# "The team" thread got me thinking



## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

In any sort of long term disaster/scenario, it is generally accepted that the best chance of survival will lie with groups banded together.

I find it interesting that even before the event people can be labelled as "worth having" and "not worth having". How can you really know? The "bum" who appears to be a layabout may be a gifted teacher, or have great skill with livestock, whereas the blacksmith or the chemist may fall apart once his world has vanished?

Anyway - that wasn't my point  What I was thinking was - if you intend to have a group, how will you structure it. If you have a number of families coming together into one household, will the host family be "the boss" and the others like it or lump it? Will you have a Greek style democracy where the head of each household will have a vote? Will each family continue to operate as an individual unit, but only come together for big projects?

Any thoughts?

hoggie


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Depends on where you fall in doesn't it? I mean, if you have the land and resources you're pretty much in charge of the structure. I can't imagine you'd invite others to come live with you and give away control over what's yours.


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

Oh the other hand, if you have the knowledge and skills - would you really give away control over your life?


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

hoggie said:


> Oh the other hand, if you have the knowledge and skills - would you really give away control over your life?


 I don't think you'd have to give away control over your life. Why would you assume that? You'd have a job just like before, only difference would be now that job meant living well instead of just surviving.

Though I do suppose it would depend a lot on who you fell in with.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

If the people don't get along any better than this, better not have them there.

Probably best to put these groups together now, rather than later.

Also having one person who knows how to do a particular thing may not be good. What happens if some thing happens to them.
In a survival situation you need to know what each person can do, no guessing. so yes each person might have a predeterimined value. or at least be able to show what their value is pretty darn fast.

for instance a person who could do several things would be more appreciated than some one who has only one skill.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

SquashNut said:


> If the people don't get along any better than this, better not have them there.
> 
> Probably best to put these groups together now, rather than later.
> 
> ...


 I agree. It's not like we'd be kidnapping people into coming here and working. It's a volunteer situation just like having a job.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

I am NOT looking for a fight.........However I think few and I do mean very few people have any usefull skills.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Sourdough, I think a really good cook is worth their weight in dough.


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## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

For the period until things are stabilized I would do with what we currently have living here. Hopefully the people who I classify as "mouths to feed" will leave and go somewhere else to be fed. Once things stabilize some, we would be very choosy as to who would join the group. A good example can be found in the books of the Deep Winter series by Thomas Sherry. His model is as good as I can think of, and obviously he has done some serious thinking on the subject. I have gotten as many of my neighbors as possible to read this book. Their reactions to it influence my decision as to whether I consider them to be an asset or a mouth to feed.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Sourdough said:


> I am NOT looking for a fight.........However I think few and I do mean very few people have any usefull skills.


so you cann't make a sour dough? I can!!! sounds use full to me.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

YFlats - I agree that Thomas Sherry's "Deep Winter" series is a very well thought out solution to this problem. I'd probably be thinking more along those lines, adapted to where I live and who I know.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

The only "USEFULL" skill most people will have is the ability to eat. Few people could even put in an honest 14 to 16 hours of Hard Manual labor. The single most important skill you will need is the ability to do very hard manual labor.


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

I have alot of useless family but I wouldn't turn them away. But that don't mean they are going to be later. But same as today i make everyone wrk even if it isn't practical


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

hoggie said:


> In any sort of long term disaster/scenario, it is generally accepted that the best chance of survival will lie with groups banded together.
> 
> I find it interesting that even before the event people can be labelled as "worth having" and "not worth having". How can you really know? The "bum" who appears to be a layabout may be a gifted teacher, or have great skill with livestock, whereas the blacksmith or the chemist may fall apart once his world has vanished?
> 
> ...


I think that the sad truth is that many survivalist folks who are anticipating the end of the world as we know it tend to not be very good at participating in, let alone leading, group dynamics.

Some have not been very successful at negotiating the sort of society and civilization that we have, now.

For a few, the very idea of thriving in a post-end-of-the-world life is perhaps the main reason that they prep because they might think that is about their only hope of not continually being stuck in the role of the underdog.

But, if I have not been very successful in creating a cohesive group and helping to direct it in times of overwhelming abundance and stability, how can I possibly hope to do that when surrounded by hunger and uncertainty.

If I were to merely think that having some supplies and weapons might make me some sort of a king, I would be a bit insane.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Oggie said:


> I think that the sad truth is that many survivalist folks who are anticipating the end of the world as we know it tend to not be very good at participating in, let alone leading, group dynamics.
> 
> Some have not been very successful at negotiating the sort of society and civilization that we have, now.
> 
> ...


 That is true to a certain extent. I think you'll find that here on HT we tend not to have as many extreme survivalists and more sustainable living, prep minded folks. Several of us run small businesses and are in charge of people already. This is one of the reasons I signed up here instead of the other many sites devoted to this stuff.

ETA: More often than not the problem with running something isn't the resources, it's the labor.


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## mqualls82 (Sep 6, 2010)

Very hard manual labor........I don't mind manual labor, but I'd rather fix the chainsaw rather than get the crosscut saw out.

The brain is the strongest muscle.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

Well, all I know is that I have been doing subsistence lifestyle/ Alaska homesteading/ Professional Hunting Guide for near 40 years, and very little of what I do requires brains, it is about 98% hard manual labor. I don't need someone to fix the chainsaws (I own 16 chainsaws) what I need is someone to dig trenches, mix concrete by hand, process moose, build drying racks, etc.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Sourdough said:


> The only "USEFULL" skill most people will have is the ability to eat. Few people could even put in an honest 14 to 16 hours of Hard Manual labor. The single most important skill you will need is the ability to do very hard manual labor.


yes, but at what? doesn't it help to at least understand where to put the dirt when you dig the hole?


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

SquashNut said:


> yes, but at what? doesn't it help to at least understand where to put the dirt when you dig the hole?



NO.........people need (IMHO) to get that they have little to offer. I mean who in New York City, L.A. or Detroit has any skill that I would trade food for.....:shrug:


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Sourdough said:


> NO.........people need (IMHO) to get that they have little to offer. I mean who in New York City, L.A. or Detroit has any skill that I would trade food for.....:shrug:


Cities have lots of people with real hands on skills...mechanics, boiler operators, firefighters, construction workers, etc. Those skills may not be needed by you, but they're far from useless.


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## triple divide (Jan 7, 2010)

I'm on SD's side on this one.

I won't speak for another man, so I'll speak for myself. I haven't lived the subsistence lifestyle since I moved to Alaska. I worked here as a packer and guide for three years before committing to the Alaskan lifestyle.

I've also owned or run farms in three different places in the lesser 48. And you know what? There's no comparison. Life is a hundred times tougher here than any other place I've lived, and right now-I live-as close to the bush without actually living in it. 

Up here men of action who aren't afraid to get cold and dirty are held in higher esteem than the most gifted underwater basket weaver. Know why? Guess what, the basket weaver is so impressed with his one skill, that he has overvalued himself internally and wishes others in the community to compliment him likewise for his knowledge. Thus he sits on his tail with his one asset, consuming, of little usefulness until his skill is requested.

People move to Alaska every year, convinced they got it all figgured out. A moose, maybe a bear, and all the salmon a 3/4 ton truck can haul. Maybe split some wood, if he has to. Following spring, he's gone.

SD's opinion is his own, but folks, times are reletively easy now, definaty not SHTF times just yet. But all these fancy skills don't convince me. If it means I have to put up with someone's ego for the sake of his one skill, I choose to figure it out on my own or do without all together.


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## pamda (Oct 14, 2004)

But, this attitude makes your ego just a big as the person you claim you don't want to deal with. And in the event of world or country collapse the one thing that will have to go is ego....


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## triple divide (Jan 7, 2010)

pamda said:


> But, this attitude makes your ego just a big as the person you claim you don't want to deal with. And in the event of world or country collapse the one thing that will have to go is ego....


Well, Alaska is a pretty darn big state, you know... ;-)


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

I think a group needs to recognize and capitalize on the strengths and experience of those in the group. For example, I have the most experience in our MAG with livestock. So naturally I would be the one responsible for the livestock. One or more of the youngsters that show a natural ability/interest in that area would be assigned to help me with the care of the stock. If someone showed up with more experience in a particular area of stock care - say my cousin who has more experience with draft animals - then they would take on that responsibility. Same with gardening - the person with the most experience would take that on, with "apprentices" assigned to learn from them. If there is an area where there isn't anyone with experience, then someone with an interest would be assigned to learn it.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

SquashNut said:


> If the people don't get along any better than this, better not have them there.
> 
> Probably best to put these groups together now, rather than later.
> 
> ...


But if you get people with different skill sets they would be able to teach their trade to the others in the group. That was each person in the group would have the capability to fill in in the event of one of the people being injured. The rest of the group may not master the craft, but could probably learn enough to keep the group afloat until someon gets better at it.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

pamda said:


> But, this attitude makes your ego just a big as the person you claim you don't want to deal with. And in the event of world or country collapse the one thing that will have to go is ego....



For me "Ego" has nothing to do with it. Do I have an "Ego"....Yes I do. But to me that is NOT the issue.

The issue for me is this........Do I need you (not pamda, but anyone) to survive.....no. 

So what do you bring to my homestead that has any value, for which I would trade food, clothing or shelter.....???

I am sorry, but I think 98% of this INTERNET survival stuff is just "Feel Good" Mental 
Exercise*.

Really, how many times last year did you take your "Bugger'Out Baggie" and hump it for two weeks into the wilderness.

This whole survival thing is about buying stuff, and yapping about some neat thing you learned on some-other forum.

Can you Really (NOT can you in theory) Really, really, really, really survive based on experience, not 5 days at Uncle Bob's deer cabin.

I figure it will be so aweful.......The suffering will drive most to self'abort. Don't you think it is interesting that everyone thinks that they will survive....??? I would estimate that I would only make it about 14 to 16 months.

It is so sad that we are so delusional, so clueless about real survival. For the most part people approach it like prepping for a TV Survival Game Show.

If the SHTF it will NOT be a Game. Sorry.

RANT Over: I need to go pack drinking water from the creek.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

The way DH and I have been working things is just getting to know the neighbors and their skills. I don't figure they'll be living on our land, we each have our own, but we would work together and barter skills with each other. This way it's more like a small town than a commune situation. We already have met several neighbors and have discussed these issues. We know what each person brings to the collective and what areas we either need to learn or find someone nearby with those skills.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Sourdough said:


> The only "USEFULL" skill most people will have is the ability to eat. Few people could even put in an honest 14 to 16 hours of Hard Manual labor. The single most important skill you will need is the ability to do very hard manual labor.


I suspect that lack of survival skills is probably an issue with the general population. Maybe less so with the folks on this forum. Or at least, at a minimum, there are some homesteading skills on this forum.

If it really is TEOTWAWKI, then it is going to take a lot of long hours of hard work, but it is really motivating when it is get the work done or freeze to death or starve to death.

A lot of folks have an attitude adjustment when that brush shelter needs to be finished before that blizzard hits.

Someone who can't put in 16 hours of hard labor today will be able to do it by the end of 6 weeks. Bodies gain strength with work.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Sourdough said:


> I am sorry, but I think 98% of this INTERNET survival stuff is just "Feel Good" Mental Exercise*.
> 
> Really, how many times last year did you take your "Bugger'Out Baggie" and hump it for two weeks into the wilderness.
> 
> ...


I would like to point out that a lot of people learn from one another online in the absence of others with old world skills in their local communities. In the last few years I have learned a LOT more than I knew before through my mental exercise*. Does it make me more able to survive, maybe not but it makes me more able than I was before. Making do the best I can with the resources I have. The internet is a tool.

I agree that many people do not take real life excursions to test their skills. For me that would be unwise and impractical. Since I have young children and live in farm country my best chance at survival is to bug in. IF the shtf we would have to stand to the death on our land, setting off into the wilderness would just prolong the inevitable. Survival practice here involves knowing where water runs year round and in knowing how to garden as well as defend it. etc.

Survival as a loner in Alaska is not at all similar to survival of a small community of farmers, surrounded by farm land that has been in the same family for at least 3 generations. Picture Grizzly Adams vs. Charles Ingalls. :gaptooth:

There are a lot of big talkers out there who probably have no survival skills even if they think they do. Agreed. However, not everyone preps for the same scenario and every survival situation is unique in some ways. Save the contempt for people who are oblivious consumers who plan to show up on the governments soup lines...

Lastly and most importantly, life has only been relatively comfortable for a few hundred years. Our ancestors lived in our version of shtf everyday and managed to survive. It may have been unpleasant but it was do-able. People died left and right but life did manage to go on, on some level. They did all of this with crude tools and very limited resources. Naturally there would be a very harsh and steep learning curve to become that hardy where many would fail but it IS possible. Don't underestimate human ingenuity. People have only become useless and lazy in the last couple generations...

In REAL life primitive conditions groups survived and loners were vulnerable. Thousands and thousands (+) of years of history prove that inarguable fact.


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## Pouncer (Oct 28, 2006)

Sourdough has it right, for Alaska, imo. Triple Divide isn't wrong either. 

The thought of real collapse up here is sobering. I've done the dry cabin, very little heat thing before here, and it's *hard*. Tremendous amount of labor just cutting firewood by hand, for one. Many thousands up here are either going to bail out of the state, or freeze to death. And that includes the folks that are moving up, who think they are prepped. (Yes people are moving here for that purpose)


Look, I garden, pretty intensively. Most people don't know that cabbage seed (cabbage, a staple of Alaska gardens!)takes two years. How are you going to winter over enough plants for seed? When heat is iffy and daylight less and properly heated and ventilated space not available? These little gaps in knowledge are going to be fatal, and that's just one tiny tidbit. With a 90 day growing season, it is going to be really hard.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I think prepping and surviving in Alaska is much different (and harder) than for the lower 48, and even the Northern of the 48, would be much different than the Southern or even Western of the continguious 48 states.

So, while someone in Alaska could put us down for not being able to make it, I wonder if they could adapt to where we are, and the issues that come from being down here.

Every area seems to be different, every set of circumstances different; and not all SHTF's are the same. And especially The End of the World as We Know It - those are really a bunch of different things.

I'd say most here are more of the practical get through things survivors and not the hero inspired deep survivalist survivors.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Sourdough said:


> For me "Ego" has nothing to do with it. Do I have an "Ego"....Yes I do. But to me that is NOT the issue.
> 
> The issue for me is this........Do I need you (not pamda, but anyone) to survive.....no.
> 
> ...


 I think I've got a better idea of what you're saying now and I even agree to some extent. I have gone off into the wilderness and survived on what I could find, used to do so once a year. My granddad is half Mic Mac and demanded that I (Don't know why he picked me, but I'm glad he did now) learn to do it the old way. He's near 80 now and doesn't go out into the brush much anymore, but I still go out once in while to sharpen up the things he taught me. Surviving in the backwoods of Northern Maine in the middle of January likely isn't as hard as it would be in Alaska, but I think it's as close as you can get in the lower 48.

But that's a worst case scenario. I understand how hard it is up there, but most of us aren't in Alaska. Surviving in Washington State for example would be much easier than up there. Down here I can raise livestock right off the land. I don't need to worry about them freezing and I don't have to worry about grizzlies. Down here I can grow a lot more food as I have a much longer growing season and more seed choices. 

Down here we will have much more available salvage. That is, more machines left over, more metals and fuel, more power tools, more canned goods and frozen foods, more of everything that makes life easier during the transition. Up there in the bush once the 'lessor' 48 stop shipping goods and such to you guys, you've pretty much run out of goods. 

I guess what I'm getting at is, in a real SHTF scenario our scenario looks a lot different than yours does and will support more folks than yours will. More folks will mean we will want to maintain a certain level of civilization. I'd be willing to bet those folks in the tropics will find an even easier transition, and will hold a real advantage over the rest of us.

Lastly I'd like to address your concern that everyone thinks they'll live through a SHTF type scenario. I'd suggest that's the only attitude to have. No matter what happens I intend to at least give it my all to survive. I'm certainly not going to paste an expiration date on myself.


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## Pouncer (Oct 28, 2006)

I'll chime in on the notion that everyone thinks they'll survive. 

Well, I don't. I am a realist. I have chronic allergies, which have lead to repeated sinus infections which lead to acute asthmatic bronchitis, which eventually put me down with flu (4 days in the hospital last year, in fact) If things fall apart I probably won't be working where my biggest exposure to irritants is, but it's my conclusion I will make it a couple of years, tops. 

And that is okay with me, my goal is to give my son a fighting chance at surviving. I'll have a lot to teach him, won't I?


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

InvalidID said:


> Lastly I'd like to address your concern that everyone thinks they'll live through a SHTF type scenario. I'd suggest that's the only attitude to have. No matter what happens I intend to at least give it my all to survive. I'm certainly not going to paste an expiration date on myself.


I agree. Look at how many people died on the Oregon Trail - did that stop people from coming? Nope. 

Thinking you aren't going to survive is a self fulfilling prophecy.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

While I think Sourdough is very realistic in his description of how bad things could get in an absolute worst case scenario, I agree with others that say most here on HT are more realistic than those survival "buyers" he is talking about. Also, most of us don't live in Alaska. But I will add myself to those who don't expect to survive long term, but I still prepare as if I will. I was told I had a year to live over five years ago...maybe I'm a survivor after all.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Sourdough said:


> For me "Ego" has nothing to do with it. Do I have an "Ego"....Yes I do. But to me that is NOT the issue.
> 
> The issue for me is this........Do I need you (not pamda, but anyone) to survive.....no.
> 
> ...


Having been pregnant and homeless for several months, I think I could survive. Just saying. No, it wasn't in Alaska and I didn't have all the prep stuff I now have, but I had street smarts and did indeed survive.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Pouncer said:


> Sourdough has it right, for Alaska, imo. Triple Divide isn't wrong either.
> 
> The thought of real collapse up here is sobering. I've done the dry cabin, very little heat thing before here, and it's *hard*. Tremendous amount of labor just cutting firewood by hand, for one. Many thousands up here are either going to bail out of the state, or freeze to death. And that includes the folks that are moving up, who think they are prepped. (Yes people are moving here for that purpose)
> 
> ...


Life is hard. Those that are already prepping will work out many of the kinks before everything falls apart. That's why it's so important to learn all you can and then start putting into practice what you have learned. When I joined this forum I came with only the desire to learn. I had no garden, no chickens, no goats, but having been homeless I had a strong desire to learn all I could so that if I ever found myself in the same situation, or worse, I would have an easier time making it. You can learn alot by reading about it, then putting that knowledge to use. The more you learn before things fall apart, the better your chances of survival. However, no matter how much you know how to do, there's going to be many things you won't know. That's when instincts come into affect. You either have them or you don't. If you do, then you'll be able to come up with inventive ways to accomplish what needs to be done.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Sonshine said:


> Having been pregnant and homeless for several months, I think I could survive. Just saying. No, it wasn't in Alaska and I didn't have all the prep stuff I now have, but I had street smarts and did indeed survive.


To me this is the more probable version of survival. There is a lot of surviving that goes on that does not make the "SURVIVAL" forums.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

hoggie said:


> if you intend to have a group, how will you structure it. If you have a number of families coming together into one household, will the host family be "the boss" and the others like it or lump it? Will you have a Greek style democracy where the head of each household will have a vote? Will each family continue to operate as an individual unit, but only come together for big projects?
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> hoggie



Getting back to the original question: In my opinion the only way will be some form of force like a dictatorship. Americans loath work, real manual labor. I fear more would choose death over 14 hours of hard labor. I think the only "Groups" that will have a chance of surviving as a group will be in other countries. Countries where children start working 11 hours a day in factories at the age of ten.

Now I do NOT support this practice, but this is the cultural mindset I would want to be part of in a EOTWAWKI "Group".


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## Vickie44 (Jul 27, 2010)

Farmers are the most resilient, hardworking, multi skilled people I know . They have almost all the skills mentioned above. I'll stay with the farm community


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

Hoggie - I think in a perfect situation there would be one leader to make decisions, but with some input of a few others to discuss the problems and solutions first. I'm surmising that you being on an island and isolated (or trapped) should have some trusted neighbour to join up with. 

Invalid - I don't care if the cook is Julia Child or Gordon Ramsey, if they don't know how to cook over an open fire or wood stove decently then they're good for nothing. You need someone that knows how to use an axe too. 
And please don't be fooled into thinking that going off into the bush for a few days a year is like living primatively year round in all seasons. Winter survival training would be a good prep.

Squashnut - if you can't figure out where to shovel the dirt from a hole then you're in a lot of trouble...lol

Sourdough - the most important skill you have, and that you use daily is your brain, otherwise you wouldn't be where you are today, but when you lose your brawn you need your brain, common sense and knowledge to think of alternatives to do the job.
I don't think you'll need to worry about competent allies up there, you know already which you'd want on your team anytime.

Triple divide - most people won't make it to Alaska - they probably won't make it past a couple hundred miles of their home.

Angie - Common sense dictates that smart people from the north would not head to the south, because why head to a place of a higher poplulation and a greater chance of problems? Only the unprepared, lazy, freeloading people might think that way compounding the problem there already. By the time any strange survivors make it to my place here in the northern half of Alberta they will already have been thinned through natural selection.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Sanza said:


> Invalid - I don't care if the cook is Julia Child or Gordon Ramsey, if they don't know how to cook over an open fire or wood stove decently then they're good for nothing. You need someone that knows how to use an axe too.
> And please don't be fooled into thinking that going off into the bush for a few days a year is like living primatively year round in all seasons. Winter survival training would be a good prep.


 I don't know from Julia Child or Gordon Ramsey, but I do know I've been saying the same thing about a good cook on both of these threads. Especially someone that can bake well outside. Hot fresh bread lifts the spirits quite a bit.

As for the few days thing. I'm not survivor man, I don't go out for 3 or whatever days and wing it. On average I'll go for a month or so, which is plenty to know if you'll make it or not in the winter. It's been a while since I've done a hard month in the Maine winter though, bet I'd lose 20 lbs in the first week. That would likely decide if I made it through the whole month or not.

I've honestly got enough skill to survive in a forest environment so long as my luck allows. One broken leg or bear mauling and... Now, move me to the tundra or the desert and forget about it. I'd put up a fight, but I'd be food I think.


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

') Fresh baked goods are important - I guess that's why I made myself an outdoor clay oven


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## triple divide (Jan 7, 2010)

I guess maybe what I need to say is; I have a good network of neighbors up here. A SHTF situation somewhere else, say severe weather for example, is taken in stride up here. Different from my experiences in NC and Pa.

As far as th OP. I have my team in place. It goes like this. God, my wife, and my 15 dogs. After God, my wife and myself share dictatorial responsibilities over the remainder. Any larger "team" involving other persons would require a level of discipline from them not unlike military discipline. Without a sincere "Gung-Ho" attitude from everyone I personally couldn't see a "team" lasting long. 

I could be wrong though.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

Sanza said:


> ') Fresh baked goods are important - I guess that's why I made myself an outdoor clay oven


I do NOT have a oven (I have used a Coleman Camp stove in the cabin for the last 12 years) However I bake in a dutch oven on top of the wood heat stove, but only in the winter.


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

The problem as I see it is that dictatorships, after a while, will almost inevitably go sour - the dictator starts to see themselves as better than others, starts to expect more privileges, to do less work because they are the "thinker" etc etc. That is where civil wars start - the worker bees will start to feel that they are being hard done by, problems start.

I have many skills, some I have discussed on here, others I haven't, for my own particular environment - but I would not enter a group which took away my freedom of choice in any way further than it already is in modern society.

By the same token, I can't imagine leading a group that way either - just isn't my way. 

Don't know


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

I guess I'm one of those dictator types - my place, certain rules are non-negotiable - although DW is my dictator of sorts. I don't see us having a formal group but rather allowing certain family and friends to join us with the expectation that people are going to carry their weight as best they can. Others I would decide on a case by case basis. In a rural community I view it as more of how do you cooperate with the folks who are already living around you.

If it came to a situation where I was in the position of joining another group of people then I would leave it as I would decide based on the circumstances. I'm not the type to grovel to join anything. At the end of this game called life we all die regardless. To Hoggies point, I would expect that in a survival situation I might not enjoy all the rights afforded in modern society. I do reserve the right to choose what I give up <G>.


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## Pouncer (Oct 28, 2006)

So, I have been thinking about this since I posted. The issue of leadership is one we should all consider, really, and it's good to think these things through.

If people were sheltering at my place, I am thinking that I'd pretty much allow people to run with what they know. (Everyone who has said they'll come here has a different skill set, basically) That is, when I don't know what the right course is, I would defer to someone who does. There are things I am very very good at, such as the gardening and food preservation and so forth, but I can't build things very well, would have problems laying out watch rotations and so forth, for example. However, I would want this to be somewhat by consensus....that is, everyone talk it out, with my word being the deciding vote. 

Of course, that is a lot of responsibility for one person when you think about it. But, I think it's a bad idea to let ego stand in the way of utilizing ALL the resources you have at hand.....and that includes others with special abilities or skills. 

Now, I'm not saying I don't have what it takes to dominate others and be a boss-ask anyone who knows me IRL and they'll tell you the same, lol But I am not a fool either. While I might have the concept of a FOP, I don't have the skills to build an effective one on my own, see? Firing lanes I know the concept, but not how to make sure that the approaches are channeled to where they will be the most effective for my location, and so forth.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

Pouncer said:


> If people were sheltering at my place, I am thinking that I'd pretty much allow people to run with what they know. (Everyone who has said they'll come here has a different skill set, basically) That is, when I don't know what the right course is, I would defer to someone who does.



My problem with groups in Alaska is food. Where does the food come from to feed the members of the group till their "Key Skill" is needed.......? My other problem is if you have a finite amount of food and people bring their children and friends......now what...????


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Sourdough said:


> My problem with groups in Alaska is food. Where does the food come from to feed the members of the group till their "Key Skill" is needed.......? My other problem is if you have a finite amount of food and people bring their children and friends......now what...????


 I agree with this even here in the lower 48. I'd expect someone picked for their main skill would still have other jobs as well. For example, An ER nurse wouldn't sit around until someone was hurt. They'd be expected to pull weeds and feed critters and such just like everyone else. If they lacked serious off the land skills they could be put to useful tasks as they gained more knowledge, because hey, anyone can pull weeds or dig a latrine.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

While we have a better climate and natural resources than Alaska for survival here in Western Washington, we also have a way higher population of the most dangerous, treacherous predator in the world, Man. 

Team building, sense of community all sticking together for our common good. It all sounds highly noble, but how many folks here have actually put their boots on the ground, taken point to put together teams to work for the common good of your neighborhood or community?

People are not altruistic. Even though many believe themselves to have a concrete moral standard, they don't. They can be bought cheaply, they will sell your children to the unspeakable if it will increase their comfort for a day. They will believe any lie if the truth is uncomfortable. Never underestimate the depths of treachery in the hearts of men. It's bad enough now in good times. How much worse will it be if they miss a meal?

Do any of you have the experience and know the exhaustion of maintaining authority over large groups of people in a group survival situation? It's one thing to state, "My way or tough nuggies." How do you handle those who don't accept the nuggies, or their enabling relatives who all want tender nuggies?


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Laura,

I'll answer your question regarding managing groups and maintaining authority (or respecting authority) in extreme situations in the affirmative. There is one significant difference between that and what we are discussing - The people I work with and train (I manage an incident response team as part of what I do) do this as part of their professional work. I've been on-call for incident response 24 hours a day/7 days a week/365 days a year for 13 years with only a few exceptions. You don't manage by imposing authority, you manage because people recognize your authority. People may have stronger skills than I do in specific areas but they respect my ability to manage everybody as a team under incredibly stressful circumstances. 

I recognize that expecting "regular" people to get it in the same manner is probably not realistic. On the other hand I'm not looking at having a particularly large group at our place and certainly not random people.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Laura said:


> Do any of you have the experience and know the exhaustion of maintaining authority over large groups of people in a group survival situation? It's one thing to state, "My way or tough nuggies." How do you handle those who don't accept the nuggies, or their enabling relatives who all want tender nuggies?


 I've been in high stress life and death situations a few times and I know that most folks would collapse under that. But I'm not looking to take in most folks, and it's why I've thought about this before the SHTF. If I didn't vet the folks before hand how would I know they had the skills I need and the proper mindset to make it through?

As for how would I deal with someone that was out of hand? Depends on how out of hand and why. It could be a simple matter of giving them a few hours to settle down, it could reach the point you need to put one between their eyes. Depends.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Laura said:


> Do any of you have the experience and know the exhaustion of maintaining authority over large groups of people in a group survival situation? It's one thing to state, "My way or tough nuggies." How do you handle those who don't accept the nuggies, or their enabling relatives who all want tender nuggies?


I had an experience of being in a pseudo-leadership position. It was NOT during a crisis.

It was horrible.

People want their way. When people in the group disagree amongst themselves they still want their way anyhow. Then no matter what you do you have up to half of the group mad at you at one time. You can't please everyone all the time so that means you catch flack all the time. 

Another drawback is that people like to be led and turn you into some super-human who they expect can do anything they need. Then when you can't perform to often unrealistic expectations they get resentful. When you try to delegate work or even share in leadership/semi-step down people freak out and think they can't manage without you.

Not everyone is totally lost. Some people are leg hangers and just want extra attention to feel special. There are very few people who are low maintenance. Just my experience.

**Holy carp, did I just inadvertantly describe American politics?** :hysterical:


Maybe some sort of council system like some Native American tribes did. A group of elders or in a shtf scenario a group of the highest skilled forming a council. Maybe even households having a head represent them. Would be ideal in a group small enough to be able to vote by consensus.

Drawback is that people could align in cliques and make power plays. Always a risk of behind the scenes drama. 

Yep, would be messy indeed.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

Mike in Ohio said:


> Laura,
> 
> I'll answer your question regarding managing groups and maintaining authority (or respecting authority) in extreme situations in the affirmative. .


And if they were starving, and "YOU" looked more like a good BBQ dinner than a "Respected Authority".....??? I think your idea of a "Extreme Situations" is a Wee bit different than mine. See I keep trying to tell the Grizzly Bears in my yard to learn to respect my authority, and they just keep looking at me like "Dinner".


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Sourdough said:


> I am sorry, but I think 98% of this INTERNET survival stuff is just "Feel Good" Mental
> Exercise*.


That is a very interesting sentence, and I think you are correct in many ways. I look back to my childhood spent at my grandparents house, and they did not rely on fancy equipment or cases of bottled water or even fancy, costly survival gear. But they were self sufficient. They didn't have chain saws or even a tractor, yet they grew their own wheat, all their veggies, fruits, drug water from wells or the creek, raised rabbits, pigs, goats, cows....... I remember helping to make soap with water grandma poured over ashes and saved plus lard they melted off their own home grown pig in a cast iron kettle over a fire out in the yard. I remember them pouring ashes onto their "road" to cover the mud and "gravel" it with cinders and ashes.
Basic self survival has little to do with "equipment" and costly "preps" and a lot to do with just hard manual labor with a hoe, a horse plow, an ax, and just back breaking labor. 
I even remember my grandpa out there with a manual mower that he pushed and a cycle cutting grass to dry for hay. He would let some places grow to a good height then cut and dry them then stack into piles for hay in the barns. That can't be easy work year after year.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

The problem with groups of people is, everybody wants to be King.:thumb:


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## acde (Jul 25, 2011)

When faced with a shtf senerio, I would want to be surrounded with people who don't think it is beneath them to take directions from someone who has the experience and the know how to control the situation at hand, no matter the age or the gender. And a leader who is willing to let someone else improve on their ideas.
As far as hard workers, Farming was the hardest and most rewarding job i've ever had, 12 hr. days were a short day. lol
I may not last as long as some others, but my days will be happy and loving ones. no matter how hard the work load gets.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

We all know who and what we'd want under ideal shtf conditions in some far off neverland. 

How 'bout a bit of reality? Right now, inventory the people, their skills and assets and personalities, who are in your home, on your property, and on the surrounding properties. This is your Survival Team.

Grizzly bears don't sound like that bad of an option sometimes.


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## hoggie (Feb 11, 2007)

Laura said:


> Grizzly bears don't sound like that bad of an option sometimes.


LOL - if you're used to working around them, I bet they'd make one heck of a security team :runforhills:


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

hoggie said:


> LOL - if you're used to working around them, I bet they'd make one heck of a security team :runforhills:


At least bears are honest.


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## Pouncer (Oct 28, 2006)

The people arriving at my place will have different skills, and hopefully plenty of supplies. They each know that is the price, no exceptions. For that reason, one niece will arrive and the other won't. And so on. 

The reason they come to my place? Size of house, and the fact that I have a garden and greenhouse. I would be sorely pressed to grow enough groceries for over a dozen people, but it *could* be done. Even on my five acre lot, covered with trees for the most part. Would it be hard? Oh my gosh yes!! If shtf in the fall? They better bring 8 to 10 mos worth of groceries with them-timing is everything here. 

As far as "community" goes, I am pretty sure it would boil down to neighbors helping neighbors here. We are spread out further than the norm, on one to five acre lots, so it's not like we have adjoining lawns and houses 20 foot apart. Most of us have a wide swath of trees along the lot lines, for privacy. I see a neighbor patrol, covering the usual access points to our area right away. (I hope)


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Sourdough said:


> And if they were starving, and "YOU" looked more like a good BBQ dinner than a "Respected Authority".....??? I think your idea of a "Extreme Situations" is a Wee bit different than mine. See I keep trying to tell the Grizzly Bears in my yard to learn to respect my authority, and they just keep looking at me like "Dinner".


Despite what some people here seem to think, ammunition is cheap and high capacity weapons are available legally and readily. 

You just point a Saiga shotgun with a 20 round drum magazine loaded with slugs at your Grizzlys and I guarantee they will lie down and go to sleep permanently once you start pulling the trigger. Need to do so at a longer distance? Plenty of other options. 

The discussion was about putting together a team, not about dealing with randoms.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Laura said:


> While we have a better climate and natural resources than Alaska for survival here in Western Washington, we also have a way higher population of the most dangerous, treacherous predator in the world, Man.
> 
> Team building, sense of community all sticking together for our common good. It all sounds highly noble, but how many folks here have actually put their boots on the ground, taken point to put together teams to work for the common good of your neighborhood or community?
> 
> ...


I think I'd choose to be in a place with abundant resources and humans (that I could theoretically avoid, through various means... and, their populations would dwindle quickly) over an area, such as Alaska, with meager resources and few people. There is lots of game in AK, but a lot of it's migrational in nature, and not guaranteed. Let Law and Order disappear, and it's game on... think many fish would migrate upstreams if the 'man' wasn't around... everyone's traps would be out, to catch every single fish they could. Some areas obviously would avoid the 'Depression Era Game Crash' scenario... but, remember the Golden Anchorage and Fairbanks hordes aren't going to go quietly... they're going to run every river, taking every moose in sight, and atv's will be out in force, getting the rest, and heaven help the caribou herds.

Let some of these needful resources be stripped out of a hundred or thousand mile area, in AK, and it's a long mush to someplace else... that might've already been stripped bare. In the lower 48, same things will happen, but there's more game to start with... so it could be a wash.

On the noogies...
I led several groups of rookies on weeklong wilderness treks, that required dangerous river and mountain crossings. Several thought they 'knew' more than I did, and not being much a confrontational sort of guy, I gave them enough rope to get into trouble. After one almost drowned, (and I had to go in after him) and another led us into a swamp (knew more about maps than me), they finally acquiesced to my leadership. Nothing like arguing from a position of weakness to get my inner chucklehead running overtime... Whether it'd 'work' in a shtf scenario... giving enough rope might mean someone dies, literally.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

Mike in Ohio said:


> Despite what some people here seem to think, ammunition is cheap and high capacity weapons are available legally and readily.
> 
> You just point a Saiga shotgun with a 20 round drum magazine loaded with slugs at your Grizzlys and I guarantee they will lie down and go to sleep permanently once you start pulling the trigger. Need to do so at a longer distance? Plenty of other options.
> 
> The discussion was about putting together a team, not about dealing with randoms.


You give the impression of someone with a lot of bear experience, is it all internet learning.......??? In my 34 years as a professional hunter, I have harvested between 250 and 300 bears. And for the record the discussion was at that point about maintaining authority......:nana::nana::nana:


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## janetn (Apr 26, 2012)

Why are we talking about wilderness treks and the like? Im not heading out to the woods to eat pine nuts and moss. I have a perfectly good house with a greenhouse and garden, with a few acres to boot. I can certainly cut and split wood even at my age. But the truth is my kids are going to be our house and although they have zip homesteading skills they can and will learn. Families are your group then your neighbors are your community, this was the way it was as late as the 1940s. Also in most rural areas your neighbors have at least some of the skills needed to survive in an 1800s lifestyle. We are not going back to the caveman era just preindustrial. The Amish manage to live just fine, and they are happy too! Were going to all be Amish! It will be different but not as grim as some portray. I plan on being happy -Frankly Id rather work my homestead than go to a job.

Hard work yes - impossible and grim no. Humans are adaptable, I hear they can even live without cell phones TVs and computers. Ive even heard tell they can do just fine without electricity and and indoor plumbing. For some its going to be a culture shock and they are going to have to aquire new skills. But I think a great many more than we realise will do remarkably well. 

Ive seen people rise to the occasion more than once - adversity often builds charecter. Having family as my group will cause problems - but not ones that cant be overcome. Life is never all peaches and cream anyway. Were just exchanging one set of problems for another. Look at third world countries - somehow those folks seem to get by with much less than we will have if TSHTF.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

janetn said:


> Why are we talking about wilderness treks and the like? Im not heading out to the woods to eat pine nuts and moss. I have a perfectly good house with a greenhouse and garden, with a few acres to boot. I can certainly cut and split wood even at my age. But the truth is my kids are going to be our house and although they have zip homesteading skills they can and will learn. Families are your group then your neighbors are your community, this was the way it was as late as the 1940s. Also in most rural areas your neighbors have at least some of the skills needed to survive in an 1800s lifestyle. We are not going back to the caveman era just preindustrial. The Amish manage to live just fine, and they are happy too! Were going to all be Amish! It will be different but not as grim as some portray. I plan on being happy -Frankly Id rather work my homestead than go to a job.
> 
> Hard work yes - impossible and grim no. Humans are adaptable, I hear they can even live without cell phones TVs and computers. Ive even heard tell they can do just fine without electricity and and indoor plumbing. For some its going to be a culture shock and they are going to have to aquire new skills. But I think a great many more than we realise will do remarkably well.
> 
> Ive seen people rise to the occasion more than once - adversity often builds charecter. Having family as my group will cause problems - but not ones that cant be overcome. Life is never all peaches and cream anyway. Were just exchanging one set of problems for another. Look at third world countries - somehow those folks seem to get by with much less than we will have if TSHTF.



I agree these people are wacked in the head, I have no idea what they are thinking, I trust my goverment to care for all of my needs. That said, just on the outside chance that my goverment happens to be busy when I need them, yesterday I buried 106 Mountain House freeze dried meals. It is just a "Game", for in the end we are all going to die.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

sourdough - if you think we are all whacked in the head, and you trust the government, apparently this might not be a forum that fits your thinking.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

AngieM2 said:


> sourdough - if you think we are all whacked in the head, and you trust the government, apparently this might not be a forum that fits your thinking.


You may very well be correct. Perhaps you could suggest a forum where I might learn the basics of this prepping theory.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Sourdough said:


> You may very well be correct. Perhaps you could suggest a forum where I might learn the basics of this prepping theory.


Nope, 
just don't put us down and stay,
or if we are "these people" other places with out "these people" might be a happier place for you.

If "these people" are not us, I apologize.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

The hardest thing to avoid when the SHTF will be the election of the next set of PTB.

All this talk of hard unending work. You have really bought into the lie. Living primitive was a life of leisure and plenty. Hunter/gatherers or subsistence farming takes very little of your time compared to modern life. Modern life has too many parasites. The parasites die in rapid fashion when the food dries up. Yes, modern life is more "secure" but it isn't less work or effort.

To plant enough food for just my family would mean planting 1 acre and harvesting hay from about 5 acres. Tilling and planting by hand would take about 2 weeks. Harvesting hay would take about a month. Putting up the food would take several weeks of intermittent labor. 

Don't compare it to today with half your labor going to the government.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Sourdough said:


> You may very well be correct. Perhaps you could suggest a forum where I might learn the basics of this prepping theory.


You do realize that once the planes stop.. Life in most of the Alaskan bush is over. There are reasons the aboriginals weren't in great numbers. Life was hard and food is scarce.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

stanb999 said:


> The hardest thing to avoid when the SHTF will be the election of the next set of PTB.
> 
> All this talk of hard unending work. You have really bought into the lie. Living primitive was a life of leisure and plenty. Hunter/gatherers or subsistence farming takes very little of your time compared to modern life. Modern life has too many parasites. The parasites die in rapid fashion when the food dries up. Yes, modern life is more "secure" but it isn't less work or effort.
> 
> ...


 You make an interesting point here. Thoreau made the same comparison many years ago. A man works his whole life to own a small home with the modern conveniences. For these things he labors 8-10-12 hours a day 5-7 days a week often for someone elses gain. He buys his food, he buys his furniture, he buys his clothes. For all this he must labor.

Indians spent a month or two gathering the material for a decent longhouse and then build a home. His home can be taken down and moved when food is scarce of the owner simply wants a new view. These same men labor very hard for food, for about 1 month a year. They have more free time and social time than the modern man who's life is suppose to be so much easier.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

stanb999 said:


> You do realize that once the planes stop.. Life in most of the Alaskan bush is over. There are reasons the aboriginals weren't in great numbers. Life was hard and food is scarce.


Is this a subject you know a lot about, or have only read about.......????


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Sourdough said:


> Is this a subject you know a lot about, or have only read about.......????


 Does a person have to live in Alaska to understand life in Alaska 100 years ago?


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

InvalidID said:


> Does a person have to live in Alaska to understand life in Alaska 100 years ago?



No.......But it is helpful to have knowledge about life in Alaska today, if one is going to expound on the subject. If one states that without aircraft forwarding supplies to the remote parts of Alaska, he should have some degree of knowledge about life in remote Alaska.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

Sourdough said:


> No.......But it is helpful to have knowledge about life in Alaska today, if one is going to expound on the subject. If one states that without aircraft forwarding supplies to the remote parts of Alaska, he should have some degree of knowledge about life in remote Alaska.


 I suppose I can agree with that to some extent. However, I also believe you can take first hand accounts and extrapolate from there. You yourself have said most folks wouldn't survive up there post SHTF as the work is too hard and food is scare.

The few times I've gone up to visit with family I've noticed the serious dependence on bush pilots for survival. While I'm sure dog teams could take over a good portion of that roll, I honestly don't think the majority of the people there today would be able to survive the switch over. I also don't think the bulk of the 'city' folks would survive the lack of fuel oil and gasoline, let alone the losing the shipments of food and supplies.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Sourdough said:


> No.......But it is helpful to have knowledge about life in Alaska today, if one is going to expound on the subject. If one states that without aircraft forwarding supplies to the remote parts of Alaska, he should have some degree of knowledge about life in remote Alaska.


How will you find time to forge steel? When your time is spent gathering wood for heat? No Ax for you!

How will you gather fibers? You know the plants that don't grow? No Cloths except skins for you!

How will you have oils for light. The whales are gone largely. What is your plan? How many months of dark was that?

How will you do more than barely get by till death? Is that the plan?
The reason people live there now is modern convenience and transport. Without it the land is a frozen waste as the Russians saw it 100 years ago.

I on the other hand live on a farm that was a farm in the 1700's. I live in a house made 100 years before electric was widely available. I have wood, water, minerals, and the ability to farm as they did before. Is this the best homesteading land. Not likely. Me and mine will not only survive but thrive!


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

InvalidID said:


> I suppose I can agree with that to some extent. However, I also believe you can take first hand accounts and extrapolate from there. You yourself have said most folks wouldn't survive up there post SHTF as the work is too hard and food is scare.
> 
> The few times I've gone up to visit with family I've noticed the serious dependence on bush pilots for survival. While I'm sure dog teams could take over a good portion of that roll, I honestly don't think the majority of the people there today would be able to survive the switch over. I also don't think the bulk of the 'city' folks would survive the lack of fuel oil and gasoline, let alone the losing the shipments of food and supplies.


I think that that is a valid assesment. I was a "Bush Pilot" for many years, and now retired.


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## Pouncer (Oct 28, 2006)

Stan, that's a little rude, imo.

If things do turn south, it does not mean that all resources, supplies, equipment, and knowledge vanish into thin air. 

The state produces about five percent of it's own food, based on current consumption and population. In my mind, I presume that any great shake out is going to mean tens of thousands will leave. Eventually, Bush communities will abandon the modern "white man's way" and return to traditional hunting/gathering, which meant a nomadic lifestyle, following the herds and fishes, and foraging in season. Down in the more populated areas, there are thousands of acres cleared that could be turned to food production that were forested tracts just 25 years ago. The knowledge of how to produce sustainable gardens here is not going to magically disappear either, a growing number of people are doing just that, on a small scale. Gardening has never been so popular since the Colony days, imo.

Is it going to be hard? Yes.

Is it going to suck? Yes.

Will starvation be a threat? Yes, of course.

Can it be done? Yes, it can. The natural resources are not going to vanish into thin air either, and Alaskans are not only independent, but creative and adaptable and inventive. I have faith in my fellow Alaskans.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I do think Alaska survival and rest of the USA survival are really really different now, and would be moreso after whatever causes a really large reset change of our economy and way of life and availability of resources.

So, comparing Alaska and getting superior about it, does not relate to the rest of the US; and being rest of US most of us have no prior personnal knowledge of how Alaska would get through things.

I do think reason can lead some of us to use history, the news and posts we've seen here, and currently available items, to make reasonable assumptions about some things - but some people here, apparently have more skills for their area so they know THEIR area and are trying to overlay those conditions elsewhere - that is unreasonable and doesn't make sense.

I'd say someone in the far north, would fair better in the far north and maybe some areas a bit south of there, and their team would be better being folks that are of that nature.

And swamp people of Louisana and Florida and such, would do better in their areas and could teach new comers to that area things.

If you are in an area, practical knowledge shared is appreciated for that area - but only if shared nicely. 

so, looks as if there are very few teams here, we are all to individually strong - and if a team is needed, we will have to be - cause there will be people we want to take care of; and some we need to repel.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

After the great die off..with the exception of a lack of medical care (disease and injury) and times of lean (bad growing season) I think life would improve. I don't see shtf as such a frightening unkown unless I am at the epicenter.

Old fashioned story telling around a fire, extended families working the soil side by side instead of commuting to be trapped in a cubicle. Parents raising children instead of sending them to daycare. No texting while in the middle of a conversation. Community would return to it's true definition, community. Freedom, ultimate freedom. Sure the transition would be hard but it would be for the better good.

Roving bands of thieves would be an issue, which is why forming a group makes sense, for security and shared toil.

I think some here are projecting their own perceptions and fears for others reality and in the process assuming others are clueless for disagreeing.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

hintonlady said:


> After the great die off..with the exception of a lack of medical care (disease and injury) and times of lean (bad growing season) I think life would improve. I don't see shtf as such a frightening unkown unless I am at the epicenter.
> 
> Old fashioned story telling around a fire, extended families working the soil side by side instead of commuting to be trapped in a cubicle. Parents raising children instead of sending them to daycare. No texting while in the middle of a conversation. Community would return to it's true definition, community. Freedom, ultimate freedom. Sure the transition would be hard but it would be for the better good.
> 
> ...


and there would have to be front porches and back porches to sit and shell green beans, and husk corn and relax after a long day. Being outside cause inside is still too hot. And knowing family and friends better.

(yes, I know I'm romancing it a bit - but there can be good out of what some/many find hard to adapt to. And always selling porches and what they can do for a person).


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

AngieM2 said:


> and there would have to be front porches and back porches to sit and shell green beans, and husk corn and relax after a long day. Being outside cause inside is still too hot. And knowing family and friends better.
> 
> (yes, I know I'm romancing it a bit - but there can be good out of what some/many find hard to adapt to. And always selling porches and what they can do for a person).


 and yummy well water that has been cooled in the root cellar.

Can you imagine how amazing the seasons first fruit would be after a long winter? Probably the best berry/apple/peach that you have EVER tasted.

Harvest festivals, barn dances, singing while drinking hooch, meeting your neighbor on the road because you both set out walking to go to the others house for visitin' at the same time. (had that last one happen in real life, never forget it)


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## pumpkin (May 8, 2012)

The skills and team threads have got me thinking and I think that one very important skill to have and one very important part of team work is listening. Flexibility and thinking outside the box.

People who live in the north will do better in the north and people who live in a swamp will do better in the swamp or the prairies because that is our experience. But who says we will end up where we are? Who says that the 300 year old farm or even the land is going to be there when the smoke clears. And all your family may be dead or missing or all of you injured or sick. And maybe we will be like Syria where there is no place to run and we are being shelled and all we can do is hide and run when we get the chance.

Maybe there will be a big freeze like in that movie and everyone in Canada and the US will have to head for Mexico and the jungles of Central and South America. Or maybe there will be a volcanic eruption that destroys everything in the center leaving only the mountains and deserts. I would not do well in the jungle. The first big spider and I will die on the spot.

Sourdough had some interesting things to say about living in Alaska and I gather that he actually lives this life - backwoods bushpilot type. I will listen to what he has to say. If he thinks I am going to be too weak for the hard work he may be very right. 

I can read about what life was like 100 years ago or living in the wild but experience gives you a real perspective. I read that there was no toilet paper in the old days and that grass or leaves were used. I understand because I can imagine. But the actual experience is something else. We forgot toilet paper on a hike and using leaves for toilet paper was nothing like I imagined!


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## pumpkin (May 8, 2012)

I like the idylic picture painted of story telling around the fire and no cell phones but have you ever gone camping with a snarky teen who feels that life without a text is death? The Little House life would suit me to a tee but there are going to be a lot of unhappy people who don't want to live this life and will be fighting it all the way. Making my idyl not so idylic.

"Harvest festivals, barn dances, singing while drinking hooch, meeting your neighbor on the road because you both set out walking to go to the others house for visitin' at the same time."

"Can you imagine how amazing the seasons first fruit would be after a long winter? Probably the best berry/apple/peach that you have EVER tasted."

If we want to live this way now we can. We don't have to wait for a disaster to change what we do. Just don't preserve much fruit or buy it and wait for the season. A lot of people are doing this - buying locally or growing their own and only using seasonal produce. I don't need grapes in January however I personally would be feeling so deprived by the time the first strawberry was ripe that I would trample anyone who got between me and it. Not really how I want to live.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

janetn said:


> Why are we talking about wilderness treks and the like? Im not heading out to the woods to eat pine nuts and moss. I have a perfectly good house with a greenhouse and garden, with a few acres to boot. I can certainly cut and split wood even at my age. But the truth is my kids are going to be our house and although they have zip homesteading skills they can and will learn. Families are your group then your neighbors are your community, this was the way it was as late as the 1940s. Also in most rural areas your neighbors have at least some of the skills needed to survive in an 1800s lifestyle. We are not going back to the caveman era just preindustrial. The Amish manage to live just fine, and they are happy too! Were going to all be Amish! It will be different but not as grim as some portray. I plan on being happy -Frankly Id rather work my homestead than go to a job.
> 
> Hard work yes - impossible and grim no. Humans are adaptable, I hear they can even live without cell phones TVs and computers. Ive even heard tell they can do just fine without electricity and and indoor plumbing. For some its going to be a culture shock and they are going to have to aquire new skills. But I think a great many more than we realise will do remarkably well.
> 
> Ive seen people rise to the occasion more than once - adversity often builds charecter. Having family as my group will cause problems - but not ones that cant be overcome. Life is never all peaches and cream anyway. Were just exchanging one set of problems for another. Look at third world countries - somehow those folks seem to get by with much less than we will have if TSHTF.


And what happens if you have to evacuate due to forest fires, tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes? Would you be able to survive if you did not have your garden or home?


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

You're right, Pumpkin, some of us are already living it, sitting on our porches, eating what we grow and teaching our kids to grow food and milk cows. We already know our neighbors and how we work together for our common good in our isolated, rural neigborhood, Preppers' Paradise.

I live in the middle and talk to everyone.

These two valuable neighbors, although they are members of the same church, are feuding. They refuse to speak, apologize, make amends or work on the same project together. They are both neccessary. Their issue is STUPID!

This end of the neighborhood doesn't talk to that end of the neighborhood. That person says this other family is ---and come TEOTWAWKI, she's putting a bullet in all of them.........She's also the survivalist who blabs to everybody, including complete strangers, about her extensive preps. 

I own the water company. When the pump started acting up I called everyone and let them know we had less than 24 hours and it was going out of service, fill containers, jugs, tubs and barrels. It took us 5 days and $5,000 to get the water going again. I was the only one with stored water. 

I'm out there showing the men how to pull the pipe when the women came over to whine about no water. (day 1) I reminded them I had called and told them to fill up everything they had with water. The well administrator's wife, (blink, blink) "I don't have any containers for water." (blink, blink)

There's a house and property for sale here. Anybody interested?

To be fair, we DO work well together against outside threats, there are a lot of tractors here, and we women of the neighborhood have quite the reputation for the methods we use to deal with stuff. The reputation is so bad, I'm considered the sane and reasonable one.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

Laura said:


> The reputation is so bad, I'm considered the sane and reasonable one.


I suggest you take urgent action, to correct this...................:hysterical::hysterical:


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Sourdough said:


> I suggest you take urgent action, to correct this...................:hysterical::hysterical:


I try. 

The local deputies won't look me in the eye, their shoes are too interesting.

I made the lip quiver on a federal agent without losing my smile, then punked 30 of them. Those Tin Star Cowboys are still mad.... but respectful.

If and when anyone brings up the valuable resource pile, auxillary pasture or other survival neccessities out in public view, I lament over my love of peacocks, how a dozen of them would be wonderful addition to the neighborhood.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Sourdough said:


> You give the impression of someone with a lot of bear experience, is it all internet learning.......??? In my 34 years as a professional hunter, I have harvested between 250 and 300 bears. And for the record the discussion was at that point about maintaining authority......:nana::nana::nana:


You give the impression of someone who is a troll. The discussion was about leadership, authority and groups of people ("The team"). You decided to interject bears. I gave my answer as to how I would deal with the situation you presented. I am mightely impressed at your professional hunting experience.... out of curiosity, just how many of the bears you harvested were armed and shooting back? And how many did you reason with?

We have black bears around here and they generally leave you alone if you leave them alone. I have no need to harvest them as deer are plentiful and bears are not.

We all bow down to your superior capabilities to harvest bear. You are a god among men. You will survive on your own in the wilderness or create a cult around you. At the end of the day it doesn't mean a whit to me.... you don't roam on my range.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Bear management is an important part of survival. Not just for personal safety, but for the protection of our food bearing crops and trees and our timber. Bears do a lot of damage.

We can coexist for years with sweet little Mama Black Bear, but as soon as she breaks a tooth, gets an infection and it hurts to eat, she's gonna be grumpy, REAL grumpy. She's not gonna want to share the berry patch with you. She gonna go for the easy meal and her nose is going to lead her to that pan of lasagna you just pulled from your oven. 

You are aware Mama Bear can remove a window from a building and open a camp trailer lke a can of sardines with her bear hands?

Personally, I LIKE bear meat and so do my kids. When taking out a problem bear, you also need to make sure its territory is taken over by somebody you can live with and not by a bigger, badder predator.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Laura said:


> Bear management is an important part of survival. Not just for personal safety, but for the protection of our food bearing crops and trees and our timber. Bears do a lot of damage.
> 
> We can coexist for years with sweet little Mama Black Bear, but as soon as she breaks a tooth, gets an infection and it hurts to eat, she's gonna be grumpy, REAL grumpy. She's not gonna want to share the berry patch with you. She gonna go for the easy meal and her nose is going to lead her to that pan of lasagna you just pulled from your oven.
> 
> ...


And that is one of the reasons one goes armed. It is also the exception rather than the rule. 

I think I posted a while back about the time I was walking and checking fence. Got towards the back of our Southern fence line (about a half mile from the cabin) and encountered a good sized coyote - one of the ones that had cross bred with wolves (interesting story about the coyotes that migrated north around the Great Lakes and the ones that migrated South around them). That thing easily went 75+ lbs. One of the few times I was not carrying a weapon with me while doing chores.

Back on track.... Sourdough was trolling as far as I'm concerned. If he wants to start a thread about managing bears then he should go for it. If he wants to thump his chest on this thread to prove how manly he is and how everyone else is going to have an epic fail then there is not much use in trying to have a discussion with him.

In building a team you need people that can work together. They don't have to like each other they just have to be able to work with each other. In emergency situations it generally works out better if there is a clear chain of command. I can lead or follow but I don't buy into this democracy notion (we all get to make the decisions) under the kind of circumstances indicated at the start of the thread.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Mike, a marauder is a marauder, two legger or four. A trusted team member can go Grumpy Bear behind your back quickly. People behave more like coyotes than coyotes do. 

Do you think the illusion of of the thin veil of civility will last?

If you can't handle a bit of challenge on the internet now without slinging from a position of weakness, what will happen to you and yours when the RL situations blow up in your face?

Kumbuya, Bro.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

enough please. 

Back to the team aspect of this thread.


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

A century or more ago, lots of people were listed on the census as laborers. When you heard them talk, they would do a large variety of jobs, depending on the season and availability. Someone could help with harvests in summer and autumn, turn their hand at iron working, leather work, sewing, Brewing beer or making wine, or making whisky, midwife,whatever. They got employment wherever they could, but having a single career like folks today have was rare.

And in those days, people were far more prepared for survival. They stored up food as a matter of living in the days before supermarkets. They knew how to make or at least repair what they have.

We are the closest thing to those multi-talented people around today. We really need to teach people these skills NOW. I've been teaching people to do home canning since the 80's, occasionally. When they see my canned goods or hear me mention it. I'm going to step up my efforts. Especially with family.

Hubby and I were talking about it last night. I had posted the LDS manual. We aren't Mormons, but in a SHTF scenario, we would rather be surrounded by Mormons or other preppers, than by a bunch of unprepared folks. So lets do what we can to teach others to prep.


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