# 6 mo. old now in "excessive play" stage, help needed



## sriston (Mar 30, 2013)

Greetings everyone. I have a problem that I hope you experienced LGD owners can help me with.

Our LGD pup, Kate, is now 6 months old. Kate is a Great Pyrenees. We have had her since she was 12 weeks old. She was raised by her working parents on a goat and poultry farm. Our farm is a goat and poultry farm, too.

Kate is well behaved, minds very well, and is well socialized with both her animal family and her human family. She has an incredible bond with the goats and poultry- having an LGD and watching that bond grow and watching her "work" has been such an incredible experience!

Kate is now, according to my LGD manual, at the age where "excessive play" causes problems. She is now larger than any of our goats (we have Nigerian Dwarf goats), and, of course, much larger than our poultry and waterfowl and barn cats.

She tries to play with them, and has wound up pulling out some of our birds feathers. This is purely play- there is no aggression involved at all. She never bites, but she will chase them, and when she catches them, she will rub her head on them and put her huge feet on them, all the time wiggling all over with joy. It is exactly how my handbook describes the "excessive play" growth/maturity stage in an LGD. She is such a large puppy that it wouldn't take much at all to hurt one of our birds.

Kate lives in our pasture, which is about 2 acres (fenced) and is located well away from the house.

Using a shock collar is not an option, simply because we are not always out there to supervise and/or see all behavior. 

I understand, from my book, that separating her or tying her up is our best solution until she has outgrown this stage in her development. I do not want to risk tying up an unattended dog, so I will focus on separating her during the daytime hours when the animals are roaming freely in the pasture. (They all go in barns at night.)

I have an area that is enclosed and divided into three pens. I use these pens (and they are large pens complete with little miniature barns) for my bucks. One of these pens, the one I refer to as the "front" pen, has an excellent view of the entire pasture. I also have another pen that is outside of the pasture, built as a lean-to type structure off of our north barn. This pen could house her, but it does not provide an optimal view of the pasture and because it is not located inside the pasture, there would be much less through-the-fence socialization with the animals in her care.

I am leaning towards confining her in the front buck pen (with the buck that currently resides in it), putting all of her toys, etc., in it, and keeping her enclosed in it during the time periods that we are not out there. I would let her out when I went out there to do the chores and spend time time with her. At night, after the animals are in the barns, I would let her have free roam of the pasture.

The other solution that my LGD manual mentioned was simply separating the animals that she was getting too rough with and hurting, but it seems to me that it would be far easier to confine her than it would to confine the other animals.

I am curious as to what you all think of my "plan" for getting through this stage of her LGD development, and I appreciate any and all suggestions. I am also wondering if separating her from the animals she has bonded with and are in her care will affect her bond with those animals? Since she would be having limited physical contact with them, would I encounter any problems when she is mature enough to stay with them 24 hours a day again?

Thanks so much for your time and advice. I appreciate it.


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## hastyreply (Nov 10, 2012)

I have two 6 month old Abash pups. This is exactly why I got 2 of them. I really only need one dog but knew that they needed a buddy. Mine play hard with each other. Sometimes they will play chase with the lambs, but from what I've seen the sheep start the game. I'm a bit worried about lambing in 3 months. How they will do. I had a previous dog break a lamb's leg just bouncing around and being so excited to see it. I will probably pull them from the lambing pen until the lambs are big enough to get out of the way on their own.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I would not put him in with the buck. He could get hurt and not be able to get away. Put him in a pen by himself, adjacent to the buck and/ or others. It might help if you took him out every morning and gave him some hard exercise. A tired dog is going to endure being penned up better than an energetic one. As soon as you get home, work him hard again.

While in the pen you might try giving him a horse toy. Giving him fresh raw bones (suitably sized) will also give him something to do and help set the teeth.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

sriston said:


> I understand, from my book, that separating her or tying her up is our best solution until she has outgrown this stage in her development.


I love this statement. It is so sweet.

I always kind of believed that a chicken plucked here and there was a small price to pay for the service of the dog. But that is just me. I know how mad I was at the dogs when they plucked my favorite frizzle's tail then killed my polish rooster. (I'm the foolish person who spend $200 to have the vet save the frizzle's life from pneumonia before this happened.) Anyway, Some people say to tie the dead chicken to the dog's collar and make them drag it around for a few days until it disgusts them. I have never tried that, but you might ask someone who has done it.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I had a German Shepherd who would PLAY with my goats by chasing them. I put her on a short leash and attached that leash to my other dog (older and well mannered/protective) who would NOT LET this GSD chase the goats. Did that when I could not be around; however, the rest of the time, I kept a close eye on her and each time I saw her "start" to chase, I corrected her verbally (sometimes with a knock on my window). You can see by the pic below how this GSD turned out. (Also, this GSD "learned" to run "with" the goats in playing and she would jump on top of the old oil drum just like they would and push each other off, then run again. It was fun to watch her play like that.)

I suspect your playful LGD simply needs a friend that can be played with and, were I in your shoes, that is what I would give her instead of separating her from her charges. (I've only had one LGD, a Karakachan; and I have never seen this dog chase anything but my labradore. Thus, my knowledge about your particular breed is only what I've read about LGDs in general.)


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## sriston (Mar 30, 2013)

Thank you, everyone, for your replies and information. Confining our pup didn't work, she climbed out of the pen easily (it is a six foot, chain link fence). So, for now, she will stay in the pasture and we will just ride out this stage of her development.

I do agree that a few chickens who have had their feathers pulled out is a small price to pay for the job she does. Although she is just a pup, we always had heavy livestock losses from hawks, owls, coyotes, bobcats, and all other types of wandering wildlife until we finally bought this pup. Since we have had her (although she was small, I assumed the predators sensed her presence), we have not had any livestock losses. We now have 31 ducks- I tell her she might be doing her job too well, LOL.

She loves our goats and plays with them, too. They play with her. The babies will lay down and cuddle up with her when they are not with their mama.

Although I would love to have another dog to be a companion for her, I simply do not want the expense or responsibility of another dog. 

Again, thank you all for your replies. I appreciate it.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Maura said:


> It might help if you took him out every morning and gave him some hard exercise. A tired dog is going to endure being penned up better than an energetic one. As soon as you get home, work him hard again.


Hard exercise and playtime with other dogs is what got our Catahoula through this stage.
Still takes lots of exercise as Catahoula's are very high energy dogs.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Hot wire costs $100 and you can install it on top and bottom of the kennel. She will be zapped and will stay in it. I had to install it to prevent my catahoula male from jumping over the fence. 6 foot tall wooden fence to be exact.


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## Foxglove (Jun 25, 2013)

I totally agree with hastyreply, LGD's work best in pairs and packs. It sounds like the puppy had a great start being raised in a pack, and then was put into a situation where she's the only dog. She needs someone to play with or she's going to choose her own playmates. I don't know what LGD manual you are following but if I were you I'd throw it into the nearest fire! It sounds like they're giving you horrible, outdated advice. Tying an LGD is a train wreck waiting to happen, as you are giving the dog specific territory to guard and she may start going after anything that crosses into that territory, and shock collars really pretty much negate the purpose of having an LGD, not to mention most are smart enough to figure out you're pushing the button. I also get the idea that you've been told that a pup MUST stay in the stock to properly bond....another outdated idea. I don't think this is your fault at all, I just think there is so much bad and erroneous advice being given in terms of how to run LGD's it's awful and it's why so many dogs are failing. I know you mentioned that you didn't want the responsibility of another dog, however I think you'd find running two is really not that complicated. It may actually make your life much easier in terms of current as well as future issues. I've attached photos of two of my pups at 10 weeks old walking through the sheep as well as a photo of their dad and his litter sister hanging out with their sheep, photos don't really lend credence as well as videos, and I have a a couple of really good ones of the same two pups at 5 months old that really illustrates the benefits of two pups but I haven't figured out how to post a video, not sure it's possible...If getting another dog is just beyond your capabilities, you mentioned you have ND's; does your buck have horns? It might not be a bad idea to put her in with him, but I'd do it first with supervision to see how they're getting along.


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## edwardsonfarm (Feb 3, 2015)

Foxglove, those LGDS are beautiful. What bred/mix are they? Could they handle being with hogs?


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## Foxglove (Jun 25, 2013)

The two adults are pure bred Spanish Mastiffs, they are really great LGD's big and heavy enough so they don't go over or under fences, and very laid back with all my livestock. Also large enough to deter even very large predators. My male is 38" at the shoulder and 220 lbs. the female is approximately 35" and 185 lbs. The pups are 3/4 SM by this male and my 1/2 SM and 1/4 each Anatolian Shepherd and Maremma female. This breed is excellent with all stock in my experience, they are actively guarding, cattle, pigs, sheep and goats and even rabbits, chickens and ducks. Mine guard sheep, goats and chickens, and are very gentle even with small children, cats and my yappy old Scottish Terrier. The two pups in the photo are guarding rabbits and goats in OR, when their new owner took them for a vet check they were respectively 92 and 83 lbs at 6 months old. They have two litter sisters who are guarding Tennessee Meat Goats in TX and I'm getting really great reports from both owners. I also have two pups going to a farm in WA to guard pigs from my next litter. I love them! Here's a couple more photos...


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## Naturenut3 (Feb 19, 2016)

When there has been excessive play or roughness with the dog and the goat we have cut a 4x4 log, the width of the dog's chest, put an i bolt in it, and using a hook attach it to the dog's collar so they can not chase the goats. It interferes with running, although one our anatolians learned to hold it in his mouth so he could run. We leave it on for a few days and observe to see if the dog still chases the goat. If so the log goes back on when they are caught. This usually does break the rough housing with our younger dogs.


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