# GAO calls for reexamination of the horse slaughter "ban"



## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

GAO: Horses bear brun of ban


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## Oakshire_Farm (Dec 4, 2008)

Groups keep trying to get horse slaughter stopped here in Canada. I sure hope they don't. And I hope for all the horses making horrible trips to either Mexico and Canada, or the ones starving in back yards, they open up the plants in the USA again! 

Banning slaughter does not fix any problems it only creates more  Unfortunatley I think the biggest problem is the TB and AQHA/APHA breeders that are part of the problem. I hate hearing stories from both of theses groups that they produce 25+ foals a year just hoping to get one good one  I heard of a breeder of AQHA that just sent 50 registered horses to slaughter because there was no market for them....... but he has rebred all the mares for next years foal crop


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## homstdr74 (Jul 4, 2011)

In our area there are so many horses that it is not uncommon for a person to go to bed with nine horses in the field, but when they wake up in the morning they have a dozen horses in the field.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I think it's very hard to blame the problem on any single group because each level of the industry seems to have bad apples in their barrel. You have irresponsible breeders, poor quality trainers, bad owners and with the economy the way it is right now, it's just added another dimension and brought a whole new class of breeders, trainers and owners who figure that since horse prices are so low, they're disposable.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Add in also that there are horses that are lame, ill, old and owners that are old, ill and/or in severe financial distress and its really a mess.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Blaming horse breeders and owners distracts from the _real_ villains, Peta, HSUS, et al.


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## Oakshire_Farm (Dec 4, 2008)

I am not sure about the US, but in Canada there are studies that have shown that over 50% of the horses going for slaughter are reg. TB, AQHA/APHA. I am not 100% on all the numbers but they are high for those breeds. I am not blaming any one person or group. It is ashame that any registered stock/ pets end up at slaughter. But the 100% of the problem should be on the people that insist on breeding for no reason. The "Hey, I have a horse and it has a uterus, it MUST reproduce!" I own a stallion...... I have not bred him in 6 years, because there are WAY to many horses in this world, and all the people that have contacted me about breeding have either fugly mares, or they just want to have a foal, but have no plan on what they want to do with it.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I have to disagree, 100% of the problem is NOT people that breed, whether they have a reason or not. There are horses that ought to be put down and there is a place for humane slaughter. There are both breeders and owners that are irresponsible, its not just the breeders. There are hardship circumstances, it is very hard hearted of us to think we ought to blame even so amorphous a group as "irresponsible breeders". 

Yes, there are people that would be better off not breeding, but there are also people that have every expectation of being able to keep their horse, whether they bred it or not, but life circumstances force that to change. The loss of your house and land and job or health could trigger the need to part with your horse under duress, it may have nothing to do with how or who bred it. 

I suspect that TB's are more likely to end up on slaughter because of the racing business - though many of the off the track TB's find homes, some don't and some are unsound or have other reasons they won't find a home. I don't know the answer to this, I know it sucks. 

I am in favor of humane slaughter being allowed and properly regulated. I don't like it, but I see reasons for it.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Oakshire_Farm said:


> I am not sure about the US, but in Canada there are studies that have shown that over 50% of the horses going for slaughter are reg. TB, AQHA/APHA.


So what? Many registered pigs, cows, sheep, goats also go to slaughter. We don't even think about the slaughter of these animals. 

Horses are made of _meat_ and most of the world realizes this. Horses are livestock. If you love your horse and don't want it slaughtered then fine, don't slaughter it, but no one really has any business assigning any guilt on those who have no problem sending this particular variety of livestock to slaughter.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

GrannyCarol said:


> I have to disagree, 100% of the problem is NOT people that breed, whether they have a reason or not. There are horses that ought to be put down and there is a place for humane slaughter. There are both breeders and owners that are irresponsible, its not just the breeders. There are hardship circumstances, it is very hard hearted of us to think we ought to blame even so amorphous a group as "irresponsible breeders".
> 
> Yes, there are people that would be better off not breeding, but there are also people that have every expectation of being able to keep their horse, whether they bred it or not, but life circumstances force that to change. The loss of your house and land and job or health could trigger the need to part with your horse under duress, it may have nothing to do with how or who bred it.
> 
> ...


good post


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Oakshire_Farm said:


> , but in Canada there are studies that have shown that over 50% of the horses going for slaughter are reg. TB, AQHA/APHA.


I know that sound, healthy, sane horses sometimes go for slaughter - and that's a shame. But the breeds you mentioned have a high incidence of soundness problems, lines with nasty temperaments (not worth putting up with after their performance career is over) and break down frequently under work.
A 12 year old warmblood is just getting started. A 12 yo QH or Paint is often acting pretty aged by then, needing hock injections, special diets or are just pasture pets.

I don't think it's coincidence that so many of those breeds are ending up there.


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

tinknal said:


> So what? Many registered pigs, cows, sheep, goats also go to slaughter. We don't even think about the slaughter of these animals.
> 
> Horses are made of _meat_ and most of the world realizes this. Horses are livestock. If you love your horse and don't want it slaughtered then fine, don't slaughter it, but no one really has any business assigning any guilt on those who have no problem sending this particular variety of livestock to slaughter.


YES! This!

Who cares if everyone breeds if the end result is meat. There are many hungry people out there. Also pets need food too.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Around here, if a person does not have a place to bury a horse, and there are lots of restrictions, it costs $500 to have the body buried. Add that to the vet fee, it costs about $1000 to put a horse down. Now what does any rational person think is going to happen?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Oakshire_Farm, if those breeds are accounting for 50% of all breeds sent to slaughter, I'm fairly impressed because I would be very surprised if those very same breeds don't account for 80% of our horse population. 

tinknal, I raised papered cattle for years and that mentality was what led me to burn my membership and registration papers. The bufoons simply could not grasp the idea that you should only paper the best of the best and the rest should enter the food chain. 

One of my neighbors has bull he syndicated for $500,000.00 and it sure doesn't hurt his feelings to tell you that two of his full brothers ended up in his freezer.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

With so many folks unfortunately down on their luck, I don't understand why they turn the horses loose. April to October, our sun temps are up in the hundreds. Dying from dehydration and starvation in the desert isn't pleasant. A bullet would be more kind, but why not feed their family. Costs here to put a horse down are also very high. Vets charge $300 - $400 for the shot. They no longer take care to the carcass, it's up to the owners. The pick up companies charge as much as the vets. I remember when the vets charged $10 and took care of the carcass.

There are some here in the U.S. who raise horses for their freezers. They do their own butchering. Meat is meat. Livestock is livestock. You won't hear much about it tho. 

I'm told there's a place here, think it's Out Of Africa, that will take your horses to feed to their wild ones, lions and such. Think the horse has to be free of any shots.

Fortunately, I've not been in a situation where I'd have to eat my equine. Being a porkaholic, I raise pigs for my freezer. Loveable, petable piggies.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I'm fortunate here as A) I'm able to put down a horse myself if it's necessary and B) the county has a dead animal truck and will pick up and dispose of a dead animal for $25. That is very definitely not the case most other places and I can certainly see why people already in situations where they cannot afford to feed a horse are unable to afford to have it put down. This situation is why you have horses being turned loose to roam/starve ... or end up in someone's pasture or empty trailer.

As far as utilizing a horse for meat, I don't myself, though I would if necessary. My meat of preference is rabbit ... I raise them, butcher them and put them on the table, even if there are a number of people who absolutely cannot conceive of eating that "cute little cuddly, furry bunny!"


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## mountainwmn (Sep 11, 2009)

I'm fairly close to a couple of auctions that have kill pens, and while I've seen maybe 15% TB's, few come with papers, and there are almost no AQHA or APHA registered horses going through. Most are grade, with health or training issues. The registered horses get "rescued" quickly.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

As a trainer, I've dealt with a couple of horses that I've looked in the eye and told them, "If you were mine, I'd have a barbeque and a throw rug."


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## Waiting Falcon (Nov 25, 2010)

ONE reason why the slaughter houses were banned is because of all the vaccinations, etc in horse meat. Whereas there is a very strong law on this about sending livestock to the salebarn with medications in them that is not so with horses. 
And yes I will agre that AR , PETA and ll the rest of that ilk are pushing their own agenda that sounds louder than anyone else. 
I can see what is being said about the racers. Their breeders would not want those colts out in the population with their name on them. All these $xxxxxxx that are found dead..... anyway there are more reasons why horse slaughter was banned. I firmly believe the slaughter houses should be reopened there has to be a use for the end product that would not be harmful for man or beast. They used to be sent to the glue factory.
Life is cruel there is no doubt about it. Cruel things can happen at slaughter houses but it isn't something that lasts for years like starvation and human cruelty to the poor beasts.
Before the slaughter house closed in Missouri years ago, someone saw this beautiful mare in the pen. I had already heard why the mare went..... He went to a lot of trouble getting her and the broken bones he got as a result ...............


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

Vaccinations are not the issue in slaughter. The issue is that horses are generally regulated like pets when it comes to pharmaceuticals, so some of the medications they receive should not end up in the food chain. You will see many horse pharmaceuticals labled "not to be used in horses intended for slaughter."


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

If TPTB would have listened to horse people to start with there never would have been a slaughter ban. :grumble: I can't blame just one factor either- it's a combination of irresponsible breeding, animal rights groups, and the less extreme "do gooders" that caused the ban to be implemented.

It simply needs to be ended. Now.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I don't even know if it really matters who caused the problem, the reality is that the slaughter ban put decent hard working people out of business and caused more suffering than it ever prevented.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Waiting Falcon said:


> ONE reason why the slaughter houses were banned is because of all the vaccinations, etc in horse meat. Whereas there is a very strong law on this about sending livestock to the salebarn with medications in them that is not so with horses.
> .


Since all horse slaughter in this country was for export, and no importing countries saw this as a serious issue, I do not believe that this is true.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

They want to ban butchering rabbits in California. Talk about stupidity.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

I just posted a thread..gues I should have put it here since it is related
Don't know which u tube I watched but it has changed my mind. I have been a forever supporter of horse slaughter. Know most of you will disagree with me but I no longer am a supporter. It is horid what those horses go through.
As for the over abundance of horses. I have advertised that I would take in a horse that needed a home. I put it on here and on craigslist. I have yet to find one..and nooone has yet put one in my barn or trailer.This area must not be as desparate as some of yours area.
I know a slow death of starvation is not the answer. But geeze..that video did make me cry and almost made me vomit


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

LL, careful about videos on youtube. PETA likes to find slaughter houses in third world countries, or the REALLY awfully run ones that, once they get inspected, are so off the mark in health issues, they get shut down for those alone! And then have insiders post videos of horrid things happening.

In some instances, the PETA member even *instigates* those horrid things just SO they can take video.

If, however, it was simply a real video of a common slaughterhouse, then do not watch any videos on how cattle, chicken, or pigs are slaughtered...you will become a vegetarian.

**************************

I have looked and looked and looked, and I can't find any *health* reasons why horses are banned from being inspected as food. There are no medications *routinely* given to horses that are not also given to other animals that enter the food chain. There are no particular cross-species diseases to be particularly aware of. In fact, if it is slaughtered, handled and inspected *exactly* like beef, it is just as safe as beef. 

Comparatively, I have read that it is lower in calories, and a bit leaner than beef, and tastes a little sweeter...like a cross between beef and venison. Also that unlike other livestock, the older the animal is, the more tender the meat will be. It is not a preferred food in many countries because it has a lower feed conversion than meat breeds of cattle, sheep and goats.

The U.S. and the U.K. are the *only* countries than ban the use of horses as food, and, it seems, the only cultures that have created a taboo over it.

My DH talks about his Great Aunt informing everyone about horse meat during the wars in Europe. She said that HER mother (DH's great-great grandmother) would not even use a PAN that had once cooked horsemeat, even though during the war, you could get a horse roast that would feed a large family for the same price as you could get a beef brisket the size of a filet mignon, and, of course, the beef was rationed. However, the stigma was, "Only poor people ate horsemeat."

She said her older sister, though, (DH's great grand) had no inherent problem with horsemeat...so she would always go over to her older sister's house for dinner.

*********************

The stigma of horsemeat only being for the very poor is still alive and well. The U.S.A. and the U.K. have ALWAYS had a prejudice against eating horse, as the animal provided work and transportation.... then in later years, was a social symbol of wealth. Eating horse became viewed as something only desperate people did...much like eating dog or eating cat. These sorts of stigmas have not helped any of those animals in any way.

And LAWS being put into place to force those stigmas on everyone only work in times of wealth. As soon as the economy dives....the animals suffer because people are worrying about how to feed THEMSELVES.

************************************

For myself, if it is an herbavore, I will eat it without batting an eyelash. I don't eat carnivores because, frankly, I don't care for the taste. I do not understand why people put so much time, effort, and resources into worrying about what happens to an animal AFTER it is dead...rather than improving conditioned for it BEFORE it is dead.

*********************************************

Back to Lamoncha Lover. LL, not long ago, I put a post on here about two rescues. They were trying to kill my goats and I simply did not have the facilities to separate them properly at this time to insure the horses could not get to the goats.

I bemoaned this problem in the Goat Forum, also. Two people in the rescue world got on the phone for me. *I* contacted local rescues...I ran an ad on CL.

I even offered to TRADE, if a rescue was full up on horses, for horses that were NOT small stock attackers. That was the only REAL problem one of the horses had, was that she attacked small stock.

I got lots of sympathy. People made contacts for me. The word was put out.

Nothing. Not a bite. NO ONE wanted two free horses.

I finally traded them to the nice Hispanic gentleman down the street for a TB filly. His wife had put her foot down on having too many more horses...but....

I am sure the mare went for BBQ. The filly, well she is in a stall living high on the hog.

The point is, not too many people HAVE understanding neighbors like that. NONE of the rescues had spots open for them, and we only got one call from the ad on craigslist, and she called back an hour later and said her Dad told her she cannot have any more horses. In a lot of areas, and most especially here in Texas, _there is no place for free horses!_

If you had contacted me, wanting these horses, I probably would have even agreed to meet you half way for them. Heck, you live in TN....I'll meet you halfway and trade you...all the horses you want for their weight in horse quality hay. I'll make a MINT on that hay here.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

The thing to remember, LL- in addition to what Caliann said- is that whatever you saw in that video about horse slaughter should be multiplied times 10 for horses going across the border. US agents have NO say over there in how the horses are handled or processed. Add that to the LONG ride in what is usually trailers not approved for that usage..... well, it makes US slaughter plants reopening look pretty ----ed good. 

It's to the point where when people comment on me being for slaughter that I have one of two comments ready. Depending on who is doing the commenting and the tone it's offered it's either:

I'm not for slaughter, i'm for horse welfare. 

or

Oh? I didn't realize you were a vegetarian.

Either way, it starts a conversation I bet they wish they'd never instigated.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

The animal rights groups pick and edit their videos for the worst content.

Watch some videos from Kentucky Fried Cruelty. They'll show broiler house workers jumping on, kicking, and throwing broiler chickens across the barn. Yes they've got video of it happening, but I know people who have broiler houses. If they caught their workers doing this, that person would be GONE. 

I once watched an "undercover" video of a battery egg farm in CA. The "animal lover" shooting the undercover video for PETA was the one shoving the animals in the cage the HARDEST and the one acting the worst. 

They "infiltrate" these agricultural facilities as workers and perform many of the most cruel acts and break protocols and rules just to get the most horrid, tear-jerking video they can.

Watch a video of what daily takes place in a hog plant or cattle plant. It's quick and mechanical.

The videos they have of horse slaughter are typically from Mexico. They are unregulated and typically care much less about animal welfare.

Horse slaughter shouldn't be banned, it should be regulated. That is what animal WELFARE(not rights!) groups do, they regulate agricultural industry to make it more humane. They say you can only put this many chickens in the cage. Where an animal rights group says chickens should have the same rights as people and don't belong in a cage or "belong" to anyone.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

wolffeathers said:


> ...Horse slaughter shouldn't be banned, it should be regulated. ...


Yup! I agree.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

tinknal said:


> Blaming horse breeders and owners distracts from the _real_ villains, Peta, HSUS, et al.


Neither Peta nor HSUS caused the problem of overpopulation of horses in this country.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

farmergirl said:


> Neither Peta nor HSUS caused the problem of overpopulation of horses in this country.


There _was_ no overpopulation of horses in this country before slaughter was banned. 

The ban was a solution in search of a problem and just created a huge mess. Do what you want with _your_ horses. Don't worry about _mine!_


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

I Hate PETA and HSUS
And I am aware of how they play the emotional game. The video was graphic and saddening. I did try to see it as coming from 1 extreme viewpoint. And that they are well aware of how to hit you emotionally.
Maybe the answer is really strict regulations. Seems that many end up in a fate they never deserved.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

lamoncha lover said:


> I Hate PETA and HSUS
> And I am aware of how they play the emotional game. The video was graphic and saddening. I did try to see it as coming from 1 extreme viewpoint. And that they are well aware of how to hit you emotionally.
> Maybe the answer is really strict regulations. Seems that many end up in a fate they never deserved.


We have the regulations, but not the plants. Just remember that horses can be incredibly dangerous, especially in large numbers. The facilities need to be constructed so that human workers are protected. Some things that appear cruel are in fact necessary to protect people.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

lamoncha lover said:


> I Hate PETA and HSUS
> And I am aware of how they play the emotional game. The video was graphic and saddening. I did try to see it as coming from 1 extreme viewpoint. And that they are well aware of how to hit you emotionally.....


You may hate them but their tactic worked on you. Yet another illustration of why Agriculture and its supporters must be vigilent in telling the truth about animal farming.


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

I'm surprised no one in this thread mentioned Pregnant Mare Urine. That is the reason the US Horse Slaughter was banned. PMU producers were sending thousands of baby horses to slaughter, and it caused an outrage. Who wouldn't be outraged at trailer after trailer full of babies going to slaughter plants.

I still get all worked up and angry every time I even think of the PMU breeders. It is sick, sick, sick to force a mare to stand up in a little stall for all of her pregnancy, little water (so the urine is stronger) and only let out to have a baby, love that baby, and then have the baby ripped away again.

Women on Menopause drugs don't even KNOW what the mare goes through, I'm sure, or they would never support the drugs. AND the producers are still in business! Only now thousands of babies going out of the country to be slaughtered. It is by far one of the sickest things I have ever heard of. Instead of stopping the PMU producers, they closed the slaughter. Stupid.


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

Oh I forgot. Most of the babies produced are half Draft. Bigger mares put out way more pee. Good luck adopting out all those babies. People try to, but there are way to many of them, and the boys are HUGE most of the time.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Cindy in KY said:


> Oh I forgot. Most of the babies produced are half Draft. Bigger mares put out way more pee. Good luck adopting out all those babies. People try to, but there are way to many of them, and the boys are HUGE most of the time.


Cindy, that is pretty much 'old information' ... true several years ago but not currently. The most recent information I could find (2010) seems to show there are only about 22 farms now operating in Canada (as opposed to over 400 some 10 years ago) and those farms have an average of 40 mares each. The drug companies that produce the hormones are relying more and more on chemical processed hormones and have cut the contracts on PMU farms back drastically. Also, slaughter is still legal in Canada, so their numbers certainly don't impact the situation in the U.S. There were a few PMU farms in ND that I know of but not the numbers that there were in Canada and I don't know if any of those farms are still operating or not or if there are any PMU farms operating anywhere else in the U.S. With the 60% reduction in contracts from the drug companies, I suspect that the majority of this market is gone everywhere.

This is a link to the 2010 article from one of the Canadian Ag publications.

http://www.agcanada.com/Article.aspx?ID=22848


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Cindy in KY said:


> I'm surprised no one in this thread mentioned Pregnant Mare Urine. That is the reason the US Horse Slaughter was banned. PMU producers were sending thousands of baby horses to slaughter, and it caused an outrage. Who wouldn't be outraged at trailer after trailer full of babies going to slaughter plants.
> 
> I still get all worked up and angry every time I even think of the PMU breeders. It is sick, sick, sick to force a mare to stand up in a little stall for all of her pregnancy, little water (so the urine is stronger) and only let out to have a baby, love that baby, and then have the baby ripped away again.
> 
> Women on Menopause drugs don't even KNOW what the mare goes through, I'm sure, or they would never support the drugs. AND the producers are still in business! Only now thousands of babies going out of the country to be slaughtered. It is by far one of the sickest things I have ever heard of. Instead of stopping the PMU producers, they closed the slaughter. Stupid.


Mares are not forced to stand in a little stall for 11 months - because the hormone they use is only produced for a portion (3-4 months, I think?) of the pregnancy.

I remember reading an article about PMU farms in Western Horseman in the mid 90s, I believe, and the farm featured in the article showed large stalls with automatic waterers (no withholding of water) and the mares were able to lie down quite comfortably in the bedding.

This particular PMU farm raised registered Belgians with several mares taking time off from the PMU operation to be shown on the Belgian show circuit. They weren't producing "throw-away" foals, they were breeding good show stock.

Besides, like SFM said, PMU farms have pretty much gone by the wayside, as synthetic hormones have replaced pregnant mare urine.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2011)

SquashNut said:


> They want to ban butchering rabbits in California. Talk about stupidity.


Good grief.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

Oakshire_Farm said:


> I am not sure about the US, but in Canada there are studies that have shown that over 50% of the horses going for slaughter are reg. TB, AQHA/APHA. .


but when you figure those are the #1,2, and 3 breeds in the country..it makes sense..also, how manyhorses are labeled "QH" or "paint" by it's looks?

Horses have been delegated to "pet status" by the closing of the plants..do we have a cattle overpopulation problem? sheeep? pig? nope..just dog, cat and horse....and unfortunantly, less people are willing to take on a horse then a dog or a cat.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

The PMU industry is becoming smaller, due to a synthetic form of the drug and the realization the estrogen replacement carries a good bit of hardcore risks with it. We just recently got a lecture on it at school. People used to sing the praises of it relieving menopause symptoms and reducing the risk of osteoporosis, but now many people realize that the risks may outweigh the benefits.

Below is a quote from a hormone therapy(estrogen replacement therapy) site:

Seven more cases of heart disease than women taking a placebo
Eight more cases of breast cancer than women taking a placebo
Eight more cases of stroke than women taking a placebo
Eighteen more cases of blood clots than women taking a placebo

So I think the demand for premarin and estrogen replacement overall is shrinking.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Oakshire_Farm said:


> I am not sure about the US, but in Canada there are studies that have shown that over 50% of the horses going for slaughter are reg. TB, AQHA/APHA.


I would venture to guess that the percentages are actually much higher. At least in my part of the country they are - I'd say the horses sent through auction are probably 80-90% QH and/or Paint horses. The AQHA still registers about 115,000 horses every year and in the 90s they were registering 150,000 a year with APHA horses being not far behind them. The JC only registers about 30,000 Thoroughbred horses every year, and their numbers have been pretty steady throughout the past several years. Most of the other "top 10" breeds in America (Arabs, Morgans, Saddlebreds, etc) are now registering less than 10,000 foals a year. That's a big difference.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Think about it. The skinny horses and foals were NOT the ones going to slaughter. Who in their right mind would waste time slaughtering something that won't return the amount of meat a healthy adult horse would? 

LL- Lots of things end up in 'fates they don't deserve.' from someone's standpoint, anyway. Who is to say what animal 'deserves' to be slaughtered and what doesn't? None of the horses that are starving to death EVERY SECOND of the day deserved to die that slow, horrid death. But they do, because the slaughter plants that offered a quick, relatively painless death are closed.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

Cindy in KY said:


> I'm surprised no one in this thread mentioned Pregnant Mare Urine. That is the reason the US Horse Slaughter was banned. PMU producers were sending thousands of baby horses to slaughter, and it caused an outrage. Who wouldn't be outraged at trailer after trailer full of babies going to slaughter plants.
> 
> AND the producers are still in business! Only now thousands of babies going out of the country to be slaughtered.
> 
> Well where are these babies as I will give several a great home.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

lamoncha lover said:


> Cindy in KY said:
> 
> 
> > I'm surprised no one in this thread mentioned Pregnant Mare Urine. That is the reason the US Horse Slaughter was banned. PMU producers were sending thousands of baby horses to slaughter, and it caused an outrage. Who wouldn't be outraged at trailer after trailer full of babies going to slaughter plants.
> ...


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

PMU farms have contacts to rescues and they are rescued pretty quickly. The problem is that it costs so much to get them to the USA that the adoption fee is higher then anyone wants to pay for a bottle baby. I see them offered on craigslist quite a bit. If there are only 1000 foals a year I suspect they are all rescued as opposed to slaughtered....


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

The important thing to remember is that ending slaughter has no affect on PMU production.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

lasergrl said:


> PMU farms have contacts to rescues and they are rescued pretty quickly. The problem is that it costs so much to get them to the USA that the adoption fee is higher then anyone wants to pay for a bottle baby. I see them offered on craigslist quite a bit. If there are only 1000 foals a year I suspect they are all rescued as opposed to slaughtered....


I've had two PMU babies and both were bought from the farms in Canada...not rescued. I don't know what they've been doing in the past few years but when I got mine they had been breeding much nicer horses so they had no problem selling them. Nor were they bottle babies. They were weaned off their mothers at a normal age and bought by a woman I know in Washington. No particularly high costs in getting them over the border. I bought mine for about $800 each, I think. They were beautiful horses. Draft/Thoroughbred crosses.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

I know someone who will buy _any_ 2 to 5 year old draft cross gelding if the price is right. He trains police horses.


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

Here is a rescue charging $800 and these are not even bottle foals, like some are.
http://www.springhillrescue.com/pmu.shtml


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

last entry I could find for PMU foals was like 2008...or am I losing a link?


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

I understand the PMU industry has taken a big decline, which can only be good. But at the height, it was the factor that started the ball rolling to close the US Slaughter plants. So many little ones were going to slaughter.....it was horrid. And I watched and read, and yes, closing the plants only sent the foals and horses to Mexico or Canada.

When big money companies control the drugs AND control the slaughter, it's impossible to fight. Stupid drug idea that had horrid consequences. Not all the farms were producing nice babies easy to sell or place. Still, at 1000 now a year at least, hopefully all of those are adopted. I have no problem with people sending mean, crippled or old horses, but healthy babies, that is so bad. They were an unwanted by-product. It gave the whole slaughter industry here an very ugly picture and they were closed.

If you were raising horses for meat, you would grow them out, as do cattle, hog and sheep producers.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Cindy in KY said:


> If you were raising horses for meat, you would grow them out, as do cattle, hog and sheep producers.


Like dairy bull calves or layer cockerels?


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

Dairy bull calves are raised up to market weight here. Why would someone send a baby calf to slaughter?

SFM- I can't find all the years numbers, but 2000/2001 numbers were 50 to 60 thousand a year PMU foals going to slaughter.


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

June 19, 2011

quote from PDF..

"Pfizer Pharmaceuticals sponsoring a teleconference on solutions to the "unwanted horse" problem is beyond brazen. Pfizer owns Wythe Pharmaceuticals, the producer of a line of hormone replacement therapy drugs made from pregnant mare urine and is one of the largest producers of excess, poorly bred and untrained foals in North America.

Every year, Wythe contracts farms to breed tens of thousands of mares so that their urine can be collected to make the drugs. Not only does this process create thousands of excess foals, the drug was found to have devastating health effects on women during a 2002 study by the National Institutes of Health. The company responded by diluting the drug and renaming it."

Unwanted Horse Producer

.....it doesn't sound like it has gone by the wayside.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Another great effect to the horses are not livestock, TSC just started charging tax on horse feed here because they are a luxury pet not livestock...

When you go to an auction and you get horses thrown into your trailer because there is no market for them and no outlet for the byproducts something has grossly been overlooked by several different levels both in government and the private sector. Its just not a single problem that can be put on one group of folks.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Cindy in KY said:


> Dairy bull calves are raised up to market weight here. Why would someone send a baby calf to slaughter?
> 
> .


They are now because there is a strong market for them. In times past they often had so little value that farmers just knocked them in the head with a hammer. The point is, that like cockerel chicks of layer breeds (which get thrown alive into a grinder) they are a byproduct, just like PMU foals.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2011)

tinknal said:


> Like dairy bull calves or layer cockerels?


Layer cockerals are not raised commercially, they are destroyed at hatch.

Dairy bull calves here are raised along with the beeves and go to market with them.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Cindy in KY said:


> June 19, 2011
> 
> quote from PDF..
> 
> ...


Unsubstantiated claims by a biased website.

Yeah, we'll go with that.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Cindy in KY said:


> SFM- I can't find all the years numbers, but 2000/2001 numbers were 50 to 60 thousand a year PMU foals going to slaughter.


Cindy, I don't know if those numbers are correct for those years or not. I was looking for the latest numbers I could find and as I posted above, the drug company contracts have been reduced by 60% and the latest figures (as of *2010*) appear to indicate that only 26 farms, in two Canadian provinces are still in production and as far as I can discover, none in the U.S.

This is a link to the 2010 article from one of the Canadian Ag publications.
http://www.agcanada.com/Article.aspx?ID=22848

I did go to the "Unwanted Horse" link in your prior post and although the page was dated 2011 I could not find any information indicating when the information that was posted in that link was actually written. I 'm sure it was posted on that page in 2011 but I doubt the information was gathered from 2011 data. It does not seem reasonable that data based on the numbers reported to the Canadian Ag Dept. by the farmers who actually hold those contracts with Pfizer would be inaccurate to that extent. Your numbers may be accurate for the time the PMU contracts were at their highest levels. I suspect that the numbers published by the Canadian Ag Dept. is more likely to be the more accurate on current numbers. 

And I will *again* state, since you seem to be ignoring the information ... the majority of these PMU farms have always been in Canada ... most of the foals that did go to slaughter went to Canadian auctions and slaughter plants, they were NOT exported to U.S. slaughter plants. Consequently, those foals could NOT have had an impact on the U.S. auction/ slaughter situation because they were never in the U.S. system.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

SFM in KY said:


> And I will *again* state, since you seem to be ignoring the information ... the majority of these PMU farms have always been in Canada ... most of the foals that did go to slaughter went to Canadian auctions and slaughter plants, they were NOT exported to U.S. slaughter plants. Consequently, those foals could NOT have had an impact on the U.S. auction/ slaughter situation because they were never in the U.S. system.



I once volunteered at Pegasus Foundation in CA. It was a rescue farm that rescued ex-racers and PMU foals. The PMU foals were shipped down from Canada. The foals were usually beautiful half drafts, that were at a great weight and fully weaned. I remember that at the height of PMU criticism, they would paint a picture of a mare foaling, the foal being taken away and the mare going right back to her stall. 

Even that farm with the 2010 rescues, stated the foals are weaned on their mothers and not bottle babies. A healthy looking bunch of foals, even with the picture being directly at the auction site.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

When the slaughter plants were open here in the U.S. I did not hear of PMU foals from either the U.S. or Canada going through the auctions and going to slaughter. I don't know what the circumstances were in Canada, at the Canadian auctions/ slaughter plants but I don't know of any credible information that indicated significant numbers of PMU foals were going to slaughter.

I do think during the height of the PR efforts to put a stop to the PMU farm systems, many of the people involved would see any obviously draft or part draft foals going through the auctions and label them as PMU foals. However, I suspect that they were not from PMU farms in Canada (or the U.S. for that matter).

During this time I read posts on various boards from people who had adopted PMU foals and they were almost all comfortable with the levels of health/nutrition/handling of the foals. Also, when the contracts were cut back so seriously, many of the mares were being sold off and were coming down as rescues as well. For the most part, again, very few serious complaints about the condition of these mares.


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## fetch33 (Jan 15, 2010)

mountainwmn said:


> I'm fairly close to a couple of auctions that have kill pens, and while I've seen maybe 15% TB's, few come with papers, and there are almost no AQHA or APHA registered horses going through. Most are grade, with health or training issues. The registered horses get "rescued" quickly.


I know in the American Saddlebred industry, it is common to wait to register stock to see if it measures up. If not, many breeders don't have any qualms about calling the man with the truck. That stock is purebred but unregistered. It is estimated that only 5% of Saddlebreds measure up to the showring standard. My sister's Grand Prix Saddlebred, Harry Callahan, was one such throw-away. He failed saddle seat camp and was lucky a dressage person came along when she did or he would have been on a truck too.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Here is my daughter on a PMU baby. His owner paid $7000 for him as a 4 year old (he was broke and already jumping prelim level cross-country **stupid, I know). Clyde/TB cross


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

My PMU gelding, Obie out with his mama:


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

PMU filly Lucy at 3 ( I think):










And Obie at the same age:











Lucy is now owned by a teenager in Washington and competes on the high school equestrian team in eventing.
Obie is a hunt horse in Virginia (bought by a MFH who was friends with a former HTer.)


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Some nice looking horses. I know there was a grown PMU foal at Pegasus named Rosey. Gorgeous roan draft mare. I think she ended up being used for lesson(vaulting?). 

Lisa those are some beautiful horses. I really like how a lot of the draft crosses come out.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I knew people in MT who had relatives in Canada and they knew some of the PMU people. They told me that during the time the PMU contracts were lucrative and a lot of mares were being bred, the Canadian government was actively encouraging the PMU breeders to upgrade the draft mares they were keeping as well as buying "good" light stallions to cross on them in the attempt to make the foals more marketable and thus less likely to end up as 'throwaway' foals that were simply a byproduct of the PMU business.


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## eggzackly (Apr 14, 2011)

There was an article in Paint Horse Journal years ago about a PMU breeder in Canada that switched from drafts to top bred halter paint mares, and his babies sold usually in the five to ten k range, no shortage of homes.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SFM in KY said:


> I knew people in MT who had relatives in Canada and they knew some of the PMU people. They told me that during the time the PMU contracts were lucrative and a lot of mares were being bred, the Canadian government was actively encouraging the PMU breeders to upgrade the draft mares they were keeping as well as buying "good" light stallions to cross on them in the attempt to make the foals more marketable and thus less likely to end up as 'throwaway' foals that were simply a byproduct of the PMU business.


That's what I'd heard too, Sharon. Obie's sire was a Canadian Derby winner. I don't follow racing at all so I don't know if it's a big deal, but it sounds good!


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

It's clear to me that the animal rights industry has latched on to the PMU industry as a poster child, told a ton of lies and half-truths, and suckered a large number of well meaning folks.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

tinknal

That is their standard method of operation. No ugly animals in their ads or on their agenda.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Allen W said:


> tinknal
> 
> That is their standard method of operation. No ugly animals in their ads or on their agenda.


No, but plenty of pitiful ones.


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## Cindy in KY (May 10, 2002)

I'm not a member of any organization, nor do I give money to any of them, and I have not signed any petitions. I am not ignoring information. I do not watch the videos. I read both sides. I have just always felt that the whole PMU idea/operations was very stupid from the get-go. Very stupid with cruel results.

It would be hard for me to believe that no PMU foals went to slaughter in this country. I have followed it all along. I just hope that women stop taking it, and the production stops. And there are still PMU farms in the US. Hopefully they all are good ones and place the babies. One current website stated there were 6,000 needing to be adopted a year, and of course, that number is too high to have 100% success each year. And a lot of the horses/foals are shipped live over to Japan to be slaughtered there. The PMU industry has birthed a massive number of horses that would have otherwise not have been mass produced.

I have always been in favor of keeping the slaughter plants open. I just have a problem with sending healthy babies there.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Cindy in KY said:


> I'm not a member of any organization, nor do I give money to any of them, and I have not signed any petitions. I am not ignoring information. I do not watch the videos. I read both sides. I have just always felt that the whole PMU idea/operations was very stupid from the get-go. Very stupid with cruel results.
> 
> It would be hard for me to believe that no PMU foals went to slaughter in this country. I have followed it all along. I just hope that women stop taking it, and the production stops. And there are still PMU farms in the US. Hopefully they all are good ones and place the babies. One current website stated there were 6,000 needing to be adopted a year, and of course, that number is too high to have 100% success each year. And a lot of the horses/foals are shipped live over to Japan to be slaughtered there. The PMU industry has birthed a massive number of horses that would have otherwise not have been mass produced.
> 
> I have always been in favor of keeping the slaughter plants open. I just have a problem with sending healthy babies there.


A foal would not have enough meat on it for a slaughter plant to even bother with it. I simply do not believe that foals are being sent to slaughter. If you insist on maintaining that this occurs please find a _valid_ source and cite it here.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Cindy in KY said:


> One current website stated there were 6,000 needing to be adopted a year, and of course, that number is too high to have 100% success each year.


Cindy, I'd really appreciate if you would post a link to this current website. My feeling is that while the website itself may be current, the information on the numbers is not current and I would like to see their sources. As I posted several times, the most current information gathered (2010) by a Canadian government group shows something like a total between 1000 and 1500 foals produced a year now.

I'm perfectly willing to admit my numbers may not be correct if I can see something that is at least equally current and the information compiled by an equally valid source.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

There are very few PMU's left in Canada and it's a huge myth that the foals are an unwanted byproduct that gets dumped at auction someplace. Nobody in agriculture is so well off that they can just throw away profits. I actually have good friends that ran a pmu operation for many years and the reality is that the urine sales just isn't that lucrative so those in the industry tend to look at the urine sales as a side income and the foals as their main source of income. The NAERIC program was put in place years ago to provide horse ranches a way to showcase their foals and to earn points which only increases the value of their stock and it's been considered very successful.

It doesn't look like too many of these folks are having any problems selling their 'byproduct':

http://www.littlevalleyqh.com/foals.htm

These have quite a few sold already:

www.kjbridgeman.com/

Lone Oak Percherons and Charleswood Percherons sell a select few foals and the rest are sold as yearlings, 2 year olds but both seem to prefer to sell theirs when they're trained.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I've only read the last few posts but wanted to add my 2 cents on the PMU industry. At the outset, there were definitely some pretty crummy farms pumping out the hormones, mistreating the mares, thumping the babies in the head. Not all, not most, but *some*. Enough. But that kind of "business model" (sarcasm) is not economically viable, for many reasons. When the abusive farms started coming under scrutiny, Pfizer did angle a lot of lip service toward humane treatment of the mares and humane disposition of the foals. They tried to distance themselves from the scummier types of operations and leaned on their contract farms to keep everything on the up-and-up. 

Then the "Foal Train" type rescue networks started cropping up and essentially did the PMU foal industry's advertising for them. Suddenly even grade foals had buyers. Soon, however, the PMU farms found that it was much more lucrative to run a registered stud out with the mares and build a much more marketable "byproduct". And if bleeding hearts (no slur intended there, as I'm a big softie too) helped sell the babies, well, it was free advertising. The largest and most successful PMU farms were the ones that actually put thought toward their breeding schemes and ran purebred and registered stock, kept track of sires and dams, and offered registration of the foals. Not many PMU farms left now, because of the health hazards of Premarin. The synthetic stuff has mostly elbowed Premarin out.

I've got a Percheron mare that was on the pee line for a while. When the farm closed down, she and her co-workers got sent to a fairly high-volume horse dealer who, at that time, was shipping one double-decker truck of "rejects" every month or so at that time. I think there were 25 or so in that batch of Belgian and Percheron mares. I don't think any of them got sent to the slaughterhouse... the guy managed to get a bunch of bleeding hearts like myself to shell out $800 a pop for those middle-aged unbroke mares.  I spent too much, but she's been a good horse.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Cindy in KY said:


> I'm not a member of any organization, nor do I give money to any of them, and I have not signed any petitions. I am not ignoring information. I do not watch the videos. I read both sides. I have just always felt that the whole PMU idea/operations was very stupid from the get-go. Very stupid with cruel results.
> 
> It would be hard for me to believe that no PMU foals went to slaughter in this country. I have followed it all along. I just hope that women stop taking it, and the production stops. And there are still PMU farms in the US. Hopefully they all are good ones and place the babies. One current website stated there were 6,000 needing to be adopted a year, and of course, that number is too high to have 100% success each year. And a lot of the horses/foals are shipped live over to Japan to be slaughtered there. The PMU industry has birthed a massive number of horses that would have otherwise not have been mass produced.
> 
> I have always been in favor of keeping the slaughter plants open. I just have a problem with sending healthy babies there.


Can you link the site, please? I can't believe there are still 6000 PMU foals born in the US, the last stats I read indicated there were only a few farms left in North Dakota. Like others have said most HRT is synthetic and has been for the last few years.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

tinknal said:


> *A foal would not have enough meat on it for a slaughter plant to even bother with it.* I simply do not believe that foals are being sent to slaughter. If you insist on maintaining that this occurs please find a _valid_ source and cite it here.


I said that earlier too, Tink. Just didn't want to get my forehead all bloody from that brick wall


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## bluebird2o2 (Feb 14, 2007)

I dont know anyone that would take those hormones anymore. i have heard all the stories about cancer heart attack etc.many people are looking for natural herbal remedies.Someone on craigslist is claiming they have foals they saved from slaughter.They want way too much money for them.i think its a scam too get more money out of people.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

tinknal said:


> So what? Many registered pigs, cows, sheep, goats also go to slaughter. We don't even think about the slaughter of these animals.
> 
> Horses are made of _meat_ and most of the world realizes this. Horses are livestock. If you love your horse and don't want it slaughtered then fine, don't slaughter it, but no one really has any business assigning any guilt on those who have no problem sending this particular variety of livestock to slaughter.


The only time a register*ed* animal would go to slaughter would be if plenty was wrong with it. It is true, though, that plenty of register*able* stock from registered parents goes to slaughter.


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Any registered stock goes to slaughter unless it dies of something else first, and very few registered breeders would consider it a viable business plan to keep every animal on the farm until it dies of natural causes.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Heritagefarm said:


> The only time a register*ed* animal would go to slaughter would be if plenty was wrong with it. It is true, though, that plenty of register*able* stock from registered parents goes to slaughter.


As far as horses go, I know of a lot of registered horses that have gone through the auction rings, with registration papers. The monthly auction at Billings Livestock had a number of open TB and QH mares every spring that went through with their papers because the breeders hadn't been able to get them in foal early enough for the racing market. I always bought a few of the TB mares ... the others went to the canner horse buyers for the most part. The auctioneer always specified if there were registration papers on these horses, most were maybe from 10 to 14 or so with nothing wrong other than they had not settled in foal, but they did go to slaughter for the most part. Some were even rideable, but very, very few of them went to anyone other than the slaughter buyers.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

DaleK said:


> Any registered stock goes to slaughter unless it dies of something else first, and very few registered breeders would consider it a viable business plan to keep every animal on the farm until it dies of natural causes.


What Dale said.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

wolffeathers said:


> The animal rights groups pick and edit their videos for the worst content.
> 
> Watch some videos from Kentucky Fried Cruelty. They'll show broiler house workers jumping on, kicking, and throwing broiler chickens across the barn. Where an animal rights group says chickens should have the same rights as people and don't belong in a cage or "belong" to anyone.


DD came to me when she was about eight saying she would not eat chicken because she saw the KFC PETA videos on utube. One of the saddest parts of these videos is the damage PETA did to KFC. KFC doesn't even own chicken farms. These videos are set up to look as bad as possible and they don't represent what really happens in any slaughterhouse. I'd be a vegetarian if I worked at a meat locker. Heck, I haven't eaten at Arby's since I worked there the summer of 1987.

I don't understand the taste for horse meat. A friend of mine described horses as this funny mix of pet and livestock.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

SFM in KY said:


> As far as horses go, I know of a lot of registered horses that have gone through the auction rings, with registration papers. The monthly auction at Billings Livestock had a number of open TB and QH mares every spring that went through with their papers because the breeders hadn't been able to get them in foal early enough for the racing market. I always bought a few of the TB mares ... the others went to the canner horse buyers for the most part. The auctioneer always specified if there were registration papers on these horses, most were maybe from 10 to 14 or so with nothing wrong other than they had not settled in foal, but they did go to slaughter for the most part. Some were even rideable, but very, very few of them went to anyone other than the slaughter buyers.


In the event that a buyer buys a horse that is registered and takes it to sluaghter, then yes, a registered horse could go to slaughter in Mexico or wherever. However, that is not an intentional happening. I also have no idea about livestock auctions because I almost never go to them. Typically I just leave again when I do, because there are no genetics at an auction that I want, and everything will end up sick or diseased.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Joshie said:


> One of the saddest parts of these videos is the damage PETA did to KFC.


Erm... Why? KFC is not particularly anyways, though I cannot say I endorse PETA methods at all. Probably good intentions, just appallingly implemented and poorly thought through.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Heritagefarm said:


> In the event that a buyer buys a horse that is registered and takes it to sluaghter, then yes, a registered horse could go to slaughter in Mexico or wherever. However, that is not an intentional happening. I also have no idea about livestock auctions because I almost never go to them. Typically I just leave again when I do, because there are no genetics at an auction that I want, and everything will end up sick or diseased.


My experience with auction sales was prior to the slaughter plants being closed in the U.S. so I do not have any experience with auctions/sales since that closing.

At the time I was going to the auctions, they were a very *normal* venue for sales and purchases of both grade and registered horses in the area where I lived (MT/WY/CO/SD). It was not solely a 'dumping ground' for horses that were not useful as number of regional breeders routinely sold registered weanlings in the fall sales and started registered young horses under saddle in the spring sales. 

For several years I routinely bought 4 or 5 of open TB mares out of the sale rings every spring, did some basic repro 'rehabilitation' and bred them to my warmblood stallion. Those mares that settled in foal (probably 75% of my purchases) were then sold to warmblood breeders, in foal to my Oldenburg and were then presented at ISR/Oldenburg inspections with the foal at side and approved by the registry inspectors.

I selected the mares on the basis of conformation and movement, the ISR would accept any Jockey Club registered TB mare if her conformation and movement passed their inspection requirements and I did not have problems selling these mares on.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Heritagefarm said:


> The only time a register*ed* animal would go to slaughter would be if plenty was wrong with it.


That's not true at all.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

As far as PMU foals, even if they did raise them for two or three months and then ship them to slaughter what is the big blow up about? Veal is regularly eaten in this country. Spring goatlings and lambs are frequently consumed at Easter. In fact a lot of goats are butchered at 4 to 6 months old. They are still technically babies at that point. Where is the outrage? Where is the outrage over those poor calves being turned into tender veal? Or those soft, sweet little lambs, roasted and served with mint sauce?

The fact remains, that as beautiful as horses are, and as neat as they can be personality-wise, they are still livestock and a food source at any age. Our wether had a pretty cool personality. He was also extremely tasty on the grill. 

So even if there were an abundance of PMU foals going to slaughter, why should they be any more special than a calf,lamb, goatling? What makes them exempt. Even if they go for dog food, well, I love my dog too, and she's a meat eater. Maybe they went to feed some adorable little fuzzy white tiger babies at the zoo. 

I love horses. They are an icon of the freedom of spirit. They are graceful, loving,intelligent,elegant,beautiful, and when people can get away from the 'horses are pets' mentality, I am sure they are quite tasty. 

I once had two miniature horses that were only eight months old. I finally found homes for them, but was on the verge of butchering them and putting them in the freezer right next to the once cute, fuzzy bunnies.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

SFM in KY said:


> My experience with auction sales was prior to the slaughter plants being closed in the U.S. so I do not have any experience with auctions/sales since that closing.
> 
> At the time I was going to the auctions, they were a very *normal* venue for sales and purchases of both grade and registered horses in the area where I lived (MT/WY/CO/SD). It was not solely a 'dumping ground' for horses that were not useful as number of regional breeders routinely sold registered weanlings in the fall sales and started registered young horses under saddle in the spring sales.
> 
> ...


15+ years ago you could find a decent horse at an auction - if you knew what you were looking at/for.

In my neck of the woods, in the past 10 or so years, auctions have been a "dumping ground" for all sorts of horses that probably should never have been born. It's rare to find a well-trained or well-bred horse at an auction. Most are spoiled who would need a lot of retraining, or are fugly youngsters who are a poor example of what breeders should be producing.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

malinda said:


> 15+ years ago you could find a decent horse at an auction - if you knew what you were looking at/for.
> 
> In my neck of the woods, in the past 10 or so years, auctions have been a "dumping ground" for all sorts of horses that probably should never have been born. It's rare to find a well-trained or well-bred horse at an auction. Most are spoiled who would need a lot of retraining, or are fugly youngsters who are a poor example of what breeders should be producing.


Up to 5 years ago I was still going to the local auctions and between 2000 and 2005 bought 3 mares out of the auction ring that went on to be successful (know where 2 of them still are) plus bought several more from a local horse trader that I know. I haven't been to a sale since shortly after they closed the U.S. slaughter plants and all the local sale yards have stopped having horse sales.

For me, they were a useful 'tool' for the business I am in.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> As far as PMU foals, even if they did raise them for two or three months and then ship them to slaughter what is the big blow up about? Veal is regularly eaten in this country. Spring goatlings and lambs are frequently consumed at Easter. In fact a lot of goats are butchered at 4 to 6 months old. They are still technically babies at that point. Where is the outrage? Where is the outrage over those poor calves being turned into tender veal? Or those soft, sweet little lambs, roasted and served with mint sauce?
> 
> The fact remains, that as beautiful as horses are, and as neat as they can be personality-wise, they are still livestock and a food source at any age. Our wether had a pretty cool personality. He was also extremely tasty on the grill.
> 
> ...


Where's the "like" button? :thumb:


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> I love horses. They are an icon of the freedom of spirit. They are graceful, loving,intelligent,elegant,beautiful, and when people can get away from the 'horses are pets' mentality, I am sure they are quite tasty.
> 
> I once had two miniature horses that were only eight months old. I finally found homes for them, but was on the verge of butchering them and putting them in the freezer right next to the once cute, fuzzy bunnies.


I definitely have a different mindset than many people regarding horses because I grew up on a working ranch where they had to be able to do their job. The ones that did their job all their lives got retired on the ranch, but when it was necessary, they got put down.

However, when I was a kid, we still had a coyote problem at the ranch and actively hunted/trapped them. If we had a dead cow/dead horse the carcass went up on a hill back of the house that was within easy rifle shot and we used that carcass for bait to bring coyotes up ... and the ranch dog also figured it for his buffet as well.

I know of several other ranchers that did exactly the same thing ... just something you did if you were a rancher 50/60 years ago.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

SFM in KY said:


> Up to 5 years ago I was still going to the local auctions and between 2000 and 2005 bought 3 mares out of the auction ring that went on to be successful (know where 2 of them still are) plus bought several more from a local horse trader that I know. I haven't been to a sale since shortly after they closed the U.S. slaughter plants and all the local sale yards have stopped having horse sales.
> 
> For me, they were a useful 'tool' for the business I am in.


Back in the day that Larry Surrett was still a struggling horse trainer we would go to the sale barn and pluck good looking horses out of the kill pen.

They usually had some kind of behavior problem that needed to be fixed, sometimes quite easily. Only had one that we sent back, and he was a certifiable man eater. Beautiful TB/QH cross. We could have fixed him so that we could ride him, but we never would have sold him to someone knowing the mayhem he was capable of. This horse was the exact reason for the existence of the kill pen.


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