# Converting pine forest into pasture



## stoneunhenged (Sep 22, 2007)

I live in North Florida. About 50 years ago my 30-acre farm was mostly pasture. Then, the farmer died and it lay fallow. Today, it is dominated by volunteer pines about 75'-100' tall. 

I have six Pineywoods cattle and six Gulf Coast native sheep that I keep on a portion of the farm. I'm in the process of having the pines cut and hauled off on about ten acres. That will leave the stumps, a few scraggly hardwoods, and a lot of pine debris. I'm not going to have the stumps cleared. It's too expensive and the pines are spaced far apart. I have a small tractor with a PTO and can easily navigate around the stumps.

My basic plan is to clear the debris, remove any saplings that remain, and disc the soil for a couple of months to compost the needles and other organic matter. In the spring --maybe in March-- my plan is to plant a high-yield forage grass. The ten acres is cross-fenced so I can rotate the livestock over the pasture.

That's a pretty basic plan. If you have a better idea or can add any details, I'd appreciate it. Here are some pics:

This is a 'before' shot showing the volunteer pines and undergrowth:










Here's an 'after' shot showing clearing in progress:










Here's the livestock:


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

beware the tap root holes of pines. the old pines die, rot away leaving an almost post hole like trap to break legs.


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

are you able to burn? i would do a controld burn to clean alot of that up, then till and seed from there,


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## stoneunhenged (Sep 22, 2007)

KSALguy said:


> are you able to burn? i would do a controld burn to clean alot of that up, then till and seed from there,


Yes, I can burn it.


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## john in la (Jul 15, 2005)

1) I would clean up the tree tops and put into a pile for burning
2) I would select several of the hardwoods for keeping. They will fill out nice that the pine cover is gone and provide much needed shade in your hot humid summers. It is not like you need to remove them for easy hay cutting because of the pine stumps.
3) I would get a soil test done. Your state ag service will do it for a few dollars.
4) Per this test I would spread lime. Going to need about 2 tons per acre most likely.
5) since most of the under brush is knocked down (per your picture) I would not do a controlled burn. Disc the needles and lime in. You need the organic matter more than you need the burn.
6) In the spring disc again and spread Bahia (or your choice) grass seed. Pull a bed spring or such (harrow) across it to lightly cover the seed.

By the way if you do not mind me asking...... How much did you get per board feet for the trees.


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## stoneunhenged (Sep 22, 2007)

john in la said:


> 1) I would clean up the tree tops and put into a pile for burning
> 2) I would select several of the hardwoods for keeping. They will fill out nice that the pine cover is gone and provide much needed shade in your hot humid summers. It is not like you need to remove them for easy hay cutting because of the pine stumps.
> 3) I would get a soil test done. Your state ag service will do it for a few dollars.
> 4) Per this test I would spread lime. Going to need about 2 tons per acre most likely.
> ...


Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure how much they paid per board foot. They're paying me $3,000 total for the wood they take out. To be honest, I'd let them have it for free just to get the land cleared.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

From what I can determine from the pictures that cut should have yielded the landowner $1600 to $2400 per acre. PS...I am a tree farmer.


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## stoneunhenged (Sep 22, 2007)

agmantoo said:


> From what I can determine from the pictures that cut should have yielded the landowner $1600 to $2400 per acre. PS...I am a tree farmer.


I got a couple of quotes. I took the highest offer. The timber guys said that the small size of the parcel, the need to preserve the hardwoods, and issues with accessibility limited its cash value.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Distance to the mill and accessibility will definitely lower the income. Ten acres is relatively small but should justify an equipment move. How many trailer loads of saw timber has it yielded?


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## RosewoodfarmVA (Oct 5, 2005)

Why not grow both cows AND pines? Thin out the remaining pines and leave them spaced 30 or 40 feet apart, then fence in and graze the cows. They'll clean up the brush and as the sunlight hits the floor grasses will thrive. In another 10-20 years you'll really have some nice pines. Granted, you won't have maximum pasture utilization, only about 60% or 70% grazing compared to completely cleared, but those pines are just right for selective thinning, and if done properly you should atleast double their value in another 10 years worth of sawlog growth. My 2c if that was my land.


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## stoneunhenged (Sep 22, 2007)

RosewoodfarmVA said:


> Why not grow both cows AND pines? Thin out the remaining pines and leave them spaced 30 or 40 feet apart, then fence in and graze the cows. They'll clean up the brush and as the sunlight hits the floor grasses will thrive. In another 10-20 years you'll really have some nice pines. Granted, you won't have maximum pasture utilization, only about 60% or 70% grazing compared to completely cleared, but those pines are just right for selective thinning, and if done properly you should atleast double their value in another 10 years worth of sawlog growth. My 2c if that was my land.


I've got pines on the rest of the farm. I'd like pure pasture on part of it.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

I'll second John's note from above. Put lime on the soil. I've been down the road you're heading before and was successful at it. I took a sample of the soil to my extension office to have tested and it seems that evergreen trees get the PH of the soil really out of balance. The only was to nuetralize it is with lots of lime. Good Luck.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Soil test is the first step.Finding out the soil type is the next step. I've seen pines grow just great on soil that won't grow a blade of grass.
I've seen Christmas tree plantations where the stumps were left. The trees re-grew and made nasty bushes everywhere. Are you prepared to kill any new growth from those stumps?


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## stoneunhenged (Sep 22, 2007)

haypoint said:


> Soil test is the first step.Finding out the soil type is the next step. I've seen pines grow just great on soil that won't grow a blade of grass.
> I've seen Christmas tree plantations where the stumps were left. The trees re-grew and made nasty bushes everywhere. Are you prepared to kill any new growth from those stumps?


I could kill them, but I've cut down a lot of pines over the years on this farm and never see one grow back. I can't say the same for the hardwoods.

I'm optimistic that I can re-introduce pasture. After all, this was a pasture about fifty years ago. There is still some bahia grass growing in the few sunny spots between the pines.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

Nope, the pines won't come back from stumps.
From what I can see, it looks like the timber guys did a reasonably good job of cleaning up the debris.
I don't know the first thing about cattle (hope to someday, though), but I'm in the same climate zone, and I've cleared a few parts of my timber farm for other uses, and have learned a thing or two, so here's my dos centavos...
The pines have likely gotten the soil ph all wacky, but it probably wont hinder the growth of bihia. Bahia has volunteered (and with vigor) everywhere that I've clearcut, right along with a grip of dewberries, and some of my best-producing blueberry bushes. Spraying with 2,4-d will wack the dewberries.
A lanscape rake behind the tractor will clean up the straw pretty quick, but if it was me, I wouldn't fool with it. The new sun exposure alone will let the bihia come up through it, no problem.
Pine needles are mostly carbon, so without extra nitrogen, the'll be very slow to break down when you disk them in. A burn won't get it all, but I'd consider burning it, overseeding with rye, disking it under when the weather warms, and seeding with bihia. The nitrogen from the rye will help the remaining pinestraw break down quicker, and replace some of the nitrogen that gonn'a get sucked up from the breakdown of all that carbon.
In your part of the country, one thing that you might want to keep an eye out for is cogon grass (jap grass) coming up in your new pasture........the stuff is a nightmare, both for timber farmes, and cattle farmers. If you see it coming up, glyphosate with a shot of 2,4-d will kill it, but you've gotta' really stay on top of it.
Good luck with your new pasture.


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