# The China answer!



## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

The other thread about the mass shootings got me to thinking. If I were in charge, what would I do to stop or at least reduce them. I’ve thought and thought and I honestly don’t know how you could stop them. I saw a show recently on how China deals with bad behavior in their country. They have cameras everywhere with facial recognition so they track and watch everyone. They give people a score based on their behavior. They monitor their activity on line and keep tabs on their behavior everywhere they go. If you seem to be prone to bad behavior they intervene. They talked to the people about it and the ones interviewed didn’t seem to mind (but then would they feel free to say otherwise). If you are not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about was their attitude. Kids who struggled in class were picked up by the cameras and the teacher was alerted to give them extra help so in some ways it was good. 


So, it seems to be a tradeoff of privacy and freedoms for security which brings me back to solutions. No matter what I come up with as a solution, I see problems. Gun controls could affect the innocent. Picking people up in the white coats and locking them away because someone thinks they are crazy and dangerous could end up like one flew over the coo coo’s nest. Monitoring our every move like in China would certainly catch criminal behavior but it would also catch innocent behavior that is none of their business, and the solutions/problems just go on and on. So how much are you willing to give up to be safe?


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## Tobster (Feb 24, 2009)

Miss Kay said:


> The other thread about the mass shootings got me to thinking. So how much are you willing to give up to be safe?


You have the same chance of dying from a dog attack ( 1 in 110,000) as being killed by a mass shooter. Exponentially greater odds of being killed in a car crash than by a shooter. You are more likely to die from heart disease or cancer. 

It is perfectly normal to feel anxiety in the aftermath of these events. You are not alone.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Miss Kay said:


> So how much are you willing to give up to be safe?


People in China aren't safe.
They have no guns either.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Actually i'm not worried about myself. I'm old, live on a hill in the middle of nowhere, and barely leave the homestead so chocolate will be the death of me. Just wish the rest of the country could be so peaceful!


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Those who give up liberty for security deserve neither.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> People in China aren't safe.
> They have no guns either.


I honestly fear the government more than I fear a random stranger.

I know a lot of the reports about China's dystopian nightmare are positive, but there are a bunch of videos/articles out there about how they crack down on people who don't toe the party line. There's one I remember seeing about a journalist who dared to speak out against the government, and now he's basically trapped in his apartment because he doesn't have the "social credit" to be allowed to travel anywhere, since you can't buy a plane or bus ticket without good enough "credit." He can't leave, he can't get a job, he literally cannot do anything but exist, at least as long as they allow him to - people are still disappearing in the middle of the night there. You don't even have to do anything wrong, either, you might have been a friend or a relative of him or someone like him and have your "social credit" destroyed because you didn't "disavow" him or turn him in. 

On top of that, China is using the technologies like facial recognition and social credit scores to intern groups the government disapproves of for any reason, like the Uighurs.

Sound like any other government's actions in recent history? We all know how that ended.

I hope we're never that stupid. I think we're heading that way, though.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

Drug overdoses kill more folk in the U.S than all gun violence. Nobody ever talks about how to fix that. There are consist themes with these shooters....mental illness. That's where we need to start.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

I think we can trace the problem back to when both mom and dad had to work to pay the bills. Before that, moms knew other moms and knew what was going on in the neighborhood. Kids were better supervised. Everyone knew who the troublemaker kids were.

Take both parents out of the home for 10 hours a day, stop going to church and Sunday school, and trusting the schools to provide proper guidance, has let too many kids fall through the cracks and they grow up without a strong set of values.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Chores. Work ethic. Parents involved in the children’s lives.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

> ↑
> The other thread about the mass shootings got me to thinking. So how much are you willing to give up to be safe?


Not much.

QUOTE="Tobster, post: 8415708, member: 36794"]You have the same chance of dying from a dog attack ( 1 in 110,000) as being killed by a mass shooter. Exponentially greater odds of being killed in a car crash than by a shooter. You are more likely to die from heart disease or cancer.

It is perfectly normal to feel anxiety in the aftermath of these events. You are not alone.[/QUOTE]

That's an interesting factoid.
I like dogs, always owned them and never feared doing so.
Reckon I look at this the same way. 
It's a terrible event but at such a time, I'd feel safer with one of my big ole dogs at my side.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

.............There's a point at which the citizens of the US aren't going to comply with laws enacted in DC , when it becomes obvious that our Constitution has been violated ! With guns we can fight back , and the local LEO's aren't just going to show UP and 'do' as they please . They will spill a sizable quantity of their blood to carry out orders from DC . Pain is a great teacher and motivator and watching the local cops , dressed like the US military being hauled off to the hospital may attenuate their zeal to do Washinton's bidding .
.............Besides when the local Sheriff has to kill people that voted him into office , he may not be that motivated to murder his neighbors so he can collect their previously , legally obtained firearms ! It should be obvious that there is a point whereby the legal gun owners are simply not going to be pushed any further than the gate on their yard fence .
.............China's greatest fear is wide spread unemployment of their own people ! Because once this occurs , then China must begin killing it's own to control the masses ! Camera's , imprisonment , and torture , are not enough to overcome hunger and loss of home and family and the existing power structure will , eventually be over thrown , and many millions of lives sacrificed until a new government is established ! Look at Hong Kong , multiply this by a million and you have what will happen in China should normal society break down and chaos will ensue !
..............Hong Kong is at a VERY dangerous point in it's history , because at some point China is going to bring Troops in to re establish order , and we'll have another Tinamen Square . Once Chinese troops move on Hong Kong they will , NEVER leave ! And , so HK will have essentially , lost all the freedoms they previously enjoyed when Britian returned HK to China . , fordy


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> I think we can trace the problem back to when both mom and dad had to work to pay the bills. Before that, moms knew other moms and knew what was going on in the neighborhood. Kids were better supervised. Everyone knew who the troublemaker kids were.
> 
> Take both parents out of the home for 10 hours a day, stop going to church and Sunday school, and trusting the schools to provide proper guidance, has let too many kids fall through the cracks and they grow up without a strong set of values.


I don't know, I think it's something different.

I'm in my late 40's. The first generation of large numbers of latchkey kids, first generation where it was totally normal to have divorced parents, and you're usually living with just one of them who didn't have a whole lot of time for you because they were working. I remember my younger sister and I packing our lunches in the morning and going to school, mom was at work already. Walking ourselves from school to the neighbor lady's house, staying there until 6 when she closed her "daycare" and then going home and cooking dinner for myself and my sister starting at around 7-8 years old, because mom was still working. Lots of our friends did the same. No one really knew what the heck we were doing at any given time, no cell phones, parent/s working, us figuring it out as best we could. Latchkey kids of the 70's-80's, remember us? 

My sister and I learned responsibility from that. We learned how to handle our own...crap?...and deal with the world as it was. Most of the people I knew that were in the same situation as my sister and I were are some of the most responsible and conscientious people I know, to this day.

Parental supervision is good, I'm not going to argue that. But I don't think it can be totally blamed on supervision or lack thereof. There's something different in the mindset of these younger people that wasn't there in the age of "benevolent neglect" that I grew up in. We knew our place, we knew our responsibility to ourselves and to the group. It's something else, now.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Just when did we put city cops into cars and eliminate neighborhood call boxes? Every city block needs a good ole' Irish "flatfoot" with a nightstick. Anybody not at home without a valid reason after ten o'clock gets a rap on the head for the second offense.



geo


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

About 40 years ago, the uncle of a buddy of mine was out drinking late one night and got behind the wheel of his 68 Pontiac and started weaving and swerving home along the country roads. County Sheriff tailed him and threw on the lights. The guy decided he would try to lose him.
Two counties, two sheriff cars and a state trooper later he pulled over. The state trooper cuffed him and put him in the back of his car. He then climbed in and beat the tar out of him.
My understanding is that the story has been retold every time to show how stupid the guy's uncle was and that he got what he deserved. The Uncle retells it like that as well.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

you just discribed my worst nightmare, i don't want to live in a world like china


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

It's already happening here anyway though just not yet with facial recognition. They have been rating you on almost every aspect of your life. There is already talk in some cities to install facial recognition for "safety" sake.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> I think we can trace the problem back to when both mom and dad had to work to pay the bills. Before that, moms knew other moms and knew what was going on in the neighborhood. Kids were better supervised. Everyone knew who the troublemaker kids were.
> 
> Take both parents out of the home for 10 hours a day, stop going to church and Sunday school, and trusting the schools to provide proper guidance, has let too many kids fall through the cracks and they grow up without a strong set of values.


This was meant as a metaphor for the weakening of the family and other neighborhood institutions such as churches, and strengthening of government as the determinant of morality. In the 60's is where we start to see a major encroachment into the family by government.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

About 30 years ago, a new young teacher at the school I was at was complaining about a particular student being troublesome. I pointed out he was a pretty good kid, especially since he was raising himself. The kid was getting up, getting his siblings up and dressed and on the bus in the morning and doing the house work and cooking for the family at night. Parents got home in time to eat late meal and go to bed so they could get up early and head out the next morning. He wasn't the only kid at school doing this either.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

*The Most Spied Upon Cities in the World*
5. Chongqing, China 
4. New York
3. Chicago
2. Beijing
1. London (UK)
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles...ticles/most-spied-on-cities-in-the-world.html

*CCTV Britain: Why are we the most spied on country in the world?*
https://www.express.co.uk/expressyo...are-we-the-most-spied-on-country-in-the-world

*One surveillance camera for every 11 people in Britain, says CCTV survey*
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technol...ry-11-people-in-Britain-says-CCTV-survey.html

*Britain: the most spied on nation in the world*
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1533054/Britain-the-most-spied-on-nation-in-the-world.html

*Fearful Regimes are Oppressive Regimes ! * Fact of Life recorded over thousands of years. 
WHO is terrified & Paranoid of others and their actions ? NOT China or Russia - think on it... What Nation has lived with daily doses of fear, anger & hatred for the past 20 years.* Fear leads to Anger, which leads to Hatred and results in Conflict.* Another truth from History and we see it happening right now, today on the news, streets and everywhere...


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> It's already happening here anyway though just not yet with facial recognition. They have been rating you on almost every aspect of your life. There is already talk in some cities to install facial recognition for "safety" sake.


Many facial recognition systems are in place in the US, many, many of them.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Ever notice how many Chinese we see post here? They speak English, they read and write it even better.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Steve_S said:


> *The Most Spied Upon Cities in the World*
> 5. Chongqing, China
> 4. New York
> 3. Chicago
> ...


I really like the real-life follow the cops as they solve a crime show (like the First 48, here). I was watching a British version of this sort of show and literally everything that came across their desk, they immediately say, "Pull the CCTV. Yep, there he is, arrest him." In the few that they don't have CCTV footage of the crime, it's like they don't know what to do. Those seem to go unsolved because they've lost the ability to figure it out if it wasn't caught on camera.

By the way, a lot of those cameras that the governments are using (us included) are manufactured, and the software developed in China. They're backdooring into our CCTV, I'm sure to develop databases of our faces and activities, too.

What a wonderful world we live in.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mish said:


> I really like the real-life follow the cops as they solve a crime show (like the First 48, here). I was watching a British version of this sort of show and literally everything that came across their desk, they immediately say, "Pull the CCTV. Yep, there he is, arrest him." In the few that they don't have CCTV footage of the crime, it's like they don't know what to do. Those seem to go unsolved because they've lost the ability to figure it out if it wasn't caught on camera.
> 
> By the way, a lot of those cameras that the governments are using (us included) are *manufactured, and the software developed in China.* They're backdooring into our CCTV, I'm sure to develop databases of our faces and activities, too.
> 
> What a wonderful world we live in.


Hence the ban on Huawei


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Mish said:


> I really like the real-life follow the cops as they solve a crime show (like the First 48, here). I was watching a British version of this sort of show and literally everything that came across their desk, they immediately say, "Pull the CCTV. Yep, there he is, arrest him." In the few that they don't have CCTV footage of the crime, it's like they don't know what to do. Those seem to go unsolved because they've lost the ability to figure it out if it wasn't caught on camera.
> 
> By the way, a lot of those cameras that the governments are using (us included) are manufactured, and the software developed in China. They're backdooring into our CCTV, I'm sure to develop databases of our faces and activities, too.
> 
> What a wonderful world we live in.


CCTV in the UK starting going in quite a while back thanks to the IRA and the attacks, you might even say the Brit's turned it into what is evolving now. You're so right that they are depending so much on the tech that it has negative side effects, like now they will all have to go to Sherlock Holmes School of Criminal Science to learn deductive reasoning and critical thinking...  As for the Chinese, they saw something they wanted, copied the idea and refined it, just like everyone else has & IS doing. You know those toy drones so many play with, look at how much they have evolved technologically in just 5 years... that "fast paced evolved" product / tech went right back to security, government & military technology developers too... it all does as tech evolves. But this has also led to better self-navigation technologies to quadcopters & other aircraft tech even into medical sciences (scanning & sensing tech).

*The Pentagon Is Launching Mass Surveillance Balloons Over America*
https://futurism.com/the-byte/pentagon-mass-surveillance-balloons-america


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Chores. Work ethic. Parents involved in the children’s lives.


Bingo!


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

GTX63 said:


> About 40 years ago, the uncle of a buddy of mine was out drinking late one night and got behind the wheel of his 68 Pontiac and started weaving and swerving home along the country roads. County Sheriff tailed him and threw on the lights. The guy decided he would try to lose him.
> Two counties, two sheriff cars and a state trooper later he pulled over. The state trooper cuffed him and put him in the back of his car. He then climbed in and beat the tar out of him.
> My understanding is that the story has been retold every time to show how stupid the guy's uncle was and that he got what he deserved. The Uncle retells it like that as well.


Sounds like the trooper was a Chinaman in a white t-shirt. Hear thats way they handle it.


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## prinellie (Mar 16, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> I think we can trace the problem back to when both mom and dad had to work to pay the bills. Before that, moms knew other moms and knew what was going on in the neighborhood. Kids were better supervised. Everyone knew who the troublemaker kids were.
> 
> Take both parents out of the home for 10 hours a day, stop going to church and Sunday school, and trusting the schools to provide proper guidance, has let too many kids fall through the cracks and they grow up without a strong set of values.


Amen Moon River. Amen. It is all about taking God out of everything and parents not being parents. Each thing affects the next. The U.S. kills 40 million babies a year! 40 MILLION! Don’t talk to me about infringing any more on the 2Nd Amendment or giving up more rights that are God given


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

prinellie said:


> Amen Moon River. Amen. It is all about taking God out of everything and parents not being parents. Each thing affects the next. The U.S. kills 40 million babies a year! 40 MILLION! Don’t talk to me about infringing any more on the 2Nd Amendment or giving up more rights that are God given



Religion is not required to be a good person. Might help, might not. Seems its a pretty good toss up about religions ability to do good. 
Hmm, forcing people to have kids seems like a problem. Unwanted kids even more of a issue. Got enough of them that are not getting raised well. Including the parents that “wanted” kids. 
Lots of hard to solve issues going on unfortunately.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Redlands Okie said:


> Religion is not required to be a good person. Might help, might not. Seems its a pretty good toss up about religions ability to do good.
> Hmm, forcing people to have kids seems like a problem. Unwanted kids even more of a issue. Got enough of them that are not getting raised well. Including the parents that “wanted” kids.
> Lots of hard to solve issues going on unfortunately.


It's not just about religion, but also the local church(es) being part of the community. It's a place for people to come together for potluck dinners and ice cream socials. It was often where the Boy Scouts met. It was where kids went for 2 weeks in the summer for vacation Bible camp. It's where couples get married and their children are baptized. It's a place where people try to help others in their community. Even if churches never held services, they would be a vital part of a community.


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## prinellie (Mar 16, 2016)

Unfortunately that is true. If people weren’t having sex outside of marriage there would be less abortions and less unwanted children - and... that is Biblical. All I know is we live around a lot of Amish. They are raised to have good work ethic and that family is very important! It is such a pleasure to be around them. (And yes I know - there is bad everywhere...). Even the churches have gone ‘social’ because so many people don’t want to hear the truth But that is just my knowledge of these things


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

Miss Kay said:


> The other thread about the mass shootings got me to thinking. If I were in charge, what would I do to stop or at least reduce them. I’ve thought and thought and I honestly don’t know how you could stop them. I saw a show recently on how China deals with bad behavior in their country. They have cameras everywhere with facial recognition so they track and watch everyone. They give people a score based on their behavior. They monitor their activity on line and keep tabs on their behavior everywhere they go. If you seem to be prone to bad behavior they intervene. They talked to the people about it and the ones interviewed didn’t seem to mind (but then would they feel free to say otherwise). If you are not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about was their attitude. Kids who struggled in class were picked up by the cameras and the teacher was alerted to give them extra help so in some ways it was good.
> 
> 
> So, it seems to be a tradeoff of privacy and freedoms for security which brings me back to solutions. No matter what I come up with as a solution, I see problems. Gun controls could affect the innocent. Picking people up in the white coats and locking them away because someone thinks they are crazy and dangerous could end up like one flew over the coo coo’s nest. Monitoring our every move like in China would certainly catch criminal behavior but it would also catch innocent behavior that is none of their business, and the solutions/problems just go on and on. So how much are you willing to give up to be safe?



If you think about it, life has become disposable. It all started with killing unborn babies. If its okay to kill the unborn it devalues all life. You add in broken families, media hyping, violent video games, sick movies glorifying all kinds of bad behavior, mental health issues, lack of personal responsibility and you have a broken society. Attitudes about guns are also an issue. Back in history when I was in school, guns were not considered evil. We understood they were dangerous and not to mess with them. It wasn't unusual for 12 year old boys to own a 22 rifle and know how to safely use it. My grandfather kept a loaded shotgun hanging over his backdoor. He told us it was loaded and dangerous and we were not to touch it. It never occurred to me to disobey him even as a teenager. I recently discussed this with my sister and she agreed with that. Our dad kept guns unlocked (also unloaded) in our home and we were forbidden to touch them so we didn't. Even at a young age we understood the difference between disobeying in small ways and a dangerous behavior which included guns. We understood they were dangerous and for adults only. 

I personally would not agree with giving up all our freedoms in order to try to stop mass killings. We would be exchanging fear of mass shooting for fear of the government controlling our lives.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

MoonRiver said:


> It's not just about religion, but also the local church(es) being part of the community. It's a place for people to come together for potluck dinners and ice cream socials. It was often where the Boy Scouts met. It was where kids went for 2 weeks in the summer for vacation Bible camp. It's where couples get married and their children are baptized. It's a place where people try to help others in their community. Even if churches never held services, they would be a vital part of a community.


Leave the religion out, make it a social meeting house. Sounds like a really good deal.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Redlands Okie said:


> Leave the religion out, make it a social meeting house. Sounds like a really good deal.


When you leave religion out, the result is right in front of you. The church shuts down and along with it all the social benefits that go along with it.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Two mass shootings killing 30 people in TWO DAYS! and all the politicians , liberal journalists and other shallow thinkers go nuts. If it had been over two weeks and not two days, would it have been better some how?
During those same two days 200 Americans were killed on our highways...and that happens EVERY two days all yr long, EVERY year.

Controlling guns to stop murder is like controlling razor blades to stop suicide. You gotta get at cause of the problem to solve it. For mass murderers, it's loneliness and frustration- the common thread among all of them. It's a result of the dehumanization caused by mega-society & mega-govt. We need more family & small, local community involvement in our lives and less regulation from centralized, depersonalized sources.


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## prinellie (Mar 16, 2016)

...and it all goes back to God if you are open minded enough to think about it. God is not religion.


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## prinellie (Mar 16, 2016)

Mish said:


> I really like the real-life follow the cops as they solve a crime show (like the First 48, here). I was watching a British version of this sort of show and literally everything that came across their desk, they immediately say, "Pull the CCTV. Yep, there he is, arrest him." In the few that they don't have CCTV footage of the crime, it's like they don't know what to do. Those seem to go unsolved because they've lost the ability to figure it out if it wasn't caught on camera.
> 
> By the way, a lot of those cameras that the governments are using (us included) are manufactured, and the software developed in China. They're backdooring into our CCTV, I'm sure to develop databases of our faces and activities, too.
> 
> What a wonderful world we live in.


Google is GIVING all our secrets to the chinese. They are the ones who are helping the chinese govt create all those things they are using against their own people. They are being investigated now by our intelligence community. Hard to say what will happen because our government is in bed with google also. Still are willing to give up your freedoms? Not me. Not ever. Every day each person in this country commits at least one felony. And you don’t even know which one it is... and SOMEDAY they will use that against you. Still wanna think you haven’t done anything wrong so you don’t care what you give up? ... be my guest


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Religion is man made.


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## prinellie (Mar 16, 2016)

Yep... @GTX63. But God is real.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

prinellie said:


> Yep... @GTX63. But God is real.


You have faith that god is real, others don't share that faith.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> You have faith that god is real, others don't share that faith.


That does not make Him less real


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## prinellie (Mar 16, 2016)

Irish Pixie said:


> You have faith that god is real, others don't share that faith.


You don’t have to. ☺


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

prinellie said:


> ...and it all goes back to God if you are open minded enough to think about it. God is not religion.


And yet so many that lack faith in providence will put their faith in government to do good things for them. Oh the irony....


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> That does not make Him less real


And I'm glad you have your faith that god exists. I don't.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> And yet so many that lack faith in providence will put their faith in government to do good things for them. Oh the irony....


That right there should confuse everyone


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> And I'm glad you have your faith that god exists. I don't.


I know, you keep telling us that, over, and over, and over


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## prinellie (Mar 16, 2016)

GTX63 said:


> And yet so many that lack faith in providence will put their faith in government to do good things for them. Oh the irony....


Quite! The path is narrow and we see that more and more these days. If we true believers are wrong there is no harm done. Not so the other way...


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> I know, you keep telling us that, over, and over, and over


I don't think I've said it in quite awhile before today, the whole "no religion or politics" rule. It must have been relaxed tho, cuz there is a lot of each going on lately.

I truly am glad that you have faith there is a god. My beliefs do nothing to keep you from having that faith.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Prinellie, trust and faith are embedded in humans. Some choose to invest it with a manager ie their spouse, their boss, their bank, their government who may or may not make the best decisions on your behalf. And if they don't, well, stinks to be you.
My faith is invested in one who allows me to make my own decisions and live my life as I see fit, in spite of someone else's rules or edicts.
Funny how that all works.


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## prinellie (Mar 16, 2016)

@GTX63 It doesn’t stink to be me... (not sure why you say that ☺) But that’s the nice thing - everyone gets to think and believe whatever they want!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

GTX63 said:


> And yet so many that lack faith in providence will put their faith in government to do good things for them. Oh the irony....


No one has to have faith there is a government, there's proof.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

prinellie said:


> @GTX63 It doesn’t stink to be me... (not sure why you say that ☺) But that’s the nice thing - everyone gets to think and believe whatever they want!


Nope, it doesn't stink to be you. You sound like you have a good foundation, despite what society may try to label and denounce you as.


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## prinellie (Mar 16, 2016)

GTX63 said:


> Nope, it doesn't stink to be you. You sound like you have a good foundation, despite what society may try to label and denounce you as.


Yes thank goodness they are not my Judge!! I ignore what society says


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> No one has to have faith there is a government, there's proof.


Yes but faith *in* government is a whole 'nother ballgame.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> Yes but faith *in* government is a whole 'nother ballgame.


This is true.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

MoonRiver said:


> When you leave religion out, the result is right in front of you. The church shuts down and along with it all the social benefits that go along with it.


Sad state of affairs when religion is needed to do right. 

I will say that it seems humans have a automatic tendency towards religion. Of some sort. Thus a lot of the conflicts as a result. Especially when it conflicts with the political powers of the area.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

God is the origin of morals.
We are free.
One doesn't have to recognize it or practice it or even admit it, but it does explain much.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

GTX63 said:


> God is the origin of morals.
> We are free.
> One doesn't have to recognize it or practice it or even admit it, but it does explain much.


Nope. Morals are a person's innate values and standards of behavior, both right or wrong.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Redlands Okie said:


> Sad state of affairs when religion is needed to do right.
> 
> I will say that it seems humans have a *automatic tendency towards religion*. Of some sort. Thus a lot of the conflicts as a result. Especially when it conflicts with the political powers of the area.


In my observations people have a tendency toward *any group* that they feel they fit into. I don't think that will change as we are an animal that is very social.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

I think your correct.


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## manfred (Dec 21, 2005)

Long ago my grandmother (of 13) kids started sleeping with the preacher and deeded over the farm to him.
It had long lasting effects on all the siblings.
That's part of the reason I have turned against religion.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> People in China aren't safe.
> They have no guns either.


Not to mention the organ harvesting.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

GTX63 said:


> About 40 years ago, the uncle of a buddy of mine was out drinking late one night and got behind the wheel of his 68 Pontiac and started weaving and swerving home along the country roads. County Sheriff tailed him and threw on the lights. The guy decided he would try to lose him.
> Two counties, two sheriff cars and a state trooper later he pulled over. The state trooper cuffed him and put him in the back of his car. He then climbed in and beat the tar out of him.
> My understanding is that the story has been retold every time to show how stupid the guy's uncle was and that he got what he deserved. The Uncle retells it like that as well.


A local juvenile delinquent got into mischief with a shotgun. Later he was corrected by an adult who somehow broke the shotgun. The cops showed up. Heard the story, laughed and left. The kid was much more sociable afterwards.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

doc- said:


> Two mass shootings killing 30 people in TWO DAYS! and all the politicians , liberal journalists and other shallow thinkers go nuts. If it had been over two weeks and not two days, would it have been better some how?
> During those same two days 200 Americans were killed on our highways...and that happens EVERY two days all yr long, EVERY year.
> 
> Controlling guns to stop murder is like controlling razor blades to stop suicide. You gotta get at cause of the problem to solve it. For mass murderers, it's loneliness and frustration- the common thread among all of them. It's a result of the dehumanization caused by mega-society & mega-govt. We need more family & small, local community involvement in our lives and less regulation from centralized, depersonalized sources.


https://fee.org/articles/mass-shoot...ubwZSTuTpvCOBOfWsPSgrwLfx21PKz5nLn8zBY-8c_o40


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Redlands Okie said:


> Sad state of affairs when religion is needed to do right.
> 
> I will say that it seems humans have a automatic tendency towards religion. Of some sort. Thus a lot of the conflicts as a result. Especially when it conflicts with the political powers of the area.


Birds of a feather. Humans tend to be pack animals.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

manfred said:


> Long ago my grandmother (of 13) kids started sleeping with the preacher and deeded over the farm to him.
> It had long lasting effects on all the siblings.
> That's part of the reason I have turned against religion.


I would have very strongly turned against that preacher. I guess tho, she did it, so it would really be her fault.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

geo in mi said:


> Just when did we put city cops into cars and eliminate neighborhood call boxes? Every city block needs a good ole' Irish "flatfoot" with a nightstick. Anybody not at home without a valid reason after ten o'clock gets a rap on the head for the second offense.
> 
> 
> 
> geo


 The city cops in the two cities near me do a version of the old walk the beat community policing during summer by having an officer of a 2 man unit walk a neighborhood with his handheld radio and cellphone interacting with residents for up to an hour or so as his partner drives the zone area of the route being walked as close back up if needed and to pick his partner up after the 1 to 4 block beat walk.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Miss Kay said:


> So how much are you willing to give up to be safe?


Absolutely nothing...


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

geo in mi said:


> Just when did we put city cops into cars and eliminate neighborhood call boxes? Every city block needs a good ole' Irish "flatfoot" with a nightstick. Anybody not at home without a valid reason after ten o'clock gets a rap on the head for the second offense.
> 
> 
> 
> geo


Sounds like you wanna move to China?


Funny all the discussion about how china controls their population yet it’s the United States that has the largest portion of their population in prison


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

manfred said:


> Long ago my grandmother (of 13) kids started sleeping with the preacher and deeded over the farm to him.
> It had long lasting effects on all the siblings.
> That's part of the reason I have turned against religion.


 My Family was similar my mother and both grandmothers all slept with the preacher that they were married to. 
I suppose it was the foundation of my faith.

of course all the males in my religion are preachers


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope. Morals are a person's innate values and standards of behavior, both right or wrong.


Lol 
No way morals and right or wrong are defined by religion. 

If you want to see your innate morals in action simply watch a three-year-old take a toy away from a two-year-old and leave them crying without the least care in the world.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> My Family was similar my mother and both grandmothers all slept with the preacher that they were married to.
> I suppose it was the foundation of my faith.
> 
> of course all the males in my religion are preachers


Jerry Springer?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol
> No way morals and right or wrong are defined by religion.
> 
> If you want to see your innate morals in action simply watch a three-year-old take a toy away from a two-year-old and leave them crying without the least care in the world.


You may want to watch this PBS episode (NOVA) on how young moral decisions start being made.
https://www.pbs.org/video/are-babies-capable-making-moral-judgements-3q92ut/

Pretty interesting and the studies on this go back a long time, this was just a recent one.
However many people get tangled up when they debate this issue because they equate religion with God, which starts them going off in the ditch almost immediately, lol.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Morals are not created by man however they can be shaped, altered and fitted to suit the individual.
It is our soup from someone else's recipe.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

farmrbrown said:


> You may want to watch this PBS episode (NOVA) on how young moral decisions start being made.
> https://www.pbs.org/video/are-babies-capable-making-moral-judgements-3q92ut/
> 
> Pretty interesting and the studies on this go back a long time, this was just a recent one.
> However many people get tangled up when they debate this issue because they equate religion with God, which starts them going off in the ditch almost immediately, lol.


 Synopsis please?


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

Miss Kay said:


> The other thread about the mass shootings got me to thinking. If I were in charge, what would I do to stop or at least reduce them. I’ve thought and thought and I honestly don’t know how you could stop them. I saw a show recently on how China deals with bad behavior in their country. They have cameras everywhere with facial recognition so they track and watch everyone. They give people a score based on their behavior. They monitor their activity on line and keep tabs on their behavior everywhere they go. If you seem to be prone to bad behavior they intervene. They talked to the people about it and the ones interviewed didn’t seem to mind (but then would they feel free to say otherwise). If you are not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about was their attitude. Kids who struggled in class were picked up by the cameras and the teacher was alerted to give them extra help so in some ways it was good.
> 
> 
> So, it seems to be a tradeoff of privacy and freedoms for security which brings me back to solutions. No matter what I come up with as a solution, I see problems. Gun controls could affect the innocent. Picking people up in the white coats and locking them away because someone thinks they are crazy and dangerous could end up like one flew over the coo coo’s nest. Monitoring our every move like in China would certainly catch criminal behavior but it would also catch innocent behavior that is none of their business, and the solutions/problems just go on and on. So how much are you willing to give up to be safe?


Living under a Chinese communist system doesn't seem like any kind of solution to gun violence. The problem with gun control laws is still that criminals don't obey laws and don't get guns legally.

I don't care for guns and I don't want one. But making a law for this issue which is punitive against the innocent as well as the guilty is just brainless.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

I wouldn't trade one inch worth of freedom, for a miles worth of security.


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