# Caucasion Shepherd...WHY??



## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...tNTJBg&usg=AFQjCNF026kZ43Xcz8PFPBWHvk9gQkez0w

Holy cow. Why on earth would that one guy have a dog that big, that aggressive, that he cannot even walk or hold back from traffic???

I imagine there is a place for these guys, and they are surely beautiful, but...a dog that big, that is already aggressive by 3 weeks of age?? Yikes!

These guys make my chows look docile, lol. Of course I am sure they are wonderful with their families, flocks etc. This guy in the video is on a disaster course, though.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

That whole video was a disaster. From the woman who raised the dogs, the people on the street letting their child near the dog, and especially the last man.

I was hopeing they wouldn't make it here. Just wishful thinking. You will be seeing more of them and reading more about them soon.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

I think they look great aside from the lack of *good* socialization the last guy in the vid appears to have done. I'd consider them if I ever get a farm again. Definitely not a condo dog though and I think we have a weight limit of 80 lbs that my akita just slips under. Hoping to move within 2 years and get a new puppy since my akita turned 5. I want to introduce a puppy while she's still young enough to be playful and not a grouchy older dog. We were looking at timberwolf x akita for our next dog and possibly breeding them. Someone in the area has listed them on hoobly a few times but I keep forgetting to save their email.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

If you lived way, way out in the boonies, and you also live in constant fear of human criminals, well then, there is the dog for you. 

The guy in the suburbs with one is nuts. Going for a baby in the stroller and he can't hold back the dog??? That is a very sad headline waiting to happen.


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## romysbaskets (Aug 29, 2009)

I have to agree that these aggressive dogs are not your average farm dog! I question why anyone would own a dog that they can not control? They are beautiful but for most people, they would be a mistake!

We had a St. Bernard who was a great Farm dog, a trim 150 lbs of very strong dog. He was friendly, obedient, sweet natured and only twice did he advance to attack but both times we were able to simply use a voice command for him to stop. Once was when a stranger to him (a teacher actually) stopped by our home and we were inside. This man just walked over and picked up my 5 yr old son who was in the yard by the swing set. It was a neighbor who ran a little school and we had let our son attend a few days a week as his siblings were all in public school at that time. He had dropped by the first time to go over a schedule change. He did not even knock on my door, he just picked up my son, only to have our St. Bernard rush him, he put down our son and that teddy bear of a dog put this man on his back and held him down with both paws on either shoulder. The man was not hurt and Alexander let him up upon my command. The man apologized to us and it showed us our dogs protective nature because he had behaved so docile with people up to this point! He also advanced on a man holding a stanchion with a metal square on the end at a boat yard. He stopped with a simple voice command. He never pulled us down or displayed behavior like the Mountain Dog in the video. We have never had a dog we could not control! Our St Bernard was perfect on a leash and never pulled anyone down, not even once!

My son's 55 lb dog can knock my husband down when they play. On a leash you do not even know you have a dog on it, he never pulls, he walks beside you with the leash slack at all times. He is very protective but is absolutely wonderful with voice commands. He never pulls anyone on a leash! Imagine having 180 lbs of pure strength to contend with yanking you around? No matter what protection a person needs, they have to be able to control their own dog. I mean the cars he tried to attack, how he behaved by baby strollers (scary)? There was not good judgement displayed on this dog's part. If you have a dog that can be aggressive, they must be able to act on voice command and be on pristine behavior with a leash. Imagine that man being pulled into a busy street? He could get hit by a car! 

At no time did I see that dog listen to the man! That dog was very dangerous and will most likely hurt his owner even if it just because he drags him around!


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

The breeder looks like she controls them just fine. What a dog like that needs is not isolation on a farm but trips everywhere you go, obedience classes, seeing children-sitting at a park with a playground is good, going in what stores they are allowed... They need taught what should be protected against and what is normal traffic or harmless. I spent years and a few $100 for classes putting that knowledge in to my akita. The guy at the end of the vid did not and that's how you get a dog that takes everything as a threat and doesn't look to you to confirm it or not.


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## romysbaskets (Aug 29, 2009)

akane said:


> The breeder looks like she controls them just fine. What a dog like that needs is not isolation on a farm but trips everywhere you go, obedience classes, seeing children-sitting at a park with a playground is good, going in what stores they are allowed... They need taught what should be protected against and what is normal traffic or harmless. I spent years and a few $100 for classes putting that knowledge in to my akita. The guy at the end of the vid did not and that's how you get a dog that takes everything as a threat and doesn't look to you to confirm it or not.


Imagine a dog that size trying to pull away from anyone even once??? Unless you are one massively strong man, this dog would win a tug of war! That lady only showed a dog that was an ADULT dog in public that she had worked with daily for how long with no threat of any kind! She never showed that dog with anyone that even posed some type of threat to demonstrate her control on her own property. She only showed that dog around friendly nice people. I did not find that to be a good demonstration of that particular dogs behavior...Imagine what these dogs are like before they are full grown and undergoing what must be very extensive training? Akitas can be upward to 150 lbs for the largest Big Bears but most are closer to 100 lbs. I bet you have a great dog you have put time and love into. Not all people will go to that much effort....nor do they have the time or take the time! Just like the guy that they showed, this was way more dog than he needs or should have!

I have been fortunate not to have to spend money on dog training (there are dogs every where that do need this). Since I was growing up we had dogs from a Black Lab, Irish Setter, little dogs and my first dog when older was a Siberian Husky (13 years of unconditional love and wonder), a St. Bernard (as great as this breed gets), German Shepard, Malamute, Mixes of different kinds. Each dog we have had was trained by us. Currently our three dogs are all different breeds and different ages. Each one performs their tasks on voice command. I do not even have to tell them to sit, I just point down. If I want one of them to move out of the way, I just ask nicely and they do however they obey a lot of hand signals. They understand us very well. They do tricks too but most importantly, they are all good on leashes, listen to us on voice command, fetch whatever you want them to and come when they are called. I measured my son's 55 lb Aussie/Border Collie mix and he is 3 feet long from hind quarters to his nose and stands 23 inches at his shoulder height (he is a mid sized dog, not big). When he stands up on his hind legs, he can put his paws on my husbands shoulders and does when told "up." That is so he can get hugs, but understanding that he can stretch to put his paws there on a 5'9" tall man comfortably which is around average height...MOUNTAIN DOGS can just push a guy over from sheer height when they stand! They can easily reach their paws *over *a guy's shoulders and pull him down if their weight does not knock them down in the first place. I would not want a dog that big with such aggressive tendencies. That lady who showed those dogs spends what looks like night and day with them! Folks that work do not have that kind of time. 

With all the other breeds out there that are easier to manage..why get a massive breed also highly aggressive in the first place? How many folks out there truly need this type of dog? I have seen some lovely well behaved Akitas and I would bet they do not have the same drastically aggressive nature to begin with as these in the first place? Their size maxes at 5 feet being the largest where as the Mountain Dog they can easily be 6 feet and the dog in the video was 180 lbs? Wow! No thanks here! The worst part was showing that dog snarling at babies in strollers!


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Wow...that's crazy.
A little off-topic: Does that guy in the video remind anyone else of Fredo from the Godfather?


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## romysbaskets (Aug 29, 2009)

Then there is this, a picture of two of these...are they meeting each other or? I do not know but here is a good pic to see the sheer size of them and their jaws!

Please do not feel I advocate this picture in any way, it is just for an example of size of the dog. I do not know the origin. I did read there are four types of these and this one is the largest of the four.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

lol I wonder if my Jack is part mountain dog then hahaha. He is very agreesive/protective when he thinks there is a threat. If I am not there to tell him back off, wow, an intruder better watch out. He was/is very difficult to sociolize but those he decides are in the pack he would defend to the death. I feel safe with my dog Jack, I can understand having a dog like that but there are very few people I think that would actually take the time to really train them/sociolize them as they should be. 

I had to work long and hard on Jack, and he's only 45 lbs. He ignres people, kids, etc compleatly, has no intrest in them unless they are coming up from behind us or are directly apporaching us., and I had to teach him to ignore them. He was very fear agressive as a pup. If they are just walking past, he ignores them now, no problem. It would be a nightmare I think to try to train a dog that large and that agressive in that film!


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Just wait until the yahoos get ahold of these genetics.


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## romysbaskets (Aug 29, 2009)

NickieL said:


> lol I wonder if my Jack is part mountain dog then hahaha. He is very agreesive/protective when he thinks there is a threat. If I am not there to tell him back off, wow, an intruder better watch out. He was/is very difficult to sociolize but those he decides are in the pack he would defend to the death.


My hubby and son said this type of dog is just like a bear, aren't they?...really! I sure do not need a dog this size! We will stick with the dogs we have...we were just talking about how wonderful and unique each is. Axil is the protector and dominant one, Ollie the pug thinks he is but is really a lap dog, Loudo is the mouse/rat/rabbit killer who looks like a stuffed animal.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

My akita's brothers are 130-200lbs, she's the runt, and I grew up with bernese mountain dogs, rottweilers, and great pyrenees so I don't find the size of these dogs that big of deal. I can turn a 1000lb horse I can turn a few hundred pound dog. A head halter would make it real easy. I can see them being horrible in the wrong hands but I see tons of potential there in the right hands. Even for the most aggressive ones. I didn't get a large guarding breed for no reason. I have no doubt she would cause serious injury and/or death to anyone who threatens me. I am happy about that. Even though it occasionally does lead to misunderstandings and she nearly took out our neighbor once when she had ear problems and couldn't hear my command to stop. I find the stronger the guarding instinct and aggression the easier it actually is to train them to watch over the other animals and not harm them. It may seem backwards that aggression leads to less aggressive acts towards their charges but it does hold true in my experience. The dogs most ready to leap in to action are the ones who take the watching of lower animals and their humans the most seriously.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

akane, that is true for my dog. To outsiders he is a scary beast but he is always under my voice comand and has been the easiest dog really to teach to obey me. He wants to do his best to please me and once he figures out what I want, he is more then willing to do it. Most of the time I really only have to make hand gestures unless he's not looking at me then I have to use my voice to get his attention. Usually though he is watching my every move.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

romysbaskets said:


> Then there is this, a picture of two of these...are they meeting each other or? I do not know but here is a good pic to see the sheer size of them and their jaws!
> 
> Please do not feel I advocate this picture in any way, it is just for an example of size of the dog. I do not know the origin. I did read there are four types of these and this one is the largest of the four.


Seems like I have seen this picture before. I think it was at one of the matches.


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## GammyAnnie (Jun 2, 2011)

pancho said:


> Seems like I have seen this picture before. I think it was at one of the matches.


What type of matches are you talking about, obedience trials, fighting, or what??

Annie


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

I've actually been researching Caucasian Mountain dogs. I know of one who is a good, calm, social dog (with humans and other dogs) who works as a service animal, I knew another who was a Canine Good Citizen, but he has passed on.

Much like Akitas (my current dogs), a Caucasian is not for everyone. While I'd eventually like to have one, I feel it would be irresponsible to do so living in a subdivision as I do now.

That yay-hoo who can't control his dog is just using the dog as an extension of his manhood. I came in contact with a similar Akita once - the guy got the dog for the same reason, the dog was a menace, and the owner was terrified of the dog.


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## romysbaskets (Aug 29, 2009)

I also know mid size dogs can do amazing things in protecting their owners. I do not feel that getting massive breed dogs in cities is an answer for that need however it can lead to serious problems for others. A medium dog can do more than some folks give them credit for. Our 55 lb Siberian Husky female once took a male twice her weight and whipped that dog onto his back and held him down by the throat until I said to let it up. What did that big dog do? Well she was not in heat and he was interested... His owner had asked if they could meet as this male was beautiful and very friendly. I told him as long as his dog stayed clear of her in that way, they would be fine. Well his dog did not so there you go. At least she listened to voice command and did not hurt his nice dog.  She was the coolest dog we had ever had until Alexander, the gentle giant St. Bernard. He let us handle him, he chose to be obedient as it was in his nature, at 150 of lean muscle, this tall guy was in show condition his entire life til nearly the end. 

Dog versus 45.....as effective as one which was stated in her advertisement...mmmmm Interesting advertisement for a lady who encourages on film to respect the breed...


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## pumpkinlady (Sep 3, 2003)

Looks like an awesome dog for the right person or place. If they become more common it sadly might replace the "pitty" in people's minds.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Those dogs are lawsuits waiting to happen!


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

I really cringed when they put those babies in that dog's face...wth...


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

People who think these dogs look awesome have not been attacked. A 60 lb dog can tear a man to shreds like a paper shredder. I don't mean a bite, I mean, how many people have actually experienced a full-on attack? People who never experience this have no idea what a dog is capable of. A dog of this size is a death sentence on a human. People who do not understand how fast things can go wrong with one split second handling mistake. 

I have watched lots of vids of the breed from overseas in the past and was wondering when they would bring them here. IMO, this breed has no use in our culture other than being an elite estate/business protection breed that should never be placed in the hands of a novice or in a family situation.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

I cringed when they shoved the baby in the dog's face too. I wouldn't even do that with dogs I knew and trusted. Idiots, it would take one bite from almost any dog to cause harm to that child. I don't like walking my dogs at the park anymore because people just let their kids run up to strange dogs and shove their faces in the dogs face. I have a Great Pyr who loves people, but people don't teach their children how to act around animals anymore. Personal peeve of mine.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

GammyAnnie said:


> What type of matches are you talking about, obedience trials, fighting, or what??
> 
> Annie


Fighting. The breed is used more and more for fighting nowdays.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

wolffeathers said:


> I cringed when they shoved the baby in the dog's face too. I wouldn't even do that with dogs I knew and trusted. Idiots, it would take one bite from almost any dog to cause harm to that child. I don't like walking my dogs at the park anymore because people just let their kids run up to strange dogs and shove their faces in the dogs face. I have a Great Pyr who loves people, but people don't teach their children how to act around animals anymore. Personal peeve of mine.


My Great Pyr is an absolute angel but I'm dumbstruck when people allow their small kids to run up and throw their arms around his neck. Or let their little dogs run up and yap at him. 
Years ago my daughter was in a parade and the marching band staging area was right next to the horse staging area and the drummer kept hitting that drum and making car alarms go off. The pony was getting pretty rattled so we took him to an isolated area and lunged him. A mother holding a toddler who was watching us put her eager child down and let him run over to where we were lunging the pony. Luckily, we stopped the pony in time, but I'm always horrified at how stupid some parents can be with their children.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

The point of the video was to exploit the breeds potential aggression. They videoed people who couldn't handle them for a reason.


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## TriWinkle (Oct 2, 2011)

Some people say the same about chows...


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

wolffeathers said:


> I cringed when they shoved the baby in the dog's face too. I wouldn't even do that with dogs I knew and trusted. Idiots, it would take one bite from almost any dog to cause harm to that child. I don't like walking my dogs at the park anymore because people just let their kids run up to strange dogs and shove their faces in the dogs face. I have a Great Pyr who loves people, but people don't teach their children how to act around animals anymore. Personal peeve of mine.


Yeah, I did too. I've yelled at parents before for letting their kids approach my dog. When I have to tell the kids to STAY back and they still don't listen and thier pasrents are right there, being dumb and not carring.gre:


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## defenestrate (Aug 23, 2005)

To understand the purpose of these dogs, you have to realize that these are the oldest known animals to become "domesticated" - during this time (we have foudn fossils from 14000 years ago or so), the Caucasus region was likely the center of the settled world, with Africans, Asiatics, and European tribes/clans - smarter than most primates, but still very much stone age with limited use and understanding of tools. a pointy stick or bone might take down some of the native fauna, but the native Syrian Brown Bear, while smallish for a Brown Bear was still a death sentence for a man, as was ambush by more than one other man. The Caucasus Mountain Dog/Shepherd was man's first success in forming family units with the intelligent but fierce wolf family. So for at least 14000 years, man has traveled with these dogs in that region. A man with one of these large companions could give the bears second thoughts - I seem to recall that 2 can stop one. So if you are truly living primitively in a wilderness with animals that are liable to kill you if you are not prepared, a couple of these dogs will gladly put their lives on the line against the biggest, meanest threats possible.

They are extremely intelligent, but instinctively very clannish and protective of their clan and require similar socialization to that of a Pit Bull - only a Pit isn't going to get to 200 lbs. They are more protective but with a lower prey drive, so you have different issues than you have with many domesticated hunting breeds. An Ovcharka (reckon this is the Russian standard name) will stop or possibly even kill someone who comes onto the property that it is raised/trained to (or within a certain range of its family if it perceives a threat - they were domesticated by nomads, after all), but it won't chase down and maim a small child from far away the way some of the other "aggressive" breeds will by nature if unsocialized. These dogs are too big, powerful, and protective to just have hang out in your yard - that man is nuts. The breeder gets them, but the possibility of the breed one day catching on in more populated settings is a daunting one. I'm pretty sure the baby shot was staged, nobody with a baby sits it down next to a strange dog that size.

They are beautiful, powerful, and dangerous in the wrong hands but if I had a couple hundred acres and time to raise a couple of dogs with the intent of keeping bad guys and/or bears from messing with me, I would strongly consider them. In fact, I've considered them anyway as the more instinctive primal characteristics would teach me about dogs as much as I would teach them about people, I figure.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I guess if you are out walking a dog on a leash it must be friendly and it is ok for your child to running screaming PUPPY!! and hug it. Not sure why they lack the common sense to teach their kids not to do it. I know one little girl who did it and had been bitten by a dog or two, her parents said she would never learn, sheesh! 


The woman _thinks_ she can handle them, she is doing a better job then that man. But she is still not very bright in allowing a baby right next to a dog that she knows to be aggressive from a very young age. 

I cannot see the point or benefit in these dogs. Get a dog you can handle and a gun if you live in an area with a lot of crime. I can see these being treated like Presas, raised as big guard dogs and something bad happening since these dogs are larger, more aggressive and will probably 9 times out of 10 end up in the in hand of the wrong type of owner.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

TriWinkle said:


> Some people say the same about chows...


Heck, TW, EVERONE says the same about chows except for those of us who have them. But a chow is more compact; strong, yes, but if Cricket was going to lunge at someone or passing cars in the road, I could hold him back. This guy in the video will soon be mourning the loss of his dog after it is run over by the cars he was chasing, the guy too for that matter, or trying to explain in court why he had such a critter out in public like that after he mauled someone. A single-minded Cricket pulls me badly enough as it is, if he was that big he would be well beyond my ability to responsibly handle him.

Am I the only one who noted the dog didn't pay any attention to other dogs right next to him as he lunged at the cars? Wonder what that is all about!

I do agree with the poster who said it was sentionalistic journalism, but still...this means there ARE people out there who are incapable of controllng the dog yet own them anyway.

Defenestrate, thank you! Fascinating take and observations. They seem sturdier than a lot of the larger dogs, I was reading a lifespan of between 10-12 years, pretty good for a dog that size. Perhaps because the lines are still clean?


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

pancho said:


> Seems like I have seen this picture before. I think it was at one of the matches.


Its a still frame of a youtube video where two guys face the dogs off to get them to bark and growl for pictures. 

WWW.SARPLANINAC-JOZO.COM tel.00491743552582 tel.00385989920061 - YouTube

Kennels website.

Ã-arplaninac JOZO


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

beccachow said:


> Heck, TW, EVERONE says the same about chows except for those of us who have them. But a chow is more compact; strong, yes, but if Cricket was going to lunge at someone or passing cars in the road, I could hold him back. This guy in the video will soon be mourning the loss of his dog after it is run over by the cars he was chasing, the guy too for that matter, or trying to explain in court why he had such a critter out in public like that after he mauled someone. A single-minded Cricket pulls me badly enough as it is, if he was that big he would be well beyond my ability to responsibly handle him.
> 
> Am I the only one who noted the dog didn't pay any attention to other dogs right next to him as he lunged at the cars? Wonder what that is all about!
> 
> ...


Maybe you should try one of them no-pull harnesses. If they can work for a 65 lb. hunting coonhound wanting to run after critters, I'm sure it would work for your chow.


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## Bluesgal (Jun 17, 2011)

Let their kids near the dog?? Heck, I won't let my dog near their kids!!!

Purely for the dog's safety.


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

thaiblue12 said:


> I cannot see the point or benefit in these dogs. *Get a dog you can handle*


Which varies between people. I know several people who cannot handle their labradoodles, their golden retrievers, their border collies, their Jack Russells, their chihuahuas. This genius in this video has no business owning a dog of ANY sort, let alone a 200 pound aggressive mastiff-type.

I've had issues with nay-sayers about my Akitas. "What's the point? Aren't they aggressive?" Without the training and socialization I've put into my dogs, they very well could have been.

I don't really see these dogs becoming the next gang-banger dog since they're SO big and SO hairy, the maintenance is higher. I could be wrong, I tend to give people more credit than they deserve.

The Caucasian Mountain dog is a breed I eventually may want to own. However, much like before I got my first Akita, there will be YEARS of research and talking with breeders before that ever comes to fruition.

Unfortunately, most people put more research into their next washing machine than they do their next dog, so I'm kind of abnormal in that respect.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

(I love Akitas Was thinking of going that route if the chow thing ever wears off for me)


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## rv dweller (Jan 22, 2011)

gone-a-milkin said:


> Just wait until the yahoos get ahold of these genetics.


Want to bet these replace pitbulls for fighters?!  Another designer dog ready to flood the market!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

rv dweller said:


> Want to bet these replace pitbulls for fighters?!  Another designer dog ready to flood the market!


It has already been tried. Didn't work.
They will probably be a hit with the drug houses and gandstas.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

I wonder just how much hype is being put into the aggressive side of this dog. I don't believe they'll be the next "pitbull", they're too big and probably would melt in the heat.

I've looked into the breed before and I see more territorial behaviors in them than just "pure aggression" as the video lets on. Here is a US breeder's Youtube channel. (Mute the music if it's not in your taste)
http://www.youtube.com/user/RockhillCaucasians

Her dogs are videoed playing, being led around in public by a kid, etc. There are shots of them being mildly aggressive at the fence(most breeds are) but most of the pictures of these dogs are taken in a plant nursery(kinda silly to have a pack of man-mauling dogs running around your business) and a couple of the videos are taken at the Grand Canyon(there is a short clip on one of them of the dog being territorial over the car, again like many breeds are). There is a clip of an older dog leaping on a younger, but again, it's "normal" dog behavior.

I tend to think there is a lot of hype about them as being the next big bad dog. I think in the hands of a breeder that breeds for a balanced dog, they would be just fine. It all comes down to what someone breeds them for. You select for and train/condition for an aggressive dog, that's what you'll get.

They are similar to other LGDs, big and a tendency to be territorial. There are many breeds that are not suited for apartment or subdivision life or ANY life with an ignorant irresponsible person(but that's going to happen).


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

pancho said:


> I was hopeing they wouldn't make it here. Just wishful thinking. You will be seeing more of them and reading more about them soon.


Do you think of them as more dangerous and aggressive than a fila?

I met an Amish family near Hannibal that has some mixes of Caucasians/GP (sp) that are LGDs for their sheep. They were definitely dogs that stayed leery of anyone that came to the farm, but they were supposedly mixed down a lot. Of course I don't know if the Amish were correct in their breed linage either. I do know they didn't act like most purebred GP I have seen.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

mekasmom said:


> Do you think of them as more dangerous and aggressive than a fila?
> 
> I met an Amish family near Hannibal that has some mixes of Caucasians/GP (sp) that are LGDs for their sheep. They were definitely dogs that stayed leery of anyone that came to the farm, but they were supposedly mixed down a lot. Of course I don't know if the Amish were correct in their breed linage either. I do know they didn't act like most purebred GP I have seen.


In my opinion about the same. Both are large strong aggressive dogs.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Why do people buy these breeds then try to go through months or years of intensive training and socialization to try to turn them into something it is not. If you want to take it on the street to hug babies, buy a Poodle.

If you want a dog bred for generations for extreme aggression, buy a Caucasian and keep it contained away from people.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Haven said:


> Why do people buy these breeds then try to go through months or years of intensive training and socialization to try to turn them into something it is not. If you want to take it on the street to hug babies, buy a Poodle.
> 
> If you want a dog bred for generations for extreme aggression, buy a Caucasian and keep it contained away from people.


That is one thing I have never been able to understand.
Some people will choose a breed of dogs that have a certain trait then try their best to change that trait that makes them a breed.
Looks like they could simply choose a breed know for the qualities they are wanting.


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

Akitas have the qualities I wanted - the size, their protectiveness, their aloofness toward strangers.

However, because they go out in public to the vet or hanging out in the car with me, I didn't want ticking time bombs, so I trained and socialized.

But while I wouldn't expect either an Akita or a Caucasian Ovcharka to behave like a happy-go-lucky golden retriever, I also demand that my dogs behave safely in public.


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

I have two Caucasian Shepherd dogs/Ovcharka's and they are not for everyone.

I see some posters on here think they are used as fighting dogs, that is not true.
Don't confuse them with their "cousins" the Central Asian Shepherd dogs/Ovcharka's who are sadly used for fights more and more.

Caucasian Shepherd dog is a livestock guardian breed, but in the last 70 years they've mostly been used as a property guardians or in Russia even as military/prison guard dogs.
In former Eastern Germany 7000 of them were used to guard the Berlin Wall.

They're highly intelligent, very stubborn, pretty independent but also very affectionate with their own family. However they are really territorial and usually downright aggressive towards any strangers and strange dogs.
Viciousness and fearful behavior is a fault in this breed, aggressiveness isn't. 

Outside their own farm/backyard they are aloof with strangers, often ignoring them when properly socialized. They don't get along very well with other dominant dogs, but are usually fine with smaller dogs who are not dominant.


Although some males get to be 200 pounds, that's not really desired. A working Caucasian Ovcharka weighs around 160/170 pounds for males and 120-140 pounds for a female. 
They're also usually extremely athletic and a 6 ft fence is a must.


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

romysbaskets said:


> Then there is this, a picture of two of these...are they meeting each other or? I do not know but here is a good pic to see the sheer size of them and their jaws!
> 
> Please do not feel I advocate this picture in any way, it is just for an example of size of the dog. I do not know the origin. I did read there are four types of these and this one is the largest of the four.




I would like to add a thing or two about this picture.
No it was not at any match, as said by another poster before the picture is from video made by the owner of Jozo-Sarplaninac Kennel (a kennel for different large breeds)
The owner of the kennel lives both in Croatia and Germany and he does not fight any of his dogs. 
He has said that he loves all his dogs and only makes this video's/pictures to impress people.

In my opinion his behavior only attracts the wrong crowd, but that's just me.
Anyway, in the past I've been in contact with his sister kennel in Croatia (they have some amazing looking dark colored CO's) and again, neither of the kennels are fighting their dogs.
Just thought I'll explain that before people get the wrong ideas


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Grazer
you are mistaken. in russia, they are matched against each other, various central asian molosssers & russian wolves.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Grazer said:


> I would like to add a thing or two about this picture.
> No it was not at any match, as said by another poster before the picture is from video made by the owner of Jozo-Sarplaninac Kennel (a kennel for different large breeds)
> The owner of the kennel lives both in Croatia and Germany and he does not fight any of his dogs.
> He has said that he loves all his dogs and only makes this video's/pictures to impress people.
> ...


The man in red with the cigarette hanging from his lips has made several videos. One was at a match. I did some searching and found it again.


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

Pancho you might be right, I just know Jozo (the owner of the kennel) has repeatedly said he never fights his dogs. And I've been told the same thing by his "sister kennel".
If he's lying, then I hope someone will find out so the authorities take away his breeding license. Dog fights are very much illegal in both countries where he lives.


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

As for post number 45, I said what I meant to my knowledge the CO has not been used for dog fights in the recent history (+/- 70 years). Unlike their in my eyes unfortunate "cousins" the CAO
Because of CO's natural guarding ability the breed went from being LGD's to mostly just (military) guard dogs.
In all honesty I personally would never want to own a breed that's very dog aggressive.
Protecting its own territory against stray dogs is fine, but wanting to kill every dog on sight when taken for walks, even submissive ones is something I can't tolerate.

In my opinion this is very some lines of CAO are heading to...


Pops if I understood you correctly you said you attended these dog fights tournaments?
I assume the ones in U.S...
If I understood that right then I find it very sad. But it explains why we see things so differently. I'm very much against people putting animals to fight. That's just me.
So I hope now you understand why we don't see eye to eye when it comes to these subjects.

Anyway my advise to people who are seriously interested in the breed would be: talk to breeders, if possible visit the kennels and talk to owners. 
It's a breed only for experienced dog owners that have a large property, want a breed that will instinctively guard and love the breed's independent character.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

yes, i attended matches in the USA & Mexico as a kid.
in high school I stumbled on some nimrods in a park one night trying to match junk
in 2002 while stationed in Okinawa Japan upon invitation I attended some nimrods matching Oki Inu & later on the mainland I spent a day attending some country matches, unfortunately i never got to see the japanese traditional matches nor develop the contacts to bring good Tosas into the USA.
when i get the chance I will go to Pakistan & Afghanistan. i will attend their matches & bear baits. and I will try to develop the relationships to bring back good Koochee dog & bully kutta blood for the LGD & hogdog communities


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

Well this definitely explains why we view things so differently.
I on the other hand have spent most of my life trying to help animals whenever I could by feeding hungry birds, stray dogs/cats, volunteering in the animal shelter etc..


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Different breeds were developed for different purposes. That does not keep people from useing them for a different purpose. Why they don't get a dog bred for the purpose they want to use the dog for I can't understand.

Just because a person does not like the purpose a dog was bred for does not mean they should ignore that thing. If they are interested in a breed they should learn both the good and bad. If they only look at the breed's history that they like while ignoring the rest it usually comes to a sad end.

Dog breeds were developed for a reason. Quite a bit of work went into developing every breed. Now we have a breed for just about any reason a person would want.
They should choose a dog that fulfills what they want in a dog instead of choosing one for its looks.


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2011)

Apparently you think one of their purpose was to fight other dogs.
And it seems you don't understand what the Caucasian Ovcharka (Russian word for shepherd dog) was developed for. 
They were originally LGD's: livestock guardian dogs. Guarding both sheep/goats etc and their property/family.
They are not fighting dogs like Tosa's, Pit Bulls or Bully Kutta's.
Never have been and never will be.

CO's was used as LGD for probably 3000 years if not more. Scaring wolves and other large predators off, fighting them only if necessary, because an injury back then would mean a certain death.
Overly dog aggressive aboriginal CO's were culled because they were meant to work in a pack.
And with aboriginal CAO's the over human-aggressive individuals were also culled....which would explain why the modern CAO is less aggressive towards people.

In the recent history (the early 1930's) the CO's were chosen by Soviet Union's military and only the most human aggressive ones were selected.
The job of this breed is to be either an LGD or property guardian or both. Which is also what I have my dogs for. So how am I not using them for their original purpose is beyond me.

But this is what happens when you talk to people who have never met the breed in real life, let alone raised one.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

No, just the opposite. They make very poor fighting dogs. They are curs. Not game enough.
That is what I meant by people using a dog for something they were not bred for.
Just being big does not make a dog a good fighter. Matches are by weight. Being aggressive does not make a dog a good fighting dog. 
Gameness is what makes a dog a geeod fighting dog.

Bully Kuttas are not fighting dogs. Tosas really do not make much of a fighting dog.
Large dogs do not make a fighting dog.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Time for a break on this topic i think.


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