# Price to build a stick frame home?



## thestartupman

What is the cheapest that someone could build a small stick frame home? I would do nearly all the work, and have experience in doing most of the work. Does anyone know of a good way of estimating the cost, without buying plans ahead of time?


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## MushCreek

The only way to accurately figure the cost is to make a list and add everything up- not very practical, I realize. The shell of the house is only a fraction of the total cost, and there are so many variables along the way. Just site work alone can cost tens of thousands- or nearly nothing, depending upon location, knowledge, and equipment. I read recently of someone building a cabin in Truckee CA, and the various permits and fees came to $58,000!

Where we're building in SC, permits will probably total under $1000. Site work is going to run about $15,000, and septic system another $6000. That's without building anything.

Assuming you have land that is nearly ready to build on, and you aren't suffering under some governmental dictatorship, I would guess you could get a place somewhat livable for $15,000 or so. If there's no building department, and you're a good scrounger, you could do it for a lot less. Most places won't allow used building materials, at least not structural. Even windows have to have the specification stickers on them to pass inspection.

I recommend you ask this question over in the forum at countryplans.com. Great bunch of folks over there, many of whom have done, or are doing, just what you speak of. They have very reasonable small home plans, too.


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## crunchy_mama

We made a set of base plans and then were able to take it to the lumber store(local not big box) and get a materials estimate which gave us a rough start.


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## tiogacounty

crunchy_mama said:


> We made a set of base plans and then were able to take it to the lumber store(local not big box) and get a materials estimate which gave us a rough start.


 Not a bad first step. however...... You need to be vary careful if you then go ahead and order from their list. lumber salesmen are famous for doing a lot of guessing, and typically to the high side. I always do my own take-offs from a print, and then cross check it with the framer's list. If you use a list provided by a supplier, be sure that you have shopped the list around and that the low bidder is in agreement that they will pick up all extra material and credit you in full. No pick-up charge, no handling fees, no "store credit" for the returns.


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## crunchy_mama

Dh's father has been very good friends w/ the owner of the lumber yard we use, has been for decades and actually we usually get discounts. We did price around as well and pretty much everything the local lumber yard beats the big box store hands down, it is the place all the contractors use, my brother builds houses for a living as well so he has a keen eye for prices. We were very involved w/ the building and prices of most everything though and didn't just take anyone's word for anything from the biggest to the smallest things. We have built 2 houses now so have some experience. Doing a lot of the work ourselves, so we know what is needed and what is not and found the list to be pretty accurate. Some things we upgraded and some downgraded, it wasn't any big deal.s

I think it is a good idea to be aware of these things though and those estimates can at least give you a jumping point.


We never had any issue with returns either, it is just a matter of business. I guess that is why he has such great business, good places don't try to rip you off.


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## thestartupman

If a person was to go to one of the big box stores with a build list, and take the time to price things out, how much more of a savings do you think you might get when ordering the hole package from them, or a local lumber yard? 10%, 20%, 25%????


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## tiogacounty

thestartupman said:


> If a person was to go to one of the big box stores with a build list, and take the time to price things out, how much more of a savings do you think you might get when ordering the hole package from them, or a local lumber yard? 10%, 20%, 25%????


 As a builder, I can't really deal with a big box store for any serious project. That little lumber "isle" you see in the store? Well, a typical serious yard carries at least ten times as much product in inventory. You see a stack of dirt cheap 2x4s with the top fifty or so being picked through, twisted scrap? Who do you think gets them when you need 220 of them delivered? If you have the money to buy a significant amount of material at once, get a list together and get prices from a few yards. Now is the time, the whole industry is starving and there are a lot of people who will try to earn your business. Good luck.


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## crunchy_mama

That is the same problem dh has, the stuff from the HD is crap and certainly not good for any serious building. There is a reason why the contractors do not use them, they are out to make a profit and shopping there doesn't do it.


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## Qhorseman

I use my local yard, they are comparable to HD and Lowes, where they beat the box stores is in delivery. HD and Lowes charge me to deliver, $75 for the last load, local charges nothing. There is something nice about calling the yard and asking to deliver a load of lumber and tell them I will be into town in a few days to write them a check and they say "ok"


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## texican

Almost finished with a 12x20 'kennel' house. Standard wood frame building, insulated, with drywall and waterproof 'bathroom wall' board on one end. Up to code, with electricity, water, and gas. Still need to put paint on the walls, and linoleum on the floor... will work out less than $10/foot.

If I were building a 'house' to live in, on the cheap, it'd have two stories, cutting out a lot of extra costs, lowering the final square foot cost.

In my new home (for us humans) I'm looking at less than $20/sq foot. 

Of course, I have a sawmill to make my own dimensional and beam lumber.


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## thestartupman

Texican, do you have to have your home inspected as it is being built?


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## davel745

for a rough idea

http://www.building-cost.net/

Dave


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## ErinP

thestartupman said:


> If a person was to go to one of the big box stores with a build list, and take the time to price things out, how much more of a savings do you think you might get when ordering the hole package from them, or a local lumber yard? 10%, 20%, 25%????


I don't know about the "hole" package, but I do know that almost anything I want I can get at Menards for about 30-50% less than the local yard.  Which really bums me, because I'd really like to use my local yard more often. 
However, I will agree with whomever pointed out that there's a lot of crap in the pile. I would NEVER let them just bring me a load of lumber. 
I pick. 

There was an afternoon I was in the board shed for nearly 2 hours, loading out a large lumber order because I hand picked everything that went in my trailer. I must have tipped the yard guy enough for putting up with me, because he's shown up since then to help me load, too.


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## tiogacounty

davel745 said:


> for a rough idea
> 
> http://www.building-cost.net/
> 
> Dave


 Usually I find these calculators to be wildly inaccurate. 
In this case, I compared their numbers to my current costs as a home builder. They are within 5% of my real world #. I can see how this could be real helpful, especially since it delineates things like builder profit. I would caution to not place a lot of weight in the individual line items. In my case, things like excavating costs were extremely light.


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## davel745

I too found the calculator to be close but individual costs are so variable that I use it only for a rough estimate.

Dave


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## texican

thestartupman said:


> Texican, do you have to have your home inspected as it is being built?


With no mortgage, there are no inspections... We have no code laws here. However, if you get a mortgage, the bank will require code inspections, basically to cover their investment.


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## Julieanne

We are thinking of building one of these:http://www.firstdaycottage.com/
We have a friend who's a contractor & said we probably wouldn't be able to build any cheaper than this.


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## tiogacounty

Julieanne said:


> We are thinking of building one of these:http://www.firstdaycottage.com/
> We have a friend who's a contractor & said we probably wouldn't be able to build any cheaper than this.


As a builder with a few decades of experience, I have had some heated debates about this product, here on the forum. IMHO, it is a lightly built, lightly insulated home with a lot of issues. Others may disagree, but I think that a Stick built home is far superior in many ways, and that a SIPS panel structure would simply crush a "First day" product in any comparison. From the info. and pictures on their website, I cannot imagine how they can meet current requirements for deflection, snow loading, braced wall lines, insulation levels or fire blocking. Remember however, that in some cases where things look awfully lightly done, a company can get the approval of a licensed engineer or architect to basically over-ride a lot of current code requirements.

In my area, If I wanted to build a very light duty post and beam structure and wrap it with horizontal boards and a few inches of foam, it simply would never get past the plan review stages. Minimum code requirements are just that, the least you can do to provide a modestly energy efficient structure with a reasonable level of durability and fire resistance. In this case, I can't see it meeting those minimum requirements.
YMMV, but I certainly wouldn't bother with this company.

BTW, your buddy is wrong about costs. By designing a very simple stick built structure, shopping locally and aggressively for material, and doing all the work yourself, you end up with the lowest cost for a new home. Once you buy a kit product from a company, you introduce their overhead, labor, advertising, consulting, engineering, transportation costs and profit into the deal. Therefore, 99% of the time, it will cost more in the end.


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## wvstuck

Rough Idea on framing. I just built a 20x24' out building with one dividing wall inside. The floors were framed with 2x12's and covered with t&g osb sturdi-floor. The walls are 2x4 precuts covered with 1/2" osb. I made the trusses for the roof myself with 2x6's and covered that with corrugated tin. Now keep in mind this is an outbuilding and there is no "foundation" it is simply sitting on piers. The total material cost delivered to the site was $3250.00 this is for the rough framing, no insulation, no wiring, no plumbing, no drywall, no kitchen cabinets or appilances and no bathroom or floor coverings. I got a really good discount on the materials because I have built several houses using the smae local yard (best price around)

I hope this helps you in some way.


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## BonnieDale Farm

Just a quick idea,...it saved us a ton of money buying from a local sawmill. Not a lumberyard,..but a one man operated sawmill in his backyard type deal. Just be careful and deal with a well known person with a good reputation.


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## MushCreek

Bear in mind that code requires graded, stamped lumber for structural applications in many locations. I looked into using my own timber to build with, but the cost of having it graded and stamped negated any savings. Now, you and I know that a clear, straight piece of oak is far stronger than the the twisty, knotty junk that passes for lumber these days, but 'tain't code'.


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## ErinP

Julieanne said:


> We are thinking of building one of these:http://www.firstdaycottage.com/
> We have a friend who's a contractor & said we probably wouldn't be able to build any cheaper than this.


Actually if you source your materials locally, you probably CAN build it cheaper. We're doing exactly that. 
Unless you need to pass inspections, in which case, it'd probably be easier to go with the "kit" because that's part of what they do; help you through codes, permitting, inspections, etc. 

So far as the design flaws tioga mentioned, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Though I would go with the "Canada" design and do the thicker insulation. 
But the designer has been in business for about 40 years and has a _lot_ of people who've built this particular style of house. Most of whom have been quite happy with their final results. 
Owners will tell you they're both energy efficient as well as stout. (For a post and beam house, they're actually OVERbuilt when you consider the spans between the bents.)

Myself, I have no desire whatsoever for "simple, stick built." 
It's the least energy-efficient method out there. It uses a LOT of materials that off-gas (drywall, fiberglass insulation, OSB/ply, etc.) making it extremely unhealthy and that's even before you get into aesthetic preferences... :shrug:


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## City Bound

This a little side note to this conversation:

MAn, it is expensive just to get some shelter.


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## Freeholder

Expensive if you have to meet codes and can't build with materials from your own site. If you live where there are no codes and have plenty of materials on your own site, then the expense can be primarily your own labor, if you are up to doing it that way.

Kathleen


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## City Bound

Blue, you are right. One thing that boggles my mind is why in some places building permits cost so much. Arent these offices and jobs paid for by public taxes, and if so how come the permits are not free? For the public to pay for the existence or a beaurocracy and then to be mistreated by these agencies is pretty unamerican.


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## MushCreek

High permits tell me that they do not want you to build unless you have a lot of money. I read on another forum about a guy who spent $58,000 for various fees and permits to build a cabin in CA. Not a mansion- a CABIN! Here in FL, it costs thousands to get a permit for a house. In SC, where our property is, it costs hundreds.


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## City Bound

Mush, what do they want the money for, they are not doing anything? It is like paying the government to do nothing except give you permission to build on your own property. Sounds like an abuse of power.

I guess you are right, they just dont want people with out money building anything.


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## tiogacounty

ErinP said:


> Actually if you source your materials locally, you probably CAN build it cheaper. We're doing exactly that.
> Unless you need to pass inspections, in which case, it'd probably be easier to go with the "kit" because that's part of what they do; help you through codes, permitting, inspections, etc.
> 
> So far as the design flaws tioga mentioned, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Though I would go with the "Canada" design and do the thicker insulation.
> But the designer has been in business for about 40 years and has a _lot_ of people who've built this particular style of house. Most of whom have been quite happy with their final results.
> Owners will tell you they're both energy efficient as well as stout. (For a post and beam house, they're actually OVERbuilt when you consider the spans between the bents.)
> 
> Myself, I have no desire whatsoever for "simple, stick built."
> It's the least energy-efficient method out there. It uses a LOT of materials that off-gas (drywall, fiberglass insulation, OSB/ply, etc.) making it extremely unhealthy and that's even before you get into aesthetic preferences... :shrug:


I'm curious,
as IIRC, you live in a trailer you paid a couple of hundred bucks for? 

Perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to your education, and/or experience as a builder, designer or engineer? And ,if you would, why you are such a cheerleader for this outfit? 

I really have no interest in debating you on this subject, as past evidence indicates you tend to be a bit light on facts, and knowledge. But when you have the ability to do the calcs. on things like wind loading, racking and microburst potential, flame spread ratings of unblocked Polyiso. foam and other serious matters, get back to us. 

Until then, think about your foolish comments like the fact that stick building is the least energy efficient option. I build my most inexpensive products with R-50 ceilings, you want to compare that to two inches foam over boards? It's too silly to even compare. You claim that the homes you love so much, (but don't own) are wonderfully healthy compared to high quality conventional construction? You really think a tight structure wrapped in plastic (Tyvek) and surrounded by several inches of Polyisoanurate is just great, eh? 

Being a competent builder and designer is something that takes decades of education and experience. Cheerleading something you barely understand is a pretty easy thing to do in comparison.


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## tiogacounty

MushCreek said:


> High permits tell me that they do not want you to build unless you have a lot of money. I read on another forum about a guy who spent $58,000 for various fees and permits to build a cabin in CA. Not a mansion- a CABIN! Here in FL, it costs thousands to get a permit for a house. In SC, where our property is, it costs hundreds.


Dead on with this logic. During the last boom I had a friend who did a tear-down and rebuild in Berkley Ca. His design and plan review process took about 18 months and the total cost was just shy of $100K. His new place was roughly 1000 sq. ft. above ground and an equal amount of finished space in a basement. total coast was roughly $900K. The bottom line in some parts of CA. is that you are either rich enough to play the game, or you need to find another place to live. A bit of the "we don't care for your kind in these parts" mentality, but instead of saying it to your face, they deliver the message to your wallet.


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## City Bound

Tioga, people express their opinions here. Other people can take those opinions or leave them.


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## Julieanne

tiogacounty said:


> As a builder with a few decades of experience, I have had some heated debates about this product, here on the forum. IMHO, it is a lightly built, lightly insulated home with a lot of issues. Others may disagree, but I think that a Stick built home is far superior in many ways, and that a SIPS panel structure would simply crush a "First day" product in any comparison. From the info. and pictures on their website, I cannot imagine how they can meet current requirements for deflection, snow loading, braced wall lines, insulation levels or fire blocking. Remember however, that in some cases where things look awfully lightly done, a company can get the approval of a licensed engineer or architect to basically over-ride a lot of current code requirements.
> 
> In my area, If I wanted to build a very light duty post and beam structure and wrap it with horizontal boards and a few inches of foam, it simply would never get past the plan review stages. Minimum code requirements are just that, the least you can do to provide a modestly energy efficient structure with a reasonable level of durability and fire resistance. In this case, I can't see it meeting those minimum requirements.
> YMMV, but I certainly wouldn't bother with this company.
> 
> BTW, your buddy is wrong about costs. By designing a very simple stick built structure, shopping locally and aggressively for material, and doing all the work yourself, you end up with the lowest cost for a new home. Once you buy a kit product from a company, you introduce their overhead, labor, advertising, consulting, engineering, transportation costs and profit into the deal. Therefore, 99% of the time, it will cost more in the end.


Thanks for the info! I will definitely look more closely at my options.


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## tiogacounty

City Bound said:


> Tioga, people express their opinions here. Other people can take those opinions or leave them.


Quick question for you?
You are trapped in an oncoming hurricane, or a brutal thunderstorm, and the home you are in is blasted by 100 MPH winds. Your will live or die in the next minute. Your future will be decided by the structural integrity of your home. Survival depends on the quality of the design and construction. Do you want to be in a structure designed by a professional and built by a competent knowledgeable builder, who cares about his products? Or is it better to build your own home , based on the opinions of somebody who doesn't have a clue, yet is a passionate fan of something that looks attractive, but has some serious shortcomings? 

BTW, I have explained these issues in detail in previous threads on this product, only to have another member respond like a little ankle biting dog, while they drone on about things they have no knowledge of, and attack my credibility. 

I participate on DIY homebuilding threads as a counterbalance to the dreamers and BSers out there. I have built structures, from one room block huts, in the jungles of the Phillipines, to 550,000 ft. institutions. I currently build several custom homes a year. I know construction a bit better than most. It is physically hard,. It takes a good bit of knowledge and skill to produce a credible product. It is rarely cheap, or quick. I love to see members here succeed and have no issue with helping any way I can. I hate to see folks attach a lot of energy and commitment to fringe ideas that end up with poor results. 

If you disagree with my ideas, provide some evidence that I'm wrong. Share your knowledge and experience, not your opinion based on a website you like. Don't just make statements like, "don't worry too much about what Tioga says", and expect that I'll just defer to your opinion, based on the fact that you know how to read sales literature and can describe a structure as "stout and sturdy looking". 

Many who take the leap from dreaming and talking, to being a DIY homebuilders, succeed and live happily in their own homes. There is a far darker side to the issue however. Many end up over their heads, disillusioned, divorced, of financially damaged in the end. Since the days of the early Sears kit home and the original homestead grants of the west, there have been those that made their money stoking the DIY dream. Remember that your success is not a requirement FOR THEIR SUCCESS. They need to sell you the dream and get you to open you wallet. Once they have your money, and you have your:

Log Home kit
Cottage Kit
Adobe block Machine
load of foam ICFs
Portable Sawmill
round house kit
Yurt
Dome kit 
ETC..........

They have accomplished their goal. Interestingly, having been a part of this for the last thirty years, I have noticed a few consistent commonalities among all the dream sellers and their followers. The one universal truth is that everybody who makes, or dreams of buying the product is, well smugly superior. Their universal boogieman is the stick frame builder and how stupid and inferior they and their products are.

Oddly enough, the reality of tens of millions of single family homes seems to indicate otherwise. It remains the dominant force in residential construction for countless reasons. However, for our purposes here on HT, there are two reasons that should never be forgotten. First, stick framing is the dominant "language" of residential housing in North America. Your path to a roof over your head will always be smoothest if you stick with what is well known and comfortable to those you need to interact with. This means everybody from your local contractors and code officials, to your PITA mother in law who isn't happy that her child is involved with a flake who wants to live in a shipping container, raise chickens and keep goats as pets. Second, you can built a traditional stick house to suit your needs and budget. It is entirely possible to build one for virtually nothing in the right place, with the right attitude. We are a society of gross consumers. Everything you need to put a roof over your head could be somebody else's cast-offs, if you have the time and creativity to make it happen. On the other end of the spectrum, you can easily build a stick, Net-Zero place that creates more energy than it uses. The info. to do so is readily available, and all you need is the will and budget to succeed. What you don't need is a "Guru" to tell you that they hold the keys to DIY success, IF you buy into their dream. The dream is at the end of your wrists, it takes a circular saw and a hammer. Get out there, volunteer with Habitat, read a book, learn, build something small. Grow, learn, then put your own roof over your head. Don't waste time and money paying for ideas, kits and concepts that you don't need. If you want it bad enough, you will get there. Good luck


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## TNHermit

tiogacounty said:


> Quick question for you?
> You are trapped in an oncoming hurricane, or a brutal thunderstorm, and the home you are in is blasted by 100 MPH winds. Your will live or die in the next minute. Your future will be decided by the structural integrity of your home. Survival depends on the quality of the design and construction. Do you want to be in a structure designed by a professional and built by a competent knowledgeable builder, who cares about his products? Or is it better to build your own home , based on the opinions of somebody who doesn't have a clue, yet is a passionate fan of something that looks attractive, but has some serious shortcomings?
> 
> BTW, I have explained these issues in detail in previous threads on this product, only to have another member respond like a little ankle biting dog, while they drone on about things they have no knowledge of, and attack my credibility.
> 
> I participate on DIY homebuilding threads as a counterbalance to the dreamers and BSers out there. I have built structures, from one room block huts, in the jungles of the Phillipines, to 550,000 ft. institutions. I currently build several custom homes a year. I know construction a bit better than most. It is physically hard,. It takes a good bit of knowledge and skill to produce a credible product. It is rarely cheap, or quick. I love to see members here succeed and have no issue with helping any way I can. I hate to see folks attach a lot of energy and commitment to fringe ideas that end up with poor results.
> 
> If you disagree with my ideas, provide some evidence that I'm wrong. Share your knowledge and experience, not your opinion based on a website you like. Don't just make statements like, "don't worry too much about what Tioga says", and expect that I'll just defer to your opinion, based on the fact that you know how to read sales literature and can describe a structure as "stout and sturdy looking".
> 
> Many who take the leap from dreaming and talking, to being a DIY homebuilders, succeed and live happily in their own homes. There is a far darker side to the issue however. Many end up over their heads, disillusioned, divorced, of financially damaged in the end. Since the days of the early Sears kit home and the original homestead grants of the west, there have been those that made their money stoking the DIY dream. Remember that your success is not a requirement FOR THEIR SUCCESS. They need to sell you the dream and get you to open you wallet. Once they have your money, and you have your:
> 
> Log Home kit
> Cottage Kit
> Adobe block Machine
> load of foam ICFs
> Portable Sawmill
> round house kit
> Yurt
> Dome kit
> ETC..........
> 
> They have accomplished their goal. Interestingly, having been a part of this for the last thirty years, I have noticed a few consistent commonalities among all the dream sellers and their followers. The one universal truth is that everybody who makes, or dreams of buying the product is, well smugly superior. Their universal boogieman is the stick frame builder and how stupid and inferior they and their products are.
> 
> Oddly enough, the reality of tens of millions of single family homes seems to indicate otherwise. It remains the dominant force in residential construction for countless reasons. However, for our purposes here on HT, there are two reasons that should never be forgotten. First, stick framing is the dominant "language" of residential housing in North America. Your path to a roof over your head will always be smoothest if you stick with what is well known and comfortable to those you need to interact with. This means everybody from your local contractors and code officials, to your PITA mother in law who isn't happy that her child is involved with a flake who wants to live in a shipping container, raise chickens and keep goats as pets. Second, you can built a traditional stick house to suit your needs and budget. It is entirely possible to build one for virtually nothing in the right place, with the right attitude. We are a society of gross consumers. Everything you need to put a roof over your head could be somebody else's cast-offs, if you have the time and creativity to make it happen. On the other end of the spectrum, you can easily build a stick, Net-Zero place that creates more energy than it uses. The info. to do so is readily available, and all you need is the will and budget to succeed. What you don't need is a "Guru" to tell you that they hold the keys to DIY success, IF you buy into their dream. The dream is at the end of your wrists, it takes a circular saw and a hammer. Get out there, volunteer with Habitat, read a book, learn, build something small. Grow, learn, then put your own roof over your head. Don't waste time and money paying for ideas, kits and concepts that you don't need. If you want it bad enough, you will get there. Good luck


Great thoughts. Sounds like myself. the point for most do-it yourselfers is when the dry wall is hung. Its seems to be the point they think its done instead of the half way point.
the trouble has been the Glitz has outdone common sense and good thinking. that why the housing market is where its at. Saw it coming in the 80-90's when i lived in Denver area.
I've also done everything from Yurts for Vail to Holiday Inns to whole factories.

I have to give you credit. i gave up a long time ago. occasionally I will say something but it usually is ignored


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## City Bound

Tiago, you make some good points. Your opinions and experience are just as vallid as everyone elses. 

I personally believe in choice. I believe people should be able to chose diy or going with a building firm or contractor. If our only choice was to a building firm or a contractor then some people, like myself, would never have a chance to own their own home, because they would never be able to afford the costs. I think that is why most people are stuck renting and slaving away for a morgage, they ether can not afford to make their own home or they are not allowed to. 

The cost of shelter in an industrial society keeps most of us poor.

You are right, people get in over their heads with diy renovations and go broke or get divorced. We need to use forthought and prudence in all areas of our lives, but life is a gamble and sometimes we win, and sometimes we lose.


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## tiogacounty

City Bound said:


> Tiago, you make some good points. Your opinions and experience are just as vallid as everyone elses.
> 
> I personally believe in choice. I believe people should be able to chose diy or going with a building firm or contractor. If our only choice was to a building firm or a contractor then some people, like myself, would never have a chance to own their own home, because they would never be able to afford the costs. I think that is why most people are stuck renting and slaving away for a morgage, they ether can not afford to make their own home or they are not allowed to.
> 
> The cost of shelter in an industrial society keeps most of us poor.
> 
> You are right, people get in over their heads with diy renovations and go broke or get divorced. We need to use forthought and prudence in all areas of our lives, but life is a gamble and sometimes we win, and sometimes we lose.


Wow, rarely have I read a reply to my post where I have so strongly agreed and disagreed with various bits.

First, and foremost, opinions and experiences are NOT equally valid. The ability to bang on a keyboard does not grant one a valid opinion, or give one the ability to fabricate experience worth sharing. Information is not a democracy, where all is equally weighted. The ability to shared knowledge should be democratic, the value of such shared knowledge, however must be carefully weighed. 

For example, I read Forerunner's work with intense attention, as I value his opinion and experience. Using his knowledge, I now have a garden that is no longer hard clay and shale, but a glorious, fluffy pillow of horse poop and composted wood chips. My plants are clearly grateful for his opinion and experience. Were I to jump on his thread to opine my opinions and experience, it would obviously not be equal to him. First I have very little experience in the art of soil improvement. Second, my knowledge base is exceptionally limited as I have only just begun to attempt to improve my soil. Therefore my limited experience in composting has created an opinion that is of little value to members of HT, as there is little education, experience or a "body of work" to draw upon, if I were finding a need to express my opinion. In this case, I follow the words of Twain, when he said, "It is better to keep your mouth closed, and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt".

Second, I never advocate for any lack of choice in any member's path toward freedom, be it financial or housing related. I do however vigorously warn against those dreamers and salesmen who advocate for their specific construction method, kit, style, etc,,, as being the one and only true path. I have seen a lot of junk in my time. Everything from foam sheathed homes (less than 10 years old) that were falling down from rot and mold, to log "dream homes" that were absolute disasters due to horrible design and construction errors. Want to know how many earth sheltered "Mold factories" were built in these parts in the 70s and 80? Too many to count. At the moment I know of a few that cannot be occupied without several dehumidifiers running 24/7, and they have virtually no resale value. Yet, you can find Mother Earth News articles of that era that make it clear that only a fool would pass up on the opportunity to live underground. 

Last, you are way beyond 100% correct with your thoughts on the cost of shelter and the slavery that it brings. The issue is far more solvable than most would imagine however. The very first thing that needs to be done is to reset our values as a society. We simply do not have a need for the vast majority of what we want. In the 1950s a typical new home was less than 1000 sq. ft with a bathroom, three bedrooms and no frills. A typical family had a car, not three of them. Oddly enough, some sociologists claim that most Americans were happier then. Our current housing depression has led to new construction homes shrinking to the low 2000 ft. range as opposed to the mid 2000 range a few years ago. Far more space and cost than most of us really need. 

If we were to shift to a housing market that addressed our needs, not wants, and we financed said needs in a responsible fashion, you would see another massive short term fall in home values. However, the long term gain would be fantastic. If the average first time buyer had 20% down and was shopping for an average new home of 1000 sq. ft. being a wage slave could become a thing of the past. IMHO, it won't ever happen, but it sure would be a healthy direction to head.


----------



## ErinP

tiogacounty said:


> I'm curious,
> as IIRC, you live in a trailer you paid a couple of hundred bucks for?
> 
> Perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to your education, and/or experience as a builder, designer or engineer? And ,if you would, why you are such a cheerleader for this outfit?


I'm not even remotely a cheerleader for "this outfit." If you'll notice, I repeatedly point out, I like the design, but I'm not buying their kit. I think it's overpriced for what you're getting. 
However, the basic design has been around for decades. It's hardly untried. For that matter, one doesn't need to be an engineer to design and build their own home. I've done it before. I'm sure I can do it again. 

And if you have no interest in debating this subject, why on earth do you keep posting about it?!? lol
So far as my current housing, what difference does that make? 
Since our trailer is somehow inappropriate while we're building, what type of housing would make you feel better??
Or are you just trying to belittle me to make yourself feel superior? 



> You claim that the homes you love so much, (but don't own) are wonderfully healthy compared to high quality conventional construction?


Ummm... yeah. :shrug: The off-gassing in conventional stud-frame materials isn't healthy. 
There's really no debate on that issue. 


But I've seen enough of your posts to have come to the realization that you think you're the only one who should be allowed to speak on this type of question. _Everyone_ who dares to disagree with you is met with your snide comments. 

And considering how many people are building their own homes on this forum, you'd better stop spending so much time telling me how stupid _I_ am, and spread your joy a little further afield or you'll never catch them all! :happy0035:


----------



## ErinP

PS: You should slip over the Country Plans forum and see all the morons there that are building their own homes, too!! 
We could probably benefit from the generous sharing of your wisdom over there, too.

Here's the thing tioga--
It's entirely likely that you DO know more about building than the vast majority of people on this board, but that doesn't really matter. People can, and do, build their own homes every day in this country. A DIYer will usually take about 20 times longer than a pro, but the final result isn't by default inferior (a trip around Country Plans would prove that actually). 

People also build using methods you're obviously _completely_ unfamiliar with (strawbale, cordwood, post and beam, etc.) Rather than ridiculing them and their plans simply because you don't understand what they're talking about, maybe do some research and learn about the method in question. 
THEN comment. With respect to the fact that the person you're speaking to has probably done _far_ more research than you have, btw. 

Otherwise, the way you've been up til now, you waltz into this type of conversation, proclaim your expertise, insist everyone else is a fool for wanting to think outside the box and just generally make yourself look like a horse's behind.


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## unioncreek

I don't have a problem with Home Depot's lumber, I pick through and get what I want. But, I've also had them put an order together and have told them if they put bad one's in I'll make them pull the order apart and go through it while I watching. I've never had to make them do it.

Aside from that Home Depot's prices are consistent so I know what the prices will be. But, check with your local yard, in our location they change daily and can be cheaper.

Bobg


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## tiogacounty

erinp said:


> i'm not even remotely a cheerleader for "this outfit." if you'll notice, i repeatedly point out, i like the design, but i'm not buying their kit. I think it's overpriced for what you're getting.
> 
> *Quite a serious departure from your previous cheerleading for this company? Now they are overpriced, and you are no longer singing their praises? What happened?*
> 
> However, the basic design has been around for decades. It's hardly untried. For that matter, one doesn't need to be an engineer to design and build their own home. I've done it before. I'm sure i can do it again.
> 
> *lots of designs, concepts and ideas have been around for decades. Many of them can be improved on with a bit of knowledge and education. Others are best left in the past as they are no longer relevant from a structural or energy consumption standpoint.
> *
> And if you have no interest in debating this subject, why on earth do you keep posting about it?!? Lol
> 
> *i have a lifelong interest in this subject, have built countless homes, and continue to spend time researching and attempting to improve my knowledge and products. Debating with somebody who really doesn't know what they are talking about, however, holds little interest.*
> So far as my current housing, what difference does that make?
> 
> *Arrogantly dismissing my experience and knowledge on serious matters, like fire safety and structural integrity, while posting of your adventures in your $500 trailer is the definition of irony, imho.*
> Since our trailer is somehow inappropriate while we're building, what type of housing would make you feel better??
> Or are you just trying to belittle me to make yourself feel superior?
> *
> Pointing out the reality of your situation is far from belittling.*
> 
> 
> Ummm... Yeah. :shrug: The off-gassing in conventional stud-frame materials isn't healthy.
> There's really no debate on that issue.
> 
> *Look up polyisocyanurate foam, outgassing, flame spread ratings and a spectrographic breakdown of the toxins emitted when burned. Then we can discuss health issues and the product you cheerlead, yet do not want to own.*
> 
> 
> But i've seen enough of your posts to have come to the realization that you think you're the only one who should be allowed to speak on this type of question. _everyone_ who dares to disagree with you is met with your snide comments.
> 
> *I love to read and learn from anybody who has experience and knowledge in owner building, alternative building and many other topics here on ht. Your comments do little to add to the conversation, however. *
> 
> And considering how many people are building their own homes on this forum, you'd better stop spending so much time telling me how stupid _i_ am, and spread your joy a little further afield or you'll never catch them all! :happy0035:


*nothing to do with you being stupid. I don't give folks my opinion on how to raise goats, as I wouldn't know what end to feed. See a parallel in your attack of my experience?*


----------



## tiogacounty

ErinP said:


> PS: You should slip over the Country Plans forum and see all the morons there that are building their own homes, too!!
> We could probably benefit from the generous sharing of your wisdom over there, too.
> 
> Here's the thing tioga--
> It's entirely likely that you DO know more about building than the vast majority of people on this board, but that doesn't really matter. People can, and do, build their own homes every day in this country. A DIYer will usually take about 20 times longer than a pro, but the final result isn't by default inferior (a trip around Country Plans would prove that actually).
> 
> People also build using methods you're obviously _completely_ unfamiliar with (strawbale, cordwood, post and beam, etc.) Rather than ridiculing them and their plans simply because you don't understand what they're talking about, maybe do some research and learn about the method in question.
> THEN comment. With respect to the fact that the person you're speaking to has probably done _far_ more research than you have, btw.
> 
> Otherwise, the way you've been up til now, you waltz into this type of conversation, proclaim your expertise, insist everyone else is a fool for wanting to think outside the box and just generally make yourself look like a horse's behind.


You seem to have a remarkable ability to see a whole lot of things that are not real. I can't imagine where you determined that I have ever ridiculed anybody that wanted to, is in the process of, or successfully completed any alternative housing project. Any construction technique involves a carefully weighed understanding of the positive and negative aspect of the technique.This is information that you will NOT be getting from the cheerleaders of the idea. As TN Hermit made clear, it can be tough to attempt to get some folks to believe that their chosen path may not be a wonderful one, filled with puppies and rainbows. 

We can have a sword fight forever over your distaste for me personally, and the fact that I do not appreciate your attacks of any critical comments I make. In the end it's meaningless. Your comment about that which I am "obviously unfamiliar" is hilarious. I have build hand cut timber-frames, log homes, SIPS, super-insulated structures, and other alternatives to standard stick products. They all have good and bad points. If you want every educated member here to tell you how wonderful your ideas are, and that they are completely free of any down side, your going to always be disappointed.

Oh, BTW. Thanks for the "tip" on the County Home plans forum, I've been there for years. Funny how you assume that I would be critical of all the great design work, positive examples of the owner-builder experience, or the tremendous value it provides to the community of owner builders. I guess the fact that I may be a contributor there, or that my work may of appeared there, is a little too much for you to process?......later.


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## kvr28

tiogacounty pa?


----------



## J.T.M.

" to your PITA mother in law who isn't happy that her child is involved with a flake who wants to live in a shipping container, raise chickens and keep goats as pets. "


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## Guest

I am finishing building a chicken coop. I checked prices at the Menards (50 miles away), the local lumber yards (25 miles away), and the neighbor who has a sawmill (2 miles away). The neighbor and Menards were about the same price while the lumber yards were about 30 % higher. Delivery wasn't an issue because I was able to haul the small amount of lumber needed and the fact that I was going to the big city anyway. The neighbor produces true 2X4s, rough sawn, jack pine or white pine, and air dried. Menards lumber is smaller because it is planned smooth, don't know what species of pine it is, and kiln dried. I went with the neighbor's dimentional lumber because I know how hard it is to make a living here and it is stronger because it is bigger. His lumber also has less embodied energy because it is transported a lot shorter distance. I believe in being green when it costs the same or less and the wounds from the splinters have pretty much healed. The outer wall sheathing is oriented strand board (OSB) from Menards. The inner wall sheathing is panneling another neighbor salvaged from a tear down. Recyled was way cheaper than new and greener too. The windows are basement casement windows that were in the shed when I bought the place. Insulation and wireing components came from Menards or I had on hand. Roofing I had left over from roofing the house. Cement for the slab came from Menards. 

When I build a house in the next year I plan the same sort of scroung what I can, use what I have, and buy what I absolutly need philosophy. I will definiantly check delivery charges and see if there is a contractor discount for buying larger amounts when making my decisions. 

The chicken coop is now the strongest, best built structure on the place. In the event of a tornado the chickens are going to have company.


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## ErinP

tioga, I don't know what else to say. I tried to get you to understand that the way you convey yourself is not even remotely helpful. 
You come across as a know-it-all horse's behind. 

NO ONE is interested in taking advice from someone that can't even express a different opinion without resorting to name calling and ridicule. 
Good heavens, this isn't General Chat.  

And if you _have_ been a member of Country Plans for years, I don't know how you've missed the members who've built FirstDay houses. With great success, even. :shrug:

But all of that said, I have to concede defeat. I just have never been able to figure out how to deal constructively with nasty people. 
So, I guess you get to be part of the _very_ small and exclusive club that is my ignore list.


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## J.T.M.

Tiogas post are to wordy for me so I just skimmed his replys .But when I seen this - 

" to your PITA mother in law who isn't happy that her child is involved with a flake who wants to live in a shipping container, raise chickens and keep goats as pets. " 
I LOLED big time ...........


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## tiogacounty

ErinP said:


> tioga, I don't know what else to say. I tried to get you to understand that the way you convey yourself is not even remotely helpful.
> You come across as a know-it-all horse's behind.
> 
> *I have spent weeks on a thread or in PM helping members on HT with construction related issues and developing solutions that met their needs. If you find me to be an ass, or do not like what I have to say, ignore me.
> *
> NO ONE is interested in taking advice from someone that can't even express a different opinion without resorting to name calling and ridicule.
> Good heavens, this isn't General Chat.
> 
> *Your opinion, nothing more. Do you think it is shared by other members here, when I take the time to do things like, steer them toward valuable resources that allow them to make an informed decision, or spend my own time doing structural calculations, or voltage drop calculations that end up saving them hundred or thousands of dollars
> *
> And if you _have_ been a member of Country Plans for years, I don't know how you've missed the members who've built FirstDay houses. With great success, even. :shrug:
> 
> *Really an odd assumption on your part? How do you claim to know what I may have missed on another forum? Because I have no need to cheerlead for a concept that I find lacking, I have missed something? BTW, the "Grandfather cottage" is remarkably similar to products that I build.
> 
> *
> 
> But all of that said, I have to concede defeat. I just have never been able to figure out how to deal constructively with nasty people.
> So, I guess you get to be part of the _very_ small and exclusive club that is my ignore list.
> 
> *Hopefully, I will be able to forge on without you. Being on your ignore list is an incalculable blow to my inflated ego and my world view in general. Take me back........please!!!!!!:*


----------



## TNHermit

ErinP said:


> tioga, I don't know what else to say. I tried to get you to understand that the way you convey yourself is not even remotely helpful.
> You come across as a know-it-all horse's behind.
> 
> NO ONE is interested in taking advice from someone that can't even express a different opinion without resorting to name calling and ridicule.
> Good heavens, this isn't General Chat.
> 
> And if you _have_ been a member of Country Plans for years, I don't know how you've missed the members who've built FirstDay houses. With great success, even. :shrug:
> 
> But all of that said, I have to concede defeat. I just have never been able to figure out how to deal constructively with nasty people.
> So, I guess you get to be part of the _very_ small and exclusive club that is my ignore list.


I'm gonna stick my nose in here becasue I know what he is saying or trying to do. I been around long enough to have people come back and say they wish they had listened to me or how can they fix what is all screwed up.
There is an old saying that "even a horse knows how to eat the hay and spit out the sticks"
You may not like his delivery but you might be far better off to dig out and research the hay. he may save you some money .
Thats the problem with all this political correctness nowadays. If somebody doesn't come along and soothe our ego while trying to tell us something useful we get all bent out of shape.
I can tell you that some of the best things I have learned have been from people I wouldn't walk across the street to spit on.

If you put it on the far end of the scale. People like Hitler ,Stalinand OBL have taught us things


----------



## tiogacounty

Nimrod said:


> I am finishing building a chicken coop. I checked prices at the Menards (50 miles away), the local lumber yards (25 miles away), and the neighbor who has a sawmill (2 miles away). The neighbor and Menards were about the same price while the lumber yards were about 30 % higher. Delivery wasn't an issue because I was able to haul the small amount of lumber needed and the fact that I was going to the big city anyway. The neighbor produces true 2X4s, rough sawn, jack pine or white pine, and air dried. Menards lumber is smaller because it is planned smooth, don't know what species of pine it is, and kiln dried. I went with the neighbor's dimentional lumber because I know how hard it is to make a living here and it is stronger because it is bigger. His lumber also has less embodied energy because it is transported a lot shorter distance. I believe in being green when it costs the same or less and the wounds from the splinters have pretty much healed. The outer wall sheathing is oriented strand board (OSB) from Menards. The inner wall sheathing is panneling another neighbor salvaged from a tear down. Recyled was way cheaper than new and greener too. The windows are basement casement windows that were in the shed when I bought the place. Insulation and wireing components came from Menards or I had on hand. Roofing I had left over from roofing the house. Cement for the slab came from Menards.
> 
> When I build a house in the next year I plan the same sort of scroung what I can, use what I have, and buy what I absolutly need philosophy. I will definiantly check delivery charges and see if there is a contractor discount for buying larger amounts when making my decisions.
> 
> The chicken coop is now the strongest, best built structure on the place. In the event of a tornado the chickens are going to have company.


*Warning the following response is provided by a clueless, horse's ass that may hurt your feelings and give advice that runs counter to your puppies and rainbows world view. *




Sweet. Nice job.

Just a thought, since you appear to have firm plans for starting your home. If you have the cash, now may be the time to pick up things that store well, and you know that you will be needing next year. The industry LOVES any excuse for getting pricing to explode. last year I was in Northern BC and ran into unemployed workers from the local OSB plant, They said that the entire industry was deader that dead. I get home to find my lumber salesman telling me that somebody is trying to fabricate a run-up in OSB pricing and that they ( a chain with several hundred stores) are now buying 7/16" for over $13/sheet. Naturally the pricing collapsed since then, and it's now $5.69 at my local Home Depot. The moral of this tale is that there are price increases coming for many reasons. Shingles are scheduled to go up 20% the first of June, at my local supplier. My plumbing supplier is getting price increases on plastic pipe, often daily. Once the damage from all this flooding becomes more defined, it's just another reason to jack everything up higher. IMHO, pre-buying might be the best use you have for any free cash at the moment. I would stick to hard goods that store well, I'm always hesitant to buy dimensional lumber ahead of time, it tends to twist, get moldy or get dry hard as a rock, depending on how it's stored. Good luck on your new place, and where are the pics. of the coop?


----------



## TNHermit

tiogacounty said:


> *Warning the following response is provided by a clueless, horse's ass that may hurt your feelings and give advice that runs counter to your puppies and rainbows world view. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ive been called a Boorish Ass  And there is a term for that :cowboy:


----------



## ErinP

TNHermit said:


> You may not like his delivery but you might be far better off to dig out and research the hay. he may save you some money .
> Thats the problem with all this political correctness nowadays. If somebody doesn't come along and soothe our ego while trying to tell us something useful we get all bent out of shape.s


If he were correct, that would be another issue entirely.
He is not. Pure and simple. He doesn't know what he's talking about. 
Perfect example was trying to say that the structures in question are weak. Yet anyone who has done any studying on design principles for P&B houses will recognize that they're actually OVERbuilt. 
Another example is trying to create a distraction from the off-gassing of common construction materials by saying that polyiso will off gas when it's _on fire_. Well duh. 
The same is true of ANY materials. 
However, the liklihood that your house is going to burn is pretty slim. The liklihood that it's going to off-gas _just by sitting_ there is a guarantee. 


Also, something I've learned over the years is that construction pros frequently disagree on REALLY big issues. And each party will have perfectly sound reasons for why his method is the better one. 

Read the Letters to the Editor in any issue of This Old House, Family Handyman, Journal of Light Construction, etc. and you'll see what I mean. 
Yet amazingly, each of these letters still manages to maintain civility and manners, despite disagreement. There's no condescension, name calling, or ridicule. 
That's not "political correctness," that's just basic human decency.


----------



## tiogacounty

ErinP said:


> If he were correct, that would be another issue entirely.
> He is not. Pure and simple. He doesn't know what he's talking about.
> Perfect example was trying to say that the structures in question are weak. Yet anyone who has done any studying on design principles for P&B houses will recognize that they're actually OVERbuilt.
> Another example is trying to create a distraction from the off-gassing of common construction materials by saying that polyiso will off gas when it's _on fire_. Well duh.
> The same is true of ANY materials.
> However, the liklihood that your house is going to burn is pretty slim. The liklihood that it's going to off-gas _just by sitting_ there is a guarantee.
> 
> 
> Also, something I've learned over the years is that construction pros frequently disagree on REALLY big issues. And each party will have perfectly sound reasons for why his method is the better one.
> 
> Read the Letters to the Editor in any issue of This Old House, Family Handyman, Journal of Light Construction, etc. and you'll see what I mean.
> Yet amazingly, each of these letters still manages to maintain civility and manners, despite disagreement. There's no condescension, name calling, or ridicule.
> That's not "political correctness," that's just basic human decency.


You can't even muster enough class to honor your threat to ignore me? 

Oh well, here we go again. 

Structural issues

POST and BEAM, is a generic term describing a moderate to heavy timber structure utilizing members connected in a manner other than joinery, IE, mortise and tenon, dovetail, half lap, pegged connections etc... Structures using timber to timber joinery are typically referred to as Timber Frames. 

P & B connection methods vary from a specified number of over-sized nails at joints (barn spikes) to highly engineered plate connectors, bolts, tension ties, haunched seat connectors, post hold downs, and related hardware. For those interested in a general overview of manufactured hardware, Simpson industries has a line of heavy connectors with illustrations and design value listed in their catalog. That said, most commonly seen P&B structures, particularly in light commercial and institutional settings, tend to feature application specific hardware that is designed and custom manufactured for the loads imposed and the desired design asthetics. 

Given the enormous number of potential design variables, IE, wind loads, snow loading, seismic potential, live and static floor and roof loading potential, etc.. and other variables such as timber species selection and finished product quality, no responsible design professional would describe post and beam construction as being generically superior to other methods, or specifically regarded as "Overbuilt". 

A quick perusal of the website that my opponent seems to be enamored with indicates that, at best, braced wall issues, racking resistance, an a host of other potential structural issues are visible on the photos shown. These problems may, or may not, be resolvable within the standards of current code requirements. That said, giving the product a glowing review simply based on the fact that it has utilized a lightly constructed post and beam structure, is irresponsible at best. 

Designing and building a home, with no regard to easily understood, and inexpensive fire resistant techniques because the "chance of it burning is slim" is a new level of ignorance and simply unworthy of a reply. Darwin addressed this issue nicely. 

As for out-gassing. To review. My opponent has determined, with no scientific basis, that traditionally built homes can not be built in a manner that results in a safe dwelling, free of toxins. She has also determined that occupying a structure tightly sealed in plastic and foam is a truly health experience, once again apparently based on her beliefs. No factual basis or data required.

My opponent is correct, construction professionals disagree, often with great conviction, and a lot of lawyers involved. Having been a part of such events, many times, I can assure that they are limited to construction professionals, not those who use pretty pictures on a website as a substitute for knowledge, education and experience.

Erin, in a nod to the basic human decency you seek, and in acknowledgment of the fact that you have no interest in facts, I must now surrender to you. You are correct, the pretty pictures are wonderful. Structure, energy efficiency and fire safety are meaningless. Nobody on this forum has any interest in hearing from anybody that disagrees with you, and I simply was a fool to think that I should ever question your vast body of experience. I humbly apologize. 


Seriously, I'm done........babble on.


----------



## TNHermit

ErinP said:


> If he were correct, that would be another issue entirely.
> He is not. Pure and simple. He doesn't know what he's talking about.
> Perfect example was trying to say that the structures in question are weak. Yet anyone who has done any studying on design principles for P&B houses will recognize that they're actually OVERbuilt.
> Another example is trying to create a distraction from the off-gassing of common construction materials by saying that polyiso will off gas when it's _on fire_. Well duh.
> The same is true of ANY materials.
> However, the liklihood that your house is going to burn is pretty slim. The liklihood that it's going to off-gas _just by sitting_ there is a guarantee.
> 
> 
> Also, something I've learned over the years is that construction pros frequently disagree on REALLY big issues. And each party will have perfectly sound reasons for why his method is the better one.
> 
> Read the Letters to the Editor in any issue of This Old House, Family Handyman, Journal of Light Construction, etc. and you'll see what I mean.
> Yet amazingly, each of these letters still manages to maintain civility and manners, despite disagreement. There's no condescension, name calling, or ridicule.
> That's not "political correctness," that's just basic human decency.


I built "KIT" homes for years. The first builder i worked for built custom and kits. The kits stood up but were cheap. Period and over priced.
That kit is not Post and Beam. And it IS as Tioga said. i looked all over the place trying to find the lateral bracing and such and found none. They even pride themselves on no plywood. Solid wood nailed two inches away from solid wood is not the way to lateral brace.
But this is really no different than all the houses that they sold and we built on benttonite clay in Denver that the engineers assured us was no problem. They are now falling down.
As far as off gassing. A great part of the building industry has gone with that scare tactic put out by the global warming crowd. If you use a vapor barrier then all the off gassing will be to the outside. with the exception of drywall and paint. I would worry more about the carpet than the off gassing of the rest
I get at least 7 of the top trade magazines. I generally throw them away when they come.


----------



## City Bound

Building and construction is, and has, never been writen in stone, it is a skill that has evolved more so from error then tried and true success. If we didnt try new ideas and engage our willingness to follow a dream or a hunch we would still be living in the trees or in caves. Every new advance in building has had its flawed beginings and some of the methods we use today are still flawed but we still use them. Take for example the world trade center, it is believed by some "experts" that the reason the the towers came down the way they did rather then just the top floors being damaged was because of a flaw in the design of how the floors were attached the buildings outer walls. Some of the people involved with the project knew that this design issue may turn out to be a major flaw but they built it anyway because they were over budget and behind schedule and they didnt have the time or money to rethink the problem. 
For people to dictate exclusively what is right or wrong is not always conducive to growth.... it creates red tape, elitism, stagnation, and opression. 

What is right today, may prove wrong tomorrow...what is wrong today, may prove right tomorrow. We live in a mystery.


----------



## TNHermit

City Bound said:


> Building and construction is, and has, never been writen in stone, it is a skill that has evolved more so from error then tried and true success. If we didnt try new ideas and engage our willingness to follow a dream or a hunch we would still be living in the trees or in caves. Every new advance in building has had its flawed beginings and some of the methods we use today are still flawed but we still use them. Take for example the world trade center, it is believed by some "experts" that the reason the the towers came down the way they did rather then just the top floors being damaged was because of a flaw in the design of how the floors were attached the buildings outer walls. Some of the people involved with the project knew that this design issue may turn out to be a major flaw but they built it anyway because they were over budget and behind schedule and they didnt have the time or money to rethink the problem.
> For people to dictate exclusively what is right or wrong is not always conducive to growth.... it creates red tape, elitism, stagnation, and opression.
> 
> What is right today, may prove wrong tomorrow...what is wrong today, may prove right tomorrow. We live in a mystery.


Her is a FYI 

The world trade center came down the way it did because of the Asbestos scare. the first 67 stories the steel was coated with asbestos and encased. from there up the GW, Greenies raised hell and it wasn't done/ it was an exoskeleton building if I remember right. So when the middle melted it drew the outside in and thats why it fell the way it did. I have the ONE time magazine article about it and the asbestos. it was never allowed out again and you still won't hear about it. 

As far as experimenting. I'm all for it. Thats why we have rich people who can afford to spend the money. For the person living the homesteading life (which is one of the most expensive lifestyles there is) Tired and true Is the name of the game unless they got money to waste.

For me me if I was young I would build a 40x80 pole barn. take the first 20-25 ft and make it livable with two bedrooms. Simple two wall inside and a bath. 
Then I would take the next five years save money and gather things up and store them. Make my plan of what I wanted to build. For me that I think a story and a half is the best bang for the buck. 
Then I would find some pessimistic boorish ass carpenter like me to build it. Or push the job if you got willing help.
And the number one rule that nobody EVER listens too. When the drywall is up its only half done. And the most important half that you are going to half to set and look at is yet to come. When your done you move in and you have your barn/shop/rental or what ever done.

And this will make you knot your mind. If I wanted to just spend the least amount of money I would buy a manufactured home with only the drywall on. And trim it my self. Be ready to put in new window in 5-7 years I think the modern manufactured small home (NOT A TRAILER OR THE LIKE  ) is heads and shoulders better than what these contractors are throwing together out there nowadays. On a bigger home its a different story


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## ErinP

> For the person living the homesteading life (which is one of the most expensive lifestyles there is) Tired and true Is the name of the game unless they got money to waste.


Fortunately, _many_ people think otherwise. 

Because of course, that is why we've seen such lovely DIY bale houses, earth bermed, cord wood, log and even post and beam houses shared on this board. 



> i looked all over the place trying to find the lateral bracing and such and found none.


What did the architect say when you asked him? 
(I assume you wouldn't dismiss an entire building system by just looking at a handful of snapshots...)

BTW, if you think off-gassing was created by the global warming crowd, you might want to do a little more research on the subject.


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## tiogacounty

TNHermit said:


> Her is a FYI
> 
> The world trade center came down the way it did because of the Asbestos scare. the first 67 stories the steel was coated with asbestos and encased. from there up the GW, Greenies raised hell and it wasn't done/ it was an exoskeleton building if I remember right. So when the middle melted it drew the outside in and thats why it fell the way it did. I have the ONE time magazine article about it and the asbestos. it was never allowed out again and you still won't hear about it.
> 
> As far as experimenting. I'm all for it. Thats why we have rich people who can afford to spend the money. For the person living the homesteading life (which is one of the most expensive lifestyles there is) Tired and true Is the name of the game unless they got money to waste.
> 
> For me me if I was young I would build a 40x80 pole barn. take the first 20-25 ft and make it livable with two bedrooms. Simple two wall inside and a bath.
> Then I would take the next five years save money and gather things up and store them. Make my plan of what I wanted to build. For me that I think a story and a half is the best bang for the buck.
> Then I would find some pessimistic boorish ass carpenter like me to build it. Or push the job if you got willing help.
> And the number one rule that nobody EVER listens too. When the drywall is up its only half done. And the most important half that you are going to half to set and look at is yet to come. When your done you move in and you have your barn/shop/rental or what ever done.
> 
> And this will make you knot your mind. If I wanted to just spend the least amount of money I would buy a manufactured home with only the drywall on. And trim it my self. Be ready to put in new window in 5-7 years I think the modern manufactured small home (NOT A TRAILER OR THE LIKE  ) is heads and shoulders better than what these contractors are throwing together out there nowadays. On a bigger home its a different story


Lots of back story to the towers. You are correct about Asbestos being a big issue. Right at the time the steel went up, Asbestos became a huge issue. Bethlehem Steel was erecting their world headquarters at the time, and there was a real debate as to going ahead with traditional fireproofing (asbestos). In the end they did. Due to their hubris and profoundly stupid business decisions in that era, they went from being one of the world's largest steel companies to failing entirely. Regrettably, they left a giant tower that is loaded with Asbestos, and currently too expensive to rehab. 

As for the role of Asbestos in the fall of the towers, I really would question it. First, forensics seem to indicate that all the fireproofing was blown off of critical areas due to impact and subsequent explosions. Second the design of the project resulted in a failure mode that wasn't anticipated, and not seen to date. Basically, in a desire to maximize available space per floor, the engineers took a dramatic departure from past practice. They build an "ecto-skeleton" or strong structural tube as the exterior walls. They then created "cassettes" or light weight sections of floor that were assembled from bar trusses and welded to clips on the outside walls and interior elevator shafts. At one point they even pre-assembled these cassettes in Jersey and attempted to delivery them to the site with heavy lift choppers. There is much debate about the structure, the clips that support the cassettes and other issue that deviated greatly from SOP at the time. 

The failure mode was an internal pancaking of the floor decks. once one let loose, it's mass caused a failure of each descending deck attachment and the floors violently stacked several levels below ground. I have a co-worker that was there at the time, right across the river, and working on a roof 38 stories up. He speaks of feeling the percussion blast in his chest as each floor deck smashed into the one below. He then did rescue work with a team of Port Authority cops. They were in the subway area, directly under the building and saw the decks, stacked. Dozens of them, each a few inches high.

There were other reasons for these design decisions. One result is that the project was instrumental in breaking the grip of the two dominant steel fabricators that ruled very large projects since the Depression. Up to this point, steel framed skyscrapers, Golden Gate class bridges and other monster projects were done by Bethlehem or US Steel's fabricating divisions. At the time, the powers at both companies only need to outbid the other to assure that they had years worth of production and fabricating profits coming their way. This project was different. It was bid out in five smaller packages and did not involve any need for the giant beams that only Beth. and US could produce. In the end both companies lost to far smaller fabricators, and much of the steel used was Japanese. Growing up in the shadow of Bethlehem Steel, it was quite evident that this was the start of a long and ugly fall of a giant.......


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## Elevenpoint

Back to the original post, it is possible to frame up and build a small home for about $20 a sq. ft., depends on the level of finish, experience, and where you are building.....you can also spend $200 a sq. ft.
I am in the planning stages of building a cabin of roughly 700 sq.ft. on my property for no more than $20 a sq.ft., however, I also have about 25 years experience in the construction field in major renovations, additions, and custom homes.
The last project that I did was a 5000 sq.ft. home that had burned 80%, I designed, engineered, and did the blueprints myself....I had a licensed engineer sign off on the plans as I did a partial demo of the house leaving the brick walls standing and framed the house up and reattached the brick walls to the framing, the house had 14 exterior doors, (7 french doors), 1000 sq.ft. of porches and the interior was all natural wood with no drywall.
What I am saying is that I do have the experience and knowledge to take on a project of this magnitude, I did learn quite a bit also.
I read this thread and others about building.....it is not every person that has the knowledge to take on a significant building project on their own, I have found that the internet and television shows about building have made nearly everyone an expert in the subject.
Before anyone gets their blood pressure up, I am not saying that nobody should build their own home, cabin, shed, etc.
Homebuilding is serious business though, setting 56 trusses up to 34' long in last summer's blazing sun was not a picnic....what you have on paper and the finished product is quite a bit more than most realize.
Framing is one aspect....I am not sure that I would want to spend the night in a dwelling that someone wired with the guidance of a ''how-to'' book.
I have had plenty of work in my life doing projects that someone else started and got in way over their head.....and I also know of quite a few that have done it themself, but have zero interest in doing it again.
I do see both sides here, I will agree it is not all puppies and rainbows though.


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## ErinP

> I have had plenty of work in my life doing projects that someone else started and got in way over their head.....and I also know of quite a few that have done it themself, but have zero interest in doing it again.
> I do see both sides here, I will agree it is not all puppies and rainbows though.


And you would have a hard time finding _anyone_ who would say otherwise.


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## TNHermit

ErinP said:


> Fortunately, _many_ people think otherwise.
> 
> Because of course, that is why we've seen such lovely DIY bale houses, earth bermed, cord wood, log and even post and beam houses shared on this board.
> 
> 
> What did the architect say when you asked him?
> (I assume you wouldn't dismiss an entire building system by just looking at a handful of snapshots...)
> 
> BTW, if you think off-gassing was created by the global warming crowd, you might want to do a little more research on the subject.


First of all anyone thinking that homesteading is cheap is fooling themselves. Thats as nice as I can be about that. there is no way in this universe you can add the cost of homesteading up and get less money spent than the average urban dwelling person Sans TOys. Homesteading is about the quality of life and being self sufficient. And even that is being compromised by the left. They like it till it fails then they want govt help.

Secondly if I have to call an architect about a basic thing like lateral bracing then that si a big warning sign right there.

See how many of those fine straw bale , log,sod and such are standing from yesteryear. they don't last without tons of upkeep. I build old fashioned wooden windows. People say they arent' as good as modern ones. Then I ask them how much maintenance they have done on them n 50 years. Compared to the ten that most last today.

As far as off gassing I have watched it develop for the last 45 years of my 64 and I can tell you it was started by a bunch of left wingers GW types. there is off gassing in everything. You can't even breathe what you yourself off gas without dieing. Thats why we have trees. Potatoes make you fat, gotta have the right light bulb. on and on. Its all BS. I just came in form the garden cussing enviros. the gallon jugs last about 15 minutes and more and I use a lot of them. Nothing like picking up a jug of water just to have it come apart on you.

Once Again I suggest that you take two old cranky builders and learn a few things besides what the green freaks are trying to tell you.

Things use to be made to do a job. Now they are made to meet a price. Sorry for the spelling. On the fly


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## tiogacounty

TNHermit said:


> See how many of those fine straw bale , log,sod and such are standing from yesteryear. they don't last without tons of upkeep. I build old fashioned wooden windows. People say they arent' as good as modern ones. Then I ask them how much maintenance they have done on them n 50 years. Compared to the ten that most last today.
> 
> *Interesting point. I don't think the average person has any idea how quickly a structure can fail without adequate maintenance, and how much of it really needs to be done over the life of a structure. I was discussing this a few weeks ago with one of the employees at the Biltmore Estate. Basically from the time it was built, at the turn of the last century, until mid century, or a short 50-60 years, it had fallen into serious decay. The issue was simple, the family attempted to occupy the place as a family residence and didn't have the millions of dollars and hundreds of employees it needed to keep it in top condition at the time. Many of our national treasures are the same way. places like Independence Hall and the many original building in DC have had mind blowing amounts of repairs and rebuilding. In that context, straw bales and logs really don't count as long term materials. *
> 
> As far as off gassing I have watched it develop for the last 45 years of my 64 and I can tell you it was started by a bunch of left wingers GW types.
> 
> *What our buddy failed to understand is that outgassing is a function of material selection. Any modern construction material can be selected with POTENTIAL outgassing concerns used as a selection criteria. I have installed insulation that was so laden with urea that is smelled like a pool of cattle pee, and it made your eyes water. I have also installed batts made of recycled cotton that would of made fine, itch free, toxic gas free pillows. As you note, a proper vapor barrier can place a lot of materials outside of the area of concern.*
> 
> 
> Sorry for the spelling. On the fly


 Spelling is fine, We know just what you have to say:grin:


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## TNHermit

tiogacounty said:


> Spelling is fine, We know just what you have to say:grin:


I ws a big fan of alternative construction when I started out. Got Mother News since 1. One of the things I got into was concrete domes back in the 80's. did a couple of those. They were suppose to be the engineered be-all end-all. What a disaster. i think it was about 10 years before they bulldozed that thing.
Alternative is fine for out buildings. prove them out. i have a hankering for a 20x24 green house cordwood construction. Like the look and an old man can do it hisself  Would never do it for a house. 
Its all about maintenance. Hard to convince people about the old double hung windows are still the best. 
As years go buy you begin to see what is the best. Standard stud, balloon framing proved itself long ago. Then was improved on by platform. Now if you put the right materials you have a solid, long term building. Still can't stand trusses though. We use to build those on the ground and bring a crane in and set the whole roof at once. But i will take a cut in roof any day. When I built my daughters house (two story that turned into three  ). Her husbands brother was building too. Came over one day with this hip and valley night mare. Asked why he didn't cut it in instead of trusses. Said his builder didn't know how. And thats the other problem today along with these glorious designs. Trouble is people don't find out till too late and dump it on the next guy. And only occasionally do they come back and tell you


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## katy

TNHermit, If you are saying you're still building wooden windows today, well I for one say you deserve a standing ovation. My reasoning, while living in a brick home that was approx 75 years old, the rope(s) broke in one of the double hung windows, my allies were an old fashioned paint / hardware store and determination. I took that thing apart put the new ropes in and while I had it apart, said Oh my, you would look so much prettier if I stripped and restained all of your wood, which I did, both windows. Not really a tough job either. Those windows were better than any double paned, thermal window I have lived with since. 

Now does anyone know where I might find directions to build one of them ?


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## City Bound

Eleven thanks for trying to get the conversation back on track.


I worked this last summer, during a heat wave, with a contractor demo-ing and remodeling a very larege home. man, oh man, what work that was in the heat.
What did I learn, for myself during that experience: Build small, it easier and more on a human scale, and it fits into my life style.

All forms of building require up keep. Sometimes health benifits, eco friendliness, and just the simple pleasure of living in a home that is closer to the natural elements of natures eco systems is worth a little more up keep each year.


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## TNHermit

katy said:


> TNHermit, If you are saying you're still building wooden windows today, well I for one say you deserve a standing ovation. My reasoning, while living in a brick home that was approx 75 years old, the rope(s) broke in one of the double hung windows, my allies were an old fashioned paint / hardware store and determination. I took that thing apart put the new ropes in and while I had it apart, said Oh my, you would look so much prettier if I stripped and restained all of your wood, which I did, both windows. Not really a tough job either. Those windows were better than any double paned, thermal window I have lived with since.
> 
> Now does anyone know where I might find directions to build one of them ?


Well Darlin 
You cna go right over here. Talk about them all the time
http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=16

There are several good books. If ya want I can put together a list or couple here 
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Building_Traditional_DoubleHung.html

Lots of subject matter here
[ame]http://www.google.com/search?q=building+double+hung+window&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1MOZA_en___US404#q=building+double+hung+window&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=Jf0&rlz=1R1MOZA_en___US404&prmd=ivns&ei=iL_ZTZCqCIns0gH7vJT8Aw&start=10&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=6af0f014ae16db6c[/ame]

DO you have a wood shop?? 

One of the problems with the old ones was those nasty storm windows we were to laxy to deal with. the old doulbe hungs are proving to be just a energy efficient as the new thermopane stuff and last years and years longer. But we've been preached to be lazy


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## City Bound

Off gasing is natural, yes, but off gasing toxic gases that are used to manufacture home products and furnishing within a hermiticly closed home is very unhealthy, even though off gasing is natural and everything off gases. it is not off gasing that is the trouble, it is the poisonous chemicals added to manufactured goods that when off gased cause the trouble.

maybe you think single pane windows are great, and that is your choice. I for one like double paned windows because they keep the cold out in winter and save me money. I grew up with single pane windows and they let the cold in to the house and I didnt even want to walk in front of them or I would catch a draft. Single pane windows with external storm windows put on for the winter (hermit, I would guess you know what I mean) are, from waht i have heard actually as warm as or warmer then double paned windows.

As for longevity, I dont see how you can say that single paned windows last longer and require less up keep. I have seen wood framed, double paned windows with a plastic covering over the outside wood last for 25 years with very little up keep. Last year I refinished the wood on one such window that was 20 years old that at one point in time had been through a house fire. All I had to do was strip the wood, stain it and reseal it and it looked fine.
Do you really think old fasioned single paned windows are superior?
What kind of corking do you use to seal the panes, what kind of finish do you apply?
My dad told me they use to have to replace the cork on those windows every year in spring because it always cracked out.

Why do you think the homesteading life style is expensive? What expenses related to that lifestyle are there that make it so expensive?


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## TNHermit

City Bound said:


> Off gasing is natural, yes, but off gasing toxic gases that are used to manufacture home products and furnishing within a hermiticly closed home is very unhealthy, even though off gasing is natural and everything off gases. it is not off gasing that is the trouble, it is the poisonous chemicals added to manufactured goods that when off gased cause the trouble.
> 
> maybe you think single pane windows are great, and that is your choice. I for one like double paned windows because they keep the cold out in winter and save me money. I grew up with single pane windows and they let the cold in to the house and I didnt even want to walk in front of them or I would catch a draft. Single pane windows with external storm windows put on for the winter (hermit, I would guess you know what I mean) are, from waht i have heard actually as warm as or warmer then double paned windows.
> 
> As for longevity, I dont see how you can say that single paned windows last longer and require less up keep. I have seen wood framed, double paned windows with a plastic covering over the outside wood last for 25 years with very little up keep. Last year I refinished the wood on one such window that was 20 years old that at one point in time had been through a house fire. All I had to do was strip the wood, stain it and reseal it and it looked fine.
> Do you really think old fasioned single paned windows are superior?
> What kind of corking do you use to seal the panes, what kind of finish do you apply?
> My dad told me they use to have to replace the cork on those windows every year in spring because it always cracked out.
> 
> Why do you think the homesteading life style is expensive? What expenses related to that lifestyle are there that make it so expensive?


This is exactly the kind of mis-information that forms most people opinions. Doubler hung windows had STORM windows that people were to lazy to put on. Secondly a properly built and taken care of double hung is no more drafty than windows today. Notice how good builders take extra time to draft proof windows nowdays. DO you think it would be any different with a double hung. how many of your thermopanes still have their seals intact after 10-15 years.
Never heard of corking a window. windows use dap 77 putty and done right it last for years. But yes you do have to maintain them. Once again its laziness not the product.

As far as sealing. You can get a house to tight. I built one in the 80's that almost killed the owner. NO fresh air could get in and the fireplace would draw the air out of the house and go out. Lessons learned. A house needs several changes of air a day. I think its 5-7. haven't looked lately. And its our laziness and want of maintenance free that causes the problem. And we are sold anything. And once again if proper vapor barriers are used the only real off gassing will be by carpet (which is for the most part disgusting) And once again it is becasue something is built to price instead of what it suppose to do and we have all kinds of cheating. The problem is not the design. Its the validity of the product as Tioga mentioned about insulation.

That same laziness is what confounds me why people want some off the wall construction. Like I said nothing wrong if you got the money and want to spend the time to keep it up.


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## TNHermit

katy said:


> TNHermit, If you are saying you're still building wooden windows today, well I for one say you deserve a standing ovation. My reasoning, while living in a brick home that was approx 75 years old, the rope(s) broke in one of the double hung windows, my allies were an old fashioned paint / hardware store and determination. I took that thing apart put the new ropes in and while I had it apart, said Oh my, you would look so much prettier if I stripped and restained all of your wood, which I did, both windows. Not really a tough job either. Those windows were better than any double paned, thermal window I have lived with since.
> 
> Now does anyone know where I might find directions to build one of them ?


Here is a PDF on how to build them
http://awwm.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/window-and-door-making1.pdf


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## City Bound

cork, putty, I know they are technically different words but in some aplications they do the same task and people (common people, the average people, people like myself who realy do not care about always being right) use those words casually to mean the same thing, when the line between the two is unclear. 

I know those windows use storm windows and that is how they are meant to function, but I have never experienced them used in their intended way so i have no idea how they perform in real life. They also use a screen that hooks onto the window the same way that the storm window hooks up. What I meant by cork is a mixture of chalk and linseed oil made into a dough and then pressed into the seems around the panes.

I dont understand what you mean about laziness compelling people to desire off the wall construction. What would be an example of one such off the wall idea and what chore would the lazy people be trying to avoid by using that off the wall idea?
In my opinion three mainstream inventions inspired by laziness prove to fall short and they are the washing machine, the dryer and the microwave.

I agree with you that many alternative ideas turn out to be duds, but so do main stream ideas, that is just the process of natural selection. The auto car was considered just a wasteful toy for the rich when it first came around, it broke a lot, it cost a lot to build and repair, and it wasnt until popular interest got involved did the car begin to take shape, become refined, and had the bugs worked out. Even today it takes the global community to produce and perfect the car. So, even a bad idea can become a better idea when more people work to iron out the problems. Look how far just a very small handfull of people have taken and refined these alternative building ideas all on their own, imagine what would happen to these alternative building ideas if the world took up the cause.......a break through would eventually be found and whatever glitches there are that some people use as proof to dismiss and discredit alternative building would be resolved. Why throw the baby out with the bath water.


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## TNHermit

City Bound said:


> cork, putty, I know they are technically different words but in some aplications they do the same task and people (common people, the average people, people like myself who realy do not care about always being right) use those words casually to mean the same thing, when the line between the two is unclear.
> 
> I know those windows use storm windows and that is how they are meant to function, but I have never experienced them used in their intended way so i have no idea how they perform in real life. They also use a screen that hooks onto the window the same way that the storm window hooks up. What I meant by cork is a mixture of chalk and linseed oil made into a dough and then pressed into the seems around the panes.
> 
> I dont understand what you mean about laziness compelling people to desire off the wall construction. What would be an example of one such off the wall idea and what chore would the lazy people be trying to avoid by using that off the wall idea?
> In my opinion three mainstream inventions inspired by laziness prove to fall short and they are the washing machine, the dryer and the microwave.
> 
> I agree with you that many alternative ideas turn out to be duds, but so do main stream ideas, that is just the process of natural selection. The auto car was considered just a wasteful toy for the rich when it first came around, it broke a lot, it cost a lot to build and repair, and it wasnt until popular interest got involved did the car begin to take shape, become refined, and had the bugs worked out. Even today it takes the global community to produce and perfect the car. So, even a bad idea can become a better idea when more people work to iron out the problems. Look how far just a very small handfull of people have taken and refined these alternative building ideas all on their own, imagine what would happen to these alternative building ideas if the world took up the cause.......a break through would eventually be found and whatever glitches there are that some people use as proof to dismiss and discredit alternative building would be resolved. Why throw the baby out with the bath water.


Almost all of these alternative construction types have been around for hundreds and at least 50 years. If they were viable then they would be more main stream. What ever happened to MEN Eco village. Its gone. The automobile became mainstream becasue it worked. Just like the air plane.
As far as laziness. Any good marketer can tell you how that fits in. People want easy. Promise them anything easier and they will bite. For all its good points. Computers are the biggest swindle in history. how many million of hours are spent each year trying to keep them going. We think we get something free like Firefox, IE9. Any programmer will tell you they don't even look to fix the mistakes. They just keep writing around them. And what sells. Bells and Whistles not good solid programming. 

And just to get on your case a little . you said you knew that there were storm windows but you never seen them work. Yet you formed and opinion on something that wasn't even properly used


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## City Bound

well, in all fareness storm windows were not always part of single pane windows. original windows were just single pane glass with shutters or just glass with no shutters, so I based my opinion on the basic idea of single pane windows in there original form and in the form most people used them for over 100 years. I dont know the history of the storm windows and when they came into use but they were a later developement. I lived with single pane without storm windows and I know for a fact that they were cold, so I would guess that most homes in the past with single pane were cold also.

It took many, many people, and a lot of effort to get the car to be a working idea. there were a lot of people who thought cars would never catch on. Flight, well people tried that and failed. it was only when the Wright brothers figured out how to do it that it became an invention, before that it was crack pot dream. That is my point, the dream is very important. maybe I am reading too much into the real or imagined tone of your's and tiaga's comments but, (and I say this in a friendly way because I consider everyone on this site a friend) it sounds like you guys want to kill the dream just because it has some wrinkles that need to be ironed out.


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## katy

City Bound, I don't know the timeline of the storm window either, but I do know that the windows I referenced working on had aluminum self-storing screens and storm windows, that was in the late 70's prox. I do remember the hooks that you mention, but that was even earlier. Intuitively some things come to me and I've known for years that window glass is no longer as thick as it once was, recently confirmed by people in the industry, hence they are not all that warm and I see it as a cost cutting measure. You know what's really funny is that in the same home with my old double hung windows that were so great, was also a boiler furnace-- i.e. steam heat. Thermostat was on 1st floor (a business) for the entire house, cleanest warmest heat of my life......... ah, the funny part, it would get so warm that I had to open windows (just a crack) to keep it nice. The price for all that heat ? $400-500. a month for a 3 story building. 

I read this thread from the beginning and it is sometimes difficult for people to express themselves positively and without slamming anyone else who disagrees with them. In my opinion Tioga and TNHermit are NOT trying to kill a dream, they are attempting to save people from serious and costly mistakes. Frankly I am amazed at the time they spend sharing their knowledge. Good luck to you. and to the Startupman as well.


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## Ross

It's not always easy to get a point across without irritating someone else. Bulletin boards are a little limiting that way in themselves. Thing is everyone should try. Those reading and those typing. If you don't the message is lost. 

Certainly we're lucky to have alot of really knowlegabe people here on HT. Truthfully most people here on HT get along very very well, the best neighbors anyone could ask for.


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## tiogacounty

katy said:


> City Bound, I don't know the timeline of the storm window either, but I do know that the windows I referenced working on had aluminum self-storing screens and storm windows, that was in the late 70's prox. I do remember the hooks that you mention, but that was even earlier. Intuitively some things come to me and I've known for years that window glass is no longer as thick as it once was, recently confirmed by people in the industry, hence they are not all that warm and I see it as a cost cutting measure. You know what's really funny is that in the same home with my old double hung windows that were so great, was also a boiler furnace-- i.e. steam heat. Thermostat was on 1st floor (a business) for the entire house, cleanest warmest heat of my life......... ah, the funny part, it would get so warm that I had to open windows (just a crack) to keep it nice. The price for all that heat ? $400-500. a month for a 3 story building.
> 
> I read this thread from the beginning and it is sometimes difficult for people to express themselves positively and without slamming anyone else who disagrees with them. In my opinion Tioga and TNHermit are NOT trying to kill a dream, they are attempting to save people from serious and costly mistakes. Frankly I am amazed at the time they spend sharing their knowledge. Good luck to you. and to the Startupman as well.


Thanks for the kind words. 
I would assume that storm windows appeared right after the ability to produce large, inexpensive sheet glass became a reality. Real divided light windows, with small individual panes, are a direct result of glass being hand made and extremely expensive hundreds of years ago.

The original storm windows on old farmhouses in this region are simply wooden frames holding large glass panes. The frames are fully milled without a glazing channel, the frame is assembled around the glass, much like a panel door is built. they hang on two upper clips mount to the head of the window frame and they latch at the bottom. Although they obviously contributed greatly to the mid-winter interior comfort of a drafty 1800s farmhouse, everything about them is a PITA. They are installed and removed with two people (one on a ladder). They are tough to prop open on mild winter days. They need a lot of storage space, and they swell tight in the opening, and sometimes it's a fight to remove them in spring. I have worked on late 1800s places here with original single hung windows, the upper sash is fixed in place, and no counterbalances. Each operating window slid in a wooden track with no weatherstripping and was held up ( for 150 years or so) with a stick that sat on the sill. When encountering really basic designs like this I assume that the budget and conditions at the time probably meant that the local mill shop made these things, and was the window and door manufacturer for most places in the area. 

TN is right. A properly built and maintained wood window, with a storm window, will outlast your grandchildren. As for me ever owning one....no. I can appreciate the hard work of others who keep beautiful antique Victorians and Colonials in pristine condition. But I prefer to walk by and admire as the owners spend their weekends with a scraper and paint brush.
I have turned lazy into a highly tuned skill. Why wreck a good thing


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## TNHermit

Tioga is right almost 
Wood windows did and do all the things he says. BUT  (Being a window, door and stair freak) A wood window properly made and fitted won't . the biggest problem is we became acquainted with them 30 coats of paint later. so any built in margin are taken up by paint and the fact that most people just slopped it on. How many wood windows and storms have you seen with runs down the frame. Secondly most don't have the stops anymore so they were just shoved in tight. Sash cords were another problem in that they didn't last 100 years like the rest  better windows had cable or chain. And of course the sash cords couldn't be changed because the access holes were painted shut  So as he said it was mostly a matter of maintenance. And how many preform any maintenance on any thing till all of a sudden there "Water in the house all over" and "the window fell out the hole!"

There are some good windows out there I think. Andersen were my choice but they seem to be going down hill. Pella was the Apple of windows but I hated them and never had good luck with them. And if you pay attention they are going back to more traditional window while using proven materials to promote longevity.

Yes storms had to be taken off and stored in the old days. They could be a paint to clean. But in this day of Air conditioning they can be left on year round.


A good house in the old days was nearly a piece of furniture that required care. Fortunately and unfortunately like antique furniture last a long time but they end up looking like crap with out care.
So we have our choice from one end to the other. Depending on what you want. A house that can last centuries with care. Built to do a job or a piece of plastic setting on a slab that deteriorates (unless you are good with Bondo and plastic repair) at the same speed as the human body and off gasses you to death (So they say.) Builit to a price and faulty mortage instuments that make the banks rich.
And with today's preferences for ME ME ME(old folks exempted  ) the last is generally the choice not realizing the true cost.

And if your young and ambitious which would you rather restore  wood is easily worked with. Plastic not so much


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## City Bound

hermit, I prefere wood also. Many of these modern double pane windows are solid wood and they have a plastic sheath over the outside of the frame to protect it from the weather, so you get the best of both worlds, the refinishing ability of wood on the inside and the super low upkeep of the plastic covered outside. You can have the double paned resealed and you can have them repumped with argon gas.

You make a good argument for single pane and I will consider it for the future. One thing i like about single pane is that I can make them and maybe save some money when i do eventually make my little hut.


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## Ross

The worst part of any window is usually the instalation. There's a house we work on that has it's (near) original wood windows. They suit the construction (100+ year old pine log cabin) and the owners won't replace them. Yes they leak a little, they're certainly not energy star rated. Still by re-working the frame and flashing the outside and of course a lot of foaming and caulking, they are at least air tight. Very little else in the house is, but they'll eventually need an HRV if they keep going. Its tough to nail down an amount saved because we rarely get two winters the same, but the owners were more comfortable and that's why they spend their money anyhow.


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## TNHermit

One thing I can tell you from experience. . I will take a house without insulation and draft free over a super insulated place that is drafty. And yes it can be done DAMHIKT . draft proofing a house will pay far and above what insulating will do.
The place I'm talking about had 8 inches in the wall and two feet in the ceilings. Coldest place I have ever been in. But that was 40 some years ago


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## ErinP

> It's not always easy to get a point across without irritating someone else. Bulletin boards are a little limiting that way in themselves. Thing is everyone should try. Those reading and those typing. If you don't the message is lost.


Very true, Ross. But generally speaking, if someone is being condescending, derogatory and calling others names, the point is coming across _exactly_ like they want it to. :stars:



TNHermit said:


> Secondly if I have to call an architect about a basic thing like lateral bracing then that si a big warning sign right there.


Not AN architect. THE architect. 
If you have questions about a perceived variance in a particular design, logic would seem to dictate that you should ask the person who designed (and sells) it, right? 
I take it that means you ARE basing your opinion on a handful of snapshots? 



> See how many of those fine straw bale , log,sod and such are standing from yesteryear. they don't last without tons of upkeep.


You wanna bet? 
I happen to know people who live in both the soddies and bale houses that their _great-grandparents_ built. 
I assure you, there is not a "ton of upkeep" involved. They're actually pretty low maintenance. Probably why they're a century old and better...



> there is off gassing in everything.


Absolutely true. 
And that is exactly why people would be wise to limit their exposure to the worst offenders. Plain old lumber off gasses no noxious vapors. OSB, plywood, drywall, carpet, vinyl, etc. on the other hand off-gas known carcinogens. Call me a tree-hugger, but I don't want any more toxic substances in my home than needs be... And rather than trying to control that with _plastic sheeting_, I think it's probably smarter to just avoid the stuff in the first place.

There is nothing inherently _wrong_ with standard stud-frame construction. To be sure, it's the cheapest method out there. And definitely it's the one that most people have experience with (which means lining up help is easier because you don't have to explain what you're doing). 
But really, those two reasons are the _only_ reasons it's still the most common method. Not because it's somehow superior. :shrug: 

And since you brought up the car analogy, consider the Edsel.  Years ahead of its time. By far, superior to every other car in its era. 
But it didn't go anywhere...


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## TNHermit

"The Architect""an Architect" Word games
Love to see pictures of these 100 year old houses inside and out


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## MushCreek

Houses today are being built VERY tightly- it's code in many areas. IRC 2009 actually requires a test to see how well sealed the house is. Because of this, they have ventilation systems known as HRV's and ERV's, that admit outside air, but take the heat from inside to pre-warm the air coming in. These are becoming code in many areas as well. And while I'm ranting about codes- windows have to have the rating stickers on them to pass inspection. So home made windows would never fly, unless you made them with double-pane inserts with the necessary stickers on them. I'm not saying I endorse these new codes- far from it, but for our friends in areas that require building to code, and the subsequent inspections, better do your homework.

BTW- I think the word you want is 'caulk'.


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## ErinP

> "The Architect""an Architect" Word games


Not really. If you're wondering about someone's specific design, you ask _them_. 
I would think this would be a given...? 

So far as soddies and bale houses--
Actually, in each case, you really can't tell that they're soddies or bale houses until you notice the really deep window wells. 

I never took photos. Never occurred to me to do so, I guess... :shrug: 

But I know the bale houses are online because I tripped over them when investigating modern strawbale houses. 
It was kind of neat. "Hey! I know that house!" lol
One was the cook house at Fawn Lake (now owned by Turner) and the other was a neighbor's place. Photos are available of both online, but I'm only going to give out Fawn Lake because I'm not particularly concerned about Turner's privacy. lol
Just Google "Fawn Lake bale house" and you'll find pics. 

And then of course there's Pilgrim Holiness church, also made of bales, in Ashby, NE. 

Sodhouses, on the other hand, were far more common than bale houses. Those are actually found all over the state, still occupied. 
I've known several people over the years who are living in the soddie that their grand/great-grandparents built. 
They've always been plastered, inside and out to finish the walls, and usually it's been added on to. But as soon as they say, "Yeah, that part's the old soddie" it's obvious that that's exactly what it is. 
History as your living room.


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## Ross

> Very true, Ross. But generally speaking, if someone is being condescending, derogatory and calling others names, the point is coming across _exactly_ like they want it to. :stars:


 Lots of that going on isn't there. I'm just suggesting people could try a little harder to show some common respect. A useful post would get more attention and unfamiliar ideas might at least generate some useful conversation if nothing else, if everyone took a little more care in their writing. Does take some effort at times.


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## City Bound

thanks mush, it is caulk, you are right. people around here pronounce it like "Cork" so much it just stuck in my mind that way. People around here still call cement blocks cinder blocks, and usually call sheet rock, dry wall, and joint compound is refered to as plaster. We also usually call water "warter" or "warder".


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## ErinP

Ross said:


> Lots of that going on isn't there. I'm just suggesting people could try a little harder to show some common respect. A useful post would get more attention and unfamiliar ideas might at least generate some useful conversation if nothing else, if everyone took a little more care in their writing. Does take some effort at times.


I completely agree. 
Disagreeing with people is great. That's how everyone learns, actually. 

But forever telling any number of people what fools they are simply because they dare to disagree with one's "expertise"...
Well, that just makes a body come across like a know-it-all horse's behind. 

And after a few months of watching this type of thing, I just might feel compelled to point that out to them.


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## tiogacounty

ErinP said:


> I completely agree.
> Disagreeing with people is great. That's how everyone learns, actually.
> 
> But forever telling any number of people what fools they are simply because they dare to disagree with one's "expertise"...
> Well, that just makes a body come across like a know-it-all horse's behind.
> 
> And after a few months of watching this type of thing, I just might feel compelled to point that out to them.


 Where would I be without you, and your ability to point out my flaws? You are awesome. 

BTW, "forever telling ANY NUMBER of people what fools they are" is pure bovine discharge. You have presented a lot of your misguided opinions as facts, and cannot deal with those that challenge your shaky knowledge base. It's just that simple. You have a big issue with my delivery, but, more important, you make your attitude quite clear in your response to ANYBODY that attempts to point out that your claims are questionable.


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