# scrap meat for part of the pigs feed?



## cmharris6002 (Jan 27, 2006)

Rumor has it that meat scraps for pigs can make them mean. Any truth to this?

Thanks


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

Are you soaking your meat scraps in Whiskey?


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

You trust Rumor? That guy is always wrong. 

The only thing that makes pigs mean are people.


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## cmharris6002 (Jan 27, 2006)

tried to edit but double posted...


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## cmharris6002 (Jan 27, 2006)

LOL!! No, the last thing I need is a couple of mean hogs drunk on whiskey  

My daughter works at a grocery store and brings produce and meat scraps - but not pork. Someone told her that the meat scraps would make the pigs mean and hard to handle however we were also told they need the protein...


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

I've fed it to feeders. Never any problem. Pigs see meat as food. I doubt that they make the connection between you and meat. Of course if you drop dead in the pig pen..........


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

In former days, a dead cow or horse was often dragged to the hog pasture. If summertime, didn't need to open them up. If wintertime, an axe to open the body cavity was enough. Didn't make the hogs any meaner, just better conditioned. 

Martin


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

HeritagePigs said:


> The only thing that makes pigs mean are people.


Actually, genetics has a lot to do with temperament. It is very clearly traceable and heritable.

The big reason for not feeding meat to pigs is that there is the worry about transmission of disease. Thorough cooking should solve that issue. It is illegal in most (all?) states now to feed meat (often phrased post-consumer wastes) to pigs.

I compost meat. It turns it into excellent soil amendment making for rich gardens.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Define "temperament". If you mean nervousness and reaction to stress I would agree. If you mean "meanness" as in tendency to attack other pigs and people regardless of environmental stress then I disagree. 

I've never seen a "mean" pig that could not be explained as the result of human behavior. "Human behavior" includes the creation of a stressful environment for the pig.

Being "mean" is not a productive trait for any social population. Evolution, "heritability", would work against such a trait.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

I've seen mean pigs that were mean to other pigs without any cause by people. We have had thousands of pigs. They get treated the same by us, very gently. Yet there have been mean ones who attack other pigs. Tracing their lineage I find a distinct commonality to their genetic line. Culling those lines cuts down on the bad tempered pigs which makes everyone else much happier. Meanness can be genetic. This is supported by scientific research as well as my own observations. If you really care, Google.

Being mean is a productive trait in the wild, it gets you more food, more mates, the best sleeping spot, etc. Pigs don't do social cooperation in the way that dogs or humans do. Very different. Pigs are self oriented.

Breed for nice pigs.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

"If you really care, Google." I do care, and I do Google, and you are simply wrong.


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## bruceki (Nov 16, 2009)

I wrote a detailed blog entry about feeding pigs meat, including the historical reason that we don't, and you'll find the whole thing here. 

The most famous farm that is feeding their pigs post-consumer food is RC farms in las vegas. I wrote up visiting their farm on my blog here. 

The issues about what you feed your pigs are primarily around the resale of that animal. If you're producing the pig for your own family, and feeding it food from your own plates, for instance, first, how will anyone ever know? and second, your pig does run the risk of getting whatever your family might have in the way of colds or whatever, but it already runs those risks. 

If you're going to feed pigs waste AND resell the pigs to other folks, check with both your state department of agriculture and your county health department, as both can have regulations related to pigs and food. In washington state, the county health departments have a seperate set of regulations that they enforce that the state veterinarian doesn't, and vis a vis. 

Bruce / ebeyfarm.blogspot.com


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

I was fortunate to be able to do research and then speak with a number of Pig Farmers to decide how I would decide to feed our pigs. In addition, I got some useful suggestions from folks right here on HT. 

Since I am new at piglets, I can only post from that perspective, however, I can certainly pass on what I learned and saw firsthand. The Pig Farmer I purchased our piglets from had really cute names for all his breeder pigs, then *got right in the field with HUGE pigs, who absolutely ALL adored him*. When I told him we were feeding our pigs a natural diet supplemented with oats/barley/corn fermented with fruits, veggies, and herbs, and ALSO feeding them meat, fresh fruits/veggies, small amounts of bread... he was thrilled & highly encouraged me. Now, that said? The meat we provide to our pigs is not spoiled, only scraps from us. What meat they are given could be eaten by us or our dog and also has been cooked well. We recently baked a turkey, and gave our piglets the fully cooked neck. They loved it! When we had crab, we gave the shells & innards to our piglets, who flat squealed over them. If a pig were able to choose what it ate, it would be eating our rabbits, chickens, any rodents they could catch, and a whole lot more. Why not give them what they would naturally eat as part of their diet? Make them mean? I don't agree based on what I have been told by plenty of folks with many years of experience raising pigs. They also agreed with what HeritagePigs has stated. Pigs are highly intelligent and are very nice if you treat them nice. Phillly Bob told me this. I watched his huge pigs gently rub their heads against him, crowd all around him, waiting for him to pet/scratch each of them. 

As for re-selling pigs, that isn't what we have elected to do. Our extra's are being pre-sold to folks who want them fed the way we are feeding them. One is sold and the other will be soon. We are keeping the 3rd for ourselves. 

Within one week, our piglets come when called, follow me closely when I carry out their feed bucket. I am teaching them to back off before I pour their bucket, which they will readily do. Soon, they will have a trough closer to the entry gate. I am going to move the piglets if we can afford to fence another area. They are currently in the orchard, but even being in there for 4.5 months may not be a good idea. They are currently 9 weeks old. In the week we have had them, I have been sniffed, licked, and twice a very gentle nibble, which I discouraged completely. When I feed them by hand, it is flat & outstretched (like with a fresh strawberry on it). Meat isn't fed by hand, but I tell them to back up and set the meat on top of their other food. They would rather have meat than anything else, which I find interesting. I can offer them a strawberry or a piece of meat and they go for the meat. We cut up an old rooster and used him for crab bait. When DH is done with the bait for today, it will be cooked up, and then fed to the piglets. It has been kept cold in deep water, so is still good meat...


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## bruceki (Nov 16, 2009)

lori: 

"As for re-selling pigs, that isn't what we have elected to do. Our extra's are being pre-sold to folks who want them fed the way we are feeding them. One is sold and the other will be soon. We are keeping the 3rd for ourselves. "

That is PRECISELY what is forbidden by the current state and federal laws. You cannot legally sell animals that you have fed meat scraps to unless the scraps have been sterilized. The regulations in washington state even specify the amount of time you have to boil them. 

I think somehow you think that if you sell animals to folks you know that you're immune from the law, or not subject to it. you are not, and you are. 

If you eat the pigs yourself, there's no issue with the federal law -- you're specifically allowed to feed table scraps to your own hogs. You'll have to check your state law to figure out if you're violating one of them. 

Bruce / ebeyfarm.blogspot.com


Oh yea; why do I care? We've all heard terrible stories about something the USDA did to someones flock or herd as a result of concern about disease. Why put yourself or your farm into that crosshair?


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

bruceki said:


> lori:
> 
> "As for re-selling pigs, that isn't what we have elected to do. Our extra's are being pre-sold to folks who want them fed the way we are feeding them. One is sold and the other will be soon. We are keeping the 3rd for ourselves. "
> 
> ...


That is a good point. Fortunately, in our case, probably the one thing we need to confirm is the meat cooking requirements. All fruits, veggies, and herbs are in good condition, fit for human consumption, even. Absolutely no "trash" is being fed to them. They are living in a fruit orchard and eating as much grass as they want. I am not concerned about disease due to the care our piglets are getting, their diet included. Most folks don't bother to pick up their poo, but I am doing that, too. Our piglets have a little house built just for them with over 6 inches of pine shavings. They are keeping it clean and just love sleeping in it. 

What I wasn't impressed with was seeing piglets put in small enclosed areas, being raised on mud, fed rotten fruits, vegetables, day old bread, and cheap hay. I chose the Pig Farmer I purchased from based on his recommendations for the piglets. The diet I have them on has been approved by 5 different Pig Farmers.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)




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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Going back to the '40s and '50s, the only supplemental food which we ever bought for the hogs was tankage. Living within an hour from Oscar Mayer's, it was cheap and anyone with hogs fed it as a normal thing to do. Somewhere along the ways, something detrimental was found and apparently discontinued. The alternative disposal now is not something that you want to be downwind from!

Nature of hogs can definitely said to be genetic. The Durocs on our home farm were such that I could lay down beside an old sow and sleep until she roused me when farrowing. At Taliesin, Durocs also were the only hogs we had but rule was to not allow any part of a body within biting reach without a club in hand. Don't know the origin of them but they were just plain mean! Last farm had Berkshires and every one of them were like little puppies! 

Martin


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

Very interesting, Martin, as usual. Our pigs are Hampshire 50%/Yorkshire25%/Duroc25%. Although we have only had them a week now, each is beginning to show unique personalities. Ham is shy and very gentle. Bacon is the leader, the largest, also gentle. Sausage is the largest, the most gentle, and the least shy. I had heard, from Philly Bob, who we bought our piglets from, he didn't breed 100% Durocs due to their temperament. You reminded me of that comment. I already wrote how incredibly gentle and affectionate his giant sows were (breeding stock) with him. He maintained pigs treated well were nicer pigs.

As for heating meat to feed to piglets, here is what I found:

_*a) Food waste shall be heated throughout at boiling (212Â°F or 100Â°C at sea level) for 30 (thirty) minutes; and, b) it shall be agitated during cooking, except in the steam cooking equipment, to ensure that the prescribed cooking temperature is maintained throughout the cooking container for the prescribed length of time.

There are two methods generally preferred for the heat treatment of food waste: direct fire, and steam injection (USDA-APHIS, VS, 1990). The direct fire method heats the food waste with flames that come in direct contact with a cooking vat that is stirred regularly. For larger operations, a steam injection method is used. This involves injecting steam into the bottom of a load of food waste so that it is evenly heated as steam percolates through the food waste. *_

We just so happen to use a cooking vat over a flame to cook crabs & boil meat in. When DH cooked the crab, it was for 20 minutes, but he cooks them whole. So, then we'd have to cook the innards/outer shell longer, it seems, after cleaning. When he boiled the turkey neck, that was for an entire hour. This has me wondering about turkey scraps from a turkey baked for hours in the oven, from a roast also baked for hours, roasted chicken... When DH goes hunting, Venison will be on the menu, too. I was already warned to not offer any fish to the piglets 2 months before slaughtering.


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## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

For those new to pig farming that may be wondering why there are regulations and concern about feeding meat to pigs, do a search for "2001 UK foot and mouth disease outbreak". It all started from a farmer feeding infected meat to his pigs. I do not and will never feed meat to my pigs. I chose heritage breeds that do well on a vegan diet. And I have a very strict biosecurity plan. I don't ever want to be responsible for you having to cull your herds.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

HeritagePigs said:


> For those new to pig farming that may be wondering why there are regulations and concern about feeding meat to pigs, do a search for "2001 UK foot and mouth disease outbreak". It all started from a farmer feeding infected meat to his pigs. I do not and will never feed meat to my pigs. I chose heritage breeds that do well on a vegan diet. And I have a very strict biosecurity plan. I don't ever want to be responsible for you having to cull your herds.


Since pigs are omnivores, meat is part of their natural diet (that doesn't mean they can't enough protein without it, however). Out in a field, they will eat insects, larvae, rodents, and other small animals (probably moles, too). Although I am new to pigs, I'd never feed our piglets ANYTHING we couldn't eat. That is an invitation for a bad outcome. Since I am also feeding our piglets dried Nettles (40% protein) and also Comfrey (19% protein), and also other higher protein leafy varieties, they don't need and won't get much meat, anyway.


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## bruceki (Nov 16, 2009)

Lori, with respect to what the requirements are to feed waste to pigs in washington state call Dr. Jeffrey R. Howlett, DVM. He is the animal health veterinarian of the animal services division of the department of agriculture. 

You can reach him at 360 961 4129 (cell) or 360 901-1678. He's the fellow that inspected my farm for compliance with the law a month or so ago. 

Part of his job is to find sources of food (stores, cafeterias, military bases etc) and ask how they are disposing of their waste. If it's being used for animal feed he goes to the location to check it out. I met him in relationship to a contract I have with a grocery store chain to pick up their pulled produce. 

There are also washington state regulations related to how you feed the material and cleanup requirements. Summary: You have to feed the stuff on a concrete slab or other impervious material, and any uneaten must be buried DAILY, and the whole operation has to use either mineral oil, slaked lime or other stuff (statute spells it out) to control odor. 

Please note that he is the enforcement arm of the law, and I would be careful about what you say to him. 

Bruce / ebeyfarm.blogspot.com


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## bruceki (Nov 16, 2009)

When you cook a turkey you do so until the internal temperature of the bird reaches 160 degrees or so. That's not 212 degrees. While the food might be safe to eat, the regulations related to food you feed to swine are explicit and they don't have to make scientific sense. My guess is that baking isn't going to be sufficient. The regs say 212 degrees for 30 minutes. 

With respect to whether you're 'feeding someone elses animal' -- that's a legal point. I'm not an attorney, and I'd rather not have to pay an attorney in the event of a charge, so I just comply the with law as written, which for me means that I don't feed meat waste of any sort to my hogs that hasn't been processed according to the statute; commercial hog feed usually has some portion of it that's meat waste. Plasma, bone meal, meat meal... but the feed mill takes care of the processing.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

Bruceki- Thank you for all the helpful information. Based on everything you have posted, it certainly makes sense why so many are choosing to feed their pigs commercial food. I know of one Rancher, who owns thousands of acres, who just free-ranges his pigs and all his other livestock, just supplementing them with Alfalfa, no grains or anything else. He is in another State, however. It sure sounds like it would be simplify everything to skip feeding meat, altogether. After the information I confirmed, I am seriously considering only raising the piglet we are keeping for ourselves.


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## bruceki (Nov 16, 2009)

It's always good to check what you read on the internet. Anyone can write anything they want, and some of that information is good. 

Always a good idea to verify something before you take it as fact.


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