# The hurdles of getting started



## orchidius (May 19, 2014)

Hi there, As some of you might have read in the introduction section of the board, I'm considering homesteading as a long-term plan for my life. I've been doing a lot of research and reading a lot of books. John Seymour makes note of the one-acre farm and the five-acre farm in "the self-sufficient life and how to live it". His reasoning makes a lot of sense, and he also notes that having more land increases your flexibility, but not necessarily your production. While this might be true, he does leave the reader with two big questions I'm hoping you guys could shed some light on.

*1. Starting capital*

While living self-sufficiently on homesteads like the one described by John Seymour seems very doable, starting one up seems a tough nut to crack. You "make" enough food and other resources for your family to live comfortably, and some surplus to be sold for a little profit that then goes to some of the costs you're bound to have (tools, emergencies, small luxuries,â¦). He doesn't talk about aquiring the homestead in the first place at all though. If you buy it "ready to go" there's a huge upfront cost. If you buy land, tools and materials to build the homestead yourself there's still a big upfront cost. One could loan money for this purpose, but then you would have to pay back the bank with no guaranteed source of income. This would only result in a ton more stress I would think.

Are most all homesteaders people that bought land a fair while back when it was really affordable? Are they people who have had a succesful career, have the funds but want a different lifestyle? How do they do it?

*2. Finding the property*

I'm based in Belgium, Europe myself. There's about 12,000,000 of us Belgians living in a country the size of MD, meaning the whole country is pretty much urban or sub-urban country and all the rest is dedicated nature reserve or commercial farmland. Even one acre is considered a mass of land, and the only private properties that I know of of that area are owned by the ultra-rich.

Soâ¦ how much land does the average homestead have? How much do you really need to run a succesful homestead that feeds the family well? I have considered moving to a different country, but for obvious reasons am hesitant. Are there countries known for their cheap/good land that are home to many homesteaders/self-sufficient communities? 

Thanks!


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## crazyfarm (Oct 29, 2013)

Well I can't offer you up much. I have not a lot of personal experience in homesteading even though I've had 40 acres for over 5 years. We haven't done much with it at all. Anyway, what I can say comes from lots and lots of research on my part. Many people work outside of the home/farm. One person does at least, usually the husband. The wife cares for the homestead and the kids. For those who do not work off the homestead it is usually because they once did. They worked until retirement and then sold everything and moved to a small homestead where they live out the remainder of their days. 

I am looking into utilizing more of our acreage but my husband and I do both work full time in the city. We have no plans to change that. We make good money and so financial means aren't a problem for us. I enjoy going out on a Saturday morning and collecting our eggs for breakfast. I enjoy eating beef we raised ourselves. I still grocery shop for the largest portion of our food because, as said, we don't utilize much.

As far as where you live, I can't imagine. There are 576, 000 people in my entire state. We are the least populated state and the 10th largest. Land is readily available in very large quantities here. I can't imagine living that close to that many people. Yikes!

Space needed is all about creative utilization imo. Take 1 thing and have many uses for it. I used the duck pond I made as an example in another thread. I built a pond for my ducks. It has biofiltration. So I can sell excess bio filter plants online for money. I can also raise crawdads and eating fish in the pond. So there are 4 uses for 1 thing. Also helps if you can get from others. When we raised our cows we did not spend any money on hay. To do that we made arrangements with someone who had a hay baler. They would bale 20acres of land and keep 1/2 the hay as their payment. In this way we didn't have to buy any hay for the winter and neither did the neighbor with the baler. Win win!

We have a chicken plucker we bought that we use to process our own birds but is also rented out to others. 

Anyway, just some ideas on how to make money homesteading from someone who isn't really doing it. lol

Good luck!


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## Jhomestead8 (Jan 20, 2014)

I don't know. We live in NY and land is abundant. We currently selling our 84 acres with house and barns for a bit over $200k. Land is plentiful here and CHEAP!! Taxes in parts are high but ours low. So I can't imagine living somewhere that an acre is a lot of land.

Right now we are downsizing so we have chickens. We had pigs and goats and sheep were on the roster with meat rabbits before fall. We grow our own hay for the animals and if we were staying had plans to grow feed corn and oats for them as well. We currently have enough space to easily support a couple families (that was the plan) and be totally self sufficient as far as the animals went. The family that had planned to join us had an Eco home planned with all materials from the property. 
There is a pretty good market growing here for local, organic farm goods so we were all set to make some $$ to help support the families. We have a mortgage on the farm but got it cheap (house was a dump) and fixed it up. The extra farm cash was going toward paying it off early. Now hoping a like minded homesteader gets to enjoy it 
Hope that helps a bit.


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## urban gleaner (Jan 23, 2014)

I dont know if some of these websites are applicable for Europeans or not, but if they are, take a look because they often have inexpensive land listed.

landwatch.com
zillow.com
trulia.com

And those are just a start. Are there homesteading groups/forums for any European countries? Or permaculture groups/forums? And within the European Union (Sorry can't remember what the name is) can't y'all travel/purchase/live in member countries without a big legal complications? If so, look at your own neck of the woods, first, since it would certainly be easier than trying to immigrate. And with all the associated costs of immigration, buying or long term lease on land in Europe somewhere, would probably be cheaper. BUT do your homework first. Political climate, access/cost for medical care, weather conditions, is it an active earthquake zone, check topo maps for terrain features, access to water... the list-no matter where you want to go-is very long and this is only a start. After you find areas that meet your criteria, THEN after all that homework, you can narrow it down to the areas to actually look for old farmsteads. Not that long ago, abandoned farms in France, Italy and Spain where going cheap. But they were, in Spain and Italy, extremely remote and usually earthquake zones. Some areas water was a big issue. Eastern Europe is better, but politically, I wouldn't go anywhere near them.

I'll be glad to answer any questions, but really, look for those two types of forums in the areas you want to buy FIRST. The members would be the best ones to get advice from.
Good luck


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

orchidius said:


> Hi there, As some of you might have read in the introduction section of the board, I'm considering homesteading as a long-term plan for my life. I've been doing a lot of research and reading a lot of books. John Seymour makes note of the one-acre farm and the five-acre farm in "the self-sufficient life and how to live it". His reasoning makes a lot of sense, and he also notes that having more land increases your flexibility, but not necessarily your production. While this might be true, he does leave the reader with two big questions I'm hoping you guys could shed some light on.
> 
> *1. Starting capital*
> 
> ...


 Since the climate, homesteading specific lifestyle, gardening/farming style, critter wants/needs, resources (financial and natural), are all critical to where one chooses to live? The size ranges rather dramatically. What works for us, won't work for others. 

Consider our property size... This is enough property for the two of us to do everything we want, for the most part. That said, we don't want horses or any large livestock. Those who do, will need more property to accomplish what we do with this size! Since this climate is temperate, we don't get harsh weather during the summer or winter. If so, living in a motorhome, even temporarily while we build, could present some major challenges.

I recently met a gal who lives on a few acres. She grows her own food, has no electricity, uses a composting toilet, and lives in a tent dwelling. While she has gotten away with this, that is considered recreational living, so there could be issues with her living like this permanently there. She has no running water! I know she makes and sells hats, but I don't know what else she does for money. Since she has to pay property taxes, cover her own clothing expenses, any type of medical care, etc...

You would greatly benefit from doing research and coming to some important homesteading lifestyle decisions. Then, it will be easier to ascertain how much land you need and where you move!

Everyone has their own view, based on where they live, as do I. There is no other area in this Country, I want to live more, than right here! Many HTer's feel the same way about their areas. This also refers to the property itself, including the topography. DH will be building our retirement home, utilizing the trees off our property (in part). We knew it didn't rain that much here (25" per year max), so a good well was important. Our property has natural springs and a high water table (part of it). This is a blessing to us.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

IF, you keep it small, it takes less, or no mechanized equipment. We live on 1 acre, have 8 chickens, 3 milk goats, 2 doe rabbits and 3 pigeon pairs. We feed oats that I help a farm friend produce on his land and loose hay from our meadow put up by hand. We have gravity fed water from a spring high up on the hill. A small pond and a greenhouse. We live in a small cabin, off grid using solar and a small hydro generator. We use raised beds and a small conventional garden. Sometimes less is more. More productivity on small parcels of land (intensive farming)....James


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

I can't even imagine living with such a huge crowd of people around! I feel crowded on this 8 acres and I'm selling to move to Missouri where I'm buying 38acres for $42,000. Nothing on it but the two 10x16 sheds I just bought for a total of 5k. Had a driveway put in. We will have electricity shortly and have the sheds finished inside for about $1k in materials. I'll do water catch off the roofs and put it thru a filter. (49 inches annual rainfall there). (There may be a spring on the property, not sure if it runs all yr though). I'm planning to get one of those metal carports to make into a barn for my goats. That will run, finished, less than $1500. We will use sawdust toilets for the present. (Sawmill nearby will supply all the sawdust I need for toilets and garden.) I'll be planting an orchard. Fencing will be done in sections as that is going to be expensive. The goats (I have 19) will help to clear the brush. Lots of blackberries on the place. I'm taking a few of my chickens and geese, but will get more ducks and chickens ordered asap. Plan to have raised beds for the garden. I expect I'll have to buy hay till I have a hay field cleared and mow-able. 

I started with less desirable land that sold cheap, waited several yrs till the prices went up and sold, bought another, did the same, bought another, sold for more and now moving to a larger property, more sparse population, don't plan to do it again.


ETA: Population of the county I'm moving to is 6,265 or about 12 people per square mile. I've lived where there were fewer people though. Here it is about twice the number per square mile.


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## rachelmcmurtrie (May 31, 2014)

I feel it comes down to what is of utmost importance to you. You have to have a scale of priorities. We are in a similar situation. We are just now planning our lifestyle and the first step for us after the research (which is an ongoing process) is finding the land. For us, as important it is to live a self-sustaining lifestyle, it is more important for us to stay in Colorado as we accomplish this. So for us moving is not an option which limits the land we can buy. For you if having this homestead lifestyle is more important than anything else then you should consider moving. If not then stay put and make it happen. *You can and will.* We moved from Texas where land is the cheapest in the entire country. All of my family is in Texas, but my scale of priorities is different than most others. So Colorado makes more sense in our plans. Is it easier? No way, but will we be happier? Definitely yes.

If you are deciding to stay in your country, you can do it with less than an acre. Check out [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekVAmWxbnqE[/ame] If my link does not work just google "tiny farm in the city" and click on the youtube video. This is a family that like yourself is surrounded by people, they are in a city after all. They produce *3 tons of food in 1/5th of an acre* (well the lady in the video says 1/5th at the 0:17 mark, but their website says 1/10th, so not sure if they expanded or one is a typo). That to me is mind boggling. Truly. They grow mostly vegetables, but Jwal10 says "We live on 1 acre, have 8 chickens, 3 milk goats, 2 doe rabbits and 3 pigeon pairs". So livestock is not out of the question on an acre either. An acre to me is a lot of land. You can do a lot with it. By the way that farm's website is http://urbanhomestead.org/

As for the capital. If you don't have the money, you have to rely on time. You have to either have the patience or money. The way I see it, the only people that can quit their jobs and move to a homestead are the ones who have the money to a) pay for the land, b) jump start all the things needed for their homestead, c) use the saved up money as their income till they become self-sustaining, and d) have money to fall back on if everything in the world goes wrong and nothing works. My family doesn't have the money. So we are investing time instead. My husband is going to keep working well after we buy our land. We will first clear, fence, seed, get the shelter, water set up. We project a year of doing just this. Did I mention we want to raise grass-fed pigs, chickens and goat?  After we have this all set up we're going to observe for a full cycle. Colorado gets all four seasons, and we are no farmers. Have zero experience planting, farming anything. So this experience is crucial for us. Once we have observed the plant life for a year, if we are unable to produce what our livestock will need to graze we will do it for another year and then another until we get to the point where we know what to expect and learn how to plant/harvest the right things. Then we are going to get 2-4 pigs, 2 goat and a few chickens. We are not going to breed these, just observe how they do for another year+. The reason I am telling you all this, is to say if done on a small scale like this at the start (regardless of how big your land parcel is) you can still maintain another job. If you have 200-400 pigs then yes, other than hiring farmhands you cannot be employed outside the farm. To summarize, if you don't have the money saved up or it's not saved up to the extent where you can sustain yourself till things get up off the ground, then you should keep working or find a job. Once you can finance your land or buy your land you would do so and start small, all the while working. The loan route is the way we're going since we simply don't have even close to the $20,000-$50,000 saved up that we need. Furthermore we are trying to keep the land in that range so that we can pay it off within the next 5 years. Yes if you take a loan it delays how long it will be till you're quitting your job since you need that income to insure you don't lose your land should your farm take longer to produce the money you need to make payments. That's why it's always a matter of time or money.

I feel what's most important is to not give up your dream. If you have to make concessions then do so, but don't settle for less. For instance if you have to start with less than an acre to jump start this dream then make that concession and do so. But don't settle for a larger plot of land that's not as good as a smaller plot just because that's the only one available in your price range. Some of the advice given to me was try to rent equipment, trucks, trailers to cut down your initial cost. I think if money is an issue then it is imperative to make a list of costs that are absolutely necessary, and the costs that aren't. Of course this list would only be the things you foresee, have to try to plan for the unforeseeable as well.

There will be tons of naysayers and there will be a lot more discouragement than encouragement but only you are living your life, thus only you can make it happen for yourself, no one else will. It could be as hard as getting problematic land, problematic water supply, plants and livestock that die. It could also be as easy as getting good land, water flows freely, plants thrive, and the livestock taste is out-of-this-world when butchered.


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