# a few questions



## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Couple quick questions about spinning and my wheel.

Does a whorl have anything to do with the diameter of size of what's being spun?
Will it naturally try to make a certain size of yarn? I know a person can purposely do what they want with the yarn, I'm curious if left to a kind of default, it will try to go to a certain diameter.

Can the side of the bobbin usually used for scotch tension be used for double drive instead, or will that put to much tension on the wheel and cause it to warp out of shape? See photo



Tia!


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## kkbinco (Jun 11, 2010)

n/m I'll defer to others.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Thanks, Kkbinco, With the biggest whorl it works out that way!!! The tension works perfect with that combo. I was just worried the wrong end of the bobbin may put too much tension on the wheel. Silly I know. 
I got another question, I have to figure out how to post a mp4 first-it's related


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## kkbinco (Jun 11, 2010)

The reason I edited my post was I just double check with my wheel. Seems my Super-Fast whorl(which I'm scared to try) is smaller than my bobbin whorl!

Hey, if it works it works. Right?


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

That's what I think too, usually. :sing:
My wheel wobbles some and I'm wondering if it's okay or not. Maybe the bigger wheels do that. 
I took a vid, can't post as it's an unsupported format.

I was just wondering if the surface area of the wrong side of the bobbin would exert too much force.

Since I got my looms I've been paying more and more attention about force. I'm surprised how much can be applied and I'm not really aware of it.


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## kkbinco (Jun 11, 2010)

As far as swapping the bobbin end-for-end I can only think of two things to watch for. 

First would be where bobbin and flyer whorl rub against each other, if they do it should only be down by the axle.

The other might be loss of the use of hooks closest the orifice.


For the video, can you post it to youtube then put the youtube link here?


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

I will give that a try!


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Here's how it work in as plain as simple as I can make it. It isn't really rocket s incentive but it can take a bit to wrap your mind around. Once you do it really logical.

To begin with you don't need different sized whorls to spin all types of yarn, adjusting the tension will do that for the most part. You do gave to be a bit more skilled as a spinner though. 

The smaller the whorl the more revolutions of the flyer/bobbin assembly to the rotations of the drive wheel you will get. In general the smaller the whorl the smaller or thinner the yarn. Also the faster the wheel will turn. Treadling works in here too. 

The drafting triangle is the only thing that will determine the diameter of the singles you spin.

Because thinner yarns generally need more twist that bunker yarns do, you need more TPI (twists per inch) for thing yarn than you do for heavier/thicker yarns. The length if the staple also determines the tpi needed. Shorter fibers, cashmere, cotton...., need more twist to hold them together, therefore spinning a shorter fiber into a thinner yarn makes sense since you need a lot of twist to hold it together. You probably can't get enough twist for a thicker yarn, at least not one that will hold up to use and washings.

Does that make sense? The ONLY real way to determine or control the thickness or diameter of a yarn is to control the drafting triangle. Everything else just aids you and helps yo make it a bit easier.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Thank You Marchwind!

It makes sense!  I was just hoping that a certain whorl would "incline" the fiber to spin a certain diameter. Your explanation did clear up a few things I was wondering about.

I got the vid I made about the wheel wobble uploaded to youtube.
Im very very interested if this is normal or if the wheel is bad

[YOUTUBE]eOaWjyq8OSA&feature[/YOUTUBE]


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## hotzcatz (Oct 16, 2007)

Looks like a more or less "normal" amount of wobble to me. 

You can use the other end of the bobbin for a double drive. The tension would come from how much you put on it, not necessarily from having the drive band loop around twice.

Usually the larger whorls - which make the flyer go slower - are used when making thicker yarns. The smaller whorls - which make the flyer go faster - are used when making thinner yarns. But, these are just generalities and can be overcome by a spinner who wants to do something different. But, you have to work harder to spin fat when the flyer is going fast and it gets tedious to spin thin with a slow flyer.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Thank You Hotzcat!!

I'm so relived to know that's normalish!! I freaked when I saw it.

I found just the right mix with that whorl-cause it's so big, and the wrong end of the bobbin. Then I noticed the wobble and thought the 2 might be related, or that I was damaging the wheel.

Most the spinning I've done has been really fine. I'm trying to break out of that mold. That combo allows me the most range from small to large, with minimum leg effort!! The large end of the bobbin is actually kinda small compared to the whorl, lol


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## hotzcatz (Oct 16, 2007)

I'm pretty sure that with a double drive, your take up (how hard the fibers are pulled into the flyer) will be controlled by the difference between the whorl on the bobbin and the whorl on the flyer. The larger the difference in the diameters, the more the fiber will be pulled onto the bobbin. But I could be wrong, I have limited experience with a double drive.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

The small end of the bobbin is just too small. I've been doing mostly DD on this wheel, I can use DD with this set up.

DD to me has a kind of steadiness.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Actually no . I do not think that is normal for a new wheel to wobble like that. I'm wondering if your hub assembly may not be properly seated. Maybe MullersLaneFarm or SvenskaFlicka can give more input. But I'm saying that is NOT normal for a new wheel.


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## SvenskaFlicka (Nov 2, 2011)

That does not look like normal wobble to me. None of my Ashfords here wobble. That wheel is supposed to be the smoothest of Ashford's current wheels too.

I don't know what would cause that exactly, though.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Pearl,

My question is:

Does it wobble like that when you set it up "properly" too,
or only when you put the drive band on the backwards bobbin?
That would be an easy test to conduct. 

Such a pretty wheel!


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## Wind in Her Hair (Jul 18, 2002)

*Another vote for "that is NOT a normal amount of wobble". *

Take the drive band off and the tension off - THEN see if it wobbles. It if does, it may be like Marchwind suggested - the drive wheel might not be properly seated *OR* one of the uprights is not seated firmly/properly and that could be throwing it off. 

Not normal for a new wheel. Even my 100 plus year old wheel doesn't wobble like that.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

The drive band was off it in that vid. I will check and see, I think the assembly is correct.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

I'​m hoping MLF will see this thread and tell me if hers spins like that.

Should I contact Ashford and ask them to replace? Is there a specific name for that kind of defect?

It spun like that since I put it together.
The medium whorl is all wonky, almost comical when you put the 2 together

Tia


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

So NOT normal.. Getting a video of mine now, hope I can upload it!!!

You wouldn't have the 'hang time' of the wheel continuously spinning if the uprights were not set correctly. Actually, the fit is so tight with the uprights, spacers & hub that I can't imagine you being able to assemble it at all if everything wasn't lined up perfectly.


eta:
I can't see from the video. Do you have a spacer on both sides of the drive wheel?


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Yes, spacers on both sides. They can't really be fitted incorrectly.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Nope, they can't. I'm uploading a video of mine. It will take a bit of time. Once I it is uploaded, I'll load it here.

In the meantime, contact Ashford. This is not right.

Double drive vs Scotch (flyer led) vs Irish (bobbin led) tensions.

First the Ashford bobbin can be used in either direction. There is a small bobbin whorl on one side and a large bobbin whorl on the other. This gives you more take up speed control when spinning with double drive or Irish tension. You can use either end of the bobbin ... it is not one or the other is the 'correct' end.

The smaller the flyer whorl, the more revolutions of the flyer per one revolution of the drive wheel, the more twist in the fiber.

I've spun the Lizzie in both double drive and scotch tension. The take up when in double drive is a lot stronger than with a scotch tension. The double drive also seems to make a more dense, compact bobbin .... i.e. more yarn on the bobbin using the double drive per ounce of fiber.

When using the DD feature, I was able to pack on 2 oz in the same amount of bobbin space as I did a little over 1 oz when spinning with the scotch tension. Now a lot of this may be due to my learning this wheel.

I was using the smallest whorl ratio with the medium sized whorl for the double drive, but used the smallest whorl ratio with the smallest sized whorl for the scotch tension.

She just eats up fiber!!!


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Thank You MLF :bow:

I couldn't get the small whorl to work without a lot of leg work. I will definitely give that a try!

Is there a name for that kind of defect?


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

I posted this on FB but I can't seem to imbed the video. It is 'public' on my FB so anyone should be able to view it.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=994291153930698&l=4783864046851099485


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Thank you MLF!

Yours spins so beautifully it makes me want to cry :sob:

I emailed the youtube vid to Ashfords. Will see what they say.
Im going over the assembly & trying to think if there is anything
that could account for this & if I can fix it.

Sadly I think the wheel is just warped.


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## Kasota (Nov 25, 2013)

((((PearlB))))) Oh, my heart just breaks for you! This is sure not what you needed! I hope you hear from Ashford soon and they get you a replacement!


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Pearl can you show us what you were talking about the whorl being all wonky?


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Thank You Kasota!


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Marchwind said:


> Pearl can you show us what you were talking about the whorl being all wonky?


I got to take another video for that. That wheel did that before I spun anything on it. I should have dealt with it then. I thought maybe bigger wheels do that.
I thought it couldn't be broke straight out of the box


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Marchie, The vid that Pearl posted was sans drive band.

I've ran my wheel in both double drive and scotch tension. There is nothing about the flyer whorl that would make her drive wheel this out of balance.

After putting together my Lizzie there is nothing short of one of the spacer missing that would cause this wheel to wobble like this. The fit between the uprights, the spacers and the drive wheel is tight. Everything has to align, else the rod isn't going through it all.

I thought about the rod being bent, but how in the heck would/could you get it fitted through the upright, large spacer, drive wheel, small spacer, upright and still have it spin freely? You wouldn't. That drive wheel is warped. I hope Ashford makes it good for you.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Thank You MLF!!

That's what I've been thinking too. There's just nothing that can be wrong in the assembly and have the wheel turn, and it turns good.
The spacers are a short one and a long one. The long one sits in an inset. There's no way to mix them up and get things to work, or not notice it's wrong.

I hope Ashford does too. I'm just bummed out on the wheel right now


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

There is no way you could have screwed up the assembly and have it spin so freely. 

The wheel has a great 'hang time', meaning it keeps going without treadling. There is nothing impeding that wheel turning.

That wheel is warped badly which means that the drive band can easily jump from whorl to whorl on the flyer or jump off all together.

I'm anxious to hear how Ashford responds


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Thank You MLF , 

It's a great relief to know I didn't stuff it! 
I'm curious to see what Ashford is going to do to.

Hopefully they will do the right thing.

I think I'm going back to knitting for awhile


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Pearl I don't think anyone is meaning/saying you did anything wrong  We are just trying to help trouble shoot. I will be interested to hear how Ashford chooses to deal with this as well. Please let us know as soon as you hear from them.


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## hotzcatz (Oct 16, 2007)

Well, I guess this old CPW here has expanded my view of "wobble" if your wheel was antique, it'd be within a workable range. Isn't it working now, though? New out of the box, it does seem a bit more than you'd expect and hope for. Does it work with the amount of wobble it has? It would be a pity not to be able to use it while waiting to see if they will improve it.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Marchwind, 

No worries, I know everyone is trying to help and I really appreciate that!!!
I really appreciate all the help MLF has offered too. It really helps me to know it wasn't something I did, as that has been going through my mind.

Hotzcatz,
I know you were trying to help and I really appreciate it! Yes it does work now. Actually it doesn't bother me so much. It's just that this being new I have a feeling the wood is going to expand and contract, and I wonder if in a few years it will be throwing drive bands to the point it's unuseable. Not to mention it shoots down any potential for resale should I want or Need to sell it.

I'm wondering too if it's going to be a problem since I just had the 24" replaced. I wonder if they are going to be thinking I'm doing something to the wheels. What are the chances of 2 in a row? High dollar products too. Most factories pay a little more attention to the expensive products.

Why did something so obviously defective even make it out the door?
I've worked in plenty of factories. It's a little thing called QC. You check the product before you slam it out the door. 
I'm kinda thinking I dont want a replacement. I want my money back. 

I went through a local dealer that worships Ashford, I'm not sure she believes they can make something so defective. There's that hurdle. Plus I paid cash. Big mistake on my part.

So yeah I'm a bit ticked right now.

Not to mention this solar vortex thing caught me off guard and I've been busy with emergency winterizing. :hysterical:

Happens every year. We go from 100% to 32% in the space of a few days. No warning at all. Oh well.

Hopefully Ashford will do the right thing and replace the wheel without a lot of hassle.
SvenskaFlicka was kind enough to send me the main distributers name for N.America. I know him well :hysterical: I was getting ready to ship the 24" back in July when I fell and broke my leg. He was kind enough to wait for the wheel till I got out of rehab and back on my feet abit.
He is a really nice guy. I will contact him and the dealer and Ashford next week and get the process going. 

Thank you everyone for your help!


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## Osiris (Jun 9, 2010)

Not sure about the wobble pearl, but you could definitely post that video on youtube "Ghost caught on camera" :teehee: j/k 
I love the support you're getting.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Osiris,

This forum is hands down the best on the net for support, knowledge and encouragement. :bow: :buds:

I know without it I never would have made it as far as I have :kiss:


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

LOL about a ghost ... when I posted the vid on FB a friend asked me if I knew I had a ghost in the house.

On the Ashford forum on Ravelry they were talking about the first shipments of the 30" having rough surfaces & hit & miss finish.

I checked my wheel carefully when I opened it & don't have these problems.

Have to say the placement of the orifice hook at the back of the table is just bad engineering. To adjust the MoA you need to remove the hook. I like my hooks to hang on the front maiden so the original hook will be going into a bag that hangs on the wheel.

I have a bone handle hook Paul made hanging from the wheel.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Good News,

A replacement wheel is on it's way!!! 

Thank you Everyone for helping me! :bow:


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Yay!!!!


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Do you have to pack up and send back the other one? I'm glad to know they are sending you I new wheel. Are they sending a whole new wheel or just a new drive wheel? What about the whorl?


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## Kasota (Nov 25, 2013)

Wooooot! Oh, PearlB! I am so happy for you!!!! That is just flat awesome news!  :sing:


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Marchwind said:


> Do you have to pack up and send back the other one? I'm glad to know they are sending you I new wheel. Are they sending a whole new wheel or just a new drive wheel? What about the whorl?


Yes, lol. Luckily, I didn't throw out any of the packaging. 
I'm not looking forward to yanking that crank back out. It should come out easier this time. It took me 2 trys to get it right. It gets easier each redo.
I'm not looking forward to the new one though. Haha, my arm is barely okay from the last one

Mike the guy for the N.A distribution, apologized for 2 bad wheels in a row. Said he's never seen that before.
I didn't say anything about the whorl. I've got a duplicate from the 24 anyways.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

Kasota said:


> Wooooot! Oh, PearlB! I am so happy for you!!!! That is just flat awesome news!  :sing:


Should be here Wednesday.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Great news, Yea, I wouldn't be looking forward to re-packing the other one either 

Hopefully now that you have so much experience putting the wheel together it should be easier and smoother this time around.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

It's just that the fit is really really tight. Which is good. It's just a pain the first time, lol. My neighbor won't help after the last one either, hahaha. We both ripped our hands up. There's a small metal round piece on it, that fits up snug against the upright.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Lube up the shaft real good, put the large spacer in, start sliding in the shaft. Set the wheel in place, push the shaft through while turning the wheel. Now to deal with the small shaft. I inserted and held the small shaft in place with a pair of scissors (I couldn't find my needle nose pliers).

Move the wheel around and around while pushing the shaft in. It helps a LOT. I had the drive wheel in place in minutes (by myself).


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

MullersLaneFarm said:


> Lube up the shaft real good, put the large spacer in, start sliding in the shaft. Set the wheel in place, push the shaft through while turning the wheel. Now to deal with the small shaft. I inserted and held the small shaft in place with a pair of scissors (I couldn't find my needle nose pliers).
> 
> Move the wheel around and around while pushing the shaft in. It helps a LOT. I had the drive wheel in place in minutes (by myself).


Thank You Cyndi!

I will definitely give that a try, in conjunction with the wax. I usually just rub a crazy amount of paraffin wax on it.


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