# Junkyard Dog Collars



## rileyjo (Feb 14, 2005)

On saturday night, we had coyotes come into the sheep fields just after dusk.
We dont keep LGD's but we have 5 border collies and 3 of them are usually out of patrol. They are useful at discouraging foxes and raccoons and scary chipmunks. I also have a gander that doubles as a car alarm.

My dogs are not often out at night but it was a nice evening and I was still outside gardening around the house. Two of the dogs went down to check out the commotion in the sheep fields. The bigger dog just barked and ran back up the house. The other dog, altho deaf, has dealt with coyotes before and either challenged them or the coyotes launched a stealth attack on him. 

We heard the fight and went down the fields to check it out. I saw one coyote go slinking thru my big garden and saw eyeshine in the fencerow. My border collie had made it back to the porch. He'd taken quite a beating and was covered in blood. He had 8 tooth punctures but no tearing of the skin.
The main damage was to his neck where the coyotes had tried to asphyxiate him by clutching his windpipe. I had just installed a new heavy collar on him and I'm convinced it saved his life. Four days later, he is on the mend but his throat is still so swollen that he can only lap broth. 

For those of you who use dogs as LGD's, I'd like you to think about the collars your dogs are wearing. I'm tempted to buy everyone big spiky junkyard dog collars. A thin collar or light chain would have not been enough to protect my dog. These urban coyotes are nasty beasts and they mean business.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

You might consider getting a lgd to protect your border collies. I have yet to see one of my lgd's injured by a coyote, I think his size scares them off. I have seen border collie size dogs killed by coyotes. Looks like your dog was lucky this time. Keep an eye on him for mange, or other skin issues. A friend of mine battled skin problems with her dog for months after a coyote attack.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Get an LGD.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

If you had an LGD or better yet two, you wouldn't have to worry about a coyote hurting them. In fact, if you have more than one LGD, you don't even have to worry about mountain lions or wolves hurting them. One, maybe a pack of wolves could injure, but I have never heard of more than one being attacked and hurt.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

Around here border collies are use more and more for cattle - but they're not left to defend against coyotes.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I am glad your collie is okay..sounds like he put up a good fight.
However everyone above is correct...you need an LGD to protect your dogs and your sheep along with your duck....they will be back and they already tested the waters.
Collies are herding dogs...and any family pet will do what they can to protect and the smarter ones head to the porch.

I would hate to hear they came back and hurt your livestock or pets....please consider an LGD and since their were 2 coyotes coming to feast...I would have at least 2 LGD"S then they can help each other in case they get tagged teamed.


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## FoxyWench (Jan 22, 2010)

you have a VERY lucky collie, ive known many a dog that size killed by as few as 2 coyotes...

i agree with the others, id personally be adding a LGD to the group if for no other reason than a back up...

in terms of collars a wide thick leather band (not so wide that its uncomfortable) with good metal pyramid studs are generally perfect, ive found spikes are overkill for the majority of dogs and can cause more injuries to the dog wearing it...whereas the metal pyramid studs act more like chainmaile.

but yeah...id be adding an lgd since your coyotes have proven to be unafraid of the collies.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Just curious about the collars, has anybody had problems with the lgd getting his collar caught. Mine does not seem to keep a collar on.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

I don't keep collars on my Anatolians at all. If someone wants to see their rabies tags, they can step into my office. 

Yes, you need an Lgd or two. Border collies are not big enough to protect even themselves from coyotes, much less sheep. 

PM me. I might have your solution.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Judy in IN said:


> I don't keep collars on my Anatolians at all. If someone wants to see their rabies tags, they can step into my office.
> 
> Yes, you need an Lgd or two. Border collies are not big enough to protect even themselves from coyotes, much less sheep.
> 
> PM me. I might have your solution.


I have two neighbors who have lost multiple Australian Shepards and Heelers to coyotes. They EAT them, around here.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Here is a thread about this discussion on dogs wearing spiked thick collars
its about 4 pgs back..but heres the link maybe this will help.



http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=387066


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

www.turkishdogcollars.com samples of spiked collars here.

I have bought from them. My dogs are featured modeling some of them ;~) . The belled collars are nice you can hear where your dogs are and I think they like it too.

As for what you call 'junkyard dog' collars....the term in Spain is the _Carlanca_.

Spiked collars are often worn in Turkey and in Spain on their guard dogs (Spanish Mastiffs, Kangal, Boz Shepherd, etc.). Also, in other countries as well....best used in large range operations. They can be effective however IMHO what is really the most effective solution is running the right number of dogs for what you have to protect.

You were fortunate this time....but again, I'd buy an LGD...


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## rileyjo (Feb 14, 2005)

My dogs and all livestock come in at night. We have lost some sheep to daytime attacks but that has happened in the back fields and not this close to the house. We do have a donkey and a canine hating horse out in the fields. My border collies are expected to stay out of the sheep fields unless they are asked to be in there by me.

I'm not a fan of LGd's from what I've seen of them. Endless barking and wandering about is what I've experienced from neighbours who have had them. My injured dog is also deaf which puts him at a great disadvantage. I'd say that we were indeed very lucky this time. 

I'm from the far north and the coyotes there have to compete with the timber wolves. There is an abundance of natural food and they are shy of contact with humans. Now that I'm close to an urban centre, I'm seeing much more aggressive behaviour from the yotes. This pack is coming within a stones throw of the house. My deaf dog and a good dog that I had would kill the northern coyotes and lift their leg and pee on them before sauntering back to the porch. I lost the other border collie to a brain tumour last year.

There was a recent article in the paper about a sheep farmer who has lost 40 sheep and had 3 Pyr's killed in the last year by packs. My boyfriend is a Livestock Evaluator for the city. He does the paperwork for the gov't claims. The urban coyote problem is getting out of control and they need to be culled hard. 

In light of this, I'll be looking at how I manage my dogs for farmwork.


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## FoxyWench (Jan 22, 2010)

i know some lgd breeds arnt as prone to wandering or talkative as others...
mabe looking into a kangal, im told they are less barky and more "home bodies" than the great prys


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

So you've had sheep killed in the pasture?...I've lost one...and that was enough for me.


I wish you and your livestock good luck.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

> I'm not a fan of LGD's....


I raise them love them, can't live without them but will also be the first one to tell you some folks should steer clear of them, they don't have the makeup to deal with LGD's and should stick to other forms of protection for their livestock.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

When my neighbor's dog was attacked , his wounds covered his back, a collar wouldn't have helped. He was also travelling with a rotweiller who wasn't injured. The Rot made it back home, the other dog didn't. He was found in a corn field nearby unable to walk. It was lucky she found him and has completely recovered from his wounds.
I keep my border collies near the house within 6 foot fencing at night just for peace of mind. I think they would take on a coyote if given the chance, but I just don't want them injured or killed.


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## rileyjo (Feb 14, 2005)

I've never owned an LGD, just had a neighbour who never took the time to raise and care for one properly and they became a neighbourhood nusiance.
I lived on 400 acres, my neighbour east had 600 acres and the folks across the road owned 900 acres. The neighbour to the west had a Pyr wanted to patrol all that land and felt the need to protect My sheep from me and my own dogs. It got annoying really fast.
LGD's might be great but since we use rotational paddocks over 70 acres I'm not sure how an LGD can be out in the far field with the sheep and prevent coyotes from harrassing my dogs in the market garden/ house yard at the same time.

I'm open to being educated about LGD's or I wouldnt be reading this forum. I understand that they need to bark to do their job but how do you keep them home where they belong?


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

There are different breeds of LGD's. Great Pyrs need large acreage, others don't. Research the different breeds. Pyrs use their bark. The barking interrupts the coyote's stalking sequence. The predators generally don't want the hassle of fighting with a dog, they just want dinner and will avoid farms with a large bark. However, if the coyotes ( my guess is they are coy-dogs) aren't being scared off by the family dogs, a bark may not bother them. In this case, you want a harder dog. But, a harder dog can be a liability. You need a good balance for your situation.

You can also put your money into hiring a professional hunter.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

When my Anatolians bark, I go look. They just don't bark for the heck of it. If it's a seriious threat, they are more prone to go attack the threat, rather than warn it off. 

When I had Pyrs, there was a LOT of night barking. After I bought my first Anatolian, I started finding dead raccoons, dead skunks, etc. The funniest thing I ever saw was my Anatolian chasing a turkey buzzard across the pasture. It had been attracted to a big boar **** she had killed. The thing was squawking and running across the pasture trying to get airborne, with the dog right behind it jerking out tailfeathers. 

Rileyjo, 

Bond your dogs to the sheep and not the property. Rotate them with the sheep before they are 6 months old. You want flock guardians; not land guardians. Bonding them to the sheep will also fix the problem of roaming.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

A thought about these coyotes. Are you sure they were not wolves? That seems a bit much for coyotes to take out a Pyr, unless each dog was alone with the flock.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I'm not sure how an LGD can be out in the far field with the sheep and* prevent coyotes from harrassing my dogs* in the market garden/ house yard at the same time.
> 
> *They won't "protect" other dogs, but only deter predators by their presence*
> 
> I'm open to being educated about LGD's or I wouldnt be reading this forum. I understand that they need to bark to do their job but *how do you keep them home *where they belong?


*You keep them "where they belong" with fences, just like you keep your livestock from roaming*

LGD's shouldn't be free roaming

http://www.bountifulfarm.com/lgd_seminar.htm


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Predator Management

When we first moved onto this farm in 1985 wild predators were a non issue. One livestock guard dog easily controlled the few fox and coyotes that lived in the area. Due to a decline in sport hunting and trapping, the coyote population has risen considerably during the 90's now requiring four guard dogs to keep coyote depredation under control. Also the gray wolf has been given special protection and rapidly expanded throughout Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan and beyond. Despite the fact that experts declared wolves would never inhabit this area, wolves proved them wrong and moved into our neighborhood in 1991. The largest documented wolf pack in Minnesota was observed about 10 miles from our farm in 1998.

"Minnesota's largest wolf pack was discovered only recently --- and far from the middle of the wilderness. John Stewart of Olgilvie, Minnesota, was bow hunting for deer between Hinckley and Highway 65 north of Mora during the fall of 1998. Perched in a tree stand, Stewart spotted a "wave of wolves" approaching.

"I started counting as accurately as I could under the circumstances. Three, seven, ten, to the front and sides; I turned --- 13, 17, 20!" he said. "As the main group moved on, three stragglers appeared." This unusual pack later sauntered up the driveway of nearby seasonal resident Shirley Kwapick some four and a half miles away, also in broad daylight.

Excerpt from L. David Mech's 2000 book "The Wolves of Minnesota...Howl in the Heartland" p 57.

We experienced devastating losses exceeding $10,000 the following spring.

Once again we needed to boost our dog numbers. Presently 8 livestock guard dogs seem to be able to dissuade packs of 3 to 5 wolves that check us out from time to time. Meet the guardians who are hard at work protecting the flock from predators.


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## fordson major (Jul 12, 2003)

Judy in IN said:


> A thought about these coyotes. Are you sure they were not wolves? That seems a bit much for coyotes to take out a Pyr, unless each dog was alone with the flock.



they are coy dog X:hair almost as big as a wolf but not scared to come in close! there have been LGD's taken down by these critters,they are not invincible to lead though! just need some free time and some bait


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Now you see when I talked to my insurance man about LGD's he said no problem but I'll need a rider to cover the potential damages caused by one. So it'll never happen here. Besides my usual rant about costs vs benefit and not really wanting to go through what my friends have with neighbors now perminant enemies due to their LGD attacking them and their cattle...... nope not going there. Managment is the answer.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

There is something wrong with the lgd if he is attacking people and their cattle, this is not the norm. Just like any breed of dogs there are poorly bred and trained dogs, and there are well bred properly kept dogs.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Ross said:


> Now you see when I talked to my insurance man about LGD's he said no problem but I'll need a rider to cover the potential damages caused by one. So it'll never happen here. Besides my usual rant about costs vs benefit and not really wanting to go through what my friends have with neighbors now perminant enemies due to their LGD attacking them and their cattle...... nope not going there. Managment is the answer.


Well as we all know not everyone should have an LGD and you sound like you'd be better off with other means to protect your stock with, I just don't know however, how successful they'll be. Donkeys, llamas, they all are snacks for wolves and lions pretty ineffective for big predators.

That's interesting about what your ins guy said to you; I tried to get my dogs insured they wouldn't even touch it and they are an ag insurance co. so I'm very surprised what they said to you about a rider for LGD's. I tried to get my dogs covered for their value if I lose one. Wouldn't touch it. They don't bother anyone's stock as they never get out so I am not worried about that aspect.

Costs vs benefits we've ranted about that before I'll pay for dog food till hell freezes over before I have to explain to my accountant and the banker why I lost $10,000 head of stock...... I don't lose anything, ever; for me anyhow my LGD's pay their way and then some. Not to mention keeping the weirdos and drug running perps off my place - we have them here too, the mexican drug cartels have moved in around here...it sucks. So I figure my dogs are dual purpose...they also serve as ranch and personal protection and no one steals my goats either. WOW we sure got off the topic of junkyard collars!!!??? :hijacked::hijacked:


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

```
just need some free time and some bait
```
Well now, that's the thing, isn't it? WHO has 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, to guard their stock? Most of us have jobs, or other functions that take us away from the flocks that need protection.

I have that protection 24/7. :happy0035:

As for the bait, we all already have that in the form of tasty sheep/goats. Some even have heelers/border collies/australian shepherds.

Not trying to push buttons here, but DANG, how many animals are you willing to LOSE? You put the sheep up every night, so you only lose a few in the daytime....hmmm. They attack your dogs at dusk, hmmmm. How much fun is it to have to be home every day to put livestock in the barn where they'll be safe? 

My dogs have not harmed anything of my neighbors. They did bark at a cow that jumped the fence into my pasture, and kept her in that corner of the fence. We called the neighbor, he loosened the wire, the cow went home, and everything was OK.

Not everyone needs a LGD, I agree. But I do think the OP needs at least TWO, and maybe more!


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I don't disagree with you Wendle, its just not something I'm willing to risk. 

Goatress I wasn't getting the value of the dog covered, I was looking to add additional liability coverage for having a guard dog on the property. Perhaps the insurance co doesn't differentiate between LGDs and a chained up deranged mutt. I _know t_hey should and I'm only guessing thats what they did. Its a bit like saying you own a horse so it should be covered if it gets out and gets hit by a car, and having a horse you rent out for riding to the public, different liability coverage is needed.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Oh and I don't lose anywhere near enough sheep or lambs to make one LGD pay for it self never mind two.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

Hmmm, well, I paid $300 each for my dogs, and am selling the pups for about that, so you must have lost darn few sheep! One registered ewe can pay for a pup! 

I have changed my mind....you should not have a LGD. You would begrudge it every grain of kibble, and be poised to see it fail. No dog deserves that. 

Maybe you should try electic fence?


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I just want to address the wounds on the OP's dog. I am hoping that that he is on antibiotics. Those punctures are worse than a tear. Watch real close for abcess. I'm hoping he went to the vet??


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

The cost of buying the dog is only the down payment and unless you're selling pups they are not money makers. One comercial grade we is worth about $200 here and is fully compensated for predator loss by the govt. Missing lambs are a real cost. 

Now try to factor in even one bad experience with a neighbor by cost. BTW the liability rider per dog was about $200/dog. Seemed high to me. 

I calculated the annual cost of a LGD at about $1000/year IF there's no need for vet care to repair wounds. Food (unless you feed crap ($60/month), grooming (only $20/yr doing it yourself), annual shots and heart worm/flea control,and a basic vet check ($200 here), and liability insurance. 
And the success rate to protect the flock (200 ewes+lambs) would only be about 90% at best using one dog IF the dog worked out first time. If the LGD needed a vet call to stitch wounds and go on antibiotics?? Oh I dunno $200-$2000? So with 200 sheep I'd need what? 4 lgds to get to 100% success? And all 4 are going to work first go right? Not quite what I read here. I'm not losing anything like that even without govt. compensation.
Sorry I don't buy into it. Shoot or snare the coyotes that's legal and where legal poison the wretched things. I donate to our local hunters to shoot them when I can't. Good responcible neighbor and farmers.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Judy in IN said:


> I have changed my mind....you should not have a LGD. You would begrudge it every grain of kibble, and be poised to see it fail. No dog deserves that.


 That's total BS, I have never treated any animal like that!! You obviously don't know me in the slightest, but I've learned something of you!! I looked and saw the pitfalls and would not waste my or the dogs time. Any animal I have here has a purpose and gets the care it requires, don't try to presume things you have no idea about.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

I would say it's been a mutual education, 

Never mind, further conversation is a waste of my lifespan.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

mekasmom said:


> If you had an LGD or better yet two, you wouldn't have to worry about a coyote hurting them. In fact, if you have more than one LGD, you don't even have to worry about mountain lions or wolves hurting them. One, maybe a pack of wolves could injure, but I have never heard of more than one being attacked and hurt.


i got to call BS on this one. first because i know two different cat hunters (in 2 different states) that do subcontract work for wildlife services and have been called out on cats that not only killed the stock but that stalked, killed & ATE the LGDs. in both cases the lions killed both dogs at different times. in all fairness, in both cases the ranchers were only running two dogs on thousands of acres of BLM range. i will also point out that both states had banned hunting lions w/ dogs several years before, which resulted in several generations of lions raised w/o learning to fear dogs.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I am running apx 100 ewes right now with only one lgd. I think part of why this works is that I am out there every day around the livestock checking , and the other thing is how things are set up. The sheep are together . If I take out any like lambs to wean, or rams, they are up near the house . So far this has worked well. When I tried to do more than two separate pens where the lgd couldn't get to fast enough I lost a few sheep. 
When I insured this place they wanted to look at the lgd to make sure he was friendly and that was good enough, no extra fees involved. Why should there be? Isn't he just like having any other dog around except he is with the sheep? The insurance guy did have problems with me letting other breeds like pit bulls, german shepherds, and chows on the property for dog grooming even though they didn't live here.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

> When I insured this place they wanted to look at the lgd to make sure he was friendly and that was good enough, no extra fees involved. Why should there be? Isn't he just like having any other dog around except he is with the sheep? The insurance guy did have problems with me letting other breeds like pit bulls, german shepherds, and chows on the property for dog grooming even though they didn't live here.


 Beats me why unless he simply equated it with a junk yard dog? We had commercial insurance for the dog grooming biz here maybe your agent wanted to insure you as a business?


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Pops2 said:


> in all fairness, in both cases the ranchers were only running two dogs on thousands of acres of BLM range. i will also point out that both states had banned hunting lions w/ dogs several years before, which resulted in several generations of lions raised w/o learning to fear dogs.


Well there's your answer. Two dogs on that much of a spread wasn't enough and if the cats had not learned to fear dogs as you say, well....obviously look what happened. 

I can assure you however if they'd had my 15 dogs there on duty, it'd be the cats that were dead not the dogs.... :gaptooth: 

To further prove my point.... Just heard from the lady in California yesterday who owns the full sister to my Kangal female. Seems she, one male LGD (a mixed breed LGD) and four of her 5 mo. old pups, *kept two lions treed for three days......*the agency guys showed up and shot them both, they'd been marauding livestock. 

I still say, if you run the right number of dogs, and the types of breeds best suited to your predator issues and your land and layout, that you won't lose stuff. It obviously becomes a question too however, can you afford it, I do understand that. Again my dog food bill is huge but I breed LGDs so its different.

The other lady who said she runs minimal dog coverage with 100 head is correct in saying she can get away with that because she also keeps a presence there. She is to be commended for exhibiting responsible animal husbandry and caring enough to check on things and in effect, back up her dog. The predators smell her plus the dog, and stay off.

Too many livestockmen don't do that, they walk off and leave it all up to the dogs and luck. And are quick to come up with excuses of why they can't check on their stock more often or hire someone to, etc., but fast to complain when they lose stock. Goes in one ear and out the other with me...it really boils down to how much we care to take the time and effort to ensure at all costs protection for our stock. Whether its donkeys or dogs, are WE doing all we can?


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

IMO...my LGD's will be worth their weight...even if they did cost 1000.00 a year. 2 of my sheep are worth that much. I lost a lamb to a coy-dog...coyote...climbed over the fence...and killed a 400 dollar registered lamb. 
Now my BIL in MN.raises over 400 head of sheep...they are meat sheep and losing a few does not cut into his pocket...I guess...so the cost of losing 1...2...3...4...sheep or more ends up being..100...200..300...400 dollars?

If I lost....1...2...3...4...that's...2400 bucks..so I feel it's worthwhile to afford an LGD...I've done my research and the stories...from the people that own them from all around the world far outway the second hand passed down/opinions..from people that dont own them. Now can something bad happen to my dogs/sheep? Of course....anything is still possible I cannot predict mother nature...but I will do everything in my power to protect my investment both sheep and LGD dogs...JM2 cents + 2400 bucks.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

My LGD pays me back with peace of mind. I love that he's out there watching over our little farm, and we haven't had any losses since he's been here, except for the ducks that were penned outside his patrol area (my bad).


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Goattress 
i absolutely agree, if they had been running enough dogs the cats wouldn't have had a chance to kill them. but if it had been five LGDs facing a pack of 8 or more canadian grey wolves the end result would have been the same. my point to mekasmom was that multiples in & of itself doesn't change the fact they are just dogs and can still be killed.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Pops you are right. My biggest fear is some weirdo dropping poisoned hamburger out. The way the world is going these days you never know.... :~(


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Goatress said:


> Pops you are right. My biggest fear is some weirdo dropping poisoned hamburger out. The way the world is going these days you never know.... :~(


This is my biggest fear for any of my dogs, LGD or not.

Walked out the door the other day and immediately there was a bag on the inside of our driveway gate. My heart jumped in my throat having heard stories of bags of poisoned dogfood. Luckily it was a friend of the family dropping off some clothes they picked up at a yardsale for us.(It would have been MUCH MUCH safe outside of the yearling GP's domain though, luckily he hadn't found it yet)

When my we get our next dogs, we are going to attempt to train them to eat out of a specific dish or with a specific command. That sounds extreme, but I grew up knowing a fella who had a GSD he would take on the weekend trailrides. Another member of our group threw the dog a raw steak. The steak hit the dog in the face, fell on the ground, and the dog sit and stared at it. The dog's owner realized what was going on and grinned at the person trying to feed the dog(because one used strict training and the other thought it was a game to try to spoil the dog's training) and gave the dog a release command. I was impressed and found out it was to prevent poisonings.

Might not be as easily applied to LGDs who are free fed.


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