# Private vs. Public Education



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Private wins. Anyone surprised?

https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/dashboards/schools_dashboard.aspx


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Not even a little. I have seen the results of both and private consistently out produces public schools. I know there will be a few examples of the opposite, but, overall.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Farmerga said:


> Not even a little. I have seen the results of both and private consistently out produces public schools. I know there will be a few examples of the opposite, but, overall.


 I wish they put home schooled in there


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

Best schooling I ever received in my youth was by my mom. Later on, it was to a private university to study electronics engineering. Public schooling is a "cheap" solution to day long babysitting.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

If that is real true, than we can pack and leave the world to the others...
Cause majority will not be able to pay for it...and its not going to be better soon...
So lets hope that real schools drop out some real good results as well...
And as soon i look at college prices...and minimum hire requirements there days...outch


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

It likely has more to do with the parents than whether it is public or private. Generally, I think kids that go to private schools have parents that are more concerned with their children's education than the parents of kids in public school. Put another way, a much higher percentage of parents of kids in private schools are highly concerned with their kid's education than parents of kids in public schools.

You also probably have fewer problem kids in private schools so teachers can focus on teaching. Private schools also can get rid of problem kids much easier than public schools can.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MoonRiver said:


> It likely has more to do with the parents than whether it is public or private. Generally, I think kids that go to private schools have parents that are more concerned with their children's education than the parents of lids in public school. Put another way, a much higher percentage of parents of kids in private schools are highly concerned with their kid's education than parents of kids in public schools.
> 
> You also probably have fewer problem kids in private schools so teachers can focus on teaching. Private schools also can get rid of problem kids much easier than public schools can.


I am sure there are endless excuses we can make for pubic schools.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

As a former teacher in a small rural public school, I will attest that it isn't worth the time or energy to talk about. Public schools are failing the students.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

I think that once the Federal Government got involved in education, the system broke down. Although, I am a product of Department of Defense schools as my dad was military and we lived overseas a great deal. I thought those teachers did a fabulous job.


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## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

I agree that public schools are pretty awful but I'd say a lot of this is still selection bias as MoonRiver suggested. I am not convinced that school really amounts to much for most folks in any case... I spent most of my time in middle and the 1-2 yrs I was in high school skipping. I still tested well enough to get a scholarship to college, which I proceeded to waste (book smart but not particularly wise) and eventually got kicked out there as well.

These numbers need to go through studies that control for general intelligence and personality (both of which are hereditary) as well as parental involvement. If they do that I'm sure they'll still see an advantage to private schools but much of the difference may disappear.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Get back to me when you find the data on a private school that accepts everyone who shows up, must provide transportation and can’t toss out the challenging students on a whim.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Get back to me when you find the data on a private school that accepts everyone who shows up, must provide transportation and can’t toss out the challenging students on a whim.


Constant excuses are why public schools often fail.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

HDRider said:


> I wish they put home schooled in there


 I agree, home schooled kids are way above normal education.



Meinecke said:


> If that is real true, than we can pack and leave the world to the others...
> Cause majority will not be able to pay for it...and its not going to be better soon...
> So lets hope that real schools drop out some real good results as well...
> And as soon i look at college prices...and minimum hire requirements there days...outch


 Businesses used to require higher education, I did 2 weeks in the 9th grade and have beat out many degree holders time and time again,...higher education does not hold the same place it did years ago......in most jobs it is not even desirable anymore.



SLFarmMI said:


> Get back to me when you find the data on a private school that accepts everyone who shows up, must provide transportation and can’t toss out the challenging students on a whim.


 Some people are uneducatable,.....to the degree you suggest anyway,......problem people will suffer their own inflicted rewards in all things.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> Get back to me when you find the data on a private school that accepts everyone who shows up, must provide transportation and can’t toss out the challenging students on a whim.


The race to the bottom is caused by trying to mainstream every student. I agree with you. Some should be turned out.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Meinecke said:


> Cause majority will not be able to pay for it...and its not going to be better soon...


 Oh they pay, its called taxes, they pay thru the nose for poor education......a few pennies at a time for life......


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Constant excuses are why public schools often fail.


I think lack of accountability, burgeoning bureaucracy, tenure, there is a long list of reasons it fails. The primary reason is that no government program delivers good results.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> The race to the bottom is caused by trying to mainstream every student. I agree with you. Some should be turned out.


You missed the point. It is a common misconception that private schools are somehow inherently better. They aren’t. 

What people don’t realize, or seem to care about, is that private schools cherry pick the students they allow to attend. If your student needs extra help, they are excluded. If you can’t afford to provide transportation, your child is excluded (makes it easy to keep those poor kids out). If your child needs speech therapy, for example, if they allow your child to enroll, the public schools are mandated to provide those services thus freeing the private school to use their budget elsewhere. 

These private vs public school comparisons are flawed because they do not compare apples to apples. Try comparing two schools in the same neighborhood, accepting all comers, and providing all services and then get back to me.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> You missed the point. It is a common misconception that private schools are somehow inherently better. They aren’t.
> 
> What people don’t realize, or seem to care about, is that private schools cherry pick the students they allow to attend. If your student needs extra help, they are excluded. If you can’t afford to provide transportation, your child is excluded (makes it easy to keep those poor kids out). If your child needs speech therapy, for example, if they allow your child to enroll, the public schools are mandated to provide those services thus freeing the private school to use their budget elsewhere.
> 
> These private vs public school comparisons are flawed because they do not compare apples to apples. Try comparing two schools in the same neighborhood, accepting all comers, and providing all services and then get back to me.


You are a public school teacher, right?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> You missed the point. It is a common misconception that private schools are somehow inherently better. They aren’t.
> 
> What people don’t realize, or seem to care about, is that private schools cherry pick the students they allow to attend. If your student needs extra help, they are excluded. If you can’t afford to provide transportation, your child is excluded (makes it easy to keep those poor kids out). If your child needs speech therapy, for example, if they allow your child to enroll, the public schools are mandated to provide those services thus freeing the private school to use their budget elsewhere.
> 
> These private vs public school comparisons are flawed because they do not compare apples to apples. Try comparing two schools in the same neighborhood, accepting all comers, and providing all services and then get back to me.


Why would I want to send my kids to someplace that accepts every delinquent, allows them to disrupt class, lower the learning and grading curve, pushes failing students thru each level, and continually fails to prevent bullying?
Nope.
Private schools did right for me. Public schools were even a stretch to say they gave my kids anything close to comparable.
I could care less if it is apples to apples. Apples are for teachers.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Sent my kids to private school so they would have an education where they fit in. Both are well above average and had to test into the school. When they went to public high school, I moved to a different town as the HS they would have gone to said "IF your child goes to college" The town I moved to said "WHEN your kids go to college". This was 35 years ago when college meant something.

Son's boys both are in Charter schools.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Meinecke said:


> If that is real true, than we can pack and leave the world to the others...
> Cause majority will not be able to pay for it...and its not going to be better soon...
> So lets hope that real schools drop out some real good results as well...
> And as soon i look at college prices...and minimum hire requirements there days...outch


The cost per student isn't that much different. It is how the cost is spread about. I do know that I got a fine education back in the day from public school. My nieces and nephews are blessed to live in a good school district and seem to be getting a fine education. I wouldn't send my dogs to the public schools in the county that I reside in. And, from my interactions with the school aged children from the neighboring counties, they aren't any better.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

I'd like to see the breakdown include DoD schools too (schools on military bases). The only time I ever felt like my kids were getting a decent education when they were in school was in DoD schools. 

The interesting part is that DoD schools usually follow the curriculum of the school district they would be in, so they're not teaching anything different than whatever public school is in the nearby community. The big difference from my experience comes from the no-nonsense attitude toward behavior. If your kid is a little jerk, you as the military parent get in trouble. If your kid is enough of a jerk and you don't fix it, your kid gets expelled and you have to figure out how you're getting Jerk Jr. to whatever school will take him/her.

When my son was in second grade, he was part of a math challenge that pitted a few elementary schools in the area against each other. We were having a match with a few other schools at the town nearest the base, and one of the teachers walks up to me and a couple of the other moms and says, "You all are the Camp ____ team, yes?" We all nodded and asked why (thinking someone's little angel did something bad), she says, "Oh, I can always tell the kids from the base, they are the most well behaved children most of the time."

I say all of this with the caveat that my children have only ever gone to Marine Corps DoD schools. Other services may differ, but the schools on USMC bases do not mess around.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Mish said:


> I'd like to see the breakdown include DoD schools too (schools on military bases). The only time I ever felt like my kids were getting a decent education when they were in school was in DoD schools.
> 
> The interesting part is that DoD schools usually follow the curriculum of the school district they would be in, so they're not teaching anything different than whatever public school is in the nearby community. The big difference from my experience comes from the no-nonsense attitude toward behavior. If your kid is a little jerk, you as the military parent get in trouble. If your kid is enough of a jerk and you don't fix it, your kid gets expelled and you have to figure out how you're getting Jerk Jr. to whatever school will take him/her.
> 
> ...


I am glad you had great experiences. The trouble off base in NC is the schools cannot refuse or expel those same students the base does because of the state constitution being twisted by judges.

When I was in school, they would make examples of a couple really bad apples the first couple of days and the others fell into line. With the Federal requirements, you cannot do that without losing Federal funding and no public school can afford that so they stay and cause trouble all year. Which lowers education for the rest.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

It has been known for a long time that private education is better. I think one reason is parents with kids in private school are more likely to get involved in their kid's education and managing their progress. Public schools are failing miserably and getting worse all the time. They don't seem to teach much of anything nowadays. Here they no longer teach cursive writing because they say it isn't needed since everything is going to be done on computers. My grandson in the 8th grade jr. high/ high school told me yesterday they replaced all the regular clocks with digital ones because too many students couldn't tell time on a regular clock and were late to class. Of course telling time should be taught by parents before a kid even goes to kindergarten but I would think the schools could squeeze in a couple days of learning students to tell time but maybe that's too much to ask of those highly trained professionals.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

I find it amazing that there are so many educational experts on this board. I doubt most of you have been in a school in decades yet you know all about it.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

HDRider said:


> I think lack of accountability, burgeoning bureaucracy, tenure, there is a long list of reasons it fails. The primary reason is that no government program delivers good results.


The government really should stick to what they are good at.... Blowing stuff up. No child should ever be allowed any contact with them until they are old enough to enlist.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> I find it amazing that there are so many educational experts on this board. I doubt most of you have been in a school in decades yet you know all about it.


Odd you would make a statement like that.... I'm 68 and still learning new stuff every day... Education stops when breathing does.


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## miggyb (May 2, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Private wins. Anyone surprised?
> 
> https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/dashboards/schools_dashboard.aspx


https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12/us/college-admission-cheating-scheme/index.html 

Surprised, not at all. Part and parcel of a table that is consistently "tipped" in favor of the wealthy. Education and healthcare, if you can afford it. Not qualified, for admission? Not a problem, if you can afford it. Sick and dying? we can fix that, if you can pay. Some are intent on keeping the worker drone population "stocked" 
*“Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.” ― W.B. Yeats *and that is the threat of public education. As always, in my opinion.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> I find it amazing that there are so many educational experts on this board. I doubt most of you have been in a school in decades yet you know all about it.


I'm in public schools quite a bit. We have been hands on experts in our kids education from 1994 until now, so I know what works for us, and that is the single most important issue to me. I don't see a condemnation of the teachers here so much as the system itself, but it might be that you are so close to the tree that you do not see the forest around you.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

SLFarmMI said:


> I find it amazing that there are so many educational experts on this board. I doubt most of you have been in a school in decades yet you know all about it.


The best knowledge comes from the common man with no vested interest, the casual observer...….

The so called "Experts" are the problem,they are running the schools now, believing they know best, the failed results are there for anyone to see.




Modern schools are day care centers, training centers to establish a regular schedule of getting up and enduring something for 8 hours a day and for the wide spread programming of universal propaganda.


Where the brightest students are driven down even and the most daft are propped up,...….some people are destined to be trash collectors and some scientists,....the world needs both. Far too little time is spent on the brightest ones and far too much on the ignoramuses. 


I see modern schools as marginally better than a automaton factory.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> You are a public school teacher, right?


Yes she is and even though I agree with your op, she has a valid point.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> As a former teacher in a small rural public school, I will attest that it isn't worth the time or energy to talk about. Public schools are failing the students.



Yep....did 8 years teaching public high school. Babysitting them until they were 18 was the primary mission. If you could teach them something in addition, great.....but don't forget the primary mission.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I suspect private vs. public education is growing the divide between have and have-nots.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I went to a very small school, I think this year's graduating class will be around 10. Being that everybody knows or is related to each other, the kids that are disruptive generally get called out by quite a few people. Education is valued and not allowed to be impeded by the ones that won't behave. Very lucky to have had the opportunity to be here.

I do know middle class parents that work extra jobs to send their kids to private schools. It isn't only the education it's also to safety of the kids that concern many parents.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

shawnlee said:


> The best knowledge comes from the common man with no vested interest, the casual observer...….
> 
> The so called "Experts" are the problem,they are running the schools now, believing they know best, the failed results are there for anyone to see.
> 
> ...


What a load of BS! Your post illustrates that you really have no clue about public education.

BTW, the experts are not running the schools. Do you really think anyone asks the teachers, social workers, speech therapists, occupational therapists, paraprofessionals, principals, etc. what policies, procedures, instructional practices, etc. would work? I guarantee you that no one is asking us one thing and they sure aren’t listening to our input.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> I'm in public schools quite a bit. We have been hands on experts in our kids education from 1994 until now, so I know what works for us, and that is the single most important issue to me. I don't see a condemnation of the teachers here so much as the system itself, but it might be that you are so close to the tree that you do not see the forest around you.


I see the forest just fine. I never said education was perfect with no issues. Yes, we have issues but they are not at all what most posters on this thread are going on about. And those issues could be addressed much more easily if we, as a nation, would set a policy and then give it time to work. But we don’t do that. Every time there is a new administration or some special interest group gets a politician’s ear, those politicians feel the need to remake education in their image. 

Take a look at the country that has made the most significant educational improvements over time, Norway. They took a hard look at the issues with their educational system, said whatever is Norwegian for, “we’re in trouble here, we better get our poop in a group”, set policy based on research and then gave it time to work. They didn’t jump on and off the bandwagon like we do. And the kicker here is that the vast majority of the research that Norway used to make their educational improvements came out of the US. 

We need to do what Norway did and look at research, set national policy and then give it time to work. We need to also stop trying to drain away resources from public education and funnel it into private and for-profit entities.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> What a load of BS! Your post illustrates that you really have no clue about public education.
> 
> BTW, the experts are not running the schools. Do you really think anyone asks the teachers, social workers, speech therapists, occupational therapists, paraprofessionals, principals, etc. what policies, procedures, instructional practices, etc. would work? I guarantee you that no one is asking us one thing and they sure aren’t listening to our input.


I think that's why a lot of us choose private school, charter schools or home school. Where teachers and parents get to have actual input in the system.

I absolutely do not blame the teachers. One of my sisters-in-law is a special education teacher (her stories make my hair curl) and another was a teacher but now works for the teacher's union (which also makes my hair curl but in a different way). I have (now adult) children who had interesting experiences with with various types of schools, one special needs so I've been through the mess that is the IEP/special education system for many, many years. I've been a teacher's aid, a class mom, and afterward had home schooled for many years when I recognized that the system was more harmful than helpful to my specific children. 

You're correct in that I'm not a teacher, but I've had extensive experience with the system. I don't blame teachers, like I said, but something is rotten in the public school system and you don't have to be a teacher to recognize it or have theories as to what it is.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

no really said:


> I went to a very small school, I think this year's graduating class will be around 10. Being that everybody knows or is related to each other, the kids that are disruptive generally get called out by quite a few people. Education is valued and not allowed to be impeded by the ones that won't behave. Very lucky to have had the opportunity to be here.
> 
> I do know middle class parents that work extra jobs to send their kids to private schools. It isn't only the education it's also to safety of the kids that concern many parents.


I think the mega school are a very, very bad idea for many reasons.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> What a load of BS! Your post illustrates that you really have no clue about public education.
> 
> BTW, the experts are not running the schools. Do you really think anyone asks the teachers, social workers, speech therapists, occupational therapists, paraprofessionals, principals, etc. what policies, procedures, instructional practices, etc. would work? I guarantee you that no one is asking us one thing and *they sure aren’t listening to our input*.


THEY are the experts.

You are the one that turns the screwdriver. 

Don't you think your opinion would carry more weight in a smaller, less bureaucratic environment? I think teachers are the only thing keeping the public education boat afloat.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> I think the mega school are a very, very bad idea for many reasons.


That I absolutely agree with.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> THEY are the experts.
> 
> You are the one that turns the screwdriver.
> 
> Don't you think your opinion would carry more weight in a smaller, less bureaucratic environment? I think teachers are the only thing keeping the public education boat afloat.


No, I don’t. I have relatives and friends that have taught in both private schools and for-profit charter schools and they were treated like absolute garbage. 

And I would argue that my education, experience and training does indeed qualify me as an expert in my field.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, I don’t. I have relatives and friends that have taught in both private schools and for-profit charter schools and they were treated like absolute garbage.
> 
> And I would argue that my education, experience and training does indeed qualify me as an expert in my field.


I agree, you are the expert. You simply have no say.

I saw it in big companies all the time. Some engineer would rant and rave about the idiot GM, or VP. He'd very often be right, but he was a not an influencer or a decision maker.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

miggyb said:


> https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12/us/college-admission-cheating-scheme/index.html
> 
> Surprised, not at all. Part and parcel of a table that is consistently "tipped" in favor of the wealthy. Education and healthcare, if you can afford it. Not qualified, for admission? Not a problem, if you can afford it. Sick and dying? we can fix that, if you can pay. Some are intent on keeping the worker drone population "stocked"
> *“Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.” ― W.B. Yeats *and that is the threat of public education. As always, in my opinion.


I don't see the table being tipped in either direction. I live in an economically depressed area. A rural county in the foothills of appachian mountains. Kids are furnished twelve years of free (to them) education whether rich or poor, male or female, white brown, yellow, red or pink with purple polka dots. The first ten of those years are mandatory for all! I've lived in the county for right at forty years and have yet to see a single person denied needed health care for any reason. 

The table is level, some of the players just don't want to play to win. They would rather sing and dance while the sun shines than to make hay, then whine and cry when it's snowing..... Bbbbut those rich guys hogged up all the hay... Gimme some!


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

SLFarmMI said:


> What a load of BS! Your post illustrates that you really have no clue about public education.
> 
> BTW, the experts are not running the schools. Do you really think anyone asks the teachers, social workers, speech therapists, occupational therapists, paraprofessionals, principals, etc. what policies, procedures, instructional practices, etc. would work? I guarantee you that no one is asking us one thing and they sure aren’t listening to our input.


 While I applaud your efforts, I have quit many jobs because of what you describe,...….if no one will support it, it changes.



HDRider said:


> I think teachers are the only thing keeping the public education boat afloat.


 I agree 100% ,...….my post was about the "system".


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## miggyb (May 2, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I don't see the table being tipped in either direction. I live in an economically depressed area. A rural county in the foothills of appachian mountains. Kids are furnished twelve years of free (to them) education whether rich or poor, male or female, white brown, yellow, red or pink with purple polka dots. The first ten of those years are mandatory for all! I've lived in the county for right at forty years and have yet to see a single person denied needed health care for any reason.
> 
> The table is level, some of the players just don't want to play to win. They would rather sing and dance while the sun shines than to make hay, then whine and cry when it's snowing..... Bbbbut those rich guys hogged up all the hay... Gimme some!


 https://www.prb.org/appalachia-education-unemployment/
https://khn.org/news/health-gap-widens-between-appalachia-and-rest-of-the-u-s/
Some stats addressing your points and how your area fares re: a "level table". A bleak picture is painted. You only know, what you have experienced or considered adequate education and medical care. Perhaps, you have nothing to compare it to. That's not your fault. I believe, your naivete is a product of this. A trip to the big city might be in order.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

A trip to the big city may or may not be enlightening. However, the quote you addressed above is his micro evaluation rather than the big picture, and valid to his point.
I also can state that I am an expert in what matters, my kids education and safety. Whatever the big city is doing or not doing is irrelevant for them. Large schools, large government oversight, sorry not what I am interested in.
I shouldn't have to be concerned that a teacher's hands are tied, that the school board is inept, and the budgets are threadbare.
If it becomes every parent's extended responsibility to make sure the public school system is performing how it was intended, then it is a tragic waste of taxpayer money. In many cases, less effort can be made to keep them home.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, I don’t. I have relatives and friends that have taught in both private schools and for-profit charter schools and they were treated like absolute garbage.
> 
> And I would argue that my education, experience and training does indeed qualify me as an expert in my field.


I have seen no more difference in the manner that private school teachers were treated than the public teachers were, other than unions didn't become a jam car to eliminating the incompetent.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> A trip to the big city may or may not be enlightening. However, the quote you addressed above is his micro evaluation rather than the big picture, and valid to his point.
> I also can state that I am an expert in what matters, my kids education and safety. Whatever the big city is doing or not doing is irrelevant for them. Large schools, large government oversight, sorry not what I am interested in.
> I shouldn't have to be concerned that a teacher's hands are tied, that the school board is inept, and the budgets are threadbare.
> If it becomes every parent's extended responsibility to make sure the public school system is performing how it was intended, then it is a tragic waste of taxpayer money. In many cases, less effort can be made to keep them home.


You point out our biggest failing, trust in the system. More and more people are learning that trust was misplaced. 

The unanswered question is what comes next. Some think we need to double down, more money, bigger everything. Some think big hides rot, and believe we should pare back.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SLFarmMI said:


> We need to do what Norway did and look at research, set national policy and then give it time to work. We need to also stop trying to drain away resources from public education and funnel it into private and for-profit entities.


When the education system fails it's mission, it's teachers and the kids, it has no business making determinations about the viability and legitimacy of private institutions. The "more money" for public schools mantra is tired.
A woman or man can teach his kids for pennies on the dollar and give them infinitely more than the public system.
It should never be either or; either or does not represent the many families that are currently being served a poor ROI on their kid's schooling.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Norway, with maybe 1 million students , mostly one ethnicity. Highly educated parents, earning a very good wage.

There are 1,126,501 students in the NYC school system, the largest school district in the United States. Of those students:


13.2 percent don't speak English 
20.2 percent are students with disabilities
72.8 percent are economically disadvantaged
Race or ethnicity:
40.6 percent Hispanic
25.5 percent black
16.2 percent Asian
15.1 percent white

We are NOT Norway.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Chicago public schools, currently under strike hav the following-
27% of the students do not graduate.
38% are chronically truant.
In many of their elementary schools, only 25% of students are performing at state mandated standards.
and on and on and on, and they want more money to make it all better. AND, they want to decide for you what type of education your children should receive and where they should get it.

That my friends, does not seem like a smart investment, and it doesn't seem like allowing parents to "funnel" money away from their school districts and into outside programs is the reason for their shortcomings.

Sorry, that is A Big Fail.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

miggyb said:


> https://www.prb.org/appalachia-education-unemployment/
> https://khn.org/news/health-gap-widens-between-appalachia-and-rest-of-the-u-s/
> Some stats addressing your points and how your area fares re: a "level table". A bleak picture is painted. You only know, what you have experienced or considered adequate education and medical care. Perhaps, you have nothing to compare it to. That's not your fault. I believe, your naivete is a product of this. A trip to the big city might be in order.


Oh my, I've been to the big cities more than I care to remember. Lived in them for several years. No thanks. After reading your first link it only proves what this poor bumpkin already new.... That city folks just can't see passed their own noses. What they blatantly overlooked in their "findings" is relatively simple.... In rural Appalachia there's is fewer bachelor degree type jobs to be filled! Good grief, how did those smart guys miss that? Your dealing with a couple coal companies and a bunch of one horse saw mills and a few hillside farmers for employment....

Now, I'm going to check out your second link and see if I can find some usable information there.

Ok, that dint take long. Again my suspicions were confirmed. Most of the Medical care disparity has very little to do with availability of quality care. We have good docs and facilities here. It has far more to do with individuals personal life styles. Things like obesity, smoking, accidental deaths etc.... That stuff isn't because the table is skewed... That's about personal choices. Me? I like good tasty food, might not be good for me but I'm not giving it up to be miserable and Hungry for two more months of life. Same with my smoking and alcohol use. If I lose ten years because of it... Big deal... Think about which ten years I miss.... Ten years of misery? I'll take my 68 happy years and exit if the good lord calls me home tonight.


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## miggyb (May 2, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> A trip to the big city may or may not be enlightening. However, the quote you addressed above is his micro evaluation rather than the big picture, and valid to his point.
> I also can state that I am an expert in what matters, my kids education and safety. Whatever the big city is doing or not doing is irrelevant for them. Large schools, large government oversight, sorry not what I am interested in.
> I shouldn't have to be concerned that a teacher's hands are tied, that the school board is inept, and the budgets are threadbare.
> If it becomes every parent's extended responsibility to make sure the public school system is performing how it was intended, then it is a tragic waste of taxpayer money. In many cases, less effort can be made to keep them home.


A "micro evaluation" yes,valid to his point, I don't live there, I can only go by the links I provided that show his point is skewed. I was addressing the "big picture" in my post, that the poster answered. How your children develop and mature will determine your expertise, not your proclamation.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

miggyb said:


> https://www.prb.org/appalachia-education-unemployment/
> https://khn.org/news/health-gap-widens-between-appalachia-and-rest-of-the-u-s/
> Some stats addressing your points and how your area fares re: a "level table". A bleak picture is painted. You only know, what you have experienced or considered adequate education and medical care. Perhaps, you have nothing to compare it to. That's not your fault. I believe, your naivete is a product of this. A trip to the big city might be in order.


Taking a country boy into town is not always a good idea. My father told me a story of when he went to Seattle back in the '70's. He was walking down the street and started looking up. Then he stopped and stared at one spot. People on the sidewalk also stopped and stared at the same thing. Pretty soon traffic was stopping and looking. Then he just calmly walked away while everyone else was looking at nothing. 

Y'all just be glad I'm not as ornery as him. 

_*I don't think anyway*. _


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mreynolds said:


> Taking a country boy into town is not always a good idea. My father told me a story of when he went to Seattle back in the '70's. He was walking down the street and started looking up. Then he stopped and stared at one spot. People on the sidewalk also stopped and stared at the same thing. Pretty soon traffic was stopping and looking. Then he just calmly walked away while everyone else was looking at nothing.
> 
> Y'all just be glad I'm not as ornery as him.
> 
> _*I don't think anyway*. _


Bringing the city boy to the country can be good for a lot of laughs though! Been there done that too many times! Could be why I'm still alive.... Still have some karma to sort befor my next step!


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> Norway, with maybe 1 million students , mostly one ethnicity. Highly educated parents, earning a very good wage.
> 
> There are 1,126,501 students in the NYC school system, the largest school district in the United States. Of those students:
> 
> ...


I am aware of our demographics. Are you missing the point that Norway made national policy decisions based on research (mostly ours) and stayed the course rather than jumping on and off innumerable bandwagons? Or are you attempting to suggest that children in certain demographics can’t learn?


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## midlifecrisis317 (Aug 4, 2019)

I spend a lot of time with folks educated all over the world. I have a child in the Upstate NY state public schools and she's doing exceptionally well but damn, she's an outlier. I'm from Jersey and sent 2 decades in MA. I spent a lot of time in well funded public schools. 

We are failing our kids because we do not spend enough on education. South east - this means YOU! Republicans - you are the reason why our schools are failing our children.

In short:
We are not spending enough on public education.
We spend more on sports than education.
We do not pay teachers enough (repeat this a few times)
We are not charging billionaires enough - they have more than enough to fund education in America- Vote democrat.
We do not educate parents on how to support teachers and students.
We spend more on cable TV than we do on educational TV.

The greatest curse this country faces is the republican administration that champions religion over education.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

HDRider said:


> The race to the bottom is caused by trying to mainstream every student. I agree with you. Some should be turned out.


Mainstreaming is NOT always the best thing, for a special-needs child OR their classmates. Most of the time it is, but there are definitely situations where it benefits nobody.

This debate rages in my own town, and sadly, some people on Facebook, etc. stop just short of saying that we should go back to segregated schools. Really. Just get those darker-than-a-paper-bag kids away from my kids, and problem solved.

No, it isn't.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> No, I don’t. I have relatives and friends that have taught in both private schools and for-profit charter schools and they were treated like absolute garbage.
> 
> And I would argue that my education, experience and training does indeed qualify me as an expert in my field.


The charter schools I've heard about are almost always dumping grounds for the worst kids, and the worst teachers who for whatever reason can't be fired. No, they're not gonna save the world, mmmkay? Neither will school uniforms.

My brother and his wife lived, before they had their kids, in Kansas City, MO and Houston, TX and they met TEACHERS who homeschooled! They knew that these were not cities where they would want to raise their future children, and they didn't. And this was in an era when most HSers were considered fringe wackadoodles.

Kansas City had the highest per capita cost for public education, and here's why (or one reason, anyway): If a child didn't show up to school on time, they would call cabs - that's right, taxis - to pick the kids up and take them to school! You can guess the rest - many parents wouldn't bother taking their kids to school, because they knew the school would send a cab for them.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SLFarmMI said:


> I am aware of our demographics. Are you missing the point that Norway made national policy decisions based on research (mostly ours) and stayed the course rather than jumping on and off innumerable bandwagons? Or are you attempting to suggest that children in certain demographics can’t learn?


I am suggesting we have daunting challenges. I am saying flat out, our public education system is broken.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

thesedays said:


> The charter schools I've heard about are almost always dumping grounds for the worst kids, and the worst teachers who for whatever reason can't be fired. No, they're not gonna save the world, mmmkay? Neither will school uniforms.
> 
> My brother and his wife lived, before they had their kids, in Kansas City, MO and Houston, TX and they met TEACHERS who homeschooled! They knew that these were not cities where they would want to raise their future children, and they didn't. And this was in an era when most HSers were considered fringe wackadoodles.
> 
> Kansas City had the highest per capita cost for public education, and here's why (or one reason, anyway): If a child didn't show up to school on time, they would call cabs - that's right, taxis - to pick the kids up and take them to school! You can guess the rest - many parents wouldn't bother taking their kids to school, because they knew the school would send a cab for them.


That cab ride is a perfect example of how bloated bureaucracy has corrupted education.

That school spent $30 for the cab so they could collect their per head amount.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

midlifecrisis317 said:


> I spend a lot of time with folks educated all over the world. I have a child in the Upstate NY state public schools and she's doing exceptionally well but damn, she's an outlier. I'm from Jersey and sent 2 decades in MA. I spent a lot of time in well funded public schools.
> 
> We are failing our kids because we do not spend enough on education. South east - this means YOU! Republicans - you are the reason why our schools are failing our children.
> 
> ...


That doesn't even pass the straight face test.
By "We" I think you must mean you. Feel free to dig deeper. 
I spend, and continue to spend, and will spend until I pass, way more on kid's education that I will get in return.
I didn't think the "more money fixes all" mantra was still a talking point.
Blaming a political group for bad education? Are Democrats responsible for murdering babies?
Why not just pay the parents to teach their kids. We already pay folks to stay home and unmarried.
Either you had to subscribe to these talking points before you accepted the job as a penny a post work at home influencer or you just haven't followed the progression of events taking place in our school systems.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

HDRider said:


> I am suggesting we have daunting challenges. I am saying flat out, our public education system is broken.


We agree that there are daunting challenges. 
Are parts of the system screwed up? Yes. The system as a whole? No.
Do we need to invest more money? This may shock you coming from a public school teacher but I really don’t think so. I think that many solutions can be had by spending our education dollars differently.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> We agree that there are daunting challenges.
> Are parts of the system screwed up? Yes. The system as a whole? No.
> Do we need to invest more money? This may shock you coming from a public school teacher but I really don’t think so. I think that many solutions can be had by spending our education dollars differently.


Me too, one good way would be to give parents the choice of the funds going to private schools.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Me too, one good way would be to give parents the choice of the funds going to private schools.


That would be an example of a terrible idea.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Contestat- I'll take "Nonsense" for $200 Wink.
Wink-"The answer is 'Nothing."
Contestant- "Uh, what does government know better about regarding your family than you do?"

DING! DING! DING!

You have just won a NEW CAR!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

H


SLFarmMI said:


> That would be an example of a terrible idea.


How so? Seems only fair to allow the funding for education be spent where the kids get an education, be it public or private educators? Putting more kids in private schools should lessen the burdens on the public schools. Let the funds go where the kids go.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> That would be an example of a terrible idea.


Why so?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> Why so?


Why should public funds go to entities such as private schools that discriminate against students?


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Why should my portion of those funds go to a institution that doesn't meet the needs


SLFarmMI said:


> Why should public funds go to entities such as private schools that discriminate against students?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> Why should public funds go to entities such as private schools that discriminate against students?


Taxpayer funds should go to educate the taxpayer's kids in the way they see fit.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

no really said:


> Taxpayer funds should go to educate the taxpayer's kids in the way they see fit.


Not one cent should go to entities that discriminate against children.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

SLFarmMI said:


> Not one cent should go to entities that discriminate against children.


I feel like the school systems as they stand now are discriminating against children, in particular the advanced and middle of the road kids. The schools seem to be concentrating a great deal of time and money on children with issues, leaving others behind.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

no really said:


> I feel like the school systems as they stand now are discriminating against children, in particular the advanced and middle of the road kids. The schools seem to be concentrating a great deal of time and money on children with issues, leaving others behind.


There are plenty of things happening for advanced and “middle of the road” kids. Those things just don’t get a lot of press.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

This thread is a hoot! 

What with prickly egos and opinions that show a blatant lack of knowledge.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

My son went to public schools, they failed him in epic fashion. He was constantly bullied by his peers and faculty. When he got in fights, it was always his fault. My daughter is going to private school, she is doing exceptionally well, and happy. We still have tp pay for "public education" AND her school too. Vouchers are needed, and anyone who thinks this is a bad thing is just stuck in the past and needs to get up to speed with today's technology. I find that public schools should be abolished and replaced with on-line education because the parents have more control over whats done and taught to their kids. Public schools are also some of THE most dangerous places for kids with all the shootings, bullying, shaming, drugs, kids killing other kids, indoctrination, forcing kids to do things they don't want to participate in. Our schools are a dismal failure compared to other countries and we pay more for that failure than any other country, that right there is a failure of epic proportion. We cant even get 50% of high schooler's to graduate! Jic, my mom was a public school teacher for over 50 years, she agrees that with the technology we have, there's just no reason for public schools to exist other than a social club and we have parks and play dates for that!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

SLFarmMI said:


> There are plenty of things happening for advanced and “middle of the road” kids. Those things just don’t get a lot of press.


I had an advanced and a "middle of the road" kid in public schools- two for each. Both have done very well for themselves. It's ridiculous to blame the school/teachers when the kid/parents don't put in the effort to learn. You can't send them off with a "they're your problem now" and expect them to excel.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> I had an advanced and a "middle of the road" kid in public schools- two for each. Both have done very well for themselves. It's ridiculous to blame the school/teachers when the kid/parents don't put in the effort to learn.


I don't blame the teachers in any form, I blame the bureaucracy. Top heavy administrations are guarding their ratings which equal dollars. The teachers are caught in the middle.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

no really said:


> I don't blame the teachers in any form, I blame the bureaucracy. Top heavy administrations are guarding their ratings which equal dollars. The teachers are caught in the middle.


So the kids/parents have no responsibility? I had two different types of students and two different school districts... Maybe.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> So the kids/parents have no responsibility? I had two different types of students and two different school districts... Maybe.


Where did I say that?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

no really said:


> Where did I say that?


No worries. I assumed this was a real discussion. Carry on...


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> No worries. I assumed this was a real discussion. Carry on...


LOL, with real words and everything..


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

no really said:


> LOL, with real words and everything..


Exactly. I knew you’d get it! Good job! 

And real kids too!


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

midlifecrisis317 said:


> I spend a lot of time with folks educated all over the world. I have a child in the Upstate NY state public schools and she's doing exceptionally well but damn, she's an outlier. I'm from Jersey and sent 2 decades in MA. I spent a lot of time in well funded public schools.
> 
> We are failing our kids because we do not spend enough on education. South east - this means YOU! Republicans - you are the reason why our schools are failing our children.
> 
> ...


Utter nonsense. The typical liberal response to every problem is to simply throw more money at it. It never works. Look how far education has fallen over the years despite more and more money being spent on it. My dad and his 8 brothers and sisters went to a one room school house and only 3 of them went farther than 8th grade. They brought their lunch in a bag and the schoolhouse was heated with a pot belly stove. The teacher was paid next to nothing. I graduated high school with honors in a class of 165 students and took 4 years of math including algebra1, algebra2, and geometry and did very well in math. How is it that my dad learned to do math in 8 grades that I couldn't do after 12 grades? Same with his brothers and sisters. They all did very well in life.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Not one cent should go to entities that discriminate against children.


private schools discriminate?


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> private schools discriminate?


The same way that Department of Defense public schools do. If you can't behave, you can't attend.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> private schools discriminate?


Yes, they do. They absolutely cherry pick their students. If they want public money then they should have to take anyone who shows up just like the public schools. They should also have to provide their own services and not use the public school’s resources.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Mish said:


> The same way that Department of Defense public schools do. If you can't behave, you can't attend.


Public schools used the same guideline when I was a kid. The state even set up special schools for problem students... Back then we had reform schools.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SLFarmMI said:


> Yes, they do. They absolutely cherry pick their students. If they want public money then they should have to take anyone who shows up just like the public schools. They should also have to provide their own services and not use the public school’s resources.


The private school our boy attended wasn't fussy, be a kid, need some education, you were in. They used their own resources. Our boy got a much better education for prolly less than it would cost at the public schools. That's been a few years back but $50 month covered it.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Why should public funds go to entities such as private schools that discriminate against students?


Public funds shouldn't go to discriminatory places. You are assuming every one is though. That's like people on this forum that have called me a racist just because I am Texan because they believe all Texans are. 

I took up for your post about some of them being discriminatory earlier in the thread because I agree with you. You agreed with someone else that smaller classes are better. Why not combine the two ideas and do something great for the kids in a non discriminatory fashion? Government bureaucrats want bigger classes with less teachers because that is more bottom line for the ledger. There is not much that you as a teacher can do about that.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

no really said:


> Where did I say that?


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Public schools used the same guideline when I was a kid. The state even set up special schools for problem students... Back then we had reform schools.


Now they just stick the kids with behavior issues or "emotional disturbance" in special education classes with children who are mentally or physically handicapped. Putting the predators in with easy prey that are unable to defend themselves. Very little teaching is done, all of the efforts have to go toward keeping those kids under control. It apparently is against the rules to have the emotionally disturbed students in one classroom and the handicapped students in another.

People wonder why I chose to home school at a certain point. Having your physically handicapped elementary school child narrowly miss taking a chair to the head because we want to include everyone, no matter what (among a million other complaints), is a good motivator.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Yes, they do. They absolutely cherry pick their students. If they want public money then they should have to take anyone who shows up just like the public schools. *They should also have to provide their own services and not use the public school’s resources*.


But by definition, if they use vouchers to pay for their kid to go to school there, wont that be using public resources?


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> Public funds shouldn't go to discriminatory places. You are assuming every one is though. That's like people on this forum that have called me a racist just because I am Texan because they believe all Texans are.
> 
> I took up for your post about some of them being discriminatory earlier in the thread because I agree with you. You agreed with someone else that smaller classes are better. Why not combine the two ideas and do something great for the kids in a non discriminatory fashion? Government bureaucrats want bigger classes with less teachers because that is more bottom line for the ledger. There is not much that you as a teacher can do about that.


You are assuming that because a school is private that it is automatically better. That is not the case. Unless private schools are mandated to accept everyone who shows up, they will continue to be discriminatory. 

BTW, class sizes are addresses during contract negotiations between the teachers and district here.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> But by definition, if they use vouchers to pay for their kid to go to school there, wont that be using public resources?


I am speaking of resources such as special education services. Under current law, if a private school student needs a special education service, the public school in whose attendance area the child lives must provide it. The public school either has to have staff travel to the private school to service the child or has to transport the child back and forth to the public school for services. And it isn’t just special education services. My cousins all went to Catholic school. Their school did not have a gym or pool. The public school had to bus them over to use the public school’s gym and pool and provide teachers for those classes.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SLFarmMI said:


> Why should *public funds* go to entities such as private schools that discriminate against students?


Because their parents tax money is funding the schools now.
They are part of the "public".

Private schools don't "discriminate" any more than any other institutions.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Mish said:


> Now they just stick the kids with behavior issues or "emotional disturbance" in special education classes with children who are mentally or physically handicapped. Putting the predators in with easy prey that are unable to defend themselves. Very little teaching is done, all of the efforts have to go toward keeping those kids under control. It apparently is against the rules to have the emotionally disturbed students in one classroom and the handicapped students in another.
> 
> People wonder why I chose to home school at a certain point. Having your physically handicapped elementary school child narrowly miss taking a chair to the head because we want to include everyone, no matter what (among a million other complaints), is a good motivator.


There is no Federal law that mandates emotionally impaired and physically impaired students be serviced within the same classroom. There is no law that mandates they be serviced within different classrooms either. The law merely requires least restrictive environment.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> There is no Federal law that mandates emotionally impaired and physically impaired students be serviced within the same classroom. There is no law that mandates they be serviced within different classrooms either. The law merely requires least restrictive environment.


Which is why I said rules, not law. I was told this in a school district in Florida, as well as one in southern California. My sister-in-law (the special education teacher I mentioned earlier) has told me that's the way they do it in her school district as well (central California). 

Least restrictive environment shouldn't be putting violent and out of control children into classrooms with disabled children just so the school can claim that they include everyone unlike private schools (or to get their per-student federal money, whatever the case). 

If we're going to nitpick semantics instead of admitting that there are huge problems with the public school system and that those in control care less about actual children than the survival of the system, we can't really have a coherent discussion. I may be wrong, but it feels like you're more interested in the survival of the system than actually looking at ways to either fix it or find something that could work better. More money isn't the answer.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Mish said:


> Now they just stick the kids with behavior issues or "emotional disturbance" in special education classes with children who are mentally or physically handicapped. Putting the predators in with easy prey that are unable to defend themselves. Very little teaching is done, all of the efforts have to go toward keeping those kids under control. It apparently is against the rules to have the emotionally disturbed students in one classroom and the handicapped students in another.
> 
> People wonder why I chose to home school at a certain point. Having your physically handicapped elementary school child narrowly miss taking a chair to the head because we want to include everyone, no matter what (among a million other complaints), is a good motivator.


I don't blame you one bit. Public schools are no place for kids these days. We have quite a few parents here that have opted for home schooling. Those kids get so much better education.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> You are assuming that because a school is private that it is automatically better. That is not the case. Unless private schools are mandated to accept everyone who shows up, they will continue to be discriminatory.
> 
> BTW, class sizes are addresses during contract negotiations between the teachers and district here.


No, I am not assuming. Remember when I agreed with you earlier? I am saying they could be because of smaller classes. Less bureaucracy. Less chiefs mens more money for the kids. 

By all means they would have to accept anyone who would show up. If they hang the shingle out as a school it is their liability. Are you saying it wouldn't work under any circumstance?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> I am speaking of resources such as special education services. Under current law, if a private school student needs a special education service, the public school in whose attendance area the child lives must provide it. The public school either has to have staff travel to the private school to service the child or has to transport the child back and forth to the public school for services. And it isn’t just special education services. My cousins all went to Catholic school. Their school did not have a gym or pool. The public school had to bus them over to use the public school’s gym and pool and provide teachers for those classes.


But as of now when these kids get bussed does the school district not get paid for these services by the taxpayer anyway? If they do, seems the parents of these kids are getting double taxed then as well as us that didn't use that loophole. Would that be welfare for rich kids? 

That would obviously have to be done away with and take this welfare away from these rich parents. The new school would have to shoulder that burden however they saw fit.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Mish said:


> Which is why I said rules, not law. I was told this in a school district in Florida, as well as one in southern California. My sister-in-law (the special education teacher I mentioned earlier) has told me that's the way they do it in her school district as well (central California).
> 
> Least restrictive environment shouldn't be putting violent and out of control children into classrooms with disabled children just so the school can claim that they include everyone unlike private schools (or to get their per-student federal money, whatever the case).
> 
> If we're going to nitpick semantics instead of admitting that there are huge problems with the public school system and that those in control care less about actual children than the survival of the system, we can't really have a coherent discussion. I may be wrong, but it feels like you're more interested in the survival of the system than actually looking at ways to either fix it or find something that could work better. More money isn’t the answer.


Not nitpicking— the terms “rules” and “laws“ when referencing special ed stuff are used interchangeably here. 

Nor did I ever say that there weren’t some problems with public education or some things that we could be doing better. However, things aren’t even close to being as dire as many folks posting here would like to make out. Nor do I believe it is true that people in education don’t care about kids. In fact, I know it isn’t. 

We agree that highly violent emotionally impaired students should not be in categorical classrooms with physically impaired students. We don’t do that in my district. Never have. 

Nor did I say that more money was the answer. It may be in some cases such as infrastructure because it will take money to repair school buildings. No child should have to go to school in a crumbling school. It may also be necessary if we want to get serious about reducing class size which, as research shows, has an impact on achievement especially in lower socioeconomic districts. But mainly we need to look at how we spend money.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I don't blame you one bit. Public schools are no place for kids these days. We have quite a few parents here that have opted for home schooling. Those kids get so much better education.


I agree but like has been said by others, there is a lot of blame to go around by many parents using school as nothing more than a babysitter. Parents have to be active in their childs education even if they have no education themselves. Heck, they might even learn something late in life. 

My stepson from a previous marriage was reading funny in the first grade. I was concerned and went to talk to his teacher about dyslexia. She told me it was too early to tell but by next year she would do an evaluation. It turned out she didn't forget about me and did. He was but only slightly. She did her job and all I did was sit with him while he read and had some questions about what he was doing. I also know a guy who will be 60 this year who was passed over and has the same ailment. He still cant read. When he talks about his parents they had to work all the time and expected him to do his own work while they did theirs. 

A child can not raise itself.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Not nitpicking— the terms “rules” and “laws“ when referencing special ed stuff are used interchangeably here.
> 
> Nor did I ever say that there weren’t some problems with public education or some things that we could be doing better. However, things aren’t even close to being as dire as many folks posting here would like to make out. Nor do I believe it is true that people in education don’t care about kids. In fact, I know it isn’t.
> 
> ...


Here is Texas when we fund schools we use bond elections. If the schools aren't up to snuff it is the taxpayer fault. It took 20 years to upgrade our city schools by way of election. 5 ballots later. 

I'm sure that was the teachers fault though.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mreynolds said:


> I agree but like has been said by others, there is a lot of blame to go around by many parents using school as nothing more than a babysitter. Parents have to be active in their childs education even if they have no education themselves. Heck, they might even learn something late in life.
> 
> My stepson from a previous marriage was reading funny in the first grade. I was concerned and went to talk to his teacher about dyslexia. She told me it was too early to tell but by next year she would do an evaluation. It turned out she didn't forget about me and did. He was but only slightly. She did her job and all I did was sit with him while he read and had some questions about what he was doing. I also know a guy who will be 60 this year who was passed over and has the same ailment. He still cant read. When he talks about his parents they had to work all the time and expected him to do his own work while they did theirs.
> 
> A child can not raise itself.


Parents do play an important roll. But at the same time we fork over big bucks to pay professionals to teach our kids, not just babysit them. I for one, would like to get my money's worth.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Parents do play an important roll. But at the same time we fork over big bucks to pay professionals to teach our kids, not just babysit them. I for one, *would like to get my money's worth*.



But who's fault is that really? If you don't get your moneys worth on a car or anything else you are like everyone else. All up in their business real quick. But when it comes to government funded stuff we tend to watch and wait. Maybe it will get better on it's own. 

I know you are not that way but I bet you know a lot that are. I sure do. The answer lies somewhere in a compromise. Neither side is completely right or wrong. The issue is neither side believes the other side is right at all.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

mreynolds said:


> But who's fault is that really? If you don't get your moneys worth on a car or anything else you are like everyone else. All up in their business real quick. But when it comes to government funded stuff we tend to watch and wait. Maybe it will get better on it's own.
> 
> I know you are not that way but I bet you know a lot that are. I sure do. The answer lies somewhere in a compromise. Neither side is completely right or wrong. The issue is neither side believes the other side is right at all.


The school system has a purpose and they serve it in some areas better than in other areas.
Yet, while I entrusted my kids to public education, I did not relinquish my parental rights or responsibilities.
I didn't wait and watch; I observed and acted accordingly.
This isn't about semantics; it is a failure for some to understand that parents are not beholden to support a system that may or may not adequately serve their specific needs.
I don't see a "watch and wait" attitude from parents as much as a "Just wait and it will get better" from the system.
Public education isn't the same as public water and sewer. Kids are there for a brief and important period in their lives. Promises that will affect the next generation do little for the children they are overseeing now. 
When it comes to each child, I am not interested in the "collective".
Disinterested and out of touch parents can choose to stay that way, unfortunately, but everyone banding together in a losing failing system means everyone drowns together.

Compromise assumes that both parties are obligated to the same goal.
My sense is that in the past generation or so that the education system is, as it's primary objective, about protecting themselves.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Private wins. Anyone surprised?
> 
> https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/dashboards/schools_dashboard.aspx


Until around the late 1960s, Mississippi had good white public schools and deplorable black public schools. Private schools and parochial schools were almost nonexistent.

The Federal government got involved and forced integration, primarily for racial reasons, but also with the idea that integration would improve the overall school situation by bringing the former black schools up to the same level as the white schools.

Unfortunately, what happened was the schools all went down to the low standard of the former black schools.

In part this was because the lazy, incompetent people who had been teaching and administering the deplorable black schools retained their positions in the newly integrated schools. The state was not allowed to fire them or to implement "pay for performance" because such things tended to adversely impact black employees.

White parents formed private schools and we had white flight to those schools. Unfortunately, those schools were (and still are) mostly under resourced. The parents are poor or middle income folks---and they still have to pay burdensome taxes to support the public schools.

When the dedicated, conscientious, competent teachers and administrators in the public school system saw what was happening, they retired, quit, or moved to the new private schools.

Overall, it has been a bad thing for everybody (except a few) and has basically destroyed the public school system in Mississippi. Students in Mississippi now consistently rank 50th in academic testing.

But, hey, it was good for our sports teams.


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## justascout1 (Jun 4, 2019)

That’s why I support vouchers for schools.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

SLFarmMI said:


> Not nitpicking— the terms “rules” and “laws“ when referencing special ed stuff are used interchangeably here.
> 
> Nor did I ever say that there weren’t some problems with public education or some things that we could be doing better. However, things aren’t even close to being as dire as many folks posting here would like to make out. Nor do I believe it is true that people in education don’t care about kids. In fact, I know it isn’t.
> 
> ...


As a parent with kids pretty recently out of school, I would argue they are dire. Maybe not in your school, but being a military family and moving about once every 3 years (sometimes more often), they are pretty dire in a lot of different schools in a lot of different parts of the country. 

"Highly violent" seems to be a subjective term that school systems like to play around with but never seem to nail down. Having your child at risk of being physically attacked in class and having no recourse other than to remove _your_ child because the school won't remove the attacker is pretty dire. 

I agree that we need to look at how to spend money. What I'm not agreeing with is your previous posts that seem to imply the way to fix public schools is to take away any other choice from parents other than doing what I did and teaching them yourself. I just don't see what that does to fix the problem other than forcing parents who can't home school to put their children in failing schools at best and dangerous situations at worst.

By the way, my home school children should be able to use the public school resources (gyms, speech therapy, whatever) - I do pay (rather large) property taxes that go toward those things. If they were in private school I'd have been paying twice, once for other children in public school and again for my own children in private school. Why is that taking away from anyone?


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> I agree but like has been said by others, there is a lot of blame to go around by many parents using school as nothing more than a babysitter. Parents have to be active in their childs education even if they have no education themselves. Heck, they might even learn something late in life.
> 
> My stepson from a previous marriage was reading funny in the first grade. I was concerned and went to talk to his teacher about dyslexia. She told me it was too early to tell but by next year she would do an evaluation. It turned out she didn't forget about me and did. He was but only slightly. She did her job and all I did was sit with him while he read and had some questions about what he was doing. I also know a guy who will be 60 this year who was passed over and has the same ailment. He still cant read. When he talks about his parents they had to work all the time and expected him to do his own work while they did theirs.
> 
> A child can not raise itself.


While I agree with you about parents needing to be responsible, that doesn't change the situation for parents who are involved and responsible. I can't change the way my neighbors care or don't care about what little Jimmy is doing in class. You kind of have to be dependent on the school to make smart decisions because, as a parent, you have very little power other than simply removing your child from little Jimmy's vicinity. A lot of parents can't do that even if they really want to and there's very little recourse, otherwise.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I don’t understand why people say they’re paying twice if they pay for a private school and pay taxes.
Even if you don’t have any kids at all you still pay the taxes that support other peoples children. 
What’s you are really doing is paying society back for the education you got and the benefits of others being educated.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> I don’t understand why people say they’re paying twice if they pay for a private school and pay taxes.
> Even if you don’t have any kids at all you still pay the taxes that support other peoples children.
> What’s you are really doing is paying society back for the education you got and the benefits of others being educated.


If I pay $100/year in taxes (to make it simple) that go to public education, and my children are using public education, I'm out $100 for my child's education.

If I pay $100/year in taxes toward public education but send my children to a private school that costs $100/year, I'm out $200 for my child's education.

That's how you're paying twice.

If you don't have kids, you're still only paying once.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Nope two separate things. 
When you drive you pay fuel taxes that support most highways but when you use the toll road you pay a toll that only supports the toll road. 
Can use the public roads if you want or you can pay a separate charge for a different product on the toll road


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Nope two separate things.
> When you drive you pay fuel taxes that support most highways but when you use the toll road you pay a toll that only supports the toll road.
> Can use the public roads if you want or you can pay a separate charge for a different product on the toll road


No, it's the same thing. You're literally paying twice - once for something that everyone (including you) can/could use, and another time for a different experience with the same service.

In my example it's education. In yours, it's roads. It's a good analogy but you _are_ paying a second time in both examples for something that you already paid for because you chose to use a different service instead of the one you've already shelled out for. You could choose not to use the toll road and only use the roads you've already paid for. Same thing with private vs public education.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Public education is a debt you owe society, private education is a luxury you buy for yourself.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Public education is a debt you owe society, private education is a luxury you buy for yourself.


Well, unless you consider a decent/safe education for your children a luxury, I'm not sure I'd classify it that way.

But we're both allowed to think whatever we want, which is the beauty of the thing.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

So the problem is to get public eduction and the conditions its done in to be up to grade. The teachers and their unions apparently are not going to work on the problem. If they put the energy into it like some have done to get pay raises things would change. Parents need to be held accountable. The parenting public has voting powers that they are not using. Seems nothing is likely to change.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Mish said:


> Well, unless you consider a decent/safe education for your children a luxury, I'm not sure I'd classify it that way.
> 
> But we're both allowed to think whatever we want, which is the beauty of the thing.


 Part of the reason my wife and child moved to my town was that I pointed out the advantages of our small rural school district over inner-city Indianapolis.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Public education is a debt you owe society


Some should be asking for refunds.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

It may have been mentioned somewhere in the last 100+ replies, but if your local schools aren't up to your standards there are a few ways that can be tried to get the ball rolling in the right direction.
Parental involvement has been cited many times, but "what" specifically?
I think they still have PTA (parent/teacher association) meetings, or they should.
I know every county has school board meetings, usually about once a month.
If the board is elected like most are, there's your chance to voice your opinions and push for change, about 12 times a year.
For those with time on their hands, why not volunteer?
If they say amateurs aren't welcome, tell 'em it looked like the pros needed some help.

Has everyone that complained here done at least one thing from the list above ?


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

My old town had an "alternative school" that was really nothing but a warehouse for kids so they could say they were in "school" until they were 16. There were no lesson plans and attendance was not taken, and the people I knew who worked there (and they all had their reasons for CHOOSING to do this) said that they believed in involuntary sterilization and that the school should have a urologist and a gynecologist on retainer to do this to all the students on admission, and their relatives as well. Girls who arrived pregnant and had their babies should have them taken away immediately after birth and placed for adoption. I was horrified, but not especially surprised. This "school" relocated from a downtown office building to an unused elementary school building in a quiet middle-class neighborhood, and the neighbors successfully petitioned to have it relocated because (among other things) they were totally fed up with all the drug dealers who openly hung around the school all day long.

I told that story to a woman I know who teaches at a regular high school here, and she said that our local alt-schools have stricter rules than the regular schools, in part so the kids won't want to go there unless it's the right place for them (and in some cases, it is).

BTW, the "school" was in a rural Midwestern city of 40,000, and two notable students were the son and daughter of a prominent child psychiatrist and his (now ex-) wife, who is a prison chaplain. Talk about the cobbler's kids having no shoes! The son was rejected by the military at a time when they were taking pretty much anybody, and one of his "hobbies" was dating unattractive girls and ditching them when they got pregnant. The parents didn't think the boy was doing anything wrong because abortion is legal. (Go figure) By all accounts, the girl was even worse, and the parents of the other alt-school kids didn't want their kids around them, which spoke volumes. I wouldn't have thought they cared, KWIM?

As for violent children being in a classroom with physically disabled kids, this may be a budgetary thing - that there simply isn't enough money to provide the needed services to these children. This situation has arisen in my extended family; I have a distant relative who is autistic and has other issues, probably caused by an unidentified genetic disorder, and the small town where they live pays tuition to a larger city about 20 miles away, where she goes to an appropriate school with other kids like her and by all accounts does as well as she can.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> It may have been mentioned somewhere in the last 100+ replies, but if your local schools aren't up to your standards there are a few ways that can be tried to get the ball rolling in the right direction.
> Parental involvement has been cited many times, but "what" specifically?
> I think they still have PTA (parent/teacher association) meetings, or they should.
> I know every county has school board meetings, usually about once a month.
> ...


I volunteered as both a teacher's aide (the position was volunteer and not paid like some are) one year and a classroom mom for several years each for two kids. I've attended more school board meetings than I can count, and more school advisory committees than that. I vote. The PTA has been entirely too political (not in a good way for the students, IMHO) in most of the school districts for me to even want to be part of that. I got to know my kids' teachers, I worked with them. I showed up to every single scheduled meeting, I requested meetings and showed up. I showed up when they weren't expecting me.

You're screaming into the void unless you are in an extremely small school district where people are actually held accountable by the voters. See how much ball-rolling you can get started in a school district with over 6,000 elementary school students in 9 different schools and around 4,000 students in the high school district in one school.

At some point we need to stop *****-footing around and accept the fact that most public schools are top-heavy, bloated governmental bureaucracies that mainly have the interests of the administration and staff, and the continued existence of the schools, regardless of how bad they are, ahead of the students. They don't have to answer to anyone because they will continue to exist as long as we defend them and blame parents. Should parents take some blame? Yes. But at this point, parents without the means to home school or send their kids to private schools, or even move into a better school district are being held hostage by a bloated, ineffective system. Volunteer all you want, your kid is still going to a crappy school while you hope things get better.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

There are SO many parallels between education and health care, one of them being that decision are far too often being made by administrators who do not provide direct services and know little or nothing about what REALLY goes on behind the counter, on the floor, in the office, or in the classroom.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

NRA_guy said:


> Until around the late 1960s, Mississippi had good white public schools and deplorable black public schools. Private schools and parochial schools were almost nonexistent.
> 
> The Federal government got involved and forced integration, primarily for racial reasons, but also with the idea that integration would improve the overall school situation by bringing the former black schools up to the same level as the white schools.
> 
> ...


What do you suggest as a solution for this problem?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> It may have been mentioned somewhere in the last 100+ replies, but if your local schools aren't up to your standards there are a few ways that can be tried to get the ball rolling in the right direction.
> Parental involvement has been cited many times, but "what" specifically?
> I think they still have PTA (parent/teacher association) meetings, or they should.
> I know every county has school board meetings, usually about once a month.
> ...


I went to pta meetings, and school board meetings. Didn't do a bit of good. I did learn some stuff though. We are an open carry state... Who knew that law doesn't apply at a school board meeting!??


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Mish said:


> While I agree with you about parents needing to be responsible, that doesn't change the situation for parents who are involved and responsible. I can't change the way my neighbors care or don't care about what little Jimmy is doing in class. You kind of have to be dependent on the school to make smart decisions because, as a parent, you have very little power other than simply removing your child from little Jimmy's vicinity. A lot of parents can't do that even if they really want to and there's very little recourse, otherwise.


Grab 'em by the ears if you have to. They hated to see me in the principals office after hours. 

I see by what you have posted that you are the same way. By the same token teachers have so many kids to deal with that if the wheel doesn't squeak loud enough they may get passed by.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> I don’t understand why people say they’re paying twice if they pay for a private school and pay taxes.
> Even if you don’t have any kids at all you still pay the taxes that support other peoples children.
> What’s you are really doing is paying society back for the education you got and the benefits of others being educated.


Here in Texas, only land owners pay for school. If you rent your landlord pays. 

Well, you pay as a renter too if they charge enough rent.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> Grab 'em by the ears if you have to. They hated to see me in the principals office after hours.
> 
> I see by what you have posted that you are the same way. By the same token teachers have so many kids to deal with that if the wheel doesn't squeak loud enough they may get passed by.


The problem is the teachers often can't do anything to fix the problem, and are dealing with disaster that is the system as best they can. It's above their pay grade, and they often have the same complaints parents do. Which is why I keep saying I absolutely do not blame teachers. They're the grunts in the trenches trying to survive the decisions of the bureaucrats/politicians sitting in their comfy leather armchairs at home.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mreynolds said:


> Here in Texas, only land owners pay for school. If you rent your landlord pays.
> 
> Well, you pay as a renter too if they charge enough rent.


As a landlord I do what I can to include all my expenses on a given property when figuring the rent. Yep, the renters pay my property tax bills second hand. I don't invest thousands upon thousands in a house to furnish someone with a free place to hang their hat and pay their taxes too. I'm a decent guy, but I have my limits!


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Mish said:


> The problem is the teachers often can't do anything to fix the problem, and are dealing with disaster that is the system as best they can. It's above their pay grade, and they often have the same complaints parents do. Which is why I keep saying I absolutely do not blame teachers. They're the grunts in the trenches trying to survive the decisions of the bureaucrats/politicians sitting in their comfy leather armchairs at home.


Absolutely agree. Sure, there are some terrible teachers. By and large that is not the case though. They are like Police, Fire Fighters, EMTs and Military. They do it because it's what they want to do. The pay isn't good but they can sleep at night. 

I wonder if school admins need to take sleeping pills though?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> As a landlord I do what I can to include all my expenses on a given property when figuring the rent. Yep, the renters pay my property tax bills second hand. I don't invest thousands upon thousands in a house to furnish someone with a free place to hang their hat and pay their taxes too. I'm a decent guy, but I have my limits!


Of course you do or you wouldn't be able to afford internet as you would be out of business by now. 

That's the thing about renters. They don't think they are paying for school but they are.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mreynolds said:


> Of course you do or you wouldn't be able to afford internet as you would be out of business by now.
> 
> That's the thing about renters. They don't think they are paying for school but they are.


Yup, there ain't no such thing as "free stuff". It's all got to be paid for.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

By and large, based on my experience, the biggest detractors of the current public school quagmire are the parents who are involved.


farmrbrown said:


> It may have been mentioned somewhere in the last 100+ replies, but if your local schools aren't up to your standards there are a few ways that can be tried to get the ball rolling in the right direction.
> Parental involvement has been cited many times, but "what" specifically?
> I think they still have PTA (parent/teacher association) meetings, or they should.
> I know every county has school board meetings, usually about once a month.
> ...


Playground supervisor, bus driver, cafeteria cook, teachers assistant/aide, board member, etc. We have been there.
By and large, based on my experience, the biggest detractors of the current public school quagmire are the parents who are involved and see things from the inside out.

One of the solutions is in the title of this thread.

In my time, I have encountered little resistance or debate with public school proponents when it comes to homeschooling.
The consensus seems to be "If you can do it and your kids benefit, good for you."
When mentioning alternative/private/charter education, the arms goes up, the brow wrinkles and the heads shake.
The answer to "why" is pretty easy to understand.


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

thesedays said:


> What do you suggest as a solution for this problem?


Sadly, not all problems (especially problems involving humans) have a neat solution that everybody likes, does not discriminate against some group, and does not pose a threat to some group's interests.

As is the case with many other problems that the US currently faces, I do not see a solution to the public school problem in the foreseeable future.

In my (engineering) mind, we should start by eliminating ALL non-academic courses and school functions like sports, band, PE, choir, drama, art, and driver education---and by eliminating virtually ALL non-academic positions on the school system payroll, and putting that money into teachers' salaries. Low teachers' salaries do not attract the best employees.

I would also eliminate the truancy laws. If a child does not want to be in school and his parents don't care enough to make him go, he becomes a major impediment to educating those students who want to get an education and to teachers who have to drag him through the system. Such people probably should drop out and start washing cars for a living. It might make them decide that an education is a good thing. (Yeah, some would start robbing liquor stores, dealing drugs, or go on welfare.)

In a democracy, numbers count---and politicians are keen on catering to the masses. (I am not even sure how a diploma became deemed a "Constitutional right".)

I don't see home schooling as a solution. A parent can only teach a child what he/she knows. So several generations of home schooling will result in a downward spiral of knowledge among home schooled students.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Spent some time with our youngest son a few weeks ago. He is away at his first year in College.
He is in a beautiful small town out of state, less than 6,000 in population, and it is the county seat.
The local school district there is suffering from the all too common budget shortfalls. Property tax hikes and other measures are in the works to ensure that the buses can continue to pick up rural kids, the janitor and teacher's assistants aren't laid off and the new air conditioning systems can be finished before next year.
The average salary for the teachers there is about 43k. The high school principal makes about 65k. The graduating classes average about 100 kids.
The administrator just left (retired) at 154k after about 6 years and will have a nice pension.
The new administrator has been hired at a salary of 179k.
The public apparently had a fit over the large increase in salary. The school board's response was that they have to offer a wage package that will attract the "best and brightest" in the field.
The new administrator's experience that seemed to qualify her as one of the best and brightest, was as a former accounting department head for the state lottery.
Ironic that there is such a pay disparity between the teachers, whom one would think is considered to be the back bone of the best and brightest, and the administration. Yet, that sort of outrage seems to be limited to private sector corporations.
So, as a seemingly subtle method of influencing the voters, the new superintendant reinforced the dire straights of the district by proclaiming that unless new referendums were passed, they may have to scale back bus routes, suspend new computer purchases, lab and audio/video equipment, reduce staffing for assistants and maintenance, etc.
Sort of like when a city is broke they always claim the first to be laid off are police and firefighters.
But yet, praise God, construction on the new football field will continue.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

NRA_guy said:


> In my (engineering) mind, we should start by eliminating ALL non-academic courses and school functions like sports, band, PE, choir, drama, art, and driver education---and by eliminating virtually ALL non-academic positions on the school system payroll, and putting that money into teachers' salaries. Low teachers' salaries do not attract the best employees.
> 
> I would also eliminate the truancy laws. If a child does not want to be in school and his parents don't care enough to make him go, he becomes a major impediment to educating those students who want to get an education and to teachers who have to drag him through the system. Such people probably should drop out and start washing cars for a living. It might make them decide that an education is a good thing. (Yeah, some would start robbing liquor stores, dealing drugs, or go on welfare.)
> 
> ...


 And that of course explains why an engineer should never be allowed to design anything. Your solution to schooling was to educate everybody exactly like yourself and to throw everyone else out to the wayside.
Your school system would be fine for engineers not so much for anybody else.
It would never create a plumber or a carpenter, it wouldn’t even create the social leaders that get your engineering products started and paid for. 
No artist to create box movies or television no truck drivers to bring you your food no farmers to raise it in the first place
No adventuresome souls to seek out natural resources like medals and oil.
Etc etc


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Primary school isn't supposed to create anyone. 
They are to educate. From education grows the understanding of direction within each individual. Then comes the rest.
Not enlightening, culturizing, indoctrinating, or reformating the mind.
Focusing on the peripheral without completing the core functions is a fail.
AmericanStand walking out his door wearing his underwear and t shirt on the outside would be an example of getting the important stuff wrong from the get go.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

In 1965, President Lyndon B. Johnson passed the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA) as part of his “war on poverty.” The act funds primary and secondary education, requires compulsory schooling for children until the age of 18, and is the supreme education law of the United States.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

All public schools that receive federal funding must administer standardized tests annually in mathematics and English language arts to all students from third to eighth grade, and once in high school.

-Schools that receive Title I funding (typically disadvantaged schools) must make *Adequate Yearly Progress* on test scores (aka the scores must improve by a certain percentage yearly). If schools do not make Adequate Yearly Progress, they are then labeled as _in need of improvement _and placed on probation. If scores do not improve, the school may ultimately have its entire staff replaced, be turned into a charter school, be run directly by the state, or closed.

-States must develop statewide Adequate Yearly Progress measures for all students.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Each state must develop a set of standards for teachers to be deemed “highly qualified,” the ideal standard for teaching. These standards vary per state.

-Each state must set “one high, challenging standard” for its students. The state decides what this standard is, but the standard must be set for all students in the state.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Do you not see how wrong it is to satisfy "The State" as compared to educating the student?

You think public schools can do both?

I don't.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

GTX63 said:


> Primary school isn't supposed to create anyone.
> They are to educate. From education grows the understanding of direction within each individual. Then comes the rest.
> Not enlightening, culturizing, indoctrinating, or reformating the mind.
> Focusing on the peripheral without completing the core functions is a fail.
> AmericanStand walking out his door wearing his underwear and t shirt on the outside would be an example of getting the important stuff wrong from the get go.


lol spoken like an engineer, schools don’t create anyone , scary that you would equate their job with their humanity.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Unfortunately, there isn’t a simple way to disengage the government from schools now. The school systems are too dependent on following the carrot. Independent thought has been discouraged.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Unfortunately, there isn’t a simple way to disengage the government from schools now. The school systems are too dependent on following the carrot. Independent thought has been discouraged.


The love of money...


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

For those special kids


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I did all three with my kids...public, private and home schooling. I’d have to say it all depends on the parents, kids, school, curriculum and teachers.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Lisa in WA said:


> depends on the parents, kids, school, curriculum and teachers.


That covers all the bases.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

HDRider said:


> That covers all the bases.


 Lol..I know.
I only have experience with one private school and it was a very, very good one. Until it wasn’t. The head master retired and they brought in a new one and the school went from providing an excellent academic curriculum, teachers and a wonderful school community to a place that prided itself on each grade being two years ahead of public schools. It became a meat grinder. Homework started in first grade...an hour of homework per grade up to six. I tore it up and refused to have my daughter do it. It was ridiculous. I pulled my kids out and put them in public school where they did great. My daughters friend committed suicide in 8th grade at the private school. It totally lost its way. But because it had a great reputation, Parents knuckled under.

I’ve seen some really poorly educated homeschooled kids too. Parents chose a crummy curriculum or both parents work so they plop junior down in front of a computer and expect him to do it unsupervised. We used the Calvert School curriculum which is noted for its academic excellence and it’s a one on one kind of thing.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

AmericanStand said:


> And that of course explains why an engineer should never be allowed to design anything. Your solution to schooling was to educate everybody exactly like yourself and to throw everyone else out to the wayside.
> Your school system would be fine for engineers not so much for anybody else.
> It would never create a plumber or a carpenter, it wouldn’t even create the social leaders that get your engineering products started and paid for.
> No artist to create box movies or television no truck drivers to bring you your food no farmers to raise it in the first place
> ...


If the students cannot behave and get a education there is no need for them to be there. Best for everyone. The problem students will have life sorted out just fine. They will find their level of employment or jail as needed. Sure some are going to fall through the cracks that might have been saved. The rest of the kids will benefit greatly without the distractions and wasted money.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> If the students cannot behave and get a education there is no need for them to be there. Best for everyone. The problem students will have life sorted out just fine. They will find their level of employment or jail as needed. Sure some are going to fall through the cracks that might have been saved. The rest of the kids will benefit greatly without the distractions and wasted money.


Yeah, let’s just give up on kids that may need a little bit of extra support. What a great plan!
(That’s sarcasm for those of you who are sarcasm impaired.)


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

NRA_guy said:


> I don't see home schooling as a solution. A parent can only teach a child what he/she knows. So several generations of home schooling will result in a downward spiral of knowledge among home schooled students.


Teachers in public schools do it on a daily basis. (Teach stuff they know nothing about) most homeschooled kids test out far ahead of their public schooled counterparts.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

NRA_guy said:


> I don't see home schooling as a solution. A parent can only teach a child what he/she knows. So several generations of home schooling will result in a downward spiral of knowledge among home schooled students.


I don't think you really have to worry about most home school kids being in a downward spiral. Yes, there are some bad home school parents, but I would argue that most of us care a lot about the success of our kids or we wouldn't home school. I personally have yet to find a dumb, unmotivated parent who home schools.

As far as only teaching what you know, it is completely possible for an adult to learn new things so that they can teach it to their children. (By the way, most of the parents in my home school group were college educated, so knew at least as much about basic "school" stuff as your average teacher, but most had more specialized areas of knowledge as well because their college majors were something other than education)

Anything I ran into that I didn't know, I learned about it so that I could teach it effectively. If there was a subject that I couldn't learn, I found someone who did understand it to either help me learn it or who could help me by teaching it to my kids (it was dad's job to teach the higher level math classes so my brain didn't melt, for example). Our home school group also created actual classes where parents who were experts on things that are difficult to just pick up (like music, or Trigonometry) would teach everyone's kids on the subject anywhere from once a week to a few classes a week.

The home school community is pretty creative and really wants to get the job done well. I don't think you have to worry about your particular concern unless it becomes the only other option for everyone who doesn't want to send their kids to public school. Honestly, though, most parents can completely intellectually handle what is being taught in public schools at least until you hit high school level (and unless your kid is an honors/AP type kid, most parents could probably handle what is taught in high school until at least Junior year).

It's not like it's wizard school or something. And most of us have done the work ourselves, already - I mean going to school, we know what happens there. It's not magic.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

NRA_guy said:


> I don't see home schooling as a solution. A parent can only teach a child what he/she knows. So several generations of home schooling will result in a downward spiral of knowledge among home schooled students.


That is a common misconception of home schooling. It isn't just one or both parents taking the place of school teachers. My wife was a teacher before our first child. She handles their education up until about 12, then we slowly start adding online classes, which if are higher math or science I assist with. Our oldest just went off to college this fall. She entered as a sophomore and will begin her January semester as a junior. 

I know not everyone is able to do it that way. But, it is more and more common and convenient. Some don't even need to as not all public schools are awful. Some are down right fine judging from other family members.

It is wonderful for us as there is only one middle school and one high school in this county. Both of which are over 30 minutes away by car and probably 50 minutes by bus. Those are hours our children would never get back. And, if they find a subject that enthralls them, it is available.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Redlands Okie said:


> If the students cannot behave and get a education there is no need for them to be there. Best for everyone. The problem students will have life sorted out just fine. They will find their level of employment or jail as needed. Sure some are going to fall through the cracks that might have been saved. The rest of the kids will benefit greatly without the distractions and wasted money.


 Lol sure. As long as we are creating engineers and English teachers that’s gonna work fine. 
Kids that are not interested in math and English ,they’re out the door . I didn’t think purpose school was to create engineers and school teachers Thought it was to educate productive citizens shop class home economics of art classes are with those kids will shine. Technical school is where they will be outstanding students. 
Even those teachers and engineering students that are exceptional will die from boredom in those classes for the average student.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I’ve dealt with lousy teachers before kind of think I’m going to teach class the way I want to teach class and forget the reason they have been hired was to impart an education to the child and they need to do whatever it takes


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Lisa in WA said:


> Lol..I know.
> I only have experience with one private school and it was a very, very good one. Until it wasn’t. The head master retired and they brought in a new one and the school went from providing an excellent academic curriculum, teachers and a wonderful school community to a place that prided itself on each grade being two years ahead of public schools. It became a meat grinder. Homework started in first grade...an hour of homework per grade up to six. I tore it up and refused to have my daughter do it. It was ridiculous. I pulled my kids out and put them in public school where they did great. My daughters friend committed suicide in 8th grade at the private school. It totally lost its way. But because it had a great reputation, Parents knuckled under.
> 
> I’ve seen some really poorly educated homeschooled kids too. Parents chose a crummy curriculum or both parents work so they plop junior down in front of a computer and expect him to do it unsupervised. We used the Calvert School curriculum which is noted for its academic excellence and it’s a one on one kind of thing.


In my old town, there was a woman who was constantly advertising for A-beka materials on Freecycle, in textese. No, I wouldn't want her HSing her kids either. (A-beka is a very fundamentalist Christian-oriented curriculum, and honestly is quite expensive.)

Anyone who think things were so wonderful "back then" should check out this wonderful documentary that was released a few years ago. Warning: Because one interviewee talks about sexual abuse, it is not appropriate for young children. It did air, uncensored, on my local PBS affiliate. If you can't stream it online, you could ask about it at your local library.

https://www.countryschoolmovie.com/


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

NRA_guy said:


> Sadly, not all problems (especially problems involving humans) have a neat solution that everybody likes, does not discriminate against some group, and does not pose a threat to some group's interests.
> 
> As is the case with many other problems that the US currently faces, I do not see a solution to the public school problem in the foreseeable future.
> 
> ...


You're right, and you're wrong. Eliminate the arts from school curricula? Are you kidding?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

thesedays said:


> You're right, and you're wrong. Eliminate the arts from school curricula? Are you kidding?


Not kidding. How many Elvis on velvet paintings do we need?


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

thesedays said:


> You're right, and you're wrong. Eliminate the arts from school curricula? Are you kidding?


Nope. In my opinion, schools need to place top priority on academics (such as science, math, reading, grammar, and accounting). I might throw in history; so as adults they might try to avoid the same mistakes that our forefathers made.

There definitely need to be several different paths (different levels of math, science, and other courses) offered: one for students who plan to get a BS in a technical field such as math, physics, computer science, or engineering; a different path for those who plan to get a BA in non-technical fields such as education, business, or accounting; another path for those who plan on a non-college career after high school.

I think students should get their education in art, music, singing, dance, drivers' ed, physical education, and other non-academic stuff at home, through personal trainers, or at private schools if they want it and their parents can afford it.

If public schools are supposed to be teaching fun stuff, where are the classes for those poor public school students who want to learn about SCUBA diving, snow skiing, mountain climbing, piloting airplanes, NASCAR driving, deer hunting, being a gunsmith, being a poker dealer in a casino, etc.?

Schools cannot be everything to every student.

Public schools should give them a basic education, and then let them pursue such interests on their own.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

NRA_guy said:


> I think students should get their education in art, music, singing, dance, drivers' ed, physical education, and other non-academic stuff at home, through personal trainers, or at private schools if they want it and their parents can afford it.
> 
> If public schools are supposed to be teaching fun stuff, where are the classes for those poor public school students who want to learn about SCUBA diving, snow skiing, mountain climbing, piloting airplanes, NASCAR driving, deer hunting, being a gunsmith, being a poker dealer in a casino, etc.?
> 
> ...


 There are public schools for all of those things


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## NRA_guy (Jun 9, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> There are public schools for all of those things


Not in Mississippi.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> There are public schools for all of those things


Not here.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I remember back in high school. My Nascar teacher was pretty laid back.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> I remember back in high school. My Nascar teacher was pretty laid back.


Wish I'd gone to school where you did, all we had here was beginners black jack dealing, LOL..


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

no really said:


> Wish I'd gone to school where you did, all we had here was beginners black jack dealing, LOL..


What??? They didn't offer the Texas hold 'em class there too?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> What??? They didn't offer the Texas hold 'em class there too?


I was deprived of an adequate education!!!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You might want to consider moving or campaigning to change that. 
Remember if your public schools are not up to your standards perhaps it’s your fault.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> You might want to consider moving or campaigning to change that.
> Remember if your public schools are not up to your standards perhaps it’s your fault.


We just don't have the student base to support that many schools.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I think we need a school that teaches how to have a sense of humor. Just saying..


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

no really said:


> I think we need a school that teaches how to have a sense of humor. Just saying..


We had 2 class clowns to do that. Lol


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

coolrunnin said:


> We just don't have the student base to support that many schools.


Good grief how many kids do you have?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

no really said:


> I think we need a school that teaches how to have a sense of humor. Just saying..


I don’t think that’s gonna work people will just laugh at the idea...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

no really said:


> I think we need a school that teaches how to have a sense of humor. Just saying..


That's funny.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

well I want a smiley face on my paper for reading all 9 pages of this back and forth!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

If I give you a gold star to put on your paper, will you promise not to eat the paste?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Miss Kay said:


> well I want a smiley face on my paper for reading all 9 pages of this back and forth!




5 Star.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

NRA_guy said:


> Nope. In my opinion, schools need to place top priority on academics (such as science, math, reading, grammar, and accounting). I might throw in history; so as adults they might try to avoid the same mistakes that our forefathers made.
> 
> There definitely need to be several different paths (different levels of math, science, and other courses) offered: one for students who plan to get a BS in a technical field such as math, physics, computer science, or engineering; a different path for those who plan to get a BA in non-technical fields such as education, business, or accounting; another path for those who plan on a non-college career after high school.
> 
> ...


What you are describing is called tracking. We have done it in the past. It was a bad idea then and it is a bad idea now. In practical application, your track was determined by what the powers that be thought you were capable of based on your particular demographic, not what you were actually capable of. If you were a person with a disability, a person of color and/or oftentimes female, you automatically went to the lowest track. 

I’m so glad you aren’t in charge of the curriculum. What a terrible place if all the opportunities for students with talents in art, music, etc. were left with no place to explore those talents and basically told that they as students have no value unless they fit into your narrow definition of who they should be.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The opposite of tracking is inclusion, which really doesn’t work, either. Special ed students often are bullied and sometimes disrupt regular classrooms. 

There is no magic solution.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

no really said:


> Wish I'd gone to school where you did, all we had here was beginners black jack dealing, LOL..


My daughter bought her first tractor with poker winnings, waiting for HS rodeo club meetings to start.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

wr said:


> My daughter bought her first tractor with poker winnings, waiting for HS rodeo club meetings to start.


The Rodeo Club is something I would have loved, college nearby (Sul Ross university) has a rodeo club.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mreynolds said:


> 5 *Star*.


I think you need a refresher course in Astronomy.
This is a star:


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

This is a shooting star:


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> The opposite of tracking is inclusion, which really doesn’t work, either. Special ed students often are bullied and sometimes disrupt regular classrooms.
> 
> There is no magic solution.


Tracking and inclusion are separate things. Tracking was inflicted on all students, not just special education students. Kids who were determined to not be “college material” were funneled into the lower level classes, most time with no hope of ever getting off that track.

Inclusion, when it is done right with the right students, can work very well. I have an autistic student right now who is fully mainstreamed into a general education classroom (he was in a categorical room last year) and he is doing very well. One reason is because we did it very carefully with careful selection of his teacher, appropriate supports in place and gradual introduction into general ed last year. This doesn’t work for all students. Some students are more appropriately placed in categorical classes with no mainstreaming, some with partial mainstreaming/inclusion, etc.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

no really said:


> The Rodeo Club is something I would have loved, college nearby (Sul Ross university) has a rodeo club.


Our high school as well as our nearest college have fairly good teams and at least some end up at the national finals. 

A friend of my youngest has likely got the most ag degrees possible because he enjoyed the college rodeo experience for as long as he possibly could.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

wr said:


> Our high school as well as our nearest college have fairly good teams and at least some end up at the national finals.
> 
> A friend of my youngest has likely got the most ag degrees possible because he enjoyed the college rodeo experience for as long as he possibly could.


Wow, national finals that's exciting. Wish our little school could have had a rodeo club but this year's graduating class last I heard was less than 10. I spent a lot of time going to rodeo's. Two of my brothers competed when they went to Sul Ross, it was a great little college. 

Yep, my brothers rode the college rodeo circuit till they couldn't LOL..


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

wr said:


> Our high school as well as our nearest college have fairly good teams and at least some end up at the national finals.
> 
> A friend of my youngest has likely got the most ag degrees possible because he enjoyed the college rodeo experience for as long as he possibly could.


It's amazing how many broken bones a feller can collect and keep getting back on!


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

I remember a guy who used to say, "I don't want to be well rounded. I want to be a dodecahedron."


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

thesedays said:


> I remember a guy who used to say, "I don't want to be well rounded. I want to be a dodecahedron."


I'm quite happy with being well rounded. That means I'm in great shape! Well being great, round being a shape.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

GTX63 said:


> If I give you a gold star to put on your paper, will you promise not to eat the paste?



now this is a gold star!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Here are a couple of real gold stars


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

The U.S. is a decentralized system of schools, which are governed in large part by 50 legislatures and more than 14,000 democratically controlled school districts.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

National Education Association, the largest teachers’ union is the largest union of any kind — in the United States.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Today’s school reformers are focused on efforts to soften school discipline, conscript schools into battles over sexual orientation and gender identity, and enlist schools as advocates for DACA and critics of ICE.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I think you need a refresher course in Astronomy.
> This is a star:


And here I thought it was Tom Cruise.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HDRider said:


> The U.S. is a decentralized system of schools, which are governed in large part by 50 legislatures and more than 14,000 democratically controlled school districts.


Not so much anymore. The Federal government is gathering control unto itself with the carrot and stick of "You'll get funding if you do this, no funding if you don't." Also, things like No Child Left Behind and Common Core argue against your point.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mish said:


> Not so much anymore. The Federal government is gathering control unto itself with the carrot and stick of "You'll get funding if you do this, no funding if you don't." Also, things like No Child Left Behind and Common Core argue against your point.


What I said is fact. It just does not get into the battle of Federal control and the 1,000s of school boards.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HDRider said:


> What I said is fact. It just does not get into the battle of Federal control and the 1,000s of school boards.


All I'm saying is that the states being a bunch of independent little school laboratories is mostly no longer true. 

Been going on for quite awhile. At least since my kids have been in school and they're now in their mid-late 20's. There's not much functional or curriculum difference between a district in Virginia, to North Carolina, to Florida, to Colorado, to California anymore. There might be some difference on where they are in a subject at any given time, but pretty much everyone is marching to Uncle Sam's orders. Which can be good, and bad.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Mish said:


> All I'm saying is that the states being a bunch of independent little school laboratories is mostly no longer true.
> 
> Been going on for quite awhile. At least since my kids have been in school and they're now in their mid-late 20's. There's not much functional or curriculum difference between a district in Virginia, to North Carolina, to Florida, to Colorado, to California anymore. There might be some difference on where they are in a subject at any given time, but pretty much everyone is marching to Uncle Sam's orders. Which can be good, and bad.


That was pretty much the case when I was a kid (I’m 55 now) and an executive brat moving all around the eastern half of the country. Though I was always in good suburban schools. No idea what rural or inner city curricula was like then.
In my kids rural high school in Idaho, the curriculum *sounded* the same but it wasn’t. Mostly poor/bad teachers, not enough textbooks (and old outdated textbooks), etc. If the federal government is mandating a common curriculum they need to make sure its paid for. At the time, and I doubt it’s changed much, Idaho was the last in the country fir school funding.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Lisa in WA said:


> That was pretty much the case when I was a kid (I’m 55 now) and an executive brat moving all around the eastern half of the country. Though I was always in good suburban schools. No idea what rural or inner city curricula was like then.
> In my kids rural high school in Idaho, the curriculum *sounded* the same but it wasn’t. Mostly poor/bad teachers, not enough textbooks (and old outdated textbooks), etc. If the federal government is mandating a common curriculum they need to make sure its paid for. At the time, and I doubt it’s changed much, Idaho was the last in the country fir school funding.


Each school district has a school board. They dance with the Feds because they want Federal money.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

HDRider said:


> Each school district has a school board. They dance with the Feds because they want Federal money.


That's why the school district I reside in pays big bucks for the superintendent, he's a hell of a grant writer.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

HDRider said:


> Each school district has a school board. They dance with the Feds because they want Federal money.


I'd simply change "want" to "are addicted to" Federal money!


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