# vistor today



## jamala (May 4, 2007)

We had a vistor to the farm today. He was from the census group. Said he was just verifing address and marking GPS location of the address. He had this little tiny computer about the size of a calculator and his badges and id's. He said someone else would be by soon with census packs. He was very nice but marking GPS location kinda sounded strange shouldn't they know that from 911 addresses. Has anyone else been visited?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

There's a whole thread about this in General Chat. This is how they are going to be locating the buildings, to eventually by 2010 or so, go fully electronic on the census.

Angie


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Here's a question - is answering the census questions mandatory?


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## ihedrick (May 15, 2005)

Do they have to honor no trespassing signs?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=302001

This is a thread from mnnest that WAS going to do census work and went to the first training session. It gives some of what she learned.

Angie


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

I'm in census training now & no, we don't have to pay attention to no trespassing signs. We do, however, pay attention to large dogs & beware of dog signs. We do the "ping" at the gate instead of the door. 

I'll probably get my own "neighborhood", so there will be more than a few gates instead of doors getting "pinged."


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

Bonnie L said:


> I'm in census training now & no, we don't have to pay attention to no trespassing signs. "



Really? Ask about this one. http://www.narlo.org/images/sign.jpg
:cowboy:


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## Bruenor (Oct 2, 2008)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> Really? Ask about this one. http://www.narlo.org/images/sign.jpg
> :cowboy:


I've never seen another sign that more says "Investigate me!" Personally I prefer to keep a low profile.


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

Sorry to spoil your fun, but federal employees - which is what census employees are - are allowed to ignore no trespassing signs. 

All census employees take an oath to uphold the Constitution. The census is authorized by Congress. So we are authorized to do our jobs, even though it involves going onto private property. 

If you want that changed, you can talk with your senator.


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## Bruenor (Oct 2, 2008)

Bonnie L said:


> Sorry to spoil your fun, but federal employees - which is what census employees are - are allowed to ignore no trespassing signs.


If that was the case, wouldn't FBI agents be able to enter any property without a warrant?


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

Census employees don't go inside. We just walk up to the door, push a button on the little computer, & walk away. We are not there to arrest anyone or remove evidence. There _is_ a difference.

eta - I had to look up the correct wording. The census is mandated by the Constitution. It says, in Article 1, Section 2: "The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct."


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

Mom_of_Four said:


> Here's a question - is answering the census questions mandatory?


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode13/usc_sup_01_13.html
Refer to Title 13 chapter 7 section 2 of the U.S. code for details.

Note that census is under the Commerce department. I don't do commerce well so have duly notified the Secretary of the Commerce Dept that Title 13 has no application to me. He must have agreed as no responding correspondence was received.


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

I think it's ironic that so many people will appeal to the Constitution to uphold rights, yet insist it has nothing to do with them if it involves a duty.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

WolfWalksSoftly said:


> Really? Ask about this one. http://www.narlo.org/images/sign.jpg
> :cowboy:


Those signs were designed specifically to sell to naive but well-meaning self perceived tough patriot/tin foil hat types.... and they sold well, for a while.
They have zero value to the informed bureaucrat as only one man in a hundred thousand has the legal or, more importantly, lawful standing to back that notice up in court.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

If anyone comes on privately owned land without permission it is trespassing.
Just curious, what does GPS have to do with getting an accurate tally of people of voting age?
There are a lot of others who live in the "country" who feel as I do.
I am not a tough, tin foil hat patriot type.
I have a locked gated driveway for a reason. If I want visitors, I will invite them, or they will call first.
I am not one of them, but in my neck of the woods, people are very anti-Government (and with good reason I might add) and I have already heard of shots being fired at trespassers. (In my view that is extreme.)
Just because you work for the Gov.,and are just doing your job, doesn't mean you are invincible. I would make every effort to let people know you are about to approach their house.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I got my visit last week. She was very confused by the properties down our lane. She said she was just gathering building info and that they would be coming back around for the population part.

I felt extremely uneasy to be pinpointed, our little lane was very under the radar up til now, and I liked it that way.


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

Bonnie L said:


> I think it's ironic that so many people will appeal to the Constitution to uphold rights, yet insist it has nothing to do with them if it involves a duty.


Is privacy is a right? Does duty derive solely from oath or contract? Does the Commerce Department engage in that activity which it is charged with regulating? Is your birth certificate on file with the Department of Commerce? If so, then for what reason?


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

The way I look at it is that if I want to be a part of this society, I need to be counted. I'm not doing anything wrong, so I have no need to be paranoid.


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## ihedrick (May 15, 2005)

Then is it okay for local government to enter your posted property because someone thinks there is a problem? Nothing to support their claim; just that they think? Would it be okay for police to knock on your door because I think you may be selling drugs; just because you "look" like the type of person who sells? And they find nothing. There are alot of people who will abuse the systems to harass folks they don't like, and those of us who just want our privacy. How many visits would it take before you were upset?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Bonnie L said:


> I think it's ironic that so many people will appeal to the Constitution to uphold rights, yet insist it has nothing to do with them if it involves a duty.


My constitutional duty to the census involves giving my name, age, occupation, and how many slaves I own. 

You seem surprised that you didn't find a whole mess of people here willing to embrace the government lovingly and agree with you that we have the right to have our property invaded, monitored, surveyed, and photographed by a government which has shown us for 200 or more years that it means us no good will.

I'm glad you've found some work. Now stop trying to justify that work to us.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

booklover said:


> I'm not doing anything wrong, so I have no need to be paranoid.


I'd be surprised if many liberals felt that way when they suspected the Bush administration was listening in to their phone calls.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

..................During the 2000 Census they couldn't contact me . I had a PO box in town and my gate was 400 feet from my front door ! I don't participate in the census because I don't , want too . Just that simple . , fordy


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Privacy is a wonderful thing. It has long been taken for granted as the groundwork has been lain under our noses for it's annihilation.
Old case law bears out clearly what used to be...

"The individual may stand upon his rights as a citizen. He is entitled to carry on his private business in his own way. His _power_ to _contract_ is _unlimited_. He owes no duty to the state or his neighbor to divulge his business, or to open his door to an investigation so far as it may tend to incriminate him. He owes no such duty to the state, since he receives nothing therefrom, beyond the protection of his life and property. His rights are such as existed by the law of the land long antecedent to the organization of the state. 
..... He owes nothing to the public so long as he does not trespass upon their rights." Hale v. Henkel, 201 U.S. 43 (1905)

Of course, that was then, when almost all property was purchased by real money under the gold standard...... before medicare, medicaid and all other manner of entitlement and "welfare". It also preceded paper backed bank mortgages and utility hookup agreements. 

Review the "_unlimited power to contract_" wording in the above referenced court case. Review similar language, insisted to be included in the "US Constitution" by King George, himself, during a visit to the same by Alexander Hamilton to facilitate George the opportunity to tweak that document that was never even lawfully ratified by it's own included prerequisites to that end.

We have been "allowed" the _unlimited power to contract_.

By the small and, often as not, obvious print in just about every agreement we have ever entered into with the state, the banks or the utilities, we have contracted away our right to privacy, absolutely. You agreed to it to gain a benefit somewhere along the line. The patriot types, and others, want to hold on to the illusion of liberty, and bristle whenever someone speaks ill of that long dead horse.

Hence the maxim of law that stems from antiquity, 
"The origin of a thing ought to be looked into".

If you are serious about liberty, quit signing your name to paper so readily as you were taught to in public school. Sever all known ties with banks and utility companies. Quit participating in the corporate, contract and consent-based quasi-governmental schemes of the day and see for real just how fit you are to walk as a free and independent man upon this earth.

Liberty will come soon enough because the tower of economic and social stupidity has about reached its maximum supportable height.
At least there are a few websites, this one included, that give people some idea of how far we will fall and how to somewhat cushion the impact.


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

Forerunner said:


> ...The individual may stand upon his rights as a *citizen*. ... Hale v. Henkel, 201 U.S. 43 (1905)


Quite some jokers, these judicial types. They might invite you into the citizenship (slave) trade at the drop of a hat.

I prefer the wording of organic law in the form of the Articles of Confederation



> IV.
> 
> The better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among the people of the different States in this Union, *the free inhabitants of each of these States, paupers, vagabonds, and fugitives from justice excepted, shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of free citizens in the several States*; and the people of each State shall free ingress and regress to and from any other State, and shall enjoy therein all the privileges of trade and commerce, subject to the same duties, impositions, and restrictions as the inhabitants thereof respectively, provided that such restrictions shall not extend so far as to prevent the removal of property imported into any State, to any other State, of which the owner is an inhabitant; provided also that no imposition, duties or restriction shall be laid by any State, on the property of the United States, or either of them.


In which all I have to prove is
a) I am free (I could be black, white, yellow or chartreuse and still fit this description)
b) not a pauper (I always carry $5 in gold on my person)
c) not a vagabond (One who wanders about idly, who has no certain dwelling)
d) not a fugitive from justice (no wants or warrants outstanding)

Such classification might grant me the same privileges and immunities as "free citizens". 

Question:

If there is a classification of "free citizens" does it not follow that there is an implied classification of "unfree citizens"? Are these the ones whose noses are being counted?


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## julieq (Oct 12, 2008)

Just last week I watched a lady pull up into our neighbor's driveway, walk around the fence, across our lawn and up to our house. Then she went back to her car. Didn't notice if she was carrying anything, but at least now I can quit wondering what she was up to!


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

The Articles of the Confederation still apply to those who have kept themselves free of US _citizenship_.
I'd like to find and talk with a few of those rare fellows.

The American republic still stands, but nobody's home. 

The problem lies in the fact that the people have chosen to go live under the US democracy, where the mob is king.


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

Forerunner said:


> The Articles of the Confederation still apply to those who have kept themselves free of US _citizenship_.
> I'd like to find and talk with a few of those rare fellows.
> 
> The American republic still stands, but nobody's home.


Refer to www.pacinlaw.org 

Anyone who thinks the Articles are not still in effect might check the present constitution for the words "perpetual union". A great (un)Civil War was fought over this principle. While the Articles might be declared perpetual the present constitution lacks this key phrase.



Forerunner said:


> The problem lies in the fact that the people have chosen to go live under the US democracy, where the mob is king.


Wil Rogers -
If stupidity got us into this mess why can't it get us out.

All depends on how you choose to live your life. The present crisis has shown that people are simply waiting to receive another yoke in place of the one that has proven to be rotten.


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## cast iron (Oct 4, 2004)

You can fight it all you want, but it is going to happen. There will be an inventory of all buildings on your property and they will be assessed a value to use for tax purposes. By air, or by land they will get this information. Eventually they will scan for personal property that you should have been paying taxes on (in some state), tractors, atv's, bicycles etc. And is this your dog right here? Well then why is it not recorded with the county and why does it not have the proper license? Oh and by the way, does your insurance company know you have a dog that is on the dangerous dog list? Pitbull, Doberman, insert supposed dangerous dog here... 

Welcome to the future. The slippery slope was greased long ago...


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Costa Rica.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

You can ask your questions from the outboard side of the no trespass sign.


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

Ernie said:


> I'm glad you've found some work. Now stop trying to justify that work to us.


Finally have some time to reply! Not trying to justify the job (tho is is great to earn some money), but was trying to answer what I thought to be questions. 

Learned something new in the training last week. For this round of the census, the address verification, you can tell the worker to go away. We are supposed to leave when asked to. Or a locked gate that can't be gotten around, that is, fencing on both sides. 

Large dangerous dogs would work, too. 

I found out that my house is not on the list. It is tempting to do nothing about it.


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## ACountryMomma (Aug 10, 2008)

I wonder why they are coming all the way up to people's doors? A little over a week ago we had a strange vehicle pull up out by the mail box and the dogs went nuts. Our property is entirely fenced with gates at the drive & the front walk, but we do not have any "no trespassing" signs. 

Anyhow - I went out to find out if the driver was lost and discovered she had a little GPS hand held thing and she explained she was working for the census getting up to date locates on houses in the area. At no time did she mention needing to come up to the house - which is probably 125 feet or so back from the road. We chatted a bit and she went on her way.

I did find it a little strange that she didn't ask the usual census questions - but after reading some of the threads I see that those will likely come later. Our address is not properly plotted on things like yahoo maps and google Earth - we always show up on the wrong side of the creek & about .75 mile from our actual location. In the past an ambulance and on another occasion a sheriff's deputy have arrived at our home mistaking the address for one of the 2 other houses on down our road & we had to point them both in the right direction... But our address is very clearly posted on our mail box. I guess they put a lot of faith in their computer directions!

Is there somewhere to find the questions they will want us to answer for the census? I'd like to know what they are wanting to know


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

Ernie said:


> I'd be surprised if many liberals felt that way when they suspected the Bush administration was listening in to their phone calls.


Well, I don't really care because I don't feel a need to hide my goings-on. I also answer the census questions because I know how important they are to people like me who rely on statistics for our jobs.

However, I'm sure that you must be holing up in your bunker because you know "they" are "tracking" your every move.


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

ACountryMomma said:


> Anyhow - I went out to find out if the driver was lost and discovered she had a little GPS hand held thing and she explained she was working for the census getting up to date locates on houses in the area. At no time did she mention needing to come up to the house - which is probably 125 feet or so back from the road. We chatted a bit and she went on her way.


She was probably using common sense. I don't think the GPS thing is all that accurate, so I've been doing the mapspot wherever I talk to someone or at the gate. If we can see the house from a locked gate, we're supposed to do the mapspot there. I put a mapspot at a barn today because that's where the lady was. The house was a little farther up, but I figured I was close enough. It seems silly to me to talk to someone, then go to the house & face the door. [prophead]

I'm going to feel silly enough when I have to go back to houses because I make an error. 


I


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## Saffron (May 24, 2006)

ok - we are required to answer certain parts of the census - where EXACTLY are we required to be GPS'ed?


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

Saffron said:


> ok - we are required to answer certain parts of the census - where EXACTLY are we required to be GPS'ed?


It sure isn't in the Constitution, where we find the authorization for the Census. I think (but I'm not sure) that the government considers this a part of the mission of counting, to make it more modern. 

But because of the way it's done - the GPS mapspot being more important than the mailing address - I turned in an official question form about it. It just doesn't make sense. No reply yet, which doesn't surprise me. 

At least 1 person I know is going to start calling his reps, etc to find out why. I asked him to keep me informed on this. 

BTW - because of attacks on census workers, we no longer go around locked gates. What a relief! But I do miss the nice walks. 

eta - a locked gate doesn't have to be a gate, tho I suppose some workers might interpret it differently. One driveway today had a "gate" of binder twine. I stopped right there.


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## cowboy joe (Sep 14, 2003)

Like they say "don't hate the player, hate the game". Please remember that most of the folks knocking on your door are just trying to earn a living in a tough economic time.

Had our visit last weekend from a nice lady. She verified the address, took a GPS reading, and asked if it was a single family home...then she said thank you and left. As the address is on the outside of the house and can be seen from the road, the lat/long could have been taken at the road or googled, and the type of residence is on file with the Town, my verification didn't do anything other than make her job easier and perhaps a bit more pleasant. Guess I've learned to pick my battles...this one wasn't worth the effort as the information would have been obtained even if I wasn't home.


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## Chuck (Oct 27, 2003)

In Panama, if someone enters your property without your permission, you may kill them.


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## rickd203 (Sep 11, 2005)

They were at my house last week. She said they would be back in a few months to do a detailed census.That's good because I'm not going to be living here when she comes back.


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## Saffron (May 24, 2006)

Chuck said:


> In Panama, if someone enters your property without your permission, you may kill them.




Chuck, sometimes I think I love you:gromit::kissy:


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## casusbelli (Jan 6, 2009)

Wolfswalksoftly-
I share your convictions, but have to break your bubble: there is no such thing as private property in the US anymore. Just stop paying your property taxes and see what happens. The right to tax property is the government's de facto claim that they are the real owners. 
s


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

I know I am a dumb little hillbilly, but I thought ONE of the uses for the census was to aportion services to areas by population/need. IE: schools,hospitals,elder programs and such that receive government funding(you know,our tax dollars returned to us?) I am not splitting hairs here between the Federal and State government because the census information is available to both. I know our system is broken but the fewer folks that get counted the less accurately long term planing for the developing needs(school age children etc) can be done..then when these things are not in place for YOUR needs who will you blame? I feel that unless I can transport myself into the unreachable heart of a virgin fastness where I go it totally without outside support I must participate to the extent of the known laws where I abide. I have 3 choices; participate,move or work for change. I did read on the no tresspassing sign shown that "yup come on in if it will save my ass or property"...help me but don't bother me. If you have chosen to be seperate then BE seperate. I hate to mention this here but our govenment is not "them" it is "us" and even if you personally did not vote "them" in a majority of "us" did(well not ME but you get my drift)..those people we have elevated to SERVE us did not drop from the sky or crawl out from under a rock(regardless of personal opinions) they were among us and can be returned there.


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

cowboy joe said:


> Like they say "don't hate the player, hate the game". Please remember that most of the folks knocking on your door are just trying to earn a living in a tough economic time.


Bless your heart. I feel something like a traitor doing the GPS mapspots, but if I don't do it someone else will - & I'd still be broke & jobless. 

Pray for an EMP (or whatever that sunspot event is called) to knock out the satellites. 

I'm glad this isn't Panama, tho - it's bad enough that some people _think_ they have the right to kill anyone on their property.


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## GingerN (Apr 24, 2007)

booklover said:


> Well, I don't really care because I don't feel a need to hide my goings-on. I also answer the census questions because I know how important they are to people like me who rely on statistics for our jobs.
> 
> However, I'm sure that you must be holing up in your bunker because you know "they" are "tracking" your every move.


No, I am not holed up, and I will talk your ear off. HOWEVER, a stranger won't get detailed information on me and mine willingly. I will conform to the law-which is how many people live there, how many over 18 and my occupation (simply because I may turn the tables and try to sell them something, lol)....Other than that, they don't need the details. It does not mean we are hiding anything.

Just because they have a little badge that says they are from so and so does not mean that they really are. Too many nutcases in the world to go spreading the information around like it was nothing. It is too easy for information to get used by the wrong people or the wrong purpose to put it out there for consumption. Don't think that if they don't have your social security number that it is not easily accessible. It is creepy and stupid how easily that can obtained by the most innocuous of people.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

cowboy joe said:


> Like they say "don't hate the player, hate the game". Please remember that most of the folks knocking on your door are just trying to earn a living in a tough economic time.


The guys doing the illegal wiretapping were just earning a living in a tough economic time. The guys torturing prisoners in Gitmo are just earning a living in a tough economic time. Lon Horiuchi was just earning a living in a tough economic time.

Sorry, Cowboy. I have no sympathy for government stooges, even temporary ones. The Nuremberg Defense has already proven false in many different courts of law. That's why I quite working for the government back in 2002 when I finally saw the writing on the wall.


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

bee said:


> I know I am a dumb little hillbilly, but I thought ONE of the uses for the census was to aportion services to areas by population/need. IE: schools,hospitals,elder programs and such that receive government funding(you know,our tax dollars returned to us?)


You've got it right. And libraries, as well. If you don't want to be counted, don't use your public library (or any public service such as parks, schools, etc). You haven't been included in our budgets and are, therefore, stealing services.

All those statistics are also used any time we (public services) try to get additional monies to offer special programs and such. (Grants, sponsorships, fundraisers, for example.)


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## cowboy joe (Sep 14, 2003)

Ernie said:


> The guys doing the illegal wiretapping were just earning a living in a tough economic time. The guys torturing prisoners in Gitmo are just earning a living in a tough economic time. Lon Horiuchi was just earning a living in a tough economic time.
> 
> Sorry, Cowboy. I have no sympathy for government stooges, even temporary ones. The Nuremberg Defense has already proven false in many different courts of law. That's why I quite working for the government back in 2002 when I finally saw the writing on the wall.


Point well taken Ernie but I can't blame everyone for a few bad seeds. Some areas of the government serve the public well and are necessary. Public schools and universities are a fine example of that, albeit at the state level. Census data is used "to determine the allocation of federal funding for education programs in states and communities." 

That said, other government operations, such as the ones you referenced, were and are atrocities. I can't say that I agree that these are on the same level as a temporary worker gathering census information.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

palani said:


> Is privacy is a right?
> 
> This part seems to say it is:
> The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated"
> ...


I'll leave the other questions to others to answer.:walk:


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

jamala said:


> We had a vistor to the farm today. He was from the census group. Said he was just verifing address and marking GPS location of the address. He had this little tiny computer about the size of a calculator and his badges and id's. He said someone else would be by soon with census packs. He was very nice but marking GPS location kinda sounded strange shouldn't they know that from 911 addresses. Has anyone else been visited?



My wife trained for an did that job for a short time on this 2010 census 
she decided it wasn't for her.

they want a gps reading from within 10 feet of your front porch or entrance preferably 

why send around a production group first , then a quality control group and then finally next year send out the letters then if you don't send back your questionare form they will send somone out to talk withyou and get the answers asked on the form.

to answer the why it helps to know who and what benifits from the cencus numbers , politicians redraw thier districts based on these numbers , schools recive funding based on these numbers and municipalities get aid based on these numbers. you , i and apparently at least the cencus burue know that pople somtimes live in things, places that are not legal dwellings , like that trailer home in back of your barn that your cusin lives in and so on there are rooms rented , without legal addresses , and just al sorts of places that people live that you can't find on the 911 map or with the phone utility or even have mail delivery or an address with the post office.

but schools politicians and municipalities want to know of the people who live there.

each school aged child living in a school district is good for state and fedral education funding weather they arrend or not 


The Census people do NOT care if you are illegaly living in a dwelling, if you are here illegaly , or what you actualy do just so long as you fill out thier form and return it. 
they don't care about much other than everything they can possably verify as a dwelling fills out a census form.

the census specificaly will not hire law enforcment , or imigration officers they want to know the numbers and do it in the least obtusive way possable 
when data is compiled to protect indiviguals they only give any exact numbers out meaning the local municipality gets a average persond per house and so forth but they don't send any raw data out to the town saying bob has 22 people living in a 4 bed house at 1234 west 8th street. 


so after answering the who and the what we can see the why politicians , municipalities , schools all want the best numbers that favor them the way the cencus is gathering the numbers was what they cam up with so that all the groups who get money from the outcomes of the numbers feel that they where treated fairly.


my wife did not feel comfortable going to peoples doors , in the area she was assinged she had been told all along she would be in her own community she would have been fine with any assingment in our county.then they assinged her to the city 30 miles away in the next county where she is not comfortable


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the way they see it right or wrong they feel that you are secure in your papers they do not ask to see them , they don't even care waht your name is just that the address they have is correct so that they can send out the form next year you may answer that form any way you want , most will be honest. but the cencus department would like to let you know that if another goverment agency did get their raw data it would be in breach of fedral law making it inadmisable to use to convict you , they spent a lot of time trying to get accross to the enumerators (people you see checking addreses and taking info) that this data is not to be used to go after anyone for anything only that they want good data and to ensure people that it is only to collect data. yes this is thinking like a lawyer and not a parinoid citizen. but really the cencus people are barly organized enought to get people to check addresses with a reasonable level of accuracy.
and they just want there form filled out.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> just that the address they have is correct so that they can send out the form


Then the GPS is pointless. 

If ALL they are doing is "verifying" a *MAILING* address, they wouldnt need a GPS at all. They would simply ASK what your mailing address is.

That is their cover story. There has to be another reason behind all this effort and expense.


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## Stephen in SOKY (Jun 6, 2006)

Has anyone seen a report of the cost of the GPS mapping versus the cost of the actual census? Two trips to accomplish 1 goal seems stupid even for this administration.


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

FourDeuce said:


> Originally Posted by palani: Is privacy is a right?
> 
> This part seems to say it is:
> The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated"
> ...


I have been told there are around 1,100 rights. A right is property and it might be corporeal or incorporeal. You declare what rights you have. You never let someone else decide those rights and you never let someone else define them for you.

If you cannot recognize it as a right and cannot describe it as such then it does not exist.


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## OldGrouch (Jan 23, 2008)

Not to hijack this thread... but since this thread includes discussion about GPS and the Census Bureau...

Do you have a GPS unit connected to your laptop? If so... you might want to check out http://roadnav.sourceforge.net/. RoadNav is a Road Map program but unlike some of the other, very good, Road Map programs available Roadnav is free. Reading through the RoadNav web pages I found a note from the programmer saying that even though there have been no new releases for almost a year a new update is currently in development. I have found that the current version works very well.

RoadNav uses map data that is available free at www.census.gov. 

Even though it looks like the map data available for my area is from the 2000 Census... it is so accurate it even shows my neighbors very long (over 1/4 mile) private driveway....

--Dwight


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## rhinert (May 3, 2009)

Mom_of_Four said:


> Here's a question - is answering the census questions mandatory?



The past two census, I've instructed the census workers to get the hell off my property. The two that I have encountered were smart enough to leave.

I would have been more than happy to comply with a legitimate government. Unfortunately, I have not seen same in my lifetime.


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

Stephen in SOKY said:


> Has anyone seen a report of the cost of the GPS mapping versus the cost of the actual census? Two trips to accomplish 1 goal seems stupid even for this administration.


Yes, it does seem silly, not to mention a waste of money (except for my paycheck :happy, but remember that this program - the GPS mapspotting - was put into effect during the LAST administration. There has simply not been enough time for Obama's admin to plan, procure the hand held computers, & do all the mapping in just a few months. 

This could have been done all at once during the 2010 census, but then it would have taken until 2020 to find out if it worked. I think government workers tend to be impatient, & therefore inefficient.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

If this dissolves into 'this admin' vs "earlier admin" it will be closed.

Angie


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Then the GPS is pointless.
> 
> If ALL they are doing is "verifying" a *MAILING* address, they wouldnt need a GPS at all. They would simply ASK what your mailing address is.
> 
> That is their cover story. There has to be another reason behind all this effort and expense.


Yep. This is a topic of conversation when census workers get together. We still do not know the real reason. If we're finding the houses now - even the ones that aren't listed - then surely they could be found next year at less cost. 

The majority of the addresses we find are already in our hand held computer & are correct. In the hundreds I have "verified" I think I have added only 3 or 4 new construction that weren't listed. 

Odd thing - our crew leader started out very laid back. Now it's "hurry hurry - got to get this done yesterday!" Why?


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## Janis Sauncy (Apr 11, 2006)

Census Guy was here a few days ago.

I happened to notice him standing _outside_ my gate punching info into his GPS. He showed no inclination to cross the gate onto my property.

I went out to see if he needed to ask me any questions. He only had two: were there any other residences on my property and did I know where a specific address was because he couldn't find it and the other neighbors he had asked couldn't help him.

I, too, was unfamiliar with it but that might have been why he had asked if there were any other residences on my property.

Anyway, no fuss, no muss.

Janis


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

Janis Sauncy said:


> I, too, was unfamiliar with it but that might have been why he had asked if there were any other residences on my property.
> 
> Anyway, no fuss, no muss.
> 
> Janis


That's a standard question we're supposed to ask. They want to know about basement apartments, other houses on the property, etc. 

I keep forgetting to ask. Fortunately, most people aren't home so it doesn't matter.


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

If you don't get counted, it could mean losing representation in Congress. The House is based on population figures. In Iowa the districts for state representatives are drawn based on census figures. 

As a geneaology nut I really appreciate census information about my ancestors. Census information is not released for 50 years. When the next census is taken the 1940 census will become available to anyone interested.

Beyond being counted I'm not sure it is required by law to provide additional information. In 1990 we got a longer form than we did in 2000. Questions I didn't want to answer, I didn't and never heard anything further about it.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I didn't get censused in 2000...

Finding my house is an adventure, for the adventuresome... approaching, if one has seen the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, or any of it's variants, one contemplates turning around and leaving... unless specifically invited. A decade ago, I had some very voodooish dolls up and down my auxiliary driveway (halloween was the week before)... I left em up... amazing how many people turned around and wouldn't go past a particularly gruesome tortured doll.

Part of my OPSEC (operational security) during a shtf, or post shtf, is to replace the voodoo dolls, with some strategically placed animal bones, and reddish paint, inside old clothes... hanging from trees. Nothing says welcome like bodies hanging in trees....


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

texican said:


> I didn't get censused in 2000...


I've seen several of your posts mentioning that you use your public library a lot (and even have a family member that works there, I think?). Yet, you won't let yourself be counted. How can you justify using a public service that SPECIFICALLY is linked to the census population count for funding if you refuse to be counted? You do realize that you are stealing services from legitimate patrons.


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## Cheryl in SD (Apr 22, 2005)

Booklover, funding for public libraries depends on the library. Our libraries are supported by city funds and are not tied to the census in any way. 

Our neighbor stopped here, we were already in the computer. Last time I filled our the basic required information on the long form and they never bothered us. For us that is. We live in a vacation area, every few months ffor years they would send someone out to ask if people were living in the cabins near us. It got annoying. It also made me realize that if you don't tell them that x number of people live in your house, don't assume your neighbor won't give your information.


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

Cheryl in SD said:


> Booklover, funding for public libraries depends on the library. Our libraries are supported by city funds and are not tied to the census in any way.


Perhaps you don't understand how *public* libraries are funded in the US. The public funding is based on population count. Yes... the city/county/township funds public libraries from taxes, but the multiplier is based on census population. I know this very well - in the library I work, I coordinate this information and am working with other libraries around the country. Public libraries are funded by the public and the money that comes in is based on the most recent census (which can be frustrating because right now the numbers are so outdated). It's actually just common sense to point out the obvious... how else, other that population would a public library know how much money it needs to serve the public (the number of people in the served area)? Or firefighters or police or public school teachers or public works or... It's not rocket science. The public services know only what to budget to serve the people by the numbers which are obtained from the census. To not be counted means that you've robbed the system if you've used a public service.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

I got 1 about 10 years ago, it was the long form.

The lady who delivered it was incredibly rude. I thought she was lost & went out to offer to help. She gave the form, & I said no thanks & tried to give it back.
She then read me the riot act about how she could sick law enforcement & maybe even the fed on me, & what the penalties are for not answering every question. So I said okay, I will answer it.

I did some research on the internet & found the reason the census started was for politicians to figure out how many voters they have in a given district.

I only answered how many people lived in the house & what their ages were/are.

A lot of the questions just went to far. Like what is your occupation, how much money do you make?, do you have livestock? how many vehicles do you own?
It just went on & on.

It does say on the form all questions must be answered under penalty of law, & you must use a blue or black pen.

So after answering the number of people that live here & ages, I answered a lot of questions N/A. Or wrote the answer out illegebally.Last I heard it isn't a crime if you can't spell or write.

She also told me if I don't give the info required they would ask the neighbors.
It was all I could do not to tell her I don't live around a bunch of narks, & what movie about Hitler did she admire most?

I think there's more to this gps tracking than they are letting onto & it ain't good


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## Cheryl in SD (Apr 22, 2005)

booklover, I won't argue with you about your library or even most libraries, but I did work in two libraries and as I said, it depends on the library. One did use census data to charge the county for county residents, this is probably a model such as you are used to and could very well be the model for the majority of larger public libraries. However, I also worked in a smaller town public library that is strictly a town library and is funded by donations from the town (the building & utilities), private donations and fund raisers. Our local library is funded by city taxes and that is just what the city decides it is able to afford and pays for the rent and utilities, donations and it was endowed years ago by a leading family. These are still public libraries and are very well run, just not the size of the larger area libraries and are being supported locally in different ways. (Actually, our most local village public library is in our community church and gets no tax money at all, but is available for anyone in the community to use.) 

Truce?


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

Sorry... no truce.

A public library is funded from the public. If a library's operational budget is from "*donations *from the town (the building & utilities), private donations and fund raisers" then it is not a public library. If there are additional programs that are funded through grants and fundraising, then those numbers are PARTICULARLY based on the areas served (the census number). A public library's operational budget is from taxes. Period. This is all based on census numbers. If someone refuses to be counted, like Texican, and continues to use public libraries, they are thieves.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Cut the thief talk.

If they pay taxes they pay for it. And there are lots that are counted and pay taxes and don't use the library.

Each of us knows what we know, but you are not the absolute last word on how things work everywhere. ie, Cheyl's little town library.

Next post of that thief status and all after, will be deleted.

Angie


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

It tells me a lot when the "public servants", or those who make their living from our taxes, get very angry when we start to withdraw our support. Do I, a beef farmer, get mad at vegetarians? No. That's their free choice. So why is it that those who earn their living from our taxes get so angry when we want to pay less taxes?

The census will be used for some good, I'm sure, but that doesn't outweigh the bad. I, for one, will not contribute to it any further than I am legally required to do, and a good sight less if I can get away with it.


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

AngieM2 said:


> Cut the thief talk.
> 
> If they pay taxes they pay for it. And there are lots that are counted and pay taxes and don't use the library.
> 
> ...


Actually all public libraries work the same way based on the designation as a government entity under IRS tax code based on this publication. You can't call yourself a public library otherwise. This publication is the beginning and end of rules used for all I do for the public library system. I don't think you are understanding how PUBLIC libraries are funded. Otherwise, you, too, would be upset when you cannot get a service from you library because of underfunding and you, too would want everyone in within your serviced area to be counted.

A certain amount of taxes are (city, township, county, etc.) allocated based on the most recent census numbers. The MULTIPLIER is the key and that is what the census determines. When the budgets are set, they use these census numbers to determine the multiplier and that is used until the next census. That multiplier is determined locally and each public library, based on local budget, determines it, but it's still based on the serviceable area's population based on the census. For example, township A might have a multiplier of .004% based on population and township B (which has a higher population) might have a multiplier of .0036% (more people, so each person pays less). The larger population means that it is allocated across a larger population (therefore each person pays less). (I didn't say anything about people paying taxes, btw.) The fewer people that are counted means that the local taxes will be higher for the individual, whether they use the services or not. The issue of served, under-served, and non-served populations is a very important part of library funding and the representation and taxation based upon census numbers is the most central factor of this. You don't want to live somewhere that is calculating that it's servicing 1000 people, but there are actually 2000 people using the services because they decided to not be counted. While all are paying taxes, less is allocated to the library (or any public service) and EVERYONE is underserved.

I'm sorry, but if you do not allow yourself to be counted, then you are skewing the numbers. Plenty of people do not use their library, but it doesn't give anyone the excuse to not be counted and then still use public services. It's one thing to say, "I don't vote, so I don't care to be counted" vs. someone who uses the police department, the fire department, and the library and refuse to be counted. People's actual LIVELIHOODS count on these numbers. Even the salaries of the library directors are based on these numbers (because you can have people who use the library, but do not get a card as a patron). You can delete this post, Angie, because you don't agree and you have the power to censor, but it doesn't change the facts. It matters in all governmental entities because the tax code says it does. I live and breathe that tax code and understand the implications. Am I the last word on tax-exempt governmental entities such as public libraries... I wouldn't have to refer to the tax code almost every day if I were. But if you want to dispute what I am saying, then read the 72 page tax code yourself before writing me off.


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

Ernie said:


> It tells me a lot when the "public servants", or those who make their living from our taxes, get very angry when we start to withdraw our support. Do I, a beef farmer, get mad at vegetarians? No. That's their free choice. So why is it that those who earn their living from our taxes get so angry when we want to pay less taxes?
> 
> The census will be used for some good, I'm sure, but that doesn't outweigh the bad. I, for one, will not contribute to it any further than I am legally required to do, and a good sight less if I can get away with it.


Because not being counted doesn't result in less taxes, it results in paying MORE. Then the actual services you want and need are underfunded because their funding is based on the numbers. (Libraries, Police, Fire, Schools, etc.) You still pay the taxes, but they are not allocated properly.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Bonnie - I need some information please.

Does the census count everyone they can? Do they ask if a person is a land tax payer? or pay income taxes via employment? or sales tax?

I'm thinking if the numbers are getting the number of people using a facility/service and wanting to put the money where the people are using it then if they don't pay taxes and cannot show a tax receipt, then they should not be able to use the facility/services without a fee being collected for membership.

IE. the Huntsville Public Library is good for Madison Co. AL people with an address within Madison County. If someone from Limestone, Jackson or Morgan County wants to have a Madison County Library card, they have to pay a fee as they don't pay taxes into Madison County.

So, if a person does not pay taxes, they should not be counted and if they cannot show the tax receipts, they'd have to pay a fee for the use of a Public facility or Service.

Sounds logical to me.

Angie


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## Cheryl in SD (Apr 22, 2005)

Thank you for that IRS document. I found pages 29 & 30 to be particularly informative.


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

Cheryl in SD said:


> Thank you for that IRS document. I found pages 29 & 30 to be particularly informative.


Yes, those are the key pages for public libraries.


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## booklover (Jan 22, 2007)

AngieM2 said:


> Bonnie - I need some information please.
> 
> Does the census count everyone they can? Do they ask if a person is a land tax payer? or pay income taxes via employment? or sales tax?
> 
> ...


Although I'm not Bonnie, I will respond to say that this is exactly how it works most places (some areas have outside funding to address this issue). You have to be a resident of the area served to have use of most library services. That doesn't necessarily mean you pay taxes. Renters for example will have access, but not pay taxes (their landlords do, though even if they reside elsewhere). People on social security will have access, but not pay taxes. Children will have access, but not pay taxes. Outside of that area served, if an adult (or family or senior citizen even) wants to use the library, they pay to get a Public Library Access Card. The amount that is calculated for tax purposes takes all of these factors into consideration for fund allocation which is why it's so important to accurately report your census information. Census information and taxation are not mutually exclusive for public works.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

booklover said:


> I've seen several of your posts mentioning that you use your public library a lot (and even have a family member that works there, I think?). Yet, you won't let yourself be counted. How can you justify using a public service that SPECIFICALLY is linked to the census population count for funding if you refuse to be counted? You do realize that you are stealing services from legitimate patrons.


Our local library, as well as fire, police, roads, schools, etc., know very well where I live (at least the mail lady [fourth cousin] knows), and I have the privelege of paying around 20% of my yearly income to the local taxing authorities. I'm not aware of any Federal grants for our local services. The county I live in has billions in tax base... the oil/gas companies alone pay hundreds of millions in tax revenue to the schools and county.

Do you pay property taxes? Is it ~20% of your income? I totally dislike Texas taxing law... Deadbeats who live in apartments pay nothing... I know two doctors that live in town, in an apartment, and make in the mid six figures... and pay nothing in local taxes... where I'm lucky to hit 5 figures and pay royally. See, I own real property... hard to hide a pine plantation, lakes, hay meadows, etc. Oh, I also pay my fair share of library fines...

As far the Feds, I didn't avoid them... I didn't hide in the swamp when the census taker showed up... No one ever came! So, it's not like I didn't allow myself to be counted... apparently no one was interested in driving (or depending upon the weather, walking the last mile or so down to my house... when it rains, sometimes getting to my place is a high clearance 4wd adventure ) down and censusing me.

As far as the genealogy aspect, I'll leave a more detailed record of my family history, than any census could reveal...

As far as the next census is concerned... what's the point... the Socialist in charge plans on counting illegals, which is going to skewer the numbers in his favor. If there were any justice in this country, they'd be counted, and then very nicely escorted out of the country.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Ah, I'm a thief!!! In the fall, when I hand over enough money to live on for a year, to two school districts, and to the county, I'll tell the clerks that I'm stealing from them, when I hand over the checks.

I don't know about the paradise you're from, booklover, but hereabouts, censused or not, the local tax assessor knows every soul in the county... at least those that own property. Our local community library, gets it's funds directly from county tax revenue. Our local community college also get's it's funds directly from the tax revenue. The residents of this county have the luxury and privelege of having separate itemized charges for all our services... I pay college taxes, and college library taxes, each and every year, as well as a rural fire service, a groundwater conservation service, and lucky me, I get to pay some far off distant school district's upkeep costs too (seems those school districts are poorer than mine, so I get to pay for their's too).

So, you see, even though I did not get counted in the last census, I am counted each year on the tax roles. And as local services are paid for by local taxes, and I pay taxes, I have a sincere problem with being called a thief. Now, if I were a homeless bum, a turnip, or a welfare cheat, and if I didn't get censused, I could see myself being a cheat, or a thief, if you will... as I'd be receiving benefits without providing for documentation for representation.

The entire federal apparatus could disappear tomorrow, but as long as this county survived, they'd provide me with a tax bill for my local services. Census or not, you can't escape the tax man, if you own real estate. Don't pay your property taxes and you'll find yourself without any property to tax... they auction off property on the courthouse steps, on a regular basis.

Basically, you're wrong.


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## Colorado (Aug 19, 2005)

Texican, 
those in apts pay rent and the land lord pays the taxes. I do pay property taxes It is based on the value of the property. Here library is support with the property taxes. Certain mill levy goes for that. So much for schools. You live in apt and the owner rents with that cost in mind and they do really pay their share. They voted in a cemetary mill levy for this local cemetary. I have no use of it but still have to pay taxes on it. To be buried there you buy a lot  and pay open a d close. but as paid taxes on it suppose to be cheaper lot. Some gripe about paying taxes for the library as don't use. 

Only census that gets taken here is Fed. Ever area is different. They counted the guys living under the bridges I understand. My form has came in the mail .


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## Colorado (Aug 19, 2005)

Right on Texican

They just jumped the value of my place $58,000. They re-value ever 2 years. Developers here pay like $100,000 an acre so us with few acres get hit on taxes good. years ago as your house got old the taxes went down. Sure do not now. I have made no improvement what so ever. That is a big amount to add to the value I already had.


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## Cheryl in SD (Apr 22, 2005)

OK, now I am scared. The census supervisor was just here and lied to me. She didn't even sound like she believed it herself. I asked her "Why do you need a gps coordinate for my house?" She said, "So we can get more money." I pointed out the county has exact tax information including dwellings, available under the freedom of information act. She started hemming & hawing around & punching notes into her little device like mad. She said it wasn't a big deal, I could get it off goggle, I said, then why don't the feds do that. I asked what legal authority to gps did the census department have, she said the Constitution. At which point I asked her to leave. I know she is just a worker and until she got that antsy and flat out lied (the Constitution guarantees me the right to be secure in m y person & papers and I am feeling VERY insecure right now!) I wasn't really worried about the gps thing, but now I am scared silly. Something inside me is screaming DANGER and is real close to RUN. 

In the meantime I called my Governor, my Senators, & my Congresswoman & asked them to seriously think about this and decide if they are really doing all they can to protect my privacy and my and my children's freedom.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Let me put it this way, Cheryl ... and I hope I don't offend anyone.

You're not going to get answers by questioning the grunts. Do you REALLY think they found a lot of deep-thinking, freedom-loving, Constitutional scholars sitting around unemployed willing to do this?


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## dixienc (Apr 11, 2008)

booklover said:


> Actually all public libraries work the same way based on the designation as a government entity under IRS tax code based on this publication. You can't call yourself a public library otherwise. This publication is the beginning and end of rules used for all I do for the public library system. I don't think you are understanding how PUBLIC libraries are funded. Otherwise, you, too, would be upset when you cannot get a service from you library because of underfunding and you, too would want everyone in within your serviced area to be counted.
> 
> A certain amount of taxes are (city, township, county, etc.) allocated based on the most recent census numbers. The MULTIPLIER is the key and that is what the census determines. When the budgets are set, they use these census numbers to determine the multiplier and that is used until the next census. That multiplier is determined locally and each public library, based on local budget, determines it, but it's still based on the serviceable area's population based on the census. For example, township A might have a multiplier of .004% based on population and township B (which has a higher population) might have a multiplier of .0036% (more people, so each person pays less). The larger population means that it is allocated across a larger population (therefore each person pays less). (I didn't say anything about people paying taxes, btw.) The fewer people that are counted means that the local taxes will be higher for the individual, whether they use the services or not. The issue of served, under-served, and non-served populations is a very important part of library funding and the representation and taxation based upon census numbers is the most central factor of this. You don't want to live somewhere that is calculating that it's servicing 1000 people, but there are actually 2000 people using the services because they decided to not be counted. While all are paying taxes, less is allocated to the library (or any public service) and EVERYONE is underserved.
> 
> I'm sorry, but if you do not allow yourself to be counted, then you are skewing the numbers. Plenty of people do not use their library, but it doesn't give anyone the excuse to not be counted and then still use public services. It's one thing to say, "I don't vote, so I don't care to be counted" vs. someone who uses the police department, the fire department, and the library and refuse to be counted. People's actual LIVELIHOODS count on these numbers. Even the salaries of the library directors are based on these numbers (because you can have people who use the library, but do not get a card as a patron). You can delete this post, Angie, because you don't agree and you have the power to censor, but it doesn't change the facts. It matters in all governmental entities because the tax code says it does. I live and breathe that tax code and understand the implications. Am I the last word on tax-exempt governmental entities such as public libraries... I wouldn't have to refer to the tax code almost every day if I were. But if you want to dispute what I am saying, then read the 72 page tax code yourself before writing me off.


From your own argument, you are saying that those citizens, who live entirely on government benefits and handouts that don't pay taxes, are not supporting the very libraries they are using. What does this say about them?


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## Cheryl in SD (Apr 22, 2005)

Thank you, Ernie. You just made me laugh and that helped. Very good point.


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## dixienc (Apr 11, 2008)

texican said:


> Our local library, as well as fire, police, roads, schools, etc., know very well where I live (at least the mail lady [fourth cousin] knows), and I have the privelege of paying around 20% of my yearly income to the local taxing authorities. I'm not aware of any Federal grants for our local services. The county I live in has billions in tax base... the oil/gas companies alone pay hundreds of millions in tax revenue to the schools and county.
> 
> Do you pay property taxes? Is it ~20% of your income? I totally dislike Texas taxing law... Deadbeats who live in apartments pay nothing... I know two doctors that live in town, in an apartment, and make in the mid six figures... and pay nothing in local taxes... where I'm lucky to hit 5 figures and pay royally. See, I own real property... hard to hide a pine plantation, lakes, hay meadows, etc. Oh, I also pay my fair share of library fines...
> 
> ...


Your not the only one who wasn't counted. We lived in a house we owned in MEmphis, TN in 2000, and never got the census forms or anyone to the door to ask questions. And Memphis is a huge place with alot of people but we lived in a low to middle income area, maybe thats why?


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## Azrael (Jun 2, 2008)

How many here have ever heard of GIS (Geographic Information System)? Here is a link to a local one in Tippecanoe County Indiana which is a very good site. As you can see by poking around the GIS site pulls together a LOT of info for the county, everything from where water/sewer runs to the parcel boundaries to who owns the parcel, what the tax assessment is on the property, improvements on the property, roads, subdivisions, school districts, etc, etc, etc. These GIS systems rely on GPS for mapping accuracy. 

My personal opinion is that GIS is the reason for taking GPS coordinates of each home and coordinating all this data together. NO longer do you have to go to the courthouse and go from office to ffice before you have all the info you need because they are not coordinated together in one spot. No longer do planning offices have to rely on outdated maps for where utilities etc run. Yeah!

Here is a good link about GIS, GPS, and census taking from a company in the UK LINK

If you google GPS GIS CENSUS you will get several websites that discuss linking these together. Please note, one of the links is to a white paper written by the UN in 2004, please don't take the thread down the path of the UN being evil so we have ot oppose this, blah, blah, blah.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Colorado said:


> Texican,
> those in apts pay rent and the land lord pays the taxes. I do pay property taxes It is based on the value of the property. Here library is support with the property taxes. Certain mill levy goes for that. So much for schools. You live in apt and the owner rents with that cost in mind and they do really pay their share. They voted in a cemetary mill levy for this local cemetary. I have no use of it but still have to pay taxes on it. To be buried there you buy a lot and pay open a d close. but as paid taxes on it suppose to be cheaper lot. Some gripe about paying taxes for the library as don't use.


I'm sure landlords pay some form of property taxes... if they're taxes were as high as homeowners (of similar square footage), I can't imagine them ever making a profit.

I have heard of these expensive cemetery plots... my GF says they cost a fortune. Out here in flyover country, they're free. I have my choice of half a dozen cemeteries with family members in it... all I need do is put a marker where I'd like to be, and inform the Cemetery secretary. We have graveyard workings once a year, and donate whatever we can so that someone will come and mow all summer. Always remembered the time one of my Aunts went to a 'working' thinkin it was going to be a genteel affair, with fried chicken and other comfort picnic potluck foods. Got there, and they had pulpwood trucks, chainsaws, and shovels.... aack! She never went back to that one...


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

casusbelli said:


> Wolfswalksoftly-
> I share your convictions, but have to break your bubble: there is no such thing as private property in the US anymore. Just stop paying your property taxes and see what happens. The right to tax property is the government's de facto claim that they are the real owners.
> s


Point taken, but on the other hand, Just because the County has an easement on my property 20 feet from the center of the County Road, doesn't mean they own it. I do and can control what happens on my property.


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## cowboy joe (Sep 14, 2003)

Not to hijack...just an FYI regarding GPS:
:TFH::TFH:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,520636,00.html?test=latestnews

According to the article, the current GPS satellites are at risk of failure due to age and may begin to fail as early as 2010. IMHO, this won't be a "now it works, now it doesn't scenario". Rather, there may be interruptions or dead zones until new sats are put up. In the meantime, the Solar Cycle 24 has begun. The cycle is estimated to peak in 2013:

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/05/08/sun-sunspots.html
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=35879

Sun spots are already proven to disrupt satellite communication including GPS. Makes you wonder how useful the GPS info will be over the next few years.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Check out Landview programs. The Minnesota DNR has one on their public site. They already have alot of information about your property. There's even infrared photos.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

dixienc said:


> From your own argument, you are saying that those citizens, who live entirely on government benefits and handouts that don't pay taxes, are not supporting the very libraries they are using. What does this say about them?


The point is, at least they've been 'counted'. They provide nothing to the economy or the country, in the form of supporting services via taxes... but, they have been counted, and some magic entity in far off DC Land will send magic money (paid by taxpayers) to cover the welfaristas use of the libraries.

--------------------------------------------
I wish the Census would make an appointment to come out, if they decide to visit me... It'd be nice to not have a guard dog chew their leg off, or me greet them with a very large something something that Social Democrats want to ban, and I could maybe put the goats up first, so they don't crawl into and on top of their vehicles... could feed the attack roosters, so they don't get bloody ankles... put up the geese, so they don't get their tuckus pinched (my geese are bi-squeezle... they like guys and dolls), and numerous other farm assault animals.


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## ihedrick (May 15, 2005)

I'd let the goats enjoy their new found play gym...


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

Cheryl in SD said:


> I asked what legal authority to gps did the census department have, she said the Constitution. At which point I asked her to leave. I know she is just a worker and until she got that antsy and flat out lied (the Constitution guarantees me the right to be secure in m y person & papers and I am feeling VERY insecure right now!) I wasn't really worried about the gps thing, but now I am scared silly. Something inside me is screaming DANGER and is real close to RUN.
> 
> In the meantime I called my Governor, my Senators, & my Congresswoman & asked them to seriously think about this and decide if they are really doing all they can to protect my privacy and my and my children's freedom.


I wish more people would be making all those phone calls. The census worker was partly correct - the Constitution gives the mandate to count people, but it doesn't say how. The GPS stuff is useless for the purpose that is claimed for it - to help people get census forms next year. 

You should have been given a little piece of paper titled "Your Answers Are Confidential," aka D-31. In the small print it says:

"The approval number for the collection of address information in 2009 is OMB 0607-0809. Send any comments concerning this collection to Paperwork Reduction Project 0607-0809, U.S. Census Bureau, AMSD-3K138, 4600 Silver Hill Road, Washington, DC 20233. Or email your comments to <[email protected]>; use "Paperwork Project 0607-0809" as the subject." 

Now that everyone who reads this (instead of just those how were home when the worker stopped by) now has both the mailing address & the e-mail address, there is no reason not to inundate the Census Bureau with questions about the GPS map spots. 

The right to be "secure in my person & papers" refers to property, not your feelings. We've already lost much of that right due to the latest interpretation of eminent domain. Nobody fussed much then, even tho it is more of a threat to personal property than GPS map spots.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

Trinity3 said:


> .....Or wrote the answer out illegebally.Last I heard it isn't a crime if you can't spell or write.....



Yeah, but it's a requirement to have basic literacy of the English language to be a citizen. So, either learn American or go back Illiteratonia!!

Libraries are good for that!

;-P


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## Cheryl in SD (Apr 22, 2005)

Bonnie L said:


> The right to be "secure in my person & papers" refers to property, not your feelings. We've already lost much of that right due to the latest interpretation of eminent domain. Nobody fussed much then, even tho it is more of a threat to personal property than GPS map spots.


Oh, I fussed about that, too. Even called my State Reps and got them to pass a law in this state that restricts eminent domain. I call & email and do what I can, but it doesn't seem to help. I also call and thank them when they do things right.


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## Montanarchist (Feb 24, 2005)

Bonnie L said:


> Sorry to spoil your fun, but federal employees - which is what census employees are - are allowed to ignore no trespassing signs.
> 
> All census employees take an oath to uphold the Constitution. The census is authorized by Congress. So we are authorized to do our jobs, even though it involves going onto private property.
> 
> If you want that changed, you can talk with your senator.



Forgive me if this has already been brought up, I don't have the time to read all the replies like I usually do.

The constitution authorizes I quote:

"[An] Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct." That's all!



Today, the controlling law for the U.S. Census is Title 13 of the U.S. Code. There is a lot of census data collected in the United States today, such as economic figures, sales and production figures, and agricultural statistics. Still, the head count is the only part of the census that is called for by the Constitution.

Getting a GPS reading of my homestead is a violation of my rights. Yes, I had the same experience as the OP. I walked out armed (as usual with trespassers) I held up 4 fingers and said "FOUR" very clearly. He said he was just getting the gps and i would be mailed the paperwork with the count. I told him he was violating my constitutional rights and to git. He actually had the male reproductive organs to ask my address. Needless to say he didn't get it!

Ask yourself for what possible purpose would the government need to know exactly where my house was. 

You swore to uphold the constitution, the constitution IS the supreme law of the land: 

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."

There is supreme court case law says it's not only a right to resist government actions that are contrary to the constitution but one of the justices went so far to say it's the citizens duty to do such. 

I know times are tight and people might take work without looking too close, but you are wrong.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

BillHoo said:


> Yeah, but it's a requirement to have basic literacy of the English language to be a citizen.*Say's who?  * So, either learn American or go back Illiteratonia!!
> 
> Libraries are good for that! *Libraries bore me, & have for years*
> 
> ;-P


There is a difference between being able to, & not doing it.:walk:


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

Yea, I was coaching my cousin "a Canadian" on what he needed to get US citizenship. Part of the test is a requirement to read a paragraph IN ENGLISH to the test administrator and to write a few sentences IN ENGLISH.

I told him he had to stop punctuating his phrases with "aye", or they might not let him in!

He's annoyed that I ambushed him with flashcards to the 100 Citizenship test questions for several weeks.

He argued, "How the heck do the latinos who barely speak English pass all these questions?" I told him "I dunno, but you need to learn all about our history!"

We went through the Revolution, The Constitution, the whiskey rebellion, several wars and amendments, etc. covered in the 100 test questions. Honestly, I'd say most kids born and educated here propably could not answer many of these questions.

On test day, they only gave him 3 questions to answer on the test!

-----------------
If you can read this, thank your teacher.
If you can read this in English, thank a veteran.
Â¡Si usted lee esto en espaÃ±ol, dÃ© gracias yor congresista! (TRANSLATION: If you can read this in Spanish, thank your Congressman!)


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

BillHoo said:


> Yea, I was coaching my cousin "a Canadian" on what he needed to get US citizenship. Part of the test is a requirement to read a paragraph IN ENGLISH to the test administrator and to write a few sentences IN ENGLISH.
> 
> I told him he had to stop punctuating his phrases with "aye", or they might not let him in!
> 
> ...


I thought the topic of this was about being visited by census workers taking gps co-ordinates of dwellings, & the census in general.
If I'm not mistaken they are counting citizens & illegals,well the ones they can find anyways.
I was just trying to offer to others the way I got out of answering questions they have no legal right to ask,without getting overtly hassled. It does state under penalty of law you must answer. It just didn't say how 

By the way I was born in this country,from legal citizens.


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