# Smaller centre fires for deer hunting



## moonwolf (Sep 20, 2004)

Curious as to how many would use .22-250 or .223
for killing deer?


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

I know guys who do, but I ain't one of them.

My favorite small-caliber, low-recoil cartridge for deer is the .257 Roberts.


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## mustangglp (Jul 7, 2015)

I've shot deer and pigs with my 22.250 using Speer 60 grain semi spritzers and they go right down. I wouldn't take 400 yard shot's but under 250 yards or so it good to go. We black tails which are smaller then white tails. Make sure you use strong bullets .


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## joejeep92 (Oct 11, 2010)

Will it kill a deer? Sure! 22 LR will kill a deer. Will it kill a deer with a marginal shot due to your fault or poor bullet performance? There is where we hit a gray area. I have shot truckloads of deer with a 243 and I limit myself to 250 yards and broadside or if close enough, head shots. I know, head shots are not recommended but hey, no meat wasted and dead right there.


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## kycrawler (Sep 18, 2011)

ive used 223 works fine as long as you do your part and use a decent bullet I have a weatherby vanguard compact that is a dream to carry and shoot


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

If you load your own and have a 1:10 twist or faster slow it down and load up some 70 grain bullets. 1:12 or slower stay around 55-60 and keep them around 3600-3700fps and neck shoot them. Not a whole lot if any room for error. Do your part and learn the rifle and YOUR capabilities and make a decision at that point.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Up here we can not use any caliber under .23, so a deer rifle starts at a .243 generally. I agree with the regulation in this case. Too many inexperienced hunters would be packing marginal weapons without this rule.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

I use my 22-250 on my land here in Texas but I only have a 60 yard shot max where I hunt so I usually tote a 20 or 12 gauge with slugs! I agree with that regulation, but I know my abilities and rifle. Lot and lots of practice!


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

some of the old timers around where I hunt used to swear by 222 it is a heavy Scandinavian settlement area and 222 was very popular with many of them , but they weren't ones to waste and ounce of meat or take bad shots generally all neck shots 

if 222 will do it 223 should . can't say I have tried it though the area went shotgun only many years ago , I did see a guy with a 223 pistol last year he said it worked well and he was walking out to get the truck to go get the deer he shot.


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## Veedog (May 4, 2015)

It's all in the right bullet and shot placement. Use a monocore like a Barnes tsx, or a bonded bullet. Bullets have come a long way. Just don't use varmint type bullets that won't penetrate deep before blowing up. The 2 calibers you mentioned are fine, but it depends on the twist rate of the barrel. The all copper bullets are longer than a lead type bullet. And the rifling depends on the bullet length more than anything. Most older rifles were 12 or 14 twist in those 2 calibers. But newer rifles have gone to faster twists for the heavier for caliber bullets that people seem to prefer nowadays. Another thing that could limit you is if the .223 is a magazine fed rifle. You are stuck to 2.26" oal pretty much. What are your options in the 2 rifles, and what type of hunting do you usually encounter? And do you have any other options? But to be specific, I wouldn't hesitate to hunt with either of those 2 calibers with the right bullet of course.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

I have a 220 swift which many long ago gun writers claimed was good for deer hunting yet the swift has lost a lot of following. Many have recently claimed in part due to the crappy performance on deer after all the old writers claiming other wise.
I love my swift and the performance on varmints from coyotes to crows but I would not nor will I ever use it to hunt deer with even though being a hand loader can use any bullet I can buy. 
If I want a light weight bullet in a small bore rifle to deer hunt I will take my 243 every time. But much prefer my 7 mm08 in our rifle zone and the 20ga 870 slugger or a ML, in the shot gun, ML zone.

I've seen a lot of people who only maybe shoot a half box (10 rounds) a year for practice and save the other 10 for hunting. Many times end up getting a call to go help track a deer shot with a 308 by them and they made a crappy hit. 

 Al


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

.25 caliber is the smallest you can use here in WV, and I feel that's a good limit... Perfect reason to use my 6.5mm... (.255)


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

simi-steading said:


> .25 caliber is the smallest you can use here in WV, and I feel that's a good limit... Perfect reason to use my 6.5mm... (.255)



don't you mean .264 for 6.5mm


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

my theory is any gun that will turn a yotes innards to blood jelly will take a white tail , as a white tails ribs are just not that thick , but the hunter needs to avoid the shoulder with some of these bullets , the other thing that may cause issue is even though a clean kill may be made if there is not a good exit hole the blood trail may be hard to follow or nearly non existent the deer only went 50 or a hundred yards but many will not look that far if they see no blood 

the biggest thing that the "big enough"guns have is that they will generally provide an exit hole for a blood trail even with a less than good shot 

I have seen some miserable shots and even with a 1 oz 72cal slug that passes clear though leaving a 3/4 inch hole can make for a difficult or nearly impossible to follow blood trail that sometimes dries up after a while

people like to blame equipment it is easier than taking responsibility for so many so there are many that will tell you you need some sort of magnum or super mag for deer


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

hhhmm.. if you convert 6.5mm ti inches, that's .255... but I guess being a slug, it can be a different size..


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

simi-steading said:


> hhhmm.. if you convert 6.5mm ti inches, that's .255... but I guess being a slug, it can be a different size..


some measure groove and some measure the lands , Hornady sells a 6.5 that is .264 and a fat 6.5 that is .267

270 is taken from the lands , 277 is the size of the projectile 

7.62x51 uses a .308 projectile but 7.62x39 and 7.62x54r are .311 projectiles 

it just is


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

As a lot of people have already stated you CAN kill a deer with any firearm. I had an uncle who was known to take deer with a 22 short. But he knew his weapon and his limitations. FYI, He used it because it was very quite and when you were hunting out of season you didn't want to make much noise. 

I think the bigger question would be why limit yourself? I'm not saying you should lug a .375 H&H over hill and dale after a whitetail deer but there are going to be times when you don't have that perfect shot. That means you might have to do w/o meat in your freezer because you had to pass up the shot or because your bullet didn't hit the vitals.

Of course I've always been a "hit em with a bowling ball" type.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

a lot of people are recoil sensitive people with bad shoulders small women and young kids as young as 10 years old can legally hunt here when on a mentored hunt

Wisconsin requires a minimum of a 22 caliber center fire be used for deer 

a 308 or 30-06 is really just to much for most of them a 223 or 243 with managed recoil rounds is about what most can handle


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

As I said, I'm a big fan of the .257 Roberts, the original Mildcat.

Very little recoil, not too much muzzle blast and a good 117g bullet seems to work well. Over the years, we've had very good luck with the caliber.


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## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> a lot of people are recoil sensitive people with bad shoulders small women and young kids as young as 10 years old can legally hunt here when on a mentored hunt
> 
> Wisconsin requires a minimum of a 22 caliber center fire be used for deer
> 
> a 308 or 30-06 is really just to much for most of them a 223 or 243 with managed recoil rounds is about what most can handle


There are alot of rounds out there that can take deer sized game with softer recoil (i.e. 6.5 x 55, 7 x 57, or 7-08). A gun buyer should consult a cartridge recoil chart before searching for a new (to them) gun


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

diamondtim said:


> There are alot of rounds out there that can take deer sized game with softer recoil (i.e. 6.5 x 55, 7 x 57, or 7-08). A gun buyer should consult a cartridge recoil chart before searching for a new (to them) gun


Too many people get caught up in the loudenboomer stuff printed in the gun mags or the talk slung around the hunting camp.

Facts are, all of the cartridges you name are quite good and will kill deer at distances farther than most folks can shoot well, under field conditions.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

diamondtim said:


> There are alot of rounds out there that can take deer sized game with softer recoil (i.e. 6.5 x 55, 7 x 57, or 7-08). A gun buyer should consult a cartridge recoil chart before searching for a new (to them) gun


http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

here is the chart , if you look at it's numbers a 7x57 with 145gr bullet has 3 times the recoil of a 223 with 62gr bullet as does 6.5x55 and 7mm-08 and the test gun for the 7x57 test gun was 1.5 pounds heavier the 6.5x55 is a pound heavier 

a savage XP youth weighs in at 6.8 pounds it is available in 223 , 243 and 7mm-08 this is in line with most of the youth guns currently available 

I was also talking with the neighbor she has been using a 223wssm that her dad had bought her , she said it did very well for deer they limit shots to around a hundred yards

it is a comparable round to 22-250 in performance , she did say it is very hard and expensive to find ammo for as it never really took off as the popular cartridge her dad thought it would be a decade ago.

in my opinion it is a better idea to limit the distance of the shot for a youth and let them use he lighter recoiling cartridge

I think it is better to have them be a good shot at 50 yards with a light recoiling rifle that they were able to comfortably practice and be confident in the shot they need to make , than develop a flinch and flinch off target with a bigger gun.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

there are a bunch of cartridges that would work well but are harder to find a gun especially a youth sized gun in 

6.8spc in a semi auto should be a real easy recoiling round the same with the 44mag in a semi auto unfortunately ruger stopped making the deerfeild carbine 

257 roberts looks reasonable 
7x30 waters in a slightly heavier gun would be a good match
357 in a rifle would be a nice youth gun
as would 45 colt or 44-40 the 44-40 is a somewhat dead cartridge but a 44mag with specials or lighter load would be an equivalent 


here is a nice article about the subject http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifles_small_hunters.htm

given the current availability of rifles and ammo I would would choose the 243 and try the hornady managed recoil ammo it steps the velocity down a bit but for a hundred yards should still be just fine , this gives the option to add a longer recoil pad and have a rifle that the young person can grow with and use for a lifetime 

the 7mm-08 with managed recoil or hand loads wold be another option 

a cousin hunted with a mini-30 and took a lot of deer , 7.62x39 is a decent cartridge and a soft shooter from an auto

his dad is a big 243 fan and has taken near a hundred deer with the 243 and swears by the cartridge (you can add up a lot of deer in a hurry shooting damage control for the big orchards)


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

As someone said earlier, it's all about shot placement and bullet construction.

The right bullet from a .223 in the right spot = dead deer.

Personally, I would only let a person I consider to be an expert hunt deer on my property with a 22 centerfire of any ilk. Not for beginners...ok for cool hand Luke.


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## Texaspredatorhu (Sep 15, 2015)

What you consider an expert might be considered a greenhorn to someone else! I know of very little recoil from any 22 cal center fire. Most of the 6-7mm non magnums are pretty fair too. Recoil won't bother you in the field anyway, it will on the bench but 1 or maybe 2 shots in the field with adrenaline m, not a factor worth bringing up. Should not matter the age of the hunter, if they are taught correctly they already understand shot placement no matter the distance or conditions, now compensating for adrenaline in a youth a 7mm-08 is a good idea to me just in case. But.....it's not a good excuse!


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## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

tarbe said:


> As someone said earlier, it's all about shot placement and bullet construction.
> 
> The right bullet from a .223 in the right spot = dead deer.
> 
> Personally, I would only let a person I consider to be an expert hunt deer on my property with a 22 centerfire of any ilk. Not for beginners...ok for cool hand Luke.


I agree. If its a choice between recoil and a humane kill, I'd go for the humane kill. Recoil can be dealt with using a Past Recoil Shield under the shooters coat.


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## Knight9 (Dec 29, 2012)

Smallest caliber we can use in Alberta is .243 and typically this would be limited to youth or smaller framed folks who are sensitive to recoil.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Taken many deer with 22-250 over 200 yards. Drop every time. Just gotta know where to put it. To many guys knock the smaller calibers. I've dropped them at 100 yards with 22 mag. Now for inexperienced hunters I would go 243 until your settled in placement on a live animal in action.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

there may be a new option , we will have to see if anyone wil factory chamber a gun in 25-45

it is a 223 case necked up to accept a .257 bullet and from a 20 inch barrel it is cooking right along at around 3k http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2014/4/17/the-25-45-sharps-a-new-old-cartridge/


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## Veedog (May 4, 2015)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> there may be a new option , we will have to see if anyone wil factory chamber a gun in 25-45
> 
> it is a 223 case necked up to accept a .257 bullet and from a 20 inch barrel it is cooking right along at around 3k http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2014/4/17/the-25-45-sharps-a-new-old-cartridge/


While that is an interesting idea, I prefer the 6x45 if I were to go that route. Just because the bullet selection in 6mm. But any cat based on the 5.56 case will at least keep you in cheap brass. I recently built a 6x6.8 ar15 that I'm looking to try this year. It's just a 6.8spc2 case necked down to 6mm. ---- near 243 speeds in an ar15 size rifle. It thrives on 90 grain and under bullets. A 58 grain vmax at 3500 is what a friend shoots on coyotes, with 22" barrel. I heard that and had to research and build one. I don't like the ar10 because it's to huge. I'm always trying to pack more into the ar15.


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## adimice (Dec 14, 2014)

alleyyooper said:


> I have a 220 swift which many long ago gun writers claimed was good for deer hunting yet the swift has lost a lot of following. Many have recently claimed in part due to the crappy performance on deer after all the old writers claiming other wise.
> I love my swift and the performance on varmints from coyotes to crows but I would not nor will I ever use it to hunt deer with even though being a hand loader can use any bullet I can buy.
> If I want a light weight bullet in a small bore rifle to deer hunt I will take my 243 every time. But much prefer my 7 mm08 in our rifle zone and the 20ga 870 slugger or a ML, in the shot gun, ML zone.
> 
> ...


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Veedog said:


> While that is an interesting idea, I prefer the 6x45 if I were to go that route. Just because the bullet selection in 6mm. But any cat based on the 5.56 case will at least keep you in cheap brass. I recently built a 6x6.8 ar15 that I'm looking to try this year. It's just a 6.8spc2 case necked down to 6mm. ---- near 243 speeds in an ar15 size rifle. It thrives on 90 grain and under bullets. A 58 grain vmax at 3500 is what a friend shoots on coyotes, with 22" barrel. I heard that and had to research and build one. I don't like the ar10 because it's to huge. I'm always trying to pack more into the ar15.



6x45 is a fine cartridge but still not legal to hunt deer in some states the 25 cal minimum states that is a fair part of the reason for the 25x45 round 

6mm ppc would be another interesting round a 7.62x39 necked down to 6mm they are supposed to be some very fine bench rest accurate rounds also 

I think you will continue to see powders that are developed to do just what your talking about maximize a AR with short cartridges with 223 to 308 cal bullets at max velocity with pressure under 58k psi very dense and slower burning


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## Silvercreek Farmer (Oct 13, 2005)

If it was all I had, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Deer around here aren't that much bigger than the yotes anyway. Just no FMJ or varmint bullets (both probably why it is not considered to be a good deer cartridge). I don't like picking bits of lead and copper out of my meat, either. As it is, I use a 30-06 down loaded to 1800 fps (170gr cast) and it seems to work just fine inside 150 yards. I always aim for a double lunger, they never go much over 50 yards. Meat damage is minimal but full pass throughs are routine. Recoil is about the same as a .223, but much less muzzle blast. My grandfather shot a deer with a 22-250 when they were still pretty new on the scene. Pretty sure he used a varmint bullet. He said it killed it on the spot, but ruined a ton of meat (chest shot).


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Silvercreek Farmer said:


> If it was all I had, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Deer around here aren't that much bigger than the yotes anyway. Just no FMJ or varmint bullets (both probably why it is not considered to be a good deer cartridge). I don't like picking bits of lead and copper out of my meat, either. As it is, I use a 30-06 down loaded to 1800 fps (170gr cast) and it seems to work just fine inside 150 yards. I always aim for a double lunger, they never go much over 50 yards. Meat damage is minimal but full pass throughs are routine. Recoil is about the same as a .223, but much less muzzle blast. My grandfather shot a deer with a 22-250 when they were still pretty new on the scene. Pretty sure he used a varmint bullet. He said it killed it on the spot, but ruined a ton of meat (chest shot).


My son bagged a couple deer this past weekend for the youth hunt. He wanted to use the 30-06. He is 12 and small framed right now. Years ago I used the Remington managed recoil 06 for my wife to hunt. They worked great. She took a lot of deer and the recoil greatly reduced. Problem is you cant find them anymore. So I went to the shop and found Hornady custom lite 06. Man what a bullet. Shot hole for hole at 100 yards and felt like a lightly loaded 243. My son barely moved when he shot it. One of the deer we took was about 180 yards. Bullet was dead on, passed through and left a major hole. I'll never use anything else out of it again. I would recommend to anybody.


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## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

What about a SKS or Saiga using the 7.62x39? Soft shooting gun and putting a .30 cal hole into the animal.


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