# The true value of farm raised pork



## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

On another thread someone said about the price they charge for their pigs:

"This year I had a better idea of what it would cost, and am charging accordingly."

This statement deserves it's own thread.

I think that most people are just giving their pigs away. I have friends that say they are making money at 75 cents per pound but they haven't calculated their costs; if they would make an honest calculation they would find that they are basically feeding pigs for their customers.

It amazes me just how common this is. In many cases it is because they see what others are charging and try to undercut them. If we all would seriously consider the cost of raising pigs, even on pasture, I think we might be surprised just how much we are giving away. 

You just simply can't compare the quality of a farm raised pig with the pork that people buy in their grocery stores. With the price of feed as high as it is, what sense does it make to try and compete with the stores? It is better to work much harder at marketing and find those stores that want healthy pork, sell at farmer's markets, call restaurants, do your own butchering and sell at your farm, etc. If you are anything like me you have put a lot of very hard work and time into our herd and you deserve to be paid fairly. 

A depression in farm raised pork prices also makes it hard to convince new folks to do it. Wouldn't it be better to support a market that lets retired folks, small families, unemployed people, and others have a small business that pays their bills and lets them buy new clothes?

I think there needs to be a concerted effort to be more selfish; to respect our pigs by driving their value up. This gives all of us the income to invest in better facilities, home grown feed, and makes pig raising a respectable career. It is hard to convince customers that your pork is worth it; that healthy pork coming from healthy pigs that are allowed to live a natural life is worth supporting with their food dollars. If it just a hobby for you, then don't be concerned. But if you like raising pigs and making that your primary vocation, then find your market, breed to that capacity, and don't try to be cheaper than Farmer John down the road.

I am in the Ozarks, perhaps one of the cheapest regions in the country. But I sell out every litter, every butcher hog, and at prices just higher than others offer locally. If I can do it, you can too. We need to elevate our products to the niche level that they deserve. I'm not talking about Walter's level; I'm talking about slowly building demand for our pork and continuing to define true farm raised pork as the first choice for folks who want to provide healthy meat to their families.


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## bstuart29 (Jul 11, 2006)

I can see what ya getting at and made some good points and would in a way help families especially in rural areas but for me I'd rather made a little less to help someone out. I don't begrudge anyone from making a good profit but for me maybe it makes me feel quilty or selfish to charge all I can. I feel the same way about eggs, chickens or whatever. I'd rather be sure I could sell all and make less than get stuck with some of it. In the end everyone has to make the decision on what price to charge for their products and have to look in the mirror at the end of the day. Again if you can get more for yours that fine with me I just sharing my thoughts and how I personally would do it.


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

Well, thus far, other than the initial costs of buying my first pigs, I don't have much in them, other than the physical labor of putting up fences/huts for them......
My pigs are eating a bounty of good things for them(left over kitchen goods, garden veggies, goat's milk, orchard grass) none of which cost me anything.
I also feed them bread from Nicohol's Bakery($8 a truck load).
I plan to also feed them corn fodder(Sweet Corn stalks already cut and stored in the barn), winter squash(50 lbs. each), free carrots and potatoes.
Now, I paid, $1.25 lb. for my 3 York/Hamp guilts.
However, I'm not sure I'd feel right, charging that much for a finished product, considering my cost going into it.
The labor side of it, I don't mind, for I enjoy it....
Your thoughts, Brian?
Greg
Alger, Ohio


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

I understand that some people want to keep their prices low to help other people with their food bill. That is honorable. But consider the effect you are having on others who are trying to make a living doing this. When you keep your prices low you are making others lower their prices. You may be hurting people who really need the income from their pigs.

I guess it's the difference between raising hogs as a hobby and trying to make a living off of it. Help some people, hurt others.

ADDED: It bothers me that so many families must have off farm jobs to make it. There is a lack of respect in our market for small farmers and what they sacrifice to provide healthy food. We need to turn that around and all of our actions play a part in helping improve the value of small farms or helping to keep the value low.

Unless you can't help it, at least price your pork at or above the price that pork is sold for in the stores. Perhaps the people who buy at Walmart will consider buying their pork from a small farmer instead.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

It's not just hogs. In every industry there are people who under value their own time and contribution, do not understand the difference between a _quality_ product and any old product and they end up undercutting the market, misleading consumers and creating confusion and frustration in the market itself. 

Fortunately, there are consumers out there who _do_ understand the difference between high quality and low quality goods and who are willing to pay premium prices to get them. Even for food. It just takes a little marketing and brand building to be recognized as a provider of quality. 

I agree with you in that farmers _should_ be valuing well-raised, farm-fresh pork and charging accordingly for that product, Brian. But I guess maybe we see those who don't a little differently. If there weren't un-savvy farmers marketing lesser quality products for bargain basement prices who would my clients have to compare me to? Someone has to set the low bar the rest of us jump over. (And I say that only mostly tongue in cheek.  )


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## Ralph in N.E.Oh (Sep 14, 2006)

Buying good meat is like buying good oats ... If you want the ones that have already been through the horse...they are much cheaper!

Raise quality products, price them accordingly and develop a market. There are many people who want wholesome, safe food and are willing to pay for it. Soon your repeat business will let you know that all is well.


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## Shades of Gray (May 1, 2010)

I'm not in the hog market just yet, still building toward that, but around here this year people are getting anywhere from $50-75 for wieners, with $65 being the average. And I was told that this has been a good year. 
When I do it I'm going with Berkshires, I love the fact that they are a heritage breed, and that the pork is some of the best. Here's hoping it will work out because EVERYONE around here just has york/hamps and I'll have something different and gourmet to offer.


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## Looking4ewes (Apr 30, 2006)

Brian.

I heartily agree with your sentiment. I find undervalued pork offered frequently on CL. This is so sad. I just have to assume that it is a low quality farm-raised product, if offered so cheaply. 


Wendy


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== Perhaps the people who buy at Walmart will consider buying their pork from a small farmer instead. ===


Awful-Mart just had a recall on some of their meat products.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

I agree, HeritagePigs. The good news is that people who undersell themselves don't do it for long and they often don't produce a very good product.

I have people come to me and say, "I can get piglets cheaper from Mr. X." I tell them to go ahead. They tend to come back to me next year because the piglets weren't good, didn't grow well and Mr. X is no longer doing it. Generally these same people fail to make a reservation and end up getting their pigs late in the season because of this.

Same thing on fresh pork. We're in it for the long haul. We've established ourselves with a lot of customers including individuals, stores and restaurants. We deliver fresh weekly. That is what the stores and restaurants need. Time to time, someone tries to undercut us on price but they don't last and the quality is not there so the customers return to us. We have a wide enough customer base that we just keep doing a good job and charge accordingly. I'm not going to play the undercutting game.

I produce a quality product and it sells itself year after year.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

bstuart29 said:


> I don't begrudge anyone from making a good profit but for me maybe it makes me feel quilty or selfish to charge all I can.


I think there's a big difference between a reasonable profit and "charging all you can". Profit is a measure of value. As Joel Salatin said in _You can Farm_, "you might as well do nothing for nothing, as something for nothing". 



bstuart29 said:


> I'd rather be sure I could sell all and make less than get stuck with some of it.


I find that in the long run, that's a good way to continue scraping by. Good food is worth what it costs to produce, plus a profit that will cover the labor. The problem with selling cheaper in order to sell out is that it sends the message that your anxious to get rid of it, and the customer might think that if they'll wait long enough they'll get a cheap price next time also. Personally, I stick to a reasonable price on what I produce and don't run specials. If I do have too much, pigs are good at eating the excess. If it's pork that is the excess, I'll give it to someone that I know is truly needy. If you're simply raising food as a labor of love, that's fine, but as stated earlier, don't shoot yourself in the foot price wise. If it's a business, it must be treated as such. Why should farmers work harder for less pay?


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

About two years ago I was sitting in a chamber of commerce meeting with an elderly and dearly beloved state senator. He is a champion of agriculture, and a master politician. He is also a bee keeper. He produces alot, and I mean alot of honey in a year. He told us that in the last 40 years he has never sold a drop of honey. He goes in the hole 5000 dollars ever year, but he still believes the honey should not be sold. Every drop is given away with a label saying a gift from a friend to a friend. His name or address does not appear anywhere on the label. It is an annual tradition in the business and political community to brag about getting one of these gifts. I put store bought honey back in the mason jar and proudly put in on the counter where guest can see the prize. I later asked him if he placed a value on that honey in contrast to his political success. He said, %^&^ boy, I'm not that good of a politician, but if they vote me out I'll stop making honey for them.

I have sense spent alot of time studying the practice of gift marketing....My family has decided we will never again sell another food product off the farm again. No milk, No eggs, No pork, No fruit.... It's all given away.

Last christmas was the first run, all the hogs where cut into hams and sausage. By giving it away I could use amish smokehouses and avoid the usda mess. No stress, No fuss over price and non stop fun. 2010 has been the best year our business has ever had. This christmas we are going to give away twice as much. Farming is more fun when you plan to lose money....because you will always meet that goal.


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

You ever thought, that your higher prices make it prohibitive for others wishing to get into farming?
The MAIN reason a lot of folks get into raising pigs to begin with is thought of putting some pork on their kitchen tables that they know where it comes from.
The side benefit, is the sale of extra feeder pigs at reasonable prices.
If I were to be blessed enough to have 30 piglets from my soon to be 3 sows, and sold each "feeder pig" for $30 each, I would more than cover my start up costs, plus have an extra income.
Please tell me where this would be wrong?
In fact, I believe this is where Walter got his start.
"Keep the best, eat the rest".
Greg,
Alger, Ohio


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

PotBellyPigs said:


> You ever thought, that your higher prices make it prohibitive for others wishing to get into farming?


I fail to see how that would be. If you can undercut the competition, go for it. Now, not all product is the same... and some customers are willing to pay more for the difference. But if you can actually make a living doing it, why not? Nobody said don't do that. What I _think_ this thread is about, is knowing both your costs and the value of your time/labor.



PotBellyPigs said:


> The MAIN reason a lot of folks get into raising pigs to begin with is thought of putting some pork on their kitchen tables that they know where it comes from.


An excellent reason. 



PotBellyPigs said:


> The side benefit, is the sale of extra feeder pigs at reasonable prices.
> If I were to be blessed enough to have 30 piglets from my soon to be 3 sows, and sold each "feeder pig" for $30 each, I would more than cover my start up costs, plus have an extra income.
> Please tell me where this would be wrong?


It's not. As I said, making a profit is great. Many people though, seem to have a complex about farming, "farming don't pay". So they don't even try. And in so doing, they perpetuate the myth.

Personally, I believe that quality food is worth what it costs to produce. It's better for us personally, better for the local economy, better for the earth. It is sustainable in the truest sense of the word.


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

Gabriel said:


> I fail to see how that would be.
> 
> You don't think a pig costing $150-500 would be cost prohibitive to one starting out?
> 
> ...


And what is to constitute quality food?
Is it those raised upon mainly grain from the mill or is those raised upon grass pasture, garden veggies, milk (from my goats),kitchen scraps(still edible for us, but we don't wish to eat them a 3rd time), and bread from Nicohol's Bakery @ $8 a truck load?


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

What this thread is about is the erosion in farm income and the resulting loss of small farms, caused and continued by small farmers themselves. 

This is nothing new. Farm Aid has been highlighting this problem since 1985 and how much have small farm markets improved? People say that they support small farmers then they go around looking for the cheapest product. Small farmers say they support small farming then they cut their prices trying to out compete the other farmers.

This is hypocrisy.

If you are only raising pigs for your happiness; if you have other income and don't need income from your pigs; if you feel that charity is more valuable than helping small farmers, then I am happy for you.

But the point of this thread is for those of you who do this as a business, even a part time business, *stop selling low*. You are hurting other small farmers who need income from the pigs to make it and stay farmers. You are discouraging others from choosing to produce good food. And you are only helping the industrial pork producers who don't give a ---- about you and are providing antibiotic laden, bland pork while treating their pigs as if they were cogs in a machine. 

So if you ask what is wrong with selling your pork or pigs at very low prices (assuming you aren't just raising pigs for the kicks) my answer is that you are hurting our nation's small farmers. You are continuing the damage to our food supply. You are encouraging suburban sprawl due to land for housing being more valuable than land for farming. 

25 years of Farm Aid is far too long.


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

heritge... I have a question. Where did the big farms come from that hurt these small farms??

I would say they were yesterdays small farmers who did it better and smarter.

They all started small farmers.... The cream rose to the top over 200 years.

That being said are you selling pork or politics?

If zxyPORKcorp set up on 2000 acres next to you and planted the most lush green paddocks and rotated 500 heritage sows and produced quality pork....

should their pork be undervalued by the customer compared to yours.

If it should be... I ask, are you placing a value on the pork or the politics.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Redhogs, you know enough about me to know that I am not political. I don't lobby for laws or assistance from Government. I despise politicians. Why would we ever want someone who wants to be in power to have power over us? And if I met the one you spoke about I would ask him if by giving away honey, probably to generate votes, does he feel guilty for making it hard for his constituents that are trying to make a living from their honey sales?

"The cream of the crop"? Are you kidding? Are we to praise large producers who got that way by putting small producers out of business?

I believe that any corporation that raises hogs, regardless of their management practices, will continue to assist the decline of small farms. Their profits go to stockholders. Without a doubt, the stockholders would demand that their margins continue to rise which would make the Board of Directors make decisions that do not, in any way, benefit small farmers. Even if they source from small farms there would be continual pressure for their suppliers (small farmers) to lower their prices. Just ask the people around me that try to live off of chicken farms. And look at what that has done.

Yes, any corporate food should be the last choice of consumers. Their first choice should be raising it themselves or buying from small farmers.

I'm curious, if you are giving everything away that your farm produces, how could this year be your best? Surely I am not reading your meaning correctly.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

RedHogs said:


> If zxyPORKcorp set up on 2000 acres next to you and planted the most lush green paddocks and rotated 500 heritage sows and produced quality pork....


Don't pick on me. I charge a premium for a premium quality pork. I'm not under selling... Besides, I only have 1,000 acres and 250 pigs...so far. I have my eye on 5,000 more acres next door.

Seriously though, the problem with Big Ag is they are subsidized by the government. Kick the supports out from under them and they can't make it. Big Ag without a subsidy can't compete with small farmers like me who've been doing it for years without the subsidies. They waste too much money and produce inferior product. I would love to see them setup pasturing. It would be good.

The problem with the hobby ag that undersells is exactly what Heritage is saying. But I don't worry about them because they don't last. They're here today, gone tomorrow. We're in it for the long run.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

I have people come to me and say, "I can get piglets cheaper from Mr. X." I tell them to go ahead. They tend to come back to me next year because the piglets weren't good, didn't grow well and Mr. X is no longer doing it. Generally these same people fail to make a reservation and end up getting their pigs late in the season because of this.
[/QUOTE]

I got my pigs late, not because I didn't reserve them, but because they are very hard to come by, here in Ohio.
Three of them, are show quality, with already decidedly large and well defined rear hams............
The guilts are long, with a very nice milk bar, and the boar is very bulky already.
These should produce VERY nice piglets.
My question, I guess should be, is $30 a feeder piglet for York/Hamp. crosses too low?
In fact, no one really answered my first question.
Greg,
Alger, Ohio


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

PBP, in my area normal cross piglets sell for $50 to $80. Mature cross pigs sell for about 75 to 100 cents per pound.


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

> I'm curious, if you are giving everything away that your farm produces, how could this year be your best? Surely I am not reading your meaning correctly.


I said my business, I'm a broker...I farm to wind down in the evening. I said I give away all of our food products.....we don't sell hogs or meat to individual customers, we sell only to other farmers or auctions.

we sell some breeding stock and fair pigs... but that usually just covers cost for AI and new bloodline purchases....

My point is heritage....this big vs small is very political in nature....

If the product is the same. If the big does it just like you.... The price should be the same....any difference in price is paying for politics not product...

I have real problems with politics in farming. I define that as the "my way or the highway" style of farming.

Corporate farming is just as entitled to farm as you.... the customer decides who gets their dollars. small farms fail when they fail to meet the needs of their customers.... no is to blame, no one is at fault.

This nation has a *heritage* of holding up that principle....that principle is the USA embodied in free choice.


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## bstuart29 (Jul 11, 2006)

For me if I was buying I'd never pay those prices so if I sold them for such would that not be hypocrisy on my part. A lot of it has to do with my frugal nature.


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

HeritagePigs said:


> PBP, in my area normal cross piglets sell for $50 to $80. Mature cross pigs sell for about 75 to 100 cents per pound.


Thanks Brian.
At least now, I got some idea what cross piglets SHOULD sell for.
However, my average buying price was $40.
And that was a good thing too, for I do not have a whole lot of money to blow.
Now had I had to have paid $80 each, I doubt seriously that I would have even had pigs to begin with, thus being discouraged to start this small farm(which now, is a hobby, but hoping to build it into a retirement income).
That is what I tried to point out about Heritage Pigs.
Way to high priced, thus the small guy can't afford to get into it, thus they remain rare.
Unless the prices come down, they will go extinct, in favor of cheaper stock, that a fellow can invest in, yet still make money on.
In fact, from what I can see, this is exactly what has happened, here in Ohio, with Corporate Ag running thousands of crosses under one building.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

I work in the commercial swine industry and help swine producers produce several million head of market hogs each year. They are in the commodity business where cost minimization coupled with optimum performance are paramount.

I also have several small niche producers that produce pork for retail sales. While costs are important to them, providing a story coupled with a product of perceived superiority are the driving factors in there businesses.

If you choose to be a small niche producer you need to Tell Your Story, then Sell Your Story. That will allow you to sell your product for much more than the pork sold through grocery stores.

If your story is "Each pig gets petted and scratched everyday" then capitalize on it. The consumer that desires to purchase from the small farmer does so for a variety of reasons, fortunately cost is not one of them, so take the opportunity to Sell the Story for added revenues.

Of course I'd want you to use truthful statements of your product and the commodity pork producers. There are enough instances of negative pressures on farmers of all sizes from outside forces, we don't need to fuel the fires from the inside.
Jim


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

highlands said:


> Seriously though, the problem with Big Ag is they are subsidized by the government. Kick the supports out from under them and they can't make it. Big Ag without a subsidy can't compete with small farmers like me who've been doing it for years without the subsidies. They waste too much money and produce inferior product. I would love to see them setup pasturing. It would be good.


Meat Producers do not received direct subsidies from the USDA. They may reap the benefits of cheap corn when the prices fall below the LDP, but that hasn't happened for several years. In fact, the pork complex has been in a negative equity position from late 2007 through this past spring.

I do agree that subsidies should be removed from Agriculture similar to what was accomplished in New Zealand. Based on all the information I have been getting about the 2012 Farm Bill we may come closer to no subisidies very soon. 

Jim


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

RedHogs, I knew that I misunderstood what you were saying. Thanks for helping me understand your business better. I applaud you for your generosity but caution to be careful that, in doing so, you are not taking sales away from small farmers. It sounds like you are not.

I agree that Big vs Small is political, at least for some people. Big has caused our food market to be very favorable to Big at the expense of Small, that is true. But we can't compete with Big; we shouldn't even try because their requirements, "cost minimization coupled with optimum performance" just erodes the value of pork and leads to a "vanilla" product. As a heritage hog breeder, I also know that Big has caused the loss and near loss of many valuable breeds with very critical traits. But I am not lobbying for political solutions to these problems.

My "political" cause, if I have one, is that small farmers need to stop hurting each other; "Small vs Small". Our mission should be a growth of markets for our pork with helping each other continue to stay in the business. Making competitors of each other doesn't help.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

PBP, you shouldn't compare the average price for pigs between your region and mine. $40 for you may be $80 for me or it may be $20. My point is that if you are at the lower end of your local range then you should reconsider (if you do this for the income).

What I do is compare the prices within my region. I price my pigs at the upper end of that range. I don't sell out as quickly as others but I do sell out. The message to my friends locally is that there is a market out there that will support higher prices; therefore they are undervaluing their pigs and their work and limiting their ability to improve. It may take longer to sell their pigs but by pricing their product at or near the market limit they are helping other small farmers.

(NOTE: My program includes a lower cost for feed than people who full feed their pigs. My costs are lower as I let the pigs harvest the pasture and woods during the growing season. Certainly if you pen your pigs and have to pay for all of their feed then it may not make sense to keep feeding them longer. But, my advice for them is to find ways to lower their feed cost instead of sacrificing revenue.)

As for higher prices limiting folk's ability to enter the business, you may be right but, at least for cross pigs, if $20 per pig difference keeps someone from getting started then they aren't ready. They need to ensure their family's needs are covered first, fully understand the costs of raising pigs and get started only when loss of their investment in pigs will not hurt their family. Keeping prices higher actually helps those who can afford their first breeding pair as the revenue from their litters will be better.


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## Curtis B (Aug 15, 2008)

Lazy J said:


> Meat Producers do not received direct subsidies from the USDA. They may reap the benefits of cheap corn when the prices fall below the LDP, but that hasn't happened for several years. _ *In fact, the pork complex has been in a negative equity position from late 2007 through this past spring.[/I*]
> 
> Jim_


_

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but doesn't this mean they have been operating in the red since 2007? I know many companies can handle operating w/o profit for a bit, but you are saying they have been loosing money for 3 years!!! It seems that they doing what Heritage Pigs is talking about and undercuting the smaller producer (most farmers couldn't go that long) to get rid of them. Otherwise they would get out, meaning fewer producers, and then driving the price up through supply and demand. Right?_


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Just FYI, Curtis, two of our nation's large pork producers are or have been bought out by Corporations in China and Brazil.


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## RWBlue01 (Aug 11, 2010)

I am going to post this as someone who has never raised pigs so you know how the outsider sees it.

General Business:
âGetting all you canâ, could be taken as âWhen I find you vulnerable, I will charge you 10 times as muchâ. The usual response is, you may screw me once, but I now you are fair game to be screwed over by everyone I know. It is generally bad practice unless you have a monopoly or only plan on selling and then running away.

âGive it awayâ, is almost as bad. If you are giving away an item, unless the other person knows it is a gift, no one will respect you and you are undercutting the people who are trying to make a living.

As usual, the middle ground is better. Ask a fair price, get a fair price, get a return customer.

Talking about the customer:
I hope you are all discriminating shoppers. I hope you look at the value when you make a purchase. You donât just go to the first car dealer and buy the first car you see. You check out the vehicles and then try to negotiate the best deal you can find for the car with the features you want. I think the same should happen at the grocery store, farmers market, and even when dealing with farmers directly.

How to improve profits for pig farmers:
I am going to make some assumptions. I need you to fill in some gaps in my knowledge.
The big corporations can farm cheaper than the small guy?
The animals produced by the little guy are actually healthier and healthier to eat?
You can not expect the consumers to pay more unless they understand the benefits.

Since this is turning into a somewhat political discussion.
I donât like subsidizing anything. If you can not make a profit doing it, it is a hobby not a job. If it is a corporation doing something and not making a profit, it is time to get out of the business (not get subsidies from the gov.). If you are too big to fail, you are too big. You can tell when a politician is lying, just watch his/her lips. If they are moving he/she is lying. You can say youâre an X, but if your actions do not support it you are just giving Xs a bad name. (Insert Christian, Muslim, Hindu or any other religion as X)


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

HeritagePigs said:


> As for higher prices limiting folk's ability to enter the business, you may be right but, at least for cross pigs, if $20 per pig difference keeps someone from getting started then they aren't ready. They need to ensure their family's needs are covered first, fully understand the costs of raising pigs and get started only when loss of their investment in pigs will not hurt their family. Keeping prices higher actually helps those who can afford their first breeding pair as the revenue from their litters will be better.


As I have $160 wrapped up in 3 York/Hamp guilts and 1 boar, and $110 wrapped up in 2 Pot Belly guilts and 2 boars, I'd say that is correct.
I imagine that you are charging much higher than $27-$40 average for your feeder pigs, correct?
In fact, a lady on here, has for sale, Tamworth piglets for $75 each(not counting shipping, and insurance).
So, therefore, we are speaking of much more than $20 a pig.
This is prohibitive to species longevity, as the American wage has gone done drastically.


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

RWBlue01 said:


> As usual, the middle ground is better. Ask a fair price, get a fair price, get a return customer.
> 
> How to improve profits for pig farmers:
> I am going to make some assumptions. I need you to fill in some gaps in my knowledge.
> ...


I can agree with much of what you're saying.
A fair price would be to get equal to, or above what I have in my small herd.
Big Corp. DO get off cheaper by buying in bulk, thus can indeed produce a product under controlled conditions much cheaper.
HOWEVER, I think pigs do better, and are healthier when pasture is available to them.
My old(its a reprint) 1927 Ag. book highly recommends feeding pigs on pasture.
I don't know, that ALL the "little guys" produce a superior product.
And you're correct, that "psuedo Christians" make all Christians look bad....


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Curtis B said:


> Maybe I am misunderstanding, but doesn't this mean they have been operating in the red since 2007? I know many companies can handle operating w/o profit for a bit, but you are saying they have been loosing money for 3 years!!! It seems that they doing what Heritage Pigs is talking about and undercuting the smaller producer (most farmers couldn't go that long) to get rid of them. Otherwise they would get out, meaning fewer producers, and then driving the price up through supply and demand. Right?


Yes, on average, the pork producers have lost money for three years. Most of them relied upon equity in their operations to continue to produce pork. Diversified operations relied upon the grain portion of their operations to subsidize the pork portion, in most operations the pork enterprises paid for the grain operations previously. Some sold out, some changed to contract production, a few actually went bankrupt.

Some of my customers did a very good job of contracting sales so they were selling their hogs for more than the prevailing cash market prices. I have some other customers that prepurchased their feed inputs and avoided the extreme highs of the recent past.

Jim


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

PBP, I sell my heritage cross piglets for $60 to $80 depending upon the breeds that the cross came from, occasionally lower due to market needs. Normal modern breed crosses sell for as low as $30 and as high as $80.

My $20 dollar example was not total price; it was meant to be the additional price that would keep someone from being able to purchase a pig. And remember, prices in my region should not be compared to prices in your region. It is the range that matters.

As for species longevity I don't see that swine are in danger. Certain breeds certainly are in danger but crosses will endure forever.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Jim, I wonder if the problems in our large pork industry are due more to the cost of grain or to the sale price of pork. By producing the massive quantities of pork that they do, and by squeezing producers, they have been able to keep consumer prices, and their margins, incredibly low.

if that is true, might it have been a better strategy to sell less pork at higher prices?

For others: I can hear some folks screaming at me for that. "How dare you increase my food cost?" My answer is, do we really need to eat meat at every meal? What if we cut our meat intake by one, or even two, third(s)?

(Don't bang the political gong again. I am not advocating for vegetarianism or against meat.)

If we cut our meat intake wouldn't that benefit small farmers, maybe even the big guys, by raising the value of meat?

I would happily raise fewer pigs if I could achieve the same revenue. My margins would also improve due to lower feed cost.


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

HeritagePigs said:


> PBP, I sell my heritage cross piglets for $60 to $80 depending upon the breeds that the cross came from. Normal modern breed crosses sell for as low as $30 and as high as $80.
> 
> My $20 dollar example was not total price; it was meant to be the additional price that would keep someone from being able to purchase a pig. And remember, prices in my region should not be compared to prices in your region. It is the range that matters.
> 
> As for species longevity I don't see that swine are in danger. Certain breeds certainly are in danger but crosses will endure forever.


Thanks Brian, for the clarification.
In any rate, I should charge $40-$50 per full sized feeder pig, and $30-$40 per Pot Belly pig, as that would put me about middle of the road here....
Once again, thanks.
This is a learning process for many of us.
Greg,
Alger, Ohio


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

PBP, that's why I like this forum. We can all learn from each other and help more folks make pigs a worthwhile endeavor.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

I charged $80 for heritage breed crosses and could have sold 4X as many as I had. "Regular" piglets go for $40 -50 here. Genetics and quality do make a difference.


http://www.dostersheritagefarm.com


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

Farmerga said:


> I charged $80 for heritage breed crosses and could have sold 4X as many as I had. "Regular" piglets go for $40 -50 here. Genetics and quality do make a difference.
> 
> 
> http://www.dostersheritagefarm.com


Yep, you could have sold 4x as many crosses, but that did nothing to perpetrate the pure bred Mulefoot populations across the United States.
Unless the prices of these rare Heritage pigs come down, ownership of said pigs will be low.
Thus, some are only one herd destroying disease away from extinction of that gene pool......
Would this not be correct?


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

I'll take this part 

"Unless the prices of these rare Heritage pigs come down, ownership of said pigs will be low."

High prices for heritage purebred pigs help to keep the breeds pure which is the goal of heritage pig breeders. I sell yearling registered breeding pairs for $2000 and up. If someone is going to make that kind of investment they are more likely to breed properly; simple economics since they can sell registered purebred for far more than cross. The market, at least for Large Blacks, also favors breeding pigs with very low inbreeding. We are recovering these breeds by ensuring that the market favors pigs that help keep the breeds diverse. We don't want, and the U.S. herd doesn't need, hundreds of pigs that are closely related.

However, there are people who want heritage breed traits at cross pig prices. That's why I and many others keep a Tamworth or Hamp sow, that we breed to a purebred boar, to provide heritage traits at lower prices.


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

> You just simply can't compare the quality of a farm raised pig with the pork that people buy in their grocery stores.


:clap:

So very true. I watch Craigslist and I have been pleased to note that the price of feeder pigs and butchering pigs has gone up here. 

The pork you can buy in the grocery store is so different. It's like comparing home made lemon cake to a twinkie.


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

HeritagePigs said:


> I'll take this part
> 
> High prices for heritage purebred pigs help to keep the breeds pure which is the goal of heritage pig breeders. I sell yearling registered breeding pairs for $2000 and up.


If ownership is down due to pricing, then diversity of the stock is down.
Correct?
Since this is so, would not my earlier statement be true, that you, Brian, and the few others who raise Heritage stock are just one disease away from extinction of that particular gene pool?
It seems to me, that there is a new disease every year discovered, that replaces one that is controlled.....
And while it is true, these have been around for over a hundred years(some a lot longer than that), it could still happen, theoretically?


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

Question: Is it possible to "breed back" to a Heritage breed, if disease were to destroy existing populations or would they be forever lost?

You know, between Brian, Walter, and Rogo, I've learned much here


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

PotBellyPigs said:


> If ownership is down due to pricing, then diversity of the stock is down.
> Correct?
> Since this is so, would not my earlier statement be true, that you, Brian, and the few others who raise Heritage stock are just one disease away from extinction of that particular gene pool?
> It seems to me, that there is a new disease every year discovered, that replaces one that is controlled.....
> And while it is true, these have been around for over a hundred years(some a lot longer than that), it could still happen, theoretically?


I wouldn't go quite that far. There are many different breeders of American Mulefoot pigs from several different states, so, the breed should go on. This is also true for most of the rare heritage breeds. As for the price, like everything else, as numbers go up, the price should go down. I sell my fullblood piglets at $200 per at 8 weeks old and have sold to many different people from different places. 

Cross breds is where I make my money, I breed the fullbloods to keep the breed going.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

"If ownership is down due to pricing, then diversity of the stock is down.
Correct?"

No, PBP. Diversity of the breeds that I am involved with has improved significantly. As an example, about a year and a half ago the average inbreeding coefficient in the U.S. Large Black herd was about 24%. I would estimate that it is about 18% now. Our goal is to get it down to 10% or less. High prices, that are encouraging proper breeding, is the primary reason for this reduction in inbreeding (improvement in diversity).

Ownership of Large Blacks has exploded. The numbers of purebred hogs registered with the Large Black Hog Association more than doubled in the past year. Most breeders, including me, have very long waiting lists for piglets. I'm sold out until Spring.

So the health of the U.S. Large Black herd and ownership has increased dramatically while the prices have remained relatively high.

As for disease, high value of registered heritage pigs encourages the breeder to ensure his or her herd remains healthy. For the most part we raise them on pasture, treat them humanely, provide good food and keep them in good condition. Healthy pigs make healthy and more piglets. Most of us also practice biosecurity on our farms to reduce the chances of disease transmission.

Since there are dozens of widely separated farms raising heritage breeds (hundreds for some breeds) and husbandry practices are very good, there is very little chance that any disease could cause serious harm to the U.S. and global herds.

ADDED:

Question: Is it possible to "breed back" to a Heritage breed?

Answer: Not really. We can make them more diverse, we can increase the percentage of genetics from one particular bloodline, but the hogs we have are not really carbon copies of the ones that were raised in the 1800s. Evolution never goes backwards.

ADDED: There are gene banks that are preserving current DNA sets but I'm not aware of any for heritage breed pigs.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

"Is it possible to "breed back" to a Heritage breed, if disease were to destroy existing populations or would they be forever lost?"

For the heritage breeds listed on the ALBC site, the answer is no. The stock, used to create the breeds in the first place, no longer exists. You may be able to get something that looks like what was lost, but, other traits that make that breed unique, would be lost forever.


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

Farmerga said:


> I wouldn't go quite that far. There are many different breeders of American Mulefoot pigs from several different states, so, the breed should go on. This is also true for most of the rare heritage breeds. As for the price, like everything else, as numbers go up, the price should go down. I sell my fullblood piglets at $200 per at 8 weeks old and have sold to many different people from different places.
> 
> Cross breds is where I make my money, I breed the fullbloods to keep the breed going.


Thanks for the answer!
It just seemed like common sense to me to diversify(have as many variables within a subspecies) as much as possible.
I've been to your website, and it looks like you have some nice pigs!
Greg,
Alger, Ohio


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

PotBellyPigs said:


> Thanks for the answer!
> It just seemed like common sense to me to diversify(have as many variables within a subspecies) as much as possible.
> I've been to your website, and it looks like you have some nice pigs!
> Greg,
> Alger, Ohio


Thanks, one major difficulty in breeding rare breeds is the distance you have to travel just to get good breeding stock. I put in thousands of miles to get my Mulefoot herd to what it is now. 


http://www.dostersheritagefarm.com


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

HeritagePigs said:


> Question: Is it possible to "breed back" to a Heritage breed?
> 
> Answer: Not really. We can make them more diverse, we can increase the percentage of genetics from one particular bloodline, but the hogs we have are not really carbon copies of the ones that were raised in the 1800s. Evolution never goes backwards.


Thanks for the answer.
The reason I asked, was because of a National Geographic article on ancient horses, that a German scientist before WWII CLAIMED he "bred back" to.
Some scientists today, said he did, others not, therefore an opinion from you guys in the breeding fields seemed a good idea.

I don't believe in evolution, by the way(at least not cat turns into dog,lol).


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

Farmerga said:


> Thanks, one major difficulty in breeding rare breeds is the distance you have to travel just to get good breeding stock. I put in thousands of miles to get my Mulefoot herd to what it is now.


Ouch!
Hate to see your "gas" bill.....
I guess you can take some of it off your taxes, though?
All of the pigs, I have bought, have been right here in Ohio, though separated by times and distances.
Two of my York/Hamp guilts are from St.Marys(to the south of me, about 25 miles), 1 York/Hamp guilt is from Carey(north central, about 40 miles away) and my York/Hamp boar is from Delta(north west, about 80 miles away).
And though, the same breed of pig, I am reasonably certain that they are not related in any way.
I did the same with my Pot Belly pigs.....


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

In general usage, "breeding back" means to selectively breed to make a modern animal look and act like an ancestral animal.

But are they the same? When I look at old drawings of hogs they put our skinny pigs to shame 

ADDED: Alternatively, "bred back" means a sow has been bred again just after weaning a litter.


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

HeritagePigs said:


> We can make them more diverse, we can increase the percentage of genetics from one particular bloodline, but the hogs we have are not really carbon copies of the ones that were raised in the 1800s.


Yeah, I noticed in my 1927 Ag book(reprint) that the old black and white photos of pigs, looked like barrels with legs.......
They, back then recognized grass fed to be beneficial to the pig, and a bigger, meatier slaughter weight.
But the pigs looked very different....


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Sorry, I missed these questions. I'll give my two cents then I have to go buy some, you guessed it, pig feed!

"How to improve profits for pig farmers:
I am going to make some assumptions. I need you to fill in some gaps in my knowledge."

"The big corporations can farm cheaper than the small guy?"

In some ways. Due to volume they can get discounts on feed or even afford to make it themselves. But they can't get enough day old bread or kitchen scraps to lower their feed bills...


"The animals produced by the little guy are actually healthier and healthier to eat?"

In many cases. Pigs raised under confinement in large groups can have real problems with illness. Large industrial pig operations have to provide medicated feed and vaccinations to combat this problem. Most small farmers can go without preventative antibiotics and vaccinations.

Pigs in confinement are also under much greater stress than free range pigs. Confinement sows spend much of their time in farrowing crates to prevent the sows from eating or squashing their piglets. Sows who are in a much less stressful environment, with adequate room for the piglets to escape, don't usually have these problems. 


"You can not expect the consumers to pay more unless they understand the benefits."

True. Thanks to the never ending recalls of meat, eggs and other food from large providers, customers are becoming wiser about their food choices.


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## RWBlue01 (Aug 11, 2010)

HeritagePigs said:


> Jim, I wonder if the problems in our large pork industry are due more to the cost of grain or to the sale price of pork. By producing the massive quantities of pork that they do, and by squeezing producers, they have been able to keep consumer prices, and their margins, incredibly low.
> 
> if that is true, might it have been a better strategy to sell less pork at higher prices?
> 
> ...


Unless you are eliminating some of the farmers this idea will not work.

Less demand on pigs would mean prices should drop, decreasing the profits made by farmers.

If you want to work on the price of grain, that would be interesting. By eliminating the ethanol plants, that would increase the amount of grain on the market, reducing the price of grains, hurting the grain farmers.



HeritagePigs said:


> "You can not expect the consumers to pay more unless they understand the benefits."
> 
> True. Thanks to the never ending recalls of meat, eggs and other food from large providers, customers are becoming wiser about their food choices.


Thanks for the answers.

Adults have a 17 minute attention span. They hear about a recall on the news one day and forget about it before making it to the store the next day.

I would say that 90% or more of the population isn't seeing the issues. For the most part, the ones that are, are turning against meat and turning vegetarian and wanting organic foods. 

My only suggestion is to educate the public of the benefits of small farms.

I wonder if free range pork would sell? (like free range chicken, but goes wee, wee, wee all the way home)


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

RWBlue01 said:


> Thanks for the answers.
> 
> Adults have a 17 minute attention span. They hear about a recall on the news one day and forget about it before making it to the store the next day.
> 
> ...


I think that basically, Brian is free range, as is Walter, as I am on a MUCH smaller scale.
My pigs get all the grass they can eat within a confined space(much smaller than Brian's and Walter's acreage), plus apples that fall off my tree, and garden veggies.
To this I add(and they add some things too, I'm sure), day old bread, old kitchen scraps, and milk from my goat.....
Greg,
Alger, Ohio


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

"Less demand on pigs would mean prices should drop, decreasing the profits made by farmers."

True. But if availability were limited prices would rise. It is the massive amount available because of Corporate farms that has caused the price to be low.


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

HeritagePigs said:


> But if availability were limited prices would rise. It is the massive amount available because of Corporate farms that has caused the price to be low.


Here in Ohio, if availability were anymore limited than it is now, I'd never have found full sized pigs at all to raise at prices I could afford.......

This is a dangerous two edged sword, Brian.

What happens when future generations would like to start a farm, and have to start from "scratch"?

You, of all people understand the costs involved....
Greg,
Alger, Ohio


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Lazy J said:


> Meat Producers do not received direct subsidies from the USDA.


The Big Ag livestock industry is heavily subsidized because they are dependent on grain and petroleum. Petroleum and grain are both heavily subsidized by our government which keeps the price of both down which helps subsidize the Big Ag livestock farmers in a very direct manner.

Drop all the subsidies. Create a level playing field within our country and let us see how well Big Ag can compete with pastured farms. Big Ag will fail. Miserably. I bet money on it every day.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

highlands said:


> The Big Ag livestock industry is heavily subsidized because they are dependent on grain and petroleum. Petroleum and grain are both heavily subsidized by our government which keeps the price of both down which helps subsidize the Big Ag livestock farmers in a very direct manner.
> 
> Drop all the subsidies. Create a level playing field within our country and let us see how well Big Ag can compete with pastured farms. Big Ag will fail. Miserably. I bet money on it every day.


Every person in the USA benefits from the petroleum subsidies. 

The dairy farmers that produce the milk that made the whey that you feed to your pigs received direct payments from the USDA.

I agree that subsidies have caused problems with our country, as with others in the world. But lets be truthful, pork producers do not receive a dime from the USDA or the US government to support their operations. 

The US consumer demanded that we produce 105 million pigs in the USA, unfortunately whe pushed the limits and produced 112 million which caused an oversupply and depressed prices. As with any commodity production, the cycle repeats itself, overproduction followed by under production. 

Jim


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

highlands said:


> Drop all the subsidies. Create a level playing field within our country and let us see how well Big Ag can compete with pastured farms. Big Ag will fail. Miserably. I bet money on it every day.


The American Farmer has risen to challenges throughout the years. Challenges of erosion, insects, price erosion, changing consumer demand, etc. The market demanded that US corn farmer produce over 12 billion bushels to meet domestic and foreign demand. Changes in the availability of petroleum will be a challenge for sure, but one that the American Farmer will meet and exceed. Its the way we've done it for years.

Before this falls into the typical Big is Bad, Small is Good argument, lets remember that we are discussing how small, niche producers such as you, Highlands, Bruce King, Heritage Pigs, and others can help others charge more for their livestock. We have repeatedly heard to not compare yourself to the commodity producers, which I agree with. I urge these producers to "Tell their Story, then Sell their Story". People far removed from production agriculture will eat it up.

Jim


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

I have heard the number thrown out that on a given day 31000 or is it 13000 more people are born than die per day in this country.... These people are going to want to eat. Big Ag will feed 99% of them. The idea that we can roll back the clock and go back to heritage hogs and turn of the century farming methods for anything other hobby or very small niche production is nonsense.

I'm sorry but some body has to say this outloud. Small farms are dying because the kids just don't want to farm a vast percentage of the time. I deal with this everyday. 

Sometimes, I deal with kids that want me to dispose of a small farm without them actually having to drive down and do anything. The whole process is done long distance.

The parents die and the farms get sold. No evil plot againts small farms, no gov't plan for global food domination.... just changing lifestyles.

Lifestyles that are changing for farmers also. New methods that allow for people to work off the farm and still farm on the side.

I work full time (excess of 40 hours a week) off the farm, and when I get home I take care of the farm with very little hired help.

Small farms are going to have to be bi-vocational to survive.... I can do 1000 hogs a year and still work full time.

This makes good sense to me.... I feel no obligation or need to support farmers who can't come to grip with these simple facts.

What we are talking about is a modern amish revival.... that fine, but the amsih do without alot of stuff. If you want to farm like them.... do without like them.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

"Small farms are going to have to be bi-vocational to survive"

Not true. Many small farmers are doing quite well and the market future looks good. Stop trying to start a fight.

There is a place in our economy for large and small farms. We have perhaps the best food system in the history of mankind. Thanks to large farms practically everyone in our nation has access to good food. Thanks to small farmers they have variety.

I just wish we would eat better and less. Stop throwing so much of our food away.


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## triple divide (Jan 7, 2010)

Lazy J said:


> .
> 
> The dairy farmers that produce the milk that made the whey that you feed to your pigs received direct payments from the USDA.
> .
> ...


Really? The USDA cuts all dairy farmers a check? Show me, please.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

triple divide said:


> Really? The USDA cuts all dairy farmers a check? Show me, please.


The MILC and DELAP Programs were available to commercial milk producers.


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

RedHogs said:


> I have heard the number thrown out that on a given day 31000 or is it 13000 more people are born than die per day in this country.... These people are going to want to eat. Big Ag will feed 99% of them. The idea that we can roll back the clock and go back to heritage hogs and turn of the century farming methods for anything other hobby or very small niche production is nonsense.
> 
> I'm sorry but some body has to say this outloud. Small farms are dying because the kids just don't want to farm a vast percentage of the time. I deal with this everyday.
> 
> ...


I can agree with much of this...
A lot of kids these days, don't want the hassle of 3 am birth to deal with, nor are they "up with the chickens" every morning these days.
A lot of these children are also quite lazy, which is why a lot of farmers had to go to these large round bales....
They had no one to help bail the smaller squared ones.
I too, work a 40 hour week(work nights), and every morning, I feed and water my livestock(I have meat/dairy goats, chickens, ducks, guineas, and just recently pigs, both full sized and small).
My attempt to being self sufficient, is lacking, right now, but I am getting closer to my goals.
My grandparents farmed 140 acres when I was a boy.
They had sheep, cattle, pigs, and chickens.
They had their own grain and hay to feed them.
When they died, NONE of their children wanted that kind of life.
Therefore, I have had to start from "scratch".
Its been tough, but my first two kids born this spring, made all this worthwhile.
If, you're running into town, to buy hog feed, you're not living like an Amish....


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## RWBlue01 (Aug 11, 2010)

HeritagePigs said:


> "Less demand on pigs would mean prices should drop, decreasing the profits made by farmers."
> 
> True. But if availability were limited prices would rise. It is the massive amount available because of Corporate farms that has caused the price to be low.


True, the problem is limiting availability without infringing on peoples rights in a capitalist society.

Lazy J says it better than I can.



Lazy J said:


> The US consumer demanded that we produce 105 million pigs in the USA, unfortunately when pushed the limits and produced 112 million which caused an oversupply and depressed prices. As with any commodity production, the cycle repeats itself, overproduction followed by under production.
> 
> Jim


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

> Every person in the USA benefits from the petroleum subsidies.


Big Ag benefits a lot more than a small pastured farm. Big Ag can't live without oil.



> The dairy farmers that produce the milk that made the whey that you feed to your pigs received direct payments from the USDA.


Acutally, the dairy we get is from _pastured_ animals so there is very little petroleum input. Big Ag in contrast uses huge amounts of oil. Cut off the petroleum subsidies and let the cost of gasoline and diesel rise to their true values and we would see Big Ag roll over and die. Small farms on the other hand would be only minorly affected. Higher oil prices would be a good thing. It is unfortunate that the price of things gets hidden in subsidies.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

HeritagePigs said:


> Many small farmers are doing quite well and the market future looks good. Stop trying to start a fight.


Exactly true, Heritage. We make our living from our land. It is very doable. I know of other farmers who do the same and have no off farm jobs in the entire family be it two people or ten. Additionally, when some people take off farm jobs it is just a temporary gig but that gets counted in the statistics as 'off farm' work.


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## lisarichards (Dec 6, 2004)

Pigs and turkeys are the two most profitable things we do. We sell our meat for $5 a pound and sell everything we can produce, and are constantly trying to increase the size of our herds. We sell registered Tamworth pigs for $150 each, and those go quickly as well.

We think ducks will be profitable, with just a limited amount of experience. We are trying to establish a breeding flock of Saxony ducks. Same thing with Chantecler chickens. We have a big demand for eggs year round from pastured birds.

We've never made much money on the sheep, and are definitely reconsidering keeping them, nevermind that's how we got started in farming.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

And once again Highlands has managed to turn yet another thread into Big is Bad, Small is Good hate on the American Farmer thread. No wonder people do not want to participate on the Pig Forum


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## WhitÂ´s End Farm (Feb 2, 2010)

DoesnÂ´t look like he said that to me. Looks like he just wants a level playing field. 

Lazy J, from your comments you are obvoiusly well studied, and know a great deal about this issue. In your opinoin is the playing field level for all farmers?


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

Lazy J said:


> And once again Highlands has managed to turn yet another thread into Big is Bad, Small is Good hate on the American Farmer thread. No wonder people do not want to participate on the Pig Forum


It is interesting to note, that different folks see "small" differently.
I kind of think small is a couple of boars, and 3-5 sows.......
Those who have $42,000 wrapped up in their livestock(pigs alone), would not be considered small here, but "well to do".
I hope you know, Brian, I'm not picking on you, just making an observation.


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

> And once again Highlands has managed to turn yet another thread into Big is Bad, Small is Good hate on the American Farmer thread. No wonder people do not want to participate on the Pig Forum


I think it's worse than that.... not only must we support and inflate our prices to "protect" the small farms.....we must buy into the sanctioned farming methods...according to this site lately, you can be small and still not be acceptable.

There is a word I would like someone to define for me.

COLLUSION...

If big ag was caught on a forum having this discussion, it would be a PR nightmare.

There used to be alot of pro farmers on site.... most have left because they got tired of being beat up on because they don't want to farm like their grandparents.

Prices are personal, you should not have to disclose them... and you shouldn't be lectured on what to charge.... you have no responsibility to your competition.

this thread is flurting with marxism.


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

RedHogs said:


> I think it's worse than that.... not only must we support and inflate our prices to "protect" the small farms.....we must buy into the sanctioned farming methods...according to this site lately, you can be small and still not be acceptable.
> 
> There is a word I would like someone to define for me.
> 
> ...


Again, I can agree with much of this.

Wouldn't you think, that if they were to manage, somehow, to drive up the price of pork, that other farm industries would then get a "boost", as folks would then just consume, lets say, more beef?
People like a bargain.
They will buy nine times out of ten, the "good" cheaper item over the "best" more high priced item.
Just ask WalMart, they made a killing at it.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

To me, it is a matter of quality. We sell our pigs as a premium product, not a commodity. It is like the difference between eating at McDonalds&#8217; and eating a prime steak. You will be eating beef in both cases, but, I&#8217;ll bet you will expect to pay more for the prime steak.


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## Beowulf (Aug 27, 2010)

Saying up front that I don't raise anything - I followed links to this forum while looking for cheese recipes...

Anyway, it does not seem that the OP intended a Big vs Small debate at all. Most folks here seem to be small farmers. The debate is about how much do you value your time, resources, and end product. It seems that the OP values his more than others do, and is trying to convince the others that theirs are more valuable too.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Thanks, Beowulf. You got it.


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## triple divide (Jan 7, 2010)

Lazy J said:


> The MILC and DELAP Programs were available to commercial milk producers.


Ahh.. that makes sense. I see what you're saying now. You had me confused for a minute. We haven't shipped milk in eleven years, so I forget about the welfare programs that are out there. 

I wish that subsidised farming would vanish. The market would decide what is in demand. 

On a personal note, I've been in Ag pretty much all my life from the family dairy farm to working for Murphy/Brown and Carrolls Foods. There is a place for everything, including what I choose to consume. I harbor no resentment toward the contract growers housing animals for the big-boys. I'm a farmer too, I'd do whatever it takes to hold onto my land. I don't like the practices, but cheap fresh food is what America wants, so, thats what (generally speaking) it gets. I'm glad the big-boys are out there doing what they do, it opens up a small market for me. 

Gotta love that silver lining.


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

Farmerga said:


> To me, it is a matter of quality. We sell our pigs as a premium product, not a commodity. It is like the difference between eating at McDonaldsâ and eating a prime steak. You will be eating beef in both cases, but, Iâll bet you will expect to pay more for the prime steak.


LOL, I don't remember the last time I ate prime steak.......


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

PBP, sell your pigs for more and you can buy a cow...


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

HeritagePigs said:


> PBP, sell your pigs for more and you can buy a cow...


I think I'll stick with my goats, friend.
They don't need as much space or feed....
HOWEVER, I wouldn't want to be robbed, this spring, neither, when I sale my feeder pigs.


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

RedHogs said:


> I think it's worse than that.... not only must we support and inflate our prices to "protect" the small farms.....we must buy into the sanctioned farming methods...according to this site lately, you can be small and still not be acceptable.
> 
> There is a word I would like someone to define for me.
> 
> ...


Umm, starting with the fact that flirting with Marxism is neither illegal, immoral or fattening. that's a load of crap and I can't even compost it.

It's trivial to find the fora where big ag colludes, admittedly mostly about lobbying and PR rather than price, but colludes nonetheless. Try following #agchat on Twitter.

And how is "I raise my animals this way. It produces a premium meat. I charge twice what Tyson does because mine is twice as good." anything but what capitalism should be? Throwing in, "And you could too." is merely [pick a religion] charity.

I know you can find chunks of Judaism, Christianity and Islam that will say treating your stock horribly to cut costs is fine. I can find bigger chunks of all three that disagree. I'm an atheist, so I just say I personally find it wrong, and fortunately I can find customers who will put money where their mouth is. The fact that it tastes better is a bonus.

There is a premium market for happy yummy meat. If big ag won't supply it, it is the essence of capitalism that us crunchy pinkos (and fellow travellers) do. If, as seems more and more likely, big ag can't, then we win big.


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

FrankRichards said:


> Umm, starting with the fact that flirting with Marxism is neither illegal, immoral or fattening. that's a load of crap and I can't even compost it.
> 
> It's trivial to find the fora where big ag colludes, admittedly mostly about lobbying and PR rather than price, but colludes nonetheless. Try following #agchat on Twitter.
> 
> ...


I think flirting with Marxism to be highly immoral. You don't think pig farmers get to choose their prices in Marxist countries do you? Furthermore, Jews and Muslims consider pork to be an unclean animal, so I doubt there are many of those who raise said animal.
Why bring religious preferences into this conversations?
NOBODY here cares what your preference is!
That is not what the topic is even about.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Wow, we have surely gone far off point. 

So let me steer us back.

There are millions of people who want only to be simple farmers. Just live on land that they can feel is healthy and comforting. Spend their energy and emotions doing a simple thing: raising livestock, in this case pigs, that will provide healthy, nutritious food for other people. It's an honorable goal.

In simpler times it might also be a lifestyle that also provided their families with a good living, with the ability to live in a well constructed house, with nice amenities, fashionable clothes, a little extra income to splurge on occasional nice things. In simpler times people were able to be farmers and live like that.

But today our population has reached a point where small farmers just cannot adequately feed everyone. Not too long ago some farmers learned that if they incorporated modern industrial practices they could produce more food by consolidating farming operations into factory-like farms. Along with the industrial revolution came the realization that end products could be made faster, cheaper and in much greater volume by designing a manufacturing process. Farmers applied manufacturing processes to the breeding and raising of livestock, in this case pigs. By abandoning the haphazard practices of old farming, they developed processes where the breeding, farrowing, weaning, feeding, growing and slaughtering phases of pig farming could be scheduled, controlled and manipulated, resulting in greater volume of end products (pork) in less time and at less cost. This evolved into the factory farms we now have that are models of efficiency. 

As these farms were able to provide more food than our population needs the price for pork came down. Now practically everyone can enjoy pork at a low price; they can have bacon for breakfast, ham sandwiches for lunch and pork roast for dinner. Consumers are happy but they also have become used to readily available, inexpensive pork. They have lost respect for their food, lost any understanding of what a great gift they have received, and they have become greedy, rebelling any time that producers dared to raise their prices to attempt to recover their costs and still produce a reasonable profit. This put large producers in a bind; now they are stuck with the economy they created. They now are forced to do things that are uncomfortable but necessary. They house even more pigs in smaller spaces; feed them antibiotics to prevent any possible loss of product due to infection; feed them hormones and antibiotics to force pigs to grow faster; put sows into crates that prevent them from doing anything that might endanger their fetuses and piglets; take away the piglets as soon as possible, even force weaning them as early as fifteen days. All of these practices are necessary because they can't do anything about price now that consumers have become used to cheap pork. The next step, which we are seeing, is that these companies are running out of ways to further reduce cost or improve output and we are seeing them sold off to foreign investors. We can no longer even call them American farms. They are now international corporations; they have lost any essence of what most people think of as farms.

But, there is still a small number of people who, uncomfortable with the reality of modern industrial farming, want to try and recreate the image of old times; the image of simple people raising natural food the way it used to be. Raising livestock in ways that retain the dignity and compassion that our ancestors used to show toward their livestock. Allowing pigs to live in a relatively open space, expressing their natural behaviors, interacting in a natural social group, expressing their normal breeding behaviors, carrying their fetuses to full term in a low stress environment, birthing without unnatural restraint and developing a normal bond between sow and piglets, allowing piglets to enjoy the warmth and care of their moms, allowing sows to choose when to wean their piglets and allowing the piglets the critical process of gaining the benefits of mom's milk and immunities as long as necessary, allowing piglets to learn natural behavior from their elders and peers in a social herd, letting piglets grow on good, natural food and mature into healthy, unadulterated pigs that can be used to then provide the healthiest food possible to people.

But, due to inexpensive, readily available pork provided by the large producers, and the demands of consumers that all pork be available at the same cheap price, small farmers are facing a very difficult choice. Because of the efficiencies of factory farming, small farmers trying to do it the old way cannot possibly sell pork at store prices. If they try they will lose money with every pork chop sold. This forces small farmers to have income from other sources; their farm becomes an expensive hobby.

Thankfully there are some small farmers who are trying to change this. They are trying to bring back respect for small farmers; respect for the incredibly hard work they do to attempt to provide consumers with a choice, with variety, with truly healthy food from livestock that are allowed to live a good life. They are slowly changing consumers' minds and some consumers are responding by understanding that there is a real cost to doing things the old way, but a tangible benefit by choosing to spend their food dollars in support of small farmers and the product they provide. A partnership is developing that promises to change, fundamentally, how our population is fed, albeit in a small way.

The potential for small farmers is perhaps the best it has been in generations. But barriers exist; one of those barriers is the number of small farmers who are not taking full advantage of the market that is growing for their products. Without fully calculating their costs these small farmers are selling their products at a loss; often not realizing they are doing so. Because they view their market as small they think of other small farmers as competitors and believe that the way to succeed is to beat their competition by lowering prices for their product. They are emulating the business models of the large producers without understanding that it is impossible to be successful by selling low. It is a dead end that many large producers are just now beginning to realize.

So how do we, as a group of small farmers, turn this around? How do we educate each other on innovative business practices that will work to elevate small farmers to the level of respect they, their husbandry practices, and their livestock deserve? How do we make small farming a profitable vocation that will keep more families on the farm and encourage others to join us?

It's a difficult quest given the current oversupply of cheap food that we enjoy. But it is doable if small farmers work together. We have to continue to develop our market as distinct and unconnected to that of the large producers. We have to continue to drive the message that the two products, pork from small farms and pork sold in grocery stores, are different products. 

This does not mean that we attack the large producers; some have tried that only to learn that the vast majority of people like cheap pork and won't respond to the message that "big ag is bad". And, honestly, big ag is where the R&D happens that has provided benefit to all farmers. 

My message in this thread has been simple. Stop selling low. You have a product that is worth more, a product that, if managed correctly, can provide you with the ability to live solely on the income from your farm, keep more people on their farms, and attract more people to this lifestyle and business. But you have to stop thinking of other small farmers as your competition. You have to help "raise the boat", not sink it. Look at your product and truly evaluate what it is worth; build into that worth the true cost of producing it and add a reasonable margin that will help you provide your family with a comfortable life. If that value seems high, don't lower your prices; build an understanding within your customers of the true value they will receive if they support your efforts. Make your market like you and your product.

That's all I'm asking. If we run our small farm businesses correctly not only will we see the benefit but other small farmers will as well. We will stop hurting each other and help our neighbors by providing them with the best food they can find.

This thread has been a good discussion despite the occasional wandering into nonsense. Let's keep it up (the helpful discussion, not the nonsense). After all, what is the purpose of this discussion group if not to help all of us do better as small farmers?


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## sassafras manor (Dec 5, 2009)

Well said Heritage Hogs, your logic is the same as ours.

Matt


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Lazy J said:


> And once again Highlands has managed to turn yet another thread into Big is Bad, Small is Good hate on the American Farmer thread. No wonder people do not want to participate on the Pig Forum


No, LazyJ. You and RedHogs are the ones who destroy the thread. Weird that RedHogs would call this Marxism. I'm fully a capitalist and was saying subsidies should be removed to create a level playing field. The current system of subsidies favors those who the government supports and hurts those of us who don't get government supports. Don't twist words around and create lies.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

highlands said:


> No, LazyJ. You and RedHogs are the ones who destroy the thread. Weird that RedHogs would call this Marxism. I'm fully a capitalist and was saying subsidies should be removed to create a level playing field. The current system of subsidies favors those who the government supports and hurts those of us who don't get government supports. Don't twist words around and create lies.


There must be some Ditch Weed in the bacon smoker at the packing plant in Vermont!

You need to go back and read what I actually wrote before you start lumping me in with Red Hogs.

Jim


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Sigh. Anybody know of a discussion group for small farmers where flames don't occur?


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

HeritagePigs said:


> Sigh. Anybody know of a discussion group for small farmers where flames don't occur?


Yep, Cornell and UVM both run moderated lists that stick hard to best farming practices and nothing else. That works. I bet other extension departments do too.

Small/Beginner Farmers of NH has a Yahoo list where the mods also enforce.

On the Icelandic sheep breeders list I've seen a pagan herbalist and a fundamentalist DVM talking (very carefully) about keeping our far too delicate sheep alive. That one was double dynamite.


Beyond that, we _are_ an explosive mix of pinko granolas and ******* teapartiers. 
(with lots of hybrids). Add in the all too likely rumor that both PETA and big ag have paid provacateurs cruising the fora and life gets tough.


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

> Sigh. Anybody know of a discussion group for small farmers where flames don't occur?


For farmers, small farmers... or certain small farmers? 

I asked you before heritage to change the title of the forum to exclude those that don't agree with you.....Flames happen when it gets political, I say political....I know you don't think that pushing one group as better isn't political, but I believe it is.

I want to recommend a book to you, "No more Mondays" it based upon the prinicples of self employment, but ultimately about satisfaction... It's about paying attention to what's in your fence and ignoring what's in your neighbor's fence. Controlling what you can control... It is about gaining a perspective and plan to keep it.

I make myself read it ever year.

Every year it's seems like a different book because I've changed.

As long as this is a pig forum I think it should stay about raising hogs... not pushing certain social or politically correct methods over others.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Thanks for the advice, RedHogs.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Thanks, Frank. I'll check those out.

This forum is losing its appeal. Not because people disagree; I like that as it helps all of us learn. It's because people disagree in anger and ignorance. Like children on a playground. I'm getting tired of trying to reason with children.


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

PotBellyPigs said:


> I think flirting with Marxism to be highly immoral. You don't think pig farmers get to choose their prices in Marxist countries do you? Furthermore, Jews and Muslims consider pork to be an unclean animal, so I doubt there are many of those who raise said animal.
> Why bring religious preferences into this conversations?
> NOBODY here cares what your preference is!
> That is not what the topic is even about.


And I think keeping pigs in an environment where they need tail docking and daily antibiotics is highly immoral. I also think that the deliberate conflation of European social democracy with Marxism-Leninism is highly immoral (that false witness thing, you know). I did actually expect to hear about that one, but, 'illegal, immoral or fattening' is a cool phrase, he clearly played the immoral card first, and I'm happy to come out swinging.

If you think RedHogs did not mean his arguments to apply to cattle and poultry, both quite acceptable to Jews and Muslims, then you probably ought to get a nice steady, well defined, job. Not farming.

Oh yeah, RedHogs pretty clearly cares what my preference in anything is. And yours. And everyone else's.

The topic, as I understand it, is: Small farmers either are, or could be with a minimum of additional effort, raising a premium product. It is better tasting, better treated, and provides a better livelihood to the farmer than the commodity version. We should get it together to "tell this story and sell this story" as someone else said. And charge appropriately so we can actually make a living farming.

RedHogs pretty clearly said this topic is illegal and immoral. I'm saying it is not immoral or illegal, and I'm pleading the 14th. The one that says I get to plead the First.

You have apparently chosen to run your pig farming operation as a charity. No one has questioned your right to do so. However, you clearly seem to be demanding that others sell you piglets at a price that will limit the loss of your charity to what you can afford. I farm pigs as a business. I sell piglets at a price that keeps me in business. So far, my customers have managed to raise and breed or sell those piglets at a profit to them. I've yet to not get my price for a piglet. I've yet to not get my price for a pig that I raise to market weight. If I can double my production without cutting prices, then neither my wife nor I need off-farm jobs. Dude, I won't just flirt with Marxism, I'll give her a hug and a peck on the cheek.

However, here in the reality based community, you're the one with the hammer and sickle, Redhogs has Mussolini's axe and rods thingy, and I'll just stick with Jefferson and Jackson.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

HeritagePigs said:


> Sigh. Anybody know of a discussion group for small farmers where flames don't occur?


If you find one please forward me the link? :hammer:


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

The bigger question is how many hogs can I sell at the price I want. That is what you really need to know.


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

FrankRichards said:


> And I think keeping pigs in an environment where they need tail docking and daily antibiotics is highly immoral. I also think that the deliberate conflation of European social democracy with Marxism-Leninism is highly immoral (that false witness thing, you know). I did actually expect to hear about that one, but, 'illegal, immoral or fattening' is a cool phrase, he clearly played the immoral card first, and I'm happy to come out swinging.
> 
> If you think RedHogs did not mean his arguments to apply to cattle and poultry, both quite acceptable to Jews and Muslims, then you probably ought to get a nice steady, well defined, job. Not farming.
> 
> ...



I 'm sorry Frank, but not everyone here has a 1,000 acres to run pigs(the topic, by the way).
You happen to think that it is a waste, for some body to raise a pig in their backyard(as some do) or immoral?
Since when does an animal, intended for consumption, have rights?
AND I DO have a full time job OFF this "farm".
You can have Marxism(in fact any "ism" if you wish), but you need to go to a foreign country for it.
For all the "isms" are about despotism, and that "sir", I'll have no part of!
I do not recall RedHogs mentioning your religion or lack thereof, for the topic is pigs(a non religious topic).


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

"....and I'll just stick with Jefferson and Jackson."

Jefferson and Jackson would think it not to be a big deal to put a ring in a hog's nose....

Be careful who your hero's are...

Greg,
Alger, Ohio


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## bstuart29 (Jul 11, 2006)

HeritagePigs said:


> Thanks, Frank. I'll check those out.
> 
> This forum is losing its appeal. Not because people disagree; I like that as it helps all of us learn. It's because people disagree in anger and ignorance. Like children on a playground. I'm getting tired of trying to reason with children.


Brian I did agree about the bigger picture you were talking about, I just saying it be harder for me to sell pigs/meat than what the store charges. it was a hit on you or anyone else just that it be more difficult for me. 
Would you say most of your customers are from the country, the city or a mix of both?


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

First, just on a guess, are you going to chuck conservatism out of the US too?

Next, perhaps we're not reading the same thread. I thought it was about appropriate pricing models for small operators producing heritage pastured pigs. In particular whether there was any need to be price competitive with the CAFO folks. I'm in the "Not only no, but hell no!" camp on that.

The only mention of 1000 acres involved a hypothetical corporate operation running 500 pastured sows. If they can do that, they win. I don't think a corporation can match my product for my price.

I don't recall anyone saying anything about someone raising a pig or two in their backyard for their family. I'll step up and give my two cents now. Here in New England it only makes sense if the majority of your feed is far less expensive than pellets at the farm store. If you don't have a source of inexpensive feed, just make your garden bigger. If you can feed for free or close to it, go for it. I don't know and don't particularly care about the other 44 states.

I also don't recall anyone saying a word about rings in snouts. I'm quite sure I did not.

Jefferson got written out of history by the Texas state school board. He also grew his own opium. If the guy who wrote the declaration of independence is too liberal for Texas, that's enough to make him my hero. Jackson actually was a rather evil man. He was at least consistent though, and had the same opinion of bankers that he did of Indians.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Allen W said:


> The bigger question is how many hogs can I sell at the price I want. That is what you really need to know.


Grow slowly into your local market and find out. This is what we're doing. I am very cautious and go very slowly as I don't want to take big risks. I've watched too many people jump in with both feet, not just with farming, and drown, hit the rocks, get eaten, etc. We carefully tried chickens and sheep before. Meat chickens we were not good at raising although there was plenty of market. Sheep we are good at raising but there is little market, they reproduce slowly and the yield is low. Pigs have worked very well for us.

Ah, but you want more exact numbers. Well, I figure I could sell 30 pigs a week if I wanted. Processing capacity is our bottleneck. I am working on solving that by building my own USDA/State inspected on-farm slaughterhouse, butcher shop and smokehouse. This will not only remove the bottleneck but mean we keep more of the profits. Even then I have no intention of growing too large. Too large and enough are numbers people have to figure out for themselves.



bstuart29 said:


> harder for me to sell pigs/meat than what the store charges.


I observe what the stores are charging and what my competitors charge but don't low-ball. Never try to compete with Smithfield, Tyson or the "Manager's Special Discount". They know how to lose money like you and I can never achieve.

What ever you do, don't undersell yourself. Produce a premium product and charge a premium price to a market who is willing to pay for quality. This equation is not unique to farming. Same as in any business. Good old Capitalism. To be sustainable you must make a profit that means you can continue to invest in your business so you'll be there next year.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

highlands said:


> http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop[/url]
> http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa


That is the answer to the whole question. 

Walter

How large of an area do you market in? I am thinking more about distance traveled to cover your area but population is important too. Lack of population and per capita income hurts us here.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Allen W said:


> Walter, How large of an area do you market in? I am thinking more about distance traveled to cover your area but population is important too. Lack of population and per capita income hurts us here.


See this post here:

http://flashweb.com/blog/2010/04/delivery-sequencing.html

which gives an idea of our delivery route. Our primary sales area forms a triangle around us with some spokes off of that. I picked our location decades ago by mapping out where the markets were and then buying land in the cheaper mountain area in between them.

This way I pay for land and taxes in the more rural, cheaper to live area and sell into the more affluent areas. It does mean that a farm stand is out of the question - we're too far off the beaten path. Instead we primarily sell through stores and restaurants as well as some sales direct to individuals, most of which we deliver along with our weekly wholesale orders along our route.

The population of the state of Vermont is about 600,000. A goodly amount of that is within the delivery route area.

The delivery route area also hits the higher per capita income areas.

What we did years ago was to pin down some anchor accounts along the route and then work on filling in smaller accounts. For example, a large food store at the extreme end in Burlington makes it worth driving there every week. A small store there would not have paid for the trip. But now that the trip is justified we are gradually filling in other smaller accounts along that leg of the trip. Same basic idea in all the directions.

It isn't something that happens over night. Grow slowly. There are tons of details to figure out.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

@bstuart29: "Would you say most of your customers are from the country, the city or a mix of both?"

My products are feeder and breeder piglets and pairs. Most customers are owners of small hobby farms that want to increase their revenue. As I said earlier I price at the upper limit of similar sales.

For cross piglets, my customers are within a few hundred mile radius or so. For registered purebreds I have customers from coast to coast, Alaska and Canada. Still working on Latin America... 

I will be selling pork halves and cuts next year. My customer base primarily is chefs and restaurants; I'll also be reselling pork from other small farms once I have the cost basis established such that the other folks can make it worth their while. Most small farmers have a hard time finding customers outside their local areas and don't have a good shipping process. They also can't easily convince chefs to pay top dollar. I'll take care of that for them.

For those who may think that I am a large producer, I am not. I have forty acres, 49 pigs (plus some really ugly pot bellies, another story for another day). I buy piglets from other breeders, raise them and then sell their litters. My current herd was built over several years a piglet or a few at a time. I sell everything at the highest price I can and always sell out; my registered piglets are sold out eight months in advance.

If I can do it, you can do it on whatever scale you want. You just have to work at it.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== (plus some really ugly pot bellies) ===


Makes it easier to eat them! -LOL-


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

I call them smashed faced rats...


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## Looking4ewes (Apr 30, 2006)

Brian,

Thanks for the beautiful essay. You should submit it to Small Farmer's Journel or other such publication. Your passion for humane husbandry methods for these wonderful animals called hogs always come through in your posts. Although I am brand new to pigs, I have learned much from you. Please don't become discouraged with small adversaries. Your message is simple, clear, and very consistent. It needs to be heard.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Thanks.


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## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

HeritagePigs said:


> I call them smashed faced rats...



LOL, Brian!!!!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

An old farmer once told me, " It isn't important how much you make, what matters is how much you keep."
I always thought of this one way, that if you found ways to keep your costs lower, you could make more money with less land or fewer pigs, etc.
But this thread points out the other side of this wise quote.
You can raise your pigs in a way that costs more than the commercial producer, but if you can figure out a way to market at a higher price, you can still profit.
Everyone lives in different areas and each of us has different abilities. Those that can sell sand to a Navaho or ice to an Eskimo, might have an easier time selling their pigs at a premium price.
Growing slowly is important advice. I&#8217;d bet that those that are making a profit on 20 sows couldn&#8217;t market the offspring from 200. Perhaps they couldn&#8217;t market the offspring from 40 or even 25 sows.
If I lived outside Grand Rapids, MI, I think I could capitalize on the &#8220;Buy Local&#8221; fad to profit from a couple hundred butcher hogs. I&#8217;m a good salesman. Some people aren&#8217;t. But, I happen to live in an area where price matters. It would be difficult attracting anyone to pay extra for pasture raised or organic. The only hogs that sell at a premium are the kid&#8217;s 4H County Fair pigs.
I knew a guy in Appleton, WI that boarded horses. He got $300 each, per month, plus feed. He had 100 horses. I studied his operation. I could replicate everything he had, except that there were only a few people in this county that could/would pay that much. No matter how well I took care of horses, I couldn&#8217;t attract 100 boarders.
Right now, I can make more money buying finished hogs at a livestock auction and hauling them to the butcher, than I could selling heritage pasture raised hogs.
Some folks are raising Large Black pigs. Some get $400 each. They are sold as breeders to people with dollar signs in their eyes. At some point, that bubble will burst. Some folks will be stuck with low quality sows that produce small litters of pigs that grow slow and produce too much lard. It happens all the time in dog breeds. It happened with Emu and Ostrich. 
Easier to grow 100 hogs than to grow just 10. Easier to find buyers for 10 than 100. As soon as your market is saturated, supply catches up with demand, prices drop off. 
All the rest of this debate on the morals of confinement, the virtues of pasture raised or the unmatched quality of a heritage breed&#8217;s pork chops, is simply marketing strategy. 
Not one word of this is meant to pick on anyone or start a fight. I know I'm right and you are wrong and that's just the way it is.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

haypoint said:


> An old farmer once told me, " It isn't important how much you make, what matters is how much you keep." ... I know I'm right and you are wrong and that's just the way it is.


You are right and this is why I _very_ carefully chose where I live over 20 years ago and then _very_ carefully and _very_ slowly grew my business, developed skills and markets. I like being right too. 

What is interesting is when certain people who are failing (at making a profit) tell me I can't do it. Being pig headed that just makes me succeed all the more...


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## Mare Owner (Feb 20, 2008)

HeritagePigs said:


> I think that most people are just giving their pigs away. I have friends that say they are making money at 75 cents per pound but they haven't calculated their costs; if they would make an honest calculation they would find that they are basically feeding pigs for their customers.
> 
> It amazes me just how common this is. In many cases it is because they see what others are charging and try to undercut them. If we all would seriously consider the cost of raising pigs, even on pasture, I think we might be surprised just how much we are giving away.


How does one make an honest calculation of cost to raise their hogs? Can you give us an example or scenario of this? I've seen different producers calculate costs differently and feel they are doing it right and the other guy isn't. It might be a good lesson for even the hobby producers to see how a farmer running their hog operation as a business calculates these things.

My challenge in calculating cost is that I raise hogs, beef cattle, and horses. They share buildings and feed, so some costs don't easily sort down the way others do (for example, electricity to light barns and run water heaters that are shared).

And what is "fair/reasonable" in regards to your own labor? Or is it not even included for some, and should it be?


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

@Mare Owner: Google "Farm Enterprise Budget"; there's a fairly standard process that is used. Knowing what your pork is worth is a very difficult process but, doing it through an enterprise budget is the only way to truly know what it costs to produce. It has to include things such as variable cost, fixed cost, labor opportunity loss, etc. If you haven't done it yet it is worth taking a farm budget class at your local university or through your local Extension office.

My advice is to either treat the whole farm as one cost center or treat each type of livestock product as an individual cost center with appropriate allocations for capital, labor, utilities, feed and other expenses.

Labor is often not included in a farmer's cost basis. But it should be. All the hours that you spend producing a product could be spent earning salary at a job and you need to calculate that cost. You have to run your farm as a business; otherwise just call it an expensive hobby, with you as a volunteer.

Brian


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Generally, "fair and reasonable" are seldom met goals. In a perfect world, you should be able to pay off a building in 30 years, pay you a fair wage, from the time you slip your boots on until you throw your coveralls in the wash, the costs of advertizements and the time you spend on the phone with buyers, plus the time you spend explaining everything to the buyer, 50 cents a mile to get the feeders and feed, then take them to butcher.

The big guys often get a better price on feed, have a contract for entire lots and don't have the same marketing expences. It doesn't take 100 times as long to feed 1000 as it does 10, so there is some economy of scale.

Most self employed jobs require that you not keep track of the hours you put in. Hurts too much to see what you are paying yourself.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Agree, in part. But you shouldn't compare a small farm with an international Corporation. They are not our competition; not even in the same market.

You should take advantage of Schedule F when you do your taxes. You can recover some of the expense of producing your product; including mileage. It's not a one for one but it does improve your margins. You should also establish a business account with your feed and supplies provider. You can usually avoid paying taxes on those expenses up front. 

If you don't put a cost to your labor then you can't say with full knowledge that your business is doing well. I give myself a value of three hours per day at minimum wage; that's what it would cost to hire a farm laborer around here. Of course I could make much more at a traditional job and there is an opportunity cost there, but I don't really want to work...

Brian


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

Heritage.....my formal education is in tax accounting and tax law....


your last three posts have not been correct....



> your laLabor is often not included in a farmer's cost basis. But it should be. All the hours that you spend producing a product could be spent earning salary at a job and you need to calculate that cost. You have to run your farm as a business; otherwise just call it an expensive hobby, with you as a volunteer.


When doing a business valuation... Owner input is not valued as an expense or cost.....It is valued as a whole as a result of business results in relation and addition/reduction to it's affect on your income as a whole. (Both realized and deferred tax credits or debits) The increase or decrease in E.

A = L+E 

(For example a doctor can lose 20,000 on horses and pay 18,000 less in taxes by living on a qualified farm) Those $20,000 loses allow direct expense of farm improvements, his farm is worth $100,000 more in 15 years than the rate of inflation. He pays cap gain tax on improvements that were recored as a loss.

I ask you, did this doctor lose $20,000 dollars a year?

This principle is seen in tax law also, with your schedule F.... if you will read the instruction on farm labor, you will see that your hypothetical farm labor is not deductable or recordable on that form. 

Business accounts for a hobby farms???? No, not usually....You enter into a new set of legal problems, you farming is excluded from your home and vehicle insurace for one. These issues are very complex...I do not use separate banking for farming use. Your Insurace carrier will ultimately be the final say.

A lawyer is need to fully answer that question.


When you determine cost, If you profit... then you are paid profit.

If you are paid a wage... then you are an expense and are included in business cost.

This may seem like very subtle differences, but they are the difference between winning and losing an audit.

You are correct, business should be run like business... that means using a CPA


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

HeritagePigs said:


> If you don't put a cost to your labor then you can't say with full knowledge that your business is doing well. I give myself a value of three hours per day at minimum wage; that's what it would cost to hire a farm laborer around here. Of course I could make much more at a traditional job and there is an opportunity cost there, but I don't really want to work...
> 
> Brian


In the Agriculutral Economics class I took while at Purdue what you just outlined was referred to as "Return to Management". In some of the profitability projections I do we include this as a line item, in essence paying yourself, with the bottomline as a profit or loss. 

Trying to determine true profitability with a Schedule F is misleading.

Jim


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Thanks for the info but perhaps I was confusing. Deciding whether a farm is profitable and determining its tax consequences are two different processes; tax burdens are part of the budget. My reference to reducing taxes was just an example of a way to improve margins that some farmers don't consider when trying to determine whether their business is profitable. Calculating labor cost is part of doing the enterprise budget, not part of figuring taxes. Related but different.

Lots of farmers buy stuff and sell stuff and, because they can pay their bills, think they are doing well. Without knowing the total cost of the farm business and the total return, it's just a guess. A good budget can show areas where expenses can be lowered and areas where returns can be improved. When I first did mine I realized that my oh so pretty goats were eating pasture that would provide a better return if used for my relatively ugly pigs. I also realized that my cross pigs were losing money; leading me to breed purebred pigs and sell my crosses for more.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

HeritagePigs said:


> Lots of farmers buy stuff and sell stuff and, because they can pay their bills, think they are doing well. Without knowing the total cost of the farm business and the total return, it's just a guess. .


Exactly! 

I call it profitability vie checkbook balance.


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## Mare Owner (Feb 20, 2008)

HeritagePigs said:


> @Mare Owner: Google "Farm Enterprise Budget"; there's a fairly standard process that is used. Knowing what your pork is worth is a very difficult process but, doing it through an enterprise budget is the only way to truly know what it costs to produce. It has to include things such as variable cost, fixed cost, labor opportunity loss, etc. If you haven't done it yet it is worth taking a farm budget class at your local university or through your local Extension office.
> 
> My advice is to either treat the whole farm as one cost center or treat each type of livestock product as an individual cost center with appropriate allocations for capital, labor, utilities, feed and other expenses.
> 
> ...


I've looked for classes but can only find where the instructor comes to your place and goes over your farm operation. That's great, but I need to learn the basics first.

My husband always took care of all the farm financials, and his system is still a bit of a mystery to me. I'm going to keep looking for classes and will check online for the farm enterprise budget you suggested. Thanks!


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## CompostQueen (Oct 9, 2010)

heritagepigs said:


> what this thread is about is the erosion in farm income and the resulting loss of small farms, caused and continued by small farmers themselves.
> 
> This is nothing new. Farm aid has been highlighting this problem since 1985 and how much have small farm markets improved? People say that they support small farmers then they go around looking for the cheapest product. Small farmers say they support small farming then they cut their prices trying to out compete the other farmers.
> 
> ...


yes! Yes! Yes!!!!


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## shagerman (Apr 10, 2008)

do you realize the big .. huge pork raisers are using a horomone inducer to get those pigs to size for the market. know this for a fact. and i will sell mine a little cheaper. to keep them from going to a person. that does that. and keep that said buyer for years to come. and that inducer costs those bigger farmers 600.00 for a 1 pound coffee can full. then you wonder why they have to have so much money for theres,,, no thanks. ill raise mine natural,, and take a little less for better meat, i know of 3 big farms this way. they sell to the market.. and off to the market they go. then to the stores, i am proud i raise my own. at least i know what is in them.. and my cattle also. and by the way i am a small farmer. i have 10 acres. while those guys has hundreds of acres. so am i wrong to steer people away from there expensive prices. with doped up animals.?and try to make a buck here on my own farm with good raised animals?


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

If you can't make a buck, you can't farm.

The question keeps coming back to the price cutting part. Don't do it unless you have to. I can sell all my registered Tamworth gilts for $150 each. The boarlings that won't go for that, go for $5.00/lb in USDA pieces.

It may not work other places, but here I look a cheap yankee in the eye and say "premium product, premium price." It works often enough to move all the meat I can raise. Except the free range heritage turkeys that the local food pantry is serving this Thanksgiving.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

shagerman said:


> do you realize the big .. huge pork raisers are using a horomone inducer to get those pigs to size for the market.


This is not true. Hormones are NOT used in pork production.


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## shagerman (Apr 10, 2008)

really well. let me get the name of the stuff. then tell me diffrent, it came from there own mouths,


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Antibiotics are. And they are used to improve growth rates.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

HeritagePigs said:


> Antibiotics are. And they are used to improve growth rates.


Feed Grade Antibiotics have three uses in livestock feeds: Growth Promotion, Disease Prevention, and Disease Treatment.

The use of Growth Promotional levels in livestock production is virtually non-existent now. 

Feed Grade antibiotics are valuable tools for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases in livestock production.

Jim


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

"The use of Growth Promotional levels in livestock production is virtually non-existent now."

What is your source for that? 

What data do you have that "Feed Grade" antibiotics are any different than any other antibiotics fed to livestock? Don't all antibiotics contribute to antibiotic resistance in humans?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

There is naturally occurring bacteria in the gut of most animals. It is not the type that causes the illnesses we normally associate with disease.

However, it does eat the nutrients in the feed, reducing feed conversion efficiency.

I'm still looking for evidence that major pork producers and broiler producers add any antibiotics as a general matter of business. I'd like to see such information from a major pork producer or an Ag College. Don't bother me with your fringe group, &#8220;National Institute for the Reduction in Greenhouse Gasses and Feel Good About Your Pork Association" or other such questionable sources.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-06/osu-prw061108.php

Contact: Wondwossen Gebreyes
[email protected]
614-292-9559
Ohio State University 
Pigs raised without antibiotics more likely to carry bacteria, parasites
COLUMBUS, Ohio &#8211; While consumers are increasing demand for pork produced without antibiotics, more of the pigs raised in such conditions carry bacteria and parasites associated with food-borne illnesses, according to a new study.
A comparison of swine raised in antibiotic-free and conventional pork production settings revealed that pigs raised outdoors without antibiotics had higher rates of three food-borne pathogens than did pigs on conventional farms, which remain indoors and receive preventive doses of antimicrobial drugs.
"Animal-friendly, outdoor farms tend to have a higher occurrence of Salmonella, as well as higher rates of parasitic disease," said lead study author Wondwossen Gebreyes, associate professor of veterinary preventive medicine at Ohio State University. 
More than half of the pigs on antibiotic-free farms tested positive for Salmonella, compared to 39 percent of conventionally raised pigs infected with the bacterial pathogen. The presence of the Toxoplasma gondii parasite was detected in 6.8 percent of antibiotic-free pigs, compared to 1.1 percent of conventionally raised pigs. And two naturally raised pigs of the total 616 sampled tested positive for Trichinella spiralis, a parasite considered virtually eradicated from conventional U.S. pork operations.
http://www.thepigsite.com/swinenews/21473/voluntary-14day-antibiotic-withdrawal-period

All US pork producers are required to adhere to animal health-product withdrawal standards that meet US maximum residue limits. These standards were determined through science-based testing by the Food and Drug Administration to ensure the safety of all products entering the national food chain. However, some countries that purchase US pork products may have withdrawal requirements that exceed those on the product label.


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## MissMM (Aug 28, 2008)

You know - I've been watching this thread because I have a - small farm: operated by just me and my DH on about 80 acres of usable land - and was thinking about adding a few pigs. I guess I am really shocked to see that big, meaning corporate IMHO, pig farms are now considered 'conventional.' Wow. That makes me feel old.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Haypoint: "I'm still looking for evidence that major pork producers and broiler producers add any antibiotics as a general matter of business."

How about the National Pork Board? "There are animal health and societal benefits to using antibiotics to increase nutritional efficiency."

Or the Animal Health Institute? "For more than 40 years, antibiotics approved by the Food and Drug Administration have been used to treat sick animals, prevent illness and maintain the health of animals. Livestock and poultry producers rely on these products so they can provide U.S. consumers with the safest food possible."

Or the National Pork Producers Council? "Antibiotics have been used to treat and prevent disease or promote growth in animals for more than 50 years."


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

MissMM said:


> You know - I've been watching this thread because I have a - small farm: operated by just me and my DH on about 80 acres of usable land - and was thinking about adding a few pigs. I guess I am really shocked to see that big, meaning corporate IMHO, pig farms are now considered 'conventional.' Wow. That makes me feel old.


I'm curious, how would _you_ describe corporate at corporate model type hog farms if not conventional?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Thanks, Brian. Just prior to your reply, i posted again, with antibiotic info.
So, in relation to the OP, is there a value, to the consumer, for pork raised without antibiotics, but with a higher average amount of bacteria, vs. pork raised with antibiotics that reduce the bacteria AND the pigs are not butchered until the residual antibiotics are gone?

Since there is a tiny market for eggs from free range chickens, big corperate facilities are filling that need, wouldn't you think that if the consumer was willing to pay a few cents a pound extra for non-antibiotic fed pork, that there would be some corporation providing that?

Do it because you like it. Do it because you can sell the idea to your friends and neighbors. But don't think for a second that there are many that give two rips about your home raised pork.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

We just butchered our first hog. I don't ever want to buy pork from the store again. I figure it cost me more to do it that way (purchasing the pig, feeding it, processing) but I know it lived a happy life, was butchered humanely, and is providing us pork that is free of anything unnatural. That is priceless....


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

haypoint said:


> http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-06/osu-prw061108.php
> 
> Contact: Wondwossen Gebreyes
> [email protected]
> ...


I wish I'd seen this closer to it's date of release, I'd love to know how the researchers defined an "antibiotic free system". All that description tells us is that the hogs didn't receive antibiotics, it says nothing of the farms' other management practices. There is mention of "open fields" in passing, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of the hogs studied in "antibiotic free systems" weren't in pens, not fields. It also didn't include any control for biosecurity policies, feed handling, etc. All of which make a BIG difference in the health of any herd. I agree that knowing the likelihood of parasitic, bacterial and fungal presence in animals intended for food as associated with different rearing practices is important, but this report is incomplete at best and potentially very misleading.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

olivehill said:


> I wish I'd seen this closer to it's date of release, I'd love to know how the researchers defined an "antibiotic free system". All that description tells us is that the hogs didn't receive antibiotics, it says nothing of the farms' other management practices. There is mention of "open fields" in passing, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of the hogs studied in "antibiotic free systems" weren't in pens, not fields. It also didn't include any control for biosecurity policies, feed handling, etc. All of which make a BIG difference in the health of any herd. I agree that knowing the likelihood of parasitic, bacterial and fungal presence in animals intended for food as associated with different rearing practices is important, but this report is incomplete at best and potentially very misleading.


Please don't rely on the snippets I included in my post, open the web pages and read the whole articles. 

If you don't want to believe that non-antibiotic treated pigs have more disease and bacteria, fine. To me it seems logical. If you are assuming that pigs raised in fields would be exposed to fewer bacteria and diseases, I think you'd need to find the data to support that belief. I'm thinking that there are so many soil borne diseases the open range hogs will draw up those bacteria.

Is there any difference between a pig raised without antibiotics and one raised with them, BUT then held for a few weeks untill all traces of antibiotics are gone? If one sells at a premium above the other, it is do to salesmanship and not science.

What do you intend to do when you have offered your pork as raised without antibiotics and your pigs get sick? Do you justify antibiotics for treating illnesses, but not for controling bacteria on a day to day basis? Seems that if you charge extra for your non-medicated pork, you create the false belief that antibiotics are in store bought pork. Then if you have to medicate your pigs, you've laid a trap for yourself, " His medicated pigs are bad, but my medicated pigs are good." 

So, my home raised, non-antibiotic fed pork may have more bacteria and take more feed to get to market size, cost me more to raise than what I can buy locally or at auction, and the porkchops a bit tougher, but I still prefer my own pork.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Haypoint, I'm not going to give antibiotics unless there's a reason to. I've yet to have any sickness/diseases in the years I've had free roaming pigs, so I see no reason to pump them with the poison.

Back when it was store bought or from my pigs, the pork is fall off the bone tender. So is any meat I cook.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

haypoint said:


> Please don't rely on the snippets I included in my post, open the web pages and read the whole articles.


Please don't berate people for "not reading the whole articles" when clearly you didn't bother yourself. There is evidence in my post that proves I read the whole article. 



haypoint said:


> If you don't want to believe that non-antibiotic treated pigs have more disease and bacteria, fine.


Where did I say that? 



haypoint said:


> If you are assuming that pigs raised in fields would be exposed to fewer bacteria and diseases, I think you'd need to find the data to support that belief. I'm thinking that there are so many soil borne diseases the open range hogs will draw up those bacteria.


I'm not assuming anything. I'm expressing disappointment in the fact that those variables were not addressed in the report on this study. 



haypoint said:


> Is there any difference between a pig raised without antibiotics and one raised with them, BUT then held for a few weeks untill all traces of antibiotics are gone?


Absolutely. 



haypoint said:


> If one sells at a premium above the other, it is do to salesmanship and not science.


Absolutely not. 



haypoint said:


> What do you intend to do when you have offered your pork as raised without antibiotics and your pigs get sick? Do you justify antibiotics for treating illnesses, but not for controling bacteria on a day to day basis?


I can't speak for other farmers, but no, personally, I do not. We use strong preventative biosecurity to keep animals from becoming ill as much as possible. When one does become ill -- which has not happened with one of our hogs yet, but we have dealt with with the poultry -- we quarantine, provide supportive care and if the animal cannot kick the illness without modern medicines it is culled. 



haypoint said:


> Seems that if you charge extra for your non-medicated pork, you create the false belief that antibiotics are in store bought pork. Then if you have to medicate your pigs, you've laid a trap for yourself, " His medicated pigs are bad, but my medicated pigs are good."


As above, I do not medicate ever. No double standard here. 




haypoint said:


> So, my home raised, non-antibiotic fed pork may have more bacteria and take more feed to get to market size, cost me more to raise than what I can buy locally or at auction, and the porkchops a bit tougher, but I still prefer my own pork.


None of this is true. It seems to me you've got quite a vendetta against an industry you know nothing about. Why such a hot button topic for you?


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Do it because you like it. Do it because you can sell the idea to your friends and neighbors. But don't think for a second that there are many that give two rips about your home raised pork.


But I don't need "many", I need enough to buy 100 pigs/year, split between weaners and meat. I'm not at 100/year quite yet, but I've had no trouble selling what I do have.


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> So, my home raised, non-antibiotic fed pork may have more bacteria and take more feed to get to market size, cost me more to raise than what I can buy locally or at auction, and the porkchops a bit tougher, but I still prefer my own pork.


A. If it tastes better, why not. Or are you going to claim that pastured, not penned, but actually getting significant nutrition for foraging, pork doesn't taste different than CAFO pork? I personally like it better, but that might just be me.

B. My pork does not cost me more than supermarket pork would, substantially less in fact. I might be able to get one at auction and slaughter it myself for less, but the per pound difference would be maybe a nickel. I do charge my customers more. They agree it tastes better, and they're happier eating a pig that came up to them for a scratch.

They probably do eat more feed, and certainly take longer, but less than half of the feed is purchased, so my cost is less.

I have no qualms about administering antibiotics to actually sick animals. It seems to happen with sheep all the time. I've done it once for a pig, a brood sow from whom we had to pull a sideways piglet. 

My issue is with the daily administration of antibiotics in feed, for whatever reason. The CDC has claimed for years that this breeds resistant pathogens, both directly in the animals and indirectly from antibiotics excreted into the environment. Ask me if I choose to believe the CDC, with a coherent story, or a drug company saying "trust us."

I also want to echo the previous poster: What's your beef with a niche producer producing a premium product sold at a premium price? 

And finally, no the big corporations are not filling the demand for real outdoor eggs. (My chickens eat too many bugs for an "organic" label.) I charge just what the supermarket does for organic free range and have to turn away customers.. My customers and I agree that eggs laid within the week by hens primarily forage fed win every time. When they switch to layer ration about now, the hens don't like it and neither do we.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

FrankRichards said:


> A. If it tastes better, why not. Or are you going to claim that pastured, not penned, but actually getting significant nutrition for foraging, pork doesn't taste different than CAFO pork? I personally like it better, but that might just be me.
> 
> B. My pork does not cost me more than supermarket pork would, substantially less in fact. I might be able to get one at auction and slaughter it myself for less, but the per pound difference would be maybe a nickel. I do charge my customers more. They agree it tastes better, and they're happier eating a pig that came up to them for a scratch.
> 
> ...



A. Iâm not making any claims.

B. I am not talking about supermarket prices.

If half your feed is foraged, your costs are less. But if you are feeding farm raised marketable products, they have value.,

Not everyone in this discussion shares your viewpoint on antibiotics. I do.

You want to believe the CDC when it says that regular doses of antibiotics causes resistant strains, yet not believe other data about antibiotics leaving the pig prior to slaughter? Selective belief systems are common.

I donât have a beef with any niche producer selling anything for whatever price they can. The question is how much is justified. Telling a new hog producer that he can get some magically high amount for his pork is mean. It is the salesmanship, building the belief that they are getting something special. Most folks do not care. Buying pork an large quantities, like 40 or 80 pounds is a problem for many consumers. Some people can do it, many canât. I see the results of those that canât at the Livestock Auction every week. People that thought they could find buyers, only to discover a lot of that interest was just hot air.
Herbrickâs , a huge egg producer in Michigan is providing eggs from free range hens and from organically fed hens. They are filling what was once a niche market. Their eggs are in supermarket display cases in 24 hours of falling out of a chicken.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

olivehill said:


> Please don't berate people for "not reading the whole articles" when clearly you didn't bother yourself. There is evidence in my post that proves I read the whole article.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was not my intent to berate anyone. I should have suggested you contact the author. His phone number was listed and perhaps he could have explained it better and answered your questions.
âWhere did I say that?â 
Because you questioned the validity of the study, it seems you are resistant to accepting the data. The data clearly shows the higher amounts of disease ands bacteria in untreated pigs. I was just acknowledging your resistance of acceptance. 
âI'm not assuming anything. I'm expressing disappointment in the fact that those variables were not addressed in the report on this study.â 
I just questioned your statements and asked for data to support a differing belief, then I added my belief. 
âAbsolutely.â 
Huh? Without any variables, two pigs in two pens and access to two pastures and fresh feed and water. One gets a tiny amount of antibiotic, one doesnât. One pig isnât feeding bacteria in his gut, one does. When they reach market weight, both pigs are given the same non-medicated feed for a few weeks. Both hogs have blood drawn, Both show no traces of antibiotics. Yet you say, â Absolutely, they are different.â That is called salesmanship, not science.

I know there is a religion that doesnât believe in medications. Christian Science? Anyway, they get in the news from time to time for child abuse for refusal to help cure a childâs illnesses. I guess a County Animal Control Officer could question you for letting your animals suffer through an illness when medications are available. Many people do not have your extreme standard. 
âNone of this is true.â Sighâ¦.. âWhy such a hot button topic for you?â Sigh, sighâ¦..


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

haypoint said:


> It was not my intent to berate anyone. I should have suggested you contact the author. His phone number was listed and perhaps he could have explained it better and answered your questions.


As was his email. That's why I said I wish I'd seen it closer to publication. He may respond now, but I would bet a pretty penny he's moved on to many other studies since this one and may not have the information as fresh in his memory as he once did. 



> Because you questioned the validity of the study, it seems you are resistant to accepting the data.


I didn't question the validity of the study. I questioned the incomplete nature of the _report on the study_. And no where did I resist accepting the data. As a matter of fact I expressed the fact that I agree with author in that collecting and understanding such data is important. 



> I was just acknowledging your resistance of acceptance.


Acknowledging something that didn't exist...



> I just questioned your statements and asked for data to support a differing belief, then I added my belief.


You didn't question my statements at all. You inferred an intent that did not exist in my post and questioned _that_ intent. 

No where did I say that I "don't want to believe that non-antibiotic treated pigs have more disease and bacteria" or that I was "assuming that pigs raised in fields would be exposed to fewer bacteria and diseases,". You manufactured that intent in your head and started a debate based on it. And then continued on to question my rearing practices as if it were relevant because you'd erroneously assumed I was "resistant" to the data presented. 

No, I don't use antibiotics on my farm, not preventatively and not for treatment of illness but in no way am I "resistant" to data being collected and presented on the rearing practices of livestock as they relate to the presence of pathogens in animals intended for human consumption. The only thing I am "resistant" to is those studies being reported on incompletely and released to the masses to potentially mislead consumers and producers alike. There was, in that report, no consideration of the missing variables; variables that anyone with half an ounce of common sense can see are incredibly relevant to the data collected. Feed handling alone is a well-known and very accepted part of disease prevention in both conventional and alternative farming. And while soil borne bacteria, fungus and disease is present in both outdoor pen and pasture setups it is also well-known and widely-accepted that concentration of livestock in a given area strongly affects the likelihood of parasitic presence in those animals and the likelihood of illness as a result of that presence. 



> Huh? Without any variables, two pigs in two pens and access to two pastures and fresh feed and water. One gets a tiny amount of antibiotic, one doesnât. One pig isnât feeding bacteria in his gut, one does. When they reach market weight, both pigs are given the same non-medicated feed for a few weeks. Both hogs have blood drawn, Both show no traces of antibiotics. Yet you say, â Absolutely, they are different.â That is called salesmanship, not science.


You didn't ask if there was a difference in the chemical composition of the pigs' blood or if there was a difference in the trace amount of antibiotics in their bloodstream you asked, and I quote: 



> Is there any difference between a pig raised without antibiotics and one raised with them, BUT then held for a few weeks untill all traces of antibiotics are gone?


Yes, there is. The pig raised without antibiotics could not contribute to the development of antibiotic resistant strains of pathogens. That's not salesmanship, that's science. 

Just to point out though, your application of the information presented in this report is incorrect. The report did not show that antibiotics administered to hogs in identical, outdoor environments would reduce the presence of pathogens in the hogs that received them. The study in this report compared hogs in outdoor set-ups that did not receive medication with hogs in conventional, indoor set-ups who did. 

I didn't even have to "read the whole article" for that.  It was included in your snippet:



> pigs raised outdoors without antibiotics had higher rates of three food-borne pathogens than did pigs on conventional farms, which remain indoors and receive preventive doses of antimicrobial drugs.





> I know there is a religion that doesnât believe in medications. Christian Science? Anyway, they get in the news from time to time for child abuse for refusal to help cure a childâs illnesses. I guess a County Animal Control Officer could question you for letting your animals suffer through an illness when medications are available.


Who said I let them suffer? I said we quarantine, provide supportive care and if they are not able to improve w/o medication they are culled. Do you take your child to the Dr. the first time he coughs? Or do you wait to see if it's just a cough that will pass, meanwhile giving him supportive care -- throat soothing drinks, etc -- first? Do you call the vet out at the first sign of illness in your animals? Or do you see if the minor symptoms pass or get worse before making that call? There is nothing different about my process than anyone else's. The only difference is the action taken when the illness is determined to require treatment, others pick up a bottle of meds, I cull. No more suffering here than anywhere else. 



> Many people do not have your extreme standard.


I'm aware of that. You didn't question other peoples' practices though, you questioned mine. Why? I haven't a clue as my initial response was completely free of any bias or mention of my personal policy on anti-biotics for my animals, but question them you did and I thought it polite to respond.


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> A. I&#8217;m not making any claims.


Except that the meat would be tougher and have more bacteria. BTW, more bugs in the digestive tract and/or poop does not mean more bugs in the meat. I grant your two samples of trichinosis, but echo Olivehill's questions about the study.



haypoint said:


> B. I am not talking about supermarket prices.


Here in New England, you are. The nearest commodity grain growing areas are 300 miles from me, and electricity to store your whole frozen pig is high as well. It really doesn't make sense to buy a market weight pig at auction and process it/have it processed. The CAFO pricing model works only if the CAFO is either in corn country, or someplace where the transportation difference can be made up by flouting environmental and immigration laws.



haypoint said:


> If half your feed is foraged, your costs are less. But if you are feeding farm raised marketable products, they have value.


Foraged and scrounged. I doubt anyone in New England is commercially raising pigs even 90% on purchased pig ration. I personally have a source of expired human food (not garbage, this is preplate stuff). I do have to go get it, so there is some cost. Many others do as well, or feed whey or skim milk from dairy operations.



haypoint said:


> Not everyone in this discussion shares your viewpoint on antibiotics. I do.


You do not. You believe in feeding livestock antibiotics on a day in, day out basis. I believe in giving an ailing or injured animal antibiotics either to cure an infection, or prevent one in a temporarily extra vulnerable animal. The same criteria, I, and the human medical establishment apply to people. 



haypoint said:


> You want to believe the CDC when it says that regular doses of antibiotics causes resistant strains, yet not believe other data about antibiotics leaving the pig prior to slaughter? Selective belief systems are common.


That is flatly untrue, and the same (IMO deliberate) misunderstanding that you have consistently used in this discussion. The antibiotic may be gone, but the drug resistant pathogens the continuous antibiotic dose has bred aren't. You are the one with the selective belief system.

In the four years I've raised pigs, I have administered thee boluses and 5 injections of antibiotics. You (with my herd) would have administered well over 10,000 "feed grade" doses. Visiting which herd with an open cut would make a rational person worry about MRSA and toxic E. coli? I know my answer.

I sincerely believe that 50-75 years of high pharma profits, high meat processor profits and slightly lower meat prices is not a good tradeoff for losing the effectiveness of antibiotics to actually cure infections, in people and livestock, centuries before they would otherwise become useless. I'm old enough that -something- will likely always work for me. Not so much my kids.



haypoint said:


> I don&#8217;t have a beef with any niche producer selling anything for whatever price they can. The question is how much is justified. Telling a new hog producer that he can get some magically high amount for his pork is mean. It is the salesmanship, building the belief that they are getting something special. Most folks do not care. Buying pork an large quantities, like 40 or 80 pounds is a problem for many consumers. Some people can do it, many can&#8217;t. I see the results of those that can&#8217;t at the Livestock Auction every week. People that thought they could find buyers, only to discover a lot of that interest was just hot air.


Umm, I got my ----- handed to me on this very thread for talking about things like 'justified'. So let's go with 'what the traffic will bear'. I still have a day job, while I ramp up production. I can't raise enough pigs to make a living, but I also do ducks, geese and specialty veg. Between them, life looks good. If I miss, "pig food".



haypoint said:


> Herbrick&#8217;s , a huge egg producer in Michigan is providing eggs from free range hens and from organically fed hens. They are filling what was once a niche market. Their eggs are in supermarket display cases in 24 hours of falling out of a chicken.


I'm impressed, that takes twice a day delivery. I never claim better than 36 hours to allow for packing and drive time. Still, my winter eggs meet USDA free range specs, and taste about as good. My summer "bug fed" eggs, from hens that forage 80% of their food are better, and I'm trying to have as many as I can sell.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

In my experience the older the animal, the tougher the meat, lean tends to be tougher, too. I accept this.

I was speaking from my experiences in my area. Cost wise, I can buy at auction a finished hog cheaper than raising it.

So it is safe to eat a pig that you have treated with antibiotics?
I was focusing on the anti-biotic part of the argument. I guess I was still thinking about earlier concerns about pig growth hormones causing early development in children (also not true). So it is the resistant bacteria that you are worried about? This is a slaughter pig we are talking about? In this same post, you wrote: &#8220;BTW, more bugs in the digestive tract and/or poop does not mean more bugs in the meat.&#8221; So if there is some sort of resistant pathogen, it is in the digestive tract and not a concern. The concern would be if a pathogen was resistant and passed it on to your other pigs. That could be a concern if you had a thousand sows in a CAFO, No concern to the homesteader that buys a few feeders each year and a minor (highly unlikely) concern for a small operation.
The development of resistant pathogens can happen both ways, during a continuous feeding AND when treating a problem. Most of the resistant strains in humans comes from patients not completing their dose, failing to treat well beyond the time they feel sick. Your limited use of anti-biotics mirrors that danger. 

Nice try. If Herbricks collects eggs for 6 hours, cleans and packages them quickly and delivers them to Kroger 6 hours later, they&#8217;ll be on sale within 24 hours. While that earlier batch of eggs was being cleaned, another batch of eggs was being laid. After cleaning and packaging, those eggs may go to Meijer Supermarket. Being so large, they don&#8217;t have to wait a day or two to get an order filled. So, with daily delivery, the eggs are within 24 hours old when placed in the display cases. If the store is a low volume place, those fresh delivered eggs will sit around awhile.

So you aren&#8217;t claiming to not use an anti-biotic. Supermarket pork is anti-biotic free, because producers must wait until it is out of their system. You aren&#8217;t claiming to be hormone-free. Producers do not treat hogs with hormones. So all pork is hormone free. You state that grain and soybeans are pricy back East and electricity costly, too. The reason folks flock to buy your pork is because you tell them it tastes better and those that have tried it, agree? So they pay you extra and then pay the high electric bill to keep their pork frozen? That takes salesmanship.

The small family operated slaughterhouse in this area sells a lot of locally grown pork. When they can&#8217;t buy enough locally, they buy at auction, 100 miles away. So, locally grown and commercially produced is all sold without distinction. Everybody raves about their meat. Even when it comes from a CAFO. That takes salesmanship.

Around here, folks are close with their money. You can sell pork all day long, IF you price it close or below Supermarket prices. At that rate, you make very little money.

I raise hogs like you do. I prefer it that way. What splits us up is that I don't pretend that my pork is superior to store bought and I don't think the CAFO is evil. Maybe your store sells crappy meat?


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## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

Why yes, I do think my store sells crappy meat. I'm also unimpressed with generic onions and garlic compared to mine, and I don't think anyone likes supermarket tomatoes.

I do think pastured meat and poultry (not just mine) taste better. Yes I have repeat customers, so they must agree. People here are pretty tight with a buck too, but more willing to pay for extra value than some places I've lived. 

I have never actually sold a finished hog for slaughter. I use a USDA processor and sell retail cuts, or sell them as weaners. This does stick me with the freezer bill, but greatly expands my pool of potential customers. I'm pretty sure I mentioned that I sell retail cuts more than once.

I'm also unclear what gave you the idea that I didn't finish the vet prescribed course of antibiotics on the pig I did treat. FWIW, I did. I did mention that it was a brood sow, so the conclusion that she was not meant for slaughter would seem warranted. If she has one more birthing issue, she will be eaten, but it will be pushing 2 years after the single course of antibiotics.

A small operator cannot compete on price with the big guys. You need some reason that your product is worth more, to enough people. Yes, it does take salesmanship. Telling the truth and believing it makes repeat selling so much easier.


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