# The Hoover AL mall shooting , CCW permits and issues of both sides...



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

...that the media isn't talking about.

Thanksgiving night a shooting occurred at the Gallaria Mall in Hoover, shoppers and the shooter scattered outward from the shooting area as a early 20s aged CCW permit holder apparently drew his CCW and possibly started to follow the shooter based on some reports, however as of Tuesday mall security footage and police body cam footage are still being reviewed by the ALEA investigation unit.

Although a fatality autopsy was performed, the family of the CCW permit holder had a privately requested autopsy performed and released to the media that the deceased was murdered by LEOs with 3 shots to the back of the head. right back and hip.

Things that the media do not dwell on is that although CCW permitted, the deceased was in a mall designated as a gun Free Zone which invalidated the CCW permit of the man who died.

Also the mall is both part of a police department foot beat area and also has off duty LEOs working in uniform part time as security.

One newspaper article stated that the officer who shot the CCW permit holder did so because he was brandishing a firearm and pursuing the crowd. The family says he had his weapon out to chase the shooter.

The newspaper article as televised news both avoid the fact that as a gun free zone patrolled by both on duty and uniformed off duty moonlighting officers if he had his weapon out and running into the crowd, to the LEO who shot him, he would be a threat in the post shooting police action.

I see so many here in my area who think having a CCW permit is the equivalent of wearing a LEO badge when in reality all the permit does is give the holder permission to carry concealed and even then the permit is only valid until a LEO requests I.D and the holder must present the permit and disclose the location of their CCW and in a posted gun free zone it's not valid.

Instead of carrying concealed in a gun free zone mall, the permit holder in reality could only legally carry in a non posted mall or store and only legally draw his CCW if he was down range of the actual shooter also

Of course once ALEA concludes their investigation and releases all video, if the deceased permit holder is shown brandishing his firearm regardless of his intention being to pursue the shooter or not, it would seem the LEO was justified as the actual shooter ran outward with the crowd.

I know the value of a CCW permit, but I also know the three times I have had the misfortune of going with someone into a gun free zone store or mall during the last 25 years, when I placed my carry weapon into the gun safe bolted down in my console box, as I entered the store I felt naked and couldn't wait to get out of that fish barrel of a store.

The anti gun /anti LEA / BLM activists and media are victim sensationalizing this situation but from what I am reading, just because that mall chose to go gun free zone, if the videos show the dead CCW permit holder with a weapon in his hand running into the crowd that the initial shooter targeted and ran off within, the shooting will be justified to the displeasure of the activists and media.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

The details of the state's GFZ law are important. In some states a posted gun free zone (or as I prefer, guaranteed helpless victim zone) have the force of law with varying consequences. In other states, legally, the posting is no more than a private request such as in Indiana where if you are caught, the worst they can do is ask you to leave with no legal consequences so long as you leave otherwise you can be charged with trespassing.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

It is very unfortunate 3 rounds to the back do seem a little suspicious of poor conduct , fortunately but unfortunately many people have a definite do good response they want to save everyone else the problem is they don't always think about the place that puts them rushing into a situation, the police unfortunately shoot their own officers fairly frequently they don't stay in the news long but it has happened. off duty walking out of his own house in his own yard after an altercation that took place on the front lawn gun pointed at the ground , he had grabbed it out of his holster as he walked out the door to investigate the commotion and one of the guys from his own department shot him dead.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Every situation is different. I carry a CC weapon to defend myself and my loved one's from harm. I do not believe that I should take the law into my own hands just because I am carrying a weapon. Every adult person in that mall made a choice to either carry or not to carry. It is not my responsibility to protect those who chose to not carry. They made their decision. (yes, I know there may be unaccompanied teens in the mall who would carry if it were legal)

In Minnesota, a law-abiding permit-to-carry holder can carry into a private establishment that has been legally posted to not allow firearms. It is not breaking the law by doing so. However, if the owner of that establishment determines that you are carrying and he asks you to leave, and you do not leave, then you are in violation of MN trespass law.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Sorry but Shooting someone in the back just won’t ever look good


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Sorry but Shooting someone in the back just won’t ever look good


It's all dependent on the circumstances.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> Sorry but Shooting someone in the back just won’t ever look good


Even while that individual is mowing down defenseless victims?


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Shooting a suspected perpetrator in the back is generally frowned on by the public regardless of their views of personal firearm protection view although active shooter situations all vary and the appropriate lethal force response is dependent on the degree of variation.

LEOs don't always respond from a face to face down range position, however since the availability of body armor to civilians has increased over the years, the majority now are often trained to head shoot with accuracy in addition to the historical center mass targeting in a Mozambique Drill shooting stance delivery.

Unfortunately this investigation may take time to address all aspects and during that time, parts of the community will continue to protest the death of the CCW permit holder despite that currently the only facts that the public knows is the permit holder was in violation of state law carrying into the gun free zone posted mall, there was a police presence and the deceased was going into the same crowd as the actual shooter.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the reality is it could have just as easily been an off duty cop , so they need to get their procedure worked out how they are going to not shoot each other just as much as not shooing CCW people.

unless off duty start wearing highly visible identification , and I mean bigger than the badge on their belt next to their holster , it seems the procedure they followed does nothing to address the danger to off duty and plain cloths officers getting shot.

there are several police non traditional uniformed officers that have a meet up at a restaurant I eat lunch at some times 6 guys around a table in dockers and polo shirts , they have a tiny embroidered department ID on some of the shirts and half size badge on their belts next to the IWB holsters where just the grip of the gun is visible. occasionally one of them has a radio on the table.

I was at a training a few weeks back , we even had FBI present , the FBI had zero visible identification but was carrying a full size glock with light not very well concealed by his jacket , not a suit jacket , a Columbia hooded insulated rain jacket or similar.

cops don't all fit a look , when off duty one could look like he just walked out of a biker bar and the next one could look like he should be behind a turn table at a rave.

NYPD went through this many years ago they had several off duty officers shot by other officers both on and off duty. now part of the issue was this was when NYC was getting some of it's first African american officers and obviously some officers had fallen onto the stereotype that a black male with a gun is always the criminal even when his actions really didn't suggest it . which wasn't the case when they shot other NYPD officers who happened to not fit their image of an NYPD officer.


the real shame would be if the department brushes this off as a CCW holder who was breaking the law by being in a GFZ with a gun, because the chances are that next time this will be one of their own or neighboring departments officers they shoot.

*oh and by the way the man in a GFZ with a gun who is justified in the use of lethal force with a gun , is justified to have the gun ALL the BS anti carry laws anti 2nd amendment laws go out the window the instant you are justified to shoot ALL of those laws become Unconstitutional as they apply to you in that instant.
*
the sooner people can accept that all these carry laws are is an infringement of the second amendment , stopping on your constitutional right so that you won't have the gun on you when they become legally justified and all their crap laws fly out the window as they apply to you. 

rethink permission slips they are nice because they allow us the least infringement most of us have known in our life time but make no mistake they are just that an infringement.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> the reality is it could have just as easily been an off duty cop , so they need to get their procedure worked out how they are going to not shoot each other just as much as not shooing CCW people.
> 
> unless off duty start wearing highly visible identification , and I mean bigger than the badge on their belt next to their holster , it seems the procedure they followed does nothing to address the danger to off duty and plain cloths officers getting shot.
> 
> ...


You made some good points, such as it could just as easily been a fellow LEO in that instance pursuing a suspect.
Part of the training is to identify a suspect as much as possible and assess the danger before using lethal force.
In hindsight, there are valid points for either side in this one.
The fact that it turned out to be the wrong guy indicates it couldn't have been THAT good of a decision.

It may be semantics, but perhaps a lesser term could be used other than "justified".
That means something else to most people, that there wasn't any mistakes made in the shooting by the police.
I never thought much about it before, but sometimes the words "tragic but not criminal" come to mind.......


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

IndyDave said:


> Even while that individual is mowing down defenseless victims?


 Even then. 
I’m sorry but westerns have influenced our character to the point where even in that situation shooting somebody in the back wont look right.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

IndyDave said:


> Even while that individual is mowing down defenseless victims?


 And in this case he wasn’t mowing down helpless victims this goes to a basic flaw in police procedure in this country ,we are innocent until proven guilty ,to be proven guilty you have to do something. For the police to shoot somebody that is not doing something is wrong yeah translation that means you got to give him the first shot.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

you don't have to give him first shot but but if he is in a low ready carry aiming at the floor (I don't know what this guy was doing ) and not raising his gun to shoot at you or even turning at you and is not firing further identification should be made because maybe it's the cop from the next town over trying to help out , he just happened to be at the Mall shopping with his wife.

this is one of the things that were being discussed in response to school shooters , you are going to have every available officer drop everything and go to the school.

will of duty officers take the time to put on some sort of Identification that can clearly be seen. do they even carry that in their personal cars?


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

This evening's television news had further coverage on this situation and instead of protest coverage , this time the report was a short interview with the Birmingham based defense attorney assigned to represent the original shooter who has been extradited back to Alabama for shooting a teenager that started the situation with the "shot heard round the mall" that ended with the uniform officer now on admin leave who shot the CCW permit holder in the stampede that followed.

Although I know that the D.A. must present their available evidence to the defense to prepare their case, I noted that the defense counsel of the defendant of the first part of this two incident situation stated that while he and the D.A. were in agreement that it was a complicated situation, neither of their offices yet had access to the official investigation reports yet.

Although the deceased's family is in protest mode in the media, the district attorney and defense counsel both are in agreement that their cases in this are both waiting on the release of the official investigation results and video evidence.


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## Veedog (May 4, 2015)

I’ve heard reports that there were quite a few citizens that were carrying concealed in the mall, and drew their handguns when the shooting erupted. I’m sure all the security videos will show what went down. But it seems running with a gun in an active shooting scene is dangerous for anyone but uniformed police. Now the black lives matters people were blocking part of the freeway the other night in protest to this shooting. I notice that they weren’t protesting anything about the shooter who started this whole mess. When a white shoots a black it’s protest time, when a black shoots a white or another black it’s hardly newsworthy. I’m curious if the cop had a bodycam on? Shooting a person in the head while he’s running takes some skill. I sure hope the dead guy wasn’t just standing there and trying to take hold of the situation to see where the shots were coming from and trying to be helpful. That’s gonna look real bad if the cop just ran up and shot him from behind 3 times. I’m not sure what the right thing to do is now during an active shooting event. Here in Alabama a good number of people carry concealed. And I for damn sure am not gonna count on a gun free zone to keep me safe. Concealed means concealed, signs be damned.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

I find it interesting the GFZ law doesn't apply to off duty cops as well. They are citizens, why should they be armed when nobody else can be? I'll probably get chewed for that one, but there it is. Cops should have to follow the laws too.

And, I'm actually surprised nobody mentioned this... the guy who was shot had a gun out and was following a crowd of people with it. And was shot in the back by armed cops (in a gun free zone no less). So, the cops were firing into a crowd of people hoping they would get lucky and hit this one person with the gun?? Just wow. That's one of the first things you get taught not to do in hunters safety classes. Someone please take these particular cops' guns away. You know how high speed chases are sometimes called off because of danger to civilians? Yeah.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Even then.
> I’m sorry but westerns have influenced our character to the point where even in that situation shooting somebody in the back *wont look right*.


It makes no difference how it "looks".
You do what you have to do depending on circumstances.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Veedog said:


> Shooting a person in the head while he’s running takes some skill.


Not if you're aiming at something else.


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## Veedog (May 4, 2015)

Yeah it makes you wonder what he was aiming at when the reports are he was shot in the back of head, his hip, and in his back. Can’t wait to see the cops body cam. It must be bad, because otherwise they would of put it out to calm the protests. I’m sure there is a bunch of surveillance video in that mall, the cops not gonna be able to mislead anyone with his own version of events. They already had to fix their first report of the shooting. Originally the dead guy was an active shooter and the cop saved the day. The next day was, oops we shot a good guy, and we’re looking for the other shooter.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Veedog said:


> Yeah it makes you wonder what he was aiming at when the reports are he was shot in the back of head, his hip, and in his back. Can’t wait to see the cops body cam. It must be bad, because otherwise they would of put it out to calm the protests. I’m sure there is a bunch of surveillance video in that mall, the cops not gonna be able to mislead anyone with his own version of events. They already had to fix their first report of the shooting. Originally the dead guy was an active shooter and the cop saved the day. The next day was, oops we shot a good guy, and we’re looking for the other shooter.


I realize that these active shooter situations need to be handled immediately. But as they are becoming more and more common, I think some basic protocol and safety measures should be implemented to prevent cops (or anyone else!) from spewing live rounds into crowds like this, and hoping they hit the intended target. In this case it was even worse, as the guy wasn't even the real shooter. I won't pretend to hold the answers to this problem, but it needs to be thought about in depth for the future. "Know your target and what's behind your target".... pretty basic stuff that any run of the mill hunter needs to understand. Cops should exercise more care when handling these situations in crowded places.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

funny you mention it , Wisconsin forgot to allow off duty officers school grounds carry when not on official business , they "fixed it" 2 years latter when citizens were pushing for school grounds carry and pointed out that it was very likely nearly every cop had already committed that felony so before they had to go and arrest one of their own the "fixed it"

a few people in Wis have accidentally committed that Felony a few have also been charged think about that there should not be an Accidental felony , turning around in a parking lot across the street from a school that is not even marked or driving on the street in front of a school should not be a reason to loose your freedom. but yet it exists the republican Majority , republican governor and republican assembly leadership refused to allow a vote on the bill to fix it. now they lost the governorship.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

There are body cam and other videos of the incident, but are still being held from the public while they investigate.
It'll be interesting to see all the facts instead of different versions of the story.
I read he had the gun drawn and another said it was in his waistband.
One interview with his family said he knew one of the victims that was shot in the mall which would be a reason for taking off after the guy, if that's what he was doing, and not just a random bystander.
We'll have to wait and see.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

11 days later and all that the public knows for sure is :

1) The deceased was 21 which means he only had his permit for less than a year as we have to be 21 years old to legally carry handguns open or concealed.

2) The deceased was shot 3 times but only the official fatality autopsy which is still under investigation will know if all three rounds came from the same weapon.

3) There is a wounded teen male and 12 year old currently connected only to the shooter extradited in the first part of the incident and the attorneys both say the deceased and some of the parties of the original shooting were acquainted .

4) Although they are still counting and plotting shot paths in the mall, the merchants are lamenting the drop in mall traffic and sales that they are attributing to the ongoing investigation, protests and "normal human response to avoid potentially dangerous areas".


Number 4 sort of perplexes me because although I carry and avoid GFZ stores, I would think inside that mall with all the local, county and state officers currently in it would make those not carrying feel safer.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Shrek said:


> 4) Although they are still counting and plotting shot paths in the mall, the merchants are lamenting the drop in mall traffic and sales that they are attributing to the ongoing investigation, protests and "normal human response to avoid potentially dangerous areas".
> 
> 
> Number 4 sort of perplexes me because although I carry and avoid GFZ stores, I would think inside that mall with all the local, county and state officers currently in it would make those not carrying feel safer.


Oh come on Shrek I know you’re all Kissy face with the cops but even you must understand that since the mall is full of the very same people that did the killing it doesn’t seem like a very good place. 
Sorry cops with guns just made a lot of people apprehensive people don’t trust them anymore.


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