# New Update on Draft Horse with Leg Injury



## redgate

It's been almost a week since I posted. Sorry, I don't get a lot of time to post here. If you have anything specific to ask/say, pm me, as I get that more often. For those of you who have followed my threads and are interested, here is today's update:

About 10 days ago, we contacted a highly recommended vet that was very experienced in performance horses, and got a second opinion on our big guy. Sure, he's a draft, but there aren't exactly draft horses specialists in my area. I'll take what I can get! Her opinion was also that, if managed and treated correctly, he had a good prognosis and could be back at work in 4-6 months. 

After the injection blew the sutures last week, the vet really took things seriously. We had a long talk with him, and he seemed to get more mentally and professionally invested in our horse's case, for whatever reason. We gave him an idea of the horses value, and roughly what we could spend before calling it quits. He agreed to work with us as best he could, and felt the horse could be fixed for well under that amount. 

Over the next week, the horse was left at the clinic for more intensive care. Due to the blown sutures and massive infection that took over the tissues, he focused on keeping it clean, put antibiotics directly into the infected tissues, and gave the horse systemic antibiotics to control the fever and relieve the infection. He also focused on letting the injury heal from the inside out, since he had to leave it open to drain. 

This past Monday, we agreed to minor surgery--complete sedation so he could get in and really clean the knee out, remove some excess growth, and resuture. The procedure went well, the knee was restored with individual sutures this time (is my understanding), and then the entire leg was splinted and wrapped from hoof to elbow to prevent bending that knee and busting the sutures that way. On Wednesday, he unwrapped, checked, cleaned, and re-splinted and wrapped the leg, again from hoof to elbow. He said one suture toward the top had ruptured, but it was nothing major. He thinks it was rubbed out by bandage movement. He has also observed a bit of synovial fluid leaking, with isn't great, but he claims it's to be expected with all the trauma. He said the fluid is not as perfect as should be, which could indicate a very low-grade infection, but he feels it is very minor and the daily antibiotics the horse is now receiving will keep it from flaring up. Or so he hopes. 

So that's where we stand now. It's hard to believe we are 3.5 weeks into this now, and still fighting basic sutures and infection! We have weighed all our costs and options, though, and we are still willing to move forward at this point. The plan for now is to leave him at the clinic, wrapped and splinted, with occasional checks and changes, for about another week. Once he removes the sutures and his fever stays gone, then he will be free to come home. For those who are wondering about costs, it is running roughly $100 day right now, but the vet is planning to reduce some of the mark-ups as time goes on to help us out. I had a great talk with him today, and he feels the horse is doing very well. He has never favored the leg or hesitated to walk on it, which he feels is a good sign. At this stage, he feels the horse will be fully working in a few months, and by 6 months, we should know the full extent of his long-term damage like arthritis setting in. He said, at worst, he feels like the knee's condition will simply "age" the horse a bit. In other words, rather than the capabilities of the rambunctious 4 year old he was 4 weeks ago, he may only have the physical capabilities of a 13-17 year old for the next 15 years, in THAT knee. He felt like the prognosis is still excellent, if we can just get over this hump of infection and ruptured sutures. 

Hopefully, prayerfully, I will have great news in another week. In the mean time, we try to visit daily. Today, I took him his favorite treat and groomed him really good. My kiddos scratched his sweet spot, and the vet was spoiling him with some hay he was going nuts for. It's about all we can do, other than pray. I don't think I've ever prayed so hard for an animal!


----------



## aoconnor1

Thanks for the update redgate, we will keep up the prayers for the big guy. Please keep us posted!


----------



## Molly Mckee

Prayers for your big horse. Sounds like things are looking up.
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## redgate

aoconner1, no she did not mention that, but tell her, "THANKS!!" We could sure use the prayers. I think half our town is rooting for this guy. They fell in love with him during our summer wagon rides around downtown, and later when the team played the "Wells Fargo Wagon" at our local theater. Folks were just sick when they found out. Just the other day, I even received a "Get well" card in the mail that contained a drawing of our wagon from a 4-year-old little girl who had ridden downtown, along with her family photo my husband took of them with the horses (he often becomes photographer after the rides). We don't remember her, as it was a one-time thing, but it showed us just how much folks around here are enjoying our team, and just how many folks are rooting for him! I sure hope I can deliver great news when this is all over!!


----------



## aoconnor1

redgate said:


> aoconner1, no she did not mention that, but tell her, "THANKS!!" We could sure use the prayers. I think half our town is rooting for this guy. They fell in love with him during our summer wagon rides around downtown, and later when the team played the "Wells Fargo Wagon" at our local theater. Folks were just sick when they found out. Just the other day, I even received a "Get well" card in the mail that contained a drawing of our wagon from a 4-year-old little girl who had ridden downtown, along with her family photo my husband took of them with the horses (he often becomes photographer after the rides). We don't remember her, as it was a one-time thing, but it showed us just how much folks around here are enjoying our team, and just how many folks are rooting for him! I sure hope I can deliver great news when this is all over!!


I thought better of posting that so I edited it out of my post . Should have left it in!! I didn't know if I should have said anything!

One of the vets there raised and drove Percheron teams for years. They know a lot about the "big guys" at the clinic. She doctored my big Percheron/Thoroughbred more than once, too! 

I will definitely tell them thanks!


----------



## where I want to

There are successes out there, even if we all tend to report the catastrophes. I hope that your beautiful boy is one of them. Thanks for posting.


----------



## sidepasser

Hoping that your boy will be well quickly and back in the harness soon!


----------



## redgate

Here's a photo from the day of surgery, a few days ago. We haven't seen the actual injured area at all this week, so no photos of how it's healing. We just have to take the vet's word, as he opens it all up and checks on things. Otherwise, they are keeping it splinted and bandaged at all times. In this photo, he's very sweaty as a side effect to the anesthetic.


----------



## aoconnor1

Aw, poor guy:-(


----------



## redgate

My heart is breaking today. We talked to the vet again, and the horse has started leaking synovial fluid, which is keeping the tissues moist and soft, which is causing the sutures to rip out again. 3 weeks and several thousand $$ into this, and not much progress. We are at the critical threshold for the next 2 days--if the sutures blow, that's it, it can't be resutured. If they hold and infection doesn't set in, there is a good chance he will be on the mend. That isn't likely, though, based on how things looked yesterday when they changed the bandage. So, basically in about 48 hours, we may have to make a heartbreaking decision, and I am not looking forward to it. We don't have endless pockets, and we know we've given it our best effort. He is reaching our cap, though. Oh, how I hate this!! I'm praying for a miracle, because that's all that will help at this point.


----------



## wr

I sure hope there is improvement. Can you check with your vet and see if there is a chance he is allergic or rejecting the sutures. 

I know it happens in humans because I am one of very few people that will reject stitches every time and twice in my life, they just about killed me.


----------



## where I want to

redgate said:


> My heart is breaking today. We talked to the vet again, and the horse has started leaking synovial fluid, which is keeping the tissues moist and soft, which is causing the sutures to rip out again. 3 weeks and several thousand $$ into this, and not much progress. We are at the critical threshold for the next 2 days--if the sutures blow, that's it, it can't be resutured. If they hold and infection doesn't set in, there is a good chance he will be on the mend. That isn't likely, though, based on how things looked yesterday when they changed the bandage. So, basically in about 48 hours, we may have to make a heartbreaking decision, and I am not looking forward to it. We don't have endless pockets, and we know we've given it our best effort. He is reaching our cap, though. Oh, how I hate this!! I'm praying for a miracle, because that's all that will help at this point.


I'm so sorry. I know there is only so much you can do with an animal as a big as a horse.


----------



## aoconnor1

Oh no, I'm so very sorry to hear this. Please know that you and your boy are in my prayers.


----------



## sisterpine

Oh dear, I am so very sorry for all of you involved. I can only imagine the turmoil you are going through and you are all in my prayers as well. sis


----------



## Molly Mckee

Hope things improve. We had a friend's horse blow up in their trailer and manage to cut tendons in both hind legs. The vet put him back together as well as he could and then called a vet that specialized in horses' legs several states away. They told him he had done everything wrong, he might as well put the horse down, he would never be sound. Our friends' decided to go with the original plan, the horse was back doing 50 mile endurance rides the next summer. He had scars, but was totally sound. I hope your horse does as well.


----------



## Molly Mckee

wr said:


> I sure hope there is improvement. Can you check with your vet and see if there is a chance he is allergic or rejecting the sutures.
> 
> I know it happens in humans because I am one of very few people that will reject stitches every time and twice in my life, they just about killed me.


This happened to my DGD as well. They had to go in and take the dissolving sutures out. It is rare but happens. And when it does it's catastrophic.


----------



## aoconnor1

Also, see if your vet can wrap and contain without sutures. That's what we did with my guy recently.

I know it sounds like the end redgate, but there is still hope. I am praying for you.


----------



## goodhors

aoconnor1 said:


> Also, see if your vet can wrap and contain without sutures. That's what we did with my guy recently.
> 
> I know it sounds like the end redgate, but there is still hope. I am praying for you.


 
This is quite do-able in many instances. In a previous post I mentioned that we don't do much in sutures, because we have never had good luck with them on legs. Tissues just never held to allow stitches to pull things back together, skin died and let them rip out. These days I just wrap over wounds, do not stitch them on legs. Have not had to deal with major leakage of synovial fluids though some were cut to the bone, you could rap on it! One had cut some major blood vessels so it was a bit of poor circulation later! Did heal, horse was totally usable after, lived to a working OLD age. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not.

Just could go either way, since I don't know what is bad in the joints with cut damages, if you want to "spend the money" to have a possibly unsound, unusable horse. Not trying to get your hopes up too far, if stitches won't hold, but you may wish to try letting him heal with good bandaging pressures and time.

You have given it your best shot for healing, so if it goes bad you tried darn hard for him. Can't do more than that.


----------



## Teej

Sorry to hear this but I'm still hoping you'll be able to post a good update rather than a bad one.


----------



## aoconnor1

goodhors said:


> This is quite do-able in many instances. In a previous post I mentioned that we don't do much in sutures, because we have never had good luck with them on legs. Tissues just never held to allow stitches to pull things back together, skin died and let them rip out. These days I just wrap over wounds, do not stitch them on legs. Have not had to deal with major leakage of synovial fluids though some were cut to the bone, you could rap on it! One had cut some major blood vessels so it was a bit of poor circulation later! Did heal, horse was totally usable after, lived to a working OLD age. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not.
> 
> Just could go either way, since I don't know what is bad in the joints with cut damages, if you want to "spend the money" to have a possibly unsound, unusable horse. Not trying to get your hopes up too far, if stitches won't hold, but you may wish to try letting him heal with good bandaging pressures and time.
> 
> You have given it your best shot for healing, so if it goes bad you tried darn hard for him. Can't do more than that.


 I agree completely with trying no sutures but good pressure wrap. I am hoping for the best, but fully understand you have a limit. Our prayers are with you guys.


----------



## wr

goodhors said:


> This is quite do-able in many instances. In a previous post I mentioned that we don't do much in sutures, because we have never had good luck with them on legs. Tissues just never held to allow stitches to pull things back together, skin died and let them rip out. These days I just wrap over wounds, do not stitch them on legs. Have not had to deal with major leakage of synovial fluids though some were cut to the bone, you could rap on it! One had cut some major blood vessels so it was a bit of poor circulation later! Did heal, horse was totally usable after, lived to a working OLD age. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not.
> 
> Just could go either way, since I don't know what is bad in the joints with cut damages, if you want to "spend the money" to have a possibly unsound, unusable horse. Not trying to get your hopes up too far, if stitches won't hold, but you may wish to try letting him heal with good bandaging pressures and time.
> 
> You have given it your best shot for healing, so if it goes bad you tried darn hard for him. Can't do more than that.



I've never had good luck with stitches either and that's kinda why I made a previous comment about infection being expected.


----------



## redgate

Well, big changes. As feared, the sutures blew, the synovial fluid continued to leak, and my big boy started literally going insane in the stall. He went from the sweet, dopey-eyed, "gentle-giant" I could do almost anything with, to a wild thing, with flared eyes, flared nostrils, not trusting of anyone or anything. IT literally ripped my heart out to see that. He spent so much time pawing at the stall gate in the clinic, the rebar-splints they used began poking and chafing other parts of his leg. Nothing was going well. In addition, he got so sick of being poked, prodded, and doctored, that, even under heavy sedation, with a twitch (so tight it has left a pink mark around his upper lip), and put into stocks, he fought tooth and nail and prevent them from cleaning his leg. It was getting really ugly. He would even spin his hind end around at the techs who tried to halter him. He has never done something like that before! He was a greet-you-at-the-gate-and-be-the-first-haltered type horse. 

So, he's home now. The vet, another man who is a draft horse expert, and we all came up with a plan. It's a last-ditch effort, but your stories on here have given me hope that maybe, just maybe, he has a chance. The vet removed his bandage and splint, leaving the wound open. We brought him home, put him into a well-bedded stall for the night, but he could stick his head out of his window and see his buddy out in the field. He was so crazy, he literally spun all the bedding out of the center of his stall by morning. He was standing on the plastic equi-tiles. This morning, he had relaxed a little more, so we set up an outside pen adjoining his stall that allows him to actually walk out into the sunshine, but not so much room he can trot or get too excitable. We spent a lot of time with him, just brushing, petting, and trying to re-earn his trust. 

By mid-day, we really needed to hose the open wound, which was draining all sorts of stuff, and treat. There was no way he would let us touch it, and we didn't want to get on his bad side. The vet had told us to use Wonder dust since it could be quickly sprayed on and, when it arrives, we will use a spray on bandage of sorts (Derma-gel). Since the horse was gross to touch after 2 weeks in a vet stall, I came up with the idea to just give him a bath. We led him out, started hosing and bathing his good side, and won his confidence. He relaxed a bit, so then we hosed and bathed the side with the injured a leg. It took longer, and he was cautious, but he gradually relaxed. As I lathered, I made sure to get a little extra soap above the wound. Finally, I rinsed the lather, "accidentally" spraying his wound and getting the soap around it. The first couple times I sprayed, he jumped and looked at me like "Do you have any idea what you just did?!" I pretended not to notice, and I guess he gave up. He never fought or struggled. By the end, I was able to stand and firmly hose directly into the wound for almost 2 minutes. He was getting fidgety, so I didn't want to push it, and ended on a good note. I squeegeed the water off, loved on him a bit, and when he had dried a little, I managed to sneak a quick spritz of Wonder-dust into it. 

He definitely isn't out of the woods. The wound looks awful, is still open all the way to the joint, and the synovial fluid is still infected. Granulation tissue is growing, though, and after a week of splinting, his leg is pretty stiff which is discouraging him from bending it. He's also on daily doses of sulfa- antibiotics and bute still. We still don't know if he will pull through, but at this point, the last-ditch effort is that perhaps, nature, fresh air, sunshine, and being as across the fences from his buddy will help him heal. It's our only shot. Obviously, the hope is that it will heal. If he recovers fully, we will gradually put him back to work. If he heals, but can't work, we have an offer from someone who wants him as a pasture pet. We hope to know more over the next month or two, before winter rolls in. I guess if we can make it through this week without a major infection, then we will be doing really good. We can only take it a day and a week at a time right now. 

Here's a photo of his new digs. Certainly not as dirt-free as I'd like, as this our main traffic area for every animal. It is cleaned as much as possible of manure, but it is all dirt, no grass. We are trying to keep it somewhat covered in bedding. It's the best we can do. The hope is that he will be doing well enough by the end of the week (and the heat wave will be over) so that we can create a paddock out in the pasture to put him for increasing hours of the day. It will keep him cleaner and allow him to graze again.


----------



## wyld thang

I took care of a horse that had a deep wound into his hip bone (bone broke off, died, gangrene etc. vet cut into it so it could drain), I had to keep the wound open rinsing it etc. All this to say it was not sanitary conditions by any means. Don't freak if maggots appear, they are your friends and will clean out dead tissue and leave healthy pink stuff. I just wanted to say that while milage varies the horse I took care of in a mountain corral survived and recovered great. I had to be vigilant though in cleaning the wound twice a day. Also for his mind I did a lot of grooming and when he could walk I started taking him for walks outside his corral, even just a brief getting outside was good, several times a day, also tied him up at different places so he could watch goings on and be near other horses yet it restricted his movement.


----------



## wyld thang

ps also it didn't take him long to get him used to me cleaning out his wound, I just was gently persistant and had a peaceful heart. He even let me reach my hand inside him to pull out goo. Sorry to be gross  you can do it! He actually looks great in the pic!


----------



## where I want to

I hope he is one of those wonderful success stories for you. With all my heart.


----------



## aoconnor1

Sounds like a plan. 

I had a mare that impaled herself almost into her heart on a T post. She was 3 months pregnant and we couldn't do anything, including give antibiotics for more than 5 days, but hydro, hydro, hydro. I found a wonderful way to get Chlorhexidine into the wound...I bought a "dial" type lawn fertilizer sprayer bottle thingie, if you know what I mean. It attached to the hose and I could put 2 ounces of chlorhexidine in the bottle, spray at a 2 oz to one quart or gallon ratio, and hosed the wound out twice a day with that. After the blue chlorhexidine was gone from the spray bottle, I just kept spraying to get get residue removed. It worked beautifully No need to physically touch the injury, thereby less risk of infection from my hands, and a nice hydro with cool water relieved the swelling and pain each time.

Anyway, I am praying for you. So glad he is home at least and calming down for you.


----------



## mulemom

Hang in there Redgate! Wonder Dust is awesome stuff. Glad your boy's home and calmer-wishing you the best.


----------



## aoconnor1

mulemom said:


> Hang in there Redgate! Wonder Dust is awesome stuff. Glad your boy's home and calmer-wishing you the best.


Wonder Dust is an absolute staple in my barn! Wishing her the very best with that beautiful boy


----------



## Teej

Hoping for the best outcome possible.


----------



## redgate

OK, big question here&#8230;Tonight, horse is acting normal, eating normal, but thick, yellow goo is literally oozing down his leg. The entire area was nice, fleshy, pink this morning, with a little yellow, bubbly froth oozing here and there, but nothing major. It was like that all day, and then tonight, this goo everywhere on the wound. Is this a raging infection setting in (which we are out of options for fighting) or is this possibly a result of the wonder-dust? I will be taking his temp tomorrow and hosing it again. Just curious. He hasn't been home but 24 hours, and it's already changed that much. Oh, this is not easy!!


----------



## sisterpine

Oh dear, such a tough journey for you and your horse. Praying for both.


----------



## GrannyCarol

I don't know about raging infection, but if he's happy, then keep going. Be calm and let him rest and do the best you can. 

Personally I'd add comfrey tea to his meals or let him eat a couple of leaves a day if you have access to it. It's one of the best healing herbs out there. You can use it in his wound too, as an infusion or salve. Old ranchers swear by it, I keep it on hand to feed my ducks (good livestock food) and to make salve out of to heal darn near anything. I use it on myself for skin irritations or infections, fungal infections, and arthritis.

I sure hope your last ditch idea works out. To me it sounds like a good plan, let nature and time do their work, let your horse get unstressed. Stress is so hard on healing, sunshine and rest are a wonderful thing.


----------



## aoconnor1

That is fairly normal. You can use a little Vaseline on the "ooze" trail to keep the leg from chaffing from the slime, but don't get it up near the wound as it holds bacteria. I do strongly advise, and please, I am trying to help based only on my personal experience with catastrophic injuries, but get a gallon of Chlorhexidine and start using it diluted 3 parts water to one part Chlorhexidine as a flush cleanser every single day. It is the best anti microbial, antibacterial, anti infection product out there. It will keep the wound as clean as it can be under the circumstances. You can get a 60 cc dosing syringe with a catheter tip and flush, flush, flush about a quart daily into the wound area, leave on for a few minutes, then rinse. Chlorhexidine is a very strong cleanser, a little goes a long way.

Remember also, the wound had been bandaged and stitched and his movement contained until just recently, leaving little room for anything to ooze out. Basically, as long as he is on a good antibiotic (I like Uniprim for bad wounds), and you are cleaning the wound daily with a very strong flush, the drainage is going to occur for a long while until the wound is closed in.


----------



## wr

aoconnor1 said:


> Sounds like a plan.
> 
> I had a mare that impaled herself almost into her heart on a T post. She was 3 months pregnant and we couldn't do anything, including give antibiotics for more than 5 days, but hydro, hydro, hydro. I found a wonderful way to get Chlorhexidine into the wound...I bought a "dial" type lawn fertilizer sprayer bottle thingie, if you know what I mean. It attached to the hose and I could put 2 ounces of chlorhexidine in the bottle, spray at a 2 oz to one quart or gallon ratio, and hosed the wound out twice a day with that. After the blue chlorhexidine was gone from the spray bottle, I just kept spraying to get get residue removed. It worked beautifully No need to physically touch the injury, thereby less risk of infection from my hands, and a nice hydro with cool water relieved the swelling and pain each time.
> 
> Anyway, I am praying for you. So glad he is home at least and calming down for you.


The old rancher had a young gelding tear himself up bad and he was on a movie set so in my wisdom, I put the young guy in the barn (which has no running water or power) and I ended up using a spray bottle like you'd use for window cleaner for hydro therapy for months. 

To circumvent the ugly infection, we diluted detol (but I suggest following vet instructions). If you have a fly problem, be sure to handle accordingly but do NOT spray on the wound. I used boraform and sprayed a good couple inches from the outside of the wound.

In cases like this, you have to the treat the horse psychologically as well. It's easy for them to give up when you go in, treat, go back in, treat and everything in their world involves discomfort. Make very sure you make a separate trip to visit, groom, chat, hand off a treat, check bedding or whatever but spend that extra bit of non care time with them. My kids were younger so they spent a lot of time in a still with our guy and after three months of the two youngest, helping with treatment, grooming/braiding mane & tail, playing with him, teaching him tricks and fighting with each other as they were known to do. 

We ended up with a truly bomb proof horse and my little cousin's youngest just 'bought' him from the old rancher for the princely sum of a crooked, rather singed angel food cake and a half hour of yard work.


----------



## Molly Mckee

While I would watch for signs on infection, an overwhelming infection would show up with a fever, loss of appetite and the other symptoms of generalized infection. 
Here's hoping he does well and heals.


----------



## redgate

I managed to hose his leg and get a little chlorhex squirted into the wound this morning, but he was more difficult this morning. We learned that he is much more cooperative with only one person working with him. As soon as I asked my husband to hold the lead while I worked, we lost all his trust, and he exploded. He doesn't have an issue with my husband, but apparently there is an issue with multiple people around him, since the vet/techs all used 3-4 folks to control him for treatments. It took me a while to calm him down, and I had to get really firm with him. It was getting dangerous. I never was able to fully regain his faith, but I was able to end with the hose and him standing still, so that was a good time to stop. I then lost his trust again later when I spritzed the wonder dust into the wound. He completely flipped out, and went 3-legging it as fast as he could all around his stall and pen. I had to back down in a hurry to keep him for completely causing a wreck. I finally got him calm, loved on him, rubbed him all over with the wonder dust bottle until he relaxed a little, then left him. Later, I went back and haltered him, just to unhalter him, as I didn't want him thinking the halter only means treatment. (Just to clarify, we normally do all our work on cross-ties. However, these guys are so incredibly strong with their immense size, that while he is acting like a nut, I am doing everything with a halter and lead, and not tied, which is why is able to move around. I really don't want him pulling my barn down! Maybe it's not possible, but I don't want to test it! So, he is getting really good at hobbling in a circle when he's upset! He'll be "well-rounded" when this is all over! :rotfl

Oh, it breaks my heart to see him so frightened. He was our most laid-back, easy-going guy. Hardly anything got his attention. He was always the calm one in the team. Now, he has just lost all trust. It is so sad. I know I can regain it, but it's going to take time and lot of effort. I'll just keep brushing, and grooming, and rubbing him all over, which I think he likes, in between treatments. I am working towards getting closer and closer to the wound, just so he learns that me by the wound, or on that leg, doesn't mean I am going to cause him pain. I would love to get his lower leg washed good and slathered with vaseline to keep the ooze from irritating his skin, but there is no possible way at this stage. Any ideas of poultices are out. The best I can do is hose it with the wound. I am picking up the Dermagel spray "bandage" this afternoon, and hope to be able to spray that on, but we'll see. 

The other thing I've learned (I think) is that the wonder dust may be causing all the ooze. I'll know for sure tomorrow. By this morning, he had licked the wound pretty clean of wonder dust, and the ooze had stopped. We hosed, cleaned, and squirted on again. Within an hour, the yellow ooze was everywhere, just coating every part of the wound and dripping down the leg. There is a lot of granulation tissue, so I'm wondering if the components of that powder draw out infection and excess fluids? Does anyone know? Unfortunately, I have not yet been able to take his temp. I want to, I just can't push it with him. I'm taking things slow and easy right now. Perhaps I'll try again this afternoon or this eve. Here is a photo from this morning, after we had washed.


----------



## handymama

Hey, that is actually looking REALLY good! I'm a CNA and I've seen a lot of horrendous, to the bone bed sores. There's a good chance that will heal well from the inside out, but it takes a long time.


----------



## aoconnor1

It does look fairly good. If you have a walmart or similar nearby, and he still won't let you touch him,you can look for one of those dial type lawn fertilizer containers and you can use it to get the Chlorhexidine on the wound without having to traumatized him with doing it by hand. Poor guy, sounds like he just had a horrible time of it at the vets. As long as you can get it sprayed or spritzed or whatever with the Chlorhexidine, he should be ok. You can try a spray on granulation reduction product like Scarlet oil to help with that tissue, I use it on my horses that react badly to the sound the Wonder Dust bottle. I don't know why, but boy do some of them dislike that sound!! Silly horses.

Will he let you snip those remaining stitches out? They will only serve to irritate the skin around the wound if they stay in too long. Just a thought...


----------



## badlander

Yep handymama, I did stint as a wound nurse for a couple of weeks and I have to admit I found the job to be enjoyably challenging.You definitely want the wound to heal from the inside out. You want to keep it moist, not soggy 24/7 but the hosing offs you are doing are great. As for your fear of infection, trust your nose. If your big boy is developing a full blown infection in that wound you will smell it immediately and you will recognize the smell. It probably has an odor to it now but while distinctive isn't unpleasant. If you start to smell a rotten meat sort of odor that is an big alarm going off for you.

I think you are handling the situation well and are to be commended. He sure looks more content in his own paddock and you are doing a great job with that wound. Once it gets on a roll healing and barring any more complications, you should be noticing a big difference in it in 8 weeks. And yes if it heals right you will be amazed. Be patient. It isn't going to happen over night. And hang in there.


----------



## handymama

Wonder if that vet would give him a script for some hydrogel


----------



## GrannyCarol

I was going to ask what you are doing for pain management? When my poor girl foundered, we put her on BL pellets, an herbal pain management. While they aren't as effective as Bute, they manage pain really pretty well and you top dress the feed with them, she loved the taste. She hated being given bute in any sort of paste we found, so thought that might be worth a thought for long term pain care. You avoid the side affects of depressed appetite and ulcers too.


----------



## wr

GrannyCarol said:


> I was going to ask what you are doing for pain management? When my poor girl foundered, we put her on BL pellets, an herbal pain management. While they aren't as effective as Bute, they manage pain really pretty well and you top dress the feed with them, she loved the taste. She hated being given bute in any sort of paste we found, so thought that might be worth a thought for long term pain care. You avoid the side affects of depressed appetite and ulcers too.


Maybe it's different in the US but up here, our options for powdered Bute are, orange, grape and cherry and if it tastes anywhere near as off as it smells, I'm quite sure I know why I've never been able to convince a horse to consume it.


----------



## handymama

Shew it does smell funky. My old mare was not that fond of it either. Had to be mixed with a lot of sugar.


----------



## GrannyCarol

I mixed ours with applesauce or peanut butter and used an oral syringe to force feed it to her. She wasn't a fan. It was also messy to prepare.


----------



## handymama

I spent the entire time we had it expecting some idiot on drugs to break in and steal it to get high.


----------



## redgate

No, there is no way I could touch those sutures at this point. As it stands, they may actually be helping hold things together. Some of them are pretty taught still. The vet is planing to sedate him and do it in 2 more weeks when he goes back for a check. Everything I do takes creativity. To hose the wound, we start by hosing his body/leg. He's the cleanest horse in town right now!! The wound just becomes part of the hosing as far as he is concerned. To get the derma-gel spray on, I spray his body with flyspray in one hand (which is used to and doesn't mind), and then sneak the occasional squirt of derma-gel on his wound with the other hand. He gives me a funny look, but as long as I go back to squirting fly spray, he seems to accept it. Thus, he's also the most fly-resistant horse in town right now. The wonder dust is a bit trickier, but I am not using it today since we used the derma-gel. That one, I just have to sneak, squirt, and get away before he gets too ticked off. Not easy. If he thinks I am getting too close, he threatens to kick, side-swipe, or bite. His manners are shot over this wound! He is soooo protective of it! 

As far as pain, he is on bute. I don't like giving it all the time, but the vet wants it for inflammation as well. We use a pill that is dissolved in water and sprinkled over a hint of grain, which he gobbles right up.


----------



## handymama

Poor thing has been through so much. But you're doing such a great job.


----------



## Molly Mckee

I have found strawberry jello powder works pretty well to mix with medicines, I have also put it in the water when traveling and the horse won't drink strange water.


----------



## handymama

I shall store that away for later use. Thanks Molly McKee.


----------



## GrannyCarol

I'm glad he'll eat the bute, much simpler that way! I sure hope he pulls through.


----------



## aoconnor1

I have used applesauce to hide pretty much any powdered drug. One of my big TB mares actually stops eating her grain when I stop any kind of treatment she gets that is hidden in applesauce!! I have to humor her back into her grain, she is so silly...

My horses, and I mean none of the 21, will eat a powder I put in their feed without having it hidden in something they love. Except they will all eat Uniprim because it is apple flavor. I use bute paste, much easier to get a quick paste into their mouth than to waste bunches of powder. I know the paste may not be available everywhere though, so any neat trick to get it down them is appreciated!


----------



## wr

I've never had luck with applesauce but it's as foreign as grape and cherry. Molasses has worked well but when the kids were young and sharing treats, I discovered you can hide bute in peanut butter sandwiches but only if delivered by a kid.


----------



## Alder

I know I'm new here - Hi fellow horse peeps!

Sorry about the injury to your big guy. I think you may be doing the right thing by letting Mother Nature take it's course. Was wondering. Has anybody mentioned using Furacin powder in the wound? It comes in a puffer bottle, like Wonder Dust, and is an anti-biotic. 

http://www.calvetsupply.com/product/NFZ_Puffer/Antibiotics

I have used it on nasty open wounds before, and it works very well to ward off infection. 

The wound looks to me like it is closing, and a dry treatment at this point might be a good thing and encourage granulation.

Just some thoughts. Good luck with your boy!


----------



## mulemom

Redgate that wound actually looks pretty good. Others are right about the sound of wonder dust when you spritz it. I've had to put some in a cap and just throw it at the wound on some horses, or take the cap off and shake it on. I have had horses in the past that absolutely could not be handled to clean a wound and treatment couldn't wait for them to be trained to allow it. The best I could do was sneak wonder dust on the wound twice a day. Cleaning probably would have meant a quicker outcome but they all healed. You're doing the best you can and in the end that's all any horse can ask for.


----------



## badlander

You guys are bringing up old memories for me. Years ago I had an old mare that had been foundered and had a relapse. They had just brought Bute out in capsule form for horses and her vet had just started using it. I think Goldee was the first horse he had dosed with it. The trick was getting those capsules down her. The vet said, get creative. We did, drilling out holes in apples and plugging them with Bute capsules....until she figured it out. I watched her one day take an apple, put it in her feed bucket and carefully nibble and sniff, nibble and sniff until the apple was gone and there was a tidy pile of Bute capsules in the bucket.

Dumb animal indeed!

Medicine has sure progressed since way back when. But horse people still have to get creative when it comes to getting horses to take what's good for them.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane guys. Hope your Big Boy continues to improve.


----------



## Chief Cook

Keeping you, your family, and that big beautiful horse in my prayers! You are doing a great job!


----------



## Alder

Speaking of getting meds into equines:

I have a Cushings oldster (30) and he needs pergolide powder every night. The volume dose of the powder is very small-about 1/2 tsp. I keep an old wormer syringe, mix the powder in a heaping Tablespoon or so of applesauce, and spoon it into the syringe. He doesn't "like" it, and he is a canny old coot, but he is resigned to getting it every night before his Senior supper mash.

Very handy, because if I have to sneak in any other meds (Bute, anti-biotic powder, etc.) I just add it to the applesauce syringe.

Note: use one of the bigger syringes - they're maybe 60cc sized as opposed the small Ivermectin-sized syringes. If the syringe gets sticky about working smoothly, drip on a little vegetable oil.


----------



## Kasota

Any update? I wonder how he is doing....


----------



## where I want to

I have said this before but I simply dissolve bute in a tablespoon or so of water, mix a glop of molasses into it, put it into a large syringe and put my hand under the horse chin to lift the head up and squirt over the back of the tongue. After the first dose or two, it can be done without a halter as the horse looks at it as a treat. The only problem I've run into after twenty year of doing it this way, is the occasional horse who grabs the syringe in his teeth and won't let go.
The point is to get it dissolved so there is no bitter to crunch. Then you can use cheap bute tabs without the work of even powdering it.
I even have some syringes with little plasic things over the tip so it doesn't run out of the syringe til I'm ready to give it.


----------



## redgate

Sorry all, I'm back with an update of sorts. 

"Nick" has been home for a week now. The day we picked him up, the look in his eye had gone from sweet and dopey to a raving lunatic. I couldn't believe the change in him. The tech could not halter him, and no one could touch anywhere lower than his left shoulder without him flipping out. Even now, if 2 of us approach, he gets incredibly nervous and impossible to work with. Everything must be done by only one person to keep him calm. 

Now, with LOTS of work and multiple-times-per-day handling and desensitizing to that area, we can now touch all the way to the injury itself, but are still working on getting below it. His leg has got be irritated from all the drainage, but he just won't let me clean it yet. We've even tried blindfolding, which helped, but didn't get the job done. It is a very psychological thing for him at this point. We can touch it with a rope, a stick, anything, so it doesn't seem to hurt. But if we actually bend our body over and reach with our arm, he gets extremely nervous (hence the occasional blindfold). If we have ANYTHING in our hand (i.e. brush, spray, etc.), he tries to spin completely away or threatens to kick. It is a challenge no doubt, but he is making progress. The look in his eye is almost back to normal, and he is so much happier now. He has progressed to a stall with a run out into the sunshine. The run is about 40x30 feet, so a pretty decent size. Twice a day, he gets to interact with the other horses over the fence rail when we bring them up for their food. 

As far as the wound, I don't know what to think. The vet is still just positive it will heal and he will work again. He seems so confident. We ran out of the antibiotic on Monday, and the vet decided not to prescribe more for fear of digestive upset. This has made me nervous, as it is still a wide open wound. I have gotten a daily temperature, and it seems to be maintaining between 100 and 101, so it seems OK so far. We accidentally forgot his bute on Monday, for a 24 hour period. By Tuesday afternoon, his leg was swollen and sore. DUH!! We got him back on the bute, and he was feeling so great, and became so active, we considered "forgetting" it again!! Alas, we kept him on it, and he is certainly happier for it. We have managed to cut most of the sutures. Once we sneakily cut off the knot, he pulls the sutures himself. We are down to about 3-5 (hard to get a good count without bending over, but you can get an idea in the photo). The strangest thing is that he is actually biting off chunks of granulation tissue that develop. The vet is baffled by that, and says he's never heard of a horse doing it. This keeps the wound fresh, which I guess could be good or bad. Mostly just around the edges, but still very bloody when he does it. 

I would love to know what you think about his wound at this point. It has filled in nicely, though there is still a lot of swelling. In the morning, after hosing, we spray derma-gel on it. In the evening, after hosing, we spritz wonder dust on it. The black stuff you see along the top side of the wound is residue of wonder dust. The black spots on the bottom are blood clots (I think) where the sutures were. The line in the middle is where he keeps splitting the wound open. A few questions:

Will the swelling decrease or will he always have a knee twice the size of the other?

The wound is still leaking synovial fluid. How long does it take for that to stop?

When it scars over, will he just have a massive, lumpy bald spot there, or will any hair ever grow back over that area? 

The vet made a comment I don't fully understand. He says he is confident Nick will work again. He says carriage work and basic work will be no problem with him. HOWEVER, he fears that any truly strenuous work, such as pulling a log up a hill like we used to do, may cause him to "collapse" due to the compromised support structure of the knee. I don't really understand what he means by that since no tendons or ligaments were cut. Any ideas? 

Thanks so much for all your interest. It has been very comforting knowing people all over the country are supporting us in this endeavor. Some of you have pm'd very kind messages. Please know that I don't have a lot of time to reply, but I am reading your messages and greatly appreciate them. It is challenging and emotionally hard, but oh so educational. I just pray it is all worth it in the end. Our vet hasn't seen him since he left the clinic a week ago, and they don't really think it's necessary to see him again for 2 more weeks. I appreciate being able to bounce my concerns off you guys here! So, thanks again, and please don't hesitate to keep the comments and pm's coming!!


----------



## Fetherhd

With this bad an injury he most likely will always have a slightly enlarged knee. And there is an increased possibility of arthritis in the joint due to all of the inflammation. Having said this....I had a mare that kicked back and got her hind leg over the third strand of barbed wire on her fence. She basically stripped most of the skin off her leg from her stifle to her fetlock...there was tendon and cartilage shining through with just one or two strips of skin left...nothing there to stitch and no way to bandage the whole leg. put her on antibiotics and bute...scrubbed it clean twice a day and sprayed the hell out of it with furesol...took many MONTHS...but it healed up with just one or two scars and total use. Horses have an amazing ability to heal if given the support they need.


----------



## Teej

I've seen the neck cradles you can get for horses who want to bite or lick their wounds but have no idea where to find them. Him biting at it would not be a good thing because it can't heal.

I feel for your poor guy and for his humans too. It's frustrating when they fight you because they're tired of the treatment hurting them and we have to keep doing it anyway to get them better.


----------



## Molly Mckee

I think valley vet or Jeffers have the cradle, if you need on. I had one, if my kids haven't "borrowed"it, I could send it if it would help.


----------



## redgate

I have debated on using a neck cradle or even a bib. As you can probably understand, I am nervous about having ANYTHING left on him, as this whole accident may have been avoided. I still kick myself for breaking my own rule. That day was one of the few exceptions where I chose to leave his halter on him when I turned him out. 

In any case, a few thoughts/questions&#8230;.

He doesn't chew all the time or out of boredom. I suspect it is an itchiness thing. It's worst when we are hosing. We constantly have to pull his head away from his knee while hosing. When he gets frustrated, he bites the hose nozzle! The goof. Sometimes, though, he is fast enough, he reaches down and just nips off the top of that large bulge of tissue right at the top of the wound. Then it bleeds everywhere for a few minutes before stopping. Sometimes, we will find he did the same to another spot, or possibly just banged his knee on the stall railing or something, as there will be a "strawberry" looking area somewhere on the wound. So, first, I can't decide if it is worth preventing, since the knee is obviously still healing in spite of his antics. 

Second thought is whether he can reach his head down to the ground while wearing a cradle? He destroyed our manger (remember, at a ton, he can be extremely destructive!), so he is currently getting his hay in different areas of his stall to avoid putting anything into his stall that he could injure himself on. He has to be able to reach down and eat comfortably. 

Third thought is whether a bib might be more appropriate? It seems as though he could eat and drink as normal, but simply can't reach back to bite his wound. However, it means wearing a halter which scares me half to death! Certainly, I can get a leather one, but those don't come thin or cheap for draft horses! If a bib would work best, then would they fit him? I can only find them in "one size fits all", but I am assuming that means all light horses. Would it fit a big guy like this? I actually haven't measured his bit since I got him, but I think its probably 6.5-7 inches, if that helps. 

I've also considered trying to bandage again. He didn't mess it with too much while bandaged. Not sure how doable it is at this point, but I could try. I could probably only change it every 2 days at this point. Would that impede healing though, to close it up again?

Thanks in advance for the ideas!!


----------



## Teej

A bib would be an even better idea. Instead of springing for leather halter maybe you could fashion a halter out of twine which would break easily if he hung up. We used twine for everything back in the day lol, only thing that might be a problem is it being sturdy enough to hold the bib in place. I've never used a neck cradle so I don't know how well they can raise and lower their heads with them on. 

I'm not a wound coverer. I always think they heal faster when left to get air to them but if that's your only option.... 

I've only dealt with one bad leg injury over the years and our vet had us throw hydrated barn lime on it once a day. It would form a crust and every 3 days or so when the lime would quit sticking we had to soak to soften the crust and pick it off. Anytime the granulation started rising above skin surface then we mixed copper sulfate (I'm not going to swear on the copper compound as it's been many years but I think it was sulfate and it was in a powder form) with the lime and used that until granulation was back to skin surface then back to just the lime. Seems like it took 2 or 3 months before we didn't have to treat with lime anymore and then I put vaseline on it everyday to keep it soft and encourage hair growth. He healed with just a thin line of a scar going down his leg, no proud flesh, no permanent swelling, and no lameness.


----------



## aoconnor1

redgate said:


> I have debated on using a neck cradle or even a bib. As you can probably understand, I am nervous about having ANYTHING left on him, as this whole accident may have been avoided. I still kick myself for breaking my own rule. That day was one of the few exceptions where I chose to leave his halter on him when I turned him out.
> 
> In any case, a few thoughts/questionsâ¦.
> 
> He doesn't chew all the time or out of boredom. I suspect it is an itchiness thing. It's worst when we are hosing. We constantly have to pull his head away from his knee while hosing. When he gets frustrated, he bites the hose nozzle! The goof. Sometimes, though, he is fast enough, he reaches down and just nips off the top of that large bulge of tissue right at the top of the wound. Then it bleeds everywhere for a few minutes before stopping. Sometimes, we will find he did the same to another spot, or possibly just banged his knee on the stall railing or something, as there will be a "strawberry" looking area somewhere on the wound. So, first, I can't decide if it is worth preventing, since the knee is obviously still healing in spite of his antics.
> 
> Second thought is whether he can reach his head down to the ground while wearing a cradle? He destroyed our manger (remember, at a ton, he can be extremely destructive!), so he is currently getting his hay in different areas of his stall to avoid putting anything into his stall that he could injure himself on. He has to be able to reach down and eat comfortably.
> 
> Third thought is whether a bib might be more appropriate? It seems as though he could eat and drink as normal, but simply can't reach back to bite his wound. However, it means wearing a halter which scares me half to death! Certainly, I can get a leather one, but those don't come thin or cheap for draft horses! If a bib would work best, then would they fit him? I can only find them in "one size fits all", but I am assuming that means all light horses. Would it fit a big guy like this? I actually haven't measured his bit since I got him, but I think its probably 6.5-7 inches, if that helps.
> 
> I've also considered trying to bandage again. He didn't mess it with too much while bandaged. Not sure how doable it is at this point, but I could try. I could probably only change it every 2 days at this point. Would that impede healing though, to close it up again?
> 
> Thanks in advance for the ideas!!


Ok, first off, the wound looks quite good. You are doing a very good job! 

When my mare was attacked by a big cat several years ago, I tried a cradle and found it to be very dangerous. Every time she put her head down to eat it would slip forward and would choke her. I had it on correctly, but the thing wouldn't stay in place so I took it off her. In her case I was able to put a fly sheet on her and cover the wounds, they were higher up on her legs and chest than yours. Also, you could try using one only when hosing the wound off if that is his worst time. Could at least keep him from messing with it while you are working on him!

Bandaging would be good, but not sure if your boy would stand for it at this point? If he would, your best bet would be to try bandaging for a while. You can use Cortizone 10 on the wound pad you put on, it will take down the proud flesh or granulation tissue overnight. Much cheaper than vet products. You can also use it without bandaging, after you have hydro'd the wound you can let it dry really well, then apply the Cortizone 10 with a cotton makeup pad or similar. Use Alumashield spray to keep insects and debris off the wound. I know you are using the gel spray stuff, but it doesn't look like it is getting that job done on the granulation tissue. You don't want to let it keep growing as it will cause more scar tissue than you should have.

I use several things off and on to keep open wounds clean and healing. If I bandage it, then the Cortizone goes on the pad covering the wound every other bandage change. I use Neosporin every other time, on the pad, to help kill any bacteria that may try to grow. I make sure that every time I hydro, I get Chlorhexidine and get the wound very clean, then keep it as sterile as possible before bandaging again or spraying whatever I am going to use on an open wound. To really get the Chlorhexidine into the wound I would use the sprayer I mentioned in a previous post, the dial ones used to spray fertilizer that can be purchased at Walmart or similar. You out 2 oz in and dial it to a mix of 2 oz per gallon. Then hook up you hose to it and spray until the bottle runs clear water, then spray another few minutes to make sure it all rinses back out. That is the best way to get inside the wound with a good cleanser. 

You really are doing a great job, the wound doesn't look bad. It is very normal looking, though you should try to get a little more granulation tissue medication of some sort on there to break those edges down. If he is licking off the Wonder Dust it isn't helping him I have a couple who have done that, boy is it frustrating! Another thing you can use that may also deter his licking or chewing is Scarlet Oil. It is good for granulation tissue knock down, plus keeps the wound moist and the skin pliable for healing. It may keep his mouth off the wound as I believe it probably doesn't taste so good! I prefer not using Wonder Dust until later in treatment, I like to get the wound healing well before I start using it. I worry about it drying out the skin I WANT growing in as much as it is breaking down the granulation tissue. You could also try bitter apple spray to deter any chewing or licking. Just some ideas for you.

Keep up the good work


----------



## aoconnor1

I also want to say this...as far as your boy pitching a fit every time he gets worked on...he has figured out that everyone will leave him alone faster if he acts up while being treated. He is using his size to manipulate the situation to his benefit. Very normal, he is huge and knows it. He is aware that people around him are afraid of his size, and he uses it to get his way. If you can correct his behavior and let him know that under no uncertain terms his injury is GOING to be cleaned and cared for, he would hopefully allow it and behave for you. It takes a strong handler to correct a horse of his size, and I won't recommend it to you if you are even a little bit afraid of him because it will not work for you, but if it were me, I would correct that boy every time and let him figure out how to stand quietly while I am doctoring him or he will pay for it. I am fair with my horses, but I have 21 of them in one large herd that at times I have to move into and treat horses not on ties, and they had better by heck stand for me or I become the Alpha mare pretty danged quickly, and they do NOT want me to be the Alpha mare on them! I have large horses for the most part, I can calmly walk through my herd and pull out or doctor any one of them when necessary. 

Your boy, he is smart. Stop letting him make you rush through his treatments just because he says so or acts up. It is your job to get him treated, don't let him get away with his behavior. I suspect he did that to the vets as well, hence the (what sounds to me anyway) manhandling he probably received and the reason he was so upset when he came home. At the vets, he had a reason to hate them. At home, he better come to the understanding that you are the boss and he has to listen to you. It doesn't take anger or aggression towards him, but being firm and not letting him get his way is needed.

Please don't be offended at all, I am trying to help you help him It will be easier if he knows he has to stand patiently for you while you give that help...


----------



## redgate

aoconnor, I totally agree&#8230;.a horse should trust and be willing to accept what you do within reason. I do not have a fear of him, so that isn't a problem. A healthy respect, sure, but not fear. I used to train wild horses for the BLM and big draft crosses for the mounted police. He's still a gentle giant compared to some of them! I obviously don't know what exactly was done to him while at the clinic, but based on the little I saw, I think the techs were scared to death of him and he LEARNED how to manipulate them. After getting away with it for 2 weeks, he learned far more than I would've liked. In other circumstances, I am a big natural horsemanship (or whatever you want to call it) fan--make them work when they do the wrong thing, and make the right thing easy. In this case, my limitations are the fact he is so blasted big (and knows it), and I am on my own when a fight ensues. My husband has been a great help, but he managed to tear a tendon in both arms over the summer. So, if the horse acts up AT ALL, he cannot correct him sufficiently. I guess the third limitation I deal with is time. I spent over 3 hours a couple nights just working with him on approach/retreat to let me touch his leg all over. I still can't spread fly repellant or ointments on it. AFter 3 hours, there was some progress, but he wasn't as calm as I'd like. The weather forced me to end the session. Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of time to spend every day. So, we are taking it a day at a time. Realize, it isn't that he is kicking out or blowing up so much any more. A nice, solid collision with my training stick was pretty sufficient to end the "toss-the-rump-over-and-threaten-to-kick" issue. Now, it is a matter of pawing. The more upset he gets, or more nervous about what I am doing, the more he paws. As big as he is, a simple paw encompasses about 5 feet of ground! I was holding my hand on that leg until he relaxed the other night, and man was he flinging me all over the place! If you have a suggestion to stop the pawing, I am all ears!! He's always been a bit of a paw-er like at feeding time. He will stand almost perfectly still and patient when tied, though--for HOURS. It's pretty typical of a work horse to learn to stand and wait. It is when we approach and begin to work with his leg that he now paws--frantically! That is our biggest challenge. He has jabbed his knee into our bottles, hoses, and fingers, always freshening the wound and making it worse. That is why we weren't able to do the sutures until now, and still have to be extremely careful. One paw in the wrong direction, and he could jab himself. 

I hope all that makes sense. He isn't being "bad" or jumping around anymore--which is HUGE progress compared to when we brought him home. He just paws continually. Not sure what to do about that. I have actually tried tying his legs together to limit it think hobbles), but that totally didn't work. I think it made him feel trapped and he threatened to panic. He was fine if I stepped away, but started to panic if I approached. It just breaks my heart that he has lost so much trust in people through this. Kinda makes me think of the horse in "Horse Whisperer"--of course, not that bad, just lost all trust and now we have to regain the trust, heal the injury, and then regain more trust when we can move him around the pen.


----------



## aoconnor1

Lol! Are we related? I do Mustang rescue and training, and love my big draft crosses. I hear you, and I laughed out loud about the stick 

Not a lot of pawing issues here other than for feed. But what I have done in the past is an instant high level of foot work on their part every time they move while being trimmed, shod, or vetted. Backing up and abruptly disengaging their hind end has worked for me, but I have the benefit of working mine daily and usually from a young age. Not always though. I know in your situation that running him backwards could damage a lot wigh that wound...I have used a short crop and smacked a chest when necessary thiugh, always with a rebel yell attached to it. My neighbors think I'm nuts, but my vets, farriers, and dressage/reining trainers don't!!! 

Wish I could help you more, but at least know we are all praying for you guys down here


----------



## Irish Pixie

There's a huge difference between a horse that's being pissy and one that is in pain. Some slack should always be given to a horse in pain.


----------



## redgate

That's true, too, Irish Pixie, but in his case, for what we are doing to him (hosing, spraying, wanting to wrap, etc), there is no pain involved any longer. Sure, the wound itself is probable still tender, and he occasionally shows soreness when walking around. It is clearly a psychological thing at this point. He is so blasted frightened of what MIGHT happen, as soon as you lean over or point something toward his leg, he picks that foot up and starts pawing, pawing, pawing. The angrier and more frightened he gets, the more he paws. Once blindfolded, we can do a lot more with less pawing, but if he feels something touch his leg, then he gets nervous. Hope that makes sense. This is all foreign territory for us, that's for sure!!

aoconnor, I LOVE footwork! Groundwork is the solution to nearly every problem. I think that is my biggest frustration now is the almost complete inability to do groundwork. That is how I train. Now, I'm having to use more force, which I despise. A chain over the nose is something I have never used before, but it's the only thing that keeps him from having enough and walking off. Kinda like the old King Kong joke--"where does a 1 ton gorilla sit? Anywhere he wants!" That's the way I feel here. "Where does a 1 ton horse go? Anywhere he wants!" and whether I'm on the other end of the lead or not. I can't round pen him or do our usual circles to teach him to focus and stand there. I can only manhandle. The chain over the nose keeps him from dragging me off (which I managed to get to where we only use it about 1/2 the time now). A nice introduction to the training stick keeps the hips/back end under control. Hobbles of sorts have helped a little with the pawing, but it doesn't stop the movement, and I'm always afraid he will trip and fall right on that knee. Maybe I'll try the stick on the leg, but I am hesitant to associate any more pain with my presence. We have made so much progress. Just a frustrating situation all around! 

Some might say " just tie him and do what you have to do" but I should clarify that when they weigh this much, and stand this big, a panicked horse can pull a barn down! Our barn was not constructed for drafts (it was already here). We have plans, but they haven't happened yet. I can tie him to a point, but I can't risk him pulling my barn down. To give one example, when we bought these boys, while we were at the designed-for-drafts farm to pick them up, my other boy simply side stepped, and accidentally "bumped" his stall wall with his rump. Mind you, the stall wall was 2 side-by-side 2x8's, with a top rail of a 3x6. I'm talking a SERIOUS wall! Yet, my boy "bumped" it, and while it didn't faze him in the least, he blew an 8 inch chunk of wood out of the top rail, split the next boards down, and knocked out several of the baluster type posts in the upper dividers. My husband and I stood there with our jaws on the ground at the sheer power of that simple movement! So, the fact that my injured boy now eats off the ground in his stall because he destroyed his manger with a single bump is no surprise. Thus, what seems like a simple "paw" we are talking a LOT of power behind that paw, and you do NOT want to be in the way. When that hoof hits the ground, it leaves a 3 inch depression from the stomping, frightened force behind it. Understand that our setup is fine for a normal day to day work. We have cross ties, the horses stand fine and don't move much, don't pull back, etc. They are very well behaved. I don't want them to sound like monsters. All of this difficulty stems from the injury and his fear of being hurt again. Hope that makes sense.


----------



## Irish Pixie

It's only been a month, hasn't it? He's still in at least some pain. He has to be with that type of injury and where it is located. The area around a joint always takes a long time to heal.

How do you know it's just the anticipation of pain and not "real" pain? I'm curious.


----------



## aoconnor1

Irish Pixie said:


> It's only been a month, hasn't it? He's still in at least some pain. He has to be with that type of injury and where it is located. The area around a joint always takes a long time to heal.
> 
> How do you know it's just the anticipation of pain and not "real" pain? I'm curious.


Handling horses and knowing your horse long enough tells you what is pain and what is pissy. Her horse is reactionary at this point, regardless if the treatment at hand is painful or creates pain. It comes out in her description of his behavior...


----------



## Irish Pixie

aoconnor1 said:


> Handling horses and knowing your horse long enough tells you what is pain and what is pissy. Her horse is reactionary at this point, regardless if the treatment at hand is painful or creates pain. It comes out in her description of his behavior...


What's the difference? Painful injury or he's reacting to the pain of treatment? The horse is still in pain due to the injury, correct? You still must give a horse in pain a bit of slack. The gung ho "stand or you will be corrected" isn't justified in this situation, in my opinion. 

There's no way that a severe injury, over a joint, that was badly infected isn't painful a month later.


----------



## aoconnor1

Redgate, I love footwork as well. I do it for the first three years, then I step up and take it from there in the saddle. That is on a foal I raise. If it is an older horse I get in, I ground work for about 30 days, let them settle in, then actually leave them alone and let them become horses and to adjust to my other horses and find their place in the herd before I step up. Knowing their place in the herd, and learning about their behavior and reactions, helps me know in what direction I want to go with them and how I believe they will act under saddle. Though really, one can't ever fully tell until in the saddle, but I get a very good feel for them before that happens.

I have a 14 h off the range Mustang that is strong enough when he wants to be that he could do some serious damage to an aisle or stall should the desire arise. He has pushed through a 1 inch thick solid iron door slide just hitting it with his chest. He has gone over and through every panel I have put up. Houdini doesn't even begin to describe that smart aleck! Then to the other extreme I had a Percheron/TB cross gelding that was 16.3 and 1800 pounds, and that horse could flat footed jump a 4 foot fence without effort. There was no way I was going to test his pulling down a barn power! Right now I have a TB mare that is 17 h and 1500 pounds. She is a monster of a horse, great great grand daughter of Secretariat, and when SHE gets in a mood she is fierce. Heaven help the fence, panels, or stall walls that get in her path when she is on a tear, but thankfully, as she ages and settles down from the extreme abuse she suffered, she has stopped trying to kill wood. I also have a Friesian/TB filly that as a yearling, coming 2 in February, stands 15.1 already and is on the way to 17 at least. She is as sweet as they come though, which I bred carefully into her, so I worry less about her destruction of barn stalls, though she has a thing about stall gates that irritates me. She removes them. A lot! In what ever manner she is able!!

Ah well, the big guys, I love them. And the little guys too. My very first horse was an off the range Mustang my parents bought me when I was 9. My second horse was an off the track 6 year old TB gelding that stood 16.2, I was 11 when I got him. I think my parents were trying to get rid of me! Lol! But those two horses taught me a lifetime of information in the time I had each. It has kept me riding and training for over 40 years!!


----------



## aoconnor1

Irish Pixie said:


> What's the difference? Painful injury or he's reacting to the pain of treatment? The horse is still in pain due to the injury, correct? You still must give a horse in pain a bit of slack. The gung ho "stand or you will be corrected" isn't justified in this situation, in my opinion.
> 
> There's no way that a severe injury, over a joint, that was badly infected isn't painful a month later.


Ah, nope, requiring a horse to stand while they are being doctored is necessary for the horse's well being as well as for the safety of the handler. It isn't being gung ho or improper, but this boy weighs in at 2000 pounds and simply has to stand quietly to be handled and doctored so he makes as complete of a recovery as possible. I'm sorry, I am not a horse beater, I do however expect and at my ranch, receive, their cooperation when it is most needed to help them in any situation they may find themselves in that could cause them more pain or suffering than they would otherwise have.

I also was talking about my own horses when I said "if it were me", the OP agrees and actually trains and corrects in the same manner I do, so I referenced what would normally happen in that situation with a horse if I was handling it, except that with the injury her horse has it isn't possible as it could cause more damage to the already injured knee.

I don't mean to argue, and yes I do believe there is still probably some pain in his injury, but he knows by now that he has to have it tended to and he is not cooperating as he needs to to get the job done quickly and well.


----------



## aoconnor1

redgate said:


> That's true, too, Irish Pixie, but in his case, for what we are doing to him (hosing, spraying, wanting to wrap, etc), there is no pain involved any longer. Sure, the wound itself is probable still tender, and he occasionally shows soreness when walking around. It is clearly a psychological thing at this point. He is so blasted frightened of what MIGHT happen, as soon as you lean over or point something toward his leg, he picks that foot up and starts pawing, pawing, pawing. The angrier and more frightened he gets, the more he paws. Once blindfolded, we can do a lot more with less pawing, but if he feels something touch his leg, then he gets nervous. Hope that makes sense. This is all foreign territory for us, that's for sure!!
> 
> aoconnor, I LOVE footwork! Groundwork is the solution to nearly every problem. I think that is my biggest frustration now is the almost complete inability to do groundwork. That is how I train. Now, I'm having to use more force, which I despise. A chain over the nose is something I have never used before, but it's the only thing that keeps him from having enough and walking off. Kinda like the old King Kong joke--"where does a 1 ton gorilla sit? Anywhere he wants!" That's the way I feel here. "Where does a 1 ton horse go? Anywhere he wants!" and whether I'm on the other end of the lead or not. I can't round pen him or do our usual circles to teach him to focus and stand there. I can only manhandle. The chain over the nose keeps him from dragging me off (which I managed to get to where we only use it about 1/2 the time now). A nice introduction to the training stick keeps the hips/back end under control. Hobbles of sorts have helped a little with the pawing, but it doesn't stop the movement, and I'm always afraid he will trip and fall right on that knee. Maybe I'll try the stick on the leg, but I am hesitant to associate any more pain with my presence. We have made so much progress. Just a frustrating situation!"
> 
> 
> 
> Also, no, I wouldn't use hobbles, though I thought about it for a brief moment! That would be disastrous should he blow up on you. I haven't ever used them, wouldn't want to try it in your situation!!
> 
> I sure do know how frustrating it is. And believe me, mine aren't angels when they are hurt. Mine aren't 2000 pounds either! I have the benefit of smaller horses to have to doctor! It has to be so much harder with one of those truly giant boys...
Click to expand...


----------



## Irish Pixie

aoconnor1 said:


> Ah, nope, requiring a horse to stand while they are being doctored is necessary for the horse's well being as well as for the safety of the handler. It isn't being gung ho or improper, but this boy weighs in at 2000 pounds and simply has to stand quietly to be handled and doctored so he makes as complete of a recovery as possible. I'm sorry, I am not a horse beater, I do however expect and at my ranch, receive, their cooperation when it is most needed to help them in any situation they may find themselves in that could cause them more pain or suffering than they would otherwise have.
> 
> I also was talking about my own horses when I said "if it were me", the OP agrees and actually trains and corrects in the same manner I do, so I referenced what would normally happen in that situation with a horse if I was handling it, except that with the injury her horse has it isn't possible as it could cause more damage to the already injured knee.
> 
> I don't mean to argue, and yes I do believe there is still probably some pain in his injury, but he knows by now that he has to have it tended to and he is not cooperating as he needs to to get the job done quickly and well.


So, my opinion is just wrong? Huh. I wish I was so cocksure but I only have 40+ years in horses... maybe when I get more experience?

I'm not saying the horse doesn't have to stand for treatment, this is not a situation where he needs to "move his feet" or be corrected via additional pain. If he reacts that badly perhaps he'd respond to Calm n Cool, a twitch, stocks, a light sedative... something, really anything, to take his mind and anxiety off the pain and treatment, eh?


----------



## aoconnor1

Irish Pixie said:


> So, my opinion is just wrong? Huh. I wish I was so cocksure but I only have 40+ years in horses... maybe when I get more experience?
> 
> I'm not saying the horse doesn't have to stand for treatment, this is not a situation where he needs to "move his feet" or be corrected via additional pain. If he reacts that badly perhaps he'd respond to Calm n Cool, a twitch, stocks, a light sedative... something, really anything, to take his mind and anxiety off the pain and treatment, eh?


I don't twitch, drug, or otherwise, never have when treating an injury or under any other circumstance other than vet work when necessary, and never will. I said that he probably does have pain to some degree, but that as large as he is he has to allow the OP to effectively treat the wound and that requires him to be calm and obedient. As ANY horse ought to be. 

Look, I have no beef with you, but handling a horse of that size requires correction that is good for both horse and handler. If you disagree that is fine, but I don't believe in giving an animal of that size much leeway. And just sayin, I have 40 plus years under my belt as well, spent mostly rescuing broken, mentally and emotionally ruined, or castrophically injured horses of all breeds. They come to me from vets, sheriffs, and people in my community who know what I can and will do for the horse in need. I guess I am cock-sure about some things based on incredibly difficult cases that have been handed to me to deal with. Imagine tending catastrophic injuries on an already horribly abused, hateful or terrified 1500 pound animal that considers YOU the predator. If I can't get a horse still, it isn't just a pissy issue it is a life or death issue, and to help that horse it takes calm strength and certain correction, done without anger or malice or cruelty. Watch a herd sometime. When a lead mare or gelding corrects another horse in the herd it is swift and aggressive but without anger, and the offending horse stops the offensive behavior immediately and submits to that correction. It is no different for an owner who corrects a horse and expects a change in attitude. Not by beating or hitting the horse, but by moving it away from you intentionally to get it's mind in the right place.


----------



## Irish Pixie

aoconnor1 said:


> I don't twitch, drug, or otherwise, never have when treating an injury or under any other circumstance other than vet work when necessary, and never will. I said that he probably does have pain to some degree, but that as large as he is he has to allow the OP to effectively treat the wound and that requires him to be calm and obedient. As ANY horse ought to be.
> 
> Look, I have no beef with you, but handling a horse of that size requires correction that is good for both horse and handler. If you disagree that is fine, but I don't believe in giving an animal of that size much leeway.


Why won't you twitch or sedate? Twitches and sedation are tools to be used just like a round pen or a snaffle bit. Isn't this Vet work? I don't understand.

It's not a "one size fits all" like you're making it out to be. There are many different ways to get things done with horses. Even big horses deserve pain and anxiety relief, don't you think?

Using fear based tactics on an already anxious and in pain horse can push ANY horse into a dangerous one. I've seen it.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Irish Pixie said:


> Why won't you twitch or sedate? Twitches and sedation are tools to be used just like a round pen or a snaffle bit. Isn't this Vet work? I don't understand.
> 
> It's not a "one size fits all" like you're making it out to be. There are many different ways to get things done with horses. Even big horses deserve pain and anxiety relief, don't you think?
> 
> Using fear based tactics on an already anxious and in pain horse can push ANY horse into a dangerous one. I've seen it.


Very good post. I was beginning to worry that everyone here learned from a tv trainer from the last few posts on this thread


----------



## aoconnor1

Girl, I said that when I am treating a horse with an injury I don't twitch or sedate. I said my vet does when a horse is being worked on and they need to twitch or use sedation. Nothing with horses is all for one and it works every time; every single animal is different. I am talking about a specific situation here, not generalizing all situations. But at home, no, I have never had to twitch or sedate to treat any injury no matter the severity.


----------



## aoconnor1

Anyway, Redgate you are doing a great job. Keep up the good work.


----------



## aoconnor1

basketti said:


> Very good post. I was beginning to worry that everyone here learned from a tv trainer from the last few posts on this thread


Lol! Seriously? I follow my instinct, the things I know from training and observing horses for over 40 years. Funny thing is, I live 20 minutes away from Chris Cox, 45 minutes away from from Clinton Anderson, and next door to one of the top World Champion Reined Cow Horse competitors, but my vet, the sheriffs, and the people around here hit me up to take the hard cases. They don't even bother with those three top of the top trainers. And I take every call. I am no one and nothing, and am not into Natural Horseman crap, but am a real person who just takes em as they come and treats them with kindness and decency until they die. Do you? 

This isn't my thread. But the OP and I train similarly and I would like to applaud her for the hard work she has done for the BLM and on her farm with the drafts. It is not a pony club life, I guarantee you that!!


----------



## Lisa in WA

Oh sorry. Usually it's the TV trained "trainers" who know all the answers to everything.


----------



## redgate

OK, folks, the last thing I need here is accusations, arguments, and nasty debates. This is a thread I started for true help and ideas to help us through this situation. Irish Pixie, in the event you truly want to understand, I welcome you to go back through and read all MY posts on this thread, as well the original one I wrote. You will find that, as we have discovered, drafts react very differently than light horses. For example, a 2000 lb draft horse cannot be given more anesthetic than a light Arabian or it can kill him. We learned this through our experience. They are extremely sensitive. I was told by the vet to give him an injection. Not a problem, right? I have given hundreds of shots to light horses. As soon as that needle hit him, though, he flung me about 3 feet backwards by simply lifting his head and tossing it a little. He never even moved his feet. Until you have worked with one of these guys, you cannot understand. 

To answer your question more specifically, however, we have literally tried EVERYTHING we know of at this point. At the vet clinic for 2 straight weeks, he was sedated every 2 days, twitched (to the point he has a mark on his lip now), AND put in stocks, and as soon as the vet bent over to simply remove the bandage, he exploded and kicked up OVER the top of the stocks. The vet and techs saw how nice and kind he was when not being doctored, and loved him for it, but they reached a point they were happy to send him home. They were not horse trainers, and could not even get a halter on him at treatment time. The only day they were able to get a really great cleaning in was the day we gave permission to actually anesthetize him and lay him down--totally asleep for a minor surgery. Obviously, this cannot be done on a daily basis, and is particularly dangerous on these big, sensitive horses. After 2 weeks of sedation, the vet was even concerned about dosing with any type of basic sedative any longer. This week, he has told us to take him off everything except the bute to give his system a rest. 

So, to summarize, yes, we have tried all those options. Even 4-6 people and sedation AND a twitch could not hold this horse down when he got frightened of the pain. 

Furthermore, I never said he wasn't in pain. I said that what I was doing at this point was not causing pain. Simply running water down the leg does not cause pain. This is clearly obvious when he walks out to his water trough and splashes his water all over his leg for 20 minutes (hey, free hosing!!) Cutting a suture knot does not cause pain. We never touch him or even pull the sutures. He is frightened at the IDEA that we might cause pain. That is understandable, but, even as renowned trainer John Lyons states "your little finger is worth more than any horse!" Sometimes, as we have learned through this situation, you have to do what it takes to stay safe. Now, understand, I also NEVER said I was beating my horse. By no means. He is already familiar with a training stick and ground/foot work. We taught this when we bought them. He knows how to yield, and he understands that the pressure of the stick will increase to a pop until he yields or if he disobeyed something he already understands. I am also not afraid to remind him (or any horse) of it should they ever dare kick, bite, or otherwise act aggressively. So, if he gets upset with me during treatment and throws his hip/leg my way in a threatening kick, yes, I will use the stick to give a quick, firm pop as a reminder. It has only happened a couple of times, and it nips it in the bud. Sometimes, I just have to have that additional aid to mentally let him know I am still in charge. I guarantee you my little pop doesn't hurt him anywhere close to as much as when his 2100 pound brother gives him a swift kick in the gut with those dinner-plate size hooves! Yes, I am now using a chain if I have to, but it doesn't mean I am jerking him all over the place and being cruel. To the contrary, it is completely relaxed with no pressure. But, if he suddenly deciders he's had enough and throws his head upward (about 10 feet in this case, at his size), then rather than allow him to literally pull me off the ground, I allow him to simply run his own nose into that chain. It surprises him enough it seems to be the reminder he needs. For the record, I find twitches far more inhumane than a chain across the nose, so I am still using the minimum amount of pressure possible for the situation. 

I hope all that makes sense. Sometimes communicating in writing is difficult, as it is impossible to present the entire picture. I am happy to answer specific questions, or even try genuine, heartfelt suggestions. Please be careful how you judge however, when you know so little about our exact situation.


----------



## redgate

And as little side note, I don't even own a television!! ROFLOL!!


----------



## aoconnor1

Me neither, that's the funniest part!


----------



## aoconnor1

basketti said:


> Oh sorry. Usually it's the TV trained "trainers" who know all the answers to everything.


I don't know the answers to everything. But I actually carefully read the OP's posts and responded with clear advice, my opinion only advice, given the experience I have with treating and handling situations that are close to her own situation currently, and knowing from prior information in her posts that we have similar training and care thoughts. 

Redgate, you are doing a great job. I will keep saying that because you really are...it is a difficult, sad, situation you are in, and I am praying you find the strength and insight to deal with this as you have done so to date.


----------



## Irish Pixie

aoconnor1 said:


> Girl, I said that when I am treating a horse with an injury I don't twitch or sedate. I said my vet does when a horse is being worked on and they need to twitch or use sedation. Nothing with horses is all for one and it works every time; every single animal is different. I am talking about a specific situation here, not generalizing all situations. But at home, no, I have never had to twitch or sedate to treat any injury no matter the severity.


Who are you referring to when you say "Girl"? I hope it wasn't me because it's just condescending and rude to name call like that.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Redgate, I never said you weren't doing a good job. I'm sure you're giving your horse the best possible care that you can. I simply wanted to get it out there that there are many different ways to get things done. I personally don't think putting this horse, which you have already described as anxious, through more fear and anxiety based "move his feet or there will be consequences" techniques. It's very very easy to make a truly aggressive horse that way.


----------



## redgate

deleted due to being an off-topic question


----------



## aoconnor1

Irish Pixie said:


> Who are you referring to when you say "Girl"? I hope it wasn't me because it's just condescending and rude to name call like that.


I meant no offense. Where I live, it is a term of reaching out in a truce or friendship, not in a negative, demeaning way. However, I am quite certain at this point that you would take dang near everything I say and make it something it isn't, so however it sounded, you will believe. But no, my intent was to slow things down and proceed on a friendlier note. Not a condescending or rude way.


----------



## Irish Pixie

aoconnor1 said:


> I meant no offense. Where I live, it is a term of reaching out in a truce or friendship, not in a negative, demeaning way. However, I am quite certain at this point that you would take dang near everything I say and make it something it isn't, so however it sounded, you will believe. But no, my intent was to slow things down and proceed on a friendlier note. Not a condescending or rude way.


Thank you. I was hoping that you weren't being nasty. You didn't have to continue on with the passive aggressive nonsense tho.


----------



## aoconnor1

redgate said:


> aoconner, I would love to hear about what exactly you do with horses. The more I have learned about you and your relationship with your vets (which I still thank you and them soooo much for all the help!!), it sounds like you have quite the operation going. I'm just a gathering bits and pieces, though. Do you have a website or anything? I'd love to learn more. In other news, I can say, of all the light horses I've owned or trained for others, mustangs--particularly the wild, untouched, "clean slate" ones were by far my favorite. They became some of the most trustworthy and dependable horses I have ever had. That being said, I have to say that overall, my new favorite has become my gentle giants. These horses are absolutely incredible, and (unless, say, they have a major knee injury), they are the most sweet, even-tempered, gentle giants I have ever dealt with. I'm going to pm you a documentary that recently aired about our farm. If I'd know it would be aired on FOX network, I would have actually done my hair or put on a little makeup, but as it stands, it's very authentic! :shrug:


Let me answer in a separate thread. I don't want to hijack this one any further!! 

I am going to the documentary video in just a sec! How funny, you would have done your hair! Lol!! I don't always even get a shower before having to vet a bleeding horse! I just load up and head to the vets. Boy, they are the most polite people I have ever met just about...they never say a word about the, um, odor, 
emanating from my horse snot shirt and hair, horse slop and mud jeans, or even my horse and bird poop and piddle puddle boots! 

And I do love my big giants, too. Right now I only have my yearling cross filly (TB and Friesian), but I am on the hunt for another big Percheron gelding. I lost my big guy, the herd leader of all herd leaders, last summer our top gate was left open somehow overnight, and my big gelding jumped the cattle guard and got out on the Farm to Market road and was hit and killed by a truck. I have never had a horse like him, and may never find another, but I sure learned to love those big, gentle giants.


----------



## aoconnor1

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you. I was hoping that you weren't being nasty. You didn't have to continue on with the passive aggressive nonsense tho.


Do you ever just take an apology? The passive aggressive stuff, really? It was true though, wasn't it


----------



## Irish Pixie

aoconnor1 said:


> Do you ever just take an apology? The passive aggressive stuff, really? It was true though, wasn't it


Why sure I do, when it's really meant. 

This is getting tedious, my point is that everyone can have an opinion, there are many many ways of getting the required result, and know-it-all attitudes truly suck. 

There are a lot of horse woman (and men) on this forum that absolutely know what they're talking about. I imagine most of them have opinions on a variety of topics, and many times their opinion is worthwhile. I'll leave it at that.


----------



## OakHollowBoers

Hey, can we stick with the topic, please? I am interested in following the progress of the injury, and want to read it until the horse is back in work, but the bickering is starting to sound a bit like "another forum". Some will know the one I am talking about.

Redgate, thanks for the updates, it is looking better. I think you are right, the biting is because it itches. Wrapping it would help with that. I had a horse with a similar, but not nearly as severe injury. Once it started healing, only keeping it wrapped would keep his teeth off of it. Fortunately for me, mine was a much smaller horse who took well to being stalled. He lived for a month in 12' x 24', only walked out of the barn for hosing, then back in. But your guy's wound is looking better, keep up the good work and try not to get too frustrated.

I don't remember, have you tried bribery? Like offering treats if you can get a little closer, or a treat after ___?


----------



## redgate

Yes, tried bribery. Doesn't work. Unfortunately, his grain is the only "treat" he knows. We have tried apples, applesauce, carrots, molasses covered treats&#8230;.several things, but because he was amish raised and trained, he's never had anything except grain and hay. SImilar to our mustangs, you have to teach some horses to like treats, and we didn't get that done prior to this injury. Nonetheless, he happily eats&#8230;until we bend over to do something. Then, he just as happily forgets his food to deal with his fear. One day at a time, we will get through this.


----------



## Molly Mckee

I'm not really sure why it matters if a 120 pound woman is trying to make a 1200 pound horse co-operate or a 2000 pound horse behave, you can't force either one to do what you want. Neither can a 200 pound man. I don't see the difference in working with draft horses or light horses. They both are much stronger than you are, as well as much bigger. You had better have a plan other than force, because that is not going to work. A 17 hand light horse can put his head where you can't reach it as well as a 17 hand draft, and either one can kill you. It has always been my policy to avoid a fight I can't win so looking ahead and sedating a horse or using some means of avoiding a fight seems to make sense to me. Making a horse with a badly injured leg move his feet might be counter productive.

No matter how well trained and behaved a horse normally is, when it is in pain you can't expect it to react like it would under normal conditions. And when a horse has been handled by a number of people, some who either don't know how to handle the horse or are afraid of the horse, the horse may learn some things you wish he hadn't. But you work with what you have, and healing the leg right now is the most important thing. Reinforcing manners in a way that could hurt the leg should wait until it's healed, IMO.

And yes, I have had some draft horse experience, the ones I have worked with over the years have been pretty quiet and well trained, and I haven't had much experience with any that were hurt as badly as the one in the thread.


----------



## redgate

Molly, not sure if you were posting to me or to the forum in general. You are correct and I agree, but wanted to re-emphasize that a full draft responds differently to sedation. That is a key here. Several posters have brought up sedation, and I have tried to explain that is just doesn't work the same way. I have seen many a light horse (not my own) sedated for castration, injuries, fear, trailering, whatever. I was absolutely in shock when I saw how much fight this guy had in him even with a double dose (spaced out safely). Upon further inquiry, we learned it is a very typical issue. He was literally swaying, with his head hanging to the ground and drooling, but pawed and kicked out at the vet so much that the vet poked himself with the sutures TWICE, broke the suture thread 2 or 3 times, and could only make 2 knots in a zipper-style closure--hardly ideal. 

This is to the forum and not specifically Molly, but additionally, we are not dealing with a riding horse here. Unlike a riding horse or pet, that is trained to give to pressure and relax, we are dealing with a horse that has been trained his whole life to respond to pressure by leaning into it--especially on the front and rear of his body. When we pull a log, and they feel pressure, they lean harder into the collar. When we are going downhill with the wagon, they lean back into the breeching to hold the weight and slow the wagon. It's just the way it's done, and there's no way to avoid that. They learn their strength early in life, and they learn how and where to exert their power to get the desired outcome (to move an item). When they are pulling a plow and you are keeping them down in a furrow, the amish particularly, train to have constant pressure on the bit and headstall, so having simple pressure on the halter encourages him to pull. If he's had enough of his hosing session and decides he wants to walk away, he simply arches his neck (like wearing his collar and check rein), leans his face into the halter, gets his body weight behind the nose strap and just goes. It's how they've been taught. My 130 lbs hanging onto the rope is nothing to him. Hence, until I can "move his feet" again, I have to improvise to prevent that from happening any way I can. We have to find a compromise or balance in everything we do. We had just enough time to re-train somewhat and find a balance on yielding away from us using voice commands and pressure in certain areas of the body, and I have re trained them to not require constant bit pressure and respond to much lighter cues. I do believe that has helped in our current situation. I can't imagine what kind of a fight this would be if he leaned against pressure as hard as he did when we brought him home. 

Furthermore, there are little issues that are specific to the heavy horses. For example, most "equine" lead rope snaps are rated somewhere between 800-1500 lbs. I've had new horses come in that broke lead ROPES before they learned to tie, but I've never had a snap broken. The first week of this boy's injury split my heavy-duty snap right in half when he took one step back too many. So, yes, while any horse could kill someone or fight well, there are some differences with this type of horse that most posters have no experience with. That's why I asked that posters be cautious about judging when you may not understand every detail. This truly has been an interesting and educational, if frustrating experience. The only reason I really continue to share here is that there do seem to be some folks interested in learning from the experience themselves. I love learning from others as well, and never know when someone might offer a suggestion I haven't tried yet. I also enjoy reading the success stories have others have had similar BTDT situations (with light or heavy horses). Feel free to continue suggestions, just be cautious about accusing or condemning when you haven't BTDT.


----------



## Irish Pixie

redgate said:


> Molly, not sure if you were posting to me or to the forum in general. You are correct and I agree, but wanted to re-emphasize that a full draft responds differently to sedation. That is a key here. Several posters have brought up sedation, and I have tried to explain that is just doesn't work the same way. I have seen many a light horse (not my own) sedated for castration, injuries, fear, trailering, whatever. I was absolutely in shock when I saw how much fight this guy had in him even with a double dose (spaced out safely). Upon further inquiry, we learned it is a very typical issue. He was literally swaying, with his head hanging to the ground and drooling, but pawed and kicked out at the vet so much that the vet poked himself with the sutures TWICE, broke the suture thread 2 or 3 times, and could only make 2 knots in a zipper-style closure--hardly ideal.
> 
> This is to the forum and not specifically Molly, but additionally, we are not dealing with a riding horse here. Unlike a riding horse or pet, that is trained to give to pressure and relax, we are dealing with a horse that has been trained his whole life to respond to pressure by leaning into it--especially on the front and rear of his body. When we pull a log, and they feel pressure, they lean harder into the collar. When we are going downhill with the wagon, they lean back into the breeching to hold the weight and slow the wagon. It's just the way it's done, and there's no way to avoid that. They learn their strength early in life, and they learn how and where to exert their power to get the desired outcome (to move an item). When they are pulling a plow and you are keeping them down in a furrow, the amish particularly, train to have constant pressure on the bit and headstall, so having simple pressure on the halter encourages him to pull. If he's had enough of his hosing session and decides he wants to walk away, he simply arches his neck (like wearing his collar and check rein), leans his face into the halter, gets his body weight behind the nose strap and just goes. It's how they've been taught. My 130 lbs hanging onto the rope is nothing to him. Hence, until I can "move his feet" again, I have to improvise to prevent that from happening any way I can. We have to find a compromise or balance in everything we do. We had just enough time to re-train somewhat and find a balance on yielding away from us using voice commands and pressure in certain areas of the body, and I have re trained them to not require constant bit pressure and respond to much lighter cues. I do believe that has helped in our current situation. I can't imagine what kind of a fight this would be if he leaned against pressure as hard as he did when we brought him home.
> 
> Furthermore, there are little issues that are specific to the heavy horses. For example, most "equine" lead rope snaps are rated somewhere between 800-1500 lbs. I've had new horses come in that broke lead ROPES before they learned to tie, but I've never had a snap broken. The first week of this boy's injury split my heavy-duty snap right in half when he took one step back too many. So, yes, while any horse could kill someone or fight well, there are some differences with this type of horse that most posters have no experience with. That's why I asked that posters be cautious about judging when you may not understand every detail. This truly has been an interesting and educational, if frustrating experience. The only reason I really continue to share here is that there do seem to be some folks interested in learning from the experience themselves. I love learning from others as well, and never know when someone might offer a suggestion I haven't tried yet. I also enjoy reading the success stories have others have had similar BTDT situations (with light or heavy horses). Feel free to continue suggestions, just be cautious about accusing or condemning when you haven't BTDT.


You have brought up many many times that drafts don't handle sedation well. I have more experience with light horses, or draft crosses, than I do with full bloods, so I looked it up. I'm just not finding that information from any credible source. Draft horses can have issue with sedation, but more often they need less sedation than a light horse. 

This from "The Horse", "However, draft horses typically require less sedative than lighter horses. "A lot of that is due to their cold blood and slow metabolism, but also their demeanor," Stone says. "Most drafts are much more docile than the light horse." Stone usually sedates at 50-75% of the recommended dose, letting the horse's nature help determine dosage amount."

Do you have a link so I can read further, or is it something you've heard from a Vet or tech? I searched Cornell as well. I've seen scads of draft weanlings be castrated with sedation with absolutely no issue. I'm beginning to think it just may be this horse reacting to his situation rather than a breed wide phenomenon as you have indicated. I did have one OTTTB mare that could be a bissy pitch through sedation, but many many others that handled it perfectly.

Also, have you tried Calm n Cool or any feed through calming meds? Not all horses will respond to them, but it's worth a try to allay this horse's anxiety and fear. Have you tried different types of sedation? Ace is one of the most commonly used but it can cause behavior issues in some horses. 

Your horse's injury has been very well documented here, and is being read by a variety of people, it's imperative that what is said is generally true. If someone reads that drafts don't handle sedation well they will be less likely to sedate when it is needed, when in reality, it's _some_ drafts don't handle sedation well. 

Molly's right. Just because a horse is big doesn't make them any different to handle than a smaller horse. Any horse can kill you. You are never going to over power an 800 lb horse. Molly is spot on with this, "No matter how well trained and behaved a horse normally is, when it is in pain you can't expect it to react like it would under normal conditions. And when a horse has been handled by a number of people, some who either don't know how to handle the horse or are afraid of the horse, the horse may learn some things you wish he hadn't. But you work with what you have, and healing the leg right now is the most important thing. Reinforcing manners in a way that could hurt the leg should wait until it's healed, IMO." It's my opinion too that any type of correction on a anxious horse in pain should not be the fear based, "move your feet or you will suffer" type. 

How long have you had drafts? I think I read on your blog since last March? Do you have light horse experience? I can understand more about the "I have to do things differently because he's a "big horse" if your overall horse experience is a bit limited. Plus a well trained horse under saddle or in harness absolutely knows that he is supposed to do "this" now, but not under saddle or harness he is to do "that." They know the difference between "work mode" and "not work mode" or at least a well trained horse does. 

Also, no one has accused or condemned you of anything. From all accounts you have done your absolute best for your horse, and that's all you can do.


----------



## redgate

Well, for those of you who have followed this thread with interest, concern, and willingness to help, I thank you for suggestions and understanding. Unfortunately, it has taken a turn that I do not care for any longer. No one here knows anything about my experience, my set up, my training methods, etc. It was facts I just haven't gotten into, and frankly, a forum is an impossible place to explain ones self. Over the last day, I find myself on the defense when I have only asked for help. It has become a debate, where I feel folks are trying to convince me of things they have no experience with. It has become judgmental, accusatory, and downright snarky. It is not something I need to deal with when I am dealing with a great deal of stressful life circumstances completely aside from my horse issue. Irish Pixie, I admit, you have been the worst. Perhaps your efforts were sincere, but your approach has been nothing but judgmental and accusatory. You claim to not be accusing, but then in the same post make comments like "I looked it up. I'm just not finding that information from any credible source." "Do you have light horse experience? I can understand more about the "I have to do things differently because he's a "big horse" if your overall horse experience is a bit limited." I can assure you that anyone in their right mind would seek vet council and advice in a situation like this, rather than get all their info from a forum like this. You don't need to take it upon yourself to correct everyone here based on YOUR lack of experience with full drafts or this type of injury. The whole point here is that I have a horse with a severe injury that MUST be treated TWICE a day, but there are limitations in doing so. I sought ideas on that. I repeated myself because it seemed the post had gotten too long and folks weren't reading what I wrote. I'm done. I have better things to do than sit around defending myself to folks reading information on the internet, but having never discussed with vets or actual experts on the topic. Perhaps, if interest is there, I will return in a bit and start a new thread to start over. For now, though, I'm done. Once again, a small few have ruined it for all.


----------



## Irish Pixie

redgate said:


> Well, for those of you who have followed this thread with interest, concern, and willingness to help, I thank you for suggestions and understanding. Unfortunately, it has taken a turn that I do not care for any longer. No one here knows anything about my experience, my set up, my training methods, etc. It was facts I just haven't gotten into, and frankly, a forum is an impossible place to explain ones self. Over the last day, I find myself on the defense when I have only asked for help. It has become a debate, where I feel folks are trying to convince me of things they have no experience with. It has become judgmental, accusatory, and downright snarky. It is not something I need to deal with when I am dealing with a great deal of stressful life circumstances completely aside from my horse issue. Irish Pixie, I admit, you have been the worst. Perhaps your efforts were sincere, but your approach has been nothing but judgmental and accusatory. You claim to not be accusing, but then in the same post make comments like "I looked it up. I'm just not finding that information from any credible source." "Do you have light horse experience? I can understand more about the "I have to do things differently because he's a "big horse" if your overall horse experience is a bit limited." I can assure you that anyone in their right mind would seek vet council and advice in a situation like this, rather than get all their info from a forum like this. You don't need to take it upon yourself to correct everyone here based on YOUR lack of experience with full drafts or this type of injury. The whole point here is that I have a horse with a severe injury that MUST be treated TWICE a day, but there are limitations in doing so. I sought ideas on that. I repeated myself because it seemed the post had gotten too long and folks weren't reading what I wrote. I'm done. I have better things to do than sit around defending myself to folks reading information on the internet, but having never discussed with vets or actual experts on the topic. Perhaps, if interest is there, I will return in a bit and start a new thread to start over. For now, though, I'm done. Once again, a small few have ruined it for all.


Sigh. I'm sorry that my asking for clarification upset you. I'm simply trying to understand and give an informed opinion on the subject in which you asked for help.


----------



## Molly Mckee

I hope you will come back and let us know how things are going. As Irish Pixie said it is obvious that you are doing everything you can for your horse. I have had an Arab mare that didn't do sedation well, and it is a very real problem. But there are always new drugs and new protocols to consider---one of the great things about medicine today.
I do agree with Irish that one very important thing to keep in mind in all the forums is that often more unregistered people access them, and it is important IMO to keep that in mind, this may give someone hope or ideas to save their horse five years from now, especially since this thread is about draft horses and information about them is sometimes hard to find. 


http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## redgate

OK, again, for those of you interested in only the horse-related issue, I will start a new thread in a few days. 

Irish Pixie, I apologize if I was too sensitive, so assuming you are just a bit of a blunt person, I will indulge to hopefully answer your questions better. Throughout my posts, I have mentioned some of my experience with horses, which is why I also got the impression you haven't read through them. As a general rule, I do not post my experience because, especially on a forum, it is tough to find the balance. If I mention my qualifications, I am a "know it all." If I don't, I am a total newbie who has no idea what I am doing. I have found it easier to simply state the question and related facts, and go from there. However, because you have specifically asked about my experience, I will tell you. Please understand, that in doing so, I am NOT claiming to know everything. Far from it. I do however, love to learn, and from as many sources as possible. The more experience one can get under their belt, the better. I feel it makes one a better-rounded, better educated, and overall better person--whether specific to horses or not. An open mind can go a long way. 

I have over 20 years experience training, raising, and owning horses. I spent a number of years working as a vet tech, with a vet who handled horses. I have a degree in Equine Management and Training, and certification as an instructor and trainer for mounted police horses. I worked a show barn for quite a while, and received instruction in western pleasure, dressage, jumping, and trail. It didn't take long, however, for me to completely lose interest in dealing with the attitudes of the "typical" show barn mentality, and I went a different direction. I had a professional training business for a while, with a focus on troubled horses at times (of course, more often than not, the horse was fine--it was a "troubled" owner). While living out west, I trained "last-chance" wild horses for the BLM to make them adoptable. I also trained a number of draft crosses for the mounted police, rode for the Los Angeles County mounted sheriffs posse, taught clinics in sensory and horse communication, and gave riding lessons. I trained a PMU draft cross mare, and was a "mentor" for other wild horse adopters. I have closely studied Monty Roberts, Clinton Anderson, John Lyons, Josh Lyons, and Pat Parelli, while also familiarizing myself with Stacey Westfall and a few others, and had personal training under a Level 3 dressage instructor. While I have only owned my draft boys since March, I spent almost 2 years preparing myself and training for them. We attended clinics, had private instruction, and sought out experts around the nation to "learn from the best." They have been our sources for much of the information I have offered in these posts. 

Suffice it to say, I am no newbie to horses. A big, and very humbling lesson I have learned over the last couple of years is that work horses are very different than riding horses--not necessarily at the ground and communication level so much as HOW they are trained. I've also learned how the heavy horses specifically react very differently in stressful situations of all kinds than light horses. This can be a great thing most of the time, but it can also come back to bite you, like in our current situation. 

In regards to your continued emphasis on sedating my horse, even with calming pastes, I have already stated in a post that our vet has instructed us to give him NOTHING else except bute. He has had so many chemicals dumped into his system in the last 4 weeks, the vet is very concerned about side effects or toxins building up and causing other issues (i.e. ulcers, etc.). We can't do it. 

I hope that answers your questions, without sounding snarky, braggy, or know it all. Once again, though, I ask that in the future, you simply be careful with your wording and your approach. It can be a real turn-off to folks like me sincerely searching for help, when in fact someone like you, with 40+ (I think you said) years of experience may have a lot to offer.


----------



## Lisa in WA

redgate said:


> I have closely studied Monty Roberts, Clinton Anderson, John Lyons, Josh Lyons, and Pat Parelli, while also familiarizing myself with Stacey Westfall and a few others, and had personal training under a Level 3 dressage instructor.
> Suffice it to say, I am no newbie to horses. .


Those are the TV trainers. 
No dressage instructor would ever call themselves a "level 3" instructor and if they only ride or train up to third level, they shouldn't be calling themselves a dressage instructor. I've had BLM mustangs and am not familiar with the "last chance" program. What exactly is that? All of the BLM mustangs I know of that are up for adoption come completely untrained.


----------



## aoconnor1

basketti said:


> Those are the TV trainers.
> No dressage instructor would ever call themselves a "level 3" instructor and if they only ride or train up to third level, they shouldn't be calling themselves a dressage instructor. I've had BLM mustangs and am not familiar with the "last chance" program. What exactly is that? All of the BLM mustangs I know of that are up for adoption come completely untrained.


They may be on television now, but each one built a tremendous reputation first before they became tv trainers, which is how they became tv trainers.

Do you ride Dressage? Pony Club? My trainer is an upper 4th level trainer, judge, speaker, as well as clinician. She calls herself a Dressage trainer with up to upoer 4th level training available. She is very well known, so I guess maybe some of them do identify themselves at a level when asked.

I have known about the Last Chance program for years. BLM tries to get horses adopted, and having trainers get them handled in order to adopt more of them has been done for quite some time. 

Not sure why you are trying to discredit what redgate has said? She isn't making this stuff up!


----------



## Lisa in WA

I've ridden with dressage trainers for the past almost 30 years, my daughters were both in USPC for many years . There is no "upper 4th" level. Nor is 4th level considered an upper level. That starts at Prix St. George. My trainer is a successful Grand Prix rider and is a consistent winner at the FEI level. This terminology is consistent and unvaried internationally.

And no...dressage riders all know that as soon as someone says something like Level 3 or heaven forbid, upper level 4..... they are posing.

Not trying to discredit Redgate, but it's important not to pad your experience when people are looking at threads for info.


----------



## wr

I mentioned in a previous thread that horses in continual treatment will come to feel picked on and this kind of behaviour is not unusual. This is why I mentioned it was important to spend a certain amount of non treatment time with the horse. Brush, bathe, treats, anything that doesn't cause them to believe that you're going to show up just to cause discomfort. 

Treatment of a badly injured horse is just like anything else, it's also training them and the psychology behind the treatment is as significant as the actual treatment.


----------



## aoconnor1

basketti said:


> I've ridden with dressage trainers for the past almost 30 years, my daughters were both in USPC for many years . There is no "upper 4th" level. Nor is 4th level considered an upper level. That starts at Prix St. George. My trainer is a successful Grand Prix rider and is a consistent winner at the FEI level. This terminology is consistent and unvaried internationally.
> 
> And no...dressage riders all know that as soon as someone says something like Level 3 or heaven forbid, upper level 4..... they are posing.
> 
> Not trying to discredit Redgate, but it's important not to pad your experience when people are looking at threads for info.


Then I am the one using the wrong terminology, which for a Reiner ain't half bad! Nah, I asked my Dressage trainer how far she could take me and answer was as far up as I wanted to go. She mentiooned my mare has upper 4th level training, that's all. She has not ever posed. She has some of the top young eventers, dressage riders, and jumpers in the country under her right now, if anything it is myself that mis-understood the words.

I don't think that anyone is "padding" their experience, and to be so presumptious as to state that is quite rude. I am sure if you asked, refernces could easily be given to prove the experience true. My own included.


----------



## handymama

Well, this WAS a good thread, lol


----------



## aoconnor1

handymama said:


> Well, this WAS a good thread, lol


You're right! Sorry that I keep jumping in, it is redgates thread...


----------



## handymama

I just wanna know what happens to the horse lol y'all can fight and discuss credentials later


----------



## aoconnor1

Me too


----------



## goodhors

Redgate, If using sedation, you might want to avoid using Ace, for the side effect it can have on geldings or stallions of penile paralysis. Not common, but it does happen, and can occur during ANY use of Ace on the same horse who had no issue with it before.

Horse loses ability to retract the penis after being sedated with the Ace. In the cases I heard of, horse never got the retraction ability back.

I KNOW of three horses that were put down because of it, one a NICE breeding stallion.

So ASKING what medication is being used in a sedation situation, could prevent the problem ever happening. Again, not common, but it DOES happen. Ace had been used on those three male horses above, in previous situations, no problems. The last time Ace use caused issues, which were not fixable.


----------



## GrannyCarol

I want to add my vote for wanting to know how the horse is doing, I really feel for redgate and what she and her horse have been going through and am hoping he will be alright in the end.


----------



## Irish Pixie

I tested and passed Pony Club level B when I was 14 in 1976. I would have tested for A at that time but my club director wouldn't let anyone under 15 test for A regardless of skill. Due to family problems I was never able to test for level A. 

I was being paid to train other people's horses, and give lessons when I was 12, and made my living doing so until 2003 when I retired and started a small Warmblood breeding program. I sold the mares when the bottom dropped out of the market and just have two now. 

My granddaughter will be 4 next year and is horse crazy so I'll be coming out of retirement soon.


----------



## Teej

Redgate, have you discussed with your vet using a bute alternative? I had a mare with low ringbone and this

http://www.unitedvetequine.com/equine-pain/DC-Y-horse-pain-relief.asp

actually relieved her pain better than bute and with it being herbal there was no worry about the side effects of long term use. 

The only situation I could see with using it is that it does take 2 or 3 days to get built up in their system for full effect and directions say not to use along with bute so I don't know if those 2 or 3 days would cause your boy to be in too much pain.

Please do keep us updated on his recovery.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Teej said:


> Redgate, have you discussed with your vet using a bute alternative? I had a mare with low ringbone and this
> 
> http://www.unitedvetequine.com/equine-pain/DC-Y-horse-pain-relief.asp
> 
> actually relieved her pain better than bute and with it being herbal there was no worry about the side effects of long term use.
> 
> The only situation I could see with using it is that it does take 2 or 3 days to get built up in their system for full effect and directions say not to use along with bute so I don't know if those 2 or 3 days would cause your boy to be in too much pain.
> 
> Please do keep us updated on his recovery.


I was going to suggest a Bute alternative as well but didn't want to be accused of being "mean" again. 

I've never used the brand you do, but have used BL Solution and Pellets since they came on the market. They work, and there is a much much less chance of ulcers.


----------



## Irish Pixie

aoconnor1 said:


> They may be on television now, but each one built a tremendous reputation first before they became tv trainers, which is how they became tv trainers.


I dunno about that... I think they got their "reputation" from being on TV. All of the "natural horsemanship" stuff has been done for centuries. It just took a bunch of slick ad people a while to learn how to market it. 

I'd prefer a lot less gimmicks and more real training, and a whole lot less "cut a ways" in the filming... Who knows what has actually happened in all the cutting, slicing, and production work? It does all _look_ pretty.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Irish Pixie said:


> I dunno about that... I think they got their "reputation" from being on TV. All of the "natural horsemanship" stuff has been done for centuries. It just took a bunch of slick ad people a while to learn how to market it.
> 
> I'd prefer a lot less gimmicks and more real training, and a whole lot less "cut a ways" in the filming... Who knows what has actually happened in all the cutting, slicing, and production work? It does all _look_ pretty.


Absolutely agree.


----------



## aoconnor1

Irish Pixie said:


> I dunno about that... I think they got their "reputation" from being on TV. All of the "natural horsemanship" stuff has been done for centuries. It just took a bunch of slick ad people a while to learn how to market it.
> 
> I'd prefer a lot less gimmicks and more real training, and a whole lot less "cut a ways" in the filming... Who knows what has actually happened in all the cutting, slicing, and production work? It does all _look_ pretty.


Chris Cox has been in this area for many years, working up to what he is today. If his training wasn't successful, he would have been ratted out long ago. Clinton Anderson as well, though he wasn't in our area for a portion of that time. John Lyons has been training for years and years and has proven himself well. 

That being said, I think some of them are too much. I like ground work, but only so much before I step up and get in the saddle. Yes, too many gimmicks with some, but some of them really are decent trainers, and just because you don't train the way they do doesn't make them wrong and you right. There are many different ways to train horses, your preferred method may work for you, theirs works for them. I personally like a lot of some of what a few of them teach But not all, or much, do I follow, I do things my way and am happy with the results. To each his own as long as it doesn't injure or otherwise hurt the horse or the people using that particular method..

Now, can we take this to a new thread? You have hijacked redgates horse injury thread enough, and I have too.


----------



## Stonybrook

I just want to know how the horse is. I'm sure once he is healed and you are not having to doctor him all the time he will settle back down with time and regular care/handling.


----------



## Teej

Irish Pixie, the reason I chose this brand was due to the active ingredients. This is for the DC-Y


 MED-VET PHARMACEUTICALS
14101 WEST 62ND STREET, EDEN PRAIRIE, MN, 55346
Toll-Free: 800-366-8986 Fax: 952-934-6881 Website: www.medvetpharm.com Email: [email protected]







Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of the information published. However, it remains the responsibility of the readers to familiarize themselves with the product information contained on the USA product label or package insert. *DC-Y&#8482; (PELLET) DEVILS CLAW/YUCCA*
MVP
*PRODUCT FACTS:*
*ACTIVE INGREDIENTS PER: (1 oz serving)*
Yucca Schidigera Extract
2,500 mg
Devils Claw Extract
2,097 mg
Grape Seed Meal
1,700 mg
Boswellia Extract
500 mg
Cats Claw Herb Powder
280 mg
Turmeric Herb Powder
168 mg
Fever Few Herb Powder
112 mg
White Willow Bark Herb Powder
112 mg
*INACTIVE INGREDIENTS:*
Alfalfa meal, lignin sulfonate, natural and artificial flavors.
*CAUTIONS:*
Safe use in pregnant or nursing animals or animals intended for breeding has not been proven (Boswellia Extract, Cats Claw Herb Powder, Devils Claw Extract, Fever Few Herb Powder and Turmeric Herb Powder).
If animals condition worsens or does not improve, stop product administration and consult your veterinarian.
An examination from a veterinarian is recommended prior to using this product.
May be a GI irritant and is contraindicated for use in animals with gastric/duodenal ulcers (Devils Claw Extract and Turmeric Herb Powder).
Should not be used in conjunction with anticoagulant drugs (Grape Seed Meal and Turmeric Herb Powder).
Possible drug interactions with use of salicylate and NSAIDS; do not use in animals with platelet or bleeding disorders; when giving long term, use caution due to tannin content (White Willow Bark Herb Powder).
*For use in equine only.*
*DC-Y*&#8482; is recommended to help ease discomfort associated with normal daily exercise and activity.
*DIRECTIONS FOR USE:*
_(Enclosed measure approximates 1 oz based on density of product.)_
*Adult Horses (900-1,100 lbs):* Higher maintenance level, provide 1 oz daily. For lower maintenance level, provide 1/2 oz daily.
This level may be doubled for the first 14-21 days.

BL Pellets

This alfalfa-based pellet contains vitamin B-12, devil's claw, and yucca.











*ACTIVE INGREDIENTS *(Per 1 oz):
Devils Claw Extract.................350mg
Vitamin B-12...............................2mg

*Ingredients:
*Wheat Middlings, Alfalfa Meal, Dried Molasses, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mineral Oil, Devil&#8217;s Claw Root, Natural and Artificial Flavorings Added and Vitamin B-12 Supplement.

*Directions:
*For an average 1,100 lb horse, Feed 1 oz. (scoop enclosed) daily with the horse&#8217;s regular feed. Feed others according to body weight, less for smaller horses and ponies, and more for larger breeds. Safe use in pregnant mares has not yet been determined.
*10 lbs *Pelleted (160 servings) Costs approx 49Â¢ per serving.

Notice that while B-L lists yucca as an ingredient they must not use enough of it for it to be an active ingredient. That's a guess, I don't really know why they don't list it. I've had 2 different horses on DC-Y long term and it has never caused any problems at all. My old guy has been on it for about 4 years now, it helps his old age stiffness.


----------



## Spamela

Redgate, I am sorry that this thread took a turn like this. How unfortunate. And unecessary. 

Some people just do not know when to quit.

Good luck with your horse. Your doing a good job


----------



## Irish Pixie

redgate said:


> OK, again, for those of you interested in only the horse-related issue, I will start a new thread in a few days.


*Dang people, Redgate has already said she's starting a new thread...*


----------



## Irish Pixie

Thank you, Teej. I like that the DCY has more devil's claw, plus the other anti-inflammatories. 

I'm going to pick some up, the older OTTTB mare gets stiff when she comes off pasture and is stalled more in the fall/winter. I'd been giving her BL Pellets but I'm going to give this a try.


----------



## Irish Pixie

aoconnor1 said:


> Chris Cox has been in this area for many years, working up to what he is today. If his training wasn't successful, he would have been ratted out long ago. Clinton Anderson as well, though he wasn't in our area for a portion of that time. John Lyons has been training for years and years and has proven himself well.
> 
> That being said, I think some of them are too much. I like ground work, but only so much before I step up and get in the saddle. Yes, too many gimmicks with some, but some of them really are decent trainers, and just because you don't train the way they do doesn't make them wrong and you right. There are many different ways to train horses, your preferred method may work for you, theirs works for them. I personally like a lot of some of what a few of them teach But not all, or much, do I follow, I do things my way and am happy with the results. To each his own as long as it doesn't injure or otherwise hurt the horse or the people using that particular method..
> 
> Now, can we take this to a new thread? You have hijacked redgates horse injury thread enough, and I have too.


I do like Buck Brannaman (even tho he's selling gimmicky halters and such) because he was trained by Ray Hunt, who in turn, was mentored by Tom and Bill Dorrance. It's the Dorrance Brothers that defined "natural horsemanship" as we know it. 

I also like a less known trainer named Mark Rashid. He doesn't market any "new and improved gizmos" but his books are excellent. I don't watch any videos because they are pretty much fiction.


----------



## AngusLover

Back on topic: OP, Has your vet used (probably not if young) meat tenderizer on wounds such as this? It has worked amazingly well over the years for wounds like this on both cattle and horses on our ranch. Our old time vet had us do it to a wound like this and we were shocked at the result. 
My only concern is if the joint is open you would have to cover the opening to the joint with vaseline so the tenderizer doesn't get in. 
If there isn't feeling in the tissue it won't burn but if there is you might not want to go that route. 
Otherwise Panalog is a highly used wound treatment for this sort of injury. You can get it in larger volumes from your vet.
Just a thought.  Maybe something to talk to your vet about and research. 
Your doing a great job and have your hands full with this big guy. Hang in there!


----------



## AngusLover

Spamela said:


> Redgate, I am sorry that this thread took a turn like this. How unfortunate. And unecessary.
> 
> Some people just do not know when to quit.
> 
> Good luck with your horse. Your doing a good job



I agree. I hope people get a clue and respect the OP's wishes. 
Hope she comes back to update us.


----------



## Irish Pixie

DoubleR said:


> I agree. I hope people get a clue and respect the OP's wishes.
> Hope she comes back to update us.


Uh. She did.  Thread title: Major Progress!!


----------



## AngusLover

Irish Pixie said:


> Uh. She did.  Thread title: Major Progress!!



Thanks a bunch! I missed it!!!


----------



## DamnearaFarm

aoconnor1 said:


> Chris Cox has been in this area for many years, working up to what he is today. If his training wasn't successful, he would have been ratted out long ago. Clinton Anderson as well, though he wasn't in our area for a portion of that time. John Lyons has been training for years and years and has proven himself well.
> 
> That being said, I think some of them are too much. I like ground work, but only so much before I step up and get in the saddle. Yes, too many gimmicks with some, but some of them really are decent trainers, and just because you don't train the way they do doesn't make them wrong and you right. *There are many different ways to train horses, your preferred method may work for you, theirs works for them.* I personally like a lot of some of what a few of them teach But not all, or much, do I follow, I do things my way and am happy with the results. To each his own as long as it doesn't injure or otherwise hurt the horse or the people using that particular method..
> 
> Now, can we take this to a new thread? You have hijacked redgates horse injury thread enough, and I have too.


Just as there are many different ways to treat injuries......training/treatment/whatever should be tailored to the horse and the situation, NOT as a one size fits all. And that's what makes us love horses. If we wanted something that didn't think or feel for itself we would've all stuck with the 'quarter' horses outside WalMart.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you, Teej. I like that the DCY has more devil's claw, plus the other anti-inflammatories.
> 
> I'm going to pick some up, the older OTTTB mare gets stiff when she comes off pasture and is stalled more in the fall/winter. I'd been giving her BL Pellets but I'm going to give this a try.


I've had the mare on DCY for about 2 weeks now and it seems to have reached a peak much more quickly than the BL Pellets. She's comfortable now.

Thank you for the suggestion.


----------



## Teej

You're welcome. I started researching herbal pain/inflammation solutions when I had a mare develop ringbone. Bute did absolutely nothing for her. A few days on DC-Y and she was pasture/carting kids around at a walk sound. Been a fan of it ever since. And while it looks more expensive, since you can use a half dose for maintenance, in reality it's not.


----------

