# I'm Going Carnivore



## MoonRiver

I have gained about 55 lbs in the last 2+ years. I have been eating the same as before, but no matter how careful I was with my diet, I was seeing about a 2 lb a month increase.

I have been eating a primarily plant-based diet for the last 5 years and for the 1st couple of years I lost weight, but I really had to watch calories. Then suddenly everything changed and instead of losing, I started gaining. I don't think I have had a single month in the last 2 years where I lost weight or at least stayed the same.

Many years ago, I quickly lost 50 lbs when I went low carb. The thing was, I still needed to lose another 50 but the scales quit going down. I would gain 10 lbs and then lose it and then repeat this process over and over again. also had overwhelming cravings. Even after going low carb for several years, the cravings never went away. 

After several years of no net weight loss and learning I now had heart disease (2 stents and aortic valve replaced), I switched to plant-based. That was how I finally lost the last 50 lbs, but now I have regained all the 50 lbs I lost going vegetarian.

I decided to go carnivore. I have been carnivore for 4 days and noticed the pain in my hips went away within 2 days. I have a headache but that is usually the case for the 1st week or 2 when one cut's way down on carbs. I just started using salt again so hopefully, that will help.

I was always hungry on plant-based and it is nice to feel so full after eating meat. I'm eating just 2 meals a day without any hunger problems. I am going to start using my Ninja Foodi to sous vide steaks and see if I can buy cheaper cuts without sacrificing flavor and tenderness.


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## starrynights

MoonRiver said:


> I have gained about 55 lbs in the last 2+ years. I have been eating the same as before, but no matter how careful I was with my diet, I was seeing about a 2 lb a month increase.
> 
> I have been eating a primarily plant-based diet for the last 5 years and for the 1st couple of years I lost weight, but I really had to watch calories. Then suddenly everything changed and instead of losing, I started gaining. I don't think I have had a single month in the last 2 years where I lost weight or at least stayed the same.
> 
> Many years ago, I quickly lost 50 lbs when I went low carb. The thing was, I still needed to lose another 50 but the scales quit going down. I would gain 10 lbs and then lose it and then repeat this process over and over again. also had overwhelming cravings. Even after going low carb for several years, the cravings never went away.
> 
> After several years of no net weight loss and learning I now had heart disease (2 stents and aortic valve replaced), I switched to plant-based. That was how I finally lost the last 50 lbs, but now I have regained all the 50 lbs I lost going vegetarian.
> 
> I decided to go carnivore. I have been carnivore for 4 days and noticed the pain in my hips went away within 2 days. I have a headache but that is usually the case for the 1st week or 2 when one cut's way down on carbs. I just started using salt again so hopefully, that will help.
> 
> I was always hungry on plant-based and it is nice to feel so full after eating meat. I'm eating just 2 meals a day without any hunger problems. I am going to start using my Ninja Foodi to sous vide steaks and see if I can buy cheaper cuts without sacrificing flavor and tenderness.


Is your DR in on this?


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## Danaus29

starrynights said:


> Is your DR in on this?



Have you ever known a doctor that supports a meat based diet? I haven't.


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## MoonRiver

starrynights said:


> Is your DR in on this?


Why? Do you know a doctor that knows anything about nutrition and diet?


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## Kiamichi Kid

Best of luck to you!!!


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## Digitalis

The body needs salt, don't restrict salt unless you have a darn good reason. Salt to taste.


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## altair

Best of luck! Don't forget the importance of exercise, weights, moving, etc.


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## starrynights

MoonRiver said:


> Why? Do you know a doctor that knows anything about nutrition and diet?


I was actually thinking about your other health problems. You wouldn't want your body to get messed up for any reason.


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## altair

Do you/your doctor know if the weight increase is fat or fluid, muscle, something else?


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## MoonRiver

altair said:


> Do you/your doctor know if the weight increase is fat or fluid, muscle, something else?


I will know soon because I should lose at least 10 lbs in 2 weeks. If I don't, then I know it's not diet but something else.


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## painterswife

That 10 pounds will be mostly water because of no carbs


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## doc-

Danaus29 said:


> Have you ever known a doctor that supports a meat based diet? I haven't.


Those of us who think about the science do suppor the meat based diet...Those sheep who just follow the party line without thinking don't.

We can deduce from what MoonRiver has told us is this-- He's able to gain a lot of weight rapidly and has a history of CAD-- More than likely he has Metabolic Syndrome, and I'd be surprised if he's never been dx'd with diabetes.(If not, look harder. I bet you'll find it.)

Multiple studies have shown that a diet lo in carbs vs diets low in fat or meat (cal counts being equal) will cause a greater and faster weight loss, BUT (and we have a really big butt here) after 6-12 months, usually a good amount of the lost weight is re-gained, and no diet seems to be superior in the long run. It's calories that really count.

Now, for the diabetic, carbs are very important and must be minimized. If you don't eat carbs, that only leaves meat. (But you gotta eat some carbs. See below.)

As far as his more or less sudden change in handling calories and putting on weight rapidly, assuming we're not talking about drastic changes in calorie counts or activity levels, is porbably just due to hitting that magic age....Cf- "baldness genes." We men are born with them, but don't see it happening until a certain age. Same with how we handle calories and where & how we store the excess.

Fat in the meal causes leptin to be secreted by the intestines and that goes to the satiety center in the brain and we get the sense "we're full." There are NO fats in veggies (oils are not fats.)...

.I always recommend that all protein (60+ gm/d) should come from animal sources (red, white or otherwise). That will provide ~5-600 cals. ...Then calculate how much carbs to take to provide a total of 10 cal per lb of desired body weight (for ordinary activity-- more if you have a very physical job or exercis an hr+/d)

A lb of fat contains a little over 4000cal, and 1 hr of very hard exercise burns only ~500cal, so if you sweat your buns off with an our of playing hockey each day, it'll take you 8 days to burn off 1 lb of fat-- not efficient,...OTOH, if you exercise that 1 hr a day, you can eat an extra 500 cal and not gain any weight. Big difference.


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## MoonRiver

doc- said:


> Those of us who think about the science do suppor the meat based diet...Those sheep who just follow the party line without thinking don't.
> 
> We can deduce from what MoonRiver has told us is this-- He's able to gain a lot of weight rapidly and has a history of CAD-- More than likely he has Metabolic Syndrome, and I'd be surprised if he's never been dx'd with diabetes.(If not, look harder. I bet you'll find it.)
> 
> Multiple studies have shown that a diet lo in carbs vs diets low in fat or meat (cal counts being equal) will cause a greater and faster weight loss, BUT (and we have a really big butt here) after 6-12 months, usually a good amount of the lost weight is re-gained, and no diet seems to be superior in the long run. It's calories that really count.
> 
> Now, for the diabetic, carbs are very important and must be minimized. If you don't eat carbs, that only leaves meat. (But you gotta eat some carbs. See below.)
> 
> As far as his more or less sudden change in handling calories and putting on weight rapidly, assuming we're not talking about drastic changes in calorie counts or activity levels, is porbably just due to hitting that magic age....Cf- "baldness genes." We men are born with them, but don't see it happening until a certain age. Same with how we handle calories and where & how we store the excess.
> 
> Fat in the meal causes leptin to be secreted by the intestines and that goes to the satiety center in the brain and we get the sense "we're full." There are NO fats in veggies (oils are not fats.)...
> 
> .I always recommend that all protein (60+ gm/d) should come from animal sources (red, white or otherwise). That will provide ~5-600 cals. ...Then calculate how much carbs to take to provide a total of 10 cal per lb of desired body weight (for ordinary activity-- more if you have a very physical job or exercis an hr+/d)
> 
> A lb of fat contains a little over 4000cal, and 1 hr of very hard exercise burns only ~500cal, so if you sweat your buns off with an our of playing hockey each day, it'll take you 8 days to burn off 1 lb of fat-- not efficient,...OTOH, if you exercise that 1 hr a day, you can eat an extra 500 cal and not gain any weight. Big difference.


I believe it's the protein that results in the full feeling, not the fat as many think.

I don't have type 2 diabetes - fbg and A1c are good. I have trouble digesting saturated fat, which may catch up with me before I can get the weight off. I am taking betaine hcl and digestive enzymes to hopefully address the problem. I am also doing 2 meals a day which I think may also help.

There are also other medical reasons I decided to do this. 

 *The Carnivore Diet Experience of 2029 People – A Harvard Study*

Detailed findings of the study are summarized below.

*1. Self-reported changes in health status*

An overwhelming majority of the participants experienced positive outcomes. In particular:

69% improved chronic disease
95% improved overall health
91% improved hunger/food cravings
85% improved mental clarity
66% improved memory
83% improved focus
69% improved sleep
78% improved strength
76% improved endurance
89% improved energy.
*2. Changes in chronic conditions and medication usage*

Again, an overwhelming majority of the participants reported improvements in chronic conditions and reduction in medication usage. In particular:

93% improved or resolved overweight/obesity (mean BMI decreased from 27.2 to 24.3)
93% improved or resolved hypertension
84% improved or resolved cardiovascular issues
98% improved or resolved diabetes and insulin resistance
97% improved or resolved gastrointestinal conditions
89% improved or resolved autoimmune conditions
96% improved or resolved musculoskeletal issues
96% improved or resolved psychiatric symptoms
92% improved or resolved urologic issues
92% improved or resolved dermatologic issues.
In relation to diabetes medications:

90% discontinued or decreased insulin
92% discontinued insulin for type 2 diabetes altogether
100% discontinued other diabetes injectables
84% discontinued oral diabetes medications.


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## painterswife

It is the far that makes you feel full, IMO. You need fat o. The carnivore diet.


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## doc-

MoonRiver said:


> I believe it's the protein that results in the full feeling, not the fat as many think.


Leptin-- Leptin and Leptin Resistance: Everything You Need to Know --It's the fat

I'm a big believer in making animal protein the main part of the diet, but I'm not trying to sell books, so I don't need to give it a fancy name llike "Caveman Diet" or "Carnivoire Diet" or "Adkins Diet."...(Cf- my opinion on Square Foot Gardening.)

Note that the "study" you cited is from a self-selected group of people who like the meat based diet. Of course they all feel like it helped them--If it didn't they were under no obligation to stick with it.... It's like asking EV drivers or Yugo drivers if they like their cars-- the answers are meaningless if not put in perspective with others' opinions.....


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## MoonRiver

doc- said:


> Leptin-- Leptin and Leptin Resistance: Everything You Need to Know --It's the fat
> 
> I'm a big believer in making animal protein the main part of the diet, but I'm not trying to sell books, so I don't need to give it a fancy name llike "Caveman Diet" or "Carnivoire Diet" or "Adkins Diet."...(Cf- my opinion on Square Foot Gardening.)
> 
> Note that the "study" you cited is from a self-selected group of people who like the meat based diet. Of course they all feel like it helped them--If it didn't they were under no obligation to stick with it.... It's like asking EV drivers or Yugo drivers if they like their cars-- the answers are meaningless if not put in perspective with others' opinions.....


The researchers found that people who consumed extra protein at breakfast had lower blood sugar levels and reduced appetite later in the day compared with those consuming less protein. 

*Extra protein at breakfast helps control hunger








Extra protein at breakfast helps control hunger - Harvard Health


People who consumed 28 grams of protein during breakfast had fewer cravings later in the day compared with people who ate 12 grams or less of protein....




www.health.harvard.edu




*


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## ScottOz

doc- said:


> .I always recommend that all protein (60+ gm/d) should come from animal sources (red, white or otherwise). That will provide ~5-600 cals. ...Then calculate how much carbs to take to provide a total of 10 cal per lb of desired body weight (for ordinary activity-- more if you have a very physical job or exercis an hr+/d)


I love this DOC. So if your desired weight is say 180 pounds. Carbs would be 1800 calories 5-600 protein and then I think non starch veggies? Sounds like a well balanced plan.


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## doc-

MoonRiver said:


> The researchers found that people who consumed extra protein at breakfast had lower blood sugar levels and reduced appetite later in the day compared with those consuming less protein.
> 
> *Extra protein at breakfast helps control hunger
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Extra protein at breakfast helps control hunger - Harvard Health
> 
> 
> People who consumed 28 grams of protein during breakfast had fewer cravings later in the day compared with people who ate 12 grams or less of protein....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.health.harvard.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


That sudy coompared the effects of hi carb vs hi protein diets on blood sugar levels... We can guess the results. No surprises.

More sugar--> more insulin--> lower BS--> more hunger



ScottOz said:


> I love this DOC. So if your desired weight is say 180 pounds. Carbs would be 1800 calories 5-600 protein and then I think non starch veggies? Sounds like a well balanced plan.


No-- TOTAL: of 1800 cal--ie- at least 500 from meat/dairy.eggs and 1200 elsewhere....A guy who wants to go down to 180 might not think that;s much to eat--- That's why he's fat....That's also just enough for a pretty sedentary lifestyle.

Also-- everybody is defferent. The 10cal/ 1 lb rule is just a starting point for the puroose of estimation. Your results may vary....I've seen diabetics (they have the "survival genes") that won't lose wieght on more than 5 cal/lb.


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## Terri

It is lovely to be able to eat meat again when it is the time of year when our thoughts turn lightly to the backyard grill!

It is true that our metabolisms are different at age 60 than they were at age 18! Fortunately we are living in a first world country, and there are a variety of foods available to us.

I did notice that you said that saturated fat was hard on your digestion. Well, if memory serves me, pork chops and ham are the lowest in fat of the available store-bought pork. Beef sirloin, 93% hamburger, and arm roast are also lower in fat, as is any type of fish. I realize that some people fuss about the amount of fat that is found in shrimp and some other types of fish, but, even shrimp has less fat than an arm roast, and your body does require some fat anyways.

Lastly, the NON-STARCHY vegetables have few if any calories, and they are packed with vitamins. Non-starchy vegetables will not make you gain weight, and they are both filling and tasty.

I have never tried to eliminate all of the carbs in my diet, and so I will bow out in favor of those posters who know obviously know more about it than I do!


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## altair

doc- said:


> A lb of fat contains a little over 4000cal, and 1 hr of very hard exercise burns only ~500cal, so if you sweat your buns off with an our of playing hockey each day, it'll take you 8 days to burn off 1 lb of fat-- not efficient,...OTOH, if you exercise that 1 hr a day, you can eat an extra 500 cal and not gain any weight. Big difference.


Muscle cells, if you're exercising, also burn more calories even while standing still and doing nothing. Not a lot I'm sure, but every little bit adds up (for better or worse!).


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## Digitalis

You're guaranteed to lose weight if you fast long enough. Greatly improves your insulin response, too.


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## MoonRiver

Terri said:


> It is lovely to be able to eat meat again when it is the time of year when our thoughts turn lightly to the backyard grill!
> 
> It is true that our metabolisms are different at age 60 than they were at age 18! Fortunately we are living in a first world country, and there are a variety of foods available to us.
> 
> I did notice that you said that saturated fat was hard on your digestion. Well, if memory serves me, pork chops and ham are the lowest in fat of the available store-bought pork. Beef sirloin, 93% hamburger, and arm roast are also lower in fat, as is any type of fish. I realize that some people fuss about the amount of fat that is found in shrimp and some other types of fish, but, even shrimp has less fat than an arm roast, and your body does require some fat anyways.
> 
> Lastly, the NON-STARCHY vegetables have few if any calories, and they are packed with vitamins. Non-starchy vegetables will not make you gain weight, and they are both filling and tasty.
> 
> I have never tried to eliminate all of the carbs in my diet, and so I will bow out in favor of those posters who know obviously know more about it than I do!


The carnivore diet is an elimination diet. Lots of people are finding that it is the other foods they have been eating that are causing their health problems. Some people try to reintroduce foods and others decide to stay on an all-meat diet.

People report that the diet gets much easier about 3 weeks in and that they start feeling reeling good after about 5 months. I have been watching videos made by a young woman who was only able to get out of bed for an hour or 2 a day and had to use a wheelchair. After a few months doing all meat, she can now cook her own meals and stay up for about 4 hours. She can walk about a block before needing her wheelchair.

While it is only anecdotal, there are many stories like this of people who have had major health improvement from eliminating all carbs from their diet. My health had been going downhill for the last 6 months and I had to do something radical.

My problem with saturated fat is that not only do I have trouble digesting it, but I also have trouble metabolizing it. I still need to do more research to see if I can find anything that might improve metabolization. I don't get the boost of energy that most people get when they go low carb. Some people on carnivore report that it may take a month or 2 before the body develops all the enzymes it needs for digestion and metabolization. I'm committed to sticking it out for at least 3 months, assuming nothing bad happens healthwise.

The "purest" form of the carnivore diet is the Lion diet. As I understand it, this is restricted to meat from ruminants. I had lamb for the 1st time yesterday and it was delicious but expensive.


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## Danaus29

Digitalis said:


> You're guaranteed to lose weight if you fast long enough. Greatly improves your insulin response, too.


Then you gain all the weight back when you start eating again.


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## MoonRiver

doc- said:


> That sudy coompared the effects of hi carb vs hi protein diets on blood sugar levels... We can guess the results. No surprises.


I have seen other references to protein being better at controlling hunger than fat, but I don't remember where. Lots of people who eat a high carb, low fat diet don't have a problem with hunger. I have always heard if you are hungry on a vegetarian diet it is probably because you are not eating enough protein.


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## Danaus29

I don't do well on a high carb diet. I'm always hungry and get rather irritable. If I have protein for breakfast I can wait several hours before I get really hungry.


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## painterswife

Moonriver. I think you have tried every diet out there and you always have a problem with something in the diet. You need a lifestyle change, not a diet.

If protein reduced your appetite then it would not matter if you had animal or vegetable protein. It is the fat in the carnivore diet that reduces appetite.


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## MoonRiver

painterswife said:


> Moonriver. I think you have tried every diet out there and you always have a problem with something in the diet. You need a lifestyle change, not a diet.
> 
> If protein reduced your appetite then it would not matter if you had animal or vegetable protein. It is the fat in the carnivore diet that reduces appetite.


You don't have a clue.


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## Terri

What causes that feeling of "full" differs from person to person. For me it is a couple of bites of grain. Just a couple will do it, For others it is having a full stomach (which does not work with me), etc. 

Mind, if I eat ONLY a couple of bites of grain I will be hungry again in an hour, which is why tonight I also ate 2 slices of meat and some vegetables, and so obviously a carb-free diet is not for me. But a lot of people thrive on it. 

Moon River, I hope you do well on your carnivore diet.. As the old advertisement went "Eat lamb. 100,000 wolves can't be wrong".


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## MoonRiver

I just watched this video. A woman who has lost a lot of weight on carnivore interviews 3 other women who have also lost a lot of weight and resolved many health problems through a carnivore diet. I think they all met in person at a Texas Meat-Up.


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## MoonRiver

Terri said:


> Moon River, I hope you do well on your carnivore diet.. As the old advertisement went "Eat lamb. 100,000 wolves can't be wrong".


Me too. I have to do something different because what I was doing wasn't working.


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## MoonRiver

I came across some information that I think might be key - protein. For people who have a lot of weight to lose, some have recommended that they do a few days a week eating higher protein and lower fat, giving their body a chance to burn body fat. I have never felt really good eating a lot of fat, so the carnivore diet is still a go, but most days I will eat lean cuts of meat, fish and seafood, and chicken on occasion. With no carbs and lower fat, my body is going to have to burn body fat for energy.


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## painterswife

MoonRiver said:


> I came across some information that I think might be key - protein. For people who have a lot of weight to lose, some have recommended that they do a few days a week eating higher protein and lower fat, giving their body a chance to burn body fat. I have never felt really good eating a lot of fat, so the carnivore diet is still a go, but most days I will eat lean cuts of meat, fish and seafood, and chicken on occasion. With no carbs and lower fat, my body is going to have to burn body fat for energy.


Any calorie restriction diet will achieve that. I thought you wanted a way to curb hunger?


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## MoonRiver

painterswife said:


> Any calorie restriction diet will achieve that. I thought you wanted a way to curb hunger?


Protein curbs hunger. There are other tricks I can use if needed. Eating a large meal first thing in the morning will use the vagus nerve to tell the brain you are full instead of relying on hormones.


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## painterswife

I don't believe you can sustain this long term. I wish you luck but I don't think it will work for you for more than a short period of time.


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## Digitalis

Danaus29 said:


> Then you gain all the weight back when you start eating again.


Fast longer. Fast more. It absolutely works.

"you gain all the weight back" is true of ANY diet if you go back to doing what you did before to get fat.

Fasting controls hunger better than calorie restriction. It also teaches you that hunger comes and goes whether or not you eat anything. It also teaches you that just because you feel like eating doesn't mean you have too.

Everyone wants significant change to be easy. It isn't.


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## MoonRiver

painterswife said:


> I don't believe you can sustain this long term. I wish you luck but I don't think it will work for you for more than a short period of time.


Since we seem to disagree on almost everything, I will have to make it work now just to prove you wrong!


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## MoonRiver

Digitalis said:


> Fast longer. Fast more. It absolutely works.
> 
> "you gain all the weight back" is true of ANY diet if you go back to doing what you did before to get fat.
> 
> Fasting controls hunger better than calorie restriction. It also teaches you that hunger comes and goes whether or not you eat anything. It also teaches you that just because you feel like eating doesn't mean you have too.
> 
> Everyone wants significant change to be easy. It isn't.


Just because something works for you, doesn't mean it will work for me. Try fasting when you are on a vegetarian diet.

Diets often quit working even though a person has continued on the diet. Weight control is a lot more than just calories from food.


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## Kiamichi Kid

Things that I have found to be true for “Me” when eating a diet higher in fats/protein.
My hunger is fully satiated.
I have almost zero cravings.
I eat fewer calories overall.
I maintain normal blood sugar levels and a better A1c.
I’m able to lose excess weight without great physical effort.
I have more energy, endurance, mental clarity etc.
I could go on, but it’s enough to say animal fats and protein are what works best for “Me”.


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## Cabin Fever

I have never dieted. Four years ago I was close to 300 lbs and was taking five prescribed medications (T2 diabetes, high blood pressure, and poor cholesterol panel). So, I thought about a diet. Instead of a diet, I changed my lifestyle to a sustainable whole food, plant-based lifestyle. That was four years ago. I am still living a WFBP lifestyle four years later. I have loss over 80 pounds, and my doc took me off of all my medications (this was all in Year 1). Today, I am still WFPB. It is very sustainable (and enjoyable). I am rarely hungry.


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## doc-

MoonRiver said:


> Just because something works for you, doesn't mean it will work for me. Try fasting when you are on a vegetarian diet.
> 
> Diets often quit working even though a person has continued on the diet. Weight control is a lot more than just calories from food.


Right--When faced with a long period of calorie restriction, we kick into "starvation mode," becoming more effcient at metabolizing our calories....The key biologic signal for that certainly involves insulin.

We've all seeen Wild Kingdom episodes about the rainy & dry seasons in East Africa and the great migrations of the wildebeests, etc...Our ancestors evolved there and we are basically them-->

Wet season-- plenty of game; easy to hunt-- justy throw a rock, it'll hit something in the big herd....E. Africa is very hot, so a man would do better there if not storing a lot of fat...When hunting is good, no need to store fat...Insulin levels are low on a meat diet, and the real physiological role of insulin is to control fat synthesis and degradation in the fat cells. It's role in BS is secondary. Low insulin, you don't make fat, so BS isn't needed in the fat cells; BS goes up.

Dry season-- no game. Our ancestors resorted to eating weeds (carbs). Hi carbs--> hi insulin--> make fat in the storage cells. BS remains low as yo0u use it up making fat.

Proof?...The classic story is the cherubic 5 y/o who suddenly starts losing weight like crazy despite no change in diet. Ma takes him to the doc who finds BS 350. Type I DM. Give him insulin shots and he starts gaining back the fat stores.

Many diabetics who dson't follow their diets may very well take meds that keep the BS down, but they're still fat. (Insulin independent Tyoe II DM) After a few years , over a fairly short period of time, they start to lose weight without really trying. BS starts drifting up on the same meds (meds that work by stimulating the pancreas to secrete more insulin or by making the cells more responsive to insulin).....Their pancreases have finally pooped out and can't make enough insulin anymore. They're now "Insulin-requiring Type II Diabetics.

As I said earlier, no matter what specific diet one follows, the intial large weight loss is followed by a return of weight...The key to long term maintenance of wieght is consistant calorie restriction to the level that works for the individual.


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## painterswife

Kiamichi Kid said:


> Things that I have found to be true for “Me” when eating a diet higher in fats/protein.
> My hunger is fully satiated.
> I have almost zero cravings.
> I eat fewer calories overall.
> I maintain normal blood sugar levels and a better A1c.
> I’m able to lose excess weight without great physical effort.
> I have more energy, endurance, mental clarity etc.
> I could go on, but it’s enough to say animal fats and protein are what works best for “Me”.


That works for me as well, though I combine it with intermittent fasting. I do need the fats though. Soon as I try to lower them I get hungry. The intermittent fasting allows me to indulge in higher carbs when I feel like it.


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## doc-

Cabin Fever said:


> I have never dieted. Four years ago I was close to 300 lbs and was taking five prescribed medications (T2 diabetes, high blood pressure, and poor cholesterol panel). So, I thought about a diet. Instead of a diet, I changed my lifestyle to a sustainable whole food, plant-based lifestyle. That was four years ago. I am still living a WFBP lifestyle four years later. I have loss over 80 pounds, and my doc took me off of all my medications (this was all in Year 1). Today, I am still WFPB. It is very sustainable (and enjoyable). I am rarely hungry.


Good for you. Your example is exceptional. Most diabetics don't do well on a plant based diet becuse palnts are essentially all carbs...But as they say, "The proof is in the (low cal ) pudding."

I always imagine Stan Musial's little league coach yelling at him-- "Stand up straight, Stan. You're never gunna be a good hitter crouching down like that!"...Whatever works.


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## Kiamichi Kid

painterswife said:


> That works for me as well, though I combine it with intermittent fasting. I do need the fats though. Soon as I try to lower them I get hungry. The intermittent fasting allows me to indulge in higher carbs when I feel like it.


I’ve also used IF for several years. Fat is most definitely a key player in satisfying my hunger.


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## Cabin Fever

doc- said:


> Good for you. Your example is exceptional. Most diabetics don't do well on a plant based diet becuse palnts are essentially all carbs...But as they say, "The proof is in the (low cal ) pudding."
> 
> I always imagine Stan Musial's little league coach yelling at him-- "Stand up straight, Stan. You're never gunna be a good hitter crouching down like that!"...Whatever works.


When it comes to plants, "we eat the rainbow" and we eat the whole plant which many times includes a lot of fiber. The more intense the color the more we like it. 

I found it very interesting to find out the role that fat consumption has in exacerbating T2 diabetes. It's not all about the carbs as some people may think.


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## MoonRiver

Cabin Fever said:


> When it comes to plants, "we eat the rainbow" and we eat the whole plant which many times includes a lot of fiber. The more intense the color the more we like it.
> 
> I found it very interesting to find out the role that fat consumption has in exacerbating T2 diabetes. It's not all about the carbs as some people may think.


Wouldn't fat only be a problem when added to carbs? Man usually ate a predominantly plant based diet part of the year and a primarily meat based diet the rest of the year. The problem is we learned how to do both year round.

I'm guessing we should use predominantly 1 type of energy source at a time, either carbs or fat.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Please post a source, Cabin Fever. I googled quickly and couldn’t find anything about fat consumption. I did find many references to visceral fat.

Glad to see you posting here again.


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## Cabin Fever

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Please post a source, Cabin Fever. I googled quickly and couldn’t find anything about fat consumption. I did find many references to visceral fat.
> 
> Glad to see you posting here again.











What Causes Insulin Resistance? | NutritionFacts.org


Prediabetes and type 2 diabetes are caused by a drop in insulin sensitivity blamed on “intramyocellular lipid,” the buildup of fat inside our muscle cells.




nutritionfacts.org













Diabetes as a Disease of Fat Toxicity | NutritionFacts.org


The “twin vicious cycles” explain how the buildup of fat in the cells of our muscles, liver, and pancreas causes type 2 diabetes, which explains why dietary recommendations for diabetics encourage a reduction in fat intake.




nutritionfacts.org
 












Lipotoxicity: How Saturated Fat Raises Blood Sugar | NutritionFacts.org


The reason those eating plant-based diets have less fat buildup in their muscle cells and less insulin resistance may be because saturated fats appear to impair blood sugar control the most.




nutritionfacts.org


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## Cabin Fever

MoonRiver said:


> Wouldn't fat only be a problem when added to carbs? Man usually ate a predominantly plant based diet part of the year and a primarily meat based diet the rest of the year. The problem is we learned how to do both year round.
> 
> I'm guessing we should use predominantly 1 type of energy source at a time, either carbs or fat.


I eat carbs and fats and protein and fiber all in the same day and year-round. IMHO, people need a balance in their consumption, and IMHO, try to consume as many natural vitamins and (phyto)nutrients as possible.


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## painterswife

Protein is protein, vegetable or animal. Your body reacts to it the same way.


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## Cabin Fever

painterswife said:


> Protein is protein, vegetable or animal. Your body reacts to it the same way.


Exactly, but my concern is what comes along for a ride with that protein. Is it saturated fat or fiber?


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## Kiamichi Kid

Eating a diet lower in carbohydrates and higher in animal fats completely eliminated the need for any medication for Type 2 Diabetes in my case .


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## Kiamichi Kid

Cabin Fever said:


> I eat carbs and fats and protein and fiber all in the same day and year-round. IMHO, people need a balance in their consumption, and IMHO, try to consume as many natural vitamins and (phyto)nutrients as possible.


So do I, we just take different approaches to get to the same destination.


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## MoonRiver

Cabin Fever said:


> I eat carbs and fats and protein and fiber all in the same day and year-round. IMHO, people need a balance in their consumption, and IMHO, try to consume as many natural vitamins and (phyto)nutrients as possible.


But you are eating minimal saturated fat. I'm talking about a cycle where people in northern latitudes would fatten up in the fall for winter and then have body fat to supplement less food in winter. Then in spring, they would start eating tubers and greens and minimal fat as animals were very lean after burning their fat over the winter. Something similar happens during rainy and dry seasons.


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## MoonRiver

painterswife said:


> Protein is protein, vegetable or animal. Your body reacts to it the same way.


On average, your body absorbs animal-based protein better than plant-based protein. Soy is once again the exception and is equivalent to animal sources.

The practical implication is that you may need to eat 20-50% more plant proteins to absorb the equivalent amount of amino acids as you would from animal sources.

dietdoctor


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## MoonRiver

From the research I have been doing, what we know about diet doesn't necessarily apply to a carnivore diet. People who have been on it for years are finding that their labs show no or minimal vitamin and mineral deficiencies.


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## MoonRiver

After just 2 days, the pain in my hips was almost gone. I'm on day 7 and I noticed my knees no longer hurt and I have a lot more flexibility in my legs. This morning I was dragging, but about 1 pm my energy level shot up and I did a bunch of small tasks I had been putting off. I also had bad headaches on days 4,5,6 and 7 (today), but this afternoon it went away and now I feel fine. Hopefully, I am done with the keto flu.


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## Danaus29

Digitalis said:


> Fast longer. Fast more. It absolutely works.
> 
> "you gain all the weight back" is true of ANY diet if you go back to doing what you did before to get fat.
> 
> Fasting controls hunger better than calorie restriction. It also teaches you that hunger comes and goes whether or not you eat anything. It also teaches you that just because you feel like eating doesn't mean you have too.
> 
> Everyone wants significant change to be easy. It isn't.


Fasting sucks. Not only is it extremely painful but it makes you stupid, mean and groggy. It also causes heart palpitations.


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## Terri

Danaus29 said:


> Fasting sucks. Not only is it extremely painful but it makes you stupid, mean and groggy. It also causes heart palpitations.


The first three on that list are signs of blood sugar that has gotten too low. Your body is SUPPOSED to prevent your bs from going that low, but middle aged bodies do not necessarily work as efficiently as younger bodies do


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## Danaus29

Even when I was younger, going more than 12 hours without food caused stomach pains that were a bit worse than horrid, unrelenting contractions combined with being kicked in the stomach by a mule. I would get the stomach aches a few hours after eating cereal when I was little. My stomach would growl so much that the other kids in my class at school would hear it.


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## painterswife

Danaus29 said:


> Even when I was younger, going more than 12 hours without food caused stomach pains that were a bit worse than horrid, unrelenting contractions combined with being kicked in the stomach by a mule. I would get the stomach aches a few hours after eating cereal when I was little. My stomach would growl so much that the other kids in my class at school would hear it.


Fasting works best when you burn fat for energy instead of glucose.. It can take some time to train your body to do that when used to operating on blood glucose. Many people start with a fat fast. They lower their blood glucose by eating things like bacon and eggs for a few days before attempting a fast.


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## MoonRiver

I am still experiencing headaches. I'm not sure how to handle salt. At first, I was salting everything to maintain electrolytes, but my heart rate, and I assume my bp, are higher than normal, so I cut way back on salt. I seem to have headaches whether I use salt or not.

Blood glucose has really been strange. A couple of hours after breakfast, bg was 84. A couple of hours after my 2nd meal, it was 130. I retested and was within 1 point. This morning, my fbg was 64. Breakfast was primarily eggs and dairy and meal 2 was chicken thighs. I will continue testing and see if I can find what spikes blood glucose when I am not eating any carbs!


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## painterswife

Do you have diabetes?


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## painterswife

Protein: metabolism and effect on blood glucose levels - PubMed


Insulin is required for carbohydrate, fat, and protein to be metabolized. With respect to carbohydrate from a clinical standpoint, the major determinate of the glycemic response is the total amount of carbohydrate ingested rather than the source of the carbohydrate. This fact is the basic...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





" Protein has a minimal effect on blood glucose levels with adequate insulin. However, with insulin deficiency, gluconeogenesis proceeds rapidly and contributes to an elevated blood glucose level. "

Researching protein and gluconeogenesis might give you some insight.


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## Terri

Hmm.

Since some people have symptoms of low blood sugar when their blood sugar falls below 70, you might consider if you are seeing the somogyi effect


*Somogyi Effect*. The tendency of the body to react to extremely low blood sugar (hypoglycemia) by overcompensating, resulting in high blood sugar.

Like some type 2 diabetics, I have a lot of trouble with this. It is the main reason that I am careful to only lose weight slowly: if I lose too much too fast then I wake up with blood sugars around 170 and that is not healthy.

Actually I can tell when my blood sugar is getting too low, but not while I am ASLEEP!!!! And so I eat a bed time snack


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## MoonRiver

painterswife said:


> Do you have diabetes?


no, not even prediabetic.


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## MoonRiver

Terri said:


> Hmm.
> 
> Since some people have symptoms of low blood sugar when their blood sugar falls below 70, you might consider if you are seeing the somogyi effect
> 
> 
> *Somogyi Effect*. The tendency of the body to react to extremely low blood sugar (hypoglycemia) by overcompensating, resulting in high blood sugar.
> 
> Like some type 2 diabetics, I have a lot of trouble with this. It is the main reason that I am careful to only lose weight slowly: if I lose too much too fast then I wake up with blood sugars around 170 and that is not healthy.
> 
> Actually I can tell when my blood sugar is getting too low, but not while I am ASLEEP!!!! And so I eat a bed time snack


I know the body has the ability to manufacture glucose, so I was thinking that was a possibility. I still need to let my body adjust before I make too many changes.


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## Terri

MoonRiver said:


> I know the body has the ability to manufacture glucose, so I was thinking that was a possibility. I still need to let my body adjust before I make too many changes.


Somogyi is not about making glucose, it is a matter of regulating the level of bs in your body. 

But I am not a doctor and I am purely guessing!


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## Danaus29

@MoonRiver, are you drinking enough water?


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## MoonRiver

Two weeks in today. Lost 10 lbs and I am headache-free today. My energy level is a little better today than early this week. I experience very little hunger, but if I'm not very careful, I can eat too much. I don't get the full sensation until about 15 minutes after eating.

Many people who have tried a carnivore diet have said things get much better after about 3 weeks into the diet, so I am hanging in for at least another week.


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## frogmammy

Maybe you're eating a little too fast.

Mon


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## frogmammy

Terri said:


> .......Actually I can tell when my blood sugar is getting too low, but not while I am ASLEEP!!!! And so I eat a bed time snack


I wake up when asleep when my blood sugar gets too low. Almost always in a cold sweat.

However, if I have more lows, at some point in time, that just won't happen. Thanks for reminding me that a small glass of milk and two crackers can be a GOOD thing!

Mon


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## MoonRiver

I have to do some more testing, but it looks like dairy is what is causing the small spike in my blood glucose. It goes up and comes back down, but it might interfere with weight loss, so I would like to figure it out.


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## kinderfeld

Cabin Fever said:


> Today, I am still WFPB. It is very sustainable (and enjoyable).


A WFPB diet is like sex in that if you aren't enjoying it, you're doing it wrong.



doc- said:


> Good for you. Your example is exceptional. Most diabetics don't do well on a plant based diet becuse palnts are essentially all carbs...But as they say, "The proof is in the (low cal ) pudding."


Not at all. There are numerous stories like his.


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## painterswife

So how did the last week go?


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## MoonRiver

painterswife said:


> So how did the last week go?


Lots of ups and downs. I think today (day 19) is my best day since I started. No headache for several days. Lots of people say it can take 3 weeks or longer to adjust, so hopefully I will start having more energy sometime soon.


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## kinderfeld

MoonRiver said:


> Lots of ups and downs. I think today (day 19) is my best day since I started. No headache for several days. Lots of people say it can take 3 weeks or longer to adjust, so hopefully I will start having more energy sometime soon.


How's this going?


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## painterswife

Did you make it a month?


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## kinderfeld

You still with us?


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## MoonRiver

painterswife said:


> Did you make it a month?


Three weeks and my heart rate and blood pressure were both high from the saturated fat so I decided to stop. Both dropped after just a couple of days of limiting fat.


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