# out of hay...



## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

man, i sure regret not being able to find someone to do our 2nd cutting 
for us! been having to buy hay for the past month and it is literally driving
us to the poor house. definitely know we couldn't keep these boys if
we didnt grow our own hay.
problem is our 20 acre hay field is pretty much exhausted and we havent
any money to reseed...so bad that our regular cutter didnt want to do the
2nd cutting ;-( any ideas would be appreciated?


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## fetch33 (Jan 15, 2010)

Google search for hay auctions in your area.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

I've had some improvement just with hand broadcasting seed and top sowing. Not like plowing it up and starting over, but better than it was.

I can purchase grass seed direct from the grower for 25-30 cents a pound, compared to close to $2 from the farm store. Anyone near you grow grass seed?


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

All you need to do to get a better stand is snow seed some grass seed on the field. Go out the last snow in the spring and spread seed out over the snow, that way you can see where it lands and where you may need some more. When the snow melts it takes it down to the soil and it will start growing when it warms up. You may want to put some fertilizer of some kind on it also mostly P & K and not much N. Also if you have a source of clean chicken manure that would work great. > Thanks Marc


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Is the hay field fenced? You should be able to get a month of grazing off it after the last cutting. Two months in a good year.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

To take this a bit further......
With a fenced hayfield, you can graze a week between cuttings. This gives your pasture a chance to recover. You can also save pasture for winter. If there is grass under the snow the horses will find it. I once fed 11 horses here in Minnesota on winter graze and _one bale of hay a day_ 8 of the horses were thin killers that I bought in the fall. By spring they were all fat. This was a deep snow winter. If there is grass under the snow, they will find it. 

BTW, with a little work I was able to sell 7 of the 8 "killers" as saddle horses.

Of course the 8th one put me in the hospital..... LMAO!


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

Sell the horses? 

If the hay field was so exhausted last year that your cutter wouldn't even bother with a 2nd cutting and you don't have the resources to reseed it this year chances are this hay situation is not going to go away anytime soon. Seems to me like any other "fix" will only be a temporary bandaid, not a real cure to the problem.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Just throwing seed around is not going to help unless you are planting something that will make a good mix for hay. If you couldn't get your neighbors to make your second cutting because it wasn't worth it, this year it's going to be harder. You might talk to a neighbor that makes hay to feed his own animals and see if they would be interested in replanting. You will have to give them a larger share of the hay, and for a certain number of years, but you might find someone that is interested. With the cost of fuel and fertilizer going up, the farmers are going to have to get a larger share of the crop just to make expenses.

The cost of hay is going to go up, and I think many farmers that do it on shares will stop, unless they really need their share. Fuel prices are really going to hurt this year.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Molly Mckee said:


> The cost of hay is going to go up, and I think many farmers that do it on shares will stop, unless they really need their share. Fuel prices are really going to hurt this year.


Ummm, simple economics lesson here. If the price of hay goes up the farmer will be willing to absorb the extra costs.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Do you have a manure spreader? You can put your horses manure back on the field, will help a lot in being able to get a 2nd cutting of hay.


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## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

oregon woodsmok said:


> I've had some improvement just with hand broadcasting seed and top sowing. Not like plowing it up and starting over, but better than it was.
> 
> I can purchase grass seed direct from the grower for 25-30 cents a pound, compared to close to $2 from the farm store. Anyone near you grow grass seed?


This sounds good. I'll check into it!


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## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

tinknal said:


> Is the hay field fenced? You should be able to get a month of grazing off it after the last cutting. Two months in a good year.


No, unfortunately its not fenced ;-( I thought about putting a strand
of hot wire around it last fall but the deer are so thick I'm sure they 
would have it down before long!


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## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

springvalley said:


> All you need to do to get a better stand is snow seed some grass seed on the field. Go out the last snow in the spring and spread seed out over the snow, that way you can see where it lands and where you may need some more. When the snow melts it takes it down to the soil and it will start growing when it warms up. You may want to put some fertilizer of some kind on it also mostly P & K and not much N. Also if you have a source of clean chicken manure that would work great. > Thanks Marc


Thanks Marc! I definitely will check into this. Its kinda hard to figure 
when the last snow is around here though ;-)


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## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

olivehill said:


> Sell the horses?
> 
> If the hay field was so exhausted last year that your cutter wouldn't even bother with a 2nd cutting and you don't have the resources to reseed it this year chances are this hay situation is not going to go away anytime soon. Seems to me like any other "fix" will only be a temporary bandaid, not a real cure to the problem.


yea, it may come to this...my DW is definitely against this idea though.


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## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

bergere said:


> Do you have a manure spreader? You can put your horses manure back on the field, will help a lot in being able to get a 2nd cutting of hay.


we tried a little of this last fall but three horses only generate so much 
manure, and many of the neighbors have uses for theirs as well...but no,
I wish we did have a manure spreader.


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## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

Molly Mckee said:


> Just throwing seed around is not going to help unless you are planting something that will make a good mix for hay. If you couldn't get your neighbors to make your second cutting because it wasn't worth it, this year it's going to be harder. You might talk to a neighbor that makes hay to feed his own animals and see if they would be interested in replanting. You will have to give them a larger share of the hay, and for a certain number of years, but you might find someone that is interested. With the cost of fuel and fertilizer going up, the farmers are going to have to get a larger share of the crop just to make expenses.
> 
> The cost of hay is going to go up, and I think many farmers that do it on shares will stop, unless they really need their share. Fuel prices are really going to hurt this year.


yea, i'm in negotiations with a couple of neighbors about this. their wanting
to plant corn and just pay us for it and we can buy our own hay. may
wind up doing this since that will help the field in the long wrong...


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

If the hay stand is older, and has been cut a fair bit, the soil will have low nutrients probably. I would soil test. There is very little point of throwing seed out there on top, if your soil is depleted. For 1000 bucks, you could get some fertilizer out there and recharge the mined soil, and produce twice as much value in hay. The return on fertilizer is a strong return. Hay is a unique crop in that All or most of the growth is harvested, and unless you have a legume in the mix, the soil gets depleted of nutrients. You need to add back what you take away.

Depending on what type of grass is there, you should be able to get at least several tons an acre off of hay ground with proper fertility. Manure is fine, but as you said, it is limited. regular fertilizer will be fine. The grass has no idea whether the nutrient came from organic sources or not. lol

The thing would be to find a handy spreader etc. Maybe a neighbor farmer would help you out???


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

tinknal said:


> Ummm, simple economics lesson here. If the price of hay goes up the farmer will be willing to absorb the extra costs.


Simple economics lesson--farmers can't absorb much more cost or it will be costing them to make hay to sell you--and not make anything for their labor. We make over a hundred acres of alfalfa and planted grass hay, every trip over the field costs you so many gallons of gas or diesel. You do everything possible to save money while making top quality hay, but you can't not buy fuel. And if you fertilize, that's petroleum based as well. We had heavy yields last year, and good prices at the beginning of the year, but costs went up and profits weren't great. We are already talking about cutting back on the number of acres of hay we make because most of it is for sale. So are many others around here. When you feed it to your own animals you have another way to add value.Most people can only afford so much for hay, especially when it's for a hobby, no matter what they would like to do.


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## countryboy84 (Dec 8, 2010)

Since you are feed horses do what I do. Let the horses cut there own feed. Get a horse drawn mower and put those horses to work. If they are not drafts you will need to have a couple of teams broke to be able to do good work all day. It would take me about 3 days to cut 20 acres with my team but don't really cost anything since you are using what you are feeding. take the time to rake with the horses or a truck. I have pulled my rake with my truck a couple of times since I just now got a hitching cart to hook my rake to for the horses. Then put the hay in a mow. Very little money spent and you can cut when you want to.

If you are going to reseed look at native grasses over stuff like orchard grass or timothy. around here Indian grass will get you about 7000lbs to the acrea a year and switch grass is even more. This way you would be getting more bang out of the money you spend to reseed and fertilizer is not needed, just some times a little lime.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Molly Mckee said:


> Simple economics lesson--farmers can't absorb much more cost or it will be costing them to make hay to sell you--and not make anything for their labor. We make over a hundred acres of alfalfa and planted grass hay, every trip over the field costs you so many gallons of gas or diesel. You do everything possible to save money while making top quality hay, but you can't not buy fuel. And if you fertilize, that's petroleum based as well. We had heavy yields last year, and good prices at the beginning of the year, but costs went up and profits weren't great. We are already talking about cutting back on the number of acres of hay we make because most of it is for sale. So are many others around here. When you feed it to your own animals you have another way to add value.Most people can only afford so much for hay, especially when it's for a hobby, no matter what they would like to do.


And because a lot of farmers will be cutting down on hay production, hay will skyrocket, meaning good money for those who stayed in.


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## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

farmerDale said:


> If the hay stand is older, and has been cut a fair bit, the soil will have low nutrients probably. I would soil test. There is very little point of throwing seed out there on top, if your soil is depleted. For 1000 bucks, you could get some fertilizer out there and recharge the mined soil, and produce twice as much value in hay. The return on fertilizer is a strong return. Hay is a unique crop in that All or most of the growth is harvested, and unless you have a legume in the mix, the soil gets depleted of nutrients. You need to add back what you take away.
> 
> Depending on what type of grass is there, you should be able to get at least several tons an acre off of hay ground with proper fertility. Manure is fine, but as you said, it is limited. regular fertilizer will be fine. The grass has no idea whether the nutrient came from organic sources or not. lol
> 
> The thing would be to find a handy spreader etc. Maybe a neighbor farmer would help you out???


yea, hopefully I can save a grand really fast ;-) good information...thanks!


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## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

countryboy84 said:


> Since you are feed horses do what I do. Let the horses cut there own feed. Get a horse drawn mower and put those horses to work. If they are not drafts you will need to have a couple of teams broke to be able to do good work all day. It would take me about 3 days to cut 20 acres with my team but don't really cost anything since you are using what you are feeding. take the time to rake with the horses or a truck. I have pulled my rake with my truck a couple of times since I just now got a hitching cart to hook my rake to for the horses. Then put the hay in a mow. Very little money spent and you can cut when you want to.
> 
> If you are going to reseed look at native grasses over stuff like orchard grass or timothy. around here Indian grass will get you about 7000lbs to the acrea a year and switch grass is even more. This way you would be getting more bang out of the money you spend to reseed and fertilizer is not needed, just some times a little lime.


This would be awesome countryboy! Unfortunately, my three draft/ponies
are still "green broke" ;-(


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

pcwerk said:


> This would be awesome countryboy! Unfortunately, my three draft/ponies
> are still "green broke" ;-(


The right training would have them cutting hay in under a week.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

And actually haying is how a lot of people TRAIN draft horses. Hook them up to a rake, for example, and it's pretty hard to run away.


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## Lane Linnenkohl (Dec 20, 2007)

pcwerk said:


> This would be awesome countryboy! Unfortunately, my three draft/ponies
> are still "green broke" ;-(


In my experience, nothing breaks a "green broke" team like mowing hay.



> Most people can only afford so much for hay, especially when it's for a hobby, no matter what they would like to do.


From what I see, it's the hobby farmers that drive the price of hay up.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

pcwerk said:


> yea, hopefully I can save a grand really fast ;-) good information...thanks!


Yeah that is the tough part. Putting out the money in the first place. Especially if you don't have.  But off of 20 acres, you should get enough hay for your horses, plus a lot to sell, if the fertility is there. SO you can actually get thhis money back. It is more of a future suggestion. Easier said than done financially. I just think your stand must be lacking fertility without more input.
:cowboy:


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Can you go in halvsies with someone? Split each cutting with someone(s)? WOuld still be cheaper than buying your own. Pretty sure SOMEONE would go in with you just to know they will have hay this season. If you lived closer I would do it myself!


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Bought some beautiful Bermuda hay yesterday. Rectangular bales are about 130 pounds. Still $10.50/bale, so the price hasn't gone up since I last bought.


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## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

ErinP said:


> And actually haying is how a lot of people TRAIN draft horses. Hook them up to a rake, for example, and it's pretty hard to run away.


yea, this is a good idea! if I had the equipment this would be a great.
i'll look around and see if someone has that i can borrow ;-)


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## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

Rogo said:


> Bought some beautiful Bermuda hay yesterday. Rectangular bales are about 130 pounds. Still $10.50/bale, so the price hasn't gone up since I last bought.


we're paying 2.50 for a small square but decent quality...


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## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

beccachow said:


> Can you go in halvsies with someone? Split each cutting with someone(s)? WOuld still be cheaper than buying your own. Pretty sure SOMEONE would go in with you just to know they will have hay this season. If you lived closer I would do it myself!


i'm still lookin around and hope to find someone...problem is my regular
guy developed cancer a couple of years ago and hasnt been the same
since ;-( understandably so, of course...


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## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

Lane Linnenkohl said:


> In my experience, nothing breaks a "green broke" team like mowing hay.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I see, it's the hobby farmers that drive the price of hay up.


seems like its been 2.50 a small square bale up here for about 4 years now...


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

What about trying to find someone with chicken or turkey houses to spread their manure on your field. That stuff will really grow grass. 



> Depending on what type of grass is there, you should be able to get at least several tons an acre off of hay ground with proper fertility. Manure is fine, but as you said, it is limited. regular fertilizer will be fine. The grass has no idea whether the nutrient came from organic sources or not.


Mind you chem fertilizers will increase growth and certain nutrients, but decrease your minerals as they kill certain bacteria that chelate minerals for plant use. Manure increases them as they need organic material to grow.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

pcwerk said:


> i'm still lookin around and hope to find someone...problem is my regular
> guy developed cancer a couple of years ago and hasnt been the same
> since ;-( understandably so, of course...



Try Craig's List, post something at Tractor Supply or Southern States or any other feed store you have locally. , advertise in the paper.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Just wanted to point out that this isn't true. Plenty of busted-up hay rakes out there to prove it. 



ErinP said:


> Hook them up to a rake, for example, and it's pretty hard to run away.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

The equipment for doing all that horse draw work would be enough to buy a lot of hay, wouldn't it? 

I would LOVE to cut my own hay with my fat horses, but getting started would be costly and hard to find everything.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

At $2.50 a bale? Yep. That's dirt cheap, I pay $7.00/bale for regular squares of fertilized coastal, although some producers are now down to $5.50.


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## [email protected] (Sep 30, 2005)

Depending on what you can get an acre for rent might just be best to rent it out and let them plant corn. If you can get $100 per acre that would be enough to buy 800 bales of hay if I did the math right. 
Plus you can give the field a rest and save up to reseed in a few years.


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## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Depending on what you can get an acre for rent might just be best to rent it out and let them plant corn. If you can get $100 per acre that would be enough to buy 800 bales of hay if I did the math right.
> Plus you can give the field a rest and save up to reseed in a few years.


yes, this is what we're leaning toward. thanks again to all for such 
good advice!


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## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

southerngurl said:


> The equipment for doing all that horse draw work would be enough to buy a lot of hay, wouldn't it?
> 
> I would LOVE to cut my own hay with my fat horses, but getting started would be costly and hard to find everything.


zactly what i was thinkin...


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## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

beccachow said:


> Try Craig's List, post something at Tractor Supply or Southern States or any other feed store you have locally. , advertise in the paper.


Thanks Becky! Will do ;-)


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

southerngurl said:


> The equipment for doing all that horse draw work would be enough to buy a lot of hay, wouldn't it?
> 
> I would LOVE to cut my own hay with my fat horses, but getting started would be costly and hard to find everything.


Some folks are in a better area for that stuff than others. I know that, over here, horsedrawn equipment still in useable or rebuildable condition is scarcer than hen's teeth. Meanwhile, people in other parts of the country go on about how there's a working side delivery rake in every hedgerow and a sulky plow in every cowshed, practically free for the asking. 

Over here, buying just a team's worth of harness and a 2-horse mower would set you back $3000 to $5000.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

jennigrey said:


> Just wanted to point out that this isn't true. Plenty of busted-up hay rakes out there to prove it.


Yup. A neighbor logs with drafts _every day_, but when he hooked up his team to a rake one of the horses freaked and ran over him with it. This was not a green broke team, they were green to farm equipment. He's an older man and is lucky he wasn't seriously hurt.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Depending on what you can get an acre for rent might just be best to rent it out and let them plant corn. If you can get $100 per acre that would be enough to buy 800 bales of hay if I did the math right.
> Plus you can give the field a rest and save up to reseed in a few years.


I'm confused. How is growing corn letting the land _rest_?


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

If someone were to grow corn on that land, it wouldn't rest, but would get some much needed fertility added, (unless it was farmed "organically"), along with a rotation break. I had not noticed this suggestion of renting it out for a year or two. i think it is a great idea, and land rent would be a healthy income which could be used for seed, fertilizer, and or hay purchases during the rotation years.

Our land has been getting "chemical fertilizers" for 80 years. I have yet to see a nutrient imbalance. Our soil is happy. The plants and soil know not where the nutrients came from, once in the soil, the N is N, the P is P, k is k, s is s, and so on.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

You can't plant alfalfa over alfalfa in a field that had alfalfa planted on it. The mature plants give off a chemical that kills the young ones. They are several new types of seed that you can over plant with but they are really expensive. If you don't have a good stand of alfalfa, timothy , or a good planted grass you will have a hard time finding anyone to make your hay on shares. Why don't you talk to the county agent or the local seed company about what the best way to develop a good stand of hay on your property. It won't cost you anything and it will make it much easier to get the hay made on shares, or even have good pasture.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

jennigrey said:


> Just wanted to point out that this isn't true. Plenty of busted-up hay rakes out there to prove it.


Oh I sure wouldn't say it was impossible. lol I said it was hard. 

So far as getting run over with a rake, that can happen with ANY load they're hauling. 
Nothing is fail-safe, guys. :shrug:


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## carasel (Dec 31, 2009)

Check with your county ag agent. They can give you area specific advice. Mines been helpful to me.
do a search on this site for redoing your pasture. It's mainly bigger hay producers. Still a lot of useful info. http://www.haytalk.com
Give and take on spreading fresh horse manure. Some of the seeds you get may not be wanted. If you can get some old stuff that's broken down.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

ErinP said:


> Oh I sure wouldn't say it was impossible. lol I said it was hard.
> 
> So far as getting run over with a rake, that can happen with ANY load they're hauling.
> Nothing is fail-safe, guys. :shrug:


You advocated "And actually haying is how a lot of people TRAIN draft horses. Hook them up to a rake, for example, and it's pretty hard to run away." 

No, it's not hard for a team to run away with a rake like you indicated. The team I posted about was a dead broke logging team, a team used every day in the woods, a team broke to pull logs, and one of them freaked over a hay rake. This man has logged with drafts for a living for well over 30 years. To blithely state "hook 'em up" is dangerous at best.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Oh for Pete's sake... 

I guess I'm assuming most people aren't morons.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

ErinP said:


> Oh for Pete's sake...
> 
> I guess I'm assuming most people aren't morons.


It's difficult to ascertain the level of someone's horsemanship via the internet. Safety first is my motto, your milage may vary.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

It isn't hard at all for them to run away with a hay rake. It isn't something you hook to for training. 

It _is_ hard for them to run away (for long) while hitched to a forecart with a couple of loader tires chained on behind. It _is_ hard for them to run away (for long) while hitched in chest-deep snow. There are things to hitch to and conditions under which you can hitch that will make it "hard to run away" but a hay rake isn't anything like that. A hay rake doesn't provide much resistance. In fact, mowing is harder work.

Mowers and side-delivery rakes are pretty spooky stuff - they make a snickety snickety sound that just makes a horse's hide crawl right up his back the first time he hears something like that.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

southerngurl said:


> I'm confused. How is growing corn letting the land _rest_?


Corn is a heavy feeder. It wouldn't be a rest. I'm not sure how that could be asserted. Maybe if the renter spreader manure first and then, after the harvest, chopped the stalks and left the mulch on the field. Most of the ear corn harvested in this region leaves the field, stalk and all. Doesn't give anything back at all.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

jennigrey said:


> It isn't hard at all for them to run away with a hay rake. It isn't something you hook to for training.
> 
> It _is_ hard for them to run away (for long) while hitched to a forecart with a couple of loader tires chained on behind. It _is_ hard for them to run away (for long) while hitched in chest-deep snow. There are things to hitch to and conditions under which you can hitch that will make it "hard to run away" but a hay rake isn't anything like that. A hay rake doesn't provide much resistance. In fact, mowing is harder work.
> 
> Mowers and side-delivery rakes are pretty spooky stuff - they make a snickety snickety sound that just makes a horse's hide crawl right up his back the first time he hears something like that.


That's what our neighbor said, jennigrey it was the sound that spooked one of the horses. The other horse stood or the accident would have been much worse. I can't imagine if both horses had been green...


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

If I remember correctly, it was a hay rake that my grandpa said a team of mules were pulling when he saw them take off and go through two fences.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Deep snow is sure no problem in my part of the world right now and nothing is too energetic at this temperature but we always started driving ours with a stoneboat loaded with a horse appropriate amount of stones.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

I guess I hadn't even thought about wheel rakes or side delivery. 

I was talking DUMP rakes since that's all I've ever seen a team hooked to. 
You drop it all the way, and they run for about 50 feet, maybe before your rake is full. And getting fuller. And fuller. lol

So far as giving people too much credit, I think it's a fairly safe assumption that if they have a green team, a harness, and horse-drawn equipment to hook them to, they _probably_ know more than to just hook up and hope for the best...


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Yeah, a simple dump rake is a lot safer and quieter than a side-delivery. We'll have to agree to disagree on it being something that is hard to run away with, though. I'm okay with that. :thumb:

As far as treading lightly where working-horse advice is concerned.... People who haven't done much in the way of driving often do not understand how terribly dangerous it can be; how, unlike a saddle horse runaway, the harnessed horse runaway doesn't come to a natural conclusion until everything is broken, splinitered, torn, shredded or greviously injured.

I've known and known _of_ altogether too many people who tried to enter the workhorse world in a vacuum and had it go very badly for them. Operating on their own, without any books, experience or mentor, they didn't know enough to know what they _didn't_ know (if that makes any sense). Not until their first runaway. Only then did they realize that there is a lot more to harnessing and hitching safely than they'd guessed. Most of the people at the clinics I help put on have either 1.) never hitched or 2.) have already had one runaway and realized they needed some help.

So, yeah, I know that I do get knee-jerk-y when people start suggesting that someone might ought to take up working horses from scratch to get a particular job done. It's different if the person is approaching it from the angle of wanting to learn how to drive and work horses. The mindset is different and it is obvious that they realize there is an entire skillset to be acquired. But when someone comes at it with the goal of "logging my 20 acres" or "giving hay rides at the church" or "making my own hay", I don't like to assume that they realize the knowledge gap between them and their goal.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I agree entirely, jennigrey. I am an experienced _riding_ horse person, I know enough about drafts and horse drawn implements to get myself in deep trouble... If my neighbor the logger can have problems with all his experience a novice like me could be easily killed.


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