# Can I cross Pygmys/Nubians?



## Merrique (Jun 2, 2005)

Hello,

I am new to the HT board and I have to say it is a great place! So hello everyone! I live in SE Ohio on a small farm (15 acres) and have raised pygmy goats for the past five years. I would like to add some Nubians to my herd to learn how to milk them, but I have kept a few pygmy does I am fond of. So, if I get a Nubian buck will my little does be able to have the larger babies successfully? I have seen my does have some big babies, but not sure about Nubian-sized, thanks!

Aimee


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## debitaber (Jun 6, 2003)

you can breed a pygmy buck to a nubioan doe, but you can't breed a nubian buck to a pygmy doe, the babies would be to big and kill your doe.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

And will the pygmy buck be needing a hill or a step-ladder to heighten his chances??? 

I have a pygmy/nubian buckling that I had hoped would grow enough but it is not looking good. He is a sweet little bugger though.....and a busy forager, freindly and talkative! We call him Cracker Jack.


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## Meg Z (Jun 8, 2004)

Look up Kinder goats. The breed originated with crossing Nubians and Pygmys. However, I think a Pygmy doe would be hard pressed to deliver a half Nubian kid.

Meg


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## trixiwick (Jun 9, 2004)

> And will the pygmy buck be needing a hill or a step-ladder to heighten his chances???


I don't know for sure, but one of our does is a pygmy cross with, obviously, some dairy blood and she is fairly tall. When we chose from between four pygmy bucks to breed her, the owner of the bucks said, "Don't worry about the height difference - they'll manage." And they did, even though my doe was quite a bit taller than any of the boys.

Not as big as the difference between a Pygmy and a Nubian, though!


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

Depends on the size of your pygmy does.
We had a pygmy doe in our herd. She was bred to a LaMancha buck twice, then a dairy/pygmy cross buck a couple of times and this alst time to Saanen/Boer cross buck. She usually had multiples and it was fairly easy on her. This last time was a huge single buck and we did lose ehr to a slow ifnection when he was two months old at 8 years old. That was our fault though. The only other time she had singles was her first and she was a La Mancha kid. No problems there.

We're also in SE Ohio.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

all full blood pygmies should not be bred to a breed of goat (or any goat) very much larger than them. unless they are unusually large crosses, you can prolly never ever breed them to a nubian without them dying at birth. the babies would be absolutely huge. (try breeding a male standard poodle to a female mini poodle!!!!) if you want pygmy/nubian crosses, go for the male pygmy to the female nubians. if you have or are getting a milkstand, then that should hold the female in heat and you could probably add height for the back to help the little guy, but most are pasture bred despite the difference in height. 
i kno there may be some who have had good experiences of breeding male nubians to female pygmies, but you shoud prollly not risk it, especially if youre as attached as u say u are to the does.


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## debitaber (Jun 6, 2003)

you will be amazed. the small bucks will get the job done with no problem. it is amazing , they do get the larger does bred. I have a small pygmy buck, and I do have to watch him, as he will breed the big full size nubian does I have.


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

The size of the mother does have quite a bit of effect on the size of the kids at birth. 

I forgot to mention that Velvet (the pygmy) settled to a Nubian buck one of those years and produced triplet doelings.

If you have the really small pygmies, it isn't something you should purposely do though. Velvet was a larger pygmy doe and that was why it was fine with her.

Her two daughters out of the LaMancha buck raise wonderful kids.


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## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

My nigerian buck bred 4 full sized alpines and a pygmy just fine! (no step ladder envolved) and it was his first shot, he was only 7 months old!!!! Please dont breed that big buck to the little does =(


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## Natureschild (Oct 15, 2003)

Shouldnt the mothers body determine the size of the in-uterus baby?
Most animals I know (ok well horses and humans lol) wont grow a baby larger than they can handle. 

You can breed a large horse to a pony and the foal would come out a normal pony sixe, THEN grow to whichever height its genens intend it to be.


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## Daniel De La Cruz (May 15, 2017)

Me and my dad had 2 pygmy does, we decided to try to breed them with a nubian buck. Only one of the does got pregnant and she had a black and white doe. My dad and me did have to help her a bit though since the baby was pretty big. Many people say that you can't breed a pygmy doe and a male nubian but it is possible!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Daniel De La Cruz said:


> Many people say that you can't breed a pygmy doe and a male nubian but it is possible!


Yes, it's "possible".
It's also a very bad idea.
The female should always be the larger breed.


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## Daniel De La Cruz (May 15, 2017)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Yes, it's "possible".
> It's also a very bad idea.
> The female should always be the larger breed.


Well it hasn't been a bad thing for me, since that time I have done it more than 10 times and the moms have had no problems. 3 new ones were born a week ago and I didn't even help the mom, she was able to do it all by herself.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I would never ever ever suggest breeding the smaller doe to a larger breed buck. Glad you're having luck with it but believe it or not there are a lot of very good reasons to not do it. You're probably lucking out with multiples and does being a strong influence on kid size both with uterus size and her own genetics. At some point, it is highly likely to fail and at the humane expense of the animal. There really is no advantage to doing it that way even if it is 'possible'.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

There are a lot of factors. The cattle industry has a better handle on things than the goat industry. With cattle, we talk about paternal calving ease. This is essentially birth weight and overall shape of the calf. Newborns with huge heads will be more prone to problems, as will those with very long legs, or huge chests. There is maternal calving ease, too. This factors in things like pelvic width, how easy the dam can give birth. With goats, there is no reference, none of this information is recorded, and in most cases not even considered. With dairy goats, there is often selection towards the largest birthweights, they will be the biggest kids usually. Selection for milk, and the constant observation that most dairy breeds are under eliminates any need to factor in "kidding ease". There are some Saanens that will sure throw some whopper kids, I would be uneasy breeding some of these to a first time kidder regardless of breed.

The thing to consider, a pygmy dam is going to contribute MORE than 50% to kid size. Her genetics are going to play a 50% role, in making the kid smaller. Her small size is also going to contribute greatly. The pygmy is going to bring a lot of "maternal kidding ease" to the table as well. Historically they were just out back taking care of themselves without much regard to someone watching them during kidding. They have had opportunity to naturally select toward lack of kidding problems.

If you breed a buck, regardless of breed, that has a history of throwing enormous, long legged, big headed kids to any first time breeder, there is potential risk. If you breed any buck to a doe with an unnaturally small pelvis, there is potential for problems. If you breed a Nubian buck, that throws appropriate sized kids to a Pygmy doe that has not had a history of kidding difficulty, I wouldn't look at it as certain death for the doe. I surely wouldn't worry about it with any pygmy doe crossed with a nubian buck that had kids unassisted in the past from the same buck. As long as she was in her prime. Sometimes a doe's fertility drops a little, and she will have a single kid late in life, and if she throws all of her resources into growing that single kid, it could go poorly.

A big factor that plays in is management. If you keep the does too fat during late pregnancy, you are just making huge kids, and setting yourself up for metabolic problems after they are born.

So, death sentence? Not necessarily. Good idea, given other choices? Not necessarily that either.


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