# dogs first fox, finally



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

the title says it all


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## CSA again (May 2, 2007)

tell us more


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

not such a cool story
I live on cherry point MCAS and the Croatan National forest is a huge swamp between here & Camp Lejuene. some of it has 200-500 acre patches of coastal savannah and food plots. we go out and work the edges of the heavy swamp growth in these open areas and try to catch deer, fox & anything else we run into. most game doesn't get more than 20-30yds from the treeline. so it's not really good running ground especially for a big dog like Sonic (linebred salukiXgrey 29 1/2 " & 70#). well we'd gotten out for an hour after work and had a the usual couple of missed runs on deer kicked out of their beds or coming early to browse. happy w/ his effort but disappointed in his run up i decided to call it a day since the sun is just down. w/ Sonic freecasting around me, i walked back to the truck parked at an intersection of national forest roads. i got to the truck and dropped the tailgate for him to load up. as i did i saw out the corner of my eye a small grey & black blur zip out about 10 yds in front of the truck. simultaneousy Sonic ROCKETS past. i get around the truck to see he's caught the large vixen around the hips about 10' from the other treeline. he takes a hard bite from her. in return he gives her a hard shake and throws her into the road. just as she regains her feet he hits her from behind and grabs her whole head. between shaking & gnawing he finally kills the fox. from where she left the treeline to where she was caught near the other treeline was about 40yds. Sonic only had to cover 50-55yds from where he started to where he caught her. just dumb luck, but i'm happy that he finally scored. he has now officially caught hogs, 1 mule deer, possum, *****, feral cats, squirrels, rabbits & 1 grey fox. now i just want to get him caught on a whitetail, a red & a coyote. in the mean time we'll take all the grey's, feral cats, ***** & hogs we can get.


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## CSA again (May 2, 2007)

yea... thats a cool story.
Nice Dog.. sure looks fast.
thanks for shareing


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## coup (Feb 28, 2007)

doesn't sound legal or ethic wise ..........


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## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

Look at the size of those legs! 

I don't imagine that too many critters can outrun him. Good job, Sonic.:clap:


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## zookeeper16 (May 10, 2002)

Is this legal? I don't think here it would be....


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## bluesky (Mar 22, 2008)

I wouldn't let that dog near a small child or a domestic animal. How's he supposed to know the difference?


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## Janis Sauncy (Apr 11, 2006)

So, is this considered "sport" in your neck of the woods?

I'd call it something else, myself, and none of it flattering.

Janis


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

here we shoot dogs that run deer. I guess if its legal there I have no problem with it but I sure would hate to see your dog run in front of my blind or treestand. Dont get me wrong I have no problem hunting with dogs but in my mind they lead you to the game or
just tire it out and leave it to you to kill it! from one of the earlier posts how does he tell the difference between livestock and children? seems like a problem waiting to happen.
here you can hunt birds,rabbits,squirls and ***** with dogs ( at one time bear think they repeled that) but again they just do the foot work! So Im not sure how I feel about it.


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## cur huntin' kid (Apr 15, 2007)

Dogs know the difference in children and animals. I have seen dogs trained to hunt **** but would sleep with a cat. So I think deer and cows look, smell, and act differently enough to a dog that they know its not the same. Now a dog might need to be taught that they cant chase cows but its not hard, dogs are smart. People think because a dog will kill one type of animal that it will kill anything including kids. This is not the case most hunting dogs are trained very well. Most have more training than your house dog and your house dog isn't killing your kids, is it?
Oh ya great looking dog, keep him in the woods.


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

Not much of a sport to me. I can't see dogs bucthering something just for the "sport" of it. Running deer isn't even legal in most places. Hogs you can eat but just doing something to see it done ain't too exciting IMO.


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## NWoods_Hippie (Nov 16, 2006)

Hey Pops2, why didn't you post this pic along with the other one you posted? Didn't want folks to see a dead CAT next to the fox. Some folks may find your dog training/hunting (Ha Ha Haaaa) behavior acceptable, I myself find it "killing for the LOVE of KILLING".










I fully expect to be banned from the site for this, but what you are doing is wrong!!

Margie


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

I have to agree with NWH about this. Pops2, you've mentioned in a previous post that you use stray cats to train your dog to kill. You said the dog doesn't have enough power in it's jaws to kill them outright and has to slowly suffocate them by clamping down on their throats.

I have to wonder where the "stray" cats come from, hmmmm? Not quite sporting in my way of thinking.



NWoods_Hippie said:


> Hey Pops2, why didn't you post this pic along with the other one you posted? Didn't want folks to see a dead CAT next to the fox. Some folks may find your dog training/hunting (Ha Ha Haaaa) behavior acceptable, I myself find it "killing for the LOVE of KILLING".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Janis Sauncy (Apr 11, 2006)

Sick.


Janis


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

1st where i hunt is almost 70,000 acres of public land much of it designated wilderness. while much of this is coastal swamp some is also coastal savannah w/ longleaf pine overstory that USED to support large populations of quail & cottontails. there are THOUSANDS of FERAL (domestic living in a wild state w/o human assistance) cats originating w/ weak hearted &/or irresponsible people who abandoned or failed to control their ancestors. although they provide food for bobs, fox, coyote, raccoon, raptors and alligators, the cats have a severe & adverse impact on native wildlife including but not limited to endangered reptiles, amphibians and songbirds. i (and any hunter who asks) have therefore been greenlighted (by several layers of wildlife LEO) to kill any feral cat i see while hunting. this is something most hunters do anyway as a conservation measure, even if they don't ask first.

legality
few if any states regulate what contact a hunting dog may make w/ the prey animal. they generally only regulate what prey may be intentionally hunted. in the case of almost all southern states, dogs may be used to hunt deer in at least some portion of the state (this is the case here). in most states (not just southern ones) fox hunting w/ dogs is legal year round as long as the hunter DOES NOT posess a firearm, bow or crossbow. many states treat most nonnative wildlife/nuisance species the same way. for obvious political reasons, feral cats are usually left in legal limbo of not being legal game but also not being illegal game.

ethics
i usually do NOT carry a gun when hunting (this includes boar & bear). i run dogs. as it was put to Dutch Salmon once, I am for the most part a spectator. after the kill is made most of you change the channel from discovery or national geo to HBO, i take the wolf home and patch him up if needed. his efforts fill his stomach & sometimes ours (FTR cat tastes like pork and is very tender). he ate the fox pictured and part of the cat (not in one sitting), some of it went into my wok (no joke intended, i really made stir fry from the hind quarters). usually even w/a cat it is dead before i catch up. occassionally the animal is still alive when i get there, for humanity's sake i finish it quickly.
unlike wild predators we don't take more than can be used before it rots. like wild predators those that escape (most of them) contribute to and improve the gene pool as those caught are in some way deficient compared to those that escape. (deer shooters OTH target prime breeding males.) further feral cats as previously mentions are a nonative species w/ a damaging effect on the native wildlife. as such, i will make every effort to eradicate them just like the coyote & the hogs.

Hippie (& others)
i didn't post the pic because, as i stated before, it is a much more politically volatile issue than it used to be (once upon a time, before walt disney there were bounties paid on feral cats). it is however acceptable in other countries where their threat to native wildlife is more widely known and unappreciated. in those countries it is considered a mark of a good conservationist to eliminate them. i participate in forums based in those countries and post pics of caught feral cats there where it is appreciated.
yes i enjoy watching my dog do what god created dogs to do, prey on other animals. however as a domesticated predator i can direct his actions in the most biologically positive direction. i am not ashamed of this but also do not wish to overtly antagonize anyone either.
some people (including some hunters) will never approve since they have placed the feral version of their sweet fluffy above the wildlife. i have placed them exactly opposite. we will never agree and i don't care.


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

Very well said, Pops2!

Feral cats are a killing machine, when it comes to small wildlife. They've got no business here, and I dispose of any I see.

Never hunted with running dogs or hounds, but I've had some stock dogs that loved hitting on coyotes. It's a natural sport.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Pops2, aren't you concerned about the health risks of feeding feral cat to your family? Feral cats and foxes all over the world are hosts to a vast number of different species of parasites. Not all of them are contained within the digestive organs, some are in muscle and blood.


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

As are all wild animals, right? Or am I missing something?

I'm guessing cooking to a certain temperature kills all parasites?



naturelover said:


> Pops2, aren't you concerned about the health risks of feeding feral cat to your family? Feral cats and foxes all over the world are hosts to a vast number of different species of parasites. Not all of them are contained within the digestive organs, some are in muscle and blood.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

littlejoe said:


> As are all wild animals, right? Or am I missing something?
> 
> I'm guessing cooking to a certain temperature kills all parasites?


Not all parasites are killed from cooking, though most are. All wild animals have parasites, yes, especially helminths (i.e. gastrointestinal worms such as roundworms, tapeworms, hookworms, nematodes, etc.) but many animals have other parasites that are species specific. Cats have many parasites _other than helminths _that are species specific (specific to cats) and that can cause more harm to humans or other animals than they do to the cats. Some feline specific parasites are more prevalent depending on the region where the feral cats are and on the higher numbers of cats. Where there is a very high percentage of feral cats, the increase of different parasites goes up.

For example (from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7201187 ):

_Of 92 feral cats necropsied from the London and Sheffield areas, 49 (53.3%) were infected with Toxocara cati, 32 (34.8%) with Dipylidium caninum, 11 (12.0%) with Taenia taeniaeformis and 1 (1.1%) with Toxascaris leonina. Isospora felis was seen in 3 (4.3%) of 69 samples of faeces. Twenty-two cats (23.9%) were simultaneously infected with 2 helminth species.

Gastrointestinal helminths were collected from 58 necropsied stray cats (Felis catus) in the mid-Ebro Valley, North-East Spain, from December 1989 to March 1992. The prevalence was 89.7%, with those of individual parasites being Toxocara cati 55.2%C, Ancylostoma tubaeforme 29.3% Joyeuxiella pasqualei 55.2%, Diplopylidium acanthotetra 20.7%, Dipylidium caninum 20.7%, Mesocestoides spp. 13.8%, Taenia taeniformis 8.6% and Diplopylidium nÃ¶lleri 8.6%. In relation to sex, the differences were not significant. However, the season of the year significantly affected the prevalence of A. tubaeforme and D. acanthotetra.

Red fox (Vulpes vulpes) as reservoir of parasites and source of zoonosis. This review presents data from Europe and Poland on the prevalence of helminth and protozoan parasites in red foxes (Vulpes vulpes). The most common nematodes were geohelminths: Uncinaria stenocephala, Toxocara canis and Toxocara leonina. As concerning Trichinella genus T. britovi was found more often than T. spiralis. Among tapeworms the following species were recorded: Mesocestoides lineatus, Taenia sp., and Echinococcus multilocularis. Detected cases of E. multilocularis together with an increase of fox population during last few years create a potential human risk of infection. The results of many studies indicate rare presence of trematodes (Alaria alata) and protozoan parasites (Toxoplasma gondii, Neospora caninum, Leishmania spp., Eimeria spp.) in red foxes._


I'm not saying feral cats should not be disposed of for the purpose of nature conservation, just saying I think one should be very cautious about eating them. There are many wild animals could eat those cats and not be overly effected by the parasites but that's not the case with modern day humans. Humans are not physiologically equipped for dealing with some of these parasites and some of them there's no medical treatment for them.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Pops2 said:


> 1st where i hunt is almost 70,000 acres of public land much of it designated wilderness. while much of this is coastal swamp some is also coastal savannah w/ longleaf pine overstory that USED to support large populations of quail & cottontails. there are THOUSANDS of FERAL (domestic living in a wild state w/o human assistance) cats originating w/ weak hearted &/or irresponsible people who abandoned or failed to control their ancestors. although they provide food for bobs, fox, coyote, raccoon, raptors and alligators, the cats have a severe & adverse impact on native wildlife including but not limited to endangered reptiles, amphibians and songbirds. i (and any hunter who asks) have therefore been greenlighted (by several layers of wildlife LEO) to kill any feral cat i see while hunting. this is something most hunters do anyway as a conservation measure, even if they don't ask first.
> 
> legality
> few if any states regulate what contact a hunting dog may make w/ the prey animal. they generally only regulate what prey may be intentionally hunted. in the case of almost all southern states, dogs may be used to hunt deer in at least some portion of the state (this is the case here). in most states (not just southern ones) fox hunting w/ dogs is legal year round as long as the hunter DOES NOT posess a firearm, bow or crossbow. many states treat most nonnative wildlife/nuisance species the same way. for obvious political reasons, feral cats are usually left in legal limbo of not being legal game but also not being illegal game.


Think if you read the regulations running is allowed year round , running intails allowing dogs to chase and tree though not molest the prey. If the dog kills the prey while running in most cases you can be charged with hunting out of season. Taking possession of a killed animal as with the fox constitutes hunting . as far as I know wanton waste is illegal in all fifty states 
Being that you state your doing this on public land some of which may be subject to federal regulation you may be opening yourself up for a world of hurt.
At the vary least cruelty to animal charges have been filed against many who have sicced their dogs on cats weather domestic or feral


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Don
that's why it's important to read the regs. here under fox it's broken down by season dates. the 1st & 2nd season dates specify 2 per day 10 per SEASON and specifies that those taken in the first described season may not be bought or sold. htose taken in the 2nd season may be sold after being properly tagged. it then explains tags must be possessed prior to harvesting and notes that local county laws may authorize additional seasons. finally it states "Year Round- Must be TAKEN with dogs only;no limits" (my emphasis). further we have a year round training season here. the LEOs have instructed me that if a dog kills the game during training and the season is closed the carcass must be left at the spot of the kill and no violation has occurred. which is why it's important to talk to the guys who would be arresting you if you break the law, so that you understand what they understand to be the law and don't violate that. the federal guys are actually under a legal obligation to eradicate the cats (not just ferals either) due to the presence of threatened & endangered wildlife which they might prey upon. (if the native predators posed a significant threat they'd be obligated to thin them out too.)
i don't exactly sic him on anything, he's free casted so he decides for himself what to run except at night when i can use a light to unsight him. it just so happens that the same open areas in which i call up fox for him also support most of the feral cats which also come running to the sound of a woodpecker or cottontail in distress. what really amazes me is when they show up to a fox in distress (my so far unsuccessful attempts to call in coyote) when clearly anything that is chowing on a fox could chow on them. the main thing i do is stockbreak him & try to locate opportunities for him to catch legal stuff.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

United we stand Divided we fall. Any hunter, fisherman, trapper, or houndsman who don't support their fellow outdoorsmen in legal activities are playing right into the anti's hands.


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## cur huntin' kid (Apr 15, 2007)

Well said pops, I kill cats if my cur trees them. The guy I hunt with told me once that if the cats aren't around the buildings(barn, house, shed) they are fair game.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

Allen W said:


> United we stand Divided we fall. Any hunter, fisherman, trapper, or houndsman who don't support their fellow outdoorsmen in legal activities are playing right into the anti's hands.


Exactly right. 

Any time the PETA (PITA?) types can get us arguing among ourselves, or get one group trying to stop the (legal) activities of another, they couldn't be happier.

If this particular type of hunting doesn't appeal to you, then don't participate. Simple as that.


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## Snowdancer (Sep 23, 2002)

tyusclan said:


> Exactly right.
> 
> Any time the PETA (PITA?) types can get us arguing among ourselves, or get one group trying to stop the (legal) activities of another, they couldn't be happier.
> 
> If this particular type of hunting doesn't appeal to you, then don't participate. Simple as that.


Off topic but that is the same rationale that the Pro-Choice people use with the Anti-Abortion people regarding a legal procedure. Just sayin.....:icecream:


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

Snowdancer said:


> Off topic but that is the same rationale that the Pro-Choice people use with the Anti-Abortion people regarding a legal procedure. Just sayin.....:icecream:


I want to be sure I understand your point. Could you please explain exactly what you mean?


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## CSA again (May 2, 2007)

wow... I just thought ol' Sonic was a fast hound..
My mutley takes care of the ground hogs, a few rats , and keeps some **** and fox run off too. 
Mutley also knows the diffrence between a chicken in the pasture ( which he thinks is invisible ) and one outside the pasture which he holds down, till one of us puts it back in the pasture.
But the stray or feral cats ,and foxes have got us running over.
http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/speaker3.html
The combined total of pets and free-ranging cats in the U.S. is probably more than 100 million.
You can't even see a native song bird around here anymore. Here in NC we have a leash law thats states your animal can not run free on someone else's property. And if it does shoot first and ask questions later this applys to Dogs too.
We have taken some 40 foxes and untold stray cats and many dogs over the years.
Ol' Mutley can't run um all down. so we trap ,snare, put a 22 bullet in the head ,and add to the compost pile.
I don't eat um though , I've skinned out too many stray cats ...them things smell like a mink.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Allen
i absolutely agree. while i do not enjoy shooting deer (although i will to fill the freezer quickly) I would NEVER want to make the practice illegal. nor would i ban trapping or any other harvesting technique that is not in & of itself harmful to the environment (ie poisoning & dynamiting fish). just because i don't care for it doesn't make it right for me to oppose others' participation.


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## houndDogger (Mar 2, 2008)

Great job on the fox and a beautiful dog. I never had coursing dogs, just scent hounds but I always wanted to try running some yotes with greyhounds and wolfhounds. Real sad that some people live in a false world created by Disney. Nothing I hate worse than being 100 miles from the nearest house and catching a feral cat in my coyote or badger traps. Keep after it and keep those cats thinned out.


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## 2ndmouse (Jan 16, 2009)

All wild game has parasites. That's why you cook it! Rabbit meat has parasites, squirrel, **** opossum and groundhogs all have parasites.

In china they eat donkeys. In the Philippines they eat dogs. In texas they eat bulls testicles.

It's all meat. Big deal.


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## CSA again (May 2, 2007)

I can't beleave thay would do that in TEXAS !
.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

thats what they mean when they say texans "have some big balls" sorry couldnt help myself , I will attempt to controll myself in the future.


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