# opinions on destroying forests to grow food



## MyWorkingForest (Aug 2, 2011)

does anyone think it would hurt to destroy 10 acres of forests for farming? i hate the idea of clearing forestland to grow food but want some more info. and do you think forest owners that do not own farms can still live self sufficiently? like grazing animals in the forest and growing native wild edibles, bee keeping and still raising chickens and rabbits? the only way i could agree myself of destroying the forest is if open field prairies are native to the area and still have native field plants in patches next to food crops to still support wildlife. if you have any opinions than please let me know.


----------



## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Destroy is such a strong word! Instead, learn to utilize your forest to its maximum potential.
Where do you live? That also makes a difference. If you are in northern or central wisconsin, for example you have sandy soil with popples and pines, yuck..worthless IMO, destroy away.

Rabbits do better in cool, shady areas, set-up cages in the trees, rather than cutting them down. Chickens thrive in the woods, although your predator problem is greater. 

Are you going to have an erosion problem if you take out 10 acres? Pigs do very well in woods also.

For gardens, can you build raised beds outside the tree line on the south facing side? If you cut down all those trees, you are going to have stumps to pull. Can you manage a 10 acre garden? That's HUGE.
Why don't you choose a spot with 'trash' trees and cut down those and try a small area before you cut down the rest. Once its gone, its gone and you might regret it if you clear cut it all.

There are LOTS of people that have a few livestock and extensive gardens on only a couple acres. Why don't you cut out 2 acres in the center and have your own secret hideaway?

There is also the question of the wood. What are you going to do with it? House, animal shelter material, sell it. And what kind it? Maples? Tap them for syrup. Black walnut? You'll have trouble getting anything to grow in the soil.


----------



## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Do some research on permaculture.


----------



## SCRancher (Jan 11, 2011)

Some of my best areas during the summer are near the wood line; you may consider doing the following?

http://extension.usu.edu/forestry/Reading/Assets/PDFDocs/NR_FF/NRFF016.pdf

http://www.unl.edu/nac/workingtrees/wts.pdf

Also I have not yet read this thread but it looked promising on my search.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=371896


----------



## Sparticle (Nov 1, 2004)

In addition to permaculture, check out food forests.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Your 10 acres is just a drop in the bucket compared to the thousands of acres of rainforest destroyed every year in the tropics. 

I've got a little less than 1/2 acre of woods I want to clean (not totally clear-cut) so I can plant sugar maples and persimmons.


----------



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Forest think of it as a Crop.You can raise enough Small Animals and Garden with much less of an area.Use the Timber to provide Heating and Building Wood.If you want to open it up some you might consider Goats.

big rockpile


----------



## Waiting Falcon (Nov 25, 2010)

The soil in some forest is only good for growing trees. Check your soil maps and see if the land will grow anything else. You might have to build up the soil to such an extent it would not be feasible. Is erosion a problem? That too must be checked out.
A lot can be told about the type, size and growth of the trees.
Check out all your options thoroughly before doing anything


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

No matter what its gotta be better than destroying fields to grow houses. But do check into using it effectively with your farming plans.


----------



## kabri (May 14, 2002)

What Ross said, we are doing this to create pasture to raise sheep and goats and maybe pigs. The soil will grow grass with very careful clearing and amendments, plus it takes a long time for the grass to get really established. We battle noxious weeds constantly, but I'm hoping that will lessen once we get the goats. Our forest land is not suitable for growing crops, extreme amount of rocks!!!!


----------



## KMA1 (Dec 9, 2006)

Will it hurt to destroy 10 acres of forest? Yes it will! There is a cost to everything you do as a landowner. Clearing 10 acres of forest will result in the loss of the wildlife that lived there. Notice I said loss, because contrary to what some will tell you, you loose the productivity that the forest population lived on. You will also almost certainly reduce the amount of CO2 that the forest could have taken out of the atmosphere, even if you replace the forest with grass. A lot of the suggestions, such as grazing forests, especially running hogs on forests will surverely impact forest ecosystems, and particularly wildlife populations and the change the species composition of the forest over time. The size of the impact will depend on the forest type and location. All that having been said, and it is basic biology and ecology, it is your decision to make. I sincerely doubt that you could make a living off 10 acres of forest in any type of permaculture or native harvest senario. The way I would approach the question is what is the least amount of clearing that I can do and still meet my needs of providing my own food.


----------



## RedTartan (May 2, 2006)

I'm in a similar position. We only have 12.7 acres and most of it is wooded. We're looking to clear several acres to convert to pasture. Because I'm nice and like my neighbors, I'm going to keep the side of my property that's next to him as my woodlot where I'll be selectively cutting and planting trees for heat. That will give us a nice buffer.

I imagine you can save most of your trees and only clear what you need. It's nice to consider the wildlife, but remember that it is your land to do with as you choose.


----------



## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

I am with farm girl. me personally, I would have no use for ten acres of cleared land. I would rather two acres of cleared land and the rest wild for harvesting fire wood. I would try to turn the wooded area into a "Food Forest" that is a permiculture idea where you plant all kind of perenial foods in the woods like berries and herbs. You planted them, so you will know where they are. You don't have to water them and take care of them except for a little maintenance once a year or every other year.

Free range pigs love the woods, and they will feed themselves. All you have to do is stick them in the woods and forget them until it is time to slaughter them. If you have an area of the food forest that you do not want the pigs to touch, like a strawberry patch, fence that area off.

Cutting down ten acre would cost a lot of money to do the work.


----------



## Fat Man (Mar 9, 2011)

Also keep in mind that the land has been managed by people for several thousand years. The idea of pristine nature untouched by the hand of man is a modern one. If you do some study on Native American cultural practices you'll probably come to the conclusion that the land is at its wildest state ever right now.

Another thing to keep in mind is that large trees will probably add value to your land if you ever sell it.


----------



## Jade1096 (Jan 2, 2008)

City Bound said:


> I am with farm girl. me personally, I would have no use for ten acres of cleared land. I would rather two acres of cleared land and the rest wild for harvesting fire wood. I would try to turn the wooded area into a "Food Forest" that is a permiculture idea where you plant all kind of perenial foods in the woods like berries and herbs. You planted them, so you will know where they are. You don't have to water them and take care of them except for a little maintenance once a year or every other year.
> 
> Free range pigs love the woods, and they will feed themselves. All you have to do is stick them in the woods and forget them until it is time to slaughter them. If you have an area of the food forest that you do not want the pigs to touch, like a strawberry patch, fence that area off.
> 
> Cutting down ten acre would cost a lot of money to do the work.


I agree, wholeheartedly. 

I'm not sure why you would need a garden that is 10 acres, that is just huge. I would clear about an acre, then plant berry bushes within your forest. You can propagate the forest with truffle spore, and spike some of the trees with mushroom spore. With enough research and effort, you could have a thriving "forest garden" to supplement your kitchen garden.


----------



## Tyler520 (Aug 12, 2011)

It is important to note that forest land is not optimal farming land - you'd be lucky to achieve 30-40% of the yield you'd achieve if you were to convert grassland.


----------



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I hired a forester years ago to walk 170 acres. As we covered the property, he pointed out a number of things that were not obvious to me. In many areas of West Virginia, generations of farmers have allowed cattle to graze on the hillsides. Where that is still practiced you can see the paths worn into the sides of the hills.

In this area the destructive farming practices resulted in a loss of much of the original top soil. The forester was able to point out the evidence of the paths in the forest that's grown up since the late 1800's to early 1900s when the county was clear cut.

Soil is much more complex than many realize. There's more life forms in soil than we know existing in a collaborative community. The fungi, bacteria, etc. support the plant growth including trees. That is why I always suggest that a new property owner get someone like a herbalist to look at their acreage.

If the property has been grazed in the past hundred years, chances are you don't have anything really special. The forester did find a small naturally terraced area that for some reason had never been grazed. Another area was so deficient that the plant life wasn't doing well. The area that had never been grazed had a lot of herbs growing there naturally.

Once you allow any animals to graze in a forest, they destroy any native understory plants that may be valuable. Erosion and disruption of the soil affects the ecology underfoot. Much of West Virginia's understory has been destroyed by the deer population. If you have deer in your area, that may be a problem. What's left after the deer get finished is often invasive species and/or trees with less commercial value.

The native Americans were not as destructive as the settlers that arrived from the old country. The native Indians valued the plant diversity including the plentiful herbs of their times.


----------



## DanielY (Aug 25, 2011)

MyWorkingForest said:


> the only way i could agree myself of destroying the forest is if open field prairies are native to the area and still have native field plants in patches next to food crops to still support wildlife.


In my experience the wild life will be perfectly happy existing off your crops. no need to grow special food for them.


----------



## ldc (Oct 11, 2006)

The parts of the world were swine are raised in forests, all have a variety of palatable acorns in abundance. Just FYI, in case someone wants to try this, make sure you have oak trees with acorns pigs like. Down here in LA, there is a kind of pecan called "pig pecan" and farmers rake them up to feed, if they don't have them on their own place. These pecans have a "turpentine" taste to humans, but not to pigs! (And regular pecans command a high price from other humans!) Pigs can probably eat other nuts, except black walnuts (juglone). I understand the OP is talking cattle, (here the Zebu mixes run in the woods ) but this is just FYI as hogs were mentioned above. Hogs have very diff. requirments from those of cattle. ldc


----------



## nancylee (Mar 8, 2011)

Jade1096 said:


> I agree, wholeheartedly.
> 
> I'm not sure why you would need a garden that is 10 acres, that is just huge. I would clear about an acre, then plant berry bushes within your forest. You can propagate the forest with truffle spore, and spike some of the trees with mushroom spore. With enough research and effort, you could have a thriving "forest garden" to supplement your kitchen garden.


Hi,
What kind of berry bushes would grow in a forest?? Plus I am in Zone 4, so I don't generally see any berry bushes in the acreage around my house. Thanks,
Nancy


----------



## Junkhound (Sep 14, 2010)

You can't eat trees, but incremental clearing to grow food is sensible.
At some point you would have enough cleared to grow all the food you need and have some of the forest left. Just my opinion.

Junkhound


----------



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

nancylee said:


> Hi,
> What kind of berry bushes would grow in a forest?? Plus I am in Zone 4, so I don't generally see any berry bushes in the acreage around my house. Thanks,
> Nancy


You'd have to plant them around the edge of the forest to get light. In areas with acid soils where oaks grow, low bush blueberries will do well. Those are often native. If blueberries will grow, I'm sure others will too.


----------



## Durandal (Aug 19, 2007)

Junkhound said:


> You can't eat trees, but incremental clearing to grow food is sensible.
> At some point you would have enough cleared to grow all the food you need and have some of the forest left. Just my opinion.
> 
> Junkhound


Forest raised pork finished on barley. Don't tell me you cannot eat trees. You just need a couple steps in the conversion of energy into something you can consume.

Then there is all those nice fruiting things native to my area at least, pawpaws, elder berries, spicebush, mountain mint, walnuts, acorns...the list is long.

Your wooded lot cools air and can be used to cool air flowing down hill into a home. It can help shade plantings in the heat of summer to allow for a more diverse crop. It can be used as a fuel source, a construction material source, wildlife habitat, habitat and protection for domesticated animals.

Mushrooms, tinder, moisture, wind breaks, erosion control...

The list is long.


----------



## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

Just my opinion here..............So take it for what it's worth.  

You should do whatever you feel is right for you on the clearing idea. And as someone said in an above post, it's very expensive to clear woodland even if you're doing it yourself with a chainsaw. That a LOT of wood to cut, split, haul, stack, and burn. The only thing I'd recommend is not doing what some in my area do and that's have a bull dozer push them into a pile and burn them. That's such a waste of fuel in my opinion.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Goats prefer the browse in the forest to pasture. Mine walk through five acres of grass to get to the woods.


----------



## ranger4327 (Dec 11, 2008)

Dont think of it as "destroying", it's more in line with Land Conversion. I am in the same situation. Altho mine is more of reclaiming old fields. I bought a farm a few years back. The open fields were planted to spruce. Now 60 years later, i have removed most of the spruce and trying to reclaim the old fields. Made some good progress this summer but have much more to do. I am looking at nearly 20 acres. Am using, or will be using, a combination of bull dozer, goats, pigs..... My goal is to have one acre of productive "gardens" and the rest fields for pasture and bush hogging !!! Fun Fun Fun !!!!


----------



## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

ranger4327 said:


> Dont think of it as "destroying", it's more in line with Land Conversion. I am in the same situation. Altho mine is more of reclaiming old fields. I bought a farm a few years back. The open fields were planted to spruce. Now 60 years later, i have removed most of the spruce and trying to reclaim the old fields. Made some good progress this summer but have much more to do. I am looking at nearly 20 acres. Am using, or will be using, a combination of bull dozer, goats, pigs..... My goal is to have one acre of productive "gardens" and the rest fields for pasture and bush hogging !!! Fun Fun Fun !!!!


 Right on! Yep, I am in a similar situation. Reclaiming old pastures that have grown up in softwoods... Want to plant half an acre of blackberries, raspberries and strawberries, as well as expand the garden and or pasture. Good bottom land, although it might frost a little sooner. 
Talked to a local bulldozer operator, would only take him a day,and that way the stumps are removed also.


----------



## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

Every THING is in a cycle, despite what all the greenies say. Some take longer...such as concrete or asphalt. Even those will eventually break down and supply a life source for something small, which eventually grows into a forest or grassland.

A much shorter cycle and easier to see (benificial?) is harvesting, replanting, and using to your benifit,until you get to old to continue,then, letting nature take a quick course in front of you, possibly during your lifetime? Just depends on the enviroment you are in?

Nature does right itself! We hopefully will leave a light footprint, but no matter what you do, you fight against living and death. And THAT is part of the cycle! Everything goes back!

In answer to your question... I wouldn't hesitate to utilize it for farming. It is the same organic purpose.I would hate to see it go to waste, such as simply piled and burned. But, it will still return to the earth, to benifit life at some point!!!

THe most productive areas for flora and fauna are fringe areas. THe areas where different diversities meet!



MyWorkingForest said:


> does anyone think it would hurt to destroy 10 acres of forests for farming? i hate the idea of clearing forestland to grow food but want some more info. and do you think forest owners that do not own farms can still live self sufficiently? like grazing animals in the forest and growing native wild edibles, bee keeping and still raising chickens and rabbits? the only way i could agree myself of destroying the forest is if open field prairies are native to the area and still have native field plants in patches next to food crops to still support wildlife. if you have any opinions than please let me know.


----------



## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

For some reason, thought I'd posted. When we bought our property, 6.68 acres, about 1/4 of an acre was cleared. Our home, shop, and carport was in that area. The trees? Towering 2nd growth Cedar, Fir, Alder, and a few others. DH logged 50 of the biggest ones, and sent them to the sawmill (yr2), then we put in our orchard and garden area, which we have added to more each year since (now yr 5- 4th year of gardening here). We have just under 5 acres left in forest. After discussion, we have concluded the limit of clearing will leave 4 acres of the most mature forest (bordering old growth). I have a thread in the gardening section showing what we did. We currently have pigs, chickens, rabbits, and are planning to get goats. Next Spring, we will be getting ducks (instead of chickens). 

Like others have posted, study Permaculture (Gaia's Garden is my recommendation). Also, another excellent book is, "The New Self Sufficient Gardener," by John Seymour. We chose to use raised beds due to our climate and topography, but also are planting in ground, will be using deep beds, and also converting our orchard to Permaculture. Here is my thread (2 yrs of progression):

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=351013


----------



## Olivia67 (Mar 6, 2008)

O.k., I'm just jumping in here but my friend said that ginsing only grows in forest areas and it commands a huge price! Plus there is a huge demand for wild food now and it isn't that hard to figure out what you can eat and what you can't. Cat-tails are completely edible, the top when it turns to seed makes a great flour the roots are said to taste like potatoes. Prickly nettle tastes like spinach when cooked and tree mushrooms are said to better than caffene for a quick pick me up. This is just basic information that I've picked up from a couple of articles and on tv, if you bought a couple of books I'm sure that harvesting wild food would be easier than trying to garden. 10 whole acres is such a blessing-you are fortunate! Good luck with whatever you go with.


----------



## mplatt4 (Mar 24, 2007)

you can easially find a spot for a nice size garden and clear a place for a orchard where some dead trees are or brush is . Hogs do great in the forest running free range as do cows you just cant run near as many goats do better in the woods as they prefer brush to grass chickens can free range and get all the insects and ticks they can eat but horses usually will kill alot of trees eating bark if there isnt plenty of grass But you have a point about destroying forest lands builders over history have bought up the best farmlands in the country and turned it into housing developements leaving farmers with less productive land. soon people are going to have to decide if they want to eat and breath or if they want to live in a nice suburb in a house that looks like there neighbors I dont want to live in the city either but if we keep going at our present rate of forest and farm destruction our great grandkids might have food shortages and problems trying to find enough O2 to breath


----------



## Raven12 (Mar 5, 2011)

MyWorkingForest said:


> i hate the idea of clearing forestland to grow food but want some more info. and do you think forest owners that do not own farms can still live self sufficiently?


It's what families have been doing for ages in the mountains of PA. There is a balance that can be achieved.


----------



## Deep Woods (Jun 12, 2011)

Food is more important than trees. Study you situation and cut trees off of just the amount of land you need. Some would have all believe that any animals that live in your forest will die if you cut the trees...nonsense!!..critters are not "sissyfied, cry babies" like some humans, they will move to another area and some will benefit more from the "new growth" that will come from the opening of the canopy. God will provide well for the critters and has for sometime now, all without the help of the "bleeding heart greenies".


----------

