# Formulating a home ration for rabbits



## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

This is my winter "natural feeding" project. I want to figure out an optimal recipe for a rabbit feed that can be fed as a concentrate along with lots of hay and fresh greens. 

At the moment I am feeding a decent scratch grain with oats, barley and a bit of cracked corn, but the proportions change with the prices and I think I could do better buying whole grains and other ingredients and mixing my own. 

I also want to increase the protein content. At best the current mix would have about 9 - 10% protein and although some of the shortfall is made up by alfalfa and willow, I know it is likely still too low. I'd rather not use soy products, which are reputed to be hard for rabbits to digest, and am thinking that field peas may provide an alternative, along with black oil sunflower seeds and ground flax seed.

I'm looking for information and opinion on the subject and hope some of you are interested enough that we can get a good discussion going.


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## trinityoaks (Sep 17, 2008)

Yes, Maggie! I like this idea, too! One of the reasons (among others) I want to go with a natural feed is that I want to be able to grow the components myself.

For discussion purposes, I'll repeat here (from another thread) the recipe from the late Oren Reynolds, as described by Bob Bennett in the Storey book:

- - - - - 8< - - - - -
6 quarts oats
1 quart wheat
1 quart sunflower seed
1 quart barley (whole if available, otherwise crimped)
1 quart ****** corn (when available)
1 quart Terramycin crumbles

Mix oats, wheat, sunflower seed, barley, and ****** corn. Feed one part of this mixture to three parts pellets daily. Once a week, add Terramycin crumbles to feed mixture.
- - - - - 8< - - - - -

Mr. Bennett adds, "Mr. Reynolds began his feeding procedures before rabbit pellets were commercially available, and perhaps even before the pelleting machine was invented, for all I know."

I figure this is a good starting point, but I want to substitute hay for the
pellets, and add greens as available. I also don't believe in routinely feeding antibiotics and other medications to rabbits and other animals (much less my children).

I'm interested in input from others regarding the protein, etc., ratio of the above feed mixture, and what I can do to make it a "complete" feed.


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## ginnie5 (Jul 15, 2003)

Maggie when you say scratch grains is this the same "scratch" as I would feed chickens?


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Yes, Ginnie, its the same thing, but what's in it varies drastically from feed mill to feed mill. They change the formula according to price of the grains too, so I find I have to be vigilant not to get inferior stuff. One batch was so bad I did not use it for the rabbits or geese. My feed store apologized, said it must have been from when they switched over what they were milling, and provided a new bag free of charge. The poorer quality I fed to the chickens. They free range, so their ration is naturally supplemented.


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## damoc (Jul 14, 2007)

id like to work something out like this also but realy dont know enough about
rabbits yet.i do have some recipies for high protein cattle feeds most of which
contain soy but there are others that use cottonseed meal is that ok for rabbits?
is the barley you are using in your mix now cracked,rolled or whole?


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

Something you can use to boost your protein levels is Animax, its a supplement made by Purina, its their version of Animax, 28% protein. A few pellets a day is all they need, even the Flemish only get less than a teaspoon. I don't see any soy on the ingredients list. Warning, they will dig thru the bowl looking for it, so put it on top. Smells like licorice. In the winter I top dress with Horse feed, but stop in the summer, as its a 'warm' feed. Another food they really enjoy is fresh pumpkin, if I had the proper storage room I'd buy a bunch of them to use all winter, may try to do that next winter. An old Flemish breeder I knew used to feed his rabbits bagels, said the carbs kept the weight on them, its not bad as an occasional snack, I feed bread sometimes. Of course thats not natural feeding per se, but it is thrifty and no ones died yet. My rabbits like leftover pumpkin bread too---


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I've seen the huge bags of oats at the feed store down here, and the black oil sunflower seeds, but never wheat or barley.... do most feed stores carry it? I'm living in suburbia and my choices for feed stores is the local Tractor Supply...and the local Tractor Supply!


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## Skip (Mar 13, 2008)

If the flax seed is ground do the rabbits eat it?

My understanding is that the oils from the seed are beneficial so when I fed it to the chickens I would soak it over night in water, but I do not know if this would work with rabbits?


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Trinityoaks, I was looking at that formula again. Like you, I would not add the Terramycin and ****** corn is not likely readily available. Oats, wheat, barley and sunflower seeds sound like a good start though. I wonder why so many more parts oats than wheat or barley? I think I would want to even that up a bit. Field peas might be a useful addition and ground flax meal. Flax is expensive, but small quantities would likely be doable. 

Homestead Organics, an Ontario company, makes an organic rabbit food:

*Rabbit Feed 15% Protein: A grower ration for rabbits containing wheat, oats, barley, roasted soybeans, flax meal, peas, minerals and salt. Farmers should provide their own forage or purchase alfalfa pellets.*

Naturally any concentrate we devise would have to be fed with forage. Most of the alfalfa hay I get is well mixed with grasses, especially Timothy, which while healthy for the buns does have a lower protein level. Willow leaves are high in protein - 16 to 24 percent and they dry well for winter feed. (Here in Canada they would likely be closer to the 16%... something to do with our climate, I understand.)

I really see no reason why we cannot do this. It won't be perfect, but likely will be better than commercial diets and we will have more control over quality and origin of the ingredients.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Yikes, I can see there is lots of interest! Super.

I have to get some work done before I get back to this. I'll cogitate while I am packing ebay items for shipment...


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## trinityoaks (Sep 17, 2008)

MaggieJ said:


> Trinityoaks, I was looking at that formula again. Like you, I would not add the Terramycin and ****** corn is not likely readily available.


You're right about the ****** corn! They grow it here, but for some reason the feed store doesn't get any in. I wonder, could you substitute cracked corn?



> Oats, wheat, barley and sunflower seeds sound like a good start though. I wonder why so many more parts oats than wheat or barley?


Too bad Mr. Reynolds is no longer around to ask. I wonder whether Mr. Bennett knows? I know that oats are easily digestible, for humans at least, so maybe that's why? I don't think it's cost, because wheat is much less expensive than oats, at least here.

Is there a table somewhere that gives the protein, fiber, etc. breakdown of each of those grains?



> Field peas might be a useful addition, and ground flax meal. Flax is expensive, but small quantities would likely be doable.


Would that be for added protein?



> *Rabbit Feed 15% Protein: A grower ration for rabbits containing wheat, oats, barley, roasted soybeans, flax meal, peas, minerals and salt. Farmers should provide their own forage or purchase alfalfa pellets.*


Question here: our rabbit club leader's father (who has been raising rabbits for a while) says he was told that alfalfa hay is bad for bunnies, but I know that all of you feed alfalfa hay. I asked him why alfalfa pellets are ok but not alfalfa hay, and he didn't know. He's not adamant about it, just passing along what he was told. Any idea why he might have been told that? The only reason I can think of is the possibility of mold or dust, but precautions can be taken against those.



> I really see no reason why we cannot do this. It won't be perfect, but likely will be better than commercial diets and we will have more control over quality and origin of the ingredients.


And a lot of it we can grow ourselves, if necessary.


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## trinityoaks (Sep 17, 2008)

bluemoonluck said:


> I've seen the huge bags of oats at the feed store down here, and the black oil sunflower seeds, but never wheat or barley.... do most feed stores carry it?


We can get wheat and barley at our local feed store, which is connected to a granary. Pretty much everything comes in 50lb sacks. The barley comes only rolled, not whole or hulled, though. I'll have to look for the sunflower seeds. I would imagine they carry it, but I haven't looked for it yet.


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## trinityoaks (Sep 17, 2008)

Skip said:


> If the flax seed is ground do the rabbits eat it?


My understanding is that flax seed goes rancid very quickly after grinding, so we may want to get whole flax seed and grind as needed.

I'll have to check the feed store for flax seed (along with sunflower seed). I know I can get it (ready for human consumption) by mail/Internet order from Bob's Red Mill, but as Maggie says, that would get expensive.


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## trinityoaks (Sep 17, 2008)

damoc said:


> i do have some recipies for high protein cattle feeds most of which contain soy but there are others that use cottonseed meal is that ok for rabbits?


Someone else can correct me, but my understanding is that cottonseed meal is NOT ok for rabbits. Too bad, because I live in cotton country and could probably get the cotton seed meal pretty cheaply. I'm also not fond of the idea of soy, at least not in large quantities.



> is the barley you are using in your mix now cracked,rolled or whole?


The recipe says crimped. At my feed store I can get only rolled (which I think is flatter and a little more "processed" than crimped). I think that rolled should be ok, though.


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

I myself do not feed alfalfa hay, because it seems too rich and have had the buns get soft stools from it, maybe its too 'hot' unprocessed? I don't like feeding timothy, because they waste so much, and really prefer a good grass hay, because they'll eat every bit. Flax seed is expensive, and most rabbits will readily eat it the way it is, its a fairly soft seed to chew. Here's an ingredients list for the Animax

http://www.lumber2.com/PURINA_MILLS_ANIMAX_SUPPLEMENT_p/pm0001179.htm


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## trinityoaks (Sep 17, 2008)

Honorine said:


> Here's an ingredients list for the Animax
> 
> http://www.lumber2.com/PURINA_MILLS_ANIMAX_SUPPLEMENT_p/pm0001179.htm


Once again, the listing is pretty vague:



> Ingredients: Plant protein products, processed grain by-products, grain products, molasses products, roughage products, sucrose, calcium carbonate, dried whey solubles, moncalcium phosphate, dicalcium phosphate, salt, calcium lignin sulfonate, animal fate preserved with iron oxide, calcium pantothenate, anise flavor, fenugreek flavor, vitamin B-12 supplement, riboflavin supplement, vitamin A supplement, vitamin E supplement, copper sulfate, niacin supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, ferrous sulfate, potassium iodide, manganous oxide, cobalt carbonate, sodium molybdate, manganese sulfate, zinc oxide, zinc sulfate, sodium sleenite. Ruminant meat and bone meal free.


And it does have animal fat in it (at least I think "animal fate" is a typo and they meant animal fat). It also has dried whey--isn't that also bad for bunnies?

At any rate, a commercial product like this still doesn't fit my preference for something I can grow myself, if necessary.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

damoc said:


> id like to work something out like this also but realy dont know enough about
> rabbits yet.i do have some recipies for high protein cattle feeds most of which
> contain soy but there are others that use cottonseed meal is that ok for rabbits?
> is the barley you are using in your mix now cracked,rolled or whole?


Ann Kanable, in her book *Raising Rabbits* says that both soybean and cottonseed are difficult for rabbits to digest. Of the two, soy seems to be the lesser of the evils. I'd like to avoid both.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I read some where that feild peas have the same protien as alfapha.
But they either needed soaked or grouund before feeding. As they could cause compaction in the gut.
I put a few in my rabbits crock to see if they would eat it and it was left untouched.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

SquashNut said:


> I read some where that feild peas have the same protien as alfapha.
> But they either needed soaked or grouund before feeding. As they could cause compaction in the gut.
> I put a few in my rabbits crock to see if they would eat it and it was left untouched.


Interesting... Makes sense that they would at least need to be cracked for the buns to get a grip on them. Soaking them might be easier and may also make them more palatable.

Anyone know if dried green peas (garden peas) are also suitable? 

I guess we'd better look into the possibility of compaction in the gut before we get too enthusiastic about peas. Maybe I'll email Tom at Homestead Organics and ask about the peas in his mix. He's usually very good about answering inquiries.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Honorine said:


> I myself do not feed alfalfa hay, because it seems too rich and have had the buns get soft stools from it, maybe its too 'hot' unprocessed? I don't like feeding timothy, because they waste so much, and really prefer a good grass hay, because they'll eat every bit. Flax seed is expensive, and most rabbits will readily eat it the way it is, its a fairly soft seed to chew. Here's an ingredients list for the Animax
> 
> http://www.lumber2.com/PURINA_MILLS_ANIMAX_SUPPLEMENT_p/pm0001179.htm


The "alfalfa hay" I get is really a mix of alfalfa and either timothy or mixed grasses. It seems to me that the reason a lot of people avoid alfalfa hay is that they are already feeding alfalfa in their pellets. That could be too much of a good thing. I've never had a problem with the alfalfa hay causing poopy butt in my buns. 

The ANIMAX may be a good product, but like Trinityoaks I am looking to get away from commercial mixtures. Rabbits should be able to do well on a good variety of natural, unprocessed foods (or lightly processed, as with rolled or cracked grain). I know this is not for everyone, but it is the next logical step for those of us who no longer feed pelleted feed.


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## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

I have a few protein percentages listed in my notes, but I can't vouch for them being completely accurate. I pulled the numbers from various sources while I've been researching what home-grown feed I'm going to supply next year.

wheat 17%
oats 13%
BOSS 16%
corn 8%
millet 11%
mangel 6%
amaranth 12-18%

Another thing to consider is mixing by volume vs mixing by mass. That may be part of the reason for the larger volume of oats in the earlier formula posted? I really need to find my scale, I never found it when we unpacked the rabbit stuff.

Kayleigh


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

I think each person will have to decide for himself whether to serve ingredients whole, cracked, crimped, rolled or ground... depending on personal preference, acceptability to the buns and local availability. I think if I can stay with whole grains and seeds for the basic mix and then have a second mix of the extras that one can add to maybe a week's worth of the grains, that might be best. No time for ground ingredients to go rancid or lose nutrients that way.

I'll experiment with flax seed and peas - still have buns that are waiting to go to camp - and see what works. 

Keep the ideas coming, folks... we'll get there.

Minerals are another consideration. My leaning at the moment is to provide them on the side free choice... but still thinking about that.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

bluemoonluck said:


> I've seen the huge bags of oats at the feed store down here, and the black oil sunflower seeds, but never wheat or barley.... do most feed stores carry it? I'm living in suburbia and my choices for feed stores is the local Tractor Supply...and the local Tractor Supply!


Ask them! If not perhaps you could get some by driving a little ways out into the countryside. There have to be feed stores somewhere. Try the Yellow Pages for some nearby small towns.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Skip said:


> If the flax seed is ground do the rabbits eat it?
> 
> My understanding is that the oils from the seed are beneficial so when I fed it to the chickens I would soak it over night in water, but I do not know if this would work with rabbits?


I don't know the best way to feed the flax seed to the buns, Skip. Soaking is an interesting idea. The problem with whole is that if swallowed whole they tend to go right on through the system without the nutrients being extracted... or at least so I have heard. 

One more thing I need to find out!


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## trinityoaks (Sep 17, 2008)

MaggieJ said:


> Ann Kanable, in her book *Raising Rabbits*


I just looked it up, to put it on my Christmas list, but apparently it's out of print. 



> says that both soybean and cottonseed are difficult for rabbits to digest. Of the two, soy seems to be the lesser of the evils. I'd like to avoid both.


So would I.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Questions:

1) If soy is bad, than is calf manna a bad thing for me to be feeding my nursing does?

2) If I mix my food myself (oats, wheat, barley, flax, etc), how will I keep my rabbits from scrabbling? Do you think mixing it all together with blackstrap molasses will help with that??

Ideas.....


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

******* said:


> I have a few protein percentages listed in my notes, but I can't vouch for them being completely accurate. I pulled the numbers from various sources while I've been researching what home-grown feed I'm going to supply next year.
> 
> wheat 17%
> oats 13%
> ...


I know 17% is not right for wheat... It's more like 12%. 

And you are perfectly right that we need to decide which to use, weight or volume and use it throughout.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

trinityoaks said:


> I just looked it up, to put it on my Christmas list, but apparently it's out of print.


No problem there... go to www.abebooks.com and you will find oodles of used copies. Usually there are some for just $1 - $2 but check shipping costs... they vary wildly from seller to seller.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

bluemoonluck said:


> Questions:
> 
> 1) If soy is bad, than is calf manna a bad thing for me to be feeding my nursing does?


Not necessarily. The amounts you give are small, aren't they? Something that might be okay when it makes up only a tiny fraction of the total diet might not be so good in large quantities. 



> 2) If I mix my food myself (oats, wheat, barley, flax, etc), how will I keep my rabbits from scrabbling? Do you think mixing it all together with blackstrap molasses will help with that??
> 
> Ideas.....


Good question. My rabbits don't seem to be very bad for this. One of the freezer camp crew likes to scrabble and I was determined not to keep it as a breeder for that very reason. Turned out to be a buck anyway, so he'd have gone anyway.

Blackstrap molasses is a good supplement, and since rabbits have a sweet tooth, a touch of it added might help. Don't overdo it! Any idea what yours are scrabbling *for* and what it is they are avoiding?


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## trinityoaks (Sep 17, 2008)

MaggieJ said:


> No problem there... go to www.abebooks.com and you will find oodles of used copies. Usually there are some for just $1 - $2 but check shipping costs... they vary wildly from seller to seller.


I guess I'll just have to get it for myself for Christmas. I think my family would find the various used-book sites too confusing.


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## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

MaggieJ said:


> I know 17% is not right for wheat... It's more like 12%.
> 
> And you are perfectly right that we need to decide which to use, weight or volume and use it throughout.


I think the number I have is for the middlings, rather than plain wheat. (And I was goofy and didn't note it with the other numbers.) Obviously they are a lot more processed than plain wheat, but they also have the benefit of being leftovers from producing "people food". 

This isn't where I pulled my other numbers from, but this page has a breakdown on wheat middlings, corn, barley and oats. They are listed on table 2.

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/livestoc/as1175w.htm

The tricky part is that homegrown stuff is going to vary wildly from place to place, and unless you have it analyzed you can't be positive that your grain has the same nutrient content as the average for that variety. It's something I'm struggling to take into account when I'm making my plans for next year. It will probably mean that I end up doing a lot more of my feeding "by feel" than I'd really like, since I am a numbers person.

Kayleigh


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## Beaniemom (May 25, 2007)

So, here is the recipe I worked out when I did it, I used Oats, Barley Alafalfa Pellets and Soybean Meal, which worked out to be 17% protein, 3.3% fat and 14% fiber (If my Math was right, LOL)

I mixed it 40% Alfalfa, 25% Oats and 22% Barley, 1.2% Soybean. You could use Sunflower, and that would bump down the protein slightly and bump up the fiber (Probably the fat too)

I'll admit I abandoned my attempts, and the chickens are now eating the soybean meal (Takes a long long time to feed 80 pounds of it!) Some of the rabbits didn't like the Alfalfa pellets, plus the soybean meal fell thru the bottoms of the feeders, so I would use the sunflowers instead I think. 

The Alfalfa pellets may have caused some poopy butts, I'm just not sure, then again, could have been my water. I've been mixing the oats and barley into the pellets, with no signs of poop butt. I just added a small amount of the Alfalfa pellets back in, and so far, so good.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

MaggieJ, If I put anything other than pellets in their J-feeders, about half of my buns will scrabble the whole lot of it out looking for the "extras". It doesn't seem to matter what I've added, and it doesn't matter if I mix it all together or if I put a teaspoon of the extras on top of the part they eat out of or not. I do hand-feed 2 raisins to all the adult buns every day, it seems to foster good relations. 

For my nursing does, I feed a mix that's about a tablespoon of Calf Manna with about a tablespoon of oats and maybe a dozen black oil sunflower seeds. I give this to them in a *separate *little ceramic bowl, which seems to work. Although one of my does - great doe, solid producer - cannot STAND to have anything in her cage besides the nesting box when she is nursing and she goes nuts and attacks the crock and smashes it all around her cage and gets her panties all in a bunch :duel: , so needless to say she doesn't get one!


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

It would be great to have a pelerizer. cost is around $700 for one that runs on desiel.
Is molasses good or bad on the rabbit feed? I am giving some COB mix to up body heat right now. There is alot of mollasses on it.
I used to have a seperate dish for the COB mix, but as it gets colder this year, my rabbits are starting to respect their food more and no one is scratching their food out of their hopper feeders..
The last doe I had that did that was culled.


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

MaggieJ said:


> The "alfalfa hay" I get is really a mix of alfalfa and either timothy or mixed grasses. It seems to me that the reason a lot of people avoid alfalfa hay is that they are already feeding alfalfa in their pellets. That could be too much of a good thing. I've never had a problem with the alfalfa hay causing poopy butt in my buns.
> 
> The ANIMAX may be a good product, but like Trinityoaks I am looking to get away from commercial mixtures. Rabbits should be able to do well on a good variety of natural, unprocessed foods (or lightly processed, as with rolled or cracked grain). I know this is not for everyone, but it is the next logical step for those of us who no longer feed pelleted feed.


I mentioned the Animax because I've found that my rabbits do best on a higher protein diet, and it would be a good way to supplement if the rest of their diet was lower in protein.

I'm a 'feed what works' sort of person with my rabbits, I don't have a problem with feeding them something that has animal fat in it, or whey, or anything that I myself would eat. I'm not all that worried about things(like soy or whey) that may or may not be good for them, as we're talking about animals that have a short lifespan, and are going to be food at some point. I'm more interested in production and performance, which protein levels can influence. 

This is Barbi Browns site, she has a mix that she advocates using, I find the oyster shell for calcium interesting. Might be something in there that may help some folks.

http://www.barbibrownsbunnies.com/wholegrain.htm


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Honorine said:


> I mentioned the Animax because I've found that my rabbits do best on a higher protein diet, and it would be a good way to supplement if the rest of their diet was lower in protein.
> 
> I'm a 'feed what works' sort of person with my rabbits, I don't have a problem with feeding them something that has animal fat in it, or whey, or anything that I myself would eat. I'm not all that worried about things(like soy or whey) that may or may not be good for them, as we're talking about animals that have a short lifespan, and are going to be food at some point. I'm more interested in production and performance, which protein levels can influence.
> 
> ...


Honorine, I understand and respect your point of view. There is certainly nothing wrong with doing what works and if this is working with your rabbits, then it is natural for you to continue with it. 

Perhaps I should have put more emphasis on the "natural feeding" idea in my original post. There are quite a few people on this board with a strong interest in getting away from the processed commercial feeds of all types. We are reinventing the wheel, trying to get back to the methods used for raising rabbits before commercial foods became available. 

We are in a particularly good position to do this well, since we have modern information at our fingertips. I have a feeling that what we are doing could be important if the economy worsens or the infrastructure breaks down. I wouldn't want to wait until then to explore the old ways with a new twist.

That said, I do appreciate your input. You are very knowledgeable about rabbits and I always read your posts with interest.


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## dlwelch (Aug 26, 2002)

bluemoonluck said:


> Questions:
> 
> 1) If soy is bad, than is calf manna a bad thing for me to be feeding my nursing does?
> 
> ...


Calf Manna has not proven detrimental to my breeding rabbits. 
Calf Manna is mixed with dehy alfalfa, ground oats, soybean meal,
wheat midds and feeding oatmeal as the ration for my breeding stock. 
I can see a bit of pink in almost every pellet!

If I remember correctly, molasses often increases the water
consumption by rabbits. 



> I know 17% is not right for wheat... It's more like 12%.


It's about 12% for the grain. Wheat bran, midds and shorts are
around 17% The latter are also higher in fat and fiber than the
grain. The grain is higher in Net energy for lactation.

Good luck with your project. 

Linda Welch


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

Maggie I've seen people be rude and scoff at you and your natural ways, I never have. I participated in your thread because I like you and hoped to add some input that others reading might also find helpful and be able to integrate it into their feeding program. Many folks may find themselves unable, whether for cost or availability or even time constraints to go all the way with a natural feed program, but still may benefit by knowing how to create their own top dressing, that was my only thought. Surely half the way is better than not at all. I hope that the above is not what it appears, a gentle chastisement that I do not belong on your thread.


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## garnetmoth (Oct 16, 2008)

Im so glad I found this forum!
I was looking up articles on PubMed at work, and found some interesting information about rabbit feed- Maybe I should be taking notes and get you all a summary of what I find!

So far, i was reading about forage-finished meat vs. corn-finished. The forage finished has a higher pH, and meat quality supposedly suffers for this, where as corn finished meat has a lower, more acid pH. Im planning on processing and putting in my dads deep freeze same day, but that might contribute to funny tasting meat...?

I had read some great articles this summer about forage-fed/ developing country rabbits, and sweet potato leaves and prickly pear pads are supposed to be great feeds. (can't do that year-round where I am!)

ok, back to work for a bit!


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Honorine said:


> Maggie I've seen people be rude and scoff at you and your natural ways, I never have. I participated in your thread because I like you and hoped to add some input that others reading might also find helpful and be able to integrate it into their feeding program. Many folks may find themselves unable, whether for cost or availability or even time constraints to go all the way with a natural feed program, but still may benefit by knowing how to create their own top dressing, that was my only thought. Surely half the way is better than not at all. I hope that the above is not what it appears, a gentle chastisement that I do not belong on your thread.


I certainly did not mean it that way, Honorine.  Sometimes I think I only open my mouth to change feet. 

You are quite right, of course, that it does not have to be either/or. There is lots of room for the whole spectrum of feeding programs. Please excuse my clumsiness.


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## Skip (Mar 13, 2008)

MaggieJ said:


> I don't know the best way to feed the flax seed to the buns, Skip. Soaking is an interesting idea. The problem with whole is that if swallowed whole they tend to go right on through the system without the nutrients being extracted... or at least so I have heard.


Yes this was my understanding also. And it can work as a laxative. I think fibre is healthy for them.

Funny thing is yesterday I was reading online about feeding rabbits, and it was exactly opposite of what I had learnt. 

http://www.cbvetclinic.com/articles/rabbit care.pdf


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

The reason you don't feed alfalfa hay and pellets is because both contain mostly alfalfa. Clover hay does provide higher levels of protien than grass hay but I can't find the link to that right now. 

I would never feed any antibiotics on a regular basis, ditch the teramyacin. 

I try to feed as much natural food as I can but there is no nutrient content information for the stuff I have on hand or readily available. Currently my rabbits get oats, pumpkin or pumpkin seeds, mixed leaves (mostly maple and sycamore) and some pellets. I am trying to grow more stuff for the rabbits and looking at ways of preserving and storing that stuff. I seriously would have problems if I couldn't get hold of commercial pellets. I have problems with that, I want to be able to feed the rabbits if I couldn't get hold of pellets or at the very least become less dependent on commercial food. Besides, just like human food, processing reduces the natural nutrient content. 

I wonder if corn cobs have any nutritional content. The rabbits have been chewing on those the past few weeks.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I have read artcles that indicate that the best way to prepare a home made feed for rabbits is ground and baked in a cookie/biscuit.
The biscuit could include the ground feild peas, whole wheat flour, flax ect. that may fall through the feeders.
I used to make a type of cookie for my rabbits. I made sure to make a batch when ever I used the oven for our cooking. 
I've also included milk in them when my husband brings home milk from the store that is too old to sell.
MY dogs eat these as well.


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## damoc (Jul 14, 2007)

ive got a book on feeds and it lists corn cobs as 0% digestable protein and
45.7 %total digestable nutrients

dry cattail or tule hay it lists as 2.3% dig protein 36.5 total digestable nutrients.

clover hay varies a lot depending on type seems to average 10 % dig protein
50% total digestable nutrient.

vetch hay common 10%dig protein 55% total dig nutrients

what is the difference between barley hay and barley straw?

what would a low protein diet cause in the rabbits? just a slower than normal
growth? would this realy matter if it cut down on feed costs?
or would it cause runts and litter problems?


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

what is the difference between barley hay and barley straw?

Grain hays are produced by cutting while the plant is still green and still has the seeds head included.
straw is harvested later and the seed head is removed for use.
We feed our rabbits oat hay and they love it.


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## Jeanette (Jul 29, 2008)

Here is a link that you might find useful - http://www.lionsgrip.com/protein.html
The site is geared to feeding chickens a natural diet but much of the information there is appropriate to any animal that eats a lot of grain.
The page linked here is not the main page by the way. The page linked above has a chart about 2/3's of the way down the page that lists the protein content of all kinds of grains and food items that might be fed to poultry. I hope you find it helpful. 
I have been using an "all-grain" mix from TSC. I can't find my last label but the primary ingredients are corn, oats, wheat, barley and molasses and I think the overall protein content is about 9%. I also feed alfalfa hay, coastal hay and greens and so forth when I can.
Thanks for starting this thread Maggie! I will continue to watch it with interest.

Jeanette
Texas


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## denaliguide (Aug 30, 2008)

I guess, so far so good, however I will look to re-formulate sooner or later from the feedback our bunnies are giving us.

Right now I am feeding the grain I bought from farm supply, which consisted of 50 KG of alfalfa pellets, 25 KG of Oats, 25 KG of Barley, & 40 KG of Wheat.
Several rabbits really really love the mix, a few dont like it, and the rest either tolerate it or eat anything I would give them. I threw in fragments of a Canadian Stockman Mineral Block, and they have been moving them around and apparently licking them, so I THINK they are getting minerals enuf. There have been no problems that I can attribute to feed, so as I said, so far, so good.

As an aside, we got a juicer for specific purpose which has been great, and we have developed a lot of vegtable pulp, which when we dry it over the woodstove, has made very interesting rabbit chips, that the bunnies seem to love. We had tried to keep the fruit content appropriate, but either way the bunnies love it, as it is very chewy for them and they try to rip it out of my grip.

DG


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## jil101ca (Jul 2, 2007)

I haven't bought a bag of rabbit pellets since Sept. I tried feeding them scratch grain but found it very dusty and didn't like it. I then tried a whole mixed grain but it was mostly oats which clog up my feeders ( I use screen bottom feeders) For the most part I feed whole barley and wheat mixed half and half. On the poor weeks they just get barley. They get hay twice a day, it's a mixed hay, timothy/alfalfa/clover. the grain they get fed at night, however much they can clean up in 24hrs. Now I haven't been keeping track of protein but I do know that the fryers are growing just as well as when they were on pellets. 2 does I culled last week still had a large amount of body cavity fat around the kidneys Couldn't see the kidneys. I also found that the does had more meat and tasted better than when they were eating pellets. I have stopped buying commercial made feed for everyone in the barn now and only feed grains I mix myself...


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

jil101ca said:


> I haven't bought a bag of rabbit pellets since Sept. I tried feeding them scratch grain but found it very dusty and didn't like it. I then tried a whole mixed grain but it was mostly oats which clog up my feeders ( I use screen bottom feeders) For the most part I feed whole barley and wheat mixed half and half. On the poor weeks they just get barley. They get hay twice a day, it's a mixed hay, timothy/alfalfa/clover. the grain they get fed at night, however much they can clean up in 24hrs. Now I haven't been keeping track of protein but I do know that the fryers are growing just as well as when they were on pellets. 2 does I culled last week still had a large amount of body cavity fat around the kidneys Couldn't see the kidneys. I also found that the does had more meat and tasted better than when they were eating pellets. I have stopped buying commercial made feed for everyone in the barn now and only feed grains I mix myself...


Interesting, JIL, I didn't know your buns were "off pellet". I'm feeding mine in a similar way but using the scratch, which is mainly oats and barley with some corn. But it has gone up in price and this last batch was rather dusty... less whole grain... so I'm planning to go to whole barley and oats with perhaps wheat as well. I feed a mixed alfalfa/grass hay for the most part and sometimes timothy hay as well... as much as they want. They do waste some, but its not really wasted since it goes down on the floor for goose bedding and then onto the garden as mulch. I also give some kind of fresh food or dried leaves (willow or hard maple) each day. I wish I had worked a bit harder during the summer drying greens.

I want to work out something a bit richer in protein, however... I know my feeding plan is not protein-rich enough at this point. Some peas and sunflower seeds would help. It's been difficult. We've been without a vehicle for most of the past month. The old van is back on the road as of yesterday but now we have this winter storm so our trip to town this morning was quick... no time for extras. 

I think the rabbit meat tastes better now than when we were feeding pellets too. Like the difference between store-bought chicken and home-grown free range.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Could any one quess how much of the pellets are grain and how much are hay/forage?
I would think that is one thing we need to know before making your own mix. if your feeding grain rather than pellets you would only feed around an ounce of grain per adult and the rest hay.
And would you have to make up for the lack of mineral and vit. supplements that pellets have? For this you would need to provide a fresh vegetable every day, if my guess is right. Easy to do in the summer, but not so easy right now. I thought about sprouting, but the amount needed and the space to do it, doesn;t work for us.


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## jil101ca (Jul 2, 2007)

I went off pellet when I started growing out some roasters for an old Italian man, he wants 10 to 20 rabbits about 6 to 8 lbs, under a year and is paying me the equal value of $15 each for some dairy/meat cross bred goats. He wanted his roasters fed only barley. He said it made for better meat. I decided with the price of pellets everyone would eat the whole grain. I want better meat too. I figure if everyone is happy, healthy and gaining like they should, Which they are, then all is good.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

jil101ca said:


> I went off pellet when I started growing out some roasters for an old Italian man, he wants 10 to 20 rabbits about 6 to 8 lbs, under a year and is paying me the equal value of $15 each for some dairy/meat cross bred goats. He wanted his roasters fed only barley. He said it made for better meat. I decided with the price of pellets everyone would eat the whole grain. I want better meat too. I figure if everyone is happy, healthy and gaining like they should, Which they are, then all is good.


Is this your breeding stock too? If so how often do you breed?


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## jil101ca (Jul 2, 2007)

When they have kits  I rebreed when the kits are 5 weeks, when there are no kits then I breed every 36 days until I get kits ( I really need to learn how to palpate) The Bat had a busy summer and all my other does are just coming of age and the barn is cold so not many kits going on, except my minilop who has had 5 in Oct and has a litter of 6 with her now.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I guess you haven't been off pellets long enough to see a drop in conception rates, if there is going to he one.
I cann't palpitate either. Fortunetly my does don't miss much any more. I guess the 2 strikes and your out rule works.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

The link that Jeanette posted (Thanks, Jeanette! :goodjob: ) has a formula for calculating protein percentages in mixed feeds. I think this could be very helpful. http://www.lionsgrip.com/protein.html

I am going to have to do some number crunching one day soon (not my forte, but oh, well!) to see what I can come up with.

Minerals can be added with mineralized salt blocks added free choice.

I can see where someone with a large rabbitry might find it difficult to provide daily fresh foods in winter, but dried foods also have vitamins. Rabbits can live and reproduce on good quality hay alone... although I do not recommend it. We are working toward a much more diverse diet than just hay. Grain plays a small but important role.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Thats what I was wondering if any thing in the hay was lost during the drying/storage, and if it could be replaced with fresh vegetables and forage products.
I know I get ran down eating canned goods all winter and have started sprouting for us humans. Just not sure if I can make enough for the 30 plus rabbits I usually have.
i know they really appreciated the kale bed till it got snowed in this last week.
I don't have a salt block with a label on it right now or I would compare it to my pellet label.


Ya, one of these days we will have a serious thread about feeding with out pellets. We always get stuck and put it off.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

As far as I can tell, commercial pellets are mostly dried alfalfa and grain products that have been processed, which probably destroys a lot of nutrients. They make up for this by adding vitamins and minerals, but this strikes me as very much like humans living on processed foods and taking a vitamin pill to make up any shortfalls. I don't think drying foods per se destroys many nutrients. Excess heat, too much sunlight, dampness... these will all cause nutrient loss. I think our best bet lies in offering a variety of nutritious foods, fresh and dried, plus mineral salts. It is undoubtedly more difficult to do in a rabbitry with 30 plus rabbits than in one with a handful of breeders and a couple of litters of kits. This is one of the reasons (not the only one) why I usually do not breed rabbits all winter. Taking 5 - 6 adults through the winter when they are not breeding is a lot different than trying to feed voracious fryers and working does in the same conditions.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I am not sure this makes sence but, if every thing gets real bad we wont be able to bags of grain any more than we can get pellets.
What bags of grain we will be able to get i don't think I'll be sharing with my rabbits.
If that is the case then you can feed potatoes and other starchy veggies, but you'll need to offer up to 5 times the amount that they are getting of grain. My rabbits even in the winter get our potato peels now.
Unfortunatly my garden will not grow potatoes, funny since we live in Idaho, huh.
What we need to be studying is how they raise rabbit in 3rd world countries.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

SquashNut said:


> I am not sure this makes sence but, if every thing gets real bad we wont be able to bags of grain any more than we can get pellets.
> What bags of grain we will be able to get i don't think I'll be sharing with my rabbits.
> If that is the case then you can feed potatoes and other starchy veggies, but you'll need to offer up to 5 times the amount that they are getting of grain. My rabbits even in the winter get our potato peels now.
> Unfortunatly my garden will not grow potatoes, funny since we live in Idaho, huh.
> What we need to be studying is how they raise rabbit in 3rd world countries.


I totally agree with you there, SquashNut. Looking at how Britain raised rabbits during the war is also very helpful.


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## garnetmoth (Oct 16, 2008)

I was looking at sites with "rabbit forage" or some other search terms recently- thats where I learned that sweet potato leaves and prickly pear cactus pads could be fed as a decent portion of intake and not harm the rabbits....

When we had chickens, we moved the fenced-in area and had a great stand of milo(?) and sunflowers where they had been, so I know that I can grow that without really trying.

looks like sunflower seeds are quite high in protein, (if i can keep the birds off them!)

I do really like the ideas in this home-feed thread specifically, and the larger ideas of how to raise meat if the SHTF.... its just so funny to me price-wise, we live in the city, $11 for 25 lbs of pellets. 

Were within about 15 mins of an OK feed store that I plan to visit this week for larger bags of grain. and I bought 5 good bales of hay for $15. BALES. 

I do think if its a gradual economic slowdown, we'll be able to afford basic foods like whole grains longer than specialty items like pellets.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I was wondering if sweet potatoes could be fed to rabbits. I may have to grow them again.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

damoc said:


> ive got a book on feeds and it lists corn cobs as 0% digestable protein and
> 45.7 %total digestable nutrients
> 
> dry cattail or tule hay it lists as 2.3% dig protein 36.5 total digestable nutrients.
> ...


Damoc, my apologies, I meant to answer your post but got sidetracked. Slower growth on a lower protein diet is pretty much a given... and no, in itself it does not matter that much as long as you are raising for your own table and do not mind roasters instead of fryers. If you are raising rabbits to be sold to a processor, a lot of them have a weight and age range that must be met.

The question is, how does it affect litter size, general health and well-being of the rabbits and I think in all honesty that we are still working on this. In one sense, I think lower protein is healthier... the rabbits tend not to gain excess weight as long as grain feeding is moderate. But I don't know yet how it affects overall reproduction. In the wild, a rabbit's diet tends to be lower in protein than a domestic rabbit fed on pellets, but are wild rabbits under as much pressure to breed constantly as domestic rabbits? I don't think we have all the answers yet. But we're working on it.

BTW, that book sounds interesting. Could you provide the author and title?


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## trinityoaks (Sep 17, 2008)

I made a spreadsheet from the chart on the chicken feed page MaggieJ mentioned, and I plugged in numbers for Oren Reynolds' recipe (minus ****** corn, which is hard to find, and the Terramycin crumbles), along with alfalfa hay. I came up with a total protein ratio of 16.5%.


```
GRAIN	      PARTS	      PROTEIN %        TOTAL	
Oats	        6	x	14.0	=	84.0	
Wheat	        1	x	12.5	=	12.5	
Sunflower seed	1	x	26.3	=	26.3	
Barley	        1	x	12.3	=	12.3	
Alfalfa hay	4	x	20.0	=	80.0	
TOTALS	       13		               215.1	

	215.1	Ã·	13.0	=	16.5% protein
```

Note that the proportions given are by weight, not volume (Mr. Reynolds' recipe is parts by volume). I used 4 parts for the amount of alfalfa hay just as a trial to see where the total protein ratio would end up. I keep seeing the protein ratio for alfalfa range from 17% to 26% by weight. I decided to take a "conservative middle ground" and use a ratio of 20%. If someone else has a more accurate ratio, please speak up!

Incidentally, while I was looking for the protein ratio for alfalfa, I found this bit:



> Because it's high in protein, alfalfa is an ideal crop for livestock. Unfortunately, when it's processed by storing and fermenting its clippings in silos, up to 85 percent of alfalfa's protein breaks down into nonprotein nitrogen, which can't be used as efficiently by the cows' bodies.


The full article is here:

http://westernfarmpress.com/mag/farming_study_stretches_alfalfa/

I read on another site (I've forgotten which one--I read so many) that heat processing, including some pelletizing, also causes a drastic reduction in protein ratio.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

This is excellent, Trinityoaks! :goodjob: Much clearer the way you do it than messing about with that square. (Can you tell I'm not a numbers person?  )

Did you choose measuring by weight because you feel it is more accurate than by volume or for some other reason? I think it *is* more accurate, but measuring ingredients by volume is easier. So many scoops or buckets of this and that.

The only problem I see at a glance is that most alfalfa hay is not pure alfalfa. It is usually an alfalfa/timothy or alfalfa/grass mix. So we may still be off in estimating the amount of protein. I know *pre-bloom* and *early bloom* alfalfa are far higher in protein than *late* or *post-bloom*, but I'm not sure if the percentages given for alfalfa hay mean pure alfalfa or if they are taking into consideration the grass content. I'll read the article when I get the chance and see if there are any answers there. But we would have the same problem no matter what system we used to calculate the protein.

Processing into pellets does cause a loss of nutrients. It's convenience food for rabbits and this is one of the reasons I am convinced we can do better with a home-mixed ration.


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## KurtBrubaker (Aug 30, 2008)

Jeanette said:


> Here is a link that you might find useful - http://www.lionsgrip.com/protein.html
> The site is geared to feeding chickens a natural diet but much of the
> 
> Jeanette
> Texas


I especially like the part about worms and yellow jackets as protein! too bad the rabbits are a little more particular about their diet.

Chickweed (Stellaria media) may be worth considering for a protein boost. Following a few links from a quick search turned up reports of protein levels in teh 15-20% range. This is a very cold tolerant weed - it grows actively here throughout the winter without cover (easily taking low temps of less than20F). I would guess it would grow vigorously in much colder parts of NA under a hoop greenhouse environment.

The bunnies seem to enjoy it, as well. An old friend of ours who lived in Japan during WW2 mentioned that they fed it frequently to their rabbits as part of their scrounged feed.

Kurt


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## trinityoaks (Sep 17, 2008)

MaggieJ said:


> This is excellent, Trinityoaks! :goodjob: Much clearer the way you do it than messing about with that square. (Can you tell I'm not a numbers person?  )


I guess I'm a nerd. 



> Did you choose measuring by weight because you feel it is more accurate than by volume or for some other reason?


I just used what I had. The protein numbers on the chart on the chicken feed page are by weight which, as you say, is more accurate. I figure that we can each measure the volume of a given weight of our own ingredients (which, I'm sure, will vary considerably from place to place and supplier to supplier). I certainly intend to do so, in order to simplify rationing at feeding time.



> The only problem I see at a glance is that most alfalfa hay is not pure alfalfa. It is usually an alfalfa/timothy or alfalfa/grass mix. So we may still be off in estimating the amount of protein.


True. I had a time of it finding a good number for the protein content of alfalfa. The best I could come up with was that range of 17-26%. Then, as you say, there is the problem of mixes. I guess that the best approach for now would be to use the protein ratio from the hay supplier if available, and if not, to use a middle-of-the-road number to estimate. Do you think 20% is reasonable for that purpose?


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Chickweed is a good plant for buns. I didn't know about its cold-tolerant properties. I wonder what other plants would grow all winter in an unheated hoophouse or greenhouse. Could be useful for those of you living in a more moderate climate than Ontario's. Thanks, Kurt!


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## Hillbilly Hares (Aug 31, 2011)

Hello everyone, I came across this thread when I started searching for Oren Reynolds recipe, we are wanting to move to natural feed. I see a lot of helpful information in this thread but since it is from 2006 I am hoping that some of you are still on homesteading and will let us know how things worked out, what your preferred mixture is and what works. Any help would be appreciated.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

If you are at all concerned about pesticides in your food, I would strongly caution against feeding cottonseed to any food producing animals. While cotton makes up about 3% of the world's crop production, it uses approximately 25% of the world's pesticides. Traces of pesticide residues have been found in the beef and milk of cows fed cottonseed meal. 

Sprouting whole grains is a great way to increase their feed value and save money on grain! You will drastically increase the volume of that 50# bag! 

Does anyone have any data/information on how sprouting grains changes their nutritional content? 

As I've mentioned in other posts, I am just starting out with rabbits and only on a very small scale for right now. I have no experience with a larger scale rabbitry. However I do have friends who are using 5 gallon buckets with lots of small holes drilled in them to sprout whole grains for their 30 cow dairy. Perhaps this could be an option for a larger scale rabbitry?


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## Mickey328 (Oct 31, 2012)

We've transitioned ours from pellets to grains. I make a mix of 4 parts barley, 4 parts oats, 1 part BOSS and 1 part beet pulp. Along with that they get unlimited grass hay and a good handful or two of alfalfa each day, as well as fresh greens and such. They get a mineral/salt lick as well. I use the same base mix for the chickens, but I add 2 parts of cracked corn to it.

We're re-thinking the beet pulp, though...the rabbits don't eat it. Not sure if it's because of the size or if they simply don't like it. I might try smashing some of it into smaller pieces; if they still leave it, I'll just leave it out of the equation. The oats and barley from our feed mill are both rolled, but otherwise unprocessed. 

I plan on planting a fair bit of different kinds of grain this year, but since we don't have enough space to grow all their food, it'll just be for variety. Also putting in a fair bit of forage type plants...chickweed, clover, alfalfa. We'll let them have all the fresh stuff over the summer and will dry lots for use over the winter as well. Since fresh greens are harder to come by over the winter, one project we'll be tackling over the summer is a fodder growing system so the chicks and buns will have access to nice fresh green stuff all winter long.


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## bjgarlich (Nov 20, 2012)

I am trying to move my rabbits away from pellets and onto a more natural diet. Right now they get fresh greens (I am building up the amount each day), 4-6 oz pellets, and alfalfa or timothy hay (depending on if they are "working" or not). I want to start giving grains in place of the pellets and building up the hay/greens intake.

Should I mix the grains with the pellets as I transition them away from pellets? How long should I take to transition? Or change cold turkey? If I can't find barley, can I just give them more oats, or substitute wheat? 

Once they are on grains and fresh greens (grass, safe weeds, clover, etc) should I give them alfalfa hay or grass hay or a mixture?


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## arnie (Apr 26, 2012)

MaggieJ said:


> Ask them! If not perhaps you could get some by driving a little ways out into the countryside. There have to be feed stores somewhere. Try the Yellow Pages for some nearby small towns.


 when I lived in a large city there were a couple raceing pigeon clubs .and stores that caterted to there needs as far as grain mixtures .the homeing pigeon feed is a top of the line mixture with peas, wheat, safflower seeds,im sure purenia makes a expensive pigeon grain mix that tractor supply can getfor you but a local club or grain dealer may have a cheeper brand or option .also sprouting a hole grain mixture by soaking for a couple days increases its plateableity and nutrition .planting a small patch of alpalfa and harvesting it fresh will work . personaly I'm sticking with the pellits for convince . but a cousin had some rabbits that stayed loose raised litters and made it a couple years on grass hay from the barn and would hop up and eat chicken scratch with the chickens till preators got them.


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