# HT Spinning Class ~ Exercise 1



## PKBoo (Apr 10, 2008)

A few of us are going to do the Master Spinner program through Olds College. Many of you don't want the structure and rigorousness of the program, or to be tied down to a course, but we can all benefit from input - lots of experience here!

So if a few of us post an exercise that we are working on, you can choose to do that exercise along with us (or not). Then hop in on the next one (or not  )
And those of you with more experience, please chime in anytime! 

So to start - one of the exercises is the 'Care of your Wheel.' 
How well do you know your wheel? I admit it - I don't know mine at all :shocked: (except to sit at it and spin). And thanks to WIHH's reminders - oil frequently! 

I think I know the names of everything (going to get out the book and review them), but I've never, ever changed the ratio to try to spin something differently. I don't even know what the different ratios mean! :sob: So I'm going to start by getting intimate with my wheel :run: *hauling out the books to see what all of this means*


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Ooh, what a fun idea!

For me, it isnt that I dont like structure or that I cant handle the rigors.
Purely economical reasons why I am not taking any classes. 
Doesn't it cost several hundred dollars?
I also get the feeling that by taking them in person I would get more out of it.
They are a long way away from me here.

Ratios!!

They are written with two numbers separated by a colon, like 7:1.
Doesnt that mean that for every full rotation of the drive wheel the flyer will rotate 7 times?


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

LOL, PKBOO, What an EXCELLENT place to start. I need to know my wheel too! About the only thing I know about it is that I named it ALLOVERTWIST!  I guessing it's ok to start in Section B. I haven't read that section yet, but I guess I will now! :dance:

GAM, I'm guessing there is a reason they let you do the first two levels from home. From what I see, they're PRETTY BASIC, stuff you've proly already done!


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

I am always looking for more new stuff to try though. :teehee:

One of you mentioned spinning and knitting samples from 10 different breeds of sheep.
I thought that sounded like a perfectly awesome goal.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

I love this idea also! And really, really, really appreciate you gals sharing what you are going through. I'd sign up to take the first two levels at home if I could afford it.


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## PKBoo (Apr 10, 2008)

gone-a-milkin said:


> I am always looking for more new stuff to try though. :teehee:
> 
> One of you mentioned spinning and knitting samples from 10 different breeds of sheep.
> I thought that sounded like a perfectly awesome goal.


Woohoo that's next! Our Guild did a Fleece Study - they still have samples, so I'm going to get them at our Feb meeting. So the Fleece Study starts early March :rock:

So I sat down with Amy King's book 'Spin Control' (GREAT book!) and now realize that you have to adjust the Mother-of-all when you change the drive band to a different whorl. That was scary!!!! I've always been afraid to take that drive band off and move it anywhere!!

Is it normal that the Mother-of-all is tilting at a crazy angle when it's on the smallest whorl? :shrug:

Amy says to use waste yarn (NOT roving), and try each whorl starting with no tension, then increasing tension. You can figure out the ratio of each whorl by counting the number of times of the flyer spins as the drive wheel goes around one time. 

DH counted the flyer while I turned the wheel - the largest whorl ratio was 5.5:1; the medium was 9.5:1; and the smallest was 13:1. 

The whole point? Use the larger whorl to spin larger bulkier yarn, and the smaller whorl to spin thinner yarn. :smack Woohoo! I know a lot of you know this, but I've been so afraid to move that drive band! Tonight was freedom! Next step - actually spin using the small whorl!


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## PKBoo (Apr 10, 2008)

JDog1222 said:


> LOL, PKBOO, What an EXCELLENT place to start. I need to know my wheel too! About the only thing I know about it is that I named it ALLOVERTWIST!  I guessing it's ok to start in Section B. I haven't read that section yet, but I guess I will now! :dance:


JDog - I probably won't get my workbook for a few weeks, and looking through the requirement sheet, I thought it was an easy place to start. And I definitely need help with it! :help:

Off to try lace-spinning on that scary little whorl


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

I'm so in! This is an awesome idea! Thanks so much for sharing what y'all are doing.
As a very beginner spinner, I so appreciate this.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

PKBoo, for the Kiwi wheel they sent me a new bigger driveband to go with the smaller whorl. The MOA doesn't move on it. 
So I dont know about your ****** angle issue. :teehee:

I would think though, with your long stapled wools you should be able to spin fine yarn much faster with that set-up.

I was having trouble with the singles being underspun and breaking off. 
Just coming apart from lack of twist, unless I went very slow with my hands while treadling at record speed.
It was tedious.

The newest yarn I did that did not even happen ONCE. I was amazed and no fluffy underspun sections in the singles. NONE. Finally.
I was worried about the opposite thing happening, but the skein just barely turned when I took it off the swift. 
I feel so liberated! No more super slow painful spinning for me.
I know I am going to want to go even faster, eventually. 

What is the first lesson again? Care of the wheel?
I hate to get too far off topic right at the start. :angel:


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

Oh, OK, well section B of the WB is about wheels. I'll do that section now, so I can decipher what you're talking about in your last post. LOL :huh:

I'll also add that this WB is VERY SMALL, like 7pgs dedicated to this section.

We do most of our learning from external sources. So, I'll post what I find online for info. and everyone can read the same thing. I have NO books on this subject! :ashamed:

In this section we have to:
1- identify parts of the spinning wheel
2- explain how spinning wheels work
3- describe types and styles of spinning wheels.
4- describe proper posture and chair height
5- provide info on care and maintenance of your wheel.

The last two you send in papers on. They only have to be one to two paragraphs each.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

PKBoo said:


> .....................The whole point? Use the larger whorl to spin larger bulkier yarn, and the smaller whorl to spin thinner yarn. :smack Woohoo! I know a lot of you know this, but I've been so afraid to move that drive band! Tonight was freedom! Next step - actually spin using the small whorl!


Now that's what I needed to know. I read about ratios (By the way, that's a good way to see what MY ratios are. DH is a much better counter than I am).

I have 3 grooves on my bobbins....now I know - smaller whorl=smaller yarn. I wonder how long I will remember that...


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

If section B is about spinning wheels what is section A about? Curious minds want to know . There are several websites that would be helpful for you to learn about your wheels. Joyofhandspinning.com is one, and interesting article http://norsewoodsmith.com/content/spinning-wheel-de-constructing-original Then there are books Paula Simmons http://www.amazon.com/Spinning-Weaving-Wool-Paula-Simmons/dp/0914718231 and Alden Amos http://www.amazon.com/Alden-Amos-Big-Book-Handspinning/dp/1883010888. Don't forget about you libraries either. Most libraries have inter library loans. You can get books from all over the country tha way.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Well that is helpful! I wondered why I had two different sizes whorls, I knew they must do something, but had no idea why they were two different sizes!:nanner:


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## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

Thanks for the challenge! I'm following along too...
I just picked up Know your Wheel Dvd from the library yesterday- now I'm sooooo anxious to watch it! 
Personally, sometimes when I am anxious to spin a yarn with a fancy batt close by, I get in that "why bother, it takes too much time" mode for using the right whorl- not so good!
It is worth changing the flyer (Lendrum), changing the whorl, just taking that extra first step. 
Glad you started this...


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

Section A1, is History of Sheep, Wool, and Spinning, 2pgs.!
A2 is Characteristics and Quality of wool, 2pgs.
A3, Produce and Harvest Wool, 3pgs.
A4, Fineness Classification of Wool and Types of Wool, 4pgs.
A5, Wash, Dry, and Store Wool, 3pgs.
A6, Wool Preparation, 4pgs.

All List what we have to do in each of these sections when we get to that section. 

Thanks for the info MW! Now I'm a gonna read read read! :thumb:


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## PKBoo (Apr 10, 2008)

JDog - so sorry to jump the gun into Section B! (teacher not following directions - hmph! ) I was just so excited to get started, and not having the workbook yet (who knows when it will come!), thought I'd pick the easiest topic. Hmm - maybe not :nono:

Well, it did help me A LOT!!! I spun an old batt I found last night, using the smallest whorl (biggest ratio), and WOW - was it easy to spin thin!!!!! Unbelievable the difference!

I have a meeting tonight (leaving shortly boohoo - wanted to play with more fiber) - I'm hoping I'll have a chance tonight to comb some of the longwool I have, and try that. I can definitely see where fleece prep makes all the difference in the world when you're trying to spin lace weight! WOW!

Love the learning - that's what it's all about  Thanks for all the links and posts - I think I need to order those DVD's and try those out. Searched all over our county library site, and they don't have them.

JDog - maybe we better put you in charge of picking the assignments from here on out - I'll be all over the place! :bash:


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

This workbook you are referring to: is it available online?


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Tommyice I think you have to pay the $300++ to get that part.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

PKboo - what kind of wheel do you have? I think I am in for a 2nd wheel this year. Never thought I'd say that. But I'm saying it!


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Marchwind said:


> Tommyice I think you have to pay the $300++ to get that part.


A girl can hope, can't she?:awh:


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Yea I know  That's why its so great that these ladies are willing to share what they can with us.


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

:happy2: You guys CRACK ME UP! We can start anywhere you like, MW just wanted to know what section A had in it.  I think learning the wheel first is just as good! :thumb: I think GAM wants us to get to doing the 10yr skeins from all the diff. sheep breeds, though! :runforhills: WOW, there is a TON of them!!!!!!

Tommyice, YES you can get it online! It is a college continuing education class. BUT, like MW said, it does cost $400. :grumble:


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

I am sure I could stand to start at the beginning.
I know I missed some stuff. :teehee:

Not EVERY wheel even hass ALL the same parts. Some of them seem to have a lot of extra doohickeys and twiddly knobs. 
Those things have real names and I bet they are awesome.

The NAMES of all the parts of the wheel are so cool.
The mother of all, maidens, flyer, footman....
the orifice (that sounds a little...ahem) 
then there is the orifice HOOK 

Heck, I just love the word BOBBIN. 
:sing: Bobbin, bobbin, who's got the bobbin? :sing:

Sometimes I get into conversations on fb with my spinner friends and other folks interject
to make comments on what-the-heck language are we even SPEAKING?
It is easy to forget that most people find these terms to be very foreign.


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

:hysterical:ound::buds:ound::hysterical::rotfl:
OMG..........all of us in a REAL LIVE class together would be SUCH a HOOT!

GAM, you ALWAYS make my day! :thumb: ound:


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

LORD, that is SUPPOSED to be.....SUCH!!! SUCH a HOOT!


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## lazysheep (Dec 2, 2011)

I have a Schacht wheel with lots of options for drive adjustments. I originally had it set up double-drive, but went back to single drive as it seemed to behave better. I'm using two loops of cotton string tied in a smooth knot for my driver. A wheel-wright set up my other wheel this way and that is what I have used on this wheel. I would like to mess with the adjustments on different whorls, but it takes a lot of cranking to take up the slack on the smaller whorl, leaving my bobbin-flyer assembly crooked. Should I cut and custom measure new cotton string for each whorl change? Are the "plastic" drive bands more adjustable/flexible? I looked to see if I could attach a picture, but my posting rules say "no attachments". Is a picture an attachment?


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

lazysheep, to post a picture here you need to use an external photohosting site like photobucket or flickr.
Then copy the IMG code link from there over here. Nobody can post 'attachments", It is not just you.


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

For section B, we have to turn in two papers. Both are only one to two paragraphs long. One is on the proper posture and chair height you should use while spinning. The other is on the care and maintenance of your wheel.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Here is an oldie image that I love.
I have actually heard the elderly folks here in the Ozarks call wheels 'jennys'.
I thought it was quaint and then I found this. It is a real name or was at one time.


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## PKBoo (Apr 10, 2008)

Callieslamb said:


> PKboo - what kind of wheel do you have? I think I am in for a 2nd wheel this year. Never thought I'd say that. But I'm saying it!


Callie - I have an Ashford Traveler, and LOVE it! I tried a bunch of different ones, and I wanted one that would be flexible, and grow with me. 

It's got Scotch tension, but it has the ability to change to double drive, or is it a single drive? (have not done that yet, whichever one it is!) And why would I want to do that? (can anyone help with that?) What's the difference between single drive and double drive? 

I also have a HitchHiker that I picked up cheap on Ravelry last year. I travel for my job, and it fits in a little tote bag, so I can take it with me. It's a direct drive, so it's MUCH different - I usually only ply on it. And I actually like plying on it better than on the Traveler. 

There's so much more to a wheel than the names (love those names too GAM!)


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

I do appreciate the 'horsey' references too.
Spinning is a bit like riding, you have the reins in your hand and your feet in the stirrups. 
You can walk, trot, lope, or gallop. Sometimes you can even get bucked off. :teehee:
Each wheel has its own quirks too.

I have heard ladies mention having a 'stableful' of wheels.


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## lazysheep (Dec 2, 2011)

thanks gone-a-milkin. I don't use flicker or photobucket. I use Adobe Photoshop or Print shop for my pics. Can I use these here for pic management?


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

No, you have to start an account with an online site. 
The ones I posted are both free.


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## PKBoo (Apr 10, 2008)

lazysheep said:


> I'm using two loops of cotton string tied in a smooth knot for my driver.


How do you get a smooth knot??? 



lazysheep said:


> Should I cut and custom measure new cotton string for each whorl change? Are the "plastic" drive bands more adjustable/flexible?


I THINK that you can adjust the mother-of-all to tighten the drive band, so that you don't have that many strings... that's my understanding anyway :shrug:


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## Falls-Acre (May 13, 2009)

Funnily enough, I don't even have my wheel yet and I already have made a careful study of the various parts of a wheel! What's really funny is that I find myself having to explain the terms when I use them to other non-spinning folk that are trying to help me find "the one."


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

PKBoo said:


> It's got Scotch tension, but it has the ability to change to double drive, or is it a single drive? (have not done that yet, whichever one it is!) And why would I want to do that? (can anyone help with that?) What's the difference between single drive and double drive?


A single drive simply means there is one drive band. The drive band goes around the drive wheel and then goes around 

1) the flyer whorl. This is Scotch tension, aka flyer driven.
2) the bobbin. This is Irish tension, aka bobbin driven.

The yarn take up is controlled by the brake band. On a Scotch tension, the brake band is on the bobbin. On an Irish tension, the brake band is on the whorl.

A double drive also has a single drive band BUT it goes around the drive wheel, around the bobbin, back around the drive wheel and then back around the whorl.

The yarn take up is controlled by moving the mother-of-all.

Once you start spinning a yarn using, lets say, Scotch tension, you cannot switch in mid bobbin to using the double drive and vice-versa. The yarn winds on the bobbin in opposite directions.

PK, you can actually use your Traveller with the Irish tension too!

When I started with the Traveller, I used the double drive. It was easier for me to adjust the take up that way. I've heard you can 'fine tune' the take up better with the double drive. I also tried both the Scotch & Irish tensions. I could not get the knack of adjusting the tension with either of those. The Scotch either didn't take up or grabbed the fiber from my hand. I always felt I was fighting with the wheel using the Irish tension.

When I got my Sonata, I had to learn spinning with the Scotch tension. Thankfully, I was able to use the Scotch tension with no problem.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Wasn't one of the wheels Pitchy made called a Spinning Jenny? I think that trm refers to the spindle type of wheel rather than the bobbin the. But I'm not sure about that.

Lazysheep, when you are ready to post a picture, if your use Flickr (I dont know about the other sites) but you will need to click on the little photo icon above where you type a message (looks like a mountain and a sun) then when the little window pops up delete the "http:/" that is there highlited in blue. then paste the bbc code in there.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Love that old picture of the wheel!
On my flicker account, all I have to do to post, after uploading the photos, is right click the photo itself, then right click on copy, and paste it into the message space where I'm typing. I don't have to hit the message (looks like a mountain) button at all.:hrm:
Are we supposed to be writing papers? I have no idea of the "proper" chair hieght and posture for spinnng. I've just been sitting comfie!


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

I forgot to mention about the drive band thing. I use those stretchy bands. I like them but it doesn't keep you from having to adjust your wheel when you change whorls. But here's a tip on how to adjust a drive band to fit your wheel. When you make a drive band for your wheel use the middle whorl to make the right size band. Cut it to that length. Lazysheep, you will have to adjust your MOA (mother of all) to get the drive band to fit properly and every time you change the whorl. Having two drive bands seems silly and alike a lot more work to change than just adjusting the MOA. I'm sure some of the links posted above would have info on how to adjust a drive band.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I think I'm just going to have to take a class someday. A wheel is like this........but can be changed to that......and this can be added........and this can be that......it all makes my head spin more than my wheel. I think I'll just worry about my wheel and what it does/doesn't for now. I get too confused in trying to figure it all out by myself. I think I'm a visual-kenetic learner. I gotta see it and feel it. 

I have a double drive, scotch tension wheel. I use a cotton string right now, but I am not totally pleased with it. I'd like to find something else that would work and not stretch out mid-project. (and I loosely call what I do a 'project').


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

:hystericalid you all miss GAM getting bucked off her wheel? ound:Ride'um COWGIRL! Yee Haw :cowboy: Thanks for the laugh this morning, GF! 

No one HAS to write the papers, it's just what we have to do for the actual college class. I will say though, it DOES help you remember things better. 

I have a Kromski Sonata, now I'm wondering if I can adjust the mother-of-all on it. I NEVER have! NO WONDER why the drive band is too big for me to use my smallest whorl. LOL, I must be needing to learn some adjusting! :ashamed:


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

A good exercise for today is for everyone to figure their drive ratios of their wheel. :happy2: Then report it here. 

To do this, either: measure the diameter of the drive wheel and divide it by the diameter of the whorl, or, turn the drive wheel one complete turn (by hand) and count the number of revolutions the flyer makes. It's THAT easy, I think, I haven't tried it yet. :icecream:

The diameter is the TOTAL length across the center of your wheel or whorl.  

You CAN do this! I'll be back with my ratios, here in a few. :thumb:


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

I have 14:1, 12:1, and 6.5:1, ratios! :bouncy:Yea, I did it, I did it, I did it! :runforhills:Now what do I do with it? ound:

I always thought I got a bum drive band when I ordered my wheel (it was too loose), and actually just ordered a new one when I ordered a drive belt for my drum carder. I guess I just thought the knob on the side of the wheel was just to keep the whole top assembly from turning left and right, and to hold it on. It never dawned on me that I could raise the the whole thing to tighten the drive band! :teehee: LOL, I feel SO STUPID, I even ordered and NEW one! Oh, well, guess it's always nice to have an EXTRA! :ashamed: :thumb:


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

:Two whorls with four sizes to each whorl."  HELLO, does mine have that?

I measured the whorls on my flyer, but, I see that the bobbins have the same thing on them. I just thought this was for the scotch tension or use on a lazy kate. Then I see Cyndi saying something about the drive bands can go on either the bobbin or the whorl! ? :hammer: That must be like level THREE or FOUR stuff right there! eep:


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

Ok, I get it now, I read the WHOLE section.
I have a wheel with scotch tension, which means the brake, applied to the whorl in the bobbin, causes the yarn to be pulled onto the bobbin. 

WOW, what things I'll be able to do, now that I have control over my wheel, instead of it controlling ME! :duel:


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I have 6, 7 and 7.5. That doesn't make sense to me. They are really close together, almost like no difference. why bother making all those cuts in the wood if it isn't going to make that much difference in the end product? Or is there a huge difference in 6 and 7?

If I had DH make a different whirl, would that make different ratios? So if I wanted 12:1 - he'd need to make the diameter smaller? If 3:1, larger? Are there other things that come into play than just whirl size? Like treadling being too hard to keep up?


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

You goof Jillian! Thanks for the chuckle!


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

Oh my gosh, o my gosh........I'm rolling on the floor! :hysterical:

Callie, I think I did the same thing you did when I tried to count mine! Did you change the drive band to the different whorls when you counted? :teehee:


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Callieslamb - what kind of wheel do you have again?

As for all the talk about whorls and ratios - first let me say that *yes this is important*.
Now let me say that it is not necessarily important in the way that you think.

Your spinning will be *easiest *if you use the right ratio for the job - don't try to spin bulky Lopi on a 15:1 ratio, and don't try to spin laceweight on a 3:1 ratio. HOWEVER treadling speed and drafting speed are a huge part of the whole experience as well. I'm sure the lessons will have you play with this, but just for those who don't have a lot of ratio variations or whatever, don't fret. Antique wheels usually have only one (sometimes 2) whorl sizes - and they were used to create all the yarn the household needed. That said, they weren't trying to do lace one day and lopi the next on the same wheel. 

Now you know why I need multiple wheels (I use almost all antique wheels, cept for my Babe). Different wheels for different jobs 

Also on the drive band conversation - NEVER try to use a stretchy drive band on double drive. It won't work - slippage is essential to DD working properly. Also don't be scared by the long drive band in DD - you get really good at taking it on and off after awhile, and it's no big deal. You need to be able to take your band right off and put it back on - the dog will whack it off with his tail, it'll fall off when you move the wheel, it's inevitable. So do get good at it. 

And to remember the difference between Scotch Tension and Irish Tension, I humbly offer the following limericks:

There once was a spinner from Cork 
Whose bobbin whirled round with great torque 
Add a brake to the flyer 
Spin yarn for the dyer 
And knit for her young man from York!

There once was a spinner from Glasgow 
Whose flyer spun fast as a shadow 
With a brake on the bobbin 
She waved to the Scotsman 
And spun as she sat on the barrow!


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

JDog, keep in ind that you do not want your drive band tight on the Kromski. You want the drive band just tight enough that the wheel will spin, or maybe just a tad tighter.


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## PKBoo (Apr 10, 2008)

Callieslamb said:


> I think I'm just going to have to take a class someday. A wheel is like this........but can be changed to that......and this can be added........and this can be that......it all makes my head spin more than my wheel.


Me too Callie! There's an intermediate spinning class in March that I think I'm going to take. So I can SEE the things we are talking about here, and see if I'm doing them right. 

Don't be afraid to try thing though - WIHH was right - when I moved that drive band, it WAS liberating! And it made a huge difference when I tried to spin the thinner stuff. Key word - TRIED haha! :grump: The smallest I got was 25 wpi (wraps/inch), so I've got a ways to go to get to lace (35 wpi). Going to try some longwool tonight :bouncy:

WIHH - thank for the name of the DVD. I put it in my 'cart' at Amazon. I'll see if I can get it used, or see if my Guild has it to lend out. That sounds like a great resource to have

Cyndi - thanks so much for that explanation of single and double drives. I'll have to try to change things around this weekend when I've got some time. 

GAM - thanks for that picture of the parts of the wheel. Love those old drawings 

LOVE seeing the pictures too - it would be fun to see everyone's wheel (hint-hint) :gaptooth: :icecream:


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Late 1700's Irish Style Saxony wheel:










2002 Traveller (with Jumbo flyer/bobbin):










Late 1800's Great Wheel (with my old Ashford Traditional in background):










Sonata (when I bought it 4 years ago). It now has a WooLee Winder on it and I've removed the bobbin holder.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

JDog1222 said:


> Oh my gosh, o my gosh........I'm rolling on the floor! :hysterical:
> 
> Callie, I think I did the same thing you did when I tried to count mine! Did you change the drive band to the different whorls when you counted? :teehee:


Yep....And I moved the wheel very, very slowly. I could have DH count....


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

frazzlehead said:


> Callieslamb - what kind of wheel do you have again?.........


It's called a Wendy. From a designer in NZ. Teko...something. It's older. 



















I believe it's double drive, scotch tension. But I don't see how the tension is on the bobbin. It moves the MOF up or down.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

PKBoo said:


> Me too Callie! There's an intermediate spinning class in March that I think I'm going to take. So I can SEE the things we are talking about here, and see if I'm doing them right.
> 
> Don't be afraid to try thing though - WIHH was right - when I moved that drive band, it WAS liberating! And it made a huge difference when I tried to spin the thinner stuff. Key word - TRIED haha! :grump: The smallest I got was 25 wpi (wraps/inch), so I've got a ways to go to get to lace (35 wpi). Going to try some longwool tonight :bouncy:....................


I see them and think I'm going to sign up...but then....it's either on a Sunday, or $200 per hour, or the same day as I have other commitments. The best thing for me would be to sign up for a private lesson at the Spinner's Loft in MI. It's just over 2 hours away. I could do that in a day. I really want to do thinner yard. What I am producing, I have to produce a TON of it to make anything! LOL. The last yarn I was spinning was working really well. Marchie came over for a day and showed me soooo much. I'm not afraid to try. I try out the different whirls tension to see what it can do. It's being consistant that a challenge for me. I'll get it.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Callie I believe you have a double drive but not Scotch tension. I'm not sure you can have both, but I don't really know.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Me either! LOL!!! I have a knob that I screw in or out. I have to figure out each and every time which is loose and which is tight. The screw moves the metal frame up and down.


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## sheepish (Dec 9, 2006)

Have a close look at the orifice (labeled spindle) in the drawing of the wheel. It is on the opposite side of the maiden from where the flyer (labelled hackles) is attached. The wheel wouldn't turn, let alone spin. I had a good laugh wondering "Who drew this thing?"

I have never seen an orifice named a spindle, unless it is an antiquated term. The wheel doesn't have a spindle. Some wheels do, they are those pointy things like horizontal drop spindles.

The thing with hooks that goes around the spindle is a flyer. Hackles are fibre prep combs this isn't a new term. I have seen a will from 1733 that passed on both a spinning wheel and hackles.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Here I am! Long day yesterday.
Y'all know I have the Babe Fiber Starter, it came with three bobbins at a 6:1 and three at 5:1. It has Irish tension, and I don't think I can change the drive band to get anything exciting to happen, pretty basic, but perfect for me right now. As I'm pretty basic! LOL!
Once I get things mastered on this, I'm lusting after the Ashford Traditional. We shall see.....


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Callie, Up would be tight, down would be loose I should think. Doesn't it raise and lower the drive band?


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

OK I'm determined to get my wheel working and learn to use it. Following along with you all might just be the motivation I need. I need to get a drive band for my wheel--it is a double drive. I see some of you have mentioned your drive band is cotton crochet thread. Can I just take some of that and create a band from it? How smooth does the knot have to be? What kind of knot did you use?

My wheel is not a "known" brand. Found at the garage sale of an actual spinner. 
My dusty wheel..... (it's been dusted and oiled since the photos were taken)

















Do you think I can/should replace the cord footman with one made from wood?


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

I wish you were closer too. I have a feeling I'm gonna need a spinning godmother.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Callieslamb, I've seen a Wendy in person. Cool wheels!

It's a double drive wheel - period. You adjust tension by raising and lowering the flyer assembly as a whole. 

With DD wheel, you do not have a brake - the difference in size of the whorls on bobbin and flyer is what gives you takeup. The larger the difference between the two and the stronger the tension, the greater the takeup. Move the flyer up (away from the drive wheel) for more tension, down (closer to the drive wheel) for less.

Ratio calculations are different with DD wheels as well - you can get an approximate ratio but not a detailed one.

Your wheel probably has only one or two ratios - but it is nowhere near as big a deal on a DD as it is on Scotch or Irish tension as there's all this fascinating physics that comes into play with the difference in rate of spin between the flyer arms and the bobbin due to drive band plus drag plus slippage...

From here:

_The ratio is determined by the diameter of the drive wheel in relationship to the size of the whorl(s) on the bobbin, the flyer, or both. On a bobbin lead wheel (i.e. Louet S-10) the bobbin whorl diameter determines ratio. On a flyer lead wheel with Scotch tension (i.e. Jensen wheels), the flyer whorl diameter determines ratio. On double drive wheels, both the bobbin and flyer whorl determine the ratio._

_You can easily figure your ratio(s) quite closely by marking one flyer arm, on drive wheel spoke and turning the wheel so both marks are at the 12:00 o'clock position. Then turn the drive wheel while counting the number of times the flyer turns while you give the drive wheel one turn. This method is quite accurate for single drive bobbin or flyer lead wheels but is not as accurate for double drive or accelerating wheels. For really accurate ratio calculations, a bit of math is needed. For those who want to do the math, the information on how to calculate ratios is here:_


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

TommyIce, if that cord footman gives you trouble, try replacing it with wire - a bent coathanger works well. Just need a hook bent into the top to go over the wheel axle rod, and one at the bottom that you can tie to the treadle bar with a piece of leather shoelace or strong string.

A piece of heavy leather that doesn't want to bend too much is a good footman as well - like a really cheap leather belt that doesn't want to flex much or boiled leather if you've ever done re-enactment stuff and made your own armour.  Cut a hole in the top to pop over the axle, one in the bottom to tie to the treadle and off you go. 

Sometimes the give of the cord is nice, sometimes it makes things go wobbly.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Marchwind said:


> Callie, Up would be tight, down would be loose I should think. Doesn't it raise and lower the drive band?


Yes, but it's which way to turn the knob to get it to go up or down that is the question. After a couple of turns, it becomes apparent...usually in the wrong direction. LOL!!!


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

thanks Frazzlehead....that's quite a lot of thinking! I'll see what DH and I can do this evening. He's good at measuring.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

On your wheel, you will have only 2 ratios. You'll measure once with the drive band on the bobbin and the nearest groove on the flyer whorl, once with it on the bobbin and on the farthest flyer whorl. That's it. They aren't very different in depth so you probably won't notice much difference at all. Your initial measurements could very well be correct.

When I measure on my big wheel, I line up one of the wheel spokes with an upright and hold onto it, then twist the flyer so the arms stand straight up and down. Slowly turn the wheel with my hand until I come round again to where I started, staring ONLY at the flyer while I do so and counting as that upper arm comes around again (if you tie some yarn around it it's easier to see which one to count). Six or seven is probably about right for that little wheel.


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

frazzlehead said:


> TommyIce, if that cord footman gives you trouble, try replacing it with wire - a bent coathanger works well. Just need a hook bent into the top to go over the wheel axle rod, and one at the bottom that you can tie to the treadle bar with a piece of leather shoelace or strong string.
> 
> A piece of heavy leather that doesn't want to bend too much is a good footman as well - like a really cheap leather belt that doesn't want to flex much or boiled leather if you've ever done re-enactment stuff and made your own armour.  Cut a hole in the top to pop over the axle, one in the bottom to tie to the treadle and off you go.
> 
> Sometimes the give of the cord is nice, sometimes it makes things go wobbly.


Thanks Frazzlehead! I'll be hitting Joann's this weekend for the crochet cotton and looking at ordering roving from some of the online sources you all have recommended.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Tommyice said:


> OK I'm determined to get my wheel working and learn to use it. Following along with you all might just be the motivation I need. I need to get a drive band for my wheel--it is a double drive. I see some of you have mentioned your drive band is cotton crochet thread. Can I just take some of that and create a band from it? How smooth does the knot have to be? What kind of knot did you use?
> 
> My wheel is not a "known" brand. Found at the garage sale of an actual spinner.
> My dusty wheel..... (it's been dusted and oiled since the photos were taken)
> ...


I'm jealous, that is a nice wheel!!


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Fowler, I agree! It's beautiful!


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Uh oh ... TommyIce, I should've looked more closely at the pictures. 

I have this sinking feeling you've got what we call a "spinning wheel shaped object". I hope I'm wrong! Here's how to find out.

First - take the flyer (the U shaped thing with hooks) out and try to take it apart. It should come apart into the U shaped thing, with a rod running through the middle; then a bobbin (the thing with the mushroom head), then a whorl (which will either pull off or twist off, probably the 'wrong way' - lefty tigthy righty loosey). What I think you will find is that the bobbin and whorl are actually all one piece - and you may not be able to take the whole thing apart. That would be the sign of a fake flyer, and you can't spin on it.

Second - see if you can adjust the tension. If you turn that knob on the front, does the mother of all (the thing holding the flyer) move back and forth? If that nice dish shaped base is fixed firmly to the table, then you definitely have a SWSO.

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but it would be far more disheartening for you to try to spin on a wheel that isn't built to actually work (just to look pretty) ... you'd not be the first spinner to be hornswoggled by these things. They were pretty popular in the 70s and there are a ton of them floating around out there. I think I've seen this one before - I'm sorry I didn't notice sooner.

Can you try these things and see? Please tell me I'm wrong - post pictures of your flyer taken apart, if you can, too that'd be a big help (either to show us what you have and get input, or, if it is a SWSO to show others what to look out for).

Fingers crossed that I am wrong!


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Oh I hope you're wrong Frazzle


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

Oh no!! I certainly hope your wrong!


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

frazzlehead said:


> Uh oh ... TommyIce, I should've looked more closely at the pictures.
> 
> I have this sinking feeling you've got what we call a "spinning wheel shaped object". I hope I'm wrong! Here's how to find out.
> 
> ...


Uncross your fingers. I took it completely apart to clean it. It was all very tight though. And dirty--very dirty. The knob on the front moves the MOA back and forth (much better now that I oiled that big screw in the recess underneath it all). I know the woman it came from--she spun on it. My dad actually bought for my Mom. She used it as decoration--she had no interest in spinning, just liked the looks of them. 

Unfortunately that is the only bobbin. But I do have a friend who does woodworking and if he's up to it (has been ill), he said he'd make me some more. If not, dad does have a lathe and used to make similar stuff all the time when he was in the Navy so he promised to make some for me too.

If I have time over the weekend I'll try to take some "apart" pics for you.

Thanks for you all for all the help and encouragement!


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## PKBoo (Apr 10, 2008)

So glad to hear it's a functional wheel TommyIce! Phew!! It's a beautiful wheel too. 

Callie - your wheel is beautiful too! I like how the bobbins are stored on the side like that. 

I finally made some almost, very close, almost-there lace weight yarn last night using the smallest whorl! :nanner: Except that it is so overspun - I have it hanging with weights on it now. And it broke 4 times, so there's 4 knots in it  But I'm close, and with practice, I can do it!

Thanks for all the pictures - they're great! Here's my little spinning corner from a previous picture. We are painting now, so there's STUFF everwhere in the living room :hair


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Okay bigger pictures please, my eyes are getting too old and my glasses aren't that good. LOL!


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

LOL Marchie!!

Frazzle the first thing I look to is the orifice. Most SWSO won't have the orifice on the flyer. I did have to take a 2nd look @ TommyIce's pics and was concerned that the bobbin whorl was one piece with the other whorls.

Woosh!

For the footman, besides a clothes hanger, I've also used a long paint stirrer-erererer.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

MullersLaneFarm said:


> For the footman, besides a clothes hanger, I've also used a long paint stirrer-erererer.


Along those lines: I have seen where people used a wooden measuring stick.
Just hold it up and measure how long it needs to be, then cut it right there.
Usually you only have to drill one more hole in it.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

WHEW! I am SO glad to be wrong on this one, TommyIce! Yay! 

Great ideas for footman construction here, too. What a team!


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

I love that everyone is so concerned for my wheel. :grouphug: Maybe we should give her a name. Any suggestions? I'll need to give her another thorough cleaning (it's been almost a year). I had put the whorl back on the bobbin, but I didn't wax it so that it would be easy. Should I? Or should it go on tight to aid in the bobbin spinning?

Yet another question. Would I be able to get another flyer assembly for this one if it fits between the maidens?

Dad actually purchased two wheels from this woman. The other is blondwood and if I recall correctly might be an Ashford Elizabeth. That one Mom put in the cabin upstate. I remember there is some damage to that one--missing footman, possible that the MOA is cracked and missing parts, and the treadle is broken. He usually opens the cabin in April. If I'm able to go up with him, I just might bring it home and see what we can do with it.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Your wheel will tell you what her name is.

Getting parts for an unknown wheel will be tricky. If you have someone who is expert with wood working maybe they can make you one. Is there something wrong with the flyer assembly? Maybe just a new whorl or two of different sizes. Does the whorl detach from the flyer, does it screw off? On my Country Craftsman the whorl screws onto the shaft that holds the bobbin. That might not be so difficult to have one made.

If the other wheel is an Ashford (whatever) you can easily get parts for that. You might want to swap them out if that would be allowed.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Your wheel will tell you what her name is.

Getting parts for an unknown wheel will be tricky. If you have someone who is expert with wood working maybe they can make you one. Is there something wrong with the flyer assembly? Maybe just a new whorl or two of different sizes. Does the whorl detach from the flyer, does it screw off? On my Country Craftsman the whorl screws onto the shaft that holds the bobbin. That might not be so difficult to have one made.

If the other wheel is an Ashford (whatever) you can easily get parts for that. You might want to swap them out if that would be allowed.


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

How about today, now that we all know what ratios are, we try to spin something with each one? 

I have never used my smallest whorl, because dummy me thought I had a drive band that was too large. The band never made the flyer go round.:smack
Today I'm gonna try raising the flyer assembly, so my drive band will shrink to fit my smallest whorl!  :happy:

I'm SO glad level one starts at this BASIC of a level! :spinsmiley:


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

OK Marchwind I think I'm seeing double lol. Both wheels are mine--after mom passed, dad gave me possession of all of her belongings. I've left the blond wheel upstate because it had the damage, but I think I'll make a serious effort to bring her home to New Jersey too.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

TommyIce, your wheel will indeed tell you her name in time. As for a new flyer, what's the measurement between the leathers? I have a few ideas - I've done this hunt a few times for antiques of unknown origin, if you measure that space and the length of your existing flyer tip to tip I'll see what might work. 

JDog, I hope you don't mind that I'm so amused by your certainty that your drive band was hooped. That's really very funny! It never would've occurred to me that someone might not realize you *could* adjust the tension - so thank you for sharing that because now I know to mention that when talking to new spinners! That's like the day I was teaching computers to a bunch of guys who'd never touched one (this was about 17 years ago when we didn't all have smart phones and iPads) ... "take your mouse and click on this icon', I said. So one guy picked up the mouse, kinda stared at it weird, then tried to push it against the monitor screen. How the heck was he supposed to click on anything with this big fat object? He'd used touch screen interfaces on the equipment at work and just assumed this must be the same. Fair enough! After that I made sure to explain that you first wiggle the mouse side to side and notice that the arrow moves on the screen!

Spinning the same yarn on all of your whorls (or all of your wheels :ahem is a great way to see how they differ. If you have multiple drafting styles as well (short forward draw, short backward draw, long draw, whatever) I would suggest trying a combo of each fiber each whorl/wheel, each drafting style one right after the other so you can get the sense of how they are different and how they are the same.


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

THANK YOU SOOOOO much ALL OF YOU, for taking the time to help us understand what we are trying to say. You ADVANCED spinners SURE are helping ME out a TON at least. :grouphug:

LOL YES....if you have more than ONE wheel, try doing this on ALL of the wheels. NOW I'm kinda wishing I had a ROOM full of wheels to play Goldilocks with.


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## hercsmama (Jan 15, 2004)

I'm taking notes as my wheel doesn't have all the fancy bits and bobs yalls do. But last night I caught the Hubinator looking at wheels online! He had asked me a day or two ago if I could have any one I wanted, which would it be. I told him if money were no object, a Kromski Polonaise. Guess what he was looking at!
My birthday is in June..........we shall see.


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

Frazzlehead, Don't you just LOVE those moments? :happy2:


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## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

hercsmama said:


> I'm taking notes as my wheel doesn't have all the fancy bits and bobs yalls do. But last night I caught the Hubinator looking at wheels online! He had asked me a day or two ago if I could have any one I wanted, which would it be. I told him if money were no object, a Kromski Polonaise. Guess what he was looking at!
> My birthday is in June..........we shall see.


What a guy!!!!!! Isn't it great to have a supportive hubby for our fiber addictions? 

LOVE + this thread- can I favorite it? LOADS of great info here.....

what a cute wheel, Callie!


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

If only I could use her.........banished back to my chair after a few days of freedom. My foot isn't going to heal any more until I stay off of it. I do have 1/3 of a simple lace scarf knitted. I knit for an hour every day. I have a box of fleece - beautiful, silky, soft, nummy unwashed fleece that I can smell! (I haven't be able to smell for a long time....) I'm headed for sunus surgery in a couple of weeks. I'd planned on a winter of spinning. It's been a winter of Drs instead. Oh well. There's now the plan of spinning on the deck in the spring sunshine. 

The first lesson about my wheel has been great for me. I also just bought 2 more spinning/dying/felting books to get cosy in my chair with.

At least, I will be capable of washing the new fleeces.


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## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

frazzlehead said:


> Callieslamb - what kind of wheel do you have again?
> 
> As for all the talk about whorls and ratios - first let me say that *yes this is important*.
> Now let me say that it is not necessarily important in the way that you think.
> ...


Frazzle, 

here is another question- how do you spin lopi? I believe it is low twist singles, but it there a trick? Is it normally a worsted weight? Having Icelandics here, would like to make some traditional lopi, or a close as possible. Would you use say a louet with a strong wool pull and work up close to the orafice? 

I have been spinning for a couple years on one setting on 2 different wheels each- not moving the moa because the yarn slipped off, and not changing the driveband- but totally changing the yarn by the treadle speed- am so glad you touched on that in this thread. Changing the drive band today, so now on to new things....


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Yeah, Lopi is a bit tricky - you want just enough twist for it to hold but no more. The very best way is on an Indian Head Spinner or the like, great big flyers great big bobbins very slow twist. It's hard to treadle slow enough to make lopi on a lot of wheels!

You should never need to work close to the orifice - always leave yourself as much wool as you can between you and the flyer so you can see what you are making and have lots of room to draft. What you'd want is the slowest treadle, lowest ratio ... and then just a reasonable takeup - the yarn should not be under much tension as it feeds in because it is very lightly twisted. The trick is to draft FAST and treadle SLOW. You wanna feed it lots of yarn and not let the yarn hang around to pick up twist so you have to draft quick-more-more-more-more feed the beast! 

I actually can make lopi on a drop spindle easier than on my wheel (I haven't got my Indian Head fully set up yet), cause I can get the twist going more slowly. Might be something to experiment with.

ETA if you want to see what you are trying to create, order a skein or two from Custom Woolen Mills. Their lopi is very nice - it's what I made my sister's Sylvi out of (see my projects on Rav, I'm Frazzlehaed there too).


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## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

That is great info! I will order a skein for example...
One more lopi question (well, two) , are the tog and thel combed together after scouring, or can this be done in the grease from the lock? 
Soooo glad you said it can be done on Indian Head, haven't put mine to work yet- this will be the ideal project. 
Off to check out your project! - rats! no pic yet.... will be watching....


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## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

It says here in the WB that if your belt keeps slipping, despite adjusting it, you can put beeswax or resin on it to give it some grip.


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## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

With lopi usually tog and thel together, I think ... though the heaviest tog is pulled out. Kind of depends on the fleece, some have really wiry tog some it's just a bit heavier. 

It can be done in the grease, esp as Icelandic has so little lanolin. I'd try combing in the grease and see how it works - if there's a lot of scurf, washing first is a good idea. No need to scour the daylights out of it, but it's nicer to work with if it's had at least a hot rinse, IMHO.

The Sylvi has a bunch of pictures ... here's a link.


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## PKBoo (Apr 10, 2008)

JDog1222 said:


> How about today, now that we all know what ratios are, we try to spin something with each one?
> 
> I'm SO glad level one starts at this BASIC of a level! :spinsmiley:


Great idea JDog! I spun some (almost) laceweight using the smallest whorl (highest ratio), and really struggled with it. Then I tried it using the middle whorl, and had much better luck! I need to ply it yet, so pictures tomorrow. 

This is the basic level, but wow I am learning a LOT!


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## InHisName (Jan 26, 2006)

Frazzlehead, I had seen that fabulous sweater- didn't read the yarn type, I guess I did not realize that Icelandic could be so nice!


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## PKBoo (Apr 10, 2008)

Marchie - here are bigger pics for you 

Here's my spinning corner: 










and the front of it. Do you see how much the MOA is tilted? Is that normal? And that's on the middle whorl...










And my little Hitchhiker. It's not a pretty thing, but it fits in that little tote bag, and I can take it everywhere :hobbyhors











Callie - spinning in the spring sunshine sounds wonderful!!


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

PKBoo, what kind of wheel is that, the first one? Thank you for the larger photo . How dose that Hitchhiker spin? Do you have much in the way of variation in ratios?


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

That is a Scotch tension Traveller. Needs a new drive band!


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