# Feds sting Amish farmer selling raw milk locally



## freeholdfarms (Aug 10, 2007)

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/apr/28/feds-sting-amish-farmer-selling-raw-milk-locally/

A yearlong sting operation, including aliases, a 5 a.m. surprise inspection and surreptitious purchases from an Amish farm in Pennsylvania, culminated in the federal government announcing this week that it has gone to court to stop Rainbow Acres Farm from selling its contraband to willing customers in the Washington area...........more at link


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## bknthesdle (Mar 27, 2011)

Wow!  for selling milk? Crazy!


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Wonder what it cost the taxpayers to make people "safe" from drinking the milk of their own choosing??


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

Here we go again. Thank goodness our govt is taking care of us and making critical decisions:

Raw milk bad.

French fries, greasy burgers, soda pop good.

Marijuana bad.

Alchohol good.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

It just seems to me, that we've got plenty of unsolved burgleries, murders, and meth dealers to go around. Yet, they are beating up on dairy farmers? 

:runforhills:


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

Yippee... Our government at work again. Wonder what this year long sting cost us! Guess if they can't stop the drug dealers, they'll shut down the small dairy industry to 'safeguard' all of us from having to make our own intelligent decisions on what to eat or not. We all know that drinking raw milk is more dangerous to the general public than cigarrets and alcohol. Geesh!


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## pfaubush (Aug 17, 2009)

You guys and your sarchasm. Don't you get it??? Raw milk is a gateway food. It could lead to other things like raw vegetables and lean meat. :shocked:


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

Glad to see they're using my tax dollars wisely.


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## HighlandCowboy (Mar 18, 2011)

This post might belong in the "Pigs" section. I hope the revolution begins with a dairy farmer giving some FDA (Federal Destruction of Agriculture) agents what they deserve.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Is this the same amish guy that got in trouble awhile back ? We have had several small raw milk dairies stop selling milk, they have some of us running scared. Not me, I will sell it till they throw me in the slamer. Some people try and push the limit, and get in trouble when they try and go over the line. > As Allways , Marc


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

HighlandCowboy said:


> I hope the revolution begins with a dairy farmer giving some FDA (Federal Destruction of Agriculture) agents what they deserve.


What would they give them? A drink of the terrible poison raw milk? Then they can watch them flail in agony on the ground and go to prison for the torture of a federal agent.


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## Smallhomestead (Feb 25, 2011)

This is the FDA at work can't drink raw milk but they allow pink slime in or ground beef. Google pink slime your hair will curl.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Well I guess I better get out to my barn drug lab and crank out some more white stuff from my cows so I can sell it. It is really getting bad when they make you feel like your in the same catagory as a drug dealer. I know there are even alot of folks on here that think we shouldn`t sell raw milk, but I`m a firm believer that is a safe product. I asked a customer this morning how old she thought I was, she says early thirties I guess. I said thank you and then told her I was 50, she says give me some more of that milk if thats what it does for you. I love it when I do that to people, makes me feel good also. > Allways, Marc


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

I justlooked up "pink slime" oh my goodness, I never knew this, you think if I would pour some bleach in my milk it would then be safe ? > allways, Marc


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## Smallhomestead (Feb 25, 2011)

:nono::nono:If you use ammonia the FDA won't mind


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## IMContrary (Sep 22, 2004)

Break the law, pay the consequences. Don't wanna get fingered, then don't break the law. If you disagree with the law, work to get it changed.


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## copperhead46 (Jan 25, 2008)

How do we start a "grass roots" movement to allow the sale of milk, eggs and produce. When did this start? I just found out a couple of weeks ago that you can't buy fresh milk in Arkansas, I'm sickened by it all.
P.J.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

10 outbreaks of disease attributed to raw milk consumption were reported in the first half of 2010: http://www.ecoliblog.com/e-coli-wat...re-is-the-outrage-from-the-raw-milk-industry/

On a personal note, I have (or had) things set up with a cow sanctuary in West Virginia to take my girls in the event of my untimely demise. Recently, the husband half of the couple who operate the sanctuary was traveling in Europe and stricken with a mysterious illness that left him paralyzed in a hospital halfway around the globe, thousands of miles from his family. His wife flew overseas to bring him home. Here is what she posted:



> The doctors believe Balabhadra has Guillain-BarrÃ© syndrome.
> 
> "Guillain-BarrÃ© syndrome (say "ghee-YAN bah-RAY") is a problem with your nervous system. It causes muscle weakness, loss of reflexes, and numbness or tingling in your arms, legs, face, and other parts of your body.
> 
> ...


It seems a dreadful irony that a fellow who has devoted his life to the care and protection of cows should be sickened in this way.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

IMContrary said:


> Break the law, pay the consequences. Don't wanna get fingered, then don't break the law. If you disagree with the law, work to get it changed.


This mentality scares me. Blindly obey what some pinhead bureaucrat decrees! Turn in your Jewish neighbors, runaway slaves... and raw milk producers. After all, it's the law. 

I see that you claim to be contrary, yet advocate following all laws. :huh: Personally, I'll follow my common sense and let others follow theirs.


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## pfaubush (Aug 17, 2009)

Gabriel said:


> This mentality scares me. Blindly obey what some pinhead bureaucrat decrees! Turn in your Jewish neighbors, runaway slaves... and raw milk producers. After all, it's the law.
> 
> I see that you claim to be contrary, yet advocate following all laws. :huh: Personally, I'll follow my common sense and let others follow theirs.


This! I couldn't agree more!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

We have a couple generations of people that don't know about the milk-borne illnesses that exist in milk.
Many people want freedom, but when something goes wrong, expect teams of experts there to turn everything back around for maximum food safety.

Someone on here confused rew milk with fresh milk. Some attach special powers to raw milk when none exist.

Learn about raw milk. Ask your Vet what he thinks about publicly sold raw milk. Read up on campylobactor, how it is spread, what it does to people and that most rew milk sales dairies do not test for it. 

You want to feed your family raw milk, fine. You, or anybody, wants to enter the public food business, follow the rules or go to jail.

I've been in Amish wood shops, Amish bakeries, Amish dairies and Amish harness shops. These people are not clones. They are people. Some make nice wood rockers, clean cheese, sanitary milk and solid harnesses. Some are dirty, sloppy, cut corners and use inferior materials. The word Amish isn't the same as pure, old fashioned or honest.

Amish selling milk or milk products illegally isn't so different from selling hamburger out of the back of your pickup truck. USDA has rules designed to insure the public gets safe food. Follow the rules or accept the results.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Personally, I'll follow my common sense and let others follow theirs.


The problem is, "common sense" isn't going to tell you whether milk is tainted with bacteria that will sicken you. It can look, smell and taste just fine, and yet ...

That's one heck of a roll of the dice, for very dubious benefits in return, AFAIC. :shrug:


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

haypoint said:


> USDA has rules designed to insure the public gets safe food. Follow the rules or accept the results.


The USDA also pushes NAIS. While you may think that is OK, I certainly don't. Just because the USDA is a government organization doesn't make them the Almighty, but they act like they are.
I use a home pasteurizer for our milk, but I support anyone who wishes to drink raw milk. I don't believe all of the hyp pushed by some groups concerning raw milk, but if someone wants to drink raw milk , the government doesn't have a right to punish them for it.


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

willow_girl said:


> The problem is, "common sense" isn't going to tell you whether milk is tainted with bacteria that will sicken you. It can look, smell and taste just fine, and yet ...
> 
> That's one heck of a roll of the dice, for very dubious benefits in return, AFAIC. :shrug:


But people should have the right to purchase milk from a local farmer. It is your own duty to be educated about the risks and benefits.

The government allows the sale of many items that are much riskier than milk. Like cigarettes -2nd hand smoke is a direct cause of over 60,000 deaths in the United States each year, alcohol, OTC drugs, did you know that acetaminophen is now the #1 cause of liver failure in the United States?


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> The problem is, "common sense" isn't going to tell you whether milk is tainted with bacteria that will sicken you. It can look, smell and taste just fine, and yet ...
> 
> That's one heck of a roll of the dice, for very dubious benefits in return, AFAIC. :shrug:


I think you missed my point. The risk is *mine*, I'm not imposing that on anyone else. People are free to choose to skydive, or not. They can handle poisonous snakes, or not. They can eat nothing but greasy, sugary processed foods... but when a neighbor wants to buy my milk, it's somehow everyone else's business? 

I'm well aware of the dangers, and I wouldn't dare drink raw milk from the average dairy. I just moved out of Hamilton county which has a large dairy production, I went to quite a few of those farms. Frankly, they're just nasty! But at what point do we let the nanny state take over our lives and make all our health decisions for us? Just as a parent can handicap a child by never letting them make decisions and experience the consequences, so government can handicap society by doing the same thing.


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## FarmerRob (May 25, 2009)

HighlandCowboy said:


> This post might belong in the "Pigs" section. I hope the revolution begins with a dairy farmer giving some FDA (Federal Destruction of Agriculture) agents what they deserve.


That is NO way to talk about pigs. Pigs are honest and straightforward--you can tell where they stand. And they serve a useful purpose. 

And as you may know pigs, given the room, will poop away from where they eat. The Goobermint, on the other hand, poops where WE eat (or in this case drink milk of our choosing.)

Isn't it amazing how a bunch of goobermint bureaucrats always know how we should live our lives SO MUCH BETTER than we do ourselves. They must be a really special bunch. 

(Note extreme sarcasm--I actually think they all have cranial-rectal inversion.)

Wouldn't it be great if the money they wasted persecuting a farmer for NOTHING had been spent on somethng useful like protecting our southern border.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Lets just do away with all food regulation, stop fresh dating products, leave Tyson alone, don&#8217;t check the strawberries or spinach. Stop hassling the slaughterhouses and let the bathtub cheeses sell on the open market.
Then the USDA can keeps Laboratories in mothballs and teams of scientists on call. Crews of field staff on ready reserve status. Hundreds of pages of science based requirements for safe food held in a lock box, ready for the next outbreak.
Then when the food, including raw milk, makes people sick or causes death, the USDA can spring into action, respond to public outcry to fix the problem. 
Then the public will need to be sprinkled with fairy dust to forget what was wrong, so they will start buying that food again.
TV&#8217;s lies about Alar on apples drove many orchardists bankrupt. Farmers with clean strawberries and clean spinach lost their farms. A flu unrelated to swine drove the pork market down, hurting many small farmers.
It is that fickle consumer that keeps USDA on their toes. You might think most consumers want to take their chances with food, but you&#8217;d be wrong.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Although I can see the possible ramifications of selling milk that _might_ cause someone to get ill from drinking raw milk sold like this, the huge G effort that went into this, the money, the undercover bs...just scares me and sickens me. Yup our G has sunk this low. Lets' not bother the mexican drug cartels operating here buying up businesses as fronts to launder drug money or their narco terrorist goons growing pot all around where I live...nah lets pick on some Amish Farmer....jaysus. Just wrong...totally wrong.....


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

A monologue on why we need the USDA does not really address the issue of the government overstepping the boundaries of what an organization was created to do and becoming Big Brother. The USDA is paid for by our tax dollars, the government runs on our tax dollars (plus what the Chinese lends them), so they should be serving us and not dictating what we can eat and commerce between a small farmer and individuals. The USDA was set up to monitor Big Business" food production, not the smallholder, but instead seems intent of running the little guy out of business. The USDA supports genetically modified crops and grains over organically grown ones, and the use of growth hormones in cattle, so I don't think they are all that concerned about food safety. Big Business food producers have big bucks to hire lobbyists and that's what it boils down to, political expediency and a power play by the government.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

linn said:


> A monologue on why we need the USDA does not really address the issue of the government overstepping the boundaries of what an organization was created to do and becoming Big Brother. The USDA is paid for by our tax dollars, the government runs on our tax dollars (plus what the Chinese lends them), so they should be serving us and not dictating what we can eat and commerce between a small farmer and individuals. The USDA was set up to monitor Big Business" food production, not the smallholder, but instead seems intent of running the little guy out of business. The USDA supports genetically modified crops and grains over organically grown ones, and the use of growth hormones in cattle, so I don't think they are all that concerned about food safety. Big Business food producers have big bucks to hire lobbyists and that's what it boils down to, political expediency and a power play by the government.


There is so much wrong with this post that it boggles the mind.
The USDA is in charge of the organic program it does not advocate one method over another.
The USDA was not founded to monitor big ag.


> Be It Enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled. That there is hereby established at the seat of government of the United States a Department of Agriculture, the general designs and duties of which shall be to acquire and to diffuse among the people of the United States useful information on subjects connected with agriculture in the most general and comprehensive sense of that word, and to procure, propagate, and distribute among the people new and valuable seeds and plants.


The USDA is doing what the majority of the people want by enforcing rules that are in place.
If you want different rules then you need to get them in place.
you need to let go of the hate.....


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

I beg to differ. Quoting a few regulations doesn't make your statement true. Since when has the government gone by the Constitution or even their own regulations? That is laughable. It was easy for me to come up with so many links verifying what I said because it is true. Read through a few of these and then tell me how wrong my statements were. And please spare me your platitudes about hate, I sure couldn't feel any love emanating from you post. LOL

"The Hatch Act of 1887 transformed the Bureau of Agriculture, which was established in 1862 by Lincoln, into the Department of Agriculture and made the Commissioner a Secretary of Agriculture and a member of the president's cabinet. This act opened agriculture in the United States to the whims of Congress and lobbyists and was the beginning of an era of greatly expanded federal powers."
Source: http://fa-rm.org/usda-history.html 
As far as my statement "The USDA was set up to monitor Big Business" food production", I should have said the USDA is set up to promote large agribusiness. That was not the purpose of the Bureau of Agriculture, but as you can see from the above source, this all changed.

http://www.naturalnews.com/028682_USDA_corruption.html

http://greenbio.checkbiotech.org/ne...s_get_boost_over_organics_recent_usda_rulings

http://eatdrinkbetter.com/2011/02/08/usda-favors-monsanto-over-organic-industry-consumers/

http://a4cgr.wordpress.com/2011/03/24/02-613/

http://www.organicconsumers.org/Organic/mofga.cfm

http://www.omorganics.org/page.php?pageid=171&contentid=168

http://www.foodroutes.org/fwissue.jsp?item=135

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2002/04/agriculture-lobby-wins-big-in-new-farm-bill


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

People forget that we are sickened by the usda "safe" foods all the time! we should have a choice of what we eat or drink. You want fda approved milk thats great but if I want raw I shouldn't be stopped from drinking it.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

You know I read each of these posts on here, and as you are not all right, you are not all wrong either. You each make good points and some of you make some very bad points. I do believe everyone has the right to do as they feel is best for them, weather it be drinking raw milk or what have you. As some of you claim there is no health benifit from drinking raw milk, I would argue that one till the cows come home. I do agree that there are some really good clean dairy farmers and there are some really nasty ones also. And yes you can not tell by looking into a pail of milk weather or not there is anything wrong with the milk or not. But I also think if you have a small herd of cows and know your cows like you know your spouse, I think you have a pretty good idea what your cows health is like. I know some of you think that only silly, slow or uneducated people would drink raw milk, but I on the other hand think it is just the opposite. I can sell raw milk, as long as you come to my farm and fill your own container. And I have a wide range of people that buy milk from me, retired vetrinarian, several state troopers, lawyers, several chiropractors, massage therapists, engineers, train engineers, farmers, house wives, school teachers,ministers and the list goes on and on. Now I don`t know about you but they seem to be very educated people, but maybe I`m wrong, maybe they are just fools looking to disobey the government. I still think raw milk is safe on the most part, yes it can kill you, so can smoking and drinking to much, so can lettuce, and tomatoes, and eggs, and alfalfa sprouts and that list goes on and on also. And haypoint is very right that all Amish are not clean honest people, in fact they are just like their English counterparts, they are not all good people. We as American citizens have the right to do what we want, when we want, and with whom we want. So what is it that makes the government right to come down on certain people that sell raw milk, or eggs or vegtables. I think it on the most part is that certain people try and push the envelope, they start delivering milk when thay shouldn`t, or bottleing milk they shouldn`t, or what ever. I do think maybe we need a source of testing our raw milk without repercutions to whom ever is the testy. Alot of the health problems with most of the large dairies cows all stem back to care and what they are fed and or not fed. Crowded, confined animals fed gm feed and given shots of hormones to produce more milk is not good. I can certainly be sure my cows that are on the most part grass fed, non GM fed, no hormones, loose housed, can roam in the freash air and sunshine anyday they want are much healthier, in my opinion. I know I will catch a bunch of flack for this but thats ok, I can take it, I`m a big boy. But I still have that right, and so do you. (so far anyway) > Thanks Marc


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

a bunch of opinion pieces from sources that are very pro organic to start with proves little.

as for your statement "The USDA was set up to monitor Big Business" food production",
I showed you why that was false yet you try to twist out of it.
There was no hate in my post no vitriol for any particular form of food production no slanted views.
keep up the hate...


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

sammyd said:


> a bunch of opinion pieces from sources that are very pro organic to start with proves little.
> 
> as for your statement "The USDA was set up to monitor Big Business" food production",
> I showed you why that was false yet you try to twist out of it.
> ...


Now that you've gotten that out of your system, I hope you feel better. I am not going to get drawn into a back bitting contest with you. If you are looking for trouble, look somewhere else. Best wishes in your endeavors.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Your first web site, http://www.naturalnews.com/028682_USDA_corruption.html, has obviously false info in it. GMO is not allowed as organic. EU does not allow US cattle that have had the growth hormone implants.

&#8220;Siddiqui is not new to the government game. He was undersecretary in charge of the marketing and regulatory programs of the USDA`s organic labeling standards. These are the same standards that allowed genetically modified (GMO) crops, irradiated foods, and worse to be labeled as "organic." He also worked hard to convince the European Union to accept both hormone-treated beef and GMO crops.&#8217;

The next web site you listed, http://greenbio.checkbiotech.org/ne...s_get_boost_over_organics_recent_usda_rulings, is that same old argument about pollen drift. For hundreds of years, pollen from one farm drifts and effects the crops next door. So, if you are saving your open pollinated sweet corn, you don&#8217;t plant it near the neighbor&#8217;s field corn. Same thing if you don&#8217;t want GM properties in your saved seed. That argument about GM Alfalfa pollen getting into someone&#8217;s organic alfalfa seed production is so obscure that it is laughable. Very, very rare if the problem even exists

http://eatdrinkbetter.com/2011/02/08/usda-favors-monsanto-over-organic-industry-consumers/ is a web site filled with sensationalized reports. &#8220;Roundup- the perfect storm, triggers 40 diseases&#8230;&#8221; Filled with unfounded comments and ignores science based results.

The next web sitehttp://a4cgr.wordpress.com/2011/03/24/02-613/., is just a copy of the above web site. 

You are basing your argument against science based regulations of USDA and embracing the organic propaganda. This thread is about people that broke the law, put consumers at risk and eventually got charged with the violations.

USDA is not set up to regulate big business, nor is it set up to stamp out small farms. It has regulations that all people must comply with. Nothing fair about regulating modern, up to date milk processing plant and letting a small farmer market his milk without standards.

I believe there is a health benefit to drinking raw milk, just as there is a health benefit to drink pasteurized milk. There is no solid evidence that raw milk is healthier than pasteurized milk. In my heart I&#8217;d like to pretend it is better. But on the open market, there is too much risk.

&#8220;We as American citizens have the right to do what we want, when we want, and with whom we want.&#8221; This isn&#8217;t true and I doubt it ever was true. When you are supplying food for strangers, you are bound by lots of regulation.

Most of the time the USDA regulations provide clean, safe food. When there is a failure, it is national news. But when they inspect and regulate millions of pounds of food every day, one can expect that there will be some small contaminations. 

To have safe milk, you can test each batch for a dozen different diseases and a number of different bacteria levels, or you can kill the potential diseases and bacteria with heat. Rainbow Dairy was not doing either.

Linn, don't pitch your version of the facts and then get ticked off when others voice their conflicting info. That is what a discussion is, accept that or shut up.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

I think you speak out of both sides of your mouth, paleface, depending on what suits your purpose.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

I know one thing, I will have no problem with the GM alfalfa blowing pollen onto my fields. I have NO neighbors that grow hay anymore. And as far as drift from corn pollen, I worry very little from that also as I plant at least two weeks after the two neighbors that I have that border my farm. And I plant the open pollinated near the neighbor that has his ground in the CRP, plus I have pasture that is all along my North border. I do what I can to keep my crops clean, even have to call off the crop dusters when they forget they can`t spray when the wind is wrong. We also have border strips along the farm, and leave a nice row of tall trees to help catch the drift. we do what we can , and that is more than some try and do. Everyone take a breath and relax. > Thanks Marc


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

&#8220;I beg to differ. Quoting a few regulations doesn't make your statement true. Since when has the government gone by the Constitution or even their own regulations? That is laughable. It was easy for me to come up with so many links verifying what I said because it is true. Read through a few of these and then tell me how wrong my statements were. And please spare me your platitudes about hate, I sure couldn't feel any love emanating from you post. LOL.&#8221;

Your comments seem to be less discussion about the topic at hand and more about how wrong their statements were. A better way to counter statements you don&#8217;t agree with is to submit your views or data supporting your view. You are asking for a trouble when you simply tell people how wrong they are or spar with them on an emotional level like you did here.

&#8220;Now that you've gotten that out of your system, I hope you feel better. I am not going to get drawn into a back bitting contest with you. If you are looking for trouble, look somewhere else.&#8221;
Your comments are not productive and again are addressing this on an emotional level. Telling someone &#8220;if you are looking for trouble, look somewhere else&#8221; is just the kind of thing that starts fights. No one wants to hear that. 

So, you think you can accuse someone of back biting and just looking for trouble? At least I offered you a choice, get back to a discussion, something on topic that we can have a civil conversation about, otherwise I don&#8217;t want to read your insults. I doubt Sammyd enjoyed your insults any more than you liked the choice I suggested for you.
&#8220;Linn, don't pitch your version of the facts and then get ticked off when others voice their conflicting info. That is what a discussion is, accept that or shut up.&#8221;

If you&#8217;d stick to the subject, we could have a discussion. If you have nothing but insults, shut up. You have no more power to tell someone to look elsewhere than I do telling you to pick discussion or button your lip. But, you started it.

I had intended on submitting this as a private message, replying to your private message to me. However, after having your say, you have blocked me from replying privately. So, you get to read it this way. Again, your choice.

Raw milk is in the top ten HT hot topics. Right up there with GMO,NAIS and Monsanto. It creates lots of discussion and a dose of emotion. Anyone wanting to jump into such discussions had better don their helmet and cup, 'cause its bound to get rough.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Marc, I hope you don't mind me asking, but what kind of liability coverage do you (and the other producers/sellers of raw milk) carry to protect yourself and your customers in the event someone becomes ill from your milk? 

I'm curious because of what happened to Balabhadra, the fellow I talked about on page 1 who was stricken with Guillain-BarrÃ© syndrome after consuming tainted milk. He was hospitalized for about a week, then spent almost a month in a rehabilitative facility. He has been home since April 22, is receiving intensive physical therapy, and has progressed to the point where he can walk short distances with a walker and use a spoon to feed himself. I imagine he has incurred some significant medical bills already, and it's hard to say how long he will need therapy and to what extent he will recover. It is possible he will be handicapped at least to some extent for the rest of his life. 

Since his illness occurred outside the country, I don't know whether he and his family will be able to recoup any of the costs, but if a similar incident occurred her, I imagine the producer would be held liable. How do you deal with that kind of risk? (Because frankly, it would scare the heck out of me!)


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Willow girl , I do the best I can do to provide a quality product, and I have never as of yet had anyone get sick from raw milk. And if you think about it everything you do in life is a big risk, getting up in the morning and walking outside can be risky on it`s own. You can fall off a ladder, get in an auto accident, cow kick you, fall down the stairs. You are more likely to get cancer than get sick from raw milk. I try not to think about it to much. I was dealt this hand and I have to make the best of it, my milk company dropped us for being to small a dairy, so other than quit all together, we sell raw milk. We do carry a large liability insurance policy on the farm, and the insurance man said it will probly work once. Then we will more than likely stop selling milk and quit with the dairy business. I have no idea what to do with myself, I don`t want to get a job in town again, been there, done that, way to long. And agriculture around here is geared for big Ag. so raising anything on small scale is out of the question. And I`m to old to get big in anything, we have kicked around the idea of just plain , flat out retire. But I`m to young to go to the coffee shop everyday and complain about everything. Anyone have other ideas for me chime right in. > Thanks Marc


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I'd be scared to death of getting sued and losing the farm! But your mileage may vary. :shrug:


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## bigbluegrass (Jan 11, 2011)

I haven't been on here in awhile. I just had to comment that I find it very disturbing that the FDA has this level of power!:hrm: That is a federal agency coming in to "save the day". If the state or local authorities have a problem with it, then that is fine and that is something they have authority over. Any federal agency should NEVER have this level of authority unless the local government requests it. These are not elected agents. This is an agency which, in my opinion, has crossed the line. I think their "interstate" commerce loophole needs to be closed permanently.

What I find more disturbing is that some members of this board seem to think that type of action is a good thing. I don't want to get into a huge debate on liberty on here, but I would like to do a quick summary in defense of it. The problem I have with a large oversized government, is that if it is big enough to give you everything you want, it is big enough to take everything you have. This giant of a government can and will regulate everything. Everything. Of course they need a lot of tax dollars to do research and write the regulations and then enforce them. So you end up paying a whole lot of money in taxes for the federal government to tell you how to live, what to wear, what to eat, how to act or anything else. That is just wrong in my opinion. It is the reason this country is broke. We have regulated businesses to the point they can't survive. Who creates meaningful jobs in the country? Not the government. The federal government has no business in any of these things. If your local government wants to create laws that regulate milk, that is up to them and you can take that fight to the local level and have a better chance (or not) of being heard. But this is not something the federal government should ever be involved in. You can't convince me that there is not a single person in the whole USA that could not derive some benefit from raw milk, even if it was taking a bath in it or using it to water the plants. If just that one person could use raw milk, we are imposing on his/her freedoms by making it illegal in the whole USA. There is a local doctor at a very large and well known hospital who recommends raw milk to his patients who are suffering from autism and other brain development issues. Jersey milk in particular, but it has to be raw. Lets stop treading on everyones rights to supposedly save the thousands who would die from drinking it. If you think it is bad for you, don't drink it. Just because it is legal doesn't mean you have to drink it. You sure won't get sick from someone who has drank it. It isn't like anyone is going to sneek it in your lunch box or force you to drink it. Good or bad shouldn't be the question when it comes to freedom to choose.

Anyway, I will leave it alone at that. I just find it very surprising that members of this board in particular are so in favor of regulations to restrict the sale of raw milk on a federal level. It just blows my mind! Ron Paul 2012


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Just ask your Vet to explain campylobactor to you. If you trust your University Extension, ask them. There was a book about milk and meat, written in the early 1900s. Once people saw what unregulated food was, the citizens pushed for government regulation. Seems far fetched to the last few generations that have grown up with safe milk and meat.


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## Smallhomestead (Feb 25, 2011)

How about pasteurize your raw milk yourself. Double boiler at 145 degrees for 30 minutes than cool down in ice water bath


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

haypoint said:


> Just ask your Vet to explain campylobactor to you. If you trust your University Extension, ask them. There was a book about milk and meat, written in the early 1900s. Once people saw what unregulated food was, the citizens pushed for government regulation. Seems far fetched to the last few generations that have grown up with safe milk and meat.



This is what's called an appeal to fear. Fear of the consequences is not the root of this discussion, at least not to me. The question is, how much control over our lives do we turn over to the government? 

I won't belabor the issue as people tend to have their minds made up before looking at the facts.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Well Haypoint ole buddy you know my stand on this and I have known yours for some time. We will have to agree to disagree, I would rather drink MY raw milk anyday, than eat a cheesburger at a fast food place. > Thanks Marc


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

> here is a local doctor at a very large and well known hospital who recommends raw milk to his patients who are suffering from autism and other brain development issues. Jersey milk in particular, but it has to be raw.


So what? there is a doctor at a large and very well know hospital that recommends you only drink 2% milk.....
You can go to 30 different large and well known hospitals and get 30 different opinions.


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## bigbluegrass (Jan 11, 2011)

haypoint said:


> Just ask your Vet to explain campylobactor to you. If you trust your University Extension, ask them. There was a book about milk and meat, written in the early 1900s. Once people saw what unregulated food was, the citizens pushed for government regulation. Seems far fetched to the last few generations that have grown up with safe milk and meat.


Your kind of thinking is ruining this country.

As Benjamin Franklin wisely stated, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." And the truth is, you will get neither liberty nor safety.

Don't give up your freedoms so easily my friend. You can still pasturize your milk even if raw milk were legal.


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## bigbluegrass (Jan 11, 2011)

sammyd said:


> So what? there is a doctor at a large and very well know hospital that recommends you only drink 2% milk.....
> You can go to 30 different large and well known hospitals and get 30 different opinions.


no sammyd, the point is that some educated people think there are some health benefits to drinking raw milk and they outweigh the risks. A doctor seems to be well educated and would seem to understand the health risks of recommending drinking raw milk. I would imagine he knows all the possible diseases that a person could get from drinking raw milk. I would also imagine he understands the benefits and how raw milk is different from 2% or pasturized milk. So I find it interesting that he would recommend raw milk to a patient. That takes some conviction. Most doctors, even if they did hold the belief that raw milk was good for you, would not say anything.

Lets just say that there is a single person who could be helped by drinking raw milk. That is one person who could benefit from it. Wouldn't it be wrong to make it illegal. That person has the right to good health. You are taking that persons right away by restricting the use of raw milk. It is not like I am telling you that you and everyone has to drink raw milk. We aren't talking about a law that forces everyone to drink raw milk. I am just saying you can let this other person have it without causing any public health problem.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Once again it is an education problem, I take raw milk for health reasons. And I don`t want that right taken away, I also agree with bigbluegrass that we are not forcing anyone to drink raw milk. We just think we have the right to eat or drink what we want. I have a retired Vetrinarian that buys milk from me, he stated he had not been to a medical doctor in 40 years. He says they will kill ya, he also said that good pure raw milk that had e-coli put into it, the milk will actually kill the bacteria. He is a very strong proponent of drinking raw milk, I find it very interesting that so many well educated people think that drinking raw milk is a good thing. I also believe in using herbal remedies for all kinds of illnesses, and alot of people think this is hookie. But I do have the right to do what I want. I love it when you see medicines advertised on TV for differant things and then they read off the side effects of using those drugs. Most of the side effects are far worse than the illness that your taking them for. synthetic and chemical compounds that they use for making medicines are not the same anymore, and the pharmacutical companies are running the show. All for now, more to come I`m sure. > Thanks Marc


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

linn said:


> The USDA was set up to monitor Big Business" food production, not the smallholder, but instead seems intent of running the little guy out of business. The USDA supports genetically modified crops and grains over organically grown ones, and the use of growth hormones in cattle, so I don't think they are all that concerned about food safety. Big Business food producers have big bucks to hire lobbyists and that's what it boils down to, political expediency and a power play by the government.


not only that but when you buy a product like eggs or viggies from Big Ag the gov gets its cut. But when a friend, neighbor or family member buys the same from me, well they don't get a penny. With only 10 hens, how many cartons of eggs would I have to sell before I have to pay taxes on my earnings. A LOT. More then I could ever get from my hens at $2.00-$3.00 a carton. But taxable earnings is the only real way for them to get any money from me, cause I only sell from my farm, no drop off points and I'm not big enough for the farmers market, so no need for a special license that would put any money in their pockets. So shutting down a few of the bigger "small guys" is the only way for them to justify collecting a pay check each week.


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

springvalley said:


> I love it when you see medicines advertised on TV for differant things and then they read off the side effects of using those drugs. Most of the side effects are far worse than the illness that your taking them for. synthetic and chemical compounds that they use for making medicines are not the same anymore, and the pharmacutical companies are running the show. Marc


 I have to agree with you on this Marc. Life has on major side effect, death. Its gonna happen one way or another. Why spend all of yours wondering how its gonna end? It just reminds me of a conversation I used to have with my mom all the time when I used to rock climb or go bungee jumping or something she thought equally life threatening; "Who's to say Im gonna die jumping off a bridge with only a rubberband tied to my leg, I could get in a car accident on the way just as easily." Lol. 

Let go, let God.


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## scholtefamily (Feb 25, 2010)

Well, I was trying to stay out of this thread, but, where's the fun in that. Just to chime in about the well educated people that buy raw milk from me. I have a dr. that not only buys from me, but also spreads the word to countless people that come to see him. I can't tell you the # of families that buy our milk b/c they are allergic to store bought milk. One family has children who have had stomach issues all their lives. They started drinking raw milk and their guts are being restored. Also, I have 2 cancer patients that get milk from me........both are now in remission and neither of them had any kind of traditional treatments ( raw foods heal!) Hmm, then theirs the lady that had candida problems. I gave her some colostrum and she's a new person. It's a super food you know! All that being said, I definatlely wouldn't just buy raw milk from anybody. In my state you have to go to the farm and get it. There's a reason for that. You, as an intellegent human being should know where your food is coming from, how the animals are kept, what kind of facility and cleaning is being done. I went to a conventional farm down the road from me once when I ran out of milk, it wasn't pretty. The milk house was filthy and smelled bad. The farmer took my jars, which I had in the back of my van where some hay was the day before, so the jars were sterile on the inside, but probably not on the outside. He opened up his bulk tank and dipped my jars into it to fill them. My eyes about fell out of my head. When I got home, I smelled the milk and dumped it. This is a person who should not be selling raw milk and could very possibly make someone very ill. We take good care to sell a safe product. We have yet to have any complaints. 

Anyways, this post was about the gov't getting into our business. As someone else said, everything is a risk. People smoke cigarettes which are known to cause cancer among other things. Does the gov't save people from themselves and arrest them for harming themselves? NO That doesn't sound like the gov't protecting the people to me. If the gov't wants to help, they should be educating the people.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

I am sure that these articles by Doreen Hannes, a full time volunteer advocate for independent agriculture since 2005 and a well-respected leader in the national movement to halt the National Animal Identification System, now known as ADT (Animal Disease Traceability), will be considered opinion, but just in case you would like to read how she feels about the USDA and food safety, I have included these links:

http://www.truth-farmer.blogspot.com/

http://www.newswithviews.com/Hannes/doreen101.htm



I am also wondering how much government subsidies and the milk pricing system have to do with USDA involvement in policing the sale of raw milk to private customers.
http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/aib761/aib761fm.pdf


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## Kazahleenah (Nov 3, 2004)

pfaubush said:


> You guys and your sarchasm. Don't you get it??? Raw milk is a gateway food. It could lead to other things like raw vegetables and lean meat. :shocked:


:goodjob::hysterical:


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> Marc, I hope you don't mind me asking, but what kind of liability coverage do you (and the other producers/sellers of raw milk) carry to protect yourself and your customers in the event someone becomes ill from your milk?
> 
> I'm curious because of what happened to Balabhadra, the fellow I talked about on page 1 who was stricken with Guillain-BarrÃ© syndrome after consuming tainted milk. He was hospitalized for about a week, then spent almost a month in a rehabilitative facility. He has been home since April 22, is receiving intensive physical therapy, and has progressed to the point where he can walk short distances with a walker and use a spoon to feed himself. I imagine he has incurred some significant medical bills already, and it's hard to say how long he will need therapy and to what extent he will recover. It is possible he will be handicapped at least to some extent for the rest of his life.
> 
> Since his illness occurred outside the country, I don't know whether he and his family will be able to recoup any of the costs, but if a similar incident occurred her, I imagine the producer would be held liable. How do you deal with that kind of risk? (Because frankly, it would scare the heck out of me!)


Guillain-BarrÃ© syndrome is an auto-immune disease. It could be triggered by being sneezed on.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

springvalley said:


> You know I read each of these posts on here, and as you are not all right, you are not all wrong either. You each make good points and some of you make some very bad points. I do believe everyone has the right to do as they feel is best for them, weather it be drinking raw milk or what have you. As some of you claim there is no health benifit from drinking raw milk, I would argue that one till the cows come home. I do agree that there are some really good clean dairy farmers and there are some really nasty ones also. And yes you can not tell by looking into a pail of milk weather or not there is anything wrong with the milk or not. But I also think if you have a small herd of cows and know your cows like you know your spouse, I think you have a pretty good idea what your cows health is like. I know some of you think that only silly, slow or uneducated people would drink raw milk, but I on the other hand think it is just the opposite. I can sell raw milk, as long as you come to my farm and fill your own container. And I have a wide range of people that buy milk from me, retired vetrinarian, several state troopers, lawyers, several chiropractors, massage therapists, engineers, train engineers, farmers, house wives, school teachers,ministers and the list goes on and on. Now I don`t know about you but they seem to be very educated people, but maybe I`m wrong, maybe they are just fools looking to disobey the government. I still think raw milk is safe on the most part, yes it can kill you, so can smoking and drinking to much, so can lettuce, and tomatoes, and eggs, and alfalfa sprouts and that list goes on and on also. And haypoint is very right that all Amish are not clean honest people, in fact they are just like their English counterparts, they are not all good people. We as American citizens have the right to do what we want, when we want, and with whom we want. So what is it that makes the government right to come down on certain people that sell raw milk, or eggs or vegtables. I think it on the most part is that certain people try and push the envelope, they start delivering milk when thay shouldn`t, or bottleing milk they shouldn`t, or what ever. I do think maybe we need a source of testing our raw milk without repercutions to whom ever is the testy. Alot of the health problems with most of the large dairies cows all stem back to care and what they are fed and or not fed. Crowded, confined animals fed gm feed and given shots of hormones to produce more milk is not good. I can certainly be sure my cows that are on the most part grass fed, non GM fed, no hormones, loose housed, can roam in the freash air and sunshine anyday they want are much healthier, in my opinion. I know I will catch a bunch of flack for this but thats ok, I can take it, I`m a big boy. But I still have that right, and so do you. (so far anyway) > Thanks Marc


:clap:

All it comes down to is no man's judgment should be forced upon me in a matter such as food.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Guillain-BarrÃ© syndrome is an auto-immune disease. It could be triggered by being sneezed on.


It usually is preceded by a bacterial or viral infection. 

Google "Guillain-Barre+raw milk" and you will find a number of reports. Campylobacter seems to be the culprit.


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## TroutRiver (Nov 26, 2010)

I can't find any published, peer reviewed articles, but for what it's worth, I was in an undergrad biology class last year, and two students in my class designed an experiment around raw milk. They tested bacteria levels and bacteria diversity in raw milk from our school farm and pastuerized milk from the grocery store over the course of several weeks (the same samples, left in the fridge for weeks and tested every couple of days). I was not involved in the experiment so unfortunately I don't know all of the details, but they did find that at the end of the experiment, the raw milk had more diversity of beneficial bacteria and no detectable "bad" bacteria (that would make someone sick) while the pastuerized milk had very little diversity and more harmful bacteria.

In Vermont, it is legal to sell raw milk as long as it's sold ON FARM (cannot be sold off of the property where it's produced) and is labelled with a rediculous disclaimer stating that raw milk is known to kill babies and the elderly, spread disease and cause abortion. Still, at least we can sell raw milk here. 

I think that making it legal to sell raw milk ON FARM ONLY is a good compromise on this issue. I would not drink raw milk from most dairy farms around here, but there are a few that I know and trust, and I personally believe whole heartedly in the health benefits of raw milk. I think that being able to sell raw milk at stores or markets would add a degree of separation that I'm not sure would be safe. Making customers go to the farm to buy raw milk, and see it for themselves is a good way to encourage farmers to keep up with regulations and sanitation standards, and it's a good way for the customers to see what they're getting. Yes, there are some animals that appear healthy when they aren't, and you can't see everything that happens during milking and processing when you go to buy milk. But as others have stated, I personally feel much safer drinking raw milk from a farm that looks clean to me and has healthy looking animals, than I do eating a hamburger at McDonalds. That is just gross. :yuck:


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

TroutRiver said:


> I can't find any published, peer reviewed articles, but for what it's worth, I was in an undergrad biology class last year, and two students in my class designed an experiment around raw milk. They tested bacteria levels and bacteria diversity in raw milk from our school farm and pastuerized milk from the grocery store over the course of several weeks (the same samples, left in the fridge for weeks and tested every couple of days). I was not involved in the experiment so unfortunately I don't know all of the details, but they did find that at the end of the experiment, the raw milk had more diversity of beneficial bacteria and no detectable "bad" bacteria (that would make someone sick) while the pastuerized milk had very little diversity and more harmful bacteria.
> 
> In Vermont, it is legal to sell raw milk as long as it's sold ON FARM (cannot be sold off of the property where it's produced) and is labelled with a rediculous disclaimer stating that raw milk is known to kill babies and the elderly, spread disease and cause abortion. Still, at least we can sell raw milk here.
> 
> I think that making it legal to sell raw milk ON FARM ONLY is a good compromise on this issue. I would not drink raw milk from most dairy farms around here, but there are a few that I know and trust, and I personally believe whole heartedly in the health benefits of raw milk. I think that being able to sell raw milk at stores or markets would add a degree of separation that I'm not sure would be safe. Making customers go to the farm to buy raw milk, and see it for themselves is a good way to encourage farmers to keep up with regulations and sanitation standards, and it's a good way for the customers to see what they're getting. Yes, there are some animals that appear healthy when they aren't, and you can't see everything that happens during milking and processing when you go to buy milk. But as others have stated, I personally feel much safer drinking raw milk from a farm that looks clean to me and has healthy looking animals, than I do eating a hamburger at McDonalds. That is just gross. :yuck:


:nanner: Amen brother, tell it like it is :cow:


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

I haven't read the entire thread, but I have to ask, what are people going to do when the government reaches bankruptcy and there are no regulators and inspectors to protect us?

We might want to get ready.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I would love to be able to get hold of some raw milk for dh. But in Ohio it's illegal to sell it. I see "raw milk wanted" advertisements on craigslist all the time and wonder how many are placed by the feds. You really don't want to know what all contaminants are in powdered milk. I once knew a guy who used to work in a powdered milk factory. Yes it's pasturized before it's dehydrated but you can't keep rats out of storehouses. The FDA does not require rehydrated milk to be labeled as such. And rehydrated milk is not as healthy for you as real milk or raw milk. Google "reconstituted milk detection" and you'll see that reconstituted milk is not as nutritious as real milk. And yes, those same detection tests (done in China) did find a marked difference in raw and pasturized milk.

If a person wants to buy raw milk for themselves they should be allowed. If this means they have to inspect the dairy then so be it. The dairy farm that was across the road from us when I was a kid was NASTY nasty. Grandpa said he didn't see how it passed inspection. I don't care how much you cook it, poop is still poop.

ETA: link to FDA label regulations
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=101.4


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

DJ in WA said:


> I haven't read the entire thread, but I have to ask, what are people going to do when the government reaches bankruptcy and there are no regulators and inspectors to protect us?
> 
> We might want to get ready.


They may want to start eating their own HOME grown food, wow there is a novel idea. > Marc


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

It looks like to me that it is usually hirelings for the government that claim that raw milk is dangerous. Nobody forces raw milk down the throats of the unsuspecting, innocent public. Most Americans either favor the availability of raw dairy, or don't oppose it. More and more people are becoming aware of government enchroachment on what we have always considered our rights. It is my opinion that government agents order or buy raw milk with the aim of "nailing" the culprit who is selling it, as if this were a drug sting. I believe that this is just another way of bringing an errant public in line with what the government has decided is good for us. A lot of times it is very subtle, it doesn't seem to affect us, so we hardly notice what is happening. We give up a little freedom here and a little freedom there and before you know it, we don't have any freedom.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

springvalley said:


> They may want to start eating their own HOME grown food, wow there is a novel idea. > Marc


You radical! Be careful or they'll accuse you of orthorexia.


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## Kazahleenah (Nov 3, 2004)

linn said:


> It looks like to me that it is usually hirelings for the government that claim that raw milk is dangerous. Nobody forces raw milk down the throats of the unsuspecting, innocent public. Most Americans either favor the availability of raw dairy, or don't oppose it. More and more people are becoming aware of government enchroachment on what we have always considered our rights. It is my opinion that government agents order or buy raw milk with the aim of "nailing" the culprit who is selling it, as if this were a drug sting. I believe that this is just another way of bringing an errant public in line with what the government has decided is good for us. A lot of times it is very subtle, it doesn't seem to affect us, so we hardly notice what is happening. We give up a little freedom here and a little freedom there and before you know it, we don't have any freedom.


Couldn't have said it better myself!! :bow:


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> It looks like to me that it is usually hirelings for the government that claim that raw milk is dangerous.


Nope, I work on a dairy farm. My job is dependent on people buying the product we produce and that in turn is affected by their perception of its safety and wholesomeness. 

I worry that when folks hear that milk made some people sick, they won't make the distinction between raw and pasteurized, and will instead reach for a non-dairy alternative ... soy, rice, almond, etc. 

It's bad for business.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

Thank you for the calm and respectful response. Just goes to prove that people can disagree and still be civil about it. I can understand your concern, but pasteurization is not always a guarantee that milk is safe.

"Is pasteurizing milk a guarantee of safety?

No, processed foods can still become contaminated. In the early 1900âs, pasteurization was introduced to prevent people from getting food poisoning from milk. Pasteurization works by rapidly heating the milk to a certain temperature for a specific period of time to kill disease-causing germs. In contrast, homogenization is the process of passing milk under high pressure through a tiny orifice, which decreases the diameter and increases the number and surface area of the fat globules. This reduces the tendency for creaming of fat globules.

Outbreaks from pasteurized milk products (see Table 2) are very uncommon considering the large number of people who drink them. Pasteurized milk can carry all of the same germs as raw dairy products if they are allowed to get into the milk after pasteurization. In 2007, three men in Massachusetts died after drinking pasteurized milk that was contaminated with Listeria in the bottling area of the facility in which it was produced. Norovirus is the most commonly reported cause of illness from pasteurized milk products. Norovirus is only found in humans, and gets into the milk after the pasteurization process from human hands soiled with feces. It can be easily prevented by good handwashing practices and excluding ill persons from handling milk or other foods."
http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/#RawMilkFacts4


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> Nope, I work on a dairy farm. My job is dependent on people buying the product we produce and that in turn is affected by their perception of its safety and wholesomeness.
> 
> I worry that when folks hear that milk made some people sick, they won't make the distinction between raw and pasteurized, and will instead reach for a non-dairy alternative ... soy, rice, almond, etc.
> 
> It's bad for business.


That concern is understandable, but stop and consider how short the memory/attention span of the public is. All the e-coli burger that has been reported in the news the last 10 years, did it seem to hurt McDonald's, Wendy's or Burger King's business?? There are more of them than ever.

Sorry about the thread drift, but I don't think the soy/almond whatever products should ever have been allowed to be labeled "milk". It is NOT milk.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

The Mad Cow disease scare hasn't stopped beef eating Americans either, just gave the USDA an excuse for pushing NAIS.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Sorry about the thread drift, but I don't think the soy/almond whatever products should ever have been allowed to be labeled "milk". It is NOT milk.


I think we can all agree on that!!!


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## JimP (Feb 9, 2011)

@Marc from SpringValley...Perhaps a way to CYOA ,would be to have your customers sign a disclaimer to the effect of ...."I am aware of the risks of raw milk ,but I choose to take those risks." Perhaps talk to your lawyer and see if it would be a binding agreement in your state.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> Nope, I work on a dairy farm. My job is dependent on people buying the product we produce and that in turn is affected by their perception of its safety and wholesomeness.
> 
> I worry that when folks hear that milk made some people sick, they won't make the distinction between raw and pasteurized, and will instead reach for a non-dairy alternative ... soy, rice, almond, etc.
> 
> It's bad for business.


Kinda like the people who've gotten sick from pasteurized milk, eh?

And of course, there are very few people who won't make that distinction. You can be sure, in such a case, that the media will blame it on the milk being raw. 

Yet they can still sell raw canteloupe. But fruit doesn't have that stigma or preconceived idea that it is inherently dangrous. So the rare times when it makes someone sick it's seen as a fluke.


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## copperhead46 (Jan 25, 2008)

Some dairy farmers in Arkansas are getting around this problem by selling raw milk for pet food, I guess if you want to drink it yourself, thats not their problem. It just burns my a** that I can buy cigarettes, but raw milk is illegle, something is just wrong with that!!!


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I don't know if that would stand up in court copperhead. I think they say you have to have a license for producing pet food.


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

Just Google bacteria curing cancer and you can probably come to your own conclusion as to WHY they don&#8217;t want us ingesting them! JM2C 
ANY cow poo in the raw milk would be the PERFECT place to find these dandy little gems. My guess is, they work the same as the GMO version, if you take them is small amounts your whole life, then I THINK you&#8217;ll be fine&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;
Chlorinated people, WELL, they may need to see a doctor to oversee their treatment. As you all know, cancer treatment CAN kill you once the cancerous cells reache the full blown cancer stage. BUT THEN, that&#8217;s considered a HEALING process&#8230;&#8230;..RIGHT! 

I COULD be WRONG, don&#8217;t know&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.JUST MY 2 CENTS!!!


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## Karen in Alabam (Jul 21, 2010)

I put those good articles on my facebook page. Hope to gross out all my friends.

I was grossed out when I found out commercial beef are fed chicken poop and dead dogs and cats.

I cannot drink commercial milk, but I can drink raw milk. I was better with my cow that ended up dying on me, Yo's milk is different and so I do another no no and throw a raw egg or two in it when drinking it or having a bowl of cereal. I only get gassy from Yo's milk not doubled over in pain like from commercial milk. The eggs help on that gassy stuff.

Raw milk contains lysine which my husband needs because he had Shingles. I have had psoriasis on my face and have had to put ointment on it for years, since I started with the milk it went away. My husband even says my breath is better since I have been drinking the milk.

So they will pry my Yo out of my cold dead hands.


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

Yes, Karen, I ALWAYS post stuff like this on my FB page as well. Worms that cure intestinal disease, BACTERIA in the dirt that helps cure depression&#8230;&#8230;on and on and on!

My DH had Acid Reflux for years and was on prescription drugs until after I went through my pre-med degree. It gave me the confidence to experiment a little on him, LOL. He is now &#8216;purple pill&#8217; free and says he feels it&#8217;s the milk that keeps his AR under control. 

I think what most people don&#8217;t understand is, that we no longer live in the same world we once did. Grandma and Grandpa didn&#8217;t use hand sanitizers, have tightly sealed houses, filters on their furnace when they grew up, or fancy milking machines to eliminate bacteria from their bodies. Here is a good article on that; I try to use the .com articles only because they are easier for most people to read. I assure the scientific articles are out there, just go to google scholar to find them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis

The time when it use to be OK to bring in a fresh bucket of raw milk, laden with dry poo from the underbelly of the cow are gone for MOST people, our bodies (well some of us) can no longer tolerate the bacteria without our body over reacting. But then again, it could just be a healing process we are conditioned to think is a sickness so we try to stop it. 
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070905174501.htm

Our family can drink our well water that did NOT pass health inspection due to high E. coli count, but the kids from the city can NOT. THEY have to drink from our special faucet that has the chlorinated water in it. We had one girl come who we forgot to tell that too. Eeek, she got a little loose stool the next day and didn&#8217;t feel real good but she did get over it and was fine in a few days. 

NOW MY family has no problem drinking the dry poo laden milk after it has be run through the milk filter. In fact, after doing some research, I think WE ALL need a little E. coli in our diet! LOL 

Kefir, IMO is an EXCELLENT way to make sure your system is full of GOOD beneficial bacteria, so when you do get exposed to a TRUE germ it will NOT be able to proliferate and cause problems. However, that&#8217;s a whole nother story in itself! 

MY opinion is, that we NOT sell our raw milk; for fear that BIG BROTHER knows it can harm/heal the people that have not been exposed to the natural environment. I don&#8217;t think people who are trying to kill bacteria really understand what TRUE health is. People don&#8217;t understand that chlorinated water and raw milk do NOT mix, IMO. If your drinking chlorinated water then reaching for raw milk, someone SHOULD be monitoring what you are doing. AGAIN JMO! BUT, if they don&#8217;t want us selling the raw milk and we keep doing it and breaking laws, they just might come take ALL the family farm cows away and put them on USDA and FDA compliant farms and NONE of us will have access to this GOOD QUALITY LIVE WHOLSOME FOODS.


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

Guess you have to pay for the good news! LOL
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/62021/title/How_salmonella_helps_kill_cancer_cells:grumble:


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

copperhead46 said:


> Some dairy farmers in Arkansas are getting around this problem by selling raw milk for pet food, I guess if you want to drink it yourself, thats not their problem. It just burns my a** that I can buy cigarettes, but raw milk is illegle, something is just wrong with that!!!


According to this website, sales from the farm in Arkansas (and lots of other states) are legal.

http://www.ftcldf.org/raw_milk_map.htm

These folks are doing a great job. Everyone here should help them...

Their motto..........
*Defending the rights and broadening the freedoms of family farms and protecting consumer access to raw milk and nutrient dense foods.*


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Karen in Alabam said:


> I put those good articles on my facebook page. Hope to gross out all my friends.
> 
> I was grossed out when I found out commercial beef are fed chicken poop and dead dogs and cats.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the thread drift, but where did you get the idea that commercial beef are fed chicken poop and dead dogs and cats?


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

Many operators feed chicken poop even dairy cows get it in places. Don't believe the cats and dogs deal though.


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## tonyb (Jul 4, 2011)

On principle, selling raw milk should be legal. But it needs to be pathogen free and the public needs to be aware of health related risks, which is the point of the USDA/FDA regulations.


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

The government can beat up dairies after they finish the terrorists and drug dealers.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Farmer2B said:


> The government can beat up dairies after they finish the terrorists and drug dealers.


No, they want to shake down dairy farmers first because they don`t have all the fire power like the others do. It is such a shame, the small farmers always take it in the shorts. > Thanks Marc


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Our family can drink our well water that did NOT pass health inspection due to high E. coli count,


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

Yep, good olâ HD said weâd be fine, just make sure not to let the chlorinated people drink it. It has to do with our immunity! They said that we have built up immunity to it and thatâs why we have no problem drinking it.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Darn. I always thought a completely sterile environment was bliss. :shrug:


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

What again are those circular DNA thingies inside of us that create all the ATP called again? What was it scientists were thinking those things were, BACTERA!!! <GASP> 

NO WAY, couldn't be a symbiot, COULD IT BE? The MITOCHONDRIA????, this is way to crazy for me!


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Yeah, so, what's on TV tonight ?


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Boy, I'd know what to do with all that energy...... burn it in a home made milk pasteurizer. :thumb:


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

To bad your already in reality FR, no energy for you. :shrug:Guess you're just going to have to rely on those cute little mitochondrial bacteria living there inside ya to produce some for ya! LOL ROFL ound:


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Yep, good olâ HD said weâd be fine, just make sure not to let the chlorinated people drink it. It has to do with our immunity! They said that we have built up immunity to it and thatâs why we have no problem drinking it.


Umm, more power to ya, I guess ... :teehee:


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Well, you've got to appreciate the irony.....
The HD comes right out and admits that people who have been "chlorinated" have had their immune system shut down by default.
I'd think a good prep practice would be to take measures now to enhance the immune system.


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

O and FYI, FR, human chromosomes (DNA) are single stranded and horizontal. The mitochondria powerhouses inside our bodies that produce the energy for us, donât have chromosomes at all!!! THEY, have circular DNA just like bacteria. THEY, donât even exist in our genetic code! THEY are only passed along to the newborn by taxi via the motherâs cellular content, and then they reproduce THEMSELVES. HOLY CATTLE!!!! BUT, then again God did make Adam from the earth, and there proly would have been some bacteria in THAT, so it all makes sense then. SOOOOO, I HOPE your not cooking your cow pies in the milk pasteurizer MR. COMPOST!!!!!!!! Bahhhahahhahaha ound:I crack myself up â¦â¦â¦â¦poor compost, feeling the pain of the soil organisms being thrown into HELL to FIRE a milk pasteurizer, MURDER I say, just MURDER!!


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

you talk funny.


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

ME, ME, YOU think I talk funny!!!


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Well, you've got to appreciate the irony.....
> The HD comes right out and admits that people who have been "chlorinated" have had their immune system shut down by default.
> I'd think a good prep practice would be to take measures now to enhance the immune system.


And I think I'd bestir myself to fix my septic system so that it wasn't leaching into my well. Ack! 

But YMMV. :shrug:


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## SCRancher (Jan 11, 2011)

Alright I must admit I lost interest in this thread a while ago and didn't keep reading the recent discussion however the ad rag I get from John Deere called "The Furrow" has an article on Raw Milk being self served ON-FARM in Germany. 

They much like us have a raging debate about raw milk but they do allow you sell and buy it on-farm and they have a vending machine that does it.

Interesting read.


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## Pasohorsegal (Jun 14, 2011)

Raw milk , hummm, what about cantlope, spinish,lettice and a whole range of things you can get sick from, take your choice. As far as the feds getting into the milk business, they would better serve us by stoking up the borders then harassing the Amish!!


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## mozarkian (Dec 11, 2009)

I am not very politically correct, so my opinion may offend some. I should apologize in advance but am too darned stubborn to do so. 
Sooo--- If you really look at government regulations on milk or anything else, and trace it all the way, you will soon see that ALL regulation is just another form of taxation and control, it's just candy coated with an attractive (to some people who want to be taken care of) "keep you safe" ad campaign to make you feel all safe and warm. Bull hockey! Regulation is another way of taking your money, tracking and controlling you. It is high time that we get back to free markets and being responsible for yourself in ALL ways. Raw milk is in the cross hairs so often because the very types of people who own a cow and drink its milk might be the type that are a little more obstinate and harder to herd than sheeple in general.


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## BlackWillowFarm (Mar 24, 2008)

The small issue here is raw milk. The bigger issue is the right to choose what we eat without gov't intervention and the eroding loss of personal freedoms. Not to mention the perceived corruption when foods like tomatoes, cantaloupe, peanuts and hamburger continue to cause illness and death but the companies that are responsible are allowed to continue to operate under the same gov't standards as before but the small guy gets raided SWAT team style. Some elected folks in Washington think they can save us all from ourselves. 'Cause we all know if you have the gov't stamp of approval, then it's all good, right?


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Amen Carla, you tell it sister, well said. > Marc


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## birdman1 (Oct 3, 2011)

THese Blanket laws are bad for the small farmer and trying to get laws changed is hard But it seems high food prices and salmonella scares are opening peoples eyes to localy home grown foods


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## birdman1 (Oct 3, 2011)

THese Blanket laws are bad for the small farmer and trying to get laws changed is hard But it seems high food prices and salmonella scares are opening peoples eyes to localy home grown foods


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