# weak kids, vitamin B shots?



## spamanon (Feb 9, 2009)

I was advised that a weak kid could benefit from vitamin B shots. I have three kids that are all fairly weak. They were born last night and only one is walking. The other two can crawl on their front elbows towards their mother, but their back legs really don't work very well yet.

Is giving such young kids vitamin B complex shots safe? The bottle is marked in vol/ 100 lbs! How could I even measure such a small amount? Thanks.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

you might need to give 1/4 to 1/2 cc bo-se and a vit-e capsule squished in their little mouth. 
vitamin b is not a lot of help for week newborns.
did they had their colostrum?


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## spamanon (Feb 9, 2009)

Some of them have had their colostrum. One has not. I don't have those other vitamins on hand. Thanks.


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## jBlaze (Dec 26, 2007)

They must have teh colustrum. 
The BoSe is either a shot or a gel. I think the gel is marketed for horses.
The shot I think you give 1/2 cc. It is a must in selenuim deficient areas. Weak hind legs are a classic of selenium deficiency, but check to be sure for your area. (any breeder, cattle or hoses in your area should know if you need this or not.)

I grew up in an area where kids die with in a day with a shot of BoSe.


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## spamanon (Feb 9, 2009)

We have been giving the does sweet lix and a salt block, so I would be surprised if there was a deficiency. Although a large percentage of our triplets this year have weak back legs.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

i guess you will be in for a suprise  
what you are seeing is very typical for selenium deficiency. you will get bo-se from your vet.
where are you located?
you need to give the one that has not had colostrum or just put it down as it will be hard to raise without having had colostrum.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Do a search on white muscle disease and goats/sheep. By having out both a sweet lix block and a salt block you are actually diluting everything your goats need in th mineral block because they only eat the mineral for sodium cravings. Get the salt block out of there and make sure you Sweet Lix is indeed a mineral block and not a protein block with urea in it. Might want to switch to a loose mineral the next time you need a new mineral. Ton's of info on here on minerals, and pre kidding shots to improve your colostrum and your kids as a whole. Your also dealing with huge copper defficency problems being in the pacific northwest that you also can't deal with by just using a mineral block. The information on saanendoah.com was done on goats in your areas. Vicki


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## spamanon (Feb 9, 2009)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> Do a search on white muscle disease and goats/sheep. By having out both a sweet lix block and a salt block you are actually diluting everything your goats need in th mineral block because they only eat the mineral for sodium cravings. Get the salt block out of there and make sure you Sweet Lix is indeed a mineral block and not a protein block with urea in it. Might want to switch to a loose mineral the next time you need a new mineral. Ton's of info on here on minerals, and pre kidding shots to improve your colostrum and your kids as a whole. Your also dealing with huge copper defficency problems being in the pacific northwest that you also can't deal with by just using a mineral block. The information on saanendoah.com was done on goats in your areas. Vicki



Thanks, Vicki, and others. The sweet lix is loose, not a block: it is Meat Maker 16:8. We only give sweet lix once a week mixed in with some grain. The salt block was chosen because it has copper in it (our vet recommended a specific kind for our area: Eastern Idaho) 
One thing that is puzzling to me. If our goats are deficient, they must only be mildly so. Because we have one doe that kidded only a little buck, and he was up and running around like a champ in 15 minutes. It is only the triplets that have been weak legged, and not all of them. Out of 3 batches of triplets, 1 each survived out of the first two batches, but are doing great now. In the third batch, they are all walking around today after being very weak legged all last night. So I guess I am puzzled as to why we lost 4 of the triplets. 

Thanks for your input.


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

We also feed SweetLix minerals but it is free choice. They really go through it the last couple months of pregnancy. 

Once a week in their grain really isnt enough. 

All kids get their BoSe at birth whether they need it or not. The first few years there were a few with slightly weak hind legs.
After learning that does should get their BoSe a few weeks before kidding the kids were scrambling to their feet before the dams could get them all dried off. They were much more vigorous than past crops. Hit the ground runnin as they say.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

If our goats are deficient, they must only be mildly so................................................................................................................So I guess I am puzzled as to why we lost 4 of the triplets.
....................

I would call that a sad kidding season. You loose kids to white muscle disease and nutritional muscular distrophy because your management is inadequate. Any goat can have a single kid standing on her head. Even without mineral supplementation one kid and milking enough for one kid is easy. Add your triplets and there wasn't enough of anything to go around for her and all three kids. A kid born who is weak also has other muscle weakness...the tongue is a muscle as is their heart. Sudden death is common. So is kids who won't nurse so they fail to thrive. So is not cleaning, placentas handing on longer than normal.

Rethink how you are doing things. Vicki


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

spamanon said:


> One thing that is puzzling to me. If our goats are deficient, they must only be mildly so. Because we have one doe that kidded only a little buck, and he was up and running around like a champ in 15 minutes. It is only the triplets that have been weak legged, and not all of them. Out of 3 batches of triplets, 1 each survived out of the first two batches, but are doing great now. In the third batch, they are all walking around today after being very weak legged all last night. So I guess I am puzzled as to why we lost 4 of the triplets.


By this paragraph, you have proven that your goats are deficient and your management must change if these losses are to be changed in coming kidding seasons.

As others have said, give the loose mineral free-choice keeping it out 24/7. Take away the salt block, it will inhibit the herd from taking in adequate loose minerals. Consider copper bolusing. Start using Bo-Se pre-breeding and pre-kidding. Step back and look at your nutrition again. It may be all these things or just one thing. Just one missing link can mess up the whole kidding season.


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## spamanon (Feb 9, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the advice/scoldings. 
I admit it is a poor kidding season, that is why I came looking for help. 

So I think it all boils down to this (please correct me where I am wrong):

Salt blocks are a scam: Don't buy them! Use loose sweetlix only, free choice, all year, 24/7. (The sweetlix we buy, Meatmaker, has copper in it.)

Give Bo-Se shots a month before kidding, and to newborn kids regardless of whether or not they need them. 

Thanks.


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## jBlaze (Dec 26, 2007)

That's pretty much my opinion.
Here I can get the BoSe at the feed store.
I sure hope things go better for you!
J.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Yes, salt blocks are pretty much a scam. Loose minerals kept out 24/7 are the only way to go.
Even with the copper in your minerals, you may need to bolus(I do), so keep an open mind about that.
I always use the Bo-Se pre-breeding and pre-kidding. I do not need to use it on my newborns but with the deficiencies you have described, you may need to do so on top of the twice a year to the does.
I truly wasn't meaning to scold, just to point you in the right direction. Good luck!!


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## DQ (Aug 4, 2006)

spamanon said:


> So I think it all boils down to this (please correct me where I am wrong):
> 
> Salt blocks are a scam: Don't buy them! Use loose sweetlix only, free choice, all year, 24/7. (The sweetlix we buy, Meatmaker, has copper in it.)
> 
> ...


yep. and don't think of it as giving them the bo-se shots "whether or not they need them" if you have several deficient you can bet they _all_ are to some extent and for a plethora of reasons some show it more than others. 

I'm all for not using stuff unless needed but it sounds as if you likely have legit symptoms of a deficiency and supplementing is appropriate.


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## spamanon (Feb 9, 2009)

I didn't mean the scolding comment in a sarcastic way, I am glad for all everyone's help, truly. We want to get on the right track for our goats sake at least!

I went to the only place that stocks sweetlix around here, and found they don't carry it anymore. They guy said that all the goat ranchers around here started buying vitalix buckets instead. Reading the label, it is clear that there isn't as much copper or selenium in the vitalix as there was in the sweetlix. 

Cu 1750 ppm vs. 400 ppm
Se 50 ppm vs. 7 ppm

The good news is there is no urea in the vitalix. I was also told that Bo-Se is vet only around here, so that will have to wait till Monday. 
I can go get some vitamin E/Se gel though.

So now my questions are: 

Is the vitalix enough as a replacement for sweetlix?
Is the gel good enough for the newborn kids/does. We have one doe left to kid, probably within 2 weeks. Can she get the gel?


Thanks.


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## dragonchick (Oct 10, 2007)

I would use a good cattle mineral instead of those wimpy buckets. Thats not enough to supply what a goat needs, unless you live in an area where the soil supplies everything in the right quanities.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Yes Vitalix is a wonderful product, but know it's instead of feeding range cubes for cattle. Alot of boer goat folks use this, instead of improving their hay. It's a sticky sweet molassas tub filled with grain by products and minerals. Contains excellent probiotics and high quality fermentation products for the rumen....so yes it is a thought. Of course the ppm's of copper and such will be lower than your loose minerals, because it's eaten, not licked like loose minerals that are full of salt to inhibit them eating soo much...you want them eating this protein tub. So the change is up to you. Also think about putting a cattle panel cut to fit around this tub, or putting it on the other side of a board fence so the goats put their head through to eat, otherwide you will have sticky molassas and dirt stuck together goats, who lay and walk in these tubs...then the flies start in the late spring 

Nobody knows if the oral selenium E gels work. It makes no logical sense that they do because we already all feed grain with added selenium and minerals with added selenium...we give it injected to speed into the bloodstream...how can adding even more oral selenium into the rumen be working? And nobody I know has tested oral preperations. We know that giving CMPK and other minerals like this is degraded in the rumen to the point it can only be used profilactically in curing hypocalcemia or milk fever...in a real crisis you have to go injected. Get the bo-se. The gel could work in infant kids because they aren't born ruminanting, they are born as single stomached animals. But even then I would want to be using my bo-se at 1cc per 40 pounds on the kids and not be guessing how much gel to use. Vicki


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

I would not agree with, "Use loose sweetlix only, free choice, all year, 24/7. (The sweetlix we buy, Meatmaker, has copper in it.)"

I do not feed this and instead use a high-quality cattle mineral.


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