# Help! Goat down - no vet in area!



## Raftercat5 (Apr 14, 2005)

It's a 7-month old wether that's down. No fever. Hubby & I have to doctor our goats ourselves, since no vets in this area will take care of a goat. We're treating him for possible urinary calculi, as that seems to be the most common thing for wethers, according to what we've read. We've been dosing him with 40cc ammonium chloride (mixed w/water as per instructions) and have been giving him 3 cc daily of penicillin G. He has been down for 4 days now, and I'm dreading going out to the barn this morning to check on him, fearing he will be dead. He acts like his back legs are paralyzed, and yesterday, he looked bloated, so I pressed gently on the side of his belly, and it felt like he's full of air. I've been giving him lots of water thru a medicine dose thingy that holds 3cc at a time, refilling it over and over. He's eating a little bit. No crying heard, except yesterday when I tried to get him to stand up. He's alert when I go in there. I know he's urinated, because I have been covering him at night with a towel, as it's been in the 50's at night here, and he wet the towel. His urine looks bright orange, so I knew I needed to increase his water. I've mixed it with sugar, so the ammonium chloride would be more palatable for him. He's had some bowel movement, and it appears normal. Still, it's a struggle, but I don't want him to suffer. My question is, since he's urinating, could it be urinary calculi, or should we be treating him for another possible illness...and if so, WHAT? Thanks in advance for all and any suggestions. He's our first sick wether.
- Kathy


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## steff bugielski (Nov 10, 2003)

If he is urinating normal with no pain or struggle it is not UC. It could be many other things I am not one to let something like that go for 4 days. i would have called a vet even if not in the area just to ask some questions. Hopefully someone will come on line who knows more


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## Raftercat5 (Apr 14, 2005)

Steff: I don't know of any vets in a 100 mile radius that know about goats. I've looked around and asked around, believe me. They only take care of cats & dogs around here. More profitable. Grrr. I should've mentioned that this wether lives with one of his triplet brothers and a doeling, and they are both healthy. They were put in a different pen when we noticed he was sick. The sick wether just pushes the dirt around in his pen with one front leg. The other one seems to be paralyzed as of last night. The hind legs too. Maybe numb (?) from lying on that same side, but I don't know. Before he couldn't walk, he was acting wobbly on his hind legs. Maybe something wrong with his spine, I'm thinking now. He doesn't appear to be in pain. But yesterday, he was shivering a little. I think it's fear, because when I went in and comforted him, he stopped shivering.
I'm just at a loss now trying to figure out what's wrong.


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## Rockytopsis (Dec 29, 2007)

Just a thought here, do you have any Vit. B you could give him?


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## Rockytopsis (Dec 29, 2007)

Another thing, if he seems to be bloated, give him a baking soda ball followed by water.


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## Rockytopsis (Dec 29, 2007)

I have also read that Apple Cider Vinegar will help with the peeing.


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## prairiedog (Jan 18, 2007)

put a call in to the nearest university school of vet medicine they will at lest give you an idea


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Is he eating? What?

If he's peeing I would stop the AC for now. It's just another stress at this point.

How much does he weigh?

What concentration is the PenG?

If he's bloating his side will feel tight like a basketball. Pat the others for reference.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Some probios or active yogurt wouldn't hurt either.

Is it possible he got thumped by another goat?


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

my answer might be not so popular but if i would have an animal down for this long, obviously in pain, i would not let it suffer for four days. it is one of our responsibilities to end a (life) situation if there is no change in sight.

get a hold of goat breeder in your area and ask for a vet. 
where exactly are you located? to help find a vet, you could also call ADGA and ask for breeder near you that might be able to share what vet they are using.

in the mean time, did you take his temperature? is he still eating? 
he is bloated because he is down. try to get him up so he can pass the air. 
do you have white tail deer in your area?

what is is body condition? when was the last fecal check? eyelid color? what wormer did you use?


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

Just the basics - is his temp normal, is he given any grain, did you check his gums and membranes color? When was he last wormed? Is he chewing his cud? At the very least I'd give B complex shots and Probios. It sounds serious and perhaps beyond your scope of self-treatment.


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## dunroven (Dec 6, 2004)

Sounds to me like he might have eaten something he shouldn't have or maybe overeaten, hence the bloat. If that is the case, you have to get the belly rumbling. Can you hear anything in the intestine area? If not, give the soda ball as mentioned, just wet up a bunch of baking soda lightly and form a ball and put in his mouth and make sure he swallows it. Then try pushing some on the stomach. Also, if you have any activated charcoal, give about 2tablespoons and that will help soak up whatever isn't supposed to be in there. If his legs are stiff that does mean pain, which any pain, will cause that. They just stiffen up. You might also try giving a little Pepto Bismol to help ease the stomach pain, if this is the problem.

I had one that I finally did have to put down. Its not pleasant at all, and I tried everything I could think of before doing it.

I wish you luck with this baby. Hard to deal with, I know, you get so attached to them.


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## QoTL (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm very new to goats, so I'm going to throw this out, and see if anyone has any thoughts..

Goat polio (is it officially called listeriosis?) Not too clear on signs/symptoms, but I thought paralysis was a huge part of it. I'll go hunt up a link.

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/listeriosis_gwmf.shtml

From that article:


> It is also called "circling disease". It usually starts with the animal showing weakness on one side. It will then only be able to walk in circles, and eventually becomes totally paralyzed and dies. Sometimes it can be saved with massive doses of antibiotics.


and this:


> To recover, a goat MUST get thiamine ASAP. When given IV thiamine soon after onset of symptoms, the recovery can be startlingly rapid. If pure thiamine is unavailable, a B-complex injectable (available over-the-counter at farm supply stores) is better than nothing. If THAT is also not readily available, you can try thiamine tablets or capsules for people, if the goat can swallow. If he does start to recover, be sure to give him probiotics to get the rumen flora back in order.


I'm not diagnosing your goat here. I'm very new, and certainly no vet. I'm just putting this here as another possibility. 

Meghan


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

My thought was polio, too. Also, get some B-vitamin injectable (Thiamine IS B-1) and run in under the skin; that will help with his rumen function. 

this is from Tennessee Meat Goats site:


GOAT POLIO OR LISTERIOSIS?
Different Causes, Similar Symptoms, Similar Treatments

Goat Polio (Polioencephalomalacia) is a metabolic disease with symptoms that often mimic or overlap those of the brain-stem disease Listeriosis (Listeria monocytogenes). 
Polioencephalomalacia (also known as Cerebrocortical Necrosis) is basically thiamine (Vitamin B 1) deficiency. Any change in the rumen's environment that suppresses normal bacterial activity can interfere with thiamine production. Too much grain decreases the pH of the rumen, predisposing the animal to Goat Polio. Glucose cannot be metabolized without thiamine. If thiamine is either not present or exists in an altered form (thiaminase), then brain cells die and severe neurological symptoms appear.

Causes of thiamine deficiency include feeding moldy hay or grain, using amprollium which is a thiamine inhibitor (brand name CoRid) when treating coccodiosis, feeding molasses-based grains which are prone to mold (horse & mule feeds), eating some species of ferns, sudden changes in diet, the dietary stress of weaning, and reactions to the de-wormers thiabendazole and levamisole. Each of these conditions can suppress Vitamin B1 production. The usage of antibiotics destroys flora in the rumen and can cause thiamine deficiency. It is important to repopulate the gut with live bacteria after using antibiotics or diarrhea (scour) medications. 

Goat Polio generally occurs in weanlings and very young goats, while Listeriosis most frequently affects adult goats. An increase in Goat Polio occurs in North America during winter when the availability of forage and quality hay is low and producers start feeding increased amounts of grain or expect goats to survive on very poor pasture. 

Symptoms of Polioencephalomalacia can be any combination of or all of the following: excitability, "stargazing," uncoordinated staggering and/or weaving (ataxia), circling, diarrhea, muscle tremors, and blindness. Initial symptoms can look like Entertoxemia (overeating disease). There is a component of "overeating" involved in that the rumen flora has been compromised. As the disease progresses, convulsions and high fever occur, and if untreated, the goat generally dies within 24-72 hours. 
Thiamine is the only effective therapy, and treatment can result in improvement within a few hours if the disease is caught early enough. Thiamine is an inexpensive veterinary prescription. Producers should always keep thiamine on hand; the most commonly available strength is 100 mg/ml. Dosage is based on the goat's weight (4-1/2 cc per 100 pounds liveweight for 100 mg/ml thiamine) and must be given every six hours on a 24-hour cycle until all symptoms have disappeared completely to avoid relapse. Thiamine, like all B vitamins, is water soluable, so the goat eliminates daily what it doesn't utilize in the rumen. A sick goat's rumen doesn't produce B vitamins, hence the importance of adding them to the goat each day until it gets well. Initially thiamine should be given IM (into the muscle) but can be given SQ (subcutaneously) or even orally after several days of treatment. Some thiamine comes in 500 mg/ml strength, making the required dosage 1 cc per 100 pounds bodyweight. If thiamine is unavailable but the producer has injectable multiple B vitamins, check the label for how much thiamine (Vitamin B1) is present. Fortified Vitamin B Complex contains 100 mg/ml of thiamine, so the 4-1/2 cc per 100 pounds bodyweight dosage is appropriate. Injectable multiple B vitamins containing only 25mg/ml of thiamine require four times the 100mg/ml dosage (18-1/2 cc) per 100 pounds bodyweight, so the producer can quickly see the importance of obtaining the proper strength of injectable B vitamins. The key to overcoming Goat Polio is early diagnosis and treatment. Complete recovery is possible under such circumstances.

Since symptoms of Goat Polio can easily look like Listeriosis, this writer recommends that procaine pencillin also be used. Better to cover both possible illnesses with appropriate treatments when symptoms are so similar than risk the goat's dying. Administer high doses of procaine penicillin (300,000 International Unit strength) every six hours on a 24-hour basis until all symptoms have disappeared and another 24 hours have passed. Higher-than-normal dosage of procaine penicillin is needed to cross the blood brain barrier to put sufficient amounts of the antibiotic into the tissue of the goat's central nervous system. A chart of dosage by bodyweight accompanies this article. Give this medication SQ over the ribs with an 18 gauge needle so that the goat doesn't become a pin cushion of holes from repeated injections. Very Important: Continue all treatment until 24 hours *after* the last symptom has disappeared to avoid a relapse.

Listeriosis is a brain-stem disease caused by the bacteria Listeria monocytogenes, which is found in soil, water, plant litter, silage, and even in the goat's digestive tract. The bacterium generally enters the goat's body through the mouth and multiplies rapidly in cold temperatures. There are two forms of Listeriosis: one form results in abortions, while the other causes encephalitis. Both types are seldom seen at the same time in the same herd. The organism can be shed in the milk of both carrier and sick goats. Listeriosis is potentially zoonotic (able to be transmitted to humans.) Like Goat Polio, Listeriosis is most often seen in intensive management situations. Unlike Goat Polio, Listeriosis is more common in adult animals than in kids. Because some goats are carriers who never display any symptoms, it is possible to buy infected animals and introduce this disease into a previously uninfected herd.

Listeriosis is brought on by feeding silage, suddenly changing type and kind of feed (grain or hay), parasitism, dramatic weather changes, and advanced stages of pregnancy. The encephalitic form is most common, causing inflammation of the nerves in the goat's brain stem. Symptoms include some or all of the following: depression, decreased appetite, fever, leaning or stumbling or moving in one direction only, head pulled to flank with rigid neck (similar to symptoms of tetanus), facial paralysis on one side, blindness, slack jaw, and drooling. Diarrhea is present only in the strain of Listeriosis which causes abortions and pregnancy toxemia. Listeriosis can be mistaken for rabies. Immediate treatment is critical. There is no time to waste with Listeriosis. Recovery is more difficult and time-consuming than Goat Polio. A goat can go blind and completely recover its eyesight and overall health if proper treatment is provided; such treatment can take days or even weeks, depending upon the severity of the illness and how quickly treatment was begun. 

Treatment involves administration of high doses of procaine penicillin (300,000 International Unit strength) every six hours on a 24-hour cycle up to and through 24 hours after the last symptom has disappeared to avoid relapse. Higher-than-normal dosage of procaine penicillin is needed to cross the blood brain barrier to put sufficient amounts of the antibiotic into the tissue of the goat's central nervous system. A chart of dosage by bodyweight accompanies this article. Very Important: Continue all treatment until 24 hours *after* the last symptom has disappeared to avoid a relapse. Give the procaine pencillin SQ over the ribs with an 18 gauge needle so the goat doesn't become a pin cushion of holes from repeated injections during this intensive treatment. This author also uses Vitamin B 1 (Thiamine) along with the penicillin treatment. Thiamine is an appropriate addition to treatment of any sick goat. Dosage is outlined above in the Goat Polio section of this article. Dexamethasone ( cortico-steroid) injections can be used to reduce brain stem swelling. Dexamethasone will induce labor in pregnant does, but the doe is likely to abort anyhow as a result of this infection, so producers might be wise to abort the pregnancy if they wish to save the sick doe. Dexamethasone dosage is 5 to 6 cc per 100 pounds bodyweight given IM in decreasing amounts daily. Example: Goat is 100 pounds liveweight. Dosage is 6 cc into the muscle on Day One, 5 cc on Day Two, 4 cc on Day Three, 3 cc on Day Four, 2 cc on Day Five, one cc on Day Six, nothing on Day Seven. If the goat is over 100 pounds, drop dosages daily in increments of two or three cc's. Example: Dose a 200 pound goat at 12 cc on Day One, 10 cc on Day Two, 8 cc on Day Three, 6 cc on Day Four, 4 cc on Day Five, 2 cc on Day Six, nothing on Day Seven. Dexamethasone should be tapered off rather than quit abruptly. This writer would be reluctant to use Dexamethasone on young kids six months of age or less except under the direction of my veterinarian.

NOTE ON HYDRATION/NUTRITION: Do not fail to keep the sick goat hydrated and fed. With Goat Polio and Listeriosis, a goat is usually totally off feed and water. This means that the producer must stomach tube nutrients (electrolytes, energy, protein) into the goat. A 100 pound goat needs one gallon of fluids daily. That is 3,840 cc's. No producer can syringe 3,840 cc's of fluids daily into a goat without stressing both the goat and the caregiver. All of the proper medications won't save a goat if that animal dies of dehydration/starvation.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

He would be dead in 4 days, or at least gravely ill with a very high temp as he dies of septicemia from a burst bladder if it was urinary calculi, if the AC was given in enough amount than he would be up by now, the pennicillin would do nothing for UC.

If it was polio he would be dead by now without thiamin and not eating. 

The problems with not having a vet is that you can't get drugs that help in simple problems...Thaimin instead of using Fortified B complex or worse B complex. Banamine to take the edge off pain so they can eat and feel better. Dex, a powerful steroid that can stop the paddeling he is doing with his front legs from being down in the rear and stop the brain and likely swelling of the spinal cord from menengial worm or listerosis (Pennicillin wasn't given orally or likely enough given subq) or a smack to the head by another animal...my guesses.

If you are vetless so your medicine cabinet can't treat neurological problems than your choice is simple, when you have problems like this espcially in a wether that was destined for the freezer is to butcher him rather than treat him.

Check the feed and your hay and especially feeders for mold. 

Is he in with an agressive herdmate that he butts heads with?

Do you have white tail deer in your area and/or is your hay from fields that have white tail deer? It's menengial worm season for us as new hay is cut and is being fed, and deer season starts. Vicki


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## Rockytopsis (Dec 29, 2007)

Raftercat5, sorry we could not give you just one answer, but how is you goat today?


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## oberhaslikid (May 13, 2002)

Raftercat you need to go read up on this articial.I have delt with this and its not nice.Please this is what it sounds like.
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/meningealworm.html


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## Raftercat5 (Apr 14, 2005)

First let me say thank you to all that responded to my post about the wether that is down. He's still alive. It's been almost a week now. He is urinating fine. He doesn't have bloat. My husband researched online and we are pretty sure it's goat polio. All the replies here were excellent info...thank you so much. We've been treating with oral (tablets) of thiamine and penicillin (sq). It's not easy giving a goat a pill! We have a tool for it, but it still is difficult. Poor lil' guy is still down. He's eating and drinking thru a medicine plunger thing with a metal tube that I fit just inside his cheek. I can't think of what it's called. He's getting about a qt. a day of water, small amt. of horse feed and hay (which we just got, and he doesn't care for) and handfuls of oak leaves with acorns for his browse. He loves it, and didn't get much of it before because he was raised in a separate part of the barn away from his mama so we could wean him. When we tried putting him with the herd, he'd just nurse again, so we had to keep him away from her, and thus, he couldn't get browse in his small area, along with another wether (his brother) and another doeling. I've since been giving them leaves & acorns for browse. I've learned that goats can't just eat grain and hay, especially since this one didn't seem to care for the hay. All the other goats eat it and are fine. So I know it's not bad hay or moldy grain. I think our treating him with thiamine (and Vit B1 at the start until we got the thiamine) might have been a little late, as he's not improving. He just lays there. At times, it seems like he can somewhat move his legs (all 4 are affected now). I don't want him butchered, as his meat probably wouldn't be fit to eat, but I don't want him to suffer. He doesn't appear to be in any pain. He just looks bored. I tend to him 3 x day, and roll him over, massage his side and legs, and even do leg therapy on him. If he does "come back" it will benefit him, I'm sure. My husband thinks we should put him down and bury him, but is willing to give it another week. (til next Wed., Oct. 15). I'll try to get online more often to keep y'all posted. Thanks again.
- Kathy


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Can you get injectible B vitamin from the vet? It's not very expensive. It's not very hard to give them a shot. Just pinch a little tent on the side of his neck and slip the 21 ga needle in. Most of the time they don't even flinch.

Are you giving him probios or active yogurt? That's critical for him to get the benefits of the food.

Is he weaned completely? How long? I wonder if it might be better to put him back on milk a while????


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## Raftercat5 (Apr 14, 2005)

Fishhead: We did give him Vit. B Complex at the start, but it doesn't have the amt. of thiamine he needs if it is indeed polio. Yes, we gave it subcutaneously. He also has been getting probios (5 ml). He's about 60-70 lbs. He's been weaned long enough now that he could probably go back with his mama, but now he can't get up to go. I did try giving him a little milk mixed with water, just to get him to drink it easily. He loved it. He has no problems drinking, tho, as long as I'm feeding it to him. Even after reading all that I've read on polio, I don't know if it's contagious, so I've been watching his brother and other doeling. They are fine. Butchering, tho, isn't an option, as I wouldn't eat meat from a sick animal, and now he's got meds in him. We'll continue with the thiamine/probios/penicillin/grain/water/browse/Vit. B/massages/therapy and hope we get results before next week. Did I leave anything out?
- Kathy


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Polio is caused by problems in the gut from what I understand. That stops the production of thiamine hence the need for injections. Your vet should be able to get you some straight thiamine instead of the complex.

I hope he improves. It's good that he has you to care for him. Lots of goats aren't that lucky.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Oraly B vitamins simply won't work as you are seeing. Use mega doses of the B complex injecable if you have to, get the thiamin number up, he will pee out all the extra b12 etc, anyway. Order right now some Fortefied B complex so you don't have to give such big shots of this. Jefferspet.com or even call around perhaps a feed store has it or TSC? If you can't treat him because you can't get meds than put him down. Vicki


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## Raftercat5 (Apr 14, 2005)

Vicki: Our wether is still alive. I'm feeding him while he's lying down, and also giving him water with a medicine drencher. He doesn't appear to be in any pain. He has a good appetite. I will try your advice of "mega-doses" of B Complex. How much is "mega-doses"? He's about 65 lbs. in weight. We've been giving him thiamine tablets (400 mg. daily). He still has no use of his legs, and when I try to sit him up to massage his side he's been laying on, he just would roll back down if I let go. Today was going to be the day we were going to put him down, but I thought I'd check here one more time, just in case there was any more advice. I will try...but need to know HOW MUCH B Complex to give daily? So far, he still looks healthy, other than being down for so long now (2 weeks). Thanks, Vicki...so much.
- Kathy


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## crazygoatgal (Jan 15, 2008)

Sending prayers for you guys.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

if he is not dead yet, he will die from pneumonia very soon. why waited so long to ask for the b-complex dosage???????? you can not overdose with vit b a this is water soluble and what is not needed will be peed out
i feel very sorry for this poor animal.


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## crazygoatgal (Jan 15, 2008)

susanne said:


> if he is not dead yet, he will die from pneumonia very soon. why waited so long to ask for the b-complex dosage???????? you can not overdose with vit b a this is water soluble and what is not needed will be peed out
> i feel very sorry for this poor animal.


We all do but you sound rather contrite and I truly hope you are not. We all make mistakes and I had the same thing happen to me and my poor little doeling suffered for my mistakes and eventually died. It was heartbreaking for me and I vowed to never let it happen again to any goat of mine. But I was new to the "polio" thing. Not one of my friends made me feel like cr*p for my ignorance and helped me to learn what to do and not to do. That was more valuable to me than anything negative they could have said.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

If he has been in pain all this time I would have put him down also. 
If you havn't decided to put him down, then I would suggest the following:

Try to get him to stand. It is possible that he doesn't THINK he can stand, being he was down for so long, and he won't try until you make him aware that he CAN stand. There could be a psycological thing going on. This could be way off the mark but worth a shot.

Be sure to move him several times a day-legs etc. Also be sure to switch his positions (stomach-wise) as if you don't pneumonia will set in much quicker. Even better if you have a weigh sling, sling him up for a bit each day.

Continue with suggestions you've already received.

If you can't get vet scripts from a qualified vet, you can order them online from Vet-Serve USA.

I don't know what is wrong with your wether. I do know if he were mine I wouldn't let this go on indefinately, and his level of pain would play a significant role in how long I would let this go on(i.e put him down).
HF


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

we all making mistakes and it is only human. i do make mistakes too, no better than anybody else. in this case though, she was told a couple of days ago to give the b-complex. this was avoidable. who has to suffer?


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

You guys! She's asking for DOSEAGE! I don't know, but my advice to the original poster is: Give him 5cc under the skin 3x per day. It won't hurt, it can only help!!

I admire you for your efforts with the massage, and hands on care.


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## ufimych (Oct 15, 2008)

Postercard, I am new in this forum. It seems you have the same problme, which I currently have. We have vets, but their service costs more then any goat in our area. Nevertheless, they can answer the phone. My favorite goat, five years old, got sick. Cannot stand or walk, eats well and, but cannot walk. My told me that it is a parasitic worm transmitted by ticks from deer. Most of goats contracted this worm never walk again, but there is a slim chance. I bought what he suggested, syringes with liquid drugs and injecting the stuff daily, as scheduled. In a couple of days I will see, if it helps. I have dogs, which chase deer away very well.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Will he drink out of a pan? If so I would let him do that.

What's he eating? Are his pupils normal?


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Here's some links to dosages.

Here's the dosage for treating polio.

http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=ku2g3fsqdfk8grsjlu7se787p0&topic=83.0

Here's a conversion for B complex injections.

http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=ku2g3fsqdfk8grsjlu7se787p0&topic=66.0



I'm not convinced that just because an animal is down it is in pain unless it shows signs like teeth grinding or head pressing.


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## Raftercat5 (Apr 14, 2005)

OK, first let me say to those who I feel "slammed" me, I think you first need to re-read what I alreay wrote here about this wether. I'm asking for the CORRECT dosage from Vicki...as I respect her knowledge. He HAS been getting Vit. B complex according to the dosage bottle, but then Vicki said "mega-doses", so I was just asking what her "mega-doses" would mean. As of Vicki's "mega-doses" suggestion, this wether has gotten 12 cc 3xday of Vit. B Complex. Today is the first day. He got 2 of the 3 shots so far today, and will get the third shot tonight. He IS NOT IN ANY PAIN....I REPEAT FOR THOSE WHO SKIM OVER MY POSTS.....NOT IN ANY PAIN. I am doing the best I can, and have read much online about goat polio, and also about meningeal worms, white muscle disease, etc. All indications point to goat polio. He is peeing normally, and also having normal bowel movements. I'm massaging him 2xday so he doesn't get "bedsores". I tried standing him up, but his legs just were limp. When my husband gave his second shot today, he did kick with his hind legs, which gave me some premature hope that he may be improving somewhat. His appetite is great. I bring him browse, feed him grain, and quality hay. We started digging his grave, as we're being realistic, and know there's a good chance he won't get better after being down for 2 weeks. Today was going to be his last day, but then I read from Vicki about the mega-dose of B Complex. BTW....just in case you didn't read all the original posts, this wether DID GET PENICILLIN-G daily the first week he was down. He got 4cc orally and 4cc sub-q at that time. He also got Probios 2xday. He always had a good appetite. He has bright eyes, and shiny fur. Doesn't cry unless I take away his browse to give him his water dosage. If there's no substantial improvement within a couple or 3 more days, we'll put him down. We have done our best with the resources we have. Thank you to all the suggestions that came from the heart. Sorry everyone can't be so nice.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I'm curious why your are giving him a dosage of water? Won't he drink from a pan?

I've heard of people building slings to hold an animal up so that it can strengthen it's legs after being down for a while.

Good luck!


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## Raftercat5 (Apr 14, 2005)

fishhead said:


> Here's some links to dosages.
> 
> Here's the dosage for treating polio.
> 
> ...


Fishhead: Thank you for the links above. We were able to correctly calculate the dosage of B Complex for our wether. It's people like you who make this website a good thing.
- Kathy


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

is this the fortified b complex you are giving him? it is the thiamine that he needs. the fortified b complex has 100mg thiamine per 1ml. dosage would be 10 mg thiamine per 2 pound body weight. if you have given him the b complex and he is not getting better, it is NOT polio. 
you would also need to make a sling that you can hang from the rafter of your barn that he does not has to lay down and prevent him from getting pneumonia.

13 days ago, jill.costello posted an excellent article about polio,treatment and dosage of thiamine.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

You're welcome.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Hey Raftercat5,

If you are referring to my post as slamming you, I can assure you it was not meant that way. I am one who did indeed skim over the posts, but I did try to offer some advice that was not presented prior, and what I would do if the scenario was painful for the wether-things can change over a 2-week period. I'm not convinced it's polio, but I can't offer a suggestion as to what it might be, so I won't offer dosage amounts. I left that to others who have used it more frequently than I. I really do feel that we are all trying to help, in our own way of caring for our own goats.

Good luck with your wether.
HF


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

deleted double post.


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## sunshinemama_k (May 21, 2008)

I just spent two weeks helping one of my goats recover from the meningeal worm and it sounds very similar to what you have except she was stretching her neck up in a unnatural way in addition to what you posted. I also thought polio at first. Our vet recommended Ivermectin orally, and I don't remember how much because my husband did that part, but it was a little more than we usually would have used. The next day, she needed assistance and bloat control, but she was able to stand. Within three days, she was standing and taking steps unassisted. The meningeal worm goes into their spine and often causes paralysis to hind legs progressing to the front legs. You can research it more, but if your current program is not working, it may be worth an attempt to worm her. The meningeal worm is transmitted through slugs and deer, both of which we have on our property. It was a horrible experience, but I am glad we were able to get a good diagnosis, and with a lot of physical therapy (me holding her up and helping her move those legs) she is back out with the others. I wish you the best with your wether, it is so hard to see them down.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Your diagnosis of your goat was incorrect if oral Ivermectin helped. It is also incorrect that the paralysis goes to the front legs. If the mama worm imbeds to far forward into the spinal column as to make the front legs paralysied (only the body back from the swelling is paralysed) it would then effect the goats breathing and heart.

Menengial worm has very distinct pathology...it can go worse, much worse than a goat who is simply down, but worse is the larve coming out through the skin leaving very distinct patterns in the skin and at no other time would you have anything like them. Also the goat doesn't die from menegial worm they die from being down and not nursed..(food and water which they readily eat and drink) or opportunistic death from pnemonia or bloodloss from worms and cocci.

Thanks Fishead for posting that, most do not know what a waste of money regular B complex is on goats, it's nothing but busy work. Using Fortefied B complex or straight Thiamin from the vet is the only way to do any change in the thiamin/B1 in the body. Vicki


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## thatcompchick (Dec 29, 2004)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> Your diagnosis of your goat was incorrect if oral Ivermectin helped. It is also incorrect that the paralysis goes to the front legs. If the mama worm imbeds to far forward into the spinal column as to make the front legs paralysied (only the body back from the swelling is paralysed) it would then effect the goats breathing and heart.
> 
> Menengial worm has very distinct pathology...it can go worse, much worse than a goat who is simply down, but worse is the larve coming out through the skin leaving very distinct patterns in the skin and at no other time would you have anything like them. Also the goat doesn't die from menegial worm they die from being down and not nursed..(food and water which they readily eat and drink) or opportunistic death from pnemonia or bloodloss from worms and cocci.


Vicki,

I don't understand this, maybe I'm reading your post wrong? I have seen meningeal worm affect a goat in the neck area, without heart and lung issues. I have a doe here who has a slight paralysis to her neck from meningeal - now of course, meningeal can only be correctly diagnosed after the animal is DEAD from spinal/nerve matter, but this doe was treated by a University vet with ivermectin and it promptly stopped all further nervous damage. She runs with her head off to the side a bit, and this is NOT from myotonia - wasn't there before the meningeal episode when she 'went down' at the TN farm she came from.

However, with meningeal, the damage is permanent. But it is not true it only happens in the back legs. I also have a friend who had a doe who was paralyzed on one side of the body from meningeal - she actually was mobile, but awkward. Again, treated by a small ruminant specialist who diagnosed meningeal and with ivomec, and there was no further damage, but damage done, permanent.

Andrea
www.arare-breed.net


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Kathy, how is your little wether doing? I've been reading this post every time I'm on here & just hoping he's getting back to normal. I'm sure most people mean no harm in there posts everyone just wants to help. I think we are all just concerned, I know I have been, just didn't have any better advice than has been given already for you.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

A goat with menengial worm would only be paralysed from the inflammation around the cord where the host has set up housekeeping, from that spot back. Yes untreated it can cause permanate spinal cord damage or worse neurological problems. So in your case because (likely not killing the worm immedicatly with a single high dose use of Ivermectin, or of not using a steroid that would efficiently keep inflammation in the spinal cord and brain down, you have some neurological problems which isn't just in the rear of your goat like normal. 

So yes all sorts of things can happen to a down goat with this, but there is very specific things that happen each and every time....then from non treatment, or over the top treatments (like the photos of the ravaged sides of the goats from the larve, which aren't typical only if agressive debreeding is being done either manually or with chemicals) or if treatment is delayed and you then go on to pnemonia, etc...from a downed goat, or paralysis from neurological symptoms. But normally all symptoms after the disease are associated with gait in the rear legs.

The larve coming through the skin like jellied circular burns is certianly enough to diagnosis this correctly without necropsy. Nothing else would come close to how horrid this looks.

Another thing on the lesions, if they are in a place where the doe can self mutilate than they can become like the photo, but in the photos there were lesions where the goats most certainly could not reach. Vicki


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## thatcompchick (Dec 29, 2004)

Vicki - do you have a source for the lesions, etc - what you are describing sounds like warbles - I asked my vet, and he had not heard of meningeal coming through the skin. Was interested in giving him some tech info on this.

Paralysis from meningeal can occur ANYWHERE in the body. Not just back legs. You are incorrect on this. This is well documented from Merck - on through papers from vets. There is also a spinal tap you can do to diagnose - however it is not an effective test - very high amount of false positives.

Andrea


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

i tried googl search for skin lesions from meningal worm but did not come up with any. i would like to see pictures from this. we have a lot of white tail deer passing through and would be nice to know what to look for.


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

How is the boy doing?


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

http://users.1st.net/tspjael/threesprings/meningeal worm.htm
..................

It's not the first time that Merck is incorrect on goats. Vicki


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

thank you vicki. 
this is a link, everybody with goats in white tail deer should have on file.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

My computer antivirus program said that a "trojan" virus was attacking when I was at that website but it's possible that it was coming from some other place.


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## QoTL (Jun 5, 2008)

fishhead said:


> My computer antivirus program said that a "trojan" virus was attacking when I was at that website but it's possible that it was coming from some other place.


Nope- it was that site. Same thing happened to me when I just tried to access the page on "since she's been home". I have Windows defender though, and certainly wouldn't be the first false positive it's given me!


Meghan


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

I am very curious how the wether did. (Did I miss it?) Hope he recovered.


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## QoTL (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm wondering how he's doing, too, poor guy. Hopefully he's on his feet and driving Raftercat CRAZY


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## Sweet Goats (Nov 30, 2005)

I am not at all surprised that Raftercat is not on here telling us how he is, the way some people treated her.
I sure would not come back if I was treated that way.

I just wish that people would think about how you will sound to someone that is learning and trying to *get help*. Everyone was new to goats at one time, and you needed help at some point. I know some people believe they know it all and they are the only person that knows anything, buy as a person that likes to read the posts here and if I did not have some other place to go I would NEVER ask a question here because I would be afraid i will get a tongue lashing.

Just remember that people come here for help, not to be criticized. That is why some people here have been kicked off other forums, we all learn every day and when you think you know it all, I am sure *if *you would just listen, you would learn something new.

The only person I really listen to here that I totally whole hardly trust what she has to say is Vickie. Thanks Vickie for all your wisdom.


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## Raftercat5 (Apr 14, 2005)

Sweet Goats: Thank you for your kind words. I was probably overly-sensitive to any comments made about what I SHOULD HAVE done, etc. Anyway, I'm sorry to say the little wether is now gone. Like I said before, he was going to be butchered before he lost the use of his legs. Not knowing definitively what the cause was, we did not want to eat meat from a sick animal. We just wanted him to get well, and possibly find a home for him as a pet only (not as meat). That wasn't the case. I still believe it was polio, and that we didn't learn in time what needed to be done. Had we administered the thiamine the first day he was down, and continued it, he would've had a better chance at recouperating. But we didn't, so there was no improvement after late medical intervention. Rather than see him live the rest of his sad life alone in a separate room and being fed by putting a cereal bowl under his face and putting water in his mouth, and hand-picking leaves and acorns and putting hay within reach of his mouth, we thought it best to put him down and bury him. His skin was in good shape. No worms or rashes, etc. This was a learning experience, to be sure. I appreciate the people who tried to help and gave encouraging words. We've raised goats for 4 years now, and have learned alot, but also know there's a lot we don't know. It's places like this, with people full of knowledge and experience that makes it a bit easier for the newbies. I do appreciate all of you, even tho I feel some were a bit calloused in their posts. I was asking for help...not criticism. If I knew all the answers, I wouldn't be asking. I did what I could. Sometimes it's not the best thing, but I tried. Life goes on.
- Kathy


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

I'm sorry to learn the wether didn't make it. But It sounds like you did the best you could.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I'm very sorry you lost your wether. You did the best you could and then some. I'm sure he knew you were giving him the best of care and he had comfort. It must have just been a heart wrenching ordeal to go through. Hugs and prayers to you


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

So very sorry; it always hurts to lose them.


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