# Using Copper Sulfate instead of Boluses?



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Would you please post here if you use Copper Sulfate instead of boluses? I printed out the page of info from the U-Say Ranch website that is referenced in several threads, but I'd like to know if anyone is actually doing it this way.


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## full sun (Aug 6, 2005)

I use copper sulfate. I would prefer to bolus, because you do it and then you don't have to think about it again for months. But it is difficult to do. SO I have been drenching with the copper sulfate, water and some syrup. I have one goat who refuses any type of food with a copper top dress. So I have to force it. >sigh< It's a pain to do every week, but it has to be done! I have tried to administer the copper rods that are in the bolus as a drench, but it didn't work. I put the rods in syrup and a little water, but the rods wouldn't go down the drenching tube. :shrug: Next, I will attempt to put the rods in marshmallow and hope that she swallows it whole. 

But anyway, the copper sulfate does work. Good luck!

Jennifer


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## Jillis (Sep 11, 2005)

I use copper sulfate powder. I top dress their grain and minerals with enough to give each goat about 1/7 of a tsp. a day, give or take. My goats do just fine with this.


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## dezeeuwgoats (Jan 12, 2006)

I mix copper sulfate in with their Sweetlix Magnamilk Caprine mineral. I also bolus with Copasure the goats who still show signs of deficiency.

Niki


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## hornless (Jan 23, 2007)

I use sulfate. It is So much easier than bolus, and my sheep can stay with goats that way...


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## ONThorsegirl (Apr 2, 2005)

Where do you guys get this copper? Any type I need to give my doe some of what ever I can get ahold of but where do you get it? any brand names? Anything you can give?

Melissa


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## full sun (Aug 6, 2005)

I can't remember if mine came from jeffers or hoeggers....

The dosage is 1 teaspoon per head per week.

Jennifer


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

There is no dosage for copper sulfate. Please read the information on saanendoah.com she did extensive studies and research on real live goats with copper liver biopsy proof, why blood testing does not work, why copper sulfate will not work and can actually do harm and why you have to use copper oxide boluses. 

Add copper sulfate to your water it will keep alge down, but make sure you know less is more, adding alot and you can harm your does rumen, which in turn decreases her immune levels...all when what you are trying to do is the opposite. Please be careful where you get information from....are they testing, is this information applicable for your area, for your type of livestock, where did they get their information from. Vicki


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## Jillis (Sep 11, 2005)

Hi Vicki! Looks like we are both up late tonight! 

I have so much respect for your knowledge and experience---I would turn to you for advice and guidance before anyone else I know, I'm telling the truth. 

But when I started giving my girls the copper sulfate, all the health problems and hair problems and cocci problems I was having with my herd gradually VANISHED. Within weeks. I had read about it in Pat Coleby's "Natural Goat Care" and she had cited some studies done on the use of it. Of course, I make sure my goats get a good mineral mix and kelp powder as well as BOSS---so I feel certain that the other minerals necessary for absorption of copper are present in thier diet. 

I know that you have to sift through Coleby's book, not all of it is necessarily to be taken as goat gospel. But the copper sulfate, in my admittedly anecdotal and extremely limited experience, really caused the turn around for my herd. They were from an extremely deficient herd. My other goats that did not come from the dairy did not have the difficulties the ones from the dairy had. 

I post this in deep humbleness, because I know you really have a tremendous amount of experience and knowledge.


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## Jillis (Sep 11, 2005)

BTW, I don't add the copper sulfate to my goat's water. I feed it through with their ration. I don't have a lot of goats so I can observe whether or not everyone is getting about the same amount of ration---they usually do. Before this, when I started using it, I just put 1/7 of a tsp. on each goat's tongue daily. They have to swallow it as the powder sticks to their mouths and tongues.


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## full sun (Aug 6, 2005)

Vicki--Neat website, thanks for suggesting it. I also got my copper supplement info from Natural Goat Care by Pat Coleby. I will continue my experimentation with how to get the bolus down the throat. Unfortunately, the 2 copper deficient goats that I have are NDs and their mouths are tiny... In the meantime, I will continue the copper sulfate. It does make a difference, I can see it in their coat. So it is being absorbed....

Jennifer


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## moonspinner (Jul 2, 2002)

Jillis, what was the nature of your health problems that cleared w/ the copper sulfate? I find this very interesting. So many breeders I've talked to say they never had so many copper problems as this year. I've never had bare noses like this and possibly a few other problems might be related to deficiency.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

the most obvious symptom that can be seen with adding copper, is the color of the coat. it gets much more vibrant and is shinning. i think one reason is that the parasite load is getting minimized.


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## Jillis (Sep 11, 2005)

moonspinner said:


> Jillis, what was the nature of your health problems that cleared w/ the copper sulfate? I find this very interesting. So many breeders I've talked to say they never had so many copper problems as this year. I've never had bare noses like this and possibly a few other problems might be related to deficiency.



I had bought 10 dairy babies from a very large goat dairy hereabouts. They came from beautiful stock, some purebred, some grade, nice milking stock, but apparently very deficient in mineral nutrition. 

They came to me with severe and persistant coccidiosis, that I treated again and again and kept on coming back. It didn't help that as a newbie, I used a grain and mineral that was labeled for both sheep and goats. Very low in copper. The goats also got pnuemonia---twice! Then they started getting very funky fur---one actually got a very motheaten look to her. The spectacle look---like pale eyeglasses around the eyes, bald noses and ear tips with no evidence of parasites on the skin...
Also, they were not what we like to call "thrifty", they weren't growing out well. It was the motheaten kid that got me online looking for answers. 
When I finally got them established on a good goat grain mix and the Sweetlix minerals for goats, I did see improvement. But it wasn't until I gave them the copper sulfate daily, 1/7 of a tsp. as per Pat Coleby, that the real turnaround began. 
I have not had one single case of cocci that needed to be treated, the hair is luxuriant, and many of them darkened considerably! Some developed black markings that hadn't had any before. I had one pure white goat that I have since sold who actually developed two black markings on her face, as did my little gold Nigie. The black goats had been getting reddish in their coloring, and this reveresed---they darkened back to their beautiful shiny black again. 
My goats are well-grown, have not been sick AT ALL this year, and almost everyone who sees them is impressed with their health, beauty, and calm personalities. Well, calm for goats, that is! I know three separate goat owners who have siblings to some of my goats from the same birth, and in each case, my goats are larger, healthier and in better condition than their siblings. 

The copper is also very important for reproductive issues, as I understand it. I have a friend who is new to goats, who is raising Nigerian Dwarfs. She has not supplemented copper, and this year she had more malpresented and stillborn babies than you can imagine! I told her to supplement the copper as some of her goats have the spectacle look to them. Frankly, most of our goat herds are so deficient in this important mineral that there is no way 1/7 of a tsp. daily could hurt them. Goats apparently have a much higher need for and tolerance of copper than previously realized. I have muddled through some of those scholarly treatises on this subject, the ones with the million dollar words, and it only confirms that we need to supplement copper in conjunction with the correct proportion of other minerals in an absorbable form for optimal goat health. Either the copper sulfate powder or the copper oxide boluses. 

Apparently, parasites do not like to be hosted by a goat with good copper levels either, another plus!

The dark goats, just like dark people, seem to need a LOT more copper than fair goats (or fair people). Indeed, when I hold some out in my hand, the dark goats keep on gobbling while the light goats are not interested. 

I sure hate to disagree in any way with Vicki, I respect her knowledge very highly! But in this one particular, I am very happy with the results of the copper sulfate powder.


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## Sweet Goats (Nov 30, 2005)

OK, I am confused. Where do you get it?


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## Milk n' Honey (Aug 14, 2005)

I would be interested to know how long you all have been using the Copper Sulfate powder on your goats. As Vicki mentioned, it can actually do harm and it may not be safe to for humans to handle either. I think you should consider reading the article, at the link below, for more understanding on this substance. It isn't just copper. I admit I don't know much about it at all and I haven't used the stuff but I have to think there would be a safer way. An easier way than the boluses would be nice. BTW, the reason that your parasite load is less is because you are giving daily doses of pesticide to your goat. This is the same stuff used to spray agricultural fields and orchards. I wash my fruit with soapy water before eating it...LOL. Anyway, if someone felt they had to used it, I would think short term. In a couple more years of using it, the herd turn-around could go the other way. I don't mean to be a downer but how much do we know about the long-term effects on our herds with this stuff and are we willing to risk cutting our herd's lifespan in half possibly? Hmmmmm......maybe the boluses would be better. Read the article and see what you think.

http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/coppersu.htm


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## BlueHeronFarm (Feb 9, 2007)

I'm a big fan of "do whatever works for you" but will weigh in that the bolusing was not that hard to do. We did it for the first time about a month ago - 7 goats - and only two of them took us more than three tries. (Crafty little gals...)

For me, personally, the bolus twice a year is way easier than any daily top-dressing, or whatever. ...just my 2 cents - very happy with our first bolusing. Coats look great, milk production is getting better.


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## Milk n' Honey (Aug 14, 2005)

Only twice a year? That's it? Geez, I can handle that. I thought it would be weekly or something. Are those calf boluses or what?


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## BlueHeronFarm (Feb 9, 2007)

We buy the calf boluses, but break them down and repackage to appropraite doses.
Here is where we got our info - it was thoughtfully shared by DocM - another HT member.

http://www.u-sayranch.com/goats/copper.html


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

If you really want to use it?

Pool supply houses. Rural King has it for pool use.

Easy to get.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

I use it in my water tubs to keep algae down during the summer. I buy the stuff they use in loose minerals. The feedstore sells it by the lb.


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## Jillis (Sep 11, 2005)

Milk n' Honey said:


> I would be interested to know how long you all have been using the Copper Sulfate powder on your goats. As Vicki mentioned, it can actually do harm and it may not be safe to for humans to handle either. I think you should consider reading the article, at the link below, for more understanding on this substance. It isn't just copper. I admit I don't know much about it at all and I haven't used the stuff but I have to think there would be a safer way. An easier way than the boluses would be nice. BTW, the reason that your parasite load is less is because you are giving daily doses of pesticide to your goat. This is the same stuff used to spray agricultural fields and orchards. I wash my fruit with soapy water before eating it...LOL. Anyway, if someone felt they had to used it, I would think short term. In a couple more years of using it, the herd turn-around could go the other way. I don't mean to be a downer but how much do we know about the long-term effects on our herds with this stuff and are we willing to risk cutting our herd's lifespan in half possibly? Hmmmmm......maybe the boluses would be better. Read the article and see what you think.
> 
> http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/coppersu.htm


Thank you for the link, Milk n' Honey...to answer your question, I have been using copper sulfate for over 1 year, admittedly not very long. 

Many substances we use for both ourselves and our animals can be toxic at much higher doses than those given. Yet as trace minerals they are necessary to the health and functioning of our bodies. Iron is a very good example of this prinicipal. At too high a level it causes poisoning and death. A chronically high level of iron intake and retention can cause some very unpleasant health issues. But you would not dream of telling people not to have any iron intake at all, it is necessary to the health and functioning of your body. 

FWIW, strictly speaking copper sulfate is not a pesiticide, it is used as a fungicide. It is listed under that heading (pesticide) in the article because of EPA rules. I was for years a Certified Pesticide Applicator, and have had a lot of training and inservices on this subject. I certainly am not recommending the sulfate powder over the oxide boluses. Whatever anyone wants to use should be fine, as long as they are supplementing the copper in some form or another. And yes, the fact that a goat with GOOD levels of copper in their bodies are not good hosts to parasites is just one of the good reasons to supplement with it. That is one of the good reasons people bolus with copper oxide rods, too, so that is not an argument against using copper sulfate powder. 

I happen to use the powder because I was given a large amount of it at the feed store from a bag that had ripped. If I had heard of the boluses before I went looking for the sulfate, I probably would have used those. I responded to the question asked by the original poster, with the fact that yes, I use the sulfate powder and the results of that use. IMO, giving the powder will not result in any greater accumulation than the rods, in fact, it may be harder to calculate the exact release of copper from the rods once they are ingested. I was not, and still am not trying to engage in a debate touting the sulfate over the oxide---I just don't agree that the sulfate is detrimental or useless. I have found it to be one of the best things I've done for my goats. 

There are MANY people who have been using the powder on their goats for years with satisfactory results. It is probably a fact that at the levels I give it, the goat's lifetime will have expired before any detriment can occur. 

I would like to comment, that since I started this regimen, my goat herd has been extremely healthy. In every way. But for the past year, almost all of your posts have been about bad goat health issues you were having that many felt were the results of herd management issues. To the point that you got insulted and upset when a few people mentioned what they were thinking. 

So while I might hesitate to disagree with Vicki, or Emily, or susanne, knowing they have a great track record of keeping goats healthy and well, I would not hesitate to ask you to rethink your post and the real implications of the information presented in your link. Giving large amounts of many substances, which was the point of the link, can be very harmful, while therapuetic doses are just that, therapuetic. If you really read and analyse the data presented, you will realize this for yourself. 

I'll probably use the sulfate powder until I run out, then switch to the boluses. If they don't perform for me the way the powder has, then I will switch back, convenient to use or not. 

One concern I have with the boluses is that they are calculated on the weight of the goat. What about goats that are still gaining and growing? Is there a provision made to calculate the dosing on that? That is a question that needs to be answered as well. And can you really predict the rate at which they release the copper? With the powder, I am fairly sure of the dosing my goats are receiving. The boluses themselves are usually listed as anithelmics---a "pesticide" for parasites...not only as supplements for the complete health of the goat. Google the copper oxide boluses and there are tons of articles on their usage as an internal "pesticide" for worms! Especially Barberpole worms. 

In addition, copper sulfate is often the form of copper added to mineral mixes and animal feeds. It is considered to be very assimilable. It is also found in milk replacers for many kinds of animals. The article in your link is a good article, but it deals mainly with the detrimental effects of longterm exposure to large amounts of copper sulfate, not with the supplementation of trace amounts in feeds and mineral mixes. 

Well, that was a lot more than 2 cents worth, wasn't it?


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## BlueHeronFarm (Feb 9, 2007)

Great post, Jillis 
I forgot to add to mine that the anthemintic angle was a HUGE factor in our deciding to bolus. We are in year-round haemonchus territory and were really interested in the idea of "natural" options/enhancements to our worming plan. Hubby is floating poo and counting eggs as I type this. Goats have done funny things to us.


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## gccrook (Nov 21, 2003)

Seems like I just read that copper sulfate is used to treat foot rot or hoof scald. Anyone use it this way?


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

great post jillis  
i do give copper bolus to my goats and on the plus side is i only have to do it every five month. the down side is the application  they are supposed not to chew the bolus or it would not be affective. but what happens to the rods they are swallowing? how safe is it really to give a second and a third bolus until you get it down the way it should be? how often do injuries occur because the gun is placed too deep? 
i have not found these answers yet and sometimes think i should try the copper sulfate  maybe some day


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

gccrook said:


> Seems like I just read that copper sulfate is used to treat foot rot or hoof scald. Anyone use it this way?


Absolutely. I mix it with enough water to make a thick dip and dip the affected hoof it it once a day till its well-healed. Twice a day for a really bad case. It works very well.


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## Jillis (Sep 11, 2005)

BlueHeronFarm said:


> Great post, Jillis
> Hubby is floating poo and counting eggs as I type this. Goats have done funny things to us.


Tell me about it! ROFL!


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## gccrook (Nov 21, 2003)

ozark_jewels said:


> Absolutely. I mix it with enough water to make a thick dip and dip the affected hoof it it once a day till its well-healed. Twice a day for a really bad case. It works very well.


Thanks. I have one that needs to be treated, but cannot get any until tomorrow. I went ahead and cleaned it well, and applied some antibiotic to it, but wanted to treat with copper sulfate. We have had som much wet weather here, that I cannot seem to get a break long enough for things to dry out good. It had just dried up pretty good yesterday, and this morning more rain.


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## full sun (Aug 6, 2005)

Thank you Jillis, very well said.

Susanne, it is my understanding that if the rods are chewed, they no longer have the weight to fall into the stomach, so they will be flushed through. 

I just want you to know that I successfully bolused with a mashmallow. Well, I actually cut a big marshmallow in half, pulled it apart a bit, and put the dosage of rods in the sticky part. Then I rolled it up and offered it to the goats. Nobody wanted it.  So I grabbed the yearling wether first and shoved it down his throat and he quickly swallowed it. That was much better than the 3 attempts that failed with the capsule! 

FWIW, Blue Heron Farm, the first couple times we bolused, it went very well. I don't mean to sound discouraging, but I think they wise up and then offer more of a struggle. :shrug: Hopefully not...

Jennifer


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## Milk n' Honey (Aug 14, 2005)

Jillis, 

This isn't a competition. I'm glad your goats are doing well but why do you try to humiliate me? My post was meant to be helpful and also to gather information from some of the folks about their experiences with this stuff and was certainly NOT directed at you personally, as you seem to have taken it. Thank you for the portion of your post in which you answered my questions and the detail about the sulfate. I admitted to not knowing much about it. I ran across that article and it is a good article. There are risks to handling certain substances and I'm not convinved that handling the sulfate powder is risk-free to humans. Many things like that do take a while to cause problems and I am always cautious with anything I think could be a cancer risk. I've seen too much cancer. This is how I feel and I don't need an approval and neither do you as to how you feel about it. However, treating me as though I have no right to post because I've had problems with my goats is a bit rude and hurtful to be honest. My goats are very healthy and doing quite well, BTW. I realize you didn't ask but I thought by some chance, you might care. You don't have any idea what that time was like for my husband and I. I will say though, we learned a lot and now have a lot of information to help others. If anything good could come from our first year, we can help others now. Vicki was a huge help to me and I greatly respect her opinion. She's awfully sharp when it comes to goats (probably other things as well...lol). I'm am truthfully sorry if I came across offensive in any way. I know things can be misunderstood when you are reading someone's post. I was only trying to be helpful and add to the thread. 

If I can figure out how to do the boluses, I'm going to try that. 

BlueHeronFarm....thank you for the link....I'll check that out for sure.


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## Jillis (Sep 11, 2005)

Milk n' Honey, I am very sorry you are so offended with my post. I apologise for offending you. I certainly don't see where you would say I that I have treated you as if you had no right to post, just stated that would not hesitate to ask you to rethink your post a little more analytically. Quite a leap there, I do think you are overreacting to my remarks a tad... I also do not think it is a "competition" either.  

My main goal in posting what I posted was to share my information and understanding of copper sulfate, as opposed to what appeared to me to be a misunderstanding of it in your post. 

Again, I apologise for offending you. 

And I am very happy your goats are prospering.


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## Milk n' Honey (Aug 14, 2005)

You did sort of insinuate (m/s?) that I couldn't know what I'm talking about since I have problems with my goats and that you must be right since yours are prospering. That is why I said it isn't a competition and that you maybe didn't think I should be posting info unless my goats are doing really well on my program. Look, I am open to as much info on the subject as I can get. It seems there isn't a lot out there. I probably won't use the stuff b/c I'm a scaredy cat about handling substances that I don't know much about. I hope to try the boluses as soon as I can order some. Thanks for the info and sorry if I misunderstood your attitude towards me. Take care and hope everything continues to go well for you also.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

full sun said:


> Susanne, it is my understanding that if the rods are chewed, they no longer have the weight to fall into the stomach, so they will be flushed through.
> 
> I just want you to know that I successfully bolused with a mashmallow. Well, I actually cut a big marshmallow in half, pulled it apart a bit, and put the dosage of rods in the sticky part. Then I rolled it up and offered it to the goats. Nobody wanted it.  So I grabbed the yearling wether first and shoved it down his throat and he quickly swallowed it. That was much better than the 3 attempts that failed with the capsule!
> 
> ...



thank you jennifer. i will try the marshmallow next time


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Susanne, it is my understanding that if the rods are chewed, they no longer have the weight to fall into the stomach, so they will be flushed through. 
......................................................................

If the rods are chewed they will still go into the rumen, where they lodge and are slowly absorbed by the body, but you will loose the longer rods, and with all the rods the same smaller size, it absorbs more quickly, with perhaps too many the same size you could have an overdose early, with none lasting the 5 months you were expecting.

What you don't want to do is to dose it with water in a syringe...the girls don't drink water into their rumens. Perhaps the next time you go to your vet you could ask for a balling gun demo, it's quite easy once you know how. You do have to control the head on the milkstand and a half nelson  works for me. vicki


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> If the rods are chewed they will still go into the rumen, where they lodge and are slowly absorbed by the body, but you will loose the longer rods, and with all the rods the same smaller size, it absorbs more quickly, with perhaps too many the same size you could have an overdose early, with none lasting the 5 months you were expecting.
> 
> vicki


thanks. this is exactly what i thought.


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## Jcran (Jan 4, 2006)

More bolus questions....the neighbor bought the copasure and I went over and we read through the article that mentioned one gram for every twenty two pounds o' goat. I used the gelatin capsules I had in my herb drawer and got about 2.5 grams in each capsule, which works out to about 1 capsule for 55 pound of goat. Will THAT be heavy enough to get to the stomache if I get it down the ole goat throat?


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

joan i use the same size capsule and it works here  i fill 2 gram in one capsule.
in order to get the small capsule to hold in the gun i put an empty capsule next to it. i'm sure there are some other solutions for that


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## Jcran (Jan 4, 2006)

Can't I just use a bolus gun instead of a drenching gun with the rubber doohicky? I have a DOG bolus gun that will hold the smaller capsule easily; I will then SHOVE it halfway down their throat if I've got to avoid those ding dang sharp teeth (my mangled hands are proof that goat bites are far worse than dogs LOL).


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## Gailann Schrader (May 10, 2002)

my goat/feed guy told me to put pnut butter in the end of the bolus gun to hold the bolus.

Yeah, those teeth ARE shark teeth, aren't they?


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

peanut butter is a great idea. maybe they will swallow the bolus better


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## Jim S. (Apr 22, 2004)

dezeeuwgoats said:


> I mix copper sulfate in with their Sweetlix Magnamilk Caprine mineral. I also bolus with Copasure the goats who still show signs of deficiency.
> 
> Niki


This whole argument about whether CS is bad for goats or not is very interesting, since every mineral tag I have seen so far lists copper sulfate as the source of the copper in the minerals, including the Sweetlix mentioned above. That goes for cow minerals and red salt blocks, etc. 

Copper sulfate is the most common source for mineral copper there is. You can even use it with water, a couple electrodes and a car battery to copper plate stuff if you want.

You can get it in 5-gallon pails as a sewer pipe root preventer, or in quarts as RootTone. Or as pool supplies, as has been mentioned. Lowe's, Home Depot, and Ace Hardware are among the stores where you can buy it.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Yes it is in every mineral around, in very specific doses. Like I said before do you want the water to be light blue, medium blue or dark blue...when is enough too much? When does the ammonia it causes in the rumen start hurting the doe? I bolus because I know that it specifically at this amount given to this size doe, at this time, keeps the blood level up along with the mineral I use, because copper liver biopsy on old deceased does, or a goat I choose to put down, was ran and showed it was working. My goats look great too...problem is my goats can look great and have huge worm burdens, I am not real keen on believing my eyes all the time, especially when it hurts production eventually. Vicki


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## Jillis (Sep 11, 2005)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> My goats look great too...problem is my goats can look great and have huge worm burdens, I am not real keen on believing my eyes all the time, especially when it hurts production eventually. Vicki


I'm sure the boluses work well, Vicki. I know you must do fecals as well? The fecals are how I monitor my goats as far as worms and cocci. Of course, I am not monitoring production at this point, as I am only now beginning to milk the few does that have kidded. I get varying amounts from each one, my Nubian has outstanding production, but she is a pain to milk! My other two are still producing colostrum. I deliberately bred them to fgive birth very staggered so I would have time to learn how to do the kidding and milking and all that goes along with it. 

I got a quart and half of colostrum from the Nubian while she was nursing triplets, Day One! 

I think I just drifted off-topic here, sorry!

BTW, why would the "ammonia it causes in the rumen" be produced by copper sulfate and not copper oxide? Anyone know? As I mentioned before, I don't put the copper sulfate in the water, I dose either individually or by mixing the correct amount per goat into the mineral mix I feed through daily on their grain ration. I have few enough goats that I can observe that everyone is getting their portion. I understand that mixing it with water would produce very inaccurate dosing, also would make the water taste very nasty, I am sure!


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## Jcran (Jan 4, 2006)

Last night I bolused with the copasure...using the small pet pill bolus, I just loaded three capsules in a row down the chute and let 'er rip! Worked the first time on three out of four of my big does. Lotte sounded like she maybe chewed on one, but she was the one I was least worried about. I'll be monitoring over the next few weeks. How long should it be afore I notice improvements?


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## BlueHeronFarm (Feb 9, 2007)

We started noticing difference in coat texture and color in about 3 weeks.


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## Jim S. (Apr 22, 2004)

Most studies I have seen say that goats *need* 8-10 ppm copper intake as part of the diet daily (except Saanendoah/University of California, which says 10-20 ppm). The Salt Institute says goats "normally have 0.8 to 1.2 ppm copper in the serum." However, the research also says a requirement has not been established, but that goats can *tolerate* copper levels way higher than that.

The Sweetlix I use runs between 1,750 ppm-1,810 ppm...same as the Sweetlix Caprine Magnum-Milk. That's a lot more than enough. When I pour the stuff out, I taste copper on my tongue just by breathing. I check that it is being consumed (easy with PVC feeders). With the molasses Sweetlix mixes in, the goats lap it up pretty good.

:shrug: I just can't get that breathless about the copper deal. I guess it could be necessary to manipulate mineral supplements as the diet becomes more and more unnatural (heavier on the grains). I wouldn't know about unnatural diets; I don't farm like that.

The most positive research that I have read about copper boluses says that their use helps to control worms. That would be a benefit of a high copper dose, delivered by bolus at an unnaturally higher rate than the goat would normally consume by free choice.

Or worm and egg reduction could be done in a number of other ways, like rotational grazing. :shrug:


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

jim the water quality a lot of goat owners have to deal with can be the source of deficiency even though copper it is sufficiently supplemented in the mineral.
another reason might be that copper sulfate is not absorbed very well but copper oxides are? 

i do have lots of iron in the water. even though i use a filter i still see deficiency.
i guess you can be a happy guy that you can raise your goats with no problems.
how old are your animals getting on average?


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## Jim S. (Apr 22, 2004)

susanne, the oldest is a pet wether who is 14 now, the youngest is 1 1/2 months. Most of the herd is in the 4-5 range on average. No adult does are younger than 3, the buck is 2. I don't keep goats past around 9-10 as a general rule. It's proven to be uneconomical for me to do so. We have some older does getting ready to go. We keep Simon the pet wether because he is the son of one of the original goats. He'll die here.

Our water is very soft. My mom used to comment on it when they would visit from Illinois. You just touch a soap bar to your wet hands, and you have a ton of suds.

I haven't seen anything that says sulfate doesn't absorb in goats as well as oxides. Could be. Dale Bumpers Small Farmers Research Center studies in sheep, which are more prone to toxicity, indicate that copper sulfate is more readily absorbed than copper oxide, so sulfate can lead faster to toxicity in sheep.

Are you saying that the iron in the water could be blocking uptake of the copper sulfate? I know sulphur water does that, but I didn't know iron water would. Most mineral supplements have iron in them, as well.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

yes jim, too much iron, zinc, molybdenum and sulfur can interfere with the absorption of copper. 
also heavy parasite load can interfere with the copper absorption.


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

I use the copper sulfate via Pat Coleby and it is working great for me...


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

We just started using Mineral Max EAD Paste. 



> A Supplemental, Nutritional, Amino Acid Chelated Source Of Zinc, Manganese, Selenium, Copper & Mineral Complexes With Vitamins E, A, And D In An Easily Dispensible Paste.


*Formulated To Contain:*

Vitamin A, Not less than 4,400,000 IU/kg

Vitamin D, Not less than 220,000 IU/kg

Vitamin E, Not less than 33,000 IU/kg

Magnesium, Not less than 0.95%

Potassium, Not less than 0.95%

Zinc, Not less than 6,100 ppm

Manganese, Not less than 2,500 ppm

*Copper, Not less than 6,100 ppm*

Cobalt, Not less than 400 ppm

*Selenium, Not less than 60 ppm*


I just put the dose on a small piece of whole wheat bread and give it to each goat. For those that don't want the bread its not that hard to use a syringe and squirt it in their mouths.


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## Idahoe (Feb 4, 2006)

I know this is an old thread but I'm glad it popped up.

I copper bolused with Copasure almost a month ago, and am noticing HUGE differences in the goat's coats.

I have very sleek coated Nubians, and they are rapidly now becoming darker and sleeker than they were when they were bought in April. One doe was almost white on her sides, I thought it was her normal coloration -- WRONG! She is not a honey color, she is sable. And in three weeks, went from 3/4 gallon a day to one and a half. She also had chronic, recurring staph dermatitis on her udder. I bought bottle after bottle of chlorhexadine and it only kept it from spreading. That has been gone from about two weeks after the bolus. 

I live in western WA and we are very copper poor with hard water. I am a firm believer . . . just wish I'd taken before and after pics.

This is after I am pretty sure about half the boluses were chewed, too. I plan to rebolus at four months with a dog piller to get past those shark teeth . . .


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Great thread. 

Wags, where did you get the Mineral Max EAD Paste? 

Paul


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Old thread.......would just like to specify something I said in my first post.
I *do* use a bit of copper sulfate to keep the algae down in my water tubs. I have no running water, so its not as easy for me to dump and scrub my tubs often as it is for most folks. 
I do *not* use it as a copper supplement for the goats. The amount they get in their water is *minute* to say the least.

We have high iron water which binds copper absorbtion and I have noticed way more copper issues since we moved to this area(the only thing that has changed is their water source and of course their browse/pastures are grown in this soil now).

I have bolused my herd with copasure cattle boluses for several years now, and the change in coat, health, etc was dramatic.
I do not use the rubber thingy and water to bolus, just a regular ol' cheapy plastic bolus gun. Its very easy once you get the hang of it.

Copper issues on my place have nothing to do with "unnatural" farming practices(feeding lots of grain, etc). My does browse, graze and eat hay. They get a small amount of grain as milking does and kids.

As our soils are more and more depleted from over-use and simply not putting back what the farmer is taking out(hayfields(most of us buy hay rather than grow it), grain fields and so on), the products raised there will have less mineral and nutritional value. We have to contend with this in our own pasture/browse as well. Combine that with the fact that some areas were already deficient, and that some water/soil contains high iron and/or sulfur, and some of us *will* be better off copper bolusing.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

LaManchaPaul said:


> Great thread.
> 
> Wags, where did you get the Mineral Max EAD Paste?
> 
> Paul


Some farm & ranch stores carry it and you can also get it on-line at a variety of places including American Livestock.

Same company also makes Mineral Max Ultra Which has all of the same minerals plus the same amount of probiotic levels per dose as BP-1.



We have only been using the Mineral Max EAD Paste for a few weeks, so they have only had two doses at this point. I will start giving it on a monthly basis from here on out unless I see signs that they might need more. I was already giving my herd selenium paste, but this takes care of that too. It's not cheap, and the Ultra is even more expensive, so I don't think I'll try that just yet. I had been giving them loose minerals with copper in it - but they were pretty much refusing to touch it. This way I know how much they are getting.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

And yes, if for no other reason, I would keep copper sulfate on hand for the very rare occaision that a doe gets foot rot in the winter wet months. Clears it up faster than any of the other, more expensive treatments I have tried in the past. Not orally, but in a paste between the toes.


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## airotciv (Mar 6, 2005)

Just a general question about copper. I live in Oregon and a while back I was talking with a neighbor who grows grass hay. He said that the hay grown here, pastures as well, were low in copper, but high in Iron and Sulfur. Now, if I rember right, that Iron and Sulfur interfer with the intake of copper (college, 30 years ago). So do you have to take this into account when supplementing copper for goats? Is there a rule of thumb on how much to supplement? Very interensting and confusing.


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

And I have a question - what happens to the bolus after the copper in them is gone? Do they just stay in the stomach or what?


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

smwon said:


> And I have a question - what happens to the bolus after the copper in them is gone? Do they just stay in the stomach or what?


Actually, the bolus dissolves, then the copper is slowly absorbed and assimilated by the goats body.
The bolus is just like the capsules that medicines/herbs are encapsulated in for people. They dissolve in the stomach.


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

I have to say, I knew almost nothing about copper sulfate/copper boluses before this thread. All the debate (and _nice_ debate, on *both* sides) really helped me out, because I got both opinions strongly in one place, plus articles to back it up.

Thanks guys, everything is constructive!


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## Bricheze (Jun 21, 2008)

Hey, I know I saw a map for crops/pastures/areas with selenium defeciencies on it. Is there one for copper too?


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Jim S. said:


> Most studies I have seen say that goats *need* 8-10 ppm copper intake as part of the diet daily (except Saanendoah/University of California, which says 10-20 ppm). The Salt Institute says goats "normally have 0.8 to 1.2 ppm copper in the serum." However, the research also says a requirement has not been established, but that goats can *tolerate* copper levels way higher than that.
> 
> The Sweetlix I use runs between 1,750 ppm-1,810 ppm...same as the Sweetlix Caprine Magnum-Milk. That's a lot more than enough. When I pour the stuff out, I taste copper on my tongue just by breathing. I check that it is being consumed (easy with PVC feeders). With the molasses Sweetlix mixes in, the goats lap it up pretty good.
> 
> ...


It's not just about unnatural diets. It is very important to me to feed my animals as naturally as I can. My goats get browse, which is supplemented with alfalfa hay and whole oats, usually 1-2 lbs per day. They get a high copper mineral. But still, I gave some of my does copper boluses a little while back. One of them was black and she is the one you can REALLY tell the difference on. Her coat is coming in underneath glossy black. So still have copper problems with a "natural" diet. I think it's just that we have a lot of iron in our water.


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## Idahoe (Feb 4, 2006)

Bricheze said:


> Hey, I know I saw a map for crops/pastures/areas with selenium defeciencies on it. Is there one for copper too?


http://tin.er.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/averages/cu/usa.html


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## Idahoe (Feb 4, 2006)

airotciv said:


> Just a general question about copper. I live in Oregon and a while back I was talking with a neighbor who grows grass hay. He said that the hay grown here, pastures as well, were low in copper, but high in Iron and Sulfur. Now, if I rember right, that Iron and Sulfur interfer with the intake of copper (college, 30 years ago). So do you have to take this into account when supplementing copper for goats? Is there a rule of thumb on how much to supplement? Very interensting and confusing.


I don't *think* so, but it's a good question.

Copasure makes copper boluses sold all over the US, and given all over the US in spite of the levels of sulfur and iron in the natural environment, so I would think it doesn't matter ENOUGH to adjust any specific dose toward it.


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## airotciv (Mar 6, 2005)

Idahoe said:


> I don't *think* so, but it's a good question.
> 
> Copasure makes copper boluses sold all over the US, and given all over the US in spite of the levels of sulfur and iron in the natural environment, so I would think it doesn't matter ENOUGH to adjust any specific dose toward it.


Thanks, I haven't gotten my goat/sheep yet, next month. So, I'm clueless on most things goat. Until I read this post I didn't know anything about copper supplements. Now I'm just confused.


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## NaturalFamiLEA (May 1, 2009)

This has been a very good thread. I didn't notice that this thread was so old until it was brought up. I would love to hear from Jillis how her goats are doing, and if she still is using the 1/7tsp dose for them.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I started the thread, and I bolus now. It's just one more thing to learn to do.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Idahoe said:


> http://tin.er.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/averages/cu/usa.html


Thanks for the map Idahoe!


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I may try the marshmellow trick too! Let me know if you try it susanne & how it works for you. We also have alot of iron in our water here & am sure that is what messes with our copper absorption too. Not alot of sulfur though thank goodness. I just switched to the Right Now Onyx mineral by cargill a few weeks ago so I'm going to see if that makes an improvement in the goats coats. I was using a minereal that was red based which was copper sulfate in it & this new one has the copper oxide in it. I do see the goats eat it as they need it. It is black in color & I beleive the bag said 2600 ppm's of copper. The feed store I buy from started ordering it for me. 
If I don'e see a change for the better in the coats of my goats I'll try the marshmellow trick but I want to give this mineral awhile to make a difference.


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

I bolus and I have been doing it religiously at 5-month intervals using 1g/22# body weight. I buy the 2g and 4g boluses from Farmrite in the UK and have them shipped over.

You would not believe the difference in many of the animals when they lived at their prior farm vs. what they look like now (I also use Bo-Se and feed only whole grains and a good mineral). I believe the other farm boluses, but I don't know how often or at what dose.


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## farminthewoods (Mar 4, 2009)

Lots of great info about copper, thanks everyone. Now if I could ask a few questions. I got my two Alpine goats about 3 wks ago. Nellie is a year and few months and Daisy is a few months old. I noticed both of their coats are not shiny at all, and a little rough. Daisy has a large rumen, but Nellie never looks fat...and I'm of the understanding that her rumen should look large all the time. 
Their previous owners had them on alfalfa/grass mix and some browse, and a trace mineral/salt block but never a loose goat mineral. 
I have bought a loose goat mineral, but after reading this post and a few other articles, I was concerned the copper in it may not be enough. 
Our water is very high in iron, so much so, that often it looks orange. 
Should I copper oxide bolus them? Is it safe even tho they are getting copper sulfate in their mineral mix? I am planning to get Nellie bred this fall, so I want her to be in better condition before then. 
Where I live their are very few/no goat breeders or goat vets etc so I'm not sure of who to go to for information on copper for goats, so any info from you will be very much appreciated!
Also, these goats have never been dewormed, should I do that before copper supplementation or will copper supplementation take care of any parasites they may have? I read that copper won't be absorbed as well with parasites, and I read that copper helps take care of parasites, so I'm a little confused. ~Kristie


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

Hi Kristie, I don't bolus, but I do give copper sulfate. My doe was pretty copper deficient, much like you describe your does coats, until I started using the copper sulfate and mineral mix according to Pat Coleby. Now she is nice and shiny and quite healthy. Here she is taken about a week ago just before I milked her, but previous to that she had a very coppery color to her legs and her coat was horribly rough.


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## Laural H. (Jul 29, 2008)

I use AZOMITE, here is the link, 
http://azomite.com/feedmatrix.html

I use it on goats, chickens, plants and myself. It's not toxic, and I simply dust a little grain with it about once a week.
This is truly an amazing product, and my goats are happy and healthy. 
This is not a product for treating illness, only deficiencies.
You can find it a plant nurseries and garden centers.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

The Azomite may be good, but it's not going to be your copper supplement at 12 ppm.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

katie i never tried the marsh mellow but with practice, now i rarely have a doe that is chewing the bolus  even my very big boys give me no trouble


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## SunnyHill (Oct 9, 2014)

Hello @ all,

I just came across this great discussion on copper bolus and different ways to supplement this important mineral.

I did read the book of Pat Colby and got very interested in the fact of using her way to supplement my goats, but also got questions which I couldn't figure out by myself. Hoping someone sees my post, because this is a older discussion.

My questions would be,

1. Do you supplement Sulfate and still give the mineral mix? ( In my area all I can get is Cattle Mineral )

2. What about the other parts of supplements Pat is referring to, like Kelp, Sulfur, Vit. C, Dolomite Lime?
How would you handle those parts in the all over diet for the Goats?

I do have to deal with a calcium rich water supply. Already setting up a system to use rain water at least during summer. Winter will be a different situation.

I do have 3 Alpine Goats and one Alpine / Saanen Buck

I would also love to hear form Jillis about her long term experience in using the Copper Sulfate, if this is possible.

In big hopes to get any response

Thank you all


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

It would appear that that person was last on this forum in 2010. It is my understanding that copper sulfate is not absorbed the same as copper oxide wire particles, and neither is absorbed the same as chelated copper. Most people that I know of use a COWP supplement such as coppasure given by bolus. Use peanut butter or vegetable shortening to make the bolus stick in the gun and go down a little better.

Kelp comes as a supplement in bags, company named thorvin is the supplier, various organic feed stores carry it.


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## SunnyHill (Oct 9, 2014)

Thank you for answering my questions barnbilder! 
You actually confirmed my thought about the sulfate, and I think I will go the COWP way, The way of Pat Coleby might be a good idea but it is difficult to find proper info or dosages and I don't feel like going the tial and failure way.

I do use Kelp for all of my animals already for years with great results and the goats do have it free choice mixed with Brewers yeast available all the time. 

In my area it is very hard to get good quality feed or minerals for goats and ordering in the US is almost impossible due to immense shipping cost. So I am searching for Infos to do the very best with what I have available. Any info a day suggestions are mostly appreciated and welcome due to the fact that we just got back into goats and in the past 30 years much has changed.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

A quality loose cattle mineral should be adequate. I just advise people to look for a mineral that is not extremely high in salt. 

Do you have any feed mills or feed stores locally? They can order in just about any product on their product line that they carry. Big names like ADM or Kent etc all have goat specific feeds and minerals they can get. Some cattle minerals are just fine as well - many are using a product called Right Now Onyx. I can't get it locally and when I priced it out far away, it was pricier than my ADM mineral that I am currently using with great success. (ADM Magnamilk goat mineral). 

I would not use copper sulfate as it's already in the minerals and it has the same problem there as everywhere else - it doesn't persist in the gut like COWP do, which is the important factor in preventing barberpole worm problems. COWP are proven to be effective in helping to control parasites. Most people overdiagnose copper deficiency problems in their goats IMO, and I really don't supplement copper bolus for that purpose so much as I do for parasites. 

I don't feed kelp or brewers yeast or supplements because it's an expensive way to throw away money in my opinion. They like it because it's tasty and while it's not likely to be bad for them - it's largely unnecessary. An inexpensive, balanced, quality diet should be more than enough for goats to thrive on.


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