# What advantage in being a US citizen?



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

As I said in another post, I have arrived at a point of considering my government at all levels to be my enemy. There are a million things but the "last straws" were some of the following-
Obama took savings from Medicare by restricting the reimbursement level to various providers. But he then took the money to actually increase Medicaid useage and in effect make it a better source of revenue to providers than Medicare. I would have put up with the risk that doctors and hospitals would chose to increase the risk of poor treatment to me if the money was used to shore up Medicare. But what happened is that I will pay a great deal more in order that others will actually have better care and pay less or nothing, having not paid the taxes into the progam in the first place.
The State of California passed a "Fire Protection Fee", my own representatives voted for it even though it is clearly a tax that needed a higher percentage of vote to be enacted. It'a a tax because I personally get no services at all for the payment of this fee- the fee props up the budget so that money can be spent elsewhere. Now that 2/3s of the people who had to pay this fee did not, and the rest are angrry, these representative now "believe" that it was an illegally passed tax. So they propose to replace it with a surcharge on my home insurance. Because they now have enough Democratic votes to do it legally after the last election. But they knew it was illegal and did it anyway without penalty. How smarmy can you get.
Any immigration bill that Congress passes will not restrict new illegal immigration and will allow another amnesty, the third one, for which additional services and benefits will be paid out without any effective demand that those who hired illegals pay a penalty or that the illegal actually will be inconvenienced. So wages will be driven down again.
The Federal Government keeps negotiating free trade treaty after free trade treaty with the same failed provisions as previously, thereby ever expanding the new, cheaper outsources for business as the last round of cheap labor countries start being more expensive.
Government debt, bail outs, Fed actions, etc have been the greatest wealth transfer mechanism ever to hit the country. Congress and the Administration have determined that they will make poor people out of formerly self-sufficient citizens, then give them handouts because they are "disadvantaged." Many of them will not see properity in their lifetimes again.
It goes on and on- they will not leave me alone and they will not do the things that will even let me keep the quality of life I once had. For the first time I assume that any government representative who wants to contact me will only do so to my disadvantage.


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## ninny (Dec 12, 2005)

If what our Government is doing is just now starting to make you mad, you're way behind a bunch of us that have been mad for a LONG time....Gonna get worse too. 


.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I'm getting closer to heading overseas. This is not the America of the generation that fought and defended liberty in WWII. I read recently that some group is trying to legalize polygamy. Unfortunately that makes sense based on where this country is now. What's after that, bestiality? The IRS is going to be upset with that when someone starts declaring their partner's litters as dependents.

We've got the best lawmakers money can buy. They get bought and sold every day. Voters like you and me don't even get a chance at sucking on the hind tit. Government agencies are out of control. The country is rapidly turning into a police state. Did I miss anything?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Where== I have read many of your post and I know you are NOT late to the party.

So, what needs to be done.

remove the problems== those in power
have media that is not owned by the problem
be willing to work
be willing to serve
Stop being pc --live with the reality that others will be offended by your actions and you will be offended by others --grow thicker skin--we are not clones and we are different from each others. 
Focas one the worst problems and resist trying failed solutions.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

To answer your question in the thread title.... I kinda like having a jury trial option in the event I am ever falsely accused of a crime. I also like the idea that I can lay my head down and take a nap without fear of hordes of foreign invaders burning my house down around me. Having the opportunity to live my life the way I choose, and earn my living by whatever means I choose. I like being able to cross state lines when and where I want. I like having the opportunities this country offers. Yeah, I know, things arent the way they used to be, but so far the good still outweighs the Obama's. Aint it nice to live in a country where we can speak about our leaders in a negative way..... without fear of being beheaded in the public square? I like being able to effect change in our government, simply by using the ballot box.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

> I'm getting closer to heading overseas.


May I ask where you want to go?

Nowhere is perfect and we have it pretty good here all told. I'm planning to file my naturalization papers this summer.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Nice to see a firm line being drawn, and both sides taking their positions, be they for an honest look at reality or a head poked as far in the sand as can be accomplished.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I also like the idea that I can lay my head down and take a nap without fear of hordes of foreign invaders burning my house down around me. Having the opportunity to live my life the way I choose, and earn my living by whatever means I choose. I like being able to effect change in our government, simply by using the ballot box.


Where I live, foreign invaders are the drug traffickers from outside the US. Yesterday a man with whose accent was not American came into the house where a woman was sleeping, pointed a gun at her head and asked for someone she didn't know. When she told him that, he took a few things including her purse and left. Theory is he got the wrong address.
Here are large grows in the parks that are run by people who are not from the US all over. 
And, although most home invasions seem to be done by Americans, there are a number each week that seem to be people looking for drugs and getting the address wrong. There was one a couple of weeks ago where it seems the jerks invaded the wrong home because their GPS gave the wrong location.
And good luck effecting change from the ballot box- it seems that incumbents are almost always re-elected. And those who want to run do so because they have an agenda which does not include anyone who doesn't agree with them. 
As for the earning a living by your chosen means- tell that to the local timber companies, fishermen, miners, farmers, etc. Now if you want to be a grant writer, run a non-profit, be a college employee, etc you probably will have less trouble. 
I used to feel that frequently some government employee would go on a power trip and cause trouble throwing his weight around but that patient resistence would win in the end. But these days I feel that the whole orientation of the people making laws has become one big power trip. And that all respect for most citizens has been lost in the fog of self-righteousness.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

some states are looking into illegal aliens serving Jury duty. Well, I guess seeing that so many Americans look for ways out of jury duty it will just be another job beneth Americans.
what a joy.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

kasilofhome said:


> some states are looking into illegal aliens serving Jury duty. Well, I guess seeing that so many Americans look for ways out of jury duty it will just be another job beneth Americans.
> what a joy.


Yeah I saw that proposed bill but I suspect that it's because there are fairly significant parts of the country that have so few citizens proportionally that they can't find enough to seat a jury.
And probably, according to defense attornies, how can a non-citizen be tried fairly by a jury of his peers unless the jury is all non-citizen too.


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## HuskyBoris (Feb 14, 2013)

kasilofhome said:


> some states are looking into illegal aliens serving Jury duty. Well, I guess seeing that so many Americans look for ways out of jury duty it will just be another job beneth Americans.
> what a joy.


LOL,,that makes me laugh ,,how can they serve on a jury seeing as the are ILLEGAL aliens,hence illegal makes them not eligible for jury duty but it would be a heck of a good way to round them up and deport them.:thumb:


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

I am only reporting the news ---ok I was UN PC in the term. This is a real bill out there. Wake up CO.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

where I want to said:


> Where I live, foreign invaders are the drug traffickers from outside the US.


 I see you live in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia... and understand your issue with graft and corruption in that state. I lived there once, years ago, and its one of the reasons I left. perhaps you should take this drug issue up with your local law enforcement agencies. I was referring to invasions by foreign governments, seeking to take over our great country itself. There is indeed something comforting about having the 101st Airborne stationed nearby in that type event. 



where I want to said:


> And good luck effecting change from the ballot box- it seems that incumbents are almost always re-elected.


Um... do the names Jimmy Carter, Gerald Ford, GH Bush ring any bells? Incumbants do not have an automatic win. Each and every election the people have the choice as to whom they elect or re elect. 



where I want to said:


> As for the earning a living by your chosen means- tell that to the local timber companies, fishermen, miners, farmers, etc.


As one of the "local farmers", among other trades, I really dont need to take this subject up with them. I have never once had the government tell me I couldnt farm, sell timber or harvest it myself and sell or use the lumber. (I have owned several farms over the years, and own two as of now) or drive nails, repair automobiles, build homes for others or myself, or peddle real estate even. I also exploit the mineral resources beneath my own land, with out any government interference. I will admit the government does get a bit fussy over some professions, alcohol sales (especially in my own county), prostitution in most states, and sales of pharmaceutical supplies can be a tad sticky most places, but overall, most folks are still allowed to go about their affairs pretty much to suit them selves as far as the federal government is concerned.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

America used to be the best place in the world by achievement. Now America is the best place by default because no other place has stepped up to fill the void yet. I dont expect I'll ever leave but if I do I think I will be a man without a country.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> To answer your question in the thread title.... I kinda like having a jury trial option in the event I am ever falsely accused of a crime. I also like the idea that I can lay my head down and take a nap without fear of hordes of foreign invaders burning my house down around me. Having the opportunity to live my life the way I choose, and earn my living by whatever means I choose. I like being able to cross state lines when and where I want. I like having the opportunities this country offers. Yeah, I know, things arent the way they used to be, but so far the good still outweighs the Obama's. Aint it nice to live in a country where we can speak about our leaders in a negative way..... without fear of being beheaded in the public square? I like being able to effect change in our government, simply by using the ballot box.


CA is close to passing a law that non-citizens can serve on juries. So that might affect your 1st thingy there...


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

kasilofhome said:


> some states are looking into illegal aliens serving Jury duty. Well, I guess seeing that so many Americans look for ways out of jury duty it will just be another job beneth Americans.
> what a joy.


Ah, ya beat me to it.
Oh, for now its just for LEGAL non-citizens, btw.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

kasilofhome said:


> some states are looking into illegal aliens serving Jury duty. Well, I guess seeing that so many Americans look for ways out of jury duty it will just be another job beneth Americans.
> what a joy.


/
Illegals? Are you sure?


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> To answer your question in the thread title.... I kinda like having a jury trial option in the event I am ever falsely accused of a crime.


*Even most third world countries have a trial by jury. You might have missed the new NDAA provisions that have effectively ended habeus corpus in America. This takes our justice system below that of even Malaysia.*



Yvonne's hubby said:


> I also like the idea that I can lay my head down and take a nap without fear of hordes of foreign invaders burning my house down around me.


*Really? Guess you haven't read the news lately*




Yvonne's hubby said:


> Having the opportunity to live my life the way I choose, and earn my living by whatever means I choose.


*Do you farm? Can you sell raw milk? Can you butcher for resale?*




Yvonne's hubby said:


> Aint it nice to live in a country where we can speak about our leaders in a negative way..... without fear of being beheaded in the public square? I like being able to effect change in our government, simply by using the ballot box.


No you'll just have your internet posts, emails, purchases and phone calls monitored. You'll be placed on a "list", but they won't do anything with it . Don't worry its all for your own protection. After they take away your guns you'll be safe.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Darntootin said:


> *Even most third world countries have a trial by jury. You might have missed the new NDAA provisions that have effectively ended habeus corpus in America. This takes our justice system below that of even Malaysia.*


The NDAA provisions seem to be no different than we have always had in the past regarding habeus corpus. Article one, section 9 US Constitution: "The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion *the public safety may require it.*"

(bolding mine)




Darntootin said:


> *Really? Guess you haven't read the news lately*


 I do try to keep up, but if you have a link to something I missed.... by all means.. please educate me. 




Darntootin said:


> *Do you farm? Can you sell raw milk? Can you butcher for resale?*


Yes, yes, and yes, although I do not opt to sell raw milk or butcher for resale, but there are those who do here in my area. 





Darntootin said:


> No you'll just have your internet posts, emails, purchases and phone calls monitored. You'll be placed on a "list", but they won't do anything with it . Don't worry its all for your own protection. After they take away your guns you'll be safe.


I am not so vain as to believe anyone is going to be overly concerned with my emails or internet posts. As to my safety after they take away my guns???? Thats just not an issue... dead is about as safe as one gets.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Actualy being a citizen has become a detrament. Ileagels get so much stuff for "free" and no questions asked. I think maybe I'll do an experiamte(my spelling issue will become a plus)come late June when I'm super tanned, tho I have blond hair, see if and what I can apply for.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

7thswan said:


> Actualy being a citizen has become a detrament. Ileagels get so much stuff for "free" and no questions asked. I think maybe I'll do an experiamte(my spelling issue will become a plus)come late June when I'm super tanned, tho I have blond hair, see if and what I can apply for.


I'd be interested to hear how that goes. I think you might be surprised by how little you would get.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

The difference between last week and yesterday when I posted this thread was that last week I had some faith that the US would find it's way through and, for reason's I'm not fully aware, this week I don't.
It's not the politicians that have me down- it's the public acceptance that the things that several generations fought for no longer have value. That value resides in being given things rather than the freedom to earn them.


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## HuskyBoris (Feb 14, 2013)

even with all of it's faults there is still no other place I want to live,although sometimes it doesn't seem like it we still have so much more freedom than most.
the problem seems to be less oppurtunity,our parents and grand parents survived the Great Depression and I'm sure we will all survive this but hey,, who knows,,I'm a pessimistic


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. &#8212; That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, &#8212; That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I do try to keep up, but if you have a link to something I missed.... by all means.. please educate me.


You can look them up individually, but to name a few.....

Robert Krenz.

Brian Terry.

Kathleen Byham.

Joshua Wilkerson.

Chere Osmanhodzic.

The hundreds (if not thousands) of victims of illegal immigrant (foreign invaders don't necessarily wear uniforms) drunk drivers.


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

How about a bomb that just killed how many people?


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

MJsLady- thank you. Uplifting words for those who have let despair get the better of them. A good reminder.


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## I_don't_know (Sep 28, 2012)

HuskyBoris said:


> LOL,,that makes me laugh ,,how can they serve on a jury seeing as the are ILLEGAL aliens,hence illegal makes them not eligible for jury duty but it would be a heck of a good way to round them up and deport them.:thumb:


How can they get free medical services, health care, free housing and jobs when they are ILLEGAL aliens??

You are trying to use logic... that is not allowed with any government!!:nono:


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

To the OP: What advantage in being a US citizen?

You can save a ton on airfare. You no longer have to fly to Pakistan to be killed by a drone.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Txsteader said:


> You can look them up individually, but to name a few.....
> 
> Robert Krenz.
> 
> ...


Ok, you seem to be hung up on illegal immigrants committing crimes here in the US. Those are all "civilians", not invading armies sanctioned by foreign governments, which is what I was referring to. Fer what its worth, we have a lot of crimes being committed by fourth and tenth generation American citizens too. This should fall under the heading of local law enforcement. If you have some plan that would stop violent crime entirely in our fine country.... I am all ears.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, you seem to be hung up on illegal immigrants committing crimes here in the US. Those are all "civilians", not invading armies sanctioned by foreign governments, which is what I was referring to. Fer what its worth, we have a lot of crimes being committed by fourth and tenth generation American citizens too. This should fall under the heading of local law enforcement. If you have some plan that would stop violent crime entirely in our fine country.... I am all ears.


It's not reasonable to say that because crimes occur that are committed by citizens that crimes committed by immigrants should be ignored or lumped into the same catagory. 
Having travelled to other countries, I have seen how badly people from the US can behave once they are outside of the usual social constraints of home. People do things they would never do if Granny was watching or they misintrepret what is acceptible in another culture. Non-US people are just as bad or worse as they are not constantly told they are wrong.
Even that would be enough to be more careful about immigration but with the US's freewheeling, it's-all-about-me drug culture creating a demand, the flood of money attracts lots of pretty ugly people from elsewhere- people who have even less consideration of the locals who they consider stupid marks existing only as sources of fast riches.
And plenty of it spills out of the druggie world and into everyone's life.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

where I want to said:


> Yeah I saw that proposed bill but I suspect that it's because there are fairly significant parts of the country that have so few citizens proportionally that they can't find enough to seat a jury.
> And probably, according to defense attornies, how can a non-citizen be tried fairly by a jury of his peers unless the jury is all non-citizen too.


Any community can't find 12 people?

The truth is Americans - EVERYWHERE, blow off jury duty - big time, because it usually ends up being, both a waste of time and money, since many take off unpaid work, for the whopping $15 per day juror pay.
It's a waste of time because nearly everyone, brings their personal biases, into the jury room, tainting any impartial judgement. The rest of the jury wastes their convincing jurors to at least be objective - usually without success.

The guilty often walk or get much reduced sentences.

Jury duty is now equated with picking strawberries and cleaning toilets. Americans are no longer interested, in these tasks.

"Dupri recently served a three-day jail sentence in Fayetteville, Georgia for missing jury duty in March 1999. With as much as 80 percent of the population shirking jury duty in some counties, more courts are starting to crack down"

http://www.legalzoom.com/everyday-law/courtroom/jury-dodgers-what-really-happens


.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, you seem to be hung up on illegal immigrants committing crimes here in the US. Those are all "civilians", not invading armies sanctioned by foreign governments, which is what I was referring to. Fer what its worth, we have a lot of crimes being committed by fourth and tenth generation American citizens too. This should fall under the heading of local law enforcement. If you have some plan that would stop violent crime entirely in our fine country.... I am all ears.


I know that you were referring to invading armies which is why I made the comment about not all foreign invaders wearing uniforms. But they are foreign invaders nonetheless, if only based on their sheer numbers. 

You might have a slightly different perspective, in terms of your safety, if you lived closer to the Mexican border.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

plowjockey said:


> Any community can't find 12 people?
> 
> 
> .


There are places in southern California where I suspect it would be very difficult to find 12 legally admitted jurors much less citizens. A trip to some of thes places would be educational.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

where I want to said:


> There are places in southern California where I suspect it would be very difficult to find 12 legally admitted jurors much less citizens. A trip to some of thes places would be educational.


I lived in Orange County for 4 years and served on a jury there. It would not be difficult finding "admitted" jurors. 

They will just find some way to get out of serving, as they do, everywhere else.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

What is strange - I've never been called for jury duty. I think it would be interesting.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> If you have some plan that would stop violent crime entirely in our fine country.... I am all ears.


If you are serious, and not just being rhetorical.....

I offer the common law.

Revert back to the free and uncompromised jury.
Let the jury decide the facts of the case, and the law, and let the jury make a determination as to the appropriate sentence.

Death or a lifetime of servitude for a capitol offense would make for some drastic and immediate changes in the attitudes of criminals who have learned how toothless is the STATE's current notion of "justice".

BUT...,one of the perks that comes with the compromised status of "US citizen" is what is referred to in law as "limited liability".

American nationals who abstain from accepting US citizenship have no such gentle legal handling, and are dealt with far more severely if they are convicted of a _mala in se_ crime.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Only a US person is a peer to me. One of the main and forgotten issue in history is that persons in America during Colony times had courts on this soil. In fact John Adams --defending the British soilder in the colony because he wanted justice. John was able to separate the knowledge that many colonist were mistreated by the British soilders and by the repressive control and taxation of the King George. Oh, Adam took heat--called and viewed during the trial as a tradior to the Colonist. In that case the British were sort set up --there was a mix up and the intent of the British was not the result of the day but that Colonist action were the true cause of the insident.

I mention this in this thread because not we get into Jury Nullification and the logic behind a jury of peers is a BIG deal. 

See. Now some people reading this just might be learning that for the first time about the beginning of the courts system on this soil. The crown would charge colonist with charges --and they were heard on this soil and offen times even if the colonist was guilty as heck the courts on this soil set him free. In part to thumb their finger at the crowm and in many cases it was know that the jurist would have acted the same as the person on trial due to the law set by the crown were over burdening. 

Result was that the crown then started to remove the colonist from this soil --kidnapping in many cases--and held court in the court on the soil of the crown.


When it came to writing the founding doc's this was fresh and in the minds of the colonist. It was so important to the founding fathers view on reacting and maintaining freedom was the JURY BOX. --A Jury of PEERS. Notice now that our courts of today for which we believe is how it was set up to be is so different from what was the idea. Jury of peers were to be person who knew the parties. The reason knowing was deemed important was that the charactor, siduation, and the charges of the law were to be judged. NOT just was the law broken. The further you move away from the founding doc's the greater the change in our governmental system.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Good points, Kasil.

American law was set up to give every benefit of the doubt, and to err on the side of forgiveness/innocence, rather than the current tendency to fill the prisons with all the bodies made available........

But, the opposite is true, as well.

If a known malignant committed one too many capitol offenses, his "peers" had the power to neutralize his clear and present malignancy forever.

Too harsh and real a concept for this nation of wet noodles, today.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

charactor is important. Today we value social connections, bank accounts and the number of votes we can bring to the table.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

> Revert back to the free and uncompromised jury.
> Let the jury decide the facts of the case, and the law, and let the jury make a determination as to the appropriate sentence.
> 
> Death or a lifetime of servitude for a capitol offense would make for some drastic and immediate changes in the attitudes of criminals who have learned how toothless is the STATE's current notion of "justice".


Hmm.

Even when they they try not to, humans, will take their personal biases, along with them, into the jury room. Seen it happen. Even had some myself, that I forcefully had to put aside.

Capital punishment and "hard time" have been around - and used, for many many years, yet the cell blocks and death rows, always had plenty of "customers". Is it even a deterrent.?


Gang bangers are not afraid of prison and they are not afraid to die, or if they are, they will do it Anyway.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Ah----------think have you heard --ever about a JUDGE ruling based on a prior court pressident. Pressident ruling came out of the judicial schools of higher ed. This is just one of many changes which has removed the jurier from impacting as intended in the court. It also impower the Judges and the burercatic court system. Lawyers went for this as it gave them more power and static.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Tiempo said:


> I'd be interested to hear how that goes. I think you might be surprised by how little you would get.


 Ya, I'd have to Lie, suck up, loose all my dignity.....you're probably right, I'm a looser.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

plowjockey said:


> I lived in Orange County for 4 years and served on a jury there. It would not be difficult finding "admitted" jurors.
> 
> They will just find some way to get out of serving, as they do, everywhere else.


Try Chula Vista.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

AngieM2 said:


> What is strange - I've never been called for jury duty. I think it would be interesting.


That's what I thought during the time I was not called for over thirty years. Took one trial to show me otherwise. I'm sure there must be interesting cases but the two I've actually done have been like listening to a soap opera starring non-too-bright people and directed by lawyers fully intent on not letting you have as much information as they can hold back. Then will luck you get to be locked in a room for days with a considerable mix of ideas while you try to figure out the correct verdict with only information that has huge and obvious holes in it.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

plowjockey said:


> Hmm.
> 
> 
> Capital punishment and "hard time" have been around - and used, for many many years, yet the cell blocks and death rows, always had plenty of "customers". Is it even a deterrent.?


You can have no idea how many ordinary people pull themselves back from a horrible decsision by picturing themselves on death row.

You only get data on those who proceed anyway.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

where I want to said:


> You can have no idea how many ordinary people pull themselves back from a horrible decsision by picturing themselves on death row.
> 
> You only get data on those who proceed anyway.


 I don't know about that... most people refrain from committing crimes because they have a sense of morality, its not 'fear of punishment' that deters people. Sociopaths, on the other hand, lack that sense, from what I have seen.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

greg273 said:


> I don't know about that... most people refrain from committing crimes because they have a sense of morality, its not 'fear of punishment' that deters people. Sociopaths, on the other hand, lack that sense, from what I have seen.


 
If only the majority of the impowered (voted in by a minority of the total or reg. voters due often to APATHY or a disconnect of the importance of the freedom to select the charactor of our leaders) had a fear of punishment that deters people. Once you remove yourself from the results of your actions do you care if your actions are moral?


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## Chuck (Oct 27, 2003)

If you are thinking of leaving, you are already behind the power curve. Over a million Americans are planning to expatriate this year, according to some estimates. Millions more have already left. We are mostly high-income earners, and are being replaced by ward-of-the-state immigrants. 

Better get moving.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

The government may be my enemy- but that does not mean I will surrender my country without a fight.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

greg273 said:


> I don't know about that... most people refrain from committing crimes because they have a sense of morality, its not 'fear of punishment' that deters people. Sociopaths, on the other hand, lack that sense, from what I have seen.


I wonder- morality is so variable. In some places hitting your wife is perfectly acceptable- no one will haul you off to jail if you do it. Honor killings are in the news in this country- you know they are frequent in the originating country. 
Laws change the morality of many things that were once acceptable and the way people's attention to the change in morality is achieved is through penalties. 
No- I've changed my mind- I am totally sure that much "innate morality" is an illusion.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Tiempo said:


> I'd be interested to hear how that goes. I think you might be surprised by how little you would get.


Just heard, the Terrorist bomber faimly got over 100,000 $ in our tax dollar "freebies".


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

where I want to said:


> You can have no idea how many ordinary people pull themselves back from a horrible decsision by picturing themselves on death row.
> 
> You only get data on those who proceed anyway.


So, when that gun is aimed and ready, finger on the trigger, 15 years, verses a trip, to the electric chair, becomes part of the decision-making process?

I don't think so.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Chuck said:


> If you are thinking of leaving, you are already behind the power curve. Over a million Americans are planning to expatriate this year, according to some estimates. Millions more have already left. We are mostly high-income earners, and are being replaced by ward-of-the-state immigrants.
> 
> Better get moving.


Not all of us are 'wards of the state'.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Chuck said:


> If you are thinking of leaving, you are already behind the power curve. Over a million Americans are planning to expatriate this year, according to some estimates. Millions more have already left. We are mostly high-income earners, and are being replaced by ward-of-the-state immigrants.
> 
> Better get moving.


Those that are leaving, are nearly as selfish, as those too lazy to work, IMO.

If they have money, one of the major reasons they do, if because of the opportunities afforded to them by MASSIVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING, over the last 75 years.

GI bills. Farm bills. War spending. Space program. Huge public works projects. Public education. Reagan defense buildup. Bush stimulus. New Deal.

These programs (and thousands other) came at huge taxpayer costs, but established economic situations, where Americans had the income to live a good life, plus save for that "rainy day".

Now that the party is over, they want to take their money and run.

Nice, certainly highlight the American spirit.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

7thswan said:


> Just heard, the Terrorist bomber faimly got over 100,000 $ in our tax dollar "freebies".


Ok, I looked that up.

A little perspective, they are saying that's over a 10 year period and we are not sure how many people they are including. To err on the conservative side, lets say 7 people..the parents, 4 kids (none of them illegal aliens btw) and Tamerlan's wife (an American citizen)

That would average out to $29.70 per week each, less when you include child benefits for Tamerlan's daughter (an American citizen) for 2 years, and less if they are lumping in other family members.

Of course it's not ideal and it would be better if they were supporting themselves fully, but it's hardly living high on the hog off of the system either.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Tiempo said:


> Ok, I looked that up.
> 
> A little perspective, they are saying that's over a 10 year period and we are not sure how many people they are including. To err on the conservative side, lets say 7 people..the parents, 4 kids (none of them illegal aliens btw) and Tamerlan's wife (an American citizen)
> 
> ...


 Many shouldn't recive a dime. Here's the story for others.
http://bostonherald.com/news_opinio.../04/tsarnaev_family_received_100g_in_benefits


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

plowjockey said:


> So, when that gun is aimed and ready, finger on the trigger, 15 years, verses a trip, to the electric chair, becomes part of the decision-making process?
> 
> I don't think so.


And all the years of life that leads to a different choice to begin with are not relevant? All the lessons about what lines can't be crossed effects nothing? 
Eventually a person who is texting while driving will kill someone and be charged with homicide. That is the point where most morons, who think that their little self-involved choice is most important, will learn otherwise and the problem will be reduced. Til then, intrinsic morality has done little to correct those people. 
The law is a 2x4 applied to the heads of the selfish.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Tiempo said:


> Of course it's not ideal and it would be better if they were supporting themselves fully, but it's hardly living high on the hog off of the system either.



The real issue is that people who have to work hard to support themselves have a whole lot less time to feel aggrieved about not having everything the minute they step off the plane. They feel like they have some control over their lives. They suit their actions to achieve prosperity and value it. 
People who rely on welfare or are taught to rely on welfare are vested in believing that they are being deprived by others- after all the very government has told them that they are due something that they haven't earned. It breeds resentment that does not lead to actions where they earn more- only demands to be given more from the same government which can never be enough.

And, at the basic level, it allows people who can or won't succeed to stay here to get angier rather than go back.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

where I want to said:


> The real issue is that people who have to work hard to support themselves have a whole lot less time to feel aggrieved about not having everything the minute they step off the plane. They feel like they have some control over their lives. They suit their actions to achieve prosperity and value it.
> People who rely on welfare or are taught to rely on welfare are vested in believing that they are being deprived by others- after all the very government has told them that they are due something that they haven't earned. It breeds resentment that does not lead to actions where they earn more- only demands to be given more from the same government which can never be enough.
> 
> And, at the basic level, it allows people who can or won't succeed to stay here to get angier rather than go back.


Yes, I understand that, but thirty bucks a week is not going to support anyone's couch lifestyle.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I strongly suggest, as per the OP's choice of thread title, and the hands-over-my-eyes approach of many dissenting posters, that you all procure a copy of the full text of the "Trading With the Enemy" Act of Congress.

Then do the same with "The Buck Act".

That would shed more light, and perhaps open more minds to the truth, than any amount of otherwise sincere debate that we might engage.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Tiempo said:


> Yes, I understand that, but thirty bucks a week is not going to support anyone's couch lifestyle.


Well- I think that is not an argument to make because your figures were assumptions about where, when and how. In truth anyway, I don't think as lot of unearned benefits are called "welfare" even if that is what they really are. 
What if the assumption was that they received supporting income from welfare at a point they would have chosen to return home as they were not being successful. Both the family and this country might have thought it was a good idea rather than let them beat themselves against some vision of life they were not equiped or even really desirious of working to achieve. 

I can remember that people who worked in the SSI program used to joke about all people comng off the poat know three words of English- "S-S-I."


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

plowjockey said:


> Those that are leaving, are nearly as selfish, as those too lazy to work, IMO.
> 
> If they have money, one of the major reasons they do, if because of the opportunities afforded to them by MASSIVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING, over the last 75 years.
> 
> ...


When peoples eyes turn green there are problems. Life not equal --see we are not yet simple clones but rather here together at the same time with different skills, IQ's, and ablities. if every puzzle piece was a simple square and the same solid color each piece would always have the same value--which would be little value.

Yes, some people have money in greater amounts than others. What I see is sad is always viewing that money solves every problem --that people with money have it easy. Leaving a country one loves ---any person who vol. to risk life and limb over and over again is not doing it for the money it is for honor, valor and love enought to sacrifiece everything for others--(not quite the webster view on what selfishness is). It is hard to have honor and valor and green eyes at the same time.

Problems are solved in many stages and each stage alone is not the answer. There is a time for everything. Think why would those who have risked so much to care and protect us leave. Loving parents boot children out of homes that they grew up in to force them to personally learn the need to be responcable for themself. Learning to be self responcable also allows self centered catered, lazy, entittled children to appreciate what has been done by others solely for the benifit of the children. It is a wake up call --Their will be people who will only focas on the hardship of living within the entitlement that they provide for themself and view it as a punishment but others will learn the satifaction in earning personal ribbons of succeeding up the ladder to successs.

Miss you Chuck and Thanks for all. Thank you for risking, thank you for caring, and most important to many is your leadership in living your faith.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

kasilofhome said:


> Problems are solved in many stages and each stage alone is not the answer. There is a time for everything. Think why would those who have risked so much to care and protect us leave. Loving parents boot children out of homes that they grew up in to force them to personally learn the need to be responcable for themself. Learning to be self responcable also allows self centered catered, lazy, entittled children to appreciate what has been done by others solely for the benifit of the children. It is a wake up call --Their will be people who will only focas on the hardship of living within the entitlement that they provide for themself and view it as a punishment but others will learn the satifaction in earning personal ribbons of succeeding up the ladder to successs.


So, those bailing out of a mess - they helped create and taking their money with them, are doing so, for the good of the Country?

My LOL for the day.

These millions, probably won't want to give up their U.S. citizenship, in case they ever want to come back for more.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

In 1868, Congress declared that "the right of expatriation is a natural and inherent right of all people, *indispensable to the enjoyment of the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.*" Act of July 27, 1868, ch. 249, 15 Stat. 223, 223 (1868); _see also _8 U.S.C. Â§ 1481 note (2000) (quoting R.S. Â§ 1999) (same). That declaration further stated that "*any declaration, instruction, opinion, order, or decision of any officers of this government which denies, restricts, impairs, or questions the right of expatriation, is hereby declared inconsistent with the fundamental principles of this government*."

PJ, why don't you get down off that imaginary high horse of yours, and stand aside while people of conscience exercise their natural rights, after their own fashion, for their own reasons, to face the consequences of all of their decisions in some semblance of peace.

The day may actually come, when you might hope for the same consideration.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Strenght, energy, and money is best not to be handed over knowling to those who will widdow it away on golf and other amusement while tossing crumbs to those that need. Timing is everything. If the populas is so apathic as to vote for the pretty face, a name heard the most , then maybe the time is not now.

No matter how much water or mulch I have I spare it from the weeds and save it for the garden ---even if I have to wait to seen green.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Forerunner said:


> In 1868, Congress declared that "the right of expatriation is a natural and inherent right of all people, *indispensable to the enjoyment of the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.*" Act of July 27, 1868, ch. 249, 15 Stat. 223, 223 (1868); _see also _8 U.S.C. Â§ 1481 note (2000) (quoting R.S. Â§ 1999) (same). That declaration further stated that "*any declaration, instruction, opinion, order, or decision of any officers of this government which denies, restricts, impairs, or questions the right of expatriation, is hereby declared inconsistent with the fundamental principles of this government*."
> 
> PJ, why don't you get down off that imaginary high horse of yours, and stand aside while people of conscience exercise their natural rights, after their own fashion, for their own reasons, to face the consequences of all of their decisions in some semblance of peace.
> 
> The day may actually come, when you might hope for the same consideration.


You're probably right.

It's natural progression, for those to get what they want and leave others, _holding the bag_.

I'll learn.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Plow--What if they are RETREATING not abandoning this courntry?


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

kasilofhome said:


> Plow--What if they are RETREATING not abandoning this courntry?


Could you explain?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

The drug of those in power is money. Take away the drug and it weakens them. An opponent fully charged takes greater resources to face vs a weaken party. 

How often is the action of a block of resources used to controll apolitical group in power. Food blockages, oil embargos, this is no different than encircling a group in the Winter time to wear them down.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

7thswan said:


> Actualy being a citizen has become a detrament. Ileagels get so much stuff for "free" and no questions asked. I think maybe I'll do an experiamte(my spelling issue will become a plus)come late June when I'm super tanned, tho I have blond hair, see if and what I can apply for.


Long ago I read that someone changed their surname to a Hispanic name so they would be considered a minority. I don't know if that's still the case.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

kasilofhome said:


> Plow--What if they are RETREATING not abandoning this courntry?


Doesn't matter.

They won't be coming back to America, circa 1776, where there is a new, energetic people,, ready to "go for it".

Ain't happening. We all know it.. When it's over, its over for good. Everybody is needed to figure this out.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

where I want to said:


> And all the years of life that leads to a different choice to begin with are not relevant? All the lessons about what lines can't be crossed effects nothing?
> Eventually a person who is texting while driving will kill someone and be charged with homicide. That is the point where most morons, who think that their little self-involved choice is most important, will learn otherwise and the problem will be reduced. Til then, intrinsic morality has done little to correct those people.
> *The law is a 2x4 applied to the heads of the selfish*.


They will be a making a lot of trips to Menards, for more wood.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

kasilofhome said:


> The drug of those in power is money. Take away the drug and it weakens them. An opponent fully charged takes greater resources to face vs a weaken party.
> 
> How often is the action of a block of resources used to controll apolitical group in power. Food blockages, oil embargos, this is no different than encircling a group in the Winter time to wear them down.



Your wrong the drug of power is POWER, money is only one road to power.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Chuck said:


> If you are thinking of leaving, you are already behind the power curve. Over a million Americans are planning to expatriate this year, according to some estimates. Millions more have already left. We are mostly high-income earners, and are being replaced by ward-of-the-state immigrants.
> 
> Better get moving.


Do you mind sharing where you moved to and how it is better? I probably wont leave but it would be nice to have ideas of other options.


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## HuskyBoris (Feb 14, 2013)

probably China,they are only allowed to tell everyone how great it is to live there,the Chinese government makes sure of it too.


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