# Why would I get Large black pigs???



## Mountain Mick (Sep 10, 2005)

Why would I get Large black pigs??? Please.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

30 years ago, prior to the Heritage breed hoopla, a friend had purchased a few Large Blacks and was crossing them with a top quality Landrace boar. The Large Blacks are known for their large litters, often extra working teats, calm disposition. But they have far too much lard to be popular as a production breed.

Back then, I owned a pair of Large Blacks and a Landrace boar. Couldn&#8217;t get them bred. Butchered the boar and took the gilts to a local pig farmer. He couldn&#8217;t get them bred either.

Fast forward to today. Through some excellent salesmanship, a renewed interest in older, somewhat obscure breeds, Large Blacks are staging a comeback. Just as prices once shot up for Ostriches, Emus, Scottish Hilanders and Angora Goats, the Large Black market has been hot. People are getting $500 for a 50 pound female. Rather than compete with commercial operations, one can raise these rare pigs and cash in on huge profits&#8230;. for awhile.

Seems every breedable Large Black is in production, without regard to breed standards. Just breed them and rake in the money. It has become uncommon for litter size to exceed 10. Breeding problems exist, perhaps due to over-feeding, perhaps to insufficient culling.

I believe we are close to the collapse of the hot Large Black market. 

These hogs can forage, but most will admit forage alone is seldom enough, unless they get loose in your garden. LOL

Since most every Large Black is getting bred, I would shun Large Blacks from small litters and you might want to bring a hog expert along to judge unsoundness and marginal quality.

You should buy Large Blacks if you want some quiet, friendly pastured pigs. If you want to put something in your freezer, you can do better, much better.

If I could get a Large Black to raise 13 of 14 Landrace/ Large Black piglets, I&#8217;d be a lot more positive. But I can&#8217;t and I don&#8217;t think you can either.


----------



## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Mmm, I think I rather echo Haypoint's view on this - and that is from the other side of the world. NZ's Large Black stock almost died out so that they became a rare breed. I think, but don't quote me, there was one sow and two boars or two sows and one boar left and the whole breeding stock stems from these. With the advent of smallfarmers and a swing back to keeping rare breeds going, whatever progeny is available fetches big money - and it's money that I'm not prepared to pay for a pig that is no better in terms of breeding or meat than many other varieties.

The States has a much wider variety of available pig breeds than we do and I personally think you could do much better than opt for Lge Blacks.

Cheers,
Ronnie


----------



## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Ibid. We are crossing large black genetics with our herd for the large litter size, wintering ability, many litters per year, good temperament and maintenance of condition even on pasture with so many piglets born.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa


----------



## DWH Farm (Sep 1, 2010)

I dont post here regularly but do use the site often and had to jump in on this one. I have LBH's and absolutely LOVE them. I got them because I wanted to get a breed that would do well in a pastured setting, and after alot of research decided on LB's. This was several years ago, at that time there were only about 200 in the US and they had not become as popular as they are today. I have been very happy with ours, especially since I am raising them alongside other breeds and am able to directly compare. The LBH's have wonderful dispositions, stay in good condition on VERY little supplemental feed, and are great mothers. I would suggest if you want to get into it to sell 400 dollar pigs then think on it some more (as others have pointed out) and do your research. If you are getting into them because you want the best type of pig for a homestead/pasture based system that is easy to handle then you cant go wrong with them. We have also been very impressed with the crosses from our LB boar.Of course that is MY opinion and everyone has one :lookout: Just do your research and look at the parents, ask questions, etc.. But you should do that on anything that you buy.


----------



## Mountain Mick (Sep 10, 2005)

Hi Guys,

Thank you for your replies. 

I Australia the bubble pop a little while ago. as LB's were as high is $1500 ea for piglets, now we can buy them from $130 to 275 ea, with papers. I have love Lb's for over third years but just not able to get them and now we are after them because we want the best type of pig for a homestead/pasture based system, that is easy to handle then and make great old style ham/bacon, with fat and flavour. like Prosciutto, Gammon, pancetta, Guanciale & coppa , again thank you all for your reply. Mick:viking: 



Nivensfamily said:


> I dont post here regularly but do use the site often and had to jump in on this one. I have LBH's and absolutely LOVE them. I got them because I wanted to get a breed that would do well in a pastured setting, and after alot of research decided on LB's. This was several years ago, at that time there were only about 200 in the US and they had not become as popular as they are today. I have been very happy with ours, especially since I am raising them alongside other breeds and am able to directly compare. The LBH's have wonderful dispositions, stay in good condition on VERY little supplemental feed, and are great mothers. I would suggest if you want to get into it to sell 400 dollar pigs then think on it some more (as others have pointed out) and do your research. If you are getting into them because you want the best type of pig for a homestead/pasture based system that is easy to handle then you cant go wrong with them. We have also been very impressed with the crosses from our LB boar.Of course that is MY opinion and everyone has one :lookout: Just do your research and look at the parents, ask questions, etc.. But you should do that on anything that you buy.


----------



## Rob30 (Nov 2, 2004)

We have used a few breeds for sows. Our large blacks were the most tame, best mothers, and the best on pasture. We only ate two lrg black cross hogs. But they were great. Beefier texture.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

If you need one because they are fun to watch, easy to handle, good mothers, good on pasture and small litters aren't a problem, consider Finn sheep. Plus you'd get something of value from them, wool. I've never tried smpked leg of lamb, but I'll bet it would be tasty.


----------



## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

Why not try a smaller version of heritage hog, if you must raise one, like a Tamworth or Old Spot, which will give you the same forage ability(maybe better), docile attitude and great mothering abilities.
I noticed that my 2 Old Spot gilts were much friendlier than my York/Hamp crosses right away, and also had larger ham regions, thicker shanks....
Will find out what kind of mothers they are this spring.

Greg Zeigler
Alger, Ohio


----------



## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

A mistake people often make is to compare heritage pigs to more modern breeds. It's apples and oranges. You choose a particular breed of animal for a particular need. 

Large Black hogs retain their ancestor's traits to do well outdoors on pasture and in the woods. They have very long bodies with lots of pork belly. They have marbled meat. They are very docile, very good mothers, and, despite their name, don't grow into huge monster hogs. They can easily handle heat and cold. Their pork to lard ratio is excellent.

If that is what you want from a hog then you can't find anything better.

If instead you want lots of lard, large hams and roasts, light and lean pork, hogs that do well under intensive conditions or in small pens and barns, hogs that stay small or grow huge, have 14 piglets per litter, then Large Blacks are not the ones for you.

Despite haypoint's claim to the contrary the market for Large Blacks is growing quickly and will expand by several times over the next five or six years. Prices for weaned piglets are increasing due, in part, to the unmet demand for Large Black pork. Large Black pork is basically unavailable to the market except for a few niche farmers markets. It is receiving a lot of interest because of the incredible quality but, due to the very low numbers of hogs, there are not enough hogs to provide a reliable source for pork. Within a couple of years there will be enough and you will start seeing LB pork on menus. Almost all of the LB breeders know that the pork market is where we are headed and we are selectively breeding to prepare for that.

The breeders who got into LBs looking for a quick buck usually disappear within a couple of years, after losing their butts, mostly because they don't know much about hogs. Those who expect them to look, grow and breed like modern breeds also stop quickly and bad mouth the breed; mostly because they don't know much about heritage breeds. But those who understand the unique traits and value the breed brings, and how to develop a market that appreciates that, are doing very well and investing for the long term.


----------



## mrpink (Jun 29, 2008)

this post is off topic in a large way but on topic in a small way. I have been thinking how to make my small 5 acres productive and pigs come to mind. I like the old ways of doing things. I like the qualities of keeping the animals on pasture or range. I like simple and good. I like dry aged beef and good pork flavor most of what you get in the store is watered down, injected,pumped and pre-flavored and cro-vac packed. I believe there is value in small scale niche marketing of farm products. I believe this to the extent that I am seriously looking into starting a small business on my little 5 acres. when I read the responses to this post I wished to pm one responder with a question. I found that option unavailable and though ht had changed things then I found it quite easy to pm all other responders with a simple click on there name. makes me wonder because this party that I couldn't pm had freely posted there Phone number in another post

greg


----------



## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Hi Greg. I turned off the pm thing because I never check it. Made folks angry that I had not responded so I just turned it off. The best way to contact me is via email at [email protected].

Brian


----------



## mrpink (Jun 29, 2008)

just my 2 cents here. every contact is a potential business contact. with all the spam of email I like the chat and instant message feature's of different site's


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

HeritagePigs said:


> A mistake people often make is to compare heritage pigs to more modern breeds. It's apples and oranges. You choose a particular breed of animal for a particular need.
> 
> Large Black hogs retain their ancestor's traits to do well outdoors on pasture and in the woods. They have very long bodies with lots of pork belly. They have marbled meat. They are very docile, very good mothers, and, despite their name, don't grow into huge monster hogs. They can easily handle heat and cold. Their pork to lard ratio is excellent.
> 
> ...


Brian has done an excellent job explaining his view, his opinion. It is clear and complete. I appreciate his display of a differing viewpoint.

But, I disagree with just about everything he has stated. :duel:

He believes there is a growing demand for LB pork. I believe that very little LB pork can get to market while the breeders market is pushing, and getting, $500 for a feeder pig. Since these new âbreedersâ are small farms, like most of us here, there is even a good demand for boars. Tasty pork might appear as a reason to grow them, it is the $500 price that is attracting all the attention. I think that the only pork to make it to the meat market would be those LB that they couldnât get bred, sold by disgruntled former breeders.

Who really knows when the market for $500 feeders will exceed demand? Like a sinking ship, these things go down faster than expected. We saw it in Emus, and a few other special animals. The term âbottom dropped outâ isnât a gradual weakening of the market.

The reason the LB fell out of favor and almost became a lost breed was because they are a lard type hog and there isnât much of a market for hog fat anymore. They were well known for their large litters. Their extra teats and their calm nature made them very productive with low piglet mortality. 

I do agree that to capitalize on Heritage breeds, youâll need to know âhow to develop a market that appreciates thatâ. It is mostly salesmanship that drives this LB market.

Bison meat is lean and lower in cholesterol than a Hereford. But put a Hereford out on the prairie and youâll see a comparable level of leanness. To a good degree, itâs the same with hogs. All hogs will graze, just they arenât as good at as the LB. Put a LB in a pen and throw the corn and soy to him and youâll have pork similar to commercial varieties. Vice versa. It isnât apples to oranges, more like Honeygold to PaulaRed or composted to fertilized.

In the Registered Large Black Association web site, there is talk of selective breeding, but most are openly committed to breeding everything they have, even breeding sows that have repeated litters of 7 or less. That waters down the very reason to resurrect this ancient breed.


----------



## Mountain Mick (Sep 10, 2005)

As Old Spots & Tamworth are very rare in Australia. very rare. MM



PotBellyPigs said:


> Why not try a smaller version of heritage hog, if you must raise one, like a Tamworth or Old Spot, which will give you the same forage ability(maybe better), docile attitude and great mothering abilities.
> I noticed that my 2 Old Spot gilts were much friendlier than my York/Hamp crosses right away, and also had larger ham regions, thicker shanks....
> Will find out what kind of mothers they are this spring.
> 
> ...


----------



## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

Raising heritage breed hogs, especially the ones with low numbers of individuals, brings with it more than a business proposition, more than a cost per pound of meat or return on investment. To be happy you must reset your expectations.

I often speak with folks that have raised modern crosses and are frustrated by the low profits, if any, and are looking at heritage breeds as a way to renew their hog businesses based on the selling price of heritage hogs. I have to caution them that they will probably be disappointed as their metrics for success, their baseline for what makes a good hog, is skewed by their experience with modern cross hogs. They consider things like average number of piglets per litter, weaning weight, time to butcher weight, ratio of meat to bone, and many heritage hogs just can't compete. This makes a lot of sense; of course modern crosses are better because the breeders who created them were pretty smart folks. They started with heritage breeds and selectively crossed those that had larger litters, larger muscles, etc. It would be unrealistic to take a foundation hog and expect it to be as good a piglet or pork producer as the improved breeds.

However, as "better" hogs were created, they lost some of the traits their ancestors had. This also makes sense because modern breeders raise their hogs in environments where things like cold and heat tolerance and pasturing ability are not necessary. To maximize the survival of piglets you provide them the least risky environment possible. You artificially inseminate the sows to prevent mating injuries and maximize insemination success. You raise the sows in an environment that is designed to improve fetus retention. When farrowing time comes you restrain the sow so that she cannot possibly injure the piglets and you keep her restrained so that the piglets can suckle easily, balancing the numbers of piglets between sows so that teat competition is eliminated. You wean the piglets early on a specialized feed so that you can breed back the sows at the earliest possible opportunity. Then you feed the piglets with a special diet to encourage rapid growth, including antibiotics that enhance feed efficiency. All of this makes sense if the metrics you use are as many piglets as possible raised to butcher weight as soon as possible.

There is nothing wrong with this from a business perspective, except perhaps the result of a saturated pork market with continued pressure from customer expectations of consistent quality pork at a low price.

However, replace these specialized cross hogs with heritage breeds and this model won't work. Your litter numbers will be low and growth rates will be slower. You will only be able to produce a limited amount of pork because the market that will pay the price to make this profitable will be very small. And the cuts that will come from your hogs will not look like the traditional cuts that most people are accustomed to.

This also is true on a smaller scale. Hog farmers that raise a few hundred hogs per year will see the same issues; low litter numbers, low piglet weight and growth rates, lower feed efficiency and non-traditional cuts. Those that have learned their craft from modern crosses will be very disappointed.

In order to be happy with heritage breeds, one has to reset their expectations and understand the unique value that comes from the old breeds. Heritage breeds are best for those who are living the "homestead" life, making the change to living on a small farm in a simple, natural manner. This holistic view of farming is often more beneficial to the soul than the wallet. It is a decision to appreciate the intangible value of traditional farm life; doing things the old way and appreciating the benefits of providing food from your own effort. Usually hogs are only a part of this plan; a square to be filled. People take a look at their farms and eating habits and decide to try to make the farm provide as much of their family's dietary needs as possible. They eat vegetables so a garden is a natural; they eat chicken, beef and pork so poultry, cattle and hogs are needed. They may want to do some old crafts, such as cheese, wool and honey so their cow (or goat) needs to provide milk; they need sheep to provide wool and bees to make honey. Once they have defined their needs they then start the process of choosing the breeds that will work for them.

It is easy, and inexpensive, to choose commonly available breeds and vegetable varieties, and many folks start with that. But since the choice to homestead is as much about emotional fulfillment as anything else, some folks decide to choose breeds that better fit this concept; going "old school" by choosing heritage livestock and heirloom vegetables. A Holstein cow will provide beef and milk, and a Hampshire hog will provide lots of pork, but a Canadienne cow or Large Black hog brings the real satisfaction of helping to resurrect a rare breed. Rare breeds have connected groups of like minded people that brings the enjoyment of belonging to a community. I've made lots of friends, around the world, that I would never have met had I not chosen to raise heritage breeds. 

Heritage breeds also have meat that looks and tastes different than the stuff that you find in the grocery store. The first time you see the dark colored pork from a Large Black you might think it was beef. But cook Large Black pork low and slow and you will be ruined; grocery store pork will just never satisfy again.

Some heritage breeds, especially the rare ones, can also help pay for the homestead life, and although that should not be the primary consideration, it is nice to be able to make a little more off the hogs so that I can have other livestock that don't provide much return. My sweetie and I call it our "traveling money"; we get to go see our kids every once in a while. 

It's also nice that the livestock we have chosen can utilize the food that grows naturally on our farm. Sustainability is all about lowering the need for outside inputs; making your farm "sustainable". We started with Duroc and Chester Whites but left those breeds behind because they required too much supplemental feed. Our Large Blacks need less than half of the supplemental feed and our GOS even less.

I think that the current price for Large Black and other heritage pigs will endure for many years as more people are choosing the homestead life due to the economy. Even when companies start hiring again the lessons will be remembered; you've got to have more to your life than a title and a paycheck. Life in a cubicle is just not fulfilling; even a part time farm will make life more complete. And if you choose livestock that don't require constant attention...

With any hog, the true future is not in the breeding market but in the pork market. There will always be farmers who provide high quality breeding stock but the most successful will be those that can make the transition to pork. Large Black crosses will be the product; hogs that retain the taste and quality of LBs while providing better proportioned cuts. The Large Black has lots of pork belly and ribs but relatively small hams and roasts; cross it with a Tamworth, Duroc or Hamp and you get the best of both. We have several LB X Hamp litters each year and they all sell out quickly to people who want traditional cuts with old world flavor.

My point in this very long post was to try to explain why you simply can't compare heritage breeds with modern crosses (and perhaps to answer the OP's question). Different strokes for different folks; the markets are different. When choosing what hog you want to raise you need to match the breed to your expectations. If you like the natural life, the simple pleasure of raising livestock in the manner they were raised in the 1800s, then choose livestock that retain the ability to do well in that environment.


----------



## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

Haypoint,

I hesitate to put words in your mouth, but I'd like to try to express, what I think your real concerns are:

1.You don't believe either that pastured pork is noticeably better than CAFO pork (given the same breed), or that heritage breed pork is perceptibly better than production cross pork raised under the same conditions. 

2. You don't believe that there is a significant number of potential customers willing to pay a premium for "happy critter" rather than CAFO meat.

From these two, it follows that 

1. A business plan built on charging a premium for pastured heritage meat is doomed to fail, and

2. Any success a person following such a plan may achieve is built on "salesmanship", a term that to you is apparently synonymous with spouting BS.

Am I right?

Your point about bubbles is well taken, but honestly does not seem to me to be the foundation of your position.


----------



## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

Mountain Mick said:


> As Old Spots & Tamworth are very rare in Australia. very rare. MM


LOL, they are pretty rare here in Ohio, as well, friend....
In fact, they (Heritage Pigs) are rare in all of the United States, for they had fallen out of favor by the consumer for more "modern" breeds capable of producing a lean cut of meat in 6 months in an intensive farming condition versus 8 months(some are much longer than that, to reach the magical weight of 250#-270#).
Yet, I obtained two Old Spots gilts, which when mated to my York/Hamp cross boar ought to produce some very beautiful piglets next spring.
These should have hybrid vigor, produce a well marbled, large hams, and should do so in approx. 6 months....
Perhaps, off season buying is your ticket to owning some of these stock, when folks do not want to feed said animals through the winter(when forage is not available)but they wish to keep their sows cycling, thus bringing a lower buying price.
I paid $60 a piece for my two full blooded Old Spot gilts because of this(out of season)
Greg Zeigler
Alger, Ohio


----------



## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

I will start with the admission that I raise the modern show hogs, but I still love the large blacks.... They are just as good as any modern hog, just more fat....

They excel with green chop or pasture and then will turn around and do just as good in a barn. They have very solid hips, this is a major complaint with heritage hogs.... The inbreeding crowd is not culling bad hips because it dosn't show up until it is too late. The tamworths and GOS I've have had horrible hips.

They are real good breeders, they are good around new experiences.

They are the only heritage hog I'll breed to my sows.... they are actually quite common in commercial hog operations for breeding maternal sow lines... the AI studs will often have LB boars.

I don't have one right now, but I'll probably wish I did.... I just traded a duroc boar with a super pedigree for a GOS boar at 6 weeks old.... I could possibly have some AI for sale off of him in April or may 2011....

I don't really like the way GOS behave, but some people just love them....

It's preference.... the Large balck is just like any modern hog in attitude....

Some of the heritage breeds are real soft temperment and some people love that... If you do, I'll hook you up.

If there is a real demand for large black AI, I'd love to have one of those around the farm also.


----------



## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

RedHogs said:


> I will start with the admission that I raise the modern show hogs, but I still love the large blacks.... They are just as good as any modern hog, just more fat....
> 
> They excel with green chop or pasture and then will turn around and do just as good in a barn. They have very solid hips, this is a major complaint with heritage hogs.... The inbreeding crowd is not culling bad hips because it dosn't show up until it is too late. The tamworths and GOS I've have had horrible hips.
> 
> ...


Bad hips? Could you describe exactly what that deformity is?
My two Old Spot gilts are now approaching 100-125# range, and look VERY good.
I really do enjoy my GOS behavior, very friendly.
Sadly, though, getting to the feed trough, with those two under foot, plus my York/Hamp crosses can be challenging at times
Greg Zeigler
Alger, Ohio


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

FrankRichards said:


> Haypoint,
> 
> I hesitate to put words in your mouth, but I'd like to try to express, what I think your real concerns are:
> 
> ...


1.	I do not believe that pastured pork is desired by most people. I believe that most people do not care. I think that there is a difference in flavor based on total diet but pasture raised doesnât always enhance flavor. I believe there is a novelty in Heritage breeds. Some folks prefer venison to beef. Some prefer Wild Boar to domestic grain fed pork. But the vast majority of people enjoy what they are raised on and that is commercially raised pork.
2.	I believe that most folks do not want to think about their pork chop being murdered for their dining pleasure. I believe most people do not dwell on the lifestyle of the pig while it grew up. In fact many prefer a well lit, clean concrete structure raised pig to a happy contented pig wallowing in a foot of cool mud. To change that perception requires salesmanship. But to do that you must believe you can become âone with your pigsâ and understand what makes them happy. You might even have to believe they are happy to see you and not just âThat supplier of our slopâ. I think there is an element of BS in most salesmanship.

The harsh reality is that expecting to command a price beyond market limits is uncommon. It takes salesmanship, time and a bit of luck. Over the years, I have seen farmers scrambling to find buyers for their finished pork. All too often, buyers back out, leaving the farmer little option but to discount his pigs or pour more feed into them with little expectation for any return on that extra feed.

In most cases tacking a sign at the end of your driveway, â Pastured Pork, $4.00 a poundâ will result in a failure. If you spend 6 hours on Saturday mornings at the farmerâs market, 50 miles away, you may make some sales. Whatâs your time worth?

For those of us working away from the farm, taking on the additional job of marketing cuts into family time too much.

If I buy a horse from John for $100 and sell it to Jack for $200, is that salesmanship or BS? 

If I buy Angora Goats in Texas for $50 each and bring them to northern Michigan as prime breeders to sell at $200 each, Salesmanship or BS?

If I buy a 16 oz bottle of Spring water for $1.00 and sell it as Holy Water for $100.00 is that salesmanship or BS?

If I advertize Lard as 100% sugar free and charge double what Crisco sells for, is that Salesmanship or BS?
If I sell Cane Sugar as 100% free of saturated fats and charge more for it is that salesmanship or BS? 

If I promote my pigs as âhormone freeâ, just as all CAFO pigs are, but charge extra for that, is it salesmanship or BS?

If I sell raw milk as a health food, when there is no discernable difference in vitamins and minerals from pasteurized milk, is that salesmanship or BS? 

When Koles sends me a 20% off coupon for a store full of 40% overpriced stuff is that salesmanship or BS?

If someone convinces you to give 10% of everything you own and earn to the worldâs wealthiest non-taxed association in exchange for an eternal passage to an unknown and unseen place, is that salesmanship or BS?

Pasture raised Heritage breed pigs are unique and fun to have around. I do not see any interest in paying extra for pork from these pigs. Perhaps in some areas you do. Iâd like to promote my common pigs as locally grown, perhaps promote their value over those raised in corporate farms.

The local slaughterhouse/butcher shop sells locally raised pork. When demand exceeds supply, he buys pigs from a sale barn 100 miles away. It all sells the same. Is he a salesman or pedaling BS?


----------



## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

"Salesmanship" is providing a quality product at a good price, while explaining the facts that make it worth the price. "BS" is lying while you are selling. Pretty easy distinction, IMO.


----------



## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

> 1. I do not believe that pastured pork is desired by most people. I believe that most people do not care. I think that there is a difference in flavor based on total diet but pasture raised doesn&#8217;t always enhance flavor. I believe there is a novelty in Heritage breeds. Some folks prefer venison to beef. Some prefer Wild Boar to domestic grain fed pork. But the vast majority of people enjoy what they are raised on and that is commercially raised pork.
> 2. I believe that most folks do not want to think about their pork chop being murdered for their dining pleasure. I believe most people do not dwell on the lifestyle of the pig while it grew up. In fact many prefer a well lit, clean concrete structure raised pig to a happy contented pig wallowing in a foot of cool mud. To change that perception requires salesmanship. But to do that you must believe you can become &#8220;one with your pigs&#8221; and understand what makes them happy. You might even have to believe they are happy to see you and not just &#8220;That supplier of our slop&#8221;. I think there is an element of BS in most salesmanship.
> 
> The harsh reality is that expecting to command a price beyond market limits is uncommon. It takes salesmanship, time and a bit of luck. Over the years, I have seen farmers scrambling to find buyers for their finished pork. All too often, buyers back out, leaving the farmer little option but to discount his pigs or pour more feed into them with little expectation for any return on that extra feed.
> ...


I completely agree with your beliefs about the majority of people. Overwhelming is in the eye of the beholder. I don't need a majority of people wanting my meat, I need enough to buy what I produce. In this area, given the colleagues/competition, my educated guess is 3-5% of the population is required to support us. So far, that number seems to be there.

I agree my situation is different than yours: I am in a granola area, with 80,000 people in the county. My wife sold software (successfully) for many years, until she couldn't stand the travel anymore. Her version of salesmanship is being in the room with a business card when someone says, "I'd like to buy....".We are empty nesters. We attended the last kid's graduation and started farming.

There is one upscale butcher shop in the county seat, selling top quality conventional meat. I've had it, the difference from supermarket generic is obvious. I sell my pastured heritage meat for prices competitive with him, not the supermarket. Similarly, I sell my eggs for the same price that the supermarket charges for organic free range eggs, not what it charges for "eggs".

I left Detroit many years ago, in pursuit of regular paychecks. I won't claim my model works in the UP. I suspect it may only work on the periphery of a metropolitan area. Still, I believe it is a viable, permanent living for, oh, 1% of the population. That would be three million people.


----------



## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

"I left Detroit many years ago, in pursuit of regular paychecks. I won't claim my model works in the UP. I suspect it may only work on the periphery of a metropolitan area. Still, I believe it is a viable, permanent living for, oh, 1% of the population. That would be three million people."

That being the case, then why do MANY trumpet getting into the Heritage Hog market to EVERYONE, when ONLY 1% have a realistic chance at making a living at it?
Perhaps this is why many folks who tried it and GOT BURNED, are upset at the sponsors of such an enterprise.
As I stated before, Frank, if one goes down to the Ford dealership, and buys a truck, and it does not live up to expectations, then one will be down on Fords......

Greg Zeigler
Alger, Ohio


----------



## HeritagePigs (Aug 11, 2009)

"ONLY 1% have a realistic chance at making a living at it?"

That's probably true. I only know of one person who has "made a living" at selling heritage hogs (not me). Most of us do it as part of a diversified farm plan. That is what I tell customers; it's not going to pay for the mortgage. If the farm is your only source of income you need to have a whole farm thing going and even then you have to understand that a small farmer's life is a small life. For me, that's the attraction.

Probably 80% of my customers live in the sticks, just like me.


----------



## DWH Farm (Sep 1, 2010)

I think that there are alot of people like myself who buy/raise heritage hogs not to "make a living" at it but to put food on the table (literally).My motivation for buying a heritage breed was to raise meat for my family. Yes, I could do that with any breed but through research as well as trial and error we found the breed that best fit into our plans/situation happened to be a heritage breed. If my motivations were different and I wanted to sell as many pigs as I could that might be different.. I want a breed that will do well on pasture because that is less feed that I have to buy. I have had hamps, yorks, berks, durocs and large blacks. I have found that the LB's do best on pasture. Not trying to "sell" anyone on a particular breed, but that is my experience and what works for us.


----------



## FrankRichards (Dec 9, 2004)

Greg, that is a strawman argument to end all strawmen. I sincerely doubt that anyone has ever suggested (at least since WWII) that all 300 million of us should be raising any livestock of any kind, let alone heritage pigs.

As I recall, the census bureau says that only 2% of the population primarily makes their living from agriculture. I submit that if the pastured heritage livestock model (as Brian says, it has to be part of a general farm) will support that number rising to 2.5%, and let a quarter of those already farming quit their day jobs, then it is quite significant. If not for the whole population, it is a big deal for those who are or want to be farmers.


----------



## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

FrankRichards said:


> Greg, that is a strawman argument to end all strawmen. I sincerely doubt that anyone has ever suggested (at least since WWII) that all 300 million of us should be raising any livestock of any kind, let alone heritage pigs.
> 
> As I recall, the census bureau says that only 2% of the population primarily makes their living from agriculture. I submit that if the pastured heritage livestock model (as Brian says, it has to be part of a general farm) will support that number rising to 2.5%, and let a quarter of those already farming quit their day jobs, then it is quite significant. If not for the whole population, it is a big deal for those who are or want to be farmers.


I meant those of us(everyone) either currently or thinking about raising pigs, Frank.
I did not mean the entire U.S. population.
However, considering the coming economic "Perfect Storm" coming, it wouldn't hurt.

Greg Zeigler
Alger, Ohio


----------



## PotBellyPigs (Jul 27, 2010)

HeritagePigs said:


> "ONLY 1% have a realistic chance at making a living at it?"
> 
> That's probably true. I only know of one person who has "made a living" at selling heritage hogs (not me). Most of us do it as part of a diversified farm plan. That is what I tell customers; it's not going to pay for the mortgage. If the farm is your only source of income you need to have a whole farm thing going and even then you have to understand that a small farmer's life is a small life. For me, that's the attraction.
> 
> Probably 80% of my customers live in the sticks, just like me.


Brian, don't you sell your registered Blacks for $400 each?
And you sell out every year(your statement)?
At 10 piglets per litter= $4,000
And how many registered pure bred Blacks do you own?
What kind of mortgage do you have, lol?

Greg Zeigler
Alger, Ohio


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

HeritagePigs said:


> "Salesmanship" is providing a quality product at a good price, while explaining the facts that make it worth the price. "BS" is lying while you are selling. Pretty easy distinction, IMO.


Now hang on there a dad blame minute, Brian. What you believe is a good price and the reasons you think it is worth that price isnât really an easy distinction.
Letâs use the examples I have already listed.
If I buy a horse from John for $100 and sell it to Jack for $200, is that salesmanship or BS? 
No one stays in the horse trading business for long without buying low and selling high. Same for used car salesmen. If I know the horse limps once in a while or the car is hard to start sometimes and I sell them âas isâ, that isnât lying, is it?

If I buy Angora Goats in Texas for $50 each and bring them to northern Michigan as prime breeders to sell at $200 each, Salesmanship or BS?
If these sheep do breed and people want to pay that, do you have to tell them that you think the angora market is about to crash?

If I buy a 16 oz bottle of Spring water for $1.00 and sell it as Holy Water for $100.00 is that salesmanship or BS?
Water is water. Is it lying to call it another name? Perhaps getting water from a spring for a penny and selling it for a dollar is somehow different? Is the bottled water industry lying?

If I advertize Lard as 100% sugar free and charge double what Crisco sells for, is that Salesmanship or BS?
If I sell Cane Sugar as 100% free of saturated fats and charge more for it is that salesmanship or BS? 
These are both true statements. Are they worth more than the standard product? Price is generally established by what the consumer will pay, the demand. What something is worth is a fairly abstract number until it hits the market.

If I promote my pigs as âhormone freeâ, just as all CAFO pigs are, but charge extra for that, is it salesmanship or BS?
This one may hit you close to home. It happens in a few small farm products. Eggs from Free Range chickens are often promoted as being antibiotic free, when the educated seller knows full well that the stuff in the supermarkets are also antibiotic free. I doubt you call that BS. Do you promote your Heritage pork as âchemical free, when you know that there are no chemicals in the pork in the supermarkets? Do you share that known fact with your buyers? Have you ever said, â About the only difference between my pork and that of the pork in the supermarkets is a taste difference, brought on mostly by the lack of corn and soybean in their diet and that all pork is free from added hormones and antibiotics.â? So you believe there is such a thing as âselectiveâ truth? Just wondering.

If I sell raw milk as a health food, when there is no discernable difference in vitamins and minerals from pasteurized milk, is that salesmanship or BS? 
This happens all the time. Are you going to tell the raw milk folks they are liars? Didnât think so. If I believe there are more vitamins in my milk than store-bought and I sell it that way, is that salesmanship or BS, when many studies have shown it to be the same?

When Koles sends me a 20% off coupon for a store full of 40% overpriced stuff is that salesmanship or BS?
Iâd call it a successful sales plan. They seem to be operating in the black and growing.

If someone convinces you to give 10% of everything you own and earn to the worldâs wealthiest non-taxed association in exchange for an eternal passage to an unknown and unseen place, is that salesmanship or BS?
The Priests that earn their living from this mandate seem to believe that it is a good deal. Others think it is BS. Clear distinction? Hardly. IMHO.


----------



## Mountain Mick (Sep 10, 2005)

Hi Haypoint,

no as "as is" is that with any faults. if you buy you take all the risks. no BS

and as for what people pay, I have never meet anyone that bought livestock with a Gun pointed at their head, they paid what they are willing to pay and hand out the cash with free will. that not BS 

and as for the market crashing, do you have a crystal ball as I do not, one would have either. what about when the foot in mouth hit England , prime lamb and pork went up by 400% that bad luck not BS you can not see in to future as to what the market will do that why people say they are gambling on the stock market. that no BS. I have a mate that bought a Charolais bull for $10k, it was put out with the heifers and the bull did what bull do, first heifer moved to side bull slipped and broke his hip and after the vet look at him , the bull was load of to meat-works and returned $800, as pet-food, what can the chap blame the breeder he bought the bull from , no that call life, not BS. bad things happen to good people. that life.

Hell I paid $400 ea for Mini pigs and they are that mini. that BS,

And your are heading off topic , If you have anything to add about large black pigs fine or start your own thread above , carpet bags in the livestock trade. 

Thank you Mountain Mick Blake.



haypoint said:


> Now hang on there a dad blame minute, Brian. What you believe is a good price and the reasons you think it is worth that price isn&#8217;t really an easy distinction.
> Let&#8217;s use the examples I have already listed.
> If I buy a horse from John for $100 and sell it to Jack for $200, is that salesmanship or BS?
> No one stays in the horse trading business for long without buying low and selling high. Same for used car salesmen. If I know the horse limps once in a while or the car is hard to start sometimes and I sell them &#8220;as is&#8221;, that isn&#8217;t lying, is it?
> ...


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Mountain Mick,
The topic is &#8220;Why should I get Large Blacks?&#8221; While those that must compete with market prices should not buy LB, those that believe they can market breeding stock at ten times the price for &#8220;common&#8221; pigs, can generally earn a profit. But that takes both marketing skills and proper timing.
One post questioned my definition of salesmanship as BS. I attempted to explain that what might be salesmanship to one person, can be BS to another. One reply to that indicated that salesmanship and BS were clearly distinguishable. I disagree.
If you are thinking of paying a lot of money (ten times local market prices) for a breed of pig, you&#8217;d better understand that to get a return on that investment, you need to be a good salesman. Salesmanship is a part of the reason to buy a Large Black. That is the topic.
Every product that sells for prices far above market prices eventually pops its bubble. I&#8217;ve seen it with lots of the exotic breeds. It happens even in common farm commodities. When corn prices go up for a couple years, everybody plants corn and the market has a glut of corn and prices drop. Angus feeders have been inching their way up over the past few years. As the price goes up, more folks think they&#8217;ll make money in the Angus feeder business. Fewer cows get butchered, more become breeding stock. Then when all those extra calves start hitting the market, prices crash. You don&#8217;t need a crystal ball to figure that out. Just pay attention for awhile.
Since marketing is the key to profiting from LB, and understanding the difference between salesmanship and straight up BS is a major factor in marketing a product, I think I&#8217;m on topic. Perhaps a broken bull pelvis and your $400 mini pigs aren&#8217;t on topic. 
In the future, I&#8217;d suggest you just stick to the OP and refrain from telling me what to do. There are moderators for that. What you did just leads to verbal fights. We don&#8217;t need that. 
I am still interested in hearing an on topic response from you. Care to share your thoughts?


----------



## Mountain Mick (Sep 10, 2005)

Hi Haypoint 

The topic is *&#8220;Why should I get Large Blacks?&#8221;* the *key* word is *"WHY I should"*,,,,, *"Not why I should not get Large Blacks?&#8221;*so you are off topic, and you are the one doing the fighting not me, ,

simple thing is you had a bad go round with your Large Black Pigs and you are do on them , and that is clear in your first post here, 

Again my question was *&#8220;Why should I get Large Blacks?&#8221;* so please unless you have any information as to you Why should I get Large Blacks, refrain from telling me what to do , Thank you , Mick


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Oh, I thought the question was an attempt to have an open discussion of both the reasons for and against the plan. I'll shut up now so the OP can just hear the glowing reports from those folks that are pro-Large Blacks. 
In reviewing this thread, when you take out comments against LB, comments about other pasture raised livestock, other Heritage breeds, cross breeding, profitability of salesmanship, nessessesity of salesmanship to profit from heritage breeds in general, your comment about Tamworths, someone&#8217;s comments about Spots, Hamps, Yorks and crosses, heritage hog hip troubles, Salesmanship vs BS, 1% that want heritage breed pork, you haven&#8217;t gotten much interest in this OP.
In an open forum like this, discussion is almost always a display of facts, information and opposing viewpoints. OP that start out, &#8220; Why should I get married&#8230;.&#8221;, &#8220;Why should I buy a new car&#8230;&#8221;, &#8220;Why should I buy day old calves from a Livestock Auction&#8230;.&#8221; Can expect to generate differing viewpoints. 
Next time, start it off with, &#8220; How can I convince my wife/ Mom/parents to let me buy some Large Black pigs.&#8221; That might help direct the comments to just positive comments. Otherwise you get those open expressions of thought that you aren&#8217;t looking for.
I hope you keep the &#8216;crocks from eating the little Creamies while they&#8217;re on their walkabout, Mate.


----------



## Mountain Mick (Sep 10, 2005)

Hi Haypoint,

Thank you for seeing the way I was hoping the discussion would answer for me.

I See the someone as open a new thread about "which heritage breeds are right for me?" this may help me.

But your last statement offends me the most as an part native Aussie.
"I hope you keep the &#8216;crocks from eating the little Creamies while they&#8217;re on their walkabout, Mate" as "little Creamies" refer in Australia to half cast aboriginal children,. and is look at as bad as the "N" word to African Americans, and to place them on "their walkabout" is the worst think you can do. it is like voodoo, to native Aussie. as they donot have knowledge to come back from "walkabout" it is called "pointing the bone" and what you have stated is you wish bad things to happen to my Little ones. MY mother "RIP" is a quarter case aboriginal she was for The Jagera, Yuppera and Ugarapul peoples that were traditional owners of the Brisbane Valley district. and a Irish mother,, so I wish you and yours blessings and good wish from the creator, This magic is stronger that your wishes. My Dad was from Irish/English stock. which make me 1/8cast. Matey MM



haypoint said:


> Oh, I thought the question was an attempt to have an open discussion of both the reasons for and against the plan. I'll shut up now so the OP can just hear the glowing reports from those folks that are pro-Large Blacks.
> In reviewing this thread, when you take out comments against LB, comments about other pasture raised livestock, other Heritage breeds, cross breeding, profitability of salesmanship, nessessesity of salesmanship to profit from heritage breeds in general, your comment about Tamworths, someone&#8217;s comments about Spots, Hamps, Yorks and crosses, heritage hog hip troubles, Salesmanship vs BS, 1% that want heritage breed pork, you haven&#8217;t gotten much interest in this OP.
> In an open forum like this, discussion is almost always a display of facts, information and opposing viewpoints. OP that start out, &#8220; Why should I get married&#8230;.&#8221;, &#8220;Why should I buy a new car&#8230;&#8221;, &#8220;Why should I buy day old calves from a Livestock Auction&#8230;.&#8221; Can expect to generate differing viewpoints.
> Next time, start it off with, &#8220; How can I convince my wife/ Mom/parents to .[/let me buy some Large Black pigs.&#8221; That might help direct the comments to just positive comments. Otherwise you get those open expressions of thought that you aren&#8217;t looking for.I hope you keep the &#8216;crocks from eating the little Creamies while they&#8217;re on their walkabout, Mate
> QUOTE]


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Most I know who don't raise their own, buy their pork from 'backyard breeders' or farmers. Just looking at the pork shows a remarkable difference than what's in the grocery stores. Home grown isn't pale, it's a deep rosy color. Some have said they don't even have to add any seasonings, since the meat is so flavorfull. 

And it doesn't seem to matter what breed is grown; it's HOW they're grown.

These forums are the only place I see the Heritage breeds pushed. If something works for you, that's all that matters. 


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Wisdom doesn't always come with age. Some of us are still learning.


----------



## Mountain Mick (Sep 10, 2005)

Hi Rogo,

Thank you for your common sense idea ,it make sense, that "it's HOW they're grown" I agree, thank you greatly, well said, MM




Rogo said:


> Most I know who don't raise their own, buy their pork from 'backyard breeders' or farmers. Just looking at the pork shows a remarkable difference than what's in the grocery stores. Home grown isn't pale, it's a deep rosy color. Some have said they don't even have to add any seasonings, since the meat is so flavorfull.
> 
> And it doesn't seem to matter what breed is grown; it's HOW they're grown.
> 
> ...


----------



## chicamarun (Dec 26, 2006)

I love my large blacks - but they take a long time to grow vs a commercial breed.

HOWEVER - if my wild 3 year old child got into the pen with the hogs.... it's no big deal - they are that docile. It's the main reason we have them. I only have 1 breeding pair. The meat is extremely yummy. Last litter was 11 or 12. 7 are still alive.

I'm planning on getting a commerical cross gilt to cross with the boar. Just not sure if we would keep her around for a long time.

And it's all in the marketing if you want to make money - plain and simple. My large black pork sells for over $2.00 more per pound than the commerical feeder pig meat (we raise for 4-5 months straight from weaning)


----------



## woodsman14 (Oct 6, 2014)

HeritagePigs said:


> A mistake people often make is to compare heritage pigs to more modern breeds. It's apples and oranges. You choose a particular breed of animal for a particular need.


I tried the website link for Homegrown Acres and it is a search engine?


----------



## Tirzah (May 19, 2006)

I've wondered that myself.


----------



## woodsman14 (Oct 6, 2014)

I'm crossing Hereford and Large Black Hog, not sure it will improve anything except it makes a black hereford. I've found both are more difficult to casterate than Yorks, Hamps or Duroc... their sacks are thicker as are their cords.


----------



## Tirzah (May 19, 2006)

regarding member Heritage Pigs.


----------



## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

woodsman14 said:


> I'm crossing Hereford and Large Black Hog, not sure it will improve anything except it makes a black hereford. I've found both are more difficult to casterate than Yorks, Hamps or Duroc... their sacks are thicker as are their cords.


Yes i have noticed they are harder to cut. Best to cut them very young. That cross should give you a bit larger Hams, then just LB.


----------

