# Do you believe in God?



## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

.....or a Great Spirit, Higher Power.....whatever term you use.

If so, how does it manifest in your daily living?
If not, why not?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I don't believe in god or a higher power. There is no effect on my life at all.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

With all my heart, soul, mind and strength!!!

He is my all and all, through and through, He is my guiding light, My Lord, My Savior!!!


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

I don't discount that there may be forces at work beyond our current understanding. Whether they're "gods" or not I don't live my life to please them or curry favor in the hopes of some reward. I live my life in the best way I know how and if it happens to please some overseer so be it. If it doesn't, they weren't worth the extra effort anyway.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

I don't believe in any of that at all. It was all developed by early man to explain the mysteries of nature, and then exploited by early governments to control the people. Now that we understand much of the basics of nature it is obvious that there is no such thing as any god or spirit or any of that stuff.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

agÂ·nosÂ·tic

noun

1. A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I do believe that there is something "outside" of us that is greater than the sum of the parts. There are too many coincidences in my life to believe otherwise. That of which we belong is beyond profound.


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## cindy71 (Jul 7, 2008)

I do believe in God. I do however do not go to church. Some folks tend to think if you don't go that you don't believe in him. I have meet some of the most Christ like people who never go to church.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

cindy71 said:


> I do believe in God. I do however do not go to church. Some folks tend to think if you don't go that you don't believe in him. I have meet some of the most Christ like people who never go to church.


I posted this yesterday in another thread, but I think this thread really needs to see it, and I believe your post is what made me think it needs to be said again.. Too many people walk into too many brain washing establishments... It all depends on who the head of the church is..


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

I"m not sure what label to put on myself but I highly doubt there is a God or gods and I have serious issues with the way religion is used on the masses. I think the Christian God existing is as likely as any Greek or Norse gods which is highly unlikely.

I was raised strict Christian for my first 16 years so I'm sure that will always have some effect on my life. The implosion of my life at that point and the loss of a great many family members will also have a major effect on my view of all things religious.

I think there is more to this world than can be seen with the eye. However, I find comfort in the cycle of Nature, sunrise and sunset, the changing of the seasons and the circle of life. I like tangibles and simplicity.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

I always 'believed' in God because that's what I was taught as a child. But I never really 'knew' God until the day I was filled w/ the Holy Spirit. That experience changed me forever, that's the day much was revealed to me, the day I _understood_ God's love and mercy, the significance of Jesus' sacrifice for *me*. 

I try to live a life pleasing to Him, not for the goal of living eternally in His presence (although that will be wonderful) but simply because I love Him. I fail at times but will never stop trying. He is more precious to me than anyone else, my relationship with Him is more important than anything else.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Txsteader said:


> I always 'believed' in God because that's what I was taught as a child. But I never really 'knew' God until the day I was filled w/ the Holy Spirit. That experience changed me forever, that's the day much was revealed to me, the day I _understood_ God's love and mercy, the significance of Jesus' sacrifice for *me*.
> 
> I try to live a life pleasing to Him, not for the goal of living eternally in His presence (although that will be wonderful) but simply because I love Him. I fail at times but will never stop trying. He is more precious to me than anyone else, my relationship with Him is more important than anything else.


The experience you had can take many forms. I talked to a survivor of a Japanese prison camp. They were very young when the family was interred. The experience marked them. The family essentially had what we now call PSTD after returning to the states after the war on a Liberty ship.

Given the closeness with death which was a matter of whim on the part of the Japanese, it changed them. They saw many murdered.

After they returned the young girl was thought to be retarded and was a disciplinary problem. Fortunately when the family returned to the Philippines the daughter spent time with a Buddhist family. That and her experience with what you've called the holy spirit changed her life profoundly.

She was touched spiritually in a way that brought her back from despair that came from her experiences. For her until that time there was no meaning to life.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

No, I do not.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. It is personal to me... He has changed this life, His gift to me.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

roadless said:


> .....or a Great Spirit, Higher Power.....whatever term you use.
> 
> If so, how does it manifest in your daily living?
> If not, why not?



Thank you all for your responses. ......would anyone be willing to elaborate on the questions above ?


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Yes, The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Living One true Creator of Heaven and earth. He answers my prayers daily, makes the impossible possible, is my healer, my protector and my provider. I would not be here without Him.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Of course I believe in God. We talk each and everyday. I spoke with him this morning. I can not imagine what it would be like to not believe in God. It is a force and a flavor to everything in my life. God is the sole cause and purpose of my existence. I truly feel sorry for those who claim to have no faith. To live in a pointless, black and white world full of nothing but yourself. A spiritual desert. It is like being stone cold deaf, surrounded by a symphony, and denying the music everyone else hears. Seriously, no sarcasm, I pity them.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Yes I believe in God. 

No I would prefer not to answer as our relationship is personal to me.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

JJ Grandits said:


> Of course I believe in God. We talk each and everyday. I spoke with him this morning. I can not imagine what it would be like to not believe in God. It is a force and a flavor to everything in my life. God is the sole cause and purpose of my existence. I truly feel sorry for those who claim to have no faith. To live in a pointless, black and white world full of nothing but yourself. A spiritual desert. It is like being stone cold deaf, surrounded by a symphony, and denying the music everyone else hears. Seriously, no sarcasm, I pity them.


And I'd say my beliefs leave me open to hearing all different kinds of music.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> Of course I believe in God. We talk each and everyday. I spoke with him this morning. I can not imagine what it would be like to not believe in God. It is a force and a flavor to everything in my life. God is the sole cause and purpose of my existence. I truly feel sorry for those who claim to have no faith. To live in a pointless, black and white world full of nothing but yourself. A spiritual desert. It is like being stone cold deaf, surrounded by a symphony, and denying the music everyone else hears. Seriously, no sarcasm, I pity them.


My nonbelief in a God is not at all like you imagine. I don't need a higher power to have all the things you believe it brings to your life. My family, my friends and the wonderful people of the world all help me bring those things to my life. That is all I need to have a happy fulfilled life.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

Txsteader said:


> I always 'believed' in God because that's what I was taught as a child. But I never really 'knew' God until the day I was filled w/ the Holy Spirit. That experience changed me forever, that's the day much was revealed to me, the day I _understood_ God's love and mercy, the significance of Jesus' sacrifice for *me*. *What did he say? What did he look like? Ask him why does he allow things like mass shootings to occur, or children with cancer? And tell him for me to knock it the heck off.*
> 
> I try to live a life pleasing to Him, not for the goal of living eternally in His presence (although that will be wonderful) but simply because I love Him. I fail at times but will never stop trying. He is more precious to me than anyone else, my relationship with Him is more important than anything else. *More important than your relationships with your family, any children you might have or with whatever entity which provides your income which allows you to eat and stay warm? That's the problem with many religions. Most don't allow for room for much sensibility or reality. It's not enough to believe in some mystical force which supports that which is good and battles that which is bad, it has to be complete and total belief that it controls everything. This god is all about good, yet it allows so much that is bad. Yeah, right. Flowery language that sounds so official that it must be the final word just doesn't cut it.*


Couldn't the POW girl just finally realized that her despair was a personal reaction that she chose to overcome? Brought on by a terrible experience, and understandable, but why does it have to be some mystical power which helped her to overcome and not just a personal choice to not let it continue to destroy her? If belief in some religion or god helped her understand that or give her the support to change her outlook then that is all well and good, but the same psychological process which allowed her to believe in that god also allowed her to believe in herself. Belief in some god in this case was no different from what animal trainers who use a clicker do. The belief is a bridge, just like the noise of a clicker, to get someone to do something which they already have within themselves but they just don't know it until they're trained, but neither the god nor the click are what caused the results. The person or the animal did on their own.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Yes, I do. It flies in the face of rational thought but nonetheless I do. I don't feel the need to defend or promote my belief; it's just there and part of me. I think that is faith. 
Religion....not so much.


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

Yes, I do and my reasons are my own, but I also believe in evolution and that the universe is billions of years old. 

I've been asked how I can reconcile my belief in God and evolution/big bang and my answer is always the same...as I am not all-knowing or have a background in physics/science, I cannot "prove" either one, but I accept the possibility that both can exist. 

My heart, my spirit, the essential core of what makes me "me" tells me there is something more than what can be explained by math or in a lab, but it does not negate that knowledge, either.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

basketti said:


> Yes, I do. It flies in the face of rational thought but nonetheless I do. I don't feel the need to defend or promote my belief; it's just there and part of me. I think that is faith.
> Religion....not so much.


Now that is the kind of outlook that I can accept even if I don't share the belief.

Some people believe in Bigfoot. I think that they're nuts, but as long as they don't tell me that I have to believe too, no problem.


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## MoTightwad (Sep 6, 2011)

Yes, I definitely believe in God. I was an OB nurse for years, and how couldn't I not believe in God when I saw a baby being born and the beauty of the process. Then the beautiful sunrises and sunsets and the flowers and birds that are with us daily. My prayers are answered each time my dh has heart surgery as he gets well and the doctors have my prayers also. I do not go to church but I am a true believer and will continue to be no matter what is said either side of the question.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Agriculture said:


> Couldn't the POW girl just finally realized that her despair was a personal reaction that she chose to overcome? Brought on by a terrible experience, and understandable, but* why does it have to be some mystical power which helped her to overcome and not just a personal choice to not let it continue to destroy her? *If belief in some religion or god helped her understand that or give her the support to change her outlook then that is all well and good, but the same psychological process which allowed her to believe in that god also allowed her to believe in herself.


I've never experienced the barbarism that she encountered. Many of the kids in that camp starved to death. She and a few others survived because Frank Buckles made a point of sharing food with them. Every day was hell.

After her family returned to this country she grew increasingly depressed and contemplated suicide. During an instance of deepest despondency she experienced a light and without hearing, heard something that brought her back from the abyss. 

She knew beyond doubt that she was loved by something greater than any of us. That made the difference in her life. 

My life experience hasn't been as remarkable. But I've learned quite recently that there are no coincidences. We're all capable of being in touch with all that is to one degree or another. Recognizing a connection when it occurs is something else.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

My questions are not meant to be invasive.....I certainly respect personal beliefs. ....I have always been a curious searcher.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

roadless said:


> My questions are not meant to be invasive.....I certainly respect personal beliefs. ....I have always been a curious searcher.


No offense taken. I just figured giving you a reason was better than ignoring the question. A few others answers are very close to my beliefs. I have tired through the years of trying to explain and ending up defending my beliefs so now I simply decline.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Without God you are a two dimensional person living in a three dimensional universe. You may believe you are a happy two dimensional person but that changes nothing. Anyways, be happy! I believe one way or the other we will all have our answers when the time comes. I think we can all agree that one point is completely true. If I am wrong, I will never know it. If you are wrong, you will.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> Without God you are a two dimensional person living in a three dimensional universe. You may believe you are a happy two dimensional person but that changes nothing. Anyways, be happy! I believe one way or the other we will all have our answers when the time comes. I think we can all agree that one point is completely true. If I am wrong, I will never know it. If you are wrong, you will.


You keep telling other what they are. That is a sad point of view. Then you top it off by telling them they will basically get their comeuppance if they are wrong. Instead you could have just expressed your opinion but you had to add in some judgement and tell us all that you are better off. If there is a god I don't believe that is how he would want anyone brought to his way.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> Without God you are a two dimensional person living in a three dimensional universe. You may believe you are a happy two dimensional person but that changes nothing. Anyways, be happy! I believe one way or the other we will all have our answers when the time comes. I think we can all agree that one point is completely true. If I am wrong, I will never know it. If you are wrong, you will.


Nope. Don't agree with that at all. In fact, I'm sure the exact same thought process is at play in the mind of a suicide bomber. They are absolutely sure as you are that their beliefs are the absolute truth.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

painterswife said:


> If there is a god I don't believe that is how he would want anyone brought to his way.


But don't forget that some guy wrote down somewhere that this god supposedly described himself as a vengeful god, so he must be. Except when he's not.

I am pleasantly surprised at how many people are willing to say that they don't believe. I didn't imagine that it would be that many. Even among seemingly normal people who are not fanatics I still find a lot who don't see a problem forcing their beliefs on others, such as supporting the "in god we trust" statements, or one nation under god, etc. They scream that we have separation of church and state in this country, but it is only to a certain degree. It is not true or full separation, and woe to anyone who dare speaks up about it in public. Moment of silence, fine. Opening prayer, you take off your own hat, I'm leaving mine on.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

painterswife said:


> You keep telling other what they are. That is a sad point of view. Then you top it off by telling them they will basically get their comeuppance if they are wrong. Instead you could have just expressed your opinion but you had to add in some judgement and tell us all that you are better off. If there is a god I don't believe that is how he would want anyone brought to his way.[/QUOTE
> 
> Au contraire! I am expressing a desire for them to gain new experiences. As far as the comeuppance goes, you must have misinterpreted my statement. It was simply an eventual outcome to the question we are discussing. A matter of faith, is a matter of faith. As far as being better goes, one thing that God tells us is that nobody is better. I pray that all those of non belief have a truly spiritual experience. Seriously, I really mean this in a good way. I'm sorry if my delivery puts anyone in an uncomfortable place.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> painterswife said:
> 
> 
> > You keep telling other what they are. That is a sad point of view. Then you top it off by telling them they will basically get their comeuppance if they are wrong. Instead you could have just expressed your opinion but you had to add in some judgement and tell us all that you are better off. If there is a god I don't believe that is how he would want anyone brought to his way.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Agriculture said:


> But don't forget that some guy wrote down somewhere that this god supposedly described himself as a vengeful god, so he must be. Except when he's not.
> 
> I am pleasantly surprised at how many people are willing to say that they don't believe. I didn't imagine that it would be that many. Even among seemingly normal people who are not fanatics I still find a lot who don't see a problem forcing their beliefs on others, such as supporting the "in god we trust" statements, or one nation under god, etc. They scream that we have separation of church and state in this country, but it is only to a certain degree. It is not true or full separation, and woe to anyone who dare speaks up about it in public. Moment of silence, fine. Opening prayer, you take off your own hat, I'm leaving mine on.


I understand. I would not have spoken up in the past and still often don't because I often get responses about how I will burn in hell or I am going to regret it when God judges me.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Yes I do believe in God, just like I believe in the sun and the moon.


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

I believe in God. I'm ok with those that don't. I'm ok with those that choose a different God/Gods. I don't require others to believe like me and I am not required to believe like others. 

I do not however understand why some people that believe differently from me believe they have a right/duty/obligation/option to make fun of the things I hold dear. 

If you disagree with me - I wish you well. I hope you can do the same for others that don't agree with you.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

I believe in god but I do not believe in organized religion. I am skeptical of holy books and holy men.

Before god placed men and women on the earth created the earth, so I find god's presence in unspooled nature. When mankind mangle nature it is no longer the way god intended it to be, it is perverted.

I find gods presence in moments of love and kindness.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Yes I believe in the one and only, the First and the Last. The God of Abraham. The Word of the bible. And I am happy about it. Contrary to many though, I feel it is the only rational way to think about our planet and our world around us. A Creator, when I release my rams to the ewes, when I watch a dormant seed sprout to life in the spring, when I watch the birds fly south for winter, the insects bury themselves and produce anti-freeze for winter. The fossils SCREAM out rapid burial in a flood, the sediment layers say the same thing. Ice age, mountain uplift, continental drift, oceanic trenches, inexplicable water beneath the earths crust, flash frozen mammoths, oil, potash deposits, coal. All the evidence points to a massive cataclysm. 

The impossibility of random DNA and RNA coming together: These are highly complex machines. There is simply no way they came into being by random chance. Gender, vision, metamorphosis: How could have these things been a product of random chance? The answer, is it is mathematically impossible. Thinking about metamorphosis alone. How would have it happened the first time on it's own. FAR, FAR too complex. It is IMHO very bizarre to attribute these things to random chance. It is totally irrational, unscientific, and simply unreal. The more we learn in science the more preposterous it is that it was random chance. There is no other explanation that comes close to making sense. So for me, and many many people, yes even in science, think God and His works are COMPLETELY rational and reconcilable with the strongest science possible. Nature SCREAMS and I repeat, SCREAMS, God. 

None of that could have just been chance. That is what is rational. Happenstance, or Divine creation? 

Now moving beyond this, there is no other "religion" that rationally explains life on earth, the whole plan, the whole redemption story. EVERY OTHER GOD is deader than a doornail. There is only ONE who claimed to have been God, and to have been raised from death. For us.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

No, I don't believe in any gods. How could I believe in a god and want to worship a god that would allow so much suffering in this world? That he (or she) would allow entire populations of nations to die of war, famines, diseases, etc. The idea that 3 passengers in a car die in an accident but that he will save the 4th person on purpose? Why let the other 3 die? That rapists, drug dealers, and murders can all of the sudden find their faith and get forgiveness and be allowed into heaven just because they say they've seen the light?

And you know what seals the deal? What really makes me feel confindent that I'm comfortable in my non belief? When JJ Grandits says at the end of my life here on earth that I will find out if there's no god or not...like I should be scared of an eternity in hell. Because, although I'm a good person, and I treat people well and treat them how I'd like to be treated--that because I don't believe in god, I'm not going to be allowed into heaven. I wouldn't want to believe in someone who treats people like that anyways.

I do believe in the beauty and magic of nature. I think science is awesome. The human body is awesome. The earth is awesome. Our solar system is amazing, and beautiful. I believe that people are good, and that while there may be some bad apples, the majority of us are kind and good. I know that I'm living a happy and fulfilled life, surrounded by family and friends who love me, and I them. I enjoy the scenery and the music, and I don't miss out on anything.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MDKatie, that was a powerful post.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

MDKatie said:


> No, I don't believe in any gods. How could I believe in a god and want to worship a god that would allow so much suffering in this world? That he (or she) would allow entire populations of nations to die of war, famines, diseases, etc. The idea that 3 passengers in a car die in an accident but that he will save the 4th person on purpose? Why let the other 3 die? That rapists, drug dealers, and murders can all of the sudden find their faith and get forgiveness and be allowed into heaven just because they say they've seen the light?
> 
> And you know what seals the deal? What really makes me feel confindent that I'm comfortable in my non belief? When JJ Grandits says at the end of my life here on earth that I will find out if there's no god or not...like I should be scared of an eternity in hell. Because, although I'm a good person, and I treat people well and treat them how I'd like to be treated--that because I don't believe in god, I'm not going to be allowed into heaven. I wouldn't want to believe in someone who treats people like that anyways.
> 
> I do believe in the beauty and magic of nature. I think science is awesome. The human body is awesome. The earth is awesome. Our solar system is amazing, and beautiful. I believe that people are good, and that while there may be some bad apples, the majority of us are kind and good. I know that I'm living a happy and fulfilled life, surrounded by family and friends who love me, and I them. I enjoy the scenery and the music, and I don't miss out on anything.


I also wonder about religions that preach that those who dont believe as they do would be consigned to hell. People cant help what religion they are born into, it's largely cultural and most times geographically influenced. 
So a loving God would condemn those who are born in an Amazonian tribe to hell because they've never even heard of Christianity? If the Christians here were born in the middle east, they'd be Islam and thinking Christians were going to hell.

No way.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

And to think of all of the people who came before, such as the Native Americans and all other cultures who lived before first contact with so-called civilized Christians, who will also not be allowed into heaven. Yeah, that's a fair god who I want to follow. I might be wrong about this, but if I remember correctly Jews aren't getting in either. Yeah, sorry guys but you're all considered Jesus killers, since a few of your ancestors killed an early PT Barnum about 2000 years ago. Your loss, so sorry, but the Christians will be partying it up. Oh, and if you haven't suffered enough, you're all going to the same place as Hitler anyway. If that isn't a kick in the pants. Hey, but it's all part of gods plan.


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

I hear the wind in the pines and it moves and stirs me in ways I do not understand. I return to it when I can. That I can contemplate it is enough to run me over with gratitude. From Whom all blessings flow, I do not know. But I have none before.


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## scooter (Mar 31, 2008)

I love God with all my body and soul, he has been with me always through some really bad times in my life and I was comforted by that fact.

God hath not promised skies always blue,
Flower-strewn pathways all our lives through;
God hath not promised sun without rain,
Joy without sorrow, peace without pain. But God hath promised strength for the day,
Rest for the labor, light for the way,
Grace for the trials, help from above,
Unfailing sympathy, undying love. 
God hath not promised we shall not know
Toil and temptation, trouble and woe;
He hath not told us we shall not bear
Many a burden, many a care. 
God hath not promised smooth roads and wide,
Swift, easy travel, needing no guide;
Never a mountain, rocky and steep,
Never a river, turbid and deep.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Agriculture said:


> And to think of all of the people who came before, such as the Native Americans and all other cultures who lived before first contact with so-called civilized Christians, who will also not be allowed into heaven. Yeah, that's a fair god who I want to follow. I might be wrong about this, but if I remember correctly Jews aren't getting in either. Yeah, sorry guys but you're all considered Jesus killers, since a few of your ancestors killed an early PT Barnum about 2000 years ago. Your loss, so sorry, but the Christians will be partying it up. Oh, and if you haven't suffered enough, you're all going to the same place as Hitler anyway. If that isn't a kick in the pants. Hey, but it's all part of gods plan.


I wouldn't get too wrapped up in that heaven versus hell sales pitch. Anthropomorphizing God was always part of organized religion. That's why folks get confused when so-called bad things happen to good people.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

I had a friend whose son is gay. she firmly believes he will burn in hell. I asked her what she thought she would be doing in heaven while her son was burning. she said God would wipe him completely from her mind. if I had to live for years with those thoughts about my precious boy. I'd have been carried off in a straight jacket. things like that is part of why I left it all behind long ago. ~Georgia


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Agriculture said:


> And to think of all of the people who came before, such as the Native Americans and all other cultures who lived before first contact with so-called civilized Christians, who will also not be allowed into heaven. Yeah, that's a fair god who I want to follow. I might be wrong about this, but if I remember correctly Jews aren't getting in either. Yeah, sorry guys but you're all considered Jesus killers, since a few of your ancestors killed an early PT Barnum about 2000 years ago. Your loss, so sorry, but the Christians will be partying it up. Oh, and if you haven't suffered enough, you're all going to the same place as Hitler anyway. If that isn't a kick in the pants. Hey, but it's all part of gods plan.


You should study the Hopi Indians before you cast your final judgement. Specifically the Hisatsinom or Ancient Ones. There are references to a "Jesus" character worshiped in their history. Of course, they did not call Him "Jesus" but it is on a parallel with Christianity.

Furthermore, does anyone know someone that has not sinned, ever? The Bible advises us that God can know no sin. So in that light, if a person has told a little white lie, then that "sin" places him on par with a terrorist or serial killer, all are in the Category labeled "Sinner". 

Imagine a King that has a set of Laws that no one can follow every single one, and he says that the punishment for not following all of my laws is death. How well do you think that will work? Sure, some will try their very hardest and will come close, but, they will find it impossible to keep themselves innocent through the course of their life here on earth.

So now we must call the king evil? Or, finding that we all deserve death, you will find that the king had a son that he sent into the kingdom and, let's just say that the king would call him on his cell phone and say to him, " I give to you, Jerry Springer, he is yours." The son sends his agent to cover that person in his redemptive writ. This happens over and over, the king giving people to his son. Now when the day comes to pass, and the king calls all people to account for themselves, and Jerry Springer's name gets called - the king's son stands before him so that the king only sees his son, the king therefore calls Jerry forgiven. This as a matter of course goes on throughout the kingdom until all have been called to account for themselves.

You ask "How can a basically good person be sent to hell?" - None, no not one, are deserving of a life in heaven. To get there, first God must put us into the hands of Christ, there we will find the things of Christ pleasing and we will grow into that being that God has planned from the beginning of time. Not one of us can decide at some point that - Oh, we will worship God and be good people and go to heaven for eternity. If you cannot be completely Righteous, you cannot do it alone. God must place you in the hands of the Son, He must do it Himself, for if you find yourself in Heaven all from work that you did yourself then you could claim some of the Glory for the work that God did. Sorry, all Glory goes to God.

This is pretty much how I understand the whole ball of wax...


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

God does not make our suffering, we make our own. This world is a world of suffering. We suffer illness, old age, and death because those are the transient conditions of all living things on this planet but the greatest thing we suffer from is the misuse of freewill by ourselves and others.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Agriculture said:


> And to think of all of the people who came before, such as the Native Americans and all other cultures who lived before first contact with so-called civilized Christians, who will also not be allowed into heaven. Yeah, that's a fair god who I want to follow. I might be wrong about this, but if I remember correctly Jews aren't getting in either. Yeah, sorry guys but you're all considered Jesus killers, since a few of your ancestors killed an early PT Barnum about 2000 years ago. Your loss, so sorry, but the Christians will be partying it up. Oh, and if you haven't suffered enough, you're all going to the same place as Hitler anyway. If that isn't a kick in the pants. Hey, but it's all part of gods plan.


Not every Christian religion believes that.
Not every Christian religion believes in a literal fire and brimstone Hell
Not every Christian religion believes the Bible is the infallible word of God
Not every Christian religion believes in a young Earth.
Not every Christian religion believes the Flood covered the whole planet
Some Christian religions believe God uses evolution to carry out his plans

I wish you'd stop lumping us all together


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

City Bound said:


> God does not make our suffering, we make our own. This world is a world of suffering. We suffer illness, old age, and death because those are the transient conditions of all living things on this planet but the greatest thing we suffer from is the misuse of freewill by ourselves and others.


So god isn't to blame for the suffering in the world, but he is to be credited for all the good things?


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

MDKatie said:


> So god isn't to blame for the suffering in the world, but he is to be credited for all the good things?


Who said that?

I once asked an atheist to describe what he thought Christians believed about God.
You know what? I couldn't believe in a monster like that either.

Most vocal Atheists seem to take little bits they hear from any source whatsoever and put together a God no one could believe in.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mnn2501 said:


> Not every Christian religion believes that.
> Not every Christian religion believes in a literal fire and brimstone Hell
> Not every Christian religion believes the Bible is the infallible word of God
> Not every Christian religion believes in a young Earth.
> ...


Says the one who complains "atheists and liberals ruined HT"

Here's another one for your "not every" list:

Not every Christian *acts* like one, which gives the rest a bad name


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Says the one who complains "atheists and liberals ruined HT"
> 
> Here's another one for your "not every" list:
> 
> Not every Christian *acts* like one, which gives the rest a bad name


I don't agree. I don't judge my Christian family and friends by others action.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

mnn2501 said:


> Who said that?


It was a question. It sounded like that's what City Bound was insinuating, so I asked to clarify.

And to clarify, what do you mean by "vocal atheist"? Do you mean those answering questions that were asked?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> I don't agree. I don't judge my Christian family and friends by others action.


There's a *general* tendency to judge groups by the actions of those who claim membership.

There are always exceptions to rules. 

Most of the *real* Christians I know seldom talk about it, but show it clearly through their actions


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

MDKatie said:


> So god isn't to blame for the suffering in the world, but he is to be credited for all the good things?


 No. we get credit for good things also. God rejoices in our sincere goodness.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

MDKatie said:


> So god isn't to blame for the suffering in the world, but he is to be credited for all the good things?


Yes, because God is good all the time.
He makes the rain fall and the sun shine on the just and the unjust.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

MDKatie said:


> And to clarify, what do you mean by "vocal atheist"? Do you mean those answering questions that were asked?


No, I mean those that go around bad mouthing anyone who believes in (a) God.
Many atheists are content to live and let live, I'm talking about the others - the ones that feel they must ridicule believers.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's just one more label for "us vs them".
> 
> Don't pretend there hasn't been hypocrisy, ridicule and mocking from *both* sides.
> 
> Lots of folks are hammering those nails while passing the blame


Right on. Yeah, maybe I can get carried away every once in a while, but in this case there's not much limit to the fuel that feeds my fire.

I still see a lot of folks here using the reasoning that because some one or some group wrote it down and claim it to be the word of a god that it must be true. That, or putting it in flowery biblical verse that just sounds so official isn't nearly enough for me. Not even close. Gods and religions are simply contrivances of man. That's it.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

roadless said:


> .....or a Great Spirit, Higher Power.....whatever term you use.
> 
> If so, *how does it manifest in your daily living?*
> If not, why not?


It manifests with objects, personal experiences and events that are sometimes like little miracles. I get messages or gifts from higher power. A couple of examples:

For the past month or so I've been keeping an eye out for a used Black & Decker Handy Steamer rice cooker in the local 2nd hand thrift stores. No urgent reason for it and I wasn't expending a lot of effort looking for one but whenever I go for my daily walkabout if I passed by one or more thrift stores I'd pop in and take a look to see if one had been donated yet. So no luck on that for several weeks. But ...... 4 days ago I woke up and got out of bed "knowing" that I had to bypass my usual morning routine and get dressed and go out immediately to the Women's Shelter thrift store that is 2 blocks away because there was _something_ there that I wanted. It was a mystery but having learned from past experiences to always follow through on these messages or knowing hunches or whatever you want to call it, I did that. I "knew" when I walked in their front door to go directly to the furniture department (I don't need ANY furniture) and to go look at the selections of chests of drawers sitting in the back corner. I did that and there sitting on top of the tallest chest of drawers behind all the other chests was a Black & Decker Handy Steamer rice cooker in 'like new' condition. For $3. I got it and it works great. 

Incidents like getting that kind of message or "knowing" happen to me all the time. I don't expect it or take it for granted, and I always, always say thank you and feel sincere appreciation when it does happen. 

I should mention here that nobody else lives with me or has access to my home. That's noteworthy because another thing that happens is I'm always finding things free that I've been thinking about needing or wanting, very often finding them on the very same day I think about them. Nothing very expensive, always small minor items, usually tools of some kind (I'm a tool junkie) and a couple of times I've found small gold jewellery items that I wasn't thinking about, and very often the items seem to magically manifest out of the air. As in, not there 2 minutes ago and then suddenly there appearing out of nowhere. I find them on the street or sidewalk, in the garden, down back alleys, out in the woods, under bushes, sometimes they'll appear on a table or counter top in a room inside my home, inside a cupboard or in a pocket in an item of clothing, under carpets and floor mats, in the fridge, or hanging on a coat hook in the hallway. Etc.

That's just a couple of examples of manifestations, there's lots of other things happen but I'll not bore you with them. So if these messages and gifts are not coming from a Higher Power, what can possibly be the explanation?


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

There is no earthly way to explain "things" that have been shone to me, or what I have heard (not from people) , for me to NOT KNOW for sure that there a God.
I realize some do not have those kinds of things happen to them, I'm sure God has his reasons for that and that is ok. It took a whole life of going thru hell on earth and many "gifts", always having a sense of a power arround me. It took that to be smacked upside the head and then everything made sense and then came proof. I can't turn back. Now, I get small crazy amazing things happen all the time. Not like the huge ones, but Blessings that keep me in Faith just when I need it most.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

MDKatie said:


> No, I don't believe in any gods. How could I believe in a god and want to worship a god that would allow so much suffering in this world? That he (or she) would allow entire populations of nations to die of war, famines, diseases, etc. The idea that 3 passengers in a car die in an accident but that he will save the 4th person on purpose? Why let the other 3 die? That rapists, drug dealers, and murders can all of the sudden find their faith and get forgiveness and be allowed into heaven just because they say they've seen the light.


Sinse I know very little of just 1 religion and a bit of many. I'll try to explain how I see it.
This is earth, this is not heaven nor hell. It's not about God "allowing" suffering , this is earth, this , good and suffering is how earth is and dealing with imperfect people and all their issues. What happens, how we see it and how we react to it , is very influanced on if we beleive. Having a guide , a good one (God and his love, his Son's death and rebirth) help us do the right thing with our lives. If a person, does something wrong, knows it and knows there is a God that accepts that we are not perfect, yet loves us still, we can forgive ourselves and try again to behave the loving way.
Only God can know what in someones heart, such as the repentant criminal, so it's up to God to let them into Heaven or not.
Me, as a imperfect human, if I can't deal with a issue or person, I get away from them and let God deal with them.I have to judge them to do that for myself( to save myself from harm, I'm not stupid I know there bad people,just as good people), but I CANNOT pass judgement on them. 2 huge issues , 2 diffrent things that many that do not belive in God do not understand.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

I believe everyone should be allowed to believe whatever they want to.
That said, I personally believe in God. Or something like that. Maybe it's a Great Spirit, like an elegy force that permeates the whole world and is good and sort of what the Indians believed in. I am much more Spiritual than Religious; I believe most organized religion is simply a method of controlling people through emotions.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Fennick said:


> It manifests with objects, personal experiences and events that are sometimes like little miracles. I get messages or gifts from higher power. A couple of examples:
> 
> For the past month or so I've been keeping an eye out for a used Black & Decker Handy Steamer rice cooker in the local 2nd hand thrift stores. No urgent reason for it and I wasn't expending a lot of effort looking for one but whenever I go for my daily walkabout if I passed by one or more thrift stores I'd pop in and take a look to see if one had been donated yet. So no luck on that for several weeks. But ...... 4 days ago I woke up and got out of bed "knowing" that I had to bypass my usual morning routine and get dressed and go out immediately to the Women's Shelter thrift store that is 2 blocks away because there was _something_ there that I wanted. It was a mystery but having learned from past experiences to always follow through on these messages or knowing hunches or whatever you want to call it, I did that. I "knew" when I walked in their front door to go directly to the furniture department (I don't need ANY furniture) and to go look at the selections of chests of drawers sitting in the back corner. I did that and there sitting on top of the tallest chest of drawers behind all the other chests was a Black & Decker Handy Steamer rice cooker in 'like new' condition. For $3. I got it and it works great.
> 
> ...


Sometimes I am surprised to find money in a pants pocket or jacket pocket. Then I realize I put it there long ago and forgot about it. :shrug: And if there was a god, wouldn't he have better things to do than put a $3 rice cooker in your thrift store? I get excited about things like that too- I had been looking at $30 yogurt makers on Amazon and then found one for $4 at a yard sale. I was pretty happy, but it was coincidence, not divine yogurt intervention. 

And I'm not being a jerk, I am happy for you that you found a rice cooker, those things are handy. I just don't understand how people credit god with trivial things when there are people dying every day who don't deserve it.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

MDKatie said:


> Sometimes I am surprised to find money in a pants pocket or jacket pocket. Then I realize I put it there long ago and forgot about it. :shrug: And if there was a god, wouldn't he have better things to do than put a $3 rice cooker in your thrift store? I get excited about things like that too- I had been looking at $30 yogurt makers on Amazon and then found one for $4 at a yard sale. I was pretty happy, but it was coincidence, not divine yogurt intervention.
> 
> And I'm not being a jerk, I am happy for you that you found a rice cooker, those things are handy. I just don't understand how people credit god with trivial things when there are people dying every day who don't deserve it.


I agree with you on that. While I believe in God I don't believe God intervenes in human affairs. But if you read my post again you should take note that I never once mentioned God nor did I attribute the messages or gifts I receive as coming from God. 

I said Higher Power and I don't consider Higher Power to be the same thing as God. Higher Power isn't divine and it is something that everybody has access to whether they believe in God or not.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Fennick, knowing that the term "higher power" is an accepted alternative term for God it seems a little bait and switch going on here... :hrm:

City Bound, if you say you don't believe in the validity of Holy Scriptures then why did you share the video about Walid S. ? It was chock full of biblical references.

I had a family member who was agnostic. It afforded him no solace on his death bed. I had another friend who was Buddhist who converted to Catholicism shortly before he died. Since we were separated by a long distance I'm not sure if he came to a peace of mind before he passed.

As I said in another post each person has the right to believe what they wish. I pray for my loved ones, my friends, people that decisions that affect my life or the lives of people who I love/care for. I would not deliberately say I would pray for a person who specifically requested me not to. That is sort of putting the toe over the line. Not saying I wouldn't do it just saying I wouldn't make it an arm wrestling contest.

I find when I read the Bible I experience a greater degree of peace in the following days. Strange if it is a just a book on the same level of sci fi or gardening... :whistlin: And I really like sci fi and gardening.


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## Declan (Jan 18, 2015)

roadless said:


> .....or a Great Spirit, Higher Power.....whatever term you use.
> 
> If so, how does it manifest in your daily living?
> If not, why not?


I have a much harder time believing in Jesus than I do some other higher power.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Alrighty made it through all 5 pages. I really appreciate reading all of the honest thoughtful responses from people sharing their beliefs or non-beliefs. Very interesting.

To answer the OP I am an Apatheist. That basically means I am burnt out on the whole God thing and I just don't care anymore. 

I started life in a Fundamentalist Christian family. It was not good. I became Wiccan for 7 years. Then I went back to Christianity and stayed a Christian for a little over 20 years. Anyone here who has known me for several years can attest to the fact that I was very seriously committed to my faith and a strong scholar and apologist of it. 

2 things convinced me that Christianity was not real. The Bible gives 2 proofs to show that the faith is true. One is that people will be changed from sinful to completely new and better versions. The second one is that we will know we are Christians by the love we show each other. I am sure you won't have any trouble seeing the lack of love sadly. The big one to me though was the lack of change. Coming to Christ was supposed to literally make us a whole new person. 

Well the problem is what I have seen is that good people who become Christians generally become a little nicer. Rotten people frequently stay pretty rotten. But any change I have seen can be achieved through other means. Time spent in therapy, other religions, watching Oprah, reading a few good books on behavior modification etc. I never saw a change that was truly supernatural. 

And that went across the board. I saw nothing that couldn't be explained rationally. The voice of God was just the little voice in my head. Coincidence and cause and effect explained the vast majority of what happens in our lives. One day it just hit me I really didn't believe there was anyone out there anymore. And it wasn't sad or scary. It was actually kind of nice and freeing. 

So what do I believe now? I don't think there is anything after this life. I do think there are things that seem supernatural that are just natural and we don't understand them. I do believe in Jung's concept of the collective unconscious. I think that is where things like precognition and Fennick's urge to go to the Thrift store come from. I think our minds actual shape reality to some degree. I think it is very bad for all of us when we steep ourselves in despair and dark thoughts. 

I have wandered back towards Wicca and it's focus on nature, there are actual quite a few Pagans who do not believe in Gods and that is appealing to me. I am content in a way that I have never been because I can accept myself for who I am. It's really rather nice.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

light rain said:


> City Bound, if you say you don't believe in the validity of Holy Scriptures then why did you share the video about Walid S. ? It was chock full of biblical references.
> 
> 
> .


I believe but I am skeptical at the same time because the holy books of the world in all religions have been tampered with ether intentionally or unintentionally throughout history. I read holy books with extreme caution. Walid S is a good example of why I treat holy books and holy men with caution. Before Walid S all the interpretations of revelations came across as nonsense made up by con men or the esoteric babblings of some hippy on acid. Walid is the first person I heard present it logically and with strong cultural references from the middle eastern culture that the religion came from. I think walid is on to something.

Some people feel the bible is the unchanged word of god written by god through the hand of man. Some people feel the bible is the work of man simply for man's own sake. Some feel it is a mix of both. Others feel that all holy books of all cultures are the manifestation of mankind reaching out into the unknown of greater creation seeking something that they know is there but at the same time not being able to explain why they know....they seek confirmation.

The catholic churched gathered various texts and lumped them together to form what we call the bible today. I am not sure if I would call that completely trustworthy. The best thing to do I feel, is to pray for guidance from the holy spirit. Hindus call the holy spirit paramatma.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Members were asked to share their faith and answer questions. Nobody is forcing anyone to convert or impose their beliefs on another so please treat each other's comments with the same respect and courtesy you expect from others.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Thanks Mods! :nono::bow:


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## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

I believe in father,son and holy spirit.I love God with all my heart and I love my neighbor as myself.I try to live my life as I think is God's will.I get up every morning,walk to the kitchen sink,fill a glass of water,look at the sunrise and thank God for giving me another day.My belief in God gives me the peace I am experiencing in life.God is great.


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## hippygirl (Apr 3, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Says the one who complains "atheists and liberals ruined HT"
> 
> Here's another one for your "not every" list:
> 
> _*Not every Christian acts like one, which gives the rest a bad name*_


Hmmm, first thing that came to mind when I read this was restructure that sentence just a bit and replace the word "Christian" with Muslims, homosexuals, blacks, liberals, conservatives, or..........

If we allow ourselves to assign an entire group of people a bad name JUST because SOME deserve it, then what does that say about us? Some folks think it makes them smart or savvy, but, IMO, it makes them look like a fool.

Now, HAVING SAID THAT, I'll be the first to admit I've been known to closely resemble a fool from time to time, but I always TRY to remain objective and open-minded. Sometimes I fail, but I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

light rain said:


> Fennick, knowing that the term "higher power" is an accepted alternative term for God it seems a little bait and switch going on here... :hrm:


You're right and I apologize for that, though bait and switch wasn't my intention. Roadless specifically asked about how higher power manifests in our lives and the manifestations in my own life was what I was focusing on explaining in my first post. I should have said right at the outset that for me there are differences. So I'll elaborate. 

I believe in God the universal "I Am" or collective "All that Is", who is the Big Boss Of Everything and who does not intervene in human affairs. Then there are all the little gods that humans have created into their mythologies, cults and religions but who also don't/can't intervene because they don't have any real power. 

Then there are many other higher powers who do have powers and do intervene. There's angels, ghosts, multi-dimensional nature spirits beyond counting and naming who possess and do use their powers to intervene on a regular basis, sometimes daily for some special people. 

And there is the multi-dimensional higher powers of self, or what some might call the higher powers of the mind and I believe that kind of higher power is the one that has the most frequent influence on humans but most people don't realize it. Most religious people think that the higher power of self is actually the Big Boss God or else their little god intervening on their behalf but really it's just their own higher self/selves making things manifest for them or inspiring them. Sometimes individually, sometimes collectively as a group consciousness like you see happening with charismatic cults.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I heard a sermon once about the internal and the external spirit of God. Could the extreme negative attacks by those with no faith simply be a defense against the guilt they feel for ignoring Gods internal spirit? They know that something is wrong, yet they are so self centered that they refuse to believe it is something in them. Therefore they attack what causes their guilt.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> I heard a sermon once about the internal and the external spirit of God. Could the extreme negative attacks by those with no faith simply be a defense against the guilt they feel for ignoring Gods internal spirit? They know that something is wrong, yet they are so self centered that they refuse to believe it is something in them. Therefore they attack what causes their guilt.


Then what is the explanation for those with faith? There is no real internal or external faith and they just like to make negative attacks?


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

painterswife said:


> Then what is the explanation for those with faith? There is no real internal or external faith and they just like to make negative attacks?


Thank you for supporting my statement.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> Thank you for supporting my statement.


I suspected you would say that.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

JJ Grandits said:


> I heard a sermon once about the internal and the external spirit of God. Could the extreme negative attacks by those with no faith simply be a defense against the guilt they feel for ignoring Gods internal spirit? They know that something is wrong, yet they are so self centered that they refuse to believe it is something in them. Therefore they attack what causes their guilt.


I don't think it's got anything to do with guilt, I think it's about upholding personal dignity, individuality and pride of self. I think when attacks come from people who don't believe in the supernatural that somebody else believes in, it's a defense against the supernatural believer who has implied that there's something pitiful, wrong, self-centered, ignorant or missing in them for not being a believer or not having the same experiences like the supernatural believer. That implication of wrongness and judgementalism from the supernatural believer is an attack too.

Nobody likes it when somebody else gloats and gets condescending about having or believing something that the other person doesn't, as if they think having it or believing it makes them superior and more fortunate.

Both kinds of attack are wrong but whichever one of them it was who made the first attack is the one who is the most wrong.


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## scooter (Mar 31, 2008)

roadless, you asked the question, but, I haven't seen where you stated your beliefs.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

Lol....that is why I started this conversation. ..it is hard for me to articulate my beliefs and was hoping to get some clarity from other's points of view. 

Something deep within me has a sense of a force that is beyond anything mortal.....


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

roadless said:


> Lol....that is why I started this conversation. ..it is hard for me to articulate my beliefs and was hoping to get some clarity from other's points of view.
> 
> *Something deep within me has a sense of a force that is beyond anything mortal*.....


Some things just can't be articulated.

If it feels right for you then accept it, appreciate it and go with the flow of it.

If it feels not right for you then ignore it.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

I have no problem with coincidences and I think Nature is perfectly capable of forming a universe as complex as the one we live in. I think anything that is attributed to a miracle is just some part of Nature or science that we don't understand yet or that there is a perfectly good explanation for it that we aren't aware of at the time.

Personally, if someone has an epiphany and finds God or whatever spiritual path that gives them comfort and happiness I'm happy for them. They can even tell me all about it and I'll tell them I'm glad for them. However, when I hear comments like JJ Grandits posts at the beginning of this thread saying that those who don't believe as they do have meaningless, empty, two dimensional lives I have a problem with that. Please believe me when I say I'm happy you have a spiritual path that gives your life purpose and meaning but don't pretend that you know where my life has taken me and the journey I'm on and whether my life is fulfilled or not. As the saying goes "Be kind to everyone for you know not what battles they are fighting inside".

Live your life with purpose and conviction and let your life be an example of your chosen path but don't criticize the path others take. If your path is exemplary enough it will attract others to it without you being condescending and obnoxious to other people.

ETA: The last two sentences were not aimed at JJ Grandits personally. It should be something we all live by.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Considering how fast this conversation devolved, it is hardly any wonder we have holy wars still.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Heritagefarm said:


> Considering how fast this conversation devolved, it is hardly any wonder we have holy wars still.


It's still open and there are fewer deleted comments than I expected... I'm impressed. :shrug:


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Fennick, I liked your statement about attacks because it made sense to me from a biblical standpoint. Jesus, if represented accurately and wholly only attacked the merchants in the temple. They were all believers on the same playing field and being that He was son of God he had the liberty to do so. 

I can personally become obnoxious with folks about diet and lifestyle. Some of that is prompted from what I would think would be the opportunity for a longer, healthier life with less complaining about aches, pains and the accompanying despair. I am trying modify this urge for the sake of peace for them and myself while knowing that the continuing direction is littered with unpleasant realities...

I strongly don't agree with your advice if it feels right accept it. :umno:

How many marriage breakups and heartaches were touched by the song If you can't be with the one you love... ?

How many young people expire from multiple types of drugs each day?

How many old people down in FLA decided that if one pain killer was helpful 2 or more might get rid of all the pain? It does regularly and lethally...

The thing each one of the situations have in common is a lack of searching for the truth. I believe we were given brains to make use of them. To avoid using a tool that will improve our chances of survival/happiness seems like such a waste and the ultimate type of foolishness.

I capitalize "God" because I believe in his divine nature. Do you all use a small "g" because you don't? Not complaining, just trying to understand.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

light rain said:


> I believe we were given brains to make use of them. To avoid using a tool that will improve our chances of survival/happiness seems like such a waste and the ultimate type of foolishness.
> 
> I capitalize "God" because I believe in his divine nature. Do you all use a small "g" because you don't? Not complaining, just trying to understand.


I use my brain all the time. I can't grasp the concept of thinking that those who don't believe in gods or don't have religion in their lives are missing out or need to be "convinced" to think the same way you think. I'm sure there's not one single adult out there who hasn't ever heard of god or the concept of religion. If one wants, one can choose to find out more or convert. Why keep harping on it? To make yourself feel better? I think it's rude to keep harping and nagging people to do things just like you do it, just so you'll feel better about their lives. Let people live their own lives, and you live your life. 

And I don't capitalize god because I don't believe there is one, therefore I don't need to make it a proper noun.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

MDKatie, I am not trying to convince you of any religious ideology. The whole point of my last post was to refute the wisdom of the statement, if it feels right accept it. That is why I used concrete, non-arguable examples, that are not based on faith. Pure statistics and headline news...

People are bombarded today with so many different attitudes, philosophies and opportunities for both good and bad. My post was to encourage everyone at every age to seek out the truth. 

Harping and nagging. I thought I was just giving my opinion in a peaceful, non-confrontational manner. I am allowed to do that here, right?


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## deb_rn (Apr 16, 2010)

YES.

Debbie


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## WildernesFamily (Mar 11, 2006)

roadless said:


> .....or a Great Spirit, Higher Power.....whatever term you use.
> 
> If so, how does it manifest in your daily living?
> If not, why not?


Yes. I believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit... the Trinity.

As a Christian (follower of Christ) it manifests in my daily living by me trying to see and love the world through the eyes of Christ... I believe this is a more gradual process for some than others. For me, as I strive daily to be more like Jesus, I can look back on my life and see the changes to how I live and I can see God in each step. Further, I live with hope and with peace that I believe can only come from Him. I feel His presence in my life on a daily basis, in different ways. I spend time with Him in prayer and through reading the Bible, though admittedly not always on a daily basis like I would like it to be.

I could add so much more... but I think that directly answers your questions 

Edited for typo.


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## Mrs. Thankful (Dec 4, 2013)

Yes. Below is a song and the creed I follow. 
*
&#8216;I Believe in God Almighty&#8217; - Creedal hymn by Sylvia Dunstan*

I believe in God almighty, Author of all things that be,
Maker of the earth and heavens, Keeper of the sky and sea.
I believe in God&#8217;s Son, Jesus, now for us both Lord and Christ,
of the Spirit and of Mary born to bring abundant life.

I believe that Jesus suffered, scourged and scorned and crucified;
taken from the cross, was buried&#8212;true Life there had truly died.
I believe that on the third day Christ was raised up from the grave,
then ascended to God&#8217;s right hand. He will come to judge and save.

I believe in God&#8217;s own Spirit, bonding all the saints within
one church, catholic and holy, where forgiveness frees from sin;
in the body&#8217;s resurrection, for the breaking of death&#8217;s chain
gives the life that&#8217;s everlasting. This the faith that I have claimed.

For this song the "c" is not capitalized in catholic because it does not mean the "Catholic Church" see below:


> cathÂ·oÂ·lic
> &#712;kaTH(&#601lik/Submit
> adjective
> adjective: *catholic*; adjective: Catholic
> ...


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

light rain said:


> MDKatie, I am not trying to convince you of any religious ideology. The whole point of my last post was to refute the wisdom of the statement, if it feels right accept it. That is why I used concrete, non-arguable examples, that are not based on faith. Pure statistics and headline news...
> 
> People are bombarded today with so many different attitudes, philosophies and opportunities for both good and bad. My post was to encourage everyone at every age to seek out the truth.
> 
> Harping and nagging. I thought I was just giving my opinion in a peaceful, non-confrontational manner. I am allowed to do that here, right?


My post was more of a general statement, since you said in your previous post that you can get "obnoxious" with people about diet and lifestyle. Then it turned into a general, broader question about why many religious people in general feel the need to try to convert people or convince them they're missing out on something (happiness, the "truth", whatever it may be). I'm sorry if you felt I was saying you were trying to convert me, because that is not what I meant.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

light rain said:


> ........* unpleasant realities*...
> 
> I strongly don't agree with your advice if it feels right accept it.
> 
> ...


Roadless said "Something deep within me has a sense of *a force that is beyond anything mortal*..... "

Light Rain, the unpleasant realities you have mentioned above you are equating with an immortal force, but they are not, they are all human constructs. Mortal problems that humans create for themselves. The only thing each of them has in common is that they are human caused problems created in spite of those people already knowing the truth in advance that they may likely create more human problems for themselves. They are not influenced by a force that is beyond anything mortal when they do those things.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Fennick said:


> I don't think it's got anything to do with guilt, I think it's about upholding personal dignity, individuality and pride of self. I think when attacks come from people who don't believe in the supernatural that somebody else believes in, it's a defense against the supernatural believer who has implied that there's something pitiful, wrong, self-centered, ignorant or missing in them for not being a believer or not having the same experiences like the supernatural believer. That implication of wrongness and judgementalism from the supernatural believer is an attack too.
> 
> Nobody likes it when somebody else gloats and gets condescending about having or believing something that the other person doesn't, as if they think having it or believing it makes them superior and more fortunate.
> 
> Both kinds of attack are wrong but whichever one of them it was who made the first attack is the one who is the most wrong.


I accept that it is in the manner by which the "blessing(s)" are offered. Being in the Customer Service field has many times gotten me in trouble when I've required people to adhere to the rules and often times when I refused to break or bend the rules. The person uses their "perception" of how the issue was handled to act as if I had done something that had not done to get me in trouble. 

That being said, how does one act when a harmless act, maybe even an act of kindness is perceived incorrectly?


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Shine said:


> ....... That being said, how does one act when a harmless act, maybe even an act of kindness is perceived incorrectly?


It might seem correct to you but if other people perceive it as being an incorrect act for them then consider it a lesson learned and don't repeat that act to them again.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Fennick said:


> It might seem correct to you but if other people perceive it as being an incorrect act for them then consider it a lesson learned and don't repeat that act to them again.


Fair enough, but it sure is debilitating when something was offered in a kind fashion and then it is received in a manner that punishes one for the offer...


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

I don't usually discuss my views on this, but I think *roadless* is genuine in her quest for discussion. I apologize for the length of my post, but it is a fundamental question, deserving of a considered answer. 

When I was a kid, my parents wanted to ensure I received broad religious instruction. They weren&#8217;t sure what it should consist of, however. They did not wish to imprint their own beliefs on us, felt that every human being was entitled to decide for themselves. So they chose to expose my siblings and me to as many different religions as possible. Every week, we were taken to participate in and learn about a different religion. We attended LDS, Catholic, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Protestant, Unitarian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, UCC, Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Baptist services&#8230; I could go on and on. Participated in them all and more, learned as much as I could. One thing is sure. It taught me to be tolerant. They&#8217;re all people.

The first thing I observed was each ritual/service was culturally very interesting and different. 

The second thing I observed was&#8230; they can&#8217;t all be right. 

The third thing I observed was that different religions tend to spring up exclusively in different cultures &#8211; meaning somehow the Hindus didn&#8217;t get the same message as the Catholics did. And I wondered why, if God was supposed to be so all-knowing and all powerful, He couldn&#8217;t manage to spread His word a little more consistently around the world.

It didn&#8217;t take long to work out that most religious people take the religion of their families and communities. In other words, religion is taught. Catholics smile to themselves at the silliness of the beliefs of, say, Mormons &#8211; and never examine how nutty their own religious stories sound to people who weren&#8217;t raised in their faith.

I read the Bible. I read the Qur&#8217;an. I read the Book of Mormon (I was raised in Utah). My first question in reading each was, how do we know it&#8217;s true? They&#8217;re just books. I&#8217;ve read thousands of books. What imbues any of these with more &#8220;truth&#8221; than any other? Why is the Bible more &#8220;true&#8221; than, say, Homer&#8217;s Iliad? No one has ever answered that question in a satisfactory way to me. The reality is, the &#8220;logic&#8221; is entirely circular: The Bible is true because God told me so&#8230; in the Bible.

Religious people often use their faith as a way of distinguishing themselves as &#8220;special,&#8221; &#8220;chosen&#8221; or otherwise &#8220;better&#8221; than other people. They use it to engage in exclusionary practices and shunning of those who think in ways different to themselves. Many religions have used their beliefs as justification to kill, maim, abuse or otherwise oppress millions of others. Catholics have protected child-molesting priests for decades and felt justified to do so in order to protect the &#8220;integrity&#8221; of their church. Some religions encourage belief in an afterlife to such an extent that their adherents pretty much ignore the life they&#8217;re living now and the world in which they live it, as if they&#8217;re merely in God&#8217;s waiting room and nothing that happens in the here and now is of any consequence. Some believe they can be &#8220;forgiven&#8221; for anything, basically eliminating personal accountability for their actions. I see none of these things as good or admirable.

Recently, a couple of young fellows took a Bible and hid its cover under what looked like the cover of the Qur&#8217;an. They took to the street and read out verses from the book to random people they encountered, allowed them to make their own assumptions about what book it was. Then they listened to the responses. I can&#8217;t post the actual video here because there is one word expressed by a participant that exceeds HT&#8217;s limits, but you&#8217;ll observe something interesting if you take the 3+ minutes to go watch. . It is enlightening. (To break the link for this post, I added a period between 'you' and 'tube.' Just delete the period after you copy and paste and the link will work.)

https://www.you.tube.com/watch?v=zEnWw_lH4tQ

Many people have tried to argue to me that morality springs from religion. My personal experience is, this is far from true. I know many, many non-religious people who live good, moral and responsible lives without need of any religious instruction whatsoever. And I observe some religious people excuse the most horrendous behaviors under the banner of their faith. I hasten to add that I know many religious folks whom I admire very much. They live their faith and don&#8217;t try to bludgeon others with it who think in different ways. I try hard to do the same &#8211; but if asked, I will answer honestly and perhaps even at length, depending on the level of interest of the other party.

One of the things that has always troubled me about religion is, it starts with a conclusion and then tries to build all &#8220;evidence&#8221; to support that conclusion.  The conclusion is that there is a god. Evidence-based belief isn&#8217;t like that. It goes where the evidence leads, no matter what the destination. There is no destination. When the evidence isn&#8217;t borne out by reproducible, falsifiable testing, it goes in another direction&#8230; for as long as there are questions to be answered.

Gods have been with us forever, and most humans alive today find it quaint to recall beliefs in gods long ago shown to be mythical. Thor, Norse god of thunder. Cocidius, Celtic god of war. Dionysus, Greek god of wine, parties and festivals. No one believes in those silly old guys anymore.

How is the god currently believed in by Christians, or the god believed in by Muslims, or the god believed in by Mormons, any different to historic gods of Norwegians, Celts or Greeks? To me, they are not. Interesting as cultural myths, nothing more. Accordingly, faith-based belief eludes me completely and I am very comfortable with that. I find it easy to disregard.

Some people of faith seem to have a misguided notion that non-believers are &#8220;missing&#8221; something, that we&#8217;re unable to feel the wonder and enormity of the universe around us. Nothing could be further from reality. For myself, I feel all of those things. But I don&#8217;t then conclude, &#8220;because God.&#8221; I want to know the truth &#8211; not what I hope or wish is true. The only &#8220;belief&#8221; system that makes sense to me as I grow in my knowledge and understandings, the only one that has withstood greater and more intense scrutiny is evidence-based belief.

Every truly notable achievement we have accomplished as a species is because of evidence-based belief and following where evidence leads. Everything we know about the universe in which we live, everything we know about particles, gravity, black holes, the nature of space/time, every medical breakthrough, every incredible structure or other engineering achievement, our knowledge about the physical makeup of planets, stars, galaxies, the ability to see to the very depths of our oceans &#8211; in other words, how the physical universe around us actually works &#8211; is due to strict adherence to the scientific method, meaning evidence-based belief. I&#8217;m pretty astonished by it all. Personally, I find religion to be a rather constraining framework for the jaw-dropping reality of the universe we inhabit.

Stephen Hawking said sometime in the past several years that if one understands the math, it has already been proved that the entire universe really can spring from nothing &#8211; meaning no god required. If anyone ever had a reason to find a god or believe in an afterlife, I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s Stephen Hawking. But no. Again, it appears to be only wishful thinking on the part of many. It&#8217;s a human characteristic, to want explanations for everything. It&#8217;s well known we&#8217;ll make them up in the absence of true understanding. A cursory review of human history demonstrates this in an ample way.

I don&#8217;t need answers to everything. I don&#8217;t need an afterlife. The words, &#8220;I don&#8217;t know,&#8221; have a permanent home in my psyche. It&#8217;s more important to me to mindfully live the life I have than care about what happens after I die.

All this said, none of us has a leg up on anyone else about what is &#8220;true&#8221; after we die. I can make an argument that our propensity to believe in gods is as much an evolutionary response to our self-awareness of mortality &#8211; unique to our species, best we can discern &#8211; as someone else can tell me all about heaven and hell. But no one really knows. To that extent, we are all on a level playing field, and I afford respect to others who have reached different conclusions than mine. I draw the line when someone tries to impose those beliefs on me and make me live my life as if their conclusions are true.

TLDR: No.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

Wow....thank you Raeven....and all you others who took the time to share your thoughts. .....I have much to consider.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation "
Herbert Spencer

I like this quote.......it helps me to check things out with an open mind.
Thanks again.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

roadless said:


> Wow....thank you Raeven....and all you others who took the time to share your thoughts. .....I have much to consider.
> 
> "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation "
> Herbert Spencer
> ...


I like your quote. I will find it useful, also. Thanks for sharing it.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

There is a part of me that yearns for the conviction that people seem to have in their belief or non belief of God.
I simply don't know.

The journey continues......


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

The yearning is part of our nature. It is stronger in some then others but we all have it. It's like a compass, it will take you where you have to be.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> The yearning is part of our nature. It is stronger in some then others but we all have it. It's like a compass, it will take you where you have to be.


I agree but is it human nature or divinely inspired. ...therein lies the dilemma :shrug:


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

The examples I gave were for the purpose of disagreeing with the approach of using feelings as guidepost. Not scientific or logical. I still stand by my advice of in any situation it is best if we look/search for the truth. I think this applies to marriage, health, politics, contracts and also whether we humans are the top of the heap or whether there is a God and what is our relationship with Him. I use the male pronoun more out of tradition because I believe God is a spirit and gender neutral. Jesus however was a man and with the culture and time period that makes perfect sense to me.

Now everyone have a "Merry Christmas"! :thumb:


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Fascinating discussion. Thanks raven for that very good reply. Normally I'd post something poetic and convoluted from my mind, but I'm very tired right now. Thus, I am relegated to merely expressing appreciation for what has already been stated.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

JJ Grandits said:


> I heard a sermon once about the internal and the external spirit of God. Could the extreme negative attacks by those with no faith simply be a defense against the guilt they feel for ignoring Gods internal spirit? They know that something is wrong, yet they are so self centered that they refuse to believe it is something in them. Therefore they attack what causes their guilt.


I'm pretty comfortable with my own beliefs and won't share them with anyone unless directly asked and even then, I will share only a brief comment because I believe that faith is an incredibly personal thing. 

I have enjoyed this thread but I get a great deal of pleasure from hearing what brings others pleasure and comfort but I have a feeling that if more people spent less time telling someone else how wrong they are about their own personal beliefs, less people would lash out.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Sometimes I am not as eloquent as I wish. It is not that I want to point out people are wrong. I want them to experience the possibilities.

If at times I remind you of something that rhymes with the words "Brass Pole", know that my intentions are good, but this human thing sometimes really screws me up.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

No insult intended to anyone. But I always answer questions like this the same way. My belief is my belief and I keep it to myself. I also believe others should too unless directly asked and it is their decision if they wish to share or not.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Not with a 10 foot pole... :nono:


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

The main problem is that it assumes all other religions are incorrect, and that morality only stems from religion. In general, this is historically true. Without God, where is our moral compass? Do we just manufacture it ourselves, without any help? That's a question that can bug everyone until the end of time. My reconciliation is to believe that morality can, and does, come from other sources.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

The problem with having a personal relationship with God is that it is personal.
If you tell someone they think you are preaching. It is like winning the lottery and keeping your mouth shut.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> The problem with having a personal relationship with God is that it is personal.
> If you tell someone they think you are preaching. It is like winning the lottery and keeping your mouth shut.


No one has a problem with your relationship with your god. It is when you judge others lives because they don't have a relationship with your god that people,e get upset.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

I was never fond of blanket statements about any group, positive or negative.
All Christians....
All Atheists....
All Muslims. ....
All Woman....
All Men....
All Democrats. ...
All Republicans. ...
How can the incredibly unique people we are possibly fit so snugly into a particular category?
For me, they don't.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

A truth can remain accurate but when and how it is presented can determine whether it is helpful or detrimental to person/s involved. 

To goad or purposely put someone on the offensive seems somewhat counter productive. That is unless the goal is an altercation.

When someone says "if you don't denounce someone's statement then you are endorsing the statement" is an attempt to control the words or opinions of another. It is an attitude that smacks of the dreaded pc. Doesn't matter if the proponent is right or left or Christian or atheist in my way of thinking.


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## Mrs. Thankful (Dec 4, 2013)

Jesus would NEVER treat people the way some "Christians" are treating others. Mind you....

Romans 11:19-22 ESV

Then you will say, âBranches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.â That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. *So do not become proud, but fear.* For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but *God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.*


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

JJ Grandits said:


> The problem with having a personal relationship with God is that it is personal.
> If you tell someone they think you are preaching.* It is like winning the lottery and keeping your mouth shut.*


_
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Mat 5:14-16_


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

JJ Grandits said:


> The problem with having a personal relationship with God is that it is personal.
> If you tell someone they think you are preaching. It is like winning the lottery and keeping your mouth shut.


There is nothing wrong with you telling us how wonderful your relationship is with your God. All of us were asked to share our personal experiences and that's what most of us did. Your first post was great for the first half and then insulting for the second half:



JJ Grandits said:


> *Of course I believe in God. We talk each and everyday. I spoke with him this morning. I can not imagine what it would be like to not believe in God. It is a force and a flavor to everything in my life. God is the sole cause and purpose of my existence.* I truly feel sorry for those who claim to have no faith. To live in a pointless, black and white world full of nothing but yourself. A spiritual desert. It is like being stone cold deaf, surrounded by a symphony, and denying the music everyone else hears. Seriously, no sarcasm, I pity them.


The bolded part is awesome and I am glad it makes you so happy and makes your life so worthwhile. But the second half is not reality for me. I do not live in a pointless black and white world full of nothing but myself. I walk outside and hear the same symphony you do I just happen to believe in a different composer. 

Think about how you would feel if I said I pity you for believing in God and missing the reality all around you. It definitely won't spark a positive conversation or an interest in what you see will it?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Agriculture said:


> .
> 
> To those religious folks who complain that nonbelievers make fun of them, this is why. The collective you can't go around calling us depraved and then not expect us to shoot back. To the individual you who might not be the one using that particular quote, your lack of criticism for your fellow believer for using that tactic is implied support, so you all get lumped in the same group. I guess that it must be hard trying to juggle the conflict and not admit that something in that book is wrong, because then you're opening yourself up to question that if some of it can be wrong why can't the rest of it?


Excellent post. Thank you.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MDKatie said:


> Thank you for yet again proving why I am happy I do not believe in any god. Why would I want to believe in someone so spiteful? That a person being a good, kind, moral person is not enough, and if that person doesn't say he believes in god, that god will then let satan have him or not let him get into heaven. Sounds like a mean, spiteful person to me. If all god cared about was a person being a good person and kind to his fellow man, then it shouldn't matter, right? Just the term "God fearing" is enough to turn me off from the whole thing. Why use fear as a motivator?


Another excellent post. Thank you.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

MDKatie said:


> Thank you for yet again proving why I am happy I do not believe in any god. Why would I want to believe in someone so spiteful? That a person being a good, kind, moral person is not enough, and if that person doesn't say he believes in god, that god will then let satan have him or not let him get into heaven. Sounds like a mean, spiteful person to me. If all god cared about was a person being a good person and kind to his fellow man, then it shouldn't matter, right? Just the term "God fearing" is enough to turn me off from the whole thing. Why use fear as a motivator?


'Moral' is a relative term. Clearly, not everyone agrees on what constitutes morality these days or which actions are moral and which are not. Moral, by whose definition?


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## deb_rn (Apr 16, 2010)

I grew up Catholic and 2.5 yrs ago the veil was lifted from my eyes.... on Easter Saturday, no less! Anyone that has had this happen as an adult can REALLY appreciate how you just can't understand it until the Holy Spirit gives you discernment. I now understand things so clearly, that it's hard to understand how I could have missed it before! I am thankful every day for my salvation! We were given free will because HE wanted us to WANT HIM. We are given every opportunity to choose HIM. HE wishes none to be lost, but that free will allows everyone the choice.

Debbie


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

In answer to the original question, yes I beleive in God. Religion? not so much.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Mods would like to see this remain open but it is a sensitive subject so please treat each others respect.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Txsteader said:


> 'Moral' is a relative term. Clearly, not everyone agrees on what constitutes morality these days or which actions are moral and which are not. Moral, by whose definition?


Morality is not hard to define, and I don't need someone telling me what morality is. It's a simple concept...treat others how you would like to be treated. I think that pretty much covers any possible scenario.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

It is possible for people like me to theorize about the very thing that drives people's moral decisions. That is merely because I can distance myself from the equation. If someone were to tell me I could not be a spiritual person, instead I had to conform to the new national religion of Scientology, as an example, it would feel like a massive breach of my humanity. Similarly, yelping at an individual because one believes their beliefs to be superior, is the best way to create an enflamed discussion. 
The reason for this is, I postulate, quite simple. Each religion is that person's Truth. There are infinite combinations of morally acceptable behaviors that can pattern this Truth. The Truth for the Christian is that God will protect them. The Truth for the agnostic is ambivalence. And so on and so forth. Only religions that are socially damaging are incorrect.
Therefore my conclusion is that the highest order is to realize that what you believe is best for you, but the instant we believe it is best for everyone; is when we breach the line and cause emotional strife for another person.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

MDKatie said:


> Morality is not hard to define, and* I don't need someone telling me what morality is. It's a simple concept...treat others how you would like to be treated.* I think that pretty much covers any possible scenario.


But Someone Did tell us that
_
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets._ - Matthew 7:12


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> But Someone Did tell us that
> _
> Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets._ - Matthew 7:12


Please do not attempt to co-opt the Golden Rule as a concept solely attributable to Christianity. It was around for long before that. The first verifiable reference to the concept can be dated to more than 2,000 years before Christ.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

There are plenty of references contained in the above link that will bear this out.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

35 deleted posts - is that a record?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Heritagefarm said:


> 35 deleted posts - is that a record?


I don't think so but as a rule, mods shut down threads after a cleanup or two but we're trying to keep this one open and civil.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

I am of roughly the same belief........In answer to the original question, yes I believe in God. Religion? not so much. To which I would add, that I strongly doubt most (but not all) of the Holy Bible.



Yvonne's hubby said:


> In answer to the original question, yes I believe in God. Religion? not so much.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

I left my Church due to a number of reasons but one of the primary reasons was that the writings that I am linking to is more how I understand the relationship between man and his Creator should be. The churches that I have gone too seem to be reliant upon the government to one degree or another, none truly standing only in His light, hope you enjoy...

http://presys.com/~ekklesia/bvb.htm

"One exemption is by the grace of the government of men. The other exemption is by the grace of Jesus Christ."

*Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? * (2Co 6:14)

P.S. - Forerunner is the one who provided the link originally and I was just dumb founded that there were writings on this particular viewpoint...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Txsteader said:


> 'Moral' is a relative term. Clearly, not everyone agrees on what constitutes morality these days or which actions are moral and which are not. Moral,* by whose definition*?


By your own, and only for yourself.
You don't get to dictate to others.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

As I mentioned I have always been a searcher.....and in my quest I have checked out various religions .......none seemed to fit. 
That is why my questions were about God, or Great Spirit....not religion

I appreciate all of your viewpoints and am glad this thread is still open!
Thanks.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Raeven said:


> Please do not attempt to co-opt the Golden Rule as a concept solely attributable to Christianity. It was around for long before that. The first verifiable reference to the concept can be dated to more than 2,000 years before Christ.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
> 
> There are plenty of references contained in the above link that will bear this out.


Got right riled there, didn't you?
I replied to someone who said they didn't need any directive to be moral. We have that directive, already...it's no man's original thought. Your guidance may rest on Wikipedia....all fine and good. Mine rests in God, the only One who displayed this rule in perfection.


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## wkndwrnch (Oct 7, 2012)

Yes I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, He is the head of my life! We talk daily and my wife has a relationship with Christ also. Traditional religion dos not satisfy the same as a personal relationship with Christ. I am going to my fathers memorial service next week and it will be a celebration of Christian life, because I know where where my father is!


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> Got right riled there, didn't you?
> I replied to someone who said they didn't need any directive to be moral. We have that directive, already...it's no man's original thought. Your guidance may rest on Wikipedia....all fine and good. Mine rests in God, the only One who displayed this rule in perfection.


A little different way to look at it is that since so many cultures came to the same conclusion it's really every thinking man's original thought. Unless you are a sociopath treating other people the way you want to be treated is just the obvious best answer.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

wkndwrnch said:


> Yes I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, He is the head of my life! We talk daily and my wife has a relationship with Christ also. Traditional religion dos not satisfy the same as a personal relationship with Christ. I am going to my fathers memorial service next week and it will be a celebration of Christian life, because I know where where my father is!


*
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight)
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. - 2Co 5:6-8*


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Patchouli said:


> A little different way to look at it is that since so many cultures came to the same conclusion it's really every thinking man's original thought. Unless you are a sociopath treating other people the way you want to be treated is just the obvious best answer.


To me, it's a mighty big coincidence if far flung cultures all over time and distance arrived at this conclusion through human pondering. The whole of human history doesn't even really reflect much of that principal in practice. It doesn't take a sociopath to act on treating others as They have been treated. That is what we can mostly witness people doing and what comes naturally. I would say the inspiration for a thought as revolutionary as treating others the way you Wish to be treated...not as they have treated you, had a common first cause and He is timeless.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> Got right riled there, didn't you?
> I replied to someone who said they didn't need any directive to be moral. We have that directive, already...it's no man's original thought. Your guidance may rest on Wikipedia....all fine and good. Mine rests in God, the only One who displayed this rule in perfection.


No, not riled. Just keeping the record straight. I don't really understand why you have a need to characterize my response in that way, or in any way whatsoever. But no worries.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Raeven said:


> No, not riled. Just keeping the record straight. I don't really understand why you have a need to characterize my response in that way, or in any way whatsoever. But no worries.


It was just that the "please do not attempt to..." came off as a little bit riled.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Woolieface said:


> It was just that the "please do not attempt to..." came off as a little bit riled.


I thought it sounded courteous.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

basketti said:


> I thought it sounded courteous.


It was. It's the answer to the post that wasn't courteous.

"The warrior that trusts his path doesn't need to prove the other way is wrong." Paulo Coelho


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> To me, it's a mighty big coincidence if far flung cultures all over time and distance arrived at this conclusion through human pondering. The whole of human history doesn't even really reflect much of that principal in practice. It doesn't take a sociopath to act on treating others as They have been treated. That is what we can mostly witness people doing and what comes naturally. I would say the inspiration for a thought as revolutionary as treating others the way you Wish to be treated...not as they have treated you, had a common first cause and He is timeless.


It's so simple I don't see why everyone wouldn't come to it by logic alone. Even a very young child can understand it as proper social behavior. There are plenty of things that we do that make perfect sense strictly from a survival perspective. 

Something we were just discussing yesterday is the spin we put on things to make them "moral". If you throw out scratch feed you have probably seen your rooster run up and cluck to his hens to get them to eat the food. He doesn't eat until they are all there and eating and he watches over them. Does that mean he is a gentleman? Is there a religious book for chickens to give them morals? Of course not. 

We can see the beginnings of human morals in animals. And they all revolve around survival of the species. If that rooster dies of starvation it doesn't matter. Every one of his hens will lay fertile eggs from his sperm for weeks after. He doesn't matter and so for his species to survive he finds food and protects his hens and he is somewhat disposable. 

Humans are the only animals that don't just live morally by instinct. We will actually trample what is best for our species and cheerfully destroy it out of selfishness. We have to be taught morals and have them enshrined in Holy Books and as commands from Gods in order to do what is best for our species. How bizarre is that?


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

Me like that, Me like that a big bunch...........:bow:



Irish Pixie said:


> "The warrior that trusts his path doesn't need to prove the other way is wrong." Paulo Coelho


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

roadless said:


> .....or a Great Spirit, Higher Power.....whatever term you use.
> 
> If so, how does it manifest in your daily living?
> If not, why not?


I would like to be able to emphatically say yes I believe, but I can't. 

What is weird is that for the last 35 years, at some point in the day, (usually in the am) I have a quiet time and read something inspirational.( sometimes religious, sometimes not ) and try to apply those words to my life that day.

This time was especially important throughout the painful chaos of my marriage ending and all the changes but it is a habit that I have done even in smooth times.

When I can widen my view of life and just trust.... (in God?, in the natural flow of life? beats me!!) I am more grateful and fully present in my day.


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## WildernesFamily (Mar 11, 2006)

roadless said:


> I would like to be able to emphatically say yes I believe, but I can't.
> 
> What is weird is that for the last 35 years, at some point in the day, (usually in the am) I have a quiet time and read something inspirational.( sometimes religious, sometimes not ) and try to apply those words to my life that day.
> 
> ...


roadless, your longing fills me with compassion for you. Seriously, if I could reach through this screen and give you a big old hug I would. If it is indeed God you are hearing calling, I pray that you will come to know that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I did want to add this, because I read it last night and it made me think of you and this thread. I don't know who originally penned it.

*I am a Christian*

When I say that "I am a Christian," I am not shouting that "I am clean living." I'm whispering "I was lost, but now I'm found and forgiven."
When I say "I am a Christian," I don't speak this with pride. I'm confessing that I stumble and need Christ to be my guide.
When I say "I am a Christian," I'm not trying to be strong. I'm professing that I'm weak and need His strength to carry on.
When I say "I am a Christian," I'm not bragging of success. I'm admitting I have failed and need God to clean my mess.
When I say "I am a Christian," I'm not claiming to be perfect. My flaws are far too visible, but God believes I am worth it.
When I say "I am a Christian," I still feel the sting of pain. I have my share of heartaches, so I call upon His name.
When I say "I am a Christian," I'm not holier than thou. I'm just a simple sinner who received God's good grace, somehow!

Merry Christmas to you


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

WildernesFamily said:


> roadless, your longing fills me with compassion for you. Seriously, if I could reach through this screen and give you a big old hug I would. If it is indeed God you are hearing calling, I pray that you will come to know that beyond a shadow of a doubt.
> 
> I did want to add this, because I read it last night and it made me think of you and this thread. I don't know who originally penned it.
> 
> ...


i wish more Christians understood this.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Patchouli said:


> It's so simple I don't see why everyone wouldn't come to it by logic alone. Even a very young child can understand it as proper social behavior. There are plenty of things that we do that make perfect sense strictly from a survival perspective.
> 
> Something we were just discussing yesterday is the spin we put on things to make them "moral". If you throw out scratch feed you have probably seen your rooster run up and cluck to his hens to get them to eat the food. He doesn't eat until they are all there and eating and he watches over them. Does that mean he is a gentleman? Is there a religious book for chickens to give them morals? Of course not.
> 
> ...


You would think that if being a nice person were so advantageous to survival there would be so many fewer jerks in the world. 

I've actually never seen a child decide to be selfless without instruction. In fact, pretty few adults achieve it regularly. What a peaceful world it would be if it were so.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

I can certainly admit to having flaws and stumbling and heartache.
The past 5 years have been full of loss and confusion.

Yet, every single day, without fail, I have received what I needed to get by, often in spite of myself! : )
I am unable to say that it is God working in my life....yet the practical part of me believes ' the stars aligned 'far to often to be mere happenstance.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

No, it is not the practical part of you but the desire to understand why...


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> You would think that if being a nice person were so advantageous to survival there would be so many fewer jerks in the world.
> 
> I've actually never seen a child decide to be selfless without instruction. In fact, pretty few adults achieve it regularly. What a peaceful world it would be if it were so.


Survival is pretty easy these days so niceness is not so required.  So far as children I said a young child can understand it, as in when you explain it to them they can grasp the idea. 

I agree wholeheartedly that the world would be a better place if we were all selfless.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> Survival is pretty easy these days so niceness is not so required.  So far as children I said a young child can understand it, as in when you explain it to them they can grasp the idea.
> 
> I agree wholeheartedly that the world would be a better place if we were all selfless.


I would also agree that if a frog had wings.... But they don't, and people aren't selfless either. I prefer to deal with reality, not wishes and ifs.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

WildernesFamily said:


> roadless, your longing fills me with compassion for you. Seriously, if I could reach through this screen and give you a big old hug I would. If it is indeed God you are hearing calling, I pray that you will come to know that beyond a shadow of a doubt.
> 
> I did want to add this, because I read it last night and it made me think of you and this thread. I don't know who originally penned it.
> 
> ...


Not picking on you personally WF but this is one of the fundamental reasons I don't follow this path anymore. It starts off with such a negative message, bashing the person down so they feel the need to be "saved". It's so disheartening to hear really good people talk about themselves as lost, unworthy, worthless, weak, sinful and saying they can only get through life with the help of some supernatural being. I do try to be happy with other people's spiritual path but when it starts out so negatively it hurts my heart to see it. 

I'm not saying I"m perfect, not by a long shot, and I definitely have my flaws but I'm a pretty good person and with the help of friends and family we all get along through life in good shape, learning from our mistakes and growing to be better people as we go. We are not so bad that we deserve everlasting torment in some fiery hell.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

I like me.
I know my heart and intentions in my daily living.

A fiery hell or a blissful heaven as an actual place seems out there to me, but again that topic seems more of religion than my intent in starting this post. 

What I have experienced is a sort of connectedness, a sense of being a part of an awe inspiring whole...that seems to transcend things seen.....this force is what I try to tap into and get peace from.....

I guess what I was asking is, is this what others call having a relationship with God? 
I suppose from what already has been written here there are as many answers as people!
Some may call this a purely human experience, or spirituality. ...or they may wonder what I have been smoking! 
Anyway, as always, I appreciate what ya'll have to say.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

roadless said:


> I like me.
> I know my heart and intentions in my daily living.
> 
> A fiery hell or a blissful heaven as an actual place seems out there to me, but again that topic seems more of religion than my intent in starting this post.
> ...


Having a relationship with God, like having a relationship with anyone, is getting to know Him. Getting to know who He is, what He wants for you, how He wants to interact with you in your life. If a relationship isn't personal, it's not a relationship...we know that in our daily dealings with other people...God wants to be the closest relationship you've got. That's often a big missing factor in many people's "faith", so I'd guess that's where you will find the dogmatic, dead faith of "religion". But removing religiosity from the equation surely doesn't mean He had nothing to say to us and nothing He wanted us to know. Seek and you will find.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Truckinguy said:


> Not picking on you personally WF but this is one of the fundamental reasons I don't follow this path anymore. It starts off with such a negative message, bashing the person down so they feel the need to be "saved". It's so disheartening to hear really good people talk about themselves as lost, unworthy, worthless, weak, sinful and saying they can only get through life with the help of some supernatural being. I do try to be happy with other people's spiritual path but when it starts out so negatively it hurts my heart to see it.
> 
> I'm not saying I"m perfect, not by a long shot, and I definitely have my flaws but I'm a pretty good person and with the help of friends and family we all get along through life in good shape, learning from our mistakes and growing to be better people as we go. We are not so bad that we deserve everlasting torment in some fiery hell.


This reminds me of the twelve step programs that want you to admit you're powerless and need a higher power to stop your demons.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

oneraddad said:


> This reminds me of the twelve step programs that want you to admit you're powerless and need a higher power to stop your demons.


Interesting you should say that....I haven't had a drink since 1980 and do define myself as a sober alcoholic ( among many other things) ; )

I do know that when I drank it was more powerful than me. I am a strong willed person and I couldn't understand why, when I was absolutely determined to just have a couple, I would end up drunk, not every time but more often than not. 
I can't prove it but I believe my body chemistry is different from social drinkers.....who knows.......it is just more practical for me not to drink at all.......but that is a whole different topic......yikes I derailed my own thread!


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

When they said I was powerless and I needed to take it a day at a time, I said "ya right".

I quit that day, over ten years ago and haven't looked back. I always thought I was weak and couldn't quit so no use to even try. After drinking I stopped smoking and started hiking. Next was the TV, coffee, carbs, etc... That's when I decided, I need to be just a little out of control to be who I am. I did prove I had a lot of control over being who ever I wanted to be though. TV's back on and I have my morning coffee, I try to limit my carbs but I just love bread and cookies. But no drinking, drugs or smoking.... Except my medical marijuana which I vape.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

oneraddad said:


> When they said I was powerless and I needed to take it a day at a time, I said "ya right".
> 
> I quit that day, over ten years ago and haven't looked back. I always thought I was weak and couldn't quit so no use to even try. After drinking I stopped smoking and started hiking. Next was the TV, coffee, carbs, etc... That's when I decided, I need to be just a little out of control to be who I am. I did prove I had a lot of control over being who ever I wanted to be though. TV's back on and I have my morning coffee, I try to limit my carbs but I just love bread and cookies. But no drinking, drugs or smoking.... Except my medical marijuana which I vape.


Off topic here, but I don't know mm could be vaped that is great!


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I would also agree that if a frog had wings.... But they don't, and people aren't selfless either. I prefer to deal with reality, not wishes and ifs.


I don't know what that has to do with the discussion of the origin of the Golden Rule or morality in general?


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

roadless said:


> I like me.
> I know my heart and intentions in my daily living.
> 
> A fiery hell or a blissful heaven as an actual place seems out there to me, but again that topic seems more of religion than my intent in starting this post.
> ...


I would say that comes from being a part of the collective unconscious.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

oneraddad said:


> When they said I was powerless and I needed to take it a day at a time, I said "ya right".
> 
> I quit that day, over ten years ago and haven't looked back. I always thought I was weak and couldn't quit so no use to even try. After drinking I stopped smoking and started hiking. Next was the TV, coffee, carbs, etc... That's when I decided, I need to be just a little out of control to be who I am. I did prove I had a lot of control over being who ever I wanted to be though. TV's back on and I have my morning coffee, I try to limit my carbs but I just love bread and cookies. But no drinking, drugs or smoking.... Except my medical marijuana which I vape.


Awesome......no drinking or drugs for me either. ..but don't mess with my coffee !
I would really like to break free from smoking cigs., they are taking a toll....

I also believe that I have control over whoever I want to be too.....but I have no illusions about changing others.
That is why I don't typically get involved with some discussions here, I will give my opinion but just because something may be right for me doesn't mean it would fit for others.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Cigarettes taste terrible, hurt your throat, stink, are unhealthy and if used properly, will kill you. I saw the other day they were over 6 bucks a pack, so it's also a financial burden. There's nothing good about them, and it sucks to be controlled.

Everybody has the power to stop and they should do it today


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

oneraddad said:


> Cigarettes taste terrible, hurt your throat, stink, are unhealthy and if used properly, will kill you. I saw the other day they were over 6 bucks a pack, so it's also a financial burden. There's nothing good about them, and it sucks to be controlled.
> 
> *Everybody has the power to stop *and they should do it today


How nice of you to make statements about everyone's abilities. Some of us happen to enjoy the taste of a cigarette, as well as the aroma. The only cigarette I ever smoked that hurt my throat was a menthol I bummed from a freind once. Mine cost me a bit over a dollar a pack..... Well worth the forty, maybe fifty bucks a month just to aggravate non smokers! 
What everyone should quit doing is meddling in other folks affairs.... For their own good of course!


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> How nice of you to make statements about everyone's abilities. Some of us happen to enjoy the taste of a cigarette, as well as the aroma. The only cigarette I ever smoked that hurt my throat was a menthol I bummed from a freind once. Mine cost me a bit over a dollar a pack..... Well worth the forty, maybe fifty bucks a month just to aggravate non smokers!
> What everyone should quit doing is meddling in other folks affairs.... For their own good of course!



May I suggest you smoke twice as much then


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

It was easy for me to quit. I made the decision while staring at the ceiling of an ambulance. I recommend it to everyone.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

oneraddad said:


> May I suggest you smoke twice as much then


How about just letting others decide for themselves how much they wish to smoke, or eat, or drink?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Our government has decided that they will tax and regulate smokers into quitting. 

It's been quite a while since I've seen the price of tax exempt cigarettes but I doubt if they're much higher now and they were well under $5/pack but the average person is paying $12 - $15/pack and our new government has since banned all flavored tobacco products, including the wine dipped cigars and mentol cigarettes. 

The concept seems to be that young people start with the flavored tobaccos and they're trying to discourage new smokers but it was a 16 year old that told me I could go to the local 'pipe shop' and picked up any flavor drops that were originally made to change the flavor of pot


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Not sure why but my fav brand are tax exempt and sell for $11 bucks a carton... My Yvonne's are over $40. :shrug:


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Not sure why but my fav brand are tax exempt and sell for $11 bucks a carton... My Yvonne's are over $40. :shrug:



The only tax exempt cigarettes in Canada require a treaty card.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wr said:


> Our government has decided that they will tax and regulate smokers into quitting.
> 
> It's been quite a while since I've seen the price of tax exempt cigarettes but I doubt if they're much higher now and they were well under $5/pack but the average person is paying $12 - $15/pack and our new government has since banned all flavored tobacco products, including the wine dipped cigars and mentol cigarettes.
> 
> The concept seems to be that young people start with the flavored tobaccos and they're trying to discourage new smokers but it was a 16 year old that told me I could go to the local 'pipe shop' and picked up any flavor drops that were originally made to change the flavor of pot


NY did the same thing about 5 years ago, brand name smokes average $13.00 a pack.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

On the reservation near me they are $20 a carton, sometimes less. These are for "Native Brands".
The worst thing I ever did to myself was smoking. I tried many times to quit but couldn't. I was up to 2 1/2 packs a day and had a stroke. the part of my brain that was effected was the part that made me want to smoke. No desire, no cravings, no nothing. I just stopped. Weird huh?

God works in mysterious ways.

Some day I'll tell you how a crippling back injury was one of the best things that ever happened to me.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

God...yes...religion..No. Nor do i want to be part of any group that has a name. Personally I have had many experiences that are from God...there is no doubt about that. I am always leery when someone mentions their religion or church right off the bat..that you are now dealing with some type of superior human being? Found out that may be a good warning. All are flawed regardless of what appearance is kept up..not sure where this idea of being affiliated with any religion makes you better than someone that does not. I don't believe some go to heaven...and the rest will burn in you know where. I like to read Proverbs...you get a good summary of just how flawed you really are...but really just good reading of common sense and truth. We are all here on earth to help each other out in any way we can regardless of color, nationality, religion, no religion...whatever...it's not about you.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> i wish more Christians understood this.


I wish more non-Christians understood this.
:strongsad:


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Not sure why but my fav brand are tax exempt and sell for $11 bucks a carton... My Yvonne's are over $40. :shrug:


We have tax exempt cigarettes here?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Yep. I've been smoking them for several years now. They are called filtered cigars but the look and smoke just like cigarettes.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

I went to two different church gatherings yesterday and a 3 hour motorcycle ride......I found them all equally refreshing. ; )


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

I certainly believe and love God. But I do not believe in denominationalism. Jesus never labeled us as anything other than believers. To many churches hold to what makes them different rather than what makes them the same.


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