# Went target shooting



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

over the weekend. I am a terrible shot with a pistol. Be better off to use the thing to beat an intruder with instead of shooting at one. 

With a rifle I am a crack shot. No problem shooting squirrels or groundhogs at 100 feet with a .22. But I couldn't hit a head sized pumpkin at 70 feet with a pistol. 

I just can't focus on the target or keep it in line with the sights on the pistol. When I close my left eye (shooting right handed, well gun held in both hands, right hand operating trigger, left on the hammer, double action pistol (if I got that term right, can never remember)) I still don't come near enough to hit a man sized target. The shot keeps being left and low. It's all over the place when I keep both eyes open. A couple of times it was my fault for jerking the gun instead of squeezing the trigger. 

I am seriously depressed. I've never failed to hit a target with a rifle. I have better aim with a slingshot. So why can't I hit a stupid pumpkin with a pistol? I mean other than beating it with the butt! I'm not even that bad with a bow.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

I'm curious to know what barrel length the pistol you were shooting has. It makes a big difference.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Have you fired from a REST to see if the sights are properly aligned?
Have you fired from a REST to see if the particular LOAD is accurate?
Have you fired from a REST with different loads?

See where I'm going here? 

The first step is check the sights and load.
The next step is STOP shooting at 70 ft (nearly 25 yds) and START shooting at about *20 ft.*

Concentrate on accuracy *up close* before worrying about longer distances

Focus on the SIGHTS instead of the target, and especially the FRONT sight

Another thing is be CONSISTANT in how you hold the gun.
Any slight change in your grip will change the point of impact.

From what you described,, you may just be "flinching", by tightening your grip in anticipation of recoil.

Try several *different loads* for accuracy, and if you can, adjust the sights for the most accurate.
Shoot with both eyes open, and your brain will automatically align the sights with the dominant eye.

In a defense situation, you *NEED your peripheral vision*, so dont train yourself to cut it in half


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## PistolPackinMom (Oct 20, 2012)

I find my accuracy is much better when I use instinctive hand/eye shooting, rather than using the sights. My dominant eye is opposite of my dominant shooting hand, so I always used to end up low and left, much like you. Using my hand/eye method, I can make head shots, which aren't usually possible for me if I use sights.

Another question to ask is what caliber are you shooting? Double stack or single? How is your grip? How often do you practice? How far are you from your target? Is it possible you're limp wristing? Are you shooting a DOA pistol?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

if you need to shoot some one with a pistol , it will be at 21 feet or around there any farther and the justification part gets harder.

don't aim at the head , aim at the middle , center mass always ,it becomes habit 

since you are using a double action revolver your *home work is* to fill the cylinder with already shot/empty casings , then practice squeezing the trigger all the way thru while aiming at a target , concentrate on the perfect trigger squeeze while keeping your sight picture , and stop for now thumbing back the hammer , this exercise will strengthen your trigger finger and help you to work on the muscle memory to isolate the trigger finger from squeezing your hole hand.

by the way low left hits for right a handed shooters is often a symptom of squeezing the hole hand when pulling the trigger 

also try this both eyes open if you can ,in all shooting we like both eyes open , but especially in pistol 

when you get the muscle memory and strength it will get much better 


if you can shoot well double action , just pulling the trigger you will really bring home the accuracy single action when you thumb back the hammer


if i could start every new pistol shooter on a double action 22 revolver like a smith 617 , where they could work thru the trigger pull and sight alinement before moving on to the shooting of anything larger and have them fire on empty brass concentrating on the squeeze 60 times a day for a week , then return to the range shoot 120 rounds , then do it again for a week , and return to the range for 120 more i think marked improvement would be seen at each range trip, and could move up quickly to a larger cartridge


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

It was dh's .30 carbine. Same rounds he was using and hitting the targets although not very well. New to us pistol, first time we shot it. The range has benches at 70 feet, we'd have to shoot on our property to be 25 feet from the target. Ruger Blackhawk, I think 7 inch barrel. Revolver, forgot to mention that. Don't know the loads on the rounds. He reboxed the ammo and tossed the cardboard box. Hard to find .30 carbine rounds so we had only the one brand.

I would have practiced with the 9 mil (which I really wanted to) but he forgot to pack it. I was busy packing food.

I know I need more practice. Never had much use for a pistol other than shooting varmints in a trap. I've been using a rifle since I was about 8.

ETA, I get confused about the double action/single action. This one has to be cocked before you can fire. Not like the .22 pistol in which you just pull the trigger.

Yeah, home defense in this house would be about 10 feet range. It's not a huge house. If I miss an intruder at that range I deserve to have my pistol taken and get shot with it.

Yes I should be using the .22 a lot more. Ammo is so much cheaper.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Ruger is a single action....if you're used to an autoloader-holding the Ruger properly is what's throwing you off.You should just practice with Ruger empty,keep both eyes open and concentrate on front sight covering target...Single actions require a lot more practice to become good with...some of the best SA shooters I've watched could hit anything within 50' by "hip shooting"...only took them years of practice and 50k+ rounds


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I keep thinking single action means all you do is pull the trigger. Kind of confusing because it refers to the gun's action, not the shooter's action. 

The little .22 is a revolver also. The only semi auto I've used is the 9 mil and I've fired only about a dozen rounds through it.

Problem with the sight covering the target, I see 2 sights and 2 targets. Then when I close my left eye I am pointed no where near the target. How do you know which one to cover or should both sights cover their respective targets? (although I couldn't get coordinated enough for that) 

I didn't have this much trouble with a shotgun when I did a little skeet shooting!

Sounds like I need to check some ranges to see if they have instructors available. I need lessons.


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## WoodTick (Oct 16, 2012)

Danaus29,

Honestly, I think you would be better off becoming a crack shot with the .22, then progressing to the 9mm, and leave the .30 carbine pistol to your husband. 

My wife is an excellent shot with her .22 semi-auto out to about 50 feet, and pretty good with my .45 acp to about the same distance. Her only reason for shooting a pistol besides target shooting is to kill a varmint attacking our animals, or to stop an intruder in our home. So for her it is better to practice and become very proficient at ranges of 10 feet out to 50 feet, than worry about longer ranges that she will likely never use.


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## poorboy (Apr 15, 2006)

Those 30 carbine Blackhawks have MAJOR muzzleblast, without really good ear protection It'd be awful hard to keep from developing a bad flinch..Lots of those have been passed on to someone else for just that reason..:yawn:


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

to check eye dominance, hold both hands out open fingers together put your thumbs together make a triangle with the opening between your hands make it big enough for an egg to pass thru the space you leave but not much more , now pick a target , a light switch or door knob is good look thru the hole between your hands center the target , now close your right eye , did the target leave the center , then try the other eye , if your target stays centered between your hands that is your dominate eye 

single action means the trigger preforms a single function , to release the sear and let the hammer drop

double action , the trigger moves the hammer back and releases the sear 3 actions 

start with the smaller lighter recoil caliber , because even a more experienced shooter can get the shakes after a number of heavy recoiling shots.


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## Silvercreek Farmer (Oct 13, 2005)

+1 on the muzzle bark of a 30 carbine revolver. The round was designed to be used in a rifle and uses a slower burning powder than most pistol cartriges. Translation: Much of the powder is burned in the form of flash and bang in front of your face after the bullet has already left the barrel. If you or your husband are interested in handloading, you could easily tame the rounds down to a reasonable level, even almost like a .22 if desired.

Could you see the impact of the misses? I've shot at informal targets with no effect, and figured I was missing, only to walk up and find the jug, can, fruit ect full of holes, obvious hits that didn't even move the target.

Shoot some paper targets starting at 10 yards and moving out to 25 rested and then off hand to isolate ammo, sight, and flinching issues. I shot a buddy's 9mm at a watermelon a while back from 10 yards or so and couldn't hit it despite being an acceptable pistol shooter. I am pretty sure I was either hitting slightly above or below, but the backstop we were using didn't really show impact so I couldn't tell where I was hitting, but I am 100% sure it was just a sight issue that I could have compensated for if I could have seen the hits. 

I never thought pistol ammo could make that big of difference in off hand accuracy at ranges under 25 yards. Boy was I wrong! I was using some name brand ammo in a 9mm that would only hit a standard LE sillouete once or twice out of 8 at 25 yards. I switched ammo and had no problem keeping all the rounds in the center mass. I would have liked to have seen some super slow motion footage of those inaccurate bullets, they were probably tumbling or flying in some crazy spiral pattern.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I would have liked to have seen some super slow motion footage of those inaccurate bullets, they were probably tumbling or flying in some crazy spiral pattern.


More likely they were leaving the barrel at a different time during the recoil cycle

It's VERY important to *try* *different loads* in ALL firearms, because most will show a definite preference for one over another


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Ok, right eye dominant, at least today. 

Yes we had ear protection. I use ear plugs even when practicing with the .22. But I never get a chance to put in the earplugs when groundhogs are raiding my garden.

GCP, thanks for explaining it. Makes more sense now.

I could see where the rounds were kicking up the dirt around the pumpkin. That's how I know I was left and low, except on the one where I know I flinched. That was high and right.

Found the box for the ammo. Mfg is Aguila, hecho en Mexico. Load is 110 grains.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

For a right hand shooter, low and left placement are also signs of recoil anticipation (low) and trigger push (left).


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I think I do tend to push the gun to the left when firing. With a rifle it's not that big of an issue because the other hand is a counterbalance. I'll make sure to practice just pulling the trigger back and try real hard not to push it to the left. I'm sure I have some recoil issues to. That gun has a bit of a kick. 

Thanks, that gives me some definite issues to watch for and work on. 

Henry makes a lovely rifle that shoots a .45 long colt. Nice little deer hunting rifle.


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## Silvercreek Farmer (Oct 13, 2005)

Danaus29 said:


> Henry makes a lovely rifle that shoots a .45 long colt. Nice little deer hunting rifle.


I love pistol caliber lever guns. Light recoiling, more punch than a pistol, point blank trajectories good for 100-150 yards, and if you reload, they can be dirt cheap to shoot. I've got a Rossi 92 in 44 mag that I'm pretty sure would put a hole all the way through most critters.


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## unioncreek (Jun 18, 2002)

If your going to have to use it for defense your shots will most likely be at less than ten feet. Start shooting with both eyes open and at ten feet. As you get better start moving back from the target. You might try shooting left handed or change the way you hold the pistol.

Bob


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

hold your hand as if the pistol is in it. pull your trigger finger as if releasing the trigger. do your other fingers move? if so practice the motion until the other fingers do not move. 

beware, developing bad practices or inforcing them is bad, no matter what distance you shoot


Do researce (i'll try to post some info later) or get a coach. shooting is a developed skill, contrary to thought shooting is not an inbreed craft.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Fred's Riflemans Page

Here's some great tips from Fred..


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

ace, yes my other fingers move. Thanks for the tip. 

zant, bookmarked the page. Thanks for posting it.

unioncreek, no not mostly for home defense. I would like to use the .22 pistol for squirrel hunting and varmint elimination. And I would really love to try deer hunting with a pistol. Got a couple places I can go but got to get much much better at hitting my targets.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

ace, found a great way to practice the movement! I use my water mister/sprayer and hold it like a pistol. Getting better at not moving my other fingers. I'm practicing with both hands. Never know when I might have to shoot with the left. It does make the hands sore if you're not used to it. If there was a store that had water pistols still I would buy a few of those.


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## kycrawler (Sep 18, 2011)

have your dh load the ruger for you 3 live rounds and 3 fired cases , fire at target you will see your flinch and what is hapening to pull low and left . same drill can be applied to rifles and auto loader pistols load a snap cap in the magazine inplace of a live round


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Won't it hurt the revolver to be dry fired like that? I know my SW9VE can be dry fired, not sure about the revolver.


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## Steve L. (Feb 23, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> Won't it hurt the revolver to be dry fired like that? I know my SW9VE can be dry fired, not sure about the revolver.


If you're referring to kycrawler's post, he's not talking about dry firing. 
Dry firing is when you drop the hammer on an _empty _chamber. 
But, dry firing shouldn't hurt your Ruger.


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## kycrawler (Sep 18, 2011)

nope wont hurt it the fired cases act like a snap cap


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

I am not aware of any modern centerfire arm that has a problem with snapping on an empty chamder. to my knowledge it was a problem only with poor tensile strength in some old firing pins. 

*specific* knowledge otherwise would be appreciated.


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## wogglebug (May 22, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> I'll make sure to practice just pulling the trigger back and try real hard not to push it to the left.


DON'T DO IT!
DO NOT pull the trigger.
SQUEEZE the trigger.
It should come as a surprise to you when the firearm fires.
When it does, come as close as you can to still holding on target for a second or so AFTER IT HAS FIRED.

And never touch a .30 carbine pistol. It may be a pretty wimpy long-arm cartridge, but it's way up the top end as far as handguns goes. Hits WAY hard on both ends of the firearm, and flinching from it would be no surprise for most any shooter.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

wogglebug said:


> DON'T DO IT!
> DO NOT pull the trigger.
> SQUEEZE the trigger.
> It should come as a surprise to you when the firearm fires.
> ...


Might you explain your definition of "pull" as different from "squeeze"

squeeze to my knowlege involves the thought to most beginners of tightening the grip which is wrong communication of thought.

anyway, pistol shooting for the majority of trained people envolves "breaking the shot" as movement of the wobble is toward the center of the target. and is not so much the "suprise" associated in rifle shooting where the sights are held on the target (by experienced shooters). In other words a pistol shooter does not have the steady hold afforded a rifle shooter. the trigger release has to occcur in a more predictible time frame. That time frame being the thought: "my sights are moving toward the center of the target" release the trigger at my estimate of when my sights will travel to the center of the target. definately not during the time frame of my sights have allready passed center and are leaving the center of the target. That coupled with "accept the wobble" are usually the taught "modern methods."

pull, draw, release, being "relative" modern terms and having different meaning from "pulled a shot" that you may be thinking about


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Why shouldn't I touch a 30 carbine? They are made to be shot. Yes it has a touch more kick than the .45 firing the cowboy rounds but it's not as bad as the .454 zombie rounds. 

I never expect to be surprised when I fire a gun. There is a problem IMO when you are surprised when it fires. Means you aren't prepared for the shot. 

I guess I'm having problems with the pull vs squeeze terms too. Pull, I thought, implies a more forceful motion, maybe jerky. Squeeze, I thought, meant a gentle action in which the trigger finger comes back against the rest of the hand.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I never expect to *be surprised* when I fire a gun. There is a problem IMO when you are surprised when it fires. Means you aren't prepared for the shot.


You should always "be prepared" once you start the trigger SQUEEZE, but if you're "surprised" when it actually fires, you won't *anticipate the recoil,* and therefore *will not flinch.*

You should be so *focused on AIMING* that the sound of the gun going off "surprises" you


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

I've heard the advise on releasing the trigger so slowly that one can't predice the sear point, its a "surprise". its beginner advise. experenced shooters know exactly where a tuned (polished, and trued sear surfaces) trigger will sear.

refer to single and two stage triggers

not to flame anyone, but by "experienced" i refering to someone that has shot 5 or 10,000 rounds through a firearm up to 100,000 an experienced target shooter has on a firearm.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

I finally got the whole trigger pull thing when I heard it described as "pressing the shot"
The way you hold a pistol makes a big difference too. It's hard to move one part of your hand without other parts moving too, that's why light triggers typically are easier to shoot accurately.


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