# butchering goat with cl abcess?



## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

A buck of mine came out with an abcess that I suspect to be CL abcess. I was thinking that I would butcher him right now. Is this possible? Has anyone butchered one with an abcess? Is it possible?

Remember, I live in MX and don't need to hear about how bad CL is.... I know! I promise!


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I wouldn't eat it.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

desertshi said:


> A buck of mine came out with an abcess that I suspect to be CL abcess. I was thinking that I would butcher him right now. Is this possible? Has anyone butchered one with an abcess? Is it possible?
> 
> Remember, I live in MX and don't need to hear about how bad CL is.... I know! I promise!


The majority of them go to the chivo dealers and are sold in ethnic markets. They eat them all the time. Cooking kills bacteria. I wouldn't eat it in a chevon tartar, but cooked is a different thing. 
I would definitely choose to wear rubber gloves when you butcher it, or if you are squeamish, simply sell it at a meat sale.


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## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

CL doesn't get into the meat...it is on organs only so I don't think that there is any problem with eating the meat...I'm pretty much just wondering if I'm going to be able to skin it with the abcess?? I don't want it to rupture and infect the healthy animals so I would love to butcher him tonight if possible!!


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Why don't you make a wide incision around it and remove it prior to skinning.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

How does the CL bacteria get from one part of the body to another? The blood and lymph system. How do you remove that from an animal during butchering? You can't.


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## Creamers (Aug 3, 2010)

I'd say almost all meat herds have CL, so if you've eaten goat meat from an unknown source, I'd bet the herd had CL - - - I am not sure how I'd handle it - maybe feed to dogs cooked?


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## freedomfrom4 (Jul 27, 2009)

For her goat meat would be a valuable asset, unlike our society which is more wasteful and thinks everything is disposiable. I agree with cutting out a safe area around the abcess. Please look up if cooking kills the bacteria.
Visiting other places makes me appreciate where I come from when I see how hard others have to live to survive.

Sorry I can't spell tonight.


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## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

Meat is definantly an asset to us. I cannot imagine just dumping an animal I have put sooo much money into to raise for meat. 

How would I cut around it? He's already hung and half way skinned and we are really debating how to get that abcess off. If I skin under it will it burst?? It's on the shoulder...would I cut a chunk of meat off around it? Thanks for all the imput my dear HT friends!! All of it is greatly appreciated always!


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

"I'd say almost all meat herds have CL, so if you've eaten goat meat from an unknown source, I'd bet the herd had CL"

REALLY? Your opinion is important; broad and degrading as it may be. That's like me saying that almost all dairy herd have CAE, or Johne's.

KY must have a HUGE problem with CL for you to make a statement like that, and since CL does not play favorites the dairy industry must have a huge problem also. 

There are many meat goat breeders who keep clean herds, as there are many dairy goat breeders who keep clean herds. 

There are also many dairy AND meat goat breeders who do not test, do not cull (kill) and diseases run rampant. These breeders are the ones to watch out for......not meat goat breeders in general.

Bashing meat goat breeders in general is in poor taste, IMO. Each herd is individual, and should not be thrown under the bus in such a generalized statement.

Geesh


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## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

We're done!! We skinned him completely out and when we got near the abcess we were very careful until we got right up to it. You could see some weird looking veins and we cut about a quarter inch into the meat at that point and very successfully removed the abcess without any sort of rupturing. Hopefully my experience will help someone ese down the road!! Thanks for all your input and help on this once again!


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I think that we need to avoid a tinkling match on this. Depending on the source, the infection rate is at least 30%.

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl/cl.shtml

I'm looking for more statistics, but it's a NASTY disease.


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## freedomfrom4 (Jul 27, 2009)

Ky does have a large population of meat goat breeders and there are many goat breeders that openly admit to having CL. There are many dairy people who do not openly admit they have it, but by looking at thier herd you can see they have had a problem with it. Not all have CL, but if you ate meat from a commercial sourse the odds are great that you have eaten an animal that has been exposed to CL.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Nasty and one to be avoided & culled out as the OP is doing. Still 30% is not most, nor are those statistics very accurate, but a best guess based on the animals going through slaughter, culls I might add. I've seen CAE quoted at 81% or 31% with a bigger pool, but again that number does NOT show the full picture, only those in the pool. 

Freedomfrom4 you worded that very nicely and based it on your observances/findings within your locale (KY).

Sounds like all went well today for the butchering. Glad you were able to utilize some of that meat. A job well done. I've read that the abcess would peel away with the skin.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I think if I were butchering an animal with known abscesses, I would double check every single piece of meat I put up to make sure there were no new spots/abscesses forming that might wind up in a meat dish.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I was wondering if it was possibly an injection site abscess anyway.


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## Creamers (Aug 3, 2010)

> "I'd say almost all meat herds have CL, so if you've eaten goat meat from an unknown source, I'd bet the herd had CL"
> 
> REALLY? Your opinion is important; broad and degrading as it may be. That's like me saying that almost all dairy herd have CAE, or Johne's.


Personally, your posted was far more rude than my own â but thanks for sharing 

Most dairy herds I've ran into do have CAE and most meat herds seem to have CL. 

The folks on this board aren't the norm - seeming to test and care so much - which is great - it isn't typical by a LONG shot.

ALMOST Every single meat breeder I've dealt with or talked to, as Lori said above, openly admit to not caring about, culling for or testing for CL. I'm glad you disagree and have had a difference experience. . . but It simply isnât the average experience. 


I remember many posts on here from people looking to buy from a clean herd and one such person traveled many, many hours to buy from a HT breeder because no such herd existed in her area, but that isnât the only such event. Iâve seen it repeated many times. I have a family member that runs a massive herd, and they went across the ENTIRE US to get their goats. . .because of this. Our stand in vet when your regular vet isnât around said he gave up trying to find tested, clean herds and got out of Boers. A vet!

Again, glad you havenât had the same experience has everyone else. I personally will no buy from a dairy breeder who runs meat goats for this reason.

Now, most dairy herds Iâve dealt with DO have or have had CAE. I would say 85% of all animals Iâve had tested before buying ended up positive and not purchased by me, of course. I recall Vicki on dairygoatinfo saying how almost every single newbie who buys without testing and then tests ends up with a CAE goat.

Desertshi, Iâm sorry it had to be done, but Iâm glad it is over and it went as well as could be expected.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

There is no way to know if the CL was isolated to that specific area or not. Just make sure that you cook that meat very well done, you really don't want to take any more chances than you need to. CL is capable of moving through individual cells.


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## desertshi (Jul 23, 2008)

HappyFarmer said:


> Sounds like all went well today for the butchering. Glad you were able to utilize some of that meat. A job well done. I've read that the abcess would peel away with the skin.


Yes it went great and thank you!  The abcess did pretty much just peel away. We were extra, extra careful though and that is why I decided to cut a fraction of meat off as well. 



motdaugrnds said:


> I think if I were butchering an animal with known abscesses, I would double check every single piece of meat I put up to make sure there were no new spots/abscesses forming that might wind up in a meat dish.


I now know that the abcess is in the skin! Not in the meat itself.  I checked all the organs as well and he was otherwise very healthy and had no other abcesses. 



Alice In TX/MO said:


> I was wondering if it was possibly an injection site abscess anyway.


While I am not 100% positive it was a CL abcess since we don't have testing facilities down here, I don't think it was an injection site abcess since I don't inject at the shoulder. It was a pretty good placement for a cl abcess. 



Creamers said:


> Desertshi, Iâm sorry it had to be done, but Iâm glad it is over and it went as well as could be expected.


It's alright....we knew he was destined for the freezer anyways. He just took the trip a little sooner


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## okiemom (May 12, 2002)

if you are open to other ideas check out treating the absesses with formilin and the vaccine for cl. There is a way to get cl out of the heard once it is in.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

okiemom said:


> if you are open to other ideas check out treating the absesses with formilin and the vaccine for cl. There is a way to get cl out of the heard once it is in.


The CL vaccine does not work for goats and could likely do more damage than good. There is little that can currently be done, but we have discussed various methods in the past here, including wholloping doses of antibiotics, bleach on the fields, etc. which might change the pH too much.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

HappyFarmer said:


> "I'd say almost all meat herds have CL, so if you've eaten goat meat from an unknown source, I'd bet the herd had CL"


Actually the statistic is something like just under 80% of goat herds in this nation have been exposed to CL at one time or another. Lets face it, a dog walks across the pasture or a coyote or any other mammal that carries the disease, and the herd is exposed. People are too hyper about it. It is impossible for the majority goat herds to not be exposed to a cross-species zoonotic bacteria at some point. That doesn't mean to purposely go out and find a goat with abscesses then bring it home and drink the milk raw or eat it in a tartar, but people need to calm themselves a bit. It's like being afraid of a widespread disease or MG in poultry flocks or anything else. Take precautions, but don't work yourselves into a tizzy. Are we afraid that the fifteenth person before us who used the cart at WM was positive for HIV? Do we obsess about those fears? Spreading unnecessary fear is not a good thing. What should we do, send people out to their fields with bleach to pour on the ground once a month just in case an infected rabbit crossed the pasture?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Who is in a tizzy? 

And... I wipe the cart handle in Wal-Mart. My hubby is immune suppressed, and I'm not bringing home germs from people who don't wash after they go to the bathroom. Most don't.

Keeping the discussion open and active about CL is a good thing. NOBODY is advocating bleaching fields.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

mekasmom said:


> Actually the statistic is something like just under 80% of goat herds in this nation have been exposed to CL at one time or another. Lets face it, a dog walks across the pasture or a coyote or any other mammal that carries the disease, and the herd is exposed. People are too hyper about it. It is impossible for the majority goat herds to not be exposed to a cross-species zoonotic bacteria at some point. That doesn't mean to purposely go out and find a goat with abscesses then bring it home and drink the milk raw or eat it in a tartar, but people need to calm themselves a bit. It's like being afraid of a widespread disease or MG in poultry flocks or anything else. Take precautions, but don't work yourselves into a tizzy. Are we afraid that the fifteenth person before us who used the cart at WM was positive for HIV? Do we obsess about those fears? Spreading unnecessary fear is not a good thing. What should we do, send people out to their fields with bleach to pour on the ground once a month just in case an infected rabbit crossed the pasture?


CAE: Is basically impossible to transmit under normal herd conditions.
*CL: Is highly contagious.*

CAE: Is quite possible to clean your herd of.
*CL: Is basically impossible to clean your herd of. *

CAE: Is normally not very destructive.
*CL: Can wipe out entire herds.*

CAE: Is not transmittable to humans.
*CL: Is transmittable to humans.*


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Keeping the discussion open and active about CL is a good thing. NOBODY is advocating bleaching fields.


I was, but only as a desperate way to kill soil-dwelling CL. Much better to just kill the herd and wait a year.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

mekasmom said:


> Actually the statistic is something like just under 80% of goat herds in this nation have been exposed to CL at one time or another. Lets face it, a dog walks across the pasture or a coyote or any other mammal that carries the disease, and the herd is exposed. People are too hyper about it. It is impossible for the majority goat herds to not be exposed to a cross-species zoonotic bacteria at some point. That doesn't mean to purposely go out and find a goat with abscesses then bring it home and drink the milk raw or eat it in a tartar, but people need to calm themselves a bit. It's like being afraid of a widespread disease or MG in poultry flocks or anything else. Take precautions, but don't work yourselves into a tizzy. Are we afraid that the fifteenth person before us who used the cart at WM was positive for HIV? Do we obsess about those fears? Spreading unnecessary fear is not a good thing. What should we do, send people out to their fields with bleach to pour on the ground once a month just in case an infected rabbit crossed the pasture?


I find it a little disconcerting that some people are incredibly glib about such a nasty disease.

IF people were a little more concerned about CL, we would have a much lower incidence in this country.

Great Britain, for instance, has only an 8% CL rate, compared to our 80% CL rate. The difference? People there are "obsessed" about eradicating -- or at least minimalizing -- CL.

Unlike people in the States who accuse others of crying "wolf" about it...


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Just for the record the above that quotes me was a quote in itself. Those were not my words.

I am a huge advocate of clean herds including (or in this case excluding) CL. As I stated previously those statistics are not accurate, they are a guess. Nothing more, nothing less, used to make point being made at the time for whomever paid for the study. Once again, an 80% statistic may be accurate from the pool of goats taken to slaughter at certain slaughter houses, but one must remember that those numbers come from a pool of animals where say 1000 animals came from 20 farms, which of course skews the numbers claiming to represent the US herd population. Also one must remember those at the slaughter house are the intended slaughter animals AND the culls of the herds. Those numbers also do not include on the hoof/farm sales or home slaughters. 

Interesting & comparitivly the CAE numbers I quoted prior of 81% CAE vs. 31% CAE prevailance, for example, came from something like 24 states and 28 states respectively. Big difference there by adding locales and possibly herds of cleaner origin. 

Nonetheless dairy AND meat breeders should be working to irradicate these devastating diseases, and that includes CAE AND Johne's in addition to CLA. To do otherwise is irresponsible and a continuous threat to the industries well being, IMO.

These diseases are an issue in both meat AND Dairy.


HF


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Pony said:


> Great Britain, for instance, has only an 8% CL rate, compared to our 80% CL rate. The difference? People there are "obsessed" about eradicating -- or at least minimalizing -- CL.


Both CAE and CL are reportable diseases in Britian where the farmers are compensated for destroyed herds. That isn't so in this nation. It's not even reportable. There is no way to eradicate it here unless we know where it is, and have a mandatory quarantine/destruction plan at a federal level. And do we really want more government oversight of our private lands and herds? And, with CL, it is a zoonotic anaerobic bacteria. There is never going to be a way to eradicate it simply because of what it is. 

But on boards like this where people scream about it killing people all the time, and talk like masses are infected with it every year, it scares people. It dissuades some from even having goats which is such a shame. Spreading unrealistic panic is not good. Cook the meat. It will kill bacteria. People all over this world live on goat meat, and very few places report the disease or test for it. Yet somehow, society survives. Let's be realistic in our posting. How many people a year worldwide die of corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis based infections? Less than 1000, and probably less than 100, but since not every nation reports causes of death we will assume more than are listed. And how many of those who die get the bacterial from consuming goat meat? Then compare those numbers to the vast number of people all over this world who rely on goat as their main source of protein and milk which is something like 70% of the world population. It's not something to stir up a panic over. You have more of a chance of catching many other bacterial diseases not caused by corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis. If you want to be afraid of something, then think about the resistant parasites in caprine because you are much more likely to catch those rather than CL. And parasites kill more people worldwide than corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis does. And it is impossible for you to catch CAE, so you don't have to worry about that in relationship to your health at all. At least be realistic in your imaginations and fears. Unless you are opening an abscess and licking up the ick out of it, you are probably never going to catch the disease, and statistically, you probably wouldn't even catch it if you did that because your stomach acid would kill it. We need to keep things in perspective. It is just not common for the disease to spread to humans, and it is highly unlikely for it to be the cause of death especially in this nation. It is zoonotic and can spread to humans, yes. But it is a rare spread, not a common one. And cooking the meat will kill the bacteria anyway.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

With all due respect, nobody is screaming. Nobody is claiming that masses are dying. Good grief. YOU are spreading those ideas. No one else. Let's be realistic in YOUR claims, too, please.

We were having a polite conversation, I thought. Mostly.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Bleaching your field wouldn't work as organic matter nuetralizes bleach.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> With all due respect, nobody is screaming. Nobody is claiming that masses are dying. Good grief. YOU are spreading those ideas. No one else. Let's be realistic in YOUR claims, too, please.
> 
> We were having a polite conversation, I thought. Mostly.


I am being polite. I am just saying be realistic and look at the statistics. Some boards, not just on this site, but others too, cause an unrealistic fear of catching the diseases from goats. It is rare, not common. And, the two diseases mentioned by someone else are much less commonly transmitted to humans world wide than simple parasites. In fact CAE is not transmitted to humans at all, not once, not ever. And we really don't have to be afraid of those parasites so much in this nation because we have very effective treatments, although they kill many more thousands of humans world wide than corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis ever does.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

mekasmom said:


> And, with CL, it is a zoonotic anaerobic bacteria. There is never going to be a way to eradicate it simply because of what it is.


With all due respect, CL is actually fucultative and capable of anaerobic respiration and fermentation.



southerngurl said:


> Bleaching your field wouldn't work as organic matter nuetralizes bleach.


Do you think it would destroy bacteria before being neutralized by the OM?



mekasmom said:


> I am just saying be realistic and look at the statistics.


What statistics? I am not aware of any...


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Some links on the bacteria in relation to humans--
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ut...uberculosis number of cases in humans&f=false

http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/20103120190.html

http://www.inta.gov.ar/bariloche/info/documentos/animal/salud/2011 ResVetSci Coryne.pdf

http://jb.asm.org/cgi/content/full/193/1/323


Most of them say human infections of the bacteria are rare. Considering the mass numbers of societies in the world where goats are the primary source of protein, and reporting the disease is not mandatory nor is testing, and the fact that those humans are living, procreating and growing in population, it's not something to be extravagantly afraid of. Be aware of it, cook meat, wear gloves when you butcher, but don't loose sleep over worrying about it. And think about the fact that they only found 31 human cases of the disease in all those nations for the one study. That is a pretty low number considering the number of people who have sheep/goats and deal with them. It's just not an overly huge number of cases for the amount of humans in question.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Also take into account that many of these nations are not actually healthy. Also be aware that, since a lot of these areas with diseased goats are going to be third world, reporting of disease causes are going to be minimal.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I wouldn't be that afraid for me, but rather, for my herd.


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## okiemom (May 12, 2002)

Where is it said the vaccine doesent work? it is now for goats. you can get special vaccines for it as well. I have yet to meet anyone with it an there are many goat people in Ok. Most of them are traders who I know dont mess with quarintining goats. Most of the goats that go through a auction will be exposed.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

okiemom said:


> Where is it said the vaccine doesent work? it is now for goats. you can get special vaccines for it as well.


Is it out for caprine now? In the past people simply used the sheep vaccine. I knew they were developing a goat variation, but didn't know it was out? What is the name of the vaccine? It would make sense that the sheep one would work in the caprine though because we use a very similar vaccine for diphtheria in this nation, and it works. And cow pox vaccine worked to wipe out small pox. Many times those cross species vaccines do work.


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## okiemom (May 12, 2002)

jeffers sells it. goat world also talks about it. there is still not enough economic pushing to get the ag world to get serious about this issue. ps. if you do vaccinate with it as I do. it can give false info when you try to test. If there is a vaccine it would be better to prevent it than try to fix it. There are many good articles about prevention AND control if it is in your herd. Formalin will work. prevention is better. I prefer to vaccinate.


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## coso (Feb 24, 2004)

If you read, it is still just labeled for sheep, though some goat people use it.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

okiemom said:


> Where is it said the vaccine doesent work? it is now for goats. you can get special vaccines for it as well. I have yet to meet anyone with it an there are many goat people in Ok. Most of them are traders who I know dont mess with quarintining goats. Most of the goats that go through a auction will be exposed.


No they do not. It is for sheep and it causes more harm then good and it is NOT recommended for use on goats. While some things for horses and cows we can use this is not one of them.

If you are thinking CL Perfringens is for CL it is not that is for overeating disease and a part of the CD&T vaccine. 

Colorado Serum has been promising the CL vaccine for goats for a few years now and still have yet to produce it.


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## okiemom (May 12, 2002)

the sheep vaccine is also off lable to goats. If you dont feel comfortable using it great don't. The vets around here recomend it and say it is a paper game while we wait for it to be labled. 

that is why everyone needs to do their own research and check multiple sources. http://www.jackmauldin.com/diseases.htm and http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/articlesMain.html#Articles

and talk to their vets.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

okiemom said:


> If there is a vaccine it would be better to prevent it than try to fix it.


I agree with you on this. I know they have been talking about a caprine version coming out for a long time. Unfortunately, in this nation, there isn't a lot of anything made specially for caprine. Almost everything is used as a cross species med because there isn't a lot of money in goats for the pharmaceutical companies. And many of the off labels med/vaccines we use work.


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## coso (Feb 24, 2004)

You posted


> it is now for goats.


 People have used it for years on goats off label, as we do a lot of other things. You implied that it was labeled for goats as of recently. I just wanted people to understand, that it was not labeled for goats and to proceed at there own risk.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Here's a link to an article if people want to read research based information instead of opinions. 
http://www.vet.ksu.edu/depts/vmth/agpract/articles/Caseous_Lymph.pdf

The info there is about sheep. If someone has research and citations about goats, I'd appreciate it if you'd post them.

The vaccine offered at Jeffers Livestock is for sheep, and it says so on the label. The article referenced about says that for sheep, vaccinating will result in animals who test positive for the disease. That's not really a surprise.

I'd like to see results of caprine controlled testing.

Until that time, I'll just buy from clean herds only.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

I believe all zoonotic disease (animal) vaccines that have the possibility of infecting humans are killed. I might be wrong, but I believe this is the case of all zoonotic diseases. I only took a few courses on animal diseases and husbandry in college (way in the past) so I could be wrong.


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## coso (Feb 24, 2004)

Alice Yes, it says it is a killed bacterin toxoid. http://www.colorado-serum.com/csc/case_bac.html



> Until that time, I'll just buy from clean herds only.


 :thumb::thumb:


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## yarrow (Apr 27, 2004)

exactly.. buy clean, stay clean.. SELL clean.. and you won't have to worry do you vaccinate/do you not vaccinate...

susie, mo ozarks


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

coso said:


> You posted People have used it for years on goats off label, as we do a lot of other things. You implied that it was labeled for goats as of recently. I just wanted people to understand, that it was not labeled for goats and to proceed at there own risk.


We won't buy from people who use the CL vaccine, since it is for sheep and not goats, and therfore has a risk of doing far more bad than good.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I don't know if there is a risk of it "doing bad" but it can make them test positive when they don't have the disease.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

mekasmom said:


> But on boards like this where people scream about it killing people all the time, and talk like masses are infected with it every year, it scares people. It dissuades some from even having goats which is such a shame. Spreading unrealistic panic is not good.


Waitaminit.

I obviously missed something.

Would you please direct me to the posts where "people scream about it killing people all the time;" talking "like masses are infected with it;" and "spreading unrealistic panic"? :run:

Hm. Are we reading the same forum???:shocked:


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