# Why dont the "poor" act thrifty??



## beaglebiz (Aug 5, 2008)

I stopped at two thrift stores this week, (other than Sal Army), both in poor areas, both benefiting poor folks. I walked out with about 8 dozen quart jars and 2 dozen various sized canning jars, for less that $5. I brought them home (I am trying to build up my supply, as even though it is winter I keep coming up with things to can, like turkey broth, bean soup, mushroom etc)and asked my dear husband why were these jars sitting around long enough to be marked down 75%...dont the "poor folk" know how to can and save money? (both thrift stores are located near large city housing projects). I noticed everyone looking for their name brand used clothes, but no one cared a hoot for these great jars. Oh well, I suppose their loss is my gain. Amazes me. Also noticed the woman in front of me checking out in the grocery store had two cases of those garbage hug a jug drinks, and plenty of boxed and processed foods, then whipped out her access card to pay. Id rather give my kids a glass of water and a fresh apple or orange instead of that garbage. (or better yet, some of the banana chips I dehydrated when I bought 50 lbs at 10 cents a lb)
just an observation


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## CindyLou62 (Aug 22, 2008)

And that is why they will always BE poor.


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## shellycoley (Mar 6, 2003)

That is the difference between "Poor" and "Thrifty".

Shelly


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## 7.62mmFMJ (Nov 19, 2008)

Yep. Our poor ain't so poor, are they? 

Most Americans just are not in tune with being self-reliant.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2009)

shellycoley said:


> That is the difference between "Poor" and "Thrifty".


True!


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## travlnusa (Dec 12, 2004)

I could not agree more. My wife and I LOVE to buy wool sweaters, leather coats, new jeans with tags, solid work gloves, new artwork for the walls, etc....

All by shopping at our local Goodwill.

We are blessed to be able to by at new stores if we choose to. We simply choose not to.

Do we ever simply blow money? Of course we do. We simply define blowing money away in a different light. For example, when we go to auctions, there are always those boxes of "stuff" that sell for $1-3. We will buy those if there is something we might need, and then just like Christmas, get home and see what else we got with it.

Also, by shopping at thrift places, we have the money on hand when we we really need it.


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## Charleen (May 12, 2002)

We kind of touched on this topic recently in another thread about Food Pantries. Quite often, people just don't know HOW to can, so they wouldn't buy canning jars. BTW - Congrats to you on that great find! I'm jealous!


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

Maybe the poor people have as many jars as they need. Perhaps they have nowhere to do any canning. Perhaps they have nowhere to store the jars. Perhaps their plumbing is such that tap water is undrinkable. But don't let any of those considerations get in the way of being judgmental.


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## MoGrrrl (Jan 19, 2007)

And try as I might, we weren't able to find a pressure canner for under $125. That's a chunk of change. And believe me, the jars in the thrift stores I go to never get down that low. I managed to find a couple "gift mixes" in canning jars on the Christmas clearance stuff, but I will need to clean those up. 

No one I knew canned, until DH started a few years ago. We're learning, but it's been rather intimidating without somebody nearby to show me the ropes.

I can't believe all the knick-knacks that get bought, but I'm glad they are being reused and supporting a good charitable cause.


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## adenblue (Apr 12, 2008)

I have never seen that many canning jars in any thrift store. I occasionally see single jars for 99 cents. I am jealous.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

A person on welfare typically can't afford to spend money on jars, and an access card won't cover that type of expenditure. They also don't have room for extra freezers, or the money to pay for the extra electricity. It's also likely they drive an uninsured car on a revoked license because it can't pass emissions tests.

If a person can't afford car insurance, repairs, etc., which are basic necessities, I'm sure jars and canning most likely don't enter their stream of thought.

These things aren't necessary for survival. It's highly unlikely someone with no patch of ground to grow on is going to buy veggies in bulk so they can can them up, when they need that money for what gets put on the table today and tomorrow.

BTDT, the economics don't add up the way it seems they should. But the only way to know that is to experience it or have somebody close to you experience it.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

adenblue said:


> I have never seen that many canning jars in any thrift store. I occasionally see single jars for 99 cents. I am jealous.


Same thing here. _When_ I find them used, a case runs maybe a dollar or two less than a new box. Never have seen them in our local thrift stores.


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## countrymech (Nov 28, 2005)

The problem is that there is no "Fear of Failure". There will always be someone there to bail people out and support them. Where is the motivation in that? I dare say that pride and determination lead to thrift, not welfare.


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## Jerngen (May 22, 2006)

Many of the "poor" have never been taught anything about this stuff. Many of them have never even been exposed to anything homesteading or thrifty related. 
How do I know?? I was one of them. I was brought up on processed everything, was taught that if you kept a dollar in your pocket to long it would burn a hole in your clothes so you best blow it immediately. I was not taught a thing about money, not even how to balance a checkbook. I was not taught a single thing about being self-reliant and they sure didn't show much of that stuff on the tv which was my babysitter growing up. 
If they have no clue such concepts exist, how can they be held reliable? It can be like talking about life in the frozen north to people who live in the amazon rain forest. 

I was fortunate. I dreamed of having my own home. I also love to read. Somewhere along the line I came across a website called The Dollar Stretcher. That opened up some new horizons for me but it still took awhile (with it all being a foreign concept to me). Someone eventually mentioned HomesteadingToday. Thus I ended up over here. 
I've come a LONG way in four years but it was all by accident from my desire to own a home and searching for ways to make that happen. I still don't know anyone in real life who cans, cooks from scratch from items bought in bulk, etc. etc. etc. 
It's all been reading and self taught with the help of some WONDERFUL online friends I've made. 
Would you all have judged me so negatively 4+ years ago?? :shrug:

Granted, a lot of "poor folks" don't wish to learn...... many people are scared off by change, but there are many, many people like me who just didn't/don't know any better because they weren't taught any better. 
I'm still learning and will be the rest of my life I'm sure


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

With some people.....................
My experience with many people is that hardly a person is so poor they don't have an iPod or call-waiting on their phone while their power is turned off for non-payment. Endless reasons given of why something can't be changed. Chances lost and an opportunities avoided. Can't have someone telling them what to do at a job and so they quit without having anything else to go to. That they got accidentally pregnant 5 times while their parents raise three of the kids who where taken away. 

There are lots of people who do struggle to do their best but there are endless people who will never do what needs doing to get ahead. And who will blame others always. 

And the remark that you get is that how could I ever understand unless I've been there. I do understand - the idea of being that way is so scary -that is why I get up at 5:30am to go to a job every day that is hard and stressful. Because I do see how it works and will go to great lengths to avoid it.

With much respect to those people who have dug themselves out of such a life through hard work.......................... Done without glory or sympathy but dint of their own efforts and inspite of a welfare system that holds them down.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

mistletoad said:


> Maybe the poor people have as many jars as they need. Perhaps they have nowhere to do any canning. Perhaps they have nowhere to store the jars. Perhaps their plumbing is such that tap water is undrinkable. But don't let any of those considerations get in the way of being judgmental.





pickapeppa said:


> A person on welfare typically can't afford to spend money on jars, and an access card won't cover that type of expenditure. They also don't have room for extra freezers, or the money to pay for the extra electricity. It's also likely they drive an uninsured car on a revoked license because it can't pass emissions tests.
> 
> If a person can't afford car insurance, repairs, etc., which are basic necessities, I'm sure jars and canning most likely don't enter their stream of thought.
> 
> ...


I agree with both of you there, and I'll add for the most part that chemical processed garbage food is usually cheaper than fresh fruits and veggies. When I was down on my luck I skipped right past the expensive good stuff and went right for the cheapest package of crap I could get my hands on. A usual meal consisted of potatoes, Ramen noodles (at five whole cents a package from the Dollar Tree), and a 33 cent cheapo burrito from Aldis. Having nothing but a microwave really limits ones ability to make a decent meal. Growing food is great when you have land, doesn't work so well for people who live in an apartment. That was my main push to live in the country. It is so much easier to be self sufficient. 

It is amazing how many people rip on poor people on this forum. Easy to judge people, not as easy to go and find out why they are poor and help them if they really need it.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Junk food is cheaper - it's been subsidized. This is also where coupon offers concentrate, along with high priced 'new and improved' versions of the same old thing in smaller package weights.

Fresh produce has gotten very expensive. And frozen - there's only so much a fridge/freezer will hold at a given time, and they don't can well.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

And if you're a working poor in government housing, you will have a rent increase everytime you get a raise to try to dig out of the apt, and no place to grow more than a tomato plant or two.

I know the new clothes for the kids at one time were gifts from relatives, or what I sewed from fabric I had already from BEFORE....

There are all types of poor, just as there are all types of rich/well off.

Angie


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

PhilJohnson said:


> It is amazing how many people rip on poor people on this forum. Easy to judge people, not as easy to go and find out why they are poor and help them if they really need it.



There is not enough time or money in the whole world- the difference is like Jemgen- she chose to work at it- that is what makes it possible. Her choice, not the things given which can only help a small amount or even be harmful.

It is not being poor that is the problem but not expecting to take care of business. Many a poor person is hardworking and responsible. The people being talked about are the others. 
Poverty does not confer sainthood just as wealth does not. 
Some may have learned canning at their mother's knee but many have taught themselves. Looking for the better way.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2009)

where I want to said:


> There is not enough time or money in the whole world- the difference is like Jemgen- she chose to work at it-


Just a tiny fyi- Jerngen is a him. 

And yes, he's come a long ways for the better. 

I'd like to see more people fight their way out of poverty. A few do. Most don't try. I think it's a cultural thing. People born into a beaten down situation are resigned that they will never be different.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

ladycat said:


> Just a tiny fyi- Jerngen is a him.
> 
> And yes, he's come a long ways for the better.
> 
> I'd like to see more people fight their way out of poverty. A few do. Most don't try. I think it's a cultural thing. People born into a beaten down situation are resigned that they will never be different.


Some people are just battle worn from trying to get out and not succeeding.


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

MoGrrrl said:


> And try as I might, we weren't able to find a pressure canner for under $125.


You have to be in the right place at the right time. I found my All-American canner at a thrift store for $35. (Where's a "gloating" smilie when you need it? ) 

For less than $125 you should be able to find a new Presto. 

I volunteer for Extension as a Master Food Preserver/Food Safety Advisor, so I do a lot of talking with people about food & cooking. It's surprising what middle-class people don't know about cooking - I'm not surprised that the very poor don't know how to cook from scratch. It hasn't been taught in home-ec for years. 

One of the churches here started a canning pantry. They get jars, lids, & rings to give away & as much produce as possible. I've taught canning classes at the church. In spite of all that, they got more than they were able to give away & needed the space, so after the last class the lady in charge _gave me 5 huge boxes full of jars, mostly quarts._


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2009)

Bonnie L said:


> You have to be in the right place at the right time. I found my All-American canner at a thrift store for $35. (Where's a "gloating" smilie when you need it? )


Most of the canners here came from yard sales for a few dollars each.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

There is nothing I hate worse than putting other people down so you can make your self feel better.
i love my garden and being able to can the extras for my family. But i don't think it makes me better than some one who isn't able to do have a garden. It takes alot to get to the point where you can can any amount of food.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

Jerngen said:


> Many of the "poor" have never been taught anything about this stuff. Many of them have never even been exposed to anything homesteading or thrifty related. ...
> 
> ...Granted, a lot of "poor folks" don't wish to learn...... many people are scared off by change, but there are many, many people like me who just didn't/don't know any better because they weren't taught any better.
> I'm still learning and will be the rest of my life I'm sure



these were my thoughts, too. good habits can be passed down through generations, but so can bad ones. some folks just need mentors. maybe it takes a while to save enough to have the ability to save more, but until someone is shown how, it will never happen. all people aren't lazy, some folks honestly don't know any better.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

ignorance is perpetuated in this country. thats all I'm going to say!


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

where I want to said:


> There is not enough time or money in the whole world- the difference is like Jemgen- she chose to work at it- that is what makes it possible. Her choice, not the things given which can only help a small amount or even be harmful.
> 
> It is not being poor that is the problem but not expecting to take care of business. Many a poor person is hardworking and responsible. The people being talked about are the others.
> Poverty does not confer sainthood just as wealth does not.
> Some may have learned canning at their mother's knee but many have taught themselves. Looking for the better way.


Truth be told without knowing their (poor person on welfare's) situation you really have no idea if they are working hard at being more self-sufficient. Don't get me wrong I am not a fan of lazy people leaching off the system, it is just that it is hard to know someone's situation just by looking at them.


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## Teri (Jan 13, 2003)

I bought my new condition All American canner at a yard sale. It had been given to the lady as a gift (originally purchased from Lehman's, receipt was still in the canner) and she didn't want it!
Blessings, Teri


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## beaglebiz (Aug 5, 2008)

I got my smaller new presto pressure canner new in box for $10 at a garage sale, keep looking , the deals are here.
We have a local grange here that is mostly old ladies. I have been thinking about offering to teach a canning class (pressure and water bath). The classes are free and open to the public, and I could hang signs on the bulleting baords in the same thrift stores....has anyone else done this?? They have not offered much lately, and I thought it might be fun and help someone out


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

A buddy of mine says, "poor folks have poor ways". There is some truth in that.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

We make a mistake when we put all poor people into the same category. There are people that make a lot of money that are still poor in my book - they don't save any money.

But for this thread....I think we might step back and realize that part of the problem with being poor is that you don't have the funds to buy ahead things you can use later. It is all you can do to keep your family fed for today and the bills paid - if they can even do that.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Considering poor folks:

It costs a pair of shoes for your kid (the cash equivalent of) to cash a check if you can't afford a bank account (yes, this happens). It costs proportionately more to have a bank account if you decide it's worthwhile to pay the fees.

People judge you by your access card and not the content of your character.

Not being able to afford car insurance and repairs sets you up for money being siphoned off back to the government in fines for 'breaking laws', and more hardship requiring transportation to work.

Frequent car break downs lead to what is viewed as 'irresponsibility' in the work place, rather than the need for a better paycheck. Desire to be at work, and doing an excellent job when you're there doesn't make a difference if you can't get there, and are viewed as 'irresponsible' as a result.

Doctor's are very hard to come by and often don't give the same quality of care to poor people, since the government barely pays them when they do.

Employers take advantage of your situation because of the 'desperation' factor and often require more and expect more than from other employees.

Property owners take advantage and often sexually harass poor women because of the desperation factor when looking for or renting 'section 8' housing. You'd be amazed what a woman has to put up with to provide shelter for her family when there is no stable 'man of the house'.

People judge you by what's in your grocery cart, and often make sniveling, childish, angry comments out loud that you and everyone around you can hear, making shopping a humiliating experience for you and your kids.

Everything costs more due to the need to buy in smaller quantities, more frequently, especially if that requires having to borrow money for needed car maintenance, or replacing large ticket items on credit. That credit costs at least 20% and often more.

Living in poverty in this country is a living Hades. It isn't any easier on the kids than it is on the parents. I'd not wish it on my worst enemy, but I do wish it on those who feel it's their 'right' to _exploit_ the working folks who are the cogs in the wheels of the economic engine that have made them billionaires, and returned nothing but hardship to their lower end workers attached with a 'praise us for your job and paycheck, it's because of us you live a better life' message.


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## QuiltingLady2 (Jan 3, 2007)

PP I appreciate your input. So many times the frugal are frugal by need and then frugal by choice. Success! 
The poor are even too poor to be frugal. And that is the difference. 
Until you have been really, very poor, you cannot understand the difference. 
That is where judgementality rears it's ugly head. 

I have taught many people to can with a pressure cooker and a water bath boiler. I've taught people to grow what they are able where they are able. I've given ideas on frugality to individuals. 
The bottom line is that all of the above cost $$$. Some a lot and some not so much
(ex Big butch cut of beef, bulk to can in the pressure canner. Around 50.00 = /-) etc.

If you have a person that needs?? - could give all kinds of examples here - and you don't have the $$ to buy that need even at the goodwill or second hand stores. How in the world do you buy 50.00 worth of meat to can for a rainy day. 
The rain has already started falling.

This is where the Churches need to step in and help. Regardless wheither these folks are - and judgementality comes in again - living as you would live and doing what you would do. Meeting people at their point of need is what's called for. Not pointing out the 'shoulds' in their lives.


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## Madame (Jan 1, 2003)

QuiltingLady2 said:


> This is where the Churches need to step in and help. Regardless wheither these folks are - and judgementality comes in again - living as you would live and doing what you would do. Meeting people at their point of need is what's called for. Not pointing out the 'shoulds' in their lives.


I wish the churches and libraries would offer classes on canning, penny-pinching, etc - and provide babysitting. Not everyone would attend, but some would, and it would help them towards self-sufficiency.


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## QuiltingLady2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Madame said:


> I wish the churches and libraries would offer classes on canning, penny-pinching, etc - and provide babysitting. Not everyone would attend, but some would, and it would help them towards self-sufficiency.



I wish they would to Madame. I have noticed that many news programs are talking more about saving money etc. I think it just takes awhile for the wheels to turn. Until then it's up to us to teach those around us. I've alread heard from a few people about how-to garden this year and I'm sure the next question will be how do I put all of this produce up.
What I'd like to do this year is find a truck to go east of the mountains to pick up boxes of veggies and fruits to can. H says the gas will kill the savings. He might be right. Need to sit down and work it out I guess.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

shellycoley said:


> That is the difference between "Poor" and "Thrifty".
> 
> Shelly


Thrifty people usually live far below their means and build Net Worth. The most thrifty people are often very wealthy.

Whereas 'poor' is commonly associated with destitute, and when they do have access to money will live far beyond their means. Without the knowledge, desire or skill to accumulate wealth. Often 'poor' people can be seen driving new cars, wearing expensive suits and will sometimes have flashy jobs; yet living in debt.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

ET1 SS said:


> Thrifty people usually live far below their means and build Net Worth. The most thrifty people are often very wealthy.
> 
> Whereas 'poor' is commonly associated with destitute, and when they do have access to money will live far beyond their means. Without the knowledge, desire or skill to accumulate wealth. Often 'poor' people can be seen driving new cars, wearing expensive suits and will sometimes have flashy jobs; yet living in debt.


I can guarantee you those in the category you're describing are not playing by the rules. The reason this is allowed to continue is because it costs more to catch and prosecute them than it does to keep paying them.


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## house06 (Jan 4, 2007)

I believe there are many valid points here in the thread. I personally no longer can even though I would like to because my new stove is a smoothtop and I have been advised not to do so.

A little thread drift but I would like to see more organizations find ways of encouraging those who can't grow/afford fresh produce to be able to have it. I have always wondered why in my local town the area farmer's market doesn't broker some type of deal with the local food pantries to donate unsold/slightly blemished produce. The sellers could get some tax break and the food pantries could offer free produce to those who want but can't afford it . I know there are issues with storage, but it seems to me that after a Saturday market, then on Monday produce could be available for pickup or something> its seems there should be a way of making things work.

I have also wondered about businesses sponsoring community gardens in housing areas. Or have at the local schools produce gardens which are tended to by students and the produce used in cafeterias and given to students to take home. I realize that there are some dietary and preparation restrictions but surely some viable solutions could be worked out for the betterment of everyone.


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## Madame (Jan 1, 2003)

house06 said:


> have at the local schools produce gardens which are tended to by students and the produce used in cafeterias and given to students to take home. I realize that there are some dietary and preparation restrictions but surely some viable solutions could be worked out for the betterment of everyone.


I worked at a school that did this on a *very* small scale. I think it's a terrific idea.

I have also read of prison gardens where the prisoners did all the work and then got to eat the produce. They learn marketable skills and eat better - a win-win situation.


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## Stephen in SOKY (Jun 6, 2006)

pickapeppa said:


> I can guarantee you those in the category you're describing are not playing by the rules. The reason this is allowed to continue is because it costs more to catch and prosecute them than it does to keep paying them.


Rather a broad brush you're using there.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2009)

Madame said:


> I have also read of prison gardens where the prisoners did all the work and then got to eat the produce. They learn marketable skills and eat better - a win-win situation.


In the 1960's we lived near a prison farm. My mother didn't grow the same stuff they did because she could buy bushels of stuff so cheap there. She canned what she grew, and she canned what she bought from the prison farm.


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## Aint2nuts (Feb 18, 2008)

Bonnie L said:


> You have to be in the right place at the right time. I found my All-American canner at a thrift store for $35. (Where's a "gloating" smilie when you need it? )
> 
> For less than $125 you should be able to find a new Presto. .



Oh I have haunted the thrift stores in this area for a pressure canner. I just found a good American canner for 150 -- and I don't have 150 until after the first of next month...;and then that money is taken up by bills, with no money for food after the bills are paid...so I won't be buying that canner. 

Even 35 dollars is out of my range, if I found it at the thrift store.


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## Madame (Jan 1, 2003)

Aint2nuts said:


> Oh I have haunted the thrift stores in this area for a pressure canner. I just found a good American canner for 150 -- and I don't have 150 until after the first of next month...;and then that money is taken up by bills, with no money for food after the bills are paid...so I won't be buying that canner.
> 
> Even 35 dollars is out of my range, if I found it at the thrift store.


Ditto. It's a pain, for sure!


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

pickapeppa said:


> I can guarantee you those in the category you're describing are not playing by the rules. The reason this is allowed to continue is because it costs more to catch and prosecute them than it does to keep paying them.


Who is trying to catch them?

Corporate lawyers, accountants, business advisors; why would anyone want to catch them?


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2009)

Aint2nuts said:


> Oh I have haunted the thrift stores in this area for a pressure canner. I just found a good American canner for 150 -- and I don't have 150 until after the first of next month...;and then that money is taken up by bills, with no money for food after the bills are paid...so I won't be buying that canner.
> 
> Even 35 dollars is out of my range, if I found it at the thrift store.


I know that feeling. There have been times when I wouldn't have been able to pay $2 even if it were brand new in a sealed box.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

ET1 SS said:


> Who is trying to catch them?
> 
> Corporate lawyers, accountants, business advisors; why would anyone want to catch them?


I see. We were referring to two different segments of the 'poor'.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Stephen in SOKY said:


> Rather a broad brush you're using there.


True, but I was referring to a certain pov that often serves as an argument against government handouts. I can certainly conceive of situations where someone would be poor currently, but still have a nice car that's paid off. Especially these days.

But there are people who use the system collecting in different states under different social security numbers, and enrich themselves in the process. If not that, there are others who make money illegally and under the table while collecting public benefits for the poor, also enriching themselves. 

These are the folks I was referring to, that are allowed to continue to do it, because they're so few in number and the benefits stolen so small, that having a system in place to hunt down and prosecute would cost more than what would be saved in the pursuit.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

timfromohio said:


> A buddy of mine says, "poor folks have poor ways". There is some truth in that.


 That really is true. There was a guy that went to my Church single father of 2 -- his wife left a few years back -- obviously down and out (he had drug problems in the past but was kicking them) I helped him get a job where I worked. He and his kids had very little, but he was making a decent salary and if he stuck to it he could have dug himself out. Instead he bought himself an espresso machine for at work, he bought an artificial tree for his desk area because having just a desk was too stark for him, also he bought a new mini-van even though the van he had was running ok -- it was getting old(it was 5 years old with under 60K miles on it), he also bought other things that were to me foolish for someone in his financial state - yet he had to take time off to take his kids to free clinic (and sit around all day waiting to get in while losing a days pay) for health care because he was 'too poor' to pay for family insurance at work (an extra $200 a month at that time).


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

mistletoad said:


> Maybe the poor people have as many jars as they need. Perhaps they have nowhere to do any canning. Perhaps they have nowhere to store the jars. Perhaps their plumbing is such that tap water is undrinkable. But don't let any of those considerations get in the way of being judgmental.



nope

they just want to be taken care of, without having to work for it.


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## ailsaek (Feb 7, 2007)

Riverdale said:


> nope
> 
> they just want to be taken care of, without having to work for it.


Oh, for pity's sake! 

Back when I was poor, I didn't can because I didn't have the time or energy, let alone the money to buy a canner. I tried hard to work myself out of debt and poverty, but you know what? I failed. I wasn't on welfare, I was a clerical temp, but being a clerical temp and divorced mother in Boston means making too much money for assistance, but not enough to pay rent, utilities, and student loans, let alone set anything aside for savings. My daughter ate well and was decently dressed, but not very well supervised, and I went hungry any time I wasn't at home and got sick a lot. I did buy things in bulk as much as possible, as I was raised to shop by unit price not the price of an individual item, and I used my freezer as much as I could, but a BJ's or Costco membership was just out of the question.

The only reason I'm not still there is because I remarried and my new husband wanted his family to have a house and made enough money (hooray for the dot.boom!) that he could get one.

Yes, there are lazy, shiftless and just plain stupid people out there, but that's not all of the story.

Oh, and you can only buy things at yard sales if your neighbors have them to get rid of in the first place.


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## insocal (May 15, 2005)

beaglebiz said:


> I stopped at two thrift stores this week, (other than Sal Army), both in poor areas, both benefiting poor folks. I walked out with about 8 dozen quart jars and 2 dozen various sized canning jars, for less that $5. I brought them home (I am trying to build up my supply, as even though it is winter I keep coming up with things to can, like turkey broth, bean soup, mushroom etc)and asked my dear husband why were these jars sitting around long enough to be marked down 75%...dont the "poor folk" know how to can and save money? (both thrift stores are located near large city housing projects). I noticed everyone looking for their name brand used clothes, but no one cared a hoot for these great jars. Oh well, I suppose their loss is my gain. Amazes me. Also noticed the woman in front of me checking out in the grocery store had two cases of those garbage hug a jug drinks, and plenty of boxed and processed foods, then whipped out her access card to pay. Id rather give my kids a glass of water and a fresh apple or orange instead of that garbage. (or better yet, some of the banana chips I dehydrated when I bought 50 lbs at 10 cents a lb)
> just an observation



Gosh, STEREOTYPE much???? I imagine many poor people DO know how to live frugally, otherwise they'd be DEAD.

Besides, nobody is teaching frugality in schools, and that message sure isn't coming across the airwaves, either. America is a consumer society, because that is what generates corporate profits. And we know corporations have ruled for 20 of the last 28 years.

Let's hope things change the way I expect them to in the coming years. Corporations have apparently lost their seats at the table and We The People have regained them.


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## sapphyre (Dec 10, 2008)

I agree with what most people here have said. I'm glad that there are people out there who understand the trap of poverty (though I'm sorry some have had to learn it first hand). Beaglebiz..in your question lies the answer! The poor in our generation do not know about canning, they only know about being consumers. It is all they've been exposed to. When you're poor and you've got kids to feed, you grab what is easy and cheap. When you wonder how to feed your family, it is very, very difficult to get ahead enough to start a garden and to start canning. It's day to day survival. Be thankful if that's not something you can possibly understand. But don't be so judgemental towards them. Congrats on the jars though! I'd be happy as a pig in mud with that find!


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

I have done some work with habitat for humanity and another, similar organization, at my last job. A bunch of us would volunteer on weekends to help fix up the houses of folks who could not afford to do it themselves. In every instance, the house was a complete wreck - I mean not clean. Trash everywhere. Costs nothing to clean up. In every instance the folks had a dish, cell phones, and in one case the lady had what what I refer to as a "fun" car - not used for primary transportation. Some old 60's model with the "classic" plates and special registration. House was falling apart, but she could cruise in the classic car and watch 200 channels. The root of the problem has been pointed out before. We are a consumer society. People think they are entitled, have a right to have things like cell phones, cars, flat screen TV's, etc. They don't take the time to stop and assess needs vs. wants, and plan or budget accordingly.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

I was raised poor but my parents worked their tails off to change that. My father worked multiple jobs and my mother squeezed pennies so hard they screamed for relief. The surprising thing is that my brother and I didn't even know we were poor. Our parents always made sure we were fed and well cared for and made sure we had a great family life. They didn't get any help from the government at all. They hunted, fished, gardened, and foraged wild foods. I just assumed that is the way everyone else lived until I got older and found out different.

Some people in America are poor by circumstance, as we were. Circumstances can be changed. My parents weren't all that well educated--my father did graduate from high school. My mother did not. They lived with family until they were making enough money to move out on their own and feed themselves. I clearly remember traipsing the woods for roots and mushrooms, helping Mamma work the garden all hot summer long, which we had to keep at Grandma's until we got a yard big enough to grow our own. They didn't get good jobs right away, they worked within walking distance until they could afford to buy a car. Although sometimes luck was with them, sometimes it wasn't but they still continued to push forward. They eventually reached a lifestyle that was very comfortable for them. They lived in a home they liked, in a rural area they loved. They owed no one and were able to relax a little. It can be done. I lived it, as the dependent child in the story. I remember my father borrowing a gun to hunt with until he could afford one of his own. He knew he had to feed his family and there was no stopping him--he wouldn't quit until he found a way.

OTOH, there are many in our country who live poor because of choice. And I believe it is this segment who give being poor a bad name. These are the people who refuse to lift a finger to help themselves. The ones who turned me down regarding accepting extra produce from my garden because they would have had to come and pick it and cook it themselves. The fact is that they were not really hungry if they felt free to turn down free food. They certainly had the car, gas, and money to go buy cigarettes that day. These are the people who are on so many lists and receive so many handouts that I had to pick my way through their children's expensive toys (that I can't afford for my child) when I was delivering the groceries that they had pitifully begged my church to buy them. They could have sold those obviously uncherished toys for enough to purchase most of that food themselves. These are the people who don't know how to make better choices because they don't have the motivation to learn better. They have found out how to get others to provide for them and so they are not compelled to do anything to learn how to do it for themselves.

My parents could have taken that route. But they didn't. They were poor kids from poor families who married young and had two children in short order. They started their married life with practically nothing but the clothes on their backs. And they struggled hard to make a better life for themselves and their children. 

So, while I definitely have a great deal of sympathy and compassion for other people in their situation, and I will and do help people like that when I can, I have no sympathy for the others. They don't need it. My help comes with a string attached: get up off your butt and reach out your hand to receive it. (And yes, I know that some people are disabled and can't help themselves, and I do try to help them also, but in a different way.)

Healthy food costs more??? In my area fruit goes to waste every year. It hangs on trees while the owners use all they can and try to give the rest away. No takers. Picking fruit involves work. It takes effort to try to learn how to preserve it. Our church's canning classes were cancelled due to lack of participation. It IS much easier to use your Access card to buy junk food. The other would require a little effort and motivation to make your life better. And a whole lot of America's so called poor just don't have the willingness to summon that.

THOSE are the poor that are so often judged and scorned on this site. Because the fact is that many of us have either been poor and pulled ourselves up or are living it now and still in the heart of the struggle. We have little sympathy for those who have all the same opportunities and are just too lazy to take them. I live in a community that abounds with wild game, fish, wild forage, generous farm families with over abundant gardens. So I am sick and tired of hearing the boo hooing from those who are too lazy to lift anything heavier than their welfare checks/cards.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2009)

ovsfarm said:


> Healthy food costs more??? In my area fruit goes to waste every year. It hangs on trees while the owners use all they can and try to give the rest away. No takers. Picking fruit involves work. It takes effort to try to learn how to preserve it.


That's one of my sore spots.

The neighborhood we deliver meals in is very poor. It was a nice neighborhood when it was built right after WWII. A lot of nice families were raised there in the late 40's through the 60's or 70's, but it's very shabby and run down now.

Many of the original residents planted pecan trees and all sorts of fruit trees. They are hundreds of those trees still there and producing. But almost all the fruit and nuts are going to waste.

I watch it every year. Hundreds of pounds of fruit rots on the ground every year. Tons of pecans just sit there in the yards, sidewalks and street.

In the beginning, when my mother and I would see all that fruit falling off the trees and rotting, we would ask the owners if we could have some of it. We were invariably told a flat out "No", or they would say they were going to use them. Except they never used them. It all rotted.

We have found ONE person in that neighborhood who makes preserves and juice out of the trees in her yard.

At least there are some very well fed squirrels in that neighborhood.


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## sapphyre (Dec 10, 2008)

To me it is very easy to understand why poor people often live in messy homes. Quite simply, a messy home is a sign of stress and depression. I know that I struggle to pay my bills every month, and right now it is impossible to get ahead financially. At times, these raw facts of life eat at me, and when they do, my house keeping efforts drop to zero. I have nothing left. No energy to keep up with the house because I'm worn out from the hopelessness of my situation. And there are a lot of people far worse off than I am - so it is very easy to understand. I don't think we should point fingers and criticise people living daily in a very difficult situation.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

The healthiness of food compares to the expense of the food, as an inverse function.

Meaning the healthier food is, the more less expensive it tends to be.

Fresh fruits that you pick are usually cheaper, then corporate 'Fresh fruit' that has been sprayed and waxed and irradiated. And once it has been further processed and combined with 20-letter ingredients you finally get the tiniest dab of the fruit inside junk food. Which is the highest priced 'food' item.

We have began buying corn, barley and oats from local farmers; during harvest week. Which makes a lot of our food very inexpensive now. And yet it has no added chemicals.

You can easily spend $2 on a 1 pound loaf of bread, and that loaf will have a long list if junk added that should never go near a human's mouth.

Fresh cereal grains cost me 10 cents a pound. So even after milling it, making dough and baking it, our breads still cost us a lot less than commercial bread costs.

Without the added non-food ingredients too.


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## Marie04 (Mar 3, 2008)

The "poor" that I've come into contact with are often very wasteful. That seems like a really harsh thing to say, and I hate to say it... but we have two rental houses and it's unbelievable what some people leave behind when they move. And yes, they have to have the best of everything, but leave behind bills and unpaid rent and all the 'toys' they and their kids 'had' to have. 

On the other hand, my in-laws were poor most of their working lives. They were thrifty and survived. My MIL is 85 years old now.

As with many other things, being "poor" is an attitude, and has nothing to do with $$$. That doesn't mean there aren't truly poor people, especially those who don't have their health.


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## canadiangirl (Jul 25, 2004)

Big Sigh...Poverty is so brutal. My DH and I found ourselves spiralling to the depths of poverty. This was 14 years ago. Our biggest mistake was not keeping an emergency $ to cover us for at least 6 months. I had left my work and was 6 months preggo DH was self employed, doing quite well but ended up diagnosed with a cancer. Slowly we lost income from time away from work, treatments and recovery while our expenses went up. Although health care is free we still had extra gas $ to go to city, parking fees, and meds. We made it through a few months and then it started mushrooming out of control. It's like dominoes and collapses. We had no credit cards or loans other than a small mortgage, thankfully, but that still didn't help us. No one wanted to hire a large preg woman for anything and DH was so sick. By the time the baby was born we had no phone, or car. It's really hard to look for work from such a disadvantage. My DH sold some of his tools to buy food which made it hard to work again when he ended up feeling better. We managed barely to keep our house, it was cheaper than a rental. At the time I don't think he thought he would need them again. Thankfully my DH eventually recovered but it took us 5 years to dig our way out of poverty. We did have a garden and a few laying hens. I foraged for berries with my baby in a backpack and walked along the highway picking up bottles.
It costs more to be poor. You just can't afford to buy in bulk. Money walks in in dribs and drabs and and you just have to assume there might not be more next week so you have to get a little of everything. We had some help and some people in our lives helped in ways that were small but so important. I didn't have enough $ to shop at thrift stores even though I would have loved those bottles.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Very interesting thread!! A person could put a whole different perspective on this. How about those who have a car, depend on it, use it often, but spend incredible amounts of money on keeping it going, between car payments and garages? 
How many of you have spent hundreds of dollars on a car repair for something like a alternator or exhaust manifold replacement. Why not fix it yourself?
Just as a person can learn to put up their produce, and get good buys, they can get a book and learn how to fix the auto, truck or tractor. I don't know that it's not part luck that a person finds themselves able to live on a farmstead, but I do know some of us can go for years wanting that lifestyle, but not being there. 
I know what it's like to live in an apartment in the city, to work part time jobs for minimum wage. You simply have no use for canning jars if you don't have a garden. 
That said, wow, I'm jealous what a good buy!!!
After moving to the the farm where I live now I did learn how to can in boiling water(from a book), not pressure canning. I would love to learn. My grandmother use to can everything, and now I wish she were alive when I am at a time in my life to really appreciate her. I missed my chance as a teenager.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Wendle - that car fixing was easier with a 1956 -1960 ish model car. Right now even a simple car has electronics, a brain in the console to control them, emissions, etc. Now changing oil (if you can get to the filter, etc) and such is probably possible. Brake pads, yeh probably, but re-doing a Caliburt (I think thats the name) is about $400 each on a 1989 Ford Fiesta (but Dad did it over a weekend for next to nothing a long time ago.) But he had all the tools already.

Finding a good shade tree mechanic these days is a real find.

Angie


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

AngieM2 said:


> Wendle - that car fixing was easier with a 1956 -1960 ish model car. Right now even a simple car has electronics, a brain in the console to control them, emissions, etc. Now changing oil (if you can get to the filter, etc) and such is probably possible. Brake pads, yeh probably, but re-doing a Caliburt (I think thats the name) is about $400 each on a 1989 Ford Fiesta (but Dad did it over a weekend for next to nothing a long time ago.) But he had all the tools already.
> 
> Finding a good shade tree mechanic these days is a real find.
> 
> Angie


We use a professional mechanic, but there are a lot of things on our vehicles he can't fix since he hasn't purchased the equipment needed to diagnose and clear codes. Some parts are dealer only, and consequently cost $500 or more without the labor. This is 2x what the public dole provided for a family of two in the 90s per month. I'm sure that number hasn't risen much over the last 15 years. I'd challenge anyone to try to pay phone bills, electricity, buy TP and shampoo, car insurance, repairs, hair cuts, clothing, gas, ad infinitum with that amount of money and not go broke.

There is always a struggle between two groups of people it seems, those who are humanitarian in nature, and those who are capitalistic in nature. If we learned to respect those aspects of each other - one side who manages the financial needs of a community, and the other who manages the humanitarian needs of a community, it seems we'd find a happy medium. But somehow we always move toward the tendency to try and change the others to see things 'our' way, because we believe it's the right way. Maybe both ways are right, and it's more a matter of cooperation and realization that working toward both goals will leave us all with a better world.

I often wonder why we have constant battles over who deserves this and who deserves that. It doesn't seem like it's our place to judge, but more so to fulfill our roles with our own talents in the best ways we can.

I've never understood the need to beat down other people because they're different. If they're bringing harm to someone else, well, that's different. If they aren't, I usually consider it none of my business. But that's just my moral code. I don't expect offering that up here is going to change anyone else's pov, nor is it intended to. I just wish there wasn't so much disagreement and misjudgment of people who are different from ourselves.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Yea Angie it's getting harder to fix modern autos. Those Fiestas are good cars, never worked on one though. Those auto repair manuals are worth their weight in gold for the most part. I've got a 91 civic, that I've replaced the engine, tranny, axle shafts, and too many other things to mention. I went on determination, a book, and some phone calls to my older mechanical brother. My brother told me a few times to just get another car lol. Quit just isn't in my vocabulary . Evaluate the car, and you would be surprised how even with some modern electronics they are similar. Not saying you can fix all of them, but some are easier than others. 
My friend has a newer van, I think about 9 years old. Just recently she had trouble with it. Turned out to be an alternator and exhaust manifold. It cost her over 2,000.00 . Now I could have replaced that for much cheaper and bought some food to store away or a generator with that extra money.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> Finding a good shade tree mechanic these days is a real find.
> 
> Angie


Don't I know it, when I work on my car sometimes I wish I had a nice guy around to share the moment when you hear that motor run.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I think using canning jars is a bad example. Financial status, and the thriftiness or lack thereof, doesn't apply to canning. How many people in your area can? Not many around here. Why can, when you can get food from the store, cheaper and with no effort? I can still get canned veggies for 4/$1. Canning lids (unless you can luck up on a clearance) are gonna run you about 15 or 16c each... and this is just lids, not rings. 15c for a lid, buy a jar and they're 60 to 80c each, new... Even using them over and over, you have 15c in each 'canning', plus all the work, time, and inputs to producing the goods to put in the cans.

Personally, I like it when I can find canning jars... if po' folks were craving em or hoarding em, I'd never run up on a good deal.

As far as folks being poor, why work when someone will take care of your every need and desire?

I've been poor'ish most of my life... but rich, in that I can make do, and scrounge... I got 4 or 5 hundred canning jars this fall, from one of my old school teachers... I 'outlasted' her. She gave me some 'teaser' jars three or four years ago. Then wanted to sell me the rest. She finally gave up and gave me a truck bed stacked full of every size canning jar imaginable.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2009)

texican said:


> How many people in your area can? Not many around here. Why can, when you can get food from the store, cheaper and with no effort? I can still get canned veggies for 4/$1.


That's a good point. Canned veggies at the dollar stores are often 4/$1. It costs a lot to buy fresh veggies and can it, and there's a lot of work and expense in growing a garden (most people don't know how to grow it anyhow). It's not cost- and labor-effective for poor people to can, especially when they can get so much food for "free" (food stamps and food pantries).

And even the working poor not receiving assistance wouldn't necessarily be able to afford to can.


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## cheryl-tx (Jan 3, 2005)

beaglebiz said:


> I walked out with about 8 dozen quart jars and 2 dozen various sized canning jars, for less that $5.


 Are you serious? I am soooo jealous :bow:


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## Aint2nuts (Feb 18, 2008)

cheryl-tx said:


> Are you serious? I am soooo jealous :bow:


I am jealous too, canning jars in my Goodwill are 1.25 EACH -- which is MORE than they cost new. 

Rediculous.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

texican said:


> As far as folks being poor, why work when someone will take care of your every need and desire?


Because it's boring and unfulfilling.


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## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

There are so many different kinds of "poor". I lived in a hotel for a while, and then had nowhere to live when that ran out. I would "cook" rice in the bathroom sink by running the hottest water I could out of the tap. Where could I have used a canner, in that particular situation? Besides, I couldn't fit a canner or quantities of canned food into a backpack, so what would I have done with it when I didn't have anywhere to live?

It would have been cheaper to rent a place than to pay for a weekly hotel, but I didn't have enough for the deposit, so I was stuck spending a lot more if I wanted to have a place to sleep with a door that locked. I made some poor choices too, but I didn't have a car or any fancy electronics to my name.

Things worked out alright for me, I earned enough to get a roof over my head after a while, and didn't use government assistance to do it. But the opportunities that "poor" people have vary widely based on their situation. A person who is "poor" in the country but owns their own land has different options than someone who lives in section 8 housing. The person in the country has some advantages and they also have some disadvantages. Then you have people who are "poor" but earn too much for assistance, and you have people who are "poor" but are truly mentally ill and addicted to drugs and sleeping in alleys. There are so many different situations to consider that it is hard to expect all "poor" people could just go do one certain thing and they wouldn't be poor anymore.

Kayleigh


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2009)

******* said:


> There are so many different kinds of "poor".


That is so true!!


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

When I was at my poorest, I felt the richest... I worked three years for 10$/day... I had free housing (a tent), free food (mostly ), and no bills. At that point in time, canning would have been a non starter, as the cost of the equipment and 'consumables', plus the food, would have been too expensive.

Once I built my home, I had time to cultivate sources, and start the scrounging. I've only bought one case of jars in my life... 1/2 gallon'ers... the rest have all been free. I've raised and had the food given to me, and my only costs were the lids.

So, in my own little 'poor world', I've not canned and have canned... all depended upon the local circumstances.

And even though I probably have over a thousand unfilled canning jars right now, if more make themselves available, I'll avail myself of them, pronto!


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## ldc (Oct 11, 2006)

Even when I lived in "vaguely" middle class apts or in houses w roommates in my twenties, I don't remember ever having a refridgerator freezer that would freeze, etc. It takes a certain standard of living to have appliances that work! It's like having a reliable car; it takes dough and/or luck! if you're cash poor. Or as others said above, skills, and they must be learned somewhere. ldc


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

> As far as folks being poor, why work when someone will take care of your every need and desire?
> 
> Because it's boring and unfulfilling.


Many people seem to disagree with you. They watch tv to fill the time. I dunno how they stand it.

Have you ever seen even a poor school district without a sports program? They'll cut academics before they cut sports. 

Many things are considered rights in this country that are really priveleges. There are opportunities available but there are really two classes of "poor". Those who take the advantages, however rare and far between they are, and those who won't. 

I just heard on the radio that Warren Buffett still lives in the same small house he and his wife bought 40 years ago. 

We've tried to help a guy in town some. His excuses for not doing yard work the day we offer it? "Sorry, the game is on in a couple hours", "I'm going to see a buddy I haven't seen in a while" etc. Thankfully we've had the opportunity to help another guy who takes all the chances given and is making headway. Some people don't want "help" they want to be given it, without working for it. 

BTW, as to "being poor in this country is a living hell" statement... it's just as bad or worse in other countries. This country, while not perfect, does have more chances available imo.


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## Wilhelm (Jun 1, 2003)

Good buy on the canning jars. I bought a pickup load of jars for $5 once at an estate sale. An elderly lady had passed on and her kids were selling everything off, and no one wanted the canning jars. They were delighted when I made an offer for $5. I was woohooing all the way home. 

As for judging the poor, been there and changed my circumstances because I wanted something better. The first step is to quit making excuses and actually do something about it.

Libraries are a wealth of free knowledge and thrift stores are chock full of low priced items to help you on your way. I know this, because I went from raising my daughter on AFDC in low income housing, ie. the projects, to owning my own homestead and living the life I dreamed about.

It took years of dedication and hard hard work to achieve this. If I sat on my butt and cried about how tough I had it, I would still be there, amongst all the "poor" folks. The only thing poor about a lot of these folks is their attitude.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2009)

Gabriel said:


> We've tried to help a guy in town some. His excuses for not doing yard work the day we offer it? "Sorry, the game is on in a couple hours", "I'm going to see a buddy I haven't seen in a while" etc.


I have gotten so frustrated with people! 

In past times, after hearing people moan and complain that they need medicine for the kids, or they're out of groceries, or the kids need shoes, or they have no gas money, etc etc, I have offered simple jobs that would pay them enough to get whatever the amount they said they needed. I'm not talking hard labor, I'm talking easy stuff. I've made the offers when I couldn't afford it myself.

9 times out of 10 they've acted offended. They either made excuses, or they would say, "I don't need the money THAT bad".

Funny how they'd be able to go get their beer and cigs every day. :shrug:

(PS: For the few that have taken me up on my offers, I've been known to go overboard helping them with extra groceries, etc. Those are the ones who prove they really need the help).


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

wendle said:


> How many of you have spent hundreds of dollars on a car repair for something like a alternator or exhaust manifold replacement. Why not fix it yourself?
> .


 Because cars have become way too complicated for the average person. I worked on my own cars when they were 1960 and 1970 models, I'm not sure I have ever raised the hood on my 2001 -- not worth it, you can't even see the engine.
Many people are not mechanically inclined, when something doesn't go exactly how the repair manual shows, they are totally lost.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that vegetable seeds are actually covered by food stamps. (so is ice for those w/o electric)

Doesn't mean folks have space to grow though........still a neat idea if someone uses it.


As for people on food stamps.....some use them and some abuse them, just like any system based on honor. What irks me is something I saw a few weeks ago. A lady at dollar general bought about $10 in make up stuff and some nail polish remover. She paid cash. Then she pulled out her food stamp card to pay for a 20 ounce soda and a junk food snack. That in itself is obvious stupidity to me. I'm not hip to buying total carp with my taxes for someone who has cash to make themelves feel pretty.

Canning is a quickly fading art. Many people may simply be unaware it is even possible. I would guess that is common in your area or you would never have found those jars in the first place.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

mnn2501 said:


> Because cars have become way too complicated for the average person. I worked on my own cars when they were 1960 and 1970 models, I'm not sure I have ever raised the hood on my 2001 -- not worth it, you can't even see the engine.
> Many people are not mechanically inclined, when something doesn't go exactly how the repair manual shows, they are totally lost.



Heh, and then have to pay an extra hundred or so for a tow truck trip to the garage.

Where we lived, nobody was allowed to work on their cars in the parking lot, or ride bicycles, or walk on the grass, nor were grills allowed on the balconies and there was never enough sunlight or space to grow plants.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Unfortunately for me, my employment gave me a real look into people's lives at all levels of society. Facts not stories- in much detail. 
I have talked to peole who are paralized (one guy rolled into the office on bed because he could even sit up,) mentally retarded, emotionally impaired, TVactors, corporate presidents, alcoholics. drug addicts, housewife, nuns, cult leaders, scientists, politicians, etc etc etc. I have seen families from the worse situations, 5 years old girls cooking for their drugged out mom, grandparents (endlessly) raising their druggie offsprings children, adolescents and centenarians, women who were stay at homes mome and their husband's left, people with aids, etc. I have not talked to a President of the US.
Some people just do - not matter how hard or little they have. They can even be happy on very little. They can and do take care of themselves- they don't even think about not doing the best they can. Bad things happen but they deal with them.
Some just don't do- even if blessed with all the resources in the world. They look for things outside of themselves for reasons for difficulties. They follow the same paths that got them into trouble again and again. They chose the immediate satisfaction over the plan for the day after tommorrow. 
In all the years I did this, only one out of thousands and thousands of people who found himself without resources said to me that "It was my own fault- I had a good time for a long time." I liked him- actually treasured him- he was taken in by a church group, owned nothing, was sweeping the church to pay for his room- yet he was doing as much as a person in his situation could do. Admirable in my book.
I was told once by a woman who was 23 with two children by different fathers, that it was stupid for the government to keep paying her welfare- if they would just pay for her college education, and provide child care while she did it, she could get a good paying job. Nothing about not having another child with no means of supporting it- said no to the work plans offered because that wouldn't get her a job that would pay enough to be worth it. No interest in non-magical solutions at all.
For the person in her exact situation, on welfare, who took the bottom of the heap job, worked her way up to a decent salary while dealing with the stress of taking care of kids on her own- which is my best friend- nothing but admiration.
I guess after so many years of the same lame stories, of being told only parts of the story to get sympathy, I know bull when it clumps into my office. Always reason why not.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

When I escaped my ex to a domestic violence shelter I didn't want welfare. I had to get food stamps and medical though, was required by the shelter. Probably good because I gots me a strong sense of pride.

I worked my rear off job hunting. Got a menial job within a week when other women were whining about there being no work locally. (I got the job, one of many available from a note on the shelter bulletin board) 

I didn't have the right shoes for standing on concrete 8 hours at a stretch. Everyone marveled at how hard I worked and how efficient I was at my demeaning job. Truth was the movement spared me the excruciating pain from standing still in the wrong shoes.

Couldn't come in to the food stamp office to pick up my card because the only scheduled times were when I worked. I begged and pleaded with the worker to make an exception, all he could do is site the scheduled hours. Told him I couldn't miss work from my new job. (needed food for my empty fridge in my new apartment, had a kid with me)

I had to call the supervisor and explain that I needed food, my case was approved but I couldn't afford to get fired to come in to get the card. He was rude rude rude but told me to come in anyway. I got a major lecture about not coming at the scheduled two hour window in the week for the card like everyone else. I couldn't afford the dignity to set him straight. 

The case worker, now very mad at me took me back to his office after the whole 3 minutes it took to issue my card. I asked him if there was any way I could please get help with some shoes for work. I told him my feet were in agony and even some inserts with padding would work, just $5 worth of foot pads. His reply was "no can do, you only get help like that if you are on welfare".

In the nastiest, through gritted teeth voice I could muster I replied "excuse me sir but I got a job so I wouldn't have to be on welfare, thank you very much."

I also burst into tears, never went back to keep my case open and lived lean for awhile. I also understand why those offices need secuirty guards. *grrrrr* 

It didn't matter my attitude and fight got me a job for double what I was making at the menial job within a couple weeks. Most of the ladies who were at the shelter before me were still there long after I left................

Sometimes in spite of the odds being against a person, no matter how hard the fight and how poorly stacked the deck you just got to get up and dust yourself off. There are no super heros who will come save you. Waiting for one and expecting things to change without actually trying is ridiculous. Doesn't matter if you are depressed, handicapped or anything else, you get through this life under your own steam, doesn't have to be fair.

The sooner people grow up and quit sniveling the better off they are. I have seen too many people with major physical ailments fight like heck to get ahead to feel even an ounce of pity for a simply poor person who wasn't raised to know better. Time to grow up and quit enabling those with less. If they use a hand up as a hand out that is their problem.


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## Durandal (Aug 19, 2007)

I think there its a mistake to generalize. Many people with little or no income DO indeed live a thrifty lifestyle.


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## lettermom (Apr 4, 2008)

What do you consider poor?


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

My issue with "poor people", example (real) sixteen children, ALL at the taxpayers' expense, not one, to date has finished school, all of a certain age have reproduced, ALL of them on some kind of assisstance. They refuse to work! That is my issue. Really not my definition of poor either. 
My non-issue with poor people, having the rug pulled out from under you and struggling and scraping to get by with/without help. Not being a "lifer", not having an attitude of "I am OWED!" (Had a tenant like that.)


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

hintonlady said:


> When I escaped my ex to a domestic violence shelter I didn't want welfare. I had to get food stamps and medical though, was required by the shelter. Probably good because I gots me a strong sense of pride.
> 
> I worked my rear off job hunting. Got a menial job within a week when other women were whining about there being no work locally. (I got the job, one of many available from a note on the shelter bulletin board)
> 
> ...


I admire you greatly....


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I know this will be another bash at our broken system of welfare, but when everything is handed to you, and you don't have to work for a thing, you value those things less. I have been beating my head against the old proverbial wall when I see a mom in front of me buying chips, candy, soda and so forth with those food cards. At least get a stinking head of lettuce or something, for the sake of those poor kids!!!

ETA: And it REALLY gripes my cookies to see them buying this stuff at 7-11 where the prices are marked up beyond ridiculous!!


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## Turtle Bean (May 25, 2008)

Wow. Great thread and some very interesting stories! I admire many of you even more now! 

FWIW, canning is a luxury to me. I find that it costs more to grow and home can food than it would to buy it at the store. I can for the health benefits not for the $$$ savings. 

Also, to repeat an earlier post, canning is not a common skill today. Think about how many people don't know how to cook beans or rice or bread from scratch. Canning is an even more specialized task with it's own set of expensive equipment. Add to that, the fact that canning is an incredible amount of work and it's pretty obvious why people no longer home can. My Grandmother, who is now in her 80's, was just commenting on how glad she was that she doesn't have to can anymore although she is thrilled to get homecanned produce and jams from me at Christmas. 

Canning and gardening are a lifestyle choice for me and in my situation, it is definitely not the most economical choice in terms of $$$, but in terms of health, the homegrown, canned route can't be beat.


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## bekab (Oct 14, 2008)

I have a brother that makes 180K a year and can hardly pay his bills. His internet and cable is shut off every other month, he buys $20 worth of Sunday papers for the coupons and spends $300 a week WITH coupons on groceries.

His children get anything they want. He has made it clear that they are never to be told "no". He went off on me one time because I told his daughter, my niece, "no you can't have McDonald's".

He has never owned a house and rents one of those McMansions for $4000 a month.

Together, my husband I have made half of that last year and still managed to save $30,000 for the year. We don't live in a fancy house, but it's a cozy country home with a little land.

He has 2 children, I have 4 and my grocery bill, is often only $20 a week. That's with the occassional 2 Sunday papers for coupons. Only occassionally.

My brother feels entitled and wants a piece of a bailout. His whole family is fat from all the "grocery" savings and thinks that the goverment should help them lose weight, too. We're not fat, but we're not hungry or begging for anything, either.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2009)

bekab said:


> I have a brother that makes 180K a year and can hardly pay his bills. His internet and cable is shut off every other month, he buys $20 worth of Sunday papers for the coupons and spends $300 a week WITH coupons on groceries.


He's doing the coupons all wrong. If you use them properly, you can bring your grocery bill down to nothing.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

bekab said:


> I have a brother that makes 180K a year and can hardly pay his bills. His internet and cable is shut off every other month, he buys $20 worth of Sunday papers for the coupons and spends $300 a week WITH coupons on groceries.
> 
> His children get anything they want. He has made it clear that they are never to be told "no". He went off on me one time because I told his daughter, my niece, "no you can't have McDonald's".
> 
> ...



Don't mean to be snarky but it will sure be cool for you to be able to tell him "I told you so" in a decade or so.:nana:

Those kids are going to have some problems. 

Never hearing "NO" is just beyond me, how on earth do you live like that? If it weren't for the word "no" and sometimes "heck no" I wouldn't know how to be a Mom.


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## avandris (Jun 8, 2007)

HintonLady, I totally agree with you about the word NO. I am dealing with the repercussions of a family that does not say no who are in our homeschooling group. It has made me and my dh decide that we will have to keep the group at arm's length now. I will stop or I will take the thread way off topic.  Good for you in saying No!


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## CindyLou62 (Aug 22, 2008)

bekab,

You are rich, your brother is poor...


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## littlekari (Jul 10, 2008)

Can I ask what exactly is poor? You can have millions of dollars and be poor. Around here (until the last few months) the "poor" people were capable of having a job but chose to live on the system. They would rather steal or sell drugs to support themselves. And yes some had nicer clothes and cars then we do. They wait for handouts and would rather sit on their rears all day. I have family members that go to garage sales and pick up canning jars for me $1 a box--with anywere from 12 to 24 jars in each because no one wants to spend the time canning anymore. They would rather take their government check to buy pop and chips. I picked up a canner in a box and had to replace the gasket for $5 plus the $11 for the gasket. At the time I could afford a new canner.

With the economy people are now realizing they don't have anything since they spent it on new campers, video games, computers, cars and stuff they didn't need. We have friends that have money but live "poor" shopping at second hand stores, canning all of their food, driving old cars, living in a house that needs fixing up just like us. Thing is they saved and so they aren't hurting they buckled down more like most of us. She made the comment once that "You know who your true friends are when you are poor. We have been poor and live like we are poor now and we have true friends." If you have no money to buy even a can of tuna and are happy aren't you more rich then a millionare that is miserable?


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## lettermom (Apr 4, 2008)

My dh makes about $26,000 a year and we live in a 2 bedroom home with all 8 soon to be 9 of us  Soooo lots of people would probably call us poor but I don't feel poor at all. I would like more space but this works ok for now, we can afford it without help. We could live in town and get assistance to have a nicer way bigger home for less $ but we like to have the freedom and space (outside lol) here and to be doing it on our own as far as the house goes. I want to can this year, I hope to get a canner at tax time but i have NO clue how to can really. I haven't before, but its not because i don't want to.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Canning really isn't that hard. Go to the food preservation section of HT and you'll find all the help you need.


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## lettermom (Apr 4, 2008)

Thanks Cyngbaeld!! I'll look there!  Theres alot of things I want to learn! I actually need to learn to can so I can feed our family healthy food during the winter months. My kids are getting HUGE appetites!


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## Marilyn (Aug 2, 2006)

lettermom:
Where do you live? There are so many of us all over the country (and beyond), that is very likely that a canning homesteader lives near you. It is SO much more fun to can with someone - and it's even easier to learn while actually doing it. I don't want to cause a drift, but please PM me if you're interested.
Marilyn


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

With a GDP that mounts to $46,000 per man, woman and child in this country, one has to question exactly why we have poverty in this country to begin with.

And I don't buy laziness as an answer. People have a natural drive to perform and succeed. The problem is lack of access and lack of incentive, not to mention the truly 'entitled' folks who believe their efforts are worth $50,000,000 more per year than the guy standing next to him on the street, who skim the majority of the profits off the top for their own pockets.

To me, that's the epitome of entitlement. The truly sad thing is, the masses buy this horse manure, and spew it forth toward their neighbor, blaming them for their own misfortunes, when in fact, his labors have been exploited by the entitlement class.


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## lettermom (Apr 4, 2008)

Marilyn, I live in Nebraska I'll pm you where  I WISH I had someone to help me learn I would love that!! Oh and I have a glass top electric stove too. that was something I was worried about, can I do it on that? I have heard yes and no.


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## quietstar (Dec 11, 2002)

Pride and determination to do your best to do the right thing always lives under the heading of character and is NEVER dependent on finances. Compassion and empathy also show character but need not be extended to those who choose to be parasites and ignore independent responsibility. Fuzzy headed liberals encourage these sorry cop-outs by making excuses rather than encouraging character development...Glen


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## Guest (May 10, 2011)

I was searching the forum and came across this old thread. In view of the food stamp discussion, it might be nice to revisit this.

I noticed I posted about canned vegetables being $1/4. That was only 2 years ago! Now they're usually well over 50 cents each even when they're on sale!


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

pickapeppa said:


> With a GDP that mounts to $46,000 per man, woman and child in this country, one has to question exactly why we have poverty in this country to begin with.
> 
> And I don't buy laziness as an answer. People have a natural drive to perform and succeed. The problem is lack of access and lack of incentive, not to mention the truly 'entitled' folks who believe their efforts are worth $50,000,000 more per year than the guy standing next to him on the street, who skim the majority of the profits off the top for their own pockets.
> 
> To me, that's the epitome of entitlement. The truly sad thing is, the masses buy this horse manure, and spew it forth toward their neighbor, blaming them for their own misfortunes, when in fact, his labors have been exploited by the entitlement class.


I strongly disagree! 

Some people understand the old saying "If you don't work, you don't eat!" Far too many others believe that they aren't responsible for their choices and lack of initiative because they are being "kept down by the man" and that the worlds owes them everything. They don't save what money they do have coming in, instead it gets spent on booze, cigs and cable tv because "they deserve it." 

Barring a mental deficiency, *
the only person keeping anyone down is themselves. *


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

ladycat said:


> I was searching the forum and came across this old thread. In view of the food stamp discussion, it might be nice to revisit this.
> 
> I noticed I posted about canned vegetables being $1/4. That was only 2 years ago! Now they're usually well over 50 cents each even when they're on sale!


Here they are on sale for $1 a can - crazy!


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Everyone - do me a BIG favor.
Before getting all heated up about any post more than 5 above this, note that it's from 2 YEARS AGO. The poster you may be griping about may not even be posting on HT or this forum any longer, and the ideas posted, could be out of date - even for the poster.

Remember, most of this thread is from 2009!


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

<soapbox>

The problem here is a misunderstanding of terms. There's a difference between poverty and not having money.

I grew up really poor, and gradually worked my way out of it. The real work that brought me out of poverty was internal though, not just getting an increasingly larger paycheck. Having broken out of poverty, whether or not I happen to have any money in my pocket is almost irrelevant - I'm not poor either way. Poverty for me, was a condition of my youth, so my opinion isn't universally applicable. It is most relevant to the state of inherited poverty, rather than to the downwardly-mobile adult.

My story is that my mom was from a multi-generationally poor family. They were poor and had always been poor. She had eight siblings, and most of them are still poor, as are my cousins on that side. Two of them managed to break free. My dad on the other hand, was from an upper middle-class family, but was the black sheep. He knew the right things to do, but simply, frequently by active intention, refused to do them, and quite often did something radically different instead. The result, as seen from the perspective of my childhood, although my Dad made a decent salary, there was little food in the house, the utilities may or may not be on at any given time, and we might be evicted and have to move on short notice. My parents placed almost no value on education, and rarely had two nickels to rub together. I remember seeing my dad's paycheck - I know that he made a reasonable income, but I haven't the faintest idea of what they did with the money.

As bad as all that was, it managed to get dramatically worse. My mom got sick with cancer and after five years in and out of the hospital, died. When she died, my dad didn't have enough money to bury her.

I was a little entrepeneur. Starting at the age of seven, I went around canvassing the neighborhood for odd job, working for loose change. When I was eleven, I started cutting grass almost every day during the warm months. I gave most of the money I earned to my parents, but that didn't seem to help much. They had taught me that I needed to work if I wanted things - so they weren't completely ignorant, and my dad always had a job, at least until I was 16 and he disappeared. I was already paying my own way for pretty much everything, so his leaving didn't really change my life much.

Life as a 'poor kid' sucked. The writer, Frank McCourt ('Tis, and Angela's Ashes)put it best describing his own childhood: "When you're the child of a poor family, everything you see in life is a reminder of the things you don't have, and can't have, and will probably never have." 

That sums up my memories of that period of my life best. I remember the overwhelming WANT. I wanted everything, and was determined somehow to get it. All I knew about how to get things though was to work - and I was working. HARD. I still didn't have anything though. I didn't know what then, but I knew there was something else to it - something that I didn't know, and couldn't even guess at, or even how to find out. My hunches were that education had something to do with it, knowing the right people, and savings. I tried moving in those directions with mixed success. Saving is really hard when you're working your butt off and you're still cold and hungry.

I worked a lot of crappy jobs - long hours, at hard, dirty work, for not much pay. Like my parents before me, I never had any money. I did finish high school on my own, and scraped my way through college. By the time I got out of college, I had a little more than doubled my income from where it was when I started - I was making $3.35/hour when I started, and $8.00/hour when I finished. I still had nothing to show for it, and rarely had more than a couple dollars in my pocket.

After college I joined the Navy. Coming up the way I had, military life was a walk in the park. Basic food, clothing, and shelter were provided, PLUS a salary. Boot camp was the first time in life that I'd ever had three square meals a day. I was one of those rare people who gained weight in boot camp. I already had my education, and was a little older than the average recruit, and I had picked my field well, so I excelled, and advanced quickly. I had a regular paycheck, so I finally, I could get things, and I got a lot of things. Nice things. I was still poor though, and couldn't figure out why.

I finally got my first clue one year while I was doing my taxes. When I saw my gross income (maybe $20,000) I couldn't believe I was making that much money. It finally dawned on me then that even though I thought I was smarter than the average young sailor because I didn't get myself into debt - I 'lived within my means', I was never going to get anywhere at the rate I was going. The only way to progress from poverty to non-poverty was to voluntarily live below my means, and save and/or invest the difference. That was a nifty idea, and who knows where I would have ended up if I had followed through with it - instead, I got married.

Eleven years later, my then wife having managed my finances the whole time I was at sea, my income had more than doubled again, but I had no money in my pocket, and $60,000 in debt to show for my hard work. I was still poor. Then my world collapsed - I got injured, diagnosed with a degenerative neurological disease, medically discharged from the Navy, and divorced. It was painful, but after a couple months of feeling sorry for myself, and two years of rehabilitation - spiritually, mentally, financially, and physically, I came to look at the situation as a new chance at life. I had a 'do-over'.

In my new life, I've never been poor. My first civillian job required taking a pay cut from what I'd been making in the Navy. Within two years though, I'd doubled that, and since then, I've doubled it again. That's almost irrelevant though - I have a new wife now, and two children to boot, so I have greater responsibilities. What makes me not poor though is my outlook on life in general, and money in particular.

The most important change - brought about by the catharsis of my old life collapsing, was that I finally broke the chains of 'Want' and learned the joy of 'Have'. It's ironic that once I stopped wanting money, I started making more of it than I'd ever imagined. Don't get me wrong - it's not that I don't actually want money. It's an important tool for managing life in the modern world, but that's all it is - a tool. I treat it exactly the way I treat my saws or chisels. I take care of them, I maintain them, and I use them appropriately, but the fact that I know how to use my chisels, and what I use my chisels on is much more important than the number of chisels I have or what brand they are. Conversely, if you don't know what you're doing with money or chisels, or understand their proper use and role, more than likely you're going to do more harm to yourself and others and not get a single useful thing done. Additionally, to push the metaphor a bit further towards the bounds of absurdity - the chisel (or money) you actually have in your hand is much more useful than all the other chisels in the world that you don't have, no matter how cool they are.

ANyway, that's why I'm not poor any more, and why I don't worry about not having any money.

</soapbox>


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## Betho (Dec 27, 2006)

ladycat said:


> I'd like to see more people fight their way out of poverty. A few do. Most don't try. I think it's a cultural thing. *People born into a beaten down situation are resigned that they will never be different.*


This is exactly it. Threads like this bother me, because we spend so much time criticizing people but I've seen firsthand just exactly how far the idea of NOT being poor is removed from many of these people's comprehension.

My husband comes from a family like that. His mom? Typical welfare mom, doesn't want to work, has convinced herself that she's somehow unable to work although she couldn't tell you why besides her usual "fibromyalgia" and "depression" excuses. Shopped around for a doctor to declare her disabled, lived on food stamps and spent what she could on eating out. The woman refuses to cook, literally. Microwaving is all she'll do, and she loved the fact that Papa Murphy's takes foodstamps.

She had four children. Her oldest hated the life so much that he pretty much alienated himself from the family and put himself through school. He's now very well off, but the thing is, he turned into a pompous jerk and didn't try to HELP his siblings do the same, instead he looked down on them. 

The rest of them? One got pregnant at 14 by a man who was ten years older than her. 30 years later they are still married, though they barely survive financially. The other two just worked menial jobs and have pretty much floated, including my husband.

So, to them, it was either live the life they did where they were poor but at least people cared about each other, or be the rich pompous arrogant jerk. They had NO CONCEPT of anything in between. My husband is the youngest of her kids. 

I was kind of a Pollyanna when I got married, like many of us were, and I did not realize the blood, sweat and tears it would take for me to get him to understand and conceive of a life without food stamps and government assistance, where you could own your own home and not be beholden to anyone. You didn't need to be a jerk to do it, and you weren't "selling out" by going back to school.

The funny thing is, I also had no concept of some things. I had no concept of people who think that living with food stamps and government assistance is NORMAL. They don't know otherwise, or don't think it's attainable.

It took me years and years and even a temporary separation to get into his head that it IS attainable and you CAN rise above it. Once he got it, though, he really got it. 

Now we're not on govt assistance, he has a career that he loves, and he makes enough for me to stay home with the kids, live the homesteading life that we love, and even make some financial progress.

But please understand - while he WAS responsible for his actions as an adult, I will never ever in a million years blame him for the way he was raised and the fact that in his mind, living a lifestyle beyond renting a cheap apartment, eating mac & cheese that you bought on food stamps might as well been living on the moon. I'm dead serious, it took me years to understand that was his mindset. Doesn't mean it's RIGHT, because it isn't. Sure didn't help that the one person in his family who "rose above" was an arrogant jerk who basically told his family he hated them and never to talk to him. How's that for an example?

But when kids grow up with the mindset of "this is all there is to life, we live, sit on the couch, smoke pot, and don't do anything" as opposed to "you can make anything you want of yourself, you just have to work for it," it takes a lot to counteract that, and usually a third party who is not ingrained in that lifestyle.

My husband has told me many times that he is so happy he married me for many reasons but he knows that he could not have made it out of that "mire" without me helping him and pushing him to do it. Now he's started to try and help his other brother who is floating around in life without goals, because he has seen firsthand how great life can be if you are paving your own way.

Sorry about the long BOOK! lol. And I get just as annoyed at the shopping carts filled with frozen food. But I see this a lot here on HT, sitting around criticizing these people but I don't hear a whole lot of talk about anybody trying to help people in their life learn how to go beyond it.

ANd the truth is, there's two eating healthy. THere's the buying all the healthy food at the store, and YES that is expensive, way more expensive than frozen/boxed food. But then you reach a more DIy level where you might be grinding grains to bake your bread, and buying beans, rice, etc. in bulk, growing your own produce, and it becomes significantly cheaper.

Please just remember that these people much of the time have never even had it on their radar to do anything different. It's better to try and influence those around you and show them what is possible, rather than put them down for repeating what it is they have been taught all their life.


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## wagvan (Jan 29, 2011)

SquashNut said:


> There is nothing I hate worse than putting other people down so you can make your self feel better.
> i love my garden and being able to can the extras for my family. But i don't think it makes me better than some one who isn't able to do have a garden. It takes alot to get to the point where you can can any amount of food.


:thumb:


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## MichaelK! (Oct 22, 2010)

Deleted! I didn't notice the 2 pages of posts following.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

NoClue - outstanding.


When I was going thru the divorce, my lawyer told me I was going to be poor. I had to correct her and tell her I might be financially challenged, but with the girls, I'd not be poor.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Almost every poor person is poor due to the choices they make/made.


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## Staceyy (Jun 16, 2007)

Okay I just asked someone poor. The response, "We get food stamps. Why would we need to can?"


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## KIT.S (Oct 8, 2008)

I agree it's so difficult to break out of molds made when we are kids. My son, at 16, taught some friends to shop in grocery stores, believe it or not. They are 8 or so years older than he, at the time had 3 kids, and never got to the end of the foodstamp-month with food in their cupboards. She would shop the way her mother shopped: walk into the store and buy what you wanted for dinner that night. Never even sales! coupons or planning ahead. Ha! That was NOT the way my kids were raised. So he went through the newspaper with them, went to the grocery store, helped pick out things that would make plenty of food for the money, and copied down our family recipes. 
No one had ever showed these kids how to live!

*Warning: Soapbox:* I believe every school kid should be required to take and pass a class for "Life 101." How to budget. How to balance a checking account. How to figure interest. How to read/negotiate an apartment lease and a car purchase. The class should include basic nutrition and, if not food preservation, at least how to keep food from going to waste in the kitchen! 

If parents don't understand the basics, how can they teach their kids?

And yes, if people in my vicinity want to start (canning, drying, butchering) I'd be pleased to work with them.
Kit


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

watcher said:


> Almost every poor person is poor due to the choices they make/made.


I read this and I thought - I just want to smack you upside the head with a large iron skillet.

Then I think, I did make the choice to marry the guy that built the riches while we were married, and then make the bad business choices.

I did choose to raise the kids and work a job.
I did choose to live on my parent's property when invited, and I did choose to not take their guff when being thrown off as they didn't approve of how I was raising my daughters.

So, choices do matter - 

Just some choices have a lot of other people in the mix.


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

I'm not being hateful or anything when I ask this BUT what does this thread have to do with S &EP? 

The other food stamps thread on here got started with the OP stating that we would have more looting and crime because people wouldn't be getting their food stamps. I can see why that is S&EP. However, most didn't touch on that, it was all about bashing people on FS. 

Good grief, I started avoiding GC and Politics because of so many posts like this. Do I need to start avoiding here as well? And yes I know I do not have to read the thread but it is a bit aggravating to see them cropping up on here. I learn so much from this forum....and it is because of people who were nice and helpful that I got off food stamps. People on here that gave me a kind word not a "well, I had such and such happen which is much worse than you and I didn't need help" attitude.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

whiskeylivefire - you do have a point.

Let's get this back to helping those on food stamps or letting it die, or be shot.

Angie


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

Thanks, Angie...and I love your "freudian slip" on my name lol.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

There's some good reading on this thread.
I enjoyed NoClue and Betho's posts (just read the last page)
Sometimes it helps to look into the thought process of others.


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## Ruby (May 10, 2002)

There is a BIG differance in POOR and LAZY. You cannot tell the differance by looking at them. I was raised POOR. My daddy was a truck driver and most of the time my mother didn't have money for food. She would have to find a little mom and pop store and get credit. My dad was gone sometime 3 or 4 weeks at a time. It cost him so much to live on the road he didn't have much left of his paycheck. He gave every penny to my mother when he got home but it wasn't enough to stretch.

This was back in the 50's and he made only 10% of what the load paid because BIG boss man got the rest. My mother tried to garden but she wasn't physicaly able to do much. But she taught me what she could.

We are now living below the poverty level but we have dug out enough we have paid off our place. But cannot afford a decent home so we have a 1956 model trailer. But guess what? It's paid for.

I have a canner I bought back in the '80s at K-Mart by putting it on lay-way. My problem is finding canning jars. The thrift stores around here don't have any and when they do they want as much as Wal-Mart. I guess they think they are antique. I buy mine when they are on sale or friends give them to me.

So please don't lump ALL POOR people together. You just don't know their story.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

If I had been able to stick with my chosen career, I should have been making well over 100k/yr for at least the last couple of decades. Instead I've been living on disability since 88. Spent 3 yrs in a wheelchair. Then fought cancer for 15 yrs. Now I'm dealing with lupus.

Since salaries were still relatively low when I had to quit, my check was also low. So instead of 100k+ I'm on 13k per yr. It wasn't a choice to become poor. It is a choice to make the best of a bad situation. I don't get FS. I live in a tin mansion, but its paid for. I was able to get this land at a fraction of the usual cost and a used tin mansion. Both rather distressed. Even got pretty much wiped in the flood in 07. When I wasn't able to help myself recover from that, the Lord sent me some help.

I think the difference is that I never let myself think I was poor. When you think you are poor, you feel deprived and then at every chance, you are trying to make yourself feel un-deprived. It is like going on a strict low carb diet. If you aren't doing it because you, yourself want to do it and have a reachable goal in mind, you will cheat on your diet. Most people who cheat on a diet end up eating more than they would have if they weren't "dieting" because of the emotional deprivation.

When you see "poor" people wasting money on things like big screen tvs it is that they are convinced they should have good things like "everybody else" even if everybody else doesn't really have those "good" things. I dont have tv at all and could care less about it. My focus isn't on tvs and the fanciest latest gadget. I don't need those things to feel good about myself. 

Survivors will not dwell on the past or what is lost or what they don't have. Survivors will look at their situation and ask themselves, "what can I do to make this better". Survivors don't look at other people and rag on them for being poor or a "useless eater". Survivors will sometimes give a hand up to someone is struggling, but don't let themselves wallow in guilt for having preps while others do not or feel they have to give everything away to "the less fortunate". Survivors work on having a mental balance between true needs (like food and clothing and shelter) and unnecessary luxuries (like big screen tv). Survivors don't look at their preps and say "well at least I have more than most of the population". Survivors do look at their preps and say "I have enough to last till next harvest and if next harvest is bad, I have enough to last till the one after."


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## Ohiogal (Mar 15, 2007)

> Survivors will not dwell on the past or what is lost or what they don't have. Survivors will look at their situation and ask themselves, "what can I do to make this better". Survivors don't look at other people and rag on them for being poor or a "useless eater". Survivors will sometimes give a hand up to someone is struggling, but don't let themselves wallow in guilt for having preps while others do not or feel they have to give everything away to "the less fortunate".


Couldn't have said it better....its about how you survive, not how poor you are. A prosperous man is not measured by the money in his bank account, or the change in his pocket.


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## Staceyy (Jun 16, 2007)

I have never been poor and I do not can. I am 60 years old. I was raised in the city. I never knew what canning was until a few years ago. I also had never heard of the concept of prepping or stockpiling so it never dawned on me to do so. I prep now. If I were to become poor and had never heard about canning, it would not dawn on me to can. I am just learning to garden. I am sure I will eventually learn to can now that I am aware of it.


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## Guest (May 10, 2011)

whiskeylivewire said:


> I'm not being hateful or anything when I ask this BUT what does this thread have to do with S &EP?


A lot. Unthrifty people (poor or not), are the ones who are totally unprepared when disaster strikes.



Ruby said:


> We are now living below the poverty level but we have dug out enough we have paid off our place. But cannot afford a decent home so we have a 1956 model trailer. But guess what? It's paid for.





Cyngbaeld said:


> I think the difference is that I never let myself think I was poor. When you think you are poor, you feel deprived and then at every chance, you are trying to make yourself feel un-deprived.


Poor is more state-of-mind than income. 

Attitude and industriousness is everything.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

About a year ago we looked up the poverty level chart. Untill then. I had no idea we were poor.
But we have always had a garden, and have canned, used coupons and bought what we have with cash. It wasn't till this last 2 1/2 years that things got tough for us.
But they say it takes money to make money and I think that applies here too.
If you don't have the money to buy the jars and lids, canners and a stove you can can on. It does make things rough.
During the first depresion they had canning kitchens. That sure would help now.
The senior center here gave the local kids cooking lessons awhile back and the local high school had canning classes for adults to sign up for.
I would ask around about some thing like that.


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## Guest (May 10, 2011)

Scripture of the day: 

Proverbs 13:11 - Wealth gained hastily will dwindle, but whoever gathers little by little will increase it.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

I was raised in a rural environment. As a child in the 70's, I only knew of two people who canned and I believe that they only waterbath canned. One person, I didn't know very well and really had no reason to be in her house. I only knew that she canned because she set up a table at the roadside to sell some applesauce. I don't know if she also pressure canned...The other was my babysitter, I saw her make jelly a couple of times, but she didnt do it on a regular basis. So, even in rural areas in the 70's, canning wasn't too common.

My best friend is in her 60's and has lived in a city for her entire life. While she remembered her mom canning all sorts of fruits and veggies, she never learned how to do it.


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## nduetime (Dec 15, 2005)

TheMartianChick said:


> I was raised in a rural environment. As a child in the 70's, I only knew of two people who canned and I believe that they only waterbath canned. One person, I didn't know very well and really had no reason to be in her house. I only knew that she canned because she set up a table at the roadside to sell some applesauce. I don't know if she also pressure canned...The other was my babysitter, I saw her make jelly a couple of times, but she didnt do it on a regular basis. So, even in rural areas in the 70's, canning wasn't too common.
> 
> My best friend is in her 60's and has lived in a city for her entire life. While she remembered her mom canning all sorts of fruits and veggies, she never learned how to do it.


Just goes to show that children really do learn what they live. My mother and most of her friends always canned. I grew up with huge gardens, sewing clothes, and needleworking, along with couponing, hunting and fishing. We always had enough and were always clothed. As I grew up I did and do the same things.I never even thought twice about it.

There were times I did not do all that I knew how to and slacked off for convenience but there were still many things I did do. I am still a lousy knitter though and just get by.

My daughter gardens, sews, and cans as well. She did not start doing it herself as young as I did but she is doing it. 

Honestly, I am amazed at the amount of people that do not have any idea on how to preserve foods by canning, dehydrating, smoking, or freezing.....I am longwinded...sorry!


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## michelleIL (Aug 29, 2004)

hintonlady said:


> I may be wrong but I was under the impression that vegetable seeds are actually covered by food stamps. (so is ice for those w/o electric)
> 
> Doesn't mean folks have space to grow though........still a neat idea if someone uses it.
> 
> ...


BTDT!!! Bought the soda, and I don't blame her for doing it either! Why should someone's crappy job deprive them of their human dignity. If the makeup and such make her feel good about herself to take her mind off the nagging poverty, why not? Judge and you shall be judged!


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## michelleIL (Aug 29, 2004)

hates thrreadds that are two years old! LOL


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I don't think there is many in this country that are in nagging poverty. They may not have all the cash they would like to spend, but we as a country sure do better than others.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

michelleIL said:


> hates thrreadds that are two years old! LOL


It's called "necroposting". The revival of dead threads.


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## Ode (Sep 20, 2006)

Riverdale said:


> nope
> 
> they just want to be taken care of, without having to work for it.





SquashNut said:


> I don't think there is many in this country that are in nagging poverty. They may not have all the cash they would like to spend, but we as a country sure do better than others.


There was a time in my life when I lived on the verge of homelessness for years. Every day was a struggle to make sure my child was fed and kept safely housed. He was wheelchair bound, with Duchenne's Muscular Dystrophy, and didn't have the strength to push his own chair. Because of this, we had to live in handicap accessible housing, which was much more expensive than any of the much cheaper options for those without a need for accessibility. 

I worked 3 different jobs to afford the small apartment, and basic utilities. Two of those jobs were only part time work, with a catering company. But those catering jobs meant every time I worked one I would be fed. And a possibility of being able to take leftovers home to feed my son. I knew how to can, I grew up with a family that hunted and fished and gardened, and did plenty of home canning and dehydrating. But there just wasn't any extra money to pay for any canning supplies, let alone a pressure canner. I did use leftover mayonnaise jars and did water bath canning of homemade jam. We had a lot of wild grape vines in the area so when the grapes were ripening I would spend every free moment I had gleaning the fruit.

If I had not had a handicapped child to care for, I could have gotten much better employment. But because my son would often get very ill and need care, my employment opportunities were limited. I remember a very desperate time when my old and broken down vehicle finally gave up the ghost, and I knew there was absolutely no money for repairs let alone replacement. A friend let me use his car for several months, and then my cousin had his extra car repaired and put new tires on then told me the car was mine to use until I was back on my feet...however long that took. No strings. I cried, the relief was so strong.

There were times when I didn't eat, so my son could. His father couldn't have cared less about our struggles and contributed nothing to our expenses. His family enabled his irresponsible actions by allowing him to work for cash so that he had no income on paper. During this time, I met the man I am now married to. He took us both in, understanding that he would effectively become my son's father and that he could not ever expect anything from my son's biological father (sad, as we had been married for 15 years before I finally was forced to leave him). 

If it had not been for this wonderful man, we might never have been able to climb out of the deep well of poverty we were mired in. Not for lack of effort, or desire. But the sheer weight of circumstances and the burden of having to do it all alone. My husband is the type of man I wish my son had been able to become, had he been born without the horrible disease that eventually took his life. Many people judged me for my circumstances without ever taking the time to consider how I had arrived there. They only saw the fact that I was poor, and didn't have the type of job that they assumed I should be willing to work at. They never saw the situation that kept me from being able to get better employment.

So I don't judge. You never know what personal road through hell they are trying to walk.


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## cc (Jun 4, 2006)

I can't help but ask a question here, Don't the "poor" that are being discussed read, have access to a library books and their internet services, the simple desire to learn or even watch television? In this day and age how can you watch TV not be bombarded with nutrition information, obesity causes and cures, the sins of McDonalds, etc? Even if you can't grow your own veggies at home aren't there are lots of community gardens? I know that when I was on food stamps you could buy seeds with them. It is hard for me to understand the attitude of not wanting to "do better" if not for themselves but for their children (or maybe the other way around). I am not trying to push anyone's buttons here, I am just really wondering what I am not understanding.


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## Guest (May 11, 2011)

SquashNut said:


> I don't think there is many in this country that are in nagging poverty. They may not have all the cash they would like to spend, but we as a country sure do better than others.


You're right!


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

ladycat said:


> A lot. Unthrifty people (poor or not), are the ones who are totally unprepared when disaster strikes.
> 
> Poor is more state-of-mind than income.
> 
> Attitude and industriousness is everything.


I agree with you on that, Ladycat but it seems these posts turn into bashing. I love the tightwad tips and I love the encouragment that so many give. HT and this forum and CF have literally saved me from still being on food stamps. We still have the same amount of kids, the same amount of money(a little more saved for emergencies than before) but the hard work and livestock and gardening supplies have increased. 

I know of a few families that have no clue about canning or anything that could help them. There are also the families that know and just don't care. They offer coupon classes here and budgeting classes and the extension office sometimes offers canning classes. The health dept even did a cooking school for the kids(mine went and loved it). There are more people ending up on welfare though in my county because of the loss of jobs.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

It just happens that the rug is being pulled from good families' feet, and the "professional" welfare and poor are the ones that make many make less charitable comments.

And many on HT, live low priced, and would be classified as "poor", but know how to be low keyed and self-reliant. Something many know, many need to learn, and more are most likely coming that need to learn.


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## Guest (May 11, 2011)

AngieM2 said:


> It just happens that the rug is being pulled from good families' feet,


Those are the people who are often overlooked, and their circumstances are not *always* due to the choices they make.

I have always known people who hit hard times through NO fault of their own.

It can be due to illness, job loss, and many other situations.

For example, look at the tornado outbreak in Alabama. How many of those victims were hard working, frugal people, and, whether or not they lost their house, they have lost their job due to their place of work being destroyed?

Some will say, well, then they should go where the jobs are. But for various reasons, that may be completely unfeasible for many of them.


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

Good points, Angie. I understand the resentment people have against the professional welfare users. It's been a stressful few days for me or I probably wouldn't have said anything.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Charleen said:


> We kind of touched on this topic recently in another thread about Food Pantries. Quite often, people just don't know HOW to can, so they wouldn't buy canning jars. BTW - Congrats to you on that great find! I'm jealous!


Even if they do know how to can, pressure canners are expensive, so they might not be able to afford a canner.


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

I lucked out and found a pressure canner at a flea market for 20 bucks. The previous owner had bought it on the day I was born! I knew it was meant to be then She had written down the purchase date on the manual.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

Lot's of judgements in this thread. Leaving those aside and putting an S&EP twist on the subject, most of what is discussed in the thread is lifestyle choices, not neccisarily "poor" or financially challenged persons.

Those that choose to live dependant on Goobermint help and modern food intake and are not prepared to do without those things if/when SHTF and will not survive.

Those like the person that inpired the revival of this old thread with her asking for advice and explaination of FS benifits are learning to live with less, be pro-active in finding affordable and sustainable food sources and preparing for times her family may even have less, will be better prepared than those that are well off financially now but living the easy store bought life if/when SHTF.

Who cares if poor people don't buy cannin' stuff? Preppers that can afford it do. :banana02:

Lot's of well off folks don't buy canning stuff either. Preppers do.


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## Guest (May 11, 2011)

time said:


> Those like the person that inpired the revival of this old thread with her asking for advice and explaination of FS benifits are learning to live with less, be pro-active in finding affordable and sustainable food sources and preparing for times her family may even have less, will be better prepared than those that are well off financially now but living the easy store bought life if/when SHTF.


Good point!

Some "poor" people are actually better off than many "rich" people.


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## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

I did a class on poverty in high school, and something that really stuck out to me was this: that there are two types of poverty. Generational poverty, where the family has been raised in poverty for two or more generations, and situational poverty, which is the rest of the people. Generational poverty seems much harder to get out of because the kids are raised KNOWiNG that as the norm, and while they can get out of it if they really worked hard, many don't even imagine a world without it, and continue on as normal. A lot of folks would really be going against the grain, and it takes a strong person to ignore everyone they know telling them "you're nuts, why do you want ot eat like a rabbit?" "She's just a weirdo" 'I don't know where YOU came from"....

All of these things are things I have heard from family and inlaws. If you didnt grow up with some of these things and your freinds are from similar background, you can feel hopeless, trying to pull yourself out. Its like breastfeeding...if no one in your circle supports you, the chances of you succeeding are almost nil.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

Another thing that bears remembering - I meant to put it into my previous post, but it slipped my mind.

Remember who the 'poor' are. Mostly they are less educated, coming from a background of subsistence ( I am by no means insulting subsistence)

Remember who the 'poor' aren't: There are several entire industries and branches of applied sciences - employing some of the best educated and most talented minds in the country and even the world whose sole purpose in existence is to convince people that they absolutely NEED things they don't really need at all, and that their existence is barely worth preserving if they don't have these things, that they are absolutely essential to their well-being. As if that weren't enough, there are even more industries, and even more of the brightest minds in the country dedicated to convincing the populace that they can have these things now, for several small fees and some interest - but that's the future and this is America, where everybody is continuously upwardly mobile.

This is important people; never forget it: There are sciences and industries continuously innovating and refining the techniques to get the populace to hock its future in exchange for some trinkets. Increasingly, these aren't even tangible trinkets, only perceived trinkets. Increasingly, these same bright minds are re-designing the system - that is, the legal system and the government - to stack the deck in their favor and to fund that system on the backs of the very same people they're in the business of fleecing.

One, at least for the time being, if they're lucky enough or smart enough to realize what's going on, can still opt out. This requires a special set of circumstances: not only do you have to realize what's going on, but you have to also be willing to risk the social alienation that is often the result of 'being different', AND you have to be willing to sacrifice short term comfort for a frequently ephemeral long term gain.

Things like home-canning are great, but you have to actually know there is such a thing. If you watched your mom or your grandma do it, that's great. What if your mom or grandma didn't do it? Mine didn't. I had a vague notion that there was such a thing, but I didn't actually learn about the details of canning - even that it was a practical endeavor until about 10 years ago.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

NoClue said:


> Another thing that bears remembering - I meant to put it into my previous post, but it slipped my mind.
> 
> Remember who the 'poor' are. Mostly they are less educated, coming from a background of subsistence ( I am by no means insulting subsistence)
> 
> ...


NoClue - I think you've got your smart on. This is something that is so true, our group and what gets you out, is swimming against the rapids of popular living style. You said it well.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I think one of the most important pieces of knowledge you can give someone is the FRAMEWORK of self-sufficiency.

I can go learn about how to use a canner, or get someone to help me. But I have to know such a thing EXISTS. 

Yesterday my oldest son and I stood in line at a snowcone stand in town (our reward for getting 4 rows planted in 97 degree weather). School had let out (otherwise we can't go into town due to the curfew) and there was a bunch of school kids his age. He listened to them talk for a bit and came away shocked and horrified. One of them had apparently said, "I don't read books."

When we got back into the truck my son asked, "If they don't read books, then how do they learn about anything? You can't expect other people or television to teach you everything."

If you can give someone a self-sufficiency "skeleton" that they can then attach the "meat" of knowledge to then you've done good work.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I gave up canning when it got to be too much for me: now I dehydrate instead and my jars are just clutter.

Never assume.......


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

Where would the poor get the food to can? 

If you live in public housing they won't allow you to tear up the ground and plant food. What if you lived in an apartment complex? Too many families to give them much ground, even if they wanted to can. I think a lot of folks on this thread are assuming that anyone can plant a garden anywhere and that's wrong. There's a lot of people who don't have access to ground or even a balcony to put some potted plants on. 

There's also the start up costs. Jars, lids, canners, etc aren't cheap. Look at how many are jealous over the OP's deal. If you're living in poverty that extra $5 a month could be a meal or two that your kids aren't getting. Food stamps don't cover 100% of your food budget. It's a darn good start, but doesn't cover it up. So if the choice is for jars to use in the fall or eating this month, eating now will win out.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

We have a throw away society that buys cheap junk ( most of it made in other countries, by people who have our jobs )...and we are encouraged to throw it away when it stops working and go out and buy more.

The concept of 'canning' and being thrifty has become a foreign concept. 99% of people in the US have no idea what canning even is or how it can benefit them.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Another thing is that they eat junk. Look at the size of our 'poor', they are obese. You cannot tell me that poor cannot buy veggies which are much cheaper than the packages of chemicals that pass for food these days ( if you can afford 6 happy meals a week than you can afford a few heads of cabbage). 

Throughout history and even still in most other countries, the poor are thin and the rich are fat. Through some perversion of nature we have managed to reverse that.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

The poor of this country are no differant than most of the rest of the people in this country. People have to have things fast and quick, and cheap processed food fills the bill. I think education is the key to anyone making the right choice on what to eat. I also think you can eat good food and not crap. Vegtables don`t cost that much a you have to just be a good shopper and know when stuff is on sale and a good bargin. We buy alot of organic food and if you know how to shop you can buy organic for around the same price if not less than regular food. You have to educate yourself on how to shop and keep your food. > Thanks, Marc


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

springvalley said:


> The poor of this country are no differant than most of the rest of the people in this country. People have to have things fast and quick, and cheap processed food fills the bill. I think education is the key to anyone making the right choice on what to eat. I also think you can eat good food and not crap. Vegtables don`t cost that much a you have to just be a good shopper and know when stuff is on sale and a good bargin. We buy alot of organic food and if you know how to shop you can buy organic for around the same price if not less than regular food. You have to educate yourself on how to shop and keep your food. > Thanks, Marc


Go to India, Asia, and South America. When you come back tell me how their poor are the same as ours. Their poor are thin and work for their food...our poor are grossly obese.

And why do poor people 'have to have things fast and quick'? Will they be late for a board meeting? No, they want it that way because it is easy. They have been conditioned to eat that way and they have forgotten how to boil their own water.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Wow. Love the stereotyping. Maybe people don't can because they don't know how. Or maybe, like me, they have an electric stove and the burners will be ruined by the weight of a full water bath canner. Or maybe, like me again, they don't like canning and would rather freeze or dehydrate stuff. 

People of all walks of life are unthrifty, and in my experience, it isn't the poor who are the worst about this.


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## house06 (Jan 4, 2007)

I also agree with the idea of self-sufficiency in whatever capacity you are able to do so. I know it is extremely judgmental on my part but I have pretty much stopped going to the public library in the afternoons because I am tired of seeing too many adults hanging out on the computers during normal work hours, playing video shooting games and updating their facebook accounts. 

RARELY do I see these same people checking out books, working on college classes or doing anything related to improving themselves. Yes, I do have the luxury of having computers/ internet access at home and YES I do engage in freetime activities such as browsing HT and so on. But it is particularly disheartening to see these same adults day after day, so many of them on the computuers that students dont have access to them, engaging in mindless, numbing activities...

Disheartening to see so many people that really do not want to attempt to do anything to improve their life situations or quality of life.


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

Springvalley said the "poor of this country are no different than most of the rest of the people IN THIS COUNTRY". He didn't say they were no different than the poor in other countries, so I'm not sure where the comparison from our poor to those in other countries came from using his quote.

However, I totally agree that our poor ARE different than in other countries. In other countries, their poor have to struggle for a living, for food on their tables, clothes on their backs, roof over their heads, etc. Most of our poor are on welfare and are given not only what they NEED but what they WANT, hence other comments about not paying bills but having cell phones and cars, etc. We as a country, have multi-generational families that have grown up on welfare and aid of many sorts. It's now the only thing they know and feel they are entitled to it. If we want a country that is not "grossly obese", then how about changing up things. Instead of giving them a card where they can buy 'almost' anything they want, how about a card that only allows them to buy fresh/frozen/canned vegies and fruit? How about removing sodas and sweets from vending machines in the schools? How about making 'free' meals more healthy as well? 

I grew up knowing that if you give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. If you teach a man to fish (and provide a source perhaps), he'll eat for a lifetime. We've been doing handouts for way too long, even to other countries. Yes, handouts are good and needed for emergencies, but for long term, to wean folks off the 'system', we need to switch over to teaching instead of handouts. Might also encourage those to learn to fend for themselves if they are gradually 'given' less and less. Provide only what is NECESSARY (food, water, clothing and shelter; no phones, etc.) and then start cutting even that back. Perhaps this might cut back on "entitlement".

Just so I don't get slammed here... I DO agree with helping others. I know there are poor in this country. I also agree they need help. I just disagree with the type of help we are giving them. I have hit bottom myself and am glad that there was help for me and I would readily help another... but I am not willing to support them for the rest of their lives nor the lives of their children....


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## Guest (May 11, 2011)

AverageJo said:


> Most of our poor are on welfare and are given not only what they NEED but what they WANT, hence other comments about not paying bills but having cell phones and cars, etc.


That I will strongly disagree with. Most of our poor are NOT on welfare. Most of our poor are actually working, but not making much due to low education, etc.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

michelleIL said:


> BTDT!!! Bought the soda, and I don't blame her for doing it either! Why should someone's crappy job deprive them of their human dignity. If the makeup and such make her feel good about herself to take her mind off the nagging poverty, why not? Judge and you shall be judged!


Probably need to move this to GC but if you are living off my dime (aka tax money) then I have every right in the world to judge how you live.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

chamoisee said:


> Wow. Love the stereotyping. Maybe people don't can because they don't know how. Or maybe, like me, they have an electric stove and the burners will be ruined by the weight of a full water bath canner. Or maybe, like me again, they don't like canning and would rather freeze or dehydrate stuff.
> 
> People of all walks of life are unthrifty, and in my experience, it isn't the poor who are the worst about this.


Preserving your extras by drying or freezing them is good too.
I have 2 food dryers, but I found it ran up the electric bill.
I need to make a solar food dryer I guess.
Your right I killed my electric stove with my canners. So you would have to add to the cost of the canner some sort of propane burner set up. Some people use one of those turkey fryers.

If you ever want to learn how to can, let me know.

I am finding around here there are no canning jars left to get in the thrift stores. They were all bought up when the economy went bad. So I am asuming some one besides me is canning around here any way.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

watcher said:


> Probably need to move this to GC but if you are living off my dime (aka tax money) then I have every right in the world to judge how you live.


Maybe the make up was so she could go job hunting. just saying.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I think this original question about canning and poverty should be expressed differently. For example, I don't can anymore but have a $15 vacuum pump and a $15 used dehydrator. But when I did can, it was with a water bath using an old stock pot. I did get my jars from the thrift store when I started. None of this was beyond anyone's reach who cared to look for ways to be more self-reliant. Until I did it, with a friend who had an old Ball canning book help, I had never seen anyone can anything. I just had a ton of blackberries and a love of blackberry jam.
There are a million excuses as to why what most people think is normal (ie getting and holding onto a job) doesn't work out. The car thing, the child care thing, the disabled thing, the "I've looked and no one is hiring" thing (pre-recession era.) But I have seen people who really have severe limitations due to health working as well as single mothers with child care challenges, disability, education,etc and overcoming them on a continuous basis. They did it in many ways - the only thing in common being determinaion.
On the other hand, I have seen people use the limitations of the rules for welfare to avoid getting work that some agency require. I have seen people move to rural locations so they were far enough away as to not be required to look for work or sell medications they got from medicaide that they didn't really need in order to buy liquor,cigarettes or drugs. There are a million schemes out there. This was observation or the person saying so- it was not a superficial judgement. 
So the divide in these posts seems to be between those who say not to judge anyone because you do not "know" what their situation is and those who are disgusted with the "lousy" choices people make "on their dime."
Since my grandfather created a very successful career while he paralyzed and in a wheelchair in an age where there was very little medical help possible, and one of my favorite co-workers was totally blind from birth (he got his career by volunteering at the business until it was clear to them he was reliable and capable,) and my best friend, who had a horrendous upbring, was the famous "single mom" of two children by different fathers and who never got child support, work her way all by herself into a real successful career, I tend to fall into the judgement class. Although I would never say so to any person who I didn't really know, because I am rarely sure on an individual basis, I am convinced that at least diligently attempting to be self-supporting is admirable and the opposite is disgusting.


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

ladycat said:


> That I will strongly disagree with. Most of our poor are NOT on welfare. Most of our poor are actually working, but not making much due to low education, etc.


You are right, Ladycat. I guess I got a bit stereotypical and assumed that the folks on welfare, etc. were 'poor', but I can just imagine that some of the folks on welfare are middle class as well. I will also concede that there are poor that are NOT on welfare, but will do the best they can on their own, like I did. I will also admit that a lot of our folks on welfare are also hard working, just in case someone wants to assume that my comments meant the those needing welfare were nothing more than couch potatoes or baby makers.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

One category of foodstamp recipient that I did not see mentioned is foster families. I have seen foster families or people who provide home care for disabled folks with EBT/SNAP cards. It is part of the funds/assistance that is allotted to the people that they care for. While some people may be glaring at someone in a grocery checkout for having soda on the conveyor belt and using an EBT card, the truth may be that they are hard working folks who "take in" others who are the recipients of assistance.

I learned this from two friends... One provides a home for two disabled folks and the other is registered as a therapeutic foster home provider.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

thanks TheMartianChick - I think I'd heard this a long time ago, and forgot it.

We can learn or remember something new every day.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

TheMartianChick said:


> One category of foodstamp recipient that I did not see mentioned is foster families. I have seen foster families or people who provide home care for disabled folks with EBT/SNAP cards. It is part of the funds/assistance that is allotted to the people that they care for. While some people may be glaring at someone in a grocery checkout for having soda on the conveyor belt and using an EBT card, the truth may be that they are hard working folks who "take in" others who are the recipients of assistance.
> 
> I learned this from two friends... One provides a home for two disabled folks and the other is registered as a therapeutic foster home provider.


So if I had foster kids it would be Ok for me to use their food stamps to buy myself soda and candy bars?


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## laughaha (Mar 4, 2008)

I actually don't (currently) know that many people on food stamps, the ones I do know I've tried to help with gardening (they have big yards), canning, etc. They had no problem eating the food I grew and canned, but were "too busy" doing absolutely nothing either help me or help themselves. Didn't matter that they could buy seeds on food stamps or that I would have given them seedlings. Didn't matter that I would have gladly shared my canning equipment (think canning parties- they are fun) and even my jars (just gave someone over a hundred and they ARE planting a garden). I've tried to teach couponing to these people but they are "too busy" and "don't have time" to clip coupons. All the while refusing my help I'm listening to her moan and complain that their food stamps were reduced because her husband got a raise at work AND my husband is helping his friend (her husband) put together a $400 swingset. I went grocery shopping with her a couple of times- it's sickening the amount of processed food and snacks she buys. She can cook and does so regularly but allows her children to basically live on cookies and yogurt. Her kids never drink water. She is from multi-generational government handouts and grew up screwing the system and refuses to learn how to live without the handouts.

Yes country poor is different from city poor in available resources in some ways. All the people I know on welfare have plenty of room for gardens but won't do it. Gardening does not have to be an expensive way to get food, if the person is willing (and able) to do a bit of work. 

I'm always reading about programs (in the cities) where gardeners donate produce to food pantries, and some food pantries are growing some of their own produce. There is a food pantry in every small town out in the country of PA. All you have to do is bring a drivers license/id and tell them how many kids you have and leave with at least one box full of food. Most of the people who use the food pantries are working poor, most of which may receive medical cards for their kids but not much other help. 

Most of my family considers us middleclass, Most of DH's family think we are weird and extremely poor cuz we just got our first flat-screen (our old tv just kicked the bucket and DH insisted). We value richness on things other than money. Some of them actually try to belittle us because we live frugally and don't have credit cards and don't try to keep up with the Jones'. They view canning/gardening/etc as something poor people do and once you "make it" you don't do those things anymore. The irony is that most of his family are either on food stamps or still live with their parents and look down on us.

Poor is relative to what someones values are- There are many people I consider poor who make (and spend) more money than us.


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## laughaha (Mar 4, 2008)

SquashNut said:


> So if I had foster kids it would be Ok for me to use their food stamps to buy myself soda and candy bars?


Nope, that's what CVS and coupons are for


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## Guest (May 11, 2011)

laughaha said:


> Nope, that's what CVS and coupons are for


Yes!!! :bouncy:


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

There's a lot of mention of donating produce and overages to food pantries and soup kitchens, which I thinks sounds great too.
But I'm just pointing out that the mentality and lack of skills spills over into those places too. 
I've worked at our soup kitchen and they primarily rely on a high content of premade items, artificial flavored stuff (like instant mac/cheese, and other items containing high sugar and artificial stuff).
I think I heard Joel Salatin say that he ended up with an overload of sweet potatoes once and like most of us, thought they shouldn't be wasted. They canned what they could, and tried to offer the rest to the soup kitchen, who turned them down. They said something like - we don't have time to prepare that kind of thing, and the folks don't like it anyway. :huh:
Don't get crazy y'all! I'm not putting down community food banks/kitchens. I'm just pointing out how sad it is that they have sometimes adopted the very habits that could have caused their visitors to be in the position they're in.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

SquashNut said:


> Maybe the make up was so she could go job hunting. just saying.


Maybe but my point still stands.


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## Pelenaka (Jul 27, 2007)

_Why dont the "poor" act thrifty?? _

I think the real question should be why doesn't everyone act thrifty ?

Rich or poor ?

I can't tell u how stupidly funny I find it that a local grocery store chain offers a complete selection of pre-cut veggies in convenient two cups packages for "cooking from scratch" shoppers. 
Or that I do take offensive that soda is allowed to be bought with FS.
The difference of course is that the latter is supported by my tax dollars.

As someone who was on the doll for just under a year while attending nursing school I can say that my daughter & I never ate so good as we did on food stamps. No not steaks just that we ate goodfood not the processed food that I could only afford on minimum wage. And at the end of the month I would still have stamps left over usually around $20 worth. I shopped sales and keept a pantry like your supose to do rich or poor.
I also had access to two major grocery stores in my neighborhood not a bodaga or corner deli or 7-11. My old hood is down to one store. I had a working stove/oven.


~~ pelenaka ~~


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

We have bought soda with foodstamps before when we had 7 sick kids at once. It was cheaper than pedialyte, we were in the van on the way to a job interview an hour away from home (we all went because we always combine trips to the store ect. since we are out of town) for dh at the time. The babies got pedialyte the big kids got sprite. Usually I make my own pedialyte for them at home but that time was different. We never usually buy pop at all but that time we did.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

I buy ginger ale on food stamps, too. There is nothing like a serious, *real* ginger ale to settle a nauseous stomach. Other than that, no soda.


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

partndn said:


> There's a lot of mention of donating produce and overages to food pantries and soup kitchens, which I thinks sounds great too.
> But I'm just pointing out that the mentality and lack of skills spills over into those places too.
> I've worked at our soup kitchen and they primarily rely on a high content of premade items, artificial flavored stuff (like instant mac/cheese, and other items containing high sugar and artificial stuff).
> I think I heard Joel Salatin say that he ended up with an overload of sweet potatoes once and like most of us, thought they shouldn't be wasted. They canned what they could, and tried to offer the rest to the soup kitchen, who turned them down. They said something like - we don't have time to prepare that kind of thing, and the folks don't like it anyway. :huh:
> Don't get crazy y'all! I'm not putting down community food banks/kitchens. I'm just pointing out how sad it is that they have sometimes adopted the very habits that could have caused their visitors to be in the position they're in.


I've had similar experiences.

Up until about 5 or 6 years ago, there were grocery stores that knew me and my mother were gathering food donations for distributing out, and they would give us huge amounts of food that was overstocked, nearing expiration, etc (then all those stores either closed or sold to new owners, and the ones left wont donate to us, they throw it into locked dumpsters).

So anyhoo, we would get hundreds of pounds of fresh produce. Most of it ended up as chicken food.

The food bank wouldn't take it because they couldn't find people who wanted it.

The soup kitchen wouldn't take it, because it required peeling and cutting (well, they WOULD take prepackaged salad, apples, oranges, and bananas, but that was all).

We would let the individual families pick through it and get what they wanted.

We (me and my mother), would freeze and can some of it, but you can only freeze and can just so much.

I threw most of it in the chicken yard.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I think we will find as things get worse, people will adapt and be less picky.
Maybe they will get more volunteers to help peal the veggies for the soup kitchens.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

ne prairiemama said:


> We have bought soda with foodstamps before when we had 7 sick kids at once. It was cheaper than pedialyte, we were in the van on the way to a job interview an hour away from home (we all went because we always combine trips to the store ect. since we are out of town) for dh at the time. The babies got pedialyte the big kids got sprite. Usually I make my own pedialyte for them at home but that time was different. We never usually buy pop at all but that time we did.


Please know that I am not picking on you or trying to be mean. I have to ask though, as I've seen you mention pedialyte on a few occasions now... what in the world do your kids need pedialyte so much for? I don't have seven, but I do have two and in the entire decade of their existence not once have they required pedialyte... and if they did I don't know that Sprite would ever cross my mind as an alternative??? Why not just give them water? It's better for the ailing body than Sprite, I can tell you that for sure and I'd wager better than Pedialyte, too -- homemade or otherwise. That's stuff's mostly marketing gimmick. Water, chicken noodle soup and rest goes a long way.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

SquashNut said:


> I think we will find as things get worse, people will adapt and be less picky.


I have wondered about this. I don't know. I think it would take a LOT for people to adapt, as in starvation. I know people who in dieting would rather eat substantially less food, battling hunger the whole way, than pick up a piece of fresh fruit because they "don't like it". People are set in their ways...


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## beaglebiz (Aug 5, 2008)

olivehill said:


> Please know that I am not picking on you or trying to be mean. I have to ask though, as I've seen you mention pedialyte on a few occasions now... what in the world do your kids need pedialyte so much for? I don't have seven, but I do have two and in the entire decade of their existence not once have they required pedialyte... and if they did I don't know that Sprite would ever cross my mind as an alternative??? Why not just give them water? It's better for the ailing body than Sprite, I can tell you that for sure and I'd wager better than Pedialyte, too -- homemade or otherwise. That's stuff's mostly marketing gimmick. Water, chicken noodle soup and rest goes a long way.


Just my opinion, but I would never knowingly give my children HFCS. Sugar in soda is bad enough, but the HFCS is much worse.
Sugar, or HFCS will dehydrate you. Id stick with the water myself. 
and Olivehill, you are so right about the chicken noodle soup. Its easy to digest, the chicken soup itself helps settle a bad stomach, and breaks up mucus


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

We do chicken noodle soup but when kids get dehydrated from throwing up water is actually not good for their tummies. It's best if you can keep a proper electrolyte balance. When a child has diarrea or has been vomitting they lose salt very quickly because their body can't reabsorb it through the intestine like it usually does. To make the body absorb the salt you need sugars, Without sugar intestinal sodium won't be absorbed. each time the salt and sugar transport, lots of water molecules move into the cell/s and causes rehydration. If the body's balance gets too far off a child can get dehydrated or die. Lots of kids die simply from diarrea eespecially in other countries. my kids have a tummy bug and fevers so thats probably why i've got pedialyte n the brain lol 

eta: I didn't mean to sound rude about the water. please forgive me if I hurt any feelings. I didn't mean it in a bad way!!


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

You are NEVER rude sweetie.


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

Sarah-if you have some canned peaches, try giving them some of the juice from it-if it's the heav syrup kind. When DS11 gets the stomach flu...he really gets it. Told me once to call the ambulance because he thought he was going to throw up his heart(he's a minor drama queen when puking lol). Dr told me to give him the heavy syrup by the tablespoon, that it would settle on the stomach better. DS11 always ended up getting IV fluids when he had the stomach flu. Hope your kids get better and I hope you avoid getting it!


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

SquashNut said:


> So if I had foster kids it would be Ok for me to use their food stamps to buy myself soda and candy bars?


Actually, it might be! In my friend's case, she buys all of the groceries for the household at one time. She has a total of 5 people living in her home. One client/tenant might have $50 worth of foodstamps allotted to them. My friend will purchase almost $200 worth of supplies at the grocery store and then the $50 worth of foodstamps is deducted from the total. There may be a candybar or a soda on the conveyer along with a big bag of chips. There is nothing wrong with her doing this since she is paying almost $150 of her own cold hard cash. One of her client/tenants is a diabetic. She doesn't give him soda, chips or a candy bars. The snack foods are generally consumed by her husband and granddaughter. There is no way of differentiating her purchases from those for her clients. 

She also has to prepare meals for everyone in the household, so there is always overlap in the foodstuffs. She doesn't buy one small bag of rice for one client and another for her own family. She buys one big bag and prepares the meals from it.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Activated charcoal really helps with diarrhea. Even if they barf part of it back up, keep giving it to them.

A child that is getting dehydrated can be placed in a tub of warm water and kept there as long as needed. Children will absorb a lot of water thru their skin.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Cyngbaeld said:


> Activated charcoal really helps with diarrhea. Even if they barf part of it back up, keep giving it to them.
> 
> A child that is getting dehydrated can be placed in a tub of warm water and kept there as long as needed. Children will absorb a lot of water thru their skin.


An RN, here. Unless they get electrolytes inside them, this will not help. Their bodies will not keep the fluid.

Electrolytes include both salt and sugars: the pediolyte has a more helpfull balance of minerals and potassium and such, but even they are mostly salt and sugar. 

In a pinch have them suck on a hard candy, or the broth of chicken noodle soup, to go with with any fluids you can get down them.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

ne prairiemama said:


> We do chicken noodle soup but when kids get dehydrated from throwing up water is actually not good for their tummies. It's best if you can keep a proper electrolyte balance. When a child has diarrea or has been vomitting they lose salt very quickly because their body can't reabsorb it through the intestine like it usually does. To make the body absorb the salt you need sugars, Without sugar intestinal sodium won't be absorbed. each time the salt and sugar transport, lots of water molecules move into the cell/s and causes rehydration. If the body's balance gets too far off a child can get dehydrated or die. Lots of kids die simply from diarrea eespecially in other countries. my kids have a tummy bug and fevers so thats probably why i've got pedialyte n the brain lol
> 
> eta: I didn't mean to sound rude about the water. please forgive me if I hurt any feelings. I didn't mean it in a bad way!!


Good answer. :clap:

I grew up before pedialyte. Sprite kept us alive back then. Ummmm, Doctor recomended even.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Terri, I'm an RN too, worked pediatrics and labor and delivery for many yrs. Yes, they need electrolytes, but a dehydrated kid can die on you real fast. If it is an emergency and you can't get to the er, plop the kid in the tub of water and keep trying to get electrolytes down by mouth.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

TheMartianChick said:


> Actually, it might be! In my friend's case, she buys all of the groceries for the household at one time. She has a total of 5 people living in her home. One client/tenant might have $50 worth of foodstamps allotted to them. My friend will purchase almost $200 worth of supplies at the grocery store and then the $50 worth of foodstamps is deducted from the total. There may be a candybar or a soda on the conveyer along with a big bag of chips. There is nothing wrong with her doing this since she is paying almost $150 of her own cold hard cash. One of her client/tenants is a diabetic. She doesn't give him soda, chips or a candy bars. The snack foods are generally consumed by her husband and granddaughter. There is no way of differentiating her purchases from those for her clients.
> 
> She also has to prepare meals for everyone in the household, so there is always overlap in the foodstuffs. She doesn't buy one small bag of rice for one client and another for her own family. She buys one big bag and prepares the meals from it.


Sorry but, this is a bit of a twist, it is not right for her to buy soda and candy with some one elses food stamps if she consumes them herself.


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

I think I'd do the client's food card stuff first and then my purchases second in that situation to make sure they got as much foodstuffs as they were supposed to. I think technically it would be illegal the other way? Not trying to pick on you or her but I think she could get in trouble for that if HHS knew.


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

forgot to ask Cyn, where do you get the activated charcoal? I knew some about it but can't find it here.

time thats what I was given as a sick kid too lol.


Thanks Terri! I forgot about the potassium thats important too!


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

we had a calf that was sick once and the vet told us to make bullion cubes for it. Not sure what was in the cubes, but now I make them for me when I am sick.


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## Guest (May 13, 2011)

SquashNut said:


> we had a calf that was sick once and the vet told us to make bullion cubes for it. Not sure what was in the cubes, but now I make them for me when I am sick.


Bullion cubes are basically just flavored salt. :shrug:


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

SquashNut said:


> So if I had foster kids it would be Ok for me to use their food stamps to buy myself soda and candy bars?


If the card is for household use, and your child had everything he or she needed, sure.

Where I live, foster children also automatically receive Medicaid no matter what the foster parents' income.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

time said:


> Good answer. :clap:
> 
> I grew up before pedialyte. Sprite kept us alive back then. Ummmm, Doctor recomended even.


Thalidomide was Doctor recommended, too.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

thesedays said:


> If the card is for household use, and your child had everything he or she needed, sure.
> 
> Where I live, foster children also automatically receive Medicaid no matter what the foster parents' income.


No the card is the foster childs.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

ladycat said:


> Bullion cubes are basically just flavored salt. :shrug:


I don't get it either. But I feel better when I use it.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

SquashNut said:


> Sorry but, this is a bit of a twist, it is not right for her to buy soda and candy with some one elses food stamps if she consumes them herself.


She's not using the foodstamps to buy the candy & soda... It is all rung up at the same time... It just happens to be in the same transactions. Believe me, there is no chance that she is only spending $50 per month on wholesome food for each client. As it is, she tends to treat her client/tenants as though they are family members. If she tried to feed them 100% on $50 worth of food stamps, she'd be sent to jail for neglecting them.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

ne prairiemama said:


> I think I'd do the client's food card stuff first and then my purchases second in that situation to make sure they got as much foodstuffs as they were supposed to. I think technically it would be illegal the other way? Not trying to pick on you or her but I think she could get in trouble for that if HHS knew.


Actually, she gets a review every few months and always passes with flying colors. I've never been at her house when they occured but I know that a case worker visits and goes over receipts and books (of some kind) with her. Her client/tenants have lived with her for more than ten years.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

sapphyre said:


> To me it is very easy to understand why poor people often live in messy homes. Quite simply, a messy home is a sign of stress and depression.


Then how do we account for the millions of impoverished people living with dirt floors in 3rd world countries that work from sun up to sun down on their properties keeping them spotless, efficient and tidy? Why were homes and farms kept manicured during the great depression?

So many people in this country are lazy and full of excuses. A drive down most streets will find homes with trash and consumer goods thrown all over unkept lawns full of weeds. In my area, the people who work the hardest, longest hours are the ones you see out working in their yards till sundown after putting in a 10 hour day at work. A drive through any low income neighborhood and you will see scores of people who do not work sitting out on their porch all day surrounded by filth. I can never understand how people that live day after day after day sitting at home for hours cannot bend over at least once day to pick up a piece of trash or pull a single 3 foot high weed out of their tiny 10' by 12' yard in town.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Haven said:


> Then how do we account for the millions of impoverished people living with dirt floors in 3rd world countries that work from sun up to sun down on their properties keeping them spotless, efficient and tidy? Why were homes and farms kept manicured during the great depression?
> 
> So many people in this country are lazy and full of excuses. A drive down most streets will find homes with trash and consumer goods thrown all over unkept lawns full of weeds. In my area, the people who work the hardest, longest hours are the ones you see out working in their yards till sundown after putting in a 10 hour day at work. A drive through any low income neighborhood and you will see scores of people who do not work sitting out on their porch all day surrounded by filth. I can never understand how people that live day after day after day sitting at home for hours cannot bend over at least once day to pick up a piece of trash or pull a single 3 foot high weed out of their tiny 10' by 12' yard in town.


Maybe because they're renters to some slumlord or maybe they're just squatters?


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

Maybe it's partially because the stigma that comes with being poor here? I dunno, having a big family/being less financially well off makes me want to have a cleaner house simply because I know people are looking at it and judging us. (not that we have alot of company lol) Also if the poor person is a single Mom working a couple jobs to support her dc she might be "shot in the weeds" when she gets home? I dunno I can't judge someone else because I know people only come to visit when the dishes aren't yet done LOL!


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

bowdonkey said:


> Maybe because they're renters to some slumlord or maybe they're just squatters?


I am a landlord and I have never driven to my rentals and tossed my own garbage and personal belongings all over a tenants home


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

There are rules, recipes, and guidelines, for becoming poor. Out of 10, a person might get away with one or two 'negatives' and escape, and lead a normal prosperous life. Three or four, and they'll always be 'slung back' anytime they get ahead a little (like a poverty rubber band). More than five? Very difficult to escape. More than 6.... welcome to povertyville. More than 8, welcome to Culvert Town or Overpass City, or The Cardboard Box Hotel.


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## laughaha (Mar 4, 2008)

Haven said:


> Then how do we account for the millions of impoverished people living with dirt floors in 3rd world countries that work from sun up to sun down on their properties keeping them spotless, efficient and tidy? Why were homes and farms kept manicured during the great depression?
> 
> So many people in this country are lazy and full of excuses. A drive down most streets will find homes with trash and consumer goods thrown all over unkept lawns full of weeds. In my area, the people who work the hardest, longest hours are the ones you see out working in their yards till sundown after putting in a 10 hour day at work. A drive through any low income neighborhood and you will see scores of people who do not work sitting out on their porch all day surrounded by filth. I can never understand how people that live day after day after day sitting at home for hours cannot bend over at least once day to pick up a piece of trash or pull a single 3 foot high weed out of their tiny 10' by 12' yard in town.


:clap:
The sad part is that if they did it (little by little) it would get done and they would feel so much better about themselves and it would teach them a valuable lesson- every small step matters.


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## Forest (Oct 14, 2010)

ne prairiemama said:


> We do chicken noodle soup but when kids get dehydrated from throwing up water is actually not good for their tummies. It's best if you can keep a proper electrolyte balance. When a child has diarrea or has been vomitting they lose salt very quickly because their body can't reabsorb it through the intestine like it usually does. To make the body absorb the salt you need sugars, Without sugar intestinal sodium won't be absorbed. each time the salt and sugar transport, lots of water molecules move into the cell/s and causes rehydration. If the body's balance gets too far off a child can get dehydrated or die. Lots of kids die simply from diarrea eespecially in other countries. my kids have a tummy bug and fevers so thats probably why i've got pedialyte n the brain lol
> 
> eta: I didn't mean to sound rude about the water. please forgive me if I hurt any feelings. I didn't mean it in a bad way!!


NE Pr, you had it absolutely right. The normal process of salt uptake in the small intestines is energy dependent and does not work effectively in cases of acute diarrhea. There is a second transport mechanism, that involves both salt AND sugar, i.e. it only works when there is salt AND sugar available, that still works in diarrhea. This is why the WHO oral rehydration solution (used in children in outbreaks of non-cholera diarrhea) contains both salt and sugar. This is why Gatorade is both salty and sweet, and why the old school docs recommended soda and salty things.

The good news is you can make this yourself for cents, and you don't have to buy the expensive stuff. Here's a recipe that I just googled (or google WHO oral rehydration salts (ORS):

Preparing 1 (one) Litre solution using Salt, Sugar and Water at Home

Mix an oral rehydration solution using one of the following recipes; depending on ingredients and container availability:

Ingredients:

* Half (1/2) teaspoon of Salt

* Six (6) teaspoons of Sugar

* One Litre of clean drinking or boiled water and then cooled - 5 cupfuls (each cup about 200 ml.)

Preparation Method:

Stir the mixture till the salt and sugar dissolve.


(With infants, also continue nursing at the same time.)


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

How dumb would it be to make some up & can it to have on hand?


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## Guest (May 16, 2011)

Wendy said:


> How dumb would it be to make some up & can it to have on hand?


Seems to me like that should work just fine.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

ladycat said:


> Seems to me like that should work just fine.


I use a different recipe (below) and I don't keep any made up. Everything you need but one item, the KCl, is in my kitchen. I keep the KCl in a first aid kit with the recipe taped to it.

Table Salt (NaCl) 1/2 tsp.
Salt Substitute (KCl) 1/2 tsp.
Baking Soda 1/2 tsp.
Table Sugar 2 tablespoons
Tap Water 1 Liter (= 1 Qt. 2 tablespoons)

Note, you can buy "lite salt" which is half NaCl and half KCL which means you could just use one spoon full if that.


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