# Flint Water not a crisis



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I wouldn't bother getting into a discussion about a local problem on a national forum, but since Clinton, Sanders and Obama have mentioned it, I felt I should help shed some light on this mostly political issue.

A few years ago, after elected city officials ran several cities into insolvency, State law requires the Gov. to appoint an emergency manager to try to save the cities. By no coincidence, these failing cities have long histories of Democrat rule and an unelected Emergency Manager, appointed by a White Republican, was hated.

Flint gets its water from Detroit. It is costly. A new pipeline is being built by a private company, but won't reach Flint for 6 months.

The elected Flint City Council voted to leave Detroit Water and sign up with this new company. Flint let Detroit know they intended to leave. Detroit wouldn't say what they would be charging, perhaps huge increases, because they were upset over the loss of this contract. Rather than wait and see what those increases would be, the elected City Council with the Emergency Manager agreed to use their backup supply until the new pipeline was ready. The backup is the Flint River. 

New employees were hired to operate this system, in their existing water treatment plant. At first there were problems. Too much chemical used to kill bacteria. Eventually, it was producing safe, clean water.

Most folks were happy with their water. But some folks complained, claimed it was brown water, it stank. But when officials checked it, it was just fine. Easy to dismiss the complaints as made up as an expression against the Emergency Manager and the Republican Gov.

EPA checked the tater leaving the plant, found it fine. Michigan DEQ checked the water leaving the plant and found it fine. But complaints about the water were still coming in.

The State bought thousands of water filters as they tried to locate the problem.

 The Detroit water had phosphorous added to the water to coat the insides of old pipes to hold back rust, crud and seal off any lead pipes or copper pipes containing lead solder. Flint hadn't done that. Gradually, the phosphorous began to "melt" into the water, giving it a brown color. It would show up when you first flushed a toilet and then be clear all day. Hard to test for. Still fixable with faucet filters. 

Then an out of state company came in and took water samples. They found high levels of lead in some samples. They had the water run at a drip all night to get higher levels. Lead from copper solder joints inside citizen's homes was leaching into the water. 

The water the city of Flint is supplying is safe. It has always been safe. There is no lead in the water leaving the Water Treatment Plant. There is no lead in the city's network of pipelines. 

Many of Flint's older schools have copper pipes and lead solder. Water lines in the school that do not get used often, show a build up of lead. To correct this would mean replacing all waterlines in the school. There isn't money for that. Filter are now in place and have corrected the problem.

The out of state group that took the samples claim a reading of 7000 parts per billion. Most of their samples were low levels considered safe, with a few around 150 parts per billion. The Flint Health Department has taken samples and has found most water to be in the safe range. A few samples showed elevated lead levels. 

The State has brought in tens of thousands of water filters, filter canisters, test kits and hundreds of truck loads of bottled water. 

A few children were tested for lead levels. Of those tested, a few tested at elevated levels. Many communities in Flint contain multiple lead hazards. Houses that have lead paint. Interior walls, woodwork, ceilings, floors and furniture coated with lead based paint. With no baseline to measure past lead levels, tests done today can only speculate where the exposure came from.

Flint is back on Detroit water. Phosphorous is again added to the water to re-coat the inside of the pipes, sealing off the lead pipes inside many homes. 

There is a ton of info about the whole process, test results, what has been done, what is being done and what will be done. 

The Flint Mayor has asked the State for $1,000,000,000. to work on this water issue. Many are protesting that they cannot be charged a water bill for water they cannot drink. However, they can use the water to bathe, flush and wash. The water bill includes sewer service that has remained unaffected. The water is drinkable with one of the thousands of filters provided for free. 

Yet Director Moore calls for the Gov. imprisonment, Cher calls for a firing squad, while thousands of filters and bottled water are delivered door to door. I haven't seen such yowling for more government help since Katrina.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Hmmm. What does Spike Lee say about it?


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Interesting background. But since it took you almost 1000 words to give a brief overview, I am not at all surprised that the average water customer doesn't understand. When the water doesn't taste good or is discolored, people freak out. 

Who brought in this "out of state company" who was taking samples? How do you know they were letting water drip all night for maximum lead exposure? That would require the cooperation of the water customer who was letting them take samples.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Some citations would be awesome.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

The above isn't an accurate picture of Flint.

The emergency city manager started drawing water from the Flint River as a cost saving measure. The problem is that Flint River water has a different water chemistry than Lake Huron water. Flint River water would have been fine if they added corrosion inhibitors, but they didn't adjust water treatment for the river water.

The pipes are cast iron with leaded joints. That was safe with Lake Huron water, but Flint River water leached lead from the pipe joints. There is not question that the lead content of their water has become dangerously high.

This is a serious disaster that could land some of the republican governor's administration in jail.

A lot of that money isn't for fixing the water system, but to help the youngsters who are suffering from lead poisoning. They'll need long term care and special education.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

MO_cows said:


> Interesting background. But since it took you almost 1000 words to give a brief overview, I am not at all surprised that the average water customer doesn't understand. When the water doesn't taste good or is discolored, people freak out.
> 
> Who brought in this "out of state company" who was taking samples? How do you know they were letting water drip all night for maximum lead exposure? That would require the cooperation of the water customer who was letting them take samples.


Virginia University came in , unannounced and there is some connection with ACLU. Jessie Jackson was there over the weekend. The results of some tests describe letting the water flow very slowly, over night. I assumed that was what I call dripped. Yes, this involved homeowners help. Remember this strong Democrat community in general hates the Republican Gov and chafes at the thought of an Emergency Manager called in to fix years of mismanagement, corruption and out of control spending by their elected Council. www.michigan.gov/flintwater has lots of the test results and answers lots of questions.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Virginia University came in , unannounced and there is some connection with ACLU. Jessie Jackson was there over the weekend. The results of some tests describe letting the water flow very slowly, over night. I assumed that was what I call dripped. Yes, this involved homeowners help. Remember this strong Democrat community in general hates the Republican Gov and chafes at the thought of an Emergency Manager called in to fix years of mismanagement, corruption and out of control spending by their elected Council. www.michigan.gov/flintwater has lots of the test results and answers lots of questions.


Seriously, the lead tests on young people are not up for debate. They've been poisoned by an idiot emergency manager who didn't know what he was doing, and denied chemical tests.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

haypoint said:


> There is no lead in the city's network of pipelines.


Can you verify, that there are _no_ lead water service pipes, being used in Flint, a rather old city? Many news reports say there is and the City acts like they are not sure, or they don't want to say.



> But what residents couldn't see was far worse. About half of the service lines to homes in Flint are made of lead and because the water wasn't properly treated, lead began leaching into the water supply, in addition to the iron.


When I worked in plumbing, I don't recall solder, used on copper pipe, making much contact with water - at all, in the water line.

Otherwise it would seem, lead would be a problem, in most every home in America.


http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/11/health/toxic-tap-water-flint-michigan/


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

plowjockey said:


> Can you verify, that there are _no_ lead water service pipes, being used in Flint, a rather old city? Many news reports say there is and the City acts like they are not sure, or they don't want to say.http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/11/health/toxic-tap-water-flint-michigan/


It's 100 year old cast iron pipe with leaded joints. That's not in dispute. It's frivolous for him to argue otherwise.

I wondered how republicans were going to fight this. I guess total denial is the standard fallback.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Nevada said:


> It's 100 year old cast iron pipe with leaded joints. That's not in dispute. It's frivolous for him to argue otherwise.
> 
> I wondered how republicans were going to fight this. I guess total denial is the standard fallback.


Cast iron pipes that have there joints packed with oakum and lead do not come in contact with water. The amount in a copper sweat fitting would not be measurable.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> Can you verify, that there are _no_ lead water service pipes, being used in Flint, a rather old city? Many news reports say there is and the City acts like they are not sure, or they don't want to say.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





plowjockey said:


> http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/11/health/toxic-tap-water-flint-michigan/




Flint has the same plumbing as most old cities. I didn't think cast iron was lead connected. They haven't used lead in copper plumbing for 40 years. But prior, it was lead solder. Every home with copper pipes, older than 40 years has the same lead problem as Flint. Only difference is Jessie Jackson isn't visiting your city.

I read the article you posted and found some mistakes. 

State didn&#8217;t decide to switch to Flint River. The City Council voted to get on the new pipeline and then decided to use the Flint River, the longtime back up system. The Republican Emergency Manager was in on the decision to use Flint River, with the support of the elected City Council.
Flint River isn&#8217;t highly corrosive. The ph is slightly lower than Detroit water.
The DEQ doesn&#8217;t treat water, they inspect it. The water leaving the Flint Water treatment plant was clear and safe. It isn't a Flint River vs Detroit water issue. 
The lack of phosphorus coating allowed the rust and lead to be released. Please note that most water systems do not coat the pipes with phosphorous or any other chemical. While you can fault the DEQ for not forcing the Flint Water Treatment System to add phosphorus, one must admit that most of the country is drinking water without the protection of phosphorus. Copper pipes with lead solder is common everywhere.
Not true that lead poisoning is irreversible. Nutrition mitigates much of the lead&#8217;s effects.
The number of children tested remains under a few dozen.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Flint has the same plumbing as most old cities. I didn't think cast iron was lead connected. They haven't used lead in copper plumbing for 40 years. But prior, it was lead solder. Every home with copper pipes, older than 40 years has the same lead problem as Flint. Only difference is Jessie Jackson isn't visiting your city.


Upon looking for a reference it appears that there are lead pipes in Flint's system.
_
The documents falsely claim that the city had tested tap water from homes with lead service lines, and therefore the highest lead-poisoning risks; in reality; *the city does not know the locations of lead service lines*, which city officials acknowledged in November 2015_
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> State didnât decide to switch to Flint River. The City Council voted to get on the new pipeline and then decided to use the Flint River, the longtime back up system. The Republican Emergency Manager was in on the decision to use Flint River, with the support of the elected City Council.


The city government was stripped of its power and had no say in any decisions. The emergency manager was a czar with complete power. The emergency manager, and ultimately the governor, take full responsibility.

And don't kid yourself, people could go to jail for this.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

Over half of the residents of Flint are black. This means the water problem in Flint is a vast conspiracy to poison the black folks, not mismanagement by the City Council or the manager or whichever political party you favor. Nobody has the guts to call it like it is because they will be branded a raciest. 

To me this is just a mistake made by politicians that didn't understand the ramifications of their actions. Did any of them ask why Detroit was putting phosphorus in their water? Did any of them even know?

The citizens want 1 billion dollars delivered to their community because they were poisoned. Horsefeathers. 

I bet that a testing of kids in any similar size and age city would find a similar number of them with elevated lead levels. 

They are now putting phosphorus in the water. Problem solved. Next crises.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> The city government was stripped of its power and had no say in any decisions. The emergency manager was a czar with complete power. The emergency manager, and ultimately the governor, take full responsibility.
> 
> And don't kid yourself, people could go to jail for this.


The Flint City Council voted to pull away from Detroit water and go to the new pipeline. Later, when it was realized the new pipeline wasn't ready and Detroit didn't want them back as a customer, the emergency manager met with the city council and lacking any other choices, together, they opened the Flint water treatment plant. The emergency manager could have overturned the City Council's vote, but didn't.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Nimrod said:


> They are now putting phosphorus in the water. Problem solved. Next crises.


Actually, it's not. Over the years the lead had a protective covering develop, but the salts in river water has removed it. Now that the lead is exposed going back to Lake Huron water won;t get rid of the problem. That's why it's developing into a billion dollar problem.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> The Flint City Council voted to pull away from Detroit water and go to the new pipeline. Later, when it was realized the new pipeline wasn't ready and Detroit didn't want them back as a customer, the emergency manager met with the city council and lacking any other choices, together, they opened the Flint water treatment plant. The emergency manager could have overturned the City Council's vote, but didn't.


No shirking here. The emergency manager was in charge.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Sounds like the people they hired to bring the water treatment plant back into service didn't really know their stuff.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Nimrod said:


> I bet that a testing of kids in any similar size and age city would find a similar number of them with elevated lead levels.


Nonsense. Do you have anything to back that up?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MO_cows said:


> Sounds like the people they hired to bring the water treatment plant back into service didn't really know their stuff.


That's been a problem since the early 1990s. Regulations changed so that a PE didn't have to be in charge of processing plants. The theory was that the workers had been doing their jobs for 20 years, so they didn't need some snot-nosed college kid telling them what to do. Putting a foreman in an engineering position seemed satisfactory.

That fallout was nearly immediate, with 114 people dying in Milwaukee from protozoa contamination. The plant workers were doing everything wrong, so water treatment was ineffective. They didn't understand coagulation, chlorination, or even water intake protocols.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Seriously, the lead tests on young people are not up for debate. They've been poisoned by an idiot emergency manager who didn't know what he was doing, and denied chemical tests.


The lead test results on 27 children are complete. I don't know the levels and long lasting effects, nor can you. The testing of the hundreds of other children hasn't been completed. All the water tests are posted. www.michigan.gov/flintwater.


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## 1948CaseVAI (May 12, 2014)

Nevada said:


> It's 100 year old cast iron pipe with leaded joints. That's not in dispute. It's frivolous for him to argue otherwise.
> 
> I wondered how republicans were going to fight this. I guess total denial is the standard fallback.


Oh wah wah wah - cry a river if you can find someone who cares. No one even knew lead was a problem until a couple of decades ago, and the damage is quite slow to show up and the cumulative dose takes years to build up under any circumstances. I have leaded pipes in my house and raised three stellar children with no consequences.

I don't doubt that there is an eventual danger with lead in the water but it is NOT something immediate and it is NOT a crisis. But libs never let a problem go to waste so they invent a crisis.

Of you want a real crisis look at all the damage the Kenyan sewer rat in the oval office has done - and we are allowing him to continue without penalty. THAT is a crisis.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> The lead test results on 27 children are complete. I don't know the levels and long lasting effects, nor can you. The testing of the hundreds of other children hasn't been completed. All the water tests are posted. www.michigan.gov/flintwater.


27? I don't think so.

_Between 10/1/2015 and 1/8/2016, an additional 2,642 people were tested in Flint._​ http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/Elevated_Blood_Lead_Level_Report_-_Jan._15_2016_511054_7.pdf

Check out the table on the 3rd page of the above link. Thousands were tested, as evidenced by data posted at your own link.

Why did you say it was only 27 children tested when your link says it was thousands?


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Nevada said:


> Actually, it's not. Over the years the lead had a protective covering develop, but the salts in river water has removed it. Now that the lead is exposed going back to Lake Huron water won;t get rid of the problem. That's why it's developing into a billion dollar problem.


This only has to do with solid lead supply lines that service homes that were built before 1921? Any lead supply line would be a problem from the get go. Flint had a duty to replace those lines or warn those to not drink the water. This is not about the governor..black..white..or politics.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

elevenpoint said:


> This only has to do with solid lead supply lines that service homes that were built before 1921? Any lead supply line would be a problem from the get go. Flint had a duty to replace those lines or warn those to not drink the water. This is not about the governor..black..white..or politics.


Engineers have said that it wasn't a problem with Lake Huron water, and wouldn't have been a problem with Flint River water if it had been properly treated. But now it's an issue.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Nevada said:


> Engineers have said that it wasn't a problem with Lake Huron water, and wouldn't have been a problem with Flint River water if it had been properly treated. But now it's an issue.


The issue can only be a solid lead pipe...cast iron...copper..pex..pvc..cpvc...do not have those problems. Really want to know how many of these lead pipes there are.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Engineers have said that it wasn't a problem with Lake Huron water, and wouldn't have been a problem with Flint River water if it had been properly treated. But now it's an issue.


The water Detroit was supplying was Lake Huron water. The new pipeline being built will draw Lake Huron water. 

If Lake Huron water wasn't a problem, why was phosphorus added in Detroit to coat the inside of the pipes?

If the problem proves to be due to lead pipes in the city's service lines, how is that the fault of the Emergency Manager and not the fault of the Mayor and City Council?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

elevenpoint said:


> Really want to know how many of these lead pipes there are.


They don't know how many there are, or even where they are. We're talking about 100 year old infrastructure.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

haypoint said:


> The lead test results on 27 children are complete. I don't know the levels and long lasting effects, nor can you. The testing of the hundreds of other children hasn't been completed. All the water tests are posted. www.michigan.gov/flintwater.


The effects, both short term and long term, of lead exposure in children is pretty well known. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=7&po=10

Now you'll know it too.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

haypoint said:


> The water Detroit was supplying was Lake Huron water. The new pipeline being built will draw Lake Huron water.
> 
> If Lake Huron water wasn't a problem, why was phosphorus added in Detroit to coat the inside of the pipes?
> 
> If the problem proves to be due to lead pipes in the city's service lines, how is that the fault of the Emergency Manager and not the fault of the Mayor and City Council?


This will be on Flint...federal law back in 1986 requires any public water supplier to notify those it supplies to (1) Any lead supply lines..(2) Corrosive effect of the water on those lines.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

I think when GM disconnected from the city water because it was too corrosive that would be a hint you have a problem. Also reports have indicated that the EM felt the $20,000.00 cost per year for phosphorous was too expensive. You can say "cry me a river" but if it was you and yours, you would be screaming bloody murder.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

elevenpoint said:


> This will be on Flint...federal law back in 1986 requires any public water supplier to notify those it supplies to (1) Any lead supply lines..(2) Corrosive effect of the water on those lines.


You forgot, city government was suspended and a czar was appointed by the governor. They assumed complete responsibility for everything that happened after that.

If the czar doesn't want the responsibility then he needs to leave and turn it back over to the elected government.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Nevada said:


> You forget, city government was suspended and a czar was appointed by the governor. They assumed complete responsibility for everything that happened after that.
> 
> If the czar doesn't want the responsibility then he needs to leave and turn it back over to the elected government.


As long as that happened back when that law went in effect in 1986. As long as Flint provided notification of the lead pipe...drink at your own risk.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Nevada said:


> Seriously, the lead tests on young people are not up for debate. They've been poisoned by an idiot emergency manager who didn't know what he was doing, and denied chemical tests.



It was Not the Emergency manger that made the Decision.

It was Flint City council did along with the Major.

The Emergency manager agreed to their decision.

They where left no other choice after joining the new water authority,
due to the childish antics of Detroit Water Authority.

The spent millions to put the old plant back into working condition.

I'll also add that Mayor Walling raided the Water Fund for 15.6 million dollars for other City budget considerations. 

Flints population has been shrinking since the 70's, from a population of close to two hundred thousand to less then one hundred thousand. 
I would say the current estimate is too high at 99,000. 
I put the population at closer to 60/70 thousand.

Many are long term unemployed or under employed.
We have a county program called the Land Bank, they take over Tax forfeited properties and hold many.

Traditionally Flints Divided into the South,East,West,North sides.
South and West have normally been predominately working Class.
With the South Side mostly white and the west side being a Mix.
though the Demographics have changed as property prices have been low for a long time.
The East and North Side, where the poor sections.
East being predominately white then a Influx of Hispanics in the 80's.
North side is mostly Black. 

Much of the North side and east side has been razed. with a bit on the south side.
The City its self Does not even have a Grocery store to my Knowledge.
Even Some of the surrounding communitys, no longer have Groceries.

So once you understand this,you can Understand why Flint is Broke.
The City has a budget that needs to be cut to match the Tax Base.

The City Council is notorious for be inept and ineffective.
When GM was there and life was good there was money to burn,
and seem local Goverment still has this mentality.

The almost 16 million taken from the water fund should have been used to replace the aging infrastructure.
In fact that should of been a priority for the last 20 years.

One thing you also need to Understand is the Flint river has a bad rap.
Many people consider it polluted.
When in fact its one of the cleanest rivers in the state.

The Misconception is from years and years of Ignorance.
Yes at one time it was. There where many Manufacturing plants along the river.
But what none of the residents took into consideration is the water intake for the plant is above the Manufacturing zone. 
There is a Sewage plant in Lapeer, City of Lapeer on the south Branch.
There is many miles of river and reservoir between the plant and it though.

I have Fished most of the River above and Below Flint, and the Fishing is good.
It is a healthy river and a decent water source.
In fact the city of flint owns the Reservoir.
It was always intended to be the water source.
But it was cheaper to go with Detroit.
Until they started raising the rates.

The problem stemmed from improper running of the Plant and the aging Infrastructure. 

I wish everyone would start putting the Blame where it belongs,Both the Officials and the source.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

||Downhome|| said:


> The problem stemmed from improper running of the Plant and the aging Infrastructure.


Can you show that there was a problem before changing water source?


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

You can see this as a political or race issue if you want but I don't want my babies drinking lead. The damage could already be done. IQ's have been lowered and some of those kids already had an uphill battle. I don't care if they are democrat or republican, black or white, get those kids some safe water, period!


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Nevada said:


> Can you show that there was a problem before changing water source?


Prior to the change it was the Detroit water Authority.

They have been running that plant more or less properly , continuously for 
years.

Flints plant was a by the seat of the pants arrangement.

They never considered this outcome.

Again it stems from improper running of the plant, and the aged Infrastructure.

I'm much closer to this then anyone on here.

I grew up in Flint and still live in the County.

I still have many Friends and Family in the City.

I know the County Water Commissioner personally along with many in the Water Department.

When the Switch was made the theatrics where about the water source, which was unfounded.

I know there are a lot of home in Flint that do indeed still have lead pipes. 

Many that had copper now have PVC thanks to thefts, that is if the house was not razed.

Whole city Blocks are gone.

You can buy many of the still standing houses starting at 500 to 5,000.

For a while the Land bank was ready to give them away.

Just so they could collect taxes.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

http://www.mlive.com/news/bay-city/index.ssf/2016/01/post_176.html

"Because another municipal water system in Michigan, the city of Flint's, is in deep trouble after also switching its water source from the city of Detroit to the Flint River. That water system was not treating water properly for corrosion control. As a result, lead from old service pipes and lead-solder pipe joints leached into drinking water. In addition, disinfectant byproducts in the water rose beyond the level allowed by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency."


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## RichNC (Aug 22, 2014)

Miss Kay said:


> You can see this as a political or race issue if you want but I don't want my babies drinking lead. The damage could already be done. IQ's have been lowered and some of those kids already had an uphill battle. I don't care if they are democrat or republican, black or white, get those kids some safe water, period!


I am sure there are a lot of poor white people living there also.


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## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> Can you show that there was a problem before changing water source?


There was no problem when Detroit was supplying Flint's water. Flint could not pay the bill and decided to use their own mothballed treatment plant pulling water from the Flint river, that started the problem.

And Flint cannot pay to fix anything so everyone from Houghton to Hillsdale will pay to solved this.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

||Downhome|| said:


> http://www.mlive.com/news/bay-city/index.ssf/2016/01/post_176.html
> 
> "Because another municipal water system in Michigan, the city of Flint's, is in deep trouble after also switching its water source from the city of Detroit to the Flint River. That water system was not treating water properly for corrosion control. As a result, lead from old service pipes and lead-solder pipe joints leached into drinking water. In addition, disinfectant byproducts in the water rose beyond the level allowed by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency."


Sounds like Bay City is happy that their water tests great right out of the Water Treatment Plant, but so is Flint's water. Maybe Bay City needs ACLU to get some water samples out of a few houses and see if it measures up? Then Benton Harbor, then Muskegon. Why stop now. Test every faucet and every person in the state and blame it on Snyder.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

haypoint said:


> Sounds like Bay City is happy that their water tests great right out of the Water Treatment Plant, but so is Flint's water. Maybe Bay City needs ACLU to get some water samples out of a few houses and see if it measures up? Then Benton Harbor, then Muskegon. Why stop now. Test every faucet and every person in the state and blame it on Snyder.


I think the Difference is personnel and the Day to Day operation...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> You forgot, city government was suspended and a czar was appointed by the governor. They assumed complete responsibility for everything that happened after that.
> 
> If the czar doesn't want the responsibility then he needs to leave and turn it back over to the elected government.


Sort of old news, but important details
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/2015/10/26/opinion-flint-water-disaster/74657458/


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

||Downhome|| said:


> http://www.mlive.com/news/bay-city/index.ssf/2016/01/post_176.html
> 
> "Because another municipal water system in Michigan, the city of Flint's, is in deep trouble after also switching its water source from the city of Detroit to the Flint River. That water system was not treating water properly for corrosion control. As a result, lead from old service pipes and lead-solder pipe joints leached into drinking water. In addition, disinfectant byproducts in the water rose beyond the level allowed by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency."


Isn't that what I've been saying?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Robotron said:


> I think when GM disconnected from the city water because it was too corrosive that would be a hint you have a problem. Also reports have indicated that the EM felt the $20,000.00 cost per year for phosphorous was too expensive. You can say "cry me a river" but if it was you and yours, you would be screaming bloody murder.


Wasn't GM on the same city water as Detroit? It was only recently that Flint switched to Flint River. I think GM disconnected from Flint water because it cost too much to pipe it to Mexico where the factory went.

There is no indication that the EM made any phosphorous decisions. Where did you come up with this information? 

Yup. If it were me or mine, I'd be sitting on top of my house waiting for the government to come help me and bring me a check.

http://gregbranchwords.com/2016/01/17/the-real-tragedy-in-flint/


----------



## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

from the horses mouth...

https://www.cityofflint.com/wp-content/uploads/CoF-Water-System-FAQ-1-16-2015.pdf


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

||Downhome|| said:


> It was Not the Emergency manger that made the Decision.


The emergency manager was who signed the order to switch water source.

But changing the source of the water wasn't the blunder. They could have switched to Flint River water without incident, if the water had just been treated properly. Not treating the water properly was undoubtedly a management failure. There's nobody to blame except the emergency manager.


----------



## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Nevada said:


> The emergency manager was who signed the order to switch water source.
> 
> But changing the source of the water wasn't the blunder. They could have switched to Flint River water without incident, if the water had just been treated properly. Not treating the water properly was undoubtedly a management failure. There's nobody to blame except the emergency manager.


He approved the City and Councils Decision.

He did not make nor require it.

It was voted on 7-1 and Mayor Walling accepted the Decision.

And EM Signed off on it.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

||Downhome|| said:


> He approved the City and Councils Decision.
> 
> He did not make nor require it.
> 
> ...


The emergency manager never made a move without the city council? That doesn't sound like a republican appointed czar.

So what was the vote to not treat the water properly?


----------



## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

Nevada said:


> They don't know how many there are, or even where they are. We're talking about 100 year old infrastructure.


Many towns and cities across the U.S. have old water pipes running throughout their areas.

In our local area, we recently had a water main break (of course, main street had just been paved this summer). So they dug up a section of the road and fixed the pipe.

At the Borough meeting, the water department had a piece of the pipe that was taken out. They said it was installed in 1919 - that was 96 years ago - but get this - the pipe that was installed in 1919 was USED pipe that came from Philadelphia!

If I were on the Borough Council, I would have been asking the water department when they planned on replacing the whole entire line of old pipe, but of course no one on the Borough would think to ask something like that.

So, the water department continues to use this pipe that was installed 96 years ago, but was USED pipe to begin with. I suppose the weakest area in the pipeline is already leaking, and it's just a matter of time before there is another water main break.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Michael W. Smith said:


> Many towns and cities across the U.S. have old water pipes running throughout their areas.


You would be hard pressed to find a town without old water pipes.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> You would be hard pressed to find a town without old water pipes.


Are they all in crisis? Are any, besides Flint, in crisis? Yet Flint that has been governed by strictly Democrats for 60 years, lost half its population and most of its jobs, leads the country in homicides per 100,000, in financial ruin gets to blame the Republican Gov and get bailed out from every thing from a hang nail on up.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> The emergency manager was who signed the order to switch water source.
> 
> But changing the source of the water wasn't the blunder. They could have switched to Flint River water without incident, if the water had just been treated properly. Not treating the water properly was undoubtedly a management failure. There's nobody to blame except the emergency manager.


How about the crew at the Water Treatment Plant? Aren't they the experts and isn't it their job to properly take care of this?


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> How about the crew at the Water Treatment Plant? Aren't they the experts and isn't it their job to properly take care of this?


That's a good question. They might have had engineering talent, then they might not have. There are more & more processing plants running foreman-based operations. They save a lot that way.

But before switching water sources there were obvious questions to be asked. The consequences of switching water sources needed to be evaluated. Certainly someone would have noticed the higher concentration of certain salts, and warned of the problem it might cause.

However it went, it was a failure of management one way or another.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Are they all in crisis? Are any, besides Flint, in crisis? Yet Flint that has been governed by strictly Democrats for 60 years, lost half its population and most of its jobs, leads the country in homicides per 100,000, in financial ruin gets to blame the Republican Gov and get bailed out from every thing from a hang nail on up.


You're really hung-up on the blame. One thing is for sure, whoever made the management blunder, it certainly wasn't the families in Flint. They only went by what they were told by the governor, which was that the water was safe.


----------



## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

I had no idea they put all these anti corrosion chemicals in the water. If the lead does not get you then the other garbage in the water will. 

Doesn't lead take time to build up in the system? How can a short exposure to lead tainted water cause life long problems?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

City Bound said:


> I had no idea they put all these anti corrosion chemicals in the water. If the lead does not get you then the other garbage in the water will.


There are products made for treating potable water, and it doesn't take much. One engineer estimated that $100/day in chemical would have done the job.



City Bound said:


> Doesn't lead take time to build up in the system? How can a short exposure to lead tainted water cause life long problems?


It depends on the concentration.


----------



## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Nevada said:


> That's a good question. They might have had engineering talent, then they might not have. There are more & more processing plants running foreman-based operations. They save a lot that way.
> 
> But before switching water sources there were obvious questions to be asked. The consequences of switching water sources needed to be evaluated. Certainly someone would have noticed the higher concentration of certain salts, and warned of the problem it might cause.
> 
> However it went, it was a failure of management one way or another.


See post 46... 

It will explain a lot for you ...


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> You're really hung-up on the blame. One thing is for sure, whoever made the management blunder, it certainly wasn't the families in Flint. They only went by what they were told by the governor, which was that the water was safe.


Actually, the elected Mayor went on TV and told everyone the water was safe and drank it on TV. Seems to me the elected Mayor and City council are the ones that made the changes and were the closest to the problem. 
Since the families of Flint elected these folks, perhaps they can shoulder some blame? Electing the fools for 60 years that drove out jobs, increased crime and created the financial disaster that required an Emergency Manager, should they be made accountable? Or are all unemployed liberals victims?

I think too many want to simply blame the Gov. and that is all they see. Expecting a Gov. to know all and see all is crazy talk. There is no single event or person to blame.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

City Bound said:


> I had no idea they put all these anti corrosion chemicals in the water. If the lead does not get you then the other garbage in the water will.
> 
> Doesn't lead take time to build up in the system? How can a short exposure to lead tainted water cause life long problems?


I posted some information about the effects of lead on children earlier. Its worthwhile reading for those who actually want to learn about the problem. Much has to do with the simple fact that lead embeds itself in organs and tissues and the effects last long after the exposure ends. This problem is exacerbated in children under 6 years of age.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mmoetc said:


> I posted some information about the effects of lead on children earlier. Its worthwhile reading for those who actually want to learn about the problem. Much has to do with the simple fact that lead embeds itself in organs and tissues and the effects last long after the exposure ends. This problem is exacerbated in children under 6 years of age.


I'm shocked that people don't understand that lead is a serious issue for kids. Dang, the lead paint fiasco should have given them a clue...


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

1948CaseVAI said:


> Oh wah wah wah - cry a river if you can find someone who cares. No one even knew lead was a problem until a couple of decades ago, and the damage is quite slow to show up and the cumulative dose takes years to build up under any circumstances. I have leaded pipes in my house and raised three stellar children with no consequences.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Or perhaps it has affected your ability to learn empathy and manners ?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

While not politically correct, let me lay out some cold hard facts. Some children in Flint are polite, honest, study hard and are trying to better their lot in life. Many more are among the 70% drop out rate and over all don&#8217;t value education. The lack of value to an education is so common it is considered an identifiable social trait among inner-city Blacks. Flint has the highest crime rate in the country and has been in the top ten most violent for decades. The median income in Flint is very low. In Flint, Black children born to single parents exceeds the national average of 70%.
It is a darn shame that anyone was exposed to lead in the Flint water. I think all children in Flint need to have their lead level checked. But before those results are published, we need to know if the house they live in has lead paint in it, in the soil around it and other sources for lead. But remember only a few have been tested, so far and we have no way to know who, if anyone will be effected.
There is talk of high quality food being a way to mitigate the effects of the lead. So, as a taxpayer, I guess I&#8217;m on the hook for their fine dining.
There is talk of tutors, to help these potentially learning impaired, due to lead, children. Are the taxpayers expected to fund a learning experience with a goal to turn each child into a University candidate, or can we settle on keeping the dropout rate at or below 70%?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm shocked that people don't understand that lead is a serious issue for kids. Dang, the lead paint fiasco should have given them a clue...


Nearly everyone born prior to 1970 has had lead exposure. It was in the gasoline exhaust, furniture, plumbing, walls, cupboards, painted toys, etc. Inn many areas it continues to be in our environment. But I've never heard of anyone dying of lead poisoning. I don't want more lead in my system. I understand that it is more serious for children. 

But there is no clear answer about what amount causes damage. For a long while, any detectable amount was considered harmful. But scientists couldn't detect low levels of lead. But now we can detect a thousand times smaller amounts. But our "standard" hasn't changed. People continue with the age old "any amount detectable is harmful". Maybe.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

NO !
The entire purpose of installing a EM was to keep the power structure in place from making more bad choices. 
As soon as that happened all the responceability shifted to him. 
This is the responsibility of whomever installed him. 
This is the emergency managers responsibility. 
This is the responsibility of the water plant manager who allowed this water into service. 
This is the responsibility of any water plant worker who allowed this water into service. 
There are times when you are not qualified to make decisions each of these people should have either made the right decision or admitted they were not qualified to make any decision. 
Each of these people is fully responsible for what happened. 
It's not a case of each of them share the responsibility of them should fully responsible.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Better then half of you would not make it in Flint, poisoned water or not.
a big mouth and wrong Opinion would get you lead poisoning faster then the water.

JS.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

haypoint said:


> Nearly everyone born prior to 1970 has had lead exposure. It was in the gasoline exhaust, furniture, plumbing, walls, cupboards, painted toys, etc. Inn many areas it continues to be in our environment. But I've never heard of anyone dying of lead poisoning. I don't want more lead in my system. I understand that it is more serious for children.
> 
> But there is no clear answer about what amount causes damage. For a long while, any detectable amount was considered harmful. But scientists couldn't detect low levels of lead. But now we can detect a thousand times smaller amounts. But our "standard" hasn't changed. People continue with the age old "any amount detectable is harmful". Maybe.


You can repeat that there is no clear answer as to what level causes damage. This information and the studies it cites would point to a different conclusion. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=7&po=10. I know it's only science and all but it might have a bit more credibility than your opinion.

I don't really care who the fickle finger of blame gets pointed at. I do care that the kids affected get the benefit of every bit of help they can from the same government who allowed the to be harmed. I'd feel the same if they were your kids.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> NO !
> The entire purpose of installing a EM was to keep the power structure in place from making more bad choices.
> As soon as that happened all the responceability shifted to him.
> This is the responsibility of whomever installed him.
> ...


nope your off base here. 

Its been cited above.

Detroit cancelled the contract!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> Nearly everyone born prior to 1970 has had lead exposure. It was in the gasoline exhaust, furniture, plumbing, walls, cupboards, painted toys, etc. Inn many areas it continues to be in our environment. *But I've never heard of anyone dying of lead poisoning*. I don't want more lead in my system. I understand that it is more serious for children.
> 
> But there is no clear answer about what amount causes damage. For a long while, any detectable amount was considered harmful. But scientists couldn't detect low levels of lead. But now we can detect a thousand times smaller amounts. But our "standard" hasn't changed. People continue with the age old "any amount detectable is harmful". Maybe.


"WHO estimated 143,000 deaths per year result from lead poisoning, with lead paint is a major contributor. Exposure contributes to 600,000 new cases of children with intellectual disabilities every year and 99 percent of children affected by high exposure to lead live in low- and middle-income countries."

http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2013...-per-year-from-lead-poisoning/11551382150700/

"An estimated 200 lead poisoning-related deaths occurred from 1979 to 1998."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12584008

"The Minnesota Department of Health (MDH) offers its condolences to the family of a four-year-old Minneapolis child who died February 22 of lead poisoning after swallowing a metal charm containing very high levels of lead. This is the first documented death of a child from lead poisoning in Minnesota."

http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/lead/topics/braceletrecall.html


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

||Downhome|| said:


> nope your off base here.
> 
> Its been cited above.
> 
> Detroit cancelled the contract!



I can see how that was the proximate cause of the events that followed but I do not see how that eliminates the aforementioned people's personal responsibility


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> There is talk of high quality food being a way to mitigate the effects of the lead. So, as a taxpayer, I guess Iâm on the hook for their fine dining.


I've never heard of such a thing. Once absorbed, your body doesn't give up heavy metals easily. That's because much of the lead is absorbed in bones. The most serious problems impact the central nervous system, but renal failure (kidney shutdown) can result with high dosage exposure. I know that chelation therapy has been attempted for lead poisoning, but with limited success.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

AmericanStand said:


> I can see how that was the proximate cause of the events that followed but I do not see how that eliminates the aforementioned people's personal responsibility


there are sources cited above.

see my post from "the horses mouth"

that pdf is from the city. it outlines a lot of stuff.

but there are sources from others as well.

This fall on the city Goverment. 

Look at the time lines and all of it.

put blame where due.

read my other posts in this thread.

I have been privy to this since the start.

Most of you just got wind and are sniffing around like a bloodhound with pepper up its nose.

I love how theres a few posters here, on other threads, the take is I think its up to the community to decide not outsiders.

But in this case that is what happened, the city officials decided, those elected by the city. 

None of them fore saw this,the emergency manager was only there to get a grip on spending.

Detroit could of carried them till the new pipeline and plant where completed.

But it was a two fold deal. it was a strong arm tactic and flint was not paying up like they should.

Again please see my other posts in this thread.

I suggest you all visit Flint for a week.

You may garner a bit of understanding.

I seen it go from a well kept prosperous city to something out of a 3rd world country.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> But there is no clear answer about what amount causes damage.


Don't even go there. If you're suggesting that the scientific community is divided on whether lead poisoning is a bad thing, that's complete nonsense.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> "WHO estimated 143,000 deaths per year result from lead poisoning, with lead paint is a major contributor. Exposure contributes to 600,000 new cases of children with intellectual disabilities every year and 99 percent of children affected by high exposure to lead live in low- and middle-income countries."
> 
> http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2013...-per-year-from-lead-poisoning/11551382150700/
> 
> ...



There are over 40,000 human deaths from rabies each year. How many in the US? I'd guess none.

Of those 600,000, how many in North America? Hundreds of millions of people that earn under $2. a day are low or middle class in their home country. Of those 200 deaths in the last 35 years, mostly Southern Black men drinking moonshine from lead based stills. Where's the Grant money to rehabilitate that demographic? 

Take a look at the under 15 parts per billion in Flint water and then look at the lead levels in those third world children in your statistics.

I'm not saying this is a bad deal, but not even close to a crisis, at this time with what we now know.

If my tarpaper shack burns down, I shouldn't expect it to be replaced with Trump Tower. If a coal miner is disabled, he shouldn't expect $100,000 a year for life. So, at what level is the public obligated to raise these children that may or may not have been exposed to lead in the drinking water?

Before you start thinking those Flint children deserve a blank check from the taxpayers, you should check the lead levels in every child in this country and pour some cash their way, too. Lots of water systems with lead, either in the delivery lines or the homeowner's own plumbing. Most without the sealing effects of phosphorous.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

||Downhome|| said:


> This fall on the city Goverment.
> 
> Look at the time lines and all of it.
> 
> ...


Why is blaming the city government so important to you? Do you think it will make the republican governor & emergency manager look better? Do you think blaming the city government will make Flint undeserving of disaster help?

It's just that you keep reverting back to the same blame topic, but I don't understand the point. What exactly is your point?


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Nevada said:


> Why is blaming the city government so important to you? Do you think it will make the republican governor & emergency manager look better? Do you think blaming the city government will make Flint undeserving of disaster help?
> 
> It's just that you keep reverting back to the same blame topic, but I don't understand the point. What exactly is your point?


Why was it so important to you to blame the R emergency city manager? Pot meet kettle.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> Nearly everyone born prior to 1970 has had lead exposure. It was in the gasoline exhaust, furniture, plumbing, walls, cupboards, painted toys, etc. Inn many areas it continues to be in our environment. *But I've never heard of anyone dying of lead poisoning*. I don't want more lead in my system. I understand that it is more serious for children.
> 
> But there is no clear answer about what amount causes damage. For a long while, any detectable amount was considered harmful. But scientists couldn't detect low levels of lead. But now we can detect a thousand times smaller amounts. But our "standard" hasn't changed. People continue with the age old "any amount detectable is harmful". Maybe.





haypoint said:


> There are over 40,000 human deaths from rabies each year. How many in the US? I'd guess none.
> 
> Of those 600,000, how many in North America? Hundreds of millions of people that earn under $2. a day are low or middle class in their home country. Of those 200 deaths in the last 35 years, mostly Southern Black men drinking moonshine from lead based stills. Where's the Grant money to rehabilitate that demographic?
> 
> ...


You said, "But I've never heard of anyone dying of lead poisoning" and I posted links that prove that is just not true. There are people that die in the US of lead poisonings. Fact, not opinion, not conjecture. Fact.

Lead poisoning is a very serious condition, with no real treatment, and it is not uncommon in the US. http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Nevada said:


> Why is blaming the city government so important to you? Do you think it will make the republican governor & emergency manager look better? Do you think blaming the city government will make Flint undeserving of disaster help?
> 
> It's just that you keep reverting back to the same blame topic, but I don't understand the point. What exactly is your point?


Its where the Blame Lies, I live here in Michigan.

I know the Details,I understand Michigan Law.

I seen the whole thing unfold... First Hand.

It was not Just the current city government its was decades of them!

All Democrat...

I grew up there, where do you draw your understanding of this whole matter?

So continue to Ignore the Facts.


----------



## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Oh and Detroit's a long term Dem city as well visit there for a week as well.

Another 3rd world, Urban Desert. 

But that is all republicans to blame as well!

Go Figure?


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> You said, "But I've never heard of anyone dying of lead poisoning" and I posted links that prove that is just not true. There are people that die in the US of lead poisonings. Fact, not opinion, not conjecture. Fact.
> 
> Lead poisoning is a very serious condition, with no real treatment, and it is not uncommon in the US. http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/


OK, you are right, I'm wrong. I failed to include the 200 moonshine drinking southern Black men that passed on over the past 40 years. Sorry. Black Lives Matter. Oh, plus the Charms chewing child in Duluth.

No treatment? Are you sure? When cattle chew up an old lead battery left in the pasture, their lead level spikes. But over time it goes way, way down. That is way more lead than a child might get from a 20 parts per billion sip of tap water. It has been reported that with proper nutrition the effects of lead can be mitigated. But it has also been reported that throwing a billion dollars at the problem will solve it.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

||Downhome|| said:


> I grew up there, where do you draw your understanding of this whole matter?


I draw the line when you mislead people about lead poisoning. Judging by your posts, you don't seem to have a professional background in chemical exposure.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> But it has also been reported that throwing a billion dollars at the problem will solve it.


Short of replacing the water system, how do you propose to solve it?


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Um now you grasping, that was not your stance nor in any way related any question you posed to me.

I believe you wanted to know why I was so bent for the city government to shoulder the Blame...


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> OK, you are right, I'm wrong. I failed to include the 200 moonshine drinking southern Black men that passed on over the past 40 years. Sorry. Black Lives Matter. Oh, plus the Charms chewing child in Duluth.
> 
> No treatment? Are you sure? When cattle chew up an old lead battery left in the pasture, their lead level spikes. But over time it goes way, way down. That is way more lead than a child might get from a 20 parts per billion sip of tap water. It has been reported that with proper nutrition the effects of lead can be mitigated. But it has also been reported that throwing a billion dollars at the problem will solve it.


Kids aren't cows. The human body, especially the growing and maturing human body, is vastly different than the bovine. 

"Lead hurts the brain and other parts of the nervous system. Some of the health problems caused by lead poisoning may never go away."

The PDF explains all about lead poisoning.

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/tools/LeadGlossary_508.pdf


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

By the way where was your noble self when this all started oh great crusader.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

||Downhome|| said:


> Um now you grasping, that was not your stance nor in any way related any question you posed to me.
> 
> I believe you wanted to know why I was so bent for the city government to shoulder the Blame...


But what do you hope to accomplish by blaming the city government? Do you want the city council to pay for a new water system out of their salaries?


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Kids aren't cows. The human body, especially the growing and maturing human body, is vastly different than the bovine.
> 
> "Lead hurts the brain and other parts of the nervous system. Some of the health problems caused by lead poisoning may never go away."
> 
> ...


You'd be surprised at the commonalities between you and a bovine. Mammals, both and lots more.

http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/lead/faqs.html#Reduce
There is a treatment used to bring down high blood lead levels. Certain medicines combine with lead so the body can get rid of it more easily. The doctor will decide if a child needs this treatment. The best way to lower an elevated blood lead level is to prevent continued exposure to lead

So, I guess you aren't stuck with it for life.
Since it is widely believed that elevated lead levels are associated with lowered intelligence, I hope they didn't use the most common group to have high lead levels, again I mention 200 moonshine drinking southern Black men. Just saying.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> You'd be surprised at the commonalities between you and a bovine. Mammals, both and lots more.
> 
> http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/lead/faqs.html#Reduce
> There is a treatment used to bring down high blood lead levels. Certain medicines combine with lead so the body can get rid of it more easily. The doctor will decide if a child needs this treatment. The best way to lower an elevated blood lead level is to prevent continued exposure to lead
> ...


It's called chelation therapy, and it's not a treatment to _reverse_ the damage done by lead poisoning. http://www.healthline.com/health/lead-poisoning#Treatment6

You think that blacks are a less intelligent group of people? You don't seem to think highly of black people, do you?


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Nevada said:


> But what do you hope to accomplish by blaming the city government? Do you want the city council to pay for a new water system out of their salaries?


no I want the correct parties charged, the Govoner nor EM's (there where two in this time period) are not at fault here which you keep inferring they are.

If you bothered to read provided citations, you would learn something.

You keep squallering like an ally cat who found his true love though and then go to left field when your called on it.

I said prior it was mismanagement at the Plant, and a aged Infrastructure. Which if properly maintained( oh and flint had the money to do that from the 70's till GM pulled its last roots in the 90's) 

It should of never come to this.

If you did bother to read the PDF issued by the city, you would know,

"The DEQ requires that public water systems with population over 20,000 must have an F-I state licensed operator in charge that oversees the operation of the treatment process.This license is the highest classification in the state that specializes in âcomplete treatmentâ The City of Flint has such a person on staff at the water plant and that personâs responsibility is to determine the correct levels of chemical treatment, monitor the system, submit official test results to the state regulatory agency,and make necessary adjustments when contaminant levels are breached. All of these steps were followed and acknowledged by the DEQ." 

Along with other pertinent Info. But Ignorance is bliss, and you can sing the same song all day. so what ever I had my say I let you folks who are oh so informed carry on in you ever enlightened discussion, Because its going to actually effect something in Flint.

Its not Flints first disaster and I doubt its not the last.

But you know what when most people would roll over and Die, Flintstones keep rolling. In stride even.


----------



## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Here you go Nevada, False Reports by City officials...

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/11/documents_show_city_filed_fals.html


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Nevada said:


> But what do you hope to accomplish by blaming the city government? Do you want the city council to pay for a new water system out of their salaries?


You absolutely slay me. 

You come out swinging wanting to hang a Republican then get all sanctimonious when maybe the blame is shared between others. 

You deserve Harry Reid.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

||Downhome|| said:


> "The DEQ requires that public water systems with population over 20,000 must have an F-I state licensed operator in charge that oversees the operation of the treatment process.This license is the highest classification in the state that specializes in âcomplete treatmentâ The City of Flint has such a person on staff at the water plant and that personâs responsibility is to determine the correct levels of chemical treatment, monitor the system, submit official test results to the state regulatory agency,and make necessary adjustments when contaminant levels are breached. All of these steps were followed and acknowledged by the DEQ."


Read on. A level 1 water operator has received a certificate of competence to carry out the normal tasks of everyday operation. A level 4 certification is required for design and construction of a water operation, requiring a registered engineer.

If all they can claim is a level 1 operator then he isn't qualified to determine the consequences of changing water sources.


----------



## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Nevada said:


> Read on. A level 1 water operator has received a certificate of competence to carry out the normal tasks of everyday operation. A level 4 certification is required for design and construction of a water operation, requiring a registered engineer.
> 
> If all they can claim is a level 1 operator then he isn't qualified to determine the consequences of changing water sources.


 That is from the city, read the falsified reports link!

Your getting a Education now, I'll be so proud when you Graduate!


----------



## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

I know the source will be chastised but the letter from the EM is accurate. Can't get any clearer than the letterhead. He chose to move the water supply. 
http://www.aclumich.org/sites/default/files/Flint EM Darnell Early's Letter to DWSD.pdf


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

||Downhome|| said:


> That is from the city, read the falsified reports link!
> 
> Your getting a Education now, I'll be so proud when you Graduate!


I'm an engineer, and I've done water projects.


----------



## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Ok let me explain that to you, Genesee County Subbed the water from Detroit through Flint. He was also the second Emergency Manager. the decision was already made prior to his appointment. Jeff wrights not a fool. He under promised and over delivered. The KWA project should be close to a year ahead of schedule.
But they choose Detroit Water. Made a deal. Flint Declined and this letter is the Em trying to secure Detroit water, maybe my reading comprehensions off. you know like swimmers ear but ya no. read slowwww and have a dictionary handy.

Well why are you in a desert? but that explains so much!

PSTD but that would explain a lot



Nevada said:


> Read on. A level 1 water operator has received a certificate of competence to carry out the normal tasks of everyday operation. A level 4 certification is required for design and construction of a water operation, requiring a registered engineer.
> 
> If all they can claim is a level 1 operator then he isn't qualified to determine the consequences of changing water sources.



F-I not one.

pretty shoty for a engineer.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

||Downhome|| said:


> F-I not one.


The F-type water operator certification has levels 1 through 4. I don't see F-I.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/deq-ess-otu-dw-Requirements_257401_7.pdf

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong Michigan water operator certification.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

look at the Pdf thats what the city said?


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Nevada said:


> The F-type water operator certification has levels 1 through 4. I don't see F-I.
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/deq-ess-otu-dw-Requirements_257401_7.pdf
> 
> Maybe I'm looking at the wrong Michigan water operator certification.


I know you'll like this...the governor just said on the evening news they switched back to Detroit water and are in the process of coating the pipes.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Nevada said:


> The F-type water operator certification has levels 1 through 4. I don't see F-I.
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/deq-ess-otu-dw-Requirements_257401_7.pdf
> 
> Maybe I'm looking at the wrong Michigan water operator certification.


according to the city...

"The DEQ requires that public water systems with population over 20,000 must have an F-I state licensed operator in charge"

go figure?


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

I vs 1 ya ok


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

this chem vs that one vs 1/4 to 1/2,ya what eva its good!


----------



## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

catching on yet! Mr.Engineer?


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

||Downhome|| said:


> look at the Pdf thats what the city said?


I'm guessing that the "I" in F-I is meant as the roman numeral for 1. But it's not a big deal either way.

People get hung-up on certifications. It's that kind of hang-up that prompted me to get my HVAC/refrigeration license. But certifications are only intended to assure competency when an engineer isn't around. Kind of like a licensed boiler operator being competent to take over the boiler at night when everyone else leaves.

I recall going home for Thanksgiving in Ohio one year, when I was nearby in Chicago doing a boiler revamp. One ex-Navy family member asked:

Him: So what are you doing in Chicago?
Me: A boiler turnaround project.
Him: Oh, are you a licensed boiler operator?
Me: No. I'm an engineer.
Him: Doesn't Union Oil have licensed boiler operators?
Me: Of course.
Him: Well then, the boiler operators are really in charge of the project.
Me: No, they aren't involved.

A licensed boiler operator is trained to run a boiler without supervision, but has no background in making boiler design changes. It's not a deal where one person is ranked higher than another, it's more of a "you do your job and I'll do mine" kind of thing. I don't really want to be a boiler operator, and he doesn't really want to design boilers.

My point is that water operators operate water plants, they don't design them.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Nevada said:


> I'm guessing that the "I" in F-I is meant as the roman numeral for 1. But it's not a big deal either way.
> 
> People get hung-up on certifications. It's that kind of hang-up that prompted me to her my HVAC license. But certifications are only intended to assure competency when an engineer isn't around. Kind of like a licensed boiler operator being competent to take over the boiler at night when everyone else leaves.
> 
> ...


My point is your stretching to try to maintain your original attack at a Republican instead of letting the facts take you to a conclusion. Maybe the Republicans are at fault and maybe not, but you should look at all the evidence and not just that that supports your agenda of Republican bashing. Normally you are more methodical in your evaluations.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

nchobbyfarm said:


> My point is your stretching to try to maintain your original attack at a Republican instead of letting the facts take you to a conclusion. Maybe the Republicans are at fault and maybe not, but you should look at all the evidence and not just that that supports your agenda of Republican bashing. Normally you are more methodical in your evaluations.


I've been following this story for awhile. I hesitate to mention this, but Rachael Maddow took this story on in the beginning. It was the first reall national media show to pick up on it, I hesitate because conservatives have an opinion of Maddow similar to my opinion of Limbaugh.

But for what it's worth, here's part of her show from Dec 18.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V21PdoZEyzE[/ame]


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> It's called chelation therapy, and it's not a treatment to _reverse_ the damage done by lead poisoning. http://www.healthline.com/health/lead-poisoning#Treatment6
> 
> You think that blacks are a less intelligent group of people? You don't seem to think highly of black people, do you?


I'll admit it, I don't hold any group of folks drinking lead tainted moonshine with admiration. They do not represent a group I aspire to be like. But all that aside, if that group were found to have a sub-par IQ, one might not want to draw the conclusion it was caused by the lead. 

I didn't think we were discussing reversing damage, rather methods used to flush it from your body, before any damage can result. 

Who gets to determine if a child's learning is impaired by the effects of lead or if they come by their low IQ quite naturally?


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

haypoint said:


> You'd be surprised at the commonalities between you and a bovine. Mammals, both and lots more.
> 
> http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/lead/faqs.html#Reduce
> There is a treatment used to bring down high blood lead levels. Certain medicines combine with lead so the body can get rid of it more easily. The doctor will decide if a child needs this treatment. The best way to lower an elevated blood lead level is to prevent continued exposure to lead
> ...


Blood levels aren't the long term issue. Blood levels will decrease naturally when exposure ends and after about thirty days will return to normal. But depending on how long the exposure lasted damage will already have been done. Depending again on the length and exposure levels lead will have been deposited in tissues and organs and damage will continue. Science isn't really that hard to understand.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> I'll admit it, I don't hold any group of folks drinking lead tainted moonshine with admiration. They do not represent a group I aspire to be like. But all that aside, if that group were found to have a sub-par IQ, one might not want to draw the conclusion it was caused by the lead.
> 
> I didn't think we were discussing reversing damage, rather methods used to flush it from your body, before any damage can result.
> 
> Who gets to determine if a child's learning is impaired by the effects of lead or if they come by their low IQ quite naturally?


I don't hold any group of folks that support racism with admiration, I find they often have a sub-par IQ. 

Google is your friend, research chelation therapy. So the lead isn't the issue it's that the kids were just stupid to start with? Is that what your saying? Big sigh...


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Every major city has those old water lines. I don't care if it's D or R in power, it is hard to get people to pay taxes and assessments for something as "unsexy" as infrastructure. In Kansas City, the zoo has been updated to "world class", convention center built with multi-million dollar modern art pieces on top for decoration, a 2 mile, 200 million dollar toy train is about to start operating, all kinds of sexy projects got done - but those 100 year old water pipes will stay in service until they fail and absolutely have to be replaced. And the sewer system is just as outdated, there are areas that chronically flood when it rains too much, too fast. Until it breaks they just don't fix it. 

So making this a partisan issue is just hissing and spitting for the sake of hissing and spitting. Neglect of infrastructure has caught up with another town. And very poor implementation of the plan to bring the water treatment plant out of mothballs. 

Sounds like bottled water and filters have been widely distributed, and once they properly treat the water for awhile the lead will be insulated again. Even the lead that is on the customers' side of the meter, there is plenty of lead-soldered copper pipes still in service in homes and businesses. 

The big question, have people gotten enough lead exposure for health problems, and what are they doing to help them.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Who gets to determine if a child's learning is impaired by the effects of lead or if they come by their low IQ quite naturally?


Statistics, of course. If you normally fine one impaired child in a group of a certain size, then you suddenly start seeing 3 or 4, you can assume something caused it. They also look at the kind of impairment, where some are typically associated with lead while others aren't.

We have people who are good at this sort of thing.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> Google is your friend, research chelation therapy.


I can boil that down. Chelation therapy involves the IV introduction of a chelating agent, which has the ability to scavenge free metal ions, forming a compound that can be readily removed by the kidneys.

Chelating agents are usually organic ligands that have the ability to bond to a metal multiple times. The resulting chelate is normally identified as the metal chelate, such as iron chelate, or in this case lead chelate.

As you already pointed out, chelation therapy is intended to help remove lead from blood more rapidly. It is not intended to repair damage caused by lead poisoning.


----------



## hoddedloki (Nov 14, 2014)

I think that the funniest thing about this sad situation is how many people are trying to blame this on conservatives or progressives. Face the facts, it was an unintended consequence of trying to save money, not some plot to kill people. 

And you can variously blame it on the governor who appointed the emergency co-ordinator, on the Michigan DEQ, the city council going back 50 years, or even the residents for not leaving for better climes. But casting blame doesn't fix the problem, nor is there likely going to be enough money to fix the problem in the long term, at least as long as any politicians are still in charge. 

But silly me, thinking that the point of this whole kerfuffle is to actually fix the problem, when pretty much every active participant (except the residents) is more interested in using the problem as an exercise in political power. Still think we are the shining city on the hill?

Loki


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

hoddedloki said:


> But silly me, thinking that the point of this whole kerfuffle is to actually fix the problem, when pretty much every active participant (except the residents) is more interested in using the problem as an exercise in political power. Still think we are the shining city on the hill?
> 
> Loki


And there's the rub. Some members are denying that lead poisoning is a serious enough problem to fix.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't hold any group of folks that support racism with admiration, I find they often have a sub-par IQ.
> 
> Google is your friend, research chelation therapy. So the lead isn't the issue it's that the kids were just stupid to start with? Is that what your saying? Big sigh...


How did this become about race? You said the deaths from lead were mostly southern, moonshine drinking Black men. You listed them in your lead death statistics. 

I think every child impaired by the lead in the drinking water deserves all the help they can get. But as a taxpayer, I'd not think it necessary to throw endless funds trying to make each child a brain surgeon or rocket scientist. Perhaps we can improve on the 50% illiteracy rate or the 70% dropout rate? Lower the homicide rate to below 60?
Since lead exists in many children, not just those in Flint, why should the government just help Flint children? 
Is the government responsible for the lead in the water, plus the lead in the house the child lives in? I guess what I'm asking is at what point has the taxpayer fully compensated the children of Flint and how much more care should the children of Flint receive over the children of other cities? 
Does it work like an award, the more lead in your child, the more medical attention, food supplies, tutoring in school? Should we do a lead test on every child in Michigan and give every child with elevated lead the same attention?

But in reality, we are way ahead of ourselves. Only a few children in Flint have had their lead levels checked. No one knows to what extent the lead ingestion is. No one will know until everyone is tested. Bottled water and faucet filters have been in place for many months. Thousands are added every day.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> And there's the rub. Some members are denying that lead poisoning is a serious enough problem to fix.


Once the phosphorus coating is built back up, is that fixed? Should Flint dig up every service line that might be lead? Should every homeowner be required to replace all plumbing that has lead solder joints? Who pays for all this? Raise Flint's taxes to redo their pipes? Add a surcharge on the property tax bill and enter each house and strip out the copper? Shut off service to anyone that has lead in their home plumbing?

Very little of the water usage is for drinking. The filters handle drinking needs. This solves the problem and doesn't over tax the homeowner. The water problem is solved. Until we know the lead levels in children, we don't know what will need to be done. That may prove to be much adue about nothing. I hope so.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Once the phosphorus coating is built back up, is that fixed?


Sure. I'm open to alternative solutions.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> The filters handle drinking needs. This solves the problem and doesn't over tax the homeowner. The water problem is solved.


A filter might help reduce turbidity, but it's not going to remove ionic lead. Nothing short of reverse osmosis is going to accomplish that.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

40 some years ago, a warehouse worker at a chemical plant in St. Louis MI, added Fire Master to a cattle feed supplement instead of Fire Starter, the proper mineral mix.
Farm Bureau Feed Mills bought tons of this mostly mineral mix and added a bit to the grain ration that went to dairy cows. Farmers fed the dairy ration. Cows suffered, milk production fell, calves died or had birth defects. Dept. of Ag tested cattle, tested silage for a variety of molds, toxins, insecticides and herbicides. No positive results for anything. University animal scientists made numerous visits and a variety of tests were completed. 

While all this was going on, milk was shipped from farms and processed and sold in every grocery store in the state. 

Eventually, by mistake, PBB was discovered in the feed. Then, that test was used to test cattle, farmers, farm children and the general public. The population of Michigan has ingested a fire retardant that remains in fat cells. 

The chemical company was sued, went bankrupt and that was the end of the story. The state bought everyone's cattle, buried them in lined pits. Topsoil around barns was buried in landfills. We went on with our lives. 

No one called for the Gov to be jailed, the CEO of Michigan Milk Producers wasn't fired. The President of Farm Bureau wasn't required to resign. The Director of the Dept of Ag wasn't fired. The Dean of MSU didn't go to prison. The owner of the chemical company lost his business, but wasn't charged with attempted manslaughter. The warehouse worker lost his job when the place closed. The two different chemical manufacturers that produced these very different products, in nearly identical bags were not charged with any crime, nor made to change their labels.

Interesting how we've changed in a few decades. 

Ron Howard directed and stared a movie about it, called Bitter Harvest.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> A filter might help reduce turbidity, but it's not going to remove ionic lead. Nothing short of reverse osmosis is going to accomplish that.


Not so. Your friend Google says different.
https://www.pur.com/why-filter
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/getting-the-lead-out-27-12-2005/
http://www.nrdc.org/water/drinking/gfilters.asp


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Nevada said:


> And there's the rub. Some members are denying that lead poisoning is a serious enough problem to fix.


It's just poor black kids, right? Plus they were probably stupid anyway. And it costs taxpayers too much to make it right. :facepalm:


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## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> It's just poor black kids, right? Plus they were probably stupid anyway. And it costs taxpayers too much to make it right. :facepalm:


No, it is the residents of Flint MI, stupid is your statement, and what is your definition of right?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Not so. Your friend Google says different.
> https://www.pur.com/why-filter
> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/getting-the-lead-out-27-12-2005/
> http://www.nrdc.org/water/drinking/gfilters.asp


If you look in your 3rd link it's gets specific about which technology works for which contaminants. Lead is not removed with activated carbon, cation exchange, or UV disinfection. Lead can be reduced with a distiller or reverse osmosis.

http://www.nrdc.org/water/drinking/gfilters.asp

But I wouldn't call either a distiller or a reverse osmosis system a filter.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I don't have a dog in the fight and was not aware who was Dem Rep , white , brown or green. But it's obvious to me the chain of responceability flows with the chain of authority.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> I don't have a dog in the fight and was not aware who was Dem Rep , white , brown or green. But it's obvious to me the chain of responceability flows with the chain of authority.


If I run up my credit cards and borrow every dime I can, then tell the Bank I can't pay my bills. The Bank offers a Credit Councilor to manage my money. Then I switch from Blue Cross to Malfunction Junction Insurance. The Bank's Credit Councilor doesn't stop me. Then I discover my wife's birth control pills aren't covered. My wife got pregnant. So, now the Bank President should be fired and the Bank owes me for 18 years of child care. Now I see how you are thinking. Right.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

So far, in Flint, about 2000 people tested for lead, 45 people showed elevated lead levels. Source of the lead remains undetermined.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> If I run up my credit cards and borrow every dime I can, then tell the Bank I can't pay my bills. The Bank offers a Credit Councilor to manage my money. Then I switch from Blue Cross to Malfunction Junction Insurance. The Bank's Credit Councilor doesn't stop me. Then I discover my wife's birth control pills aren't covered. My wife got pregnant. So, now the Bank President should be fired and the Bank owes me for 18 years of child care. Now I see how you are thinking. Right.


The emergency manager isn't a counselor, he's a czar. And that's the intent.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> So far, in Flint, about 2000 people tested for lead, 45 people showed elevated lead levels. Source of the lead remains undetermined.


And 10 fatal cases of Legionnairesâ disease. That's a huge outbreak.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> And 10 fatal cases of Legionnairesâ disease. That's a huge outbreak.


Legionnaires' Disease is a complex and interesting topic. But since it is unrelated to the Flint politically fueled "crisis", feel free to start a fresh thread on this totally unrelated topic. I'm not telling you what to just offering a suggestion.

BTW, people do not get LD from drinking water.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Nevada said:


> And 10 fatal cases of Legionnairesâ disease. That's a huge outbreak.


The children tested for lead has jumped significantly since the supply switch.

"Hanna-Attisha and other doctors at the Hurley Medical Center in Flint, Michigan, have been monitoring lead levels in children for years, even before the municipal water supply switch was announced in March 2014 and implemented the following month. They found that 4.9 percent of the 737 children tested after the switch had elevated lead levels in their blood. This is a significant increase from the 2.4 percent of 736 children tested in 2013 before the switch."

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/flint-water-crisis-children-exposed-lead/story?id=36376739


----------



## Fire128 (May 2, 2012)

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/261548/democrats-filthy-flint-water-daniel-greenfield

Seems the emergency manager was a democrat.....


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> The children tested for lead has jumped significantly since the supply switch.
> 
> "Hanna-Attisha and other doctors at the Hurley Medical Center in Flint, Michigan, have been monitoring lead levels in children for years, even before the municipal water supply switch was announced in March 2014 and implemented the following month. They found that 4.9 percent of the 737 children tested after the switch had elevated lead levels in their blood. This is a significant increase from the 2.4 percent of 736 children tested in 2013 before the switch."
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/Health/flint-water-crisis-children-exposed-lead/story?id=36376739


Why yes when sensationalism and political point scoring is the goal, a 2.5% uptick is "significant". That is 17 kids. 

And they don't say exactly how high the levels are, just "elevated". Are they in the range to cause damage or not?

I think the hype is getting carried away on this. They have changed back to the old water source. They have handed out free bottled water and filters. They are doing extensive testing and follow up. They sent out information including dietary recommendations to minimize the absorption of lead. So the problem has been addressed and the solution is happening. But the media can't get enough of this "crisis". And apparently the public can't either. 

If any good comes from the over-exposure, I would hope it's that people start showing up for city council meetings and asking questions about their town's water supply lines, water sources, and treatment practices.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MO_cows said:


> Why yes when sensationalism and political point scoring is the goal, a 2.5% uptick is "significant". That is 17 kids.
> 
> And they don't say exactly how high the levels are, just "elevated". Are they in the range to cause damage or not?
> 
> ...


_Any_ lead in a kid's body can cause problems, it doesn't matter how much. I guess it would be OK if it were _your_ kid in the increase of 17 after the supply switch? After all, it may only have been a small amount, right? I don't think the parents of those kids think it's sensationalism, do you?

I don't care, and have not brought up, politics at all. In this situation it's the kids that are important, not the politics.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Legionnaires' Disease is a complex and interesting topic. But since it is unrelated to the Flint politically fueled "crisis", feel free to start a fresh thread on this totally unrelated topic.


How do you know that the Legionnaires' disease outbreak isn't related to the water issue?


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> _Any_ lead in a kid's body can cause problems, it doesn't matter how much. I guess it would be OK if it were _your_ kid in the increase of 17 after the supply switch? After all, it may only have been a small amount. I don't think the parents of those kids think it's sensationalism, do you?


I would hope the parents don't care about media coverage, just what Flint is doing for them and their kids. 

And there is a lot of territory between "significant" and "OK". Because I called out the "significant" adjective as being more sensational than the facts supported, does not mean I think exposing kids to lead is "OK".

Generations of kids grew up with lead based paint used on their toys, cribs, etc. Lead wasn't banned in most kinds of paint until 1978, so that means me and likely you too chewed on plenty of lead painted items when we were little. So there are many thousands of examples where some exposure to lead or minor ingestion of it didn't cause harm. Of course the less exposure the better, but I bet the kids from Flint are going to be just fine, too. The media plays up the drama of all the possible side effects from lead, the worst case scenario, and the politicians are going to try and score points with it too. 

Deep breath, everybody calm down, let's see what shakes out going forward.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Before we declare a crisis:
get back on Detroit water. check
supply everyone with bottled drinking water. check
supply everyone with tap water filters. check
put the posters and pitchforks away. check

Next:
Find out what the average lead level is in all the major cities in Michigan, to establish a "baseline".
Test everyone that drank Flint water in the past 18 months.
Focus on everyone that had elevated lead levels, above the state average. Inspect their homes, yards, places of work and take steps to eliminate sources of lead.
Provide treatment that will flush any recently ingested lead from their bodies.
Offer low interest loans to replace the existing, lead leaching copper plumbing in homes.
Once it has been established that 100,000 Flint residents have been poisoned by Gov. Snyder, and irreparable harm done to thousands, declare a crisis.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Before we declare a crisis:


Too late. It's already been declared.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> How do you know that the Legionnaires' disease outbreak isn't related to the water issue?


First, it is hardly an outbreak when 80 people in a county of 300,000 get a disease. Many of those that came down with LD didn't even drink the water. Read about how it spreads, where it is found. 

The Flint water was being treated to kill bacteria.

If there were an increase in the number of drive-by shootings, would you want to blame that on the Flint water, too?

The chemistry of water treatment is complex enough without adding far fetched notions. 

Rest assured, the Health Department has been on top of this concern for a few weeks now.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> First, it is hardly an outbreak when 80 people in a county of 300,000 get a disease.


I didn't say get, I said DIED!


----------



## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

Wrong, 

"Health officials are investigating whether two Legionnaires' disease outbreaks in and around Flint, Michigan, were caused or impacted by the ongoing water-contamination crisis, authorities said today. 
The Michigan Department of Health and Human Services has launched an investigation into two outbreaks of Legionnaires' disease, in 2014 and 2015, which sickened 87 -- killing 10 of them -- in Genesee County. Those sickened ranged in age from 26 to 94, and became sick between either June 6, 2014, to March 9, 2015, or May 4, 2015, to Oct. 29, 2015, the agency said. "


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> If I run up my credit cards and borrow every dime I can, then tell the Bank I can't pay my bills. The Bank offers a Credit Councilor to manage my money. Then I switch from Blue Cross to Malfunction Junction Insurance. The Bank's Credit Councilor doesn't stop me. Then I discover my wife's birth control pills aren't covered. My wife got pregnant. So, now the Bank President should be fired and the Bank owes me for 18 years of child care. Now I see how you are thinking. Right.


 Not even close. 
In your example all of the actions by everyone are voluntary. 
If the governor and his appointee had stayed out of it they would bare no responceability.


----------



## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

well lets see here,

If everyone not from Michigan, or actually in Michigan.

or a Actual Connection to Flint.

Bowed out now, like its been pointed out in other threads....

"What do you know as outsiders"

So if this means so much, please visit.

Doubt any will.

Tired of my home town only getting negative attention.

That D bag M Moore who made his name on Flint well, like many in this thread have no right. 

You choose to Ignore so much, and where were you in the last 30 years?

yup! what I thought.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Not even close.
> In your example all of the actions by everyone are voluntary.
> If the governor and his appointee had stayed out of it they would bare no responceability.


The city of Flint made choices. Turns out they were bad choices. Hence my example.

The City of Flint was drowning in debt. It was better for Flint and the State, perhaps for the country, that the city not fail. 
It took a lot of cutbacks and changes, but Detroit is in better shape than they have been since the race riots drove the jobs away, 45 years ago. 
Continually bailing out failing cities is poor use of my tax dollars. 
Snyder couldn't have been elected if it weren't for the support of the southeast part of the state. So, in a way, their elected government official appointed an Emergency Manager. 
There are enough mistakes and enough blame for everyone involved, I just don't see the point in piling it on one or two people.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

The actual solution is to replace the actual lead supply piping...copper sweat fittings are not the problem. Expensive but the solution. We have a term in my neck of the woods..Ozark engineering...anything to rig it to work but never fix the real problem.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

A friend is a contractor near Flint. With so many vacant homes reverting to the city due to unpaid taxes, the city started a program to renovate these homes and sell them to new homeowners. My friend bid on a few of these jobs. First thing he did was order a huge dumpster and have it set in the driveway. Came back on Monday and the dumpster was stolen.
To comply with building standards, homes must get the lead out. So, the wood siding, trim, wall plaster and lath, cupboards and floors had to be removed by a team of trained, licensed and inspected hazardous waste contractors. The roof shingles had to go (worn out) and the electrical and plumbing were in violation (outdated, not up to code). New furnace, plumbing, electrical, roof trim, walls, ceilings, insulation and flooring. Plus any structural problems you might have in an old house.
The renovation cost $100,000. The city wanted to sell it for $80,000. It was appraised at $60,000, but remained unsold after 6 months, listed at $40,000. Unsure what it sold for.
This an example of the struggle Flint has had.
 If this were a real crisis, a crash in the value of homes would be understandable. But if this is contrived to shame the Gov and get more money thrown into the sink hole, it has needlessly driven people from investing, starting businesses, raising a family, further devaluing everyone&#8217;s home values. Again, the most poor get hurt the most.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

I'm wondering why they don't use one of the relining technologies available these days.

Resleave the mains and it would seem problem solved.

http://www.aqua-pipe.com/technical-information/cured-in-place-piping.html


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

elevenpoint said:


> The actual solution is to replace the actual lead supply piping...copper sweat fittings are not the problem. Expensive but the solution. We have a term in my neck of the woods..Ozark engineering...anything to rig it to work but never fix the real problem.


Apparently, no one knows which homes have lead service lines. Digging up the line at every one 's home is so far beyond the city's ability, that it is unthinkable. Besides, if you can do it in Flint, what about the millions of homes outside Flint with lead service lines?

The reports on testing seem to focus on the brass fittings like the faucets are a source, too. Apparently brass isn't safe either.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

haypoint said:


> Apparently, no one knows which homes have lead service lines. Digging up the line at every one 's home is so far beyond the city's ability, that it is unthinkable. Besides, if you can do it in Flint, what about the millions of homes outside Flint with lead service lines?
> 
> The reports on testing seem to focus on the brass fittings like the faucets are a source, too. Apparently brass isn't safe either.


Not sure of the accuracy but I read the locations of lead pipes were written on index cards...doubt very much it would be all lead piping known after this many years.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I only live 30 miles from this mess not clear across the Macinaw bridge. I have been seeing it on the news just about every night for over 14 months. 
Keep in mind that Flint river has been there since the city was founded yet they paid for water from Detroit when they starte pipeing water to homes in Flint. Almost as soon as the switch was made BY Snyders appointed EM people were coming to city councile meetings raising cane about the crappy watwer color, taste and smell. Ya way back 14 months ago Flint TV 12, Clio TV25 and Saginaw TV 5 was reporting the citizens out rage.
How ever be cause of the peoples statis as most poor and on some type of goverment assistance they were egnored.
It has recently came out the DEQ and MICH dept of EPA Lied and covered up problems with the water.

You if you care can probably go to TV12 ABC Flint and go all the way back and read the whole story for the very first. 

I think they should recall snyder and all his lying flunkies really.

 Al


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

alleyyooper said:


> I only live 30 miles from this mess not clear across the Macinaw bridge. I have been seeing it on the news just about every night for over 14 months.
> Keep in mind that Flint river has been there since the city was founded yet they paid for water from Detroit when they starte pipeing water to homes in Flint. Almost as soon as the switch was made BY Snyders appointed EM people were coming to city councile meetings raising cane about the crappy watwer color, taste and smell. Ya way back 14 months ago Flint TV 12, Clio TV25 and Saginaw TV 5 was reporting the citizens out rage.
> How ever be cause of the peoples statis as most poor and on some type of goverment assistance they were egnored.
> It has recently came out the DEQ and MICH dept of EPA Lied and covered up problems with the water.
> ...


Al, if it was just that simple. Who voted to leave Detroit water? It wasn't Snyder's EM. 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOO804Hokrc[/ame]


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

http://www.michigan.gov/snyder/0,4668,7-277-74857_74858-373716--,00.html


This is sort of a long speech, but he does lay out the time line in an understandable way.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Al, if it was just that simple.


Doesn't living in the area make alleyyooper right?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

flewism said:


> Wrong,
> 
> "Health officials are investigating whether two Legionnaires' disease outbreaks in and around Flint, Michigan, were caused or impacted by the ongoing water-contamination crisis, authorities said today.
> The Michigan Department of Health and Human Services has launched an investigation into two outbreaks of Legionnaires' disease, in 2014 and 2015, which sickened 87 -- killing 10 of them -- in Genesee County. Those sickened ranged in age from 26 to 94, and became sick between either June 6, 2014, to March 9, 2015, or May 4, 2015, to Oct. 29, 2015, the agency said. "


I think there's a good chance that the water issue and Legionnaires' disease outbreak are related.

Consider the following bar chart. The big red arrow indicates the switch to Flint River water. The rise in instances of the disease is obvious. It's not conclusive, but worth looking into.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> The city of Flint made choices. Turns out they were bad choices. Hence my example..



Um no. 

The governor ,EM,waterplant manager and perhaps some of the employees made bad choices. 

"The city" as you use it is a abstract idea not a real person capable of choices.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Why would Obama refuse to consider it a disaster? Wasn't he just there? &#128543;


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

Well the largest hospital in the are ( McClaren ) has said the noticed the increase in legennolla with the bad water. Found it in their own water supplied from the city. Confirmed with other local hospital. As many say the state should be absolved as this is a local issue. But the state treasure had to sign off on the switch due to the EM handling the city. Sorry people but I do hold all the elected officials involved responsible for this crisis. But none will pay the price. So few so far have, sacrificial ones. We deserve better. Nobody should drink poisoned water, especially in Michigan when we are surrounded by clean water!


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

http://nbc25news.com/news/local/lansings-utility-nearly-done-eliminating-lead-water-lines

"LANSING &#8212; Lansing's municipal utility says it's nearly eliminated lead water service lines since concerns in 2004 prompted it to launch a massive program to replace them with copper lines by 2017."

The only question is why did it only become a concern in 2004?

Which also begs the question why did Flint never Address its issues with Lead supply lines?

Like I pointed out this should of never happened, Had the City Goverment been looking out for the Citizens, Over 30 years ago... 

Infrastructure could of been replaced, like Lansing has under taken.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

||Downhome|| said:


> http://nbc25news.com/news/local/lansings-utility-nearly-done-eliminating-lead-water-lines
> 
> "LANSING â Lansing's municipal utility says it's nearly eliminated lead water service lines since concerns in 2004 prompted it to launch a massive program to replace them with copper lines by 2017."
> 
> ...


You undoubtedly posted this to make a point, but the point is unclear. Does the point have something to do with how they should proceed with the handling of the lead crisis, or are you just pointing out mistakes made by democrats in the past?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> You undoubtedly posted this to make a point, but the point is unclear. Does the point have something to do with how they should proceed with the handling of the lead crisis, or are you just pointing out mistakes made by democrats in the past?


The point is crystal clear. The only way democrats can run a city is into the ground. They do it most everywhere they are in power for any length of time. History proves this.


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## Breezy833 (Jun 17, 2013)

I live in Flint. I can tell you first hand that I initially thought all the people crying about the water, we're just people scared and uneducated about the situation. I have seen many a bath tub filled with water the color of urine, and darker. I thought it was like the rust that you see from wells without softners.

It was questioned in a post a while back : why don't we just go back to Detroit water. The EM sold the pipeline to detroit, we can't go back. National gaurd delivered water to my house today. I don't think this is the solution to the problem, and I wish all the money for this water was spent on better pipeline. Our infastructure has been a buck passed to the next idiot in line for decades. I have no idea how to fix it. Pulling up and replacing every pipeline is too costly for wealthy cities, they can't do that here. This water problem started when I got pregnant, and I can say with solom resolution, I have never given my son a bath without caution. I'm scared for him. I think that snyder knew. He knew the water quality was bad, whether he knew it was toxic is up for debate. Darnell Early did operate at times without the support of the city, and the EM before him wanted to raise taxes for street lights, not infastructure. 

I see a lot of people out there making assumptions about who we are, what do we deserve. We're not all bad.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Oops.

http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2016/...ater-switch-was-not-about-money-records-show/



> The Flint water crisis that led to thousands of people being poisoned began because state officials maintained it would save the cash-strapped city money by disconnecting from the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department (DWSD) and using a different source.
> But it turns out, DWSD offered the state-controlled city a deal that would have saved Flint more money by staying with Detroit.
> An e-mail obtained by _Motor City Muckraker_ shows the deal would have saved the city $800 million over 30 years, which was 20% more inexpensive than switching to the Karegnondi Water Authority.....


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

For all the wrangling over wether the state or the city was responsible for the switch to the Flint river water it comes down to the state taking control. In the emails that Snyder has released of his own his underlings admit that with the state treasurer at the Andy Dillion had signed off on the move as required by law. They admit this is a problem for the state. Govener Snyder only released his emails and won't require the underlings to release theirs. 
That is a problem. 
Also the LD problem was traced back to the water by the local hospitals as it was cultured from water and ice machines within the hospitals. They have since increased their own filtering and adding sanitizing agents to the water.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Robotron said:


> For all the wrangling over wether the state or the city was responsible for the switch to the Flint river water it comes down to the state taking control. In the emails that Snyder has released of his own his underlings admit that with the state treasurer at the Andy Dillion had signed off on the move as required by law. They admit this is a problem for the state. Govener Snyder only released his emails and won't require the underlings to release theirs.
> That is a problem.
> Also the LD problem was traced back to the water by the local hospitals as it was cultured from water and ice machines within the hospitals. They have since increased their own filtering and adding sanitizing agents to the water.


Clear that the State Treasurer approved spending the money, but not so clear who requested and why. There is an intense investigation going on now and I'm sure a whole lot of details that none of us know will surface.

But, for now, I'll stay with what was reported earlier, the Mayor and City Council voted to go to the other pipeline. That pipeline wasn't ready. Detroit Water, miffed over their leaving, gave Flint a year notice to leave. That wasn't enough time, the new pipeline wouldn't be ready. So, the City Council, with the Emergency Manager, met several times, looking for a solution. The new pipeline wasn't ready, their contract with Detroit was about to expire, the Flint Water Treatment plant had, for many years, been a back-up source for water. Not like there was any other choice. Melt snow?

Since the Flint River water left the treatment plant perfectly safe to drink, isn't the error in all this simply not adding enough of another chemical, phosphorous, to the water to maintain the pipe's inner coating? Aren't the water treatment workers hired by the Head of Flint's Public Works Department? Wasn't that Supervisor hired by the Mayor and City Council? While I'm guessing the group of civil engineers or water treatment chemists that sought employment in Flint, were not from the top of their class, Snyder didn't hire them. Follow the trail from the water treatment workers all the way back and you get the Mayor and City Council, not the EM or State. If you want to cast a wider net, the State's DEQ, often criticized for heavy handedness, stepped to softly and the EPA, also known to over regulate, under-regulated. 

It is not uncommon for hospitals to re-treat their water. LD is in lots of places. People don't get LD from drinking water.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

Say want you want but when Mclaren says they cultured it from the water and ice machines and other hospitals in the area did the same. I would call that a smoking gun. I trust Mclaren' reports over somebody trying to cover their rear end. GM engine plant disconnected due to rusting issues with the city water that was used in parts washers. The emails released show that the state knew they had the problem due to sign off by Dillion. And they were working to minimize their exposure.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Since the Flint River water left the treatment plant perfectly safe to drink, isn't the error in all this simply not adding enough of another chemical, phosphorous, to the water to maintain the pipe's inner coating? Aren't the water treatment workers hired by the Head of Flint's Public Works Department?


We hit on this topic earlier. It's not clear to me whether the water operators in Flint have the background for making an engineering decision like that. Depending on their training level, the water operators might only be qualified to carry out procedures already specified by an engineer. This may have been more the kind of thing the county engineer would be responsible for.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

The infrastructure in this entire country is crumbling. When the interstate system was built..bridges..etc..had a 50 year life span. Water and sewer systems are crumbling. The entire country needs a renovation. Bridge and road engineering is completely different today. 2.5 trillion dollar renovation.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

Yes but we scream that's it's the Democrats fault. They run every thing into the ground. Words that I see often here. And yet in Michigan the Republicans have had total control at the state level and we still have the same results. Roads are a disaster but we can't raise taxes to fix them because of Grovers pledge. Bridges failing but Grovers there to challenge them with a primary run of somebody if they vote to raise taxes. What I would like to know who signs my goverement elected officials pay check? The citizens or Grover? Time to take our goverment back and make it work for all of us. We have plenty of problems we need to fix and let's start with the elected ones. We can find common ground and work out from there. One stitch at time.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

If I knew nothing about LD and heard it was found in the water, I'd jump to the same conclusion that it came from the Flint River and everyone that came down with LD got it from the Water.
The bacteria that you get LD from is all over the place. It is in soil, and water all over. You get LD from inhaling it.
It isn't at all like the only places the bacteria exists is the Flint River. Several of the people that got LD had no connection to Flint water.

If you a common cold. We passed each other in a store. The next day, I came down with a cold. I might be able to conjecture that you gave me the cold virus. But without touch, unlikely. Plus there are hundreds of other places I could have contracted a cold. But if we simply look at you and I, we might convince ourselves you gave it to me.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Since the Flint River water left the treatment plant perfectly safe to drink, isn't the error in all this simply not adding enough of another chemical, phosphorous, to the water to maintain the pipe's inner coating? Aren't the water treatment workers hired by the Head of Flint's Public Works Department? Wasn't that Supervisor hired by the Mayor and City Council? While I'm guessing the group of civil engineers or water treatment chemists that sought employment in Flint, were not from the top of their class, Snyder didn't hire them. Follow the trail from the water treatment workers all the way back and you get the Mayor and City Council, not the EM or State. If you want to cast a wider net, the State's DEQ, often criticized for heavy handedness, stepped to softly and the EPA, also known to over regulate, under-regulated.
> .



Why the disconnect in the middle of the chain ?
You might be right that the mayor and council hired the water employees. 
BUT 
The point of the Em being there was to watch over them and keep them from making mistakes. When the choice to use flint river water was made he approved it. 
His approving it made it his problem. At that point they all had the responceability to make sure the people they were telling to do the job had the skills to do it safely.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Why the disconnect in the middle of the chain ?
> You might be right that the mayor and council hired the water employees.
> BUT
> The point of the Em being there was to watch over them and keep them from making mistakes. When the choice to use flint river water was made he approved it.
> His approving it made it his problem. At that point they all had the responceability to make sure the people they were telling to do the job had the skills to do it safely.


The Emergency Manager was brought in to do what? Manage Flint's Emergency. When he took over it was the financial emergency he was assigned to address, root out corruption, reduce wasteful spending. If he were hired to address Flint's water system, then I'd say he failed. But you don't run a city like Flint with one man in charge of everything, it doesn't work like that.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> But you don't run a city like Flint with one man in charge of everything, it doesn't work like that.


By Michigan law, that's exactly how it works.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> If I knew nothing about *LD* and heard it was found in the water, I'd jump to the same conclusion that it came from the Flint River and everyone that came down with *LD* got it from the Water.


"LD" stands for "learning disability"
The chemical symbol for lead is Pb


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> "LD" stands for "learning disability"
> The chemical symbol for lead is Pb


From context, I thought LD referred to Legionnaires' Disease.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

EM in Detriot was a one man show. He had the power to cancel contracts, let new ones, and alter labor agreements. Ask the people who ended up losing chunks of retirement and health benifets. Either take the deal offered or lose it all. Highland Park, Pontiac, Ecourse I believe was another one. Plenty on the west side of the state. EM's are judge and executioner when it comes to the financials. There is no appeal.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> "LD" stands for "learning disability"
> The chemical symbol for lead is Pb



Or of course in other places it could stand for long distance, loving daughter, last dance ,large dog etc.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Yea, I was thinking we were discussing Legionnaires' Disease, too.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Or of course *in other places* it could stand for long distance, loving daughter, last dance ,large dog etc.


The point is it doesn't stand for "lead" *in this context,* since we aren't "in other places" 



> Nevada:
> From context, I thought LD referred to Legionnaires' Disease


I thought they were still talking about "water treatment" and the Lead problem while Legionnaire's is generally found in stagnant water open to the atmosphere.

It shouldn't be in treated tap water


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

There Id a spike in legionaries disease that has occurred in the area. The local major hospital has found it in the water and in ice machines through out the hospital. Other hospitals have reported the same. They increased their own chemical treatment and have added additional filtration to the incoming water from Flint.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I thought they were still talking about "water treatment" and the Lead problem while Legionnaire's is generally found in stagnant water open to the atmosphere.
> 
> It shouldn't be in treated tap water


No, it shouldn't be in tap water. But there is a sharp correlation between switching water sources and the Legionnaires' disease breakout. The correlation isn't conclusive proof but bears looking into.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The point is it doesn't stand for "lead" *in this context,* since we aren't "in other places"
> 
> 
> I thought they were still talking about "water treatment" and the Lead problem while Legionnaire's is generally found in stagnant water open to the atmosphere.
> ...



So you didn't think LD could stand for legionnaires disease because it shouldn't be in treated tap water. 
That would seem to infer that you think lead should be. 
Wanna clear that up ?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> So you didn't think LD could stand for legionnaires disease because it shouldn't be in treated tap water.
> That would seem to infer that you think lead should be.
> Wanna clear that up ?


You should look up "infer"
I already answered the other part so I'll let you figure it out


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Show me proof that someone from the water department, civil engineer, city manager, anyone went to the Emergency Manager and told him, " Due to the low ph of the Flint River, we need your approval to spend $300,000. on phosphorous, otherwise there will be lead exposure in the water." and he denied the request.

The Emergency Manager was brought in to solve the financial crisis in Flint. He is not in charge of insuring every street light is on, where every pothole is in the city, what brand of floor wax they use in every city building, who is working the night shift at the jail, which plow trucks got their oil changed last week. Likewise, he isn't telling the workers at the water treatment plant how to do their job. The water leaving the water plant is clean, safe and tastes good. The water passed the tests for water quality.

I doubt most financial experts are also qualified in water science. It is entirely reasonable to leave that expertise to those experts in that field.

To expect the Emergency Manager to know that there was a phosphorous coating, or know that lead service lines existed in Flint or anticipate the known end result, assumes more clairvoyance than is known to exist in humans. Just because the installation of an Emergency Manager, totally unelected ,rankles your spirit, doesn't allow you to dump all the problems of this troubled city onto him alone.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Show me proof that someone from the water department, civil engineer, city manager, anyone went to the Emergency Manager and told him, " Due to the low ph of the Flint River, we need your approval to spend $300,000. on phosphorous, otherwise there will be lead exposure in the water." and he denied the request.


Did the emergency manager ask? A good manager would have inquired what the technical consequences of switching water sources might be.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Did the emergency manager ask? A good manager would have inquired what the technical consequences of switching water sources might be.


Switching sources wasn't an "emergency" so why would an Emergency Manager be involved in a water treatment issue?

There are certified water treatment specialists for that


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Switching sources wasn't an "emergency" so why would an Emergency Manager be involved in a water treatment issue?
> 
> There are certified water treatment specialists for that


The emergency manager dictates everything that city government does, not just emergencies.

That was an engineering decision, not a decision for a certified water operator.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Nevada said:


> The emergency manager *dictates everything that city government does*, not just emergencies.
> 
> That was an engineering decision, not a decision for a certified water operator.


I thought that was the mayor's job.

Emergency Managers here manage actual emergencies

I think any chemicals added to the water falls under the water treatment Dept


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I thought that was the mayor's job.
> 
> Emergency Managers here manage actual emergencies
> 
> I think any chemicals added to the water falls under the water treatment Dept


Technically the mayor had no job. I say "had" because emergency management was lifted April 30, 2015. Power to the mayor and city council has been restored.

Cities can't really go bankrupt in Michigan. If a city becomes insolvent to the point where they can't meet their financial obligations then an emergency manager is appointed by the governor. The emergency manager is a czar who dictates how the city is run, basically taking over all of the duties of the mayor and city council.

The water department answered directly to the emergency manager during the time when the water source was switched.

Michigan's 'emergency manager law' is unique enough to have a wikipedia page.

_An emergency manager, formerly emergency financial manager, is an official appointed by the Governor to take control of a local government under a financial emergency. A manager temporarily supplants the governing body, chief executive officer and/or chief administrative officer of the local government with the ability to remove any of the unit's elected officials. Managers have complete control over the local unit with the ability to reduce pay, outsource work, reorganize departments and modify employee contracts._
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_emergency_in_Michigan


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> An emergency manager, formerly emergency financial manager, is an official appointed by the Governor to take control of a local government *under a financial emergency.* A manager temporarily supplants the governing body, chief executive officer and/or chief administrative officer of the local government with the ability to remove any of the unit's elected officials. Managers have complete control over the local unit with the *ability to reduce pay, outsource work, reorganize departments and modify employee contracts.*
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financ...cy_in_Michigan


Water treatment doesn't seem like a "financial emergency" to me, and I see no mention of anything related to actual engineering functions aside from allocating funds during an "emergency".


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Water treatment doesn't seem like a "financial emergency" to me, and I see no mention of anything related to actual engineering functions aside from allocating funds during an "emergency".


Then perhaps the emergency manager shouldn't have ordered the switch to the Flint River. FYI, here's the order.

http://media.mlive.com/newsnow_impact/other/Water Plan Resolution.PDF


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Then perhaps the emergency manager shouldn't have ordered the switch to the Flint River. FYI, here's the order.
> 
> http://media.mlive.com/newsnow_impact/other/Water Plan Resolution.PDF


THe Emergency Manager approved the funds to do what the Mayor and City Council had agreed to do. But it really wasn't much of a choice. The City Council had voted to leave Detroit Water and go to a new pipeline. Detroit sent an "eviction notice" giving Flint a year to get off their water system. What other choice does a cash strapped city have? The Flint Water Treatment Plant had been the back up water source for many years.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> THe Emergency Manager approved the funds to do what the Mayor and City Council had agreed to do. But it really wasn't much of a choice. The City Council had voted to leave Detroit Water and go to a new pipeline. Detroit sent an "eviction notice" giving Flint a year to get off their water system. What other choice does a cash strapped city have? The Flint Water Treatment Plant had been the back up water source for many years.


Actually, they voted to get Lake Huron Water using the KWA pipeline instead of from Detroit starting in mid-2016. The Flint River thing was evidently a short term answer. But there is no record of the city council voting to use Flint River water.

_Although the Flint City Council voted in March 2013 in support of moving to the KWA pipeline &#8212; a new pipeline that would serve the region with Lake Huron water &#8212; *there is no record that the council voted to use the Flint River* as a short-term drinking water source._
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/ex_emergency_manager_earley_sa.html


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Technically the mayor had no job. I say "had" because emergency management was lifted April 30, 2015. Power to the mayor and city council has been restored.
> 
> Cities can't really go bankrupt in Michigan. If a city becomes insolvent to the point where they can't meet their financial obligations then an emergency manager is appointed by the governor. The emergency manager is a czar who dictates how the city is run, basically taking over all of the duties of the mayor and city council.
> 
> ...


I think the part that is missing in some people's minds is the purpose of all this. It is to get a city's finances in order. In each school system and city that had run itself hopelessly into debt, the Emergency Manager put a stop to wasteful spending, like heating, maintaining and staffing empty schools, dozens of people drawing paychecks for years and never going to work. The employees pensions were stolen from with no hope of ever returning the funds. Maybe you can change the janitor's pay from $25 an hour to $12. Close and sell a school building.
These guys are financial experts, not water treatment scientists. 
In a short few years, Emergency Managed to stop the graft, cut the losses and get Detroit on steady footing. It was hard. Many lost their jobs, most lost wages, all lost some of the pensions they had worked for. 

But when a white Republican Gov sends a Republican appointee in to cut pay and cut benefits, close offices in a Black, Democrat community, they are going to all be looking for any mistake. Turns out they landed a whopper in Flint.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> I think the part that is missing in some people's minds is the purpose of all this. It is to get a city's finances in order. In each school system and city that had run itself hopelessly into debt, the Emergency Manager put a stop to wasteful spending, like heating, maintaining and staffing empty schools, dozens of people drawing paychecks for years and never going to work. The employees pensions were stolen from with no hope of ever returning the funds. Maybe you can change the janitor's pay from $25 an hour to $12. Close and sell a school building.
> These guys are financial experts, not water treatment scientists.
> In a short few years, Emergency Managed to stop the graft, cut the losses and get Detroit on steady footing. It was hard. Many lost their jobs, most lost wages, all lost some of the pensions they had worked for.
> 
> But when a white Republican Gov sends a Republican appointee in to cut pay and cut benefits, close offices in a Black, Democrat community, *they are going to all be looking for any mistake. Turns out they landed a whopper in Flint.*


I'll say! LOL

If you screw up by giving lead poisoning to an entire city, you can expect someone to point it out as a mistake.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Show me proof that someone from the water department, civil engineer, city manager, anyone went to the Emergency Manager and told him, " Due to the low ph of the Flint River, we need your approval to spend $300,000. on phosphorous, otherwise there will be lead exposure in the water." and he denied it.
> 
> I doubt most financial experts are also qualified in water science. It is entirely reasonable to leave that expertise to those experts in that field.
> .



If he isn't qualified in water science he shouldn't make decisions in that field should he ?

What makes you think anyone in the cities employe knew enough to tell him that he was making a mistake ?


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Actually, they voted to get Lake Huron Water using the KWA pipeline starting in mid-2016. The Flint River thing was evidently a short term answer. But there is no record of the city council voting to use Flint River water.
> 
> _Although the Flint City Council voted in March 2013 in support of moving to the KWA pipeline â a new pipeline that would serve the region with Lake Huron water â *there is no record that the council voted to use the Flint River* as a short-term drinking water source._
> http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/ex_emergency_manager_earley_sa.html


Yes, they voted to go to the KWA a couple years ago. Detroit Water retaliated by giving Flint a year to get off their Detroit Water. Sort of an eviction notice. 
Flint was stuck without any choices. They naturally went to their backup source, the river. The Emergency Manager didn't have a part in building a Flint River Treatment plant. He simply approved the funds to re-connect. The Water Treatment Plant was already there. Flint didn't have the time nor the need to build a Water Treatment plant. It was ready and waiting.

If you are in a boat and it sinks, no one has to order anyone to swim to shore when there are no other choices. There would be no vote taken, everyone knows what to do, the only part to discuss would be can everyone swim.

In several meetings, the Mayor, City Council and Emergency Manager planned to use the Flint River. The Emergency Manager didn't just hire an engineering team and figure out the cost of the switch on his own., without the elected officials being in on it.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> The Emergency Manager didn't have a part in building a Flint River Treatment plant. He simply approved the funds to re-connect.


Yes, the emergency manager ABSOLUTELY did approve construction to get water from the Flint River. Here is his order.

http://media.mlive.com/newsnow_impact/other/Water Plan Resolution.PDF

Here is the construction company bragging about the project.

http://www.lan-inc.com/portfolio/genesee-county-lake-huron-water-supply-intake/

If you have evidence of the city council voting on getting water from the Flint River, I'd like to see it.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Did the emergency manager ask? A good manager would have inquired what the technical consequences of switching water sources might be.


Everyone said it was do-able. "Can Flint make Flint River water safe?" is a reasonable question. "Is there anything different about Flint River water that would damage the service lines in the older sections of the city and what can we do to prevent that?" are now the obvious questions no Emergency Manager could have thought to ask. In hindsight, wow, how wonderful that would be.

But the workers treating the water were making safe water. DEQ was getting clear samples. The EPA had no concerns. 

But I saw it from the start. Water experts showing the good water, while low income, angry about the Emergency Manager, Black people holding jars of cloudy water. I thought they were lying. How could clean water go through the city's pipes and they have dirty water to show. Then, when the Flint Health Department got there, the water was pure and clear. 

So, while working on Union contracts, wage reductions, blight abatement, balancing the cost of a police department between a city that's broke and a city with the nation's highest homicide rate, following decades of wasteful spending, made worse by property values in free fall, the Emergency Manager failed to know that phosphorous was needed in the water treatment process. All the experts missed it, so it is his fault?


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> obvious questions no Emergency Manager could have thought to ask. In hindsight, wow, how wonderful that would be.


He wouldn't think to ask what the technical consequences might be? That's pretty lame.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Yes, the emergency manager ABSOLUTELY did approve construction to get water from the Flint River. Here is his order.
> 
> http://media.mlive.com/newsnow_impact/other/Water Plan Resolution.PDF
> 
> ...


 I said, "The Emergency Manager didn't have a part in building a Flint River Treatment plant. He simply approved the funds to re-connect."

The funds to reconnect is the construction you speak of. He approved the funds to reconnect. Those funds would be to construct the connection. Plans to use Flint River water were made decades ago when the Water Treatment plant was built, using funds the Mayor and City Council approved decades ago. River water changes more than Great Lakes water, effected more by seasonal changes, heavy rains, etc. So, like so many other neighboring communities, using Detroit water was an obvious choice. But as Detroit fought itself out of financial ruin, rate hikes pushed communities to re-think this arrangement. So a new pipeline was planned. Flint, a late comer to the plan, voted to leave Detroit Water.

It is very clear that Flint Mayor and city Council voted to go to this new pipeline. They would have preferred to stay on Detroit water until the new pipeline was complete. BTW, the pipeline is ahead of schedule and under budget. But Detroit didn't extend their contract. The Mayor and City Council along with the Emergency Manager held several meeting to discuss options, but there really weren't options, unless take it or leave it is an option.

But this isn't really about who voted to use the Flint water treatment plant and it's only source, the Flint River. The mistakes that lead Flint to have brown water and reports of elevated lead, are the real questions. For some, Gov. Snyder should have anticipated the change in ph of the Flint water would erode the layers of phosphorous that Detroit was adding to the water over the years, ultimately exposing lead. Personally, I think the guy that was supervising the water treatment plant didn't know enough about water treatment to anticipate this problem, even after he said he did.

So, now Flint is back on Detroit water. No one wants to pay their $150 a month water/sewer bill. There are filters that remove lead on most homes taps. Volunteers have done door to door deliveries of bottled water, filters and filter cartilages. A personal damage lawyer has donated a few thousand lead blood level test kits, just to help out. Many tests have been run on home water, checking for lead. Most are normal.

Most of the elevated lead levels in blood or in tap water, would have been listed as negative, years ago. Detection was once just parts per million. But now we can detect lead levels in parts per billion. BTW, that's a thousand times better.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> He wouldn't think to ask what the technical consequences might be? That's pretty lame.


Technical consequences? Sure. The folks at the water treatment plant were asked if they could produce safe water for the city of Flint.

Did the Captain of the Titanic asked the engineers that designed it if it could survive a glancing blow from an iceberg that sliced through a third of the ship's sealed compartments? Lame?

On 9/11 did any of the Captains ask the Arab passengers why they were carrying box cutters? Lame?

Hindsight, my friend, is 20/20. You can Monday morning quarterback all you want. Mistakes were made. 

I think lots of little, unintentional mistakes created a situation where a few places had elevated lead levels. I understand that it is not uncommon for inner city children to have elevated lead levels, from a variety of sources. Still not clear how many, if any people suffered any lasting effects. Local, State and Federal help poured in. Support from surrounding communities and national groups and individuals stepped in to help.

It appears that you believe that an Emergency Manager, while working almost exclusively on the finances of Flint should have anticipated and then engineered a fix, before a problem was known. Also, since a Republican Gov. appointed this fail-to see-into-the -future Emergency Manager, he should be tried as a murderer of children. About right?

Letting these mostly Black cities fail would be seen as racist. Sending funds to support a better Police force into the Murder Capital of the Nation just puts more young Black men in prisons. Assigning an Emergency Manager to pull them back from a bankruptcy that would leave the city in flaming, lawless ruination, is seen as government over-reach.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Personally, I think the guy that was supervising the water treatment plant didn't know enough about water treatment to anticipate this problem, even after he said he did.


You don't ask a water operator engineering questions. He knows how to carry out the tasks of coagulation, filtration, and chlorination, but he isn't qualified to design a water treatment strategy.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> It appears that you believe that an Emergency Manager, while working almost exclusively on the finances of Flint should have anticipated and then engineered a fix, before a problem was known.


No. All I'm saying is that if he's going to order a change of water source that he should ask someone what the technical consequences might be. It appears that the emergency manager assumed that water was water, so it didn't matter where the water came from.

* Did he make that assumption?
* Did he ask anyone if there were technical consequences?
* If so, then who did he ask and what was the reply?

If he didn't even bother to ask then he assumes complete responsibility for his actions.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> No. All I'm saying is that if he's going to order a change of water source that he should ask someone what the technical consequences might be. It appears that the emergency manager assumed that water was water, so it didn't matter where the water came from.
> 
> * Did he make that assumption?
> * Did he ask anyone if there were technical consequences?
> ...


I'm afraid we cannot continue to discuss this if you keep making the change to the Flint River his orders. :hair 

He approved the funds that the City of Flint needed to make the switch. It wasn't his plan. There were no other choices. He conferred with the city of Flint experts, the Water Department. They told him no problem. The City Council were all on board with it. Way back when they voted to go to the new pipeline, the Mayor was the only dissenting vote, on record as saying she wanted to go to Flint River, but knew her vote wouldn't matter whatever way she voted. as it turned out, she got her wish.

No he didn't make the assumption that water is water.
He asked the Flint experts if they could supply clean safe drinking water to the citizens of Flint.
They told him no problem, they could do it. It would require more frequent testing as river water varies more than Lake Huron water. The DEQ and EPA were in this from the start. It is believed high level people in the DEQ and EPA have resigned over the mistakes their staff made in Flint.

Sure, in hindsight, he could have disbelieved the Flint Water Department and hired an independent crew of experts. But not a good idea when you believe the on site experts and cannot afford to reach out to more experts without reason to disbelieve the Flint Water Department. Easy to assume that between the water treatment experts, DEQ and EPA, that situation was handled.

Even if outside experts came in, all they could do is test the water quality at the treatment plant and all the tests would show the water was safe.

No one is going to accept a drinking glass brought in from a disgruntled citizen as any sort of proof of a problem. In hindsight, more attention should have been given to those claims. But this was between the water treatment plant and a few concerned citizens. When their water was tested, later, the water was clear. One could have believed the complainer was lying or believed that after the water ran for a moment it cleared up and there was a problem.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> He conferred with the city of Flint experts, the Water Department. They told him no problem.


OK, good enough. That means the emergency manager is off the hook.

But I've never read about water experts giving him the green light. Do you have a reference for that?


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> OK, good enough. That means the emergency manager is off the hook.
> 
> But I've never read about water experts giving him the green light. Do you have a reference for that?


WJR has interviewed most of the people involved. Do to my job, I'm able to listen to either the morning 4 or 5 hours or the replay in the afternoon. Interesting stuff. Hearing a conversation is way better than an editorial.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> WJR has interviewed most of the people involved. Do to my job, I'm able to listen to either the morning 4 or 5 hours or the replay in the afternoon. Interesting stuff. Hearing a conversation is way better than an editorial.


Do you remember who gave the green light?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Breaking news-

According to newly discovered emails, Michigan officials were trucking clean water to a state building in Flint in January 2015, long before they acknowledged to residents that the city had a contamination problem.


http://www.motherjones.com/environm...-started-trucking-clean-water-state-buildings


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Snyder is toast.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

But remember it wasn't about the money!


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> WJR has interviewed most of the people involved. Do to my job, I'm able to listen to either the morning 4 or 5 hours or the replay in the afternoon. Interesting stuff. Hearing a conversation is way better than an editorial.


But you see, the thing is that I've read an allegation that this decision was made without engineering advice. I haven't come across anything that refutes that except your word.

I'm willing to let the emergency manager off the hook, right here and now, if he acted on engineering advice. I just need to know who it was and what his credentials are.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

This kind of stuff ruins many a private company. 
Some body from management school has learned all about "product" and thinks everything is interchangeable. 
But it's not. 
I've noticed that places that produce "product" are rarely competitive long.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> Breaking news-
> 
> According to newly discovered emails, Michigan officials were trucking clean water to a state building in Flint in January 2015, long before they acknowledged to residents that the city had a contamination problem.
> 
> ...


I don't see how the governor is going to live this down.


----------



## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Any mother jones link has to be disected.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Here's another stating the same thing. 

The Snyder administration quietly trucked in water to state buildings in January of 2015 â ten months prior to Governor Snyder publicly admitting there was reason for concern in Flint, according to a document obtained by Progress Michigan.

http://www.progressmichigan.org/201...ean-water-for-state-building-in-january-2015/


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Here's another stating the same thing.
> 
> The Snyder administration quietly trucked in water to state buildings in January of 2015 &#8211; ten months prior to Governor Snyder publicly admitting there was reason for concern in Flint, according to a document obtained by Progress Michigan.
> 
> http://www.progressmichigan.org/201...ean-water-for-state-building-in-january-2015/


I'll start by saying I know nothing about Progress Michigan. A light comes on when I hear something like " Snyder Administration" because it is meaningless. It could be his Administrative Assistant or it could be some State worker dumping trash at a campground, 500 miles from the State Capitol. It implies Snyder's people, so he should be aware of it.

I wish I could see the letter Flint sent to DEQ. While the article is quite damming, the emails really don't say much.

Lots of office buildings have bottled water. Hanging around the old water cooler is a common example. The timing couldn't have been worse, though.

The head of DEQ did resign. This story might be an indication of the disconnect between DEQ and the Gov.

It does look like the names on the email are real employees of DEQ. Just can't take much stock in what they are saying until I can see the memo Flint sent. I've mentioned a few times that Flint water did have some chemical in it due to chlorination and they had to get that back with requirements. It was a while ago. This could be about that problem, not the current lead concerns.

There is a report going around now, listing the other Michigan cities with higher lead levels than Flint. I'll try and track it down.

If they ordered a couple water coolers for what few state offices there are in Flint, it hardly rises to "Trucking in water". Quietly? How do other places make deliveries? Sirens? Ticker-tape?

While a lot of progress has been made, in a memo from early December, about two months ago:
"In the third quarter of 2010, 8.3 percent of Flint children 6 and under showed elevated blood lead levels. The figure gradually decreased to 4.1 percent in the third quarter of 2013. During the same months in 2014, the figure increased to 7.5 percent and decreased to 6.4 percent in the third quarter of 2015." 

Is this proof of a water crisis?

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...gan-cities-higher-lead-levels-flint/79438144/
"Elevated blood-lead levels are seen in a higher percentage of children in parts of Grand Rapids, Jackson, Detroit, Saginaw, Muskegon, Holland and several other cities, proof that the scourge of lead has not been eradicated despite decades of public health campaigns and hundreds of millions of dollars spent to find and eliminate it."


----------



## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

https://www.facebook.com/ascenciosbarbershop.ascencio/videos/816015631854103/


----------



## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> Here's another stating the same thing.
> 
> The Snyder administration quietly trucked in water to state buildings in January of 2015 â ten months prior to Governor Snyder publicly admitting there was reason for concern in Flint, according to a document obtained by Progress Michigan.
> 
> http://www.progressmichigan.org/201...ean-water-for-state-building-in-january-2015/



Ok Gov Snyder had time to arrange this...

No...

The Offices arranged it. 

"I have a little dreidel. I made it out of clay.
And when it's dry and ready, then dreidel I shall play.
Oh dreidel, dreidel, dreidel, I made it out of clay.
Oh dreidel, dreidel, dreidel, then dreidel I shall play.

It has a lovely body, with legs so short and thin.
When it gets all tired, it drops and then I win!
Dreidel, dreidel, dreidel, with leg so short and thin.
Oh dreidel, dreidel, dreidel, it drops and then I win!

My dreidel's always playful. It loves to dance and spin.
A happy game of dreidel, come play now let's begin.
Oh dreidel, dreidel, dreidel, it loves to dance and spin.
Oh dreidel, dreidel, dreidel. Come play now let's begin.

I have a little dreidel. I made it out of clay.
When it's dry and ready, dreidel I shall play.
Oh dreidel, dreidel, dreidel, I made you out of clay.
Oh dreidel, dreidel, dreidel, then dreidel I shall play."


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> The email was sent just days after the city sent out an advisory about *high levels of trihalomethanes* in its water but maintained that, for healthy individuals, the water was safe to drink. Residents had been reporting smelly, tainted water and adverse health conditions related to it since shortly after Flint switched water sources in April 2014.
> 
> Until October 2015, the administration of Gov. Rick Snyder maintained that it was unaware of *high levels of lead *in Flint's water. Progress Michigan's Lonnie Scott says the emails "blow a hole in the governor's timeline for when they knew or started to have concerns about Flint water. They were helping state employees while telling everyone else that there was nothing to worry about."


So the E-mails and water coolers were about one problem, and the lead is a separate problem, but the article jumps from one to the other as if they are one and the same


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

I'm watching the news.
Semi trucks of water from Indpls and volunteers headed to Flint.
One of the volunteers went above and beyond and delivered to residents DOOR at a housing project.

The woman they interviewed was COMPLAINING that she JUST can't be going to the firestation every day to get her FREE water, that someone needs to deliver it too her.

What?

Hey, thank you so much young man for delivering this water, I appreciate the break from having to walk 2 blocks to the firestation. Thank you so much for driving 5 hours from your home to help. Thank you so much.......

NOPE.........just whining and complaining about the free help you're getting.
Sickening


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I'm watching the news.
> Semi trucks of water from Indpls and volunteers headed to Flint.
> One of the volunteers went above and beyond and delivered to residents DOOR at a housing project.
> 
> ...


I'm guessing you might complain a bit yourself if you were expected to continue paying for water you couldn't use for much else than flushing your toilet and had to trek any distance to get one of life's essentials. I don't know this woman's health or physical state or how far she lives from the water distribution centers but I do know that water weighs about 7.5 lbs per gallon and not everyone lives within an easy walk to a fire station. Communal wells and women walking with earthen jugs of potable water balanced on their heads is a delightful picture in a National Geographic magazine spread. I just never thought I'd need to see such images in my own country.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

mmoetc said:


> I'm guessing you might complain a bit yourself if you were expected to continue paying for water you couldn't use for much else than flushing your toilet and had to trek any distance to get one of life's essentials.


She has indoor plumbing, her toilet flushes, she doesn't have to use an outhouse.



> I don't know this woman's health or physical state or how far she lives from the water distribution centers but I do know that water weighs about 7.5 lbs per gallon and not everyone lives within an easy walk to a fire station.


Completely able bodied.
So get a shopping cart, partner up with other residents, act like you are a human part of a community, help each other?
2 blocks.
It's 2 blocks to the fire station.



> Communal wells and women walking with earthen jugs of potable water balanced on their heads is a delightful picture in a National Geographic magazine spread. I just never thought I'd need to see such images in my own country.


Agree that someone should be held accountable for this situation.
Agree this is ridiculious that the water is only good for flushing a toilet.

My point?
How about a little gratitude for a young man that drove 5 hours to bring FREE CLEAN WATER and delivered it to HER DOOR???
Not one thank you, just wa wa wa give me more give me more.
Not one thank you.
Not one.

It's the level of ingratitude and entitlement that I am speaking of.


----------



## Breezy833 (Jun 17, 2013)

I said thank you


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> She has indoor plumbing, her toilet flushes, she doesn't have to use an outhouse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We've had people driving from my area to flint with water, also. Every news report I've seen has shown residents grateful and thanking the volunteers. If this woman didnt she deserves some chastisement.

But that's a minor issue. Why are these volunteers even neccessary? Is it really a feeling of entitlement to expect that when you pay your water bill each month youll get what you pay for? Clean, potab&#322;e water you can drink, cook and bathe with? Why should this woman be expected to go two blocks, or even two feet, to get water she can drink? Water she's paid for and will continue to have to pay for. http://www.wilx.com/home/headlines/...g-Water-Bills-364469231.html?device=phone&c=y

Flint is in Michigan. A northern climate with sub freezing temperatures this time of year and a major snowstorm headed their way next week. Tell me how you'd feel if you had to make the trek every day for potable water you had contracted for and continue to pay for each and every day. I'd say she is entitled to have what she's paying for delivered to her. I'm guessing you'd feel the same way.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Haven't read all posts.

Has anyone kept a total of all the $ "Flint" is getting?


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I'm watching the news.
> Semi trucks of water from Indpls and volunteers headed to Flint.
> One of the volunteers went above and beyond and delivered to residents DOOR at a housing project.
> 
> ...


Wounder if She's the woman that drove up in her Cad. Esclade to get free diapers on TV....


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

mmoetc said:


> I'm guessing you might complain a bit yourself if you were expected to continue paying for water you couldn't use for much else than flushing your toilet and had to trek any distance to get one of life's essentials. I don't know this woman's health or physical state or how far she lives from the water distribution centers but I do know that water weighs about 7.5 lbs per gallon and not everyone lives within an easy walk to a fire station. Communal wells and women walking with earthen jugs of potable water balanced on their heads is a delightful picture in a National Geographic magazine spread. I just never thought I'd need to see such images in my own country.


It should be noted that because someone 'looks' able bodied doesn't mean they are. 

To the rest of the world, I look completely able bodied but since my accident, my ankle is so unstable that I've been assured that if I lift anything more than 5 lbs, it and myachilles tendon will literally explode.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

wr said:


> It should be noted that because someone 'looks' able bodied doesn't mean they are.
> 
> 
> 
> To the rest of the world, I look completely able bodied but since my accident, my ankle is so unstable that I've been assured that if I lift anything more than 5 lbs, it and myachilles tendon will literally explode.



I've seen this at charities a lot someone looks fine so they are just blown off without help or others talk behind their back. 
One guy I know looks like a lumberjack in his twenties. He has a vein condition so bad he is not supposed to get up by himself let alone walk or carry a bag of groceries. 
But he looks fine.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> I've seen this at charities a lot someone looks fine so they are just blown off without help or others talk behind their back.
> One guy I know looks like a lumberjack in his twenties. He has a vein condition so bad he is not supposed to get up by himself let alone walk or carry a bag of groceries.
> But he looks fine.



I'm very fortunate that my community knows me well and will help before I'm forced to ask but my friend has MS and I'm shocked at how she's treated.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

mmoetc said:


> We've had people driving from my area to flint with water, also. Every news report I've seen has shown residents grateful and thanking the volunteers. If this woman didnt she deserves some chastisement.
> 
> But that's a minor issue. Why are these volunteers even neccessary? Is it really a feeling of entitlement to expect that *when you pay your water bill* each month youll get what you pay for? Clean, potab&#322;e water you can drink, cook and bathe with? Why should this woman be expected to go two blocks, or even two feet, to get water she can drink? Water she's paid for and will continue to have to pay for. http://www.wilx.com/home/headlines/...g-Water-Bills-364469231.html?device=phone&c=y
> 
> Flint is in Michigan. A northern climate with sub freezing temperatures this time of year and a major snowstorm headed their way next week. Tell me how you'd feel if you had to make the trek every day for potable water you had contracted for and continue to pay for each and every day. I'd say she is entitled to have what she's paying for delivered to her. I'm guessing you'd feel the same way.


This woman interviewed , IS living, in the projects.
Who pays the water bill? SSI? Food Stamps? Section 8 housing?
MY taxes (that means I WORK for a living) pay that water bill......not her.
She is entitled NOTHING.

I know where Flint is; my son lived there for 2 years while playing hockey.
His team volunteered to help out with the Salvation Army to pass out Christmas gifts and food for dinner to those who didn't have money to buy their kids presents.
Car after car, reeked of weed and cigarettes.
People not getting out of their cars to help load the FREE food and presents. 
A majority saying "Is that all we get"?

I absolutely agree whoever poisoned the water should be taken to task.
It also reminds me personally just how important it is to secure my water supply and storage.
FLINT is about to go on it's ear because these people do not have a core, basic human need; Water. 
I have a feeling, it will be a long summer........


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

7thswan said:


> Wounder if She's the woman that drove up in her Cad. Esclade to get free diapers on TV....


If a man will not work, he shall not eat.
Consider the ant....


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> This woman interviewed , IS living, in the projects.
> Who pays the water bill? SSI? Food Stamps? Section 8 housing?
> MY taxes (that means I WORK for a living) pay that water bill......not her.
> She is entitled NOTHING.
> ...


Lots of assumptions, lots of anger. Have a nice day. Take a long hot bath. Drink some tap water. You're entitled to it.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

You are right!
I 'assumed' that the reporter and the news media outlet that reported the story told the truth about this woman living IN THE PROJECTS 2 blocks from the fire station giving FREE water, was true!! I am also "assuming" that the woman's comments that came out of her mouth were not coerced.

The rest, I know for a fact.

I don't drink tap water....that also is true.

Facts are just annoying little things, aren't they? Especially when facts don't back up our feelings or emotions!
Enjoy your Sunday!


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> You are right!
> I 'assumed' that the reporter and the news media outlet that reported the story told the truth about this woman living IN THE PROJECTS 2 blocks from the fire station giving FREE water, was true!! I am also "assuming" that the woman's comments that came out of her mouth were not coerced.
> 
> The rest, I know for a fact.
> ...


And I'll assume that you're reporting what you say and saw accurately. I'll assume you know this woman's state of health and who pays her bills. I'll assume the woman is angry that she has to walk two blocks in he middle of winter in Michigan to get potable water. I'll assume that all your stories of ungrateful charity recipients are true. 

But the simplest fact is that the people of Flint paid, and continue to pay, the water utility for clean, potable water to be delivered to their homes and taps. The fact is that that simple thing isn't happening. The fact is that this woman, and anyone else being unserved by this system, should be angry that the system has failed this badly. The fact is that I've never given one dime of charity expecting gratitude or thanks. 

I have my own current anger over my money being used poorly. It largely centers around the recent changes my state has made to taxation and distribution and the effect that has had on getting roads plowed in a timely manner. I'll be voicing my frustration again in a couple of days. But for today, I'll enjoy above average temps and some good friends. Thanks.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

So flintoinians should just be happy and enjoy their. Broken water system ?
Doesn't THAT sound moronic ?
Of course they should complain it's a part of getting things done.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> So flintoinians should just be happy and enjoy their. Broken water system ?
> Doesn't THAT sound moronic ?
> Of course they should complain it's a part of getting things done.


Hey friend, just in case you skimmed or didn't actually read what I said:



> I'm watching the news.
> Semi trucks of water from Indpls and volunteers headed to Flint.
> One of the volunteers went above and beyond and delivered to residents DOOR at a housing project.
> 
> ...


The news story I was referencing was about how people VOLUNTEERED to bring FREE water to Flint (5 hour drive ON THE VOLUNTEERS DIME) and how INSTEAD of this woman, being grateful for this young man DELIVERING water to her door IN THE PROJECTS, she chose to complain about how she has to walk to blocks for free water and someone should be bringing it too her.

IT WAS HER INGRATITUDE towards the volunteer, who delivered it too her door, that I was speaking about.
Not once in the interview did she say thank you to the young man who drove 5 hours and delivered the water to her door.

It would be stupid with 2 o's to think anyone would be or should be happy about poisoned water. Duh.
Yes, Flint residents should storm the steps of the government building and demand action.

No one answered my question.
WHO is paying the water bill for the people living in the PROJECTS (The government assisted living quarters)???
Is the 'land lord' paying the water bill? The land lord gets his money from the government. OR the government owns the building........
Is the water bill part of the rent, which is covered totally or almost totally by the government?

You keep on about how 'she pays her water bill' but she is getting full benny's from the government.
So how does that water bill get paid if the resident is on Full Government handouts???


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

mmoetc said:


> And I'll assume that you're reporting what you say and saw accurately. I'll assume you know this woman's state of health and who pays her bills. I'll assume the woman is angry that she has to walk two blocks in he middle of winter in Michigan to get potable water. I'll assume that all your stories of ungrateful charity recipients are true.
> 
> But the simplest fact is that the people of Flint paid, and continue to pay, the water utility for clean, potable water to be delivered to their homes and taps. The fact is that that simple thing isn't happening. The fact is that this woman, and anyone else being unserved by this system, should be angry that the system has failed this badly. The fact is that I've never given one dime of charity expecting gratitude or thanks.
> 
> I have my own current anger over my money being used poorly. It largely centers around the recent changes my state has made to taxation and distribution and the effect that has had on getting roads plowed in a timely manner. I'll be voicing my frustration again in a couple of days. But for today, I'll enjoy above average temps and some good friends. Thanks.


You don't pay for water until after it goes thru your meter. So yes, if unusable water was coming thru, I can understand refusal to pay for it. However sewer, trash pickup and the like are commonly bundled onto water bills so if the residents just quit paying anything at all, they would leave other vital city services without any funding.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MO_cows said:


> You don't pay for water until after it goes thru your meter. So yes, if unusable water was coming thru, I can understand refusal to pay for it. However sewer, trash pickup and the like are commonly bundled onto water bills so if the residents just quit paying anything at all, they would leave other vital city services without any funding.


Providing water to Flint is a government activity. It has to be paid for somehow, even if nobody uses it. You either pay for it on your water bill, or you pay for it through the general taxpayer fund. Either way it has to be paid.


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## kuriakos (Oct 7, 2005)

People are often unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered.
Forgive them anyway.

If you are kind,
people may accuse you of selfish ulterior motives.
Be kind anyway.

If you are successful,
you will win some false friends and some true enemies.
Succeed anyway.

If you are honest and frank,
people may cheat you.
Be honest and frank anyway.

What you spend years building,
someone could destroy overnight.
Build anyway.

If you find serenity and happiness,
they may be jealous.
Be happy anyway.

The good you do today,
people will often forget tomorrow.
Do good anyway.

Give the world the best you have,
and it may never be enough.
Give the best you've got anyway.

You see, 
in the final analysis it is between you and God;
it was never between you and them anyway.

-attributed to Mother Teresa


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Nevada said:


> Providing water to Flint is a government activity. It has to be paid for somehow, even if nobody uses it. You either pay for it on your water bill, or you pay for it through the general taxpayer fund. Either way it has to be paid.



You continue to ignore what I raised in prior posts (No Tax Base), and the fact no ones paying their bill for one reason or other.

So who pays?


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## Breezy833 (Jun 17, 2013)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> This woman interviewed , IS living, in the projects.
> Who pays the water bill? SSI? Food Stamps? Section 8 housing?
> MY taxes (that means I WORK for a living) pay that water bill......not her.
> She is entitled NOTHING.
> ...


Heck of a summer indeed. So here's the latest and greatest. There are thieves knocking on doors of the elderly with a case of water to try and gain access to your home. There is an emence amount of entitlement. Currently I think more people are paying their water bill then those that aren't. It was broadcasted by the news a while back that homes without running water could be investigated by cps. (That stuck in my mind) when I bought this house 7 years ago, the water rate was 30 $ including sewer. I'll have to check my bill but I don't think trash is included in that bill. My bill now is fickle. At the highest it was 150, and 90 this month. The rate increases over the years have hurt. Just 3 miles from me the neighboring city pays 100 for 3 months! 

Just a real life update from my side of the moon.


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## Breezy833 (Jun 17, 2013)

Heck of a summer indeed Laura! Thieves are now knocking on the doors of the elderly with cases of water to try and gain access to your home. There is a huge sense of entitlement here. I've met sooo many able bodied people on SSI. When I bought this house 7 years ago the monthly water bill was around 30 dollars. They have increased the rates at least 3 times. My water bill is now fickle. At the highest it was 170, and this past month 90. Sewer is included, but I think trash is paid separately from other taxes.

If your hand is covering your mouth that I BOUGHT a house here, consider this. I couldn't afford to live anywhere else. I had a dead end job, and couldn't find my way out. That has changed. 

If your the paying type, pray for this: we have found a house out of the city, and are in the process of checking it out. Pray this is the right move. Pray that an investor will buy my house ( I didn't just live here I improved it). Finally, pray that we will never be put in the position to decide if a bath is the right decision for my son. 

Just a little update from my side of the moon


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Breezy, thank you for your input, and yes, I am a praying woman and will do as you ask!!


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Brezzy your water and sewer are one bill.

Garbage is separate.

Your "water bill" gets paid out to different agency's.

The county takes care of the sewage, Detroit is now again providing water and of coarse the Water department gets a cut.

Just talked to a Friend, his Brother is a higher up in Flint Water Department. 

According to him, they expect the leaching problem to be mitigated in a month or two.

I'm unsure how long it will take for the phosphate coating to build though.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Is there a 'chemical' that can be flushed thru the system to eliminate the build up in the pipes?

If so, how long AFTER that chemical is pumped thru the system, that people will have clean drinking water??


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Is there a 'chemical' that can be flushed thru the system to eliminate the build up in the pipes?
> 
> If so, how long AFTER that chemical is pumped thru the system, that people will have clean drinking water??


The problem is that there was a buildup on the pipes that protected the city from lead. Flint River water removed that buildup, releasing lead into drinking water.

As ||Downhome|| indicated, they're currently treating the water system with a phosphate compound that they hope will cover lead in pipes with a protective bio-film. They don't know exactly how long it will take or how well it will work. Analyzing the water over time will tell them how well it's working.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Nevada said:


> The problem is that there was a buildup on the pipes that protected the city from lead. Flint River water removed that buildup, releasing lead into drinking water.
> 
> As ||Downhome|| indicated, they're currently treating the water system with a phosphate compound that they hope will cover lead in pipes with a protective bio-film. They don't know exactly how long it will take or how well it will work. Analyzing the water over time will tell them how well it's working.



Not to pick on you, It was indeed water from the river but it was the nature of the water that dissolved the protective coating.
Its on the Acidic side for a number of reasons.
My guess is the Plant material Decomposing.

I just hate the river to keep getting knocked, once upon a time it really was deserving.
I can't find the info online but I spoke years ago to a few guys involved in the Flint River Watershed. One a State Biologist.
They said that the River is one of the Cleanest in the State!

I wish people would say the New Water Source. 
Its tantamount to calling Michael Moore a Flint Native, which I heard the other night on the News.
He is not and has never been a Flint Native, He was Raised in Davison.

I will once again point out, the Water Plant is on the East Side of Flint,
this is the entry point that the river comes into the City.
All the Former Manufacturing that use to pollute the river is west of the Plant.

It was not treating the water properly that led to the Protective coating being destroyed.

Had they of properly Adjusted the PH, even with out the Phosphate added there should of never been Issue.

And Nevada its not a Biofilm, its a Mineral coating. There should not be any Biofilm in a municipal water system. That is what the Chlorine is for.

Its going to take some time,more so if people are not using it.

Think of it this way, they can only put in a certain percentage of phosphate.

So If the water is not flowing, then the Phosphate that is added once released from solution, is not replenished.
Of coarse if you opened the mains and just let it flow,much of it would never be released.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

||Downhome|| said:


> Not to pick on you, It was indeed water from the river but it was the nature of the water that dissolved the protective coating.
> Its on the Acidic side for a number of reasons.


I believe that the culprit was corrosive salts.



||Downhome|| said:


> And Nevada its not a Biofilm, its a Mineral coating. There should not be any Biofilm in a municipal water system.


Take it up with the utilities administrator.

_Flint Utilities Administrator Mike Glasgow says adding more phosphates to the water should help create a biofilm within the cityâs water pipes._ 
http://michiganradio.org/post/flint-fights-lead-drinking-water-adding-more-phosphates#stream/0


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Most of the homes built prior to 1950, have a lead pipe running from the city's shutoff valve, near the sidewalk, to the meter in the basement. This is on the homeowner's property and is the homeowner's responsibility. This set up is in nearly every city in Michigan, perhaps nearly every city in the country.

93% of the homes in Flint tested below the allowed amount of lead. If the workers at the water treatment had added phosphorous, the pipe's lead would have remained covered.

2,500 homes have the lead pipe. Digging it up, avoiding gas lines, phone lines, cable lines, shrubs, trees, etc, plus the required water testing follow up, is expected to cost $5,000. That is 125 million. This is generally seen as the homeowner's problem. The service line is the homeowner's responsibility. Most home owners effected cannot afford this solution, but expect more than a phosphorous coating, as was done previously.
Sort of hard to use State tax money to fix private property water lines, to rebuild Flint resident's confidence, while leaving hundreds of thousands of homeowners in other cities with the exact same lead service lines.

Folks that study lead toxicity, explain that children get exposed to lead from the paint dust created from opening and closing windows that have lead paint, most houses have a hundred pounds of lead on them in the form of paint.

Until recently, lead was measured in parts per million. 1 PPM was the smallest detectable amount. Now, we can measure parts per billion. So, 1000 PPB or less is the old threshold. But now we strive for the even lower, previously undetectable 100 PPB.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

haypoint said:


> 2,500 homes have the lead pipe. Digging it up, avoiding gas lines, phone lines, cable lines, shrubs, trees, etc, plus the required water testing follow up, is expected to cost $5,000. That is 125 million. This is generally seen as the homeowner's problem.


I've done it twice, but I didn't dig up the old line. Rented a trencher, then dug a new trench & rerouted the water in PVC pipe. But both times I've done it the previous pipe left behind was galvanized. They might want to take the lead out, but I don't know that an old lead pipe in the ground is a problem.

Doing the way I did doesn't seem like a $5,000 job.


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## kuriakos (Oct 7, 2005)

haypoint said:


> 2,500 homes have the lead pipe. Digging it up, avoiding gas lines, phone lines, cable lines, shrubs, trees, etc, plus the required water testing follow up, is expected to cost $5,000. That is 125 million.


$12.5 million


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

kuriakos said:


> $12.5 million


you got the math right. I was focused on the 125 million and missed a zero on the number of homes effected. It's 25,000 homes times $5000. So now we are back to 125 million. But for Flint it might as well be 125 trillion.


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## kuriakos (Oct 7, 2005)

I don't know much about all this and don't pretend to, but why do they want to replace all 25,000 lines if only 7% of those houses have high lead levels?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

kuriakos said:


> I don't know much about all this and don't pretend to, but why do they want to replace all 25,000 lines if only 7% of those houses have high lead levels?


The may need to dig and inspect all 25,000 because they don't know which are lead.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

kuriakos said:


> I don't know much about all this and don't pretend to, but why do they want to replace all 25,000 lines if only 7% of those houses have high lead levels?


Well like I have been harping... it was a problem in the making...

It needs to be Fixed.

It should of happened decades ago! 

I was in Flint today, taking care of some business.

Visited a friend. Actually several.

The water is causing skin issues.

From washing.

Pretty sure that is not lead or copper...


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## LonelyNorthwind (Mar 6, 2010)

I'm far away but have been following this daily. I am so disgusted that any citizens in this country don't have safe water and cannot imagine the worry you are all suffering. 

I have a question that's been bugging me since they started bringing in bottled water. Am I to understand they are providing households with hundreds of 16oz bottles of water? To drink, cook with, wash with? What the hey! In this polluted world there will soon be more plastic garbage in the ocean than fish. What are they planning to do with thousands more plastic bottles? Some bottling company is making a fortune off you guys.

Is there any reason they aren't providing holding tanks and bringing in trucks with clean water? If it doesn't rain enough here in the summer my rain water tank runs dry. It's only happened twice but I bring a clean trash container in the kitchen and keep it full with 5-gallon jugs from the spring (yeah, I'm so lucky!). In this emergency, seems they better do better than puny polluting plastic bottles.

Sun showers for camping would help a lot in this situation. They hold 2 gallons but I've never been able to use it all, they're amazingly sufficient. A gallon is plenty for a good shower and clean rinse. ps, you don't need sun, just fill with warm water :happy2:

I am so sorry you're going through this.


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## kuriakos (Oct 7, 2005)

Nevada said:


> The may need to dig and inspect all 25,000 because they don't know which are lead.


Can't they tell by looking at where those lines enter the basements? Or simply replace the lines to the houses with the high lead levels tested in the water, and leave the others alone. I don't see why my tax dollars should replace privately owned lead lines that haven't been damaged by the water fiasco. I also notice that the city wants money to replace their sewer lines too. Their sewer lines are not contributing to lead poisoning so that gives away the fact they're trying to capitalize on the relatively small amount of damage done by the state or whoever is responsible.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

kuriakos said:


> Can't they tell by looking at where those lines enter the basements? Or simply replace the lines to the houses with the high lead levels tested in the water, and leave the others alone. I don't see why my tax dollars should replace privately owned lead lines that haven't been damaged by the water fiasco. I also notice that the city wants money to replace their sewer lines too. Their sewer lines are not contributing to lead poisoning so that gives away the fact they're trying to capitalize on the relatively small amount of damage done by the state or whoever is responsible.


I suspect they're waiting to see how well the phosphate treatment works.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

LonelyNorthwind said:


> I'm far away but have been following this daily. I am so disgusted that any citizens in this country don't have safe water and cannot imagine the worry you are all suffering.
> 
> I have a question that's been bugging me since they started bringing in bottled water. Am I to understand they are providing households with hundreds of 16oz bottles of water? To drink, cook with, wash with? What the hey! In this polluted world there will soon be more plastic garbage in the ocean than fish. What are they planning to do with thousands more plastic bottles? Some bottling company is making a fortune off you guys.
> 
> ...


 

Most, 97%, of the Flint water tests negative for lead or in the safe range. No amount of lead is good for you. But the low amounts of lead are safe to bathe, shower, wash clothes, etc. About the only time you'd need bottled water is for children's drinking water. Also, tens of thousands of water filters have been passed out, free, to those in need. So, in most cases, everyone can safely drink the water.

The spotlight shines brightly on the few places with elevated lead levels. But children are at a far greater risk from the lead paint inside and outside their homes.

There are recycling efforts picking up the empty plastic water bottles.

This "crisis" comes at a perfect time for bottled water companies. Normally, sales of bottled water is slower in mid-winter. Should be a great time to own a bottled water company. 

Most older cities have the same lead pipes that Flint has. Some cities have taxed their citizens and upgraded the water infrastructure. Flint hasn't.

Just like Katarina, lots of poor people in need of help from outsiders and a bunch of people piling on to get some free money. While letting the phosphorous recoat the pipes will solve the problem, the Mayor is calling for 1.5 Billion and total replacement of Flint's water system. Plus life long health care for everyone that drank the water, lead exposure or not. lead exposure from the water or not. Because a White Republican Gov. poisoned a Black Democrat community.

Some Flint children have been tested and have elevated lead levels. But children in numerous Michigan cities have been found to have elevated lead levels. I'm sorry for them. I'm over 60. I grew up around lead. It was in all the gasoline and vehicle exhaust, all the house paint, paint on all my toys, walls, floors and ceilings. At that time, tests could only show parts per million. Now, tests can show parts per billion, a thousand times lower. No one suffered. But people are getting minute levels of lead and are claiming all sorts of problems.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

kuriakos said:


> Can't they tell by looking at where those lines enter the basements? Or simply replace the lines to the houses with the high lead levels tested in the water, and leave the others alone. I don't see why my tax dollars should replace privately owned lead lines that haven't been damaged by the water fiasco. I also notice that the city wants money to replace their sewer lines too. Their sewer lines are not contributing to lead poisoning so that gives away the fact they're trying to capitalize on the relatively small amount of damage done by the state or whoever is responsible.


They discussed this on the radio last week. In your basement, between the wall and the meter is the inlet pipe. Scrape it. If copper, it'll look like a penny. If gray, put a magnet on it. If attracted to magnet, galvanized iron pipe. If not, lead.

The consistent application of phosphorous will fix the problem.
But replacement of the entire water system will get the city 1.5 Billion in free money, while ruining the white Republican Gov.


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## kuriakos (Oct 7, 2005)

That's what I thought. There's certainly no reason to go digging up pipes to determine whether they're lead when all you have to do is check where it comes into the house. And we don't need to replace even those pipes that are lead if they're not leaching into the water.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Flint Water &#8220;Crisis&#8221;. While Gov Snyder tries to get State support for an 800 Million dollar infrastructure improvement for Flint, the Mayor has filed a lawsuit against the State for &#8220;damages&#8221;. Let me explain how I feel about this in a story. 
My neighbor&#8217;s roof was leaking. The condition of his house reflects on the value of my house. I offered to co-sign on a construction loan. Neighbor said his brother-in-law could do the work and it would cost $5000. I don&#8217;t know his brother-in-law, but there were no other contractors that could do it until next spring. We got the loan to re-roof the house and the work progressed. I had the building inspector over there every week, making sure it was done correctly. This Spring, the roof of his garage collapsed, smashing my neighbor&#8217;s car. The loan was just to re-roof the house. He says I should have had the Inspector check the garage roof. Seeing how things turned out, I wish I had, too.
I feel bad that I didn&#8217;t think to check the condition of the garage roof. The neighbor blames me, says I refused to allot enough money to do both the house and garage, causing damage to his car. I don&#8217;t think the topic came up, but I can&#8217;t prove that. I feel bad, knowing that he didn&#8217;t have insurance and cannot afford such a loss. Being a good neighbor, plus being concerned that the garage will add blight to my neighborhood, I offer to hold a few fund raisers to get his car fixed and garage roof repaired. I set up an account at Lowes, but my neighbor expects me to turn over the cash so he can buy the shingles and materials. I've seen how he spends money, so I decline. The fund raiser isn&#8217;t going well, because other neighbors wonder why we buy him a garage roof, when they must buy their own. But I got myself involved with the roofing and I don&#8217;t want an angry neighbor.
While I&#8217;m serving spaghetti at the VFW fund raiser to repair the neighbor&#8217;s garage and car, the Sherriff shows up with a subpoena. Because I was a co-signer on the $5000 home improvement loan, my neighbor is suing me for $20,000. He said the whole thing was my idea. I was shocked. I called him up and he told me that he&#8217;s just making future plans if my fund raiser doesn&#8217;t pan out.
After all I&#8217;ve done for him, he treats me this way? I have a notion to cancel all the fund raisers, let him fail in court and have nothing. Yet I&#8217;m torn to be the good neighbor, no matter how ungrateful he is.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

Story has no basis in reality. State screwed up, big time. Couldn't afford the chemicals needed by state choice and we are 10 times the cost of said chemicals already. More cost to come.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

haypoint said:


> I wouldn't bother getting into a discussion about a local problem on a national forum, but since Clinton, Sanders and Obama have mentioned it, I felt I should help shed some light on this mostly political issue.
> 
> A few years ago, after elected city officials ran several cities into insolvency, State law requires the Gov. to appoint an emergency manager to try to save the cities. By no coincidence, these failing cities have long histories of Democrat rule and an unelected Emergency Manager, appointed by a White Republican, was hated.
> 
> ...


Trust you to always tackle the side of government, government officials, or whatever toxic chemical needs backing.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> Trust you to always tackle the side of government, government officials, or whatever toxic chemical needs backing.


Naw, just willing to call something BS if it is BS.
Flint was failing, despite numerous bail-outs by the rest of the State. Throwing money at corrupt free spending city officials wasnât working. State laws allows the appointment of an Emergency Financial Manager to oversee the cityâs spending.
Other managers were able to locate waste, help negotiate union contracts and set plans for getting out of debt. But everyone knew that you canât make a silk purse out of a sowâs ear.
The Mayor and City Council still ran the city, but the Manager watched the spending and his OK was required on any big ticket purchases. The Mayor and City Council, faced with the highest water bills in the nation, voted to switch to the KWA that is under construction. Struggling Detroit was about to lose their biggest customer. Rather than work out a compromise with Flint, they responded with a sort of, â Well if you arenât going to buy our water in two years, when the KWA is complete, weâll not renew our contract in one year.â Flint would be out of water for a year. The Mayor and City Council discussed options. They have their own Water Treatment Facility. They discussed this with the Manager. They ordered a study to see now much it would cost to cut off Detroit water and hook up Flint River. They discussed what it would take to make Flint River safe to drink. Flintâs water treatment experts said they could do it, but river chemistry changes more rapidly than Lake Huron, so theyâd need to test more often. The Engineering Firm gave a price of (I think) $550,000 to switch the water. The Manager had to give his OK to spend the money. He approved the Mayor and City Councilâs request.
After the switch was made, Detroit offered a better deal to switch back and buy water without a contract. That seemed financially risky. Flint declined Detroitâs offer. Besides, the switchover money had already been spent.
There were a couple problems with the water. Started out fine, MDEQ and EPA tested it and it was fine. Then, from a test, it was discovered to have e coli. So they adjusted the chlorine and it was fine. General Motors didnât like the water because the extra chlorine made their engine parts oxidize more. Then there was too much chlorine, so it was adjusted down. Regularly, MDEQ and EPA tested the water leaving the Flint Water Treatment Plant. Other than those two moments, the water was fine.
Elevated lead levels were discovered in a few children. Using unconventional water sampling methods, a University water expert from North Carolina, obtained several high lead levels. Since that time, 93% of Flint households were proven to have safe water. This is about the national average. With 93% of homes having safe water, it is safe to assume that all 5,000 of Flint children under 5 years of age were not exposed to lead in the water. 
After the problem of exposed lead in homes and in the homeownerâs service lines, Water Treatment experts say that prosperous should have been added to keep the lead pipes coated. Flintâs Water Treatment Scientists didnât warn the cityâs civil engineer. No one told the Mayor or City Council to add a coating to the water. No one informed the Emergency Financial Manager that lead would leach out of the homeownerâs plumbing without phosphorous. No one told the State Gov. Snyder.
Michigan Department of Environmental Quality (MDEQ) mostly makes wetland determinations and some major sewer recommendations. It is a small department. Over the past decade, they were criticized for wielding too much power/control. Small and weak seems to match the voterâs wishes.
Federal Environmental Protection Agency focuses on environmental issues, not municipal water treatment facilities. Following the wishes of voters, EPA has been brought under control by massive budget cuts. That is how government works.
Looking back, Detroit could have been nicer to Flint and avoided this. But I think it unreasonable to expect that the Stateâs Gov. would stop into the Flint Water Treatment Facility and exclaim, â Hey, I think you need to turn up the phosphorous so the coating in the lead pipes doesnât leach into 7% of the homes in Flint.â I think it is unreasonable to suspect that the Emergency Financial Manager felt/thought/said, âI want Flint to save money on water, even if it puts the citizens at risk for lead.â
After the fact, we clearly see the problem. Gov. Snyder wants to get it fixed. The taxpayers of Michigan have paid the water bills for the citizens of Flint. The taxpayers of Michigan and hundreds of donors have provided Flint with water filters, testing services and bottled water. Gov. Snyder wants the taxpayers of Michigan to pay $800,000,000. to Flint to upgrade the homeownerâs lead service lines. (while other communities fund their own water line upgrades)
The Flint Mayorâs response to that is to hire a team of lawyers to sue Snyder and the Emergency Manager for damages. 
We can see the chain of events and how it played out. Too bad we canât see where Flint would be without the Stateâs help.
This is hard for me. Iâm no fan of Snyder. I could use another reason to dislike him. But Iâm a bigger fan of the truth.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

http://bipartisanreport.com/2016/04...ederal-rico-lawsuit-for-flint-water-disaster/



> The water crisis in Flint, Michigan has already cost thousands of residents sleepless nights, endless visits to doctors as they see about their poisoned children, and proven yet again that too often in this country people cannot trust their elected representatives to do what is in the public interest.





> Now, it will cost Michigan Governor Rick Snyder one massive headache atop the one he has already inflicted on himself and his state. Snyder, it was announced today, is now the subject of a federal racketeering (RICO) lawsuit filed by hundreds of Flint residents.
> 
> The lawsuit alleges that the state of Michigan ran Flint&#8217;s day-to-day operations through an emergency manager, who then attempted to partially balance the city&#8217;s budget through a what he felt was a wise cost-cutting measure: Switching Flint&#8217;s water source from Lake Huron, which had been the source of water in the city for more than 50 years, to a local, heavily polluted river.
> 
> ...


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Naw, just willing to call something BS if it is BS.
> [
> The Mayor and City Council still ran the city, but the Manager watched the spending and his OK was required on any big ticket purchases. The Mayor and City Council, faced with the highest water bills in the nation, voted to switch to the KWA that is under construction. Struggling Detroit was about to lose their biggest customer. Rather than work out a compromise with Flint, they responded with a sort of, â Well if you arenât going to buy our water in two years, when the KWA is complete, weâll not renew our contract in one year.â Flint would be out of water for a year. The Mayor and City Council discussed options. They have their own Water Treatment Facility. They discussed this with the Manager. They ordered a study to see now much it would cost to cut off Detroit water and hook up Flint River. They discussed what it would take to make Flint River safe to drink. Flintâs water treatment experts said they could do it, but river chemistry changes more rapidly than Lake Huron, so theyâd need to test more often. The Engineering Firm gave a price of (I think) $550,000 to switch the water. The Manager had to give his OK to spend the money. He approved the Mayor and City Councilâs request.[
> After the problem of exposed lead in homes and in the homeownerâs service lines, Water Treatment experts say that prosperous should have been added to keep the lead pipes coated. Flintâs Water Treatment Scientists didnât warn the cityâs civil engineer. No one told the Mayor or City Council to add a coating to the water. No one informed the Emergency Financial Manager that lead would leach out of the homeownerâs plumbing without phosphorous. No one told the State Gov. Snyder.
> ]





Thanks for a key pice of information that I didn't have. The fact that they hired a consulting firm to study what it takes does show reasonable diligence. 
Apparently they hired a unqualified for firm though.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

"The water crisis in Flint, Michigan has already cost thousands of residents sleepless nights, endless visits to doctors as they see about their poisoned children, and proven yet again that too often in this country people cannot trust their elected representatives to do what is in the public interest. "

What that lawsuit claims isn't the truth, it is just what the team of personal injury lawyers want a judge to believe so they can fleece the State and earn their 30%.
With bankruptcy, the Cops and Firefighters, everyone could lose their retirements they earned. Services would be shut off, people that bought Municipal Bonds to fund their future could be left penniless. Recently, Detroit, with a Gov. appointed Emergency Manager, avoided bankruptcy and while deep cuts were made, everyone kept their job and the retirees still get a pension. Detroit is doing quite well, considering.
The Flint and City Council were in charge of the day to day operations, while the Emergency Manager oversaw their spending and held veto power over big ticket purchases. No single person oversees the day to day operation of a large city. Google flow chart.
Flint river hasn't been a polluted river for many decades. The river water was made safe to drink. The Mayor and City Council voted to switch to an incomplete KWA, when it was completed in two years. Detroit Water told Flint that their contract would expire in 12 months. Flint City Council met to figure out a water source for the city. Flint doesn't have access to Lake Huron water. They chose the only option they had. The
EM ordered a cost to switch study. The City Council sought to spend $500,000 to switch to Flint River. Gov. Snyder's appointed Emergency Financial Manager approved the Flint City Council's request. This whole thing hangs on him approving their request makes the Gov. liable for rebuilding Flints water system and lifelong health care for everyone.

Public trust was shaken. Those that want to make political hay, have whipped this up. Sleepless nights. 6 homes out of a hundred had elevated lead levels. People afraid to wash clothes or bathe in it, when lead doesn't enter your body through skin, especially at the minute levels it is at the worst case. Testing has been offered and completed, most are at normal levels. In an old town like Flint, you'd expect higher lead levels due to the exposure to lead paint in most homes. High blood levels, if you find any, could be from all sorts of sources, including water. This quoted paragraph tells of the fear of the unknown that is the trouble. But the hate for a white guy Republican prevents any desire to believe the scope of the lead is small and the vast majority of Flint residents were not impacted at all. Many want to be a victim. There's money in it.


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## Breezy833 (Jun 17, 2013)

Hate for a white guy? Darnell Early was black, we hated him too.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Breezy833 said:


> Hate for a white guy? Darnell Early was black, we hated him too.


Early was appointed by a White Guy. That's enough. If that chafes you, insert Republican instead. 

93% of the homes have always had safe water. The water bill is the cost of water and sewer. Yet, Flint water users feel they shouldn't pay the past two years worth of water bills.

If 7% of the people that bought gasoline from a gas station that I go to, does the gas station owe me (and everyone else) a refund for two years of gasoline, plus 100,000 mile warranty?


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

The only people that make out in a class action are the Lawyers.

Let me help out those that keep saying the rivers polluted with a visual aid.

The original source of pollution is the are marked in Blue. 
The Plant and flow of the River in Red.

If you look up river from the plant you will see it is a extensive county park.
People Swim,Fish and enjoy water activity's all summer long. 
That is not something you do in a polluted river.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

The concern has never been about the condition of the water going into the Water Treatment Plant from the Flint River. Just the normal stuff that water treatment experts deal with every day. 
The concern has never been about the condition of the water coming out of the Flint Water Treatment Plant. It did have a lower ph and a small amount of chlorine, as do many public water systems.

It did not have an added chemical used to coat the insides of plumbing. The chemical additive would have been very cheap but the system to add it to the water would have cost many millions. I don't know why, just listening to the experts.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

No your wrong. 

The Second it was announced that the City was Switching to the River it caused a uproar.

The River has a reputation that it no longer Deserves.

For Instance from post 265,

"Switching Flint&#8217;s water source from Lake Huron, which had been the source of water in the city for more than 50 years, *to a local, heavily polluted river*."

The visual Aid is for those who are not from the area to debunk that.

As you posted earlier the River has not been polluted for Decades.

Even if it was, the pollution would be down Stream from the Plant.

All I see in most accounts is speculation. 

The States is not responsible for the snafu.

There are many people culpable in it though including the Residents.

The Flint City government has been dysfunctional for a very long time.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

this may interest some of you,
Not Necessarily water related but goes a long way to show that perhaps the water was not the issue.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdhhs/CLPPP_2013_Data_Report_502175_7.pdf


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I guess I wasn't clear in my post about the Flint River not being the problem. You pointed out the Water Treatment Plant is up river from Industry. I wanted to reinforce what you said about it not being polluted by stating that Flint's Water Troubles isn't and hasn't been the Flint River.
It is a lie that this was caused by switching from Detroit Water (Detroit ended their contract with Flint) to the Flint River. 

I reviewed the documents from the State web site you provided. I think it clearly shows that children ingest lead all over the state. Most cases are where there are the most people. Seems reasonable. Over all, lead levels in children are dropping everywhere.
We'll never know if some of those children in Flint with elevated lead levels got it from the water or from the more common sources of environmental lead.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Here seems to be the crux of the issue and where the blame should lay...

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2016/04/charges_filed_in_flint_water_c.html


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

||Downhome|| said:


> Here seems to be the crux of the issue and where the blame should lay...
> 
> http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2016/04/charges_filed_in_flint_water_c.html


I agree. But the game plan for Flint is to shame a few hundred million more from the taxpayers and send the Gov to prison. They won't be satisfied until that happens. It has never been about fixing the water. If it were that's what the Mayor would focus on.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

I knew all along it was Busch's fault. http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/04/21/flin-a21.html


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## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

mmoetc said:


> I knew all along it was Busch's fault. http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/04/21/flin-a21.html


 You actually read that site?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> I knew all along it was Busch's fault. http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/04/21/flin-a21.html





flewism said:


> You actually read that site?


Stephen Busch, not George Bush.

_Two officials with the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality (MDEQ) are named in the indictment. *Stephen Busch, who was a district supervisor* in the MDEQ Office of Drinking Water and Municipal Assistance, and Michael Prysby, a former MDEQ district engineer._
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/04/21/flin-a21.html


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

flewism said:


> You actually read that site?


Only to make sure it named those indicted. You people need to lighten up a bit.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

mmoetc said:


> Only to make sure it named those indicted. You people need to lighten up a bit.


Even going to that website indicates you're not an American, though. Or something like that.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol that's about the most Unpatriotic thing I've ever heard. 
I can't even think of a politician who said anything as anti freedom as that.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

I think there was some subtle sarcasm there that might not have come through. At least I hope so. I can assure all of you that I am American. Ive got court documentation to prove it.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

mmoetc said:


> I think there was some subtle sarcasm there that might not have come through. At least I hope so. I can assure all of you that I am American. Ive got court documentation to prove it.


I need to work on the subtle humor thing. I meant people think socialists are host anti-American values.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

I don't know if any of you outside the area have heard,a WP Foreman was found dead at his home.

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2016/04/treatment_plant_foreman_dies_a.html

A Flint woman that was at the center of Lawsuit was also found dead.

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2016/04/woman_in_bellwether_flint_wate.html


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

http://www.wsj.com/articles/three-o...al-charges-over-flint-water-crisis-1461166410



> Two Michigan environmental regulators and a Flint water-plant supervisor were charged Wednesday in the first criminal case stemming from federal and state probes into lead contamination of the city&#8217;s drinking water.
> 
> Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette announced charges against Stephen Busch, who was a district supervisor in the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality&#8217;s Office of Drinking Water and Municipal Assistance during the water crisis; Michael Prysby, a former district engineer with the DEQ; and Michael Glasgow, a supervisor at Flint&#8217;s water-treatment plant.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Heritagefarm said:


> http://www.wsj.com/articles/three-o...al-charges-over-flint-water-crisis-1461166410



see post 275...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Flint water has always and still is safe to use in your toilet.
Flint water has always and still is safe to use in your washer.
Flint water has always and still is safe to use in your bath.
Flint water has always and still is safe to use in your dishwasher.
Flint water has always and still is safe to use to water your lawn.
Flint water has always and still is safe to drink in 92% of all homes.
Flint water is safe to drink with the thousands of free water filters supplied by the State and charity.
1800 other communities have been identified with lead levels exceeding Flint's numbers.
The State has given Flint hundreds of millions for water upgrades that normally are the home owner's responsibility. The lead pipes are not part of Flint's water system, the lead pipes are the service lines mostly under the home owner's front yard.

Flint's Mayor Weaver demands more money and more control of that money.


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## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

And none of that matters, public opinion is that the "STATE" "POISONED" 10's of thousands of Flint's poor residents. I'm so sick of Mayor Weaver and Colman Young JR. all ways on local TV talk shows talking about the plight of Flint and blaming everybody but the local city government who in their eyes is faultless. It is a never ending story line of suffering, despair, and who's to blame and of each show is a demand to give us more money, you owe us.

Bottom line Flint will end up with a brand new water system complete with plenty of social programs for area improvement and the place will still be destitute 5-10 years from now. There is now billboards all over suburban Detroit soliciting money to donate to Flint from the public. The city has quite a media campaign now going in metro Detroit.


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## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

*



Fired Flint official files whistle-blower lawsuit against Weaver, city

"The Flint water crisis has triggered yet another lawsuit, this one filed by the city's former administrator, who claims she was wrongfully fired for blowing the whistle on the mayor of Flint for allegedly trying to steer money from a charity for local families into a campaign fund."

Click to expand...

 *
Was talked about all morning on the news radio.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/201...fficial-files-whistleblower-lawsuit/84145594/


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

Did Karen Weaver (present mayor of Flint) divert funds from the 'crisis' to her own political action comittee?

http://www.progressivestoday.com/la...verted-funds-water-crisis-pac-video/?mtcid=cf

Suppose this is one the emergency manager, too.........:goodjob:


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

And this from the previous mayor of Flint

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2016/02/10/3747686/flint-dayne-walling/


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Riverdale said:


> Did Karen Weaver (present mayor of Flint) divert funds from the 'crisis' to her own political action comittee?
> 
> http://www.progressivestoday.com/la...verted-funds-water-crisis-pac-video/?mtcid=cf
> 
> Suppose this is one the emergency manager, too.........:goodjob:


The day after Gov. Snyder pulled back the authority of the Emergency Manager and allowed Weaver to run things, she fired the city manager. I think this city manager was appointed by the Emergency Manager. Mayor Weaver also fired the Police Chief and the Fire Chief, too. Clean sweep of anyone not meeting her three requirements, Black, Democrat, willing to kiss her behind.
Mayor Weaver broke the City Manager's contract by firing her and then expects the state taxpayers to pay for the violation of the contract.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

haypoint said:


> Flint water has always and still is safe to use in your toilet.
> Flint water has always and still is safe to drink in 92% of all homes.


 Thats reassuring... Maybe the Flint Chamber of Commerce can put that in the brochures... "Water safe enough to use in your toilet".


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

greg273 said:


> Thats reassuring... Maybe the Flint Chamber of Commerce can put that in the brochures... "Water safe enough to use in your toilet".


What if the dog drinks that water?

"Flint dogs dying of lead poisoning from toilet water - state calls for emergency funds to hospitalize 'lead water dogs.'"


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Heritagefarm said:


> What if the dog drinks that water?
> 
> "Flint dogs dying of lead poisoning from toilet water - state calls for emergency funds to hospitalize 'lead water dogs.'"


 Not to worry, according to Haypoint, its 'only' 8% of the households that have poisonous tap water. No big deal, right?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Oh, Flint's got the pets covered. Michigan State Univ. has held numerous "Test your Pet" events. No surprises. Just like you'd find in any aging urban community, most tested lead free or below levels of concern and a couple had elevated levels. Poor dogs, lowered their IQ by 5 points......
No dogs have died from minute amounts of lead from the water.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

greg273 said:


> Not to worry, according to Haypoint, its 'only' 8% of the households that have poisonous tap water. No big deal, right?


No amount of lead in the water is good for you. The real point is what amount is going to hurt you?

Have 100,000 peoples been poisoned by lead in the Flint water? 

I think we need to break it down and then separate fantasy. If 92% of the households have always had good, lead free water, 92% of the 100,000 residents have not been effected and didn't really need your donated bottled water. At most, 8,000 people may have been exposed to lead in the water. By now, many have been tested. Very few showed elevated lead levels. Still no way to know the source of lead. In most older urban communities, people are exposed to lead from various sources. 

25 years ago, any amount of lead below 1 part per million was safe, because that was as close as we could test. Now, with modern testing equipment, we can test a thousand times smaller amounts. Just because we can detect it, doesn't make it more life threatening.

King Cobras and Rocky Mountain Rattle Snakes are poisonous. I hate to equate snake venom to elevated lead levels in water. Every one of us, over 50, were subjected to far greater lead exposure from motor fuels. We've had greater exposure to asbestos in our lives, from vehicle clutches and brakes. 

If I felt that any detectable level of lead in a water system was cause for alarm, I could focus the media on any out of hundreds of other communities with lead levels comparable to Flint.
If I felt any detectable level of lead in children was a reason to panic, I could cause alarm in any community in the nation.

But Flint was ripe for someone to blame for the troubles within their own community at a level not seen since the "Hep me" bunch following Katrina.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Oh, Flint's got the pets covered. Michigan State Univ. has held numerous "Test your Pet" events. No surprises. Just like you'd find in any aging urban community, most tested lead free or below levels of concern and a couple had elevated levels. Poor dogs, lowered their IQ by 5 points......
> No dogs have died from minute amounts of lead from the water.


dDid they (the dogs) have any IQ points left? Sorry, couln't resist that. Many dogs are actually pretty dumb, but get treated like people who misguided people. Maybe we've all seen too many Disney movies? _Bambi_ is bound to make a vegetarian of just about anyone.


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