# lets do an about face



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Since our society is going down the toilet why don't we totally change tactics and bring back corporal punishments? Not only in our schools but in our whole society. Why should I pay to lock up a thief when a good public flogging costs next to nothing? The young man a few years ago that got his butt beat in Indonesia has probably kept his nose clean ever since. It makes sense to me.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I agree with your basic premise.... but why limit it to noncoms?


----------



## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

JJ Grandits said:


> Since our society is going down the toilet why don't we totally change tactics and bring back corporal punishments? Not only in our schools but in our whole society. Why should I pay to lock up a thief when a good public flogging costs next to nothing? The young man a few years ago that got his butt beat in Indonesia has probably kept his nose clean ever since. It makes sense to me.


 
..............I agree with spanking children as a method of discipline ! Flogging , whipping , etc. of anyone above the age of say 21 starts resembling methods which might be considered 'Islamic' in nature and I'm going to have a problem with that form of punishment . 
.............In my mind there is a big problem with how the justice system prosecutes innocent people and sends them off to prision . It seems some local DA's are more interested in establishing a high conviction rate by pursuing anyone who they can browbeat a confession , out of . , fordy


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

deleted by poster.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

fordy said:


> ..............I agree with spanking children as a method of discipline ! Flogging , whipping , etc. of anyone above the age of say 21 starts resembling methods which might be considered 'Islamic' in nature and I'm going to have a problem with that form of punishment .
> .............In my mind there is a big problem with how the justice system prosecutes innocent people and sends them off to prision . It seems some local DA's are more interested in establishing a high conviction rate by pursuing anyone who they can browbeat a confession , out of . , fordy


I don't think flogging is necessarily Islamic. We're just used to that association in this day and age. It was also a form of punishment used in Old Testament Israel and many other cultures. In my opinion it's more effective And more humane in many ways. In all the prescribed punishments for broken laws in the bible, none of them called for long stretches of confinement. In my opinion it's cruel and unusual to lock people in cages like animals....and it never reforms anyone.


----------



## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

This isn't an important debate that's going to determine the fate of future criminals, right? It's just people on a forum and each individual is expressing their personal opinion about what they think should be done to criminals, right?

So here's my personal opinion. I disagree with floggings or any other kind of physical beatings because it's outdated and barbaric, and it's cruel. It's what sadistic and bloodthirsty people who enjoy cruelty do to other people because they like seeing people suffer physical pain and anguish. The next step up from flogging is dismemberment and beheading, so why would cruel punishers stop at flogging when they can get their jollies by proceeding on to dismemberment and beheading? They won't stop.

I prefer putting criminals to hard and productive labour and isolation from the rest of society, and no luxuries allowed to them during their incarceration, until they've done their penance and paid society back through their production.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> Since our society is going down the toilet why don't we totally change tactics and bring back corporal punishments?


Teachers never had any legal authority to beat students. I suppose to bring it back we would need to take care of that little problem. So do you suggest that we license people to do it? What are the qualifications for such a license? Can I get one, and who do I get to beat?


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Corporal punshment was legal when we moved to North Carolina and there was a lot of it going on, epecially with junior high and high school students.

My youngest child went to a public 6th grade school. At that time all the 6th graders in our county went to one big school. It had a reputation for paddling children, boys, with a wooden paddle. The school was about 5 miles from where we lived. I went over there to the office with my child before school ever started and told them that I did not want my child whipped for anything. I told them to let me know immediately if there ever any dicipline problems concerning him. They said ok and it never happened but we would have taken them to court if they had laid a hand on him. That was our job if it needed to be done.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Let's try it out on politicians first to see how well it works.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> Corporal punshment was legal when we moved to North Carolina and there was a lot of it going on, epecially with junior high and high school students.


Without the legal authority to do it, it was never legal. Law enforcement might have ignored it, but it wasn't legal.

Where do you believe junior high and high school teachers derived their authority?


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I did not know it was legal until we had moved to NC. An elementary school teacher neighbor told me that it was and she is the one who gave me the heads up about the 6th grade school and their paddling abuses. The school was in kind of a remote area and she told me that the teachers and principles felt like they could do it there and so far, nobody had complained. There were some cases in court about children who were in high school and middle school. I remember that one parent won his case against a middle school principal because his 13 yr old had bruse marks.

I had not thought about it in a long time but looks like it is still going on in NC.

*No Laws Against Corporal Punishment In NC Schools*

WRAL 6:22 p.m. EDT September 16, 2014
http://www.wfmynews2.com/story/news...teachers-students-paddling-spanking/15714847/
*Corporal Punishment on Decline in N.C. Public Schools*

October 14, 2013 by Editor in Children's Health, NC Health Beats
Corporal punishment, once a standard behavioral tool in schools, is becoming less common in North Carolina. Teachers are now trained to use positive reinforcement, which research shows is more effective.
*By Marisa Grant*
A recent study by Action for Children North Carolina shows that the use of corporal punishment is on the decline in the state&#8217;s public school system. During the 2012-13 school year, there were 184 reported incidents of corporal punishment, down from 404 the previous year.
http://www.northcarolinahealthnews....-punishment-on-decline-in-n-c-public-schools/


----------



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Corporal punishment has always been used in places where jailing was not feasible, as in nomatic or no strong buliding or money to support jailed inmates.
It fell out of favor in many places as the ability allowed changing. But persists in places governed by ancient laws as in many Muslim counties or in places that still know what shame is.
And that last is why it will never happen here even if it became law- shaming only works in places where the society believe there are things to be ashamed of. Otherwise it is nothing other than pain and you have to go pretty far to achieve a significant amount of pain.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> No Laws Against Corporal Punishment In NC Schools


Sure there are. I'm confident that there are assault & battery laws in North Carolina. Local law enforcement is just not prosecuting it.

Imagine if a teacher misbehaved in the opinion of students, and they held the teacher down and beat him with a board. Could they rely on there being no specific law against paddling a teacher? I think not.

Interestingly, about 40 years ago I asked a teacher in Ohio where he derived legal authority to strike students. He replied that teachers have always done it. I thought that was pretty weak, coming from an college educated man.

I wonder, was paddling a motivation technique taught in college to these people?


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Nevada, you are wrong. 

This is 2 years old but there are still a lot of states that practice corporal punishment.



U.S.
Should Your Child Be Spanked at School? *In 19 States, It's Legal*
March 16, 2012 
http://abcnews.go.com/US/spanking-school-19-states-corporal-punishment-legal/story?id=15932135


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

fordy said:


> ..............I agree with spanking children as a method of discipline ! Flogging , whipping , etc. of anyone above the age of say 21 starts resembling methods which might be considered 'Islamic' in nature and I'm going to have a problem with that form of punishment .
> .............In my mind there is a big problem with how the justice system prosecutes innocent people and sends them off to prision .* It seems some local DA's are more interested in establishing a high conviction rate by pursuing anyone who they can browbeat a confession , out of *. , fordy


Yeppers, our jails and prisons are filled with innocents.... just ask them!


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Nevada said:


> Without the legal authority to do it, it was never legal. Law enforcement might have ignored it, but it wasn't legal.
> 
> Where do you believe junior high and high school teachers derived their authority?


From the parents
Now days, people get things given to them, free housing, free phones, free food, money for dope, they don't have to earn a thing, so they don't respect a thing.
They also don't respect other people, and they teach their kids not to respect other people.
In my day, if the teacher had to whip me, my parents were mad at me because I'd done something wrong.
Now the teacher is in trouble and the kids know they can get away with anything.
Thanks to liberals, this country is falling apart and our civilization is circling the drain.


----------



## Shoden (Dec 19, 2012)

gapeach said:


> Nevada, you are wrong.
> 
> This is 2 years old but there are still a lot of states that practice corporal punishment.
> 
> ...


To go even further, I looked up the source cited in that article, and found this link: http://www.gundersenhealth.org/ncptc/center-for-effective-discipline/discipline-and-the-law/state-laws. It doesn't list the specific laws for each state (links to the actual legal codes would be nice), but it does provide a lot more information, including when certain states banned corporal punishment in schools and summaries of just what type or how extreme the corporal punishment can be.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I notice there are no southern states on the list that have banned corporal punishment.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Sure there are. I'm confident that there are assault & battery laws in North Carolina. Local law enforcement is just not prosecuting it.
> 
> Imagine if a teacher misbehaved in the opinion of students, and they held the teacher down and beat him with a board. Could they rely on there being no specific law against paddling a teacher? I think not.
> 
> ...


Cmon now Nevada, even you should know that unless a law is passed against doing something it is legal to do it. 
I am also sure that you know the difference twixt spanking a kid that needs it and a beating or assault.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I also sent a letter to the school requesting no corporal punishment for my child. If he had done something that was not supposed to do or misbehaved in any way, I would have punished him myself. 

My other 2 children were in school at the time, my daughter in jr. high and my son in sr. high. I knew that they were not going to be hit because those 2 schools did not use corporal punishment. They used some other kind of punishment rather than physical.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Where do you believe junior high and high school teachers derived their authority?


From my parents.... mostly dad. I distinctly recall him giving the teachers the authority to spank me if I got out of line.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> From my parents.... mostly dad. I distinctly recall him giving the teachers the authority to spank me if I got out of line.


That's legitimate. If parents want to delegate that authority I suppose they have that right. Then the question becomes how much authority parents have to delegate.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I agree with your basic premise.... but why limit it to noncoms?


I saw what you did there


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

None of my children were ever spanked in school or even punished so it was a moot point with me. My husband felt the same as I did though. 

He and I went to a small rural school and both of us were spanked very hard there at various times for minor stuff like talking. (this was in the 40's) I never wanted my kids to experience that. If they had been discipline problems. we would have gladly gone to the school but luckily we never had to.
The kids were not perfect students but none of them were ever suspended or had any kind of behavior problems. Part of that time I worked at the school too so I would have known.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

If you think corporal punishment is barbaric, and cruel, and unusual I suggest you go visit someone in prison. I can't think of anyone I visit who would not gladly trade their sentence for a public flogging. Anyone who thinks that our schools would be worse off because the kids knew that they could get their backsides warmed is an idiot. Lets face it, our schools are a joke. The kids run rampant and the teachers can do nothing to control them. If your sweet little snowflake will be horribly traumatised for life because they took a whack on the rear end you pretty much messed up big time as a parent. You go to the mall and you can hear eleven and twelve year olds dropping F bombs all over the place. Don't tell me that a lack of discipline has had any positive effect on our society. We are destroying our children because of some stupid liberal clap trap. It's time to wake up.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> If you think corporal punishment is barbaric, and cruel, and unusual I suggest you go visit someone in prison. I can't think of anyone I visit who would not gladly trade their sentence for a public flogging.


Yeah, but it's that pesky constitution in the way again.


----------



## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

JJ Grandits said:


> If you think corporal punishment is barbaric, and cruel, and unusual I suggest you go visit someone in prison. I can't think of anyone I visit who would not gladly trade their sentence for a public flogging. Anyone who thinks that our schools would be worse off because the kids knew that they could get their backsides warmed is an idiot. Lets face it, our schools are a joke. The kids run rampant and the teachers can do nothing to control them. If your sweet little snowflake will be horribly traumatised for life because they took a whack on the rear end you pretty much messed up big time as a parent. You go to the mall and you can hear eleven and twelve year olds dropping F bombs all over the place. Don't tell me that a lack of discipline has had any positive effect on our society. We are destroying our children because of some stupid liberal clap trap. It's time to wake up.


 Yes spare the rod was the very bad idea. very Bad, and we sure are finding out how THAT one turned out.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> Yes spare the rod was the very bad idea. very Bad, and we sure are finding out how THAT one turned out.


Yes, but we're talking about college-educated, professional teachers here. You would think that they could do better than motivating through fear and intimidation.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> Without the legal authority to do it, it was never legal. Law enforcement might have ignored it, but it wasn't legal.
> 
> Where do you believe junior high and high school teachers derived their authority?


In loco parentis


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

MoonRiver, I know exactly what you are talking about and I know it is true. 2 of my children finished high school in the early 80's and one in the early 90's. It was not as bad as now. I was raised also with spare the rod, spoil the child. I know that at times it was what would be child abuse now. We swung the pendulum too far, not so much, my generation, but the baby boomers. 
The public school system is a mess. Even elementary school kids are wild as haddocks. I know that because my DIL is a teacher.
Beating them is not the answer. Teachers would be scared to death now to do that anyway.


----------



## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

I had a high school psychology teacher tell us if a child mis-behaved to distract them into doing something else. My question was "then how do they ever learn that their behavior was wrong?" A child doesn't understand self discipline, but they do understand being disciplined. As a child grows older you can hear him say "I'd never do that or my dad would whoop my butt." Then as an adult they would say "I'd never do that because it is wrong to do." Discipline grows into self discipline as the children age to adulthood. Some children all you have to do is look at them and they bust into tears and know not to do something, others it takes making your hand sting their butts to get the point across. I've had both kinds. I always worked under the principle of "get your child in the habit of obedience by 5 yrs old and your mostly set." I was never out of control when I disciplined them, if you get to the point of being at the end of your rope then you waited too long, better to discipline right away and not let it build up. The other thing I did was, when appropriate, make a theatrical production of it, stamp into the room, push a chair aside, lower the tone of my voice, then the kids knew they were in trouble. Usually that did it and I didn't have to go much further. On the flip side I also gave my kids room to be themselves, and didn't get on them too heavily" As an example I told my daughter " getting in the 90's in school is good, 80's are fine too. Well, if all you can do is something in the 70's that is acceptable, hey 65 is passing... even 40 on a curve is ok."  Sometime I think parents are trying to relive their lives through their children. By the way they all turned out good. My kids were never a problem in school because they knew better, conversely, if they were right I'd back them up. The problem today is those raising kids were never raised themselves and don't know how to. Their parents or grandparents believed Dr Spock, and psychologists and it all started to go down hill from there. Each generation becomes worse. Until these half witted psychologists who teach parents to feed their kids a thick peanut butter sandwich as punishment are flogged themselves nothing will change.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Nevada said:


> Yes, but we're talking about college-educated, professional teachers here. You would think that they could do better than motivating through fear and intimidation.



Thank you for providing an example of liberal clap trap. I appreciate your efforts. I guess you realize that it is not really fear and intimidation but respect for the rules of conduct and responsibility and learning the consequences of ignoring those rules or responsibilities. In my childhood in grade school corporal punishment could be used by the teacher. Everyone knew it. That is why it was so rarely used. It's kind of the same reason we do not break the laws today. We understand that there are consequences.


----------



## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Nevada; sometimes I think you are from Mars, or perhaps farther out. It is far more humane, and practical, to give a smart-mouth, uncooperative sixth grader a swat on the behind and send him back to class than it is to suspend him, put him in detention with a private tutor or just let him ruin his and the other children's education. 

I started out just as other poor kids do--with nothing. My parents had no education and very little money, but I was given to understand that if I was in trouble at school there was more trouble awaiting me at home. I earned my swats, but I darn sure never reported them at home.

Today the only teachers that I remember with any affection are those who got on my tail and made me learn. 
I've come a long way, and stayed out of jail, because of those kind and caring people who busted my butt when I had it coming. (And who overlooked a few things I thought I had put over on them.)

I hold that when a child does not respond to ordinary reason it is far more humane to DEMAND respect and attention than it is to abandon the child to his own resources. Spare the rod and spoil the child is ancient wisdom but it is still a fact in modern times. The words don't imply cruelty, they imply control and teaching.

I also agree that putting prisoners to work is a good idea. Letting them sit and rot in their cells is a bad idea, and costly. Why not put them to work growing their own food, or working in prison industries? It is done in some jurisdictions already. 
Ox


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

These days teachers have to think about "inappropriate touching" too. If I were a teacher today I would not swat a behind because of the possibility of a lawsuit. Even a hug can be taken out of context if a child tells the parent and the parent takes it the wrong way. Sad, but true.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Yeah, but it's that pesky constitution in the way again.


Really?!?! Which part of our Constitution prohibits punishment to fit the crime?


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> That's legitimate. If parents want to delegate that authority I suppose they have that right. Then the question becomes how much authority parents have to delegate.


In days gone by parents had nearly total authority over how their kids were raised. Then a feller by the name of Spock wrote a book......


----------



## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

Fennick said:


> This isn't an important debate that's going to determine the fate of future criminals, right? It's just people on a forum and each individual is expressing their personal opinion about what they think should be done to criminals, right?
> 
> So here's my personal opinion. I disagree with floggings or any other kind of physical beatings because it's outdated and barbaric, and it's cruel. It's what sadistic and bloodthirsty people who enjoy cruelty do to other people because they like seeing people suffer physical pain and anguish. The next step up from flogging is dismemberment and beheading, so why would cruel punishers stop at flogging when they can get their jollies by proceeding on to dismemberment and beheading? They won't stop.
> 
> I prefer putting criminals to hard and productive labour and isolation from the rest of society, and no luxuries allowed to them during their incarceration, until they've done their penance and paid society back through their production.


I agree. Putting prisoners into a clean, safe, prison labor job producing rather than consuming would save money and give prisoners a sense of self-worth. Such punishment is neither cruel, nor unusual. And what they generate financially in production could finance safer more secure prisons. Also, any extra gains due to their production could be used for restitution to victims. It seems prison industries should be the norm everywhere.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

If the outcome of being bad as a child leads to a stinging butt, the adult never has to find out how bad consequences can hurt in the real world when they do wrong. That's the reality of right and wrong. Wrong hurts, and it should.


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Woolieface said:


> If the outcome of being bad as a child leads to a stinging butt, the adult never has to find out how bad consequences can hurt in the real world when they do wrong. That's the reality of right and wrong. Wrong hurts, and it should.



I always found that taking privileges away worked better than a stinging butt. It only hurts for a little while but not going skating, not using the telephone worked much better.
Really, being confined to room and being on restriction worked more than anything else for pre-teen and teens.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Really?!?! Which part of our Constitution prohibits punishment to fit the crime?


You were suggesting a cruel punishment, which is prohibited by the constitution. Cruel punishment may fit the crime but the constitution makes no exception for that.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> You were suggesting a cruel punishment, which is prohibited by the constitution. Cruel punishment may fit the crime but the constitution makes no exception for that.


Any punishment is going to be "cruel" in the criminals eye.... thats the nature of punishment. A good old fashioned flogging is NOT any more cruel or unusual than locking a feller up for years of his life.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Any punishment is going to be "cruel" in the criminals eye.... thats the nature of punishment. A good old fashioned flogging is NOT any more cruel or unusual than locking a feller up for years of his life.


Ah yes, the good old days. At least the good old days as conservatives remember it.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Ah yes, the good old days. At least the good old days as conservatives remember it.


I would suggest "The good old days as our history recorded it" and do a bit of reading up on just what our founding fathers (those guys that wrote and agreed to our Constitution) found to be "acceptable punishment".


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Nevada said:


> That's legitimate. If parents want to delegate that authority I suppose they have that right. Then the question becomes how much authority parents have to delegate.


Well, if a parents choose to delegate education of their children delegation of behavior to me seems to go hand and hand.

A swat on the behind did change negative behavior when words and rule failed. I got it no biggie. 

Not a swat is not a beating.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> Well, if a parents choose to delegate education of their children delegation of behavior to me seems to go hand and hand.
> 
> A swat on the behind did change negative behavior when words and rule failed. I got it no biggie.
> 
> Not a swat is not a beating.


Does that extend to adults? If I run a business can I swat my employees for misconduct?

As a parent, if I think a teacher is out of line is it OK for me to swat the teacher? After all, I can't be charged with assault & battery for swatting a teacher, since a swat isn't a beating.


----------



## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

They still had the big wooden paddles when I was in school. Made in the wood shop, I'm sure. They were rarely used. The really incorrigible kids, it wasn't going to turn them around anyway, but for basically good kids who had made a bad choice it was very effective. It was humiliating more than painful, nobody wanted to go thru that again! We had a teacher who would make you "drop and give me 20". He said, if you didn't want to build a strong mind, he would build you a strong body.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Does that extend to adults? If I run a business can I swat my employees for misconduct?
> 
> As a parent, if I think a teacher is out of line is it OK for me to swat the teacher? After all, I can't be charged with assault & battery for swatting a teacher, since a swat isn't a beating.


At least you seem to recognize that a swat or spanking is not the same as assault... but you open yourself up to all sorts of sexual harassment charges if you start spanking your employees or your kids teacher without their consent... but then thats a whole nuther thread.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

MO_cows said:


> They still had the big wooden paddles when I was in school. Made in the wood shop, I'm sure. They were rarely used. The really incorrigible kids, it wasn't going to turn them around anyway, but for basically good kids who had made a bad choice it was very effective. It was humiliating more than painful, nobody wanted to go thru that again! We had a teacher who would make you "drop and give me 20". He said, if you didn't want to build a strong mind, he would build you a strong body.


Yeppers, I recall those paddles, made one for one of our teachers when I joined lettermans club. I dressed that one up a bit with leather lacing around the perimeter, painted his name on one side of it and "board of education" on the other.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> At least you seem to recognize that a swat or spanking is not the same as assault... but you open yourself up to all sorts of sexual harassment charges if you start spanking your employees or your kids teacher without their consent... but then thats a whole nuther thread.


I'd rather believe that if I struck a teacher or employee with a board for any other reason than self-defense that the police would consider it to be assault & battery.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I'd rather believe that if I struck a teacher or employee with a board for any other reason than self-defense that the police would consider it to be assault & battery.


Again you are confusing a spanking for the purpose of discipline or consensual eroticism with assault and battery. They are entirely different concepts.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Again you are confusing a spanking for the purpose of discipline or consensual eroticism with assault and battery. They are entirely different concepts.


"But your honor, I was only disciplining the teacher to correct his behavior."


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> "But your honor, I was only disciplining the teacher to correct his behavior."


That depends entirely upon what behavior you were disciplining the teacher for..... "Your honor the teacher was in the middle of sexually abusing my son when I walked in.... I felt the overwhelming desire to administer a bit of discipline. The 2x4 was leaning against the wall and it seemed like the right thing to do at the time."


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> That depends entirely upon what behavior you were disciplining the teacher for..... "Your honor the teacher was in the middle of sexually abusing my son when I walked in.... I felt the overwhelming desire to administer a bit of discipline. The 2x4 was leaning against the wall and it seemed like the right thing to do at the time."


I was thinking of striking a teacher for speaking out of turn, the same kind of thing a teacher might strike a student for.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Nevada said:


> Does that extend to adults? If I run a business can I swat my employees for misconduct?
> 
> As a parent, if I think a teacher is out of line is it OK for me to swat the teacher? After all, I can't be charged with assault & battery for swatting a teacher, since a swat isn't a beating.


Ok, now you are being foolish. Lets come back to Earth.

As I mentioned before, I regularly visit people in prison. Our Penal system is far crueler then any flogging. A flogging hurts for a few days or even weeks. Prison slowly destroys you minute by minute for years on end. It's a 24/7 agony. 

As far as swatting an employee for misconduct, I've worked in places like that. You can swat to your hearts content, but you better be man enough to take what comes back at you.
That Obamacare will come in handy.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I was thinking of striking a teacher for speaking out of turn, the same kind of thing a teacher might strike a student for.


Its pretty tricky for a teacher (the one with all the authority) to speak out of turn in the classroom. Students on the other hand will disregard any and all authority if they think they can get away with it. Now, that being said teachers also have some rules they must live by concerning their conduct in the classroom. If they fail to do so they can be fired. (disciplined) Kinda hard to fire a student when the whole object of his being in school is to get an education.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Nevada said:


> I was thinking of striking a teacher for speaking out of turn, the same kind of thing a teacher might strike a student for.


You would hit a Teacher for speaking out of turn? Sorry, the liberal censure of our freedoms have not gone that far yet. But who knows, if Hillary gets elected your wish may come true.


----------



## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Catholic prep school since 4th grade... rulers do have other uses than measuring, erasers are good projectiles (as is chalk)...funny thing...all my class mates went on to be productive members of society. Huh, imagine that... it didn't ruin us.
Plus, it was a rare occurance...wonder why?
Pretty effective.

Matt


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Roadking said:


> Catholic prep school since 4th grade... rulers do have other uses than measuring, erasers are good projectiles (as is chalk)...funny thing...all my class mates went on to be productive members of society. Huh, imagine that... it didn't ruin us.
> Plus, it was a rare occurance...wonder why?
> Pretty effective.
> 
> Matt


I went to public school but a lot of teachers were nuns and those tiny little French women had pitching arms that were good enough to qualify for the NBA. Like yourself, I turned out fine but I raised my kids with creative sentencing and no corporal punishment and all three are very productive members of society too. 

I'm not inclined to believe that it's the time invested and consistent discipline that make kids productive members of society.


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

The biggest obstacle is that there's no money to be made by administering corporal punishment. No jails or prisons to build, staff and maintain. A lot of people have invested a lot of time, effort and money in the current system. They're not likely to give it up without a fight.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> Ok, now you are being foolish. Lets come back to Earth.


Well sure, the idea of beating an adult the way teachers used to beat children is a foolish thought. But isn't beating children a worse offense?


----------



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I worked in a large middle school in S.C as an aide, helped in the office, and did the book keeping for the cafeteria while my children were there as students and I realized that any misbehavior or truancy at school has to have the parents involved or whatever punishment that was doled out meant nothing to the student. The parents have to follow up with their children at home to make them realize how serious the situation is. Many parents who were called by the principal's office were offended that they were even asked to come to the school and sometimes would not come. They felt that was the job of the administration there.


----------



## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

wr said:


> I went to public school but a lot of teachers were nuns and those tiny little French women had pitching arms that were good enough to qualify for the NBA. Like yourself, I turned out fine but I raised my kids with creative sentencing and no corporal punishment and all three are very productive members of society too.
> 
> I'm not inclined to believe that it's the time invested and consistent discipline that make kids productive members of society.


True, no need for corporal punishment when appropriate discipline (creative sentencing...I like that, BTW) is handed down. Even that is/was few and far between...when kids know better, they act better. And they know better by what they see and are told...not just told. If their folks behave poorly, they usually do as well.

Matt


----------



## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

The best discipline is example. If your kids love and respect you they will not want to disappoint you. The trouble comes when they make mistakes and are not corrected.
Remember that you are the parent, not a buddy.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Nevada said:


> Well sure, the idea of beating an adult the way teachers used to beat children is a foolish thought. But isn't beating children a worse offense?


You seem to have a hard time determining between a beating and corporal punishment used as discipline. A beating is given out in anger. Come into my yard, kick my dog, and you will get a very massive beating. Corporal punishment is used after other forms of discipline have failed. It is swift, brief and causes more shock then pain. Our Children knew that Mom or Dad would give them a whack if they needed it. Because they were aware of it we very rarely ever had to do it. They have all grown to be very productive members of society and my wife and I are quite proud of them.

Now in your past you may have been victim to the actions of an unstable or confused person and you have my sympathy because of it. But do not allow it to cloud you're reason.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> You seem to have a hard time determining between a beating and corporal punishment used as discipline. A beating is given out in anger.


I suspect that if I struck an adult with a board that he would consider it being beaten when he described it to police.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

I guess some people have never learned the difference between disciplining a child, self defense and criminal assault. There IS a difference, but if you haven't learned it by the time you reach adulthood, I reckon it's too late now.......


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> I guess some people have never learned the difference between disciplining a child, self defense and criminal assault. There IS a difference, but if you haven't learned it by the time you reach adulthood, I reckon it's too late now.......


OK. Give me an example of the acceptable disciplining of an adult with a board. How would George Zimmerman react to being disciplined with a board?


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> OK. Give me an example of the acceptable disciplining of an adult with a board.



As I said, not knowing the difference can lead to confusion......

I know of no circumstance where I would "discipline" an adult, that is done in childhood. I can count on one hand the times I was hit with a belt or a switch and can tell you exactly why. Lesson learned.

However, upon reaching adulthood, the only thing left is self defense or protection. If an adult hasn't learned self discipline by that time, then an old fashioned beat down, is what it is called.
Another poster gave a good example, so I'll use theirs instead.....




Yvonne's hubby said:


> That depends entirely upon what behavior you were disciplining the teacher for..... "Your honor the teacher was in the middle of sexually abusing my son when I walked in.... I felt the overwhelming desire to administer a bit of discipline. The 2x4 was leaning against the wall and it seemed like the right thing to do at the time."


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> I know of no circumstance where I would "discipline" an adult, that is done in childhood.


So by definition striking an adult with a board is battery, punishable with prison time, but striking a child with a board is acceptable. You see the problem with that, don't you?


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

No, many grasp the rational,logic,and act of a swat. You don't it might be that the window of understanding may have past for you.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> So by definition striking an adult with a board is battery, punishable with prison time, but striking a child with a board is acceptable. You see the problem with that, don't you?



Nope.

In the example above, no charges would be filed at all, provided you stopped the battery after rendering the assailant incapacitated.
Check your state statutes if you doubt my word, I know *I* did.:grin:

I thought back to one of your first posts, about disciplining an employee, and realized you were either being facetious or truly have no understanding of corporal punishment for children and _why_ it might be needed, administered sparingly of course.

And adult has reasoning powers developed post adolescence in the brain, in the frontal lobe. Therefore, to "discipline" your employee, you can reprimand, suspend, fire, require training courses, etc. and hopefully the reasonable adult will respond positively.
That's the theory in practice, anyways.

An undeveloped child's brain won't always respond to reason. Their synapses aren't making the connection yet. I can provide links in human brain studies if necessary, or you can go googling yourself. It is something already known and the field of brain chemistry and science is fascinating, my wife is probably more knowledgeable about it than I am, as she is doing coursework on it now in the field of pain medicine and addiction.

Now, if this digression was your response in opposition to the OP, I can agree that corporal punishment is probably useless in an adult, although emotionally and socially undeveloped people ARE likely a majority of the incarcerated. I doubt that it would be any more effective than imprisonment in most cases, so if that was your point, I accept the validity.

That still leaves the area of childhood in a completely different arena.


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

While much of the talk on this thread has been about corporal punishment for children, something even the Supreme Court finds acceptable, the more interesting question to me is the one posited about using it on adults. If we bring it back and the government can legally paddle someone in the town square why shouldn't the boss have the same privilege. First time your late for work, verbal warning. Second time, written warning. Third time, bend over.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Why would a public flogging discourage further criminal activity? It is a very short term response with no real consequences in the long term. I won't even go into the fact that Americans now think this kind of punishment in other countries is barbaric.


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> While much of the talk on this thread has been about corporal punishment for children, something even the Supreme Court finds acceptable, the more interesting question to me is the one posited about using it on adults. If we bring it back and the government can legally paddle someone in the town square why shouldn't the boss have the same privilege. First time your late for work, verbal warning. Second time, written warning. Third time, bend over.




To answer your question, "Why not?", all I can say is, because there are full grown men like me that'll snatch that paddle outta their hands and make them wish they'd never been born.ound:

But the point is taken and agreed.
By the time you're an adult, discipline is different and whether it is accepted determines the next set of consequences.......unemployment, incarceration, death, etc.


----------



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> To answer your question, "Why not?", all I can say is, because there are full grown men like me that'll snatch that paddle outta their hands and make them wish they'd never been born.ound:
> 
> But the point is taken and agreed.
> By the time you're an adult, discipline is different and whether it is accepted determines the next set of consequences.......unemployment, incarceration, death, etc.[/QUOTE
> ...


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

I dunno, I think I answered it pretty directly.
That kind of discipline only works in pre-adolescence, and I explained the reason for that as well.
As for me, I don't need any job bad enough to let someone lay their hands on me, I'm full grown.
If you mess with a bull, you'll probably get the horns.......:cowboy:


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I think that caning the bottom of a car thief does him a better service then locking him in prison. But one thing I noticed is that I believe that corporal punishment should be brought back to our schools and used as punishment for certain criminal offenses. Meanwhile our more liberal posters are beating up teachers and their employees. 

Kind of gives you a deeper insight into how they really think.


----------



## RebelDigger (Aug 5, 2010)

Woolieface said:


> I don't think flogging is necessarily Islamic. We're just used to that association in this day and age. It was also a form of punishment used in Old Testament Israel and many other cultures. In my opinion it's more effective And more humane in many ways. In all the prescribed punishments for broken laws in the bible, none of them called for long stretches of confinement. In my opinion it's cruel and unusual to lock people in cages like animals....and it never reforms anyone.


I have never seen someone flogged except for fiction but, recently I started watching "Outlander" and the scene where the male lead character, Jamie, gets flogged was very realistic according to accounts I have read. It was horrendous to watch and I would say it would be far better to be incarcerated than to endure that. Bits of flesh being stripped off, the bones showing through, huge blood loss, it was brutal which is why, I suspect, the Founding Fathers put that thing in the Constituion prohibiting "cruel and unusual punishment".


----------



## Shin (Mar 25, 2014)

Singapore's an example of successful corporal punishment of criminals today.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

RebelDigger said:


> I have never seen someone flogged except for fiction but, recently I started watching "Outlander" and the scene where the male lead character, Jamie, gets flogged was very realistic according to accounts I have read. It was horrendous to watch and I would say it would be far better to be incarcerated than to endure that. Bits of flesh being stripped off, the bones showing through, huge blood loss, it was brutal which is why, I suspect, the Founding Fathers put that thing in the Constituion prohibiting "cruel and unusual punishment".


Caning or whipping a criminal is not the same as some fictional event. If incarceration is better, you've never been there. "I won't go back to prison" and "I won't be taken alive" are not fictional claims. They happen for real.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

RebelDigger said:


> I have never seen someone flogged except for fiction but, recently I started watching "Outlander" and the scene where the male lead character, Jamie, gets flogged was very realistic according to accounts I have read. It was horrendous to watch and I would say it would be far better to be incarcerated than to endure that. Bits of flesh being stripped off, the bones showing through, huge blood loss, it was brutal which is why, I suspect, the Founding Fathers put that thing in the Constituion prohibiting "cruel and unusual punishment".


And yet the founders used flogging for punishment, apparently they didnt find flogging to be all that cruel or unusual.


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> And yet the founders used flogging for punishment, apparently they didnt find flogging to be all that cruel or unusual.



Beats getting repeatedly raped in the shower.


----------



## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

RebelDigger said:


> I have never seen someone flogged except for fiction but, recently I started watching "Outlander" and the scene where the male lead character, Jamie, gets flogged was very realistic according to accounts I have read. It was horrendous to watch and I would say it would be far better to be incarcerated than to endure that. Bits of flesh being stripped off, the bones showing through, huge blood loss, it was brutal which is why, I suspect, the Founding Fathers put that thing in the Constituion prohibiting "cruel and unusual punishment".


Flogging does not have to do that kind of damage and I think we can limit it to something that does not leave maiming wounds....but I have to say that I'd take a flogging over a prison sentence even if I had scars the rest of my life.


----------

