# Gay Boy Scouts



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/23/18447459-boy-scouts-vote-to-lift-ban-on-gay-youth?lite
This is all very interesting to me. Lets talk about it. I think this puts us on odd footing. I don't think anyone would have wanted me to be sleeping in a tent with their daughter when I was that age. It's an interesting can of worms. I'm all for gays being treated fairly, but... It reminds me of one day in my neighborhood bar in Boston. The bar was next door to a community health center that catered to gays, lesbians and transgenders. (why do lesbians need to differentiate themselves?) I walked in one afternoon and there was a person setting there that was obviously a ... person who was becoming a woman. The bartender was named Fat Tony. (just picture that) This bar was a dive, but it had a really nice ladies room that they were very proud and protective of. We were all used to having people of all walks in there. It was a jam up place! There were only a few people in the bar at the time, and I asked Fat Tony, "Tony, if that person get up to go to the bathroom, which bathroom are you going to let them use?". You should have seen his face as that dilemma dawned on him 
So?


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Stereotypes, anyone? 

" I don't think anyone would have wanted me to be sleeping in a tent with their daughter when I was that age. "

Why not? 

Young girls have their friends over For home sleepovers Everywhere Without the presumption, they will be preyed upon, during the night, by an adult male.

Child molestation Is a behavioral issue, Nothing more.

Everything else is just stereotyping.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Duplicate post


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Boy scouts goes up to 17 years old, so some kids will have reached that age where they are curious and/or may want to experiment. This is a basic reason why we don't allow boys and girls to have coed sleepovers. They would sleep in separate rooms according to gender. If my son was camping with other kids I would expect the same. Gay people consider themselves a different gender, so they should sleep and shower separately.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> Stereotypes, anyone?
> 
> " I don't think anyone would have wanted me to be sleeping in a tent with their daughter when I was that age. "
> 
> Why not?


Apparently some people aren't worried about their 14 year old daughter getting pregnant? I'm not talking about an adult molestation, but another minor.


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## oth47 (Jan 11, 2008)

Of all the organizations to bow to political correctness,I never thought it would be the BSA..


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

wendle said:


> Apparently some people aren't worried about their 14 year old daughter getting pregnant? I'm not talking about an adult molestation, but another minor.


I'm not really sure what you are talking about.


My point was that all adults are supposed to know, The difference between right and wrong, when around children - And act accordingly - Always.

Gender or sexual orientation has nothing to do with it.


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## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

oth47 said:


> Of all the organizations to bow to political correctness,I never thought it would be the BSA..


 I don't think they bowed to political correctness but to losing so much sponsorship money.Money is usually behind most decisions.They would have bowed to political correctness for sure if they allowed the adults to be gay also.


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## Jeffery (Oct 25, 2011)

Boy Scout Oath

On my honor, I will do my best 
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; 
To help other people at all times; 
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

oth47 said:


> Of all the organizations to bow to political correctness,I never thought it would be the BSA..


Lol This is About money not.values.

Scout Membership has been declining for decades.

BSA executives want to make sure, those great paychecks keep coming.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

oth47 said:


> Of all the organizations to bow to political correctness,I never thought it would be the BSA..


I sure never thought it would happen.
And the LDS church is really going to be upset learning this. They just "cut off" all of their BSA backings. You just maybe seeing the end of scouting, this maybe the straw the broke the camels back.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> I'm not really sure what you are talking about.
> 
> 
> My point was that all adults are supposed to know, The difference between right and wrong, when around children - And act accordingly - Always.
> ...


You don't let kids of different genders sleep together. At least I wouldn't. I sure wouldn't let my kids sleep over in a home that did either. By the same token I wouldn't let my 14 year old daughter bring over a boy for a sleep over. If she was gay I wouldn't let her bring a girl over for a sleep over. What she does as an adult of course is her business. Those who are in charge of the boy scouts should take care of kids responsibly. That would include now allowing kids of different genders to sleep in the same cabins or tents.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

We have 4 different genders, male, female, male(gay), female(gay). I suspect if it wasn't known that the boy was gay in boy scouts he would sleep in the same cabin with the rest. Gay is about sexual orientation. It has nothing to do with race, or how good a person is.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

plowjockey said:


> I'm not really sure what you are talking about.
> 
> 
> My point was that all adults are supposed to know, The difference between right and wrong, when around children - And act accordingly - Always.
> ...


Don't be obtuse. The issue is obvious. Normal folks don't let teens of the opposite sex sleep or otherwise cavort with each other. It has nothing to do with being anti gay.

Gays/ lesbians have an issue in that they are attracted to their same sex.

At sleep away camp do you let them shower with eye candy? No.
each other? more eye candy.. :umno: 
The opposite sex. How cool would that be for the strait teen boys? A naked girl! I just don't see it as likely.

So the best that can happen is for them to be excluded from certain group activities. So they can't be a full member while maintaining a moral and ethical situation. So lets push the gays into situations where they are to be an outcast. Why?


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

plowjockey said:


> Stereotypes, anyone?
> 
> " I don't think anyone would have wanted me to be sleeping in a tent with their daughter when I was that age. "
> 
> ...


Dude, what's in your head?  I'm talking about children and youth of the same or similar age, but differing sexual orientations.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Wow, such a problem! Life was so much simpler before gays came out of their closets. We didnt have to worry about them being in the boy scouts when I was a young lad... of course they were there.... but nobody gave it a second thought coz they didnt know which kids were gay and which were not. Ignorance does seem to be bliss.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

Don't know much about how Boy Scotts work except what I've seen in movies. I always thought they went camping in the woods, slept in tents etc. Do they shower together? Do they sleep more than one to a tent?

If they do I can see where that would be a problem. Are we implying that somehow gay youth don't have the same desires that straight youth have? Are we so afraid of not being PC that good common sense has been tossed out the window? If so then why not let Brownies and Boy Scotts go co-ed? 

I wouldn't let my underage daughter shower or sleep with a boy or my son with a girl, although at that age my sons would have assured me it was all perfectly innocent:whistlin:


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

dixiegal62 said:


> Don't know much about how Boy Scotts work except what I've seen in movies. I always thought they went camping in the woods, slept in tents etc. Do they shower together? Do they sleep more than one to a tent?
> 
> If they do I can see where that would be a problem. Are we implying that somehow gay youth don't have the same desires that straight youth have? Are we so afraid of not being PC that good common sense has been tossed out the window? If so then why not let Brownies and Boy Scotts go co-ed?
> 
> I wouldn't let my underage daughter shower or sleep with a boy or my son with a girl, although at that age my sons would have assured me it was all perfectly innocent:whistlin:


When I was in scouts....

We Hiked, camped, swam, showered, ate, and did the rest as a unit. It was meant to instill a sense of belonging and teach team work to the boys. Yes we did barn near everything as a group. You were in a troop. Organized not unlike a military platoon.

Yes we showered before eating dinner at summer camp. It was required. During single night trips, not usually.
Yes, generally it was at least two in a tent. On hiking trips, it could be 3 or 4. the guy carrying the tent, the guys carrying the food, the guy carrying the cooking stuff. So the weight was shared. You worked as a team.

P.S. I think you mean girl scouts and boy scouts...

I believe the girl scouts have gotten all soft in the middle. They are no longer what they once were. I no longer support then even to the point of not buying Samoas. .


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

vicker said:


> Dude, what's in your head?  I'm talking about children and youth of the same or similar age, but differing sexual orientations.


Your OP is confusing then, at least to me, when you discussing gays in bars and Boy Scouts. Which I assumed was scout leaders being gay

I missed where boys and girls sleeping together, had anything to do, with your point.

My mistake.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I'm not going to comment on the subject matter, but I did find it really ironic they held the vote at the Gaylord Texan... (which by the way I stayed at for a conference.. really nice place, and the best steak I think I ever had was at the Old Hickory place there. 90 day dry aged.. YUM!!!!)


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

My high school age kids know Several of their peers, who are openly gay. They used the same bathrooms at everybody else.

It is really just not an issue for them.

Haven't We Already given our children plenty of other things to worry about?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Wow, such a problem! Life was so much simpler before gays came out of their closets. We didnt have to worry about them being in the boy scouts when I was a young lad... of course they were there.... but nobody gave it a second thought coz they didnt know which kids were gay and which were not. Ignorance does seem to be bliss.


Exactly! Now you may at least know who might be wanting to make a move on you, before it was kept in the closet. I guess some people think if you don't know about it, it won't affect you or you don't have to deal with it.


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## dngrous (Sep 22, 2009)

I see no issue with this, other than the lack of unity caused by the narrow minded. I'm in the military, and although we don't ask, don't tell, the GLBT are still there, they've just learned to adapt and blend in. I strongly suggest that scouts do the same, if only for the greater good of unit cohesion.
How, as a nation, have we come so far in civil rights and civil liberties for racial minorities, yet we single out people based solely on sexual orientation?
"You're different than me, so you must be wrong!" What a crock, live and let live, just learn to keep the bedroom in the bedroom. Straight people generally don't go around advertising their favorite position, fetishes, or fantasies....


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

plowjockey said:


> My high school age kids know Several of their peers, who are openly gay. They used the same bathrooms at everybody else.
> 
> It is really just not an issue for them.
> 
> Haven't We Already given our children plenty of other things to worry about?


 
So there's no chance at all that 'any' gay youth will prey on another youth? At the same time we keep straight youth separated with boys/girls bathrooms, showers, locker rooms, why?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

dixiegal62 said:


> So there's no chance at all that 'any' gay youth will prey on another youth? At the same time we keep straight youth separated with boys/girls bathrooms, showers, locker rooms, why?


I guess your kids don't use the bathroom at the mall or school or sporting events. They don't change at school or at sleep overs. All places where gay youth can prey on your children without you having a clue.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

painterswife said:


> I guess your kids don't use the bathroom at the mall or school or sporting events. They don't change at school or at sleep overs. All places where gay youth can prey on your children without you having a clue.


At the sports stadiums you attend all the bathrooms are coed? WoW.

So gays are predators? Non-sense. That just isn't the case.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

painterswife said:


> I guess your kids don't use the bathroom at the mall or school or sporting events. They don't change at school or at sleep overs. All places where gay youth can prey on your children without you having a clue.


 
Of course they did all the above when growing up. They could have also been preyed on by straight youth. The point is we as a society take measures to separate kids in situations where this could happen as much as we can. I think it's being in denial to assume that a gay kid is above the normal hormonal urges that straight kids have.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

dngrous said:


> I see no issue with this, other than the lack of unity caused by the narrow minded. I'm in the military, and although we don't ask, don't tell, the GLBT are still there, they've just learned to adapt and blend in. I strongly suggest that scouts do the same, if only for the greater good of unit cohesion.
> How, as a nation, have we come so far in civil rights and civil liberties for racial minorities, yet we single out people based solely on sexual orientation?
> "You're different than me, so you must be wrong!" What a crock, live and let live, just learn to keep the bedroom in the bedroom. Straight people generally don't go around advertising their favorite position, fetishes, or fantasies....


Your an adult, as are those you associate with. I frankly don't care how you interact with other adults. Have roman parties for all I care. 
Teens aren't adults. They need taught what is correct and how to act. 

Do you shower coed in the military? Or is that just for sleeping arrangements?


P.S. no one is talking about the gay behavior being wrong. Just that the definition of coed now includes 4 types or better stated as quad-ed not two. So where coeds are generally seperated the gays and lesbians need the same. To foster their development into responsible adults.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

dixiegal62 said:


> Of course they did all the above when growing up. They could have also been preyed on by straight youth. The point is we as a society take measures to separate kids in situations where this could happen as much as we can. I think it's being in denial to assume that a gay kid is above the normal hormonal urges that straight kids have.


Yes, anyone can have urges in any situation. Why stop at the Scouts. We should come up with a test and all gays will wear a scarlet G so we will always who who might prey on us. That way we can let boys and girls sleep together in the same tent and use the same bathrooms because we will know they are gay and will not prey on the other sex.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

painterswife said:


> That way we can let boys and girls sleep together in the same tent and use the same bathrooms because we will know they are gay and will not prey on the other sex.


 
That's pretty much what we do with straight kids isn't it? We assume it's safer for girls to be with girls, boys with boys. What's the difference?


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

I found out this week I've been using the men's room at physical therapy for 6 months. Women's is around the corner out of view. Does that make me a homosexual transvestite?

Let me set off the emo alarms for you. Same-sex crushes, fantasies and sexual experimentation are NORMAL during adolescence and pre-adolescence. Most kids move through this stage of development to embrace heterosexual relationships.

Kids are kids. The important thing is we give them the space for personal growth while protecting them from predators. There are very few child predators whose issues are homosexuality. They usually find themselves among the prey.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

dixiegal62 said:


> That's pretty much what we do with straight kids isn't it? We assume it's safer for girls to be with girls, boys with boys. What's the difference?


You think we separate them so they will not be preyed upon?

I thought it was because we want a little bit of privacy when attending to our bodily functions.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

painterswife said:


> You think we separate them so they will not be preyed upon?
> 
> I thought it was because we want a little bit of privacy when attending to our bodily functions.


How do you figure 'public' bathrooms are private? Privacy from whom? 

What I'm getting from this whole post is people want gay children to be treated like other children. OK I'm good with that. We are all humans no matter if we are gay or straight. The problem is you want them to be treated like other kids but not really. You want the rules you apply to straight kids bent for gay kids.


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## dngrous (Sep 22, 2009)

Scarlet G, or yellow star? Same difference, at that point. If you want to segregate the Scouts, better make sure none of them there colored boys is in with em, neither...
(sarcasm used, to show ludicrous nature of opposing view.)


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

dngrous said:


> Scarlet G, or yellow star? Same difference, at that point. If you want to segregate the Scouts, better make sure none of them there colored boys is in with em, neither...
> (sarcasm used, to show ludicrous nature of opposing view.)


 
The race card... really?


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

dixiegal62 said:


> The race card... really?


When nothing else can be said those folks then resort to making a race issue.:bored:


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## alpinechicken (May 7, 2003)

dixiegal62 said:


> How do you figure 'public' bathrooms are private? Privacy from whom?
> 
> What I'm getting from this whole post is people want gay children to be treated like other children. OK I'm good with that. We are all humans no matter if we are gay or straight. The problem is you want them to be treated like other kids but not really. You want the rules you apply to straight kids bent for gay kids.


I do? You assume lots of things not in evidence. I have no problem with same sex bathrooms. I never had a problem with sharing a tent with a boy either.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

alpinechicken said:


> I do? You assume lots of things not in evidence. I have no problem with same sex bathrooms. I never had a problem with sharing a tent with a boy either.


 
Just like you assumed I was responding to you when clearly I was responding to painterswife. I even quoted her.


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## dngrous (Sep 22, 2009)

Yes, because discrimination is wrong, regardless of type. I see the points on both sides of this, but I also see that people are assuming their little boys will be raped, just because they share a tent with a gay Scout. I had no issue sleeping in the same room as gay kids in my church youth group, I never got raped. Ironically, it was a straight kid that molested me as a young teen, and the gay kids are still some of my best friends. Morality and self control is a human issue, not an orientation issue. I seem to recall one of the major reasons marijuana was banned was because it makes the blacks want to rape white women.
Ignorance is ignorance, and I call it out when I see it.


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## dngrous (Sep 22, 2009)

And to claim that I'm playing the race card after I specifically pointed out that it was sarcasm? Hmm.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

dngrous said:


> Yes, because discrimination is wrong, regardless of type. I see the points on both sides of this, but I also see that people are assuming their little boys will be raped, just because they share a tent with a gay Scout. I had no issue sleeping in the same room as gay kids in my church youth group, I never got raped. Ironically, it was a straight kid that molested me as a young teen, and the gay kids are still some of my best friends. Morality and self control is a human issue, not an orientation issue. I seem to recall one of the major reasons marijuana was banned was because it makes the blacks want to rape white women.
> Ignorance is ignorance, and I call it out when I see it.


 

Sadly kids get molested by other kids. It happens, predators come in all shapes and forms and many different ages. Your right it's about morality. Being straight does not mean your moral, neither does being gay.

Saying that 'some' gay kids wouldn't be more tempted if given the opportunity is just as ludicrous as saying 'some' straight boys wouldn't rape a girl if given the chance.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

dixiegal62 said:


> So there's no chance at all that 'any' gay youth will prey on another youth? At the same time we keep straight youth separated with boys/girls bathrooms, showers, locker rooms, why?


Boys and girls separate restrooms showers are a no-brainer, At least in my brain.

Question for you.

What restrooms and showers have gay people been using For as long as we have had public restrooms and showers? :Rolleyes:


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

dngrous said:


> Yes, because discrimination is wrong, regardless of type. I see the points on both sides of this, but I also see that people are assuming their little boys will be raped, just because they share a tent with a gay Scout. I had no issue sleeping in the same room as gay kids in my church youth group, I never got raped. Ironically, it was a straight kid that molested me as a young teen, and the gay kids are still some of my best friends. Morality and self control is a human issue, not an orientation issue. I seem to recall one of the major reasons marijuana was banned was because it makes the blacks want to rape white women.
> Ignorance is ignorance, and I call it out when I see it.


Who is suggesting rape or violence? Only Painterswife has brought up predation or issues like that. No one else.


Do you feel it's fine for a teen girl to be naked in front of a group of boys? Is it appropriate for them to leer at her and lust for her even if they don't actually comment or touch her? You can be arrested in today's day and age for looking at a pretty person for more than a few seconds.. (sexual harassment)Is it appropriate for the boys to be put in that situation? Even if both the male and female participants would largely wish it to happen is it something we as a society should permit and encourage?


P.S. You need to review reefer madness. It wasn't about rape at all. It made white women want to do the truly unthinkable.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

dngrous said:


> Yes, because discrimination is wrong, regardless of type. I see the points on both sides of this, but I also see that people are assuming their little boys will be raped, just because they share a tent with a gay Scout. .


It's not about boys being raped. It could be with consent. I suspect those who are for separate genders sharing the same sleeping quarters and open showers are for keeping it even across the board meaning girls and boys no matter what gender. 
All gender bathrooms are fine as long as they have doors. A while back this girl kept watching my dd changing in the locker room at school. It creeped her out, so she started changing in the bathroom stalls. Of course the same girl teased her about it on a regular basis. Later on she told me the girl was gay. I would not be ok with my 14 year old sharing sleeping quarters with that girl. Just because a person is gay doesn't mean they are above teasing and ogling.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

plowjockey said:


> Boys and girls separate restrooms showers are a no-brainer, At least in my brain.
> 
> Question for you.
> 
> What restrooms and showers have gay people been using For as long as we have had public restrooms and showers? :Rolleyes:


Why the separation of genders for showers and sleeping? What are you some kind of wacko puritan. Can't you see that the teens can control themselves. I mean teen pregnancy just never happens.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

I find it a bit ironic that many worry that the kids involved in scouting wont be able to act in a respectful manner towards others when it comes to matters of sex. Aren't respect of others, proper behaviour and morality all part of what scouting is supposed to embody and teach? Based on the files kept and released by the BSA it would seem scout leaders pose a much greater threat.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

dixiegal62 said:


> Just like you assumed I was responding to you when clearly I was responding to painterswife. I even quoted her.


Sorry, a family member used my computer and I accessed via their ID. It was painterswife responding.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

stanb999 said:


> Who is suggesting rape or violence? Only Painterswife has brought up predation or issues like that. No one else.


Actually someone else used the word "prey" first. I was responding to that.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

stanb999 said:


> Why the separation of genders for showers and sleeping? What are you some kind of wacko puritan. Can't you see that the teens can control themselves. I mean teen pregnancy just never happens.


I Get your sarcasm, but not your point. Do you have one?


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

dngrous said:


> And to claim that I'm playing the race card after I specifically pointed out that it was sarcasm? Hmm.


 
Sorry dngrous, my fault interiorly. I misread.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Actually someone else used the word "prey" first. I was responding to that.


Your right... It was someone else that used it first. It was a person with a position like your own. You used it second.

Plus, your side is the one that seems to think there is an issue with homosexuals praying on others. The rest of us don't see this issue. Can you please help me find the statistics on this? I always thought the rates of sexual violence weren't higher due to orientation. 

I'm rather shocked at your line of thinking in this regard.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

plowjockey said:


> I Get your sarcasm, but not your point. Do you have one?


Yes, Your being willfully obtuse about the issue and wish to cloud the the topic at hand with gay and lesbian rhetoric. 

Really it's about morality and proper behavior.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> I find it a bit ironic that many worry that the kids involved in scouting wont be able to act in a respectful manner towards others when it comes to matters of sex. Aren't respect of others, proper behaviour and morality all part of what scouting is supposed to embody and teach? Based on the files kept and released by the BSA it would seem scout leaders pose a much greater threat.




Nice try at changing of the subject.

Teens need not be subject to the voyeuristic wishes of the opposite sex.

Two gay people of the same sex are technically the "opposite" sex for the purposes of this discussion or do you disagree? A male homosexual would generally view males in a sexual fashion. So the same protection is needed for those males as would be needed for females in the same type of circumstances. Or are young men to be exploited?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

stanb999 said:


> Your right... It was someone else that used it first. It was a person with a position like your own. You used it second.
> 
> Plus, your side is the one that seems to think there is an issue with homosexuals praying on others. The rest of us don't see this issue. Can you please help me find the statistics on this? I always thought the rates of sexual violence weren't higher due to orientation.
> 
> I'm rather shocked at your line of thinking in this regard.


No, I don't correlate sexual preference with the likelihood of preying on anyone. You must be mixing me up with someone else.


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## homebody (Jan 24, 2005)

stanb999 said:


> Nice try at changing of the subject.
> 
> Teens need not be subject to the voyeuristic wishes of the opposite sex.
> 
> Two gay people of the same sex are technically the "opposite" sex for the purposes of this discussion or do you disagree? A male homosexual would generally view males in a sexual fashion. So the same protection is needed for those males as would be needed for females in the same type of circumstances. Or are young men to be exploited?


Yes, there is a "male" and a "female".
In regards to the BS, I'm glad I will not be having any grandchildren. No further comment as I refuse to say what I really think.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

painterswife said:


> No, I don't correlate sexual preference with the likelihood of preying on anyone. You must be mixing me up with someone else.


You have mentioned it several times in this thread. Where you just baiting the rest of us?

Why would you do that?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

stanb999 said:


> You have mentioned it several times in this thread. Where you just baiting the rest of us?
> 
> Why would you do that?


I was pointing out the disconnect between people who think gay people should not be in Scouts with those same people allowing their children to go into same sex bathrooms or sleepovers with the same sex.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

If I recall, there is very little privacy at camps. Kids have to sneak off into the woods for sex no matter what their perceived orientation.

As a healthy single heterosexual female, I do not look at all males as sex objects. I didn't do that as a teen, either. The homosexuals I know, kids and adults, don't do it either. 

Kids are kids. People are people. Some good, some bad and some like to have their panties in a knot.


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## Guest (May 24, 2013)

Having once been a teenage red-blooded boy I think I know exactly how I would have reacted to being naked in a shower with naked teenage girls . I wouldn't have attacked them but I would have been ogling & drooling . I also believe some of the girls would have been doing the same to the boys .
I don't know much about being gay , but if a gay person reacts to same sex people the same way people of the opposite sex react to each other I don't think gay & straight teenagers should be showering , sleeping & such together . Hormones rage in teenagers .
Gay people should be able to participate but there should be proper accommodations made for such situations .


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

A very wishy washy decision. Why set the limit at 17 or 18? That is just ridiculous. This says that according to the BS a boy is "morally straight" and acceptable at that age but not past it.

And as for 17 and 18 year olds reaching an age when they are curious - kids are already playing doctor at 10.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

stanb999 said:


> Nice try at changing of the subject.
> 
> Teens need not be subject to the voyeuristic wishes of the opposite sex.
> 
> Two gay people of the same sex are technically the "opposite" sex for the purposes of this discussion or do you disagree? A male homosexual would generally view males in a sexual fashion. So the same protection is needed for those males as would be needed for females in the same type of circumstances. Or are young men to be exploited?



You do realize that both Straights and gays have already been sharing the same restroom and shower facilities, For the last 2000 years or so, right?

Just. Curious


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

plowjockey said:


> Your OP is confusing then, at least to me, when you discussing gays in bars and Boy Scouts. Which I assumed was scout leaders being gay
> 
> I missed where boys and girls sleeping together, had anything to do, with your point.
> 
> My mistake.


 :rock:
I was just using that episode as an example of the dilemma it presents to the person in a position of authority. I don't have any dog in this fight, so to speak, but it just seems like it would be difficult.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

plowjockey said:


> You do realize that both Straights and gays have already been sharing the same restroom and shower facilities, For the last 2000 years or so, right?
> 
> Just. Curious



I'm not talking about bathrooms and have never brought that up. In fact they have nothing to do with this conversation at all. Unless you shower and or sleep in the bathroom. 

As far as gays in the scouts; showers and other facilities. Sure there has always been gays, bi, and stranger in the population. But it was not known. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. 

IMHO this is the open acceptance of pervert behavior. If it isn't wrong behavior than explain the need to separate men and women while showering and sleeping.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Laura said:


> If I recall, there is very little privacy at camps. Kids have to sneak off into the woods for sex no matter what their perceived orientation.


Strait Boys generally don't sneak off together to have sex... Kinda the whole point of the opposition. Nice of you to notice.



Laura said:


> As a healthy single heterosexual female, I do not look at all males as sex objects. I didn't do that as a teen, either. The homosexuals I know, kids and adults, don't do it either.


Lets just say you don't understand teen boys. Every see a billy goat or a rooster? They have more self control.



Laura said:


> Kids are kids. People are people. Some good, some bad and some like to have their panties in a knot.


What does this have to do with the topic?


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

wendle said:


> We have 4 different genders, male, female, male(gay), female(gay).


Oh we do? So how does that work out on blood work?

XX
XY
???????
???????

Last I knew, scientifically, there were two genders. Can you show me the new studies that show we have 4?


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## Wolfy-hound (May 5, 2013)

I think people just have a need to bash someone. Gay teens are not going to suddenly start raping other boys just because they are sleeping in a tent. No more than an adult man and woman in an office will automatically jump on each other.

I hope that someday, the kids or grandkids of the people who are bigoted today will be as ashamed of their ancestors as folks are today of racists in their family history.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I'm not being bigoted at all, I don't think. Personally, I think it is wrong to, in my opinion, force these teens and young people to label themselves. I'm just interested in the dilemma it seems to present to a person in the position of chaperoning or being responsible for them.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Annsni said:


> Oh we do? So how does that work out on blood work?
> 
> XX
> XY
> ...


Gender isnt really a scientific term.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

I understand teen males quite well. The last of my beautiful daughters is 18. I'm also quite familiar with Summer Camp. My nickname is The Warden.

Where there's a Boy Scout Camp, there is Girl Camp nearby. Many camps are coed. Even Boy Scouts are coed. Homosexual teens usually are not fully outed from fear of getting the stuffing kicked out of them by homophobes and friends.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

vicker said:


> I'm not being bigoted at all, I don't think. Personally, I think it is wrong to, in my opinion, force these teens and young people to label themselves. I'm just interested in the dilemma it seems to present to a person in the position of chaperoning or being responsible for them.


I'm somewhat familiar the the local teen gay culture and it is my experience, that the kid's create their own "labels" themselves, more so than anyone else assigning labels to them.

Honestly, 40 years ago I could not have picked out a fellow student, who was gay. They were all "closeted"- completely.

Not so any more. They "come out" and let every know about it. Their peers just accept them for that.

It's both complicated and simple, at the same time.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Laura said:


> Homosexual teens usually are not fully outed from fear of getting the stuffing kicked out of them by homophobes and friends.


Truly a human tragedy, for people to have to live this way.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

wendle said:


> Boy scouts goes up to *17 years old*,.


 Not being a pest, but they have until to make Eagle...just clarification.

Matt


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

dixiegal62 said:


> So there's no chance at all that 'any' gay youth will *prey* on another youth? At the same time we keep straight youth separated with boys/girls bathrooms, showers, locker rooms, why?


Not on my watch. At least, for our pack and troop (yeah, I'm a Cub and boy Scout leader). They have YPT (Youth Protection Training for a reason).

Matt


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Annsni said:


> Oh we do? So how does that work out on blood work?
> 
> XX
> XY
> ...


I guess it depends on where you look it up. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role

Here's another one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender
I wonder if blood work will be asked before allowing those with alternative genders to marry each other.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

plowjockey said:


> I'm somewhat familiar the the local teen gay culture and it is my experience, that the kid's create their own "labels" themselves, more so than anyone else assigning labels to them.
> 
> Honestly, 40 years ago I could not have picked out a fellow student, who was gay. They were all "closeted"- completely.
> 
> ...


I am sure you are right. It is my experience that it is us adults that make things complicated.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Then again, on what or who's criteria do they label themselves? Can't they just be kids? I've heard people say that they knew their kid was gay at 3 years old. What????? Are we becoming more accepting, or are we creating more convenient cubby holes to place people in?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

plowjockey said:


> I'm not really sure what you are talking about.
> 
> 
> My point was that *all adults are supposed to know, The difference between right and wrong*, when around children - And act accordingly - Always.
> ...


That has to be the most conflicted twisted statement I have ever heard.

Think that through for a minute. It assumes so much.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

vicker said:


> http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/23/18447459-boy-scouts-vote-to-lift-ban-on-gay-youth?lite
> This is all very interesting to me. Lets talk about it. I think this puts us on odd footing. I don't think anyone would have wanted me to be sleeping in a tent with their daughter when I was that age. It's an interesting can of worms. I'm all for gays being treated fairly, but... It reminds me of one day in my neighborhood bar in Boston. The bar was next door to a community health center that catered to gays, lesbians and transgenders. (why do lesbians need to differentiate themselves?) I walked in one afternoon and there was a person setting there that was obviously a ... person who was becoming a woman. The bartender was named Fat Tony. (just picture that) This bar was a dive, but it had a really nice ladies room that they were very proud and protective of. We were all used to having people of all walks in there. It was a jam up place! There were only a few people in the bar at the time, and I asked Fat Tony, "Tony, if that person get up to go to the bathroom, which bathroom are you going to let them use?". You should have seen his face as that dilemma dawned on him
> So?


They allow gays in the military, so if you are sharing a shower and a fox hole, don't see much of a difference than sharing a tent.

However, it does open the floodgates of 'discrimination' and (I hate this word) "intolerance" lawsuits.

I think the linked article is a media whip up, designed to inflame people's emotions. 

If people don't like gays in scouts, pull your kids and join your churches scout type program.
If people feel like they are being treated differently by the scouts, don't join them, create your own scouting program.
It's America for heavens sake. We have the Freedom to do 'our own thing'.
Why force everyone to do 'your' thing?

*FOR EXAMPLE*:
Wana pray at school? 
Go to a private Christian / Catholic school.
Don't 'force' the public schools to bend to your religion.
Don't like Christian or Catholic schools?
Home school. Find other folks like you and open your own school.

See. Simple solutions.
Everyone should apply them to their own preference.


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## suzfromWi (Jun 1, 2002)

dixiegal62 said:


> So there's no chance at all that 'any' gay youth will prey on another youth? At the same time we keep straight youth separated with boys/girls bathrooms, showers, locker rooms, why?


Prey on????????OMG! THIS IS NARROW MINDED BIGOTRY TO SAT THE LEAST...


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

No, it's a fact.
Children who have been sexually abused have been found to be very predatory towards other children. It's acting out.
Pre or puberty aged kids, explore....sometimes a little aggressively.

Ask the young man (15) on the back of a school bus in Carmel In.
3-4 of his "straight" team mates, his age, RAPED him on the back of the bus, on the way home from a basketball game. Yep, coaches were on the bus too.....
THAT was predatory if I ever saw it.

There is nothing narrow minded or bigoted about truth, and statistics.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

suzfromWi said:


> Prey on????????OMG! THIS IS NARROW MINDED BIGOTRY TO SAT THE LEAST...


 
Like it or not there will ALWAYS be kids that prey on other kids. Doesn't matter if they are straight or gay. It happens everyday. Is warning my daughter to be careful of teenage boys motives bigotry too?


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## suzfromWi (Jun 1, 2002)

It sounded to me,
that because they were gay...they would prey on others....


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

This is an interesting question. I'm bi, I've always been attracted to other women. And yes, I attended sleepovers when young and yes, sometimes there was (same) sex play involved. Sometimes it was of the "Truth, Dare or Double-Dare" variety, sometimes it was more intimate ... but it did go on. I can't recall anyone being forced or coerced to do anything, though, or complaining or becoming upset. You might say a good time was had by all, AFAIK ... 

I think adults forget how insatiably curious young people are about sex. 

I find it interesting that our parents never gave us any guidance when it came to dealing with members of our own sex. We sure were put on alert as to what we could and couldn't do with boys! But with other girls ... no. Could it be that they never expected us to engage in such activities? Or is it just that a girl can't get another girl pregnant? I dunno. :shrug:

I do think the key is for the adults in leadership positions to communicate clear expectations to young people in their charge -- perhaps something as simple as "Stay in your own sleeping bag and keep your hands to yourself." Although I suppose that opens up other possibilities ... hmmm. ound: 

Seriously, though ... the message should be that sexual conduct, gay _or_ straight, isn't appropriate during Scout camp.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> They allow gays in the military, so if you are sharing a shower and a fox hole, don't see much of a difference than sharing a tent.


I do when you are discussing legal adults and the Boy Scouts deal with underage children.


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## I_don't_know (Sep 28, 2012)

The Urban League is allowed to be "Helping African Americans" (this quote comes stright off the wall of the league.)
But the Boy Scouts cannot ban gay boys or leaders!!!!
*â¦ you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.*


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted by *plowjockey*
> _I'm not really sure what you are talking about.
> 
> 
> ...





HDRider said:


> That has to be the most conflicted twisted statement I have ever heard.
> 
> Think that through for a minute. It assumes so much.


Fortunately, some of us don't have to rely on the bible, with it's pick-and-choose "scriptures", to do our critical thinking, for us.

I live in the real world and my thoughts, could not be more clear.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

I_don't_know said:


> The Urban League is allowed to be "Helping African Americans" (this quote comes stright off the wall of the league.)
> But the Boy Scouts cannot ban gay boys or leaders!!!!
> *â¦ you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.*


The decision to allow Gay Scout leaders, is a BSA choice.

The U.S. Government has nothing to do with it.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> No, it's a fact.
> Children who have been sexually abused have been found to be very predatory towards other children. It's acting out.
> Pre or puberty aged kids, explore....sometimes a little aggressively.
> 
> ...


This has been my belief all along.

Human sexuality is infinitely complicated, so to simply relegate it to bible passages, does not really help anyone, understand and deal with it. 

Hiding it all and living in denial, worked for some time, but no more.


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## I_don't_know (Sep 28, 2012)

plowjockey said:


> The decision to allow Gay Scout leaders, is a BSA choice.
> 
> The U.S. Government has nothing to do with it.


*Their choice, my foot.* Non profits get selectively attacked if they do not conform. IRS and the Tea Party. They had their standers, and now have been pushed, preserved and threatened into changing *or there would not have been a change!!!
*


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> They allow gays in the military, so if you are sharing a shower and a fox hole, don't see much of a difference than sharing a tent.
> *
> However, it does open the floodgates of 'discrimination' and (I hate this word) "intolerance" lawsuits.*
> 
> ...





Annsni said:


> I do when you are discussing legal adults and the Boy Scouts deal with underage children.


Grabbing only one sentence out of my entire comment, kinda takes things out of context.
See above for bolded comment.

Yes, adults having to deal with openly gay minors intermingling / camping with, etc. openly not gay minors, is opening a HUGEO can of worms, FOR the adult in charge.
It is a no win for the VOLUNTEER leader.
He better get an insurance policy that covers him when he gets sued, cause it's gonna happen.

The rest of my above comment is my solution to the problem.


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Grabbing only one sentence out of my entire comment, kinda takes things out of context.
> See above for bolded comment.


But it doesn't. You compared the Boy Scouts to the military and there is a world of difference between the two.


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## my3boys (Jan 18, 2011)

arabian knight said:


> I sure never thought it would happen.
> And the LDS church is really going to be upset learning this. They just "cut off" all of their BSA backings. You just maybe seeing the end of scouting, this maybe the straw the broke the camels back.


And that is the real goal here, to destroy the BSA.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Annsni said:


> But it doesn't. You compared the Boy Scouts to the military and there is a world of difference between the two.


Is there THAT much difference between and 18 year old in a fox hole with another 18 year old, and a 17 year old in a tent with another 17 year old??
NO.

And it was 'deeper' than comparing apples and oranges....that's why I included the WHOLE post....:sing:


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## Annsni (Oct 27, 2006)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Is there THAT much difference between and 18 year old in a fox hole with another 18 year old, and a 17 year old in a tent with another 17 year old??
> NO.
> 
> And it was 'deeper' than comparing apples and oranges....that's why I included the WHOLE post....:sing:


Yep - there must be that much of a difference if the Army won't let a 17 year old in a fox hole. 

And I'd say a fox hole is quite a different situation from camping in a tent for fun.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

I_don't_know said:


> *Their choice, my foot.* Non profits get selectively attacked if they do not conform. IRS and the Tea Party. They had their standers, and now have been pushed, preserved and threatened into changing *or there would not have been a change!!!
> *


Baloney.

This is about money.



> For the year ending December 31, 2012, BSA has lost over *643,566* registered Cub Scouts since 1998. Total youth membership in BSA's traditional programs has *declined* by approximately *27% (965,244 members)*, since 1997!


http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa_membership.html


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

I_don't_know said:


> *Their choice, my foot.* Non profits get selectively attacked if they do not conform. IRS and the Tea Party. They had their standers, and now have been pushed, preserved and threatened into changing *or there would not have been a change!!!
> *


For those who don't know, in forums, big bold print like that doesn't mean your emphasizing; it means you're yelling at others. No need to yell at people to get your point across.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

How come anyone has to know what someones sexual prefrences are? What is the point? Only the person that someone wants to "date" needs to know. I don't think Boy Scouts are dateing material, are they? I'm really sick of gays having to let the world know that they are gay, what's the big deal? Are they giving out trophys now for people comeing out of the closet(just like all those silly trophys for the loosers of the baseball team-Everyone gets a trophy these days)? I just watched the news,they made a big deal about some soccer player that announced to the world that he was gay-big deal. About as important as telling the world about all the soccer players that stubbed their toe.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

My husband has been a Scoutmaster for a very long time now. He is totally not worried about the gay issue. First of all, adults are the ones making a big issue out of it. The boys can't figure out why all the fuss as it doesn't worry or bother them in the least. In fact, when the scout that was denied his Eagle Scout (even after doing all the requirements and his Eagle project), did you see how many boys sent him _their_ Eagle Patches in support? There were hundreds of them. Then when the vote came up about this whole thing and it looked like gays were going to denied the right to scouting, 350 Eagle scouts turned back in their badges to BSA to protest. I think it says something of the maturity, responsibility and insight that the boys have. 

Secondly, all leaders (including leaders who have little if any contact with the boys themselves such as troop commissioners, treasure, etc.) are required to annual Youth Protective Training and must take a test in order to be certified. You are required to obtain your yearly certification. Plus, the scouts themselves are taught the principles and rules taught in the YPT and are asked to report any offenses. 

The whole thing is just overblown and you have adults out there that are acting like boys are going to raped by other boys all over the place. That simply is not true. Gay's don't rape; _pedophiles_ do. Two entirely different issues and insisting the two are one in the same if just plain ignorance.


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

As a very 'straight acting'(just being me really) gay man i can tell you why... unless i tell somebody, nobody would guess it!

Not only that but many times people innocently ask me why i live alone or why i don't have a wife(mostly older farmers).. 98% of the time i answer i'm gay and i have experienced every kind of reaction you can imagine. It can be emotionally draining or quite simple but i hate having to tell people lol.

Close friends of mine tell me i look too straight and thats why i'm single LOL... so for a lot of people it is nice to announce it and get all that stuff out of the way.

EDIT: As for those in the media, it's not them who makes a big deal about it. A lot of them also realize they are roll models and KNOW quite well what it's like growing up knowing you are so different than the norm(in that one way)... Kids who identify as being gay, like i did very young, can know they are not alone.


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## Raymond James (Apr 15, 2013)

Since its founding the Boy Scouts have always had gay scouts. The difference is now days the boys (and girls) are told it is ok to be gay. Sexual activity while on outings/campouts is not allowed and have never been permitted. 

The prohibition in rule was not enacted till the 1990's. So from 1901 ( if I recall correctly ) till 1991 no rule . Granted not many boys or men who are open about it back then but when a troop had a boy who was different it was not the end of the world. I knew and know many troop leaders who never married and always hung out with men. I do not know they were gay as I never asked them they did not act inappropriately so why would I. Those men are in there late 60's to 80's now. I had several boys in my troop growing up who are gay. I do not recall any inappropriate actions by boys with other boys in the troop. 

Many active scouts and leaders do not see anything wrong with a gay scout sounds like over 60% voted to allow the gay boys. NO one forced the boy scouts to change. 

The conservative /religious boys can join a religious scout group like Royal Rangers or Royal Ambassadors which has existed for decades to accommodate scouts that want a more religious scouting experience. 

This idea that gays just came into existing just recently or that there is anything wrong with them is wrong. God made them that way so how can they be wrong?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Annsni said:


> Yep - there must be that much of a difference if the Army won't let a 17 year old in a fox hole.
> 
> And I'd say a fox hole is quite a different situation from camping in a tent for fun.


ok, you got me, it's totally different and I shouldn't used the example.

Maybe I don't understand the topic: I was under the impression that GLBT groups are putting pressure on BSA to allow openly gay 'scouts' into the club?
So, right now, if a boy is openly gay, he is told "sorry, you cannot participate"?
BUT in Jan 2014, openly gay minors can join the scouts.
And they are holding to the position that openly gay men cannot LEAD scouts.

Help me understand what the deal is.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I was under the impression that GLBT groups are putting pressure on BSA to allow openly gay 'scouts' into the club?


Actually that is not true. It was the boys themselves that actually started this whole thing to begin with and then other groups chimed in. The real turning point was when a boy had completed all his Eagle Scout requirements, finished his Eagle Scout project, showed to be highly responsible and had extreme leadership qualities -- however, was denied his Eagle Scout ONLY because he came out-of-the-closet before his Eagle Scout board of review. 

Knowing the character and years and years of hard work it takes to achieve Eagle Scout standing, boy scouts all over the world were not only shocked but outraged and they started the ball rolling to allow gays in BSA. Now we are, in fact, talking about most of those boys who are straight doing this.



> So, right now, if a boy is openly gay, he is told "sorry, you cannot participate"?


That is correct.



> BUT in Jan 2014, openly gay minors can join the scouts.


Correct



> And they are holding to the position that openly gay men cannot LEAD scouts.


Correct; that will stand as it is now. No gay adults (even if not leaders) are permitted in scouting at all; whether as a commissioner, treasurer, office assistance, etc., even if you have little or no contact with the boys.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

7thswan said:


> How come anyone has to know what someones sexual prefrences are? What is the point? Only the person that someone wants to "date" needs to know. I don't think Boy Scouts are dateing material, are they? I'm really sick of gays having to let the world know that they are gay, what's the big deal? Are they giving out trophys now for people comeing out of the closet(just like all those silly trophys for the loosers of the baseball team-Everyone gets a trophy these days)? I just watched the news,they made a big deal about some soccer player that announced to the world that he was gay-big deal. About as important as telling the world about all the soccer players that stubbed their toe.


Because there are expectations of the roles of men and women. They are expected to date and marry members of the opposite sex, choose professions accordingly, choose likes and dislikes accordingly, have conversations related to these expectations, etc. In order to do that, a gay person has to either lie about who they are to keep the status quo, or let it be known who they really are. There is no way to just avoid it, despite what others think. It isn't an every day thing, but if you really think about it, roles are either done or discussed regularly; if even to make a comment about a pretty girl passing by.


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

I just thought it was important to add that the boy who started this whole thing, feels terrible that the decision to allow gay boys didn't include adult gays and he vows to keep the issue going... a leader indeed! 



Karen said:


> Actually that is not true. It was the boys themselves that actually started this whole thing to begin with and then other groups chimed in. The real turning point was when a boy had completed all his Eagle Scout requirements, finished his Eagle Scout project, showed to be highly responsible and had extreme leadership qualities -- however, was denied his Eagle Scout ONLY because he came out-of-the-closet before his Eagle Scout board of review.
> 
> Knowing the character and years and years of hard work it takes to achieve Eagle Scout standing, boy scouts all over the world were not only shocked but outraged and they started the ball rolling to allow gays in BSA. Now we are, in fact, talking about most of those boys who are straight doing this.
> 
> ...


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

Not daily but yes indeed this happens sooo often! When i was younger it gave me such anxiety.. always having to think before speaking or even thinking about whether or not now was a good time to tell a new friend... now i would just blurt out, i'm gay, she's cute, go for it...



Karen said:


> It isn't an every day thing, but if you really think about it, roles are either done or discussed regularly; if even to make a comment about a pretty girl passing by.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

.............The leadership can relax the rules all they want........that will never force the members of any particular Scout Troop to accept an Overtly Gay member the same way they would a straight member . These kinds of rules cannot BE.....forced upon the children or their parents if they donot wish to participate ! , fordy:bash:


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## I_don't_know (Sep 28, 2012)

Karen said:


> For those who don't know, in forums, big bold print like that doesn't mean your emphasizing; it means you're yelling at others. No need to yell at people to get your point across.


I am sorry. I did not realize it would be looked at as yelling. 

I simply get fed to the teeth with the Fed Gov sticking it's nose into everything. Look at kids, no discipline or consideration for anyone. Look at the educational system, a kid graduating from high school knows how to use a condom- they just can't read the directions. kids use to start learning a second language in the forth grade, now they can barely speak English when they graduate form high school. 

America Land of the Free, Sometimes I wonder, and sometimes it does make me want to scream, more often I want to cry.


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## Raymond James (Apr 15, 2013)

The Federal Government run by its elected officials by the people of the United states may be sticking there noses in to their business . In this case only members of the organization had a say. The Federal Government did not have anything to do with this.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

primal1 said:


> Not daily but yes indeed this happens sooo often! When i was younger it gave me such anxiety.. always having to think before speaking or even thinking about whether or not now was a good time to tell a new friend... now i would just blurt out, i'm gay, she's cute, go for it...


I had a pretty good friend once, more a casual acquaintance that I hung out with for well over a year that developed into friendship. I never would have guessed he was gay, until he introduced me to his boyfriend. My wife and I became pretty good friends with them. His boyfriend was just the opposite and hilarious!
Some of you fellows are almost normal :goodjob:


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

primal1 said:


> I just thought it was important to add that the boy who started this whole thing, feels terrible that the decision to allow gay boys didn't include adult gays and* he vows to keep the issue going.*.. a leader indeed!


I have a question. Please understand, I am askin this with all due respect and I am not being a horses butt (the typed word looses tone of voice and expression of face, so I am trying to convey that I am not 'hostile' but seriously curious)

Why can't this kid just be happy with what he got?
Why does he 'vow' to keep it going?

Let me ask you this:

Let's say I am a mom who wants her kids to be able to openly worship at her 'club'. 
Let's say for years, actually for always, open worship was not permitted by this "club".
So she (the kid) pushes, gets on tv, gets on the radio, gets on the internet, and the 'clubs' counsel votes to allow her to openly worship. 
It's a victory!! It is what she desired....
Except now......she wants everyone to accept and embrace her open worship AND she wants everyone to participate in communion.

1. She received what SHE asked for.
2. Now she wants more.

She is in the lime-lite, so she designates herself as the 'official face' of her cause (because everyone knows her) and because she 'got her way' on the first issue, there's a better chance of getting her way on the second issue......

So lets say I am just another kid in the club.
I don't care if she worships.......whatever, knock yourself out.
But really, keep it to yourself.
That's a 'you' thing, and I am not interested nor do I want to know about it, much less embrace it, celebrate it, etc.
That's a 'you' thing, not a me or 'we' thing.

I guess what I am saying here is plug in any "topic" into the scenerio, and for me I get the same results:
_
If people don't like gays in scouts, pull your kids and join your churches scout type program.
If people feel like they are being treated differently by the scouts, don't join them, create your own scouting program.
It's America for heavens sake. We have the Freedom to do 'our own thing'.
Why force everyone to do 'your' thing?_


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

Hehe, nice! I have met a few people like you, where it was just clear it would be a non issue.. says a lot about you to.. mostly in the city it's a non issue but rural life is a whole other ball game.
I spoke to a good friend about it once and to this day when somebody asks her about me she says she throws in the gay factor... partly because for years a few friends were concerned that i wasn't careful enough and this was her way of screening lol
cheers


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

I hear what you are saying Laura, I can't speak for this boy but it wasn't just about this boy getting what he wants. It was hundreds of boys telling him this was unfair.
I think kids see things a lot clearer than we as adults sometimes do. Think like this kid for a second, he changes history, accomplished what many other boys accomplished but then is told because of who he is that in the future as an adult he will not be accepted. A leader wouldn't accept that.

I was in camps as a kid, we never had a leader sleeping in our tents nor were we ever alone with a leader. If the scouts are run the same way then to not allow gay leaders doesn't make sense. If it comes down to the scouts tradition, then we should also look at the fact that it is no longer a private organization and has been losing memberships and should be doing much more to stay relevant.




Laura Zone 5 said:


> I have a question. Please understand, I am askin this with all due respect and I am not being a horses butt (the typed word looses tone of voice and expression of face, so I am trying to convey that I am not 'hostile' but seriously curious)
> 
> Why can't this kid just be happy with what he got?
> Why does he 'vow' to keep it going?
> ...


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

primal1 said:


> Hehe, nice! *I have met a few people like you, *where it was just clear it would be a non issue.. says a lot about you to.. mostly in the city it's a non issue but rural life is a whole other ball game.
> I spoke to a good friend about it once and to this day when somebody asks her about me she says she throws in the gay factor... partly because for years a few friends were concerned that i wasn't careful enough and this was her way of screening lol
> cheers


(wincing, bracing for impact) Primal.....I don't know if this is good or bad?
Please expound....

Let me be clear here:
Not allowing the boy to become an Eagle scout, because he is gay is just wrong. IF that is the ONLY reason....it's wrong.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I have a question. Please understand, I am askin this with all due respect and I am not being a horses butt (the typed word looses tone of voice and expression of face, so I am trying to convey that I am not 'hostile' but seriously curious)
> 
> Why can't this kid just be happy with what he got?
> Why does he 'vow' to keep it going?


Maybe, as an Eagle Scout himself, he would like to go on to become a scoutmaster someday?

But of course, under the current rules, he wouldn't be good enough.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Here's how I see it:

When my kids were young (3rd, 5th, 6th grade) I had HAD IT with the schools.
The food sucked.
There was more bullying than I could shake a stick at.
They were shoving humanism down their throats.
ETC.

Now, I could have started a campaign to get God back in school.
I could have been a martyr for nutrition.
ETC.

Not everyone worships God.
Not everyone cares about what their kids eat.

So I pulled my kids out of the system and homeschooled.

We looked to join the local home school group. 
We checked it out....after a semester, we decided this was NOT the direction we wanted to go. 
SO we did not sign up again.

We did home schooling where Christian Liberty built the cirriculum and sent it to us in a box. 
The kids took tests, they kept records.
The math and science at each of my kids 'grade level' was to easy, so we asked if we could substitute. 
They did.....but, they charged us up the wazoo and were not friendly about.
So we quit using this company and did it on our own.......


My point?
I did not force MY ways, MY beliefs, MY etc on anyone.
I just did my thing.....I didn't care what everyone else was doing.
I have NOTHING TO PROVE to anyone.
I did what I felt was best for my children, period.
Everyone else on the planet can go pound sand if they don't like it.


If openly gay men and openly gay minors feel so discriminated against (and not allowing a child to be an Eagle Scout SOLELY because he is gay IS discrimination)
THEN START YOUR OWN 'scouting club'.
OUT do what the other clubs are doing........better yet, just do your thing, and don't compare yourself to anyone else. 
Just do your thing. 
Who gives a hot fart what anyone else thinks.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

> Why can't this kid just be happy with what he got?
> Why does he 'vow' to keep it going?


I dont know the kid's motivation but maybe for him it is not about him but equal treatment of all people. To just be happy that he got what he wanted for himself would be selfish.


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

Good or bad in what way? all i meant is sometimes it's just easy to gauge what a reaction might be(right or wrong) it does make a difference in the moment.



Laura Zone 5 said:


> (wincing, bracing for impact) Primal.....I don't know if this is good or bad?
> Please expound....
> 
> Let me be clear here:
> Not allowing the boy to become an Eagle scout, because he is gay is just wrong. IF that is the ONLY reason....it's wrong.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

primal1 said:


> Good or bad in what way? all i meant is sometimes it's just easy to gauge what a reaction might be(right or wrong) it does make a difference in the moment.


You said it "says a lot about me".
I am curious, what it 'says'.......


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Well, it's also possible he is insulted by the Scouts' seeming assumption that being gay means you are a danger to boys.

Funny, we let heterosexual males coach girls' soccer (etc.) teams without getting our knickers in a twist. We don't presume they'll rape the young ladies simply because they're attracted to adults of the female gender. 

The Scouts' current policy seems to equate being gay with pedophilia. I can see where a gay man could feel insulted by that and seek to change it.


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

you said it willow, i do feel that the ban on gay men gives parents and the scouts a false security that their kids are safe, bad to let down your guard!


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

It's morning and i can't tell if you read to much into it hehe.. I swear i meant nothing by it



Laura Zone 5 said:


> You said it "says a lot about me".
> I am curious, what it 'says'.......


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Karen said:


> Because there are expectations of the roles of men and women. They are expected to date and marry members of the opposite sex, choose professions accordingly, choose likes and dislikes accordingly, have conversations related to these expectations, etc. In order to do that, a gay person has to either lie about who they are to keep the status quo, or let it be known who they really are. There is no way to just avoid it, despite what others think. It isn't an every day thing, but if you really think about it, roles are either done or discussed regularly; if even to make a comment about a pretty girl passing by.


 The Truth is the Truth and people should not be rewarded for being truthful. It(being truthful) should be treated as normal.


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## mrsgcpete (Sep 16, 2012)

because separate but equal was proven to be a gigantic failure during civil rights. Most gay people acknowledge from a young age that they knew they were gay (despite other people protesting that they must be making a choice)...why should they have to separate themselves from their peers because they like boys instead of girls, its doesnt impede at all on their ability to build a derby car, earn a merit badge or help the community. 

andto the comment earlier from someone else about families not accepting a scout because he is gay... no a troop doesnt have to fully embrace any other boy or family, but the reasons that you choose to shun another family say a heck of a lot more about those doing the shunning. 



Laura Zone 5 said:


> Here's how I see it:
> 
> When my kids were young (3rd, 5th, 6th grade) I had HAD IT with the schools.
> The food sucked.
> ...


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

mrsgcpete said:


> .why should they have to separate themselves from their peers because they like boys instead of girls,


They 'shouldn't' have to, but, if their 'peers' do not accept them, then they are not their 'peers'.



> its doesnt impede at all on their ability to build a derby car, earn a merit badge or help the community.


I have a dear friend who is gay, and does more community service, fundraisers, etc, than 5 of my hetro friends, combined. 
YOU are exactly right when you say, being gay does not impede ones ability to 'do' anything.



> andto the comment earlier from someone else about families not accepting a scout because he is gay... no a troop doesnt have to fully embrace any other boy or family, but the reasons that you choose to shun another family say a heck of a lot more about those doing the shunning.


To shun someone because they are not "like you" is horrible. 
It does speak volumes of the shunners character (or lack there of).

Curious.......
If you had a Born Again Christian kid, a muslim kid, a Jewish kid, and an athiest kid, and each kid wanted to "talk about his religion, share his religion, convince everyone his religion was perfectly normal and ok, and if you don't agree then you are a bigot jerk intolerant so in so"........
Do you think those kids should be allowed in scouts?
Why or why not?


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## dngrous (Sep 22, 2009)

I'd gladly have a Jewish and Muslim kid in my troop.... More bacon for me.... :-D


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## mrsgcpete (Sep 16, 2012)

scouting is a private organization and they set their parameters for membership that includes an oath that the scout believes in God. That does not say which God so yes I think that a child of any religion should be included and be accepted and if the time is right we can discuss the similarities and differences in our beliefs.

I have three kids and if any of them are gay or end up in a different religion or no religion. as long as they are happy heaalthy and treat people right I am not going to get upset


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

mrsgcpete said:


> scouting is a private organization and they set their parameters for membership that includes an oath that the scout believes in God. That does not say which God_ so yes I think that a child of any religion should be included and be accepted and if the time is right we can discuss the similarities and differences in our beliefs._


Even if each kid wanted to "*talk about *his religion, share his religion, *convince everyone his religion was perfectly normal and ok*, and *if you don't agree then you are a bigot jerk intolerant so in so"........*
Do you think those kids should be allowed in scouts?

I am a full grown adult, and I have been told by MORE THAN ONE employer, I am NOT allowed to talk about, discuss or comment on religion or politics. (I am a bartender).

Should those different kids be accepted?
Yes
Should those kids be treated the same regarless of their religion?
Yes.
Should THEY be allowed to 'proselytize' their religion?
Absolutely not.
Do other kids in the troop have to like, love, understand, embrace, celebrate anyone else's religion?
No.

That's where things cross lines and infringe on the rights of others.
When you try to push, proselytize, convince, bully, guilt, etc other members into embracing your POV.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

7thswan said:


> The Truth is the Truth and people should not be rewarded for being truthful. It(being truthful) should be treated as normal.


It isn't a reward; it's just simply 'truth'. None of them want any reward. They just don't want to lie to everyone around them and not just be who they are. 

It would be like a Jew living among all Christians in an all Christian culture. In order to fit into what everyone expects of him, he would either have to lie or, as certain topics come up, let it be known he is unable to practice some of the expectations that all the others are performing.

Here's another way to look at. Suppose the 'normal' of the entire world was that everyone was gay. You're the only straight one among your family, friends, peers, fellow workers, organizations your in, etc., etc. Would you just live the lie that your like everyone else, or would it not be freeing to explain you have a different view of who you are attracted to?


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## mrsgcpete (Sep 16, 2012)

employers don't want you upset their customers and coworkers and they pay you to follow their rules.
you are there to enhance their busines
scouts is a private organization and belief in God is part of that so having a respectful discussion is okay. your religion is okay just like mine is.. there is a religious badge for any religion that wants to have a program..a scout is courteous so they are expected to live up to set of standards during thatdiscussion ...also when this discussion is applies to the scouts sexuality...because these boys are underage they should not be having sexual conversations at scout events. they would just be accepted and not bullied.


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

Just read an interesting article that compares the boy scout to the girl scouts and interestingly there is no ban on lesbian girls nor leaders(I assume).

http://ideas.time.com/2013/05/23/the-girl-scouts-are-better-than-the-boy-scouts/


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

willow_girl said:


> Well, it's also possible he is insulted by the Scouts' seeming assumption that being gay means you are a danger to boys.
> 
> Funny, we let heterosexual males coach girls' soccer (etc.) teams without getting our knickers in a twist. We don't presume they'll rape the young ladies simply because they're attracted to adults of the female gender.
> 
> The Scouts' current policy seems to equate being gay with pedophilia. I can see where a gay man could feel insulted by that and seek to change it.


That isnt necessarily the reason they wont let gay men be leaders. As far as I have heard it has nothing to do with gay men being a danger. I may be wrong about that but I've only seen that argument from people who are not involved in making the decision.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

mrsgcpete said:


> employers don't want you upset their customers and coworkers and they pay you to follow their rules.
> you are there to enhance their busines
> scouts is a private organization and belief in God is part of that so having a respectful discussion is okay. your religion is okay just like mine is.. there is a religious badge for any religion that wants to have a program..a scout is courteous so they are expected to live up to set of standards during thatdiscussion ...also when this discussion is applies to the scouts sexuality...because these boys are underage they should not be having sexual conversations at scout events. they would just be accepted and not bullied.


I guess my point is this:

If a kid is gay, so what.
I don't think that should 'disqualify' him for being a scout.
If the kid wants everyone in the troop to embrace, accept, and celebrate his choice, that is infringing on the other scouts freedoms, and is unacceptable.
If a scout is gay, ok. 
If a scout is hetro, ok.
Who cares. Who really cares if you are attracted to boys, girls, cats.....
Who cares.
OMGosh keep it to yourself.....

I guess I am old fashioned (over 40 under 50).
What goes on in my bedroom, is a personal matter, not one for open public discussions?

I have gay servers, and hetro servers.
I get their drinks all the same.
It doesn't even cross my mind what they do in their bedroom
It also doesn't factor in when we are working.
They are either good servers, or servers that need more training.
That's it.

This is why I hate labels.


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## vicki in NW OH (May 10, 2002)

I think that the media has been dishonest when reporting on this new change. I kept reading "openly gay" scouts will now be accepted as members, when the change voted on was scouts with same-sex orientation will now be admitted as members. There is a difference.

http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/MembershipStandards/Resolution/results.aspx

"Today, following this review, the most comprehensive listening exercise in Scouting's history the approximate 1,400 voting members of the Boy Scouts of America's National Council approved a resolution to remove the restriction denying membership to youth on the basis of sexual orientation alone. *The resolution also reinforces that Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual by youth of Scouting age, is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.* A change to the current membership policy for adult leaders was not under consideration; thus, the policy for adults remains in place. The BSA thanks all the national voting members who participated in this process and vote.


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

I'm not sure i see much difference between openly gay or those with same-sex orientation. The minute you say anything related to ones sexuality means your open.. as Karen pointed out it could be something as simple as a comment on a pretty girl and a boy responding something like 'i don't like girls that way'... and we all know boys will talk about girls lol


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

But I see straight people holding hands all the time, yet I never imagine what goes on in their bedroom... there seems to be a double standard happening.
Inevitably if you have a group of boys OR men there is a 100% chance that at some point somebody will make a comment about a girl or a woman, does that mean gays are being forced to embrace, accept and celebrate their heterosexuality?
Has nobody in the bar you work in ever commented on a beautiful or handsome client, I used to hear it all the time from staff in my restaurant, probably even did it myself lol



Laura Zone 5 said:


> I guess my point is this:
> 
> If a kid is gay, so what.
> I don't think that should 'disqualify' him for being a scout.
> ...


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## mrsgcpete (Sep 16, 2012)

because being gay like being straight is part of who you are, you should be able to feel comfortable in your surroundings. even if these boys are not talking at scout events about who is good looking, etc. the second someone sees them around town holding hands with some one of the same gender, or god forbid they should want to go to a dance together, all of a sudden they are out. i dont want to see what happens in their bed room either but they should be able to carry on normal teenage activities with out fear that they will be kicked out of scouting


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

mrsgcpete said:


> because being gay like being straight is part of who you are, you should be able to feel comfortable in your surroundings. even if these boys are not talking at scout events about who is good looking, etc. the second someone sees them around town holding hands with some one of the same gender, or god forbid they should want to go to a dance together, all of a sudden they are out. i dont want to see what happens in their bed room either but *they should be able to carry on normal teenage activities with out fear that they will be kicked out of scouting*


There was coach out east that scouted, and recruited my son.
It was an NCAA team.
My son applied.
It is a private college.

He was denied access because he was home educated.
I contacted HSLDA so they could get involved and explain to the admissions dept, that my son's home education met and EXCEEDED the states (my son's home state AND the state the college was in) requirements.
HSLDA sent them a letter.
After they 'reviewed' all the information they still denied him access.
They said that he did not have a legitimate state accredited diploma.
(His ACT and SAT scores are very high too)

I had a couple of choices here:

1. Raise Holy hades, bring in the lawyers, bring in the media, this is discrimination at it's finest. Pursue this with a vengance and say this is for ALL home schooled students.......etc.

2. Drop it and apply elsewhere.

I chose #2. 
Why?
Well, if I did manage to get my son into that school........um, yeah, prof's would hate him, students would hate him, his team mates would hate him.....because he caused such a big fat stink to get in. I am SURE he would be graded 'differently' because of the stink he caused, so the school could SHOW the world that "he's not that smart, or he's a cheater" etc so they could save face for being discriminatory. 

Naw, I was not gonna put my kid through that.
Did he have a right to go?
Yeah. 
Is it discrimination not to allow him in?
Yeah.
Is it a 'private college'?
Yeah.
Is it still, discrimination?
Yep, sure is.

My point:


> you should be able to feel comfortable in your surroundings.


If one is not 'comfortable' in their surroundings, then they should change their geography or the company they keep.

Big schools around here have GLBT clubs.
Why?
So those kids have a place to be, meet, hang out with other kids who are like them, have the same interests, have the same outlook, perceptions, etc.
Do straight kids go to the club? Nope.
Are they allowed in the club? Not really. There is a 'screening' process that eliminates 99% of the straight kids.
Why?
Because why allow straight kids into this club when their intentions are to disrupt?

See my point?

The GLBT clubs 'screen out' straight kids, to protect the integrity of their club.
AND THEY SHOULD.

What is good for the goose, is not so good for the gander.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> There was coach out east that scouted, and recruited my son.
> It was an NCAA team.
> My son applied.
> It is a private college.
> ...


Laura you keep bringing up examples of problems you see with discrimination with regards to choices people make. Being Gay is not a choice just like being female or male at birth is not a choice. You are not even discussing the same thing. The Boy Scouts organization made a decision whether because of pressure from society or because they knew it was the right thing to do. You are free not to like it and even protest it if you wish. However the examples you keep trying to use don't help your cause in any way.


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

Laura, that is just your choice not to fight it, not everybody will think the same way you do.. I personally would fight it and i would get the HSLDA to back me while i did.

Most LGBT clubs do not screen nor do they turn away straight supporters, i just checked a few online so i can't speak for all. I wouldn't even consider joining an LGBT club that would exclude any of my straight friends.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

painterswife said:


> Laura you keep bringing up examples of problems you see with discrimination with regards to choices people make. Being Gay is not a choice just like being female or male at birth is not a choice. You are not even discussing the same thing. The Boy Scouts organization made a decision whether because of pressure from society or because they knew it was the right thing to do. You are free not to like it and even protest it if you wish. However the examples you keep trying to use don't help your cause in any way.


Hmmmm. Ok
Would it be more like my daughter wants to be the kicker on the football team, but it's an all male team......it always has been and always will be.....
She can't help it that she's a girl?

Make no mistake here........Excluding a child from scouts, *solely because* he or she is gay, is totally unacceptable to me. TOTALLY unacceptable to me.

I'm just thinking more along the lines of: If these kids feel like they are being treated differently / poorly, and there appears to be A LOT of gay kids in scouts, then shouldn't their parents get involved and create a scouting program for GLBT kids, so that they can not only enjoy scouting, but be around peers?

That makes sense to me?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Hmmmm. Ok
> Would it be more like my daughter wants to be the kicker on the football team, but it's an all male team......it always has been and always will be.....
> She can't help it that she's a girl?
> 
> ...


Why? Why should they not join the same group as their friends? Why should they not be able to enjoy all that the Scouting program already has? You explain that.

PS Girls are joining formerly boys only teams


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

primal1 said:


> Laura, that is just your choice not to fight it, not everybody will think the same way you do.. I personally would fight it and i would get the HSLDA to back me while i did.
> 
> Most LGBT clubs do not screen nor do they turn away straight supporters, i just checked a few online so i can't speak for all. I wouldn't even consider joining an LGBT club that would exclude any of my straight friends.


I have (3) hugenormous schools within a 45 mile radius of my home, that have GLBT clubs, and all (3) screen (my kids have friends that go to these schools).

Their screening process is more to keep the wise arce kids out of the club (hecklers, and jerks in general) and the kids that feel like they need to "study" them.(sit in the clubs and take notes). 
I don't blame them.
Not one bit.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

painterswife said:


> Why? Why should they not join the same group as their friends? Why should they not be able to enjoy all that the Scouting program already has? You explain that.
> 
> PS Girls are joining formerly boys only teams



They SHOULD be allowed to join the BSA.
YES they should.

BUT WHY would you want to join a group, where you felt 'weird' and the other members treated you poorly?
WHY would you want to join a group that discriminates against _____ and you are ______.

I guess I don't get that.

(Yes, they are letting girls join all boys sports, and I think that is stupid. But that's just my opinion.)

ETA: PW, I am not gay, but I am trying to understand......I am going to school to be a social worker, and my passion is for homeless teens.
A LOT of those kids are homeless, because they have 'come out' and their parents PUT them out.....
I understand addictions.
I understand abuse.
I understand emotional and mental torture.
BUT I am not gay, and I don't understand, and I need too. Please know that I am not being a smart arce or hateful or insightful, I just want to understand.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> They SHOULD be allowed to join the BSA.
> YES they should.
> 
> BUT WHY would you want to join a group, where you felt 'weird' and the other members treated you poorly?
> ...


You do understand that their fellow scouts don't treat them badly, they don't feel weird with their friends. It is the "Adults" that had these rules.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

painterswife said:


> You do understand that their fellow scouts don't treat them badly, they don't feel weird with their friends. It is the "Adults" that had these rules.


I was unaware of that.
So the problem here is NOT that the 'gay' kids are causing problems / the straight kids picking on the gay kids is not the problem......

BUT

The problem is the ADULTS do not want their straight kids mingling with gay kids?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I was unaware of that.
> So the problem here is NOT that the 'gay' kids are causing problems / the straight kids picking on the gay kids is not the problem......
> 
> BUT
> ...


I think you need to do some research.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

painterswife said:


> I think you need to do some research.


I don't even know where to start looking, or what to look for?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I don't even know where to start looking, or what to look for?


? Read news articles? You are arguing about a subject that you have not even bothered to educate yourself on.


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

As a social worker if you work with street kids you will be meeting an awful lot of them who are on the streets because they are gay/lesbian. You should have access to tons of educational stuff because this has been a problem for many many years.
Kudos to you for getting into this line of work, it is not easy!


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I have (3) hugenormous schools within a 45 mile radius of my home, that have GLBT clubs, and all (3) screen (my kids have friends that go to these schools).
> 
> Their screening process is more to keep the wise arce kids out of the club (hecklers, and jerks in general) and the kids that feel like they need to "study" them.(sit in the clubs and take notes).
> I don't blame them.
> Not one bit.


So they're "screening" for behavioral issues, not for reasons of sexual oreintation? Sounds like good policy to me.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

mmoetc said:


> So they're "screening" for behavioral issues, not for reasons of sexual oreintation? Sounds like good policy to me.


Correct. 
They were making sure that the kids that wanted to join were not just joining to be jerks.
I see nothing wrong with that.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

painterswife said:


> ? Read news articles? You are arguing about a subject that you have not even bothered to educate yourself on.


I am leary of 'news articles' because so much of the media is propaganda and lies. 
I would much prefer to talk to folks who have hands on / personal experience.
It's truth, and it's real.

I am not 'arguing' I am just trying to understand.
I have been open about how I view things, but that is from eyes of someone who is not gay. It does not make my 'view' wrong, it's just all I know.
I was hoping that those who understand this topic, from a personal experience POV would help.

It's kinda like being white and asking someone who is black, questions that only a black person could answer. 
That doesn't make me a bigot or hater, just someone who doesn't understand, but wants to understand....Does that make sense?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

primal1 said:


> As a social worker if you work with street kids you will be meeting an awful lot of them who are on the streets because they are gay/lesbian. You should have access to tons of educational stuff because this has been a problem for many many years.
> Kudos to you for getting into this line of work, it is not easy!


As much information as I can learn through text books, I really feel like dealing with real live people, sharing their real live experiences will better prepare me for when I am under the bridge, trying to show a child they ARE important, and they DO have worth, and they DO have talents!
If I walk under and don't know anything except for what "the text book tells me" those kids will not only disregard me, but they will see me as a threat.

There is SO MUCH hope, promise and potential locked up in a young person, just waiting to burst out and make a mark on the world.....I hate it when someone else steals that from them, or worse, convinces them of the opposite.
I don't care WHAT their orientation is.
I don't care WHAT color they are.
I don't care WHAT gender they are.....

They are HUMAN beings......and they matter.
Every, single one of them!!


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I am leary of 'news articles' because so much of the media is propaganda and lies.
> I would much prefer to talk to folks who have hands on / personal experience.
> It's truth, and it's real.
> 
> ...


Sorry, that is a copout, in my opinion. You know enough to get several sources of info, ranging from news interviews to people thoughts and experiences and articles on line and in newspapers. I was under the impression you home schooled. Did you not teach your children to research?


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

Just be real, nothing worse than telling somebody they matter when they do not or cannot believe they do..
A man named Father John(i think, it's been so many years!). He was a priest in Montreal, converted his RV into a soup kitchen type deal. Street kids LOVED this man and most i knew who knew him said that he fed them and listened, never judged or preached at them.. I never heard any speak a bad word about him and most just called him Dad or John. I met him once because somebody i was dating knew him well.. a very down to earth person.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

painterswife said:


> Sorry, that is a copout, in my opinion. You know enough to get several sources of info, ranging from news interviews to people thoughts and experiences and articles on line and in newspapers. I was under the impression you home schooled. Did you not teach your children to research?


Yes, your impression is correct, I did home educate.
I taught them to research reliable sources.
I also taught them the extreme importance of seeking out those who were 'experts' in the field, or possessed more knowledge than themselves, and collecting information on a human level.
I also taught them that some people are not interested in helping, that they are more interested in being closed minded and accusatory......and know when to walk away from said person. With respect, and politely.

I will, practice what I preached.
Thank you for your insight.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

primal1 said:


> Just be real, nothing worse than telling somebody they matter when they do not or cannot believe they do..
> A man named Father John(i think, it's been so many years!). He was a priest in Montreal, converted his RV into a soup kitchen type deal. Street kids LOVED this man and most i knew who knew him said that he fed them and listened, never judged or preached at them.. I never heard any speak a bad word about him and most just called him Dad or John. I met him once because somebody i was dating knew him well.. a very down to earth person.


I have a dual degree.
Social Sciences and Hospitality.
There is a place downtown, that takes folks off the street, teaches them culinary arts, so that they can use that skill to help turn their lives around.

Funny, my 'dream' is to have a food truck, that does just that.
Not only serves, but teaches and reaches.
I want to put my 'money where my mouth is' and not only with words let them know their worth, but let their own hands create and PROVE that worth!


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

Awesome, done right i bet you would get a lot of help from local business to finance such a venture.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Why don't you go talk to the kids and ask them to share their feelings? Many will be happy to if they feel safe with you and not like a bug under a microscope.

I see the homosexual and heterosexual kids getting along with each other just fine for the most part, being supportive and inclusionary with sports and activities. They are protective of each other as friends should be.

The real stress and insecurity for these kids seems to be with us other parents. I don't know if it's all parents or those of us known as Christians. I'm a follower of Jesus Christ of the Bible, not a Sunday morning bench warming God-hates-****-so-do-I club member.


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## mrsgcpete (Sep 16, 2012)

i was in the lgtb group at my university while dating a man, they never turned anyone away while i was there, the folks who were there to heckle werent going to last long.

the scouts want to be there because thats were there friends are, its the adults that teach children to draw lines between themselves and others, i homeschool not to keep my kids out of society but to have them be part of it. if someone told my kid that they couldnt go to school somewhere and they wanted to go, you can bet the farm, that i would fight for them. its not my decision to make.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

My DD has autism. Many people want to exclude her from extra-curricular activities because she's "disabled." She's smarter and better educated than even many adults at the school. Still she's marginalized by many.

Add to that she is a follower of Jesus Christ of the Bible, actually READS her Bible and gets it, does not believe in premarital sex and is a Farm Kid. Oh, and she's formerly homeschooled. 

How weird and different can a kid be?!?!?

Among her TRUSTED friends are homosexual kids who had complete compassion for her in her feelings of isolation in the crowd. They are quite active in all the school programs with hetero kids, and go out of their way to see DD is included. We don't feel "threatened by perverts" because DD has friends. She hasn't been molested, had passes made on her or had any disrespect from homosexual kids.

The kids from her former church youth group never talked to her and never looked her in the eyes. They pretended she didn't exist.


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## primal1 (Aug 22, 2003)

So glad your daughter and her friends have been lucky enough to find each other, it can be so hard for some people to understand what is so different. Not always a fault of their own either, some kids are too sheltered and just can't figure it out. I've met plenty of shallow, self centered straight and gay people alike now to know there are all kinds out there.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Laura said:


> Why don't you go talk to the kids and ask them to share their feelings? Many will be happy to if they feel safe with you and not like a bug under a microscope.
> 
> I see the homosexual and heterosexual kids getting along with each other just fine for the most part, being supportive and inclusionary with sports and activities. They are protective of each other as friends should be.
> 
> The real stress and insecurity for these kids seems to be with us other parents. I don't know if it's all parents or those of us known as Christians. I'm a follower of Jesus Christ of the Bible, not a Sunday morning bench warming God-hates-****-so-do-I club member.


Good lord just smile at people like they're human beings instead of freaks of whatever label. It's really just that easy. Sad thread.

Have I got a story for you Laura...see you soon!


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