# My friend David Oakleaf was killed inside Walmart



## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

My 74 year old dirtbike motorcycle buddy, David Oakleaf, was killed by a homeless man after Dave, appearently refused to give him any money after this scum asked for some. Dave stood all of 5'5" tall and his attacker, a black man who stood 6'6"+ killed him with an aluminium baseball bat! Beat him to death in the sporting goods section at the Lakewood Walmart in Carson California. Beat him to death while others cowerd and watched. Words cannot describe the anger i'm feeling right now. Dave was one of best people i have ever known, and i'm the better for it. He will surely be missed by many. May God rest his soul.

Jeff


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Oh God, Jeff, I am so very very sorry. I will keep you and his family and frineds in my thoughts and prayers.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

So very sorry about your friend. This was completely senseless.


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## snoozy (May 10, 2002)

I am sorry for your loss. What colour was your friend?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

snoozy said:


> I am sorry for your loss. What colour was your friend?


Maybe get it prosecuted as a hate crime?

Sorry to hear about your friend Jeff

I hope the dirtbag gets prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

snoozy said:


> I am sorry for your loss. What colour was your friend?


Thank you to everyone for your thoughts and prayers!

Redish brown! He spent most of his time outdoors in the desert, and over the years he developed a dark, dark tan, some photos i have he looked red!


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## Helena (May 10, 2002)

My husband and I agree that the people that were watching and not helping should be charged with "something"..What is this world coming too. Walmart is responsible for for his death also. If you were stealing something from the store security would be on your like a duck on a june bug. How sad..I can not imagine standing by and watching anyone getting hurt or insulted verbally.... I have been know to have a big mouth .I have no problem calling attention when needed...so very sorry for your loss..What is this country becoming..it scares me...God Bless..


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## sherry in Maine (Nov 22, 2007)

I'm sorry folks stood by while that happened, and didn't get involved.
What is happening to the world?
I'm sorry for your loss.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

I am sorry for the loss of your friend. Shame on the folks that cowered like dogs.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

I am so sorry, prayers for justice.


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## megafatcat (Jun 30, 2009)

God bless his soul and help you in your grief.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> My husband and I agree that the people that were watching and not helping should be charged with "something


What would you have done against a 6' 6" lunatic with a bat?


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

I am so sorry that your friend met his end in this senseless manner. God bless him and his family.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Let me add my condolences too. I don't understand people today. I don't care how big the man was that attacked him, someone should have stepped in to stop it. Prayers for you and all who loved David.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What would you have done against a 6' 6" lunatic with a bat?


I would have gotten a bat for myself and it would have been an even match.


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

Quote "What would you have done against a 6' 6" lunatic with a bat?"

Preferrably shot him, picked up something, anything, threw it at him, smashed something over his skull, skewered him through the abdomen with something, etc. Some things can be done from several feet away. I fear for our country, for our citizens, when people cower. I had to act to save my own life once, and I survived. 

JeffryD, I am so very sorry to hear about your friend. I had read this story on a couple of news sites today. God bless him, and his family, and all his friends, and I hope the murderer spends the rest of his life in prison, where he belongs.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Very sorry to hear about your friend. Thoughts and prayers for you, your friend and family....James

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_19254167


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What would you have done against a 6' 6" lunatic with a bat?


Become a 6'4 lunatic with a bat..


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## kenworth (Feb 12, 2011)

Sorry for your loss.

Good friends are priceless.

May God hold you and all families involved close at this time of sorrow.


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## pamda (Oct 14, 2004)

Wow, that is awful. And I would have become a 5'6" old lady with a serious bad attitude. Done it before will be glad to do it again! Can not believe people watched and did nothing, Cowards all.
So sorry for the loss of a good friend.


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## AR Cattails (Dec 22, 2005)

I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend. Such a heinous, senseless crime. I, too, pray for justice.


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

Sorry to hear about your friend.Will keep you in my prayers.eb


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Jeffrey, I'm so sorry about the murder of your friend and I share your anger.



Bearfootfarm said:


> What would you have done against a 6' 6" lunatic with a bat?


Something could have been done. I'm a 5'2" woman and I've intervened on attacks by people (big and small) who were using 2 x 4's, shovels, cook pots and even furniture as their weapons. Something can be done if people aren't afraid to intervene and will just use their heads and act quickly. In a store like Walmart where there were bystanders and a plethora of items on shelves that could be used as weapons then people could have done _something_ to intervene. They could have yelled to distract him, thrown heavy things from off the shelves at his head, smashed into him over and over again with shopping carts, hit him with hand baskets, or used something to sweep his feet out from underneath him.

People freeze up when they see something bad like that, sometimes they can't believe what they're seeing happen and they're afraid of getting themselves hurt so their minds go blank and they just don't think right or react quickly enough.

.


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## clong (May 9, 2009)

And this is why everyone who can should have a CCW permit....and actually carry.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

I read about that story a day or so ago (Drudge?). The whole incident is disturbing...and senseless. 

I'm very sorry for the loss of your friend.


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## snoozy (May 10, 2002)

clong said:


> And this is why everyone who can should have a CCW permit....and actually carry.


I don't think having the lunatic carry a weapon is really a very good solution....


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## Ana Bluebird (Dec 8, 2002)

OMG, I'm so sorry to hear about it. It's a good thing he didn't have a gun---bystanders would have been involved if they wanted or not. I would hope I would have done SOMETHING, you know, even if I am only 120 pounds, but I don't really know.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What would you have done against a 6' 6" lunatic with a bat?


My Softball days gave me a hell of a swing, at 5'3, the back of his knees would be just the right height.


Jeff, I am so Sorry. This just brings me to tears,Prayers sent.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I'm sorry that his life ended that way.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What would you have done against a 6' 6" lunatic with a bat?


Pulled my gun, yelled at him to stop, and put two hollow points in his chest the second the bat was raised again after that.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What would you have done against a 6' 6" lunatic with a bat?


Anything I possibly could, I could not look at myself in the mirror if I stood by and watched something like this happen.. Have stepped in to altercations before and will probably do it again.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Cornhusker said:


> I hope the dirtbag gets prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.


As well as the people standing by and not doing anything to help.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

I am sorry for your loss, and it's sad that people just stood there and didnt help. They will have to live with that choice, forever.
It just goes to show people now a days are scared of the laws that they created to protect the criminals.
Along with the man being black, it wouldnt look good if people helped, they would be acussed of being racist.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Sorry about your friend Jeff.



clong said:


> And this is why everyone who can should have a CCW permit....and actually carry.


:umno: 
This kind of situation has absolutely nothing to do with people carrying guns and you bringing it up in this topic is very insensitive. 

It's time to stop thinking that the only way people can be defensive or offensive for themselves is through reliance on firearms. People don't need to rely on firearms in order to feel like they have some cojones. You either have them or you don't, a concealed gun isn't going to grow them for you, all they do is give you a false sense of security.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

Paumon said:


> :umno:
> This kind of situation has absolutely nothing to do with people carrying guns and you bringing it up in this topic is very insensitive.
> 
> It's time to stop thinking that the only way people can be defensive or offensive for themselves is through reliance on firearms. People don't need to rely on firearms in order to feel like they have some cojones. You either have them or you don't, a concealed gun isn't going to grow them for you, all they do is give you a false sense of security.


:umno:

Having a gun, knowing how to use it, and being WILLING to use it is not a false sense of security. It is a REAL sense of security.

Are there other possibilities if a gun is not available? Absolutely. Had I been there without a gun, I would have willingly grabbed a bat myself, but a gun gives me the ability to stop the situation without putting myself in unnecessary danger.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Paumon said:


> Sorry about your friend Jeff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jeff first off, Sorry for your loss!

I hope the scum gets a very severe and painful punishment..

Now Paumon, you are wrong!

I only stand 5' 2".. Do you think some person who stands 6' or better is going to stop attacking me because I'm small and I have a defensive item or know some defensive moves ?

No! they won't.. In fact because I'm small in stature they will pick me out, because they think I'm an easy target... What they don't know is I do know how to defend myself (thanks to the military training) and even if they have a knife I can take it away from them most of the time (been stabbed twice).. But there is the times that I can't take it away from them, that I have to rely upon other means.. A CCW!! A concealed carry weapon, ie my pistols... I have previously stated on this site about the 3 times I've pulled my concealed weapon... Which I legally carry...

If you think you will have other items when someone tries to rob you, think again! But if you have your pistol on you, you don't have to guess what item you can use for self defense.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

That's still not a good enough reason for everyone to be carrying guns. :nono:


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Paumon said:


> That's still not a good enough reason for everyone to be carrying guns. :nono:


If everyone was carrying a gun, then more people would be polite and respectful..

Am armed society is a polite society...


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

beowoulf90 said:


> If everyone was carrying a gun, then more people would be polite and respectful..
> 
> Am armed society is a polite society...


I live in a polite and respectful society where nobody carries guns. You are more fearful in your society than I am in mine. Your society's obsession with guns and the power you think it has given to you has created your impolite and disrespectful and unlawful society.

So you tell me, which one of us has the least stressful life?


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## Goldeneye (Sep 14, 2011)

Helena said:


> My husband and I agree that the people that were watching and not helping should be charged with "something"..


You cannot require people to get involved in a violent crime, that has to be a personal choice. It is sad, however, that nobody took the risk and tried to stop him.

The more I read about this, the more it seems like a hate crime.


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## Goldeneye (Sep 14, 2011)

Paumon said:


> I live in a polite and respectful society where nobody carries guns. You are more fearful in your society than I am in mine. Your society's obsession with guns and the power you think it has given to you has created your impolite and disrespectful and unlawful society.
> 
> So you tell me, which one of us has the least stressful life?


If anything, I would think that this headline justifies the need for personal protection. It doesn't appear that Canada is opening their gates to minorities anytime soon, so I guess you can continue to live under the protection that we provide you. Enjoy.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Paumon said:


> I live in a polite and respectful society where nobody carries guns. You are more fearful in your society than I am in mine. Your society's obsession with guns and the power you think it has given to you has created your impolite and disrespectful and unlawful society.
> 
> So you tell me, which one of us has the least stressful life?


So you are trying to tell me Canada doesn't have murders, robbery, abuse, etc.. 

That is joke in and of itself, just like England and Australia.. 

Ban guns or severely limit ownership and criminals just find other ways to kill..
In fact England has even floated the banning of swords..

Oh and tell me how the Mayor of Nagasaki (I think that is the right city) was gunned down in a country that hasn't allowed gun ownership since WWII or there about?

I guess in Canada the polite thing to do when being robbed is hand over your valuables and say thank you to the robber... 

Sounds like "rolling over" to me...


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

Paumon said:


> I live in a polite and respectful society where nobody carries guns. You are more fearful in your society than I am in mine. Your society's obsession with guns and the power you think it has given to you has created your impolite and disrespectful and unlawful society.
> 
> So you tell me, which one of us has the least stressful life?


You do realize that the United States only has 3 more murders per year, per 100,000 people than Canada does don't you? 

Everyone wants to note how much higher the number of people killed by guns in in the United States than Canada, but the actual number of *murders* per capita is not that far apart. Your society is no more polite or respectful than the States.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Prove it. Show me the REAL statistics PER CAPITA for both countries. Put your money where your mouth is.

I'll get back to you on that later, I have to go to work now.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Fowler said:


> I am sorry for your loss, and it's sad that people just stood there and didnt help. They will have to live with that choice, forever.
> It just goes to show people now a days are scared of the laws that they created to protect the criminals.
> Along with the man being black, it wouldnt look good if people helped, they would be acussed of being racist.


I am very sorry for the death of the OP's friend. It does seem senseless for such a thing to have happened. While I would hope that I would have responded to aid this man, I honestly don't know what I would have done because I've never been in such a situation. I would hope that I would have been brave/empowered enough to put a stop to it, rather than just reacting in disbelief...but I'm just speculating.

I highly doubt that the people who watched this happen would have been accused of being racists if they had stepped in to help. Once the man took the first swing, it would simply be that they were coming to the aid of an injured man. Color would not have likely played any issue. 

I haven't read any articles about this case but for this to have been a hate crime, the victim would have to have been targeted due to his race, religion, sexual orientation, etc... I have no idea if any of that happened.

To me, this case highlights something else... the seriousness of mental illness in this country. Clearly, there was something wrong with this individual for him to do something this heinous. After all, the attack occured inside a store where there are ample cameras and witnesses. No sane person would choose a baseball bat as a killing weapon in a public venue with folks standing around.

There are a lot of unstable folks walking around in America who are in desperate need of meds to keep them from having delusionary episodes. When prisoners with these mental health issues are releasedm, theyt are often not given more than a couple of days worth of meds and then can revert back to crazed behavior. Most homeless people have been shown to suffer from some form of mental illness due to the stress of their current circumstances. This doesn't include the ones who are homeless due to their mental illness.

This is a very sad story and it is one that is destined to repeat if America doesn't address the problem of the mentally ill.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Random acts of violence have always happened and WILL always happen. While on one hand I would like to suggest that the WAY the request for money was turned down could have provoked an unstable person, sometimes attacks come out of the blue. When I was working in the State Hospital, many years ago, a pt. cold-cocked me while I was handing him medication. He was abjectly apologetic after, and I never had any reason to hold it against him.

People DO freeze in immediate crisis situations, and suggesting that bystanders are comprised of something other than 70 Y.O. grandmothers, kids of ten or younger, and overweight couch potatoes is wishful thinking.

There are ways of distracting, ways of diffusing, and ways of attacking that might have reduced the injuries, but that is analyzing the game after it has been lost.

Consider though, wasp spray, spray paint, spilled liquids, anything at close hand.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

In the one article cited on this it does not indicate there was any pan-handling. He was merely walking down an aisle when he attached. I doubt it took more than ten seconds. First others may have notice is the source of the first krack.

Article also doesn't mention how he was subdued.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

Paumon said:


> Prove it. Show me the REAL statistics PER CAPITA for both countries. Put your money where your mouth is.
> 
> I'll get back to you on that later, I have to go to work now.



Google is your friend. If you really wanted to know you'd look it up yourself, but since I'm in such a generous mood today, here ya go:



*# 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people *
# 25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people 
# 26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people 
# 27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people 
# 28 Dominica: 0.0289733 per 1,000 people 
# 29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people 
# 30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people 
# 31 Slovakia: 0.0263303 per 1,000 people 
# 32 Romania: 0.0250784 per 1,000 people 
# 33 Portugal: 0.0233769 per 1,000 people 
# 34 Malaysia: 0.0230034 per 1,000 people 
# 35 Macedonia, The Frmr Yugoslav Rep of: 0.0229829 per 1,000 people 
# 36 Mauritius: 0.021121 per 1,000 people 
# 37 Hungary: 0.0204857 per 1,000 people 
# 38 Korea, South: 0.0196336 per 1,000 people 
# 39 Slovenia: 0.0179015 per 1,000 people 
# 40 France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people 
# 41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people 
# 42 Iceland: 0.0168499 per 1,000 people 
# 43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people 
*# 44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people 
*

The difference shown here is less than .03 per 1,000 people. This equates to less than 3 per 100,000. Human nature is human nature. The desire and ability to murder is in the heart of the individual, not the tool he uses to accomplish it.


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## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

Harry Chickpea said:


> Random acts of violence have always happened and WILL always happen. While on one hand I would like to suggest that the WAY the request for money was turned down could have provoked an unstable person, sometimes attacks come out of the blue. When I was working in the State Hospital, many years ago, a pt. cold-cocked me while I was handing him medication. He was abjectly apologetic after, and I never had any reason to hold it against him.
> 
> People DO freeze in immediate crisis situations, and suggesting that bystanders are comprised of something other than 70 Y.O. grandmothers, kids of ten or younger, and overweight couch potatoes is wishful thinking.
> 
> ...


The problem with spraying someone with wasp spray etc will get you sued if you are a by stander and you will lose in today's courts... They don't take into account what the criminal was doing when you attacked him/them.... Now it might be different if you are the victim, but then again it might not..

One of the Gun shop owners in my area pulled his license pistol to stop a carjacking he came upon one night.. He held everyone till police arrived and never fired a shot.. It took 5 years of court battles till he finally got his license back, but it broke the bank and he had to close his shop... So the law is already biased in the criminals favor...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Preferrably shot him


It was *California*.

The odds of anyone being armed are slim.

It's easy to sit here and say what "should" have been done.

Without knowing *all* the details it's probably best not to speculate too much


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## ldc (Oct 11, 2006)

JefferyD, I want to extend my most sincere condolences for the loss of your friend, David. Best regards, ldc


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Paumon said:


> I live in a polite and respectful society where nobody carries guns. You are more fearful in your society than I am in mine. Your society's obsession with guns and the power you think it has given to you has created your impolite and disrespectful and unlawful society.
> 
> So you tell me, which one of us has the least stressful life?


That is exactly why I carry a weapon. I won't have to live in fear. I do *ALL* I can to avoid situations that may require my pulling my weapon and using it, but at last resort, I will not hesitate. If you were standing there and someone was beating you or your family with a bat, you would be the first to think, 'I wish I had a gun' so this would not be so "stressful"! There are many ways for someone to kill you without a gun. You can be polite all you want, I will not live in fear.


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

So sorry for the loss of your friend.


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## Windy in Kansas (Jun 16, 2002)

Where is someone with a concealed carry permit when you need them?

Sorry for the loss.


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## Goldeneye (Sep 14, 2011)

To think this could have all been avoided by a single, well-placed shot! This story should serve to motivate people to exercise their 2nd amendment freedoms more vigorously.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

Paumon said:


> That's still not a good enough reason for everyone to be carrying guns. :nono:


Everyone? Some people are not qualified to carry a handgun, I must agree.

Fortunately many of us are well qualified and trained. I carry. In the situation described I would have felt obligated to end the attack, in Walmart. How the attack ended would not be up to me. Be assured that the attack would have ended right there, and the man who was beaten to death would have survived.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What would you have done against a 6' 6" lunatic with a bat?


I wouldn`t have just watched, I would have grabbed another bat, or at least some balls. I would have knocked him out on the second pitch, no reason in the world to just sit back and watch. Sorry for your loss, and may God bless his soul. > Thanks Marc


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

snoozy said:


> I don't think having the lunatic carry a weapon is really a very good solution....


He proved to old adage: there is only one weapon, your brain. Everything else is just a tool.

Do you now think stores should have to place baseball bats behind the counter? Should the government force bat sellers to only sell to people over 21? Should we pass a law requiring a background check and/or a 5 day waiting period before allowing someone from buying a bat? After all it is now proven how dangerous bats can be and if such things can save even one life would it not be worth it?

If the 74 y.o. guy had not been forced by the government to be unarmed he might just have be able to protected himself and be alive today. Every day there are many attacks which don't happen because the victim is armed. A few more which are stopped when the victim uses his weapon.


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## stamphappy (Jul 29, 2010)

Jeff, I am so very sorry to hear about this. I offer prays for comfort for you and your family.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Goldeneye said:


> .... It doesn't appear that Canada is opening their gates to minorities anytime soon, so I guess you can continue to live under the protection that we provide you. Enjoy.


Snort! You don't know much about Canada's immigration policies, do you? 

Just exactly what protection do you provide to Canada? U.S.A. has never provided any protection to Canada and Canada has never needed protection by anyone against anyone. 

.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I hate to hear about this sorta thing... just dont seem right somehow. If more folks carried... openly... I have a feeling there would be less of it. Its entirely possible that our society has become too dependent upon having others take care of us. All too often it seems when seconds count the police are at the nearest donut shop. Sad, very sad.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

naturelover said:


> Snort! You don't know much about Canada's immigration policies, do you?
> 
> Just exactly what protection do you provide to Canada? U.S.A. has never provided any protection to Canada and Canada has never needed protection by anyone against anyone.
> 
> .


Have you ever seen a little tiny celebrity gal who nobody bothers, and right behind her are some huge, enormous, well armed security guards? You benefit from us by being next door.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

naturelover said:


> Snort! You don't know much about Canada's immigration policies, do you?
> 
> Just exactly what protection do you provide to Canada? U.S.A. has never provided any protection to Canada and Canada has never needed protection by anyone against anyone.
> 
> .


Well, you gotta admit that having a couple thousand miles of USA twixt you and Mexico kinda cuts down on the foot traffic by the illegal immigrants. Of course I spose you might have some folks walking in from europe across the north pole but I doubt theres too many of them either.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Well, you gotta admit that having a couple thousand miles of USA twixt you and Mexico kinda cuts down on the foot traffic by the illegal immigrants. Of course I spose you might have some folks walking in from europe across the north pole but I doubt theres too many of them either.


This is true but Canada is too cold for most Mexicans and they kind of stick out like sore thumbs so those who do sneak in illegally usually cross back into America again as soon as they can. Illegal immigration isn't a big problem anyway because it's so inconvenient for illegals in Canada, they can't blend in or take advantage of benefits here they way they can in America. Canada has more of a problem with American gangsters smuggling illegal firearms and other contraband into Canada in exchange for Canadian drugs, both the "home-grown" variety and pharmaceuticals that are banned in America.

.


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## CoonXpress (Sep 20, 2004)

naturelover said:


> Snort! You don't know much about Canada's immigration policies, do you?
> 
> Just exactly what protection do you provide to Canada? U.S.A. has never provided any protection to Canada and Canada has never needed protection by anyone against anyone.
> 
> .


Does Canada have anything that anybody would want, eh?

Other than maple syrup and polar bears, eh, what does Canada offer, eh?
( To translate this to English, remove the ehs.)


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Paumon said:


> I live in a polite and respectful society where nobody carries guns. You are more fearful in your society than I am in mine. Your society's obsession with guns and the power you think it has given to you has created your impolite and disrespectful and unlawful society.
> 
> So you tell me, which one of us has the least stressful life?


Ah yes, the myth of the polite, peaceful Canadian again. 



> Slain teenager from Armstrong, B.C. was dressed as zombie, covered in fake blood
> 
> ARMSTRONG, B.C. â A B.C. teenager was dressed as a zombie and covered in fake blood the night of her killing on Halloween, RCMP said Thursday.
> 
> ...


http://www.canada.com/Slain+teenage...+zombie+covered+fake+blood/5657243/story.html


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Ed Norman said:


> Ah yes, the myth of the polite, peaceful Canadian again.
> 
> http://www.canada.com/Slain+teenage...+zombie+covered+fake+blood/5657243/story.html


British Columbia has a serial killer in the interior who kills beautiful young women. That doesn't mean that other people in Canada who are not serial killers are impolite and disrespectful. 

So tell me Ed, what was your point in posting about this unfortunate young woman? Are you implying that she was murdered because she was maybe being impolite and disrespectful or that if she had been more impolite and disrespectful then maybe she wouldn't have been murdered?











.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

Good job ignoring his point.

Paumon posted about the 'polite and respectful' society, and insinuated that Canadians were polite because no one carries firearms. I pointed out that the number of murders _per capita_ between the USA and Canada was not that far apart. She then demanded that I prove it, and I did. 

Ed simply referenced back to Paumon's post and pointed out ONE incident of where a Canadian was not 'polite and respectful'. I am, of course, referring to the murderer, not the girl. The point that I, and I think that Ed was making, is that while we have a lot of people who carry guns, we are a polite society. But the fact that there are fewer guns in Canada doesn't change the fact that you still have people murdered every day. Even in 'polite and respectful' societies there are people with murder in their hearts, and it's the _people_ who kill, and not the tool that they use to do it. 

Most people who carry a gun are never going to have to use it in self-defense, and I pray that I'm one of them. Most people who have homeowners' insurance on their home will never have their house burn, but they still want to have it 'just in case'.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Helena said:


> My husband and I agree that the people that were watching and not helping should be charged with "something"..What is this world coming too. Walmart is responsible for for his death also. If you were stealing something from the store security would be on your like a duck on a june bug. How sad..I can not imagine standing by and watching anyone getting hurt or insulted verbally.... I have been know to have a big mouth .I have no problem calling attention when needed...so very sorry for your loss..What is this country becoming..it scares me...God Bless..


I'm a big guy, but I'm not sure what I could do against a crazy, 6'6" man swinging a baseball bat. Not being flip, but yelling and throwing stuff at him is the best I can think of. Maybe we could all charge him with our shopping carts and try to get the bat away from him.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

naturelover said:


> Snort! You don't know much about Canada's immigration policies, do you?
> 
> Just exactly what protection do you provide to Canada? U.S.A. has never provided any protection to Canada and Canada has never needed protection by anyone against anyone.
> 
> .


Snort?


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

tyusclan said:


> Paumon posted about the 'polite and respectful' society, and insinuated that Canadians were polite because no one carries firearms. I pointed out that the number of murders _per capita_ between the USA and Canada was not that far apart. She then demanded that I prove it, and I did.


Tyusclan, thanks for showing me the stats about USA:Canada having a ratio of 3:1 of murders per capita. And I wish to apologize if I sounded snappy when I said to prove it.

I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding, since you responded to my response to Beowoulf90 who had said *"If everyone was carrying a gun, then more people would be polite and respectful. An armed society is a polite society"* and I said I already live in a polite and respectful society where nobody carries guns. Meaning that I don't believe that an armed society creates a polite society and since your society is already much more heavily armed than mine is, it already has a lot of people carrying, and it still has 3 times more murders per capita - then it seems like your stats prove my point, that an armed society does not create a polite society. If it did, then by all accounts your murders per capita should be less than Canada's because you already have so many people who are carrying or feel the need to carry arms and Canada doesn't have any.

As you mentioned, murder is in the heart of the murderer, not in the tools that he carries. A murderer will use whatever tools he has handy and if he carries a firearm handy then that just makes it easier.

I think it would be more important to address the question of why your society has 3 times more murders per capita than my society does and I don't think that having everyone carrying firearms is going to solve the question. Guns don't resolve violence, the problem of what causes violence goes deeper than what kinds of tools a person uses to commit violence. 

I did some stats checking recently when somebody in another forum asked which of our 2 countries had a higher percentage per capita of police reported domestic violence and abuse. For Canada it was 12% and for America it was a shocking 40% - a little over 3 times more domestic violence per capita than occurs in Canada. Firearms is not the problem, violence is the problem and more people carrying firearms is not going to solve the problem of violence in America. Your nation needs to get to the root of what is causing the violence in the first place and address the violence with something other than having more people carrying more firearms. Firearms isn't going to make the violence go away, it can only exacerbate it and make it easier to be violent.

And JeffreyD, I apologize to you too since it appears this topic of yours got hijacked into a topic about firearms and Canada vs. America, but it isn't really about firearms or Canada, the topic is really about violence in America and the way Americans respond (or do not respond) to that violence.

You have my deepest condolences on the loss of your friend.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Paumon said:


> I think it would be more important to address the question of why your society has 3 times more murders per capita than my society does


I agree but with respect to the OP am going to start a new thread to discuss the differences between our countries that may address this question better.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I agree but with respect to the OP am going to start a new thread to discuss the differences between our countries that may address this question better.


Yes, I think that would be a excellent idea. I feel sad for Jeffrey and his grief that this topic took the turn that it did but it IS a GC topic and perhaps it will lead into a meaningful topic that can address some serious questions about violence in general. I'll check back again later on to see what you started, as once again I have to leave for work now.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Ok, I think I got it right this time. try this link to the new thread.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=419573


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

Paumon said:


> Tyusclan, thanks for showing me the stats about USA:Canada having a ratio of 3:1 of murders per capita. And I wish to apologize if I sounded snappy when I said to prove it.
> 
> ...society has 3 times more murders per capita than my society does.....


You have just proven that you can make statistics say what you want them to say. Yes, technically 3 per 100,000 is 3 times as many as 1 per 100,000. What I originally said is that the NUMBER OF MURDERS per capita is not far apart. Saying we have 3 times as many murders makes it sound a lot worse than saying we have 2 more people murdered for every 100,000 people than you do, but the fact remains the *number* of people murdered is not that different.

There are other demographics that come into play as well. We have over 300,000,000 people in a smaller land area than you have 34,000,000. The less density in the population alone plays a very large part. I'm not going to take the time to look it all up, but I'm sure if you compared the murders per capita in your larger cities with a similarly dense area in our country, the difference would be even less.

_I didn't see the new thread until after I had posted this. _


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I am not reading all the senseless bickering.

Jeff, so sorry about your friend.

You can use a shopping cart to knock a person down while staying well out of their reach. Once he was on the ground it wouldn't take much to cut off the assailants air supply. Of course coming up behind them with a length of clothesline and wrapping it around his neck and not letting go would have stopped him also.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

Ah, come on folks. All of these 'were I there when it happened...'. A baseball bat, either wood or aluminum, can be a lethal weapon. I strongly suspect the first blow was telling.

You are going to go against an enraged dued, 6' 6" and put a clothes line around this neck or hit him with a shopping cart. Yeah. Personally I would like to see someone try.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

I'm 6'6" and I would be enraged after watching it. I would probably start with a flying tackle without much consideration for possible consequences. Just like he attacked the poor old man suddenly and without warning, I would do the same to him. If nothing else, it would stop his beating of the guy. Then me and him would have to work out the winner of our particular fight. And I would welcome any other Walmart shoppers who would place clotheslines around his neck, shoot spray paint in his eyes, fill his ears with Clorox, screw deckscrews into his heels, Walmart is an arsenal of improvised weapons. I can understand the little old ladies standing back and watching in horror, but any warm blooded male should be right in the middle of that.


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

I'm 5' 8", 195 pounds. Am I about to go up against a 6' 6" enraged dude. No way.

And keep the legal aspects in mind. If you attack an attacker is it self-defense? Maybe or maybe not a state's Good Samartin law might offer some protection. You still may be sued by him or his family.

I'd like to hear the full story, such as how he was eventually subdued.

How would you call this one? Nine shots from two handguns! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...g-grid10|htmlws-main-bb|dl12|sec3_lnk3|110248

An armed society is a peaceful society. Certainly didn't seem to happen in the American West.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Ken Scharabok said:


> I'm 5' 8", 195 pounds. Am I about to go up against a 6' 6" enraged dude. No way.
> 
> And keep the legal aspects in mind. If you attack an attacker is it self-defense? Maybe or maybe not a state's Good Samartin law might offer some protection. You still may be sued by him or his family.


How could I keep the legal aspects in mind when a man is being beaten to death? Did you see the Chinese baby that got run over and dozens of people walked past her as she cried, because of some legal loophole they have over there? Sometimes the law is wrong and right is right. Worry about the legalities later. 

I guess there are some tings that need to be worked out in your mind ahead of time. Like in this case, I would attack. You wouldn't. Or if a deer hops out in front of me, I will try and brake, but I won't run off the road to save his life, that's why I have insurance. I've seen too many people hurt and killed trying to dodge the dumb things. So if you get something in your brain ahead of time, you know what to do when it happens.


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## Catalytic (Sep 15, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I hate to hear about this sorta thing... just dont seem right somehow. If more folks carried... openly... I have a feeling there would be less of it. Its entirely possible that our society has become too dependent upon having others take care of us. All too often it seems when seconds count the police are at the nearest donut shop. Sad, very sad.


Alaska is an OC state...and Walmart won't let you in if you are...


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

Ken Scharabok said:


> And keep the legal aspects in mind. If you attack an attacker is it self-defense? Maybe or maybe not a state's Good Samartin law might offer some protection. You still may be sued by him or his family.


You're right the respective states' laws do make a difference. In Florida deadly force is allowed to protect your own life or the life of someone else, or to prevent a forcible crime, such as rape or kidnapping. The statute also specifically protects you from civil action.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What would you have done against a 6' 6" lunatic with a bat?


Exactly... after the first blow, the victim was probably down, after the second, in a coma (if head shots), third one, irretrievably damaged. Anyone see how fast a person can swing a bat? [watched the World Series last month] 

After the shock of a second or two seeing this, what would I do? I'd yell something I reckon, and grab my own assault bat. Or run. I don't have concealed carry... if I did, it would be a very quick ending to that problem.

So, I can't fault others for not doing something...

My general rule is to avoid homeless people and those that have a derelict look about them, or a 'fragrance'. Or 6'6" big men with bats, unless they have kids with em.

And, if they asked me very very nicely, slapping an aluminum bat in their hand, for some money, I'd ''''gladly'''' give it all to them. Then, get security, and get this dude tazed. Security not help? He'd not make it out of the parking lot... without some broken bones... cow catcher bumpers love bones...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Exactly... after the first blow, the victim was probably down, after the second, in a coma (if head shots), third one, irretrievably damaged. Anyone see how fast a person can swing a bat? [watched the World Series last month]


That's what I was thinking.

I figure it was pretty much a done deal in the first 5 seconds


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Paumon said:


> I live in a polite and respectful society where nobody carries guns. You are more fearful in your society than I am in mine. Your society's obsession with guns and the power you think it has given to you has created your impolite and disrespectful and unlawful society.
> 
> So you tell me, which one of us has the least stressful life?


I doubt it, I live in no fear at all.. But then like 99% of the people here I also do not carry a gun. Society here is quite well known for being very friendly and polite and respectful.. Though there are bad areas and bad people, they are the same in any society especially in poorer parts of larger cities.

Something I definitely didn't experience as an English speaker last time I was in Montreal.

The only people I know that have an issue with guns are folks with fantasy ideas about people like your showing here. I don't know anyone who is obsessed with guns, nor anyone who think a gun gives them more power. It simply gives them more options to defend themselves if the need arose.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

The bigger they are the harder they fall. Yes I could and would push a shopping cart into someone who was beating another with a bat. I would do everything I could to stop an attack like that. I grew up in a rough town, self defense was a required course for girls as part of phys ed. I also know karate and dirty fighting.

Ohio law allows the use of deadly force to stop the attack of another.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Ohio law allows the use of deadly force to stop the attack of another.


But this took place in California

As I said before, without knowing ALL the details, we probably shouldn't be speculating on what "should" have been done


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Catalytic said:


> Alaska is an OC state...and Walmart won't let you in if you are...


Another good reason to not support Wal-Mart


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

Cornhusker said:


> Another good reason to not support Wal-Mart


Correct, I try to avoid all places where I am not welcome even though I carry concealed.


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## acde (Jul 25, 2011)

sorry for your loss


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## rean (Nov 18, 2008)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What would you have done against a 6' 6" lunatic with a bat?


I would have grabbed a bat and went after him! Better yet, if this was in the sporting goods dept. I would have gotten a shotgun and some shells and blasted his.....


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