# Emergency Room Visits Continue to Rise



## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

http://kaiserhealthnews.org/morning...goal-emergency-room-visits-still-on-the-rise/



> News outlets report on the findings of a survey of E.R. doctors conducted in March in which about three-quarters said they had witnessed a continued increase in emergency visits -- which is the opposite of what many expected would happen once Obamacare took effect.


From the USAToday link (emphasis mine):


> A major reason that hasn't happened is there simply aren't enough primary care physicians to handle all the newly insured patients, says ACEP President Mike Gerardi, an emergency physician in New Jersey.
> 
> 
> "They don't have anywhere to go but the emergency room," he says. "This is what we predicted. We know people come because they have to."
> ...


Another lie & utterly irresponsible governing. 

And I'll remind folks that government power comes from _the consent of the governed._


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Txsteader said:


> http://kaiserhealthnews.org/morning...goal-emergency-room-visits-still-on-the-rise/
> 
> And I'll remind folks that government power *was supposed to* come from _the consent of the governed._


Fixed it for you.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

You are obviously wrong. ObummerUNcare is wonderful Everyone has loved it since last spring. It fixed everything.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

It's like anything else that stinks. People avoid it including doctors fed up with paperwork.


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## Kung (Jan 19, 2004)

Doctors and healthcare professionals called this years ago. What's amazing is that there are so many people within the healthcare industry (usually not actually providing healthcare, but providing what I'll call 'healthcare support' - IT people, coders, etc.) that actually support it.

You cannot rob Peter to pay Paul without someone feeling it.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Nevada likes 0care. Translate this news story for us Nevada.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Its clear this is false story planted by the racist republicans in a pitiful attempt to discredit the great and might O


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Nevada likes 0care. Translate this news story for us Nevada.


I can't, because it doesn't reflect what I'm seeing here. We have urgent care clinics all over town for emergencies that don't require the ER, and there are financial incentives to encourage using those clinics. You'll have to ask someone from a community where that's a problem.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> ObummerUNcare is wonderful Everyone has loved it since last spring. It fixed everything.


The ACA is not perfect, and not as good as Medicare, but it's helped a lot of people. I'm looking forward to August 1st when I go off Obamacare and start a Medicare Advantage HMO. I'll pay about $50 more monthly for Medicare but it's much better coverage. Still, I'm a lot better off with Obamacare than I was with no insurance at all.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Kung said:


> Doctors and healthcare professionals called this years ago. What's amazing is that there are so many people within the healthcare industry (usually not actually providing healthcare, but providing what I'll call 'healthcare support' - IT people, coders, etc.) that actually support it.
> 
> You cannot rob Peter to pay Paul without someone feeling it.


Kung, the people who run that coding services might like it because they make more money because the major hospitals outsourced their Mgt and coding jobs to them. My daughter has a degree in Health Mgt Information and her job was outsourced. She lost her retirement and she had almost 25 yrs in. She went to work at the hospital while she was still in college. She hates Obamacare. There is a constant turnover in Mgt jobs with these services and also with the coders. They operate out of a state 2000 miles away from some of the people who work for them like my DD. They are all going up on a new system that is way more complicated in the Fall.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> Kung, the people who run that coding services might like it because they make more money because the major hospitals outsourced their Mgt and coding jobs to them. My daughter has a degree in Health Mgt Information and her job was outsourced. She lost her retirement and she had almost 25 yrs in. She went to work at the hospital while she was still in college. She hates Obamacare. There is a constant turnover in Mgt jobs with these services and also with the coders. They operate out of a state 2000 miles away from some of the people who work for them like my DD. They are all going up on a new system that is way more complicated in the Fall.


Medical coding was around long before Obamacare.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Nevada said:


> Medical coding was around long before Obamacare.


Charts take twice as much time to do now because of all the new rules, details, and paperwork.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> Charts take twice as much time to do now because of all the new rules, details, and paperwork.


Paperwork? Doesn't the ACA require electronic records?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Paperwork? Doesn't the ACA require electronic records?


That's for the patients medical records
The insurance companies still have forms to fill out


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's for the patients medical records
> The insurance companies still have forms to fill out


I think it includes insurance claims.



*Reducing Paperwork and Administrative Costs.* Health care remains one of the few industries that relies on paper records. The new law will institute a series of changes to standardize billing and requires health plans to begin adopting and implementing rules for the secure, confidential, electronic exchange of health information. Using electronic health records will reduce paperwork and administrative burdens, cut costs, reduce medical errors and most importantly, improve the quality of care. _First regulation effective October 1, 2012._
http://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/facts/timeline/timeline-text.html


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

No, the Medical Coders who do the charts for the hospital are entirely different. They do the doctor's charts for hospitalizatons, inpatient and outpatient and ER services. My daughter used to to Utilization Review and deal with the ins. companies too about length of hospital stays but UR is done by nurses now. She has to go back to the hospital to work this fall even though she is paid now by the contracter. The new system requires going to school to learn the new system first, then training people at the hospital in other jobs in Medical Records.


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

My daughter works in a doctor's office, they still have paper records, but all must be entered into the computer. The new regulations do not benefit a patients health but appear to be made by bureaucrats. It is much more needlessly complicated now. Like anything when the government gets involved in anything it gets messed up. I still can't understand why some think the government is the solution to all problems when they make things worse by getting their nose into it. I keep reading Obama-care is in a death spiral, the first way is there are less providers as more rural hospitals close and doctors retire, and the second is the young healthy people are resisting signing up or if they did are failing to renew in sufficient numbers. This causes premiums to rise thus discouraging the young healthy crowd even more. This is allegedly what was planned all along so a government single payer system could be brought into play upon the ruins of the current system. 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhYJS80MgYA[/ame]


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Doctors hate the Govt. intervention too and they don't mind telling you just how bad they think Obamacare is.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> Doctors hate the Govt. intervention too and they don't mind telling you just how bad they think Obamacare is.


Not all of them.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvC2fxo-WE[/ame]


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

That is no surprise at all sure we needed reform BUT NOT WHAT ObamaUncare has turned into.
And besides that video was at the start of the obama administration and I BET they went out and HUNTED for such a doctor to say those things.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> That is no surprise at all sure we needed reform BUT NOT WHAT ObamaUncare has turned into.


Conservatives believed we needed health care reform? What reform did they propose in congress?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Paperwork? Doesn't the ACA require electronic records?


And knowing what you do about computers this fact doesn't scare you? 

Sure paper files have their own problems but I can say I have never in my life seen a filing cabinet fail and destroy all the files in it. I have never had a paper folder refuse to open resulting in not being to access vital info. I have never seen a paper file just disappear after it had been filed; misfiled and only found after a major search of the filing system yes but never totally lost. I have never heard of someone breaking into a major companies filing room and stealing the personal information of thousands of people. I have never heard of someone putting a lock on a filing cabinet and being about to force the company to pay a ransom to get it unlocked.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> And knowing what you do about computers this fact doesn't scare you?
> 
> Sure paper files have their own problems but I can say I have never in my life seen a filing cabinet fail and destroy all the files in it. I have never had a paper folder refuse to open resulting in not being to access vital info. I have never seen a paper file just disappear after it had been filed; misfiled and only found after a major search of the filing system yes but never totally lost. I have never heard of someone breaking into a major companies filing room and stealing the personal information of thousands of people. I have never heard of someone putting a lock on a filing cabinet and being about to force the company to pay a ransom to get it unlocked.


Actually, I believe in electronic medical records so much that I used to be on the development team for OpenEMR, an open source (free) electronic medical record and medical practice application. I have also hosted OpenEMR as a cloud application for medical practices, and I even offer it for free to nonprofit clinics.

As for not being able to access vital information, you (of course) have to learn how to use it and provide your employees with the proper server permissions. OpenEMR data is stored in a MySQL database that I backup daily and database files are protected with strong encryption, the same encryption used by banks and credit card companies.


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## Convoy (Dec 2, 2012)

maybe people hurt themselves? I had to go to the ER last week for stiches (no clinic near me) because my coworker accidently cut my hand. But also wanted to mention here in Canada people take their kids to ER if they have the sniffles. They got mad that I got in right away because of how bad I was bleeding but on the way out I overheard 3 mother saying "oh I'm just checking my kid is okay but just something probably going around in their classroom" - how the heck is that an Emergancy I don't know but with our healthcare system people go to the ER for stupid things like this that bog it down all the time.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Convoy said:


> maybe people hurt themselves? I had to go to the ER last week for stiches (no clinic near me) because my coworker accidently cut my hand. But also wanted to mention here in Canada people take their kids to ER if they have the sniffles. They got mad that I got in right away because of how bad I was bleeding but on the way out I overheard 3 mother saying "oh I'm just checking my kid is okay but just something probably going around in their classroom" - how the heck is that an Emergancy I don't know but with our healthcare system people go to the ER for stupid things like this that bog it down all the time.


We have a hospital here that deals with that really well. The adult ER at University Medical Center also has a Quick Care clinic on site. A nurse sees patients within minutes of signing in and decides if they go to the ER or the Quick Care clinic. They both use the same waiting room. That makes using the ER for a doctor's office a non-issue, and patients being treated for routine problems get to see a doctor at a reduced rate.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Paperwork? Doesn't the ACA require electronic records?


My wife made her yearly trip to her doctor to update her meds. He told her yearly trip used to involve 1 page of information. He said since Obamacare, it involves 9 pages. Government NEVER reduces paperwork. Just the opposite.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

poppy said:


> My wife made her yearly trip to her doctor to update her meds. He told her yearly trip used to involve 1 page of information. He said since Obamacare, it involves 9 pages. Government NEVER reduces paperwork. Just the opposite.


What was on those other 8 pages? He's not using electronic records?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Actually, I believe in electronic medical records so much that I used to be on the development team for OpenEMR, an open source (free) electronic medical record and medical practice application. I have also hosted OpenEMR as a cloud application for medical practices, and I even offer it for free to nonprofit clinics.
> 
> As for not being able to access vital information, you (of course) have to learn how to use it and provide your employees with the proper server permissions. OpenEMR data is stored in a MySQL database that I backup daily and database files are protected with strong encryption, the same encryption used by banks and credit card companies.


I can tell you that there is no encryption which is used by many people which can ever be considered secure. The weakest link is always the human. They have a habit of using simple passwords and if you require them to use super strong passwords they have this habit of writing them down as to not forget them. Or you can have disgruntled and/or greedy employees who are willing to breach the system. 

But the encryption can be broken (no matter what the powers that be tell you). The only way to encrypt something and keep it that way is to use a one time pad/cipher and then only if the only copies are always in the physical possession of two people, the sender and receiver.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> I can tell you that there is no encryption which is used by many people which can ever be considered secure. The weakest link is always the human. They have a habit of using simple passwords and if you require them to use super strong passwords they have this habit of writing them down as to not forget them. Or you can have disgruntled and/or greedy employees who are willing to breach the system.
> 
> But the encryption can be broken (no matter what the powers that be tell you). The only way to encrypt something and keep it that way is to use a one time pad/cipher and then only if the only copies are always in the physical possession of two people, the sender and receiver.


It's very strong.

http://www.inet2000.com/public/encryption.htm


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Nevada said:


> Not all of them.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvC2fxo-WE



This is nothing by an AMA photo op. The AMA does not represent the majority of American physicians. The AMA's own figure show it only represents 29% of America's doctors.
Haha! Remember the footage of the White House passing out white coats to the doctors prior to the photo-op?:gaptooth:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> This is nothing by an AMA photo op. The AMA does not represent the majority of American physicians. The AMA's own figure show it only represents 29% of America's doctors.
> Haha! Remember the footage of the White House passing out white coats to the doctors prior to the photo-op?:gaptooth:


I know that the ACA worked out pretty well for me. Where else was a 64 year old man going to find good health insurance for $58/month?


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

gapeach said:


> This is nothing by an AMA photo op.


LOL that's what came to my mind. 

DH has several docs/specialists and I have yet to hear any of them praise the new law. One, in fact, has actually cursed about it to us. Most others won't actually verbalize but facial expressions speak volumes. 

I've also noticed that docs seem more stressed these days.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Nevada said:


> I know that the ACA worked out pretty well for me. Where else was a 64 year old man going to find good health insurance for $58/month?


You didn't!

That's all you were required to pay. The rest of us picked up the rest of the tab. But you keep right on with the delusion it only costs $58!


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

nchobbyfarm said:


> You didn't!
> 
> That's all you were required to pay. The rest of us picked up the rest of the tab. But you keep right on with the delusion it only costs $58!



That's nothing. You should see the HMO I'll be on in August. Medicare will cost me about $105, but the plan is terrific!


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Honestly, Nevada, I don't think you have such a great deal! We have UHC through AARP and we have no co-pays for anything. 

We also have our life insurance though AARP and it has just changed to NY Life and we have even much better coverage with them now.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

gapeach said:


> Honestly, Nevada, I don't think you have such a great deal! We have UHC through AARP and we have no co-pays for anything.
> 
> We also have our life insurance though AARP and it has just changed to NY Life and we have even much better coverage with them now.


Aww, peach you know he's just throwing out some stink bait, hoping to get a reaction.:banana:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> Honestly, Nevada, I don't think you have such a great deal! We have UHC through AARP and we have no co-pays for anything.


I wasn't aware that AARP had a Medicare Advantage program. Got a link?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Aww, peach you know he's just throwing out some stink bait, hoping to get a reaction.:banana:


You can verify my figures here.

http://www.seniordimensions.com/documents/PlanOptions/2015_SD_SN_SB.pdf


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> You can verify my figures here.
> 
> http://www.seniordimensions.com/documents/PlanOptions/2015_SD_SN_SB.pdf


That's so sweet. Really proud for you :rock:.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I wasn't aware that AARP had a Medicare Advantage program. Got a link?


 Why do you think AARP was pushing for ACA?
Because they are getting a Kickback From United Health as they are a AGENT for getting people to sign up for UHC.
I had UHC for 2 years but it sure as heck not through aarp.
ANYBODY can get the SAME programs Through United Heath Services and Bypass such nut places as aarp.
So aarp gets you to sign up though them and you get Untied Health Care and all the programs they have INCLUDING Medicare Advantage....
Like my Mother told me you DON'T want to get Medicare coverage Through AARP~!!!! And they are democrats at that. ~~~
We have two UHC Call Centers close to me. One is only 20 miles from me. 100's work there. And 100's more at the other one 80 miles from me.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> Why do you think AARP was pushing for ACA?
> Because they are getting a Kickback From United Health as they are a AGENT for getting people to sign up for UHC.
> I had UHC for 2 years but it sure as heck not through aarp.
> ANYBODY can get the SAME programs Through United Heath Services and Bypass such nut places as aarp.
> ...


Last I looked AARP only offered Medicare supplemental insurance, not Medicare Advantage. But it's been awhile.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Last I looked AARP only offered Medicare supplemental insurance, not Medicare Advantage. But it's been awhile.


Well they are offering everything United Healthcare does. Don't forget AARP does not insure folks, UHC is the insurer.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> Well they are offering everything United Healthcare does. Don't forget AARP does not insure folks, UHC is the insurer.


Did you see an HMO with zero copays for everything?


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Did you see an HMO with zero copays for everything?


AARP MedicareComplete plans include the following features and benefits:
*Monthly plan premiums starting at $0*, in addition to your Medicare Part B premiums
A yearly out-of-pocket maximum to help limit your health care expenses
Predictable copays for doctor visits and many medical services
*Many preventive services for a $0 copay*
Worldwide emergency care
Annual routine eye exams
Many AARP MedicareComplete plans also include:
*$0 deductible*
Now go look for yourself....

http://www.aarphealthcare.com/medicare/medicare-advantage.html


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> AARP MedicareComplete plans include the following features and benefits:
> *Monthly plan premiums starting at $0*, in addition to your Medicare Part B premiums
> A yearly out-of-pocket maximum to help limit your health care expenses
> Predictable copays for doctor visits and many medical services
> ...


I suspect she was talking about regular Medicare + Medicare Supplemental. That's pricey though. It's worth it if you have ongoing health issues, but HMOs are better deals for healthy people.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Well what i have got through Humana is not HMO, it is PFFS. Private Fee For Services. I pay the same Co-Pays in network as out of network.
Being low income Humana pays have of my monthly premiums. And I get my prescriptions at have the co-pays as well. so all I pay in monthly cost is 47 bucks. Well that will be it after August when my 19 dollar a month time for not getting D goes away. LOL
And also being on Medicaid from WI my co-pays are paid for so no out of pocket cost for me.
And that PFFS from Human, is for the county in WI I live in. Not all counties have that PFFS choice offered.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> Well what i have got through Humana is not HMO, it is PFFS. Private Fee For Services. I pay the same Co-Pays in network as out of network.
> Being low income Humana pays have of my monthly premiums. And I get my prescriptions at have the co-pays as well. so all I pay in monthly cost is 47 bucks. Well that will be it after August when my 19 dollar a month time for not getting D goes away. LOL
> And also being on Medicaid from WI my co-pays are paid for so no out of pocket cost for me.
> And that PFFS from Human, is for the county in WI I live in. Not all counties have that PFFS choice offered.


I'm in a UHC HMO. There is no premium beyond keeping up Medicare Part B, and it includes prescription coverage. Since prescription coverage is at no extra charge it's actually less expensive than regular Medicare with Part D. My specific HMO plan is only available in the two southern counties of Nevada (Clark & Nye).


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

We have been AARP members for many years and have gotten many discounts from them when we were traveling.

We don't have the Medicare Advantage even though it is available.


We are very happy with the traditional coverage with zero co-payments and to have our choice of doctors and hospitals. It has worked very well for us.

We could get the same coverage without AARP. It is our preference to keep the membership. Most of our friends have the same coverage as we do and they are all very happy with it.
we pay $416 a month for the two of us.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> The ACA is not perfect, and not as good as Medicare, but it's helped a lot of people. I'm looking forward to August 1st when I go off Obamacare and start a Medicare Advantage HMO. I'll pay about $50 more monthly for Medicare but it's much better coverage. Still, I'm a lot better off with Obamacare than I was with no insurance at all.


How many actually has it helped? 6 mill? That is the figure who lost their ins. due to ObummerUNcare.
Other #s are added medicaid-coulda done this waaaaay cheaper. 
To answer you ? about "R" proposed plans, where were you when the booklet of viable plans was handed to the Idioitincharge, the one he did nothing with? That moment was on tv.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Oh, my. You're using that debunked screen shot of the makebelieve docs who came to the WH in support of the boondoggle? All dressed in their white lab coats, fooled some of the folks.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Hmmm...wonder why I get a statement from AARP concerning my advantage plan then?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Another reason I like our ins. is that UHC pays all of our Medicare deductibles. When we had Blue Cross, deductibles were killing us.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> we pay $416 a month for the two of us.


Ouch!

Does that include your Medicare Part B premium?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> It's very strong.
> 
> http://www.inet2000.com/public/encryption.htm


And that's supposed to invalidate everything I said? 

A one time pad system with only two copies is, in theory, unbreakable. Short explication of it is you generate a random set of numbers and letters, print them out on a pad then use that pad to encrypt your msg. As you use each set you tear it off and throw it away. Nothing is ever used twice so there is no patterns and only the sender and receiver has a copy of the pad. And that last thing is where the weakness in the system is. If one of those people fail to keep the pad secure it can be copied and the encryption is broken.

You can have an encryption system which uses 128, 512, 2,048 or 4,096 bit encryption but if some bozo writes the key down and sticks it to his monitor how secure is your system? If a disgruntled employee publishes your key to the world you are screwed. If some greedy employee sells your key you are really screwed because it will take some time before you know you are compromised. During that time you will be sitting back feeling all fat and happy that your data you are continuing to input is safe while someone is sucking it out as fast as you are putting it in.

I'll give you two words to think about: Eric Snowden.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I know that the ACA worked out pretty well for me. Where else was a 64 year old man going to find good health insurance for $58/month?


Where else is a 65 y.o. man going to forced to pay for ob-gyn coverage?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> Where else is a 65 y.o. man going to forced to pay for ob-gyn coverage?


People 65 and over aren't on Obamacare. They qualify for Medicare.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> People 65 and over aren't on Obamacare. They qualify for Medicare.


Finger dyslexia. 




Nevada said:


> Where else was a 64 year old man going to find good health insurance for $58/month?


So, where else is a *64* y.o. man forced to pay for og-gyn coverage?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> So, where else is a *64* y.o. man forced to pay for og-gyn coverage?


We all pay the same. The idea is that being a woman shouldn't be a preexisting condition. It's a good thing. The only factors that impact plan cost are location, age and smoking.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Nevada said:


> Ouch!
> 
> Does that include your Medicare Part B premium?


It does not include the Medicare Part B premium but pays the deductible. My husband has been a very sick man and I truly believe if we had not had the medical care that we have had where he could go to the best hospital and the best doctors in the area, he would not be alive today. He will be 81 this month and I and none of my family would have believed 2 yrs ago at this time that he would be still alive today and stable too. If we had to go out of the area to Charleston,Atlanta,Jacksonville, Augusta, anywhere there is a medical university, we would be covered. 
We are not able to go out anymore traveling out of town or even to go out to eat because he is not able to walk anymore but we feel very good about our medical care and that at this stage of life is so important rather than the cost. It may not be the cheapest but is the best for us and well worth the money. If something happens to him I would not dream of changing for a few dollars less. I would be paying half what we pay now anyway.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

It is still way to much for sr.s to pay-per mo- after paying into it all your working lives.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> My husband has been a very sick man and I truly believe if we had not had the medical care that we have had where he could go to the best hospital and the best doctors in the area, he would not be alive today.


I know your husband hasn't been well, and you have the right insurance for the circumstances. When you signup for an HMO you turn the management of your healthcare over to the HMO. That allows the HMO to make a lot of critical healthcare decisions. That's fine if you're healthy, but when you start getting expensive they may not make decisions that are in your best interest.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Well, we never expected General Motors to go bankrupt. We were set with coverage under them for the rest of our lives but we like millions of others were cut off even without our life ins. I still feel very fortunate though that we were able to do the things we did and as long as we are still here, it is a good day every day. We had good ins. while our kids were growing up and even covered them as long as they were in college. Lots of people are far worse off than we are.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> Well, we never expected General Motors to go bankrupt. We were set with coverage under them for the rest of our lives but we like millions of others were cut off even without our life ins. I still feel very fortunate though that we were able to do the things we did and as long as we are still here, it is a good day every day. We had good ins. while our kids were growing up and even covered them as long as they were in college. Lots of people are far worse off than we are.


I'm healthy so I'm going with an HMO. With no deductible and low copays it's affordable without supplemental. In fact Medicare supplemental insurance isn't available to Medicare Advantage HMO subscribers. But I think I'll be fine.

The company I worked for is gone now also, but it was absorbed by Chevron. They offer insurance to retirees but it's not as good as what I can get through Medicare here in Nevada. I lot of my retired coworkers living in California get Chevron insurance though.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Thank God, I have been healthy for the most part. I have outlived the average of my parents by about 14 years. My father died of a heart attack at 51 and my mother of cancer at 71. I have been able to take care of my husband and our kids are very good to us too. We are fortunate.

If you are in good health at 65, I can understand why you would go under an HMO in Las Vegas.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> We all pay the same. The idea is that being a woman shouldn't be a preexisting condition. It's a good thing. The only factors that impact plan cost are location, age and smoking.


Several problems with this. First off we have to say what is insurance and what is it for? Well insurance is something you buy to cover UNEXPECTED expenses. It is not meant to pay for routine care nor to cover elected actions. You don't expect your auto insurance to cover getting your oil changed, to replace your alternator or to have your tires rotated do you? You don't expect your home insurance to pay to have your house painted or your yearly termite inspection and treatment, do you? Then why do you expect your health insurance to cover your yearly physical and such?

Now do would you expect to be able to go out and buy home insurance on a home which a tree has already fallen through the roof and expect you new insurance company to pay to fix it? If you have wrecked your car and have it mostly repaired then buy insurance would you expect the company to pay to finish the repair? If not why do you expect a health insurance company to cover a problem you already have?

What right do YOU have to demand I pay more so that YOU can be covered? If you want an insurance plan that covers ob-gyn even though you are a guy then go right ahead. But don't force me at the point of a gun to pay for it because YOU think its the right thing to do.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> First off we have to say what is insurance and what is it for? Well insurance is something you buy to cover UNEXPECTED expenses. It is not meant to pay for routine care nor to cover elected actions.


I'm not aware of a requirement that insured benefits have to be for only unexpected expenses. People seemed to like HMO plans in the early 1970s after the HMO Act, and then traditional insurance plans started covering routine expenses. They did it because that's what customers wanted.

This isn't want I want. It's just the way it is today.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I'm not aware of a requirement that insured benefits have to be for only unexpected expenses. People seemed to like HMO plans in the early 1970s after the HMO Act, and then traditional insurance plans started covering routine expenses. They did it because that's what customers wanted.
> 
> This isn't want I want. It's just the way it is today.


Actually isn't it just the way the government has forced upon us today? Can you legally buy a plan which meets the government requirements which doesn't do all of that? We no longer have free choice nor insurance. We have government mandated income distribution used to pay for health care to buy votes for the people in power. 

You are CLEARLY not paying for your own health insurance. The numbers alone say that someone at your age is going to cost much more than you'll pay in. TANSTAAFL Which means that to pay for you, based on averages, the insurance company must charge someone who is statistically unlikely to need care more to cover you. Every time you pay your insurance payment you are, in effect, stealing money from someone. But hey, as long as you get yours, right.

It would be like the government forcing the insurance companies to charge a young single male driving a brand new Corvette the same rate as an older married female driving a 10 y.o. minivan. That would be a great deal for the Corvette owner but the minivan driver would be getting the shaft.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> Actually isn't it just the way the government has forced upon us today? Can you legally buy a plan which meets the government requirements which doesn't do all of that?


This isn't new from the ACA. Insurance without prescription and office visit benefits has been the norm for decades, and that was without any requirement by the government. It's pretty obvious that Americans wanted insurance that covered routine care long before the ACA.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> This isn't new from the ACA. Insurance without prescription and office visit benefits has been the norm for decades, and that was without any requirement by the government. It's pretty obvious that Americans wanted insurance that covered routine care long before the ACA.


That's fine as long as they were willing to pay for it themselves. You can now get insurance that will pay to fix your home appliances if you wish. 

There are people who used to be able to buy insurance which just covered things that insurance is supposed to cover (accidents, catastrophic illnesses and the like) but they can no longer to that.

Again I ask where does the power to force you to buy insurance which will cover things you will never use come from? Neither you nor I will ever need ob-gyn coverage yet we are both FORCED to pay for it. Why? Two simple words: Government Control! 

It is a major problem when you are FORCED at the point of a gun to buy something you don't want and can't use. Think about it. If the government can force you to buy insurance why can't it force you to buy a new car? Couldn't you claim that its helping the "general welfare" because new cars are safer than old cars plus if everyone buys a new car more cars would have to be made, transported and sold which would help the economy.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> It is a major problem when you are FORCED at the point of a gun to buy something you don't want and can't use.


Who has no use for a doctor or prescription medicine?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Who has no use for a doctor or prescription medicine?


Healthy people.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Healthy people.


That's actually not true. Perfectly healthy people become involved in accidents every day, and perfectly healthy people need regular wellness care.

I happen to have no ongoing healthcare issues, but someone has to watch my blood pressure and cholesterol so I stay that way. I see the doctor and have little to show for it except advice that I should lose weight and get a colonoscopy, but there is value is healthy people seeing a doctor and getting labs regularly.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I think men and women should have different policies. A man would never need to go see a gynecologist. He should get a break in the rate.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> I think men and women should have different policies. A man would never need to go see a gynecologist. He should get a break in the rate.


Someone without cancer would never need cancer treatments, but we all pay the same. Like being female isn't a preexisting condition, it's a good thing. That assures that everyone can afford insurance, regardless of health issues.

A strange quirk of our healthcare system was that the people who needed coverage the most either couldn't get it or couldn't afford it. The ACA fixed that.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Who has no use for a doctor or prescription medicine?


Who said that? The discussion was something not needed. Ya know, ob/gyn care & maternity bennies & birth control for 62 y/o males.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> Who said that? The discussion was something not needed. Ya know, ob/gyn care & maternity bennies & birth control for 62 y/o males.


The idea is to eliminate preexisting conditions, so basically everyone pays the same. It's a good thing.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> The idea is to eliminate preexisting conditions, so basically everyone pays the same. It's a good thing.


A good thing for a few perhaps, but not a good thing for our nation at large.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> A good thing for a few perhaps, but not a good thing for our nation at large.


How can getting affordable coverage to the people who need it most not be a good thing for our country?


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Nevada said:


> OpenEMR data is stored in a MySQL database that I backup daily and database files are protected with strong encryption, the same encryption used by banks and credit card companies.


Awesome, cause we all know how super secure bank and credit card data is.

:umno:

My hubby is in IT. Just changed over from healthcare assignment to banking assignment. Electronic records are not safer than paper. Sorry.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Men and women are different unless you become another Bruce Jenner.

The ACA has not fixed anything.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

*Supreme Court*

*ObamaCare's future: 11 ways the health care law could be dismantled in 2015*

by Greg Jarrett

Excerpt:

The president sold his health care plan on the promise that it would help Americans who had no insurance, but _all others would remain_ _unaffected_. It proved to be an illusion.

Millions of Americans lost their insurance, their doctors, and their hospitals. Average premiums did not go down by $2,500, as promised. They went up appreciably, rendering the term, _&#8220;__Affordable_Care Act,&#8221; an oxymoron.
The tax was cleverly disguised as a penalty because, as Jonathan Gruber the so-called architect of the ACA confessed recently, Americans are stupid. And the quintessential cover-up obscured the identity of those who would pay for it:young, healthy individuals subsidizing older, sick people. It was a scheme of deception designed to fool Americans. An artifice. In a court of law, it would be called fraud.
Either the president _knew_ his promises were untrue and deliberately set out to deceive Americans or he inexplicably believed it was true but did not bother to read or understand the bill he signed into law. Which means he was both naÃ¯ve and incompetent, but slightly better than malicious. No _mea culpa_ will ever undo the damage.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014...lth-care-law-could-be-dismantled-in-2015.html


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> How can getting affordable coverage to the people who need it most not be a good thing for our country?


That hasn't happened & prolly won't.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

gapeach said:


> *Supreme Court*
> 
> *ObamaCare's future: 11 ways the health care law could be dismantled in 2015*
> 
> ...


Post of the decade award.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Who has no use for a doctor or prescription medicine?


I really don't have a use for an OB doc. Do you? Seen your gynecologist for your yearly check up yet? Filled your script for the meds to control that heavy bleeding during your menstrual cycle?

I think if you check you are being forced to pay for a insurance plan which covers all of that.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> How can getting affordable coverage to the people who need it most not be a good thing for our country?


There's an old saying: The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. 

It'd be a good thing for everyone to have a home. Don't you agree? I guess you should be forced to pay to build one for a homeless guy? I'd think it be a good thing for every stray dog to have a home as well. Maybe the government should force everyone to have at least one rescue dog in their home. Sound like a plan you could support?

On the other side some people think it would be a good thing for different races to have different schools. You for that? Or should the government only force people to do things YOU think are good?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> How can getting affordable coverage to the people who need it most not be a good thing for our country?


I know several folks who dont have a car.... if I buy all of them a new car and go bankrupt in the process how is that a good thing? The ACA has NOT provided affordable coverage to everyone that needs it and most likely never will and it has caused many to no longer be able to afford coverage that had it prior to the ACA enactment. Whats worse is that it violates every principle of freedom our Constitution was designed to protect.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

The United States is too large and too diverse to effectively enforce a encompassing Govt run healthcare program. 
Hillarycare and Obamacare are 2 good examples of failure.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

gapeach said:


> The United States is too large and too diverse to effectively enforce a encompassing Govt run healthcare program.
> Hillarycare and Obamacare are 2 good examples of failure.


You might want to include the VA in your examples of dismal failures with gov run "health care".


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gibbsgirl said:


> My hubby is in IT. Just changed over from healthcare assignment to banking assignment. Electronic records are not safer than paper. Sorry.


In the first place, most OpenEMR installations don't operate from a web host. I do it because it's convenient for the client, since all the medical office has to do is maintain Internet capable workstations. Any computer with a web browser and an Internet connection can access the application. Of course the application is password protected and accessed with secure socket layer (https). But as I said, most are installed on a private server in the medical office and inaccessible from the Internet.

But MySQL is secure. A hacker could get in a server and do a lot of harm, but even if he downloaded the database files he couldn't view the data without passwords. Database files are protected with 128-bit strong encryption.

By the way, I'm an IT professional also. There are a handful of us here at HT.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted by Nevada View Post
> How can *getting affordable coverage to the people* who need it most not be a good thing for our country?


When will they be doing that?
I just see rates going up and folks forced to buy things they don't need nor want


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> You might want to include the VA in your examples of dismal failures with gov run "health care".


The VA is a different animal from Obamacare & Medicare. VA is government provided healthcare, where Obamacare & Medicare are government administrated healthcare insurance. Unlike Obamacare and Medicare the VA hires its own doctors and operates its own medical facilities.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> When will they be doing that?
> I just see rates going up and folks forced to buy things they don't need nor want


That's what the 2015 data is showing.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/pub...inflation-nationwide-for-marketplace-premiums

The national average is the same as 2014, although some states saw increases while others saw decreases. My state is about the same with a 4% overall increase (1% increase in silver plans).

Virginia saw 2015 premiums at around half what they were in 2014, so they really made out, while Alaska saw about a 30% increase. Of course those are the extremes. Most states saw only modest changes from 2014 to 2015.

But when you consider that medical costs have been increasing at about 8% per year, a zero average change from 2014 to 2015 is pretty good.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> That's what the 2015 data is showing.
> 
> http://www.commonwealthfund.org/pub...inflation-nationwide-for-marketplace-premiums
> 
> The national average is the same as 2014,


An average change between ocare14 and ocare15 would not be expected to be very great..... try comparing todays average premiums with those of 08..... you know.... before Ocare existed.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> An average change between ocare14 and ocare15 would not be expected to be very great..... try comparing todays average premiums with those of 08..... you know.... before Ocare existed.


As I said, we always expect premiums to rise because medical technology is expanding. But we haven't seen the exploding premiums predicted by conservatives.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> As I said, we always expect premiums to rise because medical technology is expanding. But we haven't seen the exploding premiums predicted by conservatives.


I cant speak for others but my premiums more than DOUBLED within 30 days of the passage of Ocare. Of course your premiums remained the same.... you had no insurance. I have several friends who can no longer afford the insurance they enjoyed prior to Ocare. I am quite sure there are millions of others in the same boat nationwide.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I cant speak for others but my premiums more than DOUBLED within 30 days of the passage of Ocare. Of course your premiums remained the same.... you had no insurance. I have several friends who can no longer afford the insurance they enjoyed prior to Ocare. I am quite sure there are millions of others in the same boat nationwide.


 Boy isn't that the truth
And I have had the largest increase since I have been with Humana's Advantage program. And I have been with Humana for 5 years now.
My friends rate with Human's Advantage program went up 47% this year so I wish SOME would LOOK and READ and RESEARCH what is happening throughout this country and not just in their OWN back Yard.~!!!!!!! And the4se that just rely on th lies coming out from the government on how well things are going well enough said about that I don't want to get banned. LOL


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> Boy isn't that the truth
> And I have had the largest increase since I have been with Humana's Advantage program. And I have been with Humana for 5 years now.
> My friends rate with Human's Advantage program went up 47% this year so I wish SOME would LOOK and READ and RESEARCH what is happening throughout this country and not just in their OWN back Yard.~!!!!!!! And the4se that just rely on th lies coming out from the government on how well things are going well enough said about that I don't want to get banned. LOL


But you have Medicare Advantage, not Obamacare.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I cant speak for others but my premiums more than DOUBLED within 30 days of the passage of Ocare. Of course your premiums remained the same.... you had no insurance. I have several friends who can no longer afford the insurance they enjoyed prior to Ocare. I am quite sure there are millions of others in the same boat nationwide.


I would like to learn more about that. What insurance did you have before, and what did you go to?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> But you have Medicare Advantage, not Obamacare.


Isn't Medicare advantage in part private insurance approved by Medicare?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

My oldest son went under his wife 's state benefits in SC because his ins. went to crap., she is a teacher and her policy covers him and their daughter and her. It is way,..... better than his was.
My daughter, who used to have wonderful ins. through the hospital, hers went to crap when she was outsourced is under her husband's now and all of their family is covered under Blue Cross. His ins. used to be good but they are just killed now by co-payments.
My other son and his wife are now covered under a good ins. because of their status at the University where they work. Nothing to do with Obamacare.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Isn't Medicare advantage in part private insurance approved by Medicare?


Yes, but not Obamacare.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Isn't ocare private insurance?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Isn't ocare private insurance?


Yes, the congress dropped the public option because they claimed unfair competition, so all Obamacare policies are private. But not all private insurance is Obamacare. You can buy private policies that aren't offered through Obamacare exchanges, and you can also get private Medicare Advantage instead of Medicare, but neither of those are Obamacare.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Yes, the congress dropped the public option because they claimed unfair competition, so all Obamacare policies are private. But not all private insurance is Obamacare. You can buy private policies that aren't offered through Obamacare exchanges, and you can also get private Medicare Advantage instead of Medicare, but neither of those are Obamacare.


So If I purchase my own insurance that is not part of ocare... will I still owe a fine? or tax?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

But all are private insurance companies, seems a bit fishy to me. Forced by penalties to buy certain insurance, major companies that make major contributions to politicians.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Nevada said:


> By the way, I'm an IT professional also. There are a handful of us here at HT.


Yes, your post before made your IT work obvious. I'm not saying you personally are incompetent or lack an understanding or ability in your field.

My point is that on a large rolled out scale, personal information (such as healthcare records) are simply impossible to secure. 

#1 It's not possible to always stay ahead of hackers.

#2 I've seen first hand how insecure medical office are, at our family doctor's office. And, my husband spent four years working for a huge regional hospital system, whose administration wasn't smart enough to figure out that work computers should be locked down from absolutely anything that isn't work related. My husband's crew was constantly battling to manage systems that had stuff on them because virtually every employee had access to anything on-line through any number of computers in the hospitals. The company my husband worked for was making big bucks off the dumb administrations decisions not to lock down those networks. Lots and lots of stuff constantly needing replacing because of stupid holes in the hospitals network security. Drove his crew nuts. But, the big boys at the hospital and the computer company he worked for were calling all the big picture shots.

#3 My husband's identity has been stolen 3 times over the years. And, in the last 12 months we've received notices from our bank that our account info was part of a massive data breach requiring new cards/account numbers, and I've gotten letters from current and old health insurers on 4 of the 7 of us (even my kid's info) being part of a huge data breach.

We don't even have credit cards anymore because data is becoming so insecure. It's simply not worth the risk. Large corporations are bailed out by the government if something happens to them and they can't get out from under it. But, all of us individuals have to fight through it ourselves if our info is stolen. So, I just don't feel it's in me and mine's personal best interest to have no ability anymore to stop having our "electronic identities" in the system. But, the way things are going there is less and less I can do about it. Those choices are being taken away from me. That's tyranny.

Even the Sony hacks recently showed that HIPAA violations are rampant with the personal health records being discussed in them. It was bad enough that those details were being chatted about in-house with Sony and the insurance companies. But, then they get hacked and the data dump releases it to absolutely anyone.

There are just some things that I don't believe should be shared with anyone other those immediately involved like doctor / patient discussions and treatments, or teacher / student / parent discussions and records. But, the way of the "electronics records" movement is destroying that. Banking, healthcare, employment history, military data, school records. None of us individually can stop it as far as I can see. The system will fail only when it causes itself too.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> So If I purchase my own insurance that is not part of ocare... will I still owe a fine? or tax?


You are not required to purchase insurance through the exchange to be compliant with the mandate, but you can only be eligible for a subsidy of you purchase through the exchange. If your income is high enough that you won't be getting a subsidy then it doesn't matter.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gibbsgirl said:


> HIPAA violations are rampant with the personal health records


Understand this; HIPAA doesn't exist to keep your medical records private, it exists to keep medical whistle blowers from going public.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

I don't trust hardly any "statistics". But, I do trust what's happening to me and those around me. I can tell you that prices for premiums have continued to go up and up and up SIGNIFICANTLY for several years for us. Also, the coverage has gone down. So, our premiums and our out-of-pocket expenses have grown steadily, and we've had 4 different insurances in the last 7 years.

In our personal life we've heard nearly all of our friends say the same thing except for some who had welfare insurance covering their costs. So, for me, looking at our numbers year after year and comparing notes with those I know in real life is more trustworthy than numbers on the news or published by the government.

The financial hit against all of us has been significant. And, if anyone in my personal life had any tips for how to "get a better deal" we'd all be sharing that info freely with one another.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gibbsgirl said:


> But, the way of the "electronics records" movement is destroying that.


Not having electronic records is absurd in this day & age. If you show up in the ER today they have no idea of who you are or what your medical history might be. With a robust electronic records system they'll have your entire medical history in front of them in seconds. That could save your life.

I believe the day will come when you'll tell your grandchildren that hospital ERs had no idea who your were, and your grandkids will be amazed that you lived during an era that backward.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Not having electronic records is absurd in this day & age. If you show up in the ER today they have no idea of who you are or what your medical history might be. With a robust electronic records system they'll have your entire medical history in front of them in seconds. That could save your life.
> 
> I believe the day will come when you'll tell your grandchildren that hospital ERs had no idea who your were, and your grandkids will be amazed that you lived during an era that backward.


Hope they handle it better than the VA.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gibbsgirl said:


> I can tell you that prices for premiums have continued to go up and up and up SIGNIFICANTLY for several years for us. Also, the coverage has gone down. So, our premiums and our out-of-pocket expenses have grown steadily, and we've had 4 different insurances in the last 7 years.


I only started recent medical coverage at the beginning of 2014. My 2015 premium was within $5 of my 2014 premium.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Hope they handle it better than the VA.


I can't say. At this point they're just trying to get everyone on board with compliant EMR applications in the clinics. A centralized database is still in the future.

But I don't think the root of VA system problems is in electronic medical records.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Not having electronic records is absurd in this day & age. If you show up in the ER today they have no idea of who you are or what your medical history might be. With a robust electronic records system they'll have your entire medical history in front of them in seconds. That could save your life.
> 
> I believe the day will come when you'll tell your grandchildren that hospital ERs had no idea who your were, and your grandkids will be amazed that you lived during an era that backward.


Civilization has managed to thrive quite well without computers in many different cultures. And, hospital care was quite sufficient for a longer period of history than it has been during the short period when electronic records were part of it and causing all this data breaching fall-out.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Nevada said:


> But you have Medicare Advantage, not Obamacare.


But Mine has gone UP as well as MY friends BECAUSE OF ObamaUncare Period. We had this talk a while back jThey called and was TOLD it was RAISED as a DIRECT Result of this dumb healthcare stuff~!!!!!!


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> But Mine has gone UP as well as MY friends BECAUSE OF ObamaUncare Period. We had this talk a while back jThey called and was TOLD it was RAISED as a DIRECT Result of this dumb healthcare stuff~!!!!!!


Your insurance company called you to let you know it was Obamacare's fault?


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> The VA is a different animal from Obamacare & Medicare. VA is government provided healthcare, where Obamacare & Medicare are government administrated healthcare insurance. Unlike Obamacare and Medicare the VA hires its own doctors and operates its own medical facilities.


Kinda like single payer would be...


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

What was that huge ins co who was hacked & all records compromised, just a few mo.s ago? Some part of Blue Cross? Millions of folks' data stolen.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> Kinda like single payer would be...


Single payer can be like the VA, but it doesn't have to be. The Canadian system is single payer and still uses private medical providers. If single payer comes to the USA I suspect that it will be more like the Canadian system than the British system.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> What was that huge ins co who was hacked & all records compromised, just a few mo.s ago? Some part of Blue Cross? Millions of folks' data stolen.


The world is never going to give up using computers and networking for fear of hacking. You can't stand in the way of that kind of progress.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I am all for progress! But put more into to protecting valuable info. Be proactive not reactive.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> I am all for progress! But put more into to protecting valuable info. Be proactive not reactive.


That's what I do every day.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> That what I do every day.


Do you work for any of the major security firms?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Do you work for any of the major security firms?


I don't work for anyone. I operate my own servers for my own purposes.

But I'm proactive in that I'm constantly learning about new threats and strategies to counter those threats. I don't wait for problems to reach my servers before applying new strategies.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

It seems that many major corporations and some parts of gov don't take care of staying on top of the problems. I feel it could be the costs or just not taking it seriously.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> It seems that many major corporations and some parts of gov don't take care of staying on top of the problems. I feel it could be the costs or just not taking it seriously.


I suspect much of the problem is that corporations and government offices often rely on security contractors to take care of it, but their security people aren't protecting them as comprehensively as they think they are.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

So, the facts are, insurance premiums have mostly gone up (with rare exceptions)and the number of emergency room visits have gone up.

Both of those problems were supposed to be solved by ACA. Yet, rather than be angry that conditions have actually worsened, there are those who will still defend the law.

:stars:


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Yes, the congress dropped the public option because they claimed unfair competition, so all Obamacare policies are private. But not all private insurance is Obamacare. You can buy private policies that aren't offered through Obamacare exchanges, and you can also get private Medicare Advantage instead of Medicare, but neither of those are Obamacare.


That's the way it works in a fascist system. The government doesn't own the company it only controls them through laws and regs.

BTW, have you checked to see if your current plan covers og-gyn care?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> So If I purchase my own insurance that is not part of ocare... will I still owe a fine? or tax?


If you COULD buy such a plan then you would. But because the government now has total control of the health insurance industry no company offers such a plan.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Txsteader said:


> the number of emergency room visits have gone up.


Maybe not.

_Generally, I think the idea that Obamacare increases emergency room visits will turn out to be true. The best research we have shows that when people gain health insurance coverage, they use more medical care â emergency care included. But we don't have the data to prove it quite yet, and it's certainly not in the study these articles cite._
http://www.vox.com/2015/5/4/8547375/obamacare-emergency-room

Let's wait for the facts.


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Your insurance company called you to let you know it was Obamacare's fault?


My insurance company didn't but the company which provides the coverage set out a letter stating that because of the mandated coverage their current plans would no longer be offered. Then went on to let us know that the cost of the new GOVERNMENT REQUIRED plans would be significantly more than the old plans. IIRC, significantly turned to be right around double for a 'family' plan. It was even more for most because the company offered three plans (in order of cost) were; solo (worker only), spouse (worker and spouse only) and family (worker, spouse and kids). To meet the new requirements the spouse plan was dropped therefore those on it got hit with a double whammy of being forced into the family plan and having the new family plan costing much, much more than the old one.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Maybe not.
> 
> _Generally, I think the idea that Obamacare increases emergency room visits will turn out to be true. The best research we have shows that when people gain health insurance coverage, they use more medical care â emergency care included. But we don't have the data to prove it quite yet, and it's certainly not in the study these articles cite._
> http://www.vox.com/2015/5/4/8547375/obamacare-emergency-room
> ...


Okay, that article really didn't say much. :yawn:


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> Okay, that article really didn't say much. :yawn:


The point is that Obamacare removed financial barriers to both routine care AND emergency care. While the theory was that Obamacare subscribers would stop using the ER for routine care, people can also better afford ER visits for small emergencies. It might be true that people stopped using the ER for routine care, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there will be fewer ER visits.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> The point is that Obamacare removed financial barriers to both routine care AND emergency care. While the theory was that Obamacare subscribers would stop using the ER for routine care, people can also better afford ER visits for small emergencies. It might be true that people stopped using the ER for routine care, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there will be fewer ER visits.


Oh, I get it, it's the if you like your insurance you can keep it scenario.


----------



## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

watcher said:


> My insurance company didn't but the company which provides the coverage set out a letter stating that because of the mandated coverage their current plans would no longer be offered. Then went on to let us know that the cost of the new GOVERNMENT REQUIRED plans would be significantly more than the old plans. IIRC, significantly turned to be right around double for a 'family' plan. It was even more for most because the company offered three plans (in order of cost) were; solo (worker only), spouse (worker and spouse only) and family (worker, spouse and kids). To meet the new requirements the spouse plan was dropped therefore those on it got hit with a double whammy of being forced into the family plan and having the new family plan costing much, much more than the old one.


We got the same type letter some years back. Although ours offered a "grandfathered" option. But, the rates for even keeping that jumped around 40% for the next year. Result was we had to drop our plan that was an HSA that we loved and had been very happy with and husband had to change jobs to get us a different policy.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> BTW, have you checked to see if your current plan covers og-gyn care?


It doesn't specifically say.

https://www.healthplanofnevada.com/documents/Exchange/%28Eff%201-1-2014%29%20Individual%20HPN%20Silver%203%2094%20Ind_HMO_S3_94_XC%282014%29.pdf

But I assume it's covered under Specialist Services on the first page at $70/visit.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gibbsgirl said:


> We got the same type letter some years back. Although ours offered a "grandfathered" option. But, the rates for even keeping that jumped around 40% for the next year. Result was we had to drop our plan that was an HSA that we loved and had been very happy with and husband had to change jobs to get us a different policy.


I didn't get a letter like that because I was totally uninsured for a very long time. But nobody around here cares about that.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Maybe not.
> 
> _Generally, I think the idea that Obamacare increases emergency room visits will turn out to be true. The best research we have shows that when people gain health insurance coverage, they use more medical care &#8212; emergency care included. But we don't have the data to prove it quite yet, and it's certainly not in the study these articles cite._
> http://www.vox.com/2015/5/4/8547375/obamacare-emergency-room
> ...


Well, I thought that's what this thread was about. Did you not read post #1? And that comes from the Kaiser foundation, no less; one of Obamacare's earliest cheerleaders.....before it became law.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I don't work for anyone. I operate my own servers for my own purposes.
> 
> But I'm proactive in that I'm constantly learning about new threats and strategies to counter those threats. I don't wait for problems to reach my servers before applying new strategies.


If you deleted everything off your private server, could the FBI still get your emails?


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

gibbsgirl said:


> We got the same type letter some years back. Although ours offered a "grandfathered" option. But, the rates for even keeping that jumped around 40% for the next year. Result was we had to drop our plan that was an HSA that we loved and had been very happy with and husband had to change jobs to get us a different policy.


Obviously, you're just a liar. Harry Reid said so. He said there were no cases like this & those nearly 6 mil who lost their ins were all lying, my DH included.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I didn't get a letter like that because I was totally uninsured for a very long time. But nobody around here cares about that.


Didja die? Didja get cancer & not have a doc? Seems you weren't hurt a bit.
My DH was w/o in. for yrs. 
But did you care?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Nevada said:


> How can getting affordable coverage to the people who need it most not be a good
> 
> Well, those who have coverage need to save 5,000 grand to use it ....plus 20 % and cash for scripts.
> 
> Other wise the simply get the joy of paying the premiums for others to have care.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> It doesn't specifically say.
> 
> 
> But I assume it's covered under Specialist Services on the first page at $70/visit.


Making assumptions about what is covered under insurance can be a very expensive mistake. But if your assumption is correct it means you are paying for coverage you will never need and, I think, if you check the obamacare regs all insurance of the federally controlled health insurance plans (which is now all of them) are specifically require to cover things such as yearly gynecological checks and, I do believe, mammograms (seeing as how haven't felt the need for one I don't know how often you can get a free one of those). 

As I have pointed out before I don't think like most people. Tends to make the wife's life a bit interesting to say the least. And this has gotten me thinking. . .

This raises an interesting question. There are cases of males having breast cancer therefore is it discriminatory for the government to force insurance companies to pay for mammos for females but not for males? Its not like the gyno or prostate exam where the other gender's anatomy prevents such things.

Which brings up another interesting question. I wonder what would happen if we could get enough people to demand each and every "free" thing offered in one year. Ever stop to think what would happen if everyone in the US who now has a ticket for one free complete physical a year got it. Blood work, stress test, mammos and pap smears for the ladies, PSA tests for the gents and so on. Wonder how much that would that cost? How about a little number crunching with googled numbers.

Average cost of a compete physical. $2,000 to $6,000 so lets split it and say $3,000

Number of adults in the US. In 2013 it the US Census says is 242,542,967. Lets call it 245,000,000 to allow for growth and to make the math a little easier.

So 240,000,000 people each needing $3,000 worth of medical care give us. . .

$735,000,000,000

Seven hundred and thirty five BILLION dollars would be needed just to "give" everyone which has the "right" to a "free" physical. I guess to the government that's nothing. After all they spend that, on average, every minute or so. ($7,264,020 a minute for the year 2011 according to google search)

But to the insurance companies who would be forced by the federal government it would be a fair chuck of change. And when added to all the other cost they have the odds it would bankrupt each and every one of them. And that would leave doctors and hospitals holding a very large bag which would probably bankrupt them as well. Hum. . .seeing as how the left seems to hate privately ran medical care that might be something they'd like.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Nevada said:


> The point is that Obamacare removed financial barriers to both routine care AND emergency care. While the theory was that Obamacare subscribers would stop using the ER for routine care, people can also better afford ER visits for small emergencies. It might be true that people stopped using the ER for routine care, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there will be fewer ER visits.




Fyi.....I am poor....routine care I can afford.
Emergency care......mandated prior to Obama..

Sorry this is really raiding the wallets of some for others.
It's wrong. I accept you are getting and you are not ashamed but proud.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I didn't get a letter like that because I was totally uninsured for a very long time. But nobody around here cares about that.


So your insurance cost increased by a percentage so large it can not even be calculated. You were paying zero and now you are paying something.

Yeah, I'm in one of those moods.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I didn't get a letter like that because I was totally uninsured for a very long time. But nobody around here cares about that.


So, I support that you as a grown up made a choice within you legal right.
I care greatly that you got to enjoy that freedom of pro choice...those days of such rights to freedom seem further away to day.

So, what made you choose not to have insurance then. 
No medical need
You had funds to cover medical needs


Why...


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Nevada said:


> I didn't get a letter like that because I was totally uninsured for a very long time. But nobody around here cares about that.


Here's the thing about that. And, I don't mean to seem overly critical of you personally. I know this has been a rather blunt conversation, so here's my thoughts on this comment you've made.

Frankly, I don't care. See, I learned along time ago that success and/or survival in this life is all about personal responsibility. For the most part we've always had insurance. The few times we didn't, we had to figure it out and pay out of pocket for what was needed. But, even in all the years we've had insurance there still has been many times that we have costs that are not covered by insurance at all. We've had to figure it out. Even with insurance our annual premium and out of pocket costs are consistently between $5,000 and $10,000 a year. And, that's a SIGNIFICANT part of our annual one-income budget.

Have we had to go without in many other areas? You bet. But, it's not other people's nor the government's responsibility to figure out my family's needs being met.

We've had some very hard times, harder than some, not as hard as others. We don't make a lot and our lifestyle is not typical. Although, I believe many people's lifestyle these days would be tough to wedge into a "typical" category.

I hate so many things about Obamacare. Most of all I resent the fact that the government is forcing people to buy a product. Period. If the government wanted to help, they could have passed legislation to open up the insurance market to as many carriers as possible. If the government wanted to help, they could have passed legislation that required healthcare providers to release cost information to consumers so people could have a better chance of making an informed decision. No one expects to go to purchase other things in life and just pick out the product or service with near total ignorance of the cost of said service or item.

If you chose to go without insurance. It likely wasn't a priority for you. There are some people for whom at times, it absolutely isn't possible. But, by and large, that is not the case. It simply wasn't a big enough priority.

I take issue with a large number of things our government at many levels has evolved into doing to the population. The obamacare legislation is just one of many. And, I think the choices that many people make are foolish. But, me and mine to plenty of foolhardy things to. Life is live and learn. But, regardless of the circumstances that led you personally to be without insurance prior to obamacare, I believe it's your life and this is one area where you and I both need to be free to make our own decisions and prioritize what we're doing without popular opinion and/or legislation having any input on either one of us.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I didn't get a letter like that because I was totally uninsured for a very long time. But nobody around here cares about that.


If you didnt care enough to insure yourself.... why should anyone else?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> So, what made you choose not to have insurance then.
> No medical need
> You had funds to cover medical needs
> 
> ...


I wanted insurance but I couldn't afford it. I suppose my income level was my own choice for a lot of that time, but part of that time I was a full-time caregiver for Alma. Seemed strange to be taking Alma to the doc, lab and hospital as often as I did while getting no medical care at all for myself.

Fortunately my health held out. I also came through it in good health, and with no ongoing issues. My heart is healthy, my BP is good, and my arteries are clear. Other than seasonal allergies I'm in pretty good shape for a 65 year-old.

Even with Obamacare I would have saved money by not having insurance the past 1 1/2 years. I've only seen my doc and had labs a couple of times. Paying $58 for insurance for 18 months was about $1000, but carrying insurance has value. I'm happy I had it.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I wanted insurance but I couldn't afford it. I suppose my income level was my own choice for a lot of that time, but part of that time I was a full-time caregiver for Alma. Seemed strange to be taking Alma to the doc, lab and hospital as often as I did while getting no medical care at all for myself.
> 
> Fortunately my health held out. I also came through it in good health, and with no ongoing issues. My heart is healthy, my BP is good, and my arteries are clear. Other than seasonal allergies I'm in pretty good shape for a 65 year-old.
> 
> Even with Obamacare I would have saved money by not having insurance the past 1 1/2 years. I've only seen my doc and had labs a couple of times. Paying $58 for insurance for 18 months was about $1000, but carrying insurance has value. I'm happy I had it.



Well,imagine if you went back to that situation and you were FORCED to buy insurance that after paying for it per the law.....you lived further down the rung and you could not afford to you it nor could you even afford your former lower standard of living...to be force to have over the counter meds out of your reach....


Just remember that while you dance over your luck at governmental robbery the person who purse was pinched is not dancing. 



DO YOU CARE ABOUT THEM.....THOSE PAYING FOR YOU TO HAVE WHEN IF IT COST YOU MONEY YOU ......CHOOSE NOT TO GET.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

darn computer. double post again.


----------



## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

double post. oops


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Nevada said:


> I suppose my income level was my own choice for a lot of that time, but part of that time I was a full-time caregiver for Alma.


The operative word in your post is CHOICE. The insurance your so grateful to have now is no longer a choice. If your situation changes, you no longer get to choose to drop coverage without incurring financial penalties imposed by the government.

They have the right to withhold taxes, put liens against your assets, wage garnishments will come into play. And, no matter how much your premium quote minus your subsidy equals, that is not the true cost of your annual premiums. (Google cobra vs. employer subsidized coverage for more info.) On top of that, all the money being spent to finance obamacare isn't even coming out of the earnings of americans this year. The costs of this will be thrust upon future working generations. Our government is forcing current and future generations into indefinite indentured servitude to the state. Remember please that in it's contemporary usage, the term indentured servitude was purely the politically correct term for a form of slavery.

I don't doubt that your priorities to adjust your income and spending at the time you CHOSE to go without insurance had merit. Caring for another person is a worthy task. But, if you want to thread drift and get into a "why my situation justified my decision" your missing the point of us all losing the freedom of choice with obamacare.

I'm not interested in playing the why I made the choice to go without A because of B, C, D, etc. Life is hard. Money and time are finite. Decisions and priorities have to be set. Something always gets sacrificed. Honestly, I'd put good money on me beating you at that game. But, guess what, there's probably someone else on HT who would beat me at the game. And, someone who would beat them.

You might be tickled pink this year because your budget sheet is balancing out super. But, nothing the government has ever taken over gets cheaper. So, look ahead at where this is all going. Right now, this is the best obamacare will ever be. It's all downhill from here. And, it's a pretty pitiful starting place, in my opinion.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> Well,imagine if you went back to that situation and you were FORCED to buy insurance that after paying for it per the law.....you lived further down the rung and you could not afford to you it nor could you even afford your former lower standard of living...to be force to have over the counter meds out of your reach....


Under the ACA I wouldn't have been forced to get insurance. I didn't make enough.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Under the ACA I wouldn't have been forced to get insurance. I didn't make enough.


Gosh, maybe I'm getting senile. I thought I remembered obamacare being touted as the solution to get "everybody" covered.

Too bad, they had to pass it so we could read it after.

Okay, I must be getting senile, cause I thought I also remembered being told all legislation would be published for a certain number of business days publicly before being signed or vetoes by the executive branch.

Please don't misinterpret me and think I'm anti-Obama or anti-liberal. I am. BUT, I'm sick and tired of 95% of every politician I encounter. They're all trash and make me sick.

I took my kids back east last year for a big "history of America" vacation. Had a great time. But, now that they've all become so much more knowledgeable about our nation's founding and history, it's very eye-opening to see how plain it is to them what's going on.

When they've studied world history, they've made numerous remarks about how our nation today isn't what the founding generation struggled, fought and died for. They've pointed out to me repeatedly how many similarities they see to soviet-style society and government and some others like Nazi-Germany.

They realize to why it is this way, because they see and hear about a lot of people's thoughts and opinions on-line. They've learned that we just have to look after each other and take care of our family, cause there are too many adults in this country asleep at the wheel for us to change where this country is headed.

It's sad, but at least my kids are growing up with their eyes open.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gibbsgirl said:


> Gosh, maybe I'm getting senile. I thought I remembered obamacare being touted as the solution to get "everybody" covered.


Well, yes. I would have qualified for Medicaid if ACA existed back then. But I wouldn't have been forced to buy insurance I couldn't afford.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> Under the ACA I wouldn't have been forced to get insurance. I didn't make enough.


That's an interesting observation.
Tell me, can you name another product in history that Americans were forced to buy if they were at a certain income level?:huh:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

farmrbrown said:


> That's an interesting observation.
> Tell me, can you name another product in history that Americans were forced to buy if they were at a certain income level?:huh:


Medicare & Social Security.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> Medicare & Social Security.


I had a feeling you'd pick that.

Of course, you must already know that they really can't force you if you don't want to, right?

https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-too...rom-Paying-Social-Security-Tax-/INF19965.html


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Medicare & Social Security.


Ah, yes. Two of the preceding pyramid schemes. Yeah, not a fan of either of those either.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Medicare & Social Security.


Also, that's not quite the same thing as only people financially earning are required to pay into those---not people who simply exist.

Kinda like states that collect taxes and require insurance for people who drive--not people who exist.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

gibbsgirl said:


> Here's the thing about that. And, I don't mean to seem overly critical of you personally. I know this has been a rather blunt conversation, so here's my thoughts on this comment you've made.
> 
> Frankly, I don't care. See, I learned along time ago that success and/or survival in this life is all about personal responsibility. For the most part we've always had insurance. The few times we didn't, we had to figure it out and pay out of pocket for what was needed. But, even in all the years we've had insurance there still has been many times that we have costs that are not covered by insurance at all. We've had to figure it out. Even with insurance our annual premium and out of pocket costs are consistently between $5,000 and $10,000 a year. And, that's a SIGNIFICANT part of our annual one-income budget.
> 
> ...


Post of the day award.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

kasilofhome said:


> Well,imagine if you went back to that situation and you were FORCED to buy insurance that after paying for it per the law.....you lived further down the rung and you could not afford to you it nor could you even afford your former lower standard of living...to be force to have over the counter meds out of your reach....
> 
> 
> Just remember that while you dance over your luck at governmental robbery the person who purse was pinched is not dancing.
> ...


Post of the day award.


----------



## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

gibbsgirl said:


> The operative word in your post is CHOICE. The insurance your so grateful to have now is no longer a choice. If your situation changes, you no longer get to choose to drop coverage without incurring financial penalties imposed by the government.
> 
> They have the right to withhold taxes, put liens against your assets, wage garnishments will come into play. And, no matter how much your premium quote minus your subsidy equals, that is not the true cost of your annual premiums. (Google cobra vs. employer subsidized coverage for more info.) On top of that, all the money being spent to finance obamacare isn't even coming out of the earnings of americans this year. The costs of this will be thrust upon future working generations. Our government is forcing current and future generations into indefinite indentured servitude to the state. Remember please that in it's contemporary usage, the term indentured servitude was purely the politically correct term for a form of slavery.
> 
> ...


Another post of the day award.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Medicare & Social Security.


How is that like obummerUNcare? Other than being programs form a socialist POTUS. How long did folks pay into this boondoggle of obummerUNcare? I do believe we paid into the other 2 all our working lives-then continue over $100/mo for medicare.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Under the ACA I wouldn't have been forced to get insurance. I didn't make enough.


ALMA DIED BEFORE Obama care....you had the choice...it was you who chose. 
How about changing your reality of the time to consider that there was no medical care.

Accept it that you had no insurance due to free will.. that IT WAS YOUR CHOICE.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> Accept it that you had no insurance due to free will.. that IT WAS YOUR CHOICE.


Yes, I accept that. Most of the time I was uninsured it was because I was operating my own business. That was a decision I made for myself. Starting a business would be a lot easier to do today with Obamacare, which is a good thing.


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Yes, I accept that. Most of the time I was uninsured it was because I was operating my own business. That was a decision I made for myself. Starting a business would be a lot easier to do today with Obamacare, which is a good thing.


So, why complain that no one cared.
Did you do it to see more profit.

Starting a business would be easier with out many of the newer government regs.

Has there Been a slow down in private sector new business and slower growth than in the eighties.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> So, why complain that no one cared.


It's the double standard. I'm supposed to be sympathetic towards people who lost insurance and had to buy ACA compliant insurance, yet those same people aren't sympathetic towards people who had no insurance at all.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Life's not fair. But, the population of this country has been getting baited by politicians for decades now, who have found out the sheeple will continue to elect and support them if they just promise to make it fair.

That's not possible. It's not even possible to get a consensus as to what fair is, let alone accomplish making it fair.


----------



## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> It's the double standard. I'm supposed to be sympathetic towards people who lost insurance and had to buy ACA compliant insurance, yet those same people aren't sympathetic towards people who had no insurance at all.


One problem today is some people who used to have insurance and could afford medical care have insurance today but can't afford to go to the doctor. Not that long ago we had to pay the first $400 of medical care out of our pocket before insurance kicked in. I'd have to dig out the paperwork to be sure but my old brain seems to remember the letter we got saying we were being forced to switch to an obamacare compliant plan also stated that our new deductible was $2,000/person/year. So lets look at some numbers.

Say I have two bad years and wind up with $10,000 in medical bills in each. The first I was covered by my old plan the second was under my new "affordable" obamacare plan.

Year #1 Total billed: $10,000. Out of pocket: $400 Co-pay with 20-80: $1,920 My total cost: $2,320

Year #2 Total billed: $10,000. Out of pocket: $2,000 Co-pay with 20-80: $1,600 My total cost: $3,600.

Your "affordable" insurance would cost me $1,280, now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that an increase of almost 70%. And that's on top of the higher cost for my new "affordable" insurance which means I have less of my income to pay for the extra cost. Be nice if the government would at least kiss me once before they screwed me again.


----------



## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

The SOB who jammed this system down the throats of an unwilling public will in the end get his. He is no more than the Manchurian Candidate, someone put up in order to destroy our system. His entire administration, including Kerry and Clinton are liars and racists. 

If you love obamacare, vote democratic in 2016 and you'll need food stamps a few months after.

We owe the Chinese so much money there is little hope of paying it back. When they Yuan is declared an international settlement currency by the IMF in October the Chinese will demand payment in Yuan, not dollars. 

The government has degraded our dollar so that our savings are wiped out. As soon as interest rates rise no one will want to lend us money at rates we can pay. 

Hang on to your hats, kiids; it is going to be a bumpy ride.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gibbsgirl said:


> Life's not fair.


OK fine. People lost their insurance because of the ACA. Life isn't fair.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Oxankle said:


> We owe the Chinese so much money there is little hope of paying it back.


Our debt is in dollars. What will happen when the recession is over is they'll dwarf the national debt through inflation. Debt will then be manageable because the government revenue will also grow through inflation.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Studies prove you wrong, NV, conservatives, of which are the majority here, give more to charity, donate more of their time as well as BLOOD. We've been helping those w/o ins. all along. 
i just participated in a fund raiser for a lady w/pancreatic cancer who lost ins. due to obummerUNcare.


----------



## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Nevada said:


> OK fine. People lost their insurance because of the ACA. Life isn't fair.


The point is our citizens were not guaranteed life would be fair and they'd be cared for by the constitution. All the new and expanded govt programs have very often made thongs worse and done the opposite of what they were advertised to do.

Personal responsibility and accountability for yourself and to your family and community has been systematically destroyed because the govt "has our back" at every stubbling point. We're all entitled to any news mber of things now.

My point in saying that life isn't fair was that the govt needs to stop meddling in everything. Let the chips fall where they may for each of us as we pursue what we each decide is a priority on our own.

When healthcare and any other type of transaction stays between those immediately involved without distant government and monopolistic corporations playing puppet master it works better. Period.

You can disagree. But debating this with you is starting to bore me because you're cherry picking little things here and there to deflect legitimate points that others are bringing up. We're all adults here but honestly some of the thread drifting you're trying to put out reminds me a f my kids debating tactics.

My internet is down and it doesn't make sense for me to waste my phone data on this thread.

I wish you all well in dealing with all these new healthcare consumer challenges.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gibbsgirl said:


> The point is our citizens were not guaranteed life would be fair and they'd be cared for by the constitution. All the new and expanded govt programs have very often made thongs worse and done the opposite of what they were advertised to do.


Understand that the ACA wasn't my idea. I wasn't complaining before the ACA, but I think it turned out well.

That's not just for myself. I have a daughter with 4 kids who's married to a regular army guy. He'll be leaving the military in a year. I like the idea that their healthcare is guaranteed during the transition to the private sector.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> It's the double standard. I'm supposed to be sympathetic towards people who lost insurance and had to buy ACA compliant insurance, yet those same people aren't sympathetic towards people who had no insurance at all.


There is no double standard here. You CHOSE to not carry health insurance... others have lost theirs because of the Ocare boondoggle.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> There is no double standard here. You CHOSE to not carry health insurance... others have lost theirs because of the Ocare boondoggle.


Don't they choose to not carry Obamacare?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> Our debt is in dollars. What will happen when the recession is over is they'll dwarf the national debt through inflation. Debt will then be manageable because the government revenue will also grow through inflation.



Boy, if I have to hear that old standby excuse for why "debt is ok, don't worry, be happy", I think I'll go postal on somebody, lol.

Inflation is NEVER ok, never.
That's gov't propaganda, or Wall Street propaganda, left/right, whatever you want to call it, but it's the same thing you find coming out of the back end of a bull......

Look, inflation is like playing Roulette. It may be the best odds in town, but it's still gambling and there will always be more losers than winners.
Sure, the debt will appear to go down, sure some wages will rise and COLA's, but if you aren't one of the lucky ones you are in the big pile of losers whose wages didn't rise as fast as inflation and all your expenses are now proportionally higher than they were before it started.




Nevada said:


> Understand that the ACA wasn't my idea. I wasn't complaining before the ACA, but I think it turned out well.


Don't make me go on an expedition thru old threads. You know you were complaining. I know I was complaining about the insurance industry scams going back to the 1980's. And our complaints were legitimate.
But at the risk of having another one of my posts deleted for telling the truth.........don't lie about it. Be a man and stand by what you say.





Nevada said:


> Don't they choose to not carry Obamacare?


I know I did. 
The IRS tried to trick me into committing perjury on my 1040, but I didn't fall for it. Instead I filed my own "exemption form" and informed them that establishing a religion was violating the 1st amendment. Hopefully I'll have a date with the SCOTUS soon.:rock:


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Don't they choose to not carry Obamacare?


Is THAT the point? I thought the point was they SHOULD NOT HAVE LOST THEIR INS! They "LIKED their ins."!!! 
Please tell me why this Idiotincharge's admin didn't just 'fix' the uninsured? Wait, stop-the uninsured that WANTED ins.? Compared to this horrific boondoggle,that woulda been easier & faaaar cheeeeper.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Don't they choose to not carry Obamacare?


Many cannot afford Ocare due to its much higher premiums... the plans they liked were affordable but no longer exist.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Many cannot afford Ocare due to its much higher premiums... the plans they liked were affordable but no longer exist.


But I couldn't afford insurance before Obamacare.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> But I couldn't afford insurance before Obamacare.


Why not? It was much cheaper then than now. I was able to afford my own insurance when I was making in the 4k to 5k a year range.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Why not? It was much cheaper then than now. I was able to afford my own insurance when I was making in the 4k to 5k a year range.


Nonsense. Insurance for someone around 60 years old was $500/month. That's $6,000/year just for insurance premiums.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Thats nonsense~!' 
My friend was paying 225 a month and THAT was for a Preexisting condition as well~!!! And he was 62 when getting a covered too.
you just had to do some RESEARCH and ASK questions and comply with what was offered after that. There WAS coverage out there if one Looked for and did some nice research time but nope lets just let the government TRY and come up with something. Ya right thats the ticket.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Nonsense. Insurance for someone around 60 years old was $500/month. That's $6,000/year just for insurance premiums.


My premiums were 227 per month just before I was 55, after I turned 55 they went to a bit over 300. Within a month after Ocare was passed they jumped to 650.... no longer affordable for me so had to switch over to another company and plan via my Yvonne's employer. Had you bothered to insure yourself you might have better knowledge of what premiums actually cost prior to Ocare.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> My premiums were 227 per month just before I was 55, after I turned 55 they went to a bit over 300. Within a month after Ocare was passed they jumped to 650.... no longer affordable for me so had to switch over to another company and plan via my Yvonne's employer. Had you bothered to insure yourself you might have better knowledge of what premiums actually cost prior to Ocare.


DH (w/2 costly pre-existings) had a perfectly satisfactory plan THAT HE LIKED w/ BCBS for a little more than $400/mo. Luckily, it was taken away & one nearly twice the cost was substituted, so he could have maternity care, Gyn care, & free b.c.

The more we have these discussions the more I hate the dem party.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> My premiums were 227 per month just before I was 55, after I turned 55 they went to a bit over 300.


I saw insurance like that, but I couldn't afford the deductibles and copays.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

You were healthy and didn't really go to the doc anyways, Why worry about high deductibles. Sure would have been better then going without don't ya think?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> You were healthy and didn't really go to the doc anyways, Why worry about high deductibles. Sure would have been better then going without don't ya think?


This is why I'm concerned with conservatives being in charge.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Yep a true conservative is not Santa... they are the protectors of everyone rights.. and treat people equal.. judging only by a person's character..


Scary to many


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> Yep a true conservative is not Santa... they are the protectors of everyone rights.. and treat people equal.. judging only by a person's character..
> 
> 
> Scary to many


You nave no problem with the logic that I didn't need insurance because I was healthy?

The reality was that I had no idea how healthy I was going to remain all those years. I could have been in an accident, had a heart attack, or even been diagnosed with cancer. But you don't think I needed insurance because I seemed healthy.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Medical care is not the same as insurance.
One can get medical care without insurance.

No doctor have refused me care with out insurance.... the just reduce the bill for cash payments and I adjust my budget.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> Medical care is not the same as insurance.
> One can get medical care without insurance.
> 
> No doctor have refused me care with out insurance.... the just reduce the bill for cash payments and I adjust my budget.


If someone can't afford insurance, how is he supposed to afford a major medical event?


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Understand that the ACA wasn't my idea. I wasn't complaining before the ACA, but I think it turned out well.


Perhaps you weren't complaining for yourself, but you certainly claimed, repeatedly, that people were dying in the streets for lack of healthcare. Some of us argued that that wasn't true, those w/o insurance could go to the ER, etc. Obamacare was supposed to reduce those costs as well.

And I don't comprehend how you can claim that ACA turned out well.

If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor - false
If you like your healthcare plan, you can keep your healthcare plan - false
Obamacare will reduce ER visits, thus reducing healthcare costs - false
Obamacare will reduce insurance premiums by up to $2500 for a typical family - false

:stars:


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Well, lifestyle choices... knowing what is a want and what is a need. Then saving to have the option to make a personal choice. 

I paid for my cancer thru not getting in debt, savings working extra jobs and living below my means. I had insurance but they didn't want to pay the claim so I did and later they regretted their choice and refunded me which went to pay round two and three along with payment from my extra job...it was a challenge but it was my life and my choice.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Txsteader said:


> If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor - false
> If you like your healthcare plan, you can keep your healthcare plan - false
> Obamacare will reduce ER visits, thus reducing healthcare costs - false
> Obamacare will reduce insurance premiums by up to $2500 for a typical family - false


1. I kept my doctor.
2. I didn't have a healthcare plan before.
3. I haven't been to an ER for myself for longer than I can remember.
4. It reduce my insurance premiums with a $6,000/year subsidy.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Are you putting your savings aside... warning Medicare does not cover everything and due to the payment structure in Obama care....doctors profit more from Medicaid thus it is harder to find doctors who jump for joy when Medicare enters the playing field. Some doctors set a quota for new Medicare pt.

Just an FYI.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> Are you putting your savings aside... warning Medicare does not cover everything and due to the payment structure in Obama care....doctors profit more from Medicaid thus it is harder to find doctors who jump for joy when Medicare enters the playing field. Some doctors set a quota for new Medicare pt.
> 
> Just an FYI.


I'm not going on Medicare. I'm joining a Medicare Advantage HMO instead. There is no deductible. Copays are very small, with no copay to see a doctor or specialist, and hospitals stays have no copay.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Co pay are a cost that varies with the care selected.. never hurts to save when you can.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> Co pay are a cost that varies with the care selected.. never hurts to save when you can.


I'm stacking silver.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Good.. just accept that medical care cost and something is traded to get what everyone wants.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I saw insurance like that, but I couldn't afford the deductibles and copays.


This makes no sense whatsoever. I am quite sure the deductibles and copays were far less than having to pay the bills without insurance. For years I had pretty good coverage through BCBS... it was a 20/80 plan with a 2k deductible. Started out with it for 125 a month premium. (this was in the early 80s) That meant I paid 20 percent of any major expense and they paid the other 80 percent until I paid up to 2k... at which time the rest of my bills were paid entirely by BCBS. I felt I couldnt be without it.... even when I had trouble scrimping up that 125 meant living with no phone, no running water, no electricity and very few other "luxuries". 



Nevada said:


> If someone can't afford insurance, how is he supposed to afford a major medical event?


He cant..... thats why people of wisdom opt to insure themselves. Believe it or not the vast majority of Americans found ways to keep themselves insured prior to Ocare. Almost as many as do now.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Txsteader said:


> Perhaps you weren't complaining for yourself, but you certainly claimed, repeatedly, that people were dying in the streets for lack of healthcare. Some of us argued that that wasn't true, those w/o insurance could go to the ER, etc. Obamacare was supposed to reduce those costs as well.
> 
> And I don't comprehend how you can claim that ACA turned out well.
> 
> ...


You forgot-ALL will have insurance! AFORDABLE!

Seems a few have gone from one medicaid plan to another...no gain in insured. Seems if nearly 6 mill LOST theirs, you gotta take those #s into consideration. Many illegals were incouraged to join up. So no real success here, huh. Lots of LIES, huh. Seems most of us predicted most of this, huh.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I'm stacking silver.


Its good to see you are making good use of the money others are having to pay for your health insurance.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I'm not going on Medicare. I'm joining a Medicare Advantage HMO instead. There is no deductible. Copays are very small, with no copay to see a doctor or specialist, and hospitals stays have no copay.


All well and good, for now.  Thanks to Obamacare, those plans will lose $156 billion in funding by 2022. There's a possibility that companies will have to raise rates and/or cut benefits. Some major companies have already begun making cuts to their physician network. 

Hopefully, you won't get seriously ill and wish you had made a different choice.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> But I couldn't afford insurance before Obamacare.


You couldn't afford it or you just made the choice to spend your money on something else?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> If someone can't afford insurance, how is he supposed to afford a major medical event?


There you go. You could have afforded insurance to cover those major medical events but you chose not to. You could have bought a cheap plan which only covers those major medical events then work out paying for the minor ones with your doctor.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Txsteader said:


> All well and good, for now. Thanks to Obamacare, those plans will lose $156 billion in funding by 2022. There's a possibility that companies will have to raise rates and/or cut benefits. Some major companies have already begun making cuts to their physician network.
> 
> Hopefully, you won't get seriously ill and wish you had made a different choice.


I'll take what I get. It's fair to compensate all Medicare recipients equally. Right now it's to my advantage to be a Medicare Advantage subscriber, but if that changes I'll reevaluate my situation.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> There you go. You could have afforded insurance to cover those major medical events but you chose not to. You could have bought a cheap plan which only covers those major medical events then work out paying for the minor ones with your doctor.


The point is that if you're only making $5,000/year and can't afford good quality health insurance, you also aren't going to be able to afford a $10,000/year deductible.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Nevada said:


> The point is that if you're only making $5,000/year and can't afford good quality health insurance, you also aren't going to be able to afford a $10,000/year deductible.




That is why many do not get the trill of obamacare


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> The point is that if you're only making $5,000/year and can't afford good quality health insurance, you also aren't going to be able to afford a $10,000/year deductible.


Ok. What if you are making $45K a year, FORCED to spend $4K a year for health insurance on top taxes and your other bills and have to pay for the first $2,000 of your medical bills. Are you going to go to the doctor unless there is something really bad wrong with you? 

I'd love to go to the doc. I have a lot of small medical issues but I really can't afford to spend $2,000 plus my co-pay even over 12 months to have them treated. When we had the pre-obamacare insurance where our out of pocket was only $400 I was going to the doc. So thanks to obamacare I'm in WORSE health and living with a lot more physical pain and have less money to live on because if the increased cost of health care insurance I CAN'T REALLY AFFORD TO USE. Think about that the next time you pay the part of your medical insurance I AM NOT PAYING FOR WITH MY TAXES and supporting the system with my increased premiums I'm paying for a service I can't afford.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I'm stacking silver.


So, I guess this gets you around the investment earnings clause? If you had $$ investments then your part of ins would be more?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

I noticed in the news that Job Bush suggested that the health care apps on his Apple Watch could replace Obamacare. Pretty random if you ask me...

In response, Debbie Wasserman Schultz tweeted "I had cancer. There's no app for that."

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jeb-bush...place-obamacare-wasserman-schultz-fires-back/


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Nevada said:


> I noticed in the news that Job Bush suggested that the health care apps on his Apple Watch could replace Obamacare. Pretty random if you ask me...
> 
> In response, Debbie Wasserman Schultz tweeted "I had cancer. There's no app for that."
> 
> http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jeb-bush...place-obamacare-wasserman-schultz-fires-back/


And another diversion of the topic.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

where I want to said:


> And another diversion of the topic.


 Ya typical, twist, tweak, leave out important facts, look the other way, only hear what they want to hear, and read what they want to read, and post only what they are comfortable about, and if all that fails, post something that has nothing to do with the OP. Ya Typical.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Seems its not doing so good, like we didn't know...Is it Spring yet? Almost 1/2 exchanges are struggling.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...2eeea2-ea03-11e4-aae1-d642717d8afa_story.html


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Tricky Grama said:


> Seems its not doing so good, like we didn't know...Is it Spring yet? Almost 1/2 exchanges are struggling.
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...2eeea2-ea03-11e4-aae1-d642717d8afa_story.html


And then there is this one.
*The dire ObamaCare threat to New Yorkâs hospitals*


> City Comptroller Scott Stringer laid out the grim facts last week on how the most progressive law in decades means disaster for New York City.
> The bottom line of Stringerâs report: Thanks to the Affordable Care Act, aka ObamaCare, Uncle Sam will cut more than $800 million in payments to the cityâs Health and Hospitals Corp, by Fiscal Year 2019.
> The presidentâs signature law slashes federal payments that long helped out hospitals serving lots of patients who lack insurance. The idea was that the law would boost coverage so dramatically the aid would be unnecessary.


http://nypost.com/2015/05/16/the-dire-obamacare-threat-to-new-yorks-hospitals/


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

And now it is a gun to the head of states who refused Medicaid Expansion under Obamacare. 

The latest cute thing I read is that the bill that small businesses and individuals, which raised their premiums across the board, had to cover for Obamacare's various fees to providers is now coming due to the States, who have been told they must add those costs into what they paid for all Medicaid plans. So much for the Feds paying all of the costs.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> I'd love to go to the doc. I have a lot of small medical issues but I really can't afford to spend $2,000 plus my co-pay even over 12 months to have them treated. When we had the pre-obamacare insurance where our out of pocket was only $400 I was going to the doc.


My Obamacare policy doesn't have a deductible for routine care. There are small copays to see the doctor and get labs & xrays, but they're affordable. Do you have an Obamacare HMO available in your area?


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> My Obamacare policy doesn't have a deductible for routine care. There are small copays to see the doctor and get labs & xrays, but they're affordable. Do you have an Obamacare HMO available in your area?


Don't know and don't care. I'm not going to steal money from my kids and my neighbors to take care of myself. I rather hurt and even die a few years early than do something that low down and dishonorable.


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