# A Possible Problem with Keto or Low Carb in General



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

This is for information. I am not attacking keto or advocating a vegetarian diet. I think I finally understand why a keto diet made me sick and it can do the same to some others. This is a bunch of pieces of information that I have strung together. I can support each piece of information, but have never seen all of it together. Feel free to point out any areas you think might be wrong or misleading.

Some people who have a condition called leaky gut may have a problem eating a diet high in saturated fat. The gut wall is only 1 cell thick, so it can be easily damaged. When damaged, contents of the gut can leak through into the blood stream. Wheat (gluten) is often listed as a food that causes damage to the gut wall in some people. Just eating a SAD diet can do it. There are also gene "mutations" that increase the likelihood of having a leaky gut.

For a reason I don't yet understand, saturated fat seems to be the main culprit leaking out of the gut and it carries with it lectins and dead bacteria. Your body mobilizes antibodies to try to kill these attackers, resulting in inflammation.

Here's where the liver gets overloaded and real health problems begin. The liver has to try to remove all these "toxins" from the blood, but there is so many in the blood it can't get all of them flushed out. Some get stored in fat cells plus you are in an almost perpetual state of inflammation.

Then the liver gets hit again. LDL is carrying cholesterol to cells for repair, etc. A piece of cholesterol gets cut off for a cell needing it, then the remaining cholesterol is supposed to get returned to the liver for recycling. BUT, the saturated fat that has leaked into the blood system attaches to the LDL, so now the LDL can't bind to the liver for removal. This LDL with the saturated fat attached is what is known as small, dense LDL. This is the bad cholesterol that seems to create plaque and cause heart disease.

If you don't have a leaky gut, it appears saturated fat is OK in the diet, but if you have leaky gut saturated fat can cause inflammation, put a hit on the liver, make you gain fat, and cause an increase in small dense ldl resulting in plaque buildup and heart disease.

I'm thinking if your CRP, HS-CRP, and a ldl particle number are high, that might indicate you have a leaky gut. I hope to run this by my new doctor next month.

This might explain why some people do well on a high fat diet and others do better on a low fat diet.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

how do we know if we have a leaky gut. guess we would have to go to a doctor to find out. i wish you'd spell things. what's CRP, HS_CRP, LDS. I have to look all that up. maybe because I never go to doctors. LDS would be latter day saints to me and I know that's not it

I'll wait until Painterswife comes in and see what she's got to say about it. she's well up on the Keto Plan. ~Georgia


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

"Leaky gut" is a gray area from what I've read. Is it real? Apparently many MDs aren't sure. Gut flora and it's issues are very real.

I agree with getting painterswife's opinion.


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## Skamp (Apr 26, 2014)

Please define “gut”.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I have seen people talk about leaky gut but haven't researched it myself. I do believe that keto does not work for everyone. Just as some can eat what ever they want, some can't. You have to let your body tell you what works for you. I do wish I paid more attention to what my body was telling me years ago.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

This has basic information from a reputable source.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/leaky-gut-what-is-it-and-what-does-it-mean-for-you-2017092212451


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

newfieannie said:


> how do we know if we have a leaky gut. guess we would have to go to a doctor to find out. i wish you'd spell things. what's CRP, HS_CRP, LDS. I have to look all that up. maybe because I never go to doctors. LDS would be latter day saints to me and I know that's not it
> 
> I'll wait until Painterswife comes in and see what she's got to say about it. she's well up on the Keto Plan. ~Georgia


LDS was actually a typo. It should have been LDL, which is commonly referred to as bad cholesterol. When there is a high number of ldl particles in the blood, that can be an indicator of potential heart disease. CRP is C reactive protein, which is a measure of inflammation and highly sensitive CRP is an indicator of inflammation and potential heart disease. They are all fairly common blood tests.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

From your link: "We already know that increased intestinal permeability plays a role in certain gastrointestinal conditions such as celiac disease, Crohn’s disease, and irritable bowel syndrome. The biggest question is whether or not a leaky gut may cause problems elsewhere in the body. Some studies show that leaky gut may be associated with other autoimmune diseases (lupus, type 1 diabetes, multiple sclerosis), chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, arthritis, allergies, asthma, acne, obesity, and even mental illness. However, we do not yet have clinical studies in humans showing such a cause and effect."

"Controversy still exists on whether leaky gut causes the development of diseases outside the gastrointestinal tract in humans. However, it is always a good idea to eat a nutritious, unprocessed diet that includes foods that help quell inflammation (and avoids foods known to trigger inflammation), which may, at least in theory, help to rebuild the gut lining and bring more balance to the gut flora. This recipe could make you feel better, without any side effects. It is definitely worth a try."

So... maybe.  And while the contributor is a MD and the blog is from Harvard, it's still a gray area.

What type of physician will you be seeing about possibly leaky gut?


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## Skamp (Apr 26, 2014)

MoonRiver said:


> This has basic information from a reputable source.
> 
> https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/leaky-gut-what-is-it-and-what-does-it-mean-for-you-2017092212451


Please define “gut”. The link didn’t help with that.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Skamp said:


> Please define “gut”. The link didn’t help with that.


The tube that goes from your mouth to your anus.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> So... maybe.  And while the contributor is a MD and the blog is from Harvard, it's still a gray area.


Go to pubmed and search on leaky gut.


> What type of physician will you be seeing about possibly leaky gut?


I see Internal Medicine MDs that are either functional or integrative and they have known about it for years. I would think most Internal Med docs would know about it.


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## Skamp (Apr 26, 2014)

MoonRiver said:


> The tube that goes from your mouth to your anus.


I beg to differ.

“the alimentary canal, especially between the pylorus and the anus, or some portion of it.”

You are too broad.

But, even if I were to agree, there is no ‘one cell tube’ anywhere along that path.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Skamp said:


> I beg to differ.
> 
> “the alimentary canal, especially between the pylorus and the anus, or some portion of it.”
> 
> ...


I really don't care if you agree or not.


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## Skamp (Apr 26, 2014)

MoonRiver said:


> I really don't care if you agree or not.


I imagine someone telling that to their Doctor.

Google says............


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

"_*The gut is a hollow tube that passes from the mouth to the anus*. _Anything that goes in the mouth and isn’t digested will pass right out the other end. This is, in fact, one of the most important functions of the gut: to prevent foreign substances from entering the body.

When the intestinal barrier becomes permeable (i.e. “leaky gut syndrome”), large protein molecules escape into the bloodstream. Since these proteins don’t belong outside of the gut, the body mounts an immune response and attacks them. Studies show that these attacks play a role in the development of autoimmune diseases like Hashimoto’s and type 1 diabetes, among others."
https://chriskresser.com/9-steps-to-perfect-health-5-heal-your-gut/

"The gastrointestinal tract (digestive tract, digestional tract, GI tract, GIT, *gut*, or alimentary canal) is an organ system within humans and other animals which takes in food, digests it to extract and absorb energy and nutrients, and expels the remaining waste as feces. *The mouth, esophagus, stomach and intestines* are part of the gastrointestinal tract.
" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastrointestinal_tract


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## Skamp (Apr 26, 2014)

MoonRiver said:


> "_*The gut is a hollow tube that passes from the mouth to the anus*. _Anything that goes in the mouth and isn’t digested will pass right out the other end. This is, in fact, one of the most important functions of the gut: to prevent foreign substances from entering the body.
> 
> When the intestinal barrier becomes permeable (i.e. “leaky gut syndrome”), large protein molecules escape into the bloodstream. Since these proteins don’t belong outside of the gut, the body mounts an immune response and attacks them. Studies show that these attacks play a role in the development of autoimmune diseases like Hashimoto’s and type 1 diabetes, among others."
> https://chriskresser.com/9-steps-to-perfect-health-5-heal-your-gut/
> ...



So, lip/cheek bites and roof pizza burns are included?


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Ah but low carb can be vegetarian or even vegan. Doesnt have to be a heavy meat diet. I personally see heavy grain derived diet as being biggest health problem. Grain and grain derived products are incredibly carb dense and many have fiber removed. Eating all the fresh unprocessed produce you want is fine for most people with a few high starch/sugar exceptions, the modest amount carbs plus fiber in it protects you. Its also expensive to eat fresh produce unless you can grow your own, then mostly just in season. Its the 'more profit through chemistry' foods usually derived from grain or synthetics that cause most lifestyle diet problems. And then its cause such are cheap which allows people in developed or developing countries to overeat on such. More cheap high carb food is first luxury people in developing country can afford.

We are past the stage in most of world where people are rural, truly cash poor to where they cant afford to overeat on cheap grain based calories, and have to do day in and day out hard manual labor to survive. Grain diet is fine if there is lot labor involved combined with economics of not affording excess carb calories. But that is relatively rare and only true for poorest of the poor. Few Americans are that destitute. Food stamps can buy cheap low grade calories, but very little fresh produce, and food banks alas are filled with cheap starchy foods and shelf stable processed foods in a box. They are easy to store for as long as needed.

People point out some traditional chinese peasant living on bowl of rice with few vegettables. But thats is exactly the point, its ONE relatively small bowl of rice couple times a day and whole lot of physical labor. Its not an all you can eat buffet of high carb dishes combined with desk job.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

HermitJohn said:


> Ah but low carb can be vegetarian or even vegan. Doesnt have to be a heavy meat diet.


My post was about saturated fat on a low carb or keto diet.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Last night it occurred to me that if saturated fat could, in some people, do this much damage, it must effect nitric oxide production. Nitric oxide relaxes the arteries. This morning I looked it up and sure enough it does.


> So let's look at just *10+ Studies That Show that Saturated Fat Lowers Nitric Oxide, Blood Flow and/or the Ability of the Arteries to Relax (Endothelial Function)*:
> 
> 1. HACK: Walnuts Needed to Reduce Loss of Arterial Flexibility from Saturated Fat. "Tests showed that both the olive oil and the walnuts helped to reduce the sudden onset of harmful inflammation and oxidation in arteries *that follows a meal high in saturated fat*...However, unlike olive oil, *adding walnuts also helped preserve the elasticity and flexibility of the arteries*, regardless of cholesterol level. Arteries that are elastic can expand when needed to increase blood flow." [1]
> 
> ...


The references are listed on source site.

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Saturated_Fat_Nitric_Oxide.aspx

This can mean high blood pressure, heart disease, and ed (erectile dysfunction) in some men.

Note: Again, this is not meant as an attack on high fat diets but an attempt to share what I believe happened to me when I was on a high fat diet. The problems were not noticeable the 1st month or the 1st year, but occurred after many years of primarily being on a high fat, low carb diet.

I think for me, the problems were there from day 1, but did not cause symptoms recognized by the doctors. I couldn't lose weight, had overwhelming fatigue, and memory fog, yet doctors couldn't find anything wrong. Eventually I started having blood pressure spikes as high as 220/120 with a heart rate of 135 (usually in 60's - 70's) on a daily basis. Again, doctors couldn't find anything wrong and kept prescribing more and more meds, which did nothing to bring BP down.

Cutting back on saturated fat helped control my BP. I recently cut even fish and chicken from my diet, as well as all types of oils, and BP dropped even more. I have been able to further cut back on BP meds and now am on just 1 med at 1/3 lower dosage. I am also slowly starting to lose weight again. I hope to get a full complement of labs next month and will see if inflammation and cholesterol have improved.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> My post was about saturated fat on a low carb or keto diet.


Then you mislabeled this thread. You labelled it as a possible problem with keto or *low carb in general* not a possible problem with saturated fats with those low carb people eating meat. It does make a difference. And indeed vegans dont eat saturated fats but vegetarians might if they eat dairy/eggs. 

In other words you are commenting on your take of a low carb diet which includes lots of meat and thus saturated fats? lI am pointing out that you can eat low carb without any saturated fats that you tell us you have a problem with.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

HermitJohn said:


> Then you mislabeled this thread. You labelled it as a possible problem with keto or *low carb in general* not a possible problem with saturated fats with those low carb people eating meat. It does make a difference. And indeed vegans dont eat saturated fats but vegetarians might if they eat dairy/eggs.
> 
> In other words you are commenting on your take of a low carb diet which includes lots of meat and thus saturated fats? lI am pointing out that you can eat low carb without any saturated fats that you tell us you have a problem with.


Nothing wrong with the title. The *possible* problem is saturated fat.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Title police.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I don't know anything about leaky guts. I track my food. I have noticed if I go anywhere above around 35% of my calories coming from fat I get fancy racing stripes in my unmentionables. If i get too high on my protein I have a lot of gas. Too much protein and fat is a bad combo, for me personally, nothing good will come of it.


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## Skamp (Apr 26, 2014)

barnbilder said:


> I don't know anything about leaky guts. I track my food. I have noticed if I go anywhere above around 35% of my calories coming from fat I get fancy racing stripes in my unmentionables. If i get too high on my protein I have a lot of gas. Too much protein and fat is a bad combo, for me personally, nothing good will come of it.



With the lack of fiber hearbouts, I imagine some uptight attitudes.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

barnbilder said:


> I don't know anything about leaky guts. I track my food. I have noticed if I go anywhere above around 35% of my calories coming from fat I get fancy racing stripes in my unmentionables. If i get too high on my protein I have a lot of gas. Too much protein and fat is a bad combo, for me personally, nothing good will come of it.


As we get older, it is fairly common to produce less digestive enzymes as well as stomach acid. That means fat isn't completely digested and has to be excreted. There is also the possibility that we may produce less of the enzyme that allows cells to metabolize fat as we age. Both are reasons foods we could eat when we were younger may become a problem as we get older.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

MoonRiver said:


> As we get older, it is fairly common to produce less digestive enzymes as well as stomach acid. That means fat isn't completely digested and has to be excreted. There is also the possibility that we may produce less of the enzyme that allows cells to metabolize fat as we age. Both are reasons foods we could eat when we were younger may become a problem as we get older.


Raw milk is a good answer
Enzymes amino acids vitamins minerals
No end to the good of milk


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## RideBarefoot (Jun 29, 2008)

Lyme disease, and its resulting inflammation, created huge leaky gut issues for me. My body was pretty much poisoning itself, to the point of ending up in the cardiac lab/not being able to walk. Years of being mis-diagnosed; you have MS, lupus, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, blah, blah, blah.....
By the time I was correctly diagnosed it was chronic. The ONLY eating protocol that has proven effective is low carb high fat. I follow the Wheat Belly guidelines; no grains, no sugars. I don't know how it differs from keto, but I do use (or adapt) a lot of recipes from keto websites.
Bonus is I don't get hungry, I have to remember to eat lunch to get plenty of fats in. At 52 I'm wearing the same size jeans as in high school.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

"RideBarefoot said:


> At 52 I'm wearing the same size jeans as in high school.


You officially suck! Just kidding. 

I'm so sorry your lyme disease was mis-diagnosed. But congratulations on pushing on until it got straightened out and I am glad you are doing better.

It's what I keep saying, there is NO one-size-fits-all diet. It's just not happening. Even over the course of our lives our bodies change and what worked 20 years ago probably won't work now.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

This ties back directly to OP.

The below quote is exactly what happened to me and it is great to finally see someone acknowledge it. This is a quote in today's Mercola newsletter. Minger, who is the person being interviewed, is known for her rebuttal of the China Study, which many vegetarians have used to justify vegetarianism. So she is not anti-fat, she is anti too much fat for too long a period of time.

Minger is equally ambivalent about long-term, chronic high-fat consumption, as some of the evidence suggests it may *increase gut permeability and the transport of endotoxin from gram-negative bacteria into the bloodstream*, which increases chronic inflammation and related health problems. (A Critical Look at 'The China Study' and Other Diet Plans)​
This is what caused my massive BP spikes, but I have yet to find a doctor that pays attention to what I am telling them. All it would take is one of these doctors listening and then using my strategy with other patients experience spikes to see if my protocol works. If it does, the doctor could gain great fame and fortune for a non drug treatment for some BP spikes.

On reason grains are often a problem is they are one of the causes of gut permeability. Lectins are another. And Minger points out fat can also be a cause. So if you do Paleo, for example, you are probably OK on grains, might be on lectins, but could be in real danger from fat. My personal opinion is saturated fat is the culprit, not unsaturated fat.

Fat cycling seems to be the current trend. Go keto for a while and then cycle off for a while, but still stay away from sugar and grains.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Argh. Just ARGH.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Argh. Just ARGH.


I understand completely.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Have a new doctor and just saw her today to go over labs from 1st visit. One lab confirmed exactly what I have said in this thread. For me to have the reaction to saturated fat that I have, I must have a leaky gut - even without having typical symptoms.

In the past, a doctor would just ask you for symptoms and if enough matched, you would be diagnosed with a leaky gut. A fairly new test (which is paid for under medicare) measures Zonulin (a protein that modulates the permeability of tight junctions between cells of the wall of the digestive tract) to see if a patient does have a leaky gut. (Wikipedia)

The test confirmed I have a leaky gut. Another test for a hormone called alpha MSH showed mine to be low. One thing that happens when aMSH is low is that the person has difficulty burning fat and instead burns protein. They also have low energy and will crash after heavy exertion and take as much as 2 days to recover. This has been the story of my life.

So in just 1 doctor's visit, she honed in on 2 things that appear to be causing my fatigue problem and weight problem. Now to try to fix them.

ETA: Think about what this means for people on a high fat diet that have a leaky gut and low aMSH. Instead of feeling energized, like most people on a high fat diet report, the longer the person stays high fat, the sicker and more fatigued they get.


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## RideBarefoot (Jun 29, 2008)

As with so many other things, this is probably a "what works for one..." type of situation. I never had my alpha MSH tested, but was diagnosed leaky gut. It wasn't until the high fat, low carb regimen that things began to get under control. Before that, yes, exhaustion was the norm.

I hope you figure out quickly what works for you and start feeling healthier.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

The beauty of the flexible diet is that you can take "what works for you" and use it to get guaranteed results of weight loss. Or weight gain, if that is what you want. Or you can stay at a weight. Or you can lose weight in the form of fat and add weight in the form of muscle. You can do whatever you want and eat whatever you want. Like ice cream, eat ice cream. Like white bread, eat white bread. Sugar in your coffee, pizza, cheeseburger, sure, and you won't gain an ounce from it, unless you want to.

Too much fat bothers you, eat carbs that don't bother you. Scared of carbs, eat fat. Always get your protein, the exact amount that you need. It's a beautiful thing, and it works for everybody that uses it.


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