# Do you intervien in the fight



## Curtis B (Aug 15, 2008)

Yesterday evening my neighbors dog got into the pasture with the flock, and my pack went on the offensive. It really was no match for my four, but it did get a chunk out of the ear of one of mine. By the time I got there they had it cowering against the fence with the neighbor on the other side yelling for them to get back. I backed them off and and lifted it over the fence to the neighbor. It got me thinking though as I doctored my dogs ear about when and if to intervien when they are doing their job. In doing what I did, would I be discouraging the protection? Mine got their good job pats as we walked away, and at no point got repremended by me, but it has me wondering.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Curtis B said:


> Yesterday evening my neighbors dog got into the pasture with the flock, and my pack went on the offensive. It really was no match for my four, but it did get a chunk out of the ear of one of mine. By the time I got there they had it cowering against the fence with the neighbor on the other side yelling for them to get back. I backed them off and and lifted it over the fence to the neighbor. It got me thinking though as I doctored my dogs ear about when and if to intervien when they are doing their job. In doing what I did, would I be discouraging the protection? Mine got their good job pats as we walked away, and at no point got repremended by me, but it has me wondering.


I bet your neighbors will take better care of their dog now....hopefully lesson learned.

I too would have patted my dogs on the head and told them what good boys they are...and if I see it happening and the neighbors sees it and it's their dog...I may try to help their dog...it would be hard not too with them right there screaming....but in no way repremend them for doing their job...let that be a warning for the neighbor...there may not be a second chance....but that's just me.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Curtis B said:


> In doing what I did, would I be discouraging the protection? Mine got their good job pats as we walked away, and at no point got repremended by me, but it has me wondering.


I sincerely doubt that your dogs will hesitate to attack an intruder just because you broke up a fight. Especially since they were winning. if anything, I think it might increase their confidence.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Curtis B said:


> Yesterday evening my neighbors dog got into the pasture with the flock, and my pack went on the offensive. It really was no match for my four, but it did get a chunk out of the ear of one of mine.


I can't begin to tell you how many cats my dogs have killed over the last few years. And they even killed another dog, not to mention all sorts of wildlife. They seem to prefer to rip apart cats though. Once there is an altercation going on, No, I don't interfere. I don't want to be accidentally bitten, and you never know if the other animal has rabies or something. Skunks are the worst animal that they have "taken care of" so to speak. 

I don't know what the right answer is, but I do know that LGDs will kill stray animals that wonder onto their territory. And that is what they are created to do. The GPs have never been aggressive to humans here, but we did have one that would bark at strangers. They love kids, all kids, and there is only one guy I have ever seen them "watch closely" with distrust. I just make sure they all have their rabies vaccines and tags, and are confined to our property.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

No, I doubt your intervention will phase them in the least. All that happened in "dog language" was Alpha came in and took control(by getting the pack off) and then physically making the intruder leave(handing it over the fence). 

It may have phased them if you pulled them off and then allowed the intruder to stay, but you made it leave. You simply took control and finished the task.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Curtis B said:


> Yesterday evening my neighbors dog got into the pasture with the flock, and my pack went on the offensive. It really was no match for my four, but it did get a chunk out of the ear of one of mine. By the time I got there they had it cowering against the fence with the neighbor on the other side yelling for them to get back. I backed them off and and lifted it over the fence to the neighbor. It got me thinking though as I doctored my dogs ear about when and if to intervien when they are doing their job. In doing what I did, would I be discouraging the protection? Mine got their good job pats as we walked away, and at no point got repremended by me, but it has me wondering.


The law here allows you to kill the dog. Depending on whether your neighbor needs educated, you have options.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

If my dogs are keeping another dog away from my property or running it out of goats I'll stand back and let them rip. They are doing their job. Even when they fence fight neighbor's hunting spaniel when it gets out of its cage and comes to my fence and raises cain, I allow my dogs a good amount of time to terrorize it through the fence, then I tell everybody (including neighbors dogs!) GET OUT ENOUGH in my worst booming voice, lol....include a lot of snarling and roaring....and they stop. 

As for fights between my own males or females - which can happen with certain ones that I strive to keep separate because they just don't like each other, period, I intervene immediately. I've had people see me do it they go into shock practically....lol... one guy said he couldn't believe how I (a mere 5'3") could get in there, grab a collar and break it up.... I used to panic over this but not anymore, I just stay calm wait for the right moment dive in and pull apart.....snarling and growling and baring teeth....this gets their attention, not yelling, because I'm the alpha dog here (grin). 

Worst fight I had was when my Kangal locked on to one of my Pyr females, it took me almost 2 minutes - that is an eternity in a dog fight - to pull her off. Messy. They both got ripped up bad. But back to the point: my dogs fight: I am in there immediately breaking it up. Bad dog comes to fence: I let mine blow off some rage before I tell them to chill out. Works for me.... I also praise them for protecting.

LGD's btw for those new to them, fight.....they can be food possessive or dog house possessive or just over protective over something and it is part of what they are.....some breeds worse than others, some dogs worse than others. It is part of what they are so its something that everyone should be prepped to deal with and try to be as calm as you can - and of course, be careful. ;~) You run more than one, its inevitable, someday eventually they'll scrap. Some worse than others.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

It certainly won't hurt to demonstrate you have control of your dogs. You can't really train instinct out of any breed, but you're right to want to guage your reponce correctly. Which in any other type of dog training you did so why would a guard dog be any different? LGD's (that I have encountered) if nothing else have above average intelligence.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I've never had to intervene. At least not yet. I believe the dogs would call off if I asked them to~ but they know I have cats so don't mess with them and so far no one elses dog has had the nerve to get in with them. They have taken out a few racoons and possums~ a skunk was obviously involved at least once...but no dogs have gotten on this side of the fence~ their presence seems to keep them on the other side.

Now when we very first moved here~ before we got any livestock or put up any fences my sisters small Yorkshire terrier wondered into my neighbors goat pasture with the great pyr that later became the mother of our first great pry. Thats how I met that neighbor. I was frantically driving around screaming for that little dog when the neighbor came up out of his pasture holding that yorkie up by the scruff of his neck! Apparently he just barely snatched that little dog before his great pyr caught him! And he wasn't too dumb a little dog~ when he spotted that great pyr he made a bee line for the human stranger or not! LOL! Only reason he survived the encounter!


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## Curtis B (Aug 15, 2008)

Apparently I took enough time to get there. Neither of their dogs have been back since. It's interesting to watch them get within 20' to the fence, mine take off raising H##L, and the other dogs make a beeline away from the fence. They used to have barking wars through the fence, but not any more. For the record, I wouldn't call the dogs off anything other than someones pet, ****, yote, or cat (yes I know most cats are pets, but i have lost too many turkeys to them, I won't kill them, if they get away good for them, if not :shrug its not leaving alive if I can help it.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Put an off switch on them or something. Sometimes the other animal can't figure out how to get out of the fencing and may need help, as the neighbor's dog did. If you can teach them to return to you and sit, you can lead the extra dog out the gate. It's no different than "that'll do" for a herding dog.


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## earthkitty (Mar 3, 2011)

Goatress said:


> LGD's btw for those new to them, fight.....they can be food possessive or dog house possessive or just over protective over something and it is part of what they are.....some breeds worse than others, some dogs worse than others.


I know of a lady who flew over two Maremma pups from a working farm in Europe. She kept them as pets, in the house. They were exotic, you know.

Well, one of them bit her nose off. OFF. I don't know where those dogs went, but I heard that story and just shook my head. Poor dogs.


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## landdweller (Mar 12, 2011)

i have 4 large dogs 2 mastiffs 2 saints they will not let another dog into our house or property unless my husband or I bring the other dogin. When we got our first saint the lady brought him to us. We had a growl from our english mastiff and a snap at him but when she left out the door they were all fine because my husband introduced them one at a time. Our neighbors moved YEA!!!!! THey had 2 ptts that would try to terrorize our big dogs through the fence until my mastiff put her head through the privacy fence then they ran cowering. Our dogs are not fighters if we take them places such as the park they will play with all the other dogs etc but they know at their house they are the protectors and guardians. Our dogs know to LEAVE our cats alone but they will chase off all strays. Its weird how theyknow which cats are ours. They are only doing their job. Iwouldnt break them up if a neighbors dog came onto our property, because they arent doing anything wrong.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Maura said:


> If you can teach them to return to you and sit, you can lead the extra dog out the gate.


LGDs? They aren't exactly obedience champions. "Come" and "sit" seem to only work when you have food in your hand. And even then it takes a few moments for them to decide if it is worth the energy to come get the food.

Herding dogs like aussies, GSD, etc are known for obedience skills. LGDs aren't.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

mekasmom said:


> LGDs? They aren't exactly obedience champions. "Come" and "sit" seem to only work when you have food in your hand. And even then it takes a few moments for them to decide if it is worth the energy to come get the food.
> 
> Herding dogs like aussies, GSD, etc are known for obedience skills. LGDs aren't.


I whole heartedly agree....


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

mekasmom said:


> LGDs? They aren't exactly obedience champions. "Come" and "sit" seem to only work when you have food in your hand. And even then it takes a few moments for them to decide if it is worth the energy to come get the food.
> 
> Herding dogs like aussies, GSD, etc are known for obedience skills. LGDs aren't.


So, work with your dog. If he/they will sit for you at a distance this will still work as a stop. It doesn't have to be a long sit/stay, just long enough. And another, and another,... It may be tougher to teach than with a border collie, but it can be done.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Maura said:


> So, work with your dog. If he/they will sit for you at a distance


Do you have LGDs? They aren't like other dogs.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

mekasmom said:


> LGDs? They aren't exactly obedience champions. "Come" and "sit" seem to only work when you have food in your hand. And even then it takes a few moments for them to decide if it is worth the energy to come get the food.
> 
> Herding dogs like aussies, GSD, etc are known for obedience skills. LGDs aren't.


 I whole heartedly disagree, I've seen Pyr's put a border collie to shame! Have you ever trialed a LGD?


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Ross said:


> I whole heartedly disagree, I've seen Pyr's put a border collie to shame! Have you ever trialed a LGD?


They are wonderful guardians, kind to children, good to young animals, very calm, Ferocis to predators, easy to walk until they decide to lay down and rest, never pull the leash, etc, but I have never had any of ours experts at obedience. In fact, I have to offer food to get them to sit. I've never seen any of them that I would call obedience trained-- mine or other peoples. The ones I have seen are not dogs that I would consider "trick" dogs or even trained dogs. They are all about instinct---- food, and sleep.

There was a lady on the boards the other day that said her GP would play fetch. That was unusual.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I would say those dogs simply lacked and serious opportunity to show their ability. Still dog breed and their dominant traits do vary from place to place. Too bad.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Ross said:


> I whole heartedly disagree, I've seen Pyr's put a border collie to shame! Have you ever trialed a LGD?


Have you? I know there are LGD breeds that have obedience titles, but they are not "performance dogs" by nature. I bow down in awe to anyone who can put a CDX on a Pyr or Anatolian. It can be done, but with a wholly different approach than you would use with a Border Collie or a Golden. 

My Akbash dog will sit on command (eventually), give "high fives" when he feels like it, and comes when called about 90% of the time. He's fairly obedient for an LGD, but he has a wholly different mind than my GSD. My GSD does what I want her to, because I want her to. In her mind, "because mom wants me to" is a good enough reason to do anything. My Akbash dog does what I want him to do when he knows it's in his best interest to do so. He couldn't care less what I actually WANT. What *I* want is not his problem.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

> Have you? I know there are LGD breeds that have obedience titles, but they are not "performance dogs" by nature. I bow down in awe to anyone who can put a CDX on a Pyr or Anatolian. It can be done, but with a wholly different approach than you would use with a Border Collie or a Golden.


 That's what I said isn't it? We ran a boarding kennel for 40 years I've seen plenty of LGD breeds as companion animals and even trial dogs. I agree the approach must be very different as it would be with a Labrador retriever or a Pom or a husky all trained with a very different approach or emphasis to a BC or a shepherd. I'm not saying folks should even attempt an obedience certification with one, unless they want to. But they could expect more then the few here seem to. Nice Curtis can control his dogs enough to do as he sees fit with an intruder on his land when he's there. I assume the trespasser wouldn't survive if he wasn't there, as that's the lgd's role.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Ross said:


> I'm not saying folks should even attempt an obedience certification with one, unless they want to. But they could expect more then the few here seem to.


Well, it's not really an LGD's job to be an obedience star... their way of thinking and solving problems independently doesn't require training by humans, and they're not usually required to go out and about in society. So, snappy obedience is not usually needed. Having said that, I'm all for basic training and socializing to humans. It creates a solid foundation so that there's good communication between dog and owner, and the dog isn't a sociopath. Even if the dog lives with livestock 24/7 and has little contact with society, he still has to go the vet, perhaps the groomer, etc. I am lucky that my Akbash was socialized and given some basic obedience before I got him; I can take him pretty much anywhere and he will behave politely. Not that he really goes anywhere, but it's good to know that a trip to the vet won't be a nightmare.

If I got another LGD, even though his role would be that of a livestock guardian, I would still take him out as a pup for socialization and basic obedience. Because of my particular situation, I need a dog that is reasonably well-behaved and socialized. Others may not need that.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Wolf Flower said:


> ; I can take him pretty much anywhere and he will behave politely.


Oh yeah, Ours are good in public too. I take them to the groomer, to the auction barn, vet, to Mc Donalds for a hamburger treat, and I always take one if I go to a big city for some reason or another just because they make me feel safer. A couple of years ago, I took my male GP shopping on Black Friday in the city with me,daughter,and DILs. All over the city there were reports of cars broken into with packages stolen. Nobody bothered our van or packages. We even left the windows open about 6" for extra air for the boy even though it was already under 30F. (They like it really cool.) But even with the windows hanging open that way, we didn't loose one package or anything. And the dog loved it because he got 2 sausage biscuits, then later 2 hamburgers. He likes to go bye-bye to Mc Donalds.


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## Curtis B (Aug 15, 2008)

mekasmom said:


> Oh yeah, Ours are good in public too. I take them to the groomer, to the auction barn, vet, to Mc Donalds for a hamburger treat, and I always take one if I go to a big city for some reason or another just because they make me feel safer. A couple of years ago, I took my male GP shopping on Black Friday in the city with me,daughter,and DILs. All over the city there were reports of cars broken into with packages stolen. Nobody bothered our van or packages. We even left the windows open about 6" for extra air for the boy even though it was already under 30F. (They like it really cool.) But even with the windows hanging open that way, we didn't loose one package or anything. And the dog loved it because he got 2 sausage biscuits, then later 2 hamburgers. He likes to go bye-bye to Mc Donalds.


Off topic, but Dairy Queen is the favorite with our pack, and they give it free if the dog is with you.:icecream:


As far as control, all of mine can have a mind of their own from a distance, and even then it depends on the situation. Recall works only if their minds are not into something, it is something I have allways said I need to work on with them. The incidant that started the thread, I didn't even attempt to break it up until I got there.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I replied it wouldn't hurt to show you can control your dogs. Nobody can break up a dog fight from a distance with any breed of dogs! 
I'm well known for not using LGDs because of the associated work/cost/liability etc.. One of the things that can get you into legal problems is having a known threat on your property. People can sue you if you have an uncontrolable dog in short. 
What you did, and proved you can do, is control your dogs, AND you're a reasonable person by intervening on your neighbors behalf. They (your dogs) aren't a hazzard, they're guard dogs you use to protect your flock, and you can prove you're still master of your property. Nothing could help you more. 
Not only was your neighbors dog in the wrong, you're a great neighbor for helping them correct that trespass (what reasonable person would allow a neighbors dog to be killed right in front of them?) 
So long as your dogs don't leave your property and cause damage, you're 100% in the right and can prove it now. 
Slick lawyers look for tiny litttle cracks in a reasonable person's actions that might suggest liability. I'm no lawyer but IMO you covered yourself extremely well. Hopefully you're still on good terms with your neighbor this incident can demonstrate your good will and abilities if trouble ever comes your way from another trespass.

Again I don't think you're hurting your dog's instinctive behavior and I do think you're very much better for doing what you did.


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