# Oh God..Gretta has Johnes



## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

The test result just came in...positive. I'm have to throw up. She has to be put to sleep and all my others probably have it too.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Noooo. Oh, no. I have no words ((((hugs))))


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

:Bawling: So sorry to hear. Johnes is a scary disease. Problem is people think it's not common in goats - and it is more common than we are led to believe simply because most people sell unthrifty goats to meat man, instead of testing.  

As long as they are not suffering, there is no reason to put down the others. If you think Greta is suffering, then choose what is best for her. Personally, I'd consider getting a necropsy done to see if the intestine is damaged like a johnes animal would be.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Oh, dear. I can't think of what to say. This is awful. I can't imagine.


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## dbarjacres (Feb 2, 2004)

Oh gosh, I'm so, so, so sorry. 

I know it's hard to think of it now, but I'd gladly get a couple of my kids to you next spring.


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## Donna1982 (Jun 14, 2011)

Oh sweetheart I am so sorry.


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## Suzyq2u (May 17, 2010)

Oh no! I'm so very sorry


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## mrs.H (Mar 6, 2003)

:Bawling:I am so sorry! Poor little Gretta. :Bawling:


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I am so sorry! I am at a loss for words right now. I don't think I would have all of them put down. Like Mygoat said, they are not all showing symptoms & could be years before they show any. It's not like you breed or show them. Sending my biggest Hugs, I just wish there was more I could do.


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## cayenne47 (Nov 7, 2004)

:Bawling::grouphug:


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Minelson, I am so sorry about Gretta and the diagnosis. I think I would take it a step at a time. If you aren't going to bring more goats in..and the other goats are not showing symptoms..I don't think I would put them down. Maybe you should test the remaining ones to know for sure if they have it or not.

Again, this is hard news for ya..I know your heart is breaking..know that mine is breaking for you two also.


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## momagoat61 (Mar 30, 2008)

Oh no!!!! i'm so sorry to hear she came back positve, I'm speechless.. Please take it one step at a time and know we are all here for you, sending prayers to you and all your Kids.. May god give you strength to get through this!


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## mammabooh (Sep 1, 2004)

Oh, no. I am SO sorry to hear this. So very sad.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I am so sorry, that is awful  

I would not put the rest down, I would test them all then go from there. Frankie and Flossie even if they are positive can live a few more years till they become symptomatic, I would keep them away from the babies if they are positive.

:grouphug:


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## Strange Bear (May 13, 2002)

I am so sorry to hear that. You and she fought so hard.


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## MaddieLynn (Nov 23, 2011)

I would run another test just to be sure. Aren't you supposed to have 2 consecutive positives to be sure?


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

With tears in my eyes- I'm so sorry for your pain and for poor Gretta. (((hugs)))
I know you tried so hard. 
Please keep telling us how you are doing. I know that when I lose an animal that I don't want to talk about it but I think that is not healing. We do care for you here.


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## Dreamgoat Annie (Nov 28, 2011)

Minelson said:


> The test result just came in...positive. I'm have to throw up. She has to be put to sleep and all my others probably have it too.


Oh no, oh no. Minelson, I am so sorry. Crying here. I'll continue sending Reiki. What a horrible thing for Gretta and for you. 

Sue


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## chewie (Jun 9, 2008)

oh honey, I am SO sorry. big hugs to you.


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## dunroven (Dec 6, 2004)

Oh what can I say to make you feel better. I have, as you probably know, been going through deep waters and thinking my buck had this awful disease as well. I absolutely know what you are feeling. Please accept my condolences. Why, oh why do we become soooooo attached to these animals? Its like sticking your heart in the paper shredder and it just happens so fast, you have no intention of getting "that close" and it happens anyway. Hugs and prayers coming your way.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Somehow I have got to get my ---- together but I just can't yet. Tinker just ran past the window and it dropped me to my knees. I am totally non-functional and cannot think clearly


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## anita_fc (May 24, 2008)

Aw, crap. I am so sorry. Prayers from Idaho...

Anita


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

oh no how devastating. You arent spose to function right now. This is awful news. Take a deep breath. Somehow you will get through this. Many of us wish we could be there with you in person.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

I am so sorry!

Thinking of you and Gretta. sending hugs.


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## mamahen (May 11, 2002)

Don't do anything yet - read this article: ANTIMICROBIAL THERAPY - JOHNE'S INFORMATION CENTER

It's about treating the disease with antibiotics. It states that most people don't treat long term, because of cost - but maybe the vet can let you get a long term script filled at a human pharmacy (cheaper). 

Maybe worth a try?


You all still are in my thoughts and prayers..:grouphug:


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I was also reading up on the disease & it says it is transmitted through the fecal matter. Normally it says it is transmitted through contaminated water buckets or hay/grass that has the affected fecal on it from the infected goat. You are so clean about your herd & animal practices it might be possible that Gretta got this as a kid before coming to your place & no one else contracted it.
It also says that it can be passed from dam to kids in the uterus but I'm trying to stay positive & think of the best possible outcome.


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## Zilli (Apr 1, 2012)

I am so sorry.

I'm with the others about not making any major decisions for a little while.

Let the shock settle for a day or two and then consider ALL the options.

Again, I am so sorry.


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## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

I'm so sorry for the bad news  I agree with the others...don't make any long lasting decisions right now. You need to research this and find out more before you decide on what to do.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

mamahen said:


> Don't do anything yet - read this article: ANTIMICROBIAL THERAPY - JOHNE'S INFORMATION CENTER


This link on antibiotic therapy is fascinating (I love the johnes.org website). Monensin, which they mentioned, is a really common feed addetive commonly called rumensin. It is used as a coccidistat, growth promotant etc. It is inexpensive and easy to obtain. I have it added to a mixed ration at a rate of 20g/ton, and I feed it 6 weeks pre kidding to lower levels of cocci shed by adults into the environment, because I dam raise boer kids where they are exposed to cocci in the environment. 20g/ton is the acceptable level used in goat rations, for food producing animals.. you could vary to your wishes since nobody would know...  Johnes.org people are very easy to contact via email with any questions, it'd be worth it to email and ask them questions about giving monensin and see if the studies could be forwarded to you so you can see how many mg/day cows on the trial were given. It is probably a normal accepted amount commonly used in a feed ration already, but from there you could decide to increase the amount or direct dose depending on your situation. Monensin is non Rx, and can be purchased at feed mills that mix their own feed. 

As for scripts, I doubt a human pharmacy is cheaper - nor do I think vets can write a script to be picked up at a human pharmacy? BUT, many vet supply companies will accept scripts from a vet that you either have the vet fax in or mail it in - and then they'll ship you Rx's to your door. Cheaper than getting them from the vet, by far.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

mamahen said:


> Don't do anything yet - read this article: ANTIMICROBIAL THERAPY - JOHNE'S INFORMATION CENTER
> 
> It's about treating the disease with antibiotics. It states that most people don't treat long term, because of cost - but maybe the vet can let you get a long term script filled at a human pharmacy (cheaper).
> 
> ...


I tried to read it but my head is spinning. I will save it. Thank you!


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## Zilli (Apr 1, 2012)

mygoat said:


> BUT, many vet supply companies will accept scripts from a vet that you either have the vet fax in or mail it in - and then they'll ship you Rx's to your door. Cheaper than getting them from the vet, by far.


Valley Vet is one; I'm unsure about Jeffer's.

But for any long term prescription medicine needs, getting them on-line is way cheaper. The vets really mark up the meds they dispense.

My vet will fax in a prescription; I would think it would be a fairly common practice.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

PBS animal health is another good one for taking Rx's. I *think* American Livestock Supply also has Rx's. Though more 'pet' drugs, Drs. Foster and Smith also sells Rx's. 

Jeffers doesn't carry any Rx's that I'm aware of.


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## crazy4equines (Apr 15, 2012)

so sorry to hear about your goat. Hugs to you...


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## April (Nov 28, 2006)

Big hugs. I'm so sorry.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

This is what Vicki posted over on DGI 
And Johnnes positive, I bet if you copper bolused her and she lives through what is really wrong with her...that she would be negative. Johnnes in goats is very very rare. Even in cattle the only reliable test is performed at necropsy, so why goat folks believe this whole hype on Johnnes is beyond me. IF a diagnosis of blood or fecal was accurate, than the cattle guys would use it and they do not, they use necropsy. The amount of manure needed to pass johnnes would give such filthy conditions she was born in her barn, tht she likely would have succombed to ecoli or cocci as a goatling. Vicki

So what do I do with that???


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## jcatblum (Dec 15, 2009)

My vet has given me human prescriptions before & I have a friend whose dog also takes a daily human prescription. Just depends on the relationship you have with your vet I guess. 

Sorry the test came back positive. I am sure everyone here will offer all the knowledge & experience they have. So sorry you are going through this!


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## crazy4equines (Apr 15, 2012)

I remember my vet telling me basically the same thing about johnnes. He also said that is was more prevalent in soil where cattle have been. I have never been to worried about Johnnes as I do not know of anyone in my area that has ever had any issues with Johnnes.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

I am SO sorry! Prayers and hugs for you and Greta!


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## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

I have no words of wisdom Mileson only lots of hugs and tears. So sorry for the diagnosis.


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## dunroven (Dec 6, 2004)

Before you do anything. IF I had done as I believed with the Johnes possibility, my goat would have been dead yesterday. Today he's still alive, not well for certain, but he's alive and slllooooowwwlllyy making a comeback. Don't give up if there is a possibility that it might be a false positive! Praying for you!


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

You don't breed and sell, I would keep my goats as long as they were doing alright.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I would have to separate her from the rest...she is skinny, cold and disorientated when outside. It's only going to get colder. I can wait and see though...but then I increase the risk of the others getting infected if by some miracle they haven't been yet. And she would not be happy bei9ng seperated at all.  This is so hard.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Minelson said:


> This is what Vicki posted over on DGI
> And Johnnes positive, I bet if you copper bolused her and she lives through what is really wrong with her...that she would be negative. Johnnes in goats is very very rare. Even in cattle the only reliable test is performed at necropsy, so why goat folks believe this whole hype on Johnnes is beyond me. IF a diagnosis of blood or fecal was accurate, than the cattle guys would use it and they do not, they use necropsy. The amount of manure needed to pass johnnes would give such filthy conditions she was born in her barn, tht she likely would have succombed to ecoli or cocci as a goatling. Vicki
> 
> So what do I do with that???


Wow..if this was a certain Vicki that I totally respect and trust..I would give it some serious thought.

Of course..like a lot of others on here..I have been reading about Johannes. I must say that with close to 70% of milking cow herds supposedly affected..something seems off to me on the whole scenario. I can't put my finger on it. I mean, if Johnnes is THAT prevalent..wouldn't everyone be more aware and beating feet to get every last thing on their place tested? 

If Chrons (sp) Disease is getting more prevalent..people don't instantly die from that. And if I'm reading correctly..it's supposed to be the "human" form of Johnes. I guess I have more questions than answers. 

I guess I would go back to the mineral imbalance. If they can test my hair and find out that I am totally messed up with my minerals and vitamins..surely they can test a goat. 

I would also treat her for infection like the first vet.

All this is moot if she is suffering though.

Just me Minelson..still pondering


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## The Tin Mom (Dec 30, 2008)

Oh, Minelson! 

:awh:


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## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

I think you just need to figure out how to get her healthy. I know you've been trying, but now that you know what you *might* be dealing with it should help figure out a course of treatment. I personally wouldn't separate her from Frankie and Flossie. They have been together for 4 years (I think). They would have either gotten it by now or she doesn't have it either.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Minelson said:


> This is what Vicki posted over on DGI
> And Johnnes positive, I bet if you copper bolused her and she lives through what is really wrong with her...that she would be negative. Johnnes in goats is very very rare. Even in cattle the only reliable test is performed at necropsy, so why goat folks believe this whole hype on Johnnes is beyond me. IF a diagnosis of blood or fecal was accurate, than the cattle guys would use it and they do not, they use necropsy. The amount of manure needed to pass johnnes would give such filthy conditions she was born in her barn, tht she likely would have succombed to ecoli or cocci as a goatling. Vicki
> 
> So what do I do with that???


Mostly wrong, unfortunately. And, it can also spread through milk/colostrum and in utero, not JUST fecal-oral. Cleanliness is an issue but that doesn't mean that she had to be in 'filthy' conditions (especially not filthy enough to question survival) to contract it. Especially if she was exposed as a youngster. Usually the amount of infection causing bacteria is smaller for young animals (weak immune system) than it is for adults. Supposedly, spread is very low between adults probably because their immune system is strong enough to battle it. Then again, how many cows are kept for years to study if they turn positive 5 years after exposure? Most 5 year old dairy cows are nearing the end of their productive careers, and are shipped to slaughter anyways. Not a lot of research is done (or is feasible, or practical) to see how transmission occurs between adults. We KNOW this disease has a long incubation period, and that it's hard to test for. Information is small, but it's something to consider. 

I work at DCPAH, and we do Johnes testing - ELISA and culture. Many semen sales places test their sires for Johnes. MANY, MANY places test for Johnes, either because they are a certified free farm OR because they are working on eradicating it from their herd. We get many samples per week (usually not herdwide, but herd random samples or samples of 'suspects'), and we get TONS of fecal cultures during certain times of the year from breeding/semen sales places.. There are eradication programs, all optional but suggested. The tests are perfectly reliable, it is the way the disease works that causes false negatives. If the animal isn't shedding, then it generally can't test positive - but it still IS infected. Also, the ELISAs just show exposure, not necessarily infection. That is why you never stop at one herdwide test to give you answers. I just heard the other day from a guest lecturer that a ELISA test can determine about 40% of infected cows from a herd, and a fecal will find about 50% of infected cows. Testing is a tool to be used in conjunction with biosecurity and proper management to stop spread of disease. In suspicious animals, a necrospy is usually suggested because the lesions caused by johnes is SO clear to pathologists, and can really be definitive especially when you have animals that need to be euthanized anyways. But, the fecal especially when positive (and even more so when backed up by a PCR) is pretty darn accurate. It's the negatives you have to 'worry' about, there - either they were recently exposed and aren't shedding yet, or they're simply on the upswing in health and therefore their immune system is keeping it in check. Those animals may suddenly turn for the worse the next calving as stress levels rise drastically. So yes, a postiive animal *may* test negative later. But a positive fecal sample I would call pretty indicitive, ESPECIALLY if backed up with PCR. 

We regularly get johnes positive goats and cows where I work - I don't hear about ELISA results, but I work in Bacteriology and I hear about the cultures. We follow up positives with PCR confirmation, which looks for specifically MAP DNA, to ensure it's not a false positive. That's pretty darn conclusive. Simply, goats are not tested as often, which gives a false sense of security that it is 'not common' in goats. Little research has been done with johnes and goats, simply because the goat industry is not a 'cash cow' like dairy, beef, swine, or even the sheep industry. (same reason why most drugs are used off-label for goats).


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Gretta had the PCR test


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

So did the goat in question ever have any contact with Cattle? 

I seem to remember when CAE prevention first came about that people who didn't want to pasteurize goat milk or heat treat goat colostrum would use raw cow milk and colostrum and some reported having Johnes develop.

Also a few people who raised Holstein steers on their goat milk and intermingled the goats and cows got it.


I have a buddy who raises beef cattle and sheep but his mom got some holstein calves to raise and brought it in to both their beef cattle and their sheep. Ugh.

The state vet once told me that he reccomended that the cattle people do like the goat people do and raise the kids on pasteurize milk separately from the adults to lessen the likelyhood of it.

I've never had cows on my place but I always worry because I buy hay and every now and then I'll see chunk of manure in the hay where they put it on the field. I actually stopped getting feed mixed at this one place because they used used bags.


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## dbarjacres (Feb 2, 2004)

I agree with mygoat. Being in a major dairy cattle area I've had a talk with my vet this spring when deciding if we wanted to add cattle or not. His information was pretty much the same. I don't know where vicki got that copper info from.

Again, so sorry you are going thru this.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Hollowdweller said:


> So did the goat in question ever have any contact with Cattle?
> 
> I seem to remember when CAE prevention first came about that people who didn't want to pasteurize goat milk or heat treat goat colostrum would use raw cow milk and colostrum and some reported having Johnes develop.
> 
> ...



Gretta's first couple years are a mystery


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm going to relate an article I read in Stockman Grass Farmer several years ago. I can't cite the issue or authors, don't remember. 

A Johne's positive bull in poor condition was put on pasture/hay and minerals only. The theory was that the acidic gut conditions that grain feeding causes allow the bacterium that causes Johne's to flourish and that if the gut was rested from any unnatural feeding methods it could recover. The bull's condition improved over time and he tested negative for Johne's two years later. I don't remember any more of the story than this, don't remember why they waited two years to retest. 

At the time the article was published we had a Johne's positive cow that I really hated to lose. She was having the projectile diarrhea and losing condition very quickly. We stopped feeding her grain. She stopped losing condition but unfortunately we didn't keep her but about 8 months after that for other reasons, so I don't know what would've happened over the long term. It was very significant to me that she stopped losing condition almost immediately though and held her weight through that 8 months that we kept her. Normally Johne's positive cows go downhill extremely quickly once they reach the projectile diarrhea stage. 

I don't know if this can be of any help to your goat at this stage but maybe it could help your others not convert to a positive status in the future. 

If anyone doesn't believe in this please don't flame, I'm just relating our experience and trying to help. I don't know if any research has been done on the subject.

I do know that dairy cow herds, with their heavy grain diets, do show a much higher incidence of Johne's Disease than pastured beef herds.

I'm really sorry about Gretta.


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## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

Michelle, I really wish this wasn't happening to you  . I just want you to know that I do know how you feel...what you are feeling...and just how awful that feeling is. When my alpacas got sick, it literally made me sick to my stomach. I thought in some way I had failed them. After much research, alot of prayer (and alot of yelling at God) I found peace with it all. These animals were/are my pets and I will do everything in MY power to protect and care for them. Everytime I saw a fly land on one of the alpacas or goats I would freak out thinking that fly was going to once again infect my animals. There are just some things out of our control. I'm sure Gretta got this before she came to live with you. If she had not come to live with you, she probably would have showed signs way before now and would have been very sickly and miserable. You have taken such good care of her that she has stayed healthy for many years and I believe she can feel healthy again! She has been a wonderful friend to you and I know you will do your best for her. Trust your instincts, do your research and know you have many friends who care about you and Gretta


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

Cliff said:


> I do know that dairy cow herds, with their heavy grain diets, do show a much higher incidence of Johne's Disease than beef herds.
> 
> I'm really sorry about Gretta.



Could also be dairy cattle more intensive situations too.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Gretta never got a lot of grain. I know she has a reputation of being fat. But that is cuz I let her graze and browse all day all over 10 acres of smorgesborg. They get a treat of Boss and Alf pellets at night for coming in. An occasional cookie or cracker treat. Plenty of good grass hay. I am not over feeding. I may be over browsing but not over feeding.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Hollowdweller said:


> Could also be dairy cattle more intensive situations too.


Yes, this is one thing that was discussed by my guest lecturer in class the other day. It is MUCH harder to eliminate johnes from dairy herds than it is from beef cattle operations because dairy operations are usually high concentrated. You end up with highly contaminated environments, even if visibly 'clean'. 

This may be why it's less common in goats, too - their poo is much different and they are often not kept in highly concentrated conditions like dairy cows are.


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## Cliff (Jun 30, 2007)

Minelson said:


> Gretta never got a lot of grain. I know she has a reputation of being fat. But that is cuz I let her graze and browse all day all over 10 acres of smorgesborg. They get a treat of Boss and Alf pellets at night for coming in. An occasional cookie or cracker treat. Plenty of good grass hay. I am not over feeding. I may be over browsing but not over feeding.


I wasn't suggesting at all that you over fed. I didn't know Gretta had the reputation of being fat.

I was just relating the information about the grain in case it could be helpful.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Minelson said:


> Gretta had the PCR test


What does PCR stand for?


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## dunroven (Dec 6, 2004)

If it is Johnes, there was no way you could have predicted it. I read that they "get it" when they are kids, but it does not show up until they are adults, and then it just "starts" and takes over. So if you have purchased a goat somewhere else, and unless they are testing their herd for it, you would not know you are bringing it in, also, even if they DID test for it, unless they ARE shedding, the Johnes would not show up. So someone could believe from their tests that they have a perfectly healthy herd, and sell infected babies to someone else, without ever knowing it.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

PCR - Polymerase Chain Reaction. Essentially it amplifies any DNA present. That way they have enough DNA to work with.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Thanks Dona, so then since Gretta had the PCR test it is supposed to be more reliable, is that correct?


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Cliff said:


> I wasn't suggesting at all that you over fed. I didn't know Gretta had the reputation of being fat.
> 
> I was just relating the information about the grain in case it could be helpful.


Yes..I didn't take it that way it just made me think about her feeding and comment on it. If I would have followed the original owners advice then she would have gotten way too much grain...and dog food!!!But I found HT and got great direction and made some great friends. 
This is one of the lowest points of my life


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

mamahen said:


> Don't do anything yet - read this article: ANTIMICROBIAL THERAPY - JOHNE'S INFORMATION CENTER
> 
> It's about treating the disease with antibiotics. It states that most people don't treat long term, because of cost - but maybe the vet can let you get a long term script filled at a human pharmacy (cheaper).
> 
> ...


I will have to come back to this...


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

My heart is breaking for you Min!


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

You're gonna be okay Minelson..really..you are.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Backfourty said:


> My heart is breaking for you Min!


We are just going to have to deal with it. Not now...I'm way past being able to deal at this point. It makes it harder when your hubby is in another country that is about a day and a half off and has no phone service. Gosh darn Congo. He is begging me to keep Gretta going until he gets home. The vet doesn't think that will be a problem and is available 24/7 if I need immediate assistance. He is being great about this and "gets it"


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## momagoat61 (Mar 30, 2008)

Minelson I would like to send Gretta something from me and my goat kids. If you would please email me your address to [email protected] I'll get it in the mail tomorrow or first thing Saturday. It's something I have had for probably 10 years and I don't have a need for it and you do!!! I have family that lives between Pierre and Onida, not sure what section of South Dakota your in. I spent the summer of 1979 in South Dakota on my aunt and uncles 3500 acre ranch between Pierre and Oninda. I'll be looking for your email soon I hope. Please hang in there, we are here for you and Gretta and the kids... Before I send the package have you tryed Di-Methox 40% and the womer Prohibit? I just received an order yesterday and I would be glad to include those items in the package also if you haven't tried them please let me know and those will be coming your way also with Gratte's gift. You don't have the time nor the stength right now to be having to order items you don't have and I have them and I love to share.. I have seen remarkable turn around using those itmes. Please email me your address: Sandy


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Keep her segregated in the off chance she wasn't shedding the virus. Test the others when you feel up to it. Have hubs bring you a BIG bottle of wine. Take a deep breath and a long hot bath. Don't do anything until you've had time to recover from the shock. Hugs mama! What a horrible shock!


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## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

Am sitting here on a bus waiting for the football team to get done and I log on to read thiis ??? I can't believe it?? Maybe the test was wrong ,,,hugss and prayers


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

I would start figuring out what they treat crohnes disease with and start with that. It is a similar disease. I know they use prednisone to reduce the inflammation. Lets all do some research.


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## Jyllie63 (Dec 30, 2004)

KrisD said:


> I would start figuring out what they treat crohnes disease with and start with that. It is a similar disease. I know they use prednisone to reduce the inflammation. Lets all do some research.


My son in law has crohnes. After the initial diagnosis (which was scary and made him very sick) he has managed it by staying away from corn and seeds. It makes me think the previous post (Cliff?) was on to something about removing grain from the diet.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Backfourty said:


> Thanks Dona, so then since Gretta had the PCR test it is supposed to be more reliable, is that correct?


The long and short of it is, yes. A positive *could* be from contamination... Though the media used to grow MAP is VERY specific (IE, inhibits growth of pretty much everything else, while being adequate for growth of MAP). A PCR test essentially will tell you SPECIFICALLY if the DNA for the organism in the positive sample is from MAP. It is about as precise as it can get - it's either MAP DNA or it's not. If MAP DNA is present in the sample, then it MUST be from the innoculum, which is feces from the test subject.

Though usually the graph output from the machines used to incubate the johnes bottles shows false positives pretty obviously - the graph monitors pressure in each individual bottle. The pressure changes as 'something' growing in the bottle undergoes normal metabolism... usually producing/consuming gas, thus changing the pressure. Thankfully due to the media used for growth, most things are inhibited, leaving a very narrow range of possible bugs that could grow. From there, looking at the graphs individually as they go positive, true positives have a VERY distinct graph shape. All positives (at least at DCPAH, last I checked) are sent for PCR confirmation. 

I work tomorrow, I'll try to chat about Johnes with the man who does the testing.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Corn is corn .. right? I say wrong. I don't believe animals were "made" with feeding them corn in mind. And, I believe that GMO and Bt corn has side effects. . on people as well as animals. 

Not to mention that Greta was fed dog food when she was young? Hello..meat scraps in dog food can't be good for ruminants..can it?


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## Lovin' FarmLife (Sep 14, 2009)

Minelson...breathe...take a deep breathe...
I'm sorry that Gretta has gotten this diagnosis...my brother has Crohns and has lived with it for over 20 yrs. I know that steroids are instrumental in keeping it at bay. I know that many Crohns patients go into remission, I'm wondering if it is the same for goats with Johnes. I think that you have more options right now than you are able to think about. Don't give up on anybody yet...look into whatever may help Gretta and it doesn't mean the other are infected. Sending you hugs and strength! Gina


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Was this a fecal or blood test ran on her? I dont know if Im being stubborn and not let it be but doing some research.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I don't know if she was fed dog food. I just remember the seller telling me I could feed her any grain or even dog food. That is when I knew she was coming home with me. And I had no clue...but I knew it was wrong and I could give her a better life. Enen thoug I had no fencing. And that is how the free ranging began


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Cannon_Farms said:


> Was this a fecal or blood test ran on her? I dont know if Im being stubborn and not let it be but doing some research.


It was a fecal PCR test


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## BethW (May 3, 2007)

Oh Michelle. Your poor girl

Don't give up yet. Take a deep breath and take the time you need to process the bad news. Then let's get back to figuring this out. I have faith that if there are options to keep her in better health, this group will find them~


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

BethW said:


> Oh Michelle. Your poor girl
> 
> Don't give up yet. Take a deep breath and take the time you need to process the bad news. Then let's get back to figuring this out. I have faith that if there are options to keep her in better health, this group will find them~


I am just so crushed. I am not giving up but I don't see any way out of this. :Bawling:Right now I am just feeling so sorry for myself and my babies...This is my family!! And my Gretta...no way~ how on earth do I put her to sleep :Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling: it's just too much


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Test all of them before you make any decisions. 

It's hard. It really really stinks. 

I had to put down my Snowbelle after her udder was ruined and infected by a spider bite. We couldn't top the infection. Hurt me dreadfully to walk away from her. Still hurts.

We do understand. Goats are family.

Huggs,
Alice


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## BethW (May 3, 2007)

Minelson said:


> I am just so crushed. I am not giving up but I don't see any way out of this. :Bawling:Right now I am just feeling so sorry for myself and my babies...This is my family!! And my Gretta...no way~ how on earth do I put her to sleep :Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling: it's just too much


How could you not be crushed? I know exactly how you feel about your babies...they're our kids, aren't they? You got Gretta the same time I got my cherubs and we were newbie goat owners together, remember? Imagine what her life would have been like without you.

There's no way to make it better, but know I've been thinking of you and Gretta every day. We all have been. Sending you hugs from VA...:grouphug:


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I'm just really struggling with projection along with in the moment stuff. 

that is a fancy way of saying I'm a mess.


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## BethW (May 3, 2007)

Minelson said:


> I'm just really struggling with projection along with in the moment stuff.
> 
> that is a fancy way of saying I'm a mess.


If I could, I'd fly on out and hold your hand until your hubby comes home.


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## JBarGFarmKeeper (Nov 1, 2011)

BethW said:


> If I could, I'd fly on out and hold your hand until your hubby comes home.


Me, too! Really!


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## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

Minelson said:


> I am just so crushed. I am not giving up but I don't see any way out of this. :Bawling:Right now I am just feeling so sorry for myself and my babies...This is my family!! And my Gretta...no way~ how on earth do I put her to sleep :Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling: it's just too much


We here all totally understand. There was one goat that was so hard for me, just heartbreaking. I will be thinking of you. :grouphug:


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Minelson, don't do anything rash. Get your head together and read the article on antibiotics...I searched myslef after reading this and found the smae thing mentioned a few times. IF your vet is up on this, I would get started right away. I 100% agree that if the rest are't showing symptoms leave them be for now after getting the test. Can you give antibiotics profilactically (sorry for spelling and typos, my own brain is reeling as well)?

This doesn't seem to be a death sentence if aggressively treated, from what I have read.


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## PKBoo (Apr 10, 2008)

Oh Minelson - I'm so very sorry!

You need to just go to bed tonight - tomorrow will be another day you'll have with Gretta. Don't make any decisions until your DH gets home, and you can talk together. It'll be ok :grouphug:


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## iloveafarmer (Feb 23, 2008)

I'm so sorry about Gretta! Try and take care of yourself too, it's easy to forget to do that at times like this.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

NJEI: Testing I'm thinking retesting is is in order as it reads to be it takes a lot longer to culture fecal. I would blood test as well.


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## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

I am so sorry Michelle :Bawling: :Bawling: :Bawling:. I agree with everyone though take a day or two to think before deciding anything. I will be praying for you and Gretta! (((((((HUGGGGGGS))))))))

Justine


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## mrs.H (Mar 6, 2003)

Minelson said:


> I am just so crushed. I am not giving up but I don't see any way out of this. :Bawling:Right now I am just feeling so sorry for myself and my babies...This is my family!! And my Gretta...no way~ how on earth do I put her to sleep :Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling::Bawling: it's just too much


I know cyber arms are hard to feel, but we are all hugging you while you cry. We are crying with you. (((((((HUGGGGGGS))))))))


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## Tallabred (May 23, 2008)

I first read this last night. I am so sorry. Farm life REALLY sucks sometimes! I just do not know what to say - wish you were closer


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## Strange Bear (May 13, 2002)

Can you put a sleeveless sweatshirt on her to keep her a bit warmer? I know people are afraid of heat lamps in their barn but maybe there is something else that she can keep her warm. Also a dog coat on top of the sweatshirt.
Will she drink out of a bottle? Maybe giving her smaller but more frequent feedings of high calorie food that is easy to digest would help.


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## AuntKitty (Oct 25, 2004)

I am so sorry you and Gretta are going through this. I have always enjoyed the adventures of Gretta and your other goats!

I didn't see your post on DGI, but did Vickie know about the Onyx minerals and the Replamin Gretta has been getting? Gretta should already have plenty of copper from that so maybe Vickie might have something different to say. It seems to me that Johnes sits in the gut of an infected goat until something else compromises the immune system and then the Johnes jumps into action. So the problem Gretta had a month or so ago might be what set it off and your other goats, if they even are infected, may not have any "trigger" event so the Johnes may never kick in. I would take that chance if they were my goats and were just pets. I also would have Gretta re-tested in every way possible just to rule out the possibility of a mistake. It can't hurt and with so many people praying for her, you might just get a miracle!

Hang in there, we are all pulling for you and Gretta!

Kitty


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

Azithromycin (Z-pack) is on that list of antibiotics -- in humans, it has a very long half life and it's not hideously inexpensive. I dunno if it's safe for goats, but it might be worth a try. In people it doesn't have too many side effects. Maybe do a pulse dose with it, and then another macrolide antibiotic that could be used as a maintenance dose.

I'm sorry to hear about Gretta -- I lost one of my favorite does recently, and it broke my heart, but in Xena's case it was the right decision to put her down. She'd broken her leg, it wasn't repairable, and she was in shock and a lot of pain. Sometimes, that's the right choice for the animal too.

*hugs*


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Gretta is doing better today. The Dex and Thiamine must have helped. I wonder how long you can keep a goat on Dex before the liver fails. 
I am doing a lot of research on anti-biotics and will talk to the vet about it. 
Today she does not seem like a goat that needs to be put to sleep. My head is still spinning. There is so much info to absorb and of course so many different opinions. It's hard to know what to do


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Minelson said:


> I don't know if she was fed dog food. I just remember the seller telling me I could feed her any grain or even dog food. That is when I knew she was coming home with me. And I had no clue...but I knew it was wrong and I could give her a better life. Enen thoug I had no fencing. And that is how the free ranging began


Michele, your lovely Gretta has had a most wonderful life with you - probably the best life of any goaties I know. 

We've all come to love your animals through your pics, videos, and posts. Frankie and Gretta have been my favorites - until PonyBoy came along, of course.

Still, no matter the outcome of this nightmare, you can always know that you saved Gretta from a miserable life, and you shared her with us, which spread that unique "Gretta-joy" all around.

It is just so cosmically sad, and I wish I was there to give you a huge box of wine and a hug.


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

Glad she feels better today. I have been on Pred my whole like and my liver is fine. Once she's stable I would see what the smallestdose you can maintain her on is. I also look at it this way. You can't bring her back once she's put down to try new drugs but if she's still around and you have tried all the options and she starts to loose her quality of life you can then end her suffering. Concentrate on keeping her comfortable while doing some research. My vet has Chrohns disease, anklyosing spondylitis,and IBS. He is also the happiest guy I know. He takes coconut oil daily to help his gut. He is also a life long Pred user. I'm pretty sure if you asked him he would not want to be put down. Wait until you HAVE to do it. Hang in there hon we're all here for you.


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## SherrieC (Aug 24, 2002)

Sorry to hear about Greta : (


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Here is one of my favorite pictures of her. She is just glowing with happiness!


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Nothing i can.find supports the justification of putting her down becausr of the unreliable testing. Please get a blood test. I had the results in 3 days


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## Strange Bear (May 13, 2002)

Glad to hear she is doing a little better. I can see why she would be glowing with pride.
(Picture does make me glad that we don't have to clean our children with our tongues!)


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Minelson said:


> Gretta is doing better today. The Dex and Thiamine must have helped. I wonder how long you can keep a goat on Dex before the liver fails.


All the knowledgable people here have left me with nothing to add to help you.
But about the dex, I might have some information to offer, although not goatie.
My horse Tessie developed a chewing problem (I mentioned it awhole back,) and the vet put her on a course of dex. It seemed to clear up the problem right away.
Then about 2 months later, she developed general neurological problems. So the vet put her on the 10 day dex course again but then to continue the low dose every other day (just squirted into the mouth- ha no shots). The vet said she can stay on this a long time. Indefinitely since it loooks like she has an untreatable condition.

I know horses are not goats but maybe the same?


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## Manchamom (May 18, 2003)

Don't know if she had it or not but, did you know that animals that have had their CL vaccine cross-react on the Johne's test causing a false positive?
Hope you all figure it out.


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## momagoat61 (Mar 30, 2008)

Thats wonderful that Gretta is doing better today..She is interested in eating today as well? Keep a look out for Gretta's Package, She's got a little something coming her way!!!


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Manchamom said:


> Don't know if she had it or not but, did you know that animals that have had their CL vaccine cross-react on the Johne's test causing a false positive?
> Hope you all figure it out.


No I didn't do the CL vaccine. But maybe someone snuck one in her. (wishful thinking)

I guess the next step is to continue the Dex/thiamine/tetracycline
Get a blood test done to confirm Johnes
Look into other possible anti-biotics

Since the negative test result is unreliable I don't see any reason to test the other goats. 

Just trying to organize my thoughts


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Hang in there- it's hard when the rug is snatched out from under your feet. It takes a bit to get your balance again.


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## Manchamom (May 18, 2003)

Here's an anti-microbal map for Johne's and some info.
ANTIMICROBIAL THERAPY - JOHNE'S INFORMATION CENTER


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

I'm so sorry


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Just got a call from one of the many vets that I have been working with to figure this out. I told him about the positive test and he said that the PCR test can find a needle in a haystack. Very reliable. He suggested that I take her to South Dakota State University and have them put her down and do a necropsy to be 100% sure. So I guess that means that the test is not 100% reliable. Right? Grrrr...


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Maybe you should ask about the percentage of error and in what direction the error occurs. Some tests may have an error in negatives and others in positives.
I just had anEPM test done on my mare. One of those tests with a possible error. But always in the possitive direction. A postitive has a small chance of be wrong but a negative means that there is virtually no change of having EPM.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Cannon_Farms said:


> Nothing i can.find supports the justification of putting her down becausr of the unreliable testing. Please get a blood test. I had the results in 3 days


The test that was done is the most accurate by far. Not only did it grow (was viable from it's source) but the PCR confirmation eliminates a 'false positive' result. PCR means DNA was used to confirm that the bacteria growing was johnes disease and not something else. 

You COULD do a PCR on a fecal and find Johnes DNA WITHOUT infection - say, in the case of calves recieving positive milk. They'd be shedding the DNA but *MIGHT* not infected/actively shedding the bacteria as it reproduces in their gut. BUT - in this case of a calf recieving positive milk, there is DNA but the culture would probably not grow (would be negative). Wait about 2 years, and there's a good chance that calf WOULD be johnes fecal culture positive, though. And ELISA positive, possibly as young as a year of age.

At this point in Gretta's life, she IS shedding the bacterium. That is confirmed by being able to culture (grow) Johnes from the feces. Once 'something' is growing in the culture, a PCR test is ran to check for the DNA for Johnes disease. DNA positives are about as accurate as you could ever ask for, especially in combination with a positive culture.

You have more of an issue with NEGATIVES - usually false negatives occur because the animal is not shedding the bacterium at the time of fecal collection. This is where the importance of retesting is based upon. 

Blood tests are far less indicitive of infection than a fecal culture. They simply show antibodies - which are indicative of EXPOSURE but not necessarily active infection. They are, however, fast - and exposure results can make you decide wether or not to do further, more accurate testing.


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## mahnah (May 29, 2012)

Minelson, I had to read through the whole thread and kept hoping for the miracle of her being cured and you being at ease and happy despite the horrid scare. I see it is more of she seems to be doing better and you get to figure out what to do. 

Personally we all have our opinions, and I want to say to trust your heart. You will know when it is more loving to hold her and let her move on or to hold her and help her be able to play and live happily despite meds etc. Dont take all your goaties to the bridge they are happy and living a wonderful life loving you. Will send lots of healing energies Gretta's way and hope that it all works out for the best for all of you. 
I wish I had some wonderful enlightened gift of knowledge that would make this all go away. I will continue to light candles and ask all the spirits to help heal Gretta as well as your heart.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Mygoat, I don't think the test was cultured...it was just PCR. Does that make sense? I sent it in on the 17th and got the results on the 25th. Is that long enough for a culture to grow?


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## Manchamom (May 18, 2003)

Sounds like they used direct PCR which looks for genetic material not living bacteria. So your next step is to make them grow out the culture to ensure that the MAP type DNA they found is truely living Johne's.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Also, Pony and Tinker have been moved out of the main barn and back into the nursery. That doesn't help though with gazzillion goat berries that are everywhere on the property.  I wonder how long it lives in the soil. 
I also find it strange that I read that Johnes doesn't show symptoms until 2-3 years after exposure. Gretta would have been exposed before I owned her which would have been at least 5 years ago.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I'm sorry about Your Goat. I'm posting in here because someone brought up people meds. 
My Vet writes scripts for our dogs off of the walmarts 4 dollar list. My old Guy took Meloxican(anti-inflamority) instead of Novox/Rymadal. He took 1/2 a tab once a day,so that script lasted 2 months.My younger girl is takeing it now for broken bones in her paw.
Just thought you would like to know. Best of Luck.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Hmmm, I didn't know places offered a direct PCR test, with no culture. 

Though, I would still say there's a good chance she IS positive. She's likely not currently ingesting tons of johnes at this stage in her life - usually it's injested as young goat kids 'mouth' things (like feces...) or as goat kids (or calves, or what-have-you) nurse infected dams. In those cases, yes you will see them shed the DNA of the organism directly from their feces but are not shedding it themselves (as in, the bacteria is not replicating in their bodies, or if they are it's in small amounts). But in Gretta's case - adult goats avoid eating feces like the plague, and the MAP would have to be coming from *somewhere* even if she was JUST ingesting it... Therefore, there is still a good chance the DNA is coming FROM her. 

If you'd like reassurance, you can get a culture done. I'd send to a lab that does culture with PCR confirmation on any that go positive. (call lab you choose to make sure they confirm all positives with PCR) I would do a *normal* culture - not pooled or accellerated - which takes anywhere from 10-45 days to turn positive. Usually animals will go positive at 21 days along if they're going to. The fastest sample we've ever seen go positive here at DCPAH was at 11 days. It was from a goat. Several goats in that group turned positive FAST.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Thank you Dona


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## Manchamom (May 18, 2003)

There is a very slim hope that a grown culture may show different. 
The MAP bacteria is very very closely related to the MAH bacteria, they are both Psuedotuberculosis and both Mycoplasma.
MAH lives freely in our water sources. It is literally everywhere even in domestic drinking water, ponds, lakes, and creeks.
If they jumped the gun on seeing MAH and said positive because of her symptoms, having them grow the culture will double check them. 

Like I said, it's a very slim hope.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I do not trust the test results. Where should I go from here.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

get a blood and fecal done on all of them one so you can know on all of them


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I'm afraid to do anything normal. Like eat a real meal or take a shower or watch TV or read. It seems like if I do any of those things it will desensitize things or something weird like that  :Bawling::Bawling:


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

She looks uncomfortable tonight.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Oh, Michelle....Darlin'....I'm sending all the love an' hugs an' good vibes I can tonight.


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## 65284 (Sep 17, 2003)

Sorry about Greta. I have not real all of this thread, sorry if this has already been discussed. 

Was the test a blood test? Johnes blood tests are notorious for false positives, my vet said never to trust one completely, a fecal culture is the only sure method to test for this disease. I almost disposed of a very good Dexter bull over a false positive blood test.

I would strongly suggest that before you put anything down have a fecal culture test done.

Good luck


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## Manchamom (May 18, 2003)

Here's the different kinds of tests
. Organism-based tests. There are two types of these assays: (1) Culture, which isolates the living organism itself from manure, tissue or environmental samples and (2) PCR, which looks for the MAP genetic material from living or dead MAP primarily in manure samples. 
1.Culture: A sample submitted for culture is monitored for seven weeks or longer because MAP is a very slow growing organism. If the sample is heavily contaminated with MAP, a positive result may be detected in a week or two, but it can take two months of incubation or more until the lab feels confident that no MAP organisms are present and can report a &#8220;culture negative&#8221; result. 
a.Culture is effective for testing adults of any species (manure or tissue samples). 
b.Environmental samples (soil, water, grass, etc.) may also be tested by culture
c.Pooling of manure samples 
i.This approach reduces the cost of a herd test 
ii.Individual samples are collected, then the laboratory mixes the samples (usually 5 samples per pool, 1 pool per culture).
iii.If a pool is test positive, the 5 animals contributing to the pool are then tested individually to find which one(s) are shedding (positive for) MAP.
2.PCR: 
a.Direct PCR. This test is used for manure samples from adult goats. The assay looks for MAP&#8217;s genetic material only instead of the living organism. Most labs provide a result in less than a week. The sensitivity of culture and PCR are believed to be generally comparable, although culture may perform a bit better depending on the length of culture incubation. 
b.Paraffin block PCR. When tissues are collected at a necropsy, they are fixed with formalin and embedded in paraffin to be examined microscopically. The pathologist is looking for damage to the tissues and for MAP itself within cells. Your veterinarian can request a PCR test on a portion of the paraffin block. 
c.Culture isolate PCR identification &#8211; many labs use a type of PCR to confirm that the organism isolated during culture is actually MAP vs. one of its closely-related cousins.

Here's a list of approved labs. You want one aproved for solid media testing to do the culture isolate PCR identification. It takes abot 6 to 8 weeks to grow the culture.
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/lab_info_services/downloads/ApprovedLabs_Johnes_organism.pdf


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Manchamom said:


> Here's the different kinds of tests
> . Organism-based tests. There are two types of these assays: (1) Culture, which isolates the living organism itself from manure, tissue or environmental samples and (2) PCR, which looks for the MAP genetic material from living or dead MAP primarily in manure samples.
> 1.Culture: A sample submitted for culture is monitored for seven weeks or longer because MAP is a very slow growing organism. If the sample is heavily contaminated with MAP, a positive result may be detected in a week or two, but it can take two months of incubation or more until the lab feels confident that no MAP organisms are present and can report a âculture negativeâ result.
> a.Culture is effective for testing adults of any species (manure or tissue samples).
> ...


This is very helpful. Thank you


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

I just got back in from Kansas, picked up my computer, went directly here, and this is the first thread I opened.

It was a long drive, and my Grandmama Joyce is....not as good as she was in August. Every time I go to see her, I spend the entire drive home trying to think up ways to make it viable to bring her to live with me, and nothing every comes up. ~sighs~

Then, I open this. My heart breaks all over again.

But, I can at least give *direction* in this. Unlike trying to figure out how to make an 85 year old woman who is wheelchair bound and has advanced osteoporosis comfortable and happy on a farm that is half broken down right now. I am at a loss with my own loved ones, but maybe I can help here.

Michelle, what you want is a full MAP culture, WITH PRC done after the MAP cultures positive, WITH the blood test. And get two of those done at two different labs.

While waiting on those to culture, and they will take a while, have one of your vets get Gretta started on pred. Pred dopes not impair liver function. Keep Gretta on the Probiotics, and mix any "soup" you make with a tablespoon of active yogurt. 

Finish up the antibiotic regimen that was prescribed, then when it is done, switch to an immune booster regimen. By that time, the antibiotic will have knocked down all of the bacteria they are going to knock down, and she needs her immune system built up as much as possible.

Consider ringers to get glucose into her system. She needs energy to fight.

Remember when I said that as long as there is life, there is hope? Well, as long as Gretta is still willing to fight, we will give her all the help we can, right?

I don't have much of a brain tonight (lack of sleep in a hotel room right next to the heated, indoor pool that had festival goers in it all night, followed by a long drive back will do it to me.), but start researching what is used as immune boosters for AIDs patients. 

Did that test the vet gave her show a white blood cell count? I don't remember? ~sighs~ If it didn't, might do a white blood cell count on her to see if her count is high (showing immune system response) or normal to low (showing lack of response).

I love you. I love Gretta. Anything I can do to help, I will.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

WBC 14,550

She has energy. She is not lethargic at all. She almost seems like she is on speed. Eyes wide open. Unsatisfied. This started before the Dex. I have another dose and if she is wobbly tomorrow I will give it to her and call for more. 
Thanks everyone for helping me get a game plan together. 
I don't want to put her through the wringer...I won't do that. Her comfort is my #1 priority. Also waiting on hubby to get home.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Her immune system is responding then, and she is fighting this as best as she can.


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## Manchamom (May 18, 2003)

For the blood tests here is the approved lab list for that.
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/lab_info_services/downloads/ApprovedLabs_Johnes_serology.pdf

Thanks Caliann, my plain english wasn't working...


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Manchamom said:


> For the blood tests here is the approved lab list for that.
> http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/lab_info_services/downloads/ApprovedLabs_Johnes_serology.pdf
> 
> Thanks Caliann, my plain english wasn't working...


Worked for me and that is saying a lot!


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

She won't lay down. Every time I check my barn cam she is standing up...swaying. I can't remember the last time I saw her laying down. She is still chewing cud


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## 65284 (Sep 17, 2003)

Minelson, take this for what it's worth, which I suspect is nothing.

I have a book, Natural Cattle Care, written by Pat Coleby, an Aussie lady. She has, what I consider to be some other rather strange ideas. Among those ideas, she claims she has cured goats of Johnes with minerals, seaweed, and massive injections of several different vitamins. 

I don't really believe it, but just thought I would throw it out there.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Minelson said:


> She won't lay down. Every time I check my barn cam she is standing up...swaying. I can't remember the last time I saw her laying down. She is still chewing cud


If she lays down can she get up on her own? Or does she need help? Just thinking if it's hard for her to get up she may not want to lay down? I don't know just guessing. Maybe she's more comfortable standing? 
I sure wish there was more I could do for you & Gretta. I just don't have any ideas other than what some of the others have said. 
When Dh gets home he'll help you sort everything out.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

She is laying down now...


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

CaliannG said:


> Michelle, what you want is a full MAP culture, WITH PRC done after the MAP cultures positive, WITH the blood test. And get two of those done at two different labs.


2 blood tests at 2 different labs or 2 of everything at 2 different labs?

And I'm sorry about your troubles with Grandmama  Maybe you should just bring her home and just deal with the obstacles of being wheelchair bound as they arise. (((hugs))))


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Gretta is a little more wobbly today...not shaking though which surprises me because it's only 22 degrees out. 
I gave the dose of Dex and Thiamine.
500mg Tetracycline
Fortified Vit B
65 mg Iron
Probios


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## "SPIKE" (Dec 7, 2011)

I am so very sorry to read this. I wish you all the best with this crisis.
I have no experience with Johnes, but I have read this thread and it seems to me that you need to do further testing to be positive so you can make wise decisions. I feel bad for all of you at your place.





Minelson said:


> I'm afraid to do anything normal. Like eat a real meal or take a shower or watch TV or read. It seems like if I do any of those things it will desensitize things or something weird like that  :Bawling::Bawling:


Now let's talk about the above statement! (Read in your best crotchety ole biker dude voice!) DO NOT FORGET TO TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF! Make things as normal as possible. You have too many depending on you to fall apart!
I do say this with all the compassion possible! Don't make me want to come up there!:hammer: :kiss:

SPIKE


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Minelson said:


> Gretta is a little more wobbly today...not shaking though which surprises me because it's only 22 degrees out.
> I gave the dose of Dex and Thiamine.
> 500mg Tetracycline
> Fortified Vit B
> ...


Didn't her coat get there yet? I hope it comes today since it's getting so cold.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Backfourty said:


> Didn't her coat get there yet? I hope it comes today since it's getting so cold.


Hopefully it wil come today..mail should be here in an hour or so..thank you so much!


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Minelson said:


> I'm afraid to do anything normal. Like eat a real meal or take a shower or watch TV or read. It seems like if I do any of those things it will desensitize things or something weird like that  :Bawling::Bawling:


Maybe it would do you a world of good if you could do something like watch a TV show or read a little bit, try & relax. Thank goodness Dh will be home tomorrow & you'll have him there to lean on.


I sure hope the box came. I mailed it Tuesday Priority mail & I thought the PO lady told me 2-3 days.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

The small animal vet clinic where I work, the wife just called me. It's a husband & wife vet team. She was just checking on me. You see I did this Johnes testing on my own but I did through the clinic where I work. So they got the results before I did because I was off that day. The husband called me with the bad news and I fell a part on the phone. When he got the results he called the lab and asked a bunch of questions before calling me. He is under the impression that the test is reliable and Gretta has this disease. I was kinda afraid to tell them that I want to retest. They roll their eyes at me on some of the stuff I do. When I told her I wanted to retest she said ABSOLUTELY! That really made me feel good I started crying again. I can't explain why, but having their support is really helpful for my psyche. Then she offered to come do chores for me. It's a little embarassing when your bosses know you are such a mess that chores might not be getting done. I thanked her and told her that I got it handled. Very heartwarming phone call.
AND...I just received a box from Katie (Backfourty)! It has a perfect goat coat in it for Gretta. A bunch of her home made soap and halloween treats for Hubby, the goats and me!! How special and sweet is that?! 
And all the support and thoughts and prayers here...I am really feeling blessed


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Calianne, Can you please clarify the testing I should do in post # 137??


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## momagoat61 (Mar 30, 2008)

Ms. Gretta's gonna be warmmm, because she's gotta another coat in route from TN:  LOL


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

OH, I didn't see that post somehow!

What you want to do is send a blood and fecal sample to two different labs. For example, say you decide to use WADDL and TAMU labs.

Send WADDL a fecal sample and a red-top tube. Tell them you want the ELISA test done on the blood, a full MAP done on the fecal, with a PRC done after the MAP has cultured.

Send TAMU a fecal sample and a red-top tube. Tell them you want the ELISA test done on the blood, a full MAP done on the fecal, with a PRC done after the MAP has cultured.

Compare results you get from each lab. 

Did that make sense?

And thank you for your well wishes for Grandmama. It's not that I mind the extra work at all. It's that all of my doorways are narrow and a wheelchair won't go through them, that I can't lift her myself so I would need to get the special lift for her so that she could use the restroom and have a bath which would also not fit through the doorways, and that I would need to build a ramp to get her in and out of the house. It's not SAFE for her here yet. It wouldn't do any good to bring her down here just to have an accident happen in the first day and her having something broken. That would bring her needless suffering.

Mom is thinking of her house, but she has some of the same problems with the added problem of a lack of room. We could get a bedroom for her, but the bathroom would have to be completely torn out and remodeled so that a wheelchair and a lift would fit in there.

 Our houses are not wheelchair or lift friendly. We are actually thinking of a new house....if we could get one built in time.

~sighs~


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Yikes! I never thought of doorways! I'm sorry...I hope you can figure it out and keep her safe. I wonder if there are any elderly/disabled organizations/programs that could help you out. You should start a thread on this. I bet we could all brainstorm and maybe help with ideas. 

I get it now on the tests...thanks for clarifying. I'm a little foggy


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I am giving Gretta her antibiotics along with probiotics. I'm wondering if that is a good thing. I wonder if I should do the probiotics a few hours later maybe. It just seemed weird to me as I was mixing up her cocktail Probiotics with anti biotics...wouldn't that just cancel everything out?


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

When giving antibiotics I try to wait 8-12hrs then give probiotics.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Antibiotics in the morning, and probiotics at night, or vice versa.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Oh great  Does that mean that she hasn't been getting the benefit of the anitbiotics all along. I'm more than 1/2 way through the script  swearing


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

No, it means that she hasn't been getting the benefit of probiotics all along. Antibiotics kill off bad and good bacteria. So, when you feed probiotics, you are trying to replace JUST the good bacteria that the antibiotics kills off. By mixing them together, the probiotics get pre-killed.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

ok...it's amazing that she is still alive. I'm doing the best I can :Bawling:


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

~hugs~ Easy, honey, easy. Take a deep breath. Exhale. Take another. Exhale.

Okay, now you know. Why don't you just tell us *exactly* what you have been doing, and the times you have been doing it, and we'll see if there are any other mishaps that can be so easily corrected, hmmm? We all can only do the best we know how to do, so we'll all think together on this, okay?

Now, you HAVE been mixing the antibiotics with the probiotics. Now you know to give them separately, and at different times. What else is she getting daily? You might see a big improvement just from changing when you give the probiotics.

What is your current schedule and when does the antibiotic run end?


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

momagoat61 said:


> Ms. Gretta's gonna be warmmm, because she's gotta another coat in route from TN:  LOL


Now she'll just have a change of clothes(coats) so she can stay fashionable


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## ani's ark (May 12, 2012)

I'm chiming in a bit late here Minelson, but I just wanted to say I'm praying Gretta can recover from this. You never know until you try. 
You are being a champ giving her the best care and doing all your research, and everyone here has got your back.


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

Hon. as stressed out as you are dont worry or blame yourself about the timing of probiotic/antibiotic.
In crisis mode it's impossible to think.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

CaliannG said:


> What is your current schedule and when does the antibiotic run end?


Ok...thanks to Tallabred I have been keeping a journal. Things changed the past couple of days because I thought she was going to be put to sleep. so why torment her with drenches and shots. But I'm back on schedule now. 

Before diagnosis
AM. 500mg Tetracycline, 5-10 grams probios, warm water mixed with a dab of molasses, 65 mg Iron. All in one 12cc syringe but only 6-8 cc's total cocktail.
3+ cc's Fortified Vit B injection
Whole oats and Boss mixed with DYNO and hand fed.
Lots of alfalfa...the best you can buy..nice and green and leafy. 

PM. Same minus the Iron and Fortified Vit B. Sometimes she eats the oats and boss sometimes she doesn't She ALWAYS scarfs down the alfalfa. 

Now I have stopped the Boss and Oats from what I have read about Crohns disease and what Cliff had posted here in reference to grain and Johnes. 

Tonight I gave her the 500 mg Tetracycline with a dab of molasse in warm water in a 12 cc syringe. That's it. Maybe I should give her some Probios in the middle of the night??


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

And just to add to the stress. Mama D came in limping tonight. Rocky is going to town on a hot spot on his leg. I got a letter from the IRS that we owe over $3000 for an error on our 2010 taxes. >sigh< I surrender.


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## Lovin' FarmLife (Sep 14, 2009)

You have had difficult times before, this too shall pass. 
Sometimes I just say outloud, "Why not?!?!" and laugh...sometimes that is all you can do  chin up


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Here is my barn cam if anyone is interested. I know I post this alot...It's just been so helpful with so many things 

http://minelson.dyndns-office.com:8090/
Firefox users:
Click on 2nd Login Button&#8230;goes to next page
User Name: visitor
password: visitor
Go to upper left corner and click on Live Video

Internet Explorer users:
Username: visitor
Password: visitor
Click on login
Live Video in left hand upper corner
If you just get a black screen with a little square or red X&#8230;try clicking on the refresh video button over on the left.


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## momagoat61 (Mar 30, 2008)

So you are given the Tetracycline orally, is that correct? If this was me, which it ain't, but I would be given a whole lot more of the Fort Vit B, like 3 times as much, twice a day. I have given up to 10 to 12 cc per side to treat goat Polio every 4 to 6 hrs for several days. 3cc for even a mini like Gretta isn't much once aday...


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

momagoat61 said:


> So you are given the Tetracycline orally, is that correct? If this was me, which it ain't, but I would be given a whole lot more of the Fort Vit B, like 3 times as much, twice a day. I have given up to 10 to 12 cc per side to treat goat Polio every 4 to 6 hrs for several days. 3cc for even a mini like Gretta isn't much once aday...


I'm injecting it SQ. I read 4 cc's per hundred pounds and she is at #57. Maybe even less now. She has also gotten Dex and Thiamine. I am not sure of the dosage since it was vet administered and he left me a dose that I gave her today. The other dose was Thurs and seemed to help her throughout Fri. Today she seemed Neurologic again so I gave it.
Maybe I should Up the Fortified vitamin B? She takes it much better injected than orally. She hates it.


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## momagoat61 (Mar 30, 2008)

Sorry I didn't read where she was give the Dexamethsone and the pure vet prescrip of thiamine. I would up the over the count Fort vit B once the pure thiamine that was given by the vet run its cource. Don't think Dex is supose to be give more then three days and each day they are weaned off of it.. When my Sissy was sick with cystic overo problem 3 years ago my vet gave me 3 syringes, day one was 3cc, day 2 was 2cc and the last day was 1cc.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

momagoat61 said:


> Sorry I didn't read where she was give the Dexamethsone and the pure vet prescrip of thiamine. I would up the over the count Fort vit B once the pure thiamine that was given by the vet run its cource. Don't think Dex is supose to be give more then three days and each day they are weaned off of it.. When my Sissy was sick with cystic overo problem 3 years ago my vet gave me 3 syringes, day one was 3cc, day 2 was 2cc and the last day was 1cc.


Not your fault! I don't know how anyone can keep all this strait. I don't even know what day it is


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## dunroven (Dec 6, 2004)

I know this is all very tough for you. And the news from the IRS. Those bums. That's news you can always do without. How is Gretta doing tonight? I hope she's hanging in there. When will hubby be home?


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Okay, you are no longer making the cocktails. Also, you are well out of your mind with worry and grief.

AM: Give her her tetracycline. Plus the 3 cc B-Vitamins. Are her eyelids pale? If so, continue the 65 of iron. If not, discontinue it. Give her alfalfa and the handful of BOSS for fat, and dress with DYNO.

PM: Give the probiotic, as well as another 3 cc B-Vitamins. If you can get more thiamine, give her that every evening until she improves. More alfalfa, as well as the handful of BOSS for fat, and DYNO.

Keep that going for one week AFTER the antibiotic run has finished, and re-assess.

Now, more deep breaths. Can you agree with that plan?


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

dunroven said:


> I know this is all very tough for you. And the news from the IRS. Those bums. That's news you can always do without. How is Gretta doing tonight? I hope she's hanging in there. When will hubby be home?


She is doing "ok" she is eating/drinking. She is isolating though and hardly grazed today. The Dex and Thiamine really seems to help to stabilize. But she is really in rough shape to me...even though I know it could be so much worse. My poor mama goat  I thought Hubby was going to be home tomorrow night. But the last message I got from him earlier today is that he is flying out of Johannesburg "tomorrow night" But right now it is Sunday 3:47 AM there. I can't figure it out but that is ok. We shall just wait.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

CaliannG said:


> Okay, you are no longer making the cocktails. Also, you are well out of your mind with worry and grief.
> 
> AM: Give her her tetracycline. Plus the 3 cc B-Vitamins. Are her eyelids pale? If so, continue the 65 of iron. If not, discontinue it. Give her alfalfa and the handful of BOSS for fat, and dress with DYNO.
> 
> ...


I can agree with that but question the BOSS because what I read about seeds being hard on Crhons patients. 
Here eyelids are pale. She is anemic. I have her blood test posted somewhere on this thread. Also I did a urine stick and posted those. 
I can get more Thiamine. Monday at the latest. Should I mix the Tetracyclyne with the Dyno to get that into her? Or just drench it maybe with the probios. 
I am a cocktail gal in the sense that if I can get what is needed into them in one shot/dose I'm going to do that. I now know I must be more careful with that. The stress of medicating is the worst part of the day.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

BOSS is fine: Spinach & Sunflower Seed Diet For Crohn's | LIVESTRONG.COM

I cannot think of anything in the Dyno that shouldn't be mixed with tetracycline, so you can go ahead and cocktail antibiotic and dyno in the morning, and probiotics and dyno in the evening.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

CaliannG said:


> BOSS is fine: Spinach & Sunflower Seed Diet For Crohn's | LIVESTRONG.COM
> 
> I cannot think of anything in the Dyno that shouldn't be mixed with tetracycline, so you can go ahead and cocktail antibiotic and dyno in the morning, and probiotics and dyno in the evening.


The vet told me 500 mgs of the Tetracycline in the am and another 500mg at night. Maybe skip the probiotics in the PM and do a dose in the early afternoon of Probios and then do Dyno and tetracyclyne at night?


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## momagoat61 (Mar 30, 2008)

OK i'm gonna ask what is DYNO? I know what DYNE is and purchased a gal of it years,years ago as a supplement for my kids and they loved it.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

It's is Dyne..sorry! Dyne High Calorie Liquid Dietary Supplement -- 16 oz.. $9.99.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Would the Bovi-Sera be a good immune booster to use after the antibiotics are gone?


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## Shygal (May 26, 2003)

Ive been reading this and keeping up with your and Grettas fight, and I just want to give you a big hug :awh:


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Just got a call from David. I could hear him but he couldn't hear me at all. He is stuck in Africa due to hurricanes or something. He is having trouble getting on line to send messages :Bawling:


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

OK, you've hit the magic number three whammies. Things will improve now.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

He just called again and was able to get through. He said they are telling him it might not be until Wednesday that he will get out.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I can tell you are really a good juggler- I can't keep track of everything that you're having to do. Hat's off to you.
Still keeping you and Gretta at the top of my "good vib" list.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

If you are doing antibiotics morning and night, then yes, probiotics in the afternoon. When does the antibiotic run end? Once it is done, steal a cud from someone for her.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

CaliannG said:


> If you are doing antibiotics morning and night, then yes, probiotics in the afternoon. When does the antibiotic run end? Once it is done, steal a cud from someone for her.


I have 10 pills left..but should have 12. 2 of them got ruined during administration. :ashamed:


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

So, in 5 days, steal a cud, and give her one heck of a probiotic run.

The Nuflor plus the tetra runs have likely depleted her flora considerably....so once the antibiotics are done, you will need to work to build that flora back up.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I have been giving her probios daily for about a week or so after the Nuflor. Hopefully that helped.


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## mrs.H (Mar 6, 2003)

I think you should write a children's book about gretta! With her story and the love of friends here, I'm sure it would be a favorite of Mommies and children everywhere!


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

mrs.H said:


> I think you should write a children's book about gretta! With her story and the love of friends here, I'm sure it would be a favorite of Mommies and children everywhere!


I don't think I would be too good at that. I'm not human children experienced at all. I did send a story book to my nephew that had a goat in it and he really liked it  Maybe I should tell you all the Gretta stories and you turn it into a childrens book. If I wrote it it would probably be R rated


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I have this...Vita Charge Paste - 80 mL
with shipping it was about $30. I emailed the company for a product without selenium and they said this would be great for her. Pre-biotics. Which means that it super powers the good flora that is already there. Maybe something to use down the road..


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I have some Pred on hand...20mg tablets. Prednisone not Prednisolone. I'm wondering if I should add that with the FVBC but I have no clue what the dosage would be. I have a feeling she will need it for tomorrow since I will not be able to talk to the vet (by myself not as planned) until tomorrow afternoon. It amazes me. So many times I have read the horribly sad stories on here of someone just finding their goat dead. And Gretta just keeps chugging on. Just goes to show there are all different goats just like all different people. Every time I walk outside I think I will find her dead. Then I can't find her. Then I look all over. Then she just pops up out of nowhere running up to me in her new wobbly fashion looking for treats....but does not want them. She just loves the routine.


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## JBarGFarmKeeper (Nov 1, 2011)

Minelson said:


> I have this...Vita Charge Paste - 80 mL
> with shipping it was about $30. I emailed the company for a product without selenium and they said this would be great for her. Pre-biotics. Which means that it super powers the good flora that is already there. Maybe something to use down the road..


This is a GREAT product! Made by the same company as the Sure Champ.


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## Clovers_Clan (Jul 17, 2012)

> Then she just pops up out of nowhere running up to me in her new wobbly fashion looking for treats....but does not want them. She just loves the routine.


That made me cry. She obviously loves you very much. And it sounds like she still really loves life and hasn't given up.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Please keep in mind all the processed vitamins and minerals and the products they are made with have to be ran through the liver and kidneys which can and will add stress to them. Right now Im not even sure if I would offer dyne if she was mine. If shes eating alfalfa well then I would leave it at that until further testing can be done. Her system has been through quite a bit and unfortunately they dont have a reset button.
Of course this is nothing more than my opinion, Im still feeling its a mineral toxicity. I explain that being her advanced age vrs the buildup that the younger ones may not have so they might not present with any symptoms. Younger things handle things a lot better than the old folks.

In the biggest situations the KISS method tends to be the best one.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Ok, I'm not a texter & no human kids so I gotta ask what does KISS stand for?


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

KISS- Keep it simple stupid

I keep checking on here and FB for Gretta updates. I really would re-test her and test the rest. It is an awful feeling when you get what feels like a death sentence on your animal. 
Keep your head up even though it is hard.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

I don't have any problem with the Vita Charge, EXCEPT THAT you wish to avoid selenium.

The Vita Charge contains Sodium Selenite, which is selenium, just bonded to sodium instead of amino acids. Therefore, since the site doesn't say HOW MUCH is in it, I don't know if it has more or less selenium than the Replamin.


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## mrs.H (Mar 6, 2003)

Backfourty said:


> Ok, I'm not a texter & no human kids so I gotta ask what does KISS stand for?


Keep it simple sweety


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

mrs.H said:


> Keep it simple sweety


Your too nice Mrs H. But thaiblue is probably right when it comes to KISS & me. I feel a little dense sometimes but we all know I'm not afraid to ask dumb questions now.

I love thai though so it's OK!


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I was just translating not assigning that to anyone, especially not you Katie  
I text a lot I just never use that I am more of an omg, lol, idk kind of a person


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## Ford Zoo (Jan 27, 2012)

I have no information to offer other than lots of support and thoughts being sent your way. Give Gretta a hug for me too.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Dont anyone think i was calling anyone else stupid its just my modo but i replace stupid with silly for myself


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## Strange Bear (May 13, 2002)

Just a thought or question. Can goats have overactive thyroids?
Has Gretta been tested?


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Strange Bear said:


> Just a thought or question. Can goats have overactive thyroids?
> Has Gretta been tested?


No one has brought up thyroid...I'll have to ask about that.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Vet is coming out tomorrow to draw blood and collect stool samples for re-testing. He is also going to have a Prednisone or Dex therapy plan. I gave her 20 mgs of Pred last night and again today at 1pm. 
She is doing ok. Not grazing at all though. Will only eat Alfalfa. Does not want BOSS. She prefers to just lay in the sun but she looks bright eyed and content. 
Vet will also look at Mama-D's lameness. But she is pretty much walking on it normal now. I think she just strained it chasing after the super crazy baby Gray-C.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Look how little she is...  she used to be bigger than Flossie and just a bit smaller than Frankie (the tank o.m.g.)


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

Minelson, is your hubby home yet? I am so anxious for you to have some kind, human support for yourself to lean on. thinking of you often!


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

cathleenc said:


> Minelson, is your hubby home yet? I am so anxious for you to have some kind, human support for yourself to lean on. thinking of you often!


No  He was supposed to be home yesterday but is stuck in Africa because of some hurricane!
So far it's looking like Thurs before he will get home.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Ok, Id look skinny next to those two. She really doesnt look that bad, if you look back to the Nubian I pulled with the Saanens a few months back now that was way too thin. She looks about like most of mine.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

cathleenc said:


> Minelson, is your hubby home yet? I am so anxious for you to have some kind, human support for yourself to lean on. thinking of you often!


I did go to work this morning for 4 hours. It felt tense though. Maybe I'm just being paranoid.


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## mpwithem (Oct 25, 2012)

This was one of the first threads I read when I tried to decide whether I wanted to be active on this forum. Wanted to tell you I'm keeping you and little Gretta in my thoughts! Such a terrible thing to have to happen to her!


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Cannon_Farms said:


> Ok, Id look skinny next to those two. She really doesnt look that bad, if you look back to the Nubian I pulled with the Saanens a few months back now that was way too thin. She looks about like most of mine.


If you could put your hands on her you would be shocked. She is all bone and hair. Feeling her reminds me of how my Shep felt when I put my hands on him when he was almost 18. Actually she is worse than that. And she is eating. Frankie and Flossie are disgustingly proof of that. But Gretta eats more when she eats in a group. I am trying to get as much protein in her as possible. She is loosing protein and she is anemic and the best way to fix that is with rich, heavenly alfalfa. Which I found. I am feeding her seperately too. but in order to keep the alf in front of her others are getting it too and it is causing problems. That is another one of the big reasons I moved the babies. Pony is an alf vacuum.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Minelson, I don't have any advice, I haven't been saying much, but I've been following this thread and thinking of you and Gretta.


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## Sherry in Iowa (Jan 10, 2010)

Hey Minelson..I wonder if the sprouts would help Greta? On one of the websites I was on they touted them for their "healing" properties.


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## tickranch (Jan 6, 2007)

I just wanted to let you know my whole family has been following yours and Gretta's struggles. We cried too when the tests results came back and we are so glad you are going to have her retested. You and all your animals are in our thoughts. ( luv the names mama-d and grey-c) 

please remember to take care of yourself. Eat more kale, maybe Gretta would like some too.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

David just called...He is in Atlanta!!!! :dance: He caught a flight out of Africa direct to Atlanta on a different airline ($2000.00 :shocked
He should be home around 2pm!!:happy::happy::happy:


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## CJBegins (Nov 20, 2009)

Oh now that is WONDERFUL news!!!!!! I am so glad he will be home soon.


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## BethW (May 3, 2007)

Yayyy! I'd like to personally apologize that our east coast hurricane kept him from you for so long.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Vet just left with blood and poop samples to send in. We have started Gretta on 20mgs of Prednisone twice a day. Also the thiamine (which I have on order) I will use the Fortified B Complex until it comes in. She is looking MUCH better today. 
So now all we can do is wait and keep Gretta feeling as good as possible. She is not a candidate to be put down at all at this time.  Hubby should be home soon  I'm feeling much better about the whole situation. And I am thanking God that goats don't get runny poops with Jones. Thanks everyone. You all got me through a horrible time. I don't know what I would do without you all..


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Awesome, keep us posted!


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## mammabooh (Sep 1, 2004)

That's wonderful news!!!


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

So good to hear that she is doing better!


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## Lovin' FarmLife (Sep 14, 2009)

Minelson said:


> Vet just left with blood and poop samples to send in. We have started Gretta on 20mgs of Prednisone twice a day. Also the thiamine (which I have on order) I will use the Fortified B Complex until it comes in. She is looking MUCH better today.
> So now all we can do is wait and keep Gretta feeling as good as possible. She is not a candidate to be put down at all at this time.  Hubby should be home soon  I'm feeling much better about the whole situation. And I am thanking God that goats don't get runny poops with Jones. Thanks everyone. You all got me through a horrible time. I don't know what I would do without you all..


This MADE MY DAY!!!!:clap::clap::clap:


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

I hope you and David sleep very very well tonight, together. Smiling to have you a bit more smiley yourself.


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## wiscgoat (Oct 28, 2012)

Hi ! I feel your pain, I had a similar situation when I got my routine test results back. I created a blog with the information I found- maybe you can find this helpful. I hope so! 

My Johne's Project


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## wiscgoat (Oct 28, 2012)

Hi, I feel for you, .. I recently had a similar situation. I found the info a little overwhelming.. so I condensed it to help other people out on this. here is a link to my blog- feel free to share! 

My Johne's Project


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