# ***** wont let male tie (graphic)



## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

I will start by giving you a brief introduction, before explaining my dilemma. My family and I show and breed CKC Spaniels. All breeding dogs and bitches are OFA'ed for hearts and eyes. The stud is scanned SM Clear, is a product of our own breedings. He is proven, and is over the age of 3. He has many healthy litters, and is AKC Championed.
The female is almost 3 years old, is healthy, and is having her 4th visable heat. She has what the heart specalist referred to as an "Exceptional" heart. Which is covitted in the breed. So this is why we are breeding them. 
That being said, we have introduced them on a daily basis starting on day 4 of the heat, and let nature take it's coarse. On or about day 10 she began to flag, and he took intense intrest in her. Both were very willing participants.
However, days 10 11 and 12 passed and they were never able to tie. They mated intensly, and he tied outside of her once.
He is an excellent stud, and his ability is not in question. She has never been bred before.
We have never had this issue before. Upon examination, it seemed that perhaps she was not large enough (her vulva) to accomidate the males penis. Is this something anyone here has experienced?
I did an AI on the 11th day while she was very receptive.
Overall body size, she is a rather large *****. (but not over weight) Is it possible she didn't swell enough? If so, then why? Is it possible her vulva is just too small? It also seems to me that perhaps her vulva is pointed more downward than backward (if that makes sense)? 
You experienced breeders out there, any ideas?
Thanks
Christina


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## lasgsd (Aug 9, 2004)

I would take the ***** to the vet and have them check for a recessed vulva (means it's inverted).

It could be the reason why they couldn't tie and, if it's bad enough, could mean the ***** has to have a c-section in order to whelp the puppies safely.


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## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

She has been to the vet for a pre-mating exam. It does not look like the pictures on-line for that. It looks normal, just maybe saggy, or droopy? LOL
I did an AI on day 11 just as a back up. I am hoping it takes. We have put so much into this. I just prefer to do things the good old fashioned way. Wondering if anyone else has had a ***** that wouldn't tie. Thanks for the info. It was educational!


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

Yes there can be anatomical differences, and some girls swell more than others. Funny, I try to do natural breedings to back up my AI's, not vice versa. I always AI, its just easier and more controllable. I've had girls that just didn't like the stud, or no matter what they did it just didn't work out. I've never relied on natural breedings.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Honorine said:


> I've had girls that just didn't like the stud, or no matter what they did it just didn't work out. I've never relied on natural breedings.


This is why I *always *go with surgical AI....97% success rate


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## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

Bluemoon- I don't know too much about surgical AI. Isn't that a bit invasive? Do you have a low success rate with traditional AI?
Honorine- I did the AI because I did not want to wait and see, and miss out on this heat. It is really good timing for us to have her gestating. I have actually never performed and AI before. We have never had a natural breeding not work. 

If this AI takes, I might do them more often, as it was fairly simple. Outside of the fact that the Dog was not thrilled about being collected, the rest of it was cake. I was pleasantly surprised. I actually designed my own inseminator, as I could not find something that I liked, and did not have time to order one on-line. 
I was rather impressed with myself (LOL)


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

chma4,

I work with a great repro vet.... my breed doesn't cycle regularly and they "miss" a lot when they are bred by any method. IIRC success rate overall is like 80% for natural breeding, 90% for AI and 97% for surgical AI. 

When you've spent $1,000 to have semen shipped over from Europe, $1200 on the stud fee, and around $800 on progesterone tests/surgical AI/other related expenses, BELIEVE ME, you want that breeding to have the highest possible success rate! I also don't breed that often, so when I do I really want it to take.

My vet only charges about $100 more to do the surgical AI than he does to do traditional AI, and he says that with surgical AI not only is the overall success rate higher but statistically they also have 1 more pup. So I spend a hundred extra, have a higher chance that the breeding will take to begin with, and statistically I get one more pup too. 

Its not that invasive, usually my bitches come home with maybe 2-3 sutures from the procedure. Of course its more invasive than other methods, but again to me in my program its worth it.


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

AI with dogs is really simple, just a few species specific rules, just have to remember that their not humans and they don't work exactly the same way. I happen to teach other breeders to AI. Its a really good skill to have, it amazes me how many breeders rely on natural breedings alone, or take them to a vet to AI. I use baby bottle bags and shortened cattle AI tubes and regular syringes. Some supply places do sell a canine AI kit. Your stud dog may become more relaxed with time. One of my boys starts dancing whenever me sees me put the blue gloves on and pick up a bag. He's a hoot and I've trained him well.


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## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

Well, any advice is always appreciated Honorine. Your species specific info would be very helpful. I am always up for learning new things!


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

Just because she is on day 10, 11, etc does not mean she is ready. She may flag and stand, but that means nothing- some gals just like it  I have had bitches stand for 2 weeks solid! Chances are she is not ready if you cannot insert a finger easily. Take her to the vet and get smears done...they have to be done every day to watch the progression so you know if she is coming to ovulation or leaving it. If you already missed it, at least you will know soon, but I would bet she has not ovulated yet. Could also be (common in young bitches) that she is having a split season. That would mean this season is not fertile, but next time she comes in - in a few weeks...she will be. No way to know without smears or progesterone testing (which is more expensive, but at least you can pin-point the breeding date with accuaracy.


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

If this is a first time stud, I would not use AI- especially with not knowing where the ***** is at via smears or progesterone. Even with a seasoned stud, I don't waste my time doing an AI until I have done a smear. If you do it with a first timer it will be difficult and very aggravating trying to get him to tie with a ***** in the future. I made that mistake once. The boy would go through the motions and then turn to me like- come on mom! AND any time he saw a rubber glove he would really get excited!


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## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

No, as I stated above, he is a seasoned stud. Thank you for the advice Willowynd


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