# Have you ever changed your mind.....



## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

......about a major issue? 

There seems to be many who are quite passionate about their beliefs. (Yeah I know that's an understatement.  )

I don't think I have ever heard anyone say, " Geeze, you are right, I never thought about it that way, I've changed my mind about ________"


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

I used to be a lot more Hawkish, in my youth, when it comes to war. I am much more of a non-interventionist now.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

roadless said:


> ......about a major issue?
> 
> There seems to be many who are quite passionate about their beliefs. (Yeah I know that's an understatement.  )
> 
> I don't think I have ever heard anyone say, " Geeze, you are right, I never thought about it that way, I've changed my mind about ________"


I used to be conservative, although I never hated gays, gay marriage, and I've always been pro choice. Up until 3 months ago I was a registered Republican. I also believed in god once a upon a time.


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

I have been known to change my mind especially about matters of the heart. Generally, day to day, I make a decision and stick with it. We each evolve. I want people to allow me to be passionate and compassionate and to change my mind. I give others that courtesy too.


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## MattB4 (Jan 3, 2016)

roadless said:


> ......about a major issue?
> 
> There seems to be many who are quite passionate about their beliefs. (Yeah I know that's an understatement.  )
> 
> I don't think I have ever heard anyone say, " Geeze, you are right, I never thought about it that way, I've changed my mind about ________"


It is a rare person that publicly admits to changing their mind after a discussion or argument. Indeed the Japanese have a policy about this called, "saving face". 

Personally I will argue passionately and with all the logic I can muster about a issue. However, if I find myself in the wrong, I also will not hesitate to say so. I am not afraid or ashamed to be wrong. I would be ashamed to refuse to admit it after becoming aware that I am. Most people I have encountered do not share that concept. They are angered when proven wrong. They will lash out. Some quite violently. They will die before ever making a public admission of changing their views until after they had and in such a way as to appear that it was from their own efforts. 

Human nature :shrug:


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

I guess I am wondering about how one gets from point A to point B.
I definitely have a problem with 'in my face' kind of discussions, while I have to admit that I do read threads here that seem that way..... but after a while they get tedious. 

I do try to keep an open mind.....


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

MattB4 said:


> It is a rare person that publicly admits to changing their mind after a discussion or argument. Indeed the Japanese have a policy about this called, "saving face".
> 
> Personally I will argue passionately and with all the logic I can muster about a issue. However, if I find myself in the wrong, I also will not hesitate to say so. I am not afraid or ashamed to be wrong. I would be ashamed to refuse to admit it after becoming aware that I am. Most people I have encountered do not share that concept. They are angered when proven wrong. They will lash out. Some quite violently. They will die before ever making a public admission of changing their views until after they had and in such a way as to appear that it was from their own efforts.
> 
> Human nature :shrug:



I view that as ego, and it sure can be strong in me.......but life has a way of cutting that down to size!


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

I used to say I was surrounded by idiots. I moved.......


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Yes, I also used to be conservative and I changed to a more progressive path after actively trying to start listening to both sides and setting aside certain preconceived ideas that I'd had for many years and seeking more accurate information.
I sometimes agree with conservative ideas and don't always agree with progressive stances so I do try to weigh each issue separately.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

roadless said:


> I guess I am wondering about how one gets from point A to point B.
> I definitely have a problem with 'in my face' kind of discussions, while I have to admit that I do read threads here that seem that way..... but after a while they get tedious.
> 
> I do try to keep an open mind.....


I listen and read with an open mind and at the very least, if I don't change my position, I would hope to understand why someone feels as strongly about their position.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

That is why I registered as an independent, I find it tricky to align myself wholeheartedly with either.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

wr said:


> I listen and read with an open mind and at the very least, if I don't change my position, I would hope to understand why someone feels as strongly about their position.


I try to do the same, there must be some very compelling reasons for people to be as passionate as they are in certain areas.......when I can get a handle on that it softens me and I don't take things so personally.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Death penalty.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Darren said:


> Death penalty.


I have changed my views on the Death Penalty as well. I feel that some crimes warrant death as a punishment, but, I simply cannot trust the government to have that kind of power, so, I am more and more against it.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I used to think that liberals were people who hated America and wanted to turn us into a communist Country.

Then I realized that liberalism is simply a mental disease.
So instead of being angry with them all I feel now is pity.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> I used to think that liberals were people who hated America and wanted to turn us into a communist Country.
> 
> Then I realized that liberalism is simply a mental disease.
> So instead of being angry with them all I feel now is pity.


Conservativism linked to mental illness: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo.../is-political-conservatism-mild-form-insanity

Conservativism linked to low intelligence: http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> I used to be conservative, although I never hated gays, gay marriage, and I've always been pro choice. Up until 3 months ago I was a registered Republican. I also believed in god once a upon a time.


Not all conservatives hate gays.
I know gay conservatives
that's the kind of misinformation spread by the left to get the ignorant to vote democrat.
People should have to pass a test to vote.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

I know a guy who loves to argue, and I've actually witnessed him switch sides in the middle of an argument and act like you were the one putting forth his original argument.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> Not all conservatives hate gays.
> I know gay conservatives
> that's the kind of misinformation spread by the left to get the ignorant to vote democrat.
> People should have to pass a test to vote.


I totally and completely agree with passing a reading comprehension test to vote.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

basketti said:


> Conservativism linked to mental illness: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo.../is-political-conservatism-mild-form-insanity
> 
> Conservativism linked to low intelligence: http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html


I see more hatred and bigotry coming from "liberals" than I do conservatives
But maybe we are all mentally ill



> Are liberals mentally ill, spiritually depraved or just ignorant good-hearted people trying to improve society? Liberalism defined by Merriam-Webster: "a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race". It sounds nice but history has already proven that political liberalism is not beneficial. Unfortunately, many still adhere to its philosophy which has led many psychiatrists to examine this behavior.
> One such psychiatrist, Dr. Lyle Rossiter wrote the book:
> "The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness."
> "Psychopathology of the Liberal Mind: The adult drive toward omnipotent control of others, in any arena whatever, is rooted in fears of separation, abandonment loss or abuse--the residual effects of early attachment gone wrong. The need to dominate others arises from the tyrant's need for absolute assurance that the catastrophic loss of dependency or the pain of abuse so devastating to him in his earliest years will not be repeated."
> ...


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> I totally and completely agree with passing a reading comprehension test to vote.


And maybe a civics test
People should have to know something about what they are voting for, not just "Vote for Obama or you are a racist pig"
"Vote for Hillary because she has a uterus"
"Republicans hate women, gays, immigrants and kittens"
That's the nonsense that got an unqualified bigot elected the last couple go rounds.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

I have been told that I do to much analyzing. I don't consider myself conservative or liberal. I consider myself someone who thinks for themself and then makes an informed decision. Sometimes that means changing my mind. As a self thinker I may just go insane through this election year. I am not looking at democrat or rebublican. I am looking at the person who will make the best president for our country and the problems we face. Guess what, I can't find anyone that fits the bill in our current pool or as of yet I have not seen that aha there it is. Time is running out for one to emerge.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

grandma12703 said:


> I have been told that I do to much analyzing. I don't consider myself conservative or liberal. I consider myself someone who thinks for themself and then makes an informed decision. Sometimes that means changing my mind. As a self thinker I may just go insane through this election year. I am not looking at democrat or rebublican. I am looking at the person who will make the best president for our country and the problems we face. Guess what, I can't find anyone that fits the bill in our current pool. Now what?


That's kinda where I am, I'm not crazy about any of them.
I know Clinton would be a disaster, and I'm pretty sure Bush would be too.
Sanders is a lunatic, and so is Trump.
Listening to Cruz makes me itch, Rubio isn't ready (Obama 2.0?)
I like Carson, but he's kinda timid.
Who does that leave? :shrug:


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Cornhusker said:


> That's kinda where I am, I'm not crazy about any of them.
> I know Clinton would be a disaster, and I'm pretty sure Bush would be too.
> Sanders is a lunatic, and so is Trump.
> Listening to Cruz makes me itch, Rubio isn't ready (Obama 2.0?)
> ...


I've got an easy solution to your problem. Canada will load up a whole bunch of potential candidates and ship them down for review :grin:


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Why can't we just ship ALL the current candidates to Canada and start over with a new group? A random group couldn't be much worse than the clowns that are running now.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

roadless said:


> That is why I registered as an independent, I find it tricky to align myself wholeheartedly with either.


In some states, NY is one, if you're registered as an independent you can't vote in the primaries.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

In my youth I was closed minded on a variety of issues, as I age I try to see the other side of an issue, so yes, I have changed my opinions on quite a few things. 
I think of it as evolved deep thinking more than blindly holding on to what I thought I knew about everything.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> In some states, NY is one, if you're registered as an independent you can't vote in the primaries.


So? How is that a problem, you can only vote on one party.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> In some states, NY is one, if you're registered as an independent you can't vote in the primaries.


Yes, it is true for Pennsylvania also.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

coolrunnin said:


> So? How is that a problem, you can only vote on one party.


It's a problem if you want to vote in a primary.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

FourDeuce said:


> Why can't we just ship ALL the current candidates to Canada and start over with a new group? A random group couldn't be much worse than the clowns that are running now.



We'd love to take them off your hands but they need to speak both official languages before we can accept your most generous offer.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> Not all conservatives hate gays.
> I know gay conservatives
> that's the kind of misinformation spread by the left to get the ignorant to vote democrat.
> People should have to pass a test to vote.


That would eliminate just about all of the liberals and Democrats.
Lets face it, those people are parroting dolts.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

wr said:


> I've got an easy solution to your problem. Canada will load up a whole bunch of potential candidates and ship them down for review :grin:


Thanks, but we have enough politicians to outfit 10 planets like this one


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> In some states, NY is one, if you're registered as an independent you can't vote in the primaries.


Same here


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

Maybe I'll have to change my mind on how I registered.


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

roadless said:


> ......about a major issue?
> 
> There seems to be many who are quite passionate about their beliefs. (Yeah I know that's an understatement.  )
> 
> I don't think I have ever heard anyone say, " Geeze, you are right, I never thought about it that way, I've changed my mind about ________"


Yes but it has always been more of a transformation (taking years) than hearing someone say something and immediately changing my mind. 

I was raised an atheist but became a Christian in my twenties. I did not really have an opinion on abortion but then I had kids - now I have very strong feelings against it. I used to think it was immoral to have children other than through adoption because the world was overpopulated - then the biological clock started ticking when I turned 30 (alright, this one did take me by surprise ... hehe).


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

yes, I have changed my mind. I used to be conservative. Now, I am more conservative. As I see more of what goes on around this earth, and the filth, the evil, the scourge that is getting more prevalent each day, I get more conservative...

And no, I do not hate gays. Nor am I scared of them, as in phobia.


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

I switch parties almost every year. I look to see who is running, then choose the party that has someone I would vote for, or in some cases, I choose a party based on wanting to help make sure someone doesn't get the vote. My voter registrar once said I had the longest list of changes she'd ever seen. In the meantime, after the primary, I switch back to Independent so I don't get all the mailings and phone calls up to election day.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Cornhusker said:


> "Republicans hate women, gays, immigrants and kittens"
> .


thats just not true! As a republican and now a libertarian I always loved kittens. They are delicious!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I think that on many issues we all make minor changes.

The ones that seem to drive everyone crazy are the once womanizers/drunks that became Born Again Christians and can't wait to tell you what a sinner you are and how saved they are.
Right up there with them is the other obnoxious faction. The folks that once embraced the intact family, going to Church and helping those that help themselves, but now see the world would be better if everyone were Black, Gay, pro-abortion and Muslim. Ever ready to jump upon their soap box to criticize you for thinking you are equal to these oppressed minorities. Mere acceptance is still homophobic bigotry, you must acknowledge they are superior in every way. They demand the positive attention and expect your embrace of their values, yet cannot be expected to show any sliver of tolerance to the norms of the rest of society.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Have I ever changed my mind? No, not significantly but when they come out with those new brains, I am seriously thinking of getting one...


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

roadless said:


> ......about a major issue?
> 
> There seems to be many who are quite passionate about their beliefs. (Yeah I know that's an understatement.  )
> 
> I don't think I have ever heard anyone say, " Geeze, you are right, I never thought about it that way, I've changed my mind about ________"


I have.


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## BohemianWaxwing (Sep 13, 2014)

I would be curious to hear some specifics from some people who have changed their minds in one direction or the other. What, specifically, did you read/learn that precipitated the change? Especially on one of the hot-button issues that cause so many endlessly repeating arguments on these boards (e.g. abortion, global warming causes, etc.).

I would say that my general tendencies have drifted from fairly straight-laced social conservatism to a more libertarian position, but often that doesn't mean that my views on a particular subject have changed so much as my ideas of whether my choices should be forced on others by the strong arm of the government has changed.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

BohemianWaxwing said:


> *I would be curious to hear some specifics from some people who have changed their minds in direction or the other. What, specifically, did you read/learn that precipitated the change? Especially on one of the hot-button issues that cause so many endlessly repeating arguments on these boards (e.g. abortion, global warming causes, etc.).*
> 
> I would say that my general tendencies have drifted from fairly straight-laced social conservatism to a more libertarian position, but often that doesn't mean that my views on a particular subject have changed so much as my ideas of whether my choices should be forced on others by the strong arm of the government has changed.


This is what I was getting at with my question, but didn't express well!
Thank you!


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I have always believed in a women's right to abortion and still do. I however have over time become to believe it is not absolute. I believe that as medical advancement moves forward there should be lower limits on the allowable timing of abortion. This would be only abortion for non medical reasons. I also can't see that I would ever be okay with abortion limits on pregnancies less than 12 weeks but again you never know.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

roadless said:


> ......about a major issue?
> 
> There seems to be many who are quite passionate about their beliefs. (Yeah I know that's an understatement.  )
> 
> I don't think I have ever heard anyone say, " Geeze, you are right, I never thought about it that way, I've changed my mind about ________"


I have changed my mindset.
I have been humbled.
I have done 180's.
But I have never changed my morals.


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## brosil (Dec 15, 2003)

Sure. I changed my mind on drugs the other day. I read a book called Chasing The Scream by Johann Hari and couldn't find fault anywhere in his presentation. I now believe we should decriminalize drugs, move to a clinical treatment model and eventually legalize drugs like heroin. It looks like we aren't dealing with the real problem.


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## MattB4 (Jan 3, 2016)

BohemianWaxwing said:


> I would be curious to hear some specifics from some people who have changed their minds in one direction or the other. What, specifically, did you read/learn that precipitated the change? ...


I went from being a professed Christian over many decades to slowly realizing that all supernatural stories were simply the product of peoples creativity and imagination. It took a lot of debates, reading a lot and rereading, much thought with introspection to change from what is constantly reinforced by culture, entertainment and indeed historical accounts. The desire to believe stories is a human need. It is what the manipulators of others are using to accomplish their goals. Sometime good and other times for personal enrichment. 

In the process it made me much more conservative. Don't try to fix what is not broken. Don't embrace the new if the old values are better. Don't fool yourself with self justifications for doing things.


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## BohemianWaxwing (Sep 13, 2014)

MattB4 said:


> The desire to believe stories is a human need.


Stories are powerful things.

I've had some interesting conversations with my brother who recently converted to Greek Orthodox on the subject of "myth as truth". Sometimes stories present a truth that is deeper and richer than the mere facts can relate. 

I guess this brings up one area where I have changed my thoughts. I raised my two kids without telling them "lies" about Santa. If I had it to do over, I might not make the same choice a second time, recognizing that there is a truth behind the stories of the saint that transcends and enriches our lives in ways that a mere historical presentation of the literal man can't.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

Probably the biggest turn around I've had is religious but I think it's affected everything else in my life since. I was born and raised very strictly Christian and taught that everything and everyone outside of our sect was evil/filthy/going to Hell, etc. and when I left as a teenager I found that couldn't be farther from the truth. Those I met in the dark years after that treated me better than the people I was raised with and, in fact, saved my life. It's quite a turnaround for a 16 year old to learn that everything you have been raised to believe is wrong.

Ever since then I've been suspicious of any large establishment, be it big business, government, religion, big pharma and others and have relied more on proof of something than just being told stuff and expected to believe it. It's caused me to do a great deal more research into subjects than I might have if things had been different and I think I'm able to see and understand both sides of a lot of discussions. I am willing to change my point of view if someone presents a reasonable, respectful and factual explanation of their position and I"m proven wrong.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

I can tell you that a lot of city relatives and visitors, upon visiting our farm, have changed their minds about gmo crops, herbicide use, fertilizer use, etc. They came, expecting to see dead soil, no life, sprayers out every day, dousing the crops. They were amazed at the life in the soil in spite of fertilizer use. They learned why we do things the way we do it. They saw deer, moose, elk, innumerable songbirds, feeding in the fields happily. 

It is cool seeing it occur. They come, they ask questions, I show them my farm. They learn the truth, and they are thankful for it.

I have also seen many people in rough situations, drugs, alcohol, wild living, come to know Jesus Christ, and do a complete 360 in their lives. One of them is now a missionary in central america, building schools with his own money. No one forced them, no one made them, and no one could have made them change. They became convicted on their own, and recognized the only way out.

Several scientists, upon studying the genome, have also come to the realization that the complexities of a "simple" gene, could not possibly have come about by chance, and now recognize there is a Creator. 

On a personal level, A few months ago, I had a long talk with my Police man friend. I asked him about legalization of pot. He told me that he has ONCE stopped a person driving a vehicle, who was under the influence of pot. He told me on a personal, moral level, that he is against legalization, but that in practical terms, there is no reason not to legalize it.

He made no bones about the fact it is still a problem drug, a mind altering drug, and that it is not healthy for the body or brain. But in reality, he stated it would not change his job much from his perspective. So on the pot issue, I was completely rigid on the issue. I have now become much more open minded on it. I am still against drugs taking of any kind, but if a person is going to smoke, they are going to smoke, I guess...


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

farmerDale said:


> I can tell you that a lot of city relatives and visitors, upon visiting our farm, have changed their minds about gmo crops, herbicide use, fertilizer use, etc. They came, expecting to see dead soil, no life, sprayers out every day, dousing the crops. They were amazed at the life in the soil in spite of fertilizer use. They learned why we do things the way we do it. They saw deer, moose, elk, innumerable songbirds, feeding in the fields happily.
> 
> It is cool seeing it occur. They come, they ask questions, I show them my farm. They learn the truth, and they are thankful for it.
> 
> ...


I never really had a problem, morally or legally, with people smoking pot or doing other drugs but a lot of the research I have done on the subject has given me a different perspective. After viewing it as a strictly legal problem I was interested in stories like Portugal's decriminalizing of drugs and beginning to treat them more from a medical perspective than coming down harshly from a criminal standpoint. It's not the perfect solution but has had many positive effects and a lot less repeat incarcerations which saves a lot of money across the board. Throwing someone into a hardened prison population for simple possession is hardly going to have a good outcome. For a lot of people, drugs are just a symptom of more serious underlying problems and if we can address those it would reduce the drug use. I think a lot of people take a black and white stand on a lot of issues and aren't willing to explore other options which aren't the perfect solution but result in a lot less damage than just digging their heels in and forbidding something.

Your farm sounds like a wonderful place!


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> In some states, NY is one, if you're registered as an independent you can't vote in the primaries.


as it should be. Do you think you should get a vote on the next Pope? The class president of Podunk University? The door man manager of Trump Towers? No, because you're not a member of those groups. The parties are associations, which for right or frequently wrong, should get to set their own rules and select their own leaders. The right to free association MUST be also the right to not associate. Laws which allow people to cross parties at the drop of a hat are, IMO, unconstitutional. 

If you want to participate in a party's leadership selection process, join the party. I would like to vote in primaries in Florida, but I refuse to join either of the two corrupt main parties.


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## MattB4 (Jan 3, 2016)

DEKE01 said:


> as it should be. Do you think you should get a vote on the next Pope? The class president of Podunk University? The door man manager of Trump Towers? No, because you're not a member of those groups. ...


A concept that eludes many. Including even members of a group that do not wish to follow the rules of the group but still enjoy membership status.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

BohemianWaxwing said:


> I would be curious to hear some specifics from some people who have changed their minds in one direction or the other. What, specifically, did you read/learn that precipitated the change? Especially on one of the hot-button issues that cause so many endlessly repeating arguments on these boards (e.g. abortion, global warming causes, etc.).
> 
> I would say that my general tendencies have drifted from fairly straight-laced social conservatism to a more libertarian position, but often that doesn't mean that my views on a particular subject have changed so much as my ideas of whether my choices should be forced on others by the strong arm of the government has changed.


The old me >>> new me

Racist and anti-gay. I grew up in an all white, all Xian, gay-free, old South, prejudiced area and I believed what the adults said. Just like in Iran today, :whistlin: there were no gays. As a small child when a respected adult stands up during a church meeting and says, "My family is leaving this church if you let n-words in here," you think there must be something pretty bad about n-words. Racism was so much a part of the life (I remember separate bathrooms and water fountains) that it seemed normal. >>> Living in a diverse world it is easy to see that there are good and bad, smart and stupid, hard working and lazy among all peoples so it is better to discriminate the good from the bad based on things other than skin color.  It wasn't until I was a teen that I learned I was about half Indian, and about ~5% black. That was hidden from me as a kid so that we could join a white church and a white community pool. The absurdity of that showed me the illogical results of race hate. Likewise, working with and for gays showed me they are just as good/bad/squared away/messed up as everyone else. 

Republican >>> Libertarian When I turned 18, Reagan made me a conservative Repub. GHWB, GWB, and a host of RINO republican congressmen that only give lip service to Reaganism and the published Repub platform made me leave the Repubs.

Constitutionally ambivalent, I used to say it was a nice document but we shouldn't follow it "religiously. I had yet to read and study the doc >>> The USCONS is sacrosanct. Even when it is wrong (I sometimes think it is wrong) it should be followed to the letter and justices and pols shouldn't twist meanings to allow for the favored programs of the day. Because every time we open the door a little, it almost never closes again, but rather the pro-big-Fed-gov't crowd uses that opening to further increase fed power and reduce liberty. And that's part of what led me to Libertarianism. It took about 20 years of reading many sources to make that change. If anyone says arguing in forums never changes anyone's mind, I'm proof that is wrong when it comes to the Constitution. 

The world is going to heck in a handbasket >>> No, the world is getting better all the time. A look at the facts changed my mind. How do you measure a better world? Wealth, a lack of hunger, freedom, opportunity, tolerance of others? The pessimist can find lots and lots of extreme examples to show why this world still needs lots and lots more work and I'll agree, but in relative terms, the world as a whole has made huge strides towards the better on all those scales. 

In general, I used to be fairly intolerant of lots of people. Now I mostly (because I'm not perfect by a long shot) limit that intolerance to people who want to use gov't force to impose their politics and beliefs upon others.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

I am libertarian on most everything. I abhor the so-called "war on drugs" and believe that drugs should be decriminalized. I have no confidence in the Federal Government. It has shown itself to be too big, inefficient, less than intelligent, corrupt, liberty destroying, and totally lacking in the will or ability to follow simple instructions (the Constitution of the U.S.)

90% of our problems could be solved if only the Federal government could be kept within the bounds of the Constitution. 

I was raised to be lawful citizen with love for the Federal government, by parents who were born during the final years of the Great Depression. I have never been racist, or, a "homophobe". (actually part black) even thought I have been accused of both, often. This is because I follow the Constitution and do not believe in welfare programs, or, the Federal government having any type of say in marriage.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

I use to think I was a liberal. Then the recession hit and obama became president and my point of view changed. I realized a lot of the conservative ideas I grew up with made more sense to me. Conservatism seemed more logical and concrete. Liberalism and leftish thinking was more speculation and conjecture. In reality though, when things get rough leftist ways of doing things do not hold water and are not sustainable. 

I use to be apolitical. I declined from voting or caring about politics because I felt that it did not make a difference. Then Obama came along and I felt I needed to vote to keep him out of office. Not because he was black or a dem, but because for the first time I felt there was a person who could seriously alter the life I enjoyed in America. 

I am registered Rep but lately I am considering giving it up.

I was pro drugs as a youth. Now, I am anti drugs. I am becoming strongly against pot also. I use to think it was silly to consider it a gateway drug but now I consider it seriously as a gateway drug. Many adults smoke pot like it is nothing. I am not into that. I was told that drugs were bad and that they would damage you life. I did not believe that. I believe that now because I have seen it happen to people and it is true.

I use to believe in the melting pot idea, where we could all mix and make a better world. I see now that that idea is silly and could never exist. I think humanity is greatly disserved by mixing everyone together into one big homogenized blob of conformity. Cultural complexity is given over to simplicity. The loss of unique cultures all over the world greatly reduces choice and the freedom of ideas, it robs humanity of deeper cultural creativity. 

I use to wish all the races could live together like one big family but sadly that will never happen and I changed my mind on that. Rather then live in racial antagonism I think now that simply living peacefully apart is the only way for all the races to be happy. We just can't get along. We tried and it does not work.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

I use to be very religious Now I am not. I got tired of being treated as an ATM machine by churches. I was raised catholic. I was never happy there but it was my religion and religion of my great great grandparents. In the words of Tevye it was Tradition, Tradition! The child abuse scandals put the final nails in that coffin for me. What sealed the deal was not the wide spread abuse (which is bad of course) but the blatant neglect of the bishops and other higher ups to do anything about the abuse even after being informed and receiving confessions of the crimes from the priests. Sickening. 

I do not believe in any organized religion now.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

City Bound said:


> I use to think I was a liberal. Then the recession hit and obama became president and my point of view changed. I realized a lot of the conservative ideas I grew up with made more sense to me. Conservatism seemed more logical and concrete. Liberalism and leftish thinking was more speculation and conjecture. In reality though, when things get rough leftist ways of doing things do not hold water and are not sustainable.
> 
> I use to be apolitical. I declined from voting or caring about politics because I felt that it did not make a difference. Then Obama came along and I felt I needed to vote to keep him out of office. Not because he was black or a dem, but because for the first time I felt there was a person who could seriously alter the life I enjoyed in America.
> 
> ...


You believe in segregation?


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

basketti said:


> You believe in segregation?


 No. I think every group should have their own country so that we can all live the way we need to live. Obviously, living together does not work, even though many of us sincerely tried and wished it would. The more we mingle the more cultural and racial clashing we have. Sadly, we never find a common ground and we never will.


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## Sourdough (Dec 28, 2011)

When I got married, I discovered the key to domestic peace and great sex, required a change of mind'set. "Yes, "DEAR" you are right, and I am wrong, I don't know what I was thinking. What's that.......??? Yes, "DEAR you are right, I was being a male pig and not thinking, it will never happen again."



BohemianWaxwing said:


> I would be curious to hear some specifics from some people who have changed their minds in one direction or the other. What, specifically, did you read/learn that precipitated the change?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

City Bound said:


> No. I think every group should have their own country so that we can all live the way we need to live. Obviously, living together does not work, even though many of us sincerely tried and wished it would. The more we mingle the more cultural and racial clashing we have. Sadly, we never find a common ground and we never will.


What would you do with biracial couples and their offspring?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

If I changed my mind, I'd be wrong.:shrug:


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

basketti said:


> What would you do with biracial couples and their offspring?


I wouldn't do anything thing with them. I am not god and I cant change the world. I was just sharing that my point of view changed based on the evidence life has presented me. The world is way too mixed up now to ever give people the choice to separate themselves and live as they need to live racially and culturally. 
We are stuck with the chaos and conflict. 

This thread is not abut me and I would prefer that it does not get sidetracked. Some mixed couples last and some don't. I have seen mixed couples pulled apart because of a difference in race and culture. I have multiple family members who could not make a mixed marriage work. They tried, they both loved each other, they wanted it to work, but in the end the differences drove them apart. The difficulty and the decision to break up was mutual. The difficulty comes in for many mixed couples when they have to deal with in laws and when they have children. When the children are born cultural clashing can arise in deciding which way to raise the child. What religion and traditions will be passed on to the kids can be a major conflict. Some people try to mix the two cultures and tradition but that rarely ever works and the child often grows up without any strong cultural roots or identity. Some couples will decide to let one parents culture be the dominant culture passed on to the kids and then the other parent becomes a silent influence in their own child's life. Sometimes in these kinds of families one parent and the children speak a complete different language in the home that the other parent does not even understand. The other parent is like a ghost and a stranger in their own home.

I was engaged to marry an Asian woman long ago and her family forbid her marrying me because I was not Asian. She disagreed with her family up until the point when we discussed children. she changed her mind when she thought about the reality of having kids with me. Our kids would look Asian and I would be the one sticking out like a sore thumb she said. She told me that one of her relatives married a white European guy and the whole family shunned him, even his own kids eventually shunned him because they considered themselves Asian and different from their own father.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Cornhusker said:


> If I changed my mind, I'd be wrong.:shrug:


 or they would be right. haha


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## MattB4 (Jan 3, 2016)

Serendipity and odd attractors. I can feel a mind change coming about. Could be this Thread bringing it about or it could be a confluence of other events. 

Should be a interesting journey.


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

I did not change my mind, but my mind was changed when I became a new creation in Christ.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

IMO, only those that will look at all sides of an argument with an open mind can ever change their mind. Also my opinion that those that say "this link is bad because of....." do not have an open mind about _*that*_ subject. Everyone tells or writes a story with some kind of slant. So how will you learn if you don't read/hear both sides?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

City Bound said:


> I use to wish all the races could live together like one big family but sadly that will never happen and I changed my mind on that. Rather then live in racial antagonism I think now that simply living peacefully apart is the only way for all the races to be happy. We just can't get along. We tried and it does not work.


Integration does work. This I know for fact. I was born into a sharecropper family. Forget about what you have heard or read I can tell you how it was. 

There were houses placed about 15 feet apart scattered with black, white and migrant families. It was first come first served so your neighbor might be black, white or not even speak English at all. We not only got along but we thrived with a little "micro" community. You didn't see color, you didn't see language barriers. You saw someone you would help if they were in need and they saw someone they would help also. This was in the Jim Crow days too. I could go into a long history lesson about why we thrived and others didn't but its late tonight. 

It does really work. Don't believe what you hear. Segregation is the enemy. Perceived slights are the enemy. People cant just assume everything is racist. Enough things are as it is.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

basketti said:


> What would you do with biracial couples and their offspring?


Different countries???


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

mreynolds said:


> Different countries???



I would have gladly sent mine to different countries for at least 8 years.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> Integration does work. This I know for fact. I was born into a sharecropper family. Forget about what you have heard or read I can tell you how it was.
> 
> There were houses placed about 15 feet apart scattered with black, white and migrant families. It was first come first served so your neighbor might be black, white or not even speak English at all. We not only got along but we thrived with a little "micro" community. You didn't see color, you didn't see language barriers. You saw someone you would help if they were in need and they saw someone they would help also. This was in the Jim Crow days too. I could go into a long history lesson about why we thrived and others didn't but its late tonight.
> 
> It does really work. Don't believe what you hear. Segregation is the enemy. Perceived slights are the enemy. People cant just assume everything is racist. Enough things are as it is.


Thank you for sharing your real world experience.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

It's funny how the generations change. I'll be 50 this year, the oldest of eight and my youngest sister is 19 years younger than me. My social circle is almost exclusively white, probably because I grew up that way. My schools had a minimum of kids from other races although we all got along fine. My next two sisters are like me, mostly white social circle. Next are my two brothers who have more friends of minority groups, mostly black and Asian. My last three sisters have a very diverse social circle. My second youngest sister is engaged to a guy from India, her social circle is heavily Indian and, as he owns some rooming houses in Toronto near the University of Toronto, they are in contact with students who come from all over the world and become close friends with them. My youngest sister had a boyfriend from Sri Lanka for a couple of years and her friends list on Facebook has very few white people on it. I can't say I've changed so much on race because I've never really had a big problem with other people but my younger siblings have made me more comfortable socializing with other cultures and I think it's enriched my life.

We all get along great. Our social circles mix a lot of the time and we end up with a lot of common friends who overlap generations. Lots of racial jokes float around at social gatherings mostly made by the race that the joke is aimed at. We all make fun of ourselves and each other. I think the different races and cultures can live peacefully with each other, I believe it's religion that is the most divisive.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

City Bound said:


> No. I think every group should have their own country so that we can all live the way we need to live. Obviously, living together does not work, even though many of us sincerely tried and wished it would. The more we mingle the more cultural and racial clashing we have. Sadly, we never find a common ground and we never will.


This is soooooo wrong on so many levels, I don't know how to tackle it without being insulting. I'll try...

So you don't think each race having their own country is segregation? No, that is exactly what segregation is. 

_[seg-ri-gey-shuh n]

noun
1. the act or practice of segregating; a setting apart or separation of people or things from others or from the main body or group:
gender segregation in some fundamentalist religions.
2. the institutional separation of an ethnic, racial, religious, or other minority group from the dominant majority.
3. the state or condition of being segregated, set apart, separated, or restricted to one group: Segregation on buses meant that the seats at the front were reserved for white passengers.
the segregation of private clubs.
_

And while there is a twisted truth that there are only racial clashes were races are mixed, that misses the fact that the vast majority, like 99+% of people in countries mixed by racial, religious, ethnic, and other minority groups get along just fine, going about their daily business, raising families and being productive. I'm not defending illegal immigration, I vigorously oppose ILLEGAL immigration, but with 11+M illegals in the US, to get to 1% violent crime rate you would have to have 110,000 violent illegal violent criminals each year. It just ain't so. In fact their are reports that illegal immigrants commit fewer violent crimes than US citizens. 

Do you really think separating by race or any other class is going to lead to peace an prosperity? Your twisted truth ignores facts. If we back up a few centuries to places where there was only one race, did people get along better? Did Arabs kill Arabs? Africans kill Africans? Northern Europeans kill Northern Europeans? How about white Catholics killing white protestants and vice versa. The Japanese didn't mind the fact that the 300K killed in the rape of Nanking were also Asian. When Hitler killed 12M Jews and Gypsies, he and they were only different shades of the same color. 

The history of man's inhumanity to man is gruesome and extends at least as far back as cave drawings. Man has always found reasons to discriminate, hate, and kill. But the good news is that on a worldwide basis, in spite of some very bad places featured on the evening news, violence has been on the down trend for many decades, all the while there has been ever more mixing of different peoples.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

DEKE01 said:


> This is soooooo wrong on so many levels, I don't know how to tackle it without being insulting. I'll try...
> 
> So you don't think each race having their own country is segregation? No, that is exactly what segregation is.
> 
> ...


Have you ever been to a country where one race, one history, one ethnicity, one culture and for the most part one religion dominate? 
If you have, then you might have noticed that they are very peaceful and orderly societies regardless of race. 

Have you ever been to a major city like New York? If you did then you might notice that different ethnic groups, races, sexual preference, and religions separate themselves into little communities by choice. It is a choice the people make because they want to be where they feel they belong. They want to be where they feel understood and where they can relate to their neighbor. They want to be where they can live their culture. 
In the end though, that is how they keep some level of peace and law. It is the easiest way to prevent people who are already over crowded and stressed out from clashing and being hostile. 

I don't think anyone can honestly say race relations in America are good. At best, and by best I mean at the very least, we struggle to maintain basic civility. Many people will agree with that but then they say "Yes, but!" and give some optimistic explanation of how we are going to fix it. In regard to the OP, I waited 40 years for things to get better. I was inspirited and believed whole heartedly in the sentiments of Rev King's "I Have A Dream" speech. I did everything I could to help to try to bring that change about, but in the end Rev King's dream turned out to be just a dream. I have no malice towards people. I want us all to live in peace and be happy. But, all the recent riots and protests, the coercion of a university, the murder of church goers, 9/11, the California terrorist shootings, the stupid nonsense over the Emmy awards, and on and on, simply proves we can not get along. Like a marriage gone bad the only thing to do is try to have a civilized divorce and go ones separate ways to live peacefully as they see fit. 

We are all to blame, every race, every religion, every political ideology. I think the adage applies: "if you can't play nice, don't play at all." If that worked for mothers and teachers in keeping uncivilized and wild children from killing each other over a toy then why wouldn't it work to prevent uncivilized and wild people like myself and the rest of humanity from killing each other for stupid reasons.

Before I changed my mind I would have been you in this discussion and I would have been saying the same things you said. I would have had full faith in my convictions and felt them to be morally sound. From a spiritual perspective I agree with you but from an everyday nuts and bolts perspective that spirituality rarely works. 

Good fences make good neighbors.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

City Bound said:


> Have you ever been to a country where one race, one history, one ethnicity, one culture and for the most part one religion dominate?
> If you have, then you might have noticed that they are very peaceful and orderly societies regardless of race.
> 
> Have you ever been to a major city like New York? If you did then you might notice that different ethnic groups, races, sexual preference, and religions separate themselves into little communities by choice. It is a choice the people make because they want to be where they feel they belong. They want to be where they feel understood and where they can relate to their neighbor. They want to be where they can live their culture.
> ...


Lets use Japan or India as examples of a countries where they are or were of one history and color. Well conflict exists big time. They have and always have had racists, sexist, religious and class problems. You may think everything is calm and peaceful but that is only on the surface.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

painterswife said:


> Lets use Japan or India as examples of a countries where they are or were of one history and color. Well conflict exists big time. They have and always have had racists, sexist, religious and class problems. You may think everything is calm and peaceful but that is only on the surface.


Those countries have their problems but their problems would be worse if they had to also deal with integrating different races. 

I have been going to Poland every year for over a decade now and it is a peaceful society. Crime is relatively low. Of course they have their cultural problems there, like alcoholism, but every community and ethnic group has problems related to their cultural expression and genetic make up. Poland is still polish and that is why they are peaceful society. 90% of poles are catholic, 9% are other Christian persuasions, and 1% are mix of islam, Buddhism, and hinduism. The people have unity there and you can feel it when you are there. They are a people.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

City Bound said:


> Those countries have their problems but their problems would be worse if they had to also deal with integrating different races.


Race isn't the problem, it's the culture.
In my little home town, we are admittedly heavy on the Caucasian side, but we do have Hispanics, Indians, and a few blacks.
The funny thing is, nobody really seems to notice, nobody seems to care.
They are accepted just like anybody else, and for the most part, this town is color blind.
They don't run around playing Snoop Droopy Drawers, they don't blast rap music at full volume, they don't play the knock out game, they don't spit on our flag, they don't mark up the town with graffiti, they don't curse at old ladies, they don't steal, vandalize, loot or burn down buildings.
In other words, our culture is ours, whites, blacks and all colors in between.
and nobody better try to take it away from us.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

City Bound said:


> Those countries have their problems but their problems would be worse if they had to also deal with integrating different races.
> 
> I have been going to Poland every year for over a decade now and it is a peaceful society. Crime is relatively low. Of course they have their cultural problems there, like alcoholism, but every community and ethnic group has problems related to their cultural expression and genetic make up. Poland is still polish and that is why they are peaceful society. 90% of poles are catholic, 9% are other Christian persuasions, and 1% are mix of islam, Buddhism, and hinduism. The people have unity there and you can feel it when you are there. They are a people.


Is it only the mostly white countries that get along? You seem to dismiss the problems in other than white countries.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Cornhusker said:


> Race isn't the problem, it's the culture.
> In my little home town, we are admittedly heavy on the Caucasian side, but we do have Hispanics, Indians, and a few blacks.
> The funny thing is, nobody really seems to notice, nobody seems to care.
> They are accepted just like anybody else, and for the most part, this town is color blind.
> ...


 That is great. What happens when Caucasians become the minority there, do you think the culture will change? Do you think they will respect yor cultural differences?

Not far from where I live we had one middle easterner who ran a gas station in a harmoniously mixed area. The man eventually brought his family over and bought a house on the block behind the gas station. Then they brought over another family. Then that family brought another over, and on and on until 20 years later the whole area is now muslim. The situation keeps escalating and they want to rip down homes and build a super mosque right in the middle of a residential area. In the past year women in Burkas are popping up all over the area.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

City Bound said:


> That is great. What happens when Caucasians become the minority there, do you think the culture will change? Do you think they will respect yor cultural differences?
> 
> Not far from where I live we had one middle easterner who ran a gas station in a harmoniously mixed area. The man eventually brought his family over and bought a house on the block behind the gas station. Then they brought over another family. Then that family brought another over, and on and on until 20 years later the whole area is now muslim. The situation keeps escalating and they want to rip down homes and build a super mosque right in the middle of a residential area. In the past year women in Burkas are popping up all over the area.


I don't think radical muslims would like it here


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

I recall being skeptical that trickle-down economics would benefit lower income people. But Reagan was pushing it and the country was behind it. I decided to embrace it. I waited and observed, hoping for the best.

Regan's plan was implemented for both of his terms, then in GHWB's term. That was trying trickle-down economics (by then it was dubbed "Reaganomics") for 12 years straight. The successes if the system were basically evaluated by the American people at presidential elections times.

*1. Reagan's reelection:* Trickle-down economics had been implemented for 4 years with no real success. But Reagan said that it was really a 6 year plan, so to be fair we needed to give more time.
*2. GHWB's election: *Trickle-down economics had been implemented for 8 years, still with no real success. Reagan & Bush said that the lack of success wasn't their fault, but the fault of the democratic congress not allowing the plan to be fully implemented. GHWB was elected in the promise that the success of Reaganomics was right around the corner.
*3. Clinton's election:* Trickle-down economics had been implemented for 12 years, STILL with no real success. After 12 years the American people had had enough. They didn't believe that it would every work, so Clinton was elected.

Out of desperation, I bought into trickle-down economics. I gave it a fair chance, and then some. But after 12 years of getting screwed while watching the wealthy get wealthier, I stopped being a believer.

So I change my mind. But not through argument. I changed my mind by observing failed policy for more than a decade.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

painterswife said:


> Is it only the mostly white countries that get along? You seem to dismiss the problems in other than white countries.


 
No I didn't say that. Reread all my posts. 

All the races fight amongst themselves as well as fighting other races.


The example of Poland was to show that the majority of the people in the country are the same race, same ethnicity, and the same religion and as a result it is a peaceful unified place to live. 

There are Asian and African examples of countries that get along and are peaceful places to live also. I am not trying to demonize any race.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

Cornhusker said:


> I don't think radical muslims would like it here


 They may not like it but they are here living among us. I use to walk past the Mosque here in Brooklyn where 9/11 was planned. It was on my way to the post office. I was friendly for years with a shop owner who went to that mosque. For all I know he could have been part of the planning of 9/11. I didn't know at the time. It is most likely that part of the money that I spent at his shop went to fund terrorism, but I did not know it at the time.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

City Bound said:


> Have you ever been to a country where one race, one history, one ethnicity, one culture and for the most part one religion dominate?
> If you have, then you might have noticed that they are very peaceful and orderly societies regardless of race.
> 
> Have you ever been to a major city like New York? If you did then you might notice that different ethnic groups, races, sexual preference, and religions separate themselves into little communities by choice. It is a choice the people make because they want to be where they feel they belong. They want to be where they feel understood and where they can relate to their neighbor. They want to be where they can live their culture.
> ...


I see that you live in NY city. That may be why you feel that way. I was there once for about ten hours. (never again) I felt the pressure of everyone fighting for that one square foot. I was even fighting for mine in less than ten hours there. I admit it. When the Holland tunnel is free on Sunday no one is safe. 

Maybe you need to move to the country and see how it is there. You might be surprised.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Is it wrong that every time I see this thread title, I think of my ex husband?


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

mreynolds said:


> I see that you live in NY city. That may be why you feel that way. I was there once for about ten hours. (never again) I felt the pressure of everyone fighting for that one square foot. I was even fighting for mine in less than ten hours there. I admit it. When the Holland tunnel is free on Sunday no one is safe.
> 
> Maybe you need to move to the country and see how it is there. You might be surprised.



I am going to move to the country someday, that is if there is still a rural America to move to when I am ready to go.

The city is like a microscopes view into a social pressure canner. The city draws to the surface the fundamental issues at play on a subconscious and unconscious level. The city is like a psychology experiment where you lock a group of different people into a small room with no windows for a year. Eventually, primal issues surface and conflicts and insanity flare. The same primal drives and issues exist in the country but perhaps that nerve of volatility is agitated less because you guys are not all piled on top of each other with no elbow room.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

City Bound said:


> I am going to move to the country someday, that is if there is still a rural America to move to when I am ready to go.
> 
> The city is like a microscopes view into a social pressure canner. The city draws to the surface the fundamental issues at play on a subconscious and unconscious level. The city is like a psychology experiment where you lock a group of different people into a small room with no windows for a year. Eventually, primal issues surface and conflicts and insanity flare. The same primal drives and issues exist in the country but perhaps that nerve of volatility is agitated less because you guys are not all piled on top of each other with no elbow room.


I cant find anything to disagree with there. But I had a NYer neighbor one time. For the first two months he was always on edge. Like everyone was out to get one over on him. He wasn't racist per say he just was suspicious of everyone. After a year here he was breathing easy and having a good time. 

Curious, if you can afford NY, how can you not afford the country?


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