# How big must a survival garden be.



## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

I don't feel there is much time left to get ready so I really don't feel comfortable taking the time to work up what my family garden should be.
What size should a four person garden be to provide all produce needed for one year.
What all should be in the garden. Not just types of produce but also specific varieties and how much of each. Open pollinated so also need to keep cross pollination from occurring. I can do 2 plots instead of one if necessary. They would be about 800 feet apart. Have already decided to just do a paste tomato. They taste ok fresh and my kids love spaghetti. Am willing to go with just one variety of each type to keep it simple.
How much wheat should be planted to bring in enough for one year and if you had to make do with just one type which would it be? Hard white, red, soft white or red?
If things are ok next year I can make adjustments but this is an exercise in make it ready now. I'm sure I'm not the only person feeling an edge of desperation and this is my first serious garden in over 30 years. Been off the farm too long. I figure there are quite a few lurkers around who would find this immensely helpful too.


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## Limon (Aug 25, 2010)

Unfortunately, there's no pat answer that works for everyone. The quality of your soil is going to be a big factor in how productive your garden is. The length of your growing season also affects how much you can grow. Someone in a longer growing season with better soil will get a heck of a lot more produce out of the same size plot.

Plant what you eat. It doesn't do any good to waste time and resources growing vegetables no one in your family will eat. As for what variety to grow, ask people in your specific area. Different varieties do better in different parts of the county. Local gardening clubs, the extension office, other gardeners and garden centers should be able to give you a clue to which ones do well in your area.

Do you have the equipment necessary to harvest, thresh and grind wheat? If you've never done it by hand before, it is very labor-intensive. If you have a local seller, wheat is cheap to buy and stores a very, very long time if packed properly. 

Not to be discouraging, but a big mistake a lot of new gardeners make is starting out too big. They get overwhelmed, can't keep up with it, and give up. Personally, I think you'd be better off starting on a smaller, quality garden. Take the time to get your beds in good shape and then add on each year. It'll take longer, but you'll get more out of your time and effort.


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## Terrco (Oct 17, 2006)

We ordered this book at Amazon. It has excellent storage guides, and numerous ideas.
Example:
Page 46: Suggested One Year Food Supply:
Wheat
Adult Male: 200 Lbs
Adult Female: 150 Lbs
Children (per child)
Age 1-3: 60 Lbs
Age 4-6: 100 Lbs
Age 7-9: 150 Lbs
Age 10-12: 190 Lbs
Age 13-15: 200 Lbs 

Hope this helps.
http://www.amazon.com/Food-Storage-...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1297458571&sr=1-1


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I started out with 1.5 acres and I've pared it down over the past 5 years to just about a quarter acre. Between off-farm work and all my other time-sinks, that's about all I can manage. I supplement that with livestock, fruit trees, and wild game. If the SHTF then I could expand back out until I reached whatever I felt was comfortable since my time would be freed up considerably.

Start small and grow bigger. That's my advice. If you can't tend each plant significantly then your yields drop. Ironically, I've NEVER gotten as high of per plant yields as when I was planting in small raised beds and containers. 

If you're going to manage heirloom varieties and such then that adds to the complexity quite a bit unless you've got the distance to separate them. All that time fidgeting with blossoms means some other plants are being overtaken with weeds somewhere.

I know you're only asking about gardens, but I highly suggest some form of small livestock as well, such as chickens or rabbits. They are very easy to tend (around here they're tended by the smaller children) and can provide a lot of protein supplements for a smaller garden.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

I've always had good returns growing potatoes. They are full of protein, tolerate all sorts of conditions ( except blight ), and generally produce alot in a smaller amount of space.

According to my research, an average yield on an acre of potatoes is around 20,000 pounds (that is under conditions of professional growers using every advantage). In very small plots of around 20x20, I have gotten soooo many potatoes I would give half of them away and still eat potatoes all year.

There are things to watch out for with potatoes, proper rotation is key, and you can get skunked out of your whole crop by the late blight if your unlucky/unprepared. But over all, I feel like with potatoes and beans and a few other things I can get by with 1/4 acre.


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## Wild Diamond (Mar 11, 2008)

Some time ago I ran across this very detailed garden planner. It has a chart that lists, for a small number of vegetables, what you would need to plant, put aside, etc. for a family of four for a year. It suggests how many quarts, garden row feet, and number of seeds per 100 row feet would be needed. This is a very good place to start. It assumes that for a number of days you would eat fresh from the garden.

http://grannymillerblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/garden-planner-for-home-food.html


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

http://www.lsuagcenter.com/en/lawn_...getables/Expected+Vegetable+Garden+Yields.htm

Here's a list of expected yield amounts of common garden vegetables but it really can only be determined by you/ your climate/ effort you put in/ weather the current year.

I store 400 lbs of wheat per person. 100 lbs of sugar. 100 lbs of rice. I don't have the equipment to grow or harvest my own. If what i have stored runs out - hopefully, I will have found another source by then.


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

Ernie said:


> I started out with 1.5 acres and I've pared it down over the past 5 years to just about a quarter acre. Between off-farm work and all my other time-sinks, that's about all I can manage. I supplement that with livestock, fruit trees, and wild game. If the SHTF then I could expand back out until I reached whatever I felt was comfortable since my time would be freed up considerably.
> 
> Start small and grow bigger. That's my advice. If you can't tend each plant significantly then your yields drop. Ironically, I've NEVER gotten as high of per plant yields as when I was planting in small raised beds and containers.
> 
> ...


I agree. Chickens are very easy to raise and very economical.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Our Little Farm said:


> I agree. Chickens are very easy to raise and very economical.


Plus, with the chickens you get the added bonus of eggs. If you throw a rooster in there you can coninuously have meat for the table.


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## Betho (Dec 27, 2006)

We're kind of in the same situation and given the frozen veggie shortage this year it's more important than ever to have a decent garden. I've been gardening for years but was working full-time, which I am not anymore so I have time to devote to it but still have no idea how much I can potentially handle. Sorry I'm not much help! Hopefully this year I'll have a better idea of our needs. We're also doing chickens and I am seriously considering bees - just not sure if I can afford the startup. This is our first year at this house and our landlord said that a few years ago the bees left and crops have been dismal ever since. I have twenty fruit trees on this property and if I can get some pollinators I stand a chance for a decent fruit crop.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

What is your soil like? Do you have access to manure,compost/things to make compost to amend your soil? A good Tomato for Paste is San Marzano, a Heirloom. Brandywine is a good eating Heirloom Tomato. Pole beans and Bush Wax beans. Onions, there are different ones,some good Sweet ones and Yellow storage. Along with your gardens you are thinking of-start planning a cellar of some sort to store your produce. My main garden is about 40 x 80, -just for the regular foods. Corn went in a separate garden 4 different types so that the harvest would be covering a longer time, you might need to fence that special to keep raccoons out.Vining plants are in another place, where they can just cover everything if they want.It would be too hard to get all the gardens going at one time so, plan out what you need done right now. Put in a Herb garden, a Berry garden,and grapes after you get your food garden planted.Fruit trees can be put in in the spring, but that is a busy time,so fall also is good. Where will you put fruit trees? I put mine along a row of large pines for a wind break,on the south side. How about Asparagus? Don't do like me and put it somewhere it will be in the way- then you'll have to move it. Raise what your Family will eat, and store what you are able to. You can raise enough for 4 people.I have Silkies for setting on eggs and heavy hens for eggs. Angora rabbits for spinning and eating. These can be fed quite a bit of you can grow.Yes, Angora bunnies are also good for eating.


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

:hijacked:Betho, look into mason bees..no sting but no honey either...however fantastic pollenators! If they are there already(and just unrecognized) you can provide housing for them. It can be bought or made from found materials. I just use rolled up 8 to 12 inch long bundles of bamboo about the size of pencils or a little bigger(think those plant support packs). Some folks use paper straws in a cardboard tube. To know if you have them already, go to the very first tree/shrub to bloom after the sun hits it and look for a small cloud of very busy fliers. They are about one third to half the size of honey bees and dark in color.. With so many fruit trees I bet they are already there!


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

This is an interesting thread. I'm enjoying reading all the thoughts and answers. 

We're up to about 1/4 acre this year for a family of four, two adults and two kids. I don't expect it to produce everything we need, but that's largely because it's more of a grow-as-much-as-we-can-and-sell-the-excess garden rather than a true survival garden. 

Things that are time, labor or space intensive and that I can get locally for what I consider a reasonable price, I don't bother with. Things like sweet corn, wheat, apples. And I also don't grow some things that eventually I would like to, but haven't had a chance to add yet -- cherries, blueberries, strawberries, etc. 

But it produces more than enough of what I do grow -- tomatoes, peppers, bush beans, peas, lettuces, spinach, beets, radishes, melons, cukes, etc. -- so that I can both meet our needs and sell the excess to pay for the garden plus. In a good year anyway. Which is my basic goal. 

I would echo what everyone else said about the location, soil, etc playing a big part in yields. I've tried the gardening thing a few different ways and yields have varied widely right on the same property depending on methods, soil, etc.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

You might also till up a huge area, but only plant part of it in crops - the other plant in alfalfa or clover to be tilled in at a later time. Meanwhile, it's building up some incredible fertility in your soil.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

If you till a large area, you might divide it into 4 parts. Plant 1 in winter squash, 1 in potatoes, 1 in feild corn. The last one you could plant in the smaller items that take more work.
For the squash you'll need to choose by genus to keep them from cross polinating. Most summer varieties are C. pepo so choose a different genus for your winter squash.
Potatoes don't cross, so you can pick 2 varieties, one each late one, and early variety.
Corn does cross, but if you plant one for fresh and one for grinding, likey the pollen will come on at different times, so you shouldn't have a problem there.
Items like garlic are planted in the fall, are mulched well and don't take any work other than watering them till a couple of weeks before harvest.
For the first 2 years don't plant a paste type tomato, as it most likey will get bottom rot (blossum end rot). they seem to require more fertile soil.
Look up American intensive wide bed gardening and if you are lucky enough not to have slugs in your area use lots of mulch to preserve soil moisture and keep weeds down. Put newspaper down first for a weed barrier.
I divide my garden into 3 foot by 25 foot long beds and plant them with the rows going across the beds every 6 inches. i built a square with ropes on it so I can just lay it on the beds and it measures out the rows real fast. The square is 3 foot x 4 foot, so it is easy to move for one person.
The 6 inches is a basic measure used for root crops and then it goes up to 15 inches for plants like brocolli. So that the broccoli plants are 3 across the bed and the rows are 15 inches apart.
If you think your soil isn't fertile enough plant with your rows 12 inches apart for the first year or 2. 
I work out my garden plan so that each bed will grow at least 2 crops a year. greens are followed with green beans or carrots, garlic with brocolli, carrots with turnips, tomatoes with spinch ect.
Last year I had one bed produce spinich, green beans and then turnips. i was acually harvesting turnips into Dec. with no structure to protect them.


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## Betho (Dec 27, 2006)

bee said:


> :hijacked:Betho, look into mason bees..no sting but no honey either...however fantastic pollenators! If they are there already(and just unrecognized) you can provide housing for them. It can be bought or made from found materials. I just use rolled up 8 to 12 inch long bundles of bamboo about the size of pencils or a little bigger(think those plant support packs). Some folks use paper straws in a cardboard tube. To know if you have them already, go to the very first tree/shrub to bloom after the sun hits it and look for a small cloud of very busy fliers. They are about one third to half the size of honey bees and dark in color.. With so many fruit trees I bet they are already there!


Actually there aren't! The landlord said there have been NO pollinators and the trees hardly had any fruit on them last year. Our woods are filled with wild huckleberries and other edibles and even they have taken a hit. I have a feeling there must have been a beekeeper in the past who moved on, because he said it was fine just a few years ago.

I am also thinking about mason bees because it would be less maintenance, but then I figure if I am going to PAY for bees it might be a good idea to get honeybees, right? Just if I can afford it, I guess. With sugar prices being what they are, and the fact is we DO use a lot of honey (and I pay $14/qt for the local stuff) it would be worth my while if I can scrape up the investment and the energy to do it.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

I understand your urgency and would love to provide you a concrete answer. You got the best answer from the first response: See your local extension office!

What works for me in coastal VA will not work for you. And in your area soils, drainage and even organics differ from a place just one mile away. Get a good start by getting the materials (usually free) from your extension office on gardening in your area. Find the master gardeners (they usually run the master's gardener course at the ext office) and ask one to give you one on one advice. It usually is easy to get one of them to do that since they have to do a certain number of volunteer hours a year anyway.

Open pollinated heirlooms are definitely more challenging and offer lower yields many times, but if you find the one that is ideal for your specific location and climate, then they can instead be a real boomer of a producer. 

It's worth it to check with the extension office.

As for major groups, consider some of this:
- See if your climate allows for a good level of succession plantings. If you can garden for 2 or even three crops in a row, you'll have to do a whole lot less area.
- Improve your ability to return organics to the soil. Compost, chickens, rabbits..whatever you choose. Those are vital to continued production levels. I have a river front property with a large marsh and mudflats. I can use rich river mud in a pinch but have to concern myself with chemical remnants too. We all have options we may not consider.
- Balance yourself between high labor and low labor crops. Many make the mistake of having all crops that need tending. Balance yourself with an area for long growth but low labor crops like parsnips, turnips, leeks and celery root. They also store well for the most part.
- In a survival situation, calories count. Always be sure you have a storable crop of calorie dense vegetables that may not necessary provide all the vitamins. You can live with a vitamin deficit longer than no calories. Choose pumpkins, winter squashes, parsnips, potatoes and other forgiving and calorie dense foods.
- Interplant! In a survival situation or one in which you have seriously restricted funds, you can't use a bunch of pesticides or purchase them. Be sure to plant the right plants around your garden to ward off pests like marigolds and nasturtium and all sorts of stuff. You can find it on the web via google once you've got your food situation resolved.
- Carrots love tomatoes! That is the title of a book but it is also a key word in a theory often overlooked by gardeners. You don't just plop down your seeds in rows and expect perfection. Some plants don't like each other and will inhibit each other's growth and some enhance each other. Some put together will attract pests more than if they were apart...etc. You need to work out your scheme based on that information.
- Grains aren't easy. Grains are labor intensive in a way you can't imagine. You need huge areas to do it. If you go standard that is. Instead, accept a lack of wheat and go for a big producing Amaranth. I got up to a pound from each plant and that is even with the birds going at it like crazy. Some you can get a kilo or more per plant. It is still labor intensive but you can hide them in plain sight and not need a huge field. Harvest is a snip, snip, snip rather than days of grueling labor also.
- Fruit. Get your fruit trees and bushes now so you'll be able to harvest in a few years.

hope this helps a little.
-


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## Pelenaka (Jul 27, 2007)

willbuck1 said:


> What size should a four person garden be to provide all produce needed for one year.
> 
> What all should be in the garden ?
> 
> I'm sure I'm not the only person feeling an edge of desperation and this is my first serious garden in over 30 years.



The grannymiller link is a good one. 
Vintage Ball canning books have a canning plan or budget table that lists; product, number of times served, serving size, amount need for 1 person, amount needed for family of 5.

Example 
Under product - Tomatoes & tomato juice (more if crop is short)
# of times served - 3 per wk. x 36 weeks
Serving size - 1/2 cup
Amt. per 1 person - 13 1/2 quarts for the year
Family of 5 - 67 1/2 quarts for the year.

We would go thru 67 + quarts if I used plain stewed toms for sauce making. 
Interesting to note that under pickles the # of times served is 2 per wk. x 52 weeks.

_What all should be in the garden ?_ - plant what you eat, which is another way of saying eat what you store. 

Last week I brought up a pint of Victorian Rhubarb BBQ sauce recipe (Ball) from the cellar. Made 6 pts. in 2009 including the pint that was suppose to be used for last Thursday's chicken dinner ... 5 are left. Waste of effort & resources. 
Year before last I canned a bit over 200 jars other than a kiwi jam (majority given as gifts) & the BBQ sauce the majority of efforts were the basics. 
For your 1st year gardening I'd just stick with veggies but work on a local connection for wheat, honey, and dairy products. Besides a grain mill you will also need containers for storage & O2 absorbers. 

_I'm sure I'm not the only person feeling an edge of desperation and this is my first serious garden in over 30 years._ 

No your not. We all feel it.
My 1st serious garden was this one nine years ago from scratch. It was as a single parent with 4 children living on 9k and varying amounts of child support none higher than $240per month. 
My gardening efforts have always been a matter of survival.


~~ pelenaka ~~
http://thirtyfivebyninety.blogspot.com/


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Also make use of plants that you can use at different stages.
Like turnips and beets. The thinings are good as greens and the roots are good at any stage past a large marble.


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

A good book for raising grains and rotational gardening is Gene Logden's Small Scale Grain Raising. Worth every penny and I bought it new. You will find lots of info on different grains, yields and storage. I plan on doing some grain this year to get the learning curve underway. 
As pointed out, get your fruit trees going, they need some time to get established. Now is a good time to peruse catalogs and figure out what varieties you want. 
Check out sources for fertilizer if you do not have some of your own. Read about compost, there are some Stickys in the Vault on top of this board. Forerunner posted some great info and based on the pictures he has posted, his gardens are wonderful. Search out things on different boards, one of the easies things I tried in an effort to expand, was to plant my potatoes in hay. Found that suggestion on HT, dh did not think it would work but guess who wants to do it again? You are asking lots of good questions, the best thing is to just jump in. It either will work or you try something else.


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## Mutti (Sep 7, 2002)

Start with a moderate size garden. Grow only what you actually like to eat. Plant plenty of potatoes. Never leave a spot empty in the garden. If the beans are done put in something else right away...or Mother Nature will fill in with weeds! Check daily for bugs. Put up everything you can 'cause next year could be a drough or too much rain or late frosts that kill the orchard. Mulch to conserve water so you can use it for things that need it most like onions. Never turn down free produce/fruit from neighbors.

We have an 80x100' garden which includes permanent beds of herbs and strawberries. Another 40x40' area has potatoes under straw alternated with rows of shelling beans and rows of op corn. They all stay in the ground for a long time so make good partners.

Don't frown on hybrid seeds. Often they are the only reason we get a crop of tomatoes, for instance, in humid scorching hot droughty Mo. I plant both op and hybrid and save what I can but when you really Need the food you want to ensure your crops survival. I could probably go on for pages after 45+ years of gardening. A smaller garden well-tended with always yield more than an over-whelming area. Don't forget to plant flowers all about to encourage bees and butterflies...they feed the soul which is as important as the belly........DEE

oh, I really suggest finding a source for storage wheat. A couple of years ago we grew two acres and man, it is alot of work unless you know somebody with a small combine...interesting as a project but sure wouldn't want to be dependent on my wheat crop for toast in the morning!


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Another thing, Black plastic makes a good mulch. Keeps the weeds down,saves on water, and some plants really like the extra heat. It is usable for more than 1 year. The red plastic mulch they sell for Tomatoes,it lasted for 5 seasons. I didn't really find much diffrence with the production of the Tomatoes as they claim, so I won't purchase it again. It was real thin and expect the black plastic to last quite a bit longer.


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## Canning Girl (Jan 13, 2010)

In a raised garden bed that is 6' x 12', I grew enough bush green beans to can 100 pts, which is enough for our family of 5 for a year+. In 2009 I had 40 tomato plants and grew enough to make nearly 100 quarts of spaghetti sauce, 100+pints of salsa, and 50ish quarts of stewed tomatoes. Even though our 2010 tomato crop was abysmal, we still have plenty of tomato products to get us through this year.

I highly recommend raised beds because you can space plants closer together, and they are easier to tend.


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## trkarl (Dec 15, 2009)

Canning Girl said:


> In a raised garden bed that is 6' x 12', I grew enough bush green beans to can 100 pts, which is enough for our family of 5 for a year+. In 2009 I had 40 tomato plants and grew enough to make nearly 100 quarts of spaghetti sauce, 100+pints of salsa, and 50ish quarts of stewed tomatoes. Even though our 2010 tomato crop was abysmal, we still have plenty of tomato products to get us through this year.
> 
> I highly recommend raised beds because you can space plants closer together, and they are easier to tend.


I totally agree with the raised beds producing huge yields in small spaces. 
All I have is my small back yard with raised beds and we get incredible amounts of produce. Last year on 6 cucumber vines from May 1 to the end of June I got approx. 300 cucumbers. They took up a 4 x 4 area with 2 per 6 foot trellis.

Raised beds also make it easy to rotate crops. All my beds are 4' wide but with differing lengths from 12 down to 4 feet.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

Ditto on the raised beds...I do almost all raised beds except the squash and long vines. Get LOADS of produce. I'm in a flood zone though so I kinda have to.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

We too use raised beds for the same reason. Best way to get the biggest yield out of the space that we've found. They don't have to be fancy. They don't even have to have walls, just heap your soil up in 4 foot wide rows and plant close and thick.


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

Ok the soil is WV red clay. On a ridge top and bedrock is less than 3 feet down. I know it will be work but it is work I've done before but I never planned the gardens back then. I know yields won't be great but any crops in will reduce my food costs for this year and hopefully help me get too next year. 

The rising food costs is a personal SHTF situation for myself and my kids. A 50% rise in food costs will break me. I'm also not too confident about things holding together even until next year for us to ramp up production. If things do fine, but if not I want to at least have a fighting chance. If things look better later in the year I"ll plow some things under and plant cover crops to give a better garden next year.

Animals don't worry me too much. I'll have some chickens and pigs before long and them I do know how much and how to raise without much difficulty. I know cows best of all but that will have to wait. Just don't have the extra funds right now.

Fruit trees, stawberries, raspberries, blackberries, and grape vines will be going in this year but they won't help us eat this year.

So, assuming 2 gardens about 800 feet apart and that new seeds will not be available next year what can I safely plant in each and still have the strains breed true and keep us fed. I only really need one type of tomato because paste will do what I need. Beans, can I plant one green in one garden and one dry in the other and keep the strains reasonably pure? If so what is the single most useful green bean in your opinion? How about dried bean?

I've roasted field corn and it wasn't half bad so scratch sweet corn. What corn will give me the most yield, best disease resistance, and grow well in clay. 

Onions, best keeper with a good yield in clay. Carrots the same. Greens, what can I plant in each patch and have stay true to type.

Turnips, beets, and radishes, again how much and what types

What do you plant and how much of it? How much seed do I need to grow enough for 4 for 1 year assuming average yields. How many tomato plants? I'll make adjustments for lower yields.

I know I'm asking the impossible but for those with land who finally get it in the next two or three months this thread could be a lifesaver.

I wouldn't be in this boat if I'd been able to buy my land a year earlier but I couldn't and it doesn't look like events are going to give me another year. 

I would love to do raised beds but I don't have the money to buy the soil. I have about 1 acre of bottom land with 20 foot of loam on it but not enough time to dig it up and move it for the garden. Maybe next year. I'd put the garden there but it only gets about 3 hours of direct sunlight a day.


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

Several things for starters...beans self pollenate so no need to seperate. A good tasting pole bean with fantastic yield is Fortex, here 18" beans are not uncommon before they plump the seeds!

3 hours direct sunlight sounds like lettuce and cole crops would do well there, consider that. Cabbage as a fresh veggie and as a winter keeper. Maybe the turnips and rutabagas too. I'd try carrots and parsnips there too as they need that loose soil.

Look into a short season corn if you have to plant it in the lesser sun loam area; plant it later than normal to take advantage of the heat and direct overhead sun.

Had you given any thought to "spot" enriching where you plant? For the winter squashes that need full sun just bring up from the bottom land a bushel of good soil for right where you plant your hill..plant butternuts(Waltham is good) excellent yield and great keeper. Figure 2 or more fruits per vine. Somewhat vine borer resistant as the vines are not hollow.
Tomatos do the same, just get some of that loan right in the enlarged planting hole. Ridgetop means good drainage but clay is definately a problem..good nutrients but can make a water barrier for drainage. Then there is wind on a ridgetop..any tree shelter belts to keep corn or other tall plants from being blown over??

Interesting set of challenges...


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Is it possible for you to get any composted cow manure or horse manure? Alot of farms and places that board horses,just pile it up year after year. It would help with your clay,Immensely if you could till it in before you plant anything. I planted 4- 40 ft. rows of potatoes that were from the year before.Don't know what kind of potatoes they were just a Michigan common,maybe a Kennebec. They were about 12" apart, got about 400 lbs. hilled them twice.(these are not even thinking of going to sprout in the pantry and are as firm as the day I dug them) 1 row of reds and Russian, gave me 50 lbs. About 30 paste tomatoes, produced over 125 qts.(quit counting) sauce and at least 30 pts. salsa. Blue Lake pole beans, over 50 pt.s green beans-16 foot on a trellis planted both sides,1 row of mixed bush beans, not muck from these-a mouse seemed to like them. I try for at least 1 jar per week. California Wounder Orange peppers(heirloom) 6 plants,for fresh eating and salsa. 3 jalapenos gave enough peppers for salsa and 3 cayenne for chili.2 rows of onions,Walla Walla and Granex Hybrid from seed. This year I'm going to order Candy onion sets again, they are the sweetest. And will plant plain ol "yellow storage" onions for storing thru the winter. Lettuce- planted successions of different ones, didn't worry about seed. Dill, parsley, Basil, planted and dried for thru the winter. Beets ,Detroit reds do the best. Turnips- there are different ones. There is a special one if you are going to also use the greens. Squash, Butternut,Acorn,Spaghetti,and pumpkins are still doing well in my pantry, plant a packet of each. Carrots, usually I don't plant them, because of a worm in my soil likes them. This year I'll try again, so am trying the Yellow sweet, 3 packets per 40" row. Hope this helps a bit.


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

My beets are always Winter Keepers(Lutz)..get really big but not woody and the greens are good too. I'll second the candy onions and copra for a keeper.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

here is a web site that may help. If you can find the book seed to seed, it is will help too.
http://www.seedsave.org/
I have found some seeds are too hard to save in our growing season. Peppers for instance. i have never gotten seeds that mature enough in their pods to germinate.
If any one has a tip on those i would appreciate it.


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## Limon (Aug 25, 2010)

SquashNut said:


> here is a web site that may help. If you can find the book seed to seed, it is will help too.
> http://www.seedsave.org/
> I have found some seeds are too hard to save in our growing season. Peppers for instance. i have never gotten seeds that mature enough in their pods to germinate.
> If any one has a tip on those i would appreciate it.


Could you try growing a pepper plant in a container and moving it inside when it starts getting cold outside? I've never used the wall o' water season extenders, but that might also keep them warm enough long enough to mature.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

Limon said:


> Could you try growing a pepper plant in a container and moving it inside when it starts getting cold outside? I've never used the wall o' water season extenders, but that might also keep them warm enough long enough to mature.


That's what I do. It works. But I'm in VA. Too far North of me that might get difficult.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

My in-laws had an acre garden for a family of 5, but they included space hogs like okra. Everybody worked in that garden, including 4 year olds.

They ALSO raised corn for corn bread and feed, and they had hogs to eat. They bought 50 pounds of dried beans every year and they also bought white flour qnd, I think sugar.

They also had a cow for milk: the calf was sold. They had chickens but they sold all of the eggs. There was no market for vegetables: If my in-laws had tomatos everybody did, because everybody around her had a garden. So, they had a wide variety of vegetables and lots of them!

In other words their daily diet, day in and day out, was biscuits, corn bread, white beans, milk, pork, and vegetables. 7 days a week. Month in and month out. Their only real variety was the vegetables. 

To this day MIL is happy eating a variety of vegetables, but she eats little meat.

I suspect that they all got very tired of the depression diet, but MIL NEVER! complained about food. Ever. Her parents would NOT! have reacted well to such a complaint! They ate better than many and the kids were expected to say "please and thank you", and to not waste anything!


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

OP, I'd check out your neighbors and find the best gardener in your hood and get attached at the hip and learn all their wisdom. It will greatly shorten your learning curve for your microclimate. You're getting a lot of good advice, and I'm sure you know this, but you are in a unique microclimate(WV? talk to Christy she's in V)--find out what works in YOUR area, with YOUR soils.

On the other hand this is a great thread to know square footage that people use in their areas, but it would be more helpful researchingly if they were more specific either by state, or a description of climate(temperate, marine, desert, etc). 

Now I would say that you plant as much footage as you can! Def get your fruit trees, vines, grapes etc in and growing, and do a little extra research on siting them well, because nothing sucks like those things dying cuz they aint happy!

If you're in the country, scope out feral fruit trees on abandoned land, it's easy in the spring when they are blooming. You can bone up on pruning and stealth prune some up to produce more(or if you know the landowner, never hurts to ask!heh!). Plant all your pits too, we have a few cherry trees from tossing pits. Takes forever for them to get going though. Walnuts seem to grow like weeds, and also you can layer stuff like peach or apple for new trees(I see a lot of those old trees doing it naturally).

Tomatos are kind of exotic fruit for a lot of the USA. For instance for me in western oregon stuff like cabbage, greens, potatoes, roots, berries, and the right squash grow like weeds. Tomatos are just too iffy because of the climate, so they are on the luxury list. SO consider what's on your list accordingly, if something takes too much coddling, then it's kinda risky to rely on it to play a big part.


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## jamala (May 4, 2007)

I plant 6 -200foot rows of sweet corn each year--it takes 1 3/4 to 2 lbs of seed to do that. I get enough corn to feed my family of 5 and my mom and dad for a year. I cut it off the cob and freeze and can it. I know you said you were not doing sweet corn but I don't know about field corn. 
Tomatoes-- I plant 1 200ft row about 125 plants and it provides enough for fresh eating and canned products for our family of 5 for a year or more. 
Potatoes-- I plant 3 200ft. rows and get about 150 qts of potatoes canned as well as lots of fresh eating. 
I plant contender green string beans and 1 200ft. row gives me 200 jars or more in a good year. 
I plant dixie speckled butter peas which can be put up fresh in the freezer or left to dry and used as shell beans. They are GREAT producers for me in Hot Mississsippi summers. 
Hope some of this helps you


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

Thanks guys this is helping. I hadn't thought about bringing up loam for just where the plants were. Thought of bringing up enough for the whole bed. I'll try the cold weather plants in the bottom but will also try them up high so if it doesn't work in one place it might in the other. That will make three beds each about 800 feet from the others. 2 of them might be close enough to neighbors gardens for them to be a problem for cross pollination.

Luckily I am zone 6a so the growing season is long enough for most crops and winter isn't too cold usually. Sweet peppers aren't high on my list but cayenne and jalapeno are. Herbs and such will be a necessity to break up food monotony. My kids are luckily liking the idea of being able to go to the garden and picking their salad. Don't expect it to last but it'll be fun until they realize it is work.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

It's too cold/damp/cloudy here for bell peppers or larger peppers for me(without a greenhouse), but I do have real good luck with the smaller cayenne and jalapenos. Since they are small they don't need so much hot weather to grow--that's my theory anyway! We had a really bleary summer last year, tomatos really sucked, but the little peppers were troopers!


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

PS< this spring one of my projects is to build a low rock wall around a bed for my tomatoes, I'll ***** with moss, and I'll see if that helps them warm up--with the rocks holding heat and blocking the wind. I also have old windows I could lay on top to make a little greenhouse.

I'm saving anything window-y to use for green house-y effect, from large plastic jugs(cut off the bottom), to old drum skins, etc. I also have a pile of old windows that someday I'll make into a greenhouse--I'll probably dig into a hillside a bit.


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## TJN66 (Aug 29, 2004)

Great thread!!


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