# Need advice, recommendation on guns



## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

We are looking at shotguns and DH was interested in the Mossberg 590 A1 Tactlight Forend Shotgun.

Here is a link:

http://www.mossberg.com/product/sho...al-purpose-tactical-light-forend-6-shot/51415

I am concerned about the kick a 12 gauge would have, I have shot one and ended up with bruises as it kicked pretty hard. It may have been the "old time" gun, but but wonder if the newer ones have the same "kick" to them?

We like the idea of a light on the gun and the fact that we can get it up to 9 shots. 

Would ammo be a concern? 

Next: 

DH wants to look at a revolver type pistol. The slide on a glock is hard for him to work due to carpal tunnel. 

Any recommendation on a revolver?

We :nanner: are going to go gun shopping and are narrowing our choices down before we hit the stores. We are going to the gun range and do a LOT of practice as it has been years since either of us has fired a gun. (for me due to moving, I haven't fired a gun in almost four years).

These would be for home/farm defense and possible critter control when we buy our new farm.

Thanks!


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Hold a shotgun tighter to your shoulder, giving it little room to "kick" and you'll fare much better, regardless of what model. ...and stay away from 10 gauges, altogether.....


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## foxfiredidit (Apr 15, 2003)

Sidepasser, that's a pretty hefty little gun for sure. It's a 3" chamber, but I suppose one can fire a 2 3/4" shell in it. A 3" shotgun shell is a heavy load for a lady, especially if using slugs or buckshot. The 2 3/4" shell would mitigate the kick down to a manageable amount for you, the critter or bad guy won't know the difference. What Forerunner said is most important with either round...just keep it tight to your shoulder. The choke is advertised as a "cylinder bore", which is the most unrestricted bore you can get, in other words...its a scatter gun. For home protection a good thing, for dispatching critters maybe not so good, depending on the range you're shooting from. A gunsmith can add threads for a choke system inside the end of the barrel where they just screw in, and you get 3 sizes in the package, 1. Open 2. Modified 3. Full. Those 3 in turn, bring the shot pattern down to a smaller pattern from "Open" which is about what the gun will be out of the box, and with increasing ranges, narrow the pattern down with "modified" and "full" to be more effective the further out you plan on shooting. Not very expensive to get the modifications for removable chokes. Funny thing about shotguns and rifles, when shooting on the range you always feel the kick, but when firing live rounds at live targets, you probably won't feel a thing. 

I like Smith & Wesson revolvers. One that fits your grip with a significant load and barrel length for accuracy comes on several frame styles.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Thanks Forerunner for the advice. As folks that are getting older, no sense in getting a shotgun that is: to heavy, too hard to handle and shoot in the long as we age. We plan to "try out" a few before purchasing, but I know some models are better than others.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

the heavier shotgun will kick less...those old 12ga singleshots that were light weight can kick like a mule.

just because its chamber for a 3inch mag shell doesnt mean you have to shoot them.2.3/4 will do.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Foxfire - thank you, would a 16 or higher gauge be as effective as a 12 gauge?


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

sidepasser said:


> Foxfire - thank you, would a 16 or higher gauge be as effective as a 12 gauge?



any shotgun at room distance the intruder is dead.


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

Get a 22 pistol. Works just fine for dispatching the occassional ****, skunk etc. otherwise, get a lever action or semiauto 22lr rifle.

I'll add more in a bit. Need to get onto the computer.


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## Tobster (Feb 24, 2009)

Take a look at revolvers in .357 magnum which will also take a .38 Special cartridge. The .38 is an affordable cartridge to shoot and practice and you can really charge it up with a hot load .357 for home protection. Best of both worlds IMO.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

start gathering ammo now


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## foxfiredidit (Apr 15, 2003)

sidepasser said:


> Foxfire - thank you, would a 16 or higher gauge be as effective as a 12 gauge?


I think it would be an improvement for sure, since both you and DH will be using one common gun...both parties need confidence in ability and the weapon. Knowing you can handle the shot presented to you in an accurate manner makes up for anything more in sheer muzzle velocity and size of the pellets. Have fun, I like 16 and 20 gauge shotguns.


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## dkhern (Nov 30, 2012)

fwiw id only consider 12 and 20 not 16ga. way more ammo selections. i dont know of any 3" 16ga. 3" 20ga is basically the equivelent of 2 3/4" 12 ga. depending handgun and rifle ammo is in short supply and when found can be expensive shotgun seems more available at least here. if you are going to carry id recomend a 22 handgun. if you need something to be left in the barn and available id suggest a seme auto 22 rifle. good luck


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

I have a 20 ga. and for an ol' lady it works fine.

I also have a Browining automatic that I rarely shoot anymore. My current favorite is a Lady Smith revolver.

If you're interested in automatic, look for newer ones that are ported.


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

I'd say that a 22 is a fine multipurpose gun. I tote a 9 shot H&R in my bib pocket. It work good on possums, *****, snakes ect.
A under valued gun around the farm is a 410 shotgun. Mosseberg make a 410 pump that sells for around 300 new. I personally prefer a shotgun to deal with poisonus snakes. 410 shell are a little higher than others, but for a person with hand trouble....a 3 inch, good brand, no 4 shot shell is a tough customer.
If for just home defense, drop that light, any thinking person will just shoot towards the light....it just makes the person holding it a good target.....outside at the barn is another matter.
No. 4 and no. 6 shot will generally take care of alot of problems. If you've just woke up, and trying to get a varmit tearing the chicken house up....shot gun is easier to aim groggy than a 22......
My favorite revolver is my old 1936 Smith and Wesson M&P 38 special. Best $200 ever spent on a revolver. 
Most importantly get something that suits you, and your comfortable with......just like any other tool you buy!


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Check out the Ruger revolvers in .357.The smaller the gun the greater the felt recoil . A Mossberg or Remington 870 in 12 or 20 ga. The heavier the shot the harder the recoil. #6 or #4 birdshot is nothing compared to buckshot or slugs from the same gun. Hold tight to shoulder and lean in to it.
Ed


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## SCRancher (Jan 11, 2011)

You could try a Judge or a similar model from Taurus or other manufactures, it fires a .45 round or a 410 shotgun shell round.

This is something I have my eye on for home defense. It's a lot easier pointing a pistol around the house in close quarters then having to lift and point a long barrel shotgun.

Here is a link to their selection of .45/410 capable handguns.

http://www.taurususa.com/gun-selector-results.cfm?series=41&toggle=tr


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

12 gauge with a recoil pad...all the difference in the world for about $10.
As said prior, get the ammo NOW.
Revolver; any double action is better than nothing. I am very fond of 22, but a snubby .38 or 357 (which will also fire .38) has a bit more punch.

Matt


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

ya really need to follow Biden's advice though...


[YOUTUBE]Qv63D6hJU_Y[/YOUTUBE]


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

All shotguns have the same killing power and power. The only thing is that with a 410 you have to be on target and a 12 gauge you don't have to be as much on target because of the shot spread. A 410 is called a lady gun and has been that way from the first model ever made. Many want to go a larger to a 20m gauge and that is fine because of the ammunition availability. Just because every body says a 12 gauge will not be right for you. On a revolver find one that fits your hand not what every body says is the best. Go to a gun range that offers a virility of guns for rent and try some of them and decide what is beat for you.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Thank you everyone, I will print these responses off for my husband to read.

There is a lot to think about, I grew up with a simple .22 rifle and a 20 gauge shotgun, I started looking today at what is available and it is overwhelming - there are guns that don't even look like guns - they look like futuristic weapons that are in movies.

Thank you everyone and if anyone has further suggestions, we are all ears!


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

farmerj said:


> ya really need to follow Biden's advice though...
> 
> 
> 
> [YOUTUBE]Qv63D6hJU_Y[/YOUTUBE]


But you stand a mighty good chance of going to jail if you do.


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## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

Get a Ruger Mark III 22 pistol and get whatever shotgun you want just make sure you get a 12 gauge. The shells are much easier to get. If you want more kick than a 22. Get a 9mm or 40 cal semi auto smith and Wesson. I would stay away from revolvers. They usually don't have the trigger that the semi autos have and you want easy with accuracy for home protection. 


Living the good life


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Another question: shotguns that I used in the past were bolt action. Is a pump action better or is semi-automatic better? I have read that semi-automatics can be prone to malfunctions, where pump action is less likely.


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## Hotshot (Mar 6, 2009)

If you go with a mossberg invest in a copstock.It is made to reduce felt recoil and well worth the money.


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## Space Cowboy (Apr 26, 2008)

I have had a Mossberg 590 for a long time. I love it. It racks quickly and smoothly. I have noticed no appreciable kick with 2 3/4 or 3" shells. Mileage may vary. For the price, the 590 is an excellent shotgun. When I bought it, the Marines used it at the Embassies around the world. I don't know if they still do, but a great weapon anyways.

SC


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## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

sidepasser said:


> Another question: shotguns that I used in the past were bolt action. Is a pump action better or is semi-automatic better? I have read that semi-automatics can be prone to malfunctions, where pump action is less likely.



I like pumps. But I duck hunt and bird hunt with a Stoeger 3500 semi auto. It really depends on what you want to spend. 
I have 7 shotguns. 4 pumps. Two single shot and one semi auto. I goose hunt with a browning pump 10 gauge. 

Living the good life


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Thank you for your response Doug, it sounds like you are quite a hunter, do you have a duck dog to retrieve? I don't know if there is duck hunting down here in Alabama, but I know in GA. we used to hunt quail and used Pointers for that. My neighbor used to raise some of the best Pointers in the State and he always let me play with the puppies when I was a teen. He used to field trial them and won many awards for his dogs.

Course back then, everyone raised hunting dogs in my neighborhood. My cousins raised blue tick and red bone **** dogs and another neighbor raised labs and all the dogs had to work for a living. Sometimes we about went nuts listening to baying and barking hounds at night.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Ruger *MKII* has a better mag eject...Just sayin'

Matt


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## Doug Hodges (Jul 22, 2013)

sidepasser said:


> Thank you for your response Doug, it sounds like you are quite a hunter, do you have a duck dog to retrieve? I don't know if there is duck hunting down here in Alabama, but I know in GA. we used to hunt quail and used Pointers for that. My neighbor used to raise some of the best Pointers in the State and he always let me play with the puppies when I was a teen.



I have a yellow lab. She will retrieve blind. Meaning. I can whistle and point in the direction and she will head that direction. If she gets off track, I can blow a whistle and she will stop and look at me and wait for my command. No matter how far away she is. She will even do that when swimming. 


Living the good life


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## wannalive (Aug 29, 2013)

look into a company call KNOX STOX.. they make a spring loaded stock and it takes the 12 snap, and completely tames it... very shootable..


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## wannalive (Aug 29, 2013)

Old Vet said:


> All shotguns have the same killing power and power. The only thing is that with a 410 you have to be on target and a 12 gauge you don't have to be as much on target because of the shot spread. A 410 is called a lady gun and has been that way from the first model ever made. Many want to go a larger to a 20m gauge and that is fine because of the ammunition availability. Just because every body says a 12 gauge will not be right for you. On a revolver find one that fits your hand not what every body says is the best. Go to a gun range that offers a virility of guns for rent and try some of them and decide what is beat for you.


sorry old ve,, just not true. on shotguns.. the smaller the number the larger the gauge. the larger the gauge, the more powder, and shot the shell has, the more powder and shot the shell has, the more effective it is... and even in the same gauge it can vary, by different shell loads, and also length.. like a 2 3/4 shell is not as "hot" as a 3in is.. and 00 or 000 shot is move devastating that say number 4s... and they were looking at a Mossberg 590 if I remember correct. which is generally a self/home different gun. and at typical self defence ranges,under 20ft, and useually a lot less than that.. the shot has not had time to spread much, roughly the size of your fist(I know it varies, just not a lot), so ppl saying "you don't have to aim, or aiming aint as important with a shotgun" is crap.. even at longer ranges/ like hunting.. it is plenty easy to miss.. even if the patter has had time to open. but I do agree with you on,, no one can tell you what gun to get,, you need to hold and shoot as many as possible... you will know when you get the right one


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

wannalive said:


> sorry old ve,, just not true. on shotguns.. the smaller the number the larger the gauge. the larger the gauge, the more powder, and shot the shell has, the more powder and shot the shell has, the more effective it is... and even in the same gauge it can vary, by different shell loads, and also length.. like a 2 3/4 shell is not as "hot" as a 3in is.. and 00 or 000 shot is move devastating that say number 4s... and they were looking at a Mossberg 590 if I remember correct. which is generally a self/home different gun. and at typical self defence ranges,under 20ft, and useually a lot less than that.. the shot has not had time to spread much, roughly the size of your fist(I know it varies, just not a lot), so ppl saying "you don't have to aim, or aiming aint as important with a shotgun" is crap.. even at longer ranges/ like hunting.. it is plenty easy to miss.. even if the patter has had time to open. but I do agree with you on,, no one can tell you what gun to get,, you need to hold and shoot as many as possible... you will know when you get the right one


Bullcrap. Because the reduced shell capacity means smaller shot charges are propelled by smaller powder charges, the same size shot is generally traveling at the same speed regardless of gauge (unless intentionally pushed faster or slower by higher pressured loads or reduced powder or shot charges).
More important is choke restriction. While an individual 00 or 000 MAY do more damage the TOTAL damage can often be greater in smaller shot sizes. For example the average 00 12ga only contains 9 pellets to 24 #4 buck pellets. This means the 00 has a total 2.97" of "bullet" to the #4's 5.76" of "bullet." If you assume 4" of penetration that is 11.88 cubic inches of damage for 00 to the #4's 23.04 cubic inches. The greater number of pellets also increases the probability of impacting the central nervous system to cause instant incapacitation. The reason I picked 4" is because most birdshot will penetrate AT LEAST 4" of tissue & bone out to ranges of 40 yds. This means that most birdshot will penetrate the sternum & the heart. This large birdshot is equally effective at household ranges. But because of the number of pellets and their impacts on each other as they leave the barrel, they tend to open up more than buckshot and so require less precise shooting skills.


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## wannalive (Aug 29, 2013)

you can hide behind your technical gargon if you want.. but if smaller shot is more deadly, thy why do we use bird shot on birds. and slugs on deer.. have you ever shot any ballistic gelatin. what kills is three things. the shock waves, organ damage, and blood loss, a larger shot, traveling at relatively the same speed, will create more shock, the poor and yes shallow penetration from smaller(bird) shot is not effective enough to reliably produce deep enough wonds for organ damage or blood loss.. and the only proven way to produce large amounts of blood loss is but bigger holes.. analogy.. we use number 4 to 8 for SMALL game,i.e. rabbits, squirrel, quail ect... because the SMALL shot doesn't destroy to much of the meat.. and slugs(which is bigger) one deer,, because the SMALL shot would not reliabaly kill, and would be unethical. now I will admit that at super close range smaller shot MAY suffice, but bigger shot WILL work.. it is also a fact that ppl(the bad guys) wear cloths, most of the time.. and for a simple test.. take a watermelon or cantalop.. and put a few layers of cloths over it.. then shoot at it with number 7, the 00 buck. compare the penetration, them come back to this forum and share your results.. now I will give more than my opinion,, I will give some facts.. you picked the mumber 4 for inches of penetration, as it MAY reach the heart, now add heavy clothing.. an over weight person and a poor shot into the mix... the fbi recommends a minimum of 12in(becosue anything less doesn't relialably kill) penetration. Penetration is a factor of the mass of each individual pellet, and the larger the individual pellet, the greater the penetration, if the velocity is the same. So, #6 birdshot will penetrate more than #9 birdshot, and so on. But no birdshot will reach the 12 inches of penetration required to be effective.
each pellet of #6 shot weighs approximately 1.8 grains. If there are 333 #6 pellets in a shotgun shell, the total weight of the birdshot is 600 grains.

Some folks have mistakenly said, "A load of #6 is like getting shot with a solid piece of lead weighing 600 grains".

But this is not the case. This is because that 600 grain load is composed of 333 individual #6 sized shot, each weighing 1.8 grains. And the penetration of the shot is dependant on the weight of "each pellet", not the total weight. And a 1.8 grain pellet will not penetrate very far into ballistic gelatin or a bad guy.
here is a good link to read.. http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=176

The single biggest mistake people make is to assume that the power of the shotgun is such that it negates having to select proper ammo. Through no experience or research they might come to the conclusion that birdshot is a perfectly acceptable choice for self defense? Why? Because the "feel" it's adequate for the most part.

Nothing is further from the truth. Once again, the shotgun ammunition needs to perform the same function as rifle and pistol ammo, which is to penetrate about 12" into ballistic gelatin. Fragmentation/expansion are usually not an issue in shotgun ammo, so that factor can be ignored for the most part.

For an excellent article which explains it better than I could, please read "Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition on firearmstactical.com.

The summary from that article states:


Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 Â¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 Â¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 Â¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester's 2 Â¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive. 

here is a good link aswell... scroll to the bottom for the shotgun part.. http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
but here it is aswell.

While #1 buck might be ideal IF the the shot is hardened, the reality is that these loads might be hard to find. If finding hardened #1 proves elusive, 00 buck is a great choice instead.


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## wannalive (Aug 29, 2013)

im not trying to be jerky. so please don't take it that way.. but all test prove your opinion to be wrong.. number 1 buck is proven the most effective against larger predators, including 2 legged.. but hard to find. so 00 is second best.. I almost let this thread go and ignored, but when it comes to firearms, bad advise is dangerous... basically if you wanna hunt small game.. use a small shot, big game, or self defence.. use big shot, or slugs


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## Glade Runner (Aug 1, 2013)

sidepasser said:


> Foxfire - thank you, would a 16 or higher gauge be as effective as a 12 gauge?


Modern 20 gauge loads are very effective indeed. I'd avoid 16s because of the limited selection of ammo and the cost.

If your primary interest is in home defense then get a youth model 870 in 20 gauge and buy a magazine extension. That's what lives by my bedroom door and the wife can shoot it just fine. The shorter length makes it very handy in the house. 

I just saw 250 rounds of #1 Buck in 20 gauge for 125 dollars. That's a pretty good deal.

For a revolver it's pretty hard to beat a Ruger in .357 magnum. Practice with .38+Ps and use full house loads for social occasions.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Thanks for the link Wannalive - I will spend some time reading and will probably have more questions!

I will also do some research on ammo as it appears that a great deal of it is out of stock on some websites. I have a feeling that over time, there will be much more out of stock  

I will point out to DH that a 16 gauge shotgun may be difficult to find ammo for. If I can't find ammo, the gun will be useless and I will have a fancy stick.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

wannalive said:


> you can hide behind your technical gargon if you want.. but if smaller shot is more deadly, thy why do we use bird shot on birds. and slugs on deer.. have you ever shot any ballistic gelatin. what kills is three things. the shock waves, organ damage, and blood loss, a larger shot, traveling at relatively the same speed, will create more shock, the poor and yes shallow penetration from smaller(bird) shot is not effective enough to reliably produce deep enough wonds for organ damage or blood loss.. and the only proven way to produce large amounts of blood loss is but bigger holes.. analogy.. we use number 4 to 8 for SMALL game,i.e. rabbits, squirrel, quail ect... because the SMALL shot doesn't destroy to much of the meat.. and slugs(which is bigger) one deer,, because the SMALL shot would not reliabaly kill, and would be unethical. now I will admit that at super close range smaller shot MAY suffice, but bigger shot WILL work.. it is also a fact that ppl(the bad guys) wear cloths, most of the time.. and for a simple test.. take a watermelon or cantalop.. and put a few layers of cloths over it.. then shoot at it with number 7, the 00 buck. compare the penetration, them come back to this forum and share your results.. now I will give more than my opinion,, I will give some facts.. you picked the mumber 4 for inches of penetration, as it MAY reach the heart, now add heavy clothing.. an over weight person and a poor shot into the mix... the fbi recommends a minimum of 12in(becosue anything less doesn't relialably kill) penetration. Penetration is a factor of the mass of each individual pellet, and the larger the individual pellet, the greater the penetration, if the velocity is the same. So, #6 birdshot will penetrate more than #9 birdshot, and so on. But no birdshot will reach the 12 inches of penetration required to be effective.
> each pellet of #6 shot weighs approximately 1.8 grains. If there are 333 #6 pellets in a shotgun shell, the total weight of the birdshot is 600 grains.
> 
> Some folks have mistakenly said, "A load of #6 is like getting shot with a solid piece of lead weighing 600 grains".
> ...


Have you read the link on shotgun shells? Here is what it says. 
_In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.
That means that in a 410 gauge shot shell is the same as a 10 gauge. Only the number of shot in the shell makes a difference. 
_


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

i think without getting to much into numbers #1 is that sweet spot where you get the needed penetration of 12 inches in test media that the FBI tells us is critical per their testing and the most number of projectiles to transfer energy . 
some people get carried away with this and think if #1 is good #6 must be better 

remember this is all about energy transfer and penetration

forget about hygroscopic shock , wound channel and all the other details , plain and simple you want to transfer the most energy to the target but you need to penetrate the vitals , anything that penetrates thru the target is lost energy and anything that stops in the first inch or 2 hasn't gotten to vital organs 


as for the on target or off target , at distances of across the room (unless you have a very large house) even a cylinder bore 12 ga with a short 18 inch barrel will only spread a few inches , so you do need to be on target , everyone should pattern their shotgun with their intended load and know where the point of aim vs point of impact for the shot concentration is.

I like my 12ga shotguns but if i had to go out and buy a family shotgun today the Remington 870 youth 20ga would be my go to gun , add a mag tube extender , it comes with a 21 inch barrel and choke tubes , add a light , you can hunt with it, shoot trap with it for practice , it is short enough to work as a house gun , add a slip on recoil pad for tall shooters , take it off for short ones 

when you buy a car you get one that fits the tallest driver , and the shorter driver moves the seat up , when you get a shotgun for multiple family members to use you size it for the shortest , you can always add a slip on pad for the taller person and even without a pad most tall shooters can shoot a short gun better than a short shooter can shoot one that is to long

i would avoid anything 16 ga I just don't see it on store shelves i have passed on several very good deals on nice shotguns in 16ga because at least in Wisconsin 16 ga ammo is hard to find a few stores bring in a few boxes of bird shot and slugs come fall , if i felt i couldn't go 12ga , 20 is nearly as popular


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

you can talk technical jargon all you want.

1 buck, 2 buck, 9 shot, slug, pistol etc.

NONE OF IT MATTERS....

because if they can't hit with what they are shooting, it's pointless.

find some friends that have guns, go to a gun range, find an instructor that can share a selection of guns. However you do it.

then go shoot what you THINK you want to get. And then find what you REALLY are going to get.


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## wilded (May 10, 2002)

Here is an article I wrote on choosing the homestead firearm. You might enjoy it. http://wildedtx.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-homestead-firearm.html


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## wannalive (Aug 29, 2013)

ok old vet..let me clarify.. yes, the individual shot of say 00 buck will perform similar,, the difference is the number of shot.. yes that is true.. but since the larger guage holds more shot..it IS MORE EFFECTIVE... 410- 5 33 caliber wonds from 00buck. 12ga -9 3c caliber wonds for 00 buck. (for 2 3/4 shells) 3 inch having I think 15 shot... its really not that complicated... more shot of the same size is going to be more effective than less...


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## wannalive (Aug 29, 2013)

and that is all I ever said.. that the larger guage gun, with larger shot is more effective than smaller guage with smaller shot.. nothing but fact.. and farmerj,, yes none of it matters if you caint hit the side of a barn at 20 yrds..


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## wannalive (Aug 29, 2013)

sidepasser said:


> Thanks for the link Wannalive - I will spend some time reading and will probably have more questions!
> 
> I will also do some research on ammo as it appears that a great deal of it is out of stock on some websites. I have a feeling that over time, there will be much more out of stock
> 
> I will point out to DH that a 16 gauge shotgun may be difficult to find ammo for. If I can't find ammo, the gun will be useless and I will have a fancy stick.


right,, 12 and 20 gauge is alteast now, readily available...more so than any other shotgun round..


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## wannalive (Aug 29, 2013)

I 100% agree greentreehouse.. but let me clarify,, even you said it is all about the transfer of energy unto the target.. well that is what causes the hydrostatic shock... so apples to apples.. and not to get off topic to much,, but that same principle is the answer the the 9mm vs 45cal debate. 9mm penetrates to much.. and 45 dumps all that energy unto the target...lol.. but all gun ppl know that is a never ending debate..lol...


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

wannalive said:


> ok old vet..let me clarify.. yes, the individual shot of say 00 buck will perform similar,, the difference is the number of shot.. yes that is true.. but since the larger guage holds more shot..it IS MORE EFFECTIVE... 410- 5 33 caliber wonds from 00buck. 12ga -9 3c caliber wonds for 00 buck. (for 2 3/4 shells) 3 inch having I think 15 shot... its really not that complicated... more shot of the same size is going to be more effective than less...


Ok then a 10 gauge is better than a 12 gauge so why suggest a 12 gauge? Every body needs a 10 gauge hanging on the wall.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

wannalive said:


> you can hide behind your technical gargon if you want.. but if smaller shot is more deadly, thy why do we use bird shot on birds. and slugs on deer.. have you ever shot any ballistic gelatin. what kills is three things. the shock waves, organ damage, and blood loss, a larger shot, traveling at relatively the same speed, will create more shock, the poor and yes shallow penetration from smaller(bird) shot is not effective enough to reliably produce deep enough wonds for organ damage or blood loss.. and the only proven way to produce large amounts of blood loss is but bigger holes.. analogy.. we use number 4 to 8 for SMALL game,i.e. rabbits, squirrel, quail ect... because the SMALL shot doesn't destroy to much of the meat.. and slugs(which is bigger) one deer,, because the SMALL shot would not reliabaly kill, and would be unethical. now I will admit that at super close range smaller shot MAY suffice, but bigger shot WILL work.. it is also a fact that ppl(the bad guys) wear cloths, most of the time.. and for a simple test.. take a watermelon or cantalop.. and put a few layers of cloths over it.. then shoot at it with number 7, the 00 buck. compare the penetration, them come back to this forum and share your results.. now I will give more than my opinion,, I will give some facts.. you picked the mumber 4 for inches of penetration, as it MAY reach the heart, now add heavy clothing.. an over weight person and a poor shot into the mix... the fbi recommends a minimum of 12in(becosue anything less doesn't relialably kill) penetration. Penetration is a factor of the mass of each individual pellet, and the larger the individual pellet, the greater the penetration, if the velocity is the same. So, #6 birdshot will penetrate more than #9 birdshot, and so on. But no birdshot will reach the 12 inches of penetration required to be effective.
> each pellet of #6 shot weighs approximately 1.8 grains. If there are 333 #6 pellets in a shotgun shell, the total weight of the birdshot is 600 grains.
> 
> Some folks have mistakenly said, "A load of #6 is like getting shot with a solid piece of lead weighing 600 grains".
> ...


Your article supports my contention that given an acceptable depth of penetration a larger number of pellets providing a larger area of injury is superior to fewer pellets giving greater penetration.
As to why we use the size of shot we do it has more to do with range than the effects within those ranges. Buckshot and slugs are used because they achieve acceptable penetration at GREATER ranges NOT because of greater penetration at shorter ranges. #4 birdshot achieves at least 4" AT 40 YDS, at household ranges it penetrates greater than 4" and causes a greater VOLUME of injury just like the #1 buck in the article you quoted. Where you and the article differ with me is the conviction that 12" is the necessary amount of penetration. The reason I differ is:
1. Single projectile weapons (rifle, pistol, arrow) kill primarily by hypovolemic shock (blood loss to the cardio pulminary system) while shotguns tend to kill from concussive shock (impact and the transfer of energy).
2. The misconception that you MUST kill a person with the first shot, in truth you need only delay them effectively enough to stop forward motion and allow for follow up shots.
On a purely anecdotal level, I have eaten a deer killed with #4 birdshot at 80 yds. I also helped bury a bulldog a guy tried to pepper with 8s at 70 yds. Now I wouldn't intentionally hunt deer & coyote with these sizes at these ranges. But I would gladly shoot an intruder in my home at 20 feet with these loads. Twice if I had to.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Old Vet said:


> Ok then a 10 gauge is better than a 12 gauge so why suggest a 12 gauge? Every body needs a 10 gauge hanging on the wall.


Well in that case we should all have a 4 bore.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Gee, Pops....does a 4 bore really have more stopping power than a Solothurn ?


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Pops2 said:


> 1. Single projectile weapons (rifle, pistol, arrow) kill primarily by hypovolemic shock (blood loss to the cardio pulminary system) while shotguns tend to kill from *concussive shock* (impact and the transfer of energy).


Iâll be honest; the only concussive shock Iâve ever even read about had to do with IEDs and explosives. IF anyone can reference a source for concussive shock resulting from a shotgun, Iâd love to read it. I even Googled it and came up empty handed.
Thanks,
Chuck


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

At our house it's a 12 gauge for me, and a 20 gauge for my wife. Both pumps, both Winchesters (same safety and release setups). I pulled the plugs out of both, so they hold either 6 or 7 rounds. The 12 stays loaded with 00, and the 20 with #2 buck. Both guns are strictly home defense (although armadillos are in danger).

For pistols we settled on .38, loaded with hollow points. It's been my experience semi-autos will malfunction rarely, but wheel guns only don't go bang when you have bad ammo.

I might suggest looking into a .22 rifle for a very versatile tool. It wouldn't be normally used for home defense, so something like a Ruger 10-22 semi-auto is a great little gun.

Just my experience and opinion.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Chuck R. said:


> I&#8217;ll be honest; the only concussive shock I&#8217;ve ever even read about had to do with IEDs and explosives. IF anyone can reference a source for concussive shock resulting from a shotgun, I&#8217;d love to read it. I even Googled it and came up empty handed.
> Thanks,
> Chuck


 Concussion just means impact, in medical terms it is a brain injury from impact. Most of the game I've taken w/ a shotty have died from the multiple pellet impacts long before thy could bleed out. I have even taken game where the pellets ONLY penetrated the skin but otherwise caused no fatal injury. Their death was from impact related shock. I'm sure there is a more technically correct term but I don't know what it is, so I used a descriptive term.


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## wannalive (Aug 29, 2013)

Old Vet said:


> Ok then a 10 gauge is better than a 12 gauge so why suggest a 12 gauge? Every body needs a 10 gauge hanging on the wall.


it comes down to ammo availability, and ability to handle recoil.


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## wannalive (Aug 29, 2013)

and what every, you all can believe what you want.. I will believe what scientific test after test has proven,, you wanna use bird shot for intruders, that is your choice, but for me, I will leave the bird shot for ummmm birds...lol.. and chuck r. all that is meant by concusion is the shock wave the goes thru the body when being hit.. that can cause internal damage... and you said you and the article disagree with the 12 in thing.. well that is your OPINION vs a general standard given after EXTENSIVE testing and research.. by more than just the fbi... if you feel your opinion trump that.. the im arguing with a brick wall.. but either way we have gotten way of topic... back to the question by the op.. a shotgun is a great first gun.. as their is not other gun with the amount of ammo choices.. you can load up for anything from squirrel, deer, to 2legged predators,(although there is evidently some differences of opinion on what shot to use)lol...


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

wannalive said:


> and what every, you all can believe what you want.. I will believe what scientific test after test has proven,, you wanna use bird shot for intruders, that is your choice, but for me, I will leave the bird shot for ummmm birds...lol.. and chuck r. all that is meant by concusion is the shock wave the goes thru the body when being hit.. that can cause internal damage... and you said you and the article disagree with the 12 in thing.. well that is your OPINION vs a general standard given after EXTENSIVE testing and research.. by more than just the fbi... if you feel your opinion trump that.. the im arguing with a brick wall.. but either way we have gotten way of topic... back to the question by the op.. a shotgun is a great first gun.. as their is not other gun with the amount of ammo choices.. you can load up for anything from squirrel, deer, to 2legged predators,(although there is evidently some differences of opinion on what shot to use)lol...


That testing goes back to the other fallacy, in home defense ranges are MUCH shorter than shotgun combat ranges from say across the street. Now in an actual COMBAT scenario I would choose a variety of loads including buckshot in 4, 1 & 00 as well as slugs and flechette too if I can get it. But again too many modern combat shotguns are now being equipped w/interchangeable choke tubes to maximize there effectiveness at a variety of ranges. I may very well be the only guy here that has actually shot people at household ranges (with M-16 & M-4 but still household range), so yeah based on actual experiences I think the performance of buckshot in the house is completely unnecessary and endangers others in the house and in the neighbors' houses. Like it or not the FBI testing is designed to ensure kills arranges far greater than in most homes. So unless you're Aaron Spelling and living in a million square foot palace, that level of performance is excessive and unnecessary and the greater recoil of the loads & ga recommended will deter people from getting the practice they need to function effectively when the SHTF.


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## wannalive (Aug 29, 2013)

Pops2 said:


> That testing goes back to the other fallacy, in home defense ranges are MUCH shorter than shotgun combat ranges from say across the street. Now in an actual COMBAT scenario I would choose a variety of loads including buckshot in 4, 1 & 00 as well as slugs and flechette too if I can get it. But again too many modern combat shotguns are now being equipped w/interchangeable choke tubes to maximize there effectiveness at a variety of ranges. I may very well be the only guy here that has actually shot people at household ranges (with M-16 & M-4 but still household range), so yeah based on actual experiences I think the performance of buckshot in the house is completely unnecessary and endangers others in the house and in the neighbors' houses. Like it or not the FBI testing is designed to ensure kills arranges far greater than in most homes. So unless you're Aaron Spelling and living in a million square foot palace, that level of performance is excessive and unnecessary and the greater recoil of the loads & ga recommended will deter people from getting the practice they need to function effectively when the SHTF.



ok, I will give you that, half way anyway,, at across the room distances, yes, they could be comparable.. but step it up to across the yard or street as you said...may never happen, but I prefer to be ready for as many possibilities as I can.. that is why mine is stocked with 00 buck, and slugs in the side saddle.. and the endangering others.. that may be possible, I agree,, but a person should also practice their situational awareness..


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

wannalive said:


> and what every, you all can believe what you want.. I will believe what scientific test after test has proven,, you wanna use bird shot for intruders, that is your choice, but for me, I will leave the bird shot for ummmm birds...lol.. and chuck r. all that is meant by concusion is the shock wave the goes thru the body when being hit.. that can cause internal damage... and you said you and the article disagree with the 12 in thing.. well that is your OPINION vs a general standard given after EXTENSIVE testing and research.. by more than just the fbi... if you feel your opinion trump that.. the im arguing with a brick wall.. but either way we have gotten way of topic... back to the question by the op.. a shotgun is a great first gun.. as their is not other gun with the amount of ammo choices.. you can load up for anything from squirrel, deer, to 2legged predators,(although there is evidently some differences of opinion on what shot to use)lol...


Wannalive,

1st off, I simply asked a question, didnât dispute anything. I subscribe to the FBI testing standards and only use ammo for HD or SD, thatâs tested and meets the FBIâs requirements for penetration and expansion. 

Pops, while I believe in shock as it applies to small game where the energy of the pellet or projectile is significant when compared to the targets body weight/mass; I donât think it applies here when dealing with humans. IF it did, then the stats for in the article I referenced below would lead to a way higher mortality rate for shotgun wounds. 

Thereâs another very good article on handgun wounding and effectiveness that delves into how handgun projectiles cause incapacitation. Iâve found no such research for shotgun wounding, but believe that the results can be inferred due to the projectiles having similar impact velocities, IE neither have enough speed to impart much of a âshockâ to the target. 

Itâs titled: Handgun Wounding and Effectiveness and it can be found here:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

IF you want to really get in deep with some statistics, hereâs a dated, but still good article on Shotgun Ballistics and Shotgun injuries:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1238294/pdf/westjmed00252-0085.pdf

IAW the Western Journal of Medicine article on shotgun wound ballistics (above) the following fatality rates apply for birdshot:

Type I Wound Greater than 7 yards (21 feet+) 0-5% Mortality Rate.

Type II Wound 3-7 Yards (9-21 feet) 5-10% Mortality Rate.

Type III Wound Contact-3 yards (0-9 feet) 15-20 % Mortality Rate.

Note, no types of shotgun wounds even approached a 50% fatality rate when using birdshot. 80-95% of shotgun fatalities (again bird shot) were Type III wounds and hemorrhaging (bleeding out) was the cause of death. The average time for death was 2.3 hours. Keep in mind, this was written back in 1978, so with some improvements in trauma care the mortality rates have probably decreased some.

This is just me talking, but Iâm not going to depend on anything that doesnâtâ stand the best chance for a 1 shot incapacitation, so while birdshot âmayâ be effective, and it âmayâ provide enough of a delay for a follow up shot, âmayâ allows for an awful lot of âmay notâ. For instance IF I end up having to take the fight outdoors (sometimes the enemy gets a vote, or no plan survives initial contact), my birdshot HD load âmay notâ be effective at that distance, how many have practiced slug drills? . IF I have to shoot through a barrier, solid core door, counter, wall etc. again birdshot âmay notâ have the desired effect. 

Chuck


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## Glade Runner (Aug 1, 2013)

Forerunner said:


> Gee, Pops....does a 4 bore really have more stopping power than a Solothurn ?


I'll take the Solothurn. It's scary that we all read the same stuff.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

I believe I'll have another drink! What's solothurn?


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Swiss/German.....rifle....20mm......anti-tank....shoulder-fired. :thumb:


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Huh.. I just shot a piece of 3/4 ply wood last weekend with 7 1/2 bird shot from 25 feet... I have a very tight turkey choke in the gun.. It left a 4" hole in the plywood... I'd have a hard time believing that wouldn't kill a man shot in the middle of the chest... 

On the flip side, I'm not one to discount 4 or 5 .22's shot into a guys chest either.. .In a fight, I'm gonna grab what's handy..


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## Glade Runner (Aug 1, 2013)

bowdonkey said:


> I believe I'll have another drink! What's solothurn?


Read "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross and you'll learn a lot.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Forerunner said:


> Swiss/German.....rifle....20mm......anti-tank....shoulder-fired. :thumb:



I want what you got..lol..

I told my DH I wanted a truck mounted flame throwing grenade launcher for my commute to work every day. Somehow I don't think he is going to get me one for Christmas. :happy2:

You guys are certainly up on your guns and the damage they can cause - I am reading some of your links every day - quite interesting. 

Concussive shock - the way I understand it is that is the shock the body receives from the impact of the ammo. or that tight tense feeling someone gets when they hear shotgun shells being "loaded" in the gun, that "uh oh" shock..


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Forerunner said:


> Swiss/German.....rifle....20mm......anti-tank....*shoulder-fired*. :thumb:


Ouch! That'll leave a mark.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

20mm Anzio.. 

If you can hold that up to your shoulder much less fire it, I wouldn't mess with you even if you didn't have a gun.. 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ft2j6J4NcY[/ame]


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## dheat (Jul 27, 2005)

I've only read the first few posts, so please forgive me if this has already been stated...

IMO, only 12 or 20 gauge shot guns should be considered. Primarily because you're much more likely to find shells in quantity locally. You might find a bargain on a 10 or 16 gauge, but you'd be hard pressed to find shells in quantity locally.

My two cents.

Doug


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## OH Boy (Dec 22, 2010)

A 12 gauge will be more versatile than a 20 gauge (much broader selection of shot sizes and light/heavy loads available, and also somewhat easier to find ammo for. Everyplace that sells ammo will have 12 gauge loads. Not all will have 20 gauge. Also I believe a 12 gauge with a light 1 oz load will have less recoil than a 20 gauge with the same 1 oz load, as the 12 gauge shotgun will be heavier and therefore absorb more of the kick.


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## wannalive (Aug 29, 2013)

Huh.. I just shot a piece of 3/4 ply wood last weekend with 7 1/2 bird shot from 25 feet... I have a very tight turkey choke in the gun.. It left a 4" hole in the plywood... I'd have a hard time believing that wouldn't kill a man shot in the middle of the chest... 

On the flip side, I'm not one to discount 4 or 5 .22's shot into a guys chest either.. .In a fight, I'm gonna grab what's handy..
its not that the bird shot wont work.. its just why limit yourself.. and yes a 22 cal can and will kill, but since were lucky enough to have time to prepare before hand.. why not stock up on something alittle more lethal... but I agree, if all I had available was a 22. yes u would use it.. just fill em up with holes


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Practice with light load ammunition, and get your skills and comfort level down. Then, load with heavy stuff to take down whatever threat (or game) you anticipate. When your shooting, for real, at something, your adrenaline takes over and you never notice the recoil.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

dheat said:


> I've only read the first few posts, so please forgive me if this has already been stated...
> 
> IMO, only 12 or 20 gauge shot guns should be considered. Primarily because you're much more likely to find shells in quantity locally. You might find a bargain on a 10 or 16 gauge, but you'd be hard pressed to find shells in quantity locally.
> 
> ...


I can get 10, 16, & 28 by the case at the local cabelas. That includes buckshot for all three and slugs in 10 & 16. So what you can find locally will vary by locality.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Chuck R. said:


> Wannalive,
> 
> 1st off, I simply asked a question, didn&#8217;t dispute anything. I subscribe to the FBI testing standards and only use ammo for HD or SD, that&#8217;s tested and meets the FBI&#8217;s requirements for penetration and expansion.
> 
> ...


That's all well & good for combat. but if you're not in a castle doctrine state, you're gonna have a tough sell on self defense with a solid core door between you & the bad guy. Likewise for shooting a shotgun across the street, it's going to require an unusual set of circumstances to be self defense. As for what may or may not happen, well if ifs & buts were candy & nuts everyday would be Christmas. In the house I'll stick with birdshot, specifically a pair of high brass 4s, then 2s and then a pair of T shells. If they're still kicking after all that at 20 feet, then I'll use the mossberg as a club & beat them to death.
You might want to reread the study you linked, it is talking about survival rates of people that actually reach the hospital alive and recieve nedical treatment. His statistics do not include people that are DOS or DOA.


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## wannalive (Aug 29, 2013)

I agree, the chances of needing to shoot farther than across the room are slim. but not nonexistent. I prefer to be ready or as many scenarios as possible.. including shtf, or teotwawki


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

3-3-3

Most self-defense shootings are done at 3 feet in 3 seconds with 3 shots.....

Most people never even practice something like that.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Pops2 said:


> That's all well & good for combat. but if you're not in a castle doctrine state, you're gonna have a tough sell on self defense with a solid core door between you & the bad guy. Likewise for shooting a shotgun across the street, it's going to require an unusual set of circumstances to be self defense. As for what may or may not happen, well if ifs & buts were candy & nuts everyday would be Christmas. In the house I'll stick with birdshot, specifically a pair of high brass 4s, then 2s and then a pair of T shells. If they're still kicking after all that at 20 feet, then I'll use the mossberg as a club & beat them to death.
> You might want to reread the study you linked, it is talking about survival rates of people that actually reach the hospital alive and recieve nedical treatment. His statistics do not include people that are DOS or DOA.


 
Pops,

Every door in my house is a solid core door, and I didn't say across the street, just outdoors. IF someone attacks one of your family outdoors, you're either going to have to employ a different weapon, or change ammo. Most home owners, or even your average shooter, have never practiced any type of ammo change (slug drills) with their shotgun under stress, so they're going to go "as is". 

Not everybody's circumstances are the same, my house is a little over 4000' and the longest shot indoors is close to 70 ft. Practical self defense scenarios are dictated by the threat, with distance being a factor, weapon being another factor, intent, so on, and so on. I'd submit that an assailant armed with a firearm doesn't have to be at any minimum distance to be a threat. A chucklehead with a handgun can be a danger at a greater distance than your birdshot's effectiveness. With birdshot you're setting yourself up for a particular set of circumstances (pretty favorable IMHO) that may or may not happen. 

Being prepared for the worst case, is just that, not a favorable set of circumstances like a clear shot, or being afforded multiple hits after slowing an attacker down with your first round of #4s. It may work, it may not, like you said..."Ifs and Christmas" but I prefer not to depend on "gifts from Santa" when it comes to self defense. So I use the most effective shell possible against a human target. 

After 23 years in the Army, a few deployments (never carried a shotgun BTW), a couple of tactical shotgun classes, a police academy and reading a bunch of chit I've come to some conclusions and done my own risk assessment. You've obviously done your own, and for you a mix of 4's through T's work, for me it doesn't.

Since the odds of either of us changing the other's mind are Slim & none (Slim having left town) we can just lay out our points of view and let others decide. 

I re-read the article, couldn't find where it said whether they were at the hospital or not. Like I said there's not too much research available on actual shotgun shootings. If you can find some please post, always willing to learn.

Chuck


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## wogglebug (May 22, 2004)

The 20 gauge is surprisingly close to the 12 gauge in performance, with generally less recoil.
HOWEVER, remember basic physics - *to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.*
So, picture you standing in a kids trolley, with a rock. The trolley has mass like a firearm. the rock is like the projectile, or charge of shot. You, of course, are the shooter.
Throw the rock away (like shooting a charge of shot). The trolley recoils.
Use a bigger rock. The trolley recoils even faster (like a shotgun does).
Throw faster - faster recoil (equal and opposite reaction).

That's a problem with the 20 gauge - the gun is generally built lighter than a 12 gauge, so it recoils faster (OUCH) for a similar charge.

To reduce recoil in a 12 gauge, shoot slower, or smaller charge. It still throws plenty to do damage. This basic physics hasn't escaped the ammo manufacturers, who have to deal with current-day police who may be little girls half the weight that big bruiser cops used to be. They have a whole range of ammo (fancy names like "tactical" or "reduced recoil" or like that) that behave like 20-gauge, but there's a heck of a lot more variety than there used to be 10 years ago.

I'd go for a 12-gauge, and adjust the recoil with the shot - much more variety, and you can get a heavier gun (less recoil) shooting a variety of shot.

As for the pistol, I wouldn't say you're wrong, or have been told wrong. A .357 Magnum *double-action* revolver, maybe with a good gunsmith having worked over the trigger, is a good firearm. If necessary, use lighter ammo, down to .38 Special, maybe even semi-wadcutter target (low recoil, flat-front thumper) to control it.

HOWEVER, your husband may not need it. there's a simple trick to work the slide, for people with hand trouble. Very often works, simply.
You get taught to hold and pull the slide with the weak muscles of your fingers and thumb. 
DON'T! INSTEAD, hold the pistol with your right hand (assuming right-handed (reverse for left handed)). Clamp down over the top of the slide with the left hand, then push the pistol forward with your right through the slide held with your left. CLICK - done. You're using big strong muscles locked-up to get it done - upper body and maybe even swivel hips and body weight to push whole body through the slide in your left hand, rather than weak fingers and thumb pulling back. Heck, if necessary, you swivel hips and use most of your body strength.

Have him try that, and if necessary find someone who knows how (surprising how many who are supposed to or say they know shooting don't know this) to train him.

Still doesn't say you shouldn't use a revolver, but knowing the options is a good thing.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Chuck R. said:


> Pops,
> 
> Every door in my house is a solid core door, and I didn't say across the street, just outdoors. IF someone attacks one of your family outdoors, you're either going to have to employ a different weapon, or change ammo. Most home owners, or even your average shooter, have never practiced any type of ammo change (slug drills) with their shotgun under stress, so they're going to go "as is".
> 
> ...


The article is SPECIFICALLY written about TREATING wounds and the percentages of success, it is NOT about general lethality.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Thank you for explaining the ammo and recoil factors. That makes sense to me. I gave dh a link to this thread so he can read it. 

I saw a real interesting gun on TV this week. It was on the gun show that has the two guys who try to outdo each other shooting targets in the shortest time. It looked like a hybrid rifle but I didn't get the name of it. Anyone here watch that show? The guys are usually riding in an ATV and shoot from behind block walls then run to the next spot, aim and shoot.  I wouldn't want that type of gun but it is interesting to see the details. For the life of me I can't recall the show's name. I do prefer hunting shows though 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Homesteading Today mobile app


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

Sidepasser... I didn't bother to read the complete thread, just read the last few posts on page 3.

Only thing I can say regarding your questions is get a gun you feel comfortable with. And practice with it, or them, as much as you can! No matter whether a 12 or 20 ga, 44 mag or 22 LR. Get familiar with your gun, like it was your sweetheart. When your shooting targets, imagine it was a bad guy next to your bed when your waking. You've got to hit the target to make it count, caliber and gauge make no difference unless it connects.

The replys I did read... birdshot is a very formidable defense for house ranges. from what I have seen. Pretty limited, I realize. I shot a coyote in my grain room at about 20' with a light load of #8 with a 12. Left a hole I could stick my fist through, and I've got big mitts.

There is a 20 gauge loaded with 3" number 4 within easy reach of the bed. a 12 with field loads on the other side, as well as a mini-14. One 9mm sleeps uptop, with another on the other side, with a mag lite in between.

I don't think I'm paranoid, but woe unto the person that wished to take advantage of a situation regarding me. I just choose to be prepared, cuz situations needing an equalizer, are creeping into middle America small towns at an alarming rate.


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## Raymond James (Apr 15, 2013)

I only have one recommendation Remington 870 pump action . Now days I would get it in a synthetic stock. I would not recommend a tactical version but rather a regular shot gun that you can hunt with. 

After you have hunting shot gun then you might consider getting a just in case type of gun. 


If you have trouble with recoil don't use magnum loads, fire 2 12 inch shells, hold gun tighter, get a recoil pad. 

Not a fan of lights on guns. Hunt legally in daylight, if using for defense why give away your location with the light?


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