# Christopher Hitchens has died



## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

One of the most famous atheist writers and speakers, Christopher Hitchens, has died after a long battle with cancer. Let the deathbed conversion stories begin.:cowboy:


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Now he knows he was wrong.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

I would ask if you can prove either that HE knows he was wrong or that YOU know that he was wrong, but I already know you can't prove either of them.:nana:


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

I am still waiting on someone who knows for sure if he was wrong or not.
I am not in any hurry to prove either way but haven't seen anyone prove it yet.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Last words in this life; God does not exist.

First words in next life: Oh my God!


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

tinknal: I would have guessed "OOPS".


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

pancho said:


> I am still waiting on someone who knows for sure if he was wrong or not.
> I am not in any hurry to prove either way but haven't seen anyone prove it yet.


Then it seems a bit presumptuous of anybody to claim either way, doesn't it?:nono:


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

tinknal said:


> Last words in this life; God does not exist.
> 
> First words in next life: Oh my God!


I'd say his first words in his next life are just as likely to be: "The Flying Spaghetti Monster?? Really???" :hysterical:


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Do I make fun of your over-punctuation? Please don't make fun of my God.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Who's making fun of any gods??????? And what over-punctuation???????:nanner:


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

One of the leaders of the athiest religion seeking to impose his belief system on the country.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Do I make fun of your over-punctuation? Please don't make fun of my God.


Yeah, what he said. Why are people so concerned that some of us choose to believe?


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Sonshine said:


> Yeah, what he said. Why are people so concerned that some of us choose to believe?


Perhaps because so many are so concerned that some of us choose not to believe.


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## DanielY (Aug 25, 2011)

I for one am a believer. But the God I know also wrote a book that I have read a couple of times. Yes read like it is actually a book from cover to cover. And somewhere in there He made it pretty clear that He decided to let everyone choose for themselves. If that is how He wants it, then I suppose it best be alright with me. I sort of got the idea that everyone including Christopher Hitchens is very precious to him. My sorrow to all that knew him, knew of him, and since a loss at his passing. The results of his beliefs are between him and a God. If he was correct he has little to worry about. And no ability to worry anyway.


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

DanielY said:


> I for one am a believer. But the God I know also wrote a book that I have read a couple of times. Yes read like it is actually a book from cover to cover. And somewhere in there He made it pretty clear that He decided to let everyone choose for themselves. If that is how He wants it, then I suppose it best be alright with me. I sort of got the idea that everyone including Christopher Hitchens is very precious to him. My sorrow to all that knew him, knew of him, and since a loss at his passing. The results of his beliefs are between him and a God. If he was correct he has little to worry about. And no ability to worry anyway.


Agree.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

DanielY said:


> But the God I know also wrote a book that I have read a couple of times.


Thank you for your beliefs and the way you are as a person. Christanity and all other religions would have a much better image if all felt like you.
Trouble is many believe part of what you believe and none of the rest.
God did not write a book, man did. That is the part many christians forget.


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

pancho said:


> Thank you for your beliefs and the way you are as a person. Christanity and all other religions would have a much better image if all felt like you.
> Trouble is many believe part of what you believe and none of the rest.
> *God did not write a book, man did*. That is the part many christians forget.


Man wrote the words. God gave them the words to write.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

pancho said:


> Thank you for your beliefs and the way you are as a person. Christanity and all other religions would have a much better image if all felt like you.
> *Trouble is many believe part of what you believe and none of the rest.*
> God did not write a book, man did. That is the part many christians forget.


It's only "trouble" for those directly involved. No one else should worry about it.

As I always say, that's between them and their God.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

farmmom said:


> Man wrote the words. God gave them the words to write.


Guess you will just have to take mans word for that.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

EasyDay said:


> It's only "trouble" for those directly involved. No one else should worry about it.
> 
> As I always say, that's between them and their God.


Many times others try to not be involved but they are forced to become involved by those who can't keep it between them and their god.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

pancho said:


> Many times others try to not be involved but they are forced to become involved by those who can't keep it between them and their god.


This. And it becomes very tiresome.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

EasyDay said:


> It's only "trouble" for those directly involved. No one else should worry about it.
> 
> As I always say, that's between them and their God.


Yes it is, until they start passing laws requiring everybody else to kowtow to their invisible gods. When people start doing that in a country like the US, then THEIR religion becomes everybody's problem. :soap:


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## Home Harvest (Oct 10, 2006)

Well, as far as the atheist dying, all I can think to say is...

*The Worms Crawl In, The Worms Crawl Out (AKA The Hearse Song)*

The Worms Crawl In,
The Worms Crawl Out,
Into your stomach,
And out your mouth.

They eat your intestines,
They scramble your heart.
Now you feel like
You&#8217;re all apart.

This is how
It is to die
You end up looking
Like apple pie!

Edit: I guess this children's song holds true for everyone regardless of religious persuasion. Our bodies don't live on, even if our souls do.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

poppy said:


> Now he knows he was wrong.


Ya really. No wander I had never heard of him. LOL


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## Home Harvest (Oct 10, 2006)

pancho said:


> Many times others try to not be involved but they are forced to become involved by those who can't keep it between them and their god.


Well said. I well remember being affronted in a college cafeteria by a born again christian who dove into a monologue without bothering to ask my beliefs. As a christian I was irritated by this person and quickly lost my patience. I can only wonder what luck he had convincing those who didn't actually share his beliefs.

Personally, I find religion in a seedling in the woods, a newborn baby (any species), the beauty of an evening sky, a majestic canadian hemlock in the woods, a trout sipping midges in an early spring creek. As much trouble as some may have believing that there IS a God, I simply can't make myself believe that there ISN'T one. I don't NEED anyone else to believe me, it's very personal to me. I can't wait to meet the one who created all this. I have so many questions. Like, what's the platypus all about?


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

FourDeuce said:


> Yes it is, until they start passing laws requiring everybody else to kowtow to their invisible gods. When people start doing that in a country like the US, then THEIR religion becomes everybody's problem. :soap:


Go after the politicians that are pushing the laws. You know, "separation of church and state", and all that. 

Not EVERY Christian is pushing ANY laws on you. Like y'all say about muslims, "there are only a few radicals"... or does that only apply to muslims? Hypocrites. 

Here's a little surprise for ya... Christianity, in and of itself, is NOT a religion. Baptist, Catholic, etc... are religions. So, you're not even certain of whom you hate. But, that won't stop you from swarming like hyenas when someone says the word "Christian". 

BOO! :hysterical:


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

EasyDay said:


> Go after the politicians that are pushing the laws. You know, "separation of church and state", and all that.
> 
> Not EVERY Christian is pushing ANY laws on you. Like y'all say about muslims, "there are only a few radicals"... or does that only apply to muslims? Hypocrites.
> 
> ...


It isn't a case of hating anyone. It is a case of believing different.
People who don't believe in religion of any kind will consider christanity , baptist, and catholic the same thing. Like the old saying about a duck.
There are radicals in all religions and even in those who do not believe in religions.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Atheism a religion. In fact, it's one that is constantly trying to force THEIR beliefs on towns across the country!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

EasyDay said:


> Atheism a religion. In fact, it's one that is constantly trying to force THEIR beliefs on towns across the country!


Atheism is more of a belief than a religion. I know, just like I said above about the duck.

There is two sides to that statement. Some atheist may well be trying to force their beliefs on towns across the country. Hard to think how anyone could force a person not to believe in their religion.
It is easier to believe an atheist would rather not have some religion forced on them.
Some religions think saying a prayer before some sports game isn't forcing their religion on anyone. An atheist might look at it different.

One thing I have never understood. After a house fire a homeowner can sometimes be seen on TV saying god saved them from the burning house.
Another can be seen saying god saved them when a tornado destroyed their home. Seems like for any disaster there are those who say god saved them from death.
My question is why did god decided to burn down the house in the first place, when did god let that tornado destroy the house in the first place, why did god let that disaster happen in the first place. It would seem like if he was that worried about the person he wouldn't have gone to all of the trouble to let them get in that shape to begin with.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

I couldn't remember who this was had to look him up.. What is the great interest everyone dies? As to him being an atheist, he made some money off of it as it increased his notoriety, what he did or didn't believe who knows.. 

It is a bit hard for me not to have belief in a greater power, all it takes is looking around.. There is just to much in nature not to think there is more to it than just some accident.. Not a Christian but don't have a problem with anyone's belief's that is as personal a choice as there is... Just my 2 cents.


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## Fonzie (Nov 5, 2003)

FourDeuce, 
I suppose you've read "God Is Not Great" by Hitchens.
I could not put that book down. I highly recommend it !

.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

pancho said:


> Atheism is more of a belief than a religion. I know, just like I said above about the duck.
> 
> There is two sides to that statement. Some atheist may well be trying to force their beliefs on towns across the country. Hard to think how anyone could force a person not to believe in their religion.
> It is easier to believe an atheist would rather not have some religion forced on them.
> ...


God isn't "worried" about anything, because He has already written the end. When he's ready to take you, he will. For people who have faith in Jesus, it isn't whether you live or die in the storm, but what's going to happen AFTER that.

We were hit by a tornado that destroyed much of our farm, and I was praying out loud while I was laying flat in the creek bed. Was it my prayers that saved me? I doubt it. In fact, my prayers weren't "let me live", but more "if I don't live through this, please accept me as I am". Maybe God was smirking, saying... "I hear your prayer, but it's not your time, yet."

I'm not a fan of organized religion at ALL because church leaders are as human as you and me. Many have truly done a disservice to the church that Jesus established... which consisted only of people, not buildings and bank accounts. (Did I already say that somewhere?) The Bible is the method to judge the church.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Home Harvest said:


> Personally, I find religion in a seedling in the woods, a newborn baby (any species), the beauty of an evening sky, a majestic canadian hemlock in the woods, a trout sipping midges in an early spring creek. As much trouble as some may have believing that there IS a God, I simply can't make myself believe that there ISN'T one. I don't NEED anyone else to believe me, it's very personal to me. I can't wait to meet the one who created all this. I have so many questions. Like, what's the platypus all about?


THIS^^^ (except I replace the word "religion" with "faith")

Every time I walk outside, I look around at all that's around me... woods, animals, the sky, sunsets and rises, food, etc... and say, "Thank you, Lord, for all of THIS!" 

In fact, after that tornado mentioned above, someone who has heard me say my thanks line, looked around at the devastation, smiled and said, "NOW what do you say when you walk outside?". I pointed to the things still standing (barn, animals, house with only 1/2 roof) and said, "I say, "Thank you Lord, for all of THIS!". He laughed. I meant it.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

EasyDay said:


> God isn't "worried" about anything, because He has already written the end. When he's ready to take you, he will. For people who have faith in Jesus, it isn't whether you live or die in the storm, but what's going to happen AFTER that.


I have heard that also.
One question I have. If he has already written the end why worry about anything? Just live your life any way you like and don't worry, prepare, or work. Just float along enjoying life because it is already written.
Another question. Why would he write an end so sad for some people? 
Why would he pick out certain people to be theifs, murderers, and rapist?

Why would you worry about what happens after the storm if it is already written?

Lots of things I don't understand. Might be the reason I am an unbeliever.
If I could ever understand I might not be one.


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

I believe he was an original thinker. I agreed with him on some stuff and not on (most) others but anyone who isn't lock step with the left or right I have to give a bit of respect to, even if I don't agree with their conclusions. It at least shows that he looked at things and decided on his own what his beliefs were.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Home Harvest said:


> I have so many questions. Like, what's the platypus all about?


I aint sure but it might have something to do with left over parts when He finished everything else?


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Ambereyes said:


> It is a bit hard for me not to have belief in a greater power, all it takes is looking around.. *There is just to much in nature not to think there is more to it than just some accident.*. Not a Christian but don't have a problem with anyone's belief's that is as personal a choice as there is... Just my 2 cents.


Ambereyes, if you like to read, try "The Case for a Creator", by Lee Strobel.

Strobel is a* former* atheist journalist who interviewed numerous scientists in hopes of proving that the idea of a Creator was irrelevant, outmoded. But, their answers (based on their work) supports the idea of Intelligent Design.

Read what the scientists have to say about cosmology, DNA, physics, cellular biology, human consciousness... their areas of expertise. 

AND it's written is such a way that you don't have to be a scientist to understand it.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

FourDeuce said:


> I would ask if you can prove either that HE knows he was wrong or that YOU know that he was wrong, but I already know you can't prove either of them.:nana:


While I agree I can present no proof to YOU, I happen to KNOW that he was wrong. I have witnessed the "proof" with my own eyes and ears, and it was quite convincing... even to this old skeptic..... Tis a shame I didnt have my camera with me.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

It sounds to me like this feller was one of those that prescribed to the theory of "when yer hot yer hot, and when yer not yer not".... if thats the case.... I'd hazard a guess that right about now..... he's hot!


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

> Some religions think saying a prayer before some sports game isn't forcing their religion on anyone. An atheist might look at it different.


I've never understood this.

For example...athiests liken the Bible and God to a fairytale. If I was at a function where the general poplulation worshipped Dr. Suesse and decided to read an exerpt of Cat in the Hat at the start, I wouldn't be insulted or even care because I don't believe that Dr. S. is true or even important. I would think it a strange custom and leave it at that. I wouldn't protest or try to convince others that Dr. S. is stupid, fiction, shouldn't be read, etc. Or, another example, should I be angry when a jewish person wishes me a happy Rosh Hashanah? No. I'd say thank you and wish it right back to them.

See what I mean? If athiests truely do not believe in God, why do they care so much if others do?

I think 'real' athiests don't care. It's the ones that are always prosthelytizing and forcing their beliefs on others, that are a vocal minority, that actually do believe in God but are angry at him for some reason. There was a local City Paper (i.e. progressive rag) that had a story, years ago, about a local athiest org that was doing a membership drive (yes, a membership drive, trying to 'convert'!) and interviewed the officers of the group. Each talked about what 'drove' them to athieism and each one, every single one, had a sad story, like the tragic and sudden death of a child or spouse. I don't think the reporter intended this, but it was quite obvious from the story that those people weren't non believers. They were just angry at God for something horrible that happened to them.

There are many or most athiests who truly don't believe in God, but the ones that are overly vocal (dost prostest too much) are fringe -- just like the religious nutjobs out there like Phelps and his crew.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

pancho said:


> I have heard that also.
> One question I have. If he has already written the end why worry about anything? Just live your life any way you like and don't worry, prepare, or work. Just float along enjoying life because it is already written.
> Another question. Why would he write an end so sad for some people?
> Why would he pick out certain people to be theifs, murderers, and rapist?
> ...


Free will. 
Just because HE knows the end, doesn't mean we do.
It would have been easy for Him to create a bunch of blind robots who were predestined to adore Him, but where's the joy in that? If people follow you by "force", their adoration doesn't have any value, does it?

He welcomes EVERYONE who welcomes Him. He won't force anyone, as I said. 

I don't worry about "after the storm". Because I can't NOT believe in God, I'm not afraid of dying. In fact, I'm looking forward to moving beyond what this planet and the current state of mankind has to offer. I'll let Him decide when, so in the meantime, I'll just keep running the race.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

FeralFemale said:


> I've never understood this.
> 
> For example...athiests liken the Bible and God to a fairytale. If I was at a function where the general poplulation worshipped Dr. Suesse and decided to read an exerpt of Cat in the Hat at the start, I wouldn't be insulted or even care because I don't believe that Dr. S. is true or even important. I would think it a strange custom and leave it at that. I wouldn't protest or try to convince others that Dr. S. is stupid, fiction, shouldn't be read, etc. Or, another example, should I be angry when a jewish person wishes me a happy Rosh Hashanah? No. I'd say thank you and wish it right back to them.
> 
> ...


Just my guess why an athesist might not enjoy a prayer said before a game etc, is they would feel the people was forcing their religion on them. No one should have any problem with a person saying a prayer. They might have a problem with a prayer interfering with their enjoyment of the game etc.
If a person is religious they can say a prayer to themselves. Their god should be able to hear them. Why make all other listen to them say their prayer.

I do agree that many atheists are just mad at god or, in my case, just can't understand religion. It is hard to believe why any god would punish a small child with death. It is hard to believe anything with that much power would allow so much hurt to go on in the world.

I can't understand how an athiest would let their non belief hurt other people like the Phelps crew. That makes less sense than religion.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

EasyDay said:


> Free will.
> Just because HE knows the end, doesn't mean we do.
> It would have been easy for Him to create a bunch of blind robots who were predestined to adore Him, but where's the joy in that? If people follow you by "force", their adoration doesn't have any value, does it?
> 
> ...


That still don't explain why he would pick so horrible a life for some people. Why would he make so many people hooked on drugs? Where is the joy in that?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

FeralFemale said:


> I've never understood this.
> 
> For example...athiests liken the Bible and God to a fairytale. If I was at a function where the general poplulation worshipped Dr. Suesse


Me??? I am not that big on Dr. Suess or other fairytales... which probably accounts for my absence at the ows functions and the democratic national convention.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

pancho said:


> That still don't explain why he would pick so horrible a life for some people. Why would he make so many people hooked on drugs? Where is the joy in that?


Ok, this ones pretty easy..... God doesnt pick those lives for those people...... they choose them for themselves.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

pancho said:


> They might have a problem with a prayer interfering with their enjoyment of the game etc.
> *
> They don't stop the game to pray. Where's the tolerance afforded to other religions?*
> 
> I do agree that many atheists are just mad at god or, in my case, just can't understand religion. It is hard to believe why any god would punish a small child with death. It is hard to believe anything with that much power would allow so much hurt to go on in the world.


What makes you connect death with punishment? Shouldn't quality of life matter? Especially for an innocent child. When a parent believes that the child is now in the arms of Jesus, how can that be a bad thing?

ETA: Both my kids were in marching band years ago. Before every half-time performance, the band stood in a circle and prayed. The band director always said that if one person objected, they'd change to a moment of silence. Not one, parent nor child, objected. Why should anyone in the audience object?


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

pancho said:


> That still don't explain why he would pick so horrible a life for some people. Why would he make so many people hooked on drugs? Where is the joy in that?


FREE WILL. He doesn't PICK people to be that way. THEY choose their own actions.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, this ones pretty easy..... God doesnt pick those lives for those people...... they choose them for themselves.


I thought it was already written. God already knew what would happen.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

EasyDay said:


> What makes you connect death with punishment? Shouldn't quality of life matter? Especially for an innocent child. When a parent believes that the child is now in the arms of Jesus, how can that be a bad thing?
> 
> ETA: Both my kids were in marching band years ago. Before every half-time performance, the band stood in a circle and prayed. The band director always said that if one person objected, they'd change to a moment of silence. Not one, parent nor child, objected. Why should anyone in the audience object?


Sorry, I never met a parent that wanted their child to die. That is the sort of thing I can't understand.

I was talking about the prayers before games etc when everyone is asked to stand for a prayer. In the case you speak of I can imagine if there was ever anyone who objected they would not be in the band much longer after they mentioned their objection. That has a way of silencing objections even if a person had one.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

I didn't know who this Hitchens fellow was, I had to look him up on internet to find out who he was. He had cancer of the esophagus and he insisted on calling himself an antitheist, not an atheist.

I'm sorry he had cancer but other than that his death and his beliefs about antitheism mean nothing to me. I don't care what he believed and his life and beliefs are none of my business, just as other people's lives and beliefs should have been none of his business.

Why do other people care? What is it that would make people be so presumptuous to think it's any of their business what other people believe? Shouldn't everyone be looking to the state of their own souls instead of interfering with the souls and beliefs of other people?

.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

naturelover said:


> Why do other people care? What is it that would make people be so presumptuous to think it's any of their business what other people believe? Shouldn't everyone be looking to the state of their own souls instead of interfering with the souls and beliefs of other people?
> 
> .


I can't speak for others but I think all people should be free to have their own beliefs and religions. It isn't any reason other people should make it their business what others believe. But that goes both ways. What would make people be so presumptuous to think it's any of their business if people choose not to believe.

Not everyone believes there is such a thing as a soul. That goes back to the original questions on religion.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

pancho said:


> Not everyone believes there is such a thing as a soul. That goes back to the original questions on religion.


True, not everyone believes in souls. Some people just take it on faith and some people have their own personal proof for themselves that they possess a soul. 

I think it may be that some people do have souls and some people do not have souls. Perhaps people who do not have souls are the ones who don't believe in a higher power because they don't have a soul to show them otherwise.

.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Home Harvest said:


> Personally, I find religion in a seedling in the woods, a newborn baby (any species), the beauty of an evening sky, a majestic canadian hemlock in the woods, a trout sipping midges in an early spring creek. As much trouble as some may have believing that there IS a God, I simply can't make myself believe that there ISN'T one. I don't NEED anyone else to believe me, it's very personal to me. I can't wait to meet the one who created all this. I have so many questions. Like, what's the platypus all about?


:clap:


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

pancho said:


> Sorry, I never met a parent that wanted their child to die. That is the sort of thing I can't understand.
> 
> *I can't imagine anyone "wanting" ANY loved one to die. But, there is comfort in knowing that the loved one is not suffering, and it's comforting to know I'll see them again in heaven. That's my belief. It allows me to feel a sense of peace in an otherwise painful situation. To each his own.*
> 
> I was talking about the prayers before games etc when everyone is asked to stand for a prayer. In the case you speak of I can imagine if there was ever anyone who objected they would not be in the band much longer after they mentioned their objection. That has a way of silencing objections even if a person had one.


No... absolutely not... as far as getting kicked out of band for objecting. He WOULD have changed it to a moment of silence without hesitation. No funny looks amongst parents, nor uncomfortable shuffling in their seats, at the meeting. In fact, the tradition began long before this band director took over. 

I'm not saying that everyone there believed in God, or the same God, but apparently no one saw any harm in it. It was a unity thing, a bonding of the circle. IOW, obviously no one was offended, even if they had different beliefs.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

naturelover said:


> True, not everyone believes in souls. Some people just take it on faith and some people have their own personal proof for themselves that they possess a soul.
> 
> I think it may be that some people do have souls and some people do not have souls. Perhaps people who do not have souls are the ones who don't believe in a higher power because they don't have a soul to show them otherwise.
> 
> .


Could be. That would explain a lot.
I will have to give that some thought.
Thanks


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

I enjoyed his writing. Gave you a lot to think about. Hitchens is dead. One of two things has happened. He has found out that he was wrong and there is a God or he will never know that he was right because after death there is nothing.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

pancho said:


> Could be. That would explain a lot.
> I will have to give that some thought.
> Thanks


Yes, something to think about, and it does explain a lot. Here is something interesting to read about walk-in souls, that is souls that come into the bodies of people who didn't have souls or who once had souls then lost them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walk-in

.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

pancho said:


> That still don't explain why he would pick so horrible a life for some people. Why would he make so many people hooked on drugs? Where is the joy in that?


Who did God force to be hooked on drugs? Did HE make them take that first dose? With few exceptions, such as health issues not related to lifestyle, we make our own destiny. I do not think God knows how we will turn out as individuals but He knows how mankind is. We have free will to decide whether or not to read His letter to us and try to do as He says because we know He is our Father and love Him or go our own way and pay the price later.


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Sleep well, sweet prince, let angels sing thee to thy rest.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

I thought God was soveriegn in his will?


Ephesians 1:3-12

New International Version (NIV)



Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[a] predestined us for adoption to sonship* through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will&#8212; 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God&#8217;s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[c] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment&#8212;to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. 
11 In him we were also chosen,[d] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.*


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

pancho said:


> I thought it was already written. God already knew what would happen.


There is no way I can hope to explain this to you. The most I can do is give you a concept to mull around in your mind.... maybe it will help you find your way. Nothing is "prewritten", that would be assuming "facts not in evidence", as in we assume that time exists, which it does not, every thing simply is... We think in terms of past present and future, because we cannot grasp the reality of His universe. to us, things appear to have a beginning and an end whereas in reality there is no beginning or end or even "now". By the time you can even think of when now is.... its already gone.... in our way of thinking anyway. Try it some time... grasp hold of an instant of time and try to figure out when it happens, the future is coming, but its never "now" until.... oops its gone, here it comes again... not here yet.... opps gone again! see what I mean? In our minds the past is gone, doesnt exist anymore, nor does the future, it doesnt exist yet, but when we try to pin down now... we soon discover that it is always in the past, or still in the future. None of them actually exist..... other than in our feeble minds. Things just are... no past, no future, no now, they just are. God see us as we are, and yes, He knows the choices we will make yesterday a thousand years from now,,, but WE DONT. We make our choices as we go along, quite unaware of the part we play in the big picture but that picture is there, whether we can see it or not. 

Got it now? Good for you..... no?!?! didnt think so, but waller it around a bit, It may come to you.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

pancho said:


> Thank you for your beliefs and the way you are as a person. Christanity and all other religions would have a much better image if all felt like you.
> Trouble is many believe part of what you believe and none of the rest.
> God did not write a book, man did. That is the part many christians forget.


If God did not tell them what to write, the Bible is full of a lot of coincidences. For example, how did all the writers over thousands of years know that when they wrote a prophecy concerning satan or his minions to give the time in months or moons (darkness) but prophecies concerning God's children must be given in days or years (light)? There was no scripture college to attend.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

"obviously no one was offended, even if they had different beliefs."

Just because nobody spoke up doesn't mean nobody was offended. Of course, whether anybody was offended or not is not really important, since people forcing their religious beliefs on other people is not a problem in America because it offends people. It's a problem because it offends the whole concept behind the country(as spelled out in the Constitution).
Americans are so used to things being done the way they are now they tend to forget that things weren't always done the way they are now. Looking back at early American history, you might conclude that slavery wasn't a problem since nobody(important) spoke up against it for hundreds of years, and later some people started speaking up against the practice, but it still took centuries before anything was really done about it.
In our country the rights of every American citizen are supposed to be equal. That doesn't mean it's ok to trample on some people's rights until they speak up. I understand many people think that "system" works fine, but the system of government we have is *supposed* to prevent that from happening.:nono:


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

poppy said:


> If God did not tell them what to write, the Bible is full of a lot of coincidences. For example, how did all the writers over thousands of years know that when they wrote a prophecy concerning satan or his minions to give the time in months or moons (darkness) but prophecies concerning God's children must be given in days or years (light)? There was no scripture college to attend.


Not a problem. They've had a few hundred years of editors to "fix" any problems.:whistlin:


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

FourDeuce said:


> Not a problem. They've had a few hundred years of editors to "fix" any problems.:whistlin:


Wrong. The masoretic text was written thousands of years ago and it locked in the text so no one could change it. It locked in each word and line. Also, how did those living thousands of years ago know the makeup and political views of the Middle East countries this far into the future? Could you or anyone else predict the political views of any country 3,000 years from now?


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

poppy said:


> Wrong. The masoretic text was written thousands of years ago and it locked in the text so no one could change it. It locked in each word and line.
> 
> *It didn't lock in what "books" were incorporated. That was done at various times in the past 2000 years or so, with some groups STILL not agreeing about which "books" are included and which are left out.*
> 
> Also, how did those living thousands of years ago know the makeup and political views of the Middle East countries this far into the future? Could you or anyone else predict the political views of any country 3,000 years from now?


*Which countries are those? Be specific when naming them, if you can, since their names might have changed during the last 3000 years(in which case you'd need to "adjust" something), and their "political views" have certainly changed. In fact, I doubt if many of the countries you would name even had the same name or political views they have today.*:stars:


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

pancho said:


> That still don't explain why he would pick so horrible a life for some people. Why would he make so many people hooked on drugs? Where is the joy in that?


My belief.

He doesn't! The lives people live are of their own free will. The one's who have a horrible life not by their own will are put there not by God but by the Prince of the Power of the Air - Satan.

The Bible clearly states that "The Thief (Satan) steals, kills and destroys, but I (Christ) came to give life and life more abundant."

At the time of creation, Adam was given dominion over the earth. When he sinned, he relinquished that rule to Satan. God wants what is best for us. He does not strike us dead, give us cancer, etc. Those are from Satan. God wants us healthy and living long lives to glorify Him and to bring others to Him. I do not believe now, nor will I ever believe that God is responsible for my husband's death.

Now, could God prevent things from happening? Yes. But, He would be interfering with free will, the laws of nature, etc. and He will not do that. He is a gentleman who forces Himself and His will on no one!

We live in a fallen world. Bad things happen anywhere people are separated from God. As far as drug addicts - God did not make the choice for them to take and become addicted to drugs. All it takes, is for someone to truly turn their hearts to God, follow His leading, live in His power, and all things start to fall into place.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

FourDeuce said:


> *Which countries are those? Be specific when naming them, if you can, since their names might have changed during the last 3000 years(in which case you'd need to "adjust" something), and their "political views" have certainly changed. In fact, I doubt if many of the countries you would name even had the same name or political views they have today.*:stars:


Though some names have changed, they are still similar enough that, along with geographical descriptions, it's not hard to figure out which countries they are today.

There's been town/cities that, due to lack of physical proof, archaeologists thought didn't exist.... and then they find proof that they were wrong. In fact, there has been no geographical detail that has been DISproven. Some haven't yet been proven, but none dis-proven.

And as we all know, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> There is no way I can hope to explain this to you. The most I can do is give you a concept to mull around in your mind.... maybe it will help you find your way. Nothing is "prewritten", that would be assuming "facts not in evidence", as in we assume that time exists, which it does not, every thing simply is... We think in terms of past present and future, because we cannot grasp the reality of His universe. to us, things appear to have a beginning and an end whereas in reality there is no beginning or end or even "now". By the time you can even think of when now is.... its already gone.... in our way of thinking anyway. Try it some time... grasp hold of an instant of time and try to figure out when it happens, the future is coming, but its never "now" until.... oops its gone, here it comes again... not here yet.... opps gone again! see what I mean? In our minds the past is gone, doesnt exist anymore, nor does the future, it doesnt exist yet, but when we try to pin down now... we soon discover that it is always in the past, or still in the future. None of them actually exist..... other than in our feeble minds. Things just are... no past, no future, no now, they just are. God see us as we are, and yes, He knows the choices we will make yesterday a thousand years from now,,, but WE DONT. We make our choices as we go along, quite unaware of the part we play in the big picture but that picture is there, whether we can see it or not.
> 
> Got it now? Good for you..... no?!?! didnt think so, but waller it around a bit, It may come to you.


Got it now? No, Sorry. Wish I could understand. It would make life so much easier. I am still learning and won't give up.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

poppy said:


> If God did not tell them what to write, the Bible is full of a lot of coincidences. For example, how did all the writers over thousands of years know that when they wrote a prophecy concerning satan or his minions to give the time in months or moons (darkness) but prophecies concerning God's children must be given in days or years (light)? There was no scripture college to attend.


Just from my observations there are coincidences in everything. It is all in the interperation. One person reads a paragraph and it means one thing. Another person reads the same paragraph and it mean a completely different thing. If you want to see coincidences you will, if you do not want to see coincidences you wont.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

FourDeuce said:


> "obviously no one was offended, even if they had different beliefs."
> 
> Just because nobody spoke up doesn't mean nobody was offended. Of course, whether anybody was offended or not is not really important, since people forcing their religious beliefs on other people is not a problem in America because it offends people. It's a problem because it offends the whole concept behind the country(as spelled out in the Constitution).
> Americans are so used to things being done the way they are now they tend to forget that things weren't always done the way they are now. Looking back at early American history, you might conclude that slavery wasn't a problem since nobody(important) spoke up against it for hundreds of years, and later some people started speaking up against the practice, but it still took centuries before anything was really done about it.
> In our country the rights of every American citizen are supposed to be equal. That doesn't mean it's ok to trample on some people's rights until they speak up. I understand many people think that "system" works fine, but the system of government we have is *supposed* to prevent that from happening.:nono:


Usually people think the system works fine when the system does what they want it to do. If suddenly the system does something they do not agree with everything changes.

I usually think everything is going great as long as people do what I want.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

FourDeuce said:


> *Which countries are those? Be specific when naming them, if you can, since their names might have changed during the last 3000 years(in which case you'd need to "adjust" something), and their "political views" have certainly changed. In fact, I doubt if many of the countries you would name even had the same name or political views they have today.*:stars:


Here's a decent explanation that identifies them .

http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/eschatology/ezekiel.htm


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

farmmom said:


> My belief.
> 
> He doesn't! The lives people live are of their own free will. The lives people live are of their own free will


Think about the above sentence for a few minutes.

"The lives people live are of their own free will"
That is easy to understand. The people do it themselves. I can understand that.

Then you say.
" The one's who have a horrible life not by their own will are put there not by God but by the Prince of the Power of the Air - Satan."
This is where I can't understand. Now you say it is satans fault.

That is an example of why I can't understand religion. It will state something in one sentence then say the opposite in the next sentence.

I can see why religion would be popular. You have something to thank for all of the good in your life and something to blame for all of the bad.
You can say one thing then say the opposite and expect people to agree and understand.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

pancho said:


> Just from my observations there are coincidences in everything. It is all in the interperation. One person reads a paragraph and it means one thing. Another person reads the same paragraph and it mean a completely different thing. If you want to see coincidences you will, if you do not want to see coincidences you wont.


To do so in the Bible is to ignore a LOT of coincidences. For example, when God said " I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone to all that concern themselves with it " has certainly come to pass and any of our Presidents since 1948 would certainly agree. Even the peace negotiators want to put it off until later and how many presidents have tried to get a peace agreement there? How did the prophet know to write this? A mortal man would just as likely have chosen Babylon or Damascus or some other city.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

EasyDay said:


> Though some names have changed, they are still similar enough that, along with geographical descriptions, it's not hard to figure out which countries they are today.


That is a problem.

The names are similar enough for a person looking for and wanting them to be similar. Another person reading the same names may say they are not the same or even similar.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

poppy said:


> Here's a decent explanation that identifies them .
> 
> http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/eschatology/ezekiel.htm


I read through the site.
One thing I noticed rather quickly.

Neither Russia, China, India, or Japan are mentioned in Scripture, but they are assumed to be a part of the prophetic Word because they are, today, the powers that be

Please read this again. Can you see why people would look at this sentence a different way than you would. Religious people think it is right to be able to change the names to anything they desire and anything that would fit in for today. If tomorrow changes they will then insert another name in and expect people to believe "it is written".
That is what I do like about the bible. People can change it to mean anything they desire and use that argument to say "it is written".

Do you understand how some people would think all that is written might not be the truth at all?


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

farmmom said:


> My belief.
> 
> He doesn't! The lives people live are of their own free will. The one's who have a horrible life not by their own will are put there not by God but by the Prince of the Power of the Air - Satan.
> 
> ...



How would you interprete these texts?

1.2 Samuel 24:1
[ David Enrolls the Fighting Men ] Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, âGo and take a census of Israel and Judah.â

2.1 Chronicles 21:1
[ David Counts the Fighting Men ] Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> For example...athiests liken the Bible and God to a fairytale. If I was at a function where the general poplulation worshipped Dr. Suesse and decided to read an exerpt of Cat in the Hat at the start, I wouldn't be insulted or even care because I don't believe that Dr. S. is true or even important. I would think it a strange custom and leave it at that. I wouldn't protest or try to convince others that Dr. S. is stupid, fiction, shouldn't be read, etc.


If Dr. Seuss were insisting that people like you don't deserve to live, you might sit up and take notice. :teehee:

I'm bisexual. The Bible says people who commit homosexual acts should be put to death. Just because Christians aren't enforcing that tenet at the moment, here in America (they're trying in Uganda!), doesn't mean they wouldn't if they thought they could get away with it! 

Can you see where people might have a problem with a religion whose holy book wants them dead? 

BTW, the above applies to Islam and the Koran, too.

The sooner we do away with these toxic faiths, the better, AFAIC!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

pancho said:


> Got it now? No, Sorry. Wish I could understand. It would make life so much easier. I am still learning and won't give up.


I was afraid I wouldnt be able to explain it... ya just about have to be there. Yer on the right track though... keeping an open mind and a desire to understand is key.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

willow_girl said:


> If Dr. Seuss were insisting that people like you don't deserve to live, you might sit up and take notice. :teehee:
> 
> I'm bisexual. The Bible says people who commit homosexual acts should be put to death. Just because Christians aren't enforcing that tenet at the moment, here in America (they're trying in Uganda!), doesn't mean they wouldn't if they thought they could get away with it!
> 
> ...


I will agree.

When anyone reads a book and it says to go against nature I naturally try to ignore that book and the people who live by it.

Homosexuality in animals other than man happens. That isn't new. 
Humans are animals. Some animals are gay. 
That seems pretty simple.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> I'm bisexual. The Bible says people who commit homosexual acts should be put to death. Just because Christians aren't enforcing that tenet at the moment, here in America (they're trying in Uganda!), doesn't mean they wouldn't if they thought they could get away with it!


No more likely than folks of your persuasion killing Christians if they thought they could get away with it. BTW, If I were you, I would stay out of Uganda. Doesn't sound like a good place to hang out.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

pancho said:


> I will agree.
> 
> When anyone reads a book and it says to go against nature I naturally try to ignore that book and the people who live by it.
> 
> ...


Nature is Chaotic. Look around.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

poppy said:


> To do so in the Bible is to ignore a LOT of coincidences. For example, when God said " I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone to all that concern themselves with it " has certainly come to pass and any of our Presidents since 1948 would certainly agree. Even the peace negotiators want to put it off until later and how many presidents have tried to get a peace agreement there? How did the prophet know to write this? A mortal man would just as likely have chosen Babylon or Damascus or some other city.


One important fact you seem to have missed is that even IF you could prove prophecy was true, that still doesn't prove any gods exist. All it proves is that prophecy exists. Until you prove any gods exist, working on proving all the other stories in your religion doesn't really make much difference.:cowboy::help:


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

EasyDay said:


> Though some names have changed, they are still similar enough that, along with geographical descriptions, it's not hard to figure out which countries they are today.
> 
> There's been town/cities that, due to lack of physical proof, archaeologists thought didn't exist.... and then they find proof that they were wrong. In fact, there has been no geographical detail that has been DISproven.
> 
> ...


*Right. I saw a movie recently which mentions a country called England and a city called London. I've been to London, England, so I know that city and country exist. That must mean EVERYTHING in that book is true until proven otherwise, right? Next time I go to England I want to go visit Hogwarts(which hasn't been disproven either) and meet Harry Potter(since he hasn't been disproven either).*


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## oth47 (Jan 11, 2008)

One simple fact I haven't seen mentioned..if a true Christian dies and there is no God,they haven't missed anything.If an atheist dies and there is a God,they've missed it all.


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

oth47 said:


> One simple fact I haven't seen mentioned..if a true Christian dies and there is no God,they haven't missed anything.If an atheist dies and there is a God,they've missed it all.


That is an argument I have heard so often!
My answer is-I have lived my life as best I can, being as kind and giving as I can, without thought of recompense. Will a merciful God punish me for merely not believing in him? Is God less merciful than I?
I am not worried.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

oth47 said:


> One simple fact I haven't seen mentioned..if a true Christian dies and there is no God,they haven't missed anything.If an atheist dies and there is a God,they've missed it all.


Not so fast. What if a Christian dies and the Jewish God as presented in the OT exists, and that Christian will spend eternity in hell for blasphemy??


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

postroad said:


> Not so fast. What if a Christian dies and the Jewish God as presented in the OT exists, and that Christian will spend eternity in hell for blasphemy??


What if the muslims are right and christians are wrong.


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## oth47 (Jan 11, 2008)

postroad said:


> Not so fast. What if a Christian dies and the Jewish God as presented in the OT exists, and that Christian will spend eternity in hell for blasphemy??


 If we have to live up to the tenets of the God of the Old Testament,we're all well and totally SOL


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> No more likely than folks of your persuasion killing Christians if they thought they could get away with it.


Why would I want to kill Christians?! I don't want to kill anyone! Heck, I don't even eat meat.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

oth47 said:


> If we have to live up to the tenets of the God of the Old Testament,we're all well and totally SOL


You betcha!!

Paul indicates that the Law was designed to be a curse to bring the Jewish folks into a state of unrighteousness deserving death.

Heavy concept considering they were the chosen ones. Misleading them into entering the Covenant and all.


Deuteronomy 30:10-16

New International Version (NIV)


10 if you obey the LORD your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 

The Offer of Life or Death
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, âWho will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?â 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, âWho will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?â 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it. 
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.


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## gryndlgoat (May 27, 2005)

oth47 said:


> One simple fact I haven't seen mentioned..if a true Christian dies and there is no God,they haven't missed anything.If an atheist dies and there is a God,they've missed it all.


But which god? Here's just a "short list" of Supreme Beings put forward as the "True God/Creator" ...You'd have to believe in all of them to be "sure" of salvation. If Coyote is actually "god" and you've bet on "Yahweh", then you're in the same boat as the atheist.

1. Akditi â mother of Gods (India)
2. Ahriman â son of Zuruam â all powerful (Persia)
3. Aibit and Alom-Bhol â creator of humans (Mayan)
4. Amon Re â king of Gods (Egypt)
5. Aten â God of sun â (Egypt)
6. Bochica â supreme creator and law giver (Chibcha, India)
7. Brahma â creator and absolute god (India)
8. Coyote âgod of creation (Crow Indian)
9. Dohit â god who created the first mortal from clay (Mosetene)
10. Gamid â supreme god living in heaven (Damarus, Africa)
11. Inti â supreme god / god of the sun (Inca, pre Columbian)
12. Jar-Sub â god of universe (Turkey)
13. Juck-Shilluck â creator of the world (Africa)
14. Kumani â virgin goddess (India)
15. Mahaskti â divine mother / supreme creator of the universe (India)
16. Num â supreme 1st. god, creator, lives in 7th heaven (Samoyed, Siberia)
17. Manibozho â god who created earth and mortals from clay (Algonquin Indians)
18. Marduk â supreme god / sun god (Babylon)
19. Maui â son of the sun (Polynesian)
20. Pachacamac â supreme god, creator of all (Yuncas, Lima, Peru)
21. Parica â god who flooded the earth (before Noah) (Peru)
22. Rado Gast â god of sun (Slav)
23. Tengri â god of sky (Mongol)
24. Anunnaki â sky god (Sumerian)
25. Ptar â creator god (Egypt)
26. Neteru â sky god (Egypt)
26. Hurakan â creator god (Mexico / Central America)
27. Yahweh â god of the Jews from the 6th century BC; also known as Elohim, Baalim, Adonai, Yhwh, Ieue, Jehovah (Jewish)
28. Allah â 5th century AD (Islam)


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

poppy said:


> Wrong. The masoretic text was written thousands of years ago and it locked in the text so no one could change it. It locked in each word and line. Also, how did those living thousands of years ago know the makeup and political views of the Middle East countries this far into the future? Could you or anyone else predict the political views of any country 3,000 years from now?


 Predicting that people would not be able to live together in peace was a pretty safe bet. The human heart has not changed much in 3000 years.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

gryndlgoat said:


> But which god? Here's just a "short list" of Supreme Beings put forward as the "True God/Creator" ...You'd have to believe in all of them to be "sure" of salvation. If Coyote is actually "god" and you've bet on "Yahweh", then you're in the same boat as the atheist.
> 
> 1. Akditi â mother of Gods (India)
> 2. Ahriman â son of Zuruam â all powerful (Persia)
> ...


 Just goes to show that no one really knows for sure. Just be kind to yourself and your fellow travelers in this world, and things will work out just fine. Arguing over a great invisible man in the sky, or whose god can beat up the others gods is a waste of time.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

gryndlgoat said:


> But which god? Here's just a "short list" of Supreme Beings put forward as the "True God/Creator" ...You'd have to believe in all of them to be "sure" of salvation. If Coyote is actually "god" and you've bet on "Yahweh", then you're in the same boat as the atheist.
> 
> 1. Akditi â mother of Gods (India)
> 2. Ahriman â son of Zuruam â all powerful (Persia)
> ...


After reading the list I think if there is a heaven there won't be nears as many there as some people think.


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

willow_girl said:


> Why would I want to kill Christians?! I don't want to kill anyone! Heck, I don't even eat meat.


Mmm...Meat!


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

greg273 said:


> Predicting that people would not be able to live together in peace was a pretty safe bet. The human heart has not changed much in 3000 years.


Robert Heinlein said it well-It doesn't pay a prophet to be too specific. :teehee:


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Mmm.. prophets!


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

willow_girl said:


> Why would I want to kill Christians?! I don't want to kill anyone! Heck, I don't even eat meat.


Heh, I'm sure you've heard of a fellow vegetarian who wouldn't hurt a fly...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism



> In his post-war reminiscence The Enigma of Hitler, Belgian SS General, and friend of Hitler's, LÃ©on Degrelle wrote: "He could not bear to eat meat, because it meant the death of a living creature. He refused to have so much as a rabbit or a trout sacrificed to provide his food. He would allow only eggs on his table, because egg-laying meant that the hen had been spared rather than killed."


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

oth47 said:


> One simple fact I haven't seen mentioned..if a true Christian dies and there is no God,they haven't missed anything.If an atheist dies and there is a God,they've missed it all.


Ah, yes, Pascal's Wager again. It's been around for hundreds of years and failed from the day it was dreamed up. 
Any person who believes because of that argument is lying to themself and trying to fool a god. That might make a god unhappy. Also, most people who believe in a creator god say their creator god gave created everything and gave them everything they have. If a god created you and gave you that brain, he might be a bit unhappy if you decided not to use it. It would seem to indicate that you knew better than he did when he gave you the brain, and some gods are known to be easy to anger(and you wouldn't like them when they're mad). eep:


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Hitch, are you satisfied?


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Ed Norman said:


> Heh, I'm sure you've heard of a fellow vegetarian who wouldn't hurt a fly...
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism


And I've heard of people who tortured and killed other people because they CLAIMED they wanted to save their souls(even if it meant torturing them in horrible ways).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Inquisition


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Tiempo said:


> Perhaps because so many are so concerned that some of us choose not to believe.


I have never mocked a person for what they choose to believe or not to believe. I just wish I was shown the same courtesy.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Atheism is more of a belief than a religion. I know, just like I said above about the duck.
> 
> There is two sides to that statement. Some atheist may well be trying to force their beliefs on towns across the country. Hard to think how anyone could force a person not to believe in their religion.
> It is easier to believe an atheist would rather not have some religion forced on them.
> ...


How does someone else praying at a ball game force those who choose not to pray to pray? Can those who don't believe just show respect to those who do? Same thing with a Nativity. It's a bunch of statues, so why do so many object to them being displayed? That's not forcing our beliefs on anyone, just trying to have the right to celebrate what we believe.

As for the disasters, having lost 2 of my precious children in a housefire I do believe I may have the right to answer that from my perspective. We live in an imperfect world because we live in a fallen state. BUT, as a Christian I believe the Bible when it says that Jesus came to give us life and give it more abundantly and that Satan is the one out to steal, kill and destroy. So although God allows some things to happen, I don't believe He is the cause of those things, in fact, without the strength I have gotten from my own relationship with Jesus I would not be alive today, but would have taken my own life when I lost my kids.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

EasyDay said:


> Ambereyes, if you like to read, try "The Case for a Creator", by Lee Strobel.
> 
> Strobel is a* former* atheist journalist who interviewed numerous scientists in hopes of proving that the idea of a Creator was irrelevant, outmoded. But, their answers (based on their work) supports the idea of Intelligent Design.
> 
> ...


I second the suggestion to read some of Lee Strobel's writings.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

FourDeuce said:


> And I've heard of people who tortured and killed other people because they CLAIMED they wanted to save their souls(even if it meant torturing them in horrible ways).
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Inquisition


Pikers. Inefficient amateurs.



> GarcÃ­a CÃ¡rcel estimates that the total number processed by the Inquisition throughout its history was approximately 150,000; applying the percentages of executions that appeared in the trials of 1560â1700 â about 2% â the approximate total would be about 3,000 put to death. Nevertheless, very probably this total should be raised keeping in mind the data provided by Dedieu and GarcÃ­a CÃ¡rcel for the tribunals of Toledo and Valencia, respectively. It is likely that the total would be between 3,000 and 5,000 executed.


Hitler could do 3-5000 executions on a Sunday afternoon while digesting his carrots and tofu. He topped 6 million dead in about 6 years. That's an average of 2739 poor souls being killed a day. The Catholics you cited skipped meat on Fridays, but to be truly evil, they would have to skip it completely, like Hitler.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Just my guess why an athesist might not enjoy a prayer said before a game etc, is they would feel the people was forcing their religion on them. No one should have any problem with a person saying a prayer. They might have a problem with a prayer interfering with their enjoyment of the game etc.
> If a person is religious they can say a prayer to themselves. Their god should be able to hear them. Why make all other listen to them say their prayer.
> 
> I do agree that many atheists are just mad at god or, in my case, just can't understand religion. It is hard to believe why any god would punish a small child with death. It is hard to believe anything with that much power would allow so much hurt to go on in the world.
> ...


As a Christian, I don't consider death a punishment since children would go to Heaven.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> That still don't explain why he would pick so horrible a life for some people. Why would he make so many people hooked on drugs? Where is the joy in that?


People make the choice about taking drugs, how does make God responsible for their actions?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> I thought it was already written. God already knew what would happen.


God does already know the decisions we'll make. There are times I know my son will do certain things, yet I allow him to do them as a learning experience.
I can't protect my son from everything in life, so I allow him to learn in a rather safe environment.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

naturelover said:


> I didn't know who this Hitchens fellow was, I had to look him up on internet to find out who he was. He had cancer of the esophagus and he insisted on calling himself an antitheist, not an atheist.
> 
> I'm sorry he had cancer but other than that his death and his beliefs about antitheism mean nothing to me. I don't care what he believed and his life and beliefs are none of my business, just as other people's lives and beliefs should have been none of his business.
> 
> ...


I agree, but obviously, whoever wrote the original article thought it had relevence as did the original poster.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

willow_girl said:


> If Dr. Seuss were insisting that people like you don't deserve to live, you might sit up and take notice. :teehee:
> 
> I'm bisexual. The Bible says people who commit homosexual acts should be put to death. Just because Christians aren't enforcing that tenet at the moment, here in America (they're trying in Uganda!), doesn't mean they wouldn't if they thought they could get away with it!
> 
> ...


In every aspect of life there are rules or laws governing us. Why would you think the Bible wouldn't have the same. Could you imagine a world with no laws?


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Sonshine said:


> In every aspect of life there are rules or laws governing us. Why would you think the Bible wouldn't have the same. Could you imagine a world with no laws?


Atheists don't want a world(or even country) with no laws. That would be anarchists. Totally different group. As an atheist in the US, I just don't want to have ANY religious groups forcing their laws on the rest of us. 
If you want to live by your religion's laws, that's up to you and I don't have a problem with that. It's the people who feel they need to make THEIR religious laws apply to everybody(including people who don't believe in their religion) who are the problem. Anybody who thinks they should vote for laws for everybody based on their religion doesn't support FREEDOM(which is the reason the US was founded).
One example(among many) are Blue Laws. The county I live in recently changed from dry to wet, but it's illegal to buy liquor on Sunday. I think if it's legal to buy on the other 6 days, it should be legal to buy it on Sunday, too, even though I don't drink alchohol. Who do you think decided Sunday was a "special" day and required "special" treatment? That's not hard to figure out once you identify which group considers Sunday a special day.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> How does someone else praying at a ball game force those who choose not to pray to pray? Can those who don't believe just show respect to those who do? Same thing with a Nativity. It's a bunch of statues, so why do so many object to them being displayed? That's not forcing our beliefs on anyone, just trying to have the right to celebrate what we believe.
> 
> As for the disasters, having lost 2 of my precious children in a housefire I do believe I may have the right to answer that from my perspective. We live in an imperfect world because we live in a fallen state. BUT, as a Christian I believe the Bible when it says that Jesus came to give us life and give it more abundantly and that Satan is the one out to steal, kill and destroy. So although God allows some things to happen, I don't believe He is the cause of those things, in fact, without the strength I have gotten from my own relationship with Jesus I would not be alive today, but would have taken my own life when I lost my kids.


Why do people who choose to pray before a sporting event expect others to stand aside? Can't those who believe pray without disturbing others? Why is it necessary to pray outloud? Couldn't their god hear them any other way?

Others praying do not force others to pray. Wonder if those who pray really care at all about their fellow men?

Don't know about the navity scenes. They do not bother me at all.

Again, it must be nice to be able to blame something for all the bad things that happen in life and thank something else for all things good. Much like a crutch. 

People choose what parts of the bible they want to believe and reject those parts they do not like. If I was a believer I think I would believe all of the book, not pick and choose which parts I like.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> As a Christian, I don't consider death a punishment since children would go to Heaven.


You may not consider it a punishment but others might disagree. Very few people gladly die. Most try to live as long as possible. The hospitals are full of such people. If death was such a pleasure to christians why do we see so many trying in every way to live another day?

I believe the ultimate punishment is death. The law must agree also.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

FourDeuce said:


> Atheists don't want a world(or even country) with no laws. That would be anarchists. Totally different group. As an atheist in the US, I just don't want to have ANY religious groups forcing their laws on the rest of us.
> If you want to live by your religion's laws, that's up to you and I don't have a problem with that. It's the people who feel they need to make THEIR religious laws apply to everybody(including people who don't believe in their religion) who are the problem. Anybody who thinks they should vote for laws for everybody based on their religion doesn't support FREEDOM(which is the reason the US was founded).
> One example(among many) are Blue Laws. The county I live in recently changed from dry to wet, but it's illegal to buy liquor on Sunday. I think if it's legal to buy on the other 6 days, it should be legal to buy it on Sunday, too, even though I don't drink alchohol. Who do you think decided Sunday was a "special" day and required "special" treatment? That's not hard to figure out once you identify which group considers Sunday a special day.


Actually, most of the laws in our country are also found in the Bible. Other than those laws I believe each person should have the right to live as they wish, but I also want the same opportunity. Instead I'm being told that people don't like it that prayers are said before ball games, yet no one is forcing anyone to pray, just to allow others the right to do so, same with the nativity. Why should it matter if a town wants to place a nativity at city hall, or a school wants to have a banner saying Merry Christmas? If you don't believe, then ignore it.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

FourDeuce said:


> Atheists don't want a world(or even country) with no laws. That would be anarchists. Totally different group. As an atheist in the US, I just don't want to have ANY religious groups forcing their laws on the rest of us.
> If you want to live by your religion's laws, that's up to you and I don't have a problem with that. It's the people who feel they need to make THEIR religious laws apply to everybody(including people who don't believe in their religion) who are the problem. Anybody who thinks they should vote for laws for everybody based on their religion doesn't support FREEDOM(which is the reason the US was founded).
> One example(among many) are Blue Laws. The county I live in recently changed from dry to wet, but it's illegal to buy liquor on Sunday. I think if it's legal to buy on the other 6 days, it should be legal to buy it on Sunday, too, even though I don't drink alchohol. Who do you think decided Sunday was a "special" day and required "special" treatment? That's not hard to figure out once you identify which group considers Sunday a special day.



Forgot to adress the Blue laws issue. Each town votes on issues like this. Majority of votes win, so evidently where you are the majority has decided to keep the blue laws.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> Why do people who choose to pray before a sporting event expect others to stand aside? Can't those who believe pray without disturbing others? Why is it necessary to pray outloud? Couldn't their god hear them any other way?
> 
> Others praying do not force others to pray. Wonder if those who pray really care at all about their fellow men?
> 
> ...


A prayer before a ball game usually only takes a couple of minutes. Some people enjoy corporate prayer. I just don't understand why others would think it was that big of a deal. If a person doesn't believe, then don't participate in it, but why does it have to be stopped for those who do believe. As for my faith being a crutch, I disagree. I don't think every thing that is bad is because of Satan. I take responsibility for many of the things that go wrong in my life, however, there are always things that we have no control over. Some would say it's fate, others would say it's Satan attacking them. What difference does it make to anyone what others believe? What I choose to believe has nothing to do with what anyone else chooses to believe, so why does it bother atheists so much? They are free to believe what they want to, no one is stopping them.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> You may not consider it a punishment but others might disagree. Very few people gladly die. Most try to live as long as possible. The hospitals are full of such people. If death was such a pleasure to christians why do we see so many trying in every way to live another day?
> 
> I believe the ultimate punishment is death. The law must agree also.


Again, what is it about what others believe that bothers you so much? To me, death is a part of life. I will actually be glad when my day comes to go home to be with the Lord. However, I don't like to suffer through pain. Maybe it's not so much death that people visit the hospitals to avoid, but to improve their health during the time they must remain here. A true Christian does not fear death, but living a life a physical pain is hard on anyone who experiences it.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Sonshine said:


> Actually, most of the laws in our country are also found in the Bible.
> 
> *And many of them were around long before YOUR book came along.*
> 
> ...


*See the US Constitution. It's explained in the 1st Amendment*.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Sonshine said:


> Forgot to adress the Blue laws issue. Each town votes on issues like this. Majority of votes win, so evidently where you are the majority has decided to keep the blue laws.


You might have heard of the Civil Rights struggle. The whole point of those decades of argument was that there are some rights which are not up for majority vote. If you happened to live in a place where the majority was different from you you might understand it a bit better. The United States was never intended to be a place where the majority ruled on every question. 
Even the majority should mind its own business sometimes.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> A prayer before a ball game usually only takes a couple of minutes. Some people enjoy corporate prayer. I just don't understand why others would think it was that big of a deal.


No, those who decide to force others to do something usually can't understand why those forced might not enjoy it.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> Again, what is it about what others believe that bothers you so much? To me, death is a part of life. I will actually be glad when my day comes to go home to be with the Lord. However, I don't like to suffer through pain. Maybe it's not so much death that people visit the hospitals to avoid, but to improve their health during the time they must remain here. A true Christian does not fear death, but living a life a physical pain is hard on anyone who experiences it.


I have never known a true christian and doubt there is such a thing.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

> same with the nativity. Why should it matter if a town wants to place a nativity at city hall, or a school wants to have a banner saying Merry Christmas?


Who is paying for them?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Tiempo said:


> Who is paying for them?


I'm not sure, but would imagine they were bought many years ago, which means that if it did come of of the tax payers dollars, that would no longer be the case. Having said that, there are many things my tax dollars go to that I don't agree with, I'm sure anyone could say the same thing.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> I have never known a true christian and doubt there is such a thing.


What would you consider a true Christian?


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## joshp (Aug 9, 2007)

RIP Christopher Hitchens.



Mrs. Josh


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

FourDeuce said:


> *See the US Constitution. It's explained in the 1st Amendment*.


I have read the Constitution and the 1st Amendment. I don't see where it denies a person to pray at a gathering.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

FourDeuce said:


> You might have heard of the Civil Rights struggle. The whole point of those decades of argument was that there are some rights which are not up for majority vote. If you happened to live in a place where the majority was different from you you might understand it a bit better. The United States was never intended to be a place where the majority ruled on every question.
> Even the majority should mind its own business sometimes.


Let's see, I live in the south and have a multi-racial family, guess that means that I do live in a place where the majority was different from me. However, I still believe that our system is set up that the majority rules and the Bible tells me to obey the laws of the land, unless they are opposed to God's laws. There are laws in our country that I disagree with, yet I still obey them. But the whole issue of praying before a ball game just seems a bit ridiculous to me. After all, our Congress prays before sessions, our Senate prays, ect, so why shouldn't we the people have the same rights as our elected officials?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

pancho said:


> No, those who decide to force others to do something usually can't understand why those forced might not enjoy it.


I think its pretty unlikely that anyone is forced to go to a ball game... any more than they are forced to go to church.... or to a local pub. One expects to have prayers in church... those who may be offended by such usually do not go. One expects to have a ball game opened with a prayer,,,, and often a pledge of allegiance or the singing of our national anthem.... if someone is offended by this.... dont go to the game.... pubs have long been associated with alcohol consumption and smoking.... if these things offend you... stay out of pubs. No body is forcing anyone to pray that I know of.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Sonshine said:


> Let's see, I live in the south and have a multi-racial family, guess that means that I do live in a place where the majority was different from me. However, I still believe that our system is set up that the majority rules and the Bible tells me to obey the laws of the land, unless they are opposed to God's laws. There are laws in our country that I disagree with, yet I still obey them. But the whole issue of praying before a ball game just seems a bit ridiculous to me. After all, our Congress prays before sessions, our Senate prays, ect, so why shouldn't we the people have the same rights as our elected officials?


allowing the majority to rule is what brings us injustice and things like lynch mobs. Thats why our founders set up a republic dedicated to the protection of everyones rights, even the minority, instead of a democracy.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> What would you consider a true Christian?


I would consider a person a true christian if they lived their life according to the instruction book.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Sonshine said:


> I have read the Constitution and the 1st Amendment. I don't see where it denies a person to pray at a gathering.


It doesnt deny the right to pray.... it ensures everyones right to pray at a gathering.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> But the whole issue of praying before a ball game just seems a bit ridiculous to me.


Of course you find it a bit ridiculous. I find it ridiculous also. We do agree on that. Maybe people would not find it so ridiculous if the people doing it could do their praying without disturbing others.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> But the whole issue of praying before a ball game just seems a bit ridiculous to me.


How about a group of people coming into your church during services and having a football game? Would that seem ridiculous?


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

pancho said:


> How about a group of people coming into your church during services and having a football game? Would that seem ridiculous?


It would probably keep some of the men awake!


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

I didn't agree with everything he wrote, he was a real Islam hater for one.

However he was thought provoking and loved to "stir the pot"

RIP


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

One of his better articles:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2007/02/the_war_within_islam.html


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Sonshine said:


> What would you consider a true Christian?


Here is the biblical description.


1 John 3:2-8

New International Version (NIV)


2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. 

4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devilâs work.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

postroad said:


> Here is the biblical description.
> 
> 
> 1 John 3:2-8
> ...


And no one is without sin, right? 

At least that's what I hear Christians say...so no one knows Christ and everyone is the Devil?

And the Son of God appeared to destroy the Devil's work ie sin? That doesn't seem to have worked out too well either :shrug:


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

postroad said:


> Here is the biblical description.
> 
> 
> 1 John 3:2-8
> ...


Guess I won't be meeting any true christians.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Sonshine said:


> I have read the Constitution and the 1st Amendment. I don't see where it denies a person to pray at a gathering.


I keep seeing that Straw Man brought up every time this subject is discussed. The reason it's a Straw Man is because nobody is being denied anything. Anybody who wants to pray can pray 24 hours a day if they want. What people are trying to do in this case is not pray but to be able to pray out loud and inflict their prayers on everybody around them(to pray like the hypocrites, as THEIR book says). Nobody CAN be denied the right to pray, but the act of forcing everybody around you to be silent and pretend to respect your prayer is not a right guaranteed anywhere.:umno:


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

FourDeuce said:


> I keep seeing that Straw Man brought up every time this subject is discussed. The reason it's a Straw Man is because nobody is being denied anything. Anybody who wants to pray can pray 24 hours a day if they want. What people are trying to do in this case is not pray but to be able to pray out loud and inflict their prayers on everybody around them(to pray like the hypocrites, as THEIR book says). Nobody CAN be denied the right to pray, but the act of forcing everybody around you to be silent and pretend to respect your prayer is not a right guaranteed anywhere.:umno:


I don't go to many ballgames, but the few I've been to I've never seen anyone being forced to be quiet, although IMO, to do so would show respect. I respect others beliefs and wouldn't dream of interfering with their ways of worship or displaying their own faith. Guess that what puzzles me. Why the intolerance?


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

FourDeuce said:


> Let the deathbed conversion stories begin.:cowboy:


The only way a deathbed conversion is going to start is if anyone who was present with him shortly before he died heard him say anything. I really doubt ANYONE is going to make up a story like that - unless they want a 2 day "I'm famous" stunt.

Regardless, only Christopher and God knows what his belief was when he died.

Now I wonder how long this thread will go before people become uncivil and it's closed?


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

This is the ramblings of a cold stricken brain, but why is it wrong to "force" belief in God on someone but it is NOT wrong to "force" abortion beliefs and gay marriage, etc.?

OK, off to the cough medicine. Carry on.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Michael W. Smith said:


> The only way a deathbed conversion is going to start is if anyone who was present with him shortly before he died heard him say anything. I really doubt ANYONE is going to make up a story like that - unless they want a 2 day "I'm famous" stunt.


The stories (most probably myths) of deathbed conversions are out there about many well known atheists who have died. Hitchens was very adamant that he would not have a deathbed conversion, and said not to believe the claims of anyone who said he did.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

beccachow said:


> This is the ramblings of a cold stricken brain, but why is it wrong to "force" belief in God on someone but it is NOT wrong to "force" abortion beliefs and gay marriage, etc.?
> 
> OK, off to the cough medicine. Carry on.


I think it would be very wrong of someone to force another to have an abortion or to marry a person of the same sex. 
However, if a woman chooses to have an abortion or chooses to marry another woman, how is that forcing anything on you?


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Lisa, the concept is the same, though . Talking to someone about Christianity or prayer in school which would have to be accepted by others is the same as forcing those who are against abortion to pay for it and accept it, etc.

I think I am having a hard time trying to explain how I see this comparison due to excessive icky-ness within my person at this time; I feel like I am typing through a mesh curtain, lol. I might save the GC and PC until I regain what little control of my faculties I ever had.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

FourDeuce said:


> Nobody CAN be denied the right to pray, but the act of forcing everybody around you to be silent and *pretend to respect your prayer* is not a right guaranteed anywhere.:umno:


The silence you're asked for is not to respect the prayer, but to respect others' RIGHT to prayer.

Like... if you don't want to stand up when the American flag leads a parade, don't... that's your right. And I respect your right by not jerking you up off your @$$ and tying you to a light pole to make SURE you're standing when the American flag passes. See how that works?


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Wow, and I guess a moment of silence for a fallen soldier is just a show, too, and a ploy for attention by the grieving family. Hmm, learn something new every day.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

beccachow said:


> Wow, and I guess a moment of silence for a fallen soldier is just a show, too, and a ploy for attention by the grieving family. Hmm, learn something new every day.


Yep. Just a poly for attention! Isn't that something? 
To some military folks, R&R means Rights and Responsibilities. To others, it means Rest & Relaxation. :shrug:


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

beccachow said:


> Wow, and I guess a moment of silence for a fallen soldier is just a show,
> 
> *Depends on what you mean by a moment of silence. If you mean a personal moment of silence, that's personal business. Anybody trying to control other people's behavior might be able to control their behavior but you will never be able to control a person's respect.*
> 
> too, and a ploy for attention by the grieving family. Hmm, learn something new every day.


Even the US courts figured out that ploy pretty easily, since the people who wanted to demand prayer at public functions started demanding a "moment of silence" when they were told they couldn't demand prayers. Pretty transparent, I'd say.
""And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men."
Matthew 6:5


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Tiempo said:


> And no one is without sin, right?
> 
> At least that's what I hear Christians say...so no one knows Christ and everyone is the Devil?
> 
> And the Son of God appeared to destroy the Devil's work ie sin? That doesn't seem to have worked out too well either :shrug:


Christianity pretends that Christ died as an ongoing sacrifice for sins.

Not so. Only the sins committed before accepting Christ, ie under the old covenant

Sinning after one is clothed in the body of Christ is the unforgivable sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.


Hebrews 10:26-27

New International Version (NIV)



26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 
Matthew 7:21-23

New International Version (NIV)



True and False Disciples
21 âNot everyone who says to me, âLord, Lord,â will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, âLord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?â 23 Then I will tell them plainly, âI never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!â


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

postroad said:


> Christianity pretends that Christ died as an ongoing sacrifice for sins.
> 
> Not so. Only the sins committed before accepting Christ, ie under the old covenant
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this.

I still don't know if I am a believer or not but I do appreciate all the help.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

I am an Agnostic myself but raised in a deeply conservative culture and family.

My biggest surprise over the years has been how biblically ignorant many Christians have become.

The new covenant which Christianity claims it has fulfilled was to be a ministry of the Spirit within the elect leading to the irrevocable transformation of the hearts and minds to absolute harmony to God's will and to each other.


Jeremiah 31:31-34

New International Version (NIV)



31 &#8220;The days are coming,&#8221; declares the LORD, 
&#8220;when I will make a new covenant 
with the people of Israel 
and with the people of Judah. 
32 It will not be like the covenant 
I made with their ancestors 
when I took them by the hand 
to lead them out of Egypt, 
because they broke my covenant, 
though I was a husband to[a] them,*&#8221; 
declares the LORD. 
33 &#8220;This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel 
after that time,&#8221; declares the LORD. 
&#8220;I will put my law in their minds 
and write it on their hearts. 
I will be their God, 
and they will be my people. 
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, 
or say to one another, &#8216;Know the LORD,&#8217; 
because they will all know me, 
from the least of them to the greatest,&#8221; 
declares the LORD. 
&#8220;For I will forgive their wickedness 
and will remember their sins no more.&#8221; 

The author of Hebrews (widely accepted to be St Paul) quotes this text almost verbatum.

He does minimise the concept of the "Law" and substitutes "laws"for the obvious reason.


Hebrews 8:6-13

New International Version (NIV)


6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said[a]: 

&#8220;The days are coming, declares the Lord, 
when I will make a new covenant 
with the people of Israel 
and with the people of Judah. 
9 It will not be like the covenant 
I made with their ancestors 
when I took them by the hand 
to lead them out of Egypt, 
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, 
and I turned away from them, 
declares the Lord. 
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel 
after that time, declares the Lord. 
I will put my laws in their minds 
and write them on their hearts. 
I will be their God, 
and they will be my people. 
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor, 
or say to one another, &#8216;Know the Lord,&#8217; 
because they will all know me, 
from the least of them to the greatest. 
12 For I will forgive their wickedness 
and will remember their sins no more.&#8221; 

13 By calling this covenant &#8220;new,&#8221; he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.



Jesus himself prayed to the Father that "proof" to the unbelieving world would be granted after his death through the absolute perfection and harmony of his followers.


John 17:20-23

New International Version (NIV)



Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 &#8220;My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one&#8212; 23 I in them and you in me&#8212;so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 






.*


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

pancho said:


> Thanks for posting this.
> 
> I still don't know if I am a believer or not but I do appreciate all the help.


You are leaving out repentance.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Christianity pretends that Christ died as an ongoing sacrifice for sins.
> 
> Not so. Only the sins committed before accepting Christ, ie under the old covenant
> 
> ...


Oh my!

The Christians aren't gonna like that. ound:


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

postroad said:


> Christianity pretends that Christ died as an ongoing sacrifice for sins.
> 
> Not so. Only the sins committed before accepting Christ, ie under the old covenant
> 
> ...


How do you explain Paul, when in the book of Romans he talks about the things he knows he shouldn't do, that's what he does and the things he knows he should do, he doesn't? Do you believe Paul was not a Christian?


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## John Carter (Oct 6, 2004)

amazing..6 pages of some one a lot of us never even heard of, and after reading some of the comments about him, what he wrote and said, I didnt miss a darn thing.

:hijacked:


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> Oh my!
> 
> The Christians aren't gonna like that. ound:


Any Bible student knows it is risky to find one scripture that suits your beliefs and ignore all others. It is always smart to find a second and, if possible, third witness in the Scriptures. Those bent on bashing Christianity are bad about claiming the Scriptures say this or that when it is false and ignoring Scriptures that contradict what they believe.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

postroad said:


> Christianity pretends that Christ died as an ongoing sacrifice for sins.
> 
> Not so. Only the sins committed before accepting Christ, ie under the old covenant
> 
> ...


Go read it in context. The Book is to the Hebrews. He is telling them that if they know the truth about Christ and who 
He was, then their sacrifices of animals would no longer cover their sins. You are misleading people as usual. BTW, you verse in Matthew is only talking about those who are deceived by antiChrist.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Redemption and Salvation
Jesus was called the _Lamb_ of God for a reason.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

The old saying to never let a non Christian interpret scripture for you is valid. They cannot understand it.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Any Bible student knows it is risky to find one scripture that suits your beliefs and ignore all others. It is always smart to find a second and, if possible, third witness in the Scriptures. Those bent on bashing Christianity are bad about claiming the Scriptures say this or that when it is false and ignoring Scriptures that contradict what they believe.


Hmm. That's fair enough! So, how about:

2 Corinthians 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Romans 6:6: "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." 

Romans 8: "5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God&#8217;s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."

P.S. Sonshine, in answer to your question, it's my understanding that in the passage you cited (I believe it's from Romans 7, which precedes the above) Paul was describing how it feels to live under the old covenant or Old Testament law. Read the two chapters together and you'll see what I mean ... pay special attention to Romans 8:3. 



> The old saying to never let a non Christian interpret scripture for you is valid. They cannot understand it.


How about former Christians?


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

willow_girl said:


> Hmm. That's fair enough! So, how about:
> 
> 2 Corinthians 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
> 
> ...


Thank you for the scripture reference.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> Hmm. That's fair enough! So, how about:
> 
> 2 Corinthians 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
> 
> ...


How about them?


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I believe the theory goes that non-Christians can't understand Scripture because they haven't received the Secret Decoder Ring (in the form of the Holy Spirit) that makes it comprehensible. But former Christians had the ring at some point, or maybe still do but choose not to use it any longer, eh? 

My point was that in numerous places, the New Testament makes the claim that people in whom Christ dwells are magically transformed by said indwelling, and become "new creatures" who turn away from their old, sinful ways, and instead live as a testament to their faith.

Except ... that's not usually what happens, is it? Oh, maybe for a short while after being "saved," but generally speaking ... no. Most Christians live and talk and act just like non-Christians, don't they? 

So, either the Bible is making a false promise, and describes something that doesn't really exist, or true Christians actually are rarer than hen's teeth. Which is it?


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

I thought I had put together a fairly comprehensible set of texts supporting my view???

It all hinges on the prophecies regarding the new covenant. The covenant of irresistible grace through the Holy Spirit.

In fact where it would no longer be necessary for people to teach one another at all thus eliminating human error and division.

Go see the texts in Jeremiah for yourself.

Also.


Ezekiel 36:22-28

New International Version (NIV)



22 &#8220;Therefore say to the Israelites, &#8216;This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes. 

24 &#8220;&#8216;For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

So in fact God demanded absolute perfection and he himself was going to provide this perfection through the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

So those who claim to have the Spirit and "know" the very will of God and at the same time can not control their own flesh and are in conflict with others that make the same claims are in fact profaning that very Spirit.

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

poppy said:


> Any Bible student knows it is risky to find one scripture that suits your beliefs and ignore all others. It is always smart to find a second and, if possible, third witness in the Scriptures. Those bent on bashing Christianity are bad about claiming the Scriptures say this or that when it is false and ignoring Scriptures that contradict what they believe.


From what I have read the bible contradicts itself. One part will say one thing and another part will say the opposite. All people, including supposedly christians, just pick the one they like the most and ignore the rest.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Yup, pretty much! :shrug:

I think this ambiguity has been a great boon for Christianity, in that it allows many more people to find answers that are palatable to them.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

pancho said:


> From what I have read the bible contradicts itself. One part will say one thing and another part will say the opposite. All people, including supposedly christians, just pick the one they like the most and ignore the rest.


I hear that argument said often but have never seen a case of it being true. You must rightly divide the Word. Attention must be paid as to who it is talking to and about in each instance. Some of the confusion stems from translation from the original text. If you look at an original KJV, the translators put a letter to the reader in the front of the Book warning you to be careful, saying they did the best they could but there may be errors. Ancient Hebrew was a language with no vowels and many words had multiple meanings. I have seen many supposed contradictions debunked by a simple bit of study.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

poppy said:


> I hear that argument said often but have never seen a case of it being true. You must rightly divide the Word. Attention must be paid as to who it is talking to and about in each instance. Some of the confusion stems from translation from the original text. If you look at an original KJV, the translators put a letter to the reader in the front of the Book warning you to be careful, saying they did the best they could but there may be errors. Ancient Hebrew was a language with no vowels and many words had multiple meanings. I have seen many supposed contradictions debunked by a simple bit of study.


... and perspective. An observed event will be described differently by a physician than by a tax collector, even though the facts are the same. Some will jump on a difference in perspective without ever comparing the actual facts, just for a reason to yell "contradiction".


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

One really can't use the bible as a benchmark of anything.
Perhaps if it was in it's original form, but it is not.
It is a conglomeration of parts found in different places, written by different people in different times, edited to within an inch of it's life, huge chunks have been deleted because the ruling political powers at the time felt that those books didn't fit their agendas and translated eight ways from Sunday to fit yet more political agendas over centuries of time.

So... it may have started as the word of god, but is now just a tool of men many years gone.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I hear that argument said often but have never seen a case of it being true.


How many examples do you want?

OK, let's take an easy one. What should society do to people caught in the act of adultery?

Answer #1: Execute them. (Leviticus 20:10: âIf a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.")

Answer #2: Don't execute them. (John 8:3-11:The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, âTeacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?â This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, âLet him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.â)

Answer #3: Shun them. (1 Corinthians 5:1-5: It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.)

Thus a person struggling with this issue can look to the Bible and find the answer that best satisfies them. :shrug:


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## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans,


Pagans are pretty tolerant :grin:


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

chickenslayer said:


> Pagans are pretty tolerant :grin:


I have began to think that might be the one I choose. They seem to have a better grasp on reality, seem much more tolerant, and overall more caring than most religions.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

No one commented on the two texts regarding who incited David?

1.2 Samuel 24:1
[ David Enrolls the Fighting Men ] Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, &#8220;Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.&#8221;

2.1 Chronicles 21:1
[ David Counts the Fighting Men ] Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.


Are we to assume that Satan is also God?


That latere redacters invented Satan to asume responsibility for events that they felt uncomfartable atributing to God himself?

That Satan operates strictly as an agent for God? ie


2 Chronicles 18:18-22

New International Version (NIV)



18 Micaiah continued, &#8220;Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing on his right and on his left. 19 And the LORD said, &#8216;Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?&#8217; 

&#8220;One suggested this, and another that. 20 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, &#8216;I will entice him.&#8217; 

&#8220;&#8216;By what means?&#8217; the LORD asked. 

21 &#8220;&#8216;I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,&#8217; he said. 

&#8220;&#8216;You will succeed in enticing him,&#8217; said the LORD. &#8216;Go and do it.&#8217; 

22 &#8220;So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.&#8221;


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

postroad said:


> No one commented on the two texts regarding who incited David?
> 
> 1.2 Samuel 24:1
> [ David Enrolls the Fighting Men ] Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, âGo and take a census of Israel and Judah.â
> ...


Good grief. They were FALSE prophets long before God gave one permission to lie to Ahab. Yes, God uses satan and his minions to His advantage when needed. He uses them for correction of His children. In one place in the NT, God said if His children wanted to be deluded, He would send them strong delusion.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

EasyDay said:


> ... and perspective. An observed event will be described differently by a physician than by a tax collector, even though the facts are the same. Some will jump on a difference in perspective without ever comparing the actual facts, just for a reason to yell "contradiction".


And the customs of the day.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

poppy said:


> Good grief. They were FALSE prophets long before God gave one permission to lie to Ahab. Yes, God uses satan and his minions to His advantage when needed. He uses them for correction of His children. In one place in the NT, God said if His children wanted to be deluded, He would send them strong delusion.


But is Pauline Christianity the strong delusion leading multitudes into ----ation?

Think about it.

The followers of Christ who personally (Luke 24:45
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures)Where at odds with Paul concerning the Law


Acts 21:19-24

New International Version (NIV)


19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 

20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: âYou see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 


And Paul, liar that he was did as they told him. Not only that but in his letter to the Galatians he denied that he had done so.

Galatians 2

Paul Accepted by the Apostles
1 Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4 This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. 
6 As for those who were held in high esteemâwhatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritismâthey added nothing to my message. 7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised,[a] just as Peter had been to the circumcised.* 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles.

So apparently there were now two paths to salvation. One for Jews who remained under the Law and one for Gentiles Who were free from the Law??

Paul insists elsewhere that this was not the case.


Romans 3:21-23

New International Version (NIV)



Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[a] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

In fact God prophecied that he himself would send someone to test his children to see who would remain faithfull to the Law and to the him as he describes himself in the OT.


Deuteronomy 13:1-4

New International Version (NIV)



Deuteronomy 13

Worshiping Other Gods
1 [a]If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, âLet us follow other godsâ (gods you have not known) âand let us worship them,â 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.*


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Cant we all just get along and understand that if believing in a higher being other then yourself makes you a good person than...please continue. And if believing in yourself other then a higher being makes you a good person...than please continue. Neither is wrong, as long as you continue to grow and try to do the right thing for yourself and others. 

And to the rest of you, All I have to say is "stay away from my lambs"!!! There will be no sacrificial offerings of my sheep....LMAO!!!


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> How many examples do you want?
> 
> OK, let's take an easy one. What should society do to people caught in the act of adultery?
> 
> ...


Think a bit. When Leviticus was written, Christ had not come in the flesh but He was to come through these people. He had to be a sacrifice without spot or blemish and God was determined that His bloodline would be pure. That was also the reason for Noah's flood and the order to not marry women of other lineage. Your second example is after Christ came in the flesh. What do you suppose He was writing in the dirt with his finger? Whatever it was, it made the woman's accusers leave one by one. He was noting their sins that were worthy of death also. Forgiveness was available since Christ was here. Example three is correct. Christians are to set themselves apart from evil. If you allow such things in your church, your church will decline. It's the same as the Bible saying " If your hand offend you, cut it off. If your eye offend you, pluck it out" or, as we say today, one bad apple spoils the whole barrel.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

God demands perfection.


Matthew 5:17-20

New International Version (NIV)



The Fulfillment of the Law
17 &#8220;Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


Although how Jesus could imply that any Law breaker would enter the kingdom at all hints at a interpolation in the text.

To imply that an abandonment of the Law was forgivable hints at something earlier described as a sign of the false prophet sent to test the Jews.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

chickenslayer said:


> Pagans are pretty tolerant :grin:


Pagans are tolerant all right but I don't know of any pagan groups existing today that would condone incest between a man and his mother. Incest does happen between family members in all societies but it is still recognized as taboo.



> It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife.





pancho said:


> *I have began to think that might be the one I choose.* They seem to have a better grasp on reality, seem much more tolerant, and overall more caring than most religions.


Your post suggests that you are looking for a religion to follow. Why choose somebody else's religion, why not create your own religion? That's what everyone else has done.

.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

naturelover said:


> Pagans are tolerant all right but I don't know of any pagan groups existing today that would condone incest between a man and his mother. Incest does happen between family members in all societies but it is still recognized as taboo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know enough about religion in general.

I was raised in a baptist family. We went to church any time the door was open. Sunday services, wednesday prayer meeting, revivals, vacation bible school, and church camp. We had the right front row reserved for our family.
Of the eight members of my family none now go to any church. 
Don't know what happened to make the others stop going but my curiosity got the better of me. I just had too many questions.
My parents were like many church going people. If you asked them questions you usually got into trouble. I had to try to find answers somewhere besides the church. The more I searched the less religion made sense. There was just too many things that wasn't believable.

Guess I would like to believe in religion. It would make things so much more simple. I just have a problem trying to fool myself.


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## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

naturelover said:


> Why choose somebody else's religion, why not create your own religion? That's what everyone else has done.
> 
> .


This has to be the truest and most honest post concerning religion ever banged out on a keyboard.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> I don't know enough about religion in general.
> 
> I was raised in a baptist family. We went to church any time the door was open. Sunday services, wednesday prayer meeting, revivals, vacation bible school, and church camp. We had the right front row reserved for our family.
> Of the eight members of my family none now go to any church.
> ...




If you are seriously searching for answers I would recommend a book by Lee Stroble entitles The Case for Christ. Whether you agree with what he writes or not, he does have some pretty strong arguments IMO. I was like you. I grew up in the Church and saw things that made me begin questioning everything. I stopped believing for years, but I still searched for some answers because I couldn't accept that this is all there is. I eventually found my answers, but the answers I found would not neccessarily be the answers that would help you. I pray that you will find that which you are looking for.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

pancho said:


> I don't know enough about religion in general ..... Guess I would like to believe in religion. It would make things so much more simple. I just have a problem trying to fool myself.


In a nutshell, all religion is, is that you choose a deity to worship and obey and have authority over you and you create a religion for it. 

If your choice is from deities that already exist with religious laws and ideals that other people have created for those deities, then you choose the deity whose religious ideals and trappings that are connected with it are those you approve of the most and that conform with your own ideals.

There is no deity that is going to tap you on the shoulder and say "Here I am, choose me as your god and worship me, grant me authority over you and obey me".

Religion and worshipping and obeying a deity is not the same thing as spirituality and being a spiritual person. A spiritual person may intuitively recognize that there is some un-named higher power that is greater than themself and take contentment from feeling an awareness and oneness with that higher power without feeling a need to worship it and obey it and give control of themself over to it.

.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

> In the beginning, God created man in his image. Ever since, man has been returning the favor.


Attributed to many. True of Christians more than anyone else.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

naturelover said:


> In a nutshell, all religion is, is that you choose a deity to worship and obey and have authority over you and you create a religion for it.
> 
> If your choice is from deities that already exist with religious laws and ideals that other people have created for those deities, then you choose the deity whose religious ideals and trappings that are connected with it are those you approve of the most and that conform with your own ideals.
> 
> ...


People "intuitively recognize" many things, but the track record for that method of learning the truth hasn't turned out very well for people who base important decisions on it.:Bawling:


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Sonshine said:


> If you are seriously searching for answers I would recommend a book by Lee Stroble entitles The Case for Christ. Whether you agree with what he writes or not, he does have some pretty strong arguments IMO. I was like you. I grew up in the Church and saw things that made me begin questioning everything. I stopped believing for years, but I still searched for some answers because I couldn't accept that this is all there is. I eventually found my answers, but the answers I found would not neccessarily be the answers that would help you. I pray that you will find that which you are looking for.


My problem with Lee Strobel stems from the fact that logic doesn't agree with him. It has nothing to do with whether I "agree" with what he writes or not. The test he has to pass is logic, not me.
Every "argument" he uses has been shot down in flames years(if not centuries)ago.:smack He didn't come up with any new arguments.:spinsmiley:


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

naturelover said:


> Pagans are tolerant all right but I don't know of any pagan groups existing today that would condone incest between a man and his mother. Incest does happen between family members in all societies but it is still recognized as taboo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not quite everyone else. Only those who chose to follow a religion did that. :cowboy:


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

FourDeuce said:


> My problem with Lee Strobel stems from the fact that logic doesn't agree with him. It has nothing to do with whether I "agree" with what he writes or not. The test he has to pass is logic, not me.
> Every "argument" he uses has been shot down in flames years(if not centuries)ago.:smack He didn't come up with any new arguments.:spinsmiley:


Since you have posted this, I'm assuming you have read the book I suggested. However, I think everyone has the right to read and decide for themselves if they agree or not with his findings.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

FourDeuce said:


> My problem with Lee Strobel stems from the fact that logic doesn't agree with him. It has nothing to do with whether I "agree" with what he writes or not. The test he has to pass is logic, not me.
> Every "argument" he uses has been shot down in flames years(if not centuries)ago.:smack He didn't come up with any new arguments.:spinsmiley:


I actually agree with this and I am a believer. I've read the book and I don't see how his arguments can convince anyone who doesn't already believe or at least really want to.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

FourDeuce said:


> My problem with Lee Strobel stems from the fact that logic doesn't agree with him. It has nothing to do with whether I "agree" with what he writes or not. The test he has to pass is logic, not me.
> Every "argument" he uses has been shot down in flames years(if not centuries)ago.:smack He didn't come up with any new arguments.:spinsmiley:


I read this book several years ago hoping for something a whole lot better than it actually was. If Strobel took his "logic" into a courtroom it would be dismantled in a few minutes. I was very disappointed with it as a believer. It would do nothing to convince a nonbeliever. It's purely a puff piece.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I read this book several years ago hoping for something a whole lot better than it actually was. If Strobel took his "logic" into a courtroom it would be dismantled in a few minutes. I was very disappointed with it as a believer. It would do nothing to convince a nonbeliever. It's purely a puff piece.


I'd call it a lightweight puff piece. :thumb:


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Sonshine said:


> Since you have posted this, I'm assuming you have read the book I suggested. However, I think everyone has the right to read and decide for themselves if they agree or not with his findings.


I think so, too, but whether THEY(or anybody else) agrees with his "findings"(which aren't really findings but recycled arguments) isn't really the point. He tries to pass his arguments off as logical arguments for his beliefs, when there is nothing logical about them. They're the same illogical arguments which have been tried for about 2000 years, and they never worked before Strobel recycled them and they still don't work.:dj:


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

FourDeuce said:


> People "intuitively recognize" many things, but the track record for that method of learning the truth hasn't turned out very well for people who base important decisions on it.:Bawling:


Good point and I agree with that. The way I look at it is that there's nothing sensible enough about religions or even spirituality for people to be making very important decisions based on their religious/spiritual beliefs. Important decisions should be made based on practical facts and truths that a person already knows rather than what they simply have faith in. Perhaps a person might have to quickly intuit whether or not they should do something that is dangerous or that could be a life changing gamble. They might trust in their gut instinct on what is the right thing for them to do ... and I am a firm believer that personal gut instinct is often quite reliable .... but I don't think they should rely on their religious or spiritual belief system to tell their gut instinct what is the right or wrong thing to do. If they do rely on their religious/spiritual belief system then they are not taking responsibility for themselves and the decisions they make and not taking advantage of what their own intuition or instinct is telling them.

.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Think a bit. When Leviticus was written, Christ had not come in the flesh but He was to come through these people. He had to be a sacrifice without spot or blemish and God was determined that His bloodline would be pure. That was also the reason for Noah's flood and the order to not marry women of other lineage. Your second example is after Christ came in the flesh. What do you suppose He was writing in the dirt with his finger? Whatever it was, it made the woman's accusers leave one by one. He was noting their sins that were worthy of death also. Forgiveness was available since Christ was here. Example three is correct. Christians are to set themselves apart from evil. If you allow such things in your church, your church will decline. It's the same as the Bible saying " If your hand offend you, cut it off. If your eye offend you, pluck it out" or, as we say today, one bad apple spoils the whole barrel.


You speak as if Christianity were a linear religion, with the New Testament neatly eclipsing the Old, but of course that's not really the case. Christians are perfectly capable of thumbing back to the Old Testament if, for instance, justification is required for their opposition to homosexuality. (I've noticed they're less likely to heed the warning about cheeseburger consumption.) Court battles have been fought in recent years over the posting of the Ten Commandments in a government building. Etc. 

So, a Christian looking for guidance on how to handle a case of infidelity could pick the response he or she finds most appealing, ranging from punishment to forgiveness, and find adequate Biblical support for his or her position. :shrug:


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

I have another question. Before we even get to religion.

Is there any way to know for sure there ever was a Jesus?
Is there any way to know for sure he died on the cross?
Is there any way to know for sure he came back from the dead?


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Depends on what you mean by "for sure." Probably not.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

pancho said:


> I have another question. Before we even get to religion.
> 
> Is there any way to know for sure there ever was a Jesus?
> Is there any way to know for sure he died on the cross?
> Is there any way to know for sure he came back from the dead?


 
At present time there is no historical evidence of his existence. The New Testament doesn't qualify as a factual historical biography. However, the general consensus of most historians and scholars who've studied the historicity of Jesus is that a person that Christianity is based on probably existed at some time during the last 100 years BCE but that the supernatural claims associated with him are myth.

.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

naturelover said:


> At present time there is no historical evidence of his existence.


Maybe no proof, but there's certainly evidence.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> Maybe no proof, but there's certainly evidence.


Could you give me some evidence?


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> > Originally Posted by *naturelover*
> > _At present time there is no historical evidence of his existence._
> 
> 
> Maybe no proof, but there's certainly evidence.


Well, that is where a lot of atheists would jump in and say no, there is no evidence, there is only anecdotal accounts and anecdotal accounts don't qualify as evidence.

Now lest you mistake my intentions, let me say here that I believe that Jesus existed and I believe in Christ Consciousness and I wouldn't attempt to disprove the existence of either one. However, I don't believe that Jesus of the past and Christ Consciousness of today are synonymous with each other and I only have personal anecdotal accounts of my experience with Christ Consciousness and absolutely no way to prove that Jesus ever existed in spite of my belief in his existence. Nobody does, not even the New Testament is evidence since it is strictly anecdotal. Personal beliefs and anecdotes that can't be proven as fact aren't good enough evidence of his existence from a factual and historical point of view.

If you can show positive evidence of Jesus' existence I'm sure it would set the whole world into a buzz of excitement, since people have been trying to prove it for 2,000 years and not been able to do so yet.

.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I have another question. Before we even get to religion.
> 
> Is there any way to know for sure there ever was a Jesus?
> Is there any way to know for sure he died on the cross?


There are a few references to Jesus in the historical record. Most indicate he was executed and that his followers continued to cause trouble after his death:

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_extrabib.html



> Is there any way to know for sure he came back from the dead?


I don't think it's possible to prove that conclusively.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

willow_girl said:


> There are a few references to Jesus in the historical record. Most indicate he was executed and that his followers continued to cause trouble after his death:
> 
> http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_extrabib.html
> 
> ...


Too bad there aren't any historical records of him written by anybody who was alive when he supposedly lived. There's lots of writing about many other figures from before then by actual eyewitnesses, but none for him. :cowboy:


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

The perfect unity of his followers is the proof that Jesus asked the Father for regarding his claims.

By their fruits you can judge the validity of his claims.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

postroad said:


> The perfect unity of his followers is the proof that Jesus asked the Father for regarding his claims.
> 
> By their fruits you can judge the validity of his claims.


I fail to see any unity. Even within groups with the same religion there isn't much unity. Different religions go so far as killing other religions.
It is very hard for a person wanting to learn about religion when the most important duty of many religions is to destroy another religion.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

chickenslayer said:


> This has to be the truest and most honest post concerning religion ever banged out on a keyboard.


Yes it is.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

pancho said:


> I fail to see any unity. Even within groups with the same religion there isn't much unity. Different religions go so far as killing other religions.
> It is very hard for a person wanting to learn about religion when the most important duty of many religions is to destroy another religion.


No perfect unity means no new covenant actual exists.

This indicates that Christ himself was a false prophet.


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> I believe the theory goes that non-Christians can't understand Scripture because they haven't received the Secret Decoder Ring (in the form of the Holy Spirit) that makes it comprehensible. But former Christians had the ring at some point, or maybe still do but choose not to use it any longer, eh?


Willow girl,
You're right. The Bible says that the words in the Bible are Spiritually discerned so we cannot understand the Bible unless the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to us. A person cannot lose the Holy Spirit once they receive Him. Some profess faith in Christ but do not have true faith. Judas appeared to be one of the disciples but he was the Son of perdition. 


> 1 Jn 2:19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.c 21I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth.





willow_girl said:


> My point was that in numerous places, the New Testament makes the claim that people in whom Christ dwells are magically transformed by said indwelling, and become "new creatures" who turn away from their old, sinful ways, and instead live as a testament to their faith.


They do change, but they will never live perfectly in this life. Christians still have a sin nature and will have a lifelong struggle in this world. 



> Galatians 5:13For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: âYou shall love your neighbor as yourself.â 15But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
> [this shows there must have been some tendency in them to fight one another]
> 16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. ESV





willow_girl said:


> Except ... that's not usually what happens, is it? Oh, maybe for a short while after being "saved," but generally speaking ... no. Most Christians live and talk and act just like non-Christians, don't they?
> 
> So, either the Bible is making a false promise, and describes something that doesn't really exist, or true Christians actually are rarer than hen's teeth. Which is it?


Maybe there's a misunderstanding of what the Bible really teaches. The Bible never excuses the sins of believers. Abraham lied, Noah got drunk, David committed adultery and murder. Yet David is a man after God's own heart. Paul and Barnabas had a falling out about Mark going with them. Later we see that Mark and Paul reconciled. Paul opposed Peter to his face because Peter was sinning in wrongly separating from the gentiles in Galatia because of the pressure from the false teachers who wanted to make gentiles become Jews first in order to become Christians. Every Christian has the world, the flesh and the Devil as enemies. The world is the system that is opposed to God's rule and His Holiness. We all fail in many ways. The flesh is the part of us with ungodly desires. We're given the whole armor of God explained in Ephesians because we as Christians are in a constant battle while in this world. The Lord Jesus Christ who is the God-Man is the only human who never sinned. He came to destroy the works of the Devil. Christ says if we love Him we will keep His commandments. 



> 1 Corinthinans 6: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


This passage shows these people came out of all kinds of ungodly lifestyles but they were justified and sanctified by the Lord. When a person is convicted of his sins and flees to Christ in repentance and faith, The Lord Jesus Christ takes on Himself the sinner's filthy sins and clothes the sinner with His own perfect righteousness. The sinner is justified, declared not guilty even though he is actually guilty. The sinless substitute, the Lord Jesus Christ suffered the wrath that the sinner deserved. After justification the Christian is sanctified which is a lifelong process. He hungers to know God more and is disciplined, encouraged and strengthened by God's word. He can backslide for a season, but God will work in his life to bring him back if he is truly God's child.
Sinless perfection is not taught in the Bible. We cannot habitually live in sin and be God's child. Christians do sin, but we confess our sins and repent when we fail and by God's grace and power we seek to live in the Light.



> 1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us...
> 1 John 2:1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4Whoever says âI know himâ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. ESV


The English Standard Version makes this passage much more plain than other versions.


> 1 Jn 3:4Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Godâs seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

New Covenant prophecies of the OT indicate God will provide the perfection of the flesh.

Now if you confess your sins committed while still under the old covenant and God forgives your sins and cleanses you from ALL unrighteousness as the author indicates and subsequently you defile yourself with sin again were you actually cleansed inwardly from sin?

I would think not. Did Christ only come to be a sacrificial lamb to be slaughtered again an d again? 


Romans 6:5-7

New International Version (NIV)



5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin&#8212; 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.


Hebrews 9:25-27

New International Version (NIV)


25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 


Hebrews 6:4-6

New International Version (NIV)



4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

postroad said:


> New Covenant prophecies of the OT indicate God will provide the perfection of the flesh.
> 
> Now if you confess your sins committed while still under the old covenant and God forgives your sins and cleanses you from ALL unrighteousness as the author indicates and subsequently you defile yourself with sin again were you actually cleansed inwardly from sin?
> 
> ...


Once again, you are not understanding those verses. It is simply saying you are only saved once. To try to be saved again is like recrucifying Christ. If you are saved and return to deliberate sin, you cannot nor do you need to be saved again. From that point on it is repentance. The reason is simple. It is Christ that does the saving. The sins you committed before salvation are done away with and never remembered by our Father. However, we will answer for the sins we commit after salvation unless we have repented for them. The doesn't mean we will go to hell. The Bible says righteous acts cover a multitude of sins. After salvation, do good to people when you can and repent often.


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

I'm not going to engage Post on this, but if anyone is interested in this topic here is a good quote from _The Attributes of God_ by Arthur Pink.

... God placed His elect upon a different footing from Adam or Israel. He placed them upon an unconditional footing. In the Everlasting Covenant Jesus Christ was appointed their Head, took their responsibilities upon Himself, and wrought out a righteousness for them which is perfect, indefeasible, eternal. Christ was placed upon a conditional footing, for He was "made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law," only with this infinite difference: the others failed, He did not and could not. And who placed Christ upon that conditional footing? The Triune God. It was sovereign will that appointed Him, sovereign love that sent Him, sovereign authority that assigned Him His work.Certain conditions were set before the Mediator. He was to be made in the likeness of sins flesh; He was to magnify the law and make it honorable; He was to bear all the sins of all Gods people in His own body on the tree; He was to make full, atonement for them; He was to endure the outpoured wrath of God; He was to die and be buried. On the fulfillment of those conditions He was promised a reward: Isaiah 53:10-12. He was to be the Firstborn among many brethren; He was to have a people who should share His glory. Blessed be His name forever, He fulfilled those conditions, and because He did so, the Father stands pledged, on solemn oath, to preserve through time and bless throughout eternity every one of those for whom His incarnate Son mediated. Because He took their place, they now share His. His righteousness is theirs, His standing before God is theirs, His life is theirs. There is not a single condition for them to meet, not a single responsibility for them to discharge in order to attain their eternal bliss. "By one offering He hath perfected forever them that are set apart" (Heb. 10:14).Here then is the sovereignty of God openly displayed before all, displayed in the different ways in which He has dealt with His creatures. Part of the angels, Adam, Israel, were placed upon a conditional footing, continuance in blessing being made dependent upon their obedience and fidelity to God. But in sharp contrast from them, the "little flock" (Luke 12:32), have been given an unconditional, an immutable standing in Gods covenant, Gods counsels, Gods Son; their blessing being made dependent upon what Christ did for them. "The foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal: The Lord knoweth them that are His" (2 Tim. 1:19). The foundation on which Gods elect stand is a perfect one: nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it (Eccl. 3:14). Here, then, is the highest and grandest display of the absolute sovereignty of God. Verily, He has "mercy on whom He will have mercy, and, whom He will He hardeneth" (Rom. 9:18).


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

I understand perfectly.Look at the OT.


Jeremiah 32:38-40

New International Version (NIV)


38 They will be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me and that all will then go well for them and for their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.


Ezekiel 36:24-28

New International Version (NIV)



24 &#8220;&#8216;For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

postroad said:


> I understand perfectly.Look at the OT.
> 
> 
> Jeremiah 32:38-40
> ...


That is yet future, after the lake of fire. God said, " I am a consuming fire". The Bible says the rudiments will be destroyed by the fire but the word rudiments means evil in the Greek. It is not fire as we know it. The Bible uses an example of a refiner's fire. It burns the sludge but it purifies the gold.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

I don't think so. Notice how the text indicates "children after them" and" follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws"

Does not seem to be reconcilable to the NT texts.

Luke 20:35
But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,


Colossians 2:16-17

New International Version (NIV)



16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant &#8220;new,&#8221; he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

postroad said:


> I don't think so. Notice how the text indicates "children after them" and" follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws"
> 
> Does not seem to be reconcilable to the NT texts.
> 
> ...


"Children after them" is a figure of speech to indicate the longevity of that covenant. In the same manner, the NT says that in the millennium, a child shall play on the hole of an asp. That is used to indicate safety since there are no children in the millennium.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

So that would make this text also a figure of speech?


Isaiah 65:17-25

New International Version (NIV)



New Heavens and a New Earth
17 &#8220;See, I will create 
new heavens and a new earth. 
The former things will not be remembered, 
nor will they come to mind. 
18 But be glad and rejoice forever 
in what I will create, 
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight 
and its people a joy. 
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem 
and take delight in my people; 
the sound of weeping and of crying 
will be heard in it no more. 
20 &#8220;Never again will there be in it 
an infant who lives but a few days, 
or an old man who does not live out his years; 
the one who dies at a hundred 
will be thought a mere child; 
the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred 
will be considered accursed. 
21 They will build houses and dwell in them; 
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit. 
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them, 
or plant and others eat. 
For as the days of a tree, 
so will be the days of my people; 
my chosen ones will long enjoy 
the work of their hands. 
23 They will not labor in vain, 
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune; 
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD, 
they and their descendants with them. 
24 Before they call I will answer; 
while they are still speaking I will hear. 
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together, 
and the lion will eat straw like the ox, 
and dust will be the serpent&#8217;s food. 
They will neither harm nor destroy 
on all my holy mountain,&#8221; 
says the LORD.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

That refers to the millennium. I notice you quote the NIV a lot. Do you own a good study Bible? They help immensely by referring you to other places in the Bible where the same thing is mentioned and often it makes it easier to understand. There are some good study Bibles out there, such as the Companion Bible. An original Strong's concordance also helps.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

I think Hitchens would laugh if he could see how this thread about his death morphed into a religious discussion.:clap:


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## RiverPines (Dec 12, 2006)

FourDeuce said:


> I think Hitchens would laugh if he could see how this thread about his death morphed into a religious discussion.:clap:


Ditto :spinsmiley:


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

I find it amusing that so many atheists quote from a book that they consider a "fairy tale".... right up there with Aesop's Fables! :hysterical:


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

poppy said:


> That refers to the millennium. I notice you quote the NIV a lot. Do you own a good study Bible? They help immensely by referring you to other places in the Bible where the same thing is mentioned and often it makes it easier to understand. There are some good study Bibles out there, such as the Companion Bible. An original Strong's concordance also helps.


I have all those things.

But let us not pretend that there is some unified concept linking all these "figures of speech" into a rational single concept that binds all Christianity into a singleness of heart and action. It does not exist. It has never existed.


John 16:12-14

New International Version (NIV)



12 âI have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 


I use the NIV because it does not confuse the text with the use of a language foreign to modern usage.

Although if Jeremiah was to be believed there would no written NT at all.




Jeremiah 31:33-34

New International Version (NIV)



33 âThis is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel 
after that time,â declares the LORD. 
âI will put my law in their minds 
and write it on their hearts. 
I will be their God, 
and they will be my people. 
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, 
or say to one another, âKnow the LORD,â 
because they will all know me, 
from the least of them to the greatest,â 
declares the LORD. 
âFor I will forgive their wickedness 
and will remember their sins no more.â


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

EasyDay said:


> I find it amusing that so many atheists quote from a book that they consider a "fairy tale".... right up there with Aesop's Fables! :hysterical:


Whats funny about it??


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

FourDeuce said:


> I think Hitchens would laugh if he could see how this thread about his death morphed into a religious discussion.:clap:


Sort of strange.
Also notice how even the religious people can't agree what the same sentence in the bible means.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> They do change, but they will never live perfectly in this life. Christians still have a sin nature and will have a lifelong struggle in this world.


But that's not what the Bible says. You know it, too -- you go on to contradict yourself by quoting 1 John 3, which says, "9No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Godâs seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."

If the Bible is correct, people who are "born of God" no longer possess the desire to sin. They have been changed in such a way that sinful desires have been removed. Thus if you still are feeling the desire to sin ... UH-OH! 

Actually, I don't find this contention so farfetched. I know that in my own life, I go from day to day trying to do my best at every task to which I turn my hand, and trying to be kind to everyone I meet. This is not through any religious belief, but simply my own personal conviction as to the best way to live my life. Where I fall short -- and often I do -- it's generally through error, not willfulness (for example, if I cut you off in traffic, it's because I was inattentive and didn't see you, not because I was being a jerk). It's not like I deserve credit for struggling and overcoming temptation -- I simply don't have any desire to lie, steal, cheat, etc. 

Now, if it's possible for me, as a total nonbeliever, to live this way, is it too much to expect of Christians, who supposedly are imbued with the Holy Spirit, etc.? I don't think so. :shrug:


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

postroad said:


> I have all those things.
> 
> But let us not pretend that there is some unified concept linking all these "figures of speech" into a rational single concept that binds all Christianity into a singleness of heart and action. It does not exist. It has never existed.
> 
> ...


The phrase "after that time" refers to the millennium when everyone will know God is real and understand His wishes.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Perhaps "people of Israel" is another figure of speech?

Who decides what to accept as the literal plain reading of the text and what is figurative?


When Christ personally asked the Father for perfect harmony in his believers and when the author of 1John indicated that the "last hour" was upon them due to the fragmenting of the believers were those also non literal concepts?


1 John 2:18-19

New International Version (NIV)


18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Am I to understand that Christ did not usher in the New Covenant at his resurrection but will only do so after the millenium?


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

pancho said:


> Sort of strange.
> Also notice how even the religious people can't agree what the same sentence in the bible means.


Post is not a religious person. He described himself as an agnostic in this thread. There are various interpretations about the end times and about the millennium but all true Christians believe in the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ as the only way of salvation.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Also the author of Hebrews widely accepted as being Paul quotes the text of Jeremiah as being fulfilled at that time.
Hebrews 8:9-15

New International Version (NIV)



9 It will not be like the covenant 
I made with their ancestors 
when I took them by the hand 
to lead them out of Egypt, 
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, 
and I turned away from them, 
declares the Lord. 
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel 
after that time, declares the Lord. 
I will put my laws in their minds 
and write them on their hearts. 
I will be their God, 
and they will be my people. 
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor, 
or say to one another, âKnow the Lord,â 
because they will all know me, 
from the least of them to the greatest. 
12 For I will forgive their wickedness 
and will remember their sins no more.â[a] 

13 By calling this covenant ânew,â he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

So the words "soon disappear" must also be a figure of speech as the Jews are still faithful to the old covenant "Law" to one degree or another.


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

willow_girl said:


> But that's not what the Bible says. You know it, too -- you go on to contradict yourself by quoting 1 John 3, which says, "9No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Godâs seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."
> 
> If the Bible is correct, people who are "born of God" no longer possess the desire to sin. They have been changed in such a way that sinful desires have been removed. Thus if you still are feeling the desire to sin ... UH-OH!
> 
> ...


Willow girl,
I agree that there are many poor examples of Christians and even true Christians will have times when they fail. Another thing is that all who profess faith in Christ may not necessarily have true saving faith. Many are deceived. Their hearts have never been regenerated but they might go through the motions of religion.


> John 15:15 âI am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.


John does not contradict himself. Christians are commanded to live holy lives, not because it will save them but because they have been saved in order to be conformed to Christ are are partakers of the divine nature. Because they are _already_ made righteous in Christ they are to _act_ like God's children. God's Holy Spirit is working in them to conform them to Christ. John acknowledges that Christians will still sin but that is not to be their lifestyle.



> 2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. *But if anyone does sin*, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. emphasis added


 There is no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. At justification all the sins a Christian has done in the past, present and future are all gone. When I sin, it hurts my relationship with my heavenly Father and I want to walk in His light and feel His nearness. A Christian confesses his sins not because he will go to hell if he doesn't confess them but because sin grieves the Holy Spirit and because when we sin we are not walking in the Spirit but in the flesh.

We humans have a deficient view of sin if we think we do not sin. Jesus didn't come to save righteous people but only sinners.



> Ephesians 2: And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedienceâ3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body1 and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.2 4 But3 God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christâby grace you have been savedâ6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable xriches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; cit is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


Jesus said that if we are angry with our brother we are breaking the command to murder or if we lust in our hearts we commit adultery in our hearts. Jesus said to keep the law is to love God with all our hearts and souls, strength and mind and to love our neighbor as ourself. Who has ever done this perfectly except the Lord Jesus Christ? 

In 1 John , John is writing to Christians. Before they were saved they were slaves to sin and could do nothing but sin. "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." Romans 14:23 according to the Bible, so sin is not only doing evil things but sin is also the lack of conformity to God's moral law. That is why it took the Son of God dying to save us out of our bondage to sin. Sin is no longer our master if we are believers. We are freed from the law of sin and death. God gives us power to overcome sin and temptations and if we fail we have an advocate with the Father. 



> Romans 8 :8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.1 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you 2 free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,3 he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
> 
> 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus4 from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.


Hebrews says that Christ has made his people perfect positionally. Their souls will go to be with the Lord when they die and one day be raised to life in a glorified body like the Lord's own glorious body that can never die.



> 12 But when Christ2 had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. *14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.*
> 
> 15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
> 
> ...



He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
Have to do some baking so will stop now.
~Susan


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## DanielY (Aug 25, 2011)

pancho said:


> Sort of strange.
> Also notice how even the religious people can't agree what the same sentence in the bible means.


I wanted to make a comment in this point because it is true. The accuracy of predicting how prophecy will play out has never been good. For example. The bible mentioned that Jesus would be a Galilean but born in Bethlehem. In other words it was saying he would be born in two separate places. It also said he would be called out of Egypt. As you can see, I could get confusing. is He from Galilee, Bethlehem or Egypt? it cannot possibly be all three right? It is not until you read the story in the historical prospective then it all fits into place. Even though the bible has a long history of prophecy that has been literally fullfilled. It still has many that have not. Our ability to translate them has not gotten any better.

Even more important. nearly ever word of the bible has three translations. A literal, spiritual and personal. So if the bible says that Jesus ate with a tax collector. It means that in fact Jesus had a meal with a tax collector. This fact also has a spiritual implication for humanity as a whole. The simple message on the spiritual level is be careful who you wrinkle your nose at. they may be serving the banquet one day. We do not see others as God does. We do not know them as God does. The personal translation will actually be personal and specific to each individual. For one it may be correction, for another it may be affirmation and yet for others it may be educational.

For the above reason it may actual be possible that differing translations to be equally correct. I find it far more likely that most translations are very incorrect but that is another issue. Man simply does not have a very good track record of understanding or following the direction of God. I don't think they are getting any better at it.

My personal beliefs are in large part not a result of the teaching of the church. In fact I believe the church has it very wrong in many cases.

Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship. A relationship with an intelligent purposeful power that consciously and intentionally created all that we see around us. I have witnessed that this power is real and purposeful. He for lack of a better word and the fact it is in a male form that He chose to walk this earth. Does not require adherence to the rules as the church teaches and in reality demands it's members live buy. I have seen the teaching and promises of God play out in the lives of people that do not acknowledge his existence. I personally believe that God created the sun for all the purposes it serves to sustain life as He created it. He has no requirement that you know Him or believe in Him for this to be true. Most of what God created works for everyone, even those that hate him. But there are some things He shares only with those that seek Him, know Him and believe in Him. It is belief in Him that is the relationship, at least for me. it is a never ending journey of knowing Him better, trusting Him more and seeing Him in everything around me. Understanding His personality and seeing how he designed His personality into His creation. As I become more familiar with God I see how who He is is revealed even in the changing of the seasons. It is a very personal thing that God does to show Himself to me. For me He is as real as gravity, air, magnetism or any other power that is not seen but nobody questions exists. God may be very real to me. But I also know He is not for many others. It is not my place to judge those others. it is not mine to be offended by them. It is not my place to "Save" them. God has asked me to love them. They are not my enemies, they are my brothers and sisters. God has not asked me to convince anyone of His existence. He has asked me to be an example of a life that is the result of a relationship with Him. Knowing God does not make me perfect. I am far from it. But I also will not brow beat anyone for what they believe. Any person of any belief has just as many reasons for that belief as I do. They are convinced for whatever reasons they have found adequate. If I where to find a Satanist stranded and in need. My God asks me to lend them the same assistance I would lend a Saint.
I have seen God work in the lives in far more powerful ways among the heathens of this world than I have even seen in a church. Jesus traveled this earth and consorted mainly with the outcasts as far as the religious leaders where concerned. Tax collectors, prostitutes. The Hells Angels of his day in some cases. He sought his followers is the gutters not in the temples. Some of the harshest words He had to speak where to the leaders of religion in His day. I don't think that has changed much. There is a lot to contemplate in that and what it says about today's religious opinions.

Of all that God has created there is nothing more valuable to Him than you. No matter what you have done, that love will never fade. He will welcome you with open arms at any moment. But he will not allow me or anyone else to make that happen. It is between you and Him and He is content with whatever you choose. Does God require that belief in Him be demonstrated by you attending church every Sunday and eating saltines and drinking grape juice once a month? Not hardly. My mother once put the issue of church to me like this. God spends all week going with me wherever I want to go. But once a week He asks me to Go where He wants to go and that is for just a couple of hours. I happen to be a petty spoiled and bratty child and still am not that good at going with Him. Sorry but His friends there just get under my skin real fast. I would rather go set in the gutter and talk with all those real sick folks. I guess I am just more at home with the prostitutes than I am with the pharisees. I see God's work there more clearly and more powerfully. There are real issues, drastic and often desperate issues. And I see real answers often. I like AA meetings where I see people being saved all the time. I see them and their lives being healed. I also see many not get saved. I grew up thinking that everyone eventually finds AA and gets healed of alcoholism. But that is not true. many many people die from it. But if I had to say any one thing formed my beliefs in God it is the 12 step program. I know He is real and He saves people. He repairs lives. and like healing a tree that had a limb blown of. it is a process, a slow but complete process. You do not walk into a Church kneel at an alter and pray that Jesus does not let you drink again. It is not like that. It requires that you change. You change so that you do not need to drink again. A relationship with God is like that. He changes you. Through knowing Him, trusting Him and learning to listen and follow Him. He will change you. How I don't know, it is not always good. Sometimes it is challenging. Where He leads you is about you trusting Him even more, knowing Him even better. Being able to see Him in how He made water pour over rocks. In how the wind blows and in how rain is unpredictable but still works. All things in there time act out to meet His purpose. Even a Hurricane. There is more to why bad things happen but I will not go into it here. In short there is another player in the game. and he is not nearly so nice. And this earth is his domain. This earth is cursed so bad things exist on it. Things like disease and death. anger and greed. Hate and lust. Storms and drought. Pestilence and pain in countless forms. These things are permitted by God not intended by Him. They stand in contrast to who He is. They serve as the indication of what you choose. Because you will choose. God said you are to make a choice and it is as unavoidable as gravity. Not Choosing God is a choice for the only other alternative.

I have a saying that I like.
There is no such thing as darkness, only absence of light.
There is no such thing as the cold, only absence of heat.
There is no such thing as hell, only the absence of God.

What will it be like when you no longer have the sun to shine on you? When you no longer have any of the blessings that God showers on everyone, believer or not. I share that thought with you because I believe somewhere along my journey it was one that had a powerful influence on the direction I chose. Maybe it will for you, maybe it won't.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Thanks Daniel.
Sure wish more people believed the way you do.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

EasyDay said:


> I find it amusing that so many atheists quote from a book that they consider a "fairy tale".... right up there with Aesop's Fables! :hysterical:


It's similar to my amusement when people who KNOW I don't believe in their book quote it at me to "prove" something.:hysterical:


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Is there a contradiction in these texts?
1 John 3:4-9

New International Version (NIV)



4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil&#8217;s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God&#8217;s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

1 John 5:18
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.



Why would the author engage in such double speak? How does the above texts reconcile itself to this text?

1 John 2:1
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father&#8212;Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

Same author, same letter??

The only reasonable explanation would be that the first instance the author is addressing initiates who had not yet been baptised while the instances mentioning sinlessness is a warning of what was expected of those who had gone through the process of being "born of God" 

Are we expect that God's seed can not actually keep one free of sin but only serve as a atoning sacrifice to be repeated as necessary?


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

FourDeuce said:


> It's similar to my amusement when people who KNOW I don't believe in their book quote it at me to "prove" something.:hysterical:


I know! I also find that amusing!


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Daniel and Susan, I thank you for your thoughtful replies. 

I wanted to comment on this



> But if I had to say any one thing formed my beliefs in God it is the 12 step program. I know He is real and He saves people. He repairs lives. and like healing a tree that had a limb blown of. it is a process, a slow but complete process. You do not walk into a Church kneel at an alter and pray that Jesus does not let you drink again. It is not like that. It requires that you change. You change so that you do not need to drink again.


I did the 12-step program too, many years ago, and it saved my life. The interesting thing is that if you work the steps, it will work for you, whether you use the Christian god or a tree or a rock as your Higher Power. This suggests that it is not the Higher Power that is doing the job here, but rather the changes you make in your thinking and behavior.

As a nonbeliever, I was stuck on the whole Higher Power concept, until someone in the program pointed out to me that unless I considered myself the pinnacle of creation (which wasn't likely, as my life was a MESS) certainly I could find _some_ Higher Power in the universe to latch onto! So my Higher Power was an abstract construct roughly defined as "everything that is better, smarter and more functional than myself." Sounds weird, but it worked.


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## DanielY (Aug 25, 2011)

postroad said:


> Christianity pretends that Christ died as an ongoing sacrifice for sins.
> 
> Not so. Only the sins committed before accepting Christ, ie under the old covenant
> 
> ...


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## DanielY (Aug 25, 2011)

Willow, Thank you. I appreciate your being a voice of confirmation, a witness to my comments. Yes the program works those steps have power. You don't see any reason to think it is some being that made it that way. and that is fine. Because it works. I saw the power of those principals at work every day time and time again. and then as I learned about the bible I found that He said they work that way. Basically I see it as the power of Confession, repentance and forgiveness. The first two you do. the last He does and it works even if you do not agree He exists. He does not require that you call Him by a certain name. He does not require that you know Him at all. and that is what I find amazing. He made all of creation to work the way it does. even us. I see the process of the 12 steps as actually very simple. Stop running from the problem and face it head on. see it as clearly as you possible can and then seek solutions. It is pretty obvious when you see it that way. Nothing real mysterious about it. Unless you live in it and experience how powerless you really are. But there is a power, You know it and I know it that is greater than ourselves. You call it anything in better shape. I call it God. But neither of us can ever deny that it exists. You know that power saved you. I say it loves you, you are precious to it. It desires wonderful things for you. But it also does the ultimate set it free, if it returns it is yours sort of thing.

Your post has blessed me today. If you never see that power as having a name. I don't think that is important. But my heart aches for you to know that it purposefully wants to direct your life to better and better places. Not by chance, but by intent and plan. 12 steps laid out and written down with the promise it will cure you. that is intent and a plan. and it works for anyone that carries them out. But they have to work at it they have to apply themselves, they have to have great intent in finding that healing or what I call salvation, transformation and healing. In regard to whatever you where powerless over. It has made you a new creature. It has renewed you. It has redeemed and restored you. Notice I capitalized It. because I feel it is respectful to capitalize any name I call It. You have had the fortune to walk closer to what I recognize as God than most. You have an experience that even though you cannot really explain you know is real. As you carry this message to others. Do you find it impossible to prove to them that there is a power? You are proof of that power but it is not convincing to the next person. All such things are mysterious and elusive. They lack proof even though we know they are as real as the air around us. It is personal even though it is offered to everyone. All these things are just some of the majestic qualities I have come to know about God.
Today is a very special day for me. Because it is a celebration of a day that this power became a man a human and came to earth. His purpose was to address another illness that we all suffer. That is we will be lost to that Power forever unless a debt we owe is paid. That illness is that we are sinners. Always have been and always will be. Even though we can be forgiven our sins. it does not mean we cannot still sin. See my previous post about how that works. The debt of being a sinner is paid, we are not cured of being sinners. That power is not only able to cure people from addictions. It can touch every part of their lives. but it requires a similar focus and effort on our part. not always. I believe God has made the intended and purposeful effort a part of it all because His goal is a relationship with us. If He just waved his magic wand and healed you of your addiction. You very likely would have never known there is a power. But in the struggle to carry out those steps. You walked every day with that power. you watched it work out piece by piece in your life. you experienced the transformation and you felt the healing. And for you it is as real as air.

I say that power is listening to you. You can try talking to it if you want. You don't have to kneel just so, or have all the fancy words that sound so good. I know this is strange. But seek a place in your mind that you start to think that just maybe that power is intelligent and wants you to know it better. That there are more proposes it has for your life. Then maybe say something like. Hey you, Power. If you are real like some say you are and you are intelligent and purposeful. Then I can know more about you. Some people say you are an almighty God creator of all the universe or something. I'm not so sure you are nothing more than a side effect of people that cared about me when I was at my worst or something. Some people say that the way to know you better is to eat a cracker and drink a little juice once a month and set in church and listen to others tell me all about you. Problem is that isn't really convincing and I really think it is just a group of hypocrites. Well I am not interested in dressing up all fancy once a week and going and playing like I know you or something. What I am is just a little curious as to weather you are more than just a side effect. are you intelligent and purposeful and really some being. Are you in fact real. Someone once said that you stand at the door and knock. But I must be deaf cause there is no one knocking on my door. So what is that all about? Some people say they can see you in a forest or in the ocean and all sorts of other ways in nature. But I might just might be blind to what they see. I think it would be cool to know you if you are real. and I don't think that would be real hard for you to do if you can create all of heaven and earth and all that. Help me to see that you have desire and want to walk with me to touch other areas of my life. Make your person real to me. Let me see a personality in who you are.

I actually told God once that if He was real I could know him. I know my earthly father by the sound of his voice, I recognize him by the sound of his foot steps. I know his personality and can predict almost word for word what he would say about something. I can hear how he speaks in my head. I know the words he would choose. If you where to come to me and say. Your father said such and such. I would know by the very words spoken if it was a message from my father or something you just made up. Have you ever had someone say so and so said such and such and your response was "That doesn't sound like them" Well of course ding dong it's me speaking here and I sound like me duh. Then you think. ah that is not at all what I ment. They would not say that. those words are just not "Them". What you are speaking of is the spirit of the person. when you know a person you know the spirit of that person. and that spirit can carry a very long way. it become a part of you. The better you get to know someone the more of their spirit you carry with you. It is God's spirit you want. the good news is it is God's spirit He wishes to give you. I asked God to make Himself as familiar and real to me as my earthly father. and over mainly a three year period He did. I now carry with me much more of God's spirit. He has become real to me in far more ways. I now can see His qualities in nature. I see in many ways that even though He is infinity complicated and creative. He is rock steady and consistent. He can do the same thing 100 million times and never do it the same way twice. He can make an infinite number of snow flakes and no two are the same. But they all look like snow flakes. He made you and he made me and though we are the same there is nothing about us that is alike. These things are very deep mysteries. God is where perfect consistency and limitless difference meet. Our minds cannot even comprehend that. God reaches beyond our understanding in every way.

Thank you that this day of all days you have given me reason to delve into the deepest most parts of my heat, and explore who this God is to me. I set here writing and re writing with no real idea of what the entire thing looks like now. Waiting for my wife, children and grandchildren to wake up. Soon we will start opening presents and doing all the traditional Christmas things that really keep us distracted from really spending time with that Power. But today I started my day with this message. And it has caused me to feel more in touch with who I understand God to be and what He means to me than any Christmas I can remember. Regardless of what this day holds. I am nestled in his hand and He cares.

I hope you are blessed today. A day that we celebrate the greatest gift that was ever given. A child, A child that would provide the sacrifice for the sins of all mankind. Not so that we never sin again or that we are made perfect. But so that we can remain with Him for eternity. God loves us as we are. He loves you just as you are. sinner and all. He loves you even tomorrow when you will fail yet again. He loves you from the beginning to the end of time and beyond. But He has opened His hand and set you free. If you return you will be His. If you don't He has chosen to let it be so.

A man once asked Jesus, "How much do you live me" And Jesus replied, "this much". He stretched his arms, and died. He loves you that much also. I hope one day you know that with all your heart. Better than I know it today.

Today is not about the sorrow for that mans death. It is a celebrations of His birth. A savior is born. May your celebration be grand and fulfilling. flowing over with hope and joy. If today all you can do is celebrate your experience with that Power. Then celebrate it with everything in you. And take a moment to tell it thank you. That even if it is not a conscious being. Be thankful that it exists and it works. Look around you and find those things that are more together than you are. And be grateful.

Merry Christmas.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

DanielY said:


> postroad said:
> 
> 
> > Christianity pretends that Christ died as an ongoing sacrifice for sins.
> ...


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## DanielY (Aug 25, 2011)

Post raod, Neraly everything you quote. And I say nearly only because I have not inspected every detail of it and don't intend to. Btu I do suspect every quote above is "Conditional" Yes God has Conditions on some promises. God does not put conditions on things like the sun rising. He does put conditions on things such as "being called". Not everyone is an Elijah or a Samson. Few in fact are aver asked to be and they have no business acting as if they have been.

Unity in thought for example is not a permanent condition. Those blessing are things that God said. "If you, I will". Man fails to measure up. The "If you" rarely if ever happens.

Jesus was once told by a bunch of non believers that if he did some miracle they would believe in him. Jesus told them their hearts where wicked and they only craved a thrill, a circus performer, a good show. He also added that even if a person was raised from the dead it woudl not cause them to believe. They did the typical hey right your full of hot air. Jesus then did exactly what he said would not work. HE raised a man from the dead. Himself after his crucifixion. And He was correct. It did nothing to cause non believers to believe. His death was not meant to convince anyone.

I find that a huge problem as well. The application of scripture to a non relevant issue. It is like talking about cake frosting when the topic is about tuning engines. You can swim around and miss apply scripture to support the choice you have chosen all you want. You will find plenty to convince yourself. God is not going to prevent that.

It is also not true that you find God and life gets better, In fact more often than not it gets worse. Seeking God means you chose a new course. A new course means changes. and changes alone are enough to make your life a P.I.T.A.

You will never find God by saying show me this or show me that. You must sincerely believe he is real and seek him carefully.

Do raw uncut diamonds really exist? I am certain your answer is yes. So I will respond with. I have never seen one so prove it. I don't believe in raw diamonds so you have to let me see and touch one. How difficult will it be for you to provide me with a raw diamond to touch and feel. Still if I continue to choose to not believe I will simply say. I am still not convinced. Provide me the education that allows me to determine if this is a raw diamond. So you do at great effort. I can still choose to not believe the education is correct. At some point the entire issue requires that I believe something by faith. Faith is the belief in something that cannot be proven. You set in a chair on the faith that it will support your weight. Without faith you cannot find God. The very first step in seeking God is that basic I choose to believe He is.

My question to you. If you do not believe God exists. Why do you not have peace with your belief? If we are all out there wasting our time talking to an enigma, what is that to you? The Bible is a complicated multi layer message that can only be revealed by the Holy Spirit. Nobody but God understands it completely. Any book written by a man can be understood by a man. But a book written by God can only be understood by God. If you can look around you and see all of creation and not be convinced there is a creator. there is nothing in the bible that will. The Bible is a message written to believers and if you are not a believer you should not be reading other peoples mail. There is only one message in that entire book for a non believer. Repent. And that is it.

If you read some of the passages above in the context of the story. You will find it is revealing the utter and continuous deprivation and failing of man. It is actually a power teaching in how desperately man needs God's intervention. IF you actually read that section of the bible and really pay attention to it. Most don't because it is boring as all get out. You end up with a gut feeling that God is going to rain down fire on all of humanity. Even if you know how the story ends which most people do. that knowledge tends to be overwhelmed by a since of how angry God must be. You can literally forget that what God does is sends His son to die for these people.

Notice that I speak of the bible and it's message as an emotional experience. Not one of intellectual knowledge. And that is what you are missing. Has your heart been made to do flip flops as you read a book written by God? If not you have not read it. You are in fact incapable of reading it.

You want to set in the dining car when you have not even bought a ticket to be on the train. My God said not to cast my pearls before swine. and this is exactly the situation he was speaking of. I am wasting treasure with a conversation like this. You will not believe because you have chosen not to believe. God says you will not be able to say. "I didn't know you where real" Because His creation is the very indisputable evidence of His existence, those that choose to not believe are without excuse.

The bible says one thing to a person that says "There is no God" And that is they are a fool. It says nothing about what to do for a person like that. It does not tell that person what they should do. God does not even address the issue of atheism. To me it is as if there is not fix for it. Until a person takes that step of faith and chooses to believe. God has nothing to say to them. Repent, that is the only word in God's word that can effect your heart. God is speaking to the truth, a truth you cannot understand. He is speaking to mans heart and mans condition. He is speaking to all of creation and to each individual simultaneously. And His word apply perfectly to both. I seldom if ever see God "Move" in such a way that it accomplishes just one thing. God will touch the heart of a non believer, feed a hungry person, comfort the mother of a sick child and change the course of human events with just one action. When I am obedient to God I can watch the effect of my actions spread out around me like the ripples from a stone cast into water. I watch those waves impact the lives of those around me. You cannot be near the hand of God and not be changed. 

It is we that fail, It is we that do not understand. It is us that twist Gods words to suit our desires, our understanding and our hope. We think we know the answers and then try to say that is what God meant. We try to tell God that the answer is that all men love each other and live in harmony. God is saying we are corrupt and fallen and incapable of loving. That must be fixed first. and that fix is ugly.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

The point of the New Covenant was to eliminate the wild card of human frailty and replace it with irresistible grace.

God made a unconditional promise to Abraham. That promise was only later coupled to conditions.

If those conditions are impossible to keep in both the natural state and in the "saved" state then God will never be able to keep his promise to Abraham.

1.Genesis 12:7
The LORD appeared to Abram and said, &#8220;To your offspring I will give this land.&#8221; So he built an altar there to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

2.Genesis 13:15
All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring forever.

3.Genesis 15:7
He also said to him, &#8220;I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it.&#8221;

4.Genesis 15:18
On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, &#8220;To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates&#8212;

5.Genesis 17:8
The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.&#8221;

6.Genesis 24:7
&#8220;The LORD, the God of heaven, who brought me out of my father&#8217;s household and my native land and who spoke to me and promised me on oath, saying, &#8216;To your offspring I will give this land&#8217;&#8212;he will send his angel before you so that you can get a wife for my son from there.

7.Genesis 26:3
Stay in this land for a while, and I will be with you and will bless you. For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham.

8.Genesis 26:4
I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,

9.Genesis 26:22
He moved on from there and dug another well, and no one quarreled over it. He named it Rehoboth, saying, &#8220;Now the LORD has given us room and we will flourish in the land.&#8221;

10.Genesis 28:4
May he give you and your descendants the blessing given to Abraham, so that you may take possession of the land where you now reside as a foreigner, the land God gave to Abraham.&#8221;

11.Genesis 28:13
There above it stood the LORD, and he said: &#8220;I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying.

Genesis 35:12
The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you.&#8221;

Later conditions were added. but the unconditional came first.


Deuteronomy 11:22-28

New International Version (NIV)



22 If you carefully observe all these commands I am giving you to follow&#8212;to love the LORD your God, to walk in obedience to him and to hold fast to him&#8212; 23 then the LORD will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations larger and stronger than you. 24 Every place where you set your foot will be yours: Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the Euphrates River to the Mediterranean Sea. 25 No one will be able to stand against you. The LORD your God, as he promised you, will put the terror and fear of you on the whole land, wherever you go. 

26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse&#8212; 27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today; 28 the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known.

So are we back to God's sovereignty in answering his own Sons prayer hinging on human cooperation?


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## CoonXpress (Sep 20, 2004)

TL;DR: If Christopher Hitchens was so famous, how come I didn't hear about him until after he died? :shrug:
Plus this is the only place that seemed that anyone cared enough that he did die.

****, the Agnostic Shinto Baptist


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

postroad said:


> The point of the New Covenant was to eliminate the wild card of human frailty and replace it with irresistible grace.
> 
> God made a unconditional promise to Abraham. That promise was only later coupled to conditions.
> 
> ...


The verses in Deut. have nothing to do with the promise made in Genesis. The Jews disobeyed God many times and they were often punished but the promise of their land did not change because it is an eternal promise. Deuteronomy was telling them if they obeyed God, they would take the land easily because God Himself would drive their enemies from it. If they disobeyed, taking the land would be difficult.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

poppy said:


> The verses in Deut. have nothing to do with the promise made in Genesis. The Jews disobeyed God many times and they were often punished but the promise of their land did not change because it is an eternal promise. Deuteronomy was telling them if they obeyed God, they would take the land easily because God Himself would drive their enemies from it. If they disobeyed, taking the land would be difficult.


Seriously?? No connection at all?

They were not obliged to keep the Law perfectly in order to remain in the land forever?

Jesus did not have to be crucified in order to redeem the Jews from the curse of the Law?

Are we to believe that the Holy Spirit is unable or unwilling to perfect anyone while in the flesh?

That would mean that even the disciples remained fallible and to them Christ entrusted his very ministry as well as presumably the texts that bear their names.

Into fallible hands Jesus entrusted even the power to forgive or condemn through the power of the Holy Spirit?


John 20:22-23

New International Version (NIV)


22 And with that he breathed on them and said, &#8220;Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone&#8217;s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.&#8221;


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

CoonXpress said:


> TL;DR: If Christopher Hitchens was so famous, how come I didn't hear about him until after he died? :shrug:
> Plus this is the only place that seemed that anyone cared enough that he did die.
> 
> ****, the Agnostic Shinto Baptist


I think if you google him you might find a few other places people cared enough.rincess:


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

Here are some interesting quotes from the late C. S. Lewis the author of the Narnia Series and a former atheist. 

C.S. Lewis Quotes &#8211; Life
&#8220;You will never know how much you believe something until it is a matter of life and death.&#8221; &#8220;If you think of this world as a place intended simply for our happiness, you find it quite intolerable: think of it as a place of training and correction and it&#8217;s not so bad.&#8221; &#8211; God in the Dock, page 52.

&#8220;One of the things that distinguishes man from the other animals is that he wants to know things, wants to find out what reality is like, simply for the sake of knowing. When that desire is completely quenched in anyone, I think he has become something less than human.&#8221; &#8211; God in the Dock, page 108.

C.S. Lewis Quotes &#8211; Atheism
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning. . ." &#8211; Mere Christianity

"Now that I am a Christian I do have moods in which the whole thing looks improbable: but when I was an atheist I had moods in which Christianity looked terribly probable." &#8211; Mere Christianity

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. There are traps everywhere -- 'Bibles laid open, millions of surprises,' as Herbert says, 'fine nets and stratagems.' God is, if I may say it, very unscrupulous." &#8211; Surprised by Joy

C.S. Lewis Quotes &#8211; God
My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? - Mere Christianity

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. &#8211; Mere Christianity, pages 40-41.

"You must picture me alone in that room in Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England...But who can duly adore that Love which will open the high gates to a prodigal who is brought in kicking, struggling, resentful, and darting his eyes in every direction for a chance to escape."" &#8211; Surprised by Joy

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. &#8211; Is Theology Poetry?

Some other quotes:
The body of Benjamin Franklin, Printer, lies here, food for worms; but the work shall not be lost, for it will appear once more in a new and more elegant edition, revised and corrected by the Author. Benjamin Franklin

Many who plan to seek God at the eleventh hour die at 10:30. Author Unknown

No man ever repented of being a Christian on his death bed. Hannah More


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

postroad said:


> Seriously?? No connection at all?
> 
> They were not obliged to keep the Law perfectly in order to remain in the land forever?
> 
> ...



Sorry, but the end has already been written and they keep their land and yet we know they were not able to keep the commandments. The only sins a Christian can forgive are sins someone committed against him. If I forgive someone who has wronged me, they are forgiven. I have no authority to forgive sins committed against God.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

But there is worse to come. &#8220;Say what you like,&#8221; we shall be told, &#8220;the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, &#8216;this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.&#8217; And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.&#8221; 

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement &#8220;But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.&#8221; The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side. That they stood thus in the mouth of Jesus himself, and were not merely placed thus by the reporter, we surely need not doubt. Unless the reporter were perfectly honest he would never have recorded the confession of ignorance at all; he could have had no motive for doing so except a desire to tell the whole truth. And unless later copyists were equally honest they would never have preserved the (apparently) mistaken pre-diction about &#8220;this generation&#8221; after the passage of time had shown the (appar-ent) mistake. This passage (Mark 13:30-32) and the cry &#8220;Why hast thou forsaken me?&#8221; (Mark 15:34) together make up the strongest proof that the New Testament is historically reliable. The evangelists have the first great character-istic of honest witnesses: they mention facts which are, at first sight, damaging to their main contention. 

The facts, then, are these: that Jesus professed himself (in some sense) ignorant, and within a moment showed that he really was so. To believe in the Incarnation, to believe that he is God, makes it hard to understand how he could be ignorant; but also makes it certain that, if he said he could be ignorant, then ignorant he could really be. For a God who can be ignorant is less baffling than a God who falsely professes ignorance. The answer of theologians is that the God-Man was omniscient as God, and ignorant as Man. This, no doubt, is true, though it cannot be imagined. Nor indeed can the unconsciousness of Christ in sleep be imagined, nor the twilight of reason in his infancy; still less his merely organic life in his mother's womb. But the physical sciences, no less than theol-ogy, propose for our belief much that cannot be imagined. C.S. Lewis The World's Last Night

Be careful when using Mr Lewis. If he is to be believed then Christ is a false prophet.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

poppy said:


> Sorry, but the end has already been written and they keep their land and yet we know they were not able to keep the commandments. The only sins a Christian can forgive are sins someone committed against him. If I forgive someone who has wronged me, they are forgiven. I have no authority to forgive sins committed against God.



They keep the land permanently only when they keep the Law permanently.


Jeremiah 31:31-34

New International Version (NIV)



31 âThe days are coming,â declares the LORD, 
âwhen I will make a new covenant 
with the people of Israel 
and with the people of Judah. 
32 It will not be like the covenant 
I made with their ancestors 
when I took them by the hand 
to lead them out of Egypt, 
because they broke my covenant, 
though I was a husband to[a] them,*â 
declares the LORD. 
33 âThis is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel 
after that time,â declares the LORD. 
âI will put my law in their minds 
and write it on their hearts. 
I will be their God, 
and they will be my people. 
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, 
or say to one another, âKnow the LORD,â 
because they will all know me, 
from the least of them to the greatest,â 
declares the LORD. 
âFor I will forgive their wickedness 
and will remember their sins no more.â*


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

postroad said:


> But there is worse to come. âSay what you like,â we shall be told, âthe apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, âthis generation shall not pass till all these things be done.â And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.â
> 
> It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement âBut of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.â The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side. That they stood thus in the mouth of Jesus himself, and were not merely placed thus by the reporter, we surely need not doubt. Unless the reporter were perfectly honest he would never have recorded the confession of ignorance at all; he could have had no motive for doing so except a desire to tell the whole truth. And unless later copyists were equally honest they would never have preserved the (apparently) mistaken pre-diction about âthis generationâ after the passage of time had shown the (appar-ent) mistake. This passage (Mark 13:30-32) and the cry âWhy hast thou forsaken me?â (Mark 15:34) together make up the strongest proof that the New Testament is historically reliable. The evangelists have the first great character-istic of honest witnesses: they mention facts which are, at first sight, damaging to their main contention.
> 
> ...


Both of your examples are clearly wrong. Read the verses prior to the "this generation" part to see which generation He was talking about. He was talking about the generation of the fig tree. As to the other example, Christ was teaching as He hung on the Cross. He was telling those that knew the OT that this was Psalms 22 coming to pass before their eyes. Read the first verse of that Book. It is a direct quote. Also read the last verse. It reads " That He hath done ". Christ's last words were " It is finished".


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

poppy said:


> Sorry, but the end has already been written and they keep their land and yet we know they were not able to keep the commandments. The only sins a Christian can forgive are sins someone committed against him. If I forgive someone who has wronged me, they are forgiven. I have no authority to forgive sins committed against God.


I would like to explore your interpretation of the text a little more.

I am interpreting the text as a transfer of authority to forgive or condemn from Christ to the Apostles.

There is the parallel text concerning Peter.


Matthew 16:17-19

New International Version (NIV)



17 Jesus replied, âBlessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades* will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.â 


You interpret that from that point on this power was transferred to all believers but only in matters of personal wrongs?

Does this mean that if you refuse to forgive an individual for some personal wrong that person will be condemned because of a unforgiven sin at the last judgement?

Or imagine the "curse" believers heap upon themselves every time they recite the Lord's prayer.

7.Matthew 6:14
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

8.Matthew 6:15
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
) 
9.Matthew 18:35
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

10.Mark 11:25
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

11.Mark 11:26
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.*


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

poppy said:


> Both of your examples are clearly wrong. Read the verses prior to the "this generation" part to see which generation He was talking about. He was talking about the generation of the fig tree. As to the other example, Christ was teaching as He hung on the Cross. He was telling those that knew the OT that this was Psalms 22 coming to pass before their eyes. Read the first verse of that Book. It is a direct quote. Also read the last verse. It reads " That He hath done ". Christ's last words were " It is finished".


Not mine. C.S. Lewis. Although in his defense the clear reading of the text confirms that Christ and all the believers believed in an imminent return.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

poppy said:


> Sorry, but the end has already been written and they keep their land and yet we know they were not able to keep the commandments. The only sins a Christian can forgive are sins someone committed against him. If I forgive someone who has wronged me, they are forgiven. I have no authority to forgive sins committed against God.


Come on back. I have shown the text supporting my supposedly false interpretation.

Are you really going to insist that Christ transferring the Holy Spirit followed by his statement concerning the forgiveness of sins had no more theological significance than if he uttered "if you paint a sign black than the sign will be black and if white it will be white"?eve

Are we to believe that the individual believer can withhold salvation to those he refuses to forgive as well as himself through the act of withholding sincere forgiveness?


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

> The facts, then, are these: that Jesus professed himself (in some sense) ignorant, and within a moment showed that he really was so. To believe in the Incarnation, to believe that he is God, makes it hard to understand how he could be ignorant; but also makes it certain that, if he said he could be ignorant, then ignorant he could really be. For a God who can be ignorant is less baffling than a God who falsely professes ignorance. The answer of theologians is that the God-Man was omniscient as God, and ignorant as Man. This, no doubt, is true, though it cannot be imagined. Nor indeed can the unconsciousness of Christ in sleep be imagined, nor the twilight of reason in his infancy; still less his merely organic life in his mother's womb. But the physical sciences, no less than theol-ogy, propose for our belief much that cannot be imagined. C.S. Lewis The World's Last Night


I wish that Mr. Lewis could have read this. 



> Jesus did not do all that he could have done, because certain things were not his Father's will for him (See Matthew 26:53-54 below*). Jesus did not consciously know all that he might have known but only what the Father willed him to know. For instance, the reason he did not know the date of his return was not that he had given up the power to know all things at the incarnation. The reason was that the Father had not willed that he should have this particular piece of knowledge while on earth prior to his passion. So Jesus' knowledge was limited by the will of the Father for the Son while on earth. In our moments of frustration over our limited earthly understanding, we can recall that the Son of God was subject to the will of the Father just as we are. --J. I. Packer _Knowing God_
> 
> * _Matthew 26:53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
> 
> 54But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?_


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Perhaps it was the Father's will that Jesus remain ignorant after he ascended to heaven?

Revelation 3:11
I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Revelation 11:14
The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

Revelation 22:7
&#8220;Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.&#8221;

Revelation 22:12
[ Epilogue: Invitation and Warning ] &#8220;Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

Revelation 22:20
He who testifies to these things says, &#8220;Yes, I am coming soon.&#8221; Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

My curiosity has been roused. How many denominations of Christianity believe that the power to absolve or retain sin rest in the hands of an ordained priest, minister, pastor, etc?

I am aware that Catholics use the texts to support that only ordained priests "hold the keys to the kingdom" as it were. Pretty sure Lutherans and Anglicans as well.

Any others.

In theory any denomination that practices excommunication must necessarily hold the view?


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

2 Corinthians 10:4-6

New International Version (NIV)


4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

For any who are serious about finding answers to atheism, there's a book by John Blanchard. He is quite good at answering the questions of unbelievers and has written many smaller booklets. The book is called _Does God Believe in Atheists? _ It is a big book, over 600 pages. I bought two for Christmas gifts and read the appendix at the end which contains Blanchard's small paperback called _Dealing with Dawkins_. 

http://www.amazon.com/Dealing-Dawkins-John-Blanchard/dp/0852347154

That section was so good that it made me want to buy the book for myself. 

_Does God Believe in Atheists?_ the larger book:http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=john+blanchard&x=16&y=18

The reviews at Amazon were interesting, especially the first one that was written by an unbeliever who is also a scientist.
Reviews of the book: http://www.amazon.com/Does-Believe-Atheists-John-Blanchard/product-reviews/0852344600/ref=cm_cr_pr_top_link_1?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

For those who are serious to finding answers to religion, there's The Atheist Manifesto, by Michel Onfray. Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins and many other atheist writers have also written books helping to explain atheism to those who don't understand it.:clap:


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

poppy said:


> Now he knows he was wrong.


Or not.


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## rabbitgeek (Mar 22, 2008)

Hugh Hewitt, the conservative talk show host who also happens to be a Christian, was host to many discussions with Christopher Hitchens on the radio. I was always impressed with intellect of Hitchens, even though I do not agree with his atheist position. He did not scream, he did not rant. 

You can read the transcript of the last interview with Hitchens, July 14, 2010, which Hewitt replayed on Dec 23 2011 and described as
"a three hour exploration of his autobiography Hitch22, which first aired in July 2010, after his diagnosis and original round of treatment for cancer. The Hitch archive from my show is up to 60 chats, but this is the most comprehensive review of his life and work, and I hope you take time to enjoy listening to one of the great workers in words of our time."

http://www.hughhewitt.com/blog/g/3979a77d-720a-4853-8890-1fc4f22c23cb

Have a good day!


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## PurpleMartineer (Apr 12, 2008)

The new covenant of Jeremiah is COMING. Not here yet.


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