# What is it Like?



## Oxankle

Like most boys I had a sweetheart at home. Pretty, voluptuous, smart, oh, so smart! I was head over heels in love in high school. Then we graduated. Her father had land and money; my family had eight children and a working father. No way was that man going to let such a boy have his daughter.

So, in a few months she married a much older man. I spent the next several years in the army, then learning to make a living. I eventually married and we started our family. The next time I saw her she was 45 years old, barren. Today she is a white-headed old woman, a wealthy, childless widow. 

What would it have been like to have stayed in that town and watched that, to see her often and know what might have been? 

Has anyone been down that road?


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## Fair Light

There was a boy I dated a short time as a teenager... He died of a heart attack at age 38... Then there was a guy I had a mad crush on all through high school..football player.., big party guy.... Fortunately he never liked me.... He ended up never keeping a job, dealing drugs etc.., he died sometime in our 40's..I just thank God for unanswered prayer..I dodged a bullet with that one....


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## foxfiredidit

> What would it have been like to have stayed in that town and watched that, to see her often and know what might have been?


Henry David Thoreau once said, &#8220;things do not change; we change.&#8221; Well, I don't think that is exactly correct. I think we all travel together through time, each one remaining essentially the same to some mysterious, exacting extent. 
Especially in the realm of heart felt emotion, I think the corrosive effect of time's passing is a lot more gentle than we would sometimes like to admit or think about, no matter the circumstance. 
So I think had you stayed, it would have been easier for you in knowing that which she would only eventually come to understand. I would say she thought of you often through the years.


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## dustyroad

Goes against my grain a bit but I am actually trying to join in.
I had a GF in HS and it seems we were supposed to get married but that was news to me. After HS she had me take her to a wedding and sat there with the wink wink, nudge nudge. I hit the door of the church running like the wind.
34 years later we got back together and had a very good time for a few years. Back in younger days we always talked about getting away from the city and then when we got back together we agreed that was what we needed.
She'd never had a house of her own so I built her one. Turned out pretty good too, but it's just a house. Then I got the chance to come out here and asked her to come look at a few places with me.
"Are you crazy? I'm not leaving this house." Guess I found out what's really important. That was 4 years ago and I'm only now trying to crawl out of my shell.
People are who they are, not what we think they are.


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## roadless

" People are who they are, not what we think they are " 

So very true dustyroad.

This has been one profound, painful lesson for me also.
I just don't want that fact to change who I am.


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## Laura Zone 5

Oxankle said:


> Like most boys I had a sweetheart at home. Pretty, voluptuous, smart, oh, so smart! I was head over heels in love in high school. Then we graduated. Her father had land and money; my family had eight children and a working father. No way was that man going to let such a boy have his daughter.
> 
> So, in a few months she married a much older man. I spent the next several years in the army, then learning to make a living. I eventually married and we started our family. The next time I saw her she was 45 years old, barren. Today she is a white-headed old woman, a wealthy, childless widow.
> 
> What would it have been like to have stayed in that town and watched that, to see her often and know what might have been?
> 
> Has anyone been down that road?


My "first love" was murdered when I was 18, so.....
The one boy that loved me.......I mean L-O-V-E-D me, I did not love back.
I was buck wild, and he was mature.

Looking back now, would have I have changed a thing?
ONLY if I could have kept my 3 kids.
THEY are the most precious thing on the planet to me 
(ironically, he had 3 kids too)

I am glad both my 'first love' and the one who loved me, was not around.
(not glad 1rst is dead)
When things got rough, the temptation would have been to run to what was familiar....the whole "grass is greener" nonsense.

Not having them near, forced me to 'live it out'.
Play the cards dealt to me.
I have learned you can never, go back.


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## sustainabilly

"People are who they are, not what we think they are."

So true!

My first real girlfriend and I thought we invented love. We were young and it was a very passionate relationship. Yet, it was the early 70's and back then most girls my age still saved themselves... but, Oh Lord! how we wanted to. I saw her once after high school and she told me she'd been thinking of me. Nothing ever came of that meeting, though. Later, I heard she had moved to Canada and married the brother of her brother's wife. I looked for her about a year ago on facebook, back before I stopped using it, but never heard what had become of her. I think memories are best left to simply be savored and cherished. You can never go back.


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## roadless

I grew up in small town in Pa. 
In my teens I was friends with a great guy. We were always very close but not romantically (....other than one wine induced night, that we were both embarrassed about). 

He was my " I wonder what could have been....."

About 10 years ago I went to the hometown for a visit.
He was stumbling up the street, toothless, shaking and hollow eyed....looking 20 years older than he was.

He recognized me right away and we hugged and chatted some. I could barely understand him. My heart broke for him.
He died shortly thereafter.


I guess in thinking on the past ..it can never be any other way than what it was.....and now it just is what it is...


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## Oxankle

Foxfire;
I 'spect you are correct. At the far end of the road there is little point in looking back. What she thinks of it I'll never know. 

So many of us have such memories, some happy, some not so happy. We were wise (or perhaps just fortunate?) to let those flames die and move on. Especially so when a young woman falls in love with the "bad boy" as so many seem to do. 
oX


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## roadless

In my case I was a 'bad girl 'too, I just changed my ways.


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## fordson major

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLrnwnNycoQ[/ame]


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## willow_girl

Bad boy meets bad girl ... a match made in ... Heaven? Hmmm .... 

Recently it occurred to me that the man I'm with now reminds me a lot of my first love, whom I haven't seen in more than 30 years. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not ... :whistlin:


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## roadless

Not bad for a country song..:lookout:


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## Bellyman

Sometimes I look around. And sometimes I see someone who's "pretty" to look at. The times I've stayed around long enough to get to know a little more about the pretty ones, I come to the same conclusion... I'll stick with the one I've got, thank you very much. 

The grass does often look greener on the other side of the fence. Maybe it is. Maybe it's getting better care, too. Or maybe it's just the way the light shines on it from where you're standing and it's not so green at all.


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## Oxankle

Bellyman; 
A wise decison; At some point in a man's life he comes to realize that women, so far as men are concerned, are pretty much alike. They are what you make of them. Treat them well, be faithful, loving, considerate, a good provider (though that is the least important of the lot) and kind---you cannot chase them away with a stick. Be hard and mean, drunken, unfaithful, a lousy provider---you might as well have a witch in your kitchen though she's the same woman. How many times have you seen a good woman turn sour because she's married a louse?


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## dustyroad

You are dreaming my friend. In too many people having enough just generates a need for more and once that ball starts rolling it's going to consume everything that can be clutched and held and it becomes an addiction. The one who's doing the providing will be ridden into the ground, to get more of what they don't need, to impress people they don't like.


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## frogmammy

Why yearn for yesterday? Today is here, and you can do something SOLID with that. If you want to yearn for something, yearn for tomorrow. Tomorrow is a promise, MAKE it what you want.

Mon


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## rod44

I was a junior in high school and she a sophomore. First big time true love for both of use. We split up when I graduated but I never got over her. Didn't see her through college. Saw each other over christmas of our senior year of college and we got married 6 months later. It has been a great 46 years of marriage!!!


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## Oxankle

Dusty: There are bad women just as there are bad men, but in nature the male is dominant. There is a time, very rare but there is a time, when a man must make his voice heard and his will imposed. No man can hold a woman with chains, but they can be held. 

I have come to believe that it is sometimes better, if they wish, to let them go. A friend told me once that his wife, a demon, came to him after years of a bad marriage and told him she was leaving--and leaving him their children. He told me that all he could think of was "Thank God".

Frogmammy; I don't think any of us are yearning. It is more like wondering. Sort of like "What if I had accepted the plumber's offer of taking his business when he retired?" The man came to my house when I was about two months from graduation. Told me he was five years from quitting. "Come work with me, and when I quit you can have the business, trucks, equipment and all." A good man. What would become of me?

Rod44: Now that is the kind of story I like to hear. Congratulations to you both.
Ox


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## willow_girl

> At some point in a man's life he comes to realize that women, so far as men are concerned, are pretty much alike.


And in the dark, all cats are gray ... :hysterical:


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## Laura Zone 5

Seems like more times than not, the reason the grass is greener on the other side?
Lot's and lot's of bull fertilizer.
It's all an illusion.....


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## willow_girl

With all due respect, Laura, I kinda disagree. Each of my marriages was happier than the previous one, and the relationship I'm in now tops them all.


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## Laura Zone 5

You then, are the exception to the rule!!


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## Laura

I was with my high school sweetheart for 9 years, until I was 25 and he was 30. It was a good run, I love him and the bros dearly, but I wanted more out of life than lying around Dogpatch. When I left I'm pretty sure they thought I'd be back, but I rode it down as far as I was willing to go.

20 years ago living in Montana I came across a friend from a different region married to a man from Dogpatch. He told me "our" homestead property had been sold off and became a subdivision. 

When I became single in 2010, my best gf from Dogpatch showed up with a message from the Brothers. Am I ready to come home? I AM home. We had a wonderful visit and she proved once again the superpower abilities of Blackfeet trackers. HS Sweetheart is still lying around Dogpatch and never married. He has my address and phone number.


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## FarmboyBill

I wonder, after reading many such as these answers, IF were not to blame for other peoples crashes and ruination in their lives. The breakups we went through, the get aways we got away from, whose lives spireled downward into death and destruction. I don't think I ever cause any such, NOR was I the recipient of such, BUT, the thoughts there anyway.

ON ANOTHER NOTE. The country song, What Might Have Been would be good for this post.


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## Oxankle

Willow Girl; my Bohemian mama said "In the dark all cows are black". 
Ox


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## Allen W

I got an earful one day from a girl who I liked in my high school days mother about how she treated her husband at times. All I could think was thank God I missed that one. I wouldn't trade what I have today for any one from the past.


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## fordson major

Oxankle said:


> Willow Girl; my Bohemian mama said "In the dark all cows are black".
> Ox


then she has never chased a herd of angus in the dark!! most other cows I can see, but always had trouble seeing all black cows in the dark. (cept when there was snow on the ground, then Charolaise were hard!)


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## willow_girl

Another reason to have Holsteins -- easy to spot, regardless of weather! ound:


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## txplowgirl

Oh boy I remember my first love. 

My mother introduced us when we were both 15. We were great friends, we went everywhere together and it was strictly platonic even though I wanted just a tad more. We had been together a little over a year when I finally made the moves on him and he ran like a scared jack rabbit. He wasn't ready for anything more but friendship. 

A year and a half later I married my first husband. Big mistake, but it lasted 21 years. A year after we married I became pregnant and about that time my mom told me that he had joined the army and had written to her asking for my address. I wrote him and we exchanged post cards a couple of times but I stopped writing to him because my husband didn't like it and I was married and I didn't think it was appropriate either. But I thought about him off and on.

Then when my son was about 2 years old I had taken my son to visit his grandparents while husband stayed home and worked. 
I'd been there for a couple of days when to my surprise this friend of mine pulls into the drive. He was home from the army and had seen my mother and learned I was in town. My mother didn't care for my husband but she liked this young man. 

Anyway, he came to visit and invite me to tea at the local restauraunt. His mother was a waitress there and working that shift. He didn't want anything to look unapropriate as he told me. So I went and visited with him over a tea. Boy his mother was not a happy camper. She was shooting daggers at both of us, lol. But he was a perfect gentleman but he shocked the heck out of me by telling me that he loved me and he wanted my child and he would raise him if I was willing to be with him. 

I turned him down and went home. You know the old saying hindsight is 20/20. I wished I had taken him up on his offer because it might have saved me a lot of heartache. 

Anyway, I though about him off and on through the years and lost track of him. 

Got divorced, spent some time by myself and got involved with my then boyfriend who turned into my husband and before I married I tried to find him, I tried facebook, old friends and aquaintances because I wanted to see if there was any sparks before I committed to my husband. Couldn't find him.

Then a month after I married my mom found out his mother died from an old aquaintance and she got a message to him that I was looking for him. I had told her not to do that after I married but she couldn't help herself.

He contacted me through facebook and I gave him my phone number. He called me. He was happy, had been married for nearly 26 years and had 4 kids. He told me that he had loved me at the time when we were first together but he wasn't ready at that time to take it any farther but he said he loved me. He spent 4 years in the military and when he came home he was still in love with me and that was when he told me he would take both me and my son. But when I turned him down he decided to find someone else and he married a year later. 

He had gotten into drugs and alcohol bad but his wife finally was able to pull him out of it. That was it.

We're still friends and fiends on facebook and we talk maybe once every 6 months or so for a couple of minutes but he's committed to his wife and I'm committed to my husband. 

I used to think about him a lot wondering if he was "The One" but I haven't thought about him like that since I talked to him. We're both happily married and happy with our lives.


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## Oxankle

One should never stir an old fire while a new one burns. Big mistake.
Ox


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## Ardie/WI

Oh my, the memories your stories have brought back. Yes, we loved each other with a passion that was too much, too passionate, too everything. It's been almost 40 years since he drove his Harley out of my sight and I still can hear his laughter in my memory.

But, I also feel that "what should have been but ever was, was never meant to be."


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## Jaclynne

Someone I hold in very high regard once told me, "Some things are better left a memory."

I didn't listen, of course, but discovered they were right.


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## NoClue

A couple years ago I became re-acquainted with my first great love after not seeing her for 30 years or so. It was an odd experience, not so much emotional in and of itself, but heavy with the memories of old emotions. We talked a few times, but the present is so much more important than the past...

I was very impressed by the woman she became. She is everything I saw in her and more when we first met at 16, and I'm proud to have known her.


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## fordson major

willow_girl said:


> Another reason to have Holsteins -- easy to spot, regardless of weather! ound:


 ya but ya gotta like...... oh never mind!! 













(milk shakes people!! get you mind outa the gutter!!)


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## Matthew_70

I had a girl I was in love with and she was a sweetheart. Smart, witty, cute, and vulnerable. She brought out the protective instincts in me, and I loved that. She and I had a falling out, and broke up after only a few weeks of dating. A month of so ago I ran across her facebook page and was like, "Who's the old lady?" No teeth, scrawny, arrogant posture, and it downed on me that it was her. I had to go get the scrapbook and look and compared the two and yes, it was her! She was drop dead gorgeous and it all fell apart.

Now, here's the silly thing. I really loved her personality and the way she was always ready to go do fun stuff, and I know, had we stuck together, I would still think she was drop-dead gorgeous, because I look at the inside more than the outside, and always have.


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## FarmboyBill

Id appreciate the, ah, milkshakes from a Jersey, or Brown Swiss (im not pregiduced), or a gurnsey any day lol.


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## Allen W

Nothing like having your wife ask you who this is when some one wanted to freind her on face book and realizeing that "guy" in the picture is a young woman you ran around with in the past.


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## Oxankle

Matthew: Women are pretty much what men make them. When a girl marries a good man, kind, a hard worker, sober, a good provider and a loving husband she turns out differently than the woman who marries a drunken, mean, idler, a self-absorbed, greedy, demanding, unhelpful tyrant. 

In today's world a woman has a much better chance at a happy life if she is educated and capable of supporting herself without a man. If she makes a bad marriage she has the ability to deal with her husband on even terms, or to leave him. If she makes a good marriage she and her husband are just about assured of financial success.


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## SimplerTimez

Oxankle said:


> Matthew: Women are pretty much what men make them. When a girl marries a good man, kind, a hard worker, sober, a good provider and a loving husband<snip>


And by far the most important on that list are kindness and loving. Without those, it is a loveless, things oriented roommate relationship. People can do without a lot of 'things' where there is love and kindness, because the greatest thing that they have is a solid relationship.

~ST


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## Oxankle

SimplerTimez:

I think you are correct. It has long been my opinion that a woman in love will stay in love with a man of good character who does his best, even though it is not so much. If he is faithful and loving he will keep his wife. Just what I have seen--


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## sdnapier

Oxankle said:


> Dusty: There is a time, very rare but there is a time, when a man must make his voice heard and his will imposed. No man can hold a woman with chains, but they can be held.
> 
> 
> Seriously?! Unbelievable!


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## Oxankle

SDN; Yes, it is so. In every species there is a dominant sex. In apes it is the silverback. In humans it is generally the male, though he is wise if he limits his interference to matters that endanger the family or its finances. 

If he has done his job well a raised eyebrow or perhaps a few calm words are usually enough. Sometimes a man has to listen to a lot of hot words to get in his few, but it can be done.


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## Matthew_70

Oxankle said:


> Matthew: Women are pretty much what men make them. When a girl marries a good man, kind, a hard worker, sober, a good provider and a loving husband she turns out differently than the woman who marries a drunken, mean, idler, a self-absorbed, greedy, demanding, unhelpful tyrant.


Men are pretty much what women make them, as well. A man generally will be clueless about what he needs to do in a new household, at least in this society where there are more women doing it themselves than working to create a family, and she will need to sit down with him, work out the kinks and lay out the lines of responsibility to make a household work.

But when he has no clue, and she is impatient, selfish, and short tempered, she can assume responsibilities that are not hers, and short-circuit the marriage in a way that leaves him impotent and unsure. 

Most of the time this ends up resulting in a war for who is in charge. Then you see men who are married to a woman who is mean, an idler, self absorbed, greedy, demanding, and unhelpful - and a man who is also mean, and idler, selfish, uncaring, and unhelpful. MOST of these end up being long term marriages because of the personality of the couple.

However, when there is no clear power base (could be him, could be her) in the family, with one person to face the world and one to provide support, then the natural order of things tries to assert itself and you get a version of marriage that is closer to Survivor Island, than to a marriage.

The Jewish use the Ketuba to accomplish this. It's a contract between the man and woman (or women if not in the USA) that spells out the terms of the marriage, who is in charge of what, and where leadership falls.

I love that some folks see love as this mystical connection that can never be made, but I've seen too much of the world and met/spoken to too many arranged marriages to believe it now. Not everyone can love everyone else, but generally when you start working with someone to build a family, the love comes later and stronger than you could imagine.


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## L.A.

I learned a long time ago,,not to speak of old flames,, to new flames,,

You guys who haven't figured this out yet,,,,,Will,,,,,:stars:


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## SimplerTimez

Matthew_70 said:


> *The Jewish use the Ketuba to accomplish this. It's a contract between the man and woman (or women if not in the USA) that spells out the terms of the marriage, who is in charge of what, and where leadership falls.*
> 
> I love that some folks see love as this mystical connection that can never be made, but I've seen too much of the world and met/spoken to too many arranged marriages to believe it now. Not everyone can love everyone else, but generally when you start working with someone to build a family, the love comes later and stronger than you could imagine.


And now you understand my position on marriage. It is my belief that one learns to love, not falls in love. There must be common goals, desires, and a basis of respect. A Ketuba is a covenant, or a b'rith. My late husband and I wrote our own and had it witnessed. When he died, I burned it. I committed to never divorcing, in writing, before the Almighty. We may not have always lived together, but I always conducted myself as a wife, regardless of our physical proximity - that was part of my covenant vow. Torah calls the bonding of a couple 'complementary strengths' in the original Hebrew. 

Expectations, particularly unexpressed ones, cause more relationships to fail than a failure to love. This is based in communication, in my opinion. With a Ketuba, these things are worked out in advance. Yes, things may change over time, but the terms will be honored by the two bound by a covenant, or should. 

People often find my approach too pragmatic to be called 'love'. But I believe it is more realistic. I also believe that once you have committed in seriousness, and both people uphold the covenant, the bond that emerges is stronger and can handle more things that life normally tosses at us, than one based on the ephemeral, fleeting, and vacillating thing we often call love, which is more like infatuation and lust in a nice and tidy, exciting package 

Real love is work, sometimes pleasant, sometimes not.

~ST


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## sustainabilly

I've not thought through all the details as Mathew or ST have in their posts. But when I read the two, and combined what I thought they were saying, it occurred to me that those beliefs are the same ones that I reached when I decided that I would never be in a serious relationship again without having built a true friendship first. Not acquaintance, or infatuation, or FWB. The, "I'd suffer before letting you suffer," kind. I thought I had that. Found out I didn't. I figure after all these years, I owe it to myself to have it at last, and don't want to offer that special woman, if she's really out there, anything less.


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## willow_girl

My mother was unhappily married to my father, but from time to time she would rhapsodize about a boy with the memorable name of Chuck Winkleplex, whom she had dated prior to hitching her wagon to my dad's star. 

Apparently she had been madly in love with Chuck, but her family was dirt-poor and none too respectable, while his was of slightly higher social standing and discouraged the union.

I got the distinct impression from her musings that she believed her life would have turned out much happier had she only managed to snare Chuck! 

Fast forward 30-some years, and while my mother was visiting her hometown, my grandmother asked her if she'd like to visit that boy she'd dated decades earlier. She jumped at the chance, of course ... only to find that Chuck had become a farmer and lived in a doublewide trailer! 

(Despite coming from humble beginnings, my mother became something of a snob in later life.)

While they apparently enjoyed a pleasant visit, I never heard her mention his name again. ound:


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## swamp man

In response to the original question.......Yes. Two women in particular give me the "What if's". Both are ladies I met via the internet, one right here on ST, in fact. We were on opposite ends of the country, often had phone conversations until the sun came up, and basically established a relationship before we met face-to-face. We were both well pleased with what we saw when she DID finally fly to MS, but in retrospect, getting on "I love you" terms before the initial meeting was a heck of a gamble. We were both at odd points in life at the time, and in a lot of ways. She will always own part of my heart, we stay in touch, and often have the "what if?" conversation. We talk ourselves into a fantasy, then snap back to reality.
My other "what if' gal is one I met on POF, while we were both at the height of our alcoholism. I made the 1 1/2 hour drive to meet her, she cooked supper, we got into the wine, and consummated the relationship on the first date, which is what generally happens. For some reason, though, something tells me that had I and this particular lady taken things slower, it would have helped our chances. Her work schedule made things tough, as she works offshore and was out to sea for weeks at a time. Too much knowledge of my promiscuity during my single times in combination with being apart while she worked and the fact that previous boyfriends had cheated on her created indescribeable trust issues on her part, and frustration on my part, as I could never reassure her enough, and I have never cheated on anyone. All that booze we were putting down was undoubtedly a major factor, as well. Sober, and in a different situation, we might have married. She resurfaces from time to time, we'll spend a week together, fall in love again, and then one of us will get PO'd and leave. It's a cycle we've been through so many times that it's become predictable. I have to admit, though, Beth has pulled me to my feet when I was near death on more than one occasion.
Oh, well.


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## Shrek

Oxankle said:


> Like most boys I had a sweetheart at home. Pretty, voluptuous, smart, oh, so smart! I was head over heels in love in high school. Then we graduated. Her father had land and money; my family had eight children and a working father. No way was that man going to let such a boy have his daughter.
> 
> So, in a few months she married a much older man. I spent the next several years in the army, then learning to make a living. I eventually married and we started our family. The next time I saw her she was 45 years old, barren. Today she is a white-headed old woman, a wealthy, childless widow.
> 
> What would it have been like to have stayed in that town and watched that, to see her often and know what might have been?
> 
> Has anyone been down that road?


Not with that situation or outcome but my high school steady's parents didn't approve of me nor my father of her and her parents moved her away to her aunt on the other side of the state during their summer vacation and my father blocked her calls to me as I finished college, got a job and started dating again.

Over the next 30 years she put me in her memories , married, raised a family and I did the same.

Then her husband died and her parents died soon after and she moved back to our home town that I had moved back to a decade before and got divorced in.

With the help of mutual friends we reconnected and enjoy just being steadies again as we both got the marriage and family rearing out of our systems. 

She still looks as good to me as she did back then and she says the same of me but we both know we got a lifetime of miles behind us.

Some say we don't have a good relationship but it suits us.

Speaking of it suiting us , I better make my morning pot of coffee to get warmed up before meeting her at the cafÃ© for breakfast before she heads into work and I come home for some extra :zzz: and greenhouse chores before an evening at her house before she has to turn in and I have to come home to bed down my critters and work on my current work project to supplement my company pension check.

Like I said, some of our friends say what we have isn't perfect but they aren't us and what we have works for us to enjoy each other without the dog fights that most marriages (at least ours) had.


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## RideBarefoot

Oxankle said:


> If he has done his job well a raised eyebrow or perhaps a few calm words are usually enough. Sometimes a man has to listen to a lot of hot words to get in his few, but it can be done.


This is how I get my point across, and I am a woman...

Does this make me dominant?


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## Matthew_70

SimplerTimez said:


> And now you understand my position on marriage. It is my belief that one learns to love, not falls in love. There must be common goals, desires, and a basis of respect. A Ketuba is a covenant, or a b'rith. My late husband and I wrote our own and had it witnessed. When he died, I burned it. I committed to never divorcing, in writing, before the Almighty. We may not have always lived together, but I always conducted myself as a wife, regardless of our physical proximity - that was part of my covenant vow. Torah calls the bonding of a couple 'complementary strengths' in the original Hebrew.
> 
> Expectations, particularly unexpressed ones, cause more relationships to fail than a failure to love. This is based in communication, in my opinion. With a Ketuba, these things are worked out in advance. Yes, things may change over time, but the terms will be honored by the two bound by a covenant, or should.
> 
> People often find my approach too pragmatic to be called 'love'. But I believe it is more realistic. I also believe that once you have committed in seriousness, and both people uphold the covenant, the bond that emerges is stronger and can handle more things that life normally tosses at us, than one based on the ephemeral, fleeting, and vacillating thing we often call love, which is more like infatuation and lust in a nice and tidy, exciting package
> 
> Real love is work, sometimes pleasant, sometimes not.
> 
> ~ST


Thank you from the bottom of my heart. This was the most wonderful post I have ever read on a forum. He was blessed to have you as a wife.


----------



## Matthew_70

> If he has done his job well a raised eyebrow or perhaps a few calm words are usually enough. Sometimes a man has to listen to a lot of hot words to get in his few, but it can be done.


This is what I find a lot... that marriage is little more than a power struggle in which you use tricks and psychology to manipulate the other party into seeing things your way. What it boils down to is that the two of you are at war. You may not see it like that, but you are. A war for who is in charge. A war to be right, heard, or followed.

Marriage is not supposed to be that way! Some of you are believers, some Jewish, but everyone can agree that there can never be two leaders in one company. In the navy, there is only one captain on a boat. In a corporation there is only one CEO. I can give hundreds of examples, but "Dual Leadership," NEVER works. One person makes the decisions, but everyone else (the most important part of a marriage,) provides the intel to make those decisions.

I recently read that a leader has nothing... a leader gives everything to his/her people. A husband must be willing to lay down his life to protect and lead his family, and a family must be willing to do whatever possible to support their leader, whoever they choose to do the job. The wife trains the man into the husband she needs... the man helps the woman understand the intel he needs to be that husband. You cannot do that while at war.

I cannot offer advice on how to do that, but if you are talking discipline and control, then you are far from the ideal. She is there because she wants to be, and no other reason. She may be tied to you and that does make it difficult to break away, but she is there because she wants to be. When she gives up the fight, you'll know it, because she will no longer want to be there. The fire is gone. No one can long endure a constant battle for control and the frustration that goes along with it. The war killed the marriage. The war WILL kill your marriage.

Men must understand the will of their wives. He may make the ultimate decision, but that decision is based on the input of the wife. If she is not giving you input, it generally means she either trusts you to make the decision without her, or, she has already made the decision and is just waiting to see what YOU do. If you go her way, great, if you decide contrary to her decision, then the battle is on. This is a war, not a marriage. Trust me, she doesn't want it any more than you do. 

Is any of this making sense?


----------



## Twp.Tom

What about a Co-op?


----------



## Twp.Tom

Can we have relationships, that are cooperatives?


----------



## Twp.Tom

If You are not willing to Compromise, Trust, Share, Love unconditionally, then it is not time for Marriage. Marriage=Come together-side by side* And it always takes TWO*


----------



## SimplerTimez

Matthew_70 said:


> Thank you from the bottom of my heart. This was the most wonderful post I have ever read on a forum. He was blessed to have you as a wife.


Thank you for your kind words; as a widow, they mean a lot to me. 

But before I fall from that pedestal with my customary lack of grace, let me climb down on my own  I didn't come to this understanding without a lot of mistakes and pain - some of them my own. I am still learning, and often make two steps forward and one step back. I will always be learning and growing, even from my mistakes.

You position some good questions in your follow-on post. At the risk of raising the ire of a few, I'll say this much about power in a relationship:

Women today are strong, but so were women of the past. Women today simply have far more opportunity and as such, far more is expected of us. We are relied upon to not only bring home the bacon in many cases, but please also cook it up, and mind you, do it while looking like a pin-up too honey-bunch. We try to be everything at all times in many cases. And the expectations upon men too, have changed. It is long past where a man could just go to work and come home, providing a a good living - women want more as well from their men. It is a hard thing to balance - which is why the Ketuba has even more import to me, in this day and age. What do each of you need/want/desire in a relationship? First, you must know what it is that you each want. Again, communication; talking about difficult things. Far easier to walk away than to become more vulnerable about what things you desire at your core - it requires setting aside pride and reaching out. Next, please, is safer.

When a woman submits to a man, she subsumes her own power _by choice,_ and it is a good man that understands that it is a choice governed by trust and respect, and a true feeling of safety. When a man trusts a woman, he is making himself vulnerable as well.

Each relationship will have varying talents - one strong where the other is weak but together they make a wonderful strong front with the world. Working that out, who is good at what, is dicey. But as a traditionalist, I do find that there must be a leader, and that should be the man. Just like respect, trust is also earned - going both ways, the man in his woman and the woman in her man. It IS cooperation and balance. It will never be 50/50, it will always be a fluctuating thing. 

Again, the consistent key is communication, with honesty - as with all relationships.

And while I am pragmatic about relationships, there absolutely must be a 'woo-hoo' factor  I just don't think it should be the driving factor. Otherwise, one would just join up with a room mate.

~ST


----------



## Jaclynne

Well said ST, well said.


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## Oxankle

Where are you people getting "war" and "power struggle out of anything I said? Baloney.

Laura had it right.


----------



## Matthew_70

Twp.Tom said:


> Can we have relationships, that are cooperatives?


I took a look at the largest co-op that there is. The ICA, has members in many countries, and does good things across the planet. They have a Director-General who is the ultimate decision maker. 


Even in a local co-op someone is calling the shots. He may be called the years president, or a director, or in a couple of cases, a paid employee with good organizational skills. But someone must be in charge. (In Charge - To be charged with the task of organizing and administering day to day operations, often under the directions of a board or other governing body)


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## Matthew_70

Twp.Tom said:


> If You are not willing to Compromise, Trust, Share, Love unconditionally, then it is not time for Marriage. Marriage=Come together-side by side* And it always takes TWO*


Tom, when you marry, it means to join together. The word the Bible uses literally means to blend two into one. 

If two have to be one, imagine a horse costume. If you both are in the head, then you are always fighting to see which way to go. If one is in the rear, and one in the head, then the head goes where the rear points it, lol, just like marriage!


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## sustainabilly

RideBarefoot said:


> This is how I get my point across, and I am a woman...
> 
> *Does this make me dominant?*


If this is you, then yup, you're probably dominant. 

View attachment 22083


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## willow_girl

> Marriage is not supposed to be that way! Some of you are believers, some Jewish, but everyone can agree that there can never be two leaders in one company. In the navy, there is only one captain on a boat. In a corporation there is only one CEO. I can give hundreds of examples, but "Dual Leadership," NEVER works. One person makes the decisions,


I think it works better if each person makes the decisions in his or her area of expertise. I'd be a fool to tell my mate how he ought to do a brake job, and he'd be an idiot to decide how I ought to inseminate a cow. 

Generally we go with who knows more about a particular subject, or who has come up with the best way to tackle a problem. It's wise to cede the point if your mate clearly has the better idea. Gender has nothing to do with it!

Of course, if your ego is such that you ALWAYS have to be right or get your way, I suppose that wouldn't work. I have never cared to be paired up with that sort of partner, though.


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## RideBarefoot

sustainabilly said:


> If this is you, then yup, you're probably dominant.
> 
> View attachment 22083


I am pretty handy with a club! Hmmm, not a blonde, though...


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## sustainabilly

ridebarefoot said:


> i am pretty handy with a club! Hmmm, not a blonde, though...


Okay then...

View attachment 22123


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## Matthew_70

> I think it works better if each person makes the decisions in his or her area of expertise. I'd be a fool to tell my mate how he ought to do a brake job, and he'd be an idiot to decide how I ought to inseminate a cow.
> 
> Generally we go with who knows more about a particular subject, or who has come up with the best way to tackle a problem. It's wise to cede the point if your mate clearly has the better idea. Gender has nothing to do with it!
> 
> Of course, if your ego is such that you ALWAYS have to be right or get your way, I suppose that wouldn't work. I have never cared to be paired up with that sort of partner, though.


I would also hate to be pared up with someone like that. I actually was for a short period of time, and it was miserable. She would say, "You lead the family," then as soon as I made a judgment call that she disagreed with, then she was all over me, arguing, fighting, and trying to get me to, well, I don't know what she wanted. I don't think she did either.

It's exhausting trying to make plans, deal with contingencies, and point the family in one direction to accomplish goals, when the entire time you are trying to justify every action, fight over every detail, and turn away from what you need to do to put out this or that fire because SHE didn't like your decision. Yeah, just like him telling you where to put the turkey baster, or you interrupting him with the brakes to tell him where to put a spring. 

When you are playing cowdaddy with the rubber hose, you are in charge. It's your job, your call, your decisions. He would only get involved if you were doing something wrong... well, not just wrong, but really wrong. If he is helping you, then you direct him, and he does what you need him to do, to accomplish the babymaking. See, he submits to your leadership, and you lead.

The same as with the brakes. When he is doing his job, he is in charge. You would only be right in calling him on something if he was doing something really wrong, dangerous wrong. If he asked you to help, then you would do what he needed, and help him accomplish the brake job. You would submit to his leadership in that task.

Each of those two examples can be drastically different if you fight with him over how to do the brakes, or he fights with you over the cow. Imagine you are at the most difficult part of the insemination, using prized bull swimmers who cost you a bleeding fortune, and when you needed him the most, he decided to start a fight over the size tube you were using or something. How would you feel? If you lost the semen, and it cost a fortune, it would be a disaster to you and it would be his fault because he let you down when you needed him most.

Leaders know that they are not the most important part of the relationship. They know that to accomplish the goals that need to, whatever they are, they must give all of themselves to the task. A real leader celebrates the accomplishments of his wife, supports her in what she wants to do, within the overall goals of the family.

A real follower trusts that he has her back, that she is going to be heard even if his decision is not what she wanted, and a real follower does what is needed at the time, even if she disagrees or it's hard to do because a leader is only as good as those who support him.


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## Twp.Tom

Some of these concepts (one boss, one leader), may work well in the business world,or with children, But Marriage is one of the Highest forms of Love Man!, If you put one person, "in charge"-and I will show you an eventual "power struggle". I think that some people,just should not be married-as they lack the skills-To create a "Union". As I said earlier, it takes two-and you must learn to compromise.


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## Twp.Tom

Marriage usually begins with a friendship-do you take charge of your relationships with your friends?, tell them what is best for them? Just because you are more experienced? Still, there aint nuthin like a friend, who tells you ,"your just peeing in the wind". It's called "sharing"*


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## willow_girl

> I would also hate to be pared up with someone like that. I actually was for a short period of time, and it was miserable. She would say, "You lead the family," then as soon as I made a judgment call that she disagreed with, then she was all over me, arguing, fighting, and trying to get me to, well, I don't know what she wanted. I don't think she did either.
> 
> It's exhausting trying to make plans, deal with contingencies, and point the family in one direction to accomplish goals, when the entire time you are trying to justify every action, fight over every detail, and turn away from what you need to do to put out this or that fire because SHE didn't like your decision.


Yes, I imagine it's much easier if you can just impose your will and tell the other party to stuff it if they don't like your decision. ound:

If my mate were questioning my judgment that much, I think I'd take a hard look and consider the possibility that I might be in the wrong.

And I think it's psychologically unhealthy for an adult woman to demand that some man be her leader. IMO, she's looking for a daddy -- to replicate the safe world of childhood where she had no responsibility other than to please Daddy. She wants to be relieved of the burden of difficult things like taking responsibility, making decisions and being accountable in the event of failure. 

That isn't good wifely virtue, IMO -- it's laziness and immaturity. 

And a partnership suffers, IMO, when only one adult is acting like an adult. Two thinking, reasoning people working together in good faith to overcome obstacles probably are going to make better decisions and a lot more progress than one person going it alone while carrying a passive, childlike wife.


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## Matthew_70

willow_girl said:


> Yes, I imagine it's much easier if you can just impose your will and tell the other party to stuff it if they don't like your decision. ound:
> 
> If my mate were questioning my judgment that much, I think I'd take a hard look and consider the possibility that I might be in the wrong.
> 
> And I think it's psychologically unhealthy for an adult woman to demand that some man be her leader. IMO, she's looking for a daddy -- to replicate the safe world of childhood where she had no responsibility other than to please Daddy. She wants to be relieved of the burden of difficult things like taking responsibility, making decisions and being accountable in the event of failure.
> 
> That isn't good wifely virtue, IMO -- it's laziness and immaturity.
> 
> And a partnership suffers, IMO, when only one adult is acting like an adult. Two thinking, reasoning people working together in good faith to overcome obstacles probably are going to make better decisions and a lot more progress than one person going it alone while carrying a passive, childlike wife.


What in the world at you TALKING about? I have no idea where you are getting any of this stuff!


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## Twp.Tom

No disrespect intended, But I think Willow, gets it from "real life" experience ?


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## willow_girl

Thanks, Tom. :thumb:

Yeah, if there's any subject I know a lot about, it's marriage! ound:


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## Twp.Tom

I hope that I am learning from my Failures, And from the wisdom that others, who have been down the same path convey. There is no perfect blueprint,or plan, I just do the best I can, and try to be open minded. I have such a long way to go! We all have to use our minds-can't just do what you are told all of the time. I appreciate Everyones input, on this thread* Thank You*


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## Oxankle

LOL, Willow Girl???? Wanna tell us how many times it too you to get it right? 

PS: Wish to heck you could teach me AI; I paid thru the nose and set my cows up twice; three trips by the Tech and he still had to catch one of them on natural heat.


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## RideBarefoot

Matthew_70 said:


> When you are playing cowdaddy with the rubber hose, you are in charge. It's your job, your call, your decisions. He would only get involved if you were doing something wrong... well, not just wrong, but really wrong. If he is helping you, then you direct him, and he does what you need him to do, to accomplish the babymaking. See, he submits to your leadership, and you lead.


I was so NOT thinking cows when I read this...


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## willow_girl

Oxankle said:


> LOL, Willow Girl???? Wanna tell us how many times it too you to get it right?


Ox, I'd be on #5 right now if it if wasn't for some legal technicalities.

I figure it's better to make 10 men happy for 5 years, than to make one miserable for 50! :grin:



> PS: Wish to heck you could teach me AI; I paid thru the nose and set my cows up twice; three trips by the Tech and he still had to catch one of them on natural heat.


We set up cows all the time at work and I'm not altogether sold on the technology, either. Sometimes they're not showing any signs of heat when they're scheduled to be bred. What's up with that?! I've never compared conception rates, but I much prefer breeding on natural heats.


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## SimplerTimez

RideBarefoot said:


> I was so NOT thinking cows when I read this...


That made me laugh out loud RB 

~ST


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## Matthew_70

Twp.Tom said:


> No disrespect intended, But I think Willow, gets it from "real life" experience ?


She and I are clearly talking about two different things. She may get it from real life, but that is NOT what I was talking about. I don't like having what I say manipulated. The whole "passive childlike wife," nonsense came totally out of left field. It wasn't part of the conversation, and as far as I can tell, it was never even implied in my comments.

I was saying, and it's sad that it got messed up so badly, that two strong people with solid talents can work independently, yet still enjoy the solidity of a structure in how to deal with matters of the family. I never even implied that it had to be the man, or the woman.

Then I read her post implying that I'm trying to neuter some poor girl into servitude or some such garbage, and it's insulting.


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## Matthew_70

willow_girl said:


> Ox, I'd be on #5 right now if it if wasn't for some legal technicalities.
> 
> I figure it's better to make 10 men happy for 5 years, than to make one miserable for 50! :grin:


This is the difference in what I was saying, and what you implied. I'm talking about a lifetime commitment with one person. You seem to think it fine to go from guy to guy, and if that is your choice, that is your choice. It's not mine.

As for the whole controlling stuff you keep writing... that isn't what I was saying, and you know it.


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## Oxankle

C'mon guys; keep it light-hearted or drop it entirely. This is not a thread about control nor about lifestyle. 

I simply asked what it would be like to live in the same town as someone you once loved and to watch them grow old with someone else. 

Most of us grow out of our first infatuations and fall in mature love. Some of us remain lifelong friends , or at least remain on good terms, with former sweethearts.

I've never been anywhere near the women I once knew---miles and miles and miles away. What would it have been like to be in the same little town?


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## FarmChix

My high school sweetheart is in my old hometown. He hangs out with my aunt...a LOT. He goes to see my mother....a LOT. He is back living with his mother and getting by. It is quite awkward to see or hear about his escapades. I encourage his new relationships, but he never stays with them. He went from being a very religious man to an alcoholic. He came to my Dad's funeral and was a poll bearer. He found out we were moving back soon and is too interested. He and the Hubs are friendly when we are in those "too many" situations where we are all in the same room. We dated for 4 years, were married for 18 years and absolutely nothing has changed. He is still that high school boy that will always be my first love, but will never be my current love. I have even gotten to the point where I have said, "even if there were no 'Hubs', there would be no 'his name'." He still doesn't get it. I have to move back to help take care of my Momma. I am sure it will get even more uncomfortable. I do not look back. As someone else said, I look forward. I cannot take away from him that he was my first love, but he cannot/did not make me happy. Hubs makes me happy. That is what I focus on.


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## trish4prez

I see my high school sweetheart and high school crush when I go home to visit. The crush calls me from time to time just to talk, and the sweetheart used to come by and visit me at my parents'. I haven't seen him in probably three years now, though. If I did run into him, I'm sure we'd laugh and talk the same as before.


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## willow_girl

> As for the whole controlling stuff you keep writing... that isn't what I was saying, and you know it.


No, actually, I don't know. There really are men like that ... that, I know, because I was married to one for 12 years. 

He insisted on having everything his way. There was no religious basis to his beliefs; he simply felt that as an adult, he was entitled to call the shots. He made it very clear that I could stick around if I pleased, or go my merry way if I didn't like his plans.

He wasn't a bad guy, and he had a daughter I became close to, which is probably the reason I stayed for so long. But eventually the kid was grown and I figured it was time to go live life the way *I* wanted for a change!

The look on his face when I broke the news was priceless. The next day he sat me down and offered a new arrangement: If I'd say, we'd split the decision-making 50/50, and I could have some of the stuff I wanted, too. It didn't have to be all about _him_ anymore.

I heard him out politely and when he was finished, I said, "Sweetheart, I don't think you understand ... if I stay, you say things will be 50/50 from now on, but if I leave, I can have it 100 percent my way!" 

And let me tell you, that 100 percent felt pretty darned good! :hysterical:


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## Oxankle

Willow; Yours is pretty much the arrangement I've espoused. Lots of hugging and squeezing, eternal faithfulness and I do everything I'm told to do. 

Now, if the train goes off the tracks I'm comin' in there to fix it. 
Ox


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## willow_girl

You are a smart man, Ox! :happy2:


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## Westwood

Even in a local co-op you'll find repugnicans calling them socialist because the are not for profit. They can't screw you for a profit. Credit Unions, et all. Not for profit, no stock holders, they serve their members and if they do end up with a profit at the end of the year they pay it back to their members in patronage payments. We can't be having that! It might catch on . . . .


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## Westwood

When a woman submits to a man, she subsumes her own power by choice, and it is a good man that understands that it is a choice governed by trust and respect, and a true feeling of safety. When a man trusts a woman, he is making himself vulnerable as well.

I know men. I know women need to be strong. I know women need to keep a part of them apart because there are men who will take advantage of them. And now many men since 1970 can balance their own checkbook let alone manage a family.


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## Westwood

We don't make men the way they used to be.


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## Westwood

Willow, how you can tolerate these people after all these years . . . I'm in awe.


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## Oxankle

Westwood????? Is that really you? Where the dickens have you been? LOL, how do you know so much about wimmin? 

Lots of water under the bridge since I last saw you on here. Tell us what you are doing now.

Ox


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## Terri

WESTWOOD!!!!!

Welcome back!:nanner:


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## Oxankle

Yeah, what Terri said!!!!
Ox


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## FarmboyBill

L O O O O O N G T I M E, No See. Still doing good??


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## Matthew_70

SimplerTimez said:


> And now you understand my position on marriage. It is my belief that one learns to love, not falls in love. There must be common goals, desires, and a basis of respect. A Ketuba is a covenant, or a b'rith. My late husband and I wrote our own and had it witnessed. When he died, I burned it. I committed to never divorcing, in writing, before the Almighty. We may not have always lived together, but I always conducted myself as a wife, regardless of our physical proximity - that was part of my covenant vow. Torah calls the bonding of a couple 'complementary strengths' in the original Hebrew.
> 
> Expectations, particularly unexpressed ones, cause more relationships to fail than a failure to love. This is based in communication, in my opinion. With a Ketuba, these things are worked out in advance. Yes, things may change over time, but the terms will be honored by the two bound by a covenant, or should.
> 
> People often find my approach too pragmatic to be called 'love'. But I believe it is more realistic. I also believe that once you have committed in seriousness, and both people uphold the covenant, the bond that emerges is stronger and can handle more things that life normally tosses at us, than one based on the ephemeral, fleeting, and vacillating thing we often call love, which is more like infatuation and lust in a nice and tidy, exciting package
> 
> Real love is work, sometimes pleasant, sometimes not.
> 
> ~ST


You are a jewel, a rose. I'll bet you had one of the most satisfying marriages and I envy you.

I meet people all the time who just KNOW that they are right. They meet someone, fall in love. Then with no plan, no organization, they think that those emotions will carry them through an entire lifetime. Then, and I hear it ALL the time, she says, "I just don't feel that way with him anymore."

Not a reason to get involved.

Frankly, I'm a huge fan of arranged marriages. It's smarter, lets adults who are thinking with their brains help make the decisions, and if the two look at it as a trap instead of a diner by the road, then they might made decisions that let children live in a two parent home for more than seven years.

The USA has a 70% divorce rate. The same people that are making up those numbers are the ones telling me that I'm wrong.


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## Matthew_70

FarmboyBill said:


> L O O O O O N G T I M E, No See. Still doing good??


Hello Bill. Yes, doing good. I know you, but can't place you. Bfree?


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## Terri

Matthew_70 said:


> I meet people all the time who just KNOW that they are right. They meet someone, fall in love. Then with no plan, no organization, they think that those emotions will carry them through an entire lifetime. Then, and I hear it ALL the time, she says, "I just don't feel that way with him anymore."


I suspect that the thought and planning part are VERY important! 

For myself, I just KNEW the man I had my eye on was "the one!" But we were very young, I was still dependent on my parents, and we could not afford to get married. So we talked and we planned and we discussed everything under the sun. And we are still happy together.

Choose a man through emotion? sure THING, but then a young couple has some real work to do. Too many teenagers believe in "happily ever after", when in reality life and love entails a lot of hard work! 

I see too many teens who think that love is the end, instead of the beginning.


----------



## 406127

Oxankle said:


> Like most boys I had a sweetheart at home. Pretty, voluptuous, smart, oh, so smart! I was head over heels in love in high school. Then we graduated. Her father had land and money; my family had eight children and a working father. No way was that man going to let such a boy have his daughter.
> 
> So, in a few months she married a much older man. I spent the next several years in the army, then learning to make a living. I eventually married and we started our family. The next time I saw her she was 45 years old, barren. Today she is a white-headed old woman, a wealthy, childless widow.
> 
> What would it have been like to have stayed in that town and watched that, to see her often and know what might have been?
> 
> Has anyone been down that road?


Yes, I married the boy next door and we divorced. I watched him remarry, have 5 boys who all became Marines as he was. He traveled all over the world with his family and I would see him from time time when he visited his parents. He developed Alzhiemers and died. It was weird to know who his wife was and see his kids grow.


----------



## Evons hubby

roadless said:


> In my case I was a 'bad girl 'too, I just changed my ways.


hard for me to even visualize!


----------



## Forcast

starrynights said:


> Yes, I married the boy next door and we divorced. I watched him remarry, have 5 boys who all became Marines as he was. He traveled all over the world with his family and I would see him from time time when he visited his parents. He developed Alzhiemers and died. It was weird to know who his wife was and see his kids grow.


Me too on all that. Makes me sad at times. Mostly cause i feel i missed much of life just dealing with the life i chose


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## Macrocarpus

Willow;; My mama told me that in Bohemian that saying was "In the dark all cows are black". Same meaning.

Back to the story---She died in her sleep a few weeks back, a childless rich widow alone in her house. In all my life I've encountered only six women who so engaged my attention that I had some interest in their welfare. Only one yet living.


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## Danaus29

I wonder what Willow has been doing in the years since she last logged in. I miss her posts.

Macrocarpus, I am sorry for your loss.


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## Macrocarpus

Danaus---that torch burned out many years ago. I moved on to other sweethearts, impossible yet sweet as blackberry wine, married at last, raised my family, lost my wife, married again in my seventies. I actually felt sorry for the woman--not close to her siblings, a husband in his dotage while she was still a vibrant woman and at last alone in a country house, found dead in her bed. We choose our paths, some wisely, some not, some through ignorance and some by chance alone.


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## FarmboyBill

Theres a country song that I think the name of is, What might have been. Seems to fit this posting well.


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## Macrocarpus

Yo Bill!!!! We always wonder what might be down the path not taken. I suspect that is an ordinary human response to making choices. Sometimes we can look back and see that we made the right or wrong decisions, sometimes we are left wondering.


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## frogmammy

You ever think, Chuck, that she might have been HAPPY with the path she chose? Maybe not the path you want, but that doesn't mean that she didn't.

Mon


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## Macrocarpus

Mon; if she was happy with what she got, I dodged a big bullet. My idea of happiness was a thriving middle class life with a good woman and a house full of kids. Of course I hope she was happy--but I would not have been happy with that life.,. I met a ton of good women after I got out of the army, and some would have willingly taken me to raise, but I wanted to be able to support a family before I married---Put me behind a few years, but we managed to catch up.


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## frogmammy

Maybe the lady wasn't able to have children...would that have made YOUR life different if you had married?

Mon


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## Macrocarpus

Mon, when the woman cannot bear children, or if the husband cannot deliver the goods, you ADOPT. Lots of little ones out there needing a good home. If a couple has no children it is because they WANT no children. Some people prefer dogs or cats to children.


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## Terri

Adopting is not as easy as it used to be. I adopted but my adopted kids would not be able to adopt because they each have an inherited condition that would make raising kids more difficult. I suspect that they could produce children if they choose too, but not adopt.


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## Macrocarpus

Adopting was never as easy as one suspects. When my mother was a child the state of New York sent out train loads of waifs from which people chose children at each stop--my grandfather took a boy, an Irish kid named O'Connel, to raise. He became a cook in a restaurant and my father always referred to him as "Hamburger Bill" because his first job was cooking hamburgers.


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## Tom Horn

Oxankle said:


> Like most boys I had a sweetheart at home. Pretty, voluptuous, smart, oh, so smart! I was head over heels in love in high school. Then we graduated. Her father had land and money; my family had eight children and a working father. No way was that man going to let such a boy have his daughter.
> 
> So, in a few months she married a much older man. I spent the next several years in the army, then learning to make a living. I eventually married and we started our family. The next time I saw her she was 45 years old, barren. Today she is a white-headed old woman, a wealthy, childless widow.
> 
> What would it have been like to have stayed in that town and watched that, to see her often and know what might have been?
> 
> Has anyone been down that road?


I met my now ex wife because my Mother In-law wanted her to meet some "nice boys" as she was an only child and a true child of the '70's' and if it felt good to her she did it. I was a naïve, don't smoke, don't drink, don't say dirty words, walk the straight and narrow, very backward church boy.

We married much to the chagrin of my mother, who told me that if she knew that I was right with God that she would rather see me dead than married to my fiancé. 

After 26 years of marriage she dumped me.


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## Macrocarpus

This thread is running long. The woman I once desired is dead now and buried since my first post. I am an old man, my children are parents and grandparents, independent and living their own lives. We gathered at my son's house on Sunday, the entire clan, missing only their mother (long dead) and a grandson who now lives in NYC. We had all the extras---my wife, the grands intendeds, all the living in-laws and the son's wife's only sibling and his family. A grand gathering that showed me that I was way past my sell-by date. Today I return to the mundane tasks of "every day" that keep me going. The garden, the "place" and just keepin' on keepin' on. 

LOL, there were some toddlers there---one of them reminded me of me---When I was about three or perhaps four I waked in the night and called out "Mama, I want a drink of water". Three or four times I called, and in came my father with a glass of water in his outstretched arm. I sat up in bed and said "I wanted MAMA to bring it!" My father replied "DRINK THIS DAMNED WATER" in a tone of voice I've never forgotten, and which I have used to good effect as time or two. I drank the water. I still get a chuckle when I think of that night. I had good parents.


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