# Any opinions on the German jet crash?



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

It kind of reminds me of the Maylasian jet that crashed into the ocean with no distress calls. They're saying one of the pilots of this one can be heard on the black box. He was locked out of the cockpit for some reason and trying to break in the door when it crashed. I always suspect Muzzie involvement but there could be other things going on. It would take a pretty cold suicidal pilot to kill everyone else on the plane too.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

I bet he had a heart attack or something?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

There was another recent flight where the pilot was accidentally locked out of the cockpit. I'm not sure if that was an Airbus too. The copilot landed the plane.

Given some of the computer related glitches, one of which was a blocked air speed indicator, pilots have become disoriented even with thousands of hours under their belt.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I am hearing them say it was deliberate. Listening to the translation of the press confrence right now.


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Yes the Germans say the first officer was accelerating when he deliberately crashed


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

I hadn't heard that last. I figured the pilot might have gone to the head, and the pilot flying the plane had some sort of medical event that prevented him from opening the door or controlling the plane. It's a tragedy, no matter what happened.


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## LT2108 (May 28, 2014)

Huge tragedy, I have not listened to the press conference, as of yet


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Belfrybat said:


> I hadn't heard that last. I figured the pilot might have gone to the head, and the pilot flying the plane had some sort of medical event that prevented him from opening the door or controlling the plane. It's a tragedy, no matter what happened.


The other pilot would not let him in. Pounding could be heard on the door. The inside pilot was calm and dileberatly crashed it.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Told my wife when I first heard of it that the details given indicated a deliberate crash--probably another Muslim suicide-murder.

This mornings news bears out all but the "Muslim" part.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Oxankle said:


> Told my wife when I first heard of it that the details given indicated a deliberate crash--probably another Muslim suicide-murder.
> 
> This mornings news bears out all but the "Muslim" part.


Have they released the co-pilot's name yet? Last night I read the pilot was Chinese but they hadn't released to co-pilot's name.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

According to AP Article, Andreas Lubitz, a 28-year-old German.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

I read they said in the morning briefing that the black box showed the co-pilot was breathing normally and deliberately crashed the plane. They also said he didn't say a word until just before the plane crashed, when he shouted something but they couldn't tell what he said. I'm betting it was Allahu Akbar. A 28 year old is prime age for a Muslim convert and people familiar with Germany say he lived in a town with a high Muslim population. Very likely a lone wolf terrorist of the sort ISIS has been encouraging to act out. If true, it will hurt aviation worldwide but I look for Germany and the US to downplay any terror connection.


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

The outcome of this will be really interesting for the airline industry.

If I remember correctly, all military transport aircraft have a no-alone policy in place. IIRC, U.S. commercial aviation regulations require it. Essentially, under normal operations, a single individual alone in on the flight deck is not allowed. There must always be at least two. That is where the military crew chief came into play. If one of the pilots had to use the facilities the crew chief or cargo master had to be on the flight deck.

Fast forwarding to the present day and sliding over to the commercial side, this will be more difficult. Most, if not all, commercial aircraft no longer have a flight engineer who could have served that purpose. There are just the two pilots. 

There is talk of using flight attendants for this purpose and many U.S. airlines do, but most flight attendants are female and unfortunately may not be able to overcome a male pilot determined to crash the aircraft.

Like I said the airline industry is going to go through more changes. Especially overseas airlines.

TRellis


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I've read that he had a "check up" and from then had to be checked often. Mental? Also, many did not want to Pilot with him. There is also some "card" missing from flight recording equitment. Also the way the door was locked to the cabin.
(sorry, I have no link and have read hundreds of ....of info today, so this is the best I can do until I find it for you)


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

double post


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

as far as I can see nobody said allah Akbar. I read he didn't say a thing . at the end he was very calm right to his death. I did hear some doctor say when a person has decided to do it they are very calm at the end. it was the pilot that was calling out and trying to get him to unlock the door. and there were screams just at the end. they are going to have to put some changes in place regards to being able to open the door. maybe a code or something . jmo ~Georgia


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

newfieannie said:


> as far as I can see nobody said allah Akbar. I read he didn't say a thing . at the end he was very calm right to his death. I did hear some doctor say when a person has decided to do it they are very calm at the end. it was the pilot that was calling out and trying to get him to unlock the door. and there were screams just at the end. they are going to have to put some changes in place regards to being able to open the door. maybe a code or something . jmo ~Georgia


The door lock has 3 positions. One, where it takes a code to open it.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

oh I see. I hadn't read Poppys post about the town he lived in. could be you know. if so it'll all come out shortly. what a shame. all those innocents! ~Georgia.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

pic of door lock


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## snoozy (May 10, 2002)

Right. Now even if the co-pilot is as Aryan as Angela herself, you want to make out that because he was 28, he was a "likely" Muslim convert and of course all Muslim converts are terrorists. Sheesh. Because only a Muslim would commit suicide, right? 

What a pathetic and fearful line of thinking.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

snoozy said:


> Sheesh. Because only a Muslim would commit suicide, right?
> 
> What a pathetic and fearful line of thinking.


If there's a pattern of mass murder in recent history, what would you say was the common link?


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## InTownForNow (Oct 16, 2008)

Takjng down 150 people isnt suicide.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

snoozy said:


> Right. Now even if the co-pilot is as Aryan as Angela herself, you want to make out that because he was 28, he was a "likely" Muslim convert and of course all Muslim converts are terrorists. Sheesh. Because only a Muslim would commit suicide, right?
> 
> What a pathetic and fearful line of thinking.


I don't know who Angela is or what Aryan has to do with anything.
It certianly looks like they are trying to cover up something when they have scrubbed the pilots Facebook page and the wayback machines copy of that page.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

7thswan said:


> I don't know who Angela is or what Aryan has to do with anything.
> It certianly looks like they are trying to cover up something when they have scrubbed the pilots Facebook page and the wayback machines copy of that page.


Well if being Aryan doesn't have anything to do with it, why would being Muslim convert have anything? I mean there is a scream at the end of the recording and a poster immediately goes to the co pilot being a Muslim. Could he not just as easily been screaming "Seig Heil" or Yippee!

And who is doing the covering up? It just makes sense since there was a crime committed and the Facebook page could have information, they would seize it?


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## snoozy (May 10, 2002)

Angela Merkel. You know, the chancellor of Germany?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

The copilot was one crazy dude, for sure.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

keenataz said:


> Well if being Aryan doesn't have anything to do with it, why would being Muslim convert have anything? I mean there is a scream at the end of the recording and a poster immediately goes to the co pilot being a Muslim. Could he not just as easily been screaming "Seig Heil" or Yippee!
> 
> And who is doing the covering up? It just makes sense since there was a crime committed and the Facebook page could have information, they would seize it?


OK , simple, 70% of terrorist acts all over the world right now are done by muslims.Your "Seig Heil" is done by big goverment lovers-Stalin,Hitler, muslim ect ect. I know you are implying the right are NAZI's , which in a 2 party world-communist and socialist-yes Hitler was on the right of Stalin-Stalin-communist,Hitler,Socialist/Fashist. Has nothing to do with Americas politial system. We do not have the european system. I know it is very confuseing with what you have been "taught" so the best way to figure it out is -GOVERMENT CONTROL". People that do not want the government to force them buy insurance-are not leftys. People that accept the government control of such things are on the left. Socialist, communist all diffrent degrees of control. So is sharia law-muslim-CONTROL. Our gov. now has control of the internet-so yes, they will take FB posts and go erase what they want there and on the wayback machine. YOU nolonger have the Freedom to get the facts. Google, facebook,snopes,wiki ect,ect,ect are well known for bowing to the government. I'm sure you now tell me it's for my own good.I was so dissed for writeing down and screenshoting all the info I have. Dumb, stupid me, huh?


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## snoozy (May 10, 2002)

I'm pointing out the racism, CMG Shannon. :smack


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Two different interviews with those who knew him said he was good friends with at least a couple of Muslims. Evidently his Facebook page had some stuff to Muslim links. We shall see


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## InTownForNow (Oct 16, 2008)

Wow really? Now it is "racism" to repeat a fact?


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Ozarks Tom said:


> If there's a pattern of mass murder in recent history, what would you say was the common link?


Amish :idea:


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## fixitguy (Nov 2, 2010)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Amish :idea:



They do have weapons of mass construction. :nanner:


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## snoozy (May 10, 2002)

Whose fact do you mean?


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## InTownForNow (Oct 16, 2008)

It was deleted, so i cant repost i assume.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Amish :idea:


ROTFL. Horse drawn planes running into the sides of barns. I like it!


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

American pilots must have periodic psychiatric evaluations. German pilots do not.

At least, they don't right now. 

He went to flight school in Phoenix in 2008, and took a leave of absence for reasons that still have to be confirmed, but it looks like he had a bout of major depression.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

trying to get screenshot to post
it's encrypted , can't show image of FB page. muslim stuff on scrubbed page.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

Leave the cockpit door open, screen the passengers for guns and explosives and arm the crew with guns with rubber bullets. I doubt a planeload of passengers could be controlled by a knife/boxcutters/scissors since 911.

There is probably no way to be 100% foolproof. It's still the safest way to travel by a long shot.


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

http://speisa.com/modules/articles/...ermanwings-airbus-was-a-convert-to-islam.html



> Translation from German:
> 
> All evidence indicates that the copilot of Airbus machine in his six-months break during his training as a pilot in Germanwings, converted to Islam and subsequently either by the order of "radical", ie. devout Muslims , or received the order from the book of terror, the Quran, on his own accord decided to carry out this mass murder.


Of course this is the internet so one needs a couple of more sources to confirm the above information but it is something to look for. In Europe the Islam issue is just as sensitive as racial issues are here, so one wonders if there will be any official statement or not if this article is true.

A second thought, was he on any medication for depression? Some of those medications can cause people to commit suicide.

Hey as I said watch and see if there is any more articles to confirm the one above... http://www.tpnn.com/2015/03/27/breaking-germanwings-co-pilot-was-muslim-convert/ ...


> Undoubtedly, the left will categorize this murderous act as an episode of &#8220;workplace violence&#8221; or as a result of the actions of a &#8220;mentally unstable&#8221; individual.


.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

http://news.yahoo.com/german-pilot-said-suffered-depression-anxiety-102007809--sector.html


DUESSELDORF, Germany (Reuters) - German authorities found torn-up sick notes showing that the pilot who crashed a plane into the French Alps was suffering from an illness that should have grounded him on the day of the tragedy, which he apparently hid from the airline.

French prosecutors believe Andreas Lubitz, 27, locked himself alone in the cockpit of the Germanwings Airbus A320 on Tuesday and deliberately steered it into a mountain, killing all 150 people on board.

"Documents with medical contents were confiscated that point towards an existing illness and corresponding treatment by doctors," said the prosecutors' office in Duesseldorf, where the co-pilot lived and where the doomed flight from Barcelona was heading.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

http://pamelageller.com/2015/03/ger...holy-martyr-lubitz-died-for-our-prophet.html/



Contains screenshot of the scrubbed FB page.And more info.


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## snoozy (May 10, 2002)

Ha! That's a good one! I saw a "screenshot" of a "scrubbed" facebook page where he was praised by Eskimos and Bikini Islanders for becoming a Glorious Martyr in the War Against Global Warming. [prophead]

I've got a bridge I can sell you, too. :happy:


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

7thswan said:


> http://pamelageller.com/2015/03/ger...holy-martyr-lubitz-died-for-our-prophet.html/
> 
> Contains screenshot of the scrubbed FB page.And more info.


How do you know that this Facebook page wasn't made AFTER he crashed the plane? Don't you think it's just a bit naive to take it at face value?


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

7thswan said:


> OK , simple, 70% of terrorist acts all over the world right now are done by muslims.Your "Seig Heil" is done by big goverment lovers-Stalin,Hitler, muslim ect ect. I know you are implying the right are NAZI's , which in a 2 party world-communist and socialist-yes Hitler was on the right of Stalin-Stalin-communist,Hitler,Socialist/Fashist. Has nothing to do with Americas politial system. We do not have the european system. I know it is very confuseing with what you have been "taught" so the best way to figure it out is -GOVERMENT CONTROL". People that do not want the government to force them buy insurance-are not leftys. People that accept the government control of such things are on the left. Socialist, communist all diffrent degrees of control. So is sharia law-muslim-CONTROL. Our gov. now has control of the internet-so yes, they will take FB posts and go erase what they want there and on the wayback machine. YOU nolonger have the Freedom to get the facts. Google, facebook,snopes,wiki ect,ect,ect are well known for bowing to the government. I'm sure you now tell me it's for my own good.I was so dissed for writeing down and screenshoting all the info I have. Dumb, stupid me, huh?




I was in no way implying the right are Nazis as I do not believe that. I personally believe the Nazis were a form of evil that we very seldom see in this world. I may disagree with people but never infer that unless they were actually spewing Nazi hate. And again I may disagree with you but I hope that you did not take that I think you are stupid or dumb. In fact I find many of your postings interesting and food for thought, even if I don't agree.

What I was trying to say was we have no idea what he was saying, as another poster implied he said a Muslim phrase. I used Seig Heil because he was German that is all. And it was probably in poor taste.

BTW your "Wayback Machine" makes me think of Sherman and Peabody.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

They should still have a third flight deck officer so that there are always two in the cockpit.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Shrek said:


> They should still have a third flight deck officer so that there are always two in the cockpit.


Good a dead heading pilot


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

It seems he was hiding his mentail illness, an illness that would possibly grounded him come July, when his license would be reissued. Not that I'm trying to change anyone's theories. 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/germanw...d-medical-condition-says-spokesman-1427450383


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Doggonedog said:


> How do you know that this Facebook page wasn't made AFTER he crashed the plane? Don't you think it's just a bit naive to take it at face value?


Me? Naive? That is seriously amusing. I didn't vote for Obama. I suppose that is why anyone would like to diss anything Pam Geller does. I have no idea if the screengrab is real, but PG dosen't want to fool anyone. I keep my mind open enough to know that most governments want to keep muslims involvemt in so much murder on the down low. I looked right after the crash with my own 2 eyes, the FB page was taken down and the wayback machine scrubbed the info there. It's not unusual.

So why would I want to be naive? What do you get out of ignoring what is going on?


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

7thswan said:


> http://pamelageller.com/2015/03/ger...holy-martyr-lubitz-died-for-our-prophet.html/
> 
> 
> 
> Contains screenshot of the scrubbed FB page.And more info.


 Maybe 'naive' is the wrong word. How about 'gullible'?? Did you even notice the 'screenshot' your touting as some sort of Muslim conspiracy was not even the co-pilots??? It says 'FANS OF Lubitz'... so it wasn't even made by him. ANYONE can make a page like that and post whatever they want, until FB decides it violates their rules and takes it down. 
And Pam Geller is another far-right conspiracy kook, out to generate web hits and ad traffic.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

7thswan said:


> Me? Naive? That is seriously amusing. I didn't vote for Obama. I suppose that is why anyone would like to diss anything Pam Geller does. I have no idea if the screengrab is real, but PG dosen't want to fool anyone. I keep my mind open enough to know that most governments want to keep muslims involvemt in so much murder on the down low. I looked right after the crash with my own 2 eyes, the FB page was taken down and the wayback machine scrubbed the info there. It's not unusual.
> 
> So why would I want to be naive? What do you get out of ignoring what is going on?


You put that "scrubbed Facebook page" up as "proof" that the pilot was Muslim, did you not? Why get upset when it's pointed out (several times) that it could so very very easily be a page that was done after the crash? It's not like it was the pilot's page, it's one that some hate group did to honor him. That group could of very well co-opted the tragedy to use to bolster their agenda. You understand agendas, right?

I have that odd tendency to refrain from judgement until the facts (proven facts from several reliable sources) rather than to jump on the bigoted view of "The Muslims did it! They do everything! Kill them all!" Which is simply wrong, and so very unChrist like it makes my head ache. I don't want all Christians judged on the views of the Christian extremists of the Westboro Baptist Church and their ilk, so why lump all Muslims with Muslim extremists?

I didn't vote for Obama so there goes your theory that I'm only posting to further the agenda of a lame duck President.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

greg273 said:


> Maybe 'naive' is the wrong word. How about 'gullible'?? Did you even notice the 'screenshot' your touting as some sort of Muslim conspiracy was not even the co-pilots??? It says 'FANS OF Lubitz'... so it wasn't even made by him. ANYONE can make a page like that and post whatever they want, until FB decides it violates their rules and takes it down.
> And Pam Geller is another far-right conspiracy kook, out to generate web hits and ad traffic.


Exactly. Perhaps gullible is a better word...


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

In Europe as well as here people are wondering about the motive of the pilot. The idea goes that if he just wanted to commit suicide, most people just kill themselves. Occasionally, some one hates their wife or family so much they wish to take them with them. On even rarer occasions someone hates the world and wants to take as many people with them as possible. So he question arises why did he want to take all these people with him? Some speculation on line has suggested he might have been or had homosexual leanings. Did the world do something to hurt him and anger him that he felt no problem in killing others beside himself? Some alternate news media in Germany have stated he was a convert to Islam, I still haven't found independent confirmation of this yet. However if he was, did he decide he could improve his life in the afterworld by doing jihad in this one? End his sorry life and at the same time rack up brownie points in the next one? If he wanted to just commit suicide why not jump out a window or he was a glider pilot, just crash his own glider? So the speculation that he might be Muslim is trying to put a reason to his actions. Now all that said, the European news media is very careful to dance around his religion, why? If he was Catholic or Protestant, they would have said so to shame the right wing people in Europe who are speculating he was Muslim. All we hear on the subject from the mainstream is crickets. So, I see a mentally ill pilot who decided to take other people with him for some reason yet to be clarified.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

The copilot was a psychiatric patient, and had told his girlfriend he was planning something big, something that would change the system, and everyone would know his name. 
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0MN11N20150328?irpc=932


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

I also read this morning that he was being treated for vision problems. If he was already mentally unstable then developed an eye issue he thought might end his career, that might have pushed him over the edge mentally.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Shrek said:


> They should still have a third flight deck officer so that there are always two in the cockpit.


When I was young they always had a third person, a navigator to keep track of where they were. Modern instrumentation made the navigator obsolete. Airlines saved a fortune by eliminating the navigator.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

when I heard that about his girlfriend I wondered why in this day and age and in his position why she didn't report that conversation to someone. it's not like she just crawled off a turnip truck. we are all aware of what can happen and has already happened in other instances where conversations like that have taken place beforehand. I'd have to do something or at least try. maybe she did. that remains to be seen. ~Georgia


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## BadFordRanger (Apr 26, 2014)

thesedays said:


> American pilots must have periodic psychiatric evaluations. German pilots do not.
> 
> At least, they don't right now.
> 
> He went to flight school in Phoenix in 2008, and took a leave of absence for reasons that still have to be confirmed, but it looks like he had a bout of major depression.


This was on the News here in Virginia today. He had problems with depression and that by its self should have taken his wings away, PERIOD!

And about the two compared to three people in the cockpit. That is baloney. 
Any person, even a small woman can kill a large man in an instant if she knows she is going to do so and he hasn't a clue. 
This might sound gross to most of you but an ink pen palmed in a woman's hand can be rammed into the brain of an unsuspecting man in less than a split second, if she has the desire to do so. 
If they put two guards in the cock pit on all flights, who is to say that one of the guards doesn't kill the other one first, leaving only two pilots cramped in their seats with their back to him when TmHTF? 

There is not any protection against the idiots of this time and day!

Godspeed

Ranger


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

newfieannie said:


> when I heard that about his girlfriend I wondered why in this day and age and in his position why she didn't report that conversation to someone. it's not like she just crawled off a turnip truck. we are all aware of what can happen and has already happened in other instances where conversations like that have taken place beforehand. I'd have to do something or at least try. maybe she did. that remains to be seen. ~Georgia



Maybe she is the Muslim. There must be a Muslim in the woodpile somewhere.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

newfieannie said:


> when I heard that about his girlfriend I wondered why in this day and age and in his position why she didn't report that conversation to someone. it's not like she just crawled off a turnip truck. we are all aware of what can happen and has already happened in other instances where conversations like that have taken place beforehand. I'd have to do something or at least try. maybe she did. that remains to be seen. ~Georgia



In hindsight, you are right but people often made grand comments about things. 

Last week was not a fun one for me and at one point, I did mention, in frustration, something about a clock tower and and an AK 47. 

Obviously, it's a figure of speech and I meant nothing more than venting but I think people just can't wrap their head around the idea that someone they care about would do something like that.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

OK, that's it. The airline knew of co-pilot's mental problems.

http://abcnews.go.com/International...s-episode-severe-depression/story?id=30031181

The airline is going to get sued back the the stone age, and they deserve it.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Thing is even though he told them he was depressed he was cleared by medical doctors to fly. The company can only go on doctor recommendations. If they clear him then the company cant be held liable. He could have also down played the severity to the company who then consulted the doctors who cleared him. Sounds like the company did is job but the doctors did not.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Vahomesteaders said:


> Thing is even though he told them he was depressed he was cleared by medical doctors to fly. The company can only go on doctor recommendations. If they clear him then the company cant be held liable. He could have also down played the severity to the company who then consulted the doctors who cleared him. Sounds like the company did is job but the doctors did not.


Mark my words; the airline will be paying off big-time on this one.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

I thought the same thing when I heard it just a little while ago. big time! ~Georgia


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## jefferson (Nov 11, 2004)

bad things happen. Always will.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

jefferson said:


> bad things happen. Always will.


I'm not sure of your point. Are you suggesting that since bad things happen that the airline should escape accountability?


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

snoozy said:


> Right. Now even if the co-pilot is as Aryan as Angela herself, you want to make out that because he was 28, he was a "likely" Muslim convert and of course all Muslim converts are terrorists. Sheesh. Because only a Muslim would commit suicide, right?
> 
> What a pathetic and fearful line of thinking.


It really is, but its what we've come to. Facts are that 70%+ of ALL bloody terrorism in the WORLD today involves Islamists.
And, this guy was a recent convert.
Go figure.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

7thswan said:


> OK , simple, 70% of terrorist acts all over the world right now are done by muslims.Your "Seig Heil" is done by big goverment lovers-Stalin,Hitler, muslim ect ect. I know you are implying the right are NAZI's , which in a 2 party world-communist and socialist-yes Hitler was on the right of Stalin-Stalin-communist,Hitler,Socialist/Fashist. Has nothing to do with Americas politial system. We do not have the european system. I know it is very confuseing with what you have been "taught" so the best way to figure it out is -GOVERMENT CONTROL". People that do not want the government to force them buy insurance-are not leftys. People that accept the government control of such things are on the left. Socialist, communist all diffrent degrees of control. So is sharia law-muslim-CONTROL. Our gov. now has control of the internet-so yes, they will take FB posts and go erase what they want there and on the wayback machine. YOU nolonger have the Freedom to get the facts. Google, facebook,snopes,wiki ect,ect,ect are well known for bowing to the government. I'm sure you now tell me it's for my own good.I was so dissed for writeing down and screenshoting all the info I have. Dumb, stupid me, huh?


Post of the week award.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

(( She clears her throat, as she adjusts her tinfoil tiara))

Long long ago, in a post long far and buried I said the way that this 'government' (our or world gov otherwise) will control it's subjects is to LABEL them.

AS SOON as you go to the doc and he says your symptoms require 'anti-depressent / anxiety, etc.' meds?
AND YOU FILL THAT SCRIPT........ YOU are labeled.

NOW with Obamacare, you just set a filter for everyone who is "mentally deficient".
THOSE names are FIRST when you begin to 'limit' freedoms.....
2nd Amendment, Job opportunities, Places you can live, etc: 
And stupid Americans will buy it hook line and sinker because it will be framed up in a way that makes them feel "safe" and "protected from crazy people".

"Mental Illness" is the new buzz word for government control.
Mark my words.

((Carefully removes tiara and steps off of large soap box))


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> It really is, but its what we've come to. Facts are that 70%+ of ALL bloody terrorism in the WORLD today involves Islamists.
> And, this guy was a recent convert.
> Go figure.


I can't find any solid evidence that the claim of his conversion to Islam is true. Everything out there that mentions it seems to link back to either speculation by a single anti Muslim German blogger or the obviously fake FB page Pamela Geller posted.


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Tricky Grama said:


> It really is, but its what we've come to. Facts are that 70%+ of ALL bloody terrorism in the WORLD today involves Islamists.
> And, this guy was a recent convert.
> Go figure.


 No evidence he was a Muslim or a 'recent convert'. Nice try by the liars and bloviators in the rightwing blogosphere. And so many on here run with that info, not even checking it out before trying to spread it even farther. What a shame.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

I see the left haters are out. NOT ONE of us here professed any hate towards muslims, tho, merely stated facts. 

http://speisa.com/modules/articles/...ermanwings-airbus-was-a-convert-to-islam.html

http://www.tpnn.com/2015/03/27/breaking-germanwings-co-pilot-was-muslim-convert/

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/miles/150401


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> I see the left haters are out. NOT ONE of us here professed any hate towards muslims, tho, merely stated facts.
> 
> http://speisa.com/modules/articles/...ermanwings-airbus-was-a-convert-to-islam.html
> 
> ...


TG, All those links either go back to Michael Mannheimer, an anti Muslim blogger, or the fake FB page which was created after the crash. They are not facts.

There is NO actual evidence he was a Muslim convert.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Tiempo said:


> TG, All those links either go back to Michael Mannheimer, an anti Muslim blogger, or the fake FB page which was created after the crash. They are not facts.
> 
> There is NO actual evidence he was a Muslim convert.


Do you have actual evidence that he was NOT a convert?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> Do you have actual evidence that he was NOT a convert?


Fringe-right members have enjoyed the privilege of persecuting Muslims in this forum for a very long time. I suspect that's changing as we speak. This is not the same board that it was a few weeks ago.

The co-pilot was mentally ill.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

JeffreyD said:


> Do you have actual evidence that he was NOT a convert?


And what evidence do we have that you're not a Muslim convert? Or a pedophile? Or a secret cross dresser? Or a spousal abuser? If you wish to accuse someone of something it is up to you to offer evidence to back up that accusation. Proving a negative is extremely difficult. But maybe you can offer something concrete to prove you are none of the above.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> And what evidence do we have that you're not a Muslim convert? Or a pedophile? Or a secret cross dresser? Or a spousal abuser? If you wish to accuse someone of something it is up to you to offer evidence to back up that accusation. Proving a negative is extremely difficult. But maybe you can offer something concrete to prove you are none of the above.


Completely irrelevant! Typical liberal behavior, don't answer the question, hate the messenger. I would ask the same questions of you? How nice of you to respond in such a tolerant compassionate way!! Can you prove that your not a religious hater? I didn't think so! Morality cannot be legislated no matter how badly you want it to be so.

Where did I accuse anyone of anything? Please point that out for all to see!


----------



## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

JeffreyD said:


> Completely irrelevant! Typical liberal behavior, don't answer the question, hate the messenger. I would ask the same questions of you? How nice of you to respond in such a tolerant compassionate way!! Can you prove that your not a religious hater? I didn't think so! Morality cannot be legislated no matter how badly you want it to be so.
> 
> Where did I accuse anyone of anything? Please point that out for all to see!


Typical liberal? Hate the messenger? Mmoetc didn't accuse you of anything. He just asked you to prove a negative, and gave some really good examples, in my opinion. Wit and a sense of humor isn't hating anything. 

Please, prove that the co-pilot was a recent Muslim convert.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Fringe-right members have enjoyed the privilege of persecuting Muslims in this forum for a very long time. I suspect that's changing as we speak. This is not the same board that it was a few weeks ago.
> 
> The co-pilot was mentally ill.


And the fringe left gets a free pass on bashing Christians! Your right about this isn't the same board as it used to be...it's taken a huge turn for the worse. Muslims persecute themselves by comiting horrible acts against other humans and the loony lefties are good with that as longs a a Christian gets burned too! Pathetic attempt at demonize get those who do not agree with liberal.mantra!

Of course the copilot was mentally ill. Who ever said he wasn't? Wouldn't you say that Muslim terrorists are also?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Doggonedog said:


> Typical liberal? Hate the messenger? Mmoetc didn't accuse you of anything. He just asked you to prove a negative, and gave some really good examples, in my opinion. Wit and a sense of humor isn't hating anything.
> 
> Please, prove that the co-pilot was a recent Muslim convert.


I never said he was a convert, some here just read what they want too! Please point out exactly where I said he was. And yes, I was being asked to.prove my innocence, if you cannot see that, well, just says you don't care about being truthful. Your opinion is just that and has no basis in reality.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

JeffreyD said:


> I never said he was a convert, some here just read what they want too! Please point out exactly where I said he was. And yes, I was being asked to.prove my innocence, if you cannot see that, well, just says you don't care about being truthful. Your opinion is just that and has no basis in reality.


So this was just your dramatic response to another poster's assertion that that there was no actual proof that the co-pilot was a recent Muslim convert? 



JeffreyD said:


> Do you have actual evidence that he was NOT a convert?


It looks to me that you still think the man was Muslim rather than mentally ill like most of the rest of the world believes. But that's just my opinion, and has no basis in your reality. 

You asked someone to prove a negative. That is a nearly impossible thing to do. When mmoetc pointed out that it's nearly impossible to prove a negative you became, well, rather ballistic...


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Doggonedog said:


> So this was just your dramatic response to another poster's assertion that that there was no actual proof that the co-pilot was a recent Muslim convert?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was a response to the "dramatic" response of another poster. No drama at all. All.the drama is from you and mmoetc. It doesn't matter what it "looks like" to you, it was a question. It was meant to show that there was no proving one way or another. It appears that went completely over your head, and you would rather argue than understand. Typical liberal.

Again, I ask you to prove where I said he was a convert. If you can't (and you can't) your arguing just for the sake of arguing which in and of itself, is pathetic. 

So please, point to where I said he was a convert? Ballistic? You need to do some serious thinking about who's ballistic here! ound: 

I haven't called anyone names or.made unfounded accusations of them, you have. And so has mmoetc.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

One of the foundations of our legal system, put in place by those whacky liberal founders, is that no one has to prove their innocence. It is incumbent upon the accuser that they must prove, through evidence, guilt. It's a good standard to hold in one's personal life and dealings with others, also.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

mmoetc said:


> One of the foundations of our legal system, put in place by those whacky liberal founders, is that no one has to prove their innocence. It is incumbent upon the accuser that they must prove, through evidence, guilt. It's a good standard to hold in one's personal life and deslings with others, also.


You'd think that all Americans would *know* this, huh?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

JeffreyD said:


> It was a response to the "dramatic" response of another poster. No drama at all. All.the drama is from you and mmoetc. It doesn't matter what it "looks like" to you, it was a question. It was meant to show that there was no proving one way or another. It appears that went completely over your head, and you would rather argue than understand. Typical liberal.
> 
> Again, I ask you to prove where I said he was a convert. If you can't (and you can't) your arguing just for the sake of arguing which in and of itself, is pathetic.
> 
> ...


I simply asked you for the same level of proof of your personal life that you wished others to provide about someone they have no personal knowledge of. It would seem that task would be quite easy for you. Yet rather than responding to the question you resorted to name calling and labeling. What are you trying to hide?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> One of the foundations of our legal system, put in place by those whacky liberal founders, is that no one has to prove their innocence. It is incumbent upon the accuser that they must prove, through evidence, guilt. It's a good standard to hold in one's personal life and deslings with others, also.


I never accused anyone of anything, did i? I asked a simple question. Some read something else into it. What they wanted to see for arguments sake.

In today's world, your guilty until you can prove your innocence. (asset forfeiture) Zimmerman, Ferguson, etc.. Are excellent recent events that prove your statement wrong. Those wacky founders were anything but liberal.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Doggonedog said:


> You'd think that all Americans would *know* this, huh?


There's knowing and there's doing.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> I simply asked you for the same level of proof of your personal life that you wished others to provide about someone they have no personal knowledge of. It would seem that task would be quite easy for you. Yet rather than responding to the question you resorted to name calling and labeling. What are you trying to hide?


You failed to answer the same questions, and just want to argue. Name calling and unfounded accusations are all you've got and you've proved it here.

Who was the one that first asked about being a pedophile,etc...?


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

mmoetc said:


> There's knowing and there's doing.


Absolutely. Just like you'd think they would know that many of founding fathers were liberal deists.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Insults are unbecoming and yet, here they are!!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Doggonedog said:


> Absolutely. Just like you'd think they would know that many of founding fathers were liberal deists.


Red herring!


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

JeffreyD said:


> You failed to answer the same questions, and just want to argue. Name calling and unfounded accusations are all you've got and you've proved it here.
> 
> Who was the one that first asked about being a pedophile,etc...?


What name have I called you? I didn't accuse you of being anything. I simply asked you to provide evidence you weren't something. Just as you didn't accuse the pilot but requested others prove something about him.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Jeffrey, nobody is accusing you of anything, just illustrating how impossible it is to prove a negative and that the burden of proof is on the accuser.

They are saying they don't believe you are any of those things as there is no evidence to suggest you are, just as there's no evidence to suggest this man was a Muslim convert.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

All that is known for sure is that apparently the pilot had some mental issues, the German pilots are not regularly psych evaluated as U.S. pilots and unlike the regulations here , two people in the cockpit at all times is not currently required of German airlines from what I have read.

I suspect after this air tragedy that German flight regulations will likely be changed.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Tiempo said:


> Jeffrey, nobody is accusing you of anything, just illustrating how impossible it is to prove a negative and that the burden of proof is on the accuser.
> 
> They are saying they don't believe you are any of those things as there is no evidence to suggest you are, just as there's no evidence to suggest this man was a Muslim convert.


I understand this, but that's not the point. All this could have been stopped by this simple answer to post #73........no. That would have been that, but, another poster posted an unsolicited response(post #75) that got the ball rolling, so i thought it would be enlightening to see what lengths they would go to to prove themselves right, when in reality there was nothing to prove because they are right. We got to see how tolerant and understanding some folks are. But, like i said, the true answer is simply ...no.

I see that you have become a mod, so i'll refrain from participating further given our history of disagreement.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

I don't plan to be that kind of mod, I will always strive to be fair.. and keep in mind I'm a mod in equine not GC 

You and I, though we have disagreed, we have respect for each other I think.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

JeffreyD said:


> I understand this, but that's not the point. All this could have been stopped by this simple answer to post #73........no. That would have been that, but, another poster posted an unsolicited response(post #75) that got the ball rolling, so i thought it would be enlightening to see what lengths they would go to to prove themselves right, when in reality there was nothing to prove because they are right. We got to see how tolerant and understanding some folks are. But, like i said, the true answer is simply ...no.
> 
> I see that you have become a mod, so i'll refrain from participating further given our history of disagreement.


I didn't realize posts had to be solicited. You asked a question of others that has no answer. No one can ever offer proof that someone hasn't done something short of having full video and audio documentation of every moment of their life. Even then a persons private thoughts and feelings cannot be discerned completely. I asked the same sort of questions of you only to illustrate this point and you didn't even attempt to answer them. I will assume this is because you too find them unanswerable, not that you engage in any of the behaviors in question. Asking such questions is only argumentative and does nothing to further a discussion.

As to the pilot. Crazy does what crazy does and unless one shares that particular brand of craziness or those delusions one can't hope to understand them. They make perfect sense in the reality of the crazy but no sense in the reality of the sane. If craziness like this is unexplainable to you you should probably be thankful.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Tiempo said:


> TG, All those links either go back to Michael Mannheimer, an anti Muslim blogger, or the fake FB page which was created after the crash. They are not facts.
> 
> There is NO actual evidence he was a Muslim convert.


We have German news on it. I can see why MSNBC didn't report. But German news did.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Fringe-right members have enjoyed the privilege of persecuting Muslims in this forum for a very long time. I suspect that's changing as we speak. This is not the same board that it was a few weeks ago.
> 
> The co-pilot was mentally ill.


Tell me how its persecution to state facts, to copy links? Persucution would be to make stuff up, to call them 'Sky Daddy worshippers' like some here have called Christians.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Doggonedog said:


> You'd think that all Americans would *know* this, huh?


You'd think that all would *know* that we're NOT speaking of OUR system at all. We're speaking of the German news & what they have reported.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Tricky Grama said:


> You'd think that all would *know* that we're NOT speaking of OUR system at all. We're speaking of the German news & what they have reported.


What we're talking about is speculation by a right wing,anti Islamic blogger on a website that caters to such without a shred of evidence to back it up. Nothing from the main stream media or German officials to point to Islamic leanings by the co-pilot. But that won't stop true believers.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

Tricky Grama said:


> You'd think that all would *know* that we're NOT speaking of OUR system at all. We're speaking of the German news & what they have reported.


Germany also believes, as does most of the world, in the presumption of innocence.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> We have German news on it. I can see why MSNBC didn't report. But German news did.


It was on PI-News which despite its name is not a news site, it's an anti Muslim blog.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Doggonedog said:


> Exactly. Perhaps gullible is a better word...


Hardly. Gullible are the ones that will trust a government that bows down to islams. Governments lie for islam/muslims for many reasons. To not scare people that FLY is just one reason.
I don't need to trust the gov. for a cell phone,food stamps....


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

7thswan said:


> Hardly. Gullible are the ones that will trust a government that bows down to islams. Governments lie for islam/muslims for many reasons. To not scare people that FLY is just one reason.


But how does Islam relate to this incident?


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Tricky Grama said:


> I see the left haters are out. NOT ONE of us here professed any hate towards muslims, tho, merely stated facts.
> 
> http://speisa.com/modules/articles/...ermanwings-airbus-was-a-convert-to-islam.html
> 
> ...


OK, soooo...German PI-news is not news. (we learn so much from our lib friends!)
And Islamic sites PRAISING this pilot are not relevant. OK.
Move along folks, nothing to see here...


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

Tricky Grama said:


> OK, soooo...German PI-news is not news. (we learn so much from our lib friends!)
> And Islamic sites PRAISING this pilot are not relevant. OK.
> Move along folks, nothing to see here...


Do you understand that the websites that are PRAISING the pilot could be doing so to use his mental illness to their advantage? There has been no concrete link (factual based credible information) linking the co-pilot to Islam. None. There has been concrete credible information that indicates this man was mentally ill. 

You do realize that blogs of any type are not credible information, correct? They are opinion of the blogger. Now, if the blogger cited his or her information to creditable information that should be looked into.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Nevada said:


> But how does Islam relate to this incident?


It's the first thing many thought of. That he did this because of islam and that he converted while he was "away" . It's an honest thought with what is going on in the world right now. It dosen't help when TPTB try to hide anything. No matter how they try to spin things, people still have fears.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

7thswan said:


> It's the first thing many thought of. That he did this because of islam and that he converted while he was "away" . It's an honest thought with what is going on in the world right now. It dosen't help when TPTB try to hide anything. No matter how they try to spin things, people still have fears.



Who's trying to hide something? The German government?

People certainly have fears but spinning every incident to be an act of terrorism fuels those fears unnaturally and also gives the bad guys more print space than they deserve.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

7thswan said:


> It's the first thing many thought of. That he did this because of islam and that he converted while he was "away" . It's an honest thought with what is going on in the world right now. It dosen't help when TPTB try to hide anything. No matter how they try to spin things, people still have fears.


For some, it seems, it was the only thing thought of. And even after no evidence that those thoughts were valid and other reasons, with evidence , is forthcoming they are still the focus of thinking. It might say much about those doing the thinking.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

wr said:


> Who's trying to hide something? The German government?


and the pilots Union. It's no supprise, it is ongoing here. Look at all the info we know about out Ft Hood shooter, the Deserter ect ect. Goverments are too afraid to acknowlage terrorism , they might have to DO something about it.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> For some, it seems, it was the only thing thought of. And even after no evidence that those thoughts were valid and other reasons, with evidence , is forthcoming they are still the focus of thinking. It might say much about those doing the thinking.


You tell me, mmoetc, which comes first, the muslim or the insanity?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

7thswan said:


> You tell me, mmoetc, which comes first, the muslim or the insanity?


You seem to believe that they must go hand in hand. I don't. There is no evidence of Muslim involvement in this issue yet some continue to fan the flames. Blind hatred is its own form of insanity.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> You seem to believe that they must go hand in hand. I don't. There is no evidence of Muslim involvement in this issue yet some continue to fan the flames. Blind hatred is its own form of insanity.


Read the koran, it is their hate you need to realize. I don't hate them, I just think it's our job to keep the American Citizens safe. Our government dosen't want to do this. Other governemts should want to keep their people safe , as Israel does.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

7thswan said:


> Read the koran, it is their hate you need to realize. I don't hate them, I just think it's our job to keep the American Citizens safe. Our government dosen't want to do this. Other governemts should want to keep their people safe , as Israel does.


Crying Islam at every turn and painting with broad brushes doesn't make us safer. It may in fact make us less safe. Get to know a few Muslims and you might just realize they are just people.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> Crying Islam at every turn and painting with broad brushes doesn't make us safer. It may in fact make us less safe. Get to know a few Muslims and you might just realize they are just people.


We have plenty of muslims here and our government is flooding this Country with more. It's the "religion" that is sick. And no we are no safer because we have to be PC. Then we have people on the left that think being aware involves hate. Same as I don't hate smokers, but they don't come here and smoke in my house. Smokers have too much respect for others ways.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Doggonedog said:


> Do you understand that the websites that are PRAISING the pilot could be doing so to use his mental illness to their advantage? There has been no concrete link (factual based credible information) linking the co-pilot to Islam. None. There has been concrete credible information that indicates this man was mentally ill.
> 
> You do realize that blogs of any type are not credible information, correct? They are opinion of the blogger. Now, if the blogger cited his or her information to creditable information that should be looked into.


Gosh, many here, libs mostly, cite blogs as fact nearly every day. We should tell 'em...


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

7thswan said:


> You tell me, mmoetc, which comes first, the muslim or the insanity?


Post of the millinneum award.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

mmoetc said:


> Crying Islam at every turn and painting with broad brushes doesn't make us safer. It may in fact make us less safe. Get to know a few Muslims and you might just realize they are just people.


Post of 10 millennia award!


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Tricky Grama said:


> Gosh, many here, libs mostly, cite blogs as fact nearly every day. We should tell 'em...


Please do.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

Tricky Grama said:


> Gosh, many here, libs mostly, cite blogs as fact nearly every day. We should tell 'em...


Sure, if they're using a blog, fake news site, or any opinion piece as fact they should be told. It's depressing that anyone has to be told that a blog, fake news site, or opinion piece is not fact. 

I've noticed it more with the "hate Muslims, kill 'em all, and let god sort it out" crowd though.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Doggonedog said:


> Sure, if they're using a blog, fake news site, or any opinion piece as fact they should be told. It's depressing that anyone has to be told that a blog, fake news site, or opinion piece is not fact.
> 
> I've noticed it more with the "hate Muslims, kill 'em all, and let god sort it out" crowd though.


Lazy people don't read a blog to see the links contained. Someone agrees with a blog post and there is a link showing where the writer got his info. We know most don't even read.People also post info which they do not agree with, but it is info. none the less.Seems many get their pantys in a bunch about seeing info that dosen't tow the lib. line.:shrug: Here is a place where a "person" compiled info. about the muslim/islam "religion". Ya, one has to open contained links to read that info. 
http://www.kerchner.com/islam/books.htm


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

7thswan said:


> Lazy people don't read a blog to see the links contained. Someone agrees with a blog post and there is a link showing where the writer got his info. We know most don't even read.People also post info which they do not agree with, but it is info. none the less.Seems many get their pantys in a bunch about seeing info that dosen't tow the lib. line.:shrug: Here is a place where a "person" compiled info. about the muslim/islam "religion". Ya, one has to open contained links to read that info.
> http://www.kerchner.com/islam/books.htm


And where's the link to the facts about a link between the pilot and Islam? The proof that he was a recent convert as some have claimed? Or the admittance that there is no proof and the claims are false?


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

7thswan said:


> Lazy people don't read a blog to see the links contained. Someone agrees with a blog post and there is a link showing where the writer got his info. We know most don't even read.People also post info which they do not agree with, but it is info. none the less.Seems many get their pantys in a bunch about seeing info that dosen't tow the lib. line.:shrug: Here is a place where a "person" compiled info. about the muslim/islam "religion". Ya, one has to open contained links to read that info.
> http://www.kerchner.com/islam/books.htm


No, my panties bunch when people expound opinion as fact. Especially when "facts" are made up by extreme bloggers who pander to the ignorant, and people are so gullible as to fall for anything and everything as long as it falls into the perimeters of their agenda. 

Islam is no more evil than Christianity. There are extremists in both groups but the religions as a whole should not be judged based on a few.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> And where's the link to the facts about a link between the pilot and Islam? The proof that he was a recent convert as some have claimed? Or the admittance that there is no proof and the claims are false?


No, just what was going on at the time. I don't even know if anyone is talking about it anymore.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Doggonedog said:


> No, my panties bunch when people expound opinion as fact. Especially when "facts" are made up by extreme bloggers who pander to the ignorant, and people are so gullible as to fall for anything and everything as long as it falls into the perimeters of their agenda.
> 
> Islam is no more evil than Christianity. There are extremists in both groups but the religions as a whole should not be judged based on a few.


And you get your "facts" from where? Snopes? Google? Wiki? But you belive in Gorebull Warning? Obama's lies? and on and on...
I don't hear of any Christians beheading people, Post one from say the last month. I'll read it.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

7thswan said:


> And you get your "facts" from where? Snopes? Google? Wiki?


 FACT: You got your info from a blog with no basis in reality. The 'scrubbed FB page' was from SOMEONE ELSE, not the co-pilot. I don't need 'snopes' or wiki to understand that someone posting a 'Friends of' page is very likely NOT the person in question, and has NO link to them.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

7thswan said:


> And you get your "facts" from where? Snopes? Google? Wiki? But you belive in Gorebull Warning? Obama's lies? and on and on...
> I don't hear of any Christians beheading people, Post one from say the last month. I'll read it.


Snopes is a "debunking" site, I wouldn't use it to garner information but I may to check the veracity of statements made by "extreme bloggers."

Wiki itself can be changed by anyone so it's not something that I would base a final opinion, but most of the articles do have cites that can be accessed and that information can be a gold mine. 

Google is a search engine. A search engine helps you find information on the internet, it's a great tool when gathering information.

Gorebull warning? 

I gather as much information about a subject as I can, and that may include a blog or two, weigh all of it, and base my opinion on that. I do not use only blogs, fake news site, etc. I want ALL the information I can find, good and bad, if I agree with it or not, to base my opinion. But then again, I don't have an agenda to support.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

7thswan said:


> And you get your "facts" from where? Snopes? Google? Wiki? But you belive in Gorebull Warning? Obama's lies? and on and on...
> I don't hear of any Christians beheading people, Post one from say the last month. I'll read it.


Regarding the air crash, the subject of this thread, I got much of my information from German language news sites and from some relatives living there. I even read some local bloggers but took their opinions for what they were.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> For some, it seems, it was the only thing thought of. And even after no evidence that those thoughts were valid and other reasons, with evidence , is forthcoming they are still the focus of thinking. It might say much about those doing the thinking.


Where is the evidence of this "...only thought..."? I heard nothing for days & days...only speculation about the plane being OLD, on its last flight...seems some were trying to pin it on the airline. 
Then came the black box findings-tod a day or so then to see it was suicide. Or are the libs here not believing that too?
I heard nothing of the muslim connection til it was found on Fb. 
Then, it seems, there are some who WILL NOT allow anything muslim to be said. Who scrubbed the FB pages? Why? Is this a cover up? Why say there was NO evidence when the evidence was found there...? Why do some lie in wait to defend when there is no evidence of the contrary? Where's the evidence that he went to the local Lutheran church every Sun? I'm sorry, but some are so heckbent on defending a theocratic political movement that it becomes scary.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Doggonedog said:


> Sure, if they're using a blog, fake news site, or any opinion piece as fact they should be told. It's depressing that anyone has to be told that a blog, fake news site, or opinion piece is not fact.
> 
> I've noticed it more with the "hate Muslims, kill 'em all, and let god sort it out" crowd though.


We HAVE told 'em...they continue to post blogs as fact as well as clips from movies, occasionally. Perhaps some of the non-conserves here should tell 'em, since they're not likely to listen to conservatives on this matter.

No one here has said "...kill 'em all ..." Here's where cred is lost in this thread. Someone posts about something in the 'news' and others attack & bring up something heard elsewhere...


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Tricky Grama said:


> Where is the evidence of this "...only thought..."? I heard nothing for days & days...only speculation about the plane being OLD, on its last flight...seems some were trying to pin it on the airline.
> Then came the black box findings-tod a day or so then to see it was suicide. Or are the libs here not believing that too?
> I heard nothing of the muslim connection til it was found on Fb.
> Then, it seems, there are some who WILL NOT allow anything muslim to be said. Who scrubbed the FB pages? Why? Is this a cover up? Why say there was NO evidence when the evidence was found there...? Why do some lie in wait to defend when there is no evidence of the contrary? Where's the evidence that he went to the local Lutheran church every Sun? I'm sorry, but some are so heckbent on defending a theocratic political movement that it becomes scary.


Apparently you didn't read the OP, which mentioned suspected "Muzzle" involvement. No ones accusing the pilot of being Lutheran therefor there is no need to prove it one way or another. Accusations of Islamic conversion and involvement have been made. You still seem to believe them. Convince the rest of us sceptics by showing us your evidence.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Doggonedog said:


> No, my panties bunch when people expound opinion as fact. Especially when "facts" are made up by extreme bloggers who pander to the ignorant, and people are so gullible as to fall for anything and everything as long as it falls into the perimeters of their agenda.
> 
> Islam is no more evil than Christianity. There are extremists in both groups but the religions as a whole should not be judged based on a few.


See, there ya go. Someone, not saying anyone HERE, but some have absolutely no idea that Islam is the cause of 70% of the bloodshed/murders/beheadings/CONFLICT in the world TODAY!! NOT CHRISTIANS! We are living in the 21st century!! 
I guess someone shoulda posted the NEWS about the 150 Christians murdered last week in Kenya. But since the Idiotincharge uttered NOT A WORD about it, prolly was just a blogger musing. This is the mentality of koolade drinkers only. 
It was MUSLIMS who did it.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

My opinion after reading the entire thread is: post #9 started the ball rolling, post #12 kicked it, but post #27 picked it up and slam dunked that bad boy. It was all downhill after that.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

WHAT? No props for post 68??
I'm so offended.:awh:


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

Tricky Grama said:


> See, there ya go. Someone, not saying anyone HERE, but some have absolutely no idea that Islam is the cause of 70% of the bloodshed/murders/beheadings/CONFLICT in the world TODAY!! NOT CHRISTIANS! We are living in the 21st century!!
> I guess someone shoulda posted the NEWS about the 150 Christians murdered last week in Kenya. But since the Idiotincharge uttered NOT A WORD about it, prolly was just a blogger musing. This is the mentality of koolade drinkers only.
> It was MUSLIMS who did it.


The point is moot. The killings are done by Muslim extremists, do you understand that? The majority of Muslims are peaceful people. It's like saying that all Texans are ignorant buffoons based on the actions of a very, very few. 

Christianity does not have clean hands. The Christian Crusades slaughtered Muslims. 

Can you provide a link (not to an extreme blog, fake news site etc.) for your statement, "that Islam is the cause of 70% of the bloodshed/murders/beheadings/CONFLICT in the world TODAY!!" Thank you.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> WHAT? No props for post 68??
> I'm so offended.:awh:


Sorry, I didn't review it. After post #12 it was just an ugly blur.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Doggonedog said:


> Sorry, I didn't review it. After post #12 it was just an ugly blur.


You should take a peek at it....*I* thought it was brilliant!!


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> You should take a peek at it....*I* thought it was brilliant!!


I like that you brought forward the plight of the mentally ill, and that you did not state that Muslims are the basis of all evil in the known world.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

As a society, I think we should really dig deeper into why, all of the sudden (ok the last 15 years) have we had a "SURGE" of mental illness (bi-polar/skitzophrenea) etc. 
Why have we had a SURGE of Autism, Aspengers, etc.

What is in our food and water that has increased these diagnosis 100 fold?

AND AND AND AND

Why can't there just be 'evil' in the world? 
Why can't there just be 'bad people' in this world?

Why so many labels?


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> As a society, I think we should really dig deeper into why, all of the sudden (ok the last 15 years) have we had a "SURGE" of mental illness (bi-polar/skitzophrenea) etc.
> Why have we had a SURGE of Autism, Aspengers, etc.
> 
> What is in our food and water that has increased these diagnosis 100 fold?
> ...


Hang on. Are we talking just about mental illness, and medical conditions? Who are "bad people" and what is "evil." 

I want to make sure what exactly you are saying. That way everyone is crystal clear.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> As a society, I think we should really dig deeper into why, all of the sudden (ok the last 15 years) have we had a "SURGE" of mental illness (bi-polar/skitzophrenea) etc.


Mental Illness. 



> Why have we had a SURGE of Autism, Aspengers, etc.


Genetic defect/malfunction. 



> What is in our food and water that has increased these diagnosis 100 fold?


What's causing the above 2 complete different conditions?



> AND AND AND AND
> 
> Why can't there just be 'evil' in the world?
> Why can't there just be 'bad people' in this world?
> ...


AND topic #3 just plain evil.

Topic 1 Mental Illness
Topic 2 Genetic defect / malfunction
Topic 3 Evil.

3 topics, one post.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

I'm not discussing topic 3, it's so vague that there is no way to approach it.

However, the increase of diagnosis, at least in my opinion, of mental illness and autism is due to better diagnostics, and better understanding of the diseases/disorders. 

The criteria for autism was fairly recently overhauled which caused a very large spike of people being included on the spectrum. Better understanding and better diagnostics.

In large part the "labels" are to get the people that it need it help.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

True.

I am a 'get to the roots' kinda gal.
I like to know the ROOT cause of an issue so that the issue can be "dug up and removed".

I think the ROOT of the surge in mental / genetic defects is found in the food and water.
NOT because of better diagnosis.
YES I do think medical / science is SO much better/advanced than 40 years ago......
But I also believe something is poisoning us. Creating more cases.

I also think the govt. will use it against us.
Once again, back to 'labels'.

Evil is real.
John Wayne Gacy
Jefferey Dauhmer
The cop that shot the unarmed man that was on TV last night
And I could go on.

If humans believe in "good" and they believe in Science......
Then they have to factor in "evil".
Because for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Doggonedog said:


> The point is moot. The killings are done by Muslim extremists, do you understand that? The majority of Muslims are peaceful people. It's like saying that all Texans are ignorant buffoons based on the actions of a very, very few.
> 
> Christianity does not have clean hands. The Christian Crusades slaughtered Muslims.
> 
> Can you provide a link (not to an extreme blog, fake news site etc.) for your statement, "that Islam is the cause of 70% of the bloodshed/murders/beheadings/CONFLICT in the world TODAY!!" Thank you.


There ya go again. Christians went to war w/muslims who SLAUGHTERED them & stole their land-maybe you could say started the 'war' 1st.

You want to cite another incident? Maybe ANYTHING that catches up Christians to where muslims are now? 
If only 1% of the 1.5 billion muslims are 'radical' then there's millions who are. And 80% agree w/what most radicals are doing. Most felt the terrorist acts of late were awful...but JUSTIFIED! B/c, ya know, muhammed was wronged. 

Can you say the same about Christians? In the last MILLENIUM? How many times do we need to post these facts & how many times will you falsely say Christians are just as bad?


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Doggonedog said:


> I like that you brought forward the plight of the mentally ill, and that you did not state that Muslims are the basis of all evil in the known world.


No, you are exaggerating. Its 70% of all bloodshed/terrorism.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> Apparently you didn't read the OP, which mentioned suspected "Muzzle" involvement. No ones accusing the pilot of being Lutheran therefor there is no need to prove it one way or another. Accusations of Islamic conversion and involvement have been made. You still seem to believe them. Convince the rest of us sceptics by showing us your evidence.


What are you saying? 'muzzle'? This refers to some kind of surpression of evidence. So you were thinking 'muslim' b/4 anyone else? So you were suspicious of muslims at post 1?
Huh.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Tricky Grama said:


> I heard nothing of the muslim connection til it was found on Fb.
> Then, it seems, there are some who WILL NOT allow anything muslim to be said. Who scrubbed the FB pages? Why? Is this a cover up? Why say there was NO evidence when the evidence was found there...?


 The only 'muslim connection on FB' was a 'fan of' page, put up by some unknown person, AFTER the fact, which was quickly removed by FB. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that had ZERO to do with the co-pilot, as he was already dead! But that didn't stop the braindead anti-Muslim bloggers from running with it. And of course, some of the more gullible members of our forum from repeating it as if were factual evidence of a 'muslim connection'.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

Tricky Grama said:


> What are you saying? 'muzzle'? This refers to some kind of surpression of evidence. So you were thinking 'muslim' b/4 anyone else? So you were suspicious of muslims at post 1?
> Huh.


I believe that that is a misspelling/auto correct of the slur "Muzzie" that was used in the first post of this thread. 

Do you really want to start mocking misspellings? Really?


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

Tricky Grama said:


> No, you are exaggerating. Its 70% of all bloodshed/terrorism.


Since you won't back your statement with a cite, I'll just assume that it's your opinion. 

Baiting isn't nice.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Doggonedog said:


> I believe that that is a misspelling/auto correct of the slur "Muzzie" that was used in the first post of this thread.
> 
> Do you really want to start mocking misspellings? Really?


So sorry, but you will have to show me where I mocked misspelling. Otherwise you are just badgering. In another post, apparently that you did not read, someone stated that the op started the muslilm paranoia.

I'm sure you don't want to believe the 70% thing. If you want info, google can be your friend.


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## Doggonedog (Dec 4, 2014)

Tricky Grama said:


> There ya go again. Christians went to war w/muslims who SLAUGHTERED them & stole their land-maybe you could say started the 'war' 1st.
> 
> You want to cite another incident? Maybe ANYTHING that catches up Christians to where muslims are now?
> If only 1% of the 1.5 billion muslims are 'radical' then there's millions who are. And 80% agree w/what most radicals are doing. Most felt the terrorist acts of late were awful...but JUSTIFIED! B/c, ya know, muhammed was wronged.
> ...


Interesting read. http://blog.adl.org/extremism/right-wing-terror-attacks-in-u-s-approach-1990s-levels

From the link: "Recent terrorist attacks, plots and conspiracies by right-wing extremists in the United States are approaching the level of attacks in the mid-1990s when the Oklahoma City bombing occurred, based on a chronol-ogy of such attacks com-piled by the Anti-Defamation League."


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

poppy said:


> It kind of reminds me of the Maylasian jet that crashed into the ocean with no distress calls. They're saying one of the pilots of this one can be heard on the black box. He was locked out of the cockpit for some reason and trying to break in the door when it crashed. I always suspect Muzzie involvement but there could be other things going on. It would take a pretty cold suicidal pilot to kill everyone else on the plane too.





Tricky Grama said:


> So sorry, but you will have to show me where I mocked misspelling. Otherwise you are just badgering. In another post, apparently that you did not read, someone stated that the op started the muslilm paranoia.
> 
> I'm sure you don't want to believe the 70% thing. If you want info, google can be your friend.


There's the first post. Interpret "Muzzie" for me and explain to me how drawing a parallel from the Malaysian crash to this one doesn't imply involvement of "Muzzies" in this incident. While your at it show me that evidence of a recent conversion to Islam by the copilot you have yet to back away from. Maybe you can google it.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> So sorry, but you will have to show me where I mocked misspelling. Otherwise you are just badgering. In another post, apparently that you did not read, someone stated that the op started the muslilm paranoia.
> 
> I'm sure you don't want to believe the 70% thing. If you want info, google can be your friend.


Nobody is forced to provide citations for claims, but you can't expect to be taken seriously if you don't.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> There ya go again. Christians went to war w/muslims who SLAUGHTERED them & stole their land-maybe you could say started the 'war' 1st.
> 
> You want to cite another incident? Maybe ANYTHING that catches up Christians to where muslims are now?
> If only 1% of the 1.5 billion muslims are 'radical' then there's millions who are. And 80% agree w/what most radicals are doing. Most felt the terrorist acts of late were awful...but JUSTIFIED! B/c, ya know, muhammed was wronged.
> ...


Do you really want to bring up Christian killings in the last thousand years? Google "Christian Atrocities" and then set aside a few days because you will have a lot of reading to do...


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Truckinguy said:


> Do you really want to bring up Christian killings in the last thousand years? Google "Christian Atrocities" and then set aside a few days because you will have a lot of reading to do...


BTDT. Whole thread on it a while back. Not going to fight it again .
Will NEVER come close to the Islam atrocities-gone on long b/4 & after any Christain wars, heresy attacks, etc.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/sunni-muslim-extremists-committed-70-terrorist-murders-2011

(CNSNews.com) - Sunni Muslim terrorists committed &#8220;about 70 percent&#8221; of the 12,533 terrorist murders in the world last year, according to a report by the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC).

The information comes from the 2011 NCTC Report on Terrorism, which is based on information available as of March 12, 2012.

&#8220;Sunni extremists accounted for the greatest number of terrorist attacks and fatalities for the third consecutive year,&#8221; the report says. &#8220;More than 5,700 incidents were attributed to Sunni extremists, accounting for nearly 56 percent of all attacks and about 70 percent of all fatalities.&#8221;


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

Tricky Grama said:


> There ya go again. Christians went to war w/muslims who SLAUGHTERED them & stole their land-maybe you could say started the 'war' 1st.
> 
> You want to cite another incident? Maybe ANYTHING that catches up Christians to where muslims are now?
> *If only 1% of the 1.5 billion muslims are 'radical' then there's millions who are.* And 80% agree w/what most radicals are doing. Most felt the terrorist acts of late were awful...but JUSTIFIED! B/c, ya know, muhammed was wronged.
> ...


There's about 5 million muslims in the U.S. So the 1% radicals would be 50,000. So on average, there should be 1,000 per state going around killing Christians. Where are they? Has anyone seen one? Anyone seen any killings from one?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

DJ in WA said:


> There's about 5 million muslims in the U.S. So the 1% radicals would be 50,000. So on average, there should be 1,000 per state going around killing Christians. Where are they? Has anyone seen one? Anyone seen any killings from one?


Read the news! There's a trial going on right now in Boston! Many others are waiting trial too! Where have you been? We won't even go into what's going on in Kenya(hundreds have been killed because they were Christians) or the middle east.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

DJ in WA said:


> There's about 5 million muslims in the U.S. So the 1% radicals would be 50,000. So on average, there should be 1,000 per state going around killing Christians. Where are they? Has anyone seen one? Anyone seen any killings from one?


Hopefully, the radicals in the US are less than that. The muslims who've migrated here seem to-for the MOST part-be for freedom, living in a Republic. But there's sure been enuf to worry about. Boston OK. Ft Hood. 

No one pretended there were 'averages' all over the world. Plus, the 70% states "Summis"! So, the other sects aren't even counted in this am't.

What you didn't understand is we're talking about terror attacks world-wide. While there's about 30 'cells' of Islamic training camps HERE, hopefully those are watched.


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