# Insured but not licensed?



## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

Is this possible. My DB is a handy man, was a licensed contractor type for many years but business crashed in 08. So now he still does small remodeling jobs, handy man stuff and home and business maintenance.

We have moved to the country and I am wondering about his finding jobs closer to home than the big city is. We have met some really good folks in the various trades who would likely be willing to recommend him and I am wondering if local folks would be more inclined to hire him if he carried liability insurance?

Any advice?


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## Eco- (Jan 24, 2015)

Ideally a license, worker's comp that covers him and any day labor if/when he hires and his Gen liability. If he gets hurt on the jobsite both you DB and the homeower will be screwed. Db's health insurance doesn't have to cover something that workers comp should cover. Also the homeowners insurance doesn't have to pay out since he should of had worker's comp. Next up....homeowers insurance doesn't like to cover claims that should go under a contractors gen liability insurance. For example, let's say he cuts a hole in an exterior wall for a doggy door or a window, hits a live wire and burns the house down along with maybe shocking himself causing long term injury or death.. I don't mean to scare you but stuff goes bad quickly when you don't play by the rules. 

On another note, the start up cost of doing it correctly don't fall from the sky. General liability insurance is 1-3k for a 500k-1mil policy. Workers comp is 3-4k plus a year.....oh and if you lie to get to get a lower classification they don't have to pay and can have you jailed for insurance fraud. Tons of contractors like to BS and say they don't do roofing so they don't have to pay out 30 cents of every dollar on workers comp. Even doing windows and doors, my rate is 9.18 cents per dollar. State licensing is only $100-$300 ish a year.

If you want more good news....add in that if he works on a home that is older than 1978 he will need EPA lead safe training + the costs of lead safe tools. Getting caught by the EPA not playing by the rules is a $37,500 fine and they don't play around. Plus contractors that miss out on jobs because someone comes in with a lower price not doing EPA lead safe work know the hotline number to have the other person busted.

Wish I could be more positive but it's really a do it the right way or gamble type of occupation.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Posts like the fear-based one from ECO make me see red. 

When a person is self-employed and has no staff, "workers compensation" insurance is nothing more than a giant sucking leech on income that forces people (especially poorer people who are motivated to work) to give up and become peons in a company that will pay a pittance to them in return for the perceived "safety" or working for an employer. 

The whinge about "lead safe training" is a baldfaced lie. There is no automatic $37,000 fine. http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/ab2d81eb088f4a7e85257359003f5339/1146e74c2c12b0f8852579d70069adcc!OpenDocument&Highlight=2,lead Even a search on the phrase "lead safe tools" brought up this thread as a top search result. There are protocols and safety measures to be taken with removing lead paint, but it is obvious to me that someone is self-inflating and protecting turf by overblowing the issue.

There are some people in this country that would turn it into a serfdom worse than communism, by limiting activities of citizens to only those that aren't covered by some expensive guild or gate-keeper licensing board, and then hound those few remaining people out of business with taxing and regulation. I loathe those people and their "rules." An excess of them and their anti-human laws is one of the few things I would take up arms to overthrow, although I would sooner build them an ant colony and brand them with their own label of worker class ant, suitable only for gathering mouthfuls of dirt and removing it from the colony, before a different class of worker ant would eject their rotting carcasses from the colony.


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

If you are rural, there might not be a criteria to be either insured or licensed. Where I live my handyman is neither as far as I know. But in the next town over, he can't do any electrical or plumbing work because that town requires a license for those areas. 

As far as liability insurance, I've never bothered asking anyone who works for me if they have any since I won't be liable in case of accident if I'm hiring someone. At least in Texas Homeowners liability policies do not cover labour for hire. All I want is a couple of references I can check out. If your DB has good health insurance plus a policy that covers loss of wages in case of an accident, he should be fine.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Belfrybat said:


> As far as liability insurance, I've never bothered asking *anyone who works for me if they have any since I won't be liable in case of accident if I'm hiring someone. *At least in Texas Homeowners liability policies do not cover labour for hire. A


Just because your homeowners doesn't cover it does NOT mean you won't be liable ! Hire some kid to clean your gutters, let him fall off the roof with serious injuries, and see how much it costs you.

Sisterpine: General liability is to protect your husband.....if he drops a tool from a ladder on the homeowner/etc, the insurance pays ( after a healthy deductible if it was like mine....some like $5,000 if I recall from the days I had it). I carried it to protect ME, so I wouldn't lose the farm over a work incident. I doubt most folks care.....I never had one ask about insurance at all.

Workman's comp is what EVERY homeowner ought to have people working on their place, but again, NO homeowner ever asked. (If I did any work for a contractor/business, they ALL asked ! Or they had to pay it.  ) In my opinion, homeowners were leaving themselves wide open for liability, but not from me. Unless they had a clear and present danger to me, I'm not the type that would ever even bother to tell them I hurt myself on their place (and I did over the years.....and I took care of it personally).


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## Eco- (Jan 24, 2015)

Harry Chickpea said:


> Posts like the fear-based one from ECO make me see red.
> 
> When a person is self-employed and has no staff, "workers compensation" insurance is nothing more than a giant sucking leech on income that forces people (especially poorer people who are motivated to work) to give up and become peons in a company that will pay a pittance to them in return for the perceived "safety" or working for an employer.
> 
> ...


I'm glad I took the time to respond to your question attempting to be helpful just to be called a liar. Thank you, because in fact you are correct. When I had my EPA training and got certified we were told that the fine started at $37,500 it was actually a question on both the federal and state tests. Looking at your link it looks like they are issuing much lower fines. In some cases hirer fines like the $500,000 they issued Lowes. Thanks for calling me out:facepalm:


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Eco-

OK, now that we have that out of the way, I'm going to say that there have been MANY times in the past when I myself have stated something as fact, only to have it blow up in my face when I was proven wrong. 

You may have been tested on lead remediation, and the "correct" answer on the test was that fines started at $37,500. If so, (and I have no reason to doubt you) you just got a crash course in what I picked up over many years.

1. People who create tests are OFTEN incompetent and rigid thinkers who don't know the subject or proper use of the language. I can go through an average multiple question test and find at least 10% of it to have errors or not address answers outside of the skill set of the test creator. Some tests are much worse.

2. The minions of governmental agencies lie with impunity. In general, they are protected by statute and have little to fear by doing so, and lots to lose if they go against their tribe and masters.

3. I do my homework before making a post in part because if I am wrong, I want to learn about it on my own, and only post accurate information. I also do research because there are many many lies and twistings of fact on the internet and in print.

I regret having to call a statement you made a lie, but it was, and being so was a disservice to the OP. YOU were lied to and you repeated that lie, likely in innocence. Your willingness to accept that and move on from there makes me respect you more, not less.


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

Geez, you folks (almost said guys, but don't know if you are male or female) get so technical! I will do more research on our local customs and laws to make sure I get it correct. Thank you both.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I'll chime in as the same thing happened to me in '08. I had a thriving statewide business in green remodeling. Texas is a big state too. But _because_ I had GL and WC and all the goodies I finally had to give up. It didn't make me want to quit my chosen trade though. 

Here is what I experienced. Most people do not want to pay for all that but they expect it when the you know what hits the fan. I have bid jobs and lost them to a lowballer only to have the client come back and ask me to fix it later. 

There are clients who appreciate who he is and will pay him what he is worth. You just have to find them. The economy is better now than it once was. One thing I did to hold out was I did Lowes installs to make up for the lost income. They already require all the insurances and he can chose what he wants to do for them. Then when he gets some clientele he can quit them if he wants. They are not easy to work for but the money is there.


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