# horses and fireworks?



## opportunity (Mar 31, 2012)

OK to there are some really rude people in town who do not care what they do. I had my horses boarded a a girls house and her husband set off huge illigal fireworks that caused my horses to run though the fence. :bash: Theses same people casued at least two other peoples horse to run though fences as well. Needless to say I now have my two girls at home in my yard. So now two days latter it's the fourth and the people who live about 500 feet from us are having a huge party and have already started setting of big booming fireworks. What can I do for my poor girls they are very agitated and afraid I have them in the yard in a round pen (this is my front yard that the kid usually plays in so partly shaded and nice green grass).


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Since it is last minute, there may not be much you can do. Just try to keep them cool and provide lots of water. If they run around and work themselves into a sweat, perhaps spray them with cool water.

We pasture our horses behind our house. Several times throughout the year we will target shoot near the pasture(safely, of course) and we will often shoot fireworks and firecrackers off in their pasture. It soon becomes old news and they may lift their head and look in the first loud boom. It's something we like to desensitize ours too because booms and loud noises are a part of life. 

After the fourth, maybe look up local mounted shooting clubs and see if they will assist you in training your horses. Training is easier if there are other gunproofed horses around. After our first two were desensitized, I never had an issue with new horses and "booms".


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

A few years back, I had a new-to-me mare with a young foal who had never been exposed to fireworks before. With a foal that she felt she needed to protect, she was very agitated. I was afraid to put her in a big pasture because I didn't want her to get up a full head of steam and put herself through the fence, so I had her in a small paddock. That presented its own set of problems, however, because she kept pacing and turning, pacing and turning and the foal kept getting bumped around. I was afraid she might injure him. So I gave her some Acepromazine ("Ace") from the vet. This calmed her enough that she stopped pacing. She did sweat a fair amount, and twitch and startle when the neighbors set off those huge multicolor fountains at night. But she and the foal got through it fine. Now she hardly raises her head at the fireworks.

What kind of fence did your horses go through? Board? Wire? Tape? The round pen sounds like your best bet. You could improvise some horsey earplugs.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Here's some good info on equine ear plugs:

Equine Earplugs - Mounted Shooting Horse Network


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

It's too late to do anything about this year but why don't you work with your horses so they don't have problems with loud noises. Our trainer did us a wonderful favor. When DD's Joshua was first being trained he took Josh with him behind his house. His son and their friends were shooting stuff. It was really amazing to watch. At first he jumped in the air but then an amazing thing happened. He didn't jump away; he came towards our trainer. He knew he was safest with him. We have kept this up. From time to time we shoot behind the house. We're out in the boonies so our boys hear gunshots all the time. They don't even look up anymore.

Anyway, I think that your horses would be safer if they learn that fireworks and loud noises won't kill them. Fireworks are something that won't stop because they scare anybody's horses. I don't think that fireworks cause horses to go through fences. Horses are goofy things and can spook when they see a Walmart bag.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

This is a training opportunity. Go in the pen with your pockets full of grain. Bridle each horse. When they spook, jump, shy, etc. they get a Whoa! and a strong correction with the bit. When they stand calm they get praise and a handful of grain. Soon they will look forward to the blasts because they will associate it with a treat.


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

Not parade horses uh?

Mine come to the bang to see whats going on.

Cattle & dogs are another story.

They are banned here right now, I hope people comply, fires in every direction and it's dry dry dry dry .

L.A.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

L.A. said:


> Mine come to the bang to see whats going on.


Mine do as well. We will have friends come over to target shoot when we do. We usually have to call a hold at least once and **** the horses away, because they've walked up to see what all the humans are up to.

It's one of those lessons that we do like hobble training. I don't hobble my horses, but they are trained to calmly wait to be unhobbled. They gotten tangled in ropes before and done just what they were trained to do, wait to be let go. I remember seeing a picture of a horse that was hobble trained, calmly standing in downed and tangled cattle wire, not a scratch, just waiting to be "unhobbled".

We shoot guns and fireworks so the horses get used to it, because how often have folks been out trail riding and someone in the distance fires a gun or a backfire from a vehicle? Just one of those things. We cannot control the world around our horses, the only thing we can do is prepare our horses to best deal with things they will or may encounter.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Yep, it's a twice a year thing -- New Years Eve, too.

What bothers me even more are the firing of guns for both occasions by not too smart folks. Shooting in the air. What goes up has to come down and someone is usually killed. We target shoot with a mountain for a back drop.


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## chewie (Jun 9, 2008)

> It's one of those lessons that we do like hobble training. I don't hobble my horses, but they are trained to calmly wait to be unhobbled. They gotten tangled in ropes before and done just what they were trained to do, wait to be let go. I remember seeing a picture of a horse that was hobble trained, calmly standing in downed and tangled cattle wire, not a scratch, just waiting to be "unhobbled".


this is very smart. used to really holler when dh would rope my horses' back feet. argh! then, a few mishaps, which included wire and other ropes etc. and my horse did not get harmed one bit, or even upset, proved that this is very sound training.

and thanks for reminding of it, I haven't done much of this with copper, and as soon as he's moving a bit better, that's what will be doing!


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

tinknal said:


> This is a training opportunity. Go in the pen with your pockets full of grain. Bridle each horse. When they spook, jump, shy, etc. they get a Whoa! and a strong correction with the bit. When they stand calm they get praise and a handful of grain. Soon they will look forward to the blasts because they will associate it with a treat.


Treats or grain yes. As for the rest? No. The bridle and bit are not supposed to be used for punishment.

Horses will adjust. I have a spooky jumpy Arabian mare that barely notices the fireworks, shooting, airplanes flying over, etc that regularly happen in my neighborhood. 

When we first moved here I would stand in the pasture to calm them if needed during fireworks. They generally calmed down pretty quick.


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## opportunity (Mar 31, 2012)

My older horse has been used for everything she was a ranch horse up untill March and she has been hunted off of and she went though both a board fence (three 2x6's and then a 4 strand smooth wire) They did set the massive one off only 20 feet from her people came to see what was going on from 1/2 mile away it was massive. My other horse has been exposed to far less but she only ran into the wood fence she was aparently farther away when they light it. I will definatly be working with them more though they seem fine tonight and the people that live about 500 feet away are having a lot of fun with fireworks. horses not even sweating this evening. 
I'm just glad one of the people who lives next to where i had been boarding told me what happened so I could bring them home they will not go back.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

DaniR1968 said:


> Treats or grain yes. As for the rest? No. The bridle and bit are not supposed to be used for punishment.
> 
> Horses will adjust. I have a spooky jumpy Arabian mare that barely notices the fireworks, shooting, airplanes flying over, etc that regularly happen in my neighborhood.
> 
> When we first moved here I would stand in the pasture to calm them if needed during fireworks. They generally calmed down pretty quick.


I don't think he's talking about using a bridle for punishment- you don't ever punish a horse for being scared. Rather this exercise is strengthening the horse's response to the bit. Getting the horse to whoa when exposed to a loud scary noise will just make for a more solid whoa.


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## dkrabec (Apr 5, 2012)

Desensitizing is your best bet definitely. However we all know that somethings stuff happens; so, I would like to also recommend keeping some valerian root on hand and if you know that a stressful event is pending give it to them an hour before. It takes the edge off and helps them relax. I have used it on all of mine at one time or another and had good results. Give two to five capsules, the more you give them more relaxed they will be. For example my daughters mare used to get excited around large groups of horses on trail rides, so we would give her two valerian root before we left and she stayed more relaxed, now that we have been riding more with large groups she is relaxed and we don't give it to her any more. Another example my gelding who just had to have surgery and had to stay quiet and confined for four weeks, I was giving him 5 capsules a day to keep him from pacing all day. Other vet ordered tranquilizers serve a purpose, but can have negative side affects and are not readily available. The valerian root is available and in my opinion safer, you can also experiment with it and get a feel for how your horse will respond to it. My gelding that had surgery gets so relaxed on five he just stands an rests, but I am still able to handle him and walk him up and down the road so he is not knocked out by it like vet ordered tranquilizers do. The VR does not knock them out it just takes the edge off. So for procedures where you need the horse knocked out stick with the vet's drugs.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

southerngurl said:


> I don't think he's talking about using a bridle for punishment- you don't ever punish a horse for being scared. Rather this exercise is strengthening the horse's response to the bit. Getting the horse to whoa when exposed to a loud scary noise will just make for a more solid whoa.


he/she said to give a strong correction with the bit. That to me is punishment and it not something I would ever consider or advise doing.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

opportunity said:


> My older horse has been used for everything she was a ranch horse up untill March and she has been hunted off of and she went though both a board fence (three 2x6's and then a 4 strand smooth wire) They did set the massive one off only 20 feet from her people came to see what was going on from 1/2 mile away it was massive. My other horse has been exposed to far less but she only ran into the wood fence she was aparently farther away when they light it. I will definatly be working with them more though they seem fine tonight and the people that live about 500 feet away are having a lot of fun with fireworks. horses not even sweating this evening.
> I'm just glad one of the people who lives next to where i had been boarding told me what happened so I could bring them home they will not go back.


OMG! That really changes things. Who in their right mind sets off fireworks right next to a horse? Anyone with a brain knows animals are frightened by fireworks. Are they really that stupid or did they think it would be fun to see what would happen? I wouldn't board an ant with them. Glad your horses weren't hurt.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

DaniR1968 said:


> Treats or grain yes. As for the rest? No. The bridle and bit are not supposed to be used for punishment.
> 
> Horses will adjust. I have a spooky jumpy Arabian mare that barely notices the fireworks, shooting, airplanes flying over, etc that regularly happen in my neighborhood.
> 
> When we first moved here I would stand in the pasture to calm them if needed during fireworks. They generally calmed down pretty quick.


I don't interpret correction with punishment at all. Perhaps it's a difference in terms but where I come from correction means nothing more than correction - as in a learning experience. 

From a training persective and living on a working ranch, I can tell you that the last thing I have is an abundance of time to be standing out in the pasture, soothing Princess's nerves but then again, I need a trained horse, not a spoiled baby.


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## JPiantedosi (Apr 23, 2012)

I feld trial and handle/hunt bird dogs off of a few of our horses. I will put them in the round pen and siton the tailgate with a 6pack and crack off a few rounds through my starter pistol. then ill catch the horse and put them up. the next night same scenario but a little closer, till I can stand in the middle of the round pen and fire the starter pistol. then I will repeat the process while I am in the saddle out in the yard and will let my wife shoot th starter pistol. then move up to a shotgun. usually the first shot or 2 will get a bit of a jump then they will relax and will only flinch if it catches them off guard.

I have been at field trials where the gunners sounded like they were at the beaches of normandy, and my squirrel ass paso who is scared of her shadow never missed a beat.

It all just takes time.

Jim


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

DaniR1968 said:


> he/she said to give a strong correction with the bit. That to me is punishment and it not something I would ever consider or advise doing.


OK, 10 deep breaths. 


People get killed by horses all the time. They die because of the mindset displayed in your post.

Horses are not pets. They are large, potentially deadly livestock. The vast majority of time when a horse kills a human it is because they were trained with your type of mindset. If you allow a horse to exist that does not respect the bit _you_ will someday kill someone. The horse that kills a human invariably is also killed.

Go ahead and stick with this foolish philosophy, but for me this is blood that I never want on my hands.

Please, I beg you, never train for the public (or yourself) you will kill someone, maybe someone you love.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

:hijacked: I wouldn't shank on a horse's bit because it was squirreling around in fear of fireworks. If I was deliberately setting a horse up with a desensitization session with fireworks or something and doing groundwork with the horse, I'd put the horse in a rope halter. The way the advice was worded, it came across as a punishment thing to me, too, and I don't punish with the bit.


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## mountainwmn (Sep 11, 2009)

As far as I can tell, a rope halter is much more cruel than a bit, unless you're using a spade bit. I wouldn't use either to correct a horse for being scared. And I wouldn't want to desensitize a horse to fireworks while holding him at all, but thats just me. I would stall a horse that wasn't used to it, or a round pen is the next best thing.
And then I would buy a big box of half off fireworks....since we're after the 4th.. put em in the round pen, and start with the little ones. Actually that sounds like fun. I think I have to go desensitize my horse for a bit.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

jennigrey said:


> :hijacked: I wouldn't shank on a horse's bit because it was squirreling around in fear of fireworks. If I was deliberately setting a horse up with a desensitization session with fireworks or something and doing groundwork with the horse, I'd put the horse in a rope halter. The way the advice was worded, it came across as a punishment thing to me, too, and I don't punish with the bit.


It's not punishment. Do you use a bit when you ride? Do you use the bit to stop the horse? Is this punishment? Do you use the bit to turn the horse? Is this punishment?

Please, stop being fools!


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

tinknal said:


> OK, 10 deep breaths.
> 
> 
> People get killed by horses all the time. They die because of the mindset displayed in your post.
> ...


Take a few more breaths and brace yourself. Not only have I have trained several of my own horses, I help people with their horses. Usually just ground work, trailer loading, stuff like that. Most recently I took a 4 month old filly that the owner couldn't get a halter on and got her halter broke and loading in a trailer in 4 sessions. I also got her picking up her feet. No trauma to the horse, me or the owner. The filly is now easy to halter, lead, and load. She just had her first trim by the owner's farrier and stoop perfectly. I don't coddle but don't use force.

Two of the horses I have trained from the ground up were wild when I bought them. Both were born and raised in large pastures with little to no human interaction. One horse went to a 10 year old to endurance ride with his parents. The other is my endurance horse in training. In a group, he is the only one that doesn't react to sudden loud sounds or the model airplanes that fly near the trails we sometimes ride. He will go where I point him with no questions asked. 

And that spooky, jumpy Arabian mare? When I bought her she literally shook when even near a horse trailer. She now will goes in any trailer I ask her to because I was patient but firm with her. Not once did I think about "correcting" her for being scared. I'm sure it would have had the opposite effect. 


No offense but I think I'll continue to "spoil" my horses.


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## JPiantedosi (Apr 23, 2012)

Ive got a horse right now here that was never corrected for anything, she was "broke" to ride because she more or less decided that she would allow it, since folks were being so nice to her. After a while it wasn't fun any more and she decided life was gona go her way....... Had things continued to go her way she would have seriously hurt someone, or been put down.

long story short she went to a sale barn.... We got her home and corrected the heck out of her. we have never laid a had on her but she KNOWS that I am the boss and what I say goes. A correction doesn't have to be harsh but it sure as heck better get their attention

Horses need to be BROKE not coaxed.

Jim


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

tinknal said:


> It's not punishment. Do you use a bit when you ride? Do you use the bit to stop the horse? Is this punishment? Do you use the bit to turn the horse? Is this punishment?
> 
> Please, stop being fools!


I use the bit to signal something the horse already knows. I teach whoa and turning before I introduce the bit. I don't use the bit to train. If I am working on ground manners I don't use the bit.

You're getting rude.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

If you don't use a bit in training, how does the horse know what the bit means? 

You never ever use the bit firmly no matter what?


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Dangit, I had a big ol thing typed up and I lost it because I'm typing sideways to accommodate a cat in my lap. :sob:

Maybe I'll try typing it up again after lunch.

You are right, southerngurl - I _do_ use the bit for training. When I start introducing the bit and making the association between the leg, seat and rein signals with the corresponding signal from the bit, it is definitely training.

But I'm still digging my heels in at the suggestion to use the bit in-hand when training from the ground for a whoa in scary situations. Bits just aren't designed to be used in that direction in the mouth.

More later.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Either method will work fine, if used correctly.

I've used both just fine. When desensitizing a horse, I usually take them on a lead and rope halter. Introduce the "scary" item, they fidget and squirrel away while on the lead rope. We go round and round until they stop and then I make the "scary" item go away. It conditions them to whoa when something worries them.

I also condition them to whoa via the bit, bridle and surcingle in a "scary" situation.

With fireworks and guns, we start with them in their pasture. Then progress to the round pen and eventually under saddle.

Different ways to skin the same critter. Any training can be dangerous in the hands of an inexperience or unskilled person. Use any training with caution.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

No, one more quickie before chores:

I think one of the big sticking points for me was the phrase "strong correction" in conjunction with using the bit on a horse in-hand. That phrase, used in that fashion, put me in mind of yanking on the bit to get the horse to stand whoa. And I object to that. That, to me, is punishment - akin to a smack with a whip - and an improper use of the bit. I'm not saying that I don't punish. I do, when I need to. But I do _not_ punish with the bit unless the horse is doing something out of aggression, such as bite or strike. And I do not administer any punishment when a horse is misbehaving out of fear.

If tinknal wasn't suggesting that a person yank on the bit when the horse spooks, then it was just a miscommunication. But I wanted to chime in and say that 1.) the way the advice was worded, that's how it it came across to me (to yank on the bit in-hand when the horse spooks at the fireworks) and 2.) I wouldn't use the bit in that manner, myself.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

A surcingle would allow the bit to lie correctly in the mouth when working in-hand from the ground. If you're approaching a scary object, crossing a tarp or whathaveyou, it works fine. But to control the startle response from a sharp noise, it is less than ideal. If it is a situation that I'm deliberately devising, I'd much rather have the horse hit the end of the lead on a halter (rope halter being my preference) than jump into the bit when I'm on the ground. When you are mounted or in a cart and can go with the animal, he won't hit his mouth so hard.

Okay, I'll stop beating it. :bdh:


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

I guess it's just how people translate or assume "correction" is used. I read "strong correction" and thought "correction," not yank or shank. Emotions and intentions are often lost in text and lead to arguments.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

Not being argumentative, really. What do you think was meant by giving a strong correction with the bit? I cannot see any way to give a correction using a bit other than yank or jerk. If the person had said hold the reins and let the horse correct itself when it jerks back or whatever, I could sort of see. I wouldn't do that in this situation but that's just me.

As for using the bit in training. I train my horses in halter and teach leg, seat, and rein aides. When I introduce the bit, the horse knows what I am asking with my seat and legs so the direct rein use is light. Of course both neck rein so direct contact with the bit is minimal. I usually don't use the bit to correct a horse; but when my gelding started flipping his head up and down to let me know he wanted to go faster, I put him in a ported bit. He corrected himself when he would flip his head. 

If he needs correcting for some behavior, that's what the crop is for.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Dani, if you make it so the horse NEVER feels a strong cue through the bit, then when something happens and the strong cue is used, like a spook or another dangerous situation, the horse may panic. They do need to experience that so they don't panic when it eventually does happen.

I never jerk the bit, but I let the horse pull on it some that's for sure. And release when he gives obviously.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

jennigrey said:


> I think one of the big sticking points for me was the phrase "strong correction" in conjunction with using the bit on a horse in-hand. That phrase, used in that fashion, put me in mind of yanking on the bit to get the horse to stand whoa. And I object to that.


We all sometimes need strong correction. I think about my children. One of my children went into the street--- again and again and again. At first, I used regular correction. As time went on I had to use stronger correction. I ended up having to give a good smack on the hind end. I was not punishing him. It was an absolutely needed teaching experience. I had to use a harsher correction that I would have liked because he could have died if he didn't learn this lesson.

It seems to me that the OP is describing the same type of scenario.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

DaniR1968 said:


> Not being argumentative, really. What do you think was meant by giving a strong correction with the bit? I cannot see any way to give a correction using a bit other than yank or jerk. If the person had said hold the reins and let the horse correct itself when it jerks back or whatever, I could sort of see. I wouldn't do that in this situation but that's just me.
> 
> As for using the bit in training. I train my horses in halter and teach leg, seat, and rein aides. When I introduce the bit, the horse knows what I am asking with my seat and legs so the direct rein use is light. Of course both neck rein so direct contact with the bit is minimal. I usually don't use the bit to correct a horse; but when my gelding started flipping his head up and down to let me know he wanted to go faster, I put him in a ported bit. He corrected himself when he would flip his head.
> 
> If he needs correcting for some behavior, that's what the crop is for.


Different training methods work for different people but that doesn't mean somebody else's method is wrong.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

southerngurl said:


> Dani, if you make it so the horse NEVER feels a strong cue through the bit, then when something happens and the strong cue is used, like a spook or another dangerous situation, the horse may panic. They do need to experience that so they don't panic when it eventually does happen.
> 
> I never jerk the bit, but I let the horse pull on it some that's for sure. And release when he gives obviously.


I will, either on the ground or in the saddle, flex the horse's neck from side to side to teach them to give. I do want them to know it's there and respond to it. I don't give a strong cue just so they are used to it. I ride sensitive horses. I don't think I have ever had a horse panic if you suddenly hit them in the mouth with the bit.

I ride in large and small groups on the beach and in forests. My horses are among the safest to be around. That's not an accident. I'm not saying anyone else's way is wrong but my way of working and training my horses works for me. I am often complimented on how well behaved my horses are. The very first time I hauled my gelding to a ride, it was a group ride and was his first time away from home. He acted like he had been doing it his whole life. He is a Fox Trotter mix who is very forward. He took the lead except when crossing water. We never did that at home. Once another horse went, he went.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

Joshie said:


> We all sometimes need strong correction. I think about my children. One of my children went into the street--- again and again and again. At first, I used regular correction. As time went on I had to use stronger correction. I ended up having to give a good smack on the hind end. I was not punishing him. It was an absolutely needed teaching experience. I had to use a harsher correction that I would have liked because he could have died if he didn't learn this lesson.
> 
> It seems to me that the OP is describing the same type of scenario.


It's not the same type of scenario. Your child was being disobedient. Let's say a big scary dog came running into the front yard and your child ran into the street out of fear. Would you punish the child? No, you would comfort the child and perhaps introduce him to the dog so he could see the dog was nothing to be frightened of. 

A horse spooking at sudden loud sounds (not to mention the smell that comes with fireworks) is not being disobedient. You sooth him and introduce the frightening thing in a more controlled way.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

DaniR1968 said:


> It's not the same type of scenario. Your child was being disobedient. Let's say a big scary dog came running into the front yard and your child ran into the street out of fear. Would you punish the child? No, you would comfort the child and perhaps introduce him to the dog so he could see the dog was nothing to be frightened of.
> 
> A horse spooking at sudden loud sounds (not to mention the smell that comes with fireworks) is not being disobedient. You sooth him and introduce the frightening thing in a more controlled way.


Again, different training methods work for different people and what works for you in your situation just might not work for somebody else and I really think you're reading way more into a simple comment than was ever intended.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

I don't ever sooth a frightened animal. I sternly tell them to stop being so stupid. That I am not afraid and they should take their cue from me. Soothing tends to reinforce the unwanted behavior.

Personally, I would never use the bit for a correction. The bit is used for communication, not punishment.

Correction comes from my voice, a tap of the riding crop, a good hard smack with the riding crop (whatever is warranted), or circling. I don't ride with spurs, but spurs can be used for a correction is the horse's sin is severe.

Almost always, a sharp "eh!" from me will stop any animal of mine in their tracks. Not often any reason to be smacking them around.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Actually, I would be stern with a child that ran into the street because they were scared. That's too dangerous not to.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Whoa! is not punishment. Dani, you may have trained several, I have trained hundreds. 
The bit does not train to not fear, it trains the proper response to fear. If you like,, I will post the story of a different person who was killed or maimed by a horse that didn't know the proper response to fear every day for the next 100 days. In return you can write a letter to the family explaining that the lack off a good whoa had 
nothing to do with their loved ones tragedy. Deal?


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

DaniR1968 said:


> A horse spooking at sudden loud sounds (not to mention the smell that comes with fireworks) is not being disobedient. You sooth him and introduce the frightening thing in a more controlled way.


And what if you do not have that luxury? A gravel truck is barreling down a dirt road and you horse decides to bolt in front of it.

Ya suppose there is still time to sooth his little heart? No. This is the time that (hopefully) you have instilled the proper fear response. If not you, and your horse are dead.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

I've never used a bit. For starting youngsters, riding and driving, I've always used a hackamore. Haven't had any problems all these years.


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## lathermaker (May 7, 2010)

A good halter with a chain over the nose will get the horse's attention fast. All you have to do is bump it a few times to get it to pay attention to you, not the boogie man. "There, there nice horsie" when the thing is acting like a fool will get you killed.

I worked at a Saddlebred Training stable for several years. We threw those horses into all kinds of situations so that they would learn not to freak out at the littlest thing.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Rogo said:


> I've never used a bit. For starting youngsters, riding and driving, I've always used a hackamore. Haven't had any problems all these years.


In effect a bit and a hack do the same thing, they use leverage to put pressure on a sensitive area, same with the stud chain.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

tinknal said:


> It's not punishment. Do you use a bit when you ride? Do you use the bit to stop the horse? Is this punishment? Do you use the bit to turn the horse? Is this punishment?


Yes, eventually, my horses are ridden in a bit. No, I have never in my entire life, 6 decades of riding, used a bit to stop a horse. My brakes are in the seat of my pants. No, I have never used a bit to turn a riding horse. Steering is by weight shift and leg pressure. Horses are neck reining long before they ever have a bit in their mouth.

The bit is for communication and for cuing collection. Very partially for cuing speed and extension. It's used to read the mood of the horse. If you punish the horse with the bit, he will stop communicating with you for fear of getting jabbed in the mouth.

I have no advice about a horse who is scared of fireworks. No horse I've ever owned has cared in the least about fireworks, gunfire, or cars backfiring.

No, my horses were not spoiled pets and yes, they stopped dead still at the word "whoa" without being jabbed in the mouth. They would stand stock still when told "stand" and not move again until they had permission.

Yes, sometimes a horse needs to be punished. But usually, what a horse needs to be well trained is clear communication and strong leadership.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

DaniR1968 said:


> It's not the same type of scenario. Your child was being disobedient. Let's say a big scary dog came running into the front yard and your child ran into the street out of fear. Would you punish the child? No, you would comfort the child and perhaps introduce him to the dog so he could see the dog was nothing to be frightened of.
> 
> A horse spooking at sudden loud sounds (not to mention the smell that comes with fireworks) is not being disobedient. You sooth him and introduce the frightening thing in a more controlled way.


The child wasn't being disobedient. He just didn't get it. The child is strong willed and he wasn't being naughty, he just didn't get it. This didn't happen a million times over one day. He went into the street over time. Going into the street could have killed him. He remembered the pain of a spank on his backside far more than he remembered my verbal correction. 

The difference between punishment and correction is its purpose. One uses correction to teach a lesson. Punishment is used as the result of misbehavior. Punishment is often a quick reaction done in anger. I think that one should plan the method of correction in advance and correction shouldn't be done in anger. The main difference is the attitude of the giver and the getter.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Joshie said:


> The child wasn't being disobedient. He just didn't get it. The child is strong willed and he wasn't being naughty, he just didn't get it. This didn't happen a million times over one day. He went into the street over time. Going into the street could have killed him. He remembered the pain of a spank on his backside far more than he remembered my verbal correction.
> 
> The difference between punishment and correction is its purpose. One uses correction to teach a lesson. Punishment is used as the result of misbehavior. Punishment is often a quick reaction done in anger. I think that one should plan the method of correction in advance and correction shouldn't be done in anger. The main difference is the attitude of the giver and the getter.


The one and only time I remember getting spanked by my Mom was when I followed her across the street after she told me to stay put. I was about 4 yo.

I remember this correction to this day (though I _am_ allowed to cross the street now) !


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