# Breeding bigger bucks to smaller does



## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I have a smaller doe who is from excellent producing lines - she's a cross between american chinchilla, rex, and a few other breeds. She kindled her first litter for me last week and had 12 popples! Unfortunately four of them were at the front of the box where they apparently chilled and didn't make it, but this doe's mother regularly raised 12-13 kits, 6 times a year. I bought her specifically because her mom was a top producer in that rabbitry, even though her lines are smaller than I'd like....

I bred her this time around to one of my rex bucks, who is about her size. But I was wondering if I could safely breed her to a bigger buck who is around 12 pounds (American blue x NZW/Flemish Giant). My end goal is to get the size of her kits up while keeping the litter number up as high as reasonably possible.

I know with lots of animals you have to watch the size of the male relative to the size of the female because of birthing issues. So I guess my question is, do you think I'd be asking for trouble breeding a 7-ish pound doe to a 12-ish pound buck? Is there a rule for how many pounds bigger a buck can be without causing the doe difficulties during kindling?

Thanks!!


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't want to chance losing such a super doe to birth complications.

You might consider breeding her to a buck just a tad larger than she is and then select the larger kits from her litters to be kept as future breeders. Over a few generations of careful selection, which doesn't take long in the rabbit world, you could likely bring her descendants up to the size that could be safely bred to a 12 pound buck.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

That's kind of what I figured, and that's the way it is with most of the mammals that I have experience with.

Do you think if he weighed maybe a pound more than her, it would be safe? I'm looking for some kind of rough estimate to use as a guideline.......


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## Beaniemom (May 25, 2007)

I don't think I would either. Someone at a show mentioned to me that 75% of the kits size comes from the Mom though, don't know if thats true or not, but it may explain why its taking me forever to increase the size on these does!


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## Pemburu (Apr 20, 2006)

I really don't think a lb or a couple lbs is really going to hurt your doe. I've seen a small mutt doe that pops out about 10 per litter with no problem. She's one of the best moms I've seen as far as raising them all up and then breeding back at 3 to 4 weeks. 

She gets bred back to various NZ white bucks which all are at least 2 lbs larger...probably more like 4lbs as she probably only weighs 6 or 7 and the bucks were in the 10 lb plus range. I'm not saying "just do it" , but I've seen it done with this doe with no problems.

I currently have one of her doe kits (because the mom was such a good producer). She is a couple lbs heavier than her dam. She seemed to follow suit in her first litter with building a nest and taking good care of the kits. The genetics seemed to have been passed along, at least I'm hoping that. 

One funny thing is, her mom was black and never gave a white NZ looking kit. Her daughter (my doe) gave all whites with her first bunch.

Edit: I think the kit size has a lot to do with the litter size. The doe mentioned above (mine) only carried 5 on her first litter. Her 4 week old kits are at 1.5 lbs and have always been larger than the kits next door to her that were born from a larger NZ / Chinchilla cross with 8 kits in that litter. It's like the goat folks who have birthing trouble with the 1 large single rather than the twins or trips. My opinion only... no research to back it.


_Past performance is no indication or guarantee of future performance. Pemburu is not responsible for any loss associated with opinions mentioned in this thread. Under no circumstances will Pemburu be held liable for losses incurred due to information presented anywhere in this thread. Please do your own research before following the advice of Pemburu or any other poster. Not all opinions mentioned on this site are suitable for your rabbitry needs. Carefully evaluate your own risk tolerances_


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

I'm not expert on genetics, but it would seem to me that not only the size of the buck but the size and breed of his ancestors would need to be taken into consideration. The Flemish giant blood in the 12 pound buck you mentioned, for instance, would worry me every bit as much or more, than his actual size. I may be totally wrong about that, however, and I'd like to see comments on this subject from someone who has made a study of genetics and rabbit size.

That is interesting, Beaniemom, about the size coming mainly from the doe. Perhaps Mother Nature looking out for the doe's well being...


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## Skip (Mar 13, 2008)

Another option is to raise a buck from her and then use it to breed a larger doe. Would this be a viable option?


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

When your 12 pound buck is bred to other does how many do you get in a litter?
I had a doe always that threw 10--12. She weighed 8 pounds and had some mini lop in her. I bred her to a 10 pound Cal buck. Other does that i have bred him to only have 6 at a time.
When my mini lop cross kindled she only had 5 very large kits and 1 got stuck. So we had to put her down.
I think if I had bred her to my NZW buck who normally throws 8-9 she might have been OK.


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## jil101ca (Jul 2, 2007)

I'm not an expert either but I do know that they can throw back to another breed that is in the background. Every once in a while Wannabe will give me Angoras even though he is not Angora. That is one of the reasons he is semi retired. I don't think I would personally would take the chance on losing the doe.


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

It really does depend, and yes it does help to have more kits in the litter, more kits, smaller kits. I have bred a Flemish buck to a Harlequin doe with no problems, she was an experienced mother. She did have a smaller litter, 5 kits I think, but did well. When I've seen problems its often with someone breeding a large meat breed to a dwarf or non meat breed, like a Tan, with their slim bodies. I wouldn't breed a larger breed to one that matures under 5 lbs, or has a slim body style. Mini Lops are an interesting case, because they have such great depth of body and are heavier and more meat type than one might think, and so could be bred to a larger buck without many problems. Still, its best to breed like to like, phenotype to phenotype so to speak.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I haven't bred the buck yet so I don't know how many he's going to throw. I bred one of my rex bucks to my Californian doe and got a litter of 8, then bred him to this smaller doe and got a litter of 12. I've re-bred the Californian doe to a different buck, and she had a litter of 7. I'll have to wait until I breed the smaller girl again to see how many she has in her 2nd litter. 

My plan is to cull the smaller of my two rex bucks and replace him with this bigger buck. I can at least breed the bigger buck to my bigger does and hopefully get more size in the offspring. If I can't safely breed him to the two smaller girls, then I just won't.


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## bowbuild (Aug 2, 2008)

I bred my biggest AM Chinchilla 11.5lbs to a standard Chinchilla 6.5 lbs as a experiment. I could honestly care less about the standard, as I am into AM Chins. I was expecting the standard to have a hard time......BUT she had NO problems what so ever. 

I would not do this unless I was willing to lose in a gamble. Now I am curious what traits they will have, mom or dad???

Bowbuild


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