# How do I get an acquaintance to stop talking constantly about her abusive ex-husband?



## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

I sometimes go to a meetup that is occasionally attended by an woman who will talk about nothing else unless she is redirected, and sometimes not even then. By the time you finish reading this, you will probably agree that this is a hopeless case, but here goes anyway.

I get that fleeing an abusive man with two babies, no money, and a minimal support network is dangerous, difficult, and painful, but this happened to her IN 1972!  Forty-six years she's hung onto this, and she does not appear to have moved on at all, on any level. Last time we were both there, she started talking about this, and I said, "You've told that story before; I don't need to hear it again." She did find something else to talk about, but shortly afterwards, she gathered up her stuff and left, saying that her granddaughter had something going on. I have a feeling it was because of what I had said to her, but oh, well.

To give you a better idea of just how bad this has been over the years, she did say that when she was still working, she was fired from more than one job because she wouldn't stop talking about this, and her co-workers complained about it but that didn't seem to affect anything. (I've worked with a few people over the years who received similar talking-tos for this, or preaching their religion or political beliefs, and that usually shut them up.)

I can't be the only person who, when we see her walking in, thinks, "Dear God, please do not allow that woman to sit with me." Thing is, I know there are other women in this group who have experienced the same nightmare, but they don't act that way, and I suspect they don't want her around either.

Any suggestions?


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

It's her burden to carry... I don't know what you can do to help or fix this. Seems like she has some issues letting go.

I talk about my ex husband more often than I probably should... but we're still good friends. I'm sure it scares any potential men away, but I've discovered that I'm sort of a man-hater anyway. No big loss there.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Mentioning that you had an abusive relationship is one thing. Talking about nothing else, to the point where you've lost multiple jobs, is another story.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

thesedays said:


> Mentioning that you had an abusive relationship is one thing. Talking about nothing else, to the point where you've lost multiple jobs, is another story.


Yeah, I gotta agree with that one. She needs to seek professional help for that. If I were to take a wild guess, I would say that her own victim mentality is holding her back. Nothing short of psychotherapy (and maybe not even that) is going to convince this woman to get out of her own way.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

ShannonR said:


> It's her burden to carry... I don't know what you can do to help or fix this. Seems like she has some issues letting go.
> 
> I talk about my ex husband more often than I probably should... but we're still good friends. I'm sure it scares any potential men away, but I've discovered that I'm sort of a man-hater anyway. No big loss there.


The she-woman man haters club? 

I can relate. I was once that way with women after getting burned bad but I am feeling much better now. It was long ago anyway.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

@thesedays sounds like she needs professional help if it still bothers her after all this time. You can try and help but I think she is a "misery likes company" type individual. You are right to not get drawn in too much imo.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Most women who have been through something like this want to put it behind them and move on with their lives. She obviously hasn't, and doesn't seem to want to. You don't have to remarry or anything, but this kind of thing will just plain old eat a person alive. I suspect that she likes having people feel sorry for her.

I'm pretty sure her ex-husband is deceased; she's mentioned that he was not interested in seeing the children, nor they in him, and that she didn't ask for child support because that would have been an exercise in futility.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

mreynolds said:


> The she-woman man haters club?


Precisely!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Years ago, I held a heap of sympathy for women in such situations. I think it was Dr. Laura Slesinger that talked about it in a way I hadn't thought before. She said that if the guy was a drunk, abusive, couldn't hold a job, etc and you married him anyway, its on you. Most of the time, guys just don't suddenly become abusive, drunk or hopelessly unemployed after marriage. Then by the time you have babies with him, was he kind, stable and sober? Bottom line, the people making babies in hopeless situations don't get a pass. They share in the tragedy.

Another tip from Dr. Laura. We can not change what other people do or say. We can only control how we deal with it. I thought about this, a lot. I had an insulting mother in law. I longed for a way to change her. But finally I realized I couldn't I could control how I dealt with her. I'd just say, "That's not true." or "That's a rude thing to say.". Then I forgot about it.

This woman with the lifelong fixation on a past bad situation isn't going to stop. You can deal with her as you like. " That must have been terrible, but I've heard that story before." You could choose to listen quietly. You could choose to tell her, " That was then, this is now, when are you going to get on with the rest of your life?"

What do the other ladies do?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

ShannonR said:


> Precisely!


Well we're not all bad. Chances are better with the lottery though lmao.


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## tiffanysgallery (Jan 17, 2015)

I agree with the other members here she needs professional help OP, but she has to be the one who goes to get the help.

You might have to be blunt with your acquaintance and let her know when enough is enough. Only then would she wake up to what she is saying.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

It's just my personal coping method, I guess... Seems more productive than feeling sorry for myself and talking about how unfair the whole world is, poor little victim me, It's not fair kind of stuff. It's a way of moving on, at least.


mreynolds said:


> Well we're not all bad. Chances are better with the lottery though lmao.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

haypoint said:


> Years ago, I held a heap of sympathy for women in such situations. I think it was Dr. Laura Slesinger that talked about it in a way I hadn't thought before. She said that if the guy was a drunk, abusive, couldn't hold a job, etc and you married him anyway, its on you. Most of the time, guys just don't suddenly become abusive, drunk or hopelessly unemployed after marriage. Then by the time you have babies with him, was he kind, stable and sober? Bottom line, the people making babies in hopeless situations don't get a pass. They share in the tragedy.
> 
> Another tip from Dr. Laura. We can not change what other people do or say. We can only control how we deal with it. I thought about this, a lot. I had an insulting mother in law. I longed for a way to change her. But finally I realized I couldn't I could control how I dealt with her. I'd just say, "That's not true." or "That's a rude thing to say.". Then I forgot about it.
> 
> ...


What Dr. Laura says is very true but my wife has a degree in psychology and has dealt with many situations (including hers) with many different women. Most often the man acts like a gentleman and opens doors and does very nice things that most any woman would ever want. He is very attentive to her needs...at first. then comes the "Well I wish you wouldn't go to your parents house this weekend because I wanted to spend time with you here." Then he slowly alienates her from her family and friends and makes it her fault things are this way. It's a slow process and very calculating on the abusers part. By the time the woman realizes it it's often too late. 

These are things I never realized until she showed me how to spot them. If a man cant let his wife go off with her friends without going through the roof there is a problem. If he cant let her go see her mother or father without griping there is a problem. This is more prevalent than most people realize. And these type of abusers often are the ones you see committing murder of the spouse and often family members when they leave them. 

Yes, the woman will have *some* degree of fault but it isn't cut and dried like Dr. Laura makes it seem. It is very complex and each situation is different.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

ShannonR said:


> It's just my personal coping method, I guess... Seems more productive than feeling sorry for myself and talking about how unfair the whole world is, poor little victim me, It's not fair kind of stuff. It's a way of moving on, at least.


I didn't mean to make light of your situation but I get it. I really do. I think you'll come out of it just fine. His faults and deeds are not your fault. Never was. That's on him.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

mreynolds said:


> I didn't mean to make light of your situation but I get it. I really do. I think you'll come out of it just fine. His faults and deeds are not your fault. Never was. That's on him.


Yeah... I remember when I first realized it wasn't my fault. I had been carrying SO MUCH guilt around, it was unbelievable. I spent about 8 months in therapy, eventually I started to grasp that I wasn't to blame for all of it. If you ask him though, everything is my fault... every time. He's a very typical sociopath.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Old friend of my wife, "Becky" had a fixation with her ex. 
"Fred" was emotionally and physically abusive and controlling. Becky was under his thumb and couldn't do much, say much or go far.
If "Fred" had a bad day, he made sure she had one. They argued all...the...time.
One day he announced he was leaving her and he did.
Then he moved in with another woman; later on they married. Their two kids, a teenage boy and girl, were just like their dad and treated Becky the same way. Kids moved out, married, etc and she was finally free...and still miserable.
As a massage therapist she would travel to clients homes. She couldn't let Fred go and complained about him to every customer she had, until her business dwindled down to nothing.
Joined a singles group at her local church and almost every conversation she had contained "Fred used to..." or "Fred didn't like..."
Surprisingly she had several relationships with men. The first one was "just like Fred" and she dropped him. The second one was a "Fred Lite" and while she kept him at arms length, she continued the relationship for several years.
Being consumed by a previous relationship while currently in a long term relationship with a different man speaks to both players and some bright, blowing red flags.
Fred was an awful husband and person and she still clung to the memory.
Her dating profile were men similar in make up to her ex husband. Even after 15 years it was all she was about.
She moved and lost touch with my wife, but about once a year they'll talk on the phone. She seems to have softened a bit,
but "Fred" is still there.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

1972?????? For the OP, a "Sorry, I'm not listening today." Then walk her off....
There was a guy in my home town who would grab your sleeve so he could bore you longer. I went back for a funeral once, thirty years later--he grabbed my sleeve...…..

geo


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

When people got something they need to talk about, I listen. Don't bother me. I know exactly how it feels to have a failed relationship where one side just didn't carry their share of the load, and empathize with their situation.

I only expect that after they tell me the same story a few times, they allow me to repeat some of my stories, too. It's only fair. If they don't want to do that, it'll be $5 an hour.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Years ago when I traveled for work and was assigned to projects for long periods, I generally looked for share situations to economize. One involved a recently divorced woman whose ex had dumped her. It wasn't abusive as far as I could tell. Still she wanted to rehash things and complain about him. One day I returned from work to find her in the kitchen crying while looking at photos. I'd heard enough. I snapped and said, "You must like making yourself feel bad." when she looked up in shock, I immediately regretted saying that. Later she thanked me. 

Sometimes people need to be verbally poleaxed.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

mreynolds said:


> These are things I never realized until she showed me how to spot them. If a man cant let his wife go off with her friends without going through the roof there is a problem. If he cant let her go see her mother or father without griping there is a problem. This is more prevalent than most people realize.


As with all things there are degrees. Controlling if she can't spend an evening with her friends. A different problem when she spends every evening away from home. Controlling to not let her visit her parents. A different problem if she's gone to live with her parents every weekend.

I think most people give off hints to their true behavior all along. Easy to overlook, at first.

It was once explained to me, "Women marry men, expecting they'll change. Men marry women expecting they won't change. Both are wrong." 

Perhaps the best we can hope is a statement of fact, then let it go:

"I'm sure the abuse you suffered, those many years ago, must have been quite awful. Wouldn't it be worse if you let it spoil the rest of your life? When your life is done, will you regret the minutes, hours, days, weeks and years you spent reliving that abuse instead of building a new life of happiness and positive interactions with those around you that love you?"


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I don't believe anyone can force someone to get over a bad relationship and it's unfortunate that it's consuming her life this many years later. It's up to her to take the steps needed to move on and part of that involves forgiveness. 

She needs to forgive herself for the choices she's made so she's able to consider how she can move forward without repeating the mistakes of her past. She needs to forgive her abusive spouse so she can let go of her hurt and anger so she can move forward without him still controlling her life. 

Unfortunately, until she makes the changes needed, she's very likely unaware that her abusive spouse controls her as much now as he did so many years ago.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Remember, you are only getting one side of the story. And he knew her better than you do.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

muleskinner2 said:


> Remember, you are only getting one side of the story. And he knew her better than you do.


True! Very true, actually. But, what does that have to do with her apparent inability to let go and move on?


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

ShannonR said:


> True! Very true, actually. But, what does that have to do with her apparent inability to let go and move on?


When I was a Deputy, I heard every sob story ever told. Some people just like being a victim. He might of been a nice guy, till she drove him nuts.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

muleskinner2 said:


> When I was a Deputy, I heard every sob story ever told. Some people just like being a victim. He might of been a nice guy, till she drove him nuts.


That's about what I had to say too. About the woman, not whatever dude she keeps blubbering on about.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I think you handled it well. Seriously.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

When you realize you can't change anyone except yourself - you are on your way to changing this situation. Just excuse yourself and walk away!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mreynolds said:


> Then he slowly alienates her from her family and friends and makes it her fault things are this way. It's a slow process and very calculating on the abusers part .


 Really ? I’ve heard this a million times and like most just accepted it. 
But is it true ? To they really spot a woman in high school and carefully calculate how to woe and wed her and separate her from her family over the next 4 to10 years ?
Or perhaps her family has something to do with it ?
My Ex mil was a night mare she did her best every day from the day I met my ex to split us up till she was finally successful. 
I never did but I should have separated her from her cold calculating mom and family of users.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Wolf mom said:


> When you realize you can't change anyone except yourself - you are on your way to changing this situation. Just excuse yourself and walk away!


I think you have the right idea. 
But I’m a polite kind of guy so I’d look her in the eye and tell her “ you have told me that before, unless you want me to help you do something about it it is mean to try to make me share your pain again.” If she started on it again then or any other time I’d cut her off and ask her how she thinks I can assist her. 
Anything other than a. Clear plan of recovery would get the reply “ you are being rude, stop being mean to me or leave”.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

muleskinner2 said:


> Remember, you are only getting one side of the story. And he knew her better than you do.


I fully understand that we're only getting one side of the story but if she's still living it today, she needs to get past it, one way or another.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

thesedays said:


> I sometimes go to a meetup that is occasionally attended by an woman who will talk about nothing else unless she is redirected, and sometimes not even then.


I would start going to a different meeting.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

wr said:


> I fully understand that we're only getting one side of the story but if she's still living it today, she needs to get past it, one way or another.


Exactly. I am hardly young and this happened before I was born.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

she doesn't want to get past it. you said she is an acquaintance,, not a close friend .. so avoid her , what are you losing by doing that ?
If you continue to listen to her, then you are being part of her problem. she is feeding off of you like a parasite.
I put her into the same category as someone who blames their unhappy life on a lousy childhood. 
they are grown up now, so grow up..


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Really ? I’ve heard this a million times and like most just accepted it.
> But is it true ? To they really spot a woman in high school and carefully calculate how to woe and wed her and separate her from her family over the next 4 to10 years ?
> Or perhaps her family has something to do with it ?
> My Ex mil was a night mare she did her best every day from the day I met my ex to split us up till she was finally successful.
> I never did but I should have separated her from her cold calculating mom and family of users.


You watch too much TV man. A million times? Really? *If you heard it that much there might be something to it*. 

This woman isn't J Lo taking Krav Maga classes to get back at her ex. If you had read my whole post I said every situation is different. My wife even knows a Lesbian lady that had an abusive girlfriend like that. And no, women aren't exempt from becoming abusers either. They do much the same things with the alienation just a different way. Unless they are bigger than the man that is. I'm pretty sure Rhonda Rousey or Layla Ali could knock me across the room with ease if they chose to.


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## tiffanysgallery (Jan 17, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> Then he slowly alienates her from her family and friends and makes it her fault things are this way. It's a slow process and very calculating on the abusers part. By the time the woman realizes it it's often too late.


I've seen and heard about this in the volunteer work that I've done. 

Both women and men do this. They want to alienate the other so that family and friends won't be able to object to how they are being treated.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

GTX63 said:


> Old friend of my wife, "Becky" had a fixation with her ex.
> "Fred" was emotionally and physically abusive and controlling. Becky was under his thumb and couldn't do much, say much or go far.
> If "Fred" had a bad day, he made sure she had one. They argued all...the...time.
> One day he announced he was leaving her and he did.
> ...


Bet Becky grew up with a father like Fred. Too bad that imprinting is not just for ducks...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I have a friend with a similar problem. For her whole life, her mother talked about how her MIL was stealing from her. Through her marriage, she complained about her husband throwing away her stuff. Small things, a platter, a screwdriver, a tape measure. Like many people that grew up in the depression, her possessions loom large in her life.

Well her MIL has been dead for decades and her husband has been dead a couple years. She lives alone. But now, someone is breaking into her house and stealing stuff. Elvis CDs, ink pens, grocery lists. She has locks on both exterior doors, locks on all windows. She has placed a board on the door, blocking it from inside. Every window has a board blocking it from being slid open. Recently, her daughter, in an attempt to reassure her, installed a home alarm system. There is a switch on every door and window. She dead bolts the front door.

But each week, she has new complaints. She has stacked boxes in front of all windows, to act as a barricade. Several of her old dresses are missing. More music CDs are gone. She spends most of her time alone. But as soon as she gets out, like a family get together or a friend sees her at a grocery store, she starts in about the thief. One could say it is dementia. But in reality, she has had these kooky thoughts her whole life. Any attempts to explain that it is impossible for anyone to get in, are denied, " I don't know how, but they have figured a way." Correcting her is a waste of time.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

haypoint said:


> I have a friend with a similar problem. For her whole life, her mother talked about how her MIL was stealing from her. Through her marriage, she complained about her husband throwing away her stuff. Small things, a platter, a screwdriver, a tape measure. Like many people that grew up in the depression, her possessions loom large in her life.
> 
> Well her MIL has been dead for decades and her husband has been dead a couple years. She lives alone. But now, someone is breaking into her house and stealing stuff. Elvis CDs, ink pens, grocery lists. She has locks on both exterior doors, locks on all windows. She has placed a board on the door, blocking it from inside. Every window has a board blocking it from being slid open. Recently, her daughter, in an attempt to reassure her, installed a home alarm system. There is a switch on every door and window. She dead bolts the front door.
> 
> But each week, she has new complaints. She has stacked boxes in front of all windows, to act as a barricade. Several of her old dresses are missing. More music CDs are gone. She spends most of her time alone. But as soon as she gets out, like a family get together or a friend sees her at a grocery store, she starts in about the thief. One could say it is dementia. But in reality, she has had these kooky thoughts her whole life. Any attempts to explain that it is impossible for anyone to get in, are denied, " I don't know how, but they have figured a way." Correcting her is a waste of time.


She is so focused inward that she is losing the rest of her life. Needs to get out of the house and into a group or a volunteer organization... Also maybe medication. If she refuses her life is basically over.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mreynolds said:


> You watch too much TV man. A million times? Really? *If you heard it that much there might be something to it*.
> 
> This woman isn't J Lo taking Krav Maga classes to get back at her ex. If you had read my whole post I said every situation is different. My wife even knows a Lesbian lady that had an abusive girlfriend like that. And no, women aren't exempt from becoming abusers either. They do much the same things with the alienation just a different way. Unless they are bigger than the man that is. I'm pretty sure Rhonda Rousey or Layla Ali could knock me across the room with ease if they chose to.


Lol a million times is a phrase.
But I’m not sure it’s not literally true.
The times I’ve heard it on the news , on tv in magazines books , movies , conversations the list goes on. 
I know you mentioned contingencies but I wanted to examine that idea that herds of men are out there planning to ruin the lives of innocent women .
Perhaps it’s the reaction of men under stress to protect their families ?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol a million times is a phrase.
> But I’m not sure it’s not literally true.
> The times I’ve heard it on the news , on tv in magazines books , movies , conversations the list goes on.
> I know you mentioned contingencies but I wanted to examine that idea that herds of men are out there planning to ruin the lives of innocent women .
> Perhaps it’s the reaction of men under stress to protect their families ?


Well I don't think it's herds of men but I do think it is more common than most of us men realize. Pretty sure women know though because they are more inclined to talk with each other about it. 

I can't imagine a man coming to work telling me how he abuses his wife nor how his wife abuses him.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol a million times is a phrase.
> But I’m not sure it’s not literally true.
> The times I’ve heard it on the news , on tv in magazines books , movies , conversations the list goes on.
> I know you mentioned contingencies but I wanted to examine that idea that herds of men are out there planning to ruin the lives of innocent women .
> Perhaps it’s the reaction of men under stress to protect their families ?


Thanks for letting us all know what kind of guy you really are. "Protect their families"? Two sides to every story, I guess!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mreynolds said:


> Well I don't think it's herds of men but I do think it is more common than most of us men realize. Pretty sure women know though because they are more inclined to talk with each other about it.
> 
> I can't imagine a man coming to work telling me how he abuses his wife nor how his wife abuses him.


Yeah but do they talk about how their moms are trying to sabotage their relationships?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

ShannonR said:


> Thanks for letting us all know what kind of guy you really are. "Protect their families"? Two sides to every story, I guess!


So just because I can see there might be another side to the story you want to use shame tactics on me ?
Gee I think you might have done a better job of answering MR than I did.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Yeah but do they talk about how their moms are trying to sabotage their relationships?


In-laws are ugly... mens Mama's do the exact same thing.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

There’s a reason the Bible calls for a man to leave his family and cleave to his wife.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

light rain said:


> Bet Becky grew up with a father like Fred. Too bad that imprinting is not just for ducks...


That cycle is hard to break but it can be done.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

ShannonR said:


> In-laws are ugly... mens Mama's do the exact same thing.


 I realize this. It takes a strong man to take on his mom in these cases. 
But what concerns me is your need to shame someone who says there could be a legitimate and good reason for isolating a family from harm. 
Women come to this forum and ask how to do it and no one shamed them and advice is even offered on the best way to do it.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> I realize this. It takes a strong man to take on his mom in these cases.
> But what concerns me is your need to shame someone who says there could be a legitimate and good reason for isolating a family from harm.
> Women come to this forum and ask how to do it and no one shamed them and advice is even offered on the best way to do it.


Some things you say concern me too, so I guess we're even there?? Lol

I don't think that a man isolating a woman from her family is necessarily isolating her or the family from harm; it is done in order to protect himself from her family's scrutiny. Protect himself, not her or the family. Women probably do this for similar reasons...


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> I realize this. It takes a strong man to take on his mom in these cases.
> But what concerns me is your need to shame someone who says there could be a legitimate and good reason for isolating a family from harm.
> Women come to this forum and ask how to do it and no one shamed them and advice is even offered on the best way to do it.


Certainly, there could be a legitimate reason for someone to distance from their family but do you truly believe that it's all cases or a convenient way to shift blame onto women who've left abusive relationships? 

It could also be said that women are adults and it really could be considered intelligent enough to decide if their own families are harmful or dangerous to a relationship. 

Isolation is a small facet of spousal abuse, are you also able to justify beating one's spouse as well?


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

wr said:


> Certainly, there could be a legitimate reason for someone to distance from their family but do you truly believe that it's all cases or a convenient way to shift blame onto women who've left abusive relationships?
> 
> It could also be said that women are adults and it really could be considered intelligent enough to decide if their own families are harmful or dangerous to a relationship.
> 
> Isolation is a small facet of spousal abuse, are you also able to justify beating one's spouse as well?


Good question, guess we'll have to wait and see.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

wr said:


> Certainly, there could be a legitimate reason for someone to distance from their family but do you truly believe that it's all cases or a convenient way to shift blame onto women who've left abusive relationships?
> 
> It could also be said that women are adults and it really could be considered intelligent enough to decide if their own families are harmful or dangerous to a relationship.
> 
> Isolation is a small facet of spousal abuse, are you also able to justify beating one's spouse as well?


 When women come here talking about how their MIL is toxic to themselves and relationships do you shame them for wanting to abuse their husbands. ?
Yet it’s happily pointed out how this is a sign of abuse and long planned when it’s abouts a man in question. 
Do you really want me to answer the last question or admit it’s just a subtle shaming ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

ShannonR said:


> Some things you say concern me too, so I guess we're even there?? Lol
> 
> I don't think that a man isolating a woman from her family is necessarily isolating her or the family from harm; it is done in order to protect himself from her family's scrutiny. Protect himself, not her or the family. Women probably do this for similar reasons...


You don’t ever think it could be for her best interest ?


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> You don’t ever think it could be for her best interest ?


I don't think it's a man's right to decide her best interest for her. So I suppose that's sort of a roundabout "no" to your question.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> When women come here talking about how their MIL is toxic to themselves and relationships do you shame them for wanting to abuse their husbands. ?
> Yet it’s happily pointed out how this is a sign of abuse and long planned when it’s abouts a man in question.
> Do you really want me to answer the last question or admit it’s just a subtle shaming ?


I for one was curious as to how you'd answer that last question, yeah.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Big differences between all , some,most, could,might, may etc.
I think relationships are made of fallable people. 
I don’t think all or even most of gender are evil. I suspect it’s a tiny tiny portion of both.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

ShannonR said:


> I don't think it's a man's right to decide her best interest for her. So I suppose that's sort of a roundabout "no" to your question.


So she gets to decide for him ?
Remember it’s the family we are talking about not so much him or her


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

ShannonR said:


> I for one was curious as to how you'd answer that last question, yeah.


 Well yes of course.
It’s a mans duty to please his wife.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> So she gets to decide for him ?
> Remember it’s the family we are talking about not so much him or her


Scroll up the page a little and reread my post. I did say that I suspect women do it for similar reasons. 



ShannonR said:


> I don't think that a man isolating a woman from her family is necessarily isolating her or the family from harm; it is done in order to protect himself from her family's scrutiny. Protect himself, not her or the family. Women probably do this for similar reasons...


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Well yes of course.
> It’s a mans duty to please his wife.


Lol


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

You asked for a reason. 
Didn’t say it was average or even real good.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> When women come here talking about how their MIL is toxic to themselves and relationships do you shame them for wanting to abuse their husbands. ?
> Yet it’s happily pointed out how this is a sign of abuse and long planned when it’s abouts a man in question.
> Do you really want me to answer the last question or admit it’s just a subtle shaming ?


It’s odd you would make such broad assumptions about my opinions. I would suggest that men are also capable of making decisions about their families as well. 

Family drama really has little to do with spousal abuse. Perhaps you’d like to share what you feel is spousal abuse.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> You don’t ever think it could be for her best interest ?


Only if it's a mutual decision, never if only one spouse is unilateraly making the decision


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

wr said:


> Isolation is a small facet of spousal abuse, are you also able to justify beating one's spouse as well?


Beating one's spouse is easy to judge as abuse. Isolation is a bit tougher.

We moved 300 miles away from where we grew up. To have friends visit, it often meant a weekend visit. My wife was willing to invite her friends, but resisted when I wanted my friends to visit. But I was busy. Working on the farm. Working full time off the farm. Raising children. She never wanted to meet or do things with the people I worked with. Her friends all smoked pot and she said they weren't comfortable entertaining people (me) that didn't smoke. (My employer did random drug tests) So, over years, almost daily, she'd go visit her friends, I'd just work on the farm. Created a lot of isolation and I just went along with it.

When we were dating, she was smoking a bit of pot. Not a big deal, lots of people did. Many outgrew it. But it took me too long to see that the common denominator in all our social contact was pot. So I can see that a woman might marry a guy that drinks and not see she's married to an alcoholic. Took me a long time to see that I was a means to her true love, getting high,


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Haypoint do you consider yourself abused ?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

haypoint said:


> Beating one's spouse is easy to judge as abuse. Isolation is a bit tougher.
> 
> We moved 300 miles away from where we grew up. To have friends visit, it often meant a weekend visit. My wife was willing to invite her friends, but resisted when I wanted my friends to visit. But I was busy. Working on the farm. Working full time off the farm. Raising children. She never wanted to meet or do things with the people I worked with. Her friends all smoked pot and she said they weren't comfortable entertaining people (me) that didn't smoke. (My employer did random drug tests) So, over years, almost daily, she'd go visit her friends, I'd just work on the farm. Created a lot of isolation and I just went along with it.
> 
> When we were dating, she was smoking a bit of pot. Not a big deal, lots of people did. Many outgrew it. But it took me too long to see that the common denominator in all our social contact was pot. So I can see that a woman might marry a guy that drinks and not see she's married to an alcoholic. Took me a long time to see that I was a means to her true love, getting high,


Beating one's spouse isn't always an accepted definition of abuse either. Quite a few people who physically abuse their spouses, actually claim it was justified or sanctioned by their religious beliefs. 

My question was actually directed toward another member, who seems disinterested in answering my question.


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

sounds like she is in a self filling loop and spiral. unfortunately this is often a common thing with people who have substance abuses (Do not believe you mentioned if this lady did or didn't.) as peoples memories are effected by zoning out all the time,they instinctively rely more and more on long term memory because they are frying their medium or short term by being wasted all the time. This tends to get them into cycles where they basically replay situations,to really just remain functional. for instance when they go to work, they do not necessarily react 100% to the situation as it is happening, they react to the situation as it has happened prior. Sometimes that is a good thing because when they are wasted they clearly are not their best anyway usually. They will also replay things in their head as their mind recalls at random times events from the past and their neurons fire up in some weird combination that sparks it. you'll find they often get re-mad at something that happened weeks,months,years or even longer ago because back then is when their long term memories actually got set.
She no doubt doesn't know how to break out of the loops that has dragged her down, and in many ways actually has gotten used to them which allows her a type of excuse, reason and comfort since once she can use them she has something to talk about without really any stress of having to actually figure something out new. People often like sort of sitting on their laurels so to speak, the reason is because once you've done something either by hard work or even accident then it's less stress to kick back and just put thing on auto pilot. unfortunately, often once you achieve that complacency that auto pilot often just keeps you coasting along without really achievement, so the loop starts, then the next day it is the same as well as week,month,year....and decades.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Restraining orders, jail time, trips to the er, messy divorces..... Wouldn't it be simpler to just go ahead and do the darned dishes?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

wr said:


> Quite a few people who physically abuse their spouses, actually claim it was justified


I've never been comfortable with spouses hitting. One couple I know, he teases her, in his mind, just a bit of humor. But lacking a verbal comeback, she'll punch him in the arm. Some times she hits quite hard. I have seen him react with, " Hey, that hurts." then punch her shoulder. I hate it but after 40 years, they are still married and I'm divorced. So, I think it is difficult for any outsider to see what is abuse based on a sliver of information.

A neighbor couple fight. She is taller and out weighs her husband. I know of times she has thrown things at him, frying pan, plates, etc. One time, to keep from getting hit, he gabbed her. He grabbed on hard. Ended up putting a bruise on her arm. Sure looked like physical abuse.

One time my wife was kicked in the nose by a horse. Blackened both eyes. Getting her checked out by a couple specialists, spent most of a day at the hospital, plus we went out to dinner. It was clear that lots of folks made the snap assumption that I was looked upon as a wife beater. I didn't mind, better than have people ignore it. Just interesting that people are willing to judge without knowing anything.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

When I was in grade school, a neighboring family had 5 children. Four boys and a girl. Their dad was quite a drunk. But every Saturday, he took the kids out, I guess to give his wife a break. He'd park downtown, in front of the Bar. Leave the kids in the car. Every now and then, he'd bring out a few little bags of potato chips or a few sodas, then return to the Bar.

The girl was a year or two younger than me and was very pretty and kind. She did well in school. I felt she was headed to a good life. But right after graduation from high school, she married a drunk and had a couple children with him. Life was a struggle because he couldn't hold a job. At the time, I couldn't figure out why, after seeing how awful living with a drunk was, she'd pick one to marry. But now, looking back, after seeing the pattern repeat over and over, I can often see it coming. Sad.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Rather than say I like this post I will say it is totally truthful and yes, sad...


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

thesedays said:


> I sometimes go to a meetup that is occasionally attended by an woman who will talk about nothing else unless she is redirected, and sometimes not even then. By the time you finish reading this, you will probably agree that this is a hopeless case, but here goes anyway.
> 
> I get that fleeing an abusive man with two babies, no money, and a minimal support network is dangerous, difficult, and painful, but this happened to her IN 1972!......
> 
> Any suggestions?


Sounds like her PTSD has really taken a deep deep root, that's why she can't let go. I don't think there's anything you can do if she hasn't gotten any kind of help or support by now.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

wr said:


> My question was actually directed toward another member, who seems disinterested in answering my question.


Who and what question? It looks to me like all of the questions you asked in this thread have been answered.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> Who and what question? It looks to me like all of the questions you asked in this thread have been answered.


I still can't find your definition of spousal abuse so perhaps you could clarify.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

I just recently read about complaining but have actually observed this . Repeated complaining rewrites your brain to make future complaining more likely. Over time you find it is easier to be negative than to be positive, regardless of what is happening around you. Complaining becomes your default behaviour which changes the way in which people perceive you.

Most people have somethings in their lives that they are upset about and need to vent so most conversations do include some complaining. I listen and support my friends and family but I also will bluntly tell them that that is enough complaining for now so let us get happy.

This woman has been complaining for more than 30 years about her ex. This is not normal. She really needs to seek professional help.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

wr said:


> I still can't find your definition of spousal abuse so perhaps you could clarify.


 Oh I missed that 
I don’t have one. I suspect I will know it when I see it.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

You aren't ever going to change people. Either avoid them, or put up with them. Your choice.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Alder said:


> You aren't ever going to change people. Either avoid them, or put up with them. Your choice.


Correct! You get what you tolerate. That goes for both her and you.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Perhaps look up the ladies ex, bring him to the next function. Sounds like she has unfinished business with him. A little closure could help her.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

That might cause you to be charged as an accessory later.


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## jerry arnold (Dec 1, 2018)

haypoint said:


> I've never been comfortable with spouses hitting. One couple I know, he teases her, in his mind, just a bit of humor. But lacking a verbal comeback, she'll punch him in the arm. Some times she hits quite hard. I have seen him react with, " Hey, that hurts." then punch her shoulder. I hate it but after 40 years, they are still married and I'm divorced. So, I think it is difficult for any outsider to see what is abuse based on a sliver of information.
> 
> A neighbor couple fight. She is taller and out weighs her husband. I know of times she has thrown things at him, frying pan, plates, etc. One time, to keep from getting hit, he gabbed her. He grabbed on hard. Ended up putting a bruise on her arm. Sure looked like physical abuse.
> 
> One time my wife was kicked in the nose by a horse. Blackened both eyes. Getting her checked out by a couple specialists, spent most of a day at the hospital, plus we went out to dinner. It was clear that lots of folks made the snap assumption that I was looked upon as a wife beater. I didn't mind, better than have people ignore it. Just interesting that people are willing to judge without knowing anything.


you sure right...


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Perhaps look up the ladies ex, bring him to the next function. Sounds like she has unfinished business with him. A little closure could help her.


At the very least, it will surely make the meeting more interesting. maybe bring some boxing gloves? I've found with people who mention being abused often, as in they sort of lead with their problems/etc, and I am sure we have all run into such people before, even if rarely, it tends to be over exaggerated and built up in their own minds more than it was in reality, though you would never be able to convince them of that usually....and not that such abuse never happened,abuse happens all the time (Especially by the snowflakes who have defined it as "Anything I don't like, or makes me feel even the slightest bit sad like Hillary Clinton losing a election, because she cares so much about me though she doesn't ever call me for some reason, or know my name.") but the mind has a way of building things up and changing your memories of them over time.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

LOL we have a neighbor who constantly talks about how bad her BF beats her.
She drinks a lot talks about it more then goes home
She might get more sympathy if she would not fight in the front room or close her curtains.
She lives across from the neighborhood gathering spot so many is the night we have watched her beat on HIM while screaming for him to hit her.
I suspect she just needs pain therapy and he wont give it to her. But Im pretty sure the talk is simply her dream.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Bob M. said:


> ..................... (Especially by the snowflakes who have defined it as "Anything I don't like, or makes me feel even the slightest bit sad like Hillary Clinton losing a election, because she cares so much about me though she doesn't ever call me for some reason, or know my name.") ....................


It's pretty pathetic to have to interject your political whineypoints into every thread. Almost snowflakey.
No, I'm wrong. Definitely snowflakey.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

thesedays said:


> I sometimes go to a meetup that is occasionally attended by an woman who will talk about nothing else unless she is redirected, and sometimes not even then. By the time you finish reading this, you will probably agree that this is a hopeless case, but here goes anyway.
> 
> I get that fleeing an abusive man with two babies, no money, and a minimal support network is dangerous, difficult, and painful, but this happened to her IN 1972!  Forty-six years she's hung onto this, and she does not appear to have moved on at all, on any level. Last time we were both there, she started talking about this, and I said, "You've told that story before; I don't need to hear it again." She did find something else to talk about, but shortly afterwards, she gathered up her stuff and left, saying that her granddaughter had something going on. I have a feeling it was because of what I had said to her, but oh, well.
> 
> ...


Sorry i didn't read pass the 1st line.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

this thread is beginning to feel like your acquaintance problem.
summary: there is nothing you can do for her.
she has to do it for herself. but she has to want to,
so it probably won't happen..


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yes but we will keep talking about it anyway...….Or at least another 50 years!


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Perhaps look up the ladies ex, bring him to the next function. Sounds like she has unfinished business with him. A little closure could help her.


This is the best suggestion in the entire thread! Make her face those demons.... lol hahaha


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

Clem said:


> It's pretty pathetic to have to interject your political whineypoints into every thread. Almost snowflakey.
> No, I'm wrong. Definitely snowflakey.


1) I do not interject anything into 'every thread' or posts, so quit crying as if I hurt your feelings over it.
2) merely giving that as a example of something (Which does in fact fit) that especially is the case, does not indicate it is the only case of such, so isn't even political really at all....so quit your crying again.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

waahh, waah.. b-b-but hillary.
No, that's not whining.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Bob M. said:


> 1) I do not interject anything into 'every thread' or posts, so quite crying as if I hurt your feelings over it.
> 2) merely giving that as a example of something (Which does in fact fit) that especially is the case, does not indicate it is the only case of such, so isn't even political really at all....so quite your crying again.


There is actually a special section of this forum for you to talk about politics. Popular vote decreed that we don't insert politics into the "homesteady" forums, because politics are not what this forum is supposed to be about.


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

I knew that already, and its a ok idea, but what i said wasnt about politics at all, it was about exactly what it is presented to be about, which was a response about those who stretch definitions of things, for instance like the abuse that was mentioned previously and of which I quoted about when responding. merely mentioning someone;'s name who is political does not in any way shape or form make it a political post, anymore than saying President Donald Trump wears this or that kind of a suit. though I am sure his suits are custom tailored so isn't really this or that specific kind of a suit at all. But if you were saying this to be informative, than thank you.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

Regardless of spineless equivocating, you have injected politics into one of the busier threads we've had recently, just for the sake of injecting politics into a busy thread. And, you just claimed that you knew about the dark rooms, so therefore, you have no excuse other than just trolling for the sake of trolling. Something that is done quite regularly in news-related threads. Go back, read the OP, all the other posts, and think real hard. Exactly where does Hillary fit in?? The answer is obvious, she only fits in this thread within your mind.


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

no...she only fits into this thread in your mind....I just used her name as a example, she had nothing to do with it at all, and even using her name in it as the example , it wasn't about her at all nor about politics. I think you and probably many others are bias on such things so just want to see what you want to see, and not what is actually there before you. The response was and still is only about those who try to redefine abuse, which was in fact what was being talked about, and was clearly the point.
But it is nice of you to admit your equivocating was spineless. apology accepted. Not really sure why you are trying to stretch this out into more than it is, though.
You have 'realist' under your name there...I don't think the word means what you think it does.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

You know how you think you've seen someone before? And how you can always identify someone, eventually, by their patterns, speech, punctuation, spelling, misinterpretations, idiosyncrasies? 

Well, Boink.


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

You back onto this again? which is definitely not part of this thread? like I said I dont think the word realist means what you think it does because you seem to me to once again be hinting that I am someone else, and well, that just isn't the case, so deal with the reality already will you, have never been here before and that is just that. snowflakes and others do have a problem with understanding things which is why they really constantly redefine things. instead of dealing with reality, they instead try to change the reality into what their myopic shortcomings and perceptions are, they also have a issue with being incorrect usually, and then of course there is often the ad hominem arguments, like for instance instead of having a point bringing up someone 'must not be who they say they are and must be a evil doer and someone else' so as to discredit them because they really have nothing to work with using actual logic.......just as a example you know....

btw,I am done with you for now and carrying this on, so back to the thread.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Get a room.


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

why? it was over 15 minutes ago.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Clem said:


> Regardless of spineless equivocating, you have injected politics into one of the busier threads we've had recently, just for the sake of injecting politics into a busy thread. And, you just claimed that you knew about the dark rooms, so therefore, you have no excuse other than just trolling for the sake of trolling. Something that is done quite regularly in news-related threads. Go back, read the OP, all the other posts, and think real hard. Exactly where does Hillary fit in?? The answer is obvious, she only fits in this thread within your mind.


A lot of his posts make little to zero sense at all, except in his mind. Could be drugs, could be a lot of other things, but I don't have time to speculate on it right now. Maybe later lol


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

and now those who ruin discussions once again change the subject of the discussion to something else, ad hominem. sorry, discussion isnt about me, deal with it.you dont have to understand me really, but I am still not the topic of the conversation.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

Bob M. said:


> and now those who ruin discussions once again change the subject of the discussion to something else, ad hominem. sorry, discussion isnt about me, deal with it.you dont have to understand me really, but I am still not the topic of the conversation.



But what about the Mormons ?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

oneraddad said:


> But what about the Mormons ?


Did you know they used to make the men have multiple wives? Now that's abuse!


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## Echoesechos (Jan 22, 2010)

Kinda like that saying “haters gonna hate”, a victim is going to victim. I agree she has lived in that world so long it’s become how she identifies herself and her lot in life. Somewhere somehow it’s been reaffirmed. She is stuck in that thought process unless she seeks help. Not sure after this many years it would help or not. Kinda feel sorry for her that she doesn’t realize how much the world could be her oyster. But I agree it gets old to listen too, especially when you know she isn’t going to change.


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

"Did you know they used to make the men have multiple wives? Now that's abuse!"

was it a made to do type of thing? I never heard that. 'the flippin' mormons?' honestly I have met a few of them, (I have aso met Mitt Romney, though not my most fav person anymore.)and seriously so far, they have been the nicest most dedicated and sort of legit people I have ever met. not so sure about their religion but I do not think having multiple wives is a abuse honestly.
I am sort of ok with it...I mean why not? Now, there have been some abuses involving it, mostly suppression/etc, but honestly the whole country and indeed the world used to suppress woman as just a thing we did really....and well, they allowed themselves to be suppressed in many ways also, so many of them fell for the BS of 'a womans place' they taught their own daughters to succumb even...so ...well, who really was the abusers? It was without a doubt a group effort here, and it is every humans duty and right to stand up for themselves, it isn't up for others to do it for you. people have the right to pursuit happiness and success, it isn't a guarantee, and that is equal to all really.


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## ShannonR (Nov 28, 2012)

Bob M. said:


> and now those who ruin discussions once again change the subject of the discussion to something else, ad hominem. sorry, discussion isnt about me, deal with it.you dont have to understand me really, but I am still not the topic of the conversation.


Thread drift happens... get over it.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Did you know they used to make the men have multiple wives? Now that's abuse!


Maybe they should have called them the Lessmons instead. Then it wouldn't have been a problem.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

ShannonR said:


> There is actually a special section of this forum for you to talk about politics. Popular vote decreed that we don't insert politics into the "homesteady" forums, because politics are not what this forum is supposed to be about.


 Not exactly it was more like a decree to shut up the whiners that claimed they couldn’t have a civil conversation on certain topics. 
No vote admin just did what they wanted.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> Not exactly it was more like a decree to shut up the whiners that claimed they couldn’t have a civil conversation on certain topics.
> No vote admin just did what they wanted.


Admin doesn't ask for votes when they start a new section but it is in response to a certain amount of demand. The Dark Room was formed based on Admin discussion with members who did not want to see hot button topics in their recent threads feed.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

having multiple wives is not such a bad abuse.

but with each wife comes another mother in law !!


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

wr said:


> Admin doesn't ask for votes when they start a new section but it is in response to a certain amount of demand. The Dark Room was formed based on Admin discussion with members who did not want to see hot button topics in their recent threads feed.


Really the problem was SEEING thread titles ?
Thank you for that insight into the administration’s thought process


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

What is important is the admins were responsive to the members concerns.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Half of them.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I guess enough.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I suppose a lot of it is in the perception I thought that the outcry was to enforce the rules on members being civil no matter what they were discussing 
Yhe solution was to put those that couldn’t be civil all together in one place where those in favor of civility wouldn’t be inconvenienced buy them. 
But with that new place came moving hot button topics to that place so now there is no place to discuss hot button topics civilly 

I didn’t know until WRs post how the administration Had viewed it.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

There is no place to discuss hot button topics in a civil manner because the folks there sometimes aren't civil. Oh, well. <shrug>


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> I suppose a lot of it is in the perception I thought that the outcry was to enforce the rules on members being civil no matter what they were discussing
> Yhe solution was to put those that couldn’t be civil all together in one place where those in favor of civility wouldn’t be inconvenienced buy them.
> But with that new place came moving hot button topics to that place so now there is no place to discuss hot button topics civilly
> 
> I didn’t know until WRs post how the administration Had viewed it.


Members are expected to be civil regardless of what they discuss but even Chuck owned HT, GC was an opt in forum intended to discuss those hotter topics but the rules were very strictly enforced. 

The Dark Room was created in response to members who wanted more relaxed rules but in both cases, Admin and site owners want to respect those members who prefer to focus on homesteading subjects.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> having multiple wives is not such a bad abuse.
> 
> but with each wife comes another mother in law !!


And therein lies the abuse.


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