# Pro's & Cons of Lab vs Germ Shorthair Pointer



## salliemae (Jan 10, 2015)

....As a *Working & Hunting dog*:

(..any voters for a Plott hound?) 

Main Purposes: 
To earn its keep either by:
1.	*Protecting up and coming barnyard ducks *(from coyotes, fox, hawks)
2.	*Helping me stir up and or retrieve hunted game*
3.	*Notifying me of worthwhile*(!), (not boogiemen) *concerns* on my 2 ac of land.

I am not a fan of dogs/breeds that bark/howl excessively. 
Yes, a dog is going to bark, but some are just insane. 
Also, I donât have time to train a pup, but maybe in a couple of years. 
(What signs to look...to possibly determine whether an adopted dog/or shelter dog might work well with the ducks/not kill them?) 

My concern is that a pointer might need A LOT more opportunity to exercise than I can give it over the next couple yearsâ¦thatâs why I sort of lean towards an older adult dog, maybe the Lab at this point. Thinking the easiest thing I can do is set up a cable run for the dog now. Eventually, a fence in the 2 acres for him, and the goats and such. 


If you have dealt with these breeds or mixes of them, please give me real-life proâs and conâs of them. (And if you have any suggestions of a mixed breed with either that might make either dog a medium sized dog, but maintain some main qualities of these dogs, please share...)

Thanks for your help.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I've dealt with both. 
On every occasion in my life except 2 (they were both old and chocolate, strangely), every lab I have ever encountered was out of control, snappy or aggressive, untrustworthy around small livestock and uneasy around strangers. I hate them all. I've been charged by more than one in my life. I've personally encountered dozens of Labradors in many different parts of the country. They are over bred and poorly trained, in general. Because of my numerous personal experiences, they are my least favorite dog of all time. 

I owned a german shorthair for a while. They are HIGH energy dogs. GSP's are a hunting dog. You cant expect them to run off vermin and still protect your ducks. They aren't wired for it in their brains. The one I had was male and ran a rut around the inside of my fence line barking at the neighborhood cats and squirrels. Yep, excessively. Sounds like to me you need some other breed. 

What breed? Blue Heeler maybe? German Shepherd? A mutt?


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## nostawmama (Dec 29, 2011)

There are rather few hunting dogs that would be good around the farm yard. The prey drive would make both of those breeds undesirable around birds especially. I think you might have to pick one job or another. 

We have 2 choc labs, and a lab/weim mix. They are all great dogs, fenced in a 1/2 acre yard and bark when people are outside the fence. None are aggressive or snappy but I am making plans to keep them away from the fowl when I get them. Older dogs are probably going to be more challenging to train, especially hunters that have learned that fetching the ducks is their job! 

The only hunting AND working breed that I have any familiarity with is the Rhodesian Ridgeback. They were bred for protecting African settler homesteads as well as hunting lions in the bush. But dogs from working farms are generally located in TX or other SW states and are pretty expensive ($1200 for pups).

Perhaps your best bet would be to get a hunting buddy now and when you have time and the fencing, get an actual livestock guardian breed pup to train. If that path is one chosen- I must say I love my labs- but lonelyfarmgirl has a point, because labs are one of the most popular breeds, they do get over-bred and many adult dogs never had any training to speak of.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

While my experience with full blooded Labs isn't much, my opinion of them isn't quite as bad as farmgirl's, but my best ever dog was a Rottie/Lab that I would have put against the best of the best, she was that good.

My dad raised and trained German short hair pointers.
He hunted quail and dove with them and they were good at it.
The rest of what i can say about them isn't good and I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings who love them because they are great bird dogs.
But they were some of the dumbest animals I ever saw. (sorry.eep
I won't elaborate, but they definitely won't do what you listed as needs.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I have had one part bred lab cross- the most outstanding well balanced, courageous but with good judgement dog I have ever known. Then a purebred chocolate lab- who was decent, loyal, non-aggressive, cooperative. Both could be called back or would hunt at my direction. Both were good water dogs. The chocolate lab took on her duty of keeping ravens from landing and deer out. Both were females and would walk off lead but never getting out of sight- at least they insisted on being able to see me rather than my seeing them. Loyalty was both dogs outstanding characteristic. They would be polite to other people but were only interested in staying with me. They would relax when I wanted to and go when I wanted. Neither was barky.
I have never has a pointer but my neighbor had a female who was a very sweet girl who must have run miles every day. She was never still. She was always running and that was through age 16.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

I don't think you can have it both ways. It's a lot to ask of a dog to guard live fowl and flush/retrieve them in a hunt, too. 

Not familiar with the German Shorthair, we had one that wandered in here and it was a chicken killing machine. Gave it up to a breed rescue group ASAP. It seemed like it would be a great hunting dog but not a great pet. Aloof, no apparent desire to please, etc. A one trick pony.

Never had a purebred lab but have had several mixes and they were all great dogs. No predator problems with them here and they run a good bluff on strangers but I don't worry they will actually rip someone apart. Very easy to train to leave the chickens, calves, cats, whatever, alone. And, great companions, very eager to please. But I don't know if a lab from a hunting line would be so laid back and could they grasp the difference between your barnyard birds and what is in their genes to hunt.


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## cfuhrer (Jun 11, 2013)

Labs are large, unaware of their largeness, boisterous, slow to learn, not terribly bright and loud.

In my experience.


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

We've had a couple of labs. They were great & one of them retrieved lost baby chicks for me & I didn't know it till I looked in his mouth, which was soft.
I once owned a GSH & he was a running machine. Anytime he got out (this was when I lived in the city so he didn't get to do what he was bred for)
POOF, he would disappear. As soon as I backed out of the garage to go hunting for him, POOF he was back, waiting for a ride.:facepalm:


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

MO_cows said:


> I don't think you can have it both ways. It's a lot to ask of a dog to guard live fowl and flush/retrieve them in a hunt, too.
> 
> Not familiar with the German Shorthair, we had one that wandered in here and it was a chicken killing machine. Gave it up to a breed rescue group ASAP. It seemed like it would be a great hunting dog but not a great pet. Aloof, no apparent desire to please, etc. A one trick pony.
> 
> Never had a purebred lab but have had several mixes and they were all great dogs. No predator problems with them here and they run a good bluff on strangers but I don't worry they will actually rip someone apart. Very easy to train to leave the chickens, calves, cats, whatever, alone. And, great companions, very eager to please. But I don't know if a lab from a hunting line would be so laid back and could they grasp the difference between your barnyard birds and what is in their genes to hunt.


 These are my thoughts too - I know a lot of GSPs because I belong to a hunting club; they are born and bred to find birds (upland game, ducks, whatever), and without training will kill them (and probably eat them). If they didn't have that drive, they wouldn't make such great hunting dogs. But without training, they are not going to be very fun to hunt with, either...and definitely could not be trusted not to eat your chickens.

A lab might be a better choice, given the two options, but in theory they could be similar - a field bred lab should have a birdy prey drive, and be smart enough to be trained to retrieve. A "pet" or "back yard bred" lab might be neither birdy or smart...it's really hard to know until you meet the dog.

I'd say you would be better off deciding whether you want a hunting dog or a livestock/farm dog, or a pet. I think it *could* be possible to find 2 of the 3 in one breed...but not going to be easy to get a dog with 3 of those 3 traits - and especially not an adult (unless you know it already).


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## 92utownxj (Sep 13, 2013)

I've grown up with Labs and currently have a 10 year old chocolate. She's registered and from working dog lines. She's a big baby. Loves to be with me and has never met a stranger. She'll swim and play fetch for hours. I don't hunt with her, but she has been a great pet. She's a bit too curious about my chickens to leave her out near them. That's what she's bred for though. She's the only lab I've had that howls. Day or night if she's in her pen outside she starts yipping and it turns into a full howl. Never heard anything like it until her. She's a great dog and very laid back. I've seen some labs that are extremely hyper though. 

Like others have said about GSH, they have lots of energy. Growing a friend had one. She was a great bird dog, but was always on the move constantly.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Rather than make up your mind in advance based on generalities and breed stereotypes, why not just go down to the shelter and check out the dogs? See if you can have a "test drive" for a weekend with a dog that interests you, to see if it can leave your domestic birds alone. 

Almost any dog is a good "early warning system" and will let you know when someone is around. Geese and guineas are good for that, too. Any dog with a little size to it will be a deterrent to wild predators and unwanted humans. You just need some kind of sporting blood to get the flush and/or retrieve instincts. That leaves a lot of room for breeds and combinations of breeds.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> I've dealt with both.
> On every occasion in my life except 2 (they were both old and chocolate, strangely), every lab I have ever encountered was out of control, snappy or aggressive, untrustworthy around small livestock and uneasy around strangers. I hate them all. I've been charged by more than one in my life. I've personally encountered dozens of Labradors in many different parts of the country. They are over bred and poorly trained, in general. Because of my numerous personal experiences, they are my least favorite dog of all time."
> 
> That's interesting since they are one of the most popular breeds for therapy dogs, detection dogs, SAR, guide dogs and service dogs. Also considering they score higher then most other breeds on temperament tests pretty much leaves me to beleive that your severely exaggerating or have been blinded by your bias. I see very few dogs trained to the level of obedience as a field trained lab which tells me they have a higher then average level of intelligence and obedience. I'll stick to they obvious, most have good temperaments and are smart.


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## CedarGait (Apr 22, 2014)

Ive had all three... 

Labs are breed to hunt birds. The one I had as a child didn't have the hunt in him but would wander off but was very trainable. 

The GSP was not that smart, dog aggressive and had tons of energy.

The plot we had was a good dog but like most hounds loved to bark...
We have Treeing walker coonhounds now and are very similar to plots(bred to do same jobs) and I do NOT let them anywhere near my chickens if I can help it....
I agree with Mo cows... go to shelter and see if you can find one you like.
I takes a special dog to be good with chickens/ducks
Our male aussie is out 24/7 but will still chase them if I don't correct it when I see him thinking about it


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Seeing the mention of English Shepherds reminds me that they are much more like the sort of dog that would be useful on the farm. I wouldn't be surprised if they can't be trained to flush game and retrieve it too - very smart dogs bred to figure out what you want and work with you to do it. 

If you really want a hunting specialist, one to go out for a day in the field and help you bring home birds, you'll probably need two dogs and have to keep the bird dog separate from the farm birds. Possibly you can raise a good hunting dog as a pup and teach it the difference - get one that is intelligent and temperament tested to be willing and tuned into people. There are dogs in both breeds you mentioned that could do what you want, but they are likely to be the exception than the average dog. I'd go with a good Lab over the GSP though. GSP's tend to be higher energy and less mellow. Labs are physically very tough but, as a retriever, more people oriented. Pointing breeds are meant to run big, find birds and point them, Labs are bred to work close and retrieve under direction. My grandfather used to field trial Labs, he had some great dogs, wonderful family pets and very well trained from puppy hood to take direction - at 12 weeks old the pup would be sent to find his meals with hand signals, etc. 

I would think a lot would depend on you as a trainer - if you are skilled enough and willing to work with the puppy (or adult) quite regularly to teach it what you want it to know and to do.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

I don't like labs either. Neighbor has a nice one, hes just dumb as a box of rocks. Overbred. They meant to use him for ducks, but he was a $50 CL pup. Not exactly well bred.

GSPs... all the ones I hav known have been willing and sweet, ready to do what you want, but zero common sense. 

You can find all sorts of dogs in the shelter. I got a chihuahua from mine that is nothing like the stereotype. Sweet, quiet little guy. He used to hike with me, but now he''s so old he can't even walk to the prk. So he rides in the stroller basket under my toddler when he gets tired. 

You seem to be looking for a great deal of dog, without having the time to train. Perhas your best bet would be a retired breeding dog, who will come to you with basic manners and perhaps more. Course my shelter dog came to me house-trained and well behaved so you can find that anywhere if you can put in the time to hunt up a good one. Maybe even a CL dog being rehomed, never know. Just take your time to search.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

The thing I love about labs is their willingness to cooperate. The ones I've had and have known were anxious to please, which I loved because I am terrible at drilling a dog into perfection. I prefer one that looks to cooperate from the get go.

But I am consistent in what I ask and how I ask it, I expect from long horse training experience. So if a person had a lab and was scattered in their directions, as in ignoring an issue one moment, yelling at the dog another time or even encouraging stupid behavior another, that would frustrate the heck out of a dog like a lab. They would tend to get really excited as their anxiety to please would have no success. 

But stupid- not at all within the scope of their heritage. One of my favorite lab games was to pick a stick or object out, point in the direction and send the lab to find it. Then use commands like farther, left, right, no, close, that's it, to get her to pick and retieve the stick I wanted out of the piles. From a 100 feet away.

That's probably why there are so many breeds of dogs. It's simply easiest to find one that suits your style of training than force your dog to learn in the manner you prefer.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

GrannyCarol said:


> Pointing breeds are meant to run big, find birds and point them, Labs are bred to work close and retrieve under direction.
> 
> I would think a lot would depend on you as a trainer - if you are skilled enough and willing to work with the puppy (or adult) quite regularly to teach it what you want it to know and to do.


Well, I will disagree to a point - it really depends on the pointing breed and the specific breeding and intent of that breeding line. For example, if you want to Field Trial a Brittany - you NEED it to run big and find birds; they are often trialed on horseback, and handlers use scouts to find their dogs because they are so far out. 

But if you want to hunt (in real life) upland game in the northeast - the last thing you would want is a dog a mile away. So you would look to buy a dog that was NOT bred to run big and you'd also train it not to do so. Same with GSPs - a lot of my friends use them for *real* hunting in the northeast. A big running dog is not what they want; so they are bred and trained to work close. Pheasant hunting Nebraska? - you want a big running dog, or you may never find one. 

So...you really want to work closely with a breeder to know what the dogs have been bred for - and then (of course!) you have to train it - as you have pointed out as well! Very few dogs have prey drive AND restraint not to kill without specific training.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Yes, I was over generalizing, but they certainly do run. I was thinking of field trials. My own long time breed, English Setters, are (as the show strains) a much closer personal gun dog, but they do need exercise and will run and need to be trained to be around farmyard poultry. I'm pretty sure it would be hard. My current ES has her own yard and I wouldn't put her in with my ducks for sure. I got her as a retired show dog at age 3 though and she's just a pet. Not even a very smart one at that, but as sweet a dog as ever walked.


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## salliemae (Jan 10, 2015)

well folks, 
thanks so much for all the real world experiences with the dogs. didn't imagine I would get this much feedback...
As for a perfect dog in all 3 of it's main tasks at hand?...Don't need the dog to be A+ in any of the 3...but kinda like me, "jack of all trades, master of none." And most importantly, a willingness hopefully, in the dog to learn/please, even if he isn't just a pup. Time will tell. And, as another poster spoke of, regarding horse training, consistency is one of my forte's...and so the dog will certainly not be confused. Inconsistency also drives me mad ; ) 

Sure, each individual dog will have it's own personality...and I will certainly look for it. 

I will likely get a Lab mix...or if somehow I come across another at a shelter, that seems to lend itself to the tasks at hand...sure thing. It just would help if I found a dog from someone who could give me there actual experience with the dog. A retired hunting dog maybe...we will see.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

salliemae said:


> I will likely get a Lab mix...or if somehow I come across another at a shelter, that seems to lend itself to the tasks at hand...sure thing. It just would help if I found a dog from someone who could give me there actual experience with the dog. A retired hunting dog maybe...we will see.


Check into the breed rescue groups in your area - sometimes hunting dogs are placed into rescue with known backgrounds. You might just find the perfect one through lab or GSP rescue. (E.g. you might find a GSP in rescue that was surrendered because it wasn't a bold enough hunter - that might be what you'd prefer).


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## Deanmatt (Jan 13, 2015)

We have a GSP lab mix. He is a good dog and could do #2&3 on your request list non problem. He will tolerate my chickens free ranging as long as I am in the yard. I would not leave him out as a LGD full time. 

As you mentioned in your second post every dog is different. When we went to pick him out the guy who was rehoming/fostering them was recommending the really playful one who was all over the place attacking his siblings etc. we have a family and I wasn't so sure I wanted to chance getting a high strung GSP side pup. (The energy was my only concern of GSP.) the kids of coarse wanted the wide open one but I found the one who was keeping to himself some but still wanted to be played with. Ok being held down for a short period, etc.


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## salliemae (Jan 10, 2015)

OfftheGrid, 

thanks so much for that idea ; ) Didn't even know that specific dog breed rescue's existed...sounds good. I will certainly look into it!


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## salliemae (Jan 10, 2015)

Thanks for the post DeanMatt, 

I was curious about GSP/Lab mixes...don't seem very common. I did see a breeder online with them, but REALLY pricey ; ) Cool that you have one.


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

A lot of people around here use catahoulas both for hunting and for ranching, though the terrain around here is so rough you almost need a dog with good tracking skills to FIND the (half wild) cattle. It's very rugged with little flat ground, it's all brushy (can't see ten feet in places), and the cattle are spread out over grazing allotments that are a few square miles in size. I don't envy the cowboys when they round the cattle up in the fall to move them to the winter pastures ... and I am impressed by their riding skills and the skills of their dogs! Same dogs round up cattle and hunt lions and bears. (It's so rough that the foreman just gives us his phone # and tells us to call him if we see any cattle after the roundup concludes. They always miss a few. I texted him a picture of a young bull in a neighbor's front yard with a comment, "Is this yours?" somewhere around Thanksgiving last year, LOL.) 

Wouldn't trust a catahoula around small animals and poultry, however, and I'd be wary about using them on anything smaller than a cow without really knowing the dog. 

I've known hunting bred labs that were solid, stable, sane dogs, and overbred pet labs that were crazy and dangerous. Depends on the bloodline, the breeder, and probably the luck of the draw. The issue I personally have with labs is that they're not a long lived breed, and they're prone to both benign fatty tumors (I don't think I've ever seen an older lab without some) and malignant cancers, including bone cancer. The fatty tumors are often just a cosmetic issue, but I have seen dogs crippled by them if they crop up somewhere that affects function (like an armpit) or owners who've had to pay $$$$ for expensive, painful surgeries to avoid problems.


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## aoconnor1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Cygnet said:


> A lot of people around here use catahoulas both for hunting and for ranching, though the terrain around here is so rough you almost need a dog with good tracking skills to FIND the (half wild) cattle. It's very rugged with little flat ground, it's all brushy (can't see ten feet in places), and the cattle are spread out over grazing allotments that are a few square miles in size. I don't envy the cowboys when they round the cattle up in the fall to move them to the winter pastures ... and I am impressed by their riding skills and the skills of their dogs! Same dogs round up cattle and hunt lions and bears. (It's so rough that the foreman just gives us his phone # and tells us to call him if we see any cattle after the roundup concludes. They always miss a few. I texted him a picture of a young bull in a neighbor's front yard with a comment, "Is this yours?" somewhere around Thanksgiving last year, LOL.)
> 
> Wouldn't trust a catahoula around small animals and poultry, however, and I'd be wary about using them on anything smaller than a cow without really knowing the dog.
> 
> I've known hunting bred labs that were solid, stable, sane dogs, and overbred pet labs that were crazy and dangerous. Depends on the bloodline, the breeder, and probably the luck of the draw. The issue I personally have with labs is that they're not a long lived breed, and they're prone to both benign fatty tumors (I don't think I've ever seen an older lab without some) and malignant cancers, including bone cancer. The fatty tumors are often just a cosmetic issue, but I have seen dogs crippled by them if they crop up somewhere that affects function (like an armpit) or owners who've had to pay $$$$ for expensive, painful surgeries to avoid problems.


Cygnet, I noticed (finally) where you are located. What a beautiful part of Arizona! I grew up in Scottsdale, we used to camp on the rim in the summer in several areas. Always scared the bejeepers out of me driving up the mountain, but was worse coming back down! As an adult, it isn't any better on me, but at least I can pick my own speed

I love that part of the country, it always has wonderful memories for me. When we drive to Arizona, I always take 40 so I can go over the Rim and down through the mountains. I envy you living up there:happy2:


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

aoconnor1 said:


> Cygnet, I noticed (finally) where you are located. What a beautiful part of Arizona! I grew up in Scottsdale, we used to camp on the rim in the summer in several areas. Always scared the bejeepers out of me driving up the mountain, but was worse coming back down! As an adult, it isn't any better on me, but at least I can pick my own speed
> 
> I love that part of the country, it always has wonderful memories for me. When we drive to Arizona, I always take 40 so I can go over the Rim and down through the mountains. I envy you living up there:happy2:


It is a great part of the state. I grew up in Phoenix and camped and fished and backpacked all over this country. I'm so lucky to be able to live up here now. Wouldn't want to live anywhere else. 

I took the dog for a run this morning with the quad and saw elk and heard turkeys. We had fourteen inches of snow a few weeks ago, but now it's all gone and it's shirtsleeve weather. Gotta love this country.

(Pic below is from our back yard, credit to my dad for taking it. To keep this vaguely on topic, the dog on the left is my heeler-x-aussie, the dog on the right is of unknown breeding but I suspect malinois or gsp mix of some kind. He's in his mid to late teens. The dogs' presence discourage the elk from jumping the fence into the yard -- which they could if they really wanted to -- and there's some healthy respect on both sides. Both my dogs have been kicked by large animals, so they are not inclined to actually chase the elk, and the elk are not really afraid of the dogs but don't test the fence. When the elk show up, the dogs just "hang out" at the fence until the elk mosey on elsewhere. Not a lot of barking. I suspect, if I'd started her as a pup, the heeler-x-aussie could have done what the OP wants -- hunt/guard/bark at problems -- but she's an exceptional dog. I use her both for herding chickens into the barn and for guarding them, and she's completely and totally trustworthy around the goats. She only barks if it's a real issue. Only issue I've ever had with her is that she's obsessed with lizards, to the point of preferring to chase lizards than to work. She'll tree squirrels, and it wouldn't have taken much to get her flushing birds, I don't think. I had to discourage her from stalking quail and dove when she was younger because the birdies were more fun than rounding up goats ... Buuuut ... she's an unusual dog even for the breed type. Got the best of both breeds.)


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

Someone mentioned a Rhodesian ridgeback and I second that. I don't like either labs or pointers as general farm dogs because they do bark excessively at everything. Ridgebacks don't bark much, and are very protective/territorial. While they have a high prey drive (sight hounds) they are easily trained to leave chickens and small livestock alone. However, if you let them all those small predators won't stand a chance. We have never hunted with ours so I don't know what it is like to hunt with one. Although I did talk to a guy once in Georgia who said that is all he would hunt with. Don't know what he hunted or any specifics, just remember him saying that. Their only drawback is that they have a very dominant personality and can be a little stubborn...oh and never known one who wouldn't counter surf if they thought they wouldn't get caught. Extremely smart, thinking dogs.


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