# Church Mass Shooting in Texas Stopped by Good Guy with Gun



## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Church Mass Shooting in Texas Stopped by Good Guy with Gun

_Two people are dead and one is in critical condition after a gunman opened fire during service this morning at the West Freeway Church of Christ in White Settlement, Texas._

_The shooting was caught during a live internet stream of the church service (the streamed video on YouTube has since been taken down). A man dressed in a black trench coat with a hood jumped up and started shooting members of the church._

_Luckily, at least five armed members of the church instantly responded and jumped into action as soon as the shooting started. Within three seconds of the first shot, one member shot the shooter and killed him before he could harm more people._


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Seeing that no one brought the recent attacks on Jews in NYC, I thought we were ignoring violence now.

Why is this one HT worthy, when the attacks in NYC are not?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Thank you for the thread post. A very good ending to what could have been a horrible tragedy.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Seeing that no one brought the recent attacks on Jews in NYC, I thought we were ignoring violence now.
> 
> Why is this one HT worthy, when the attacks in NYC are not?


Because I am special. 

Actually, I have no idea what you're talking/writing about.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

HDRider, please don’t use those events to further your agenda.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> HDRider, please don’t use those events to further your agenda.


Whats his agenda?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> HDRider, please don’t use those events to further your agenda.


I have no agenda.

I was just surprised that we have seen many attacks with no mention here, and the shooting shows up almost immediately.

Is it because a gun is involved?

BTW - Don't scold me Teach


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

You seem to me to be so quick to find fault. It appears to be a conscious decision. 

Peace, please.

Wishing for gentleness. The news story caught my eye when I ate lunch at a small local restaurant. 

Now I hear a police car siren. 

I wish everyone peace.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

.


Alice In TX/MO said:


> You seem to me to be so quick to find fault. It appears to be a conscious decision.
> 
> Peace, please.


So, what would you call what you did Peacemaker?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I just edited my post as you replied. 

Peace. Please, it was a poorly phrased plea for peace.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

There are many gun related deaths not posted here but this one had that certain something.
Maybe the fact it was in a church and guns were involved and lives were saved.
Maybe that makes it more special than other gun related killings.
Just a guess on my part.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

There have been multiple murders of this type not posted in the last few months. This type of thread always devolves into a thread the moderators have to close or delete. So not providing a option to devolve is a good thing.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Slade, I think your post might have revealed a little of your lack of understanding with this thread.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

It was close (on a Texas distance scale) to WIHH’s Texas Family.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Cabin Fever said:


> Because I am special.
> 
> Actually, I have no idea what you're talking/writing about.


This is just a generalization, but if you post a thread about a great way for eliminating voles in your yard, I doubt anyone is going to question why you haven't started a thread about moles, or ground hogs. I also doubt anyone would question your motive for just a thread about voles. 
But then again, "squirrel"!


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

The church was less than a mile from the church where WIHH's oldest son's family attends.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Cabin Fever said:


> The church was less than a mile from the church where WIHH's oldest son's family attends.


I did not know that.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

The concealed carry person was very fast and accurate. It was over in a matter of seconds.
Good outcome.


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## TraderBob (Oct 21, 2010)

This doesn't qualify as a mass shooting per Pelosi's definition. You can't say mass shooting averted or stopped, because it wasn't a mass shooting. has to be at least 4 injured, not 3...


This irritates me no end. I wonder how many potential mass shootings were stopped before it actually reached that stage. 
As far as I am concerned it WAS an attempted mass shooting, and for me, it qualifies.

https://www.politifact.com/california/article/2017/oct/04/mass-shooting-what-does-it-mean/

"One strict definition used in the past by the federal government says at least four victims must be killed. Much broader criteria requires at least four victims be injured, though not necessarily killed."

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44126.pdf


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Sounds like a potential mass shooting was averted thanks to a good guy with a gun. More good guys with guns could completely eliminate them.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Slade, I think your post might have revealed a little of your lack of understanding with this thread.


G I have no idea what your parables mean.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

I read the security team of the church killed the gunman. That's a report on Drudge.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> I read the security team of the church killed the gunman.


We have that in our church. All that means is that some men, agree to come to church armed and are expected to act if the need arises.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

I think it's a good idea. Sad as hell but necessary.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

SRSLADE said:


> I think it's a good idea. Sad as hell but necessary.


I suspect it is very common where local law allows it.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Texas allows. Except for democrat places that don’t mind their patrons being targets. 

Many concealed carry folks carry regardless of the signage.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Why is this one HT worthy, when the attacks in NYC are not?


One didn't involve firearms, and can't be used to push agendas.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> This type of thread always *devolves* into a thread the moderators have to close or delete. So *not providing a option to devolve* is a good thing.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

As Cabin Fever clarified earlier in the thread, he was aware of it and shared it because of their family located in Texas.

As far as armed security in houses of worship, since that shooting at the small church in Texas two years ago stopped by the next door neighbor to the church first response engaging and eliminating the attacker, many congregations are now using plain clothes armed security.

Congregations in our area have been training security staff at law enforcement qualification ranges for the past year and out of uniform off duty officers who used to not go to services armed, now enter their places of worship with their not in uniform identification and limited concealed equipment to provide security since LEOs technically are never off duty , only off their normal shift duty.

An officer I know who never used to carry his off duty weapon into church is now the head of his church security team and carries his weapon, cuffs and a low profile main channel only police handheld radio in a belly band under his new concealed carry suit jacket so if his security team has to respond, he would be in direct contact with patrol officers and dispatch just by turning the radio on after the security team's first response.

Knowing that he never felt comfortable attending church armed, I asked him how he came to term with the need and he said with the situation that has developed, he and the other officers and members of the church armed security were set at ease by their Pastor who compared them to the team of shepherds tasked with protecting a flock against predators and their faith referred to Christ as The Shepherd and as they, he prayed they were never called to action.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> We have that in our church. All that means is that some men, agree to come to church armed and are expected to act if the need arises.


Exactly. My next door neighbor is head of security of our church, and it isn't a large church by any stretch. During the service there are volunteers seated in the sanctuary, one at the main door, one walking the common areas and one in the lot. They rotate every 15 minutes.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

A friend of mine has a BIL that is head of security at Joel Osteen's church in Houston. I understand it's quit the group of people for the undertaking. I met him once and asked him how many and he just said they would not disclose that info. You wont know who is and who isn't.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

@Cabin Fever Glad all the family is well.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Just found out my younger son is on the security team at his church.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

HDRider said:


> I have no agenda.
> 
> I was just surprised that we have seen many attacks with no mention here, and the shooting shows up almost immediately.
> 
> ...


Maybe you should have mentioned them?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

This is a video of the "live stream" when the shooting occurred.
It's amazing how quickly a mass shooting was *prevented* by simply having armed resistance at the scene. It was over in a matter of about 3 seconds.

*IF YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE SOMEONE SHOT DON'T WATCH THIS VIDEO.*

https://web.archive.org/web/20191229210308/https://streamable.com/m8sly


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Not working.

I found it elsewhere. He picked the wrong Texas church. About eight armed church members took the ******* out.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Not working.


It worked for me.
https://web.archive.org/web/20191229210308/https://streamable.com/m8sly

https://web.archive.org/web/20191229210308/https://streamable.com/m8sly


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I don't think anyone is "pushing an agenda" here. Just sharing news as it happens. Everyone is free to make whatever they wish out of the facts.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

This guy must not have known that the church live-streamed their services. Good luck getting away with it!

I also wonder if the security at this relatively small congregation was because this person (or possibly someone else) had made threats against them, or someone who went there.

Yvonne's Hubby, may I ask what a "bad guy with a gun" looks like? How can you tell, so you can get rid of them like you implied earlier in this thread?


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Sounds like a potential mass shooting was averted thanks to a good guy with a gun. More good guys with guns could completely eliminate them.


I watched the video and there were others with guns drawn moving toward the shooter also. But that is Texas. The good guy has had some practice. Looked to be about a 30 foot shoot and one shot did it.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

thesedays said:


> This guy must not have known that the church live-streamed their services. Good luck getting away with it!
> 
> I also wonder if the security at this relatively small congregation was because this person (or possibly someone else) had made threats against them, or someone who went there.
> 
> Yvonne's Hubby, may I ask what a "bad guy with a gun" looks like? How can you tell, so you can get rid of them like you implied earlier in this thread?


I think he meant if more good guys with guns took out more of these shooters quickly, fewer people would be tempted to try it.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

thesedays said:


> This guy must not have known that the church live-streamed their services. Good luck getting away with it!
> 
> I also wonder if the security at this relatively small congregation was because this person (or possibly someone else) had made threats against them, or someone who went there.
> 
> Yvonne's Hubby, may I ask what a "bad guy with a gun" looks like? How can you tell, so you can get rid of them like you implied earlier in this thread?


Watch the video. The bad guy looks like the idiot who pulled a gun and began shooting at innocent people. The good guys put a stop to it. See the difference? This time the good guys stopped the bad guy in very short order.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

thesedays said:


> may I ask what a "bad guy with a gun" looks like?


That would be the one who starts shooting at random unarmed people.
Note that everyone in the room knew which one was the bad guy.

*Immediate* armed response saved many lives.
That principle would work just as well in all locations.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

poppy said:


> I think he meant if more good guys with guns took out more of these shooters quickly, fewer people would be tempted to try it.


Prezactalutely!


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## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

It is illegal to carry in a church in my state, so good guys leave their weapons in their truck. So lambs to the slaughter in Michigan.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Flewism, I heard from family in Illinois that the state is trying to prohibit guns in church there as well.
I'm not sure how a private organization can be compelled legally to dictate the prohibition of self defense via firearm, but then smoking there is illegal too.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

poppy said:


> I watched the video and there were others with guns drawn moving toward the shooter also. But that is Texas.


Texas has the "reputation" but it is just as prevalent in other states, you may just not be aware of it.

The myopic ignorance of some folks this morning, as I read the media reports (not news); lamenting more gun violence and how to prevent this from happening again via laws and regulations is stunning.

This threat to humanity was aborted in 3-6 seconds.

Can anyone guess what the response time from local LEO would have been? Presume a squad car is a block away, so maybe a minute? Then maybe they stand outside to assess? Not a knock against police, just reinforcement in the good people sitting next to eachother in that church that took control of a situation that was already in their hands.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

mreynolds said:


> A friend of mine has a BIL that is head of security at Joel Osteen's church in Houston. I understand it's quit the group of people for the undertaking. I met him once and asked him how many and he just said they would not disclose that info. You wont know who is and who isn't.


I have been to churches where the pastor carried. Few knew it but he did.
I have been to churches, visiting, where the pastor forbid weapons inside the building.
There is a groupthink in this country among many that in cases like this, "Somebody official should be taking care of our protection and well being. They are stunned when a private citizen can take hold of matters like this and stop the threat.

Self sufficiency, self preservation and the ability to do what others assume should be done for us is part of what the attraction to the homesteading trend is. The truth however, is that this mindset struggles in the modern day to be the rule rather than the exception.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

thesedays said:


> This guy must not have known that the church live-streamed their services. Good luck getting away with it!
> 
> I also wonder if the security at this relatively small congregation was because this person (or possibly someone else) had made threats against them, or someone who went there.
> 
> Yvonne's Hubby, may I ask what a "bad guy with a gun" looks like? How can you tell, so you can get rid of them like you implied earlier in this thread?


Generally they are the ones doing harm to innocent people, like shooting up church attendees or voting for a democrat.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> *Self sufficiency, self preservation and the ability to do what others assume should be done for us* is part of what the attraction to the homesteading trend is. The truth however, is that this mindset struggles in the modern day to be the rule rather than the exception.


What a better place the world would be if we understood this, and made it a priority the world over.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The nearby thread referring the the driver who followed their gps down a dead end road and got stuck is a pairing example of a trend towards replacing one's own ability to think and sustain with someone elses, and the struggle to justify our right to choose our own path rather than paths set in place for the herd.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Just found out my younger son is on the security team at his church.


My Ft Worth step-son is on his church's security team as well.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

The Pastor of the church in Whitesettlement is a dear friend of the family of one of my HS Classmates...


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

HDRider said:


> Seeing that no one brought the recent attacks on Jews in NYC, I thought we were ignoring violence now.
> 
> Why is this one HT worthy, when the attacks in NYC are not?


If you felt it was so important, why did you not start a thread ? just curious..


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> If you felt it was so important, why did you not start a thread ? just curious..


I was honoring what I thought was a new, unspoken hiatus on violence in GC


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

There you go. Thinking again. 

(humor)


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

thesedays said:


> This guy must not have known that the church live-streamed their services. Good luck getting away with it!
> 
> I also wonder if the security at this relatively small congregation was because this person (or possibly someone else) had made threats against them, or someone who went there.
> 
> Yvonne's Hubby, may I ask what a "bad guy with a gun" looks like? How can you tell, so you can get rid of them like you implied earlier in this thread?


This is what a good guy with a gun looks like.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> There you go. Thinking again.
> 
> (humor)


I don't expect it to become all that popular .


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

The article that I read stated they guy worked as a security guard - not a security guard at that church.

What gets me is that with the potential lives saved, Biden has come out against carrying guns in church.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Wolf mom said:


> What gets me is that with the potential lives saved, Biden has come out against carrying guns in church.


He may have but it is only Monday.

Old Joe is the one who told his wife to deter bad guys inside their house by just stepping out on the balcony and discharging her shotgun into the air.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

What I don't understand is the concealed carry law. Everyone should be allowed to open carry.

Watching the video, I feel blessed to call Canada my home.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

I watched the video. The first person shot didn't have a chance, the second person got shot because he was talking to the perp when he should have been shooting. When confronted with an active shooter, shoot, shoot, and shoot again. Don't talk, it slows down your reaction time. Overall, it was a good shoot. The guy who took him out, took the extra half second to put his first round center mass and put the shooter down.

PS: The Paster is a coward.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Maude said:


> What I don't understand is the concealed carry law. Everyone should be allowed to open carry.


In a situation where the active shooter is determined to start shooting, open carry means that you will be the first one shot. Concealed, might give you the one or two second advantage that means the difference between winning and loosing a gunfight.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

I didn't want to see the video. But it is nice to her that people able to stick up for themselves and others against random shooting attacks.
Maybe if this started happening more, the "bad guys with guns" would think twice.
Maybe not though if they are already suicidal.
It's just a sad state of affairs all the way around.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

In the age of glorifying shooters, publishing their names, their photos, their facebook rants and manifestoes, this fellow won't have much of a legacy.
But that is not intended to lessen the impact he made with the deaths of two people who did nothing more than wake up and go to worship.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Maude said:


> What I don't understand is the concealed carry law. Everyone should be allowed to open carry.
> 
> Watching the video, I feel blessed to call Canada my home.


I wasn't aware Canada allowed open carry.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> He may have but it is only Monday.


He was against it when it was first proposed:

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/brons...JOqfAkDCE_Wunl9Mr_KR0bLpb6AWUAx3BttiCdFDLVpDY



> "With all due respect to the governor of Texas," Biden began, "it is irrational what they're doing. On the very day you see a mass shooting ... and we're talking about loosening access to have guns, to be able to take them into places of worship ... I mean it's just absolutely irrational. It's totally irrational."


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Maude said: ↑
> What I don't understand is the concealed carry law. Everyone should be allowed to open carry.


Many states allow both means of carrying.
Concealed is the better option.

A concealed weapon is much more secure.
It gives you the element of surprise, and doesn't make others uncomfortable.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

We are now wide open. No permit required for concealed, and open carry is legal.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

GTX63 said:


> Thank you for the thread post. A very good ending to what could have been a horrible tragedy.


Except for the ones that got killed. People with guns kill people. End of story.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

101pigs said:


> Except for the ones that got killed. People with guns kill people. End of story.


Well said!


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

GTX63 said:


> I wasn't aware Canada allowed open carry.


Canada doesn't allow for open carry.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

muleskinner2 said:


> In a situation where the active shooter is determined to start shooting, open carry means that you will be the first one shot. Concealed, might give you the one or two second advantage that means the difference between winning and loosing a gunfight.


Makes sense.


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Many states allow both means of carrying.
> Concealed is the better option.
> 
> A concealed weapon is much more secure.
> It gives you the element of surprise, and doesn't make others uncomfortable.


Understandable.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

101pigs said:


> Except for the ones that got killed. People with guns kill people. End of story.


People without guns kill people too.

If the first person shot had been faster on the draw, there's a good chance he would still be alive today.

People with guns stop killers and other criminals.
Gun bans get more people killed.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

101pigs said:


> Except for the ones that got killed. People with guns kill people. End of story.


The killer's story was stopped but it isn't the end of the story for the others.

I already posted my thoughts regarding those two victims who did nothing more than get up and go to worship that morning.
The OP could just post random threads focusing on the deaths; they decided on a story that confirms what many of us have known, our parents and their parents have known.

To believe people with guns kill people would be a truth and I am in agreement; to believe people without guns, if that is your preposition, kill less, or that the church goers may not have been attacked via other means, is myopic.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> The killer's story was stopped but it isn't the end of the story for the others.
> 
> I already posted my thoughts regarding those two victims who did nothing more than get up and go to worship that morning.
> The OP could just post random threads focusing on the deaths; they decided on a story that confirms what many of us have known, our parents and their parents have known.
> ...


On Saturday, five people were stabbed in the home of Rabbi Chaim Rottenberg in Monsey, New York.

Several people were gathered there during a Hanukkah celebration when an attacker entered the home carrying a machete described by a witness as "the size of a broomstick."


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

muleskinner2 said:


> The guy who took him out, took the extra half second to *put his first round center mass* and put the shooter down.


He shot him in the head.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

GTX63 said:


> The killer's story was stopped but it isn't the end of the story for the others.
> 
> I already posted my thoughts regarding those two victims who did nothing more than get up and go to worship that morning.
> The OP could just post random threads focusing on the deaths; they decided on a story that confirms what many of us have known, our parents and their parents have known.
> ...


More people were killed by guns in 2018 then any year in the last 20 years. Been an increase in this number in 2019. Compared to Canada and other countries in Europe it is really high. U.S. is going backwards in gun deaths. Its got to stop sometime.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Several people were gathered there during a Hanukkah celebration when an attacker entered the home carrying a machete described by a witness as "the size of a broomstick."


They threw chairs at him.
He fled the scene and was caught later.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

101pigs said:


> More people were killed by guns in 2018 then any year in the last 20 years. Been an increase in this number in 2019. Compared to Canada and other countries in Europe it is really high. U.S. is going backwards in gun deaths. Its got to stop sometime.


Do you have a link to your statistics?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I have not found 2018 yet


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Still have not found 2018


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

The presence of firearms in church, or in school, or anywhere in public is still extremely stupid in my opinion and can never be seen through my eyes as productive, useful or harmless.

Yea yea yea, the shooter was halted by other shooters. Why are these stupid hateful guns permitted in the first place? Had the initial shooter not possessed any firearms at all, there would have to be no further shootings.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

101pigs said:


> More people were *killed by guns* in 2018 then any year in the last 20 years.


Rattling off numbers without all the details is pointless.
Guns aren't the problem.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

georger said:


> Why are these *stupid hateful guns* permitted in the first place? Had the initial shooter not possessed any firearms at all, there would have to be no further shootings.


They are inanimate objects made of plastic and metal.
They cannot be "stupid".
They cannot be "hateful".

You seem to be advocating the "law of the jungle", since without firearms everyone is at the mercy of the biggest and strongest bad guys.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

georger said:


> The presence of firearms in church, or in school, or anywhere in public is still extremely stupid in my opinion and can never be seen through my eyes as productive, useful or harmless.
> 
> Yea yea yea, the shooter was halted by other shooters. Why are these stupid hateful guns permitted in the first place? Had the initial shooter not possessed any firearms at all, there would have to be no further shootings.


We all understand how simple it is to make all guns disappear, and then we can eliminate hate and our problems are solved.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yes, this thread has devolved to insults.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

*Observations


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## Witch's Broom (Dec 23, 2017)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> Reading the comments from some of the people here makes me wonder "Who ties their shoes for them ".....There are Morons among us....


Nothing could be farther from the truth. I don't believe there is a single moron among us here. It's a free forum, open to everyone's opinions, comments and insight, so just because someone says something that doesn't agree with someone else here, doesn't make them a moron.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Maude said:


> Nothing could be farther from the truth. I don't believe there is a single moron among us here. It's a free forum, open to everyone's opinions, comments and insight, so just because someone says something that doesn't agree with someone else here, doesn't make them a moron.


And it's my opinion that to attribute being "Stupid" or "Hateful" to an inanimate object is "moronic".


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

georger said:


> Yea yea yea, the shooter was halted by other shooters. Why are these stupid hateful guns permitted in the first place? Had the initial shooter not possessed any firearms at all, there would have to be no further shootings.


Murder is not permitted and that law didn't stop the murderer from trying to pull off a mass shooting and because of good people (people are good/evil/hateful, smart/stupid, not guns)he was unable to succeed in his likely plan. If he had not possessed any firearm at all, perhaps he may have used a bomb? A truck? a sword? poison gas? a bioweapon? etc..


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

georger said:


> Why are these stupid hateful guns permitted in the first place?


If you were made czar for a day, how would you collect all the guns currently owned by individuals?


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Farmerga said:


> Murder is not permitted and that law didn't stop the murderer from trying to pull off a mass shooting and because of good people (people are good/evil/hateful, smart/stupid, not guns)he was unable to succeed in his likely plan. If he had not possessed any firearm at all, perhaps he may have used a bomb? A truck? a sword? poison gas? a bioweapon? etc..


Exactly !


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

muleskinner2 said:


> I watched the video. The first person shot didn't have a chance, the second person got shot because he was talking to the perp when he should have been shooting. When confronted with an active shooter, shoot, shoot, and shoot again. Don't talk, it slows down your reaction time. Overall, it was a good shoot. The guy who took him out, took the extra half second to put his first round center mass and put the shooter down.
> 
> PS: The Paster is a coward.


I haven't seen all the stuff yet, so I don't know why you'd say the pastor is a coward?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

georger said:


> The presence of firearms in church, or in school, or anywhere in public is still extremely stupid in my opinion and can never be seen through my eyes as productive, useful or harmless.
> 
> Yea yea yea, the shooter was halted by other shooters. Why are these stupid hateful guns permitted in the first place? Had the initial shooter not possessed any firearms at all, there would have to be no further shootings.


If the "initial shooter" not had a gun, nobody would have known about the other guns.
If the "Initial shooter" had a gun and nobody else did, there would be far more dead people.
You can't stop crazy people/bad guys from getting guns, so why disarm the potential victims?
Give people a chance to protect themselves.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Maude said:


> Nothing could be farther from the truth. I don't believe there is a single moron among us here. It's a free forum, open to everyone's opinions, comments and insight, so just because someone says something that doesn't agree with someone else here, doesn't make them a moron.


If everyone agreed, it'd be some pretty dull conversations.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

101pigs said:


> More people were killed by guns in 2018 then any year in the last 20 years. Been an increase in this number in 2019. Compared to Canada and other countries in Europe it is really high. U.S. is going backwards in gun deaths. Its got to stop sometime.


101, maybe you know this, maybe you don't, but I'll stick to rifles since that is what this BG used.

in 2017, the number of victims killed by knives, clubs and assorted cutting instruments was 5 (five) times that of the number of victims shot by a rifle.
In 2018, more people were killed by clubs and hammers than by rifles. More than 100 over the latter.
The guns used were just semi autos; they were shotguns and bolt actions as well
In 2018, there were more victims who died as a result of being beaten with fists, feet and "personal weapons" than with the type of long gun used in this church.

I'll post the link using FBI data below. I supposed I am curious to if you are concerned about the brutality of death by means other than a shotgun/rifle, and if you have a method to stop such brutality as stabbing.
https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com...mers-clubs-and-even-feet-than-rifles-in-2018/


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Cornhusker said:


> If the "initial shooter" not had a gun, nobody would have known about the other guns.
> If the "Initial shooter" had a gun and nobody else did, there would be far more dead people.
> You can't stop crazy people/bad guys from getting guns, so why disarm the potential victims?
> Give people a chance to protect themselves.


I agree 100%


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

georger said:


> The presence of firearms in church, or in school, or anywhere in public is still extremely stupid in my opinion and can never be seen through my eyes as productive, useful or harmless.
> 
> Yea yea yea, the shooter was halted by other shooters. Why are these stupid hateful guns permitted in the first place? Had the initial shooter not possessed any firearms at all, there would have to be no further shootings.


To ask why they are allowed is bypassing the point of the thread. Guns can be had anywhere in the world, so it isn't productive to simply wallow in what ifs.

You do not see the presence of firearms in church as usefull but would you give the members who were in this particular church the benefit of their choice to have them there?


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

The hero in this case used the gun below (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...c25bf559c20e&usg=AOvVaw3ppgWCH7bm0YUhH5lxcOsC ) at a distance of about 50 ft. He certainly was well trained. He did what he had to do and for that I admire his courage.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

It is a terrible shame that churches need security personnel.

My prayers are with the man who eliminated the murderer in that church. Despite the fact that he saved lives, he will be thinking of the one he took for a very long time.


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

Perhaps more law abiding citizens need to be armed - I won't argue against that. The times are almost requiring it, as this story shows. But that is just a band-aid on the real problem. We are taught from birth now, more and more, that this life of ours is it - nothing follows. If things go sour we can just check out, or check out and vent our frustrations by harming others as we check out. Then everlasting nothing-ness. That is the mindset behind these meaningless killings. 

What about what follows this life? The bible, God's Word has plenty to say about that. And when we turn to that Word, we find answers for a lot of our problems, and we find hope for what lies ahead for those that trust in the one remedy for our condition, Jesus. Eternity is forever, and the length of our life, be it 10 years or 100 years, is ZERO by comparison - perhaps we need to turn to that hope and we need to bring up our children to turn to that hope.


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## The Paw (May 19, 2006)

MichaelZ said:


> Perhaps more law abiding citizens need to be armed - I won't argue against that. The times are almost requiring it, as this story shows. But that is just a band-aid on the real problem. We are taught from birth now, more and more, that this life of ours is it - nothing follows. If things go sour we can just check out, or check out and vent our frustrations by harming others as we check out. Then everlasting nothing-ness. That is the mindset behind these meaningless killings.
> 
> What about what follows this life? The bible, God's Word has plenty to say about that. And when we turn to that Word, we find answers for a lot of our problems, and we find hope for what lies ahead for those that trust in the one remedy for our condition, Jesus. Eternity is forever, and the length of our life, be it 10 years or 100 years, is ZERO by comparison - perhaps we need to turn to that hope and we need to bring up our children to turn to that hope.


I don't necessarily think that turning to a Christian God is the answer for everyone, but aside from that, I think you raise an interesting point. There is a certain angry nihilism that seems to be animating these mass shooters, the rabid alt-right, the anti-Semites and white nationalists. Wherever that anger stems from, it seems pretty clear that standard religious options aren't working for these guys. I think at one time, church and family served as a foundation for many, that kept them from coming unmoored, but it seems equally clear that organized religion has been receding in importance as an institution. I'm not sure the answer is necessarily to turn the clock back though. Church is fine for those who want it, but maybe some other form of social attachment (or even spiritual connection in a different form) is required to respond to this unmet need.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> I agree 100%


Canada, and other countries that do not allow open firearms has very small amount of deaths by firearm compared to the top 10 countries that allow them. The U.S. is in those top ten counties today.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

101pigs said:


> Canada, and other countries that do not allow open firearms has very small amount of deaths by firearm compared to the top 10 countries that allow them. The U.S. is in those top ten counties today.


What is the number or Per cent of homicides by open carry persons?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Canada’s statistics are irrelevant in the U.S.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Yes, this thread has devolved to insults.


You say that a lot.
The fact you don't agree doesn't mean it's an "insult".



Maude said:


> It's a free forum, open to everyone's opinions, comments and insight, so just because someone says something that doesn't agree with someone else here, doesn't make them a moron.


It's not "agreement" that makes some statements "moronic".
It's the content of the statements themselves.

No one blames the cars for drunk drivers.
No one anthropomorphizes them at all, because it would be silly to assign blame to a machine.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MichaelZ said:


> The bible, God's Word has plenty to say about that.


I believe it says something about "the Lord helps those who help themselves."


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> 101pigs said: ↑
> Canada, and other countries that do not allow open firearms has very small amount of deaths by firearm compared to the top 10 countries that allow them. The U.S. is in those top ten counties today.


Most of the homicides in the US occur in cities and counties with the most stringent gun control laws.

If you compare parts of the US that have the same population densities as Canada, you will see our rates are as good or even better. 

Why not simply post your sources rather than just parroting unverified information?


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Interesting thread. Lets see if we can keep it open.....


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The Paw said:


> I don't necessarily think that turning to a Christian God is the answer for everyone, but aside from that, I think you raise an interesting point. There is a certain angry nihilism that seems to be animating these mass shooters, the rabid alt-right, the anti-Semites and white nationalists.


You do realize that stuffing"these mass shooters" into a bag and pasting "alt right/anti semites/white nationalists" on it would be a bag mislabled, right?
Do you not see where an enormous amount of violence is coming from in this current age?
Look at their profiles, read more than one or two news sources and you might be surprised at whom these folks tend to draw near to.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

101pigs said:


> Canada, and other countries that do not allow open firearms has very small amount of deaths by firearm compared to the top 10 countries that allow them. The U.S. is in those top ten counties today.


I'm sure your probably meant "countries"...but even then you'd still be wrong..


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

GTX63 said:


> You do realize that stuffing"these mass shooters" into a bag and pasting "alt right/anti semites/white nationalists" on it would be a bag mislabled, right?
> Do you not see where an enormous amount of violence is coming from in this current age?
> Look at their profiles, read more than one or two news sources and you might be surprised at whom these folks tend to draw near to.


Exactly, you got to it before I could but this is something I was about to address. Far more of these shooters have been rabid leftists etc..


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

101pigs said:


> Except for the ones that got killed. People with guns kill people. End of story.


Some people with guns kill some people. The vast majority of gun owners do not. Some of those people killed need it.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

MichaelZ said:


> Perhaps more law abiding citizens need to be armed - I won't argue against that. The times are almost requiring it, as this story shows. But that is just a band-aid on the real problem.


The problem has been with us since about a week or so after we were created.
A muddy pond stays muddy and as long as you are swimming in it wear a life jacket.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)




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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> He shot him in the head.


Risky, but works for me.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Cornhusker said:


> I haven't seen all the stuff yet, so I don't know why you'd say the pastor is a coward?


After the shooting is over, and everyone else is closing in on the killer, the Paster is crawling around on his hands and knees.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

mreynolds said:


> A friend of mine has a BIL that is head of security at Joel Osteen's church in Houston. I understand it's quit the group of people for the undertaking. I met him once and asked him how many and he just said they would not disclose that info. You wont know who is and who isn't.


It would be unwise to advertise that your church had a security team, and even more unwise to admit to it after a shooting incident. Anyone who has to shoot, should after the fact just say that they were a private citizen who happened to be carrying in church. I know this sounds crazy, but litigation is a common thing. And there is a lawyer under every bush these days.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

101pigs said:


> Except for the ones that got killed. People with guns kill people. End of story.


Yes they do, and yes I have. The fact is that there are people who need killing.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

georger said:


> can never be seen through my eyes as productive, useful or harmless.


Some of the people who where in that church might have a different opinion.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Canada’s statistics are irrelevant in the U.S.


Other countries that have no carry guns in public etc. is one good reason why killing by guns is way lower then the U.S. Every person killed in the U.S. Or Canada by gun is relevant to me. It does not matter who/s statistics it is. More people are killed by guns in the U.S. then in Canada and other countries that have no carry gun laws.

Deaths by guns.
U.S.A. 4.5/100K.
Canada. o.47 per 100K.
Denmark. 0.15 per 100k. Denmark is the lowest
.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

muleskinner2 said:


> Yes they do, and yes I have. The fact is that there are people who need killing.


That is why the U.S. has courts. Back in the old days of the West was a different story.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

muleskinner2 said:


> It would be unwise to advertise that your church had a security team, and even more unwise to admit to it after a shooting incident. Anyone who has to shoot, should after the fact just say that they were a private citizen who happened to be carrying in church. I know this sounds crazy, but litigation is a common thing. And there is a lawyer under every bush these days.


America's favorite indoor sport! File a suit against everyone, someone might pay.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The U.S. has courts because our Constitution provides for them. 

Someone in this discussion needs a few more history, logic, and civics lessons.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Relevant or important to you is not the same as relevant to the situation and U.S. gun law conversation.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

*“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.”*

― Thomas Paine, The American Crisis


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

just a few weeks ago, there were hundreds of thousands of people all over wisconsin carrying loaded rifles. for nine days straight..
there was not even one person killed on purpose by any of them..


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> It would be unwise to advertise that your church had a security team, and even more unwise to admit to it after a shooting incident. Anyone who has to shoot, should after the fact just say that they were a private citizen who happened to be carrying in church. I know this sounds crazy, but litigation is a common thing. And there is a lawyer under every bush these days.


I disagree. Just knowing that there is one in there is a deterrent. Not knowing who it is may be very wise though.

How many police stations get robbed? Not many because they know there are guns in there.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Cabin Fever said:


> This is what a good guy with a gun looks like.


And he does not consider himself a hero, which makes his actions all the more heroic. He also took that job hoping his services would never be needed, which is as it should be.

As for the purpose of gun-free zones, it only means that if someone has a weapon, the penalties are higher.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> In the age of glorifying shooters, publishing their names, their photos, their facebook rants and manifestoes, this fellow won't have much of a legacy.
> But that is not intended to lessen the impact he made with the deaths of two people who did nothing more than wake up and go to worship.


Whenever the BBC talks about the New Zealand mosque shooter, that's how they refer to him, and whenever they show him, you just see a big fuzzy oval with a vaguely person-shaped orange thing in the middle.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Farmerga said:


> Murder is not permitted and that law didn't stop the murderer from trying to pull off a mass shooting and because of good people (people are good/evil/hateful, smart/stupid, not guns)he was unable to succeed in his likely plan. If he had not possessed any firearm at all, perhaps he may have used a bomb? A truck? a sword? poison gas? a bioweapon? etc..


So, let's just eliminate all laws, mmmkay, because criminals don't follow them anyway.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

The Paw said:


> I don't necessarily think that turning to a Christian God is the answer for everyone, but aside from that, I think you raise an interesting point. There is a certain angry nihilism that seems to be animating these mass shooters, the rabid alt-right, the anti-Semites and white nationalists. Wherever that anger stems from, it seems pretty clear that standard religious options aren't working for these guys. I think at one time, church and family served as a foundation for many, that kept them from coming unmoored, but it seems equally clear that organized religion has been receding in importance as an institution. I'm not sure the answer is necessarily to turn the clock back though. Church is fine for those who want it, but maybe some other form of social attachment (or even spiritual connection in a different form) is required to respond to this unmet need.


I also believe that the deinstitutionalization craze of the 1960s and 1970s has contributed to a lot of this.


----------



## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

muleskinner2 said:


> After the shooting is over, and everyone else is closing in on the killer, the Paster is crawling around on his hands and knees.


And this makes him a coward why? I sure hope you never find out what you would do in this situation.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

georger said:


> The presence of firearms in church, or in school, or anywhere in public is still extremely stupid in my opinion and can never be seen through my eyes as productive, useful or harmless.
> 
> Yea yea yea, the shooter was halted by other shooters. Why are these stupid hateful guns permitted in the first place? Had the initial shooter not possessed any firearms at all, there would have to be no further shootings.


I disagree. Canada's firearms laws doesn't seem to have done much to keep guns out of the hands of gang members. 

I happened to be in front of my office when two gang members were shot by a rival gang member and I'm still solidly convinced that our gun control laws wasn't what prevented me from also being killed that morning. 

As a homesteader, I do feel that I need to be able to kill predators threatening my livestock, fill my freezer and I'd far rather not watch livestock suffer until a vet has time in the next day or so to make an on site visit and put something down.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

muleskinner2 said:


> Risky, but works for me.


He said that was the first and only clear shot he had.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

101pigs said:


> Every person killed in the U.S. Or Canada by gun is relevant to me. It does not matter who/s statistics it is. *More people* *are killed by guns* in the U.S. then in Canada and other countries that have no carry gun laws.


Of course there are, since there are a lot more people.
Some of the "countries" you want to use as comparisons are smaller than some of our states.

Reality remains the defensive use of guns *saves* more lives.
You're all for "defense" on another thread.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

what I am waiting for to happen is for one of the good guys shooting another good guy , mistakenly thinking he is one of the bad guys..
I wonder if a closed minded gun hater would be thankful for a person with a gun shooting a shooter , thus saving his life..?


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

I don't know who said it, but I agree: "I'm all for gun control. If there's a gun around I want to control it."


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

[email protected] said:


> what I am waiting for to happen is for one of the good guys shooting another good guy , mistakenly thinking he is one of the bad guys..


Listening to some of the more wild eyed skeptics of personal defense freedom, I think they may be waiting for that moment to raise their finger and point to their own diorama of the wild west with blood running in the streets and innocents running for their lives. Then they can say "See, I told you so."
Ironically, there are cities in America where that scene takes place every day and every night, but it isn't the good guys doing the shooting.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> what I am waiting for to happen is for one of the good guys shooting another good guy , mistakenly thinking he is one of the bad guys..


The police have done that.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

gilberte said:


> I don't know who said it





> I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.
> 
> Clint Eastwood


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

muleskinner2 said:


> After the shooting is over, and everyone else is closing in on the killer, the Paster is crawling around on his hands and knees.


I guess he's not Rambo, just a preacher


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

thesedays said:


> So, let's just eliminate all laws, mmmkay, because criminals don't follow them anyway.


Laws give us recourse when someone breaks them. If one wants to kill someone, no law will stop him, but, it will give us recourse to put him a way or kill him. How about this, the next time someone breaks the law, we punish you? That is how gun control works.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Cornhusker said:


> I guess he's not Rambo, just a preacher


What disturbed me, about the pastor, was when he was quoted as saying "thank you" to the government for allowing members of his church to carry guns. That is the mentality that we must fight against. Our humanity allows us to possess and use the means to defend ourselves from any and all aggressors. Government either attempts to infringe upon that right, or, not.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Thanks, I knew there was a reason I like that guy.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

MichaelZ said:


> The hero in this case used the gun below (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=newssearch&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwii4bvQmd7mAhXQW80KHXsWDWsQxfQBCCcwAA&url=https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/jack-wilson-the-man-who-took-out-the-active-shooter-at-a-texas-church/287-6967b825-b74a-452d-a76a-c25bf559c20e&usg=AOvVaw3ppgWCH7bm0YUhH5lxcOsC ) at a distance of about 50 ft. He certainly was well trained. He did what he had to do and for that I admire his courage.
> View attachment 82288


Good choice in guns


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

The Paw said:


> I don't necessarily think that turning to a Christian God is the answer for everyone, but aside from that, I think you raise an interesting point. There is a certain angry nihilism that seems to be animating these mass shooters,* the rabid alt-right, the anti-Semites and white nationalists*. Wherever that anger stems from, it seems pretty clear that standard religious options aren't working for these guys. I think at one time, church and family served as a foundation for many, that kept them from coming unmoored, but it seems equally clear that organized religion has been receding in importance as an institution. I'm not sure the answer is necessarily to turn the clock back though. Church is fine for those who want it, but maybe some other form of social attachment (or even spiritual connection in a different form) is required to respond to this unmet need.


You forgot to mention the radical left, leftist hate groups and those who are actually committing these atrocities.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

101pigs said:


> Other countries that have no carry guns in public etc. is one good reason why killing by guns is way lower then the U.S. Every person killed in the U.S. Or Canada by gun is relevant to me. It does not matter who/s statistics it is. More people are killed by guns in the U.S. then in Canada and other countries that have no carry gun laws.
> 
> Deaths by guns.
> U.S.A. 4.5/100K.
> ...


Mexico


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

101pigs said:


> Other countries that have no carry guns in public etc. is one good reason why killing by guns is way lower then the U.S. Every person killed in the U.S. Or Canada by gun is relevant to me. It does not matter who/s statistics it is. More people are killed by guns in the U.S. then in Canada and other countries that have no carry gun laws.
> 
> Deaths by guns.
> U.S.A. 4.5/100K.
> ...


Take guns out of the equation, remove the suicides and just look at violent crime.
More people are killed without guns than with guns in the USA


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> muleskinner2 said: ↑
> After the shooting is over, and everyone else is closing in on the killer, the Paster is crawling around on his hands and knees.


From his vantage point it wouldn't have been clear the shooting was over, and it's really not a bad move for those who weren't armed. 

Had everyone not armed dropped to the floor at the sound of the first shot, the man who ended it wouldn't have had to wait those extra seconds, and the bad guy wouldn't have had a clear shot at most of them.


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## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

I would not like to be in any room with anyone having a gun...i would leave...or the gun would leave...
Its simple as that...if you come to my home...u better be unarmed


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Meinecke said:


> I would not like to be in any room with anyone having a gun...i would leave...or the gun would leave...
> Its simple as that...if you come to my home...u better be unarmed


It would be disrespectful for me to bring a gun to your house when you feel that way.

In any other scenario, any other place, you would have to leave, you have just disrespected me in a much, much greater way.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Meinecke said:


> I would not like to be in any room with anyone having a gun...i would leave...or the gun would leave...


So you wouldn't call the police if you had an emergency?


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Meinecke said:


> I would not like to be in any room with anyone having a gun...i would leave...or the gun would leave...
> Its simple as that...if you come to my home...u better be unarmed


It is your castle, therefore your rules. I would just choose not to visit. See. We are both satisfied.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Meinecke said:


> I would not like to be in any room with anyone having a gun...i would leave...or the gun would leave...
> Its simple as that...if you come to my home...u better be unarmed


Those, who mean to do you harm, won't care that you don't want to be in a room with a gun. They won't care that you do not wish armed persons to be in your home.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Farmerga said:


> Those, who mean to do you harm, won't care that you don't want to be in a room with a gun. They won't care that you do not wish armed persons to be in your home.


They would be happy about it. A wolf prefers an easy kill


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Meinecke said:


> I would not like to be in any room with anyone having a gun...i would leave...or the gun would leave...
> Its simple as that...if you come to my home...u better be unarmed



Do you have a mailing address? Bulk discount available.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Cornhusker said:


> Mexico


And Brazil


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

muleskinner2 said:


> After the shooting is over, and everyone else is closing in on the killer, the Paster is crawling around on his hands and knees.


Well, he could be a coward. Or he could have problems getting up off the floor and is trying to find a way to get back up.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

thesedays said:


> And this makes him a coward why? I sure hope you never find out what you would do in this situation.


I have been in that situation, and in much worse situations. And I know exactly what I would do.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

muleskinner2 said:


> I have been in that situation, and in much worse situations. And I know exactly what I would do.


I would suggest most of us have not. I hope I go to my grave and never have killed someone. I would if I had to, but I still hope I do not have to.

I admire that you have proven you would, and that you could, and survive to tell us you have.

I thank God often that we have men that can and do fight for our country. I hope they always are proud of they fight they fight.


----------



## fireweed farm (Dec 31, 2010)

All I see is a mentally deranged nut bar that had easy access to a gun.
Then a firearms instructor, IN THE SAME ROOM, who permitted that nut bar to kill TWO congregants before dispatching him.
A nut bar with a knife would have caused less damage.


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Meinecke said:


> I would not like to be in any room with anyone having a gun...i would leave...or the gun would leave...
> Its simple as that...if you come to my home...u better be unarmed


I'd be willing to bet that you're in the room with guns on a regular basis whether you know it or not..that is unless you never leave your home. And while I support your right to live as you please ,and control your own home and property ,you have no rights to control others or public property. So you'd be the one leaving 99% of the time around here.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The guy who saved dozens of church goers is responsible for the two that were killed....go figure.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

fireweed farm said:


> All I see is a mentally deranged nut bar that had easy access to a gun.
> Then a firearms instructor, IN THE SAME ROOM, who permitted that nut bar to kill TWO congregants before dispatching him.
> A nut bar with a knife would have caused less damage.


The firearms instructor didn't permit anyone to do anything...he took the first clear shot he had and it was an amazing shot at that...a head shot on a moving target and considerable distance with only a handgun. Had he fired sooner he'd have endangered other innocent people...Three things are obvious to me,you have a clear bias against guns and you know nothing about their application in a gun fight. And you have no clue as to the damage that can be done by an attacker with an edged weapon !!!


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Mental hopscotch. Skipped right over reality.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

the whole incident took only seconds.
the good guy had a long shot with a short gun.
How does he get blamed for "permitting" anything ?
I have great admiration for anybody who can hit anything with a short gun..


----------



## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

fireweed farm said:


> All I see is a mentally deranged nut bar that had easy access to a gun.
> Then a firearms instructor, IN THE SAME ROOM, who permitted that nut bar to kill TWO congregants before dispatching him.
> A nut bar with a knife would have caused less damage.


I read a report the "nut bar" was a convicted felon. It was already illegal for him to own or possess a gun. What other law would have stopped him?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

nchobbyfarm said:


> It was already illegal for him to own or possess a gun. What other law would have stopped him?


I don't know but I'm sure the influencers will work on it.

Doubly extra cocko deluxe illegal.


----------



## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

I find it curious that the gunman was able to even enter the church wearing a wig and false beard that he constantly fiddle with and worst of all, was able to enter with and sit down with his shotgun. Obviously no security at the door. I consider his death to be his just deserts but the security team should never have let him enter the church.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

fireweed farm said:


> All I see is a mentally deranged nut bar that had easy access to a gun.
> Then a firearms instructor, IN THE SAME ROOM, who permitted that nut bar to kill TWO congregants before dispatching him.
> A nut bar with a knife would have caused less damage.


You seem confused about the realities of the situation.

You should watch the video again, and keep in mind the entire incident only took about 5 normal heartbeats.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

fireweed farm said:


> A nut bar with a knife would have caused less damage.


Just for the sake of discussion, not argument, supposed this deranged nutbar had only his trusty KBAR.

By waiting for heads bowed, say during prayer or communion, maybe eyes closed, how many innocent throats do you think he could have slit before someone realized what was happening?


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

emdeengee said:


> I find it curious that the gunman was able to even enter the church wearing a wig and false beard that he constantly fiddle with and worst of all, was able to enter with and sit down with his shotgun. Obviously no security at the door. I consider his death to be his just deserts but the security team should never have let him enter the church.


I've never seen a church that screened people at the door.

The average person pays too little attention to what goes on around them.

There's a real need for better situational awareness on everyone's part, just as there is a need to be capable of defending yourself against all possibilities.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Churches here screen people. It has become a normal practice in the last few years. Each person is greeted at the door if they are new to the congregation.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

It is a different world so even if screening people at the church door has not been politically, socially or religiously correct it should be now. If the gunman had not entered the church at all the tragedy would have been avoided. Two people killed in this shooting, 26 in the Sutherland Springs shooting in 2017.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

How does one at the door screen someone with a shotgun?
Or I suppose, how is it they turn them away?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

fireweed farm said:


> All I see is a mentally deranged nut bar that had easy access to a gun.
> Then a firearms instructor, IN THE SAME ROOM, who permitted that nut bar to kill TWO congregants before dispatching him.
> A nut bar with a knife would have caused less damage.


I see a nut bar too, or more accurately, I read the rants of a nut bar


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> How does one at the door screen someone with a shotgun?
> Or I suppose, how is it they turn them away?


It is situational awareness. They would have noticed the wig and fake beard. They would have a short discussion and be watching if warranted. I believe that they also ask people to check their coats in some churches as a precaution these days.

We have proof that others having a gun did not stop this man using his gun. In stopped him but maybe he also could have been stopped in another way.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

emdeengee said:


> I find it curious that the gunman was able to even enter the church wearing a wig and false beard that he constantly fiddle with and worst of all, was able to enter with and sit down with his shotgun. Obviously no security at the door. I consider his death to be his just deserts but the security team should never have let him enter the church.


We have those different than ourselves visit our church. We welcome all comers. Some do look and act strange.


----------



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

People always want to bring Canada into a gun control conversation. Canada is irrelevant to this and many other conversations. You need to look at similar sized nations with similar population densities and similar demographics, as well as similar historic gun ownership tendencies.

There are enough guns in the United States that people have forgotten about to keep criminals armed for the next hundred years. Have friends that remodel old houses and others that have handled estate dispersal. There are guns in walls, guns under beds, guns in workshops, and ammo everywhere. If we made them illegal, of course they would become much more valuable, and people might start looking for them more vigorously, and go for any that were functional instead of just what was in style.

If you knock out the areas of the US that are run by the folks that are gun control proponents, our gun homicide rates come well to within per capita rates from small European nations the size of Rhode Island. New York and Chicago are proof that American gun control is a dismal failure, making people far less safe. The incident in Texas, in contrast to last years Texas incident which happened before laws allowed carry in places of worship is another prime example of how guns save lives in the United States. 

Our suicide rates are horrible, and this impacts our total gun death statistics. It's easy to see how the sniveling whiners who want to outlaw anything fun could lead to a depressed mental state in America. You can definitely see the cloud of depression when you go to the parts of America that have their Jim Crow gun laws still in place. Those people have little to live for, and the worst elements in those areas still manage to get guns, just as they do in Canada. 

Gun control in this nation came about as a means of oppressing people of races considered inferior. Our forefathers knew the only way to make people equal was to allow them to be armed. If we lived in a magical fairy tale world where you could find all of the hidden guns in this country, all of the millions of them, and that guy had chosen a knife, that old guy that was in charge of church security might not have been quick and strong enough to have saved lives as efficiently as he did. In that world, the young, quick, and strong have power over everyone else. In our world, even an old geezer can come out on top in a battle between people intent to harm others and people who choose to protect others.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Churches here screen people. It has become a normal practice in the last few years. Each person is greeted at the door if they are new to the congregation.


How many have been refused entry?

What would you imagine would cause one to be turned away?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The view of churches, local to us, is to open their doors to anyone.
Biblically, the church is for the corrupt and the miserable; the homeless, the bottom of the barrel and yes, the dirty and maladjusted. Christ doesn't need people with suits and checkbooks.
Someone with a paste on beard and a bulge in their coat would be eyes locked on from the front stoop, but unless the threat is obvious, you hover.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Their doors are open here as well but when the rash of church shooting started they started to take precautions. Security teams, greeting at the door etc.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I wonder if the folks who believe no guns equals less murder and less crime also follow that absolute with drug addiction, abstinence (works everytime it is tried ). Seems if we just outlawed abortion and eliminated heroin life would be corrected.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

I just read a report that the preacher said the shooter was known to the church. The church had provided him food assistance in the past and that he would get angry when they wouldn't provide him with cash. Might be why he could enter with the wig and fake beard. He had demonstrated odd behaviors in the past.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Pistol grip. Short barrel. Perhaps we are getting more information here in Texas.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Pistol grip. Short barrel. Perhaps we are getting more information here in Texas.


A shotgun?


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Yes.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Those of us with “good eye(s)” knew the following detail already. 

https://pluralist.com/jack-wilson-white-settlement-shooting-texas-armed-churchgoers/


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

fireweed farm said:


> All I see is a mentally deranged nut bar that had easy access to a gun.
> Then a firearms instructor, IN THE SAME ROOM, who permitted that nut bar to kill TWO congregants before dispatching him.
> A nut bar with a knife would have caused less damage.


Some "nut bar" comes at you with a knife.
What do you do?


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Churches here screen people. It has become a normal practice in the last few years. Each person is greeted at the door if they are new to the congregation.


Do they frisk all of them?


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Their doors are open here as well but when the rash of church shooting started they started to take precautions. Security teams, greeting at the door etc.


Are the security teams armed?
What happens if someone is trying to get in with a shotgun?


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

fireweed farm said:


> All I see is a mentally deranged nut bar that had easy access to a gun.
> Then a firearms instructor, IN THE SAME ROOM, who permitted that nut bar to kill TWO congregants before dispatching him.
> A nut bar with a knife would have caused less damage.


That's likely true but even with gun control, we can't seem to keep guns out of the hands of those that shouldn't have them. 

A very nice young man, with a super bright future was just shot and killed on the highway a few nights ago for no better reason than he crossed paths with a hotheaded wannabe gangster. 

The gun was legally owned by gangster boy's girlfriend but I guess ganster boy had the safe code as well and he decided we needed on less native in the world. Gangster boy will serve some time but likely not all that much. 

It's also worth mentioning that in 2014, a nutball with a knife killed 5 university students at a house party in Calgary and given his particular type of mental illness, was never charged and scheduled for release into the community soon.


----------



## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

georger said:


> The presence of firearms in church, or in school, or anywhere in public is still extremely stupid in my opinion and can never be seen through my eyes as productive, useful or harmless.
> 
> Yea yea yea, the shooter was halted by other shooters. Why are these stupid hateful guns permitted in the first place? Had the initial shooter not possessed any firearms at all, there would have to be no further shootings.


 But there would have still been killings...….a nice uhaul at 80 mph would have been much more effective.....


Guns matter very little, people have been killing people since we had people.

If not for guns, it would be knives, swords,cars, ropes,suffocation,poison etc etc etc etc.


What guns do is give the weak a chance to defend themselves with very little training,...no one has time to train to be a ninja……..then the killings would simply be with throwing stars, swords, knifes, stick, stones and anything we can grasp at to kill each other...…...a trait I do not see changing anytime soon.


People on pikes, the rack and tarred and feathered did make a noticeable change in the crime mentality though,...too bad we are soo weak and self righteous to do any real actions that result in real change.


The real change is in people, taking guns knifes etc etc etc away, restriction is no change at all, education is change, whatever form that comes in...…..and I am perfectly OK if that education happens to be some evil doers brains splattered across the 7 O clock news such as this guy in the church...whatever works as education.


Restriction has never worked,...people intent on killing will find a tool. Fix the problem, do NOT take things away,...because you will have to take EVERY thing away and the second you turn your back, they will kill each other.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> painterswife said: ↑
> Churches here screen people. It has become a normal practice in the last few years. Each person is greeted at the door if they are new to the congregation.


So you say.



painterswife said:


> We have proof that others *having a gun did not stop this man using his gun*. In stopped him but *maybe he also could have been stopped in another way*.


We have proof he was stopped before he could kill anyone else.
It's sad to see people so anti-gun that they deny obvious reality.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Churches here screen people. It has become a normal practice in the last few years. Each person is greeted at the door if they are new to the congregation.


Does your church do it?


----------



## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

emdeengee said:


> It is a different world so even if screening people at the church door has not been politically, socially or religiously correct it should be now. If the gunman had not entered the church at all the tragedy would have been avoided. Two people killed in this shooting, 26 in the Sutherland Springs shooting in 2017.


The Sutherland Springs shooter was related to many of the members, and had gone there for some years.

The Charleston shooter (I know his name but won't use it here) was a guest at a Bible study, and (this is the most disturbing thing about it) he told the arresting officer, "I almost didn't do it, because they were so nice to me." 

What criteria would (generic) you use to screen new parishioners?


----------



## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> what I am waiting for to happen is for one of the good guys shooting another good guy , mistakenly thinking he is one of the bad guys.


This exact scenario almost happened at the Gabrielle Giffords shooting. A man who had a legal concealed weapon saw a man holding a rifle and almost shot him, and didn't because he wasn't 100% sure this man was the shooter. And he wasn't; he had wrestled the shooter to the ground, with some other men, and grabbed his weapon.


----------



## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Do you have a mailing address? Bulk discount available.


I've heard that burglars look for NRA or other similar bumper stickers and placards around houses, because they know those houses will often have valuables, including firearms, just laying around.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Pistol grip. Short barrel. Perhaps we are getting more information here in Texas.


Yep, that was the first thing I noticed. Only it didn't have a "short" barrel. It looked like a legal pistol grip pump shotgun.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Farmerga said:


> What disturbed me, about the pastor, was when he was quoted as saying "thank you" to the government for allowing members of his church to carry guns. That is the mentality that we must fight against. Our humanity allows us to possess and use the means to defend ourselves from any and all aggressors. Government either attempts to infringe upon that right, or, not.


Here, Here!!


There’s a profoundly dark irony in a man of God, thankful for narrowly avoiding death at the hands of a murderer, while in a house built in Reverence to Him, giving thanks to a government of men, for _allowing_ his brothers to defend themselves.


There are three types of people in this world; Americans who understand why we have the 2nd amendment, Americans who voluntarily live at the mercy of others, and those who are damned to helplessness by the so-called wisdom of their own governors.


----------



## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

_https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhs...-asked-about-defensive-gun-uses/#6c821a3299aa

Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.
_
The CDC study on defensive gun use. 

Other statistics say there are about 30,000 deaths by gun in the US each year. This is unfairly spinning the facts though because it includes suicides which are 2/3. So about 10,000 actual murders vs half a million to 3 million defensive uses. No brainer.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

GTX63 said:


> How does one at the door screen someone with a shotgun?
> Or I suppose, how is it they turn them away?


They need to work on their profiling skills. Yes I said it, the evil P word. In a security protection detail, profiling is one of your most important tools. When someone approaches an entrance they are met by a three man screening detail. For a small church the greeter should know everybody at least well enough to tell if they are a regular member. If they are unknown or for some reason set off his radar, they are stopped and asked a few questions. 

When they stop they are blocked by the greeter, and flanked by the other two. If they are wearing a black trench coat, a hoodie, a fake beard and a wig, you might ask them a few questions. If they are armed you can ask to see their CCW permit. It is much safer to deal with them at the entrance, where the security detail is alert and looking for trouble. Remember we are talking about entering private property. They can be turned away or denied entrance for any reason.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

thesedays said:


> I've heard that burglars look for NRA or other similar bumper stickers and placards around houses, because they know those houses will often have valuables, including firearms, just laying around.


Right, I never display any kind of sticker or decal on my vehicles.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> And Brazil


They are starting to allow guns in Brazil now I think too keep the crime down.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

I replied earlier about the nutbar. after thinking about it some more, I might have to agree with the poster.
I now think that the security people should shoot anybody who they deem looks suspectious (sp) .
that way only one person dies. if they happen to be innocent, so be it. the total number of dead is just one.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Chumming.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

facetious


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Oblivious


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

and


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

frivolously


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

vapid.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

titillating (just because it's fun to say)


----------



## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

BORING.


----------



## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

SRSLADE said:


> BORING.


U have choices!


----------



## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You seem confused about the realities of the situation.
> 
> You should watch the video again, and keep in mind the entire incident only took about 5 normal heartbeats.


 It would have taken a lot of folks that long to get their thumb out of their mouth (or other orifice).


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

SRSLADE said:


> BORING.


And yet here you are on page 11....lol


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

thesedays said:


> I've heard that burglars look for NRA or other similar bumper stickers and placards around houses, because they know those houses will often have valuables, including firearms, just laying around.


Come get 'em


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

muleskinner2 said:


> They need to work on their profiling skills. Yes I said it, the evil P word. In a security protection detail, profiling is one of your most important tools. When someone approaches an entrance they are met by a three man screening detail. For a small church the greeter should know everybody at least well enough to tell if they are a regular member. If they are unknown or for some reason set off his radar, they are stopped and asked a few questions.
> 
> When they stop they are blocked by the greeter, and flanked by the other two. If they are wearing a black trench coat, a hoodie, a fake beard and a wig, you might ask them a few questions. If they are armed you can ask to see their CCW permit. It is much safer to deal with them at the entrance, where the security detail is alert and looking for trouble. Remember we are talking about entering private property. They can be turned away or denied entrance for any reason.


I have never seen a church put people at the door with any intention of turning folks away. Instead, they are put there to welcome strangers in.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

thesedays said:


> What criteria would (generic) you use to screen new parishioners?


Maybe people should be required to strip naked before entering the church.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> titillating (just because it's fun to say)


And it contains the word "tit"


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

There you go.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Here we are


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Together again!


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Cornhusker said:


> And it contains the word "tit"


That's the fun part.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Cornhusker said:


> Maybe people should be required to strip naked before entering the church.


Sounds like one of those freaky 1970's hippy communes.
Very titillating.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

HDRider said:


> I have never seen a church put people at the door with any intention of turning folks away. Instead, they are put there to welcome strangers in.


And that is why people will continue to die in church shootings. It need not be your intention to turn them away, rather to shoot them if need be. Just saying.

Be polite, be professional, and most of all be prepared to kill everyone you meet. Words to live by.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

muleskinner2 said:


> And that is why people will continue to die in church shootings. It need not be your intention to turn them away, rather to shoot them if need be. Just saying.
> 
> Be polite, be professional, and most of all be prepared to kill everyone you meet. Words to live by.


Christ himself was killed in a fight.


----------



## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

HDRider said:


> Christ himself was killed in a fight.


What Bible do you read?


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mnn2501 said:


> What Bible do you read?


The one where Jesus fought the old laws
Died and resurrected


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

According to the FBI, over 200,000 background check requests associated with the purchase of a firearm were submitted to the agency on Black Friday, marking the second highest gun sales day ever. The previous record was set on the day after Thanksgiving in 2016.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

And a fine day it was.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Is


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> According to the FBI, over 200,000 background check requests associated with the purchase of a firearm were submitted to the agency on Black Friday, marking the second highest gun sales day ever.


Lots of states don't require checks for those who have a concealed carry license, so the number of sales is always higher. 

There is also no Federal limit to the number of firearms that can be purchased through one check.
I've personally seen as many as 5 on the same Form 4473.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Today is January 1, not the day after Thanksgiving, unless you have been time traveling again. 

And it is a FINE day today.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Today is January 1, not the day after Thanksgiving, unless you have been time traveling again.
> 
> And it is a FINE day today.


I'll use more words next time


----------



## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

HDRider said:


> According to the FBI, over 200,000 background check requests associated with the purchase of a firearm were submitted to the agency on Black Friday, marking the second highest gun sales day ever. The previous record was set on the day after Thanksgiving in 2016.


Those are the biggest sales days, period.

99%-plus of those requests are probably going to be for people for whom I would have no issue with them owning guns, because they're going to have them for the right reasons.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> I'll use more words next time


See if you can work in "titillating".


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> See if you can work in "titillating".


The altitude of the petition you ask requires much attitude and udder rumination.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

thesedays said:


> Those are the biggest sales days, period.
> 
> 99%-plus of those requests are probably going to be for people for whom I would have no issue with them owning guns, because they're going to have them for the right reasons.


Right, otherwise they would not pass the background check


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> See if you can work in "titillating".


I can always work in titillating


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Cornhusker said:


> Maybe people should be required to strip naked before entering the church.


No I wouldn't want that. There a lot of people who I would risk them shooting me, rather than see them naked.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mreynolds said:


> udder


Heh heh heh.........you said "udder".

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Touch hole.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

SRSLADE said:


> Touch hole.


LOL

I declare you winner.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> I declare you winner.


Under what authority?


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Under what authority?


That is above your level of "need to know"


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> That is above your level of "need to know"


Yours too, it seems. 
Carry on.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Yours too, it seems.
> Carry on.


That comeback is deemed a big fail. Carry on.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Heh heh heh.........you said "udder".
> 
> __
> Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
> Show Content


Dang auto correct....


----------



## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Don't forget to powder your touch hole.


----------



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Meinecke said:


> I would not like to be in any room with anyone having a gun...i would leave...or the gun would leave...
> Its simple as that...if you come to my home...u better be unarmed


If you travel to another state like Pennsylvania and buy something at a Walmart, etc. you might be shocked at how many people in the checkout lane with you are carrying a gun.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Meinecke said:


> I would not like to be in any room with anyone having a gun...i would leave...or the gun would leave...
> Its simple as that...if you come to my home...u better be unarmed


Or what? You'll take my gun away from me? Hit me with a rolled up newspaper maybe?


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

I thought more like fifty feet, but it was a very good shot by a man who had shot many, many times in practice. Fellows I know who are that good have belonged to pistol teams and practiced for years. Some shoot literally hundreds of rounds in a month at the range. 

It always amazed me to enter someone's reloading room and see a five gallon bucket half full of brass to be reloaded. When I started reloading .357 a friend brought me a thousand brass cases. His dad was an LEO whose agency provided its officers training ammo and did not require them to account for the brass.
I still have some of that brass.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Some people are very anti-gun, and they have every right to feel that way. But in the US we do, in most places (as guaranteed by our constitution), have the _right_ to bear arms. It is a shame that politicians mistakenly believe "gun free" zones will be honored by criminals.

Since criminals are free to carry illegal firearms wherever they wish, the best option is to have trained, armed citizens that are capable of eliminating criminals who intend to kill or harm other citizens.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Darren said:


> If you travel to another state like Pennsylvania and buy something at a Walmart, etc. you might be shocked at how many people in the checkout lane with you are carrying a gun.


And I don't have a problem with it as long as the guns have been legally obtained and they aren't grandstanding about it.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

thesedays said:


> And I don't have a problem with it as long as the guns have been legally obtained and they aren't grandstanding about it.


I buy or trade for my guns. That's the legal way. Most folks never know when I'm carrying, so no, not grandstanding either.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I buy or trade for my guns. That's the legal way. Most folks never know when I'm carrying, so no, not grandstanding either.


When you trade do you pay the tax related to that trade?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SRSLADE said:


> When you trade do you pay the tax related to that trade.


Of course. The tax man must get his cut in all transactions.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> When you trade do you pay the tax related to that trade.


What tax?
Can you show the statutes?


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

) 








*Search Results*
*Featured snippet from the web*
Because "*barter* dollars," the fair market value of the goods and services you received, are *taxed* as if they are cash, you can owe income *tax*, self-employment *tax*, employment *tax*, or even excise *tax* on your *bartering* income -- even if you don't actually receive a penny in cash.
*IRS Cautions: Bartering Transactions Are Taxable Transactions*

https://www.bizfilings.com › toolkit › managing-your-taxes › federal-taxes


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

It may seem trite but it bears repeating: "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns". Sorry, don't know who to attribute it to.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

"If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns"
Gilberte


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> )


Income tax is on "profits".
If it's an even trade, there are none.

Most states have no sales tax on private sales.
Your examples are all related to businesses.

I declare you the loser.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

SRSLADE said:


> )
> *Search Results*
> *Featured snippet from the web*
> Because "*barter* dollars," the fair market value of the goods and services you received, are *taxed* as if they are cash, you can owe income *tax*, self-employment *tax*, employment *tax*, or even excise *tax* on your *bartering* income -- even if you don't actually receive a penny in cash.
> ...


Yup. As you've stated the IRS mandates tax on all bartered goods.

"Bartering is the trading of one product or service for another. Often there is no exchange of cash. Some businesses barter to get products or services they need. For example, a gardener might trade landscape work with a plumber for plumbing work.

*If you barter, you should know that the value of products or services from bartering is taxable income. This is true even if you are not in business*."

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/bartering-income-the-value-of-property-or-services-you-receive

I declare you the loser.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Yup. As you've stated the *IRS mandates tax* *on all bartered goods*.


That's not what it says.

Tax is only paid on profits or "gains".

I'm sure you'll be reporting the snow blowing services you received though.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

At least you now have some understanding of the tax codes.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

SRSLADE said:


> At least you now have some understanding of the tax codes.


I'll give that all the consideration it deserves.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)




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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

That is what is taught in the License to Carry class.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)




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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Seeing that no one brought the recent attacks on Jews in NYC, I thought we were ignoring violence now.
> 
> Why is this one HT worthy, when the attacks in NYC are not?


I'm surprised no one mentioned the difference between NYC and Texas in fourteen pages of back and forth. In a nutshell Texas doesn't infringe on individuals' right to defend themselves while NYC has a long history of restricting firearms for personal defense.

Did we miss something? Yep!

A prepared person terminated the situation in the Texas church while in NYC a home invader wreaked havoc with the only defensive weapon being chairs.

One of the members of the Pittsburgh Tree of Life Synagogue was a resident at the VA hospital in Pittsburgh. After the attack she considered purchasing a firearm and getting training. Since she's since moved to another hospital to head up a program I have no idea if she got training. The point is in Pennsylvania she has that choice unlike NYC.

So if you move to NYC invest in defensive chairs for home defense. Practice begging for your life in case you're attacked in public.

In Pennsylvania buy a firearm, get the training, get a CCW and become a life threatening hazard to criminals.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

@Darren people are very susceptible to conditioning and repetition. Many in some states have had any sense of SELF defense driven out of them.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

It looks like there is little left to discuss on this one.


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