# Banding vs Burdizzo?



## apirlawz (Dec 26, 2003)

Hi all,

Well, I haven't "got my goat" yet, which means I've been trying to do all the reading I can until that fateful day! :haha: 

One of the things that I've come across a few times is how do deal with the vast majority of buck kids that will not be kept intact for breeding. I always thought that banding would be the way to go (no blood, smashing of tender boy parts, etc.), but the more I look into it, the more I see that it's become somewhat unpopular by many folks raising goats for being inhumane, and possibly inviting infection. Now, it seems that "those in the know" suggest a burdizzo, or emasculator to crush the cords and blood supply to the testes. Granted, it's certainly not painless, but the argument is that the kid recovers much more quickly, and no body parts drop off, inviting tetanus and other nasty infections. 

What do you think about this? Do you band, or emasculate? How do your kids seem to handle the procedure? What complications have you seen?

Lastly, I'd like to thank you all for enabling another future addict.  

April


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## trickham (Nov 28, 2004)

Actually, I go for option #3, cutting. It is more humane actually than banding, for the reasons that you mentioned. I considered using a emasculatome, but I understand that there is a risk there too. I think the idea is to crush the spermatic cord, but not the blood vessels. If you crush the blood vessels, so I have heard, it will cause the testes to swell up and possibly burst. That sounds horrible to me. So I just cut. It only takes a few minutes, and other than walking around sore for a day or so they don't even seem to notice. I've never lost a kid from using this method, or had any complications. But I think its just kind of an individual choice which method you use.


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## Laura Workman (May 10, 2002)

I prefer cutting as well. It looks brutal, but complications are very few, and it's a sure thing immediately, unlike a burdizzo.


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## apirlawz (Dec 26, 2003)

Well, that's something I would not want to take on without supervision initially, but if this works, I'm willing to look into it. Do you just remove the testes, or is the whole scrotum removed? What would I be looking at as far as suturing, local anesthetics, etc?


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## Tracy in Idaho (Dec 8, 2002)

I have always banded -- I have never -- never -- had any problem at all. The couple I did this year didn't even seem to notice I put them on. (I did a ton of calves as well) I usually don't even bother though, my boys are eaten before it matters.

The neighbors down the road use a knife. They simply make a cut over each testicle and pull them out, taking as much cord as you can. I have also seen folks just cut the entire bottom of the scrotum off and pull the two out through the bottom. Douse with iodine, and turn them loose.

Tracy


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## trickham (Nov 28, 2004)

I have been using the last method that Tracy described. I cut off about half of the scrotum and then pull out each testicle, including as much of the spermatic cord as possible, squirt them down with iodine, and turn them loose. As I stated earlier, they walk a little bow legged for a day or so, but after that they don't seem to be uncomfortable. This is the method that my grandfather used on calves all of his life and we continue to use on the cattle. I have never lost a goat, and to the best of my knowledge we have never lost a calf.


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## Stacy Adams (Jan 23, 2003)

I band my boys between 6-8 weeks old and like Tracy, have never had a problem.. You guys & gals who cut, how old are they when you do it? and do you need someone to hold 'n someone to cut?


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## trickham (Nov 28, 2004)

Stacy,

Actually, I just cut them whenever I get around to it.  But it can be done anywhere from 2 weeks up I think. One time I tried doing it the way Pat Coleby says she does, in her book Natural Goat Care, the first day the buckling is born. That did not turn out well. I didn't lose him, but he was never very thrifty after that.


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## Baaa (Dec 11, 2004)

We band here and its usually around 2 months old. I give them a tetnus shot as its starting to get hot, we have never had a problem .
They do lay around for a day or two but they eat and jump around also during this time like they did before banding and after about 2 days .. they are fine and back to their normal self. To me its just easier,safer & no blood loss to scatter around the pen.


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## okgoatgal2 (May 28, 2002)

i also cut, about oh....1/2 inch or so off the bottom of the scrotum, pull the testicles out one at a time, douse it and let em go. they don't even seem to walk funny to me-takes 30 seconds or less and it's done, and you know it worked. anywhere from a week on up, depending on how things are going that yr. little blood. yes, i have someone hold them. just makes it easier, but i had to have someone hold the few i've banded, and it takes longer for me to make sure that little band is in the right place and the testicles are down, etc. i use sharp scissors that i disinfect between each kid.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

And then there is me  There is this really cute S&M emoticon gal with a whip I would use right now if it was here 


What you making wethers for? In a true homestead/frugal business running farm your boys would be gone, either sold into breeding homes or on the way to the freezer or locker plant or..way before they are sexually active at 4 months. It's uneconomical to keep bucks who are freezer meat past 12 weeks, once they start consuming grain, just like rabbits, they should be butchered, not held over. You also don't want to even think, being new, about making pets. You also need to know your meat market if you are going to sell most of your boys for meat, most if not all meat guys in my area want the bucks intact. If you don't castrate you also don't have to vaccinate, so your meat would be 'organic'  yeah I know  


I don't make wethers. Vicki


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## apirlawz (Dec 26, 2003)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> What you making wethers for? In a true homestead/frugal business running farm your boys would be gone, either sold into breeding homes or on the way to the freezer or locker plant or..way before they are sexually active at 4 months.


Well, until I know what the heck I'm doing and can actually recognise and produce a quality animal, there is no way I would try to pawn off one of my intact kids on an unsuspecting public!  Which means that for the first few years, I will have a very full freezer.

I do want to keep a couple of wethers. I have about 7 acres of really brushy woods that I would like them to help clean up a little over the next few years, and I am also interested in packing, and since I intend on getting Saanens, I figure a wether would make a pretty good pack goat. So essentially, they would be pets with a purpose.

With this in mind, I really want to make sure I get my castrating job done correctly. With a majority of the buck kids, I probably will just let them go until just before they start getting "frisky" and then butcher, but for the couple that will get "nipped in the bud(s)", I really want to be sure I know what I'm doing! 

April

ps...you should have seen the look on my hubby's face when I asked him which method he thought I should use!! Of course, I had to give him a full description of each method....  LOL!!!


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## Milking Mom (Oct 2, 2004)

Back in the stone age, when my girls were in school. I used to band our lambs. The baby goat boys were either sold or freezer meat within a few months old so I didn't bother with them. 
.....Story: A lady called me asking about banding her pygmy goat. After 3 or 4 telephone calls I told her to just bring him here and I would band him. I informed her of everything that would happen from start to finish. I never heard from her again....until I called 2 weeks later to see how the little guy was doing. She informed me that he was in so much pain that she had to take him to the vet, emergency visit plus +++, well over $100.00, that afternoon after banding and had to have it "surgically" removed. I said you had what surgically removed and she said "Well the band of course." I called up to the vet's office (whom I had known for years.)to see what exactly happened and he said that the goat was laying around and not wanting to walk because he just got banded and it was hurting some so he cut off the band just to please the woman. I said well what in the world did you charge her over $100.00 for and he said ..."Just for being stupid." :haha: :haha: :haha: 

Banding will hurt some. I have had lambs fall down on the ground and act like their back legs don't work, completely refuse to walk, but usually the next day they are up running around again. After a while it cuts off the blood circulation and it goes numb and they can't feel it anyway. It shrivels up and falls off, making a nice neat clean butt. I have not cut my lambs or goats, but I do castrate our bull calves just like it is described above. That hurts too for a day or so I am sure, but it is necessary to get their mind off sex and onto eating.


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## Kaye White (Dec 28, 2004)

Well...here I go! I band here at about 10-14 days.I don't butcher my bucklings-  I prefer beef to goat meat.Just my preference.

Now for reason: Years ago I didn't band,castrate,whatever and had a "shady" character show up wanting *MEAT* goats.Yea,I was assured,"To eat."So,being the naive person that I WAS...sold him two bucklings at 2 weeks old-for $20!.WELL...  come fall and breeding season...lo and behold there were flyers all over the feed stores advertising stud service to these two bucklings!No papers but from "outstanding milking nannies and show herd." AND for only $5.00 per breeding! He made more money out of those two *meat goats* than I did from Reg.proven buck and I guess he bred every *nanny* in 4 counties...because I ran into people all the time touting the virtues of their $5 breeding as opposed to my $15.00 with s.memo! Vowed then and there....nothing leaves here with testicles,that is not top notch and intended for breeding purposes.They are meat priced with rubber band thrown in free!

Kaye


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## Thumper/inOkla. (May 10, 2002)

I have banded, it's ok, I don't think it is cruel at all. 
I like cutting because it is faster, they hollar at the cut, so far I haven't been able to get a full cut through both the skin and membrane at the 1st cut, [so that is 2 cuts per side, but I do have a steady hand so the cuts are clean and well matched, no saw marks or jaged edges] I spray with a 1% phenol throat spray to put the nerves to sleep as needed, they react to the pulling, but be brave and pull everything you can out, they bleed less and heal faster. make sure you get through the membrane, it looks white-ish or cloudy and sorta dry compaired to the testicals.

90% of the time they go with on their normal behavior like nothing happened. The others I spend extra time with to make sure they are fully ok, eating/walking etc. 
I have had no complications at all.


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## apirlawz (Dec 26, 2003)

Kaye White said:


> Vowed then and there....nothing leaves here with testicles,that is not top notch and intended for breeding purposes.They are meat priced with rubber band thrown in free!
> 
> Kaye


Oh geez, now that's a possibility I'd never considered! But then, you must have some mighty fine goats if your cull bucks are throwing kids that are getting raves!!


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## Laura Workman (May 10, 2002)

'K, here are the detailed cutting instructions taught to me by a woman who's been doing it for 20-some years. This should be done on kids under one month old. After that, you can still do it, but it really helps to have an emasculator tool to cut and thoroughly crush the blood vessels and spermatic cord, and also to provide hemostasis. 

Also, PLEASE NOTE: This should NOT be done during or within a couple of days of a full moon because bleeding will be increased. Gravitational pull and all that. I've never done it during a full moon myself, but the woman who taught me this is not into moon magic or anything, so I'm betting she's got a scientific or conventional basis for her advice. There, you've been warned. What you do with it is your choice.

First, for the equipment. A single-edge razor blade that's been used to cut up lots of cardboard so it's not quite so sharp. We don't want really, really sharp because a cut with a dulled blade bleeds less. Also, a pan with surgical scrub. The razor blade sits in the pan to be sterilized. Iodine wound spray - make sure it's the wound spray and not just iodine spray because plain iodine spray will burn like crazy. That's it for equipment.

Have an assistant hold the buckling. The buckling will be sitting on the person's lap with the buckling's back facing the person. The person will have the buckling's right fore and hind leg in their right hand, and left fore and hind in the left hand. The fore and hind are positioned kind of like the animal is laying down, so the hind hoof is pointing up, the fore hoof is pointing down, and the cannon bones cross and can be gripped in one hand. The buckling's head should be tucked back under the person's arm on one side or the other. This is so that when the kid thrashes around, he doesn't bash the person in the face with his head. So now we're all set.

Place the pan under the testicles and wash the area thoroughly. Pick up the razor with your best hand. With the off hand, grasp the bottom of the scrotum and tug slightly, nudging the testicles upward toward the kid's body. Tell the person holding the kid to hang on, because the kid will struggle hard when the cutting starts. Use the razor to cut off the lower one-third, or so, of the scrotum. You will have to saw a bit because the razor isn't that sharp, but that's a good thing, as pointed out above. Put the razor back into the pan. 

Push one testicle toward the open bottom of the scrotum, using your fingers to free it from the membrane surrounding it. Pull the testicle out a bit until you have two or three inches of spermatic cord and blood vessels free of the scrotum and membrane. Now pinch the cord and blood vessels that are still connecting the testicle to the kid firmly between your thumbnail and finger and scrape with your thumbnail a little ways up and down the cord until the cord comes apart, along with the blood vessels attached to it. The testicle will no longer be attached to the kid once the cord and blood vessels separate. Now repeat with the other side. When you've finished, spray the wound thorougly with iodine wound spray and put the kid on the ground. 

Scraping rather than just cutting the cord and blood vessels will significantly reduce bleeding. I imagine just pulling until cord and blood vessels snap would reduce bleeding as well, and I've read that a lot of people do it that way. I just don't think I'd have the nerve, what with not being able to control how far up the cord breaks and all. Yeesh! 

The kid will possibly be a little hunched up, more so if the kid is older, but there will be little if any bleeding. You'll see iodine dripping, but I've only seen blood on one or two kids and then only a couple of drops. On one much older, well-developed kid (three months old and very capable of breeding), we used the emasculator and even then he was bleeding single drops, about one every three seconds or so. We picked him up, put him back into position and held an ice pack on the area for 10 or 15 minutes while we chatted. After that he was fine.

The kid likely will be a little subdued for a day or two, but will then return to his normal self.


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## DayBird (Jul 26, 2004)

So you cut the bottom of the scrotum off and then what? I'm confused.

You just leave the testicles dangling to rot and fall off?
You pull the testicles until the cords and veins snap off?
You cut the testicles off?
You scrape the testicles off with your fingernails?

:no:  :no:  :no:


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## Kaye White (Dec 28, 2004)

Laura,
You are absolutely right about a "full moon" and on another note...when the "signs" are in the heart or reins.
:haha: I am not one of "those" that does everything by the moon or whatever...but for 3 mo. at the vet clinics I worked for...we kept a chart of sorts on surgeries...spays,neuters,dehorning,ect... and at the end of three mo. went back and compared the dates to the signs!  Anytime they(signs) were anywhere near the heart...the surgeries bled more,had more seeping,ect.

Vets always laughed it off until we(Techs) showed them....but it still had to be done, regardless.
Now,if I am doing something that requires cuts to skin,or is going to bleed...  I check the signs,and put it off until they're away from the heart.

Ok,call me nuts...hubby did,until we cut scurs off buck and he bled bad...next time we did it MY way...hardly any blood at all!  

Aprilawz....some of those *nannies* bred to anything would have been an improvement!  It was just a good lesson learned. Even sorry mares sometimes have nice mules when bred to the right jack!  
Kaye


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## Sondra Peterson (Dec 5, 2002)

I banded my first two bucks born here at 2 mo. anything sold for pets are banded also at 2mo. I wait that long as it supposedly allows more growth so stones are not so prevelent. However am like Vicki anything else goes into the freezer.


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## inc (Dec 24, 2004)

and here it is!!!


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## Laura Workman (May 10, 2002)

Daybird, I've edited the instructions to be more clear. No, of course you don't leave the testicles dangling to rot and fall off. Sheesh! No you don't pull until the cords and veins snap off. No you don't cut the testicles off with a blade. Yes, after clearing the membrane from the testicle and pulling the testicle out two or three inches from what's left of the scrotum, you do scrape THE CORD AND BLOOD VESSELS that are still connecting the testicle to the kid, pinching them firmly between your thumbnail and finger and scraping a little ways up and down the cord until the cord comes apart, along with the blood vessels attached to it. The testicle is no longer attached to the kid once the cord and blood vessels separate. The job is done on that side. Then you move on to do the other side. Is that more clear? Do you understand now?


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

We have the vet assistant cut the bucklings the same day he dehorns and vaccinates the kids, usually within a week of being born. Actually did the five bucks born on the 29th two mornings ago. I hold them for everything and I don't like how they respond, but it is done with and there is no chance of it needing to be done again. They are usually up and nursing within an hour unless the boys are a little bigger. Which is why we get them done so early. He cuts off the tip of the scrotum, pulls the two testes down and tears them a bit, then he puts a crushing thing on the two strands and pulls or cuts the testes off. Sprays them then we put them back with their mother and move on to the next kid.
We had a coupel of eyars when we didn't castrate because we figured untouched bucks would bring more money at the market. Then we had some unfortunate inbreeding and started cutting every buck born last year. I was planning on cutting all the bucks born this year but I have someone who wants our half pygmy for breeding his yard goats (also pygmies). So I won't cut him but will get him out of here in two months. Now I just need to find a triplet to put on his dam. Would hate for her to not have something to raise this year.


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## inc (Dec 24, 2004)

sorry to take this laura= but for neophyte this just isnt clear.

"Yes, after clearing the membrane from the testicle and pulling the testicle out two or three inches from what's left of the scrotum," 

the scrotum sac can be cut in two ways- some do individual near vertical slits - | | - in each 'compartment' and some cut 1/2 inch of the whole sac bottom straight across - /_\ - well thats looks like a bigger
L J
...snip... 
either way, inside there is a near white (pink in goat? never done goat) membrane that looks like the end of the testicle but isnt. it is another 'sac' inside the scrotum skin sac.it is tough and 'dryish' like the surface of ...just inside your lower lip.
you cut into this one(tough membrane!) - probably like- | | - i dont know if you can cut this one strait across or not. THEN you will see the near white/pink testicles, looking a lot like the membrane you just slit, peeking out. you squeeze them out one at a time and they will come half way out .

"you do scrape THE CORD AND BLOOD VESSELS"
at point above you then pull the testicle one at a time, dry paper towel for grip (they are slightly slippery and moist) and this is where you will feel the cord start to break on the inside(this hurts so go fast). pulll the cord out untill the testicle is clear of the sacs and you will see the cord and bllood vessels.
the reason the cordis scraped, is to make it clot up very quickly. i would use a serrated knife like the ones that usedto be called 'ginsu' knives. they have little ridges all along the blade and they are cheap.scrape quick back and forth on that cord about 1/2 inch, and you will scraope thru in a few seconds.there has been little blood so far but it will be here. (this is the sqweamish part).

dont meanto hikjack this but these are two important things that i dont think will be obvious to a beginner. that said- it is of course best to learn from helping someone with this farm chore. it is a very useful thing to know.


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## inc (Dec 24, 2004)

...cut in two ways- some do individual near vertical slits - | | - in each 'compartment' 

/_\ 
L J 

well did that come across better?


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## DayBird (Jul 26, 2004)

Laura Jensen said:


> Daybird, I've edited the instructions to be more clear. No, of course you don't leave the testicles dangling to rot and fall off. Sheesh! No you don't pull until the cords and veins snap off. No you don't cut the testicles off with a blade. Yes, after clearing the membrane from the testicle and pulling the testicle out two or three inches from what's left of the scrotum, you do scrape THE CORD AND BLOOD VESSELS that are still connecting the testicle to the kid, pinching them firmly between your thumbnail and finger and scraping a little ways up and down the cord until the cord comes apart, along with the blood vessels attached to it. The testicle is no longer attached to the kid once the cord and blood vessels separate. The job is done on that side. Then you move on to do the other side. Is that more clear? Do you understand now?



Don't be mean. Let's not turn this into a General Chat warzone. I don't know how to do it. That's why I asked the question to clear up my confusion. I'm sorry. I do understand now. It seems that everyone has done it differently. 

I've worked as a vet tech in the past and have helped neuter hundreds of dogs and cats. I'm well aware of the inner anatomy of an animal's testicles. You were the first poster to say anything about severing the cords and veins to remove the testicles. If you would please re-read those who posted before you, you'll see that noone was very clear. They just posted that they "cut" assuming that anyone who read this thread would know exactly what that was and how it was performed.

"i also cut, about oh....1/2 inch or so off the bottom of the scrotum, pull the testicles out one at a time, douse it and let em go."

"I cut off about half of the scrotum and then pull out each testicle, including as much of the spermatic cord as possible, squirt them down with iodine, and turn them loose."

"They simply make a cut over each testicle and pull them out, taking as much cord as you can. I have also seen folks just cut the entire bottom of the scrotum off and pull the two out through the bottom. Douse with iodine, and turn them loose."


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## Thumper/inOkla. (May 10, 2002)

DayBird said:


> They just posted that they "cut" assuming that anyone who read this thread would know exactly what that was and how it was performed.
> 
> "i also cut, about oh....1/2 inch or so off the bottom of the scrotum, pull the testicles out one at a time, douse it and let em go."
> 
> ...




It could well be because the testicals are pulled out until the cords break, thus they are not cut. I find it faster thus less stressfull to just pull them out. As the now short cords slide back into place the pressure of the internal organs, mash them shut and there is almost no bleeding, the sack can fill with fluid which is re-absorbed in a few days, or this fluid might drain out while the outer skin cuts are still open.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

I've always banded and have never had any bad results. Most times, within an hour or two, the little guys are running around like nothing ever happened. 

As for the other methods . . . . I've never done them, but you sure are making me cringe and cross my legs!!! :haha:


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## Thumper/inOkla. (May 10, 2002)

Michael W. Smith said:


> As for the other methods . . . . I've never done them, but you sure are making me cringe and cross my legs!!! :haha:



 I have heard that somewhere before,.... hubby holds,.. I cut.


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## DayBird (Jul 26, 2004)

Michael W. Smith said:


> I've always banded and have never had any bad results. Most times, within an hour or two, the little guys are running around like nothing ever happened.
> 
> As for the other methods . . . . I've never done them, but you sure are making me cringe and cross my legs!!! :haha:



 I think I'll just band also.


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## Laura Workman (May 10, 2002)

Sorry, Daybird, didn't mean to get snippy. I was just rather appalled at the idea someone would think I was suggesting leaving bare testicles dangling to rot off! Eeeew!!!! and Oooowwww!!!



inc said:


> sorry to take this laura= but for neophyte this just isnt clear.
> 
> "Yes, after clearing the membrane from the testicle and pulling the testicle out two or three inches from what's left of the scrotum,"
> 
> ...


If you cut off the lower third of the scrotum, the inner membrane is usually already cut, or has been in my experience, and the ends of the testicles are sticking out a little. Remember, you did this with a sterile but not-so-sharp blade, so only cut what you meant to cut. 



inc said:


> "you do scrape THE CORD AND BLOOD VESSELS"
> at point above you then pull the testicle one at a time, dry paper towel for grip (they are slightly slippery and moist) and this is where you will feel the cord start to break on the inside(this hurts so go fast). pulll the cord out untill the testicle is clear of the sacs and you will see the cord and bllood vessels.
> the reason the cordis scraped, is to make it clot up very quickly. i would use a serrated knife like the ones that usedto be called 'ginsu' knives. they have little ridges all along the blade and they are cheap.scrape quick back and forth on that cord about 1/2 inch, and you will scraope thru in a few seconds.there has been little blood so far but it will be here. (this is the sqweamish part).


I do still have to free the testicle from the membrane because the membrane clings. I do this with my fingers using a "degloving" kind of action (kind of like running your fingers between your sock cuff and your leg). Then I pull the testicle out a bit, until it is clear of what's left of the scrotum and the membrane, as you said, and I can get a clear shot at the cord. I've never had to use anything to help with grip, personally. I don't pull quickly, because I don't want to "break" anything. I want to be in control of where the separation takes place. I use a thumbnail and pinching rather than a knife because there is very little or no blood produced by doing so. Pretty much during this whole procedure, sharp is bad. The blade needs to be sharp enough to get through the skin, with effort, but after that, tearing and scraping (sounds horrible, no?) will result in far less bleeding.

And I forgot to add, no sutures! There will be very little or no blood, and with the bottom third of the scrotum gone, any fluid will drain freely, which is good. The iodine spray will keep flies away while the wound closes as well as preventing infection. If flies are particularly bad, you might want to check the area and spray again a couple of days after the event. I've not used anesthetic. They holler when you do the initial cut, and again when you pull. Other than that, they seem kind of dazed. Can't blame 'em!



inc said:


> dont meanto hikjack this but these are two important things that i dont think will be obvious to a beginner. that said- it is of course best to learn from helping someone with this farm chore. it is a very useful thing to know.


Hey, inc, the more clear we can be with this, the more likely it will go without a hitch for someone in the unfortunate position of having to do it by themselves the first time. Hijack away!


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## inc (Dec 24, 2004)

thanks for clearing thta up. as you can tell i have never done a goat. however from all the instructions given, i believe i could.

was just worried about a possible neophyte, trying this alone....which turned out to be an experienced person!


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