# eBay touting Buyer Protection



## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

As a seller I am sick and tired of how eBay keeps promoting their "buyer protection" from those unscrupulous sellers. Meanwhile there are more and more 'bad' buyers because the system is deeply slanted in their direction.

Every message I get now from eBay touts how they (eBay) protects the buyers so a buyer need have no concern about anything at all. But there is virtually no protection for sellers though. As if all the site is, about is buying.


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## sunflower-n-ks (Aug 7, 2006)

Um, ya gotta have the buyers for the sellers to sell anything.... But even as a buyer, the ads stating "buyer protection" are overdone and get old. It also comes back to bite the buyer at the least expected times.

Buyers being able to get their money back from an "alleged" bad deal IS encouraging "theft by claiming a bad deal" against sellers. I encountered it when I tried to buy an item from a well known company in a nearby larger town. They had the item I needed and would have shipped it. I said I would pay by debit card, he said "no" company policy. Huh? He located the item on their website, and I bought it with the debit card that way. People buy, have the product, claim fault, get their money back, the store is out the product and their money. So now honest people are going to have a harder time buying. And, of course the price is going up to cover those loses.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Many sellers are much like me, very marginal. Barely making expenses on most sales with the occasional bidding war to get the occasional price up. Selling used, collectible and niche items. For us one rip-off buyer and all our income for the past several sales is gone. eBay provides no protection for us from unscrupulous buyers.

Currently eBay is trying to change what it sees as its "image." The image of being the internet version of a flea market. To us, that's a good thing. To the yuppies running eBay it is not. They want their eBay to cater to big retailers (like Toys 'r Us, , big electronics dealers, Chinese drop shippers, et al) and effectively marginalize and eliminate the small sellers and niche items you think of when you think "eBay".

Consequently they have done things like raise fees, roll shipping (S&H) into the total price of the item rather than enforce their longstanding rule against excessive S&H charges, create their DSR ratings and provide even worse customer service than they are infamous for. 
The rolling of the S&H charge into the price of the item for fee purposes is meant to encourage free shipping. Supposedly a boon to buyers. But it also harms the buyer in that it eliminates the incentive to offer combined shipping. Something that hurts both the buyer and seller. 
All the rules (and what is clearly a selective enforcement) actually favor eBay and allow it to "discipline" sellers through such things as lowered 'search visibility' (which means your items aren't seen as highly ranked when someone is looking for them), limiting the number of items one can put up for sale or even simply eliminating the sellers ability to sell at all. Although allowing that individual to buy, of course.
There are just too many of these specifics to even remeber at one time, much less post. 
I'm just ticked.


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## Forlane (Jul 17, 2010)

My wife and I had an ebay business for about 3 years. We were doing about 10k in sales a month until we found a new product source, which brought us up to about 10k a week.

Long story short a lady purchased a purse for $2500 or so, now with high end merchandise bad buyers will purchase, use it for an event then ask for a return, for this very common reason we had no return policy.

A couple of weeks later after the money from her purchase had been cycled back into the business the lady emails us demanding a refund because her husband was ----ed that she spent so much on a purse. We told her sorry but we had a no return policy.

Upset that she couldn't return the purse she threatened to tell ebay that it was fake. We told her we had no problem proving authenticity with ebay and that she can do as she wishes. 

Little did we know, eBay doesn't care if you can prove it or not in such cases and demanded we refund the buyer. After refunding her they sent an email to every one of our customers saying we sold fake designer items. 

Overnight our business was ruined because we were unable to liquidate and refund everyone for the past 2 months of sales. Not only that but Paypal deducted $2200+ from my bank account multiple times, until I filed a complaint with the bank and ordered them to stop all action from Paypal.

Sellers beware. eBay and Paypal only care about themselves, as with any corporation profit motive and all that.

-Chris


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## Bandit (Oct 5, 2008)

Not to say I told You so , but I have been warning members here about the Direction that Fee Bay and Not Your Pal have been Heading . Go to the Free Bay Community , Discussion Forums , Especially the Trust and Safety and Seller Central Forums .
They are filled with the type of stories as Forlane's , and Good Sellers are Leaving Every Day because of it. 
Also there NEW Computer program that is linking a current member to a suspended members and if it finds one You Are Suspended for Life with NO APPEAL . 
( If You ever logged in on the Wi Fi at the Atlanta Airport ? You are Toast Also " But they are Looking Into It ") (But those post are Disappearing as fast as they are posted " )
Members of 10 + and over 4000 positive feed backs , are being suspended for life over ONE $ 3.99 sale with All 1's given in there DSR .
Bob
Ps
Awaiting comments from those here who have defended Fee Bay , and told Me that That Fee Bay doesn't Do Things Like That and I don't even Sell There . ( Thats because I have seen friends and spoken with Auction Friends who have lost a LOT of money with there New Policies of SNAD and " The Buyer is All ways Right "


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Bandit said:


> Also there NEW Computer program that is linking a current member to a suspended members and if it finds one You Are Suspended for Life with NO APPEAL .
> ( If You ever logged in on the Wi Fi at the Atlanta Airport ? You are Toast Also )


Tell me more about this "linkage" to suspended members. I had not heard about that. Several of my "bad" buyers are long gone (no longer registered) and may have been suspended. What is that all about?


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Forlane said:


> My wife and I had an ebay business for about 3 years. We were doing about 10k in sales a month until we found a new product source, which brought us up to about 10k a week.
> 
> Upset that she couldn't return the purse she threatened to tell ebay that it was fake. We told her we had no problem proving authenticity with ebay and that she can do as she wishes.
> 
> ...


While bad buyers are protected and I can understand eBay's awful behavior sending emails to ALL your customers and ruining your business seems a bit over the top (sarcasm)> Have you contacted your State Attorney General or a local attorney who would just love to file a suit (class action?) against eBay for ruining your entire business. 
I have filed a com plaint against eBay in regard to their freezing Paypal payments based on DSR ratings.


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## Bandit (Oct 5, 2008)

This post is at the Top of the Trust and Safety Forum Now
Over 10,000 Feedback and Suspended for Life over a .99 Sale . http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Trust-Safety-Safe/Dsr-Suspended-Indefinitely/5200006158
Bob


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Bandit said:


> This post is at the Top of the Trust and Safety Forum Now
> Over 10,000 Feedback and Suspended for Life over a .99 Sale . http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Trust-Safety-Safe/Dsr-Suspended-Indefinitely/5200006158
> Bob


Thanks!


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## Bandit (Oct 5, 2008)

I know that the post about suspending over using the Atlanta Airport was in the Seller-Central Forum the other night , but I can't seem to find it now , along with a couple that I Know I posted in ??? , must be that Fee Bay Ghost again .
Bob
I tried to search for it , and it goes to a " Not Responding Link "


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## Bandit (Oct 5, 2008)

Here is another post showing that the Fee Bay Bot's Are Running the Show and Trust and Safety can do Nothing about it. ( Or Over Rule Them )
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Seller-Central/What-A-Shock/5200002633


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

eBay T&S are not what you seem to think. Not actual people who have some ability to right wrongs and correct abuses. They are a phone bank that answers the continually ringing phones at eBay central, reading from an "answer tree" the bottom line of which is- "there is nothing I can do." 
T&S is just a euphemism for Take-it & Shove-It. eBay works off of arcane, secret protocol software that cannot be overridden, overwritten or changed for any individual situation or case. The buyer is always right. 
There are two classes of seller. The ones eBay wants and the ones it doesn't want. If you are a big Chinese or other corporation they eBay wants you and the rules simply don't apply. If you are everybody else eBay doesn't and the "rules" do.


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## Bandit (Oct 5, 2008)

Hi Justin
I see You have Your eyes wide open , You should post on there forums , let me know when , so I can set my stopwatch ,
Ps
Sometimes callers get the " India " call center , they are totally clueless about american words and sentences .
Pps
You forget to mention USA sellers like Geoffrey the Giraffe , I actually watched his negs disappear .
The cleaned up by E Bay version
http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=toysrus&Dirn=Received+by&ref=home
Bob


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Yo bandit- I actually just did post there just now (my cousin) but it is really depressing. What can one really say? "You've been screwed pepito, et al...." There is nothing that can be said but a litany of griping. 

eBay is determined to dump its old guard. The folks who made the site what it was, yesterday and could be again. But they, the administration over there, just don't want it. They want big sellers of new products and that is what they will end up with. It _is_ their site and they can do as they please. 

I personally don't like that they plan on holding money paid to ME for merchandise I am expected to then ship from out of my own pocket under the hope that the buyer won't renege and eBay will release my money.
I filed a complaint with my state attorney general. We'll see what happens. 

Meranwhile I have a list of other auction sites. The emails of everyone who has bought from me for the past 6+ years and my own website where I can tell people where I have gone after being kicked off eBay.


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## Bandit (Oct 5, 2008)

Justin
It does look like You have all the bases covered with Your e-mail list and Your own web site , You just have to start selling on more sites and let Your name get out there .
I don't know if You follow Seller Central , but they talk all the time about how to get Neg's Removed if Your Buyer was Tossed .
The post I am following right now in T & S is called " Offensive Store " can't wait to order some T-Shirts from there web site . ( easy to find it , You can do the same)
Bob


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## Bandit (Oct 5, 2008)

Justin
This is what JD the head Yuppie at the Bay wants , NOT YOU .
Here is a list of there " Prized Anchor Stores "
http://stores.shop.ebay.com/_sl.html?_an=1
Plus don't forget that they bought GSI Commerce at the beginning of the month for $ 2.4 Billion .


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

I see that Susan Sontag gives her imprimatur to the bookstore. That's certainly a big selling point to me.
Too much money, not enough brains and an excess of greed and myopia.


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Bandit said:


> Justin
> Recession
> Is when Your neighbor loses His job
> Depression
> ...


I seem to have heard a variation on this before. About thirty years ago?


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## Bandit (Oct 5, 2008)

LOL
Who ever thought We would see a President that made Jimmy Carter look good ?


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Whoever thought we'd have a prezidunce who doesn't know who Jimmy Carter is?
Or makes John Donohoe look like a good administrator?


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## Bandit (Oct 5, 2008)

How would You like to wake up in the morning and find out that You just got 191 Negatives from the same Buyer ? On a lost lot of coins !
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Seller-Central/191-Negatives-From/5200007004
I do realize that it looks like she is Drop-Shipping , BUT ?
http://www.toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=diamondsbyday+&Dirn=Received+by


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Every time you add those eBay forum URLs I end up on the g-d forum. Then block somebody else. 

It seems like people really think that eBay is dealing in good faith when, IMHO they are dealing in no faith at all.


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## Bandit (Oct 5, 2008)

Sorry ound:
I looked for the thread's about the Atlanta airport I found references to the original post's from june 3rd to 9th but ALL the post about those being Suspended have Seemed To Vanish ???? ( must be a computer glitch )


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

Yep. Thios "glitches" seem to happen with a fair amount of regularity, too.


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

eBay's DSRs are really out of line and impossible to achieve. I'm going to lose my top-rated seller status over 3 1's and 2's from domestic buyers this month on shipping and handling -- never mind at last check that ALL my other feedback is straight across 5's on shipping and handling. I have no negs, one neutral (and the buyer tried to revise that and couldn't for some reason), perfect fives for international buyers, and my stars are 4.98, 4.99, 4.97 and 4.96 on the shipping and handling.

In my day job? Among other things I sometimes handle customer surveys for a very large company with very, very good customer service. When a customer survey comes back with a negative review I get to call the customers to find out why ... one time a member gave us really bad customer service scores on a customer survey card because the person she spoke to had a very light southern accent and she claimed they didn't speak 'proper' English and we should only hire people who speak 'proper' English. I've also talked to a customer who was angry because the cost of something increased $.12 cents from one month to the next.

Some people ... just aren't rational. :grumble:

(On the other hand, resolving problems with irrational and angry people has certainly prepared me for selling on eBay -- LOLOL!)

And this takes us back to eBay, and their DSRs. I've had the store since May 2010. Since May 2010, on shipping and handling, I've had 1 "4" and one "3" and now, just in the last month, 3 "1s" and "2s" -- this is out of a couple THOUSAND transactions. All 1's and 2's have been on very low dollar items from newbie buyers -- I suspect a competitor may be messing with me, but when I reported this suspicion to eBay I got a form letter back in which the CSR called me "Jim" (totally got my name wrong) and copied and pasted eBay's DSR policies and didn't answer my question at all. I'm not sure he understood my question.

So -- here's where it stands. I have 650+ "5's" to counter those 3 low scores. No negs, at all. One neutral, resolved. No buyer cases. Tons of happy feedback. I've dealt with buyer complaints efficiently and professionally. I have perfect 5's from international buyers. No violations. I play by eBay's rules. I sell thousands of dollars of merchandise a month. 

And ... I'm going to lose my top rated seller status.

---? 

It's too high of a barrier. It's not realistic, or fair. It doesn't represent the reality of selling merchandise, or the reality that some sellers will try to sabotage their competitors. 

On the other hand, even if I'm no longer a TRS -- I will still make a profit. So this is an annoyance and an aggravation, but it is not the end of the world. (And I'm going to spend a few hours today seeing if I can track a link down between those star-dinging buyers myself --one of the OTHER things I do in my day job is a small amount of fraud detection. Reverse telephone lookup and online geneology datases and Facebook, here I come ...)


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

CYGNET: You are missing the point of the DSR ratings. They are meant to undermine sellers, especially those small sellers selling used stuff and giving eBay the image of the biggest flea-market on the internet.

Were you aware that the cut-off for DSR ratings in any category was 4.6? If you average below that you are considered as underperforming. That means three-5s and two fours in any one category sink your boat. If eBay wants it to. The buyers are led to believe that a four is a great score, a five is for exceptional service in the category. Inviting fours to be left.

Ones and twos don't have to left by different people. One person, buying say several items, then leaving ones or twos across the board and you have had it. It could be your ex-wife, worst enemy, competitor or simply a prankster. And you're gone if eBay wants to get rid of you. You're allowed as _!many!_ as three in any one category. 

The DSR ratings were initiated to give eBay a pretext to get rid of those sellers it does not want to be associated with.

You may note that there are many sellers with feedback of 96% and less happily selling away, with lowered DSR scores as well. BUT they are mostly selling items eBay wants on their site and/or big corporations and foreign drop-shippers. That is the image and seller base eBay's current corporate directorate wants.


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

Actually, I think they aren't trying to get rid of small sellers per se, they're trying to get rid of sellers they don't make money on. Even if they don't have to pay it, every case opened costs eBay money in labor costs. Every complaint they have to handle costs eBay money. Every seller who ticks off a buyer to the point where the buyer says foo on all of eBay costs eBay money.

So they've made an iron clad rule that sellers who can't meet their standards are banned for life. Too many cases (which cost eBay labor, if nothing else), too many complaints, too many irritated buyers ... they might as well get rid of that seller, because that seller isn't making eBay money. I suspect the reason why they count ALL cases against a seller is that cases cost eBay about the same regardless of if they're found in favor of the seller or not ... the seller pays the refund cost from his Paypal account (like it or not) but eBay has to pay wages & administration costs that are probably about the same either way.

So they want sellers to deal with it themselves, and harshly discourage sellers from letting problems turn into Buyer Protection cases (even if the seller is in the right.) And I suspect that they are calculating that that low scores mean a seller might cost them money down the road in cases opened, or lost customers. 

Personally, I think eBay's going about it the wrong way, though. They need to ban buyers who open too many cases, and allow sellers to block buyers who have opened cases. I'd LOVE to have the ability to block buyers who have over, say, 1% negs, who have given less than 95% 5's or who have opened more than, say, 1% cases. I bet eBay would spend a lot less money on dealing with administrative crap, and that would pretty much eliminate all the scammers I deal with ... 




Justin Thyme said:


> CYGNET: You are missing the point of the DSR ratings. They are meant to undermine sellers, especially those small sellers selling used stuff and giving eBay the image of the biggest flea-market on the internet.
> 
> Were you aware that the cut-off for DSR ratings in any category was 4.6? If you average below that you are considered as underperforming. That means three-5s and two fours in any one category sink your boat. If eBay wants it to. The buyers are led to believe that a four is a great score, a five is for exceptional service in the category. Inviting fours to be left.
> 
> ...


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## Justin Thyme (Jun 3, 2011)

So utterly drinking, heck, bathing in the Kool-Aid and drinking the bathwater.

Look at the forums oh ye of little faith. You'll find sellers with 100% positive feedback averaging over 4.8/9 in every category getting "banned for life" for a few low DSR ratings, often from just one person, occasionally from just a few.

For instance I have five 1s & 2s overall. Three from one person, out of ~150 ratings. Most of my ratings are 5s. Those three are from a person who sells the same items I do. 

If you look at the forums you'll see suspensions and bans of people with thousands of positive feedbacks. People who have been selling for a decade or more. People with loyal, long time buyers. Do you really think that these sellers cost eBay more than they pay in fees? Several, perhaps many, paid eBay several thousand dollars a month in fees. Do you think that their dissatisfied sellers filing a few, if any, disputes or calling support, actually cost eBay more than they made?

No John Donohoe, CEO, announced a while back that he wanted to purge eBay of sellers of used merchandise, small sellers who made eBay (in his words) "the flea market of the internet" and focus on big sellers of new product. 

He proceeded to initiate policies that absolutely favor the buyer over the seller. Sellers can't leave negative feedback, for example, so sellers can't be warned about "bad" buyers. A buyer _has to bid and not pay_ to get in trouble. But he can bid, pay, then file a dispute and end up getting his money back and keeping the item. And the seller can do nothing about it. This has happened a lot. 





Cygnet said:


> Actually, I think they aren't trying to get rid of small sellers per se, they're trying to get rid of sellers they don't make money on. Even if they don't have to pay it, every case opened costs eBay money in labor costs. Every complaint they have to handle costs eBay money. Every seller who ticks off a buyer to the point where the buyer says foo on all of eBay costs eBay money.
> 
> So they've made an iron clad rule that sellers who can't meet their standards are banned for life. Too many cases (which cost eBay labor, if nothing else), too many complaints, too many irritated buyers ... they might as well get rid of that seller, because that seller isn't making eBay money. I suspect the reason why they count ALL cases against a seller is that cases cost eBay about the same regardless of if they're found in favor of the seller or not ... the seller pays the refund cost from his Paypal account (like it or not) but eBay has to pay wages & administration costs that are probably about the same either way.
> 
> ...


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