# Foundationless frames...whats your opinion?



## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

I've been reading a lot about foundationless beekeeping and the more I read, the more I like what I hear. Advocates claim to have solved their mite problems this way and bred stronger, healthier hives, and save a ton of $ and time fussing with and replacing foundations.

The idea being that the bees natural comb size is significantly smaller than the drawn comb we buy on foundations. The bigger comb allows for unnaturally large bees that can haul more nectar...but the downside is that larger comb size encourages mites. The other point is that commercial wax is already full of chemical byproducts from anti-biotics and other agents that have been shown to weaken bees and shorten their lifespan. It makes sense to me that the natural comb size would exist for a reason. What are your thoughts?


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

I know the larger cells are mite friendly, so it would make sense that the natural cell size would be better. My concern would be problems with extraction.


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## upnorthlady (Oct 16, 2009)

We tried foundationless frames. We discovered you need to put a foundationless one in between regular frames with capped honey, otherwise the bees will build out comb way too wide. It is difficult to get these frames out, and to extract honey. By alternating frames the bees know what the "bee space" is and will build it out in such a way that you can manage your frames nicely and extract well. If you put all foundationless frames in a hive, you'll have a mess. This has been our experience with it.


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## OkieDavid (Jan 15, 2007)

My experience mirrors UpNorth's. I place bare frames between straight correctly drawn frames. They will take a couple of generations to get them down to 4.9mm but it will happen. I use all mediums so the commercial 4.9mm foundation didn't work for me.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

It has been my experince that some times even placing empty frames with a starter strip between fully drawn frames results in the drawn comb frames being drawn out even thicker. I think the drawn comb frames need to be full of honey and pollen and capped to insure the empty frames being drawn properly.

I would never use non supported frames in a radial extractor unless you can keep the speed very slow for a little longer time than most radial extractors with a motor run.

During inspections with deep frames you need to use extra care in how you hold the frames and at what temps. I have seen comb fall right out of the frame during the inspections. Mark any foundationless frames on the top bars NO WIRE.

Mite likeing large cells plays right in the small scale bee keepers hands. Use drone comb and rotate from hive to freezer every 20 days.

 Al


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

I'm thinking it would be a lot simpler to just buy small cell foundation sheets.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

The orginal posters comment on saving a ton of money led me to believe not buying foundation was the object.

 Al


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## no1cowboy (May 2, 2004)

I make my owm foundationless frames, and they work well for me


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## BjornBee (Jan 17, 2011)

First...Natural cell (Or foundationless systems) and smallcell have NOTHING to do with each other.

Bees may or may not draw smaller cell. Much will be determined upon time of year, need of the bees, altitude of your location, etc.

Forcing bees onto sheets of smallcell is no different than forcing them onto sheets of regular foundation. I have heard for years beekeepers call smallcell "natural cell". And for me that is wrong. And while we can never mirror the curves, broken patterns, and other beneficial aspects of what bees do themselves in tree cavities, going foundationless is as close as we can get to "natural" and still have manageable frames of comb.

I use many forms of foundationless comb. From Warre Hives, top bar hives, to just plain langstroth hives with foundationless frames.

Here is a bit on foundationless systems.

http://www.bjornapiaries.com/combinformation.html


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

no1cowboy said:


> I make my owm foundationless frames, and they work well for me


Nice pics Cowboy...they seemed to fill the frames nicely. What made you go 'foundationless' ? Have you used foundations in the past? What do you feel are the pros and cons?


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## no1cowboy (May 2, 2004)

Im lazy! lol I like the fact that i dont have to spend time on putting in the foundation and wireing the frames. you do have to make sure the there are being drawn stright though. I only do this with the brood frames, the foundation I use for honey is plastic.


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