# Detransition Diary



## crabappleplum (9 mo ago)

the aftermath of my transition | detranstion diary - YouTube 

This is so sad!

Almost all teens get uncomfortable with their bodies when newly released hormones begin flowing. Most of us settle down and become comfortable with who we are. Butchering the sexuality of children like this should be a crime just as the muslim practice of female genital mutilation is a crime in this country.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

wow
I have heard stories on other social media sites too.... brave people to speak up about their own story.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

crabappleplum said:


> Butchering the sexuality of children like this should be a crime just as the muslim practice of female genital mutilation is a crime in this country.


It is a crime and will always be a crime, regardless of what any judge may say.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Many on this site have said people who want to change genders need to have years of counseling by a competent confidant. They don't need to be pushed by doctors who want to make money off their insecurities or misery and confusion. I don't understand why children's advocates are not screaming for counseling before these children undergo genital mutilation. 

The "experts" need to stop being so accomodating and start telling these people to live with who they are until they become adults and have a better view of their own lives.

I am so glad I am not a teenager in these days. I shudder to think of what I would have been pushed toward if this garbage was prevalent when I was growing up.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Danaus29 said:


> …I don't understand why children's advocates are not screaming for counseling before these children undergo genital mutilation…


They’re not trying to stop this madness for the same reason that children are being politicized and sexualized, and the same reason they’re taking ideological liberties within the mandated education system. The Marxists want to adultify children so they can construct a break between the parent and child. They realize that social Revolution normally takes generations, and they want to speed up that process.

By adultifying children, they set the notion that children have freedom of identity beyond the one their parents allow and, therefore, abrogate the parents’ right to control over their children. This break allows someone else to step in their place and shape the child’s identity; namely those same Marxists.

To the Marxists, your children may be your responsibility to feed and clothe, but they will be the ones to raise and shape them.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

This person was 18 when the medical transition began. Does anyone know if this person had counseling before the medical surgeries?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yes, there are monsters with a license to practice medicine.
This is another one who should be in jail.
_"A California doctor who reportedly makes millions performing sex changes told a conference last year no child is too young to consider for “gender affirming” operations and said he has performed them on kids as young as 13."_
‘There Is No Youngest Age At All’: California Doctor Admits To Performing ‘Affirming Surgeries’ On Transgender Children As Young As 13 | The Daily Wire


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

painterswife said:


> This person was 18 when the medical transition began. Does anyone know if this person had counseling before the medical surgeries?


If she was, it was by lunatic counselors. The girl clearly had/has mental/emotional issues that were never properly addressed. Being a 'counselor' does not equate to being intelligent any more than getting elected equates to being a capable president. There are counselors that actually push the trans agenda and there is no doubt those are the ones most Drs. who support transgendering refer their patients to. That poor girl is now more miserable than she was originally and, sadly, at high risk of suicide.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

We don't let children vote, we don't let children drink or smoke, children are required to go to school and they have to have driving instruction before they get a driver's license. But children are allowed to say they want to be a different sex before their brain is fully functional? That is messed up!

Like @poppy, I believe that the person in the video is at a high risk of suicide. Not just this one but dozens of trans children will be at increased risk. But I guess that they are collateral damage for those who are pushing the agenda.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

poppy said:


> If she was, it was by lunatic counselors. The girl clearly had/has mental/emotional issues that were never properly addressed. Being a 'counselor' does not equate to being intelligent any more than getting elected equates to being a capable president. There are counselors that actually push the trans agenda and there is no doubt those are the ones most Drs. who support transgendering refer their patients to. That poor girl is now more miserable than she was originally and, sadly, at high risk of suicide.


There is much more to the story than watching one video. This person did not medically transition until legally able to as an adult. The entire original transition journey was documented for 8 years. Transitioning was making money for this person and doing it as a legal adult making adult decisions. We don't restrict adults from having breast augmentation or reductions, nose jobs, or cosmetic surgery unless they have a certain amount of counseling.

Do you suggest that we make laws about how much counseling someone has before they decide to have any surgery?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Here is the first comment/post from Jalisa Vine's video-
_"The adults and professionals should not have allowed this to happen to you. I’m sorry. This is the medical scandal of our time."_

Maybe counselors should start sharing some of the culpability.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Was this a counselor's fault or the fault of a person who, as an adult, decided to have surgery? It could be both, to could be one or the other. No one here has enough info to know for sure.

There are people who transitioned that are perfectly happy and some that are not. I do hope that everyone who does transition has had comprehensive counseling from a range of of doctors.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

painterswife said:


> There is much more to the story than watching one video. This person did not medically transition until legally able to as an adult. The entire original transition journey was documented for 8 years. Transitioning was making money for this person and doing it as a legal adult making adult decisions. We don't restrict adults from having breast augmentation or reductions, nose jobs, or cosmetic surgery unless they have a certain amount of counseling.


The doctors who did this to this person are no different than the one who turned Michael Jackson into a monster. Yes, Michael Jackson asked for every procedure, but the doctor who enabled him has largely been ostracized for taking financial advantage of a mentally ill person. That’s exactly what the doctors who promise people they can transform a man into a woman or a woman into a man on the operating table are doing. 



painterswife said:


> Do you suggest that we make laws about how much counseling someone has before they decide to have any surgery?


No. An adult should be allowed to wreck themselves in whatever way they choose, as long as they aren’t harming someone else. We absolutely DO need laws against adults who even talk to children about this insanity in any terms other than making it clear that it is a mental illness, and that they should report any adult who tries to talk to them about there being anything wrong with the gender they were born, or anything positive about trying to change it.

Teachers, counselors and medical personnel should lose their jobs and licensing, on the first offense. Parents who do it should lose their children until it can be proven that they’re not going to mentally abuse them anymore.


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## crabappleplum (9 mo ago)

I only know one trans who got the surgeries. He was late 40s, had many years of counseling before getting cut overseas. She was happy and smiley for a few years, then the novelty wore off. Now 10 years later he/she totally regrets the choice and is again in deep depression.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

I didn't realize the person in this video was 18 when their transition began. I think that does make a difference, because this person chose to do this to their own body. 

Allowing or participating in the mutilation of a child's body though ... totally different. Anyone who participates in abusing children by brainwashing, providing puberty blockers, or providing surgeries, to pretend to change a child's gender or mutilate a child's body, should have the same consequences as anyone else who abuses children.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

painterswife said:


> Was this a counselor's fault or the fault of a person who, as an adult, decided to have surgery? It could be both, to could be one or the other. No one here has enough info to know for sure.
> 
> There are people who transitioned that are perfectly happy and some that are not. I do hope that everyone who does transition has had comprehensive counseling from a range of of doctors.


If she saw a good counselor, he/she should have caught the fact that the girl had other issues that should have been addressed before the gender question. Anyone can see that being female was not her main issue. If it were, she would be happy now.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

poppy said:


> If she saw a good counselor, he/she should have caught the fact that the girl had other issues that should have been addressed before the gender question. Anyone can see that being female was not her main issue. If it were, she would be happy now.


I agree. Do you suggest that laws be passed about this with regards to adults.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

painterswife said:


> I agree. Do you suggest that laws be passed about this with regards to adults.


Adults can do whatever they want, but I would hope they talk to a good psychiatrist before proceeding. Encouraging children to get into this should be criminal.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Do you suggest that we make laws about how much counseling someone has before they decide to have any surgery?


I had to jump through hoops to get hip replacement surgery, even though 5 doctors said it was medically necessary.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> I had to jump through hoops to get hip replacement surgery, even though 5 doctors said it was medically necessary.


That is more about insurance than counseling I expect.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

painterswife said:


> That is more about insurance than counseling I expect.


It's an insurance requirement. The hospital was supposed to notify me about the currently optional pre surgery class which should be attended. I'm just glad it's not like the UK where you have to attend physical therapy and meet a certain weight before scheduling years into the future.


There are body changing surgeries which should be preceded by counseling and a waiting period. And yes, I think patients seeking boob jobs and penis implants should have counseling. But we aren't talking about a simple boob job. We are talking about completely changing one's sexual appearance. People who are having other mental issues should get help with loving who they are, not being pushed to forever change what they are. No matter what they are, it will never change how they feel about themselves, deep down inside.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> It's an insurance requirement. The hospital was supposed to notify me about the currently optional pre surgery class which should be attended. I'm just glad it's not like the UK where you have to attend physical therapy and meet a certain weight before scheduling years into the future.
> 
> 
> There are body changing surgeries which should be preceded by counseling and a waiting period. And yes, I think patients seeking boob jobs and penis implants should have counseling. But we aren't talking about a simple boob job. We are talking about completely changing one's sexual appearance. People who are having other mental issues should get help with loving who they are, not being pushed to forever change what they are. No matter what they are, it will never change how they feel about themselves, deep down inside.


What about a mastectomy for health purposes? Do they still need counseling?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Is there any proof that anyone successfully transitions? I would guess the odds are at least 10 to 1, in favor of regretting transition surgery.

I realize that some children are assigned the wrong sex at birth, but that's a different problem. There is no way that doctors know enough to successfully change a man to a woman or vice versa.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

painterswife said:


> What about a mastectomy for health purposes? Do they still need counseling?


Afterwards maybe.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

The transition process is a huge step and I believe that it's both reasonable and prudent to make counselling part of that process so that those who do have the tools they need to live the best life they can. 

.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> What about a mastectomy for health purposes? Do they still need counseling?


It's available and encouraged in Canada. Living with cancer is also life altering.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

MoonRiver said:


> Is there any proof that anyone successfully transitions? I would guess the odds are at least 10 to 1, in favor of regretting transition surgery.
> 
> I realize that some children are assigned the wrong sex at birth, but that's a different problem. There is no way that doctors know enough to successfully change a man to a woman or vice versa.


I'm not sure how you arrived at your numbers but the only person I know who has fully transitioned is quite content with her decision but she transitioned as an adult in Switzerland and at that time, they would not initiate any surgery without conselling. 

She credits counselling for getting her through a lengthy process with realistic expectations and allowing her to live a comfortable and happy life.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

wr said:


> I'm not sure how you arrived at your numbers but the only person I know who has fully transitioned is quite content with her decision but she transitioned as an adult in Switzerland and at that time, they would not initiate any surgery without conselling.
> 
> She credits counselling for getting her through a lengthy process with realistic expectations and allowing her to live a comfortable and happy life.


This was a male who had his genitals removed?


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## mamagoose (Nov 28, 2003)

Danaus29 said:


> We don't let children vote, we don't let children drink or smoke, children are required to go to school and they have to have driving instruction before they get a driver's license. But children are allowed to say they want to be a different sex before their brain is fully functional? That is messed up!
> 
> Like @poppy, I believe that the person in the video is at a high risk of suicide. Not just this one but dozens of trans children will be at increased risk. But I guess that they are collateral damage for those who are pushing the agenda.


NY isn't even allowing adults old enough to throw a birthday party for their own children and be drafted buy canned whipped cream, but go "trans" no problem.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Is there any proof that anyone successfully transitions? I would guess the odds are at least 10 to 1, in favor of regretting transition surgery.
> 
> I realize that some children are assigned the wrong sex at birth, but that's a different problem. There is no way that doctors know enough to successfully change a man to a woman or vice versa.


You are very off. Many more are happy with their transition then are unhappy.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

There are too many "professionals" who cave when asked to sign off on these mutilations. They fear being harassed, cancelled, hounded if they refuse to play along with the mental illness.

I'm letting my license lapse at the end of this month, because I am so tired of fighting against this glorification of and participation in delusion and madness.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness. Period. To say otherwise, to support and enable someone with this mental illness to do permanent physical and emotional damage to themselves, is beyond absurd. It is unconscionable, it is unforgivable, it is a damnable offense.

Rather than attempting to change perfectly healthy physical bodies, why are they not focusing therapy on where the real problem lies: the psychological issue? 

BTW, just an aside: I have not yet come across someone who is "transitioning" to any of the multitude of "genders" we are supposed to pretend exist. It still comes down to Male/Female, just like the woke t-shirts people buy on Amazon.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> You are very off. Many more are happy with their transition then are unhappy.


I seriously doubt that. There are many reasons a male might believe he is really a female and just as many that a female believes she is really a male, but removing sexual organs rarely solves the problem. Who's to say counseling alone isn't as good as counseling and surgery? Have there been any studies comparing these 2 options?

If an adult chooses to transition and I don't pay any part of it, no problem, but parents who decide their 3-year-old boy is really a girl are sick. And so is any psychiatrist who would confirm the child is transgender.

Again, I realize sometimes doctors make a mistake at birth and assign the wrong gender because sex organs may be malformed or small. I can understand it may take corrective surgery in those cases and I am fine with that. 

But when statistics say maybe 1 in 1000 people are transgender to some degree, yet there are 5 kids in a school of 500 that are suddenly transgender, the problem is not the kids, but the teachers and parents.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The most thorough follow-up of sex-reassigned people—extending over 30 years and conducted in Sweden, where the culture is strongly supportive of the transgendered—documents their lifelong mental unrest. *Ten to 15 years after surgical reassignment, the suicide rate of those who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery rose to 20 times that of comparable peers.*​...​Here’s how The Guardian summarized the results of a review of “more than 100 follow-up studies of post-operative transsexuals” by Birmingham University’s Aggressive Research Intelligence Facility:


> [The Aggressive Research Intelligence Facility], which conducts reviews of health care treatments for the [National Health Service], concludes that *none of the studies provides conclusive evidence that gender reassignment is beneficial for patients.* It found that most research was poorly designed, which skewed the results in favor of physically changing sex. There was* no evaluation of whether other treatments, such as long-term counseling, might help transsexuals, or whether their gender confusion might lessen over time.*


heritage​


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

A male can have many feminine traits, but that just makes him a male with feminine traits. Cutting off his sex organs makes him a male with feminine traits who doesn't have his male sex organs anymore. He can choose to dress like a woman and act and talk like a woman, but he is still a genetic male.

I am not unsympathetic. I'm sure it is an extremely stressful life they lead, but we need to learn to be accepting of who they are and they need to learn the same.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Pony said:


> Gender dysphoria is a mental illness. Period. To say otherwise, to support and enable someone with this mental illness to do permanent physical and emotional damage to themselves, is beyond absurd. It is unconscionable, it is unforgivable, it is a damnable offense.


What field were you licensed?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

painterswife said:


> What about a mastectomy for health purposes? Do they still need counseling?


A mastectomy to avoid breast cancer is a medical response to a real, physiological problem. An addadictomy is a fashion-based response to a socially instigated mental problem. You’re comparing apples and barnacles.

Insurance-covered counseling should be made available to a woman opting for a mastectomy, both before and after, should she so choose, and I’m not saying that counseling should be required of an adult wanting to mutilate their genitals.

BUT, what I am saying is that an adult who mutilates their genitals in an attempt to “change their gender”; regardless whether they’ve had prior counseling or not, should be barred from ever being in a position of power over other adults, or even being in the unsupervised _presence_ of a child.

…I’m not sure yet how I feel about the integrity of their right to be armed. I’ll think on that and get back to you.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

GTX63 said:


> What field were you licensed?


Independent psychotherapy clinician/ LCSW.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

MoonRiver said:


> A male can have many feminine traits, but that just makes him a male with feminine traits. Cutting off his sex organs makes him a male with feminine traits who doesn't have his male sex organs anymore. He can choose to dress like a woman and act and talk like a woman, but he is still a genetic male.
> 
> I am not unsympathetic. I'm sure it is an extremely stressful life they lead, but we need to learn to be accepting of who they are and they need to learn the same.


Who are they, exactly?

Are you saying that we have to accept their mental instability as if there is nothing wrong with them, that we have to play along?


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> You are very off. Many more are happy with their transition then are unhappy.


How could anyone possibly know that? I would say the opposite is far more likely to be true, but IDK for sure either. Maybe a poll could be taken for a large number of people who have taken drugs and mutilated their bodies in order to pretend they were born into bodies that were a gender other than their true gender, after enough time for the fake of each mutilated body to wear off, so that each could speak for themselves?


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

Pony said:


> Who are they, exactly?
> 
> Are you saying that we have to accept their mental instability as if there is nothing wrong with them, that we have to play along?


I think what was meant is that trans people need to accept what they really are and so do others -- so a male who pretends to be female is still a male so he and others should accept that, and a female who pretends to be male is still a female so she and others should accept that?

I wouldn't play along with such fantasies (that a male pretending to be a female really is a female, or that a female pretending to be a male really is a male, or that any human is not male or female -- except in the rare case that someone really is living in the body of a hermaphrodite), and I wouldn't expect anyone else to play along with such fantasies either.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

MoonRiver said:


> This was a male who had his genitals removed?


Thats correct correct. I would think it was over 30 years ago.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

CC Pereira said:


> I think what was meant is that trans people need to accept what they really are and so do others -- so a male who pretends to be female is still a male so he and others should accept that, and a female who pretends to be male is still a female so she and others should accept that?
> 
> I wouldn't play along with such fantasies (that a male pretending to be a female really is a female, or that a female pretending to be a male really is a male, or that any human is not male or female -- except in the rare case that someone really is living in the body of a hermaphrodite), and I wouldn't expect anyone else to play along with such fantasies either.


Are you planning on asking to see their genitals? You can should all you want but unless someone tells you they have reassigned, it’s really none of your business.

It’s people like yourself, full of righteous indignation that spend time trying to out my rather masculine but straight friend. 

Is it truly worth hating on people you’ve never met and who have done you no harm?


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Posted 9/6/22 11:12 PM CDST



crabappleplum said:


> I only know one trans who got the surgeries. He was late 40s, had many years of counseling before getting cut overseas. She was happy and smiley for a few years, then the novelty wore off. Now 10 years later he/she totally regrets the choice and is again in deep depression.


I knew a couple 40 or so years ago that were married 26 yars with two daughters in my age range when the husband decided he liked men and they divorced.

As a gay guy , he found he liked the feminine role so went out of country for a sex change because he and his shrink believed he liked men from the female perspective.

As a sex change woman the former husband didn't find the happiness he was looking for but reconnected with his/hers ex wife and with birth certificate, marriage license and divorce decree showing him/her as a male , they remarried each other in a lesbian relationship.

If you think you missed a train transfer in Cuckamonga following this gender bender trip, imagine hearing the details from one of the daughters you happen to be dating.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

painterswife said:


> What about a mastectomy for health purposes? Do they still need counseling?


When breast cancer has been detected any delay in treatment can result in that cancer spreading. But counseling should be available afterwards. For those trying to prevent breast cancer counseling should be available. Even a medically necessary hysterectomy should be followed by at least a couple sessions of counseling. Losing part of the anatomy due to disease is very stressful to some people.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Pony said:


> Who are they, exactly?
> 
> Are you saying that we have to accept their mental instability as if there is nothing wrong with them, that we have to play along?


For the vast majority, no. A normal distribution curve for males tells us that at one end we have a super male and at the other, we have a feminine male. They are all males but have different levels of sex hormones, different personality traits, different interests, different body types, etc.

We still don't know exactly why someone is homosexual, but we have gone from believing it was a mental disorder to no longer thinking so in many cases. So what I am saying is I believe there is the possibility that a very tiny percent of people "could" have actual gender dysphoria. I don't think we know enough to know for sure either way. Just because we haven't yet identified a genetic cause doesn't mean there isn't one.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)




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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

To see what makes this a powerful perspective, consider how it illuminates two trends of contemporary global liberalism. After rejecting the most influential forms of collective identity and defeating its collectivist ideological rivals, communism and fascism, liberalism discovers “two more forms of collective identity”: gender and humanity itself. 

We are currently in the phase of “gender politics, the transformation of the category of gender into something ‘optional’ and dependent on individual choice.” 

Transgenderism, in other words, is the logical application of the principle of individualism or nominalism to the latest form of collective identity standing in the way of progress. After gender politics, Dugin warns, transhumanism will come more fully to the fore, since “the human is also a collective identity, which means that it must be overcome, abolished, destroyed.” 

Just as the “individual” can choose to be “religious or atheist,” “male or female,” soon the choice will extend to “human or not.” 








The Great Awakening vs the Great Reset ━ The European Conservative


A great deal has been said recently about Alexander Dugin’s thought. Michael Millerman, the foremost English language interpreter of the “most dangerous philosopher in the world,” reviews his 2021 book.




europeanconservative.com


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

MoonRiver said:


> I seriously doubt that. There are many reasons a male might believe he is really a female and just as many that a female believes she is really a male, but removing sexual organs rarely solves the problem. Who's to say counseling alone isn't as good as counseling and surgery? Have there been any studies comparing these 2 options?
> 
> If an adult chooses to transition and I don't pay any part of it, no problem, but parents who decide their 3-year-old boy is really a girl are sick. And so is any psychiatrist who would confirm the child is transgender.
> 
> ...


The problem is that if people are not getting counselling, they seem to believe that reassignment that all life's problems vanish after completion. 

The reality is that with counselling, they come to realize that they are still biologically male or female with new packaging and not all of live's problems vanish after assignment. 

Reassignment is something that should make someone feel more comfortable/content in their own skin but it's not going to stop everyday, real life issues. They will still deal with relationship issues, financial issues, health issues, occupation/professional issues and everything else life sends our way and that's not something that is easy to understand when someone is fixated on that one seemingly all important change. If you go into the final surgery unemployed, you're going to wake up in recovery unemployed.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

In other words, happiness isn't a place or thing.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Would most be happy if with medical needs operations the doctor counseling would suffice and with cosmetic operations, extra counseling levels would be set dependent on the level of surgery?

So for instance, someone getting a nose job for breathing would not need outside counseling but someone getting a nose job for looks would need some level of counseling. The same could go for hormones. For someone getting hormones for medical reasons, the regular doctor's advice would suffice. Someone getting hormones in preparation for transition would need a higher level of outside counseling.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Would most be happy if with medical needs operations the doctor counseling would suffice and with cosmetic operations, extra counseling levels would be set dependent on the level of surgery?
> 
> So for instance, someone getting a nose job for breathing would not need outside counseling but someone getting a nose job for looks would need some level of counseling. The same could go for hormones. For someone getting hormones for medical reasons, the regular doctor's advice would suffice. Someone getting hormones in preparation for transition would need a higher level of outside counseling.


Yep, that sounds about right.

Do you think a tall person who thinks they are short or a white person who thinks they are black has no problem with reality? Why is it that my doctor must believe me when I say I am a different sex but doesn't play along when I claim to be a different age?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

There is no equivalent between body surgery for appearances and medically necessary body altering surgery. People need to know the permanent outcome of what they are doing to their body just to prevent "buyer's remorse".


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> Yep, that sounds about right.
> 
> Do you think a tall person who thinks they are short or a white person who thinks they are black has no problem with reality? Why is it that my doctor must believe me when I say I am a different sex but doesn't play along when I claim to be a different age?


 Please note. I have always been in favor of counseling for transitions. I am asking these questions to see where others are on the subject.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

wr said:


> Are you planning on asking to see their genitals? You can should all you want but unless someone tells you they have reassigned, it’s really none of your business.
> 
> It’s people like yourself, full of righteous indignation that spend time trying to out my rather masculine but straight friend.
> 
> Is it truly worth hating on people you’ve never met and who have done you no harm?


No, I wouldn't ask anyone to prove they are the gender they claim to be. If I don't know a person's gender because it is not apparent, and they don't tell me what their gender is, I have no choice but to guess, in order to speak with or about and interact with him or her appropriately. If he / she tells me his / her gender, I have no choice but to go along with their claim, whether I believe him / her or not, because no one is required to prove their gender ... except in a small handful of cases, such as if he / she wants to compete in sports or other activities that are for one gender or the other. If someone claims to be male, I will treat that person as a male. If someone claims to be female, I will treat that person as a female. If I find out later that someone who claimed to be a male was actually a female, I will treat her as a female. If I find out later that someone who claimed to be female is actually a male, I will treat him as a male.

Righteous indignation? How so? If your friend appears to be a male, it is no one else's fault if they assume she is a he. If she informs others that she is a female (which I think would be awkward and embarrassing, but maybe necessary to stop others from treating her as a male), then I think others should treat her as a female.

I don't hate anyone. I believe that everyone should be treated equally, with the same dignity and respect as anyone else, regardless of their gender, race, religion, or other differences. Why assume I hate anyone?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"Appears to be male"

Right there that is the problem. It should not matter what your gender is unless you are interested in a physical relationship with someone. If we as a society were not so stuck on gender and what it should be or not be, then maybe people would not be so fast to think they need to change what they look like to meet others' norms.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> "Appears to be male"
> 
> Right there that is the problem. It should not matter what your gender is unless you are interested in a physical relationship with someone. If we as a society were not so stuck on gender and what it should be or not be, then maybe people would not be so fast to think they need to change what they look like to meet others' norms.


That kind of wiring cannot be undone. To think so is naive.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> That kind of wiring cannot be undone. To think so is naive.


I don't expect it to be undone. I hope that it changes going forward. How I thought of gender when I was young is much different than I think of it now. I don't berate those that don't fit gender norms. I don't believe that boys can't wear pink. I don't believe that men can't be the homemaker. I know that women can do any job men do. I don't care if a man has long hair. 

Have your gender views changed over your lifetime? The majority of today's youth are definitely not as rigid in their views as they were in my youth.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> "Appears to be male"
> 
> Right there that is the problem. It should not matter what your gender is unless you are interested in a physical relationship with someone. If we as a society were not so stuck on gender and what it should be or not be, then maybe people would not be so fast to think they need to change what they look like to meet others' norms.


Sometimes we need to know what a person's gender is, in order to speak with or about and interact with him / her appropriately, and to avoid being rude. For example, If I am speaking about you to someone else, should I refer to you as 'her' or 'he' (such as, 'he / she said whatever and I said whatever'; I don't expect you to answer that, it's just an example). Or, if I have a daughter who has to get undressed and take a shower in a locker room at school, I don't want boys pretending to be girls so they can be in the locker room to watch her and the other girls taking showers. If a female wants to be treated like a female, then she should either appear to be a female, or expect to be treated as a male and to have to correct others when they treat her as a male. If a male wants to be treated like a male, then he should either appear to be a male, or expect to be treated as a female and have to correct others when they treat him as a female.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CC Pereira said:


> Sometimes we need to know what a person's gender is, in order to speak with or about and interact with him / her appropriately, and to avoid being rude. For example, If I am speaking about you to someone else, should I refer to you as 'her' or 'he' (such as, 'he / she said whatever and I said whatever'; I don't expect you to answer that, it's just an example). Or, if I have a daughter who has to get undressed and take a shower in a locker room at school, I don't want boys pretending to be girls so they can be in the locker room to watch her and the other girls taking showers. If a female wants to be treated like a female, then she should either appear to be a female, or expect to be treated as a male and to have to correct others when they treat her as a male. If a male wants to be treated like a male, then he should either appear to be a male, or expect to be treated as a female and have to correct others when they treat him as a female.


How about just using the person's name instead of gender. There are languages with no gender terms. Maybe our problem is that we have them.

How will you know if it is a boy or girl from looks in the changing room? Will you be asking to see genitals before they enter? I expect that is more of a problem. Maybe children should have stall with doors to change and shower in instead of open rooms. I did not like open changing rooms when I was in school. You don't know who is into the same sex and will be ogling your child.

Why should you treat a female or male differently in everyday life in the first place? Treat them as a person not as their gender unless you are in a physical relationship with them.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Would most be happy if with medical needs operations the doctor counseling would suffice and with cosmetic operations, extra counseling levels would be set dependent on the level of surgery?
> 
> So for instance, someone getting a nose job for breathing would not need outside counseling but someone getting a nose job for looks would need some level of counseling. The same could go for hormones. For someone getting hormones for medical reasons, the regular doctor's advice would suffice. Someone getting hormones in preparation for transition would need a higher level of outside counseling.


No matter how hard one tries, there is no way a nose job can be compared to sex change surgery. Are you suggesting that sex change surgery is for vanity purposes?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> No matter how hard one tries, there is no way a nose job can be compared to sex change surgery. Are you suggesting that sex change surgery is for vanity purposes?


They are both done to make someone look physically as they want themselves to be seen by others. Sometimes that is to be less noticed.

That is not always vanity. Vanity is about beauty in the eyes of your beholder.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

GTX63 said:


> In other words, happiness isn't a place or thing.


Exactly, which is pretty much the same for most plastic surgery. If it is something that someone finds important, it is likely to make them feel better or more confident but they quite often find that it seldom changes how the world sees them or changes other critical aspects of their life. 

I believe my friend is a key example how gender reassignment can allow someone to lead a content life but she also had family support, did not make her life a walking transgender billboard so didn't subject herself to outside scrutiny and she is firmly convinced that her gender identity is nobody else's business and defines herself without hyphens.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> How about just using the person's name instead of gender. There are languages with no gender terms. Maybe our problem is that we have them.
> 
> How will you know if it is a boy or girl from looks in the changing room? Will you be asking to see genitals before they enter? I expect that is more of a problem. Maybe children should have stall with doors to change and shower in instead of open rooms. I did not like open changing rooms when I was in school. You don't know who is into the same sex and will be ogling your child.
> 
> Why should you treat a female or male differently in everyday life in the first place? Treat them as a person not as their gender unless you are in a physical relationship with them.


When it comes to animals, no one argues that a lion and a lioness are the same. The same with male and female dogs, or cats, or birds. Why is it that you think there are no differences between a man and a woman other than sexual organs?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

MoonRiver said:


> No matter how hard one tries, there is no way a nose job can be compared to sex change surgery. Are you suggesting that sex change surgery is for vanity purposes?


I'm not certain that people who get cosmetic surgery view it as vanity either. It's not my thing but people I know who have had cosmetic surgery have done it to feel more comfortable or confident.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> When it comes to animals, no one argues that a lion and a lioness are the same. The same with male and female dogs, or cats, or birds. Why is it that you think there are no differences between a man and a woman other than sexual organs?


Why don't you tell me what you think those differences are?


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> How about just using the person's name instead of gender. There are languages with no gender terms. Maybe our problem is that we have them.
> 
> How will you know if it is a boy or girl from looks in the changing room? Will you be asking to see genitals before they enter? I expect that is more of a problem. Maybe children should have stall with doors to change and shower in instead of open rooms. I did not like open changing rooms when I was in school. You don't know who is into the same sex and will be ogling your child.
> 
> Why should you treat a female or male differently in everyday life in the first place? Treat them as a person not as their gender unless you are in a physical relationship with them.


I would absolutely prefer to use a person's name if I know it, but sometimes 'pronouns' (he / she) are necessary (such as for health care providers to know their patient's gender, birth certificates, activities that are for one gender or the other, referring to someone else as he / she when not talking to them directly, etc.). The English language does have gender terms and has for at least as long as I have used the language. I didn't create the language, I (and many others around the world) just use it to communicate with others.

Teachers typically know the gender of their students before any of them enter a locker room (usually from birth certificates during registration, or by other means), without a genital check, so no. I won't be checking anyone's genitals. I agree that individual stalls for changing and showering would be far better than open rooms. You also did pose a good point, that any child could be gawking at mine getting undressed or showering in a school locker room, regardless of gender, due to gender or sexuality confusion. What comes to mind though, is the possibility that a boy would pretend to be a girl, in order to go into a girl's bathroom, to rape a girl ... which has happened, not that long ago. If the boy wasn't allowed to go into a girl's bathroom by pretending to be a girl, or if individual bathrooms were provided for only one person at a time (regardless of gender), incidents such as that could be prevented.

Generally, I don't think males and females should be treated differently, but males and females are different, and that is a fact. For example, males have XY chromosomes, can impregnate females, do not menstruate, do not get pregnant, do not give birth, do not breast feed, usually have more male hormones, and are usually physically stronger than females. Females have XX chromosomes, can get pregnant, do menstruate (at some point during and / or after puberty), can get pregnant, can give birth, can breast feed, usually have more female hormones, and usually have more endurance than males. Sometimes, males and females should be treated differently, because of their gender, but generally not.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

wr said:


> Exactly, which is pretty much the same for most plastic surgery. If it is something that someone finds important, it is likely to make them feel better or more confident but they quite often find that it seldom changes how the world sees them or changes other critical aspects of their life.
> 
> I believe my friend is a key example how gender reassignment can allow someone to lead a content life but she also had family support, did not make her life a walking transgender billboard so didn't subject herself to outside scrutiny and she is firmly convinced that her gender identity is nobody else's business and defines herself without hyphens.


Is your transgender friend mentioned here the same friend you mentioned earlier, who you said is a female but looks male? Or are these friends two totally separate people?


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> Why don't you tell me what you think those differences are?


For one, male animals don't impregnate male animals, and female animals don't impregnate female animals.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CC Pereira said:


> I would absolutely prefer to use a person's name if I know it, but sometimes 'pronouns' (he / she) are necessary (such as for health care providers to know their patient's gender, birth certificates, activities that are for one gender or the other, referring to someone else as he / she when not talking to them directly, etc.). The English language does have gender terms and has for at least as long as I have used the language. I didn't create the language, I (and many others around the world) just use it to communicate with others.
> 
> Teachers typically know the gender of their students before any of them enter a locker room (usually from birth certificates during registration, or by other means), without a genital check, so no. I won't be checking anyone's genitals. I agree that individual stalls for changing and showering would be far better than open rooms. You also did pose a good point, that any child could be gawking at mine getting undressed or showering in a school locker room, regardless of gender, due to gender or sexuality confusion.
> 
> Generally, I don't think males and females should be treated differently, but males and females are different, and that is a fact. For example, males have XY chromosomes, can impregnate females, do not menstruate, do not get pregnant, do not give birth, do not breast feed, usually have more male hormones, and are usually physically stronger than females. Females have XX chromosomes, can get pregnant, do menstruate (at some point during and / or after puberty), can get pregnant, can give birth, can breast feed, usually have more female hormones, and usually have more endurance than males. Sometimes, males and females should be treated differently, because of their gender, but generally not.


Okay I agree that medical staff needs to know someone's gender but they don't need to know that by looking at them. Teachers don't need to know someone s gender by looking at them.

Men can breastfeed if they have the right hormones in their bodies. Male and female strength is dependent on their genetic makeup and hormone levels while growing. There are plenty of females stronger than plenty of males. Yes, their sex can determine whether they menstruate or ejaculate or can get pregnant or not but then again many females can't do what their chromosomal sex indicates they should be able to do like get pregnant.

If we start treating people as individuals in all areas of life instead of a sex then the entire world will be better off. You don't need to know what is between their legs to do that.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CC Pereira said:


> For one, male animals don't impregnate male animals, and female animals don't impregnate female animals.


Not all males can impregnate females and not all females can get pregnant. And some people do have both sexual organs or none at all.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> Okay I agree that medical staff needs to know someone's gender but they don't need to know that by looking at them. Teachers don't need to know someone s gender by looking at them.
> 
> Men can breastfeed if they have the right hormones in their bodies. Male and female strength is dependent on their genetic makeup and hormone levels while growing. There are plenty of females stronger than plenty of males. Yes, their sex can determine whether they menstruate or ejaculate or can get pregnant or not but then again many females can't do what their chromosomal sex indicates they should be able to do like get pregnant.
> 
> If we start treating people as individuals in all areas of life instead of a sex then the entire world will be better off. You don't need to know what is between their legs to do that.


Teachers may need to know the gender of their students (to only allow girls in girl bathrooms, only allow boys in boy bathrooms, use he / she pronouns when necessary, prevent boys from raping girls, etc.).

Men cannot breast feed, but most women can. If a man and woman of the same age and weight use the same methods to build muscle, the man is more likely to build more muscle and faster (partly due to him having more male hormones than the woman). OTOH, in the same scenario, a woman is more likely to have more endurance than the male (partly due to her having more female hormones). If a woman cannot get pregnant, cannot breast feed, or has a mastectomy, she is still just as much of a woman as any other woman. If someone is born a female, she is a female. If someone is born a male, he is a male. It really is that simple.

Again, generally I agree that all people should be treated equally, regardless of their gender ... but sometimes, different treatment for males and females is necessary, and I've already given some examples as to why.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> Not all males can impregnate females and not all females can get pregnant. And some people do have both sexual organs or none at all.


People take time to develop their bodies until they are able to impregnate or be impregnated. People also cannot reproduce after a certain age. It is true that sometimes a male cannot impregnate a female, and sometimes a female cannot get pregnant or breast feed, but that is uncommon, and nothing changes the fact that a male is still a male, and a female is still a female. Although possible, it is rare and abnormal for anyone to have both or no sexual organs.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Pronouns do not prevent people from getting raped. You can get raped by the same sex.

Men can lactate and therefore can breastfeed. 

Certain sexes do have a genetic predisposition to more strength and endurance but that is more genetics than sex and has more to do with hormone levels than sex at birth.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Why don't you tell me what you think those differences are?


Why are more men than women in prison for committing violent crimes?
Why do more women than men become nurses?
Why are men better at math?
Why are men better athletes?
Why are women more compassionate?
Why do teenage girls spend so much time on social media as compared to boys?
Why do young girls tend to develop eating disorders or engage in cutting more than young boys?
Why do boys tend to engage in fights more than girls?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Why are more men than women in prison for committing violent crimes?
> Why do more women than men become nurses?
> Why are men better at math?
> Why are men better athletes?
> ...


Maybe all those things are because of how we treat and raise the sexes when young.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> Pronouns do not prevent people from getting raped. You can get raped by the same sex.
> 
> Men can lactate and therefore can breastfeed.
> 
> Certain sexes do have a genetic predisposition to more strength and endurance but that is more genetics than sex and has more to do with hormone levels than sex at birth.


Knowing a boy is a boy and preventing a boy from going into a girl's bathroom or locker room can prevent that boy from raping a girl. A female cannot rape anyone (unless she uses an object that is not a body part), but males can rape females or males.

Men cannot lactate, unless they are taking enough female hormones or pharmaceutical drugs to force such an abnormal and unnatural state ... or if they have a health problem that causes such as abnormal and unnatural state ... and even then, men cannot (nor should they even try to) breast feed ... which would be child abuse anyway.

There are only two genders, and sexuality is another, separate story.

Gender and hormones, as well as genetics, do affect strength and endurance.

Someone who is born into the body of a female, is a female. Someone who is born into the body of a male, is a male. No amount of drugs, additional hormones, genital mutilation, or identifying as anything else, or pretending, will ever change that.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Girls can rape girls. Boys can rape boys. Knowing someone's gender does not prevent rape.

Men can lactate. You should do some research.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> Girls can rape girls. Boys can rape boys. Knowing someone's gender does not prevent rape.


If school staff knows the gender of their students, they can prevent boys from going into girl's bathroom and raping girls. Knowing the gender of students likely won't prevent boys from raping boys though. How could girls rape girls? Do girls have a secret body part that only you know about?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CC Pereira said:


> If school staff knows the gender of their students, they can prevent boys from going into girl's bathroom and raping girls. Knowing the gender of students likely won't prevent boys from raping boys though. How could girls rape girls? Do they use a secret body part?


Rape does not need a penis. Teachers don't stand watch at the bathrooms all day waiting. I saw many boys in the girl's bathroom and just as many girl's in the boys bathroom. There are also closets and empty rooms.

Knowing someone's gender does not prevent rape.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

The biggest issue I have here is that susceptible people are being given surgeries in which perfectly functioning, healthy body parts are being removed, or worse yet, replaced by (badly) constructed body parts (borrowing tissue from other perfectly healthy parts of the body) that will likely never function as intended (best case scenario) or will cause a lifetime of pain and repetitive "correctional" surgeries and leave the person with parts that do not function at all (worse case scenario), causing things like repeated infections, incontinence, all sorts of terrible, life long issues. 

Watch videos by people who have had "bottom surgeries" and the number of horror stories is just terrifying, even if the person is "happy" to have had the surgery. I have yet to see one where it went well. Most people we've watched who are open about their process are still having (surgery-related) issues even years down the road. And then remember, this is not reversible. Sometimes it's not even correctable. Rest of your life, forever and ever, amen type stuff. 

Expecting a LOT of therapy (from a non-industry connected therapist) beforehand should be the norm. It's crazy that it seems easier for people to get these types of surgeries than for (example) a young woman to get an "elective" hysterectomy because she has fibroids or endometriosis. I've known women who have been put off surgery for YEARS by doctors because they might change their minds later, even as they're spending their lives in considerable pain while the doctors wait for their biological clocks to run out. But definitely, anyone who wants to have a fake genital area because they don't feel right about the ones they have should have their healthy parts removed and some Frankenstein's monster parts sewn on.

I don't get it.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> Rape does not need a penis. Teachers don't stand watch at the bathrooms all day waiting. I saw many boys in the girl's bathroom and just as many girl's in the boys bathroom. There are also closets and empty rooms.
> 
> Knowing someone's gender does not prevent rape.


Rape is the forcing of someone to have sexual intercourse with the rapist. Men and women can have sex with each other, and men can have sex with other men, but objects would be necessary for women to have sex with women. It would therefore be possible for men to rape women or men, but impossible for women to rape women (without an object) ... and I would think it would be possible but very difficult for women to rape men.

Knowing someone's gender can prevent rape, especially in schools.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CC Pereira said:


> Rape is the forcing of someone to have sexual intercourse with the rapist. Men and women can have sex with each other, and men can have sex with other men, but objects would be necessary for women to have sex with women. It would therefore be possible for men to rape women or men, but impossible for women to rape women ... and I would think it would be possible but very difficult for women to rape men.
> 
> Knowing someone's gender can prevent rape, especially in schools.


Rape is the penetration of another's body against their will. No matter the orifice. Fingers and hands are other objects as well. Men can be easily raped as well.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> Rape is the penetration of another's body against their will. No matter the orifice. Fingers and hands are other objects as well. Men can be easily raped as well.


I think you need to do some research into the definition of male, female, sexual intercourse, and rape, before we continue this discussion.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CC Pereira said:


> I think you need to do some research into the definition of male, female, sexual intercourse, and rape, before we continue this discussion.


Rape is not sexual intercourse. It is forcible penetration and is about power, not sex.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

CC Pereira said:


> I think you need to do some research into the definition of male, female, sexual intercourse, and rape, before we continue this discussion.


From the DOJ:

“The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with* any body part or object, or oral penetration* by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

__





Loading…






www.journalgazette.net





"_Rosemarie Pinkston_ of Fort Wayne is _accused of raping_ another woman and pointing a handgun at her. "


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did read this story. It seems to be an assault, but there is no mention of penetration of any body part or object into any orifice of the victim ... so the rape part doesn't seem to fit the crime.

I do admit though, that my own understanding of the definition of rape, may not have been as thorough as the one offered by homesteadforty, which does expand possibilities that I hadn't really considered ... and for that I apologize.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

CC Pereira said:


> I think you need to do some research into the definition of male, female, sexual intercourse, and rape, before we continue this discussion.











Definition of rape | Dictionary.com


Rape definition, unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the person subjected to such penetration. See more.




www.dictionary.com





Forceful penetration is part or one of the definitions. Some lawyers try to change rape to sexual assault which is a lesser crime.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Maybe all those things are because of how we treat and raise the sexes when young.


None of them are.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> None of them are.


I disagree.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> I disagree.


And you would be wrong. I specifically chose things I knew to be true. Do some research.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> And you would be wrong. I specifically chose things I knew to be true. Do some research.


Testing or numbers on all those things happens after they have been raised under certain gender bias conditions so those results can't be proven to be free from bias. So no I don't need to do more research.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Testing or numbers on all those things happens after they have been raised under certain gender bias conditions so those results can't be proven to be free from bias. So no I don't need to do more research.


They happen in every culture.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> They happen in every culture.


Show me just one culture they happen in that is free from gender bias.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

MoonRiver said:


> And you would be wrong. I specifically chose things I knew to be true. Do some research.


How does that prove or disprove anything relating to gender reassignment or are we just heading down a rabbit hole?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

wr said:


> How does that prove or disprove anything relating to gender reassignment or are we just heading down a rabbit hole?


It is related to gender dysphoria. Let me use a made-up example.

Let's say humans have 10 traits, and of those traits, men tend to be stronger in 4 of them than women are, women tend to be stronger in 4 of them than men are, and in 2 traits there isn't any significant difference.

If a woman is high in some masculine traits and low in some feminine traits, especially as a teenager, that could be quite confusing. Does it mean she is really a man trapped inside a woman's body? No.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

MoonRiver said:


> It is related to gender dysphoria. Let me use a made-up example.
> 
> Let's say humans have 10 traits, and of those traits, men tend to be stronger in 4 of them than women are, women tend to be stronger in 4 of them than men are, and in 2 traits there isn't any significant difference.
> 
> If a woman is high in some masculine traits and low in some feminine traits, especially as a teenager, that could be quite confusing. Does it mean she is really a man trapped inside a woman's body? No.


Does this mean Serena Williams needs to be sent for reassignment because she's a bit too masculine?

My friend doesn't seem to be a man trapped in a woman's body and her only problem stems from helpful people who seem to feel she's too masculine and waste a whole bunch of energy trying to out her. 

My other friend is quite content and comfortable decades after reassignment and feels it's nobody's business what she did to get where she is. She's broken no laws and harmed nobody. 

The question I have is why you want to waste so much energy trying to dictate how someone else lives their life?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

wr said:


> Does this mean Serena Williams needs to be sent for reassignment because she's a bit too masculine?
> 
> My friend doesn't seem to be a man trapped in a woman's body and her only problem stems from helpful people who seem to feel she's too masculine and waste a whole bunch of energy trying to out her.
> 
> ...


I have no dog in this fight. I thought the idea of a forum was to have a discussion. Should I not post since you know 1 person who successfully transitioned 40 years ago? 

Whose life is it you think I am dictating? Nothing I posted about transgender or gender dysphoria was specific to any person. I even posted a video of a person who has successfully transitioned, but without having her sexual organs removed or restructured. She appears to be a well-adjusted person who made the right decision for herself.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

MoonRiver said:


> I have no dog in this fight. I thought the idea of a forum was to have a discussion. Should I not post since you know 1 person who successfully transitioned 40 years ago?
> 
> Whose life is it you think I am dictating? Nothing I posted about transgender or gender dysphoria was specific to any person. I even posted a video of a person who has successfully transitioned, but without having her sexual organs removed or restructured. She appears to be a well-adjusted person who made the right decision for herself.
> 
> I don't understand what point you are trying to make.


I never indicated you couldn’t start a thread and I was simply curious as to what point you’re trying to make.
I’m happy you found video evidence that someone is comfortable without surgery and that’s an option for some but there is no one size fits all solution.


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## tripletmom (Feb 4, 2005)

My issue with this issue...why don't transgendered folks simply live their best life as the gender they imagine themselves to be? Why do they yell and scream and advertise their transgenderness? Because they are looking for attention, that's why. Just live your life, as whatever you want and no one would be the wiser and everyone would be happy. How hard is that?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

tripletmom said:


> My issue with this issue...why don't transgendered folks simply live their best life as the gender they imagine themselves to be? Why do they yell and scream and advertise their transgenderness? Because they are looking for attention, that's why. Just live your life, as whatever you want and no one would be the wiser and everyone would be happy. How hard is that?


They are living their life as they want to. If they want to advertise then what is your problem with it. Others advertise their lives.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

It's not the advertising that gets to me as much as the "I'm different and I deserve attention" attitude. Does every beach bag in the store need to have a gay pride statement on it? Does Walmart really need a gay pride clothing section? We don't have hetero or celibate sections. We don't have a section for kids too young to care about sex. We don't need a rainbow section.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Danaus29 said:


> It's not the advertising that gets to me as much as the "I'm different and I deserve attention" attitude. Does every beach bag in the store need to have a gay pride statement on it? Does Walmart really need a gay pride clothing section? We don't have hetero or celibate sections. We don't have a section for kids too young to care about sex. We don't need a rainbow section.


I agree but that seems to be a retailer issue and they seem to select something to be trendy. I remember when Walmart had an entire section devoted to Duck Dynasty and following that was Son's of Anarchy, glorifying gangs. 

I noticed after Lisa Laflamme was fired with media indicating she was chastized for not dying her hair during the pandemic, a large number of brands jumped on the 'embrace the gray' campaign. Wendy's went so far as to briefly change their logo to a gray haired girl in pigtails, companies came out in support of mature women in the workforce, etc and her network executives are literally being threatened. 

I really don't think the average gay person really cares if Walmart sells rainbow t-shirts or umbrellas and quite factually, things like that make it a lot harder for those who just want to live their lives because people come to believe they are all militant, agressive and desire attention. 

I don't believe that transgender people are much different. They simply want to do what they feel is best for them and move on living the best life they can. If my straight but somewhat masculine looking friend's life is any indication of what transgender people experience, they have my sympathy. 

Nobody, straight, gay or trans should have people dogging them, trying to 'out' them, calling them ugly to their face, telling them they will burn in hell, try to get their employers to fire them for the crime of 'might be trans' or all the other ugliness she deals with because the world has decided that trans people are awful people and she must be the one.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

Trans people are not the only people who get treated unfairly. Many people get treated unfairly, with disregard, and disrespect, for a lot of different excuses (usually due to the differences between them and others). I think if someone wants to be treated like everyone else, they are better off blending in than intentionally standing out like a sore thumb.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

You should not have to blend in to be treated fairly and with respect.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

If you think that's bad, I am a carpenter. They have been crucifying them for over 2000 years.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

CC Pereira said:


> Trans people are not the only people who get treated unfairly. Many people get treated unfairly, with disregard, and disrespect, for a lot of different excuses (usually due to the differences between them and others). I think if someone wants to be treated like everyone else, they are better off blending in than intentionally standing out like a sore thumb.


How do you propose people 'blend in' and why do you feel it's acceptable to bully anyone? 

Are you suggesting that my masculine looking friend needs to reassign to make people feel more comfortable? 

I personally find many young straight couples overt PDA's extremely offensive. Should I be allowed to spit on them, call their employers and demand they be fired because they aren't blending in with the the bunch I want them to blend in with? 

My native friends don't really blend in with my caucasian friends, is bullying acceptable there too? Some seem to feel it is. 

What's so terribly wrong about treating people as people and worrying less justifying bullying and trying to controlling their personal lives?


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> You should not have to blend in to be treated fairly and with respect.


When, in the history of mankind, did those who did/do not blend in get treated the same as those who do???

Too short or too tall, too fat or too thin, too dark skinned or too light, from the wrong religion, from the wrong area, have the wrong hair style, wear the wrong clothes style and on, and on, and on.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

homesteadforty said:


> When, in the history of mankind, did those who did/do not blend in get treated the same as those who do???
> 
> Too short or too tall, too fat or too thin, too dark skinned or too light, from the wrong religion, from the wrong area, have the wrong hair style, wear the wrong clothes style and on, and on, and on.


Does not make it right or something that should be promoted. Teach people to treat others as individuals and with respect no matter their differences.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

I don't care what people do to make themselves happy, but, how does it go, your freedom ends where my nose begins.

The fact that the trans movement is attempting to climb right up the noses of others is what has gotten people's panties in a wad about the issue. Otherwise, I think most people couldn't care less.

The only other way I care is that I hate to see young people convinced that irreversible side effects from hormone replacements and irreversable surgeries will cure all that ails them when it's very likely that it will do nothing of the sort for the vast, vast, vast majority of them. Quite the opposite, in fact. That part really bothers me, terribly, and I think it should bother everyone.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> You should not have to blend in to be treated fairly and with respect.


If you don't want extra attention, you shouldn't ask for extra attention. For example, I have only heard of 1 heterosexual parade, but have heard of there being many parades for homosexual and A-Z people. In that case, people who say they don't want the extra attention are intentionally asking for extra attention. If you don't want the extra attention from a parade, don't participate in the parade. If you don't want to be treated as extremely different, don't act extremely different. If you do want the extra attention though, have at it -- but don't whine about the extra attention you got if you asked for it.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Does not make it right or something that should be promoted. Teach people to treat others as individuals and with respect no matter their differences.


Absolutely correct... it's not right at all... but it is a fact of life. I taught my kids and now my grandkids that life lesson very well. I've personally been in a number of ummm... physical discussions when friends I've been with were so insulted and unable to defend themselves. I take this stuff rather seriously but I also think it's pollyannish to think it will stop.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CC Pereira said:


> If you don't want extra attention, you shouldn't ask for extra attention. For example, I have only heard of 1 heterosexual parade, but have heard of there being many parades for homosexual and A-Z people. In that case, people who say they don't want the extra attention are intentionally asking for extra attention. If you don't want the extra attention from a parade, don't participate in the parade. If you don't want to be treated as extremely different, don't act extremely different. If you do want the extra attention though, have at it -- but don't whine about the extra attention you got if you asked for it.


People can celebrate whatever they want and if it's their sexual identity then they have that right. You don't have to agree with it or like it. There are plenty of heterosexuals that celebrate their sex every single day in parades. Ever heard of Carnival? The are plenty of people that don't go to the parades and are perfectly happy in their own lives but if they want to then they should and there should not be told not to.

The people who are complaining are the people living ordinary lives but have to listen to the crap of haters because they are transgender no matter what parade they go to or not.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

homesteadforty said:


> Absolutely correct... it's not right at all... but it is a fact of life. I taught my kids and now my grandkids that life lesson very well. I've personally been in a number of ummm... physical discussions when friends I've been with were so insulted and unable to defend themselves. I take this stuff rather seriously but I also think it's pollyannish to think it will stop.


Yet we have posters disrespecting others' lives by telling them to blend in.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

wr said:


> How do you propose people 'blend in' and why do you feel it's acceptable to bully anyone?
> 
> Are you suggesting that my masculine looking friend needs to reassign to make people feel more comfortable?
> 
> ...


Where have I ever said that I 'feel it's acceptable to bully anyone'? I have never said that. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth and then treating me as if I actually said things that I really didn't.

I also did not suggest that anyone take drugs and mutilate their bodies to fit in. In fact, I very much disagree with doing any such thing to anyone's body, especially to the bodies of children. What I did suggest, is that if you don't want to be treated as an outcast, then maybe don't intentionally bring unnecessary attention to yourself.

PDAs? Please explain that one for me. I don't think anyone deserves to be physically or psychologically abused (which would include spitting on them, firing, not hiring, canceled, etc.), neglected, or treated as less than, regardless of their differences.

Never said there is anything wrong with treating people as people. Actually, if anything, I have said the opposite of that, multiple times. I also never justified or tried to justify bullying or controlling the lives of others ... protecting the lives of others sure, but not bullying or controlling the lives of others.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> People can celebrate whatever they want and if it's their sexual identity then they have that right. You don't have to agree with it or like it. There are plenty of heterosexuals that celebrate their sex every single day in parades. Ever heard of Carnival? The are plenty of people that don't go to the parades and are perfectly happy in their own lives but if they want to then they should and there should not be told not to.
> 
> The people who are complaining are the people living ordinary lives but have to listen to the crap of haters because they are transgender no matter what parade they go to or not.


I did not say that people don't have the right to celebrate their sexual identity. What I actually said was 'If you do want the extra attention though, have at it -- but don't whine about the extra attention you got if you asked for it'. By 'Carnival', do you mean the cruise ships (which is completely irrelevant)? If you want to celebrate your sexuality without the extra attention, there are certainly many ways to do that, without everyone around you having to wait for you to parade yourself don't the street to share your sexuality with the world.

There are some haters, but I think most people really don't care what everyone else's gender or sexuality is, so long as they don't have to participate in it.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CC Pereira said:


> I did not say that people don't have the right to celebrate their sexual identity. What I actually said was 'If you do want the extra attention though, have at it -- but don't whine about the extra attention you got if you asked for it'. By 'Carnival', do you mean the cruise ships (which is completely irrelevant)? If you want to celebrate your sexuality without the extra attention, there are certainly many ways to do that, without everyone around you having to wait for you to parade yourself don't the street to share your sexuality with the world.
> 
> There are some haters, but I think most people really don't care what everyone else's gender or sexuality is, so long as they don't have to participate in it.


"I think if someone wants to be treated like everyone else, they are better off blending in than intentionally standing out like a sore thumb."

Your exact words. People should not have to blend in to be treated like everyone else. I find that statement abhorrent.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> Yet we have posters disrespecting others' lives by telling them to blend in.


Telling people that if they don't want extra attention, then simply don't ask for it, is not disrespectful, it is just common sense. Feel free to blend in or not ... and to deal with whatever reactions you get, like everyone else. I'm not saying mistreatment because of one's differences is okay, it's not. Equal treatment is fair, but special treatment is not.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Here is a video of a discussion between 2 trans people that is very enlightening. No matter what your beliefs on the subject, I think there is something to be learned from watching it. I believe Blaire is about 30 and Buck is close to 60. I found it interesting that when Buck transitioned, it required intensive counseling, plus he had to live as a man for a year before he could begin transitioning. Children now can have surgery as young as 12 and 14 with no counseling required.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CC Pereira said:


> Telling people that if they don't want extra attention, then simply don't ask for it, is not disrespectful, it is just common sense. Feel free to blend in or not ... and to deal with whatever reactions you get, like everyone else. I'm not saying mistreatment because of one's differences is okay, it's not. Equal treatment is fair, but special treatment is not.


How is someone being who they are, in a manner you don't like, asking for special treatment?

Was WR's female friend asking for the special treatment she got because people thought she was transgender?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

CC Pereira said:


> PDAs? Please explain that one for me. I don't think anyone deserves to be physically or psychologically abused (which would include spitting on them, firing, not hiring, canceled, etc.), neglected, or treated as less than, regardless of their differences.


Public Display of Affection, the term is in every single high school code of conduct.



wr said:


> I agree but that seems to be a retailer issue and they seem to select something to be trendy.
> 
> I really don't think the average gay person really cares if Walmart sells rainbow t-shirts or umbrellas and quite factually, things like that make it a lot harder for those who just want to live their lives because people come to believe they are all militant, agressive and desire attention.


Maybe that's why all that stuff is still in the clearance section.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> "I think if someone wants to be treated like everyone else, they are better off blending in than intentionally standing out like a sore thumb."
> 
> Your exact words. People should not have to blend in to be treated like everyone else. I find that statement abhorrent.


Why? I listened to a Blaire White video yesterday and she was discussing pronouns. She said when she first transitioned, it bothered her when someone referred to her as he. But she didn't get upset at the person who "misgendered" her, she realized she had to get better at being a woman. She has and says it has been years since anyone referred to her as a he.

This appears to be the mature approach.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> "I think if someone wants to be treated like everyone else, they are better off blending in than intentionally standing out like a sore thumb."
> 
> Your exact words. People should not have to blend in to be treated like everyone else. I find that statement abhorrent.


Yah I said that, so? If you walk in public with one boob hanging out of your shirt, you're probably going to be treated at least a little differently than others who do not walk around with one boob hanging out, because you're the only one doing that, so you will stand out. If most people walk around in public naked, but you go out in public with clothes on, even if they're expensive fancy clothes, you will probably be treated differently than others, because you look so different. So? The naked cowboy probably got treated different than others for a while too. Now everyone just accepts him for what he is and does, and treats him pretty much like everyone else ... but everyone knows who the naked coyboy is, right?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CC Pereira said:


> Yah I said that, so? If you walk in public with one boob hanging out of your shirt, you're probably going to be treated at least a little differently than others who do not walk around with one boob hanging out, because you're the only one doing that, so you will stand out. If most people walk around in public naked, but you go out in public with clothes on, even if they're expensive fancy clothes, you will probably be treated differently than others, because you look so different. So? The naked cowboy probably got treated different than others for a while too. Now everyone just accepts him for what he is and does, and treats him pretty much like everyone else ... but everyone knows who the naked coyboy is, right?


I don't feel the need to treat someone with their breast out differently. I may not engage with them because I am not interested in looking at what is hanging out but I don't go out of my way to tell them that they are different or treat them differently.

Just replace transgender with Japanese or Chinese or Arab and it is the same thing. Treating people differently because of who they are at their core in the way of looks or gender is wrong.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

CC Pereira said:


> Where have I ever said that I 'feel it's acceptable to bully anyone'? I have never said that. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth and then treating me as if I actually said things that I really didn't.
> 
> I also did not suggest that anyone take drugs and mutilate their bodies to fit in. In fact, I very much disagree with doing any such thing to anyone's body, especially to the bodies of children. What I did suggest, is that if you don't want to be treated as an outcast, then maybe don't intentionally bring unnecessary attention to yourself.
> 
> ...


Yet you responded to my comment by suggesting people need to blend in or they will be treated badly and I offered up some very current examples of people being treated badly.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

painterswife said:


> I don't feel the need to treat someone with their breast out differently. I may not engage with them because I am not interested in looking at what is hanging out but I don't go out of my way to tell them that they are different or treat them differently.
> 
> Just replace transgender with Japanese or Chinese or Arab and it is the same thing. Treating people differently because of who they are at their core in the way of looks or gender is wrong.


Not to be argumentative, but it's not the same thing. Japanese/Chinese/Arab people are born Japanese/Chinese/Arab. Transgender people are doing something to change what they were born as. Apples to oranges.

Interestingly, there is a whole kerfuffle about some white British TikTok-er who has been having plastic surgery and "culturally appropriating" to more accurately portray his Asian self-identity.

That's more apples to apples, and it's weird that the crowd that is fully supportive of the trans movement is the same crowd that is screaming for this guy to lose his head. Oh, until he recently came out as also non-binary, which I guess quieted them down a little bit. But he's still racist.

This whole thing is just...well, not completely sane. It's applesauce and orange juice.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Mish said:


> Not to be argumentative, but it's not the same thing. Japanese/Chinese/Arab people are born Japanese/Chinese/Arab. Transgender people are doing something to change what they were born as. Apples to oranges.
> 
> Interestingly, there is a whole kerfuffle about some white British TikTok-er who has been having plastic surgery and "culturally appropriating" to more accurately portray his Asian self-identity.
> 
> ...


They are only changing the package to look like they are on the inside. I see it as very much the same thing.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> I don't feel the need to treat someone with their breast out differently. I may not engage with them because I am not interested in looking at what is hanging out but I don't go out of my way to tell them that they are different or treat them differently.


If I saw someone out and about with one boob hanging out, I would ask her if she was aware of it (because if I had one boob hanging out, I would hope that someone would bring it to my attention ASAP), and if she said yes she was aware of it, I would assume she did it on purpose because she wants the extra attention ... and then I would intentionally not give her the extra attention (because I wouldn't want to reward her with the extra attention or special treatment).



painterswife said:


> Just replace transgender with Japanese or Chinese or Arab and it is the same thing. Treating people differently because of who they are at their core in the way of looks or gender is wrong.


I understand what you're saying here, and I agree. I don't think trans people should be treated different because they are trans, but like anyone else, if they intentionally stand out like a sore thumb, they are likely to be treated differently. I'm not saying it's right to do so, but it is likely.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> People can celebrate whatever they want and if it's their sexual identity then they have that right. You don't have to agree with it or like it.


Yes, they can. But if they celebrate it publicly, they should expect attention... both good and bad.



> You don't have to agree with it or like it.


I may not have to, but I surely can if I so desire



> There are plenty of heterosexuals that celebrate their sex every single day in parades. Ever heard of Carnival?


Carnival is a celebration of Lent and though there is plenty of sexuality involved (especially in the costuming... or lack thereof  ) it is not a celebration of sex.
[/QUOTE]


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

wr said:


> Yet you responded to my comment by suggesting people need to blend in or they will be treated badly and I offered up some very current examples of people being treated badly.


If people look or act extremely different than most others around them, it is only natural for others to pay more attention to those who look or act extremely different. If a dog is dressed in a tutu dress, other dogs will notice, and the tutu wearing dog will be treated different than the other dogs ... does that mean the other dogs are bad, or wrong for noticing the dog in a tutu dress? It's normal for people and other animals to notice and react to such differences, and saying so doesn't automatically mean that I think it's a okay to mistreat anyone due to their differences.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> How is someone being who they are, in a manner you don't like, asking for special treatment?
> 
> Was WR's female friend asking for the special treatment she got because people thought she was transgender?


It's not just her. Her coworkers are being bulled to 'out' her and her employer is being bullied to fire a 10+ year stellar exceptional employee.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> They are only changing the package to look like they are on the inside. I see it as very much the same thing.


It's not, whether you see it that way or not. A person doesn't choose to look white, black, Asian, etc. But they must choose to have the surgery to look like a different gender.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> It's not just her. Her coworkers are being bulled to 'out' her and her employer is being bullied to fire a 10+ year stellar exceptional employee.


It is so ugly. People are so transphobic and show it in so many ugly ways.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

painterswife said:


> They are only changing the package to look like they are on the inside. I see it as very much the same thing.


I get what you're saying, and I generally have no issue with that concept. My problem comes in when the assumption is made that changing what they look like on the outside somehow changes the way they actually function physically, or mentally.

Dude thinking he's Asian when he was born white, I'm not sure what harm to others comes from that - it passes my "nose" rule. "Woman" who used to be "Dude" until he changed what he looked like on the outside competing in sports against women who were always women, and beating them, because he literally just cut some parts off and pasted some others on (or not even doing that, just saying they are a woman makes it so, I guess), but is actually physically still a dude as far as his muscle and bone development goes...big problem with that. Right up my nose as a woman and a woman with daughters and nieces.

And it's weird to me that it's perfectly fine for people to say they're men when they're women, or women when they're men (again, no problem with that specifically), but then it's wrong (to the point of ruining people's lives) for someone to say they're Asian when they're white, or black when they're white, or Native American when they're white, or white when they're black, or....whatever.

The hypocrisy is just confusing. And illogical. And supremely irritating.

Edited because bad at word making.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> I don't feel the need to treat someone with their breast out differently. I may not engage with them because I am not interested in looking at what is hanging out but I don't go out of my way to tell them that they are different or treat them differently.


Would you feel the same if a guy was walking around with his package hanging out... or would you complain... maybe to a store manager... or the police...or even just here???


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> How is someone being who they are, in a manner you don't like, asking for special treatment?
> 
> Was WR's female friend asking for the special treatment she got because people thought she was transgender?


Looking or acting extremely different than those around you is likely to fetch some additional attention, which does not make others giving the extra attention bad. Expecting to be treated better than anyone else because of your differences is special treatment that no one is entitled to.

If WR's female friend did not intentionally look or act extremely different than others, then she should not receive any extra attention, especially unwanted attention.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

homesteadforty said:


> Would you feel the same if a guy was walking around with his package hanging out... or would you complain... maybe to a store manager... or the police...or even just here???


Lower body parts is very different than upper body parts. I do believe that women have just as much right to be topless as men.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CC Pereira said:


> Looking or acting extremely different than those around you is likely to fetch some additional attention, which does not make others giving the extra attention bad. Expecting to be treated better than anyone else because of your differences is special treatment that no one is entitled to.
> 
> If WR's female friend did not intentionally look or act extremely different than others, then she should not receive any extra attention, especially unwanted attention.


Telling people to blend in is telling them it is all right if you are treated differently because of how they look. You did not say it in those exact words but you said it over and over I other words while trying to justify your statement.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

CC Pereira said:


> If people look or act extremely different than most others around them, it is only natural for others to pay more attention to those who look or act extremely different. If a dog is dressed in a tutu dress, other dogs will notice, and the tutu wearing dog will be treated different than the other dogs ... does that mean the other dogs are bad, or wrong for noticing the dog in a tutu dress? It's normal for people and other animals to notice and react to such differences, and saying so doesn't automatically mean that I think it's a okay to mistreat anyone due to their differences.


There you go again, justifying bullyinng because someone is somewhat different. By your observations, my native friends somehow deserve to be treated different because they can't blend and neither can I. Perhaps even though they are professionals, they are still drunks and theives. 

My friend, who through no fault of her own is a 6' woman with broad shoulders and a bit of a roll over her belt buckle, somehow deserves to be treated different, including being fired from a job she does well for over 10 years simply because somebody decided they needed to out her for something she isn't. 

Yet my trans friend, whom many would love to 'out' and destroy her professionally, would attract absolutely no notice. She appears to be nothing more than a tall slender, attractive woman in a business suit. 

It seems you've set your standard as the standard we all must live by and I'm not real comfortable with the idea that your standard sanctions treating people badly if they don't meet your undefined criteria. 

I will decline to respond to your silly tutu comment because it's trite and irrelevant.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

homesteadforty said:


> It's not, whether you see it that way or not. A person doesn't choose to look white, black, Asian, etc. But they must choose to have the surgery to look like a different gender.


How will you know if someone has had surgery to look like a different gender?


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> Lower body parts is very different than upper body parts. I do believe that women have just as much right to be topless as men.


Breasts and pecks are NOT the same thing at all. Women have breasts, men have pecks ... and sometimes moobs. Women can breast feed, men cannot. The end.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I am going to say this so maybe you might understand.

We all have our biases and our learned behaviors. We may intentionally or unintentionally treat others differently because of them. We should be striving to not do that. It should not matter if a person, dresses feminine or masculine and what their birth sex was or is in relationship to that. It should not matter if they had some surgery to change their looks. 

Telling them to blend in is telling them they are not acceptable if they don't. Instead of trying to do better and not judge you are outright telling them that they can't be who they are.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CC Pereira said:


> Breasts and pecks are NOT the same thing at all. Women have breasts, men have pecks ... and sometimes moobs. Women can breast feed, men cannot. The end.


And that right there is another problem with our society. Breasts are not sexual organs they are nutritional providers. Men can breast feed if they want to just might not be that good at providing nutrition. Many women are also not able to provide good nutrition with their breasts but that is still their purpose..


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

CC Pereira said:


> Breasts and pecks are NOT the same thing at all. Women have breasts, men have pecks ... and sometimes moobs. Women can breast feed, men cannot. The end.


A lot more moobs than there used to be. Those should be censored the same as woobs. Probably more damaging to the psyche.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> Telling people to blend in is telling them it is all right if you are treated differently because of how they look. You did not say it in those exact words but you said it over and over I other words while trying to justify your statement.


I did not tell people to blend in. I also did not say that it is okay to treat people different due to their differences (actually I said the opposite multiple times). I did say if a person does not want additional or unwanted attention, then simply don't intentionally look or act so differently than others that it causes others to notice and react to such differences ... which would apply to everyone equally, even other animals.

If you are going to respond to what I say, please just respond to what I actually say, instead of putting your own words into my mouth and responding to that instead.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CC Pereira said:


> I did not tell people to blend in. I also did not say that it is okay to treat people different due to their differences (actually I said the opposite multiple times). I did say if a person does not want additional or unwanted attention, then simply don't intentionally look or act so differently than others that it causes others to notice and react to such differences ... which would apply to everyone equally, even other animals.
> 
> If you are going to respond to what I say, please just respond to what I actually say, instead of putting your own words into my mouth and responding to that instead.


You did say people should blend in. Right there in black and white.

"I think if someone wants to be treated like everyone else, they are better off blending in than intentionally standing out like a sore thumb"


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

wr said:


> There you go again, justifying bullyinng because someone is somewhat different. By your observations, my native friends somehow deserve to be treated different because they can't blend and neither can I. Perhaps even though they are professionals, they are still drunks and theives.
> 
> My friend, who through no fault of her own is a 6' woman with broad shoulders and a bit of a roll over her belt buckle, somehow deserves to be treated different, including being fired from a job she does well for over 10 years simply because somebody decided they needed to out her for something she isn't.
> 
> ...


There you go again, saying I said something I didn't, and responding to that instead of what I actually said. Once again, I have never justified bullying people because of their differences (whether that be their gender, sexuality, skin color, or whatever). I am half native American, but I don't go out of my way to look or act different than every one around me, because I don't want the extra attention. I also never claimed that native Americans (such as myself) are drunks or thieves ... but you did ... 

I also never said that your friend deserves to be mistreated because of her appearance, or that your trans friend deserves to be treated better than your female friend. Neither of them deserve to be mistreated, or treated better than the other, or better or worse than anyone else.

I express my opinions like everyone else. That in no way means I'm trying to make anyone do or not do anything. Yes, I have standards. I don't care if you agree with my standards or not.

Once again, I never said that I think it's okay to mistreat anyone because of their differences, or because they don't meet my standards or criteria. You saying that I believe, think, or feel something, does not mean that I actually believe, think, or feel what you say I do. I can and prefer to express my own beliefs, thoughts, and feelings, for myself, thanx.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Lower body parts is very different than upper body parts. I do believe that women have just as much right to be topless as men.


One can only hope...


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> I am going to say this so maybe you might understand.
> 
> We all have our biases and our learned behaviors. We may intentionally or unintentionally treat others differently because of them. We should be striving to not do that. It should not matter if a person, dresses feminine or masculine and what their birth sex was or is in relationship to that. It should not matter if they had some surgery to change their looks.
> 
> Telling them to blend in is telling them they are not acceptable if they don't. Instead of trying to do better and not judge you are outright telling them that they can't be who they are.


I agree that people shouldn't be treated differently because of their differences, but I also accept and understand that looking or acting too different from others will likely result in additional and maybe unwanted attention.

Once again, I did not tell anyone to blend in, but I did say that anyone who did not want extra attention or to be treated differently would be better off blending in than intentionally standing out like a sore thumb. I did not tell anyone that not blending in is unacceptable. I also did not tell anyone that they can't be whatever they want to be.

Again, please stop twisting my words, replacing my words with yours, and accusing me of saying things that I did not.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"*I think if someone wants to be treated like everyone else, they are better off blending in *than intentionally standing out like a sore thumb"

It is right there. You tell people they should blend in instead of being themselves soothers won't treat them differently. Black and white.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

wr said:


> How will you know if someone has had surgery to look like a different gender?


It's sometimes still very possible to tell... remember the Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition cover.. he transitioned to a very pretty female but if one looked it was obvious she had formerly been he.

But to your point... I wouldn't look that closely nor care without a specific reason.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> And that right there is another problem with our society. Breasts are not sexual organs they are nutritional providers. Men can breast feed if they want to just might not be that good at providing nutrition. Many women are also not able to provide good nutrition with their breasts but that is still their purpose..


Have you EVER taken a biology class? Breasts have milk ducts, but pecks and moobs do not. Breasts can produce milk, but pecks and moobs do not. Women have breasts and can therefore breast feed. Men do not have breasts, but instead they have pecks, and therefore men cannot breast feed. If a woman cannot breast feed, it is due to an abnormal medical problem or mastectomy. If a man can peck feed, it is due to an abnormal medical problem, or taking pharmaceutical drugs or hormones to force an unnatural state.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> You did say people should blend in. Right there in black and white.
> 
> "I think if someone wants to be treated like everyone else, they are better off blending in than intentionally standing out like a sore thumb"


Saying someone is better off blending in if they want to be treated the same as others, is not the same as saying people should or have to blend in.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CC Pereira said:


> Have you EVER taken a biology class? Breasts have milk ducts, but pecks and moobs do not. Breasts can produce milk, but pecks and moobs do not. Women have breasts and can therefore breast feed. Men do not have breasts, but instead they have pecks, and therefore men cannot breast feed. If a woman cannot breast feed, it is due to an abnormal medical problem or mastectomy. If a man can peck feed, it is due to an abnormal medical problem, or taking pharmaceutical drugs or hormones to force an unnatural state.


Males have underdeveloped milk glands.

"Males have breasts, too. During puberty, the male hormone testosterone usually stops breasts from developing like a female’s. On the outside, males have nipples and areolae. Internally, they have undeveloped milk ducts and no glandular tissue. "








Breast Anatomy: Breast Cancer, Breastfeeding, Conditions


The female breast anatomy includes internal milk ducts and glands and external nipples. Breasts aid breastfeeding and enhance sexual pleasure.




my.clevelandclinic.org




.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> And that right there is another problem with our society. Breasts are not sexual organs they are nutritional providers.


So you are saying we should all post images of bare breasts because they have no sexual context??? Seems to me you're only wanting to consider half of their uses.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Ok people, from what I'm reading, the reason you can't show female breasts is because they have milk glands. Men's breasts don't have milk glands and are therefore OK to look at.

We are such a weird society.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Mish said:


> I get what you're saying, and I generally have no issue with that concept. My problem comes in when the assumption is made that changing what they look like on the outside somehow changes the way they actually function physically, or mentally.
> 
> Dude thinking he's Asian when he was born white, I'm not sure what harm to others comes from that - it passes my "nose" rule. "Woman" who used to be "Dude" until he changed what he looked like on the outside competing in sports against women who were always women, and beating them, because he literally just cut some parts off and pasted some others on (or not even doing that, just saying they are a woman makes it so, I guess), but is actually physically still a dude as far as his muscle and bone development goes...big problem with that. Right up my nose as a woman and a woman with daughters and nieces.
> 
> ...


Yet we have Asians changing the shape of their eyes so they can be better accepted, natives who want to marry caucasians so their children will have lighter skin and be better accepted. 

I figure it's a whole lot easier to accept people at face value and let them deal with the rest.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

homesteadforty said:


> So you are saying we should all post images of bare breasts because they have no sexual context??? Seems to me you're only wanting to consider half of their uses.


Many societies do not have a problem with women bare breasts. Then again many see feet in a sexual content. Should we not allow bare feet?


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> "*I think if someone wants to be treated like everyone else, they are better off blending in *than intentionally standing out like a sore thumb"
> 
> It is right there. You tell people they should blend in instead of being themselves soothers won't treat them differently. Black and white.


So what? What is so bad about saying people are better off blending in than intentionally standing out like a sore thumb, in order to avoid unwanted attention? I did not tell anyone they should blend in instead of being themselves. What I actually said is right there, in black and white.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

CC Pereira said:


> Breasts and pecks are NOT the same thing at all. Women have breasts, men have pecks ... and sometimes moobs. Women can breast feed, men cannot. The end.


Yet men get breast cancer so not the end.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

homesteadforty said:


> It's sometimes still very possible to tell... remember the Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition cover.. he transitioned to a very pretty female but if one looked it was obvious she had formerly been he.
> 
> But to your point... I wouldn't look that closely nor care without a specific reason.


The process has changed a lot over the years but the fine tuning is costly and takes time. Navels can be surgically moved and adams apples are shaved.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Men can breast feed if they want to just might not be that good at providing nutrition.


Only in extremely rare instances like hormonal genetic disorders and diseases like a rare type of pituitary tumor. Look up "can men lactate" and you'll find the current research. BTW, the above information, though not quoted, is from The Scientific American journal.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

wr said:


> The process has changed a lot over the years but the fine tuning is costly and takes time. Navels can be surgically moved and adams apples are shaved.


I kinda assumed there had been advances but hadn't really checked into it recently... thanks for the info.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

Why is it so difficult for people to simply accept and admit that there are two genders, that men and women are not the same, that women have breasts and men have pecks which are not the same, that women can menstruate and men cannot, that women can get pregnant and men cannot, that women can breastfeed and men cannot? Facts like this used to be well known. Hopefully someday, we can get back to reality.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

CC Pereira said:


> Saying someone is better off blending in if they want to be treated the same as others, is not the same as saying people should or have to blend in.


Do you think the young woman with pink hair or the tattoo deserves to be made to feel uncomfortable because her idea of beauty is different than your?

I assume that means we can also treat elderly women with violet or red hair rinses just as negatively because they aren't blending. 

It really doesn't matter how many times you keep spinning, your statement allows people you don't agree with to be treated differently and once you go down that path, there is the opportunity for bullying and abuse.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

wr said:


> Yet men get breast cancer so not the end.


Calling it 'breast cancer' if a man gets cancer in his pecks (I know it isn't just you calling it that though) doesn't mean men have breasts.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Men have breasts. They sure do.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

wr said:


> Do you think the young woman with pink hair or the tattoo deserves to be made to feel uncomfortable because her idea of beauty is different than your?
> 
> I assume that means we can also treat elderly women with violet or red hair rinses just as negatively because they aren't blending.
> 
> It really doesn't matter how many times you keep spinning, your statement allows people you don't agree with to be treated differently and once you go down that path, there is the opportunity for bullying and abuse.


I didn't say anything about hair color, tattoos, or any other common thing that so many people do. None of these things are likely to fetch unwanted attention.

Accepting and understanding that people who intentionally look or act extremely different than others around them is likely to fetch additional and maybe unwanted attention, is just an observable fact. Nothing I have said prevents or allows anyone to or not to do anything. Nothing I have said justifies the mistreatment, bullying, or abuse, of anyone.

You and PW are just grasping at straws. Please stop twisting my words into pretzels, and then treating me as if I actually said the revised versions of what I actually said.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

CC Pereira said:


> Calling it 'breast cancer' if a man gets cancer in his pecks (I know it isn't just you calling it that though) doesn't mean men have breasts.


Sorry... seems the CDC disagrees with you:

"Breast cancer is most often found in women, but men can get breast cancer too. About 1 out of every 100 breast cancers diagnosed in the United States is found in a man. Invasive ductal carcinoma. The cancer cells begin in the ducts and then grow outside the ducts into other parts of the breast tissue."


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

CC Pereira said:


> Calling it 'breast cancer' if a man gets cancer in his pecks (I know it isn't just you calling it that though) doesn't mean men have breasts.


"Pecs" is short for pectoral muscles. Not breast tissue, which lies on top of the pectoral muscles. Both sexes have pectoral muscles, and both sexes have breast tissue.

Not trying to be nit picky, but, there are some nits here to pick.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

Mish said:


> "Pecs" is short for pectoral muscles. Not breast tissue, which lies on top of the pectoral muscles. Both sexes have pectoral muscles, and both sexes have breast tissue.
> 
> Not trying to be nit picky, but, there are some nits here to pick.


I understand what you are saying, and you are right ... but women's breasts are NOT the same as men's ... whatever people are calling them these days.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Mish said:


> Ok people, from what I'm reading, the reason you can't show female breasts is because they have milk glands. Men's breasts don't have milk glands and are therefore OK to look at.
> 
> We are such a weird society.


I have to go to the x-rated isle in Kroger to buy milk. I turn a little red in the face when someone I know catches me in there.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> I have to go to the x-rated isle in Kroger to buy milk. I turn a little red in the face when someone I know catches me in there.


And we're marketing that stuff to children!


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Mish said:


> And we're marketing that stuff to children!



IKR!!!


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

If you didn't watch the video I posted earlier in the thread, I encourage you to do so. It cuts through the BS and falsehoods and gets to the real issue - young kids being given puberty blockers and undergoing surgery.

#118


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

CC Pereira said:


> I understand what you are saying, and you are right ... but women's breasts are NOT the same as men's ... whatever people are calling them these days.


Physiologically they are quite the same and men's breasts have always been called well... breasts. I think you may be conflating breasts with pectoral muscles... but there's a problem there to... women have pectoral muscles too. The only difference is the amount of each a man or woman has... but both sexes do have both types of tissue.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

MoonRiver said:


> If you didn't watch the video I posted earlier in the thread, I encourage you to do so. It cuts through the BS and falsehoods and gets to the real issue - young kids being given puberty blockers and undergoing surgery.
> 
> #118


I think most watched it but they're currently more interested in the conversation they want to have rather than the one you're telling them to have. Are you feeling ignored or something???


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CC Pereira said:


> I understand what you are saying, and you are right ... but women's breasts are NOT the same as men's ... whatever people are calling them these days.


You have got it wrong about men having breasts. You have also got it wrong about lactation in men's breast. They mostly have undeveloped milk ducts but hormones and even medications can change that. They are still and have always been breasts.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Many societies do not have a problem with women bare breasts. Then again many see feet in a sexual content. Should we not allow bare feet?


Yeah... but we don't live in any of those societies... do we??? Mores the pity. Only 100 or so years ago it was ankles and elbows... and hair has often been a thing too. Maybe someone has it right... no???

BTW... I personally have no problem whatsoever with bare breasts.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

MoonRiver said:


> If you didn't watch the video I posted earlier in the thread, I encourage you to do so. It cuts through the BS and falsehoods and gets to the real issue - young kids being given puberty blockers and undergoing surgery.
> 
> #118


I agree ... I think the subject of this thread has been changed into something else entirely ... I apologize for participating in that.

I think that anyone who participates in brainwashing kids (to encourage them to believe that they are a gender other than what they really are, or that they should be transgender, or that doctors guess what the gender of babies are), providing or allowing the use of puberty blockers, providing or allowing genital mutilation, is participating in child abuse, and should be treated like any other child abuser.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

The responsible medical use of drugs (for things like pain) and surgery makes sense, but just because we _can_ use drugs to make a person's body do something abnormal or unnatural (such as preventing a female from lactating when she normally would or causing a male to lactate when his body normally wouldn't, preventing or prolonging puberty, or taking harmful drugs to avoid reality), doesn't mean we should.

If genital mutilation makes an adult person feel better about themselves, that's their business. Doing the same to children OTOH, is just child abuse, plain and simple.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

homesteadforty said:


> I think most watched it but they're currently more interested in the conversation they want to have rather than the one you're telling them to have. Are you feeling ignored or something???


I mistakingly thought people might be interested in facts.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

This is about adult who transitioned and is now detransitioning. All while posting on YouTube and other platforms about the process. Not children. Have you researched this person and the facts about that journey? I was interested enough to.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> I mistakingly thought people might be interested in facts.


In my experience, the truth is the most unwelcome commodity on the face of the earth.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

Some adults who do this to themselves may have regrets or maybe not, but hopefully only they themselves will be affected by the consequences of their choices.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> This is about adult who transitioned and is now detransitioning. All while posting on YouTube and other platforms about the process. Not children. Have you researched this person and the facts about that journey? I was interested enough to.


Thanx for the reminder ... it was an adult (18?) not a child.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

I have a related quick question for others here: if you have a friend or family member who pretends to be a gender other than the gender they were born as, do you feel obligated to go along with their fantasy? I wouldn't, but am curious how others feel about this.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I have had friends over the years that are a gender they were not assigned at birth. No need to pretend anything. They are what they say they are .


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> This is about adult who transitioned and is now detransitioning. All while posting on YouTube and other platforms about the process. Not children. Have you researched this person and the facts about that journey? I was interested enough to.


I haven’t had time but would be interested in knowing more.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

CC Pereira said:


> I have a related quick question for others here: if you have a friend or family member who pretends to be a gender other than the gender they were born as, do you feel obligated to go along with their fantasy? I wouldn't, but am curious how others feel about this.


I know of one. Had the surgeries in Cali. Still my friend though.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

painterswife said:


> I have had friends over the years that are a gender they were not assigned at birth. No need to pretend anything. They are what they say they are .


Word games do not change biology. Surgery and hormones do not change chromosomes. If an adult chooses to undergo such, so be it. What is going on with minors and encouraged is criminal behavior.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

CC Pereira said:


> I have a related quick question for others here: if you have a friend or family member who pretends to be a gender other than the gender they were born as, do you feel obligated to go along with their fantasy? I wouldn't, but am curious how others feel about this.


It’s not up to me to tell someone how to live their life and I have two opinions.

Humiliate them every chance I get to try and force them to live their life as I dictate until I lose a friend or accept them for the person they are and allow them to live their life with dignity.

Do you think humiliating someone will somehow change their mind?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> I haven’t had time but would be interested in knowing more.


It is a very interesting story. She sort of cherishes her transition because of the things and experiences it gave her. She does regret some of the medical changes but not really the process. She was very involved in the online transgender community and she helped many people with her journey. She is only now admitting to her followers that her surgery got her addicted to opiates and that she was not completely honest with them. 

Her followers are forgiving towards her but most don't feel the same about their transitions. I believe every pre transition person should watch her videos. The good and the bad. It puts things in a perspective most people in the situations could not understand.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Hiro said:


> Word games do not change biology. Surgery and hormones do not change chromosomes. If an adult chooses to undergo such, so be it. What is going on with minors and encouraged is criminal behavior.


That’s something an odd myth that keeps circulating. 

Transgender people fully understand that biology doesn’t change but the exterior does.

Minors is a whole different thing to me. They should wait until they can legally make informed decisions.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

wr said:


> Transgender people fully understand that biology doesn’t change but the exterior does.


I am uncertain that such a statement is accurate and it is an awfully broad brush you are wielding.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

wr said:


> That’s something an odd myth that keeps circulating.
> 
> Transgender people fully understand that biology doesn’t change but the exterior does.


Someone interested in living their life as best they can may, as is their right. 
The ones on tv, in our schools in our faces, not so much. That applies to many types these days.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> I have had friends over the years that are a gender they were not assigned at birth. No need to pretend anything. They are what they say they are .


They are pretending. They are free to believe they are what they pretend to be. People can be happy, and should be happy pretending whatever they want. Pretending something won't ever make it a reality. Sorry, just won't.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

CC Pereira said:


> I think that anyone who participates in brainwashing kids (to encourage them to believe that they are a gender other than what they really are, or that they should be transgender, or that doctors guess what the gender of babies are), providing or allowing the use of puberty blockers, providing or allowing genital mutilation, is participating in child abuse, and should be treated like any other child abuser.


Everyone wants to be the gatekeeper of their own ideological house and that is the way it should be.
Unfortunately, more and more are wrapping their fences around their neighbor's yards and then expecting everyone's grass to look the same. Sort of an HOA for social conformity.
Monsters with a degree on their wall who butcher children go way beyond that. You can be angry at the ones who defend the practice, but you should save your best for the ones that actually do it.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

GTX63 said:


> They are pretending. They are free to believe they are what they pretend to be. People can be happy, and should be happy pretending whatever they want. Pretending something won't ever make it a reality. Sorry, just won't.


Surgery absolutely doesn’t change biology nor will it. I believe that most clear thinking individuals understand that.

In my opinion, it’s like any other cosmetic surgery. Most is done to make someone feel better about themselves


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

wr said:


> Surgery absolutely doesn’t change biology nor will it. I believe that most clear thinking individuals understand that.
> 
> In my opinion, it’s like any other cosmetic surgery. Most is done to make someone feel better about themselves


Clear thinking are the key words when it comes to cosmetic surgeries that are non reversible.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

CC Pereira said:


> I have a related quick question for others here: if you have a friend or family member who pretends to be a gender other than the gender they were born as, do you feel obligated to go along with their fantasy? I wouldn't, but am curious how others feel about this.


Not quite the same but, I had a neighbor, little girl about 3 to 4 years old, who spent 6 months pretending to be a dog. I never fed her cookies in a bowl on the floor.

Long before the surgery was available I had a relative which was born female but was very masculine. I didn't treat them any different than I treated anyone else. I didn't get involved in the tackle football games that she started because I was a frail skinny little kid who didn't want to end up at the bottom of a pile of bigger, heavier people.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> It is a very interesting story. She sort of cherishes her transition because of the things and experiences it gave her. She does regret some of the medical changes but not really the process. She was very involved in the online transgender community and she helped many people with her journey. She is only now admitting to her followers that her surgery got her addicted to opiates and that she was not completely honest with them.
> 
> Her followers are forgiving towards her but most don't feel the same about their transitions. I believe every pre transition person should watch her videos. The good and the bad. It puts things in a perspective most people in the situations could not understand.


I'm strongly of the opinion that every person who plans on transitioning should do all the research they possibly can. I'm also a strong believer in the need for long term counselling for many reasons. 

The process is not an easy process, surgeries are not without risk and changing your appearance is a significant issue but I feel the same for most cosmetic surgery as well and perhaps counselling would benefit those who are addicted to cosmetic surgery.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

CC Pereira said:


> I have a related quick question for others here: if you have a friend or family member who pretends to be a gender other than the gender they were born as, do you feel obligated to go along with their fantasy? I wouldn't, but am curious how others feel about this.


Unless there is some direct threat to me or mine, I tend to leave others be to mind their own affairs. I generally find that I have enough to do and enough to concern myself with to spend much time on how others live their lives.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

wr said:


> It’s not up to me to tell someone how to live their life and I have two opinions.
> 
> Humiliate them every chance I get to try and force them to live their life as I dictate until I lose a friend or accept them for the person they are and allow them to live their life with dignity.
> 
> Do you think humiliating someone will somehow change their mind?


I was just curious about whether or not people here would feel obligated to play along with someone else's fantasy (such as pretending that someone is a male if they were born female, or vise versa). I already said what I thought about it, and wanted to give others time to express their own opinions about it. I take it you would play along with such a fantasy.

People are free to pretend they are something they are not, just as others are free to pretend with them or not. I don't think there is anything wrong with playing along or not playing along with such fantasies. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to my question, I was just curious about what others think.

Free speech applies to everyone equally. Not playing along with such fantasies is not an attempt to hurt, humiliate, force anything on anyone, or prevent them from doing anything, any more than someone pretending to be something they are not is intended to hurt, humiliate, force anything on others, or prevent anyone from doing anything. Exercising your right to free speech is not an attempt to change anyone's mind either. If one person is free to identify as a pink unicorn, others are free to play along with the fantasy or not.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

CC Pereira said:


> I was just curious about whether or not people here would feel obligated to *play along* with someone else's *fantasy* (such as pretending that someone is a male if they were born female, or vise versa). I already said what I thought about it, and wanted to give others time to express their own opinions about it. I take it you would* play along with such a fantasy.*
> 
> People are *free to pretend* they are something they are not, just as others are *free to pretend* with them or not. I don't think there is anything wrong with *playing along or not playing along with such fantasies.* I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to my question, I was just curious about what others think.
> 
> Free speech applies to everyone equally. *Not playing along with such fantasies* is not an attempt to hurt, humiliate, force anything on anyone, or prevent them from doing anything, any more than *someone pretending to be something* they are not is intended to hurt, humiliate, force anything on others, or prevent anyone from doing anything. Exercising your right to free speech is not an attempt to change anyone's mind either. If one person is *free to identify* as a pink unicorn, others are *free to play along with the fantasy or not.*


Rather disingenuous to profess you don't have a bias when one is so observable... do you think???


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

homesteadforty said:


> Rather disingenuous to profess you don't have a bias when one is so observable... do you think???


I do have my own opinions about this (and I didn't profess not to), which I shared, but I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to my question. 

If a person is born as a male, but pretends to be or identifies as a female, such actions are based on their own fantasy -- because that person is in fact, a male. If a person is born as a female, but pretends to be or identifies as a male, such actions are based on their own fantasy -- because that person is in fact, a female. People are free to fantasize and pretend to their heart's content, just as others are free not to.


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## Vjk (Apr 28, 2020)

Abraham Lincoln faced with some thorny issue that could be settled by a twist of language, or a slight abuse of power, asks his questioner how many legs would a dog have, if we called the dog’s tail, a leg. “Five,” the questioner responds confident in his mathematical ability to do simple addition.







*“No,” Lincoln says. “Calling a dog’s tail a leg, doesn’t make it a leg.”*


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

CC Pereira said:


> I was just curious about whether or not people here would feel obligated to play along with someone else's fantasy (such as pretending that someone is a male if they were born female, or vise versa). I already said what I thought about it, and wanted to give others time to express their own opinions about it. I take it you would play along with such a fantasy.
> 
> People are free to pretend they are something they are not, just as others are free to pretend with them or not. I don't think there is anything wrong with playing along or not playing along with such fantasies. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to my question, I was just curious about what others think.
> 
> Free speech applies to everyone equally. Not playing along with such fantasies is not an attempt to hurt, humiliate, force anything on anyone, or prevent them from doing anything, any more than someone pretending to be something they are not is intended to hurt, humiliate, force anything on others, or prevent anyone from doing anything. Exercising your right to free speech is not an attempt to change anyone's mind either. If one person is free to identify as a pink unicorn, others are free to play along with the fantasy or not.


So, essentially, you would go out of your way to try and make somebody feel uncomfortable. If it makes you somehow better to do that, I accept you feel it is somehow right but you also just explained why my friend is continually bullied by people like yourself, 'exercising their right to free speech' by trying to 'out' her.


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

This is where slowing down while reading helps. I was so confused for a couple seconds why a detransition dairy wasn't in the post.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

wr said:


> So, essentially, you would go out of your way to try and make somebody feel uncomfortable. If it makes you somehow better to do that, I accept you feel it is somehow right but you also just explained why my friend is continually bullied by people like yourself, 'exercising their right to free speech' by trying to 'out' her.


No. I would go out of my way to exercise my right to free speech, to be honest, and to accept reality for what it truly is. Nothing about that is harmful to anyone, and there is no bullying or outing involved. Others are free to feel and respond however they choose to. 'My body my choice', free speech, and the right to pretend or not, applies to everyone equally.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

CC Pereira said:


> No. I would go out of my way to exercise my right to free speech, to be honest, and to accept reality for what it truly is. Nothing about that is harmful to anyone, and there is no bullying or outing involved. Others are free to feel and respond however they choose to. 'My body my choice', free speech, and the right to pretend or not, applies to everyone equally.


But how do you prove which people will benefit of your ‘free speech’?

Will you humiliate them by demanding a strip search so you can peek at their genitals or just call them because they look like they must be transgendered?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

CC Pereira said:


> No. I would go out of my way to exercise my right to free speech, to be honest, and to accept reality for what it truly is. Nothing about that is harmful to anyone, and there is no bullying or outing involved. Others are free to feel and respond however they choose to. 'My body my choice', free speech, and the right to pretend or not, applies to everyone equally.


You would say something to a woman you think is being a bit too masculine? 
You would say something to a man wearing female clothing? 

There is a broad line between free speech and speaking out just to make yourself heard.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CC Pereira said:


> No. I would go out of my way to exercise my right to free speech, to be honest, and to accept reality for what it truly is. Nothing about that is harmful to anyone, and there is no bullying or outing involved. Others are free to feel and respond however they choose to. 'My body my choice', free speech, and the right to pretend or not, applies to everyone equally.


You believe it is pretending. It is someone else's reality whether you can grasp that or not. If you came across as callous and cruel as you posts do about transgenderism, your discussion with them would help no one.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

CC Pereira said:


> I have a related quick question for others here: if you have a friend or family member who pretends to be a gender other than the gender they were born as, do you feel obligated to go along with their fantasy? I wouldn't, but am curious how others feel about this.


There is a person in our family that had transitioned and that includes a name change, Of course everyone in the family calls them by their new name, and introduces them as their new gender, (My niece, my daughter, my sister)


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

wr said:


> But how do you prove which people will benefit of your ‘free speech’?
> 
> Will you humiliate them by demanding a strip search so you can peek at their genitals or just call them because they look like they must be transgendered?


No need to prove anything. Free speech applies to everyone equally, regardless of their differences.

No strip search necessary. I treat everyone equally, although occasionally the use of pronouns (he / she) are necessary. If someone looks like a female, I would use the 'she' pronoun for that person if need be, unless that person informs me that the person is a male ... in which case I would change my use of 'she' to 'he'. If I find out later that the person was actually born a female, that pronoun goes back to 'she'. The same would apply to a male pretending to be a female. Either way, I prefer to refer to people by name if I know it. Free speech doesn't mean everyone has to like what others say. Pretending to be something one is not also does not mean everyone else is required to play along with the fantasy. Freedom applies to everyone equally.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

Danaus29 said:


> You would say something to a woman you think is being a bit too masculine?
> You would say something to a man wearing female clothing?
> 
> There is a broad line between free speech and speaking out just to make yourself heard.


No. I care more about how people act than how they look. I would not go out of my way to point out someone's masculinity or femininity, or to make fun of their clothing. All I have been trying to say, is that free speech applies to everyone equally, so although any female is free to say that she is a male when really she is a female or vise versa, others are also free to say otherwise if they know that isn't true. The freedom to pretend or not also applies to everyone equally, so although anyone is free to pretend to be something they are not, others are also free to pretend with them or not. None of that is harmful to anyone.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

CC Pereira said:


> No need to prove anything. Free speech applies to everyone equally, regardless of their differences.
> 
> No strip search necessary. I treat everyone equally, although occasionally the use of pronouns (he / she) are necessary. If someone looks like a female, I would use the 'she' pronoun for that person if need be, unless that person informs me that the person is a male ... in which case I would change my use of 'she' to 'he'. If I find out later that the person was actually born a female, that pronoun goes back to 'she'. The same would apply to a male pretending to be a female. Either way, I prefer to refer to people by name if I know it. Free speech doesn't mean everyone has to like what others say. Pretending to be something one is not also does not mean everyone else is required to play along with the fantasy. Freedom applies to everyone equally.


So you would be one of those people deliberately humiliating my friend just because you feel it meets your criteria.

The thing that totally amuses me is that you would quickly and readily accept my transgendered friend because she looks exactly like an attractive woman and blends in perfectly 😂


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> You believe it is pretending. It is someone else's reality whether you can grasp that or not. If you came across as callous and cruel as you posts do about transgenderism, your discussion with them would help no one.


If a person is born into the body of a male, that person is a male -- that is just a biological fact. If a person is born into the body of a female, that person is a female -- again, a biological fact. To say, appear, and try to act otherwise, is to pretend. If someone else is on drugs that causes them hallucinate, and their hallucination causes them to see a giant purple fly where there is no fly, let alone a giant purple fly ... well everyone else doesn't see the giant purple fly, only the one hallucinating does ... and there is no requirement (nor should there be) for everyone else to pretend that they too, see a giant purple fly. Being honest is not harmful, callous, or cruel. Being dishonest OTOH, can be.

An apple is an apple, no matter how many times anyone says otherwise. You can paint the apple to look like an orange, and you can cut the skin off an orange to cover the apple, but the apple is still an apple. To pretend otherwise is dishonest.

I am a human. If I try to look, act, and convince others that I am not a human, I am pretending. Just an observable biological fact.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

CC Pereira said:


> If a person is born into the body of a male, that person is a male -- that is just a biological fact. If a person is born into the body of a female, that person is a female -- again, a biological fact. To say, appear, and try to act otherwise, is to pretend. If someone else is on drugs that causes them hallucinate, and their hallucination causes them to see a giant purple fly where there is no fly, let alone a giant purple fly ... well everyone else doesn't see the giant purple fly, only the one hallucinating does ... and there is no requirement (nor should there be) for everyone else to pretend that they too, see a giant purple fly. Being honest is not harmful, callous, or cruel. Being dishonest OTOH, can be.
> 
> An apple is an apple, no matter how many times anyone says otherwise. You can paint the apple to look like an orange, and you can cut the skin off an orange to cover the apple, but the apple is still an apple. To pretend otherwise is dishonest.
> 
> I am a human. If I try to look, act, and convince others that I am not a human, I am pretending. Just an observable biological fact.


Biological sex and gender are not the same thing. You are not allowed to look in someone's pants to determine what you think they should be called. Your posts are constant put downs of those that know their biological sex and their gender are different.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

wr said:


> So you would be one of those people deliberately humiliating my friend just because you feel it meets your criteria.


Uh, no. I would not deliberately humiliate anyone. I just choose not to participate in other people's fantasies. My criteria would simply be equal treatment (such as equal rights to free speech and pretending or not), not special treatment (such as free speech for trans people but not for other people and freedom for trans people to pretend but not others to not pretend).



wr said:


> The thing that totally amuses me is that you would quickly and readily accept my transgendered friend because she looks exactly like an attractive woman and blends in perfectly 😂


In such a case, I would not know that your friend is actually a male, so I would treat him as a woman. The subject of his gender would likely never come up.


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## CC Pereira (9 mo ago)

painterswife said:


> Biological sex and gender are not the same thing. You are not allowed to look in someone's pants to determine what you think they should be called. Your posts are constant put downs of those that know their biological sex and their gender are different.


Sex (if not the act of sex) is defined as 'Either of the two divisions, designated female and male, by which most organisms are classified on the basis of their reproductive organs and functions.'

Gender is defined as 'Either of the two divisions, designated female and male, by which most organisms are classified on the basis of their reproductive organs and functions; sex.'

Yep. Same thing.

I don't want to look in anyone's pants to determine anything. I can just call it as I see it until I know it. I prefer to call people by name if possible, but I don't know everyone's name. Being honest doesn't hurt anyone, and I have not been putting anyone down. Actually, I have been advocating for the equal treatment for everyone. Nothing wrong with that.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I know someone who is transitioning and no, I didn't seek them out. Most people don't know s/he is anything other than what s/he presents themselves as. 

I don't think it is any different than a rich person wearing old, raggy clothes or a poor person always wearing business suits. I'm not their doctor or their lover. They dress how they want and I'll dress how I want. They don't lecture me on my presentation and I don't say anything about theirs.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> I know someone who is transitioning and no, I didn't seek them out. Most people don't know s/he is anything other than what s/he presents themselves as.
> 
> I don't think it is any different than a rich person wearing old, raggy clothes or a poor person always wearing business suits. I'm not their doctor or their lover. They dress how they want and I'll dress how I want. They don't lecture me on my presentation and I don't say anything about theirs.


What I was saying that I think (all my opinion, of course) that the number of people who actually were born in the wrong gendered body (and not just feel as if their body is wrong - the difference is important here) is so vanishingly small that you probably wouldn't know anyone who was without seeking them out. I know there is a lot of "I'm trans" going on today, and (IMHO) most of it is people with other issues who are being convinced by their peer groups/social media that they feel wrong in their bodies because they are the wrong gender, not because of those other issues.

I'm not saying that it's not possible for true trans people to exist. I'm just highly doubting the (statistically) enormous numbers we're seeing today, especially knowing that other factors can make someone uncomfortable enough in their own bodies to question everything. And I hate that those people (who are already vulnerable) are being shoved into a box that's full of hormone therapy and surgery instead of a box full of therapy. Or even a box full of clothes that don't make you male or female, they're just clothes, but if clothes make you feel male/female, go for it. Just don't irreversibly alter yourself and cause lifelong physical problems before you are absolutely, positively sure you've looked under every rock for the source of your discomfort, or you're just compounding the problem. 

That's all I'm saying, as someone who comes from an extended family that is rotten with BDD and dealt with it in my own child. The long term consequences of jumping to conclusions are getting more and more serious and damaging.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Mish said:


> I'm not saying that it's not possible for true trans people to exist. I'm just highly doubting the (statistically) enormous numbers we're seeing today, especially knowing that other factors can make someone uncomfortable enough in their own bodies to question everything.


Consider the number of pro abortion advocates who will use extremely rare and isolated instances ie headless baby to continue a procedure that is overwhelming of convenience.
Styles, fads, trends, diets, and behaviors, etc rise and fall within their culture.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Mish said:


> What I was saying that I think (all my opinion, of course) that the number of people who actually were born in the wrong gendered body (and not just feel as if their body is wrong - the difference is important here) is so vanishingly small that you probably wouldn't know anyone who was without seeking them out. I know there is a lot of "I'm trans" going on today, and (IMHO) most of it is people with other issues who are being convinced by their peer groups/social media that they feel wrong in their bodies because they are the wrong gender, not because of those other issues.
> 
> I'm not saying that it's not possible for true trans people to exist. I'm just highly doubting the (statistically) enormous numbers we're seeing today, especially knowing that other factors can make someone uncomfortable enough in their own bodies to question everything. And I hate that those people (who are already vulnerable) are being shoved into a box that's full of hormone therapy and surgery instead of a box full of therapy. Or even a box full of clothes that don't make you male or female, they're just clothes, but if clothes make you feel male/female, go for it. Just don't irreversibly alter yourself and cause lifelong physical problems before you are absolutely, positively sure you've looked under every rock for the source of your discomfort, or you're just compounding the problem.
> 
> That's all I'm saying, as someone who comes from an extended family that is rotten with BDD and dealt with it in my own child. The long term consequences of jumping to conclusions are getting more and more serious and damaging.


I agree that the number of truly trans people is quite small. I think the only reason there is such a big interest in it now is because it is headline news and the "in" thing. Even disco was popular, for a while. The saddest thing is that a lot of these people will end up permanently damaged because of a fad.

People who feel they are in the wrong gender body really should have good mental health counseling before making permanent changes.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

painterswife said:


> Biological sex and gender are not the same thing. You are not allowed to look in someone's pants to determine what you think they should be called. Your posts are constant put downs of those that know their biological sex and their gender are different.


Biological Sex and Gender are most certainly the same thing.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> Biological Sex and Gender are most certainly the same thing.


They are not. Sex is biological and gender is socially constructed and cultural. I now understand why so many don't understand what being transgender really is.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

They are two sides of the same coin. Making stuff up and selling it as something different is ok if that is what one wants to do, but it doesn't mean everyone else has to play along.
Maybe educating oneself on the root origins of the words might direct you to use another descriptive.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Not knowing that gender is a social construct and not biological sex is the root of the problem with those that do not understand those that are transgender.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

painterswife said:


> They are not. Sex is biological and gender is socially constructed and cultural. I now understand why so many don't understand what being transgender really is.


They “are” the same. 
While there may be millions of misguided people who are not grounded in reality, the vast majority of the rest of us are ,and we refuse to play along with your delusions.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

painterswife said:


> Not knowing that gender is a social construct and not biological sex is the root of the problem with those that do not understand those that are transgender.


🙄


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)




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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)




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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Not knowing that gender is a social construct and not biological sex is the root of the problem with those that do not understand those that are transgender.


Here it comes as is SOP:

short demo of what I speak


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)




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## tripletmom (Feb 4, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Biological sex and gender are not the same thing. You are not allowed to look in someone's pants to determine what you think they should be called. Your posts are constant put downs of those that know their biological sex and their gender are different.


How does one know which is which??


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