# Pneumonia â The Old Man's Friend



## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

I ran across an interesting account at www.civilwarprofiles.com that went against what I have always believed. I assumed death by pnuemonia would be much like drowning, and not a very peaceful way to go. Not true, according to what I have found here...

http://www.civilwarprofiles.com/stonewall-jackson-and-the-old-mans-friend/

_Stonewall Jackson and the &#8220;Old Man&#8217;s Friend&#8221;

In the 1800s, before the advent of antibiotics, pneumonia was often a deadly disease. Dr. William Osler, one of the founders of the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, wrote in the 1898 edition of his textbook-The-Principles and Practice of Medicine-that pneumonia was &#8220;the most fatal of all acute diseases.&#8221; Nonetheless, at the time,-pneumonia was regarded as one of the most peaceful ways to die. So much in fact that Osler&#8217;s description of the process led to the disease being commonly referred to as &#8220;the old man&#8217;s friend.&#8221; _


And here: http://www.jwatch.org/jw201304160000001/2013/04/16/another-look-old-friend-pneumonia

_&#8220;Before antibiotics, pneumonia was called &#8220;the old man's friend&#8221; for carrying the old and infirm to a swift and relatively painless death.&#8221; _- Abigail Zuger, MD 


And even here, in a dictionary: 

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/the+old+man's+friend

_the old man's friend
A popular term for pneumonia in elderly patients with strokes or other debilitating illness, which allows them the dignity of a quiet death, often while asleep._



Forgive me, please, if this sounds morbid but can anyone here&#8212;laypersons or medical professionals&#8212;tell me if this is really true or not? I have had pneumonia a couple of times, and it was not pretty and certainly _not_ peaceful!



.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

My friend is an ARNP and that is how she refers to pneumonia. The elderly in their weakened states do not fight and struggle against it like we younger people, so they don't have the pain. Because of their lack of physical activity it comes on quickly. They quietly succumb.


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## Ramblin Wreck (Jun 10, 2005)

Stonewall Jackson and Robert E Lee both succumbed to pneumonia after suffering other debilitating injuries or illness. On their death beds they both called out the name of the same person: Confederate General A.P. Hill. What are the odds of that?


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Well, I'm 82 and I've had pneumonia a couple of times--no friend of mine I'll tell you. I think if you are already insensible that may be true, but not if you are conscious. Thank God for modern antibiotics.

Strange; what was once deadly we now have a vaccine for. Our doctor told me that there are many types of pneumonia, about a dozen of which have up to a 25% fatality rate. The vaccine guards against these and is now almost a "lifetime protection" shot not requiring boosters.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2014)

I'm a retired Nurse Practitioner..

Oxygen wasn't available to the masses in the 1860's..although people were experimenting with it, and other compressed gasses, supplemental O2 wasn't even in hospitals until the 1920's..

As the lungs become compromised by a build-up of fluid/infectious matter, they of course lose the capability to deliver sufficient levels of O2 to the body..as O2 levels decrease, alertness/awareness decreases..Prior to the advent of supplemental O2 and antibiotics, people who were at the greatest risk of serious illness ( the elderly and infants) often died from pneumonia as a complication from other illnesses..( influenza, measles, etc.)

So people with serious pneumonia laid in bed half unconscious due to lack of oxygen until they were totally unconscious, and died...hence, a "good" death..


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

Oxankle said:


> ... Our doctor told me that there are many types of pneumonia, about a dozen of which have up to a 25% fatality rate. The vaccine guards against these and is now almost a "lifetime protection" shot not requiring boosters.


Oxankle, thanks for this reminder! (Note to self: stop procrastinating and get the vaccine.)

Thank you Laura and Lesley for the insights. I crawled around the net for a good while looking for satisfactory answers before coming here with this question. What you said makes perfect sense!

Ramblin', that was quite an interesting factoid you brought up about Stonewall Jackson and Robert E Lee... Those were incredible days, indeed. And, when you think about it, all of it happened practically "yesterday" in the timeline of history. *Chill-bumps*

I knew I would get some intelligent rapport here! 


.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Got to totally disagree about those dangerous vaccines . . . . .
Only ones to benefit--$$$-- from a vaccine are the criminal makers . .Big Pharma. $$$$

Good diet is what is needed . . . . . . . . . . .


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

I can't speak for everyone but I thoroughly agree with the vaccines. Every year I get a flu shot and this year we added the pneumonia one. I'm no kid and I do have other health issues. I have a healthy fear of the flu, pneumonia and bronchitis!


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2014)

The cemeteries are full of people who had great diets and died from polio, measles, influenza, H-flu meningitis, Reye's syndrome after chicken pox, Tetanus, German Measles, Diptheria....but hey..go without if that rows your boat.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

My own opinion is that people who do not vaccinate their children against the common childhood diseases are playing Russian roulette with their kids' lives. The ONLY reason that they get away with it now is that we have vaccinated so many children that some serious diseases (polio, smallpox) are just about eradicated and the general population has "herd immunity" because of the vaccines. 

You guys get your shingles and pneumonia shots.
Ox


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

My objection is mostly against the flu and pneumonia shots .....
I challenge you doubters to do some research as to what is happening to young kids today from getting massive amounts of shots with all the nasty stuff in them.
How do you account for the massive rise in autism today . . ????????
How do you account for the child who was fine the day before getting the shots and the day after he/she is totally struck down . .never to recover . .?????

I don't expect you to believe me . . .So check it out for your self. Mike Adams the Health Ranger is a very good starting point........


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

http://www.passporthealthusa.com/2013/04/cdc-study-debunks-vaccine-autism-link/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...tism-vaccines-mccarthy-view-medicine-science/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/05/vaccine-autism-study-report_n_805036.html

http://theweek.com/article/index/24...-of-the-dubious-theory-and-the-ongoing-debate

I'm satisfied.


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Whether or not you get a vaccine is a personal choice. I've handed out Tamiflu to every member of a family except one--the one who came in for their shot. I've also handed out Tamiflu to every member of a family who got the shot. So yes, it's a crap shoot. 

I personally feel the only vaccines that should be required for children are the biggy killers/maimers--Polio, Small Pox, and the like. You're not just protecting your child in that case, you are protecting yourself and those around you. Flu, Pneumonia--do whatever you want along with deciding if taking your blood pressure and glucose control medications are appropriate for you. Just remember, not everything can be controlled with diet and exercise.



> How do you account for the massive rise in autism today . . ????????


Jim I would like to see a study of autism concentrate on other factors than vaccines. When you and I were young, how many children were diagnosed with autism? There are other factors than vaccines that weren't prolific back then. Women also didn't use the amount of birth control pills that are used now for the lengths of time that they use now. The pharmacy I work at stocks about 32 different formulations of hormone altering medication. Has a study ever been done on how that long term hormone altering affects fetal development?


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2014)

Sigh.. Simple math debunks the belief that vaccines cause autism.. Take the number or infants vaccinated ...billions.. That's billions.. Now how many people have autism??? If a correlation existed, the majority of people would have autism...
Not a single medical research study has shown any link whatsoever.. "Dr Wakefield" is a debunked quack..

Let's look instead to the exposure of infants to processed food loaded with chemicals..God forbid it's not big bad medicine but actually big bad food industry..


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Not only children, but we as parents have been exposed to a multitude of chemicals that have the potential to alter genes. 

It took a while for the world to learn that lead piping was not good for the water supply.

Someday we will learn what it is that produces autism. Vaccines don't seem to be the culprit; if they were there would be a lot more autism. Further, we've been vaccinating since early in the last century and autism is a recent "discovery". I never HEARD of autism until the last 20 or 30 years. 

Lesley mentioned the administration of hormones----birth control pills? I wonder. 

We've learned that some girls are now developing cancer because their mothers had a certain treatment (Lesley--what was that?) before they even became pregnant. Lots yet to learn about autism. Could also be related to the use of mind-altering drugs by the father or mother? 

That old bit about misbehavior affecting even the third and fourth generation comes to mind.


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

Chemical exposure over time, through food, water or direct ingestion as meds or casual drug use... This makes much more sense concerning rising autism rates.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Yup . . I got the kind of response I expected.
Way to many folks that have been flamuxed by the main stream big pharma controlled propaganda ..........
If you trace back words all those links provided by Raevin you will find big pharma money . . .
huffington post . .what a laugh . .

I had never heard or read of this Wakefield person.....period.

The heavy metals like Mercury in vaccines are pretty nasty stuff.......

Natural News.com Mike Adams does testing for heavy metals in his own lab.

If any of you have an open mind you will check out Natural News.

And if you don't . . oh well . . .keep on believing that big pharma loves you more than their profit margin .......

You can led a horse to water but . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

A few years ago UC Davis published their findings of their 10 year study in the neurological disorders of children, mainly autism, but also includes ADHD. It's the chemical food additive exposure. Vaccines have chemicals which overload immature systems which may be sensitive to chemicals.

The wonderful thing is we still have choices in our own health. We're all entitled to our opinions. We are not entitled to force what we believe to be right onto others who do not agree. There are other ways to stimulate our immune systems without injecting chemicals and other non-kosher substances into ourselves and our children.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Jim-mi; the use of mercury in vaccines (as a preservative) stopped some years back.

To be practical, even if vaccines kill a few people, as a matter of governance it is better to vaccinate a whole population against disease and lose a thousandth of one percent than to not vaccinate and lose huge numbers to disease.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Laura said:


> A few years ago UC Davis published their findings of their 10 year study in the neurological disorders of children, mainly autism, but also includes ADHD. It's the chemical food additive exposure. Vaccines have chemicals which overload immature systems which may be sensitive to chemicals.
> 
> The wonderful thing is we still have choices in our own health. We're all entitled to our opinions. We are not entitled to force what we believe to be right onto others who do not agree. There are other ways to stimulate our immune systems without injecting chemicals and other non-kosher substances into ourselves and our children.


Do you have a source for this study? Because I've seen this one: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/autism-rise-driven-by-environment/
But it's certainly not saying what you're saying it says.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

But the sad side is those people, very often nurses, who have been awakened to the uber hazards of "today's" vaccine's, who are losing their jobs because some idiots are "mandating" the taking of flu shots.
Take it or you are fired........
Or some idiot saying there is a "law" that kids have to have that long laundry list of shots to go to school . . . .
It is a illegal "mandate" --not a law.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

I do not understand why pro vaccine people feel the need to convince others their opinion is the only RIGHT opinion? Be secure it is the right choice for YOU, accept it is not the right choice for others.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Sorry Ox, but that is not what I have been reading. . . . .


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

If people choose not to vaccinate in whatever numbers is their right. It does make it all the more imperative for the rest of us to protect ourselves and families from their kids. They will be the ones who contract and spread these diseases. They can and do start such outbreaks more and more frequently.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Laura , You are oh so correct............


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

I wouldn't even try to convince true believers, much less force things on them. I merely am grateful the vaccines are there to protect me. BTW, do you or don't you all give rabies vaccine to your pets? Do you rely on any to keep your stock disease free? Chicks from hatcheries are routinely vaxed for Marek's Disease...


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Mercury is no longer used in vaccines, but little ones still have Autism. So it isn't the mercury in the vaccines.

It might be a cumulative effect of chemicals in the air, food, water, and the vaccines might add to this.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

We won't spread it to you if you're vaccinated, right? What's the threat?

First baby had seizures after vaccines. Second baby died after vaccines. I really don't wanna hear how the benefits of mass vaccination outweighs the risks to a few. The other kids are not vaccinated.

The threat to us is those vaccinated shedding live virus and not practicing proper hygiene.


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

You're right, you win, we're wrong, whatever. Just please home school or keep sick kids home until healthy again...


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

I'm not trying to convert. But don't stand and condemn me if I choose to avail myself of vaccines. Agree to disagree.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I think children should be protected from the ignorance of their parents, no matter how well meaning, and vaccines for the major childhood illnesses be mandated unless the child has an actual, for real, underlying medical condition which make vaccinating prohibitive. 
We don't own our children and we shouldn't get to make life/death decisions based on ignorance and misinformation about their health. 
Nor should we be able to endanger the rest of society because of our ignorance. 

Along the same lines of parents not owning their kids, I also don't believe that parents should be able to forego insulin in diabetic children and pray over their dying children instead. Same with withholding antibiotics, etc. Do what you like with consenting adults, but children shouldn't pay for the whims of their parents when its been proven irrefutably, that vaccines, antibiotics and insulin work.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

When I am King I will appoint Lisa in N. Idaho Secy of Health, Ed. and Welfare. She will have them Healthy, Educated and Working in no time at all.
Ox, Rex


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Thank goodness you will never be king..........

"we don't own our children" . . . . . . . .WOW what a leftist liberal line..............


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jim-mi said:


> Thank goodness you will never be king..........
> 
> "we don't own our children" . . . . . . . .WOW what a leftist liberal line..............


Children are not chattel to be owned like pets and livestock.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Jim-mi said:


> Thank goodness you will never be king..........
> 
> "we don't own our children" . . . . . . . .WOW what a leftist liberal line..............


Sounds more like common sense and the law to me. You actually think you can own another human being?


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Hey, while we have a good dividing line started, let's discuss Common Core. And, yes, Jim-mi, I am running for King as soon as I can find campaign cash. 
Ox, STB Rex

PS: If you think you "own" a child, try selling one. They are gifts that you only get to keep for a little while, which is just as well since when they are about sixteen or so you wish you could be rid of them for five or six years. Then, if all works well they get their own little "gifts" which you get to spoil. You also get to giggle when THEIR children reach sixteen or so.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

Has anyone taken a look at how the diagnosis of Autism has changed over time? Any suggestion that there are more kids diagnosed as Autistic because the definition has become MORE inclusive?

Mon


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Mon; all reports indicate that autism is being more widely reported, but even so, how many of us older people have seen any child (in our youth) who would be called autistic today? I knew a couple of "slow" kids, but none who could be called autistic today. 

On the other hand, I saw bunches of polio; every summer we read of the new cases in our local paper and in the paper from our "big city", which was Houston, Tx. My football coach had a withered arm; he kept the hand tucked into his waistband. What happened to all that? Anybody here ever see an iron lung? Gee Whiz; the vaccines made them disappear!!!!

I suspect that autism is a modern phenomenon.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Oxankle said:


> Mon; all reports indicate that autism is being more widely reported, but even so, how many of us older people have seen any child (in our youth) who would be called autistic today? I knew a couple of "slow" kids, but none who could be called autistic today.
> 
> On the other hand, I saw bunches of polio; every summer we read of the new cases in our local paper and in the paper from our "big city", which was Houston, Tx. My football coach had a withered arm; he kept the hand tucked into his waistband. What happened to all that? Anybody here ever see an iron lung? Gee Whiz; the vaccines made them disappear!!!!
> 
> I suspect that autism is a modern phenomenon.


When I look back, I realize that I knew people who were autistic.

As for polio, I'm a relic. Young doctors like to read my medical history and charts. I guess it is similar to going to a museum! :spinsmiley:


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

Oxankle said:


> ....
> I suspect that autism is a modern phenomenon.


Not saying it is always the case, but I'm wondering if the increased incidence could be tied into the social welfare programs?

My MIL was 28 when she developed polio, mostly children got it. She spent six months in an iron lung and after intense physical therapy, was able to walk and function again. Things were fine for several years but when she hit her late 50's, developed "post-polio syndrome", as did many of the children and adults who'd "fought polio and won" decades earlier. She spent the last 7 years of her life in a wheelchair.

Mon


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

Oxankle said:


> Not only children, but we as parents have been exposed to a multitude of chemicals that have the potential to alter genes.
> 
> It took a while for the world to learn that lead piping was not good for the water supply.
> 
> ...


DES..Diethylstilbesterol..a synthetic form of estrogen..

Autism 50 years ago was diagnosed ONLY in infants and children who did not interact with the world around them....No eye contact, no verbalization, self-stimulation via head banging, rocking, spinning, etc. 

As the years went by, the Psychiatric diagnosis of Autism was expanded tremendously ...no longer confined to people who needed 100% direct care 24/7, it now includes children who attend school, participate in sports, and in many ways, function at a level so high that a stranger wouldn't notice anything different about them. 

I have a nephew who is Autistic. He is 12 years old. He does not converse with people, he will repeat words over and over and over..he does not recognize his mother, or my brother. He sits and rocks all of his waking hours, smiling and laughing. He was diagnosed while an infant..he never has made any eye contact with anyone. THIS is what the diagnosis used to mean.

MANY of these modern psych diagnoses which label behaviors didn't exist prior to the late 1970's, early 1980's. 
People my age usually cannot recall any classmates who couldn't sit still, or interrupted the teacher, or didn't do their homework..an entire class of over 30-40 elementary aged children sat quietly the whole school day..if you didn't, you'd get several good whacks from the teacher, and then your parents.

Lastly, we did not grow up eating hundreds of food additives..IMHO, eventually, some bright light will discover the cause of "modern" autism..I hope that it is sooner rather than later.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

Perfectly said, Lesley. 

I am sorry about your nephew. That must be heartbreaking on so many levels. All best to you, your brother and his family.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

I am profoundly grateful to live in a country where the majority of the "herd" are protected from serious diseases that knocked down hundreds of thousands of people with tragic regularity in the past... 

Historical accounts are heartbreaking. Those who have never experienced them, or close their minds to such things usually don't realize what the world was like in pre-immunization days. 


.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

CajunSunshine said:


> ...
> Historical accounts are heartbreaking. Those who have never experienced them, or close their minds to such things usually don't realize what the world was like in pre-immunization days. .


I have a family in England and between 1850 and 1900 they had 22 children. Of those 22, only 11 lived to be "adults". Three of the children died , at different imes, in one year. Of those 11 adult children, one disappeared in NYC and 8 died before age 55 (in the US, England, and Australia).

Life wasn't easy then...or long.

Mon


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Mon; you don't have to go far back. In the winter of 1934 my parents had three little boys. When Spring came I was the only one left.
Ox


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## woodenfires (Dec 2, 2003)

I tend to agree with boston lesley that sugar is the cause of autism. Last year I studied the issue, I too had thought vacines were the cause of autism. A guest speaker with autism came and talked to our class about the issue, the stats were unbelievable high, I believe that not very long ago autism rates were about one in ten thousand, now it stands at one in fifty. So, something huge is happening, but, is it vaccines? I still am not positive it has no effect but sugar is way more deadly, since 92 sugar consumption has risen to 31.5 % in our diets. 
The classic book "pure white and deadly", had the answers back in 1972 but it was covered up by coca cola and others and ruined the career of a brillant man and we live with the results today. Alzheimers and a host of diesases are caused by our sugar consumption, read the book, its available on-line for free, also watch a video by a dr Lustig I believe, he talks about how every word of "pure white and deadly" is true, made a believer of me and I cut out all sugars. Dr Lustig makes the bold statement that sugar is pure poison and shouild be put with all poisons. No one has called him on it, they don't want the discussion so they pretend they didn't hear. His video has over 4 million hits, someone is listening.
However, I don't like the ingredients of the flu shot, some has insect repellant and mercury, formaldehyde, aluminum, all very small amounts but maybe enough to harm, I choose not to get the shot and if I had kids they would not get it either. To me a responsible parent decides such decisions after reading everything that's out there on the issue then deciding.I would never believe a drug company, they have too much at stake to be honest and so I discount their story every time. I also never believe a corporation, same reason, our history is filled with lies told to us by such entities and all for their own bottom line. We all suffer when we believe one side or the other without really finding out for ourselves. We don't own our children, then we have no right to fill them full of toxins, but we do in the forms of sugars and other poisons and think nothing of it. How about cutting pure crap from kids diets, the crap that causes diabetes, cancer, and a long list of suffering we inflict on kids, those things today are more deadly than the flu, in fact some are at epidemic proportions. jim


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

woodenfires said:


> I don't like the ingredients of the flu shot, some has insect repellant and mercury, formaldehyde, aluminum, all very small amounts but maybe enough to harm, I choose not to get the shot and if I had kids they would not get it either. To me a responsible parent decides such decisions after reading everything that's out there on the issue then deciding.I would never believe a drug company, they have too much at stake to be honest and so I discount their story every time. I also never believe a corporation, same reason, our history is filled with lies told to us by such entities and all for their own bottom line. We all suffer when we believe one side or the other without really finding out for ourselves. We don't own our children, then we have no right to fill them full of toxins, but we do in the forms of sugars and other poisons and think nothing of it. How about cutting pure crap from kids diets, the crap that causes diabetes, cancer, and a long list of suffering we inflict on kids, those things today are more deadly than the flu, in fact some are at epidemic proportions. jim


http://www.doublexscience.org/setting-record-straight-debunking-25-myths-flu-vaccine/


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

More myth busting regarding vaccines. http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/toxic-myths-about-vaccines/


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

If I were better with puters I could / would dig out the startling Facts / lists of young kids who's life's have been fore ever destroyed because the so called Dr. convinced Mama that her child--must have-- all those vaccines. . . .Tragic ....

This info is / has been documented . . . . But of course Big Pharma will do all they can to sweep it under the table......

And those of you who think of me as some kind of nut-case because I dare to speak up . . . . . 


I am very disappointed to see the numbers of people here who are too closed minded to bother to check this out....and all they do is spew out "It is good to inject poison"

So go right ahead and let big pharma pull the wool over your eyes . . . . .
I choose not too........

Ahmen


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

All another conspiracy theory. If you don't understand it, it's a conspiracy. A tale as old as time. 
I always wonder: where do these people begin and stop believing in science. Do some actually believe the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jim-mi said:


> If I were better with puters I could / would dig out the startling Facts / lists of young kids who's life's have been fore ever destroyed because the so called Dr. convinced Mama that her child--must have-- all those vaccines. . . .Tragic ....
> 
> This info is / has been documented . . . . But of course Big Pharma will do all they can to sweep it under the table......
> 
> ...


Your "Google Research" vs. Peer Reviewed Studies.... hmmm who to believe?


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

Disagreeing with someone does not mean I consider them a "nut case". My informed decision, after carefully looking at all the facts, does not make me one of the "sheeple". I don't allow either the powers that be OR the "prophets crying in the wilderness" to pull wool over my eyes. If that causes disappointment on either side, that is not my concern. As I choose not to personally judge others for their views on these matters, I would ask the same of them. IF they choose to judge, label or call names, that sits on their character.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

Disclaimer...

I did not say that it is my belief that "sugar" causes autism. I am of the OPINION that since the proliferation of the modern definition of autism post-dates billions of humans receiving vaccines, and that numerous international medical studies have all proven that there is zero correlation between autism and vaccines, that humanity MIGHT be better served by investigating any possible link between modern autism and food additive chemicals, not sugar.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Too much sugar not good, ruin tooth, make fat behind. Princess Michele, Senor Bloomberg say so.


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

Si, us peons must' do what Dona Michele say...


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> If you don't understand it, it's a conspiracy.


Ain't that the truth around here and everywhere!!! Truer words have never been said.

Education is a wonderful thing.


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## Ramblin Wreck (Jun 10, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Do some actually believe the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth?


You keep bursting my bubbles. I really hope Spring hits your area soon and you get off the computer!! Next thing you'll be saying the North won the war. Where do you people get off? :hobbyhors


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Tommyice said:


> I personally feel the only vaccines that should be required for children are the biggy killers/maimers--Polio, Small Pox, and the like. You're not just protecting your child in that case, you are protecting yourself and those around you. Flu, Pneumonia--do whatever you want along with deciding if taking your blood pressure and glucose control medications are appropriate for you. Just remember, not everything can be controlled with diet and exercise.
> 
> Jim I would like to see a study of autism concentrate on other factors than vaccines. When you and I were young, how many children were diagnosed with autism? There are other factors than vaccines that weren't prolific back then. Women also didn't use the amount of birth control pills that are used now for the lengths of time that they use now. The pharmacy I work at stocks about 32 different formulations of hormone altering medication. Has a study ever been done on how that long term hormone altering affects fetal development?


First paragraph: Smallpox vaccination has not been required in this country since the early 1970s, if not before, and the disease was eradicated worldwide in the mid 1970s. Polio's next, and probably measles after that, because they have human vectors only. I do agree with you about the other diseases; I have an issue with mandatory Hep B and chicken pox vaccination for otherwise healthy children, although I've had the Hep B series (I worked in a hospital and got it free) and would get my kids immunized against both diseases if I had them. Gardasil, too.

The whole "should I get a shingles vaccine" thing came up on another board, and EVERYONE on there who had had shingles said, "GET THE SHOT." 

As for autism, the milder cases were often described as retarded, brain damaged, or "socially backwards". Look at how many parents, aunts, uncles, etc. are being diagnosed in the wake of their children, or they're like my neighbor's 55-year-old boyfriend who read about people with Asperger's and got evaluated, and yes, he does have it. I figured that out the first time I met him. In recent years, "mental retardation" has decreased in diagnosis at a rate comparable to the increase in autism diagnosis.

Two years ago, Temple Grandin, the livestock expert who happens to be autistic, spoke in my town and I went. The woman sitting next to me said, "I'm 74 years old, and I can think of several people I grew up with who I now think may have been autistic." I'm a generation behind her, and I told her the same thing. Grandin herself is in her 60s.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Laura said:


> We won't spread it to you if you're vaccinated, right? What's the threat?
> 
> First baby had seizures after vaccines. Second baby died after vaccines. I really don't wanna hear how the benefits of mass vaccination outweighs the risks to a few. The other kids are not vaccinated.
> 
> The threat to us is those vaccinated shedding live virus and not practicing proper hygiene.


There are people who can't be immunized. I understand that. And that's why it's so important for people who can be to get those shots.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

frogmammy said:


> Has anyone taken a look at how the diagnosis of Autism has changed over time? Any suggestion that there are more kids diagnosed as Autistic because the definition has become MORE inclusive?
> 
> Mon


And people are getting their children evaluated instead of trying to punish the child's behaviors out of them, or thinking the child is doing this to embarrass the parents, or any number of other things.

I have a relative who is autistic, and it's becoming more and more apparent that she will never live independently. A generation or two ago, she would probably have been labeled "brain damaged", because she isn't retarded. Honestly, it would probably be better if she was, because then she wouldn't know she was different. It's immediately obvious that she isn't normal, and she's reached an age where they will go out in public, and other kids her age who see her will make fun of her even if they have never seen her before.   :flame:


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Oxankle said:


> Mon; all reports indicate that autism is being more widely reported, but even so, how many of us older people have seen any child (in our youth) who would be called autistic today? I knew a couple of "slow" kids, but none who could be called autistic today.


You don't remember those kids who couldn't make friends no matter what they did, what clubs they joined, who they met, etc.? Maybe you went to a very small school, IDK.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

frogmammy said:


> Not saying it is always the case, but I'm wondering if the increased incidence could be tied into the social welfare programs?
> 
> My MIL was 28 when she developed polio, mostly children got it. She spent six months in an iron lung and after intense physical therapy, was able to walk and function again. Things were fine for several years but when she hit her late 50's, developed "post-polio syndrome", as did many of the children and adults who'd "fought polio and won" decades earlier. She spent the last 7 years of her life in a wheelchair.
> 
> Mon


Post-polio syndrome is a horrible, painful condition that severely compromises quality of life.

As for social welfare programs, I don't see that happening with autism, but bipolar disorder? Definitely. You can't diagnose that in a toddler; the condition really can't be properly diagnosed until the teen years, and often not until adulthood. Your toddler throws tantrums? Of course they do. They're TODDLERS. They can't express themselves and do this in frustration. That's one reason why people with real disabilities (like genuine bipolar disorder) are having so much trouble being taken seriously.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Oxankle said:


> let's discuss Common Core.


I have heard nothing good about it from people anywhere on the political spectrum! Teachers especially loathe it. I post on a liberal board, and it's getting trashed there too.

:lookout:


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

frogmammy said:


> Not saying it is always the case, but I'm wondering if the increased incidence could be tied into the social welfare programs?
> 
> My MIL was 28 when she developed polio, mostly children got it. She spent six months in an iron lung and after intense physical therapy, was able to walk and function again. Things were fine for several years but when she hit her late 50's, developed "post-polio syndrome", as did many of the children and adults who'd "fought polio and won" decades earlier. She spent the last 7 years of her life in a wheelchair.
> 
> Mon


I could write a book on Post Polio Syndrome! It'a darn frustrating! I'm a fighter, but this is one battle I won't win!


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

thesedays said:


> You don't remember those kids who couldn't make friends no matter what they did, what clubs they joined, who they met, etc.? Maybe you went to a very small school, IDK.


I went to several elementary schools from Boston to California, and an average sized high school..everyone had someone to hang out with..everyone. Everyone had a friend, or two , or more..everyone. 

Just asked my brother and my husband..same answer as above..other people's mileage may vary..


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

Ramblin Wreck said:


> You keep bursting my bubbles. I really hope Spring hits your area soon and you get off the computer!! Next thing you'll be saying the North won the war. Where do you people get off? :hobbyhors


Shssssssh!! Let 'em keep thinkin' they did!!


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Autism screening can begin soon after birth. Babies who do not make eye contact while nursing is a big friggin' clue something is going on with that child. There are many testing and screening methods for autism that can be used birth to 2 years old to indicate autism. If parents do nothing more than stick their kids in Baby Warehouse for other people to raise with hundreds of other kids, the symptoms of autism won't be obvious until the kid is in school and having problems.

My child with autism did not have vaccines. Hers was obvious from birth, having no eye contact. Food chemicals in my diet resulting in mytochondrial dysfunction in her brain is the cause. As a child I would try to keep her on a clean diet. Her dad would stuff her full of crap, she would be spun out and gone for at least 6 weeks.

Once xh was gone and dd was home again, I put her public school special ed. She was so chemically messed up her IQ tested 60. She has two teams, IEP and health team. We went beyond just stopping the chemicals to chelation, organic super-nutrition providing the building blocks to rewire the damaged areas of her brain, mental and physical exercises to retrain.

She went from the retard room to mainstream honor roll, low functioning autism to high functioning aspergers. I and her support team have fought with the school which is geared to accentuate "disabled" rather than develop the giftedness of these kids. She routinely punks adults with her knowledge and reasoning skills.

The rise in chemical exposure is something I don't think anyone questions, but WHERE and WHAT it is can be shocking to some when it comes time to hunt it down. That pink coating on prenatal vitamins. Read the label on Flintstone vitamins, chemical coloring and aspartame. Sugar? Some foods, that's the only good ingredient it has, if it's cane sugar. Beet sugar is from Round-Up Ready GMO sugar beets. Dang, I did a bunch of cross referencing food chemicals additives to neurotoxins and pharmaceuticals.

I put in the time, the research, the work and we have the results. I help other families and they have results too. People either care what they shove in their pie holes or they don't. They either care about their kids' disability check or they care about their kids' health. The information is available for those who are motivated, who know how to pursue knowledge.

Oh, about any studies, research and all that? Always check to see who's funding it. They don't pay for results that don't profit them.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

All those flowery links touting vaccines, if you trace back far enough, are funded by big pharma paid shills......


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)




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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Well this quickly turned into a General Chat style thread. 

:run:


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

bostonlesley said:


> I went to several elementary schools from Boston to California, and an average sized high school..everyone had someone to hang out with..everyone. Everyone had a friend, or two , or more..everyone.
> 
> Just asked my brother and my husband..same answer as above..other people's mileage may vary..


I too lived all over the country and I remember several kids just off the top of my head who just never fit in and never had friends. Even if you tried to be nice, they were just off and didn't seem to know how to reciprocate. I would bet the more severe cases weren't even allowed in the public schools. I don't remember much mainstreaming of anyone back then.


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## woodenfires (Dec 2, 2003)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> All another conspiracy theory. If you don't understand it, it's a conspiracy. A tale as old as time.
> I always wonder: where do these people begin and stop believing in science. Do some actually believe the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth?



I think the conspiracy theory is that drug companies are there to help us, lots believe in that one. I don't see it as being a difficult subject to understand, there are different ways of seeing things is all, same evidence interpreted in ways that fits belief systems.I eat little from a store so I am less likely to want to put something I see as toxic into my body, perhaps they can up with an organic variety of flu shot? Organic ain't what it use to be anyways. Of course some drugs can help, not all of anything is all good or bad. I read what you posted in the link, the ingredients I mentioned are not in the current flu shot I agree, however they have been in the past for other strains. I don't do the you show me your link and i'll show you mine thing. 
The problem for a lot of people is that we know drug companies have a shady side, (I'm really being nice here) where money is their bottom line, we hear how they fight to keep a drug marketable when evidence says its hurting people. My mom has been on at least 4 drugs that were proven unsafe and recalled, they fought against the recall even when they had prior information there was harm being done to people. Its very hard to trust and with the nano technology we have no clue whats possible and I believe its a sensible thing to question something they want all citizens to have. Its just a guessing game as to what strain of flu will come around, if a different strain comes it was all for nothing. I believe Eating well and living consciously is a better prevention. I may be proven wrong as that is clearly within my theory that all possibilities are possible. 

My apologies bostonlesley, I misread what you said. In the end I believe you will find the culprit is sugar, fructose and sucrose can only be dealt with by the liver, if the liver cannot keep up there is trouble, can produce a toxic chemical and leak out, glucose is another matter of course .


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## foxfiredidit (Apr 15, 2003)

Tommyice said:


> Well this quickly turned into a General Chat style thread.
> 
> :run:


 I know, I came in late and on the wrong page, RWreck's comment about the Civil War threw me off 'cause I thought someone had been dissin' Gen. Lee or something. Took a while to straighten that out. In my short look at it I seen at least one flatlander and it ain't me,...I don't think, although the hills around here ain't that tall.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Well Jim-mi, thanks for spoiling what started out to be a very interesting thread. I love when people just show up when they see their favorite buzz words.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

Just because it's a mixed bag of fruit, it does not mean any of it is spoiled. Like some threads tend to do, it took an unexpected turn and meandered into passionate areas. :duel:

As always, some opinions seem to be like concrete (mixed up and thoroughly set). All of it was interesting, and many good points were brought up. 


.


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

Shy, I was hoping to get your input about the original question in this thread, too. Is it too late?


.


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## WhyNot (Jun 21, 2011)

All I know about pneumonia is my uncle gets it about once or three times a year. Currently he has been in the hospital since Thursday, they moved him yesterday to the oncology ward since he is breathing better so his cancer doctor can keep a closer eye on him.

My uncle has bone and blood cancer and a host of other issues since he showed up from being deployed in Vietnam. Including behavioral. From what I understand by all of his evaluations over the years about 98% of it all is attributed to defoliant chemicals and whatever other exposure.

The chemicals we are exposed to daily have to have an impact on something and I tend to not throw it out when it comes to SOME issues with behavior and mental functioning. Depends on the person, their life, their genetics and everything else though I would imagine.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

And it is a shame that so many here have fallen for the lamestream media BS.
Opening ones mind is a good thing . . . . .


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Shygal said:


> Well Jim-mi, thanks for spoiling what started out to be a very interesting thread. I love when people just show up when they see their favorite buzz words.


I'm seriously thinking that my Ignore List needs some company! :clap:


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Jim-mi; It is indisputable that exposure to chemicals can cause all sorts of health problems. Children have died from swimming in irrigation canals where spray tanks have been rinsed. Men have contracted cancer caused by exposure to industrial chemicals. 

NOT the same as vaccination. Those of you who refuse vaccinations will be safe only so long as the rest of us vaccinate. There are no guarantees in life. Some children will die undergoing routine tonsillectomies, some will die learning to drive. 

Some will be hit by lightning--about that same number will die because they were allergic to something in a vaccine. If two children in one family are allergic to a vaccine one would suspect a genetic connection and never vaccinate another child of that family. 
Ox


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> All another conspiracy theory. If you don't understand it, it's a conspiracy. A tale as old as time.
> I always wonder: where do these people begin and stop believing in science. Do some actually believe the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth?


This includes you too, Lisa. You choose to believe ONLY the information you agree with, most of it old, outdated. I bet you haven't put in the time or effort to keep up with the data coming from top universities and scientists around the world. Yet you believe your opinion should be legislated. That is a problem 

By the way, it's People with Autism, not Autistics. Autism is a spectrum disorder.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2014)

The latest professional international research is in 100% agreement concerning the overall safety of vaccines...
Should anyone care to look over a true comprehensive scientific report, 2013, here is the link...

If you do not wish to read the entire contents, perhaps chapter 5 may pique your interest.

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=13563&page=1


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Laura said:


> This includes you too, Lisa. You choose to believe ONLY the information you agree with, most of it old, outdated. I bet you haven't put in the time or effort to keep up with the data coming from top universities and scientists around the world. Yet you believe your opinion should be legislated. That is a problem
> 
> By the way, it's People with Autism, not Autistics. Autism is a spectrum disorder.


You would lose that bet. But it's quite clear that you haven't kept up with any data, just conspiracy theories. I don't believe my OPINION should be legislated, but the best thing for children and society at large as dictated by scientific fact.
And I don't believe I've even used the word, "Autistics".


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Laura; the laws that demand that children be vaccinated for certain childhood diseases before they can enter school are passed because health departments ask for those laws. Their information comes from numerous sources, perhaps the best known being the Center Disease Control. These people are NOT paid by the pharmaceutical companies--they work for us, and the vaccines they approve are given to their own children as well as ours.

The same goes for the vaccinations given to our armed services personnel, to the old who get the shingles vaccine, flu shots and the pneumonia inoculations. No one is trying to foist off unneeded services on anyone. 

Further, as parents we vaccinate our children because we believe it eliminates some risks to their health. Most of the country believes as we do. It is unlikely that so many people are dupes of what you call big pharma. 

I think all of us agree that if we had two children who had serious problems with vaccinations we'd not risk a third. We'd also want the doctors to find out why our own were damaged when so many others were not.

Still further, it is beyond dispute that vaccinations work. How many cases of smallpox have you seen lately. Mumps? Rubella? The diseases that once killed, blinded, crippled, deafened children are now pretty much under control. We face new challenges, but we are learning.
Ox


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Back in the 1980s when this happened to my children and 10s of thousands of other children, CDC excluded the dead babies who did not die within a few hours of vaccination from their statistics. Allergies kill quickly. Chemical sensitivities can take a few days to show. Many doctors were stunned.

Many of our mandatory vaccines are not legal to use in other countries because they are not considered safe for their children. Those countries have much safer vaccines which are not available to us.

When the FDA is stacked with former and future CEOs, major shareholders of the pharmaceutical companies, and they have the power of approval, and even mandating their use, whose best interest do they have in mind? Don't confuse hard science with political science.

For the most part, people didn't die from the diseases, they died from untreated symptoms of the disease. It was the high fevers, dehydration and blocked airways that caused deaths. Those respond well to OTC home treatment which wasn't readily known or available way back then. 

Again, if you are vaccinated, why do you perceive the unvaccinated to be such a threat?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Laura said:


> When the FDA is stacked with former and future CEOs, major shareholders of the pharmaceutical companies, and they have the power of approval, and even mandating their use, whose best interest do they have in mind? Don't confuse hard science with political science.


Which ones exactly?
As for your question about why unvaccinated people are a threat, google herd immunity. No vaccine (or anything in life) is 100 percent effective and there are people who can not receive immunizations because of underlying health reasons. Those people are protected by the rest of the population being immunized.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2014)

She has as much a right to her beliefs as anybody else has to theirs.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

zong said:


> She has as much a right to her beliefs as anybody else has to theirs.


Sure she does. She can believe in the Great Unicorn coming down from the nearest rainbow mountain to give all the little children glitter cupcakes and ice cream if she likes. 
But when people's beliefs (which are based on non-science and misinformation) affect defenseless children and vulnerable people and the health of our nation, don't expect everyone else to cater to those beliefs.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2014)

Did you read her posts? Her reality is that her own children had vaccinations and had seriously adverse reactions. If you have children, they are the most important thing in the world, and your own personal experience trumps any studies. Reality is reality. Mine isn't the same as yours, but it's reality to me. From my point of view, Laura's reality is as valid as mine, never mind the snippiness of unicorn nonsense.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

zong said:


> Did you read her posts? Her reality is that her own children had vaccinations and had seriously adverse reactions. If you have children, they are the most important thing in the world, and your own personal experience trumps any studies. Reality is reality. Mine isn't the same as yours, but it's reality to me. From my point of view, Laura's reality is as valid as mine, never mind the snippiness of unicorn nonsense.


Yes I did. Did you read mine? I also said that children with underlying medical issues or allergies should be exempted. Who would think otherwise?

I think Laura has done just fine for herself with the snippiness. No need for you to get your shining armor in a bunch. Come to think of it, you manage to be pretty snippy on your own when you feel like it.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2014)

Why are yiou so afraid of dissenting opinions? 

You're the one who said "She can believe in the Great Unicorn coming down from the nearest rainbow mountain to give all the little children glitter cupcakes and ice cream" If that's not snippiness, I never saw it before. How does your silly comment translate to me being snippy? Unless you somehow believe the unicorn comment is important to the vaccine argument. If it's not, then it's just snippiness, and blaming Laura or me either one for your own snippiness is childish. Accept responsibility for what you say like a grown-up.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

zong said:


> Why are yiou so afraid of dissenting opinions?
> 
> You're the one who said "She can believe in the Great Unicorn coming down from the nearest rainbow mountain to give all the little children glitter cupcakes and ice cream" If that's not snippiness, I never saw it before. How does your silly comment translate to me being snippy? Unless you somehow believe the unicorn comment is important to the vaccine argument. If it's not, then it's just snippiness, and blaming Laura or me either one for your own snippiness is childish. Accept responsibility for what you say like a grown-up.


:icecream: You know exactly what the unicorn comment was in reference to, but if you really are stumped, go back and study it for a while and it will come to you. And google the term "analogy" while you're at it. 

I'm sure I'm not as grown up as you are, but I'm working on it. 
Do all grownups start out their replies with, "YOU'RE the one who said......"? Is the next post going to be, "SHE started it!!!!" "MOM!!!!


Good grief. If you have nothing more of substance to add to the argument, go rattle your chains somewhere else.

Oh dear...I suppose the next grownup thing to say will be that I'm not a regular on Singletree so I should take my ball and go home.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2014)

No, but if you were a "regular" you'd understand that we all accept that the others have the same rights that we do. No matter how old you are(or aren't), you're never too old to learn manners. Even snippy people have their reasons for being snippy. Some people just wear it out. Some sooner than others. Disappointment in life affects different people differently. You should accept that, in this particular subforum.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Lisa, I took your unicorn comment as you had nothing intelligent to say so you attempted to belittle me. Do your own research outside your tiny narrow box. Many doctors don't even support your position and they are way more educated that you or I.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Laura; can you name even a half-dozen doctors of repute who advocate "no vaccinations"? 

At best you will find some who advise caution where allergies are a possibility.
Ox


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2014)

If people don't wish to have their chidren vaccinated because they have been told the PROVEN FACTS about the risks involved, i.e . 1 out of every 1 million infants may develop a serious reaction vs 1 out of every 500 with the disease will develop serious complications, then fine.whatever..and don't blame medicine when your child dies from measles encephalitis..

BUT to make such a decision based upon pseudoscience and garbage internet quack material is to do your child a great disservice.

There are no other countries in the world which have "safer" vaccines than the USA..where did you get the "fact" that there are?

In which countries are vaccines given in the USA illegal due to their being unsafe? And which vaccines? Please share the source of this claim.

Differences of opinions are one thing..distortion of facts is quite another, regardless of the subject matter.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Far more people read these posts than comment on them. I think it important that we not let quack science and rumor go unchallenged here. If even one parent is caused to NOT protect their children from disease by threads like this we have failed in our duty.

Vaccinations do work; the danger from any vaccination is less than the danger of being hit by lightning. People who do not vaccinate because they've learned their children have allergies are sensible, but they should not try to convince the world that all vaccinations are harmful. 

I know that there is a "do not vaccinate" cult out there--these people are getting away with this because the rest of us DO vaccinate. To attempt to convince the world that we should do away with all vaccinations is no more than foolish quackery and anti-social behavior. 

Now if someone has a way to improve vaccinations, do away with even the miniscule danger we face from them today, I am all for it. 
Ox


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2014)

I took my wife to UNC hospital in May, 2010 for a "routine" colonoscopy. She signed a release which stated that there was a ridiculously low chance of any damage whatsoever, and only 1.6 deaths per 10,000 attributed to botched colonoscopies.

However, they perforated her colon, which allowed fecal matter(along with the inevitable e.coli) to enter the peritoneal cavity, which led to peritonitis, which eventually after months of ever changing antibiotics to fight the e. coli, led to C. Diff, and on to death. Not a nice comfortable death, but death by poisoning, 9 months of torment.

So, although "scientific studies" show colonoscopies to be nearly fool-proof, in this household, 100% of the people who got colonoscopies died from it. Facts are facts. Believe who you want to believe, but the release from the hospital looks mighty silly alongside the stack of documents pertaining to her death. 

So, in conclusion, if I were told to get a colonoscopy in order to screen for a possible problem that could possibly kill me, or they could possibly fix, I'd refer to my own survey which says 100% of people here who got colonoscopies died from it. Their study, my study. Both are true(Well, i know mine is, not sure how they get their data). What do you believe, what you read from a source you may or may not trust, or what you see with your own eyes? Everybody has a right to their own opinions, especially if they come to it logically.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Ox . . . No Dr. of repute, who has been awakened to vaccine hazards, is going to be openly vocal about their feelings. (With very few exceptions) To do so they know full well they will be going against the "norm" and will be ostracized by the uninformed. Those Dr.'s just go about their business without pushing vaccines.
There is a few who are informed....

That said if I knew now to put in "links" in the puter I would provide you with some Big Dr. names...


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

We don't FEAR unvaccinated kids. We have great concern for those among the unvaxed number, because they will suffer when an outbreak happens. And some victims will be elderly folks who never had an opportunity for childhood vaccines. Make your choices, live with them, and deal with the outcomes without blaming others. We will do the same.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Zong; Condolences on the loss of your wife; the story is infuriating because that should not happen. We all know that it does happen, just as we get hospital-acquired infections. 

A friend here had his wife in for a minor thing, buttonhole surgery. Sent her home on Thursday. Friday she called and told the nurse she was in intense pain--told to take painkiller. By Monday she was beyond saving--again peritonitis. That should never happen. 

Most men expect to die first; we spend our lives planning so that our wives will be secure when we are gone--sometimes it works the other way.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2014)

Those of you who wish to ignore established medical research will obviously continue to do so, somehow believing that all of us in Medicine and Nursing are liars, keeping the "truth" from the public for our own selfish gains, EXCEPT for those online docs who are so afraid of the established medical profession that they display their MD on a website and happily take the money from people who buy their book or their "herb that cures cancer".

...Personally, I think there's a special place in hell for medical professionals who get rich from playing off the fears of well-intentioned people..

Zong, I am truly sorry that your wife was one of the very , very few people who had a serious complication from a colonoscopy and died as a result. Anyone in medicine who says that any procedure, medication or treatment is 100% risk free is a fool or a liar or both.


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Jim-mi said:


> Ox . . . No Dr. of repute, who has been awakened to vaccine hazards, is going to be openly vocal about their feelings. (With very few exceptions) To do so they know full well they will be going against the "norm" and will be ostracized by the uninformed. Those Dr.'s just go about their business without pushing vaccines.
> There is a few who are informed....
> 
> That said if I knew now to put in "links" in the puter I would provide you with some Big Dr. names...


Jim we all have some good fun in this forum and I sure don't want to change that, but I need to call Horse Hocky on the big name doc claim.

You don't need to link--you can TYPE their names, just like you've typed all these claims. We all can Google their names to get the same information you're claiming.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jim-mi said:


> Ox . . . No Dr. of repute, who has been awakened to vaccine hazards, is going to be openly vocal about their feelings. (With very few exceptions) To do so they know full well they will be going against the "norm" and will be ostracized by the uninformed. Those Dr.'s just go about their business without pushing vaccines.
> There is a few who are informed....
> 
> That said if I knew now to put in "links" in the puter I would provide you with some Big Dr. names...


So they keep the "truth" a secret and only release it to people who are "informed" enough to accept it? You realize that Mercola and that ilk are multimillionaires because of "big pharma" right? And that they have been discredited over and over again. Millions of studies and physicians are wrong, and the few with questionable ethics are correct?  

I'll stick with qualified physicians and peer review studies.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

You seem to ignore the persuasive power of "big pharma" billions . . . .

And I too will stick with the quality physicians who dare to swim up stream against the pharma tyrant....


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Jim-mi said:


> You seem to ignore the persuasive power of "big pharma" billions . . . .
> 
> And I too will stick with the quality physicians who dare to swim up stream against the pharma tyrant....


Sigh. How about antibiotics? Big pharma makes billions off them every year, are they OK? How about cancer drugs? Drugs to treat heart disease and diabetes? Are they OK? Or is it just vaccines that you have a big pharma problem with? The same big pharma companies make vitamins and other "natural" treatments are they OK?


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

arcticow said:


> We don't FEAR unvaccinated kids. We have great concern for those among the unvaxed number, because they will suffer when an outbreak happens. And some victims will be elderly folks who never had an opportunity for childhood vaccines. Make your choices, live with them, and deal with the outcomes without blaming others. We will do the same.


With a couple of exceptions, all vaccines can be given to people of all ages. Just because someone is elderly and never got vaxed as a child, and didn't have that particular disease (that they know of) does not mean they can't get protected now.

Several years ago, there was a pertussis outbreak in my area, and the health department was offering shots for $10 (free if you were on Medicare or Medicaid). A TV station went there and talked to some people, and the ones they showed said things like, "I'm not that concerned about myself, but I have grandchildren/I babysit my neighbor's kids/I work at a convenience store", that kind of thing. This shot includes tetanus, which EVERYONE needs to be protected against. It isn't transmitted person to person, but it's universal in soil bacteria and is horrible if you get it, and you're not immune afterwards.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Oxankle said:


> Zong; Condolences on the loss of your wife; the story is infuriating because that should not happen. We all know that it does happen, just as we get hospital-acquired infections.
> 
> A friend here had his wife in for a minor thing, buttonhole surgery. Sent her home on Thursday. Friday she called and told the nurse she was in intense pain--told to take painkiller. By Monday she was beyond saving--again peritonitis. That should never happen.
> 
> Most men expect to die first; we spend our lives planning so that our wives will be secure when we are gone--sometimes it works the other way.


And nobody ever expects to die in a manner like this.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Sigh. How about antibiotics? Big pharma makes billions off them every year, are they OK? How about cancer drugs? Drugs to treat heart disease and diabetes? Are they OK? Or is it just vaccines that you have a big pharma problem with? The same big pharma companies make vitamins and other "natural" treatments are they OK?


Insulin? Morphine? Drugs for anesthesia? Antihypertensives? Etc. etc. etc.?

Imagine life without those.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Perhaps you need to do some research into the current feeling that the wild over use of antibiotics has / is becoming useless because so many things are now resistant to the antibiotics......?!?!

And yes there are better "natural" ways around cancer than big pharma concoctions of poison's.
And vitamins made by big pharma . . . . .you got to be kidding . .?!?!

With an open mind there is a huge amount of "natural" options........
Big pharma hates this because they can not patent and there fore control ($$$$$$$$) these "natural" options.
And it is documented how big pharma apply's extreme pressure to the FDA to ban the "natural" good stuff.

check it out for your self . . if your open-minded enough.........


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Now I understand completely, you have an amazing ability to cherry pick information out of a post and spin it to your desired outcome, it's truly impressive, but not terribly rational. 

Let me know if you have the same feelings when you or a loved one have a life threatening illness, K?

You should love this article it's all about how big pharma makes vitamins and supplements AND it's from Fox News!: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/0...lements-made-by-big-pharmaceutical-companies/


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Jim-mi said:


> Perhaps you need to do some research into the current feeling that the wild over use of antibiotics has / is becoming useless because so many things are now resistant to the antibiotics......?!?!
> 
> And yes there are better "natural" ways around cancer than big pharma concoctions of poison's.
> And vitamins made by big pharma . . . . .you got to be kidding . .?!?!
> ...


What are your sources for all of these claims?


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2014)

Ahh, Bryn found this great junk shop where they will trade junk. so, i have an old milk box, and the guy has a gallon mason jar with a tote handle....perfect for pickled eggs...I just got back. Anyway, I gave my personal experience as an example of how someone can arrive at a conclusion that is backed by fact which is diametrically opposite of another conclusion that is based on facts. The medical industry invented oxycodone, and prescribed it to enough people so that anybody can go up town and buy all they want for $2 apiece. What's not to like about that?


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

I am growing tired of the inferences that I am closed-minded because I come to a different conclusion than some others. I do not name-call, and would appreciate the same respect.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Jim-mi said:


> Perhaps you need to do some research into the current feeling that the wild over use of antibiotics has / is becoming useless because so many things are now resistant to the antibiotics......?!?!


I'll agree with you about that. And a lot of it is caused by inappropriate use of antibiotics in farm animals. It's OK to give them ABX if they're sick. It's NOT OK to give them subtherapeutic doses of tetracycline to make them grow faster.


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

i have yet to see anyone that talks about how they know "the truth" , ever back it up. 

Jim-mi was asked for the actual names of the big doctors that will prove his point, and dances around actually providing them. ive seen him post links before, except now he doesnt know how.

If you take a viewpoint, back it up


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## CajunSunshine (Apr 24, 2007)

*I can't resist this.... somebody please stop me! 

Too late! Me and my twisted humor... I can't help it...

*


























(Hattip to sandyd, D.Gale, Ross of TBM)



.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Cajun, That's pure genius!!!! I'm sitting here giggling so I can hardly type---You've stumbled upon the answer---No more organic food in my house!!!!


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

r=0.9971 (p<0.0001)

Hmmmm,,,,,sooo,,,Shouldn't r be squared?? or r2 =0.9942,,,,,looks suspicious,,,,,

p should be <0.05,,,,Hmmmmm,,little to precise,,,,,

Are sardines, smoked oysters and Ice Cream organic ???

Do I need vaccinated?????? ***getting nervous now****


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Absolutely not . . . .with sardines oysters and enough ice cream No vaccines needed . . .lol


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

L.A. said:


> r=0.9971 (p<0.0001)
> 
> Hmmmm,,,,,sooo,,,Shouldn't r be squared?? or r2 =0.9942,,,,,looks suspicious,,,,,
> 
> ...


Probly. You been blacklegged or lepto-ed lately? Coggins tested? Tested for Bangs'??


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Maybe not vaccinated. More likely quarantined. 

LOL


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

arcticow said:


> Probly. You been blacklegged or lepto-ed lately? Coggins tested? Tested for Bangs'??


Might be a little late on the bangs,,,,but,,,,I ain't been banged for so long,,,uh,,
Kinda forgot,,,**Off to ve,,,uh,,,Doc!!**



Quarantined,,,?????,,by myself????!!!! :flame:,,,I'll never get bang,,,,Oops,,UhOh,,,

:kiss:


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## WhyNot (Jun 21, 2011)

Well for what it's worth...how I feel about this vaccine business....no arguments for or against either side here...I'm all for thinning the herd, may as well let them do it themselves.


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