# What are they teaching in schools?



## MushCreek (Jan 7, 2008)

I did my good deed today, and bought some Girl Scout cookies on my way out of the lumber yard. The girls selling them were probably 'tweens'; I'd say about 12. I bought 4 boxes @ $3.50, so the total was $14.00. I gave them a 20, and they got into a big debate about the amount of change. One said $7.00, the other thought it was $7.50. The sad thing is, they knew the total was $14.00! Are kids today not able to do basic subtraction? The adult-in-charge talked them through it, and they still looked confused. Wow.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

They don't teach math the way they used to, that's for sure. Do you remember being drilled by teachers on your multiplication facts? 4 x 6, 4 x 3, 4 x 9, rapid-fire and you had to answer immediately? Yeah, they don't do that any more. My daughters learned "count by's" which means they had to go to the teacher and recite the "count by" 3's: 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21... When I ask my kids "What's 3 times 9?" they have to go thru their "count by's" until they hit the right answer :shrug: ???


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## foaly (Jan 14, 2008)

Another reason I homeschool my sons. Math needs to be taught repetitiously, over and over. That's just the way it is. Practice, practice, practice. May be dry as dirt but my sons understand it.

If you can't do basic math in life, you're pretty much sunk or dependent on someone else to count change for you.....except that the cash register will now tell you how much change to give back. <duh>


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

I'm functional in math, but if I try to think fast without figuring, I will usually screw it up.


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## navygirl (Oct 23, 2005)

A college student I work with asked me what 30% of $12.99 was. I handed her a pencil and paper and told her she is a college student... figure it out. She looked at me dumb-founded and said "but I'm an English Lit major". Just.... wow.....


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

I went through the same thing, except I bought 5 boxes. I had to tell the girl how to give me the change. Sad, really.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

One spring when DS was about 3, we were at the local feed store. I was about to pay and the one kid working was congratulating the other for graduating high school that week. Then the power went out. Those two took 20 minutes to add up my total and then figure out my change. I had been leaning towards homeschooling but that sealed the deal. DS is doing great and knows math, to boot.


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## Rainy (Jan 21, 2010)

no basic math skills taught here at our schools either.. in grade school there is a box that each number goes in, one problem i swear can take a full page of paper.
My Hubby is teaching my 15 year old how to make change.... very sad..


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Where I come from, the kids in the second grade are still adding single digit numbers!!!! Our home schooled daughter, who is 7, is getting to the thousands, and for fun I have given her a few "million" problems, which she is tickled with. Daddy, too many numbers!!! Then she excitedly adds the millions.

I am appalled, yet relieved that we made this decision. A lot of other parents are thinking, HUH??????????????


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

tinknal said:


> I'm functional in math, but if I try to think fast without figuring, I will usually screw it up.


Since I had a stroke my math is a bit rusty. I found out that I can't do the math to figure out what my changes or add something up with out a paper and pencil. That is why I always carry a paper and pencil. I also have trouble counting money. I used to be able to do it all in my head I now can do it on paper.


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## Sparkey (Oct 23, 2004)

I was fortunate to go to a Catholic grade school between 1955-1963

The good Nuns were very persistent about having us students learn addition, subtraction, multiplication & division.
There was no thought of "make little Johnny 'feel good'....the Nuns were kind, but firm. We were there to LEARN...and we did !

Send me a P.M. if you want an earfull on diagramming sentences ... !!!

Charlie


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## B & B Farms (Jan 12, 2011)

Glad I went to HS in the 70's, ask someone to count "back" your change these days, they can't do it!!

Allene


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

I teach math every day. The problem is that many of my students do not pay attention. They sit quietly in Lala land because they could care less about multiplication, division, fractions, decimals, finding the volume of a solid figure, etc.
Yes, there are teachers out there not doing their job, but what about the students not doing theirs?
I can't force a child to WANT to learn, no matter how many time I explain the importance of an education.
I wish people would stop blaming everything on teachers....try doing it for yourself and see how hard it is!!!


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

better question than what are they teaching in schools, why are parents letting their kids grow up idiots?

The teacher has the student (along with 25-30 others) for a period of approx. 5 hours per week. The parent has the ability and possibility to be with the child for 5 hours per day (without the other 25 +) and not to mention the weekends.

So I could agree that the teacher as a whole should receive some blame, proportioned to the amount of time they have, while the parent should receive the majority of blame......after all, they have the most time to impact the child's life.....

So why are parents letting their kids grow up this way??


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Thank you Shanzone. 

A teacher can't open the top and pour it in. Math and English are being taught in schools. We have adults who place no importance on correct English; we have adults who place no importance on Math who are blaming the teachers. Teachers who are overpaid and don't pay for healthcare and don't pay for pension and are idiots - well according to a now infamous governor.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Wife always asks me..." so, 33% off x is what?". Simple answer, I was an accountant. My 3rd grader is doing the math I did in 6th grade (prep school). Guess the world is advancing pretty fast. Soon, my son will beat me hands down.

Matt


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

shanzone2001 said:


> try doing it for yourself and see how hard it is!!!


Heh heh. We are.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Ed Norman said:


> Heh heh. We are.


I didn't mean at home with your own children. I meant in a public school classroom. HUGE difference.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

shanzone2001 said:


> I teach math every day. The problem is that many of my students do not pay attention. They sit quietly in Lala land because they could care less about multiplication, division, fractions, decimals, finding the volume of a solid figure, etc.
> Yes, there are teachers out there not doing their job, but what about the students not doing theirs?
> I can't force a child to WANT to learn, no matter how many time I explain the importance of an education.
> I wish people would stop blaming everything on teachers....try doing it for yourself and see how hard it is!!!


I found out that when they realize the way somebody can cheat them every day they will want to learn math to keep somebody from cheating them and when they realize what they want do do involves math they will want to learn also. If all they do is sit in class and learn every day but don't know what it is for they sit in La La land a lot.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

It is the role of the teacher to explain how it is used in everyday life. When I teach fractions and percentages, I use real life examples.
I can tell them what math is used for and how important it is to learn until I am blue in the face, and some kids will still not care!

I also tell them that they will be ripped off making a purchase if they can't figure out the unit price or what interest rate they are getting. Nope, some still don't care.


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## Tom in TN (Jun 12, 2007)

If a farmer can't farm, he figures out a way to do it or gets out of the business, If a mechanic can't fix cars, he figures out a way to do it or gets out of the business. If a writer can't write, he figures out a way to do it or gets out of the business. If a painter can't paint, he figures out a way to do it or gets out of the business. If a teacher can't teach, he blames someone else.

Tom in TN


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

The difference between mechanics, writers and painters and teachers is that teachers are working with living, breathing creatures who may or not do what you ask them to do.
You are in control of the wrench, paper and pen, and paintbrush. Try controlling a child who doesn't care less about what you are teaching them.
You can't compare apples and oranges.
Ever had a wrench call you bad names? Ever have a paintbrush cuss you out and threaten you? How about a piece of paper throw a chair across the room at you?
Didn't think so.


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## Terri in WV (May 10, 2002)

We went to a little thing last year and there was a hs girl taking the money. Adults $2.00, kids $1.00. There were 2 of us adults and 3 kids. She told me it'd be $9.00. No, I don't think so. She then said "oh, that's right, it'll be $8.00." I told her that unless they changed how math was done since I was in school that that wasn't right either. I ended up having to tell her how much we owed:shocked:.

I don't just see it with kids though. I've been at 50% sales racks and will usually always hear someone say "I wonder how much it will make this?".:doh: I've also had to try and explain to a few teachers how to do simple percentages in their heads.


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## Tom in TN (Jun 12, 2007)

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. If you are a self-admitted failure at your profession, maybe you need to try a different profession.

Tom in TN


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

shanzone2001 said:


> The difference between mechanics, writers and painters and teachers is that teachers are working with living, breathing creatures who may or not do what you ask them to do.


Alright, then substitute lion tamers, drill sergeants, flight instructors, bronc busters, show dog handlers, prison guards, bouncers in bars...


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

shanzone2001 said:


> The difference between mechanics, writers and painters and teachers is that teachers are working with living, breathing creatures who may or not do what you ask them to do.
> You are in control of the wrench, paper and pen, and paintbrush. Try controlling a child who doesn't care less about what you are teaching them.
> You can't compare apples and oranges.
> Ever had a wrench call you bad names? Ever have a paintbrush cuss you out and threaten you? How about a piece of paper throw a chair across the room at you?
> Didn't think so.


That is the way kids are brought up today. They are in charge and teachers are a necessary evil to them. I will never abuse a child but discipline them is my right. A kid will never cuss me more than once, He will not threaten me more than once, He will never throw a chair across the room more than one. I used to be a Security Guard and many times a kid would say I am a minor and you can't lay a hand on me. I would grab the neck of his shirt pull him to me and say who told you that lie. Usually things would quieten down after that.There is a difference in abusing a child and discipline him. I have been called to account for my actions and never had any thing come back on me.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

I agree that there are some teachers who do not belong in the classoom. My point is that no matter how good a teacher is, we can't force a child do learn if they do not want to. I can't open up their brain and pour the information inside. It takes effort on my part and theirs.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Old Vet said:


> That is the way kids are brought up today. They are in charge and teachers are a necessary evil to them. I will never abuse a child but discipline them is my right. A kid will never cuss me more than once, He will not threaten me more than once, He will never throw a chair across the room more than one. I used to be a Security Guard and many times a kid would say I am a minor and you can't lay a hand on me. I would grab the neck of his short pull him to me and say who told you that lie. Usually things would quieten down after that.There is a difference in abusing a child and discipline him. I have been called to account for my actions and never had any thing come back on me.


There is very little teachers can do as far as discipline. If I did what you said you did then I would be fired.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

shanzone2001 said:


> There is very little teachers can do as far as discipline. If I did what you said you did then I would be fired.


I realize that. That is why I never wanted to teach. I used to be a good teacher for older men and women but not until they were 18.


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## navygirl (Oct 23, 2005)

So what is it about "these days" as opposed to "the old days" that is so much more difficult (when it comes to teaching)? Seems to me that the older generations all learned the basics and retained them just fine. I've never seen a 50 year old person that couldn't count change and do simple math. I'm pretty sure that some of them didn't want to be in school and some couldn't spend much time in school because they had to assist the family on the farm. So they had even less time in school and yet learned more (or better).... hmmmm... I'm just not sure I buy "the kids don't want to learn"... I wasn't Miss Pollyanna in school and yet I can do simple math and count change just fine (I'm 43, btw).


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## Tom in TN (Jun 12, 2007)

When a professional confronts an obstacle to success, he overcomes the obstacle because he is innovative, determined, and driven to succeed. When a hireling confronts an obstacle, he blames his inability to overcome the obstacle on someone else.

No one is perfect. No one succeeds at everything they attempt. But blaming someone else for one's failure is a sure mark of a person who's willing to accept failure. We need professionals in every area of life that won't accept failure regardless of how hard it is to succeed.

Teachers --- professionals or hirelings?

Tom in TN


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

navygirl said:


> So what is it about "these days" as opposed to "the old days" that is so much more difficult (when it comes to teaching)? Seems to me that the older generations all learned the basics and retained them just fine. I've never seen a 50 year old person that couldn't count change and do simple math. I'm pretty sure that some of them didn't want to be in school and some couldn't spend much time in school because they had to assist the family on the farm. So they had even less time in school and yet learned more (or better).... hmmmm... I'm just not sure I buy "the kids don't want to learn"... I wasn't Miss Pollyanna in school and yet I can do simple math and count change just fine (I'm 43, btw).


Not at all. Kids now think they are the reason that things happen. I found out at a young age that I was only apart of what happen around me. I also had respect for older persons. That does not happen today. The kids now think that they can not be disciplined at all. It is a wake up call when they become adults and find out that police and other adults can do something they thought was impossible.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Are you seriously asking what is different about the kids today? Lack of respect, lack of supervision, lack of parent involvement, lack of discipline....

Tom, saying that students and parents need to be more involved in the educational process is not blaming. It is stating a fact. 
Students who focus on classroom instruction and have support at home perform at a higher rate than those who do not. The teacher is one part of the puzzle.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

bluemoonluck said:


> They don't teach math the way they used to, that's for sure. Do you remember being drilled by teachers on your multiplication facts? 4 x 6, 4 x 3, 4 x 9, rapid-fire and you had to answer immediately? Yeah, they don't do that any more. My daughters learned "count by's" which means they had to go to the teacher and recite the "count by" 3's: 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21... When I ask my kids "What's 3 times 9?" they have to go thru their "count by's" until they hit the right answer :shrug: ???


Anyone remember the 'flash cards' w/muliplication tables? Do they not do that anymore?


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## ninny (Dec 12, 2005)

The difference is those kids that can't do simple math or make change are probably a whiz on computers or at programming electronics. If you gave them a calculator they could probably whip out the answers in a second. This is the electronic age where they're not required to think for themselves when they have a computer or calculator handy. It would be nice if they could do it without the aid of electronics but that's the way they're raised today. I'll bet most of todays adults can't hold a candle to their teenager when it comes to texting on their cell phone. I've seen some of those kids texting and their fingers are flying. I have trouble just remembering what speed dial number that I've assigned to different people.

.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Sparkey said:


> I was fortunate to go to a Catholic grade school between 1955-1963
> 
> The good Nuns were very persistent about having us students learn addition, subtraction, multiplication & division.
> There was no thought of "make little Johnny 'feel good'....the Nuns were kind, but firm. We were there to LEARN...and we did !
> ...


Wow, Sparkey, did you by chance go to St Xavier's too???


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

shanzone2001 said:


> I agree that there are some teachers who do not belong in the classoom. My point is that no matter how good a teacher is, we can't force a child do learn if they do not want to. I can't open up their brain and pour the information inside. It takes effort on my part and theirs.


I can see the problems in schools, its discipline.
But-how is it that kids get OUT of school-as in GRADUATE-and not be able to read & do math? When we all went to school, you had to be proficient in SOME things b/4 going to the next grade!


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## MushCreek (Jan 7, 2008)

I'm not blaming the teachers, I'm blaming the system. My mother was a teacher, and I have a friend who is a teacher. They are both very frustrated by the system. When I was in school, if you couldn't do the work, you didn't pass. A tiny group of kids never did get it, and were passed to get rid of them, but 99.9% of the kids did eventually 'get it' and applied themselves. I've heard of schools allowing students to re-test after flunking a test. I never got that chance. You flunked, you flunked. Better luck next time.

Don't even get me started about spelling! I see errors on TV, in the papers, on brochures (including one from a school system), etc.


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## nebula5 (Feb 4, 2003)

shanzone2001 said:


> I teach math every day. The problem is that many of my students do not pay attention. They sit quietly in Lala land because they could care less about multiplication, division, fractions, decimals, finding the volume of a solid figure, etc.
> Yes, there are teachers out there not doing their job, but what about the students not doing theirs?
> I can't force a child to WANT to learn, no matter how many time I explain the importance of an education.
> I wish people would stop blaming everything on teachers....try doing it for yourself and see how hard it is!!!


I agree with you, and until that particular math skill is relevant to the child's life, it doesn't fully make sense to them. Most kids at age 12 have not had to make change, unless they have a paper route or have been taught by their parents.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

MushCreek said:


> I did my good deed today, and bought some Girl Scout cookies on my way out of the lumber yard. The girls selling them were probably 'tweens'; I'd say about 12. I bought 4 boxes @ $3.50, so the total was $14.00. I gave them a 20, and they got into a big debate about the amount of change. One said $7.00, the other thought it was $7.50. The sad thing is, they knew the total was $14.00! Are kids today not able to do basic subtraction? The adult-in-charge talked them through it, and they still looked confused. Wow.



Shame on the parents.
I taught my kids how to count change when they were babies.....and continued to teach them how to do this as they got older.
They grocery shopped with me so I taught them how to calculate via unit pricing, how to figure sales %'s and how to count change.

I didn't do this because I was soooooo much better than anyone else. I do not know how to use a calculator. I have always had to do it in my head. So that's how I taught my kids.
It's a life skill they will use every day.

Now, everything is on a computer, calculator, cash register. "Machines" to think for you. (I have always been a tech-hater) I have taught the kids "what if the machine breaks.......you STILL need to know how to do it".

Unfortunately, most kids have parents who are in love with technology and totally rely on it....so why wouldn't their kids?

Schools allow calculators now. They have computers, spell check, etc.
There is no need for independent thinking, silly!!


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## upnorthlady (Oct 16, 2009)

shanzone2001 said:


> I agree that there are some teachers who do not belong in the classoom. My point is that no matter how good a teacher is, we can't force a child do learn if they do not want to. I can't open up their brain and pour the information inside. It takes effort on my part and theirs.


This is true. I think today's kids are way too distracted not only by technology, but by the way schools are set up now. I don't think kids should have cell phones in class, but I know that I am outnumbered here on this point. I think there was a thread about this topic a while back. Kids spend too much time texting, even in class. And kids don't think they have to learn math when there's calculators and computers and iPhones to do the work for them. We didn't like school either when I was a kid, but we didn't have all the distractions back then. 

I once went to a restaurant and the bill came to $9.80. It was a 10% discount day for seniors, and the kid at the cash register (who had earrings in places earrings should not be) said to me: "Wait, I'll go get my calculator". I told him: "Forget the calculator - just subtract 98 cents". He looked at me in sheer amazement and said: "Wow, you are fast"! Sigh.......I don't think that kid paid much attention in math class either.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I could find reasons to blame the teacher but the real problem is the system they work with. A problem many of them brought on themselves by accepting the all new educating methods as improvements over the old methods that worked. Supervision without authority is useless. That goes in the business world and the classroom. Without the tool of discipline a teachers hands are tied. I was also educated by Nuns. Many educators today would be horrified to know that my rear end paid the price for a lax attitude. I received a great education. Many teachers are frustrated by the parents who don't care and take no interest however parents who do care are equally frustrated by the schools. Some waking up has to happen on both sides of the fence. We are raising a generation of grazers.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2011)

shanzone2001 said:


> I teach math every day. The problem is that many of my students do not pay attention. They sit quietly in Lala land because they could care less about multiplication, division, fractions, decimals, finding the volume of a solid figure, etc.
> Yes, there are teachers out there not doing their job, but what about the students not doing theirs?
> I can't force a child to WANT to learn, no matter how many time I explain the importance of an education.
> I wish people would stop blaming everything on teachers....try doing it for yourself and see how hard it is!!!





Old Vet said:


> That is the way kids are brought up today. They are in charge and teachers are a necessary evil to them. I will never abuse a child but discipline them is my right. A kid will never cuss me more than once, He will not threaten me more than once, He will never throw a chair across the room more than one. I used to be a Security Guard and many times a kid would say I am a minor and you can't lay a hand on me. I would grab the neck of his shirt pull him to me and say who told you that lie. Usually things would quieten down after that.There is a difference in abusing a child and discipline him. I have been called to account for my actions and never had any thing come back on me.





navygirl said:


> So what is it about "these days" as opposed to "the old days" that is so much more difficult (when it comes to teaching)? Seems to me that the older generations all learned the basics and retained them just fine. I've never seen a 50 year old person that couldn't count change and do simple math. I'm pretty sure that some of them didn't want to be in school and some couldn't spend much time in school because they had to assist the family on the farm. So they had even less time in school and yet learned more (or better).... hmmmm... I'm just not sure I buy "the kids don't want to learn"... I wasn't Miss Pollyanna in school and yet I can do simple math and count change just fine (I'm 43, btw).


The problem is the break down in society.

Mothers used to be SAHM's, they made their children do their homework. Children were disciplined at school and home, and learned work ethics.

Then the mothers all went to work, and children more or less began raising themselves. When mothers got home, they had to fix supper, do all the cleaning and laundry, and were too tired to devote a lot of time to the children. They began buying the children "things". Society became very focused on material possessions as a source of happiness. It became illegal to discipline children at school, and parents were faced with the possibility of jail time if they spanked their own children. Children lost their motivation to conform to societal mores. They got everything they wanted handed to them.

When THOSE children grew up, they didn't know how to be parents. They spoiled their children as they were spoiled. Their children have cell phones, computers, and electronic games to fill their hours. These children are inundated with electronic entertainment and do not have a motivation to do well in school, nor does anyone try to make them. You CAN'T make them, you might get in trouble with the law!

The US school system is falling behind the rest of the world in international education rankings.

I didn't go to college until my late 20's. One of the professors made an interesting statement one day. He had been teaching college for several decades, and he said that incoming students were graducally getting dumber and dumber through the years. The scale they used for scoring students had to be adjusted downward every few years so that students could pass. I was astonished that they had so many remedial classes for things like math and English for new college students, just trying to get them up to standard enough in basic skills so they'd be able to make it through their other classes.

Our students are not going to learn until society makes some serious changes.

I'm so happy to see the growing homeschooling trend, but unfortunately, there are far too many parents out there who do not have the skills to homeschool even if they had the desire to do so.


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## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

Any teacher who blames the students or thinks that "todays" youth is any different than those of years gone by needs to find a new vocation. What kind of fulfiullment would you have if every kid learned the same way or was an easy keeper? If you have discipline problems in your class its because you dont know how to inspire, lead, or mentor and you have lost control. I have been a substitute teacher for years and its amazing how unruly some of the classes are but how quickly you can gain control with a bit of firm and fair treatment. Not every kid is going to get it or like school and its foolish to think they will; and in fact we all know some people are just smarter than others in a given subject and that hasnt all of the sudden changed with todays youth. Should they use calculators and computers instead of slide rules and typewriters? Of course they should. Most of these kids can run circles around most of us older people when it comes to technology and its just not realistic or very wise to ignore that.

I am amazed in the same way when people remark how "lucky" we are that our five kids all turned out well and graduated High School as if it was the luck of the draw. It took a lot of effort and consistent discipline and encouragement (and I have never spanked or hit my kids ever) and out of the five; one is a brain, one an athlete, one an artist, one a humanist touchy feely type, and the fifth was the worst High School student imaginable and barely graduated but makes more money than I do.

There is nothing wrong with the kids of today except they are subjected to overly accomodating school systems that try to turn High Schools into mini college campuses and we have accepted mediocrity in everything from teacher performance to student achievement. If you set the bar low the student will do what is needed to meet that and little more, if you set the bar high they will try to reach that too.

But blaming the students as if they had a generational genetic mutation is a sad indictment on the state of our education system and I certainly understand why more and more people choose to home school. It also explains why teachers in general are so wedded to tenure and against performance based measures.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> I could find reasons to blame the teacher but the real problem is the system they work with. A problem many of them brought on themselves by accepting the all new educating methods as improvements over the old methods that worked. Supervision without authority is useless. That goes in the business world and the classroom. Without the tool of discipline a teachers hands are tied. I was also educated by Nuns. Many educators today would be horrified to know that my rear end paid the price for a lax attitude. I received a great education. Many teachers are frustrated by the parents who don't care and take no interest however parents who do care are equally frustrated by the schools. Some waking up has to happen on both sides of the fence. We are raising a generation of grazers.


I also, was tought by nuns. And a few 'lay' teachers b/c there were not enuf nuns. Those non-nun teachers got paid a pittance but were dedicated. 

One thing differs here, we were NEVER hit. Never. There were some classroom disruptions, but I think it must've been handled out of the classroom, after being sent to the principal. Then you got home & probably were spanked!

And another thing, there were 60 kids in ONE ROOM. All the 4th grade and 1/2 the 5th. The poor nun had to teach both grades, separately. One grade was expected to to homework, etc, while the other grade listened, then viseversa.


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## ninny (Dec 12, 2005)

One way to get kids more into math is to make their allowance based on their math skills. Give them a number like $5. Tell them that their allowance will be 20% of that and ask them what their allowance should be. For every wrong answer tell them that you will deduct 10% of what their allowance should be. I'll bet it won't be long before they're good at both percentages and making change. 

.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Sparkey said:


> I was fortunate to go to a Catholic grade school between 1955-1963
> 
> The good Nuns were very persistent about having us students learn addition, subtraction, multiplication & division.
> There was no thought of "make little Johnny 'feel good'....the Nuns were kind, but firm. We were there to LEARN...and we did !
> ...


I went to a public school from 1957 thru 1969. Then I went to work, and later went into business for myself. I have had lots of jobs doing lots of things over the years and I have yet to run up on a sentence needing to be diagrammed!


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Elementary education used to be building on the basics learned at home. Parents sent their kids off to first grade to L-E-A-R-N, Reading, Writing and Arithematic. Now they are sent off to be baby sat so the parents don't have to do it. At 2 to 3 yrs old with NO idea what will be expected of them. Now the kid knows that the teacher is "dumb", they learned it from the parent, yes parent. Now many kids have no respect for anybody, not just the teacher or parent but everyone in the educational system. A teacher isn't repected as an expert....They are a lazy, dumb, overpaid, selfish "govenment empoyee". It is so bad the parent needs to go to school before the kid is sent so the parent knows what is expected of THEM before the kid can be taught. R-E-S-P-E-C-T....James


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## Stephen in SOKY (Jun 6, 2006)

Giving the average cashier the exact coins needed so that you can get bills back in change really throws a wrench in the works.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

shanzone2001 said:


> The difference between mechanics, writers and painters and teachers is that teachers are working with living, breathing creatures who may or not do what you ask them to do.
> You are in control of the wrench, paper and pen, and paintbrush. Try controlling a child who doesn't care less about what you are teaching them.
> You can't compare apples and oranges.
> Ever had a wrench call you bad names? Ever have a paintbrush cuss you out and threaten you? How about a piece of paper throw a chair across the room at you?
> Didn't think so.


This is why education should be privatized. If students don't want to be there, they could be dismissed from the program and it's their problem.


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Tom in TN said:


> When a professional confronts an obstacle to success, he overcomes the obstacle because he is innovative, determined, and driven to succeed. When a hireling confronts an obstacle, he blames his inability to overcome the obstacle on someone else.
> 
> No one is perfect. No one succeeds at everything they attempt. But blaming someone else for one's failure is a sure mark of a person who's willing to accept failure. We need professionals in every area of life that won't accept failure regardless of how hard it is to succeed.
> 
> ...


Teaching is an art using science. And, you may quote me. 

Usually, failure nor success are 100% in any given classroom.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Ed Norman said:


> Alright, then substitute lion tamers, drill sergeants, flight instructors, bronc busters, show dog handlers, prison guards, bouncers in bars...


Folks who do those jobs can all remove "students" from the setting and find better ones. Even prison guards (not much a prisoner can do in lockdown).


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

tinknal said:


> Folks who do those jobs can all remove "students" from the setting and find better ones. Even prison guards (not much a prisoner can do in lockdown).


They can remove some of the problems, but at some point, they will need to show results or explain why they aren't getting their job done. Or look for a more suitable vocation for themselves.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Win07_351 said:


> This is why education should be privatized. If students don't want to be there, they could be dismissed from the program and it's their problem.



OOOOOOOOO good idea!!!


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## CountryWannabe (May 31, 2004)

Originally Posted by *navygirl * 
So what is it about "these days" as opposed to "the old days" that is so much more difficult (when it comes to teaching)?


I think a lot of it is the parents' attitude. I wouldn't have dared to do some of the things the kids are doing in school nowadays. Not only would I have been in serious trouble at school - my mom would have ensured that I learned the respect lesson or else...

I used to be a zoo docent. I couldn't believe the behaviour of some of the kids when I would do school visits. I, for one, do not envy teachers nowadays

Mary


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Ed Norman said:


> Alright, then substitute lion tamers, drill sergeants, flight instructors, bronc busters, show dog handlers, prison guards, bouncers in bars...


You can't fire kids, you can't euthanize them, you can't lock em up and forget about them.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Txrider said:


> You can't fire kids, you can't euthanize them, you can't lock em up and forget about them.


But you do have to produce results if you take the job, not just excuses.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Ed Norman said:


> But you do have to produce results if you take the job, not just excuses.


I do produce results, but when Johnny marks "A" for every answer on the test because he doesn't care, then it is my fault?


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## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

shanzone2001 said:


> I do produce results, but when Johnny marks "A" for every answer on the test because he doesn't care, then it is my fault?


You know, nothing personal but you seem to have such disdain for your students that its oozing out in your posts. Not all schools are like what you are describing and certainly most students in my experience are not like that. Do you think your just burned out with the grade level you teach or your particular school may have a poor administration? Is it the mandatory testing requirements that are the problem?

Sometimes switching it up can revive a person and give a new perspective.


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## DavidUnderwood (Jul 5, 2007)

All this seems to imply that when we were
all in school, we were lil angels. That aint
how it was. Not in the sixties. There were
bullies. Bigshots kids who could do no wrong.
One boy in my second grade room came to
school drunk fairly often, because his dad
made him drink with him. He came in one
morning bruised, been bleeding, and had not
even been cleaned up. His "dad" beat him.
On in to hi-school, the real good athletes got
a free pass. Especially football players.
Didn't do their work, bullied others, groped
girls in hall ways,etc. Some graduated and 
could not read, write, or do basic math. I know
illiterate people in their 50's, 60's and 70's.
Who's fault was all that? No simple answer.
Maybe in part, it was teachers and school admin.
Also, the parents were to blame. Some DID NOT CARE.
We tend to think society has gone to hell.
Friends, it never was perfect.


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

salmonslayer said:


> You know, nothing personal but you seem to have such disdain for your students that its oozing out in your posts. Not all schools are like what you are describing and certainly most students in my experience are not like that. Do you think your just burned out with the grade level you teach or your particular school may have a poor administration? Is it the mandatory testing requirements that are the problem?
> 
> Sometimes switching it up can revive a person and give a new perspective.


That's what I was thinking. 

Shan, how can you possibly get through to those kids if you dislike them so as your posts seem to indicate? They can pick up on that, you know.

And yes, it is your fault if Johnny answers A to every question on your test. I can't imagine any of my former teachers letting a student get away with that. 

Aside from some rare exceptions NO kid has EVER wanted to be in school or do any sort of school work, but, somehow, the teacher made sure the kids got taught. If what you're doing now isn't working, change.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

shanzone2001 said:


> I do produce results, but when Johnny marks "A" for every answer on the test because he doesn't care, then it is my fault?


"My job would be a cinch if it wasn't for all these dumb kids. Why, I bet right around half the class is below average."


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

If I were a PS teacher, I would be looking for a position in a private school or college. 

Shan - have you looked at teaching in private school? Perhaps a college prep school? There is a world of difference in the college prep schools and the public schools and you might be surprised how much you would like it.

Of course the money isn't as good, but the aggravation factor is much less as well! Most kids in college prep WANT to be there, parents are really involved, and the class sizes are small. 

Something to think about at any rate. I fear the public school system is broken and there is no fix for it short of dismantling the entire system and starting fresh. Anytime one has to deal with metal detectors and bullet proof glass in the reception area..it's time to rethink the process. (those are both evident at the local high school as opposed to no locks on lockers, open door policy at the private school).


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## Beeman (Dec 29, 2002)

Private school? That just means the parents have money to throw at their problem kids, unfortunately the parents and their money are part of the problem.
College? Have you been to a college lately? The majority are there because where else would they be? It's expected that they go to college and their parents will sell their kidneys and hock the house to give them an education so they get a good job. Most couldn't use good job in a sentence, forget about getting one. Parents involved in college? Why?

Face it folks we've bred to the weakest and then they didn't raise them.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

salmonslayer said:


> You know, nothing personal but you seem to have such disdain for your students that its oozing out in your posts. Not all schools are like what you are describing and certainly most students in my experience are not like that. Do you think your just burned out with the grade level you teach or your particular school may have a poor administration? Is it the mandatory testing requirements that are the problem?
> 
> Sometimes switching it up can revive a person and give a new perspective.


You are correct if you sense my frustration. I give 110% to get my students to perform at or above grade level, but there are always a few who just don't even try. The reason I am so frustrated is because my students' scores are MY report card. Because of that, I stay after school and teach an intervention class (unpaid) for students who need extra help. The ones who need it the most do not stay because they want to rush home and play video games and watch tv.
It is a common frustration among teachers in my district. What makes it worse is the lack of parental support because the parents do not make their children stay for extra help.
I have no disdain...I am heartbroken for the kids who do not understand that they are setting themselves up for future failure. Every year there are 2 or 3 kids that I want to take home and "rescue" from their horrible home environment. I can only imagine what they have to go home to, so that is why they need to work even harder to make their education work for them.
Once my sixth graders move on to junior high, they will lose the personal attention they receive from having one teacher in a self-contained classroom. So many of them move on and get lost in the system.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

FeralFemale said:


> That's what I was thinking.
> 
> Shan, how can you possibly get through to those kids if you dislike them so as your posts seem to indicate?  They can pick up on that, you know.
> 
> ...


I am curious if any of you are teachers? There are MANY children who love school and enjoy doing work. I make sure they get taught. I put the ones who don't focus in the front row, use positive reinforcement and encourage students to always do their best and not compare themselves with others.

When a child is given a test and decides to randomly mark answers without reading the question, I can tell them to slow down, read each question carefully, visualize, reread, and use elimination strategies (all taught regularly). What I can't do is hold the pencil and mark the answers for them. They have free will.

My suggestion to those who chose to criticize is to spend a day in an inner city classroom with 35 6th graders and then report back what you observed. Honestly, your understanding of the dynamics are very limited. You can't compare your own child's classroom unless you live in the inner city. 

I will continue to teach as long as my evaluations are excellent, my scores are higher than the district average, and I have the highest number of parent requests at the school. Venting frustration about the system does not equate to hating my job or disliking my students.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

The system started going downhill when society started blaming the trachers for children who just don't care and flat out refuse to learn. Tying the school and teacher report card to students grades and graduation rates is just wrong! Students who don't want to learn and disrupt the class are not allowed to be removed from the classroom thanks to legislation. Schools are not allowed to discipline students who refuse to behave or make an attempt to do their school-work. The system of instruction has changed so that parents who do wish to help their children do not understand how to do the work. Giving students partial credit on proficiency tests just for rewriting the equation is wrong. The system is broken and is causing the rift between parents and teachers. At one point in time the parents and the teacher worked together to help the students learn. Now they are blaming each other and the students learn less and less. Many parents do not give the children enough time to do their homework. Many school systems assign too much homework. And now our school district requires that 11th and 12th grade students have a part time job in order to graduate!!!! These children don't have enough time to devote to their homework without the job. I don't see how they can participate in all the activities, work a part time job and study their schoolwork. There aren't enough hours in the day so the kids don't sleep or eat properly. Lack of sleep and a poor diet make adults stupid, just think how this affects growing brains.

ETA: When my kids were in school, even elementary, I couldn't help them with their math. I couldn't understand how it was supposed to be done. If all they needed were correct answers I could have helped but the work had to be done a certain way. Their teachers refused to show me how to do the work. They kept telling me it was their job to teach my children and I wasn't good enough to do their job.


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## upnorthlady (Oct 16, 2009)

Shanzone - You sound like a really good teacher. Don't let the comments of others thinking that you "disdain" your students get to you. Reading between the lines of your posts, I didn't get the sense at all that you didn't like your students. I just got the idea that you were voicing your frustrations with kids today, and they can be tough. I think our society is different than it was 40-50 yrs ago when I went to school. Hang in there. We need lots of good teachers like you.............


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Thank you. It is tough, but most likely the most rewarding career out there!
Shannon


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

What happened to giving f`s ...........


School teachers have it hard...I can say that from the abuse I used to give them......problem is.....I was good at it and made them look foolish, so they just left me alone and I left them alone...along with leaving the other kids who wanted to learn alone and all was well.....


They wanted to skip me ahead a couple of grades a few of times.....but someone said no...... thats when my antics began and I stopped doing the work.

A few teachers were hip and gave me next years books to do, knowing it would keep me learning and keep me out of the other kids hair....even though the school would not recognize the work I did.

Some teachers were meanies and would not conform and say I had to do this years work...so out of rebellion I did nothing or did the entire books worth of work in few weeks and just handed it to them and said leave me alone.

For the teachers that were hip and let me do next years work.....I usually buckled down and did the entire book in about a month....then they let me read books I would bring in class...

I sure am glad the few teachers were hip and I had the oppertunity to learn what I did........sure I get mad at times about being denied to chance to skip 2 grades ahead....but when I went to school allowing the brighter kids to accell was not a big thing......

I even got to attend summer college classes because my next door neighbor was a professor and he recognized what I needed and that was challenged....

He said I did well and was above average for his classes......too bad I quit school and ran away from home before I turned 13.....could have really made myself into to something great......

Oh well, I do fine for myself and make plenty of money and have no problems in life from droping out of school at 13 and starting to work at 14 ........I had a job and a place and a car before I turned 15....even manged to drive untill I was 19 without a drivers licence before getting a ticket....I am fine with my life and happy...but do realize I could have done great things.


Point of the story being...do not forget to recognize the brighter kids and keep them occupied or even suggest they get bumped ahead a grade ... don`t let the bad apples cover your eyes and blind you from the achievers.


All you can do is your best to teach the non learners...life will educate them in time....besides that we need split rim tire changers.......not all people are great achievers and life has a place for all of them....great achievers or not.


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## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

I am very familiar with school systems in Eastern Europe and China and have worked in a school in India. The United States is lost because of our poor school system. It is not the teachers fault, the problem goes a lot deeper than that. Teachers though are the most capable to fix the problem, but they do not try.

"O"


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

salmonslayer said:


> Any teacher who blames the students or thinks that "todays" youth is any different than those of years gone by needs to find a new vocation. What kind of fulfiullment would you have if every kid learned the same way or was an easy keeper? If you have discipline problems in your class its because you dont know how to inspire, lead, or mentor and you have lost control. I have been a substitute teacher for years and its amazing how unruly some of the classes are but how quickly you can gain control with a bit of firm and fair treatment. Not every kid is going to get it or like school and its foolish to think they will; and in fact we all know some people are just smarter than others in a given subject and that hasnt all of the sudden changed with todays youth. Should they use calculators and computers instead of slide rules and typewriters? Of course they should. Most of these kids can run circles around most of us older people when it comes to technology and its just not realistic or very wise to ignore that.
> 
> I am amazed in the same way when people remark how "lucky" we are that our five kids all turned out well and graduated High School as if it was the luck of the draw. It took a lot of effort and consistent discipline and encouragement (and I have never spanked or hit my kids ever) and out of the five; one is a brain, one an athlete, one an artist, one a humanist touchy feely type, and the fifth was the worst High School student imaginable and barely graduated but makes more money than I do.
> 
> ...



amen.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Beeman said:


> Private school? That just means the parents have money to throw at their problem kids, unfortunately the parents and their money are part of the problem.
> College? Have you been to a college lately? The majority are there because where else would they be? It's expected that they go to college and their parents will sell their kidneys and hock the house to give them an education so they get a good job. Most couldn't use good job in a sentence, forget about getting one. Parents involved in college? Why?
> 
> Face it folks we've bred to the weakest and then they didn't raise them.



My son went to private school and he was not a "problem" child, he has held a summer job (started his own lawn care business and computer service business) and has worked every summer and weekends since he was old enough to sit on a lawnmower. That is NOT the reason I put him in private school. There were several reasons, one of which was the public school teacher that taught math told me flat out that she was tenured and "marking time until retirement" when I requested that she add homework, additional help or assistance with my son who was having difficulty in math. She said he would either "get it in the classroom or not and that was our problem". I took my parenting seriously, attending school meetings, volunteering, etc. I got no assistance and my son did well in all other subjects. I finally removed him from school after taking my requests up the chain of command to the school board and superintendent. I faced the fact that frankly they did not care. I also hired a tutor.

Moving a child to private school or homeschooling does not mean parents have a "problem" child. It also does not mean that parents who put children in private school are "rich". I worked full time and part time to pay tuition plus continued to pay school taxes. My son won a scholarship as well to the private school.

He is now in college and yes, he needs a college education otherwise how else will he be able to become a college professor which is what he wants to do. Sorry but I doubt any educational facility will hire someone with just a high school diploma these days.

The college prep school my son attended required a contract that stated behavior rules and educational rules..violate either and out the door the kid was sent. Just as all public schools are not alike, neither are all private schools - but private school gives an option that public schools don't as in "what district do you live in?" sometimes is the determining factor in whether one gets in a good public school or not.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

DavidUnderwood said:


> All this seems to imply that when we were
> all in school, we were lil angels. That aint
> how it was. Not in the sixties. There were
> bullies. Bigshots kids who could do no wrong.
> ...


Where did things fall apart? I'm obviously older than you, but can remember my school days w/clarity.
Were you in elementary school in the 50s or 60s? We were NOT angels, but some semblance of order was maintained. We KNEW how far we could go, we had NO bullies, wouldn't have been tolerated.
Athletes did NOT get a pass, they had to maintain a grade average in order to play sports.

1st 3 grades I was in a small town, small elem. school, 3 rooms. PUBLIC school. 1st & 2nd-one rm. 3rd & 4th & 5th -one rm. 6th 7th 8th in one room. I remember some 8th grade boys who were in for their LAST yr-16 yr olds! They actually looked out for the little kids.

4th grade on I went to a parocial school, we were heck-raisers sometimes & everyone lived thru it, but behaved in class.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

salmonslayer said:


> Any teacher who blames the students or thinks that "todays" youth is any different than those of years gone by needs to find a new vocation. What kind of fulfiullment would you have if every kid learned the same way or was an easy keeper? If you have discipline problems in your class its because you dont know how to inspire, lead, or mentor and you have lost control. I have been a substitute teacher for years and its amazing how unruly some of the classes are but how quickly you can gain control with a bit of firm and fair treatment. Not every kid is going to get it or like school and its foolish to think they will; and in fact we all know some people are just smarter than others in a given subject and that hasnt all of the sudden changed with todays youth. Should they use calculators and computers instead of slide rules and typewriters? Of course they should. Most of these kids can run circles around most of us older people when it comes to technology and its just not realistic or very wise to ignore that.


Amen!



> I am amazed in the same way when people remark how *"lucky" we are that our five kids all turned out well *and graduated High School as if it was the luck of the draw. It took a lot of effort and consistent discipline and encouragement (and I have never spanked or hit my kids ever) and out of the five; one is a brain, one an athlete, one an artist, one a humanist touchy feely type, and the fifth was the worst High School student imaginable and barely graduated but makes more money than I do.


This statement always fractures me.
I always say "it was a lot of hard work, and over time".
or
"I beat them once a day whether or not they needed it"
Either way......'good kids' don't just happen.



> There is nothing wrong with the kids of today except they are subjected to overly accomodating school systems that try to turn High Schools into mini college campuses and we have accepted mediocrity in everything from teacher performance to student achievement. If you set the bar low the student will do what is needed to meet that and little more, if you set the bar high they will try to reach that too.


Bam! Mediocrity is not only the norm, but the way, and if you excell, they WILL push you into mediocrity. 



> But blaming the students as if they had a generational genetic mutation is a sad indictment on the state of our education system and I certainly understand why more and more people choose to home school. It also explains why teachers in general are so wedded to tenure and against performance based measures.


The system sets them up for failure.
Especially in the inner cities.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

It seems like in the larger schools there was the problem with bullies and atheletes getting a passing grade no matter how stupid they really were. I moved from a small town school to a big city school in the late 70's. It was light day turned to night! Bullies galore which the school refused to do anything about. All the atheletes were given passing grades or the teachers were in big trouble. Exceptionally bright students held back instead of having to work to their potential. Slower students passed on because the teachers didn't want to mess with them. I knew a kid who got 10 credits in Home Ec! Seriously, Home Ec!!!!! If they couldn't pass 10th grade math they got 2 credits in 9th grade math and sometimes the teahers would set with them during the tests and "help" them with the answers.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

shawnlee said:


> What happened to giving f`s ...........
> 
> 
> School teachers have it hard...I can say that from the abuse I used to give them......problem is.....I was good at it and made them look foolish, so they just left me alone and I left them alone...along with leaving the other kids who wanted to learn alone and all was well.....
> ...


That was my problem in school back in the 70's.. When I started a year early at age 5 I was in a school in New Mexico, I started learning foreign languages in 1st grade, was taking fencing, the teacher had me working on reading in third grade level in first grade at the age of 5..

Then we moved to Texas and I was stuck with whatever the class was doing.. No flexibility, tons of homework drudgery, I turned into a big problem for the school and left school at 16 and never looked back. I was one of the kids who flat out refused to do any homework, but I aced every test. Didn't matter, I was given failing grades even though I aced he tests and showed I learned and mastered the material, simply because I refused to do the homework. 

Now I make 6 figures having self taught myself and started my own businesses.. School did me no favors.. Nor did most of my teachers. There were a couple though I will remember fondly for life, and looking back they were the ones who challenged me past what I was capable of in a way that pricked me to thinking.. "I'll show them.." and challenging myself to do so..


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

I was going to become a teacher until recently. I have since decided against pursuing this career because I really don't need a lawsuit against me for backhanding horrible parents. I don't see the teachers as the problem but I do see the system and sometimes administrators as the problem. The parents are the biggest problems. I got a call yesterday from a friend who told me she almost ran over my stepson because he didn't look before crossing the street as he went to his mom's house after school. DH told the ex about it and her answer was, "I'd take that up with the school board, they're the ones that make him walk". WHAT?! They had to cut bus routes in town(they live about 9 blocks from the school) because of budget cuts. DH had to explain to her that it was not the school's fault and it was the parents responsibility to get the students too and from school. She also has a huge lunch bill for DSS10 and DSS13 that she refuses to pay because "I pay taxes". 

DSS13 has D's and F's in classes and doesn't care. I asked him what he was going to happen when he couldn't graduate high school and go to college. He laughed and said, "work at Burger King". This is my DH's step son(he helped raise him since he was 2) so we have no legal say with this child. When I talked to his mother about his grades she said, "we don't have high expectations of Tyler". Well, no wonder he is failing! The worst thing is that my DSS10, Jacob, is extremely intelligent, he's in the 4th grade reading at an 8th grade level and he doesn't want to get good grades because his older brother tells him, "only nerds get good grades". Jacob is also in remedial math because if he doesn't like what he is learning he doesn't retain the information. He can remember cheat codes for video games, but he can't remember what 3 X 6 is! I guess I should say he "doesn't" instead of "can't".

My DH and I spend hours trying to convice those boys that a good education is extremely important and if you don't go to college go to a trade school then. They won't listen! I'm terrified of what is going to become of them, hopefully they grow out of this. My DS11 came home with A's and B's on a report card and I told him he'd better have straight A's next time because I was observing his classroom(for my practicum) and I knew he wasn't working as hard as he could. DD9 gets straight A's and is doing 5th grade math, but refuses to say she likes school because the kids will make fun of her. 

NCLB was made to get students to the remedial level. There is no real language in it to help students who are excelling at a higher rate than their peers(correct me if I'm wrong Shan, that is what I've been able to find in my textbooks). Schools have federal funding for Title 1 programs, but none for Gifted programs. I would love to move DD9 ahead a grade(she's one of the oldest in her class anyway) but the school highly recommends not doing that for "social reasons".


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

I think that the root of the problem is systemic and systematic. And it is far beyond the education system, itself. It rests in society, in general.

Some folk make it a point to grumble about how modern science is taught in public school classrooms. They claim that well-proven &#8220;theories&#8221; take precedence over long-taught myths and superstitions. And, truthfully, that is the way it should be. Academics should reign in the classroom, not religion.

But what happens outside the classroom? Those theories of evolution and survival of the fittest have been replaced with feel-good forgiving attitudes of coddling and protection. Kindness has its cost.

It used to be that, when stupid people had children, the odds of any child making it to breeding age were greatly reduced. They&#8217;d fly around untethered in a car crash. They&#8217;d burn up in a house fire. They&#8217;d get ground up in farm machinery.

But we, as a society, ignore the principles of science and protect children from these outcomes. We have child seat and seatbelt laws, smoke detector requirements, safety shields and warning labels.

So, what&#8217;s to be done with all the protected progeny of ignorant and irresponsible people? We install and insulate them in public school. And when they don&#8217;t have the wherewithal to thrive there, we dumb down the standards so that we don&#8217;t bruise their self esteem. There are no consequences for not achieving or excelling. They go home and see that Mom still has her &#8220;American Idol&#8221; and daiquiri. Dad has his sports on TV and his beer. Heck, he even gets to hold the remote.

Even the negative incentive of the village idiot has been removed. It used to be that almost every village had at least one idiot to which teachers could point and pronounce, &#8220;Study. Or you&#8217;ll end up like that.&#8221;

But, what do we do with our village idiots, now? We make them entertainers, politicians, radio and TV talk show hosts. Some idolize them. How do you expect teachers to explain the consequences of ignorance when there are none?

What is behind all of this? Who might possibly benefit from the dumbing-down of society? Who needs a continual supply of stupid, misdirected people?

The answer is obvious.

Cats.

But most people refuse to see it.


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## MushCreek (Jan 7, 2008)

Our son went to a private Christian school, and we are NOT rich! We drove old cars and saved every penny because we believed what the school was teaching. We also spent a lot of TIME with our son. At his school, parents are required to work X number of hours per year as volunteers, and our numbers ran to hundreds of hours. Our son also had to put in community service time, and racked up over 200 hours by the time he graduated. It was calculated that by the time students in his school reached high school, they were 2 years ahead of the public schools.

The result? Our son will be finishing his Master's degree in May. 100% of his graduating class went on to college. We never had a lick of trouble with our son or any of his friends over the years. They are so clean-cut and conservative it would be funny if it weren't so gratifying to see in this day and age. 

Why? Discipline, along with Christian love and morals. Parental love, support, and attention. The public schools around here, by contrast, are horrible. Violence, drugs, promiscuity, etc. Try any of those things in a private school, and out you go.

Meanwhile, I've eaten the Girl Scout cookies.........


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Great post oggie.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

shanzone2001 said:


> I teach math every day. The problem is that many of my students do not pay attention. They sit quietly in Lala land because they could care less about multiplication, division, fractions, decimals, finding the volume of a solid figure, etc.
> Yes, there are teachers out there not doing their job, but what about the students not doing theirs?
> I can't force a child to WANT to learn, no matter how many time I explain the importance of an education.
> I wish people would stop blaming everything on teachers....try doing it for yourself and see how hard it is!!!


No, but you can hold them back instead of allowing them to graduate.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

You're not allowed to hold them back. Remember, "no child left behind". You might cause little Johnny to have a poor self image if you hold him back.


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

navygirl said:


> A college student I work with asked me what 30% of $12.99 was. I handed her a pencil and paper and told her she is a college student... figure it out. She looked at me dumb-founded and said "but I'm an English Lit major". Just.... wow.....


took me all of 2 seconds to come up with 3.60


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## barelahh (Apr 13, 2007)

shanzone2001 said:


> I teach math every day. The problem is that many of my students do not pay attention. They sit quietly in Lala land because they could care less about multiplication, division, fractions, decimals, finding the volume of a solid figure, etc.
> Yes, there are teachers out there not doing their job, but what about the students not doing theirs?
> I can't force a child to WANT to learn, no matter how many time I explain the importance of an education.
> I wish people would stop blaming everything on teachers....try doing it for yourself and see how hard it is!!!


What ever happened to appealing to the competitive nature. Make it a competition and you'll get their interest.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

shanzone2001 said:


> I do produce results, but when Johnny marks "A" for every answer on the test because he doesn't care, then it is my fault?


Yep, you obviously failed to make the material interesting enough for him to care. Perhaps you should come up with a different test method, or even better, a different teaching method. You have to ask yourself why Johnny didnt care... and fix it so he does. Then he will not only be eager to learn, he will do well on his tests because he knows the correct answers. Kids have the same ego trips going on that adults do, learn to manipulate them into wanting to learn just like you have learned to manipulate adults to get what you want. You know, paychecks, bank loans, wedding rings.....


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

barelahh said:


> took me all of 2 seconds to come up with 3.60


Think how much better you could have done if you had spent a bit more time on it. When you multiply 12.99 by .3 you get 3.897, when you round the seven tenths up, 30 percent of 12.99 is 3.90


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Oggie said:


> I think that the root of the problem is systemic and systematic. And it is far beyond the education system, itself. It rests in society, in general.
> 
> Some folk make it a point to grumble about how modern science is taught in public school classrooms. They claim that well-proven âtheoriesâ take precedence over long-taught myths and superstitions. And, truthfully, that is the way it should be. Academics should reign in the classroom, not religion.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2011)

Oggie made the most entertaining post in this topic. And it even had a lot of truth in it. 

*meow* :benice:


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## Junkman (Dec 17, 2005)

Hear the tale about the two boys taking the same test of 10 questions. Both had the exact same answers except one answered on #10 - I don't Know.
His neighbor answered on #10 - Me neither.


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

shanzone2001 said:


> I teach math every day. The problem is that many of my students do not pay attention. They sit quietly in Lala land because they could care less about multiplication, division, fractions, decimals, finding the volume of a solid figure, etc.
> Yes, there are teachers out there not doing their job, but what about the students not doing theirs?
> I can't force a child to WANT to learn, no matter how many time I explain the importance of an education.
> I wish people would stop blaming everything on teachers....try doing it for yourself and see how hard it is!!!


I'm not blaming teachers as a whole, Shanzone -- I know how tough many of them have it. 

I do blame the system which says "no child left behind", which brings every student down to the lowest common denominator. I do blame parents who refuse to get involved. I do blame the psychologists that say that failing a student when they don't know the material required to pass is "damaging" to their psyche, and that that is more important than their being able to count change. I do blame the society that says that its okay to send a kid along to high school, despite the fact that he's never learned how to read beyond a fourth grade level.

And I blame the teacher's unions, which make it impossible for good teachers to be rewarded and bad ones to be replaced. If teachers want the general public to stop blaming them for the failings in our classrooms, then they need to recognize that SOME of them ARE the problem, just as some kids, some parents, some educational professionals, and some school district administration, is sometimes the problem. Protecting poorly performing teachers, however, is just another instance of "lowest common denominator", an attitude which has undermined and is seriously in danger of destroying the education system.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2011)

shanzone2001 said:


> I teach math every day. The problem is that many of my students do not pay attention. They sit quietly in Lala land because they could care less about multiplication, division, fractions, decimals, finding the volume of a solid figure, etc.
> Yes, there are teachers out there not doing their job, but what about the students not doing theirs?
> I can't force a child to WANT to learn, no matter how many time I explain the importance of an education.
> I wish people would stop blaming everything on teachers....try doing it for yourself and see how hard it is!!!





shanzone2001 said:


> My suggestion to those who chose to criticize is to spend a day in an inner city classroom with 35 6th graders and then report back what you observed. Honestly, your understanding of the dynamics are very limited. You can't compare your own child's classroom unless you live in the inner city.


I have a challenge for those who have been criticizing shanzone as a teacher.

Read this 15 page article here about inner-city schools: http://www.nytimes.com/1990/11/25/magazine/hope-in-hell-s-classroom.html

It was written in 1990, but there have been no significant changes between then and now. It's still like that.

*AFTER* you have read that article in it's entirety, come back here and offer suggestions on how teachers* in that situation can do things differently.

*_teachers with NO cooperation or support from failing students and their parents, and probably little support from anyone else involved in that school._

Shanzone, my aunt taught Jr. High in inner-city schools for most of her teaching career until she retired. She fed students who came to school half starved (she started keeping food in the classroom), she bought shoes for barefoot children, coats for cold children, she visited her students in jail, arranged housing for them when their parents were in jail, she put up with their stink from not bathing in who knows how long... 

She would get so frustrated with the uncooperation of their mothers (and their fathers, when the kids knew who or where their fathers were). She would set up meetings and the parents wouldn't show up. Or sometimes they WOULD show up but would cuss her out for no reason, except some imagined slight in their own drug-stupored mind.

It wasn't what she expected as a teacher, but after her first teaching job in an inner-city school, she felt like she had found her calling.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Thank you, Ladycat. 
People tend to judge something based on what they know. Where I teach is most likely nothing like the HT members own children' schools. 
Shannon


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yep, you obviously failed to make the material interesting enough for him to care. Perhaps you should come up with a different test method, or even better, a different teaching method. You have to ask yourself why Johnny didnt care... and fix it so he does. Then he will not only be eager to learn, he will do well on his tests because he knows the correct answers. Kids have the same ego trips going on that adults do, learn to manipulate them into wanting to learn just like you have learned to manipulate adults to get what you want. You know, paychecks, bank loans, wedding rings.....


You are assuming I didn't do that. If you were in my classroom, you would have known that I did. 
Next idea? 
You assume I haven't tried every strategy known to get him to want to learn. You assume I am not giving 110%. You assume I am not enthusiastic and use mnemonic devices, active participation, and positive reinforcement. Or that I am not activating prior knowlefge, making connections to their real life and experiences, using wait time for responses, preferencial seating, partners, proximity or many other modifications and strategies.

I don't tell doctors how to perform surgery when I have no idea how to do it myself.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Yep, you obviously failed to make the material interesting enough for him to care. Perhaps you should come up with a different test method, or even better, a different teaching method. You have to ask yourself why Johnny didnt care... and fix it so he does.


Maybe Johnny doesn't care because he's hungry ... or didn't get any sleep last night because his father was beating his mother ... or the junkies who shoot up in his living room were noisy.

You tell me how a teacher is supposed to fix THAT? 

As far as kids in general having poor math skills ... think of the games they play. 

My generation grew up playing board games. We started out with stuff like Aggravation and Sorry!, where you threw two dice, added the total and advanced the corresponding number of spaces. Eventually kids worked up to Monopoly, which required players who landed on a certain square to calculate taxes. There was some incentive in determining whether it was cheaper to pay 15% or $150 ... or how to make change, so as not to be cheated by another player.

We were learning and practicing math, although we didn't think of it that way at the time. :shrug:


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## lilmizlayla (Aug 28, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> Maybe Johnny doesn't care because he's hungry ... or didn't get any sleep last night because his father was beating his mother ... or the junkies who shoot up in his living room were noisy.
> 
> You tell me how a teacher is supposed to fix THAT?
> 
> ...


problems like that are nothing new. think horrible childhoods didnt exist until the 20th century? 

for many kids...school is all they have. they need somebody to care...to set boundaries and to push them. they need the loving positive enforcement. several of us on HT have been the clown..the troublemaker....the squeaky wheel. think about the teacher that you absolutely loved ..the one that made learning fun. didnt that make a difference? 
when we hold teachers to higher standards, we will see school performances improve. the teachers point fingers at the parents when the kids dont learn..... BOE wants to fill a slot. teachers have a degree, but that doesnt mean they can teach. I see that at the university. these professors are very highly educated, but they know nothing about teaching and making the material interesting so that even adults have trouble retaining it. A doctorate means nothing. yes, they know their stuff..but not many can transfer that knowledge to others. 
many professors teach when they have nothing else better to do. they are older...need a paycheck.....i am sure its the same with k-12. matter of fact, looking back at some of my kids teachers..i am quite sure of it.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> problems like that are nothing new. think horrible childhoods didnt exist until the 20th century?


A lot of kids in previous generations didn't learn much, either, for the same reason. :shrug:


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