# Not happy!!!



## queenspromise (Jul 9, 2013)

I come from a background of my mother breeding and showing dogs... I worked as a Vet tech..I also participate competively in French Ring with my Malinois.. I have bought and I know my mother has bought some of her show dogs sight unseen...just pictures, and descriptions by the breeders... You say what you want and are looking for.. the goals you are wanting to accomplish with the dog... And 9/10 times we both got exactly what we asked for... I have had breeders tell me that they didn't have what I wanted right now and referred me to other breeders that might or else I patiently waited till "THE ONE" came up in the litter that they felt was what I was looking for... Never in the 20 years have I ever been screwed over... And that is buying in the US and Europe...

My gripe... we have switched gears my Mals are older and we have moved to a large farm... our livestock is getting picked off a few daily and I tried decoys and motion detercor water sprays, noise decoys... the list goes on and on... As I never felt comfortable leaving a dog outside all day.. My Mals are good with the livestock when I am around but not trustworthy alone nor would I feel comfortable to ever let them have free range of the property JUST IN CASE!!! So I researched Livestock guardian dogs... and I did my research... I finally found a guy who was about 8 hours from me through a neighbor that was getting a pup... I talked extensively with the breeder on the phone, as well as saw pictures... The Great Pyr parents work outside on 300 acre sheep farm, pups born outside, exposed to sheep since birth etc etc... Well sounds legit.... My tip off... in all the pictures the background is a barn... I didn't see sheep.. I questioned this, and the answer was of course...they brought all the puppies in to get the phots taken..easier.. ok... Day 1 I could see the puppy was bonded to people... I did keep her for 6 months but I could NOT get her to ever want to stay with livestock... My neighbor who has livestock guardian dogs for over 40 years and is experience with them.. had the same issues.. He kept the dog and I think regrets it... Of course the breeder won't ake my calls nor respond to my e mails... NICE...

I did end up getting another Great Pyr just by fluke, an adult that was being rehomed due to sale and retirement of the owners from the sheep farm. And she has worked out PERFECTLY!!! I was so happy... I decided to get 1 more dog as they work better in pairs and we are now only having bear issues...the rest of the predators stay away...! I had a lady contact me about her Akbash X Great Pyr puppies telling me that she saw my ad and they are perfect for what I am looking for, and she is being picky as she wants working farm homes only...Good sign.. I had to fly this pup to me...but she sent pictures and video... supposedly the dog was with stock from Day 1 as well... the pictures and video do show stock around.. I told her about my previous puppy experience and she said she guaranteed I would be happy with any of them.. They chase off Grizzlies... So I bought her... Yes I believe she is use to being ouside...and she has no problems being left alone...But she hates being left at the barn pen I made for her seperate area but in with the livestock... She digs massive holes to get out...and I find her asleep on the porch by the door she is perfectly happy when she can see us through the window on the proch... She jumps and then climbs to get out after I had to put bricks around her pen to keep her in... The pup prefer to be with people 100 percent.. and loves following you around while you do chores...FARM DOG - YES... LIVESTOCK GUARDIAN DOG- No not at this point.... I can see a huge difference in the way they think...my adult Great Pyr.. will come over to you to say Hi ( if you are lucky), and off she goes to do her job if that is a perimeter checks or check on poultry pens..etc etc.. I could call till I am blue in the face...which I don't bother... But she acts like she is deaf...she is on a mission and that is her job it trumps everything else.. that is just the way it is... My friends call her the antisocial dog... we are just use to much more people pleasing type of dogs..usually that is what you are looking for..these dogs are bred to be exactly the way they are..independent thinkers...

I called the breeder who actually had the courage to answer the phone... did admitt to me that the dogs slept on her porch.. and that they had the run of the farm and that they are livestock guardian dogs because they do keep predators away when they come on the property... I agree with her to a point..but I explained when you have fencing and it is just not one HUGE open space the dog needs to stay with the animals...My house doesn't need guarding... the animals do... And I was not happy as I explained my farm set up very clearly as well as my expectations before buying a pup to see if it would be a good fit...

From my experience... at least in my area... if the dog has any breed in it that might be suited for livestock guarding people LABEL them livestock guardian dogs even if they are not... good marketing ..instead of saying big friendly farm dog for sale.. up the money by putting livestock guarding dog in the title instead... If you are going to purchase a dog it seems most people are less then truthful and I will only ever buy another with me seeing the dog at their farm... No matter how much you speak with them and are very exact on your explaination of expectaions...they will tell you what they need to to make the deal go through... Just my experience and thought I would share it so nobody else has to go through it..

As for the puppy...I have not given up on her... She does show guarding the property... so I have built an even better pen with the livestock for her.... And I have found a few much more experience livestock guardian people that have come out to look at her and watch her, and give me some tips on trying to get her to bond as well as I can...and bring more of the instinct out... And she has a good influence of my other livestock guardian dog who will hopefully influence her... But I do realize that she will never be what I was wanting...

Thanks for listening all!!!


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

One of the down sides to buying lgds is that there are really no tests out there like some other breeds. A few good examples might be herding or hunting breeds that have performance competitions. Any joe with a pair, 3 sheep and 2 acres can claim to be a lgd breeder. 
You are depending on the breeder to give his/her honest evaluation of their dogs. Hopefully they give you the ups as well as downs. Many breeders nowadays consider a lgd basically a guard dog, that happens to guard the livestock that live on the property/home he is protecting. 
There is a difference between a dog that bonds with the stock and protects it over everything else and a dog that just patrols the property. Before I ended up with the two I have now I went through a few adults who had their issues(a couple were rescues). One was a wanderer, two stayed by the house only, and another was a hunter(always out hunting coyotes instead of staying with her flock). One I have to say was just right. No matter where his sheep were he was protecting them even though he had health issues. He was a borrowed dog too, so I had to give him back. He did show me what a good lgd is though. Now I have two who are dedicated to protecting their livestock, over me or the house. This is what I consider truly a livestock guardian. 
It sounds like you may have at least found your good dogs, and even though disappointing have learned from your washouts.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I am sorry you've experienced such disappointments in your purchases; and you apparently went to great length to get the dog/pup that sounded right for your place.

I've not all the experiences some have in this forum with LGD; however, I did spend a lot of time (over a year a half) researching and talking with breeders. It became obvious many were telling me what they thought I wanted to hear. It also became obvious many were wanting to control the pup "after" it was sold to me. It also became clear many who breed LGDs do not know how each pup will turn out. All this I can understand; and that is why going to look at the place from which you're purchasing your pup and seeing that pup's parents on the job is important. (Even then pups can differ in temperament just like any other dog; and that pup's personal experiences will affect its developing character.) Getting an older dog (even a pup that has been working with its parents among their charges for several months) is a very smart thing for anyone wanting to get an LGD to do.

Your pup is apparently quite young; so you may actually have a good working dog in the making. (Don't let its wanting out of that pen fool you. It may only be its young age and its need to feel safe that is causing it not to want to stay around the animals you want it to guard. I learned this from personal experience with my little LGD.)

How old is your pup? How old is that LGD you state is making a good guardian for your stock? Does that old dog object to the pup being with it? One thing I did to teach a GSD...not LGD...who was an alpha wanting to do what she wanted to do with all the goats/chickens was attach her leash to the sturdy collar of the "mix" (Anatolian/chow/lab/wolf) dog who was already guarding the animals. This worked! Of course, my place is only 6 acres and I could make sure the leash didn't get caught on anything. I also did not have large predators to deal with because the "mix" had already intimidated everything around.

Hope I've helped a little. As mentioned above, my experience with the LGD breeds and their developmental stages is limited to what I'm learning with my little Karakachan.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

wendle said:


> One of the down sides to buying lgds is that there are really no tests out there like some other breeds. A few good examples might be herding or hunting breeds that have performance competitions. Any joe with a pair, 3 sheep and 2 acres can claim to be a lgd breeder.
> You are depending on the breeder to give his/her honest evaluation of their dogs. Hopefully they give you the ups as well as downs. Many breeders nowadays consider a lgd basically a guard dog, that happens to guard the livestock that live on the property/home he is protecting.
> There is a difference between a dog that bonds with the stock and protects it over everything else and a dog that just patrols the property. Before I ended up with the two I have now I went through a few adults who had their issues(a couple were rescues). One was a wanderer, two stayed by the house only, and another was a hunter(always out hunting coyotes instead of staying with her flock). One I have to say was just right. No matter where his sheep were he was protecting them even though he had health issues. He was a borrowed dog too, so I had to give him back. He did show me what a good lgd is though. Now I have two who are dedicated to protecting their livestock, over me or the house. This is what I consider truly a livestock guardian.
> It sounds like you may have at least found your good dogs, and even though disappointing have learned from your washouts.


This is the best post I have seen in here for a long time!


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

As long as your dogs are close enough to hear each other, if one goes after a bear they all will. Dogs hate bears. In the book, _Travels With Charlie,_ Steinbeck was mortified that his sissy standard poodle attacked a bear. I'm just saying, that if your _real_ LGD went after a bear I think the others would follow. Even dogs that normally don't go after predators will gang up with another that does.


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

When you got pups that were spot on, site unseen from those breeders. Their previous work, reputation, and caliber of dog quality, all spoke volumes before you ever contacted them. Had the same criteria been used in the search for a LGD, (I think it would have been a long time) you would have had much better results.
Being from a show family you know the old line, No matter how long you stare at the dog it is not going to change.
PS: I have in Double R American Bulldog kennels, a male that took over 4 years for me to find what I was looking for, and 2 females that were searched out for over 2 years and a couple thousand litters.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

This all sounds so familiar. I've seen the same thing hpapen so many times with horses and other dog breeds. I think there key phrase is 'The breeder kept telling me what I wanted to hear." That seems to be the case so often. Reading this makes me realize how lucky we've been with our Pyrs. I'm afraid in 90% of the time these days finding a good LGD is a crap shoot. It's the same Labs that have good marking/retrieving ability, Beagles and Spaniels that will actually hunt or LGDs that have the instinctive traits needed to successfully guard stock. The only advice I can offer is to put the dogs in a position where they have to stay with the stock. At least that gives them the chance to develop the instinctive traits they do have.

ETA- the vast majority of Pyrs I've seen are not LGDs at all, they're pets out of puppy mills. Finding a rescue that has the instinct is a 100% crap shoot.


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