# Debarking?



## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

OM goodness, I just found out that Emma does not have a throat injury she has been debarked. I am stunned. Does this hurt her, she seems happy enough? I don't want to argue the issue, it is what it is. Seller thinks Ruthie Mae is debarked too though I heard her bark loudly yesterday. I feel sad for Emma. sisterpine


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## Ruby (May 10, 2002)

Poor baby, that's one way they comunitcate.


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## heavyrebel (Oct 6, 2010)

Real shame, but we have some clients whos dogs have had that done. They don't seem to notice, but it is, as stated, one way they communicate. However, that is through distance generally. From a closer range, dogs use thier tails, ears, fur, stance, head tongue and other signs. I can think of a few dogs that I would like to have debarked..lol. I find it much worse, in terms of dogs sociallizing, when their tails are docked or ears cropped.


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## WstTxLady (Mar 14, 2009)

debarked? no need for that really.


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## belladulcinea (Jun 21, 2006)

Debarked dogs don't always stay that way! Bless her heart, but at least she has you now and you've solved the mystery! Maybe she'll get her voice back


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

My aunt had a sheltie that had been debarked before she got her. It was totally cruel and we were all horrified. She would make this weird huffing quiet bark. BUT she did that ALL day. Like constantly. Never quit for anything. Then I hate to say it...but we all thought...maybe it wasn't so bad after all that she had been debarked.... :S Isn't that awful! But the dog NEVER shut up.


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## canine14 (Feb 22, 2006)

I rescued a ten-year old Border Collie who had been debarked. It is the most horrible sound in the world when she tries to bark. It sounds like she is coughing and really is such a grating sound. Poor thing. It is cruel.


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## FoxyWench (Jan 22, 2010)

the good news is...while the procedure would have been painfull and very confusing during the recovery...

now shes recoverd she probably doesnt notice much difference.

i personally think it shoudl be illegal though.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

No surgery is fun. But it's my personal opinion that if debarking saves a dog from a lethal injection then so be it.

It's also my personal opinion that even though there is more initial pain for the dog, there are less residual side effects then tail docking so to me it is less cruel then that.

But the one thing that is certain is that she's in no discomfort now and likely doesn't know that she's quieter or funny sounding when she barks. There's really no reason to feel sad for her. She won't be helped by your feeling sad, she'll just be confused that you're upset. 
And I know for a fact if you taught her to "speak" and gave her a cookie she's be just as pleased with herself as any other dog!


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

Such a shame...with just a bit of training a dog can learn when it is and isn't ok to bark. My guess is whoever had her last jsut didn't want to put in the effort of training her. If I could train a coonhound to not bark then any dog can be trained. Poor Brandi barked night and day for two weeks when we got her...NOBODY got any sleep, we were all very frazzled untill I consulted with experts and learned how to train her from that.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

bunch of bleeding hearts....debarking is not painful. they dont even notice. i had my dog debarked. it saved her life. a GP barks continuously. never stops at night and even when they are up during the day. they just go to barking for no apparent reason.

plus a barking dog draws the neighbors attention and before long you will have trouble with animal control serving warnings than warrents. then what. as for training. it doesnt always work. now she can bark till her hearts content and nobody is kept awake because of it...and she gets to live to see another day. a wonderful operation. i recommend it for every dog that isnt used for hunting.


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## Ruby (May 10, 2002)

The GP was doing what she was bread to do, bark to keep the preditors away.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Dead rabbit is right.
If I were a dog I would rather be debarked then dead. 
since it is illegal in this state, I had to place a very nice dog (a TS) that I *loved* because she would not stop screech barking. Had she not been a wonderfully pedigreed ***** of a hard to find color, in a rarer breed, no one would have taken her. she was shipped to ca were she got debarked.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

You're on a PET forum, Dead Rabbit. Not a 'treat an animal like a machine' forum. What good is a GP for alerting you to trouble if all she can do is that weird whuff noise? You followin' her around while you're tracking roaming cats?

We don't take kindly to folks who call names around here, either.


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

Debarking is really not all that big of a deal, and since I have shelties I can definitely see where it could save a dogs home and life. I just had a bi-blue girl here for two weeks that I had rehomed, her family went to the Rabbit Convention in Minnesota. She reminded me of why I rehomed her, she barked constantly, and I was so happy to see her go out the door again. Funny, she doesn't bark at their house, she's quiet and meek as a mouse. Here with her posse around her she's a bully and a barking machine. I hope they don't want to go anywhere esle anytime soon!! If I'd wanted to keep her I may have considered debarking her, and quite frankly she's not the first dog I rehomed partly because of excessive barking. Shelties can be recreational barkers, and debarking can be necessary to keep the owners sanity.

Now I don't have much of a problem with tail docking, do hate when when its done poorly and the tail is too short and the skin is pulled tight, but since its normally done when their very young its not any worse than dew claw removal. Ear cropping though I must admit turns my stomach, don't think it should be outlawed but since my dad bred dobes I've seen it up close and its pretty unpleasant.


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

Wow I had no idea how common debarking is! Thank you all for the information. I will at least now be able to watch more closely to see what she is trying to tell me. She is so sweet, and way to fat lol. That I can fix with some good play time and healthy food. Sis


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## Oregon Julie (Nov 9, 2006)

sisterpine the one thing you should remember about debarking is that sometimes it makes the throat slightly more narrow. If the dog has to have surgery the vet needs to know as sometimes they require a smaller tube for breathing then a dog of that size would normally use.

My opinion on the de-barking is that I don't like it, but it if means the difference between a dog living or dying then you de-bark. It is very easy for people to say that all you have to do is train, but not all dogs are capable of learning to stop barking at everything and anything. I own a rescue Standard Poodle who will bark non-stop if left at home. We have owned her for 9 of her 11 years and she is VERY smart, but cannot get beyond feeling the need to bark when her mommy leaves her at home (hence she goes with me almost always). She will bark through a bark collar, the shock kind.

I have worked for people who show Shelties and they are HORRIBLE about barking. As someone has already mentioned they do it as a form of recreation. That is fine if you live in the middle of no where and you don't mind it, but neighbors in general do mind. 

I have no problem with docking the tails of pups at 3-5 days. While I no longer dock my Parson Russell Terriers I did for about 15 years (10 of those I did it myself) and it is fast and easy with the pups back with mom and nursing within minutes. I do have a problem docking the tails of older dogs unless it is medically needed. Ear cropping I hate. I feel very sorry for the pups. It seems a shame to have them spend a time of their young lives where they should be able to play and have fun, not have racks and tape just for a certain look.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

I've met a few debarked dogs who sounded worse than they probably did when they had their full voice. 

I'm not a fan of it, but am in the camp of "better a debarking than a lethal injection, or being bounced around craigslist a couple years first". Routinely, though, no.

I'm another sheltie lover, and holy cow. Some breeders, it seems those who have a naturally quiet, sedate dog in the lead, have a relatively quiet pack. Others, you'll leave bleeding from the ears.



.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

I am a fan of don't get a dog if you can't take the time to teach it not to bark.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

JasoninMN said:


> I am a fan of don't get a dog if you can't take the time to teach it not to bark.


*mwah* 
Air kiss for Jason  (And Molly and Ace too- particularly Ace!)

I can see it if it's a total, at the end of your rope it's either this or death AFTER all avenues of training have been exhausted. For those folks who can't/won't take the time and use it instead of the right way of doing things- shame on you.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

Ruby said:


> The GP was doing what she was bread to do, bark to keep the preditors away.



her job is to keep ****, opossoms, and owls outa the chicken lot, and deer outa the yard, at night. if her sheer presence cant do that w/o barking at anything and everything, and absolutely nothing, than something else is bad wrong.

a wonderful dog. but she has a purpose and she fulfills it well. and now me, mine, the fowl, the rabbits, and the neighbors get to sleep at night, and i dont get served a warrent by animal control because of a nuisance pet.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> You're on a PET forum, Dead Rabbit. Not a 'treat an animal like a machine' forum. What good is a GP for alerting you to trouble if all she can do is that weird whuff noise? You followin' her around while you're tracking roaming cats?
> 
> We don't take kindly to folks who call names around here, either.


if im wrong than have it moved. if not, dont get so upset. and your bitterness over some folks cats roaming further than you think they should has nothing to do with this conversation. 

as for calling names, i apologize. it was not meant as a "slam" on anyone. i should have followed it with a LOL or a *smiley* my fault. 

my GP is a PET. unfortuantly i and esp. my wife was too soft hearted and paid her too much attention. and she became too attached to us, and we to her. it affects her job output, but still she does a great job.. now that her bark is no louder than a cough....i have no complaints about her. a great breed, a good worker, and i highly recommend the breed as a pet or working dog.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

JasoninMN said:


> I am a fan of don't get a dog if you can't take the time to teach it not to bark.


PM me your number and the next time i have a FGD to train i'll call you. be prepared to work between the hrs of 12 midnight to 9 AM when she goes to bed "for the night" 

mine only covers 2 acres. but most FGD cover between a doz to a hundred acres. in the future i hope for mine to cover close to that...it would be interesting watching you keep up with them over that time period over that amount of land. and not get bit in the process.

id stay awake just to watch it....for the first night or so.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

I agree that dogs sound MUCH worse when debarked than before. It may be a quieter noise, but the sound itself just makes me feel gross. Like listening to someone constantly coughing or trying to gag up phlegm. 

I too take issue with people debarking their dogs. Unless it's life-threatening, find the dog a new home if you can't figure out a way to get it stopped.

My mother raised Shelties when I was younger. They were NEVER barkers. You breed for good characteristics, and train the dogs who have a tendency to yap. The first show I attended with a whole row of debarked Shelties just made me want to vomit. 

What a terrible disservice to debark a dog. I think in a good majority of cases, it shows that the breeders were breeding for something OTHER than a stable personality in the litter, and the owners just don't care enough to put time and effort into training the dog. Of course there are exceptions, but for the most part, debarking a dog signifies to me bad breeding and bad ownership.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

im curious as to all those that are against debarking...or ear cropping...or tail docking.......

how many of ya'll will spay or neurter your pets? hhhmmmmmmmmm..........??


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

There's a difference in not creating excess animals and mutilating animals to suit a human.


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

Its hard enough to rehome an adult dog, let alone one with a barking problem. I cant see that the answer to a dog that barks even with training, is to rehome them. Im sure the dog would probably rather stay in its current home and have a surgery they wont remember in a week. Vet I work for debarked her dog. Dog was extremely happy that it was aloud to bark all day and night without getting reprimanded constantly. She didnt even care about bark collars. They hurt her but in her mind it was worth it to hunker down before the bark to take the pain. Vet figured the surgery was worth it for her to live another 10 years happy and doing what she loved, barking. It was not a terrible sound, like someone whispering "roof roof roof".


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

http://www.naiaonline.org/body/articles/archives/debark_qna.htm


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> You're on a PET forum, Dead Rabbit. Not a 'treat an animal like a machine' forum. What good is a GP for alerting you to trouble if all she can do is that weird whuff noise? You followin' her around while you're tracking roaming cats?
> 
> We don't take kindly to folks who call names around here, either.


Thank you RamblinRose.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Dead Rabbit said:


> im curious as to all those that are against debarking...or ear cropping...or tail docking.......
> 
> how many of ya'll will spay or neurter your pets? hhhmmmmmmmmm..........??


Every single one of my 16 dogs and eight cats are spayed/neutered. I would never debark, ear crop or tail dock a single one of them unless it was a necessary medical emergency. 

Our dog Maggie injured her tail this summer. Vet said it might have to be amputated, but we did everything we could to save it and were successful. 

Recently our dog Angus split the inside of his ear. Required multiple stitches. Guess we could have just cut his ear off, but we saved it instead.

We don't do any type of cosmetic surgery on our dogs. The surgeries we do are for their HEALTH. PERIOD.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

Dead Rabbit said:


> im curious as to all those that are against debarking...or ear cropping...or tail docking.......
> 
> how many of ya'll will spay or neurter your pets? hhhmmmmmmmmm..........??


Well I don't neurter my pets, but I do have the neutered  lol  
All my animals are spayed and neutered, it is responsible and healthier for them. The only things around here that have testicles are my husband and he is fixed, lol and my goat buck. Pet Forum equals bleeding heart, then I am happy to be one. 

My dogs are taught not to bark unless required. I take the time to train my dogs. My LGD only bark when something is out there and that is their job. They warn off the coyotes well before those little jerks come close. My house dogs bark when someone comes here, knocks on the door etc. What good would a debarked dog do me? I also doubt it is painless. 

Sisterpine since she is a happy and fat dog and you cannot change what happened I would not worry about it. It is good she has a nice new home


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

sooooo....its ok to spay/neuter because it benefits us to not have to deal with reproducing and a population boom of unwanted pets. 

but its not ok to do a much more painless, quicker surgery to keep the from barking loud..

tsk, tsk......i could easily turn yalls reason right around on ya. i could easily say the reason some one gets their pets spayed and neutered is because it makes life easier on them and they care nothing for the dog and what the dog wants to do that God created them to do. and they dont want to practice good pet ownership by overseeing and containing their dogs to keep them from breeding. we are only talking about couple times a yr, keepin your ***** away from a dog. its not impossible even with 16 dogs.

see how stupid that sounds??

if your that worried about their health, than let um breed. thats what they were created to do. dont take the easy route of manipulating nature and the natural way of things.

debarking just keeps the volume down. they can still bark all they want. they are happy, healthy, and dont know the differece. believe you me. mine is as barky as ever.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

> I take the time to train my dogs. My LGD only bark when something is out there and that is their job. They warn off the coyotes well before those little jerks come close.


so what your saying is that they bark at nothing. nothing that you can see. but you are attributing it to the potential problems lurking in the dark. your statement is rather contradictory. yet they are trained to bark only in advance....hmmmmm.???

i could say mine was doing the same but that does not negate the fact that she barked all night long and could have caused me severe problems...besides the fact of no sleep


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

Ravenlost said:


> Thank you RamblinRose.



ummmm.......what part of post #22 dont you understand?

did i not apologize enuff??


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

tailwagging said:


> http://www.naiaonline.org/body/articles/archives/debark_qna.htm



good link and most everything mentioned is true according to my personal experience with a debarking a dog

many here can learn something from this link. but i doubt any minds will be changed.

preconceived notions are formed out of ignorance....
ignorance breeds prejudice...
prejudice causes hate..
hate.... causes one to form preconceived notions....

vicious cycle it tis.

shame of the matter is, most dont want to think outside the box and to actually learn something theyd rather be stuck on their own preconceived notions.

nuff said by me. i leave ya'll to your notions.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Ravenlost said:


> Thank you RamblinRose.


You're welcome, Raven.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Do you have facts to back up your 'reason' regarding the spaying and neutering of pets? Anything proving that they live longer, healthier lives if allowed to breed at will? Anything stating that their offspring also live long healthy lives? 

Or is it just your way of trying to spin a concept to make your views more acceptable?

This isn't a discussion about allowing animals to return to the wild- it's about taking the easy way out instead of working toward a more acceptable goal and about altering animals, not for their health or well being, but so that they can fit some notion that humans have about appearance or action. 


Oh my.. did I just fling some of the blood from my bleeding heart on you? So sorry....


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

Dead Rabbit said:


> sooooo....its ok to spay/neuter because it benefits us to not have to deal with reproducing and a population boom of unwanted pets.
> 
> but its not ok to do a much more painless, quicker surgery to keep the from barking loud..
> 
> ...


Honestly, DR, it sounds stupid because it IS stupid. You are not understanding the idea behind spaying and neutering. We don't get our pets fixed because it's EASIER for us, although it is nice to not have to worry about fighting males, and keeping an eye on females, and having blood from the females all over your yard, and having 5,000 stray male dogs on your property.

Spaying and neutering has been proven to not only reduce the risk of many types of cancers, but also to lengthen the lifespan of the dog, and help to curb bad behaviors (roaming, aggression, etc). But even THAT isn't why you should fix your pets. The fact is that we kill MILLIONS of animals in this country a year simply because there aren't enough homes for them all. So by fixing our pets, we are standing up and saying that we feel the deaths of all of those animals is wrong, and we will not be adding to the total. 

It's not that we BENEFIT from not having to deal with the animal surplus. It's that the animals who are NOT born benefit... Because they don't have to suffer or die. It's really that simple. For every litter being born today, how many hundreds of thousands of dogs are being put to sleep, or starving to death, or being abused, or raised in cages for the pet trade?

It's simply the responsible thing to do. It shows that you CARE about the world around you.

And simply "watching" your dogs isn't that simple. My Border Collie ***** came into heat TWO months after going out of heat. Not 6 months, not 8 months. Two. I didn't even know she was cycling again until I found a beautiful male BC sitting in the kennel with her one morning... She didn't even appear to be in heat and wasn't due for months... But 2 months later, I had a beautiful batch of unplanned puppies. And she got spayed as soon as they were weaned.

I disagree with people breeding dogs with issues like hyper, barking tendencies who simply think "It's okay, we'll get the whole litter debarked!" I'm not saying that I have an issue with you debarking your dog. It seems weird to me to debark a LGD, but you say that your dog was simply a pet in the beginning, but that she does do LGD work. I'm assuming (possibly wrong) that you didn't buy the dog strictly for an LGD and expect it to be a quiet dog.

Buying an LGD and expecting it to be quiet is like buying a Beagle or Coonhound and expecting silence around your house. Obviously, it would defeat the purpose. They were bred to make noise when on alert. I'm also assuming that you realize that too.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

Oh, yes. And the difference between spaying and cropping ears is that one is done to help better the world. The other is done for vanity. If docking a dog's tail would help prevent millions of animals from suffering, I'd be completely for docking tails as well.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

SilverFlame819 said:


> Oh, yes. And the difference between spaying and cropping ears is that one is done to help better the world. The other is done for vanity. If docking a dog's tail would help prevent millions of animals from suffering, I'd be completely for docking tails as well.


Ding ding! We have a winner. lol! I have so into spaying and neutering that I HATE the sight of litters of puppies and kittens. Of course I love the individual babies...but the sight of a whole litter makes me gag.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

I loooooove puppies. Squish! Puppies are adorable. Even ugly dogs make cute puppies!

That being said... Every time I see a cute puppy, I think about the hundreds that have died that day in its place.  It incenses me and makes me SO angry. I just don't understand how people can go on letting their dogs breed like feral rabbits and not CARE. When No More Homeless Pets in Utah was still being funded by Maddie's Fund, I carried around those coupons in my glove box that were for discounted surgeries. When I saw people giving away puppies, I would give them one for each puppy they were giving away, and one for the dam. I got some horrified looks of disbelief from some of them, and many would say, "Well, I still can't afford that!" And I would say, "20 bucks is a lot cheaper than what you've paid to feed these puppies 'til weaning age... She'll be pregnant again in 6 months... What's cheaper?" I was never mean about it, because I realize that being a jerk doesn't help people accept what you're saying as common truth and helpful advice... I just hope over the years I helped some people (and dogs)...


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

Dead Rabbit said:


> sooooo....its ok to spay/neuter because it benefits us to not have to deal with reproducing and a population boom of unwanted pets.
> 
> but its not ok to do a much more painless, quicker surgery to keep the from barking loud..
> 
> ...


You trying to annoy people on purpose with this idiotic statement? I spay and neuter because it is healtier for them, I do not want to add to the pet population, I do not want to be some idiot backyard breeder who produces cock-a-chi-weenie-poodle-doos and sell them to people at Christmas time for $500 a piece calling them "designer dogs". Stroll a shelter sometime and tell me that dogs and cats were put on this Earth to be breeders. 
Since when is any surgery painless? 

My LGD bark at coyotes. The coyotes howl, yip or whatever and my boys bark. They do not bark all night, they do not bark for an hour or more, they do not bark when it is quiet. Now if there here rustling they start growling, the rustling comes closer they bark and head toward it. So maybe your dog feels the need to bark all night, mine are secure in their role and home, they bark when needed. 

Silver I agree 100 %.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Thank you Silverflame819! Well said.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

"There are no bad dogs, just bad owners"


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

> PM me your number and the next time i have a FGD to train i'll call you. be prepared to work between the hrs of 12 midnight to 9 AM when she goes to bed "for the night"
> 
> mine only covers 2 acres. but most FGD cover between a doz to a hundred acres. in the future i hope for mine to cover close to that...it would be interesting watching you keep up with them over that time period over that amount of land. and not get bit in the process.
> 
> id stay awake just to watch it....for the first night or so.


You bought a breed bred to guard large flocks of sheep on open range in mountains not 2 acres next to a house. That is your problem not the dogs. My guess with a lot that small you have neighbors and took them into consideration as well. Instead of researching what LGDs do when they work you ended up with what you see as a problem. Its not the dogs problem. The dogs bark to warn predators of their presence and its instinct to them, but because of your ignorance to do any research on this your dogs cords got slit. Instead of admitting you created the problem, you blame the dog and find some form of justification with that.


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

I have collies- also a barking breed. Many collie breeders and owners for that matter debark thier dogs. Personally, I dislike it. I have had one gal I got debarked- very annoying. At least with a full volume bark, I can correct quickly and train to stop barking with a word and later a flip of the light switch....with her muted bark, I could only hear the other dogs barking back at her when she would not hush while I was in the house (it annoyed them too)....then they got corrected and she hadn't a clue what that flashing light meant or "enough".


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Spaying nutering info (not saying you shouldn't, just that you know what risks you take)

http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2008/01/08/spayneuter-what-does-the-science-say/

Most in Europe don't spay or neuter, saying it barbaric 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9581375?dopt=Abstract

A must read from the AVMA 
"In some parts of the world, elective gonadectomy is considered unethical and is strongly discouraged or disallowed by professional veterinary associations"

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/full/10.2460/javma.231.11.1665

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17516571

http://www.mmilani.com/commentary-200509.html


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

tailwagging said:


> Spaying nutering info (not saying you shouldn't, just that you know what risks you take)
> 
> http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2008/01/08/spayneuter-what-does-the-science-say/
> 
> ...


Your second link and another one deal with spaying and neutering babies. Which is a whole nother ball game. My vet WILL do spays and neuters on puppies and kittens provided that they are big and healthy for a few rescues. Rescues IMHO HAVE to spay and neuter dogs/cats before they leave because they honestly just never really know (no matter how much screening you do) what the true intentions of the the new owner is going to be. They can't take the risk of a rescue dog/cat making more babies. 

I FULLY believe that 95% of dogs/cats out there are better off dead than having babies. The human mind can't even fully grasp the concept of how many homeless, abandon dogs/cats there are out there. It's really and truly insane.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

docking info
http://www.cdb.org/index.htm

I myself do not like docking (though is is helpful to some breeds) I do not like debarking (though I could have kept my dog if I could have had it done here) I do not like cropping , so I don't have a breed that has it done.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Jackie said:


> Your second link and another one deal with spaying and neutering babies. Which is a whole nother ball game. My vet WILL do spays and neuters on puppies and kittens provided that they are big and healthy for a few rescues. Rescues IMHO HAVE to spay and neuter dogs/cats before they leave because they honestly just never really know (no matter how much screening you do) what the true intentions of the the new owner is going to be. They can't take the risk of a rescue dog/cat making more babies.
> 
> I FULLY believe that 95% of dogs/cats out there are better off dead than having babies. The human mind can't even fully grasp the concept of how many homeless, abandon dogs/cats there are out there. It's really and truly insane.


"Gonadectomy in juvenile and prepuberal *as well as in adult vertebrates* is only permitted by law in case of a medical indication or a special using of the animal."
like Peta motto "better dead then bred"?
the insane part is that there isn't any real rock hard proof that there is a overpopulation. there maybe too many big dogs or black dogs or dogs that were not trained (or not debarked) but it is not the number but their size activity level and bad ownership.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

please don't get me wrong.What I am trying to say is this.
what may seem like a barbaric act to us, may have reasons that it may need to be done.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

Tailwagging I have been to Europe and they really need to change their thoughts on spaying and neutering. Cats and dogs roaming the streets all over, half starved, laying dead in the road either hit by a car or died of who knows what. They hang out in droves outside restaurants. It is sad and disturbing to see as I would have loved to rescue them all, spay/neuter them and find them real homes. But after a while you have to turn that off since you cannot do much if anything. 
My Aunt in Europe had an unspayed female dog who she could not walk while in heat since she would be chased down by lots of intact males. She had to keep her on the terrace until the dog finally passed away and for a small dog probably a few years ealier then she would have had she been spayed. She died at the age of 12, being a small dog she probably had years left but she got some kind of mammary cancer. 
While I agree with Europe about ear cropping and etc I do not agree with the keeping them intact. Unless they are a responsible breeder keeping the breed/look/line and etc going, they really need to get their pet population under control.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

You made my point beautifully.
What one might think is barbaric, may a god send to others.(owner getting to keep a beloved dog)
I agree with you about cropping but some breeds do have tail damage issues if not docked. But since I don't want to do that to a pup I don't have breeds that need it. As for altering, I do require it on my pet pups but people need to also understand there are risks.
you can be a responsible owner even if you choose not to.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

tailwagging said:


> the insane part is that there isn't any real rock hard proof that there is a overpopulation. there maybe too many big dogs or black dogs or dogs that were not trained (or not debarked) but it is not the number but their size activity level and bad ownership.


What ARE you talking about? When you see homeless dogs/cats all over the streets don't try to tell me there is an over population problem. Or when people take boxes of puppies and kittens into shelters when they can't even give them away? What the fact that when I helped run a humane society I had to personally pick out dogs to get put down next because there honestly isn't enough homes for all the dogs were were getting in. And we had our dogs advertised all over the place, internet, newspaper, petfinder. We were more than happy to drive dogs hours away for free. Yet homes could not be found.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

There is no solid proof that there is an overpopulation. I can see loose dogs and cats kitten and puppies but that doesn't proof that there are too many only that they are not what someone wanted.
I want see records of how many come in and why, how many are put down and why. from all shelters.
I too helped with a very large low kill center and we couldn't keep in small dogs. even spacial needs ones. but a chow, lab or pit sat there for month sometimes years.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

There certainly IS an over population problem. Shelters here will not take dogs or cats anymore there are just far too many of them. 

I think my spaying and neutering of the stray cats must be having a good effect. We have a lot of strays here and the past few years that meant a lot of wild kittens I had to find homes for. There is a place here that does strays/ferels for $50. Since i started taking care of that there have been a lot less male cats peeing on everything, fighting, a lot less yowling female cats, and this year for the first year ever NO KITTENS.


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

Here in the US the 'pet overpopulation' problem isn't what it used to be. Cats yes, I used to do cat rescue, every year there was a new ocean of kittens, it was futile, like trying to swim during a hurricane. Dogs however are more of a regional problem, up here in the northeast there just aren't enough adoptable dogs to keep some shelters open, and so they have been importing southern puppies for years. In fact there are a number of rescue organizations that import from outside of the US as well, Save a Sato comes to mind. If you go into the shelters here all you'll really see besides lots of cats are pit crosses, lab crosses, lots of big black mixes, with some chows and huskies here and there. Why? Because the so called 'Rescues' that I call 'Resellers' pull all of the small more valuable dogs, and then resell them under the umbrella of a 501k organization. There are so many 'Rescues' up here that support their founders with volunteers doing all the grunt work thinking their helping save the dogs. Helping the founder get a paycheck is what their really doing. Anyone notice that no one gives away puppies anymore, no instead even the worst possible crosses are being sold, because people are willing to pay, because there aren't as many desirable dogs out there as there once was. Hard to believe isn't it, but the world has changed, and many people did listen to Bob Barker and spay and neutor all of those mixes that used to breed and produce lots of unidentifiable mutts. In some areas of the US yes there is a overpopulation problem, in others shortages of adoptable desireable dogs. And thats a key word here 'desireable' People who say things like every puppy/purebred puppy born takes away a home from a shelter dog is wrong, because not everyone wants a mixed breed dog from a shelter. Many do not want a large black dog, or a pit bull, or anything that might have pit bull in it. Many want small manageable dogs, and simply don't have the room for a large dog, or can't have one over 15 inches tall per their rental agreement, HOA association etc. There are studies that show that the highest percentage of dogs put to sleep in shelters are black and over 40 lbs, that is what TW is trying to explain. We are not in the middle of a horrible overall pet overpopulation epidemic, like the Animal Rights movement would like to you to believe. We are in the middle of a Pit Bull overpopulation epidemic. Labs have been the most popular breed for nearly 15 years, hence all the black dogs over 40 pounds.

The world has changed, we can open our eyes and see it, or stand still eyes glued shut spewing the same drivel that the HSUS has tried to drill into peoples brains for decades. Educate yourself, its out there.

I find this statement below very sad and disturbing, partly because I know that this person has seen so much suffering and pain that she now feels that the only answer is death. Thats what PETA thinks, and the HSUS, one generation and out is what Wayne Pacelle wants, they want all dogs and cats, domestic animals all gone forever, death is their answer as well. The real answer is cooperation and communication between shelters, moving dogs to areas where there is a demand, working together like so many shelters are now needs to spread and continue. 

I FULLY believe that 95% of dogs/cats out there are better off dead than having babies. The human mind can't even fully grasp the concept of how many homeless, abandon dogs/cats there are out there. It's really and truly insane.

I can't even imagine a world without dogs and cats, can you?


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

Honorine said:


> I FULLY believe that 95% of dogs/cats out there are better off dead than having babies. The human mind can't even fully grasp the concept of how many homeless, abandon dogs/cats there are out there. It's really and truly insane.
> 
> I can't even imagine a world without dogs and cats, can you?


I never said a world without dogs and cats. I mean a world where only the BEST dogs and cats are bred. Why on earth do we need the big black over 40lb dog making more babies? Our shelter couldn't get rid of them either although most up here are border collie crosses with white toes and chests. 

Honestly...I very rarely ever see dogs that I think are worthy of having puppies. Cats are the worst. There is literally zillions of them out there that no one wants. 

Do you have any idea how many border collie/LGD crosses I run into? Like honestly. What the hell is that? A dog that sorta wants to protect livestock, yet kinda wants to chase it too. Or stupid stuff like beagle crossed with a pomeranian. 

I live in a small town surrounded by a reserve. We have HUNDREDS of dogs running in packs in my town. Its dangerous and scary. I am so tired of rescuing dang puppies that should have NEVER been born. NEVER.


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

Want to know what my favourite cross is? Here you go- scroll down-

http://www.spectralrhapsody.com/pb/wp_bed90916/wp_bed90916.html

Yea, lets take a huge double merle sheltie and breed it to a giant schnauzer, and then we gots a new breed!!!! Giant Merle Schnelties!!!!!

Lets take a breed thats aggressive and has a high prey drive and breed it to a spooky, overly sensitive easily frightened breed. Oh yea, thats a great idea!


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

LOL and off we go on the argument again. How bout we all just give thanks that we have happy furry friends and let it go for the holidays? sis


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## belladulcinea (Jun 21, 2006)

Good idea sisterpine!

Bella is a giant pug with tons of terrier in her. Bob is a white german shepherd mix with a hint of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. I do miss my full breed collie and my very large black chow mix but these two are a hoot. I love large black dogs with a passion, in fact I love large dogs, but I'll have to do with only two!  I'd rather celebrate the joys these guys bring to our lives, they were rescued off the streets. My mom's large black dog, half greyhound half border collie gives her the comfort of safety in her home somthing some small dog couldn't do. He was a rescue as well, a Christmas gift from my dad a couple of years before he died.

As for DeadRabbit, it would appear he accomplished his goal and got people to fussing. :duel:


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

belladulcinea said:


> Good idea sisterpine!
> 
> Bella is a giant pug with tons of terrier in her. Bob is a white german shepherd mix with a hint of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. I do miss my full breed collie and my very large black chow mix but these two are a hoot. I love large black dogs with a passion, in fact I love large dogs, but I'll have to do with only two!  I'd rather celebrate the joys these guys bring to our lives, they were rescued off the streets. My mom's large black dog, half greyhound half border collie gives her the comfort of safety in her home somthing some small dog couldn't do. He was a rescue as well, a Christmas gift from my dad a couple of years before he died.
> 
> As for DeadRabbit, it would appear he accomplished his goal and got people to fussing. :duel:


My dogs are both big black dogs too...well black and tan. One is a Saskie Farmer Special. Her Dad was a black lab/Shepherd mix and her mom was a border collie/shepherd mix. I got her, a friend got her brother, and the rest of the puppies were shot. She is a 100% scatter brained screwball. Pretty much been giving me grey hair for the last 14 years. Never considered giving her away because no one else would want her. Separation anxiety, loves to run away, kills rabbits, bit my dad!, and has been totally hyper her whole life. Thank goodness other than that she is well trained. Got first place in obedience out of 16 dogs when she was 7 months old. Heels, sits, downs instantly with the flash of a hand, stops barking instantly on command, etc. 

The other dog is a black and tan dog off an indian reservation. She hasn't had a purebred dog input blood into her lines for generations. It's impossible to even guess what she is. But she is thick and likes to herd. My 'best' guess is a touch of blue heeler. Other than that she could be anything. She is the coolest dog ever. No one trained her, but she will climb on playground equipment and go down slides just because I point at them. She is a doggy genius. She can also fly onto walls 4 feet up from a standstill just because I ask her to.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

There is nothing wrong with black dogs. but it is like black cats, less homes want a big black dog. (I like black dogs and cats and horses......)

I didn't know we were fussing. I thought we were having a debate.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

belladulcinea said:


> Good idea sisterpine!
> 
> Bella is a giant pug with tons of terrier in her. Bob is a white german shepherd mix with a hint of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. I do miss my full breed collie and my very large black chow mix but these two are a hoot. I love large black dogs with a passion, in fact I love large dogs, but I'll have to do with only two!  I'd rather celebrate the joys these guys bring to our lives, they were rescued off the streets. My mom's large black dog, half greyhound half border collie gives her the comfort of safety in her home somthing some small dog couldn't do. He was a rescue as well, a Christmas gift from my dad a couple of years before he died.
> *
> As for DeadRabbit, it would appear he accomplished his goal and got people to fussing.* :duel:



ok, i guess im goin to have to renig on my last post. i can take all the punishment thats been dealt out after i signed off...hard to swallow but i can handle it. after all its easy to throw punches once someone quits fighting back.  its the way of nature. pack of dogs, pack of wolves, pack of animal righteous activists,, etc.

but i *did not* have a goal of start fussing. i wanted to express my view. b/c my view was different than most. b/c i have ACTUAL, REAL, TRUE TO LIFE experience with barking dogs, trained dogs, untrained dogs, and debarked dogs. i for one am not speaking from preconceived notions or ignorance. 

i am guilty of being sarcastic, and wording things wrong. which is a flaw of mine, and im working on it. normally i would have been in the mix of things, and ive been guilty of running people off. but i dont want to be that way no more, i'll be the one to leave first.

and for the record. im infavor of spaying and neutering most every and all pets. all mine are, except my two young cats and its a matter of time till we get them to the vet.

im infavor of docking and cropping if standard calls for it. and its advantageous to do so. ie....certain hunting breeds. and some animals look much better with a clean cut. yes im superficial. ever seen an uncropped, undocked dobie or uncropped great dane.....ridiculous. but thats my opinion only.

and im in favor of debarking all dogs unless they are hunters, and i will add working breeds...... if circumstances and environs require a worker to be debarked than they should be. better than a .22 bullet tween the eyes. or rehoming, or law taking possession and gassing them...or me getting served a warrent and then one of the mentioned three gets done anyway.

not in all circumstances does breeding or training come into play.


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

Don't feel I was argueing either, just wanted to make people think, consider that things might not be the way they've been told that it was for decades. Its hard to change such a deeply entrenched belief such as spay and neutoring has only positive benefits, when new studies show otherwise we should take notice. Its like the vaccine protocols, we were told to vaccinate our pets every year, now we know it is too much and can do harm. Now its the pet overpopulation mindset that needs to be tweaked, folks need to hear different points of view and find out for themselves whats going on out in our world.

I don't have a problem with DR or Jackie, they have differing opinions, both from each other and from mine. I don't think DR did this to set folks against each other, think he/she is just outspoken, something many of us here are guilty of.

Happy Turkey Day!!


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

:ashamed:guilty as charged:ashamed:

and definitly a *HE*










tis' i DEAD RABBIT


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Always nice to have a face with the name!  I'm a she










Me!


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Sorry but just HAVE to ask.... how did you rabbit die?:teehee:


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

who is that masked WOman?? lol. 

too much snow in the background for my taste in brandy......


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

tailwagging said:


> Sorry but just HAVE to ask.... how did you rabbit die?:teehee:


i posted the reason for my monicker in a thread recently ......but its nothing really. i raise meat rabbits. i butcher and consume my own rabbits and for a rabbit to be butchered, cooked and eaten he must be DEAD first.

and ther was an old irish gang back in mid-late 1800's called the dead rabbits or dead rabbit society. i saw it in a movie some yrs back called GANGS OF NEW YORK CITY. last rated R movie i ever watched. i thought it was a cool name and me raising meat rabbits...........wa-laaaa'!! hence the monicker DEAD RABBIT.

imo it was an interesting thread. its good to know how the "other" side feels esp. if its backed by proven theory and/or sound reasoning. every one can learn something......aint that right Ramblin Rose:indif:

some interesting links TailWaggin


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

The two little girls sound funny, but I love them just as much as if they were barkers. Thankfully I have good hearing so I can hear their "sort of bark" to tell me they need attention. All is quiet here this turkey day, daughter down in town with friends, H is in another town with other friends and I am home alone with the fur kids having a bagel for supper ! sis


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

Dead Rabbit said:


> i posted the reason for my monicker in a thread recently ......but its nothing really. i raise meat rabbits. i butcher and consume my own rabbits and for a rabbit to be butchered, cooked and eaten he must be DEAD first.
> 
> and ther was an old irish gang back in mid-late 1800's called the dead rabbits or dead rabbit society. i saw it in a movie some yrs back called GANGS OF NEW YORK CITY. last rated R movie i ever watched. i thought it was a cool name and me raising meat rabbits...........wa-laaaa'!! hence the monicker DEAD RABBIT.
> 
> ...


Dead Rabbit, I understand you have only been a member here about a month, and you probably haven't had time to meander through the other forums on Homesteading Today and to get a good feel about how threads and post go on a daily basis over time.

But as a senior member, I feel the need to remind you that one of the mottos here is BE NICE. Yes, we do throw sarcasm around in a joking way, and yes, you will see differing opinions, but the tone really does usually stay respectful and mindful. General Chat would be the place to go if you'd like to post more strongly worded rebuttals to things you do not agree with; and be answered back fervently, etc.

We are not your "pals" _yet_. You might try giving us more time to get to know you in a _gentler_ way.... And, conversly, if you feel as though someone is giving the impression that they don't share your ideals and thoughts on a topic, you can goto the "search" tab and search by their user name; you will be able to read their posts on many different topics and educate yourself a bit more about them as a whole person before you make a strongly-worded reply or observation...


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## jordan (Nov 29, 2006)

SilverFlame819 said:


> I agree that dogs sound MUCH worse when debarked than before. It may be a quieter noise, but the sound itself just makes me feel gross. Like listening to someone constantly coughing or trying to gag up phlegm.
> 
> I too take issue with people debarking their dogs. Unless it's life-threatening, find the dog a new home if you can't figure out a way to get it stopped.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I haven't really thought about de-barking a dog for decades. It just doesn't happen around this area much. My sister had an OES many years ago that was de-barked when they got him. I always thought it looked and sounded painful to watch/hear him try to bark. You certainly couldn't ask him if it was painful because, hello, his vocal cords had been screwed around with! Oh yeah, and dogs can't talk. 

I agree that people who don't want or are in a situation/place where they can't have a barking dog, SHOULD DO THE RESEARCH AND NOT GET A BREED THAT IS PREDISPOSED TO BARKING! Second to that, they should do the research on the breeders to be sure they are getting an animal that has a sound temperament and is emotionally stable!

It always amazes me (not really because people are pretty stupid) when I hear someone complain that their cute little border collie destroyed their apartment/house while they were away at work for 10 hours. :doh: :lookout:
Many breeds (due to poor breeding practices) are nervous barkers. Working breeds in particular should seldom be owned by pet people. Few are capable of directing their energy or commited enough to the dogs training. LGD's are bred to do a job that the major factor of, is barking to warn predators away. Take away that tool and chances are that the dog will be thrown into more face to face altercations that could lead to injuries that could have been avoided if their first line/tool of defense wasn't taken away.
JMHO
Lois


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

Honorine said:


> Don't feel I was argueing either, just wanted to make people think, consider that things might not be the way they've been told that it was for decades. Its hard to change such a deeply entrenched belief such as spay and neutoring has only positive benefits, when new studies show otherwise we should take notice. Its like the vaccine protocols, we were told to vaccinate our pets every year, now we know it is too much and can do harm. Now its the pet overpopulation mindset that needs to be tweaked, folks need to hear different points of view and find out for themselves whats going on out in our world.
> 
> I don't have a problem with DR or Jackie, they have differing opinions, both from each other and from mine. I don't think DR did this to set folks against each other, think he/she is just outspoken, something many of us here are guilty of.
> 
> Happy Turkey Day!!


Thanks for not having a problem with me.  And I quit vaccinating my dogs yearly years ago. lol! I vaccinate about every 2 years for the first few years and then quit. My 14 year old dog hasn't been done in about 8 years. Pretty sure she is gonna make it!


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

jill.costello said:


> Dead Rabbit, I understand you have only been a member here about a month, and you probably haven't had time to meander through the other forums on Homesteading Today and to get a good feel about how threads and post go on a daily basis over time.
> 
> But as a senior member, I feel the need to remind you that one of the mottos here is BE NICE. Yes, we do throw sarcasm around in a joking way, and yes, you will see differing opinions, but the tone really does usually stay respectful and mindful. General Chat would be the place to go if you'd like to post more strongly worded rebuttals to things you do not agree with; and be answered back fervently, etc.
> 
> We are not your "pals" _yet_. You might try giving us more time to get to know you in a _gentler_ way.... And, conversly, if you feel as though someone is giving the impression that they don't share your ideals and thoughts on a topic, you can goto the "search" tab and search by their user name; you will be able to read their posts on many different topics and educate yourself a bit more about them as a whole person before you make a strongly-worded reply or observation...


gottcha and duly noted. but i think your "be nice" speech should also be directed to a number of other senior members here also. bullying and gestapo style techniques dont always work on those that are new. never mistaken new for weak.

with that said. i was wrong with a lot of NOT what i said, but how i went about saying it............and obviously i stumbled unto an area of town i didnt belong in with my method of writing...or even would have thought existed here.........i assumed this was a homesteading site. im beginning to think my definition of homesteading is vastly different than others.


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

Dead Rabbit said:


> gottcha and duly noted. but i think your "be nice" speech should also be directed to a number of other senior members here also. bullying and gestapo style techniques dont always work on those that are new. never mistaken new for weak.
> 
> with that said. i was wrong with a lot of NOT what i said, but how i went about saying it............and obviously i stumbled unto an area of town i didnt belong in with my method of writing...or even would have thought existed here.........i assumed this was a homesteading site. im beginning to think my definition of homesteading is vastly different than others.


Trust me, others have been "reminded" a time or two, as well. On the topic of what might be called "traditional homesteading", you might check out the very active Survival and Emergency Preparedness forum and the Homesteading Questions forum covers a vast array of unique topics from use of cisterns to in-floor heating and I just saw a topic about thatched-roof homes!

Homesteading does mean different things to different people, perhaps "self-reliance" might be a good way of putting how all the forums tie together: creative ideas and techniques to take care of ourselves, our land, our homes, and our livestock.

I think there was even a thread with that very topic not long ago on the Homesteading Questions forum, "What does Homesteading mean to you?". If you'd like, you can "revive" that thread by doing a search on it and then replying to it.

Welcome to a very diverse group of THOUSANDS of people, many of whom have known each other online for years. :clap:


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2010)

Honorine said:


> People who say things like every puppy/purebred puppy born takes away a home from a shelter dog is wrong, because not everyone wants a mixed breed dog from a shelter. Many do not want a large black dog, or a pit bull, or anything that might have pit bull in it. Many want small manageable dogs, and simply don't have the room for a large dog, or can't have one over 15 inches tall per their rental agreement, HOA association etc. There are studies that show that the highest percentage of dogs put to sleep in shelters are black and over 40 lbs, that is what TW is trying to explain. We are not in the middle of a horrible overall pet overpopulation epidemic, like the Animal Rights movement would like to you to believe. We are in the middle of a Pit Bull overpopulation epidemic.


Honorine, you have made some excellent points. Thank you.
We need to learn the difference between a *"dog overpopulation"* problem and a *"unadoptable dog overpopulation"* problem.


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## FoxyWench (Jan 22, 2010)

personally i feel if a dog wasnt meant to bark, it would be bred not to bark, dont want your dog barking, get a basenji or other "barkless" breed...

just like want a dog with standy uppy ears, buy a dog with standy uppy ears...

i understand the reason behind origionally cropping ears, but the crops we have now are ridiculouse, the FUNCTIONING crop of past days was meant to protect the ears from being grabed/bitten and torn off, it was a relitilvly short tight crop done for medical/safety reasons...
now these huge crops that take forever to heal and stand as tall as possible...POINTLESS! in most of europe dogs are shown naturally

docking i have less of a problem with because its still a functioning thing in working breeds, (ive seen a feild cocker break its tail, not a pretty sight), its also a much less invasive procedure when done properly at the correct age. BUT i still agree along the lines of if you want a dog tailless, buy a breed thats naturlly tailless...
infact id even support breeders mixing breeds to create naturally tail less versions of breeds typically docked, (as long as they were doing it ethically)

spay/neuter has health benefits, testicular cancer that spreads to the pancreas, kidneys, livers stomach ect isnt pretty...
mammary tumors and pyometra are HORRIBLE afflictions that can kill dogs...

im not quite sure how cutting through a dogs vocal chords could be considered a "painless" surgery anymore than you could say cutting your own vocal chords would be painless....
the only difference being your dog cant tell you his throat hurts...

its outlawed where im from and is such a strange concept to me...
i also cant stand the wheezy/rhaspy sound a debarked dog makes...it makes me feel sick to my stomach.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

I just have to disagree...

I think Great Danes with cropped ears look RIDICULOUS. Their ears are HUGE and just don't look good standing up and flapping in the wind. I don't like the cropped look AT ALL on Danes.

I also prefer floppy ears on Dobies. I think that the cropped ears make them "look cool" but I've also seen some super ugly crop jobs. I just prefer them with floppy ears. I was super excited with Dobies finally starting winning confirmation events with natural ears! One point for breeders who are working on the type and not relying on ears to give their dogs "that look"... I did see, for the first time just about a week ago, a Dobie with both floppy ears AND a natural tail. When I asked the owner if it was a Dobie (it just looked... SO not-Dobie-like with a long, curly tail!) he was surprised that I guessed right. Apparently most people don't recognize a Dobie with floppy ears and a tail. I agree, the long, whippy, happy, gay tail was a bit bizarre looking on a Dobie, but I think if I saw them with tails more often, it wouldn't look strange at all.

And what's this with breeds that CAN'T have long tails, that they are cut off because of health reasons?? I've never heard of such a breed! Please, if there is any truth to this, enlighten me... so that I can grumble about stupid breeders a bit more.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

Also, I watched Grown Ups last night... The dog in the movie is debarked. It's a comedy point in the movie... how the dog sounds like a horrible dying turkey. (Although the dog in the movie has a much louder bark than any debarked dog I've ever heard, it is the first movie I've ever seen a debarked dog in... Especially a debarked dog where the whole point of his existence in the movie was to make him a "unique" character)...

I think Foxy has a point too.. If people bought dogs based on the characteristics they liked, we wouldn't need to breed other lines into something that they're not, or alter them. Certainly would make the Dingo/Basenji population rise (although I'm sure then that we'd have to breed them to be more social, less one-person-dog-ish, and less aggressive/dominant)...


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## FoxyWench (Jan 22, 2010)

silver, i dont belive theres any that have to have them cut off for health reasons unless the dog has been injured and amputation is nessicary...

but dogs often used in feild hunting, a long tail can be a hazard...9the one i saw was a tailed english cocker on a feild trial, her tail got gaught in a branble bush and she was in such a go mode that she didnt notice, she ended up breaking the tail then as she pulled (while screaming and tryign to free herself) she shredded what was left on the thorns...

since seeing that i still agree with docked tails for WORKING dogs that have had the tails strength bred out over the years, and by working dog i mean a dog that does the job not just a dog whos of a breed that does the job lol.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

I've seen english coonhounds with and without tails. The vet said Brandi's may have to be removed if she ever gets a wound on it as with that breed the tails are very BONY and they wag and hit them on everything preventing healing. That was his reasoning anyway. She never had a wound on it so got to keep her tail though it hurt like the dickens when she'd slap you with it LOL


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## Pyrenees (Oct 23, 2004)

sisterpine said:


> OM goodness, I just found out that Emma does not have a throat injury she has been debarked. I am stunned. Does this hurt her, she seems happy enough? I don't want to argue the issue, it is what it is. Seller thinks Ruthie Mae is debarked too though I heard her bark loudly yesterday. I feel sad for Emma. sisterpine


Back to the original topic...no, debarking does not hurt long-term, as in physical pain. Many people when hearing the sound a debarked dog makes assume the hoarseness must mean the dog is in chronic pain. 

The skill of the operator doing the debark determines to a large degree the outcome of the surgery. 

Good surgeon = minimal abount of "webbing" forming across the bottom of the larynx and no reduction in diameter of the larynx.

Poor surgeon = heavy scar tissue resulting in decrease diameter and exercise intolerance and difficulty intubating when under anesthesia.

Debarking certain DOES NOT result in a completely silent dog, but it does reduce with high pitches and sharp tones at the upper end of the sound spectrum. These are the ones that carry and annoy the neighbors.

Immediate post-operative pain is less than spay/neuter/ear crop. In the hands of a decent surgeon a debark takes about 30 seconds to resect the appropriate fold of tissue. 

I am mildly opposed to debarks, just like I am to declaws and other convenience surgeries...but I do them because it saves animals' lives, and because I am heavily involved in sled dogs and I know if that if I do them, at least they are being done properly with good analgesia. If I refused they would get done at a butcher shop of a vet clinic.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

Whoa, wait a minute. Sled dog breeders are debarking now??

I've never been to Alaska, but in the times I've watched the live coverage of the Iditarod, those dogs sound like a pack of beagles on the scent of a fox... 

So it's becoming the new fad to have quiet runners too, huh?

This is so weird to me.

At high-end sheepdog trials, the fields are silent. Border Collies are silent workers. Dogs who bark while herding generally don't herd to the world-class degree of a BC so aren't at the world-class trials... There are certainly breeds who bark while herding (barkaway/huntaway style dogs who were bred to be drovers and heelers mostly), but the dogs at the high end of the spectrum use eye and power, not noise and erratic body movement... Isn't there a way to breed quiet into sled dogs? I mean, most sled dogs these days it seems are total mutts anyway... Breeders have bred in Border Collie, Greyhound -- all kinds of weird breeds -- just to create "the perfect sled dog"... Can't they mix some more "quiet" into the pot?


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

FoxyWench said:


> BUT i still agree along the lines of if you want a dog tailless, buy a breed thats naturlly tailless...
> infact id even support breeders mixing breeds to create naturally tail less versions of breeds typically docked, (as long as they were doing it ethically)


They've been doing this with Boxers.

http://www.boxerunderground.com/1998 issues/oct_bu_98/bobtail.htm


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

SilverFlame819 said:


> I think Great Danes with cropped ears look RIDICULOUS. Their ears are HUGE and just don't look good standing up and flapping in the wind. I don't like the cropped look AT ALL on Danes.


I have to agree... if it was a shorter crop it would look fine, but that looooong show crop that they're doing on Danes and Dobies is absurd. The ears rarely stand up unless the dog's head is positioned just right.

But I have to say I do like the look of a nice crop. I don't think I'd choose to do it, though, unless I had a show dog.

And I like tails. Docked tails for some breeds serve a purpose, but I like a tail that I can grab onto... it's really hard to shave a schnauzer's butt when he's got his little nub clamped down and you can't grab a hold of it!


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

"barkless" dogs yodel
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S12mJk7GPiY&feature=related[/ame]
Inherited taillessness can case more harm then correct docking. example Manx Syndrome (spina bifida)


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## Pyrenees (Oct 23, 2004)

SilverFlame819 said:


> I've never been to Alaska, but in the times I've watched the live coverage of the Iditarod, those dogs sound like a pack of beagles on the scent of a fox...
> 
> So it's becoming the new fad to have quiet runners too, huh?


I would say well over 50% of the Iditarod dogs are debarked.



SilverFlame819 said:


> Isn't there a way to breed quiet into sled dogs?


Ummh - along the lines of Iditarod dogs - speed and desire to run are what are bred for. Everything else is secondary. 


SilverFlame819 said:


> I mean, most sled dogs these days it seems are total mutts anyway... Breeders have bred in Border Collie, Greyhound -- all kinds of weird breeds -- just to create "the perfect sled dog"... Can't they mix some more "quiet" into the pot?


Just like baking the perfect lasagna? Add a pinch of Shih Tzu and viola. :happy:


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Pyrenees said:


> I would say well over 50% of the Iditarod dogs are debarked.


Why is that? Do the neighbors complain?


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## Pyrenees (Oct 23, 2004)

Wolf Flower said:


> Why is that? Do the neighbors complain?


A lot of "professiona"l kennels have 50+ dogs. They will have the "A" team, several developmental teams and often retired dogs that run with the younger dogs to teach them the ropes.

Even if the kennel is remote, which a lot are, the cumulutive sound of 50 dogs barking at feeding time or when they see the sleds being hooked up can be quite defeaning.


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## longshadowfarms (Nov 27, 2002)

Pyrenees said:


> The skill of the operator doing the debark determines to a large degree the outcome of the surgery.
> 
> Good surgeon = minimal abount of "webbing" forming across the bottom of the larynx and no reduction in diameter of the larynx.
> 
> ...


One would think that if a poor surgeon might leave them with exercise intolerance that mushers would DEFINITELY want a good surgeon! Yikes! I confess I've only met two mushers and their dogs but none of them were debarked. Yes, it was VERY loud hooking them to the sleds! Sweet dogs though.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

jill.costello said:


> But as a senior member, I feel the need to remind you that one of the mottos here is BE NICE.



This is something I have to comment on because its been brought up before. There are no "ranks" here, people that have been members here a long time, have no more standing than someone that just joined. WE ARE ALL EQUAL HERE. That attitude has turned a lot of people away from HT. 



jill.costello said:


> We are not your "pals" _yet_.


Don't speak for everyone :shrug:


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

I'm not opposed to debarking, but just wanted to suggest a bark collar first. It would help more with smaller dogs than the giant breeds, but you might try. 
GP bark all night long. They all do it, it's just normal for the breed. That's why they are better suited for farm life than city life. The barking is part of their protection skills.


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## lauriej57 (Nov 20, 2008)

I like what Shygal has to say!

Now I have to put my 2 cents in. But first, I'd like to say that in a forum such as this, we are all here to ask advise, offer advise, take the advise if we want, not take it if we don't want to, There are also many different people here, and we all have our own opinions, and we should all respect the different opinions that people have.

I am not going to voice my opinion on debarking, ear cropping, tail docking or any of that.

What I do know, is that there are people in this site that have very strong opinions, and they are often not nice about how they express themselves when they don't agree with others.

I know, I have been a victim in the past. I asked questions, didn't take most of the advice, and felt pretty much ostracized from this site. I've pretty much become a lurker, reading, learning, but I don't comment very often, and I never ask for advise anymore. 

I'm really surprised that this thread has not been locked.... mine was locked....and I pretty much didn't say anything after everyone started slamming me. 

One of these days soon, I will post pics and bring my story up again, as a reminder to everyone that their way is not always right. 

If everyone would just respect each others opinions when they are different than our own, everything would be fine. People who don't agree and can't respect the others opinions should just not post.

I also know that most of the people in the chicken forum are much nicer.


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## WstTxLady (Mar 14, 2009)

i don't understand why this thread is even going anymore.


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## GoldenMom (Jan 2, 2005)

It's still here because *most* people have been civil. And unlike some other recent threads, the OP didn't say I'm having my dog debarked and then received a bunch of opinions saying that she was maiming her dog. There has been a reasonable amount of good information in this thread.


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

LOL go figure no one got outa hand this time. Just a reminder, these dogs were debarked when i rescued them. Little Ruthie has a bigger bark (but still reduced) than bigger Emma, Gracie has her normal (i am queen of the mountain) bark. So far everyone is getting along fairly well. sis


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