# I did a very difficult thing today



## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Today I went to a psychiatric facility to be evaluated because the panic attacks I've been having are getting more frequent.

After evaluation the doctor and therapist recommended I attend sessions five days a week, four hours a day for six weeks or be hospitalized. Obviously, I am on the verge of a nervous breakdown!

I don't know what to do. I know I don't want to drive the 25 miles one way every day to spend four hours with strangers. The first words out of hubby's mouth was "how much will this cost"..."is this a ligitimate facility"...and "you can't leave the house for one day, how are you going to do it five days a week". 

They did say I could start with three days a week, but the amount of weeks I would have to go would be more than six. 

SIGH...it just seems like another thing to be stressed about and I wish I hadn't gone.


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

I just broke my "I do not want to be the last name showing on the main board" so I'll reply. (Yes, I am really at lost ends right now so up at odd times because I'm not settled--there, I've admitted my secret.)

You have made a step; you know you need help or you wouldn't have asked for it. You may not be better when this journey is finished but you won't know unless you try. Your son has issues; you urge him to get help because you know he needs it. 

Don't deny yourself.. 

You've made a brave step towards ending your panic attacks by reaching out. Be strong and pursue this until you know it won't help your situation or it does. Miles are miles and hours are hours. Take good care of you and be kind to yourself.


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

If your panic attacks were bad enough that you went to the doctor in the first place, you need to follow thru with treatment. Maybe you could start with 5 days a week and later drop back to 3 days if you are doing well. I'm sure the whole thing is overwhelming, but think about how wonderful it will be when you are free of the panic attacks and have your life back. Ask your dh if he would please be supportive and not increase your stress with his negative comments.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I assume you have checked this place out completely, that does really seem like a lot to ask of anyone. Have you talked to your primary care doctor about the panic attacks?
I do think you should do something about the attacks before your life is really limited.


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## Country Lady (Oct 2, 2003)

Just thinking if it were me, I think the trips would add stress on me and possibly I'd get more good from just being hospitalized. You'd be able to get more rest and the family members who's added stress to your life wouldn't be able to depend on you as much and that might help them to think for themselves. I'm just thinking.... Whatever you decide, I think it's good you're reaching out for some help and I hope it all works out well for you.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Yes, I've talked to my primary care doctor about the panic attacks and all he did was give me a prescription for Xanax. I asked him to refer me to a therapist a year ago and he never did.

I've researched this place as best I could and it seems ligit. They were all very nice today and it's a nice facility. They're intensive daily treatment is considered outpatient treatment and is a substitute for inpatient treatment. 

Country Lady, I actually told them today that it had crossed my mind more than once to just go admit myself to a mental hospital just so I could get some peace.

The therapist who evaluated me said my life was a house of cards and I am the only one holding it in place...and that I've been doing that my whole life. It's true...I've always tiptoed my way through life trying to hold everything and everyone together. In the last week it's all fallen apart.


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## lathermaker (May 7, 2010)

Check yourself into the Hospital and get the help you need. I have a strong suspicion the cause of your panic attacks lives in your home. The first words that came out of your DH's mouth is "how much is this going to cost" is a BIG RED FLAG! Talk about an unsupportive SOB. Please get yourself out of there.


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

There are very few mental health beds available so the intensive outpatient care sounds pretty typical to me.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Maybe try the outpatient, and if the travel is too hard go to inpatient? You deserve peace, and freedom from panic attacts, do the best thing for you. We will be hear to listen or encourage as well as pray for you.


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## SageLady (Jun 10, 2008)

lathermaker said:


> Check yourself into the Hospital and get the help you need. I have a strong suspicion the cause of your panic attacks lives in your home. The first words that came out of your DH's mouth is "how much is this going to cost" is a BIG RED FLAG! Talk about an unsupportive SOB. Please get yourself out of there.


 
Gotta disagree with this! Ravenlost's DH has been there for her kids, paying bills for her son and his family with his own income. That's pretty darn nice, considering they are his stepkids.
He also takes in stray dogs and cats, giving them a great home, and Ravenlost lives in a beautiful house with land, doesn't have to work outside the home. He provides well for her... I don't think he's an unsupportive SOB. I imagine he's overwhelmed himself at this point.

Ravenlost, I hope you get the help you need... Maybe call your primary care doctor again to get advice about what you need to do. Most doctors do start with Xanax, etc. but since that hasn't helped you - you need to let your doctor know that. And also finding mental health help that takes your medical insurance would be priority too. I'm sure your DH is worried about the HUGE expense this could be and doesn't want to be bankrupted at his age... That is a reasonable concern in my opinion.


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## CathyGo (Apr 26, 2013)

Therapy for four hours a day? I'm curious what that would consist of that would take 4 hours. My focus would be gone and my frustration levels rapidly rising after less than half that time.


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## beaglebiz (Aug 5, 2008)

RL, I dont have any advice...I know you have so much on your plate...so much that I wonder how you do it all. I will keep you and your family in my prayers. (sending love and e-hugs)


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## Jan in CO (May 10, 2002)

RL, I know what a difficult step this was for you! I also know from personal experience how difficult, draining and exhausting it is to deal with family members who are bi-polar, etc. I often wondered if I was the only normal person in my entire family, and waited for the other shoe to drop and join the rest of them! My gd's psychiatrist also talked to me when he could see I was at the end of my rope, and I'm thankful he did. 

You have taken the first steps to get your life back on track, now follow through. Just check first with your insurance to see if there is coverage and if you need a referral from your PCP. I'm sure he'll give it to you now if he knows you are going to go for care. That will help your dh's stress by knowing some of the cost is going to be covered. If it isn't, go anyway. They take payments! If you think the daily travel is too much, just admit yourself and go that way. Your hubby will be fine, just explain to him that you need this, not only for yourself, but for you and him as a couple. Everyone needs some mental health help at different times of our lives. You are smart enough to get it! Good luck, I send you extra hugs and encouragment!


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## mamita (May 19, 2008)

I would hope people don't start the big bashing of your husband. it's a legit concern (unless you have great wealth) to consider cost. I feel so bad for your situation. I will say this (and most likely be wildly unpopular) that do consider the facility is a business, so they are there to make money. I can't say you don't need help, but I am suspect of needing what he suggested. prayers you find a solution that works best for you.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

SageLady said:


> Gotta disagree with this! Ravenlost's DH has been there for her kids, paying bills for her son and his family with his own income. That's pretty darn nice, considering they are his stepkids.
> He also takes in stray dogs and cats, giving them a great home, and Ravenlost lives in a beautiful house with land, doesn't have to work outside the home. He provides well for her... I don't think he's an unsupportive SOB. I imagine he's overwhelmed himself at this point.
> 
> Ravenlost, I hope you get the help you need... Maybe call your primary care doctor again to get advice about what you need to do. Most doctors do start with Xanax, etc. but since that hasn't helped you - you need to let your doctor know that. And also finding mental health help that takes your medical insurance would be priority too. I'm sure your DH is worried about the HUGE expense this could be and doesn't want to be bankrupted at his age... That is a reasonable concern in my opinion.


And I have to disagree with this. Would it still be acceptable for a spouse to ask how much it will cost to treat heart disease? Or cancer? Mental health is just as important. 

So, because she doesn't have to work outside the home it makes her less of a human being than her spouse that has an outside job? Her needs should be less? Of course a spouse should care for stepchildren- he married their mother and knew they were a "package deal." I've never understood this mindset. 

Ravenslost- your mental health is as important as your physical. The commute is going to cause issues for you and I think you should have treatment as an inpatient. Is the treatment (inpatient or out) covered under your insurance?

Good luck and I hope you get the help you need.


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## Miss Lynne 62 (Dec 25, 2011)

I suffered from panic attacks years ago, all I can say is I know what you are going through. I bought a system called attacking anxiety by Lucinda Bassett. Get it , it helped me get through it. It's pricey, but it works. you may be able to google her and find out more about it. Prayers for a quick resolve to your anxiety problem.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Our insurance will cover 85 percent of the cost and they were very kind in explaining that they do not harrass you over the outstanding bill...that as long as you pay a few dollars a month that's good with them...the lady said I could take 30 years to pay my part if that's what I need to do.

It is just second nature for hubby to consider money first. He's a tightwad, always has been...takes after his mom. This is a sore point between us. I don't understand his stinginess and he doesn't understand how I could just give away the shirt off my back. 

He doesn't mean to hurt me, I don't think, it's just that he is so set in believing that what he thinks is best, is best. I feel like I can't communicate with him at all...he doesn't hear what I' saying. He twists everything to what he wants it to be and that drives me nuts...well, it did until I've just given up. 

And that is how I have arrived at this anixiety issue...I've just given up on everything to the point that I no longer exist. I just let him tell me what to do, how to do it and how to feel about it. How I actually feel is bottled up inside me because it is just to diffcult to argue with him or try to make him see my point of view.

Part of this therapy program is family sessions. I think we need that. He currently doesn't see why HE needs to go since I'm the crazy one. The therapist who evaluated me yesterday gave me his card and told me to have hubby call him so he could explain the program and why I need it. Hubby doesn't see why he should call. He hasn't even bothered to read the info in the folder they sent home with me. I think he just needs time to come to terms with the fact that I need serious help. He would be happiest if they just gave me pills and sent me on my way.

Hopefully he will read the info today and we can talk about it. If he starts doing like he usually does...telling me what I'm going to do, how I'm going to feel about it, etc. then I will do what I usually do...just shut down and say okay.

Sigh...I may end up hospitalized if he doesn't come around. Right now I am thinking the three day a week program is about all I can handle.


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

It took a lot of courage to do what you did to seek help. Good for you!

One caution, and I don't want to discourage you from getting help from this facility, but if it is a stand-alone mental health hospital, the intake personnell are strongly encouraged to admit people to their programs. I worked for one and I know the pressure that is placed on the intake folks to get new patients. 

As a former mental health therapist AND a former patient (depression), I'd recommend you go see a psychiatrist for an evaluation. You might indeed need the kind of intensive program the hospital recommended, but getting a second opinion at this time would seem wise. Xanax is an old-time medication that can be effective for mild anxiety attacks, but there are much better ones out there that your GP might not be familiar with. It could be that the combination of medication therapy and outpatient counselling will help you just as much as the intensive five day a week programs.

All this being said, if after a second opinion, I needed intensive help, I'd go with the hospitalization first and then the outpatient for on-going support. Hospitalization would give you a complete break from your current environment and much more intensive around the clock assistance. It would also give your family an opportunity to re-group and learn to manage without you for a week or so. I do believe that would be more beneficial than stretching intensive therapy out for 6+ weeks.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I'm so sorry, truly. Based on what you've said _you_ have to be the one to take charge of your health. Do the inpatient program, completely taking yourself out of the situation will help and you'll be able to think more clearly without the stress of day to day life. It may help your husband to understand how you feel and how he's contributing to the problem as well. 

I have even less sympathy for him now that I know that most of the cost is covered and how the facility is willing to work with you. :grit: 

Please think of only yourself as difficult as that is for many women it's what you need right now.


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## hmsteader71 (Mar 16, 2006)

My mother suffered from depression her whole life, and was on Xanax most of her life. I know what it is like for some to go through this and I am so sorry you are suffering with this. I think that the amount of weight that is on your shoulders is enough to cause a nervous breakdown. And do not be ashamed to admit that. I think you are brave and courageous to take the step to go and try to get help. 
My client goes to outpatient therapy once a week and it has done wonders in helping her. My sister suffered from anxiety attacks and never really did go for therapy, they just medicated her. 
I truly hope you get the help you need.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

I concur with Belfrybat's post and also worked in the mental health field for years. 

So glad to read that family therapy is a part of the therapy program. It appears that he also needs to be a part of this. 

Was your evaluation with a psychiatrist? Psychologist?

Hugs..


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

You will do just fine! 

I know you and I know your DH and you have a good relationship. Every marriage hits bumps in the road ans few sessions smooth them!


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## wildwanderer (Mar 2, 2004)

Ravenlost - no advice just lots of hugs and good vibes being sent your way. I hope you do what is right for you, you can't take care of others I you don't take care of yourself. And I think your little granddaughter is going to need you to be a strong role model/port in the storm. Take care- Thea


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Belfrybat said:


> It took a lot of courage to do what you did to seek help. Good for you!
> 
> One caution, and I don't want to discourage you from getting help from this facility, but if it is a stand-alone mental health hospital, the intake personnell are strongly encouraged to admit people to their programs. I worked for one and I know the pressure that is placed on the intake folks to get new patients.
> 
> ...





Wolf mom said:


> I concur with Belfrybat's post and also worked in the mental health field for years.
> 
> So glad to read that family therapy is a part of the therapy program. It appears that he also needs to be a part of this.
> 
> ...


Maybe but even a free standing (owned rather than State run or affiliated with a hospital) has to justify treatment or the insurance and/or Medicare/Medicaid won't pay. 

It's important to check to see if the facility is accredited with The Joint Commission or other agency.


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

I wonder if you'd be having these panic attacks if you knew someone was there to care for you. The fact that hubby is not willing to put himself in your place when you need him the most must make you feel quite alone at times. And you already feel responsible for so much. On top of the physical issues you've mentioned. As with most of us, as we grow older, we need more and more help, so this is not going to get better without some serious changes. Someone should be taking care of YOU and working to reduce YOUR stress! If you had that kind of reassurance in life - would your anxiety be near as high?

If hubby refuses to try to give you what you tell him you need... therapy may help you deal with it... and give you tools to reach him so that he gets you. I'm pretty confident you'll get the support you need whichever direction you choose. Whatever option you decide, I'm glad you're reaching out for what you need.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Wildwanderer...she is my main reason for doing this. I have to be strong for her because I do feel her future life with her parents could very well be short lived. My daughter wants me to go get her now.

I was diagnose with clinical depression 30 years ago and have struggled with it my whole life. I've been on Zoloft for 10 plus years now, but the anxiety/panic attacks are getting worse as the stress in my life gets worse. I need help coping or I am sure I will have a complete nervous breakdown. I'm so tired from trying to hold everything together! I'm tired of everyone (hubby) telling me I'm the strong one in the family...the one who keeps everyone okay...the "glue" that holds the family together!

I NEED SOME GLUE TO HOLD ME TOGETHER!!!

Here's a link to the place I went to yesterday. Tell me what you think: http://www.psycamore.com/


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost - wishing you well.

Get the help you need, for you. But it may involve letting others rely on themself more and you less.

I just wish you well.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

My experience with daily treatment for debilitating stress and inability to cope with my life was back in 1989. I started with my family doctor and told him I wanted a tranquilizer for the short term and a referral to a psychiatrist. He agreed. The psychiatrist put me into a day treatment program, five days a week. It probably saved my life. In addition to group therapy, they taught us stress management, cognitive thinking and other skills. The sessions were broken up a bit, which helped with attention span and there were different therapists for the different skills, which helped too.

Some of the details are a bit faded after all this time, but I heartily recommend you give it a try, Ravenlost. It took me only a few days to realize that they could help me, although I was in the program a lot longer than that.


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## lenii (Dec 31, 2005)

a religious nut case, or a Dr, but I find that Letting Go, Letting God, is the answer. So many of your posts are about trying to help your son. I know he has problems, and there is a child involved, but I think this is driving you to these panic attacks. You can't control their lives or fix them. Has it helped so far? It is more than one can bear up to. Don't let it ruin your health. Only God controls these things, it is not up to us. And it is in his time, not ours.

I have kids with problems, some of them huge, that I could really stress out about, but I have chosen to for once in my life, put myself first and enjoy what is left of it. Let God take care of the rest.

If I were in your shoes, I would go back to Dr, and ask for stronger meds, as the one you are taking is not helping. Talk to your Pastor.If you don't get anything out of your church or don't go, maybe it is time to change churches, or start going..... Some outpatient trips would be helpful,too. But that many????

Good Luck..


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## mrskamel (Jan 21, 2013)

BIG HUGS to you! I hope what ever you decide the end result will bring you more peace. You must take care of yourself before you can care for anyone else. Good luck!


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## soulsurvivor (Jul 4, 2004)

I'll vote with my encouragement to find assistance for the panic attacks. I would begin with the physical health first. Rule out the physical reasons for feeling these attacks. That could be side effects of prescription drugs, actual physical issues with internal health, and uncontrolled pain levels. 

Keep a daily journal. Note everything that leads up to the panic attack. This is important information in sharing with medical providers. 

For myself, I discovered that yes, I have congestive heart failure, but that's not what is the total reason for the panic attacks. I can stop a panic attack by monitoring my diet and taking medication of Nexium and antibiotics. 

Let me ask you this - at some point in the panic attack are you feeling swollen, full of gas, burning stomach, fear of not being able to breathe? Take a couple of gas pills and see if it helps. If it does, then you just may need to change your appointment to see a gastro doc.


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I live with chronic physical pain and would rather be in physical pain than dealing with a panic attack. I've had a quite a few caused by medication ... prednisone, allergy meds, and xanax withdrawal being the three major culprits!

I have sleep issues, and at one point, the doctor put me on xanax to try to help me sleep. As it wore off in the morning, I would have horrible anxiety and paranoia. Apparently, xanax withdrawal ... causes panic attacks. And you go into withdrawal every time it starts to wear off, as it's very physically addicting. It has a very short half life. It's a vicious, vicious cycle. 

(Once I realized what was wrong, I quit it cold turkey, and got quite the lecture from my doc. Apparently it can cause seizures if you stop it cold turkey.)

I'm so sorry you're dealing with this ... it's miserable, and so many people don't understand how horrible anxiety and panic attacks can be. 

Oh, and if you haven't had blood work and a full physical, I would recommend you do so. Some fixable physical problems can cause anxiety attacks.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> And I have to disagree with this. *Would it still be acceptable for a spouse to ask how much it will cost to treat heart disease? Or cancer?* Mental health is just as important.
> 
> So, because she doesn't have to work outside the home it makes her less of a human being than her spouse that has an outside job? Her needs should be less? Of course a spouse should care for stepchildren- he married their mother and knew they were a "package deal." I've never understood this mindset.
> 
> ...


Lemme see if I got this right... it is an outrage if a spouse (the responsible party who gets to pay the bills) inquires as to the cost of these treatments, but its perfectly fine for an unrelated party, (whom it will not cost a dime) to raise the very same questions? 

I also inquire about the cost of my own medical treatments prior to giving the go ahead to the docs. And yes, I have had rather some rather expensive treatments for such things as heart problems and cancer myself. Sorting out the financial responsibilities involved before jumping into things is just the responsible thing to do. I would hope that if I were incapacitated to the point of not being able to make my own decisions, that my Yvonne would not "sign away the farm" without checking things out a bit before making any decisions. I do hope the OP gets whatever help she needs to get her life in order, but I am not certain that getting rid of a responsible husband is going to be required as part of the treatment.


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> But it may involve letting others rely on themself more and you less.


I hope you do go the hospitalization route. You need to stop being there for those who aren't being there for you. And nothing is as effective as totally removing yourself temporarily so others have to stand on their own two feet and STOP SUCKING YOU DRY. They need to take your issues seriously, and take care of their mom and wife when you are discharged.

YOU DESERVE APPRECIATION! YOU DESERVE CARE! YOU DESERVE TO BE HEARD!

Thought this should be shouted. Not sure you're hearing it in the real world. I hope you are, from someone. Other than the animals, of course.


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## RebelDigger (Aug 5, 2010)

Raven, I am sorry you are going through this. Back in the day, I was there where you are. My family was driving me to the point of a nervous breakdown. My solution was to back off and refuse to get sucked into their drama anymore. It may appear selfish to some (got that from them from time to time) but, it was really just self preservation. I just made up my mind that they were adults and they were going to have to handle their own problems as adults and told them so. I also told them why I was doing this, that they were literally about to drive me crazy and I refused to take it anymore. I have a DH who is very not supportive. I never really, truly feel like he gets me and he is a bad listener. He can't help it, it is how he was reared. I talk to God a LOT. He does get me and I can talk to Him any time I want. Do what you have to do to throw yourself a life preserver and don't listen to the naysayers. This is about your own personal survival and the only person who knows what you need is you.

As far as meds and doctors go, I cannot address those, I don't go to doctors for personal reasons and I don't take prescription drugs but, I will say that any drug that causes seizures if one stops taking it, scares me silly. I do herbal remedies and at that time in my life I simply added St. John's Wort to my regime. However, if you feel you need this therapy, then go, worry about paying for it when you are feeling better. Scarlett had it right, "I'll think about that tomorrow" is often a good coping mechanism.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Ravenlost said:


> Wildwanderer...she is my main reason for doing this. I have to be strong for her because I do feel her future life with her parents could very well be short lived. My daughter wants me to go get her now.
> 
> I was diagnose with clinical depression 30 years ago and have struggled with it my whole life. I've been on Zoloft for 10 plus years now, but the anxiety/panic attacks are getting worse as the stress in my life gets worse. I need help coping or I am sure I will have a complete nervous breakdown. I'm so tired from trying to hold everything together! I'm tired of everyone (hubby) telling me I'm the strong one in the family...the one who keeps everyone okay...the "glue" that holds the family together!
> 
> ...


I do not see where that place has inpatient care. If your reporting about yourself is accurate, you need a break before your mind forces one upon you.

*Contrary to the way many people think, constantly being the only glue that holds things together is NOT a good thing.* I could easily list a dozen or more issues involved, and honestly doing a day job of getting help and then coming back to a stress situation after a long commute is not an idea that I would entertain for a minute.

There are family dynamics that will have to change, personal growth that you will need to work on, and reflection on your current prioritizing of values. That is HARD work and you will need a supportive environment.

Ask for a referral to a few places that have in-patient care, check them out and choose the one that fits for you. In your case, being far away may work in your favor.

God speed.


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## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

HUGS! Do what you need to do. Know that we are here praying for you, whatever you decided.


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## NamasteMama (Jul 24, 2009)

Ask your doctors to test your hormone, your thyroid and your adrenals. My sister was having severe anxiety and found out that her hormones were all out of whack and she was allergic to wheat. By taking wheat out of her diet and getting a thyroid pill shes now back to normal.


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## vicki in NW OH (May 10, 2002)

I have no words of wisdom RL, but you are in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Harry Chickpea said:


> I do not see where that place has inpatient care. If your reporting about yourself is accurate, you need a break before your mind forces one upon you.
> 
> *Contrary to the way many people think, constantly being the only glue that holds things together is NOT a good thing.* I could easily list a dozen or more issues involved, and honestly doing a day job of getting help and then coming back to a stress situation after a long commute is not an idea that I would entertain for a minute.
> 
> ...


^^ This.


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## cindy-e (Feb 14, 2008)

Ravenlost said:


> Our insurance will cover 85 percent of the cost and they were very kind in explaining that they do not harrass you over the outstanding bill...that as long as you pay a few dollars a month that's good with them...the lady said I could take 30 years to pay my part if that's what I need to do.
> 
> It is just second nature for hubby to consider money first. He's a tightwad, always has been...takes after his mom. This is a sore point between us. I don't understand his stinginess and he doesn't understand how I could just give away the shirt off my back.
> 
> ...


I have a spouse with an anxiety disorder and I am going to bet that your husband is scared right now... scared that he can't do all the things you do on his own while you are gone, scared that you are not going to get better and he is going to lose you, scared of the unknown path ahead of him. Denial is much easier. Go check into the hospital. Give him time. He'll very likely show up. I am really proud of you for taking care of yourself and going for help! That was courageous. You know that in the long run, your following through with getting that help you need is best for him too. =0)

K. FWIW,
Cindyc.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Lemme see if I got this right... it is an outrage if a spouse (the responsible party who gets to pay the bills) inquires as to the cost of these treatments, but its perfectly fine for an unrelated party, (whom it will not cost a dime) to raise the very same questions?
> 
> I also inquire about the cost of my own medical treatments prior to giving the go ahead to the docs. And yes, I have had rather some rather expensive treatments for such things as heart problems and cancer myself. Sorting out the financial responsibilities involved before jumping into things is just the responsible thing to do. I would hope that if I were incapacitated to the point of not being able to make my own decisions, that my Yvonne would not "sign away the farm" without checking things out a bit before making any decisions. I do hope the OP gets whatever help she needs to get her life in order, but I am not certain that getting rid of a responsible husband is going to be required as part of the treatment.


My loved ones don't come with a "only worth this much" sticker.


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## Jokarva (Jan 17, 2010)

Prayers sent your way RL, good for you for recognizing you need help. Please get a physical checkup as well, hormonal changes (not necessarily menopause) of many kinds can cause anxiety. I hope you find what you need.


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## Suzyq2u (May 17, 2010)

Thinking of you ravenlost. This was a big step! Get the help you need  *hugs*


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

I have no advice, just hugs. I experienced panic/anxiety attacks since my teens, so has my sister. We have literally walked out of stores leaving full carts at the check out line because we knew we were dying. I pray you do whatever it takes to make you feel better, that was no way to live.

For me, I cannot imagine how I would ever make the trips each day. In patient may be the way to go.


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## MaddieLynn (Nov 23, 2011)

Read the book "Boundaries", and follow it up with "Who's Pulling Your Strings?". If you can only do one, definitely go with Boundaries. It literally changed my life.


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## Tirzah (May 19, 2006)

Ravenlost,

If I were there I would give you a huge hug and pray right there with you. But, I am not so I want you to know that you and your family have been in my prayers through your ups and downs, and I am praying that God would totally heal you of this. The only true source of peace is through His son Jesus Christ. And I can speak from experience dealing with depression and suicidal thoughts before coming to know Him. If you ever want to chat, please pm me and I would love to be there for you.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Thank you all for your responses. I've read every one and will reread them more than once I'm sure.

I get regular yearly check-ups (need to schedule this year's) every summer that include complete blood work, etc. My doctor spends a lot of time with me during the check-up talking and asking questions. He's a good doctor, I like him, but I think I'm just so good at making light of my problems that he doesn't realize just how badly I needed him to refer me to a therapist/etc. last year.

Other than seriously low Vit D levels my tests all came back fine. I know low Vit D can cause depression, but I've been on supplements for almost a year. I can't tell it's made much difference, even though my levels are now on the low end of normal.

I am not a religious person...at least not the way most people think of as religion. For me, a walk in the woods is attending church. I don't believe in Christianity or any organized religion, but that doesn't mean I don't believe in "God"...I just don't believe in a man sitting up in heaven granting prayers, etc. I believe Jesus existed, but I believe he was just a very wise human being who tried to teach the people around him to care for one another and I strive to do the same myself. And it's hard!

I do feel very alone most of the time. I always have. I don't "get" people. I don't think people "get" me...especially the men in my life...my hubby, my son, my brother. My Daddy got me better than anyone else in my family and I've felt very lost since he died. 

It just hit me that my Daddy was always the glue that held ME together...he was always there for me, always there to help me and he's not here any more. I've never been as alone as I have since he died. 

I can't believe I'm almost 54 years ol and I'm sitting here crying because I miss my Daddy.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

I hope you will continue to seek treatment and get the help you need, sounds like a week in the Bahamas would do you good without the kids and husband, dogs and cats and other responsibilities.

I learned a long time ago that people will let you be their support, their crutch and their financial "go to" person for as long as you allow it (you being a generic you). I learned that as long as I am available to do everything for everyone at any price, folks are more than willing to let me do those things.

I had to step back, regroup and establish boundaries that I do not allow others to cross. That includes my mother, my kids, their kids and my husband. I am not the "bank of mom for everything" anymore. I have much more peace, the kids are much more responsible and my mom is much less demanding. My husband stands up for me and tells me when he sees people taking advantage of me..including total strangers. 

Please get the help YOU need for your situation. Whatever help that might be, just do it and figure out the payments later. I am sure that you will be ok financially in the long run if you are ok mentally too.

Prayers sent for you to get better soon!


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## BlueRose (Mar 7, 2013)

Having PTSD, now how bad panic attacks can be. Go check yourself into the hospital. Get the help you need. While you are there have them do a complete blood work up. You will learn about what you need and how to cope with everything.

Good Luck. :grouphug:


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## luvrulz (Feb 3, 2005)

I would hope that your hubby would get on board and be part of the treatment you decide to go with.... And your steps were courageous. Many years ago, I went through serious depression and the only thing that got me through was the treatment prescribed - daily group therapy and one on one. 

Do what you decide to do. If the hospital stay would be quicker, I might go that route....but it's entirely up to you.... Do what you need to do to feel better. And to reduce the panic attacks. Praying here in Ky....


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## mamita (May 19, 2008)

I've read all, and I can't help wondering if you are truly on the brink of something bad or mad as heck at your husband. lots of stuff you've had to deal with, and anyone would get down in the dumps. however, you keep going back to feeling 'alone' and just 'doing what he says' in the end if it's an argument. well, girl....get your fight on. you don't like how he acts, speak up. you'd be amazed how that can perk up your spirits not to feel like some door mat. sorry..unpopular girl again here........sounds to me like you're not on some brink of a nervous breakdown. sounds like your panic attacks are repressed anger. speak up for once. get it out and said. this isn't husband bashing. NO.NO.NO. this is me telling you that two people make a couple, and you're feeling repressed to the point of panic attacks. you don't need a hospital. you need to girl up.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

DD came home today upset. Her doctor is running out of ideas. 

Do you know what I told her? I told her to try a different doctor, which is what you have done. Good!

She ALSO was worried about the cost! This is what I said. "You are 20 years old. You are talking about the rest of your life. Is that not worth the equivalent of one car payment? Keep things in perspective"!

Ravenlost, I have mentally ill relatives. Part of family therapy is *NOT* saying that someone is not doing well, but saying "This very often works, your homework is to try this out and tell us how it worked for you next session". Your DH has to be there so he can say how it worked for him, yes? Because while some of it is about you not ALL of it is about you: you do not live in a vacuum. What you do affects your DH and only he can say if the change is positive for him as well. They are not trying to throw your DH under the bus, even by accident, he must show up and speak!


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## mamita (May 19, 2008)

another unpopular opinion.......forgo the hospital...go on vacation. find youself. menopause and mid-life can be scarey for some people. spend the money in Belize on the beach and regroup. stop fretting about the kids, it's been said already, you can't fix them. you can't fix a husband you want something from he can't give. go find what makes you happy for once before it's too late. no group needs to tell you that for big bucks. decide to find Y.O.U. now instead of crumbling. just saying what I think. you can spend a fortune in a hospital, but in the end it's still going to be all there until you stop repressing anger and become your own person.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> Thank you all for your responses. I've read every one and will reread them more than once I'm sure.
> 
> I get regular yearly check-ups (need to schedule this year's) every summer that include complete blood work, etc. My doctor spends a lot of time with me during the check-up talking and asking questions. He's a good doctor, I like him, but I think I'm just so good at making light of my problems that he doesn't realize just how badly I needed him to refer me to a therapist/etc. last year.
> 
> ...


Girl, my dad has been gone for over 40 years and I miss him every day.


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

AngieM2 said:


> Ravenlost - wishing you well.
> 
> Get the help you need, for you. But it may involve letting others rely on themself more and you less.
> 
> I just wish you well.


Sometimes you gotta cut others loose in order to set yourself free. 

Seems like a few relationship sessions are in order. If hubby won't go, then you will know that from the start.

Many know you better than me, and these type of situations so maybe they will say I am off base.

I wish you well. You need to rebuild your foundation. 

I raise my glass to the new Ravenlost!


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I am sorry to hear you having all these problems. My Son dealt with anxiety issues and panic attacks to the point he really thought he was going crazy. We took him to the ER, they gave him a shot and some strong meds and sent him over to the County mental heath department. They had people who helped him through all of his problems. He knew they were there for him and understood all the issues he was going through. He doesn't make a lot of money, they charge on a sliding scale. It cost him $7.00 a treatment and he has a councilor to call or go in to see whenever needed, now. They changed his meds and he is doing so well, now. It was scary for us to see him go through it at the time and I know it was for him too. I hope you find the help you need, soon. You are in my prayers....James


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Just go, it is a start. You can change or tweek the sessions as needed later. Just getting started will ease your mind a lot. You can deal better when you get settled some. AND DH can see it helping....James


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> My loved ones don't come with a "only worth this much" sticker.


Neither do mine, but apparently I do, coz my banker lets me know exactly how much it is if I go to him to borrow funds I need.


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## bettybetty (Jul 13, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Neither do mine, but apparently I do, coz my banker lets me know exactly how much it is if I go to him to borrow funds I need.


I think that is exactly Pixies point- NO ONE should ever have to approach their spouse or partner to 'borrow' money for what may be a lifesaving medical treatment. (or any other reason for that matter)

It should be an unspoken understanding that you would sell everything down to the fungus under your toenails to keep your partner alive, healthy, and with you.

It is hard for people with no firsthand experience to understand, but there are cases in which getting mental health treatment is just as life and death as going to the ER for a heart attack.

because just like a heart attack- without the proper treatment- the patient might not survive.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

bettybetty said:


> I think that is exactly Pixies point- NO ONE should ever have to approach their spouse or partner to 'borrow' money for what may be a lifesaving medical treatment. (or any other reason for that matter)
> because just like a heart attack- without the proper treatment- the patient might not survive.


Ok, a couple of points here.... I did not read the part where hubby said "no treatment for you, you arent worth it", What I read went more like he asked a legitimate question: "How much is this going to cost." That is just basic information that any responsible person might want to know before ordering up any treatments that he will be expected to be responsible for. I find this to be particularly true if there has been no second opinion, and one is only taking the persons word for it's necessity is that of the person who stands to profit from the treatments. 

Yes, with mental health issues there are those cases in which a patient "might not survive".... but is this one of those cases? I certainly have no idea with the limited knowledge I have about mental issues, or the OP's particular case. I would think if there were much danger to the patient or others the docs would have simply locked her down at that time. :shrug:


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## pattycake (May 16, 2010)

Raven, go get the treatment you need. You are going to be fine as you are a strong caring person. You have more tools to work with than many others. Everything is going to be all right.


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## Wildfire_Jewel (Nov 5, 2006)

Some one back a few comments posted that Xanax was an "old" treatment and there are better options - I have Bi-polar disorder with severe panic attacks. My disease does not respond to the drugs that are normally used for Bi-polar rather it responds to anti-depressants and NONE of the newer drugs work! It took until the 9th drug combo to find what works for me and it is old tricyclic anti-depressant and Xanax. NOTHING stopped the panic attacks but Xanax. So just because a drug is old, does not mean it should be dismissed. However, if your attacks and depression are hard to treat, you really need to be under the care of a psychiatrist as they are more aware of what is out there to treat mental health diseases. During my worst times, I went with intensive outpatient therapy and I should have been hospitalized. My drugs could have been adjusted and perhaps we would have hit on the right combo much sooner.
HUGS - I know what the panic feels like, and I know what it feels like to be the only one everyone depends on......It can only go on so long before your body/brain just give out under the stress.
Also, my doc has warned me to be prepared for an increase in symptoms during menopause (I am in peri now at 45) so what others have said about menopause, thyroid and vitamin deficiencies is dead on.


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## Cindy in NY (May 10, 2002)

You can't help anyone until you help yourself!! Sending hugs and prayers your way!!


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Nothing you have related makes me change my opinion from what I wrote earlier. Ultimately, this isn't about your husband, it isn't about money, it isn't even about relationships. It is about YOU learning how to have a life that YOU can live with comfortably. Are you worth it?


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I know that you have enough sense to get the help you feel you need. Some of the advise you have gotten is misguided at best. You have done the hardest thing and now it is time to do what is right for you and not listen to people who don't know you and obviously know little about mental health. It is a shame that they feel compelled to tell you what you should do. You do know more about mental health issues that most of us put together!


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## soulsurvivor (Jul 4, 2004)

I suggested ruling out any physical causes. I need to add to that. Talk with your physicians that are giving you the nerve blocks for your back pain and see if there are side effects associated with those procedures that would promote panic attacks. Are you on any type of medication that has steroids in it? How long has it been since you had an upper and lower GI? 

I wish you the best Ravenlost. You're in my thoughts and heart for finding your answers and soon.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> . . . gets whatever help she needs to get her life in order, but I am not certain that getting rid of a responsible husband is going to be required as part of the treatment.


* * * * * * * * * * 
She "claimed" (after threatening suicide for the 2nd time in 10 years,
and self-commiting herself for a week in our local hospital's pysch ward),
that her out-patient psychologist told her, that if she wanted to survive, 
she would have to leave me and the marriage. This she proceeded to do
and I was never given the opportunity to question this counselor, get couples therapy . . . 
or anything else. It was a done deal from start to finish. But she did say she wanted to stay friends -
then did everything in her power to make sure that was impossible as well.

She even came into my house after we were separated (and in violation of the court order that her own attorney had filed) and stole the exact same gun that she had twice threatened to kill herself with. . . then lied about it to the court.

Eventually, I have the distinct feeling this will not be ending well.

Do you think that I should go to the funeral?:yuck:

Would like to get my gun back if nothing else.


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## Coco (Jun 8, 2007)

rave, if it will help you do it, if you think it will do you no good don't do it. What ever you think will help you just do .


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

My heart breaks for you.
I am so sorry.


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

Oh Raven, I hope you are able to read this post. I am 58 and it has been almost 35 years since my grandfather died. I cry at least once a month...he was the only one who "got me" or thought I was the reason for the universe. Right now I am in tears. 

I can remember when he had only been dead 15 years or so; I was driving down the street and literally thought I was dying and asked how in the world was I going to get "home". Where is home? What is home? Nothing makes sense.

I have incredible children, a really nice life...but he is gone. I am sending you love and hugs. I think you have "hit the nail on the head" in your post about your father. And though it was not your intent, you have helped me today.
Terri


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, a couple of points here.... I did not read the part where hubby said "no treatment for you, you arent worth it", What I read went more like he asked a legitimate question: "How much is this going to cost." That is just basic information that any responsible person might want to know before ordering up any treatments that he will be expected to be responsible for. I find this to be particularly true if there has been no second opinion, and one is only taking the persons word for it's necessity is that of the person who stands to profit from the treatments.
> 
> Yes, with mental health issues there are those cases in which a patient "might not survive".... but is this one of those cases? I certainly have no idea with the limited knowledge I have about mental issues, or the OP's particular case. I would think if there were much danger to the patient or others the docs would have simply locked her down at that time. :shrug:



For God's sake, DH and I discuss all costs of all medical procedures!

Let me say this! From what I've gathered through the years, Ravenlost's DH is a kind and compassionate person- one I'd like to know IRL! While he isn't the biological father of her children, he seems to support her love for them 100%. He isn't perfect, but, from what I've been told, there was only one human who walked this earth that was!

Let's concentrate of giving Ravenlost positive, constant support now.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Ardie/WI said:


> You will do just fine!
> 
> I know you and I know your DH and you have a good relationship. Every marriage hits bumps in the road ans few sessions smooth them!


But Ardie, the description RL gave us of her relationship with her husband and one-sided "communication" does not indicate a good relationship. He won't even participate in the therapy.

Sounds to me HE is the cause of most of the anxiety.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Gosh I'm glad I'm not a man. They seem to be the cause of every problem women have (at least in public forums).


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

My dear there is no better therapy then to let the snit hit the fan and let it rip. People only treat you the way you let them and will pile bs as high as a mountain. 
Find your inner tawanda meada or whomever and tell it like it is. 
I know you lover your pets but when they become never ending chores and vet bills life can be a lot more enjoyable for you and them if a smaller household can be found.
I had sever panic attacks before i took control of the way i allowed myself to be treated made it clear of what i needed,its been 8 yeaes since my last one. Once i leaned i could be in control of what happened to me they went away. I still make exit plans in my head in crowds but im ok. 
Do what you need for you the important people will be there and hubs may love you in ways yall didn't know, a man has to be given clear pictures not cloudy widows.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

I know hubby loves me in his own way and I am not ready to walk away from our marriage. I would rather get mentally stable before I made a decision that drastic. We talked at length last night and have agreed that the best thing for me to do is make my yearly appointment with our family doctor and go in for my annual check up. I am going to discuss with Dr. Brown my panic/anxiety issues at length and insist he refer me to a good psychiatrist. I feel I would be more comfortable and better able to handle one on one counseling right now...the five day a week program with group therapy/etc. just really freaks me out right now...it is overwhelming. So is admitting myself to a hospital.

Tomorrow I am calling and making the appointment.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> I know hubby loves me in his own way and I am not ready to walk away from our marriage. I would rather get mentally stable before I made a decision that drastic. We talked at length last night and have agreed that the best thing for me to do is make my yearly appointment with our family doctor and go in for my annual check up. I am going to discuss with Dr. Brown my panic/anxiety issues at length and insist he refer me to a good psychiatrist. I feel I would be more comfortable and better able to handle one on one counseling right now...the five day a week program with group therapy/etc. just really freaks me out right now...it is overwhelming. So is admitting myself to a hospital.
> 
> Tomorrow I am calling and making the appointment.


Just know that I support you in any decision you make. You're a strong woman even if you don't know it right now.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Ravenlost said:


> I know hubby loves me in his own way and I am not ready to walk away from our marriage. I would rather get mentally stable before I made a decision that drastic. We talked at length last night and have agreed that the best thing for me to do is make my yearly appointment with our family doctor and go in for my annual check up. I am going to discuss with Dr. Brown my panic/anxiety issues at length and insist he refer me to a good psychiatrist. I feel I would be more comfortable and better able to handle one on one counseling right now...the five day a week program with group therapy/etc. just really freaks me out right now...it is overwhelming. So is admitting myself to a hospital.
> 
> Tomorrow I am calling and making the appointment.


I am glad to hear you have found a course of action that you are comfortable with. This approach seems reasonable to me, the other options will still be there if you really need them later.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

copperkid3 said:


> * * * * * * * * * *
> She "claimed" (after threatening suicide for the 2nd time in 10 years,
> and self-commiting herself for a week in our local hospital's pysch ward),
> that her out-patient psychologist told her, that if she wanted to survive,
> ...


I understand where you are coming from with this. My second wife and I went to a marriage counselor once who insisted my wife have me put out of the house that very day before "something horrible" happened to her. The counselor had no idea what was going on, in spite of both our insistence that there was no abuse involved. We were simply looking for some way to salvage our marriage if possible. She (the counselor) had her mind made up that I was a wife beater when she walked into the room, before even hearing what we had to say. I have never had much use for these so called professionals, and that experience didnt add much to their credibility as far as I am concerned. After listening to this counselors rants and raves about the evil men do for about 45 minutes we paid the bill for the session, went down the street, had our last meal together and decided it was time to go our separate ways. Taking a guess, you were probably better off not having "the opportunity" to go to joint counseling with your ex. 

I would also recommend you forget about ever seeing your gun again, they sell new ones everywhere, it will most likely be much cheaper for you just to purchase another one in the long run.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Raven, having a plan is 2/3 of the battle! GOOD for you!


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## Wildfire_Jewel (Nov 5, 2006)

Raven - make sure you tell them it is URGENT that you are seen and don't let them shuffle you off to an appointment that is weeks away. You need to get the panic issues addressed now since they are having such a big affect on your life and enjoyment of things - YOU are important so be persistent!


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## mellba (Oct 15, 2004)

Ravenlost said:


> We talked at length last night and have agreed that the best thing for me to do is make my yearly appointment with our family doctor and go in for my annual check up. I am going to discuss with Dr. Brown my panic/anxiety issues at length and insist he refer me to a good psychiatrist. .


You didn't say how you came to hear of Psycamore, but I think getting a referral from a doctor you trust is wise. Maybe you can find something you'll feel more comfortable with. Your husband's questions about the cost and about whether Psycamore is a legitimate facility sound to me as if he is a person who has learned from experience not to accept things at face value because unfortunately sometimes people are just out to make money. I'm sorry you're going through this and hope you get the help you need.


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

I will say a good therapist is priceless. I had one like that after my MVA and TBI and PTSD. One on one is probably better as it is hard to open up to a stranger much less a group of them. It was a while before my therapist even asked if DH could join the sessions and even then it was on my control. Panic attacks are not good. I would try to get therapy an dif your DH starts carrying on about the price then remind him that health has no price label..


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

I think a good step would be to speak up for yourself with everyone who is depending on you. Speak your true mind, tell them the truth- not what you think they want to hear...


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## Just Little Me (Aug 9, 2007)

Just hugs and love is being sent to you right now. Do what you need to do for you. Ifyouare not comfortable with a program, it will not help you. (((HUGS)))


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Melissa...that's something I need to learn how to do. I'm not good at it, which is why I'm so worn out now.


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## CathyGo (Apr 26, 2013)

Ravenlost said:


> I am going to discuss with Dr. Brown my panic/anxiety issues at length and insist he refer me to a good psychiatrist. I feel I would be more comfortable and better able to handle one on one counseling right now...the five day a week program with group therapy/etc. just really freaks me out right now...it is overwhelming. So is admitting myself to a hospital.
> 
> Tomorrow I am calling and making the appointment.


Glad to hear it Raven! Going from nothing to intensive 5 day a week therapy seemed a bit of a leap to me. Don't be afraid to change psychs a few times to find one you "click" with.


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## BlueRose (Mar 7, 2013)

Raven just wanted you to know that I am thinking about you today. I hope you have a 'good' day and that your appt with your dr is very soon.


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

Raven my dear friend. I know you are learning the same lessons and coping tools that I am learning right now. How to say no, when to support and when not to. When to speak you mind and when to be quiet, how to care for yourself and your needs first. These are hard lessons and a therepist (sorry took my ms meds and now cant spell lol) will really help. I went to my primary and told him my problem and he was more than willing to help. Blessings, sis


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I just read page two where you said you just do what ever he wants to do. My DH is like this. I nod my head, then do what I want to do. Not over every thing, I don't try to control him. He has gotten PO'd when I've done my own thing, but he gets over it. I'm an adult, I don't have to get his permission and he doesn't have to "understand" everything I do. If I just kept saying "yes, dear" because he won't back down, I'd be having panic attacks too.


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## luvrulz (Feb 3, 2005)

Ravenlost, just wondering about you today....what's happening?? Hope you're feeling better......


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

We dealt with a child with mental illness and yes, there have been times I've felt I was the only one holding things together. We've encountered a great deal of stressful situations.

Came the day the panic and the depression and the suicidal nightmares sent me running, at my insistence over my dr's wishes, to a psychiatrist.

Who did a full history, checked all kinds of hormones and bloodtests.

Turned out: poor gerd control, two common medicines not playing together nicely, one rare response to one (messed up prostaglandins), extremely high estrogen surges due to peri, and mostly very low b12 and very very low vit D.

Off the offending meds, back on substitutes that played nicely, and supplement the vitamins. One year remeron to reset brain chemicals. 

No talk therapy needed, just good needed good health.

Start with a very thorough physical and ask about atypical responses to any meds or supplements.

And then think of mental health treatment only once physically healthy.

Amazing how much nicer my dh is when my d and b12 are optimum than when they are low 

edited to add: now I get that annual physical with full blood workup. No psych med for ten years or so, happy as a clam.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

I get a full physical with blood work, etc. every year. Just made my appointment for this Friday. 

I have a rare disorder (systemic mastocytosis which in turn causes mastocytic enterocolitis) so I see a gastrologist yearly. I've had my acid reflux under control for several years now.

I had a hysterectomy at age 38. I'm almost 54. No menopause/estrogen surges for me. 

I was diagnosed with clinical depression when I was 28 and going through a very stressful time in my life (HA...seems like my life has always been stressful and I'm always trying to hold it together by myself).

My adult son is mentally ill. He is BEYOND difficult to deal with and I am the ONLY person left in the family who will deal with him. He's wearing me out...I can't do it any longer.

I have an appointment with my family doctor for my yearly check-up on Friday. I am going to stress to him that I need a referral to a good psychiatrist. I can not continue to have these dibilitating panic attacks and killer stress. I'm at the end of my rope. I'm tired!

luvrulz...thanks for asking. I had my third nerve block this morning. Pretty woozy from pain meds, muscle relaxer and Xanax. I'm about to go nap the rest of the afternoon since hubby decided to take the day off and keep the dogs out of my hair.


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## luvrulz (Feb 3, 2005)

On Friday, when they do you bloodwork, ask them to check your B12's. It's a special test and it might take a tube by itself. I have to have it done because of my gastric bypass and I take a lot of D and B12 and B complex.... Maybe like Nodak said, it's just a medical/medicine kind of adjustment.... Good luck with that nap!!


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

They always do.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Don't take in anymore dogs. They could well be producing some stress. Taking care of THAT many dogs will drive anyone into some type of stress and on top of that, the sheer amount of dog poop to clean up......


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## paradox (Nov 19, 2012)

I was trying to read through this whole thread but there was just so much. So if I repeat something other people said, I am sorry. I have a DD with emotional issues - for a while she could not be out in public. She did a 3 week M-F outpatient thing a few years ago with twice weekly family sessions on top of that. It put us on the road to true help. Before that, primary care and local counselors were not really helping.

For one thing, they are actual psychiatrists with more working knowledge of what drugs work better for what issues. Love our primary care but they don't know everything, sometimes you need a specialist. Secondly - being there for several hours per day for several days in a row helps them to watch your response to the meds that they will undoubtedly change. It is critical for them to see how it is affecting you, rather than trusting your sense of how it is going. When my daughter was swinging wildly out of control she honestly believed that it was all the people around her acting weird and that she was perfectly fine. It takes someone outside the situation observing changes to get an accurate picture of what is working or not. Thirdly, they can offer a plan to keep you on a good path for the future once you are done there. I learned so much about which type of help to seek and when. Like when DD has certain issues, I know it is time for a change in meds, other issues indicate she just needs to talk with a counselor and work through some issues. Now I know the difference.

Yes it is going to be hard and expensive. And I am sure you have spent years putting out money and feeling like you are just spinning your wheels. It is hard to imagine that this extra trouble, travel, stess, and money might actually yield some results. You are not sure you want to do it if it will leave you stuck in the same rut only with less money. But what if you are wrong? What if it is (as it was for my DD) the thing that finally puts all the pieces into place? What if it is not just another rut to fall in but actual solid ground to cruise forward on?

Blessings and courage to you and your family.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

TedH71, I hear you! I don't think we can stop taking them in, but I can certainly find other homes for them. Not sure hubby can though. It is my wish that he would give me some peace and quiet by keeping the dogs outside more. I don't think that will ever happen so I have decided to put up a baby gate in the upstairs hallway and turn the back bedrooms (guest rooms), bath and my sewing room a pet free zone. I think I deserve a little bit of space to myself.


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## SageLady (Jun 10, 2008)

Yes, all those dogs could be very stressful... I know on days that I'm having alot of pain just the 3 little dogs I have here can be overwhelming for me to deal with....

And I have a mentally ill sister that is totally dependent on me these days, so I sure do understand your stress there! She has Bipolar disorder like your son, and she is just totally irrational most of the time, even though she is on meds for it... 

I know you said you had an hysterectomy, Ravenlost, but do you still have your ovaries? If so, you will still go through all the tough changes hormonally that any woman does at your age...that could be causing you anxiety too.

Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. Hang in there. I hope you get the help you need.


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## Fae (Mar 9, 2005)

Ravenlost, I know you are not a "christian" as I consider it but, I am and I hope you don't mind me saying that I will be praying for you because I believe it is the most powerful thing I can do. I have suffered from depression but can't take meds and no one ever accused me of not standing up for myself so I do ok. I don't personally know you but I am praying for you and hope everything works out well for you. My oldest sister is suffering from anxiety attacks and has been for about 4 years. She lost her DH in December to Parkinson's and she is on meds. They don't seem to help much. She is staying with me for a few weeks and being with someone helps her so for now at least she is ok. I hope soon to hear you are much better.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Thank you Fae. No, I do not mind at all if you pray for me and I appreciate your doing so. I have seen what prayer can do and believe that prayer is a positive force that can do miracles...good "vibes" and al that.

My heart goes out to your sister. I'm glad she has a good sister like you to help her through such a difficut time.


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Praying also!

Few thoughts: like someone else said, if you have your ovaries (?) you can still get meno fun. 54 is not too late to experience it. Gerd meds can cause problems--side effects for some folks can include panic or heart attack like symptoms. Proton pump inhibitors can actually trigger depression, and h2 blockers can cause all sorts of emotional problems. Any meds we need and may tolerate quite well may not play nicely as we age.

Also, if you take any supplements containing folate you can get a false negative as to needing b12. May have to go off all vitamins for up to 60 days to get an accurate test. Learned that the hard way.

And atypical responses to meds can really be hard to pin down. Just suggesting doing your homework--usually meds side effects are available on the web and a good pharmacist can track down atypical responses to specific combos of meds.

I think all of us are just encouraging you to check those things out thoroughly. My primary care dr at the time missed the boat entirely and had pronounced me healthy. My turnaround took less than a week once the offending meds were stopped.

Some meds I tolerate well--pain meds especially--trigger monster panic attacks for my ex son in law. He and my son are extremely bi polar and just can't handle pain meds. Unfortunately, ex s-I-l also has extreme arthritis flares. Not fun at all but he does better off pain meds than on them. Go figure.

And then once all those things are kind of looked at under a microscope, by all means consider talk therapy. But go into it prepared to be challenged. For my guys, it meant being challenged to make those peaceful life making changes. Every time they try to say "this drives me nuts but I can't stop doing it because" they get called on it.

Stock answer is: yes, you can. If you want to feel better you will have to totally change your life.

No easy answers but know you can feel better and good luck!


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Thanks. Will discuss all that with my doctor on Friday. Have another appointment tomorrow with my neurosurgeon since my last nerve block was yesterday. It occurs to me that all the steroids and meds that I've had pumped into my system over the last three weeks may have thrown me off emotionally, but the panic attacks and anxiety have been getting worse way before the nerve blocks started. 

I do have one ovary, but went through menopause several years ago. 

Again, I've had panic attacks and clinical depression my entire life. I really feel that the only thing making it so much worse now is stress...extreme stress. Over the past 10 years the tragic events in my life have escalated and I just can't seem to bottle it up and carry on like I've always done before. It's all just become to much.


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## belladulcinea (Jun 21, 2006)

If you feel you need help don't let anything or anyone keep you from getting it. I still have a really wonderful "friend" that I talk to. I also had a very good paid friend for a year before this person that helped me through so many things. There's a lot to be said for finding someone with a new and fresh perspective on things.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

You might want to ask the neurosurgeon if the meds you've been on could have caused deepening your problems. Some of them might have.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Will look into that Molly Mckee. Four Valium and two Percocets over the course of three weeks shouldn't have set me off though...especially since my issues have been building long before I was given these meds.

On the other hand, the steroid injections have certainly not helped. They've made me very short tempered, physically hot (hubby expects to come home today and find that I have died of internal combustion) and agitated.


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Oh my yes steroids did set off the bi polar to begin with in our ex s-I-l, so I suppose it can really add to the stress level for you.

That one ovary may be giving you fits. I cooked up a cyst years after meno and it did hit me with heat, all the meno emotions, etc. Fortunately it resolved itself quickly.

And there may not be any one cause. Your combo of high stress life, plus underlying disease, plus meds may just be too much for your body and brain. It may take tweaking this a bit and that a bit and changing this and that to find that good balance.

And as others may have said, gotta suspect thyroid and those steroids until they can be ruled out.

Some folks do face more challenges, and what works for one doesn't work for another. Do you have available someone to do biofeedback training in case the treatments you need for pain are making things worse? Helps some folks heaps, others not at all. But when it does work, it can let you get off steroids and pain meds, Xanax, etc, and a few months off can really reveal what health things are going on.

For s-I-l it was life changing.


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## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

It sounds to me like you are stressed out from the environment you are living in - stress is a killer - it will get to you in many forms - physical and mental - I don't know if you are a religious person or not - but as someone has already hinted - there is a point in life that you need to recognize that there is a God and you need to trust Him - whatever problem that comes up - don't try to solve it by yourself - ask Him to help you with it and put it under His control - when you get all worked up over something - stop - and hand the whole mess over to Him - then forget about the problem - 

Your husband should be more supportive - you have a problem and he should do all that he can to help you - as others suggested - if you are going for help put yourself into a facility so you can relax and not worry about all the things going on at home - put Jesus first in your life and you'll find that the other pieces will take care of themselves - "come to Me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest"


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

Steroids give me panic attacks like nothing else. I'm normally reasonably even tempered, and a medrol dosepack turns me into a raving, screaming, crying, psycho madwoman. 

Xanax also gives me panic attacks every time it starts to wear off.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I didn't realize the dogs were so stressful. I thought you wanted all those dogs. "Up North" they take dogs from the south and rehome them. You might check that out.

Your son may be fully half of your stress. You love him, you can't handle him, etc. It may be time to find an alternative.

As to your husband, may she who has married the perfect man throw the first stone.


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

Ravenlost said:


> Melissa...that's something I need to learn how to do. I'm not good at it, which is why I'm so worn out now.


I had this issue too and therapy helped me a lot because if I had not learned to cope I would have lost it..the side effect of being one to speak my mind now is the fact that I open up my mouth and watch out! Even my ginormous brothers who have never heard a peep from their much littler sister have been left doing a frog impression!!!


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

I would say my son is about 75 percent of my stress. The past few weeks between him and hubby the stress level has been OFF THE CHARTS. Fortunately, my sister has stepped in and stopped all communication between me and my son. Honestly, I have the best sister in the world. She keeps me up to date, but is intercepting all phone calls and email from my son for the time being...and has told him she will continue to do so until he can treat me with dignity and respect. LOL...I may never hear from him again!

The other 25 percent of my stress is hubby and the dogs. I love these dogs dearly, but would handle them much differently than hubby does. I was not raised with animals in the house (except for my rooster when I was seven and he moved outside once he was grown). Hubby grew up with pets in the house. Now, a dog and a few cats I could keep up with, but 20 dogs and 8 cats in the house is more housework than I can manage on my own and it is very stressful. I feel like a slave and a prisoner in my own home. There's not a one of these dogs (and definitely not any of the cats...they're not as messy as the dogs) I would willingly give up...they are my "kids" here at home, but I sure wouldn't mind if they had their own houses in the fenced in yard to sleep in at night...well, except for my little Max and Aislainn...and my Katie Bug. They are good snugglers and don't knock me off the bed like some of the others do. Honestly, I have actually been forced off the bed (fell off in my sleep) by dogs. If I ask that the dogs be kept out of the bedroom hubby does his whole guilt trip thing...does it if I ask that the dogs spend more time in the yard too. I truly feel like I am the bottom of the totem pole in this house...it belongs to hubby and the dogs. I'm just the maid and that hurts my feelings.

Savings strays and unwanted animals is what I truly feel I was put on this earth to do, but unlike hubby, I don't feel that I was meant to keep them all! I believe there are good people with good homes that we could find for the homeless animals we save. 

Doesn't matter. I'm just babbling.


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

If I remember correctly you have a pretty big house, get your own bedroom! 90% of the problem is probably lack of proper sleep. If you get a good night's rest, most problems are a LOT easier to tackle...


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## SageLady (Jun 10, 2008)

Melissa said:


> If I remember correctly you have a pretty big house, get your own bedroom! 90% of the problem is probably lack of proper sleep. If you get a good night's rest, most problems are a LOT easier to tackle...


 
I so agree with this!! If hubby wants to sleep with the dogs, let him... Have a bedroom just for you, that is your sanctuary, where you can get adequate sleep. That would make such a difference for you.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Oh, HEAVENS yes!

Get your own bedroom and only invite in the dogs you choose. Hubby can join you if he wishes but the big dogs must sleep somewhere else!

The dog that joins us at night weighs just 22 pounds: I cannot imagine being squeezed off of my bed by a big one!


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Two thoughts in addition: the book Boundaries by Townsend, the workbook to go with it, and a 12 step group. 

I'm hearing some bits of codependency creeping in. The idea that hubby wants this and that (like umpteen dogs in the house) and that you can't do a blamed thing about it, can't keep up with the housework, etc.

Yeah, you can do something about it. It won't be easy, won't be fun, but won't be nearly as hard as not doing anything about it is. And there are ways to handle it that are not at all mean and not necessarily confrontational.

Try the books. They can change your life, literally.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

This is why I want to see a therapist nodak3. I want...need...help to be able to stand up for myself. Hubby is the type who insists everything be his way and I'm the type who hates to argue and just gives in and gives up.

I have mentioned making one of the bedrooms my own and he immediately starts the guilt trips and pouting. He doesn't even want me to be up in my sewing room with the door closed when he's home. We are supposed to be together all the time. 

He even hates me going to do my errands and shopping once a week...something I have to do on one of his off days because he doesn't want me to leave the dogs alone during the day (he doesn't trust me to make sure everyone is put up safely before I leave). I think this is why I've started having panic attacks when I leave the house alone...plus he is constantly telling me to hurry and get back before I've even left (although he's eased up on that since the panic attacks have gotten worse...he even tells me to take my time, I've got all the time in the world, no rush...and then he calls me while I'm gone wanting to know where I am and how soon I'll be home).

We have no friends. He doesn't want people to come to the house because they upset the dogs. In the 12 years we've lived in this town the only people who have come to our house were our dear neighbors, one of which recently passed away and the other has Alzheimers. Twice in 12 years he has invited coworkers to come over for a picnic. 

When we first moved here family used to come to spend time with us...his and mine. We always had a big family get together on July 4th and New Year's. Now we have a small family get together on New Year's and he would like to stop that. He hates it. I haven't been to see his family in so many years I can't remember when I last went there. He only goes to see them once a year (Thanksgiving...leaving me home alone to care for the dogs and animals). We agreed that, since we don't trust anyone else to take care of the animals that he would go to his family for Thanksgiving and I would go to mine for Christmas. Then my kids and family come to our house for New Year's (my mom, sister and her kids come to see my kids).

He may not need, or miss, his family but I'm not him. I have always been close to my family and I miss them. I go to Alabama every chance he'll let me to see them. My daughter and I have an agreement that we'll see each other every three months, but hubby has not allowed me to go to Texas so far this year. Of course, that is partially due to my health issues, which is understandable. I talk to family almost every day on the phone. He MIGHT call his sister or parents once every two months or so. I miss my family and miss having them in my home and in my life.

Sorry, I'm rambling again. I think it's the steroids...every time my daughter calls after I've had one of these nerve blocks she says I'm talking a mile a minute...guess when I get on the computer I type a mile a minute!

Yes Melissa, I am sure that poor sleep is a big issue. I haven't the slightest idea how many times I woke up last night because of being uncomfortable/crowded. I will probably take a nap this afternoon, something I've been doing a lot lately. 

I haven't approached hubby about putting up a baby gate to block off the guest bathroom, bedrooms and my sewing room. I'm just going to do it and he can deal with it. If I don't get some space I'm going to smother.


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## lenii (Dec 31, 2005)

OMG...No wonder you are having panic attacks. Who could live like that? Yes, you do need therapy to learn to stand up for yourself.. You don't have any time for yourself!!! You need that. I pray you will get help in expressing yourself and your needs. Your husband is a bully.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

It would appear your husband has some mental issues of his own. He sounds very controlling and co-dependent. From reading all of your posts in this thread I think an in-patient program would benefit you greatly and give you a chance to break out of these relationship ruts that are bringing you down.


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## gotmules (Mar 3, 2011)

Maybe you developed resistance to the Zoloft after so many years. My sister had to switch from Zoloft to Xanax for her depression/OCD. I have had good luck for my panic attacks with Paxil. I don't seem to have many side effects except for yawning, which is an odd side effect, but isn't harmful. It could also be that your husband's controlling behavior is actually helping HIM cope with things, and he needs to know it's okay to let go a little; the world will not explode if he does. Good luck with your treatment, and I pray you will find some peace.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

OMG! No WONDER you are struggling! 

Sweetie, you need to get away but do not expect your husband to understand. During a turbulent period in my life I desperately needed a break, and not even my own good-natured hubby could figure it out: he went on and on about how I should take the teenagers along! Man, teenagers are many wonderful things but they are NEVER restful! I really had to put my foot down, and the wrangling went on for about 3 days, but I did go and see my family without the teens.

It was heavenly. It was just what I needed.

I came home to the same problems that had been wearing me out, but I was rested and capable and I was able to deal with it. All of it. And then the hard stuff was GONE!

If you need to talk to your therapist about how to put your foot down and insist, then that is what you need to do. Quite simply, you need a break! That might not be all that you need, but you absolutely need a break!

Men do not always get it. Your husband, like mine, might not get it. That does not really matter: what does matter is that he needs to accept your absence for a few days, BECAUSE YOU NEED A BREAK!


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

Sounds like someone in your house has a lot of issues and my dear, it isn't you...


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

Your husband's needs should not constantly come at your expense, Ravenlost. Please tell him so. Your needs are important, too - does he not value you enough to support your needs when HE has to sacrifice? Compromise and consideration for your spouse should be minimum requirements in a marriage...


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Oh my gosh yes things have gotten way out of hand.

Some is probably physical, some maybe meds, but definitely codependency is roaring in your posts, ravenlost.

Please take this as one codependent speaking to another, but in patient therapy may be wonderful when you are ready for it, but won't do a blamed thing for you IF you go into it as an "I'll run away and when I come back things will be all better" plan. Not you suggesting that, but some of the replies do sound a bit that way.

If you go, go to get better even if that means dh and home cannot be returned to. You can only change you and your responses, never him and his behaviors.

Right now, my best advice is to go stand in front of a mirror and keep repeating "my response to my husband's thoughts and habits have made my life unmanageable."

Kind of a baby step one. Where you go from there is up to you.

Just think of it as instead of "hi-my name is mary and I'm an alcoholic" you are doing "hi--my name is ravenlost and I am too blamed nice a person and it is making me miserable."


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## BamaNana (Dec 31, 2004)

I don't know where to start, Ravenlost... You are not "going to smother" you are smothering now and have been for quite a while. 

You MUST, for your own sake, stand up for yourself. Even though you love your DH and he loves you, he is abusing you, just the same as if he was hitting and beating on you. When he says you can or can not do or go somewhere, just laugh at him and say, Watch me. And do what it is you want to do. If you want to take hours and hours shopping , do it. If he calls you on your cell while you're gone, don't answer it if you don't want to. If you want to go visit your daughter in Texas, by all means, do it.

Love is not meant to be controlling. He needs to learn that you are your own person. He needs to support you, not hinder you. Everyone needs time to themselves. It's his problem if he can't understand if you want/need your own space. 

If you can't talk with him about all your feelings like you are here with us, write him a letter. Tell him to read it. Tell him that this is how he makes you feel and he must get help, just like you're doing, to save your marriage and your sanity.

Abusive, controlling people have been that way most of their life. They do not realize what they are doing. They just get conditioned to it because they get results from it.

Until you take a stand and force him to see exactly what he's doing to you, he's going to keep on doing it.

Ravenlost, I have never met you, but I love you... It truly hurts me to know you're in pain. 
If you want to get away for a while, You are more than welcome to come stay here with my DH and I and give your brain some relief.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Ok, now that I have followed this thread for a while, and gotten a bit more info as to the situation, here is what I would do if it were me in RL's position. One room of the house would be a designated area for dogs. The rest of the house would be returned to "normal human habitat". If hubby wants to sleep with dogs, thats cool with me, he can bunk with his buds in their room where he can feed them, and take care of them. Once we had that chunk of "stress" resolved I would work on getting son into treatment for his problems, and consider my job done as far as raising him and his spouse and their offspring. I would also STOP trying to save the world and all of its fallen creatures. Then I would take a little time for just me.... yep, I am selfish like that, but I refuse to let my own mental health fall apart because others cant be bothered to take care of themselves. This is just me, and what I would do, your milage may vary.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

For goodness sake, if he pouts, leave him pout! Ignore the pout. 

To be painfully honest, there is something wrong, wrong, wrong with a person who puts animals ahead of his or her spouses well being! That is so twisted that I don't know where to began.

I think, Ravenlost, that you will be okay. You're tough. Just put one foot ahead of the other and, even if it's baby steps, just keep doing it.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost - 
little yellow cabin house with porch, everyone and dogs off limits. 
Wishing you well.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Thanks y'all. I really must apologize for pouring all this out here. I guess it's my only outlet right now. Maybe when I find a therapist I won't be moaning and groaning about stuff here.


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## TRAILRIDER (Apr 16, 2007)

I understand where you are coming from completely. And your hubby has some good questions. 

But it sounds like you already know the answer : )

As far as you can't leave the house for one day....yep, I get it....but if you broke your (ankle, leg, neck, fill in the blank _________) you would have to be gone for some time. And things would have to go on with out you. 
I say do what you need to do, what you think is right. Keep your spirits up and concentrate on getting yourself right. Take good care of yourself.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I think you need to go out, have your hair dyed red and then behave as though it's natural. 

SOMEONE needs to get more in touch with her inner "B word".


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## BamaNana (Dec 31, 2004)

You do not need to apologize one bit! That's what we're all here for, to help one another.
As for a therapist, your hubby needs one more than you do. 

25 years ago I was in a very abusive relationship. 
My sister came down from Connecticut to Florida, packed up my butt and brought me back to CT. I was there 3 months, miserable... left in the middle of the night and drove back to my abuser in Florida. 

BUT, what I didn't realize was, while I was away from him, I grew a spine. I learned I could make my own decisions, that I was important and mattered. It took me one day back with him and I left him FOR GOOD!

I'm not saying you should leave your DH for good..., just that you probably need time to get your head well. Whether you are in the hospital or away at your daughters or a friend's house in the woods,, you need time alone. 
Away from all pressure to "get your head on straight"

Then you will be strong enough to stand your ground and not bow down to his control. 

Hugs!!


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## SageLady (Jun 10, 2008)

Just wanted to verify that the steroids in the nerve blocks made me a little crazy.  I was hyped up, had the worst hot flashes ever, and cried at the drop of a hat. And I am a person that normally rarely cries. My family didn't know what to do with me. LOL I had 2 nerve blocks in 6 weeks time and you've had 3 in a shorter period of time then that - so I know they are affecting you ALOT at this point. Took me about 3 months to return to normal emotionally after I had mine.... so yes, definitely I am sure they are making your anxiety much worse!!

Your DH sounds VERY controlling. I think he and your son are the root cause of your stress, obviously, and you NEED to set boundaries with both of them...which I'm sure you will learn to do in therapy. This will save your life literally....


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## Mid Tn Mama (May 11, 2002)

I would like to weigh in on the meds affecting what is already a tense situation for anyone! Here's my 2 cents, IMHO:

1. You cannot change your son or your Husband

2. You CAN change yourself.

3. What if...you started to live your life they way YOU wanted to

4. What if...You treated yourself to the respect you know you deserve (whether anyone else does)

5. Start respecting yourself by getting enough good quality rest. This might mean fixing up your OWN room in the house with YOUR rules. put pretty quilts on the walls to make it soundproof.

6. Put the dogs in the yard when you need peace during the day.

7. Walk as soon as the sun comes up and before it gets hot--Exercise has great benefits for both anxiety and depression. GIVE YOURSELF 30 minutes of walking a day. Listen to pretty music while you do it. This gives you endorphins.

8. Your husband and son are repeating the same go-nowhere, unhelpful things (about the dogs for the latter)Answer back with your own repetitious mantra. I suggest....

...I need peace
...I love you but I cannot help you right now
...I love you but I must take care of my _ (exercise/health/sanity/healthy eating)
...I love you but I need to do this now.

Learn how to repeat your mantra as many times as they argue. They will get the point and leave you alone very soon. You don't even have to make sense! 

Bottom line: there are no knights in shining armors or guardian angels--you really MUST take care of yourself! No one can do this for you.

If you need help with this resolve--imagine yourself dealing with the same Junk but bedridden after a major stroke. It's not worth it.

Loving your husband, children does not mean you must do things that make you sad or sick. Yes, sometimes we make sacrifices, but not with our well-being.


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## Mid Tn Mama (May 11, 2002)

And, if you are still reading....

I'd tell my husband, I am only capable of taking care of x number of dogs and cats. Any more and you will have to make other arrangements because I cannot take care of them. That may mean finding homes for them or getting kennels made and paying someone to clean and take care of the animals. I understand it will take a bit for your to make arrangements, so I'll give you x days/months. {then I'd take matters into my own hands}

This puts the ball in his court.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Oh, I have begged and PLEADED to have kennels built. No go...his dogs are his "children" and they live in the house. I have threatened to move to the barn! I am going to set up the back rooms upstairs as a no-dog sanctuary...I've already decided that and I may end up moving into one of the bedrooms. 

Since I'm not allowed to decorate with all the "shabby chic" items I love I'm already in the process of gathering stuff for the back guest bedroom...what I call the "rose room". It will probably end up being my bedroom. I don't know why he doesn't want me to sleep in another room, it's not like he even knows I'm in the same bed with him. He keeps so many dogs in the bed, plus a pillow between us that I might as well start getting a good night's sleep.

When I had surgery on my neck for the ruptured disk (steel mesh and cadaver bone replaced the disk) he didn't put the dogs out of the bed. I did move to a guest bedroom then. He didn't like it, but I sure did!

Bottom line is if I insisted other arrangements be made for the dogs he would get rid of them to hurt me. I love these dogs as much as he does and I don't want to get rid of them. I just think it's okay to let dogs lead dog lives, not people lives. Know what I mean? I've even asked him if we could build them nice kennels and alternate dogs in the house...let it be a treat for them and me! If there were just a couple at a time in the house then I could keep up with cleaning...I could walk without tripping over dogs (I fall or get knocked down in the house all the time and he always says it's my fault for not watching out for the dogs...even if they knock me from behind. His favorite nickname for me is "Klutz")...I could have some peace and quiet knowing the dogs were safe in their kennels.

Trailrider...I've often asked both my hubby and son that very thing...what would they do if I got really sick and ended up in the hospital or died? When my son's daughter was born and I ended up trapped in Alabama for two months...one of the MOST stressful and difficult times of my life, hubby was no support. He just kept telling me to come home and he threatened to divorce me if I didn't. 

I guess I should have stayed in Alabama, but I am NOT ready to give up on this marriage yet. I've got to get my head straight before I make any drastic decisions. This farm was my dream for a long time...this is my home and I don't want to leave. I just want to be able to live in relative peace.

Oh...by the way, my son got in touch with me last night and didn't use a single four letter word or raise his voice. Guess my sister is getting to him!

You know, I guess when my grand daughter was born was the last time I put my foot down. As hard as it was, with no support from hubby, I was determined not to lose that child. I still feel that way too. He will NEVER be able to make me give her up. He wouldn't help me keep my first grand child. He can't stop me from keeping this one should it come to that and I've told him so.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I guess you're missing what I missed when I was married 

The "cherish" feeling when everything is more important than the one that is suppose to be part of himself and not an after thought.

I hope you will take photos of your Rose Room. 

And not putting the dogs out of bed after the neck operation - 
well.... and things that can not be said here...


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I think you need to go out, have your hair dyed red and then behave as though it's natural.
> 
> SOMEONE needs to get more in touch with her inner "B word".


Oh Lisa! I haven't laughed this hard for a long, long time!

Ravenlost, you bet your sweet bippy you need to do what Lisa says!

Your DH is using emotional blackmail on you! He is using your affection for the dogs to control you.


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> and things that can not be said here...


DITTO

I don't know you Raven but I really am upset for you. You are supposed to be an equal partner in your marriage, deserving of consideration and care. You are Wife, not your husband's mother who caters to his every want, nor your husband's child needing permission for your own wants. He is Husband, not master. What can he do to ease your stress - and why is he not doing it? I hope he steps up to the plate to save your sanity - and your marriage. If you are his priority - he will do so.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

I like your idea of a room all to yourself. Put a lock on the door and only you will have the key!

He can sleep with the dogs. HE can change the bedding and he can launder that!

I like the idea of the kennels. If he refused to build some, hire someone. The doggies can go in there when your're busy in the house. Iffen he doesn't like it, tough!!!!! He is NOT your lord and master! He does NOT make all the decisions.

BTW, I had a husband who liked to pout until I told him that he looked like a little kid who needed a pacifier and a nap! He didn't like that!


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## Homesteader (Jul 13, 2002)

RL please take care of yourself. If you had ANY idea how many many many of the people reading this are just flabbergasted how anyone could put up with this type of carp........

You need to go to therapy and I think you need to get away from him.

"(I fall or get knocked down in the house all the time and he always says it's my fault for not watching out for the dogs...even if they knock me from behind. His favorite nickname for me is "Klutz")."

This about sums the whole thing up doesn't it? He is the one who insists on putting dogs before a person, and it's YOUR fault you trip over them and if that wasn't bad enough he makes fun of you.

You are afraid of him. You are afraid of what he will do if you stand up to him and honey you need get away from this situation. I will NOT be popular in being this harsh about it but you need to get out of there.

No person needs to live like this. You do not deserve this and you need help. Please get help.

Let him get rid of the dogs. You can get other dogs. What's more important RL, you or dogs? I love animals too, we have lots and not one single one of them would ever be put before a human being.

This is an abusive relationship. "He just kept telling me to come home and he threatened to divorce me if I didn't. ". Let him. You might get yourself back in the process.

"I'm not allowed to decorate with all the "shabby chic" items I love".... Not allowed? Until you can see how messed up this is, you will not get better. Please get help.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

I am going to get help. And when my head is screwd on right the chips will fall where they fall. 

Sorry for flabbergasting so many folks. If the little bit I've posted is flabbergasting I'd better not post any more! Don't want folks keeling over from being overly flabbergasted! 

Of course, he does have his good points too and he's not the only one to blame for this situation. I'm not an easy person to live with either. 

He did stand up for me last night (finally). I had gone out yesterday evening to do the night's chores and had some of the dogs with me. I didn't know the farmer who plants our field was here raking the hay. He came around the trees and the dogs took off after him...the two smallest in front. I'm screaming at the dogs and waving at him and he doesn't even slow down. Fortunately, the dogs obeyed, stopped and came back to me and we went in the opposite direction to the chicken and goat pens.

Hubby got home from work while I was out there and, of course, here go the dogs to greet him. Unlike the farmer, he was watching for them (he had his windows down and could hear me yelling at the dogs) but by the time he got out to the pens to help with chores I was hyperventilating and having a major panic attack.

After he got me to the house and calmed down he went out and gave the farmer an ultimatum. Said if he couldn't have the decency to call and let me know he was going to be on our property then he would not be allowed back on the property and our deal was off (he uses our field and harvests our hay as payment). He's been told before...I confronted him last year when he was driving around the house and property (showing his worker where to cut hay) in a strange truck. I had no idea who it was and really let him have it. I seriously doubt hubby's talk with him last night will do much good, but at least hubby finally said something to him about it. 

Maybe I am a loose cannon right now because of all the steriods that have been injected into my spinal cord over the past three weeks. Hubby also went and had words with the neighbor. This past weekend they were going out and, we thought, shooting a gun right at dark. It was driving the dogs crazy, which in turn was making me a nervous wreck. Hubby went over and found out it was their teenage boy and his friends using up their fireworks from the 4th. Since he went over there it hasn't happened again...thank goodness.

I really wish I didn't have to have a nervous breakdown to get hubby to be considerate, but that's what it has come to I suppose. So Friday I will see my family doctor, get all my medical issues checked out and I'm not leaving his office until I either have a therapist's phone number or an appointment with one.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

Raven. 

There is sympathetic fire shooting out of my nose on your behalf. 

Therapist. Go visit those grandchildren and your dd. You say you are not perfect either... no one is, but we are all still responsible for our own actions.

I think your dh needs some help too but ghat really has nothing to do with you. You take care of you. Don 't let a man and his ever -growing packs of dogs dictate your life. 



I cannot even... whoever said flabbergasted was right. On your behalf, mind.


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, now that I have followed this thread for a while, and gotten a bit more info as to the situation, here is what I would do if it were me in RL's position. One room of the house would be a designated area for dogs. The rest of the house would be returned to "normal human habitat". If hubby wants to sleep with dogs, thats cool with me, he can bunk with his buds in their room where he can feed them, and take care of them. Once we had that chunk of "stress" resolved I would work on getting son into treatment for his problems, and consider my job done as far as raising him and his spouse and their offspring. I would also STOP trying to save the world and all of its fallen creatures. Then I would take a little time for just me.... yep, I am selfish like that, but I refuse to let my own mental health fall apart because others cant be bothered to take care of themselves. This is just me, and what I would do, your milage may vary.


While this may seem blunt, it resolves many issues, so you can take care of RL!


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Ravenlost....I love you! ((((((hugs)))))) (((((((bigger hug)))))) I really think you are moving forward now. Keep it going. This is a turning point for you and it doesn't mean you have to get rid of your hubby or the dogs. You are finding your way and I applaud you! I'm sure it feels scary but you will be fine and be able to make the life you deserve and want.


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## Mid Tn Mama (May 11, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> Oh, I have begged and PLEADED to have kennels built. No go...his dogs are his "children" and they live in the house. I have threatened to move to the barn! I am going to set up the back rooms upstairs as a no-dog sanctuary...I've already decided that and I may end up moving into one of the bedrooms.


Right, in the past you have begged and pleaded and it was ignored. That was the old you. The new you can give fair warning and hire someone to make the kennels/find new homes for the dogs. Whatever works for YOU.

I also wanted to make the point that your health/back problems do not make you "light on your feet." Any physical therapist would tell you that living with so many animals underfoot is asking for an injury from falling. As we age our balance begins to change, so this is a real concern. 

Don't let others guilt you into doing what you know you cannot. Obviously you love your family--there is a lot of ground between divorce and being driven into the ground!

If you asked yourself, you know that many rational people would not choose to live under these conditions. 

I would not advise making the decision to raise a little one at this time without an income and good health. It's important to make decisions when you are in a good place emotionally. That is not where you are presently.

Remember, you won't get the baby without the parents--no matter how the custody is structured. We cannot always protect or fix the choices that other adults make--no matter how painful it is to see.


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## Country Lady (Oct 2, 2003)

Ravenlost, please re-think all those dogs. You have a beautiful home. Having that many dogs inside can destroy your carpet and furniture. We have one outside dog that stays in the garage (which has a/c) nights and during the day when it's hot. The garage smells awful. We've had one small inside dog in the house at a time, from time to time, but I will never have another inside dog. I value my property too much. Some friends visited us a while back with their two small mutts and ruined the carpet in the guest bedroom. They will not be invited back again with their pets. Something for you to think about. They are animals, not humans. If you ever need to take this granddaughter, which you might need to, CPS would remove her from your home with that many dogs living inside. I don't mean to be unkind. This concerns me.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

They've already destroyed the carpet and two sets of furniture. Hubby says furniture can be replaced...each dog as an individual can not. He has promised new furniture for the New Year's get-together. I don't see the point in new furniture since it will just be ruined so I'm keeping my eye out for decent stuff at Goodwill. I only have one chair in the house to sit in...my computer chair. No one but a random cat now and then is allowed on it.

When we built this house we only had two dogs. I begged for no carpet and finally compromised with no carpet downstairs. Now we've already ripped out the carpet in the upstairs hall and if I could do it myself the carpet in our bedroom would be gone. Carpet in the guest rooms will be next. Fortunately, I keep the doors to those rooms closed so there are not many animals that get in those rooms. 

The door frames have been clawed to bits (front, back and garage door entrance), walls have been chewed on, etc. If any repairs are done, I do them. I have painted the entire downstairs by myself and when my back is healed I plan to do the upstairs.

If I should have to leave hubby to keep my grand daughter I have a good, safe, place to raise her...my mom's house. I can go and live there the rest of my life and have my mom and sister right there to help me. I know I can depend on them. They are my best friends (plus my dear daughter).

Md Tn Mama...no rational person would live the way we live. I never lived like this before I moved in with hubby. Guess that makes me a very unrational person...LOL.

Honestly, just putting this down and getting all of your responses is helping more than y'all know. It truly is. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I am glad you have your Mom nearby. That can be a positive for other outcomes of this situation that do not concern your granddaughter - should you need a space to be.

I am trying very hard not to say what you should do, cause only you know that - but I see your eyes opening and do recognized the signs from some time in my own past. Best wishes, and may your solution suit you well.

Remember being poor has nothing to do with dollars, but has much to do with quality of life.


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## pattycake (May 16, 2010)

Raven, I think it is obvious that we all love you!


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## Country Lady (Oct 2, 2003)

I just saw this on FB and thought of you.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Thank you! I am making that my computer wallpaper. Think he'll notice?


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

RL, have you noticed that the dogs all want to go to the kitchen when you are cooking? Well, kids do also.

So, my Mom declared that she was TERRIFIED of tripping over a dog or a child while she cooked, and on the strength of that both the pets and the younger children were banished from the kitchen while she cooked. I can still see our dashound sitting in the dining room watching her cook. He would get right to the entryway of the kitchen but then he stopped, as he knew he would be ordered out if he set foot in the kitchen.

I know now that my Mom MOSTLY wanted to focus on her cooking, but she was being honest when she said she was afraid to hurt a pet or a child. She was simply putting things in terms that her family could understand: nobody else had problem with the pets being wherever they wanted to be but we did understand how they could be tripped over or stepped on and get hurt, and so we helped her whenever she said "Can somebody please get this dog out of the kitchen?"

In time the pets learned better and stayed out when she was cooking.


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Ravenlost said:


> Thank you! I am making that my computer wallpaper. Think he'll notice?


If he doesn't, you will. Baby steps.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

LOL Terri...absolutely! Tonight I asked hubby to please count how many dogs I was trying to cook around and he came and ran them out of the kitchen. It's difficult to keep them out since our house is an open floor plan. The kitchen is wide open and I've threatened to put an electric fence around it!

Your mother had a good point though and I may try that since the electric fence threat didn't work.


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## SageLady (Jun 10, 2008)

Ravenlost said:


> LOL Terri...absolutely! Tonight I asked hubby to please count how many dogs I was trying to cook around and he came and ran them out of the kitchen. It's difficult to keep them out since our house is an open floor plan. The kitchen is wide open and I've threatened to put an electric fence around it!
> 
> Your mother had a good point though and I may try that since the electric fence threat didn't work.


 
You can set boundaries with your dogs too. They can be trained to stay out of the kitchen....might take some work, but it will be worth it!  I have house rules with my dogs, and they are to keep them safe and me from tripping over them and falling. My back is so bad that my doctor said one bad fall could put me in a wheelchair permanently, and I'm already having to use one some on bad days. You don't want that to happen to you either, Ravenlost. You need to take care with your back problems, etc. to NOT fall....I would think your DH would be more concerned about that happening to you!


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## Mid Tn Mama (May 11, 2002)

Again, IMHO (take what you want from it and please know I do not mean to offend...)

*RL*: I wanted to clarify that I was not calling you or your husband irrational, I'm trying to get you to *look outside your life*. Some of us grow up with unhealthy paradigms that prevent us from seeing things objectively. Just want you to see what other people do. We all react to life (and HT threads) with the filter of what WE have experienced. I'm asking you to look at your filter.

You may want to* look at the language that you describe issues* and turn these around to positive, strong,action  statements.

E.g. *"I threatened*": You are not threatening anything, you are stating what you need.

* "He threatened to get rid of "ALL" the dogs*. This statement reminds me of *dysfunctional parenting*--where parents swing from neglect and overly severe punishment. There is a *middle ground and you may have to teach him to find it. Be brave and risk the loss of all D*OGS. You can find homes for the dogs you need to get rid of. 

About the *farmer cutting hay without calling first:* While he should have called first, the problem is with the number of dogs. What would happen if one dog chased the farmer? If your dog will chase the farmer, the dog will chase the cars on the road. Again, *the issue is the dogs*--there are two choices: 1)loose dog will chase vehicles, and 2) fence the dogs. There are no other issues, are there? So really, *your husband isn't standing up for you so much as he is ignoring the reality that the number of dogs is a problem*.

I think this is a big part of the equation: "*I really wish I didn't have to have a nervous breakdown to get hubby to be considerate,"* Again, your goal is not to change him (or your son) but to change YOU. Your positive, action statement should be, "I will make specific changes to help my health. First, I will make these changes to sleep 8 hrs per night. Next, I will make these changes to walk 30 minutes per day, next I will make these changes to eat healthfully. 

In the farmer's defense (We also have someone renting our cropland): You know how in the south we have these Summer pop-up showers that you can not predict well. Our farmer is often racing against the clouds and calculating distance between his plots while calculating the gas spent to run out and do some work. Pretty complicated figuring. Yes, he should call--but the guy is juggling a lot of factors and racing between them. 

I suspect the reason these dogs are not at their original homes is that they were poorly trained.* Even if you and your husband were incredibly talented dog trainers, there are too many here to train at one time.*

I have found that when things get out of whack and you need to have a come to Jesus discussion: Do it at a peaceful time and hold hands. We have started with prayer and continue holding hands while each says their piece.


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## ginnie5 (Jul 15, 2003)

I haven't read all the replies but wanted to say {{{{hugs}}}}}
Please get the help you need! My dh is the same way.....he'd question the cost. I too would create an animal free zone. I just recently put our two dogs outside full time. One has always used the bathroom inside regardless of training and then the other one started, we assume because she kept seeing/smelling the other one doing it. I was mopping floors daily and just sick and tired of it. It's been 2 weeks now and its amazing how much better I feel in the mornings knowing I don't have to watch where I step or get 
up and mop every single day.

ok I went back and read more......and oh wow. You have so much more on your plate than critters! If dh loves you he needs to support you. If he wants a maid for the dogs let him hire one! By all means set you up an animal free zone! 
If I don't get enough sleep I feel awful. And you could still be suffering from menopause. I had a hysterectomy 8 years ago but kept both ovaries. Mine don't want to "work" reliably on their own. I still have hot flashes at random times. Your ovaries can "stop and start" working off and on over the years without a uterus to keep them in balance.

So just more {{{hugs}}} and prayers.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Yes, pets (and husbands) can be trained! 

We have two cats in the house and at feeding time they would circle me as I prepped their food. I had to dodge eight paws and two tails while operating my scooter. All the verbal commands didn't work so I bought a squirt gun! I think that they'd rather have their whiskers pulled out than have one drop hit them.

Now, the husband is a different story.....


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Ardie, you just gave me an idea. I think I'll get one of those super soakers to use on hubby.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Mid Tn Mama said:


> ...*Be brave and risk the loss of all D*OGS. You can find homes for the dogs you need to get rid of.
> 
> ...What would happen if one dog chased the farmer? If your dog will chase the farmer, the dog will chase the cars on the road. Again, *the issue is the dogs*--there are two choices: 1)loose dog will chase vehicles, and 2) fence the dogs. There are no other issues, are there? So really, *your husband isn't standing up for you so much as he is ignoring the reality that the number of dogs is a problem*.
> 
> ...I suspect the reason these dogs are not at their original homes is that they were poorly trained.* Even if you and your husband were incredibly talented dog trainers, there are too many here to train at one time.*..


I am not willing to risk losing all these dogs, as I know hubby would do that just to spite me. He's not one you can "call his bluff" on. He's so stubborn he will do things he doesn't want to do just to spte the other person.

I love these dogs with all my heart. There are a couple I could part with (Finn has killed a couple of my cats and Teagan is the biggest pest of a dog I've ever met) but it would make me sad to see them go. Had we rehomed them when we first found them I would have been fine. We've had them to long now...they are a part of our family. 

Our dogs can't chase cars. They don't have access to the road. Our house is a half mile off the road with a locked gate to keep people from coming up our driveway unannounced. Part of our barter agreement with the farmer was that he let us know when he'd be here so we could unlock the gate for him and keep the dogs in the fenced in yard. The first year he did that a couple of times. Then he started taking the locked gate off it's hinges. Now he's taken it down completely...with hubby's consent that he put in a wider gate for the bigger farm equipment. That hasn't happened...the gate has been on the ground for over two weeks, leaving me and the dogs vulnerable to strangers coming up. The dogs are confined to fenced in yards for their own safety. 

So, 1. Our dogs are not loose. The only time they are allowed outside the yard is with supervision. I honestly believe that someone coming on our property is trespassing if they can not abide by the rules they agreed upon. I don't care if they are farmers or the Pope. This is OUR property and they should stick to our rules.

And, 2. Our dogs are fenced 99 percent of the time. The ONLY time I ever take them outside the fence is in the evenings when I do chores. I only take certain ones...the ones I trust most and I take them partially for my safety (to warn me of a snake, etc.). I should be able to do this without worrying about some idiot showing up unannounced.

Your suspicions about why the dogs are not at their original homes is off base. Almost every one of these dogs was dumped out here on the side of the road when they were just puppies. Some of them were sick or injured when we found them. 

You see, we live in a very rural, very uneducated area of poverty stricken Mississippi. The people we live around have absolutely no qualms about dumping a litter of unwanted puppies out in the middle of a deserted road with no houses within sight. They do the same with their garbage...just dump it on the side of the road or off the bridge into the creek...the same creek their drinking water comes from. Obviously, the people around here have never heard of spaying or neutering because they can't seem to figure out how to stop their dogs from having litter after litter of unwanted pups. Until a couple years ago this county had no animal shelter. Now that we finally do the number of pups we find dumped HAS decreased...and that is a burden lifted off our shoulders.

I do NOT want to stop saving animals. I've been doing it since the day I was born. I just want to care for them in a way that doesn't take over every second of every day and every single inch of my house.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> Ardie, you just gave me an idea. I think I'll get one of those super soakers to use on hubby.


I actually did spray him the other day! I claimed it was an accident!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Country Lady said:


> I just saw this on FB and thought of you.


I have been hearing this kinda thing all my life, and still dont "get it". When I have problems I use a simple system that works so much better for me. I identify the problem, devise a solution to the problem, enact the necessary measures to solve the problem. Problem solved, no need to be heard or have my hand held. :shrug: And yes, I am well aware that other folks have different ways, I am just trying to point out that once the problems are solved, there is no longer any need to burden others..... who quite often have their own problems to deal with. This works for me..... your milage may vary.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby, that is a typical male response! Drives us women nuts.


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Um, no, it isn't a typical male response. What it is is a typical NOT codependent response. If you do nothing else, get the Boundaries book and workbook.

You know what changes need to be made to feel better, but some of your posts are the old "I'd feel better if I did A but I can't/won't/don't want to do A so I just have to suffer" things I used to say.

When you want to feel better you will make those changes. Or as my 12 step group used to tell me, "do you want to feel better or do you just want some sympathy?"


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Ravenlost said:


> Yvonne's hubby, that is a typical male response! Drives us women nuts.


Which is why God created galpals. 

The typical female attitude of "oh woe is me, and how dare you actually fix my problem!" drives us guys nuts.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

nodak3 said:


> Um, no, it isn't a typical male response. What it is is a typical NOT codependent response. If you do nothing else, get the Boundaries book and workbook.
> 
> You know what changes need to be made to feel better, but some of your posts are the old "I'd feel better if I did A but I can't/won't/don't want to do A so I just have to suffer" things I used to say.
> 
> When you want to feel better you will make those changes. Or as my 12 step group used to tell me, "do you want to feel better or do you just want some sympathy?"



I don't think RL is looking for sympathy at all! The above picture and words is about support. Some people do much better getting through life and it's up and downs with the support from others.....like your 12 step group.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

nodak3 said:


> Um, no, it isn't a typical male response. What it is is a typical NOT codependent response. If you do nothing else, get the Boundaries book and workbook.
> 
> You know what changes need to be made to feel better, but some of your posts are the old "I'd feel better if I did A but I can't/won't/don't want to do A so I just have to suffer" things I used to say.
> 
> When you want to feel better you will make those changes. Or as my 12 step group used to tell me, "do you want to feel better or do you just want some sympathy?"


Um no, I DO want to make changes which is why I took myself, all by myself, to a psychiatric facility last Friday and why I am going to see my family doctor in the morning to get a referral to a doctor recommended therapist. 

Sympathy is nice, but my emotional well being is way past being "fixed" with a little sympathy. And I am very well aware of that.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Of course RL isn't looking for sympathy!!! She is looking for support and advice! That is what CF is all about! 

The issues in RL's life didn't happen overnight and they won't be resolved overnight. In the meantime,we're giving her a place to vent and get support.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Which is why God created galpals.
> 
> The typical female attitude of "oh woe is me, and how dare you actually fix my problem!" drives us guys nuts.


Yep...it's the old "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" issue.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Ravenlost said:


> Yep...it's the old "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" issue.


Read the book, bought the movie, got the tshirt! LOL


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

And I appreciate it Ardie. I feel about as tall as a flea coming on here and spilling my guts like I have, but y'all have already helped me in so many ways. Your advice, support and comments are helping me find my way and to stay strong enough to get it.

I don't have that kind of support and advice from anyone close by as I don't have any connection with anyone here except hubby. There's not a single local person I could call up and hang out with, or just talk about things with. Not one. So I come here. You folks here at HT are a lifeline for me and I thank you all.


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## bryncalyn (Jan 7, 2013)

**hugs** It is difficult when things are overwhelming. When I got married I knew my husband had 4 dogs ... indoors. But I never experienced indoor dogs, little on 4 of them, with remodeling (that I was accustom to), and a feral kitten. Oh, newly married, he worked swing shift and I worked day shift. Yeah. Stressors are no fun. Things have cleared up a bit ... he now works days, I am SAHM to 2 that are 3 and under, 1 dog recently passed due to cancer, 2 are in a large confined area during the day, 1 dog is free roaming but seems to find the worst places to snooze her old bones. Not fun trying to open a baby gate and run downstairs when an 80 pound or so golden retriever is in front of it. Or fixing dinner for guests as a newlywed and finding out that baked ziti is a golden retriever favorite. Or that freshly baked bread is a delicacy. Or that chocolate cake for a birthday is devoured. I have learned that baby gates (we leave them leaning against doorways) are my best friend. Now, the real babygates (guarding stairways) are attached, fastened, and they ain't goin nowheres. 

With 25 dogs you will need a "dog free zone" for working. Whether it is putting them in bedrooms / bathrooms / or gating off a large area for them to play in. Have you seen the x-pens? My husband was joking about getting that for the kids .... well, they actually have them for kids. They are stand-alone baby gates that form a circle or another shape. May be that would work to keep the dogs in a "safe zone" for you?

I am not too familiar with the other parts of your story (I heard mention about your son, grandchild, etc). If I knew more background information I might add a bit of my advice but, well, I am not familiar with it enough to say anything sensibly. 

I do know that support groups help. Well, to an extent. There are times when they just get on the nerves. But that is when you have to look at why are they irritating, whether you can help them or if you just need to move on. 

I can understand to a point why your husband would ask about costs but he should also be willing to help you no matter what the cost. After all, there is only one you!


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Oh, bryncalyn, I wish those x=pens would work! However, our dogs range in size from 10 lbs (who is curled up in my arms right now) to over 100 lbs. Most are around the 60 lb. size. Two know how to open the front door, so it has to be kept locked. One of those and another dog (our biggest one, a Husky) know how to open the latch on chain link gates so we have to keep them locked. Our newest addition has figured out how to slip under and through the big gate on the side of the yard and two days ago she taught one of the other's how to do it. This weekend hubby is going to put up a different type of gate there.

I don't think an x-pen would hold our smart dogs (to smart for their own good). They might work for blocking off the kitchen, but not for long. 

We have two of those baby gates that attach to the walls for our stairs, but hubby has never put them up. I would like to have one at the foot of the stairs for our grandbaby's safety (which is why we bought them when the first grandbaby was born) but hubby doesn't see the point since she's only here once a year. 

He would definitely put up baby gates if she were here living with us and he would have no problem with putting up kennels, etc. for the dogs if she were here. And he knows that I will get her if it comes to it and he has accepted that. In that I just flat put my foot down. 

Within the year hubby is planning to build a shop next to the house...metal shop on a concrete slab for his lawnmowers, etc. Maybe by then I will be able to stand up for myself and insist that a row of kennels be built along one side of the shop. I've given it a lot of thought and don't think it would be a difficult thing to do. We already have enough kennel panels to do several 10x10' kennels. All we'd need to do is have concrete poured with rebar inserted to set the panels onto to secure them. I think this would be such an easy solution and would relieve so much stress for both of us. I don't understand why he can't see that!


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## bryncalyn (Jan 7, 2013)

I am not sure how he did it but we live in a 1970s style contemporary home with a garage and in the garage (partially underground so the temp is not that bad year round) he has the 10x10 kennels. I have put the dogs there summer (pretty cool unless the garage doors are open) or winter (still warm from residual ground heat) when I have just had enough with dogs underfoot, crying baby and screaming toddler. 

You see, I know what you are going through. I say if you can get those kennels up asap! Crates, imo, are ok for short periods of time but not for routine use. Unless you have a very large crate and a teeny tiny itsy bitsy dog.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

While you are kennel planning, plan on dealing with the poop and pee by a trough at the back of the row of kennels that empties into a large drain into a septic tank that can be pumped. Makes like a lot easier when you do not have to pick up poop all the time, just hose it down and three years later, have the septic folks come pump it out.

Costs a little, but worth it overall.

Sorry about having all those dogs inside, I could not stand it and I LOVE dogs. I have one inside dog and I bathe her and groom her and she doesn't shed much, maybe a teaspoon of hair once in a blue moon. I would be nuts if I had that many indoor dogs just trying to keep the house clean. I already vacuum twice a week and mop twice a week with just my little dog.

Hope you find a way to communicate your needs to your DH. I am afraid you may explode one day if you do not! 

Want me to come over and git you and take you yard sailing so you can have some peace of mind? I call yard saling my mental break, it doesn't matter if I don't find anything, i get out of the house and don't have to think about nothing for a few hours.

Get you some help, find your own person and as Lisa says "your inner b word" and stand up for yourself. You will be amazed how much better you feel when you talk about what matters to you.


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## bryncalyn (Jan 7, 2013)

Oh, and in case you haven't used it before, a spraybottle filled with water is great. One of the golden retrievers HATES water! Can you believe it? A water dog that hates water?? Anyways, it is a good method of disciplining but you probably already know about that one. Also a bean bag (according to my husband - I never used it) works. It makes a lot of noise. So would dry beans in a metal can. Of course cleaning up pee because of a scared dog isn't fun either (or when they "express themselves" - yeah, no fun with that one either).


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## Mid Tn Mama (May 11, 2002)

That all sounds like a plan.


My assumptions on the dogs being sick/untrained was based on my experience having animals dumped at our farm. When people have a dog that is difficult to live with (or is sick) they often dump the animal rather than train it/take to vet. 

I hope you can narrow your specific needs/wants down on paper so that you can present it. Sometimes our partners /family members need to own their own feelings. If you are sensitive, you are feeling your own feelings PLUS what you think they will be feeling.

Example: Lady is older and tired and doesn't think she can cook the traditional large family Thanksgiving. For years she does anyway because she is afraid of what the DH and children have said before (things like, dh says " no way can we NOT make the big dinner here." Children say they wouldn't bother to come if she did not do the big family dinner. So she continues to do it feeling more and more unhappy and stressed ON TOP OF her original feelings of being tired!

What if: She just sends an email to everyone that says "I'll provide the party place and will have to buy a pre-cooked turkey from the local Kroger. I'm asking you to sign up for one of the side dishes or drinks/paper plates.Here's the signup... Let me know so I know how big a turkey to order!"

Potato dish
Vegetable side
Vegetable side
Salad
Rolls/bread

Guess what? Dh may grumble, or he may even make the whole dinner. *HE* *owns* his choice, she doesn't. Either way--problem solved. Family members may choose to come or not, but you know what? Over time some family members just get simply too busy to come (unrelated to her issue of being tired).She does NOT need permission from family members who are not hearing what she is saying.

My point is that you can't predict how people will act and yes, sometimes they DO things that are very destructive (sell all the dogs, don't come home for Thanksgiving) but *they own that. *

Otherwise--you are a hostage.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Good points Mid TN Mama...I definitely feel like a hostage in my own home.

bryncalyn...in our house it's the flyflap or hubby's baseball cap. Pick one of those up, shake it at the dog and they put on their best behavior. I don't know what it is about the flyflap...I've never used it on any of the dogs (maybe hubby has) but I do know for sure that outside he has been known to throw his cap at a misbehaving dog!

sidepasser...I feel like I'm going to explode every second of the day.


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

Ravenlost said:


> Today I went to a psychiatric facility to be evaluated because the panic attacks I've been having are getting more frequent.
> 
> After evaluation the doctor and therapist recommended I attend sessions five days a week, four hours a day for six weeks or be hospitalized. Obviously, I am on the verge of a nervous breakdown!
> 
> ...


Hi Raven I checked like because of the brave thing you did. I am praying for you to get lasting and immediate help. You take care 
Dave


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

P.S I use a back scratcher and the words get over, when the critters are miss behaving, one wave of the back scratcher and they get out of the way for a full 10 seconds.


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Ya'll missed my point. I didn't say RL is looking for sympathy, but expressing what my 12 step group would say to me.


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

One other thing get a shock collar. It takes two maybe three uses and they will stay near and behave. Just change it to the dog that needs help understanding. I love my dogs but they cant run your life.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

davel745 said:


> One other thing get a shock collar. It takes two maybe three uses and they will stay near and behave. Just change it to the dog that needs help understanding. I love my dogs but they cant run your life.


Oh, I don't know. Sometimes I think that my DH would let the two cats run the household! When I'm clipping their nails while he holds them, if they get out of hand, I tap them on the nose and tell them that I'm the mama.
One day, DH made some smarty pants comment and I tapped him on the nose and reminded him that I'm the mama and they're the kitties! :teehee: :teehee:


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

No, I will not subject my dogs to shock collars. I can't subject them to that kind of pain. My daughter's husband (and the trainers they have used) insist on her dog wearing a shock collar because the dog will not stop barking. No amount of training would stop her and they live in the suburbs. That poor dog has worn a shock collar for almost her entire life and has a permanent scar on her throat because of it. No, I'll never do that to my dogs.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> No, I will not subject my dogs to shock collars. I can't subject them to that kind of pain. My daughter's husband (and the trainers they have used) insist on her dog wearing a shock collar because the dog will not stop barking. No amount of training would stop her and they live in the suburbs. That poor dog has worn a shock collar for almost her entire life and has a permanent scar on her throat because of it. No, I'll never do that to my dogs.


How about on DH?? :drum:


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## bryncalyn (Jan 7, 2013)

Heheehe ... shock collars. My parents had a dalmation who would leave the farm. They got a shock collar and when she got to the end of the driveway ....zap. Yup that dog would yelp and keep on going. This is after she chased down a car, caught it, bit the tire, got run over by it. Uh-huh, that dog was goin no matter what. And off she went. Pretty dog but hardheaded. IMO shock collars don't work on hardheaded dogs. 

Ravenlost, has your daughter tried the collars that mist the dog when it barks? We have a dog that barks and when she does I go and spray her (of course she is the one who hates water). One day ... 2am, new momma moment, I doused her with a whole pitcher full of water. Sweet revenge but I didn't like my soggy socks as I walked back upstairs.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

No, they never tried those. She lives in TX...a misting collar would probably have felt good to Panda!

She's not wearing the collar now. Panda is old and dying of bone cancer so she spends most of her time indoors. When she does feel like going outside Nicole just lets her bark to her heart's content. She thinks Panda deserves that in the last days of her life and I agree with her. 

Plus, her new neighbor has a yappy little dog so Panda isn't bothering anyone.


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## mamita (May 19, 2008)

thinking of you today and hoping all goes well!!!!!!!!!!


raven, I have to ask...how do you afford all the vet costs and flea/tick treatments for that many dogs. can't help it, just curious! I swear I have days when two dogs are almost too many. when there are muddy paws and slobber over storms, I about go nuts! 

HUGS to you and hoping you have help today that you are seeking!!!


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I keep thinking about the dump truck loads of dog food they must go through in a month. 

Take care Ravenlost - hope your appointment today goes very productively and the doctor really listens to you, and takes in what you are saying.


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## pattycake (May 16, 2010)

Praying for you today Raven.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Someone once told me that depression is often just anger without the enthusiasm. You sound very, very angry Ravenlost. And who could blame you when your husband behaves in such an immature, passive aggressive, bullying and disrespectful way towards you and wants complete control. 

But there comes a point in life when you have to take and make the life you want and not wait for someone to give it to you. You have to teach people how you want to be treated. This applies to both women and men. Start in small but decisive ways.

If you don&#8217;t want dogs in the kitchen why are they in the kitchen? Put them outside or in another room and if your husband lets them back in tell him that it is either you or the dogs in the kitchen. And then stand by what you want. 

If you want a peaceful room for crafts or just for yourself then create one. You can invite your husband in but if you tell him you want some privacy then he should respect this. Since this seems to be the problem - if he doesn&#8217;t respect your request then install a lock. 

Since your husband is a right fighter and will argue until he gets his way leave him to argue with his shadow. Walk away or just do not respond or argue and then do what you think is best. If he sulks and pouts ignore him (play some uplifting music) or talk to him as normal without expecting a response. In fact chatter about all sorts of things.

I hope counselling will help you but I think standing up for yourself will be just as important and effective. Stop tip-toeing through your life and do some stomping and tap dancing. Your husband does not know what is best for you otherwise you would not be in such a state so stop using him as your guide. In fact it is pretty clear that he has no intention of helping you and dealing with his problems (which he thinks he does not have) since he will not even read the information you have brought to him or call the counsellor as requested.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

mamita...my husband is an Air Traffic Controller. He makes very good money. Of course, every extra penny goes to the dogs. We never go out to the movies, to eat or anything anymore and I buy almost all our clothing, etc. at the Goodwill Outlet.

LOL...Angie, it's a 20-30 lb. bag of dog food a day, plus whatever old stuff I fix from the freezer to supplement it (freezer burnt venison, etc.). I like to make a big pot of "soup" to add to their kibble. If I don't fix them something hubby will open a large can of dog food and mix it with hot water to make a gravy.

emdeengee...whoever told you that has obviously never suffered from clinical depression. I have a chemical imbalance in my brain that has to be adjusted with medication. 

I wish all those things you're telling me to "just do" were that easy. They aren't, which is why I need help doing them. They are all things I would LIKE to do but I need counseling to help me stand up for myself. 

I know you mean well and are trying to help, but your advise is the same as my MIL telling me she believes depression is just an excuse for laziness and I should just "snap out of it". 

Oh, if life were only that easy!

BTW...Dr. Brown doubled my Zoloft dosage today so I am back on the maximum dosage and he made me an appointment with a psychologist for August 1 at 11:45. By then my body should have adjusted to the increase in medication.


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## mrsgcpete (Sep 16, 2012)

meditation and walking also prove effective but there is something to be said for just deciding to do what needs to be done. its not laziness but it will sap you of everything if you let it....zoloft left me flying higher than a kite...not every med works well forever


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Which is why I keep having mine adjusted mrsgcpete. And I have just decided to do what needs to be done...I decided to get myself the help I need to make myself whole again! It's been a long time coming and I already feel better/stronger for having done that much.


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## MidwestGal (Nov 5, 2010)

Ravenlost, I am so happy you saw the dr today. :clap: Just knowing help is on the horizon probably makes you feel better (higher Zoloft dosage kicking in and therapy coming soon). I understand you and know you can't just decide to "snap out of it". Those that say it, haven't been through it. "Mind over matter"......bwahahaha....please...if the mind was fully functioning at top level maybe. But with this anchor attached to your brain? Uh uh. The anchor was loosened some today and will be released soon. We are in this together. You and your whole homestead family here.  We're cheering you on woman! :clap:


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## bryncalyn (Jan 7, 2013)

Deciding that you are important enough to help yourself is the first step. And you know what? You ARE important!! Keep trying to be a healthier you!


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Ravenlost said:


> emdeengee...whoever told you that has obviously never suffered from clinical depression. I have a chemical imbalance in my brain that has to be adjusted with medication.
> 
> I wish all those things you're telling me to "just do" were that easy. They aren't, which is why I need help doing them. They are all things I would LIKE to do but I need counseling to help me stand up for myself.
> 
> ...


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> mamita...my husband is an Air Traffic Controller. He makes very good money. Of course, every extra penny goes to the dogs. We never go out to the movies, to eat or anything anymore and I buy almost all our clothing, etc. at the Goodwill Outlet.
> 
> LOL...Angie, it's a 20-30 lb. bag of dog food a day, plus whatever old stuff I fix from the freezer to supplement it (freezer burnt venison, etc.). I like to make a big pot of "soup" to add to their kibble. If I don't fix them something hubby will open a large can of dog food and mix it with hot water to make a gravy.
> 
> ...


Oh, I'm so happy for you!

What you wrote is 100% right! Depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain! Once that is brought back to normal, you can proceed with whatever changes in your behavior that needs to be done. By your behavior, I mean how you react to other people in your life!


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Ravenlost, I am feeling so hopeful for you this evening! You have taken some bigger-than-baby steps!

You are right that you can't just "snap out of it" and all the other so-called helpful things people say... but I saw a couple of bits of good advise in among the rest. 
1. Walk. Twenty-five years ago or so, when I was facing life crises like yours (the similarities are are quite striking) I found that walking was very helpful. It's hard to be deeply, deeply depressed while you are moving. It was a revelation to me. I also lost a lot of weight from the walking... which was a nice bonus.
2. Learn all you can in therapy. The day treatment program I was in had group therapy, assertiveness training, cognitive thinking and communication skills. It gave me a whole new set of tools to face life. I know you don't feel able to face a five-days-a-week program right now, and I totally understand this, but there are also some excellent "pop" psychology books that teach the same skills. David Burns' "Feeling Good" will give you the cognitive skills and there is a book called "When I say no, I feel guilty" for assertiveness training. Sorry... don't remember the author but it should not be hard to find.

Change is hard and often uncomfortable... but it is worth the effort to be in control of your life again. Hang in there... you will succeed. If you want to PM me, I will be glad to reply... but I don't want to push my views on you. 

Chin up, gather your courage and get ready to reclaim your life!


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Thanks everyone!


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Kudos, RL!

Once the physical issue is addressed you will be so much stronger to tackle the rest!

You are showing exceptional bravery to confront the issues!


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Glad you got to the doc yesterday and he has adjusted your meds and gotten you an appointment with the psych person. 

In the meantime, go about fixing yourself a space that is yours totally. You will be surprised how much better you will feel if you just have that one little space that the dogs don't come in and you can relax. I did that when my twins were toddlers, I could go to that little spot and I could see them, but they weren't tugging and pulling on me constantly and five minutes in that little spot made me refreshed for the next hour. It's a little break that gives you a moment to gather your thoughts and focus on YOU.

Good for you, baby steps and hope things are better soon!


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

I plan to start on it tomorrow sidepasser, as soon as hubby leaves for work!

He was lecturing me again today on needing to get my stuff organized or he was going to start throwing it away. I tried to tell him my plans about putting up the baby gate and how I wanted to do things and he kept cutting me off and telling me how it was going to be done...how MY space was to be organzied, etc. 

I have a migraine today and got fed up. I finally said to him, "If you would just stop talking and let ME say something maybe we'll get somewhere" and went on to explain to him how it is MY space and I should be allowed to organize it in the way that works for ME. I told him my organization/purging ideas and what I want to accomplish in the back part of the upstairs as far as making it my "stress free" zone. 

He rolled his eyes a bit, but maybe some of it sunk in. At least he stopped talking long enough to let me have my say...that felt good even if it did go in one ear and out the other!


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## BamaNana (Dec 31, 2004)

Ravenlost said:


> He rolled his eyes a bit, but maybe some of it sunk in. At least he stopped talking long enough to let me have my say...that felt good even if it did go in one ear and out the other!



I am so happy and proud of you! Continue to stand your ground, inch by inch... it will eventually sink in his head that you can make your own decisions.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

I am praying for you. I am so sorry for what you are enduring.
You are too precious for such treatment.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Aw, thanks Laura.


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## Suzyq2u (May 17, 2010)

I hope things start smoothing out for you soon - glad you got to see the doc and the psychologist is around the corner  Hang in there!


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> I plan to start on it tomorrow sidepasser, as soon as hubby leaves for work!
> 
> He was lecturing me again today on needing to get my stuff organized or he was going to start throwing it away. I tried to tell him my plans about putting up the baby gate and how I wanted to do things and he kept cutting me off and telling me how it was going to be done...how MY space was to be organzied, etc.
> 
> ...


Go get 'em, Tiger! Rip 'em a new one!


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

Ardie/WI said:


> Go get 'em, Tiger! Rip 'em a new one!


Hopefully you will have a lot organized, and probably some bags loaded for trash pick-up when he returns. 

Also if you can have his version of the favorite CD playing, or a cold beer or a glass of wine ready for him, that wouldn't hurt, as this is not the "War of the Roses"

If he is critical of the new look, and your progress on straightening things up, you will need to tell him this is what you were able to do based on how you were feeling, and you regular workload. If he has anything besides encouragement for him after that, look him in the eye and say "DON'T PUSH ME" and fully mean it.

When he realizes you intend to sleep in the new bedroom, let him know he is welcome, but the dogs must continue to sleep in his room.

Best of luck.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Maybe one of the problems is your DH is bring his work attitude and the things that make him good at his job home--maybe he isn't getting enough sleep either. I do think we need to remember that the fact that he is decisive and telling pilots what to do at work may make it hard for him to "change hats" when he is home and tired. No one wants an air traffic controller that is saying things like "maybe you'd better take run way A3, no take B3 if you'd like that better!" He has to be decisive and make instant decisions at work, and he has to be obeyed. If he is tired and stressed, he may not be adjusting at home, and not realizing it.
He may also be extremely stressed at the thought of becoming a first time father, at his age, no matter how willing he is to do it. He has to have many good qualities. He is willing to rescue and support all the animals, be a father figure to your kids most of the time, and support a beautiful farm. I do think he would do better if he got a good nights sleep, minus the dogs as well! 
I have a problem with some of his responses too, but let's cut him some slack. He is probably a pretty good guy.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Rick, if he comes home and it is already done he won't be critical...he'll be relieved! That's why I prefer to do things when he's not around. Otherwise it has to be his way or no way.

Molly Mckee, you make some good points. He was a 40 year old bachelor when I met him and very set in his ways. He is stubborn and thinks he's always right just like his mother...I'm sure since infancy she has encouraged this in him. He was the oldest of four and often put in charge of his younger siblings. He's bossy and used to having people do what he says.

I had been supporting myself and two kids for over 10 years when I met him. I'm stubborn like my Daddy and always have been, but I'm also soft-hearted and generous to a fault like Daddy. I am the oldest of three and my mother always held me responsible for everything because I was the oldest...see where I'm going with this?


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## cwgrl23 (Feb 19, 2004)

bryncalyn said:


> 1 dog is free roaming but seems to find the worst places to snooze her old bones. Not fun trying to open a baby gate and run downstairs when an 80 pound or so golden retriever is in front of it.


I would look into a pet bed for arthritic or old pets. We had a cat like that. I bought a small dog bed and that helped her for a while as it held her body heat in and kept her warmer. Once that stopped working, I bought a pet heating pad. Yes, I know spoiled but I don't want her to be in pain and it was an easy and drug free fix. I put that in her bed. I turn in on low in the summer and medium in the winter. It has an auto shut off. Now she is a much happier cat. It has also helped keep her out of the way as well. Perhaps that will help your golden retriever "rug". Otherwise, find a place that is appropriate for naps and train the "rug" to nap there. I used to be owned by a great dane. Talk about an area rug! He learned were it was safe to lay down and were he was going to get stepped on. I also gave him an old blanket to lay on where sun comes thru the windows much of the day. Made the choice easier for him back then to stay out of my way.  Sure miss my big area rug!

Carrie in SD


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## cwgrl23 (Feb 19, 2004)

Ravenlost said:


> Rick, if he comes home and it is already done he won't be critical...he'll be relieved! That's why I prefer to do things when he's not around. Otherwise it has to be his way or no way.
> 
> Molly Mckee, you make some good points. He was a 40 year old bachelor when I met him and very set in his ways. He is stubborn and thinks he's always right just like his mother...I'm sure since infancy she has encouraged this in him. He was the oldest of four and often put in charge of his younger siblings. He's bossy and used to having people do what he says.
> 
> I had been supporting myself and two kids for over 10 years when I met him. I'm stubborn like my Daddy and always have been, but I'm also soft-hearted and generous to a fault like Daddy. I am the oldest of three and my mother always held me responsible for everything because I was the oldest...see where I'm going with this?


Just an idea, based on what his job is, on how to deal with his bossiness. Ask, "do I look like an airplane?" and smile and giggle? If nothing else, it should stun him enough for you to get a word in edgewise. Or "RL to tower, ok to leave the run on hallway123?" Again said with a smile and a giggle! Might help remind him that you are his wife not an airplane pilot! If nothing else, you get a giggle out of the deal. One more than I will quit, "Yes tower control, whatever you say tower control." Start calling him tower control all the time. Again with a smile and a giggle. My hubby sometimes calls me "drill sergeant". Then I know it is time to back off, walk away, and breathe a bit. He can call me on the carpet for bad behavior but in a way that I don't mind and recognize that I am being the backend of a horse. 

Just some ideas. I am so very glad that you are getting the help you need!!! Hugs to you!

Carrie in SD


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## bryncalyn (Jan 7, 2013)

Ravenlost ... thinking of you on this cloudy breezy day and hoping that you find a place to rest and think (or not) for a few minutes.


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## unregistered5595 (Mar 3, 2003)

Ravenlost said:


> That's why I prefer to do things when he's not around. Otherwise it has to be his way or no way.


I predict your next big crisis will be when he decides to retire. You'll have to do everything when he is around, his way or no way.
(I do have empathy for your situation--which is, impossible to deal with, without major changes in the household.)

Rhetorically speaking. If I came to you or HT with a problem, where I worked, first shift, second shift, AND third shift, taking care of 20 animals at a no kill shelter, with the possibility of more animals at any time. A manager in charge that expected me to do a great job without breaks, living in my living space (the dogs and the manager). I'd expect to hear how slavery was abolished, state and federal laws were in place and how I should get a lawyer and not a counselor.
(sorry if this sounds harsh--being softhearted toward strays has gone beyond soft heartedness and is now sounding detrimental to your health and welfare.)


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

He retires in February. 

I'm feeling a little better since my sister is dealing with my son. He did call yesterday and when things started to escalate I just told him quite sternly that I did NOT want to argue with him so I was hanging up the phone. He hung up first. Oh well...

Bloodwork done last Friday showed my Vitamin D is back down in the "dangerously low" levels (14) so I'm going back on megadoses of Vitamin D. I'm sure this has had a huge affect on my moods and energy level.

Anyway, still planning to see the psychologist August 1. Hubby has grudgingly agreed to go once or twice (his words) if the psychologist insists.

Oh, he's planning to take a day off next week to take me on a date for my birthday. He wants to take me out to eat and go see a movie HE wants to see. He said this is something we are going to make a habit of doing once he retires...going out once a week. We'll see...I wouldn't mind not having to cook dinner!


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Most of our friends DH's have retired in the last few years or so. The men have all had a terrible time adjusting. They have almost all been ready to manage their wives and homes. The first year is the worst--then you learn to ignore it and work around it. It is a big adjustment for everyone and the disposition of the people doesn't seem to make much difference.
I'm not trying to scare you, just warn you that it may take some adjusting to, and your DHs basic personality doesn't seem to change things. They all go through it.


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## unregistered5595 (Mar 3, 2003)

Ravenlost said:


> He retires in February.
> 
> I'm feeling a little better since my sister is dealing with my son. He did call yesterday and when things started to escalate I just told him quite sternly that I did NOT want to argue with him so I was hanging up the phone. He hung up first. Oh well...
> 
> ...


Shall I tell my adult boys to get married and measure their love by the following behavior?
When she is sick, ignore her and don't worry, she can take care of herself.
When she says no more arguing, hang up on her, you are in charge.
When she needs psychological help you drove her to, begrudgingly go 1ce or 2ce, for appearances sake.
On her birthday, take her out to your restaurant and movie and *make* her have a good time.

Shall I? Shall I really tell my adult boys that this is what love looks like?
*cough* *cough* *cough*, I'm thinking no, NO NO NO.

Go to aruba, don't bother with the counselor. You are not crazy, you are a piece of furniture, or a pet.


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## modineg44 (Jun 25, 2002)

Many women I know went to work full time after their husbands retired. It seems to have worked out for most of them. Some of the women said the only alternative was divorce.

Nancy


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

Feather In The Breeze said:


> Shall I tell my adult boys to get married and measure their love by the following behavior?
> When she is sick, ignore her and don't worry, she can take care of herself.
> When she says no more arguing, hang up on her, you are in charge.
> When she needs psychological help you drove her to, begrudgingly go 1ce or 2ce, for appearances sake.
> ...


Love does not mean willing to get rid of the things your spouse loves most in the world, breaking her heart just to spite her. 

Love does not mean dictating someone's life without regard to her feelings, and not allowing her to have a say in her own home.

Love is more than just appreciating someone's usefulness around the house. A hired hand can do that.

Love means encouraging your spouse to be happy. Encouraging her to feel good about herself. Never demeaning.

Love means wanting to do for the other person.

There are givers and takers in the world. Only the best givers can tolerate the worst takers. We know which one Raven is.

Here's hoping for a healthy, happy Raven.


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> He retires in February.
> 
> ..........blood work done last Friday showed my Vitamin D is back down in the "dangerously low" levels (14) so I'm going back on megadoses of Vitamin D. I'm sure this has had a huge affect on my moods and energy level.....


You need D3 bad like fish need water !!! Please call the Drs office and ask if they checked your Vitamin D, 25 hydroxy level as that is the best test 

Increasing your Vitamin D, 25 hydroxy level to 70 or more is mandatory. It will help fight the anxiety, fatigue and other health issue,Do not accept anything lower that 60 and with your conditions many would say 100 is your cut -off.

Will you be taking D3 or the D2 injections the doctors prescribe? Our bodies do not absorb D2 as well as D3. I took 4250 units of D3 for 9 non summer months and when I had my level checked it was at 65.6 ng/mL.

Here is a HT Alternative Health thread if you care to read it!

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/alternative-health/469131-vitamin-d3-2.html

My post 49 gives some info, and post 47 shows a link for foods containing Magnesium which is necessary for absorbing Vitamin D as well as Calcium.

I hope you like the movie.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Thanks Rick. My doctor always prescribes D2 pills for me...50,000 iu twice a week for 10 weeks. Last year by taking those I was able to get my level up from 6 to 32 and now I'm back down to 14 so he's put me back on them. 

However, this time I am going to supplement with D3 at home. I have some liquid D3 and some D3 gummy chews. And, even though I do not tolerate sunlight well (makes me break out and scar) I am going to get some sun exposure daily.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

RL, it sounds as if you have a good handle on the situation! You know what's best for you. Keep that in mind.

BTW, getting married at 40 and being set in his ways is not an excuse for being a horse's patootie. Suggest a different movie to go and see and, if he pouts, so what?!!!! You could tell him that his face is going to freeze with that expression! ound: (If he acts like a child, treat him as a child.)


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## sherry in Maine (Nov 22, 2007)

Ravenlost, I wish you well on this journey.
I haven't read but a few replies, so dont know when/what/etc.
I hope your dh figures out that he needs to help by going to counselling; it might not be 'his problem' but he is part of your life.
It's good to deal with the problems. No matter how good or bad life can be, these things can still happen.


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## unregistered5595 (Mar 3, 2003)

SunsetSonata said:


> There are givers and takers in the world. Only the best givers can tolerate the worst takers. We know which one Raven is.
> .


Sunset I agree with everything you wrote--except for the above.

Everyone is a giver and a taker, and those 'nice' people (givers) that are getting sucked dry of every ounce of human decency get their energy (and become takers) from everyone else around them, strangers on the internet, their siblings, their kids, their parents, their neighbors. So we are all going to pay for the way her DH treats her.
They-the Ravens-- are the martyrs in society. Some become resentful and bitter and spend the rest of their lives taking it out on everyone else. Some get so stressed out from giving all the time they get sick and sicker and sicker until some kind of cancer eats them alive. (that would describe my martyr Grandmother)
Raven doesn't deserve the treatment she gets at home. After she is gone for a few weeks--for treatment, or even if she just took a vacation alone--things will get better to some extent because her husband will have to take care of the dogs alone for an extended amount of time. Even if Raven learns to say no, demands to be treated with respect and decency, it won't change her DH much at all.
Raven I wish you the best of luck with your treatment and that you start getting the love and care you richly deserve.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Abusive Actions and Behaviors

(There are 4 categories, Physical, Emotional, Verbal, and Sexual)

*Emotional Abuse*

Hurtful Teasing
Ignoring your feelings
Swearing
Name Calling
Blaming
Destruction of Property
Hurting Pets
Control of Employment
Jokes about your body
Withholds affection
Put Downs
Humiliation
Threatening 
Controls all Money
Controls Friendships
Rigid gender roles
Yelling 
Insults
Hurtful criticism
Threats to friends
Control of Time
Taking children
Put down family

*Verbal Abuse*

Yelling
Interruption 
Threats
Insults
Put Downs
NOT listenings
Swearing 
Name Calling

*Characteristics of an Abuser
*
Low Self-esteem
Insatiable ego needs, childlike narcissism
Poor impulse control, explosive temper
Emotional dependency 
Unachievable ideas or goals
Subject to secret depression
Alcohol or drug use
Controls mate / possessive 
Excessive jealousy and possessiveness
Projects blame, accepts no responsibility for problems
Socially isolated
Believer social myths about battering
Rigid sex role expectation
Sets up self as God
Uses sex as replacement for intimacy
Threatens homocide or suicide
Stress disorder, psychosomatic complaints
Uses sex as and act of aggression or dominance
Pregnancy often marks the first assault
Participation in pecking order battering
Uses threats to control
Unable to accept responsibility for thoughts, feelings actions.
Hate his violence
Poor Communication
Impatient, compulsive, insecure


I spent 2 hours with a counselor yesterday......
I am not crazy. 
I have been abused....
There is healing, and hope.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Good for you Laura! I'm so happy for you!

Feather in the Breeze...I spent six weeks away when my grand daughter was born...six weeks that I had not planned to spend away from home. I left for a two day visit to see my newborn grand daughter and didn't come back for six weeks. Nothing had changed, except he was angry I'd been gone so long.


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## unregistered5595 (Mar 3, 2003)

Ravenlost said:


> Feather in the Breeze...I spent six weeks away when my grand daughter was born...six weeks that I had not planned to spend away from home. I left for a two day visit to see my newborn grand daughter and didn't come back for six weeks. Nothing had changed, except he was angry I'd been gone so long.


So essentially, you are going to inpatient treatment, so that he won't be so angry? So that he will become caring and considerate? If you can find a good reason to go, I'm all for you doing it. Just tell me it will do something for you, something more than a good vacation couldn't cure.
On a good vacation, you'll find out, strangers treat you better than your DH, they will love you better, treat you with respect, and not use all your energy to please them. And when you are kind to a stranger, you are repaid with kindness as well.
If you are going for inpatient treatment, at least don't come back until he begs you to come back because he realizes how good you are to him. Don't come back because the dogs miss you and he's tired of taking care of them.
Otherwise, he'll always hold your inpatient treatment as a concession that you are actually crazy, anything and everything IS your fault, and it will be just one more reason for him to treat you like a doormat or a pet. The inpatient treatment bill will continue to remind you of this for the next few years.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Um, no, I'm not going to inpatient treatment. My family doctor set up an appointment with a psychologist for August 1. I am hoping to start seeing him for one-on-one sessions once a week.


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## mamita (May 19, 2008)

geez, Feather. give it a rest. Raven is doing what she needs to do. how about just a little support instead of beating it to death. that's not productive, but rather annoying as heck.


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Feather In The Breeze said:


> Have it your way. 200+ posts later.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


If it takes 5000 posts, does it matter? She's making progress IMO. Just because it's not on your schedule doesn't mean she isn't moving ahead. I try very hard to only be encouraging because people like me who have escaped abusive relationships are like reformed smokers who, as we all know, tend to be annoyingly self righteous.


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## Melissa (Apr 15, 2002)

Change and progress are never made overnight. She is doing what she can to deal with the issue and that is a good step for her. No sense in being rude or attacking her over and over...


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Feather In The Breeze said:


> If you can't recognize support when you see it, then, that is your choice.


I do recognize it. But I also know when I was barely keeping my head above water I didn't need to "hear" I was stupid. Even if that wasn't the message being sent. It's what I heard--any criticism was a personal attack on me because I already knew I was the scum of the earth and the reason "he" was unhappy/failed/ill/unlucky/etc.

I have never been a patient person; part of that probably has to do with how my father treated me. I expected myself to be more than perfect and, though I realized others wouldn't/weren't, I couldn't figure out why they didn't strive for my lofty yet impossible goals. Without someone telling me I'm worthless, I've become a bit more accepting of others and of me. BTW, if a few really mean people hadn't "whacked me upside the head", I'm not so sure I'd have gotten out; being blunt is not a bad thing.


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## unregistered5595 (Mar 3, 2003)

katydidagain said:


> I do recognize it. But I also know when I was barely keeping my head above water I didn't need to "hear" I was stupid.


yet, I never called you or Ravenlost, stupid.


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Feather In The Breeze said:


> yet, I never called you or Ravenlost, stupid.


I didn't think you did. I just said that's what I "heard" when I was criticized when I was in the trenches. It's obvious you care very much.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Feather, I understand your frustration.
It has taken me 2 years to get where I am today........and I STILL struggle (deeply) with "am I doing the right thing, maybe I should just beg him to forgive me and take me back".

Years of being mentally and emotionally terrorized tends to re-wire the human brain.
(not to mention satan is a most excellent liar, and he is very crafty).

It has taken more than 2000 posts, pm's, deleted threads, infractions, ect. but let me tell you this:
I am so thankful, SO thankful for those who had the patience to stick through it with me and stay consistent and share their experiences. 
Those who kept recommending the same book, sharing a video, a poem, a inspirational quote, a song.

The book "Boundaries" by Townsend and Cloud........amazing. Simply amazing.

It hurt when people got frustrated with me.
I understand why they did, it was TOTALLY justified.
But it still hurt.....and I turned it, like everything else, in on myself.

If a thread makes you angry or frustrated because it seems SO OBVIOUS (and it is to those who are not deep in the trench) and they are just 'ignoring facts'.......
It's so much deeper than that.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Feather, I understand your frustration.
> It has taken me 2 years to get where I am today........and I STILL struggle (deeply) with "am I doing the right thing, maybe I should just beg him to forgive me and take me back".
> 
> Years of being mentally and emotionally terrorized tends to re-wire the human brain.
> ...


Oh, my friend, you almost made me cry! An emotional and physically childhood plus two abusive marriages really had me wired wrong too. It's difficult to "get ones head on straight" and you are a shining example of the work you've done on yourself.

RL needs our love and support and I hope she gets it here. If someone doesn't understand her pain....well, karma is a strange thing. Until a person walks a mile in someone elses shoes, they should either be kind or be quiet!


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I think insisting that someone should leave their husband when you don't know either person in real life, is not helpful. You see the worst side of the problem and make a snap decision based on your experience, not theirs because you don't really know theirs. Making life changing decisions when you have serious health and family problems- not involving the marriage- going on is not a good idea, IMO. 

RL is no fool. She will make the right choice for her.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Ardie/WI said:


> Until a person walks a mile in someone elses shoes, they should either be kind or be quiet!


I agree completely with this, After you have walked a mile in someone's shoes you are much safer, yer a mile away, and they are barefoot.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I agree completely with this, After you have walked a mile in someone's shoes you are much safer, yer a mile away, and they are barefoot.


smarty pants but very funny!


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## Queen Bee (Apr 7, 2004)

Sometimes, it is easier to ask forgiveness , than for permission! If you need a break.. Fill the freeze full of things your dh can warm up, and a huge pot of stew for the dogs. Pack your bags and go somewhere..... Somewhere you can rest...no drama,no kids, no animals, no responsibilities! 

I am also a huge rescue fan! At one time we had 13 dogs, several cats and of course my beloved Dachshunds (on average 3), 3 teenagers, a full time job, sick parents , who I was responsible for and my sister who was living with me during the last 18 months of her life (breast cancer). I was having a breakdown and no one had even noticed... I woke up one morning wrote a note, went to the beach ( dead of winter) , rented a room and slept for two days... Sat on the beach bundled up in a quilt, wool coat and felt the wind on my face... On the third day, I packed up and went home! The kids were very quit, for a few days my husband walked on eggshells, the animals survived and my sister was still alive. The house was cleaner than I left it and I was much better.... It only happened once.... Never needed to do it again. We decided not to replace the animals that died and we are down to 4 . There are many no kill shelters here and I help them, donate food, blankets, pillows,etc that I buy at the yard sales,Goodwill. To the Dachshund rescues I sent collars, harness, leaches and ask my kids to do so for my birthday, Mother's Day, etc. since I really need nothing, None of the dogs now sleep in our bed! I have too many aches to sleep wound around 4 dogs and my husband... 

I pray you can find your own limits and understand YOU and only
YOU can make your life easier, better, more peaceful..


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Molly Mckee said:


> I think insisting that someone should leave their husband when you don't know either person in real life, is not helpful. You see the worst side of the problem and make a snap decision based on your experience, not theirs because you don't really know theirs. Making life changing decisions when you have serious health and family problems- not involving the marriage- going on is not a good idea, IMO.
> 
> RL is no fool. She will make the right choice for her.


Sometimes people who have been through the pain preach escape only because that's what worked for them.. And it's good for someone in an abusive situation to hear that side also because not every relationship can be fixed. I did leave--totally--but that was my choice. This is my life; I can't tell someone else how to live theirs and won't. Doesn't mean I wouldn't love to do so.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I agree completely with this, After you have walked a mile in someone's shoes you are much safer, yer a mile away, and they are barefoot.



I was thinking of exactly that when I posted it!


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## Grandmotherbear (May 15, 2002)

Ravenlost- I read this when first posted and not even a page long. Today I sat down and read it from start to finish. I thought it was interesting to watch your evolution thru the thread. First you stated the problems, over and over. But each restatement shed a little more light on what the problem was. Then you reported on the steps you were taking (or thinking about taking) to deal with the problem. Lastly was the physical results of the physician exam and blood work and the supplementation you will be doing with Vitamin D and the pending psychiatrist visit . You also stated you would take a little sun yourself despite the bad physical reaction you have to sunlight. Please restrict your sunning to 10 minutes early morning or in the evening till you see how you physically respond. Stress may make your reaction to sunlight worse. I do believe in the benefits of fresh air and do encourage to get outside, but pleasebe protected from the sun. Now, one of the things I noticed is that this thread can be compared to someone going thru grief. Bereaved people recount the illness and their choices for treatment over and over but each retelling adds a little bit to our understanding. As people realize the EXTENT of their problem, they begin to look at what their choices have been and consider could anything different have been done. They look at how they are reacting and eventually may choose to make different choices in how they are reacting. The bystander hears a tale that gradually changes from victimization to strength.
It is a GRADUAL change and each step must be shared with a chosen community who can offer empathy, sympathy, and coldly logical responses- of course, not all from the same person or at the same time.
Ravenlost, I think you may have been grieving the "old you" and how the old you thought your life would be.
But at the end of the thread you are starting to take steps to a "new you". I don't knw how the new you will compare to the old you- you probably don't know either. But over the last few pages your responses showed increasing strength. I am happy to see it. In the depths of grief, we are all afraid it will never end, but we do eventually come out the other end. I hope to see some decrease in misery and increasing amounts of happiness in your life.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Just wanted to let everyone know I am alive. My computer, however is not. It had a meltdown...literally.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Better it than you but that's a shame! Time to go shopping!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

ravenlost, I'm more inclined to think that you and your husband have developed a relationship pattern over the years that is simply not working for you now because of health issues and additional stress. 

When you married, you were accustomed to handling day to day issues, likely didn't have time to slow down if you were feeling poorly and like so many other single moms, didn't really complain about because you simply had keep going. Your husband was a long time bachelor and he likely didn't realize that he should shoulder some of the burden because you handled it so well and he likely doesn't realize that by adding a few more things to your daily responsibilities here and there over time that he was actually part of a way bigger issue. 

The dogs would be a perfect example. It likely started with one and one doesn't seem like a big deal but those numbers gradually increased over time and because you are a doer, you simply accepted the one more without realizing that it was actually a lot more work for you. 

I truly feel that your health is a primary issue and must be resolved and I believe that he is a smart man, you two have been together for quite a while and he simply needs to understand that you simply need his support in shouldering all that you have on your plate.


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## OK Yankee (Oct 30, 2005)

Have read ALL the posts! Whew! Raven, you don't know me, I hardly ever post, BUT, boy, can I relate to your problems. Maybe not quite as severe as yours, but these posts from these caring (mostly) people and HT family have given me some insight and some tools to help myself.
You are doing what I should have almost 42 years ago. I just wish you continued success and hoping you find the peace that everyone deserves.
I will be reading this all the way to the finale where you go " Guess what?! I made it!" I know it will be a long road but everyone here is pulling for you! You go girl!

Yankee


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## Nette (Aug 17, 2003)

Ravenlost said:


> Just wanted to let everyone know I am alive. My computer, however is not. It had a meltdown...literally.


About the computer, I had to buy one recently for the dairy and needed one with Windows 7 in order to interface with the software. I got a good price on a refurbished one from Overstock. This is the second one I've bought from there, and so far/so good.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

We got a new computer today from the guy who always fixed our old one. It has Windows 7 on it. Came with a three year warranty.

Day after tomorrow I go see the psychologist for the first time. I'm going to be a nervous wreck.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> We got a new computer today from the guy who always fixed our old one. It has Windows 7 on it. Came with a three year warranty.
> 
> Day after tomorrow I go see the psychologist for the first time. I'm going to be a nervous wreck.


My friend, you have nothing to fear. Nothing to lose and everything to gain. It will be enlightening and uplifting in the long run.

Am glad that you're back on line! :thumb:


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Ravenlost said:


> We got a new computer today from the guy who always fixed our old one. It has Windows 7 on it. Came with a three year warranty.
> 
> Day after tomorrow I go see the psychologist for the first time. I'm going to be a nervous wreck.


Raven.....spill your guts.
Speak what you have never spoken.
Dig deep and pull up things you have never mentioned.
Hide, nothing.
Fear, nothing.
Ardie is right, you have everything to gain, and nothing to lose.......


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## bryncalyn (Jan 7, 2013)

Thinking about you today Ravenlost. As I am nursing a sore foot from a bad day that started with the dog at the top of the stairs and a baby gate. Luckily it was the end of the day and I tripped UPSTAIRS just as my husband was opening the doors. The dog was lying in her usual blockade and I tripped over her at the final step. He finally got to see why I complain about her (luckily both kids were downstairs and no one was in my arms). Then on I went, after dinner, downstairs and stubbed me toe on the toy piano. Then later on, putting the baby down for his bedtime I caught one of those beaded wire toys in my toes. Here I am still hurting and it all started with the dog at the top of the stairs. Kinda funny but ouch too. 

Hope that your day is much better - and if mine starts going the way yesterday went I am just going back to bed.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

You need to start wearing steel toed boots!


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

I just put new laces in my steel toed boots last night. Honest I did. My others were falling apart and were 10 inches too long after double knotting. The new ones are10 inches shorter than the old ones. I got used to the extra length even though they caused lots of problems for me for several years. They had to fall clear apart before I could see clear to make the change. It took getting mad at myself and pulling the old laces out and throwing them away so that I had no choice. The old laces did not put up a struggle, try to reverse my decision or even look back. I checked. They did not even care. Yet, even now, I don't have a confident feeling, since I have not put on the boots with the new laces to walk and work in. What do you make of this?


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

You have PTSD...Post Traumatic Shoelace Disorder.


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## bryncalyn (Jan 7, 2013)

See, that is my problem. I love going barefoot. Sigh


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

We have a dog who we call Speed bump. I cannot count the number of times I have stepped over her and stubbed my toe or lost my balance. She is a big girl. Now I just tell her to get up and move! She sleeps 22 hours a day so I don't feel guilty about disturbing her.

My friend just had her first meeting with a counsellor last week and was just sick about going - tried to back out. She has similar problems as you have written about. Afterwards she was surprised at how easy it had been. Hope the same holds true for you. Best wishes.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Thanks. I had it in my head that the appointment was at 1:30, but they called to confirm today and it is in the morning at 11:45. YIKES...sooner than I thought!

And my DIL called today and I may be headed to AL tomorrow evening. It's been 17 months since my grandbaby was born and DIL was charged with child endangerment. Today she gets a call that her trial date is Friday...they gave her TWO days notice! I asked her if she would pass a drug test and you can guess the answer...which is why I need to be there in case the baby is placed in my custody again.

SIGH...my stress level is never going to decrease.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Good luck tomorrow.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I think you will find tomorrow morning much easier than you expect.

I'm so sorry about your DGD--can you bring her to your house or won't they let you take her out of state?


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

This time I will be allowed to bring her to my house...I'll have full permanent custody.

I hope that it doesn't happen. She is so bonded to her Mama and Papa and they do take good care of her. She's very healthy, very smart and very happy.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> This time I will be allowed to bring her to my house...I'll have full permanent custody.
> 
> I hope that it doesn't happen. She is so bonded to her Mama and Papa and they do take good care of her. She's very healthy, very smart and very happy.


Take it one issue at a time. First, is the appointment which will be easier than you realize. Then, there is the trip. Don't get into the "what if" mode. Take every issue as it arises..not before!

IMHO, RL, you're a very strong person. You have reserves of strength that you haven't even seen yet!


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Thanks Ardie. People tell me that all the time, but I sure don't feel strong on the inside!

I am hoping DIL's attorney is able to get the charge dropped. She thinks she has a good chance of doing so since DIL has good reports from DHR and the Healthy Families Program (they visit once a week to offer parenting guidance). If the charge is dropped all DIL will have to do is pay court costs...which the attorney said would be $30-$50.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> This time I will be allowed to bring her to my house...I'll have full permanent custody.
> 
> I hope that it doesn't happen. She is so bonded to her Mama and Papa and they do take good care of her. She's very healthy, very smart and very happy.


I hope things work out well on Friday. And I think the 2 days is just for cases such as this not to be able to fake being clear on the drug tests.  But, I'm happy that she's happy and bonded with them.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Raven, I just read 5 pages of this and I did see some of myself in your situation. My husband has issues over humanizing the dogs just like yours, to a much lesser degree, and in the past it has been the one source of friction in our otherwise great marriage. I know exactly what you mean when you say you feel like a slave to them when hubby wants them in the house and in the beds 24/7 despite the fact that they have acres to run and play on.

It is not fair to you to be used as a slave, staying home each day being forced to clean up after 20 dogs all day. I have a hard time just keeping up 3 dogs in the house when they are inside all winter. This is both depressing and mind-numbing work. The other issue of having dog hair all over everything constantly is enough to make a person want to explode. With 3 dogs, I got it all over the washer and dryers, all over the floors, bed sheets, walls, etc. The cleaning NEVER ends. Each day you wake up knowing that you have an avalanche of dog work hanging over your head, that must be done. It is tiring, tedious, and monotonous work. This is not a situation that is conducive to getting better and overcoming depression and panic.

When I got tired of DH insisting all 3 dogs sleep in bed, I simply left the bedroom and moved myself to my own space where I could relax on clean sheets in peace without dog hair getting stuck all over me. Eventually he decided that sleeping with me was more fun, and he followed me to the other room and allowed the dogs to have their own room and bed. You must build kennels and outdoor shelters away from the house where you can secure the dogs when you want to leave the house, or need a break! This area must be away from the house so they are not whining and scratching at the doors to get back in, since your DH has trained them to get what they want and be with you at all times.

-Develop some strict boundaries and rules for the dogs. You are in charge, not them and your dh!

-Get out and get some exercise. It will help immensely with both depression and hormones.

-Take some sort of class outside of the home once a week. It doesn't have to be stressful or socially demanding. A quiet art class even, will help direct your mind into a more relaxed and quiet place.

Good luck and hang in there!


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Thank you Haven. I would love to just be able to go into my sewing room and paint or sew for hours on end...get lost in it, you know? The way things are right now I can't do that unless hubby is home and then he wants me in the room with him...even if he's playing computer games!

My one outlet is going to Goodwill on Saturday and hanging out there for a couple hours (or more). Hubby always calls and asks where I am though, which ruins it. The cashier told me the other day I should start turning my phone off or leave it in the truck so I can have some peace and quiet while I'm in there!


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> Thank you Haven. I would love to just be able to go into my sewing room and paint or sew for hours on end...get lost in it, you know? The way things are right now I can't do that unless hubby is home and then he wants me in the room with him...even if he's playing computer games!
> 
> My one outlet is going to Goodwill on Saturday and hanging out there for a couple hours (or more). Hubby always calls and asks where I am though, which ruins it. The cashier told me the other day I should start turning my phone off or leave it in the truck so I can have some peace and quiet while I'm in there!



I don't know what to tell you, I hope counseling goes well today and you gain some insight that will be useful in working out your situation.

I am with the cashier though, turn the phone off. Everyone deserves some peace and quiet.


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## bryncalyn (Jan 7, 2013)

Good luck with the counseling today. 

If your dil is taking drugs she is not providing for the baby as she should. I have 2 points on that. 

1) my cousins do that and their kids are messed up physically and emotionally. To the point that one of them can't remember day to day events and she is 6 years old. They don't physically abuse them, just neglect them because they are drugged up. 

2) almost a year ago there was a toddler walking in our neighborhood at 9 pm. The cops came and were knocking on doors of all the people who had little ones. Ours were tucked snug in bed. The baby was from the subdivision across the street (a large subdivision) and crossed a road where people drive more than 45 mph, and was just wandering in our neighborhood. You certainly don't want that for your grandchild. You want to know that they are safe and secure. It wasn't a freak accident. The policeman was definitely irritated that it was a certain family and that this has happened several times before. The policeman also said that drugs were involved. 

So, even though it is more on you may be it is best for the child to be in a home where drugs aren't an issue. Also may help your husband know what it is like to raise a little one since he is the bachelor husband.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> Thank you Haven. I would love to just be able to go into my sewing room and paint or sew for hours on end...get lost in it, you know? The way things are right now I can't do that unless hubby is home and then he wants me in the room with him...even if he's playing computer games!
> 
> My one outlet is going to Goodwill on Saturday and hanging out there for a couple hours (or more). Hubby always calls and asks where I am though, which ruins it. The cashier told me the other day I should start turning my phone off or leave it in the truck so I can have some peace and quiet while I'm in there!


Sweetie, when your DH wants you in a room with him even if he is on the computer, tell him what he wants and what he gets are two different things! :drum: If he pouts...so what!?


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## mamita (May 19, 2008)

raven, you need a girls weekend away with Ardie and me. by the time you got home, you'd tell that man no once in a while. not like anyone ever has to be nasty and mean, but to just say NO. then take care of yourself once in a while. he'll be fine. even if he got all crabby butt, he'll get over it. lol


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

mamita said:


> raven, you need a girls weekend away with Ardie and me. by the time you got home, you'd tell that man no once in a while. not like anyone ever has to be nasty and mean, but to just say NO. then take care of yourself once in a while. he'll be fine. even if he got all crabby butt, he'll get over it. lol


If that weekend includes good looking young cabana boys, serving drinkies, I'm all for it! :bouncy: :spinsmiley:

Oh, RL, when he phones you at Goodwill, tell him you're at a bar, dancing on a table!


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## mamita (May 19, 2008)

Ardie/WI said:


> If that weekend includes good looking young cabana boys, serving drinkies, I'm all for it! :bouncy: :spinsmiley:


 is there any other kind?


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

Ravenlost said:


> I would love to just be able to go into my sewing room and paint or sew for hours on end...get lost in it, you know? The way things are right now I can't do that unless hubby is home and then he wants me in the room with him...even if he's playing computer games!


You say that as if it matters what your husband wants AT ALL TIMES. Of course it matters, but not at your expense. If YOU want to sacrifice your craft time to keep him company while he plays computer games, then you must be ok with it. If not, then, why do you feel you have to honor unreasonable demands that make you unhappy?



> My one outlet is going to Goodwill on Saturday and hanging out there for a couple hours (or more). Hubby always calls and asks where I am though, which ruins it. The cashier told me the other day I should start turning my phone off or leave it in the truck so I can have some peace and quiet while I'm in there!


......sooooo, why don't you? It's only fair to warn him ahead of time, though, with a statement that you want some quiet time and won't have your phone on. If he gets angry, explain this is why you need the phone off, he is smothering you and you need to get away for a while so you can return to him happier than when you left!

Good luck with the counselling! New steps to a new you has started.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Ravenlost said:


> Thank you Haven. I would love to just be able to go into my sewing room and paint or sew for hours on end...get lost in it, you know? The way things are right now I can't do that unless hubby is home and then he wants me in the room with him...even if he's playing computer games!
> 
> My one outlet is going to Goodwill on Saturday and hanging out there for a couple hours (or more). Hubby always calls and asks where I am though, which ruins it. The cashier told me the other day I should start turning my phone off or leave it in the truck so I can have some peace and quiet while I'm in there!


I suspect that you have made yourself overly available, simply because you're a very nice lady but these are great examples of the patterns I mentioned. 

If hubby is playing computer games, try something like, 'while you're relaxing with your game, I'm going to catch up on some sewing' and go to the other room. 

When you go to Goodwill on Saturday, let him know where you're going and approximately how long you'll be but make a point of asking if he needs you to pick anything up because you'll be shutting off your phone for a while and follow through.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Oh, he knows where I am and he hates it. He did take me there for my birthday, but told me I only had 30 minutes to shop (I shopped for an hour though). On Saturday I tell him I don't know when I'll be back because I have a lot of things I want to do (farmer's market, Goodwill, grocery store, Dollar Tree sometimes, etc.). He calls, tells me to hurry home, I start getting panicky and he says to take my time. So, why does he even call and try to rush me? He knows it upsets me. Why can't he call, ask where I am and tell me to enjoy myself? 

UGH...he never wants me to go out of town to visit my family and wants me to rush when I have to do errands once a week. He is the one who decided someone has to be home with the animals at all times, unless he is here to put everyone up before we leave. He doesn't trust me to do it, which is why I am not supposed to go anywhere except on his off days (Friday and Saturday). And then he says that I'm never home to spend time with him! I am here 24/7 except for Saturday and then I'm usually gone from 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. He doesn't even get out of bed on Saturday until 10 or 11 a.m. and I am always here to see him off to work and serve him supper when he gets home from work. 

Yes, I do make myself overly available to everyone I love. I don't know how to be any other way. 

Anyway, the visit with the psychologist felt like a waste of time. I guess I was expecting to much for the first visit. Plus, his receptionist gave me HORRIBLE directions and I got lost and ended up being late for my appointment. By the time I got there I had a migraine (still do) and was fighting a panic attack. 

Basically all he told me was that when I feel a panic attack coming on I should go to my "happy place" (in my mind). I told him I didn't have a happy place! He thinks I should probably see a psychiatrist instead, but gave me a long questionnaire to fill out at home and I go back to see him in two weeks.

I will be headed to Alabama tonight. My son is a nervous wreck about his wife's court date tomorrow and wants me there in case the baby is turned over to me. I agree...I don't want her being held at DHR or in a foster home until I arrive. It will be best if I am already there should that happen. Keep your fingers crossed that all goes well tomorrow. It's going to be a difficult and stressful day.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost, enjoy the drive and TURN THE PHONE OFF! It is not safe to talk while driving, yes?

Instead check in with him when you stop.It is more peaceful and safer both!


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## pamda (Oct 14, 2004)

Good grief! I haven't said anything about this so far, but you are in my mind and heart all the time. We don't know each other but I love you like a sister, and you are breaking my heart. It isn't you who has a problem, do you not recognize this? And when you do, you are going to be so amazed! How do you feel when you are away from home and you haven't thought about the hubs, the dogs and all the rest? I can tell you ("cause I am living it) It Is Awesome! It feels so good, doesn't it? I don't have panic attacks, I don't have chest pain I laugh and I sing, when I am not home, when mine is gone etc. It is time to make some hard, heart breaking decisions. For you and the grand-girl. She is the one who matter most right now. I am praying as you travel tonight, lighting a candle and sending glitter filled wishes for peace and happiness for you.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Thank you pamda. And yes, when I am not home (and not at my son's house) I feel rested. It's so peaceful to spend a few days at my mom's house. I sleep so good there and physically feel much better.

Terri...hubby doesn't call me when I'm driving as he doesn't believe in driving and talking on the phone. When I go somewhere I call him when I arrive. Also, he knows that when I'm driving I have the radio (or a CD) playing so loud I can't hear my phone.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

GOOD FOR YOU! Take care of you. Huggs.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I hope things work out for the best tomorrow---we will keep you in our prayers.


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## CathyGo (Apr 26, 2013)

Would it be possible for you to text him for things like letting him know where you are? That way he doesn't get the chance to pull at you. 

You need to set some boundaries to his controlling behavior but I know that's much easier said than done. Good luck and enjoy your time away.


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## mamita (May 19, 2008)

just thinking of you today, raven. sending massive HUGS!!!!!!!!!!


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I'm thinking of you and everyone that you are taking care of today.

I hope things here in AL, go better for the little family than you're expecting.

Take care of yourself, too. That is important.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Well, I'm home. Got two hours of sleep last night, then court with my DIL (my son stayed home with the baby). DIL lucked out. The prosecutor offered a deal...if she stays in the Healthy Families program for six more months and continues to do well, they will drop the charges. She loves the program and really likes her case worker and told the prosecutor she plans to stay in the program until Coraline starts kindergarten.

We went out for lunch afterwards and Coraline (my grandbaby) was such a sweetie. She is such a happy loving little girl. I got lots of hugs and kisses from her while I was there (as did her mama, papa and cats...LOL). 

Then I went to my mom's and ended up taking an hour and a half nap. If I hadn't done that I would not have been able to drive home. Right now I can barely keep my eyes open so am headed to bed. It's been a very long 24 hours.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I'm glad things worked out the way you hoped. Now time to work on you!


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Just a reminder: it isn't about changing the way the hubby behaves (only he can choose that) but changing how you react to him.

Why can't he do this or that? Who knows, who cares, what matters is what you can change to make yourself happier.

Keep the phone on at the store and be upset that he doesn't say what you want him to say when he calls, or turn it off and enjoy life. The choice is yours.

Praying for ya!


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## Grandmotherbear (May 15, 2002)

Glad that things worked out the way you want w/dgbaby. Get some rest. 
I've been worried that you told your counselor you had no happy place. I hope you can remember some where that you were happy, and you'll be able to remember a happy place and maybe find one again.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

He told me to make one up.


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## CathyGo (Apr 26, 2013)

"Find your happy place"  Probably the most meaningless and insulting advice you can give somebody having problems if you're going to just tell them to "make one up". 

I've used self hypnosis/ guided meditation recordings to gradually develop a sense of what my mind actually feels like completely "wound down" but it took a few weeks before I even started to get my racing/spiraling thoughts under control. If you're willing to try something like that I suggest looking up Steven Luzern. His recordings are to the point and effective. 

This one is only 10 minutes [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ld_ykgbuzA[/ame] 



Everybody has a different moment where their brain will finally just chill and let go. Hot bath? Music? Whatever works for you to capture that feeling of peace and calm. 

I do finally have a "happy place" but it took a lot of effort to construct it so that I could visit it. That's something these counselors seem to rarely understand.


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## pamda (Oct 14, 2004)

I went for a yearly check-up once and my BP was so high that everyone panicked. They turned the lights down and put some really nice soft music on to see if it helped. The nurse told me to go to my happy place..ya right. I told her I did not remember having one ever. She said to make one up. I could not for the life of me know how. It is not as easy as it sounds. Good thing is I have learned how to imagine a happy place for those times I need one..it took a lot of practice but it's there.


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## Mid Tn Mama (May 11, 2002)

pamda said:


> The nurse told me to go to my happy place..ya right. I told her I did not remember having one ever. She said to make one up. I could not for the life of me know how. It is not as easy as it sounds. Good thing is I have learned how to imagine a happy place for those times I need one..it took a lot of practice but it's there.


This is very important! Studies have shown that visualization (seeing your happy place) and deep breathing help TREMENDOUSLY

BUT: you must practice this regularly--like every day for it to have the effect you want when you want it.

You may think that's weird, but I have a friend who is a major league baseball player and they practice this so they can be focused and calm in the game! I think their program is 4-4-4 or something like that. Four slow breaths-for the count of four-four times. Anyway, they pay sports trainers big bucks and there are literally millions hanging on peak performance. Why not start practicing. I found that it DOES work.


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## Mid Tn Mama (May 11, 2002)

CathyGo said:


> "Find your happy place"  Probably the most meaningless and insulting advice you can give somebody having problems if you're going to just tell them to "make one up".
> 
> I do finally have a "happy place" but it took a lot of effort to construct it so that I could visit it. That's something these counselors seem to rarely understand.


This is in response to what Cathy and Raven have said about not having a "happy place"

Raven, because you are so unhappy now it seems impossible to imagine "happy." But at some time in your life you found calm and enjoyment, even if only for a few moments. It could be the image of yourself sewing or it could be the image of yourself sitting on the beach in the sun enjoying the waves. You might have to imagine another time in your life when you did something you truly enjoyed that was relaxing. It is a different memory for everyone. But studies show that if you can visualize that memory while breathing it does help.

But it takes practice--think a couple months of everyday practice.

I no longer listen to the news on the way to work. My work can be stressful, so I listen to soft music on the way. It really does help.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> He told me to make one up.


Blunt as I am, I'd have probably told him where to put it!!!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Creating a happy place isnt always easy, but it does seem to be something that needs to be done. It is pretty easy for me, as I have such a place, right here on my farm. Sitting on the creek bank listening to the water, watching the butterflies has always soothed my jangled nerves when lifes stresses begin to pile up on me. I am certain there is someplace, somewhere, in the back of their minds that every one can find for themselves if they give it the effort required. For me its that creek bank, which was easy coz I spent quite a bit of time actually there. Some folks may not have anyplace yet, and they have to create it from scratch. That would be a bit tougher for sure, but the good Lord gave us some pretty incredible powers, we just need to figure out how to use them. Hoping you find your happy place soon, and can get yourself into a place where you are indeed happy.... with reality as well as imagined.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

How to:

http://andrewwargo.com/blog/mental-escape/


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

You totally have a happy place, your just too stressed to see it. It's in that grand-babies eyes and smile. That's a happy place. You can make it a strong happy place too. Each day, look for something good to put in that happy place. If your off to do chores and you see a bee or butterfly, stop and really look at it. A flower going someplace unexpected, stop and look at it. An old married couple still holding hands, a mama kissing her baby, a time you did something special just you and your dad etc. These are the one second long memories that make up a happy place. 
Keep a picture of your grand baby with you. Just her, no others in the picture! It will help with memory recall until you can do it on your own. Then one day, it will be an automatic response to a stressful day.


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## pamda (Oct 14, 2004)

Mid Tn Mama said:


> This is very important! Studies have shown that visualization (seeing your happy place) and deep breathing help TREMENDOUSLY
> 
> BUT: you must practice this regularly--like every day for it to have the effect you want when you want it.
> 
> You may think that's weird, but I have a friend who is a major league baseball player and they practice this so they can be focused and calm in the game! I think their program is 4-4-4 or something like that. Four slow breaths-for the count of four-four times. Anyway, they pay sports trainers big bucks and there are literally millions hanging on peak performance. Why not start practicing. I found that it DOES work.


 I don't think it's weird. I think it was weird that I could not think of one place that makes me happy. I think stress has so much to do with it, and it is so important to find that place. I did find it, it took hours of self work, and was right in front of my nose (the coast of Washington..lol)


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> He told me to make one up.


I visualize sunlight, green grass with little flowers in it, and butterflies. I know it is out there, in many different areas. Remembering the sunlight first makes remembering the rest of it easier.

For me it helps, because it reminds me that no matter how harried things are, it is just a spot problem. There is sanity out there, I just have to get through this stuff first.


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## Grandmotherbear (May 15, 2002)

I lost my happy place briefly in my first marriage and that was when I was considering suicide. All the rest of my life I've had my parents' unfinished cabin on the Chesapeake as my happy place. After coming to Florida it was any wooded spot. My mother came by our lake cabin (retirement home-in waiting) and said she could feel why it was so important to me- felt just like our beach house on the Chesapeake back in the 50s-60s.
I have read that many unhappy kibbutzniks can't leave their commune even if they want to- because of their bonding so strongly to a particular place or view on it. Much easier to carry it in your memories, I think...
Please look about you for something that makes you happy..even driving alone thru the night, I did many times as a teenager, can be a happy place to remember and strengthen you.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Exactly Terri...I have so much stuff to get through first it feels like the last thing I need to do is make up some imaginary happy place. 

Every time I start thinking about a happy place, or time/event, in my life something sad about that time creeps in and I've lost the whole "happy" concept that I was trying to reach.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost - choose one of the cabins or old houses from my roaming and imagine being there. No connections to anything that causes uptight or stress in you.

I'll share my pretending to be at one or two of them, with you.


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> He told me to make one up.





Ravenlost said:


> Exactly Terri...I have so much stuff to get through first it feels like the last thing I need to do is make up some imaginary happy place.
> 
> Every time I start thinking about a happy place, or time/event, in my life something sad about that time creeps in and I've lost the whole "happy" concept that I was trying to reach.


Then your happy place is in the future. 

Have you ever had aroma-theraypy or a massage? Maybe this could be a happy place to experience. Are you getting the mega doses of vitamin D now?

Let the husband spend an extra day with the dogs, and find a massage therapist who can use some nice oils and aromas on you!


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Before we tar and feather the therapist, it does sound like RL may have been "countering" and he put a stop to it in the session.

Countering is what you call it when you offer alternative actions that might improve the patient's life and they "counter" by telling why they can't do it.

Person tells therapist they hate being interrupted at work and therapist says turn the phone off. Person replies with 16 reasons why they cannot do that--countering.

Person tells therapist relationship problem with a boyfriend. Therapist counsels to think whether you would be happier if you broke up. Patient gives 13 reasons why they could never do that--countering.

Patient hates local geographic location. Therapist suggest moving and gets 24 excuses not to move--countering.

In this case he gave standard relaxation suggesting of "going to your happy place" meaning remember and focus on a pleasant experience or place. Sounds like RL either countered or he thought she did. Surely there has been one nice place or experience she has encountered in her life. So yes, she has a "happy place". Telling her to make one up then was pretty standard in breaking down her countering.

RL, no excuses. There has been at least one thing you've seen that is pretty, or tasted good, or sounded good, or that you love seeing or experiencing. That is your "happy place." No countering. No "yes but this ruined it for me."

No countering.

This is part of that tough healing we talked about at the beginning of the thread. The therapist is SUPPOSED to challenge you to think differently, and if he is good, he will not tolerate "countering" because that is just a symptom of codependency.

Praying!


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

I'm gonna give this a shot! RL would this work as a happy place, for just a while?

From your story archive: 

The summer I turned seven my parents bought 56 acres that came with just about everything...mule, chickens, cats, wood cookstove, plows for the mule, etc. I can remember Daddy plowing with Shorty (the mule) and us kids walking behind dropping the seeds into the row. I loved the animals and it became my responsibility to feed the chickens and gather the eggs. The neighbor across the road even gave me a Banty chick for my seventh birthday. I named him Chirp Chirp and he was my constant companion...even sleeping in a box next to my bed at night.

That Fall my parents took me out of the city school and I started at the small rural school near our farm. It was wonderful! The classes were so small that there were two grades per room...when I was in 3rd grade there were 13 third-graders and 4 fourth-graders! Each room had a potbellied wood stove that kept us warm and toasty. 

I even got my picture in the paper for befriending a stray dog at school that I named Charlie. Every day after lunch the teacher would send me to the lunch room to get the scraps to feed Charlie. When Charlie had 13 puppies the newspaper came out and took my picture with her and the pups. When school ended that Spring the principal took Charlie home and the puppies were given to different students."

Somewhere in there , there has to be a memory to focus on.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

I've had massages before as treatment for Fibromyalgia. They hurt, but I felt so much better afterwards. 

I am sure I have some happy memories, but right now I need to learn how to not let the bad memories that are connected to those events creep in...something I'm really struggling with right now.

For example...I loved that country school and then my best friend died when we were eight years old. 

I loved taking care of Charlie and the 13 puppies, but then my mother would not let me bring any of them home which made me very sad.

Whenever I start thinking about a good time in the past something sad creeps in. I'm going to continue thinking about it though and trying to come up with something that is all happy and good.

And yes, I started the Vitamin D treatment this past Wednesday, so I've had two pills so far.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Good example of countering, RL. 

Make it an imaginary favorite place. On the planet Vulcan. Or at one of Angie's cabins.


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> I've had massages before as treatment for Fibromyalgia. They hurt, but I felt so much better afterwards.
> 
> I am sure I have some happy memories, but right now I need to learn how to not let the bad memories that are connected to those events creep in...something I'm really struggling with right now.
> 
> ...


I knew it went south when Kayleen passed RL.Wish I could change it, or at least erase it. Glad you are getting the D levels up again.

It just seemed like your first animal of you own, or planting seeds behind Daddy and Shorty might be a place you could _allow yourself to dwell..


_


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## SageLady (Jun 10, 2008)

I had alcoholic abusive parents, but I can always remember a happy place despite my terrible childhood,those days where I just laid on my back when I was 8 or 9 years old in the backyard with the wind blowing through my hair, watching the big fluffy clouds from above roll by.Everyone has a good memory, a sweet place to go to... I know as a child my happy place was the only thing that got me through... My life has always been hard and stressful, but I learned to comfort myself a long time ago. I had to just to survive mentally...

Nature was always my refuge and still is to this day...

Ravenlost, have you ever been evaluated for Bipolar disorder? The reason I ask is because your responses on this entire thread are exactly the way my sister with Bipolar disorder reacts.... Especially the no happy place thing... She swears she has not one good memory in her life, but I know different - she was very happy on many occasions in her life, and was very much the doted on child in our family... She is always negative, always counters her therapist, and anyone that tries to help her. She always has a reason that she won't make a positive change in her life. She is her own worst enemy and yes, she is on medication. You remind me so much of her - the same attitude and responses she has...


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## cwgrl23 (Feb 19, 2004)

Few ideas to help you find that happy place. 

1. Take Angie up on her offer and go "stay" at one of the lovely cabins that she has posted pictures of. Plan your vacation but in doing so you can *not *think about how anybody else is going to get along. You only pack the things that make you happy like a super soft blanket. Spend five minutes in the morning picking out your favorite stuff to pack. Then in the afternoon, spend five minutes figuring out the prettiest way to get there. Take five minutes and imagine what fun little shops you will discover on your way to Angie's. Oh, and your favorite car has been provided as well as all expenses including "fun money". So drive your favorite car, with your favorite clothes, along your favorite route to a fun new place. Don't try and plan to fast, take your time and enjoy every step, five minutes at a time. Dogs getting on your nerves? Go lock yourself in the bathroom for five minutes and plan what your first meal out will be. By doing little steps throughout the day, you can help control that evil monster - stress!

2. You mentioned alot of happy memories are quickly followed by not so happy memories. So pic your favorite pic of GD that you just posted of her and the kitty. Focus only one the one second of history that is captured in that moment. Don't think about her parents or anything else going on. Simply focus on the picture. You can smell that sweet smell only sleeping babies have. You can hear the little noises the kitty is making in his dream. Just hold on tight to that one happy moment and focus only on that. Most of us have learned to "tune out" the kids' tv show or a spouse snoring. The trucks going down the road are no longer heard at night because they are tuned out. So create yourself a new TV Station. It is K + GD initials. This station has strict programming rules. Only the happy part of memories are allowed in. So to start your station, take the three seconds captured of GD & kitty sleeping and put it in your station. They play none stop on this station. No commercials. No outside interference. Over time, you will discover more happy memories to add to your station. Don't try and find big chunks of time. A second is all you need! 

3. Ok, this one is a bit off the wall but it might help. When I was growing up, I had a bad temper. Everything made me mad and I stayed mad. My dad told me that anger was just wasted energy. He gave me a small ax and told me to go take my frustrations out on the dead trees in the grove. I could quit when I was calm. I chopped a lot of wood that summer. We stayed nice warm with wood heat that winter. I can't do that physical stuff anymore due to my accident. So I have found other ways to vent frustration. Perhaps sewing a representation of the dogs and then stabbing it with pins would help. You aren't actually trying to do harm to them. You just need a way to vent your frustration with them.

Start small with your happy place. Got to walk before you can run. Pick a second in time. Focus only on that one second. Everything else is background noise that can be tuned out!

Keep up the good work! This is not an easy road but you are on your way to a better life for you and those you love. Remind me some time to tell you how I helped a friend learn how to stand up for herself. Pain meds kicking in so I am going to sleep. 

Just know that there are lots of us out there cheering for you!

Carrie in SD


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

And know this: changing from a negative mindset/thought pattern to a positive one is really hard work, harder than childbirth!

But it can be done!


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> Anyway, the visit with the psychologist felt like a waste of time. I guess I was expecting to much for the first visit. Plus, his receptionist gave me HORRIBLE directions and I got lost and ended up being late for my appointment. By the time I got there I had a migraine (still do) and was fighting a panic attack.


Ravenlost, this is why he spoke to you about a "Happy place". If a person is fighting a panic attack there is not much point to address causes of the panic attack, because the person is too stressed out to give deep thought.

So, instead the psychologist tried to address coping skills and perhaps next time the two of you can discuss causes and what to do about them.

In the meantime,I ALSO do not think about happy times in my past because my grandfather did die and the stables did close down and.... you get the drift.

Then again, nature has always relaxed me, and so my own "happy place" is sunlight and grass and flowers and butterflies. Sometimes a barefoot child shows up to run through it and sometimes she does not. Either way it helps me to be centered because places like that exist, and it is out there, and sometimes I see it when I am driving.

My "happy place" reminds me that there is sanity out there: it is just not with me while I am sorting out some problem that is upsetting me. It helps me to know that it is out there.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Thanks everyone. A lot of good suggestions that I will take and use.

Sagelady, no, I've never been tested for Bipolar Disorder. Both my kids have it (son much more severe than my daughter) and I've always assumed they got it from their crazy dad's side of the family. Mental illness runs deep on that side.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

If you don't have a happy place or haven't found one yet then play or sing a happy song. After some very severe trauma I had no happy place left to go to so when I would start to experience panic or depression I would sing. Any song will do from nursery rhymes to hymns to top of the pops. Patsy Cline's "I fall to Pieces" is not only soothing but always made me laugh in the end.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Odka54ygk[/ame]


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Mine would be...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU[/ame]

or this...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU615FaODCg[/ame]


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

When I was 13 I was going to marry Davy Jones. Love Daydream Believer.

Another song I love - but have difficulty singing but when I am in panic mode I don't care! - is Faith of the Heart. Faith of the heart, strength of the soul, no one is going to bend or break me.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8OpsPok6iQ[/ame]


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

RL, one of the most useful things I ever learned in family therapy was to rewrite or rehear an incident from another point of view. It is just so we can make new ruts in our thinking instead of following the old ones.

So let me try a stab at rewriting your first session from the therapist point of view. May not be accurate, but just give it a think.

"She showed up late. Wonder why? Was she trying to tell me she doesn't want to do this, or thinks it won't work? Was it a defense mechanism or a control mechanism?

Either way, when I pushed her on it she vapor locked with a panic attack. How convenient for her. How could the old mean therapist expect her to listen and try something new when she felt that awful? I pushed her about it and she tried to project the blame on to my receptionist. I mean, what kind of "adult" doesn't arrive early for the first session to do the paperwork? And what kind of "adult" doesn't use mapquest or a cellphone or a map or a garmin and check the route before she left home?

Boy oh boy, she has an excuse for not doing one blamed thing I suggest. And I bet then she goes and blabs all over the internet how therapy didn't work for her and I didn't do anything.

Patients like her are enough to drive a man to see a shrink!

 Praying!


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

nodak3, if that was what he was thinking then I would never go back to him. 

Different topic...hubby hurt my feelings twice this morning.

1. During breakfast I deleted some shows I'd saved on TIVO that were reruns that I'd already seen. Told hubby and he said, "Good. Nobody wants to watch that show any way."

2. He'd left for work, but called to ask if two of our dogs were separated (they fight sometimes). I told him no, but they were fine. He said, "They need to be separated when nobody is home."

So, I'm nobody to him? Should I have been hurt by these comments, or am I being overly sensitive?


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## pamda (Oct 14, 2004)

I would be hurt by the last statement, but not the first. And my reply to the first would have been, if no one wants to watch it, why is it on? Not to argue but to hopefully make him think. To the second statement I would have said something really rude I'm afraid..cause I would have been a bit ticked that he called to say anything about it at all. Like don't you have much more important things to do than answer the phone for someone so sorry that he calls to check on dogs and how you care for them, but not to see how you might be? Sorry you have to deal with so much on such a nice day. It really must be a day for men and tier hang ups, mines being a pain too. I let him insult me and hurt my feelings, then realized I was giving away my power, and deciced to just put it out of my mind for awhile. And my son (who lives here )is being his normal bi-polar fun self (not). Wish we lived closer, we could go have a cold coffee or what ever. Girl talk would be a welcome break.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

I felt like he was belittling me with the first statement. He saves way more shows than I do on TIVO...then acts like the few I enjoy are a waste of time.

As to the second comment, I told him I was home and I was NOT a nobody. 

As for calling about the dogs...I appreciate him calling and letting me know if he didn't put certain dogs up. It upsets me terribly if there's a dog fight when I am home alone. 

Oh heavens, I feel for you having to deal with your son...know exactly what you mean! Yes, would be nice to have some girl talk over an iced coffee!


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## lenii (Dec 31, 2005)

Ravenlost said:


> Exactly Terri...I have so much stuff to get through first it feels like the last thing I need to do is make up some imaginary happy place.
> 
> Every time I start thinking about a happy place, or time/event, in my life something sad about that time creeps in and I've lost the whole "happy" concept that I was trying to reach.


*
You have to listen to the councelor, instead of trying your own way.(as dr. phil would say.......)How is that working for you????*..don't just say, first I have to do this or that. Listen to a professional,please..


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Ravenlost said:


> nodak3, if that was what he was thinking then I would never go back to him.
> 
> Different topic...hubby hurt my feelings twice this morning.
> 
> ...


I pick "B", you are being overly sensitive. Both of those comments in that context were of a positive nature. The first, was congratulating you on a job well done, the second was just a helpful reminder to you in the event that you might leave the house. I see nothing derogatory nor belittling in either comment. I think it may be a guy/gal thing, my Yvonne has been known to get upset with me, or her feelings hurt over a comment I used to make... "you worry way too much about all the wrong things".


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## puddlejumper007 (Jan 12, 2008)

rl, if you are fixing your room up stairs, becareful of dogs trying to beat you up and down them, good way to fall, been there done that...baby gate sounds like a must.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> nodak3, if that was what he was thinking then I would never go back to him.
> 
> Different topic...hubby hurt my feelings twice this morning.
> 
> ...


You may being overly sensitive.

Sometimes, DH says the most asinine things to me similar to that. I would get all hurt and feeling unloved. Then, I came to realize that when he does that, his mouth has disconnected from his brain. He simply ISN'T thinking! Perhaps, he has a work related issue. I did learn to call him on it, point out that he is being a jerk and to knock it off!


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

Ardie/WI said:


> You may being overly sensitive.
> 
> Sometimes, DH says the most asinine things to me similar to that. I would get all hurt and feeling unloved. Then, I came to realize that when he does that, his mouth has disconnected from his brain. He simply ISN'T thinking! Perhaps, he has a work related issue. I did learn to call him on it, point out that he is being a jerk and to knock it off!



Or as Ann said, He's just being a " Big Ole LUNK", "Standard Grumpy Husband".


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

puddlejumper007 said:


> rl, if you are fixing your room up stairs, becareful of dogs trying to beat you up and down them, good way to fall, been there done that...baby gate sounds like a must.


I try to be careful going up and down the stairs as the dogs have knocked me down more than once. I bought two nice baby gates...the kind that open like a gate...but hubby doesn't want them up. He doesn't like the idea of blocking his dogs from where they want to go. If I can find where he put them, I think I'll try to install them myself. Our crippled dog, Tom, is getting old and is having a more difficult time coming up the stairs at night. A gate would keep him from trying (he fell the other night on the stairs).


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

I might be wrong and have been lots of times but i would get me a nice travel trailer and park it next to the house and move in it .I also would have the hitch pointed toward the road just in case i got a hankering to travel .


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

LOL...I've threatened many times that I was going to move into the barn loft! It's much nicer there...no animals live in it.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> I try to be careful going up and down the stairs as the dogs have knocked me down more than once. I bought two nice baby gates...the kind that open like a gate...but hubby doesn't want them up. He doesn't like the idea of blocking his dogs from where they want to go. If I can find where he put them, I think I'll try to install them myself.* Our crippled dog, Tom, is getting old and is having a more difficult time coming up the stairs at night. A gate would keep him from trying (he fell the other night on the stairs*).


I bolded the selling point to hubby for the gates. But the person I was when married would have not been surprised with a hubby saying those things; but the person I am now would not put up with that. 

You have to live there, and you did make a commitment at the wedding ceremony, BUT SO DID HE! Remember you are to be as one, and you are not a trinty of types (man, woman, dogs). 

I don't mean to make you feel worse, but I know only you can decide when enough of being so far down the chain of importance, and nothing you do is as important as something he decides to do - to know when enough is enough.

I feel for you. Now I'll back off. 
I wish you well, and to know when enough is enough.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Ravenlost said:


> LOL...I've threatened many times that I was going to move into the barn loft! It's much nicer there...no animals live in it.


Sometimes one has to do what they have to for their sanity and or piece of mind .But that barn would be to stationary for my liking :bow:

I have read every post in this thread and know sometimes i make to fast of a post so i have gave this thread lots of thought .I believe you know only you can help you and the longer you wait the harder it is going to be to do .

As Red Green says i'm pulling for you :bow:


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Thanks!


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Ardie--you missed the point! The point is anytime any situation occurs, different people will see it through different lenses. I tried to write the "therapists point of view" as if Ravenlost was the therapist.

But some of it WAS pretty accurate in that when we are consistently shooting ourselves in the foot, it isn't ALWAYS the other person's fault.

And a good therapist will look at what we do, not what we say. If we really want help we will leave early, get there on time on our own, do whatever it takes to change things.

I suspect RL is still stuck in stage one of therapy: wanting not to change how she thinks/feels/acts and wanting the therapist to tell her how to change dh, the dogs, and other people so she gets different results.

So she can expect her therapist to cut through the bull hockey, blaming, excuse making, etc pretty bluntly. Then if she is ready to change, therapy will work wonders.

And if she just wants to do the same things but get different results? One definition of insanity.


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## bryncalyn (Jan 7, 2013)

Ravenlost said:


> Anyway, the visit with the psychologist felt like a waste of time. I guess I was expecting to much for the first visit. Plus, his receptionist gave me HORRIBLE directions and I got lost and ended up being late for my appointment. By the time I got there I had a migraine (still do) and was fighting a panic attack.


Hehehe - I feel your pain on that one. The first time I was pregnant my mom drove me to the ob/gyns office. It was a 4 lane highway with a turn lane in the middle. She was driving in the left lane, gps was telling us where to go, she was driving a whopping 20 mph. Yeah. My blood pressure was up. I was in the process of getting scolded for that by the nurse when I told her the series of events. She said that next time I should drive and my bp would be down.

Here is hoping your 2nd visit goes A LOT better!!


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## bryncalyn (Jan 7, 2013)

Ravenlost said:


> He told me to make one up.


I know this is kinda off the wall and silly but here it goes. You know how at some of the plant nurseries they have "fairy gardens" with tiny plants, tiny gravel, tiny little gnomes, statues, etc.??? Could making something like that become your imaginary happy place? You know - someplace to dream about going to? Just a thought .....

http://www.miniature-gardens.com/product/garden-kit.html
http://minigardener.wordpress.com/2011/11/04/product-review-the-fiddlehead-fairy-garden-kit/
http://chiotsrun.com/2011/10/26/fairy-gardening/
http://mommypoppins.com/ny-kids/make-a-fairy-or-dragon-garden
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/home_and_garden/2013/03/10/1-small-sites-suit-sprites.html

Well, you get the idea. It doesn't need to be from a kit - you could search Goodwill for the items to make it.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

nodak3 said:


> Ardie--you missed the point! The point is anytime any situation occurs, different people will see it through different lenses.


This is so true! Its all about perceptions.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

nodak3 said:


> Ardie--you missed the point! The point is anytime any situation occurs, different people will see it through different lenses. I tried to write the "therapists point of view" as if Ravenlost was the therapist.
> 
> But some of it WAS pretty accurate in that when we are consistently shooting ourselves in the foot, it isn't ALWAYS the other person's fault.
> 
> ...


1. I did leave early. Before I left I had googled directions. The receptionist had given me directions that were totally incorrect. I told her I was coming in on 305 and she gave me directions as if I were coming in on 302. Then, when I realized I was lost and called she couldn't figure out how to get me to the office. 

How can any of that be construed as my fault?

2. Well, duh...of course I'm in stage one of therapy. I've only met with the psychologist one time for 30 minutes.

3. If I just wanted to do the same things but get different results I would never have made any appointments with psychologists/therapists.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> 1. I did leave early. Before I left I had googled directions. The receptionist had given me directions that were totally incorrect. I told her I was coming in on 305 and she gave me directions as if I were coming in on 302. Then, when I realized I was lost and called she couldn't figure out how to get me to the office.
> 
> How can any of that be construed as my fault?
> 
> ...


Ardie>>>Standing up and applauding!!!!!!!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Ravenlost, I think that all anybody is trying to tell you is that the therapist is trying to help you get well and that is going to require trying to do things they way they suggested, just as you might follow and MD's directions to treat an injury or illness. 

As for your husband's comments, I've found the best way to deal with thoughtless comments from someone is to turn it back on them with a simple comment that makes them think about what they've said. 

I suspect that you're sensitive right now about his comments so I'm not sure either of the two mentioned were intended to make you feel bad but they did and that warrants a response. My ex father in law was the king of thoughtless comments and two favorites of responses were, 'did you intend to make me feel bad by saying that,' or 'what did you mean by that comment.' In the case of my father in law, I'm very sure his comments were intended to be hurtful but he did stop them and keep his thoughts to himself.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

wr said:


> Ravenlost, I think that all anybody is trying to tell you is that the therapist is trying to help you get well and that is going to require trying to do things they way they suggested, just as you might follow and MD's directions to treat an injury or illness.
> 
> As for your husband's comments, I've found the best way to deal with thoughtless comments from someone is to turn it back on them with a simple comment that makes them think about what they've said.
> 
> I suspect that you're sensitive right now about his comments so I'm not sure either of the two mentioned were intended to make you feel bad but they did and that warrants a response. My ex father in law was the king of thoughtless comments and two favorites of responses were, 'did you intend to make me feel bad by saying that,' or 'what did you mean by that comment.' In the case of my father in law, I'm very sure his comments were intended to be hurtful but he did stop them and keep his thoughts to himself.


My favorite come-back is what I sometimes post here:

"Well, aren't you just a big bubble of happiness and joy today!!!".


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Yes, I've given his comments a lot of thought and have come to the decision he didn't mean them the way I initially took them. So, that is now a non-issue for me.


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## Dorothea (May 10, 2004)

hope everything gets better for you,,why not find good homes for half of your animals ,,i understand it will be very hard for both you and your hubby,,but life will be a whole lot better,,,


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

He would never do that Dorothea...and I don't want to either. What we have to do is start taking them to the local shelter when we find them. They are doing a wonderful job finding homes for their animals and avoid putting them down if at all possible. 

Our number of dogs will be going down rapidly in the next few years. Over half of them are age five and up. We lost our oldest dog, Drake, to old age (heart) not very long ago. Tom is 11 years old and Molly is nine. Molly is really showing her age and Tom is crippled. 

Nope, they are here to stay for as long as they are alive.


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## pamda (Oct 14, 2004)

Molly is that old..think I remember when she came to the pack..wow...long time


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## modineg44 (Jun 25, 2002)

You know how at some of the plant nurseries they have "fairy gardens" with tiny plants, tiny gravel, tiny little gnomes, statues, etc.??? Could making something like that become your imaginary happy place? You know - someplace to dream about going to? Just a thought .....

http://www.miniature-gardens.com/product/garden-kit.html
http://minigardener.wordpress.com/2011/11/04/product-review-the-fiddlehead-fairy-garden-kit/
http://chiotsrun.com/2011/10/26/fairy-gardening/
http://mommypoppins.com/ny-kids/make-a-fairy-or-dragon-garden
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/home_and_garden/2013/03/10/1-small-sites-suit-sprites.html

```````````````````````````````````````````````````
This is a great idea. Thanks for the links. I just made a simple container garden for my hens & chicks with some pretty rocks & a few plastic items - a worm and a frog. Now I have a lot of new ideas. 

Nancy


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

pamda...it's going to be hard when we lose Molly. I saw her adorable baby photo online. She was at a rescue in Birmingham, AL. I drove all the way there to get her. My Daddy was dying of colon cancer at the time, but asked me to get him a puppy too if they had another one. I got Molly's sister for him, but he fell in love with Molly so I ended up bringing Bonnie home. When he became to ill to care for her, he asked me to take her home with me. I promised him I would take good care of her. Losing her is going to be like losing the last tangible part of my Daddy that I have in my life.

modineg44 and Nancy...I actually have an area on the side of our driveway that I started turning into a fairy garden this Spring. I even have a fairy garden section on Pinterest.


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## Brighton (Apr 14, 2013)

Ravenlost said:


> Losing her is going to be like losing the last tangible part of my Daddy that I have in my life.


No, YOU are the most tangible part of your Daddy you have left, would your Daddy want you to live like this??

Let the therapist help you, stop being a door mat, stand up for yourself and live, that is probably more of what your Daddy would want for you than how you are living now!


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost, my Daddy helped me build a cold frame. We did it ourselves.

It hurt when I destroyed what was left of the cold frame: nothing lasts forever and the lumber was starting to grow mushrooms! But, what he gave me that I will ALWAYS remember is the time we spent together and the skills that he taught me.

The tangible thing was not a cold frame: it was the skills and the love that he passed on. That is forever.


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## pamda (Oct 14, 2004)

Ravenlost said:


> pamda...it's going to be hard when we lose Molly. I saw her adorable baby photo online. She was at a rescue in Birmingham, AL. I drove all the way there to get her. My Daddy was dying of colon cancer at the time, but asked me to get him a puppy too if they had another one. I got Molly's sister for him, but he fell in love with Molly so I ended up bringing Bonnie home. When he became to ill to care for her, he asked me to take her home with me. I promised him I would take good care of her. Losing her is going to be like losing the last tangible part of my Daddy that I have in my life.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep..that's the dog (or dogs) I thought I remembered. And, yes it will be so hard to loose her, but remember, you gave her a great life. And a long one as dogs lives go. And she will be with your daddy when she goes. (yes, I do believe that). And if you stop and think, I bet there are so many other things you dad has left you.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

True...he gave me his middle name...his big hands and bigger soft heart. And he loved me very very much.


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## Grandmotherbear (May 15, 2002)

Ravenlost- perhaps you should consider keeping a journal?? I found that what therapy did for me was stimulate my thinking process and my mind would be "boiling" for 2-6 hours after leaving the therapist. Writing was very helpful.
My therapist told me when I started with her, at the battered women's shelter, to write a list of 10 good things about me. I could only think of 5, and in the interest of "fairness" listed 20 things I felt were wrong with me. Knowing what I do now, I must've been quite a professional challenge- as you will be to yours also.
Looking back on it from 30+ years later, the most valuable thing they did for me- and I couldn't verbalize it for 2 decades but it was there slowly suffusing my life- was help me to recognize I was /am worthy to be loved. Lots of what I went thru was because I didn't have that belief. But as time went by, I began to recognize I was _not _lower than a snake's belly, and I could accomplish-had accomplished- great thtings.
Good luck to you on your journey, many here are rooting for you!


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## mamita (May 19, 2008)

I love the journal idea. writing things down helps purge them out. just thinking of you today. hugs!


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

One of the really cool things about therapy is being challenged to see things differently.

Here's an example: Mom is tired and instead of cooking Sunday dinner, wants Dad to take the kids to the movies and order in a pizza. What she SAYS however is "Why don't you ever help with the kids and give me a chance to cook around here?" Dad HEARS "Take the kids outside and mudwrestle with them so I can get the chicken fried." So he does that, rolling his eyes good naturedly THINKING "What a gal I married--but she seems snippy today so I'll take the team out and really run them ragged so they are docile when we come in. She'll love that. I love her!" Mom SEES more laundry ahead for her to do and she is still stuck cooking. Now she is really steamed. What Johnny sees is dad roll his eyes after mom yelled at dad (note she did not yell) and ASSUMES mom hates dad, dad hates mom, and divorce is coming. He'll act out on that tomorrow in school. Jimmy only hears two things: mudwrestling, and after that fried chicken. He is one happy kid and off to a good start for the week.

Each member of the family heard, saw, and experienced exactly the same event. But each one brought their own personality and baggage to the event and each one perceives it differently.

A good therapist can help mom decide what she really wants and needs and voice THAT instead of expecting her husband to be a mind reader. Dad can learn to pick up a bit on non-verbal clues and if he is unsure, to ask mom EXACTLY what she needs instead of ASSUMING. The sourpuss pessimistic kid can learn that people who love each other can disagree and argue without it meaning the end of the relationship. And the happy kid can learn to be a bit more aware, and reinforced in being self soothing.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

nodak3 said:


> One of the really cool things about therapy is being challenged to see things differently.
> 
> Here's an example: Mom is tired and instead of cooking Sunday dinner, wants Dad to take the kids to the movies and order in a pizza. What she SAYS however is "Why don't you ever help with the kids and give me a chance to cook around here?" Dad HEARS "Take the kids outside and mudwrestle with them so I can get the chicken fried." So he does that, rolling his eyes good naturedly THINKING "What a gal I married--but she seems snippy today so I'll take the team out and really run them ragged so they are docile when we come in. She'll love that. I love her!" Mom SEES more laundry ahead for her to do and she is still stuck cooking. Now she is really steamed. What Johnny sees is dad roll his eyes after mom yelled at dad (note she did not yell) and ASSUMES mom hates dad, dad hates mom, and divorce is coming. He'll act out on that tomorrow in school. Jimmy only hears two things: mudwrestling, and after that fried chicken. He is one happy kid and off to a good start for the week.
> 
> ...


So what you are saying is that if mom had simply said "Honey, I am really pooped out, could you take the kids out to the movies and feed them a pizza tonight so I can have a little break and rest up?" the whole issue would have been resolved? I tend to think that would solve a whole messa problems, if folks would just speak plainly, and directly. It is usually pretty easy to say, and much easier to interpret than the often misinterpreted "coded" messages and subtle hints. I know for myself, and a whole bunch of other men that I am acquainted with, we have no problem doing things to please our wives, and enjoy doing so, if we could just figure out what it was they wanted! If you want us to fix supper, all ya gotta do is form the words, "would you cook tonight?".


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Yep, Yvonne's hubby, that is exactly what I'm saying.

And RL--I think you missed the point of the rewrite I did. The point is this: your perception of why you were late and what happened during the appointment may be very different from your doc's. By this point, also, your dh knows you are miserable but doesn't know how to fix it.

But a gentle challenge: the receptionist was not responsible to give you directions or to know how to get you there. What you are doing is called blame shifting. It takes a whole lot more mental energy to find someone else to blame than it just does to say "I got lost and was late." Don't ask me how I know!  Same thing with the doc: you've had how many years to get miserable? What could he possibly do in 1/2 session? He did offer a coping technique but you countered it.

And you do sound stuck in stage one. Don't take offense, that is normal. Most people try therapy several times and it fails because they are STUCK in stage one. Stage one means you expect your husband to change so you can be happy, or your life situation to change so you can be happy. Stage two--where progress starts--is when you give up trying or wishing or hoping or praying for THEM change and start changing YOU.

When one of my youngsters realized she was in an abusive marriage and needed help, the best advice her counselor gave her was this: it took ____ 40 years to become the man he is. He isn't looking to change. I can't change him, you can't change him, and we don't have the right to conspire to change him. Go home, and look carefully at him. If you love him and want to live with him EXACTLY AS HE IS, stay. If you don't, do him a favor, and leave. Hurt her feelings all to heck and gone, but today she is happy, stable, and remarried to a wonderful guy.

A couple of getting unstuck techniques I've been taught, which helped me, you might consider trying are: keep a gratitude journal. Every single day write down 5 pleasures you experienced that day. Also keep a gripe journal. Every single day write down 5 things that bummed you out, but don't stop there. By every single one of them write down what you did to stop it from happening again.

I'll give a typical day:

Gratitude: 1. sunrise was cool. 2. hot coffee 3. talked to daughter 4. comfortable clothing 5. NCIS was on.

Gripes: 1. Neighbor's noise kept me awake. Put fan in bedroom to mask the music. 2. DH didn't pick up the trash he made on the coffee table, a daily irritant. Removed coffee table, less to dust. 3. Tripped on dust ruffle on bed. Hemmed it up a bit. 4. Hospital billed us for checkup instead of insurance. Called and left message that I will happily pay AFTER I receive explanation of benefits from insurance, so they need to make sure it has been submitted. 5. ***** got the grapes and heading for corn. Called police for traps to eliminate them.

These two techniques help us begin to find a bit of good and hope in life, and also help us realize we have the power to change things.

With that under our mental belt, we are ready for the hard work of stage two. But hang in there! Stage one is easily the hardest, most insulting, most painful stage. All our defense mechanisms that AREN'T working have to be broken down so we can find healthy coping skills.


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## AdventurousOne (Jul 6, 2013)

I realize this is a bit late for a response, but I have to say something on this topic. one of the reasons you are asked to go to outpatient treatment many times a week and for many hours, is to get you out of your environment. When you are out of there, and yes it is uncomfortable, but only for a short time. After a week you should feel at home with the staff and other patients. You should start to feel the group and facility as a safe place where people care, and share their experiences, and how as a group you can work through your attacks to better understand and cope with how stress and personal situations effect you. Only then can you take the next step to a better life, but because of this first step, you will have many friends that will support you and help you when you need them, because they have been through it. I know it is late in the game, but maybe it will help others who are in the same place.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Good points AdventurousOne.


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## Fair Light (Oct 13, 2010)

Raven....I want to tell you that my first visit with my therapist was horrible.....I have a good friend that is a therapist and I trusted her when she recommended this woman...since my friend knows me so well I thought she would pick someone "just like me"....HA HA !! that is funny because the therapist she recommended is the exact opposite of me...when I first layed eyes on her I instantly "did not like her"....to me she was too "froo froo"...I thought this woman couldn't possibly help me..I left there and called my friend to ask why she would recommend someone so opposite of me....she laughed and said that this person is exactly what I needed...that was a tough pill to swallow...but it has been almost 5 years now and I love my therapist!!! she lets me see "another view" of myself and the world around me...another perspective I guess.....she can spot any cr** I try to pass by her...by now she knows me better than anyone else on the planet...I have developed a trust in her...I can depend on her for anything...I am so very glad I gave her a chance...

You can't possibly know what this therapist can or cannot do for you...you cannot make that judgement on 1/2 a visit...you really need to give him an opportunity to work with you and actually put value on what he tells you...as far as his staff, forget them....go in there and do the work...if you do that you will be rewarded with personal growth beyond your imagination...but I also want to tell you that if after several visits you really don't feel comfortable with this guy...change for someone else..but do give him and the process a chance to help you...best wishes to you....


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Oh, I'm going to give him a chance. However, he's already got doubts that he is the right person for me...said in the first meeting I might need a psychiatrist instead of a psychologist.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Ravenlost said:


> Oh, I'm going to give him a chance. However, he's already got doubts that he is the right person for me...said in the first meeting I might need a psychiatrist instead of a psychologist.


Keep going, keep searching, keep moving until that right fit happens.
It may save your life!!



> Let the therapist help you, stop being a door mat, stand up for yourself and live, that is probably more of what your Daddy would want for you than how you are living now!


This is super great advice, but it takes time and hard work to come out from under the thumb of abuse and feel the warmth of the sun on your face. 
The hardest part, is taking that first step.
The next hardest part, is to keep taking steps.

Praying for the right fit and that you soon feel the warmth of the sun!!


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

Don't get discouraged if he refers you. That is a common practice if he suspects you may need meds to break up the underlying depression.

And don't be surprised if, once you are stable on meds, the psychiatrist sends you right back to him for therapy.

Happens all the time.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

It didn't discourage me. I'm already taking Zoloft (100 mg) daily for clinical depression, prescribed by my family doctor. I've been taking it for years now. I think that's why the psychologist wants me to see a psychiatrist...because he can't prescribe meds.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Ravenlost said:


> It didn't discourage me. I'm already taking Zoloft (100 mg) daily for clinical depression, prescribed by my family doctor. I've been taking it for years now. I think that's why the psychologist wants me to see a psychiatrist...because he can't prescribe meds.


Exactly what I am thinking!


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## nodak3 (Feb 5, 2003)

And--it isn't uncommon for med we've had good success on for years to suddenly "poop out". May simply need a meds change.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Probably need to double my meds like my family doctor told me to do last year, which will put me at the maximum dose. I didn't last year because my Vitamin D level was critically low. Doctor agreed so we waited. My levels kept going up and almost reached the low end of normal and bottomed out again. I'm back on mega doses of Vitamin D now, but may need to go ahead and double the Zoloft anyway.


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## mamita (May 19, 2008)

no. I still think you need me to come take you on a road trip. hey...it's simple! I need to grab you and escape for a bit. trust me, you'd have a blast with me.


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## SageLady (Jun 10, 2008)

mamita said:


> no. I still think you need me to come take you on a road trip. hey...it's simple! I need to grab you and escape for a bit. trust me, you'd have a blast with me.


I want to come along too!! 
Sounds like FUN!!!


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## AdventurousOne (Jul 6, 2013)

Here's another 2 cents, this will be my 4 cents in this conv. I agree with a lot of what nodak3 says, I also feel it would be helpful to get yourself out of this situation for a little while where you can focus on yourself, without contact with your husband. Maybe 2 weeks at a friends house. This way you don't have the external issues and pressures that "Maybe" derailing your treatment. I know of many spouses spewing "Their" feelings about recommendations or the changes that that they see and don't agree with, because it changes the way "They" feel of react to things. this type of negative response will and does add more stress to the patient, thus, giving a negative attitude to therapy or "Open mindedness" to treatment, and they will never move forward in their lives, nor have the vision of how to change habits. I am wondering, is your husband supportive in your treatment? or supportive in your getting treatment? has your therapist asked him to accompany your to a session?


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