# Pregnancy test



## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

Is there a pregnancy test for horses? 
That little rescue I took in whom the lady swears that her stud only attacked but did not breed...
Had a neighbor come by interested in a small horse, she looked at Shell's teeth and told me that she did not think she was even two yet, and she swears that Shell is pregnant and she doesn't think that Shell will survive the birth.
Now besides having a vet come out trip charge/evaluation charge/plus whatever else charge...is there an OTC pregnancy test or send blood to be tested?


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## ShyAnne (Jun 18, 2008)

Wee Foal is a equine preg test. Its urine based so you can do it at home. wee foal 38 is to be usd from 38-120 days after breeding and wee foal 120 is from 120-300 days.
Ive used them may times and its accurate and easy to do. The hardest part is collecting the urine lol.
Ive collected many ways, from taping paper towels to the bum to direct stream collection in a mason jar
Just be sure to read, read and reread the directions! Follow exactly and best wishes!

Also, its possible for her to survive, although young. Proper nutrition is the key. Have a vet on call in case she has trouble.

Have any recent pics?


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

You can also send blood into to biotracking. www.biotracking.com


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## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

Thank you! Am going to email previous owner and find out exactly when the stud "attacked" her so I have a date to expect. I did increase her grain consumption slowly since she has been here, that coupled with mineral block, hay, and grass consumption she has filled out really well. 
THIS IS WHEN SHE FIRST ARRIVED









THIS IS AFTER SHE HAS BEEN HERE 4 WEEKS









I didn't want to give her to much to soon. I thought that belly might be worms or grass/hay. Need to take another pic the women that looked at her yesterday said her belly goes further back then a hay belly would. What do you think?


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## ShyAnne (Jun 18, 2008)

A lot of times when a horse is malnourished, as they start gaining weight it will give them a pot bellied look. This may be her issue, but knowing she was in with a stud it certainly wont hurt to check her.
She already looks much better than a month ago. Have you wormed her? ( I'm sure you have)

Edited to add that foals with the pot bellied look usually need higher protein, this could also be contributing to her belly.She sure is cute.


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

if she is bred i dont know that i would be giveing alot of grain sence that will help the foal grow larger than she is able to deliver, good hay and Beet pulp with a little grain and all the grass she can eat, hopefully she is just in that gawky young stage with a hay belly, she will grow out of that, if she is bred its possible she will do fine, but being young its going to be worth haveing a Vet on call.


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## ShyAnne (Jun 18, 2008)

I agree with KSA , alfalfa would be a good option in getting her protein level up. Also the calcium will help her during lactation. you could give her the pellets, starting in a small amount. Calf manna could also be supplemented, however I personally put all my bred mares on Farnmans Mare and foal supplement.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

A friend has always used a human OTC pregnancy test and it's always been right.

Same friend takes in under nourished horses. Never feeds alfalfa or grain. Just free choice fed Bermuda hay. Within 3 months, they look like they should.

Your horse didn't lose the weight over night, don't expect her to gain over night. Push too much and you'll have vet bills.

I've never fed alfalfa or grain. No one I know personally does.


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

Sweetie, you cannot starve a foal smaller <hugs>. The foal needs protein, minerals, etc, everything it's momma needs to make proper bone growth and connective tissue, etc.

I had a filly come to me that had been bred at 14 months. Add 11 months gestation, and she foaled out at age 2 yrs, 1 month old. The foal was very small at birth, but "caught up" within 8 weeks.

Usually, mother nature will not grow a foal inside a mare that she cannot safely deliver. (_usually_).

This filly is growing, herself, and is ALSO growing a foal, so she NEEDS calories! Problems at birthing can happen from poor nutrition and poor uterine tone, poor abdominal strength, and low energy. I've been breeding for over 15 years, and I've never had a problem with a foal too big for momma's hips; only problems when momma was weak, or ill, or had other issues.

A pregnant mare should be getting a ration of about 16% protein, 6-8% fat, and all the hay she can eat. Alfalfa hay is a nice choice IF you can get horse-quality, not dairy-cow quality. Dairy cow quality can have huge protein percentages: like 21-29%!! The horse quality is more like 12-16%, exactly where you need it to be.

If feeding a nice grass hay, then your pregnant, growing filly can eat 3-4 lbs of a broodmare grain (Omelene 300 is a nice choice) 2x per day, and can even get a 2-3 lb "lunch" in her 3rd trimester.

Good luck!


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

Rogo said:


> A friend has always used a human OTC pregnancy test and it's always been right.
> 
> Same friend takes in under nourished horses. Never feeds alfalfa or grain. Just free choice fed Bermuda hay. Within 3 months, they look like they should.
> 
> ...


Rogo, this poor filly OBVIOUSLY needs grain or Alfalfa or _some kind _of calorie increase; look at her condition! :stars:


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

it must be differint in Horses then, in all other livestock its reccomended to not over grain durring pregnancy IF their is concern for the size of the baby in relation to the size of the mother in cases where the mother was too young or not as developed as she could be, or if the male used could possibly throw too large of an offspring, it seems feeding grain especially in late pregnancy to Cattle, Goats, and Sheep causes extra growth in the fetus that other wise would not have happend,


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Not sure who you're replying to, Jill, but I've raised a lot of foals. No abortions. All healthy foals. Youngsters and older and trained all sold well.

I haven't have a vet bill for 30+ years for any of my house pets or livestock. 
Never have had colic.

The menu has been the same all these years for the stock, DE (has 28 trace minerals - and no one knows how/why it works like it does) and Bermuda.

I've never had any stalls, pens, corrals. All roam free on the acreage. 
I did have foaling 'stalls.' Each was 1/2 acre with a loafing shed (3 sides and a roof). None of the mares delivered inside. When the foals were 3 weeks old, mare and foal were turned out to roam free with the rest of the stock.

What I do has worked here.

All the vets I know haven't made any money from me, but agree to the way I raise my critters....which, btw, isn't unusual. Many don't feed alfalfa or bagged feed.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Rogo said:


> Not sure who you're replying to, Jill, but I've raised a lot of foals. No abortions. All healthy foals. Youngsters and older and trained all sold well.
> 
> I haven't have a vet bill for 30+ years for any of my house pets or livestock.
> Never have had colic.
> ...



So what? To quote another poster,a broken watch is still right twice a day. Just because whatever you are doing works for you, in your situation and your location, doesn't mean it will work for everyone. Discounting everything posted that disagrees with your 'method' offhand isn't right and it makes you seem pompous.

Of course the vets have agreed with you, what good would it do them to argue? Your wonder dirt and hay is all you're ever going to use.

I refuse to believe that you've NEVER had an animal die that could have been prevented by a vet visit (unless of course, it's one of those 'this here whistle is good for keepin' elephants away.' "Does it work?" 'Do you see any elephants?' type of comments. ) nor do I believe that you've never had an illness or a mare that was pulled down by a foal.

Nothing in life is an absolute. 


I knew a man like you here in TN, always had the answer for everything and made himself out to be an expert in all things equine- the best horses, the most well behaved horses, the healthiest horses, the best feed, the best methods. He turned out to be a pathological liar with a rap sheet a mile long and I busted him for starving several head to death.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

In all fairness, Rogo never said those things. She said what she does works well for her, where she is. She gave information in a matter of fact way that a person can compile and make their own conclusion with. She made no conclusion for anyone.

I believe the simplicity of her care and, more than anything, her letting her animals roam, does indeed cause good health. I know the simpler I keep things with mine, the better they do. 

High quality hay provides a lot of nutrients and calories. There's no reason a mare couldn't foal and milk off of it. 

I think one reason people think they need hay is they don't have a good mineral to start with. They buy a feed with minerals and their horses improve greatly. It wasn't as much the energy or protein added, but hte minerals and vitamins. Quality hay and minerals (without or with low iron) go a very long way in animal health. 

I am still confused by her not adding salt though and wonder if there aren't salt deposits somewhere her animals roam. Horses have a high sodium requirement among livestock, and DE doesn't have enough.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

No, but her statements allude that horses need nothing other than bermuda hay and de. Any time anyone says anything regarding additional feed, she's right there saying that hers get nothing other than that and are fine. And that noone in that area feeds anything else.
If that works for her, fine. But it may not for anyone else and they shouldn't be made to feel bad for doing what is best for their animals.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nobody should be made to feel bad about doing the best they can for their stock and that should apply to everybody. 

It could be because I'm a bit older or maybe because I've dealt with the old rancher but there is a certain amount of pride in sharing what is felt to be a tried and true method because they do have animals that are thriving. The old rancher fails to remember when he's telling someone what works real well for him, that his horses run on way bigger pastures than most people could ever dream of owning and I do think that contributes and it seems to me that Rogo is the same. 

Another thing that the old rancher and Rogo have in common is hybrid vigor. He rides grade horses and she rides mules and we have to remember the more pure bloodlines can result in a more delicate animal. 

They also speak of remarkable health in their animals and I can't speak for Rogo but I can speak for the old rancher and while he virtually never has to call a vet, he has a terrific arsenal of good old remedies that work very well.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I don't know where Rogo lives but have to say I've raised horses most of my life, much of it in Montana, more recently (last 10 years) in Kentucky. The quality of grass and hay in the two places is drastically different. It took me 3 years or more to figure out what I was doing "wrong" in Kentucky, because I was doing the same things, feeding the same, as I had in Montana and it wasn't working!

In Montana my mares were out 24/7 on grass, with access to water and salt blocks. I did not grain. In the winter, they had free choice alfalfa or alfalfa/grass mix hay. Again, no grain, no supplements other than trace mineralized salt and again, outside 24/7 with shelter in brush/trees. They were not in barns or sheds except for being brought in to foal if the weather was really bad.

In the 10 years with warmbloods and sportponies in Montana, I lost one foal from a TB mare I bought two months before she was due to foal, to dummy foal syndrome. None of my mares required any assistance foaling and that one foal was the only one I lost.

When I moved to Kentucky I found I had to supplement the mares with grain. Nursing mares could not maintain their weight on just grass, even though they had all they could eat. They required grain, some of them required a lot of grain. It was difficult to find good alfalfa hay here and they could not maintain their weight on grass hay either, so again they required supplemental grain. It actually took me 3 or 4 years to really get a handle on how to feed here in Kentucky.

However, even with those issues I never had a mare that required assistance foaling and only lost one foal, that one probably due to fescue toxicity issues, as it was before domperidone was available.

I had healthy mares and foals in Montana on what was basically pasture in the summer and hay in the winter. They were vaccinated and wormed routinely, but other than salt they received no supplemental feed. In Kentucky, if I had continued this regimen for the broodmares, I would not have been able to maintain healthy mares and foals. For whatever reason, grass and hay here do not have (apparantly) the nutritional values of the grass and hay that was available in Montana.

Consequently, I think "good care" absolutely depends on where you live and what the circumstances are. You may be able to maintain horses on hay/pasture with no grain and supplements or you may not be able to. The horses themselves will provide the guidelines.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

SFM, I agree.

And back to the filly in question. While there are plenty of ways to find out if she is bred, I think in her case, it might be a good idea to have a vet look at her because you really need more information than if she is or if she isn't. She's certainly gaining weight and you've done well in a month but her condition and age would make it a poor idea to allow her to have a foal. In my opinion, the best possible option might be to have her aborted if she is bred but you need an idea of how far along she is and only your vet can establish that as fact and counsel you on the safest way to handle the situation. If this is the best possible course of action, you need professional input and time is a significant issue. 

If she were bred and the vet felt it was unsafe to abort her, you're going to need a very good relatioship with your vet to see her and a foal through to the favorable conclusion. 

In theory, I agree with Jill and she shouldn't be bred and if she was, she should have either absorbed or slipped it but stranger things have happened. While I see definite improvement in her, I think that given her initial condition and the fact that you said you were told the stud had injured her jaw, it might be a good idea to have her seen by a vet.


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## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

I agree. I think having a vet see her will put my mind at ease a bit. And I am still fighting an infection in that jaw area. As of right now with my area it is very hard to find alfalfa hay, so the horses are getting the same hay I feed my goats which is a brome/orchard/clover mix and the same grain mix as my goats mix of sweet/alfalfa pellets/beet pellets but for the horses I added Prime pellets which I was thinking of changing to mare and foal. The pasture grass here has already started to dry/die out so am getting the hay in rounds for free feeding. I am trying to be very patient with her gaining weight and looking better, actually both look better but Snick wasn't to bad to begin with the difference being I can now sit on her bareback and it is more comfortable . Both of their winter coats are growing in well and the hair looks good. I look at Shell's hooves and I see allot of waviness, though the hooves appear sound.


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## ShyAnne (Jun 18, 2008)

I would second the vet seeing her...
I am curious, was your friend the one who determined her age? Or did a vet determine she was roughly 2? You can tell by the teeth, and if you want to post pics of her teeth, I am sure some of us would be happy to help you come to a conclusion. 
I didnt know about the jaw infection. But if she is young, fighting infection and in foal she really should see a dr  
Hopefully she isnt in foal, and you can get the jaw and weight issue under control. 
Kudos again for taking care of her


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

wintrrwolf, the waves often indicate change in diet. You mention infection and that should have cleared up by now so she really does need to be seen by a vet. As long as she's figthing that, it's going to be hard for to gain condition. 

I can't remember if you were actively treating the infection or under vet care but you need antibiotics and if you were prescribed something, it needs to be changed. You may also want to apply compresses if the infection is on the outside. I usually just use hot water and either salt or epsom salts and I apply till my little pail gets cold and as many times a day as I can. Ideally 3 or more.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Jeez, didn't mean to stir the pot here. Just stating what's done here. Thought that was what the forums were for, to share what we do.


=== I am still confused by her not adding salt though and wonder if there aren't salt deposits somewhere her animals roam. Horses have a high sodium requirement among livestock, and DE doesn't have enough. ===


I've stated before, but perhaps folks missed it. Of the 28 trace minerals in food grade 100% diatomaceous earth (DE), one of them is sodium. When I started feeding DE years ago, the stock quit using the trace mineral salt blocks on their own. Probably due to DE having more of the minerals they need. Sodium is salt, SO SALT *IS* FED. DE is fed daily to everything that breathes around here.

I have a chart with all the amounts of the trace minerals in the DE I use. If you want, I'll post it.


=== I refuse to believe that you've NEVER had an animal die that could have been prevented by a vet visit ===


Believe me, with the investment in the critters, I would definitely call a vet if one was needed. But I've had no sickness/diseases.

A friend asked why I was innoculating my house pets and livestock since I fed DE. If they can't get sickness/diseases, why pump the poison. Told her it was due to years of indoctrination. But I did finally quit years ago. 


=== High quality hay provides a lot of nutrients and calories. There's no reason a mare couldn't foal and milk off of it. ===

=== her statements allude that horses need nothing other than bermuda hay and de ===


My mares had a lot of milk. Any of them could have taken on another foal after weaning their 6 month old.

Any vet here will not recommend feeding alfalfa for equine. They say it's too hot of a feed and too high in protein. And they will tell you that grain isn't needed by most critters. One of the vets has a degree in equine nutrition and raises Arabs, not that it matters! Bermuda is fed by many with no other feeds fed. I do tough mountain riding with these folks and their horses are long lived. Quite a few of the horses are in their 30's. You'd never guess their age if you saw them.

It sounds like many of you don't know about DE although it's been used for thousands of years. Its uses have been handed down by word of mouth.

Guess I'll get yelled at again, but here goes. I also take DE daily. At 71 years old, I have no prescriptions, no over the counter stuff, not even aspirin in my house. They're not needed. Haven't had the need to see a doctor for many years. No colds, no flu (no, I do not take flu shots), no nothing. I've seen and heard about DE reversing just about every "incurable" disease in critters and humans. It got rid of the conditions I had.

I know many physicians and vets who take/feed DE but won't tell their patients/clients about it because they know they won't see them again. When I've asked both professions about the oath they took to heal, they all say the same thing - I have to feed my family. Sad, isn't it.

I've only heard about one physician who was bothered a lot by his patients who had alzheimers and he gives them DE because of the reversal success he's had.

No one knows how or why DE works like it does. I really don't care; just glad it works. 

I live where there's 325 days/year of sunshine. It rarely rains here in the desert. We don't have soil, we have sand. Sand storms happen. Temperatures in the sun are in the hundreds for 6 months a year. Central Arizona.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

*Rogo* one question and a quick comment ... first, where to you buy livestock grade/ people grade DE? 

Second, I know most vets and many horse owners, will tell you not to feed alfalfa hay. However, I've lived most of my "horse years" in Montana where nearly all of the available hay is alfalfa and most of the horse people I've known there have fed alfalfa. They do feed the first cutting, usually, by choice as it is more "stemmy" rather than 2nd and 3rd but most of the ones I've know do feed alfalfa or at least an alfalfa/grass mix. In most areas there you only get one cutting of grass hay compared to two or three cuttings of alfalfa, particularly if it is irrigated, so very few people raise grass hay.

I fed it ... alfalfa/grass when I could get it, straight alfalfa if I couldn't get the grass mix ... for all of the years I owned and raised horses there. Horses of all types including working Quarter Horses, Arabs, ponies and warmbloods and never had any problems with it.

I fed the usual, commonly available grass hay here in KY for years primarily because I could not find a good source of alfalfa. The stems are so much heavier that it is difficult to get alfalfa hay here cured properly. However, I've recently found a reliable source of alfalfa in the small square bales as well as some big rounds with an alfalfa/grass mix and I my horses actually do better with that.


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

I have lived and raised all ages of horses in Wisconsin, Illinois, Texas, Maryland, Delaware, and now Florida and Alfalfa hay is fed in whole or in part in all of those states with excellent results.

Of course, the total ration needs to be balanced and one needs to know the nutrient value in whatever hay they are feeding in order to calculated the best ration for each individual horse.

My parents have bred Warmblood foals every year for over 15 years. They feed their broodmares an Alfalfa mix hay (usually a 40/60 with Timothy or Orchardgrass) along with 1-3 lbs of a 14% protein broodmare/foal concentrate (grain ration). Foals sell for $8500.-$14000. each, and go on to excellent Dressage or Eventing homes, are trained up and very successful.

My breeding program was a bit different; I kept mostly Thoroughbred mares to cross with my parent's Warmblood stallion for a different style of foal. Those Thoroughbred mares were very hard keepers, and I would not have been able to keep them in condition while pregnant without the excellent nutrition that SOME Alfalfa provided. Again, depending on the INDIVIDUAL mare; some got more, some got less.

Alfalfa is not a monster; _improper feeding_ of Alfalfa IS a problem.

As with anything, one needs to apply common sense and research. Obviously, as Rogo describes, her area of Arizona is a very specific climate, with conditions that not many of us experience 365 days per year. And her years of observation and trial and error have provided her with an exact set of procedures to follow to ensure the health of her specific herd.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== where to you buy livestock grade/ people grade DE? ===


The industrial grade of DE is used in many ways, such as in swimming pool filters. It is treated and heated. When heated, DE becomes crystalline, up to 85% crystalline, and can cause lung problems, cancer, even death.

So it's imparative that food grade DE be used. The front of the bag says FOOD CHEMICAL CODEX GRADE. If it doesn't, don't purchase. Food grade DE is less than 1% crystalline.

World Minerals owns most of the DE deposits in the U.S. Perma-Guard is their largest supplier and Perma-Guard is the brand you'll see in the feed stores. Most feed stores carry DE here. On the east side of the U.S., there's not as many suppliers. Some feed stores will order for you even if they don't carry it.

You want to avoid buying online and having DE shipped if you can avoid it; the shipping costs are higher for the 50 pound bag than the cost of the product.

If you can't find DE in your area, contact Perma-Guard and ask them if they have a supplier in your local area. Not all suppliers are feed stores; some are independent sellers. Give them your city, state, zip code. Tell them you want the Fossil Shell Flour.

Perma-Guard

Phone: 505-243-1460

E-Mail: permaguardnm @ yahoo.com (remove spaces)


Anyone can become a dealer. If interested, let Perma-Guard know. Some who have become dealers and don't have room where they live to store the bags, have made arrangements with their feed stores to store the bags.

DE has no expiration date as long as it's stored out of the weather.

Prices differ around the country. I pay $24.50 for a 50 pound bag. Some pay more, some less.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

> I've stated before, but perhaps folks missed it. Of the 28 trace minerals in food grade 100% diatomaceous earth (DE), one of them is sodium. When I started feeding DE years ago, the stock quit using the trace mineral salt blocks on their own. Probably due to DE having more of the minerals they need. Sodium is salt, SO SALT *IS* FED. DE is fed daily to everything that breathes around here.
> 
> I have a chart with all the amounts of the trace minerals in the DE I use. If you want, I'll post it.


I understand it has some sodium, but I don't think it has a whole lot. Please don't take this as an attack, it's coming from pure curiosity, not hostility. But my horses eat a lot of salt, I don't see how they could get enough sodium out of DE to do the trick unless they ate several pounds a day. I have had my horses eat 2 cups of almost pure salt in one day easy. 

I would love for you to get a bag of redmon salt and put it out there and see if they eat it. I will be amazed if they don't. It's only about 10 bucks a bag if you can find a dealer near you. It's just pure salt mined out of the earth, nothing taken out, nothing added. It's pink. 

My critters get DE too, mixed in their mineral that is based in the redmond salt.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== I understand it has some sodium, but I don't think it has a whole lot. ===


What you "THINK" is not a very good argument! )

Don't know what type of DE you're feeding, and perhaps you're not feeding the right amount.

I would be quite concerned if any of my critters were over-eating salt.

Do you know what minerals are in food grade 100% DE? You're also feeding added minerals. Do you know what minerals it has? You could be putting your critters in a toxic situation.

I have 30+ years of feeding DE. If the critters weren't healthy, they couldn't do what they do.


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

Rogo said:


> === I understand it has some sodium, but I don't think it has a whole lot. ===
> 
> 
> *What you "THINK" is not a very good argument! )*
> ...



Well Rogo, you know what I THINK? And I have 36+ years of THINKING to back me up.

I THINK you need to adjust the way you respond to people, as though the ONLY way to take care of horses is the way YOU do it on YOUR farm in YOUR area.

I THINK you need to put a caveat at the beginning and end of every sentence you type, because the "30+ years worth" of information you are putting out there is *AREA SPECIFIC*. _TO YOUR AREA_.

Maybe you'd stop rubbing so many the wrong way if you would be just a bit more humble and understanding that you are interacting with people from ALL OVER THE USA & the world.

But, that's just what I THINK.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Jill, I keep saying 'what works for me.' 

And I've said that no 2 tend/feed alike.

When it comes to DE, folks all across our country and even across the pond, have the same results as I do. It works when the right amount is used.

I've thought others were 'rubbing the wrong way.'

And I've been thinking twice as long as you! -LOL-


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

Rogo, I don't understand why people are getting irritated by what you're saying. You're telling us what works for you. You're not telling anybody that they need to do what you're doing.

We feed only grass hay here. Boys do have a salt/mineral block. We have stalls but they've never been in them. They're still eating grass right now. We'll continue to feed grass as long as possible and add hay as needed. Our boys got a little fat last winter on their hay only diet.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Thank you, Joshie.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

I keep checking back to see if you have results yet. Is this those folks idea of rush shipping? lol

Joshie, 
My irritation results from reading the same thing on multiple posts that happen to discuss, well, anything regarding horse care or feeding. It comes across (and apparently rightly so, considering her post to southerngurl) as Rogo downing anyone who doesn't think, or feed, or take care of their horses, as she does. Her response to southerngurl was pretty rude.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

I'm not a horse expert by any means. I'm not a sheep expert either, but I have been raising Icelandic sheep for a few years, and am on the email list for our breed organization, and sheep feeding and supplementation is a well-known topic.

Most of you probably know, though maybe some don't, that there are vast differences in the mineral content of soils and water across the US and indeed there can be big differences even between farms in close proximity. Much of the US is Se poor, for example. But Se isn't the only mineral to be concerned with. At least in Icelandic sheep (and some other primitive breeds) Cu often needs to be supplemented (yes, despite the fact that sheep are susceptible to Cu toxicity, they still need some and Icelandics appear to need more).

But it's often not as easy as just supplementing one thing or another. Certain minerals/trace elements will bind others and make them unavailable. You can add a necessary mineral into your feed or mineral supplement, only to have it bound up and made useless by an excess of some other mineral that is in your water or forage/hay. 

I guess what I'm saying is that some of what people are seeing in terms of the necessary differences in feeding programs is probably due to the differences in soil/water mineral content in different areas of the country that affects the nutritional quality of the feed. Horses that did fine in MT with grass/hay and water and then moved east and couldn't survive on grass/hay and water there were probably suffering the effects of the different soil composition on which their feed was grown.

DE I imagine has quite a good range of minerals in it, and where Rogo lives it probably meshes quite well with the natural balance of nutrients in the soil.

I feed kelp here as a supplement (along with mineral mixture that I create using sheep minerals and cattle minerals) and that seems to work for me, but in Iceland, when certain farmers near the ocean were letting their sheep graze seaweed during the winter, the sheep ended up with Cu deficiency. Something in all that seaweed they were eating was binding up Cu in their systems and creating a problem. It was too much of a good thing.

So, I'm probably not telling anyone anything they didn't know, but I hadn't seen it stated in so many words yet, so decided to jump in. 

Hope it helps.


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## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

The neighbor down the road that came over to look at Shell she looked at her teeth and based Shell's age on that. Sorry been busy redoing my fencing again...Honeybear decided she can push the back fence down and climb over all the while the hot wire was laying on her back! I swear if it isn't the goats getting out its the dog, the only ones that don't try are the horses  Got some Vetericyn recommended by the vet it isn't cheap($30 for 16oz) it is a spray on good for antibiotic resistant infections and her jaw is already starting to look and smell better! The vet was unable to come out on friday but we have him scheduled for thursday (payday) meanwhile will do a pregnancy test on Shell. I emailed the lady I got both from and she can't remember when the attack actually happened so by my calculations, how long they have been here and by the healing marks on her back I would say 4 to 5 months ago, also she did say that she gave Sulfa to shell for 10 days....


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

> === I understand it has some sodium, but I don't think it has a whole lot. ===
> 
> 
> What you "THINK" is not a very good argument! )


Then show me it's wrong. How much sodium is there. My understanding is it's a trace amount.


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## ShyAnne (Jun 18, 2008)

wintrrwolf said:


> The neighbor down the road that came over to look at Shell she looked at her teeth and based Shell's age on that. Sorry been busy redoing my fencing again...Honeybear decided she can push the back fence down and climb over all the while the hot wire was laying on her back! I swear if it isn't the goats getting out its the dog, the only ones that don't try are the horses  Got some Vetericyn recommended by the vet it isn't cheap($30 for 16oz) it is a spray on good for antibiotic resistant infections and her jaw is already starting to look and smell better! The vet was unable to come out on friday but we have him scheduled for thursday (payday) meanwhile will do a pregnancy test on Shell. I emailed the lady I got both from and she can't remember when the attack actually happened so by my calculations, how long they have been here and by the healing marks on her back I would say 4 to 5 months ago, also she did say that she gave Sulfa to shell for 10 days....




Keep us posted! Glad her jaw is starting to get better.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Poor baby, she's been through a lot. Good to hear she's started healing.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== Then show me it's wrong. How much sodium is there. My understanding is it's a trace amount. ===


Contents of the DE I use. What's in it and what's not in it:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/deserthills123/15304b56.jpg


What it looks like under the microscope:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/deserthills123/c9277e28.jpg


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

So your own information confirmed my "thinking"- 0.0680% sodium. 

Works for you, that's fine. But I bet your horses have some salty ground out on the range somewhere. My horses would be salt starved here.

Thanks for the info.


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