# BGA Needs Our Help to Save Their Pigs



## harvestmoonfarm (Nov 24, 2012)

Mark is being forced to make a decision. He is not allowed to have his hogs processed, and cannot sell them or transport them out of state. If he cannot find a way to feed them through the winter, he is going to have to shoot them and, as he says, "push them in a hole." If the Michigan State DNR wins, all farmers lose; we can't let this happen! I donated $10 this morning. Anyone else?

I've also contacted Purina and asked them to help.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3qZLMqvRAo"]www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3qZLMqvRAo[/ame] 

http://bakersgreenacres.com/ <-- go here and click on the "Donate" button on the right


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## CJBegins (Nov 20, 2009)

I feel for this guy's position but it isn't like he didn't know this was coming. He has a heck of a feed bill.


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## harvestmoonfarm (Nov 24, 2012)

He had no way of knowing they were going to block him from having his hogs processed. If Michigan gets away with this, other states will follow suit. PA is watching this case closely. Farmers have to stick together or there will be no more small family farms!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

This has been talked about several times already.
He had plenty of advance warning.
He chose to ignore all of the warnings and seems to be making pretty good money by asking people to help him.
It is beginning to look like a scam.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

He knew what was coming. On one hand he claims to not be a law breaker but he is clearly in violation of the law by keeping these pigs.

His argument that this is a fight to get rid of small family farms is fanciful.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

harvestmoonfarm said:


> He had no way of knowing they were going to block him from having his hogs processed. If Michigan gets away with this, other states will follow suit. PA is watching this case closely. Farmers have to stick together or there will be no more small family farms!


This is NOT about small farms it is about brining an invasive and very destructive species of pigs into Michigan. Ask our Southern brethren about the damage the Russiona Wild Boar has inflicted on them.


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## harvestmoonfarm (Nov 24, 2012)

If you read the description of the pigs the DNR wants outlawed, there are many breeds that fit the bill. In fact, my AGH have upright ears and curly tails They are a landrace breed, so how long before VA follows Michigan's lead and comes after my hogs? You people amaze me. Pennsylvania is following this case closely and WILL enact a similar law if Michigan wins. Do as you please, but I've donated, as have several other people. Mark served our country for 20 years in the military, and this is how our country repays him? Have you looked online at all the other people raising Mangalitsa hogs? Only difference is that they don't live in Michigan. The feds can and WILL come after anyone they please, at any time they please. It's despicable!


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## harvestmoonfarm (Nov 24, 2012)

pancho said:


> This has been talked about several times already.
> He had plenty of advance warning.
> He chose to ignore all of the warnings and seems to be making pretty good money by asking people to help him.
> It is beginning to look like a scam.


Would you give up your livelihood if the feds came in and demanded it, or would you do what Mark has done and put up a fight?


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

There has been MANY threads here on this. DNR are in the wrong. if the hogs aren't out then they are domesticated.
I wonder if he can donate the hog meat (killed on his own land) to raw pet feeding homes. maybe they can donate to the fund.
also why are his pig which are only % of old world hog classified as being wild? if you have a zonkey (zebra donkey cross) or a zorse (zebra horse) or beefalo it is classified as a domestic.


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## harvestmoonfarm (Nov 24, 2012)

Don't think it can happen to anyone, anywhere? This happened to a friend of ours who raises hogs, goats, sheep, etc., and only because the state decided it was for the "best!"
http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/d...cle_12502af4-f6a5-57a0-8e16-304828c88bb3.html


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

harvestmoonfarm said:


> If you read the description of the pigs the DNR wants outlawed, there are many breeds that fit the bill. In fact, my AGH have upright ears and curly tails They are a landrace breed, so how long before VA follows Michigan's lead and comes after my hogs? You people amaze me. Pennsylvania is following this case closely and WILL enact a similar law if Michigan wins. Do as you please, but I've donated, as have several other people. Mark served our country for 20 years in the military, and this is how our country repays him? Have you looked online at all the other people raising Mangalitsa hogs? Only difference is that they don't live in Michigan. The feds can and WILL come after anyone they please, at any time they please. It's despicable!


What has serving in the Military got to do with raising illegal wild hogs. 
Come on. We had a wild hog problem around here some years back with people raising them and hunting them. We shot and killed most and trapped a lot of them. They can sure mess up a honest pig farming operation. 
I will make no comment on Marks operation except it has been a long time getting rid of his illegal operation. 

Best,
Gerold.


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## harvestmoonfarm (Nov 24, 2012)

gerold said:


> What has serving in the Military got to do with raising illegal wild hogs.
> Come on. We had a wild hog problem around here some years back with people raising them and hunting them. We shot and killed most and trapped a lot of them. They can sure mess up a honest pig farming operation.
> I will make no comment on Marks operation except it has been a long time getting rid of his illegal operation.
> 
> ...



How is his operation "illegal?" Have any of you read the description the DNR has put on "feral hogs?" Can you not see that this is an attempt by "Big AG" to put small farms out of business? Or do you not have a problem with the Feds overstepping their boundaries? If this were happening to you and your family, you'd be the first to be screaming for help, but because it doesn't affect YOU, it doesn't matter, correct?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

harvestmoonfarm said:


> Would you give up your livelihood if the feds came in and demanded it, or would you do what Mark has done and put up a fight?


I would have been a little smarter at the first.
I would not have chosen that breed of hog to raise.
I would not expect others to pay for my fight either.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

harvestmoonfarm said:


> How is his operation "illegal?" Have any of you read the description the DNR has put on "feral hogs?" Can you not see that this is an attempt by "Big AG" to put small farms out of business? Or do you not have a problem with the Feds overstepping their boundaries? If this were happening to you and your family, you'd be the first to be screaming for help, but because it doesn't affect YOU, it doesn't matter, correct?


We have all read the description the DNR put out.
We have also seen pics of his operation.
We have seen where he has had plenty of time to get rid of the illegal hogs.
He chose to keep the hogs and fight.
We didn't.


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## harvestmoonfarm (Nov 24, 2012)

pancho said:


> I would have been a little smarter at the first.
> I would not have chosen that breed of hog to raise.
> I would not expect others to pay for my fight either.


Which is exactly what's wrong with our country - no one is willing to help someone else in times of need or stand beside them in battle against tyrants. Karma, my friend, Karma...


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

harvestmoonfarm said:


> How is his operation "illegal?" Have any of you read the description the DNR has put on "feral hogs?" Can you not see that this is an attempt by "Big AG" to put small farms out of business? Or do you not have a problem with the Feds overstepping their boundaries? If this were happening to you and your family, you'd be the first to be screaming for help, but because it doesn't affect YOU, it doesn't matter, correct?


I know what a illegal hog is. Maybe you don't. I have had a lot of cooperation from the ag dept. and also some big farm operators. I don't raise illegal hogs. Yes i obey the laws. Why should i back someone who creates a problem for honest pig farms and is not obeying the law and expects people to support him. Crazy.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

harvestmoonfarm said:


> Which is exactly what's wrong with our country - no one is willing to help someone else in times of need or stand beside them in battle against tyrants. Karma, my friend, Karma...


He put himself in the spot he is in.
He had plenty of time and plenty of warnings.
What is so important about this breed of hogs that he would put himself to so much trouble?

If he wanted to raise hogs there are many breeds he can choose from.
People are usually willing to help people when they have a good reason for what they are doing.
He doesn't have a good reason other than he wants to raise a certain breed of hogs.


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

Here we go again. The pigs were not illegal when he started raising them. He was given notice to get rid of or destroy his animals before the law went into effect. He chose to take them to court over the broad wording of what constitutes a feral hog. IMO, the law is too broadly worded. I agree with his fighting on that behalf. The ISO needs to be changed, reworded or voted on. They were able to slide this law in on the back of an ISO that was written for waterway traffic and pertained to fish. Not farm animals. The way it's worded now, almost all pigs fall under the ISO unless they are pink and hairless. I have been told by the DNR that they have no interest in my Mulefoot, but for how long? I have nothing legal in writing that says MF are exempt. If Mark goes away and is no longer a thorn in their paw, will they turn their eyes to MF? Or large black? There are no exemptions to this law. Nowhere is it written what does not constitute a feral hog.


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## harvestmoonfarm (Nov 24, 2012)

Maverick_mg said:


> Here we go again. The pigs were not illegal when he started raising them. He was given notice to get rid of or destroy his animals before the law went into effect. He chose to take them to court over the broad wording of what constitutes a feral hog. IMO, the law is too broadly worded. I agree with his fighting on that behalf. The ISO needs to be changed, reworded or voted on. They were able to slide this law in on the back of an ISO that was written for waterway traffic and pertained to fish. Not farm animals. The way it's worded now, almost all pigs fall under the ISO unless they are pink and hairless. I have been told by the DNR that they have no interest in my Mulefoot, but for how long? I have nothing legal in writing that says MF are exempt. If Mark goes away and is no longer a thorn in their paw, will they turn their eyes to MF? Or large black? There are no exemptions to this law. Nowhere is it written what does not constitute a feral hog.


I fear the same for American Guinea Hogs. They are, after all, a landrace breed, and survived for years with no human intervention. Are they going to be the next breed in the crosshairs of a tyrannical government?


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## harvestmoonfarm (Nov 24, 2012)

"What the Michigan DNR has done in its lapdog obedience to BigAg is nothing short of unconstitutional tyranny. The DNR is threatening to seize private property without due process of law, based upon its own BigAg-serving declaration that certain hog breeds are &#8220;invasive&#8221; and &#8220;feral,&#8221; despite being property treated and domesticated on family farms."

http://realfoodlaw.com/2012/04/21/f...using-bully-tactics-to-crush-the-competition/


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## cooper101 (Sep 13, 2010)

Is there any reliable claim of how many of his pigs escaped while he had them?


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## 4F FARM (Sep 28, 2008)

Michigan DNR is a bunch of thugs. Always were and always will be. Talk to the old timers in the UP they will tell you how the DNR "saved" Miners Beach.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

harvestmoonfarm said:


> How is his operation "illegal?" Have any of you read the description the DNR has put on "feral hogs?" Can you not see that this is an attempt by "Big AG" to put small farms out of business? Or do you not have a problem with the Feds overstepping their boundaries? If this were happening to you and your family, you'd be the first to be screaming for help, but because it doesn't affect YOU, it doesn't matter, correct?


Most of the ones that are against him are connected to "big ag"


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## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

I think Mark is correct in his efforts. 

Mark will be one of the Keynote Speakers at Nevada County's Sustainable Food and Farm Conference on January 19th and 20th, in Grass Valley, CA. 

More information can be found at: www.foodandfarmconference.com 

If you are on the West Coast, please come and support Mark. He will speak on Saturday and lead a Sunday workshop. You can have the chance to speak with him, and show your support for his efforts. Please PM me if you have any questions.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

I am sickened by those who actually support MI's DNR. They're nothing but a bunch of corporate toadies.

Mark is right in taking a stand. Those of you who say foolish things like "He knew ahead of time," are being intentionally unaware of the history of this situation, as well as what constitutes "illegal" in livestock. 

MI has decimated entire herds - healthy herds, not "feral" pigs - with no repercussions. Those of you who are all right with this will one day find that YOU are on the receiving end of the same kind of persecution for being an independent farmer. Shame on you.

"First they came for the cows..."


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Pony said:


> "First they came for the cows..."


 
They did not come for the cows.
They haven't even came for the hogs.
There is a law that says you can't raise certain breeds of hogs. This isn't the first time this has happened. Some places even have laws against certain breeds of dogs. Some places have laws against certain species of birds, snakes, geese, swans, etc.

Usually there is a reason for these laws. If you have seen the damage certain breeds of hogs can do you might think a little different.
Right now in Vicksburg, Ms. the military cemetery is being destroyed by wild hogs.


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

As far as them having aquired the hogs legally,federal court does not care.
Ohio just went through this with sb 310. Exotic animal owners took the state to federal court. The state wants to confiscate and make illegal animals that were legally purchased at one point. The lawsuit ruled against the owners.
The reason was that even though there was good argument and that there may be a violation of constitutional rights, there is a little known clause called "rational basis" . If the state has very little, and I mean very little cause of concern they can pretty much pass any ban bill they want.
There is no way the wild hog breeder will win this, but , it feels good to try.


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## harvestmoonfarm (Nov 24, 2012)

lasergrl said:


> As far as them having aquired the hogs legally,federal court does not care.
> Ohio just went through this with sb 310. Exotic animal owners took the state to federal court. The state wants to confiscate and make illegal animals that were legally purchased at one point. The lawsuit ruled against the owners.
> The reason was that even though there was good argument and that there may be a violation of constitutional rights, there is a little known clause called "rational basis" . If the state has very little, and I mean very little cause of concern they can pretty much pass any ban bill they want.
> There is no way the wild hog breeder will win this, but , it feels good to try.


Mangalitsas are not wild hogs. If you go by the description the DNR ISO is giving, ALL breeds of hogs are illegal except, of course, the big pink ones living on factory farms. Convenient, huh? :grumble:


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

pancho said:


> They did not come for the cows.
> They haven't even came for the hogs.
> There is a law that says you can't raise certain breeds of hogs. This isn't the first time this has happened. Some places even have laws against certain breeds of dogs. Some places have laws against certain species of birds, snakes, geese, swans, etc.
> 
> ...


Usually, the only "reason" for these laws is over-reaching, intrusive govt over-reacting and responding inappropriately.

And of course, there will always be toadies going along with the whole thing, thinking that they will buy themselves immunity from the un-Constitutional abuse of power.

You don't know of what you speak, and are now officially on my list of "Govt Toadies."


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

harvestmoonfarm said:


> Mangalitsas are not wild hogs. If you go by the description the DNR ISO is giving, ALL breeds of hogs are illegal except, of course, the big pink ones living on factory farms. Convenient, huh? :grumble:


I realize that but the state will use the guidlinesas they choose. Sometimes it doesnt matter what wording they have written, they will enforce as they choose.

As a comparison, it is clearly written that lynx are on the new ban list, bobcats are not on the list. Ohio has come out and said Bobcats are illegal now too because they look like lynx. This is how states workit seems. And even raising money and hiring a constitutional lawyer didnt help.

I have seen videos by that farmer and he has clearly stated that his pigs are mangalitsa and russian hybrids. Maybe Im thinking of a different farmer with mangalitsa.


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## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

Imagine the uproar if the MI DNR had labeled all cats that were seen or thought to be seen outdoors as feral and subject to immediate termination. That your cat of 10 years that wandered in your yard every day, but always came in to nap, eat, and sleep, suddenly in the span of 6 months was labeled an outlaw to be terminated on sight. And, now you are harboring this feral cat, and subject to ridiculous persecution until you terminate your family pet. Every animal rights group in the country would scream bloody murder, yet the feral cat population is a massive nuisance in every state and next to nothing is done about it. 

Here they are persecuting respectful, hard working farmers, for what was a feeble attempt to thwart a few gaming clubs that 'might' have a few pigs breach the fences. No one wants their profits walking off their property - including the game clubs. This is a horrible situation, and Mark Baker should be being heralded as an example of what is right in the small farm world - not as someone being squeezed out of business for pointing out the obvious.


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

For some unknown reason, I am still fascinated by the sheeple and the stuff they say. 

Oh well... to the OP, thanks for the thread. I had already seen it via another resource. I sure hope he makes it and wins in court.


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## pmondo (Oct 6, 2007)

God some of you really do worship big Government it sickening. until it's you they are after


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## cooper101 (Sep 13, 2010)

For all the experts on the history of this case, has there ever been a generally accepted number of his hogs that escaped from his farm?


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## harvestmoonfarm (Nov 24, 2012)

cooper101 said:


> For all the experts on the history of this case, has there ever been a generally accepted number of his hogs that escaped from his farm?


Have you ever had a hog escape? Would you stand there and watch it leave, or would you do everything in your power to go catch your money? There's no way Mark would stand idly by as his profits walked off his farm, and I can tell you from experience, my hogs go all over my farm - fenced in of course, but still a very large farm - and they all come home at supper time.


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## pmondo (Oct 6, 2007)

harvestmoonfarm said:


> Have you ever had a hog escape? Would you stand there and watch it leave, or would you do everything in your power to go catch your money? There's no way Mark would stand idly by as his profits walked off his farm, and I can tell you from experience, my hogs go all over my farm - fenced in of course, but still a very large farm - and they all come home at supper time.


now that's the truth no farmer is going to stand for that


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Pony said:


> Usually, the only "reason" for these laws is over-reaching, intrusive govt over-reacting and responding inappropriately.
> 
> And of course, there will always be toadies going along with the whole thing, thinking that they will buy themselves immunity from the un-Constitutional abuse of power.
> 
> You don't know of what you speak, and are now officially on my list of "Govt Toadies."


Guess I can put you on my list of those with little to no experience or knowledge about animals. People with actual experience and those who only read usually have different opinions.
Happy reading.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

DenMacII said:


> Imagine the uproar if the MI DNR had labeled all cats that were seen or thought to be seen outdoors as feral and subject to immediate termination. That your cat of 10 years that wandered in your yard every day, but always came in to nap, eat, and sleep, suddenly in the span of 6 months was labeled an outlaw to be terminated on sight. And, now you are harboring this feral cat, and subject to ridiculous persecution until you terminate your family pet. Every animal rights group in the country would scream bloody murder, yet the feral cat population is a massive nuisance in every state and next to nothing is done about it.


You are very wrong about animal rights groups screaming bloody murder.
Look at all of the laws passed conserning pit bulls. The people pushing it is the animals rights groups.


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## Maverick_mg (Mar 11, 2010)

cooper101 said:


> For all the experts on the history of this case, has there ever been a generally accepted number of his hogs that escaped from his farm?


There were never any reports of his animals escaping. He said in one interview that one pig got out one time and stood by the fence until he put it back in. It didn't really want out away from its buddies I guess. Lol


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## harvestmoonfarm (Nov 24, 2012)

Maverick_mg said:


> There were never any reports of his animals escaping. He said in one interview that one pig got out one time and stood by the fence until he put it back in. It didn't really want out away from its buddies I guess. Lol


Pigs are exceptionally smart, and they know where they get fed. If I'm not down in the barnyard before dark, mine go into their pen and put themselves to bed in their run-in. As soon as they hear me, they come running to be fed.


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## pmondo (Oct 6, 2007)

if you farm or homestead you really owe it to yourself to help mark in his fight. Today it's mark big gov is after tomorrow it will be us if they are not stopped


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

harvestmoonfarm said:


> Mangalitsas are not wild hogs. If you go by the description the DNR ISO is giving, ALL breeds of hogs are illegal except, of course, the big pink ones living on factory farms. Convenient, huh? :grumble:


The difference is that he is using wild sows, to get the litter size up and still keep his Mang fenotype. This is so he can sell more Mangs as pure. This is worse than just raising wild hogs. He is contaminating a gene pool so he can sell more hogs.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

blaineiac said:


> The difference is that he is using wild sows, to get the litter size up and still keep his Mang fenotype. This is so he can sell more Mangs as pure. This is worse than just raising wild hogs. He is contaminating a gene pool so he can sell more hogs.


Would you mind sharing your porcine breeding experience with the group, please?


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## blaineiac (Jan 10, 2010)

Pony said:


> Would you mind sharing your porcine breeding experience with the group, please?


I raised feeders for a few years. I have had registered Tamworths for the past 3 years. 

I'm not sure what this has to do with contaminating Heritage blood, or raising illegal stock.


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## harvestmoonfarm (Nov 24, 2012)

blaineiac said:


> I raised feeders for a few years. I have had registered Tamworths for the past 3 years.
> 
> I'm not sure what this has to do with contaminating Heritage blood, or raising illegal stock.


The problem here is that even your registered Tamworths would be "illegal" if you go by the DNR ISO. My AGH would also be illegal, and even more so because I let them range my farm during the day. Even though the farm is fenced, they're considered "feral" in the state of MI, and the DNR could come in and shoot them because they're not confined to a building. I, for one, do NOT want ANY agency to be able to dictate what kind(s) of animals I can legally grow on my farm for food. Mark is not just fighting for himself; he's fighting for ALL small farmers. If Michigan is allowed to get away with this, other states WILL follow suit, and none of us will be allowed to raise heritage breeds. Monsanto has a patent on 8 breeds, and wants only those breeds to be legal so that they can make all the profit.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

blaineiac said:


> I raised feeders for a few years. I have had registered Tamworths for the past 3 years.
> 
> I'm not sure what this has to do with contaminating Heritage blood, or raising illegal stock.


You seemed to be speaking authoritatively, as one who understands the "ins and outs" of breeding and the results of selective choices. 

Therefore, I was checking to see if it was safe to assume that you are well-versed in the law (i.e. what constitutes "illegal stock" and on what that information is based) and what constitutes "heritage" blood and its contamination.

It is up to us to look at all the facts, and not assume that sound bites carry the whole story. It is our responsibility to do our thinking and, if a law is unreasonable or even (as is more frequently the case) un-Constitutional, we are responsible to take a stand against such a law and have it removed.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

"Free-ranging" is not "feral."

It seems that the office-dwellers feel that the only "healthy" way to raise meat is on dry-lots or in CAFOs. 

Anyone who has seen the govt model of animal husbandry (and I use the term loosely) will realize that there is more here than concern for genetic purity. And frankly, I still don't see the govt's burning interest in farming. 

What do pencil-pushing suits understand about farming? 

The question is, of course, rhetorical. The only thing the politicos understand is The Corporate Bottom Line. They see us as merely consumers, whose money and resources are to be used in service to corporations.

And that's the truth.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

blaineiac said:


> . This is so he can sell more Mangs as pure. This is worse than just raising wild hogs. He is contaminating a gene pool so he can sell more hogs.


Do you have proof of this?....thought not
From the video clips that I saw of his operation (before all of this DNR stuff) he always said that he used a mix and why.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

blaineiac said:


> I'm not sure what this has to do with contaminating Heritage blood, or raising illegal stock.


it is his right to breed what mix he wants too and his pigs were not illegal when he started.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

This was a double post, see below.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Sorry to hear that Mark has misled you and cost you $10. Wild pigs come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. Because of this variable and the possibility of lawsuits, Michiganâs DNR chose to have an inclusive description of what a wild hog is. If you saw Markâs wild Hogs, there is no question. No one is after his Mangalitsa hogs. 
I am thankful for Markâs service to the United States. But, that does not give him a âfree passâ on the laws of this country.
The problem is NOT his Mangalitsa pigs. The real problem is that he insists in raising Wild Hogs and also crossing them with his Mangalitsa pigs. Strikes me as strange to be raising a rare/endangered hog breed while insisting on breeding them to Wild Hogs that were trapped in southern states and hauled illegally and without Interstate Health Certificates, to his farm.
All Hunt Clubs and people raising Wild Hogs (mostly for Hunt Clubs) were hiven a year to clear out their Wild Hogs. Mark chose to keep breeding his. 
This isnât a Feds issue. The wild hogs are destroying the chop land of Small Farmers, damaging lawns, spreading diseases and spoiling natural ponds and streams. No one has been effective in containing this menace. Not even Mark.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

harvestmoonfarm said:


> How is his operation "illegal?" Have any of you read the description the DNR has put on "feral hogs?" Can you not see that this is an attempt by "Big AG" to put small farms out of business? Or do you not have a problem with the Feds overstepping their boundaries? If this were happening to you and your family, you'd be the first to be screaming for help, but because it doesn't affect YOU, it doesn't matter, correct?


If you believe this is an attempt by Big Ag to squeze out the small farmer, you have been seriously misled.
It is about wild hogs brought to Michigan for Hunt Clubs and people that raise Wild Hogs for Hunt Clubs. The State gave everyone a year to shoot them at their hunt clubs or sell to anyone in a state that allows such a menace. Strictly a State issue. 
However, when he began druming up support and started talking about an armed revolt, aka Revoloution, the feds came and checked him out, like they would any other potential terriorist.
Guys like Mark Baker hurt small farmers with those wild hogs that he admitted he couldn't keep penned in.
So, if his Wild Hogs aren't ruining your crop, it doesn't affect you, so it doesn't matter?


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

haypoint said:


> Sorry to hear that Mark has misled you and cost you $10. Wild pigs come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. Because of this variable and the possibility of lawsuits, Michiganâs DNR chose to have an inclusive description of what a wild hog is. If you saw Markâs wild Hogs, there is no question. No one is after his Mangalitsa hogs.
> I am thankful for Markâs service to the United States. But, that does not give him a âfree passâ on the laws of this country.
> The problem is NOT his Mangalitsa pigs. The real problem is that he insists in raising Wild Hogs and also crossing them with his Mangalitsa pigs. Strikes me as strange to be raising a rare/endangered hog breed while insisting on breeding them to Wild Hogs that were trapped in southern states and hauled illegally and without Interstate Health Certificates, to his farm.
> All Hunt Clubs and people raising Wild Hogs (mostly for Hunt Clubs) were hiven a year to clear out their Wild Hogs. Mark chose to keep breeding his.
> This isnât a Feds issue. The wild hogs are destroying the chop land of Small Farmers, damaging lawns, spreading diseases and spoiling natural ponds and streams. No one has been effective in containing this menace. Not even Mark.


Wow. You are such an expert on everything. How do you manage to get to all these places and know so much?

How is it that you know this situation so well that you can besmirch a man's reputation, as though you were there every step of the way?

I am appalled at your naysaying and your constant support of All Things (Intrusive) Govt. You are either a patsy, or so seriously "misled" that you are beyond an independent thought of your own.

Bah. People like you are a bane to free society.

Shame on you.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Pony said:


> Wow. You are such an expert on everything. How do you manage to get to all these places and know so much?
> 
> How is it that you know this situation so well that you can besmirch a man's reputation, as though you were there every step of the way?
> 
> ...


 
Wow, did Mark take you for $10, too? 
I live in Michigan. This Wild hog issue is a big deal. Mark and a hunt Club near Cheboygan made a big deal about getting rid of the Wild Hogs. Some folks were saying that the DNR was making him get rid of his rare breed hairy pigs. That isnât fair, so I checked into it. Once I had the facts, I formed an opinion. But I did continue to follow it every step of the way. 
Mark twists the truth, hides important details and asks you for money. I bring important information to the discussion and Iâm pro-Government? Maybe you need to rethink that, a bit. Iâm pro-truth. If you want to believe the Michigan Department of Natural Resources is out to protect the Nationâs Factory Hog farms by telling Mark that he cannot raise Wild Hogs anymore, then you can just believe it. But I know that is far from the truth.
One might think that those that believe Markâs video are the real patsies.
Iâm not basing my statements on any independent thoughts or ideas Iâve had. I come to this Wild Hog problem with an open mind and a thirst for the truth.
I want Michiganâs farmers, large and small protected from this growing menace.
His latest claim that the Slaughter facility wonât take his pigs is new to me. Itâll take a couple weeks for the facts to surface on that. With all the publicity that Mark has generated, it might just be that he is being shunned by the independent slaughter facility owner. Maybe since he was ordered to get rid of the Wild Hogs a year ago, Markâs place may be under quarantine. I donât know that. 
In a free society, it is imperative that you seek out the truth. What is the name they call people that follow liars? 
The internet provides the myths you seek. Here is a slanted article full of lies and half truths about Mark Bakerâs pigs and Michiganâs ban on Wild Hogs. Complete with a photoshopped lead photo of a fictional raid. http://www.naturalnews.com/035585_Michigan_farms_raids.html
Enjoy.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Pony said:


> "Free-ranging" is not "feral."
> 
> It seems that the office-dwellers feel that the only "healthy" way to raise meat is on dry-lots or in CAFOs.
> 
> ...


 
The government knows the difference. No Government official is calling free range pigs feral. But when Russian Wild Boars, European Wild Hogs and Razorbacks escape, as hundreds in Michigan have, they return to their feral state. 
Do tell. Iâd like to visit this Government model of Animal husbandry that you speak of. Have you been there? When? What are their hours of visitation?
In Markâs case,( we are talking about Markâs pig troubles arenât we?) it is the protection of the stateâs natural resources. That is our meadows, forests, wetlands, orchards and cropland that Michigan Department of Natural Resources is attempting to protect. From this recently imported non-native, invasive species.
In my opinion, they allowed the Hunt Clubs to illegally import Wild Hogs for far too long. Hundreds had escaped into the wild and breeding groups established before they recognized the environmental damage they are causing. 
This isnât being pushed by The Ag Department, but does have an Ag component. Michigan could lose our psudorabies-free status when an infected Wild hog infects a domestic hog farm. 
And thatâs the facts. Ignore at your own peril.


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## harvestmoonfarm (Nov 24, 2012)

AGH are a landrace breed and have proven, over HUNDREDS of years, that they don't need us to survive. So are they next on this "list" of heritage breeds that must be destroyed? What about the Mulefoot, the Tamworth, etc.? I think we have more of a wild hog problem here in a single county in VA than you do in the entire state of Michigan, all because a farmer got sick and his stock (NOT "wild hogs" by any means) got loose and became feral. ANY breed of hog can be destructive, as well as any breed of cow, horse, etc., so where does the ban stop?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> it is his right to breed what mix he wants too and his pigs were not illegal when he started.


You are correct, they were legal when he started, sort of. 
This whole wild Hog thing got started with the Hunt Clubs. They needed hunts that were cheaper than the $2000 White tailed buck hunts. They could get a Wild hog, trapped and transported in a horse trailer, 10 or 15 in a trip, for under $200 each. Guys would pay $600 for a chance to shoot one, in a fenced enclosure. The 10 foot tall fences kept the deer just fine. The hogs quickly escaped. Farmers saw that they could get more for raising Russian Wild hogs than domestic pigs. but what is missed is that Wild hogs carry diseases and most wild hogs were crossing state lines without the required Interstate Health Certificate. 

But still it isn't fair to allow something and then make it illegal. So, MDNR allowed everyone a year to sell to other states or shoot at the Hunt Clubs their remaining Wild Hogs. Everyone did. Except Renagade Ranch in Cheboygan, MI and our needy friend Mark Baker.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

DenMacII said:


> Imagine the uproar if the MI DNR had labeled all cats that were seen or thought to be seen outdoors as feral and subject to immediate termination. That your cat of 10 years that wandered in your yard every day, but always came in to nap, eat, and sleep, suddenly in the span of 6 months was labeled an outlaw to be terminated on sight. And, now you are harboring this feral cat, and subject to ridiculous persecution until you terminate your family pet. Every animal rights group in the country would scream bloody murder, yet the feral cat population is a massive nuisance in every state and next to nothing is done about it.
> 
> Here they are persecuting respectful, hard working farmers, for what was a feeble attempt to thwart a few gaming clubs that 'might' have a few pigs breach the fences. No one wants their profits walking off their property - including the game clubs. This is a horrible situation, and Mark Baker should be being heralded as an example of what is right in the small farm world - not as someone being squeezed out of business for pointing out the obvious.


A slight correction is needed here. Hundreds have escaped. Hunt Clubs and most farmers were unable to contain Wild Hogs. 
If you were trying to make a living growing sweet corn near some one that was raising Wild Hogs, you might think differently about who has rights.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

partndn said:


> For some unknown reason, I am still fascinated by the sheeple and the stuff they say.
> 
> Oh well... to the OP, thanks for the thread. I had already seen it via another resource. I sure hope he makes it and wins in court.


And I'm facinated by the people that believe everything they see posted on youtube.


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## harvestmoonfarm (Nov 24, 2012)

How many of those wild hogs have you or someone you know killed thus far? Since there are "hundreds" running around, and as fast as hogs reproduce, you guys should be living pretty good off all the free pork, huh?


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## pmondo (Oct 6, 2007)

first the are no wild pigs in the USA only feral pigs
wild= native pig never been under the control of humans
feral pig = domestic pig that got loose and just followed it's instincts BTW haypoint mark got me for $50


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

haypoint said:


> You are correct, they were legal when he started, sort of.
> This whole wild Hog thing got started with the Hunt Clubs. They needed hunts that were cheaper than the $2000 White tailed buck hunts. They could get a Wild hog, trapped and transported in a horse trailer, 10 or 15 in a trip, for under $200 each. Guys would pay $600 for a chance to shoot one, in a fenced enclosure. The 10 foot tall fences kept the deer just fine. The hogs quickly escaped. Farmers saw that they could get more for raising Russian Wild hogs than domestic pigs. but what is missed is that Wild hogs carry diseases and most wild hogs were crossing state lines without the required Interstate Health Certificate.
> 
> But still it isn't fair to allow something and then make it illegal. So, MDNR allowed everyone a year to sell to other states or shoot at the Hunt Clubs their remaining Wild Hogs. Everyone did. Except Renagade Ranch in Cheboygan, MI and our needy friend Mark Baker.


It isn't fair. that is why there are grandfather laws.
if you are not braking the law, the law shouldn't be punishing you.
if *his pigs* are not out doing damage then he should be left alone.

When will mustang and any horse resembling one be outlawed?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

pmondo said:


> first the are no wild pigs in the USA only feral pigs
> wild= native pig never been under the control of humans
> feral pig = domestic pig that got loose and just followed it's instincts BTW haypoint mark got me for $50


Sorry to hear that you lost $50. I guess you'll have to just watch and see how this plays out. Next time you get your check book out for a worthy cause, get a copy of their 501c3, non-profit IRS application.

Russian Wild Hogs have been brought to Michigan Hunt Clubs and have eacaped. Eurasian Wild Hogs have been brought to Michigan and escaped. You can call a Razorback a domestic hog that runs loose in your soybean field feral. The proper names of the others is Wild. You can pretend that any of those three breeds were domestic, but it would be a big stretch. It seem that after a couple hundred years running free, these adaptable beasts have lost their respect for fences. Imagine that?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> It isn't fair. that is why there are grandfather laws.
> if you are not braking the law, the law shouldn't be punishing you.
> if *his pigs* are not out doing damage then he should be left alone.
> 
> When will mustang and any horse resembling one be outlawed?


Few laws have grandfather clauses. Once the hogs escape, they generally don't return. They have been running loose in Texas and Georgia for a very long time. Michigan's millions of acres of crop land, forests, orchards and lakes is ideal for them. Once out, they are very difficult to shoot. Waiting until they escape is too late. Baker has admitted his do escape, but claims his return. There is evidence of pig tracks outside his property. He simply says they aren't his and the DNR can't prove it. 

I know a guy that texts while driving. He has been doing it for years. Now they want to make a law against it. Because he hasn't been in an accident, shouldn't he be "grandfathered in" and allowed to text while driving? Maybe give him a ticket only if it can be proved he was texting while driving?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

harvestmoonfarm said:


> AGH are a landrace breed and have proven, over HUNDREDS of years, that they don't need us to survive. So are they next on this "list" of heritage breeds that must be destroyed? What about the Mulefoot, the Tamworth, etc.? I think we have more of a wild hog problem here in a single county in VA than you do in the entire state of Michigan, all because a farmer got sick and his stock (NOT "wild hogs" by any means) got loose and became feral. ANY breed of hog can be destructive, as well as any breed of cow, horse, etc., so where does the ban stop?


If the reason behind the ban on Russian Wild Boar, Eurasian Wild Hogs and Razorbacks, was based on the fact that they aren't pink and don't look like comercial hogs, then you might have a worry.

But that isn't the reason. I don't know if you have these breeds of pigs running around in VA or not. Wild hogs were in Texas and a few other states a decade ago. But because of Hunt Clubs they have been imported into 35 states. In every state they got loose and established breeding units. None of these states have been able to eradicate this pest. Michigan's 75 Billion agriculture is threatened by this invasive pest. 
You think Mark should be treated special. I don't. 

These hogs are a very long ways from a farmer's pigs that got loose and became feral.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

harvestmoonfarm said:


> How many of those wild hogs have you or someone you know killed thus far? Since there are "hundreds" running around, and as fast as hogs reproduce, you guys should be living pretty good off all the free pork, huh?


Wish it were true. 

These wily pests are nocturnal. There are plenty of photos of them ruining crops on night vision Game Cameras, but hunters arenât having much luck shooting them. Michiganâs DNR has declared open season on them. Any land owner or person with a hunting license of any kind can shoot as many as they want. Plenty of sightings, plenty of damage, but few kills.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

blaineiac said:


> The difference is that he is using wild sows, to get the litter size up and still keep his Mang fenotype. This is so he can sell more Mangs as pure. This is worse than just raising wild hogs. He is contaminating a gene pool so he can sell more hogs.


Does anyone find it interesting that he claims to be using wild hogs to increase his litter size, when wild hogs generally have small litters. If it were truely litter size, there are breeds with large litters that closer resemble his heritage breed.
Just shows that he was growing Wild Hogs for the Hunt Clubs and when they were baned, he has tried to create an exception to the rule, by crossing them with his Mangs. 

Small Farms in Michigan do not want this pest ruining their crops and orchards. Those that love nature, don't want this pest ruining ponds and creeks and forests.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

haypoint said:


> Few laws have grandfather clauses. Once the hogs escape, they generally don't return. They have been running loose in Texas and Georgia for a very long time. Michigan's millions of acres of crop land, forests, orchards and lakes is ideal for them. Once out, they are very difficult to shoot. Waiting until they escape is too late. Baker has admitted his do escape, but claims his return. There is evidence of pig tracks outside his property. He simply says they aren't his and the DNR can't prove it.
> 
> I know a guy that texts while driving. He has been doing it for years. Now they want to make a law against it. Because he hasn't been in an accident, shouldn't he be "grandfathered in" and allowed to text while driving? Maybe give him a ticket only if it can be proved he was texting while driving?


I guess you would call me a real libertarian. if you haven't hurt anyone then yes you should not be punished because of someone else doings.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

haypoint said:


> *Just shows that he was growing Wild Hogs for the Hunt Clubs* and when they were baned, he has tried to create an exception to the rule, by crossing them with his Mangs.


can you prove this please.

or are you giving a ticket because there is a cell phone in the truck?

If i remember right he said that it was because they are good mothers so can raise a larger litter then the mangs. 
pink pigs have larger litters but are known to squish piglets. hairy pigs are better for all weather pasturing.....

and it shouldn't matter WHY he uses the cross what matter is that he is being punished for damage by other people doings or lack of doings.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12145_55230-230062--,00.html


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> I guess you would call me a real libertarian. if you haven't hurt anyone then yes you should not be punished because of someone else doings.


I have a child that likes to play with my pistol. Many other people have children that play with pistols. Many people are getting shot by children playing with guns. I should be allowed to leave my gun with my child because there hasn't been any problem? Using your reasoning, as long as my child hasn't created a problem, I shouldn't be restricted by the actions of others.

If we could roll back the hands of time and see what has happened, there would be a simple solution. Test every imported hog, get the required Interstate Health Certificate. Then require every imported Wild/Feral hog get micro chipped. Require every Wild Hog on the farm be microchipped within three weeks of age. Then when a Wild/Feral hog is found outside a fence, destroying the environment, shoot it and scan the chip. Fine the owner $10,000 to cover the damage and effort to hunt down escapees.
As it now stands, Wild Hog breeders just say, " Not my hog." and the problem of getting rid of them is dumped on the other land owners in this state.

No,I wouldn't call you a Libertarian. I would have a different name for that line of thinking.

None of what we say here matters. In a while, the courts will settle it and the transcripts will be public. My guess is that once the wave of do-gooders subsides and he cannot fleece anyone else, he'll settle.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> can you prove this please.
> 
> or are you giving a ticket because there is a cell phone in the truck?
> 
> ...


Go ahead, you ask him. He might tell you. If he says no, I'll contact the owners of the Hunt Clubs and see if they say they bought Wild Hogs from Mark Baker.

Larger litters? Not from those Russian hogs he has.You'd use a feral pig from Texas to help your hairy pigs deal with Michigan weather?ound:


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

haypoint said:


> I have a child that likes to play with my pistol. Many other people have children that play with pistols. Many people are getting shot by children playing with guns. I should be allowed to leave my gun with my child because there hasn't been any problem? Using your reasoning, as long as my child hasn't created a problem, I shouldn't be restricted by the actions of others.
> 
> If we could roll back the hands of time and see what has happened, there would be a simple solution. Test every imported hog, get the required Interstate Health Certificate. Then require every imported Wild/Feral hog get micro chipped. Require every Wild Hog on the farm be microchipped within three weeks of age. Then when a Wild/Feral hog is found outside a fence, destroying the environment, shoot it and scan the chip. Fine the owner $10,000 to cover the damage and effort to hunt down escapees.
> As it now stands, Wild Hog breeders just say, " Not my hog." and the problem of getting rid of them is dumped on the other land owners in this state.


you know there was a time that there were no gun safes. and kids were taught to respect firearms. kids are too pampered. use to you were responsible for your under 13 year old child. and if your child hurt someone then it was you responsibility. if they killed someone you would be up for murder. it is call personal responsibility and not leaning on a nanny government.

they could require chips now.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

haypoint said:


> Go ahead, you ask him. He might tell you. If he says no, I'll contact the owners of the Hunt Clubs and see if they say they bought Wild Hogs from Mark Baker.
> 
> Larger litters? Not from those Russian hogs he has.You'd use a feral pig from Texas to help your hairy pigs deal with Michigan weather?ound:


ok go ask. make sure they have a notary there too.
did you even read what i posted? having a larger litter and not raising doesn't help a thing. he wanted a sow that would raise what she had.
kinda like a leghorn wouldn't work for a "they brood their own" chick hatchery. 
and do you have proof that he got is pigs from TX?
if a pig from TX couldn't stand the weather up there then why worry? they would just die off in the wild, right?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

http://blog.hogtuff.com/archives/113


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> ok go ask. make sure they have a notary there too.
> did you even read what i posted? having a larger litter and not raising doesn't help a thing. he wanted a sow that would raise what she had.
> kinda like a leghorn wouldn't work for a "they brood their own" chick hatchery.
> and do you have proof that he got is pigs from TX?
> if a pig from TX couldn't stand the weather up there then why worry? they would just die off in the wild, right?


Pink commercial hogs wouldn't be my first choice for pasture raised hogs. Mark has selected a unique rare breed of heritage hogs. Do you believe a knowledgeable breeder of heritage breed hogs would bypass all the other heritage breeds, many known for mothering abilty, and resort to a Russian Wild Boar?

You get a statement from Mark and I'll go from there.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

he may have his reasons for wanting that breed.
the same as someone wanting a mustang instead of a quarter or walker.
I wanted Ossabaw. some called them feral. I wanted them for my own reasons. for their ability to produce lard on less feed for one . their history for another and yes for their ability to raise their own offspring for many years with out having to be replaced due to becoming to larger. same with the boars.

it really shouldn't matter to the anyone including the government why he wanted to breed what he wants to breed. he had a market for them. and it paid to feed his family. and there is/was no proof that his pigs were running wild. and doing anything other then feed people.

So you can make statements yet not have to back them up?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> he may have his reasons for wanting that breed.
> the same as someone wanting a mustang instead of a quarter or walker.
> I wanted Ossabaw. some called them feral. I wanted them for my own reasons. for their ability to produce lard on less feed for one . their history for another and yes for their ability to raise their own offspring for many years with out having to be replaced due to becoming to lager. same with the boars.
> 
> ...


What statement do you want backed up?
You are right, what he does on his farm shouldn't matter. But since so many have escaped all over the state, nation, it becomes my business.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

&#8220;while insisting on breeding them to Wild Hogs that were trapped in southern states and hauled illegally and without Interstate Health Certificates, *to his farm*.&#8221;

&#8220;Just shows that he was growing Wild Hogs for the Hunt Clubs and when they were baned, he has tried to create an exception to the rule, by crossing them with his Mangs&#8220;

No, the ones that are loose and are on YOUR farm is your business. not someone else pigs on their farm.

Haypoint you and I will never agree on this. I am for if you aren't hurting anyone then you shouldn't be punished. 
i would be standing for your rights to do what ever the H E double hockey sticks you want on your farm too as long as YOU are not stepping on anyone else.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> âwhile insisting on breeding them to Wild Hogs that were trapped in southern states and hauled illegally and without Interstate Health Certificates, *to his farm*.â
> 
> âJust shows that he was growing Wild Hogs for the Hunt Clubs and when they were baned, he has tried to create an exception to the rule, by crossing them with his Mangsâ
> 
> ...


We'll just have to agree to disagree. The feral pigs on my farm that got loose from your farm are your problem. My trouble is that you can simply say they aren't yours and I'm stuck with the near impossible task of rooting out these pests on my own. Thaat isn't fair. We know where the problem started and it only makes sense to me that you take steps to end it. The folks that created this mess, by importing a non-native wild animal that they should have known they couldn't contain with common fencing, should be made to pay the millions it could cost in geting rid of the breeding escapees. But they easily deny ownership and the burden shifts to those trying to grow crops or orchards. That isn't fair.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

that it true. it would be my fault if my pigs got out and came on your land.
like you said, requre chips and fined the living .... out of the owner who's "ferel" pigs are outside of their control. plus reimbursement for any damage.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> that it true. it would be my fault if my pigs got out and came on your land.
> like you said, requre chips and fined the living .... out of the owner who's "ferel" pigs are outside of their control. plus reimbursement for any damage.


We both know how poorly recieved the RFID plan was. Requiring pig farmers to do something simular would be met with great resistance, too, I would guess. Then there would need to be someone insuring that they actually were implanting the chips, requiring more government intrusion. Fines for any pigs on your place without chips would be needed to insure a level of effectiveness. Sounds like more government involvement into the lives of the small farmers. Would you need to have all pasture raised hogs "chipped" and no need to chip confinesment raised pork. Now you have fuel for " Big Ag gets away with not chipping and the little guy has to bear the costs, just not fair." Nope. More trouble than it's worth.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I was puzzled by Mark Baker's statement that he couldn't get his pigs butchered at the slaughter facility he went to. Mark carefully picks his words, so what you think was going on isn't exactly what happened. 
Wild Hogs/ Feral pigs haven't been allowed to be sold through Livestock auctions for some time now, maybe 2 years or more. 
Every owner of Wild Hogs was given a year to market their hogs. That year was over a year ago. Mark is in violation of the law, court date pending. 
I can see a Slaughter facility not wanting to get entangled in his legal battle with the State.
However, Mark could sell each Wild Russian Hog to any individual, shoot their hog on his property and then take the carcus to any butcher shop for final cutting. 

Instead of sending him money for feed, everyone should be buying individual hogs and drive up to get the meat after it is processed. The government has little say over how your own pig gets processed. 

But we don't know, except what Mark has said, that any of this is true or that he has any Wild Russian Hogs left.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

haypoint said:


> Nope. More trouble than it's worth.


But it would have given them a choice whether they want to chip or get rid of the hogs.
I use AKC that require permanent ID on my dogs (chips or tattoo). I do so, so I can have my dogs registered with that registry. I have a choice and choose to chip at about $6.50 a chip.

license and fines could be used to help fund real feral pig trapping......


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

haypoint said:


> I was puzzled by Mark Baker's statement that he couldn't get his pigs butchered at the slaughter facility he went to. Mark carefully picks his words, so what you think was going on isn't exactly what happened.
> Wild Hogs/ Feral pigs haven't been allowed to be sold through Livestock auctions for some time now, maybe 2 years or more.
> Every owner of Wild Hogs was given a year to market their hogs. That year was over a year ago. Mark is in violation of the law, court date pending.
> I can see a Slaughter facility not wanting to get entangled in his legal battle with the State.
> ...


Is it not illegal to sell them in the state?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> Is it not illegal to sell them in the state?


Now that he has gone so far past last year's deadline, it just might be illegal. But hunters and landowners are encouraged to shoot any they see, so shooting Wild Hogs on your property is legal. But then he couldn't legally sell the dead hog to someone else. Allowing another person to come to his place to shoot a live hog would be a Hunt Club activity and I know that isn't allowed. 

It would seem that the DNR could make an exception for him. The Department of Ag tries to be flexable/reasonable, but the DNR is more likely going to follow the letter of the law. Might weaken DNR's court case if they made exceptions just for Mark.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> But it would have given them a choice whether they want to chip or get rid of the hogs.
> I use AKC that require permanent ID on my dogs (chips or tattoo). I do so, so I can have my dogs registered with that registry. I have a choice and choose to chip at about $6.50 a chip.
> 
> license and fines could be used to help fund real feral pig trapping......


Out of the thousnds of things we could talk about on HT, RFID ranks right up in the top 5 or 6 "Hot Button" topics. There is an unbelievable amount of misinformation and emotion attached to a RFID, I doubt anyone would want to tackle it. eep:


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

wonder if he can have donation bbq gathering. 
every weekend or so have a "wild night at the acres" free pig picken, snow dancing and bonfire! donations welcomed.


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## Brighton (Apr 14, 2013)

He won, Mark Baker won, yahoo for the Baker family and all who donated!!

http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/news_wp/?p=14725


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

He actually didn't win, since this was him suing the state. He wanted to make them explain, so a judge could understand it, their whole "straight ear, curly tail, black snout" set of criteria. Basically the asst. attorney general, told the judge that Mark didn't have any pigs that the state was concerned with and the judge dismissed the case. Mark currently has pigs with "Russian" DNA in them. 

What is very silly in all of this is the assumption that hogs need "Russian" dna to go feral. Besides our native swine, which won't cross with wild or domestic old world pigs, wild hogs have been present in the US for 4 or 5 hundred years. None of these were Russian. They were of Spanish descent, domestic gone feral. Certainly very capable of going feral, and certainly capable of doing damage. In some cases, they went back to their near-ancestral state resembling a "Russian". Some of them went into heritage breeds. 

I've had some very close friends that were involved with hog hunting down south, people started really pushing for the Russian genetics. This was the eighties. The places back then that you could get high % russians were from Texas, and Michigan. Michigan has had Russian wild boar since probably the fifties. This is not a new problem, and the DNR is more of a problem than a solution.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

"I've had some very close friends that were involved with hog hunting down south, people started really pushing for the Russian genetics. This was the eighties. The places back then that you could get high % russians were from Texas, and Michigan. Michigan has had Russian wild boar since probably the fifties. This is not a new problem, and the DNR is more of a problem than a solution."

I know nothing about your friends hog hunting in the South. I have lived in Michigan my whole life. I have been active in Agriculture and hunting for much of my life. Russian Boar in Michigan is a new thing, that came after the Hunt Clubs' deer and Elk hunts, in the early 1980s. The illegal importation of hogs caught in the wild in the South is also a new development. It rapidly evolved from hauling wild pigs from the south to breeding them in Michigan. Escaped breeding populations soon followed.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

"What is very silly in all of this is the assumption that hogs need "Russian" dna to go feral. Besides our native swine, which won't cross with wild or domestic old world pigs, wild hogs have been present in the US for 4 or 5 hundred years. None of these were Russian. They were of Spanish descent, domestic gone feral. Certainly very capable of going feral, and certainly capable of doing damage. In some cases, they went back to their near-ancestral state resembling a "Russian". Some of them went into heritage breeds." 

I think that anyone that has hunted wild hogs in the south can tell the difference between a domestic hog and a wild one. They do cross breed. So, then you have the problem establishing what is a characteristic of a wild hog. There are many domestic hogs that have been feral for countless generations. They are for all intent and purpose wild hogs. Not fair to classify a stripped hog as wild and an equally wild/feral hog that isn't stripped as not a wild hog. With varying amounts of various domestic breeds in wild hogs, putting a description that fits all wild hogs ends up sounding like many domestic hogs. Mixing up the different terms "Wild" with "feral" further muddies the water. 
Michigan just wants rid of the feral hogs destroying orchards, crops, lawns, ponds, streams and rivers. I don't want to wait until the penned up wild hogs get loose until action is taken. We have come to know that these pests are nearly impossible to keep penned up. 
But because of a history of fence failures, wild hogs in Michigan is a bad thing. Just as Lions, tigers, primates, wolves and bears are illegal to own in Michigan, unless you are an accredited zoo.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

"He actually didn't win, since this was him suing the state. He wanted to make them explain, so a judge could understand it, their whole "straight ear, curly tail, black snout" set of criteria. Basically the asst. attorney general, told the judge that Mark didn't have any pigs that the state was concerned with and the judge dismissed the case. Mark currently has pigs with "Russian" DNA in them."

The DNR messed up. The Lawyers messed up in writing the law. Wild hogs, crossed with many different breeds of domestic hogs carry some characteristics of those breeds. Not all wild hogs have straight tails. Not all wild hogs are bristle haired. Having Russian DNA is one sure way of identification, but costly.

Everyone else, that was raising Wild Hogs got rid of theirs and the DNR can keep an eye on Mark. So, rather than risk getting the whole invasive species law thrown out, they threw in the towel on the single case against Mark. Mark was not found innocent.


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## HerseyMI (Jul 22, 2012)

If memory serves, Ted Nugent was one of or maybe The One that boasted having "wild" russian boar on his land for hunts. After that... everybody wanted them.

I predict BGA gets sued in civil court in regards to loose pigs and property damages among other things.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Southern wild hogs (the non natives anyway) have several hundred years history in this country without Russian influence. They don't have to have any Russian influence to be a serious problem. As long as the DNR allows any form of swine in high fenced fee hunting areas, they are asking for trouble. If you want to look at the history of Russian boar genetics in this country, I will tell you that very early on, the USAF was very influential. Air Force bases are never far from wild hog populations. I have some very old literature stating the stocking status of wild boar and the efforts going on with the USAF. It must have been some part of jungle warfare training, or maybe just recreation, I don't know. I also have fairly old periodicals with Russian boar advertised in MI. Trusting the people responsible for the problem to solve the problem is not going to work. Farmers are much closer to pavement and easier to harass.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12145_55230---,00.html


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## HerseyMI (Jul 22, 2012)

barnbilder said:


> Southern wild hogs (the non natives anyway) have several hundred years history in this country without Russian influence. They don't have to have any Russian influence to be a serious problem. As long as the DNR allows any form of swine in high fenced fee hunting areas, they are asking for trouble. If you want to look at the history of Russian boar genetics in this country, I will tell you that very early on, the USAF was very influential. Air Force bases are never far from wild hog populations. I have some very old literature stating the stocking status of wild boar and the efforts going on with the USAF. It must have been some part of jungle warfare training, or maybe just recreation, I don't know. I also have fairly old periodicals with Russian boar advertised in MI. Trusting the people responsible for the problem to solve the problem is not going to work. Farmers are much closer to pavement and easier to harass.



Barnbuilder, I challenge you to provide "proof" that ANY swine / pig is native to the continental United States of America.


http://wildpiginfo.msstate.edu/history-wild-pigs.html


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## FarmerDavid (Jul 16, 2012)

My real only problem with this whole thing is the description of the pigs. It is clearly not the intent to go after all small farm operations, however though not the origional intent it could be used to go after such operations in the future. I really dont have alot of faith in the common sence of our politicans and judges. The pigs they are seeking to eliminate are destructive and a menace. We've had area people that liked to go to Texas and hunt them. Then they got tired of having to go to Texas and pay to hunt them so they brought them up and let them lose on public land so they could hunt them up here whenever. We had some get on our land a few years back. We're almost 40 miles from where they were releasing them, fortunately we were able to shoot them and haven't seen any since. Even in the short time we knew we had them they destroyed a pond that we ended up having to push in.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Though it may be shocking to some, the javelina are native to the continental USA. They are so destructive they turned their whole natural ecosystem into a desert in their US range. Some of their southern range is still jungle, however, probably something to do with NAFTA. The USDA should have some real fun microchipping them. As for proof, I'm sure you know how to use the internet.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

barnbilder said:


> Though it may be shocking to some, the javelina are native to the continental USA. They are so destructive they turned their whole natural ecosystem into a desert in their US range. Some of their southern range is still jungle, however, probably something to do with NAFTA. The USDA should have some real fun microchipping them. As for proof, I'm sure you know how to use the internet.


Are Javelina in the pig family ?


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Well, they sure as heck aren't ducks.They are classified as "new world swine". Have their own family, which is a rather recent development. They are close enough to being a pig that they can carry pig diseases, notably psuedorabies.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

horses are native to north america


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Horses are not native to North America. Horses were killed off about 11,000 years ago. The horses we have in America now were introduced in the last couple of centuries and are an invasive species. See:

http://www.google.com/search?q=history of horses in north america

I'm not saying horses are bad, but they are not a native species for North America. They were introduced here about the same time that pigs were by the Spanish. If you want to say horses are native then you'll need to say pigs are native. Neither are. Both are here. Life is.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

highlands said:


> Horses are not native to North America. Horses were killed off about 11,000 years ago. The horses we have in America now were introduced in the last couple of centuries and are an invasive species. See:
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?q=history of horses in north america
> 
> I'm not saying horses are bad, but they are not a native species for North America. They were introduced here about the same time that pigs were by the Spanish. If you want to say horses are native then you'll need to say pigs are native. Neither are. Both are here. Life is.


 So, horses were native to North America, returned with the Spaniards. What most of us think of wild hogs, were deposited here as were horses and not considered native.:sing:


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

To be fair, wild hogs as we know them predate horses in the US by hundreds of years.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

barnbilder said:


> Though it may be shocking to some, the javelina are native to the continental USA. They are so destructive they turned their whole natural ecosystem into a desert in their US range. Some of their southern range is still jungle, however, probably something to do with NAFTA. The USDA should have some real fun microchipping them. As for proof, I'm sure you know how to use the internet.


Javelinas are not hogs or in the hog family. Look it up. At one time it was thought they were, but it was determined they are related to rodents. They are a collared peccary, _Pecari tajacu_. They have a hog nose and that is about it. They only have have 1 dew claw, they have a large musk gland in the middle of their back that looks just like a woman's breast. 

They did not turn their habitat into desert, they live in the arid and Semi Arid areas of TX, NM and AZ as well down into the tropics of Mexico ans Central America. There are large numbers of them in the South Texas Brush Country and some in the Hill Country. They thrive on prickly pear cactus, getting water and nourishment from it. In this country you will seldom find any if there is no pear.

The first time I bowhunted them I saw where a bunch had been feeding on pear and wondered about hunting something that lived in thorns and stickers that eats prickly pear spines and all with a sharp stick. Then I saw where they passed prickly pear, spines and all and I knew I was outclassed. 

If they were hogs, hogs would breed with them and as it is, they seldom even feed together. 

They are not hogs and have never been hogs. Just a hog like rodent.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

barnbilder said:


> To be fair, wild hogs as we know them predate horses in the US by hundreds of years.


I dont know where you are getting your information, but everything you have said is contrary to everything I have ever read or been told by biologists in this area. And, my oldest son studied wildlife management in college and he was taught the same thing I had been told.

http://wildpiginfo.msstate.edu/history-wild-pigs.html

This is the very first paragraph in the text

*History of Wild Pigs*

Wild pigs (also known as wild hogs, wild boar, or feral swine) are an Old World species and are not native to the Americas. The first wild pigs in the United States originated solely from domestic stock brought to North America by early European explorers and settlers. Many years later, Eurasian wild boar were introduced into parts of the United States for hunting purposes. In areas where domestic pigs and Eurasian wild boar were found together in the wild, interbreeding occurred. Today, many hybrid populations exist throughout the wild pigâs range.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

Any hog can and will go feral. Just turn yours loose where they can find enough to survive on and watch what happens. 

There was a program on Discovery or the History Channel, dont remember which now and they discussed this. They showed some pigs about 3 weeks old in a pig barn hooking and fighting along with other normal behaviors and then showed the same behavior in the wild, meaning they still have all instincts to live wild, which is a fact. 

Your gentle hand raised hogs may look like a gutted snow bird for a while, but if there is enough to stay alive on, they will make it and eventually get fat again.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

haypoint said:


> So, horses were native to North America, returned with the Spaniards. What most of us think of wild hogs, were deposited here as were horses and not considered native.:sing:


No. The horses of today were not native to North America. The horses that went extinct were not the horses of today.

Yes, both horses and hogs were brought here by the Spaniards and introduced as an invasive species. They've now both been here for hundreds of years. The government is unlikely to succeed at eliminating either but they'll be sure to spend our tax dollars fighting.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Old world hogs got to the United States several hundred years before Columbus. Hawaii is a state. Polynesian settlers brought swine to Hawaii. I don't know what you've heard, but javelina belong to the suborder suina, which includes suidae (old world pigs) and tayassuidae, which includes peccary species including javelina(new world pigs.) In a historical sense, javelina diverged from a common ancestor of old world pigs a long time before horse ancestors were in North America. Horses left, but pigs ,which is what peccaries are, stayed. Whoever said that javelina are rodents was asleep during taxonomy class. They are no closer to rodents than Yorkshire hogs. Maybe you are thinking of capybara, capybara is a rodent, worlds largest. Javelina is a pig musk glands and all. Babirusa is a pig, bornean bearded pig , is a pig. They both look just as odd as javelina.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Norway rats are rodents, but like swine, they have made it to any place that will support them. Their adaptive nature has allowed them to use host species for transportation. Like a cocklebur has hooks that stick to wool or clothing, pigs have tasty flesh that make people try to keep them handy. We are stuck with them, it was part of the master plan it would seem. Maybe wild boar genetics will prove to have disease resistance or some soundness properties that will save domestic pigs in the future. Maybe GMO crops will give them all cancer, and they will go extinct. One thing certain, they are probably not going to pay much attention to laws and regulations. Pig free zones, has anybody tried just putting up some signs?


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Pig: "We are tasty and make good bacon! Take us with you and help our species thrive!"

Interesting survival plan. Seems to work!


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## HerseyMI (Jul 22, 2012)

Ahaaaa! Camels are native to North America!


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## Conhntr (Aug 7, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Next time you get your check book out for a worthy cause, get a copy of their 501c3, non-profit IRS application.


Uh do you read the news?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Conhntr said:


> Uh do you read the news?


Uh, did you understand the news? Interesting that you'd go back over a year ago to snip a part of my posting. When I wrote that, it was a legitimate question. Still is.
Does Mark Baker still have Russian Wild Boar on his farm or has he cross bred them and then gotten rid of the offending hogs? Are you sure? Apparently MDNR isn't interested in the livestock he currently has on his farm.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I would like to take the opportunity to remind people that if they have any aversion to sending money to an individual like Mark Baker, but still want to help out in cases of government oppression and burdensome regulations, The Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund does have 501 (c) (3) status, and they help farmers like Mark across the country.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> I would like to take the opportunity to remind people that if they have any aversion to sending money to an individual like Mark Baker, but still want to help out in cases of government oppression and burdensome regulations, The Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund does have 501 (c) (3) status, and they help farmers like Mark across the country.


I would also like to take the opportunity to remind folks that there are many charities that are simply scams and others that use only a small portion for good. 
Disabled Veterans of America is a scam, while Disabled American Veterans is good. National Vietnam Veterans Fund spends 88% on administrative costs, 12% to help Veterans.
Before you donate any money to a 501c3, go to www.michigan.gov/agCharitysearch and check them out. Never heard of The Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund. What is their EIN?
The Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund is not a 501c3, it is a 501c4. You might want to look into it further.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

When you decide to help someone don't be concerned about whether they are 501c3 or 501c4 or neither. Individuals are not of a tax exempt status but they are the ones that need help.  Many feel differently but when we give we try to find an individual so that they get ALL of what we can give and not just a small portion. We then don't really think about it. If we give we have to trust and what they do with it from that point on is between them and God. 

BTW I am glad this all turned out the way it did.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

grandma12703 said:


> When you decide to help someone don't be concerned about whether they are 501c3 or 501c4 or neither. Individuals are not of a tax exempt status but they are the ones that need help. Many feel differently but when we give we try to find an individual so that they get ALL of what we can give and not just a small portion. We then don't really think about it. If we give we have to trust and what they do with it from that point on is between them and God.
> 
> BTW I am glad this all turned out the way it did.


I agree, it is best to give to the person that needs help. 99percent of charities only give a small percent to the people that needs the help.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

3, 4 still not for profit. The Farm to Legal Defense Fund is usually the opponent of scams that only use a small portion of their funds for good. Because, they are usually involved in cases against the government!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

grandma12703 said:


> When you decide to help someone don't be concerned about whether they are 501c3 or 501c4 or neither. Individuals are not of a tax exempt status but they are the ones that need help. Many feel differently but when we give we try to find an individual so that they get ALL of what we can give and not just a small portion. We then don't really think about it. If we give we have to trust and what they do with it from that point on is between them and God.
> 
> BTW I am glad this all turned out the way it did.


Just how did it turn out? Did Mark get to keep his Russian Boars or did he cross breed with his heritage sows and get rid of the offending Russian Boars and the DNR opted to not split hairs over what is wild and what isn't? The "news" report isn't altogether clear on that and the invasive species act still stands. Mark didn't "win" anything. The DNR dropped their case because Mark no longer had pigs they were interested in.

Yes, helping individuals is preferable to mailing it to an organization that you know little about.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

The Michigan DNR told the judge that Mark didn't have any pigs that concerned them. Which was basically a lie. That way they wouldn't have to explain a law that makes no sense in a court. After court they issued a statement that if they find out his pigs violate law they will go after him. His pigs contain Russian blood, and the heritage breed that he raises, in it's pure form, meets the description of a wild boar, according to the law. So, to re-cap, questionable government officials are making an end run around justice, and a farmer is still in jeopardy of being harassed by the state. Nothing has really changed. 

As far as organizations that you know nothing about, yes, it would be a bad idea to support those. The Farm To Consumer Legal Defense Fund is a great organization, if you do any research at all, you will find them made up of super people, all dedicated to freedom. Call up Pete Kennedy, he will actually call you back, nice person. He "gets it." They are very informative about what they do. Where else can a small farmer get help with litigation brought against them by zealous enforcers of burdensome regulation and poorly written laws? But sending directly to the person in need works good, too.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

BobbyB said:


> Any hog can and will go feral. Just turn yours loose where they can find enough to survive on and watch what happens.
> 
> There was a program on Discovery or the History Channel, dont remember which now and they discussed this. They showed some pigs about 3 weeks old in a pig barn hooking and fighting along with other normal behaviors and then showed the same behavior in the wild, meaning they still have all instincts to live wild, which is a fact.
> 
> Your gentle hand raised hogs may look like a gutted snow bird for a while, but if there is enough to stay alive on, they will make it and eventually get fat again.


3 days of being loose in Oklahoma and they are considered feral. 

It has been rumored that in the 90's when the hog market crashed a lot of hogs were simply turned out they were worth so little.


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## Conhntr (Aug 7, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Uh, did you understand the news? Interesting that you'd go back over a year ago to snip a part of my posting. When I wrote that, it was a legitimate question. Still is.
> Does Mark Baker still have Russian Wild Boar on his farm or has he cross bred them and then gotten rid of the offending hogs? Are you sure? Apparently MDNR isn't interested in the livestock he currently has on his farm.


Uh i was talking about relying on the irs tax emption to tell worthy causes from bad.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

Nope, I'm not thinking of a capybara,I know what they are and they are not in Texas. And I know what a javelina is, there are some right across the road from me. And I have bowhunted them for years and have killed, dressed and eaten quite a few.

But that's ok, I obviously dont know what I am talking about so I'll just duck out of this now.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> The Michigan DNR told the judge that Mark didn't have any pigs that concerned them. Which was basically a lie. That way they wouldn't have to explain a law that makes no sense in a court. After court they issued a statement that if they find out his pigs violate law they will go after him. His pigs contain Russian blood, and the heritage breed that he raises, in it's pure form, meets the description of a wild boar, according to the law. So, to re-cap, questionable government officials are making an end run around justice, and a farmer is still in jeopardy of being harassed by the state. Nothing has really changed.
> 
> As far as organizations that you know nothing about, yes, it would be a bad idea to support those. The Farm To Consumer Legal Defense Fund is a great organization, if you do any research at all, you will find them made up of super people, all dedicated to freedom. Call up Pete Kennedy, he will actually call you back, nice person. He "gets it." They are very informative about what they do. Where else can a small farmer get help with litigation brought against them by zealous enforcers of burdensome regulation and poorly written laws? But sending directly to the person in need works good, too.


If everyone on HT believes as you do and supports all the causes the Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund has taken up, then there'll be no more posts in HT authored by me. Because if everyone believes natural news and everyone supports those fringe beliefs, I'm wasting your time.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Here is the latest news: (I highlighted a few points)
Comments Print By JOHN FLESHERAP Environmental Writer Published: March 03. 2014 8:43AM 0 0 A farmer in Michigan won't face fines for defying a state ban on exotic swine, but the dispute over the animals still rages. TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. (AP) &#8212; A northern Michigan farmer who defied a state ban on exotic hogs is no longer threatened with $700,000 in fines, but a dispute still rages over whether the animals are a menace, as regulators believe.Mark Baker, who raises livestock on an 80-acre farm in Missaukee County, sued the Department of Natural Resources over its designation of certain swine as invasive species that are off-limits in Michigan. The case was scheduled for trial March 11. Instead, it ended last week when state attorneys said *Baker had gotten rid of the offending animals.* The judge then tossed Baker&#8217;s suit, saying there was nothing more to litigate.The abrupt conclusion left unresolved the invasive species order&#8217;s legality, as well as whether the DNR is applying it properly, said farmers and game ranchers who are contesting it. They hope three other cases pending in the Upper Peninsula will answer those questions.Those farmers and ranchers argue that the order unfairly targets their animals, which are popular with adventure hunters and foodies who savor the tasty meat. State regulators say the hogs are escaping, breeding prolifically and damaging crops and woodlands.&#8220;We&#8217;ve contended from Day One that a pig is a pig,&#8221; said Joseph O&#8217;Leary, an attorney representing the Upper Peninsula producers. &#8220;A pig behind a fence is a good pig. A pig out in the wild is a bad one. It&#8217;s the state of being feral that&#8217;s the problem, not the color or shape or size of the pig.&#8221;The DNR agrees that any swine running loose can be harmful but disagrees that all are created equal. The policy targets varieties commonly known as Eurasian or Russian boars, or hybrids exhibiting the same physical features, such as coat color patterns and skeletal structure.These sharp-tusked hogs, which typically weigh 100-200 pounds but are sometimes larger, are notorious for tearing up the ground when rooting for food, causing erosion and weakening plants. Their tendency to wallow in muddy shallows damages ponds and streams. The pork industry says exotic swine carry diseases that can spread to domestic livestock.&#8220;You just have to see what has happened in other states where these animals have become established on the landscape to know how destructive they are,&#8221; DNR spokesman Ed Golder said. Some Southern states, such as Texas, have all but abandoned hope of eradicating them.*The DNR puts Michigan&#8217;s population at 1,000 to 3,000 but acknowledges it&#8217;s a rough estimate*. They&#8217;ve been spotted across the state but some of the highest numbers are in central Lower Peninsula counties such as Mecosta, Gratiot, Saginaw and Midland, said Pat Rusz, a biologist with the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy.&#8220;The epicenter of those hog densities are right where there was a game ranch or another facility from which they escaped,&#8221; Rusz said. &#8220;The game ranch industry kept saying, &#8216;We can keep these things in; we just need better fences.&#8217; But problems occurred even when you had excellent fences, because people make mistakes and these hogs get out.&#8221;Skeptics say feral hog numbers are exaggerated. But Pete Butchko, state director of the U.S. Department of Agriculture Wildlife Services, said regardless of how many there are, it&#8217;s time to stop them.&#8220;Five years from now it won&#8217;t be any easier,&#8221; he said.After issuing its order in December 2010, the DNR said dozens of farmers and ranchers complied. Baker was among the few holdouts, insisting his animals weren&#8217;t escaping and accusing the department of kowtowing to big agriculture. The DNR eventually threatened to fine him $700,000 &#8212; or $10,000 for each of the 70 hogs on his property at the time.Baker lost most of his customers and struggled to pay his bills. But he was determined to keep battling and said he was surprised during a pretrial hearing last week when* DNR attorneys told the judge they considered him no longer in violation because his remaining animals were not pure Russian or Eurasian boars*, but hybrids.Baker insisted he didn&#8217;t surrender and still has hogs that could be targeted under the order. His attorney, Michelle Halley, said it appeared the DNR realized the policy was flawed and sought a face-saving way to avoid losing at trial.Golder, the DNR spokesman, acknowledged Baker&#8217;s hybrids were part Russian boars but said they didn&#8217;t have the distinctive features the department considered indicative of problem animals.&#8220;We have not backed off one iota from the order,&#8221; he said. &#8220;We view this as a great thing &#8212; Mr. Baker has come into compliance with the law.&#8221;Meanwhile, a circuit judge in Marquette County is expected to rule this month on requests by three hog operations to strike down the invasive species order for vagueness and other flaws. If the judge declines, their challenges will go to trial.Glenn Smith, an attorney working with O&#8217;Leary, said the outcome of the Baker case could help their clients.&#8220;If his animals are suddenly not prohibited, I think the DNR will have trouble saying ours are prohibited,&#8221; Smith said. - See more at: http://www.capitalpress.com/article/20140303/ARTICLE/140309992/1020#sthash.byt7gChC.dpuf


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

How many pigs meet one or more of these criteria?​ ​ &#8226;​​​​Bristle-tip coloration: _Sus scrofa _exhibit bristle tips that are lighter in color (e.g., white,​
cream, or buff) than the rest of the hair shaft. This expression is most frequently​ observed across the dorsal portion and sides of the snout/face, and on the back and​ sides of the animal&#8217;s body.​ &#8226;​​​​Dark &#8220;point&#8221; coloration: _Sus scrofa _exhibit &#8220;points&#8221; (i.e., distal portions of the snout,​
ears, legs, and tail) that are dark brown to black in coloration, and lack light-colored tips​ on the bristles.​ &#8226;​​​​Coat coloration: _Sus scrofa _exhibit a number of coat coloration patterns. Patterns most​
frequently observed among wild/feral/hybrid types are: wild/grizzled; solid black; solid​ red/brown; black and white spotted; black and red/brown spotted.​ &#8226;​​​​Underfur: _Sus scrofa _exhibit the presence of underfur that is lighter in color (e.g.,​
smoke gray to brown) than the overlying dark brown to black bristles/guard hairs

 &#8226;​​​​Juvenile coat pattern: Juvenile _Sus scrofa _exhibit striped coat patterns. This consists of​
a light grayish-tan to brown base coat, with a dark brown to black spinal stripe and three​ to four brown irregular longitudinal stripes with dark margins along the length of the​ body.​ &#8226;​​​​Skeletal appearance: _Sus scrofa _skeletal structure is distinct. Structures include skull​
morphology, dorsal profile, and external body measurements including tail length, headbody​ length, hind foot length, ear length, snout length, and shoulder height.​ &#8226;​​​​Tail structure: _Sus scrofa _exhibit straight tails. They contain the muscular structure to​
curl their tails if needed, but the tails are typically held straight. Hybrids of​​​​_Sus scrofa_​_
_ exhibit either curly or straight tail structure.​ &#8226;​​​​Ear structure: _Sus scrofa _exhibit erect ear structure. Hybrids of _Sus scrofa _exhibit​
either erect or folded/floppy ear structure.​ &#8226;​​​​Other characteristics not currently known to the MDNR that are identified by the​
scientific community.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Picture worth a thousand words. From the web site I listed in this discussion a few days ago.http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12145_55230---,00.html then click: Photo Illustration Showing the Characteristics of Prohibited Swine


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

When the picture and the words are put together it makes it pretty simple.


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## Jhammett (Apr 10, 2013)

I don't know much about the politics of all this but for my two cents. I grew up in Louisiana and hunted (as a job) feral Russian or Eurasian pigs that had escaped from a research facility in New Orleans and populated quickly an are of marsh that later became English Turn Golf Course. I am now a school teacher and Small farm operator in Kansas and I have used and enjoyed Mark's Videos on killing and processing hogs on You Tube. Done in three parts. I remember when first seeing the video how much his hogs resembled those that I hunted as a young man. And remembered that damage those animals did to the environment and area where they roamed. The question I with out responsible farming would my berks and hamps do just as much damage. If there is a market for the pigs and he is being responsible BIG BROTHER should go away.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

Just about every one in this area would say that the hog in that pic has a " touch " of Russian. He is shaggier that most of what is just referred to as feral hogs here.

I say that only because here they make a distinction, right or wrong between the 2. Hogs with Russian blood are far meaner that just the run of the mill wild hogs. I have been witness to that personally.

They are all treated with equal disdain and killed on sight if at all possible. You would be hard pressed to find a rancher or farmer here that does not have a " hog gun " in his truck. 

I was always under the impression that the more pure type Russian boars were used in you Northlands for the hunting preserves because they can stand the cold winters better.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

BobbyB said:


> Just about every one in this area would say that the hog in that pic has a " touch " of Russian. He is shaggier that most of what is just referred to as feral hogs here.
> 
> I say that only because here they make a distinction, right or wrong between the 2. Hogs with Russian blood are far meaner that just the run of the mill wild hogs. I have been witness to that personally.
> 
> ...


I agree. From that video of the helicopter hunting wild hogs, they looked more like domestic hogs than the wild hogs in Michigan.

Mark Baker's sad tale aside, does anyone really want wild hogs introduced to their community?


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

haypoint said:


> I agree. From that video of the helicopter hunting wild hogs, they looked more like domestic hogs than the wild hogs in Michigan.
> 
> Mark Baker's sad tale aside, does anyone really want wild hogs introduced to their community?



In a lot of areas, hogs were turned loose by hog doggers. And now it has turned ugly. 

I do have to laugh tho when they buy a ranch, make a classy gated subdivision out of it and the hogs come in from the surrounding country and start rolling up the carpet grass in the high dollar landscaped yards like a cheap rug. 

The hogs here by and large look like domestic hogs until you get close. Long heads, no butt, heavy shoulders. Lots of color. But down here at least, they are many many generations removed from a tame hog


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

There is a huge market, for a specialized product. I think we could agree that one of the common threads that binds people on this forum is the desire to produce something that is a little bit better than what you can procure at the grocery store. It may also be some people's goal to produce food cheaper than the grocery store, but thanks to the developments in modern agriculture, that is a hard goal to realistically meet. Some of the developments in modern agriculture have changed the way our animals look, and the way that they taste. For instance, hogs have more white meat now. If you are in the artisan cured pork business, that is a bad thing. Red meat cures up better for some of the fancy sausages, and so on. Wild, or unimproved lines of pigs have a higher percentage of red meat, that lends them better to your higher end cuts of meat. As far as I'm concerned, if I had to eat store bought pork, I would do without. If you buy commercial bred hogs and feed them commercial hog feed you're going to come pretty close to store bought pork. Pale and flavorless. The mangalitsa hogs were a specialty hog from Hungary. They were the result of a couple of heritage breeds, crossed on European boar. It's easy to imagine, knowing the hurdles in importing, that the gene pool is probably going to be tight on any of those hogs brought into this country. It would stand to reason that if you were going to make an outcross, after going through the trouble of getting that type of hog in this country, the last thing you would use is a modern commercial hog. Going back to the well to get water for the gene pool is nothing new in terms of livestock breeding. Crossing back to a wild type is a good way to fix things as a breeder. It takes generations to make those genetic contributions come through in a desirable and predictable manner. But not on Michigan's watch. Specialty farm products are the reality of modern agriculture in America, whether you want to embrace it or not. We cannot compete with China on cheap, mass produced food. It's all fun and games until you get big enough to need help, then you have to pay them. Being able to pay someone for a twelve hour day with a handful of rice has it's advantages. China can never come close to us when it comes to producing good quality food, however. But, as seen in the Baker case, the government is not happy with this development. The wild boar problem is completely hyped up. It's been around for a long time. It's going to be around for a long time. And, it makes no difference if they have a speck of Russian blood in them. We are just now hearing about what a horrible problem wild pigs are, (and in all fairness, it is a horrible problem) so that the government can push politics. Their agenda is to push animal registration. Wild hogs stand in their way. As long as wild hogs are running around the woods, how can you talk a farmer into animal registration, on the basis of disease control. So, it's a thorn in their side. And to make it seem worse, you've heard a lot about them. And you've probably seen more, because they passed regulations about running them through sale barns or processing them at USDA facilities, taking away what little incentive there was in controlling them. It's not about food safety, or protecting natural resources. It's about control, of every aspect of our lives. One individual at a time.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

I prefer as all people who buy from me a good Yorkshire or Hereford steak rather than any wild hog crappy meat. 

Best,
Gerold.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> There is a huge market, for a specialized product. I think we could agree that one of the common threads that binds people on this forum is the desire to produce something that is a little bit better than what you can procure at the grocery store. It may also be some people's goal to produce food cheaper than the grocery store, but thanks to the developments in modern agriculture, that is a hard goal to realistically meet. Some of the developments in modern agriculture have changed the way our animals look, and the way that they taste. For instance, hogs have more white meat now. If you are in the artisan cured pork business, that is a bad thing. Red meat cures up better for some of the fancy sausages, and so on. Wild, or unimproved lines of pigs have a higher percentage of red meat, that lends them better to your higher end cuts of meat. As far as I'm concerned, if I had to eat store bought pork, I would do without. If you buy commercial bred hogs and feed them commercial hog feed you're going to come pretty close to store bought pork. Pale and flavorless. The mangalitsa hogs were a specialty hog from Hungary. They were the result of a couple of heritage breeds, crossed on European boar. It's easy to imagine, knowing the hurdles in importing, that the gene pool is probably going to be tight on any of those hogs brought into this country. It would stand to reason that if you were going to make an outcross, after going through the trouble of getting that type of hog in this country, the last thing you would use is a modern commercial hog. Going back to the well to get water for the gene pool is nothing new in terms of livestock breeding. Crossing back to a wild type is a good way to fix things as a breeder. It takes generations to make those genetic contributions come through in a desirable and predictable manner. But not on Michigan's watch. Specialty farm products are the reality of modern agriculture in America, whether you want to embrace it or not. We cannot compete with China on cheap, mass produced food. It's all fun and games until you get big enough to need help, then you have to pay them. Being able to pay someone for a twelve hour day with a handful of rice has it's advantages. China can never come close to us when it comes to producing good quality food, however. But, as seen in the Baker case, the government is not happy with this development. The wild boar problem is completely hyped up. It's been around for a long time. It's going to be around for a long time. And, it makes no difference if they have a speck of Russian blood in them. We are just now hearing about what a horrible problem wild pigs are, (and in all fairness, it is a horrible problem) so that the government can push politics. Their agenda is to push animal registration. Wild hogs stand in their way. As long as wild hogs are running around the woods, how can you talk a farmer into animal registration, on the basis of disease control. So, it's a thorn in their side. And to make it seem worse, you've heard a lot about them. And you've probably seen more, because they passed regulations about running them through sale barns or processing them at USDA facilities, taking away what little incentive there was in controlling them. It's not about food safety, or protecting natural resources. It's about control, of every aspect of our lives. One individual at a time.


Yes, first the government sets speed limits, next they will be controlling where we go.....

Baker had a rare heritage breed, unique in it's hair cover. Everyone wants to preserve the heritage breeds, right? Not Mark, apparently. 

He got caught raising Wild Hogs for the Game Ranches, along with his hairy Mangalitsa that he was marketing any way he could, breeding stock, up scale restaurants, wherever, when the Game Ranch market crashed. 

Nearly everyone was, " Hey, they are a menace, we can't keep them in their fenced areas, maybe this was a bad idea. Can you give us a year to use up all the wild hogs we have, complete the reserved hunts we had planned? You do that and we'll go back to what we were doing a few years ago before this wild hog thing caught on. Deal." But not Mark Baker.

At first he said the DNR was after his mangalitsa hogs. He earned some points with the heritage animal groups. Then he said the wild hogs were for gourmet chefs. So the foodies got on board. Then he went with, " The Man is always trying to bust the chops of the little guy, trying to feed his family" That got some attention.

But then he made a claim that gets repeated over and over and I can't quite understand how anyone wouldn't see through it. He wanted to cross his heritage breed, mangalitsa, known for their thick build and long, thick hair coat, with a bristle coated, thin built wild boars, to, get this, increase their ability to withstand cold. 

I've heard of a Vermont pig farmer that seems to do just fine with his normal haired pigs. So, winter survivability can't be the issue.

The "need" to crossbreed his heritage hogs is trumped up and it is so obvious. What happened to the desire to preserve a rare heritage breed?

We could create a lengthy thread on "Pork, the other white meat", and it is a bit off topic, but is it diet, age or percentage of Wild Boar that creates the redness in pork? 

Let's say my sport is soccer. What is your reaction if my team played a soccer game in your garden and did a thousand dollars worth of damage? But when you complained, I'd just tell you, it must have been someone else's team. But want to protect a practice that is proven to be destroying thousands of dollars of other people's crops? If it was Baker's escaped hogs tilling up your tomato patch, you'd want to put and end to Baker's risky practice.

No, going back to a wild variety is seldom a good way to improve a breed.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

gerold said:


> I prefer as all people who buy from me a good Yorkshire or Hereford steak rather than any wild hog crappy meat.
> 
> Best,
> Gerold.



We have eaten more of them than I can remember. I have my pet ways to cook them, but I wouldnt call them crappy. 

They are the guest of honor at a lot of BBQs around here


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

haypoint said:


> No, going back to a wild variety is seldom a good way to improve a breed.


My son and I picked up a pup one time from a guy that had a pen full of hogs that were half wild and half something or other tame. For all the world they were built like any and all wild hogs I have ever seen, but had the tame hog coloring and coloring only. The hair was still rough and very course. 

Even on wild hogs that weigh 200 pounds, the loins are small, hams are small, no bacon, and the shoulders are no where as meaty as a tame hog. I have never weighed it out, but I would have to guess that the head, hide and guts weigh over half of the live weight.

Crossing them to improve a tame breed is pretty much BS in my opinion.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

BobbyB said:


> In a lot of areas, hogs were turned loose by hog doggers. And now it has turned ugly.
> 
> I do have to laugh tho when they buy a ranch, make a classy gated subdivision out of it and the hogs come in from the surrounding country and start rolling up the carpet grass in the high dollar landscaped yards like a cheap rug.
> 
> The hogs here by and large look like domestic hogs until you get close. Long heads, no butt, heavy shoulders. Lots of color. But down here at least, they are many many generations removed from a tame hog


A lot of black belted or partially belted black hogs here. Most of the hogs are predominantly black, some show red mixed in. One bunch I was trapping showed a lot of the old short lard pig type.

The boy droped one from the back porch before breakfast the other day, black with white feet and a good mane of hair down his back.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Game chickens are a wild type chicken. Slow growing, not much meat, and what little there is, it's tough. The broiler industry is made up of birds not too far removed from game chickens. 

Mangalitsa hogs have wild boar in them. Of course, so do Yorkshires, but the mangalitsa had it added not that long ago. Why is it so hard to fathom a man experimenting with breeding something unique. I'll bet if the government was breeding something diabolical, you'd be all for it. Man eating pig/bear hybrids with wings would be great if Michigan State was developing them. 

I'll say it again, if Michigan was worried about food safety, and protecting natural resources, they would outlaw stocking hogs on high fenced hunting preserves. Plenty of acres have been turned under from hogs that didn't have a speck of Russian blood in them. The practice of raising domestic deer in those same facilities is a zoonotic Armageddon waiting to happen, given the practice of supplementing them with every form of bone meal supplement imaginable to get them to grow the biggest horns possible. Let's infect these half wild animals with a prion disease and turn them loose and trust our fence to protect our export status. Mark Baker is a small threat, when so many larger threats are around.


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## HerseyMI (Jul 22, 2012)

barnbilder said:


> I'll say it again, if Michigan was worried about food safety, and protecting natural resources, they would outlaw stocking hogs on high fenced hunting preserves. Plenty of acres have been turned under from hogs that didn't have a speck of Russian blood in them. The practice of raising domestic deer in those same facilities is a zoonotic Armageddon waiting to happen, given the practice of supplementing them with every form of bone meal supplement imaginable to get them to grow the biggest horns possible. Let's infect these half wild animals with a prion disease and turn them loose and trust our fence to protect our export status. Mark Baker is a small threat, when so many larger threats are around.


Okay... lets just pass a law saying No Exotic Animals PERIOD. " Your worries " are solved, and I'm all for it. 

Somehow .... I don't think you get it still.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

"I'll say it again, if Michigan was worried about food safety, and protecting natural resources, they would outlaw stocking hogs on high fenced hunting preserves."

OK, let me say it again, they did. It is the same law that Baker is upset about. Invasive species act.

Disease in "caged" deer is a concern. That is why Michigan government collects heads from each Game Ranch and tests them for TB and CWD, etc. It is a concern to the hunters and the farmers in Michigan. The DNR has check stations where hunters can bring their deer and samples are taken to insure the deer is TB and CWD free.

But even though wild hogs are known to carry psudorabies, a disease that was culled out of all domestic hogs decades ago, I bet you'd protect Mark Baker's rights to not get his hogs tested. Right?


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Michigan has not outlawed stocking hogs on hunting preserves. There are still hogs on hunting preserves. Hunting preserves are where feral populations come from in most cases, and they keep the population boosted. The folly is thinking that feral domestics are any safer or less destructive than their parent species. They are proven to naturally select back to a wild phenotype if given enough time. And if there was no basis in using wild type genetics to boost hardiness or immunity, wouldn't all of the wild hogs be dead from psuedorabies and PEDV? Why would I be against someone having their animals tested? I fully support testing for disease. I just wouldn't want the government testing peoples animals.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

barnbilder said:


> Michigan has not outlawed stocking hogs on hunting preserves. There are still hogs on hunting preserves. Hunting preserves are where feral populations come from in most cases, and they keep the population boosted. The folly is thinking that feral domestics are any safer or less destructive than their parent species. They are proven to naturally select back to a wild phenotype if given enough time. And if there was no basis in using wild type genetics to boost hardiness or immunity, wouldn't all of the wild hogs be dead from psuedorabies and PEDV? Why would I be against someone having their animals tested? I fully support testing for disease. I just wouldn't want the government testing peoples animals.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Read post #134 again and you will see that a lot of people like to do things there way. They like to move stuff around so ''they'' can enjoy hunting without paying the big bucks. If they move just a few hogs to there area then they have a perfect set up. I wonder where these people would find the ''type'' of hog they want to hunt?


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

With the hog dog people, they are going to be able to find hogs if they are there. They will select for wild type with a castrating knife. Makes no difference if they are a Russian or not to begin with. They will help evolution along by killing or castrating the boar with a white belt, and turning loose the one that looks "wild".You do know that this is the object, to catch the hogs, it's not just about hunting without spending money.? It's catch and release hunting. If they have to buy something, they will buy the wildest thing available. But, they would buy Yorkshires and turn them loose if that was all they had. And Yorkshires will root up a corn field, eat turkey eggs, carry psuedorabies and all of that stuff just fine.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

barnbilder said:


> With the hog dog people, they are going to be able to find hogs if they are there. They will select for wild type with a castrating knife. Makes no difference if they are a Russian or not to begin with. They will help evolution along by killing or castrating the boar with a white belt, and turning loose the one that looks "wild".You do know that this is the object, to catch the hogs, it's not just about hunting without spending money.? It's catch and release hunting. If they have to buy something, they will buy the wildest thing available. But, they would buy Yorkshires and turn them loose if that was all they had. And Yorkshires will root up a corn field, eat turkey eggs, carry psuedorabies and all of that stuff just fine.


You make a lot of broad statements. The guys in East Texas especially will keep all odd colored hogs intact and cut the normal color. There are not as many hogs in most of East Texas as there in most other areas and they will cut most boars and turn them loose to catch again. Some ear mark them, but personally, I wouldnt go that far just do to liability issues. 

Belted or " listed hogs " are they are called are highly prized. Same with spotted, blondes and silver tinged hogs. And the occasional mule foot will get all the attention. Any color other than the normal black, dark brown or reddish colored hogs are bragged about. But again, this is mostly the way in East Texas. 

Here in the Brush Country, just North of me in the Hill Country,out in West Texas and up in the Panhandle, they are killed on the spot or hauled in to be sold to one of the wild hog buyers. The hog numbers are far greater in these areas and most hog doggers get access to properties for performing hog control. That means taking them out permanently. Most landowners will run you off if they catch you turning hogs loose. 

I have hog dogs myself and I know a lot of people that do it as well.


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## solsikkefarms (Jun 1, 2013)

On the subject I was reading a recent article that reflected how Wisconsin is also handling the subject.

_"Wisconsin has them, too, in much smaller numbers. Feral pigs have been reported in 56 counties, but the only known breeding population in the state is in Crawford County, said Brad Koele, a Department of Natural Resources wildlife specialist.

Still, state officials are mindful of the fact that feral pigs multiply quickly and can cause great damage in an area before they're noticed.

In 2007, a wild boar was linked to two pseudorabies outbreaks in Clark County. The feral pigs in Crawford County likely came from game farms and were purposely released or escaped when the farms closed. The pigs were blamed for damage to orchards in the area.

"This is one species where we use the 'E word,' and that stands for eradication. There's nothing good about feral swine," said Jason Suckow, a wildlife biologist for the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Wildlife Services in Madison.

Under Wisconsin law, Russian boars are considered an invasive species. But unlike in Michigan, farms here can raise them for meat if they have a permit from the Department of Natural Resources."_

from Journal Sentinel: http://www.jsonline.com/business/fa...-pigs-b9956379z1-217588571.html#ixzz2vPyuGLbY 


That population in Crawford county was from a farmer who is believed to have intentional released them to establish a population for hunting. Buts it's becoming increasingly difficult to locate even signs of feral pigs in that area. It's interesting to look at the comparisons to how both states are handling the issue.

I fully support small scale farmers and the freedoms in which they can farm, but I have to say that the law is the law and you must work inside it. There could have been some common sense here on both sides to make this a simple non issue.


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

This pic is from a buddy of mine about an hour away. He hunts range land around lots of peanut fields and had a very good night last night. He runs some dogs out of my kennel I might add as well as some he raised :thumb:

Normally a good night's hunt would be 2 maybe 3. But these are typical of the hogs in this area.


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## solsikkefarms (Jun 1, 2013)

Looks good BobbyB! Cant wait for my annual hunting/fishing trip to Texas... All that bacon! My mouth is watering already.


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