# Destroying the Grid..



## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

It seems that the government knows that a small attack, when coordinated across the grid, can take down the entire grid across the USA.

The government even has a study which describes the scenario:

_The U.S. could suffer a national blackout if attackers knocked out just nine of the country's electric-transmission substations on a hot summer day, according to a previously unreported study by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. _

_The study concluded that coordinated attacks in each of the nation's three separate electric systems could cause the entire power network to collapse, The Wall Street Journal reported Wednesday, citing people familiar with the agency's research._

_The commission concluded that the three electrical systems that serve the entire nation could go dark if as few as nine of the country's 55,000 electric-transmission substations were knocked out in the East, the West and in Texas, according to the report._

_A memo prepared at the commission for Wellinghoff before he briefed senior officials last year said "the entire United States grid would be down for at least 18 months, probably longer" if attackers knocked out just nine substations._

You can read the rest of the story here:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...l-blackout-from-power-grid-attack-study-says/

So the US has known this possibility existed but has taken no action at this point. 

I would suggest hanging on to the lamp oil and lamps just a little bit longer, it may be needed in the future.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

You beat me to it sidepasser...was just getting it together.

Well, at least they admit that what we thought was a possibility IS a possibility.

Need more panels and batteries.

Matt


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

I worked with a guy who was a chief engineer with the TVA and he told me several years ago that taking out the grid for the whole eastern seaboard would be a relatively easy task with the right equipment. 

I think those that work in risk management and business continuity understand how vulnerable the grid is but to offset the risk would require a huge investment by the power companies. The power co. do not want to make that sort of investment "just in case something might happen"..they would rather upgrade equipment or lines that make them money.

Or on the other hand, perhaps they all like to stick their heads in the sand and say "oh it will never happen"..

I am pretty sure that no one ever thought a bunch of terrorists would hijack planes and take down the twin towers..but it happened.

I have always held a suspicion that the water supply would be a terrorist hit point..but if one takes that out, it likely only affects a small area. The grid on the other hand would lend itself to widespread panic, economic upheaval and death. Yes, all those poor folks that rely solely on electricity for ventilators, and other health issues would likely pass away. Diabetic supplies would go bad without refrigeration, so would other medicines that require stable constant cool temps.

Just thinking - I'd lose my job as our co. manufactures parts to keep the net running..without electric..no internet and not many phones either. Even generators will run out of gas/diesel and without electric..how do you get the diesel pumped out of tanks and back into tankers? When Huntsville lost power for almost a week, poor little Ardmore TN became the "gas station" for most of north Huntsville. Had to have state troopers to direct traffic, county deputies to keep order at this tiny little town that happened to have lots of gas and power. 

So I would think one needs to keep backup supplies and think about how you would store medicine that requires refrigeration, what to do about oxygen tanks if you need one, anything that requires electric to ensure that you stay alive should have another alternative or another energy alternative.

I think the US would go down the tubes without power for 18 months. So many people don't know how to live without it!


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

There is no national grid. The "grid" is made up of several regional grids with varying degrees of connectivity. There is a study that examined the effects of a solar flare like the Carrington Event. Even with another Carrington level event, some regional grids in the South would escape with less or possibly no damage. 

The potential for hacking exists. A hacker would have to go after a multitude of targets including all of the regional dispatch centers and the utility dispatch centers. That's a lot of targets to take down at one time. To be truly effective hackers would have to take down the telephone system and radio communications and each individual power plant.

I don't think so.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Funny that this has been talked about for years . . . . . . .
BUT . .finally . . .our beloved goooobermint starts yapping about one of the best--un -kept secrets--out there.

Because the corporate bean counters are--of course--stingy with stocking spare parts . . .does / should / will the corrupt Feds get into the picture **mandating** this and that.

Imagine the fiasco if the tyrant stroked his *pen* and took over the Whole grid.... 

Yup more panels and candles.

But it is hard to argue against Ernie's point of folks better learn how to attempt to live totally without electricity......


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Live Free or Die Hard, the movie. In case you didn't see it, it is about hackers going after the grid. I see the reaction of folks in the movie (those losing the power and cell phones) as pretty much what I'd expect.
Folks are too dependent on electricity.
Oh, and I don't think it would take 18 months. I'd be surprised if, as a society, we made it 2 months.

Matt


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## puddlejumper007 (Jan 12, 2008)

well i hope the ones who should be doing something about it, and are doing nothing are all in elevators when it happens.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Darren said:


> There is no national grid. The "grid" is made up of several regional grids with varying degrees of connectivity. There is a study that examined the effects of a solar flare like the Carrington Event. Even with another Carrington level event, some regional grids in the South would escape with less or possibly no damage.
> 
> The potential for hacking exists. A hacker would have to go after a multitude of targets including all of the regional dispatch centers and the utility dispatch centers. That's a lot of targets to take down at one time. To be truly effective hackers would have to take down the telephone system and radio communications and each individual power plant.
> 
> I don't think so.


No there isn't one huge national grid, the study pointed out there are three major regional grids and by targeting only nine substations, the entire US would be without power. 

Granted a terrorist would have to know which nine are to be targeted, but the possibility exists that a terrorist who knows our grid system could implement something along those lines and knock power out to a major portion of the US. 

As far as hacking, it goes on everyday. Many times those hacked don't even know it has occurred. Sometimes a hack is only done to get information, not cause a disruption. I would not think that it would be that hard to hack a phone system as most are computerized these days, even the phones are small handheld computers and have to have virus protection. 

As I have always been told "where there is a will, there is a way". At least the government acknowledges that now it can happen.


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

If folks remember, there was a BIG power outage for a few days in N.Y, the Eastern US and Canada in 2003 when the First Energy transmission line overloaded. No one knows if there have been changes to how that sysem is operating.
Ohio Rusty ><>


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

My husband writes software for the electrical utility industry and has for the past 20 years. 

One of the main problems is funding. A lot of small and/or rural carriers are operating on software that is 20 years old. Remember that big stimulus that Obama did when he first came into office and a lot of people in here all thought was a waste? Well, a big chunk of it went into "updating infrastructure". What that means is that they had to buy computers and the software to make their little chunk of the grid up to date. That stuff isn't cheap nor does it get implemented quickly. It takes a while to get each power pole in the software, the routes the electricity takes and all the junctions and other stuff that happens without us thinking about it when we flip the switch.

Of course now there aren't many municipalities, rural carriers or coops that are willing or can lay down the funds to update on their own and the federal dollars have dried up. Also, building security around the physical stations takes time and money. 

Basically if they haven't updated now, it's going to be a long while before they can.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Ohio Rusty said:


> If folks remember, there was a BIG power outage for a few days in N.Y, the Eastern US and Canada in 2003 when the First Energy transmission line overloaded. No one knows if there have been changes to how that sysem is operating.
> Ohio Rusty ><>


That showed how a small event cascaded until it took several regions down. There where lessons learned from that. The gird came back up according to a plan that used a natural gas fired power plant as the first unit. The sequence that followed was informative. Utilities have a plan for that. That's why I said a hacker would have to knock out all communications.

The grid in West Virginia was not knocked out probably because the state is an energy exporter. Shutting down the interties won't take down the power everywhere. You'll still have isolated areas with power. 

I'm still more concerned about another Carrington event. Mankind has been watching the Sun for hundreds of years. That doesn't mean we have enough data to predict when another Carrington event may occur. 

The next one will be killer.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

I've heard some of those crazy conspiracy theorists suggest that the government itself would target the grid in a false flag attack. This would be designed to justify a war in order to mask an economic collapse. The idea being that they tried to get us into a war with Syria but the people wouldnt support it so they need to bring an attack to our doorstep in order to get support.

Personally I don't believe it as we all know the economy is recovering!


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I believe all monopolized/government-subsidized systems are put together to be both, a little on the fragile side, and, easily shut off for the SOLE PURPOSE of control.

Most people today are subject to all such conglomerates..... food, energy, electricity, monetary system, medical, etc...... Any or all can be controlled by a very small group, by design.

And that, my friends, is why we are learning and interacting on Homesteading Today.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

You can call it "conspiracy" or not the fact of the matter is that there is far too many scum-bags in our goobermint who have enough control as to order nasty happenings. And those scum-bags could care less about "collateral damage" . .We need to pare down the population by many millions anyway . .(their thinking)
Those idiots already have their own safe haven compounds ready for them to duck into. 
I would not take any bets as to who will pull the trigger . .will they be from Iran or Chicago . . .????

All I can do about this mess is take care of my own little homestead........


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

sidepasser said:


> No there isn't one huge national grid, the study pointed out there are three major regional grids and by targeting only nine substations, the entire US would be without power.
> 
> Granted a terrorist would have to know which nine are to be targeted, but the possibility exists that a terrorist who knows our grid system could implement something along those lines and knock power out to a major portion of the US.
> 
> ...


I don't know where the three regional grids came from. There's quite a few more than that. Looks like ten, maybe eleven, to me.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Jim-mi said:


> All I can do about this mess is take care of my own little homestead........



Therein is the most honorable and sustainable action a body can take.

They want us to take their world upon our shoulders.

Life wasn't meant to be so complicated.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Darren said:


> I don't know where the three regional grids came from. There's quite a few more than that. Looks like ten, maybe eleven, to me.


Take a look at that map again. Notice how the west, east, and Texas are actually seperated. Few actuial interconnects exist between them. 

That is not true with the regions shown on the eastern side. They are so interconnected they cannot operate without each other. The seperation between them is in regulation only.

WWW


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Perhaps you'll find this interesting and give a slightly different perspective. These are the interconnections for America and Canada. The main control center for the western interconnection is in a hidden facility in the middle of British Columbia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_area_synchronous_grid


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

It only took seconds for the power to fail back in 2003. 

There is a lot of info out there about this topic. Google emp commission, NOAA has a site for sun "alerts", and more. If Icould cut and paste on this droid I could add them  . 

As to your lamps, I tried mineral spirits in one and it was great. No odor, smoke or residue on the wick. Cheaper than lamp oil, too. Stores well.

The thing that scares me about a long term power outage is the fact prison security and nuclear plant operations both depend on electric. Long term, toasty oats.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Drunk drivers take out part of our grid every summer.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

We're extremely lucky the 911 suicide bombers weren't smart... or we might have fallen.


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## manygoatsnmore (Feb 12, 2005)

I do believe our power grids are vulnerable to terrorist attacks, and there is always the chance of a Carrington event. If the Western grid goes down, that is a HUGE area affected, and I happen to live there, so it is where I'm focused. I figure if I'm well prepared to survive grid down long term, I'm prepped to survive anything less. I'm not totally prepared, but every day I try to do something that gets me a little bit closer.


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## Dan B. (Feb 23, 2014)

Jim-mi said:


> All I can do about this mess is take care of my own little homestead........





Forerunner said:


> Therein is the most honorable and sustainable action a body can take.
> 
> They want us to take their world upon our shoulders.
> 
> Life wasn't meant to be so complicated.


Yes and Yes. I hardly ever watch the news or listen to news radio. It bums me out. Maybe it's like sticking my head in the sand. But I make sure our food is stocked, the wood pile is stacked full and the guns are loaded. Other than voting (IMO they are all liars but I still vote for the last offensive...hard to be tho) there isn't much I care to contribute. :shrug:



manygoatsnmore said:


> I'm not totally prepared, but every day I try to do something that gets me a little bit closer.


So true......whether is be filling that last gas can, adding another tank of propane or stocking a little more grub, it all matters. I'm just getting started in this journey but I'm chipping away at it a little at a time.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

Just as a side note..

This isn't an article about hacking into the system.

It is about the ability of one or 2 people to cut the chain link, walk in and physically cut the wires and then shoot the transformers.
(as happened in California)

It points out that these stations are unmanned, unprotected with just chain link around them.

Easy peasy to do.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Copper thefts here have resulted in power loss to various areas. It take a long time to get new transformers and have them installed. I am really surprised that nothing has been done to attempt to protect the equipment at area substations.


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## bigjon (Oct 2, 2013)

yes our power went out in2003.we already had a portable gen in place because of the icestorm before it.now in 2014,we have a whole house gen in place-even runs my shop-BIG propane tank filled.WHY?electric company hasn't got any smarter about sub stations or cascade failures.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Really don't have to cut fences, to shoot the transformers... unfortunately....


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## defenestrate (Aug 23, 2005)

The bottom line here for me is that the grid is far more vulnerable than most of us would like to think. Exactly how vulnerable is partially up for debate, because without accurate information from top engineers and administrators for each portion of the grid (which, by design, will *never* likely happen), none of us regular folk, regardless of technical ability or relevant experience, will be able to provide a truly dependable failure mode diagram for more than small portions of grid areas. Compartmentalization of duties, trade secrets, and "security" concerns at all levels keep the best and brightest from knowing all relevant information at once in almost all, if not all cases.

What we can control is how vulnerable we as individuals/families/neighborhoods are to complete blackouts. Where we choose to live, what backup power options we have, and which non-electric technologies we can or do substitute in times of need or in everyday life can be all the difference between starving, being forced to depend on others, or quietly riding out troubles like grid failure over an extended period of time.


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

I read a blog from a guy living through an economic collapse in south America ... I wanna say Argentina?
He reported that the first signs of the collapse were the random grid failures. These failures were caused by the government not maintaining the utilities and infrastructure. They lasted anywhere from hours to weeks. The other major sign was the increased length of time for his government to respond effectively with emergency aid after a disaster (natural or otherwise).
I have read many other blogs, articles, and books that agree but I am mobile and cannot link.

I'm sure a determined group could temporarily disable us in any number of ways, but our own bankrupt government will be the real problem.

I've worked in power, water, and waste water. There are alternatives and back ups. There are some really creative mechanics on the ground that have spent a lifetime mastering the art of making chicken salad outta chicken -----. I got out of that line of work because I was tired of working with a non existant budget. The band aids can only hold together for so long.


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

I mentioned on this site years ago, right after the twin tower attack, that if the terriost would have planned a bigger attack and aimed at our electrical grid system, they would have devestated us into a long, long, depression. It would take years to rebuild all those electrical producing facilities and get us back up and running.


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## Dan B. (Feb 23, 2014)

My dad works in a large eastern electrical power plant. I can tell you for a fact that this things is held together with sawdust. They use it to plug leaks in any of the waterlines. They are always patching lines and fixing the old fixes.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Dan B. said:


> My dad works in a large eastern electrical power plant. I can tell you for a fact that this things is held together with sawdust. They use it to plug leaks in any of the waterlines. They are always patching lines and fixing the old fixes.


Let me guess. It wouldn't by chance be a coal fired plant would it? The other thing that wouldn't surprise me is if the plant belonged to TVA.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Oldcountryboy said:


> I mentioned on this site years ago, right after the twin tower attack, that if the terriost would have planned a bigger attack and aimed at our electrical grid system, they would have devestated us into a long, long, depression. It would take years to rebuild all those electrical producing facilities and get us back up and running.


The so-called grid isn't the homogenous thing people think. Even if all the regional grids went down, there's still the potential to power areas within region around power plants. There's no way terrorists could destroy all of the power generating stations in the US. The worst they could do is hit the country with an EMP to destroy the main transformers at the stations. Even then some would probably survive.

One of the things every adversary has underestimated is the sheer size of this country and how it is the sum of its parts. Those parts make it impossible for terrorists to take down every thing in one stroke. 

Mother nature ... yes! Terrorists ...no!


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## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

Yes, I believe there would be islanding.... for a while. But there is also the likely possibility that the failsafe breakers, well fail, and then the plant goes down. 

The other issue is fuel. Coal & NG generation plants don't stockpile much [coal] if any [NG] fuel reserves. They depend on trains & Pipelines to provide the fuel Just In Time JIT.

SO yes, it would be crippling, not necessarily fatal. But crippling can be VERY bad.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

It depends on the time of the year. Coal is stockpiled for the winter months at power plants. I'm not sure how vulnerable pipeline supply is. The compressor stations that utilize NG fueled engines should be OK. The ones powered by electric motors like in some places in Texas would be vulnerable.


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