# New smaller desktops



## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

Anyone want to offer an opinion on the new desktops that are roughly 1/3 the size of a typical computer? My wife needs a new computer for her beauty salon and has limited space at the front desk. Are upgrades, if and when needed more expensive or difficult to install, etc.? The brand I've seen is HP, but I'm sure there are others. Is this the future of desktops?

She doesn't want a laptop up there.


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

There's nothing really wrong with them. There are two things to be aware of, though:

1. Since they're 'small form factor', they're not as expandable as some systems might be - for instance, they might only have one card slot, versus 3.
2. They usually tend to be a bit more proprietary than others.

This being said, they're not deal killers, IMHO. Darn near any accessories nowadays are either wireless or USB, and you can ALWAYS add that to any computer.

If she wants a computer for a front desk, that'd be a good choice, IMHO.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

IMAC or Apple MINI


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## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

Thanks Kung for the reply. We are both pretty computer dumb when it comes to data transfer, etc.. and since this is her business, she doesn't want to take any chances or be down for more than a few hours (hopefully in the evening). I wonder how much would be a fair charge for a local computer geek, I mean technician, to transfer the files from her old one. Basically all she has is print shop and the beauty shop program for appointments and inventory. Not really lots of files, photos, word documents, etc. They are not being responsive as to price and once they find out it's a business, then they want to come out and give an estimate. Her old computer is a dinosaur (maybe Pent. 1 or 2 or something).


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

For a business, I'd recommend staying away from the "big box" store type computers regardless of size - instead going with something like Dell or IBM/Lenovo with a 3yr onsite warranty. The IBM Thinkcentre is available in an "ultra small" form factor. Both Dell and IBM/Lenovo have very competitive pricing.

Migrating the existing software (especially the beauty shop inventory/schedule software, which most likely is some type of database) could range from somewhat simple to impossible. A Pentium or PII - so I'll assume you're not currently running XP. Simple if the software manufacturer supports migrating to a newer operating system. 

Moving data like "word documents", photos, etc. is a simple task.

Your first order of business is to find out exactly what hardware and operating system you're currently running - who made the "inventory/scheduling" software - get in touch with them - determine what is required to move the software to a newer system. You can pay a decent technician to do all this for you - about $90 per hour regardless of outcome.


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

Good advice, OM.


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## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

Thanks guys. She's off to find her computer now equipped with your advice.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

When you say a computer case about 1/3 the size of a normal case, are you asking about a gaming cube?

http://www.directron.com/vf1000sna.html

I'm asking because slim horizontal cases are also making a comeback.


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## Teresa S. (Mar 2, 2006)

I have an hp mini desktop....HORRIBLE to upgrade! my two cents...


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i agree with teresa. you are buying a ball and chain. they are proprietary. if you need to replace parts or upgrade, you will spend a lot more on case specific parts.

is there any real need to have the actual tower on the desk? you can get extension cables for nearly everything or even go wireless. having an lcd vs. a crt monitor is a big space saver as well.


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

Not ALL of them are proprietary; at the worst, the current ones just meant that you might need 'small profile' cards. Really nothing different than regular cards, except for the metal bracket's shorter.

We've got some small profile Dells and Gateways here, and while we've OCCASIONALLY had some problems, it's nothing that ordering a part won't fix.

Besides, let's be realistic...how often are these going to be upgraded? Ordering a part here and there isn't exactly a 'ball and chain.'


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

how about the power supplies? can you use one off the shelf?

not to be argumentative,and to clarify my "ball and chain" statement, that doesn't refer to a product that is always dragging you down, it means you are tied to proprietary supplier. i just don't see the practicality of going proprietary, especially using a small form factor system, unless you want the service and software of the proprietary supplier. why pay 40%+ more for gateway or dell parts when you can buy standard hardware from a wholesale shop online, or even at a retail store? i am not saying smaller cards etc. are hard to find from a place like tigerdirect or zipzoomfly, or even walmart or an office shop, i honestly don't know. i do know they carry standard gear. if you can simply go wireless or use extension cables or a usb hub, why bother to limit your choices when it comes to hardware replacement?


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

What I've never understood is how many business folks really seem to like that mid or full-size tower (5 open bays and one CD-Rom). Business folks love to place that huge box under the desk right beside their foot - so they can kick it each time they sit down. When they have to connect their thumb drive, you see them down on the floor military style, right at eye level with the exact spot they've been kicking. If they forget to remove the thumb drive, you can be sure they'll give that a good boot as well the next time they sit down. Those little "flip-up" doors which cover the lower front USB ports - those will last - about a minute until they're sent across the office like a field-goal attempt from the 50 yard line.

I once delivered a very slick and small all black IBM convertible (can be oriented desktop or standup), which I installed desktop style beneath the CRT monitor - a huge improvement in convenience/ergonomics for the worker. The office worker took one look at it and called it "ghetto" and asked why it wasn't a new model like the "big ones". 

I should place an ad in the yellow pages - "Kickin Business Computers for Sale - Big Ones".

The point of my story - no point.


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## Teresa S. (Mar 2, 2006)

HAHA! lol thanks for the laugh! (your post is true!)


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

why not just have a USB hub sitting on the desk?


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## Teresa S. (Mar 2, 2006)

MELOC said:


> why not just have a USB hub sitting on the desk?


ditto that~!


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

MELOC said:


> how about the power supplies? can you use one off the shelf?


Depends upon where that 'shelf' is.  I'm not arguing that there aren't proprietary parts out there. What I AM saying is that, with overnight shipping, and the internet, there's virtually NO computer that you can't find a part for.



> not to be argumentative,and to clarify my "ball and chain" statement, that doesn't refer to a product that is always dragging you down, it means you are tied to proprietary supplier. i just don't see the practicality of going proprietary, especially using a small form factor system, unless you want the service and software of the proprietary supplier. why pay 40%+ more for gateway or dell parts when you can buy standard hardware from a wholesale shop online, or even at a retail store?


Thing is, it's not only the manufacturer that sells the stuff. For instance, Dell (probably THE biggest manufacturer of computers there is) makes proprietary motherboard configurations, as well as power supplies. However, I have to pick which website to buy the parts from, as there are *SO MANY* websites selling their stuff (and for loads less than Dell).

I'm not saying you're wrong about the proprietary parts; I'm just saying that it's like saying "Darn...this part was only made this one year for a Ford truck." Yes, it's proprietary, but Ford trucks are sort of #1, and darn near EVERYONE will stock their parts, or can order them, or at least fabricate them.

Besides, it comes down to how often you will fix parts. If you bought a computer from the company, they'll either stock the part or redirect you to a source where you can buy it. I remember ONE time in the last 4 years that I couldn't find a part for a customer, but the computer was like 8 years old, they would NOT upgrade, it was a defunct company that used extremely proprietary parts, etc.



> why bother to limit your choices when it comes to hardware replacement?


Because if it's from a big-name, like Dell/HP/Compaq/Gateway, it's not exactly 'limiting' if you can buy their parts on loads of websites.


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## Teresa S. (Mar 2, 2006)

hehehe


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## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

Update - she bought the HP Pavilion Slimline - $400 bucks at Walmart. AMD 3500 Sempron processor, 200 gig HD, 512 MB memory, Windows Vista, etc.. She already has her flat panel monitor. Basically I doubt she'll ever need to upgrade, since all she runs is a couple of basic programs including her beauty salon software. She doesn't even have the internet up there - her employees would never get anything done if she did, and no telling what would be downloaded on it. No games, etc.. Her main thing is reliability and saving space, since her front desk area is so tiny and cramped. Her old PC is on the floor and I know the dust and being kicked around is hard on it. She is transferring everything over Mon. morning when they are closed, so we'll see. 

It IS a tiny little thing, and most PC sites gave it pretty solid reviews.


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## Teresa S. (Mar 2, 2006)

ouch!..windows vista and 512mb ram...THAT is NOT good to hear....


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

I dont see an issue with the small form factor SFF or the cube units. Like most "normal size ATX boxes the motherboard has everyone on it. There is little need to add any extra cards and now a days most add on's are being done with USB. The floppy,cd and hard disk are standard, It might be a laptop cdrom, but its standards non the less. FEW peoiple actually upgrade there PC since there is little to upgrade on them. Memory maybe but thats standard on the SFF units. DOnt know about you but when was the last time you actually replaced a power supply. Heck even at work I have over 3000 desk tops and power supplies on the small form factors are the least of my issue. SInce the boxes are small a purpose buit the PS is sized for whats in them. Most power supply failures are a result of a power spike (you should be on a UPS) or overloading the supply. You CANT do that in a SFF.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Also the drives themselves are getting smaller. Remember not too many years ago the drives were 5-1/4 inch? and I am sure their is a few people out here yet still running those. and them they went to 3-1/4 and some now are 3 inch with newer still are going to be 2-7/8 and Still the Memory is getting more and more. Up to One Terabyte~!


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## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

Teresa S. said:


> ouch!..windows vista and 512mb ram...THAT is NOT good to hear....


Please explain. Our local computer geek/comp. store owner and my PC geek/programmer son (who was head of the local chain of Comp USA's PC repair division when he was 19) said it should be just fine for her use.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Teresa S. said:


> ouch!..windows vista and 512mb ram...THAT is NOT good to hear....


 Ah yes but remember that is the very very Minimum for Vista to run on. It would be "happier" to run with at *Least One Gig of Ram*~!
Heck just go to Best Buy and look what is out there now and what the Min. it is for things to run on~!!! I wanted to see about Dazzle, Something that Plugs into USB and has Video In to allow a person to put video on the computer from say a VCR, Camera, etc. With the Exception of one real Cheap one, ALL were 512 Minimum Ram to operate~!! One Gig of RAM is now is the Minimum a person should even Think about having in their machines~!~
Also Vista wants to have a High End Video Card~! There is a Program on the Windows Web Site for people to download and run and it goes around your computer and tells you what you have that will, or will not run with Vista~!


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## Teresa S. (Mar 2, 2006)

SteveD(TX) said:


> Please explain. Our local computer geek/comp. store owner and my PC geek/programmer son (who was head of the local chain of Comp USA's PC repair division when he was 19) said it should be just fine for her use.


512mb is the bare minimum for vista. What version of windows vista is it? If you are going to have beauty shop programs (usually memory hog professional versions),a good virus program, and then IF you have internet on it...that system is probably going to lock up! :Bawling: It MAY work fine.....I hope it all works good for her~!  If it doesn't work and locks up freuently, memory upgrades for HP machines are very cheap~! (especially if you get used memory)  I hope it works well for her~!  :angel:


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## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

Teresa S. said:


> 512mb is the bare minimum for vista. What version of windows vista is it? If you are going to have beauty shop programs (usually memory hog professional versions),a good virus program, and then IF you have internet on it...that system is probably going to lock up! :Bawling: It MAY work fine.....I hope it all works good for her~!  If it doesn't work and locks up freuently, memory upgrades for HP machines are very cheap~! (especially if you get used memory)  I hope it works well for her~!  :angel:


Nearly every major manufacturer is offering Vista Home Basic (what hers came with) with their low-end computers that have 512 mb. MY P-4 (2 years old) only has 256 mb. and I run everything in the world on it running XP. She doesn't have internet on this computer and probably never will. Her current computer has only 128 mb. memory and it has done fine with her professional beauty shop program for 3 years. This is not a computer that will run games or be subject to downloads from the net, but she will probably run MS Office.

I just don't know if a memory upgrade for the small HP Pavilion will be cheap?


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

SteveD(TX) said:


> Please explain. Our local computer geek/comp. store owner and my PC geek/programmer son (who was head of the local chain of Comp USA's PC repair division when he was 19) said it should be just fine for her use.


Good example of why you dont use compUSA because they have no experience and doesnt know what he is talking about. Yes vista will run in 512, but assuming you want to run something other than the OS you will need more memory to make the system responsive.
From the Microsoft site. the home version minimum, 1ghz cput, 512mb ram, 15gb free disk space,32mb of video ram and DVD. For the premium or business versions 1ghz, 1gb, 15gb, 256mb video and DVD

remember these are the absolute minimum for the OS only


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## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

Gary in ohio said:


> Good example of why you dont use compUSA because they have no experience and doesnt know what he is talking about. Yes vista will run in 512, but assuming you want to run something other than the OS you will need more memory to make the system responsive.
> From the Microsoft site. the home version minimum, 1ghz cput, 512mb ram, 15gb free disk space,32mb of video ram and DVD. For the premium or business versions 1ghz, 1gb, 15gb, 256mb video and DVD
> 
> remember these are the absolute minimum for the OS only


Well, that was 8 or 9 years ago. Now he is a computer analyst for a large dept. store chain. He had every MS Certification you could get back then. I trust him completely since he does this stuff for a living so knowing what he is talking about is not an issue.

Are you saying that the low-end computers are incapable of effectively running anything but their OS when they have 512 mb. memory?


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

If the PC is mainly going to be used for just email, some basic business apps, etc., it should be alright. If she plans on using several (more than 3) applications @ one time, it will slow it down; but upgrading memory should be easy.


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## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

I have in the last hour spoken to technical reps for both HP, and Windows. Both have assured me that 512 mb. will have PLENTY to run what she wants to run. Advanced graphics and more sophisticated software programs or an OS upgrade might bog the system down a bit, but there should be absolutely no problems with MS office and other software she has, etc. Their only concern, is the compatibility of the Windows Vista Home Basic with Leprechaun, the beauty shop software. Will find out Monday morning about that.

Thanks for all the help.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

SteveD(TX) said:


> He had every MS Certification you could get back then.
> Still doesnt give me any confidence. Those papers are worthless if you cant back them with real world experiences. IN fact some of the materials you learn are just plain wrong when you get to the real world.





> Are you saying that the low-end computers are incapable of effectively running anything but their OS when they have 512 mb. memory?


Not incapable, just functionally very slow. Unless your going to live entirely in VISTA world and not install any 3rd party software you will be ok but I believe this was about a business needing a computer, Toss on ANY business application and I am betting you will need at least 1gb if not more.

On a side note the original issue was about a new machine and "she doesn't want to take any chances or be down for more than a few hours (hopefully in the evening). I" it sounds like your looking at a bottom end machine for a top end requirement. A single hardware failure will result in at least 1 day of outage even with the best warrantee. Any business should have the ability to run without the computer. You made no mention of a backup devices for your system. If you want to properly configure a system then build one to meet your needs, not build one that fits a price point.


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

A bit of a "warning" when it comes to memory, and how manufacturers may advertise, eg :

- 512mb system memory
- up to 128mb video memory << this "up to" is an indication of "onboard video"

The above looks good, until you realize that the 128mb of video memory is actually taken from the 512mb of system memory - which may leave you with only 384mb for the operating system and other applications. This only applies if your system has "onboard video" - which is what many of the "entry level" system have.

I'm currently sitting at an XP system with 768mb memory, but only 640mb is available for the operating system - the remaining 128mb is used by the onboard video.

I don't know how Vista handles onboard video and how much of the video memory is available for other uses - perhaps Vista is better than XP in that department.


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## chuckhole (Mar 2, 2006)

Steve,
I also support a large number of computers so I get to hear lots of comments from our users. The most common requests from them are for more memory and UPS's. The memory is a cost effective upgrade over anything else. And the UPS backup will save you when the power goes out at the worst time.

I think that the Small Form Factors (little boxes) are a great choice even if you have the room for a bigger box.


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