# Eat Food or Die: Providing Under Marginal Conditions



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Y'all might not be interested, but I thought I'd share part of my current writing project. 

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For the family on a budget, meat may be priced out of reach. Even if you arenât under tight rationing conditions then the cost of meat may comprise as much as half of your grocery bill. It is a pervasive part of the American diet and most of us just wonât feel full unless meat has made a significant appearance on our plates at mealtimes. However we should be aware of the cost of meat.

In terms of meat production it takes approximately 20,000 plant calories to produce one pound of meat. That one pound of meat will yield roughly 1,200 calories to a human. This is all well and good if those 20,000 plant calories came from pasture and are comprised principally of things humans cannot eat. Yet if those plant calories were derived from cereals (typically corn in modern agriculture) then we are faced with a significant dilemma. In the latter case, for the grains that went into producing that pound of meat, an adult male could have sustained his life for roughly ten days. He traded ten days of life for half a dayâs food intake. If he is a parent of an average family of four then he traded half a dayâs caloric intake for approximately five days of life for his wife and children.

This equation only makes sense when there is a surplus of cheap cereals to feed our stock. When the tables turn and those cereals are needed to stretch a diminished and weakened food supply across a population, or to support a war effort, or to keep a family alive in a state of extreme poverty, then industrial meat no longer makes sense.

Yet nothing else tastes like meat. Its texture is appealing to humans, as is its flavor. We crave it. We need the protein. There are protein substitutes (such as peanut butter or beans), but they lack the bite that a healthy serving of meat provides. Because meat is digested more slowly than many other foods, it also helps us to feel full for longer. The fat that often accompanies meat, despite what doctors tell us, is very healthy for an adult who is burning a tremendous amount of calories in combat, manual labor, or a struggle for survival. When properly cured this meat can store longer than many other foods and is more palatable after storage than canned or frozen vegetables.

So what is a man to do when it comes to feeding his family under hardship conditions? Unless you are very lucky, that industrial meat produced in feedlots on large amounts of cheap, surplus cereals is going to be unavailable to you. If you have even a little bit of land you are in luck. Producing your own meat is not a difficult matter and even an inexpert and novice hand can learn to butcher effectively, if not prettily.

Rabbits reproduce at a frightening rate. In the space most people consider adequate for their master bathroom you can provide roughly five pounds of rabbit meat per week for your family, which would supplement other foods nicely. Those lusty rabbits will also consume weeds from your garden, grass from fields, or edible greens (should your family have any waste) from your table. With practice, and youâll get the practice with the way rabbits breed, youâll be able to go from a live rabbit to a dressed rabbit simmering in a stewpot in under a half hour. It tastes very similar to chicken and youâll have the added benefit of feeding your family something that normally comes at a very high premium.

Chicken is the most common of poultry and provide both meat and eggs. I believe the eggs are vastly more valuable than the chicken meat, providing almost as much protein as a small portion of meat and a surplus of vitamins as well. However raising chickens invariably means that some older hens may be culled when they stop producing eggs, as well as the fact that approximately half of all chickens hatched will be roosters which provide no eggs! Even if youâre only raising chickens for eggs, youâll still end up with the occasional meat meal which can be stretched out to feed a family well. 

Ducks, geese, and turkeys can also be raised but those are primarily meat sources. If they are confined they will have to be fed and are not as efficient as chickens when it comes to converting grain to meat. Chickens will clean up a dinner plate filled with scraps (if you have picky children) faster than any animal short of a hog. All poultry has the advantage of being able to free range, or provide their own food from the land, thus converting food sources (like bugs and weed seeds) that are undesirable to humans into food that is much more palatable. They can also be raised on a surprisingly small amount of land.

Sheep have been used to provide meat and fiber for clothing since earliest recorded history. In biblical times, sheep were so common that the relationship between sheep and the shepherd was used by Christ as a metaphor to instruct and guide. I can think of no other animal that man is so dependent upon, or that is more dependent upon humans. Sheep simply cannot get along without a shepherd. 

They do require higher than normal labor output in order to keep them healthy and preserved, but there is a great payoff at the end. Lamb meat is very healthy and many sheep breeds are exceptionally prolific. They are experts at turning marginal land into good meat and wool production. They are also easy to handle and protect, as evidenced by so many young shepherds out tending the flocks. Their temperament is usually quite good and they can breed and birth their own young with minimal (if any) assistance from man. 

In addition, the meat is easy to eat, easy to digest, and high in nutrition. An average sized family can consume an entire sheep over the course of a few days, eliminating the need for refrigeration. A healthy adult can kill, hang, and butcher out even an adult sheep without assistance . The hides can be tanned and used for extra winter comfort and the wool used by spinners, weavers, and knitters for clothing and decorative projects. Some breeds of sheep even provide a small amount of milk and sheep cheeses are prized throughout the world. All of these qualities show why the sheep is the premier survival animal for all of recorded history. 

Goats can make even more use of marginal land and survive in dry, harsh conditions even better than sheep do. In many cases they are just as prolific and most of them can birth without assistance. The meat is very good and you can even get nutritious and flavorful milk from many breeds. Milking a goat is also easier for the elderly or someone with health problems than a cow would be. 

The biggest challenge with goats is that, unlike sheep, they are very independent-minded. My wife always said that goats have âno fear of God and no regard for man.â A herd of goats released into a lush ten acre pasture will immediately rush to the nearest fence and try to find a way through. Theyâll kill your trees, demolish your arbors, and nibble the sides of your house before they ever deign to eat the knee-high grass in your yard. Africans call them âthe desert makersâ and if you watch them any length of time in a confined area youâll understand why. Their ability to provide a homesteader with milk, meat, and hides under almost any conditions is more than enough reason to put up with them.


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## Kmac15 (May 19, 2007)

Great job. I would have liked to have seen a bit on pigs, maybe even PBP as a small farm animal.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

Nice! You don't like goats much, though, do you? :run: :gaptooth:To me, the only advantage a sheep has over a goat, is the wool/fleece/skin.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Kmac15 said:


> Great job. I would have liked to have seen a bit on pigs, maybe even PBP as a small farm animal.


Thanks. I'm having trouble with the pig portion. I have never raised them and don't like them much, though I do appreciate their potential value on a homestead. 

The biggest problem with pigs I see is that they have roughly the same digestive system I do. Anything a pig could eat, I could eat as well. They don't seem to be so much of an asset under marginal food conditions as a _competitor._


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

thermopkt said:


> Nice! You don't like goats much, though, do you? :run: :gaptooth:To me, the only advantage a sheep has over a goat, is the wool/fleece/skin.


Not a huge fan of goats anymore, no. Seems to me that the best way is to suit your livestock to the land you're farming. Cattle if possible, then sheep if possible, then finally goats if you can't sustain anything else on the property.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Not a huge fan of goats anymore, no. Seems to me that the best way is to suit your livestock to the land you're farming. Cattle if possible, then sheep if possible, then finally goats if you can't sustain anything else on the property.


I agree about the fitting the animal to the land. But also to what you can handle. Goats and sheep are about the same, there. Cattle, though, I don't think I could do by myself. I haven't had much experience there, however. 

Good fencing makes for good goats. I have only had VERY limited experience with sheep, so my opinion/experience isn't worth much, but I noticed the sheep were intent on suicide and they seemed to die easier. This was on grass/weed pasture that the sheep should have done better on than the goats, as grass isn't really their thing. Goats I can do, they are able to survive in spite of me. Maybe I just don't have the 'sheep touch'.

There's got to be a better way to phrase that. 

Rabbits are similar for me. My rabbits don't 'breed like rabbits'. So annoying.

Very informative article, though. Thanks!


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

Ernie said:


> Anything a pig could eat, I could eat as well.


Maggots appear to like hog manure while hogs appear to thrive on maggots.

Bon appetite.

To be thorough here is how farming in the first part of the last century was accomplished:

1) Feed the dairy cows good quality corn and protein.
2) Feed sows nothing much but let them clean up when a cow takes a dump.
3) Those good tasting farm eggs are produced by letting the hens clean up behind the sows.
4) All manure goes back on the fields and you do not purchase any fertilizer except for starter on the corn
5) Keep the pH balanced by 3 T of lime per acre every three years.
6) Always let the horses blow for a few minutes at the end of every cultivation pass.
7) Corn picking starts at 6 AM and ends at 6 PM. A good hand could pick 80 bushels a day at a wage of a penny a bushel.


If you can find a more efficient system I would be surprised.


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## D Lynn (May 26, 2008)

Very good reading Ernie and I agree, sheep (lamb) is the perfect food - - - if only I could stomache the smell of the stuff cooking - then actually eating it...[she gags] I've tried - honestly I have - on several occasions :awh:!!!!! ... But I guess if I were starved - different scenereo, right?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Check out the coturnix quail. Easier to keep than chickens and will produce more eggs and meat per pound of feed than just about any bird.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

You're a talented writer, Ernie. Your work is concise and easy to read. Good job.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Txsteader said:


> You're a talented writer, Ernie. Your work is concise and easy to read. Good job.


Thanks. Wish more publishers told me that. 

Forerunner and I have decided to start a publishing company. Or rather I prodded him into it and he made the mistake of nodding his head in sympathetic agreement.

There's a lot of topics that ought to be covered now, in the times we still have the internet. From composting to firearms management to setting up a roadside ambush of bandits, there's a bajillion things that I want to see covered but that the more traditional publishing houses won't touch. Self publishing is not particularly difficult to do (especially with print-on-demand places like Lulu.com out there) and the rise of ebooks is making life even easier. As for the publishing house front, there's not much more to it these days than a good website.


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## organicfarmer (May 11, 2002)

With respect to pigs, they are terrific on the homestead. Advantages are:

- will clean up any compost material from the kitchen, excess milk, hay, etc.- sort of "garbage" cans if you will 
- can till up new garden space without the use of pesticides or fuel
- provide much needed fat for soapmaking, breadmaking and general fat needed in the kitchen, especially in hard times to come
- hide can be tanned for leather
- easy to breed and sows can raise piglets on pasture with minimal shelter
- pure entertainment value


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Pigs can and will eat a lot of stuff I won't, like old eggs, overgrown zukes, that chicken I picked up dead......... they'll also eat a lot of grass and weeds.

I fence goats out of where ever I don't want them. I get lots of nearly free milk. When we have lots of milk, daughter and I get more than half our daily calorie intake from the milk. Whey goes to the dogs or chickens or you can feed it to a pig.

Rabbits do not breed well in south Texas heat unless you have underground bunkers.

Geese grow amazingly fast if put on grass early and provided with some quality feed. They don't eat a lot of the feed, but should have some.

Turkeys turn feed into meat faster and at a better ratio than chickens unless you are looking at broiler crosses.

Wild pig is good food. Boars make good dog food.

Grow as much meat as you can while grains are available cheaply and can as many jars as possible.


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

Cyngbaeld said:


> Pigs can and will eat a lot of stuff I won't, like old eggs, overgrown zukes, that chicken I picked up dead......... they'll also eat a lot of grass and weeds.


Until farmers learned to feed them protein in the form of tankage they used to chow down on farmers to fulfill a nutritional deficiency.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

palani said:


> Until farmers learned to feed them protein in the form of tankage they used to chow down on farmers to fulfill a nutritional deficiency.


Yeah. Early life experiences with pigs trying to do that is what taught me that I don't like to raise them myself.

Some good points on pigs though that I'm going to incorporate into the text. The theory is mostly living on marginal means and I've never thought pigs were really good at that. There's a reason why the fertile lands of Iowa and Ohio are considered great pig country and Arizona and Wyoming aren't.

The book is going to cover the following topics: meat, potatoes, dairy, fruits, vegetables, and grains. It's not primarily a homesteading guide (though that creeps in heavily) but geared towards helping people understand where the bulk of their nutrition can come from on a limited diet. Think food rationing, famine, or war and how families might not be able to purchase all of the food they normally would. In those conditions, working with limited resources, what would you focus on in order to maintain maximum health for your family?


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## palani (Jun 12, 2005)

Ernie said:


> ...working with limited resources, what would you focus on in order to maintain maximum health for your family?


 Friendly relations with neighbors and township officials. Volunteering for community projects.

Chances are lead poisoning might be the epidemic of the future. A Dale Carnegie course in winning friends should be a good investment.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Earnie, I would have to cut back on all the chickens except the mixed games that can scrounge really well. I wouldn't do rabbits because of the amount of work involved and the very short breeding season here. I would maximize my goats and use more milk to feed the chickens and the laying ducks. I would probably cull all the Embdens and concentrate on the American Buffs and Blues and Cotton Patch geese. Goose and duck have real good meat and you do have to cull excess males. I would grow more sweet potatoes (they are a perennial here). I hope to get my sub-tropical orchard/vineyard going soon too. I would try to trap some wild hogs. They fatten up on acorns, grass, grubs, wild pecans and whatever they can find. Trying to get my chewing cane going too. Also working on growing duck weed, but I need a fenced pond that the ducks and geese can't reach before I can grow enough to do some good.

On orchards and goats. You need to double fence the orchard. Make a "moat" and plant something usable that can stand some heavy nibbling and is attractive to goats, like dog roses, in the moat. The roses produce high vit c in the hips. I've learned to double fence the garden too and not grow anything close to a fence that is attractive to goats.

Now if I could persuade fence hopping hens NOT to lay in my melons, I'd be real happy.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Cyngbaeld said:


> Now if I could persuade fence hopping hens NOT to lay in my melons, I'd be real happy.


I found an egg in my boot this morning. I couldn't figure out if a hen did it or one of the kids was playing a prank.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Hogs will eat anything... a lot of things I won't.

They can be fattened on mast crops in the fall, and can graze/root anywhere.

Of course, I 'could' eat acorns, but hogs can process them a lot easier than I can.

I tried raising rabbits on 'whatever'... they took forever to grow out.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

texican said:


> Hogs will eat anything... a lot of things I won't.
> 
> They can be fattened on mast crops in the fall, and can graze/root anywhere.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of this. Hogs eat a great many things I wouldn't ever put in my mouth, and they thrive on it! Yes, they'll compete with you for your food too, if you let them, but they'll just as readily eat acorns, weeds and grasses, frogs, mice, insects, old eggs, old milk, chicken crops, etc.

We raise our dog-rabbits on "whatever", but our rabbits are fed on pellets or high quality legume/grass pasture/hay. They fill out faster and are tender, less sinewy than those raised on "whatever". Now, we do offer garden weeds and salt, free choice to all of our rabbits, so they do eat the "whatever" too, just not solely, unless they are intended for dog food.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

It's amazing how animals will live together and benefit each other when given the opportunity to do so. I mixed goats, donkeys, a calf, pigs, ducks, and chickens together in a single pasture. They all thrived. The pasture was never over grazed as each eats something the others turn their noses up at. During the winter I had to give them hay, but my winters are short so it's still much less than it would be to buy grain for them. Pigs can be pasture raised the same as calves.

Ducks keep a pond cleaned by eating the algae that forms. My pond used to get a thick coating of green slime until I got the ducks. Now the pond is nice and clean looking year round. 

Donkeys are valuable. They eat very little, require little water, and are very willing workers when it comes to plowing a garden, pulling a cart, or back packing. 

A good fence will make a goat love staying home. Well, maybe not love it, but it will keep them confined.  They are good producers of milk with the added benefit of cheese and butter. If handled and used to humans, they will come when called and once they learn the milking lineup, they'll stand patiently waiting their turn to get on the stanchion. 

Chickens can support themselves. They will free range not competing for human food. If you want to keep them confined, they can be kept under the rabbit cages to clean up what feed the rabbits spill (eliminating leftovers that attract mice), plus they will scratch up the poo making excellent compost for the garden. 

The hardest part about raising animals for meat during hard times is protecting them from the 2 legged predators that will be out in force. At that time, I plan to keep a breeding pair of everything but the donkeys down in the basement. At that time, feed & bedding will become necessary for the breeders. The "compost" will be used in pots to grow "window salads".


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

The advantage to pigs if you pick the right breeds is that they forage very well with minimum oversight by humans. The pioneers would mark them and turn them loose. In the fall they would drive them in and slaughter all but the ones they were keeping for breeding. In a SHTF situation you could turn them loose with a swineherd like they used to do in Europe and and drive them in each night for protection. Keeps a teen busy with productive work and you can get a lot of return for the labor. 
I don't understand the homesteading obsession with goats. For cattle you have to have a strong fence but it doesn't have to be near as tight to keep the cattle in. In my experience building a cow proof fence is much cheaper and easier. Cattle aren't that much work except for a milk cow and frankly I'd rather milk one cow than several goats. I also think in a SHTF situation that it would be easier to get a small group of cattle under cover than a larger group of goats. I've never had as easy a time herding goats as I've had herding cows.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

willbuck1 said:


> The advantage to pigs if you pick the right breeds is that they forage very well with minimum oversight by humans. The pioneers would mark them and turn them loose. In the fall they would drive them in and slaughter all but the ones they were keeping for breeding. In a SHTF situation you could turn them loose with a swineherd like they used to do in Europe and and drive them in each night for protection. Keeps a teen busy with productive work and you can get a lot of return for the labor.
> I don't understand the homesteading obsession with goats. For cattle you have to have a strong fence but it doesn't have to be near as tight to keep the cattle in. In my experience building a cow proof fence is much cheaper and easier. Cattle aren't that much work except for a milk cow and frankly I'd rather milk one cow than several goats. I also think in a SHTF situation that it would be easier to get a small group of cattle under cover than a larger group of goats. I've never had as easy a time herding goats as I've had herding cows.


Yeah, you can't even use dogs to bring in goats. My dog is trained to bring my sheep in from the hill. I can just about tell him from the back porch to go get them and if he could shut the gate I'd never have to even put my boots on.


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## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

willbuck1 said:


> I don't understand the homesteading obsession with goats. For cattle you have to have a strong fence but it doesn't have to be near as tight to keep the cattle in. In my experience building a cow proof fence is much cheaper and easier. Cattle aren't that much work except for a milk cow and frankly I'd rather milk one cow than several goats. I also think in a SHTF situation that it would be easier to get a small group of cattle under cover than a larger group of goats. I've never had as easy a time herding goats as I've had herding cows.


I totally agree! I have milked both cows and goats, and I prefer to milk a single cow for her 4-6 gallons a day, thank you.
I do however think goats are often preferred because they are less expensive to buy and lots of people don't know what to do with the extra milk (I don't have that issue here for sure!). Also, lots of people are intimidated by the size of a cow vs a goat.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

My goats can disappear into the underbrush and have a tendency to do so when strangers are about. 

If all my funds and efforts are tied up in one cow and she dies, I have nothing. Right now I have 5 does and 4 doelings. If I lose one, I have others. Next year I'll have more.

Goats thrive where cows would need supplements.

My goats are trained. They come to the milkstand morning and evening, and each takes her turn, hopping up, sticking her head in the stanchion and calmly allowing herself to be milked. At night they go right to their shed and stay there all night. 

My goats free range and don't wander off. If my neighbor's cows get out of their pasture he has to hunt all over the country for them.

If I want the goats to go somewhere, I take hold of the herd queen's collar and lead her there. Everybody else falls in behind.

If a goat steps on my foot, I yell and push her off. If a cow steps on my foot I may need to go to the ER.


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## airmont (Feb 12, 2009)

"Ducks, geese, and turkeys can also be raised but those are primarily meat sources."

My ducks (khaki campbell) lay eggs nearly year-round without any extra lighting. Confined in a pen with a compost pile where our kitchen scraps are thrown, they feast on flies and maggots for over 6 months. If a light is low-hung nearby, they feast all night on insects. They eat fresh grass and slugs if allowed access, and contrary to popular view, mine hatch out their own eggs. Their overuse/dirtying of fresh water is their biggest disadvantage IMO. If I were to change anything, I would have a few muscovy hens and one drake in a separate pen, because they are so prolific and much quieter.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Ernie said:


> The book is going to cover the following topics: meat, potatoes, dairy, fruits, vegetables, and grains. It's not primarily a homesteading guide (though that creeps in heavily) but geared towards helping people understand where the bulk of their nutrition can come from on a limited diet. Think food rationing, famine, or war and how families might not be able to purchase all of the food they normally would. In those conditions, working with limited resources, what would you focus on in order to maintain maximum health for your family?


I look forward to your book! I am confident it will be a bestseller here on HT! :goodjob:


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

Good article, Ernie, and for me, on the verge of a major life change, very timely.

Good luck with your publishing venture, I've been contemplating a similar venture myself.


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

I've raised none of the above, but have read a lot about doing such and it seems that some other advantages of rabbits over larger animals is the elimination of the need to preserve the meat. Just dispatch and butcher as needed, unlike a pig where one might typically butcher in the Fall or early Winter and rely on cold weather for preservation, or engage in lots of canning and use sacks of salt.


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## jlrbhjmnc (May 2, 2010)

The information on how we get our meat and the cost in calories and grains was very helpful. We're learning more and more. 

Good luck with the publishing. We're looking forward to reading more.


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## bluefish (Jan 27, 2006)

willbuck1 said:


> The advantage to pigs if you pick the right breeds is that they forage very well with minimum oversight by humans. The pioneers would mark them and turn them loose. In the fall they would drive them in and slaughter all but the ones they were keeping for breeding. In a SHTF situation you could turn them loose with a swineherd like they used to do in Europe and and drive them in each night for protection. Keeps a teen busy with productive work and you can get a lot of return for the labor.
> I don't understand the homesteading obsession with goats. For cattle you have to have a strong fence but it doesn't have to be near as tight to keep the cattle in. In my experience building a cow proof fence is much cheaper and easier. Cattle aren't that much work except for a milk cow and frankly I'd rather milk one cow than several goats. I also think in a SHTF situation that it would be easier to get a small group of cattle under cover than a larger group of goats. I've never had as easy a time herding goats as I've had herding cows.


I think the thing with goats vs cows in homesteading, is that a lot of people don't have much acreage. Where you are, it may very well be possible to have a cow or two on 10 acres. I have 80 and out here, I can support 2 animal units, maybe, 1 is more likely. With hay in the winter. And that will stretch the land to the limit. What happens then in a dry year? I would prefer beef for meat. I really, really don't like lamb or goat. I don't eat it, although in a situation such as Ernie is talking about I most certainly _would_.
I prefer goat milk to cow milk, but one cow would supply us better. The reason I went with goats is because I can make it here with no supplements for the goats if need be. Right now they get supplemental hay and grain, it makes for better milk production, but they can survive and give me milk on just what grows around here. Not as much milk, but enough to get us by. I like my goats, but I must say, if I lived somewhere with lots of rain and vegetation, I'd probably go with a cow. Here, though, I just don't think I could keep one going on what I've got in a survival situation. 

The animals one grows on a homestead is often decided by preference. But it's often dictated, in the end, by what will actually make it in your given situation/resources.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

thermopkt said:


> I think the thing with goats vs cows in homesteading, is that a lot of people don't have much acreage. Where you are, it may very well be possible to have a cow or two on 10 acres. I have 80 and out here, I can support 2 animal units, maybe, 1 is more likely. With hay in the winter. And that will stretch the land to the limit. What happens then in a dry year? I would prefer beef for meat. I really, really don't like lamb or goat. I don't eat it, although in a situation such as Ernie is talking about I most certainly _would_.
> I prefer goat milk to cow milk, but one cow would supply us better. The reason I went with goats is because I can make it here with no supplements for the goats if need be. Right now they get supplemental hay and grain, it makes for better milk production, but they can survive and give me milk on just what grows around here. Not as much milk, but enough to get us by. I like my goats, but I must say, if I lived somewhere with lots of rain and vegetation, I'd probably go with a cow. Here, though, I just don't think I could keep one going on what I've got in a survival situation.
> 
> The animals one grows on a homestead is often decided by preference. But it's often dictated, in the end, by what will actually make it in your given situation/resources.


An outstanding assessment. 

Goats are very hardy and can make a meal out of stuff that would kill or starve a cow. But the cow provides more of everything that it provides.

Yet there's a reason goats are prolific in Third-World desert countries, sheep are prolific in highland cold countries, and cattle are prolific in relatively flat range countries.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

it should also be added that , and i would have never thought i would say this as i like my meat but most could get by on less meat boiled potatoes are the most filling item around per pound and a hand full of dry beans rounds out your protien for the day 

don't get me wrong i like meat i advocate raising your own we raise chickens 
just saing the bean should not be over looked as is reduced meat intake 3 oz is a serving 

i noticed stew pot was refrenced and most know but some may need reminding that boiling or stewing is important in capturing all the callories , use that broth , by the way save those chicken feet blanch and peel and then boil for a stock - waste not want not


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## damoc (Jul 14, 2007)

Ernie you may add something in about the ability of animals to act as recyclers and harvesters they 
can also produce meat from plant material that we could never consume.

so even though there is a high waste of calories in the conversion to meat.
If raised correctly(not feedlots) the production of meat is a very good
method of food production.

also the best preservation of meat untill its ready to be eaten is simply to keep it alive.

also consider the ability of meat to transport itself for emample old time
cattle drives,goat and sheep herding.

this gives meat products the ability to literally move to greener pastures 
instead of just withering and dying as many plant crops may when rain fails

just some ideas


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

Cyngbaeld said:


> Pigs can and will eat a lot of stuff I won't, like old eggs, overgrown zukes, that chicken I picked up dead......... they'll also eat a lot of grass and weeds.
> 
> I fence goats out of where ever I don't want them. I get lots of nearly free milk. When we have lots of milk, daughter and I get more than half our daily calorie intake from the milk. Whey goes to the dogs or chickens or you can feed it to a pig.
> 
> ...




Excellent advice... that is what I have been doing.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

For rabbits, if you have the room you could have a patch of legumes and they would do better. Peas, Clover or alfalfa.
Also carbohydrates such as peices of cooked potatoes, feed beets, carrots, pumpkin, squash and turnips, will add weight. As well as increasing mothers milk. All of this can be clean scraps from human meals.
And feed till they look like they will burst. Being careful to add small amounts of new feeds so they can get used to them.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Cyngbaeld said:


> My goats can disappear into the underbrush and have a tendency to do so when strangers are about.
> 
> If all my funds and efforts are tied up in one cow and she dies, I have nothing. Right now I have 5 does and 4 doelings. If I lose one, I have others. Next year I'll have more.
> 
> ...


This is my situation too. My gals are trained and even our bull calves, are very well behaved for the most part...trained to ride for fun by my oldest daughter I don't STEER them because I think they grow better intact. It takes a minimum of 50 gallons of my goat milk to raise the bull calves I get for less then $25 at a couple days old....If I had to choose between feeding extra milk to a male kid or a bull calf...the calf wins hands down. At 3 months old the buckling yields maybe 20# of meat and the 3 month old calf will give 75-100# depending on breed and amount of milk fed. I feed about a gallon a day to a calf on avg. before its ready for grass.

I also tether my goats and the smaller calves...they are very quick to learn this. My daughters actually do most of the work with the exception of milking and "resource management". My 9yo morning and night...feeds the chickens, feeds the 2 bottle calves, helps keep goats occupied while I milk (feeding them hay one stalk at a time until I'm done milking) collects bunny treats and occasionally feeds the rabbits for older sister.

But milk is the perfect food...a gallon of milk is about 2400 calories...plenty for one person...add an egg or potato or foraged feed stuffs and you are doing real well.
We've done a few pigs, love doing bottle piglets and actually have wintered pigs with pumpkins and the waste from rabbits (yes poo and grain waste). I've fed them squirrels, acorns and "wild" apples. The fat from a pig is highly prized in lean times!
Heck my neighbor waits to mow so I have plenty to rake up for my animals...and I do the same here at home. "Resource management"

My survival chickens have made an amazing leap this year, too...normally I get just more bantams out of them but the one that hatched 13 has produced 2 hens that are growing like broilers! They are 4 days older than my hatchery purchased barred rocks and RIR and those two "special" hens are 3 times as large...:goodjob: Will I get broody big egg laying hens? or maybe precocious egg layers? They are only 5 weeks old so it'll be awhile before I have any answers.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Another thing for the rabbits, is to keep 2 breeds for genectic dyversity and vigor when they are crossed.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

I'd rather raise a calf for meat than a kid too. I'm hoping this spring to pick up a couple of Holstein bull calves. I expect to have 9 does freshen. I only keep doelings and give the bucklings away. I'd like to butcher one calf next fall and let the other grow for another yr on all this grass. I'm expecting to have at least 8-9 gallons of goat milk a day if I milk all the does.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

A veal calf costs next to nothing....butchered at 3m you can get them up to 2 gallon of milk a day if you have extra.

Baby beef makes good ground meat...reminds me of moose meat any other way...

18-24m good lean beef w/o grain feeding (I don't feed unless its super cold winter) We get roasts, shaved steak, cube steak, stew beef and tenderloin as roasts. Due to the leanness the steaks are better cubed.

I'm on very limited acreage(6.8) and buy hay to feed year round BUT my son works for the hay guy and my children are better off physically and mentally for having to be productive citizens and family members. Some lessons are priceless...and a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush...


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

I don't feed hay at all. I have 8 acres of good bottom land and way more grass than my present stock can eat. I may try to hay some of it next yr to feed the steer thru the winter. The goats can find plenty yr round.


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## Sunbee (Sep 30, 2008)

Ernie, have you read Recipes for a Small Planet? Lots of no-meat high protein ideas, which is what those of us who are poor and don't have land access need. Some my family won't eat (and things my husband won't eat are few and far between), but most are between okay and good.
Some folks might be able to risk keeping rabbits or small birds indoors, but some aren't going to be ready to risk loosing the roof over their heads.
Don't know if that's something you'd want to include, but it might be something to think about.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

So in trying to calculate what a 2 month veal calf cost me..in calories
At 2 days old and 75# live wt I feed 60 gallons of milk and he gains to 175# at 2months old...yields 75# of meat 

60gallons x 2400 cal per gallon=144000calories (divided by)75#of meat=1920calories per pound of meat (this seems extremely efficient) as opposed to 20,000 (plant)calories per pound

Did I mess up?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Sunbee said:


> Ernie, have you read Recipes for a Small Planet? Lots of no-meat high protein ideas, which is what those of us who are poor and don't have land access need. Some my family won't eat (and things my husband won't eat are few and far between), but most are between okay and good.
> Some folks might be able to risk keeping rabbits or small birds indoors, but some aren't going to be ready to risk loosing the roof over their heads.
> Don't know if that's something you'd want to include, but it might be something to think about.


Hey, I haven't read that book. I'll go see if I can find a copy. 

I have a section under meat entitled "doing without" where I discuss alternatives to meat. It's not geared towards going completely without meat forever, or out of any ideological concept, but simply the acknowledgement that meat is scarce and without refrigeration or the ability to smoke it then it won't make it to your plate that often. How do you keep a family's protein requirements up when meat is scarce?

For that I've turned to a couple of wartime books (from WW1-2 and the Civil War) for inspiration, looking at what they ate in order to preserve health while most the meat was unavailable or being sent overseas. More book sources are always good. Thanks!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

mpillow said:


> So in trying to calculate what a 2 month veal calf cost me..in calories
> At 2 days old and 75# live wt I feed 60 gallons of milk and he gains to 175# at 2months old...yields 75# of meat
> 
> 60gallons x 2400 cal per gallon=144000calories (divided by)75#of meat=1920calories per pound of meat (this seems extremely efficient) as opposed to 20,000 (plant)calories per pound
> ...


All livestock calories start with plant calories.

So it would be the number of plant calories required to make a gallon of milk, times the number of gallons, plus the number of calories in that gallon of milk divided by the 75 pounds of meat.

Converting milk to meat is EXTREMELY inefficient and not something you would likely do under hardship conditions.

Milk is an incredible meat replacer in that 1 and 1/14th cups of milk will completely replace the protein in 2 oz. of lean beef. It provides ALL of the requirements needed for young bodies to build muscle and bone since that is what it was designed for (building young livestock).

If you have milk, you don't really _need_ meat. In a hardship condition I'd convert the excess milk to cheese or trade it for other foods or goods that I couldn't produce on my own. It just doesn't make sense for me to feed it back to a calf past the point where the calf would have been weaned and put on pasture normally.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

I find cheese making so labor intensive even with electricity! I cannot imagine doing it on the wood stove in the middle of Summer but I could wait and kill the calf when temps were conducive here....

I agree in its purest form milk is perfect...and I'd love to sell my excess w/o having the FBI come and pay me a visit!

Green beans, potatoes, turnips and squashes always produce for me...I love my tomatoes too but they are fickle producers at best.

London broil at $4.79 a pound regular price does make meat pricey and I fear too many yahoo's will take up hunting w/o proper gun experience/knowledge because of this economy.


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## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

Cyngbaeld said:


> My goats can disappear into the underbrush and have a tendency to do so when strangers are about.
> 
> If all my funds and efforts are tied up in one cow and she dies, I have nothing. Right now I have 5 does and 4 doelings. If I lose one, I have others. Next year I'll have more.
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly. My goats come when called, understand commands, and never run off because they are either bonded or imprinted upon me. They love to eat scrub junk out along the edge of the woods...keeping multiflora roses and honeysuckle ( kudzu if we had it) under some control. I had no trouble with keeping them in a four row electric fence until I brought one home that I hadn't trained to fear the fence.

I find them very willing workers and wonderful milkers who do just as the poster above mentionied; they line up and take turns in order to be milked- I did not have to do a thing but sit and click the head stall in place and give the doe some grain ration before I began milking...

The meat doesn't smell like lamb and is soooo tasty. 

-scrt crk


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## Freeholder (Jun 19, 2004)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> it should also be added that , and i would have never thought i would say this as i like my meat but most could get by on less meat boiled potatoes are the most filling item around per pound and a hand full of dry beans rounds out your protien for the day
> 
> don't get me wrong i like meat i advocate raising your own we raise chickens
> just saing the bean should not be over looked as is reduced meat intake 3 oz is a serving
> ...


*Some* could possibly 'get by' on boiled potatoes and dry beans, but those of us with diabetes would be in a world of hurt on that diet. I can only eat carbs of any kind in very small amounts, so eggs, dairy products, and meat are a very important part of our diet. 

Kathleen


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## SLD Farm (Dec 19, 2007)

Love your wife's quote on goats! How true, how true. I am a fan of the Goat. Hard to keep in, but milk and meat is good. The goat is a versatile animal truely. They can pull a cart or carry a pack, while still feeding you during or at the end of journey if need be.

Traditional sheep carry the burden of their wool , for which in this area at least, there is no market. Can cost a person more to get them sheared then the wool is forth. Hair sheep however I see many advantages and they may be catching on. I have added a small flock here.

Hope to see more writings from you Ernie. You get to the heart of the matter.


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

I've heard it said before "You can feed more people on 3 acres of lentil beans then you could raising a steer on that 3 acres".

I can't afford to eat expensive steaks from the supermarket now. With the cost for a good steak running $5 to $8 dollars a pound I just can't afford that quality of food. That's why we eat more hamburger meat and chicken then anything. And I'm very seriously thinking about cutting most meats out of my diet. Been pondering on making wild game meats and fresh fish being the only meats I eat. If I don't catch it in the wild, I don't eat it. So I might have a lot of meatless meals in the future or I'm gonna have to get serious with hunting and fishing. Last decade I haven't hunted hard or fished very much like I did when I was younger. But things are going to change. 

Reason why I'm going meatless is from the damage Livestock is having on our enviroment. Forrest trees being cleared for pasture. Excessive cattle lot filthe and chicken waste entering our streams and well waters is poisoning our lives. One of these days clean water will be more precious then Gold and Silver.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

Old country boy, my dh and I rarely eat meat. Once in a while we will ahve meat. Sometiems we get rabbit from down the road, its local raised. They have turkey in the fall too and ham. So we tend to eat more meat in the fall. Sometimes I will see a special on meat marked down if it's near it's date and i will pick some up them. Its not that hard to do without, you get used to it.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I've heard it said before "You can feed more people on 3 acres of lentil beans then you could raising a steer on that 3 acres".

Only if you can grow lentils on those three acres. There's plenty of land that you can't grow a crop on around here (or harvest it without a LOT of petroleum products - a whole 'nother ball of wax there!), where cows graze, and have their calves. If land is used efficiently, then you can grow meat on land that won't be productive for vegetable proteins.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Which is why cattle were often raised on range land and then drove to markets like Kansas City.

I'm beginning to reduce my meat consumption, not so much because of the cost yet but because of the ethics of it. I think if we're going to eat meat we have a responsibility to make sure that the animals were raised properly. I don't mean like Wagyu cattle being fed beer and getting their butts massaged each day, but at least living like the animals were intended to live. 

Between my own farm and the local farmers I know, there's no reason at all for me to go into a supermarket and buy meat (except perhaps catfish). 

I know quite a few of the old time farmers who are going along in this vein. That was what convinced me that it wasn't just a topic for enviro-freaks and granola-eating city dwellers.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

There is no way I could grow 3 acres of lentils here. I am just not up to it physically and do not have the equipment for it. A steer can grow out on the grass without me putting forth nearly the effort. Of course, I am not planning to feed grain to the steer.

What I think is wickedly wasteful is all the millions of acres of lawn in this country.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

Cyngbaeld said:


> What I think is wickedly wasteful is all the millions of acres of lawn in this country.


:goodjob::goodjob::goodjob: If everyone who had a lawn chose to plant something, anything that was edible, there would be a whole lot more local grown food for everybody. Extra of what you grow can be traded to a neighbor for some of what they grow. Heck even if you have a shady yard you can still grow usefull things, like shad berry, ginger, elephants ear. Instead of a plain ol' shade tree that people like to plant...why not a tree the produces not only shade but fruit too?


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

We do have a lawn but we do not fertilize it...our free range birds and tied out animals do...when we do mow (about 3 times less than neighbors) it is raked or bagged and fed out to goats and bulls...I do have 3 BIG OLD Cortland apple trees in said lawn and my gardens(well fenced)....I've already given thought to adding more garden space(if necessary) and cleared a hilly wooded spot for an orchard...

My kids like to have room to play w/o splashing thru wet cow pies....and that's the other advantage a goat has...goat poo dries quickly unlike the land mines cows leave!


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

Ernie said:


> Which is why cattle were often raised on range land and then drove to markets like Kansas City.
> 
> I'm beginning to reduce my meat consumption, not so much because of the cost yet but because of the ethics of it. I think if we're going to eat meat we have a responsibility to make sure that the animals were raised properly. I don't mean like Wagyu cattle being fed beer and getting their butts massaged each day, but at least living like the animals were intended to live.
> 
> ...


You can go to www.eatwild.com and find a listing, by state, of small farms raising beef, pork, etc. via pasturing. We found multiple farmers within a short driving distance. Most are happy to have you check out the operation so you can see first-hand how things are done. It's also nice to be able to meet, thank, and shake the hand of the person raising your food. To me, it's a lot more than just a business transaction. In our particular situation, the butchering is done at another small, family business. So, we keep our dollars local and contribute to the livlihoods of two family businesses, all while getting a superior product at a very economical price (if you buy in bulk). The only ones not winning are the large agribusinesses.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Well, I have grass in the yard too. The goats, chickens, geese and turkeys eat it. I meant the worthless lawns that get fertilized and the grass mowed, bagged and hauled off to landfills.


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## Timberline (Feb 7, 2006)

Great writing, Ernie. I like your straightforward manner.

Here's an idea: A good beef cow can be a fine family milker. I've milked dairy cows (and goats), Dexter cattle, etc. for 20+ years. I have found a nice beef cow to be wonderful for a family cow. They provide plenty of rich milk without drowning me in it. I can separate the cow and calf overnight and milk in the morning. If I want extra for butter and cheese, I do this every day. I can do this once or twice a week for just table use. I don't have to worry about mastitis and I don't worry much about milk fever and ketosis during calving season.

Start working with them young and they are no harder to train to milk than a dairy breed. I've trained older cows to milk, too, it can be done. And in a situation where I could not get any other milk, you bet I'd bring in a beef cow. That milk could also be very valuable for bartering.

I get a good beefy calf every year, and we certainly prefer beef over goat or sheep. I went back to commercial beef breeds from Dexters because of the market here, but I milked a lot of Dexters and they are fine little cows for the homestead.

I know most people don't have room to keep cattle, but if you do, a beef cow can provide your milk. And, if the feds really crack down on the home milk supply, who's going to believe you milk that old beefer out in the back pasture?

This is my 14 year old Angus x Hereford. She's put 12 good calves on the ground (hopefully a few more) and look at that udder. She's not a real big cow, about 900#. Her heifer calf in the pic will be kept and trained to milk.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

The daughter is gorgeous! love the coloration and mama looks well endowed too!

How much cream do you get with a beef breed? Compared to say a jersey...my Holstein neighbor gets about 2 inches in a full half gallon mason jar....a jersey would give 3-4 inches in the same jug.....my goats are great homogenizers;-)


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I've heard great things about Dexters, but never had one. When I was growing up in Texas it was all about the Herefords. A few daring ranchers were bringing in Brahman but they tended to be dangerous, or at least they did on my farm. Most of the injuries that my father and I received were from Brahman and the Mexicans who worked with us back in the 70's were very wary of them. If a Brahman so much as looked at them they'd scamper over the nearest fence.

Those are some fine looking stock in that photo. Momma has some fine lines and a good udder. I hate seeing some of those Jerseys who look like they're stepping on theirs. 

Often I get asked by people what to look for when you're purchasing livestock. There's a long list of rules but I've always felt the most cardinal rule was "they've got to be pleasing to the eye." Buy handsome, masculine looking males and sturdy, matronly looking females. If you can't remember anything else about bone structure, teeth condition, scrotum size, or udder placement ... just remember that humans have been looking at animals for 20,000 years and grading them by sight. What looks good to you will more often than not be a decent animal.

And those are some fine looking cows. I'd put their numbers down on my auction card any day.


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## braidsandboots (Jan 7, 2010)

There are many of us out there that don't have land for cows. I'd give my left arm to have land for cows. But a good portion of our 5 acres is a large hollow of trees. Fine for having enough wood but not for cows. Goats on the other hand LOVE all the brush and hiking around the hollow. They thrive in that environment. Most of my friends don't have ideal land and goats are great for that. 

Love this btw and look forward to the rest of your writings on the subject!


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

I saw a jack Hanna show about milking camels...interesting info. here about a woman in NC and skirting the milk laws with camel milk!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124821760380770121.html


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## cnichols (Jan 5, 2010)

Excellent thread Ernie!

While it would, as others have mentioned, be nice to have room for cattle, it's just not possible for us. Because of this we will be going with goats for milk and meat production. Something else that people need to keep on mind is not to over-populated their property. While we do have a few acres, not all of it can/will be used for livestock. And we want to be able to rotate browse for the goats on a regular basis to help cut down on feed requirements.

I've already discussed with my DH the option of planting a large portion of the "yard", that we won't be converting to garden, with clover. This will provide grazing for rabbits, chickens and goats. Bees too if I decide to go that directon. There are plenty of things that can be grown on the periffery of a garden for critters. Sunflower seeds, amaranth, field peas, etc. 

Ernie, I, too, would like to see a bit of info on PBP since I feel they would be a good addition to a homestead that enjoys pork "on occasion". I.E. me DH doesn't do pork at all, but I love it. A 250-300# sow or boar would be way too much, but a smaller PBP would probably be ideal.

Thanks for all the great information you share here and be sure to let us know when the book is ready!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I don't know squat about potbellied pigs.  

I assume that just like sheep there are smaller breeds of hogs here and there and a smaller animal can get by on less hog chow. It might be something to consider if you have limited space. 

Or you could do what I do and just find someone nearby who likes raising hogs and establish some method of payment. 

Of course with anything bigger than a lamb you've got to learn how to smoke the meat. I don't know how big those little pigs actually get. Maybe table size, but I don't think they'd provide very much lard in that case.

They're Vietnamese pigs, aren't they? What do the Vietnamese do with them?


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## cnichols (Jan 5, 2010)

Well, from what I've read, butcher age is about 9 months (on average) and they are approx 90 #'s at that time. Full grown (over 1 yo) average 100-120 lbs.

Here is a pretty good website with some excellent info on PBP.

http://www.windridgefarm.us/index.htm


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Ernie said:


> They're Vietnamese pigs, aren't they? What do the Vietnamese do with them?


I have HEARD that they feed them table scraps, runty vegetables, small amounts of grain,and turn them into pork.


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## jamala (May 4, 2007)

great job! I really enjoyed reading your work. 
We trap wild hogs around here and about 6 years ago my dad kept a pair to breed and use for meat. We keep some of the babies every now and then to replace the old bore and sows. We feed them scraps-- Overgrown garden crops, squash, zuch. melons, corn etc. They eat most anything and the meat is good, we keep the fat to mix with our deer meat for sausage.


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## Wilbursmommy (Feb 27, 2003)

Pbp's can get pretty darn big. I've raised them and I gave away a boar who got really big with huge tusks. He was a scary fellow, especially when he took to charging. I gave him to a local farmer who claimed that he wanted to breed him, but I have my doubts about that.
They are also very smart and never forget. If they charge you, you better hold your ground. Because if you turn and run, they will never see you as the boss again. They will challenge you over and over. A sensitive area for them is their snout. Had to kick the big boar right in the face to get him to back off one day. That's when we decided to get rid of him.
pbp's are like other pigs and love to eat. They will pretty much eat anything. I never fed mine meat, so they didn't smell bad. It doesn't matter how much you feed them, they will eat more. If you have some wooded land that you can fence, they will stay busy rooting up everything they consider edible. When I boarded 17 pbp's for a neighbor a few years ago, we set the hog panels up around some blackberry bushes I wanted to get rid of. I had been trying to get the canes and roots out of that area for 2 years. I boarded the pigs for 8 months. That area is now one of the most productive in my garden.


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## Kmac15 (May 19, 2007)

(thread drift)
We raised up a couple pigs with full access to a large area that still got overrun with passion flowers, I even spread corn around the area and they wouldn't root it out *sigh*


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

about 20 years ago, back when I was in the burbs, there was a house down the block that was always one of those--no landscaping, dead grass, window shades always pulled, etc. Turns out people were raising pot bellied pigs INSIDE the house(house as a barn). The city snatched the housem fixed it and resold it, all the subfloor and drywall had to be ripped out.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Goats will clean out passion flowers so fast it'll make your head swim.


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## Kmac15 (May 19, 2007)

Cyngbaeld said:


> Goats will clean out passion flowers so fast it'll make your head swim.


Now you tell me LOL :shocked:


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## Firefly (Dec 7, 2005)

mpillow said:


> This is my situation too. My gals are trained and even our bull calves, are very well behaved for the most part...trained to ride for fun by my oldest daughter


Riding a calf sounds like so much fun! BUT, just before I read your post I read the following article, so I want you to be aware: http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=161883&highlight=bottle+males


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## FrontPorch (Mar 27, 2008)

Very nice article. And explains the reason why I rotate pastures with my sheep and goats. One will eat what the other won't. You might want to add a warning about sheep worming their way into your hearts and becoming pets. I wouldn't be able to eat my Sophia, Dorothy, Blanche and Rose unless they truely were the last animals on earth. In fact, I think I would eat the dogs first...


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

Ernie,

I'll agree with others that you have a good way of writing and a nice way of conveying information in a way that makes a person want to read more. But I have a couple of comments if you really are looking at self-publishing.

-Get some geek like me (or one of the many here) who have loads of experience writing for publishing to go over your grammar and english. You have some awkwardness and regionalism makes a show too. It will make your writing more user friendly to all English speakers.
- Ditch the Man thing. Nothing alienates strong females (who homestead just as much as men and now, happily, populate as lurkers at least survival forums at fair rates) than the whole he-man thing. What difference does it make ultimately to write something that says, "So what's a person to do?" rather than "So what is a Man to do?". It alienates half your audience and creates an aritifical line between You and Them that will mean a lot of the good work you do will be lost in the Man-ness.
- Get someone who likes the ones you don't (animal wise) to add those parts. Pigs in particular were uber popular (especially those old breeds that are nothing like those we have today with backs as long as cadillacs for bacon) with the very poor because they were so hardy and so lacking in need of care. And yes, you can feed them almost anything or they will find it themselves. Good return on little investment with a pig. BUT, they are loud.
- Address regionality: Super important when conveying this kind of info. Pigs in Arizona will need more care and get sunburns. (My ex used to put sunscreen on his pet girl every morning before work) while they are almost carefree in the hills of much of the country. Rabbits ditto need more care in places where it gets blazing hot. Chickens in the mountains require different care than down here by the coast and also different breeds do better in some situations.

In short, I really loved it as the Intro to a more comprehensive work and those are just a few of my very well meant comments into that furture work.

I like the idea, very much, of you starting a publishing place for this type of work. I'd buy them too...from composting to setting up bandit traps...so long as I didn't feel like I was spending a day in a fire and brimstone church through reading them. Let us know!


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## rightathome (Feb 10, 2009)

One thing to keep in mind when assessing the nutrient value of an animal is that the bones (of pastured animals) are a fantastic source of minerals and fat. In a hardship situation, the bones are one of the most valuable parts of the animal, and to discard them not knowing their worth would be a sad mistake. Making bone broth is practically a lost art. Although the skill is enjoying a comeback in traditional foods circles, few people in general know what to do to draw the nutrients out of bones in the most efficient way anymore. The pot of bone broth one can simmer out of a chicken carcass or what have you, because of its filling and nourishing nature, can help stretch the meat to provide more meals than the carcass alone would. I wonder if the calorie calculations take the value of the bones into account?


Also, the organ meats can't be overlooked - not the favorite of American diners, I know, but my theory is that under the stress of hardship, nutrition is even more critical and offal needs to be looked at in terms of what it can deliver that the human body requires. I figure it just makes storing and growing herbs and spices more important since we'll have to hide that liver somehow...:huh:


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Your writing style sounds a lot like Bradford Angier (did I spell that right?). The Man thing doesn't bother me personally and didn't tick me off as a female, though I can see Christy's point about the wider audience etc--it's sad to say but the man n family point of view is anachronistic. On the other hand, like I said, it didnt bother ME. And I have a lot of those Brad Angier books on my shelf(along with others of his era).

(GOlly I love me a He-Man hehe) If your content is good and usable, your style will set you apart and make a "brand". Good grief, someone published The Road and that's the most horrible-writing-styled book I've ever read(well, I read the first page, then hurled). Your Man stuff is fine for your intended audience. And by the time it spreads elsewhere the Man thing will not be an issue--people will be lookign for solid, simple advice(again, just my opinion, ha)

You need to address pidgeon, steak-that-flies

The hardest thing about writing is finding your voice, and being confident in it. Sure editors can fix you up(so can a spell checker), or a good reader can catch awkward phrasing. Dont' let editing screwup/change your voice. People enjoy reading writers with strong, unique voices(or else bodice ripping trash...sigh).


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

There is a new food movement(out of permaculture I think) called nose-to-tail eating, it;s all about eating ALL of the animal, no waste. I think it's a bigger deal in Europe than here(since they still eat more organ meats).


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Good article, Ernie! I agree that rabbits are a wonderful source of meat for a family. I like too, that their poop is ready to go right on the garden without aging it.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

The free and readily available meat thing is the only good part about living in this neighborhood. I've got access to some of the best fishing in the state, plenty of squirrel, rabbit and groundhog, even a deer or two if I could lure one in during the season. Raccoon and possums abound but I would have to be pretty hungry before munching on them. Canadian geese are right here on the creek most of the year. I'm sure there's other game that I haven't mentioned but those are the most prevalent.


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