# Starting small herd need pointers



## Bungiex88 (Jan 2, 2016)

Plan on starting a small herd or hereford cattle. My plan is to get a bull and 3 or 4 heifers let them reproduce and sell the calfs young or right before winter every year. I'll have a 20 acre pasture that is half woods and half field for them. And I'll have enough fields to make my own hay. My main question is how much hay will I need in the winter time. I live in central pa where the winters are unpredictable. I'd like to build a barn for the tractors and hay storage. I plan on making small square bales. But I don't have a million dollars to blow on a fanCy barn. And how big of a barn to build. I got 2 tractors. I will probably build 2 lean to on each side of the barn make a coral out of one and equipment storage out of other. The reason I want square bales is the biggest tractor I have is 2x2 with loader 70hp farmall.


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## gwithrow (Feb 5, 2005)

first of all don't get a bull, with only that many cows the trouble will never be worth it...start by reading through the rotational grazing thread, its long and full of good info

unless you have a lot of pasture land making hay is a lot of work and trouble and money...buying it as you need it, or better yet, utilizing the rotational grazing method is far superior..it might be a better use of your time and money to purchase what you need in round bales, and build a storage building or hay shed...one tractor to move it around ....

around here our county extension agent will come out and help plan what we need ....barn size, placement, equipment and other cattle management issues...as well as help connecting with others doing the same thing...large operation or small there are some basics you need before you jump in there....there are also cost sharing programs to help with installation of watering areas and sometimes even fencing...

good luck


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

I would add: If you have little or no experience with cattle, start out with 2-3 steers (buy from a breeder/farmer, not at the sale barn). Then, if you decide you like keeping cattle, you've learned some things. If you decide you don't, you can raise them to sell off as beef animals. Of all the cows most likely to be a problem, it's heifers -- they've got no experience calving and are more apt to have difficulties than an older, proven cow.

As gwithrow said, the county extension agent is a good person to know and can direct you to solutions and people who can provide what you need. Also the NRCS and the regional soil/water people are helpful. You'll also need to contact a good cow vet; eventually you will need one.

I wish we had put lean-to's on the sides of our barns; they are very useful!

Big undertaking!!! Good luck with all!


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

The mathematical solution for winter hay is 2.5 percent of dry edible matter per 100# of animal. The amount of dry matter 2.5 -2.7% ends up in the rumen. Keep in mind that feeding methods can be very wasteful until you find a system that works for you. A quick example hay stored indoors verses outdoors, hay manger verses hay ring, quality of hay, etcetera. So with that in mind I'd say with an excellent feeding program still say 3% of body weight and you should have plenty for winter...Topside


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

Even though Central PA has relatively low snowfall, rotational grazing Dec. through March is not feasible. With that few cows buying hay equipment probably wouldn't pay you back...ever. Buy hay and feed it on your pasture in the winter, rotating where you put the bale(s). This will build your soil. 

Initially buying steers to get your feet wet is probably good advice. It sounds like you have enough land where, if you wanted, eventually you could have 10-15 head. At that point having a bull and making your own hay might be financially prudent.

BTW a 70hp Farmall is plenty to haul 4x4 or even 4x5 round bales on even ground.

Here's a quick hay calculation: Let's say you have 4 1300# brood cows with 4 500# weaned calves and 2 600# steers heading into winter. I would plan on 3% or slightly more consumption plus waste for each day they are unable to graze productively. So, 1300x4 + 500x4 + 600x2 = 8400# 8400# x 3% = 252# of hay per day

...so roughly 5 square bales or a 4x4 bale every 3 days or so. A little more when the weather gets nasty a little less once they are able to graze a bit of their winter paddock. Multiply that by how many days you expect to feed hay. I would expect for you a minimum of 100 and a maximum of 150 or 160.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Build center of barn for hay storage and leanto with feed bunk between. 1 or both sides. 24'x24'x12' or 14' high, 12' wide leanto, one or both sides, feed bunk between. Don't have to carry hay, just put directly in bunk. You can add to end if /when you need more room. Have a concrete slab in leanto, open to the corral. Barn lot in the trees for shade and cover on rainy days. Walk to the barn, throw hay in bunk, far enough away so you don't have to smell it, close enough for calving and feeding. Don't have to start a tractor every day. As you use hay you can use that space for a calving stall or loafing shed on bad weather days.
Build shop with leanto for equipment storage close to house. Use the shop for tractor storage, move them out for using shop. Same as above add on as you need/want more space....James


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## rbelfield (Mar 30, 2015)

if you are going to buy heifers to breed, you have to make sure you get a bull that is bred for low birth weights. we started this way too..but we started with 2 heifers and a good friend who lent us his bull. those heifers each had heifer calves..and so we have built up to 13 cows now. we bought a hereford bull and got very lucky with him..his calves were big and we ended up with one c-section. we sold him and have been renting a bull ever since. it makes more sense for us. good luck, we love our cows..but they are a life style choice, we give up alot of other things to have them.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

I suggest that you buy bred and pregnancy checked heifers. The next year go to AI. It is not worth keeping a bull for such a small herd. 

A bull has a lot of potential to be dangerous and it will cost you more to feed and vet that bull all year long than it will cost you to AI all 3-4 of your cows.

If you AI the cows, you can do a synchronized heat and get them all pregnant at the same same, so your nights awake calving are concentrated into a short time period.

Another benefit of AI, is that you can use the top genetics in the country from a bull that most people could never ever afford to purchase. If you want to, you can purchase sexed semen, which for some breeding programs is a real benefit.

Your $800 bull from the auction will not give you the same caliber of calves as the bull worth $500,000 or more that you get to borrow a tiny piece of. Frozen semen is not all that expensive and there are a lot of benefits.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

You say you want a herd of Herefords, so I am going to assume that you want registered and purebred cattle. If not, if you are simply going to raise and sell meat calves, then breed to a low birth weight first calf heifer Angus bull. You'll get black baldy calves that get the same premium sales price and the Angus calves.

While I think it is ridiculous that cattle with black hides bring more money, no one lets me set prices and the market pays more for black cattle. That's just the way it is.


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## shaky6 (May 15, 2015)

Sounds like you're starting from scratch. You've got a long path ahead with a lot of work and money spending along the way. I know from experience. Start with a barn, buy a tractor, build your fence, expand as needed, then buy your livestock and learn from there with 2 or 3 calves.


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## CIW (Oct 2, 2007)

There's a lot of hip shooting on. And a large difference between want and need. The first thing that I would want to know is where the OP lives. It would probably have more to do with want and need for startup costs than anything. Even what breed of cattle would perform best in said area.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Said he lived in central Pennsylvania and wants 3 or 4 Hereford heifers to start with....James


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## shaky6 (May 15, 2015)

Agree. A lot of folks like to fantasize about starting an operation after reading an article in Hobby Farming, but it goes out the window after digging a few post holes in undisturbed soil.


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## CIW (Oct 2, 2007)

Your right. I missed where the location was stated. I apologize.


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

A lot of people follow the plan of buying beef calves in the spring and selling them in the fall, so they don't have to feed them over the winter.

That makes it a seller's market when it's time to buy calves and a buyer's market when you want to sell your calves. Not as highly profitable as you'd like.

If you are planning on selling beef calves, you will do better to get on board with the Certified Angus program. The Angus people have done a whale of a job of marketing their breed. It's better to join them than to fight them.

Around here Herefords are classed the same as all other non-Angus, and the prices are lower.

Black Baldies are crosses between Hereford and Angus. They qualify for the Certified Angus program prices. Maybe that would suit you, keeping Hereford cows and AI'ing them to Angus semen to get Black Baldie weanlings to sell in the spring.

I only raise Dexter calves to sell as breeding stock and family cows, but I love to go to the auction on Wednesday to sit with the buyers and sellers and listen to them talk. Some of them have been doing this all their lives, and they ain't spring chickens. I figure they know a little.


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## Empire (Jan 7, 2016)

Everyone here seems to say that having a bull for 4 cows is a waste, yet AI is only about 60% effective. So AIing 4 cows and only getting 2 calves seems very ineffective to me. I run a bull with my cattle and sell him in the fall. I sell him for more than I buy him for and I don't feed him thru the winter. And he gets the job done. Way better than 60%.
I'm only running about 8 cows with 1 bull. AI is good, but having a bull do the job is good to.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

Empire said:


> Everyone here seems to say that having a bull for 4 cows is a waste, yet AI is only about 60% effective. So AIing 4 cows and only getting 2 calves seems very ineffective to me. I run a bull with my cattle and sell him in the fall. I sell him for more than I buy him for and I don't feed him thru the winter. And he gets the job done. Way better than 60%.
> I'm only running about 8 cows with 1 bull. AI is good, but having a bull do the job is good to.


You would preg check when doing AI to make sure they are bred. Reinseminate the ones that are not bred until they all are. I run a bull plus a cleanup bull year round, but I have about 35 brood cows.


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## Empire (Jan 7, 2016)

I understand that they would be palpated and re inseminated, but for the guy just starting out that would have a vet or tech check and inseminate, would be a hassle to set up appointments and try to get your cows to be bred. A guy just starting out probably doesn't spend hours a day observing his cattle to understand when the cow is in heat and when she needs to be bred. A bull does know when and is available when she's ready. I know I'm in the minority, but I like my bull and will continue to run one, and I'd suggest to anyone that they have one too


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## WVhillbilly (Mar 11, 2016)

We live in southern WV and usually throughout the winter 1 round bale would last the herd (usually around 20 head) a week, but that was with them still feeding on the pasture grass where available


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## Bungiex88 (Jan 2, 2016)

Yea I already have a fenced pasture I rent to the neighbor farmer. The pasture is close to 30 acres about half woods half pasture field with a creek and a pond. The reason I wanted hereford is because they seem to do really good down in that pasture. They have no shelter and the farmer throws a round bale at them during the winter. And theres new calves every year. He doesn't do nothing but feed hay in the winter.


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## Bungiex88 (Jan 2, 2016)

Thanks for the input. And the other neighbor came down and offered me black Angus cattle for free the other day but had to decline since I'm not set up to take care of them yet.


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## kroeter (Sep 9, 2013)

I would not be afraid at all to get your own bull, even with 3-4 cows to breed. We have 3 producing cows with a young heifer that will make it 4 down the road and we have our own bull and it sure beats when we tried to AI and bring in a bull. Just let mother nature take care of it. Pull his heifers out during weening and you'll have calves every year. If it ever comes to limiting the number of calves, seperate bull

I know a lot of people told me NOT to get a bull for so few cows, but it is the best investment we made. Good old mother nature at work.

Best of luck


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Be sure the hay you feed is high quality hay. I seem to remember some lady who had starving cattle (she had photos of them) even though she fed them hay. Turns out she was buying real cheap from some guy who didn't really sell high quality feed and the hay was taken to some guy who analyzes feed ratios and turns out the hay was extremely low in protein or some such important ratio therefore the cattle were starving even though they had access to hay. She had to throw out the hay and buy high quality hay to save her herd from starving to death.


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## Empire (Jan 7, 2016)

I second that, not all hay is equal! If feeding lower quality hay, make sure to supplement with minerals and a high quality grain ration


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## ihuntgsps (Mar 10, 2008)

Depending on your fencing, experience in dealing with cattle, I would not hesitate to get a bull for 3-4 cows (prefer cows over heifers).

You can buy young bulls, have them do their job, then sell them to be processed for beef. Next breeding season buy another and repeat the process.

I have done this with my Dexter cattle and have done very well. I try to time the bull to be about 24 months old when I am done with him and they make great beef contrary to what many people believe (bulls are tough/off flavor/etc.)


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

ihuntgsps, I realize many people do this (process a young bull after he has bred the cows), but I think this practice is a disservice with a registered breed because you are killing off potentially great genetics before you even have a chance to see how the calves turn out. You might as well have a commercial operation on a small scale with animals that have only beef value, in my opinion.


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## CelestielAcres (Sep 16, 2016)

I jumped right in and brought home 4 bred cows years ago. I also brought home a bull for just those 4. I wouldn't change a thing! I think keeping my bull would be worth it even if I downsized to less cows. I enjoy knowing what personality I am dealing with when out on pasture with my bull. I can't imagine changing it up yearly, add in that I have kids who frequent the pastures. He produces calves each year, is respectful of my space when dealing with the cows and other stock and he never bothers my children. 

No worries of disease coming in, no time and energy having to be put out to find a new bull. I figure my only costs in keeping him full time are the hay in the winter and worming doses. I don't think I have ever had to run him into the vet for anything. Running him year round for me is far more time/cost effective for us. 

As far as the haying, small squares are going to be a lot of work to feed IMO. (We fed small squares when we lived in Idaho) We still don't cut and bale our own hay, it is more cost effective to have the Amish Mennonites come in and hay our meadow. We buy from them any additional hay we might need. It might prove more cost effective for a time to have someone come hay your land, many do split shares here so each party keeps half or 1/3 of what comes off the land. Might be an option for you. 

I did our calculations a long time ago for fed needs but I believe generally you should aim for 3% of body weight per day (this takes into account waste). Once you figure out poundage of animals you are feeding you just need to figure how many day/months you will have to feed. I always plan to have on hand 5 months of hay for everyone. I probably only need to plan for 4 months max but I would rather have feed left over then run out (we store ours in part of our barn) We are in KS and depending on our winters we might start feeding hay in Nov/Dec and feed thru March/April. Edited to add we do round bales, 1600-1800lbs bales. Move them out with the tractor, tip them up, remove netting and then drop a ring on them. 
Good Luck!


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## nosqrls (Jun 9, 2012)

If you do buy a bull find the best that you can afford for the breed you are looking for. I see so many times people spending their money on expensive cows and a cheap bull. Then they wonder why their calves don't bring the money when they go to sell them. Your bull is half the genetics of your herd in just one animal. So of course he should be the most expensive. But if you find a really nice bull slightly older and he can still breed a small herd grab him if he is cheap. use him a couple/three maybe more years.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

nosqrls said:


> If you do buy a bull find the best that you can afford for the breed you are looking for. I see so many times people spending their money on expensive cows and a cheap bull. Then they wonder why their calves don't bring the money when they go to sell them. Your bull is half the genetics of your herd in just one animal. So of course he should be the most expensive. But if you find a really nice bull slightly older and he can still breed a small herd grab him if he is cheap. use him a couple/three maybe more years.


I see too many beginners buy a bull based on the fact that he has a scrotum. Buying a craigslist cull to supply have of the DNA for your calves is foolish.

Borrowing a bull runs the risk of diseases, some that never leave your herd. Calving ease is critical, yet often discounted with, " I don't know, whatever." After the vets hauls a hip locked calf out of your cow, in several pieces, it becomes important. 

Some good quality bulls become available as those with larger herds upgrade to younger quality bulls. The downside to that is that people also cull bulls that failed to impregnate the herd or have gotten so big that they injure the heifers trying to breed.

The thought of AI is daunting. Getting 4 or 5 cows cycling, picking out a suitable sire, getting a tech to do it, maybe a few times, sounds like a lot of work. 
But in reality, you should be out there feeding and checking their condition daily, anyway. Easy to learn how to detect a cow in heat. The total cost of AI is going to be less than feeding an inferior bull, hands down.

After a ten year gain in beef prices, we are on the edge of a drop in prices. Whatever you buy now will not make you money when you sell. We are at the "Buy High" stage in the cycle.

A decade ago, drought forced many ranchers to sell off their herds. This created a glut in the market, followed by a shortage. At the same time, beef exports increased. With prices on the rise, profits assured, farmers were holding their heifers as breeders, building up their herds, further reducing the number of slaughter cattle going to market. That pushed demand even higher, encouraging more people to hold on to heifers and more people jumped onto the band wagon of raising cattle. 

Grain farmers faced with low commodity prices, bought cattle to increase the value of their crop through beef. 

But now, supply has caught up with demand. Just like the housing bubble, it doesn't take much surplus to send prices crashing. A 10% drop in prices will get enough cattle sent to market to suppress the market further. That always results in a price slide. Then it goes to panic mode. Everyone wants to get out of cattle before the price drops again. That pushes the price down. Those left holding the bag will be forced to sell at a loss and often go out of business. 

Then the cycle starts all over again, 5 to 10 years later.


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