# genset speed controll



## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Been kickinging around building a power plant,

have a 4 cylinder engine cost Free.
just need the gen head, want a ST style. 30k - cost $1,000+.

I would be happy to come in even at 3,000 think I can do it for far less total.

Searched and searched and I'm not the only guy looking for a solution for a stationary automotive type engine application.

need a way to govern speed, not so much limit as to keep it study as loads are applied. 

I want something mechanical, not to much on electronics.

Any body have a homebrew option or even a inexpensive off the shelf solution?


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

Here is one place that sells an electronic controller that will do what you want, and give you an auto-start feature. 

http://www.dynagen.ca/index.php


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Steam engines commonly had a centrifugal governor. Study some plans for those and attach to the throttle linkage.


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## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

Surplus Center used to carry a really nice Perkins governor, but they appear to be out. You could always check Ebay for something like this governor. Needs a bit of work to modify it.

One thing to be aware of is there are different type of governors. You want a fixed speed governor to get the best results from the generator. 

Michael


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

many older farm machinery that used gas engines used a bolt on governor, 
Hoof and Pierce built most of them, do not know if there still in business or not, but one may be able to find one in a tractor dealer ship, or on a old combine or harvester or even tractor (most tractors had self built engines and the governor was built in) but combines usually used a third party engine and the governors were external and belt driven, 
some possible sources
http://www.saturnsurplus.com/governors/governors.htm
http://www.gilmoredist.com/product_types/governors.html
http://www.foleyengines.com/HandyForms/Long_Range_Universal_Governor.aspx

from time to time they show up on Ebay,


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## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

Here's an interesting thread on another forum:
http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=1898.0

Michael


http://www.partsfortechs.com/asapca...98647-governor-control-kit-stepper-p-534.html


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

old John Deere combines had a nice belt driven governor on them. These governors bolted to the engine


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## idahodave (Jan 20, 2005)

I haven't tried this, but an aftermarket automotive cruise control could work


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

idahodave said:


> I haven't tried this, but an aftermarket automotive cruise control could work


I have not tryed it either but I would think that the control of the engine, would be too sloppy (or at least the cruise controls I have used on the road),

the mechanical Governor, is usually with in a few cycles or a few percent if the unit is set correctly and the engine is properly running and a Good carburetor, 

most likely one would want a "universal" Governor, that is belt drive, 
the gear drive would need a front cover and some way of oiling it, unless you have a engine that it is designed for,


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## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

It would be nice to find something like whats on this engine. Lower left hand bolt on item is the governor.

OUCH! ($424) Universal governor

Here's some more, much better prices if you can buy them.

Michael


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

thanks for the thoughts guys.

a few I have considered. 

I was hoping for some red neck ingenuity. 

Actually still am... LMAO

I got a Idea, just need a few parts. If it works out I will get a vid on you tube.

problem with the governor is they limit speed, they wont raise the rpm when the engine droops.

most mechanical are not Johny on the spot responsive. thats one issue I'm trying to avoid. the other issue is price... 

did find some surplus ones not too bad but review for the application at hand where not to hot. 

the cruise control was a thought, but like the electronic controls something I wont be able to fix unless I have a box of parts.


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

||Downhome|| said:


> thanks for the thoughts guys.
> 
> 
> problem with the governor is they limit speed, they wont raise the rpm when the engine droops.


some RPM limiters, are called Governs, but this is not what is being discussed, 

but some are designed to run the engine at a given RPM, and they shut the fuel when it is a light load, and they open up the fuel when a load hits, 

and the belt drive universal Governor is what you need to operate the gen set,

it is what I have on my gen set, 

my combine has one, 

my tractors have one on them,

they make the engine run at a given speed, by operating the throttle,

yes they limit speed, but they also ingress speed when it drops below the design parameter, 

my gen set normally will run with in two cycles 59 to about 61 cycles it keeps the engine running at 1800, 
(on a total no load I set the govern to run at about 62 cycles and as soon a load happens it settles in to about 60 cycles, or 1860 rpm or so, 1800 on a 4 pole generator would be exactly 60 cycles, on AC current, (about 30 rpm + one cycle of 60 cycle AC)

(some new generator sets use a electronic Governor set up that does the same thing,

the mechanical Governor, has a set of weights and springs in it, and the weights swing out and push a lever that connects to the carburetor or fuel flow adjustment, If the speed is to much it shuts the fuel down and if it it not enough it opens it up, 

I will repost this link READ IT, you ask for help but apparently you do not read what has been written or posted for your education,

http://www.foleyengines.com/HandyForms/Long_Range_Universal_Governor.aspx

it will explain the operation and adjustment of a typical belt drive engine Governor, 
(NOT a vacuum or electronic SPEED LIMITER),

below is a picture of the gen set I built, a number of years ago, it is a 30 kw 3 phase unit,


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

here is a picture of the Governor on my Gen set, (now this belt drive Governor is or was made for this engine, a universal has a larger bolt on flange that can accept more mounting applications, 
Note: the arm under the Governor (on the original application of the engine {a combine} this is what the throttle was hooked to, when you pulled it back it would block the Governor from opening up the carburetor placing it in low idle, if you look I have wired that out of the way,


in the photos, you see the linkage to the carburetor, it is the control on the carburetor, it adjust the carburetor to keep the engine running at the speed the Governor is set to, 

depending on the application and the speed desired, some of this is by the pulleys (as the Governor has a speed range in which it is designed to work, and the linkage and the spring settings,

















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small lawn mowers have governors on them and they open up the carburetor and shut it down when needed keeping the engine running at a set RPM,


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

farminghandyman , Again I do appreciate the advice. From Every body.
the link you posted for the Hoof/Pierce Governor Instructional Guide. I had already looked over prior to my post. I searched for 2 weeks and read a lot of stuff before posting here. 

You guys glanced over a few lines in my initial post though,

"I want something mechanical, *not to much on electronics*.
Any body have a *homebrew* option or even a *inexpensive* off the shelf solution?" 

farminghandyman you picked up on the no electronics part. but missed the other two.

Have you priced mechanical governors as of late? I think in one thread I read foley wants around 700 bucks for one, and that was a older post, also seems that Hoof/Pierce is defunct. they had/have a few different types some not built for the long haul. I did find surplus hoof/pierce at a decent price, though kinda questionable as to life as I'm pretty sure they are used surplus and there is much in the way of specs on these units.

Though its nice to get first hand info from someone that uses a mechanical unit, rather then some dead thread where the guy couldn't get it to work right.

so don't think I'm discounting what your saying just weighing it with all the other info I'm assimilating.


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

the governors I have used have been reliable IMO
4000 hrs of use on my combine 
on the old "U" tractor most likely has over 10,000 on it,
the one on the generator is newer, as the mount on the original was cracked, but probably has 1000 hr on it before it was converted to the generator, 
the old 4290 combine before taking the engine off of it and re powering the fork lift, most likely had 2000 hr on it, 
if a person keep them properly oiled, they seem to last a long time, most governor problems are do to improper adjustments, 

and yes I have priced governors as of late, some are ridiculous, but I have seen surplus one brand new (NOS) go for $75. 

I do not know what your plans or ideas are for the generator set, but since I built mine, about 20 years ago, it has been exercised more than it has been used for emergency power, (I try to run it an hr or so ever few months) some times I will flip the transfer switch and power the farm with it when exercising it so it is operating with a real load.

Good luck on your project,


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

thank you and thank you for the input.

my hopes are a daily power source, not all day but cycled every few hours maybe 4 on 6 off. run a few heavy loads and perhaps a few off schedule runs as needed. charge the battery's well its running , do the wash , pump some water that sort of thing.


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

you may be just as well off to consider a piece of farm equipment, that has a built in governor, (like a tractor, combine, win rower) and if needed rebuild the engine, 

for example my son was picking up scrap, and we picked up a nice older win rower/swather made by john Deere, with a nice 3 cylinder diesel engine, has about 3000 hrs on, it would make a wonder diesel gen set, it has the SAE bell housing as well as a PTO shaft coming off the engine,

a tractor engine, combine engine, even it it needs to be rebuilt 

by looking at a commercial engine your normally looking at unit that has a life of up to 10,000 hrs, 

a car engine (older from the 60 thought the 80's) may be only good for about 3000 hr or less,
the newer may be good for another 1000 or so, but then your still running gasoline, 

I know there harder to get a hold of but Pre Y2K many were getting the Lister clone
to build gen sets out of, very fuel efficient, (one of the precautions was to disassemble it and re clean out the castings of sand), http://www.otherpower.com/fuking.html

the lister is similar to the old one lung hit and miss engines in looks, very fuel efficient, 

If I was going to look for a gen set that was gong to be used to power something on a daily concern, I would would look for the most efficient unit I could find,


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

I Saw a picture of a factory one time, but they had a generator what was belt driven setting between two engines, one that was large, and one that was much smaller, 
the units has clutches on the belt drive, but what it looked like was the small engine was used at night and the large for the heavy day time loads, (I do not know how much one would save in fuel by this arraignment or not, 
(I have a small Briggs powered generator 3400 watt, but the big 6 cylinder take nearly no more fuel than the Briggs does when the load is the same, the big factor on the 6 cylinder on the big gen set is it has the power to put out nearly 50 amps per leg, not 15 amps, like the small one, 

one other thing I have thought about, on making a generator set, is not to make a gen set in the normal, but to make a big battery charger, (possibly a air craft generator), 
and use to charge a large battery bank, and use a good large electronic inverter, (may be have a AC generator on the engine as well, but where most generators are inefficient is in the charging of batteries and low power needs,

(besides power outages, I would think I could keep my freezers charge up (normally) with less than three runs during the day, but I would like to have access to power 24/7, for the lights the TV and some other needs, fan on the wood stove etc, the igniter's on the gas range, 
all which could easly be handled by a inverter, now if when charging freezers and other heavy power need if it was allow powering a good battery charger alternator, and toping off the batteries, great,

one other thing as well, would be to hook up the cooling system in such a way to CO generate the hot water one wants via wast engine heat, 

these are some thing I would like to try some day, and may have if building from scratch to day,


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

We are thinking along the same lines FHM.

This is a project at least in practicality, I have been researching and watching others experiments for a long time. I'm Finally going to do it.

Fuel is not of issue, Being in Michigan we are gifted with a source of wood.

So I'm going wood gas. 

My big issue was engine life and parts availability. My cousin gave me a Boat with a mercruiser inboard 120hp. I planed on redoing the thing but then got to looking into the engine.
its perfect for a high output generator. they are built like a tank,5 main bearings and solid.everything I've read says they are not built like the auto engines but for abuse. its relatively fuel efficient and water cooled. splined shaft output make hooking the head up easy.feet on the bell housing and front mount bracket make mounting easy.

I want to tap the oil pan and attach a low volume oil pump so I can have a larger oil reserve. I think it will be of benefit for long runs. not only engine life but the oil also. Still thinking on this.

I do plan on using the coolant for heat co-generation. again the cooler I can keep it longer the engine life and oil. plus that heats fuel I'm using might as well benefit from it.

the one other thing I want to do is make it tri-fuel. keep the original carb for gas but add
a block under it to allow me to run propane and the wood gas. my thought there is the butterfly on the carb could regulate the air mixture still.

keeping it cool and well lubed with those couple additions (larger oil reserve and larger better coolant system. as well as the short runs with light to moderate loads through the day. semi annual maintenance. think I could get a lot of hours out of that thing.

In the mean time collect as many as I can.

I also know that I will not get the full hp out on wood gas, I do plan on half. hence a 30k
head. I really only probably ever will pull half that. 

one other reason besides conserving engine life and fuel for the intermittent runs is to keep the gasifier breathing so to speak. I may have to figure a something else to keep it alive but thats the plan. 

all light loads would be wired to one sub panel and all the heavy to another. heavy would
feed the light through a ATS. the light would also run off the inverter and battery bank when not powered by the generator.

Water from the well would be pumped to a high water tank and used to gravity to feed the plumbing system when the generators not on.
Fridge and freezers to the basement with extra insulation, ice box in the kitchen.

eventually money saved from not incurring the bill would go into solar panels and a few turbines. at least 100 a month.

this property also has a big hill in the back, I keep thinking water battery. fish pond top and bottom and a small hydro unit at the bottom. 
I know not efficient but useful none the less. if its power being generated and not used I don't see the harm. plus it would be a source of food and no battery's to maintain or replace.
I just need to figure out a way to include some plant beds with out loosing anymore efficiency.

but enough of my ramble, most of this is just thoughts at the moment. The big thing is getting the gen set together and in use.

I did think about a smaller generator also. kind of a off prime supply and exerciser for the gasifier. may still include such.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

anyone wants to Critique my thinking on these matters. Please do, I am always willing to listen. Sometimes though I just got to do the learning the hard way.


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## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

Downhome: I'm sure someone out there has built a home made, reliable, inexpensive governor themselves. I get the home machine shop magazine, and you would be surprised by what some people make. (1/4 scale running v-8 engine comes to mind) Unless you have a machine shop, you will not be able to duplicate their design. 

Since every tractor out there uses a governor (gas and diesel), along with generators and industrial engines, I suggest you try to find a used one from a tractor salvage yard, or on Ebay/craigslist. If you have a choice, a constant speed governor will give better regulation than one that works over a wide range. Either is better than nothing. Inexpensive is in the eye of the beholder. Tweaking one of these units to get good response has to be easier than coming up with a solution on your own.

Here's one on ebay that was only $13.50 with only 20 min. left to go. You can't get much more inexpensive than that.

Michael


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## solidwoods (Dec 23, 2005)

I'm setting up the same, gasifier/engine/30kw gen.
The wood gas requires you to regulate gas and air to feed to the engine. The ratios of each will vary depending on rpm (and gas concentration) so that makes it difficult to mechanically regulate. If all you needed was to move the carb butterfly to maintain rpm one could use the engine oil pressure through a hyd. cylinder counterbalanced by an adjustable spring. 
For rpm regulation I'm going with the engine controller sold by GEK. Its designed just for this task. Yes it costs money, yes I will have to read the instructions and learn a new small trick, I don't expect something for nothing. 
GEK only offers gasifiers for up to 20kw or I'd get the gasifier kit.
I'm also going with the 30kw 2 bearing gen from generatorjoes, and a 125hp 6cyl.
Water filtered gas, and a very large gas cooler.

Wait till ya get to maintaing the fuel at a certain level in the gasifier.
jim


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

"Wait till ya get to maintaing the fuel at a certain level in the gasifier."

I've got a few plans on that Jim. I dont want to give them away just yet.Seeing as its unproven as of yet. Found the piece I need just yesterday.

I just wish I could afford one of those engine eating shredders. the way they eat Engine blocks they could make short work of some decent size logs.

then feed that to a pellet mill. yup pretty expensive too.

thats where the issue will be I think is maintaing suitable size feed stock. not too big and not too small.


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## dsljim (Nov 11, 2011)

Woodward hydraulic governors were used on gas and diesel generators for years. I have the perfect candidate for your project, a ww2 surplus signal corps Westinghouse. Turns 900 rpms. It has a long stroke 4 cylinder leroi with the rite governor, it says during continuous use add 3 oz grease to the bearings every 6 months ( it was built to last) even has water cooled exhaust in case you want to use that heat. And yes it's 60 cycle it was built back when 60 cycle hum was common. After world war 2 Germany had hundreds of thousands of vehicles on the road,there's lots of info on those producers,they even had semis.the neatest design I have info on is the constant feed with a rotating cruicible with bin gates above and below. There's some good stoker fed units runing round the world. A good design for stop and start gasifiers are filling a compressed tank while running and then using that gas till your up to temp, but with 30 K you can make a lotta heat in under a minute.oi


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## dsljim (Nov 11, 2011)

Hey Downhome,is that one of those mercury's with the 460 Ford head? If so there's a few running around with twin turbos #1 is get the head gasket from mercury marine only.
If you Turbo the engine you wouldn't have to waste the heat in the gas and detonation wouldn't be a problem because you wouldn't be condensing so much moisture out of your gas.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Thanks for the Info, Will check it out.


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