# Educate me about pedigrees



## Ruralnurse (Jun 23, 2011)

This is a question for experienced rabbit breeders. We are thinking of getting some for meat, maybe for kids for 4H or breeding to sell if that were an option. My experience in breeding and showing has been Persian cats (no longer) and have bred dachshunds. My question is in relation to pedigrees. I see things advertised such as pedigreed stock, non-pedigreed stock and half pedigreed stock. In my experience with dogs/cats it is the registration that makes the animal more valuable for a person if they wanted to breed and sell offspring. I assume that is the same with rabbits. 

But pedigrees can be easily faked. I know it happened with dogs and cats (now more DNA testing so is getting better). It was called "paper-hanging". If I purchased two rabbits from someone, one with a pedigree and for more money and one with no pedigree for less, can I just copy the pedigree for the âcheaperâ rabbit? Now I would not do that because rabbits are so cheap and I have paid hundreds for a registered dog so if I want pedigreed rabbits I will certainly pay an extra $10 â $20 for a pedigreed one. But I guess I wonder how often pedigrees are just made up? What is the point of a âhalf-pedigreeâ? I know if I am only going to eat them, pedigrees make no difference. But if I am just starting and I find a rabbit to purchase and it is $20 with no pedigree but $45 with one, should I get the pedigree? 

I could breed my pedigreed buck to my pedigreed doe and my non-pedigreed doe. Why not sell all the babies that I am not going to eat as pedigreed? How often does that stuff happen? I am not trying to figure out a way to cheat people I am trying to understand how it works. I know the value of a registered/pedigreed dog or cat, just trying to see where pedigrees that can be easily written up, can be valuable. 

Can anyone educate me?


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## mysticklobo (Feb 24, 2008)

In rabbits you HAVE to have a full 3 generation pedigree with ear numbers, weights, registration numbers and grand champion numbers to even ATTEMPT to register the rabbit. Then a registrar examines the rabbit and if it has no dqs or major faults, the paperwork is sent in to ARBA. They will double check all the information on the pedigree and if it is correct the animal will be registered, if not the paperwork is sent back to be corrected and you have to try again.

A half pedigreed or non-pedigreed rabbit can occur when you cross different breeds, lose the paperwork on a rabbit, just don't keep records (like in a colony setting, not to knock them), rescue a rabbit that doesn't have one...things like that. We have one EA doe that the doe's breeder REFUSED to give the pedigree for her grandmother to the lady we got her from, so she has a partial pedigree.


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## lastfling (Jun 23, 2011)

You're going to find that there's no real correlation between rabbits and other animals, i.e. dogs and cats as far as pedigrees. What a pedigree signifies in regards to rabbits is the ancestry of that particular rabbit can be traced back 3 to 4 generations. Useful in a breeding program where you want to know the potential genetics involved by a breeding and resultant outcomes. If you have a non-pedigreed rabbit you can breed that rabbit maintaining a record of who to, and so forth, for 3 generations and create your own pedigree. The only time a pedigree is really going to be needed, is if you show the rabbit and anticipate acquiring a grand champion certificate (winning 3 legs). A rabbit has to have a pedigree in addition to be registered by the ARBA (a registrar checks that rabbit conforms to the standard for that breed and tatoos a registration # in the left ear) in order to obtain the certificate. As to dishonesty - Yep I could sit down right now and create a false pedigree and declare I've got a pedigreed rabbit for sale with an inflated price. Most rabbit folk I've encountered are honest people though and not trying to get one over on someone. Not, say there's no bad apples in the crowd. This has been real simplistic, but should give you an idea, and I know there are others who can elaborate further and probably correct any errors I've stated. 

Half pedigreed ? That's a new one, I guess you're going to know what one side is, but be surprised as heck with the other.


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## Patrick (Sep 13, 2011)

Pedigreed is different from registered. In rabbits, a pedigree is only the breeder's word. It can easily be faked. In order to be registered, a rabbit needs to be examined by a licensed ARBA Registrar. The parents and the rest of the line may or may not be registered, and this will be reflected by the color coded registration certificate, red being the lowest number of registered ancestors, gold being the most (all). 

In all livestock, regardless of species, you are paying for the quality of the animal, not more just for the "papers", but unfortunately the way most registries are organized, breeders can easily gouge people by charging more money for registered animals. In dogs this is frowned upon to the extent that it is against AKC rules, and a breeder who is caught doing it can have his registration privliges revoked.

A half pedigree is somewhat more useful than none, but less than a full, if you are interested in keeping track of bloodlines yourself, again, if it is all even true. I would be more inclined to trust someone who is offering half pedigrees, because if they were dishonest they would simply make up the rest and sell them as full pedigrees.

It all depends on your comfort level. If you want to trust that a pedigree is true, and money is that important that you want to sell offspring that you can represent as same, buy the full pedigree. If not, buy them without and start keeping your own pedigrees, making it three generations until you can sell them for more.

4h doesn't know the first thing about sophisticated breeding practices such as keeping pedigrees, line breeding, selection, etc, so if you want them just for 4h and for meat, don't waste the extra money.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

I wouldnt waste the $ if you are breeding for meat rabbits...but, in my area pedigree meat breeds are hard to come by. The region is flooded with Lionheads, Mini Rex and Lops.

You might want to see how hard it is to find pedigree meat breeds near you. One option is keeping cheaper rabbits for your meat bunnies, and maybe buying 1 more expensive breeding pair to sell to people who want full peds. If they are rare, you may find that they sell well and at a good price with full peds.


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

I have pedigreed French Lops as they were SQ stock and I intended to sell babies that could be shown and possibly show myself. My Cals and NZW's are not pedigreed, though I fill in my own if I keep any babies- they are for meat. With these my only interest is keeping track myself of who throws what, performance records, weight gains from which rabbits, etc. I do tattoo all my rabbits and record it with a name to keep track of them in that regard. Yes, I paid less for non-pedigreed rabbits for meat. Most of them were from a show breeder that also had a commercial line. Some were from who knows where, but had qualities I wanted. I couild not see paying more for papers if I was not going to show them....as the important things to me was not what parents they had, etc but what these rabbits produced for the table.
So bottom line is what you intend to do with the rabbits and thier babies is what will guide you as to needing papers or not.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

It doesn't really benefit someone to paper hang a rabbit as it would a dog. When it comes to purebred rabbits, genetics are pretty easy due to the way you breed color sets together. It would be obvious if one had a false pedigree after a couple rounds of breeding. You make a bad name for your self in the rabbit show world, you are sunk. Its a much smaller circle then the dog show world.
You would be hard pressed to find someone out there who falsifies rabbit pedigrees. Usually, if I am looking to purchase and I have any inkling of a question, I ask someone else in that breed. Who is ____? Are their animals worth having? People know.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

There really is no big benefit to making up information on pedigrees for rabbits. For your average rabbit, it's probably a 15.00-20.00 in price. If someone notices that things don't add up, your reputation is gone. In show/pedigreed rabbits, that means quite a bit.


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## Ruralnurse (Jun 23, 2011)

So what I am learning is that there are pedigreed rabbits and pedigreed/registered rabbits. To be actually registered the rabbit has to have at least a 3 generation pedigree with names and tattoos numbers and the rabbit must be evaluated by a judge (or person of authority from the registering body??). So if I had a non-pedigreed rabbit that appeared to be of a certain breed, I could breed it to a pedigreed rabbit (keeping records), breed those babies to a pedigreed rabbit, and those babies again until I had a 3 generation pedigree and if the rabbit passed an evaluation, I could then register it.

And that if I want to raise rabbits for the table, of course pedigrees are not useful except in keeping track of who came from whom. And I can definitely see why keeping records of numbers in litters, number raised, weights and health status is valuable. 

So people could falsify a rabbit pedigree but does not sound like that happens much. And if I decide I want pedigreed or registered rabbits for any reason I should start with good stock from a breeder with a good reputation. I would imagine that the occasional pet purchasers donât care about pedigrees. 

I can see that I would like pedigrees even if only for myself if the rabbits I had were colored and not just the plain white. One of the reasons I loved raising Persians and Dachshunds is that I loved the color genetics and seeing what I could produce.

Thanks everyone, that was helpful. 

Ruralnurse


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Pedigrees are not required for shows, either. All that's required is that they meet the breed standard and have No DQ's for the breed they're being shown under.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

A licensed registrar is who must evaluate your adult rabbit for registration. In answer to your summary questions, yes, you've got it.


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## Wildfire_Jewel (Nov 5, 2006)

And in some cases, even fully pedigreed rabbits from very reputable breeders will have some off colors show up in litters. 
We bred a solid black mini rex to a seemingly solid blue mini rex and had a litter of mostly black/orange and blue/fawn HARLEQUINS!!! Beautiful rabbits however there was no indication anywhere on the pedigrees that this could have happened. Pedigrees only show what the parents, grandparents etc colors are NOT what the rest of the colors were in the litter.
And come to find out - the blue doe we used that appeared solid (and had won her classes in shows as a solid)? She had several white hairs between the toes of one foot and was genetically a broken :stars: which should have resulted in brokens but the buck must have carried a hidden harlequin gene as well.
pundit squares make my head spin!!


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## Falls-Acre (May 13, 2009)

Keep in mind that to register a rabbit, the pedigree must be complete. This is more difficult than you would think. That doesn't just mean names, each ancestor must have name or ear number, color, and weight. All ancestors are required to be of the same breed. The weights seem to be the most often forgotten. How many times do you remember to take your rabbit to the scales when they turn 6 months? 

The rabbit cannot be registered until they are 6 months of age (senior, considered an adult) and must match the breed standard, including weight. For some breeds this alone is a daunting expectation. Honestly, as far as value is concerned, non-pedigreed stock is the lowest, because there is no chance of ever registering them or their immediate offspring. Then pedigreed stock, then registered stock. Registered are more valuable because a registrar has sat with the rabbit, examined it carefully, and declared in writing that the animal meets the breed criteria and qualifications. Only registered animals qualify for grand champion status (the most valuable level for a rabbit).


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