# Need some help... Whole grain, home-made bread.....



## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

I purchased a good bit of wheat berries from a trusted source, guaranteeing them organic and non-GMO. I also purchased an electric grinding mill and I have produced 4 batches of 4 cups of flour for baking bread. I use the whole grain and it is ground super fine.

I am using a 4 ingredient recipe....
Flour
Water
Salt
Yeast

The bread is extremely dense and doesn't rise much. I am seeking to make some sandwich bread and would like a little more 'loft' to my loaves. 

Anyone have any suggestions? I don't want to use store-bought flour of any kind.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Add eggs - The eggs work as a leavening agent, allowing the bread to rise more than a loaf made just of yeast and water.


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

Wolf mom said:


> Add eggs - The eggs work as a leavening agent, allowing the bread to rise more than a loaf made just of yeast and water.


How many on a two-pound loaf? 1 egg? 2 eggs?

Also, what is the process? Do I whip the eggs with the water?


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

Also, I read that if my bread isn't 'lofting', I need to add a little more yeast and a little more water.

It also needs to be mentioned, that I am baking at 5,000 feet elevation. Is that affecting my bread?


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

What kind of yeast are you using and what kind of wheat berries? I am also grinding and baking my own bread and it's some of the softest I have ever made. It's a hard wheat which is what you want for yeast breads as these are higher in protein/gluten. Are you proofing your yeast and getting good activity?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Big_John said:


> I purchased a good bit of wheat berries from a trusted source, guaranteeing them organic and non-GMO. I also purchased an electric grinding mill and I have produced 4 batches of 4 cups of flour for baking bread. I use the whole grain and it is ground super fine.
> 
> I am using a 4 ingredient recipe....
> Flour
> ...


Add a bit of honey. It’ll help the yeast do it’s job.


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## Orchardsmith (5 mo ago)

Proof the yeast to make sure it's still got juice. I think your flour is too coarse. Try using half unbleached flour and half whole wheat. Experiment with the mix. For a six-cup recipe, I like no more than two cups to be WW. Eggs will help. I have no experience baking at that elevation, but others here will. Good luck to you.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Are you using a bread machine or making it by hand?


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

This is just whole wheat flour I ground, water, salt, sugar, olive oil and yeast. You need hard wheat for good gluten content (or add some gluten) and good yeast. I am using an instant yeast and using my bread maker’s dough function. It is a soft sandwich type bread.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

The higher elevation makes the dough rise faster and could make it fall, but should not make it fail to rise to begin with.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

I have been grinding my own for years and that's all I use. I let mine sit for 15 minutes to soak up the water before I start kneading. Real whole wheat will use more water than processed white flour or even a mix. I always use less flour or more water than a recipe calls for and I've learned the feel for that just right texture. If you are going to err, err on the side of too much water.


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## Orchardsmith (5 mo ago)

Miss Kay said:


> I have been grinding my own for years and that's all I use. I let mine sit for 15 minutes to soak up the water before I start kneading. Real whole wheat will use more water than processed white flour or even a mix. I always use less flour or more water than a recipe calls for and I've learned the feel for that just right texture. If you are going to err, err on the side of too much water.


I learned something from this post. I always knead for a stiffer dough, but if there's water in the WW flour, that would help avoid what I call the 'bark and twigs' texture. Thank you!


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## MichaelK! (Oct 22, 2010)

I use the same advice that Sgurl gave. I add a tablespoon or two of gluten flour to my dough and it improves raising significantly.

If you want to make your own gluten instead of buying it, I believe you can use the same method as if making seitan, the vegetarian meat substitute.









How to Make Vital Wheat Gluten (and Wheat Flour Starch)


How to make vital wheat gluten (in wet and dry form) and wheat starch from flour. Perfect for making homemade seitan with just flour & water!




www.alphafoodie.com


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Miss Kay said:


> I have been grinding my own for years and that's all I use. I let mine sit for 15 minutes to soak up the water before I start kneading. Real whole wheat will use more water than processed white flour or even a mix. I always use less flour or more water than a recipe calls for and I've learned the feel for that just right texture. If you are going to err, err on the side of too much water.


This is what I do. I have found that ww flour takes longer to soak up the water, and that makes it easy to use too little water.

Also your yeast might be old and weak. I would proof it the next time you make bread. I buy yeast in jars, and when it starts getting old I double the yeast to get a good rise.

Also, when I think that the bread has risen enough I poke it gently with my finger: if the dough is soft and the indentation stays I figure it has risen as much as it is going to


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

A few points. There is no such thing as gm wheat. Just clarifying that.

The class of wheat matters, big time. Hard red spring is different than hard red winter. Soft white is different than extra strong red.

Some, actually many wheats ARE NOT grown to use to make bread. Many will not rise well.

Somone said add some honey. I agree 100%.

But back up a bit. Find out the class of wheat, so you can know if it is even remotely suited for bread making. That’s step one. Step two is, if not, find a hard red or hard white spring preferably, followed by hard winter wheat. Other wheat just doesn’t stack up.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Add some of this to your recipe....


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

The problem is, the author seems to want it organic. He will need to find an organic equivalent.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

farmerDale said:


> The problem is, the author seems to want it organic. He will need to find an organic equivalent.


Use this one then,,,,


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Excellent.


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

It's dense, but it sure make a great sandwich today!!!

It is 100% Soft White Winter Wheat Berries. Maybe I need to add some Hard Red Wheat. I also like the idea of adding a little honey. The pic below the sandwich is the yeast we are using.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

farmerDale said:


> The problem is, the author seems to want it organic. He will need to find an organic equivalent.


High profit margin in labeling.


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

Hiro said:


> High profit margin in labeling.


I have no interest in buying "high dollar gluten".... I want my bread to be basic and good and inexpensive.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Big_John said:


> I have no interest in buying "high dollar gluten".... I want my bread to be basic and good and inexpensive.


That is why I asked if you were using a bread machine. Bread machines are programmed to use commercial ingredients. They work well with them. We grind our own wheat and had similar problems. 

Without further input, if you are using a bread machine, you should weigh your flour rather than measure it. If you are doing it by hand, keep practicing on whether the dough has risen enough.


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

Hiro said:


> That is why I asked if you were using a bread machine. Bread machines are programmed to use commercial ingredients. They work well with them. We grind our own wheat and had similar problems.
> 
> Without further input, if you are using a bread machine, you should weigh your flour rather than measure it. If you are doing it by hand, keep practicing on whether the dough has risen enough.



I didn't mean any disrespect.... Your feedback is very good.

Our first four loaves were traditional processes and cooked in a Dutch Oven. Since then we have purchased a bread machine and the last loaf was out of it.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Big_John said:


> I didn't mean any disrespect.... Your feedback is very good.
> 
> Our first four loaves were traditional processes and cooked in a Dutch Oven. Since then we have purchased a bread machine and the last loaf was out of it.
> 
> ...


I am not that sensitive. We had our own tribulation with bread machines after grinding our own flour. Weigh the flour and it will work out.


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

Hiro said:


> I am not that sensitive. We had our own tribulation with bread machines after grinding our own flour. Weigh the flour and it will work out.


 Sorry to sound ignorant... which I am on this subject... but what do you mean by "measure". In our bread machine, the biggest recipes call for 4 cups of flour. 

What weight should I stive for... rather than "cups"?


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

All I can say is all of my home made bread is dense. Or I'll put like this: its never been fluffy like store sandwich bread. I DON"T WANT IT LIKE THAT. If a lunch it will be a hunk of the bread and the other fixins off to the side. Bite of one, bite of the other. It's not so convenient is it? But to me lunch should be making you to shift, clean your hands if you can, and do something else for a few moments. Like eating a hunk of REAL bread. _To me, real bread makes a noise if you drop it._

I like black bread the most. Heavy and strong flavor. Mmmm. You could use it for a weapon but that would be a waste.

So it you want to put stuff between two slices, it can be done but its like comparing Granda's food with stuff off the shelf at Safeway. You eat two different ways.


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## Whacker (Jul 5, 2021)

I don't use a bread machine, but here's what's worked for me, and this is after about 60 loaves that had problems. 

*Use warm water, like a baby's bottle temp
*Add 1/2 oz of maple syrup to your yeast and water solution
*Use a narrower bread pan. 

I make heirloom organic bread from scratch and put my loaves right into the pan after mixing. Let is rise about an hour and throw it in the oven. It usually rises a good inch above the pan edge, and gets a fluffier and more airy texture. I use a 3.75" wide pan. Those work. When i used a 5" wide pan, I couldn't get it to rise enough.


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

Per the pic above.... our sandwich was awesome today. I toasted the bread slices and I added condiments and cheese.... and veggies and ham/bacon and it was awesome. The wife who is sensitive to Wheat... loved it and so far... 12 hours in... is having NO PROBLEMS with her intestines. 

I'm thinking all this processed crap from the grocery store is really the problem.

Our next loaf... I will add a table spoon of Honey... a little more yeast .... and a little more water......

We shall see.......


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

You can try making hybrid bread with part white or unbleached or vital wheat gluten. But honestly 100% whole grain bread is going to be more dense. Just the nature of the beast. People just got used to Wonderbread and are disappointed real bread isnt fluffy like that. Look at some of traditional 100% rye breads, those can be extremely dense. But dense bread tastes fine as long as it cooked through. Its when it has raw center that its yuck.

Oh adding extra yeast for more loft is newbie mistake. All you will do is get a strong yeasty tasting bread and probably expelling yeasty digestive gases all night long. Really NOT a good idea and wont give extra loft.

Mom always made bread with eggs and milk. On farm always seems surplus of those. I agree with the earlier poster that will probably help some with loft. Make it softer anyway.

By way most bread machines dont do well with 100% whole wheat. Programmed cycles arent right. There maybe some specialty machines with whole wheat cycle, but I would read reviews closely before purchasing one. They will not be cheap.

I've never lived high altitude, but if you are thinking that is a problem, you can "steam bake" your bread in a pressure cooker. Steam baked bread is like oven baked bread on inside, just looks weird on outside, no hard crust. Easy Bread Anywhere:


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

HermitJohn said:


> You can try making hybrid bread


I think HermitJohn nailed it.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Big_John said:


> It's dense, but it sure make a great sandwich today!!!
> 
> It is 100% Soft White Winter Wheat Berries. Maybe I need to add some Hard Red Wheat. I also like the idea of adding a little honey. The pic below the sandwich is the yeast we are using.


Yes your soft wheats are best suited to biscuits and pastries. Make some biscuits with it and see what you think!


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

JRHill02 said:


> All I can say is all of my home made bread is dense. Or I'll put like this: its never been fluffy like store sandwich bread. I DON"T WANT IT LIKE THAT. If a lunch it will be a hunk of the bread and the other fixins off to the side. Bite of one, bite of the other. It's not so convenient is it? But to me lunch should be making you to shift, clean your hands if you can, and do something else for a few moments. Like eating a hunk of REAL bread. _To me, real bread makes a noise if you drop it._
> 
> I like black bread the most. Heavy and strong flavor. Mmmm. You could use it for a weapon but that would be a waste.
> 
> So it you want to put stuff between two slices, it can be done but its like comparing Granda's food with stuff off the shelf at Safeway. You eat two different ways.


I like denser bread also lol! I remember the whole wheat we made when I was a kid and I miss it. I have wanted a heavier bread and then it comes out so fluffy and light and I’m kind of disappointed but my husband thinks it’s great lol. 
Wonder bread, ewwwwwwwww


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

I find that my bread is a bit less dense (but still plenty sturdy) if I do an extra rising in the bowl.


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## Texas23 (6 mo ago)

@southerngurl is on the mark…..
SOFT white wheat is best for baking things that you don’t want chewy, ie cookies, cakes, biscuits. It will produce a crumble.
HARD wheat (red or white) is best for making breads. When kneaded the dough gets elastic and stretchy. When the yeast ferments and creates CO2, that CO2 is ”caught“ in the elastic dough and makes bubbles. It‘s these bubbles that allow the dough to rise and gives the bread its structure.

My wife is a bread & cheese addict!!! Store bought bread & cheese will double her over and cause many unpleasant trips to the bathroom. However, since we’ve been making homemade bread from fresh ground organic wheat berries and homemade cheese from organic cow’s milk or our own goat milk. She can eat bread and cheese until her heart is content.
Also consider making sour dough bread. Since the first rise is going for 12 to 24 hours the wheat is also going through a fermentation process and therefore making it more digestible and easier on the intestines. And no more yeast to buy.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Oh NO! Making bread is contributing to climate change! Who'd have thunk it?


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## Texas23 (6 mo ago)

JRHill02 said:


> Oh NO! Making bread is contributing to climate change! Who'd have thunk it?


Between my making bread, sauerkraut, & wine, I’ve produced enough CO2 to be Greta’s public enemy #1. 😁


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Texas23 said:


> Between my making bread, sauerkraut, & wine, I’ve produced enough CO2 to be Greta’s public enemy #1. 😁
> 
> View attachment 116601


Don't wory about it. The jet she took to that publicity stunt put out more CO2 than your bread, kraut and wine.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Texas23 said:


> Between my making bread, sauerkraut, & wine, I’ve produced enough CO2 to be Greta’s public enemy #1. 😁
> 
> View attachment 116601


Not really, using plants that grew during your life, let alone last summer, is pretty carbon neutral long as they are replanted (natively or by human hand) once harvested. Whether you eat them, burn them, or ferment them. They will decompose one way or another without human intervention. Why the catalytic converter diapers on cattle ( in NZ is it?) kinda dumb. Fire is just faster and maybe produces some more harmful kinds of gases, but thats nothing compared to mining and burning whole forests from millennia past and melting permafrost that also releases lot green house gases from ancient times from the ice. Just burn currently existing biomass and not coal/oil, then its a wash, but there isnt enough forest or biomass growth per year in whole planet to meet yearly energy needs, we mine it from far distant past in HUGE quantities in form of oil/gas. Thats the problem. Burning hundreds or thousands of years worth of biomass growth in one year is short sighted and throws current ecosystem out of balance.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Just teasing about the whole CO2 thing - y'all know that.

I/we absolutely LOVE fresh bread but it's been quite a while since the last loaf. Being fully off grid the baking is one major issue. Our propane oven is a PITB because it doesn't have a pilot flame but instead uses electric ignitors. The individual burners are fine but in the oven there is this resistance coil that literally draws 500+ watts the WHOLE time the oven is on. Its own heat adds to the oven temperature which would be a non-issue if we had utility power. But with solar and batteries its an unusable/unacceptable appliance. We store various things in the oven space.

So we have a bread maker. It does a really good job. But still we only use it in the summer. Even then I put it on the porch, during the day, duh, to keep the heat out of the house since we don't have, ah, air conditioning. Even in triple digit summer heat we get by with a ceiling fan and inside with the low to mid 80's and the leaves are wilting on the trees. Think its hot inside? Just step outside for a few minutes and when you come in you'll get a chill. THE DOWNSIDE IS NOT HAVING THE WHOLE HOUSE SMELLING OF FRESH BREAD. And a slice as soon as you can cut it with a slathering of real butter.

I'll offer this with the bread maker stuff: You can adjust the white flour to whole wheat flour to kind of get what you want for bread fluffiness. As mentioned, I don't want fluffy bread. Mine would be a dipping, growling, snarling thing. Don't get close. The DW the same, You'll get a bite.


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

Ok... so I will grind Hard Red Winter Wheat for our next loaf and see how that turns out. I think I will add a table spoon of Honey, just for the fun of it and see if it rises more.

The wife is intrigued to make some baking powder biscuits with our White Wheat and see how they turn out... with some Bacon grease, cream gravy poured over the top of course.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Big_John said:


> Ok... so I will grind Hard Red Winter Wheat for our next loaf and see how that turns out. I think I will add a table spoon of Honey, just for the fun of it and see if it rises more.
> 
> The wife is intrigued to make some baking powder biscuits with our White Wheat and see how they turn out... with some Bacon grease, cream gravy poured over the top of course.
> 
> ...


I've never bothered to do a comparison study, but I have read that honey will actually retard the yeast growth, and that you should wait until after you proof your yeast before adding honey. 

i wonder if adding a bit of fat to the dough will help with the crumb...?


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

This is what I use instead of instant yeast. It's reported to be the best wild strain for 100% whole wheat. I use hard white for loaf bread and soft white for English muffins and waffles. I have used it for years and keep it in the fridge for weeks before needed again. I know some people have trouble getting the powder started but just do exactly what the instructions say and it will work. The key is knowing what an "active" starter looks like. It if is very bubbly and nearly doubled in the jar, it's ready. Anything less than that, it is not and therefore your bread will not rise. I get my wheat in 25 pound (or something like that) bags that are not certified organic but are free from roundup type defoliate from Amazon. 

South African Culture

This is just a small family operation and have been easy to deal with. They have many others if you are interested in trying them.


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

Pony said:


> I've never bothered to do a comparison study, but I have read that honey will actually retard the yeast growth, and that you should wait until after you proof your yeast before adding honey.
> 
> i wonder if adding a bit of fat to the dough will help with the crumb...?



Off the website below... I found this statement: "When a recipe calls for sugar, most bakers use white sugar. With sourdough many other sweeteners can be substituted, including brown sugar, corn syrups and honey."




Miss Kay said:


> This is what I use instead of instant yeast. It's reported to be the best wild strain for 100% whole wheat. I use hard white for loaf bread and soft white for English muffins and waffles. I have used it for years and keep it in the fridge for weeks before needed again. I know some people have trouble getting the powder started but just do exactly what the instructions say and it will work. The key is knowing what an "active" starter looks like. It if is very bubbly and nearly doubled in the jar, it's ready. Anything less than that, it is not and therefore your bread will not rise. I get my wheat in 25 pound (or something like that) bags that are not certified organic but are free from roundup type defoliate from Amazon.
> 
> South African Culture
> 
> This is just a small family operation and have been easy to deal with. They have many others if you are interested in trying them.



Giddy up... I just ordered two of the African starters.... for some insurance. Can't wait to give it a go.



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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

Ok.... another loaf is in the bread maker. This time I used Hard Red Winter Wheat. We increased the yeast from 1.5 tsp to 2.0 tsp and we added an additional Table spoon of water..... and a Table spoon of Honey. In the 3rd rising, the loaf is already a lot 'taller' than the last loaf.

We shall see......



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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Here are my two favorite whole wheat recipes used on my African sourdough starter:

Whole Wheat Sourdough bread
1 cup of freshly very activated culture
1 ½ teaspoon salt
1 tablespoon sugar
1 cup milk
1 tablespoon olive oil
3 cups freshly milled whole wheat flour (I prefer hard white)
To make culture, add 1 ¼ cups freshly milled four to refrigerated stored culture and enough warm water stirred in to make pancake like dough. Place in window and let grow until it has risen to almost double and has lots of bubbles throughout. Now it is ready to use and this can take from 3 hours to who knows how long, depending on how long it has been stored in the fridge (the longer stored, the longer it takes). When ready, stir it down good to get rid of all the bubbles and measure out one cup. Place the rest in the fridge until next time.
Pour culture in large bowl and stir in ingredients with the flour last. Add flour slowly until you can no longer stir with a spoon. You will have some flour left over for adding while kneading. Let it set for 10-15 minute to absorb the moisture. Knead the flour with a kitchen aid mixer with hook on speed 1 (or do it by hand) for 15 to 25 minutes or until the gluten forms well. Add more flour as needed but don’t get it too dry. If needed, add some water. 
Let rise covered with plastic for 8 to 12 hours at room temperature (I prepare it just before bed and finish when I wake up next morning)

Dump bowl of dough out on floured board. Flatten and fold sides in gently. If too wet, knead some flour in. Otherwise, just fold all four sides in, turn upside down with seams on bottom, and form into loaf. I use a French bread shaped clay bakeware with lid but you can do whatever you like, any shape you like. Let rise at room temp for 1 ½ hour and then add to a warm spot (85 to 90 degrees such as oven with the light left on) for 1 ½ hour. This gives you the best rise and the best sour taste. If you don’t want to mess with it, just leave it out in the kitchen for 3 hours and move on.

Slice the top with a razor blade to give it room to rise. I soak my lid with water before placing it on the pot, to give it steam but that’s only if you have the clay baking pot. It will do fine on a cookie sheet or in a loaf pan, your choice. Place it in a cool oven and then turn to 375 degrees and bake for 70 minutes (start counting when the oven is to 375) or until it feels and looks done. Let it cool for 15 minutes before cutting.



English Muffins – these freeze well. I make a batch and then put one in the microwave each morning before toasting it.
1 cup very active culture (see above)
1 cup water
1 cup milk
3 tablespoons olive oil
2 teaspoons salt
6 cups freshly milled flour (I use soft white flour)

Place culture in a large bowl and stir in remaining ingredients. Add more water if needed. Knead 15 minutes in mixer stand with hook on speed 1

Pour out on dough board and roll with rolling pin until it is ½ inch thick. Cut with 4 inch biscuit cutters and place muffins on parchment paper on cookie sheet. 

Proof at room temperature for 3 hours

Place in a preheated 450 degree oven for 7 to 8 minutes. Take out, flip each muffin, and pop it back in the oven to cook the other side for 7 to 8 minutes. You decide how brown you want them.
Take them out and eat or freeze. Gosh these are good warm with a slice of cheese!


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

Have activated the cultures and am STOKED to eventually bake our first loaf!!!!!


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

Miss Kay said:


> Here are my two favorite whole wheat recipes used on my African sourdough starter:
> 
> Whole Wheat Sourdough bread
> 1 cup of freshly very activated culture
> ...



Awesome... the wife is so excited to see the English Muffin recipe. She loves them!!!!

Our bread loaves will be attempted in a bread-maker. 

Will report back.

......


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

So I have some questions..... 

I am using home milled, Red Winter Wheat Berries and the African Yeast Starter that requires whole grain.

1. I have read that 70-75 degrees is the right temperature range for the Culture. During the winter, I keep the house at about 68 degrees during the day and at night it is about 63-65 degrees for 8-9 hours at night. How will these lower temps affect my culture? What should I do different?

2. Once I get my culture fully activated.... is that when I put it in the Frig until I use it?

3. A couple of times, Hooch has formed in a layer that is about half way down the jar from the top of the culture. It seems impossible to pour it out. What should I do and what am I doing wrong?

4. After a discard and feeding, it seems the gas bubbles are at their peak around 5-6 hours. Is it at this point that I take some (usually a cup it seems) and make my bread?

5. After a cup is taken out for baking, what should be done with the culture? Do I discard, only keeping an inch and then re-feed..... and then put in the Frig after 4-6 hours?



..........


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

#1 - I also keep my house cool in the winter and it works just fine. Mine seems very forgiving, it works in the heat of summer and the cold of winter.
#2 - yes, you always want it to be fully activated before storing it in the fridge. But, you can't then take it out days later and use it. You must always feed it and watch it bubble up again before you use it. I keep about a cup and then feed it with about a cup of flour and 3/4 cup of water. That gives me about 2 cups of active dough once I stir it down to get rid of the bubbles (or else you can't measure proper). I use one cup and store the other cup for next time. 
#3 - Hooch is normal. Just stir it back in. I've never had hooch form during the feeding and activation part, it's always in the fridge storing part. When I take it out of the fridge, it will have a black liquid on top. Stir it good, feed it with freshly ground wheat and warm water, and let it rise for a few hours. It almost sounds to me as if it was going dormant on you while you thought it was activating. I had a hard time getting mine started from the powder form but once you get it really active, you should never have that trouble again. You will need to feed it every 4 hours at first (and pour some out each time) even if it isn't rising much. This is only to activate it from a new package. Once it really gets going, you will see it have lots of bubbles and it will nearly double in size. At that point, if you are gone or not paying attention, it can peak and then deflate and go dormant right there on your kitchen counter. You should be able to see the ring it leaves at the top though, showing you that it did in fact rise but you missed it. Just feed it again (and pour some out) and keep an eye on it. The second time should only take 2 hours or so to rise and bubble up again. This is because it was not refrigerated in between activations so it never went completely asleep.
#4 That's it! Bingo!! This is when it is at it's peak and will give you the good rise in your bread that you want. Smell of it and learn what that smell is. This is what a healthy, active, sourdough smells like. Learn how it looks. It should be very foamy and air filled. Stir it down good in order to measure it since you can't pour it out all bubbly like that. Use the cup to make your bread and put a lid on the mixture that's left in the jar and put it in the fridge for next time. The more you use it, the better you will get. You will soon learn exactly what time it will be ready. It may be faster in the summer than in the winter but you'll soon learn what to expect from your starter. You can also best plan when to start the first phase of your bread making. I take mine out, feed it, and then know it will be ready about 8 o'clock at night. That gives me just enough time to mix up a batch, knead it, and then leave it to rise overnight. I get up about 5 or 6 the next morning (depends on when the dog barks) and then I dump it out on my counter, knead a little more, and then form it into the loaf for the final rise. Then I go get dressed, etc. and I'm ready to pop it in the oven for a mid morning fresh loaf. When I'm doing the English muffins, I feed the starter much earlier in the day because they do not need to rise nearly as long so I will start it and make the muffins in the same day. It's all about timing and making it fit around your normal schedule. 
#5 - I make sure I feed it enough so that I have at least two cups of active culture (after stirring it down of course or else it would measure 4 cups of bubbly starter). I pour out one cup to use, slap the lid on my jar, and put the jar in the fridge. Then I get on with making my bread with the starter that is in my measuring cup. There is no need to add more flour to the jar at this point because it is already active and you will have enough to use to add the flour to next time (as you say feeding it). It's really not as much work as it sounds. I take a cold jar out (with about 1 cup left in it), I stir it good to mix the liquid and hooch back in, feed it, add warm (but not hot) water, put it in the window, come back in a few hours and take it out of the window when it has doubled (very active). I stir it well, pour out my cup to bake with, put the lid on the jar, and back in the fridge it goes until next time.

Wow, I hope I didn't confuse you. It seems I wrote way more than needed but there you have it. Let me know if I can help with any other questions. I sure hope it works for you.


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

Very disappointed... The bread didn't rise as much as I was expecting. The rise was actually less than with quick yeast.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Were you certain that it was fully active when you used it?


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

Miss Kay said:


> Were you certain that it was fully active when you used it?


Not at all.... First time I have ever done this, so I only know what I have read. I'm guessing you are right and the culture simply isn't at peak. Instructions said it would be ready in 3-5 days, but my daughter said it took her culture a full two weeks to be fully active. I shall keep nurturing it......


......


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

It takes a bit to get the hang of it but once you do, it will be so worth it. You can always make bread with purchased yeast but it takes the sourdough starter to get the traditional sourdough taste, plus the health benefits are better since it ferments the wheat and breaks it down for digestion.


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

Miss Kay, have you ever added instant dry yeast to your sour dough recipes? I watched a youtube on it and WOW... their bread rose 30-40% higher than just whole wheat sour dough alone.


.........


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

Miss Kay said:


> ........
> 
> #3 - Hooch is normal. Just stir it back in. I've never had hooch form during the feeding and activation part, it's always in the fridge storing part. When I take it out of the fridge, it will have a black liquid on top. Stir it good, feed it with freshly ground wheat and warm water, and let it rise for a few hours. It almost sounds to me as if it was going dormant on you while you thought it was activating. I had a hard time getting mine started from the powder form but once you get it really active, you should never have that trouble again. You will need to feed it every 4 hours at first (and pour some out each time) even if it isn't rising much. This is only to activate it from a new package. Once it really gets going, you will see it have lots of bubbles and it will nearly double in size. At that point, if you are gone or not paying attention, it can peak and then deflate and go dormant right there on your kitchen counter. You should be able to see the ring it leaves at the top though, showing you that it did in fact rise but you missed it. Just feed it again (and pour some out) and keep an eye on it. The second time should only take 2 hours or so to rise and bubble up again. This is because it was not refrigerated in between activations so it never went completely asleep.
> 
> ......



My starter/culture is no where near ready to go and it hasn't been put in the Frig yet..... But look at that amount of Hooch. It does this every 24 hours. 













............


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Hooch is a black line. This looks like the wheat is settling on the bottom and your water is on top. I don't see any bubbles or action going on. I'm not sure why it is taking so long to activate or what's happened. I don't remember mine taking that long but then it's been many years. I would feed it every 4 hours no matter what it looks like and pour half out (or put it outside on plants so as not to waste it, etc.). You want it to have a pancake batter consistency, not a cake batter consistency (too wet). When you wait too long to feed it, the acid takes over and kills out the other life. That's why you feed it and pour part of it out, to get rid of the acid. If it ever was actually activated and you didn't see it (should have left a ring at the top of the jar where it rose), it then started degrading. That's why you put it in the fridge if you are not using it or feeding it. In the cool, it will live but go dormant. In the heat of the room, it will continue to make acid which will overpower the jar and can kill it if left out unfed too long. It all sounds like a lot of work, which is why most people give up early on but If you ever see an active jar, you will never forget it. It will look like foam and it will grow by the hour. Then the hard work is done and you'll never have to go through all this again, as long as take care of it like described in previous posts. It can last for months untouched in the fridge, but not on the kitchen counter. I hope this works for you. If you didn't live so far, I'd send you some active and then you could skip this whole step.


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## Big_John (Dec 1, 2021)

Miss Kay said:


> Hooch is a black line. This looks like the wheat is settling on the bottom and your water is on top. I don't see any bubbles or action going on. I'm not sure why it is taking so long to activate or what's happened. I don't remember mine taking that long but then it's been many years. I would feed it every 4 hours no matter what it looks like and pour half out (or put it outside on plants so as not to waste it, etc.). You want it to have a pancake batter consistency, not a cake batter consistency (too wet). When you wait too long to feed it, the acid takes over and kills out the other life. That's why you feed it and pour part of it out, to get rid of the acid. If it ever was actually activated and you didn't see it (should have left a ring at the top of the jar where it rose), it then started degrading. That's why you put it in the fridge if you are not using it or feeding it. In the cool, it will live but go dormant. In the heat of the room, it will continue to make acid which will overpower the jar and can kill it if left out unfed too long. It all sounds like a lot of work, which is why most people give up early on but If you ever see an active jar, you will never forget it. It will look like foam and it will grow by the hour. Then the hard work is done and you'll never have to go through all this again, as long as take care of it like described in previous posts. It can last for months untouched in the fridge, but not on the kitchen counter. I hope this works for you. If you didn't live so far, I'd send you some active and then you could skip this whole step.



Yep... you are correct that the fluid is just water. After the last few days, the bubbly, frothy wheat would rise above the water over time.

The loaf I cooked on Sunday morning, rose like crazy and actually over-flowed the cooking container. I tried a 2lb recipe.... next time I will just do a 1.5lb recipe.


.......


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

My locally developed sourdough starter is a success. I gathered some juniper berries and added them to the jar of flour/water mix and left it open on the kitchen counter for a few days. It took about three weeks of babying it along, and I almost gave up. Suddenly it kicked in.

I have made rolls with it twice, using a modified Japanese Milk Bread recipe. We ate them, so I can’t post a picture.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Oh Big John, I'm so happy it worked for you. I'm glad you stuck with it. Now that you've done it, it's going to be so easy from here out now that you know what it looks like. Great job!


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