# Solar units .. need some "how to ..."



## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I posted this in country forum; and it was suggested I would get a better response in this forum; so here it is:
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I am such a concrete thinker it is difficult for me to make any sense out of what I'm finding on the net. Can anyone in here help me with some "step-by-step" instructions as to how to create the solar setup I need?

We are totally dependant on electricity; and I want to set something up that does not require the use of gasoline to take over should we lose our power. I do not want to run the entire house. I do want to run the following:

one air conditioner - It is a simple window air conditioner that cools off half of our trailer during heat waves. It is a Kenmore and cost $1,000; but I'm not sure what wats/units/whatever called it is.

one furnace - It is an "oil" furnace we use only during winter months to heat our 65' x 12' trailer.

2 deep chest freezers (one large; one medium size) - They are both Kenmore and are kept in the barn.

Would it be better to set up one solar unit for each? 
Would it be better to set up two solar units (one to run the air conditioner during hot months; then switch it over to run the furnace during winter months; and the 2nd to run the 2 chest freezers in the barn?

Whatever is needed, is there anyone who can give me a step-by-step instructions as to what to buy and how to set each up? (I'm sorry I don't have the money to pay professionals to do this. I do think I may be able to save up enough to purchase the items needed and then do it myself. David has worked with electricity often in prior years; just not solar.)

Can anyone help us understand what specific items we need and what type of structure those items will need?


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## Newlife (May 27, 2012)

Honestly, to give you a good answer, we'd have to know how much power these things use.

However, based on the info you provided, here are my back of the envelope recommendations.

1. Reduce your power consumption needs. For the freezers in the barn, I would be tempted to add some insulation to the outside of the unit to help reduce your energy requirements. Same goes for your home. I've heard of people building a strawbale shelter around their trailer/mobile as a way to reduce energy consumption. 
You may be able to scrounge for the styrofoam insulation for free and get the straw bales fairly cheap.

2. Consider a grid-tied battery back-up system rather than just a solar back up. This can give you some temporary protection/power in the event of a power outage without having to get a complete system right away. You can always add solar and wind at a later date.

That being said, here's what I would do (assuming I understand your situation properly). I would find some used forklift batteries and get an inverter/charger. I'd put one system in the barn and the other in/near the house. While the power is running, your batteries maintain a trickle charge and when/if the power goes out you could draw power for several days (depending on battery capacity and usage) until the power came back on.)

Alternatively, you could go with smaller battery capacity and add a generator to recharge the batteries if the power stays off for a while. It would require storing fuel.

Or, you could simply get a couple of generators to power your devices directly only when needed.

There are a lot of options, the biggest factor is going to be how much power you need, for how long, and how much you have to spend.

Maybe to better answer your question, you will need batteries (tend to be pricey), an inverter (to change the DC into AC), a charge controller (to regulate the power from the panels to the battery), fuses, heavy gauge wire and a couple of other odds and ends to get everything mounted.

One thing you could do is look at a complete "weekender" type package or "cabin kit" package. You can see a list of all the materials provided and that should give you an idea of what is needed.

Here's a link for some solar panels/products: Solar Panels- Solar Panel Rate Comparison- Solar Panel Price Survey

And for the complete kits, scroll down and look at the off-grid Solar Power Kits - Cheapest = $1.71/Watt!

Hope this helps get you started.


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## Newlife (May 27, 2012)

Oh, one more thing. There should be a placard or sticker or something on the back or the side of your appliances that tell you the volts and amps it draws.

Multiply those two numbers together to get the amp hours of electricity used (this is important in determining how much battery you'll need.)

The other thing to keep in mind is that when a motor starts up, it can draw 3 to 5 times the power listed, so your inverter will have to be sized to match this surge.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

. ."Do not want to power the entire house"

But what you are asking for is some mighty big loads for a solar system . . . .That equates to lots of $$$$$$

A good starting point would be to contact...Backwoods Solar Electric Systems . . . .
Their catalog has several different "kit packages" . . . small to large.
You will get an idea of $$$$$$ needed to do what you want . . . . .it ain't cheap.

Also backwoods has some books that would be recommended reading for what you want.

Hiring a pro is not as expensive as you might think . . . .
Especially if you want it done right . . . . . 

One of the last things you want to do is ask on the internet is how to hook "wire A to wire B"
You stand to get some very BAD advice..........


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## AVanarts (Jan 2, 2011)

Jim-mi said:


> . ."Do not want to power the entire house"
> 
> But what you are asking for is some mighty big loads for a solar system . . . .That equates to lots of $$$$$$
> 
> ...


I keep telling my friends that if being off grid was easy and cheap, everyone would be doing it.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

My first question is: HOW much are you willing to spend ?

Off the top of my head, you're looking at $10,000 or more to do what you want.....JUST for the equipment... ( probably more ) 

IF that is out of the question, then there is really very little need to go into "how to do it", right ?


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Well, first off, I would only want the optional set up for the trailer to run only one unit at a time, either the air conditioner or the furnace (one running during summer months; other during winter months). The purpose is to not only avoid the high cost of electricity but to also have a back up should we lose electricity.

Second, if I could afford to spend thousands of dollars to set this up, I might as well save that money to pay the electric bills during those high-cost seasons.

I'm simply looking for a way to cut living expenses and still survive the heat of the summer, the cold of the winter &/or extended power outages. Sounds like I'm between a rock and a hard place as to getting something set up. 

The Furnace is a "Nordyne" Model No AF-10 [The only "heating capacity" I can find is "input, BTUH (000')"]

The Air Conditioner is a "Kenmore" with "28k" ... not sure what that means; but it is a window one that only cools half a 65'x12' trailer.

Hope this additional information helps.


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## Newlife (May 27, 2012)

Well, I honestly don't know how much power those particular models use; so I couldn't help much in sizing your system.

It sounds like you are trying to save money on electrical expenses (solar isn't the way to go) while at the same time providing back-up power.

Your best bet may be to get a gasoline generator for backup power and use the money you had planned on solar for more insulation to help reduce your power needs. 
Adding passive heating and cooling may be the best use of cash in the long run.

Wish I could be of more help.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Start with getting a "kill-a-watt" meter and putting it on the AC and freezers for at least a week during the hottest part of summer. That should give you a drcient idea how much power you use. I think the solar unit for the AC would handle the Furnance. If it's 120VAC you might put the kill-a-watt meter on it to check.

Just to give you a warning, I'd expect the equipment needed for the Ac alone to run $10k to $15k and about $2k to $3k for each freezer.

As others have suggested a genny would be cheaper for a backup system.

WWW


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

motdaugrnds said:


> The purpose is to not only avoid the high cost of electricity but to also have a back up should we lose electricity.


Folks don't understand how cheap grid power is until they look into generating their own.....it's a HUGE bargain, believe me.




motdaugrnds said:


> Second, if I could afford to spend thousands of dollars to set this up, I might as well save that money to pay the electric bills during those high-cost seasons.
> 
> I'm simply looking for a way to cut living expenses and still survive the heat of the summer, the cold of the winter &/or extended power outages. Sounds like I'm between a rock and a hard place as to getting something set up.


Yep.....that's the reality of it.



motdaugrnds said:


> The Furnace is a "Nordyne" Model No AF-10 [The only "heating capacity" I can find is "input, BTUH (000')"]
> 
> The Air Conditioner is a "Kenmore" with "28k" ... not sure what that means; but it is a window one that only cools half a 65'x12' trailer.
> 
> Hope this additional information helps.


An oil furnace uses very little electrical power.....usually a small pump for the oil (if that), and a fan motor to distribute heat in the duct work......my guess would be less than 1000watts total.

The AC unit is your power hog. A 28,000 BTU unit ( about as big a window unit as is made ) will use about 13-15amps *@ 240v.*.......around 3,000-3,500 watts.

To set up a solar powered system, you have to set it up for the max, which would be that AC plus your freezers.....so you'd need something on the order of 5,000 watts of inverter(s), set up for 240v, and a huge battery bank, then enough solar panels to keep the batteries recharged. I've got a system that would handle that, except for my battery bank, which is "only" a 3,000lb, 1200amp/hr set.......I could probably run that AC overnight as long as the sun came out the next day, EVERY day, and fully recharged my batteries ( I have 6,000 watts of panels)......and I've got $30,000 in it. ound:

Forget "beating the high cost of power".......can't be done. No way will you EVER produce your own power for what the power company can supply it.

As for your second hope, a backup system, economically, you'd be better off to get a 6-8kw generator, and stock fuel up for it. Shopping around, or picking up a second hand unit, you could probably find one in the $2,000-3,000 range. Get a diesel unit if you can find it.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Setting up a system to run the AC---during the solar window 4-5 hours--- is easy enough.
But you have to generate--and store the fuel (battery bank) for 20 more hours of running that monster energy hog AC.
That means many more PV panels and a mighty pricy battery bank...........

This can easily be done by a pro installer.

But I know you will have a gargantuan gastric attack when you see the price tag......

For short term grid outages, pretty much top of the line gasoline gennys would be the Honda 3000i.
Longer term outages go diesel or better yet propane (or natural gas) gennys.

The grid (for now) is still a "reasonable" deal..........

Folks complaining about their electric bill should pause for a long while and study "their" usage of electric appliances.

there ain't no free lunches


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi,
If you aim is to save money on energy, I think you are headed down the wrong track. You will end up with much better paybacks by working on reducing consumption. I kept pretty close track of what we have saved via conservation and efficiency measures, compared to what we save with our PV array, and conservation wins hands down -- by about a factor of 10.

This is true even though our PV array is grid-tied (the cheapest way to generate power), and I did all the work myself. If you go with a battery based system, the difference between conservation approaches and PV will be larger yet.

On the using less electricity, this is the list of projects we used to cut our electricity use in half: The Half Project -- projects to reduce energy consumption and green house gas emissions by half
These same projects may not work for you, but you get the idea -- look at everything you have that uses electricity and see if there is some cost effective way to make it use less. Get the Kill-A-Watt, and use it to figure out the how much each device uses. Do better lights. Lots of easy, cheap stuff.

The freezers seem like a good opportunity -- replacing them with one larger freezer would likely save, and going to a newer Energy Star one might save a lot. The Kill-A-Watt will tell you how much the current ones are using, and you can compare that to the listings on the Energy Star site.

You might be able to reduce your AC run time a lot by reducing the heat gain of the house. Its a bit much to detail on a short post, but lots of ideas here that are mostly cheap or free: Passive Cooling Techniques
Stopping heat gain through windows, insulating, night ventilation, infiltration sealing, duct sealing are probably the big ones. Insulation helps summer and winter.

Once you get your utility bills as low as you reasonably can, then you can think about PV or solar hot water or solar heating -- all fun, but do the conservation and efficiency first.

Gary


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Yes, I'm seeing what you're all saying. Even though it was not my intent to completely get off the grid, just taking this one air-conditioning unit off thru the hot summer months appears to be so expensive that it really does not pay to do it.

I'm now contemplating generators (propane probably as we don't get natural gas out here and diesel gives out too many fumes) that run quietly and can do what I was wanting the solar panels to do. Thus, I would want one for the barn (freezers) and a heavy-duty one for the air conditioner. (You're correct about the furnace taking such little electricity. I'm looking at the possibility of a wood-burner "for a mobil home" as a back up here.)

Thank you all so much for helping. 

David has been reading all your answers and I've encouraged him to talk with you all about what he is considering as he has mentioned a combination of things I don't understand. Hopefully David will start a thread in this forum so you can all discuss this with him. He is so much more knowledgeable about "creating" alternatives than I.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

There is quite a few very good "fixed" (non portable) propane fueled generators available

"Fixed" on a small concrete pad outside. . . .with a weather cover.


On a big system I installed we put in a 15KW industrial Ford engine powered generator.
4 cylinder, liquid cooled, in its own building on the side of the main barn.
This is back up to the system . . . .AGS (auto generator start) fires up the genny depending on the battery level.

Something like that would power all your appliances all at once---without grunting.
That Ford engine should have a very long life.


What I just described is a world apart from the box store $199.95 junk............

Bottom line; Check some of these "fixed" generators They could do well for your needs.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Jim-mi said:


> There is quite a few very good "fixed" (non portable) propane fueled generators available
> 
> "Fixed" on a small concrete pad outside. . . .with a weather cover.
> 
> ...


Jim, what do you mean by "...the box store $199.95 junk..." ? How would I know I'm not getting one of those? Also, is there any way I can SEE one of those set-ups? I'm so visual that trying to make sense of your words is difficult for me. Yet, you sound right on target for our needs and I'ld like to look into it farther.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Just don't fall into the trap of buying the cheapest unit out there.
I see a lot of very low end "generators" for sale on Craigs list . . .
I suspect people have realized after they bought the cheap stuff, that it is junk and they want to up-grade .. . . . .

I have no pixs of the one I described above ..
Lots of pix (film not digital) of the big wind turbine and tower . . none of the propane genny...........
And besides I'm a puter dummy and wouldn't know how to post pix anyway........

I'm sure if you google around you can find lots of pix of units that are for sale......

Just remember that the 'Good' long lasting stuff is going to cost more.........


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Just looking at Craigs list . . under 'Tools' there is listed a Yanmar powered gen. 5000watts
Used very little -$3500

The link to look where it came from is Graingers.com . ... .new $4500

A unit like that may seem pricy but it will power a good sized AC and should have a long life...........

This is just one example of what is available............


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

One way of keeping the house cool is shade. It can be more permanent like shade trees or an extra roof or it can be an annual thing like vines.

My house is very well shaded and we just had record heat. It was 95 outside but my house never got above 83. I attribute that to the shade trees that kept the sun off the house.

I used vines on a previous house and that worked great. Even with the stove going full blast all day during canning season the house stayed 10 degrees cooler than outside temps. We used morning glory and scarlet climbing beans over the whole south side of the house.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Thank you Jim. You're advice is well taken as I learned years ago you get what you pay for. That is one reason I'm saving for a "good" way of doing what I need to.

I do appreciate your idea Fish of trees and vines; however, the deterance I have is a small herd of dairy goats that free-range and my 65x12 trailer house sits in the middle of their ranging. Also, the trailer sits on top of the tallest nole with a hardpan not far under it...took some real heavy-duty stakes that could be driven thru the ground to anchor this trailer. So, though we have 3 very large shady trees that take care of the late evening part of the sunshine (with 3 layers of chicken wire wrapped around their trunks), we have nothing shading the late morning and afternoon sunshine, the latter being the hottest.

It is actually looking like I need to find a set up David and I can understand (and can sit out in all kinds of weather) that will power only the window air-conditioner during the 3 months of a heated summer. I think propane would be the way to go as it can be stored more easily with better access to it during hard times. We will of course need the attachments kind people have mentioned in here and hopefully have a creative way of getting the generator to pull from more than one propane tank should the first one get emptied when we're not able to make the switch.

All this is so very new to me and, even with the wonderful information I'm getting in here, my head just won't wrap around the "how-to" as to what generator, what inverter, what size propane tank, what pipes/wiring, etc. to get in order to set up this thing for the air conditioner.

We've pretty much decided on a smaller generator for the freezers in the barn, a "wood" stove our insurance company will approve of as a back up for the furnace and a "Bison handpump" for the 79 ft well. (Clarifying all this in my head is what I'm having the most difficulty with. If I cannot form a picture out of the words I'm reading, I might as well be reading a foreign language. Sure wish I were an auditory person!)


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