# FYI QH eye candy



## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

http://up.craigslist.org/grd/2717367137.html 

Saw this ad tonight - thought he was handsome enough to share.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Wow, he looks like a yearling. 

The ad never does say how old he actually is.


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

For some reason I thought 4, but you're right, I can't find an age either.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

That ad is a perfect example of how to not sell a horse. The owner goes on for paragraphs and offers very little important information. After reading the whole thing, I understand she's selling a pricey prospect and she thinks he's wonderful omits trivial details like age, genetic/bloodlines etc. Her photos aren't going to attact the people she's looking for either, one makes him look very narrow chested, the one that makes him look like he has decent chest, makes him look like he has no hip.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

wr said:


> That ad is a perfect example of how to not sell a horse. The owner goes on for paragraphs and offers very little important information. After reading the whole thing, I understand she's selling a pricey prospect and she thinks he's wonderful omits trivial details like age, genetic/bloodlines etc. Her photos aren't going to attact the people she's looking for either, one makes him look very narrow chested, the one that makes him look like he has decent chest, makes him look like he has no hip.


My thoughts exactly. The ad is a huge bunch of "fluff", with almost none of the important information a prospective buyer would want to know.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

malinda said:


> My thoughts exactly. The ad is a huge bunch of "fluff", with almost none of the important information a prospective buyer would want to know.


I agree, and nothing about his lines except "they are all good ones." Phish, good lines to me means something vastly different than to someone that wants a peanut rollin' puke.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Well, he's got a very pretty face, but it's hard for me to enjoy a Western horse taught to carry his neck like that, or, worse yet, does it naturally! I agree the ad does him no service - a really good head shot would help him, pictures that show his hip and front to good advantage and some solid information would be more impressive. 

I looked though and almost all of the ads on our local Craigslists are worse, not better. However this one rancher that breeds Quarter Horses puts up some decent ads - I really like this gal for instance:

http://moseslake.craigslist.org/grd/2709036060.html

He's got some pretty babies every year.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

That's a whole lot of money for a breeding stock Paint. I cannot imagine paying that much for an unbroken stallion. IMO two weeks does not a broke horse make. Not that I'm any kind of conformation guru or anything but he doesn't look like stallion material to me. 

He is a nicely colored bay but part of the reason I prefer Paints over QHes is spots. I love pretty, white legs, a big butt, and spots.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Joshie said:


> That's a whole lot of money for a breeding stock Paint. I cannot imagine paying that much for an unbroken stallion. IMO two weeks does not a broke horse make. Not that I'm any kind of conformation guru or anything but he doesn't look like stallion material to me.
> 
> He is a nicely colored bay but part of the reason I prefer Paints over QHes is spots. I love pretty, white legs, a big butt, and spots.


He's AQHA, not Paint. But, I agree, two weeks of riding is almost nothing. Certainly not "broke".

I think the pics are posed - that is he is being enticed to lower his head with a treat or something. Notice how he's scoping his neck, and his throatlatch area is opened, like how Arabs are posed for halter classes, only he's being enticed downward, not up and forward. I don't know of any horses who walk around in the pasture with their heads that low naturally.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

malinda said:


> He's AQHA, not Paint. But, I agree, two weeks of riding is almost nothing. Certainly not "broke".
> 
> I think the pics are posed - that is he is being enticed to lower his head with a treat or something. Notice how he's scoping his neck, and his throatlatch area is opened, like how Arabs are posed for halter classes, only he's being enticed downward, not up and forward. I don't know of any horses who walk around in the pasture with their heads that low naturally.


My Appaloosa walks around carrying his head like that, in fact, it's not unusual for him to walk along while I'm riding with his nose to the ground like a dog following a trail. Have no idea why he does it, but he does it out in the field on his own. Maybe he's just a strange horse though. LOL 

It used to be that western pleasure classes liked the head set in a "natural carriage" that showed relaxation. Usually a neck that was in line with the back. But I noticed that now they like them with their heads below the level line. Does look like he has a nice sweeping trot though. But I'm no conformation expert.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

GrannyCarol said:


> I looked though and almost all of the ads on our local Craigslists are worse, not better. However this one rancher that breeds Quarter Horses puts up some decent ads - I really like this gal for instance:
> 
> http://moseslake.craigslist.org/grd/2709036060.html
> 
> He's got some pretty babies every year.


No crap and just the facts is exactly how you go about selling a good horse. As a matter of fact, there's a lot about that one that would make me want to go take a look and see what else they might have.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

If I were looking for a QH weanling or yearling, I'd take a trip down to see what he has at his ranch. They are reasonably priced, solid good looking horses with working backgrounds. Sometimes he has a mare (like this one) for sale, but mostly youngsters. 

I'm pretty sure he has plenty of land and they grow up as horses with a lot of space and exercise.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

I think he is cute. Certainly not stallion quality, but would make a cute little show horse. A lot of his good looks are due to excellent grooming. He's all shined up, but at least you can see he can be cleaned up and look good.

I think the gray mare would be worth going to look at.


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

I just love those high bay socks. 

So, if he wasn't AQHA, and he was young (room to grow yet) - what's wrong with him? I'm no horse person...I thought his pastern angle looks good, hooves a tad small but decent, no hay belly, so well cared for. He definitely has a trimmer build than one would expect with a QH.

The lower right pic looks like he is following something...perhaps a low pail of grain contributing to the low neck? Look how his tail is being held out of the way...I'd guess someone on either end of him.

Let's leave the ad lack of specifics out. If you were out for a drive, and saw this fellow by the fence, would you stop on the road to eyeball him? Or shoot on by and say "Sheesh, what some people don't know about confirmation and how it makes a good horse?"

I like the steel gray mare, too!


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Bay socks?


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

Points. Bay Points?

He is a bay, isn't he? 

Go ahead, laugh at my expense. I can't hear you!


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

he is a bay - and in my pony club lexicon I'd say he has gorgeous stockings not sure if socks and stockings are what is used in states or not


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Socks and stockings are white markings, no matter the base color of the horse. My "point"  is that all bay horses have black points, that's what makes them a bay. 

Oh, and I love bays too.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I would expect a QH stud colt to have more hip and a wider chest and I'm thinking his shoulder is rather upright. He's definitely well groomed and pretty, nice color and fancy pictures. The price is pretty darn high though. I'd say he's a nice $2000 horse around here. I don't see what I'd look for in a QH stud. Also the ad itself lacks a lot of useful details - who are all those great horses in the pedigree? What have they done? What training does this horse have? $4000 horses here are usually good ropers or barrel horses or something. 

As for being pretty, he has a pretty head, lovely color (I love a bright bay like that) and is nicely turned out. He's not hideous at all.  I'd be more likely to stop for this little girl though (same breeder as the gray mare)

http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-439737

There's a QH rear for yas!


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

The bay colt is WP/HUS bred. He probably has a lot of TB in him.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

malinda said:


> The bay colt is WP/HUS bred. He probably has a lot of TB in him.


Quarter Horse HUS (hunter under saddle) aka western pleasure horse in drag. :grin: IMHO he's a western pleasure puke that may have Impressive :yuck: lurking in his pedigree. If he had great lines the owner would have listed them especially since he's still a stallion. This is a case of "pretty is as pretty does."


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/aliltalkinrequired


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wolffeathers said:


> http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/aliltalkinrequired


Did I completely miss this or did the owner recently add it? :smack I knew there would be Impressive lurking in there, tho I did think it would be more than once...


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> Did I completely miss this or did the owner recently add it? :smack I knew there would be Impressive lurking in there, tho I did think it would be more than once...


It was in there the whole time. Just hidden amongst the excessiveness. It was what? Half a sentence betwixt 3-4 huge paragraphs.

I think he's handsome, easy on the eyes, but not worth $4000. And the owner definitely needs to work on becoming better at advertising.


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

He's not very suitable for a homesteading horse, but he looks very suitable for what he was bred for, a QH pleasure horse. She is correct, he is well bred. He has very little TB blood in him. The closest one is his great grand dam, and that is the only one for several generations back. That puke Impressive is his great great grand sire, not close enough to help or hurt in my opinion. Since the horse for sale is hypp N/N, Impressive becomes irrelevant when he is back that far, in my opinion. RSVP is a well respected sire. I don't like his neck, but he has had some very good minded, super moving offspring over the years. His owners were modest people, not the blue blood deep pocket sort, so he was not campaigned much. He's a nice horse. Sweet Talkin Chip is an Equistat leading sire of money earners for WP, one of the best sires out there, particularly as a broodmare sire I had a bay grandson of his (paid more than $4k as a weanling for him too) and he carried his head just like that photo, clean throat latch, super laid back horse. On his second ride under saddle, I ponied his gelding buddy all over town on him and he never took a wrong step. A horse bred to be super steady and unflappable under any conditions is part of what makes the pleasure horses so very consistent, if somewhat boring, to ride. 

I agree her ad was one runon sentence, but there is enough info in there for people looking to find the info they need. The people who don't like those kinds of horses normally wouldn't bother to even look up his pedigree. Those that do, would. I think her ad is okay. The market is tough right now, doubt she will get her price, but she still may. Hope she finds a nice show home for it. He is definitely bred for it, and looks the part. Nice horse.

Edit to add, here's a photo of a daughter of my Sweet Talkin' Chip grandson. You will have to take my word for it. No one is asking her to carry her head that way. I am longing her and trying to photograph at the same time. She was on an uneven dirt pile, going slightly down hill. I tied the reins off so she couldn't put her head down too low as she was going around. This is just her natural look. Some horses just move that way and are comfortable with it, and comfortable to ride.


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

Well, I just thought he was nice looking. Don't have a horse of my own (it's been a loooong time), and I scan Craigslist to get my horse fix. If he's pretty and has decent confirmation, then it's all good!

(I'm glad someone spelled out HUS, but, aren't all hunters under saddle?)


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

HUS is a specific QH term. Real hunters would never move like or be trained like a HUS horse.


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

More info on Hunter Under Saddle
http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Hunter-Under-Saddle-Ideal&id=602156


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

You might explain what a "Western Pleasure puke" is - I know because I hate that look of the horse going 'round with his nose way down, but not everyone knows what the look is, or why some people really dislike it.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I had to get more coffee to fuel my slightly poetic rant about "western pleasure pukes." What coffee does a Pixie use as fuel, you ask? Espresso blend in a french press and because of the holidays it's infused with peppermint mocha creamer goodness. 

Imagine a very slightly bulky TB with the same light bone but smaller feet, coloring is either solid (preferably with "chrome" to catch the judge's eye), pinto, or Appaloosa coat pattern (they're all the same horse now anyway) somewhere between 15.2 and 16.2 hands, *immaculately* groomed. The tack will be light oil and dripping with silver, and the rider's outfit alone will cost approximately the same as a designer wedding gown. Kardashians envy WP clothes for the glitter and shine.

I have to preface this with a disclaimer- I have not willingly seen a western pleasure puke in it's natural habitat in almost 9 years. The WPP has a movement all it's own and it ain't natural. The walk is a snail's pace crawl that kicks up dust at every stride, the muzzle is somewhere between mid chest and upper arm height with poll broken so that the eyes are cast somewhat toward the ground. The ears and tail do not move- in some cases the tail doesn't move because it's been nerved or blocked. The WPP jog, let me add that the trot/jog is a 2 beat gait it has been a 2 beat gait since the first tiny equid roamed the earth, that involves so much shuffling that it is actually slower than the walk and kicks up so much dust that you can lose sight of the competitors and judge(s) for stretches of time. The head does not change position for a nanosecond. The first time my nonhorsey husband saw a WPP lope he turned to me and indigently asked why they let all those lame horses compete.  The lope is just slightly faster than the walk and is a *4 beat* affair, the head is in exactly the same position as the walk and jog. 

Now hunter under saddle is different! Well, different tack anyway- _exact_ same movement of the horse, _exact_ same postion of the rider (stick straight and rigid) Which is why I call it a western pleasure puke in drag. 

There you have it, western pleasure pukes in an nutshell according to Irish Pixie.  You can google "western pleasure Congress" to see what I've explained, I'd link it but I don't want to get nauseous this early in the morning.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> Espresso blend in a french press and because of the holidays it's infused with peppermint mocha creamer goodness.
> 
> The first time my nonhorsey husband saw a WPP jog he turned to me and indigently asked why they let all those lame horses compete.


YUM!

And

...my none-horse husband said "what's wrong with those horses? Why are they all limping?" when we watched a WP class at the state fair. LOL!

I never realized that they potentially nerve the tails. 

I remember the first(and only, so far) time a rode a Western Pleasure school horse. Oh my goodness he was a snail in every aspect, you had to beat him to get him into any state of motion. To beat a horse into motion and look perfectly still takes some skill(that I didn't have LOL). Then you looked around at the other students on WP school horses and they all had monster spurs on(you know the "decorative" ones that are 4 inches across with lots of spikey points. It was explained to me(by the breeder/trainer) that WP horses were bred to be slow/lazy.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

WP and HUS Quarter Horses routinely have their tails blocked. It's against the AQHA rules, but it is still done all the time. I had a client who's horse had a botched tail blocking, and the horse had a permanently crooked tail, it was very obvious. She still showed at Congress and placed quite well. Another client of my was an AQHA trainer who hauled her client's horses several hours away to a vet who would block the tails - vets are not supposed to block tails, and all the local ones refused to do it for her.

If your QH swishes it's tail in class, the judge assumes the horse is being cranky or difficult, so everyone deadens tails. Apparently AQHA judges don't know the difference between a cranky horse and one who just wants to be rid of a fly.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

The original colt in question isn't a bad horse actually. I don't see any horrible conformation faults. The training he will get will decide what type of horse he will become.

He could grow up to look like this:










This:










or this:










All three of these horses are Quarter Horses with some amount of TB in them. Different styles of training produce horses that are muscled completely different. 

I've known several AQHA/APHA horses who were lower lever eventers, and they look like small warmbloods! It's because of correct riding and training! 

Take two similar QHs, the first one is constantly bumped in the mouth with a twisted wire bit, ridden in drawreins to keep him off of and behind the bit, punished the moment he raises his head, and drilled in endless circles to deteriorate his gaits into shuffling without a modicum of suspension in the trot or canter. The second one is introduced to rein contact early in his training, he accepts the bit and rider's hand like a good dance partner, allowing the rider to lead him along. He's allowed to actually use his body in a true trot, canter, and gallop. He raises his head and pricks his ears anytime there's a jump within his line of sight. He loves his job and you can tell he's a happy horse. These two horses, though the same breed, will look like completely different horses. It's all in how they're trained.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Are they still blocking/nerving navicular horses, Malinda? I knew a bunch of really young horses (same trainer) that were routinely getting hock injections, I think they were in the 3-4-5 year age range. I hate longe line futurities... I hate two year old futurities too. :grumble:


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

I had to add this pic just for fun!










Now that's a REAL Quarter Horse "Hunter Under Saddle"! I don't think his knees could get any higher or tighter! He'd give any Show Hunter a run for his money!

This is a lovely, lovely QH who loves his job and has obviously been trained correctly and brought along quite well.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Very nice, Malinda and you're absolutely right it's not the breed it's the training.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> Are they still blocking/nerving navicular horses, Malinda? I knew a bunch of really young horses (same trainer) that were routinely getting hock injections, I think they were in the 3-4-5 year age range. I hate longe line futurities... I hate two year old futurities too. :grumble:


I haven't seen very many nerved navicular horses lately, in fact, the last one I knew was several years ago and was a barrel racing mare.

Hocks are routinely injected on youngsters though - often times every 3-6 months on 3 year olds! I just trimmed a 7 year old APHA mare who's hocks are so arthritic, her owner is retiring her from showing. I think of my Dressage clients, who's horses, at 6 years old are just getting started with their show careers! They probably won't get any hock injections until they are in their late teens! The difference in longevity and soundness is amazing.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

eggzackly said:


> More info on Hunter Under Saddle
> http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Hunter-Under-Saddle-Ideal&id=602156


Taken from the article:



> When the hunter is asked to extend the trot or hand gallop, he should do so smoothly and in the same flowing motion of his other gaits.


A HUS "hand gallop" is a joke. It's barely a medium canter and they are required to "hand gallop" in between two cones spaced about 20 feet apart.



> The hunter will be penalized for being on the wrong lead at the canter or the wrong diagonal at the trot.


How in the world can a *horse* be on the "wrong diagonal"??


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

From the AQHA website:

(d) The following terminology is a description of western pleasure
gaits:
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The Walk
(1) Poor walk - uneven pace and no cadence. Has no flow
and may appear intimidated or appear to march.
(2) Average walk - has a four-beat gait, level top-line and
is relaxed.
(3) Good walk - has a flowing four-beat gait, level topline,
relaxed and is bright and attentive.
The Jog
(1) Extremely poor jog - cannot perform a two-beat gait
and has no flow or balance in the motion.
(2) Very poor jog - hesitates in the motion. Does not keep
an even and balanced motion or a level top-line. May appear to shuffle.
(3) Poor jog - average motion but has negative characteristics
such as; walking with the hind legs, dragging the rear toes or
taking an uneven length of stride with the front and rear legs.
(4) Correct or average jog - has a two-beat gait, a level
top-line and a relaxed appearance.
(5) Good jog - has an average motion with positive characteristics
such as balance and self-carriage while taking the same
length of stride with the front and rear legs.
(6) Very good jog - is comfortable to ride while having a
consistent two-beat gait. The horse guides well, appears relaxed and
has a level top-line.
(7) Excellent jog - effortless and very efficient motion.
Swings the legs yet touches the ground softly. Confident, yet soft
with its motion while being balanced and under control. Moves flat
with the knee and hock and has some cushion in the pastern. Has a
bright and alert expression and exhibits more lift and self-carriage
than the âvery good jogâ.
Moderate Extended Jog
(1) Poor extended jog - never lengthens the stride and
may appear rough to ride.
(2) Average extended jog - moves up in its pace and
appears smooth to ride.
(3) Good extended jog - has an obvious lengthening of
stride with a slight increase in pace while exerting less effort and
appears smooth to ride.
The Lope
(1) Extremely poor lope - does not have a three-beat gait.
Has no flow, rhythm or balance. Uncomfortable to ride.
(2) Very poor lope - appears to have a three-beat lope but
has no lift or self-carriage. The horse shuffles, has no flow and bobs
his head, giving the appearance of exerting a great deal of effort to
perform the gait. Also may appear uncomfortable to ride.
(3) Poor lope - has an average motion but exhibits negative
characteristics like head bobbing, not completing the stride with the
front leg and leaving the outside hock well behind the horseâs buttocks.
(4) Average lope - has a true three-beat gait with a level
top-line and very little head and neck motion. He is relatively
straight (not over-canted), guides well and has a relaxed appearance.
(5) Good lope - has an average motion but exhibits positive
characteristics in his performance like self-carriage, a steady topline,
relaxed appearance and is responsive to the riderâs aids.
(6) Very good lope - has more lift and flow than the average
horse. He has a strong but smooth drive from behind. He may
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bend his knee slightly yet still has a level top-line while exhibiting
self-carriage with a relaxed appearance. Appears comfortable to ride.
(7) Excellent lope - has a round back with an effortless
strong, deep stride with the rear legs and a flat swing with the front
legs. He keeps a level top-line, a relaxed yet alert and confident
appearance and is correct but soft. A special horse with a great degree
of lift and self-carriage.
The Back-Up
(1) Poor back-up - is resistant and heavy in front. May
gap the mouth and throw his head or back crooked.
(2) Average back-up - backs straight and quietly with
light contact and without hesitation.
(3) Good back-up - displays balanced and smooth flowing
movements. Backs straight with self-carriage without gapping
the mouth with light contact and without hesitation.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

If only AQHA judges would read the rulebook...


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

AQHA can print all the BS it likes- the judges pin low headed 4 beaters all the time. A simple youtube search of "western pleasure congress 2011" proves it. 

AQHA is all about the money, period. If not, the HYPP fiasco would have been limited to a few foal crops.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

QH fan here but totally not a AQHA fan.

It was $50 just to get Fenix's papers in my name. It's a $40 yearly membership, which of course you need to do any kind of paperwork.


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

Malinda - thanks for the photos - the last two show me well conditioned/trained horses - and I'm guessing they love what they do.

Eggzackly - thanks for posting the gait standards, and the info on HUS. Some excerpts, I think, should apply to most horse/rider combinations, could they not? 

"The rider will also be able to lengthen and shorten strides as necessary. The horse should move in a free-flowing manner and exhibit the correct gates. The quality of movement and the consistency of gaits are the most important features in the movement of the hunter and the judge will begin looking for those first.

The hunter should be obedient and have a bright expression. The ears should be alert and he will respond willingly with light contact from the leg or hand. The horse should also transition to faster slower gaits with ease. When the hunter is asked to extend the trot or hand gallop, he should do so smoothly and in the same flowing motion of his other gaits." Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/602156

_Oh, if only *I *were that well trained! _


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Irish Pixie:

The only qualm I have with that is that a trot is a TWO beat gait - the opposite diagonals move together. The canter is a three beat gait, first one hind, then the other in diagonal with the opposite front, then the last front (leading) leg. However, I dunno but what a Western jog isn't broken into a four beat shuffle, I'm sure the lope is.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

GrannyCarol said:


> Irish Pixie:
> 
> The only qualm I have with that is that a trot is a TWO beat gait - the opposite diagonals move together. The canter is a three beat gait, first one hind, then the other in diagonal with the opposite front, then the last front (leading) leg. However, I dunno but what a Western jog isn't broken into a four beat shuffle, I'm sure the lope is.


You're right. :doh: First I confused the WPP 4 beat lope with the WPP shuffle jog forgetting completely that the normal trot is a 2 beat. No more posting unless I've had two full cups of coffee from now on!


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

WP and HUS will jump up and down saying their horses aren't 4-beating! It's true, some are not actually beating out 4 beats - BUT what they are doing is losing the moment of suspension in the canter/lope. The horse "technically" is still doing a 3-beat lope/canter, but there is absolutely no suspension because the gait has become so mechanically slow.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

So here are some potentially ignorant question...

Can you truly have a horse that can transition easily between the different headsets that Malinda posted? Are there truly all-round horses out there? I mean it's obvious one single horse cannot be the 'best' at everything(since every discipline has their own "style" of that breed), but can a horse easily transition between different disciplines?

I was nine years old when I was schooled a few months with jumper ponies and I recall having to "hold" the horses head "up". While trail riding, we just let our horses carry their heads where they feel comfortable(as long as it's not in our lap or face). Some will carry their head so your nose is between their ears and some you would wonder how they managed to not trip over their own nose. 

One day, when I can make the time, I want to get lessons in various disciplines to become a more well-rounded rider.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Sport Horse rider/trainers do not care about "headset". Headset is a term and something developed by rail class-type show people - not just QH people either, Arab people and other breeds have all jumped on the bandwagon of "headset".

Dressage horses are trained to use their entire bodies correctly. Collection does not even begin until several years into a horse's training, and full collection is often 10+ years into a horse's training (and that's with a professional trainer). Also, the head/neck "set" is a by-product of true collection, not the beginning of collection.

A Dressage horse would never, ever place in a WP/HUS class. Even if they were the epitome of self-carriage and lightness, they would be too fast, head too high, and not "sweepy and flat-kneed".

A WP/HUS horse would have awful scores in a Dressage test if they were ridden as they are at AQHA shows. They are extremely heavy on the forehand, no impulsion, and no self-carriage (their front legs hold up their body like a single post holding up a long, flexible pole), they are sucked back behind the bit (accepting contact is a VERY important aspect of training even in the very beginner walk-trot tests), and since the judge is watching you, and only you, a rider who jerks the reins or bumps the head down would be severely penalized.

We work so hard to get our horses to use their hind ends correctly, to accept contact with the bit, to be straight and not fall on their inside or outside shoulder, not to swing the hindquarters in or out, and all the other things that we work on EVERY time we ride. I cannot fathom wanting to show in a WP/HUS class and basically do the exact opposite type of riding/training and untrain everything I've taught my horse. It would be counter-productive, at best.

Even in the AQHA world, there are very few horses who are all-arounders anymore.

I've never once had to "hold" my horse's head up when Jumping or doing Dressage. Maybe in your case, it was a pony/kid thing. It's not the norm.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I'm almost 50 so it could be an age thing but when I was young "holding your horses head up" was a way of saying "keep steady contact with the bit and using your leg" basically, make him round. I remember an instructor telling me the same thing when I was 8-10 and taking huntseat lessons.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

You can have horses that are successful enough at a local/county open horse show level to be fun. These are open shows, not breed classes for any particular breed and not shows for a particular discipline, such as hunters or dressage or eventing. 

The horses are probably not going to win in several different classes, but they can certainly place decently and often enough to be enjoyable. But the judges at those shows are going to be seeing several different breeds in the ring at one time, at various levels of aptitude and not seeing 'specialists' in a discipline.

Some horses are better at multiple disciplines than others as well. There are 'middle of the road' type QHs that might not be very competitive in western pleasure classes, do pretty well in English pleasure classes and might manage to be pretty competitive in hunter over fences classes. I had an Arab that wasn't competitive in western pleasure classes (we were in heavy QH country) but he did quite well in English pleasure, hunter over fences and driving, and could hold his own in Arab breed competition in western pleasure and sidesaddle. He was also a good working ranch horse as well, could do any job you asked him to do on a ranch and do it well, except he was too light for heavy roping.

My foundation Connemara Pony stallion competed successfully in open adult hunter classes and dressage against all breeds of horses, was a finished driving pony, though never shown and I worked cattle on him at the ranch as well.

I don't think you will find a horse that is competitive at the regional/national level in their breed shows where 'type' has a lot to do with the judging (QH or Arab are both good examples of this) or at the same levels in a particular discipline such as hunters or dressage. But at the lower levels I think you can find horses that are good trail/pleasure horses that are competitive enough to be fun in several different disciplines.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Around here, all the open show judges are AQHA type judges. A real Sport Horse never places under them.

I know, because I used to take my horses to local open shows just for the experience. We do fairly well at the local Dressage schooling shows, so I just stick with that now.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

malinda said:


> Around here, all the open show judges are AQHA type judges. A real Sport Horse never places under them.
> 
> I know, because I used to take my horses to local open shows just for the experience. We do fairly well at the local Dressage schooling shows, so I just stick with that now.


My youngest rode an Appendix Quarter Horse hunter (she rode training level dressage on him as well) and we'd run into the AQHA type judges at 4H shows all the time. One judge stuck out in my mind, he told her "Now that's a real hunter" while in a hunter under saddle class and proceeded to place her behind two western pleasure pukes in drag. The problem was that a kid needs to "qualify" for State Fair by a points system based on class placings. There was little doubt she'd make it to State Fair because the WPP would never ever even attempt a cross rails class neverless over fences and most of the time didn't do well in huntseat equitation classes especially if they were asked to drop stirrups. :hysterical: At State Fair they had real hunter (and dressage) judges so it was worth the effort.


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

In AQHA the classes are so specialized that you rarely find one that can consistently win in Hunter Under Saddle, Western Pleasure, Trail and Halter. To compete at the top level in those, you would need four different horses. Sometimes a horse can win or place well in several of the cattle classes, but usually a WC cutter wouldn't dream of trying to win calf roping, and a reiner would not be used for barrels. A race bred horse can sometimes fit any or all of the above classes, strangely enough. Just depends what traits he inherited along the way and if someone develops them properly, and the horse stays sound. I'm not standing up saying AQHA is the end all, be all registry. Far from it. We have drifted far astray from the original topic of totally bashing a nice horse that was advertised on craigslist, and the other posters on here so intent on hating that horse and the person who posted the ad that they blew past the pertinent info plainly spelled out in the ad, knocking the seller, picking apart the horse, and either not realizing or caring what he was bred for and who the intended market was. Not you guys, that's for sure. I don't want him either, but the original post was just that he was a pretty horse is all. I still think he is.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Eggzackly- who said he wasn't pretty? He is pretty and with proper training might make a good horse, but he isn't stallion quality.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm almost 50 so it could be an age thing but when I was young "holding your horses head up" was a way of saying "keep steady contact with the bit and using your leg" basically, make him round. I remember an instructor telling me the same thing when I was 8-10 and taking huntseat lessons.


Okay, that explains it. I wish she had explained it that way, because what resulted was a bunch of student applying a good bit of steady pressure to hold the horses head literally up and then to stop we would have to lean back to apply even more pressure.

Which completely confused me because I was using the "brake" to also holding the head up. Especially on fat deadhead ponies who really didn't want work or to put up with kiddos who didn't know what they were doing. Those poor ponies were saints.

It confused me for years later because I eventually got an app mare and trail rode and if you tried to "hold her head up"(like we were taught) you were hitting the dirt or getting hit in the face(by the back of a head). She was truly the one who taught me light cues, she would do anything if you 'asked' but anyone who got on her and 'demanded' before asking she would have a hissy.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

eggzackly, your sorrel make is very pretty.

I like the dun filly.

OP, there is nothing really wrong with the horse the original post is about. I think he lacks type, but he is pretty. His problem is that he is lacking in noticeable virtues. For a stallion, a horse must be low on faults and have really strong virtues; he's got to be a lot more than "pretty". The horse is just a nice average registered gelding quality animal. Certainly a huge amount better horse than your average grade horse. He's a better horse than the registered horses coming out of someone's backyard pet mare. But he is not stallion quality.

I wouldn't hide him out behind the barn if I owned him. Nor would I show him around if my stallion sired him.

I don't care much for the nose draggers, but a proper quarter horse will naturally carry his head about wither height. You can't ride along in the chaparral looking for stray cattle if your horse has his head up in the air blocking your view. So they are bred to be low headed. Just not that low.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

malinda said:


> He's AQHA, not Paint. But, I agree, two weeks of riding is almost nothing. Certainly not "broke".


Oops, that's what happens when my stupid brain doesn't work correctly. LOL I like QHes and APHAs. This guy is pretty enough but doesn't make my heart go pitter patter.


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Eggzackly- who said he wasn't pretty? He is pretty and with proper training might make a good horse, but he isn't stallion quality.


Maybe that is why the seller mentions she will geld him for FREE, in the ad. She doesn't seem to think he is stallion quality either. I don't favor early gelding, myself. I like them to develop along the lines nature intended until they are two or three. Then, OFF with their nuts, lol.


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

oregon woodsmok said:


> I don't care much for the nose draggers, but a proper quarter horse will naturally carry his head about wither height. You can't ride along in the chaparral looking for stray cattle if your horse has his head up in the air blocking your view. So they are bred to be low headed. Just not that low.


Here's a youtube link to a bridleless WP class. No head snatching. I'm not seeing any clouds of dust being kicke up either. There is some four beating. I don't care for the fake tails that get kicked up between their hocks, obscuring the view of what their legs are doing. Makes it harder to really isolate each leg as it hits the ground with two pounds of three foot long hair swishing along between their legs as they jog/trot and lope/canter.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmgMqCBFQJE&feature=related[/ame]


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

malinda said:


> The original colt in question isn't a bad horse actually. I don't see any horrible conformation faults. The training he will get will decide what type of horse he will become.
> 
> He could grow up to look like this:
> 
> ...



Malinda, have you bred horses much over the years? I disagree with your post. The chesntut will NEVER look like the bottom horse, regardless of how it is trained. Neither will the HUS on top. The horse on the bottom will NEVER be made to travel like the red horse. Ever. Three different bred horses, for three different purposes, three different builds. Bone structure and muscle attachments and temperaments are unique to each type. Goes back to my earlier post, about AQHA becoming so specialized that their horses can't compete at a high level in more than one event. The bottom horse looks the least like mainstream quarter horses of the three, even though it looks the best able to use itself in a dressage arena. Not sure how well it could cut a cow, spin flat, work as a heel horse, or run poles. There are just so many specialties that no one horse can do it all. Training can do some to develop what their breeder put on the ground, but you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, even with dressage.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

malinda said:


> Take two similar QHs, the first one is constantly bumped in the mouth with a twisted wire bit, ridden in drawreins to keep him off of and behind the bit, punished the moment he raises his head, and drilled in endless circles to deteriorate his gaits into shuffling without a modicum of suspension in the trot or canter. The second one is introduced to rein contact early in his training, he accepts the bit and rider's hand like a good dance partner, allowing the rider to lead him along. He's allowed to actually use his body in a true trot, canter, and gallop. He raises his head and pricks his ears anytime there's a jump within his line of sight. He loves his job and you can tell he's a happy horse. These two horses, though the same breed, will look like completely different horses. It's all in how they're trained.





eggzackly said:


> Malinda, have you bred horses much over the years? I disagree with your post. The chesntut will NEVER look like the bottom horse, regardless of how it is trained. Neither will the HUS on top. The horse on the bottom will NEVER be made to travel like the red horse. Ever. Three different bred horses, for three different purposes, three different builds. Bone structure and muscle attachments and temperaments are unique to each type. Goes back to my earlier post, about AQHA becoming so specialized that their horses can't compete at a high level in more than one event. The bottom horse looks the least like mainstream quarter horses of the three, even though it looks the best able to use itself in a dressage arena. Not sure how well it could cut a cow, spin flat, work as a heel horse, or run poles. There are just so many specialties that no one horse can do it all. Training can do some to develop what their breeder put on the ground, but you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, even with dressage.


A horse bred for WP/HUS may never be a top level dressage horse or eventer and may not ever have the movement necessary for large hunter shows, but he _can_ be taught to use himself properly. It's not like WP horses naturally move in that horrible fashion, they're taught to do it.

The bottom horse is just as likely to be able to work cows and run poles as the top two.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

eggzackly said:


> Maybe that is why the seller mentions she will geld him for FREE, in the ad. She doesn't seem to think he is stallion quality either. I don't favor early gelding, myself. I like them to develop along the lines nature intended until they are two or three. Then, OFF with their nuts, lol.


Maybe you should read that ad again as the owner states she's not gelding him until March so she can use him to breed her two mares. And that he's covered mares in the past. To me that indicates she thinks he's stallion quality.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

eggzackly said:


> Maybe that is why the seller mentions she will geld him for FREE, in the ad. She doesn't seem to think he is stallion quality either. I don't favor early gelding, myself. I like them to develop along the lines nature intended until they are two or three. Then, OFF with their nuts, lol.


Wow. You sound amazingly like Onthespot, a former poster here. I think she was banned.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> Maybe you should read that ad again as the owner states she's not gelding him until March so she can use him to breed her two mares. And that he's covered mares in the past. To me that indicates she thinks he's stallion quality.


Either that, or she's aware that a big percentage of potential buyers are not looking for a stallion ... don't have the facilities, don't plan on breeding ... and while they are aware a 'good' stallion may well make an 'outstanding' gelding they don't want the hassle of getting him gelded themselves.

That's one of the issues I have with my two sportpony stallions ... I would continue to use them myself as stallions if the market/economy was better and I were still able to breed the number of foals I did 5 or 6 years ago. Reality is that lots of breeders are cutting back drastically so the chances of them going as a stallion is limited and they will be more likely to find a new home as a gelding.


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

Hi, OP here.

I'm feeling some tension here over this thread, and I'd like to say that creating tension was not my intent in posting about this horse.

Yes, I think he is pretty. Yes, I THINK his confirmation is decent (remember, I'm an old horse novice.) Along the way, I've learned that this particular horse's build may not suit a specific purpose. I've learned that good training, and good conditioning, along with better photos, will make this horse appear stronger and probably more sellable. I've also learned something about HUS.

I appreciate that folks are willing to share their experience and honest comments here. I appreciate when people are willing to help me learn, to see things through a new lens.

The Equine forum has a great bunch of people contributing, and I don't want to create any hard feelings between folks who've known each other a lot longer than I've been lurking around.

With that, I respectfully request that the Mod close this thread.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

I've often wondered why this forum has so few qh (or paint) followers. Maybe those that know something of the breed find other places to share their thoughts. I've been around this forum a long time and find it best to just keep quiet on most things. As a qh lover I just don't get a warm fuzzy feeling when I read threads such as these. I wonder how many posters on this forum are AQHA members or subscribers to the AQHA Journals. I suspect the number would be very limited.

That said, the bay horse may be a nice colt, or he may be three legged lame. It's impossible to tell much about any horse by picture alone. He's pretty enough for sure and may be worth a look to somebody. He definately has some nice wp breeding though I would test to verify that he is N/N.

QH's have come a long way since "Wimpy". The AQHA has grown to become the largest breed organization in the world. They are the largest donor to equine research projects and this is to the benefit of all horses and their caregivers. I don't show horses but I am proud to be a member of the AQHA and even more proud to ride quarter horses. 


Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

levi1739 said:


> I've often wondered why this forum has so few qh (or paint) followers. Maybe those that know something of the breed find other places to share their thoughts. I've been around this forum a long time and find it best to just keep quiet on most things. As a qh lover I just don't get a warm fuzzy feeling when I read threads such as these. I wonder how many posters on this forum are AQHA members or subscribers to the AQHA Journals. I suspect the number would be very limited.
> 
> That said, the bay horse may be a nice colt, or he may be three legged lame. It's impossible to tell much about any horse by picture alone. He's pretty enough for sure and may be worth a look to somebody. He definately has some nice wp breeding though I would test to verify that he is N/N.
> 
> ...


I _like_ Quarter Horses and I've owned a mess of them over the years, it's what people have done to them that I don't like. Many Quarter Horses are just a caricature of a once wonderful versatile breed. I don't just not like AQHA I _loathe_ them, along with the APHA and ApHC, for not containing the HYPP problem 30 years ago. It was allowed to permeate not only QH but so many other breeds and crosses as well all for the love of money.


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

levi1739 said:


> I've often wondered why this forum has so few qh (or paint) followers. Maybe those that know something of the breed find other places to share their thoughts. I've been around this forum a long time and find it best to just keep quiet on most things. As a qh lover I just don't get a warm fuzzy feeling when I read threads such as these. I wonder how many posters on this forum are AQHA members or subscribers to the AQHA Journals. I suspect the number would be very limited.
> 
> That said, the bay horse may be a nice colt, or he may be three legged lame. It's impossible to tell much about any horse by picture alone. He's pretty enough for sure and may be worth a look to somebody. He definately has some nice wp breeding though I would test to verify that he is N/N.
> 
> ...


I googled the horse's name and their site says he is N/N


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

Pixie, your posts on this thread were full of negative hyperbole and are abrasive in some lines, inaccurate and uninformed in others. Sorry if we agree to disagree, or if I posted info contrary to your opinion. That is what forums are all about. Differences of opinion. If it was a collection of people that all agreed with everything you said, it would be called FHOTD.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

eggzackly said:


> Is disagreeing with people like you a bannable offense, Miss Pixie?


What in the world are you talking about? :stars:


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

This thread has turned into a great example of how much horse people like to engage in arguments about the finer points of everything. I'm certainly guilty of it myself at times, so I see it and just nod and say "yep. that's horse people." lol

I expect a lively discussion about the merits or flaws of every photo ever presented here. That just how we all seem to roll. And I notice it gets more "lively" when the weather turns yucky.

Personally, I think the horse from the OP is pretty. Will he make much of himself? Who knows. But I'm a sucker for a long-legged bay horse.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

eggzackly said:


> Pixie, your posts on this thread were full of negative hyperbole and are abrasive in some lines, inaccurate and uninformed in others. Sorry if we agree to disagree, or if I posted info contrary to your opinion. That is what forums are all about. Differences of opinion. If it was a collection of people that all agreed with everything you said, it would be called FHOTD.


Again, what in the world are you talking about? FHOTD? So anything that isn't a western pleasure puke or a western pleasure puke in drag is fugly? :rotfl:


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

Keep on keeping on Pixie, your commentary is very truthful, helpful and inormative. You are funny, beautiful and a valued member of this community.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

eggzackly said:


> Keep on keeping on Pixie, your commentary is very truthful, helpful and inormative. You are funny, beautiful and a valued member of this community.


Why thank you, thankyouverymuch.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

Now, now. We should be able to engage in lively debate/discussion without making it personal :cowboy:


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I'm sorry if I contributed to thread drift, the original horse is pretty enough in his pictures to catch someone's eye, otherwise we really don't know much about him. 

Most of this thread is off into discussions about different aspects of horsemanship, breeds, etc. I am not a fan of the Western Pleasure style of training, it seems very unnatural to me. I do really like Quarter Horses, had a gem when I was a teenager, just loved that little horse. 

He was the bulldog style as we call 'em then, 14 3 hh, and cute as can be. He was heavy on his front and knew how to walk and canter in little circles when I got him. I spent a couple of years retraining him, using him in Pony Club and doing basic dressage with him. He really did change gaits, lighten up on the bit, reshape his underslung neck and become a great little horse. He was never a jumper, but would hop over little jumps under 3' willingly. He was reliable, sweet, fun and pretty. Nothing leggy about Snoose though! lol He was all heart. 

Other than that I've had TB, half Arab, grade etc. horses. My background is basic dressage and Pony Club. We lived where we had miles of trails to ride, so I spent hours just hacking around the trails, rode Western and English (but mostly English) and just had a great time doing it. I showed in little local shows in pretty much every class - was a blast to beat a fancy Arabian stallion in Road Hack with my little QH, cuz my boy did everything he was asked and did it well (even an extended trot!) and Mr Stud horse was naughty.  I showed in Training level Dressage (on my Anglo Arab), did Pony Club 3 day stuff and competed in endurance too. I was never part of the big competition scene though, just hung out with my mom and some friends and had a good time.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

You mean to tell me we're not supposed to have thread drift??


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

eggzackly said:


> Malinda, have you bred horses much over the years? I disagree with your post. The chesntut will NEVER look like the bottom horse, regardless of how it is trained. Neither will the HUS on top. The horse on the bottom will NEVER be made to travel like the red horse. Ever. Three different bred horses, for three different purposes, three different builds. Bone structure and muscle attachments and temperaments are unique to each type. Goes back to my earlier post, about AQHA becoming so specialized that their horses can't compete at a high level in more than one event. The bottom horse looks the least like mainstream quarter horses of the three, even though it looks the best able to use itself in a dressage arena. Not sure how well it could cut a cow, spin flat, work as a heel horse, or run poles. There are just so many specialties that no one horse can do it all. Training can do some to develop what their breeder put on the ground, but you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, even with dressage.


Yes, I have. Furthermore, I've been fully employed in the horse industry for 16+ years. Five days a week I talk with trainers and owners, I see their horses being trained, ridden, and shown, and often see these horses over a span of several years. I've shod many, many QHs that compete at Congress, I've shod Dressage horses who compete at Olympic levels, and I shoe for average horse owners who just enjoy their horses.

And I disagree with you.

Go back to my post saying that Dressage is NOT ABOUT HEADSET. It's about training the entire horse and rider. In just my local circle of Dressage friends, I have seen several QHs transform from a very WP/HUS-looking horse to a nicely muscled, round, and nice moving Dressage horse when correctly ridden and trained. Several people I know have taken former WP/HUS horses and now compete in Dressage and Eventing. And, I might add, they perform quite well.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Malinda - I haven't seen that extreme, but I do know that a year or so of dressage training really changed my little bulldog QH in his carriage, energy and shape. He was never going to be a high level dressage horse with his short little legs, but he was sure different and much prettier. When I got him, his trot was very hard and bouncy, after a couple of years he could collect, extend and smoothed out a lot. He didn't even know how to trot when I got him (he was about 8 yrs old). I never really did teach him to jog or do a slow lope... not my style. He was not the QH with some TB blood that had leg to work with. 

I can see the possibility of a horse that has been trained to be heavy on the front, downhill moving and has lot the arch of neck and over all carriage being changed to carry himself, get his rear underneath and round up and how the muscle changes really change the overall look and movement of the horse. Remuscling my little horse's neck was the biggest change, it was muscled on the underside and quite ugly and ended up low set, but arched, clean underneath, even the throatlatch changed shape. 

When I was showing dogs, I used that knowledge to improve style, carriage and movement on show dogs too. The right sort of exercise can really transform an animal.


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

It would be helpful to see before and after photos of the same horse, instead of comparing three different horses of three different types. 

I'm not a "headsetter" myself either. Takes at least a few years for horses to develop the topline musculature to carry themselves and us most comfortably while being asked to do things that nature never intended horses to do in the first place. That goes for all higher levels of competittion. There are no sacred cows as far as disciplines. None are free from high levels of rigorous physical stressors. Some horses stay sound, some don't. Some are brought back, some are not, in all disciplines. My point wasn't that not all horses are suited for dressage. My point was that the horses most suitable for dressage are the least likely to excell in Western Pleasure. That movement is highly selected and bred for, just as the movement and temperament and musculature is bred for in dressage. One shoe (horse) does not fit all disciplines. It is the rare exception to find a horse that can excell in more than just a few events, if not just one.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

wr said:


> That ad is a perfect example of how to not sell a horse. The owner goes on for paragraphs and offers very little important information. After reading the whole thing, I understand she's selling a pricey prospect and she thinks he's wonderful omits trivial details like age, genetic/bloodlines etc. Her photos aren't going to attact the people she's looking for either, one makes him look very narrow chested, the one that makes him look like he has decent chest, makes him look like he has no hip.


agreed entirely..ads like this I skip over..it isnt a forum post..its a SALE ad..people don't want to here how he's your baby..they want cold, solid facts and stats..there isnt even lineage listed for him or an age!


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Personally, I have enjoyed this thread. 

I am a QH fan. Both of my personal horses are QH. 

I once had the pleasure to ride a "certified" all-round QH mare. She was the old type too, big and square built. She was a beautiful black mare. They were so kind to saddle her up and let me ride her around the arena. I was probably about 13 and a beginner intermediate. It was rough ride! LOL! Because every little twitch of my hand or leg made the mare do something different, it was hysterical to watch I'm sure. I think she competed in some western events, some english events, and even some driving events. I couldn't tell you the particular events(dressage/jumping/etc), I didn't know what to ask or look for. But she had gathered enough AQHA points in multiple different areas to become an AQHA allround champ.

The horse in the ad is quite a handsome fellow. The ad is excessive, but seems to be truthful. He wouldn't be a horse I selected to breed, but then I like the more bulldog/ranch horse built horses myself. I don't think he's worth $4000, but that's a matter of personal opinion, not an insult to the horse.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

[[[......QH's have come a long way since "Wimpy"......]]]]]]]

Yes, I have a lifetime membership to the AQHA, and I would much rather own Wimpy than an awful lot of the horses I see today that are registered as Quarter Horses but look like third rate thoroughbred crossbreds. If I wanted a thoroughbred (and I do like them), I'd buy a good first rate thoroughbred, not try to turn a different breed into a thoroughbred.

Just to insult everyone equally, if I wanted a Saddlebred, I'd buy a Saddlebred instead of trying to convert a Morgan into one.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I keep thinking I really like Morgans, but I don't want a Saddlebred, I want an old fashioned Morgan. I hope that someday I'll be able to get another horse and will look for a Morgan that isn't hyper... I can hope! (I think Saddlebreds are pretty, but way too much horse for me at this time.)

I don't think there are many horse breeds that I don't like (can't think of one!), but I do really like a purebred to be a representative of the breed it's supposed to be.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

We might have come a long way since Wimpy but we also seemed to have lost sight of breed standards along the way.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

Not many horses that I wouldn't take in if the need arose. Sometimes pretty is as pretty does. My dearly departed Dutch Warmblood schoolmaster wasn't a "pretty" horse but he was beautiful to me and a wonderful teacher and friend. 

I'm no fan of backyard breeding, but I think sometimes we get carried away with analyzing faults and lose sight of the fact that horses are just awesome, magnificent creatures.

Even an ugly horse can give you a perfect shoulder to cry on and make your heart sing with a nicker.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

wr, AQHA breed standards might make an interesting topic, as would the rule book and how it has changed. 

Oregonwoodsmoke, I enjoyed your humor and hear what your saying but it is a bit generalized. It's pretty hard to think of a qh that doesn't have thoroughbred in it's breeding. I belive Wimpy was mostly TB himself (and from the pictures I've seen he had pretty small feet, lol) The topic of crossing tb to qh has been argued since the beginning of the AQHA. Even today the Racing people are seperate from the others in their publications and leadership. At one time they were two seperate associations. As in any organization, the members formed some type of compromise which govern the AQHA today. Guess the arguement will continue past my time.

I would like to hear some opinions of the influence and breeding of Three Bars on today's quarter horse? What do people think of a horse such as Rugged Lark? Zippo Pine Bar? Shining Spark? Discussions on those type subjects might be educational and informative for people interested in quarter horses (including the original poster". There has been some good stuff in this thread, but it's a bit hard to find amongst the clutter.

eggzackly, I enjoyed the bridless western pleasure. I enjoy watching good wp horses and can sure understand why they are so popular. "Slow is good", and very hard to achieve(even incorrectly).

Malinda, I agree that most horses can be trained to perform any discipline at some level. However, when you get to the top levels the horses natural ability may play a bigger role. When comparing qh's I don't think training can make Zippo bred pleasure horse spin or stop like a reining bred horse. 


Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

farmergirl said:


> Even an ugly horse can give you a perfect shoulder to cry on and make your heart sing with a nicker.


Very true ... and bottom line, I think this should probably be the first criteria for every horse owner!


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Levi, you mention Three Bars and it takes me way back... I'm no expert on QH history, but when I was a teenager, our neighbor had a Three Bars grandson that he bred. That was one gorgeous horse, I think his name was Steel Bars, he was a silvery blue roan. He had a wonderful calm sweet temperament and was absolutely eye candy, very QH in type. I remember the mares as looking like boring little horses and all of his babies were just like their father - stunning! I wish I knew more about the horse. He was one that really stood out in my mind, definitely QH type, heavy muscling, but not bulldog, very athletic looking. 

We bred our Anglo Arab to him. She was more TB than Arab in looks and I think we would have had a really nice hunter actually, as she was rather leggy. Unfortunately it didn't take, I was bummed.


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## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

GrannyCarol said:


> Levi, you mention Three Bars and it takes me way back... I'm no expert on QH history, but when I was a teenager, our neighbor had a Three Bars grandson that he bred. That was one gorgeous horse, I think his name was Steel Bars, he was a silvery blue roan. He had a wonderful calm sweet temperament and was absolutely eye candy, very QH in type. I remember the mares as looking like boring little horses and all of his babies were just like their father - stunning! I wish I knew more about the horse. He was one that really stood out in my mind, definitely QH type, heavy muscling, but not bulldog, very athletic looking.
> 
> We bred our Anglo Arab to him. She was more TB than Arab in looks and I think we would have had a really nice hunter actually, as she was rather leggy. Unfortunately it didn't take, I was bummed.


Here's a bit about three bars and his different owners. I love the stories of the old horsemen and their horses. 

http://www.circledhorses.com/three_bars_story.htm


Have fun, be safe

Jack


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## PNP Katahdins (Oct 28, 2008)

GrannyCarol said:


> I'm no expert on QH history, but when I was a teenager, our neighbor had a Three Bars grandson that he bred. That was one gorgeous horse, I think his name was Steel Bars, he was a silvery blue roan.


Is this the horse, or maybe a son of his? http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/steel+bars

Peg


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Wimpy P-1 Doesn't look like he had tiny feet based on the picture on this site: http://www.foundationhorses.com/pedigrees.aspx 

My favorite of the Quarter Horse legends will always be King P-234 (he's also listed on the site I linked along with other QH royality). He will always be the standard for conformation to me, plus he was athletic and passed that ability to his get.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Can't be the Steel Bars on the pedigree site, maybe one of his sons, because the horse next door was NOT black, but a beautiful silvery roan. Maybe Iron Bars? Something like that... he sure did sire halter horses though.

Edit: Well darn, Iron Bars was a chestnut! 

Maybe a sibling of theirs? They were both Three Bars sons... or more likely a son of one of them. Is there a progeny look up?

Another edit: This would have been in the late 60's if that helps, would be fun to figure out who he was!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

GrannyCarol said:


> Can't be the Steel Bars on the pedigree site, maybe one of his sons, because the horse next door was NOT black, but a beautiful silvery roan. Maybe Iron Bars? Something like that... he sure did sire halter horses though.
> 
> Edit: Well darn, Iron Bars was a chestnut!
> 
> ...


This is a roan Steel Bar son but born in '71 http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ind...ZLING+STEEL&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

That's the only son of Steel Bar that is listed as roan, plenty of no color and blacks listed tho.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Would a roan possibly be listed as a black? 

I dug around too a bit, but '71 is too late - the horse I knew was siring foals in '71 (and earlier). Oh well... its fun to think about it.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

GrannyCarol said:


> Would a roan possibly be listed as a black?
> 
> I dug around too a bit, but '71 is too late - the horse I knew was siring foals in '71 (and earlier). Oh well... its fun to think about it.


He could have been listed as black but roaning should be noticeable after the foal coat is shed. Any idea of his dam's line?


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

A good friend of mine in the 70s when I was breeding a few QHs was 'Pokey' Gregg ... her husband, Alex, had been an accountant for years for the King Ranch and when he retired, they moved to a ranch at Birney, MT and bred QHs. They actually had Peppy himself http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/peppy for several years and some of their original foundation mares were by Peppy. Pokey was widowed when I knew her, but still raising QHs and always had foundation type horses. She bred to Peppy San Badger twice that I know of and I bred one of my old cutting horse bred mares (Poco Bueno breeding) to one of her stallions.

We were breeding cutting/reining horses at the time and nearly all of our mares went back to Three Bars or Cody breeding ... Doc Bar and his sons were *the* cutting horses of the late 70s when we were active. Most of them smaller horses, very active and a lot of cow, although the mare we won the most with was a good sized mare, 15.2 or more, I think, a Zan Parr Bar daughter.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> He could have been listed as black but roaning should be noticeable after the foal coat is shed. Any idea of his dam's line?


No, it was a long time ago and I was a horse crazy teenager.  I obviously don't remember correctly what I do remember, which is kind of a bummer. I really liked that stud. His babies were pretty obviously roan by weaning.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Yes, he could have been born black and roaned out. That pedigree has Hancock in it and there is a lot of roaning in Hancock.

There are a lot of color errors on registration from people sending papers in within a couple of days of foaling and also from copying the outlines of the white markings instead of the shape of the pink skin under the white markings.


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## blink (May 26, 2015)

I know this thread is old but I stumbled on this thread. Dunkin, the colt that was the main focus of the thread and was highly debated over his stallion material. For fun I thought I would post pictures of him grown up. he didn't fill in totally until 6 years old. his foals are doing amazing things. I sold him for 6500 on a gelding contract for the simple fact I don't trust how people handle stallions often treating them horrible, no social interactions and such. so here since the original ad is gone are likely the pics I used and new pictures of him as well as (if they will fit) pictures of his babies. 1 is barrel racing and reining, 1 is winning in wp, hus, halter and showmanship(the bay pictured),1 is in lunge line and training western pleasure (the sorrel pictured) and he himself does wp but also enjoys hus and jumping.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

I can't see the links, they open up as unavailable, but I have a few QH runners/HUS that don't have huge hips or broad chests, not your "typical" AQHA look, but registered AQHA none-the-less. If the colt pictured is out of some of those lines, then he wouldn't have those "typical" QH looks that one associates most with his breed. Wish I could see the pics....

*****update! LOL, this is such an old thread! I see the pics in the last post of the bay, he is lovely. Glad he has done well


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## CountryMom22 (Nov 27, 2014)

Handsome boy, although I am a foundation QH lover and would like to see him more heavily muscled, and in the first pic his hooves look awfully small. Maybe it's the angle. Either way, the proof is in the pudding and if his get are performing well, then that tells the story.

Thanks for the pics...Sue


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

Thank you for the update. Still a good looking fellow!


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## blink (May 26, 2015)

His feet have gotten much wider. that first picture his ad picture he was 2 and a half years old. I am sad he never quite grew into his legs but its easy to see what he should have looked like all of his foals are or were 14.2 at a year. his oldest, Josie is 16 hands from a 15.2 hands mare. I think if he hadn't been so sick as a yearling he would have looked very different, I think that's why he looks immature and not quite filled out. It was funny he had so many people criticizing him until they were getting beat by his foals in Most events. So I get to laugh after they call to breed to him and politely tell them you snooze you lose. He was such a good boy too. I mean a week after being gelded he was being ridden by a young girl. the lady who bought him turn around and bought two of his other foals. I spoke to one of the ladies she bought her from and she paid and incredible price for them.


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