# Toughest/Scrappiest/GetInThereAndMixItUpDog (besides a pit)



## TriWinkle

Let me stress again...*Besides a pit*, what's the scrappiest breed of dog you've ever encountered?

I'm not currently in the market for a dog, but always good to learn more...Not all breeds of dogs are created equal, and certainly not all dogs within the breed, but what has been your experience(s)? My neighbors have a few dogs that would run from their own tail, so critter control isn't their strong suit, heck it isn't even their weak one...They're basically noise makers with little to no backbone...

LGDs are cool, but I kinda wondered if there were any other, more compact, alternatives? I think I've said before I've got my Decker Rat, and I'm pretty happy with him, but I'm always open to learning something new...Maybe something I've overlooked?

I put this in here, because I figured I was talking about a dog's potential to function as a useful member of the farm, for keeping all manner of critters away.


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## pancho

Almost any breed of terrier.
Some of the cutest and softest are also the gamest.


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## Wildfire_Jewel

Corgis!! They aren't going to take on a coyote pack and win unless there are several of them but they do NOT back down from a fight (Or at least the ones I have experience with - other lines may be different)

Next dog that comes to mind like the other poster said - any of the terriers. They seem to all have Napoleon complexes!


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## JasoninMN

Most any dog will be tough and scrappy as long as its winning or at least thinks it winning. 

You might want to post your location and types of predators.


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## wendle

It may depend on what the dog is up against. Neither of my Pyr/Anatolians seem like scrappers, but I have yet to see either one back away from a dog that has gone after them. Not sure what they would do in a big fight, they seem pretty docile. Now my border collies act like a little bit more scrappy, but I wouldn't want them messing with coyotes, it just isn't their job.







Their job would be to control the livestock, and at times keep a protective mama cow in control. 
Interesting that you mention as long as they think they are winning. I have seen quite a few dogs that don't seem to have a lot of interest in controlling stock unless it turns away first. Some can be so bad that if it turns away first they go in for a cheap bite. It can be pretty obvious at times while training dogs to herd sheep, who can handle themselves and who can't. I'm sure there are similarities in other dog venues as they basically speak the same language. Of course there are those dogs that just go right in and don't have any sense of self preservation. There are some sort of dogs they use around here to hunt coyotes, not sure the breed, but they sure sound like scrappers and resemble some sort of hound dog.


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## citxmech

If you want a not-so-dedicated general purpose farm dog that's not too big, I would check out some American Bulldog breeders. Blasco Family Bulldogs seems to have a good program going. There are a few others around here that have these dogs on their farms, so maybe some of them can weigh-in. I'm also a huge fan of Boerboels if you can find a good breeder near you. If you can find a good one, they are wonderful dogs. The main issue with non-LGDs in a farm role is the higher prey drive may make it hard to keep them off your animals. The Dogo Agentino would have been a top choice, but they're super prey-driven and kinda big. A real Kangal would absolutely do the job but they can be a real handful for the owner who isn't committed to working with a big dog with strong opinions.


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## TriWinkle

Pancho: Good point, but it's tough to find any that aren't show dogs...I don't fancy paying a ton of money for a dog I want to use to fend off critters.

citxmech: I have two American Bulldogs, in addition to the rat, and I do believe that somewhere in all AB lineage there is pit...I like bulldogs, but the rep that comes along with them is a burden I'd rather not bear...plus, I'd prefer to dog a bit more manageable in size...less than 100lbs (yes, I know the Scotts dogs fit the category, but never was a fan of'em)...honestly, closer to 50lbs would work better for me.


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## Allen W

Airedale or Paterdale


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## JasoninMN

Maybe catahoulas, laceys or curs would be what you want.


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## colemangirly

I agree with the terrier thought. I have an airedale that will take on anything. From rabbits to once she took on 5 coyotes all by herself. Anything that isn't already on the farm better STAY off the farm.


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## Wolf Flower

Most any terrier is a scrappy dog ready to mix it up. Some more so than others. There are some lines of Airedale that are used by hunters, those dogs will take on anything with four legs. Airedales also come in all sizes; the standard specifies a medium size dog around 35-40 lb, but I have seen 90+ pound Airedales that weren't fat. 

Irish Terriers are also pretty scrappy. I groom one that I have to be careful with--he's okay around other dogs as long as they are in their own cages and not looking at him. But should he catch another dog giving eye contact, it's on--and if I'm not careful, he'll redirect and bite ME.

There are smaller terriers that are also heck on wheels--the German Jagdterrier, Fox Terrier, and some Jack Russells are pretty fiesty. I hear Patterdales are also, but I remember hearing that they have Pit Bull in their ancestry. I could be wrong about that.


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## YankeeinMarylan

If I was looking for sheer guts. A true Irish short wire jack russell. They will take on all comers and the neighbors. Sorry to the AKC folk but a real irish jack is short and short backed. With a wider fore head and true grit like no bodies business. Lots of brains and lots of I'm a bigger darn dog then you and your buddy Bring IT! 

But this was when I was overseas.


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## JPiantedosi

I would say an Airdale, would be a good choice. I had one as a catch dog when we had coyote hounds and he was a bad ass! I also had a Terrier/Pit (bout 30lbs) cross that my parents laid claims to when I went back to college and I have seen her roll my dads neighbors pyr, for chasing my cows that are there on pasture.

I think my next general farm dog will be a rhodesian ridgeback.
Jim


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## TriWinkle

Good suggestions...Not crazy about some terriers grooming requirements though...If ya gotta shear/groom a dog, then it probably wouldn't do well down in this Texas heat.


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## emdeengee

Our first dog was part Husky and part something else big and would scrap with his own shadow if in the mood and he was pretty moody. And he never gave up. But he was the gentlest dog with people.


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## BarbadosSheep

YankeeinMarylan said:


> If I was looking for sheer guts. A true Irish short wire jack russell. They will take on all comers and the neighbors. Sorry to the AKC folk but a real irish jack is short and short backed. With a wider fore head and true grit like no bodies business. Lots of brains and lots of I'm a bigger darn dog then you and your buddy Bring IT!
> 
> But this was when I was overseas.


Sorry, but the REAL original Jack Russell Terrier is not an Irish breed, it's English. Parson Russell developed this breed to hunt foxes and described them as "long of leg" to keep up with the horses. The short legged ones are not correct to today's breed standard or the original breed standard. But yeah...they will take on most anything. They won't win against a big dog but that won't keep them from trying. I had a female once that insisted she could beat my female Rottie. After two failed attempts (each of which nearly killed her), we had to find her a new home where she could be the only dog.


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## Haven

Most of the short-legged terriers are tenacious and give me a run for my money at work. Even the little Foofroo house/couch terriers that do not like getting groomed, come tearing into the shop, tail up, ready to spar, looking forward to the fight over trimming their nails that they know is coming. They enjoy the fight.

These dogs really do not have huge grooming requirements as long as you keep them lightly hand stripped at home. Most people shave them which is what creates a more difficult, messed up coat.


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## Wolf Flower

TriWinkle said:


> Good suggestions...Not crazy about some terriers grooming requirements though...If ya gotta shear/groom a dog, then it probably wouldn't do well down in this Texas heat.


Jack Russell, Jagd and Fox terriers come in smooth-coated varieties. But yeah, the Airedales can carry quite a bit of coat, which would need clipping.


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## Pops2

you can get slick, broken & true wire coated airedales. they're called redlines & are bred for work. they are mostly versatile hunters, but some have been trained to herd some.


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## Wolf Flower

Pops2 said:


> you can get slick, broken & true wire coated airedales. they're called redlines & are bred for work. they are mostly versatile hunters, but some have been trained to herd some.


Well, I'll be darned--I didn't know they came in a smooth coated variety! Cool!


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## Pops2

the original airedale came in slick, broken & wire coat. it was the show crowd w/o an understanding of work & their own standard that made their dogs have poodle like soft curly coats. still the show lines produce a throwback from time to time.
not sure about the top pic but it looks alot like a gyp Pete B has in PA.
the bottom pair are definitely off Matt T's line in AZ.


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## Allen W

Really like the looks of the smooth coated airdales. Makes me want an airdale even more now. This old golden reteiver I have wouldn't put up with another big dog on the place though.


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## JasoninMN

Its funny you say that allen about your golden. My neighbors golden liked to fight with everything and is one of the most animal/dog aggressive dogs I ever met. He got along good with my dog except they had to have a fight every year for him to remember she could beat the snot out of him. That goofy golden would fight anything and often times came out the loser but never hesitated to do it again.


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## Wolf Flower

I found both the photos here: Mogollon Rim Index Page (JH version) . I emailed the fellow asking about the slick coats, he said they have always existed in the breed, but it was mostly eschewed by show fanciers. He says his Airedales are bred for hunting but make good farm dogs also. I have to say, I've always liked Airedales but hated the coats I've seen on most of them--soft, curly, profuse--and this guy breeds away from that type of coat. Nice guy, very willing to answer questions if you have any. His email is available through the website.


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## Haven

I groom an Airedale that looks like the top one with the orange collar. Very small, narrow ***** with a fabulous, very light, straight, wire coat, almost smooth. Have never seen another one of her type around here. Will have to ask the owner where she came from.

Oddly enough, she is dumb as a box of rocks...like wide-eyed, spooky, whacky, running into walls type dumb.


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## Pops2

Wolf Flower said:


> I found both the photos here: Mogollon Rim Index Page (JH version) . I emailed the fellow asking about the slick coats, he said they have always existed in the breed, but it was mostly eschewed by show fanciers. He says his Airedales are bred for hunting but make good farm dogs also. I have to say, I've always liked Airedales but hated the coats I've seen on most of them--soft, curly, profuse--and this guy breeds away from that type of coat. Nice guy, very willing to answer questions if you have any. His email is available through the website.


yeah Matt is good people. he's been the target of some slagging matches but I can't recall him ever starting one nor getting nasty back. the only other good working dale breeder near you is Don T & he only produces the big wooly ones. not to mention you can get two or three pups from Matt for what Don charges. if i were looking to get a pup where i'm at now i'd go to Matt.


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## Pops2

Allen W said:


> Really like the looks of the smooth coated airdales. Makes me want an airdale even more now. This old golden reteiver I have wouldn't put up with another big dog on the place though.


might be agood dale would cure him of that.


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## Allen W

Pops

He's earned his place


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## Pops2

Allen W said:


> Pops
> 
> He's earned his place


not saying he hasn't. just saying a good dale might teach him that fighting if he don't have to is more exhaustion than he wants to go through every day. not to mention if he helps raise a pup they may not ever get into a scrap anyway.


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## sandsuncritters

Pops2 said:


> yeah Matt is good people. he's been the target of some slagging matches but I can't recall him ever starting one nor getting nasty back. the only other good working dale breeder near you is Don T & he only produces the big wooly ones. not to mention you can get two or three pups from Matt for what Don charges. if i were looking to get a pup where i'm at now i'd go to Matt.


And my respect for your knowledge and experience just increased a notch (or 2+) 

In His Love
Mich


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## sandsuncritters

Not going to argue over a breed's history or capabilities, but...

For a scrappy little critter gitter a Jack Russell Terrier is the most efficient machine I personally have ever witnessed. 24/7/365 on extreme high alert and will never quit, to the death.

I think somewhere you indicated less than 50 pounds? Right around there would be a mountain cur. 

My favorite all around farm dog is the stray walker hound puppy who was so emaciated that she squeezed between the post and the gate hinge to find sanctuary. 16 years later she still puts the chickens up each night, counts the horses into the barn, brings me the occasional offending mouse, and does perimeter check before coming in the house. God help anyone who attempts to enter the property before I give the ok.

I personally prefer females because they are more protective than aggressive, JMHO

Hope this helps

In His Love
Mich


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## Rock

My choices small to big Jack Russel, Bull terrier, American Bulldogs, (Im bias on the last pick, but why no APBT?)


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## Wolf Flower

Pops2 said:


> yeah Matt is good people. he's been the target of some slagging matches but I can't recall him ever starting one nor getting nasty back.


Why would he be a target for slagging? Of course this is the internet so I guess there doesn't have to be a reason...


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## beccachow

GSD crosses; the cross to get some of the overly protective instints out. My DH had a cross who came out of nowhere when he was cornered on a car roof by a rabid possum and tore that thing to shreds.

probably not the best farm dog, tho; too much predatory drive.


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## Wolf Flower

beccachow said:


> GSD crosses; the cross to get some of the overly protective instints out. My DH had a cross who came out of nowhere when he was cornered on a car roof by a rabid possum and tore that thing to shreds.
> 
> probably not the best farm dog, tho; too much predatory drive.


German Shepherds are smart and trainable; they do have high prey drive, but can be trained to leave livestock alone. My older girl is golden with livestock, even though she played a couple chickens to death when she was a pup. It's all about puppy selection and picking the right temperament. A softer temperament is easier to train, they become tougher as they mature yet tend to retain their training for life, as long as you are firm, fair, and consistent.


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## Pops2

Wolf Flower said:


> Why would he be a target for slagging? Of course this is the internet so I guess there doesn't have to be a reason...


historical pics not withstanding, there are some folks that firmly believe the big wooly dogs are the original. and they insist Matt crossbred to make his line. most of the slaggers seemed to have pets from show breeders & only dabbled at hunting & PP. Matt always seem patient W/ the nonsense (not always true of his supporters though). it mostly revolved around a breed specific forum. i quit going on because of the nonsense & so did Matt.
FTR IF i remember right Matt's stock goes back to Henry Johnson's line.


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## Pops2

sandsuncritters said:


> And my respect for your knowledge and experience just increased a notch (or 2+)
> 
> In His Love
> Mich


i respect people of good character & don't hesitate to speak well of them. i also have heard good things from people that have dogs off his line. so i don't mind saying that either.
in that regard, i wouldn't hesitate to reccommend Odinn, Pete, Al, Eddie or Lamar to folks in their areas wanting working bred dales. because even if these folks don't have anything, they will know who to send them to.


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## Wolf Flower

Pops2 said:


> historical pics not withstanding, there are some folks that firmly believe the big wooly dogs are the original. and they insist Matt crossbred to make his line.


I specifically asked him whether the Airedale was outcrossed at some point to produce a slick coat. He said, basically, that the slick coats were there from the beginning, but also reiterated that several different breeds were used to create the Airedale and some outcrossing was done in the early days of the breed, until the fanciers got what they wanted.

Except for those terriers specified as soft coated (Wheaten, Kerry Blue, Bedlington, etc), and smooth coated, I firmly believe that terriers should have a harsh, wiry, tough-as-nails coat. Unfortunately, show breeders tend to like a lot of furnishings, which usually means a softer coat. This just isn't practical in most cases; the purpose of a terrier coat is to protect him from the elements, from stickers and burrs, and from whatever critter he is hunting. 

A true hard coat is a wonderful thing; it is mat-resistant, sheds water and dirt like crazy, and nothing sticks to it. What few mats or stickers you might find are easily removed with a couple strokes of a slicker brush. Of course, most people don't let me handstrip their terriers, which is key to preserving that harshness, but some dogs keep a hard coat even when clipped, like the aforementioned Irish Terrier, and some JRT's.


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## TriWinkle

Pops2 said:


> you can get slick, broken & true wire coated airedales. they're called redlines & are bred for work. they are mostly versatile hunters, but some have been trained to herd some.


Good idea! I had heard of them before, but forgot about the redlines...Cool dogs.


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## gracie88

> GSD crosses; the cross to get some of the overly protective instints out. My DH had a cross who came out of nowhere when he was cornered on a car roof by a rabid possum and tore that thing to shreds.
> probably not the best farm dog, tho; too much predatory drive.


Heh. My dog's father was a shepherd/malamute/wolf (mostly shepherd) and her mother was a G Dane and wow, does she want to hunt, not super brave though, she wouldn't make it as real protection. I've finally gotten her convinced that livestock is off limits and everything else is fair game. Watching her hunt mice might be the silliest-looking thing ever (like driving tacks with a sledge hammer my father says) but she gets the job done. She might be a doggy genius, but she's the first dog I ever wished I had a shock collar for. She is so busy, and her first instinct for everything farm-related seems to be exactly wrong. On the plus side, I have less live moles/gophers/mice, the deer/possums/skunks/*****/coyotes/cougars don't come around, and with her brains and desire to please, by the time she's 12 she ought to be a pretty good dog...

Those slick-coated Airedales are beautiful.


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## akane

My akita wouldn't start anything and goes out of her way to avoid a fight but you don't want to start something with her. Ask the few animals who have. As a 5month old pup this big old retriever took offense to her playing nearby and grabbed her by the throat. She didn't whine, she didn't try to run away, she didn't give in... She drove straight in to his jaws with everything she had so he couldn't pin her down immediately and caught his front leg with her mouth to crunch down. His pulling on her neck ended up taking himself to the ground because she had his leg. At that point his owner reached them and the whole thing ended in a draw.

I've dragged her off a few big ***** as well before she could get herself torn up. Usually with blood splattered across her muzzle or shoulder that I couldn't account for so she must be hitting the suckers.

She set off on a coyote once and ripped her belly open because she dove straight through a barb wire fence to run it off and kept going. To my own stupidity I followed her and dove through the barbwire fence as well trying not to lose her. So we were both in great shape when I finally caught up to her at the edge of the corn field. She's taught not to go in to tall corn.

Due to a misunderstanding she also almost took out our neighbor one day but that's 75% his fault, 10% the fact allergies had plugged her ears so she couldn't hear my commands, and the rest just bad timing. He's a big guy and she thought he had issued a threat at me. Then when she gave a warning bark that would stop 99% of people in their tracks he just kept coming with a really aggressive stance in our direction. I thought I was going to be explaining crunched bones to the police and animal control but she finally heard me and just took up stance between me and him until he was passed.

Akitas were bred to hunt bear, then to dog fight, and finally back to being guard dogs. The japanese lines won't back down from anything they think needs taken care of but they don't start pointless fights either. I'm not going to comment on what american breeding has done to the akita but I won't buy one that isn't Japanese lines.


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## pancho

akane said:


> My akita wouldn't start anything and goes out of her way to avoid a fight but you don't want to start something with her. Ask the few animals who have. As a 5month old pup this big old retriever took offense to her playing nearby and grabbed her by the throat. She didn't whine, she didn't try to run away, she didn't give in... She drove straight in to his jaws with everything she had so he couldn't pin her down immediately and caught his front leg with her mouth to crunch down. His pulling on her neck ended up taking himself to the ground because she had his leg. At that point his owner reached them and the whole thing ended in a draw.
> 
> I've dragged her off a few big ***** as well before she could get herself torn up. Usually with blood splattered across her muzzle or shoulder that I couldn't account for so she must be hitting the suckers.
> 
> She set off on a coyote once and ripped her belly open because she dove straight through a barb wire fence to run it off and kept going. To my own stupidity I followed her and dove through the barbwire fence as well trying not to lose her. So we were both in great shape when I finally caught up to her at the edge of the corn field. She's taught not to go in to tall corn.
> 
> Due to a misunderstanding she also almost took out our neighbor one day but that's 75% his fault, 10% the fact allergies had plugged her ears so she couldn't hear my commands, and the rest just bad timing. He's a big guy and she thought he had issued a threat at me. Then when she gave a warning bark that would stop 99% of people in their tracks he just kept coming with a really aggressive stance in our direction. I thought I was going to be explaining crunched bones to the police and animal control but she finally heard me and just took up stance between me and him until he was passed.
> 
> Akitas were bred to hunt bear, then to dog fight, and finally back to being guard dogs. The japanese lines won't back down from anything they think needs taken care of but they don't start pointless fights either. I'm not going to comment on what american breeding has done to the akita but I won't buy one that isn't Japanese lines.


They tried using the akita for fighting. They failed miserably. Not game at all and no mouth. Pretty dogs but will cur out in a short time.


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## KnowOneSpecial

My 6 pound Yorkie is pretty tough. He loves to go up to 80 chocolate labs and pick fights. I never said he was smart, but he's willing to throw down and get in a good fight....


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## JasoninMN

deleted


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## Haven

KnowOneSpecial said:


> My 6 pound Yorkie is pretty tough. He loves to go up to 80 chocolate labs and pick fights. I never said he was smart, but he's willing to throw down and get in a good fight....


Lol, that is so true  Unfortunately they have as much game as a board of checkers. Yorkies and Chihuahuas are like tough little bullies that love pick a fight and put on a big display, then go screaming back to mommy and wet themselves at their first chance.


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## YankeeinMarylan

Akitas were bred to hunt bear, then to dog fight, and finally back to being guard dogs. The japanese lines won't back down from anything they think needs taken care of but they don't start pointless fights either. I'm not going to comment on what american breeding has done to the akita but I won't buy one that isn't Japanese lines.[/QUOTE]

My husband had one that would kill any and all animals near it from two Rotties and a German shepherd and tore up several pitts. She would act all friendly to all animals and the minute they relaxed she killed. He went and tried to rehab her with training and everything esle including building the Fort Knox of outdoor kennels. When I married him, I had him out her down. She was good for people. Animals were goners. I would never trust a Akita again. Most are very dog aggressive. Very few including in the show ring were not.


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## JasoninMN

The Akita never was a fighting dog and never will be.


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## nancylee

My neighbor's Jack Russell would dig under the fence, and take on my Great Dane every few months. No matter how he would get beaten up, he would do it again. Crazy! I had a dog with some JR in him, and one night he was out in the woods, barking at about 5 coyotes who where right near him. I would not go into the woods, I was alone, had no gun, and he would not come. I thought he was a goner, but, no - he came back shortly, after running off the coyotes!! I loved that dog, he was gutsy!! 

My Great dane loved other animals, except he did try to have relations with my neighbor's sheep once, but his voice and size intimidated many 4 and 2 legged troublemakers. Maybe a Dane? They love everyone, very sweet, but will bark and defend, if push came to shove. They kill by grabbing the back of the neck, they were bred to kill wild boars. I miss my Dane.


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## pancho

Sometimes people will read what the original breed of dog was bred for. They fail to read all about the breed.
When they say a dog was bred for hunting bear that doesn't mean they go out and catch and kill a bear. It means they will chase, bay, or tree a bear.

When they say a dog was bred for hunting boars it is the same. They did not kill the boar by biting the back of their neck. Any dog that even tried that would have his insides on the ground before he broke the hide on the boar.

Most dogs will fight as long as they are winning. A very few will continue to fight when they are loosing. Only one breed has ever been know to do that.


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## BarbadosSheep

pancho said:


> Most dogs will fight as long as they are winning. A very few will continue to fight when they are loosing. Only one breed has ever been know to do that.


Pit bulls are not the only breed.....I know of plenty of Jack Russells that will keep fighting even if they are losing. I had a female I had to rehome because she kept attacking my Rottie. She nearly died every time she did it and only survived because we were home and intervened. As soon as she was well enough, she'd escape again and go after the rottie again. She was kept in a 6' high chain link kennel with a concrete floor and chain link top. She climbed the sides of the pen and worked her way around the top, pushing up against it with her nose until she found a way to get out. Then she'd go climb another fence to get in with the rottie. At first we had no idea how she was escaping but I watched her one day from the window and saw her do it. She was rehomed to save her life.


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## pancho

BarbadosSheep said:


> Pit bulls are not the only breed.....I know of plenty of Jack Russells that will keep fighting even if they are losing. I had a female I had to rehome because she kept attacking my Rottie. She nearly died every time she did it and only survived because we were home and intervened. As soon as she was well enough, she'd escape again and go after the rottie again. She was kept in a 6' high chain link kennel with a concrete floor and chain link top. She climbed the sides of the pen and worked her way around the top, pushing up against it with her nose until she found a way to get out. Then she'd go climb another fence to get in with the rottie. At first we had no idea how she was escaping but I watched her one day from the window and saw her do it. She was rehomed to save her life.


They are not true game dogs. They are stubborn dogs. They have limited gameness. 
In the U.S. history of fighting dogs there hasn't been another breed that could be called a fighting dog. Dogs are matched by weight. On a contract it does not say the breed of dog, most of the time it does not say a certain dog, just a date and a weight.

Pit bulls can range from as small as 10lbs for a grown match weight dog to a little over 50lbs. match weight. If there was ever a dog between those weights that could defeat a pit bull the owner would be an instant millionaire.
Most people who match dogs will match a dog of a different breed at least twice as large s their fighting dog. That means they will match a 40lb fighting dog against an 80lb dog of any other breed.
Still hasn't been any breed that will defeat a pit bull even at those odds.


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## nancylee

My Dane would play that way, by grabbing the other dog, or even my son once, playfully by the back of their necks. Everythink I have read and learned about them verifies this. So how would they kill their prey? Or is this incorrect, they did not hunt boar?


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## JasoninMN

They did not KILL the boar. They were catch dogs and held it till their owners got there to kill the boar. They are still used as catch dogs today.


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## pancho

nancylee said:


> My Dane would play that way, by grabbing the other dog, or even my son once, playfully by the back of their necks. Everythink I have read and learned about them verifies this. So how would they kill their prey? Or is this incorrect, they did not hunt boar?


There is a lot of difference in hunting an animal and killing an animal.
Boars have tusks. They can cut a dog in two pieces with one cut. The neck and shoulder of a boar is the toughest part of the hog, even bullet proof in some cases. There is no a dog made that can kill a boar by biting it on the back of the neck. Impossible to do. Much like you holding one by the back leg.
When a dog grabs a hog by the back of the neck it exposes the most tender under belly of the dog to the tusks of the boar. The first boar the dog did this to would also be his last.


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## nancylee

JasoninMN said:


> They did not KILL the boar. They were catch dogs and held it till their owners got there to kill the boar. They are still used as catch dogs today.


Ah, thank you!! I always love to learn new stuff, especially when I had the information wrong.

Thanks!
Nancy


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## nancylee

pancho said:


> There is a lot of difference in hunting an animal and killing an animal.
> Boars have tusks. They can cut a dog in two pieces with one cut. The neck and shoulder of a boar is the toughest part of the hog, even bullet proof in some cases. There is no a dog made that can kill a boar by biting it on the back of the neck. Impossible to do. Much like you holding one by the back leg.
> When a dog grabs a hog by the back of the neck it exposes the most tender under belly of the dog to the tusks of the boar. The first boar the dog did this to would also be his last.


Thank you! I loved my Dane and am glad to know the true story now.
Nancy


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## Haven

it seems the smart ones latch onto its tail and go for the tendons above the rear hocks. You see predators in nature videos do the same thing.


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## TriWinkle

Good info everyone...Keep it coming...I"m kinda surprised I haven't seen more people mention curs on here...Jason did, but I don't think anyone else...the Redlines were an awesome idea, and one I may explore...any thoughts on catahoulas? Sorry, if some of this has already come up...memory stinks at times.

ETA: I did want to mention that while I appreciate the suggestions on the JRTs, I'm not real fond of those dogs...The neighbor across the street has one, and barks (and barks and barks and barks and barks some more and one more time just for good measure) at me whenever I go to check my mail or take out the trash...For a while there he would charge me and even tried to bite me a time or two when I had my back turned...Until one day he did that when I had my Decker and my female AB with me...they took exception to his behavior...Now he barks at me from the safety of his front porch.


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## Badger

I've got to vote for Airdale - Gamiest dog I've ever seen. Jump 8' straight up, Couldn't hurt em with a 2x4, not afraid of anything.


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## Pops2

pancho said:


> They tried using the akita for fighting. They failed miserably. Not game at all and no mouth. Pretty dogs but will cur out in a short time.


not all fighting dogs are game dogs. if you wanted a country rules match that averaged 5 min & max of 10-15 min, akitas would do just fine. it's cajun rules that really defines the game dog.

i know bulldoggers will dispute it, but there is different kinds of game. you take the kind of heat a 20# **** puts on a 50-70# hound & put that on a 14# patterdale or border in a hole. when they take all that & stick till the **** is dead or die trying, that's a little game. when they will do that 2 or 6 times a night, a couple or 4 times a week from Oct to Mar, well that's game. 

and for everyone who doesn't knowe better, hogs cannot actually cut dogs in two. they can gut them & slice them up real bad but they cannot actually cut them into two pieces. that was just a turn of phrase.


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## pancho

Pops2 said:


> not all fighting dogs are game dogs. if you wanted a country rules match that averaged 5 min & max of 10-15 min, akitas would do just fine. it's cajun rules that really defines the game dog.
> 
> i know bulldoggers will dispute it, but there is different kinds of game. you take the kind of heat a 20# **** puts on a 50-70# hound & put that on a 14# patterdale or border in a hole. when they take all that & stick till the **** is dead or die trying, that's a little game. when they will do that 2 or 6 times a night, a couple or 4 times a week from Oct to Mar, well that's game.
> 
> and for everyone who doesn't knowe better, hogs cannot actually cut dogs in two. they can gut them & slice them up real bad but they cannot actually cut them into two pieces. that was just a turn of phrase.


Country rules used to be my favorite. I liked it much better than Cajun rules. I had one dog that country rules were just about the only way to match him. When he got hot he would scratch into a man as quick as he would a dog. When I let him go I didn't touch him again until the other dog was dead. That was always in the contract. No one can pick up a dog.
My old toothless dog I would always match Cajun rules. You could see the gleam in the eyes of the people when they found out my dog didn't have a tooth in his head. From the release up to the 30 minute mark we would get all kinds of odds. From 30 minutes on the odds changed the other way. Won 7, never lost. Match weight 51lbs.

No one I knew would match a game dog into a cur dog unless someone had some real money to back the cur dog. That is cruel.

I never saw a **** that could make the minute mark with any of my dogs. If it was a large old boar he might live long enough to make one squall. I put a bell on my dog's collar so I could hear them shaking out a **** when they caught it.

Yes, it was a figure of speech on cutting a dog in two pieces. They will usually get their intestines spilled all over the ground. Especially if the dog tries to catch the back of the neck.
Not anyone I knew would match into a non game dog.


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## DamnearaFarm

[QUOTE

My husband had one that would kill any and all animals near it from two Rotties and a German shepherd and tore up several pitts. She would act all friendly to all animals and the minute they relaxed she killed. He went and tried to rehab her with training and everything esle including building the Fort Knox of outdoor kennels. When I married him, I had him out her down. She was good for people. Animals were goners. I would never trust a Akita again. Most are very dog aggressive. Very few including in the show ring were not.[/QUOTE]

Had the same sort of experience. But in my case, I raised my girl from a pup. Socialized her with cats and other dogs. She did great until one day..... she decided that anything on four feet was fair game.  She lived the rest of her life on a runner INSIDE her kennel. I had to have her pts when we moved to NM. 
Beautiful girl and great with people. Anything not human? Not so much.


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## Wolf Flower

pancho said:


> Country rules used to be my favorite. I liked it much better than Cajun rules.


Can you describe Country rules and how they differ from Cajun?


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## pancho

Wolf Flower said:


> Can you describe Country rules and how they differ from Cajun?


You can do a search on Cajun rules and they will explain it much better than I can.
In Cajun rules the dogs are released. If a dog ever turns, acts like he wants to quit fighting, the next time they are out of holds each handler picks up their dogs. The dog who turned is released. He has a set time in seconds to make contact with the other dog, or scratch. If he doesn't he looses and the fight is over. If he makes contact in the time the next time they are out of holds the handelers pick up their dogs and it is the other dogs turn to scratch. Either dog can quit anytime they want to. They just loose the fight. Fighting ability is not as important as gameness.

Country rules are not really rules. The dogs are dropped and the fight is over when one handeler decides to pick up his dog or one dog can't fight anymore.
Country rules are what most of the novice dog fighters use. Some dogs are better suited at one or the other.
If you have a dog that is an awsome fighter but not really game Country rules are made for you. He has a chance of winning before gameness comes into play.
If you have a very game dog but not much of a fighter Cajun rules are for you. The game dog will keep trying even though he is loosing. If the other dog is not game, not conditioned, or not handeled properly you have a chance of winning with a dog that is loosing the fight.


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## Pops2

i meant matching two akitas would give you a descent but short match, which is what the japanese in Akita prefecture wanted. just like the spanish cultures really like a couple of big dogs for relatively short messy matches. come to think of it most non anglo cultures like big dogs in short messy matches.


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## Pops2

an average sized patterdale and **** half again bigger down a hole is a pretty even match. the smart dogs learn to lock jaws w/ them & drag them out of the hole so they're easier to kill.


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## Wolf Flower

pancho said:


> In Cajun rules the dogs are released. If a dog ever turns, acts like he wants to quit fighting, the next time they are out of holds each handler picks up their dogs. The dog who turned is released. He has a set time in seconds to make contact with the other dog, or scratch. If he doesn't he looses and the fight is over. If he makes contact in the time the next time they are out of holds the handelers pick up their dogs and it is the other dogs turn to scratch. Either dog can quit anytime they want to. They just loose the fight. Fighting ability is not as important as gameness.
> 
> Country rules are not really rules. The dogs are dropped and the fight is over when one handeler decides to pick up his dog or one dog can't fight anymore.
> Country rules are what most of the novice dog fighters use.


I see. Cajun rules seem a bit more humane (if you can call anything about dog fighting humane), as the dog can quit anytime he wants, and is picked up if he looks like he's thinking about quitting. It seems to be a better way to test gameness.

The young thugs seem to use Country rules, if you can call them rules. Free-for-all until one dog runs away, dies, or is picked up.

I have heard that in other countries like Turkey, where LGDs are fought, the fight is over when one dog submits to the other. Sort of like Country rules I guess.


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## pancho

Wolf Flower said:


> I see. Cajun rules seem a bit more humane (if you can call anything about dog fighting humane), as the dog can quit anytime he wants, and is picked up if he looks like he's thinking about quitting. It seems to be a better way to test gameness.
> 
> The young thugs seem to use Country rules, if you can call them rules. Free-for-all until one dog runs away, dies, or is picked up.
> 
> I have heard that in other countries like Turkey, where LGDs are fought, the fight is over when one dog submits to the other. Sort of like Country rules I guess.


Yes, Cajun rules don't allow a dog to be fought that doesn't want to fight.
A match was a way to test gameness. Pit bulls were supposed to be a game breed but you can't tell by looking if a dog is game or not. Matching them was the only way to breed correct pit bulls. Sometimes a dog will win a match without even seeing the other dog. I can remember winning a match one time without my dog even knowing there was a match. Just as people breed racing greyhounds, the only way to see if the dog will run is to race him. You can't tell by looking at a dog what they are capable of doing. If a person decides to raise a breed of dogs especially bred for a trait they should test for that trait before they breed. Or go with another breed.

Every country has their fighting dogs. Different countries different breeds.
Years ago transportation wasn't like it is today so the fighting dogs were local dogs. Most were not bred for fighting. That didn't stop people from fighting them. Today with easy transportation a dog can come from different countries. Now it is possible to get a pit bull into countries that have never seen one. Dog fighting is changing. The local dogs are being replaced.
Just about every country now has pit bulls. It is much easier to get a fighting dog into another country than it is to get a tourist in.

For a couple of hundred years the U.S. had the best fighting dogs in the world. It is beginning to change. Many of the best in the U.S. have been exported to other countries. Laws are different there. Some people are even leaving the U.S. and taking their dogs with them. The quality of pit bulls in the U.S. is getting lower each year. It won't be long until the pit bull in the U.S. is just another cur dog.


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## pancho

Pops2 said:


> i meant matching two akitas would give you a descent but short match, which is what the japanese in Akita prefecture wanted. just like the spanish cultures really like a couple of big dogs for relatively short messy matches. come to think of it most non anglo cultures like big dogs in short messy matches.


Yes, big dogs are not something that the people in the U.S. use. Just not enough action. My largest dog's match weight was 51-53lbs. and he was considered a large dog. You want the largest dog at the least weight.
It is a fine line between a dog at the top of his strength without an ounce of fat and a dog that is drawn down a little too far or a dog that is a little too heavy. Not a lot of people are a good judge at conditioning a dog. Those who are good at it usually win.


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## Pops2

warning thread drift
Pancho do you remember any blue dogs after 1970? i was under the impression blue was extinct in the breed by then. i know the hippos bred in the 1990s came from neapolitan crosses.


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## pancho

Pops2 said:


> warning thread drift
> Pancho do you remember any blue dogs after 1970? i was under the impression blue was extinct in the breed by then. i know the hippos bred in the 1990s came from neapolitan crosses.


There were a couple of people in Texas that had a few blue dogs that were the real thing. 
I think they had about 25% Staff blood, Expert or Ruffian I think. That was back when some of the staffs had some degree of gameness. They were exceptional dogs. I can remember one ADBA Ch. and a couple that were fairly good pit dogs.
These were not the fat, short, wide blues you see today. These were tall, slim, deep chested dogs.
By the mid 1980s the blues and red nose were becoming a fad. The red nose especially. By the mid 1990s the re nose had dimmed and the blues were the most popular color. Some of the new type of owners even thought red nose and blue dogs were a seperate breed.

Today a blue pit bull is not considered a pit bull. 99% are the result of crossbreeding.

I forgot about the Watchdog pit bulls. Back years ago they were a pretty good dogs, not great but above average, and many were blue. Then Courtier sold out to blue pit breeders and now they are considered trash.


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## TriWinkle

Thread drift all ya like fellas...Talking dogs should be fun...Let the conversation go where it goes...As I said, I was interested in dogs, other than pits, but it's still good to learn about all breeds.

BTW, anyone else wanna jump in and throw out another breed, feel free...Pancho and Pops are dog men of old and can really provide good info.


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## pancho

TriWinkle said:


> Thread drift all ya like fellas...Talking dogs should be fun...Let the conversation go where it goes...As I said, I was interested in dogs, other than pits, but it's still good to learn about all breeds.
> 
> BTW, anyone else wanna jump in and throw out another breed, feel free...Pancho and Pops are dog men of old and can really provide good info.


Thanks, sometimes people don't like thread drift. For me it is just like a conservation. A person says something and that starts a slightly different conservation.


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## Wolf Flower

pancho said:


> Some of the new type of owners even thought red nose and blue dogs were a seperate breed.


This drives me crazy. Every day I see ads on Craigslist like this:

"Pitt bull puppys for sell. mother is blue nose and father is red nose. 5 weeks old and eating solid puppy chow. will make grate family dogs. 150$"

or

"ABPT pups, 50% American, 25% Red Nose, 25% Brindle. $100 each to good homes. Both parents on site. NOT FOR FIGHTING!"

As though "Red Nose", "Blue Nose", "American", and "Brindle" are different breeds.

And then you have the ads that say "Blue Nose Pit" and the dog pictured is not blue, or "Red Nose Pit" and the dog pictured has a black nose.

People are amazingly stupid, so stupid it makes my brain hurt. :grit:


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## pancho

I see more blue pit bulls for sale nowdays. All of them are the short fat hog looking dogs.
They will always give a bloodline but don't know enough about the breed to know the bloodline they are so proud of is a cross breed dog.
Most of the dogs can't walk across the street without stopping to rest.


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## JasoninMN

Pancho do you know anything about Boudreaux dogs? Boudreaux's Skull ROM produced blue puppies when bred to a black boudreaux/garner female.


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## pancho

JasoninMN said:


> Pancho do you know anything about Boudreaux dogs? Boudreaux's Skull ROM produced blue puppies when bred to a black boudreaux/garner female.


Yes, know him and his son. Their dogs never really impressed me. I tried a few of them but never found what I would call a good one. I would never have a Garner dog on my property.

It wasn't that unusual to get a blue dog every once in a while. It was unusual to get a good blue dog. Same thing can be said of the white, liver, todays merle dogs. Many people would cull a blue pup before anyone found out their bloodline produced it. Today that is much more likely to happen except those who breed for color only. Which is the reason most pit bulls are bred today. 

When a person breeds a dog because of it's color only they usually give up quite a few other more valuable traits. Especially a dog bred for any job. Color does not make a dog better at any job. When breeding dogs for a job using any other scale besides the ability of doing that job will result with poor quality dogs.


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## JasoninMN

I had heard that they are known more for their mouth and not so much their gameness. Boudreaux's Skull ROM appears to me to have become a ROM because he was repeatedly used as a stud to anyone. He has hundreds of pups out of him but few appear to be any quality. Insomnia had me looking at pedigrees last night.


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## pancho

JasoninMN said:


> I had heard that they are known more for their mouth and not so much their gameness. Boudreaux's Skull ROM appears to me to have become a ROM because he was repeatedly used as a stud to anyone. He has hundreds of pups out of him but few appear to be any quality. Insomnia had me looking at pedigrees last night.


Lots of people will breed to a stud just because he is well known. Don't matter what he is know for. If you breed one enough sooner or later you will come up with a good one. If you pick and choose your competition you are much more likely to win.

There is a good book with a lot of history and pedigrees that was put out by a man with the last name Brown. If you can get one is it very interesting.


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