slap to either side of head to burat eardrums. I cannot imagine having the opportunity without stunning them first.
> Dutch


 I learned some of the Aikido system when I was kickboxing, then a little more when I was learning Krav Maga. Mostly as a way to deflect strikes and put the combatant in a position of weakness. Striking is all about angles. You want to position your hips facing the other guy, but you want his hips facing away from you, preferably you'd end up on his weak side.

Also works well as a check to various throws. I've found that if and when you find yourself being thrown it's often best to use the strength and motion of the thrower to propel yourself away. This often throws the combatant off balance (He's expecting resistance and uses far more strength than required) giving you a clear line of attack or an opening to flee.

The ear rip is open more often than you might think when street fighting. SWIM (someone who isn't me...wink) was in a fight in Philly once where the attacker jumped him and had an arm against his throat and pinned to a wall. With the free hand SWIM reached for the ear (attacker guarded his eyes and face) and grabbed. Once SWIM had the ear the attacker instinctively tried to force the hand away from his head, adding force to the ear rip. Attack over, SWIM ran away tossing the ear in a gutter.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Try and end fight in 1st 10seconds by doing the going for the most painful places you can-kneecaps-eyes-ears-etc....

ANYTHING can be a weapon-don't think so-let me drive a rolled up newspaper into your throat-chest-stomach,etc...

There are NO rules......(except have a gun in a gunfight)


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Ross said:


> The only guy who ever won a fair fight was the winner. I am way too old to fight fair, cheating IS the ace up my sleeve. Don't show up to a gun fight with a gun, shell it from half a mile away!


There you go....

I'd not survive a wrasslin match right now with a six year old... one of my shoulder muscles is torn, and everytime it's about ready to heal, I re-tear it.

I'll wrassle with someone, after six rounds of 300gr XTP hollowpoints have spoken.

I never place myself in situations where I might get thugged (except one local courthouse, where the 'wusses' require you to disarm first, and of course, it's in the thuggy part of town, and the thugs circle the courthouse like a bunch of wolves on an injured caribou)...

I wouldn't worry about saving DNA.... figure there'd be pools of it lying around... or at least on the guard dog's fur...

agree with fighting dirty.... maim the sob, and try to kill em with whatever you have handy.... a ball point pen can be mightier than the sword... if stuck in the right places...


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Invalid, SWIM gets around alot. He's always believed in the adage "if he can't walk, he can't win". Looking a person straight in the eye while taking out a knee has been proven a winning tactic. It doesn't take great strength, as knees aren't meant to be bent sideways or backwards. Even a close miss works. Even a meth-head can't hop as fast as this old man can run.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Invalid, SWIM gets around alot. He's always believed in the adage "if he can't walk, he can't win". Looking a person straight in the eye while taking out a knee has been proven a winning tactic. It doesn't take great strength, as knees aren't meant to be bent sideways or backwards. Even a close miss works. Even a meth-head can't hop as fast as this old man can run.


 Indeed! Can't walk, breath, see... can't fight.


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## KMA1 (Dec 9, 2006)

Invalid ID, 

I am glad to see this thread. It bothers me when people misput absolute faith in the fact that they have a weapon. Most who do so probably don't practice regularly and have never practiced drawing. There are so many ways of defending yourself, and everyone should know the concepts and practice. The other thing I see is people tend to underestimate the training and experience of the bad guys. Most of them are career criminalsand have been around the block a few times. They may not have of the breadth of experience someone with training has, but they may have one or two attacks that have worked well for them. In any self defense situation, the outcome should be determined in the first 2 or 3 seconds. Nobody is perfect and the longer a combat lasts the greater the chance of being hurt.

KMA1


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Oh, well these days
I'd much rather handle miscreants with a firearm, first rule of gunfights is have a gun! But Situational awareness is the critical item get a traffic ticket you weren't paying enough attention! (just got caught running a red light last year and I'm still wearing myself out being over sensative to traffic). 
But I'm no were as tough pysicly today, as I was at 22 fresh out of Ranger school! I'm not likely to give up either but I really slow to heal after getting beat up these days to, so I try and out think the random scum who cause problems.
My biggest problem is consitantly having the white knight syndrome where I have to ride to the defense of whoever (I remember just how incredulus the Black guy was when I vaulted a rail to stand with him to drive off 4 white attackers) dumb dumb dumb if I had quietly walked up behind and started slapping the sides of there heads, I would not have gotten beaten nearly so bad!
Being able to push a 45 over the railing and telling the dummies to run would have been much more Effective.
Dutch
Dutch


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> The other thing I see is people tend to* underestimate* the training and experience of *the bad guys*


They are doing that when they think they can take them out with some fancy Kung Fu moves too


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> They are doing that when they think they can take them out with some fancy Kung Fu moves too


 What's the option if you can't carry or can't reach a gun? Roll over and die?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

InvalidID said:


> What's the option if you can't carry or can't reach a gun? Roll over and die?


 
Have another weapon, or *avoid *the situations altogether.
It's not all that hard to do

Many keep saying "people won't practice enough with a weapon"

Here's a fact: They won't PRACTICE without one either.
They will mostly* talk* about what they will do, but will never actually TRAIN to do it.

You're better off to have a weapon than to *think* you can win without one


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

I have following this thread, and for many years I had it drilled into me by my dad and several others, that since I am bigger than most folks - that I should not try to bend, fold, or mutilate others by using my hands/ feet/ or with other methods - as I was trained to do in the Marine Corps. 

I did get into trouble for doing that while I was active duty, and had an altercation in Palm Springs with a fellow Marine against a few civilians, while on leave one weekend long ago. I walked away, but not fast enough to get away from the Police.

It does not mean that I am having delusions of trying to be Rambo, John Wayne, or G.I. Joe!

At this point in my life, I don't think that I would be charged with assault and battery, since I can be out run by a 5 year old - due to my leg injury. So I would have to stand my ground, and do my very best to defend myself and be the last one standing/ or be able to remove myself from the field of battle under my own power.

There are some advantages to being 6'4" tall and being able to look intimidating, while acting all Marine Corps Crazy!


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

I used to teach hand to hand combat. So I know how to fight. I learned it in the military and some after I retired. I still would not go unarmed but if I didn't have cause to shoot somebody else but only wanted to make them stop hitting me I could do that also. Everything is a weapon even your attitude. If you don't show fear in the first place you may not have to fight at all. Most street punks need to have you afraid of them to do what they do.


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## KMA1 (Dec 9, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> They are doing that when they think they can take them out with some fancy Kung Fu moves too


Depends on the level of experience and training one has. It also depends on what your definition of "fancy" is. Some without training see simple techniques as "fancy Kung Fu", others and this is the most common thing are only talking about something they saw on Kung Fu theater.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Have another weapon, or *avoid *the situations altogether.
> It's not all that hard to do
> 
> Many keep saying "people won't practice enough with a weapon"
> ...


 No one here has ever suggested you shouldn't have a weapon. Pay attention. Just because you have a weapon doesn't mean you'll be able to use it when you need it most. Just because you own a weapon doesn't mean you'll have it when you need it either, there are plenty of places you won't have that weapon.

Better to know how to fight and not need to than to need to fight and not know how.


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## KMA1 (Dec 9, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Have another weapon, or *avoid *the situations altogether.
> It's not all that hard to do
> 
> Many keep saying "people won't practice enough with a weapon"
> ...


Well, those people that will not train unarmed or armed are the ones that are not prepared for any encounter requiring self defense.

Those that will only train with a firearm are only prepared to defend themselves in the event that they are able to get to, draw and effectively use a firearm. In other words, only if things work perfectly to their advantage. Unlikely if you are not the agressor. Not so much in the real word.

That was and remains my original point.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

A few years ago I went to a small convention (very small, less than 150 people) with a friend that teaches basic self defense. There were police, martial arts instructors, even a few YMCA folks there. All were somehow in the business of teaching basic self defense to folks.

The woman that went on before my buddy looked a lot like a Hispanic Madelin Albright. Clearly a very liberal woman she explained that it is best to give the attacker whatever they want and avoid confrontation. It was her opinion that teaching people to fight was dangerous because it would give people confidence to defend themselves, which could get them hurt. If they want your money, give it to them. If they are trying to rape you try to get them to use a condom.... 

After she left the stage my friend walks up to the podium laughing himself stupid. He starts telling the crowd that if a person is so hard up they hope to get raped that's up to them. He went on to talk about giving in and doing whatever the criminals want is the advice a mugger or muggers mother would give. 

The end point being it's best to know how to defend yourself. You never know what can happen and why. I agree with this and figure the bulk of the folks on this thread do as well. I bring this up only because BFF got me thinking back to that moment with his avoid the situation altogether comment. That was one of the 'best practices' that everyone at the conference pushed. The difference was one of them relied on it a lot more than the rest. Most of us would prefer layers of defense, each one being a fall back to the last.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

> Most of us would prefer layers of defense, each one being a fall back to the last.


That's a good way to put it. I like to have backups, and backups to my backups.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

Of course, avoidance and situational awareness are the first, safest, easiest, and best options. But they aren't always an option. In those cases, it is great if you have access to a gun, are trained in how to use it, and able to do so at the time you need it. 

But that isn't always an option either. So I train in martial arts to give myself other options.

One one hand, I understand BFF's disdain for "fancy Kung Fu training". Certainly most of what we see in the media is crap when it comes to self defense. I also have my reservations about the more traditional martial arts systems that are based primarily on combat styles and weapons that are no longer valid. 

However, to disregard all martial arts systems due to the flaws perpetrated by Hollywood or because some systems now days focus more on the "art" part of "martial arts" is very short-sighted.

I just spent a couple of hours today practicing my gun and knife disarms in preparation for my upcoming certification test to teach women's self defense classes. Nothing fancy, thank you very much. Just as effective as possible. I will also have to pass a grappling portion of the test (on ground fighting), since many attacks against women end up on the ground. Fancy? No. Effective? Yes. My instructor is ex-military, ex-law enforcement. He knows what he is talking about.

Last night I practiced how to stop an attacker (and by this, I mean stop him cold) with a broomstick, shovel handle, crowbar, or piece of pipe. Nothing fancy. No elaborate swords or throwing stars, no spins or flashy movements. We train to be very precise and not waste any time or movement. 

What we do usually doesn't even last long enough to be considered "fancy". The only time it is slow enough to really see is when it is slowed down during the learning phase of training or when we are doing light contact sparring so we can learn how to get the timing right. Our instructor encourages us to be able to finish the fight in 3 to 15 seconds.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Yeah, fighting dirty is nothing like "fancy kung fu." I have a brother who moved to Taiwan to study kung fu, and I could take him down very fast if I were willing to seriously hurt him. He keeps telling me, "Wait five years and I'll destroy you." OK, I'll wait.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

ryanthomas said:


> Yeah, fighting dirty is nothing like "fancy kung fu." I have a brother who moved to Taiwan to study kung fu, and I could take him down very fast if I were willing to seriously hurt him. He keeps telling me, "Wait five years and I'll destroy you." OK, I'll wait.


 I beat up a guy in San Diego several years ago on my lunch break. He was down near Mission Bay practicing his Kung Fu. Real Kung Fu, he was even dressed up and had the long pole-arm with a flag and everything. I couldn't help but laugh, so he called me out.

Took him 5 for 5 times just fighting dirty. He kept insisting you can't do that! Um... I just did.

ETA: The guys I was eating with thought I was crazy at first, then thought I was a jerk for letting it go 5 rounds. Of course they all wanted to know how to do that... LOL


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

KMA1 said:


> *Depends on* *the level of experience and training one has*. It also depends on what your definition of "fancy" is. Some without training see simple techniques as "fancy Kung Fu", others and this is the most common thing are *only talking about something they saw on Kung Fu theater*.


That's my whole point.

Some keep saying having a gun makes you "too confident", yet expect the *AVERAGE* person to be a martial artist instead.

"Simple techniques" *aren't* simple until you've *practiced *for years and kept up your *strength and speed*.

Those talking about how "easy" it is to take somebody out have most likely never* really* done it.


My brother in law is *twice my size* and has a* Black Belt* in Karate

It won't do him any good if I double tap him from 15 yds away with a 40 cal , now will it?


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

ovsfarm said:


> Last night I practiced how to stop an attacker (and by this, I mean stop him cold) with a broomstick, shovel handle, crowbar, or piece of pipe. Nothing fancy. No elaborate swords or throwing stars, no spins or flashy movements. We train to be very precise and not waste any time or movement.
> 
> What we do usually doesn't even last long enough to be considered "fancy". The only time it is slow enough to really see is when it is slowed down during the learning phase of training or when we are doing light contact sparring so we can learn how to get the timing right. Our instructor encourages us to be able to finish the fight in 3 to 15 seconds.


Several years ago a man tried to robe me. He used a broomstick to hit me over the back of my head and when he did I turned around and took the broomstick away from had asked what was he doing. The last time I saw him he was running away and I never saw him again. Once I had the broomstick in my hands I could have killed him with it easy.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

I totally agree with this.

I'm of the opinion that there is so much gun violence these days because the knowledge of solving problems with the fist has been drummed out of this. A good fist fight or two teaches valuable lessons whether you win or lose.

Seriously.

I've been in several situations where an armed opponent thought their weapon made them invulnerable to me, and they found themselves on the ground, in pain, and gasping for air as a consequence. On some of these occasions I was armed, on others I wasn't, but why resort to weapons if no weapon is needed?


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## KMA1 (Dec 9, 2006)

Not sure how to break the quote up so some of my responses are inside the quote.



Bearfootfarm said:


> That's my whole point.
> 
> Some keep saying having a gun makes you "too confident", yet expect the *AVERAGE* person to be a martial artist instead.
> 
> ...


Probably not from 15 yards. But what if he swings a piece of 2x4 with nails in it at your head as you walk around the corner of a building? What if grabs you in a choke and controls your gun hand from behind? What if he sticks a gun of his own in your face or to your back before you have time to complete your draw? Or a knife? What if he uses and underhand stab to your gut as you pass in a convenience store? What if you wake up from a deep sleep in your bed with your wife just as he swings a baseball bat at you? What will you do in these cases if your only line of defense is a firearm. These are all real situations that happened. They happen every day. 

It would be great if our situational awareness was 110% all the time and we caught everything. But that does not happen in the real world.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's my whole point.
> 
> Some keep saying having a gun makes you "too confident", yet expect the *AVERAGE* person to be a martial artist instead.
> 
> ...



That's all fine and good at 15 yards, or even 5 yards. In real life, however, the bad guy is usually much, much closer before you know he's a bad guy. Quite often, you don't know he's a bad guy, or sometimes even that he's there until there's a gun or a knife in contact with you or the violence has already started. This has been the case in each of the incidents I've experienced - 5 of them, only one of which actually resulted in me being robbed or injured. 

I'm no martial artist by any stretch of the definition. I was in a few fist fights during my school boy years, had a little bit of informal training, and a bit of military training, but don't consider myself a fighter. In three of the five incidents, I was armed with a firearm, but 'decided' against using it, either because I didn't feel it necessary, or an unarmed response was faster and more expedient and equally effective.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

I certainly hadn't trained for years the first time I saved myself from a lunatic with a knife. I had never been in a real fight in my life until that point, and I had just finished an excruciating course of chemotherapy so I was neither strong nor fast. But I managed. Most of us are not going to walk around with a 30 foot bubble around us to keep people from getting too close. And most of us also occasionally go to places where it isn't legal to carry a firearm. Some of us ignore the law, but I imagine most of us don't think that's wise.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I certainly *hadn't trained* for years the first time I saved myself from a lunatic with a knife. I had *never been in a real fight* in my life until that point, and I had just finished an excruciating course of chemotherapy so I was neither strong nor fast. But *I managed*


You happened to get* lucky.*
That's the best anyone can hope for



> But what if he swings a piece of 2x4 with nails in it at your head as you walk around the corner of a building? What if grabs you in a choke and controls your gun hand from behind? What if he sticks a gun of his own in your face or to your back before you have time to complete your draw? Or a knife? What if he uses and underhand stab to your gut as you pass in a convenience store? What if you wake up from a deep sleep in your bed with your wife just as he swings a baseball bat at you? What will you do in these cases if your only line of defense is a firearm. These are all real situations that happened. They happen every day


Those are all *no win situations* no matter what your "plan", and all brought about by a PRIOR mistake

*Fantasy *scenarios always turn out the way you want.
Life doesn't work that way


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You happened to get* lucky.*
> That's the best anyone can hope for
> 
> 
> ...


 If you don't want to train, prepare, or otherwise defend yourself in a hand to hand situation then don't. Why crap on others that do? In fact, why are you even on this thread? You aren't helping anyone or adding anything useful. All you're doing is complaining about folks that want to try and better themselves.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You happened to get* lucky.*
> That's the best anyone can hope for


Yeah, luck played a part, but it wasn't pure luck. It was the willingness to fight rather than simply give up because I didn't have an ideal weapon (gun) and situation (stationary target 7 yards away). Nothing wrong with luck, and training increases luck.

"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." -Seneca


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

I don't know any fancy Kung Fu moves. What I do know is, to avoid, to run and if all else fails no man likes to be kneed in the dangly bits. I also know not to go after an attacker with a baseball bat swinging but to jab them with it and that any weapon can be used against you.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

whiskeylivewire said:


> I don't know any fancy Kung Fu moves. What I do know is, to avoid, to run and if all else fails no man likes to be kneed in the dangly bits. I also know not to go after an attacker with a baseball bat swinging but to jab them with it and that any weapon can be used against you.


 Swinging down with a bat is ok, like he's down and getting back up. Swing for the fences. Swinging up is bad and almost never works, as in you're down and he's above you. Swinging sideways is bad if he's looking, as in you're both standing up.


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## KMA1 (Dec 9, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Those are all *no win situations* no matter what your "plan", and all brought about by a PRIOR mistake
> 
> *Fantasy *scenarios always turn out the way you want.
> Life doesn't work that way



Well, whether they were brought about by mistake or not is debatable. I suppose you could post a watch every night if you can't afford a home alarm system. But I can assure you that each of these incidents is very real and happened to real people. And in each of these cases, the very real person was able to protect himself (and the wife in one) without serious injury. 

You are right that life doesn't always work out the way you want. But proper preparation can greatly increase your chances of success. Failing to prepare is preparing to fail. 

If you don't want to prepare, don't. No skin off anyone's nose. No one but you will live with the consequences of your decisions. I am happy to live with mine. But why go on a forum that is all about preparing for survival and poopoo those that do prepare.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

InvalidID said:


> If you don't want to train, prepare, or otherwise defend yourself in a hand to hand situation then don't.
> *Why crap on others that do?* In fact, why are you even on this thread?
> You aren't helping anyone or adding anything useful. *All you're doing is complaining about folks that want to try and better themselves*.


Who started crapping on those who TRAINED with weapons?

I'm not complaining.
I'm not saying "don't do it"
I'm just statiing the truth that *MOST* people aren't going to train *enough to make a difference.*

Go back to my "people at the mall" example

And you don't know how* I've* "trained or prepared", so all that is irrelevant
I'm just telliing you what I've *observed* over a lifetime

If you happen to disagree..... OH WELL. :shrug:


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

I don't recall anyone saying anything against owning guns and training with them; but guns are not the be all/end all. To say most people will not train enough is probably true. I think the point of this thread was to encourage people not to be part of "most people."


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## KMA1 (Dec 9, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Who started crapping on those who TRAINED with weapons?
> 
> I'm not complaining.
> I'm not saying "don't do it"
> ...


I just went back through the thread and I didn't see anyone poopooing those who trained with weapons (guns or otherwise). 

It is true that most people don't train enough to make a difference, unarmed, armed with improvised weapons, blades or firearms. However, you appear to be saying with your mall example that just because most people don't train, no one should bother. I hope that those that are regulars here are better prepared in every way than the common mall inhabitant. There is a reason they are often refered to as sheeple.


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

InvalidID said:


> Swinging down with a bat is ok, like he's down and getting back up. Swing for the fences. Swinging up is bad and almost never works, as in you're down and he's above you. Swinging sideways is bad if he's looking, as in you're both standing up.


Thanks for the tips. I know I for sure need to train more with firearms.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

InvalidID said:


> If you don't want to train, prepare, or otherwise defend yourself in a hand to hand situation then don't. Why crap on others that do? In fact, why are you even on this thread? You aren't helping anyone or adding anything useful. All you're doing is complaining about folks that want to try and better themselves.


I though a class of INS agents how to defend themselves. I did this at Fort Chaffee when the Cubans were their. I did this in plain sight of the Cubans and from that time until they left they didn't have as much trouble with them. Before then they would go in bunches of 7 or more to protect them self. I should them some of the dirty fighting and some moves to take somebody off their feet and how to hold them down. Once you understand this you don't have to practice.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> *It is true that most people don't train enough to make a difference*, unarmed, armed with improvised weapons, blades or firearms.
> However, *you appear* to be saying with your mall example that just because most people don't train,* no one should bother*


I don't know why you say it "appears" that way when Ive clearly said that's not what I mean.

You confirmed EXACTLY what I said with your first sentence.
The gun comments were the reason the entire *subject* got started, but not necessarily on THIS thread.

The premise was having a gun could *make one "overconfident*"
I think the *same thing* about the "self defense" classes

It's an even MORE false sense of security to *MOST* people
They'd be better off to learn how to AVOID situations.

Nothing more, nothing less

It's just reality, not matter how many *individual* ancedotes one comes up with.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I don't know why you say it "appears" that way when Ive clearly said that's not what I mean.
> 
> You confirmed EXACTLY what I said with your first sentence.
> The gun comments were the reason the entire *subject* got started, but not necessarily on THIS thread.
> ...


You are generally correct here. A few karate classes has a tendency to make small men think that they are actually big men, the same as a gun does. About the only thing I can say on behalf of the karate kid is that he actually has gone to some classes.

The karate kid and the bad guy with a gun have another thing in common, and that is that they are both relying heavily on intimidation. The karate kid expects his cool stance and Bruce Lee sound effects, and the bad guy with a gun or knife expects just the presence of the gun to instill fear in their victim. Simply not succumbing to fear and intimidation means that you have already started the process of defeating your opponent. If you follow this up by thinking tactically, you have gone even further.

The simple truth is that most KK's (karate kids) never wore a brown belt, let alone a black belt, and most BGWG (bad guys with gun) have ever had any kind of fire arms training.

Using one of my own experiences as an example, I was once mugged at gun point by two men while I was walking home from work. One had a gun, and he stuck it right in my face - maybe an inch from my nose. The other guy moved behind me, and was trying to get my wallet out of my back pocket.

I honestly can't say why I wasn't afraid. I was very lucid and time seemed to move in slow motion - I even registered the caliber of the pistol the guy had pointed at me. All I can chalk it up to is being raised with 'die with your boots on' mentality. Being lucid, I realized that with the gun so close to me, and the holder as well, all I had to do was knock the gun one way and move my head the other and it wouldn't be pointing at me. I did this, and while the gun man still had a look of surprise on his face, I punched him in the nose as hard as I could. Time was still moving in slow motion, and I felt the cartilage of his nose collapse under my fist, and watched him fall to the ground. 

The second guy had just barely managed to get his hand into my pocket. I dropped low, which pulled him off balance. I immediate stood back up, and elbowed him away from me as I did so. This pushed him away from me and kept him off balance. I kicked him in the chest as hard as I could, and I'm pretty sure I cracked some ribs. I don't know for sure though, because then I ran. When I got home, my Uncle was there, and he insisted that I call the cops. The cops came and found the guys, and I ID'd them in the backseat of their car. They tried to convince the cop that I had attacked them rather than the other way around, but the cop didn't buy it, and that was the end of the story.

So yeah, there was luck involved in this situation, no doubt about it. Luck wouldn't have mattered at all though if I had been to afraid to act or think.


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