# Designer Dogs, Why?



## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

*These dogs are being bred like crazy now. Very expensive with a short life span. Approximately 8 years. The hybrid that crosses the St. Bernard with the Standard Poodle!*

The Saint Berdoodle may be a first generation or a second generation dog, like many hybrid breeds. A first generation Saint Berdoodle is the result of breeding a purebred Saint Bernard and Poodle. A second generation Saint Berdoodle is produced by breeding two Saint Berdoodles. Due to the fact that the Saint Berdoodle is a mixed breed and is not a purebred, it is not usually able to be registered with purebred registries. There are some hybrid registries that will now register  hybrids.

*Size 
24-30 inches*

*Weight*
*110-200 pounds*
*Breeders are selling pups for around $1000.*

*They are cute but are mixed breed. I wonder if this is the reason for the short life span. Maybe because they can be so large too.
*
*Saint Berdoodle - Image Results*


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## Skandi (Oct 21, 2014)

Well since according to wikki standard poodles live on average 11 years and one study of st bernards showed 7 and another 9.. I would say that 8 isn't much of a change. In general bigger the dog, shorter the life.

But as to "designer" dogs all dog breeds are designer, only a true backyard mutt isn't.

Personaly I really disagree with pedigree dogs, and the whole.. only breed pedigrees thing to me smacks of breeders trying to make more money. I have a mutt, a collie/lab mix, she could be considered a designer as they're very much in fashion in the UK which is where she comes from. But the reason I have her is she was close by and her SECOND owners wanted rid of her, at 10 weeks!

Who knows if the mix becomes popular it could become a breed in it's own right, after all.. all that really means is another piece of paper.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't disagree that all dogs are "designer" to some degree - they certainly have been "designed" by human intervention. But the new 'fad' of "designer dogs" is usually not the same as breeding -- because very few of the "breeders" out there are trying to create something new for a reason. They are not taking two dogs or two breeds and specifically trying to create a new breed with certain characteristics from each breed (e.g. trying to take "birdiness" of a pointing breed but in a larger size by including something bigger....or the working drive of a Border Collie with the size of a Corgi...)

Some breeders are doing this (e.g. trying to create purpose bred agility dogs, for instance) but a Saint BerDoodle? That's a "hey, look how adorable a St. Bernard is with a poodle coat!" Maybe there is another reason...but to be honest, I doubt it. The main purpose is to attract pet owners who are drawn to cuteness and "new" interesting breeds --- Cockapoo, Puggle, etc.

If someone really wanted to create a "working" St. BerDoodle (for some certain characteristics, not sure what exactly they would want from that breeding) they would desex all that don't possess the desired character combinations and carefully select breeding specimens for generations until it met the *standard* they had in mind (or, better yet, had written down)  I'll bet $100 that most of these breeders aren't selecting for anything - they are just breeding them and hoping for a cute puppy.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I don't understand the 'designer dog' thing either, but then I'm a 'purebred believer' and while it's true purebreds are designed as well, they have been bred to establish certain characteristics in that breed, temperament and aptitude for certain things, not just looks.

If you want a loving companion, a 'mutt' can certainly be as loving and companionable as any purebred. But if you are looking for certain characteristics in your dog, it is pretty much a given that your chances of getting *that* characteristic in a purebred dog that has been bred for that trait than in a mixed breed dog with no known background.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I guess anybody could breed a St Bernard to a Standard Poodle and sell the pups for a large amount of money. My question is why unless it is greed?
There are so many cute puppies in rescue, I just don't see the point.

The golden dog in my avatar came from the Humane Society. He was approximately 8 wks old, was dropped over the fence there tied together with 2 other litter mates with ropes around their necks. My son and family adopted him. He is one of the sweetest and best natured dogs I ever knew in my life.
Many shelters are getting pure bred litters and their mothers now for adoption.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

gapeach said:


> I guess anybody could breed a St Bernard to a Standard Poodle and sell the pups for a large amount of money. My question is why unless it is greed?
> There are so many cute puppies in rescue, I just don't see the point.
> 
> The golden dog in my avatar came from the Humane Society. He was approximately 8 wks old, was dropped over the fence there tied together with 2 other litter mates with ropes around their necks. My son and family adopted him. He is one of the sweetest and best natured dogs I ever knew in my life.
> Many shelters are getting pure bred litters and their mothers now for adoption.



We've had a similar discussion on the horse forum about breeding as well. I prefer my dogs to be purebred for various reasons and you prefer something else but I don't feel that eliminating good quality breeders will resolve the population problem. 

I paid quite a bit for my dog and I don't consider the breeder to be motivated by greed. She loves her dogs, puts a great deal of time and care into each litter, breeds carefully to ensure some negative genetic traits are not involved, sells with a health guarantee and will buy back any dog she bred. Her kennel and whelping area are spotless, dogs well trained, socialized and mannered. Pups are clean, active, socialized and healthy. 

If I go pick one up at the pound, can I be sure this criteria has been met and if the dog has underlying health problems, I'm now left with an awful expensive dog and in some ways, I feel that shopping at the pound perpetuates bad breeders and bad owners because if things don't work, they just drop their dog at the nearest shelter.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

gapeach said:


> I guess anybody could breed a St Bernard to a Standard Poodle and sell the pups for a large amount of money. My question is why unless it is greed?
> There are so many cute puppies in rescue, I just don't see the point.


Well, yes, I'd say that's the answer. Although some people might not see it as *greed* as much as a way of making ends meet, making "easy" money, or just supplementing their income. It's the people that actually PAY $1000+ for a mutt that are actually perpetuating this stupid practice. 

I have no problem paying $1000+ for a well-bred dog from health tested parents and proven breeding lines, but no way would I pay that for a "cute mutt".


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

Any time you cross two non-pure breeds, I suppose you've got a designer dog. The issue for me is what the breeder is trying to accomplish. If you are breeding for "cuteness" without much concern for temperament, that's a problem in my book. However, cross-breeding for performance from different working lines can yield wonderful dogs.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I don't think I made myself clear. We have been purebred dog owners for many years. People who breed dogs that are purebred are usually trying to make the breed better and that is why they charge so much for their dogs. I am not addressing that at all.
Now, my husband and I are too old to start off with a puppy so we got a rescue when our last purebred GSD died. There are many dogs in rescue who are purebred and if you just want a cute dog, it is very easy to find one in rescue
The point I was making was that these dogs seem to be bred because they look cute, and they are basically a mixed breed dog. Why are these people breeding these mixed breed dogs if not just to make a lot of money? They obviously are not trying to make either breed better by creating a dog who is not going to have a long life span.
I don't find any fault with going to a reputable breeder when you buy your purebred pups. We did the same thing.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

gapeach said:


> I don't think I made myself clear. We have been purebred dog owners for many years. People who breed dogs that are purebred are usually trying to make the breed better and that is why they charge so much for their dogs. I am not addressing that at all.
> Now, my husband and I are too old to start off with a puppy so we got a rescue when our last purebred GSD died. There are many dogs in rescue who are purebred and if you just want a cute dog, it is very easy to find one in rescue
> The point I was making was that these dogs seem to be bred because they look cute, and they are basically a mixed breed dog. Why are these people breeding these mixed breed dogs if not just to make a lot of money? They obviously are not trying to make either breed better by creating a dog who is not going to have a long life span.
> I don't find any fault with going to a reputable breeder when you buy your purebred pups. We did the same thing.



Many breeds, including the two cited have short lifespans and I'm not certain they are or aren't bettering their breed because I see a lot of breeds that haven't evolved well. Hip dysphasia, prone to bloat, inverted eyelids, respiratory problems,overbites, underbites, shoulder and elbow degeneration and poor vision are just a few accepted traits in certain breeds.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

People want what they want and often their judgement isn't good. (That's the PC way of saying often times, people are stupid!).

Why do people who live in city-center apartments get dogs that need a lot of exercise/work? Why do people who live in the country get a chihuahua that a hawk or owl could carry off? Why do people get dogs that are human aggressive when they live in a neighborhood full of children? 

So I give up on trying to figure out why people do the stupid things they do when it comes to pets. Sometimes people are motivated by money but most of the time it's just poor judgement.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

citxmech said:


> Any time you cross two non-pure breeds, I suppose you've got a designer dog. The issue for me is what the breeder is trying to accomplish. If you are breeding for "cuteness" without much concern for temperament, that's a problem in my book. However, cross-breeding for performance from different working lines can yield wonderful dogs.


I agree. Although it's also possible to breed for performance without cross-breeding, but simply selecting for certain traits within a breed.

I am certain that cross-breeding for specific performance traits *can* result in a new "breed" that has the best of both worlds - but I think the results are probably pretty unpredictable until selection has happened for quite a number of generations. In a first or second generation cross-breeding of Border Collie x Cavalier....you *might* get the brains of a Border Collie and the temperament and size of a Cavalier....or you might get a really big Cavalier with no working ability. Or you might get neither. 

That's my biggest complaint about "designer dogs" - even "purposeful cross-bred" working dogs (or for agility/flyball). If it were that easy to just simply put the two dogs into a DNA "blender" and get only the best of each, there would be no purebred dogs with "faults". They would all be perfect.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

*All of the images of the* Saint Berdoodle are very cute. but you can see that they some have more characteristics of one of the breed like this one looks more like the St Bernard.








Oh well, to each his own. If someone has a lot of money to spend, then it is their own choice.
A possible 200 lb dog? Yikes!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

gapeach said:


> *All of the images of the* Saint Berdoodle are very cute. but you can see that they some have more characteristics of one of the breed like this one looks more like the St Bernard.
> View attachment 43131
> 
> 
> ...



I sure don't need or want a 200 lb dog but the St Bernard's are one of a few breeds that are that big. 

Their size and a couple other undesirable traits are likely why they have fallen out of favour in recent years. 

I think the first designer dogs of our generation were the Bichon Shih Tzu cross, which was supposed to be non shedding and a good option for folks with allergies. Initially, the dogs often looked more like one breed or the other but now that they've been around for 20 years, they seem to have consistent traits and appearance.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

gapeach said:


> *
> Oh well, to each his own. If someone has a lot of money to spend, then it is their own choice.
> *


*

The world if full of choices. Getting all upset over a dog that another person may love is kind of silly. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. 
My favorite cross is a Chinese Crested with Chihuahua. I have seen them crossed with toy poodles too which is kind of cute and also with dachshunds. And if people choose to love the cross as much as or MORE than the purebred than it is their business. It's one of those cases of, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".*


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I bought a Cockapoo once about 45 yrs ago. She was really cute, looked more like a Cocker than a Poodle and was very bad to snap and was food aggressive. She bit my 2 yr old in the face and I ended up rehoming her to a family with no small children. 
After that we did not have any more dogs that were not purebred til the mixed dog that we have now, Sammie.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

mekasmom said:


> The world if full of choices. Getting all upset over a dog that another person may love is kind of silly. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
> My favorite cross is a Chinese Crested with Chihuahua. I have seen them crossed with toy poodles too which is kind of cute and also with dachshunds. And if people choose to love the cross as much as or MORE than the purebred than it is their business. It's one of those cases of, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".



Aw, come on. I just said that to each his own.
No getting upset.:nanner:


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

mekasmom said:


> The world if full of choices. Getting all upset over a dog that another person may love is kind of silly. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
> My favorite cross is a Chinese Crested with Chihuahua. I have seen them crossed with toy poodles too which is kind of cute and also with dachshunds. And if people choose to love the cross as much as or MORE than the purebred than it is their business. It's one of those cases of, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".


 Ehh...I disagree. The breeder isn't cranking out bicycles or scooters, but living creatures with a lifespan of 8-18 years. In my opinion, that requires more commitment then just hoping for a cute puppy and the highest bidder. 

I'm sure there are probably *some* cross-breed breeders out there that do a good job placing puppies, just like there are some bad purebred breeders out there. But, randomly mixing breeds to create a "cute cross" is pretty indefensible, in my opinion, given the astounding number of unwanted, abandoned, and accidentally produced dogs already out there in this country.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I think one reason for designer dogs is the fact a breeder can sell a puppy without breeding rights. Since they can breed and register puppies from these dogs, crossing them is more profitable and you don't need anyone's permission.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Molly Mckee said:


> I think one reason for designer dogs is the fact a breeder can sell a puppy without breeding rights. Since they can breed and register puppies from these dogs, crossing them is more profitable and you don't need anyone's permission.


Where can you register cross-bred dogs? I guess I'm not understanding your post - you can breed anything you want as long as you *don't* want to register it. It's only when you want to register that you need to breed only within a breed (at least as far as the registries I'm familiar with).

But that's a good question -- WHY is it more profitable? Why are people so willing to buy expensive cross breeds anyway? Why would someone pay MORE for a crossbred dog than a (poorly bred) pure bred? Some of these crossbred dogs go for $1500+. That's ridiculous!


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

If you sell a puppy with limited registration, the new owner can't register any puppies with AKC. I'm not sure what the rules are with some of the minor registries. However, there is nothing to stop someone from breeding designer puppies, crossing a Standard Poodle with a St Bernard or Cocker Spaniel and small Poodle. Crossbred designer puppies ususally bring in more money than unregistered purebreds.


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

offthegrid said:


> I agree. Although it's also possible to breed for performance without cross-breeding, but simply selecting for certain traits within a breed.
> 
> I am certain that cross-breeding for specific performance traits *can* result in a new "breed" that has the best of both worlds - but I think the results are probably pretty unpredictable until selection has happened for quite a number of generations. In a first or second generation cross-breeding of Border Collie x Cavalier....you *might* get the brains of a Border Collie and the temperament and size of a Cavalier....or you might get a really big Cavalier with no working ability. Or you might get neither.
> 
> That's my biggest complaint about "designer dogs" - even "purposeful cross-bred" working dogs (or for agility/flyball). If it were that easy to just simply put the two dogs into a DNA "blender" and get only the best of each, there would be no purebred dogs with "faults". They would all be perfect.


While I agree with the above - when out-crossing different breeds of purebred dogs, most of which have genetic bottleneck in their recent past, you do get the added benefit of "hybrid vigor." 

As long as you're starting with good dogs of known temperament, I'm not convinced that the resulting pups would be much more of a crapshoot temperamentally than crossing two purebreeds, especially given the absolute demolition of the actual working capability of many "working" breeds that are part of the show circuit. 

This article sums this position up nicely I think: http://www.blascofamily.com/Advantages-of-Hybrid-Breeding.htm

Edit: PS This link to an Australian Boardog classified is a another nice look at what performance breeding instead of line breeding can get you: http://www.boardogs.com/Boardogs_Pig_Dog_Pups_For_Sale.htm This guy, in particular, has some really good-looking dogs: http://www.boardogs.com/O'Halloran_Hounds.htm


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Skandi said:


> Well since according to wikki standard poodles live on average 11 years and one study of st bernards showed 7 and another 9.. I would say that 8 isn't much of a change. In general bigger the dog, shorter the life.


Poodles have an exceptionally long life compared to other breeds in general. Same with chihuahuas. The cross life span is not unreasonable at all.
Dogs are Dogs. Crossing them is not a sin, and it isn't even morally wrong. Now, I do believe being foolish enough to pay huge amounts for the cross is wrong. But everyone is free to do what they want to with their own money. 

Spending hours worrying about people choosing to cross or own a cross breed dog is not necessary. There are so many other things in life to do.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

That is not even a hybrid. A hybrid is a breeding cross between two distinct genetic pools such a horse x donkey equals mule. There are also wolf x domestic dog hybrids, coyote x domestic dog hybrids. A domestic dog x domestic dog is not a hybrid. That is a designer mutt that is likely not even healthy if bread from kennel club inbred stocks or lines. There is not enough genetic variety in domestic dogs to create hybrids this way unless it is breeding g to original land race animals like a new guinea singing dog, or dingo.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

Such dog breeding is not wrongful, and may even help alleviate obvious defects in health of the inbred and limited genetics of purebred dog lines, but it is not hybridization. This is basic biology not opinion.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

gapeach said:


> The point I was making was that these dogs seem to be bred because they look cute, and they are basically a mixed breed dog. Why are these people breeding these mixed breed dogs if not just to make a lot of money? They obviously are not trying to make either breed better by creating a dog who is not going to have a long life span.


I just bought 2 yorkiepoos because my chihuahuas are so old now. I am so glad that I had the opportunity to get them. It was my choice to spend my money on what I wanted to buy. That is the point. Everyone can spend their own money on what they want to spend their money on. Dogs are dogs. New, I am smart enough not to waste 800 plus on a dog. But if I did spend that much on a dog, mix or purebred, it would be my business to spend my money on what I wanted to spend my money on.

And the dogs will live just fine as crosses with normal lifespans of the comparable breeds. A poodle cross will usually live longer than a wolf hound cross. My chihuahua/chinese crested cross will probably not live as long as my purebred chihuahuas. But she will live to be 12-15 or so. It is just the way things are. It doesn't make her worth less in my heart. These are dogs. God never gace any commandment against them crossing.


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## ihuntgsps (Mar 10, 2008)

Who on earth are you to care what someone else may or may not do?

If someone chooses to mate unregistered dogs it is their right. 

Your comment "People who breed dogs that are purebred are usually trying to make the breed better and that is why they charge so much for their dogs" is ridiculous.

The self righteous attitudes among many breeders of registered dogs is absurd. Your pure bred dog is often times not any healthier, more stable personality wise, better looking, or more valuable then a mutt I can find and train off the street.

Simple reality is they can do what they want and if people are willing to part with big dollars for a dog you think is not valuable they will keep doing it.

The idea purebred breeders breed to improve their breed is bull. The majority breed because they enjoy having the dogs around and it helps them pay for care/shows/etc. 

Pure bred breeders are absolutely no better than any other breeder out there. The breeders we all need to be concerned about are puppy mills (which happen more often with purebred dogs than designer mutts). 

Anyone that takes care of their animals is fine in my book.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

ihuntgsps said:


> Who on earth are you to care what someone else may or may not do?
> 
> If someone chooses to mate unregistered dogs it is their right.
> 
> ...



While I agree with most of your point, I think your delivery is a bit harsh. 

I do disagree with you to some extent on those that breed registered dogs. Not all do it to pay show or competition costs and in reality it usually is the reverse. They show or compete to promote their bloodline and not too many are getting rich at it. 

I'm of the opinion that there's as many breeds or crosses out there and there are preferences. I love my Scotties and will have another but right now, I have a retired cowdog in the course and her genetics are quite pure and I love her personality and brilliant mind. The cowdog before was specifically bred with working ranches in mind but a combination of three breeds (my daughter calls them Azlues). 

I do agree that anyone who cares for their animals is my kinda people.


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

Jreed said:


> That is not even a hybrid. A hybrid is a breeding cross between two distinct genetic pools such a horse x donkey equals mule. There are also wolf x domestic dog hybrids, coyote x domestic dog hybrids. A domestic dog x domestic dog is not a hybrid. That is a designer mutt that is likely not even healthy if bread from kennel club inbred stocks or lines. There is not enough genetic variety in domestic dogs to create hybrids this way unless it is breeding g to original land race animals like a new guinea singing dog, or dingo.


I don't think that you are correct.
See e.g., Wikipedia's entries for "Heterosis" and "Inbreeding Depression":

"Heterosis, *hybrid vigor*, or outbreeding enhancement, is the improved or increased function of any biological quality in a hybrid offspring. The adjective derived from heterosis is heterotic.
An offspring exhibits heterosis if its traits are enhanced as a result of mixing the genetic contributions of its parents. . . The physiological vigor of an organism as manifested in its rapidity of growth, its height and general robustness, is positively correlated with the degree of dissimilarity in the gametes by whose union the organism was formed â¦ The more numerous the differences between the uniting gametes â at least within certain limits â the greater on the whole is the amount of stimulation. . . "

This is in opposition to "inbreeding depression":

"Inbreeding depression is the reduced biological fitness in a given population as a result of inbreeding - ie., breeding of related individuals. Population biological fitness refers to its ability to survive and reproduce itself. Inbreeding depression is often the result of a population bottleneck. In general, the higher the genetic variation or gene pool within a breeding population, the less likely it is to suffer from inbreeding depression."


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

ihuntgsps said:


> Who on earth are you to care what someone else may or may not do?


Oh come on. We all care what other people do in the world. Obviously, some issues are more important than others (world hunger versus designer dogs) but if people didn't care about what others may or may do...it would be a sad world to live in.



ihuntgsps said:


> Your comment "People who breed dogs that are purebred are usually trying to make the breed better and that is why they charge so much for their dogs" is ridiculous.
> 
> The self righteous attitudes among many breeders of registered dogs is absurd. Your pure bred dog is often times not any healthier, more stable personality wise, better looking, or more valuable then a mutt I can find and train off the street.


I'm not sure who you are referring to - but there are a lot of terrible purebred breeders out there too (puppy mills, for example, are just one example). Lots of bad breeders, breeding for the wrong reasons -- some for the ego boost, others for the money. I'm sure there are some good breeders of cross-bred dogs, that do it right.

That said, this *fad* of "designer dogs" is just that - a fad, that rewards crap breeders with big bucks so that people can say "I have a cock-a-poo". Many of the owners, and probably the breeders, have no idea what qualities either of the original breeds have that would make them desirable, and therefore have no idea whether the cutesy mix pups even exhibits any of these desirable traits. The sire/dam are likely not being selected by many breeders for being exemplary specimens, and therefore worthy of reproducing.

And most likely, these puppies are being produced from parents with no health testing to rule out the most common congenital problems for their breeds -- so definitely not getting all the benefits of "hybrid vigor"...especially since in nature, bad specimens of a species tend not to breed. A good breeder will remove the bad specimens (defective, unhealthy, bad tempered) from the breeding population -- but in the "designer dog" craze....I'm not sure that's happening. That's my issue.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

Oh boy, hot topic for sure.

The general public is easily swayed by fake science. They have bought into the myth that you can take two poorly bred dogs with all all sorts of health problems that are of different breeds, breed them together, and then - thru the magic of hybrid - the resulting puppies will all be healthy and have only the best attributes of the parents.

In truth, any time you cross two breeds of dogs, it's a total crapshoot as to which characteristics any of the puppies will get. Non-shedding (AKA "hypoallergenic) coats are actually a recessive trait, so breeding a Poodle to a Lab cannot in it's first generation produce a hypoallergenic dog. Additionally, puppy coats are different than adult coats in most breeds, so you can't tell until that puppy is closer to a year of age what kind of coat it will have.

There are very, very few people who are breeding these designer dogs correctly. Most people are buying the cheapest Poodle they can find, which likely has a number of genetic health conditions, and then buying the cheapest Lab they can find, which also is likely riddled with genetic issues, breeding them together (ignoring the fact that Poodles and Labs both share a large number of genetic issues), and convincing the public that the resulting puppies will be 100% healthy.

My former boss, who was a very well educated and smart man overall, came to me when his designer dog was a year of age. At her vet appointment, the vet told them that she had cataracts in both her eyes and would be blind within months. He was confused because the breeder he purchased the dog from had assured him that the dog would NEVER GET SICK. I sat him down and tried to explain things to him, but he kept going back to "But his breeder said!" He paid $2,000 + shipping to get this mutt.

I sell purebred dogs that come from fully health tested parents, my puppies come with a genetic health guarantee, and people tell me that my prices are insane.... then they turn around and pay $3,000 for a poorly bred mutt with no health guarantee (because the breeder swore none was needed, because he'll never get sick!).

It makes no sense to me, except to say that the general public are told that purchasing any purebred dog is bad, and buying a mutts is good. 

I tell everyone who I think will listen that if you want a mutt, go to your local shelter and adopt one. If you want a purebred, buy one from a responsible breeder who health tests their breeding stock, and don't bargain shop. It's one thing if your $100 shelter mutt needs an expensive knee surgery, and another thing altogether if your $3,000 YorkieShiPoo needs it IMO.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

The dog and horse markets seem to have a lot in common right now. 

It's trendy to adopt or rescue and denounce anyone who dares breed.

There will always be ethical and unethical breeders but it seems to me that the Internet makes research pretty simple. 

In my opinion, a lot less pets would be dropped off at shelters if buyers did their homework and sellers were a little slower to close a sale. 

Most of the breeders I know have long waiting lists for their pups because people prefer to wait for quality but they aren't upset when someone decides to shop elsewhere because the breeders feel that the, 'I want a puppy now' people are following trends and not interested in breed integrity.

There are some folks in town that sell Labradoodles and it looks to me like interest is waning. A year ago, they were selling pups for about $3,000.00 but by late fall, pups were selling for $1,000.00 and at Christmas they were trying to sell 3 or 4 unclaimed pups for $200.00. 

Some designer breeds will likely be around for quite a while and others will likely not but I doubt that those breeding are interested in our opinions.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

http://www.examiner.com/article/study-shows-purebred-dogs-not-more-sickly-than-mixed-breeds


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

basketti said:


> http://www.examiner.com/article/study-shows-purebred-dogs-not-more-sickly-than-mixed-breeds


From the linked summary:

"The study, titled, Prevalence of inherited disorders among mixed-breed and purebred dogs: 27,254 cases (1995&#8211;2010), Studied prevalence of 24 genetic disorders in the population.

Ten disorders were found to be more common in purebred dogs, these disorders include dilated cardiomyopathy, elbow dysplasia cataracts and hypothyroidism. For thirteen disorders, including hip dysplasia, Cushing's disease, cancers, and luxating patellas, purebred dogs had no higher incidence than did mixed breed dogs. Mixed breed dogs had a higher prevalence of cranial cruciate ligament (CCL) tears than did purebred dogs."

Based upon that data, the researchers concluded that:

". . . for most heritable diseases mixed breeds confer no greater over all health." (emphasis added)

While that conclusion is technically true, I think that it's important to note that out of the 24 genetically linked disorders studied, _only one_ was more prevalent in mixed breeds (not so sure that CCL tears have been conclusively linked to genetics btw), while 10 of the studied disorders were less likely. 

Assuming that the differences noted in the study were all statistically significant, that sounds like a substantial advantage to me. . . 

And this isn't taking into consideration the harmful physical characteristics intentionally bred into some breeds (e.g., 80% of Bulldog litters requiring Caesareans, etc.).


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

citxmech said:


> I don't think that you are correct.
> See e.g., Wikipedia's entries for "Heterosis" and "Inbreeding Depression":
> 
> "Heterosis, *hybrid vigor*, or outbreeding enhancement, is the improved or increased function of any biological quality in a hybrid offspring. The adjective derived from heterosis is heterotic.
> ...


Crossing a Tennessee walking horse to a Morgan horse does not make a hybrid, it makes a cross bred horse. You will get the characteristics of both animals of course, you can even breed a minature horse scientifically to a Clydesdale draft horse, still not a hybrid. Just a weird draft pony . Crossing a horse with a zebra would be a hybrid , as would a donkey to a horse. Cross a gaited Tennessee walker to a donkey and get a gaited riding mule. Crossing two dogs is the same, there is not enough genetic distance between breeds regardless of shape or physical character to make a hybrid, it is simply a cross breed. While this may be beneficial to help with known health issues and if often done in working animals for the personal preference of owners, it is not hybridization. All domestic dogs like domestic horses are the same family of animals. You must breed animals of different families to achieve hybrids and hybrid vigor. Again basic biology


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Molly Mckee said:


> If you sell a puppy with limited registration, the new owner can't register any puppies with AKC. I'm not sure what the rules are with some of the minor registries. However, there is nothing to stop someone from breeding designer puppies, crossing a Standard Poodle with a St Bernard or Cocker Spaniel and small Poodle. Crossbred designer puppies ususally bring in more money than unregistered purebreds.



They can't get AKC registration, but there are other registries that will allow the registration.


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

Jreed said:


> Crossing a Tennessee walking horse to a Morgan horse does not make a hybrid, it makes a cross bred horse. You will get the characteristics of both animals of course, you can even breed a minature horse scientifically to a Clydesdale draft horse, still not a hybrid. Just a weird draft pony . Crossing a horse with a zebra would be a hybrid , as would a donkey to a horse. Cross a gaited Tennessee walker to a donkey and get a gaited riding mule. Crossing two dogs is the same, there is not enough genetic distance between breeds regardless of shape or physical character to make a hybrid, it is simply a cross breed. While this may be beneficial to help with known health issues and if often done in working animals for the personal preference of owners, it is not hybridization. All domestic dogs like domestic horses are the same family of animals. You must breed animals of different families to achieve hybrids and hybrid vigor. Again basic biology


Did you read the Wiki page? You are inappropriately fixating on the word "Hybrid." "Hybrid vigor" is a common and accepted term of art for crosses with different physical characteristics (more technically it's an increase in Heterozygousity or put another way, a reduction in the homozygousity found in most purebreds). That's about it. Basic Mendelian stuff. Put even another way, it is the opposite of inbreeding depression.

Here are some examples of how "hybrid," is used in this context, also from Wiki:

"Hybrid livestock[edit]
The concept of heterosis is also applied in the production of commercial livestock. In cattle, hybrids between Black Angus and Hereford produce a hybrid known as a "Black Baldy". In swine, "blue butts" are produced by the cross of Hampshire and Yorkshire. Other, more exotic hybrids such as "beefalo" are also used for specialty markets.

Poultry[edit]
Within poultry, sex-linked genes have been used to create hybrids in which males and females can be sorted at one day old by color. Specific genes used for this are genes for barring and wing feather growth. Crosses of this sort create what are sold as Black Sex-links, Red Sex-links, and various other crosses that are known by trade names.

Commercial broilers are produced by crossing different strains of White Rocks and White Cornish, the Cornish providing a large frame and the Rocks providing the fast rate of gain. The hybrid vigor produced allows the production of uniform birds with a marketable carcass at 6&#8211;9 weeks of age.

Likewise, hybrids between different strains of White Leghorn are used to produce laying flocks that provide the majority of white eggs for sale in the United States."

I don't know where you are getting this stuff about going back to the family level to qualify as having hybrid vigor.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

citxmech said:


> Did you read the Wiki page? You are inappropriately fixating on the word "Hybrid." "Hybrid vigor" is a common and accepted term of art for crosses with different physical characteristics (more technically it's an increase in Heterozygousity or put another way, a reduction in the homozygousity found in most purebreds). That's about it. Basic Mendelian stuff. Put even another way, it is the opposite of inbreeding depression.


But, even if used as a term of art, it really doesn't apply very well in dogs because some breeders are good and some aren't. 

Good breeders of purebred dogs select for a variety of exemplary characteristics AND health test parents before breeding AND carefully breed to incorporate different outcrosses and breeding lines. Bad purebred breeders just take the two they have and make puppies and sell them on Craigslist. 

Who knows what the "Designer Dog" market breeders do? Since they don't breed to a physical standard (because one doesn't exist for 99% of these cross-bred dogs) they have no way of specifically eliminating offspring that have conformational issues. My guess is they don't conduct health screening for most of these breedings, but it's possible some do. Since a cross-bred dog doesn't necessarily have a *correct* temperament, it's also unlikely that they are being selected for temperament. A poodle and a St. Bernard should have different temperaments. What will come out of a cross-breeding? Who knows.

Accidental breedings/mutts enjoy none of the benefits of careful selection OR natural selection. They are perfect examples of bad breeding -- the only criteria for breeding was opportunity. This doesn't happen often in wild populations of dogs...or wolves...or, well, anything, really.

So...you can condemn some purebred standards (everyone always loves to jump on the GSD and Bulldog bandwagon, but there are hundreds of other breeds out there)...but purebred dogs being bred by *good breeders* are probably the group that is most likely to be healthy because at least someone had a plan, a standard, and a health history to use as part of the selection process. As I said before....there are probably SOME good breeders of crossbred dogs that also have a plan...

The ones you find on Craigslist, etc.? I doubt it.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

Did quite a bit of research to define hybrid and what it means. There are hybrids between varieties, species, genus, and family. Hybrids are most common between plants as there needs to be an outstanding genetic difference to get any genetic stimulation for hybrid vigor. Between human beings the genetics is to similar to breed any two humans and get a hybrid regardless of color or geography. There is simply not enough genetic variance to get heterosis which is the hybrid vigor stimulation. This is also the same in domestic dogs, there is not a great enough genetic difference between dogs in order to achieve heterosis. In order to get hybrid vigor in a domestic dog, it must be bred with the gene pool of wild dogs. Wolves, coyotes, jackels, dingos, or some pariah dog breeds kept as genetic pools by indigenous peoples ( such as the new guinea singing dog ) While there are genetic benefits to outcrossing and breeding dogs, there is not true heterosis which requires strong genetic difference to occur.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

Another good bit of info I found.......

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=29634


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## citxmech (Dec 26, 2011)

Jreed said:


> Another good bit of info I found.......
> 
> http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=29634


Did you bother read the study or my comments on it? (my second post this thread).

Hybrid vigor is essentially the opposite of inbreeding depression. Anything that can be inbred, will benefit from out-crossing. End of story.
The study you cite actually supports this.

Also, your prior post has no citations or references - care to provide any?


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Hybrid vigor comes when you linebreed two different lines very closely, then cross them together. You need a level of inbreeding on each side so that when you cross them the deleterious affects of inbreeding (which you do with careful selection for the best possible traits) are erased and you get a definite hybrid. 

Hybrid plants come from two different strains that are inbred for consistency, then crossed to get the expected results and hybrid vigor. Hybrid chickens (such as the CornishX used for meat) come from two different inbred lines that are very consistent and crossed with each other. 

A breed of dogs is somewhat inbred, as you have to use related individuals to set breed type in the first place. If you want hybrid vigor though, you'd use two very careful inbred lines and cross them. You can do it in one breed or in two. The first generation (F1 hybrid) will have pretty consistent characteristics, but the next generation will be quite variable. Crossing a Lab that has an iffy background and isn't linebred or inbred with a poodle similarly bred will give you the F1 cross type, but certainly won't give you any better health than crossing any two dogs with poor breeding behind them. Crossing a well bred Lab that has had its genetics concentrated for soundness, temperament, quality and health with a similarly bred Poodle should give you pups with good quality and likely hybrid vigor.... however crossing two Labs with that sort of background that aren't closely related will do the same thing. 

Hybrid vigor is good for one generation at best though, it is what you do at the end of a breeding program for the final result, you wouldn't use the F1 to breed on, you'd go back to the parents, perhaps linebreed each one of them to use later for another hybrid. 

For example when I was breeding English Setters, I used two different lines (already set by careful breeding by other breeders) and linebred on each of them. I'd cross a ***** from Line A to a stud from that line where I'd keep the strengths of the line. Then I'd cross that same ***** to a stud from line B that I felt complemented her. Same with line B. Sometimes I'd try a stud from another line, if I thought I'd get offspring with characteristics I wanted to breed into my line. I would also breed progeny back to one side or the other to keep the lines going and to build my own line. We did a lot of genetic calculations to keep inbreeding low and concentrate the genetics of particular individuals that we felt were of unusually high quality. I wasn't so much trying for hybrid vigor as to keep the inbreeding co-efficient low to start with (to avoid inbreeding problems, such as a lack of vigor), while still keeping the relationship to certain dogs fairly high (so we'd have a consistent type and quality and health). It was a fun challenge. I wasn't the greatest breeder out there, but certainly had some successes that I was proud of. I worked with my mother and some friends, as it does take a fair number of dogs to actually breed a "bloodline", more than any of us would really want to keep by ourselves. 

The old kennels that developed a lot of the breeds we have today often belonged to wealthy fanciers that had many dogs and culled anything that wasn't up to their standards (either to put them down or find them homes). Today people might have a fit, but they weren't puppy mills, they took good care of their dogs and bred to create a dog for a certain purpose. To breed quality dogs is hard, its a lot of work, its expensive and there is plenty of heartache involved. You have to make decisions against your feelings and for the breed. I respect those that have the dedication to do so.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

The thing about an idea that there should be no "purebred" dogs is that, eventually you've got a whole world of mutts that breed back to something that would, I expect, tend toward a uniformity of its own. This means, in the end, we lose wonderful dogs like Golden Retrievers, Collies, Poodles, Great Pyrenees, etc. Generations of mutts later, we would have a form of "purebred" anyway...just one that could not necessarily fill any of our many needs for working and companion animals so perfectly as the breeds we would have lost.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

Thanks for the info Ms Carrol, that two inbred lines could great enough difference to breed a F1 is not something I considered ..... and thank goodness there is a ignore feature like facebook has a block. There is learning and there is winning. I am always interested in learning


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I learned that from studying cattle breeding, along with chickens.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

GrannyCarol said:


> I learned that from studying cattle breeding, along with chickens.


I also started with poultry as the number of chromosomes they carry. A great way to learn , and have raised a large number and variety of birds and still do. Plus I work around them with my ratting dogs * wink * so i need the birds to train pups


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## froggy1 (Mar 27, 2015)

I've also seen a lot of breeders very against breeding for large dogs... such as with "royal" standard poodles. However, for actual birding many times a larger dog is better that the average size the standard poodle is for the show ring. 
There are several very conscientious breeders out there working the over sized standard poos, and breeding for the working ability along with being very selective NOT about breeding from dogs with any heritable defects(hips, etc). Since the standard poo was originally a working class dog, I can only see this as a positive. The really don't need to be bred specifically as hairdresser show ring dogs. 

As for the absolute WHY with the 'doodle crosses... some people really like big affable dogs and also have allergies. A percentage of the pups will have the poodle coat that is less allergenic to many people than a standard Lab, Golden, or even St. Bernard. 
Other people just like them. 
As long as the breeders are being responsible as to having the ***** and stud tested for possible negative heritable issues, I don't see any issue with providing people with a pet.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

To be honest, I am not sure why I said "along with chickens" in my post - I don't own or breed chickens, but I'm sure I had something in mind! lol Maybe I'm getting senile. I'm pretty sure I meant to say something about studying the breeding of cattle (college classes and text books, I've never bred cattle either) and the breeding of DOGS, not chickens! What is really bizarre is that I was wondering if people would think I had cows.... and missed entirely that I said chickens instead of dogs. Late night posting... lol BTW, your chickens are gorgeous!

I do have some 40 years experience breeding dogs, for many of those I also showed and trained them.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

i wouldn't consider him a designer dog but I have a BC/Aussie cross that I like (love) better than a straight BC or Aussie. Kind of the best of both worlds.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

basketti said:


> i wouldn't consider him a designer dog but I have a BC/Aussie cross that I like (love) better than a straight BC or Aussie. Kind of the best of both worlds.


The problem with mutts is that even if you know for sure what breeds are in the mix, you never know what traits from each contributing breed are going to pop up in any litter. Mutts don't breed true, purebreds do... and even in purebreds, in any given litter there will be some puppies that are more suited to different kinds of work than their littermates are. A good breeder knows their lines and can discern the subtle differences in a litter of purebreds, but in a litter of mutts you're rolling the dice.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Our Sammie girl, a mix of mostly Boxer, Shar Pei, and AmStaff has turned white on her muzzle in the last few months . She is only 4. She was attacked by a Pit in the last year and trauma could have made her turn white from jet black, but most likely is because she is a mixed breed according to the experts. 
With mixed breeds, you never know what breed is going to be dominant.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

basketti said:


> i wouldn't consider him a designer dog but I have a BC/Aussie cross that I like (love) better than a straight BC or Aussie. Kind of the best of both worlds.


Some crosses are the best dogs ever!


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

bluemoonluck said:


> The problem with mutts is that even if you know for sure what breeds are in the mix, you never know what traits from each contributing breed are going to pop up in any litter. Mutts don't breed true, purebreds do... and even in purebreds, in any given litter there will be some puppies that are more suited to different kinds of work than their littermates are. A good breeder knows their lines and can discern the subtle differences in a litter of purebreds, but in a litter of mutts you're rolling the dice.


I do agree with you but I think in cases where you are crossing two dogs of similar breed/purpose, there is less risk. Like with BC/Aussie crosses or Great Pyr/Anatolian crosses. I'd don't breed mine, I got him as a pup. He is 8 now and is a fantastic dog.


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## CountryMom22 (Nov 27, 2014)

My thoughts on the subject... people want to be the first with something different, at least in my area. Anyone can buy a Golden Ret., but now the Jones' have a Golden Doodle! Whole new animal! So now the Smith's need one. When that breed of designer dog becomes too popular, someone comes up with another cross, hence: cockapoo, maltipoo, schnauzerdoodle, puggle etc. I'm not saying that the breeders are bad people, or that they mistreat or don't care about their dogs, but for the most part, I think this is driven by money. Those who breed to make it and those that spend it to be the first to start a trend or jump on the bandwagon. I've had purebreds, been a breeder/exhibitor and owned mixes. Not designed, just mutts. All were wonderful dogs, and terrific family members. The price tags didn't mean a thing. If you've got money to waste, it's yours, do what you want.

Me personally, I would never "buy" a mix, although I would gladly pay an adoption fee for that same mix dog. To each his own.

Also, as a groomer, I have found that many people buy these doodle what evers, thinking that they will get the qualities of one parent and the non-shedding of the poodle. News flash, this doesn't work. You end up with a long haired, double coated dog that may not shed as much, but whose coat needs just as much care if not more!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

basketti said:


> i wouldn't consider him a designer dog but I have a BC/Aussie cross that I like (love) better than a straight BC or Aussie. Kind of the best of both worlds.


My daughter had a BC/Aussie/Heeler that she brought home when they were both pups and rather than accept the idea that Stumpy was a mixed breed dog, she referred to him as an Azlue. 

He was an awesome little dog and again, the best traits of all three.


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