# Are you prepared for medical emergency? How?



## Backyardcreek (Aug 24, 2014)

Got first aid kits, got few books (without a doctor, family medical guide, etc)
Then in researching I realized a simple Red Cross course isn't going to suffice if my family truly needed medical attention.
Does anyone have suggestions that will fill this void? I've contemplated taking a CNA course at a local community college but I'm unsure if this will give me enough training for dealing with broken arms, deep cuts that need suture, etc.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

I learned a whole lot from Dr. William Forgey's book "Wilderness Medicine". I read it cover to cover several times, used his lists to supplement meds and equipment I had, and re-thought how I have my medical supplies stored. Reading a book won't replace taking a CNA course or becoming an EMT, but it helped me see places I needed to improve, and made me feel good about the knowledge and supplies I already had. I keep the book in my medical closet, for quick reference if I'm not able to get to an ER.

http://www.amazon.com/Wilderness-Me...ie=UTF8&qid=1414885588&sr=8-1&keywords=forgey


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Forgot to add, he goes into great detail about how to do sutures, treat frostbite, stabilize a broken bone, safely apply a tourniquet, do emergency dental work, etc. And he spells out exactly what size sutures, scalpels, pliers, etc to get. He also has lists of medicines and dosages. Very, very useful IMO.


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## BlueRose (Mar 7, 2013)

Thank you. Another book to add to my wish list.


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## Janis R (Jun 27, 2013)

CNA class really wouldn't help. An EMT class would be great if you have the time and money but you will not learn suturing and stuff like that b/c it is out of the scope of an EMT or a nurse for that matter. 
Reading as much as you can, possibly getting some military manuals. Get some practice suture kits and practice on dead animals. You tube has some good sites


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## happycat47111 (Nov 23, 2013)

Check out The Patriot Nurse. She's got a great YouTube channel and has classes devoted to just this sort of preparation.


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## Mrs Katzenchix (Aug 19, 2005)

First aid & medical care is something I've been focusing on lately also. DH & I are planning to take the basic Red Cross courses, but I would also like a little more in-depth training on procedures like administering IV fluids. 

One book I would recommend for that kind of in-depth knowledge is  "The Survival Medicine Handbook: A Guide for When Help is Not on the Way" by Joseph Alton & Amy Alton. (BTW, the Kindle version is free with Kindle Unlimited if you happen to have that.) 

This book assumes there will not be hospital care in the foreseeable future so the objective is caring for the patient long-term, not just stabilizing them until they can get to a hospital. Therefore the book does go over procedures like suturing wounds, emergency surgery, etc. The specific topics covered are shown on the Amazon book description. The authors are an MD and an RN and they also own the website www.doomandbloom.net.


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## Backyardcreek (Aug 24, 2014)

Thank you so much for your advice. I'm one of those persons that read ferociously but have difficulty sitting still for long periods of time (I.e. Have college degree but was really trying for me to sit through a lecture :/ )
I've watched patriot nurse on youtube several times so yes I am interested in attending her course(s) but it's $$$s (yes, worth it but would put a dent in our budget.)
Has anyone attended her course(s)?


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## CJofWolfcreek (Jan 25, 2013)

CNA is geared towards in hospital care below the training of RN's and LPN's. An EMT course is probably more towards what you're looking for. Most local volunteer squads will even pay for the course if you promise to ride with them for a certain period of time to get their investment back.

Even EMT is limited and is geared towards stabilizing enough to transport to an ER.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

I took an EMT course and am contemplating going back for a refresher. Not really adequate. I think what many of us would like is more along the lines of a paramedic. Not happening for me, the time and money investestment is way beyond my means.

What has helped me is sticking my nose in every vet procedure I can stick my nose in. I have some super vets that like to explain and show in detail. It goes beyond helping with critter care, just don't tell your human patients.


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

The only job title that is equivalent to what you guys want is special forces medic.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

You need to understand human anatomy and physiology. That is the main thing. Then you can pinch off an artery, but for how long? You need to know how to tie one off. During SHTF you need to be about as good as a civil war surgeon. It ain't pretty but you do what you can. You're not going to be giving anyone IVs. You're going to keep them hydrated, clean wounds and keep dressings clean and fresh, and hope for no serious infection. Your biggest asset would be good knowledge of anatomy, and good knowledge of sanitation and sterilization techniques. It's fascinating stuff to learn.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Vicker, why do you say that about not giving anyone IVs?


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## Mrs Katzenchix (Aug 19, 2005)

vicker said:


> You need to understand human anatomy and physiology. That is the main thing. Then you can pinch off an artery, but for how long? You need to know how to tie one off. During SHTF you need to be about as good as a civil war surgeon. It ain't pretty but you do what you can. You're not going to be giving anyone IVs. You're going to keep them hydrated, clean wounds and keep dressings clean and fresh, and hope for no serious infection. Your biggest asset would be good knowledge of anatomy, and good knowledge of sanitation and sterilization techniques. It's fascinating stuff to learn.


Thank you for the advice. Are there any books or materials you would suggest? Also, I'm curious why you say to forget giving an IV. I'm not a medical professional, but just based on what I've seen, I assumed that would be useful in many different situations. In a long-term SHTF situation, I'm expecting that the medical problems I would have to deal with most often would be infections, fevers, dehydration, basically things that come from not having proper medical care and sanitary conditions, like in a third world country. 

Also, several years ago, my stepdaughter lived in Honduras in an area where doctors/hospitals aren't available (and people are too poor to afford one anyway). She was a CNA and helped to treat several of the people in the community. There was one man in particular who was dying and she went to his home several times to give him IV fluids that she thought probably prolonged his life for a time.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

To give someone IVs you would need to have IVs  you are probably not going to be carrying or storing that type of equipment. You are not going to have access to a lab that would tell you what type of antibiotic you would need to treat an infection. You would need to treat with large doses of wide spectrum antibiotics that you are not going to have. Sure, it would be nice to have access to plasma, IVs and such, but someone needing those are probably beyond your help in long term and, as you said, you'd only be prolonging their life, for a bit. You aren't asking what you would need to set up a long term care facilities or hospital. You are going to only be able to provide good first aide, support and care, and hope they can cure themselves. Any type of invasive surgery is out of the question, except radical life saving things like amputation, and the survival rate from those will be iffy. You can't go exploring someone's body cavity looking for internal bleeding, or trying to repair a collapsed lung. You can only treat it from the outside, as sterilely as possible, and hope they can heal the inside stuff. Again, think along the lines of a decent civil war surgeon. That's the best you can hope for, maybe a little better, because you probably have a little more knowledge of what causes infections.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

As for equipment
Various suture sets would be nice. If you can't get variety, I'd go with cat gut. 

Exam gloves larger than you think you need, and plenty of them. 

Hand sanitizer and bleach. 

Some clean and sanitized empty squirt bottles, like dish detergent bottles. Several smaller is better than a few large. Those hypodermic looking meat injectors are good too, But cut the needle off above the point and holes so that you just have a thin tube for flushing. 

Plain sanitary napkins in various sizes. And the same for tampons. 

Saran wrap type food wrap, for sucking chest wounds.
Ok, dont cut the end off of that meat injector just yet. You might could use it to reinflate a lung.

Doctors used to have alcohol burners in their exam rooms. One of those. 

Ethyl alcohol. Ever Clear or the strongest vodka or rum you can find (at least 150 proof). You want the kind of alcohol that is also drinkable. 

You're probably not going to be knowledgeable enough to use it but, the kind of spray engine starter fluid that is mostly ether. 

Para cord. Cotton string. Thread. Throw in a couple of packs of wire guitar strings too.

Disposable lighters. 

An exacto knife with extra blades. 

You really need some good knives of various sizes that are easy to sharpen and to clean. 

A small bone saw, or a hacksaw with an aggressive blade. 

A tape measure to measure for coffins.


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## Backyardcreek (Aug 24, 2014)

Vicker, THANK YOU!!! Every time I get into reading for emergency medicine there's always 'get patient stable then transport to ER/hospital'. Yet if the US truly became a SHTF scenario, the prepared is out of luck. 
I'm not a nurse just a mom/wife that's dealt with the average medical situations. I feel that in the near future, all of us may be faced with some type of medical emergency & we may not be able OR choose not to go to a medical facility.

Is this the book you suggest...
Special Operations Forces Medical Handbook 
by Steve Yevich, at al.
2001
ISBN/ASIN: 1893441547
Number of pages: 723
Description:
A comprehensive reference designed for Special Operations Forces (SOF) medics. Developed as a primary medical information resource and field guide for the Special Operations Command (SOCOM) medics, the Special Operations Forces Medical Handbook defines the standard of health care delivery under adverse and general field conditions.

Also you have a very good list but I suspect you have more in your first aid kit. Are you willing to elaborate? Have you experienced or been trained in 'field medical emergencies'?
Is there any courses, either college, community, online that would benefit me?

Thanks, Tab, that is an excellent idea re: vet (lol...1st thought was Walking Dead :/ )
Makes a lot of sense.


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## Mrs Katzenchix (Aug 19, 2005)

Vicker, on IV fluids, I was thinking more of just IV normal saline solution for emergency rehydration. I've gotten IV saline at the doctor's office for dehydration from fever multiple times and I've seen IV NS given alot to patients in hospital. In a long-term SHTF situation, I agree with you that things like IV antibiotics and plasma would be pretty much impossible to get. Also I'm guessing that to safely administer IV meds would take more medical knowledge than would be reasonable for lay person. Just the IV admin sets and saline bags may be hard to get without a medical license in the US, but like alot of things, might there be ways to work around...?


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

People can and do have iv kits in their stores. It may not replace blood lost but it will help with fluid replacement and bp support.


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## used2bcool13 (Sep 24, 2007)

Mrs K, I would think the quickest way to learn how to start an iv and give fluids would be take a phlebotomy course, they only draw blood but a vein is a vein is a vein. If you have a friend in the medical field they could help on the down low.

It is something that does require a little practice but there are also fake arms with veins for iv practice, if you know someone who teaches phlebotomy.

Good luck, dehydration is a killer. I don't know how to source iv fluids though, maybe someone else could chime in on that.


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## Mrs Katzenchix (Aug 19, 2005)

willbuck1 said:


> People can and do have iv kits in their stores. It may not replace blood lost but it will help with fluid replacement and bp support.


Good to know. I wonder what type of training a lay person could get to learn to do this? I know there would be risks even with a saline IV so training would be the thing.


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## puddlejumper007 (Jan 12, 2008)

ViCker,,,,that list sounded more like a serial killers bag.....lol..


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## Backyardcreek (Aug 24, 2014)

Now I'm thinking of Dexter :/

I found this website re: special forces medical book online via survivalist board,
Pdf ... http://www.nh-tems.com/documents/Manuals/SOF_Medical_Handbook.pdf

Also the gov't site to order from: http://bookstore.gpo.gov/products/sku/008-070-00810-6

Hope this helps. Really hope Vick returns.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

You need a lot of knowledge before giving someone an IV. You can not just plug one in and filler up.  you could easily cause an acid/base imbalance, imbalance of sodium, high blood pressure, stroke, severe breathing problems, hypothermia and other deadly things. Finding a vein and sticking a needle in it is the easy part. You need to know what to give someone for what, when, and how much for how long. 
I have taken a phlebotomy course and performed the required clinicals, sticks and venipunctures. I'm still really over my head and talking about something I have very little knowledge of but, I have enough knowledge to know I don't have enough.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I think it was Elkhound who had a thread here recently about enemas for rehydration of people and animals. That would be a better idea, I think. You'd still have to be careful of what you administered, and the temp, but you'd be less likely to cause things to go south quick. I think you'd better know very well what you are doing before injecting quantities of something into someone's circulatory system.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Speaking of which.....I once had a doctor recommend a lukewarm enema to bring down a really high temperature.

My medical preparedness follows more along the lines of common things that can go wrong. I mostly use herbal remedies. There are 3 things that I am NEVER without. If I take a trip these things go along with me. 

Activated charcoal. This will cure food poisoning and other digestive tract upsets due to toxins fairly quickly. It can also be used on spider bites to help neutralize toxins.

Marshmallow root. Do yourself a favor and get the already made up capsules. Trying to powder marshmallow root must require pixie dust or something because I can't seem to do it. This will alleviate the pain of a UTI faster than anything else. It will also cure it very quickly.

Colloidial silver. I'd need to write a novel to describe everything this stuff does. I've treated and cured a wart that was so persistent that a medical Dr actually suggested surgery for it that would have removed a good chunk of my thumb. Gargle with it at the first sign of a cold. I hardly ever get sick any more. I recently was told that it works on yeast infections. This stuff is just all around amazing.

I keep and use lots of other herbs/natural remedies, but these are my must haves.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

vicker said:


> To give someone IVs you would need to have IVs  you are probably not going to be carrying or storing that type of equipment. You are not going to have access to a lab that would tell you what type of antibiotic you would need to treat an infection. You would need to treat with large doses of wide spectrum antibiotics that you are not going to have.


I was thinking IVs just for hydration. I do have those for my horses...and I might have illegally used a few on myself over the years. I know there are potential issues with that, but if it comes down to no other options, it might be worth having them and knowing how to start an IV. It's not something anybody untrained _should_ do, but...sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.... IV antibiotics, that's another story. I don't think I would even consider that except possibly as an absolute last resort.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Your circulatory system is a carefully balanced system. Having too much volume can be just as bad as not enough. The average person has 1.2-1.5 gallons of blood. Indiscriminately adding a quart to that volume would, in my estimation, be a not smart thing to do. And, that's just the issue of volume. Hypervolemia is a deadly condition.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

I should clarify...I only used IVs on myself under a physicians's advice...which probably violated his license, but that's beside the point...nobody should go and do it on their own unless they're willing to take that risk. But it might be good to know how in case you're in a situation where a trained person can't physically get to you but you can still talk to them on the phone or something. The way I see it, if you're dying anyway, then trying something that could kill you faster or could help you pull through is probably a decent bet. The enema suggestion is probably MUCH safer, though.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Your body is a wonder inspiring thing, and every moment of your life is all of these system working and communicating together to keep those systems in a very narrow area that allows you to stay alive. With the enema, the water and electrolytes would have to absorb through the walls of your colon and large intestines, and the regulators would be much less likely to let your blood absorb too much. With the IV, you are the only regulator.


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## happycat47111 (Nov 23, 2013)

TxMex said:


> Speaking of which.....I once had a doctor recommend a lukewarm enema to bring down a really high temperature.
> 
> My medical preparedness follows more along the lines of common things that can go wrong. I mostly use herbal remedies. There are 3 things that I am NEVER without. If I take a trip these things go along with me.
> 
> ...


Ordering some marshmallow root now. Thank you! Do you have any pointers on where to go to get a good grasp on basic herbal medicine? There are tons of places out there, it seems, but I don't know what's reputable and what isn't.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

happycat47111 said:


> Ordering some marshmallow root now. Thank you! Do you have any pointers on where to go to get a good grasp on basic herbal medicine? There are tons of places out there, it seems, but I don't know what's reputable and what isn't.


Make sure you get marshmallow root and not marshmallow leaf. I didn't look closely enough at a label one time and ended up with the later.

I wish I did have some good links, but I don't. Most everything I have learned has been through having an amazing Naturopath. The other things that I have learned were from an Immunologist/Scientist whose Mother was a Naturopath. His field of study is the affects of oxygen in healing the body. Some things have been picked up from other folks like me that are interested in this sort of thing.


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## happycat47111 (Nov 23, 2013)

TxMex said:


> Make sure you get marshmallow root and not marshmallow leaf. I didn't look closely enough at a label one time and ended up with the later.
> 
> I wish I did have some good links, but I don't. Most everything I have learned has been through having an amazing Naturopath. The other things that I have learned were from an Immunologist/Scientist whose Mother was a Naturopath. His field of study is the affects of oxygen in healing the body. Some things have been picked up from other folks like me that are interested in this sort of thing.


You are so lucky. We had a good naturopath in the Louisville, KY, area, but not here. At least, if there are natural doctors here, I've not found them. (Here is eastern Ky.)


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

No. I filled out the card that came with my wallet.

For others, I would and have provided CPR, AR, Cover, Elevate Feet, Immobilize and Comfort. Yes, I can be deadly serious when I need to.

People who have received my blood, plasma or platelets have reported craving salsa and margaritas. The only time I got an A+ on anything.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

I have ordered iv fluids, lactated ringers and saline, as well as the starter kits. I have used them on the critters numerous times. Starting an iv used to be a short course for an emt. It can be a lifesaver in cases of dehydration. The place I ordered from was www.dealmed.com
I ordered some time back, as I write this, am thinking I better see if I can get some more.

Burns worry me in a situation with no hospital. One of my thoughts is to learn what native plants can be used to treat burns. I am making a list of items to search out to read and you tube during the slower times in winter.
I have learned much just researching that way. Also found that many times what I learn finds an application. Darn critters have a way of getting into trouble!

If one does a search on here, it might even be a Sticky, there are links to download many of the medical manuals. 

Don't discount boiling water and clean cotton sheets, towels or something similar. Peroxide, dry bleach, iodine, homemade oral rehydration solution, tylenol, ibuprofin, etc. Think basic and go from there. Antibiotics can be purchased and stored, lots of threads about that. Again, native plant species may help. 

What helped me to start was making a list of what illnesses, injuries we had dealt with in the last few years, human and animal. What else, in addition was likely i.e. milk, and what would be needed to hopefully deal with those things. It gave me an organized starting place. After covering the basics went on to some possibilties a bit more serious and tried to cover those. 
This is an area that is easy to feel overwhelmed and then ignore but breaking it into steps helped.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

vicker said:


> Your circulatory system is a carefully balanced system. Having too much volume can be just as bad as not enough. The average person has 1.2-1.5 gallons of blood. Indiscriminately adding a quart to that volume would, in my estimation, be a not smart thing to do. And, that's just the issue of volume. Hypervolemia is a deadly condition.


Interesting question I have never thought about before. You can rehydrate critters by using an IV set up but going subQ instead. I wonder if the same trick would work with humans. I'd think it would reduce the chance of hypervoemia because the body would have to absorb it not have it pumped directly into the blood stream.

But other than someone with trauma to mouth, throat or esophagus I can't seen why you'd need to use an IV for hydration anyway.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

> ut other than someone with trauma to mouth, throat or esophagus I can't seen why you'd need to use an IV for hydration anyway.


Persistent nausea/emesis and unconsciousness are two that come to mind.


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

Drastic blood loss and blood pressure support.


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

And if you try to put liquids down an unconscious persons throat you can kill them.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

jtbrandt said:


> Persistent nausea/emesis and unconsciousness are two that come to mind.


Its surprising how much fluids can be absorbed by keeping sipping very small amounts at a time. 

As for unconsciousness if someone is out long enough to need fluids you probably have a much bigger problem.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

willbuck1 said:


> And if you try to put liquids down an unconscious persons throat you can kill them.


If they are out that long you need to learn to put in a nasogastric tube because you are going to need to get more than fluids into them.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

watcher said:


> Its surprising how much fluids can be absorbed by keeping sipping very small amounts at a time.


You've never experience the persistent nausea I have seen. The smallest sip can cause you to vomit more fluids than you're taking in. A couple days of that and you're in a world of trouble.



> As for unconsciousness if someone is out long enough to need fluids you probably have a much bigger problem.


Of course, but it's better to have one big problem than a big problem and a medium problem compounding the big problem.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

watcher said:


> If they are out that long you need to learn to put in a nasogastric tube because you are going to need to get more than fluids into them.


Not necessarily. If it stretches into weeks, then yes.


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## Lilith (Dec 29, 2012)

Perhaps not par for the course, but I added military personnel to my team, including my husband. I have two medics in the family, and everyone else on the team who is military or former military took the combat lifesaver courses prior to getting out. They keep up their knowledge with annual training as first responders. Where they have already learned about IV's, sutures ect, they ask their instructors questions about these things to "stay sharp". I have worked on herbal knowledge and maintenance type medical prep.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

tab said:


> Burns worry me in a situation with no hospital. One of my thoughts is to learn what native plants can be used to treat burns.


Honey. http://www.benefits-of-honey.com/burn-treatment.html


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

watcher said:


> Interesting question I have never thought about before. You can rehydrate critters by using an IV set up but going subQ instead. I wonder if the same trick would work with humans. I'd think it would reduce the chance of hypervoemia because the body would have to absorb it not have it pumped directly into the blood stream.
> 
> But other than someone with trauma to mouth, throat or esophagus I can't seen why you'd need to use an IV for hydration anyway.



I have very little knowledge in this area, and it does interest me. I'll ask some questions at work and see what I can find out. 

I'm pretty sure that a patient with hypovolemia would need plasma or blood, and not a sodium or glucose drip. And, again, you would need to have a pretty good idea of how much either way. But, I'm just making a half educated guess. IV just means intravenous. There are all kinds of IVs. Starting an IV is not that difficult. A half decent phlebotomist can do it by touch alone. It's what to give when, for what, why, how much and for how long that concerns me. Nurses do IVs all the time, but they do them according what a doctor says.


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## manygoatsnmore (Feb 12, 2005)

Yeah, but Vicker, a lot of times the MDs will go with the nurse's suggestion, and hospital RNs have the option of using their nursing judgement to slow, TKO, or stop an IV fluid if the patient is showing signs of fluid overload or the lab tests are back and something is indicating the current IV is contraindicated. An example would be that your patient has an IV with potassium (K+) added, and the labs come back with an elevated K+ level. You shut off that IV and THEN call the MD for new orders, especially when you are on the night shift and it sometimes takes a little time to get a call back from the on-call doc.

I do have IV starting supplies and tubing in my med supplies, but I need to add bags of normal saline. They do outdate, and as you are putting them straight into the bloodstream, I wouldn't want to use anything outdated. I'll take certain 10 year old meds, but I don't mess around with IV fluids.


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

http://survivalblog.com/the_constipated_hordes_at_teotwawki_a_pharmacologic_strategy_by_anon_md/

This list of medical supplies on survivalblog looks like a very thorough one.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I still think you're going to need a Lab. Better add that as well.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Not trying to start trouble , but wouldn't you be better off with a couple of wide spectrum antibiotics that are effective against graham- and graham+ bacteria and aerobic and non-aerobic bacteria? You are going to be shooting in the dark enough, much less trying to guess the specific antibiotic to use based solely on the symptoms. Seriously, how are you going to know someone has a UTI unless you do a culture?


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Doctors routinely diagnose UTIs and tons of other infections without cultures. They're doctors so they're pretty good at guessing, but they're wrong fairly often too. When that happens and the problem gets worse, then they dig deeper. There's a lot of trial and error in medicine.


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

You wouldn't want to dose with antibiotics for just any old reason. Most illnesses are viruses so dosing with antibiotics at best would do nothing, at worst could cause a reaction or a side effect that could be worse than what you are taking the antibiotic for. 

You can buy all kinds of testing kits for strep, urinary tract infections and others on Amazon. You can get an otoscope and look into ears to check for ear infections. You can learn about medical issues now while things are still "normal". There are also lots of classes people can take. Someone mentioned Patriotnurse. She offers classes in all kinds of different cities. Get some books. Take some classes.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

jtbrandt said:


> Doctors routinely diagnose UTIs and tons of other infections without cultures. They're doctors so they're pretty good at guessing, but they're wrong fairly often too. When that happens and the problem gets worse, then they dig deeper. There's a lot of trial and error in medicine.


My point exactly. They shoot in the dark a few times, all the while breeding a more resistant bug, and then pull out one or two of the big boys, and hope it's not too late. In our case, why stock all of those very specific antibiotics? Why not just stock more of the few, like say, Flagyl and Ciprofloxacin?


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

vicker said:


> My point exactly. They shoot in the dark a few times, all the while breeding a more resistant bug, and then pull out one or two of the big boys, and hope it's not too late. In our case, why stock all of those very specific antibiotics? Why not just stock more of the few, like say, Flagyl and Ciprofloxacin?


Personally, I agree...but I'm not big on antibiotics anyway. Cipro is one of the few I stock. But I can see how people who "like" antibiotics would want a wide range of choices, even if they don't necessarily have the education to choose which one to use. Won't hurt to have them, unless you pass up something else that would be better to have.

There's always the Physician's Desk Reference and the Merck Manual to try to figure stuff out. They can be daunting sometimes for non-medical people, but better than nothing.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

> You wouldn't want to dose with antibiotics for just any old reason. Most illnesses are viruses so dosing with antibiotics at best would do nothing, at worst could cause a reaction or a side effect that could be worse than what you are taking the antibiotic for.


That's another thing doctors do a lot, though I think they're doing it less these days than just a few years ago.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

They love to use those prescription pads.  Of course, mommies like to have something to dose little Joey with too. I think they feed off of each other.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

Don't underestimate the person with the problem. I can tell when fluids are making me feel better, am pretty good at differentiating between a uti and other issues, know when I have strep, etc. My old doc got to where he respected me enough to listen. IMHO, many of us here have a certain sense, either animal or human, and listen to our bodies and those near and dear to us. My mother used to be able to tell when I was getting sick before I did, about 90% of the time. May not be totally scientific but it is real.

As to antibiotics, a good reference book is helpful. I have downloaded researched info. Since it seems that it is always late at night when acute illnesses strike critters, I can make a call to the vet having an idea of what she will recommend. That way, if I don't have the first choice, may have the second choice. Has saved a few late night trips. That could apply to humans. 

It was only a few generations back that people handled many illnesses and injuries at home. Maybe the neighbor lady had extra knowledge or could help as a midwife. We are in a position to have supplies, training and reference materials that go way beyond what was available then. Is it going to be the equivalent of a hospital, of course not. It can be adequate for many ailments and injuries. That is part of prepping imo.


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## Backyardcreek (Aug 24, 2014)

Thank you everyone. This has been insightful. I've been reading the special forces medic training manual ... Then read survivalist board re: constipation, then read enemas (fluid for the body), and more. Obviously there's a lot that everyone needs to be trained, practice, books, & knowledge to even just to get by.

Vicker, I especially appreciate your input. You've knowledge that is not mainstream & is much appreciated by this novice. You've imparted info that I had not considered & now at least I'm proactive and reading about various aspects. 

Please keep this thread going. I'm learning & all viewpoints assist me in being informed & better prepared.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Growing a culture and doing sensitivity testing isn't hard. I've got some Petri dishes with my livestock supplies so I can start growing before the vet comes.
I think given the choice in trying to save someone or simply watching them die would make difference in what you would be willing to do.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I had forgotten that, Molly. I wonder how difficult it is to get the little dots for testing different antibiotics. Shouldn't be too difficult. They can't be that expensive.


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## snettrecker (Jan 27, 2006)

I'm going to add a little here. Make sure when you are starting your IV's that you are using as clean a procedure as you can. Also, get to feeling people's veins. While I promise that right now your veins are pretty easy to find, let someone get dehydrated and you are going to need to have a pretty good understanding of where the veins are to find them. Sometimes you have to explore a little. 

For fluid volumes. A good place to start for the "untrained" start with a 20ml/kg infusion and then re-evaluate. so for instance a 150 lb person would get a 1300ml bolus. I would start out with 1 liter then re-evaluate the pt. If the pt has a history of Congestive Heart Failure, Kidney (renal) disease, COPD (Chronic asthma, Bronchitis, Emphysema) or any other major illness/diseases, then I will start much lower (250 ml bolus) and re-evaluate after that.

You also need to get a stethascope and a BP cuff and learn now to take Blood Pressures. also start listening to lung sounds to find out what is normal. If you are giving someone an infusion and you are listening to lung sounds regularly (you should be) and you start to hear stuff like blowing bubbles in milk through a straw, then you need to stop the infusion immediately. 

If someone is going to getting large amounts of fluids, then you might start out with a 500ml bolus, then cutting back to 100-150ml/hr. You'll need to learn how to calculate this.....

PLEASE don't try to give oral fluids to an unresponsive/unconscious person. If they are unable to control their airway, then they have a very good likelihood of aspirating (it going down the wrong tube) and then you might have just given them aspiration pneumonia to contend with also. 

As for the Subq infusion of fluids. It is more common with small children due to the small amount of fluids needed to rehydrate them. If you were wanting to rehydrate an adult you would have to give extreme amounts of fluid this way. Most of the time you only inject around 2ml per injection. Could you imagine trying to give someone 1000ml of fluid this way? 

Sorry for the long post, Vicker has already covered several good points. Just thought I'd add a few thoughts.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Excellent info! I really don't have any experience, but understand what you are saying.  I know we have some medical persons here that can share real knowledge. 
My mother used to work for a doctor who had been a special forces medic in Vietnam. He finally left general practice (he was fantastic as a GP) and became the best ER doc this area has ever seen. Alas, he died a couple of years ago. I would dearly love to pick his brain.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

When you take phlebotomy, they tell you to feel for the veins, to use your fingertips. You trust your eyes and just don't feel them. Keep trying and all of a sudden you can! You can feel those veins. You could stick one in the dark.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I got mine from the vet, but you can get them at most medical supply places.


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## snettrecker (Jan 27, 2006)

We give a lot of IVs (just in case) most don't really need them. Your basic life saving skills are going to go a lot further. Take some classes. I know when I teach my first responder classes I go a lot more in depth on what to do in a makeshift situation. I have several like minded people around here that have taken the class. I usually do a few segments just for them. Stuff on sutures and IVs, they know that they aren't certified to do them, but it is more of an awareness course for the shtf. I've taught a few people to actually give IVs, mostly just the people who I might need to give ME one.


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## snettrecker (Jan 27, 2006)

I have had to start several IVs in very little light. Just a flashlight held by my partner. Knowing what you are feeling helps a lot. Getting the iv isn't usually the problem in those cases. Getting everything hooked up however....

Also. Sticking a needle into someone's vein is easy, getting an IV to thread is sometimes a different story altogether. There are a lot of times when we get the needle in, but the catheter won't thread at all. I recommend starting IVs in the IV tubing to kinda get a feel for threading it into a vein. Even then it's not like the real thing, but it's better than nothing.


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## Mutti (Sep 7, 2002)

I'm a nurse with 35 yrs. experience from newborns to the elderly. Son is a nurse. DIL is an Army medic with two tours in Iraq. Think we have it covered! She carries a medical pack in her trunk almost heavier than her She seems petite and dainty until she puts on her Army sergeant persona and then look out!

The one thing I've been studying is herbs and am gradually adding to my garden plus learning how to do simple herbal medicine. DIL is a soapmaker and has begun making salves and lip balms. There have been many winter days when I'd give a silver dime for a lip balm!


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## snettrecker (Jan 27, 2006)

That's the thing that I've been trying to work on. I've found a few courses that I'm considering taking on herbal medicine. Herbs from scratch, not the whole pill (herb) thing. I've not found one that I'm sold on however. Knowing how the body works and then hearing some of the claims that they make, make you cringe sometimes.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

vicker said:


> Seriously, how are you going to know someone has a UTI unless you do a culture?


You can tell if someone has an infection by their pee - if it smells yeasty, it's cloudy and has a sticky feel to it between your fingers. Fortunately a lot of UTIs can be flushed out by drinking copious amounts of water.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

A great thing for most UTIs is D-Mannose, which is one of the sugars in cranberry juice (and pineapple juice) and the reason cranberry juice is often recommended for UTIs. The amount in juice is pretty small, though. Better is to take a D-Mannose supplement. It helps to flush out the infection by sticking to the bacteria so they can't stick to the urinary tract wall. So it's better than an antibiotic in that it doesn't kill the natural good bacteria in your body. It just flushes out what doesn't belong.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Molly Mckee said:


> Growing a culture and doing sensitivity testing isn't hard. I've got some Petri dishes with my livestock supplies so I can start growing before the vet comes.
> I think given the choice in trying to save someone or simply watching them die would make difference in what you would be willing to do.


I need to learn how to do this...sounds fun, and might come in handy! Thanks for mentioning it!


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

snettrecker said:


> As for the Subq infusion of fluids. It is more common with small children due to the small amount of fluids needed to rehydrate them. If you were wanting to rehydrate an adult you would have to give extreme amounts of fluid this way. Most of the time you only inject around 2ml per injection. Could you imagine trying to give someone 1000ml of fluid this way?


When you do this with a critter you hang a bag just like you would with an IV setup. I know critters usually have looser fitting skin than people.


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## Backyardcreek (Aug 24, 2014)

You folks have a lot of knowledge & I thank you. I'm not from a medical background & to be honest some things scare me. But it's one of those 'pull your boot straps on' that I've had to learn. Ok I need to have a stethoscope, DH has high blood pressure so we have a bp machine. Stethoscope I've no knowledge in that. 
Thanks for opening my eyes to items I really need to concentrate on.


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## snettrecker (Jan 27, 2006)

watcher said:


> When you do this with a critter you hang a bag just like you would with an IV setup. I know critters usually have looser fitting skin than people.



Right, but you have to really watch it with a human. You can very easily cause tissue necrosis (death) if you infuse to fast. If you are doing it on an extremity, (don't) you can cause compartment syndrome. = bad juju....


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

This is a very enlightening thread with much information. I have not found anything in here that speaks to the "fish" antibiotics used for humans. Is this not a viable option? Seems it might be wise to include some of this in the medical chest...yes? no?


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## happycat47111 (Nov 23, 2013)

motdaugrnds said:


> This is a very enlightening thread with much information. I have not found anything in here that speaks to the "fish" antibiotics used for humans. Is this not a viable option? Seems it might be wise to include some of this in the medical chest...yes? no?


Yes. They're the exact same pills. After conferring with a doctor last week, I finally gave in and ordered a good range of them. I'm now stocked for at least a while. *relieved*


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## manygoatsnmore (Feb 12, 2005)

Absolutely, order and keep on hand fish antibiotics. You can get the fish equivalent of pretty much all of the human oral ABX, and other than tetracycline, which may degrade into an unsafe product, they keep for much longer than the expiration date.

If you have an agar plate you are culturing, you can use a tiny amount of the actual antibiotic rather than the test dots. If you see good growth of the bacteria across the plate, but not around the ABX, that med is effective against the bacterial strain you're culturing.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Well, I made a number of calls to the local pet stores that sell for fish; and was told they could not get certain antibiotics because humans were using them on other humans.

Please PM me as to where I can order these fish antibiotics *and be sure they actually contain what they say they do.....*


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

motdaugrnds said:


> Well, I made a number of calls to the local pet stores that sell for fish; and was told they could not get certain antibiotics because humans were using them on other humans.
> 
> Please PM me as to where I can order these fish antibiotics *and be sure they actually contain what they say they do.....*


http://www.google.com/search?q=fish...4.mobile-heirloom-serp..2.15.1472.KYTB1sWBPZE. You'll have to do your own research on ingredients but I'd go with one of the vet supply catalogs.


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## snettrecker (Jan 27, 2006)

You can also get most any non schedule meds from India. You can get any of the antibiotics from there, and most of the time you can get all your other meds from there a bunch cheaper.


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## snettrecker (Jan 27, 2006)

Also, learn what antibiotics are good for what illnesses/bacteria. Find out the dosage and if you are convinced that you have the right illness make sure you take the entire regiment. Right now, a lot of people aren't taking the full regiment, they stop when they start feeling better and this creates a breeding ground for the mutations that we're seeing. I know I'm probably preaching to the choir, but thought I'd throw that out there


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## snettrecker (Jan 27, 2006)

"All day chemist . Com" is one such place


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

http://www.fishmoxfishflex.com

I have antibiotics stored, and made myself a cheat sheet of antibiotic type, what diseases they treat, and dosages - it's laminated and near to hand. I also have a copy of the Nursing Drug Reference, and the Physician's Desk Reference. And the book I mentioned Dr. Forgey's Wilderness Medicine and lots of printouts I've made of medical articles.

We go to the doctor when there's something wrong that I can't treat at home, but my supplies have saved time and money so many times! I have strep tests and mono tests, stethoscope, thermometer, BP cuff, ear scope, strips that test urine for pH, nitrates, etc - all the things a regular doctor/nurse does before handing you an Rx for an antibiotic (even if you don't need one).


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## Cabanaboy1313 (Oct 15, 2014)

I am a fulltime firefighter/EMT. I also work part-time for a privately owned rescue company. We have a variance to give IV's it's not that hard to do. It just takes practice. With all the nut jobs out there shooting up schools the fire and police department recently took a refresher class on gun shots.


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

Be ultra careful with antibiotics. I know it's important to store, but only bacteria is killed by antibiotics. Dosing with antibiotics without knowing the type of bacteria the infection is being caused by can do more harm than good. This practice has lead to antibiotic resistant infections. In a SHTF situation every antibiotic tablet/capsule will be vital. Knowing the symptoms of infections, having testing kits, otoscopes, and other medical equipment to help diagnose is ultra important. Running out of antibiotics because you took them for a simple cold and then not having them when they are really needed will be a cause of serious issues months after a SHTF situation.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I stumbled upon a very thorough list of essential medicines here...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization's_List_of_Essential_Medicines


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

... Would appreciate being corrected if what I'm about to do would not be wise ...

At the Thomas Labs I found the following:

1. Fish Flex Fore (Cephalexin 500mg) 100 count
2. Fish Mox Forte (Amoxicillin 500mg) 100 count
3. Fish Pen Forte (Penicillin 500mg) 60 count

I *think* these are "pure" without extra additives and are "broad-spectrum" types of antibiotics that can be used on humans.

Seems these would be good to have in a medical kit; so I'm about to order them.

I, also, have a Colloidal Silver *generator* and have been practicing creating this liquid, both for internal as well as external use.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

We've used fish mox for years with no issues.


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## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

We are as ready as we will be. DH was an EMT in the military, and has so set opinions on some things. No spare medications in this house. Mostly we will go back to doing things like great grandma and before. I have a medicinal herb garden we are learning to use, we have a few "stitch 'em up" kits, I keep lots of soap on hand, etc. Beyond that, if medical help isn't available we will have to let nature takes it's course.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

The more I learn about the 3 "fish antibiotics" I'm contemplating on getting, the more I see they are actually to be used for the same thing. Am I wrong? Would it be foolish to get some of all three?


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

I have several large bottles of fish antibiotics and have used them myself in the past. They are expensive but not as much as human ones without a prescription. I also have splints, bandages, IV sets, suture sets, fluids, a variety of OTC meds. Just purchase or gather the things you know how to use. Probably do not need sutures if you have never done that before. I also have skin staplers that work great for large wounds and surgical wounds. I am not able to take out an appendix (supposedly) though I am able to start and maintain IV's, dispense meds on schedule, and suture wounds. I also have a couple of good medical and first aid books for reference.


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## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

I forgot that, we have some very good medical books. From EMT training manuels to honestly useful SHTF medical books (got to love Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy!) and a few others in between. Haven't found a "go to" herbal book yet, but I have 3-4 nice ones I cross reference.


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

motdaugrnds said:


> The more I learn about the 3 "fish antibiotics" I'm contemplating on getting, the more I see they are actually to be used for the same thing. Am I wrong? Would it be foolish to get some of all three?


There are antibiotics that can be used for similar infections and others that are not interchangeable. The best approach is to purchase antibiotics that can be used for a variety of infections and get a Physician's Desk Reference, Handbook fo Medicing in Developing Countries, Where there is No Doctor, When there is No Doctor, Sanford Guide to Antimicrobial Therapy, The Merck Manual and others. Good websites are: http://www.thesurvivaldoctor.com/ and http://www.doomandbloom.net/ Also, watch lots of videos on youtube. Good ones are those by Patriot Nurse.


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## stickinthemud (Sep 10, 2003)

Astrid's advice is good for SHTF, but be aware using antibiotics has a cost. "Antibiotic resistance" (germs which are not killed by antibiotics) is a growing problem. Each time a population of germs is treated with a drug, the germs that 'resist' survive and breed. Then the next generation includes more of the 'resistant' germs, and so on until few germs are killed, and the drug is no longer effective. That is what we face with MRSA--a population of germs that does not respond to Methicillin, a drug that is usually tried last. And a reason hospital-acquired infections are so deadly--those germs have been selected by many different drugs and come out winners against us.
This was a topic of much discussion in the 'Epidemics' course & included many calls for restricting access to antibiotics--no more fish-mox, no more overseas orders. My S&EP reaction is to avoid any near-term antibiotic use that is not absolutely essential, lest we contribute to resistance in our own local germ population.
Comments from those who know more about medicine are appreciated!


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

stickinthemud said:


> Astrid's advice is good for SHTF, but be aware using antibiotics has a cost. "Antibiotic resistance" (germs which are not killed by antibiotics) is a growing problem. Each time a population of germs is treated with a drug, the germs that 'resist' survive and breed. Then the next generation includes more of the 'resistant' germs, and so on until few germs are killed, and the drug is no longer effective. That is what we face with MRSA--a population of germs that does not respond to Methicillin, a drug that is usually tried last. And a reason hospital-acquired infections are so deadly--those germs have been selected by many different drugs and come out winners against us.
> This was a topic of much discussion in the 'Epidemics' course & included many calls for restricting access to antibiotics--no more fish-mox, no more overseas orders. My S&EP reaction is to avoid any near-term antibiotic use that is not absolutely essential, lest we contribute to resistance in our own local germ population.
> Comments from those who know more about medicine are appreciated!



Let me just preface this by saying that I am a nurse. What you are saying is true-ish. There is way too much dosing with antibiotics which as you say is leading to antibiotic resistance and infections such as MRSA and Clostridium difficile (or C-diff) and others. This is not only because of the routine dosing with antibiotics for viral infections but also what is given to animals used for meat. However, penicillin is still used for strep. The point is, before taking antibiotics, learn how to diagnose the illness. http://www.amazon.com/Areta-Strep-T...TF8&qid=1417120603&sr=8-1&keywords=strep+test are tests used for strep. http://www.amazon.com/Phinex-Parame...F8&qid=1417120647&sr=8-1&keywords=urine+tests are used for urinary tract infections, kidney function and diabetes. What I'm saying is that test kits can be purchased to test for a host of issues instead of just randomly taking an antibiotic which may or may not be effective. Learn how to recognize symptoms and learn which antibiotics are effective against specific diseases. Also remember that a particular infection may not respond to some antibiotics and will need one that is more potent or acts differently.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

I think the majority of antibiotic resistance comes from two (or three or four) factors:

1- Prophylactic use of antibiotics in livestock
2- Human patients not using the full course prescribed to them
2b- Human patients requesting antibiotics when they are not indicated and doctors giving in
2c- Antibacterial soaps (this one is questionable...probably more a problem of weakening the immune system than strengthening the bacteria)


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## manygoatsnmore (Feb 12, 2005)

Astrid said:


> Let me just preface this by saying that I am a nurse. What you are saying is true-ish. There is way too much dosing with antibiotics which as you say is leading to antibiotic resistance and infections such as MRSA and Clostridium difficile (or C-diff) and others. This is not only because of the routine dosing with antibiotics for viral infections but also what is given to animals used for meat. However, penicillin is still used for strep. The point is, before taking antibiotics, learn how to diagnose the illness. http://www.amazon.com/Areta-Strep-T...TF8&qid=1417120603&sr=8-1&keywords=strep+test are tests used for strep. http://www.amazon.com/Phinex-Parame...F8&qid=1417120647&sr=8-1&keywords=urine+tests are used for urinary tract infections, kidney function and diabetes. What I'm saying is that test kits can be purchased to test for a host of issues instead of just randomly taking an antibiotic which may or may not be effective. Learn how to recognize symptoms and learn which antibiotics are effective against specific diseases. Also remember that a particular infection may not respond to some antibiotics and will need one that is more potent or acts differently.


As another RN here, nicely put, Astrid.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Astrid said:


> The point is, before taking antibiotics, learn how to diagnose the illness. http://www.amazon.com/Areta-Strep-T...TF8&qid=1417120603&sr=8-1&keywords=strep+test are tests used for strep. http://www.amazon.com/Phinex-Parame...F8&qid=1417120647&sr=8-1&keywords=urine+tests are used for urinary tract infections, kidney function and diabetes. What I'm saying is that test kits can be purchased to test for a host of issues instead of just randomly taking an antibiotic which may or may not be effective. Learn how to recognize symptoms and learn which antibiotics are effective against specific diseases. Also remember that a particular infection may not respond to some antibiotics and will need one that is more potent or acts differently.


I'm not a nurse, but we've used strep and urine tests for years. They've saved us numerous trips to the doctor for sore throats that weren't strep and UTIs, and they're a good investment. When the doctor tests us for strep with the same test, it costs $30 plus office visit $60, and I can buy them for $2.50 apiece. 

The urine strips expire quickly, but the strep tests are good for years. I also bought a mono test kit this year because our son had it and I wanted to know if it spread among the rest of us.


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## stickinthemud (Sep 10, 2003)

Thanks, Astrid & all.


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## TomC (Sep 21, 2005)

There are many good online resources that you should have in your possession, up to and including those on surgery, where there is no doctor and where there is no dentist. There are also free guide books on suturing from the companies that sell those supplies. I do not advocate doing any of the things that you will read but if and when things go south you may be the only on available. Though I have a nursing license I feel that I have a much better medical understanding from being an Army medic. I taught wilderness first aid which was just a bit more in depth than the red cross first aid type classes. Tom in TN


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## deb_rn (Apr 16, 2010)

I started "prepping" a couple years ago. Potable water, food, fire and warmth are priority! I have basic foods on hand. Since then, I was born again and realize that I don't need to be prepared for anything more than a weather catastrophe, because the other scenarios are of God's doing and HE has given me the assurance that I will be cared for, or taken to be with him. Either way... I WIN!!

Debbie R.N.


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