# Grain Free Milker update



## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

Let's see here... we started transitioning our star doe (who has been milking for 4 years straight without breeding her back) off grain supplements on June 18th for the health and welfare of our family. 

We've banned oats, wheat, rye, barley, and corn from our household due to allergies- and thus all our animals are now free of these grains as well. 

Streak free ranges and her milking ration of grain was at first half replaced by alfalfa pellets and then totally replaced by alfalfa pellets. Its been three weeks since she had any grain at all.

I anticipated that her milk production would decrease, but it hasn't. It's increased and she looks gorgeous. In fact we've traveled with her quite a bit this month, camping and fishing, and she's even showed far less stress than usual when traveling.

I'm impressed and excited! Of course, winter is coming and she'll have to be supplemented with our new menu then... so things might change. But for now things are going just peachy!


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## Lada (Jun 7, 2008)

I'm glad things are going well so far, and I look forward to your updates. How do you plan to get enough fat and carbs in her diet this winter? I'm curious to see how she does long-term as well.


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## copperpennykids (Sep 6, 2004)

I find this very interesting. Thank you for providing periodic updates.

Another gal in North Carolina has taken her goats off of grain for health reasons as well, but they are having a few struggles. Definitely milk dropped. Of course, hers kidded this Spring...

How much milk is your doe currently giving?

Camille
P.S. You may be able to add fat with flax seed or BOSS


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

I have millet, BOSS, flax, kelp, salmon meal, alfalfa pellets, beet pulp, and possibly rice on this winters goat menu thus far- in addition to free choice alfalfa cubes.


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## RiverPines (Dec 12, 2006)

mtn.mama said:


> I have millet, BOSS, flax, kelp, salmon meal, alfalfa pellets, beet pulp, and possibly rice on this winters goat menu thus far- in addition to free choice alfalfa cubes.


I am curious, how does a ruminant digest fish?
Adult herbivores are designed by nature to not have the ability to properly digest animal protein.
A kids rumen is different than an adults for milk. Once they are grown the rumen changes for browse...no more milk.

Other than the fish, it sure looks like a healthy alternative there.


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

I haven't read your other updates, but this is very encouraging, not only from the standpoint of the goats not getting most grains, but you have milked her through for 4 years straight! I am so very interested in hearing more about this because I am interested in milking through. How many lactations did she have before you started doing this? What kind of goat is she and how much does she give. If you'd rather not clutter up this thread with that information, please PM me! Or direct me to a thread that you have already posted this information.

Thanks
Linda


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

RiverPines said:


> I am curious, how does a ruminant digest fish?
> Adult herbivores are designed by nature to not have the ability to properly digest animal protein.
> 
> Other than the fish, it sure looks like a healthy alternative there.


I read in Pat Coleby's book 'Natural Goat Care' that goats do fine with fish, but not other 'meat'.


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

Ah... I did a search and found your other posts!


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

To be honest, I hadn't considered that goats are supposedly herbivores- since my goats regularly steal raw salmon carcasses from my dogteam and devour them.


In fact all of our many animals love fish... and so do we. I just finished canning 45 pints for salmon salad sandwiches and have another couple hundred pounds to process as frozen fillets. Our menagerie gets all the trimmings- heads, fins, guts, backbones and skins.


This is Streak's first lactation- she's half Alpine/half Toggenburg. I'd have to look back in my records, but I think her highest 12 hour production was 80 ounces. She averages about 38 now, up from 32 when she was on grain.


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

Ah a little over a quart a day... but still that is encouraging. I think the alfalfa pellets would be better than the grain anyway. But I am curious why you plan to change it in the winter?


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

No, no, I don't think I'd keep milking her for a quart a day. Its 38 ounces every 12 hours- so 2.5 quarts a day, plenty for my family and a little to sell. 

The reason I would increase her plane of nutrition in the winter is because I live in Alaska and it gets ---- cold and difficult to forage successfully. All of us need more fat in the winter and carbs help too.


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

OH! Well that does explain it! Oh and I grew up in Alaska so I know what you mean...


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

How is your goat's condition with the change in grain?

With feeding the alfalfa pellets, beet pulp, and alfalfa cubes, you probably are not getting as far away from the grains as you want. They put all sorts of floor sweepings and binders in those things, even if the label doesn't say so. Look closely, bet you will see corn. If they come from Alaska Mil & Feed or Manna Pro, I can guarantee it.

Why is her production so markedly reduced from 80 oz x 2 to 38 oz x 2 (before the change in grain)? Is that normal for her? Three out of four of my NDs up here all give me over two quarts a day when their kids are off. I'm completely ignorant of this breed combination, though I would have expected a large goat to do much more?

A side note, with feeding fish or any raw meat, you open up a whole world of different parasites, says my vet. Same goes for if you are letting your goats eat where your dogs eat/defecate.

By the way, selling milk in Alaska is currently illegal unless you 1) pasteurize and become a Grade A dairy or 2) add a dye and charcoal and mark for pet consumption only. I've worked hard on getting this law changed for the past 11 years. Please help us change the law, and in the mean time, please don't break it!  You can PM me for more info.


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

Hi Heather-

I have to say that my doe looks absolutely fantastic without grain. And yeah, the pellets/cubes come through Alaska Mill and Feed. The beet pulp has molasses, and will only be added as a very small amount for vitamins. I'll be interested in talking to Alaska Mill and Feed about their process and inclusions. Thanks for the heads up on that.

Streaks peak production was 80 ounces, some 3 years and 9 months ago when she was still fresh. She tends to decline in the winter to about 28 ounces per milking and increase in the summer to about 34 ounces per milking. Now since she's off grain and with only pellets/mineral salt as supplements to free ranging her milk production has INCREASED from her normal non-fresh summer status quo to 38 ounces average.

We don't feed fresh meat scraps to our animals. All meat is deep frozen for weeks before being fed. This takes care of the parasite problem. And the dog team is now corralled while the goats have free run, so there hasn't been any dogpoop accessible to the goats for a couple of years now.

While it is not up to the state of Alaska to tell me how to live or what I can do with my milk and eggs, I respect that you are trying to change the law. Lets just say that I "share" my milk and they pay me to deliver it then.

Do you milk your goats year round and "through"? 

Lisa


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## Wildwood (Jul 2, 2007)

Lisa thanks so much for the update. I saved your previous post because I found it so interesting that you had milked her through that long and I appreciate you sharing what you've learned with us. I'm new to goats but have researched for a couple of years before getting them. We kept the same feed formula for our goats that the previous owner used which is alfalfa pellets, beet pulp, BOSS and sweet feed and it must work because despite the move and our inexperience all four goats did great. I have tinkered with it til it's four parts alfalfa, two parts BOSS, one part beet pulp and one part sweet feed. Their production has actually increased a little even in this hundred plus heat we've had. 

I'm strongly considering milking one of my milkers through or at least giving it a try and breeding the other this fall just to see how we do. Please keep us updated on your progress.


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

Wildwood... may I ask how much of this ration your goats get at each 'meal'? I've had goats before, but not for some time. I now how a couple Nigerian Dwarf kids - a doe and a wether. And I realize that how much you feed yours being full sized goats and in milk will be much different than what I would feed mine. But I would like it for a comparison. 

Thanks...


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

Oh and I have another question... what can I use to replace sweet feed? Could I use plain oats or barley?


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## copperpennykids (Sep 6, 2004)

Thank you for posting the quantity of milk you are getting from your doe. Makes a big difference in evaluating whether this is something that will work for others.

1/2 gallon a day makes you happy, and I am glad for that. But my Saanens milk 1 1/2 gallons/day and they could not sustain themselves on this feed unless they dropped their milk production dramatically. I say this, not in criticism of what you are doing (better for your health and it is working for you), but to help others realize that this may not work for them, especially until there is some evidence on how this affects the does' health long-term, and keeping in mind that this only sustains a lower milk production. (Others may do better feeding conventionally while milking through - higher milk production would provide more milk to "share", make soap with, feed hogs and bottle calves, etc. and thus make your goat a more productive member of the family). 

I have a good friend that milked her 3 year old Saanen through on accident (she was bred, but apparently didn't take) so she just started milking her again. this doe milked for 3 years straight, fed some alfalfa and a little grain. She continued to give just over 1 gallon /day.

My sister has one of my does in CA. She had "loaned" her to another gal as they were moving and she failed to get bred. When she got her home that spring, (dried up, not bred), when the other goats came into milk, so did she, and gave 10 lbs/milk a day for 2 years. 

So milking through is very do-able. Dairies do this all of the time, as they are more interested in milk than they are in replacement does and the work/milk entailed in raising kids. Genetics and breed play a big part in the does ability and willingness to milk through. 

SMWON: Oats and Barley are an excellent thing to feed your milking doe. Actually better than sweet feed, although they may object to the change at first. Kind of like a kid used to eating chocolate chip cookies for lunch switching to whole wheat bread.... you will meet with some resistance at first!

Camille


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

Camille- I'm just sharing my story here, as we all are... but in the interest of discussion- why do you think that going grain free will only work for what you term low milk production? 

And BTW, my doe is probably the MOST productive member of my family, as not only does she provide milk year round year after year after year after year, but she also routinely backpacks whatever I load her up with. 

Interestingly enough, I raised this doe's mother too, and she was a short season milker... basically drying herself out by 6 months post partum... so its not jusst genetics playing in here.


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## Wildwood (Jul 2, 2007)

smwon said:


> Wildwood... may I ask how much of this ration your goats get at each 'meal'? I've had goats before, but not for some time. I now how a couple Nigerian Dwarf kids - a doe and a wether. And I realize that how much you feed yours being full sized goats and in milk will be much different than what I would feed mine. But I would like it for a comparison.
> 
> Thanks...



I also have a little Nigie that is nursing a buckling and I give her two cups twice a day plus browse and hay. DH and I were just talking about how good she is looking so it must agree with her. Her little buckling is starting to nibble on her share too so they are more or less sharing it now. My grown nigie buck gets two cups of alfalfa a day with just a small handful of the girls mixture included. LOL he thinks since he has a grain or two of everything mixed, he's getting the same thing. I know he could make it on browse and hay but I can't stand to feed the girls and leave him out...he's the most loving of all my goats. My little nigie doe got the same as him when she was pregnant.

Also I have considered replacing the sweet feed but they get such a small amount, really just for taste that I haven't gotten too serious about it but I would like to eventually since they've really taken to the alfalfa. They didn't eat it as well when I first increased it but now they love it.

I am a newbie so others may have better advice...this is just what is working very well for me. My goats are looking great even though they've been moved and living in this horrible heat wave. There is always room for improvement. I do feel the increased alfalfa is why we've had the slight increase in milk.


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

copperpennykids said:


> SMWON: Oats and Barley are an excellent thing to feed your milking doe. Actually better than sweet feed, although they may object to the change at first. Kind of like a kid used to eating chocolate chip cookies for lunch switching to whole wheat bread.... you will meet with some resistance at first!
> 
> Camille


Thanks Camille... I don't want to feed sweetfeed. I did buy some organic all livestock ration that has 12% protein. They love the alfalfa pellets though and not so much the ration. I am going to mix up a batch of the ration wildwood feeds her goat except I will use oats and or barley instead of sweetfeed.

Thanks for the info Wildwood... It is good to know how much you feed your Nigerianâs. It helps a lot in my planning. 

Sorry mt.mamma... didn't mean to hijack your thread!


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## copperpennykids (Sep 6, 2004)

Lisa,

I realize that this is a discussion and some of it is just plain sharing. So I think we are on the same page - and there are many ways of reaching one's goals, and everyone's are different.

The reason that I feel that no-grain won't work for high-production goats is that the grain is a source of energy that the doe needs to keep up this amount of work, without detriment to her health, both long and short term.

Experience has shown me that when my high producing girls go off their grain (Titania in particular requires a little sweet feed or will stop eating the grain) that their milk drops and their condition suffers. We don't try to push grain (challenge feed) in order to get increased production, however. If I want a little bump up in milk we give the does alfalfa pellets, which they consider a treat and thus eat a bit more. 

If I increase their grain, they will also bump up their production, but I figure that 1 1/2 gallons is plenty, especially as they will keep that up for almost the whole 10 months lactation and then drop to 1 gallon a day when we struggle to dry them up. 2 years ago Titania milked for 335 days (4200 lbs which is well over 500 gallons) and we had to fight to get her to dry up. She could have easily milked through!

We didn't milk her through as her kids are in high demand - bucks for what they can bring to the milk ability in the herd, and the doe because she can milk like her dam. Titania is also a beautiful doe who appraised 92EEEE this year. That means she has the form to support her function.

Anyway, we have learned that different management styles work better for some than for others. Because our goats are such heavy milkers, we tend to look toward other high production breeders that we admire for tips and ideas for managing our does the very best we can. Using my management for your does wouldn't make sense in that you want to avoid grain. My management on your does' dam would also not make sense (pretend you were doing grain) as she would probably get fat on our rations when she wasn't milking it off of her.

Oh, I think you are leaving Streak's sire out of the picture when you say that genetics have nothing to do with it. Management plays a part as well... Is Streak's sire the Nubian or the Alpine? Just curious.... Like how well did the sire's dam milk?

Anyway, your doe is providing for you exactly what you want - so that's a good girl! For me, I figure that the goats all need to be fed (at least maintenance feed), wormed, vaccinated, housed etc. I just like to get a lot more production for my efforts, and my does just love to milk, so it is a happy partnership for me.


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## copperpennykids (Sep 6, 2004)

smwon said:


> Thanks Camille... I don't want to feed sweetfeed. I did buy some organic all livestock ration that has 12% protein. They love the alfalfa pellets though and not so much the ration. I am going to mix up a batch of the ration wildwood feeds her goat except I will use oats and or barley instead of sweetfeed.
> 
> Thanks for the info Wildwood... It is good to know how much you feed your Nigerianâs. It helps a lot in my planning.
> 
> Sorry mt.mamma... didn't mean to hijack your thread!


You get your protein (and calcium) from your alfalfa, your carbohydrates/energy from your grain. So feed excellent alfalfa for protein and the plain grain (oats/barley) for energy. We top dress with BOSS for fat and roughage. The goats love BOSS and it keeps them looking sleek and shiny. Pretty simple, really.

Camille


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

I wouldn't think dropping the grain from that animal would have too much effect on her milk production or probably her condition. With that little of milk and as long as she has been milking it's almost standard for her instead of something she only has to do for 10 months every year.
Get her bred, and freshened and see how she does.


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

Camille- I think you're right on, in that different herds require different management types. My goal in raising goats is to breed thick coats, sweetness and calmness and good year round milk. They have to be able to backpack and cross glacial rivers without getting weak or cold. So I'm not raising star milkers- just extra hardy stock who also provide all the milk my family needs.

Streak doesn't have any Nubian in her, her sire was a Tog that I raised after grafting him onto Streak's Alpine mother when her own kid died. I have no milk records on his line... he and his brother were a $35 dollar (registered) answer to Gigi's missing kid problem.

I'm strongly considering breeding Streak this winter in hopes of getting a doeling to continue her line... I'm thinking of a longhaired Ober with good milklines...


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## copperpennykids (Sep 6, 2004)

Ober's aren't well known for their milk productivity or ease in kidding. This is from Ober breeders who love their beauty. Shop carefully when using an Ober....

Camille


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

Lisa, you have to be really careful with "sharing" the milk. The current law states that the milk cannot even leave the farm in its raw state! How ridiculous is that?!

My understanding is that Alaska Mill is now paying someone outside to mill all their feeds packaged under their name.  I don't like finding big pieces of corn in my pellets when it's not even listed as an ingredient on the bag. Grrrr...

No, I don't milk my goats through.

This experiment is very interesting to me. Thank you for sharing it. I would like to decrease my does' dependency on grains but have not considered eliminating them completely.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

I would really hope that you would add some grain to her diet during the last 50 days of pregnancy and the first several weeks of her new lactation if you do choose to breed her.

She and you should be commended for milking through like this. Also reaslize this is a small amount of milk for a large breed doe, so grain is a moot point with excellent roughage and calcium. She needs only as much energy as she gleans for her backpacking, not milking. Once you add your winters and a pregnancy, I think she will suffer without the extra calories, carbs and energy from grain.

Fish meal is not assimilated in a ruminant as protein. Fish and feather meal are popular protein substitutes here in Texas also, I feed my goats neither.

Heather, I really do hope you are around in 10 years so we can show you this post  Milk regs won't be changed anytime soon, you will eventually join the rest of us in your illegal things you do with your goats  or your farm as a whole...Or you will loose the big chunk of income it gives you. Vicki


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## minnikin1 (Feb 3, 2003)

mtn.mama said:


> I have millet, BOSS, flax, kelp, salmon meal, alfalfa pellets, beet pulp, and possibly rice on this winters goat menu thus far- in addition to free choice alfalfa cubes.



As newbie goat mom, I'm still learning so much. It sounds like most of you prefer alfafa pellets over alfalfa hay - why is that? 

How do you feed alfalfa cubes? Aren't they too large/hard?

Mtn mama, why are millet and flax ok, but not other grains?


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

There is less waste with pellets vs hay . Also in lots of the country good hay is hard to come by so its cheaper to feed a pellt.


Mt Mama ...seems like you have a nice hardy girl that fits your needs.

Other goat owners beware this will not work for most goats . I guess mine are pampered a bit to much . With a large pasture past there knees . alfalfa pellets and grain I still have trouble keeping weight on some of my girls. But I will also not waste my time or extra feed on a doe milking less than 3/4 of a gallon a day .


Patty


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## QoTL (Jun 5, 2008)

Mt Mama-

I am finding this info incredibly interesting. Sort of reinforces for me the fact that in many parts of the world, bags of feed are unavailable, and goats MUST subside on what they find. And yet, these goats still breed, kid, and supply milk for their families.

I think sometimes we forget that the lives of our animals weren't always dependent on someone else to grow feed and harvest hay, not to mention the other stuff we give them.

I love my goats- I'm too new to cut out grain, mix feed, and feel like I'm doing a good job with it. I think it's wonderful that you are, and that you have done so. 

Bravo to you! Keep up the updates (and this is just mho, but I'm not sure why you couldn't feed more of what you are already feeding successfully through the winter months? Or is it because you need to replace browse also? Just asking here, so no attacks please!)

Meghan


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

Hi Meghan,
Thanks We have created a society totally dependent on grain... it feels good to get away from it. The last stages of growing a baby, kidding and freshening take ALOT of calories, as does living outside in an extremely cold winter environment. Those are the times I want to provide denser calories and nutrients, to reduce stress.
Lisa


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## Qvrfullmidwife (Jan 10, 2004)

"The reason that I feel that no-grain won't work for high-production goats is that the grain is a source of energy that the doe needs to keep up this amount of work, without detriment to her health, both long and short term."

I agree, this is how I have come to see it. Similar to a marathon runner...the hay and alfalfa pellets are the everyday great nutrition that an athlete needs while the grains are the high carb pancake dinner that they eat the night before a big race to give them the calories and energy that they need for peak performance. Yeah, they could run without the carb overload, but would they finish well?

"in many parts of the world, bags of feed are unavailable, and goats MUST subside on what they find. And yet, these goats still breed, kid, and supply milk for their families."

Yes, this is true that in most of the world goats subsist on whatever browse they have access to.

~however~

For many in the western world our goats are bred to produce more than the average goat in Botswana. We have 'fiddled', if you will, with the basic genetics of the goat enough that they give more, hence need more. Cut the grains and while yes, these animals will breed, kid and make milk, I do not think that you would see the 'excess' that we take each day. Perhaps as a consequence, dairy is not as large a part of the diet in other parts of the world as it is here.


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## XCricketX (Jun 7, 2006)

I am currently not feeding any grain, nor hay. We have very fertile and rough rough ROUGH land. The goats are free-ranging and they are the fattest, shiniest creatures that I've ever seen. I have one goat that almost looks metallic!

I will probably have to do something different when the snow comes, but for now they are doing great...

My Alpine/Nubian cross milker is milking at 1 gallon a day. 1 1/2 when I was feeding alfalfa.

We also have the corn/soy/gluten/casein allergy thing going on.. so we've had to find other ways of feeding our animals to get away from that. My children and I are sensitive to these products and products of animals who eat them.
My daughter didn't speak until I took her off from grocery store, soy-fed chicken eggs!

Cricket


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

Hi Cricket... sorry to hear you're in the same boat but relieved that I'm not alone in this endeavor! So glad your daughter is doing better. Our chickens and dogs are all off of gluten and corn as well- it sure makes everything interesting, and I have no doubt that we all would be healthier without the evil grains.
Lisa


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## XCricketX (Jun 7, 2006)

LOL! You sound like me!
Yes, my dogs and cats are soy-free so far, I've been trying to do the raw food diet thing, since I mainly raise rabbits, but we are still feeding the dogs and cats some hard foods.

My rabbits are on all browse as well.. I have the NZ type and some satin mixes. They grow out competitively with the commercial types on pellets.. but it is ok if they weigh a little less, since my rabbits do not seem to have as much dress-out fat on them as the pellet eating ones I had before.

My chickens are free-ranged and get some garden scraps here and there as well... it's been a trial with all of the animals, but I do believe that we are finally making a little progress! ^_^

Cricket


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

I recently went grain-free with my goats as well. Last year we had our first grass-fed steer, and we noticed such a marked improvement in our health, we decided not to eat any more confinement/grain based meats. Next came switching to pastured eggs, which were very expensive, so we got our own chickens. They do get some grain, because they are not ruminants, but they also get plenty of bugs, weeds, grass (I see them eat green grass), vegetable scraps, and I am going to add some fish meal to their diet to increase the Omega 3 content of the eggs.

It only made sense that our dairy was also forage based. Why should we miss the opportunity for more beneficial milk? for a breakdown of the difference between grain fed milk and 100% grass (or forage) fed, see this link:
http://www.eatwild.com/articles/superhealthy.html

Golly, you'd think I was torturing my animals with whips and chains, given the "flaming" I got on my goat list!

"Copper Penny", the "problems" I have had have little or nothing to do with not giving grain. They have more to do with the fact that my goats grew up in Pennsylvania, as did I, and they were not used to the climate, the massive parasite loads in the Southeast, and the horribly infertile, mineral-poor soil here. Thanks to you and others, I was alerted to the copper problem, and am noticing improvements.

Other problems I had were also not related to no grain. I had a case of traumatic mastitis from a goat lifting another in the air by her udder. But I managed to save the goat, and the udder did not turn black and slough off, so that is a victory. (her name happens to be "Victory", too!) 

While production DOES drop on forage alone, and you really have to make sure they get high quality forages (I cut and carry browse, and supplement with alfalfa cubes), other folks who have tried this report that a host of problems magically disappear when they are eating what ruminants were intended to eat. I forget which issue it was, but The Dairy Goat Journal had an article about a woman who makes artisan cheese with the milk she gets from her 100% browse fed herd. I have misplaced my copy, but it was a couple issues ago. Maybe others here have seen it?

As for "energy", if you have high brix grass, that is like candy to them, and afternoon grass has more sugar than morning, or that on a cloudy day, so you might notice fluctuations in production between gloomy and sunny weather. also, goats do need to eat taller browse, so planting different forages in addition to grass in a pasture is a good idea. I try to grow them hybrid pearl millet, which they love, but due to my soil, I have not had much luck with it getting tall enough. I'm going to fix that problem with my pastured chickens and my chicken tractor. 

I have not really thought of giving my goats fish, but my farrier (who does not like grain feeding for horses, for it causes so many hoof problems) said I can give them an egg now and then. Also, pregnant and lactating deer in the wild have been observed spearing (with their hooves) and eating fish from shallow streams, so even ruminants crave some extra dense proteins now and then. Some have even been observed raiding ornithologists' nets (which they use to capture song birds for studying and banding) and eaten the birds trapped in them! Might not get digested in the rumen, but it does in the fourth stomach. 

If I see a goat needing extra energy, I plan to give stabilized rice bran pellets, but I think that will be mostly in winter, and in late pregnancy.

I got a call two weeks ago from my grass-farming hero, Joel Salatin, and he gave me some good advice on having a successful forage based goat dairy. He suggested watching my herd to see which does foraged the best and kept the best condition while giving a fair amount of milk, and keep the doe kids from them, sell the rest to someone who feeds grain. It may take a few years to get what I want, but I don't necessarily have to ditch my favorite breed (Saanen) I should also grow my browse tall, to minimize parasite loads. Cut and carry works great as well. 

As for production, while the goats are no longer bursting and waddling, they do fill out and milk fairly well, about a half gallon at a time from my best goat. BUT, it has been 100 degrees, and she gave that last year, and was not as healthy or energetic. I'll see what she gives at her peak next spring, but for now, I am satisfied.

These goats are not "milking themselves to death", as someone once warned me they would. They adjust their production if they are fed well but not pushed. I've had a goat or two that would milk themselves to death, even on grain. Something seems to change with the way they metabolize food when they are foraging. 

The athletes. My husband only eats extra carbohydrates when he goes on bicycle rides longer than an hour. Most distance athletes these days shoot for fat burning because it is slower and steadier. Sugar burns hot and creates lots of free radicals that damage arteries. (not to mention causing too much insulin secretion) If you look at some of these intense athletes, they do carb load, and they do win races, but so many of them are getting cancer at a very young age, and so many bodies break down so early. There is a woman my age who is a world champion, just missed the bronze in the Olympics. She looks VERY old. They are bright stars that burn themselves out. I've seen some bright stars in the goat world die from kidney failure, but they sure could milk like gangbusters!

My focus has shifted from getting the highest production possible to getting the most healthful milk possible for my family. You just can't fudge the Omega 3 factor. I mentioned my husband bicycles. He could not do that before, for he was pretty much disabled by an immune disease. So was I. Omega 6 heavy diets lead to inflammation and chronic disease. Forage based meat and dairy have about a 1:1 ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3. Feedlot beef, for example, has a 20:1 ratio. Poor health and inflammation begin when our diets exceed 4:1. The difference in my family's health is so profound, I would be foolish to turn back.........in spite of the occasional ridicule I still get.

Goats die from not eating grain? I haven't eaten grain in three years, and I'm not only still here, but a whole lot healthier than I was when I followed the politically correct (and politically derived) "Food Pyramid"!


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

Wow that was an incredibly informative post Lady Marion... thank you for that.


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## DQ (Aug 4, 2006)

I am several months into grain free milking also and I have seen only a tiny drop in production over all. about a pint short of a gallon a day. she is 5 months into her lactation at this point and I have put her on free choice alfalfa pellets recently. her production was slgihtly lower when I was feeding 4lbs per day and went back up when I went to free choice to reduce or eliminate parasites. $ wise it was better to have her on limit fed pellets due tothe only slight increase in production on free choice but factoring in the markedly reduced risk of parasites free choiceis worth it.


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## Freeholder (Jun 19, 2004)

This has been a very interesting thread. I think I'll do some readjusting of my milker's diet, because DD and I both have autoimmune diseases. Maybe eliminating grain from my goat's diet would help.... 

Kathleen


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

her production was slgihtly lower when I was feeding 4lbs per day and went back up when I went to free choice to reduce or eliminate parasites.
..................

Could you explain this please on how you are eliminating parasites? Vicki


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## GoldenWood Farm (May 31, 2003)

I too have gone grain free on my does. I haven't noticed a change in their production really at all. Granted I am not weighing it daily but by looking at it and feeling it that alone doesn't feel like it has changed if anything they went up a little bit on production. They are getting alfalfa pellets on the milk stand and then their grass hay in the morning and/or evening. Granted it is summer right now so when winter comes their hay intake will go up. They where eating pasture a lot this spring/summer up until it dried up pretty good.

With the Alfalfa I am not measuring it but they do get a full scoop of it every time they get milked (only once a day right now). IF I feel they are on the skinnier side I will give them a bit more. The alfalfa pellets I feed is 15% protein where as their grain was 16% protein. My kids also I am switching onto just alfalfa pellets but they are 3 months or older. When younger I do free choice feed them grain (the grain I use a pellet that my friend formulated and contains more alfalfa than some of the others). So far my goats have beautiful shiny coats and are looking great. I just started the no grain thing this year so I will see how it goes next year as well.

Justine


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

Lady Marion, how long have you been doing this? Have you gone through a kidding season yet?


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

i still feed grain to my milkers and have not thought about to quit.
i have only one doe that does not want to eat her grain and still have to ration her alfa or she would get too fat. she is not a very good milker either but i contribute that of being relatively new and that she needed a lot more time to adjust then my other animals. plus she only kidded with a single doe kid. have to see and wait what she does next year. she certainly is a goat that does not need grain nor does she wants it.
i think if animals have plenty of browse, they will get their grain in form of grass seeds.


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

I was not able to do this over the past winter, because we have had a severe drought, and my oat grass did not grow until late, plus we were TOTALLY without hay for three months! It was not even available in my area, unless it was very old and moldy, and I wasn't going to give THAT! It was then I discovered alfalfa cubes. I also fed beet pulp, rice bran pellets, and Southern States goat pellets. I felt I had to feed _something_, we were so forage deficient. It was also VERY expensive feeding alfalfa cubes instead of hay! 

My cows have gone through calving two years running without grain, and they do great. I don't think there will be any problems with the goats. If they are getting their energy needs met and their rumen is healthy, what could be more natural for a ruminant than good forage and good minerals? I do intend to feed rice bran pellets again during late pregnancy if they need extra energy, and sunflower seeds if the price comes down (It is sky high here right now), and of course if the rain stops again and my oat and rye grasses don't grow, I'll have to improvise. 

Theoretically, one can have something green growing all year in my region. It just has to RAIN occasionally, LOL! Fortunately, the drought seems to be over...... :sing:


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

BlueJuniperFarm said:


> This has been a very interesting thread. I think I'll do some readjusting of my milker's diet, because DD and I both have autoimmune diseases. Maybe eliminating grain from my goat's diet would help....
> 
> Kathleen



Here is a lot of material to read. Very technical, but it shows the science is there, and it is well worth the effort!

One excerpt:

The importance of omega-3 essential fatty acids in the diet is now evident, as well as the need to return to a more physiologic omega-6/omega-3 ratio of about 1-4/1 rather than the ratio of 20-16/1 provided by current Western diets. In order to improve the ratio of omega-6/omega-3 essential fatty acids, it will be necessary to decrease the intake of omega-6 fatty acids from vegetable oils and to increase the intake of omega-3 fatty acids by using oils rich in omega-3 fatty acids and increase the intake of fish to two to three times per week or take supplements. Omega-3 fatty acids have been part of our diet since the beginning of time. It is only for the past 150 years that omega-3 fatty acids have been decreased in Western diets due to agribusiness and food processing. The need to return the omega-3 fatty acids into the food supply has been recognized by industry, which is already producing omega-3 enriched products. 

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/21/6/495

Judy


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

So glad to see this thread is still going, and that I have compadres in achieving a healthier existence. My does output is still on the rise, just shy now of three quarts daily.


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## Jeanette (Jul 29, 2008)

Cricket[/QUOTE]
but we are still feeding the dogs and cats some hard foods.

Cricket, 
I am just curious why you are still feeding some kibble?

Jeanette


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## Jeanette (Jul 29, 2008)

Lady Marion said:


> and I am going to add some fish meal to their diet to increase the Omega 3 content of the eggs.
> 
> I understand that you can also increase Omega 3 by supplementing with flax seed. Do you know of any reason not to do so?
> 
> ...


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## XCricketX (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeanette said:


> Cricket


but we are still feeding the dogs and cats some hard foods.

Cricket, 
I am just curious why you are still feeding some kibble?

Jeanette[/QUOTE]

My rabbitry isn't large enough yet for all of the feedings. We are in the middle of expanding still and hope to have enough breeders by November (we are OH SO close)... I have 1 dog totally on the raw, just haven't gotten the LGD's all the way on it yet. 
I'm learning about a crockpot rice stew type feeding that will take over the kibble bit. I've got a good friend who is a dog breeder helping me on that... 

I have noticed a HUGE difference in my animals when I've switched to all forage and/or raw.
We just all have to take one day at a time and do our best with what knowledge we have, and strive to always learn/do more.

Cricket


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

It is deer season here, and my Great Pyrenees are living large!! :sing: I belong to a local club, and when the deer are cleaned, I am there at the gut bucket, fishing for livers, kidneys and hearts.....although I lost the hearts saturday because another former Yankee was there and he loves deer heart. He can't possibly love it THAT much, though, so I'll try to bring some home next time.

I give my dogs raw meat when possible. When I have to feed dog food, I use Nurture Brand Heavenly Harvest. It has no corn, and has lots of vegetable and fruit scraps. My male Pyrenees used to have an awful limp from an injury he had as a pup, but removing the corn-laden dog food really helped. After four months of deer season last year, and lots of deer scraps, his limp totally disappeared. And folks wonder why I avoid grain. I don't like the aches and pains, is why!!! You wouldn't believe the difference until you try.

I get rice bran pellets manufactured for horses. Of all the grains, rice is the only one that I feel safe using for those who need extra energy, including my children. Even the rice bran would skew the fatty acid profile in the goats, so I really work harder on the forages. Feeding a good probiotic seems to help them get all the benefits from their forage, too. I started using Fastrack.

Flax meal. I might try that for the goats, but I read that when these designer egg companies use flax, they are increasing Omgea 3's, but it is not the most beneficial kind. :stars: I really don't understand it all yet, am still trying to process the whole thing......At any rate, this is what the pastured poultry folks are doing in my region, so that is what I am trying.

I definitely vote for the grass fed steak and some nice veggies! You know, when we first tried diet to improve health, we removed the grain and sugar, but it only went so far. I was such a skeptic about grass-fed meat, and was sure it would be horrible. It has been the best we've ever tasted. Even more of a shock is how the body responds to a proper Omega 3 balance. I'm not "cured" yet, but I'm worlds better, and know I will improve further the more Omega 3 balanced foods we eat. The milk was just a natural extension of the journey. Ruminants eating what rumens were designed to digest. Imagine that! :sing:

Eat Wild! :cowboy:


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

useing fish meal or even raw fish for poultry is a great source of protien and omagas, Chickens are Omniverous and need animal protien to stay balanced just like we do, flax seed is ok but fish is better, chickens will pick clean a catfish carcass in no time,


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## copperpennykids (Sep 6, 2004)

Lady Marion,

I am on the other list (PM: Camille) and was appalled by the nasty name-calling that happened on that site.

With that said, I think it is only fair to mention to the folks on this board that you have been having some health challenges with your goats and that many on that list felt that your "grain-free" approach was harming your goats.

I know a gal that was managing her Boer goats according to "big University" ideas: the grass hay vs. alfalfa debate, especially pre-kidding. While she didn't lose all of her goats, she did lose some. She has changed her management practices and is no longer having so many kidding/ketosis problems. But the long time effects have been staggering:

Does with brittle bones at ages 4 and 5. 
Kids from these does with inadequate milk and poor mothering instincts.
"Fail to thrive" to full genetic potential kids
Does with repeat ketosis problems years later
Kids from these does with higher than average ketosis problems

For myself, (and No, I don't have the health challenges that you all have - side note: I grew up on home grown grain-fed beef, pork, and eggs, as well as hay/grain fed raw cows milk) I will wait to see how the 3rd generation of animals thrive on this situation, as well as the 1st and 2nd over time.

As far as "problems" disappearing, we feed alfalfa/grain and have no problems to speak of. Hmmm. Beware of "one-size-fits-all" solutions folks. 

I am sure that Lady Marion is researching and following up with her goats for good management. but she is paying attention to minerals, varieties of forages etc. 

Just trying to provide a balance to the above discussion.

Camille


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## SoulProtector (Aug 15, 2008)

I don't understand Camille. Are you trying to not be rude or are you being rude?


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

I think what Camille is pointing out is that it is a very small community in dairy goats. Rarely can you go onto a new forum and have someone not know who you are, have not followed you since you were new in goats. Either us old broads have been on the forum or owned the forum you started with. 

So 2 years into goats, having problems with the goats on another forum, and then on here with everything is rosy, is missleading.

I would hate for someone to move away from good sound basic feeding practices thinking that the information shared here was sound...only to find out that you can't get through kidding and early milking with the information because even the poster could not.

If you could find animals to milk who were not genetically capable of having quads or milking a gallon a day for 10 months, peaking at 12 to 14 pounds..then yes you could take does who only twined or does who milked poorly (by dairy standards) sure you could then get by with some of the above advice. Perhaps with Kinders with the Nubian side being poor milkers and does who only twined for generations. Or milking meat goats...but I bet even with Kiko's milk ability you could run into problems with milk fever with no carbs or energy. Or in areas with excellent soil, excellent weather with plenty of rain, rotating pastures etc and having the last part of pregnancy and kidding/milking being done on fresh spring pastures with plenty of calcium (legumes, clover, lepisedia) to support this. 

But add health problems to the mix and you simply can't expect the girls to live on the edge like this, kid and produce milk.

Vicki


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

Gee, here I thought this was a homesteading list, and not an ADGA breeder list....Homesteading is geared toward sustainability, is it not? Local agriculture, not based on high fuel use and high grain feeding, is a trend that is growing, and one of the benefits is a more healthful product that the health-conscious public is starting to appreciate and demand. Some of us have to dare to be different and step up to this demand.

I'll post what the veterinarian on the my goat list posted about forage-fed dairy goats. Yes, he has some, and yes, he is working toward sustainability. He addresses the "energy" issue. There is planty of sugar available for goats in good forage. What do you suppose "high brix" means? If I have to be careful not to let my horse pig out and founder on my pasture, then it must be good enough to fatten livestock or support milk production without a negative energy balance. Here I can grow something good all year. Winter oat grass is very sweet! Other folks may have to use other means. Has anyone explored tubers? They have starch as well. I think most detractors I meet have not tried the idea and found it wanting, but have simply found the idea wanting for not having been tried. Sure, if you take a bunch of goats that are used to sitting in a stall all day and having everything brought to them, and then suddenly turn them loose in even the richest pastures and browse lines, there will be some who just dont' "get it". (Chances are Nubians WON'T forage well due to their needy personality, but Cricket would disagree with me there, LOL! I don't intend to find out. Kinders, maybe, Nubians, no way!!)

While some of my girls may not "make the grade" for sustainable and HEALTHFUL dairying (and you ALL ought to be worried about your SAD diet- Standard American Diet...and the chronic diseases it causes) that does not mean they will be neglected, nor does it mean the goal is wrong. It simply means that the goat world has fallen into the same Big Ag trap, and has been breeding goats for unreasonable goals and blue ribbons instead of for goats that can do what goats were meant to do- be the mainstay of the small homestead where cows are not practical. I will not be seeing three gallons a day again, as I did in the past, but with selective breeding, I am sure I can grow a core herd of goats that will fit into the market created by the growing awareness for local, pasture based agriculture and products that more accurately reflect what our ancestors consumed before there was such a drive for bigger and better production from fewer and fewer animals.

If I do find a certain line would do better in what has erroneously become "normal" feeding practices, I will sell that line to those who do not have the same dire health needs my family has, and they will be an asset to their new owners. 

By the way, Vickie, the lady in the Dairy Goat Journal article who switched to forage only did not lose any goats because of it, but the confinement dairy with the SILAGE feeding program lost two hundred one day. Have you read those articles? I keep reading about so many high producing herds with such HUGE cull rates due to the does simply burning themselves out, or because the feed is contaminated with mycotoxins. But when a confinement dairy loses goats this way, we tend not to blame the management practice. It is considered just an "accident" due to a freak contamination......No, what I am doing is not an abhoration, but what the dairy industry- cow and goat- is doing certainly is, both from a human health perspective and from a sustainability perspective. 


The veterinarian's perspective will be in my next post. Keep in mind he lives in the Tropics, and writes from that perspective. I have spoken to other graziers in temperate regions, and they have made the point that cereal crops used as forage are a GREAT way to achieve the energy balance needed. It is no accident that winter grain crops are so lush and green just as the calves and kids are ready to hit the ground. If they are not, then maybe we ought to be changing our breeding schedule slightly, rather than forcing the goats into our timetables? Those in snowy regions may have to come up with other innovations, but there are plenty of cow dairies in the Midwest that have gone forage only without losing critters.

A little story here. I picked up a road killed deer this summer near what was a lush wheat field this past winter. I have never seen so much fat on a deer down here! (and I have processed plenty, believe me!) And it wasn't white fat, it was bright yellow, from all that beta carotein, no doubt! Her udder was huge and swollen. Poor fawns probably starved after she was hit, but I found it fascinating how much fat she had packed away on that green forage. Extra sugar in the blood is what stores fat, so obviously her energy needs were being met and THEN SOME!!


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

From one of my few but most staunch supporters, used with his permission:

In regard to the constancy of Mother Nature, I believe I've already
told Judy that this is one of the reasons I prefer a tropical climate.
Most of my family's there in the US. Though I was one of the first to
go there at a very young age, my family has never understood why I so
much prefer the Philippines, with all the corruption and inefficiency
of its government. They especially cannot understand my stubbornness
in sticking to a tropical-type system of agriculture when US and Euro
farms look so much more impressive with all the modernity and machinery.
It's precisely because of Mother Nature.
Countries in the northern hemisphere have several seasons. Tropical
countries frequently have only two. Even in more temperate countries,
the cold season severely limits crops. Generally, we in the tropics
have a more extended period of crop-friendly weather- heavy rain
during the growing period followed by lighter rain and more sun during
the fruiting to harvest time. And we certainly don't have winter,
though November to March can still be nippy. As I said, Mother Nature
here is more constant and has a less dramatic temperament.
This is particularly important in pasture establishment and
maintenance. Unlike in other climes, once pasture is established in
the tropics you can easily maintain it for more than a decade-
precisely because of the very short dry periods and consistent
humidity. None of that choosing a better annual forage. Everything's
practically perennial here, guys. We should not even need most of the
machinery very necessary to maintaining a US dairy or beef farm-
forage/silage silos, high powered forage cutter-choppers, well-
insulated barns, etc. We don't even need hay-making technology as far
as seasonal scarcity of fiber is concerned. We only need to know how
to make hay if there is an overabundance of crop byproducts like rice
stalks or tuber/legume crop foliage- but even those can be fed
straight from harvesting with minimal drying. We do still need more
tech and machinery inputs more adapted to our climate and system of
farming. We are appallingly lacking in good irrigation and watering
systems, simple low-horsepower tractors, and tropically adapted cattle
and goat/sheep barns for intensive raising.
As far as grazing livestock tech goes here, intensive raising is far
from the average. Cattle and other ruminants are tethered- a very
embarrassing and illogical state to me, and probably to the tethee
too, lol. Tethering is a very disastrous system. It severely limits
and depletes nutrients (both soil and animal- hence lowering
production) because farmers usually prefer a patch for various reasons
until it is denuded of forage and manure is concentrated in that one
area. I cannot even begin to mention the concentration of parasites
and other infectious agents, which would be ok if there were more
tethering areas. But even in a lush climate, if a pasture area is not
cultivated, even something as small as tethering plots are not nearly
that productive enough and are quite scarce in number. Though I
appreciate the role of tethering as a mechanism for developing
parasite immunity and resistance in Nigerian goats and other African
livestock, it took centuries and I believe more in faster modern
techniques.
BUT IF, pastures are established and a cut-and-carry system of
harvesting is implemented, production could easily be on a 40 head of
cattle per hectare (approx 80 head/acre) level ALL YEAR ROUND. Did I
say EASILY? LOL! That level of production and efficient land use is
impossible even for US cattle farms- the most mechanized in the world.
You may wonder why that scenario hasn't materialized yet. Most
countries now- both temperate and tropical, are cereal based when it
comes to starch production and their staple crop dependence mindset.
There is an inappropriate perceived importance and universal
acceptance of cereals as the only reliable staple food. This is
particularly harmful where population is exploding in relation to
cropland. Hence, the drastic but dead-end nature of focusing and
maintaining cereal-growing areas, in our case- rice. Cereals as staple
crops just cannot keep up with that psychological and actual need
because of their relatively low yields. If you try to disrupt in ANY
way that focus on cereal production, you will most certainly meet with
extreme criticism and outright derision. Why? Simply because grass and
other forage crops are the enemies of cereal farmers- almost anything
else growing in rice land is considered a weed. The mildest of
criticisms you will hear is that a (rice)farmer does not plant forage
(especially grass!)- at the very least, he cuts it down to the roots
and destroys it, simply because forage competes for nutrients and
harbors pests- ridiculous. Your pasture establishment procedures will
be interrupted by not only criticism but also by outright thievery and
destruction of property, as has happened in my case.
But Japan, Korea, Thailand (the world's biggest rice exporter) and
Vietnam, are shifting a lot of their former rice lands to beef and
dairy production, planting more forage at least on an intermittent
basis. Why? Because they realized that grass-fed livestock are more
efficient and produce more protein and energy per unit of land than
most crops. Especially on a cut-and-carry system. Thailand and
Vietnam, in particular are testing a more enlightened system of
shifting to ruminants and tuber crops like cassava which, with
improved soil management and genetics, can produce more tonnage and 5x
more starch than rice. No cereal can compete with a properly chosen
and managed tuber crop in terms of starch production. Also, goat
research in those 2 countries is at a well-advanced pace compared to
others in the region. As we in this region will soon learn from Thai
and Viet examples, cereal starch preference and importance is just a
matter of taste. By the way, except for sugar beets (originally a
tropical crop), tubers/root crops are less prone to cause diabetes
than cereals.
Things are not hopeless for my country and the entire shift to
ruminants (MUCH PREFERRABLY GOATS, LOL) trend of thought. Much can be
expected if forage tech is wedded with new inputs on organics.
Filipino farmers choosing the organic path are slooowly being
enlightened on the notion that running a pasture based operation is
VERY organic. How much more organic can you get than a system that
integrates a decades long no-tilling policy (tropical pasture) with
tons of natural fertilizer (manure from ruminants)? Pasture
establishment and maintenance could very well be the backbone of the
organic movement here.
Not to mention its probable role as one of the mainstays of the
alternative energy movement. Can you say "biogas"? Huge amounts of it-
both from grass and manure. How much more far off the grid can you/do
you wanna get? But that's another story.
I'm all for forage-based/zero- concentrates livestock- dairy or beef.
But there's still a lot to be done for the technology, though:
-First and most importantly, its backbone- forage and pasture tech,
itself has a lot to research and implement. We need genetically
improved faster-growing grasses which also are much more efficient at
fixation and storage of a lot more carbon as carbohydrates- also
another very big ecological bonus of organic pastures. This would also
lessen fermentable carbohydrates in manure and total manure. It should
fill up the energy gap left by zero concentrates. Some new grasses are
already 70% digestible- a great increase from 10-15% digestibility of
your average forage.
-We also need better irrigation and fertilization tech, like foliar
fertilization using sprinklers to enhance nutrient formation,
temperature stabilization and water conservation. These factors may be
dealt with by foams (organic, of course) incorporated into sprinkler
systems.
-Although this system will be eschewing concentrates, I don't believe
it can do without vitamin-mineral supplements and other non-antibiotic
enhancers. Europe is only just now realizing that. So we have to get
into that, even before the US follows the Euro lead in what may be
for us extreme organics by banning most antibiotics in livestock feed.
Did I say a lot? Whew! At least it's a start.
But still, zero concentrates for ruminants is possible. Let's NOT call
it plain mule-headed stubbornness. Let's call it a better choice.

Dr. Marc Lezaron


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

"With that said, I think it is only fair to mention to the folks on this board that you have been having some health challenges with your goats and that many on that list felt that your "grain-free" approach was harming your goats."

Can you please tell me how a goat slamming another goat in the udder and causing traumatic mastitis is due to loss of grain? Or why Glory had MORE health problems when I was feeding her grain last year than she does this year on forages? She spent all her time in dog holes last year......but now with the copper bolus and the lush grazing, she is energetic and her hair is growing soft, her eyelids are getting some nice color again.

What is unfair is for you to falsely represent my copper deficiency problems, soil deficiency problems, and my drought, and the challenges these present, as a grain deficiency, before I was even on this list to defend myself, and use it as "proof" that what I am doing is wrong.


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

Lady Marion said:


> Gee, here I thought this was a homesteading list, and not an ADGA breeder list....Homesteading is geared toward sustainability, is it not? Local agriculture, not based on high fuel use and high grain feeding, is a trend that is growing, and one of the benefits is a more healthful product that the health-conscious public is starting to appreciate and demand. Some of us have to dare to be different and step up to this demand."
> 
> Daring to be different is o.k. You just have to make sure you represent the thing honestly. There are inherent problems with what you are doing and seasoned breeders are just pointing them out to you, and to who else is paying attention to this. It's really very important.
> 
> ...


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

I completely disagree that grassfed is a big fad. Time will tell the sad tale on that one, as we watch our grandchildren who were raised on generations of grain suffer unduly from autoimmune diseases. Someday the US will wake up and I don't think it will be long.

My goats require such little intervention that I have to think I'm on the right track. It matters not a whit to me that the "dairy industry" thinks grain is a staple. All my animals are doing just fine without it. In fact, they're doing superb. And yeah, I'll be back to let you know how they are after kidding and in two or three generations.

Have any of you read "The Omnivore's Dilemma"?


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

I've read almost all the "in-books" when it comes to grass fed stuff. It _is_ a fad. It's the newest thing that everyone is crazy about and where goats fit in to it is difficult to see and more difficult to do. It's nice that there are good things about it, but the question is can goats do this? A few years of doing it off and on doesn't tell us much. I reserve my praise until I start seeing long term success and continuing productivity in succeeding generations of goats.


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

I feed alfalfa cubes for calcium and protein.


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

Do you have to brake them up? About how many pounds do you feed a day?

By the way, do you know what proportion of foods your goats are getting? are they on your fields all day, or do you control how much grazing time they get?


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

Mnt. Mama, 

I have read Pollan's story of the steer he bought and watched fatten on a feedlot. It is absolutely repulsive to me to think of the way these animals are fed! 

You are absolutely correct that it is NOT a fad. The science is there. You can't fudge the fatty acid profiles, and you cannot get a healthful fatty acid profile from grain-heavy farm products. Even farm raised fish lose their health advantage when fed corn and soy. Poor health starts above 4:1 ratio, and our "conventional" meats have a ratio of 20 Omega 6 to 1 omega 3.

Did you have particular health issues that led you to ditch grain?


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

Free choice browsing. Lighly soaked cubes. As much as they want on the stand. Goats are fed extra according to condition and production.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Lady Marion said:


> Free choice browsing. Lighly soaked cubes. As much as they want on the stand. Goats are fed extra according to condition and production.



Did you know that you can replace the cubes with turnip greens in fall? They have higher protein and also contain calcium.
They grow in a pasture easily and produce well. Their is no magic to livestock feeding. It is a matter of growing what contains the food requirements and also what grows well in your area.

I tried this mix for this winter.
Sunflower/Buckwheat/native grass. I found the tilling to be excessive so next year I'm doing clover/turnip/ native grass. This should be a little less work to plant. We will see.

The thing to do is get your nutrients right and select things that grow well for your climate. We use grain only to move the goats, kinda like a lead.


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

"I don't push my goats by feeding them 100% alfalfa or anything like it, but we give ours high quality foods and we do get a fair amount of milk and meat back from them. That works for us. Through nutrition we are eliminating metabolic and nutritional problems and gradually the herd is getting so it doesn't need constant treatments, wormers, drenches and other expensive stuff. That's part of our goal. 

I really see the grass fed stuff as a big fad. There are many ways of feeding a goat as as long as thier basic needs of calcium, protiens ect are being met then it will work. I'm not sure how high sugar grass fits those needs. Isn't that like eating fortified cocoa puffs?"

Grain is broken down into sugar, and it is given for energy balance. Your own pancreas will not see a difference between a plate full of pasta and a candy bar, when it comes right down to it. Both raise the blood sugar. If the pasta is whole wheat, it might take a tad longer, but starch is simply big sugar.

A growing plant with high brix is just a better way of delivering the energy while keeping the fatty acid profile at a better level. It would be like comparing eating fresh fruit to eating cocoa puffs. Think about it!

So, folks claim my goats don't get the energy they need. Now you say they get too much sugar? No matter what I say or do, it will always be "wrong".

Perhaps this is just a misnomer. Obviously my goats are not "grass fed" if they are getting cut browse (including kudzu) and a variety of forages in the field, alfalfa cubes, etc.

Tell you what. check out this article, and go yell at this lady. She's the one who got me started when I read about her in DGJ. She'll laugh at your criticism all the way to the bank.
http://www.stockmangrassfarmer.net/cgi-bin/page.cgi?id=692


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Lady Marion,
Don't get discouraged. There are a lot of folks that keep goats different than the pet people. Just hang around a while. You will see who is who.


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

Lady Marion said:


> Mnt. Mama,
> 
> I have read Pollan's story of the steer he bought and watched fatten on a feedlot. It is absolutely repulsive to me to think of the way these animals are fed!
> 
> ...


My 13 month old daughter was born with multiple non-IgE mediated food allergies, including but not limited to corn, wheat, oats, rye, and barley. That's definitely what got me started in this direction. But honestly what is driving me now is all the health benefits associated with living grain free- for humans and for animals, for the land and for the water. Its just not a safe, smart or sustainable way to live- locked up in grains and especially corn. Corn is pure evil in my book.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

to call this "grass feed goat " if indeed they are raised on browse might not be very correct. browse includes grain in form from grass seeds. isn't that grain???

humans and animals evolved around grain and i find it kinda funny to say grain is unhealthy. 
what indeed is unhealthy is the way some grains are produced and the amount that are consumed ( not in balance with other nutritions ) 

my goats have grain in their diet, whole grain not pelleted 
i only have one doe that does not want grain and i sure don't force her. btw. she does not look more healthy than the other goats in her pen but gives less milk 

the article that was posted in another thread was interesting to read . i still think the problems this lady had in the beginning of goat raising was an imbalance of the diet she fed her animals and not the right minerals. would be nice to hear what exactly she did in the beginning.

every time has a special diet coming up. no meat/ only meat, no grain/ only grain, no potatoes/ only potatoes, no eggs (to much cholesterol) or how about the famous egg diet? fat free and so on. this extends to animal diet too. have you heard about going all vegan for your cats??? all have only one purpouse, *MARKETING* as long as my label differs from the others and brings in more money, everything is right  right??
i think they are all wrong as long as they don't show the whole picture. the human mind is a very very strong one and acts to what he believes. 

of course this is only my opinion


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

I have to agree about the corn. It used to mess me up BIG TIME! My immunologist told me it was the mold contamination in corn. Several molds are common in corn, and it is universally contaminated with aflotoxins, which are the most carcinogenic substances known. Not just sometimes, but all the time. It is just a matter of how much, and "little bits" are allowed in our food supply. Larger quantities are allowed in animal feeds.

Non-IgE. That must mean it is an eosinophilic response? That is a really tough thing for a kid to have. It took me forty years to develop an eosinophilic disorder, and it is no picnic. The forage based agriculture has given me so much more quality of life. No way will i turn back just due to criticism from those who could not possibly understand what it is to be disabled, and to have a husband disabled, and then to find hope and healing in diet where all the doctors and pills had failed. Oh, you know what my present doctor says is best for me? My grass fed meat! He buys grass fed beef for his own family! Folks are waking up to this slowly but surely.


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

My ND pushes rangefed above organic as far as priorities... I think rangefed is a better name for all of this grain free business... And I want to clarify that my dogs get rice and my chickens get millet- so what I'm calling grain free is really gluten and corn free.

We don't really know what is up as far as eos yet... dd's first pedi-GI appt is October 10th. She has reflux even when we stay far away from all identifiable allergens. This said, it is almost impossible to avoid corn in our society... its in almost every packaged food, meat and vegetables are rinsed in corn-derived citric acid, its derivatives are in most supplements and medicines and personal care products, its the adhesive in bandaids and on crayons and in latex and in carpet and in OSB/plywood and on envelopes. Its truly everywhere. Of course, this is only a US phenomenon, and it is the US that will eventually pay the price for subsidizing the corn industry and poisoning its people, animals, land and water to do it.


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

Wow. I hope she has a good check-up. Has your doctor recommended probiotics? I wish I had a doctor like that when I first became ill, but I found the answer by just doing my own research, and some channel-surfing, LOL! We stumbled upon a show called "Know the Cause" and learned about the anti-fungal diet, and kept hearing an MD on the program talk about grass-fed beef. We started doing that by default, since our leased pasture was too far for daily grain feeding. The flavor was far superior to anything we had ever raised, and the health benefits started to become apparent when we would recover from our fungal exposures so much faster. (We both have farmer's lung, eosinophilic fungal sinusitis, and we both used to have systemic fungal infections.)

My 12 year old son used to have bleeding rashes all over his body, and had asthma. He isn't troubled by either anymore, and he has not needed his inhaler. My husband and I were both on Fluconisol and Amphotericin B in the past. We need neither now, although we do use natural supplements, plus a good probiotic. But the forage based food was the missing piece in the puzzle.

So, like I said, I am not about to go back to my SAD life just because of some ridicule. And I just had to come on here and support you when I saw that you seemed to be in the same boat and needed to know you were not alone in the struggle. Good for you, doing the hard work of healing your daughter through diet!


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## coso (Feb 24, 2004)

If this is the ladies website you are talking about deborahsfarm.com
And all her goats look like the one in the pictures on the website. You can have your grass fed dairy goats. All these articles and websites read like fairy tales with her being a model, then a stockbroker then getting back to the land and making her own cheese. I'd say she is very good at marketing. Maybe not so much at the animal husbandry. Just my .02 to each his own.


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## MayLOC (Sep 20, 2006)

Seems like we have a lot of different topics going on at once in this thread. And seems like a few things being argued over that others aren't really disagreeing over. too many small topics going on.
==================
Mtn Mama- I can well relate to your world, as my now 7yr. old son was at 4 dx. w/ 45 IgG allergies and 10 IgE. My then 1 yr. old son was dx. w/around 10 also. But I think it was more along the lines of everything he was being exposed to he was becoming allergic to. This led to multiple, multiple complications, diseases and symptoms from all body systems. We have been on this road for 3 years now.

--------------
We are primarily cow/calf producers but have started marketing "grass-finished" beef as well. Not because it is the current fad or as a marketing ploy, but because we whole-heartedly believe in the health benefits it has to offer. 

http://www.freewebs.com/edmundsonranchgrassfedbeef/whygrassfinished.htm

you can check this page on our site for the benefits I have researched. There are two links at the bottom offering much more in depth discussion on it also. 

My reading all points to grass-fed being more in the range of 2 to 4 X the omega-3s when compared to grain-fed however (not more that was mentioned by somebody).

This is not part of the latest and greatest diet, this is just part of eating more healthfully; plain and simple. 

I am a huge proponet of eating for optimal health and to prevent disease.

=====================
The _grass-fed _term has been loosely thrown around this thread multiple times. HOwever truly grass fed would be like the beef on our ranch that are born in the pasture and remain there until we gather them to haul them to the processor at around 20 months of age. That is grass-fed to me.

And that is much different then several on here are really referencing with adding in various proteins and such. I have read of : rice bran, alfalfa pellets, beet pulp, fish and so on.

And I think a lot of the concern on this thread is over _truly_ grass-feeding dairy goats.

I do not grass-feed my dairy goats. They are not free-ranged either. Our goats are fed a mainstay diet of alfalfa pellets with oats/barley on the stand. 

To me I know in our area grass-feeding a dairy goat would be no different that grass-feeding a (lactating ) milk/dairy cow. I have known of and seen a few different producers locally who ended up with a dairy cow in their herd (usually part of a large group buy at the sale). They don't hold up in the end and one day are found dead in the pasture. One producer my husband worked for years back had a lovely dairy cow in his herd. I watched her alongside her beef herdmates for two years. She struggled to raise two sorry puny calves and on her third year she died a few months after calving. She couldn't live up to her genetics in those conditions and no way could she outmilk her beef counterparts and raise a calf of any equality. Now her milk output lessoned with her feed input, as you would expect it to. But still her genetics worked against her. Our ranch here figures on 1 au to 60 acres, so that factures in also. 

But I would expect the same to happen if I turned my dairy girls out and truly and solely 'grass-fed' them. 

I believe it was vicki that mentioned it originally, but I really do think that a boer or similar might give you better results than a dairy goat. Just like if I wanted a grass-fed milk, I would walk out into our pastures and look for a fat cow who was producing a good amount of milk naturally.

just some more thoughts to mull over. 

I think most here aren't arguing over health benefits of milk and meat, they are just concerned with the idea of _truly grass-feeding _a dairy goat, which others are arguing for, but not really sure anybody is _truly_ meaning GRASS-FED.


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## XCricketX (Jun 7, 2006)

Just for the record, my goats are "currently" NOT grass or grain fed. They are being fed on LIVE WEEDS and lots of them! ^_^ I'm not feeding hay, or grain. I am feeding a good mineral and the occasional alfalfa. That doesn't mean that I'm not apt to change that according to their needs to stay healthy though.

The rabbit forum has it going on really... 
I am using so many different kinds of plants to feed my rabbits with, animals of mine who can not go out and just forage like the goats. (yes, mostly Nubian goats)
I've been doing rabbits a whole heck of a lot longer than goats.. and I haven't had bone, kindling, etc etc problems with them, unless I fed them only a few plants for a long period of time, or didn't provide their mineral needs.
It's about Variety!
Honestly though... if I get into a plant pinch, I do find good hay, alfalfa... possibly some clean oats to feed through.

It very well should be noted that us "grain free" people are working hard to provide quality and supplement.
The world is not perfect... you have to provide what they can not get off from whatever land you are feeding. 
That doesn't mean we should automatically start feeding plastic. Just because someone can eat plastic and hasn't seen side affects yet, doesn't mean that it is good for you. 

Personally, I am working VERY hard to provide the balance they need. 

As far as I'm concerned, going as natural as possible and avoiding foods that have chemicals on them is not a fad.
For many years, it has been known that "live" plants and eating naturally in a balanced way is far superior to the SAD (standard American diet).

I'm not against grain... I'm against grains that cause my children's autoimmune problems to flare, and grains that have pesticides and other things on them that make those situations worse. 
I don't know about anyone else, but my family "is not" perfect. I would never say that they are!!!! There are histories in my family of cancer, heart disease, etc, etc.. and my family was also raised on "grain fed" beef, pork, chicken, etc etc.. just not the raw milk. I'm a pioneer in my family with that one. ^_^

I have seen my children do better by avoiding certain foods. I've just had to find nutritional sources elsewhere.
There is such a variety of other "Much more healthier" foods out there, that the saying that "You are not providing full nutrition to your child" is balogna! 
I felt like some of the other posts on here are saying the same thing about our goats!

If I find a grain that is from a chemical clean farm... and it isn't of the gluten and/or soy variety, and I've run out of my resources .. then I would be happy to "look" into using it.

This really isn't a debate between grain/grass ... it is about human alterations of the way food is produced verses feeding "live" natural foods.

Again, I reiterate, that we are not perfect.. nobody is... we must ALL do the best we can with what resources we have available and with what we've seen to improve our well being.
If you happen to be a person with a health problem... then you will actually "see/feel" a benefit from eating better foods. If you're perfect ... well.. then you will not see the difference live foods can do for you anyway... so it's a mute point.

Another forum I'm on for bodybuilders is "EatCleanLiftHard.com" ... you will see that most weight lifters who are REALLY shredded and strong do not eat a lot of grains, but eat mostly live foods (vegetables). They may eat a cup of oats in the morning, but that is to pull their energy through "intense" weight lifting before noon. Other than that, most of them avoid corn, wheat products, and some even avoid soy.

Cricket


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## XCricketX (Jun 7, 2006)

MayLoc, I posted before I saw your post.. I think you said thing much more elegantly than I did! ^_^

Cricket


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

Lady Marion- yeah, we use quality probiotics, non-stop... they are definitely key to gut healing. I don't think we have mold sensitivities but who knows? I hope your family continues to thrive.

MayLoc- how are your boys doing now? This allergy business sure makes your hands full fast! I hear what you're saying about the "grassfed" misnomer. It is misleading. But I don't think that is creating the dissent on this thread.



Its like my old gramma goat GiGi... she starts freaking out, attentive and bleating, when one of us humans leaves on foot. She feels like the herd is breaking up and she believes there is safety in numbers.

That's what I see happening here... a few people start doing things differently and the rest start to tweak. Isn't it human nature to seek our own path? Isn't that supposedly the American way?

I take 100% personal responsibility for the health and welfare of my stock and my family. I'm only sharing what is working for us. The info might be helpful or freeing to someone else.

I'm not looking to be some icon... I'm only providing some food for thought. I'm pretty certain that the Mesopotamians didn't have any Purina goat chow to rely on... and goats have thrived around the world for millenia.

I choose to live in an extreme environment, and thus my animals can't forage (much) year round. If I lived elsewhere it is likely I would construct a different plan to supplement their freeranging, as necessary.

I guess I'm just not really clear on why so many feel the need to attack us, instead of politely and kindly conversing/debating.

For me, homesteading is about living close to the land and being as self sufficient as possible. It means we do things our way and don't look to "the herd" for approval.

So how about realizing and accepting there are alot of different methods to goat rearing, instead of this whole my way or the highway attitude? We're all homesteaders here...


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

Mnt. Mama,

I don't understand it, either, and I really felt bad for you.

As for grass fed cows supposedly starving to death, I would repeat, "The eye of the keeper fattens the stock". Obviously some are not going to manage as well as others, and the grazier is kind of trying to go it alone sometimes. There are successful dairies out there. Goats may be more of a challenge than cows, due to their need for more nutrition, but it isn't impossible.

If I have a continued drought, and need to supplement more than I can grow, I will definitely do just that. In winter, I will most likely give some oats and rice if extra energy is needed. If they are not milking, then why not? My children eat these- I do not. They have different nutritional needs. 

I have resisted the push from more extreme homesteaders to stop feeding alfalfa (due to having to import it from far away), because I don't want my goats to go lacking if I have not gotten to the point of raising top quality forages.....which includes legumes, forage oats, natural browse, and whatever other green plant helps the goats thrive. 

But derision and ridicule have no place. 

I'll have to check out that picture, but my own goats look better now than they have since we moved here three years ago, and are more vibrant, so maybe I'm doing a better job. Maybe it's the alfalfa, LOL!


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

Yep, that is a sorry looking kid. Mine are big and robust. But you know, I don't WANT to sell my milk, and I won't have fifty-odd goats, so I can take the extra care to do it right before expanding.

I wonder what this gal's goats look like?
http://www.stockmangrassfarmer.net/cgi-bin/page.cgi?id=644

Most likely not like the National Grand Champions, if she has selected for foraging ability, but perhaps better than those others. I read her site, and she feeds alfalfa hay in winter. Maybe I'll call her and ask her some questions, LOL!

One thing is certain, this is going to be an interesting journey. It isn't as easy as throwing just any animal in the brush and letting it fend for itself. If anything, it takes more work, at least at first. And as Joel Salatin told me, it may take a few years for me to figure out which lines have better foraging ability, and breed for that quality rather than the highest production possible. I think I already selected the two of mine that are the most efficient. Glory is not one of them. That might change with the bolus, though. I'll give her time..


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## copperpennykids (Sep 6, 2004)

QUOTE from MAYLOC


To me I know in our area grass-feeding a dairy goat would be no different that grass-feeding a (lactating ) milk/dairy cow. I have known of and seen a few different producers locally who ended up with a dairy cow in their herd (usually part of a large group buy at the sale). They don't hold up in the end and one day are found dead in the pasture. One producer my husband worked for years back had a lovely dairy cow in his herd. I watched her alongside her beef herdmates for two years. She struggled to raise two sorry puny calves and on her third year she died a few months after calving. She couldn't live up to her genetics in those conditions and no way could she outmilk her beef counterparts and raise a calf of any equality. Now her milk output lessoned with her feed input, as you would expect it to. But still her genetics worked against her. Our ranch here figures on 1 au to 60 acres, so that factures in also. 

But I would expect the same to happen if I turned my dairy girls out and truly and solely 'grass-fed' them. 

I believe it was vicki that mentioned it originally, but I really do think that a boer or similar might give you better results than a dairy goat. Just like if I wanted a grass-fed milk, I would walk out into our pastures and look for a fat cow who was producing a good amount of milk naturally.

just some more thoughts to mull over. 

I think most here aren't arguing over health benefits of milk and meat, they are just concerned with the idea of truly grass-feeding a dairy goat, which others are arguing for, but not really sure anybody is truly meaning GRASS-FED.
__________________ QUOTE from MAYLOC

Excellent point about grass-fed BEEF cows vs. Grass-fed DAIRY cows. Holds even more true for Dairy Goats, I think, as pound for pound a Dairy goat produces more offspring and milk than a Dairy Cow.

My Boers are designed differently, both genetically and metabolically, than my high-producing Saanens, and can both kid and nurse their kids pretty well on browse and minerals. Different animals, really. 

With feed/hay costs rising, many folks are hoping for a magical answer that the weeds in their own back yard really will do the trick. I am just fearful that the economic loss in lost production, poor kids, poor replacement does, and actual death of the animals in question will cost so much more in the long run - and that doesn't count the heartache!

If you must change your feed for health reasons and can accept the loss of production, then that is your trade-off. But there are folks that have bee raising dairy goats for 20-30 years and what they know and understand should not be discounted lightly either.

Best of luck to those pursuing this experiment....

Camille


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

Nor should it be assumed that our "experiment" will fail, or that we don't have decades under our belts when it comes to raising goats.

And if you recall, my "experiment" is INCREASING production.


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## MayLOC (Sep 20, 2006)

Lady Marion said:


> Mnt. Mama,
> 
> I don't understand it, either, and I really felt bad for you.
> 
> ...


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

Yep, it is not actual "grass feeding", nor is it an economical choice for weed control. I expect to work a whole lot harder than before, growing good forage, and that will be the challenge. I refuse to starve any animal, I assure you.

My goats right now produce about $130 worth of product, more if I consider value added cheese, every week. We consume it all, one way or another. this is a lot of money for me to save for the family. I spend some of that on the alfalfa, but I won't drop that. That really isn't a bad return, considering I am not pushing for the high yields as in the past, and the goats are keeping good condition and actually improving in health (Thanks to the probiotics, copper, etc.). So, I really don't need them to be eight star milkers to reach my goal.

I have been raising goats for a long time, have had them for about two decades in all, but am new to my region, so the copper/parasite issue had me blind-sided. That is changing. Now add this to the learning curve, LOL! I hope those of you who have been successfully raising those star milkers can offer some advice now and then on such things as forage choices for protein content, or can I feed cow peas, or have you ever fed sweet potatoes...someone on the Saanen list enlightened a few of us about the dangers of too much cabbage and broccoli, of all things! 

So, no matter what the management preference, there is so much to be gleaned from the experience of others. I'll never forget Copper Penny's valuable advice about the Copasure, which others also echoed. I think it can make the difference between culling a goat and having her thrive. I could not believe the difference in Glory's eyelids and gums!


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

Wow MayLOC! You have come far! What a great and inspiring story. I deduced right away that my dd had allergies, but I'm certain that had I not started working right away to minimize her problems, we would have gone down a very scary pathway. It turns out that my daughter is allergic to alot of vaccine components- thank God we didn't and won't vax. 

In addition to formaldehyde, DMDM Hydantoin, sulfates, chlorine, "fragrance", polyester, new fabrics, carpet, OSB/plywood, and most paints... my dd is allergic to corn, wheat, rye, barley, oat, cow milk, egg white, garlic, celery, tomatillo, sulfites, avocado and green beans. She also is sensitive to non-rangefed domestic meats.

Its been such a huge learning curve for us as a family. She is my firstborn, and this is NOT how I imagined my family would start. I'm a little terrified to have another child and go through the mystery again. For now, we all stick to her menu plan to keep things simple and safe. And the rotation diet seems to be important for her not to sensitize to yet more foods.

Thanks for sharing your story with me. I hope your kids continue to do well.


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## MayLOC (Sep 20, 2006)

thanks mtn.mama. And I wish you luck. It brings tears to my eyes to think of all the babies/kids/adults going through the *heck* we did and being sent from one dr. to another even alt. drs. and nobody had any answers. It was internet research that led us to test for the allergies/intolerances. I can't imagine the state of both of our sons' health had we not discovered what we had those years ago. I know it will take time, but I hope and pray that he can regain the good health--that he never really had. 

I hope to have one more child--which would make 4. It makes my husband nervous to think about from all we went through those 4 yrs. But I think of it as...think how much better we off now and how much more we know and how much more prepared and proactive we are and how much that would benefit another child and is benefiting our whole family now and forever more.

good luck to you; I love to hear stories like yours of those getting it figured out. I used to frequent psych. kids and such forums and always wonder how many needless sufferers were out there. Your daughter has a great mom!

oh, and we asked about allergies from the beg. of my son's life but were always told no way by all the specialists! it finally took an open minded dr. who signed for all sorts of different out of ordinary testing before coming to some answers.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Lady Marion said:


> Mnt. Mama,
> 
> I don't understand it, either, and I really felt bad for you.
> 
> ...


A much more reasonable post, yes it's the alfalfa and yes it's the copper. This is a far cry from your original post, and that was the point of what you percieved as redicule. So now the true facts are, you bring forage to your goats, and use alfalfa, your soil is poor, you are in a drought so in reality your goats get little if anything from their own grazing browsing. Through bolusing you have your parasties under control and with the use of alfalfa for their calcium and protein they need your goats have never looked better. This is pretty typical of what happens when you join a good forum learn about copper and either move to a better mineral or bolus, learn how important calcium in the form of legumes is for your goats. We see this miraculous turn around over and over on forums with this new way of thinking about raising dairy goats, eye on the alfalfa and not on the grain. 

Now when you do find a source of calcium and protein we can use insetad of alfalfa for our high production does, share it, right now I am growing comfrey and yes the rabbitt forum I am using to grow out grain free rabbits to feed for BARF had a very unexpected thread on what is in forage, trees and plants around the farm.

UCN had an excellent article this last month about the different qualites of trees that can produce 50 tons of fresh greens for the goats instead of hay, most very high in calcium and protein. I am even thinking about putting in for a grant for the study of this. 

You can google Bubba Bob on here and Bob of Thornberry VIllage (Bob Hayles) Jasper, Georgia the article is in the pickensprogressonline.com and I have the actual citation on acrobat readerhttps://share.acrobat.com/adc/document.do?docid=c5485496-ec79-4d4b-bc03-f2fc32faafec

second page I can't get to load on there but I do have it with the condition of the animals ....you can search him on here and other forums with his out there ideas on starving his goats into living on his land. Usery prices for his milk, with nothing going back into the animals. Weston Price fueling his fire to proceed as he did, even with us challenging his ideals...lets just say we were right as his animals were auction on the court house steps last week, not all of them making it to the auction. Sad...and why we all do get more than a little crazy when we see unproven methods discussed on forums that are used by new people. Vicki


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## XCricketX (Jun 7, 2006)

My children have come a long way too from removing certain foods. 

My son was self mutilating his forehead and causing it to bleed at 33 months old... he would constantly scream, and I could never take him out in public. My daughter was given "regressive" as part of her autism. She would forget things over and over and over and over again, and she couldn't speak.

When we started GFCF and then finding out about soy and other things causing reactions in them, they did an almost 100% turnaround!

My daughter started speaking when we realized that the eggs she so dearly loved to eat, came from chickens fed soy. We put her on free-range/soy less chicken eggs instead and now she is talking! It was all within a week.

I'm so happy with the progress they've made! We are now enrolling my 9 year old son into college for his computer programming abilities.. YES COLLEGE! He can speak quite clearly, and even sit in a classroom setting if need be. This from a little boy who I was told would NEVER go to school or even speak.

Cricket


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## XCricketX (Jun 7, 2006)

Interesting about the trees Vicki!

My goats eat sassafras trees, dogwood, and CO spruce a lot out here.. I can see the tree possibility.

Cricket


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

MayLOC- Indeed. Thus far I haven't found the western medical community to be of much help... but my chiropractor got me off to a good start. We're trying another ND next week... a consult to get me in the best shape possible to start another life. Here is a link to a video I made about the tool my chiro gave me for testing foods and substances and fabrics... [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsXRonRpFic[/ame] It may not be the path for you, but it has helped us avoid alot of pitfalls and given us strength to try new things. I especially like how it helps me through the unknowns, like additives in supplements, grocery shopping and eating out.

Cricket- that is so awesome about your kids! It is so incredible to me the damage that food allergies can do. What a breathless transition for you! Have you been to http://healthy-family.org/ ?


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## XCricketX (Jun 7, 2006)

No.. haven't been there before.. looks interesting. I've got it bookmarked! ^_^

I'm on the GFCFKids yahoo egroup.. it's been a great resource for us! That is how I found out about the soy-fed chicken eggs.

Cricket


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## LaManchaPaul (May 21, 2008)

Sorry MtnMama. That U-tube video is hokey as H _ L L !!! Watch it again and cover up the âfoodâ with your hand and watch the lady swing her other hand in the direction that she wishes the crystal to swing. 
Paul


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

Like I said, maybe it isn't YOUR path then. But that is my video. I made it. Its real and it really works.... on the same principle as dowsing for water.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Can the crystal be hung from a stationary object? Then you would know you aren't affecting it's swing.


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

No, you have to hold the string in order for it to operate. If you suspend it, it won't move.


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## deafgoatlady (Sep 5, 2007)

mtn. mama. That is great that u did this. Becuz I used to take care of my cousin that is austic and I wish that I did use grain free for my goats but i didnt realize it. I am glad that u are doing this. And also I am starting to wondering if grain free will help the TB horses becuz one of them is really hyper and cribbing really bad and the grain will make him more hyper.. I am just curouis.. But that is great that u did it. But did u get the feed custom made??? I was wondering how much did u put in the custom made becuz I am thinking about doing that..


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

deafgoatlady-
I haven't mixed the winter goat feed yet. This summer (as always) my goats have mainly free-ranged. But I've replaced their feed on the milk stand- switched slowly away from a barley-oat-corn-kelp-molasses-alfalfa pellet mix to all alfalfa pellets. They also have free choice mineral salt.


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## deafgoatlady (Sep 5, 2007)

Oh that makes sense now.. Well I just dont wanna to have seperate bags all over the places. I hate that part. I can get flax, boss,beet pulp, loose minerals, kelp and rice oil and alfafa pellets. I can get those. But not sure. I have no idea what is millet. I have never heard of it . Sorry.. I wish that I knew about it and My cousin will act better. I know she did get better when i change her diet into CFGF diet. But she is back home and now taken away and now she is with her uncle. And her uncle is MAKING ME SO MAD!! He wants to put her on ADHD medications like to keep her CALM DOWN! UUGGHH. That is sooo bull$%#@!!!! I gave up on that family. They r so stupid and jealous of me. I dont care anymore. I am just curouis about ur grain free becuz of the horse issues. And I am just curouis. I cant help wondering how much of protein will that be if i use those products..


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

Yeah, I do hate that part. I just brought home a bunch of 55 gallon and 40 gallon drums so that I can mix feed and have things put away, kind of. Right now there are probably 10 open 50 pound sacks in my pantry. Annoying to say the least. I think dietary changes are totally worth a try, especially documented stuff like GFCF and autism. Maybe the grain has the horse too hopped up...
Millet is an African grain, the main component in commercial birdseed. The USDA website has a tool to figure the nutritional components of single foods... its how I plan to figure the ration of each part of the mix. But I think alfalfa pellets and BOSS will probably be the biggest parts with some millet mixed in and supplemented with flax, kelp, beet and salmon.


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

mtn.mama said:


> Like I said, maybe it isn't YOUR path then. But that is my video. I made it. Its real and it really works.... on the same principle as dowsing for water.


I'll have to file the crystal idea along with the magnetic energy plates that realign the farm's energy and magically cure the hypocacemia problems we had at that time. Or the biodynamic "remedies" that involve cows horns, stuffed with herbs and stored in a earthen well for a number of months, only to be ground and fed at certain times in the moon cycle...


All this discussion really comes down to making sure that the animals basic needs are being met. Now that lady Marion has told us more of what she is feeding her animals we can see that she has a source of dependable calcium, protiens and carbohydrates in her animals food and it isn't just high sugar grass, then I can that her animals would probably do o.k. Using alternative sources of feed is o.k., as long as the basic needs are met for dairy goats. 

Browse is a great source of micro-nutrients and protien and can even be a good source of calcium for the goats, since many species are very similar to alfalfa in their nutrient profile. The goats in deborahs website look like they need carbs and a copper suplement to me. They are all small and thin. Looking at that I can't believe she doesn't have problems. In any case, she isn't inspiring me to follow her management.


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

"All this discussion really comes down to making sure that the animals basic needs are being met. Now that lady Marion has told us more of what she is feeding her animals we can see that she has a source of dependable calcium, protiens and carbohydrates in her animals food and it isn't just high sugar grass, then I can that her animals would probably do o.k. Using alternative sources of feed is o.k., as long as the basic needs are met for dairy goats. 

Browse is a great source of micro-nutrients and protien and can even be a good source of calcium for the goats, since many species are very similar to alfalfa in their nutrient profile. The goats in deborahs website look like they need carbs and a copper suplement to me. They are all small and thin. Looking at that I can't believe she doesn't have problems. In any case, she isn't inspiring me to follow her management."

Jo, I have to really agree with you about those scrawny goats. That is definitely NOT my goal, and from what I can tell, she does not feed any alfalfa or grow any nutritious browse as I intend to do (once I address my soil infertility issues) When I step out and call my goats, they look up and start running to me. Their nicely full rumens bounce as they run. Their are perky and happy. It does my soul good to see them like that, and I'll work extra hard to KEEP them looking like that even as I meet my family's particular health needs.

On that note, I got the nicest e-mail from the lady in NM with the many acres of free range browse. She does feed alfalfa. I learned a whole lot from her just in one e-mail, and I can see that while I may have to do something completely different in MY region, there is no reason I can't do this and do this well.

Mnt. Mama, you lost me on the crystals, but hey, to each his/her own, LOL! I'm glad you are going the extra mile to heal your daughter.

Oh, as for HORSES, without starting a new thread, let me just say my farrier, a barefoot specialist, is very much against feeding horses grain unless they have such poor quality grass that they cannot keep condition. Even then he prefers good hay, but we couldn't even find THAT this winter! My horses have been grain free since the grass greened up, and they have never had a better hoof health check-up as they had this time! One of our horses had a clubbed hoof and deformed frog (from the previous owner's neglect and improper trimming). Part of his problem had been he was fed grain and his hooves grew too fast and this one did so abnormally. He is making great progress now on carefully controlled grazing!
__________________


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## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

I went to the other ladies site and they had a video about thier cheeses, which included some glimpses of their goats browsing. This ladies goat look much better, healthy, shiny coats ect. Kind of neat. I think you can see a difference that the alfalfa makes for them.


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

Jo,

I did not see the video. Thank you for the validation. This is a lady who obviously does it better. I am glad I'm already stubborn about holding onto my alfalfa. If only I could find it locally. My old neighbor Helen Snyder told me to look for peanut hay, but I have not found any of the perrenial kind, just the tops of the peanut crops.....and I lost BIG on buying that because it was so moldy!!  I did NOT feed it to my goats once I discovered that. This is NOT the kind she meant! I would love to grow my own perrenial peanut hay. I might look into that.

I know now to go to the NM lady if I need advice. As for the other gal, well, perhaps she should stick to financing, because her goats look riddled with at least coccidia, don't you think? Or, maybe it is just a "heritage breed" she picked up somewhere from some Third World country? LOL! 

Now, I have to watch myself. I wouldn't want to get too nasty toward her.....Bottom line, I am glad SOMEBODY is doing this and doing it well. Now I can move forward with confidence.

It may not be popular, but like I have heard it said, any dead fish can go with the flow.....It takes a live one to swim UPstream! Oops, there I go again. Don't want to fan the "flames" again!!!

:cowboy:


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

Vickie,

There were so many posts, I just now found yours on trees. I would be interested in learning that as well.

As for the alfalfa, I was wondering if my heavy use this winter due to lack of hay might have caused my copper problem to be worse. Alfalfa takes up lots of molybdenum, and who knows how mush is in the fields in Seskatchewan!! I am not likely to stop feeding them the cubes until I find something that will be adequate, so the bolus idea is absolutely a godsend. This is something we never learned in 4-H or the show circles in PA, but perhaps because we had less trouble? Still, i wonder what happened to a well-grown doe we had (plenty of grain and alfalfa in our feeding back then) whose knees and pasterns suddenly turned crooked in late pregnancy. Is THAT copper deficiency?

In defense of Weston A Price, the foundation does not go around telling people to starve their goats, so this guy was doing this on his own, obviously wanting the best of the Omega 3 balance for himself without practicing true animal husbandry, which means having a passionate interest in their condition and comfort.

One more thing. What got me the most upset was that nobody seemed concerned about Mt. mama's child and HER needs. We should find ways to help her achieve her goal even if it seems a bit foreign at first. Alaska is a tough call. Aven the moose die there from copper deficiencies! We should be giving idea that support her specific needs.

What also got me upset was the misrepresentation of my own problems as directly from not feeding grain, when I was not even on this forum to speak up! No name mentioned, thank goodness. I sell my kids, and don't need a bad reputation. Maybe it was a misunderstanding, I guess I can grant that.

You wouldn't believe how many problems I had BEFORE when I did give grain, because in my region, the grain is usually pretty bad, and the feed mixes I was getting were making them very sick, especially from local mills or TSC's "Dumor".....which did LESS for them. "Did more" sickness. Recall the Dairy goat forum where I finally found a way to mix my own? Then after Glory got sick last year, a Southern States rep came out and tested all my feed, to make sure it wasn't that. He then arranged for special order of their goat pellets at the dealer. He's coming out after Labor Day to test my soil and help me out there as well.

So yes, I am working hard to make this work. Sometimes I think TOO hard. but once I do get things in place, I can sit back and be PROUD that I have a thriving dairy goat herd in a VERY difficult region. Others here gave up long ago due to heat and parasites. I do NOT want to give up my girls!!!


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## MayLOC (Sep 20, 2006)

Lady Marion said:


> One more thing. What got me the most upset was that nobody seemed concerned about Mt. mama's child and HER needs. We should find ways to help her achieve her goal even if it seems a bit foreign at first. We should be giving idea that support her specific needs.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

*This was my fist post:*

I recently went *grain-fre*e with my goats as well. Last year we had our first grass-fed *stee*r, and we noticed such a marked improvement in our health, we decided not to eat any more confinement/grain based meats. Next came switching to pastured eggs, which were very expensive, so we got our own chickens. They do get some grain, because they are not ruminants, but they also get plenty of bugs, weeds, grass (I see them eat green grass), vegetable scraps, and I am going to add some fish meal to their diet to increase the Omega 3 content of the eggs.

It only made sense that our dairy was also *forage based*. Why should we miss the opportunity for more beneficial milk? for a breakdown of the difference between grain fed milk and 100% grass (*or forage)* fed, see this link:
http://www.eatwild.com/articles/superhealthy.html

The reference to the article must be where folks misunderstood in the first place, but I can see now that I used the correct term for my goats from the start. I was beginning to wonder!

At least we are clear on it NOW. We eat GRASS FED beef, PASTURED eggs, and FORAGE based goat milk. (Alfalfa is a forage, too!)

I have not found any past threads on "grass fed" anything. Can you provide a link so I can read what you mean?

Oh, even 100% grass fed beef operations tend to separate the age groups, and put finishing steers or nursing cows on the better grass. 100% Grass fed dairy operations do the same. Non-lactating critters can be on less nutritious grass with no loss of condition. There is a lot of attention given to the growth stage and quality of the grass. So, the grass fed beef or dairy farmer becomes a "grass farmer". You could say I must become a "forage farmer", ha, ha!

Back to the fish, though. When your goat eats salmon, Mt. Mama, does the milk taste fishy?


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

LM- they haven't eaten it regularly enough yet to find out! My dh is a little hesitant about fish for the goats/chickens because the taste might change... like eating coastal ducks/eggs, or eating bears on berries vs. fish. So we'll see about it. I don't plan to use it at the sole or major protein source... but I'll let you know how it turns out.


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

I would be interested, thanks! I actually know a cattle farmer who mixes ground catfish with his minerals! His beef sells for high retail prices in Charleston, though, so I don't think his animals taste fishy! Of course, it is not a major feed component, and it is a heap better than chicken manure, like some farmers feed.

I even met a beef farmer who fed the sifted hay from the cattle's own manure! He wanted to get every bit of feed he could.  Yet how often do we hear folks complaining about how feedlot cattle are raised. Do you know 60% of them have livers so abscessed they cannot be used?......Michael Pollan certainly did a great service to consumers to try to bring feedlot horrors to light, didn't he?

Hey, no wonder the beef from the store tastes so awful...........


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

I have a 4H book that says to feed chicken litter to dairy goats...


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## Lady Marion (Aug 14, 2008)

YUCK!!! No way!!!


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I don't get into feeding flesh to herbivores. I'll believe the whole deer-harpooning-fish story when I see it.


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

I kinda agree with the "I'll believe the whole deer-harpooning-fish story when I see it." Although I do believe what the poster said about the goats stealing their salmon - not sure that was even on this thread. 

This thread has gotten interesting, although for me, I think the more natural the feeding is, the better for the goats. Grain free would go hand in hand with natural. In the wild they may get some grain, as in the seeds from grasses, but overall I don't think they would get much. The goats in the wild feed their young on a forage type diet without grain and continue till they are weaned. Domestic goats being milked for long periods and expecting them to continue and give more and above what the kid needs would require more nutrients, but not necessarily from grain. But I am a novice and that is just a gut instinct.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Our goats may be related to wild caprine living in the high rocky mountains by a genus, but no more so than we are related or could live a life like the wild apes. Our goats are domesticated by hundreds of years of selection. When you want to go 'natural' with your goats you had better understand the genetics, right or wrong your animals came from. Once you close a gate behind your goat it is no longer a natural life. Thousands of acres in which to roam is a natural life with 50% or higher of mortality in infants, wild animal kills etc...survivial of the fittest is a very hard pill to swallow for most.

For my farm where the girls must pay their way it is going to be much more managed than someone who only milks for house milk. Once again if your goal in goats is grass fed, hay in the winter, than milk meat goats. Or find a dairy goat that is just bred with no thought behind pedigree for more milk or more kids, just good feet and legs and lots of body capacity and width to have enough space in their for a huge rumen. If you look at the website with the skinny goats, they are not only skinny but frail and with a narrow skeleton, without width for that expanding rumen or deapth with good feet and legs to get out and forage, no way can you do this, without the animals health suffering. So in reality even doing all grass correctly you need selection, breeding and heavy culling to only keep animals that thrive, and milk in this condition. Nothing natural about that either  Vicki


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

I agree, knowing what a goat needs is important. But I disagree with the theory about apes because I don't believe we came from apes. But goats did come from goats. Having a working knowledge of the basics that a goat needs, a person can pick and choose what they feed them and come out with healthy goats. I completely believe that goats do not need grain to remain healthy and fit. I also see nothing wrong with giving goats grain in small amounts, that is each goat keepers choice.


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## mtn.mama (Apr 20, 2007)

I don't know if we came from apes or not. But I do think we're closely related. And I don't see any reason we couldn't live that way if we wanted to. Have you ever tried to live off the land- out in the elements 24/7? I have. Its totally doable.

As far as domestic goats being so far removed from wild goats... what about all the feral goats in the world that thrive- like in New Zealand for instance? They certainly don't get grain. Yet they are able to overpopulate quickly, just like humans.


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

Ah but Vicki had a good point _"Once you close a gate behind your goat it is no longer a natural life. Thousands of acres in which to roam is a natural life with 50% or higher of mortality in infants, wild animal kills etc...survivial of the fittest is a very hard pill to swallow for most."_ A lot of goats died until they adjusted to their new life. However, I came across this article about tannins and feral goats (as we know, feral was domestic at one time and then reverted back to the wild)... it's quite interesting. http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/lrrd6/3/1.htm Today those tannins would more than likely kill our domestic goat today.

I do think that what we know about goats today, if we choose to not feed grain, then we need to know and understand what we can feed them instead. There are alternatives.


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## MayLOC (Sep 20, 2006)

mtn.mama said:


> As far as domestic goats being so far removed from wild goats... what about all the feral goats in the world that thrive- like in New Zealand for instance? They certainly don't get grain. Yet they are able to overpopulate quickly, just like humans.


simply continuing in pleasant conversation here...

I would say sure there are wild goats, just as there are wild horses and ect.... However I doubt those wild goats look or milk anything like what most of us have in our barns or expect from our goats, and I doubt they live very long lives. 

And along the same lines. Somebody mentioned the negatives of graining horses also. Sure most pet/non working horses will not miss it and will become the fat loathes that most of them are. However just like a working goat--pregnant/lactating, a working horse requires those extra calories from the grain. 

Now sure there are wild horses all over the place, and they get along fine w/nothing supplemented. But nobody is using them hard either.

wild goats vs. typical dairy goats...really there is no comparison. We have bred them for years and improved their genetics and they are a different animal with higher production and higher needs. It is not possible to expect them to live like a wild goat, as they no longer are one.

my thoughts.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

MayLoc, wild horses commonly go 20-30 miles per day, they work hard. That said, some horses (like TBs) just don't hold weight well and often need something richer in calories than grass- and yes some horses are worked harder than a wild one, like maybe working cow horses. Extra calories can be through grain, oil, beet pulp etc. I would be more against graining a horse than a goat. It doesn't usually do them good.


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## MayLOC (Sep 20, 2006)

S.G.

Sure.
Although I would be quite surprised if wild horses regularly traveled 20-30 m./day. And whatever they travel it is normally at a walk as they graze and centered around there watering holes. And yes hands down working cow horses work far harder than wild horses and most others. ANd they also live a better life and outlive the wild ones many times over. They are used hard and cared for the best they can be, because they are just that...working horses and needed...just like the working goat vs. wild goat. It's all along the same lines...working and higher needs.


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## XCricketX (Jun 7, 2006)

Working to survive in nature is "less work" than being raised domesticated? O_O

Cricket


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Mayloc, yes they can even be forced to travel further than that to find adequate food. It depends on the location, but in the more arid places, they have to travel widely to find the food needed to sustain them. Horses are born to MOVE!


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## MayLOC (Sep 20, 2006)

I am aware that so called "wild" horses have to get out and "move" and travel about to find food and water. Which of course also comes down to the land management. I am also aware that it is no picnic for these horses to live and survive. My point_ is _they are not expending the energy of a truly working horse and thus (like a working dairy goat== our original thread topic here) have different nutritional requirements.

a baby, vs. a teen, vs. a young adult vs. an athlete, vs. an elderly sedentary man.

a goat kid, vs. a bred dairy doe, vs. a bred boer doe, vs. a dry doe, vs. a lactating dairy doe, vs. a lactating boer doe, vs. a wild goat, vs. a buck

a colt, vs. a young working gelding, vs. a bred mare, vs. a "wild horse" vs. a stalled young trail ridden only 2x/month mare, vs. a 20 yr. old retired gelding.

Of course the list goes on and on....my only point _is_ they are all different with different energy outputs and nutritional requirements. I think we can _all_ agree on that point, can't we?


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## smwon (Aug 16, 2006)

mtn.mama I'm wondering how it is going now?


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