# Great Pyrenees M/ Rat terrier F mating?



## Maria (Apr 24, 2003)

My rat terrier has gone into heat and I've been very careful about keeping her in the kennel, away from our 8 month old Great Pyrenees male. Last night, however, she managed to find a place in the chain link that wasn't attached to the metal bottom quite well enough and got out. So, she was exposed to the GP male for most of the night, I assume.

She's a fairly big rat terrier, about 30 lbs, but the GP pup is about 80 lbs or more. She was avoiding him this morning- certainly not standing for him. He was very rough with her whenever she came within reach- acting like he was going to swallow her whole!

Her female parts don't seem any different. It seems to me that if she'd mated with him she might be showing some evidence of damage, with the size differential, but I don't know.

What I'm wondering is this- if she is pregnant, would giant pups kill her? Or do the puppies adjust to the size of the mother? And if she is bred, is there anything the vet could do to terminate the pregnancy?

And please don't yell at me about responsible pet ownership and getting them both neutered. I'm waiting until the male is full grown because I want to make sure his hips grow right. I had a giant breed before neutered young and hip dysplasia is a sad, sad thing. I'm doing everything I can to make sure this pup grows up sound. And that includes higher testosterone levels during growth stage.

And the rat terrier female was scheduled for a spay, but started going into heat before it could be done, so we decided to wait through this one just to be safe. We bought one of those big chain link kennels just so she'd be safe. Unfortunately, it wasn't made as well as it appeared, and she escaped.

Does anyone have an experience with giant male mating with a small female?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Yes, there can be problems. 
But, no worries, if you're going to spay her once she's out of heat, go on and do it. It will be fine.
While there is a mismating shot they can get, any vet will likely recommend spaying rather then the shot, and will definitely recommend spaying before taking a risk with giant puppies.


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## Maria (Apr 24, 2003)

If spaying while in heat is dangerous, wouldn't spaying while pregnant be more so?

I'm waiting on a call back from a vet to see about the shot. I didn't even know they had that! Thanks.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Your male may very well be too tall to breed your terrier.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Maria said:


> If spaying while in heat is dangerous, wouldn't spaying while pregnant be more so?


Nope.
Spaying while in heat isn't dangerous. They lose a little more blood. The main concern is that there are no more ovaries to get the hormones back into whack. It doesn't happen often, but sometimes the hormone levels stay high.

If she's spayed while just a few days pregnant, there will be ever-so-slightly more blood loss then if she wasn't, but that's it.

Your vet will tell you this, but with the shot, there is a chance of pyometria(sp?) infection of the uterus. The best treatment for that is spaying. So you may as well just spay.


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

I'm with Otter on this one. I've assisted in spays in/out of heat, early and late pregnancy. They in heat and out of heat were not much different, neither is the early pregnancy. Late pregnancy (ie, c-section with spay) is much more complicated.

The pups from a dog that big could definitely cause problems. Remember, he may be 80lb now, but look at how big he will be. 

I have also seen the problems that come with the mismate shot. Most of the dogs I have seen it given to, were brought in later for an emergency spay due to pyometra. It would be easier on the dog and easier on your wallet, to just go ahead and have her spayed.


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## Maria (Apr 24, 2003)

I'm still waiting for the vet to call, but early pregnancy spaying is probably the answer. If she isn't bred, though, we can wait until her hormones calm down. She was curling up when he was mouthing her this morning, so maybe she wasn't ready yet. And maybe he is too young and too tall. I'm hoping nothing happened!


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## Willow101 (Feb 20, 2008)

My take on this is just a tad different than the others that commented. I've worked for several veterinarians and all said that spaying while in heat does increase risks as there is in increased blood supply to the uterus. I had a dog spayed while in heat several years ago and she bled to death. If you must spay while in heat, chances are...all will be fine....but why do that with other, safer options available? You can wait until a couple weeks after she goes out of heat when the blood supply to the uterus is reduced. If she is pregnant then there is no more risk than if you spayed while in heat.

From my experience and the experience of others I would not recommend the shot. Why put the dog through that and then spay her anyway? If you do not spay after the shot you have a much higher risk of pyometra in any subsequent heat cycles and then you have a life threatening medical emergency.

I have to say, I disagree with your reasons for neutering late. Hip dysplasia is a hereditary disease caused by more than one....and likely several different genes in combination. Spay/neuter has nothing to do with it. I currently have a Gr Pyr-Golden Ret mix female that I had spayed at 7 months old. I also had her hips xrayed and she is moderately displastic already. Had I not done her hips while she was 'under' I would have discovered the problem months or years down the road and could then look back and blame all sorts of environmental factors. I think I have probably heard them all....incorrect nutrition, too fat, too thin, too much exercise, too little exercise, allowing the dog to jump, lack of vitamin suppliment or too many vitamins. I have even heard people blame vaccinations for hip dysplasia. I believe all these are denying the genetic componant. The best way to determine whether your guy is a candidate for the disease is to find out what the parents were. Did they have hip clearances? At what age? Did their litter mates have hip clearances? Have they produced consistantly hip dysplasia free pups? For the most part, accurate information is seldom available for a variety of reasons. Buying a dog from a farmer or back yard breeder usually means they don't do health clearances. Even the best breeders do not demand that all pups...pet, breeding or show...get hip clearances when old enough. So no matter how careful one is, there are always unknowns.

What I have found in past litters, both in rescue and as a breeder is there are three things that influence the size of the individual pup. Nutrition of the *****, size of the litter and genetics. I am assuming nutrition will be normal and we already know that genetics will play a role in that dad is way too big for mom. So that leaves litter size to either reduce pup size at birth or allow for too much size at birth. The smaller the litter the more likely you will have pups the little mom cannot have. A crowded uterus can be good thing.

And last, you won't hear me telling you how terrible you are for allowing the two 'kids' to get together. A female in heat and a male that knows it are determined to overcome all obstacles to have a one night stand. I had a GSD who chewed through THREE doors to breed a female German Shorthaired pointer. He didn't knock them down...he chewed his way through all of them. From your message it sounds like you were taking reasonable precautions to prevent what happened.

Good luck.

Willow101


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## Maria (Apr 24, 2003)

Chewed through three doors! Wow! I guess it's good I don't have the Great Pyr in the house with the rat terrier right now!

Just got done talking to the vet, and she thinks that it's unlikely that the GP pup was able to breed this young. But, just to be safe, we are going to do an ultrasound in 5 weeks to see if there's anything in there. If there's a litter, it should be OK to let her bear the puppies- as the pup size is dependant on the room in the womb. If it's a single pup,we should terminate the pregnancy as the puppy will be too big for her to birth.

She did say that the worst possible mate for a small ***** would be a big headed breed like a bulldog, but that GPs are a normal shaped dog head and she could probably safely bear such puppies.

I don't know, really, what such puppies would be good for, though. Both my dogs are working dogs. The rat terrier has a ferocious hunting instinct, and the GP loves to watch my sheep, and all other living things in the vicinity. He's such a sweetie. To breed a small killer to a giant, might produce a huge killer.  Would anyone even want such a dog?

I just hope she didn't get bred.


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

Spay her .. as soon as she's out of heat ... use the money for the ultrasound for the spay ...why would you bring more mixed breed puppies into the world?


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## jordan (Nov 29, 2006)

Sorry, your vet is just plain wrong about it being "OK" to let a RT carry a litter of pups if bred to a dog that will reach 100+ lbs! Why would you even risk it when you can safely spay in a week or so? Especially when you were planning to do it anyway...
The pups would be good for nothing since both breeds have such vastly different functions and temperaments (just because it's a working breed does not put it in the same working catagory). I agree with Brody 100%, why bring more mix breeds into the world?!


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## Willow101 (Feb 20, 2008)

Jordan brings up a very good point. The combination of these two breeds has the potential to be a very bad cross. You have the Pyr with strong guarding characteristics which often leads to aggression the average pet home is not able to deal with. The Rat Terrier has an intense prey drive...which is the chase and kill instinct. Combine aggression, chase and kill and the tendency to be dominant for both breeds and you get pups that will, at best, need to be placed extremely carefully and at worst could be death to a lot of livestock and neighborhood cats....not to mention the extremes of aggression towards people.

This cross is just not a good cross and since spaying was already on the table as an option....I'd spay her as soon as she is out of heat.

Willow101


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## Maria (Apr 24, 2003)

Since she probably isn't bred, an ultrasound showing nothing in the womb would allow us to wait 3 months or so until her reproductive system is in total shutdown mode. I'd rather do that if we can.

If she is pregnant, then we move on to an early pregnacy spay.

Edit: The vet did mention a study she knew of where beagle bitches were regularly crossed with German Shepard dogs- that's how she knew a litter would be OK, while a single pup would not.


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

Willow101 said:


> I had a GSD who chewed through THREE doors to breed a female German Shorthaired pointer. He didn't knock them down...he chewed his way through all of them.
> 
> Willow101


Wow, three doors. You gotta respect that kind of determination and commitment.


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## JKB07 (Mar 6, 2008)

Have her spayed and him neutered ASAP. 

You would be CRAZY to even consider letting her keep a pregnancy to the GP. 

Justin


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## Skykomish (May 28, 2008)

Height has NOTHING to do with whether or not he could breed her. Its all about age, I didn't see you posting the GP's age-- did I miss it? I would definitely get her spayed asap. And him neutered. If he is at least 6 months nothing bad will come of the neuter.


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## Maria (Apr 24, 2003)

Nope, I'm not doing anything that might mess up his bone growth. He's staying intact until he's at least a year old, maybe more. There's no definitive answer about exactly what leads to hip dysplasia, so I'm trying to cover all the theories. Our last big dog was a Newfie/Lab cross and spent most of his 14 years of life crippled by hip dysplasia. It's such a joy to see this 8 month old GP pup galloping around the yard completely unhindered by joint pain. I'm not risking that by neutering this young. When he's mostly grown, yes, but not now. Yes, there are other factors that we are also paying attention to, but this is an easily controllable one.

My vet (who I didn't get to talk to on this issue) originally told me to wait until the RT ***** is at least a year old to allow her personality to fully develop. She was scheduled for a spay right after her 1 year mark, but showed signs of going into heat so we decided to wait through this cycle. We reinforced the kennel this weekend, and she's staying put just fine. If she didn't get bred to the big pup, then it's all good. I'm glad we waited, by the way. She's recently started a doggie howling chorus with the other dogs at night that we haven't heard since my lab mix female died of old age 2 years ago.  It's fun to listen to, and I'm not sure she would have found that talent if she'd been spayed earlier.


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

Hormones do have an affect on temperament- but that is mainly in the males. I can think of no good reason NOT to spay a ***** at 6 months old if no plans to breed. Each season is an assualt on the uterus and leaves the ***** vulnerable to things such as pyometria, yeast infections, etc. I do not budge on bitches being spayed at 6 months old, but will allow more time for a male that is lean on bone to develop more bone- as testosterone does have an effect on bone thickness. As far as neutering affecting hips- I disagree. Either the joints are defective or they are not. During growth you want to guard against activity that would stress the joints that are lax due to growth and keep the dog lean- but neutering itself has nothing to do with it. Either the dog will develop dysplasia (altered or not) or it won't. Your best odds are to purchase stock from lines that have had hips OFA'd and all are in the normal range.
Your girls howling is probably due to frustration at not being able to get out of her kennel and mate.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Maria said:


> It's such a joy to see this 8 month old GP pup galloping around the yard completely unhindered by joint pain.


Most dogs don't show joint pain at 8 months of age. Some dogs never show pain even if severely dysplastic. You can't judge a dog's hips by the way he moves. Have you had a hip x-ray done? That's the only way to really know... and if he already has hip dysplasia, leaving him intact is not going to cure it.

And I'm sorry, but neutering does not cause hip dysplasia. The deal with testosterone has to do with the long bones and the weight of the pup as it grows; neutering allows the animal to put energy into growing rather than developing mating apparatus. If, after neutering, the pup eats too much, grows too fast, and gets too heavy, it can have a detrimental effect on the joints. Neutering and limiting calorie/protein intake will suffice to keep his joints healthy.



> My vet (who I didn't get to talk to on this issue) originally told me to wait until the RT ***** is at least a year old to allow her personality to fully develop.


 

who is this vet, and did he get his license out of a cracker jack box? The reason we spay/neuter BEFORE sexual maturity is so that they DON'T develop unwanted behaviors such as marking, howling, roaming, aggression, dominance, mounting, etc.... oh, and accidental, unwanted, possibly dangerous mixed-breed litters.  With vets spouting off nonsense like this, it's no wonder we a pet overpopulation problem.


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## Maria (Apr 24, 2003)

Hey, I _like _ how her personality is developing. I think my vet was right. Having her brain stuck in permanent puppy mode would be annoying.

And if the kennel had been constructed properly, she wouldn't have escaped and this never would have been an issue. I'm mad at the company that made the kennel panels, myself.


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

What makes you think her brain would be stuck in permanant puppy mode? Maturity happens with or without hormones. I have an an unaltered ***** that old and is now in puppy mode since we got the new puppy and a 2 yr old ***** that I am hoping she gets out of puppy mode and hits maturity sometime soon- altering is not going to affect that either. They are what they are.


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

Maria said:


> Hey, I _like _ how her personality is developing. I think my vet was right. Having her brain stuck in permanent puppy mode would be annoying.
> 
> And if the kennel had been constructed properly, she wouldn't have escaped and this never would have been an issue. I'm mad at the company that made the kennel panels, myself.


Yeah, this couldn't be the owner's fault...After all she has "good reasons" for not neutering and spaying...No one wants a permanent puppy or hip dysplasia, right?

I guess the answer to hip dysplasia all this time has been to leave your males unaltered...No unaltered male ever had to suffer bad hips, eh?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Not trying to get your dander up, but fixing does *not *result in an animals brain "being stuck in permanent puppy mode" An animal's personality will develop as they grow and learn with or without the operation.
While there are a very few times you wouldn't want to neuter a male young, there's no reason to wait on a girl. In fact, as it's a much more invasive surgery then the males, it's better done as a puppy. They still mentally become adults just fine, with less health problems and a lightning fast recovery from the spay.

And I'm sure some here will disagree with me, but personally, I have seen next to no behavioral difference before/after the surgery. Except in tomcats, they really do quit roaming and mellow out. The only time I have noted a difference in dogs is if it is done during the start of adolescence in males. If they are just starting to mark or roam, they usually stop if you catch them at that very small window where they are hormonally driven to do it - it quickly becomes a habit. Again, no difference in females.

I owned a dog who was neutered at 10 weeks. He developed fine, was a wonderful dog - and would happily breed a female in season. He actually had a thing for blonds (really, golden retrievers, buff cockers, a yellow shar-pei once). Many neutered males will still "play", and some spayed females will "flirt" with a male and even complete the act. I have a cat who was spayed at 4 months (before 1st heat), but sometimes when the season's changed, she and a neutered male would "answer the call of the wild" She's 10 now, can't say it really affected her health in any way. I've seen the same in dogs.

But don't take my word for it. Learn to be a groomer, volunteer at a shelter, get involved in a dog sport (a rat terrier would be great at Earth dog or Agility events) and get to know LOTS and LOTS of dogs, fixed at all ages. Nearly all the advice you've received here is from those I know have worked with dozens if not hundreds of dogs, myself included. We've found personality development is, well, personal, and has _very_ little to do with hormones. Except in an un-neutered male, there you'll notice a personality difference when he's "not thinking with his big head"

Hope everything turns out well with your girl.


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## PNP Katahdins (Oct 28, 2008)

Maria, I personally would be looking for another small-animal vet and have the female spayed in two weeks. That gives time to schedule the procedure. I understand why you want to wait with the male after your previous problems, but please don't risk the life of your little girl.

Peg


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Maria said:


> Hey, I _like _ how her personality is developing. I think my vet was right. Having her brain stuck in permanent puppy mode would be annoying.


This does not demonstrate very good grasp on canine health and behavior.

Spaying does *NOT* cause a female to have a "brain stuck in permanent puppy mode". It *DOES* curb hormonally motivated behavior, which can include marking, roaming, howling, increased aggression and dominance behavior... and messy, annoying heat cycles. Oh, and accidental, unwanted, and potentially dangerous litters of puppies (am I repeating myself?).

Spaying a female dog does *NOT* change her personality or thwart her mental maturity. If anything, spaying a pet dog will potentiate better behavior, as she doesn't have cyclic hormones compelling her behavior in ways you can't control or predict. Read the thread where a woman's Jack Russel had puppies and then starting hunting down and biting the woman's 2 year old daughter. Hormones cause that sort of thing.



> And if the kennel had been constructed properly, she wouldn't have escaped and this never would have been an issue. I'm mad at the company that made the kennel panels, myself.


And I'm mad at the people who told you it was a good idea not to spay your female or neuter your male. Don't blame this on the company that made the panels--YOU are the one who allowed your dog go into heat, which compelled her to escape to a much larger dog which YOU did not neuter. Personal responsibility is key here. Don't go blaming other people for a situation you created.

I realize this sounds harsh, but I have worked with dogs for 20 years and I am soooooooo tired of people's excuses for "whoops" litters when the shelters are full of unwanted dogs already. At least you are not intending to breed your dogs, which I have to give you credit for. I know that you've been told things about spay/neuter which made you think you are you doing the right thing. But the information you've been given is wrong, and in my opinion, it's irresponsible and potentially dangerous information to be giving to pet owners and a veterinarian should know better. 

Find a new vet that doesn't have his head up his grits, and get the female spayed ASAP. Get the male neutered ASAP. If his hips are good now, I promise that neutering will not give him hip dysplasia. Pyrs are known to be roamers whether they are neutered or not, but at least he won't be roaming around getting everyone else's dogs pregnant.

In the future, if you choose not to spay/neuter your dogs before they reach sexual maturity, try not to get two opposite-sex puppies of vastly divergent size at the same time.


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

being stuck in permanant puppy mode has more to do with domestication. Domestication reduced the levels or corticosteriods .
Also puppies do NOT develope according to the mother uterus. There are numerous cases proving this. One I can think of involved a female pomeranian that was impregnated by a german shepherd. The single puppy caused the mother abdomen to swell so much she could no longer walk, and obviously she would have never passed the pup. A c-section was performed and the pup was born premature. It was at a vet college so the puppy survived with intensive care. The pup was bigger then mom by 8 weeks. Most of the time the mother dies early in pregnancy from hemorrage and complications.


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

Also, dogs will breed through kennel panels! I know of several litters that were conceived this way. One was a showing Golden retriever that was put in a boarding facility. A black Laborador that was next door to her, bred her through the chain link. The owner was not amused! She had put her there to prevent breeding.


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

Very true Farmmom...I have seen a male try to mate a ***** through a crate before....that is why my girls in season come up to the house on lock down- in a crate when not right beside me...and no boys allowed in the house except for her intended- if there is to be one this time. I have had a neighbors dog come through a window trying to get one of my bitches in season- oh the window was closed. Fortunately I was there to catch the intruder before he could reach his goal who was crated in another room. Taking them out for potty runs are quick as possible and on a short lead...all it takes is for your attention to be divereted for a moment to turn around to a tie.
Oops litters happen- even to careful, responsible people but mostly it is because someone thought they were taking enough precautions and they weren't. Bitches can have silent seasons, dogs and bitches can be very resourceful....yours and the neighbors or a stray. That is why if you have no intention to breed, it is best to alter ASAP. If you do intend to keep whole animals it is your responsibility to know how it could happen , educate your family about it and do everything in your power to prevent accidental breedings....and if it does happen, to be responsible and either spay the ***** or be prepared to keep all the pups if excellent homes cannot be found.


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## JKB07 (Mar 6, 2008)

Maria,

What you are saying is foolish. 

This is the reason we have millions of unwanted pets being killed every year. 

Please just have the two fixed! 

Justin


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## Maria (Apr 24, 2003)

If she has pups, I'll kill them! OK, everyone?

Good grief.

I wish I could deactivate this thread. I don't need any more advice, thanks.


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## GoldenMom (Jan 2, 2005)

Maria, in the future if you want a thread closed, just contact Ross or myself. We'll gladly do it for you.


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