# RFI - Black Powder rifles



## RWeThereYet (Aug 31, 2014)

Ok, I have a lot of experience with centerfire, rimfire, and air rifles.
I have shot a black powder rifle ONCE (and I hit the target, off hand at 50yrds, no worries).
So I am in the market for a black powder rifle to extend my deer taking/freezer occupants this year. 
Range will be on the outside 200yrds open area/field.
Cost can be, low end, sub-$200. High end $300-400 range. No need for scope or rings as I have both now.
Alternative is a large bore air rifle (.45cal). 
Can anyone offer advice?


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

There are quite a few good BP rifles out there, ranging from traditional to modern.
If your one and only reason for shooting BP is meat, I'd recommend a modern inline style, preferably a break action.
Easy to clean, easy to take care of, feels a lot like a CF rifle.
If you want a traditional looking sidelock, there are more than a few of those, and you can get them in percussion or flintlock.
Word of warning, once you get started in black powder, it's hard to stop. :happy2:


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I teach muzzle loader , I agree with cornhusker that if you are just a season extender the break action inlines are the way to go.

I have used a CVA Wolf one of the other instructors won in a raffle and brought to a training , it shot well and is as good a price as your likely to get on a new inline 

things you need to know , 

you absolutely need to clean after every days use even if you fire one shot 

the secret to cleaning black powder or black powder substitute is hot soap and water, a clear water rinse , followed by a thorough drying and re-oiling , you can not "neutralize" the corrosive salts in BP you must flush them away to do this you must get all the fouling out as it holds the salts 

you need a cleaning rod longer than your barrel , you want a jag and brass brush the one that comes with the gun makes a good field loading rod but you want a range rod/ cleaning rod 

you need a anti seize compound for the breech plug threads permatex works fine you find it at any auto parts store

you need to remove the breach plug on a inline every time you clean 

other things you will want 

a powder measure unless you do pellets but pellets don't let you work up a load for accuracy 
patches , for cleaning or if you shoot patched round ball 
sabots or conicals if you want to hunt past 100 yards you will want a conical over a round ball as they carry the energy to the target better 

powder choices I use real black but it is hard to find , triple7s is a good loose or pellet powder , and i have heard good things about Alliant MZ


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Pete,
What's your opinion of Pyrodex?
I came into about 8 pounds of it that I'm using up 80 grains at a time.


----------



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I like Goex BP... American Made.. :rock:


----------



## RWeThereYet (Aug 31, 2014)

Cornhusker said:


> There are quite a few good BP rifles out there, ranging from traditional to modern.
> If your one and only reason for shooting BP is meat, I'd recommend a modern inline style, preferably a break action.
> Easy to clean, easy to take care of, feels a lot like a CF rifle.
> If you want a traditional looking sidelock, there are more than a few of those, and you can get them in percussion or flintlock.
> Word of warning, once you get started in black powder, it's hard to stop. :happy2:


Thank you Cornhusker for your reply.
As you stated I am leaning toward modern inline BP.
Does barrel length greatly improve accuracy? I think it was Knight who use Green Mountain barrels, and claim a 4" group at 200yrds.


----------



## RWeThereYet (Aug 31, 2014)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I teach muzzle loader , I agree with cornhusker that if you are just a season extender the break action inlines are the way to go.
> 
> I have used a CVA Wolf one of the other instructors won in a raffle and brought to a training , it shot well and is as good a price as your likely to get on a new inline
> 
> ...


Thank you for the good information!
I was looking at the CVA Wolf, Optima, and the Traditions Vortek rifles.
Likely I would shoot .45cal sabots. Unless I hear something different, not so much on round ball.
Thank you again for the info.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Cornhusker said:


> Pete,
> What's your opinion of Pyrodex?
> I came into about 8 pounds of it that I'm using up 80 grains at a time.



use it up within a year of opening the can , it becomes more problematic with time an moisture

you could shoot 150 year old black and never know it , I doubt you could even use 15 year old pyrodex if the can was ever opened 

another instructor had a 4-5 year old can and we couldn't get decent ignition in a side lock , a inline with 209 might be hot enough to get it lit 
he didn't take the greatest care in storage , it was just stored in his un-airconditioned house in humid Wisconsin but the lid was on 

other than that it works fine but if you can find real black , it is more cost effective 

I mostly use Diamondback FFFG I like the way FFFg burns with reduced loads and it is what my dealer carries.


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Check your local gun shop for a good nearly new inline ML. Pawn shops are another place to look. If you buy used you will save a good amount of money. I suggest you invest in a good bore lite to look at the bore of a use rifle. Of course you can ball up a wad of tin foil and use a small flash lite too, I have also shined a nickel 38 special case and dropped that in the bore of a 50 cal to look at it.

There a bunch of substute powers instead of the real black. Prodex was about the first on the market, Triple 7 was very popular till Black horn 209 hit the market. It is popular because you don't have to clean ASAP after firing the ML. It does cost more and won't work in some rifles due to the Breach plug design.
Some companies sell a redesigned Breach plug so you can use it.

Buy sabots in bulk from companies like MMP, 
http://mmpsabots.com/

Harvester,
https://www.harvestermuzzleloading....ion=com_virtuemart&Itemid=3&vmcchk=1&Itemid=3


Popular bullets are XTP Hornady and Speer Gold Dots that are cheaper in bulk than buy a package of bullets and sabots together. 

Powder is measured in volume so start low about 70 gr. or so and work up to what works best in YOUR rifle. Not all the same model of rifle will be the same all the time. You rarely have to use more than 100gr to get the best accuracy even though the company may say the rifle can shoot 150gr loads safely.

 Al


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

these http://www.amazon.com/Waterproof-En...F8&qid=1411068154&sr=8-12&keywords=endoscopes
are getting popular on a muzzle loading forum I follow

you can see things you never knew were down your bore and if you have a laptop that you can hook them up to you can take them with you 

that said one of these tiny flash lights http://www.scheels.com/shop/en/scheels-catalog/Traditions-Muzzleloading-Bore-Light-40589-A1332-V3 have been the standard in drop down bore lights for some time , yo uturn it on drop it down ans you can see what is normally in the shadows 

if a muzzle loader has a good bore , and the lock works , stock isn't cracked , they are usually good to go 

a lot of people bought muzzle loaders when they saw some great deal , or for Christmas , as a season extender , then they realized they had no idea what to do with them and they sat unused 
others shot them once , hopefully they cleaned after that one range session and just decided it was to much work 
if they didn't clean then the barrel is usually not good 

I picked up one , the guy shot it a few times , had all the accessories for it , but only the factory ram rod , so it was clean to within 2 inches of the bottom of the barrel , and a sewer pipe at the bottom , luckily that has little effect on accuracy and it works fine 

If you buy an inline you really don't need a bore camera or drop down light

ask them to remove the breach plug , it should come out easily if it was properly cleaned last time , if that comes out , you can see down the barrel if it looks clean and good then you have the 2 biggest issues taken care off


----------



## -justin- (Sep 7, 2014)

if youre going black powder.. why get yourself an inline that wants to be a rifle, just so you can stuff black powder "alternative" into it.. if you want a modern rifle, get one, if you want a muzzle loader, get something thats at least entertaining and fun besides functional

id recommend a caplock hawken rifle, traditional rifle used a lot in the early days of caplock before the civil war

also, pyrodex doesnt perform as well as real black powder.. people who support pyrodex basically just bought into the manufacturers dilusion that its better than that crummy old black powder (of course, just to try to generate more sales by making people believe the real stuff is somehow flawed) fact is, black powder performs better than any of the alternatives, and since its composition is quite simply 75% charcoal, 15% potassium nitrate and 10% sulfur measured by weight, not volume.. its not something a manufacturer can patent and try to capitalize on.. 

in fact, i make my own BP.. cant help but laugh at those people who claim its difficult to make when people have been making it for over 2,000 years in most cases with mortar and pestles

not only will a traditional hawken surpass a modern inline, itll look a hell of a lot better doing it.. heck, ive even seen a replica of a late 1700s pennsylvania long rifle flintlock hitting steel plates at 800 yards consistently


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Guy just wants to extend his hunting experience not do reenactments and such. Probably at this time doesn't want to make his own powder either.
Inlines are legal to use during most muzzle loader seasons what ever they call them. An inline is less finicky with what you pour down the muzzle before the sabot bullet conical or patched round ball. Prodex is some thing I have never used my self but what is nice about it is you can walk into just *about any Wal Mart* and buy a pound or a box of pellets.
Triple seven is what I use 90% of the time and when you start using it they recommend you reduce the charge by 15% from real black so I would think that Triple seven puts the statement of real black being, *black powder performs better than any of the alternatives* a big bag of bull crap.

I also use triple seven in my Hawkins and Plains rifle with great results.





People also like black horn 209 a lot and pay a premium price for it, You also reduce loads with it from real black as it is more power full and what those who use it really like it doesn't turn the barrel into a hunk of junk if you don't clean it for a week, month or a year after shooting.

 Al


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

alleyyooper said:


> Triple seven is what I use 90% of the time and when you start using it they recommend you reduce the charge by 15% from real black so I would think that Triple seven puts the statement of real black being, *black powder performs better than any of the alternatives* a big bag of bull crap.
> 
> I also use triple seven in my Hawkins and Plains rifle with great results.
> 
> ...


*black powder performs better than any of the alternatives* a big bag of bull crap.

it isn't the power , it is the shot to shot consistency

there is a reason the long range muzzle loading team isn't using 777 even though it would be much easier to travel with 

but for the accuracy needed to shoot a deer at 100 yards , it isn't needed and 777 or black horn do fine 

the difference between black and the others is the shot to shot standard deviation in muzzle velocity and some of that can be taken out by weighing loads 

a bunch of guys on a muzzle loading board I follow have been diligently trying to get the groups they are looking for with a number of subs because they are much easier for them to buy locally than order 25 pounds of black from a far away supplier. some are doing very respectable with subs but haven't found the groups they could get with black , there is a reason many target shooters were still shooting black decades after smokeless was common 

for a guy looking to extend his season subs are the way to go and how I started


----------



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Ok shooting Black Powder Rifles and Shotguns 54 years both Traditional and Inline. Right now I would get a Traditions Inline.

Stay clear of 45Cal. go with 50Cal. more selection and easier to find Bullets.

There seems to be a shortage of Bulk Pistol Pistol Bullets so I have went to Maxi Balls.

I use Pyrodex RS once again cheaper and easier to find.

Ok yes Hot Soapy water will clean Black Powder and Pyrodex I clean my Sidelocks with this but I have found this is a pain with New Inlines, I like T/C Black Powder Solvent much better. Use Remington Gun Oil for all my Firearms.

Ok I have several CVA Firearms but the older ones. I have found CVA has started gearing their Rifles for the more high $$ Power Belts, so I stay clear of them.

You will need Powder Measure, Jags and Brushes, 209 Capper and I like Speed Loaders. I would get a decent Black Powder Scope.









Do have many more pictures just saying I do know about these Firearms and know many will disagree just telling what has always worked for me.

big rockpile


----------



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Ok few more Pics. Yes I did use real Black Powder in the '60's and 70's but switched to Pyrodex have never had a problem with it.









big rockpile


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

The original poster wants to extend his hunting season so that shot to shot difference doesn't need to be done with weighed charges volume measurement is fine and what most do for just hunting. Subs are easier to find around this area and when you do find some place that stocks real black it cost more per pound than many of the subs.

 Al


----------



## poorboy (Apr 15, 2006)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> use it up within a year of opening the can , it becomes more problematic with time an moisture
> 
> you could shoot 150 year old black and never know it , I doubt you could even use 15 year old pyrodex if the can was ever opened
> 
> ...



I finished last fall a can of pyrodex P that I have been shooting out of since 1986, I pour from the bottle into a flask on a dry day, then shoot from the flask..Make sure the lid is tight when you close the Pyrodex up and store it in a dry area..The jug I'm using now I purchased in 1986 also..have know several others who have used 10-15 yr. old pyrodex..
I believe care in use and storage is responsible for it's long life..I always fire some of it each season before hunting just to make sure it's still viable..


----------



## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> *black powder performs better than any of the alternatives* a big bag of bull crap.
> 
> it isn't the power , *it is the shot to shot consistency*
> 
> ...


Agreed. 

My BP shooting has been strictly Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette (500meters), Buffalo matches, and 800-900-1000 yards. No one, and I mean no one I knew that competed and doing well was/is using a substitute. Most spring for Swiss Powder 1.5 grain, at $20 a pound before hazmat and shipping (if you buy in bulk). For comparison I can get Goex for $13.50 bulk, but the Swiss is worth it. 

I've chronographed a lot of BP and a couple substitutes, the stats on Swiss are superior, and more importantly the lot to lot variations were less, meaning a lot less time (and money)working up loads. Not a big deal when hunting, but a killer at distance when every MOA counts. 

In my inline I use Blackhorn 209.

Chuck


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

poorboy said:


> I finished last fall a can of pyrodex P that I have been shooting out of since 1986, I pour from the bottle into a flask on a dry day, then shoot from the flask..Make sure the lid is tight when you close the Pyrodex up and store it in a dry area..The jug I'm using now I purchased in 1986 also..have know several others who have used 10-15 yr. old pyrodex..
> I believe care in use and storage is responsible for it's long life..I always fire some of it each season before hunting just to make sure it's still viable..


I agree care in storage and use will go a long way , the other instructor I was working with left his pyrodex in the can in a very humid hot environment 

I found this on pyrodex today it is an interesting read http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=31846.25

with 209 ignition the alliant MZ and blackhorn 209 are very appealing and if a person was shooting a pound or less every few years it would make more scenes , Like I said I started with 777 in a 209 gun but it definitely needed cleaning when done shooting I was also buying it after christmas when the store would discount it considerably rather than sit on it till the next November 

now I burn multiple pounds a year and found a dealer that isn't overly far away , although ordering a case for 14 dollars a pound with hazmat is fine if you will use that much or break it up with friends 
many around here that are active muzzle loaders bought a case for themselves as black basically keeps for ever


----------



## poorboy (Apr 15, 2006)

To build my supply of black powder and use up my Pyrodex..Gonna shoot the Pyro til it's all gone, as that's what i have my rifles regulated for..Have aboot 4 cans of goex and one can of elephant..


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

As long as we are showing pictures, here's my "new" Thompson Renegade .50


----------

