# Can my 5 month old LSG be rehabilitated?



## Miss Ma’am (7 mo ago)

I got a livestock guardian puppy to protect our goats, not really understanding how to train them. I unfortunately paired him up with our friendly Rhodesian Ridgeback/German shepherd mix, who never attacked our animals before, but is very prey-driven. Unfortunately the Rhodesian Ridgeback mix killed two goats that escaped their pen. I don’t know if the livestock guardian puppy was involved in the killing but he did NOT have any blood on him when the goats were killed and the Ridgeback was covered in it. A few weeks back, I do know that the puppy was at least munching on one chicken that they killed a few weeks ago. I’m a little suspicious about a cat that went missing but do not know if the dogs got it.

I have rehomed the Ridgeback, and I’m now wondering if my five month old Anatolian/Akbash mix can be rehabilitated from the bad things he learned, and still be a good LSG. If he was present or even involved in the killing of a cat or chicken, will he now be a killer? 
Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated.
The puppy has not really bonded with the goats even though I’ve had him in the pen with them several times while I supervised. I think this is because he was mainly bonded with the other dog. Now that the dog is gone, how can I help him bond with the goats, and teach them not to harm the chickens or barn cats? I’m willing to put in the work, I just don’t know what the steps are. And I want to make sure he’s not too far gone with what he’s experienced so far.
I now understand my foolishness. We are new to goats, and in the past I’ve had guard dogs protect our children and property from predators and strangers. I’m learning from my mistakes, and hope to move forward with a lot more understanding.


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## BadOregon (12 mo ago)

You need to find a person experienced with LGD breeds that has their own and can guide you. They are handled and trained a great deal differently than either pets or person guardians. Did you get him from someone who actually had LGD's that were working dogs, or was he a product of someone having some of that breed they sold as LGD's?


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## Miss Ma’am (7 mo ago)

BadOregon said:


> You need to find a person experienced with LGD breeds that has their own and can guide you. They are handled and trained a great deal differently than either pets or person guardians. Did you get him from someone who actually had LGD's that were working dogs, or was he a product of someone having some of that breed they sold as LGD's?





BadOregon said:


> You need to find a person experienced with LGD breeds that has their own and can guide you. They are handled and trained a great deal differently than either pets or person guardians. Did you get him from someone who actually had LGD's that were working dogs, or was he a product of someone having some of that breed they sold as LGD's?


He was sold to me by an actual rancher who has these dogs for his own large herds and they have great working lines. As he said they were not bred for beauty but for the work they do. So I know he has a great bloodline. Now I have to find someone who knows how to actually train that kind of dog! Not very common in my area


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## Miss Ma’am (7 mo ago)

Miss Ma’am said:


> He was sold to me by an actual rancher who has these dogs for his own large herds and they have great working lines. As he said they were not bred for beauty but for the work they do. So I know he has a great bloodline. Now I have to find someone who knows how to actually train that kind of dog! Not very common in my area


But would you say he can still be trained to protect the herd, despite having been present or involved in killing a chicken, maybe a cat, and watched goats be slain?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Call the guy you purchased him from. Admit you messed up. Ask for step by step instructions.


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## Miss Ma’am (7 mo ago)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Call the guy you purchased him from. Admit you messed up. Ask for step by step instructions.


Thank you. I did reach out to him, and he very kindly explain where I went wrong. He said that I should give the puppy another chance, but if he kills again not keep him. Sounds like I need to do some research myself. I’m not sure this particular rancher has the time to walk me through it.


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## BadOregon (12 mo ago)

Basically you probably need to start from the very beginning with him. Since you no longer have the other dog to influence him, you may be able to fix it. Note I said "may" not that you could. He is still young enough to relearn. As you said, do some research. I wish you luck.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Miss Ma’am said:


> But would you say he can still be trained to protect the herd, despite having been present or involved in killing a chicken, maybe a cat, and watched goats be slain?


He is still a very young pup, and could probably be trained. Turning him loose with just any random dogs, isn't training. Ideally, he should spend a year with older experienced LGD's. These LGD's don't just wake up one day, with all of the know how they need to guard a flock. They learn it as pups and then pass it on. There is a little instinct involved, and a lot of conditioning.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

It would be great if you could get him a working buddy. 

Our biggest mistakes in establishing working dogs were leaving the dogs unsupervised, and using only one dog.

Your pup is from working lines, so he stands a chance at rehab, IF you set him up for success. Work with your breeder, get another dog, and keep a close eye on those dogs until you're sure they will protect, rather than harm, the livestock. If your breeder is not available, find someone in your area who has successfully used LGDs. 

I'm so sorry you had the rocky beginning with the pup, but <shrug> we all make mistakes.


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## altair (Jul 23, 2011)

Tarma, Katerina, and more trainers can help on their group: Farei Kennels Shepherd Training (mn.co). Though I have no LGD, I have been following them for years and am a member.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

It is my strong hope that someone reads this and changes their mind about getting a LGD. 99% of the time, they are a bad idea. Many reasons. Just don't do it.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

haypoint said:


> It is my strong hope that someone reads this and changes their mind about getting a LGD. 99% of the time, they are a bad idea. Many reasons. Just don't do it.


I agree, they are not for inexperienced beginners. And young pups by themselves are not a good idea for anybody.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

haypoint said:


> It is my strong hope that someone reads this and changes their mind about getting a LGD. 99% of the time, they are a bad idea. Many reasons. Just don't do it.


I beg to differ.

99% is a high number. I personally know of <counting on fingers> 7 locals who, like us, rely on LGDs to protect their stock and land. Not saying there isn't a heckuva learning curve - you absolutely must do your research. 

But once you know what you are doing, and you put in the hard work at the front end, LGDs are incredible protectors. 

I would not be without them.

That said, I will repeat: You absolutely MUST do your research. Intensive research.

And you must do the work of working with the dogs. They are not a "plug and chug" appliance, but living creatures that, while they do not take a one-down position to the owner, will work alongside you as a partner on your farm. 

But you have to do your part.

Do not simply turn a pup (or an adult) loose with your stock. Did I mention that you HAVE TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK?

Well, if I didn't say it, I'll say it again: LGDs require different training than other dogs, but they do require work. Don't treat them like obedience dogs, don't treat them like protection dogs, don't treat them like house pets. 

Respect them, work with them, and don't boss them around.

Handled properly, LGDs can be the best asset you'll ever have on your homestead.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Pony said:


> I beg to differ.
> 
> 99% is a high number. I personally know of <counting on fingers> 7 locals who, like us, rely on LGDs to protect their stock and land. Not saying there isn't a heckuva learning curve - you absolutely must do your research.
> 
> ...


Of those folks that were able to properly train their LGD, how many have had neighbor conflicts due to the LGD constant barking? If my 99% seems high, I'm including the consensus of the neighborhood.
Maybe a Lama or donkey would be less of a learning curge?


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I do have an LGD (Valentina is a Bulgarian Kurakachan.) She was purchased as a pup in 2013; and it didn't take long for me to discover the type of training I had used with my prior canines would not work with her. (I started a thread here about her and got a great deal of guidance/information that was helpful.) Since this is the only LGD I've ever had, I cannot say whether or not all LGDs are like this one; but what I can say that I believe would apply to all LGD breeds is that you MUST LEARN TO COMMUNICATE with them "as partners". This is not to say you are not their boss!  What I am saying is that, whatever you are attempting to teach at any given time, must be done from an ASSERTIVE, NON-EMOTIONAL, CONFIDENT state of being! (Example: My LGD had a duck egg in her mouth and was carrying it out of the barn to enjoy eating. I believe she was less than a year of age at this time. I stopped her, had her sit and then put my thumb and forefinger into her mouth around the egg. I did not...not...attempt to remove the egg from her mouth. We both just stared at each other for a few minutes; then she opened her mouth and let me have it. That is when I took it out of her mouth.) It was a "mutual" decision that I get that egg; and this "mutual" decision-making process is what helped create an LGD who respects my decisions even when she doesn't agree with them, which is a must with these dogs!

It has been asked in here whether or not an LGD who has killed some animal on the farm could be trusted to protect that type of animal. I can give you a definite yes! I have free-ranging animals (goats, ducks, geese, chickens, guineas) and I saw her grab a baby guinea, chomp once and swallow it. If memory serves me correctly, that was when she was still under a year of age. Now the entire flock of guineas can fly hundreds of feet over our fencing and land right next to this LGD without her being disturbed at all and without her attempting to hurt them. (At the same time, were some flying predator swooping on our property, she would be barking and jumping at them.)

So what I think the bottom line is on these LGD canines is the importance of the human owners being sensitive to the importance of that type of dog being given time to "think" for itself as to what you are wanting it to learn. Time and patience pays off big time with these dogs!


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

haypoint said:


> Of those folks that were able to properly train their LGD, how many have had neighbor conflicts due to the LGD constant barking? If my 99% seems high, I'm including the consensus of the neighborhood.
> Maybe a Lama or donkey would be less of a learning curge?


Dogs bark. ALL dogs bark. That is what keeps predators away. 

In my "neighborhood," the neighbors -- to a farm -- appreciate the dogs barking. In fact, one neighbor family appreciates the LGD tendency to "expand their boundaries" (so to speak), as it has saved the lives of some of their calves.

Llamas and donkeys bring their own set of woes and worries. They are more likely to kill stock they are supposed to protect, among other drawbacks. Sure, there are many who successfully utilize camelids and equidae, but that is specific to their farm and their stock.

IME, the vast majority of farms in this area successfully employ LGDs. To assert that they are "a bad idea" is to do a disservice to the dogs and the people who work with them.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Pony said:


> Dogs bark. ALL dogs bark. That is what keeps predators away.
> 
> In my "neighborhood," the neighbors -- to a farm -- appreciate the dogs barking. In fact, one neighbor family appreciates the LGD tendency to "expand their boundaries" (so to speak), as it has saved the lives of some of their calves.
> 
> ...


Maybe a lot of heartache can be prevented by FIRST asking all the neighbors what they think about you getting a dog that barks all night, every night. Many "homesteaders" live on smaller (under 10 acres) parcels and have non-farming neighbors. "People who work with them" requires people that know how to train a LGD. Most folks getting their first LGD don't have a clue. You do a disservice to the breed by pretending that there isn't a serious downside to a large barking dog roaming the neighborhood all night.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

haypoint said:


> Maybe a lot of heartache can be prevented by FIRST asking all the neighbors what they think about you getting a dog that barks all night, every night. Many "homesteaders" live on smaller (under 10 acres) parcels and have non-farming neighbors. "People who work with them" requires people that know how to train a LGD. Most folks getting their first LGD don't have a clue. You do a disservice to the breed by pretending that there isn't a serious downside to a large barking dog roaming the neighborhood all night.


Whatever.


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