# New to sheep, 3 found dead, neigbhors LGD pack chasing lambs



## cking (Jul 25, 2017)

Hello everyone. Im new to raising sheep. Also new to my home so, I made an arrangement with a guy to put his sheep on my property and show me the ropes so to speak. I recently ran into a situation and Im hoping for some experienced insight.

We had 17 adult sheep, two little lambs. Long story short, I saw at least two dogs with collars one afternoon that appeared to be chasing the lambs, walked out to property and found three dead sheep. The sheep that were dead were slightly bloated in 105 degree heat with only slight marks on belly and back legs. The lambs hid in brush and the dogs seemed to be hanging out waiting for a chance. I took pictures of two dogs, secured the sheep/lambs and assumed it was the dogs that did the killing and patched up the location I saw the dogs leave through. Security cameras showed the same dogs the morning the sheep were killed walking inside property at the crossfence line and then every morning after in a group up to six strong, all same breed. I didnt recognize the breed but just today found that a neighbor behind us professionally raises LGD, the same exact breed I saw chase my lambs and in video. Ive never seen any other animal on my property besides this LGD breed and my sheep but my cameras only cover a small portion. I was sure the dogs were the problem, came close to shooting them, but now after I found they are an LGD breed, im wondering if something else could have happened or they were hungry or went rougue? Has anyone saw a LGD breed kill like this or should I assume it was coincidence and they were perhaps chasing another predator?


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Yes I have seen this before.

The guy had a bunch of LGD mutts, they free roamed. The man swore his dogs wouldn't do such a thing as attack livestock, but the dogs were dragging fresh (cattle?)bones home with them. Owner couldn't afford to feed them on a regular basis, and did not bother containing OR training them. This same man couldn't figure out what was happening to his baby chicks or newborn potbellied pigs, either. . .

Complete and utter denial.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Have you reported this the Sheriff? I would.


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## cking (Jul 25, 2017)

Thanks!, wish I had absolute proof one way or the other I'd feel better. I did have sherrif come out, at the time I only had a picture of the dog, I didn't know the breed or who the owner was so sherrif said nothing could be done. I'm still waiting get call from animal control since I reported it to them also. I guess in hindsight there is some crazy remote chance the dogs showed up late or during a predator attack, but I know I saw them chasing our screaming young lamb first hand plus the dead sheep were undamaged just scraped at belly and back legs.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Shoot one or both.......the Sheriff will be out pronto as well as the owner.....
You need to get this resolved and not be afraid of someone else's problem.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Are you neighbors with the man I knew with the dogs, by chance? Heh, this sounds soo familiar


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

cking said:


> Thanks!, wish I had absolute proof one way or the other I'd feel better.


How much more proof do you need?:



cking said:


> I saw at least two dogs with collars one afternoon that appeared to be chasing the lambs


Report it to the proper LEO's, tell the owner to control his dogs, keep a rifle handy, and don't be afraid to use it.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

....and know how to use it!
One of the dogs I mentioned was shot with a .223, I had the pleasure of doing the vet work on him. Bullet went in one side and out the other, somehow nothing important 
was hit in the process. . .


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I have heard it said that chased sheep will sometimes die of heat stroke, due to their warm wooly coats.

Is this true?


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## Springwood (Mar 8, 2017)

Terri said:


> I have heard it said that chased sheep will sometimes die of heat stroke, due to their warm wooly coats.
> 
> Is this true?


yes, that's true. Sheep can die from the heat, and too much stress. So if the dogs were chasing the sheep, it could have killed the sheep. I agree with what some of the others said. Keep your gun handy, if you see the dogs on your property (doesn't matter if they are chasing the sheep or not) shoot, shovel and shut up. It's your property and the dogs do not belong there. If they are terrorizing your livestock you have every right to kill them. I just wouldn't tell anyone about it.


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## cking (Jul 25, 2017)

Thanks for the replies. I did report it to sherrif, I think I may contact them to add the information about the breed and the neighbor being a breeder. Our sheep are dorper but ive heard that sheep can be "ran to death" by dogs as well. I have my choice of 12g and 30 30 and will not hesitate to use them, but first I will leave a letter at the owners gate and hopefully he will at least reply to civilly discuss it instead of ignoring it. Im really trying hard not to kill someones dogs, but its looking like there is no choice, I cant keep the girls locked up in the small front pen forever.


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## trainv (Apr 30, 2013)

call the dept of livestock. they handle livestock and dog issures very different than the sheriff will.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

Around here,those would be dead dogs. If a dog attacks my livestock I'm gonna shoot


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Oregon1986 said:


> Around here,those would be dead dogs. If a dog attacks my livestock I'm gonna shoot


Not with that new .22 I hope? 

Couldn't help myself, sorry!!! I crack myself up sometimes. But seriously, unless it's at really close range I wouldn't try it with the revolver


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

ShannonR said:


> Not with that new .22 I hope?
> 
> Couldn't help myself, sorry!!! I crack myself up sometimes. But seriously, unless it's at really close range I wouldn't try it with the revolver


Lol no don't think the .22 would do what I wanted


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Oregon1986 said:


> Lol no don't think the .22 would do what I wanted


If you must use that caliber, at least use a rifle for this one. Accuracy is key.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

ShannonR said:


> If you must use that caliber, at least use a rifle for this one. Accuracy is key.


You ruin all my fun,lol


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Oregon1986 said:


> You ruin all my fun,lol


I'm not trying to rain on your parade, promise. See my above post, about getting to doctor a dog who had been shot and all the vitals were missed. The dog fully deserved it, but whoever shot him missed and the dog ran home to its owner, and tensions escalated....put it that way lol

The owner swears to this day his dogs would never do such a thing.


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## Oregon1986 (Apr 25, 2017)

ShannonR said:


> I'm not trying to rain on your parade, promise. See my above post, about getting to doctor a dog who had been shot and all the vitals were missed. The dog fully deserved it, but whoever shot him missed and the dog ran home to its owner, and tensions escalated....put it that way lol
> 
> The owner swears to this day his dogs would never do such a thing.


I know just giving you hard time


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

hunter63 said:


> Shoot one or both.......the Sheriff will be out pronto as well as the owner.....
> You need to get this resolved and not be afraid of someone else's problem.


Makes sense. Dog and irresponsible owner are both significant problems.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

IndyDave said:


> Makes sense. Dog and irresponsible owner are both significant problems.


Actually you don't even have to shoot them.
I you see tham call the sheriff, ...when you re talking to dispatch...and they are blowing you off, there is nothing we can do,yada, yada.......fire off a couple of rounds so then can hear it.....
Then just say...."OK, nevermind I took care of it"
They will be there pronto..... 

Had a neighbors dog running deer at my "Place" shepard mix...
Went down and ask the neighbor, then owner to please keep him in...dogs running deer are shot on sight around there.

They said , "Yeah, sure.....and of course he was out there again...
Fired a couple of rounds over him...he hightailed it home.

They live close enough to hear it......
Didn't see that dog again during deer season
I love all dogs...but hate some of the owners.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

I have cought neighbors dogs that ran my chickens and killed my 19 year old cat, put them in the car and took them to the shelter as strays. That way the owners have to pay to get them out. It took three times before neighbors controlled the dogs.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/...trial-ordered-ionia-county-dog-case/99515956/

Apparently, ACO didn't want the dogs killed, so came up with the opinion that the dogs didn't do it. Later, fearing the dogs would be killed, one mysteriously missing. ACO fired.

Up north, wolves are protected. Losses from wolves killing sheep and calves is covered by DNR, IF you can prove it. Often there is no wolf foot prints, no body and farmer just can't prove it was a wolf.

Shooting a neighbor's dog is serious. Then you need to figure out if you want to put the effort of digging a big hole or if you want to cripple it to die on the neighbor's porch, leaving them the disposal problem. Sometimes shooting their dog leads to "push comes to shove". Are you prepared for retaliation? Most communities are sensitive to humane treatment of pets, over livestock. Don't become the crazy killer of the neighbor's pets.


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## Rosepath (Feb 18, 2011)

The OP stated they'd not like to kill anyone's dog, and they're not sure if the owner knows about the situation. 
So, get pictures of the LGD's on your property, they'll be back; get pictures of them chasing the sheep if you feel it's worth the risk and you can get out there and stop it before it goes very long, a video is worth a thousand words. Keep the sheep locked up at night when you can't see what's going on out there. Check your fences to fix anything that remotely looks weak, but a determined LGD can climb woven wire, so put a couple of hot wires around your barn lot at least.
We had the same situation, a neighbor's dogs came down for two nights running, killed sheep, my child was very small and I didn't like the risk to the sheep or the child. A different neighbor sized up the situation, came over the 3rd morning, we got in his truck and went over to the owner's place, where their "gentle" dogs were loose in the front yard. Explained dead sheep.
Never saw those dogs again, thank goodness. Hope your situation works out well, BTW if you're in Indiana, at least a few years ago the dog tax was still in effect and it pays you for sheep lost to dog attacks, not sure how to claim it, maybe the county courthouse can tell you.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Rosepath said:


> The OP stated *they'd not like* to kill anyone's dog


I didn't "like" it any of the times I've done it.

Here the law actually says if a dog kills livestock the owner has to kill it himself, or anyone else can do it any time they want.


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## cking (Jul 25, 2017)

I agree with your replies. I just purchased this land in january and Im really trying to avoid a neigbhorhood war or future worries about what happens to my dogs or livestock if they get near someone elses parcel who is upset at me. Not to mention, although in California the law states I have the right to shoot the dog when they are chasing livestock, there are multiple stories and news articles about this same situation and the shooter being tried criminally and/or civilly and having to defend himself in court. I did finally get in touch with the owner online, so far the reply has been that they have sold many of this breed to locals including neigbhors so they dont think they are their dogs. I sent them a picture of one of the dogs and explained I watched three of their breed chase lambs and go out my parcel and onto theirs under the fence that separates us. They told me their LGD are securely fenced with their livestock and they are sure they did not leave their post. Seems hard for them to deny, these lots are only 15-20 acres, its not like its a huge ranch that lots of other animals may roam on. Maybe the video's I have of 6 of the same breed coming halfway onto my property from their property to stalk the sheep for three days after the kill will convince them, if not, I guess I better get a lawyer to defend me after I kill them.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Sounds like the lambs were run to death. If there are teeth marks DNR can tell you if it was a coyote, wolf, cat, or dog. This would have given you further evidence that it was a large domestic dog.

The dogs are having fun. I've had dogs get into my pasture. Fortunately, the two donkeys would run them off. With six dogs, two donkeys would not have a chance. If you see them again, you may be able to lure them into a vehicle and take them to an animal shelter.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

cking said:


> I agree with your replies. I just purchased this land in january and Im really trying to avoid a neigbhorhood war or future worries about what happens to my dogs or livestock if they get near someone elses parcel who is upset at me. Not to mention, although in California the law states I have the right to shoot the dog when they are chasing livestock, there are multiple stories and news articles about this same situation and the shooter being tried criminally and/or civilly and having to defend himself in court. I did finally get in touch with the owner online, so far the reply has been that they have sold many of this breed to locals including neigbhors so they dont think they are their dogs. I sent them a picture of one of the dogs and explained I watched three of their breed chase lambs and go out my parcel and onto theirs under the fence that separates us. They told me their LGD are securely fenced with their livestock and they are sure they did not leave their post. Seems hard for them to deny, these lots are only 15-20 acres, its not like its a huge ranch that lots of other animals may roam on. Maybe the video's I have of 6 of the same breed coming halfway onto my property from their property to stalk the sheep for three days after the kill will convince them, if not, I guess I better get a lawyer to defend me after I kill them.


You ARE in California, what kind of dogs exactly, if may ask? You didn't settle in a little town called Igo by chance did you? Because if you did, there is no hope of the guy cotrolling his dogs,....

Animal control will give you the runaround and tell you its illegal to shoot the dogs. This is NOT true, don't let them fool you. SSS.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

If you shoot them with a paintball gun it's hard for the owners to deny it was their dog.

WWW


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

That is a great idea! Paint balls. What about trail cam


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

wy_white_wolf said:


> If you shoot them with a paintball gun it's hard for the owners to deny it was their dog.
> 
> WWW


Careful with this one....legally it could be construed as animal abuse. And California is ****ing stupid with their laws......


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

ShannonR said:


> Animal control will give you the runaround and tell you its illegal to shoot the dogs. This is NOT true, don't let them fool you. SSS.


*cue music*

I shot the sheriff! But I did not shoot the doggie!


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

So if the upset dog will come to you hang a note on the dog? Oh I got it get some temp hair color spray and spray stripes poka dots....


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## cking (Jul 25, 2017)

Ive taken pictures of the dogs, and have video, pretty good video too. The video shows 6 akbash dogs darting in and out of the main pen on the north side of my lot, the opposite side of where they came in. The sheep are not in the frame but its pretty obvious they are playing with the sheep, darting in and out. The video was from the same day the three were found dead. The neighbor says they arent theirs and they could be a nearby akbash that they have sold to neighbors over the years, but who else for miles and miles has a pack of 6 or more akbash? ShannonR I wish I was way up north in Igo, its more my style, but we are central cal. Ive just bought a game cam and will be setting it up at the fence where they have came through in the past. But in the end if the owner says they arent his, and animal control wont come out, I think I only have two choices, kill the dogs or keep the flock locked up in the pen near the house. Both choices have alot of negatives. I really hope the owner comes to their senses.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

You'll have to make that decision, obviously. I suspect animal control won't come out because they expect a livestock owner to protect their livestock. Any 4 legged animal that threatens any of my livestock will be dealt with swiftly and humanely, but permanently. If your neighbor has claimed they aren't his, I wouldn't worry about his reaction if they are eliminated. He is disclaiming them, I suspect, so that he won't be responsible for compensating you for their damage.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

At some point they will probably try the "this breed is bred to protect livestock, so it couldn't be THESE dogs" routine. As a trapper, who has responded to "coyote" damage many times, LGDs are not immune to the immense pleasure derived from killing sheep. Go out, set traps, the owner puts their dogs up, or tells their neighbor to, and you catch absolutely nothing and the day after you pull traps, they call you back because the coyotes came back. Hard to convince people what is happening sometimes. I saw one case where a dog actually protected his sheep, but killed the neighbor's sheep, and have heard of that before from other trappers. But the damage you are describing definitely sounds like dogs, they flank them a little. Have seen dogs kill many a sheep without biting a one. Sometimes a dog will dig at them like they were trying to bury a bone in their wool, and that will be the only mark on them. Talked to a fellow with sheep one time and he had his border collie get loose while he was at work, it penned his sheep up on a hot day and they couldn't get water, he lost a couple that day. There is no such thing as a dog that won't kill livestock, they just need the right, or wrong situation. They might not even mean to, but sheep are easy to kill.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

cking, I can appreciate your reluctance to do what cannot be undone and that you feel you just can't be 100% certain who owns these dogs.
So lets go with absolutes-
You are losing sheep due to predators.
You have video of a pack of LGDs are coming onto your property and harassing your livestock.
The breeder of the same type of dog you have on video lives right behind you.

Questions_Does your neighbor keep at least 6 dogs loose at night? Did he sell the "local" at least 6 dogs?

It is ironic that this story happens so much in that one neighbor fears offending another neighbor so much they reluctantly go along to get along, yet the other neighbor seemingly has no concern about the relationship at all and continues to impose their ignorance or lack of concern on them.

My solution would be addition by subtraction. You have notified whom you think may be responsible and they deny it.
At this point, I cannot afford to continue to lose animals out of "courtesy".
I lay in wait and when they arrive, I drop as many as I can. Whomever owns these animals would likely contact you and thus reveal themselves. If the guy behind you becomes your enemy after that, he was never going to be a good neighbor anyway.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

cking said:


> They told me their LGD are securely fenced with their livestock and they are sure they did not leave their post.


Then he won't mind if you shoot any dogs chasing your animals since they "cant be his".


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## cking (Jul 25, 2017)

Thank you for your replies. At the end of the day I saw the LGD dogs with my own two eyes chasing the two little lambs the day I found the other three adults dead. Its strange how the little lambs survived as they arent very agile, they were maybe three weeks old but somehow they dodged and hid in brush and the dogs didnt catch them. When I grabbed them they were frozen with fear and it seemed to me they would have been easy for the dogs to grab but maybe they didnt run enough, wasnt exciting enough? Anyway, what I saw that day was clear chasing, worrying and terrorizing my sheep and that is the same verbage used in california law as legal right to put down the offending dog. This weekend I plan on letting the sheep out back to the land. We are fortifying the fence and will be armed waiting for any problems. Ive held them in a small pen at the top of my property for about a week, were tired of buying bales and the post harvest corn that we had is about gone, so they need to go back and graze, I think Ive done all I can do. I like the comment from GTX63 about them not being a good neighbor in the first place so why sweat it.


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## Back2Basix (Dec 24, 2015)

cking said:


> Hello everyone. Im new to raising sheep. Also new to my home so, I made an arrangement with a guy to put his sheep on my property and show me the ropes so to speak. I recently ran into a situation and Im hoping for some experienced insight.
> 
> We had 17 adult sheep, two little lambs. Long story short, I saw at least two dogs with collars one afternoon that appeared to be chasing the lambs, walked out to property and found three dead sheep. The sheep that were dead were slightly bloated in 105 degree heat with only slight marks on belly and back legs. The lambs hid in brush and the dogs seemed to be hanging out waiting for a chance. I took pictures of two dogs, secured the sheep/lambs and assumed it was the dogs that did the killing and patched up the location I saw the dogs leave through. Security cameras showed the same dogs the morning the sheep were killed walking inside property at the crossfence line and then every morning after in a group up to six strong, all same breed. I didnt recognize the breed but just today found that a neighbor behind us professionally raises LGD, the same exact breed I saw chase my lambs and in video. Ive never seen any other animal on my property besides this LGD breed and my sheep but my cameras only cover a small portion. I was sure the dogs were the problem, came close to shooting them, but now after I found they are an LGD breed, im wondering if something else could have happened or they were hungry or went rougue? Has anyone saw a LGD breed kill like this or should I assume it was coincidence and they were perhaps chasing another predator?


Too little too late, but around here the DNR with investigate livestock kills (cattle, sheep, pig, etc) but want you to call day of, not move the animals, tarp the carcasses in case of rain etc. There is even a compensation fund set up to get reimbursed and they usually investigate kills related to bear/wolf/coyote/dogs attacking.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Back2Basix said:


> Too little too late, but around here the DNR with investigate livestock kills (cattle, sheep, pig, etc) but want you to call day of, not move the animals, tarp the carcasses in case of rain etc. There is even a compensation fund set up to get reimbursed and they usually investigate kills related to bear/wolf/coyote/dogs attacking.


We have DFG, as opposed to DNR in california


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## Back2Basix (Dec 24, 2015)

ShannonR said:


> We have DFG, as opposed to DNR in california


This would be a good piece for any livestock owner to keep handy who live in big predator country. Unfortunately it's geared towards Michigan main predators, maybe the Cali DFG has something similar. I don't know if the forum will let me post the URL but I'll try below.

http://www.Michigan.gov/documents/Brochure_Did_Predator_Kill_Livestock_165508_7.pdf


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

California largely encourages livestock owners to just put up with predator problems.... the liberal mentality is just sickening.

https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Living-with-Wildlife

No compensation for livestock losses.
Livestock is covered by animal control, who also won't do a darned thing about the issue.
Wolves are an endangered species here... no help whatsever if it's a wolf killing your critters.

Depredaion permits for some predators can be issued but are extremely hard to come by.

God forbid anyone hurt one of those cute furry wolves, even when they decide to eat your flock of sheep.


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## DragonFlyFarm (Oct 12, 2012)

ShannonR I'm in Northern California - we have the right to shoot/kill any dog that comes onto the property and threatens/causes damage to our livestock. The owner of the animal is responsible whether they were aware of the situation or not, I think you can sue for double the amount of your financial loss. Neighborly to give the owners of the dogs a chance to rectify the problem, but since the OP did that first off unfortunately she has no other choice but to shoot the dogs. No one wants to shoot a dog, it's all very sad.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

DragonFlyFarm said:


> ShannonR I'm in Northern California - we have the right to shoot/kill any dog that comes onto the property and threatens/causes damage to our livestock. The owner of the animal is responsible whether they were aware of the situation or not, I think you can sue for double the amount of your financial loss. Neighborly to give the owners of the dogs a chance to rectify the problem, but since the OP did that first off unfortunately she has no other choice but to shoot the dogs. No one wants to shoot a dog, it's all very sad.


I do know that. Actually, I did post earlier in the thread that is is indeed your legal right to shoot the dogs for killing off livestock, animal control generally will not tell you this. I know because I tried to call animal control for a similar situation once and was told to (do their job for them) catch the dog and bring it to them. I had to look up the laws online to find out what my legal rights actually were.


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## McDsFarm (Dec 21, 2013)

Hmm..as already said above since the dogs don't belong to the neighbor he won't mind if you shoot them anyway. If does mind then he lied of course. There goes his breed stock. Oh well. So I agree with the 3 S rule. My other thought is what condition is the fencing like? Some fence repair might in order as well.


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## mustangglp (Jul 7, 2015)

A couple things here from another Californian check with your county's ordnance most say no more then 4 dogs with out a kennel licence . California is getting real out of control with the gun laws I would print out the county ordnance to hand to law enforcement you probably have every right to protect your livestock! Six of the most tame dogs in a pack will chase livestock
I have been taken over by the city limits here's what the ordnance says.
4-3.104 Misuse of dangerous weapons.
It is unlawful for any person under the age of eighteen, and without the immediate supervision of a parent or guardian or an adult designated by the minor’s parent or guardian, to wilfully fire or wilfully discharge any weapon or device as defined in this chapter within the city limits. In no instance may such weapons be discharged by a minor within one hundred feet of any building or livestock without the permission of the property owner. (Ord. 391, 2002; Ord. 64 § 4-3.104, 1983)
4-3.102 Exemptions: Protection of life, property: Predatory animals.
The provisions of this chapter shall not prohibit the discharge of appropriate firearms when necessary to protect a human life or to destroy or kill any predatory or dangerous animal while defending oneself or another person against an immediate threat of great bodily harm or as otherwise provided by law. (Ord. 64 § 4-3.102, 1983)
Then we have This?
4-3.103 Discharge of firearms or dangerous weapons.
It is unlawful for any person to wilfully discharge any firearm within the city limits except in either private or public archery ranges, shooting galleries and on pistol or rifle ranges, the locations of which have been approved by the Chief of Police, or as otherwise provided by law. (Ord. 391, 2002; Ord. 64 § 4-3.103, 1983)
So as the owner of the property is one allowed to protect live stock.
Someone shot a coyote a few years back and as far as I could see the only thing they could get him for was not using lead free ammunition. Being in central California you might want to use lead free one less thing. Also the dogs are required to be licensed in all of California I believe.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

mustangglp said:


> Someone shot a coyote a few years back and as far as I could see the only thing they could get him for was not using lead free ammunition. Being in central California you might want to use lead free on less thing.


But it WAS lead free. They only charge for the brass and powder!

Seriously, I knew that California has become a communist People's Republic, but I didn't think they would get so vindictive as to charge a man for using lead in an otherwise perfectly legal shoot.


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## mustangglp (Jul 7, 2015)

The coyote was shot in San luis obispo wich is about 20 miles from me and also a complete liberal city most of my neighbors are cool with the country way of life . As far as laws go California is so far gone we basically have no open carry or concealed carry in most of the state after the first of the year all ammunition sales will need to have a background check So no more buying online it sucks trying to buy a life time supply in a year.


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## cking (Jul 25, 2017)

I have a love hate relationship with California. My family and job are tied here, and I love the mountain areas of the state. The rest of it well...its the rest of it. Good news is after sending video of the dogs to the owner, I havent seen or heard their dogs on my property. They havent replied, denied or confirmed they are theirs but Im crossing my fingers they will confine them so they cant roam free and chase whatever they would like. I understand and have read the laws and rights about shooting and defending livestock etc in California. My experience in this state is it could be an expensive experiment to attempt to excercise these rights, so I will avoid it as much as possible. We didnt reinforce the fence as planned over the weekend but plan on doing it today, maybe adding a hotwire and putting the sheep back out again. I know that one day I will be forced to visit this situation again if I continue with sheep, I think the fence improvements and seemed assistance from the owners may delay the inevitable but one day I think it will come up again, just part of having sheep I guess.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

cking said:


> Good news is after sending video of the dogs to the owner, I havent seen or heard their dogs on my property. Go and figure... My experience in this state is it could be an expensive experiment to attempt to excercise these rights, so I will avoid it as much as possible. "Oh, your six dogs are missing? No, I havent seen them. How could I? You said they've never come over here. " See how that works?


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

cking said:


> I have a love hate relationship with California. My family and job are tied here, and I love the mountain areas of the state. The rest of it well...its the rest of it. Good news is after sending video of the dogs to the owner, I havent seen or heard their dogs on my property. They havent replied, denied or confirmed they are theirs but Im crossing my fingers they will confine them so they cant roam free and chase whatever they would like. I understand and have read the laws and rights about shooting and defending livestock etc in California. My experience in this state is it could be an expensive experiment to attempt to excercise these rights, so I will avoid it as much as possible. We didnt reinforce the fence as planned over the weekend but plan on doing it today, maybe adding a hotwire and putting the sheep back out again. I know that one day I will be forced to visit this situation again if I continue with sheep, I think the fence improvements and seemed assistance from the owners may delay the inevitable but one day I think it will come up again, just part of having sheep I guess.


The way I see it, (no offense)is with this mindset if the neighbor's dogs don't defeat your sheep operation, your fear of the laws in California will. Don't tuck tail and run because you don't want legal ramificatons, stand up for yourself. The law is on YOUR side here.

You don't have to (and probably should not) announce to the neighbor or anyone else if something were to happen to his dogs anyway.


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## cking (Jul 25, 2017)

Well, I dont think Im going to tuck tail so to speak, just being careful. Today the breeder next door, reviewed a video and told me they they couldnt tell if that was their dogs for sure. Although they could tell from the video the dogs were not acting in a predatory manner. They said they were patrolling for predators and they probably had heard or smelled a predator that killed our sheep that day and ran over to protect our livestockdfsfs, then that they are returning daily to patrol for those predators. They advised they were entering the sheep pen and darting in and out to check on the livestock for their safety. They also advised they were not chasing, but they would only catch up with livestock to keep a watchful eye on their safety. They told me if their dogs were killing sheep, many more would be dead but their dogs would never harm an animal except a predator and that they were "predator biologists" and trained the dogs so that is was impossible for them to harm livestock. They warned that I should not harm any dogs as I would be responsible unless I had solid proof and images of them physically harming a sheep. They made references to the work the dogs are doing and how they are protecting "our" area. They pretty much made it sound like I should be thankfull for their services. UGH


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

cking said:


> Well, I dont think Im going to tuck tail so to speak, just being careful. Today the breeder next door, reviewed a video and told me they they couldnt tell if that was their dogs for sure. Although they could tell from the video the dogs were not acting in a predatory manner. They said they were patrolling for predators and they probably had heard or smelled a predator that killed our sheep that day and ran over to protect our livestockdfsfs, then that they are returning daily to patrol for those predators. They advised they were entering the sheep pen and darting in and out to check on the livestock for their safety. They also advised they were not chasing, but they would only catch up with livestock to keep a watchful eye on their safety. They told me if their dogs were killing sheep, many more would be dead but their dogs would never harm an animal except a predator and that they were "predator biologists" and trained the dogs so that is was impossible for them to harm livestock. They warned that I should not harm any dogs as I would be responsible unless I had solid proof and images of them physically harming a sheep. They made references to the work the dogs are doing and how they are protecting "our" area. They pretty much made it sound like I should be thankfull for their services. UGH


Sounds like the neighbors are full of it. You have video evidence....please don't buy that story. And ignore their "warning" to not harm any dogs as well..,. Their dogs are at large and that alone is not OK of the owners.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Nice. So, we have established that your neighbors know nothing of sheep and very little of dogs. Your property, their dogs. Are your sheep on their property? The thing about guardian dogs, the sheep have to be used to them. Without being used to them, they create stress, even if they are not killing them. That can impact everything from abortions to rate of gain, all monetary damages to you. 

Your only solution is to get your own livestock guardian dogs, more, bigger and tougher than theirs. Or build a fence to keep theirs out. Which is sad, because what is really needed is a fence to keep theirs in. Therein lies the fallacy of the entire livestock guardian dog industry. If you build a fence to effectively contain them, at that point, you really don't need them. They are designed for remote nomadic herds, but not for neighbors.

I have had sheep for a very long time. By the time I buy one of the ridiculous things that don't live very long, for an incredibly high price, pay vet bills, the feed bill, (Oh, and make that two, because they work better in pairs) and build a fence to keep them from going over and guarding the neighbors cows, or trying to kill his chihuahua because it is a perceived threat, I figure I am money ahead feeding a coyote now and again. Especially considering that once I had a fence that would contain them, a coyote couldn't get in, either.


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## cking (Jul 25, 2017)

Were going to try some barb wire at ground and 6" along the connecting fenceline. There are two or three spots we have found where they are pushing and digging under, we staked those places today and will try to keep them out . Im afraid its only a matter of time though until they see the sheep nearby and find a way to get through. Its about a 600' run for the connecting fence so it wont be a cheap investment but maybe I need to think about electric fence? It would be a pain to maintain / weed etc as it is the very back of my property, the roughest terrain, rocky and somewhat steep in places.


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## mustangglp (Jul 7, 2015)

Barb wire will help it will need to be tight electric would be better my dogs respect the electric fence more then my Sheep I would be mean and hang some thing interesting on every so often like a small piece of bacon


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Lets take what your neighbor said and replace the word "dog" with "sex offender son" and "sheep" with "kids"..



cking said:


> Today the breeder next door, reviewed a video and told me they they couldnt tell if that was their sex offender son for sure. Although they could tell from the video the sex offender son was not acting in a predatory manner. They said they were patrolling for predators and they probably had heard a predator and ran over to protect our kids, then that they are returning daily to patrol for those predators. They advised he were entering the backyard where our kids play and darting in and out to check on the kids for their safety. They also advised he were not chasing, but he would only catch up with the kids to keep a watchful eye on their safety. They told me if their son was harming kids, many more would be affected but their son would never again harm an child except a predator and that they were "predator biologists" and trained the son so that is was impossible for them to harm children. They warned that I should not harm their son as I would be responsible unless I had solid proof and images of them physically harming a child. They made references to the work their son is doing and how they are protecting "our" area. They pretty much made it sound like I should be thankfull for their services. UGH


So you spoke to them in person and have at least a pointed response. I'm not an attorney so I'll only speak from experiences, all future correspondence should be in the form of certified letter/mail for the purposes of showing documentation. Whether the neighbor gets it or not should no longer be your concern and whether the county gets involved or you choose to self govern is your decision. I can say that when someone, who on one hand refutes what you claim while at the same time dictating that you not harm their property, cannot be expected to cooperate. Personally, I've never been a big fan of people who show arrogance to courtesy and behave as if their faux neighborhood seniority trumps your own personal rights.

"Neighbor" threads always make for great reading but it is horrible for those living it.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

You could ditch the sheep idea for a while and start a free range organic pit bull rescue.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

cking said:


> They warned that I should not harm any dogs as I would be responsible unless I had solid proof and images of them physically harming a sheep.


I'd say the dead dogs *on your property* is all the "solid proof" required.
They also told you it "couldn't be" their dogs anyway.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

barnbilder said:


> You could ditch the sheep idea for a while and start a free range organic pit bull rescue.


Free range organic, that's funny!!


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I'd say the dead dogs *on your property* is all the "solid proof" required.
> They also told you it "couldn't be" their dogs anyway.


Yes, this neighbor is a jerk. Forget about being nice, and do you REALLY want these predator dogs procreating? So what happens when said dogs bring their puppies over to teach the tricks of the trade? 

Take care of the problem and be done with it. The neighbor can't take any legal action against you, his dogs were at large. Does he have a kennel license, btw?


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

I'm dying here.. what is the breed ?
I raise Maremma LGD
I have no doubt that if left to themselves to provide food for themselves, they would kill livestock .. why not ?
they are still dogs. and a pack of dogs of any breed is a pack of animals without a brain to share..
i have lots of chickens of different colors.
my male LGD can tell the difference if I add new chickens to the flock. don't ask me how ..
he will harass the newbies for a couple of days until he figures out that they belong here..


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

cking said:


> Well, I dont think Im going to tuck tail so to speak, just being careful. Today the breeder next door, reviewed a video and told me they they couldnt tell if that was their dogs for sure. Although they could tell from the video the dogs were not acting in a predatory manner. They said they were patrolling for predators and they probably had heard or smelled a predator that killed our sheep that day and ran over to protect our livestockdfsfs, then that they are returning daily to patrol for those predators. They advised they were entering the sheep pen and darting in and out to check on the livestock for their safety. They also advised they were not chasing, but they would only catch up with livestock to keep a watchful eye on their safety. They told me if their dogs were killing sheep, many more would be dead but their dogs would never harm an animal except a predator and that they were "predator biologists" and trained the dogs so that is was impossible for them to harm livestock. They warned that I should not harm any dogs as I would be responsible unless I had solid proof and images of them physically harming a sheep. They made references to the work the dogs are doing and how they are protecting "our" area. They pretty much made it sound like I should be thankfull for their services. UGH


I hate you are having this trouble. You have gone above and beyond, imho. My final piece of friendly advice is to quit worrying about being sued or a neighbor being mad, if you are acting legally and responsibly. If you allow yourself to get trapped into that line of thinking (worrying about being sued for protecting your property and rights), you have willingly subjugated your rights and well being to others. That is no way to live life to me. But, as I stipulated before that is your decision.


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## trainv (Apr 30, 2013)

cking said:


> They said they were patrolling for predators and they probably had heard or smelled a predator that killed our sheep that day and ran over to protect our livestockdfsfs, then that they are returning daily to patrol for those predators. They advised they were entering the sheep pen and darting in and out to check on the livestock for their safety


wow!! I would never have thought up a line of BS like that!!!


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## Mike CHS (Apr 3, 2011)

I don't envy your situation but I would be shooting those dogs. You have been given some good advice but when it comes down to it you have to live there.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

we have had to shoot a dog that was a problem with our sheep. I hope never to have to do it again but if necessary I would. I love dogs. Shooting them is a last resort for us. I would send the neighbors a certified letter (written or signed by an attorney if possible) warning them of the possible consequences if their dogs are not contained and hint at punitive as well as real damages as well as losing their dogs. And tell them you have photographic evidence to back up your lawsuit.
Obviously you have to protect your sheep but you haven't shot the dogs yet so you might as well put the fear of God into the neighbors and maybe they will step up out of fear of the consequences.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Lisa in WA said:


> we have had to shoot a dog that was a problem with our sheep. I hope never to have to do it again but if necessary I would. I love dogs. Shooting them is a last resort for us. I would send the neighbors a certified letter (written or signed by an attorney if possible) warning them of the possible consequences if their dogs are not contained and hint at punitive as well as real damages as well as losing their dogs. And tell them you have photographic evidence to back up your lawsuit.
> Obviously you have to protect your sheep but you haven't shot the dogs yet so you might as well put the fear of God into the neighbors and maybe they will step up out of fear of the consequences.


I disagree on the second part of the post...announcing to your neighbors YOU are the reason their dogs are about to be suddenly missing, sounds like a great way to start a neighborhood war. Why live in fear of reprucussions, just to make a point?
The OP already addressed the issue with the dogs' owner, owner sounds dismissive of the problem (yet seems to have contained the dogs....for now...).

Why get all snarky and make threats or otherwise provoke the situation with the neighbor. I think SSS is a much wiser course of action.
"What dogs?" Is all the OP needs to say when the owner comes looking for them...lol


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

ShannonR said:


> I disagree on the second part of the post...announcing to your neighbors YOU are the reason their dogs are about to be suddenly missing, sounds like a great way to start a neighborhood war. Why live in fear of reprucussions, just to make a point?
> The OP already addressed the issue with the dogs' owner, owner sounds dismissive of the problem (yet seems to have contained the dogs....for now...).
> 
> Why get all snarky and make threats or otherwise provoke the situation with the neighbor. I think SSS is a much wiser course of action.
> "What dogs?" Is all the OP needs to say when the owner comes looking for them...lol


You are more than welcome to agree or disagree.
I think your desire for the OP to kill the dogs as soon as possible has been vehemently expressed by you and doesn't need to be repeated yet again. I get it. You want the dogs dead.
I was offering another point of view. No need to argue about it.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

With the precedent being set in many places, the sage old advice of SSS is becoming outdated. The shut up portion needs emphasis at the beginning, instead of after the fact. You shoot someones companion animal, these days, and it's not out of the realm of possibility for police with warrants to come look for freshly disturbed earth. At that point, you better have some video footage of the dogs doing bad things to livestock, or it is going to be your word against the dog owners, and up to a judge to determine whether you are guilty of animal abuse, or justified in killing the dogs. The times they are a changing, and you had best either know your laws and the leanings of the people that enforce them, or be very secretive. Announcing your intentions before they go missing is not a good way to be secretive, and it won't look good to a judge. If the judge is a dog lover that is detached from livestock raising, you are in serious trouble. 

Animal control showing up and taking pictures of dead and maimed sheep, a dead dog, possibly with sheep wool in it's teeth, just after the incident, will look better to most judges than the fact that you killed someones dog and hid it's body, and made no effort to contact owners or authorities. Video would be good, too. Without those things, you better hide it good, preferably not on your premises, and say nothing, to anyone, before or after the fact.

I'm not trying to push any specific agenda, just stating the trends I have seen. I watch cases pretty closely when they make the news. I have had sheep a long time. There was a time when dogs were shot because they "looked like a sheep killer", and everybody was OK with that. Those days are gone, and SSS advice based on the way grandpa did it might not serve you well today. A lot of it comes down to your local animal control and how they view and want to pursue things.


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## cking (Jul 25, 2017)

I advised the owners of the dog that I would have to defend the sheep in the event I saw dogs chasing or worrying the sheep. She again contested that the dogs were not chasing but instead "catching up" and were not worrying but instead "checking on". She still states that she cannot tell from the 1080p video if the dogs were hers. I told her that in my interpretation of the law, they were the same , chasing "catching up" and worrying "checking on" and I am fully prepared to shoot the dogs in the event they are doing so. That was Monday last week. I never received another response from her however I havent seen or heard the dogs on my property since then. Animal control did come back and they left a trap but it was empty after three days. So we checked the fence, reinforced it, and have put the sheep back out to the land. I have to say it is nerve racking, watching the girls go out to the back of our property out of sight (hilly and trees). Ive been checking on them often, and have set up some motion lights at the back of our property so that I could at least tell if something was moving in the dark. So far so good. But Im keeping the guns close and the slider open so I can hear well. In fact Im not sleeping well because of it. I still think I will add a hot wire to the back fence just for a little feeling of security. When I started into this sheep idea, I didnt think it would be an issue if there were predators etc. I was a hunter for years and blood, game, slaughter etc never bothered me. Its funny how the day that we found those three dead and the two little lambs hiding, locked up in a ball from fear, its hard to get those images out of my head. It would have been better if it was just a natural predator, a mountain lion or coyote. But instead it was those damn dogs, and it drives me nuts.


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## cking (Jul 25, 2017)

[email protected] said:


> I'm dying here.. what is the breed ?
> I raise Maremma LGD
> I have no doubt that if left to themselves to provide food for themselves, they would kill livestock .. why not ?
> they are still dogs. and a pack of dogs of any breed is a pack of animals without a brain to share..
> ...


Akbash


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

cking said:


> I advised the owners of the dog that I would have to defend the sheep in the event I saw dogs chasing or worrying the sheep. She again contested that the dogs were not chasing but instead "catching up" and were not worrying but instead "checking on". She still states that she cannot tell from the 1080p video if the dogs were hers. I told her that in my interpretation of the law, they were the same , chasing "catching up" and worrying "checking on" and I am fully prepared to shoot the dogs in the event they are doing so. That was Monday last week. I never received another response from her however I havent seen or heard the dogs on my property since then. Animal control did come back and they left a trap but it was empty after three days. So we checked the fence, reinforced it, and have put the sheep back out to the land. I have to say it is nerve racking, watching the girls go out to the back of our property out of sight (hilly and trees). Ive been checking on them often, and have set up some motion lights at the back of our property so that I could at least tell if something was moving in the dark. So far so good. But Im keeping the guns close and the slider open so I can hear well. In fact Im not sleeping well because of it. I still think I will add a hot wire to the back fence just for a little feeling of security. When I started into this sheep idea, I didnt think it would be an issue if there were predators etc. I was a hunter for years and blood, game, slaughter etc never bothered me. Its funny how the day that we found those three dead and the two little lambs hiding, locked up in a ball from fear, its hard to get those images out of my head. It would have been better if it was just a natural predator, a mountain lion or coyote. But instead it was those damn dogs, and it drives me nuts.


Best of luck with this. Do the best you can with it. It does get easier, though it always stinks to have to kill someone else's pet. Hopefully, it won't come to that. In my opinion, you have done way more than reasonably expected to prevent what I expect is the inevitable. When you get livestock that are most likely bound for slaughter, the dichotomy is not lost on me that you would do what you can to defend them until their demise. I still remember the first "pet" that I had to eliminate for threatening them. I also remember the carcass of my lamb and the look in the eyes of the survivors. I don't hesitate anymore to do what has to be done as their shepherd.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

We had an interest g experience once with our dogs.
Our cabin is up on a little hill and we were siting on the front porch. Heard a crashing and saw a deer go running by thru the tall grass followed by a coyote in broad daylight. Two of our Pyrenees were in the rear coming after the 'yote.

About ten minutes late w got s call from our completely obnoxious neighbor screeching that our dogs were chasing deer. Hung up before we could tell her what was going on. We called her boyfriend and let him know. My Pyrs never went after a sheep, deer or any prey animal but people not familiar with LGDs had a tendency to assume that any big dog would.

So I guess what I'm wondering...is there any possibility the sheep were killed by a predator and the dogs were more in the situation my dogs were in? Did you see blood on them?


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## cking (Jul 25, 2017)

Sure I guess there is a chance it was something else that killed the three sheep. I didnt see blood on the dogs. But like i mentioned, there was no damage to the sheep so no blood spilt. Which leads to question the predator killing with no/little damage. To be correct, there was some slight tears at the legs and hind quarters, but no spilt carcass or mangled throat etc. But these dogs didnt allow me to get too close, perhaps within 20 ft. Also, the same dogs were on camera, security camera from multiple angles on the day of the kill, a day before and many subsequent days after. Every video showed the dogs and my sheep, but not another predator. These dogs were seen by my two eyes chasing two young lambs. The lambs were clumsy as they were very young but also hid in brush and ultimately stayed still playing dead or frozen in fear, I believe this stopped the dogs from chasing them as they were no fun to chase, but I could be wrong about that, Ive wondered how the lambs survived when the three adults were killed, one adult was the mother of the two lambs, so that might shed some light. Alot of it was quick, and somewhat of a blur, I am positive I saw the same dogs on my property as on the video chasing young lambs, that I know. I did track the dry dirt roads for tracks, Im an experienced hunter and would recognize a mountain lion track, although a coyote I wouldnt be skilled enough to differentiate. Again, only canine and sheep tracks. You should remember that I discussed this with the assumed owner of the dogs over a period of 3-5 days. For some of those days the dogs would return to my property. After I advised I would shoot to kill, I dont hear them or see evidence on my property anymore. In the end, the sheep are highly stressed by the dogs, no matter if they were the ultimate cause of the death of three or not. . They were on my property uninvited and I personally witnessed them chase and worry lambs and sheep, I also saw them on video constantly pester the front fenced area that we put them in for safety. Myself, Im not a believer that these dogs were merely crossing over/under multiple acres and fences only to "check on" our sheep which they have no bond or experience with. The assumed owner implied that these dogs are super heros and are out to save the world and protect all the innocent against the great assumed predator. She has stories on facebook about the older dogs leaving for days coming back with injuries and praises them online for their service to protecting the area. I think they are just dogs, dogs that are being left to roam at will, in a pack of 6.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

cking said:


> Sure I guess there is a chance it was something else that killed the three sheep. I didnt see blood on the dogs. But like i mentioned, there was no damage to the sheep so no blood spilt. Which leads to question the predator killing with no/little damage. To be correct, there was some slight tears at the legs and hind quarters, but no spilt carcass or mangled throat etc. But these dogs didnt allow me to get too close, perhaps within 20 ft. Also, the same dogs were on camera, security camera from multiple angles on the day of the kill, a day before and many subsequent days after. Every video showed the dogs and my sheep, but not another predator. These dogs were seen by my two eyes chasing two young lambs. The lambs were clumsy as they were very young but also hid in brush and ultimately stayed still playing dead or frozen in fear, I believe this stopped the dogs from chasing them as they were no fun to chase, but I could be wrong about that, Ive wondered how the lambs survived when the three adults were killed, one adult was the mother of the two lambs, so that might shed some light. Alot of it was quick, and somewhat of a blur, I am positive I saw the same dogs on my property as on the video chasing young lambs, that I know. I did track the dry dirt roads for tracks, Im an experienced hunter and would recognize a mountain lion track, although a coyote I wouldnt be skilled enough to differentiate. Again, only canine and sheep tracks. You should remember that I discussed this with the assumed owner of the dogs over a period of 3-5 days. For some of those days the dogs would return to my property. After I advised I would shoot to kill, I dont hear them or see evidence on my property anymore. In the end, the sheep are highly stressed by the dogs, no matter if they were the ultimate cause of the death of three or not. . They were on my property uninvited and I personally witnessed them chase and worry lambs and sheep, I also saw them on video constantly pester the front fenced area that we put them in for safety. Myself, Im not a believer that these dogs were merely crossing over/under multiple acres and fences only to "check on" our sheep which they have no bond or experience with. The assumed owner implied that these dogs are super heros and are out to save the world and protect all the innocent against the great assumed predator. She has stories on facebook about the older dogs leaving for days coming back with injuries and praises them online for their service to protecting the area. I think they are just dogs, dogs that are being left to roam at will, in a pack of 6.


It sounds like it was the dogs. Ironically, it sounds like you need a couple of good LGDs to protect your sheep. Hopefully the dingbat neighbor values her dogs enough to keep them home from now on, but if you live in an area with mountain lions and coyotes, you really should have something guarding them.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

If you build a fence that would keep your livestock guardian dogs from wandering the neighborhood chasing deer that coyotes switched them on to, (a common trick for pursued coyotes to pull) at that point, you should not have much of a predator problem, or a dog problem either. Given their short effective lifespan, health problems and desire to wander, having a pair of properly contained, trained and capable livestock guardian dogs on site in the rare case of a cougar attack will require more expenditure than you are likely to recoup with a sheep operation, unless you sell puppies from your LGDs to supplement their expense. Of course, if you have breeders, you will need extra backup LGDs. Be careful not to become your neighbor, who is not all that uncommon in the world of LGDs.


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## cking (Jul 25, 2017)

Well the saga continues. Long story short is a sheep was bitten today, same dogs. This time I have pretty clear video, happened to have the game cam setup at the right spot where I guessed they were coming in. I had left to work about an hour earlier, and all had been quite for a few days, my wife was home and luckily just caught a glimpse and started yelling at the dogs, it was just at the time the dogs had caught one from the flock and started to pin it down, lucky for her she walked away with a bite on her flank. But with the video I have now, I feel very comfortable pulling the trigger. Dont get me wrong, beautiful animals those akbash dogs, but what can I really do? They paw and push and shove under my fence as shown on the game cam. Pack of 4 this time. I guess I really need to invest in an electric fence, low and high. I hope I can post the youtube link with no problems, should be a video of dogs on game cam entering property, then the incident footage from 4 cameras, then dogs leaving on game cam. Home security cameras are an hour off therabouts, explaining the time difference. I think with this footage I could easily defend a lawsuit in the event of death or injury to neighbors breeding dogs. on incident video 5:11:47 notice dog ambush flock from the top right. 5:14:30 dogs pin sheep in corner behind barn. 5:14:55 two dogs on right side stop spin and pin and bite flank of sheep. Other two on left start to join but this is when they look towards camera as my wife saw them and started screaming at them. Shes not comfortable with the rifle, but in this case it was all moving so fast as the video shows, there wasnt much time for a clear shot. entering 



 incident 



 leaving


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Looks like a day or two off from work and a deer blind or some such should bring the matter to a close.


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## mustangglp (Jul 7, 2015)

That sucks but about what everyone knew if it was me I would show the video to the dogs owner and telling them next time they will be shot as soon as the set foot on my property . Going be tough to get more then one .sadly I don't think you will get any help from animal control.


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## cking (Jul 25, 2017)

Ive sent the same videos to the "owner". Not looking forward to having to put these beautiful dogs down....Dont get me wrong, killed plenty of game, "retired" california bear hound hunter. Its just going to be a shame, dogs are dogs.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I just reread your other thread. 
Everyone always says I'm over the top and nutty when I suggest how to build a fence. 
Start at ground level with either a thin concrete 2 foot deep curtain in the ground or 2 feet of field fence laid to the outside of where you're going to build the up right portion. 
Use 6 feet of 2 x 4 woven wire field fence. Place a hot wire 1 foot up and 1 foot out on the outside of the field fence. 
Place a hot-wire 6 inches above the field fence and another 6inches above that. 
Be sure to put the lower hotwire and the upper hot wires on separate chargers. 
Yes it's a lot but with sheep it's always about what you are fencing out not what's inside.

After all that you have had to deal with don't you wish this is how you had started?


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