# Our first major setback



## kdalton324 (Jun 20, 2015)

So my wife and I started our homesteading process about 6 months ago. This involved getting mentally ready to raise animals to meat and purchasing the animals. We started with 36 chickens, 8 ducks, and 8 rabbits. We butchered 5 ducks as soon as they were ready, and had just started to butcher our meat chickens within the last few weeks. We are planning on keeping a small flock of egg layers, about 19, that included our 12 hens, 1 rooster, and 6 bantam chickens that my wife and mother in law thought were âcuteâ. 
We have been free ranging our laying flock for about 3 months now and so far the only intruder has been a groundhog or two. The chickens stay on our property surprisingly well. Well today a neighborâs dog about a quarter mile down the road blew through his underground fence, only method of containment, and proceeded to kill 4 of our layers, and injure one bantam rooster and our main flock rooster. Needless to say I was ready to kill that dog if it was still on the property. Luckily we were able to contact the owner, who took complete responsibility and made the before we even brought it up asked us to put a bill together to pay for the birds. 
So my question to all of you is, is it reasonable to calculate out how many eggs we would lose over 20 weeks, the time it will take to raise 4 more layers, along with the feed cost that we lost. we calculated it out to about $160 in egg loss, then about 140 lbs of chicken feed.
So in response to the dog killing chickens I am going to be slammed this week putting up a fence around one acre of our property to keep the chickens in and the dogs out. We also have started throwing around the idea of getting a farm dog, we plan on getting sheep and possible a cow in the very near future.


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## Lady89 (Feb 22, 2014)

about $20 a bird is what i billed up when something similar happened. it is just high enough to make them think, maybe i should keep my dog up better, but still low enough for you to justify it by pointing out the cost of chicken at the store and the fact free rang chicken cost a lot more


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## kdalton324 (Jun 20, 2015)

Were your birds free range organic? We opted to grow our own when many of my son's allergies emerged and we found that eating organic greatly reduced his allergic reaction.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

Bummer...sorry for your loss.
At least they are willing to take responsibility.

What are you charging for your eggs?
Actually....what is your _profit_ for those eggs?
What is the 140 pounds of feed, what 4 birds ate from hatch to dog death??

You could probably buy Point Of Lay pullets for about $20 ea......
.....if they are available locally.

Cost me about $6 in feed to raise 1 layer to POL.
Cost me about $1.80 in feed per dozen eggs.
I pay about $18/50# of feed.....$12 for scratch


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## kdalton324 (Jun 20, 2015)

we were planning on charging 5 dollars per dozen. The eggs were calculated at 20 weeks at 75% laying times 4 hens. I haven't broken down the food cost yet just because I haven't gone back through my emails to get my price per lb of food. the 140 lbs of feed was calculated at .25 lbs or feed per bird per day times 20 weeks times 4 hens.


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

Sorry this has happened. You have, in our experience, a jewel of a neighbor to right away offer to reimburse you. I agree with others that about $20 per lost chicken seems about right.


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## Agriculture (Jun 8, 2015)

If you were going to court and had a high priced lawyer arguing your case he might be able to argue for all sorts of extraneous value added claims like loss of income, etc, with the goal of settling down for less, yet still squeezing as much out of the defendant as possible, but not really expecting to get the full amount, no matter how sure you were that you were owed it. Of course the cost of the lawyer would far outweigh whatever you could ever hope to get for the most valuable chickens out there. In reality you would be doing very well to get 20 or 25 bucks each. If the dog owner agrees to that consider yourself lucky, and chalk it up to learning your first good lesson in agriculture and homesteading, which is that true free range is a fallacy dreamed up by scammers or those who think that farming is all misty mornings and rainbows over the barn.

That's a big if, by the way. You've already beat the odds in getting an owner who takes responsibility, at least verbally, and for now. Things have a way of changing when they have some time to think about it, and/or when they hear that a chicken is worth 25 bucks and not a dollar or three. If you start making all kinds of outrageous claims to inflate their value, like these chickens produce magic free range organic gluten free eggs which cure allergies in your children, he's likely to laugh you off or tell you off.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Have you sold any eggs at $5 a dozen?


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

Either charge $20 a bird and consider it cheap tuition to the school of Poultry 101. AND/OR,
check with the local dog warden and see if your state has a compensatory fund which originates from licensing dogs. In PA, it is 1) legal to shoot a dog that is killing your animals (but don't know if that only includes if they are fenced?) and 2) find out if that is true, the value they consider as compensation. That may be what you should charge.

I think you got a cheap lesson on managing animals. You'd be without any compensation from the owner (state) if the killing had been done by a fox, coyote, hawk, etc. And you don't need an acre for that many birds, IMHO.


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## kdalton324 (Jun 20, 2015)

They haven't laid yet the farm we get our meat from sell them at 5.50 a dozen and sells out of them. These aren't just run of the mill free range birds they are organic soy free. I could see 20 a bird if they were regular birds. But I also have the fact than under Delaware law I can get his dog declared as dangerous if I wanted to. And that would cost him thousands or force him to surrender the dog.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

What are butchered chickens worth at the Farmers Market? Subtract $3.00 each for butchering and subtract $2.00 each for the time they sit at the Farmers Market selling stuff. Then subtract $2.00 each for the cooler, bags of ice and cost hauling the dressed chicken to the Farmers Market. If the local Farmers Market charges for booth space, subtract $2.00 each for that.

So, if they are selling butchered chickens for $10.00, for example, their value back at the farm is $1.00 each.

If you were wanting to measure their value by the eggs they produce, that's different. In the spring, hens lay lots of eggs and $3.00 a dozen is barely more than the feed they eat. Certainly, it is rare that anyone recoups the cost of chicks, time and energy getting them to adults. Keeping hens year around, you'll soon discover, they eat more than they lay in cold dark months. The surviving hens will likely cost you more in feed than they'll produce this winter. I'd estimate that that dog saved you approximately $50. in feed that won't be wasted on under producing hens.

The dog owner has gone to the effort and expense of trying to confine his dog. A friend just bought a replacement invisible fence collar for $500. The dog owner is taking responsibility, a big plus. most people deny or drag their feet.

Charge him $10 a bird. Use that money towards fencing. This dog, another dog or any number of wild animals will kill your birds, sooner or later.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I have no problem with a set price for the cost of the bird and what the bird would have given in eggs for the 20 weeks it takes to replace it. However getting that and the feed that you would be feeding anyway, no....James


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

In a private settlement transaction you can ask for any amount you want, and the other party can decline. If it went to court, it could be argued that you had no reasonable expectation to get any eggs, because you had free range chickens that were there for the taking by any animal that wanted them. I don't think this guy will want court involved because of your "dangerous dog" regulations. I think it would be good to mention all of the lost value from your hens, along with replacement value, and come to some sort of agreement, with the understanding that the next time it will be more costly.


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## kdalton324 (Jun 20, 2015)

The feed is what we lost by feeding chickens that never got a chance to produce. And we haven't had a single predator problem yet. And I understand they will come in the winter, which is why fencing was always a plan. And if it were a fox or a coyote that would be a lesson. This is a lesson of a irresponsible dog owner not controlling his animal. I had a legal right to shoot it if it was on my property when my wife woke me up, I work nights, and if it ever comes back it'll get a lead lesson. 
And if your only containment on a prey driven dog is an Invisible fence then you are a irresponsible dog owner. Period. Even a five foot fence might not be enough to contain a dog. If their prone to run they need to be monitored.


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## tree-farmer (Jul 5, 2015)

$20 each sounds more than fair. I don't think it's reasonable to ask for more than the replacement cost of point of lay pullets. We'd have trouble selling those for more than $20. Usually we sell slightly younger pullets for $15.

We free range our birds successfully, but we have 3 guardian dogs. Our friends that don't eventually lose their chickens to foxes.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

20 bucks per bird is reasonable. You "can't count your eggs before they are laid".
Also, you and hopefully your neighbor have learned a valuable lesson:

Free Range = Free Lunch.

It may sound harsh, but if you value your birds, you need to protect your birds. You are lucky you didn't lose all of them. Next time (and there WILL be a next time) - you might.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

My point was, You should get what you had in the chickens at time of death and the profit you would have gotten from the eggs. Shouldn't get the chicken AND all the egg money....James


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

How long have you lived on this place? 6 months?


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

When you negotiate with your neighbor, try to let the emotional end of things go. You sound like you think he/she was totally irresponsible. Some of us are saying, he was responsible and an accident occurred. Some of us may also be thinking YOU were irresponsible by not fencing.
Get a reasonable amount of money and move on. Getting into a neighbor dispute will likely be your worst nightmare...and could last many years.

In good faith he offered to pay for the damage. Not in good faith, you expect him to pay for what might have been.


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## kdalton324 (Jun 20, 2015)

One. It has nothing to do with good faith. The chickens have a price and that's all it is. 
Two. I appreciate all the input but I think that twenty dollars a bird is absolutely ridiculous. 
Maybe I should have fenced from the beginning, but we also never had any predator issues before. And I don't think that I should have to have fencing as my primary concern to keep a domestic animal out. That's the owner of dogs responsibility to control them. Our chickens have never left our property. 
And you don't have to agree with me on these points.


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

What do you think your birds were worth?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

The dog was your first predator. You got away cheap.


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## Lady89 (Feb 22, 2014)

kdalton324 said:


> One. It has nothing to do with good faith. The chickens have a price and that's all it is.
> Two. I appreciate all the input but I think that twenty dollars a bird is absolutely ridiculous.
> Maybe I should have fenced from the beginning, but we also never had any predator issues before. And I don't think that I should have to have fencing as my primary concern to keep a domestic animal out. That's the owner of dogs responsibility to control them. Our chickens have never left our property.
> And you don't have to agree with me on these points.



and what do you plan to do next time when it is just some random mut dog no one clams that eats your life stock? no one to ask to pay for then then but your self. What about when it is a fox, raccoon, opossum, mink, bear or badger?

Just because you don't have predator problems yet doesn't mean you won't. I had chickens 2 years no problems what so ever then one spring i had a family of gray foxes move into the grave yard on one side of me and a family of red foxes move into the field on the other side. That same year i trapped around 10 raccoons, 3 opossums and a skunk in my barn. All this after 2 years of no land predators what so ever.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

kdalton324 said:


> chickens I am going to be slammed this week putting up a fence around one acre of our property to keep the chickens in and the dogs out. We also have started throwing around the idea of getting a farm dog, we plan on getting sheep and possible a cow in the very near future.


I would say $20 would be great. Lost chickens to other peoples dogs and they just say sorry and move along. 

I will say what comes around goes around though. 

If you plan to get a cow,sheep, or a dog in the future. At some point in time they will escape.... gates get left open, fence gets damaged sheep in the middle of the road, the new puppy is just plan stupid and the shock collar doesn't bother him one bit, cow gets looked at cross-eyed and decides to jump a 4 foot tall fence with hot wire across the top, pigs push up a rock on the hot wire to ground it then go under the fence, etc.


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## kdalton324 (Jun 20, 2015)

If it is some random dog no one claims the next time I see it I'll kill it. I'll deal with wild life and strays as they come. I shouldn't have to deal with someone else's pet that they can't control. Maybe I just should have shot the dog when he first came on my property. Legally I am allowed to.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2016)

$20 each is very reasonable.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

kdalton324 said:


> If it is some random dog no one claims the next time I see it I'll kill it. I'll deal with wild life and strays as they come. I shouldn't have to deal with someone else's pet that they can't control. Maybe I just should have shot the dog when he first came on my property. Legally I am allowed to.


You seem to be looking for a get rich fast scheme. Your animals are only worth replacement value - what it would cost to buy similar chickens of the same age.

You really can't charge for the feed to raise them - as they have to eat and that is just a cost of doing business. You really can't charge for the loss of future eggs either - sometimes birds just die - they are fine when you last looked and you go out and one is dead.

Remember your sentence "I shouldn't have to deal with someone else's pet that they can't control." when one of your animals gets out on the road and the person swerves to miss it and hits a tree. Under your scenario, they can charge you for the replacement of the whole car, the gas they have put in it for a while, the cost to purchase the car, and the "loss" of revenue - they were going to use their car to drive the amish around.

As has been said - who are going to collect money from when a raccoon/skunk/fox/hawk/owl/or coyote kills your chickens? Who are you going to collect money from when you go out some morning and find one of your chickens dead - no injuries, just dead?

You better come up with your replacement cost - what it would cost you to buy new chickens of the same type/same age and get the bill turned in before the owner of the dog has time to think.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

kdalton324 said:


> If it is some random dog no one claims the next time I see it I'll kill it. I'll deal with wild life and strays as they come. I shouldn't have to deal with someone else's pet that they can't control. Maybe I just should have shot the dog when he first came on my property. Legally I am allowed to.


That sounds like you are hitting out at the posters because you got the answer you asked for, but do not like. Shooting one dog will not prevent another dog from attacking.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

You're in shock from your first hardest lesson in raising food animals.
There's a lot to be said for graciousness under duress and the value of community in the future. Your neighbor has taken responsibility, be grateful. Don't burn any bridges you may later regret losing even more dearly.

ETA: Ask the guy who you buy meat from, who sells eggs for $5.50..... what would he do?


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

You should certainly do what you think is best, but just keep in the back of your mind that some of us have been doing this chicken thing for a long time. 

Good neighbor relationships are worth a lot more than a couple of chickens. Also, the old saw that "Good Fences make Good Neighbors" is something to ponder.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I'm confused. If you got replacement cost for the hens, couldn't you BUY replacement hens? Wouldn't replacement hens solve both the problem of feed investment AND future egg sales? Sure I would pad it a little, to cover the aggravation of needing to look for replacement hens, might even show the guy what Murray McMurray charges to ship POL pullets of the breed I lost. Might even take his money and go buy replacements locally, which around here would run about 10 bucks. But I don't think you will be able to pay for your kid's braces out of this situation.

Unfortunately, dogs are predators. Have been for thousands of years or more. It's why they were domesticated, they like killing stuff, that was useful once. We live in a society where people value dogs highly. More so than people in some cases. As a result, there are a lot of dogs. It is an unfortunate situation that goes along with livestock production. You are lucky you had a neighbor's dog kill your stuff, and you know the culprit. There are dogs out there that don't have an owner bankrolling them, and some of those are sneaky, kill your stuff in the middle of the night or when no one is around. Can be as hard to catch or kill as any coyote. 

With chickens, you have two options. Fence them in and predators out, or keep extras.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

In some places, this has been how chicken ordinances get passed, local officials get tired of people arguing about the price of dog killed chickens and dog owners that had to pay ridiculous replacement fees calling those officials every time they hear a chicken.


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## kdalton324 (Jun 20, 2015)

The states everyone else live in must have really cranky laws. In my state he is responsible whether I bill him tomorrow or don't get it to him for two weeks. He is legally responsible and it's a case that doesn't need a lawyer as someone earlier had mentioned. And Michael, there are no options but to get day olde and raise them from there. We deal with extreme allergies in my son, the kind that would kill him, and it has nothing to do with peanuts. So everything on our homestead is monitored for what is in the food. Which is why even if we only looked at a replacement cost for a 20 week old bird, it would still be close to $40. 
It would be fine if we could buy any old hen that we found that was 20 weeks old. But we can't. 
And next time you accuse someone of trying a "get rich fast scheme" maybe find out a little about their situation first. Because anyone who knows me knows that I wouldn't do that. 
And if someone swerved to avoid my chickens I would be liable for the damage to their car. But the gas didn't make the car grow and become more than just a day old engine.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Why can't you get any old hen? You are not getting eggs yet. That means you can get a hen the same age and feed the special feed until it lays. The eggs are what you are worried about with regards to allergies correct?


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

kdalton324 said:


> We also have started throwing around the idea of getting a farm dog, we plan on getting sheep and possible a cow in the very near future.


Wait until your dog gets out and kills the neighbors chickens. All the neighbors will hear about what you did and do the same to you. And don't tell me "your dog would never do that". Your dog may even kill some of your own chickens. Be fair, be thankful. You still have the rest of the flock. You were lucky, this time. There will be a next time....James


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## kdalton324 (Jun 20, 2015)

painterswife said:


> Why can't you get any old hen? You are not getting eggs yet. That means you can get a hen the same age and feed the special feed until it lays. The eggs are what you are worried about with regards to allergies correct?



The allergies are so severe that they have to be completely raised on a specific feed. We feed a completely organic non soy based feed. Think of how serious a peanut allergy is and apply it to almost every allergy that he has. If the chicken has had a non organic feed or a soy based feed the proteins from the feed still affect the chicken and the future eggs. It's a lot more complicated then I knew until we had to learn about it with my son.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

These are egg layers though. The science proves that all soy isoflavones will be gone from eggs 10 days after switching to feed with no soy.

Please note. I understand that you don't want any chance of your son getting sick. I am however addressing what is fair to ask the dog owner for.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> One. It has nothing to do with good faith. The chickens have a price and that's all it is.
> Two. I appreciate all the input but I think that twenty dollars a bird is absolutely ridiculous.


You can buy replacement laying birds for $20 and you haven't lost any eggs because they haven't started laying. 

In a few weeks they will be "organic soy free whatever you want them to be" chickens, just like all your others.

I suspect you will have a difficult time having the dog declared "dangerous" with just one instance where no people were injured. 

Even if you did, all the owner would have to do is put up some fencing, which wouldn't cost thousands of dollars.



> And I don't think that I should have to have fencing as my primary concern to keep a domestic animal out.


Would you be happier had it been a Fox or Coyote?
The fact you hadn't lost any birds until now doesn't mean they are safe with your set-up.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

âIâm going to shoot the neighborâs dog.â is never the end of a problem, it always is the beginning of a war. When you load that rifle, be ready to take this battle much farther. Push comes to shove every time. Legal right? Yes. Solution? Nope. Anyone with experience with chickens knows that free range and neighboring dogs is going to be a problem.
I get the impression that if wildlife killed the birds due to a lack of protection, you learn a lesson. What is that lesson? Birds have to die for you to have a teachable moment?
I have seen Invisible fence work very well. Dogs escape all sorts of fences. What do you have to keep your birds from leaving your property?
This is a major setback? A two week old Jersey calf, cradled in my lap, stops breathing after a week of Vet visits and medication. My teachable moment about scours. A 3 year old registered Work Horse mare, carrying a colt (stud fee $1000) drowns in 3 feet of water in mid-winter. My teachable moment about open springs. I receive an offer to buy as many organic eggs I can produce. I raise 200 chickens on organic feed. In the Spring, birds start to lay. I deliver the first two dozen eggs. A few days later I deliver four dozen eggs, but the market owner refuses them because he hasnât sold the first delivery of eggs. Basically, there is no market for two dozen a week, much less the 100 dozen I had coming into production. My teachable moment about contracts and organic egg sales. After buying 200 loads of manure from the dairy farm, adding $2000 in ground lime, plowing the 40 acres, buying expensive certified seed, the unseasonably wet spring prevents planting at all. I was depending on harvest sales to pay the property taxes. Teachable moment was that nothing in farming is forseeable. I bought 1000 apple tree seedlings, 5 cubic yards of topsoil and compost, 1000 plastic 5 galon nursery containers. On my knees, I planted the trees into the containers. Then, on my knees, I carefully grafted 200 different heritage varieties on each of the 1000 trees. All summer, I spent hours every few days, watering and weeding. I had over a 95% success rate. By fall, the trees had grown to 4 feet tall. I surrounded the trees with a tall fence. One night, deer jumped my fence, ate the tops off the trees, killing every one. Teachable moment that a 5 or 6 foot fence isnât enough. 


Recently, a guy drove from Michigan to South Dakota to attend a Show Steer Sale. He wanted to insure that his son would have a State Champion steer. He paid $30,000. for a quality steer. After he got it home, it was discovered that all those steers at that sale had been raised at a farm that was later discovered to have cattle infected with tuberculosis. The government bought the steer and had it destroyed. Do you think they paid him $30,000? Guess again, he got $1.18 a pound for this 600 pound steer. What he paid has nothing to do with market value.
We agree that $20 per bird is ridiculous. You think it is crazy low and I think it is crazy high.
You might think you shouldnât have to fence out predators, including the neighborâs dog. I have the right to step out into traffic; the pedestrian has the right of way. Right? 
âAnd we haven't had a single predator problem yet. And I understand they will come in the winter, which is why fencing was always a plan.â There is an old farmerâs saying, it pertains to doing something that you should have done earlier and now it is too late, âclosing the barn door after the horse has gone.â Expecting that predators will wait until a particular season is silly.
You strongly believe that the meat from chickens fed soybean meal as a small part of their diet will create an allergic reaction to someone eating the meat. I think that is a big pile of BS, so on that weâll have to agree to disagree.
That any hen, raised on a diet with a small amount of soy bean meal, switched over to your costly soy free, organic feed will produce eggs that due to previous digestion of soy bean meal will trigger an allergic to someone with a soy bean allergy eating the eggs is preposterous.
I can trade a cow for a hand full of magic beans, but that doesnât make the beans valuable.
You asked for opinions. You got opinions. Based on the statement at the bottom of each of your posts, I think I can tell how this is going to turn out. Please keep us updated. Could be a teachable moment.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

kdalton324 said:


> The allergies are so severe that they have to be completely raised on a specific feed. We feed a completely organic non soy based feed. Think of how serious a peanut allergy is and apply it to almost every allergy that he has. If the chicken has had a non organic feed or a soy based feed the proteins from the feed still affect the chicken and the future eggs. It's a lot more complicated then I knew until we had to learn about it with my son.



We are in the same boat but it is myself and all children that have the allergy problem. We can't feed our livestock corn or soy. Not sure there is a farmer in the state of Iowa that isn't feeding their chickens one or both ingredients.
People still don't care about paying for the replacement chickens.:bored:

What works for us is that we have more chickens then we need ~40 (haven't counted for awhile) so it isn't a huge deal if we lose some. We also run a few ducks with the chickens they are our "red shirts". If something goes after them it always gets the ducks first.

For us we have found two weeks on new feed for dairy and eggs and then things are ok. For meat it takes longer.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

kdalton324 said:


> If it is some random dog no one claims the next time I see it I'll kill it. I'll deal with wild life and strays as they come. I shouldn't have to deal with someone else's pet that they can't control. Maybe I just should have shot the dog when he first came on my property. Legally I am allowed to.


Yes, perhaps you should have killed the dog, but you didn't.
That's unrelated to the value of the birds killed

Also, you can't kill an animal just for "being on your property"
Most states require they be in the act of destroying your property or chasing your animals.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

I was asking how long you have been on your land, because I bet the neighbor has been around alot longer then you and his dog has had the run of all the land not knowing any bounds. I have owned my place for 30 years I had to go help parents in a different state for 5 years when I came back the new neighbors animals where all over my place, took alot to make the new folks keep their farm animals at home. But wound up that I had to put the fences up to keep my critters safe. Some people talk a good talk about how sorry they are and they will reimburse you you very lucky if they really do.


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## harry_homestead (Jul 11, 2016)

ask the neighbor to pay the debt with labor by helping to fence in your property.


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

I have never dealt with allergies that severe and understand that because of that your chickens are probably worth much more than average. However, I think you should be grateful that your neighbor owned up to the issue and is trying to correct it - don't burn any bridges, good neighbors are priceless.

I would also hurry up and put up your fences, maybe even an enclosure. If your chickens free range, they might get hold of something to eat that may be life threatening to your son. If you cannot consume meat or eggs from a chicken that has ever come in contact with corn or soy (or whatever your child is allergic to), I would worry about someone tossing something on the ground (piece of bread, bird seed, etc.). My chickens would be securely locked up where they cannot consume anything I did not give them.


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

I'm wondering if the OP has found a resolution.


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## CountryMom22 (Nov 27, 2014)

In this instance, you are equally at fault. You should have put the fence up before bringing the chickens home. Good fences make good neighbors. It is not the neighbor's fault that you need special chickens for your situation, or that you are unable to buy replacement point of lay birds because of that.

In some free range states, if you don't want your neighbor's cows on your property it is your responsibility to fence them out. That is always the best plan when dealing with livestock. It is your job to protect them. Your neighbor's dog might have gotten out of the electric fencing but your chickens were not protected from predators, and dogs can't read surveys to know where the property lines are. Saying that you would fence your chickens before any predator problems this winter is wrong. Predators come at all times of the year, until this dog issue, they just hadn't found your chickens ... yet.

You've just had your first homesteading lesson and it hurts. Then again, it always does. Sorry for your loss, but thankful that it wasn't worse.

Consider this person to be a good neighbor since he is willing to take responsibility. Many people don't.

Even free range chickens free range behind a fence. Period.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Spring and summer is when everything is looking for easy meals close to home to feed growing young. Fall can see an increase in hawks for much of the country, as they migrate far to the south for winter. 

Winter is probably the lowest period of chicken predation. Most of the major culprits have already migrated, in the case of many raptors, or like the 'possums, skunks and '***** are in a semi dormant state. The foxes and coyotes have raised their young and those young have dispersed. Weasels and minks are traveling long distances looking for mates. In terms of mouths to feed, late winter to early spring sees the lowest predator populations.

Waiting until winter to build a fence to keep predators out is poor planning.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

barnbilder said:


> Spring and summer is when everything is looking for easy meals close to home to feed growing young. Fall can see an increase in hawks for much of the country, as they migrate far to the south for winter.
> 
> Winter is probably the lowest period of chicken predation. Most of the major culprits have already migrated, in the case of many raptors, or like the 'possums, skunks and '***** are in a semi dormant state. The foxes and coyotes have raised their young and those young have dispersed. Weasels and minks are traveling long distances looking for mates. In terms of mouths to feed, late winter to early spring sees the lowest predator populations.
> 
> Waiting until winter to build a fence to keep predators out is poor planning.


Winter is my worst time. They are all hungry. I regularly have fox, skunk and ermine trying chew their way in through the coop. I always have bobcat it the winter and they just don't like to give up.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Yeah, the north country is a little different when the big freeze sets in. If I lived in Wyoming, I would raise chickens specifically to feed to bobcats. They are easy to trap, and usually worth $300 to $1,000 bucks.


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## momku (Jul 30, 2014)

Wondering what came of this??


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

momku said:


> Wondering what came of this??


Looks like they could not come to an agreement. 

Quote is from this thread in the sheep forum : http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/li...ent-dog-attack-few-days-after-we-put-ram.html


#10 Report Post 
Unread 09/10/16, 11:50 PM
kdalton324 kdalton324 is offline
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Delaware
Posts: 77

I feel your pain. We just had a dog attack out chicken flock. The owner originally took responsibility but then a few days later got really nasty with my wife on the phone. We ended up calling animal control and are going to have to file a claim in court. We tried to settle out of court but he went off on my wife when she gave him the damage bill. Now he will end up with a few hundred dollars in fines from animal control and whatever we get in court.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

And another neighbor war is born.
Was afraid that was gonna happen.


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

I would really like to see what they decided to bill the neighbor for, as OP was thinking of asking for the sky. I'm wondering if the bill was so high that the neighbor thought it was ridiculous, and that's why there was no agreement.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

And now, with the authorities being annoyed by this petty personal dispute, depending on if there are more dog owners or chicken owners in his area, democracy will take it's course and determine if dogs or chickens should be banned


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

barnbilder said:


> And now, with the authorities being annoyed by this petty personal dispute, depending on if there are more dog owners or chicken owners in his area, democracy will take it's course and determine if dogs or chickens should be banned


We need an "agree" button. I did not want to click on "Like" because I don't "like" what you are saying may happen. But I agree that it is a likely outcome.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Purdue Chicken is non gmo and non antibiotic. I would say just buy Purdue chicken to eat.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Forcast said:


> Purdue Chicken is non gmo and non antibiotic. I would say just buy Purdue chicken to eat.


I think he also needed it to be non-soy and organic.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

Yet another post where we don't get to hear the end result.

I'm sure right after the attack, the neighbor was more than willing to compensate them for their dead chickens. Of course, the neighbor was probably thinking $10.00 / chicken.

One does wonder what amount was given.

Well, there are two neighbors who won't be talking to each other again. I'll bet this is the talk of the neighborhood.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

thought it was way more than $10 a bird. $10 is reasonable


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I've got some $300 a bird chickens. You can bet your sweet bippy that there aren't many of them living in anything that could be breached by less than a D-9 Cat. Plenty of $10 birds running loose to help identify potential problems.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Illegal fighting cocks are valued, bought and sold for thousands.

By the way, Forcast, the OP did not suggest $10 as a value.


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## kdalton324 (Jun 20, 2015)

There hasn't been an update because there is nothing to update yet. And $10 a bird is ridiculous. That wouldn't even cover the meat value if they were meat birds.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

kdalton324 said:


> There hasn't been an update because there is nothing to update yet. And $10 a bird is ridiculous. That wouldn't even cover the meat value if they were meat birds.


They were not meat birds though, correct. You said you only lost layers.


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## Lady89 (Feb 22, 2014)

Forcast said:


> thought it was way more than $10 a bird. $10 is reasonable


when a dog killed some of my chickens i ask for $20 a bird
it seems to be about the going price for a laying hen in my area


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2016)

Lady89 said:


> when a dog killed some of my chickens i ask for $20 a bird
> it seems to be about the going price for a laying hen in my area


$15 to $20 around here.


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## kdalton324 (Jun 20, 2015)

painterswife said:


> They were not meat birds though, correct. You said you only lost layers.


That is correct. Layers are worth more than meat birds. My point there was that the amount suggested ($10) wouldn't even cover their worth if they were meat birds.


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## rockpile1 (Aug 24, 2016)

Dang around here that would be crazy $$$. The very most you would get out of a Pullet getting ready to start laying would be $7, more like $5 and Eggs are $1.50 Doz. Free Range.

I can buy Fryers ready to butcher for $3 a piece that is if I buy 50+ birds.

rockpile


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

kdalton324 said:


> That is correct. Layers are worth more than meat birds. My point there was that the amount suggested ($10) wouldn't even cover their worth if they were meat birds.


So what price did you ask?


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2016)

haypoint said:


> Illegal fighting cocks are valued, bought and sold for thousands.


It's not illegal to own them. It's not even illegal to buy, sell and trade them.

I have one. He's completely legal. When I get a proper (roomy) pen built, I'll get some hens to go with him.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

ladycat said:


> It's not illegal to own them. It's not even illegal to buy, sell and trade them.
> 
> I have one. He's completely legal. When I get a proper (roomy) pen built, I'll get some hens to go with him.


Watcha got? Watch out, they are like baseball cards, or pokemon, or something.


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2016)

barnbilder said:


> Watcha got? Watch out, they are like baseball cards, or pokemon, or something.


I don't know what he is. The man he came from fights them on Indian land, which he says is legal, but I'm not so sure about that.

I know he's got some high-falutin expensive fighters, but he doesn't give the best away. He's got White Hackles that I know of, I forget what else.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I love some whitehackles. The whole Indian land thing comes down to enforcement, even though federal laws are being broken, it comes down to whether or not tribal authorities think it is a stupid federal law or not. There is a lot of history in some of those breeds, and some of them are very unique. It would be a shame for them to be lost, many of them are much rarer than the GFF flavor of the day breeds, that are really quite common.


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## longhairboy (Feb 16, 2015)

Jeez on Kijiji you can buy laying hens for $3 here, mind you they're a year old but still


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

ladycat said:


> It's not illegal to own them. It's not even illegal to buy, sell and trade them.
> 
> I have one. He's completely legal. When I get a proper (roomy) pen built, I'll get some hens to go with him.


 I didn't mean that it is illegal to own a breed of chickens that are used in fighting. I was talking about actual Grand Champion winning fighting cocks. 

I doubt any unproven cocks or losers are valuable. When I wrote, " Illegal fighting cocks are valued, bought and sold for thousands." I was referring to cocks used in illegal fighting that are winners. Cock fighting is illegal. Just wanted to be clearer than my original post apparently was.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

While you won't see thousands of dollars for "unproven" cocks, most of them are in the neighborhood of $125 to $300 for a pure strain bird. Get into something scarcer and you might get up to $500. But you have to have pure birds that look the part, and have some degree of authentication, in other words "bought from so and so", not "wandered in from the neighbors". This is mainly a market for people that want to hold on to what they believe to be 'heritage' breeds, not for fighting. This is not saying that some don't end up fighting, but "sold for breeding purposes only" is the usual disclaimer. Before anyone thinks they have found the next get rich quick poultry scheme, understand that you have to love these birds to keep them, and you will work hard for your money, just on penning arrangements. Mine are penned not because I'm afraid of dogs killing them, it's because I'm afraid of them killing each other. I let pullets run free, if they raise four or five clutches of chicks, then they have proven themselves as valuable breeders, and might be marketed, or selectively bred.


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

kdalton, why have you not told us what you asked from the neighbor?
You brought the situation to the forum and now that you didn't get the replies you wanted, you don't finish the story.


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## BlueRidgeFarms (Mar 23, 2014)

anniew said:


> kdalton, why have you not told us what you asked from the neighbor?
> You brought the situation to the forum and now that you didn't get the replies you wanted, you don't finish the story.


Reading through the first page, it looks like they were going to ask approximately $200. They lost 4 pullets and a bantam rooster and the "main flock rooster" were injured. 

That's my best understanding so far. It sounds as if the neighbor thought that was unreasonable, and refused to pay it.

We had a very similar situation occur last winter, lost both roosters and about 8 pullets that had just started laying. We checked with the breeder who sold us the birds, and he was charging $8 for roosters and $10 for pullets of that age. So that's what we charged the neighbor. He had no problem with writing out that check.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> While you won't see thousands of dollars for "unproven" cocks, most of them are in the neighborhood of $125 to $300 for a pure strain bird. Get into something scarcer and you might get up to $500. But you have to have pure birds that look the part, and have some degree of authentication, in other words "bought from so and so", not "wandered in from the neighbors". This is mainly a market for people that want to hold on to what they believe to be 'heritage' breeds, not for fighting. This is not saying that some don't end up fighting, but "sold for breeding purposes only" is the usual disclaimer. Before anyone thinks they have found the next get rich quick poultry scheme, understand that you have to love these birds to keep them, and you will work hard for your money, just on penning arrangements. Mine are penned not because I'm afraid of dogs killing them, it's because I'm afraid of them killing each other. I let pullets run free, if they raise four or five clutches of chicks, then they have proven themselves as valuable breeders, and might be marketed, or selectively bred.


 So, just as a "what if", you forget to close the pen door and your rare breed or fighting cocks are pecking around the yard and a neighborhood dog kills a few. You going to demand $125, $300 or $500 for each bird?


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

haypoint said:


> So, just as a "what if", you forget to close the pen door and your rare breed or fighting cocks are pecking around the yard and a neighborhood dog kills a few. You going to demand $125, $300 or $500 for each bird?


People that are into preserving rare gamefowl usually know better than make too many waves in the neighborhood. A possible scenario could play out like this: "Your dog just killed my $300 Koopman Blue Toppy that I have a receipt for". "OK". Dog owner calls animal control, reports chicken owner as a cockfighter, a task force shows up, complete with humane society volunteers with fake police uniforms, all birds are confiscated, die of heat exhaustion in back of hatchback in cardboard boxes, or get euthanized. Chicken owner goes to court, case gets dismissed based on lack of evidence, but he will not ever get his chickens back, or get compensated for their value.

The birds can attain very long lifespans, something about being selected for fitness I guess. 15 years of age is not uncommon. One can stockpile adult birds, breeding each breed in your inventory every year is not necessary. One can have multiple pens of adult birds, and have very much the appearance of someone that is engaged in nefarious activity. Simply by keeping lots of adult birds, many male, (you might have pairs of several different strains), maybe waiting for someone that is interested in that particular strain, because their grandpa had those, or whatever, it is easy for AR types to get giddy.

Fact is, if I leave a pen open, the cocks are going to be wrecked anyway, (fighting through a fence is worse than being loose). If a dog catches a loose pullet, she wasn't worth keeping as a breeder anyway. You want to keep the most alert and fit to carry on the breed. If someones dog made a habit of coming over, and I voiced my displeasure, told them the value of my birds, and it kept coming over, and dug into one of my pens, maybe I would consider asking for replacement cost, but little chance of that happening with young birds and $10 layers running around everywhere.


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## tree-farmer (Jul 5, 2015)

longhairboy said:


> Jeez on Kijiji you can buy laying hens for $3 here, mind you they're a year old but still


Canadian dollars mind you but up here that's about the cost of day old leghorns or ISA browns. Any kind of heritage breed is $6+.

I'd have no problem selling year olds for $15, even this time of year.

Even with the exchange rate, I can't believe the low prices I hear from some of you.


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## aart (Oct 20, 2012)

anniew said:


> kdalton, why have you not told us what you asked from the neighbor?
> You brought the situation to the forum and now that you didn't get the replies you wanted, you don't finish the story.


They are in no way beholden to finish the story or participate any further in any way...and if he is in litigation over the incident-as was speculated from another of their posts on this forum, then it probably wouldn't be smart to speak another word of detail in public. If I had a nickel for every unfinished story on an internet forum.........<shrugs> Don't get me wrong, I would love to hear the rest too, but I'd bet another nickle that it ain't gonna happen.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

tree-farmer said:


> Canadian dollars mind you but up here that's about the cost of day old leghorns or ISA browns. Any kind of heritage breed is $6+.
> 
> I'd have no problem selling year olds for $15, even this time of year.
> 
> Even with the exchange rate, I can't believe the low prices I hear from some of you.


Due to the different ways our governments support farmers, poultry and milk are priced vastly different. Fuel is priced differently, too. 
In Sault Ste. Marie, MI, locals joke that you can always spot a Canadian, trunk full of 5 gallon fuel cans, a jug of milk in each hand and a turkey under each arm. eep:
I agree, you'll pay a lot more for chickens in Canada.


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## longhairboy (Feb 16, 2015)

haypoint said:


> Due to the different ways our governments support farmers, poultry and milk are priced vastly different. Fuel is priced differently, too.
> In Sault Ste. Marie, MI, locals joke that you can always spot a Canadian, trunk full of 5 gallon fuel cans, a jug of milk in each hand and a turkey under each arm. eep:
> I agree, you'll pay a lot more for chickens in Canada.


http://www.kijiji.ca/v-livestock/mo...le/1201037822?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true
Theres generally deals like this around here quite often. Doubt they're making much money off of them, just clearing them out to get new pullets maybe for production?


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## tree-farmer (Jul 5, 2015)

haypoint said:


> Due to the different ways our governments support farmers, poultry and milk are priced vastly different. Fuel is priced differently, too.
> In Sault Ste. Marie, MI, locals joke that you can always spot a Canadian, trunk full of 5 gallon fuel cans, a jug of milk in each hand and a turkey under each arm. eep:
> I agree, you'll pay a lot more for chickens in Canada.


Right, I forgot about supply management. On principle I disagree with it but I benefit from it so I should keep my mouth shut. Just seems so arbitrary that beef, pork, lamb are all unregulated but I'm capped at 99 actively laying hens and 2000 meat birds Turkeys are even more regulated. I can only buy 30 poults in a year and can't legally sell. To do that you need to pay $75 for a license and I think you're still limited to 50 poults. 




longhairboy said:


> http://www.kijiji.ca/v-livestock/mo...le/1201037822?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true
> Theres generally deals like this around here quite often. Doubt they're making much money off of them, just clearing them out to get new pullets maybe for production?


I couldn't believe how cheap everything was in the maritimes when I visited. I've sold a bunch of chicks and chickens this week from $5ea for a few days old to $15ea for pullets 2 months to a year old. And we don't have enough to sell to meet demand.

Not like anyone's getting rich though, it's basically a hobby unless you like working for 25 cents an hour. It's just nice to raise chickens and not lose money in the process.


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## longhairboy (Feb 16, 2015)

tree-farmer said:


> Right, I forgot about supply management. On principle I disagree with it but I benefit from it so I should keep my mouth shut. Just seems so arbitrary that beef, pork, lamb are all unregulated but I'm capped at 99 actively laying hens and 2000 meat birds Turkeys are even more regulated. I can only buy 30 poults in a year and can't legally sell. To do that you need to pay $75 for a license and I think you're still limited to 50 poults.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jeez and I thought my $10 pullets were on the high side


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

I had no clue that Canada would limit the number of poultry you can grow. Seem's like a lot of interference in a small farmer's business instead of letting the market sort out the winners from the losers.

And yes, now that winter is breathing down everybody's necks here, layer pullets are going for less than $10.00 each - organically raised are $15-20.00.
Wish the OP luck with his chicken lawsuit.


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## COWS (Dec 23, 2012)

Just for curiousity, what is the Canadian government's theory on restricting the size of flocks?

COWS


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

COWS said:


> Just for curiousity, what is the Canadian government's theory on restricting the size of flocks?
> 
> COWS


Control supply, provides a stable price for food.


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## CelestielAcres (Sep 16, 2016)

kdalton324 said:


> One. It has nothing to do with good faith. The chickens have a price and that's all it is.
> Two. I appreciate all the input but I think that twenty dollars a bird is absolutely ridiculous.
> Maybe I should have fenced from the beginning, but we also never had any predator issues before. And I don't think that I should have to have fencing as my primary concern to keep a domestic animal out. That's the owner of dogs responsibility to control them. Our chickens have never left our property.
> And you don't have to agree with me on these points.


$20 for a bird that has just started laying sounds far to me. I can sell 6 month old laying hens for that price here and I am in the middle of nowhere. Time, purchase price, feed costs should all be factored in. 

We free range our birds, our neighbors have all been warned that if a dog shows up and bothers my birds that it will be shot. While it is possible to have outside predators come take your flock, neighbors dogs shouldn't be a predator that one has to worry about. When we first started our flock when we moved to KS our set up was a lot like yours. We have since added much more stock and GPs. They still only REALLY work hard at night so my response to a neighbors dogs attacking would still be the same at this point.


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## COWS (Dec 23, 2012)

haypoint said:


> Control supply, provides a stable price for food.


Thanks. That whole general theory has a poor track record in the US.

COWS


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

COWS said:


> Thanks. That whole general theory has a poor track record in the US.
> 
> COWS


Canadian farmers can keep farming due to the stable price above the cost of production.
US farmers get a minimum loan rate, so if the price drops below their cost to produce, the crop goes to the government. So, consumers benefit from food that sells under the cost to produce it, but then spend more in taxes to support the farmers.

But now days, most farmers have contracted their crops and livestock before the plow goes in the ground. The price is locked in and while they miss out on the record prices, they miss the bust years that drove so many away from farming this past century.

US chicken, fed corn and soybeans, can sell so cheap because the feed is marketed at below the cost to produce. So, when China buys US chicken, the US taxpayer is subsidizing it.


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## ladytoysdream (Dec 13, 2008)

Prices of birds can vary. I recently sold 4 hens that were 23 weeks old, point of lay for $ 15 each. And the same day sold 4 hens that were 1.5 years old, laying for $ 12 each. 
The nice thing about this sale, I was given free these birds. I was going to keep them for myself but I already have a group of nice pullets coming up fast for replacements. I also 
recently sold old hens for $ 7 each, 10 of them to a man who did not care if they laid, he wanted them for people to look at when they came to buy produce from him. I have a 
buyer interested in a couple of pullets. I told him $ 14 each. He wants them friendly so his kids can handle them. With me it depends on the breed, age, and condition of the bird, 
I want to sell. And with winter bearing down on us, I can't ask big dollars. I have sold pullets for $ 20 each and that would be in the spring. 
I get $ 3 a dozen for mixed size chicken eggs. And I get $ 5 a dozen for duck eggs. 
--------------------------
I just bought a small group of white leghorns, laying, for $ 2 each, that I decided to keep. And can buy the standard size hens for $ 3 each, that my son will end up with. 
Friend of mine is downsizing for winter.


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## tree-farmer (Jul 5, 2015)

COWS said:


> Just for curiousity, what is the Canadian government's theory on restricting the size of flocks?
> 
> COWS


If you want in, you need to buy quota from a farmer who is selling it. Apparently the going rate is $350/layer. It basically allows the big, existing players a guaranteed source of income and is a barrier to any new entrants.

A similar system applies to milk and poultry meat.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

https://flint.craigslist.org/grd/5790763317.html

The OP was raising soy-free, pastured chickens, like these. $4. sounds about right.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

She lost layers not meat birds. It only takes 2 weeks going from regular chicken feed to soy free for layers.

So that means that either way 4.00 a pound for a meat bird or 20.00( at the max) for a layer is all it takes to make her "sound". That is what the courts consider when determining what someone gets when they seek restitution. There is no extra pain and suffering levied in this kind of case. 

I believe it is wasting the courts time and the taxpayers money to try to make them pay more. We have to be reasonable on both sides and stop wasting everyones money and time.


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