# Buckshot versus birdshot



## Limon

Okay, I've heard the arguments for both loads in a self-defensive situation. Buckshot is larger and does more damage. At close distances, birdshot hasn't had a chance to separate and hits like one big slug. What I'm curious about is how close close has to be for birdshot to be effective. 

I know I wouldn't want to wait until someone is just 5 feet from me before I defend myself, and in a self-defensive situation, it's likely to be under 20 feet. Is birdshot going to annoy someone at that distance or is it still a good load? I can't shoot anything smaller than #4 at the local range, so I haven't had anywhere to try putting holes in paper to see for myself. Hoping to get permission to shoot on someone's land soon to try out some different loads personally.


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## RonM

I am not going to shoot someone to annoy them , I will positively, absolutely without equivocation be trying to kill them or I'll leave the gun in the closet..I vote for 00 buckshot


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## simi-steading

30 feet with 7 1/2 or 8 shot with a modified choke is going to be a pretty tight pattern.. maybe 6 inches at most with a little scattering around that... About the same sized pattern buck shot will leave at the same distance, but the buck shot will have more energy behind it because it is loaded with more powder, and has larger pellets.. 

I'd not want to be shot with bird shot at 50 feet.. it's going to do a whole lot of damage.. I'd rather be shot with a 9mm at 50 feet.

Inside the home, I leave my shotgun loaded with 000 shot... less pellets, but bigger than 00..

Here's a good site with pattern examples with different types of shot.. 
http://www.guns.com/2011/04/02/is-birdshot-even-a-choice-for-home-defense/


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## Limon

Ah, thanks for that link! I have a 20 gauge, and trying to find buck larger than #3 is proving to be hard. I've seen some offered on websites, but it's always out-of-stock.


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## unregistered41671

Loads of info here on this site

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm


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## joejeep92

i have turkey loads in my bedside shotgun. At in home distances it will blow a hole through a guy you could play catch through and hopefully not penetrate too many of the walls behind. My dad responded to a call in the early 90's where a little old lady had shot a burglar. The lady had a shotgun with her on the porch. Two men approached. She told them not to get any closer. They advanced. She shot at a distance of 15 yards with #6 shot out of a 12 ga double barrel and hit the man in the stomach and from my dad's account as the first responder the man was in two pieces. Bird shot is plenty deadly...


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## dkhern

im not for sure now but used to be the only 20ga buckshot available was no 3. ive taken squirrels heads off at 15-20yd just hold off a little. penatration is not what you need in home defense. you dont shoot at what you cant see. youre not going to be shooting thru walls. what you have to worry about is misses that go thru walls. imo bird shot will put downn any intruder at across the room distances and will be less likely to go thru a wall if you miss


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## Bearfootfarm

Birdshot is for BIRDS
Use Buckshot if you're betting your life on it

Read the info Possum Belly posted if you want* facts*



> from my dad's account as the first responder *the man was in two pieces*


You realize that's not *really* true don't you?
It's that sort of misinformation that gets people hurt


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

we had a **** i shot with a 20ga pump with full choke , with #6 bird shot the gun was loaded with the first 3 up as #6 bird then 2 slugs , distance was 15-20 feet i shot 4 times and hit the **** with 4 shots , i could see i was hitting it , but it kept walking till i hit it with shot 4 a slug 

if it won't stop a **** why would i trust it to stop a bad guy. sure it's gonna hurt , it might kill , but not so sure about stopping , you need penetration to stop , you have to hit a major artery , heart, lungs ,brain or spinal cord or plain take out bone structure to stop

shooting squirrel with #6 i would find shot under the hide and just into the meat 1/4 inch penitration sure i was shooting at 15 -20 yards rather than 5-7 but even at 5 yards it won't be deep enough to hit vital organs with any kind of regularity 

this isn't tv most people don't fall over dead the instant they are shot

#4 buckshot would be a compromise on enough penetration to stop but less than 00 or 000

there was a video of a dr discussing treatment mainly blood replacement and slowing the heart and keeping blood pressure low till the bleeding is stopped and had a bunch of xrays of actual gun shot injuries for the purpose of teaching drs how to treat these injuries , the xray of a patient shot with bird shot and they didn't specify the size showed about 3/4 of an inch of penetration , the wound picture looked very bad but no organs were reached.


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## Pops2

There are as many anecdotes for as against. I've seen a button buck taken at 80yds w/ #4 birdshot, & met a guy that accidentally killed his dog trying to pepper it using 6s at the same range. Likewise I have shot a squirrel at 20 yards using 6s only to have them run off through the trees (come to think of it I've never lost one shot with sizes 7-8 & all I have lost were hit with 6, 4 or steel BB size shot).
My recommendation, do your own pattern & penetration tests and decide accordingly.


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## JJ Grandits

This question comes up every once and awhile. The average defensive shooting in the home is at 17 feet. I have taken a 1 1/8 oz. trap load filled with 71/2 shot and made a very nice silver dollar size hole through two 1/2 pieces of plywood at 25 ft. This was from a modified choke. At that distance 1 oz. of birdshot and 1 oz of buckshot are pretty much the same. Go to Gunblast.com, there is a video about using birdshot for defensive purposes that will put all your fears aside. When the poop hits the fan anything I feed into my 12ga. will do the trick. I tend to keep some #4 buckshot handy but 71/2 or 8's make big holes too. The terminal ballistics are devistating. The folks who say that birdshot will just "sting" them or bounce off a heavy jacket are morons.


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## JawjaBoy

I have done a few tests with shells that I reloaded to factory "heavy field load" specs of 3Â¼ dram eq. powder and 1Â¼ ounces of #6 shot. From a modified choke these loads would cut 2x4s in half from anything inside of 30 feet. At inside of a house range, I'd sure hate to know I was on the receiving end of one of these loads.


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## JPiantedosi

My shot gun is loaded with 2 3/4 1.25oz loads of #5 shot and is truely cylinder bore (hacksawed to 18.5in) the last 2 are 1oz slugs. I figure if someone is in my house there is no where where I will be shooting more than 10-15ft and if a load of 5s wont do it then the next 4 shots ought to. And if they are more than 15ft away likely they are outside and I have time to grab the AR or the phone.

Now this time of year outside of 10-15ft I might wory about getting through someones carhartt or leather coat with the #5s.

Jim


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## JJ Grandits

As I said in another thread, I don't know too much about rifles, but Im a shotgun man. Basically a 12 ga. pump gun at close range,like across the living room, could be loaded with rice and still hit like the fist of an angry God. 1 1/4 oz. of number 5 's from a cylinder bore would lay someone down in a heartbeat at 20 yds. If it hits the fan and I had a choice between an AK47 and a 12ga pump shotgun, with all the loads I have available.................. not even worth thinking about.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

I think it is safe to say every one should test some shells from their own gun , I shot a bunch of #8s at the range to pattern them and at 7 yards they had a spread of about 6 inches from edge to edge from my modified choke barrel at 25 yards the pattern was nearly 2 feet across

4s, and 6s may perform very differently and different guns and loads even of the same shot size may preform very differently you should put it on paper , maybe shoot a few pumpkins and see what you get with your gun.


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## Jim-mi

Yes at this time of year the 'Artic' Carhart's I have would go a long way to absorbing an awful lot of the energy from bird shot. 
The flesh could be 'open' but the penetration would be minimum..


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## JJ Grandits

At 16 yd trap a load of 8's normally don't even start to leave the wad untill just before the trap house. I will do some more experimenting and let you know how I make out. I've got some Cartharts to blow up.


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## joejeep92

Bearfootfarm said:


> Birdshot is for BIRDS
> Use Buckshot if you're betting your life on it
> 
> Read the info Possum Belly posted if you want* facts*
> 
> 
> 
> You realize that's not *really* true don't you?
> It's that sort of misinformation that gets people hurt


You realize that I believe that it is fully true? Noone is going to get hurt by me or anybody using birdshot besides the guy at the end of the barrrel. Eye witness is a fact there bucko.


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## joejeep92

Bearfootfarm said:


> Birdshot is for BIRDS
> Use Buckshot if you're betting your life on it
> 
> Read the info Possum Belly posted if you want* facts*
> 
> 
> 
> You realize that's not *really* true don't you?
> It's that sort of misinformation that gets people hurt


And don't insult my intelligence by accusing me of lying as well of being stupid.


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## Chuck R.

I load #1 Buck in the magazine of my Benelli M1S90 and Hornady TAP OO in my shell holder. My longest shot potential in my house is a little over 35â so I use something that will be effective at the greatest distance in which I may have to take a shot. My chosen gun/load will keep all of its pellets on a silhouette target out to 21 meters reliably. The following provides some good information

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm




> Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.





> Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches.


 
Hereâs a decent article on shotgun wound ballistics from the Western Journal of Medicine of special note is page 155 which deals with mortality rates based on distance: 

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1238294&pageindex=3#page

In two tactical shotgun classes I've taken, the birdshot question arose and was not recommended. This is due to the lack of penetration. The FBI penetration tests call for 12â with handgun ammo, this takes into account outer clothing and shots at âbad anglesâ IE through limbs etc. The reason for the desired 12" is because the only reliable way to stop a human attacker instantly is by hitting 3 locations, brain, brain-stem, or central nervous system above the waist. Anything else and they can still pull a trigger until they bleed out. 

FBI Testing procedures which prescribe a minimum of 12â of penetration:

http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

Hereâs another decent read:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#SHOTGUN%20AMMUNITION




> The single biggest mistake people make is to assume that the power of the shotgun is such that it negates having to select proper ammo. Through no experience or research they might come to the conclusion that birdshot is a perfectly acceptable choice for self defense? Why? Because the "feel" it's adequate for the most part.





> Nothing is further from the truth. Once again, the shotgun ammunition needs to perform the same function as rifle and pistol ammo, which is to penetrate about 12" into ballistic gelatin. Fragmentation/expansion are usually not an issue in shotgun ammo, so that factor can be ignored for the most part.


Everybody worries about over-penetration of his or her weapon, but the potential is for two (or more) people with guns. I know the fields of fire within my house, IE whose bedroom is where, the other guy doesnât care. There's no free lunch here, anything that will reliably stop an attacker is going to penetrate. 

Chuck


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

JJ Grandits said:


> At 16 yd trap a load of 8's normally don't even start to leave the wad untill just before the trap house. I will do some more experimenting and let you know how I make out. I've got some Cartharts to blow up.


I had figured very the same that at 7-10 yards the shot would mostly still be in the cup 

but i think it varies a fair amount based on the load, the gun and the shot cup 

a fair amount being a minimum of 1 inch to max of around 12 inches between 3 and 10 yards based on shell and barrel combinations.

but i tried it with some Winchester low brass #8 shot dove/target loads 2 weeks ago at the range shooting into clean butcher paper stapled to card board on my target stand 

i still had a good hole where the wad went thru the paper but also about a 6 inch shot pattern from a 26 in mod choke barrel

the only reason i had this box of 8shot was that someone gave it to me years ago i don't normally ever buy shot smaller than 7 1/2 

you wouldn't happen to have a freezer burnt turkey you could thaw and wrap in the carharts if you put a water bottle in the turkey then covered it in carharts and shot it i would be interested if the water bottle leaked when done


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## Bearfootfarm

> You realize that *I believe* that it is fully true? Noone is going to get hurt by me or anybody using birdshot besides the guy at the end of the barrrel. Eye witness is a fact there bucko


I'm sure *you believe* it.

I'vs shot many small animals at* closer* distances, and the* only* thing to end up in "two pieces" was a Green Snake



> And don't insult my intelligence by accusing me oflying as well ofbeing stupid.


I never said either of those things.
I simply pointed out your claim defies the laws of physics

Read Chuck R's post carefully
His has the truth


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## Bearfootfarm

> I know the *fields of fire* within my house


That's more important than worrying about overpenetration.

Simply crouching down so you're shooting at a slight upward angle can solve *most* penetration problems


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## JJ Grandits

Much has to do with the distance between the gun and the taget. The boxoftruth information has always raised questions with me as does the "minimum" penetration. At 270 lbs. 12 inches of penetration goes almost all the way through me. I still stand that a 1 oz. load traveling at 1300 ft. per sec. dumping all of its energy into a body creates enough trama to take care of the situation. If you are hit by a pick up truck doing 50 mph you don't get much penetration either.


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## Jolly

At average social distances, birdshot. #6 or #4 is fine.

I've helped cut up enough corpses, I have some definite, first hand opinions on the matter.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

it's 12 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin 12 inches of 10%gel is not the same as 12" of coat, shirt, skin, bone, organs, bone, skin ,shirt , coat


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## tarbe

There is some serious mis-information in this thread.

I don't like to call people out for their beliefs, so let me just say that my 12 ga stays loaded with 00 buck.

If I shoot someone with this shotgun, whether at 10 feet or 50 yards, they will likely not survive.

At 10 feet, birdshot gives no advantage over 00 buck, when it comes to stopping a threat. At 50 yards, there is no comparison in terminal effect.

Birdshot is a compromise not worth making. If I am shooting, it is to kill.

Maybe I am stuck in the past....but when I was in the Marines, we carried Remington 870 12 gauge shotguns. The ONLY ammo the Marines issued was 00 buck. 

We hunted humans, not grouse. 


Tim


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## Chuck R.

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> it's 12 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin 12 inches of 10%gel is not the same as 12" of coat, shirt, skin, bone, organs, bone, skin ,shirt , coat


Exactly! 

And hereâs the best reasoning Iâve read to support âwhyâ 12 inches of penetration matters: Again, this is *Doctor Gary Roberts, DocGKR*. And found here:

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

His material is well worth the time it takes to read, and will clear up a bunch of misinformation:



> The important question to be asked, of course, is: What makes a good self-defense load?
> 
> The short answer to that question is that ammo should meet the FBI's requirement of:
> 1) at least 12" of penetration in properly prepared ballistic gelatin/soft tissue, and
> 2) expand to the largest diameter possible in order to cause the largest possible wound.
> 
> While some people question the 12" penetration limit, it is not subject to discussion in this article. The FBI is deemed to be more knowledgeable than most, and it is backed up my Dr. Martin Fackler and others who have spent their life discussing the subject. Duncan McPherson, in his book "Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics and the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma" actually argues that 15" is not an unrealistic requirement a bullet should obtain. He does point out, however, that 11.5" of penetration shouldn't completely disqualify a bullet from being acceptable either. While 12" should be a minimum requirement, 18" is the approximate maximum desired penetration depth. Beyond that, and the bullet is likely to exit the intended target and retain enough energy to cause others harm if a person should be in the line of fire. *Obviously you should never take the shot if you're not sure of what's beyond your target and rely on your ammunition to do your job of being prudent.*
> 
> *I will briefly point out that the 12" penetration requirement stems from the fact that not all shots are frontal-torso shots. Many times the bullet must penetrate significantly more tissue, such as when the person being shot has his arms extended in front of him, if the shot is at an oblique angle, etc. You choose ammunition based on a worst-case scenario, not the best.*
> 
> "But," you say, "there's no way it's THAT important to have a bullet that's only marginally better than my favorite load." That may be well and true. I know you're not planning on missing, and that you figure you'll be able to put a couple of shots center-of-mass with no problems. Don't overestimate your ability when the lead starts flying. There won't be a perfect Weaver stance involved, trigger discipline will go to hell, and carefully aimed shots will be non-existent. How many times have you seen shootouts on "Cops" where they're 2 yards apart, shoot a bunch of times, and yet every shot manages to miss?
> 
> Not only that, but hitting the VITAL area of your target is exceedingly difficult. The best case scenario - a full-frontal torso shot - is "easy". The problem is that as the angle of the attacker change, the point of aim has to vary considerably in order to hit the vital structures.


I "bolded" and underlined the best rationale.

Chuck


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## Limon

Grrrr. Okay, the site ate my last two attempts to reply. 

Thanks everyone! There's a lot of valuable information on here. As soon as I can, I'm going to run a variety of shoot through my gun at different distances to see how it performs. Unfortunately, the one local range is indoor and can't shoot anything smaller than #4, and the other is in a state park and you can only shoot shot at the skeet range. 

Since it's a 20-gauge, the largest I can routinely find is #3 or #4. I've seen #2 and #0 on websites but never in stock. I'll be getting some of each to test when it comes in.


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## JJ Grandits

Boy I sure love a good controverys! Im going to do some experimenting too. As I said before, this subject comes up from time to time. I know it will come up again. For the record, if you are a drug crazed person who breaks into my house the odds are you are gong to get hit by a 1 oz. load of 12ga. # 4 buckshot ( 27, .24 dia. pellets) square in the chest at about 12 feet. It might be a 1 1/4 oz load of high brass # 4 shot. Either way, I think I ruined your day.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

pictures , i will try and get some pictures also


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## Jolly

The "problem" with buckshot in a shooting, is its lethality. I'll be the first to agree that it does a much better job at thirty yards than fine shot.

A few points...

1. If you shoot somebody at thirty yards, you're going to jail. Even in a castle doctrine state, lethal force requires the imminent danger threshold to be breached.

2. If you shoot somebody in the back, even at fairly close range, you might go to jail. 

3. I once saw a guy tried for Murder 2, because he shot a guy trying to rob him. The criminal was armed, but the defender shot and killed him with a bullet to the criminal's side. The DA argued that the criminal had been scared off by the sight of the defender's weapon and was turning to flee. At that point, see point #2.

4. Buckshot inplies lethal mindset. Just as a black rifle is seen as a "bad" weapon by a jury, buckshot is seen as a "bad" load. It helps your case in a shooting, if your weapon looks like grandpa's shotgun and your load is grandpa's squirrel load.

Juries are funny animals. I prefer to try to stack all odds in my favor.

But that's just my opinion, YMMV.


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## Bearfootfarm

> I once saw a guy tried for Murder 2, because he shot a guy trying to rob him. *The criminal was armed*, but the defender shot and killed him with a bullet to the criminal's side. The DA argued that the criminal had been scared off by the sight of the defender's weapon and was turning to flee. At that point, see point #2.


*How* was the criminal armed?
Was the man *convicted*?


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## Limon

I'm in Maryland. My NRA instructor was a Md state trooper firearms instructor. He said here any shooting under 15 feet runs the risk of a DA charging the homeowner, as they think you can't claim you were in fear for your life at any distances longer than that. Even within the state, it depends on where you live. I'm in a more conservative, rural area that views personal defense more reasonably than the urban areas around Baltimore and DC do. 

It depends entirely where you live what you can and cannot do legally to protect yourself. And he did mention that the weapon and load used is taken into consideration by juries and DA. It's why he recommended not using anything with the word "magnum" in the title because of its connotations.

Interestingly, though, you are allowed to shoot a fleeing person here if you witnessed them hurt someone else.


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## kbshorts

I like to keep mine loaded with #4 buckshot, I am most likely to be grabbing it to respond to a ruckus in the chicken house rather than an intruder. The additional pellets in the number 4 help to make up for my poor aim and hurried shooting, which is usually the case as the varmit sprints across the field. I think any load is going to be a compromise in various situations. Find a load that works for you and shoot as much as possible.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

kbshorts said:


> I like to keep mine loaded with #4 buckshot, I am most likely to be grabbing it to respond to a ruckus in the chicken house rather than an intruder. The additional pellets in the number 4 help to make up for my poor aim and hurried shooting, which is usually the case as the varmit sprints across the field. I think any load is going to be a compromise in various situations. Find a load that works for you and shoot as much as possible.


EXACTLY if it is your go to gun you want it to work as well on a dog or **** at 50 feet as it works on an intruder at 15


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## Limon

20 Gauge Winchester Super-X Buckshot, 2-3/4" Shell, #3 Buck, 1200 fps from a distance of 35 feet. Three shots right-handed, two shots left-handed. Only the third time I've ever fired a long gun of any type.


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## Dutch 106

I decided years ago for a 7 shot shotgun 12 ga 2 3/4 shells The one in the tube is a no 6 birdshot then a couple #4 buck (27 pellets of .25 caliber then 2 shells with 00 or 9 pellets of .32 caliber, then two one ounce slugs. I figure the nearest to the farthest, and if it looks like it might be a fight or may not be you have that #6 birdshot to rack out of the gun to declare you really have a shotgun to hand and any smart person runs or declares themselves loudly. Then after it all calms down you have a heck of a time finding the ejected birdshot but thast lets you cuss at something constructive, ask me how I know!
Dutch


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Limon said:


> 20 Gauge Winchester Super-X Buckshot, 2-3/4" Shell, #3 Buck, 1200 fps from a distance of 35 feet. Three shots right-handed, two shots left-handed. Only the third time I've ever fired a long gun of any type.


nice target , where were you aiming , was the X sitting on the front sight or did you cover the X
this target looks good but if you covered the X with the bead you may need to use more of a 6 oclock hold for smaller targets like raccoon or 50% of your shot will go over their back, these type of targets are great for learning quick aim, but you may want something with a smaller point to aim at to more accurately determine the pattern for use on smaller targets 
another thing i have found is the angle your shooting at makes a difference , when shooting down at short distances meaning greater down angle i almost always have to aim lower to hit what i am aiming at example a pop can on the ground at 10 yards i have to aim at the bottom edge often to get a good hit but the same can at 10 yards 4 feet off the ground on a target stand i can aim right at the middle for the same hit.


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## Limon

Thanks, GCP. I overcompensated on those. The first two trips to the range the shots ended a little on the low side, so I deliberately aimed a bit high this time. Turns out it was too high. Maybe next week will be just right. 

At this point, I'm learning to shoot strictly for self-defense - and fun! I had a bad incident with a pistol when I was a kid that left me leery for years, but I decided it was time to get over that. I found I really enjoy shooting. I'm having a blast learning to use a handgun, pardon the pun.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

any time every pellet is in the black you did fine , and lower belly groin shots aren't so bad , just so that you learn were to aim for smaller targets 

great pattern at 35 yards , it is probably no bigger than your fist at 7 yards and as others have pointed almost one mass at in the house room distances of 2-15 feet

yes buck shot is absolutely devastating at a range of a few feet , my dad was on a murder trial back in the early 80s where the victim was shot with a 12ga with buck shot from just a few feet 

If your ever ready to share , i would be interested in hearing about your bad incident some times they are things we can learn from , my uncle accidentally shot the piano while i was sitting next to him when i was a kid , it wakes a person up to why they need to be careful , thankfully no one was hurt in a room full of family , another uncle was shot (he lived) while boating probably an accident never found the shooter but also points out why we need to never aim at any people we do not intend to shoot for legitimate reasons and why no gun is unloaded / treated as such.


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## Limon

When I was about 7, we went to visit relatives down in southern Virginia. Their teenage son had a number of guns. He asked if we wanted to shoot them. He gave me a pistol - don't recall the make - but it was so big I could barely hold it, and I wasn't a runt. The recoil put me flat on my back and I took out a pretty big limb from the tree. He thought it was hilarious and wanted me to shoot something even bigger. It scared me, not to mention made my hands feel like they were going to fall off. I didn't shoot a firearm again until the first week of January. 

This is also from last night using one of the range's 22lr semi handguns. I have been using a BB gun at home to practice sight picture and alignment. It seems to be helping my aim as my first time shooting had hits all over the place.


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## Jolly

Bearfootfarm said:


> *How* was the criminal armed?
> Was the man *convicted*?


The criminal had a 38 revolver. The citizen was carrying a small .45 ACP.

The first trial resulted in a mistrial. The second trial resulted in acquittal.

I know the attorney used by the shooter. He doesn't get out of bed for less than $20K upfront and expenses.


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## HuskyBoris

I use a .410 single shot with a slug for now,it's small and manueuvarableI want to get a riot type 12 gauge for home defense though,just can't find the dollars.I also have a 20 gauge but it's a bird gun and 1/2 a mile long and hard to move around the house with it which is why I use the 410,I guess if there are 2 of them it will make good bat as well.


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## Bearfootfarm

> The criminal had a* 38 revolver*. The citizen was carrying a small .45 ACP.


That's what I thought.
It's perfectly logical he could have been standing sideways and STILL been a threat.

The DA was grasping at straws


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## Pops2

Limon said:


> When I was about 7, we went to visit relatives down in southern Virginia. Their teenage son had a number of guns. He asked if we wanted to shoot them. He gave me a pistol - don't recall the make - but it was so big I could barely hold it, and I wasn't a runt. The recoil put me flat on my back and I took out a pretty big limb from the tree. He thought it was hilarious and wanted me to shoot something even bigger. It scared me, not to mention made my hands feel like they were going to fall off. I didn't shoot a firearm again until the first week of January.
> 
> This is also from last night using one of the range's 22lr semi handguns. I have been using a BB gun at home to practice sight picture and alignment. It seems to be helping my aim as my first time shooting had hits all over the place.


You're right handed and jerking the trigger that's why the group is off to the right of center. It's strung out vertically because you're breathing while you shoot. Take a flashlight or something else of similar size to a pistol grip. Tape a clothes pin to it. Use it to practice a firm gentle SQUEEZE, by opening the clothespin with JUST THE TIP of the trigger finger. The breathing is just a matter of concentration and not hurrying when you shoot to develop the muscle memory. You can easily cut your group in half.


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## Limon

Thanks, Pops2. Those were ten groups of 10 rounds each, spread out over some time. The person shooting next to me and the range officer both stopped by to talk to me at different times. I don't know if that makes any difference in the grouping or not.


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## Bearfootfarm

> I don't know if that makes any difference in the grouping or not.


It actually *helps* show your* trends*, since you don't start to compensate by adjusting the aimpoint.

Or it could also be you just need to adjust the sights a little
Get some "target dots" so you can have a* SMALL* aiming point










http://www.thompsontarget.com/Products/self-adhesive/hotspots4.html

Shoot from a a *steady rest with sandbags* when adusting the sights, and then try shooting some offhand groups. You may see some improvement, and you'll know any error is your technique, and not the sighting mechanics


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## Bearfootfarm

This shows the results of some common technical errors:


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## Pops2

Bearfootfarm said:


> This shows the results of some common technical errors:


That chart is incorrect. People anticipating recoil almost exclusively push forward when pulling the trigger and this causes the muzzle to go down. Handguns tend to be straight down. Rifle shooters tend to push with the shoulder so the muzzle goes down and toward the nonfiring hand. Milking the trigger (literally pulling like an udder teat) has the same effect but pulls the round toward the firing hand. Jerking the trigger can mimic milking but is just as likely to push away from the firing hand without significant rise or drop of muzzle. Not shooting at the same respiratory pause causes vertical stringing. Always breathing in when pulling the trigger raises the impacts. Always shooting while breathing out puts the rounds low. Horizontal stringing indicates the shooters is trying to muscle the rounds in. A "shotgun blast" is either lifting the head or looking at the target instead of the sight. In short there are as many different faults as there are shooters and only a few can be definitely spotted on the target alone.


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## Limon

Bearfootfarm said:


> Shoot from a a *steady rest with sandbags* when adusting the sights, and then try shooting some offhand groups. You may see some improvement, and you'll know any error is your technique, and not the sighting mechanics


I'm not sure the range would appreciate me fiddling with the sights on one of their handguns, especially since I don't know how - yet.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

I wouldn't be to sure your doing anything wrong just yet , that is a big target and not everyone picked the middle the same every time , the white writing and wring is small enough that you can't see it very well beyond a few yards.

like bear foot said , smaller target 

a stack of cheapo paper plates and those orange target dots make great targets on the cheap , i also use butcher paper and those orange dots , or some times different shapes cut from colored paper i like inverted triangles like a V for sight in of rifles , contrast and crisp edges make for good sight in targets , the white butcher paper shows up the hits well , i use a car board backer on my target stand , just what ever boxes i can get a big enough section out of.

the silhouette targets are made to make you learn center mass shooting , for targets that don't come with an orange dot or X on them.

aim small hit small

enjoy yourself and keep learning

a good staple gun is a great thing in a range bag quick and efficient way to hang targets on card board and secure cardboard to wood target stands


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## Bearfootfarm

Limon said:


> I'm not sure the range would appreciate me fiddling with the sights on one of *their *handguns, especially since I don't know how - yet.


LOL

I was thinking it was YOUR gun


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## Bearfootfarm

> That chart is incorrect


You'll have to discuss that with whoever came up with it.
I'm sure their opinions will vary


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## Limon

Bearfootfarm said:


> LOL
> 
> I was thinking it was YOUR gun


That was from using a 22 semi from the range. I have a 38 Special, but it's a snub-nose and not fun to shoot. I have some Pachmayr grips on order for it that other owners swear help a lot. I do practice with it, though, so I'll be familiar with it if I ever need to use it, but the 22 is a lot more economical for target practice. And easier on the hands!

The local range is indoor, so they have the automated overhead target holders. They told me the last time I was in I could bring in paper plates to use as targets, and that's what I've been using in the basement with the BB gun. I use a Sharpie to mark the center of the plate for something to aim at.


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## Bearfootfarm

> I use *a Sharpie* to mark the center of the plate for something to aim at.


That helps, but the orange dots give better contrast to the* black* sights on most handguns

You also find FREE printable targets (Assuming you have a printer)
http://www.varmintal.com/atarg.htm

http://www.targetz.com/targets01.htm

http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf.html


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## Ross

I'm no expert but the general consensus around here was to use #4 to dispatch coyotes and ***** around the barns. Just big enough to get the job done and allow for some less than perfect aim. But a compromise for sure.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

the other thing about using a sharpie is i just don't get as crisp and clean of a line as a cut piece of paper or a orange target dot , and that plays with your eyes when your trying to aim at it 

camouflage in a way having inconsistent unclean edges 

you should try shooting 22 silhouettes when half the paint is missing that mix of grey and black with unclean edges on a background of brown sand add in a little green of some weeds growing from the sand and it gets even harder 

you want something that contrasts and has clean edges if you can


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## Limon

Okay, I picked up some orange dots while I was out today. They came in a mixed package of 1, 2 and 4-inch sizes. We'll see if I can hit any of those next time I go to the range.


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## Shrek

Limon said:


> Okay, I've heard the arguments for both loads in a self-defensive situation. Buckshot is larger and does more damage. At close distances, birdshot hasn't had a chance to separate and hits like one big slug. What I'm curious about is how close close has to be for birdshot to be effective.
> 
> I know I wouldn't want to wait until someone is just 5 feet from me before I defend myself, and in a self-defensive situation, it's likely to be under 20 feet. Is birdshot going to annoy someone at that distance or is it still a good load? I can't shoot anything smaller than #4 at the local range, so I haven't had anywhere to try putting holes in paper to see for myself. Hoping to get permission to shoot on someone's land soon to try out some different loads personally.


Both have value for home defense. Ayoob once advised in a G&A article that a 20 inch barrel 12 gauge loaded with #8 birdshot was a better choice for home shotgun defense as an ounce and a half of shot is a ounce and a half and both have adequate penetrability however a miss with birdshot its less likely to penetrate an interior wall as buck shot.

Our range master went a bit further in saying at a distance of 10 to 15 feet indoors the #8 will tear up the meat like a quisenart set on mince and not usually penetrate drywall behind it.


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## JJ Grandits

That is pretty much my point of view. Nice to know that I share it with someone with the reputation of Ayoob. Too many people have the Dirty Harry syndrome. If they aren't shooting a .500 Nitro Express with 32ft. of penetration they are under gunned.


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## Chuck R.

JJ Grandits said:


> That is pretty much my point of view. Nice to know that I share it with someone with the reputation of Ayoob. Too many people have the Dirty Harry syndrome. If they aren't shooting a .500 Nitro Express with 32ft. of penetration they are under gunned.


But according to this article written by Mr. Ayoob, he prefers #1 Buck for HD:




> Buckshot is a very close range proposition. It is actually at its best as an antipersonnel load, favored by the military for jungle warfare and embassy guard duties (it proved horrendously effective in the trenches during WWI), and by police. *This writer uses buckshot as a home defense shotgun load, with #1 Express (full power) buckshot in the semiautomatic 12 guage.* This delivers 16 .30 caliber pellets that strike with optimum penetration for erect bipeds, and with optimum pattern saturation at distances from close range to 15 yards. These pellets will normally stay inside the assailant's body with a front to back shot, reducing danger to innocent bystanders who might be located unseen behind a violent criminal. The full power Express load is required to operate most semiautomatic shotguns reliably. This is not a concern in the slide-action or double barrel, and a lighter "Tactical" load with less recoil makes sense for that type of home defense 12 gauge. #1 buckshot is not currently available in a Tactical loading, making 00 12 gauge Tactical buckshot the optimum fallback choice. In a 20 gauge shotgun, the best home defense load is #3 buckshot, which throws a charge of 20 pellets, each about a quarter inch in diameter.


http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob031221.html

I guess heâs either got a short memory, or some of that âDirty Harry syndromeâ going for him.

Chuck


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## JJ Grandits

I like #4 buckshot. 27 .24 cal. pellets will ruin someones day. But a load of #8's from across the room will also do the job.


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## psegnatelli

have a lump at the end of my right eyebrow. Had it since I was 12 or 13.

I was walking the edge of a cornfield and a phesant flushed in my face and someone shot it.
Id guess less than 25yds but more than 15yds away
That lump is a single birdshot. I had a few others in my jacket. But the only one that hit skin stopped at my skull. 

Buckshot for me.


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## JJ Grandits

Birdshot loses energy very quickly. If you were shot at 10 ft. you would not be posting now. There is plenty of info on youtube about shotgun loads. Check them out. As mentioned before Gunblast.com has one on shot loads for home defense that is very good. Of course we are talking about shooting which is right up there with politics and religion and hunting dogs.


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## Limon

If I shot anyone at 15-25 yards, I'd be in prison. What shot does at that distance doesn't have any bearing on a home defense situation.


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## Chuck R.

Limon said:


> If I shot anyone at 15-25 yards, I'd be in prison. What shot does at that distance doesn't have any bearing on a home defense situation.


Not necessarilyâ¦..To play âWhat ifâsâ:

What IF you must shoot at the longest distance in your house?

What IF you must shoot through a barrier, such as a wall, kitchen cabinet, door etc? The ability to penetrate isnât necessarily a âBad thingâ depending on the circumstances. 

What IF, you must take the fight outside, and your shotgun loaded with birdshot is what you have at hand? Are you going to change loads during the fight? Have you trained for it?

IF your opponent is armed with a firearm, the standard 21â âruleâ may well go out the window, if you have no chance for retreat, or are protecting another individual. *The odds are whatever scenario youâve planned for and rehearsed will not happen as planned.* As we used to say; âthe enemy gets a voteâ or âno plan survives first contactâ.

Better yet, in the famous words of Mike Tyson: âEveryone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth.â


Which is why we plan/prepare for the worst case scenario, which IMHO precludes using some pheasant or quail load against a human being that may or may not be intent on doing harm, hopped up on something, and may or may not present us a decent target at 10' or our chosen birdshot effective distance.

As for lethality, the one study I could findon shotgun wound ballistics from the Western Journal of Medicine. Of special note is page 155 which deals with mortality rates with birdshot based on distance: 

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1238294&pageindex=3#page

The most lethal is what they call a Type III wounds (3 to 7 yards) of which are 15-20% lethal. Of all 3 types of wounds 80-95% of the deaths that occurred were Type III and hemorrhaging was the primary cause of death. (Hemorrhaging is âbleeding outâ). This means that they were not typically incapacitated by hitting the brain, brain stem or CNS above the waist. Depending on the individualâs state of mind, and physical capabilities, they could still pull a trigger. For instance, Medal of Honor award citations are full of detailed actions taken by service members after sustaining to pretty horrific wounds.

In this study itâs important to note that the average survival period for those patients that did die (15-20%) was 2.3 hours. So the question remains as to what they can or cannot accomplish while bleeding out. 

Since the article was written back in 1978, it can be that survival rates have gone up some due to improved trauma treatment whereas shotgun ammunition as far as birdshot is concerned is pretty much the same.

Chuck


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## Bearfootfarm

> Originally Posted by *Limon*
> _If I shot anyone at *15*-25 *yards*, I'd be in prison. What shot does at *that distance* doesn't have any bearing on a *home defense situation*._


If I stand at my front door and look down the hall into the kitchen, it's at least that far


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## psegnatelli

JJ Grandits said:


> Birdshot loses energy very quickly. If you were shot at 10 ft. you would not be posting now. There is plenty of info on youtube about shotgun loads. Check them out. As mentioned before Gunblast.com has one on shot loads for home defense that is very good. Of course we are talking about shooting which is right up there with politics and religion and hunting dogs.


If I was hit with buck at that distance I wouldn't be here. I have a friend who was shot with a red ryder BB who is not here. There are no constants and odds vary. But if you wanna run birdshot for H go for. I have nothing vested in you or your life. My opinion was asked and I gave it. 

As far as distance. Who knows what evil will bring. Could be a rapist hiding behind some ready to pounce your daughter with you 100+ yds away. Could be 2ft.

All I know is the day I roll out with a longgun is a day already off to a rough start. I want every extra chip stacked in my corner.


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## Limon

Bearfootfarm said:


> If I stand at my front door and look down the hall into the kitchen, it's at least that far


This is a small house, and with the layout, there are no shots that long. And, in Maryland, I'd likely face criminal charges if I did shoot someone inside my house at that distance. The legal requirement is a realistic fear for your life. The DAs here are under the impression that a bad guy is incapable of hurting you unless they are within 15 feet of you. Same thing with taking a fight outside. Basically, you're asking for a lot of legal trouble if you do in Maryland. And I would never try shooting through a wall for any reason. I don't have the level of skill to make sure I hit what I couldn't see, and I'm not comfortable shooting blindly. Too many things can go wrong, not to mention destroying the house in the process. 

I do have a 38 special that I would carry as a backup in case anything were to go wrong. As it is now, I have buckshot loaded in the gun because I know what it will do in my gun. Until I can get somewhere where I can see how birdshot will perform in my gun, I'm not going to use it for home defense. After I see what different shots will do, I may or may not consider changing what I use.


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## Limon

psegnatelli said:


> My opinion was asked and I gave it.


Except the advice ignores the realities of my situation, as have been explained. If I lived on a farm in a state with more reasonable self-defense laws, your advice would be excellent. I don't, though. I have to work with what I have, which includes a small house with no long shots and very restrictive state laws.


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## Chuck R.

Limon said:


> And I would never try shooting through a wall for any reason. I don't have the level of skill to make sure I hit what I couldn't see, and I'm not comfortable shooting blindly. Too many things can go wrong, not to mention destroying the house in the process.


It doesnât take a rocket scientist to make use of available âcoverâ, anybody, and I mean anybody will seek it out, once the first shot is fired in some form or another. That doesnât necessarily mean completely behind a wall, partially hidden in a doorway will suffice, as will being partially behind a counter etc. While your birdshot load may or may not penetrate, a buck shot load should.

Itâs not shooting blindly, itâs called âturning cover into concealmentâ (old military joke), meaning your opponent chose to hide behind something that can be shot through. Like the old movies where the cops and bad guys hid behind trash cans during the shootout scene.

Seriously, IF or when the time comes to employ any sort of lethal force, damage to your house shouldnât even remotely be a concern. All that âstuffâ can be repaired later, itâs the least of your worries. 

Chuck


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## psegnatelli

I don't cater responses to give warm hugs or anything of that nature. Fighting for your life or a loved ones life is something I don't take lightly. I use the best tool I can get with what I have.
If all I had was birdshot so be it but I dont. 
It may make "nasty" wounds but its not a fight stopper

Learn to run your gun. Take a class. Learn how to fight. This ain't golf. Could be the last thing you do.


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## psegnatelli

Also

If I have to go to court for my actions I consider it a win. Losers don't get the right to due process


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## Bearfootfarm

> The legal requirement is a realistic fear for your life


That's the same for every state except Texas, where you can defend property also.

If you LIMIT your load to something only good at 10 yards or so, then the bad guy will be better off than you.

*If I have to shoot*, I'll be more worried about who I'm shooting at than what any DA might say about it.
It will be legal or not, no matter what the *distance* happens to be


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## Pops2

Bearfootfarm said:


> If I stand at my front door and look down the hall into the kitchen, it's at least that far


Are you sure? I have over 2600 sq ft and the longest shot I have is 10 yards and that is with a door open & doing some yoga twisting. That's like a shot from ground level to the roof of a three story building (5 or 6 story if its 25 yards). Even the McMansions over on the golf course don't have a 25 yd shot in them.


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## whiterock

I got a neighbor with a 99 foot hallway. Longest indoor shot i would have is 30 ft, maybe 40 if I shot thru several doorways and stood back to wall.


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## Bearfootfarm

> Are you sure? I have over 2600 sq ft and the longest shot I have is 10 yards


Yes. I'm sure 
My house is almost 4000 Sq Ft, and 15 yds is only 45 ft.
I can stand at the front door and see *almost* all the way to the back door, which in this picture is equal to from the front corner, to the rear corner beside the red chimney


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## JJ Grandits

Nice house.


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## retiredpara

FWIW, I am a retired infantryman. I do not trust my life to birdshot. I do use #4 in the 12 guage, #3 in the 20 guage. Whatever you use, pattern your shotgun. No shotgun will pattern exactly alike. Know your gun, and your load. make sure you actually aim. I recommend a good quality red dot sight, or large aperture rear sight, such as a ghost ring, along with a visible front sight. Learn point shooting/front sight shooting. It is not hard to miss a close target with a shotgun, especially at night, when you are scared, your target is running, and you are not trained. Remember that an average person can close a distance of 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Know how to reduce stoppages and get your gun back in the fight. Keep it well cleaned and lubricated for your environment. Know where the safety is. Regardless of load, if you cannot operate your gun in the dark under stress, you will likely not survive the fight. Contrary to what firearms expert and legal advisor Joe Biden says, criminals are not likely to run away just because you have a shotgun...


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## littlejoe

Interesting thoughts on this thread! I for one would much rather have buckshot than birdshot, but I still believe I would pick up a 12 loaded with field loads than a 9mm at room distances. There is a 20 loaded with #3 bs beside the bed, a 9 mm at the head of the bed, and a 12 with field loads on the other side..as well as rifles.

Every gun is gonna pattern a little differently, but I shot a coyote that was eating cottonseed meal in a grain room at 15' with a twelve field load, quartering towards me. It was a berreta o/u and It seems the top barrel was IC, but I'm not sure? THe load hit him in the front shoulder and exited just behind his rib cage. Exit was close to fist sized. Buckshot wouldn't have killed him any deader...and still, I wished I would have had a heavier load.

The good part of field loads, is people can shoot them, get familiar with their firearm, have fun doing it, without spending a lot of money, while still having a formidable defense round for in house defense.

For sure, I believe buckshot would be better, but I wouldn't hesitate to pick a 12 with field loads if my choice was that or a pistol.


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