# Nuc vs. Package



## farmerjohn

What is the difference and what is the advatage or disadvantage of each?


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## alleyyooper

This is a row of five frame nucs. Inside you will find five frames of drawn comb which has 2 to 3 frames eggs larva and capped brood, a frame or 2 of honey and pollen, A laying queen, many workers. You have about 1/4 of a working hive for here in the north .










Also in my nucs you will find a feed chamber in the rear with a half gallon jar feeder with syrup.


This is a three pound package of bees (the small box.), the most common sold. Many ask how many bees are in a 3 pound package. I always say depends on how many were flying while the package was on the scales. But estmates run from as low as 3500 to 10000.

In the package you get, a can of syrup for them to feed on while in the package, a queen in a cage, and all the loose worker bees.










the box the queen was in.









You will get about atwo week head start with a good nuc. A nuc of bees will cost you from 20 to 50 dollars more to buy.

Once the package is installed into a new hive with new foundation it will take up to 3 weeks before the queen can lay depending on the foundation type and the feed being fed.

The nuc has that 5 frame head start when installed into a hive they will have another five frames of comb drawn in a matter of day or weeks depending on the foundation.

Newly drawn comb. the cells are not all perfect shape as many lead you to believe.










 Al


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## farmerjohn

OK. Great pics. So you say--Once the package is installed into a new hive with new foundation it will take up to 3 weeks before the queen can lay depending on the foundation type and the feed being fed.

What type of foundation and what feed is the best? I have some of the "plastic" comb base in some frames and I also have some with actual wax comb on wires. I am thinking that those will need to be replaced as most seem to be broken or damaged in some way. I am not sure though as to what to replace them with. And do you sell these nucs?


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## alleyyooper

No I said it *CAN*take up to three weeks to get a package queen where she can lay. 
In 2004 my wife won a complete hive in a raffle. It had plastic foundation, in two weeks the workers had not even started to draw out the comb on any frames. I removed 5 frames and installed 5 of drawn comb and the queen started laying. In another two weeks the remaining 5 frames of plastic had not been drawn out so I removed that too, with plans to donate it to the clubs auction.
I kept forgetting it so it lay in storage for a couple of years then I got a swarm call and was out of wax foundation or drawn comb. I grabbed that plastic stuff rubbed it all down with honey to use with that swarm.
I've had that swarm for a long time now but the plastiac never did get fully drawn out. Best they would do is 50% so I removed it, cleaned it then donated it to the clubs auction.

I use real wax foundation, don't like plastic as I feel from my findings it sets the bees back.

I do have some full plastic frames with the molded plastic foundation from a deal I did a few years back buying a retireing beekeeper out. Best use I found for that so far is to fill it with candy and setting it on a hive in the very early spring when I don't yet want brood production but also do not want the bees to starve.

Also going to expermint with one as a mold to make my own foundation out of capping wax.

Cracked wax foundation with even some largers chunks missing will get drawn out by the girls.

For building comb I like REAL BEES WAX foundation with a 1:1 sugar syrup feed, feed till they will not take it any more.

Yes I sell some Nucs locally. Don't know if I will have any to sell this year yet or not. We need to rebuild or worsce than normal winter losses back up.

 Al


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## tom j

if you have plastic that when you rub your hand on and you don't feel that it FULLY covered with wax .. go to home depot and get a 3inch foam paint roller melt some beewax and roll on some wax on them . the only way I have got them to draw it out fully . I'm going to wax foundation ..


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## blaineiac

I cut the center, left about 3/4" inch of plastic on the perimeter, and rubbed them with wax. I put them in the super every other frame with drawn comb. I couldn't tell the difference. I got some really nice comb honey. I prefer wax foundation, but don't throw the plastic away. Very useful like this, they get a starting point and fill it in nicely.


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## farmerjohn

I got 8 supers off of a guy have are plastic and half are wax comb. The other I was given is all plastic. Are the hives that are dieing out possibly on plastic comb as opposed to wax? Plastic is so bad in many ways.

I am going back to the books and studying about the wax comb replacement. 

Is the number of bees about the same between the nucs and the packages? Or is there figured in the total amount an allowance for the brood? What if one wanted a large hive to start with and they got a nuc and a package but eliminated one of the queens? Just thinking. Any advantage to that? Or a disadvantage?


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## alleyyooper

Only reason I can see a die off when the hive has plastic frames and foundation is the girls didn't fully draw it out to fill with winter food. There are thousands of bee keepers who have no trouble painting plastic with wax to get the girls to except it. Myself I don't see the labor savings over wax and wireing when you take into account the melting of wax you may have to buy, melting it then painting it. Buy your wax foundation in the early fall so you have it to work with during the winter.

Number of bees between a package and a nuc could possiably be the same. But the package still needs time for the queen to lay even if you have drawn comb. Her brood will not hatch for 28 days after she starts laying.

The nuc has the queen laying when you get the nuc, so you are 28 days ahead. You stand a better chance of getting a honey crop the first year with a nuc and still have them store enough for winter.

Why would you want to spend all that money to combine a nuc and a package?
Just take a nuc install a pollen patty and feed syrup till all the comb is drawn and they won't take the syrup any longer.

 Al


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## tom j

this is the reason I like a site with keepers that have had hives and been there done that .( was going to say old beekeeps but some are young age wise ) and are willing to share .. and not like some that act like they are sharing but think its funny to tell something that they know will not work .


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## farmerjohn

Amen to that tom j. I am learning. In the large scheme of things, I know very little. Willing and eager to learn. Definately appreciate anyone who is willing to teach. 

So Alleyyooper, In the one pic you have some small blue boxes of nucs. How did these come about? Did you start them from a swarm or did you split a hive or raise your own queens and steal workers from another hive to start? Or a little of all? Very interesting. So could a person just "raise nucs" like yours to sell? I imagine when those 5 frames become full then you must move them to a full sized hive? 

I really like the pic you have of the comb and showing that the comb was not in perfect proportions. I had always been told the comb cell was always perfect in shape. I can see that my bees are also smaller in size to yours.


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## alleyyooper

I had wanted to start raising my own queens. Then a bee keeper who had been coming to my rescue when I yelled passed away. Two things I got from his estate was 3 nuc boxes with a feed chamber and a Cell Punch for the cooper method of queen rearing and a instruction book on how to use it.
The next spring as soon as I saw drone cells in a hive I went to my best hive and removed a frame that had the right age larva in them (1 to 3 days old), little tiny things laying in a c shape in a milky looking bath. Got my rail ready and a can of hot wax. Punched out 3 cells and hot waxed them to the rail. I took 2 frames of honey and 3 frames of capped brood with some hatching as I took them and put them in a nuc box. Nearly two weeks latter I had 3 capped queen cells ready.
I made up 2 more nucs and put one cell in each. I got two good queens from the three. One hatched but may have gotten ate or lost on the matting flight.
Once those queens were laying I made up 3 more but I started putting two cells to a nuc. It has worked very well for me todate and my old eyes don't have to strain to do a graft with a grafting spoon.

Splits are done a lot different by me. I go to one of my super hives I had fed pollen patties to in the fall and put syrup on as soon as it warmed up to a adverage day temp of 40F.

I take a deep with me to the hive in question. I remove the top cover and turn it upside down with a shim setting in it. I remove one frame at a time from the top box looking for the queen. If I find her and I also find frames of brood I'll catch her in my queen catcher and place her in the bottom box.
then I install my double screen splitting board then set the second hive above it with the entrance of the double screen board faceing the oppsite way.

This is set up for picture taking. In real life there is one box on the bottom and one more on top of the double screen.










Once you have that done you can install a boughten queen in a cage in the top box, You can install a queen you raised in the top box, or youcan install a queen cell in the top box.

I don't buy queens any more. I raise them.
A SMR carnie daughter.










A New world carnie daughter.










And a daughter from one of my removal queens.










 Al


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## farmerjohn

Wonderful pics! What camera are you using?

What is an SMR carnie queen?

So if you have this screensplitter in place and another brood box, when do you remove that box? That is the start of a new hive right? And why in the opposite direction? 

Of all things it is snowing here--again!! Was going to go check hives but guess it will wait until tomorrow. It is suppose to be around 53 degrees on Sunday here.


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## tom j

OK AL , now you done it .. Now I want the plans for your double screen splitting board . I will have to talk one of the kids into making me a few ( I never just have one made of any thing for the hive ) sure wish I got along with wood . cause I will be spitting the one this spring . and never did like the way others do it .. so now you can teach this dog your trick .


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## alleyyooper

Cameras/ Most of the bee keeping pictures I have showen were taken with a Kodak DX 3600 we bought about 1999. A bunch of the flower pictures we took with a Kodak DX 6490 we bought about 2004?5. The recent wild life pictures were taken with a Kodak Z812IS.

The 3600 is in the truck at all times, the 6490 is Kares camera what she now takes most of the family pictures with and others when I am in the UPPER or at the daughters. The Z812IS is my camera we bought in 2008 when I had returned from a trip to the UPPER and was complaining about not having a zoom.

SMR Carnolian queen, we jokeing call a slightly mite resistance queen. Do remember what the SMR really ment it has been so long ago since we bought them.
But they have been the best queens we had at the early stages and have ended up being out breeding stock by about 60/40.

The split That we made will stay on top of the parent hive till the new queen is laying a good patteren, has enough workers to keep the hive warm if a cold snap hits. The night time temps are staying at 45F or above with a good laying pattern and enough workers to stay warm.

The reverse entrance is so the nurse bees that make up the top split will orentate to it rather than fly back to the bottom hives entrance.

Here you go Tom. Some build them a bit taller so they can have a slot on the
bottom part. They will slide a thin sheet in there tomask the scents from the queen below. It's called a cloak board and mostly used if you are raising a queen in the split, which I never did. I would rather buy a queen or install one I had raised my self already.










The bottom sizes are nearly like the top ones. the bottom rails that set on the bottom hive are 19 7/8 inches long. 16 1/4 inches wide with no entrance for the bottom box.
Tom I knew one of the sizes was wrong on the picture. Had a elder moment and kept studying the picture but finally got it. *The landing board is 2 1/2 wide and 16 1/4 wide. *Rained all night Friday night and Saturday morning. Started snowing about Noon Saturday with falling temps. We have about 2 1/2 inches of snow that stuck on the cement and old snow. Is 22F out side right now with a wind chill of 11F. Nothing warmer than 37F in the forecast for the full week coming up.

 Al


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## tom j

Al , is there only one piece of screen ??? It just keeps the girls from getting together , right ??? 
Sounds like the weather is about the same as here ,, 30 33 temps and a few girls are flying , and they must be cleaning house cause theres a lot just off the door step .. COME ON APRIL 9 !!!!!! thats when my girls come home !!!!!


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## alleyyooper

Tom there are 2 pices of 1/8 inch hard wear colth. One on the bottom side and the other under the rails the top hive sets on.

Thought I would show the pictures of the plastic foundation Kare won in the hive raffle. It is Dadant stuff.

This stuff had been a start up colony for two weeks with out any thing having been done to it. These pictures are of the 4 frames that had been given to a swarm that had started drawing after a honey rub down and 45 days of syrup.




























 Al


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## LittleRedHen

wow.... i am in the planning stages of bees and i am fascinated by this thread


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## farmerjohn

Your plastic frames are white and mine yellow in color. Will the bees react the same no matter what color? Also so that time would not be wasted would it be better to go ahead and either melt wax and paint the frames or "did you say rub honey on it" to get the bees to draw comb faster?


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## alleyyooper

If all I had was plastic frames I would do both. Melt wax use a foam brush and paint the foundation with wax, then If I had my own honey I would rub it on the frames too.
Suryp mixed thick will aslo work.

 Al


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