# Need a rifle for Deer



## kwagner21

I need advice. I need to get a rifle to hunt whitetail in NY state. the only thing I currently have is a 22mag, bolt action, and I love it. nice and accurate, not too load and not much kick. But you can't hunt deer with it. I'm looking for an affordable, comparable deer hunting gun. Any suggestions? (am also posting in hunting, not sure which one it should go in)


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## Pops2

start by reviewing the hunting regs so you know what you can disqualify. then go w/ a popular round for your area.


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## kwagner21

NYS is centerfire rifle for for deer. but I think most of the people I know go for the bigger the better mentality, which is why I'm asking. I hunt in the woods, I'm not taking shots at something a mile away. like I said, I just want something accurate, without too much kick.


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## Cabin Fever

You're gonna get about a dozen recommendations. So get ready!

I have hunted in the woods, all my life. Since I was 18yo, all I've ever deer hunted with is my Marlin 336 lever action in .30-30 caliber. It has not failed me. It is more accurate than I am. About 20 years ago, I put a scope on it. It is light and quick to aim.


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## kwagner21

how's the kick and noise on it? my husband thinks i'm nuts because when I shoot his 20ga I flinch from the noise. and I won't even fire his 12 ga after him and a few friends shot some 3 1/2" shells and walked away with bruises. Yes, I know those are shotguns but still, something I am concerned about. I would rather not jump and fall out of the treestand!! (yes I am a wuss, I admit it!)


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## Pops2

if centerfire 22 is legal then a 223 will do the job IF you are a good shot. your best choices are going to be bigger bores on the 223 case like the 6.8 spc, pistol caliber carbines like 357, 44, 45 lever actions and topping out on the 243 or 6mm or even the 6.5 swedish mauser round.


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## Cabin Fever

kwagner21 said:


> how's the kick and noise on it? my husband thinks i'm nuts because when I shoot his 20ga I flinch from the noise. and I won't even fire his 12 ga after him and a few friends shot some 3 1/2" shells and walked away with bruises. Yes, I know those are shotguns but still, something I am concerned about. I would rather not jump and fall out of the treestand!! (yes I am a wuss, I admit it!)


The very last thing you're even going to concern yourself with when you have a big buck in your sites is the noise and recoil from your hunting rifle....your mind will be elsewhere.


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## kwagner21

maybe so, but i tend to think too much while i'm sitting there waiting... I found meself doing that while bow hunting, and yesterday while I was in the tree stand I kept thinking how gun season is coming up and I have nothing to hunt with! Just didn't even know where to start.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

the best deal in new rifles is a savage axis , about 300 new , 350 with a scope , 243 would be a good choice of cal for a smaller person , a cousin swears by it for deer has probably shot hundreds of deer as he used to work as a crop damage hunter for the big orchards 
his gun of choice was and is a savage model 10 in 243 , he would shoot 20 deer a night some times , the orchard workers collected them up and took them home to eat.

the axis uses some model 10 parts and is very similar but has a easier safety now to use with gloves 

they are out of the box very accurate , 243 doesn't kick bad and their are even reduced recoil rounds for them for kids just starting to hunt 

223 would be another choice for even lighter recoil the axis is also available in 223 

my theory is that on deer 1000 foot pounds of energy is the cut off point , you should bring 1000 foot pounds of energy to the animal for a ethical kill , with a proper expanding bullet to get the job done this makes 223 a 100 yard gun , yes i know they go much further but just past 100 yards is where the energy drops , 30-30 is about 150 yards till if falls below 1k , 243 gets out to 200 yards over the 1k mark , and 30-06 gets out to 400 yards before dropping below the 1k of energy mark where it would also be beyond ethical for all but the very best marks person

this is my personal opinion and I realize these cartridges will kill far beyond the limits i set for my ethical shot 

I have yet to take a shot much over 100 yards any ways because of the terrain i hunt 

a semi auto also helps to damper some of the felt recoil , definitely put a recoil pad on , and cut the stock to the proper fit for you , fit has a lot to do with how you feel recoil.


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## kwagner21

thank you, that is way more info then i think anyone has given me before. it's strange, but everyone just has their favorite and i don't think anyone ever bothered to explain the shot distance differences to me before. Since I highly doubt I will ever be shooting farther then the 150-200 yard point, i guess that has me looking for 243 or 30-30. Thank you.


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## Bearfootfarm

> I just want something accurate, without too much kick.


A 243 ,308 or 7mm/08 would be perfect.

I personally would NOT get a 30-30, since it's realistically only a 100 yd gun, and won't be as accurate or as comfortable to shoot as something much better.

Why limit yourself to just a short range gun, when other cartridges will offer more options?


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## simi-steading

I'm a fan of 7mm Mausers.. and 8mm... A round you can shoot all day and not tear your shoulder up with, and very accurate with a lot of knockdown over a long range. I also have a thing for military rifles... They knew how to build them, and you can get some nice rifles for great prices.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

there are many many Chamberings about 150 are covered in one for my reloading manuals , and it lacks wild cats and obscure cartridges and some of the metric cartridges not common in the US 

I would let economics help you in your decision , look at the ammo shelf look at what is available at local stores and the price 243 is generally very available it is a common youth gun for deer in much of the US but definitely can get the job done 

the Remington in the green and yellow box the federals or the Winchester are good brands of ammo , see what is available and what is less available 

243 is a good round but obviously not the only round , what you should know is that 243 is a necked down 308 , many cartridges are based on 308 case ,22-250, 243 , 6mm - 284 , 6mm &244rem , 250 savage, 260 rem, 7mm-08, 300 savage , 308, 365 win and 358 win and 308 itself is a shortened 30-06 to reflect advancements in powder and to feed in a shorter action 

I won't even bother with all the cartridges made from 30-06 

needles to say that 30-06 is the parent to most modern non magnum cartridges either directly or by way of 308 

this gives a hole list of cartridges the same head , the head is the back of the cartridge opposite the barrel where the primer is located , this means by producing the same bolt face in a short and long bolt manufactures can make a short and a long and chamber each in a half dozen common cartridges and the only thing different is the barrel , half the time only the chamber cutting itself is different 


now you can begin to understand why everyone has their favorite , so many will do the same basic thing but may have a tiny edge over another in a specific characteristic , often it was an article they read in a sports magazine like fields and stream that sold them on that particular cartridge , some times it was what dad likes or grandpa , no one likes to be wrong i suppose , so in a way they are all right 

i just choose to pick things that are common so that i don't pay thru the nose for them, i am also perfectly happy to drive a ford or a chevy i need it to work not be anything special 

since recoil is a equation of weight of the projectile vs acceleration factored against the weight of the rifle and you your getting the benefit of a lighter projectile from 243 

savage happens to now make a axis youth chambered in 243 the stock is shorter , i would buy one of these if available or buy the regular and have a smith cut the stock and put a nice thick recoil pad on it for you fit plus a nice energy absorbing recoil pad can make a big difference 

wear ear plugs and muffs when sighting in , also wear your heavy hunting clothing to sight in, it all helps


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## Pops2

kwagner21 said:


> thank you, that is way more info then i think anyone has given me before. it's strange, but everyone just has their favorite and i don't think anyone ever bothered to explain the shot distance differences to me before. Since I highly doubt I will ever be shooting farther then the 150-200 yard point, i guess that has me looking for 243 or 30-30. Thank you.


all of that range stuff he just gave you & the 1000 ftlbs was made up by gun writers.
IF you do your part a 22 rimfire will drop a deer in it's tracks at 100 yards, BUT because most people do NOT practice enough to hit a silver dollar sized kill spot at 100 yards you step up to a caliber that will produce enough shock & blood loss to have the same effect. keep in mind some of the better shooters in the world have done things like dropping a mule deer buck at 600 yards w/ a 44 magnum pistol, or dropping bison at 500+ yards w/ a 50-90 sharps or dropping a pronghorn from 150 yards w/ a 357 pistol. a butt munching load of elk & deer have been killed at 200-300 yards using a 30-30. find what YOU are going to be comfortable shooting in terms of power, recoil & report (sound). then through practice figure out how far you can consistantly hit a fist & silver dollar sized kill spot. then develop the patience to pick those shots. and the MORE you learn about the game and remember to watch the wind, the shorter those shots are going to be. i haven't had a shot farther than about 20 yards in the last 15 years and the last one i shot at about 20 feet, wearing a blue shirt, no scent killing spray and sitting on the ground.


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## Silvercreek Farmer

I'd be happy with the Savage Axis in 223 for cheap practice and low recoil. If you think a 223 is too small for deer, go with a 308, still pretty cheap practice with ball ammo.


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## RonM

I have a 6MM , Remington's version of the 243 Win. it would be a good all around rifle for a lady as would a 30-30.......


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## unioncreek

Caliber depends on what kind of terrain your hunting in. Don't rule out the 30-30 I still hunt with one and its my weapon of choice when hunting in timber.

Bob


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## Wanderer0101

The .243 is good but I think the .260 Remington or .257 Roberts are better rounds over all. They all have low recoil and a mild report. My favorite is the .257 because it just seems to kill things but it may be easier to lay your hands on a .260. The Ruger M77 Compact in .260 is a very nice rifle as is the Savage Lightweight Hunter.


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## kwagner21

I'm starting to think that the first thing I will do is go into the local store and see what ammo they stock... then use that to narrow down the list and see people's comments here. It's looking like a few votes for 30-30 or a 243. That helps a lot. There are just too many choices when you first start.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Pops2 said:


> all of that range stuff he just gave you & the 1000 ftlbs was made up by gun writers.
> IF you do your part a 22 rimfire will drop a deer in it's tracks at 100 yards, BUT because most people do NOT practice enough to hit a silver dollar sized kill spot at 100 yards you step up to a caliber that will produce enough shock & blood loss to have the same effect. .



A 22lr will drop a deer at 100 yards if you hit that small kill spot 

problem is if hitting a silver dollar sized target was that easy in a wind , shooting offhand all my junior shooters would go 10x10 on rams that are about a soda can sized target at 100 meters 

but when the drop is larger than the target reading distance and wind become important if you miss the first ram your spotter can tell you were your hit was and corrections can be made , but a deer is not a stationary metal target at a fixed distance it is a moving target at an estimated distance 

Winchester specs a 40 gr prjectile shot from a 22lr starting at 1280fps falls about 3.5 inches at 100 yards while a 40 gr projectile of similar shape shot from a 22mag at 1900fps drops only 1.7 inches at 100 yards the increase of velocity flattens the trajectory and increases the energy carried 

this is why we step up to a caliber that will produce enough shock and blood loss so that the kill spot goes from a silver dollar to a dinner plate 

and the truth is almost any 22 or larger center fire rifle will get the job done inside 100 yards , where most shots are taken , why the majority of DNR agencies have precisely written that you must use a center fire rifle of 22 or larger caliber 

220 swift , 222rem , 223rem , 5.56, they all work they all also bring 1000fp of energy to the table 

this is were everyone has an opinion about the idea cartridge that they feel is the best , and they are all generally right because all bring that much or more energy to the table and have a relativity flat trajectory to 100 yards and most shots at deer are generally less than 100 yards or not that far over


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## kwagner21

so why would a center fire be better then a rim fire? I feel like I am missing something. It sounds like you are saying you can get the same caliber in center fire or rim fire, but then why is center okay and rim not? (I know this might be obvious to some people, but I am just trying to learn)


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## RonM

A rimfire like a 22 will injure the animal if not hit precisely......larger calibers have more energy to knock the animal off its feet and the bullet expands generating a larger kill zone....


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## kwagner21

ya, but unless I am misunderstanding there are some calibers that come in both rim fire and center fire. is there just always more propellant in center fires?


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## Bearfootfarm

> so why would a center fire be better then a rim fire?


Center fires are far more powerful.
A rimfire CAN kill a deer,, but its really foolish to suggest it be used intentionally for deer hunting.

You need a cartridge with enough power, and a* large enough projectile* to RELIABLY penetrate deep enough, and to carry enough energy to do enough damage to kill the animal quickly.

Ideally, you should have enougn power and bullet mass to shoot *completely through* a deer so as to get a good blood trail, since they rarely drop in their tracks, no matter how large the cartridge.

More bleeding comes from an* exit* wound than from an entrance wound.

I'd suggest finding *a RIFLE the fits you* first, and then choose a cartridge for that model, since realistically anything from a 243 on up will do the job, with *proper* shot placement


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## Bearfootfarm

kwagner21 said:


> ya, but unless I am misunderstanding there are some* calibers* that come in both rim fire and center fire. is there just always more propellant in center fires?


"Caliber" only tells you bullet diameter.
You need to compare *"cartridges",* which is the whole package

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/List_of_rifle_cartridges


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## simi-steading

So I take it most deer hunters don't go for head shots? No need to pass through then... It's no fun chasing deer all day..


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## Bearfootfarm

simi-steading said:


> So I take it most deer hunters don't go for head shots? No need to pass through then... It's no fun chasing deer all day..


Taking head shot is* not* a wise choice.
The brain isn't that large, and they can easily move their heads when you shoot, causing you to merely wound them.

The BEST shot to take is through the chest cavity.
If you have to "chase them all day", you made a POOR SHOT or used an inadequate weapon


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## Silvercreek Farmer

There are probably a hundred or more of caliber/rifle combinations that are suitable for deer. Go look around, come back and tell us what you see and like, and we'll give it the collective thumbs up or thumbs down for you.


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## kwagner21

ya, that's going to be what I wind up doing. I was just trying to narrow it down a little first.


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## Nimrod

This can be a very confusing subject for a newbie. The bottom line is that you want a clean kill on the animal. The rifles allowed for hunting in NY will all do this.

Other factors come in to play. How heavy is the gun? A heavier gun will kick less but you have to carry the weight around the woods. 

You will have to practice so you can make a clean kill. How much does the ammo cost? Can you afford the practice?

A particular caliber is available in many different loads and many different types and weights of bullets. The different loads produce different amounts of recoil so you can probably find one in the caliber you get that has recoil that you are comfortable with. There are some loads that a specific rifle will not shoot accuratly. Each rifle is different. You have to find the loads that your rifle shoots well and pick one. More practice and testing. Darn.

The more popular calibers have more different loads available, you can buy cartridges in any hardware or gun shop, they will be easier to find if the word ends, and the ammo makes better barter items. 

Get a rifle from a major manufacturer. They all make good, accurate rifles starting at $300 and up. Get a scope. A scoped rifle is easier to shoot accuratly at longer distances. The image is brighter through a scope when the light is low, like at dawn and dusk, so you can shoot better. Us old folks can't focus on the iron sights any more so we have to use a scope. You may be old yourself someday.

Everyone else gets to chime in on what you should get so here's my 2 cents worth. Get a 243. The cartridge is one of the most popular ones with all the benefits of that. A 243 can be used with a cartridge that you will like the recoil.The Remington 700 or a Savage bolt action with the accutrigger are good low end choices. If you want to spend a little more, check the pawn shops and gun stores for a used Browning A-bolt Medallion. This is a very pretty and accurate gun. Mine, in 30-06, cost $500.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

correct head shots are not advisable , your target on a head shot is about the size of a soft ball and it moves around 

I am not much a basketball fan , but i can recall in gym class coach telling us to watch the persons torso when playing man on man defence , because they can fake you by moving the ball or their head but they can't fake you if you watch their torso 

the chest cavity doesn't move unless the hole deer moves and a double lung hit is a very fatal shot the lungs fill the majority of the chest cavity giving you the best chance of a reliable hit every time 

if you could find a 44 rimfire sure you could use rim fire but since that cartridge has a collector value greater than a hole box of modern rifle cartridges and would be an antique , and not allowed under most states hunting regs there really is no point 

another sports comparison , if you hit a practice golf ball the kind made of plastic with all the holes in it woofle balls as they are called , you hit them with a full stroke all the same energy that you hit a normal golf ball , but the woofle ball is so light that it looses all that energy you transferred to it very quickly , it is also affected by the wind 


a very light bullet looses energy quickly 

22 rime fire suffers from both a light bullet and slow speed 

like a small hammer driving a nail , you don't drive a nail very far with a light hammer even though you can swing it faster , you just can't swing it fast enough to convert the speed into energy 
but if you make the hammer heavier and you don't have to swing it as fast to drive the nail further 
a medium weight hammer can harness both speed and weight and you can swing it all day this is the equivalent of the modern rifle cartridge

if the job is driving a 16 penny nail into a 2x4 a hammer between 16 and 28 ounces is ideal the lighter hammer in this range will drive the nail with a few more hits the heavier works faster but is only good if you are strong enough to use it 

rifle cartridges can be adjusted by using a proper weight bullet of a proper construction at appropriate velocity for the use the manufacturer indicates the intended use of the ammunition on the box and on their web site 

a bullet , the projectile can be and are constructed to do different things 
bullets are commonly designed to , stay stay together , expand some , expand rapidly , or fragment if they hit a hard surface 

fmj stays together it's primary uses are target , and military where rounds are meant to not expand 

soft point , hollow point , partialy jacketed soft or hollow point , are made to expand at a given speed and allow for addtional energy deposit and penitration 

varmint ammunition is designed to rapidly expand and deposit energy very quickly but not trying to give added penetration

here is a good place to compare amunition and bullet types 
http://www.winchester.com/Products/rifle-ammunition/Performance/Super-X-rifle/Pages/default.aspx

generally the newer expensive bonded controlled expansion ammo are unnecessary in most calibers for white tail deer 

soft point works just fine


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## lonelytree

It is easy. Got to WalMart. Price out 30-06, .308, .270, .280 then pick a gun that will shoot them. I suggest a Tikka T3. While the smaller round can kill anything if hit in the right spot, a 30-06 huts hard. Ammo is readily available and more reasonably priced.


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## kwagner21

see, now I was under the impression a 30-06 has a fair amount of kick to it.


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## Silvercreek Farmer

kwagner21 said:


> see, now I was under the impression a 30-06 has a fair amount of kick to it.


It is certainly a healthy amount, but nothing like the big magnum rifles. With a decent buttpad, an average weight rifle (not an ultralight model) an AVERAGE person should be able to shoot a couple boxes of 30-06 ammo without experiencing any real "pain", but the recoil is not insignificant, and if it causes you to flinch everytime you pull the trigger, your accuracy will be affected. A .308 is a shortened 30-06. It has _slightly_ less recoil, is cheaper to shoot, doesn't give up hardly anything in terms of performance, is readily available and more than enough for deer. It would be my choice over a 30-06.


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## Pops2

since you have already stated you're sensitive to recoil, and you need to practice to ensure a good shot at the ranges you plan to take them., STAY AWAY from everything on the 06 case except MAYBE the 25-06, on the 308 case you have the option of the 243, stepping dow to a centerfire 22 you have the 22-250 or the 223. the only 30 calibers i could reccomend w/ lower recoil are the 762X39 russian and the 30-30 (depending how recoil sensitive you are the 30-30 might be too much). all the pistol caliber carbines are great choices for the the ranges you're planning. best thing you could do is try shooting several different cartridges and find what you like. and keep in mind if you're an average size woman long action & the longer pull on them will be less comfortable as will adult size rifles. the pistol caliber carbines should be more comfortable as will the youth rifles in the smaller calibers like 223 & 243. but mostly you need to shoot a lot of different calibers & find what you like.


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## kwagner21

being 5'9" i don't usually have a problem with guns being too big. The few youth size pieces I have looked at feel way too small to me. Now I just have to get to the store and see what they have- thinking 243 or 30-30...


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## Silvercreek Farmer

kwagner21 said:


> being 5'9" i don't usually have a problem with guns being too big. The few youth size pieces I have looked at feel way too small to me. Now I just have to get to the store and see what they have- thinking 243 or 30-30...


Either would probably be just fine. Both calibers have killed a heap o' deer. The 243 would be flatter shooting which would make a shot out past 150 yards easier if you ever find yourself in that situation, and the 30-30 would have the lever-action cowboy shooting fun aspect for recreational shooting.


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## lonelytree

I would not go under a .270 unless your deer are small. A friend just got a caribou with a .270. One shot. I know guys that hunt elk with .243. They do great, but they also shoot hundreds of rounds a year to do it.


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## Pops2

lonelytree said:


> I would not go under a .270 unless your deer are small. A friend just got a caribou with a .270. One shot. I know guys that hunt elk with .243. They do great, but they also shoot hundreds of rounds a year to do it.


 i would also bet they wait for the shot they know they can make. guys like that could kill a polar bear w/ a 22.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

lonelytree said:


> I would not go under a .270 unless your deer are small. A friend just got a caribou with a .270. One shot. I know guys that hunt elk with .243. They do great, but they also shoot hundreds of rounds a year to do it.


really its the difference between a 100gr bullet going 2900fps and a 130 gr bullet going 3000 fps 

not sure what goes in alaska but in the upper Midwest thousands of kids and adults take deer with a 243 every year and don't feel under gunned 

243 is a very popular kids deer gun here , but plenty of adults use them also with good results good for the recoil sensitive 

and you can buy them at any walmart almost as easy to find as 308 and 30-06


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## zant

I prefer a .308 myself....but my old Idaho ******* buddy has plenty of mounts/pix of many dead elk,bear and deer-all with a .243...shot placement is far more important than caliber.


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## RonM

I use a .308 will take anything in the lower 48, since you are a lady I think the 243 is perfect for you......it wont tear off your shoulder each time, neither will a 308, When you shoot at a deer go for the heart-lung area, no head shots....


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## tgmr05

.243 is a great choice, so is a 7mm-08. The .243 is more common, a plus for finding ammunition. If your deer get large, the larger 7mm would be a plus, but not exactly necessary.


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## simi-steading

Glad I'm not the only 7mm fan.. The 7x57 round I like is a fantastic round, but it can also be harder to get a hold of, and a little more expensive because of that. 

It's dropped many an elephant too..


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## Pops2

simi-steading said:


> Glad I'm not the only 7mm fan.. The 7x57 round I like is a fantastic round, but it can also be harder to get a hold of, and a little more expensive because of that.
> 
> It's dropped many an elephant too..


the 6.5 swedish mauser round is extremely good for what the OP wants but it's soo hard to find good ammo w/o paying an arm & a leg


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## Bearfootfarm

kwagner21 said:


> see, now I was under the impression a 30-06 has a fair amount of kick to it.


It does have quite a bit.
You don't really *need* that much power for deer

I think you'll be happiest with a 243, and you can always go bigger AFTER you get some experience


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## simi-steading

30-06 has a lot of kick... I can shoot 4 or 5 boxes of 12 gauge in a day easy.. I can't shoot much more than a box, MAYBE two depending on the gun of 30-06.... 

The 30-06 was based on the 7x57 from my understanding, but I can shoot those all day long.. Enough bang to put a stupid grin on your face, but little enough to make you want to do it again..


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

it has more to do with the gun the guns weight and action type . i could shoot my semi auto 30-06 for several boxes of ammo but it is fairly heavy and some of the recoil is taken up by the action 

my 12 ga that i shoot slugs out of has a hard plastc but plate , but it is a remingtion 1100 and the action and weight takes up much of the recoil 

my brother has some light weight 12 ga shotguns even as auto loaders with ruber but pads they just beat me up they feel like a toy and are easy to carry all day long , but sit down at a bench to sight in and they beat the tar out of you 

I started hunting with a Remington 1100LT 20 ga , an excellent choice for any youngster or recoil sensitive person the stock was short and i was already fairly tall at 12 so dad added a 1 1/2 inch big soft recoil pad to it to make it the right length 

you might guess that I do/did most of my hunting in a shotgun only area , it was just a few years ago they open most of the state back up to rifle after years of shotgun only


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## wy_white_wolf

I'm one that has used a 243 for about everything. Turkey, Antilope, Deer (both whitetail and muley), and Elk. First starting with a Rem 788 at 11. Now I use a Rem 700 ADL and my nephews use the old 788. For a first gun for deer I don't think you could find a better caliber.

For shot placement turkeys are a head shot with a 70 to 80 grain bullet. Yes it takes lots of practice. 

Antilope are a chest cavity with a 85 to 90 grain. You can use heavier but if you get a close range shot a 100 grain can go straight through with very little damage. It once took me 3 shots to drop one at about 40 yards. All three bullets hit a quarter size area but went right threw without much damage.

Deer,I use a 100 grain in the chest cavity. A real big muley it is a little small in the chest but I haven't lost one yet.

Elk, I have some 107 grain reloads. They make the ADL kick alot harder but has alot more killing power. If a short shot (under about 200yds) I'll take a chest cavity shot, but also reload quickly in case it doesn't do the gob. For a longer shot (up to about 400yds) I'll aim for the mid to upper neck. 3 things to hit there that'll put one down, jugular vein, windpipe, or spinal column. Even if you slightly miss any of the 3 it seems that the pain must be enough that they can't hold there head up. Elk don't seem to run much with there head hanging low.

I do now have a 7mm mag that I use for Elk as with aging my shot placement isn't near as tight as it used to be. But maybe looking to trade it for something with a little less recoil.

WWW


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## Space Cowboy

If you are in medium to heavy woods, I would agree with Cabin Fever. A 30-30 is best. I've used it for many decades. If you have to shoot longer than 100yds, a Savage 30-06 might be better. The 30-30 can come in different "strengths". Using a 150 grain bullet in 30-30 won't be bad at all. When you go to the higher grains (180 and higher), the "kick" will be more. Plus they are fun to shoot......

SC


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## Turtlehill

I hear folks say a 30-30 is a 100 yard rifle. I shoot 200 yards often , deer go right down. Thats with Remington Core-lokt 150 gr . Hornady Leverevolution will reach out to 300 yards.


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## wogglebug

I would really recommend the .243 (which is 6mm). If I could only have one centrefire rifle, this would be it. It's not up for grizzly, moose or big elk unless you can do those silver-dollar shots and guarantee the animal won't move between when you decide to pull the trigger and when the bullet gets there, but anything else - yes. 

And it's versatile. It will cover big game and varmints. Actually, it will hold up to deliver close to 1,000 ft pds of energy (just over or under) at 400 yards for all but the lightest varmint bullets or blunt-profile high-drag bullets. At the same time, you can reach out and caress a rabbit or woodchuck to way out there with a head shot that will leave the body undamaged.

The 30-30 is a great cartridge in its class but that class is bigger game at short ranges. The .243 can do that too. The 30-30 is not as versatile as the .243.


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## Pops2

Turtlehill said:


> I hear folks say a 30-30 is a 100 yard rifle. I shoot 200 yards often , deer go right down. Thats with Remington Core-lokt 150 gr . Hornady Leverevolution will reach out to 300 yards.


people believe the gun writer 1000 ft lbs stuff. which is probably true if you take poor shots, but if you do your part & put the bullet where it needs to be most any centerfire rifle will do for several hundred yards.


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## lonelytree

If you are off just a hair, sometimes a little extra bullet will get you a follow up shot to anchor the animal.


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## Bearfootfarm

> I hear folks say a 30-30 is a 100 yard rifle. I shoot 200 yards often , deer go right down. Thats with Remington Core-lokt 150 gr . Hornady Leverevolution will reach out to 300 yards.


I hear those *claims* a LOT, but reality is the* ballistics* don't fit the theories.
A 30-30 Zeroed at 100 yds will have *over 24" drop* at 300 yds 

You might get LUCKY and lob one in, but it's still* not* a good choice for anything past 150 yds at the most

Even the Leverevolution drops 12" at 300, when sighted 3"high at 100.


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## Pops2

Bearfootfarm said:


> I hear those *claims* a LOT, but reality is the* ballistics* don't fit the theories.
> A 30-30 Zeroed at 100 yds will have *over 24" drop* at 300 yds
> 
> You might get LUCKY and lob one in, but it's still* not* a good choice for anything past 150 yds at the most
> 
> Even the Leverevolution drops 12" at 300, when sighted 3"high at 100.


billy dixon dropped a comanche at 1000 yards w/ a sharps and it's estimated he aimed about 10-12 ft high.
i can't remember who said it, but it's been said beware the man who owns only one gun for he likely knows how to use it. some people w/ enough experience know how much kentucky windage to use on their rifle.


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## zant

A famous old PH in the 50-60s used a Swedish Mauser 6.5x55 to cull over 300 elephants..Thank God neither he nor the elephants knew it could'nt be done


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

and the longest kill ever came at 2500 yards , but the sniper said it wasn't the first shot , he basically walked the shots in , no one remembers all the misses only the spectacular hits


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## OH Boy

Get a .243 or .270, you can get ammo for these everywhere.


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## Bearfootfarm

> billy dixon dropped a comanche at *1000 yards* w/ a sharps and it's estimated he aimed about 10-12 ft high.


That's all well and good, but has little to do with the *best choice* for a hunting set up for* most* people.

Elmer Keith could do that sort of thing with a 44 Magnum *revolver*


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## buckskinner

Glad to see someone say that the .30-30 is not just a 100yd rifle. I've shot plenty of deer and even a pronghorn at 250 yards. Almost all DRT or at most move 30 yards or so. I can use a 7mag, .270, or 45-70, but I almost always hunt with an H&R single shot .30-30 with leverevoulation ammo sighted 3" high at 100 yards. So far I've shot 4 this year and 3 dropped and 1 went about 25 yards. IMHO the Handi Rifle or the Axis is an inexpensive choice in whatever cal. you chose.


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## Pops2

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's all well and good, but has little to do with the *best choice* for a hunting set up for* most* people.
> 
> Elmer Keith could do that sort of thing with a 44 Magnum *revolver*


the point is that most best choices per the gun rags are arbitrary & not necessarily a good fit for kids, the average woman or anyone sensitive to recoil. per the gun rag 1000 ft lbs, the 357 & 44 mag from a pistol on hornady's ballistic chart is inadequate *AT THE MUZZLE*. that's right according to the ballistics chart & the 1000 ft lb minimum putting your 44 revolver against the deer's body isn't enough ti ensure a clean kill.
the most important aspect of a clean kill is accuracy accuracy accuracy. so newbies should look for what is going to be most comfortable. if it's comfortable they'll shoot more. more shooting means more familiarity w/ trajectory. all that means more accuracy in the woods.
billy dixon nailed that comanche at adobe walls w/the first shot. he did that because he shot hundreds upon hundreds of bison and KNEW his weapon & the trajectory of the round.
heck skip the nonsense & get a 416 barret and aim for the whole animal. any hit anywhere that actually enter's flesh will likely kill it. hit the leg & cut off the foot the bone fragments will act like buckshot to the gut. sounds silly like this, but when the gun rags preach minimum ft lbs & minute of pie plate, they are basically teaching a scaled down concept to newbies. so they then go out and buy an overpowering rifle (usually a wonder mag) and pop it off on a paper plate at 50 yards w/ a 24X scope and because they can hold a 6 inch group think they're ready for elk at 500 yards because the charts say they only need to hold 6 or 10 inches high. instead they should be stressing accuracy and pointing out that most any gun will work if the shooter does their part. 
i stopped going to a UT hunting forum because MOST of the hosebags considered it okay that some guy shot, found blood & lost 2 or 3 elk before recovering the last one. but because i took hogs & carolina whitetails w/ dogs & a knife (never lost one i knifed i might add) i was the scumbag barely a step up a from a pedophile.
i understand you're not saying accuracy doesn't matter, but the implication is that if a shooter uses a round at least this powerful they don't have to be minute of silver dollar and can get away w/ minute of paper plate.


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## Pops2

buckskinner said:


> Glad to see someone say that the .30-30 is not just a 100yd rifle. I've shot plenty of deer and even a pronghorn at 250 yards. Almost all DRT or at most move 30 yards or so. I can use a 7mag, .270, or 45-70, but I almost always hunt with an H&R single shot .30-30 with leverevoulation ammo sighted 3" high at 100 yards. So far I've shot 4 this year and 3 dropped and 1 went about 25 yards. IMHO the Handi Rifle or the Axis is an inexpensive choice in whatever cal. you chose.


how much shooting do you do w/ that particular rifle?


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## zant

Opening day tomorrow and I'm hoping my 6.5x06(100gr Nosler at 3200)is able to kill a deer.Maybe I should bring the Ruger#1 in .458 just in case


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## simi-steading

zant said:


> .Maybe I should bring the Ruger#1 in .458 just in case


LOL.. you're not wanting to eat that deer are you?


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## wogglebug

Know your state laws:
It's worth considering that some states have made it law that deer-shooters must use something that delivers at least 1,000 foot-pounds, and is at least .24 calibre (i.e. no pistol calibre smaller than .44 Magnum, no .30 M1 Carbine, and at least .243 rifle - not .223). Pistol calibre or .223, either has other advantages, particularly being easy to shoot, and uses only a few resources to reload cartridges if you end up going that way, but both still have significant disadvantages.

A good hunting round starts off at around half-a-mile a second, then slows down rapidly, so it takes _at least_ half a second to travel 440 yards.
60 miles per hour is 88 feet per second, so that means at a fast walk for a man a deer moves half its body length in half a second. A deer that just decides to start walking is half gone, and a deer that startles into a jump start is well gone, by the time a bullet travels a quarter of a mile. That's not even taking into account the time it takes you to make up your mind to shoot, then translate the decision into muscle movement of your trigger finger. You'd better be sure of your shot AND THE EFFECTIVENESS OF YOUR AMMUNITION before you try it at that range, or it's cruel to the deer and wasteful for you.


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## buckskinner

Pops2, I get your point or what your asking, and yes I do shoot it a lot. It's a short "Handi" rifle and that's what I'd rather use. So yes I do know just where it shoots and how it shoots very well. Most would not be willing to do this and for them they might not be able to make the shots that I can with the .30-30. So for many this may not be "their" cartridge. I just hate to hear them say a .30-30 is a 100yd. gun.


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## MountainCat

Cabin Fever said:


> You're gonna get about a dozen recommendations. So get ready!
> 
> I have hunted in the woods, all my life. Since I was 18yo, all I've ever deer hunted with is my Marlin 336 lever action in .30-30 caliber. It has not failed me. It is more accurate than I am. About 20 years ago, I put a scope on it. It is light and quick to aim.


I love this gun! It's the first rifle I've bought, and we're going to be using it for deer hunting here in WV. I recommend it to everyone I know.


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## Pops2

buckskinner said:


> Pops2, I get your point or what your asking, and yes I do shoot it a lot. It's a short "Handi" rifle and that's what I'd rather use. So yes I do know just where it shoots and how it shoots very well. Most would not be willing to do this and for them they might not be able to make the shots that I can with the .30-30. So for many this may not be "their" cartridge. I just hate to hear them say a .30-30 is a 100yd. gun.


i kind of figured that you shot it a lot. but realisically if a guy is out of shape & out of practice and shakes like an epilectic a benchrest rifle isn't going to do him any good. and frankly MOST "hunters" don't shoot near enough & they have crappy technique. the high quality of modern rifles & optics saves their mediocre butts. i can't begin to count the number of "hunting" Marines that shot pizza box (barely that even) and try to tell me how they'd shoot expert if they had their 7 Mag w/ 12X leopold. i have considered getting one of the handirifles, it just seems like it would be comfortable to pack around.


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## BACOG

kwagner21 said:


> I need advice. I need to get a rifle to hunt whitetail in NY state.


When advising someone to get a rifle I like to know what their recoil tolerance is. If the biggest they have shot is the .22 rf then it becomes more difficult. Some suggestions if I may.

1. If you freinds & aquaintences have guns try to fire as many different ones a possible to see what you can tolerate. Make a list of those guns.

2. Take said list to where you would buy ammo and compare prices and availability. Cross off the ones from your list that are either too expensive or harder to obtain.

3. Somwhere on the boiled down list is the one you need. Hopefully it will be something like a .270 Win. Ammo is available anywhere. Recoil is modest & it will take anything you would want to hunt. I killed my last elk with one (one shot by the way).

The .270 is generally my answer for someone's first rifle. The .243 is not. Before people get their bowels in an uproar I will explain. I have killed a boatload of deer and antelope with it and I love the cartridge. But I have been hunting for quite a few years and have used the round a lot. 

The .243 is a more specialized round and has less margin for error. It makes a smaller hole going in and when it does exit it makes a smaller hole. There by making a harder blood trail to follow. If an animal isn't DRT I like a good blood trail.


If you choose a .243 or any other round for that matter I have just 3 words for you. PRACTISE, PRACTISE, PRACTISE. The more you know your rifle & cartridge the better hunter you will be. 

Now for my soap box. Like I said the more you practise the better you will be. But that can be cost prohibitive. A solution to that is learn to reload your ammo. Generally I can load 100 for what it costs for 40 rounds. Thereby enabling more practise. A reasonably priced reloading kit can be obtained from places like e-Bay or Wally World. Even if you don't choose to reload save your brass. Someone can use it somewhere down the line.


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## kwagner21

I actually had a chance to shoot a friend's 243 today. little load, but not too much of a kick. I liked it. But I also fired a 20 ga shotgun with 3" slugs and found it had way too much kick for me. my husband said he didnt' even feel it. now i really feel like a wuss.


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## Bearfootfarm

> my husband said he *didnt' even feel it*


Keep in mind he probably lied to look cool 

If the shotgun didn't FIT *you*, or your stance is incorrect, it will feel like it kicks more.
Same with a rifle:

How to Hold a Rifle - Rifle Shooting Technique

Rifle Fundamentals Page


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## Old John

In Indiana, because of the population density and flat terrain, until recently, only shotguns with slugs were allowed for whitetail deer. Rifle calibers are Not Allowed, for shooting anything even now.
I think they opened Deer hunting up to big bore handguns and pistol caliber carbines at about the same time several years ago. I believe the calibers start at .357 magnum and heavier.
And there is a "too short, length limit on the cartridges, too. No .45 acp guns are allowed.
I know a fellow who uses a Winchester carbine in .45 Colt to get his deer, every year.
But, I think .44 magnum and .454 are more the norm.
It's the law........


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## tarbe

Pops2 said:


> shot pizza box (barely that even)




Translation: Barely qualified Marksman (the lowest level of qual in the USMC)


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## Silvercreek Farmer

kwagner21 said:


> I actually had a chance to shoot a friend's 243 today. little load, but not too much of a kick. I liked it. But I also fired a 20 ga shotgun with 3" slugs and found it had way too much kick for me. my husband said he didnt' even feel it. now i really feel like a wuss.


A 20 gauge with a 3 inch slug is pretty much maximum recoil for a 20 gauge, especially a lightweight single shot. A light game/target load out of a heavier 2 barrel (over under or side by side), pump, or semi auto would be much more comfortable to shoot. Small women and 12 year olds routinely shoot several boxes of shells with no ill effects at our local trap range.


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## Wintergrower_OH

Most of suggestion are wide open terrain and long range shooting or small game (i.e vermit) . 6 mm , 260 or 257 roberts are your best bet . You also have to think resell down the line . Go to any gun show you find out that the 7mm , 30-06 don't sell very well . Not that they aren't good rifle , just not allot of people shooting with them . Put the big dollar on a scope . Don't get the lower end price rifle or super high price . Having a accurate gun from the get go is important . Don't go for the wildcat ammo or odd ammo rifle that don't have allot of people using them . Get to know what grain bullet to use and what kind of damage it might do .


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## wogglebug

I've put this up somewhere else today, but I'll copy it here as well:

One more thing: fit of a long arm is critical for smaller statured people. If you get a shot gun that's too big, you'll end up crawling down the stock to get to the trigger. you won't still have the stock properly nestled into your shoulder, and the recoil will get the gun moving before it HITS you, possibly all concentrated into just one pointy corner of the butt. What you need is to hold the gun firmly (not tightly) so that you and it are a single unit, the recoil has a lot more mass to push, and it can't get the gun moving independently.

Simple acid test. Bend your arm with elbow at right angles, either at waist level or hand-up at shoulder level. Hold firearm with butt nestled in the bend of your elbow, pointing straight out past your hand. If your trigger finger is at the right level to easily and properly activate the trigger, the firearm fits you. For many women, they need a youth-sized stock to achieve this. "Crawling the stock" to get to the trigger on something that doesn't fit will only get you beat up.There's an awful lot of women who shoot shotgun competitively, dozens or even hundreds of shots day after day, and a 12 gauge suits them fine, but they make sure it fits them.


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## Gary in ohio

i am stuck in ohio.. Shotguns with deer slugs only..


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## wannabechef

I suggest a .308, its NATO, ammo is less expensive due to the amount of weapons that use it. A 308 can take any game animal in North America with confidence.


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## diamondtim

Get a .243. A shorter woman in our hunting party is deadly with one. She gets meat if she sees it. You couldn't pry that gun out of that girl's hands. It's a necked down .308 and has manageable recoil for younger shooters and women.


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## wannabechef

diamondtim said:


> Get a .243. A shorter woman in our hunting party is deadly with one. She gets meat if she sees it. You couldn't pry that gun out of that girl's hands. It's a necked down .308 and has manageable recoil for younger shooters and women.


.243 is a good round...not as ballistically stable as a 30 cal but pretty good just the same. I would still choose a 308 based on wide range of ammo and the info out there for reduced recoil loads (if you ever reload like me).


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## wildcat6

223, 243, or 30-30 would do everything you need it to for a deer. It all depends on how big your budget is for a gun.


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## poorboy

I'd make it a 7mm08, reason being you get a good flat trajectory, low recoil. and it's enough gun to take West ,Elk Hunting, if ever the opportunity came up..Very low recoil with the 120 grain bullets...More oomphhh with the 140 grain bullets...It's a little big for varmints, just right for whitetail, o.k. for Elk.. I have a 257 Roberts that I hunt with..But...someday it's gonna be replaced by a 7mm08..


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## Silvercreek Farmer

Well, didja get something? Deer season is well underway in most places, or even over...


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## zant

Well,I decided I need a dedicated deer rifle-I'm going with a Savage 110 in .308 and will pick up a 7/08 barrel to play with.Something light with a 20" barrel,syn stock,small scope-3x9...tired of humping HBs with massive scopes around the woods....or maybe I'll just buy a rifle bearer when the economy tanks


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## Rollochrome

Remington 700 in 30-06


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

zant said:


> Well,I decided I need a dedicated deer rifle-I'm going with a Savage 110 in .308 and will pick up a 7/08 barrel to play with.Something light with a 20" barrel,syn stock,small scope-3x9...tired of humping HBs with massive scopes around the woods....or maybe I'll just buy a rifle bearer when the economy tanks


Pick up a 358 winchester barrel for that also , so you can play with the 35cal cast 

nikons 2x7 prostaff has done me very well for inclose and shots out as far as i can see a deer in the woods 150 yards max
makes for a bit smaller scope


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## Bearfootfarm

> in .308 and will pick up a 7/08 barrel


Be *VERY careful* with two cartridges so nearly identical


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## zant

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> Pick up a 358 winchester barrel for that also , so you can play with the 35cal cast
> 
> nikons 2x7 prostaff has dome me very well for inclose and shots out as far as i can see a deer in the woods 150 yards max
> makes for a bit smaller scope


Good idea on .358...they're just a resized .308?? Savage barrels are real easy to change,wrench is fairly cheap and go/nogo can be at gun shows.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

yes just sized up .308 they make an excellent cast round , from all my research , wish i could say i had one 

midway has the kit with gauges for 199 

then you can use everything from the 105gr with a small charge of pistol powder for plinkers and small game . all the way up to 250gr cast at 2400 fps 

158gr gas checked round flats at 2k , that would be interesting


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## tarbe

/\

The .358 Winchester is one of the best cartridges to never attain "sainthood".

A good .358 with the wonderful 200gr Remington Corelokt at about 2,300 - 2,400 fps (a mild load) is a killer round for 95% of all our whitetail hunting.

If you need a higher ballistic coefficient for flatter trajectory, find some 225gr Ballistic Tips!

Tim


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## wannabechef

zant said:


> Well,I decided I need a dedicated deer rifle-I'm going with a Savage 110 in .308 and will pick up a 7/08 barrel to play with.Something light with a 20" barrel,syn stock,small scope-3x9...tired of humping HBs with massive scopes around the woods....or maybe I'll just buy a rifle bearer when the economy tanks


You will be happy with the 110 in .308


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## ozarkchaz

Though probably already mentioned, a .308 caliber rifle will do the trick


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## Kirby Greene MscD

First of all, do you have to use a shotgun for deer where you hunt? Some areas require it. If not, I prefer a rifle. I favor a 7mm since most deer rifles are either an 30.06 or it's shortened case version of the .308 Win.- Both will kill nicely; it's just that IF you are choosing the caliber, it's bigger than needed. 
The other popular round is the .243 Win. Perhaps better if you also want to varmint hunt a lot. Not as good for hunting heavy cover. That's where the 7mm bullets shine - 100 grain bullets for critters; 160 for heavy cover, and the 140 grain for good, long range accuracy with very little recoil!
A bolt-action rifle is accurate and can use any different sights/scopes. I bought a 7mm 08 twenty years ago and it has brought down the deer EVERY time with one shot... Without tearing up the meat.
If you must use a shotgun, a 12 gauge is hard to beat. A pump action is reliable and less costly than some other types.

the Old Buck


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## Edz

In Maine (where I reside) .22mag is legal for deer, though I would not use it. I would do as other said and check local regs. Some parts pf NYS are shotgun only. Even here in Maine, in some more populated areas they have restricted it to shotgun only. Partly for that reason I just picked up a Remington 870 Wingmaster with a rifle sighted slug bbl and a weaver scope. Don't need to use shotgun here yet, but it's coming I am sure!

edz


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## metzgermeister

A Czech made 8mm Mauser can be had at around $250. They pack plenty of power, wont rip your shoulder out, cock-on-open bolt cycles very smoothly, are very accurate, reliable and plain fun to shoot. 

Fun fact, Czech made Mauser rifles were the one foreign made rifle that the Germans accepted as being to their rigid quality standards and allowed to be placed into the hands of German soldiers. Just as good as a K98 for a fraction of the price and just as much history. Save a piece of military history, hunt with a Mauser. You won't be disappointed.


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