# Site Controversy



## Melissa

I am just getting caught up on the recent controversy about posts from here being copied to other forums owned by Carbon Media and not being attributed to the original poster. I truly believe it is an unethical, awful way to do business and I do not agree with it in any way. I apologize to all of our members here for what is happening. 

I have always tried to operate the Family forum as a separate, independent entity and not really gotten overly involved with the operation of the site as a whole. My own moral code is to treat everyone here with respect, kindness and consideration. _I did not know this was happening_ and I do not agree with it at all. I am not paid to be here and I have absolutely no financial interest in this place.

Please accept my sincere apology and you can discuss anything you want about this issue on this thread and it won't be closed by anyone.


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## unregistered41671

Thank you Melissa. This is the way it should be. Discussed and out in the open for all to see, and *if* any wrongs have taken place, make things right.


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## Tiempo

Thank you Melissa.


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## Miss Kay

Thanks but we'll see if they over ride you on this one. I had a post deleted here yesterday. I have asked to have all my previous posts deleted but that has not happened. I do not want my words out there to be used by this corporation in any way they like. I will use my name and post where I want for the public to see, it should not be moved or used elsewhere. So, can they or will they remove all my previos posts or is there a way I can do that?


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## BlackFeather

Who exactly is copying them, and what subjects are they copying? From the statement "awful way to do business" it would imply it is being done by someone in the management of the board not just a member?

I can only speak for myself but if something I posted will help others I don't need recognition. The only thing that troubles me is if someone posts information about a messy family problem, that should be left here and not spread all over, even though the public can lurk here.

I forgot to ask where are the posts going to?

Update:
I tried to post at the end of the thread but my token had expired, what ever that means so I'll try and edit here,

In short I have read the threads, and the corporation should not have done what it had did. The issue I see aside from not giving credit where credit is due is if these posts were to try and increase traffic for the purpose of revenue generation, the it seems to me to be fraud toward the advertisers. So as far as Steve is concerned, he apologized, and I accept that. When I worked at Radio Shack we all at one time or another did something we thought was a good idea that the next day we would look at again and wonder how we ever thought it was a good idea. We called it a "brain-fart." So a message to Steve, I accept your apology, and just learn from the experience. After all "he that is without sin cast the first stone."


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## Melissa

BlackFeather said:


> Who exactly is copying them, and what subjects are they copying? From the statement "awful way to do business" it would imply it is being done by someone in the management of the board not just a member?
> 
> I can only speak for myself but if something I posted will help others I don't need recognition. The only thing that troubles me is if someone posts information about a messy family problem, that should be left here and not spread all over, even though the public can lurk here.
> 
> I forgot to ask where are the posts going to?


All I know is what I have on various threads here. Check out the announcement forum for more information.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ad...s-i-made-here-showing-up-cattleforum-com.html


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## Melissa

Miss Kay said:


> Thanks but we'll see if they over ride you on this one. I had a post deleted here yesterday. I have asked to have all my previous posts deleted but that has not happened. I do not want my words out there to be used by this corporation in any way they like. I will use my name and post where I want for the public to see, it should not be moved or used elsewhere. So, can they or will they remove all my previos posts or is there a way I can do that?


 I believe it is possible to have a person completely removed, I am not sure what it involves. I have deleted posts for people before, but have to do them one-by-one and that takes a lot of time.


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## painterswife

Entire posts got posted under the user names on other forums. The user name was not the user name of the person who originally posted it here.

For example Willow posted about her cow rescue. They then copied the post and "Alice" posted it on the cattle forum and had a conversation like it was her doing the rescue. Exact same words.


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## Tiempo

BlackFeather said:


> Who exactly is copying them, and what subjects are they copying? From the statement "awful way to do business" it would imply it is being done by someone in the management of the board not just a member?
> 
> I can only speak for myself but if something I posted will help others I don't need recognition. The only thing that troubles me is if someone posts information about a messy family problem, that should be left here and not spread all over, even though the public can lurk here.
> 
> I forgot to ask where are the posts going to?


There's a lot of coverage about this down in the "Announcements & Support" forum.


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## Wendy

> Thanks but we'll see if they over ride you on this one. I had a post deleted here yesterday. I have asked to have all my previous posts deleted but that has not happened. I do not want my words out there to be used by this corporation in any way they like. I will use my name and post where I want for the public to see, it should not be moved or used elsewhere. So, can they or will they remove all my previos posts or is there a way I can do that?


I have read that they will not delete entire posts by people. If you want to do so, you are free to leave the site, but the posts will remain.

Also, from what I know, the posts used were from the animal forums.


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## Dixie Bee Acres

Melissa, thank you. I wish other forums were allowed the same courtesy without our discussions being deleted.


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## Rick

AS MY WIFE ANN SAID, GO MELISSA! 

If they do not close this, there will be a mountain of posts.

Posts were copied, from here to other, seemingly fledgling forums, under name of persons who obviously weren't the authors. People on the other forums took the time and responded to these posts as if they were new and genuine.

The perceived reason was to bolster the page count, and build up the forums participation.


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## Guest

Rose2005 was completely deleted, and at the time it was said that it was pretty easy. Why can't people ask to have all their posts removed? Why does the ownership of this forum need to be antagonistic to the members? And, if the forum owners believe that they own the content posted, then do they feel that they're responsible for erroneous information? If a member posts to drink drano for a flu, and a child dies, does the ownership of this forum step up to the plate and say, yes that's our position? They can't have it both ways. 

People are wanting their posts deleted. What's the problem with that? Why can't ownership of this forum do something the members ask for, instead of clamming up, saying it won't happen again, and counting their nickels and dimes until it all blows over?


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## Melissa

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> Melissa, thank you. I wish other forums were allowed the same courtesy without our discussions being deleted.


 Now if there are any cuss-words involved, I am deleting that~ :hobbyhors


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## Jokarva

Sorry, I'm a tech idiot...but what's the purpose of copying people's posts elsewhere? Is there some financial benefit? Or just to look like there are more users of that forum than there really are?


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## Melissa

Personally, they way I have always operated, if you make a post on the family board and you later want it be deleted for any reason, I have happily done it. People change their minds and I believe you own your thread. However, I can only speak for myself and this forum.



zong said:


> Rose2005 was completely deleted, and at the time it was said that it was pretty easy. Why can't people ask to have all their posts removed? Why does the ownership of this forum need to be antagonistic to the members? And, if the forum owners believe that they own the content posted, then do they feel that they're responsible for erroneous information? If a member posts to drink drano for a flu, and a child dies, does the ownership of this forum step up to the plate and say, yes that's our position? They can't have it both ways.
> 
> People are wanting their posts deleted. What's the problem with that? Why can't ownership of this forum do something the members ask for, instead of clamming up, saying it won't happen again, and counting their nickels and dimes until it all blows over?


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## Dixie Bee Acres

Melissa said:


> Now if there are any cuss-words involved, I am deleting that~ :hobbyhors


Awwww, man....!!!


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## Melissa

Jokarva said:


> Sorry, I'm a tech idiot...but what's the purpose of copying people's posts elsewhere? Is there some financial benefit? Or just to look like there are more users of that forum than there really are?


 I guess to build the forums and possibly stimulate conversations and add more users- which I imagine drives more traffic and increases ad revenue?? This is my best guess, I am not very business-oriented or tech savvy either...


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## Wind in Her Hair

Melissa said:


> Please accept my sincere apology and you can discuss anything you want about this issue on this thread and it won't be closed by anyone.


atta girl. :cowboy:


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## Wendy

To try to drive traffic to that forum from what I understand. I realize they are in this to make money, but most of the posters had said if they would have been asked, they would have given permission for their posts to be used. They just wanted the credit for the posts which I completely understand. One post was where Willow had saved a cow from what I understand. By posting it under "Alice" in the other forum, it made it seem as if "Alice" was the gal that saved the cow & there is no Alice. It was deceitful to the posters on that site who thought they were discussing something with a real person. 

Like Melissa, I have a very high code of morals & ethics & this doesn't sit with me well at all. I do not like what was done & I really, really, really hate to think of all the good people we will lose over this.


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## MJsLady

Melissa, thank you.
I do not know if any of my posts were copied, and since I don't post often or in the homesteady areas I doubt they were.
However, I have been reading on this issue, being a forum owner myself I was appalled. 

Yours is the first really believable apology I have seen.


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## Wendy

> Personally, they way I have always operated, if you make a post on the family board and you later want it be deleted for any reason, I have happily done it. People change their minds and I believe you own your thread. However, I can only speak for myself and this forum.


Not sure how easy it is for them to delete posts across the entire board. I'm sure it can be done, but doesn't seem like it will be & we would lose a HUGE amount of good information from people.


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## Wendy

WIHH---- good to see you!!!!


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## vicker

Also, the response from admin, to this point, has been feeble, to put it nicely.


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## Wendy

I agree & I think it will be very hard for them to do damage control on this one.


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## Melissa

Thank you. I sincerely am appalled by this. I have believed in the concept of this place since the day Chuck asked me to join him in this endeavor 14 years ago. I am seriously offended that things are going like this and have changed so much.



MJsLady said:


> Melissa, thank you.
> I do not know if any of my posts were copied, and since I don't post often or in the homesteady areas I doubt they were.
> However, I have been reading on this issue, being a forum owner myself I was appalled.
> 
> Yours is the first really believable apology I have seen.


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## Melissa

Right, the information is important. That is why we need to conduct ourselves with the utmost integrity. This is worth more than money-at least to some of us.



Wendy said:


> Not sure how easy it is for them to delete posts across the entire board. I'm sure it can be done, but doesn't seem like it will be & we would lose a HUGE amount of good information from people.


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## Tiempo

Wendy said:


> I agree & I think it will be very hard for them to do damage control on this one.


Their attempt has been very poor and only made things worse for them.

If Angie and Carbon Media had immediately issued a sincere apology and not gone around deleting threads and making up profoundly unbelievable stories about what they did I think this might have been almost blown over by now.


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## Molly Mckee

Last night the page count was 16, I believe, on the Adm site on the post coping. It's been shrinking, now down to 8. That alone says something to me. A simple We're sorry,we made a mistake would have gone a long way. Stonewalling people has made for more upset.


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## Guest

Thank you for actually responding, as opposed to the canned response of the admin person. Yesterday and today were the first posts I've made on HT in several months. The reasons I stopped posting are unimportant to this matter, but I feel strongly that anything anybody post is theirs and theirs alone. It seems things may have reached the "sacrificial lamb" phase here, and so far, banning members has been the sacrifice. Look how much knowledge has already left, to never come back. And how many potential members, many with knowledge of their own, will just not join, or join up and recoil in horror, never to post again. Chitchat and being nice is all well and good, but I'd rather have one Martin than a thousand feel-good insincere "we have learned our lesson and it won't happen again" Management is breaking HT, and that's all there is to it.


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## where I want to

But does it also feed into the feeling that these forums are no longer as good a place to get information or understanding? That the forums themselves are managed in a negative way as the posters are seen as a product?


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## Melissa

Molly Mckee said:


> Last night the page count was 16, I believe, on the Adm site on the post coping. It's been shrinking, now down to 8. That alone says something to me. A simple We're sorry,we made a mistake would have gone a long way. Stonewalling people has made for more upset.


 I did not see that post until this morning so I don't know how many posts were there initially or what was deleted- or if anything was. I did see the one Willowgirl made initially, and thought it was someone just copying her posts from here. I had no idea it was being done the way it was.


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## Dutchie

Wendy said:


> I have read that they will not delete entire posts by people. If you want to do so, you are free to leave the site, but the posts will remain.
> .


Of course. That information is their bread and butter.


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## Oggie

Folks need to understand that, from a legal standpoint (at least as it is being presented by the owners of this site), when you post anything on a HomesteadingToday forum, you are essentially gifting it to the site and, thereby, the owners of the site.

That goes for handy homesteading tips, the touching story about your dying granny or whatever.

What we post here is content and generating content is necessary for any website to keep going and creating revenue. 

Content (with the exception to almost all of what I post) has value.

By taking content from this website and replicating it on other sites, the amount of content and its value are increased.

And, because the owners of this site believe that they already own the content, they might not have seen the ethical errors of the practice (although changing the user names when repurposing the content seems, on its face, a bit shady).


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## Dutchie

Thank you for standing up for what is right, Melissa.


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## Wendy

> It seems things may have reached the "sacrificial lamb" phase here, and so far, banning members has been the sacrifice.


I just wanted to comment on this. If someone is banned, they do it on their own. They are given plenty of warnings to correct their behavior. Yes, a lot of long time posters have been banned, but it is through no fault but their own. Some thought since they were here so long the rules didn't apply to them.


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## Melissa

I am always sorry when someone is banned, well not always the people who show up and spam the board or just to cause controversy, but I am really sorry when the long-time posters who actually walk-the-walk are banned. 99% of the time it has nothing to do with my board, so there is not much I can do about it. 

Contrary to popular belief, my board has always welcomed discussion on virtually any topic that has to do with homesteading and family living in the country. My only request is to be respectful in your discussions. I believe it is possible to disagree or to give someone advice without being rude or hateful. 



zong said:


> Thank you for actually responding, as opposed to the canned response of the admin person. Yesterday and today were the first posts I've made on HT in several months. The reasons I stopped posting are unimportant to this matter, but I feel strongly that anything anybody post is theirs and theirs alone. It seems things may have reached the "sacrificial lamb" phase here, and so far, banning members has been the sacrifice. Look how much knowledge has already left, to never come back. And how many potential members, many with knowledge of their own, will just not join, or join up and recoil in horror, never to post again. Chitchat and being nice is all well and good, but I'd rather have one Martin than a thousand feel-good insincere "we have learned our lesson and it won't happen again" Management is breaking HT, and that's all there is to it.


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## Melissa

Dutchie said:


> Of course. That information is their bread and butter.


 In all fairness, this policy has pretty much always been in effect. It does really interfere with the continuity of threads to have some posts completely disappear. And as stated above, the information is valuable from a practical standpoint to those who are actually homesteading~


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## Guest

My observation is somewhat different. I notice that some posters are allowed more leeway than others. But that is not the subject here. Just in pointing out if I was stealing and lying about it on the forum, the punishment would be a little more severe than shutting down threads and deleting posts that opposed my misconduct..

ETA: This posted somehow before I finished(giant fingers I guess)


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## Tiempo

Wendy said:


> I just wanted to comment on this. If someone is banned, they do it on their own. They are given plenty of warnings to correct their behavior. Yes, a lot of long time posters have been banned, but it is through no fault but their own. Some thought since they were here so long the rules didn't apply to them.


People have been banned for simply disagreeing, and not impolitely, with the opinion of an admin. favored member (not in Melissa's forum that I've ever seen though, but in the lower boards for sure)


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## vicki in NW OH

Last night I was trying to sort all this out in my mind. Sometimes it takes me a while. 

The feeling that came over me, though, was that this is like a marriage gone bad, where one spouse cheats on the other. The trust and respect is gone, just a real sinking feeling in your heart.


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## Melissa

Myself, I believe that each person has value as a human-being, as a story-teller, as a source of experience. I miss those days when we were just a bunch of people telling our story and learning from one another. So yes, if we turn people into a commodity and our goal is to see how much we can get from them, we lose a lot. Maybe everything. People will usually give freely what you could not buy.



where I want to said:


> But does it also feed into the feeling that these forums are no longer as good a place to get information or understanding? That the forums themselves are managed in a negative way as the posters are seen as a product?


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## Dutchie

Oggie said:


> Folks need to understand that, from a legal standpoint (at least as it is being presented by the owners of this site), when you post anything on a HomesteadingToday forum, you are essentially gifting it to the site and, thereby, the owners of the site.
> 
> That goes for handy homesteading tips, the touching story about your dying granny or whatever.
> 
> What we post here is content and generating content is necessary for any website to keep going and creating revenue.
> 
> Content (with the exception to almost all of what I post) has value.
> 
> By taking content from this website and replicating it on other sites, the amount of content and its value are increased.
> 
> And, because the owners of this site believe that they already own the content, they might not have seen the ethical errors of the practice (although changing the user names when repurposing the content seems, on its face, a bit shady).


I fully agree with you Oggie. And if these threads had been reposted under the original posters' names I doubt there would have been a problem.

It is the manner in which is was done that is sleazy.


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## painterswife

My take on this. 

This is a community. People show up looking for info but stay because they make friends. It does not look like the new owners want to be friends. They did not even introduce themselves when they bought it.


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## Melissa

Being a fair, impartial moderator is difficult. It is hard to leave your own personal bias at the door and it is hard to moderate those that you like. Not everyone can or should do it. I tell myself that I am usually pretty good at it, but there are probably times that I am not. 



zong said:


> My observation is somewhat different. I notice that some posters are allowed more leeway than others. But that is not the subject here. Just in pointing out if I was stealing and lying about it on the forum, the punishment would be a little more severe than shutting down threads and deleting posts that opposed my misconduct..
> 
> ETA: This posted somehow before I finished(giant fingers I guess)


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## Melissa

Tiempo said:


> People have been banned for simply disagreeing, and not impolitely, with the opinion of an admin. favored member (not in Melissa's forum that I've ever seen though, but in the lower boards for sure)


 That will never happen in my forum, that is a promise.


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## Melissa

vicki in NW OH said:


> Last night I was trying to sort all this out in my mind. Sometimes it takes me a while.
> 
> The feeling that came over me, though, was that this is like a marriage gone bad, where one spouse cheats on the other. The trust and respect is gone, just a real sinking feeling in your heart.


 I know what you mean, I feel the same way.


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## Guest

Well, I've gotta do some work, and get back to real life. However, in closing my part of this conversation, I have to say that overwhelmingly, people that I've been in any sort of contact with don't think anything will change about the business model here. We feel like we've been sold down the river. Rightly or wrongly, thats the overwhelming feeling that I'm observing. Management can stop the bleeding if they want to, but it seems they enjoy the damage they've done. I feel bad for the moderators that are stuck in the middle of this, but it's them doing this to you, not us.


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## Dixie Bee Acres

I've noticed what's-his-name and Angie seemed to have gone into hiding.
That tells me they are currently in a board meeting of sorts trying to work up a plan for damage control.
I'm sure they are still reading (look below, says 22 members and 17 guests, yet only 13 members names show) in invisible mode. There will be another announcement made, I'm sure, but no true reprecussions for the unethical actions taken.


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## Rick

Wendy said:


> WIHH---- good to see you!!!!


YOU AND ME BOTH!

If I had time, I'd take up knitting!


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## Melissa

Just because something is legal, does not make it right. I do think sometimes people have these ideas that sound good at the time, but if there was further reflection they might realize that it is not really a good idea. One thing I have seen is that there is not enough discussion with the moderators when a new idea comes along. We know the people here and have a pretty good idea of what the pulse of the community is. Trust me, if I had been aware of this I would have fought long and hard against it.


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## Tiempo

Melissa said:


> I know what you mean, I feel the same way.


If I were you I'd be tempted to go independent, we would follow.


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## Melissa

I know, I have been told that many times Tiempo. I have always believed in this place and it is hard to let it go when I have built it through so many hours and hours of really caring. To me, it is personal...


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## hippygirl

You're a stand-up gal, Melissa!


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## TRAILRIDER

Wow! I had no idea. Also a tech idiot here. I didn't realize there was any reason to steal posts to be used elsewhere. Oh well, I also do not consider this ethical at all. But I figure if I'm putting something out there (yes, I'm waving my hands pointing out in nowhere land) on the internet it could end up anywhere.


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## MJsLady

> There will be another announcement made, I'm sure, but no true reprecussions for the unethical actions taken


If one of us had done this, I can pretty much bet we would get booted and banned.
Which would be only fitting. theft is theft. Theft like trolling can not be tolerated on a decent forum. 

The problem is it seems the owners did this. How can they ban themselves?


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## mzgarden

I posted this in the original thread last night. Today, I am even more sad than I was last night. 
I am so very sad. I don't yet have enough knowledge to help much but I routinely come here seeking the help of experts. 

The loss of so much knowledge (current, past and future) feels a little bit like a library full of rare and unique editions is on fire - no way to get the information back and no one to answer future questions.

Just so very very sad.


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## Selena

And let's see.. what was the reason given as to why HT was sold in 2012....

_With the onerous level of regulation, taxation and liability faced by entrepreneurs here in the United States....

_I guess Carbon Media doesn't find this to be an issue.


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## Molly Mckee

Melissa said:


> I know, I have been told that many times Tiempo. I have always believed in this place and it is hard to let it go when I have built it through so many hours and hours of really caring. To me, it is personal...


You might be able to make money if you go on your own. Our neighbor had a website 10 or so years ago and was making over $3000.00 per month on it--and I did see some checks. Anyway it might be an option.


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## Tiempo

MJsLady said:


> If one of us had done this, I can pretty much bet we would get booted and banned.
> Which would be only fitting. theft is theft. Theft like trolling can not be tolerated on a decent forum.
> 
> The problem is it seems the owners did this. How can they ban themselves?


In my opinion, all Carbon Media employees who were involved in this and the sad attempt at a cover up should be fired. That may be the only way to get the trust back. But then how would we know if they really had?


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## Melissa

MJsLady said:


> If one of us had done this, I can pretty much bet we would get booted and banned.
> Which would be only fitting. theft is theft. Theft like trolling can not be tolerated on a decent forum.
> 
> The problem is it seems the owners did this. How can they ban themselves?


Of course they can't and won't ban themselves. However if they want this to be successful- and I am guessing they do since they want to make some money from it, then they have to learn the community. That is vital. If it isn't too late...


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## Raeven

First, thank you, *Melissa*. I'm moved to post for the first time in quite awhile.



Oggie said:


> Folks need to understand that, from a legal standpoint (at least as it is being presented by the owners of this site), when you post anything on a HomesteadingToday forum, you are essentially gifting it to the site and, thereby, the owners of the site.
> 
> That goes for handy homesteading tips, the touching story about your dying granny or whatever.
> 
> What we post here is content and generating content is necessary for any website to keep going and creating revenue.
> 
> Content (with the exception to almost all of what I post) has value.
> 
> By taking content from this website and replicating it on other sites, the amount of content and its value are increased.
> 
> And, because the owners of this site believe that they already own the content, they might not have seen the ethical errors of the practice (although changing the user names when repurposing the content seems, on its face, a bit shady).


As is often the case, *Oggie*, you nailed it yet again. I will add my own little thoughts on the matter.

I don&#8217;t think most folks on this site would have objected to republishing their content per se. Most of us understand that whatever we say in a public forum becomes public property and will molder on the Interwebs forever. However, the publishing of that information under fictitious names and characters is shocking and, frankly, stupid. Also stupid is for management to assume the laughable explanation that was offered would be accepted unquestioningly by the members of this forum. They may be back-to-landers, but they are anything but dumb.

As has been pointed out, most forum members would have willingly agreed to allow their content to be republished on another site and probably even heartily participated on those sites to answer new questions generated by real people therefrom. But because the authors were not credited with their own authorship, they are placed in an awful position of having their content misconstrued, misused and possibly pose a hazard to other unsuspecting homesteading types who were genuinely seeking information. Worst of all, they didn&#8217;t even know it was being done.

In the end, the damage is already done. Those with substantive information to share will stop sharing it (if they haven&#8217;t already), because there is no trust in management to use it ethically or with care &#8211; or that they will even receive credit for having promulgated their own thoughts and experiences. Many of the seasoned, experienced individuals who have freely shared of their knowledge and *created the very value of this site* are the ones who will stop posting and sharing. They are the forty who are leaving. I doubt the forty who may take their place will have any incentive to provide anything close to the body of knowledge that has been or is being lost. I could sadly name a dozen or so who had already stopped posting before this idiotic incident, but we all know who they are. (Nice to see you, *zong*, *vicker*... have missed your wit and excellent posts but understand well why they have not been forthcoming.)

The heavy-handed administration of HT had already ensured a race to the bottom, and I suspect the unscrupulous behavior demonstrated by this recent caper will provide the last nail in the coffin of HT as a flourishing, vibrant homesteading website. It&#8217;s a shame, but it has been a long time in coming. Very sad.


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## Melissa

Selena said:


> And let's see.. what was the reason given as to why HT was sold in 2012....
> 
> _With the onerous level of regulation, taxation and liability faced by entrepreneurs here in the United States....
> 
> _I guess Carbon Media doesn't find this to be an issue.


 Well there is a lot of regulation and taxation for sure. I think that is why we see the constant striving to figure out some other way to earn money.


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## fordy

............This just may be the moment of 'Critical Mass' for a new beginning for WE have walked through the valley Of The Internet Fire and we fear No Electronic Evil , lol ! , fordy:idea:


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## MJsLady

I agree Melissa. Unfortunately I think it is already to late for that. I mean some of the best, most informative posters have already been banned. 
Sure they might have been grouches but they still helped others. 

I am still mulling this whole debacle over. I might just take a vacation for a while and just visit my own site. 

I was not a victim, but I can't stand dishonesty. Online or off.


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## Melissa

MJsLady said:


> I agree Melissa. Unfortunately I think it is already to late for that. I mean some of the best, most informative posters have already been banned.
> Sure they might have been grouches but they still helped others.
> 
> I am still mulling this whole debacle over. I might just take a vacation for a while and just visit my own site.
> 
> I was not a victim, but I can't stand dishonesty. Online or off.


 I understand. Even if damage-control is implemented, well, you still have damage that will never be undone. People just aren't going to forget and I imagine the vast majority of the posters here have this feeling that what happened is wrong. It may be that rare thing that pretty much everyone here can agree upon...


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

If these sites are the product, and potential advertisers are the consumers, then I think I have a definition for what has happened

marketing fraud

The act of purposely misleading or deceiving the public in order to generate more interest or acceptance in a product. Some examples of marketing fraud are false advertising, exaggerating claims,or misrepresenting product characteristics in advertising.


----------



## Melissa

Ok, I have to run to Kadia's and eat lunch. I promise will be come back to this thread and answer any questions and concerns you may have.


----------



## Cygnet

When I joined this site, a long _long _time ago, I read the TOS and made sure I maintained copyright on anything I posted. I have _never _agreed to a new TOS, nor have I been made aware of any change. If they are posting my words on another site, they are doing so in violation of _my _copyright, as agreed to originally, when I joined. 

DMCA comes to mind.


----------



## vicker

I, like many others I am sure, have always felt like this is my place, and enjoyed the many and various points of views and opinions. I have been really disappointed with the site for some time now, rarely posting but, reading and hanging around hoping things would get better. 

This latest development, and sorry attempts made by admin in the face of it, have pretty much closed the book for me, and that saddens me greatly. I am staying to see what attempts are made to correct such a gigantic mess but, I can't imagine it is fixable. Truly heartbreaking.


----------



## Terri in WV

Oggie said:


> By taking content from this website and replicating it on other sites, the amount of content and its value are increased.



By doing the above and then boasting of over 500 websites and 30 million "unique" visitors, this below is what is created:





Dixie Bee Acres said:


> If these sites are the product, and potential advertisers are the consumers, then I think I have a definition for what has happened
> 
> marketing fraud
> 
> The act of purposely misleading or deceiving the public in order to generate more interest or acceptance in a product. Some examples of marketing fraud are false advertising, exaggerating claims,or misrepresenting product characteristics in advertising.



Major advertisers can be found with a quick search. Perhaps everyone should inform them of their displeasure in this practice?


----------



## Tommyice

I've said it before....Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

It's a shame it doesn't make the garbage smell any sweeter.


----------



## Cygnet

Cygnet said:


> When I joined this site, a long _long _time ago, I read the TOS and made sure I maintained copyright on anything I posted. I have _never _agreed to a new TOS, nor have I been made aware of any change. If they are posting my words on another site, they are doing so in violation of _my _copyright, as agreed to originally, when I joined.
> 
> DMCA comes to mind.


ETA: 

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_who_owns

Yeah, at some point over the years, they've changed the TOS. This site had _*NOTHING *_claiming ownership of *my* words when I joined -- I make a point of reading the TOS of any site I join, and have for a very long time -- basically, as long as I've been online. (That personal policy has to do with a background in journalism, and having my words edited in such a way that the meaning was changed before, with me having zero legal recourse even though I was made to look like a fool.) 

I ... will not be posting here as often.

And this isn't legal. Nope. Not even close. I was never asked to agree to a new TOS. I would *NEVER *have granted permission for my words to be posted to a new site, where I had no control over them.


----------



## Selena

Melissa said:


> Well there is a lot of regulation and taxation for sure. I think that is why we see the constant striving to figure out some other way to earn money.


The deck is stacked in Carbon's favor, there is little, if any, regulation of the internet. I've not bought the taxation talking point since the early 80s. The "we own the content" is undertaking risk. If found to cause harm, copyrighted material, and/or considered libelous, the end result may not be pretty. But hey, corporations are people too! 

For those so inclined, take a gander at good old Carbon Media's website. Then make your choice(s).


----------



## Suzyq2u

Wow, I don't even know what to say. 
You expect this type of behavior from internet trolls...
but from "management" ?! 
Serious betrayal. 
I'm going to have to do some thinking.


----------



## Tiempo

vicker said:


> I, like many others I am sure, have always felt like this is my place, and enjoyed the many and various points of views and opinions. I have been really disappointed with the site for some time now, rarely posting but, reading and hanging around hoping things would get better.
> 
> This latest development, and sorry attempts made by admin in the face of it, have pretty much closed the book for me, and that saddens me greatly. I am staying to see what attempts are made to correct such a gigantic mess but, I can't imagine it is fixable. Truly heartbreaking.


My first instinct was to leave but I've decided to stay to at least see if any meaningful changes are made that will make it tenable to stay. If not, I'm out.


----------



## Wendy

> People have been banned for simply disagreeing, and not impolitely, with the opinion of a favored member.


I used to think so until I became a mod & actually see what goes on behind the scenes. No one has any idea how many infractions another poster has that led up to them being banned. So what may seem like them getting banned for disagreeing on a post might in fact just be the last straw.


----------



## Tiempo

Wendy said:


> I used to think so until I became a mod & actually see what goes on behind the scenes. No one has any idea how many infractions another poster has that led up to them being banned. So what may seem like them getting banned for disagreeing on a post might in fact just be the last straw.


I was banned, then quite a while later let back in at SE&P for disagreeing, not rudely, with another member. I did not have an accumulation of infractions.


----------



## MO_cows

Tiempo said:


> In my opinion, all Carbon Media employees who were involved in this and the sad attempt at a cover up should be fired. That may be the only way to get the trust back. But then how would we know if they really had?


I disagree with firing anyone at this time. Someone who has learned a hard lesson is better in the long term than someone who hasn't had their "trial by fire" yet. You learn and grow from your mistakes.

I have thought about leaving the forum, for now have decided to stay because of the value of the contents here. But I will likely read more and post less because I don't trust the site like I used to. 

I knew when I signed up that I gave away the rights to what I posted here. However, I trusted the site owners enough to do so. I was even thinking about becoming a paying member. 

But using real content from real posters here to "spoof" on another site under a false name is not a classy move to put it kindly. The people who respond to it are just wasting their time, and it looks like the OP has abandoned their thread.

A real apology and a sincere pledge to be more respectful of the members in the future would go a long way, I believe.


----------



## Wendy

Geesh! My electric went off for no reason for over an hour. A nice, bright, sunny day!


----------



## Wendy

Geesh! My electric went off for no reason for over an hour. A nice, bright, sunny day!


----------



## Pony

I'm appalled and sickened by this.

This would, though, explain some posts I've noticed by people who have supposedly been here a loooong time, making a 10th or 20th post. Now it makes sense. Perhaps they're gleaning posts from other sites.

Not happy, unsure what to do about it yet. I've been here over a decade, and it hurts to see this whole thing go down the drain. But I hate dishonesty and unethical behavior with a white-hot passion, and won't tolerate or participate in anything underhanded like this.


----------



## Wendy

> I was banned, then quite a while later let back in at SE&P for disagreeing, not rudely, with another member.


I don't know the circumstances. I was referring to a forum wide ban where you can't come back to the board at all. Not a single forum ban. I think sometimes mods feel people need to take a break from a forum & they give them a "time out" to help keep them from getting themselves banned totally. Not saying that was your case, but it does happen.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Wendy said:


> Geesh! My electric went off for no reason for over an hour. A nice, bright, sunny day!


Send that sunshine to this side of the state. First day of spring break for my kids and we have sleet, snow, and freezing rain mix.


----------



## Wendy

Eww!!! It's clouding up here, but not too bad of a day.


----------



## mzgarden

In the announcements/support forum, I asked a question about the rules for User Submissions, specifically the element I highlighted in blue below. I'm not sure if this changed or I didn't pay enough attention, but some of the responses appear to confirm that if I share a crochet pattern of my own creation, a recipe, a portion of a book I am writing, a photograph etc. -- it's no longer mine alone. :huh:

I simply had no idea and it troubles me.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ad...8-question-re-section-4-user-submissions.html

*Section 4. User Submissions.*
Any communication which you post to the Site or transmit to homesteadingtoday.com or to the Site by e-mail, private message (PM), public post and/or other medium can be used by homesteadingtoday.com on a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, nonexclusive license with the right to reproduce, modify, publish, edit, translate, distribute, perform, and display the communication alone or as part of other works in any form, media, or technology whether now known or hereafter developed, and to sublicense such rights through multiple tiers of sublicenses. homesteadingtoday.com may use the information it obtains relating to you, including your IP address, name, mailing address, email address and use of the Site, for its internal business and security procedures.


----------



## unregistered41671

Pony said:


> I'm appalled and sickened by this.
> 
> This would, though, explain some posts I've noticed by people who have supposedly been here a loooong time, making a 10th or 20th post. Now it makes sense. Perhaps they're gleaning posts from other sites.
> 
> Not happy, unsure what to do about it yet. I've been here over a decade, and it hurts to see this whole thing go down the drain. But I hate dishonesty and unethical behavior with a white-hot passion, and won't tolerate or participate in anything underhanded like this.


There is a member here looking at this thread that goes by the name "Click3000" that has been a member since 2007 and never made a post. Kinda makes you wonder.


----------



## sisterpine

I really do not understand the fuss? We know this is a public open forum and we know that things on the internet are easy for others to see and use as they see fit. If you find someone doing copy write infringement that is a different story. Otherwise I don't give a rats bottom who copies my public stuff to where. So feel free to spread me all over the universe!


----------



## Pony

Interesting. On the closed thread re: this, CMGSteve stated that they had "learned their lesson," but quite obviously did not state how they either plan to rectify it, or make things more trustworthy, or even if have any plan at all to do something about it.

AAMOF, after reading that post, I get the feeling it means, "We sure are going to have to get better at covering our tracks."

When we post here, we know it's the Intarwebz. We know anyone can see what we say (but I was unaware that our pm's were open season....) We're not so naive as to think that someone coming in here wouldn't cut/paste what we typed and say it was theirs.

However, I am sure we did not at all expect that our own administration would do such a thing. I'm sure Chuck didn't, and of course, back when it was Lusenet, that wasn't an issue.

This just grinds my gears. I hate being someone's widget, darnit.


----------



## Wendy

I think that is the problem. Credit was not given to the original posters.


----------



## Melissa

Right, it is just not the right way to do things. Why not be aboveboard and do this in an ethical way? I am sure that money can still be made in that way. Seems like every business is always trying to trick people or do something underhanded to make money.


----------



## Pony

sisterpine said:


> I really do not understand the fuss? We know this is a public open forum and we know that things on the internet are easy for others to see and use as they see fit. If you find someone doing copy write infringement that is a different story. Otherwise I don't give a rats bottom who copies my public stuff to where. So feel free to spread me all over the universe!


How about your private messages, Sis?


----------



## Bret

I do not exist. None of the thoughts expressed by me are original and are morphed from other snippets in my imagination at the time of my writing. Spelling errors are usually included in my posts to simulate human appearance. You know that the wardrobe malfunction that I experienced was copied and pasted and airbrushed. Thanks for overlooking that. Copying and pasting any content without my consent reveals a lack of creativity and sense of value and good taste by copiers and pasters.

Activities engaging in shortcuts for profit usually end in disappointments. Regrets, I've had a few. (You see? Not orginal.) 

I was asked recently by an individual to use content from a post of mine, that commented on original photography, and permission was given with no credit to me required. The photographer referred to my post as poetry. How could I refuse that?

I never doubt Mellisa's integrity and sincerety. 
If you want to subscribe to my shallow wading pool thoughts, copy this secret code word somewhere in your next post--SmIle. You will know where it came from. Nothing will happen. You will just feel good about it. Hopefully, it will cause the corners of your mouth to turn up slightly, your brows will lift, while your attractive and wise crowfeet just begin to show...ever so softly.


----------



## MJsLady

Sisterpine, the issue, problem was the posts lifted (stolen) were not credited to the authors. 
No matter what the tos say, that is plagiarism and it is illegal.


----------



## myheaven

What chaps me. And being one of the people copied........
They did it to boost numbers on other sites they owned to boost profit from advertisers there and for creating revenue that they have not rightly earned there in to ,STEALING. 
I came here to learn and give advice. I have done that. Remember "neighborly advice" it's no longer neighbor helping neighbor. It's about how much carbon media can milk us for.
It's no longer about learning or helping and I loath being used as a cash cow.


----------



## RichNC

sisterpine said:


> I really do not understand the fuss? We know this is a public open forum and we know that things on the internet are easy for others to see and use as they see fit. If you find someone doing copy write infringement that is a different story. Otherwise I don't give a rats bottom who copies my public stuff to where. So feel free to spread me all over the universe!


Do you actually understand that posts and pictures were taken from here, posted on another board, to drive traffic to the board, under a completely different user name, by the owners and possibly Admin of this site. Real uses on that site offered help and solutions when it was not REAL, it was just a ploy to drive traffic to their new smaller forums...and you don't have a problem with that??


----------



## where I want to

Wendy said:


> I used to think so until I became a mod & actually see what goes on behind the scenes. No one has any idea how many infractions another poster has that led up to them being banned. So what may seem like them getting banned for disagreeing on a post might in fact just be the last straw.


I wonder then if the 'points' need revisiting. I still sorely miss Martin in gardening. So he's crotchety, opinionated and abrasive. He also knew acres of stuff and was very willing to share his expertise. When such a person gets banned, it is not so much he suffers but that all those who looked to him for help suffer. 

There are people who treat other posters as personal enemies. I can see that they need to go if they attack at every point. But there are many people who get defensive and just need some time to recover their sense of proportion. 

This is the first time I have gone into depth on this issue. I hadn't realized until now how cautious I had become about contradicting a moderator as it appeared to me that a sure fire banning. I've been holding my breath waiting to reach that point myself. Not being able to talk about it leaves a festering wound. As Melissa is willing to hear the repetitive complaints, she has done more to heal the wound than the other threads.


----------



## Cygnet

The TOS needs to be changed. Point blank. End of story. 

(And lest anyone think that Carbon Media's too big to fight and too big to get them to change the TOS -- they need to review the history of some rather large social media networks. Livejournal comes to mind. Livejournal had to change their TOS to make it more user friendly for EXACTLY THE SAME REASON. IDENTICAL REASON. Myspace, by contrast, is no longer a popular social media platform at least partially BECAUSE they resisted editing their TOS to something less offensive. The users eventually up and moved to other sites.) 

This is the very problematic clause in the TOS. It wasn't there when I joined. It was added later. *The way it is worded means that Carbon Media could take any of our words, edit them any way they chose, and then create books, eBooks, blogs, or as we saw, other forums.*This includes _editing _and _altering_ words. 

Again, this has been a retroactive change. I was never made aware of it and I'm on the site every day. If I missed any notification of a change to the TOS, then I assume most people did. 

The way it's worded now ... well, they could edit one of Oggie's posts to make it look like he loves cats. Something ridiculous like that. Or they could edit one of my posts -- or yours -- to make you look like a racist bigot. Or just change a fact in your post to make you look like a flaming moron. 

And none of us would have any legal recourse.
Any communication which you post to the Site or transmit to homesteadingtoday.com or to the Site by e-mail, private message (PM), public post and/or other medium can be used by homesteadingtoday.com on a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, nonexclusive license with the right to reproduce, modify, publish, edit, translate, distribute, perform, and display the communication alone or as part of other works in any form, media, or technology whether now known or hereafter developed, and to sublicense such rights through multiple tiers of sublicenses. ​I would draw your attention to Livejournal's current TOS -- Like I said, Livejournal had a very, very, similar debacle around 2007ish. 


http://www.livejournal.com/legal/tos.bml

Note the difference with Livejournal's TOS? Yeah. They're not claiming _any _ownership. They just retain enough rights to delete anything offensive or illegal. Which is all a forum actually needs. 

A blog is not the same as a forum, but there are still some strong site-culture and practical similarities.


----------



## sidepasser

Wendy said:


> I think that is the problem. Credit was not given to the original posters.



Not only was credit not given to the original posters, the Fake posters were answering or responding on the new forum as if the event happened to them.

_How do you think the posters on the other forum feel when they responded to those fake posts? I don't know if the other forum users (where these threads were copied) know what has transpired and that they were responding to fake posts with fake user ids.

_


----------



## Melissa

Fake posters were responding too???? Wow...


----------



## Wendy

Yes, apparently, "Alice" responded as if she had saved the cow. Not sure as I haven't read it & can't now since it was deleted.


----------



## sidepasser

From what I understand, this Alice was posting in response to people asking questions on the new forum.


----------



## Wendy

OK, have to take my son to work. I hope I don't miss much!


----------



## arabian knight




----------



## Melissa

So it was an ongoing thing... That is not the way I understood it originally.


----------



## sidepasser

Even if the thread was deleted, it is never really gone.


----------



## Melissa

It's all right Wendy, we'll just wait here until you get back... lol


----------



## Melissa

sidepasser said:


> Even if the thread was deleted, it is never really gone.


 It will be cached?


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Hurry up Wendy, before I forget what I was going to say.


----------



## MJsLady

Melissa, IIRC yesterday it was said they began doing this in November until WG brought it out into the open yesterday.


----------



## Wendy

Still here. Waiting on him to get ready. 



> From what I understand, this Alice was posting in response to people asking questions on the new forum.


Yes, but Steve said Alice was a made up person, so how can a fake person answer any questions?


----------



## Wendy

OK, I'm really going now!


----------



## FarmboyBill

kinda wish I hadn't read alla these 6 pages. Ida rather remained blissfully ignorant. I will stay since whatever I post will get a new name when its reposted somewhere else. I have several friends here, and perhaps my staying may cause them to stay. I cant leave my friends. I have no one here, and to hear from these people by day is the same as going over to the neighbors to visit, which I don't do, so the people on here, for the most part are the only company I have.
For those choosing to leave, I have to respect your decision, the same as you have to respect mine to stay.


----------



## Melissa

Wendy said:


> Still here. Waiting on him to get ready.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but Steve said Alice was a made up person, so how can a fake person answer any questions?


It was all an accident... 

I was trying to read on the cattle forum site, but since I am not registered I can't see much. However it does appear that there are some threads about Homesteading Today. Wonder if their members like that they were being presented with fake posts...


----------



## Rick

Pony said:


> How about your private messages, Sis?


I used to provide my physical address via private message for Barters.

I am far back in a holler so it probably won't hurt me, but others are far more vulnerable.


----------



## myheaven

Makes me wonder if the new extreme composting book that is out in stores isn't forerunners thread compiled in a book and now being sold and carbon media is getting all the money from forerunners hard work.


----------



## fordy

Wendy said:


> Yes, apparently, "Alice" responded as if she had saved the cow. Not sure as I haven't read it & can't now since it was deleted.


 ............Pulling on the Udders gets you the 'Horns' ! , fordy:huh:


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

What is the one steadfast rule we are constantly being reminded of here?
Above and beyond all else, what sre we all told?

BE NICE!

How nice is it to be deceptive to those who essentially built the house that is collectively HT, by the new owners of that house???


----------



## Melissa

NOT NICE~ Not nice at all...


----------



## Bret

Am I the only one thinking that Wendy's baked goods are temporarily unattended. That's what's wrong with posting on-line.


----------



## Melissa

Hmm, maybe a big ole' pan of cinnamon rolls could fix this??? Or at least dull the pain... <sigh>


----------



## okiemom

The problem is not just the cut and paste but the takeover of a members name and a continuation of that persons thoughts and identity. 

The bitter pill is also that it was from the owners of this board. To be betrayed and used as a guinea pig for their secret reasons is unethical and immoral. This is identity fraud. 

The weak and nonchalant response make it clear "they"are more upset about being caught and it not working for them than the act itself. Remorse is not being shown and steps are not being made to make sure it does not happen again. 

I have been here a long time while I do not always post I have seen this go down hill as the owners make changes without telling or having us notified when changes to policy are being made.

Many are also paying members. So they know what their money is going towards?????

If many are paying they should have a say and vote in decisions in the manor of a shareholder of a public company.

Without us there would be NO HT. I would like the owners to show a little more respect to those of us who have been here and worked hard to give good information and build this up to what it is today. It would be a shame for "bots" to just be giving trash information to unsuspecting newbies. Credibility has been deeply tarnished.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Melissa, if you chose to walk away and start your own forum, I would join it.
I know you have a lot of time and "you" into this place, but this obviously isnt the place you joined back when.
There are some free to use forum softwares out there that are easy to use and manage. I started a couple different forums in the past with those.
If you start a new forum and it grows to the point of needing software such as vbulliten, do like i did on one of mine, start a donation account with paypal. Anyone is free to make a donation at any time if they choose to.
Vbulletin isn't as expensive as some think, but it isn't free by any means and once you buy it they usually have a good tech support team to help deal with any issues.
If you choose to do this, and need any assistance, just ask.


----------



## Oggie

Oh, and it should probably go without saying that just in case folks want to think that this sort of thing is unique, the commandeering and repurposing of what we might have assumed was our own property happens a lot. And often, it happens in our own houses.

You but a couch and bring it into your home. To you, its purpose is a comfortable place to sit. Yet, someone else turns it into a scratching post.

You launder your favorite sweatshirt because you want to take care of it so that you can wear it and be kept warm, but it is turned into a napping place and a collector for all sorts of loose hair and who knows what else.

You carefully till the soil in your flower beds, adding organic matter so that it will be perfect to sprout blooms that will brighten up your otherwise gloomy life, but that bed becomes the field of play for some sort of warped poop-and-go-seek game for recycling kibble.

And not much can be done about it, what with all the technicalities of vague inferred consent agreements, the implied community-use agreements and the lack of documentation to prove actual ownership. Not to mention a desire for harmony within a community in which you want to remain a part and, with that, the tendency to not want to rock the boat too much.

Sometimes you just have to jump up and down and scream, âNo! No, Kitty! Bad Kitty!â

Not that itâs going to do any good.


----------



## Cygnet

Melissa said:


> Hmm, maybe a big ole' pan of cinnamon rolls could fix this??? Or at least dull the pain... <sigh>


Just don't post the recipe. ;-) Based on the current TOS, they could alter YOUR recipe to make terrible cinnamon rolls, include it in a book of "Homesteading Today Recipes" and attribute that recipe to you!


----------



## unregistered353870

In S&EP there is a fiction section for members to post their own stories. There is some good stuff there for Carbon to steal. I'd caution anyone to reconsider sharing your fiction on HT, but I'm sure it would get deleted if I posted it down there. If you want to share anything, whether it be fiction or a knitting pattern or whatever, you should post it somewhere else and link to it. That way you're not giving ownership rights to Carbon Media.


----------



## Harry Chickpea

I am currently deciding whether or not to go dark on this site, block it entirely, or go on the offensive. I'm going to explain things in plain English and if there is no IMMEDIATE change and apology, you may not see me here - AND you may see me steer people away from posting, or hear from my attorney.

Simply put, the current TOS in regard to ownership and authorship has no legal force. The uniform commercial code is very specific that in order for there to be a valid contract BOTH parties to the contract must have a good faith exchange of value. In other words, if you come up to me and tell me how to create a nuclear rocket to get to Mars, and I have previously told you that I own anything you say to me, my claim on your idea is completely and utterly false. As for the words that I write here and elsewhere - they are MY property and not the property of anyone else. I have made it clear that NO moderator in this forum or elsewhere may modify my words in any way. A moderator may delete any post of mine IN ITS ENTIRETY, but that is all. If money is made on ANY writing of mine that is outside of the common good here, rest assured - I AM willing and motivated to sue.

Secondly - I attend this forum primarily to educate and perform a tithing of knowledge, which I find to be more true to the concept of tithing than that of most churches. As such, the posts of mine are NOT commercial speech and not for resale in any way shape or form.

Thirdly - By claiming direct ownership of the posts in a forum or publication, ANY media company lays itself open to multiple lawsuits. I have seen any number of racist and hate speech posts on the various forums here, and even though they have been redacted or deleted, they have been out in the public view. It is in no way a stretch to suggest that the NAACP, ACLU, Jewish Defense League or other organization might collect and file all such posts, and then once a sufficient number had been accumulated, bring suit and file for multiple damages. Claiming ownership of unvetted screeds on a public forum has got to be one of the dumbest, stupidist, most idiotic and insane forms of greed that I have ever run across. There is a reason why every sane media company has a disclaimer "the views expressed are not the views of blah blah blah company, etc. etc. "

Honestly, after my initial gut response of a breach of trust, my more considered one is that only an immediate apology to all and change of the TOS and policy is sufficient to prevent any one of us, or any affected outsider from placing suit.

I await the apology thread and notice.


----------



## Wendy

I'm back! What did I miss?? 

DixieBeeAcres--- take back your sleet!!


----------



## strawberrygirl

Melissa said:


> Hmm, maybe a big ole' pan of cinnamon rolls could fix this??? Or at least dull the pain... <sigh>


 I have a broken wrist so that means no baking for me. :Bawling:


----------



## Melissa

Harry, that is exactly why I DO NOT EDIT posts without permission from the original poster. It is your post so I believe in maintaining the integrity of that post in full. If a post contains material that is against the rules, I delete it in its entirety.


----------



## Melissa

Wendy said:


> I'm back! What did I miss??
> 
> DixieBeeAcres--- take back your sleet!!


 You should never leave, you're making cinnamon rolls for everyone. :nanner:


----------



## Melissa

strawberrygirl said:


> I have a broken wrist so that means no baking for me. :Bawling:


 Don't worry, Wendy is making them for everyone!

(Sorry about your wrist...)


----------



## Wendy

> Am I the only one thinking that Wendy's baked goods are temporarily unattended. That's what wrong with posting on-line.


Actually, I'm making ice cream today.


----------



## Melissa

Vanilla? To go with the cinnamon rolls, right?!?! lol


----------



## Wendy

OK, if everyone pms me your address I will send you each a complimentary cinnamon roll.


----------



## Cygnet

jtbrandt said:


> In S&EP there is a fiction section for members to post their own stories. There is some good stuff there for Carbon to steal. I'd caution anyone to reconsider sharing your fiction on HT, but I'm sure it would get deleted if I posted it down there. If you want to share anything, whether it be fiction or a knitting pattern or whatever, you should post it somewhere else and link to it. That way you're not giving ownership rights to Carbon Media.


I can think of any number of sites specifically meant for writers that do not claim global rights. Any legitimate writer's forum that did would be named and shamed by the writing community at large. 

If this site did try to swipe those stories I suspect I could put in a few words to the right people and carbon media would suddenly find themselves ... surprised ... by the response they'd get. :happy2: Writers look out for their own.


----------



## strawberrygirl

Melissa said:


> Don't worry, Wendy is making them for everyone!
> 
> (Sorry about your wrist...)


 Yay! 

Thank you.


----------



## Harry Chickpea

Cygnet said:


> I can think of any number of sites specifically meant for writers that do not claim global rights. Any legitimate writer's forum that did would be named and shamed by the writing community at large.
> 
> If this site did try to swipe those stories I suspect I could put in a few words to the right people and carbon media would suddenly find themselves ... surprised ... by the response they'd get. :happy2: Writers look out for their own.


Class action. People with class take action. Upset people enough and hounds can get released pretty fast. I'd be happy to assist and join any group action. Anybody else?


----------



## Vernitta

I don't think Carbon Media is trying to be shady necessarily. This is just what they do. Although, it sure sounds shady to me. If you go to their website CarbonMedia.com and look under Products you will see that this is what they do.

"With over 24 million social connections, we can integrate your brand into relevant conversations to reach this targeted audience."

"Carbon Media Group is turning the outdoor enthusiast&#8217;s online experience into a never-ending feed of information and entertainment. Your content is delivered to enthusiasts when they are most engaged and receptive to your messaging. CMG will distribute custom created content or your existing content seamlessly into our network of sites with or without overt branding to build awareness among your target audience."

In that one thread (that got closed) they said they were trying to "generate coverage" for HT. Someone brought up a good point there. Why would HT need help from those tiny forums?


----------



## Melissa

Exactly, we don't need help from other forums, they need us.


----------



## Karen

What grates me is that it had gone on for a while. The owners and Angie down-played it as an "experiment" and setting the wrong "switch". That's what I can't wrap my mind around and why I feel they are not being truthful. If you're going to do an experiment and reset system controls, you do your experiment carefully and _monitor_ the results immediately. Any Tom, Dick or Harry knows that - _*especially*_ someone who owns 500 other forums.

So how is it that it was only discovered as not working correctly only when they got found out? No way was this an error. They didn't error -- they got caught! It was all out unethical and wrong and they knew it. Angie knew it as she was obviously involved from her own comments about it.

What really fries me, is this down-playing it like it's no big deal and we're all a bunch of idiots, just looking for drama, and reading more into it than there is. Well, this is a very big deal! 

It's a big deal because there are multiple parts to it. 


First, the unethical behavior of doing it in the first;
Second, pushing it off and twisting it around to make Willow look like the bad guy originally;
Third, the untruthfulness they are telling;
Fourth, acting like we're the ones who are wrong by questioning it;
Fifth, by being so disingenuous with their apology; and
Sixth, by not answering the members questions and deleting/closing threads.
Yes, Carbon Media and Angie, it _*is*_ a very big deal and a breech of trust and confidents.


----------



## Tiempo

I think they took us for a bunch of uneducated hillbillies. A grave mistake.


----------



## Melissa

Right, no one wants to feel used. This has to be a two-way street. The members have a place to learn and share their homesteading journey and the owners/paid staff get to earn an income from ad revenue or whatever they are earning money from. The owners/staff can't act like the posters don't matter! They do and they deserve respect and they deserve honesty. I wish the moderators would get more respect and honesty too... Instead we deal with the aftermath and the insults to our integrity-which knowing the sites that have sprung up about this place, are flying in full force at this very moment...


----------



## Cygnet

Harry, from some of the things you've said over the years, I suspect you have a very good grasp of the legalities involved. ;-) 

The other issue I see is that the TOS actually says "copyright 2002-2013" but it doesn't have an effective date and I (and I suspect many others) never agreed to it. To even be partially legal, it needs an effective date and users actually need to _agree _to it. They can't just hide it on an obscure page on the site with no effective date and then use that to claim apparently retroactive global rights. Nope. That is not even remotely legal. 



Harry Chickpea said:


> I am currently deciding whether or not to go dark on this site, block it entirely, or go on the offensive. I'm going to explain things in plain English and if there is no IMMEDIATE change and apology, you may not see me here - AND you may see me steer people away from posting, or hear from my attorney.
> 
> Simply put, the current TOS in regard to ownership and authorship has no legal force. The uniform commercial code is very specific that in order for there to be a valid contract BOTH parties to the contract must have a good faith exchange of value. In other words, if you come up to me and tell me how to create a nuclear rocket to get to Mars, and I have previously told you that I own anything you say to me, my claim on your idea is completely and utterly false. As for the words that I write here and elsewhere - they are MY property and not the property of anyone else. I have made it clear that NO moderator in this forum or elsewhere may modify my words in any way. A moderator may delete any post of mine IN ITS ENTIRETY, but that is all. If money is made on ANY writing of mine that is outside of the common good here, rest assured - I AM willing and motivated to sue.
> 
> Secondly - I attend this forum primarily to educate and perform a tithing of knowledge, which I find to be more true to the concept of tithing than that of most churches. As such, the posts of mine are NOT commercial speech and not for resale in any way shape or form.
> 
> Thirdly - By claiming direct ownership of the posts in a forum or publication, ANY media company lays itself open to multiple lawsuits. I have seen any number of racist and hate speech posts on the various forums here, and even though they have been redacted or deleted, they have been out in the public view. It is in no way a stretch to suggest that the NAACP, ACLU, Jewish Defense League or other organization might collect and file all such posts, and then once a sufficient number had been accumulated, bring suit and file for multiple damages. Claiming ownership of unvetted screeds on a public forum has got to be one of the dumbest, stupidist, most idiotic and insane forms of greed that I have ever run across. There is a reason why every sane media company has a disclaimer "the views expressed are not the views of blah blah blah company, etc. etc. "
> 
> Honestly, after my initial gut response of a breach of trust, my more considered one is that only an immediate apology to all and change of the TOS and policy is sufficient to prevent any one of us, or any affected outsider from placing suit.
> 
> I await the apology thread and notice.


----------



## MJsLady

Melissa, I am curious. How much control do you really have in this forum (Countryside Families)
Can't carbon media do as they please here too? They own it don't they?

What is to stop them from deleting or editing this thread as they have done others?


----------



## Bret

Wendy said:


> OK, if everyone pms me your address I will send you each a complimentary cinnamon roll.


May I just tape a note to a rock and toss it to you?


----------



## Melissa

I was asked to delete it as soon as I posted it, but I said that I would not. *If it is closed or deleted, I will no longer be here.* I don't know how much sway that has, but I believe I have pretty good following and a good reputation and the family board has a high number of posts/posters. Technically, yes they own everything here. BUT they don't own our thoughts or our ability to begin again if we need to. 

When Chuck was here, I had complete control over this board. After he left, I have sometimes had to fight to keep complete control, but generally no one has bothered me. 

I am aiming for complete honesty here.


----------



## MJsLady

Thank you for an honest answer. 
You have my support and if they do mess with you, my plans for a vacation will become more... permanent.


----------



## Wind in Her Hair

Melissa said:


> I was asked to delete it as soon as I posted it, but I said that I would not. *If it is closed or deleted, I will no longer be here......*.


Good for you! That is exactly what happened with Cabin Fever. When he posted - for the whole world to see - certain inconsistencies in moderation and administrative decisions - his words were deleted rather than be discussed. So, he left. This censure was handed down to him, a moderator who gave over 10 years of service to HT. It&#8217;s been a year and a half now.


----------



## clovis

Melissa,

I think that the old adage "Build it, and the world will follow" very much applies to you.

Think about it, friend.


----------



## Melissa

I honestly break out into a rash when I have to figure out technical stuff...


----------



## Cygnet

Harry Chickpea said:


> Class action. People with class take action. Upset people enough and hounds can get released pretty fast. I'd be happy to assist and join any group action. Anybody else?


Oh, I'm in. 

So far, to my knowledge, they haven't touched the fiction. If they did/do, I'd drop a line to a few notoriously snarky bloggers, then get out the popcorn. Someone might want to do a google search for key phrases in fiction on the site just to see what turns up, just in case. 

There is a solid market for eBooks these days, so I can see fiction being seen as a commodity. 

We could wake up one morning to find a banner across the site: 

"Buy our Kindle anthology of Homesteadingtoday fiction! Just $4.99!" 

The TOS is written in a way that claims the right for them to do that, with absolutely no compensation to the writers. They could even significantly edit the fiction ... a user could write a G-rated novella and based on the rights they are claiming Carbon Media could then publish something akin to 50 Shades of Grey With Farmers, attributing it to that writer. Or _not _attributing it to the writer. 

I'm more disturbed by the idea of 'not my words, my name' than 'my words, someone else's name' -- I've dealt with plagiarism before, and I'm sure I will again. Attaching my name to something they've changed without my permission is potentially a lot more harmful. 

(Editors edit fiction, of course, but if the publisher wants changes, they'll send it back to the the author, and the author generally makes the changes. Alternately, the editor sends edited story back for approval. Few, if any, legitimate editors would make anything but minor grammatical corrections without the approval of the author, however. And any reputable publisher will not say, "Mine!" the moment they see an article submitted, then publish it without any compensation, and do so after making any changes they want, and with the author's name attached. Or without the author's name, as the case may be.) 

They don't actually _have _those rights, but they're trying to claim them with that TOS.


----------



## Tiempo

Melissa said:


> I honestly break out into a rash when I have to figure out technical stuff...


So do I, so I'm not that person, but I'm sure someone loyal here with the skills wold be more than willing to help you.


----------



## kasilofhome

Cabin fever I did know what happened.... he was really missed and appreciated. Sorry he got impacted....hurt because he was honorable.

I am trying to absorb all this...


----------



## Wendy

> May I just tape a note to a rock and toss it to you?


Just don't break a window!


----------



## Wendy

I do miss Cabin Fever


----------



## Rick

Wendy said:


> OK, if everyone pms me your address I will send you each a complimentary cinnamon roll.


I will send my address but only in code.

My state I share with my name 

for the number of my residence:

subtract 200 from the time CMGSteve posted post 160 on Alice, I mean Willow's "why are my posts " thread.......


----------



## Bret

Melissa said:


> I honestly break out into a rash when I have to figure out technical stuff...


No one is asking you to make a rash decision. Is that being technical?


----------



## Melissa

I'm already itching...


----------



## Molly Mckee

Melissa, I'm not very knowledgeable about online forums, but there are lots of people who are. A big forum can bring in lots of money over the long run and I'm sure there are people that would help you.........


----------



## Melissa

I know it is easy to say to start a forum. But there is all this behind the scenes stuff, approving members and dealing with the spammers and viruses and who knows what. I really, truly love this part- just posting, talking, a little moderating, guiding, etc... I don't want to know what goes on in the backroom! One time Chuck had given me admin powers and I just about wiped out the entire archives of the site. Luckily I asked him before I hit a certain button or it would have all been gone. After that I did not prune! lol

Seriously, I hope this can be worked out. If it isn't, someone else will have to build a forum and I will moderate it for you. You can have the money, I don't care about that.


----------



## MJsLady

proboards are free and easy...
I began there and still maintain a board there. To you know test things...


----------



## Cygnet

There's actually not a lot of money in running a forum. Forums are expensive to host -- one this size is likely running on its own server, or server(s), and you'd want a reliable host. A good host isn't cheap. Plus a good forum app is not cheap. What you bring in from advertising is pocket change. 

Melissa is a great moderator -- and a good mod is _very _hard to find. It takes more people skills, and a certain _kind _of people skills, than many people have. 

I don't mind the tech end of stuff, but the thought of running a forum again dang near gives _me _a panic attack. 



Melissa said:


> I know it is easy to say to start a forum. But there is all this behind the scenes stuff, approving members and dealing with the spammers and viruses and who knows what. I really, truly love this part- just posting, talking, a little moderating, guiding, etc... I don't want to know what goes on in the backroom! One time Chuck had given me admin powers and I just about wiped out the entire archives of the site. Luckily I asked him before I hit a certain button or it would have all been gone. After that I did not prune! lol
> 
> Seriously, I hope this can be worked out. If it isn't, someone else will have to build a forum and I will moderate it for you. You can have the money, I don't care about that.


----------



## Melissa

MJsLady said:


> proboards are free and easy...
> I began there and still maintain a board there. To you know test things...


I actually have one if I remember the log-in. We used to use it as a back up board when this place would go down.

http://melissanorris.proboards.com/


----------



## clovis

I have two separate Facebook groups, and am blessed to have outstanding growth and a wonderful membership base that make the groups successful.

With that said, I spend a great deal of time modding and admining. On the outside, it all looks grand, but in reality, I spend my time admining....and all that I ever wanted to do was have some like minded folks to talk about the Air War over Europe during WWII, LOL.


----------



## claytonpiano

Melissa, it really bothers me that they asked you to take this thread down. You have been so faithful. I am thoroughly disgusted with what has occurred and am trying to decide what I will do now. After being here for so long and enjoying so many of the posts and learning so much.......now....well, so disappointed.


----------



## okiemom

what is the safe word where is the safe house? where do we go if there is a split???? I remember almost having panic attacks and truly grieving when I thought the boards were not going to make it in early 2000's. 

I have always enjoyed your forum and thought you did a great job of trying to be fair and keeping the nice going. There are others as well that need a shout out. I would hate to see this party end. there are way too many good and like minded people and I really don't want to think about never reading what others are up too if they leave. We have too many already.


----------



## Cygnet

MJsLady said:


> proboards are free and easy...
> I began there and still maintain a board there. To you know test things...


Some common problem with most free forum sites is that they claim some or all rights the content, or they have dubious infrastructure, or they have a business model that will cost you lots of $ once the site gets popular due to bandwidth limits. You may also have little to no control over advertising. I haven't looked at proboards recently, so these are just general observations. 

Plus a free forum site could be purchased by a competing host, who could promptly change the rules, the design, or delete the boards entirely. They could also just shut down unexpectedly. This sort of thing _has happened_. Their design, features, and policies may look great today, but you have no control over what they'll do in the future. 

To do a large forum right, you really want to do it on server space you're paying money for (and have complete control over), with an app you've purchased, and with people you trust. Running it as a nonprofit, with financial information available to the users, isn't a bad idea. 

If you run it as a nonprofit, with clear disclosure of the finances to the users, users will be a lot more likely to contribute money for the running of the site. That's really the best way to run a forum like this.


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## okiemom

non profit with full disclosure. nice.


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## Melissa

Like I said, this has been my back-up board since 2008. The old posts are all deleted, since they were not anything overly important, mostly just talking about this site being down. After 10 tries I figured out my password! And it appears to be operational. Just in case this board would happen to have issues.

http://melissanorris.proboards.com/



okiemom said:


> what is the safe word where is the safe house? where do we go if there is a split???? I remember almost having panic attacks and truly grieving when I thought the boards were not going to make it in early 2000's.
> 
> I have always enjoyed your forum and thought you did a great job of trying to be fair and keeping the nice going. There are others as well that need a shout out. I would hate to see this party end. there are way too many good and like minded people and I really don't want to think about never reading what others are up too if they leave. We have too many already.


----------



## LearningLife

I wish that I could read the scuttlebutt about HST over on the cattle forum, but I'm not a member, and I'm not going to increase their membership by joining just to see it. I'm very disappointed in the whole mess. Legality aside, it is never right to take someone else's words or ideas and present them as your own. I don't buy the "Ooops, we goofed" excuse any more from site owners than I do from my own students. They knew it was wrong, and continued it anyway. My teen students do a better job of coming up with cover stories than they have.


----------



## Fennick

Melissa said:


> Like I said, this has been my* back-up board* since 2008. The old posts are all deleted, since they were not anything overly important, mostly just talking about this site being down. After 10 tries I figured out my password! And it appears to be operational. Just in case this board would happen to have issues.
> 
> *http://melissanorris.proboards.com/*


Thanks for the link Melissa. I'm glad you have a back-up board. Added to favourites list.


----------



## wr

Melissa said:


> It will be cached?


As well as being cached, it is my understanding, there are screen shots of these threads.


----------



## Solar Geek

Melissa thanks for posting the backup site.
Clovis, if you could name your FB sites that would also help us newer members if this site should go dark or just change as it has.

I was part of survivaltopics.com when the owner, Ron Fontaine, took it down with no notice to mods or admins. About 4000 of us were left scratching our heads. Luckily, I and a few others had saved a really old (and unfortunately out of date) email list for at least those members who chose to participate in it. We contacted a few, others found us and a small but really great group is still together on Proboards. 

Having been through this mess about 2 years ago my advice is

1. go back and copy and save as documents in Word or just print out any valuable posts you or others have made that are important to you.

2. get your friends' here email addresses. That was the single saving grace for ST.

3. ask your buddies on here to let you know other forums they are on in case you can't find them. 

EVEN WITH VICKER GIVING HIS COMPLETE NAME, FB gave me a real hard time finding him. 
And, when 'pretty paisley' was banned here and I did try to find her on other boards as I liked her info and point of view. This is terribly time consuming and since we now know we could be banned or sent out into the dark----PREPARE.

I too am aghast at what they have done.


----------



## vicker

For the record, I can no longer edit that post, my Facebook does not use my middle initial, but my middle name, Randall.


----------



## Wanda

I find it very ironic that the cattle and pigs forum are the ones that had the posts ''lifted'' off site, but have no mention of this controversy! Is it just a coincidence that both forums are co-moderated by the same individual?


----------



## chickenista

This is my home.
I have been here for years.
I have met dear, dear friends here.
I see you guys every single day.
Though I may not post on every thread, I am paying attention.
New grandbabies, new lambs, new chicks, the passing of old dogs and the latest knitted wonder.

I noticed a change in the atmosphere when Chuck left,
then a GREATER change when it went corporate.
The types of threads changed, the responses changed, the bannings began.

But I am still here and I hope that HT will be too.


----------



## DaleK

Any posts other than way down in admin and here in cf are removed Wanda. Doesn't matter which section


----------



## DaleK

LearningLife said:


> I wish that I could read the scuttlebutt about HST over on the cattle forum, but I'm not a member, and I'm not going to increase their membership by joining just to see it. I'm very disappointed in the whole mess. Legality aside, it is never right to take someone else's words or ideas and present them as your own. I don't buy the "Ooops, we goofed" excuse any more from site owners than I do from my own students. They knew it was wrong, and continued it anyway. My teen students do a better job of coming up with cover stories than they have.


New users can't read anything about it over there anyway, it's only posted on the restricted access section. Not sure if it's restricted by number of posts, time or what


----------



## Wanda

DaleK said:


> Any posts other than way down in admin and here in cf are removed Wanda. Doesn't matter which section





All of those forums seem to have a co-moderator in common.


----------



## vicker

Wanda said:


> All of those forums seem to have a co-moderator in common.



I don't suppose you'd hazard to guess who that might be?


----------



## CajunSunshine

Reading this thread and others like it makes me feel like I need to take a shower...with bleach.

The explanations offered by the site owner's representative are highly insulting to anyone with more than two brain cells. 

Insult to injury does not even begin to describe the....(for once in my life, I am at a loss for words)...deep breath...

Carbon-Gate.

I just feel bad that our community has been violated so deeply that many of us no longer feel at home here.



.


----------



## DAVID In Wisconsin

Glad to find one place safe from the hands of Carbon Media! Thanks Melissa! I have your other site bookmarked just in case. If you ever do a new site, sign me up and I will pay for the privilege. My $12 fee is due to Carbon now but I think I will just let Alice pay it. I still cannot believe what these people did! I sent messages to "Steve" and Angie this morning telling them how disappointed I am and let down. No matter how they try to paint it, this was underhanded and low. They claim 24,000,000 unique visitors on their website but I would imagine they count people with multiple personalities several times. LOL.


----------



## Raeven

This is probably a waste of time, but for the sake of the many for whom I care hereâ¦

There are really only two questions that need to be answered. The first one is easy. The second one, well, weâll have to see.

First, what *specific* steps will the siteâs management take to change things, if any?

Second, can trust be restored such that the forum members will be able to move on from what has happened?

I think most members agree that the response up to now is wholly inadequate and perhaps even counterproductive to making things better. The obfuscation, the blame game, the censorshipâ¦ none of these things has helped and they will not help. This is an independent-minded community. Itâs what made the community come together in the first place. The members here have and will continue to vote with their feet if immediate proactive steps are not taken by the site owners and administrator to change them.

Let us be honest here, for a change: Up to now, there has barely been any acknowledgment of the problems, let alone any action taken to fix them. In fact, active suppression is the primary response to anyone raising concerns. So why was Carbon Media trying to drive up site traffic in the first place? If, as they claim, it was their intent to drive more traffic to HT, why had that become necessary? 

I think itâs well known among regular members that the problems began well before this kludge unfolded. A lot of posters had already stopped posting, either because they had been banned or they were troubled to see where things were heading. No oneâs concerns were listened to in any serious way. New memberships waned. Many new members never post, or their contributions are very limited.

And now this sleazy mess.

What does it take for you manager/administrator folks to understand that what youâre doing isnât working?

I suggest the following changes:

1) Immediately stop attributing any content to anyone or anything other than the authentic authors of that content.

2) Apologize *without equivocation* for doing what you did, and stop trying to pretend it was an âaccident.â You all lied, you kept lying and no one is buying it. So just stop.

3) State clearly what changes will be made, if any, as to how content will be treated going forward. Then stick to it. If a change is made, make sure the members know what it is, so they can either consent or not consent as they choose.

4) Stop blaming the members for the problems or for getting upset over obvious unethical practices. Within this context, I further suggest you consider shaking up your administrative team. Maybe create a team instead of allowing a dictatorship. Youâve got some great moderators. Use them to good, honest advantage. Disparate points of view are healthy. People donât need to think in lockstep.

5) Become far more transparent. It didnât sit well with many that when this site was sold to CMG in July, no announcement was even made about that. In the same vein, when âexperimentsâ are going to be made with usersâ content, obtain their consent and/or cooperation before you do it. Don't just apologize for misuse after the fact. Or at the very least, make it an open exercise.

I know others have ideas about what can be done as well. But you gotta start somewhere, if restoring this site to any meaningful purpose is even a goal. If you manage to do that, the profits will come. Maybe it isnât worth saving, at this pointâ¦ but for sure it isnât, if nothing is going to change.


----------



## Denna

Not sure if anyone around here will remember me or not. I haven't been around in quite awhile. Found my way back here today and find this thread. I have to say that I am extremely upset by this and will most likely not be rejoining the "family" I have been missing since it apparently no longer exists. I have heard several mention starting over somewhere. Melissa I have the ability to host a new forum if you are interested. I can have it up and ready for member registration very quickly. Just let me know.


----------



## Veronica

Though I don't post all that much, I read and learn from many of the posts, and feel like I know many of you. What has happened with the mining of info reminds me too much of facebook, and why I don't post much on there. Hope things can get resolved here as this is just a shame. I remember early on with the internet it was so wonderful to connect with like minded folks. Now it seems like so much has become a quest for companies to grab our info and try to sell
junk to us. Sad really.


----------



## vicker




----------



## Atoman

What I would like to know is why my posts were deleted. I went into the pig section and notified each OP that their OP had been copied under the name PinkPiggy in pigforum.com. 

What did I do wrong? Why should they not be notified? Why won't HT mgmt answer my questions? 

Sorry Melissa, I don't mean to be yelling at you, but all my other posts on this topic have been deleted.


----------



## Jan in CO

STOP!!! My computer is slow and old and I'm only up to page 8 of this!! I cannot imagine what I was thinking that the owners of this site would be honerable and honest and like the rest of us! Holy cow. To be frank, I've seen post from HT show up when I've googled different things for the past year and didn't think much of it. I can't think of exact specifics right now, but at the time, just thought in my mind that 'yes, things on the internet are out there for all to see' and went on. I'm trying to read all the posts in between feeding my Mama her dinner and getting the ggd fed. Slow down folks, until I catch up  Melissa, I am with the others who would follow you if you leave and go to another site. You are one we've always been able to trust and I thank you for all the work you have put in here!

Back to page 8.


----------



## okiemom

Their mission statement and ours is currently completely and maybe always be incompatible.


----------



## Melissa

Here is the _official _response:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/countryside-families/announcement-apology.html


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

They did post an appology, a rather blanket statement, but it is there if you haven't seen it yet.


----------



## Dixie Bee Acres

Melissa beat me to it.


----------



## Wendy

Not sure how I actually feel about that. Are we to trust that he is actually resigning?


----------



## DaleK

Colour me underwhelmed


----------



## Rick

Wind in Her Hair said:


> Good for you! That is exactly what happened with Cabin Fever. When he posted - for the whole world to see - certain inconsistencies in moderation and administrative decisions - his words were deleted rather than be discussed. So, he left. This censure was handed down to him, a moderator who gave over 10 years of service to HT. Itâs been a year and a half now.


I knew that had to be why he left us, I refused to ask you or message him on FB, but I sure wanted to know!!

I miss celebrating your Birthdays!


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## Guest

So, we're back to the standard bullying again? And why did CMGSteve change his username to the older HST admin? Way too much BS. Do we look that stupid?


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## JeffreyD

CMG Steve needs to resign from CMG, not just HST. He's trying to cover his posterior, hoping it all just blow over. I called them and pitched a fit about the ethical and legal ramifications of these actions. We'll see what happens.

Melissa.....YOU ROCK!!!!!....THANK YOU!!!


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## Belfrybat

I don't think anyone can ask for more than that apology. Yes, a bit late, but at least it seems to me to be an honest apology. Plus "Steve" is resigning from any oversight of this particular forum. 

As to the needed changes to the TOS, I don't think you should hold your breath. That apparently has been in place for several years. 

As for me, I'm staying around, but voting with my dollars as I won't renew my supporting membership. I became a supporting member when the site was owned by the two guys from San Marcos, TX. They seemed to want to continue the ethos of HT. I wish I'd known the site had been sold to a corporation as I wouldn't have renewed my membership last year. But now I know I won't renew this year.


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## Melissa

Wendy said:


> Not sure how I actually feel about that. Are we to trust that he is actually resigning?


 Says only from this site.


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## Dixie Bee Acres

Wendy said:


> Not sure how I actually feel about that. Are we to trust that he is actually resigning?


My thoughts exactly, Wendy. We hardly ever saw his presence here before, so how would we know now if he was still lurking in the shadows and pulling strings from behind a curtain.
Furthermore, though I don't really think this was Angies doings, I do, honestly believe she knew about it and went along with it. A betrayal of all our trust.


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## Belfrybat

zong said:


> So, we're back to the standard bullying again? And why did CMGSteve change his username to the older HST admin? Way too much BS. Do we look that stupid?


As I remember, any global announcements that appear on all sub-forums come from that username.


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## Tiempo

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> My thoughts exactly, Wendy. We hardly ever saw his presence here before, so how would we know now if he was still lurking in the shadows and pulling strings from behind a curtain.
> Furthermore, though I don't really think this was Angies doings, I do, honestly believe she knew about it and went along with it. A betrayal of all our trust.


Or who he actually IS?? He could be Angie for all we know. Lame, lame, lame.


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## sidepasser

This is interesting..is it Stone Cold Steve Austin as HSTADMN?

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ad...pport/518066-who-owns-ht-now.html#post7117329

Old 06/17/14, 08:52 AM
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HSTAdmin HSTAdmin is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 504
I'm Austin. 

My change in name should in no way change your ability to contact me.
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Tiempo likes this.
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#8 Report Post 
Old 06/17/14, 11:05 AM
Tiempo's Avatar	
Tiempo Tiempo is online now

Join Date: May 2008
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Posts: 11,125
Thank you for clarifying who we are contacting Austin.
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__________________

I feel like this whole thing is a "dances with ghosts" sort of thing..


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## Rick

Melissa said:


> Here is the _official _response:
> 
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/countryside-families/announcement-apology.html


So a quick edit and CMGEve takes over.

Right.


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## RichNC

Interesting that Steve writes all backward just like Angie when she is upset or seems to be in a hurry, just my 2 cents take it or leave it, but to me that reads a whole lot like something Angie would have written herself.


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## Tiempo

What a joke.


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## MO_cows

Well the apology announcement is the best response so far. Came a little late, cost the site and all of us some good contributors I'm afraid. There are gonna be some big shoes left to fill. (Not that I'm saying you have big feet, Willowgirl, in case you do come back and read this!)

Angie was put in an extremely bad position, and the volunteer mods were left looking like boobs because they didn't know what was going on. 

Hopefully something has been learned here! Sometimes the techno-geeks are just too smart for their own good. It's not always about what you CAN do but what you SHOULD do. 

The dark humor side of me, pities the next "Alice" who joins. lol


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## Terri

Wendy said:


> Not sure how I actually feel about that. Are we to trust that he is actually resigning?


If I am reading it correctly, he is stepping down from being HT Admin. In the future we will be dealing with someone else from the company.


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## Harry Chickpea

I was awaiting that apology. Now I am waiting for the modification to the TOS that should prevent further abuses.


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## wr

Terri said:


> If I am reading it correctly, he is stepping down from being HT Admin. In the future we will be dealing with someone else from the company.



We don't deal with anybody from the corporation and until this blew up so he really offered up nothing. 

Angie has lost credibility and he's left us to mop up the mess.


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## Cygnet

Harry Chickpea said:


> I was awaiting that apology. Now I am waiting for the modification to the TOS that should prevent further abuses.


This.

I don't care if the admin resigns or not. He's just an employee. And for all we know he could just change his handle. New sock, same puppet master. 

The TOS needs to be changed. This shows that the company that owns the site actually understands the mistakes they made and do not intend to do so again. If they leave the TOS the way it is, they're not actually changing anything. 

I do understand changing a TOS can take a few days. Gotta run it by legal and all that. 

I'm waiting. I'm forgiving of mistakes but if they don't change the TOS now that the problem's been brought to their attention, that shows they ARE actually making a malicious rights grab.


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## vicker

I waited for that poor excuse of an apology. Sad to go, but go I must.


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## Wanda

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> My thoughts exactly, Wendy. We hardly ever saw his presence here before, so how would we know now if he was still lurking in the shadows and pulling strings from behind a curtain.
> Furthermore, though I don't really think this was Angies doings, I do, honestly believe she knew about it and went along with it. A betrayal of all our trust.




The silence on Angies part is very bothersome to me. She has been here a long time and has never been ashamed to say she always did her part for the forum. Well she did her part in this and I think she is one that should be offering up an apology! I thought it was extremely poor form for trying to shift the focus to the person that exposed the problem.


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## RichNC

Terri said:


> If I am reading it correctly, he is stepping down from being HT Admin. In the future we will be dealing with someone else from the company.


When hasn't anyone since CMG took over seen an Admin named CMGSteve post, until this happened. Angie posted under other names, and admitted on those forums, the bicycle one for sure, so why could she not be doing the same thing here???


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## Tiempo

Everything is being put on someone completely anonymous, it's an utterly worthless gesture.


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## puddlejumper007

so all the complaints i have said about obama is out there....so now i am standing with a shot gun watching for drones.....


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## painterswife

How long before the bannings start?


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## partndn

That apology announcement is a step, but not near enough.

EXCEPT for this thread (thank you Melissa, and also Marchwind in the FA), mods have been told to lock threads on the issue in their forum, and direct everyone to the admin section.

The only thread left open there has not had a response since post #11, and it's up to 75 posts just a minute ago. Tons of questions have been ignored after posting in the section users were directed to.

I'd like the apology to be followed by a Carbon executive, using their name and position, to address people's concerns with changing the tos, etc. 

And frankly, I think they should acknowledge the frustration users have had since all the ads began pelting the pages. As part of the large number of "reachable" web users they claim to be in their total ability to market clients to, they should realize when too much makes you go backwards.


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## Dixie Bee Acres

Wlover said:


> How long before the bannings start?


I'm sure there is a list started. If not done now, I'm sure Angie is watching many of our every moves just waiting for the first opportunity to strike.


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## Melissa

No one should be banned for having a discussion.


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## Tiempo

Angie has lost all credibility due to her actions after the discovery. I think a good solution would be to remove Angie from all admin and moderating on HT on all but her own SE&P forum. 

She would still have her sub forum and a job with Carbon Media, they have enough sites to keep her employed full time..I certainly don't wish unemployment on her, but I think it's untenable to have her still basically in control of HT at this point.


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## JeffreyD

Dixie Bee Acres said:


> I'm sure there is a list started. If not done now, I'm sure Angie is watching many of our every moves just waiting for the first opportunity to strike.


I called their headquarters and told them in no uncertain terms how i felt about this mess. Think i'm on a list?


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## JeffreyD

Tiempo said:


> Angie has lost all credibility due to her actions after the discovery. I think a good solution would be to remove Angie from all admin and moderating on HT from all but her own SE&P forum.
> 
> She would still have her sub forum and a job with Carbon Media, they have enough sites to keep her employed full time..I certainly don't wish unemployment on her, but I think it's untenable to have her still basically in control of HT at this point.


You know, i think that at least for me, the betrayal i feel from Angie is the worst part.


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## ksfarmer

Wlover said:


> How long before the bannings start?


Kind of makes me wonder about why some of the bannings of the past occurred.


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## Woodpecker

All of a sudden this forum has lost its neighborly help and friendly advice. what a shame.


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## Dixie Bee Acres

Woodpecker said:


> All of a sudden this forum has lost its neighborly help and friendly advice. what a shame.


This place hasn't.....
http://melissanorris.proboards.com/board/1/general-board


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## sidepasser

Did anyone go to HSTADMN and go to the question regarding who is this? Answer was my name is Austin. So is it Steve or is it Austin?


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## sidepasser

See my post on this thread #204.


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## unregistered41671

sidepasser said:


> See my post on this thread #204.


I clicked on his posts and went back to 2012. Looks like you are correct.


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## mnn2501

Apparently if you post something here, not just a homesteading type post but also an original work of fiction, you grant the owners the right to use it in anyway they want to.
That's not the way to do business. The owners need to issue an apology and stop this practice and change the Terms of Service for this board.


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## stef

Melissa said:


> Like I said, this has been my back-up board since 2008. The old posts are all deleted, since they were not anything overly important, mostly just talking about this site being down. After 10 tries I figured out my password! And it appears to be operational. Just in case this board would happen to have issues.
> 
> http://melissanorris.proboards.com/


I added this link to my 'favorites' column...just in case. * *


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## RichNC

partndn said:


> I'd like the apology to be followed by a Carbon executive, using their name and position, to address people's concerns with changing the tos, etc.


Not me, I want the real Angie, not Steve to come out and admit what SHE did, she works for CMG now, has since the buy out, and as head Admin of this forum SHE and only she should be on here answering these questions, not some fake talking head from CMG who has only posted FOUR TIMES!!


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## Gray Wolf

The things you learn about forums...
Interesting. 
Sad.
$$$


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## vicker

And, was she not the moderator of the forums where the plagiarized threads were posted?


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## Pony

Cygnet said:


> Harry, from some of the things you've said over the years, I suspect you have a very good grasp of the legalities involved. ;-)
> 
> The other issue I see is that the TOS actually says "copyright 2002-2013" but it doesn't have an effective date and I (and I suspect many others) never agreed to it. To even be partially legal, it needs an effective date and users actually need to _agree _to it. They can't just hide it on an obscure page on the site with no effective date and then use that to claim apparently retroactive global rights. Nope. That is not even remotely legal.


You're right. 

I never clicked an EULA that said "I agree." I remember those, because I keep track of them. Text docs don't take a lot of HD space.

I'd be down with a lawsuit. We had a really nice thing here, and Carbon screwed it up - and screwed us over.

Not a wise move on their part. If they think this is the only social medium to which we all subscribe, they are incredibly naive -as they obviously thought we are.

Bad move.


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## willow_girl

> And, was she not the moderator of the forums where the plagiarized threads were posted?


Yes, she was.
This has Angie's fingerprints all over it.


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## Selena

Wind in Her Hair said:


> Good for you! That is exactly what happened with Cabin Fever. When he posted - for the whole world to see - certain inconsistencies in moderation and administrative decisions - his words were deleted rather than be discussed. So, he left. This censure was handed down to him, a moderator who gave over 10 years of service to HT. Itâs been a year and a half now.


I suspected something had occurred, aka not drinking the kool-ade.


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## Woodpecker

JeffreyD said:


> You know, i think that at least for me, the betrayal i feel from Angie is the worst part.


Me too.


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## Selena

In today's world, a class action suit will garner publicity but we'd have the door slammed shut. Either in federal Court of Appeals (depending on the jurisdiction, aka where filed) or SCOTUS. A better tact might be to take our ball and go find a new playground supervised by adults. 

As to the TOS - corporate america loves negative opt-out. Does anyone remember seeing words to the effect that continuing use of this forum means you agree with the current TOS? I remember that after a SCOTUS ruling on binding arbitration, a number of companies of which I had online access had a new (and very long) TOS. Which, once I read through it all, stated I agreed to binding arbitration in the event of a dispute (to paraphrase). I suspect this is where we all got snookered.

My parents also received a request for "updated information" from one of their investment firms. Again, in the fine print, signing meant agreeing to binding arbitration. Company made it appear that the request was "required by law", it wasn't. I told my folks it was not required. The company was not happy when called out on their deceptive attempt.


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## Harry Chickpea

Cygnet said:


> This.
> 
> I don't care if the admin resigns or not. He's just an employee. And for all we know he could just change his handle. New sock, same puppet master.
> 
> The TOS needs to be changed. This shows that the company that owns the site actually understands the mistakes they made and do not intend to do so again. If they leave the TOS the way it is, they're not actually changing anything.
> 
> I do understand changing a TOS can take a few days. Gotta run it by legal and all that.
> 
> I'm waiting. I'm forgiving of mistakes but if they don't change the TOS now that the problem's been brought to their attention, that shows they ARE actually making a malicious rights grab.


I am somewhat of the same mind, but having been in corporate meetings and having my own business my focus is a bit different. I am looking at what changes can be made now to repair damage and make the way forward better. I speak to the owners now. The value of the business, like any business, is in the product, the structure, and what is legally known as "good will." Good will is defined as customer base and customer loyalty on a quantified basis.

What has been lost in the horrendous mis-steps is partly in product - many of the real contributors have been driven off because as outspoken people they have tended to speak out. THAT MEANS THE SALABLE PRODUCT IS DRYING UP and the old stock is driving a lot of any outside interest. In order for the place to survive, the driving off of knowledge and intelligence not only needs to stop, but in some cases be reversed. Because participants have been banned from discussions, the impression of bannings is that those who don't please powers that be get brought to a star chamber for summary judgment. Even criminal cases in the U.S. are tried in open court and the cases are available after the trial is over. Unless national security is at stake, it is hard to reconcile a Soviet era secret tribunal and execution of members of a forum.

What also has been lost is in good will - I'm NOT talking about the feelings of the regular posters, but of people doing searches and finding their way here, people who were being recommended to the site, and those people who make an introductory post and have obvious interest but who then mysteriously disappear off the face of the earth. THOSE are the good-will - not the robots from China or other statistics that provide a false picture.

By pruning the people who were the most fruit bearing branches of ideas and discussion there is no reason for people to come around, much less click on ads. By attempting to clone posts with different 'nyms as authors, a LOT of us are considering if it is in our own best interest to post anything other than chats about the weather.

I could easily re-write a draft of the TOS that would serve both site owners and participants. It isn't all that hard when one looks at the needs objectively. I'm frankly unsure if it would be enough though unless there is some outside neutral oversight. A *lot* of damage has been done, possibly enough to be insurmountable, and strong measures are needed to correct the errors and problems.


----------



## wr

sidepasser said:


> Did anyone go to HSTADMN and go to the question regarding who is this? Answer was my name is Austin. So is it Steve or is it Austin?



As HT has been bought and sold over time, bits and pieces of past owners have been left behind. Steve and Austin were our previous owners and they were supposed to stay on and make the transition a smooth one. 

I'm not sure if they cut and ran or if they were pushed out but all that seems to be left is a link that likely goes nowhere. 

Something that has not been said until a member contacted the help desk is that 'Steve' gets a commission on advertising revenue so he did actually plagiarized in order to line his own pockets and not to just help another struggling board get a start.


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## Tiempo

Is "Steve" Angie?


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## ksfarmer

Harry Chickpea said:


> I am somewhat of the same mind, but having been in corporate meetings and having my own business my focus is a bit different. I am looking at what changes can be made now to repair damage and make the way forward better. I speak to the owners now. The value of the business, like any business, is in the product, the structure, and what is legally known as "good will." Good will is defined as customer base and customer loyalty on a quantified basis.
> 
> What has been lost in the horrendous mis-steps is partly in product - many of the real contributors have been driven off because as outspoken people they have tended to speak out. THAT MEANS THE SALABLE PRODUCT IS DRYING UP and the old stock is driving a lot of any outside interest. In order for the place to survive, the driving off of knowledge and intelligence not only needs to stop, but in some cases be reversed. Because participants have been banned from discussions, the impression of bannings is that those who don't please powers that be get brought to a star chamber for summary judgment. Even criminal cases in the U.S. are tried in open court and the cases are available after the trial is over. Unless national security is at stake, it is hard to reconcile a Soviet era secret tribunal and execution of members of a forum.
> 
> What also has been lost is in good will - I'm NOT talking about the feelings of the regular posters, but of people doing searches and finding their way here, people who were being recommended to the site, and those people who make an introductory post and have obvious interest but who then mysteriously disappear off the face of the earth. THOSE are the good-will - not the robots from China or other statistics that provide a false picture.
> 
> By pruning the people who were the most fruit bearing branches of ideas and discussion there is no reason for people to come around, much less click on ads. By attempting to clone posts with different 'nyms as authors, a LOT of us are considering if it is in our own best interest to post anything other than chats about the weather.
> 
> I could easily re-write a draft of the TOS that would serve both site owners and participants. It isn't all that hard when one looks at the needs objectively. I'm frankly unsure if it would be enough though unless there is some outside neutral oversight. A *lot* of damage has been done, possibly enough to be insurmountable, and strong measures are needed to correct the errors and problems.


:goodjob:

This is worthy of repeating. Very good.


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## mnn2501

jtbrandt said:


> In S&EP there is a fiction section for members to post their own stories. There is some good stuff there for Carbon to steal. I'd caution anyone to reconsider sharing your fiction on HT, but I'm sure it would get deleted if I posted it down there. If you want to share anything, whether it be fiction or a knitting pattern or whatever, you should post it somewhere else and link to it. That way you're not giving ownership rights to Carbon Media.


Thats why on my site it clearly states in my Rules Section "Stories are owned by the author and they retain all rights, this is just a creative outlet for them." 

Thats how this (or any) forum should be run.


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## ksfarmer

Tiempo said:


> Is "Steve" Angie?


Very good question! And, where is Angie? She seems to be missing in action.


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## partndn

I never knew Angie was employed by Carbon. Did y'all see that on the forum here? If it is, I just never saw it.


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## willow_girl

I believe there was a question, several pages back, about how this all started, so perhaps a brief explanation is in order. Numb was looking for a post I'd made on HT about our recent cow rescue. He searched for it in Google, and said, "Oh look, there's someone named Alice who is also working with the Krishnas to rescue cows!" Then he clicked on the link, and said, "Umm... isn't that OUR cow?!" :huh:

This is what he saw, on a forum called www.cattleforum.com:


If you want to see the original page in its entirety, here is a cached version:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.cattleforum.com/showthread.php?t=286

This post was identical to one I'd made in HT's Cattle Forum several weeks ago. At first I thought someone was maliciously impersonating me, but as I looked around the site, I realized a lot of other people's posts were being copied as well -- all posted under the same username, "Alice." Obviously this was happening with the complicity, if not under the direction, of the site admins. 

That's when I posted my question in the admin forum as to what was going on. 

Yesterday, I was furious that someone else was taking credit for a cow rescue that had cost me a lot of proverbial blood, sweat and tears! I was even angrier when I saw that on the other forum, innocent posters were wasting their time responding to these sham threads. I found it infuriating that Carbon Media would treat us this way.

Today, I'm just sad. HT has been a bit part of my life for over a decade. More than 14,000 posts. Heck, I met Numb here! But all that's over now. I won't be posting here anymore, except as it relates to this controversy. 

Anyone who wants to keep in touch (sorry, I don't Facebook) is welcome to visit our forum ... click on my profile, and then on "Visit Willowgirl's homepage," and it will redirect you. Sorry I can't just type the address here, but HT has it blocked out as if it's a swear word. (Classy, huh?) :huh:

Or you're welcome to email me at [email protected]. I'll be participating on Melissa's private forum, too. (Thanks to the person who posted the link.) 

Take care, you guys! I'm going to miss you.


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## vicker

Hey, HSTAmin, why is your, lame apology dated 2/29/2000? Did you copy and paste it from another forum? Do you honestly expect us to be happy being moderated by the same moderator who moderated the sites where the plagiarized threads were posted? 

There is an old witticism that says that one should not defecate where one eats. Well, I'm not defecating where I eat, YOU ARE! You leave me little choice, but to find a new place to eat. 

Can you offer me any reason why I should continue to support my, well, I guess it is your forum now? Anything? Give me something. 

I am leaving but, I'll be back, after your sorry butt is gone.


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## jwal10

Tiempo said:


> Is "Steve" Angie?



More like Alice=Angie, Coincidence, I think not....James


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## Solar Geek

Melissa said:


> No one should be banned for having a discussion.


Melissa I sent you a friend request on FB and my initials are MK when you get it. Thanks!


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## MullersLaneFarm

ksfarmer said:


> And, where is Angie? She seems to be missing in action.


Her last post was 03/23 10:00 AM CST


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## Dutchie

Tiempo said:


> I was banned, then quite a while later let back in at SE&P for disagreeing, not rudely, with another member. I did not have an accumulation of infractions.


Me too. Just for questions.


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## Dutchie

Wendy said:


> I don't know the circumstances. I was referring to a forum wide ban where you can't come back to the board at all. Not a single forum ban. I think sometimes mods feel people need to take a break from a forum & they give them a "time out" to help keep them from getting themselves banned totally. Not saying that was your case, but it does happen.


How old are we? Five?


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## Wendy

It's the be nice rule.


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## Rick

Be nice, and pass the cinnamon rolls, puh_-lease!


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## WoolyBear

The TOS thing bothers me the most. They can lay claim to any recipe/idea/thought/or invention that anyone has posted or floated around for advice about. I do not recall ever pushing a little "accept" button for those terms.
My question is - would someone be able to compose a type of form letter that can be copy and pasted to be sent to congress people, my states attorney general, or other elected persons who may have an interested in possible "underhanded theft" of intellectual property? I have to think that there are a few elected officials (they can be useful sometimes) out there who would not be happy about the goings on listed in TOS.


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## Cindy in NY

willow girl - I registered on your forum. I didn't know I 'd have to do math this early in the morning!!


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## Belfrybat

sidepasser said:


> Did anyone go to HSTADMN and go to the question regarding who is this? Answer was my name is Austin. So is it Steve or is it Austin?


 Austin was one of the past owners -- the one I referenced as being in San Marcos, TX. That is when I became a supporting member. He and his partner sold the site to Carbon Media. Apparently the new owners haven't changed the profile. 

I realize it was too late, but an apology was given. As for Angie, she got caught out as being on the corporate side. Why don't we give her a bit of time to see what happens next? I imagine she's in "recovery" mode. Hopefully she will do the right thing and also apologize.


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## painterswife

This profile using by admins is the norm for Angie. if you look at any of the other forums she is modding for Carbon, she uses the previous admins profile for quite a while before she ever introduces herself ( if she even does).

In the regular scope of things that is not much of a problem. However now we have some big problems and most do not trust the administration of this forum to being doing the right thing.

How do we know that Steve or HSTadmin is not just Angie covering her butt? Angie has been the only boss" here for a while and sorry but there is not much trust in her right now.


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## willow_girl

Cindy in NY said:


> willow girl - I registered on your forum. I didn't know I 'd have to do math this early in the morning!!


ROFL! The security question is just to keep the automated bots out. We were having trouble with them there for awhile.

It did trip up a recent person, though, who apparently had a one-legged duck! ound:

(For the uninitiated, the question --IIRC -- is "How many legs do three cows and a duck have?" and the answer is 14.)


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## unregistered41671

I think "Carbon Media" is a good name for this group. 

They make *carbon* *copies* of posts and re post them, on their other forums.


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## Melissa

In the case of Willow's post that she referenced above, it was made in February on a relatively small forum. I find it a little difficult to believe that the moderator/administrator there did not read it and know what was going on. And according to what I have heard "Alice" even responded to the post. So unless a computer has taken on its own identity and learned to post answers to internet posts, a real person had to be in control of that. This was not an accident or a mistake.


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## arabian knight

Sure glad I popped a big bowl last night this has been hilarious to go through and so overblown and over stated by so many. Been here for years be here for years to come. Just too funny.


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## painterswife

arabian knight said:


> Sure glad I popped a big bowl last night this has been hilarious to go through and so overblown and over stated by so many. Been here for years be here for years to come. Just too funny.


Belittling how other people feel is so helpful. Belittling how respected moderators who do this for free have been treated is crap.


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## MJsLady

AK, I generally agree with you on things but on this, I do not.
Maybe it is because I am a site owner.
Maybe it is because I have seen what a corporate entity does when it takes over a person's personal story.
For what ever reason, this response to what has happened is NOT over blown.
These guys broke the law. They plagiarized at least 1 person. 
To me that is the same as some one walking into my home and rewriting the signatures on my mil's paintings and claiming to be the artist. 

A real true apology has not been forth coming and making light of the issue will not ease the anger or make it disappear. Nothing convincing has been done to indicate this will not happen the next time CM needs to bolster a flagging forum. 

The kicker is, if they had treated folks right and ASKED before then correctly attributed the copied words, none of this would have happened. Such a simple thing they chose not to do.


----------



## willow_girl

> In the case of Willow's post that she referenced above, it was made in February on a relatively small forum. I find it a little difficult to believe that the moderator/administrator there did not read it and know what was going on.


Angie is also the moderator/admin of that relatively small forum. And the moderator/admin of the www.pigforum.com, where posts harvested from HT's pig forum were appearing. 

The thread in question, on the cow rescue, received no replies, but "Alice" was posting on other threads, and appeared to be trying to establish a persona on that site. (We know now that there is no real "Alice," as we've been told it was just a shill account set up by the administration. One of the admins, probably "Angie," was pretending to be "Alice," presumably to boost traffic on the site.)

"Alice's" other posts on the site -- the ones that were not harvested from HT -- have been allowed to stand, so some of the members there (unless they've been told what is going on) may still be unwittingly having conversations with "Alice," and answering her questions.


----------



## Melissa

Every person will have respond differently to an issue. Every person I have explained this to in real life- even those who don't participate in any forums, was completely appalled. There is nothing right about what happened, even if it does provide a bit of entertainment to some.


----------



## Cindy in NY

The whole situation is just sad but it's been on a downward track for a while.

I post birthdays for current and consistent posters in CF and S & EP. It usually makes me sad going through the list of birthdays at the bottom of the page. So many names I recognize that no longer post. So much potential knowledge that we'll no longer get. And the folks that list their birthdays when they sign up are probably only a small percentage of the overall total so the actual total of lost posters is much larger.

I had read on other forums about folks that felt they were mistreated by mods here and at first I thought it was just sour grapes. Then the number of folks that were getting banned just seemed to explode. So sad that some mods can't keep their personal feelings out of it and have their favorites who can do no wrong.

BTW - I had a bad feeling about the new owners from the start. I sent them several PM's asking that the birthday list only list current posters, the way it used to be set up. Not only did they not say they couldn't do that, I got no response at all. I guess they were too busy transferring HT content to their other forums!


----------



## Tiempo

arabian knight said:


> Sure glad I popped a big bowl last night this has been hilarious to go through and so overblown and over stated by so many. Been here for years be here for years to come. Just too funny.


Theft, manipulation, lies, bullying and insults are not my idea of entertainment.


----------



## mzgarden

Just my 2 cents: Turning on each other may be exactly the next step CM is waiting for. If they remain unengaged and in frustration, we begin arguments with each other, we may accomplish for them the idea of wait and let it blow over/blow out. 

I respect everyone's right to their input but for me, I will simply choose to not engage with those I perceive to be 'smacking the bee's nest' to get a reaction.


----------



## sidepasser

I sent Carbon Media Group an email and detailed in it what has occurred here. I will see if they respond. If not, they have a Facebook page, a twitter account, and other means of contact and I will try to get their attention to at least address the concerns here.

Perhaps they will and perhaps not.


----------



## Ardie/WI

Wlover said:


> This profile using by admins is the norm for Angie. if you look at any of the other forums she is modding for Carbon, she uses the previous admins profile for quite a while before she ever introduces herself ( if she even does).
> 
> In the regular scope of things that is not much of a problem. However now we have some big problems and most do not trust the administration of this forum to being doing the right thing.
> 
> How do we know that Steve or HSTadmin is not just Angie covering her butt? Angie has been the only boss" here for a while and sorry but there is not much trust in her right now.


I think that Angies credibility is fecal matter at this point.


----------



## Tiempo

https://www.facebook.com/CarbonMediaGroup


----------



## Melissa

http://www.carbonmedia.com/contact-us/


----------



## Melissa

Personally, I am going to go post on my back-up board until I get this straight in my head. I am extremely disillusioned...


----------



## Belldandy

Wlover said:


> Entire posts got posted under the user names on other forums. The user name was not the user name of the person who originally posted it here.
> 
> For example Willow posted about her cow rescue. They then copied the post and "Alice" posted it on the cattle forum and had a conversation like it was her doing the rescue. Exact same words.


Welcome to the innerwebz. It's been happening for years...anyone can copy/paste.

Do I agree with it? I'm not sure....if someone else owns content, you really have to expect it. Whether I personally like it is another tale.


----------



## soulsurvivor

I'm not saying anything to discount the shady methods being discussed of who did what and why. What I will say is it's nothing new. It's actually old and established behavior for all online discussion forum owners to take full advantage of what their members can do for them. I can say this because of my own personal experience with being a member of online discussion forums since the beginning of the internet. 

For myself, what's happening here or claimed to have been done, is mild soup compared to what I've witnessed online in the past. I was a member of the original nbc.com news discussion forum that had no rules. None. You had to grow fangs to even read there. From that I went to the whatreallyhappened.com site and that was of the same sentiment, especially in the post 911 years. It was an international discussion forum not associated with the news site of the same name, and again, there were no rules. I stayed with that because of the learning experiences that came from speaking with global viewers. After the Iraq War that site broke me down and I couldn't take it anymore. 

I went in search of less stress and settled on the mycoupons.com forum which also had a discussion forum. Again, it was horrific in what was allowed on that site in terms of political and social conversation. That entire site collapsed in a fit of pro and anti war debates. And then I landed in the god like productions mess that no sane person should ever call their online home. At the same time I was invited to become a part of a small private discussion forum that had a fellow Ky native as a member. She was also a member here and the transition to here finally happened for me. I found my online home. I came in kinda roughed up and tough talking but I finally settled down among folks I felt were like family here. And so I've stayed put. 

I'm not going anywhere. I'm too old and tired to be hunting down kindred souls online to talk with about mundane things such as what's for supper. What the owners have done to my family really ticks me off but I don't feel I can keep up with all of you as you leave for your own continued paths. I wish all of you leaving the very best in your online experiences.


----------



## painterswife

Belldandy said:


> Welcome to the innerwebz. It's been happening for years...anyone can copy/paste.
> 
> Do I agree with it? I'm not sure....if someone else owns content, you really have to expect it. Whether I personally like it is another tale.


They don't own the content. They have the might have the right to use it in certain ways. That is not one of them.


----------



## Suzyq2u

How hard would it have been to send the original poster a message, something along the lines of 
"We appreciate and enjoy what you bring to our HT forum. We have another forum that would benefit from your knowledge. With your permission we would like to post your question there. Here is the link if you're interested". 
This could have been avoided so easily...


----------



## Belldandy

Wlover said:


> They don't own the content. They have the might have the right to use it in certain ways. That is not one of them.


Are you sure they don't own the content? 

When I was writing freelance, there were some work-for-hire deals where you sold all rights, in perpetuity. The buyer could re-usenyour material without further compensation OR attribution.

I usually avoided those contracts, but everything depends on the wording of the contract when making the sale.

Recently one of my favorite forums shut its doors. Did I like it? No. But I was not the owner. This is a fine point of distinction that needs to be made.

I have every right to do as I see fit with anything I own, and so does anyone else. It's to your benefit to read the fine print.


----------



## ErinP

Dutchie said:


> Me too. Just for questions.


 That's how I was banned from S&EP, too.
I was never let back in. No warning, just one day it disappeared from my list.


----------



## painterswife

Belldandy said:


> Are you sure they don't own the content?
> 
> When I was writing freelance, there were some work-for-hire deals where you sold all rights, in perpetuity. The buyer could re-usenyour material without further compensation OR attribution.
> 
> I usually avoided those contracts, but everything depends on the wording of the contract when making the sale.
> 
> Recently one of my favorite forums shut its doors. Did I like it? No. But I was not the owner. This is a fine point of distinction that needs to be made.
> 
> I have every right to do as I see fit with anything I own, and so does anyone else. It's to your benefit to read the fine print.


No compensation, no contract, no ownership.


----------



## wr

willow_girl said:


> ROFL! The security question is just to keep the automated bots out. We were having trouble with them there for awhile.
> 
> It did trip up a recent person, though, who apparently had a one-legged duck! ound:
> 
> (For the uninitiated, the question --IIRC -- is "How many legs do three cows and a duck have?" and the answer is 14.)



That was probably me.


----------



## ErinP

Melissa said:


> In the case of Willow's post that she referenced above, it was made in February on a relatively small forum. I find it a little difficult to believe that the moderator/administrator there did not read it and know what was going on. And according to what I have heard "Alice" even responded to the post. So unless a computer has taken on its own identity and learned to post answers to internet posts, a real person had to be in control of that. This was not an accident or a mistake.


...Unless they were absolute morons.
However, in light of the fact that they bill themselves as an online media solutions company, I doubt either idiocy or lack of ethics is something they'd want to put on their letterhead.


----------



## Belldandy

Wlover said:


> No compensation, no contract, no ownership.


Who owned the forum previously?


----------



## Melissa

Chuck Holton, GroupBuilder, then CMG


----------



## unregistered41671

Group Builders


----------



## kasilofhome

willow_girl said:


> ROFL! The security question is just to keep the automated bots out. We were having trouble with them there for awhile.
> 
> It did trip up a recent person, though, who apparently had a one-legged duck! ound:
> 
> (For the uninitiated, the question --IIRC -- is "How many legs do three cows and a duck have?" and the answer is 14.)


I wrote to you I take credit for that ...open transparency is good.
I thought your site might be a site to use and explore but cannibalism is not my diet. I have see what a wolf can do in real life.

What was done was far from right. Facts are not forth coming. This was a major breach of trust. Who did what require facts ....just as obama administration lies, deceives, I would rather own what happen take their licking and learn from it.

I am not a fair weather friend...those are a dime a dozen.

Seeing what was done at this site was bad.... it clearly seems that it was profit drive desperation to boost fledgling site to create and other focus group for data mining. That's what I have come to learn in the last few days.

It is why a forum has economic value, and can be sold for profit....to enable a forum to have better and newer widgets.

What has happened here is a micro reality of our national government. Truly out of touch with it's foundation....the people. I see this as a civil revolution....with casualties to boot , more than likely. I am not jumping for joy over this, but mourning the loss of the false illusion that homesteading today became.

The reality is since what it's become is unacceptable to so many the logical results could be the death of this site....and maybe others owned by this corporation will become fodder for the entertainment of some .....not a noble cause to destroy because one has the power to do it....but that's my personal view. Or IF there are enough people will to work together we might be able to resolve and become a better site.

This is shtf we never prepped for....never imagined. So, can and will the corporate side come forth ....dare to take what they bought.... raw data to be mined and come and view us as human individuals. Can we, with out the focus of vengeance put down our pitch forks of righteous indignation and strive to to create a reality of our illusion.

That or we, will become refugees immigrating to different forums.

It is who we are in hard times personal or publicly that our true character is.


----------



## wr

I would think the original terms of service agreement was worded the way it was with reasonable intent. 

It would be difficult to sell a board without claiming some ownership to the creative ideas included and was likely prepared by lawyer with that intent, compounded by the knowledge that at least one owner was a published author, who did at one time share bits an pieces of his work. 

The calendar was a fun project and we asked for submissions and people were made aware of how their work would be used. 

It took on a bit of a different meaning when the new owners started a Facebook feed but it still came back to fair use of creative ideas. 

I don't believe that it was ever intended for financial gain and certainly not so Buddy Steve could increase his bank account by way of advertising commissions and I'm not sure that Carbon Media condones such a thing. If they did, I would think Buddy Steve would have taken a much different approach with this but that's only my opinion.


----------



## stef

Melissa said:


> Personally, I am going to go post on my back-up board until I get this straight in my head. I am extremely disillusioned...


I will be sending you a 'friend' request on your Facebook page. Be prepared for lots of requests. &#128522;


----------



## willow_girl

wr said:


> That was probably me.


No, it was someone else. Hey, don't confess to crimes of which you haven't been accused! ound:


----------



## ErinP

I'm probably going to ruin it by spilling the beans, but I access via my iPad (not the app, just a browser) and there are NO VISIBLE ADS. 
I haven't seen an ad here since sometime last summer lol


----------



## Molly Mckee

Another thing that bothered me was some of the information posted from the Carbon Media site, when the original thread about the problem was 16 pages long. It quoted some of the CM sales pitch as "seamlessly" getting the customers product introduced to people on 500+ outdoor websites. Does this mean ads, or sneaky fake people recommending things? Most recommendations given here have been very good, even little things like brands in recipes. I don't want to be given information about how well something works that is based on how much they pay, by a fake person, that is simply accepting money for tricking members. Blatant ads are one thing, trying to sell things by tricking people with false recommendations or hidden messages is rotten.


----------



## Molly Mckee

Humm, my like button disappeared at post 279. Is that some kind of warning?


----------



## Tiempo

Mine has been coming and going Molly


----------



## mzgarden

Wlover said:


> They don't own the content. They have the might have the right to use it in certain ways. That is not one of them.


Not sure about the definition of 'own' but you can see in the TOS, Section 4 they claim the right to a pretty deep capability to use, change, repost, modify publish, etc.


*Section 4. User Submissions.*
Any communication which you post to the Site or transmit to homesteadingtoday.com or to the Site by e-mail, private message (PM), public post and/or other medium can be used by homesteadingtoday.com on a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, nonexclusive license with the right to reproduce, modify, publish, edit, translate, distribute, perform, and display the communication alone or as part of other works in any form, media, or technology whether now known or hereafter developed, and to sublicense such rights through multiple tiers of sublicenses. homesteadingtoday.com may use the information it obtains relating to you, including your IP address, name, mailing address, email address and use of the Site, for its internal business and security procedures.


----------



## fordy

kasilofhome said:


> I wrote to you I take credit for that ...open transparency is good.
> I thought your site might be a site to use and explore but cannibalism is not my diet. I have see what a wolf can do in real life.
> 
> What was done was far from right. Facts are not forth coming. This was a major breach of trust. Who did what require facts ....just as obama administration lies, deceives, I would rather own what happen take their licking and learn from it.
> 
> I am not a fair weather friend...those are a dime a dozen.
> 
> Seeing what was done at this site was bad.... it clearly seems that it was profit drive desperation to boost fledgling site to create and other focus group for data mining. That's what I have come to learn in the last few days.
> 
> It is why a forum has economic value, and can be sold for profit....to enable a forum to have better and newer widgets.
> 
> What has happened here is a micro reality of our national government. Truly out of touch with it's foundation....the people. I see this as a civil revolution....with casualties to boot , more than likely. I am not jumping for joy over this, but mourning the loss of the false illusion that homesteading today became.
> 
> The reality is since what it's become is unacceptable to so many the logical results could be the death of this site....and maybe others owned by this corporation will become fodder for the entertainment of some .....not a noble cause to destroy because one has the power to do it....but that's my personal view. Or IF there are enough people will to work together we might be able to resolve and become a better site.
> 
> This is shtf we never prepped for....never imagined. So, can and will the corporate side come forth ....dare to take what they bought.... raw data to be mined and come and view us as human individuals. Can we, with out the focus of vengeance put down our pitch forks of righteous indignation and strive to to create a reality of our illusion.
> 
> That or we, will become refugees immigrating to different forums.
> 
> It is who we are in hard times personal or publicly that our true character is.


 ..............Every time 'They' give back some particular facet of their total control and ownership of OUR intellectual property , they are reducing the income earning potential of the HST website ! So , I wouldn't expect them to agree to any Give backs . , fordy


----------



## Lazy J

Here's a new thread over on the Site Admin forum:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ad...pport/535925-answers-many-things-apology.html


----------



## Lazy J

Sorry Duplicate Post


----------



## arabian knight

mzgarden said:


> Not sure about the definition of 'own' but you can see in the TOS, Section 4 they claim the right to a pretty deep capability to use, change, repost, modify publish, etc.
> 
> 
> *Section 4. User Submissions.*
> Any communication which you post to the Site or transmit to homesteadingtoday.com or to the Site by e-mail, private message (PM), public post and/or other medium can be used by homesteadingtoday.com on a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, nonexclusive license with the right to reproduce, modify, publish, edit, translate, distribute, perform, and display the communication alone or as part of other works in any form, media, or technology whether now known or hereafter developed, and to sublicense such rights through multiple tiers of sublicenses. homesteadingtoday.com may use the information it obtains relating to you, including your IP address, name, mailing address, email address and use of the Site, for its internal business and security procedures.


 And in many cases when a company goes through a change of ownership the previous contract is null and void. So what ever was signed discussed or checked was made null and void at the time of sale. So the TOS changes when the sale was approved.


----------



## painterswife

mzgarden said:


> Not sure about the definition of 'own' but you can see in the TOS, Section 4 they claim the right to a pretty deep capability to use, change, repost, modify publish, etc.
> 
> 
> *Section 4. User Submissions.*
> Any communication which you post to the Site or transmit to homesteadingtoday.com or to the Site by e-mail, private message (PM), public post and/or other medium can be used by homesteadingtoday.com on a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, nonexclusive license with the right to reproduce, modify, publish, edit, translate, distribute, perform, and display the communication alone or as part of other works in any form, media, or technology whether now known or hereafter developed, and to sublicense such rights through multiple tiers of sublicenses. homesteadingtoday.com may use the information it obtains relating to you, including your IP address, name, mailing address, email address and use of the Site, for its internal business and security procedures.


You can claim anything you want. Does not make it legal.

Try claiming you have the right to murder all the forum members.


----------



## Belfrybat

Angie has broken her silence with an apology and explanation of some of what has happened:
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ad...pport/535925-answers-many-things-apology.html


----------



## unregistered358895

As usual, I am late to this party. After spending a decade or so in marketing I really can't say that I am surprised that someone thought reposting on other pages/sites was a great idea. In fact after reading Steve's apology I wonder if it is a common traffic-driving practice on other forums.

The whole mess is very unfortunate. I enjoy this forum for the honest information and heartfelt support of people who have similar lifestyle goals to me. It is fortunate (for me) that I haven't shared much on here that I mind being out in the internet. However as an author I make a living off of my words. To have anything I've said on the internet attributed to someone else makes my blood curdle. My online personality helps me to find readers and the idea of having something I've said gather interest for someone else, be they real or fake, is unacceptable.

It is one of those breeches of trust that absolutely makes me feel like spending my time elsewhere. It is unfortunate for HT to lose so many members as fallout from a marketing idea that took so little time to plan and implement. As has been said before, I feel for the moderators stuck in the middle and for the users who may not get the benefits from this forum that I have because of the knowledge that has been pulled from it.


----------



## Belldandy

ErinP said:


> I'm probably going to ruin it by spilling the beans, but I access via my iPad (not the app, just a browser) and there are NO VISIBLE ADS.
> I haven't seen an ad here since sometime last summer lol



I want your magic ipad! :happy2:


----------



## Pony

Belldandy said:


> I want your magic ipad! :happy2:


All you need is Ad Blocker Plus.


----------



## Belldandy

Wlover said:


> You can claim anything you want. Does not make it legal.
> 
> Try claiming you have the right to murder all the forum members.



Apples and oranges. And a bit overblown? This is hardly equivalent to murder, upsetting as it is. 

I get that people feel betrayed. And personally I dislike change.

But users don't own a forum. if you sign the forum agreement that they all make us sign, it's legal.


----------



## arabian knight

ErinP said:


> I'm probably going to ruin it by spilling the beans, but I access via my iPad (not the app, just a browser) and there are NO VISIBLE ADS.
> I haven't seen an ad here since sometime last summer lol


 I have not seen one ad either in many years. Apple sure has a nice Ad Blocker doesn't it?
My iMac is not showing any ads on this site and hasn't for a long time. Not One.! LOL


----------



## Melissa

I posted this in another place pertaining to the discussion about building up a forum:

_What I am thinking is if you want to build a forum, do it the old-fashioned way... work for it. That's what we did. I started the family board on Lusenet almost 15 years ago. I posted daily, interacted with the posters, cared about them and their lives, spent my time and money to help others, built real relationships, stood up for the integrity of this place so many, many times, put my heart into it. I never lied, cheated, or did anything that was not upstanding and fully honest and upright. That is how you build a forum... _


----------



## okiemom

Give/sell us our site back. Carbon Media says one thing and does another consistently. Nothing that is said can be trusted. They are slowly killing and devaluing this site. Leave us alone before it completely crashes. We have to fight this.

Leaving or walking away lets them win and then we have no control over what is done to our knowledge, history and posts. We need to run them out of town. Homesteaders take our destiny into our own hands and don't run.


----------



## Pony

This forum has always been unique, in my mind. When I came on board 13 years ago, it was as Melissa said: People helping people, sharing information, working together for a common cause.

This whole recent controversy shows what it has come down to: We are considered a cash cow for the most recent buyer. There is no respect for how this very special place was built. No respect for the shared goals, the aspirations for something more.

Pretty much everything HST has stood for was turned upside down. It's all arsy varsy.


----------



## emdeengee

I find it interesting that when you research Carbon Media their advertising actually states:

DISPLAY ADVERTISING
With over 500 websites and over 30 million unique visitors, we offer advertisers standard IAB ad sizes for flash and rich media units, mobile display and dashboards, site sponsorships and beyond banner units to reach your outdoor audience target.

Notice the claim to their advertisers that there are over 30 million UNIQUE visitors. As someone else has already posted - using our posts on other websites but changing the names to infer that these are new posters has to do selling the advertisers on how many people visit a site. The more there are the more support and money. Kind of like when polls have dead people voting.


----------



## okiemom

They are committing fraud on the companies paying them for advertising.


----------



## ErinP

Of course.

This is like dealing with little kids--The only thing they're _sorry_ about is that they got caught. 
Maybe!


I have the same theory others do. We're probably showing up as Alice on other boards right now, it's just that no one has managed to trip over the fraudulent posts yet. 
That's the thing about people like this; clearly their adult ethics haven't grown in yet, so they're still operating at the kid-level of getting-away-with-it-til-I-get-caught


----------



## Oggie

> And if you go chasing rabbits
> And you know you're going to fall
> Tell 'em a hookah-smoking caterpillar
> Has given you the call
> Call Alice
> When she was just small
> 
> When the men on the chessboard
> Get up and tell you where to go
> And you've just had some kind of mushroom
> And your mind is moving low
> Go ask Alice
> I think she'll know


Oops. Sorry. I probably should have posted that on the "Raising Rabbits for Prophets" forum.


----------



## Melissa

I bet Alice is going to get googled a LOT today... lol



ErinP said:


> Of course.
> 
> This is like dealing with little kids--The only thing they're _sorry_ about is that they got caught.
> Maybe!
> 
> 
> I have the same theory others do. We're probably showing up as Alice on other boards right now, it's just that no one has managed to trip over the fraudulent posts yet.
> That's the thing about people like this; clearly their adult ethics haven't grown in yet, so they're still operating at the kid-level of getting-away-with-it-til-I-get-caught


----------



## emdeengee

Okay - we all know that there is no privacy on the internet and when we join a website we accept the terms of agreement or whatever they call it. Legally the site may have the right to use anything you post so you should only post what you are confident in - in other words if you do not want your Mom to read what you are writing then don't post it. 

However there is such a thing as courtesy and respect. WE joined a particular website not every website on the internet. If the owners wanted to use some of our posts on another website to create interest and conversation and build the site they could have simply asked us. Or invited us to check out the new site. Even the little girls next door know how to behave better. Last summer they knocked on our door and asked permission to have a picnic in our yard in the green cave formed by the hanging trees. They could have just gone there as the property is not fenced, but they asked permission.

Just using our posts and then adding insult to injury by changing the name of the supposed poster smacks of something nasty in the woodshed if not down right dishonest and unethical. Is it any wonder that we are upset? And by we I mean even those who have no knowledge that our particular posts have been misappropriated but who now are very distrustful.

My mom always said that courtesy costs nothing. Asking permission to use our posts would have cost nothing and perhaps willow_girl would have enjoyed posting on the new site. We will never know because she was justifiably furious at this intrusion. 

Thank you for having the courage to speak out on this willow_girl.


----------



## Harry Chickpea

I'm reminded of a song:
"You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant Excepting Alice..."


----------



## Cash

OK, first -- ANYTHING someone writes on the internet belongs to the author, not to the site. I've known several sites that have tried to claim posters' comments for their own use with the kind of language that Carbon Media uses. In every single case, as soon as the lawyers stepped in the site owners have had to back down. This is exactly like reprinting articles from magazines and newspapers without attribution, and if you want to try that with the New York Times or Associated Press be prepared for some really nasty letters from a whole barn full of attorneys. U.S. copyright law is very specific.

Several years ago a survivalist site owner tried to publish a full book that had been posted by the author in the site's fanfic section for comment and revision. The author's lawyers had a field day with that one, and he almost ended up owning the site. 

Until I retired I was a professional writer, and my articles would regularly appear on magazine and newspaper websites under my byline. Every two months or so I would do a search, and quite often I found other sites reprinting my articles without my permission and often without my byline. We had a standard letter signed by our attorney, and it almost always resulted in the material being taken down, often with compensation being paid. The one guy who tried to fight it backed off as soon as he retained his own lawyer, who acquainted him with U.S. copyright law in no uncertain terms. 

It would be like someone sorted through the frugal tips threads here and put them together in a book. It's theft of someone else's work, and illegal.


----------



## Atoman

I joined cattleforum and there are threads about the HT mess but I am locked out of them, SO the coverup continues. 

Also, ALice still has posts in cattleforum, but to be fair, they are responses to OPs trying to draw out further convo.


----------



## fordy

.............And , I think there is a lingering feeling that Miss A is going to be left IN her current Adm. position of authority , which , in light of all the Distrust she has created by banning members who should still be here , that we will be left without a new gen. manager to run this circus . , fordy


----------



## Nevada

Melissa said:


> I posted this in another place pertaining to the discussion about building up a forum:
> 
> _What I am thinking is if you want to build a forum, do it the old-fashioned way... work for it. That's what we did. I started the family board on Lusenet almost 15 years ago. I posted daily, interacted with the posters, cared about them and their lives, spent my time and money to help others, built real relationships, stood up for the integrity of this place so many, many times, put my heart into it. I never lied, cheated, or did anything that was not upstanding and fully honest and upright. That is how you build a forum... _


I'm guessing that complaining or speaking your mind isn't going to change much. I appreciate your speaking out about the situation, but the powers that be are going to do what they're going to do. I think you know that.

You've got a choice; either put up with it or create your own independent, non-commercial board.


----------



## Alice Kramden

*Ahem* THIS Alice had nothing to do with it, didn't realize anything was going on, didn't even check the board after early yesterday morning. 

Sounds like some plagiarism is going on. 

Sad thing to have happen. Like many others, I will now have second thoughts about posting anything.


----------



## Guest123

Nevada said:


> I'm guessing that complaining or speaking your mind isn't going to change much. I appreciate your speaking out about the situation, but the powers that be are going to do what they're going to do. I think you know that.
> 
> You've got a choice; either put up with it or create your own independent, non-commercial board.


Nevada, what kind of $ would be involved in creating a forum such as HT? Also, what type of a time commitment to run it? Full time job? Part time? I am looking for a new tax burden relief that I would be alright with not being profitable.


----------



## Wanda

What is the most upsetting is the ''forum administrator'' can not grasp the concept that people are truly hurt by these actions! I am 66 years old and I do not need an arrow pointing to tell me I am being talked down to.:hair My mother always said that ''you will be judged by the company you keep'', this is what in my opinion is causing so much strife. Can we in good faith believe we are not condoning the practices they are using. If I try to help a poster here, should I feel obligated to Google my post later to see if it appears on another board?


----------



## okiemom

I don't see why they would still want this site. They will never be trusted. All eyes will be on them and every move will be scrutinized and questioned. They need to let HT go and move on. They kicked a hornets nest.


----------



## Pony

Okay, I just tried to post a well-thought out post, and it went away. Poof! When I clicked "Post Quick Reply," I got an error telling me my post was too short.

WTH?


----------



## watcher

Ok I'll pipe in.

First off just FYI there's no way I'm going to go back an read 17 pages of post on this.

With that said. If this had my knickers in a knot and I found my post on one of these another boards under another name I'd spend a little time on that board taking notes of all the advertisers on it. Then I'd take a little more time and contact all those advertisers via email, snail mail AND phone calls. I'd politely explain what was happening then I'd ask them asking if they knew they were advertising with a company which was defrauding them by using zombie post to give fake numbers. And while it may be legal under the terms of use such actions have a bad moral odor to them. Then I'd inform them that I would be monitoring the offending if they continued to advertise with such a company not only would I stop supporting THEIR company I would spread the word about how their company was supporting such actions and encourage others to stop supporting them as well.

Note something VERY important. Notice I'd not just send an email. Any upset bozo can shoot off an email in a few seconds. But when you take the time to make a phone call and send a letter as follow ups companies usually take it much more seriously.


----------



## ErinP

Pony, I think it might be nothing more than the site is a bit busier than usual, so it's glitching.


----------



## Pony

ErinP said:


> Pony, I think it might be nothing more than the site is a bit busier than usual, so it's glitching.


Entirely possible. LOL. Guess I'm a little bit jumpy.


----------



## DEKE01

okiemom said:


> I don't see why they would still want this site.


clicks and views, which is what they sell to adverts. Obviously they don't care about the people or the content. 

This site has to be one of their more successful sites. There are a lot of independent farmer/homesteader blogs that get more clicks than pigforum and cattleforum,


----------



## Pony

DEKE01 said:


> clicks and views, which is what they sell to adverts. Obviously they don't care about the people or the content.
> 
> This site has to be one of their more successful sites. There are a lot of independent farmer/homesteader blogs that get more clicks than pigforum and cattleforum,


So are we feeding the monster by talking about this here? 

Maybe we should take the conversation elsewhere...


----------



## painterswife

Pony said:


> So are we feeding the monster by talking about this here?
> 
> Maybe we should take the conversation elsewhere...


We are feeding the monster but we are also putting it out onto the web what they did. Marketing will not be happy. This will show up in web searches.


----------



## unregistered353870

And talking about it here lets other members find out about it that otherwise wouldn't know.


----------



## painterswife

jtbrandt said:


> And talking about it here lets other members find out about it that otherwise wouldn't know.


And keeps bumping it to the top of the pile.


----------



## ErinP

Wlover said:


> We are feeding the monster but we are also putting it out onto the web what they did. Marketing will not be happy. This will show up in web searches.


Particularly the more often people use their full business name 

Ultimately though, I doubt they care. We're just being played.


----------



## Tiempo

ErinP said:


> Particularly the more often people use their full business name
> 
> Ultimately though, I doubt they care. We're just being played.


You mean like Carbon Media Group lies, cheats and steals from its advertisers?


----------



## Nevada

Wlover said:


> We are feeding the monster but we are also putting it out onto the web what they did. Marketing will not be happy. This will show up in web searches.


Actually, since the CF forum is only viewable by registered members the content isn't be included in web searches. Search engine crawlers can't browse this particular forum.


----------



## hippygirl

Pony said:


> Okay, I just tried to post a well-thought out post, and it went away. Poof! When I clicked "Post Quick Reply," I got an error telling me my post was too short.
> 
> WTH?


Nah, Pony, I've had that happen to me quite a few times before this train wreck ever happened.


----------



## Nevada

treasureacres said:


> Nevada, what kind of $ would be involved in creating a forum such as HT? Also, what type of a time commitment to run it? Full time job? Part time? I am looking for a new tax burden relief that I would be alright with not being profitable.


It would cost a whole lot less than you might think. I could operate it as a free board with only minor changes.


----------



## where I want to

Nevada said:


> Actually, since the CF forum is only viewable by registered members the content isn't be included in web searches. Search engine crawlers can't browse this particular forum.


I look at it when not logged in. I think you just can't post to it unless registered. Not that I know how a web crawler works.


----------



## Nevada

where I want to said:


> I look at it when not logged in. I think you just can't post to it unless registered. Not that I know how a web crawler works.


I stand corrected. It was my understanding that CF was going to be viewable by members only, but evidently that never happened.


----------



## Molly Mckee

It happened for a couple of weeks, then went back to being accessible to everyone.


----------



## geo in mi

I took a look at the Board of Directors, hmph, wouldn't let'em come in my cow pasture. They'd step in all the cow pies, think they were Frisbees, and try to sell'em. Bunch of city slicker ad men.

I don't like someone putting words in my mouth, but even less, I dislike anyone who takes my words out of my mouth and tries to sell them.

For now, I've got potatoes to plant, grass to mow, fish to catch, and a lot of other things besides participating in this shaky jake forum--at least since a couple of days ago. Maybe things will change, but all the weight seems now to be on the corporate side of the wagon.

geo in mi
Abraham Lincoln
Karl Marx
Groucho Marx
Alice

Is it possible to take "Forum Supporter" off my title???


----------



## Pony

Yeah, I'd like to take that "Forum Supporter" off myself.


----------



## Tiempo

There's a tutorial posted somewhere on how to remove them


----------



## Tiempo

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ad...ncements-support/514194-disabling-badges.html


----------



## watcher

Nevada said:


> Actually, since the CF forum is only viewable by registered members the content isn't be included in web searches. Search engine crawlers can't browse this particular forum.


You might want to check to be sure. I've found HT msg links when I have google searched for some things.


----------



## emdeengee

Some people may think we are over-reacting to this situation. I do not think we are. 

I joined THIS website and have enjoyed it for 5 years - reading and posting. There are other websites that I could have joined with similar subject matter but I chose not to for various reasons. 

Posting a story on this website about a cow rescue was willow_girl's choice. She did not choose to post on the other cattle websites. Some may think that a cow story that is being plagiarized between two cattle websites may be a lot to get upset about but the benign subject is not the point. What is important is that this is just the thin end of the wedge. 

For example: If I choose to post on the survivalist/prepper forum on a particular website then I certainly would not be happy to find out that my posts were being used by those owners as added material on the survivalist/prepper forum of a White Supremacist website - using the argument that they own the content of both so can do what they want - and so what? the two websites have common interests. 

Not. 

I am interested in survivalist information but not interested in getting it from racists.

So don't go making choices for me for where my comments, information, opinions and stories can be posted. You may have the legal right but it is not the right thing to do.


----------



## wr

ErinP said:


> Pony, I think it might be nothing more than the site is a bit busier than usual, so it's glitching.


Maybe Steve can fix that for us. I understand he's pretty handy with computers :rotfl:


----------



## wr

Nevada said:


> I'm guessing that complaining or speaking your mind isn't going to change much. I appreciate your speaking out about the situation, but the powers that be are going to do what they're going to do. I think you know that.
> 
> You've got a choice; either put up with it or create your own independent, non-commercial board.


Can you explain this RSS (?) oopsie for us dummies. Is this something a layman can easily use, will it typically not work and then just poof one day, it magically starts working and how specific is it for mining information? If I set it to mine information regarding cows, would it also transfer a comment someone made about their mother in law being an old dry cow without monitoring?


----------



## Nevada

wr said:


> Can you explain this RSS (?) oopsie for us dummies. Is this something a layman can easily use, will it typically not work and then just poof one day, it magically starts working and how specific is it for mining information? If I set it to mine information regarding cows, would it also transfer a comment someone made about their mother in law being an old dry cow without monitoring?


RSS is for displaying news feeds on a web page, which is updated remotely from a news server. If it's working on and off then it's probably a news server problem.


----------



## painterswife

wr said:


> Can you explain this RSS (?) oopsie for us dummies. Is this something a layman can easily use, will it typically not work and then just poof one day, it magically starts working and how specific is it for mining information? If I set it to mine information regarding cows, would it also transfer a comment someone made about their mother in law being an old dry cow without monitoring?


You can set RRS feed to post info on a website. Ghost writers use it to post for their customers. For example, a blog. The owner has someone write for them and it posts under their blog owners name.

You have to put in the person's name or account that you want it to be posted under.


----------



## painterswife

Here is an example.

http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/25685/how-to-make-an-rss-feed-from-a-forum-thread/


----------



## Becka03

I haven't been on HT is a few months - I am glad you posted your back up site Melissa- I was noticing alot of my favorites gone back in Nov maybe?
Ughhhh


----------



## fixitguy

There must be a link here to media matters and George Soros.........Some one needs to get Glen Beck on the phone..:stirpot:


----------



## wr

Nevada said:


> RSS is for displaying news feeds on a web page, which is updated remotely from a news server. If it's working on and off then it's probably a news server problem.



So, the excuse that this RSS wasn't working and then fired up on its own and nobody realized it, isn't exactly plausible or am I misunderstanding you comment.


----------



## Nevada

wr said:


> So, the excuse that this RSS wasn't working and then fired up on its own and nobody realized it, isn't exactly plausible or am I misunderstanding you comment.


I would have to know more to be sure, but that doesn't sound reasonable.


----------



## Terri

Nevada said:


> I would have to know more to be sure, but that doesn't sound reasonable.


CMGSteve has since taken responsibility for being "Alice" and posting replies.


----------



## Homesteader

Nevada, in light of Terri's post no. 359: (and I am NOT savvy here, small words ok?), could they have created the fake posts in a "practice area", including the responses by "Alice", thought it didn't work, then, somehow, it did, so that is how the Alice responses got onto the site?

Or is that not possible with an RSS feed? I do know many seem to think the acts of a. creating the duplicate post content and b. responding to it, are separate physical acts, thereby making it seem that they are lying to us. 

Any insight?


----------



## aftermidnite

removed my post here since the post referred to was removed by HSTadmin ...


----------



## Txsteader

Melissa said:


> Just because something is legal, does not make it right. _I do think sometimes people have these ideas that sound good at the time, but if there was further reflection they might realize that it is not really a good idea._


Indeed. But statements like this, in hindsight, are very telling about motive. 



> *Current goal*: Reach $50 million in revenue by 2017.


http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20141003/AWARDS4014/141009992/hyaat-chaudhary-33

Their expected revenue last year was $17 million. It seems they needed a way to increase revenue to meet that goal and used HT as a means to do that.

Not just a bad idea, but a dishonorable one as well. JMO


----------



## wr

Terri said:


> CMGSteve has since taken responsibility for being "Alice" and posting replies.



Yes, you are correct. The official story does have the Invisible Man accepting responsibility. That's usually how these corporate smeared get cleaned up.


----------



## unregistered65598

I don't post here often, but I read daily and am appalled by what they have done. I have book marked both Melissa's and willows forums and plan to join those. I have been blasted in the past by a few members and it has caused me to stop posting so much. Now with this going on I am done posting. I will check in to this thread and no others on this site. Hope to see all of you on the other sites.


----------



## Jolly

Melissa said:


> I know, I have been told that many times Tiempo. I have always believed in this place and it is hard to let it go when I have built it through so many hours and hours of really caring. To me, it is personal...


Once upon a time, on a piano forum in another corner of the internet, the owner (Frank Baxter - I'll name names and point fingers) decided his general discussion area, similar to the General Chat area here, had become too vitriolic.

Maybe so. Maybe it was because of the contested Bush/Gore election, maybe it was because we had too darn many argue-loving lawyers participating, but Mr Baxter shut that area down. When that happened, I thought a lot of the best and most knowledgeable guys left.

But his site continued to make money, as other members joined. I don't think today's board is the quality of the old one, though. I do wish him well.

Regardless, those members who liked the Coffee Room, moved on and created three new general discussion forums...one with a liberal bent and some moderation, one with a conservative bent and little moderation, and one much like the Old Coffee Room - no holds barred and the Devil take the hindmost.

And you know, a funny thing happened on the way to the new forums...They were successful. The one I generally drop in on, now has over 1,100,000 posts. http://s10.zetaboards.com/The_New_Coffee_Room/forum/10633/

If you decide to break clean, there are sites that will host you for free. I suspect you would have a very high post board in a very short period of time. Or, you can stay here and soldier on.

It's your decision, but I think your board members are very loyal and will support you, no matter what you decide.


----------



## arabian knight

Ther eis a FULL answer and apology for the CEO go down and READ.


----------



## Melissa

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ad...uncements-support/535969-message-cmg-ceo.html

Here is another official message to consider. I am reflecting upon it, still not sure if the gravity of this situation has truly sunk in...


----------



## tiffnzacsmom

What he claims happened is pretty much not possible, ran it past my techie friends.


----------



## Becka03

can someone post WG forum?


----------



## Melissa

No, it can't be posted. The site censor will not allow it.


----------



## partndn

But Becka03 just click on WillowGirl's name and it's on her homepage as well as contact info.


----------



## Belfrybat

Melissa said:


> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ad...uncements-support/535969-message-cmg-ceo.html
> 
> Here is another official message to consider. I am reflecting upon it, still not sure if the gravity of this situation has truly sunk in...


You may be right but at least he's trying to mend fences. Perhaps not in the way I would have gone about it, but I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt. I value this place and hope the current difficulties can be dealt with and put to rest. That will take work on both sides as we've had our trust shattered. Sadly, right now there are some who seem determined to keep things stirred up and refusing to try and work thing out. I hope they will change their minds and attitudes if "management" becomes more transparent. I guess time will tell.


----------



## Nevada

Belfrybat said:


> You may be right but at least he's trying to mend fences. Perhaps not in the way I would have gone about it, but I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt. I value this place and hope the current difficulties can be dealt with and put to rest. That will take work on both sides as we've had our trust shattered. Sadly, right now there are some who seem determined to keep things stirred up and refusing to try and work thing out. I hope they will change their minds and attitudes if "management" becomes more transparent. I guess time will tell.


You make a good point, and I value this board a great deal also. But the fact remains that this board has become commercial digital property. Regardless of the motives in the current dispute, we have to accept that the CEO intents to exploit traffic at this board in the future. After all, that why he bought it.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but what I'm hearing in this thread is that HT members don't like the way they're being exploited. Giving the CEO the benefit of the doubt isn't going to change that.


----------



## Selena

Nevada said:


> I stand corrected. It was my understanding that CF was going to be viewable by members only, but evidently that never happened.


Most of the forum was that way for a short time. It has since changed. Hard to get new members when you can't browse at all.


----------



## Selena

Melissa said:


> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ad...uncements-support/535969-message-cmg-ceo.html
> 
> Here is another official message to consider. I am reflecting upon it, still not sure if the gravity of this situation has truly sunk in...



lol Melissa, some of us can't view that link as we "don't have permission". Some pigs are more equal than others on the CMG farm.


----------



## AngieM2

Selena, try again.


----------



## Nevada

Selena said:


> Most of the forum was that way for a short time. It has since changed. Hard to get new members when you can't browse at all.


Interesting. I recall thinking that was a mistake.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/countryside-families/528305-what-happened-2.html#post7288575


----------



## Osiris

I echo the feelings on this thread. I generally hang in the fiber arts forum and we're fuming to be honest. 

The practice of lifting posts to populate another forum outside this site is deceitful and can only lead to misunderstandings and perhaps legal trouble. Being in business to make money does NOT excuse any entity from actions which are unacceptable in general society. Plageurism and outright theft of personal work is unacceptable is every society worldwide. It has nothing to do with whether harm was done. The intention to steal is there. "Business" is not synonymous with "CHICANERY". Unfortunately and that is precisely what has transpired. 
I was very happy to be a supporting member of this site and recommended it to my friends. I have second thoughts about continuing to do so now. 

Sincerely,
"ALICE"


----------



## unregistered353870

Wow, what a fun time with our corporate owner tonight. I was optimistic from his first post, but it quickly went downhill from there, and eventually reached the point of absurdity and continued to get even more absurd. Hopefully he just needs some sleep and isn't always so scattered. Maybe tomorrow will be better.


----------



## vicker

His constantly asking, "why are you so angry?", was very enlightening.


----------



## vicker

But, the good news is, ...:......they've got a bunch of super cool and groovy things coming our way in the very near future! We're going to be very excited. Just you wait and see.


----------



## vicker

But wait! That's not all! If you sign up now you'll also get this cool widget.


----------



## vicker

The part where I was won over was when he called someone ignorant. I'm not making that up, or insinuating. He called someone ignorant. I was surprised Angie didn't ban him on the spot. Okay, I wasn't surprised.  she was probably staring at her screen, looking like Hot Lips Hooligan as Douglas McArthur rides by in a jeep.


----------



## Eric Shultz

A cool widget that infects your browser and mines your hard drive for even more resellable data no doubt.


----------



## Muskrat

Hooligan?


----------



## vicker

You just really had to be there. The man is Mensa, was trained by, not one, but two Ukrainian GRAND CHEST MASTERS! He gets all nerdy with techie stuff, and, get this, he grows squash, and corn, and green beans (which they can), and.... He killed a buck with a bow! He's got it in his office and even offered to show us a picture of it. He lives and breaths the great out doors. He said that several times. I can't wait till this evening. He said he's coming back.


----------



## vicker

Muskrat said:


> Hooligan?



Yeah, well... I'll get the CEO to fix that for me tonight. ( he's a close personal friend of mine.)


----------



## manygoatsnmore

*AND* he thinks 2 moves ahead! Um, in chess, don't you need to be thinking a lot further ahead than that? 

What really got me was how many times he stated, "just ask me the questions - I'll answer them. [paraphrased]" while not answering any of the serious questions he was asked! 

And if he really thinks that asking for gardening advice is winning any of us over...sheesh. If he really wanted gardening advice, he'd have signed up for HT and hit up the Gardening Forum when he first bought the site. The "ah, shucks...I'm just regular folks" schtick doesn't cut it. The joking about gardening when we want answers to serious issues is just condescending and in poor taste. I won't even get into the "why all the hate" and calling a poster ignorant!

I *was* just sick to my stomach and sad...now I'm angry.


----------



## tiffnzacsmom

My fiancee and I met over chess, he has a genius IQ and I'm right with him in brains thought I've never been tested and I've grown a garden. Maybe now he'll see some of us as equals.


----------



## Coco

well just reading through the whole threads on this and the farce down stairs with the Q+A , I do believe they own this site and they don't care on hoot about what happened. They will not delete people that asked to be deleted as they are the unique users they need to generate monies. They own this site and will do what they see fit to do with it.


----------



## where I want to

I feel the urge to say my good byes- not because I'm going off in a snit but that I will be escorted off sooner or later. I was easily lead from hiding by casual words of mock sincerity and the price of such stupidity is banning. But there is a freedom in that too.


----------



## mnn2501

Look everyone. This home grown site was successful (IMO because it was homegrown) but then it was sold (twice) and is now owned by a corporation. Corporations exist to make money for their shareholders - period.
Once you realize this, its up to you if you want to continue on this board or find another one. I haven't decided yet, but I will not be posting any of my survival fiction on this board, as I want to maintain my ownership rights to what I have created.


----------



## Wind in Her Hair

I am completely and totally horrified if THIS is the way 
they/he/Steve/Alice/CEO/Hyaat/whatever 
deals with anything on this site. 

If last evening's behavior was indicative of his professional ability and attitude towards us, we have all been played for fools. HT is now a corporate farm. 

HTers deserve better treatment this and a modicum of respect. 

Please go read this in it's entirety before it disappears.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ad...uncements-support/535969-message-cmg-ceo.html


----------



## Lazy J

Thread deletions have started will the ban hammer be next?


----------



## Karen

Now, just to add to all drama and hurt, there's this "glock26USMC" guy who's posting about it all. He claimed no affiliation with Carbon Media and didn't even know he had an account on their Hog forum.

Turns out, he's the administrator of that hog forum AND of a whole BUNCH of other Carbon Media forums as well.

So now we have yet another Carbon Media representative lying right to our faces and right in the CEO's thread - who has yet to address it.


----------



## where I want to

Why are we worth all this bother? It seems so simple unless it's become personal. 
The problems seem so casually created when there was absolutely no real need.


----------



## puddlejumper007

this is sad, use to be a downhome American site, for farmers , homesteaders and want to be..guess we got to be too American and free and that must be a big no no these days...


----------



## Karen

I can't believe he used the ultimate banned word and called someone ignorant. How disrespectful and unprofessional is that?


----------



## Molly Mckee

where I want to said:


> Why are we worth all this bother? It seems so simple unless it's become personal.
> The problems seem so casually created when there was absolutely no real need.


We must be a bigger profit center than we thought. With the fraud involved maybe the whole corporation will go down.


----------



## Wendy

> I can't believe he used the ultimate banned word and called someone ignorant. How disrespectful and unprofessional is that?


Because is CEO (not sure I even believe that) no one can touch that thread. Anyone else would have been gone over those things. I for one find him to be an arrogant donkey. He talks down on us like we are stupid & doesn't answer questions that he promised to ask.


----------



## Wind in Her Hair

he just said this to MELISSA!!!!!  :nono:



CMG_CEO said:


> Melissa, I hear you have it out for HST, so I'm assuming you will continue to bash me no matter what I say.


----------



## Belldandy

I do have a question or three for the CEO: 

Who owned the forum before you bought it?

Why was it sold?

What were the terms of the sale?


----------



## Belldandy

I do have a question or three for the CEO: 

Who owned the forum before you bought it?

Why was it sold?

What were the terms of the sale?


----------



## Becka03

Wind in Her Hair said:


> he just said this to MELISSA!!!!!  :nono:


The best thing to come out of this is WillowGirls area and Melissa's area- I hope they grow and grow and grow


----------



## Melissa

Wind in Her Hair said:


> he just said this to MELISSA!!!!!  :nono:


 I am just so bewildered by that comment. I have spent the last three days just appalled, in tears, and so upset and to have someone say I have it in for this site is so unbelievable. I don't even know what to think...


----------



## DAVID In Wisconsin

Wind in Her Hair said:


> he just said this to MELISSA!!!!!  :nono:


Obviously he doesn't know Melissa at all. But not surprised that they wouldn't get along. She has morals and scruples and generally stands up for what is right...


----------



## Wind in Her Hair

I have no words for what is happening and why. EXCEPT that Angie :shrug: and her employers are blowing up the forums to gain complete and absolute control. The new owners and CEO ARE cleaning house - they are sweeping all of us out the door. 

they obviously do not care one whit about these forums - they just copied all of our posts and plagiarized our personal property and information and are using us on other websites to collect money from advertisers. We are just numbers to these guys. 

And what they are doing is ILLEGAL and IMMORAL. 

I never in a million years thought I would see this.


----------



## ErinP

vicker said:


> The part where I was won over was when he called someone ignorant. I'm not making that up, or insinuating. He called someone ignorant. I was surprised Angie didn't ban him on the spot. Okay, I wasn't surprised.  she was probably staring at her screen, looking like Hot Lips Hooligan as Douglas McArthur rides by in a jeep.


To be fair, he did say that in response to a comment that he was like an Indian call center where everyone is named Bob and they only talk you in circles.
Rather than seeing it as a complaint about service quality, he might have received it as a hugely racist dig, instead...


----------



## puddlejumper007

where I want to said:


> Why are we worth all this bother? It seems so simple unless it's become personal.
> The problems seem so casually created when there was absolutely no real need.


perhaps they read out political site,,,way too many free thinking people there..


----------



## ErinP

Melissa said:


> I am just so bewildered by that comment. I have spent the last three days just appalled, in tears, and so upset and to have someone say I have it in for this site is so unbelievable. I don't even know what to think...


I'm _hoping_ he's just a little punch drunk and lost track of who was swinging.


----------



## where I want to

This site has been having fewer and fewer posts for sometime. Long before any of this current brouhaha came out. People have been silently leaving, been banned or reduced where they will post.
How can a business man look at that and decide that it is sabotage now? If MacDonald loses customers, they look at changes to bring them back, not blame the customers for not wanting what they choose to serve.


----------



## bloogrssgrl

Interview with Hyatt Chaudhary and Craig Weingarten...

http://archive.freep.com/article/20131215/BUSINESS06/312150049/meet-the-boss-hyaat-chaudhary

From the article...

"Q: What kind of standards do you set for your content &#8212; which might be aggregated from other sources or rewritten from new releases?

Weingarten: Obviously, we state where everything is coming from. We make sure everyone knows if its from a freelancer, it&#8217;s original or given to us &#8212; or if it&#8217;s from someone else, we&#8217;ll make sure everyone knows. And the standard we set is that when someone opens up an article they know exactly where it&#8217;s coming from."

A-ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## pattycake

My post concerning Angie has been deleted!!


----------



## painterswife

pattycake said:


> My post concerning Angie has been deleted!!


Her personal life has nothing to do with this problem and should not be part of this discussion. It should have been deleted.


----------



## Melissa

Yes, this is about the site and the forums and what is happening here. None of us deserve to have our personal information brought into it. I don't know anyone walking around with perfect stamped on their foreheads...


----------



## Becka03

where I want to said:


> This site has been having fewer and fewer posts for sometime. Long before any of this current brouhaha came out. People have been silently leaving, been banned or reduced where they will post.
> How can a business man look at that and decide that it is sabotage now? If MacDonald loses customers, they look at changes to bring them back, not blame the customers for not wanting what they choose to serve.


they are being like JC Penny's remember how great they were- I Loved them- they hired a new CEO who refused to listen to customers- they walked away with their $$ and even bringing the store back to the way it was - they are closing stores all over the place


----------



## Selena

Melissa said:


> I am just so bewildered by that comment. I have spent the last three days just appalled, in tears, and so upset and to have someone say I have it in for this site is so unbelievable. I don't even know what to think...


He's attempting to bully you - that is how some males in corporate america operate. Met plenty of them and once they realize they can't bully you, one of two things happen: they leave you alone (rarely but it does occur) or they ramp up the bullying and try to drive you away. There is no crying in corporate america and Melissa you should not shed any tears over this male-by-virtue-of-XY-chromosomes only. 

So I say, we all stay until we're ousted, not posting anything worth "sharing" on other Carbon forums of course . Nothing, and I do mean nothing, on the internet ever goes away.


----------



## Guest123

Mr. CEO
I have stayed out of this because as a business owner with 250+ employees I understand that sometimes employees do "stupid" things. Doing something stupid is not unforgivable, but lying about, making condescending remarks, and treating people like their opinions do not matter is unforgivable in my book. I am not sure if your âMessage from the CEOâ was supposed impress us, intimidate us, or just an attempt to cover your ass. I learned very quickly here at Homesteading Today that there is a very diverse group of people here with all kinds of different backgrounds, education levels, and personalities. One thing they do have in common is that they are NOT IGNORANT! The way you have danced around all of the questions being asked is insulting, but not to us, but to you! You have embarrassed yourself by thinking you can talk down to us like we are a bunch of uneducated hicks! I have very close friends that could buy and sell your corporation in a heartbeat, and none of them would ever act the way you have to the members here at HT. So you keep patting yourself on the back for your accomplishments, and keep telling yourself how great you are, but I will side with good people every time and that is what the members of this site are. And to attack Melissa, whom I consider the perfect example of what this site is aboutâ¦..wow!

Maybe all of the members here should start contacting the companies that pay for the advertising here and many other sites. He is a link to their homepage with a small list of their clients. Start flooding them with emails about this unethical behavior! http://www.carbonmedia.com/clients/


----------



## Pony

Hokey smokes.

I love the Mensa comment. So what? You'd be surprised at who is in Mensa. LOL. Doesn't mean you have social skills, believe me. (And no, I'm not dissing "smart" people. Like I said, you'd be surprised who is Mensa.)


----------



## Molly Mckee

treasureacres said:


> Mr. CEO
> I have stayed out of this because as a business owner with 250+ employees I understand that sometimes employees do "stupid" things. Doing something stupid is not unforgivable, but lying about, making condescending remarks, and treating people like their opinions do not matter is unforgivable in my book. I am not sure if your âMessage from the CEOâ was supposed impress us, intimidate us, or just an attempt to cover your ass. I learned very quickly here at Homesteading Today that there is a very diverse group of people here with all kinds of different backgrounds, education levels, and personalities. One thing they do have in common is that they are NOT IGNORANT! The way you have danced around all of the questions being asked is insulting, but not to us, but to you! You have embarrassed yourself by thinking you can talk down to us like we are a bunch of uneducated hicks! I have very close friends that could buy and sell your corporation in a heartbeat, and none of them would ever act the way you have to the members here at HT. So you keep patting yourself on the back for your accomplishments, and keep telling yourself how great you are, but I will side with good people every time and that is what the members of this site are. And to attack Melissa, whom I consider the perfect example of what this site is aboutâ¦..wow!
> 
> Maybe all of the members here should start contacting the companies that pay for the advertising here and many other sites. He is a link to their homepage with a small list of their clients. Start flooding them with emails about this unethical behavior! http://www.carbonmedia.com/clients/


That would really good idea, most of those are pretty solid companies. But of course, they may have never heard of Carbon Media Group.


----------



## Nevada

Oggie said:


> Folks need to understand that, from a legal standpoint (at least as it is being presented by the owners of this site), when you post anything on a HomesteadingToday forum, you are essentially gifting it to the site and, thereby, the owners of the site.


The board owners probably have the right to declare the site content their property in the terms of service, but according to the site FAQ they donate all original content to public domain.

_When someone posts original content on this site, the content enters the public domain._
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_who_owns

Has that changed? Am I misunderstanding the meaning? How can the owners donate content to public domain and still claim that they own it?


----------



## watcher

vicker said:


> His constantly asking, "why are you so angry?", was very enlightening.


Did I miss something or was this a private meeting?


----------



## Wind in Her Hair

People, this is a hostile takeover.


----------



## watcher

Molly Mckee said:


> We must be a bigger profit center than we thought. With the fraud involved maybe the whole corporation will go down.


That can QUICKLY change. If people start contacting the advertisers they see on this site and let them know that seeing an ad here makes them much less likely to buy ANY product they sell advertisers will start rethinking their investments. 

Theoretically it could reach the point the current owners will see the site as a liability rather than an asset and start looking to unload, uh sell, it.


----------



## Johnny Dolittle

I had not known the site had recently changed ownership until 2 days ago. When did this corp take over the site ?


----------



## Johnny Dolittle

Wind in Her Hair said:


> I have no words for what is happening and why. EXCEPT that Angie :shrug: and her employers are blowing up the forums to gain complete and absolute control. The new owners and CEO ARE cleaning house - they are sweeping all of us out the door.
> 
> they obviously do not care one whit about these forums - they just copied all of our posts and plagiarized our personal property and information and are using us on other websites to collect money from advertisers. We are just numbers to these guys.
> 
> And what they are doing is ILLEGAL and IMMORAL.
> 
> I never in a million years thought I would see this.


*Wow* ... are you sure this is happening ?????


----------



## unregistered41671

johnny dolittle said:


> *wow* ... Are you sure this is happening ?????


yep ...


----------



## sidepasser

Yes go down to the administration page and read willow ' s post


----------



## marytx

Dang. This is an issue I had back when Countryside owned the forum. They lifted my comments and printed them in their magazine without giving credit. In that case I don't think I would have minded if they had given credit.

But there have been a lot of things I have posted here over the years that I expected to stay here.

How do I find out if my posts have been put elsewhere, and how do I stop it?


----------



## vicki in NW OH

mary said:


> Dang. This is an issue I had back when Countryside owned the forum. They lifted my comments and printed them in their magazine without giving credit. In that case I don't think I would have minded if they had given credit.
> 
> But there have been a lot of things I have posted here over the years that I expected to stay here.
> 
> How do I find out if my posts have been put elsewhere, and how do I stop it?


I remember that. It happened to quite a few people, didn't it.


----------



## Belfrybat

mary said:


> Dang. This is an issue I had back when Countryside owned the forum. They lifted my comments and printed them in their magazine without giving credit. In that case I don't think I would have minded if they had given credit.
> 
> But there have been a lot of things I have posted here over the years that I expected to stay here.
> 
> How do I find out if my posts have been put elsewhere, and how do I stop it?


It was a one-off thing concerning two forums spanning a few weeks. Read the thread on the Support forum from the CEO. Especially posts 430-431. Please don't continue to fan the flames-- the CEO has met most of the requests made (including Angie no longer being Admin and moderator), and is working on others, including the Terms of Service. This just blew up less than 48 hours ago -- it takes time to resolve an issue of this magnitude.

And I am not defending the management in any way shape or form.--what happened was non defensible. I just happen to believe HT is worth the effort to save it, and possibly make it better.


----------



## highlands

Wanda said:


> I find it very ironic that the cattle and pigs forum are the ones that had the posts ''lifted'' off site, but have no mention of this controversy!


It was discussed in a bunch of threads in those forums including it's own thread on the Pig forum. When I first saw the threads being copied from HT to another web site I reported it to the HT admins. At the time I thought it was someone pirating threads from HT to that other forum - I didn't understand the connection between the web sites.

Since then my understanding is that the admins have cleaned up the initial problem by deleting the offending copied threads and they have turned off the software that was causing the cross contamination. Unfortunately the whole thing has left an unfortunate flavor in the mud.

I hope that it will heal. I am not ready to give up on HT or the Pig forum on HT which I moderate. HT has a tremendous amount of helpful information and helpful people. HT has a long history which I hope can continue into the future. But that will only happen if the community members are respected.

While the terms of service (TOS) may give the corporate owners the legal right to reuse what is posted here they should do it _*with*_ full credit to the original writers. I have creative works which I created and I own the copyright on. My by-line must always be attached. They may find that when push comes to shove in the courts that by law they are required to credit the original authors and failure to do so could lead to invalidation of the TOS and thus their loss of use of the articles. A lawyer could better interpret such things - I'm just a pig farmer so don't look to me on matters beyond my ken.

I would hope that our corporate owners will learn the lesson from this that if they want to make money off of HT they need to keep their hands off the community and be more respectful of the members such that the community thrives rather than people running away to form other web sites. We don't need the Tower of Babble or Balkanization.

-Walter


----------



## DEKE01

Highlands, glad to hear from you. I looked into the pig section hoping to see you take a stand and saw nothing of the thread you've described. Where is it? What is it named?


----------



## marytx

Well that's interesting. I have enjoyed this site for a really long time. Was a member on the Lusenet forum that gave way to this one. I do not like this whole not owning my own words and pictures thing. I don't like it at all.


----------



## manygoatsnmore

This plagiarism went on for more than a few weeks - It evidently started in November 2014. If willow_girl hadn't found it, who knows how long it would have continued?


----------



## arabian knight

Well its done and over lets move on.


----------



## highlands

DEKE01 said:


> Highlands, glad to hear from you. I looked into the pig section hoping to see you take a stand and saw nothing of the thread you've described. Where is it? What is it named?


It appears that those threads and posts were cleaned out when the correction was made. There were a lot of notes about the copying of posts spread across many different threads as people discovered it and then there was one thread about it in particular. I don't remember the name and can't find it now. 

I think that the purpose of this cleaning is to move the discussion into the general forum as there was also discussion in many other places. This is a general forum topic so that does make sense to me rather than scattering comments and responses all over the place. Personally, I'm a believer in combining identical threads. It is clearer and easier to understand what is happening. As much as we can.

-Walter


----------



## Selena

From BWH forum re: copying from another source:
_
Please note that if you copy information from another website or blog or wherever, you MUST post proper attribution, including a link to the page on which the information was found.

Best practice is to post a few paragraphs and a link back to read more unless you have been given permission to post the whole thing._

See how simple and ethical it could have been?


----------



## Forerunner

Selena said:


> See how simple and ethical it could have been?


Yup. 

Now try convincing Arabian....... Seems he's on the payroll.


----------



## manygoatsnmore

arabian knight said:


> Well its done and over lets move on.


You keep saying this. Don't you understand that the coverup is worse than the original crime - and that was bad to start with? :hair

It's not over with until the CEO clears up a few more points, like what sites are owned by Carbon Media Group. Transparency means giving HT members the ability to look at those sites and make sure our content hasn't been posted by "Alice" on any of them. Every time someone posts a CMG owned site, their post is deleted. That's not transparency. That's not trust building. That's why people are having a bit of trouble just "moving on".


----------



## manygoatsnmore

Selena said:


> From BWH forum re: copying from another source:
> _
> Please note that if you copy information from another website or blog or wherever, you MUST post proper attribution, including a link to the page on which the information was found.
> 
> Best practice is to post a few paragraphs and a link back to read more unless you have been given permission to post the whole thing._
> 
> See how simple and ethical it could have been?


It certainly would have spared all concerned a lot of grief. :hair

What a novel thought...:idea:...attributing information to the original author.  

I'm torn...I want to stay on HT with my friends and on-line family...but I really have a hard time wrapping my little pea-but MENSA eligible-brain around the questionable ethics shown. I'm no longer even referring to the original plagiarized posts. At this point, I want transparency, as promised. I'd like it in the form of a list of the other forums owned by Carbon Media Group so we can actually look at the sites and see if any of our work has been lifted and attributed to "Alice" et al. The unwillingness to do this still smacks of a cover up. Remember Richard Nixon? The cover up of the Watergate burglary was, in the end, far more disastrous than the original crime. Was it Ardie who quoted, "Oh, what a tangled web we weave..."?


----------



## clovis

mary said:


> Dang. This is an issue I had back when Countryside owned the forum. They lifted my comments and printed them in their magazine without giving credit. In that case I don't think I would have minded if they had given credit.


You are right. 

IIRC, Ken Scharabock was asking questions on the forum, and then compiled the replies into articles that CS magazine published.

I have never subscribed to CS, and it has been ages since I've read the article, but people were very upset, and rightfully so.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Oggie said:


> Folks need to understand that, from a legal standpoint (at least as it is being presented by the owners of this site), when you post anything on a HomesteadingToday forum, you are essentially gifting it to the site and, thereby, the owners of the site.
> 
> That goes for handy homesteading tips, the touching story about your dying granny or whatever.
> 
> What we post here is content and generating content is necessary for any website to keep going and creating revenue.
> 
> Content (with the exception to almost all of what I post) has value.
> 
> By taking content from this website and replicating it on other sites, the amount of content and its value are increased.
> 
> And, because the owners of this site believe that they already own the content, they might not have seen the ethical errors of the practice (although changing the user names when repurposing the content seems, on its face, a bit shady).


Post of the decade award.

While I DO see the outrage, this is simply a fact.


----------



## Belldandy

Like a work-for-hire contract. If you sign it you can't complain.

But if you signed a one-time rights-only contract, then somehow it's sold to someone who bought all rights...would you, the original author, have to be legally notified?

That's one I can't answer. When did TOS change, and were we notified?


----------



## highlands

Actually, the TOS is very distinctly different than a work-for-hire contract. Work-for-hire gives copyright to the employer. The TOS can not take your copyright, merely make it so they have permission to publish the work. The original purpose of such TOS was to make it clear that the web site owner had the right to publish the comments so a nasty user couldn't later come back in the courts and claim copyright violation. The purpose was not to allow the web site to collect content that it could then later do something totally different with. Over the years if you read the TOSs you'll notice the lawyers gradually expanded them to cover more and more. But they still are not work-for-hire.


----------



## Belfrybat

Belldandy said:


> Like a work-for-hire contract. If you sign it you can't complain.
> 
> But if you signed a one-time rights-only contract, then somehow it's sold to someone who bought all rights...would you, the original author, have to be legally notified?
> 
> That's one I can't answer. When did TOS change, and were we notified?



The TOS was dated 2002-2013, so the last change was in 2013, which I think was the time Group Builder purchased the site. Carbon Media did not change the TOS after they purchased it. They did a terrible thing by reposting content under an assumed name, but we can't blame them for the poor wording on the TOS. That lies either at Chuck's feet or Group Builder.
I don't remember being notified and I've been a member since 2003.


----------



## sidepasser

The TOS terms are contradictory in nature, in one paragraph it says the content belongs to the PUBLIC domain (which means anyone out there in cyberspace). In a following paragraph it is stated that "CMG" owns all content. 

Cygnet posted a very informative piece regarding copyright LAW and how it applies to this situation. She is a long term writer and is very familiar with copyright law. *One cannot "lift" someone's work and attribute that work to another author. * That is what happened here. Unethical and illegal. Then the cover-up made things worse. 

I believe that CMG has seen the error of their ways and is trying to make things right. People are offering suggestions on how to fix things so the site will work better. Why not offer suggestions rather than simply tell people to move on. _Concerned parties are not going to "move on" until they are clear that this will not happen again._


----------



## Belfrybat

Not trying to put words in Arabian Night's mouth, but I suspect, his (her?) "move on" comment doesn't mean sweeping things under the rug but to move away from re-hashing the outrage (which we were all entitled to), to more constructive efforts -- like the new TOS and accepting that CarbonMedia has apologized repeatedly and is attempting to meet our requests.


----------



## Wanda

People that condone this should try to separate ''act'' from ''action''. If someone makes a bad decision or mistake is not earthshaking. When someone lies about it and trys to shift the blame I am hurt angry and lose all trust in those individuals.


----------



## countryfied2011

The damage has been done-- no one can go back and change it, all that can be done now is to go forward and hopefully good can come out of it. If a person is so hurt and angry that they cannot except what has happened needs to move on to another forum and let those that wish to continue here try to work it out. 

I saw this on FB yesterday and it think it fits~


----------



## arabian knight

Belfrybat said:


> Not trying to put words in Arabian Night's mouth, but I suspect, his (her?) "move on" comment doesn't mean sweeping things under the rug but to move away from re-hashing the outrage (which we were all entitled to), to more constructive efforts -- like the new TOS and accepting that CarbonMedia has apologized repeatedly and is attempting to meet our requests.


 Correct not whitewash anything at all. Time to just let it heal and let the soar scab over, not picking at it every now and then. Nothing heals up that way.


----------



## where I want to

Yah but the sore has not scabbed over for all. Personally the existence of shills disguised as routine posters has effected me more than I would have thought. I keep thinking "is this person manipulating me? If so, what does that mean?"
Time without re injury is the only cure for that.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Karen said:


> I can't believe he used the ultimate banned word and called someone ignorant. How disrespectful and unprofessional is that?


Waaaaal, we are ALL ignorant in some way or another...now STUPID...THAT should be a banned word...


PS-I'll invite anyone who wants to exchange their home emails to PM me w/it...I've done the same but have forgotten lots of folks that I sure would like to remain in contact with...CopperKid3 comes to mind...


----------



## Tricky Grama

Belfrybat said:


> Not trying to put words in Arabian Night's mouth, but I suspect, his (her?) "move on" comment doesn't mean sweeping things under the rug but to move away from re-hashing the outrage (which we were all entitled to), to more constructive efforts -- like the new TOS and accepting that CarbonMedia has apologized repeatedly and is attempting to meet our requests.


Arabian Knight is a good guy, I'm thinking he's thinking this has really been hashed out, outrage expressed, harm done...but he's got big boy pants & prolly thinks we all should put on ours. 

I am thinking how many here think its perfectly ok to have a VP of this great country who was CAUGHT plagerizing not once but twice, not on a pig forum but legal things & voted for him not once but twice...b/c that was long ago.

Just sayin'


----------



## Melissa

Good grief, don't bring politics into it, this thread will never die...


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

I just learned of this. I've not been on the board often in recent weeks. Just want to say that the "Alice" who was doing stuff wasn't me.

That is all.


----------



## painterswife

An article that you might want to read.

http://www.managingcommunities.com/...ly-turn-your-community-against-you/#more-6189


----------



## Truckinguy

This site is a precious and extensive source of information and, in my view, is quite unique in the number of topics under one roof, so to speak. I say stay and fight for it. There have already been changes made due to the strong reaction by the members here. There seem to be a great many people here who are knowledgeable on the subjects relevant to this controversy and who have stood up to the owners.

The word "family" has been used here quite a lot and, although most of you probably don't know me that well, I feel like that too. Many people have invested a lot of years in this site, as members contributing information and advice and as mods who take on the difficult job of keeping us on the straight and narrow. There have been many controversial subjects discussed here that would have gotten out of hand within a few posts elsewhere.

Those who are attracted to this site are generally independent minded, resourceful and stand up for their rights and freedoms. That is the basis for this community. I say stand and fight and when the fire dies down, this site will be better and stronger than before and less vulnerable to this happening in the future.

Melissa, if you have been hurt so deeply that you feel that you must leave, I can respect that. I have been very impressed by the outpouring of love and respect from so many of the posters here and I hope that you can find comfort in the support you have been given. My personal opinion is that you would do more to resolve the situation simply by staying and continuing the good work that you have been doing. I'm not a mod so I don't have any idea of how difficult it is to be behind the scenes on a site like this so my opinion is likely less informed than it should be! :happy2: I think you have tremendous support by many people for whatever decision you make. It's a tribute to you that you have attracted such a great group of people to this forum.


----------



## ErinP

We're famous!


----------



## Johnny Dolittle

Tricky Grama said:


> Waaaaal, we are ALL ignorant in some way or another...now STUPID...THAT should be a banned word...
> 
> 
> PS-I'll invite anyone who wants to exchange their home emails to PM me w/it...I've done the same but have forgotten lots of folks that I sure would like to remain in contact with...CopperKid3 comes to mind...



Well I never did find out why he was banned but I have been fuming about it.

I do have a big issue with Angie concerning an infraction I got 2 years ago.

Perhaps I should discuss it here out in the open ??????

Because this incident has caused me to significantly doubt that she has the ability to soundly judge when a person should receive an infraction or banning....


----------



## Muskrat

Johnny Dolittle said:


> Well I never did find out why he was banned but I have been fuming about it.
> 
> I do have a big issue with Angie concerning an infraction I got 2 years ago.
> 
> Perhaps I should discuss it here out in the open ??????
> 
> Because this incident has caused me to significantly doubt that she has the ability to soundly judge when a person should receive an infraction or banning....


Johnny, dude, Angie stepped down. No administrator, no mod.

Unless you mean retroactively?


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

Wlover said:


> An article that you might want to read.
> 
> http://www.managingcommunities.com/...ly-turn-your-community-against-you/#more-6189


Interesting to read this from an outside perspective.


----------



## Wind in Her Hair

Well, I am hopeful that something can be worked out now that the CEO is listening to us, the members, and respecting Melissa and all she has worked for. 

I have asked that my account NOT be deleted, and that removing my name from my threads will stop. We shall see. 

Alice, that was the first thing that popped into my mind - I knew it wasn't you! Not OUR Alice!


----------



## arabian knight

Muskrat said:


> Johnny, dude, Angie stepped down. No administrator, no mod.
> 
> Unless you mean retroactively?


For sure stepping down was a good gesture. And what happened years happened. Toucan't go back in time. Go forward or this will never heal.


----------



## Melissa

Well I just checked it for you and it was a 2 point infraction that is now expired and yes, you deserved it. Profanity is clearly against the rules.



Johnny Dolittle said:


> Well I never did find out why he was banned but I have been fuming about it.
> 
> I do have a big issue with Angie concerning an infraction I got 2 years ago.
> 
> Perhaps I should discuss it here out in the open ??????
> 
> Because this incident has caused me to significantly doubt that she has the ability to soundly judge when a person should receive an infraction or banning....


----------



## Melissa

Let's keep this thread focused and productive. I know we have allowed a little leeway in order of the members to vent about this situation, but the rules still apply.


----------



## Molly Mckee

I think some of you need to realize that many of the older members did not agree to the current TOS, they were here before it was written and it has been changed to become much more inclusive. Willow Girl is one of those. Even the the current TOS does not give the current management the (or anyone else) the right to take Willows posts and pictures and put them on another board and post them under another name. And in general, the TOS will not stand up in court the way it is written. By reposting like someone did could make it look like Willow was a liar, among other things as not only was it posted on another forum, under another name, but both could be easily googled. Willow's SO found the posts when he googled cow rescue or something like that. Finding it was not a deliberate action.

The problem was not handled well at first at all, when she was told basically, tough, suck it up, we will do what we want. The CEO of the new owner company has tried to fix things, but at first he was also making things worse. I don't think they realized that the TOS had been changed over the years several times, and a lot of members did not agree to the currant one. I don't think there is much question that what "Steve" or whoever plagiarized Willow's (and some others) posts was wrong, and probably illegal.
Anyway, it wasn't a simple fight over nothing important. Copyrights and ownership are an important thing to writers and artists, and should be to all of us.


----------



## Belldandy

highlands said:


> Actually, the TOS is very distinctly different than a work-for-hire contract. Work-for-hire gives copyright to the employer. The TOS can not take your copyright, merely make it so they have permission to publish the work. The original purpose of such TOS was to make it clear that the web site owner had the right to publish the comments so a nasty user couldn't later come back in the courts and claim copyright violation. The purpose was not to allow the web site to collect content that it could then later do something totally different with. Over the years if you read the TOSs you'll notice the lawyers gradually expanded them to cover more and more. But they still are not work-for-hire.



With all due respect, they are quite similar: created content, rights signed away.

Perhaps some of the 'stolen' post business has been going on for far longer, even with previous site owners, and was only recently brought to light.


----------



## Johnny Dolittle

Melissa said:


> Well I just checked it for you and it was a 2 point infraction that is now expired and yes, you deserved it. Profanity is clearly against the rules.


Ok there is an abbreviation for an expression and that abbreviation is SHTF.
It for some reason is permitted here on this site. In fact my friend Kasilofhome used it in this thread and there is a sticky in S&EP forum where SHTF is used in the title.

Back when I received the infraction Angie had initiated a thread in S&EP and in her title she used the abbreviation SHTF.

So... I had been participating in a thread in GC which concerned the "Wounded Warrior Project" which is highly advertised on TV. The thread was about questioning the legitimacy of this non-profit organization.

I sat down at the computer one evening after experiencing a bad day personally. I went to the S&EP forum and read Angies post which used a SHTF expression....

Then went to GC and discovered someone investigated that the combined saleries of the top 12 executives in this non-profit agency was about 2 million dollars.

I am an Army veteran and this discovery disgusted me and without thinking I posted something like "Thats it for me... I will put the wounded worrior project on my _ _ _ _ list". However I did not type blanks ... I typed a "S" word replacing the "i" with an "*" .... thinking it was ok since Angie had just used SHTF in her post.

A while later I wondered if I should have used that "S" word and thought I perhaps should go back and edit... but I got distracted and forgot.

About 10 days later I recieve an infraction from Angie ... my response was to inform her that she had used SHTF in her post.... leading me to believe it was ok to use the "S" word if abbreviated.

She responded by stating that Chuck (the former site owner) stated that using SHTF is ok because the "S" could stand for words other than the one describing animal excrement.

I then went to on line dictionaries and typed in SHTF.... they all stated SHTF is an abbreviation for an expression where the "S" word is a word meaning excrement.

Rules for posting state dirty, profane and vulgar words are prohibited.... There is nothing indicating that use of SHTF is permitted..... that is something that Chuck approved and Angie carried around in her head.

Personally I do not routinely use this "S" word... but I had experienced a bad day then went onto the computer where IMO Angie used it.

This issue should have raised a red flag and Angie should have realized there is a problem to remedy. She did nothing ... and let the infraction stand.

And this is why I refuse to be a forum supporter. I did complain to another moderator but was ignored.... I should have picked Cabin Fever I guess !!!


----------



## Melissa

I understand the confusion in that case. This is, in all honesty, why we have never allowed any profanity, because while in some cases a poster may feel it is warranted, you open the door to other posters wondering why it is not warranted in their case. 

Like this post, I understand that you are simply explaining what happened, although it is quite against the rules. I could make an exception and allow it to stand because I see what you are trying to do. Then later someone else will come along and say that I let you use prohibited language and there I am- stuck in the middle!

And yes that phrase has been allowed, mostly on the self-reliance areas simply because it is a short-hand way of saying that things went very badly. I have never used it and I don't really care for it. I can't recall it being used much on this forum, so it has not become an issue. 

In your case, I most likely would have just sent you a friendly warning, but each mod has their own ways. I don't necessarily think that anyone did anything wrong in your case.


----------



## SunsetSonata

Stuff sure hit the fan.


----------



## Melissa

lol, copious amounts of stuff...


----------



## Johnny Dolittle

Well in my post concerning the wounded warrior project I should have said...

"Well that does it for me ... I just put the wounded warrior on my feces list"

.... that would have been acceptable ( I think )


----------



## Wendy

I think that is what they usually say it means, stuff hits the fan. I personally would not give an infraction for cursing unless someone drops the F bomb. I usually just give a warning. If that same person continually uses bad language after being warned then I would give an infraction.


----------



## arabian knight

SunsetSonata said:


> Stuff sure hit the fan.


 Snafu

situation normal all fouled up

And we just went through a big one.


----------



## unregistered41671

Here you go Johnny. Whenever you get the urge to say it, just put this up instead.


----------



## highlands

Belldandy said:


> With all due respect, they are quite similar: created content, rights signed away.


No. The courts have hashed this out completely. Work-for-hire involves employees and employers. Members of the HT community are not employees of CMG. The TOC is completely different from works-for-hire. The original authors of the posts retain copyright. This is quite clear in the laws and case law. No rights have been signed away.

Start reading here and go as deeply as you desire:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_for_hire


----------



## okiemom

the ceo thread no longer shows up in the new posts button and I believe he has left the building.


----------



## bluefish

okiemom said:


> the ceo thread no longer shows up in the new posts button and I believe he has left the building.


I see it in new posts when ever someone makes a new post. I just saw your post complaining about not seeing it in new posts, when I clicked on new posts. After I read a thread, though, it won't come back up in new posts til someone makes a new post that I haven't read.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Melissa said:


> Good grief, don't bring politics into it, this thread will never die...


Oh, Melissa, I'm sorry!
There...zipped it.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Melissa said:


> Well I just checked it for you and it was a 2 point infraction that is now expired and yes, you deserved it. Profanity is clearly against the rules.


I "SWEAR", I told him to say "carp"!


----------



## Tricky Grama

SunsetSonata said:


> Stuff sure hit the fan.


Yeah, that would be SSHTF.


In all fairness, the 1st time I heard that expression, the person said "STUFF hit the fan"! It was a few yrs b/4 I knew what the REAL thing was...


----------



## fordy

..............I probably have the least number of Infarctions of any longterm member still actively posting ! , lol , fordy:happy2:


----------



## Muskrat

Tricky Grama said:


> I "SWEAR", I told him to say "carp"!


You must not have been clear about the species. For months, he's been stomping around, saying "Oh, trout!" The Fish & Wildlife guys picked him up for trying to kick the trout out of someone.


----------



## BlackFeather

The funny thing is most of our four letter words are from the middle English, they were commonly used words at the time but when the Norman invasion occurred the French thought the words sounded crude and insisted on French based words rather than the common English words. So the reason these words are considered bad is the fault of the French.


----------



## kasilofhome

fordy said:


> ..............I probably have the least number of Infarctions of any longterm member still actively posting ! , lol , fordy:happy2:




We might be tied or I win....I seldom win it would be nice.


----------



## wr

Molly Mckee said:


> I think some of you need to realize that many of the older members did not agree to the current TOS, they were here before it was written and it has been changed to become much more inclusive. Willow Girl is one of those. Even the the current TOS does not give the current management the (or anyone else) the right to take Willows posts and pictures and put them on another board and post them under another name. And in general, the TOS will not stand up in court the way it is written. By reposting like someone did could make it look like Willow was a liar, among other things as not only was it posted on another forum, under another name, but both could be easily googled. Willow's SO found the posts when he googled cow rescue or something like that. Finding it was not a deliberate action.
> 
> The problem was not handled well at first at all, when she was told basically, tough, suck it up, we will do what we want. The CEO of the new owner company has tried to fix things, but at first he was also making things worse. I don't think they realized that the TOS had been changed over the years several times, and a lot of members did not agree to the currant one. I don't think there is much question that what "Steve" or whoever plagiarized Willow's (and some others) posts was wrong, and probably illegal.
> Anyway, it wasn't a simple fight over nothing important. Copyrights and ownership are an important thing to writers and artists, and should be to all of us.



I'm quite sure that I didn't see a TOA when I joined but I may be wrong.


----------



## Molly Mckee

I can't remember seeing one either, but that doesn't mean much. I can't believe I'd have agreed. One of my DB has worked with copyrights and TOS ect for years and I know better.


----------



## Selena

arabian knight said:


> Snafu
> 
> situation normal all fouled up
> 
> And we just went through a big one.


Except in the real world, the "f" does not stand for foul in snafu nor in fubar. "F" and "A" seem to upset those of, shall I say, a delicate nature.


----------



## Karen

wr said:


> I'm quite sure that I didn't see a TOA when I joined but I may be wrong.


There was one, but it was only like 3 or 4 lines and super simple. I think it was something like you abide by the rules (which there was only one rule at the time, "Be Nice"), understand it is a public viewable forum, and is privately owned. Something along those lines. 

Then Chuck's attorney told him he needed to change it and boy did it get big. Then Group Builder didn't change that one but a couple of lines (they didn't even remove Chuck's address in Beckley, WV from it until I pointed it out several months into their ownership (so that one may not even valid), and then there was the first one from Carbon Media and now the present one.

At no time were any members asked or required to sign a new agreement. So whatever one you agreed to depends on when you joined the site. You are not obligated to any other one.


----------



## marytx

Thanks, Karen. I came over to this forum when it sprang up out of the ashes of the Lusenet forum. So this is all a surprise to me.


----------



## manygoatsnmore

fordy said:


> ..............I probably have the least number of Infarctions of any longterm member still actively posting ! , lol , fordy:happy2:


I don't have any, fordy! We must be very good examples for others, lol. :happy2:


----------



## Pony

wr said:


> I'm quite sure that I didn't see a TOA when I joined but I may be wrong.


We didn't have to sign one. I am very careful about EULAs. 

Sure, we agreed to "Play Nice." Not hard to do. Don't cuss. Don't be a d-bag. Be neighborly.

Not hard to do. 

Never even saw the one Chuck's legal eagle worked up. <shrug> 

I'm still debating whether to stick around. I still feel pretty raw.


----------



## RedDirt Cowgirl

Yikes! How about sparing us from that odious misogynistic insult - we hear the D word.


----------



## manygoatsnmore

RedDirt Cowgirl said:


> Yikes! How about sparing us from that odious misogynistic insult - we hear the *D word.*


Dirt? :shrug:


----------



## RedDirt Cowgirl

Oh, of course! What was I thinking?! :gaptooth:


----------



## soulsurvivor

In general it's looking as though this company has bought up significant amounts of online discussion forums and is using the information to develop android apps to sell to the general public for use on their smartphones, etc. 

The current conspiracy theory is that the Internet 2 is taking over and is similar to accepting the mark of the beast. Leave your morals and ethics at the door before entering. Artificial intelligence has neither.


----------



## hercsmama

I'm very confused, and totally undecided about all of this.
First we find out that the owners have been stealing our content/ their content/ breaking their own rules, and all rise up in righteous indignation.

Then, all of a sudden they toss some new admin at us, who comes over all way to friendly and cute, and strip Angie of all power. Or so they say, and all are suddenly bowing down to the cute new puppy, as Willow put it, and making gogglie eyes at the previously corrupt and evil site owner and his previously evil minions? It's still the same people that have been lying to us all along.
What is the deal?
I really don't understand how someone who was not believed or trusted one hour, can simply bring everyone candy and flowers, and suddenly all is right here?
I really do want to understand, been here a very long time, and BTW, I have never gotten an infraction either, so I do know how to play nice, and be respectful. But how is it that everyone is drinking the kool-aid, and just going along to get along?
I thought we all had a bit more fire than to just roll over so quickly....
Like I said, I'm very confused about the entire thing, and just don't see how it is possible, that any sincerity can be coming from a company, that has been so blatantly lieing and stealing from us for so long....:bored:


----------



## Wendy

There is still quite a bit of questionable stuff going on. I am not holding out much hope for getting things back the way they were.


----------



## Truckinguy

There has been a long term investment in this site by a great many people and it seems that it would be valuable enough to protect. If one had years worth of preps in their house and they found out that someone had been stealing them, would they just walk away? I think most would stop that person from stealing and keep an ever more vigilant eye out so that it does not happen again.


----------



## Wendy

Yeah but in this case we can't shoot the thief!


----------



## hercsmama

True, but I'd also make sure that the lieing thief couldn't ever find them again.:bored:


----------



## Truckinguy

Lol, yeah, I think I understand the situation but it's a little out of my field of expertise so I'm not sure what it would take to fight it. It's just a shame to see the long time members leave. I really like this place and hope things can get better.


----------



## Belldandy

highlands said:


> No. The courts have hashed this out completely. Work-for-hire involves employees and employers. Members of the HT community are not employees of CMG. The TOC is completely different from works-for-hire. The original authors of the posts retain copyright. This is quite clear in the laws and case law. No rights have been signed away.
> 
> Start reading here and go as deeply as you desire:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_for_hire



You are quoting the letter of the law rather than the spirit.


----------



## Roadking

Hard to stop it when they have all the cards (or ammo, as it were). But still putting up a fight.

Matt


----------



## Nevada

hercsmama said:


> I'm very confused, and totally undecided about all of this.
> First we find out that the owners have been stealing our content/ their content/ breaking their own rules, and all rise up in righteous indignation.
> 
> Then, all of a sudden they toss some new admin at us, who comes over all way to friendly and cute, and strip Angie of all power. Or so they say, and all are suddenly bowing down to the cute new puppy, as Willow put it, and making gogglie eyes at the previously corrupt and evil site owner and his previously evil minions? It's still the same people that have been lying to us all along.
> What is the deal?
> I really don't understand how someone who was not believed or trusted one hour, can simply bring everyone candy and flowers, and suddenly all is right here?
> I really do want to understand, been here a very long time, and BTW, I have never gotten an infraction either, so I do know how to play nice, and be respectful. But how is it that everyone is drinking the kool-aid, and just going along to get along?
> I thought we all had a bit more fire than to just roll over so quickly....
> Like I said, I'm very confused about the entire thing, and just don't see how it is possible, that any sincerity can be coming from a company, that has been so blatantly lieing and stealing from us for so long....:bored:


All I can say is that someone we don't know has just been handed a great deal of power over this board. I don't believe she's here to learn about gardening and hunting mushrooms, but the rest of HT seems to believe it. This is her job, and I believe that if saying that she's interested in gardening makes her job easier then that's what she'll say. It only makes sense, and that's what I would do in her shoes.

I can't say for sure how this will all turn out, but I don't like the direction this has gone. Our concerns over recent events have been answered by giving a CMG employee absolute control over HT. What could POSSIBLY go wrong!?


----------



## elkhound

its like a nuke went off .


----------



## clovis

elkhound said:


> its like a nuke went off .


The aftermath of that nuke has made the forums the cyber version of Chernobyl.


----------



## Roadking

Yup, everyone is down below in the bunker...

Matt


----------



## elkhound

clovis said:


> The the aftermath of that nuke has made the forums the cyber version of Chernobyl.



and people are scrambling in search of a fallout shelter.


----------



## Roadking

And now the conversation about the debacle has been closed below...only TOS questions will be in the new thread.

Matt


----------



## Rocktown Gal

So the CEO locks the thread because of too much noise. I asked a completely honest question. I do not consider that noise.

He was caught in another lie!


----------



## Nevada

Rocktown Gal said:


> So the CEO locks the thread because of too much noise.


Swell...


----------



## DEKE01

Rocktown Gal said:


> So the CEO locks the thread because of too much noise. I asked a completely honest question. I do not consider that noise.
> 
> He was caught in another lie!


NO, he addressed that Q. Perhaps not to your satisfaction, but he addressed it earlier. 

As to closing that thread, I agree with him. With some folk slinging stuff around about religion, ethnicity, greeks, syrians, going to war, etc, it was far too noisy. 

I would hope another thread will be opened for non-TOS topics.


----------



## Roadking

Apparently, we are just static interfering with CMG's broadcast message.
This one will probably be next.

Matt



Rocktown Gal said:


> So the CEO locks the thread because of too much noise. I asked a completely honest question. I do not consider that noise.
> 
> He was caught in another lie!


----------



## arabian knight

And with that horrible post one person did with swearing in it I can't blame him one bit in saying too much stuff going on nothing can get done. Glad that there is a new thread dedicated to what matters and that is the TOS that is the important part so something like happened earlier can't and won't happen in the future. Nobody is going to get 100% of what THEY think they want or should be done there is a middle of the road that has to be reached. Period.


----------



## Wendy

My guess is, if another thread is started it will be locked or deleted.


----------



## Wendy

> And with that horrible post one person did with swearing in it I can't blame him one bit in saying too much stuff going on nothing can get done. Glad that there is a new thread dedicated to what matters and that is the TOS that is the important part so something like happened earlier can't and won;t happen in the future.


Well, the only person that can take care of that post is Shannon & she is nowhere to be found right now.


----------



## Nevada

Wendy said:


> Well, the only person that can take care of that post is Shannon & she is nowhere to be found right now.


She's probably browsing older HT posts for gardening advice.


----------



## susieneddy

arabian knight said:


> And with that horrible post one person did with swearing in it I can't blame him one bit in saying too much stuff going on nothing can get done. Glad that there is a new thread dedicated to what matters and that is the TOS that is the important part so something like happened earlier can't and won't happen in the future. Nobody is going to get 100% of what THEY think they want or should be done there is a middle of the road that has to be reached. Period.


you mean the post where the CMG_CEO was swearing.


----------



## where I want to

The owners of this forum have the power to do what they want. As have previous owners. The trust resides in confidence in people as always. The previous owners were seen as benign and people posted pretty much without remembering they existed.
These new owners have been brought to our attention thanks to Willow Girl. Since then we have become much more aware of our status as participants. I doubt anyone having been active here will forget that. We have been made aware of our uses to the company. And that our power is limited to being a pain in the rear. 
So stay to participate under the power of someone who will be creative in using me or go away to try to find a place that won't? 
In the first place is there anywhere to go? There are smaller forums that are in private hands. For the moment anyway. But can they handle the volume of people that keeps this site lively? 
For the moment I want to know how things will change here before I abandon it. It is not that I forget but that I'm not sure of the importance of knowing a commercial and rather insensitive ownership makes that much difference to me personally. I was debating about leaving before I knew why there were people disappearing just because they were disappearing and therefore being here was becoming less valuable. Now that I understand more doesn't mean that issue has reached its final resting place.
I will wait to see what happens.


----------



## Woodpecker

Once trust is destroyed it's really hard to rebuild.


----------



## where I want to

Woodpecker said:


> Once trust is destroyed it's really hard to rebuild.


But is trust necessary? A person can leave any time they no longer value what they get here.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Truckinguy said:


> There has been a long term investment in this site by a great many people and it seems that it would be valuable enough to protect. If one had years worth of preps in their house and they found out that someone had been stealing them, would they just walk away? I think most would stop that person from stealing and keep an ever more vigilant eye out so that it does not happen again.


Post of the day award.


----------



## Muskrat

As to the TOS, isn't there a line that says something to the effect of "if you don't agree to this document, don't use this site"?

As to what was won, what was won?

All the posts declaring victories over the CEO, yep, he came across as less impressive, but what did anyone get?

He has a very nifty transfer program. It works in the main. It's been tested. It just needs some editing by someone that knows the site and has the time. 

He has the site administrator as one of his employees who has no history or connection with HT. A perfectly nice person as far as I can see but doing her job. 

He's given the members the job of re-aligning mods and defining roles and writing rules, etc. You want to delay action, turn things over to a committee. 

Somebody has to define "transparency". See previous note. 

Somebody has to define "privacy". 

Next somebody gets upset, he can say "But that's how you set it up."

For all the "we" that's been used, it mostly meant "I".
Do you think he's figured out this group can't reach one? We don't even agree what a TOS is (are), much less what we want in one.


----------



## arabian knight

susieneddy said:


> you mean the post where the CMG_CEO was swearing.


No where Downhome had a meltdown. I see it finally got deleted. Good


----------



## susieneddy

I missed that


----------



## Nevada

where I want to said:


> But is trust necessary? A person can leave any time they no longer value what they get here.


And that's where the power of the membership lies. You see, HT only has value to CMG if people post and browse here. If members migrate to another location then HT stops generating revenue for CMG.


----------



## Melissa

My point in the INTRODUCTION post, was that is was not really the appropriate place to discuss site issues. It was an introduction...


----------



## Elizabeth

I guess we should all just stop using this site.

I was one of the first members of the original Countryside magazine forum, back in, I think, 1998 or 1999. That was a great site, which was, unfortunately, ruined by some not very nice people. 

Then it morphed into the HT forum, which has undergone many undesirable changes, IMO. I still pop on here once in awhile, but it is not like the old days.

I don't have time to search around the internet right now, but I am sure that there are other, smaller, less commercial forums around which would welcome new members if we all decided to move.

I never signed on as a member in order to enrich someone else through my contributions. I think that the purpose of this forum had diverged with my own interests and it is now, finally, time for me to move on. Will post back if I find another forum to join.


----------



## fordy

Woodpecker said:


> Once trust is destroyed it's really hard to rebuild.


 ............True , but only for those who have knowledge of the transgressions of the current , corporate ownership ! The large majority of NON participating members will be mostly Ignorant of the true Dimensions of the situation because they don't visit that much so it won't effect them at all . 
............With the passage of time the dust will settle , most of these threads will be removed from the website and lost forever ! I would encourage Melissa to move this thread to the top of the Family Section as a Sticky so we can continue this discussion for as long as 'WE' see fit . , fordy


----------



## where I want to

Woodpecker said:


> Once trust is destroyed it's really hard to rebuild.


I've already changed my mind some about this. I just read a post and asked myself if the person was saying this because they were a company shill. Then I noticed it was a long time poster who a few days ago I would have taken at face value. So trust matters. 
But I guess I'm still not ready to go until it's been enough time to see if I can let my paranoia go and if it is in truth just paranoia.


----------



## Mike in Ohio

Roadking said:


> Hard to stop it when they have all the cards (or ammo, as it were). But still putting up a fight.
> 
> Matt


You are wrong Matt. First let me digress... I had every intention of not getting drawn into this controversy other than my post indicating that I was resigning as moderator of the beekeeping forum and my post in the mod forum making that resignation. I still intend avoiding getting into the back and forth on all the various threads.

HT is not simply a website or a set of forums or a corporate property. It is in large measure a community that transcends those things. Many of us know each other in meat space and/or interact with each other in other forums and groups besides HT. Think of www.homesteadingtoday.com as a place (a restaurant, whatever) where we all agree to meet. If a bunch of people decided to meet somewhere else (pick a place) instead of over here (HT) then the community goes on regardless.

I've already expressed my distrust of Carbon Media. Having said that, perhaps they have learned a lesson - perhaps not. I may resume active participation or I may not. It depends on how things play out.

The HT community is theirs to lose if they don't figure out that while they own the HT website, they don't own the people that have chosen to make HT a gathering place. If all the regulars left then all Mr. Chaudhary has is a website with increasingly stale content. I'm not writing this to advocate that folks jump ship, I'm just pointing out that CM does not have as strong a hand as some might think.

Mike


----------



## Melissa

Right, the site only has value if it has people of value on it. And with the way things are going, there may not be many left...


----------



## sidepasser

No post 1153 where there were some really nasty words and comments, even I, old "can take pretty much anything" reported the post and that may be the first time in my HT history that I have ever reported a post.

I, frankly, was embarrassed by the language as children can read here.


----------



## blooba

The way I look at it is no matter what the CEO says. This guy was an employee of his company, doing what he was getting paid to do. The company would not pay someone to do something that was not company condoned.

As much as I hate my intellectual content being copied I am even more upset over possibly wasting my time replying to robots. I don't mind helping people but wasting my time just to give a company more advertising power really ticks me off.

We need the ability to remove our prior posts. I don't care who they think who "owns" them. The company needs to cut their losses due to them losing our trust and move on. If they want to keep the forum they can have it. We can go elsewhere. Although I am not leaving without taking my content with me.


----------



## where I want to

blooba said:


> The way I look at it is no matter what the CEO says. This guy was an employee of his company, doing what he was getting paid to do. The company would not pay someone to do something that was not company condoned.
> 
> As much as I hate my intellectual content being copied I am even more upset over possibly wasting my time replying to robots. I don't mind helping people but wasting my time just to give a company more advertising power really ticks me off.
> 
> We need the ability to remove our prior posts. I don't care who they think who "owns" them. The company needs to cut their losses due to them losing our trust and move on. If they want to keep the forum they can have it. We can go elsewhere. Although I am not leaving without taking my content with me.


What does a robot post look like? Like WG's pirated cow post only?


----------



## blooba

where I want to said:


> What does a robot post look like? Like WG's pirated cow post only?


That's the thing, we have no idea what posts have no face behind them. I would like to think all posts had a face behind them, but her post proves this company has no morals so who knows how many robots are on this site.


----------



## Roadking

I now am getting fly by surveys slide into the center of my screen...is this the "enhanced user experience" ?

Matt


----------



## fordy

Roadking said:


> I now am getting fly by surveys slide into the center of my screen...is this the "enhanced user experience" ?
> 
> Matt


 .............I have Ad Bloc installed and I don't see any ads at all ! , fordy


----------



## Roadking

So do I fordy... must need an upgrade.

Matt


----------



## okiemom

Many on here have meet in real life, have become long time friends, dated and even married. These people are not just faceless typescript. Pen pals are not fake. 

Anyone remember the hated garden gnome that went cross country by the help of members picking it it up from one location and delivering it to another? Never did find out if it made it to the final destination. I had fun for many months tracking it on its journeys and see how it worked with member meeting each other IRL. I even wanted to help it along but, I think someone beat me too it. 

That loss of that type of camaraderie is why I am grieving today.





Mike in Ohio said:


> You are wrong Matt. First let me digress... I had every intention of not getting drawn into this controversy other than my post indicating that I was resigning as moderator of the beekeeping forum and my post in the mod forum making that resignation. I still intend avoiding getting into the back and forth on all the various threads.
> 
> HT is not simply a website or a set of forums or a corporate property. It is in large measure a community that transcends those things. Many of us know each other in meat space and/or interact with each other in other forums and groups besides HT. Think of www.homesteadingtoday.com as a place (a restaurant, whatever) where we all agree to meet. If a bunch of people decided to meet somewhere else (pick a place) instead of over here (HT) then the community goes on regardless.
> 
> I've already expressed my distrust of Carbon Media. Having said that, perhaps they have learned a lesson - perhaps not. I may resume active participation or I may not. It depends on how things play out.
> 
> The HT community is theirs to lose if they don't figure out that while they own the HT website, they don't own the people that have chosen to make HT a gathering place. If all the regulars left then all Mr. Chaudhary has is a website with increasingly stale content. I'm not writing this to advocate that folks jump ship, I'm just pointing out that CM does not have as strong a hand as some might think.
> 
> Mike


----------



## Pony

blooba said:


> That's the thing, we have no idea what posts have no face behind them. I would like to think all posts had a face behind them, but her post proves this company has no morals so who knows how many robots are on this site.


I remember when we had The Great Sock Puppet Controversy a few years back. It was unpleasant, but nothing like this. This is bad because there's an outside force exerting pressure on our community.


----------



## Molly Mckee

While I agree with many posts here, I would have closed the CEO thread when it got abusive. That is not who the majority of us are. A few people ruined what I will chose to believe was well intentioned. The jury is still out as far as I am concerned, but there were some posts on that thread that were uncalled for (to say the least) and allowed to stand.


----------



## mnn2501

Johnny Dolittle said:


> I do have a big issue with Angie concerning an infraction I got 2 years ago.
> 
> Perhaps I should discuss it here out in the open ??????
> 
> Because this incident has caused me to significantly doubt that she has the ability to soundly judge when a person should receive an infraction or banning....


She has stepped down and if your infraction is 2 years old it no longer counts.
So what would be the purpose of discussing it or her?

Lets just see how things are going forward.


----------



## Wendy

Well, as far as some of the posts in the CEO thread that needed deleted, only the administrator has the power to do that in that forum. Otherwise all the mods I know would have slashed a bunch of the posts for language, including the CEO's!


----------



## Pony

okiemom said:


> Many on here have meet in real life, have become long time friends, dated and even married. These people are not just faceless typescript. Pen pals are not fake.
> 
> Anyone remember the hated garden gnome that went cross country by the help of members picking it it up from one location and delivering it to another? Never did find out if it made it to the final destination. I had fun for many months tracking it on its journeys and see how it worked with member meeting each other IRL. I even wanted to help it along but, I think someone beat me too it.
> 
> That loss of that type of camaraderie is why I am grieving today.


What was that darned gnome's name? Elfie? Oh, and that little Dutch girl consort of his, Heidi!

We had it at our place up north for a while. I think it was Ann in Wisc who finally picked it up and moved it along... Don't have pics of it anymore, but that was hilarious.

So many fun times, and sad times, too.

We helped others out in times of need, grieved when members died... Old Hoot, Ken Scharabok, Minikin... so many...


----------



## WildHorseLuvr

Mike in Ohio said:


> You are wrong Matt. First let me digress... I had every intention of not getting drawn into this controversy other than my post indicating that I was resigning as moderator of the beekeeping forum and my post in the mod forum making that resignation. I still intend avoiding getting into the back and forth on all the various threads.
> 
> HT is not simply a website or a set of forums or a corporate property. It is in large measure a community that transcends those things. Many of us know each other in meat space and/or interact with each other in other forums and groups besides HT. Think of www.homesteadingtoday.com as a place (a restaurant, whatever) where we all agree to meet. If a bunch of people decided to meet somewhere else (pick a place) instead of over here (HT) then the community goes on regardless.
> 
> I've already expressed my distrust of Carbon Media. Having said that, perhaps they have learned a lesson - perhaps not. I may resume active participation or I may not. It depends on how things play out.
> 
> The HT community is theirs to lose if they don't figure out that while they own the HT website, they don't own the people that have chosen to make HT a gathering place. If all the regulars left then all Mr. Chaudhary has is a website with increasingly stale content. I'm not writing this to advocate that folks jump ship, I'm just pointing out that CM does not have as strong a hand as some might think.
> 
> Mike


An EXCELLENT post!


----------



## oldmania

I am pretty quiet here and don't have anything to add to this controversy. I do want to say that I have gotten crossed eyes and whiplash just trying to keep up.


----------



## okiemom

I'm guessing around 35+ hours for me. What about anyone else? Is this loyal or pathetic? I am not sure anymore.


----------



## Muskrat

That's it. A second article, this one at Plagiarism something, referencing and linked to the previous article, and with HT members commenting. 

Ebeny farm blogpost also about plagiarism and TOS, the author had a disagreement with highlands, comes up on Google. 

We're a hit on Google. Now, Homesteading Today and plagiarism are forever linked. And it wasn't Carbon Media that did this part. It's been said that trust lost is hard to regain. Well, a reputation lost on the Internet can never be regained. 

NOW the advertisers will leave. 

I deleted the rest of this post and probably should have deleted all of it. But I so seldom do the smart thing.


----------



## soulsurvivor

Here's another piece of kindling for the fire. Be forewarned the language is scattered with a few choice words not allowed on this forum:

http://www.velospace.org/forums/discussion/5887/2/what-happened-to-velospace/


----------



## Belfrybat

Umm, *soulsurvivor*, unless the behaviour and conduct part of the forum has changed it is not allowed to link to a post with inappropriate words. I found that out the hard way when I got an infraction a couple of years ago for doing so. I know the mods said they would go easy for a while, but let's not take advantage.


----------



## Nevada

mnn2501 said:


> She has stepped down and if your infraction is 2 years old it no longer counts.
> So what would be the purpose of discussing it or her?
> 
> Lets just see how things are going forward.


Yes, that's all we can do now. It's over.

A CMG employee is now the site admin with total czar authority, and the TOS has been rewritten to CMG's liking without mod input. They can make all the promises we ask for, but they'll just turn around and do what they want anyway.

Seriously, what's left to fight over?


----------



## MO_cows

Nevada said:


> Yes, that all we can do now. It's over.
> 
> A CMG employee is now the site admin with total czar authority, and the TOS has been rewritten to CMG's liking without mod input. They can make all the promises we ask for, but they'll just turn around and do what they want anyway.
> 
> Seriously, what's left to fight over?


But at least you're not bitter........


----------



## seedspreader

Mike in Ohio said:


> You are wrong Matt. First let me digress... I had every intention of not getting drawn into this controversy other than my post indicating that I was resigning as moderator of the beekeeping forum and my post in the mod forum making that resignation. I still intend avoiding getting into the back and forth on all the various threads.
> 
> HT is not simply a website or a set of forums or a corporate property. It is in large measure a community that transcends those things. Many of us know each other in meat space and/or interact with each other in other forums and groups besides HT. Think of www.homesteadingtoday.com as a place (a restaurant, whatever) where we all agree to meet. If a bunch of people decided to meet somewhere else (pick a place) instead of over here (HT) then the community goes on regardless.
> 
> I've already expressed my distrust of Carbon Media. Having said that, perhaps they have learned a lesson - perhaps not. I may resume active participation or I may not. It depends on how things play out.
> 
> The HT community is theirs to lose if they don't figure out that while they own the HT website, they don't own the people that have chosen to make HT a gathering place. If all the regulars left then all Mr. Chaudhary has is a website with increasingly stale content. I'm not writing this to advocate that folks jump ship, I'm just pointing out that CM does not have as strong a hand as some might think.
> 
> Mike


This is truth. Mike and a large group of us have met (and will continue to although not as often as we'd like) in the real world.

This is a crossroads for a lot of different people on different journeys. What makes (made?) it special is the people. To some folks it is just a forum. To others... much more. I've had people in my church, in my house, in my ministry that I've met because we crossed paths here... and we stuck it out. Threads that we disagreed in, others that we stuck up for each other in. 

These are people I interact with regularly through many other sites. People that help each other, seek each other's counsel and friendship.

But that magic of HT is because of us... not this site. This site doesn't need to be "saved" by anyone except those seeking to gain a profit. And I'm not against profit and ads, but I am against greed and power plays.

Our profit is measured in relationships, awesome projects, skills learned and shared and community.

There ARE other places where that is possible.

It's nice here because we have many of the ingredients needed to make our favorite meals, but if it tastes too different we can eat elsewhere.

If CMG said they were shutting down the site today... I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of us would find each other. 

I hope that CMG is beginning to understand that this isn't just a "forum" and we're not really just "enthusiast". It's a lifestyle and community.

Don't get me wrong... there ARE enthusiast... they come, register and go. The ones that add that valuable content and develop the relationships... and meet in real life... THAT'S the heart of this community.

When you betray that heart... you have to win that heart back.

Willow girl and I are friends. We don't agree on a whole lot of things politically, maybe less socially, but we are friends. I take it personal when someone does something to my friends.

I'll take this moment too to say this... Just as I don't agree with everything WG says or does... I have other friends that I don't agree with either... but they're still friends.

I voted with my feet long before Angie became the Admin here because I felt the change in the air. I don't agree with what happened here... but the thing about friends is sometimes we have to say... Hey... You made a mistake but I'm still you're friend. Angie... I'm still you're friend.

There is great power in GRACE toward individuals. I have different standards toward companies. I'm with Mike... 

Sign me,

Waiting to see


----------



## soulsurvivor

Belfrybat said:


> Umm, *soulsurvivor*, unless the behaviour and conduct part of the forum has changed it is not allowed to link to a post with inappropriate words. I found that out the hard way when I got an infraction a couple of years ago for doing so. I know the mods said they would go easy for a while, but let's not take advantage.


You're right. I should just summarize it myself so there are no bad words to deal with. The link to the Velospace Bike Forums is from a post I read somewhere in all the discussion here at HT and I apologize for not remembering who/where that post was made, but it was just the link and no discussion about it. So later today I read the link and found it really interesting because there are Velospace forum members talking about how their bike forum was sold to Group Builder and then sold to Carbon Media. The explanation is being made in a post by greg/admin who was the original owner and now his account is being used by Angie/greg/admin explaining how the forums were transferred and where they now stand. The Angie/greg/admin wants to help with getting the forums active again and is asking the members for input about that. The members are quite upset because of the push of ads that have nothing to do with biking, the loss of membership, and they are appalled at ads that promote ******* 4x4 and hunting sites. . . bad words don't seem to bother them much though.... It's all a mini me of what's happening here at HT. And they have an Angie too.


----------



## Nevada

seedspreader said:


> I hope that CMG is beginning to understand that this isn't just a "forum" and we're not really just "enthusiast". It's a lifestyle and community.


Why would they think that? They got total control of the board.


----------



## seedspreader

Nevada said:


> Why would they think that? They got total control of the board.


No... they have control over the domain...

They don't control me or direct me.

I've lived my life for a few years now without HT... but still with the people of HT.

I can do that and meet other people and form community elsewhere.

Bee's make honey because it's what they do, but they have to be willing to let you harvest the honey if you want them to keep making honey... the only other option is to destroy the hive and the bees to get the honey.

That works... once.

Don't be so negative Nevada.


----------



## Forerunner

Nevada said:


> Seriously, what's left to fight over?


The door ?


----------



## stef

Molly Mckee said:


> It happened for a couple of weeks, then went back to being accessible to everyone.


That is correct. I have to sign in when using my laptop or desktop to read the threads. However, I can access any of the forums/threads without signing in when using my tablet.


----------



## TRellis

Forerunner said:


> The door ?


And the loser in the fight to get to the door is the poor person that has to make sure to turn off the lights...

TRellis


----------



## Suzyq2u

Been busy doing stuff and things the last 24hrs...what'd I miss?
:icecream:


----------



## Johnny Dolittle

I just want to let the new owner know how much I appreciated the one question poll pop up I just had to close


----------



## Mike in Ohio

Suzyq2u said:


> Been busy doing stuff and things the last 24hrs...what'd I miss?
> :icecream:


Oggie posted somewhere about laying down in a pile of squirming kittens.


----------



## TRellis

Mike in Ohio said:


> Oggie posted somewhere about laying down in a pile of squirming kittens.


... and he liked it!!!


----------



## seedspreader

Johnny Dolittle said:


> I just want to let the new owner know how much I appreciated the one question poll pop up I just had to close


I haven't seen that yet... what was the question?


----------



## Johnny Dolittle

They wanted to know what I thought of the underwear advertisement


----------



## Nevada

Johnny Dolittle said:


> They wanted to know what I thought of the underwear advertisement


Well, do we get to take a vote on underwear ads? LOL


----------



## Johnny Dolittle

seedspreader said:


> I haven't seen that yet... what was the question?


Also ... I just posted a pic of my 4wd on the thread you started

Now I am seeing automotive dealership ads


----------



## Johnny Dolittle

The ad featured jocky shorts in 3 colors
....I said it stinks


----------



## Alice In TX/MO

They weren't clean shorts? Do we have smell-o-vision now?


----------



## Johnny Dolittle

Yes ... the site stinks since Carbon bought it


----------



## Johnny Dolittle

The dealership ad was...

Kenny Ross Chevrolet (Pittsburgh area)

I love this targeted advertising

I drive Fords

... and I wear boxer shorts


----------



## Nevada

Johnny Dolittle said:


> The ad featured jocky shorts in 3 colors
> ....I said it stinks


I was thinking Victoria's Secret...


----------



## Johnny Dolittle

seedspreader said:


> I haven't seen that yet... what was the question?


You will get customized targeted ads soon

... but only if you keep posting so they can collect more data on you


----------



## arabian knight

Johnny Dolittle said:


> You will get customized targeted ads soon
> 
> ... but only if you keep posting so they can collect more data on you


You bet targeted ads You bet those advertisers are getting smart. Do they know location just from seeing your IP address.
I see LOCAL ads in my area when viewing on Youtube..

Local ads from Local car dealerships to Ashley Furniture to even Menards. ALL coming in and ON Youtubes before the video starts. And ALL are in my area.


----------



## seedspreader

Johnny Dolittle said:


> You will get customized targeted ads soon
> 
> ... but only if you keep posting so they can collect more data on you


No... I use adblock. I don't see any ads....


----------



## arabian knight

seedspreader said:


> No... I use adblock. I don't see any ads....


No, I don't see ads on this site either. 
A good adblocker takes care of that~! Well worth the few minutes it takes to download and you never know it is working in the background such a small program as that.


----------



## Johnny Dolittle

wonder what I said in a post to make them think I needed underwear ?


----------



## RedDirt Cowgirl

Is this what surprised someone?

"We obviously own the site and all its content, but we should not be re-posting that content on other forums. Going forward, we will amend our terms and conditions to protect your privacy on the site so we cannot do that again. The existing stuff about being a community-run site is frankly all legacy information that was never updated."

Straight from the horse's - well, you know now, we don't use any A words around here.


----------



## Pony

RedDirt Cowgirl said:


> Is this what surprised someone?
> 
> "We obviously own the site and all its content, but we should not be re-posting that content on other forums. Going forward, we will amend our terms and conditions to protect your privacy on the site so we cannot do that again. The existing stuff about being a community-run site is frankly all legacy information that was never updated."
> 
> Straight from the horse's - well, you know now, we don't use any A words around here.


Woof. I missed that one in all the drama.

"The existing stuff about being a community-run site is frankly all legacy information that was never updated."

Dang. That grinds my gears - with sand, no less. How dismissive and invalidating.

We may not use the A words here, but "patoot" still works.


----------



## Pony

seedspreader said:


> No... I use adblock. I don't see any ads....


Certain versions of Linux help, too.


----------



## Pony

soulsurvivor said:


> Here's another piece of kindling for the fire. Be forewarned the language is scattered with a few choice words not allowed on this forum:
> 
> http://www.velospace.org/forums/discussion/5887/2/what-happened-to-velospace/


Dang. Deja vu all over again...


----------



## Selena

Belfrybat said:


> Umm, *soulsurvivor*, unless the behaviour and conduct part of the forum has changed it is not allowed to link to a post with inappropriate words. I found that out the hard way when I got an infraction a couple of years ago for doing so. I know the mods said they would go easy for a while, but let's not take advantage.


Somewhat like a catholic school but the penguins, oops I mean nuns, don't wear habits.


----------



## HOTW

This all reminds me.of many years ago when I first got on the Net and found a site called acmepet, it was a small site then and it slwoly went from neing only a dog forum to a.multi pet forum. We had a.lot of great things similar to this site just about pers (well and a non pet related forum that got pretty intense at times) Fast forward to a few ne owners lots of growth and a big pet companybought it and pulled ery similar wttitudes and now it no longer exists because the community that made it great deserted.it or no longerposted all the great info because the company claimed it owned all content and we the writer had no say in the copyright. Search the wayback machine amd you will find acmepet and as the years went by the changes that destroyed it. I don post a lot but i have leqrned a lot here and it would be a shame if this site went down the tube as i have found it to be on of the best!


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

RedDirt Cowgirl said:


> "We obviously own the site and all its content, but we should not be re-posting that content on other forums. Going forward, we will amend our terms and conditions to protect your privacy on the site so we cannot do that again. The existing stuff about being a community-run site is frankly all legacy information that was never updated."


I hate it when quotes are taken out of context. Do you still have the thread & post# on that one?

IIRC the CEO was talking about the wording of the old TOS that had not been updated. Since then there is another TOS in place.


----------



## willow_girl

Interesting. Tonight I moseyed over to www.cattleforum.com and tried to log in. Instead of seeing the forum, I got the following message:


> You have been banned for the following reason:
> No reason was specified.
> Date the ban will be lifted: Never


It's almost as if I did something wrong ... :huh:


----------



## fixitguy

willow_girl said:


> Interesting. Tonight I moseyed over to www.cattleforum.com and tried to log in. Instead of seeing the forum, I got the following message:
> 
> 
> It's almost as if I did something wrong ... :huh:


So you are a member of the site?


----------



## CMG_CEO

See my post on velospace in my open forum thread and rather than make presumptions please just ask me directly. I'm here to answer questions, so it's better for everyone to just air it out directly. Thanks!


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

CMG_CEO said:


> See my post on velospace in my open forum thread a


Post # 28


----------



## willow_girl

duplicate post ... computer acting up


----------



## willow_girl

fixitguy said:


> So you are a member of the site?


I wasn't -- I didn't even know about that forum -- prior to Numb accidentally discovering "Alice's" impersonation of me on it when he Googled something like "Krisha cow rescue" looking for the post I had made here.

"Alice" had also misappropriated another thread of mine from HT, in which I talked about a newborn calf that had disappeared from the farm where I work. I believe the title of that thread was "A sad mystery solved."

At the time Numb and I made this discovery, I registered at www.cattleforum.com and posted in "Alice's" threads, asking who she was and why she was impersonating me! Then I came over here and posed a similar question the administration forum, which was what touched off this whole ... well, I can't use the word I have in mind here.  

In all the hoopla of the past week, I'd forgotten to go back to cattleforum.com to see if there had been any response to my posts. 

When I tried to do so tonight, I discovered I had been permanently banned. 

Gee, it's almost like I did something wrong ... :bored:


----------



## vicker

You're branded now, trouble maker.


----------



## ErinP

HOTW said:


> This all reminds me.of many years ago when I first got on the Net and found a site called acmepet, it was a small site then and it slwoly went from neing only a dog forum to a.multi pet forum. We had a.lot of great things similar to this site just about pers (well and a non pet related forum that got pretty intense at times) Fast forward to a few ne owners lots of growth and a big pet companybought it and pulled ery similar wttitudes and now it no longer exists because the community that made it great deserted.it or no longerposted all the great info because the company claimed it owned all content and we the writer had no say in the copyright. Search the wayback machine amd you will find acmepet and as the years went by the changes that destroyed it. I don post a lot but i have leqrned a lot here and it would be a shame if this site went down the tube as i have found it to be on of the best!



AcmePet...Now there's a forum I havent thought about in a while! Who was it that bought us? petco? petsMart? 
I cant remember...
Non-pet, as I recall, was actually Animal Rights of some sort, and it did indeed get fun lol


----------



## Tricky Grama

Pony said:


> What was that darned gnome's name? Elfie? Oh, and that little Dutch girl consort of his, Heidi!
> 
> We had it at our place up north for a while. I think it was Ann in Wisc who finally picked it up and moved it along... Don't have pics of it anymore, but that was hilarious.
> 
> So many fun times, and sad times, too.
> 
> We helped others out in times of need, grieved when members died... Old Hoot, Ken Scharabok, Minikin... so many...


Who's been here long enuf to remember the Platypus threads that turned into a whole FORUM!!?


----------



## soulsurvivor

willow_girl said:


> I wasn't -- I didn't even know about that forum -- prior to Numb accidentally discovering "Alice's" impersonation of me on it when he Googled something like "Krisha cow rescue" looking for the post I had made here.
> 
> "Alice" had also misappropriated another thread of mine from HT, in which I talked about a newborn calf that had disappeared from the farm where I work. I believe the title of that thread was "A sad mystery solved."
> 
> At the time Numb and I made this discovery, I registered at www.cattleforum.com and posted in "Alice's" threads, asking who she was and why she was impersonating me! Then I came over here and posed a similar question the administration forum, which was what touched off this whole ... well, I can't use the word I have in mind here.
> 
> In all the hoopla of the past week, I'd forgotten to go back to cattleforum.com to see if there had been any response to my posts.
> 
> When I tried to do so tonight, I discovered I had been permanently banned.
> 
> Gee, it's almost like I did something wrong ... :bored:


You might want to use a different computer and register as a new member. Doing a hard copy printout wouldn't hurt either. I really get nervous with corporates that act like this. You never know when they'll make up something awful to frame you and charge you with terrorism and stuff. What this corporate is doing is a form of identity theft.


----------



## Tricky Grama

seedspreader said:


> This is truth. Mike and a large group of us have met (and will continue to although not as often as we'd like) in the real world.
> 
> This is a crossroads for a lot of different people on different journeys. What makes (made?) it special is the people. To some folks it is just a forum. To others... much more. I've had people in my church, in my house, in my ministry that I've met because we crossed paths here... and we stuck it out. Threads that we disagreed in, others that we stuck up for each other in.
> 
> These are people I interact with regularly through many other sites. People that help each other, seek each other's counsel and friendship.
> 
> But that magic of HT is because of us... not this site. This site doesn't need to be "saved" by anyone except those seeking to gain a profit. And I'm not against profit and ads, but I am against greed and power plays.
> 
> Our profit is measured in relationships, awesome projects, skills learned and shared and community.
> 
> There ARE other places where that is possible.
> 
> It's nice here because we have many of the ingredients needed to make our favorite meals, but if it tastes too different we can eat elsewhere.
> 
> If CMG said they were shutting down the site today... I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of us would find each other.
> 
> I hope that CMG is beginning to understand that this isn't just a "forum" and we're not really just "enthusiast". It's a lifestyle and community.
> 
> Don't get me wrong... there ARE enthusiast... they come, register and go. The ones that add that valuable content and develop the relationships... and meet in real life... THAT'S the heart of this community.
> 
> When you betray that heart... you have to win that heart back.
> 
> Willow girl and I are friends. We don't agree on a whole lot of things politically, maybe less socially, but we are friends. I take it personal when someone does something to my friends.
> 
> I'll take this moment too to say this... Just as I don't agree with everything WG says or does... I have other friends that I don't agree with either... but they're still friends.
> 
> I voted with my feet long before Angie became the Admin here because I felt the change in the air. I don't agree with what happened here... but the thing about friends is sometimes we have to say... Hey... You made a mistake but I'm still you're friend. Angie... I'm still you're friend.
> 
> There is great power in GRACE toward individuals. I have different standards toward companies. I'm with Mike...
> 
> Sign me,
> 
> Waiting to see


Post if the week award.


----------



## Tricky Grama

willow_girl said:


> I wasn't -- I didn't even know about that forum -- prior to Numb accidentally discovering "Alice's" impersonation of me on it when he Googled something like "Krisha cow rescue" looking for the post I had made here.
> 
> "Alice" had also misappropriated another thread of mine from HT, in which I talked about a newborn calf that had disappeared from the farm where I work. I believe the title of that thread was "A sad mystery solved."
> 
> At the time Numb and I made this discovery, I registered at www.cattleforum.com and posted in "Alice's" threads, asking who she was and why she was impersonating me! Then I came over here and posed a similar question the administration forum, which was what touched off this whole ... well, I can't use the word I have in mind here.
> 
> In all the hoopla of the past week, I'd forgotten to go back to cattleforum.com to see if there had been any response to my posts.
> 
> When I tried to do so tonight, I discovered I had been permanently banned.
> 
> Gee, it's almost like I did something wrong ... :bored:


Well, that was not right, what ever happened...betcha wasn't YOUR fault, tho!! Too much carp goin' on...I think you're handling the whole mess better'n anyone!
Just let me tell ya this: DO NOT LEAVE HERE!


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## HOTW

ErinP said:


> AcmePet...Now there's a forum I havent thought about in a while! Who was it that bought us? petco? petsMart?
> I cant remember...
> Non-pet, as I recall, was actually Animal Rights of some sort, and it did indeed get fun lol


PetSmart bought it and ruined it, I can see it happenin here as the owners have no clue that it is not just the content that .akes a site but the community! I used to post as Howl of the Wild on acmepet, do you remmeber the Halloween party we had one year where we came as our pets?

Non Pet was created to keep general talk off the other boards although itnever quite suceeded!


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## Pony

willow_girl said:


> I wasn't -- I didn't even know about that forum -- prior to Numb accidentally discovering "Alice's" impersonation of me on it when he Googled something like "Krisha cow rescue" looking for the post I had made here.
> 
> "Alice" had also misappropriated another thread of mine from HT, in which I talked about a newborn calf that had disappeared from the farm where I work. I believe the title of that thread was "A sad mystery solved."
> 
> At the time Numb and I made this discovery, I registered at www.cattleforum.com and posted in "Alice's" threads, asking who she was and why she was impersonating me! Then I came over here and posed a similar question the administration forum, which was what touched off this whole ... well, I can't use the word I have in mind here.
> 
> In all the hoopla of the past week, I'd forgotten to go back to cattleforum.com to see if there had been any response to my posts.
> 
> When I tried to do so tonight, I discovered I had been permanently banned.
> 
> Gee, it's almost like I did something wrong ... :bored:


*THIS sort of bull pucky is what makes me leery of trusting anything we hear from corporate.

Is this being addressed? Why did it happen? Is Willow Girl permanently banned to cover up some more sleight of hand and plagiarism? 

CEO dude, are you going to address this issue?

I'd like to add that this sort of thing does NOT build trust, and certainly makes people consider taking their toys and going home. *


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## painterswife

Pony said:


> *THIS sort of bull pucky is what makes me leery of trusting anything we hear from corporate.
> 
> Is this being addressed? Why did it happen? Is Willow Girl permanently banned to cover up some more sleight of hand and plagiarism?
> 
> CEO dude, are you going to address this issue?
> 
> I'd like to add that this sort of thing does NOT build trust, and certainly makes people consider taking their toys and going home. *


It is all on Angie. She did it here and she will do it there. The only way it will stop is if the boss gets wind of it and does not approve.

Banning those that are checking on whether you are keeping your word and not plagiarizing is another unethical practice.


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## RedDirt Cowgirl

MullersLaneFarm said:


> I hate it when quotes are taken out of context. Do you still have the thread & post# on that one?
> 
> IIRC the CEO was talking about the wording of the old TOS that had not been updated. Since then there is another TOS in place.


It was from Melissa's post #191 on this thread - a patronizing expression (not you, Melissa!) of what Nevada reminds us of.

_When someone posts original content on this site, the content enters the public domain._
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/faq...q#faq_who_owns


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## billinwv

willow_girl said:


> Interesting. Tonight I moseyed over to www.cattleforum.com and tried to log in. Instead of seeing the forum, I got the following message:
> 
> 
> It's almost as if I did something wrong ... :huh:


So, I just visited Cattleforum.com and could view any thread I wanted except those pertaining to HT. There were two on the home page. Well, I joined and STILL was denied access these threads. No problem with any other I tried. I can only assume they are tracking my ISP information and don't want me to see these posts? Would love some comments. Banning Willow is loading the straws on the camels back pretty heavy anyway. Are they going so far as to block my access because I am a member here?


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## unregistered65598

Originally Posted by CMG_CEO View Post
I will have them lift the bans today. However, if the idea is to try to go in and get another forum all ramped up and cause issues we will need to do something about it and the user/IP address will likely be banned on all of our forums as someone who is just trying to destroy our communities. As long as that is clearly understood I have no issues with cross-visitation. We completely welcome active contributors as long as that is the intent. If sabotage is the intent, it will not be tolerated and will result in bans across every property we own. Bans will be lifted by EOD today. As I'm asking you to trust me on resolving this mess, I need to trust you. 

Thanks,

Hyaat

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/ho...ents-support/536212-cmg-ceo-open-forum-3.html

Post#48


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## Pony

Checking up to make sure there aren't more acts of plagiarism, or to see if the issue is being addressed on the other site(s) is hardly attempting to rouse the rabble. 

Why are we being treated as though we're the untrustworthy ones? Insisting on accountability is laudable. Trying to stop that is underhanded.

Surely the management is going to make sure that the other site(s) understand what went down, and the measures to prevent it from happening again, yes?


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## willow_girl

Here is the response I posted in the CEO's thread, FWIW:



> I have been a member of this site since 2002 and have made over 14,000 posts. In all that time, I've racked up a total of five infractions, the last in July 2011. I don't think that's too bad, considering that probably 50 percent of my posts have been in Politics or General Chat. LOL
> 
> Why should you (or anyone else) think that I'm some kind of troublemaker?


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## Pony

I went to CMG's site.

Has anyone informed their board of directors what's going down here? Because, to be quite blunt, I do not trust their "CEO" to take care of this matter appropriately. No matter how he tries to mask it, he is defensive and mistrustful.

IME, people who are that mistrustful of *everyone* (even those who are trustworthy) are the very ones in whom no trust should be placed. 

(Dang. Why does this feel like educating my clients about the behavior traits of abusers.... ?)


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## Melissa

There should be openness and transparency...


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## Nimrod

Willow Girl,

When were you banned from the cattle forum? Was it when the CEO was was trying the Clinton ploy of "we did nothing wrong, What difference does it make at this point?" or was it later when he realized that folks on here were not buying the nonsense?

I would like to believe that the CEO is making an honest effort to fix this problem but, if he banned you recently, it doesn't look that way.


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## soulsurvivor

Pony said:


> I went to CMG's site.
> 
> Has anyone informed their board of directors what's going down here? Because, to be quite blunt, I do not trust their "CEO" to take care of this matter appropriately. No matter how he tries to mask it, he is defensive and mistrustful.
> 
> IME, people who are that mistrustful of *everyone* (even those who are trustworthy) are the very ones in whom no trust should be placed.
> 
> (Dang. Why does this feel like educating my clients about the behavior traits of abusers.... ?)


I was the one that asked Mr CEO the question about the company's board of directors, if they had those and what was the function. He answered my question as the last one in that long list of questions on the pdf file and said that I could report a problem to the board but they would hand it back to him to take care of. In other words, it wouldn't do any good to involve the board. I have no reason to doubt that as the company wouldn't be in this fine mess if it had an actively functioning board of directors.


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## billinwv

Billinwv, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system? 
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation. 

I haven't posted one comment about this mess until today. I guess we are all considered troublemakers. The above is what I see when I try to access a HT thread on the other site


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## Belfrybat

Selena said:


> Somewhat like a catholic school but the penguins, oops I mean nuns, don't wear habits.


Actually I do wear a habit. But being a Religious (ie. nun) in the Episcopal Church (NOT Catholic) is not why I posted what I did. If linking to a site with profanity is cause for a 3 month infraction, why would anyone want to risk it?


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## Belfrybat

Never mind - already answered.


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## Molly Mckee

I just posted to this thread and poof--I was unregistered? I was before I tried to post.

Anyway there are sins of omission as well as sins of commission. A CEO of the company should know when an employee is doing something wrong, as well as illegal over a period of months. The CEO should know what the TOS says, if it was changed, and how it effects the company. To blame the people that write the information that the company sells is making things worse. Kind of like the president saying he didn't know about wrong things going on until he read it in the news. If you didn't know, you certainly should have.


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## okiemom

You need a best of HT sticky. I so forgot that till just now.





Tricky Grama said:


> Who's been here long enuf to remember the Platypus threads that turned into a whole FORUM!!?


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## Selena

Belfrybat said:


> Actually I do wear a habit. But being a Religious (ie. nun) in the Episcopal Church (NOT Catholic) is not why I posted what I did. If linking to a site with profanity is cause for a 3 month infraction, why would anyone want to risk it?


Profanity is like porn, one knows when one sees it. Except for the occasional funeral, there is a good reason I avoid setting foot in a "house of religion".


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## CMG_CEO

I have addressed every one of these questions in the Open Forum thread in the admin/support section. Please see those there. That is the reason we have the thread. Please post any questions there. It does no good for one person to post a "theory" that I cannot respond to and that gets out of control due to lack of response and then turns into something much larger. I have been nothing but honest since I joined. If you have a question, ask it in my thread please.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/admin-archives/homesteadingtoday-announcements-support/536212-cmg-ceo-open-forum.html


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## vicker

There is only one word in the English language that is profanity by its self alone. All those other words are legitimate words. There is nothing profane about them. They can certainly be used as profane, if they are addressed at someone in particular. Otherwise, they are simply descriptive words. It is beyond silly that adults can say poopoo, but can't say crap or the s word. That, my friends, is ridiculous. If crap is bad, then poopoo is too. 

What is porn to me is not necessarily porn to you. A train going through a tunnel can be porn, a drilling rig, orchids, a bear scratching itself on a tree (yes, a video of a bear scratching itself on a tree was deleted from this site)... The list is endless. Very few things are offensive on their face. If you are offended by a bear scratching... well, get over yourself. Become an adult and view the world with grown up eyes. Life is not offensive. Neither is doodoo, unless it's where it shouldn't be. Then it's offensive. 

ETA
I have always found it provocative that the ones most offended by certain words are, generally, the ones most likely to curse. Cursing is how you use words, not what words you use.


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## CMG_CEO

Vicker, you have asked to be deleted. Do you want to be deleted? I have techs following this thread to process such requests. I take it you want to be deleted so just let us know and it's done. Please confirm. I wish you would stay with us, but it's you decision. Thanks, HC. 



vicker said:


> There is only one word in the English language that is profanity by its self alone. All those other words are legitimate words. There is nothing profane about them. They can certainly be used as profane, if they are addressed at someone in particular. Otherwise, they are simply descriptive words. It is beyond silly that adults can say poopoo, but can't say crap or the s word. That, my friends, is ridiculous. If crap is bad, then poopoo is too.
> 
> What is porn to me is not necessarily porn to you. A train going through a tunnel can be porn, a drilling rig, orchids, a bear scratching itself on a tree (yes, a video of a bear scratching itself on a tree was deleted from this site)... The list is endless. Very few things are offensive on their face. If you are offended by a bear scratching... well, get over yourself. Become an adult and view the world with grown up eyes. Life is not offensive. Neither is doodoo, unless it's where it shouldn't be. Then it's offensive.
> 
> ETA
> I have always found it provocative that the ones most offended by certain words are, generally, the ones most likely to curse. Cursing is how you use words, not what words you use.


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## CMG_CEO

Also, if you want to be deleted please PM Shannon and let her know if you want your name on posts or you want them to show as unregistered. Thanks. We will have you gone within 12 hours per your request.


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## po boy

billinwv said:


> Billinwv, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
> 
> Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
> If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.
> 
> I haven't posted one comment about this mess until today. I guess we are all considered troublemakers. The above is what I see when I try to access a HT thread on the other site


I get that ever now and then on HT and it appears to be a software or bandwidth issue as I am able to immediately access that forum again.

ETA: There is also an issue now and then of all post on a page not loading. That could be on my end or theirs and is most likely volume/bandwidth issues


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## vicker

CMG_CEO said:


> Also, if you want to be deleted please PM Shannon and let her know if you want your name on posts or you want them to show as unregistered. Thanks. We will have you gone within 12 hours per your request.



No, Hyatt, I do not wish to be deleted at this time. I am fairly happy with the recent changes, and optimist.


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## highlands

vicker said:


> I have always found it provocative that the ones most offended by certain words are, generally, the ones most likely to curse. Cursing is how you use words, not what words you use.


I disagree. There are plenty of words that do not need to be used in polite conversation. Their use is cursing and demonstrates a failure of intellect, a failure to try and express oneself better. Let's keep the profanity minimized.


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## kasilofhome

I see both sides on the language issue. I have knowledge of every single cuss out there.... but there is a time and a place.

Consider the audience. This is a quote family site. So at times things might vacuum or another word. Avoiding cussing is a reaching out to show respect for others. Trust me it is not easy sometimes. I got in trouble in 2nd grade when we went around the room telling the class what if any pets we had......We bred dogs.. it was the everyday word at home ...Mom explained it.


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## ErinP

po boy said:


> I get that ever now and then on HT and it appears to be a software or bandwidth issue as I am able to immediately access that forum again.
> 
> ETA: There is also an issue now and then of all post on a page not loading. That could be on my end or theirs and is most likely volume/bandwidth issues


Nope.

What it was is the feed on the sidebar of the forum, except that it included links to threads on a private board (which is why it would give a permission error when anyone tried to click through). Well that's odd, so I started looking into actual members. 
Ya know how you can go to someone's profile (here, as well as anywhere else, really) and see their latest posts? 

Yeah, well, you could do that over at cattleforum, too, including the first few sentences of the post.
Except that they _included_ those threads that were on their Mod forum. You couldn't click into the thread itself (_Homesteading Today related members_, _Reported Private Message_ and _manure storm from Homesteading Toda_y, to name a few) but you could read their initial comments. Including the request for angie to read PMs and her disappointment that she can't...

Obviously Steve is a real tech whiz. 


That's why the site is currently having a server upgrade. 
Someone finally took pity and told them their collective fly was down.


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## Pony

ErinP said:


> Nope.
> 
> What it was is the feed on the sidebar of the forum, except that it included links to threads on a private board (which is why it would give a permission error when anyone tried to click through). Well that's odd, so I started looking into actual members.
> Ya know how you can go to someone's profile (here, as well as anywhere else, really) and see their latest posts?
> 
> Yeah, well, you could do that over at cattleforum, too, including the first few sentences of the post.
> Except that they _included_ those threads that were on their Mod forum. You couldn't click into the thread itself (_Homesteading Today related members_, _Reported Private Message_ and _manure storm from Homesteading Toda_y, to name a few) but you could read their initial comments. Including the request for angie to read PMs and her disappointment that she can't...
> 
> Obviously Steve is a real tech whiz.
> 
> 
> That's why the site is currently having a server upgrade.
> Someone finally took pity and told them their collective fly was down.


Well, how about that? 

Wow. Those people really do seem to have issues.


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## Cash

I hope the new owners have really good lawyers if they try to reprint or otherwise use anything I post.
http://www.socialmediaexplorer.com/media-journalism/who-owns-your-social-media-content/


> First, and foremost, *if you create it, you own it,* until you say otherwise. From the moment you âfixâ your original creative work in a âtangible medium,â you own copyright in it. Typing a blog post on your laptop or taking a picture with your smartphone counts.
> *Content that you create and then post to Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, or anywhere else is still yours.* You may have made it easier for people to infringe your rights by copying your work, but you havenât given up those rights.


The link inside the quote is to the relevant section of U.S. copyright law.


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