# Mama bunny first litter, dead kits



## notasnowballs (Dec 28, 2010)

I had one other mama have a little of ten, and she wittled it down to 7. Gross, but probably necessary. This mama is a first timer, plenty big, a Flemish Giant/Checkered Giant cross. I am trying to figure out what I did wrong, so we can avoid this next time, or if she is just a bad mother like her mother. She is the last of my Giants, because of my husband's stupid dog (don't ask...). I'm trying to give her a chance.

I wondered, because for a day, maybe two I was out of hay (mom in law emergency and couldn't get to feed store for a bit) and I finally got to the feed store and got her some put in there. She had had plenty of protien pellets and grass greens as usual, and a resting board. She was getting close to her popping time. 

So I put the hay in there, and immediately I see her stuffing great mouthfuls of it in a certain spot and frantically pulling out hair. So I knew she was going to kindle that night, which she did. In the evening, I saw two nonmoving kits. They seemed to be in a good enough nest. She laid in two spots, the box area and on some hay, both lined with fur. By morning, there were a few more, and one had apparently crawled through the wires of the cage and froze. Sad. 

Anyways, I'm wondering if she is just another psycho rabbit to be culled (her mother consistently didn't birth very well or killed her babies on purpose), or if it was the hay issue.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

Most say to just write off the first litter because most does lose the first litter. I haven't found them to be that bad and have had many fully successful first litters from my rabbits but I would not judge a rabbit even the tiniest bit by her first litter. They get very confused. Also if something happens causing a dead kit they will often try to have the kits in another spot or try to have the dead kits in another spot leading to what looks like kits that have frozen somewhere when in reality they were all going to die anyway and the doe kept them out of her nest to try to save the rest.


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## birdman1 (Oct 3, 2011)

Do you have a nest box ? just having a hay pile makes it so easy for kits to crawl out and chill or have no protection from drafts . a 4-5inch lip on the low side helps keep the kits that try to hold on the nipple in the box from getting draged out onto the wire for a giant rabbit a nest box 18 x 12 wide and 10 inches tapering to 5 inches at the low end better 1/2 coverd in the winter .


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Also, without a box, when the doe nurses them the kids will stay attached to her nipples and get dragged out of the nest. Most nest boxes have a lip on the front that scrapes off the babies still attached.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

> She laid in two spots, the box area and on some hay, both lined with fur.


This made me think there was a next box. Whether it was a proper one I don't know though.


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## notasnowballs (Dec 28, 2010)

No, whenever I have used a box, they just don't use it. All my rabbits hate the box. Wierd. But what I do do is put about 3 inches of hay built up on bottom and sides and the mom builds a nice little hole in there with fur. All last year had about 8 rabbits and they did just fine this way. The box area is a different kind of cage that was given to me, it has two levels. The cages were originally for ferrets, I took two cage compartments, cut out the middle wall, and made a bigger area for rabbit. The rabbits like to jump up in that upper box area, and it does have a lip. It would be similar to the design where the rabbits have a lowered nestbox in the floor of the cage, only they jump up into it. It has never been an issue before, this upper area. The rabbits liked to jump up there to hang out, or I would put their fresh hay there so they eat it without wasting so much of it through the bottom of the cage, stuff like that. The one that tried to crawl out was in that box. Well there is always one exception to the rule. I haven't used boxes since my first two rabbits kindled last year because they just don't use them. They prefer to dig a hole.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

They have to be taught a box is safer for the kits and will keep them from wandering too early or getting as cold. When a first time doe makes a nest outside the box you put the nest in the box. Eventually they will use a box without fail. They will even use a box if you put them in the middle of a 24x12' colony with 100s of areas to nest. A doe taught to use a box knows it's a better place for kits than a corner or pile of hay. 

They are quite smart about it too. My one doe will bury a box 3' deep in the winter when we have below 0F temps and then dig it near empty and put a light bit of hay with ring of fur for 90-100F temps. I have a lot more failures from the does in colony who never learned to use a box while in a cage so they build nests in corners and random locations losing the first 1 and often 3 litters until they figure out what makes a good nest. I have not lost a single litter that all ended up in a box on the first try. We are working on some nesting designs that will seem more natural so the colony rabbits will want to use them since you can't always just scoop a colony nest in to a box like you can a cage rabbit. It's hard to teach them in colony to use a certain container instead of them choosing and going through trial and error.


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