# When one pet kills another



## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Sorry, my fingers are stiff and that title was supposed to be 'PET' not pne.

Oh Lord, it hurts to relive this in this post. For those who don't remember, I have four inside dogs- a four year old heeler we've had for three years, a year and a half old corgi we've had for almost a year, a probable jack russell/dashund (that just looks like it's spelled wrong, lol) mix that found us in NM, so no idea on his age and finally, a foundling older corgi who found us about seven months ago and who just came inside around October of last year.

Now....

Obviously, I have herding dogs and they like to herd- nothing like their counterparts who live outside and actually work for a living (other folks' dogs- I just have one outside dog). A few times a day, one or two will try to herd one of the cats (all older, all except one is 12-13 yrs old) and once I hear feet scrabbling on the hardwood, all I have to do is say 'Leave it' and they're by my side instantly. They've never shown any aggression towards the cats and usually curl up to sleep with several of them sharing a room. Eat/drink next to them and everything.

The heeler is shut up in the dining room if noone is home, she and the younger corgi had an issue in the past and the heeler was crate trained, so she finds comfort in her rug on the floor (treat tossed in as we leave helps as well  ). The other three have the run of the house. 

I took the kids to school last Thursday and was gone 15 minutes, tops. When I came home, there lay one of the cats, dead in the kitchen. Looks like they tried to herd her in the foyer, through the living room and into the kitchen. The older corgi was standing over her, with the younger looking on. They were both breathing hard, so I know they both were involved. I do have to say I suspect the older corgi most- she was an outside dog for who knows how until I brought her in and when she is taken to the barn, she watches the other animals and seems to be 'working' them from the other side of the fence. No aggression, but if they separate, she wants them back together. The younger corgi, bless her heart, is an idiot. She's always had a short attention span and whenever a cat would growl/hiss at her, she'd yelp and run to me. I don't think she'd hurt the cats under her own power, but when accompanied by a more experienced dog with more attention span..... she did. 

I wonder if the older dog had been in trouble for something like this before, it was days after the incident before she would come to us for attention and when I found them, she dropped her head and slunk away. 

Now, when we leave the house, the older corgi is in another room, with the door shut. 

The dogs still eat/drink/sleep next to the other cats and the cats show no fear. I truely hope this was an isolated incident and by not allowing her free reign of the house, this will never happen again. 

Having to pick up my friend of 12 years and deposit her still warm body in a garbage bag was haunting- I keep trying to remember her how she was that last night- peering over the edge of the stairs, talking to me at dinnertime. 

I still have hard feelings towards the corgis- particularly the older one. I try not to- she's obviously had a rough life, a bad break that was untreated in a front leg and her fear of children- in addition to her poor condition from being a throwaway. But still.... how do I get over this feeling? Will it ever end? Seeing them flipped on their backs, sleeping on the couch or curled up with one of the kids- well, it's just hard to reconcile that image with a killer.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

So sorry to hear this. I don't blame you for having hard feelings. I have to say that if one of my dogs killed one of my cats, it would probably be the last thing they ever did.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

I can definitely sympathize I am sorry for your loss. However, no matter which dog did cause the cat's death none of them are murderers. Dog's are carnivores, they are, by nature, hunters. It will not get anyone anywhere to hold a dog's nature against them.

It is us as their owners and caretakers that have to set them up to succeed and live peaceably. Dogs and cats should not be left unsupervised in closed quarters. My own personal practices are that no animal is left loose in the house when I am not around. There is no end of trouble and danger they can get into in a house... we keep poisons (raisins can be deadly to dogs along with a lot of other perfectly healthy human foods!) where they can get into them with a little will and time.

Dogs are wonderful companions, indispensable tools and kindred spirits to humans... but first and foremost they are predators that we keep in our homes. They need our respect as such as much as they need our care and affection!


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Can you place the offending dog in a home with no cats? IME if they kill a cat once, they are likely to do it again. Unless you are willing to lose another cat the only option is to either euthanize or place the dog. Otherwise, unfortunately, your other cats just got put on "warning". 

Can't blame a dog for being a dog...but if a dog is being a dog and bites a child, I still would never allow that dog in the same house as a child ever again. Same rule applies to cats.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I am so sorry, that has to be terribly difficult.

I've rarely had house cats, but have always had several house dogs and generally breeds that are often considered 'dog aggressive' dogs. I have always been very careful about what dogs I left out together ... unsupervised ... when I was not in the house and thankfully have never had any issues. However, there were definitely dogs I would not ever leave out together without someone in the house with them.

I've also had dogs that were fine with livestock by themselves ... but with another dog that was stock aggressive, would join in an attack. Pack behavior and something that is simply instinct for a dog, not something that is corrected by training, etc.

I have no idea what would have triggered an attack on the cat, but suspect it was a situation where they may have started 'herding' ... nipped when the cat didn't herd in the right direction ... cat reacted and dogs resorted to pack behavior ... one grabs and the other joins in.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I have found comfort in burying pets in the back yard. I also think you need to rehome the corgi you think is the instigator. My first suspect would be the doxie Jack, both breeds are known to be excellent vermin hunters. Jack Russels have been known to kill the cat they grew up with. I would have looked for blood on the muzzles or throats of all of them. 

Once a pack gets into a frenzy, even a soft dog will join in. Given that, if the older corgi didn't kill the cat, but did give such a chase that the others joined in, rehoming him should still keep the peace. Don't feel bad. You've given him seven good months that he wouldn't have had, and he could be a wonderful companion for someone else.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Oh- Maura's comment reminded me- it's DEFINITELY not the New Mexico mix. This is the most docile and terrified dog in the world. Scared to death of the cats and the wind and the sound of guns (toy or not) and flyswatters, video games, microwave timers, dryer buzzers... you get the picture. When the other dogs play with their rope toys, he runs to a human, shaking. Running/playing/barking terrifies him. I don't know what happened in the little fella's life before us, but he's definitely scarred. 

And there was no blood- ANYWHERE. None on the cat, the floor, the dogs- nothing. Little tufts of hair in the three rooms, but that's it.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

With no blood anywhere, I wonder if one of the Corgi's just got too 'aggressive' with the herding (some herding dogs will 'grab'), happened to clamp down too hard, or twist/flip the cat just right to break the neck? It does not really sound like a 'pack mentality' attack from what you describe.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

bluemoonluck said:


> Can you place the offending dog in a home with no cats? IME if they kill a cat once, they are likely to do it again. Unless you are willing to lose another cat the only option is to either euthanize or place the dog. Otherwise, unfortunately, your other cats just got put on "warning"...


There is another option. We've lost three cats to dogs. Broke our hearts so I know what you are going through and I am so sorry. 

One of the incidents took place outside. It involved our dog Aine, who was a Malinous mix. She STALKED cats, but was in the fenced in backyard and none of the cats ever went back there...until a new cat decided to explore. I was not home, but hubby saw it happen. The cat never had a chance, Aine was on her in a second. When I got home hubby was ready to shoot Aine, but I knew that would break his heart even more so we took her to the local shelter and gave her up, letting them know she could not be placed in a home with cats.

Now, for the other option...after we lost a couple cats in the house while we were gone we are extremely careful about how we separate cats and dogs before we go somewhere. All cats indoors are gathered up and shut in the master bedroom. We keep food, water and a litterbox in our bathroom so they have everything they need. We double check that there are no cats anywhere in the house (hubby does head counts multiple times) and we double check that the door is securely shut. Then hubby puts a baby gate across the stairs so none of the dogs can go up there.

This is the only way we can keep the cats safe from the dogs. When we are home we've never (other than Aine) had trouble with the dogs and cats getting along. They sleep together, they groom one another, etc. But we have learned the hard way that when we're coming up the driveway the dogs get overly excited and they will kill a cat when they're in a frenzy...pack mentality I guess. It is our responsibility to make sure all our animals are safe and we take it very seriously. 

Again, I am so sorry for the loss of your cat. My heart goes out to you. I hope that you will be able to forgive the dogs for being dogs and let go of your resentment. I had many long talks with hubby on doing this and, while it took him some time, he realizes that the dogs were not killing the cats for any reason other than they were dogs. Good luck! Hopefully if you take the right measures it won't happen again.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I am just very very sorry. I know you are heartbroken. ((hugs))


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## crispin (Jun 30, 2010)

I have mentioned it here a couple of times.
For the last 2 years we have had our small dogs and puppies mauled and / or killed.
Always thought it was a Great Pernese we HAD but always gave it doubt / second chance.
Around a month ago we caught her in the process of killing 12 hour old puppies that another one of our dogs had just birthed. My DSO was screaming for me to come help her I ran out and kicked the Perenese in the ribs. It ran off and then turned back around and grabbed a puppy it had killed and ran off into the woods with it.

I woke up early the next morning, quietly walked up to where the Perense was sleeping, and I shot her in the back of the head.

Had I had done that 2 years eairlier when I first suspected her of killing, many cute sweet puppies would have had a better and longer life.

Put the dog down, it will happen again.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

I'm sorry but cannibalism is different from preying on another species of animal. What your pyr did proved it was imbalanced and putting it down was absolutely the right thing to do. 

This is a different issue.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Sorry this happened! I would try to re-home the dog you think caused the problem. I think you will remember this incident every time you look at that dog, and that is no way to live for you or the dog. If you can't find a suitable home and have to put it down, while that's also very hard on the heart, sometimes it just has to be done. 

Also, don't leave any dogs at large with cats in the house when you are gone. I have heard versions of this story sooooo many times, how well they got along for years and then the big dog killed the little dog, or the dog killed the cat, or whatever. I think we sometimes forget they are animals and they simply don't possess "moral standards" or whatever you want to call it.


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## GoldenMom (Jan 2, 2005)

I wonder if the cat had a heart problem? Twelve is about the right age. Maybe the dogs were herding/chasing and it was too much for the heart? Maybe they didn't directly kill the cat...if he/she had a heart problem, it was just a matter of time before it gave out.


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## cjb (May 2, 2006)

Agree on rehoming the corgi. There's individual and possibly group dynamic there that just won't work.

Many dogs are re-homed with the stipulation that cats cannot be there.


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## cjb (May 2, 2006)

GoldenMom said:


> I wonder if the cat had a heart problem? Twelve is about the right age. Maybe the dogs were herding/chasing and it was too much for the heart? Maybe they didn't directly kill the cat...if he/she had a heart problem, it was just a matter of time before it gave out.


I wondered about this too but then.... "tufts of hair around the room.."


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

cjb said:


> I wondered about this too but then.... "tufts of hair around the room.."


Possibly the "don't just lay there, we're herding dogs and you are supposed to be going THAT WAY" ?? I have seen some herding dogs get pretty aggressive moving something.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

I wondered if there might have been something wrong with her- the talking to me at dinner time from the staircase NEVER happened before, this cat was SO food needy (not aggressive, as she would share- but she always felt she needed to steal it) she would swipe human food right off the plate if you weren't watching That night, I had to take the food to her, but I didn't think much about it, as she acted normal the rest of the night.

I thought maybe they'd scared her to death with the herding. We had a cat a few years ago (also in the early teens) that just laid down and died in his sleep. It was heart related.

You may be right, SFM. These two are the ones who 'share' a rope toy. Running around with it in both their mouths. 

I'm glad you weighed in, Raven. You're the first one I thought of, wondering if you'd ever gone through this. 

I'm sorry, I won't rehome the corgi. If I thought this was done maliciously, then certainly. I suspect it was a case of a old herding dog doing what a herding dog does- when it really shouldn't have.  

I'm not one for passing on problems- with my raised and socialized properly akita, I ended up keeping her in a six foot kennel AND on a thick wire lead when she became aggressive. When we moved to NM and couldn't take her, then we had her put down.

I will continue to keep her up when we leave- she's content to go in the spare room and hops on the bed (after a good run and go) and sleeps. Something tells me she doesn't have much time left- just a feeling I have....


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## SageLady (Jun 10, 2008)

I have a corgi, a pug, and a chihuahua. They all chase the cat incessantly. The cat seems to enjoy the chase, but I NEVER leave them alone together ever. My dogs get into squabbles sometimes too. Whenever we are gone all 3 dogs go into their own individual crates and the cat gets the run of the house. Everyone is safe and I don't have to worry. I know that things could get out of hand at anytime, afterall they are animals....

My deepest sympathy for the loss of your cat, but I think you need to let go of the bad feelings you have towards any of your dogs. You don't know for sure who might of killed the cat or if they even killed the cat - the cat itself could of just died from its heart stopping during some hardy play. I had a cat died just a couple weeks ago from his heart suddenly stopping. He was fine minutes before. No one hurt him, I was right there.
It happens....

I think in the future though, for the safety of all, they should ALL be separated and secured in different crates or rooms whenever you are not there to supervise them. Again, they are animals, and you just never know....


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## crispin (Jun 30, 2010)

CraterCove said:


> I'm sorry but cannibalism is different from preying on another species of animal. What your pyr did proved it was imbalanced and putting it down was absolutely the right thing to do.
> 
> This is a different issue.


I agree -- you are right.
it is different.
I am still a bit upset over what happened to those puppies.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

I can't say that I blame you, Crispin. That would have been horrific to experience- and I mean from the two year ago experience, to the newer one, from having to put the dog down and the 'what-ifs' that followed. 
A friend had bought a beautiful blue heeler female and bred her with the farm's aging male heeler. AMAZING dog, so he was hoping for a last litter before ol' Bo died. She gave birth and all the pups lived. One was blind in one eye and I agreed to take him as a pet- no use for a damaged dog on a working farm. The pups grew, learned to eat and were doing great. One day, about two and a half months after they were born, he came upon the female savagely killing every single pup. He shot her on the spot. 
I've heard of dogs killing pups at birth (both the ***** and unrelated dogs) but never this late in the game. 
Sad, regardless.


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## TJN66 (Aug 29, 2004)

I'm so sorry for your loss.

If it were me the dog would be gone/put down. My cats are part of my "pack" and they dont get hurt, herded, played with ever. I couldnt look at my dog again if he killed one of my cats.


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## wogglebug (May 22, 2004)

You have a dog that will voluntarily and happily kill members of the family, or guests in the house. And make no mistake - dogs are fully capable of understanding that other animals are family members, just as much so as people. A chicken-killing dog - outside animals - is bad enough, but with effort some of them can be retrained. This is a completely different level of activity, and the risk is horrendous.

It would be crazy to keep the problem, knowing there's a risk it could be a guest's baby (or your own - I don't know your personal situation) next time. It would be immoral to pass the problem on, particularly without warning, to someone else. If you are going to act morally, at this point your decision is how many or how few dogs you MUST put down.


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## lasgsd (Aug 9, 2004)

I have twice been through this exact same situation - a dog killed a cat.

The first one was VERY hard for me to get through. My girl Neke, a German Shepherd, had been raised with the cat. They ate together, slept together, played together and there was NEVER any sign of anything other than friendship.

The cat had to have leg surgery and when I left the house for the day I accidentally shut him in the kitchen with the dogs. There was a half door that would normally have been no problem for him to jump if he needed to get away.

I came home to find the cat dead. No blood, neck broken. I brought my dog back to my breeders house and asked them to watch her for me for a few days while I tried to figure out what happened and decide on what to do.

After speaking with them, my trainers and several friends I came to realize what most likely happened was that the cat was trying to jump over the half door and couldn't manage it. This appeared to be a 'wounded prey' moment for the Shepherd and she acted on it.

It was not vicious. It was not premeditated. It was not done in meanness.

It was simply a dog acting like a dog.

I went and picked up my dog and forgave her. I also made SURE that my other cat always had an escape route from the dogs.

The second incident was my Skye Terrier attacking and tearing apart one of my cats. The dog had grown up with the cat just like my Shepherd. The main difference was the ACT of the killing. It wasn't just killed - it was torn apart.

I rehomed the Skye with people that had NO cats.

I would suggest forgiving the dog (for being a dog) and making sure, in future, that your Corgis are NOT allowed freedom around the cats when you aren't there to supervise.

Your cats are probably used to being around the dogs and wouldn't think to run for safety until it became too late.

I trust my current pack of dogs 100% with my cats ... but whenever we aren't home the dogs are locked AWAY from the cats.

They are DOGS. They have instincts that, no matter what we do and no matter how 'tame' we think they are, can kick in at any time.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

crispin said:


> I agree -- you are right.
> it is different.
> I am still a bit upset over what happened to those puppies.


I think that infants being killed is one of those things that strikes you hard no matter what species they are. It's supposed to, it is not only morally reprehensible in humans but it's lizard brain level wrong... other species ostracize and kill their own who kill infants without cause.

It is my opinion that the people saying put the Corgi down are reacting emotionally and not necessarily rationally, in this case. The dog, as someone else pointed out, had not torn the cat to shreds. When a dog is killing for... how to put it? 'business' it's clean and fast. There is very little blood. If they had then taken the cat and shredded it I would be much more concerned about the Corgi's mental health.

It's a herding dog, probably not trained to herd and so that instinct has turned into an increased prey drive. Making sure the animals are not allowed opportunity to make mistakes in this way again would very likely be the end of the problem.

Dogs are not humans. Dogs cannot always overcome an instinctive drive with rational thought. Dogs do have emotions but one cannot construe that they have morals from that fact. Not only that but dogs and cats communicate and behave in very different manners. And there is the possibility that something was wrong with the cat. I know from experience with breeders that sometimes a pack will turn on an alpha dog if they sense/ smell something off, like a wasting sickness of some kind. I know at least one person who watches for changes in the pack's behavior towards one of its members as first indication that one of their dog's need to be seen by a vet.

Of course the final decision is the O.P.'s and they seem to me to be a caring animal owner. I am sure they will decide to do what is best for their family and situation. It's a tragic thing to have to go through.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

You're welcome. I think that is the wisest thing to do...keep the dogs and cats safely separated when you have to be away from home. It works for us.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Any time you get 3 dogs together you have a pack. Pack mentality is different than individual dog behavior. You have 4 dogs, you have a pack of dogs.

You do not know that the corgi killed the cat. What people insist on interpreting as "guilt" in dogs is not guilt. It is submission and appeasement. So all you know is that the corgi is the dog that is the most concerned that you are obviously upset. It does not mean that the corgi did anything wrong. All the corgi is doing is reassuring you that you are the boss and they won't challenge your authority.

An old cat might have just died and the dogs played with the body. Or the pack hunting instinct might have kicked in.

I suggest that you do not leave a pack of dogs together when no one is home with them. Separate them into groups of 2 dogs or less. Separate them from the cats.

Cats are _not_ family members. Cats are prey. If you leave a pack of dogs together with prey, sometimes Mother Nature takes her course. It does not mean the dogs are bad. It means the dogs are dogs.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

I only have two dogs, but they are extremely intelligent Border Collies, and that is enough to form a pack in my house. My roommate has a cat. My dogs stay in the same room as me about 95% of the time. The other 5%, they lay in the back room, where it's dark and cool, and sleep. When the roommate moved in, I bought a baby gate that is tall enough that the dogs COULD jump it if they really wanted to, but know they are not supposed to (and I got the tallest gate I could find, so jumping it would be a slight effort). They've been raised to respect boundaries. When I sleep at night, the baby gate goes up. When I'm out of the house and the dogs aren't with me, the baby gate goes up. I've explained it to the roomie as, "The cat should be allowed some free time to roam the house without worrying about where the dogs are..." What this also means is - I don't want to be responsible for my dogs hurting your cat, even if they've never tried to hurt her before. They are out of herding stock, and they are VERY high herding drive. My female BC will stare at that cat for hours, and then slowly creep toward her, until she's reprimanded for staring/stalking. I've often watched her when she doesn't know I'm there, and she will let the cat walk right past her nose and not even offer to sniff her, just stare. When she does chase, she's not trying to be an evil killer or anything. It's triggered by the cat running. It's just in her genes. She wants to stare, she wants to walk up to it, she wants to nip at it as it's running past her face, she wants to give chase. So for the safety of the cat, my dogs, and my own peace of mind, whenever I cannot be vigilant, the baby gate goes up. If I was worried about the dogs not respecting the gate, I would lock them in my room. My room is the only one down the hall though, so I give them extra air flow and room by putting the baby gate at the end of the hallway. When the dogs are in the hall, I have often seen the cat slowly walk over and look down the hall, but she doesn't approach the gate, and she is very quiet in her curiosity, so the dogs don't even show her any interest.

I have a friend who has a Pit and a BC and two cats - one older adult cat, and one very old senior cat. The dogs have lived with the cats for years with no issues, but when the dogs came over to my house to visit, my roomie's cat triggered the Pit to chase her. No bloodthirsty craziness, but the slow, suspicious way the cat has learned to move around my BC's to not trigger them to chase was instantly suspicious to the Pit, as the cats in her house just walk right past her, over her, and under her, like she's not even there. But my roomie's cat staring at her and slowly creeping across the living room triggered a, "Something's not right with that thing!" reaction, and she pounced after her. So different things are definitely going to trigger different animals...

My male dog has killed chickens before, but I think he just gave them heart attacks. They were never tore up, never had holes, and were just found dead, with slobber on them. He tried to pick up a Polish that walked across his feet once when I was at the barn and I acted like the world was ending over it. He showed no meanness at all, just simply reached down to pick it up, kind of looking at it in a curious manner. I'm sure in the past that was what he did, and when he succeeded in picking them up, he literally scared them to death. I did find a slobbery chicken (no blood) in the dog kennel once, hiding in an empty feed bucket, terrified to come out. I think if he wanted to kill the chicken, if that was his goal, he could have yanked her out of the bucket and tore her up or ate her, but he was looking at them more like toys than food or something to kill... My pet guinea pig died the same way... The dogs knocked over his cage and when I found him, he was hiding behind my door and had some slobber on him. When I picked him up, he freaked out, had a heart attack, and died in my hands. I think he thought the dogs had got him when I grabbed him. I still think if I would have left him behind the door to calm down, and picked him up later, he would have been okay, but me grabbing him was just the icing on the cake.

Annnnndddd it's almost 4 am and I'm babbling. Good night!


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Thanks everyone for weighing in. I appreciate the comments and the stories. It helps to put things in perspective. Like I said before, if there were any sign of aggression or 'shredding' there'd be no question. 
So for now, it's older corgi in the guest room, heeler in the dining room and the younger corgi and the weenie (referring to his mental capacity, not just half his breed) out in the house when we're gone. 

Cratercove- I've seen what you're talking about with horses. I'm pretty involved with TN's oldest and largest equine facility and we recently worked a case with a large number of horses that had been living feral for six years, with no human interaction at all. One horse, out of the multiple 'families' was riddled with cancer. Not ONE family would allow this horse to be with them. If the ill animal came near, it was pushed away by the herd stallion and the alpha mare. While it was sad to watch, knowing that horses are pack animals, it was also amazing to observe true nature at work.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

CraterCove said:


> I can definitely sympathize I am sorry for your loss. However, no matter which dog did cause the cat's death none of them are murderers. Dog's are carnivores, they are, by nature, hunters. It will not get anyone anywhere to hold a dog's nature against them.
> 
> Dogs are wonderful companions, indispensable tools and kindred spirits to humans... but first and foremost they are predators that we keep in our homes. They need our respect as such as much as they need our care and affection!


I completely agree with this. A dog killing a cat does not make the dog vicious. These are animals. And dogs have killed to eat or to protect since the beginning of time. Keeping both dogs and cats together in a home always has that risk. It could have happened the other way too. What if you had a chihuahua puppy? A cat could easily kill it, even devour it. Does that make a cat vicious? No. It's just prey drive.

When all is said and done, these are all animals. They don't reason, think, have empathy or plans. They just have instinct and drives. You cannot blame them for being animals.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

oregon woodsmok said:


> Any time you get 3 dogs together you have a pack. Pack mentality is different than individual dog behavior. You have 4 dogs, you have a pack of dogs.
> 
> I suggest that you do not leave a pack of dogs together when no one is home with them..


In many cases, two dogs can be a pack. Years ago I had a goat attacked by two of my own Rottweilers, neither of whom had showed any signs of aggression individually with the goat.

The alpha female did have a very strong prey drive but the male did not, in fact I'd found him with baby rabbits that had fallen out of the cage, unharmed but very well washed!

I didn't see the initial attack, but I'd guess the goat made a quick movement, which triggered the prey drive in the female and my 'gentle' male was actively involved as well.

With 20 years of experience raising Rottweilers as a background, I do not even leave my two house dogs together alone in the house if I am going to be gone more than outside doing chores. They have been together for seven years but it is just so much easier to avoid a problem than have to deal with the aftermath.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

oregon woodsmok said:


> Cats are _not_ family members. Cats are prey.


I respectfully disagree. Cats are members of the family, they belong to the humans, not to the dogs to do with as they please. If raised with them, dogs *should* perceive the cats as family members and respect them as such. Killing chickens? Frustrating, but understandable in the dogs POV. Chickens do not live in the house and sleep on the bed, they ARE prey, and behave in ways that trigger prey drive. Killing a strange cat that entered the yard? I'd be upset, and that dog would be watched carefully, but I wouldn't shoot it. However, I personally would not accept the "dogs will be dogs" argument to excuse killing a family member, and I would not keep such a dog, no matter how sweet it was or how much I loved it.

I have heard many stories of dogs who were raised with cats attacking and killing them. When cats act like prey, some dogs just go into prey mode (especially in a pack situation), but it's not something I would excuse. 

In OP's situation, the corgi's past is unknown and so to him the cats are not regarded as family. So in this case it may simply be a matter of a dog acting like a dog, but it still isn't excusable IMO. I love my cats and I will not have them live with a known cat-killer.


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## Ruby (May 10, 2002)

In OP's situation, the corgi's past is unknown and so to him the cats are not regarded as family. So in this case it may simply be a matter of a dog acting like a dog, but it still isn't excusable IMO. I love my cats and I will not have them live with a known cat-killer. 

But in this case she is not even SURE the dog killed the cat. The cat may have died on it's own. The dogs may have just been curious and was standing over the dead cat. There fore looked suspicious.

If it were me I would just make sure they are kept seperated when I wasn't around.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Ruby said:


> But in this case she is not even SURE the dog killed the cat. The cat may have died on it's own. The dogs may have just been curious and was standing over the dead cat. There fore looked suspicious.


The "tufts of hair" OP found in the house do seem to indicate a struggle, and I'd not take chances. Keeping the dog separated from the cats is a wise choice if she is to keep the dog.


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## Oregon Julie (Nov 9, 2006)

All of this talk of bitches killing pups needs to be addressed. While it is possible that they are unbalanced in the head-brain tumor or something, it some cases it may well be that they have eclampsia and don't know what they are doing. I know of a number of litters that were harmed by mom because of this. A trip to the vet and some calcium solves the problem, without a bullet to the head.

As to the Corgi, I wouldn't re-home it. I would crate the dog when I was not able to watch it. I say this rather then shutting it in another room because I think it is safer. I owned a Parson Russell Terrier ***** for a number of years who killed another dog in a friends household and they had been doing the "lock each dog in a different room" thing. A door did not close completely and they came home to a tragic situation. That ***** never had a problem with any other dogs, just that one. 

In the case of my breed I tell people if you have two that hate each other you need to place one, it is too stressful for all involved to try to keep them apart. With the Corgi and the cat I think it was most likely a mistake and a bad situation with an old cat, but to be on the safe side I would crate the dog.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

[[[.....Cats are members of the family, they belong to the humans, not to the dogs to do with as they please. If raised with them, dogs *should* perceive the cats as family members and respect them as such..]]]]

So if you came home and your cats had killed your canary, maybe the cats should be considered dangerous and gotten rid of or PTS because they had killed a family member? Because if the cats are raised with the canary they should respect the canary as a family member and know that it was yours and not theirs to do with as they pleased?


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

Oregon Julie said:


> All of this talk of bitches killing pups needs to be addressed. While it is possible that they are unbalanced in the head-brain tumor or something, it some cases it may well be that they have eclampsia and don't know what they are doing. I know of a number of litters that were harmed by mom because of this. A trip to the vet and some calcium solves the problem, without a bullet to the head.


You are absolutely right. However, it was my impression that the canine killing the pups was not the mother. But I could have misinterpreted.


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## TJN66 (Aug 29, 2004)

oregon woodsmok said:


> [[[.....Cats are members of the family, they belong to the humans, not to the dogs to do with as they please. If raised with them, dogs *should* perceive the cats as family members and respect them as such..]]]]
> 
> So if you came home and your cats had killed your canary, maybe the cats should be considered dangerous and gotten rid of or PTS because they had killed a family member? Because if the cats are raised with the canary they should respect the canary as a family member and know that it was yours and not theirs to do with as they pleased?


I have 4 cats, a german shepherd and a cockatiel. The cats do not bother the bird ever. Even when he is out flying around the room they just look at him and leave the room. That is what training does. Same for the dog. When that training is broke I am no longer the leader of the pack and the dog needs to realize he is not alpha I am. Killing of any pack members and my dog would be gone, if my cat killed my bird, cat would be gone. Its my responsiblility to keep them all safe. The only way to do that is by being the leader period. If they cant follow the know rules (there are not many here) they are gone. It is never acceptable to hurt one of the pack. 
Cats do learn and can follow the rules too. Just as smart as dogs I have found...they just play aloof most of the time.


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## TJN66 (Aug 29, 2004)

Wolf Flower said:


> I respectfully disagree. Cats are members of the family, they belong to the humans, not to the dogs to do with as they please. If raised with them, dogs *should* perceive the cats as family members and respect them as such. Killing chickens? Frustrating, but understandable in the dogs POV. Chickens do not live in the house and sleep on the bed, they ARE prey, and behave in ways that trigger prey drive. Killing a strange cat that entered the yard? I'd be upset, and that dog would be watched carefully, but I wouldn't shoot it. However, I personally would not accept the "dogs will be dogs" argument to excuse killing a family member, and I would not keep such a dog, no matter how sweet it was or how much I loved it.
> 
> I have heard many stories of dogs who were raised with cats attacking and killing them. When cats act like prey, some dogs just go into prey mode (especially in a pack situation), but it's not something I would excuse.
> 
> In OP's situation, the corgi's past is unknown and so to him the cats are not regarded as family. So in this case it may simply be a matter of a dog acting like a dog, but it still isn't excusable IMO. I love my cats and I will not have them live with a known cat-killer.


Agree with you totally on this.


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## SageLady (Jun 10, 2008)

cjb said:


> I wondered about this too but then.... "tufts of hair around the room.."


My cat is presently leaving tufts of hair here and there in our house. The result of losing his winter coat.... He plays heartily with our corgi, pug and chihuahua and often the fur flies! Again, I doubt your dogs killed your cat, but was herding it and the cat simply died because it was its time due to a heart problem or whatever....


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Oregon Julie said:


> ...A door did not close completely and they came home to a tragic situation...


This is what happened to one of our cats and is why we now check and double check doors and put a gate across the stairs so the dogs can't go upstairs. 

I have a fear of the house burning down while we're gone and if the dogs were in crates they wouldn't have any chance of getting out. Actually, I wish with all my heart that I could convince hubby we need outdoor kennels to house the dogs in when we're gone. It would solve so many of my fears of leaving them in the house.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

oregon woodsmok said:


> So if you came home and your cats had killed your canary, maybe the cats should be considered dangerous and gotten rid of or PTS because they had killed a family member? Because if the cats are raised with the canary they should respect the canary as a family member and know that it was yours and not theirs to do with as they pleased?


Cats are not dogs.

I wouldn't keep small animals like hamsters, birds, etc. with cats in the house. However, when I was raising baby chicks in the basement, the cats learned to leave them alone... and even my outdoor cat ignores baby chicks. She's gotten attacked by enough mother hens to know it just isn't worth it.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

I agree that this just sounds like an accident/older kitty thing. I am very sorry you lost her but I don't think the dog is vicious. Keep them all spearate when you are gone, always.

I have seen a dog kill and eat a cat. Normally a sweet dog I could go right up to and do nything to, but he was flipping scary in that moment. More wolf than dog. This cat was not damaged... dogs don't usually kill viciously and not leave "evidence".

Crispin, I also have BTDT. I am so so sorry. DH shot him, and I don't know if I will ever get over my sweet yellow guy deciding to kill and eat a puppy. Or that we had to then end him... we had just had a baby and all I could see was that it wasn't a stray black pup, but a bundle of my baby lying there. I had nightmares for months, was terrified of dogs after. I do want a dog again now, but... something like that really rattles you. I stayed in the house and bawled while Dh had to go kill "his" pup. he never knew it was coming but... oh, guilt forevermore, both for the killed puppy nd the broken dog we couldn't let live.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Its amazing the expectations people expect dogs to live up too, then when a dog acts like a dog they get mad. Thankfully most dogs are pretty good at playing the duel role of surrogate human and dog. I think the OP did the right thing and is keeping things very much in perspective.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

JasoninMN said:


> Its amazing the expectations people expect dogs to live up too, then when a dog acts like a dog they get mad. Thankfully most dogs are pretty good at playing the duel role of surrogate human and dog. I think the OP did the right thing and is keeping things very much in perspective.


Totally thumbs up agree 100%


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

Did I miss it? Where was the JR/Doxie in the mix? When I first started reading and saw the JR mix, I was reminded of the warnings of JRT's killing cats they have livd with for years when I brought home a JRT pup (BTW he is now back with his original owner). ...so was rather surprised to see your blaming the corgi. Now, let me say that I did own some very high prey drive collies. I have seen them start running poultry together and once 4 of of the collies (2 which were the very high prey drive) were let out by my son for exercise and started in...they had one duck pulled out of the group and was grabbing it and pulling out feathers...tearing out a chunk in the process. He had forgotten the rule about certain dogs not being allowed free run without me out there and thought no harm....didn't realize what could happen. I was able to call them off and stopped it. Duck lived with some care. Now, I knew these certain dogs were high prey drive because of thier intense behavior around the poultry. Though they were fine with the cats...poultry or rabbits on the move would trigger a response. My point is, I knew who could have an issue with another animal before anything even happened. The other dogs may have given a playful chase and round up, but these were serious. They would whine and stalk the fence. Only one did any of them kill another animal though...and that was a chicken that was fond of one of the other dogs (my best herding boy). The roo would spend the day up by the house or even in the house watching tv with the kids and go down to the kennel each night and would fly into this dogs pen and sleep with him at night. I would find the dog curled up with the roo comfy and warm laying amidst his legs. That went on for months, but we wound up switching dogs around one day without giving it any thought. Unfortunately, the roo apparently was not aware of the switch and flew into a kennel that had a dog with very high prey drive. My boy lost his best freind that night. Each time there was a chase and contact made by a very high prey drive dog there was signs of it as well....there was blood let. 
" They've never shown any aggression towards the cats and usually curl up to sleep with several of them sharing a room. Eat/drink next to them and everything."

This does not sound like a dog that would kill that animal. That is why I find it odd that your blaming the corgi. Herding breeds have the high prey drive or they don't. An adult does not turn into one that does overnight. Pups can become sharper as they go through thier growth and development, but the instinct was there from the beginning and signs were present. As far as the older corgi's behavior...it is picking up on your displeasure/blame and reacting to that. If the JRT/doxie was also present, I would seriously be thinking it was the culprit. They are not herding dogs and instinctively have a desire to kill prey as that is what they were bred to do. Just my thoughts.


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

I vote it was the dogs playing too hard and accidentally killed the cat. We got a new kitten once and it was out in the yard. Our dog LOVED that kitten. He wanted to play with it the way dogs play with other dogs. He got too rough and it was accidentally killed. He also accidentally killed a rabbit. But those are much more fragile than cats. He LOVED animals, especially baby animals and I fully believe the incidences were accidents. 


The two dogs I have now got away and went on a rampage and killed 5 rabbits in sept. Busted them right out of their cages and ate two and tried to bury the other 3. It never even occurred to me to think the dogs were 'dangerous' because they killed a 'family member'. They just acted like dogs. One dog has a very high prey drive. She will catch and kill anything she can in the bush. I know this. She is fine with my cats, always has been, but animals outside are food. THe other dog was an adult when we got her and born and raised on an indian reservation. I REALLY dont think any amount of training would ever convince her that the cat and the rabbits are not food. She just goes nuts when she sees a little animal that looks like dinner. Its the way she was raised.... to fend for herself. 

So my rabbits are tucked away behind a nasty electric fence made of page wire. So even if the fencer is off....the dogs really cant get in. The cat is safe in the house, the dogs are outside. 



Just keep the pets separated just incase and you will be fine. I wouldn't do ANYTHING to my dogs over that incident. Nothing.


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## YodelDogs (May 25, 2007)

I am so very sorry for your loss. Losing a pet is hard enough but to lose one to something that was probably caused by another pet has to be devestating.

I am surprised and disappointed that people actually recommended that the Corgi be rehomed. The incident was not witnessed so no one knows for sure what happened. Why should the Corgi lose it's home, and possibly it's life, because it is suspect? There were multiple dogs that could have been involved. Cats run, dogs chase. It is a natural instinct. Even if a single dog is uninterested in chasing cats, add just one dog and the whole mentality can change. Instead of rehoming dogs, crate them. A dog cannot hurt a cat or get into trouble while in a crate.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

People who have terriers can eventually expect their dog to kill a critter. Doesn't matter if the dog has grown up with it or not. JRTs are guilty of this.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

I dont think any of the dogs should be disposed of, because you dont really even know which dog was involved, started it, joined in, or even what really happened. You can really only assume based on your knowledge of the dogs personality. That being said I have seen my perfect, little tiny well behaved, reliable to commands dog turn into a terror with teeth if another dog dares to take a favorite toy from him on occasion. If I had not seen it I would not believe him as being capable of such behavior. 
I am so sorry for this to have happened to you.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

I KNOW it wasn't the mix (he was on the couch, shaking)- he's the most timid dog i've ever met- if the other dogs start playing, he runs to a human, shaking. If a cat is near a doorway, he won't cross it and eventually will yap to be rescued, shaking. He's scared of loud sounds and well, almost everything. Give him a treat that is too large to be eaten in one bite, he looks up to you with a confused look until you break it for him. We call him our 'speshul' dog- and he is. 
Remember, I don't know for sure what his cross is- that was just speculation on my part. The doxie is pretty much a given, the build of his front half and his coat made me think JRT.

I'm sorry you went through that, Jen. 

The dog isn't going anywhere, other than in another room when we're gone. No worries about the door not shutting completely- this is a 109 year old farmhouse and we're always having to test to make sure that doors actually shut. Some you have to close gently, some hard, some you have to turn the knob a certain way and some you have to hold your head a certain way... you get the picture. I really don't like the idea of crating her for two reasons- one, the fire issue and two, she's older and has never been crated before, so i'm not sure how she'd take to that. So the closed room issue is the one for us right now. 

Thanks again for weighing in, everyone.


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## cjb (May 2, 2006)

On second thought, keep the corgi and get rid of the mix for being a wimp 

Just kidding  Follow your instincts, take precautions and all will be well. Upon hearing more, I'm also wondering if this wasn't a one-off issue with the cat and hopefully won't be repeated.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I get angry all the time around here when Jinx comes hobbling out of the back room where she likes to hang, and gets chased by ALL the dogs. Then, they might get her cornered and they stand over top of her and just look at her, bewildered that they caught her. I can't keep her contained, she is already living in one room by her own choice. I can't keep the dogs contained...when I see it happen I just yell the name of the instigator dog sharply to get his attention and she makes her escape. The others falter when I yell someone's name as well. Yet when the dogs are sleeping or laying still, she walks right over them. It HAS to be that when she takes off or slinks around, she awakens the instinct in them to chase. Birdie Bird has gotten QUITE comfortable around Duke...lands on his back, lands on a chair right in front of him. He ignores her. Then the other day, she flew a little too close to him as he was laying down, and he reached up and snapped at the air right in front of her!!! If he had been a fraction of a second faster, he would have gotten her. The cat, ignores her.

All this to say, I don't think just because it happened once that it will happen again. Chances are poor kitty did something to arouse the instinct in them...and again, are we sure that kitty wasn't already over the Bridge when the dogs stumbled across her? Did one accidentally hurt her with a paw? It just doesn't sound malicious to me.

I am so very sorry for the loss; it stinks no matter what.


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