# Can you help with setting up a website?



## clovis (May 13, 2002)

Okay, I hate to admit that I am computer illiterate.

I would like to set up a web site to sell about 30 different items, with the hope that it will grow to 60 items in the next year.

I am beginning to think that an independent web site is the best alternative for me.

I would like to know how to create and build a web site, in step by step format, that explains things in plain English.

I went to our library, and the it seemed that the books were either too indepth, out dated, or not applicable to my needs.

I would like to have a template system, where all I need to do is upload the photos and add a description. I think I would like to buy the software, instead of renting, I think.

I would prefer to do this the right way, the first time, if possible. While I don't have tons of money, I would rather pay for decent stuff that works right the first time, instead of trying to cheap the project to death. Does that make sense?

Any advice offered is greatly appreciated!!!!

Know if there are any good step-by-step web sites that can tell me how to set up the site?

Thanks!!!!
Clove


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## rean (Nov 18, 2008)

Hey Clove,

Look at purchasing Macromedia Contribute. Adobe bought them out a couple of years ago. I suggest Macromedia because it will be an older yet not too old version, and is very easy to learn. 

Rean


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## OrganicCat (Sep 23, 2008)

You don't need to do any setup or be very computer illiterate at all 

Check out Etsy: http://www.etsy.com/

It's pretty easy to setup a small "shop" where you can sell personal handcrafted items (they specialize in it). It's kinda like eBay except there's no bidding, you just set your price and get orders. WAY easier than setting up your own site, especially if you're no computer guru. If you can outgrow Etsy, that means you should be able to hire a web designer, so you shouldn't have to worry about it


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

Pretty easy to set up a blog on www.blogger.com. You could have a daily reminice on the item you wanted to sell.


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## How Do I (Feb 11, 2008)

If you find a web host with Fantastico, you can have a very generic store up in about 15 minutes. I'd spend some money to have the template professionally designed. You can usually find designers offering their services in the forums of whichever cart you choose. I think there are addons for most to make the stores SE friendly. Here's three choices I have in my cPanel:


http://shops.oscommerce.com/

http://www.zen-cart.com/index.php?main_page=showcase


http://www.cubecart.com/demos/

If you install these through Fantastico, you get the bare basics. Most the stores you see through the links above (demos/live stores) have been professionally designed, but it would give you an idea of what you could do. These are free to use, unless you want to remove their copyright from the pages, then you would need to buy a license. I believe they all operate that way.

Want to learn html? - I'd recommend that site, even though I originally learned html from this site. You need to also think about branding when selecting a domain name, unless you already have one picked out. I don't know what exactly you sell, but I'd try to also get your niche keyword inserted into your domain name somehow.


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## Thales (Jan 24, 2009)

You could go with Wordpress, plenty of great templates out there and the WP e-Commerce plugin is pretty slick and fully featured.

Another great option is Magento. I've used it previously for a few different store fronts and it seems to be the best open source option out there. There are inexpensive hosting companies out there that should fit your needs, try looking here . 

If for some reason you are still having trouble shoot me an eMail, I've got a server that I host some hobby and family sites on that I could provide you with space on for free. Only thing you would need is a domain name.

-Thales


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## lharvey (Jul 1, 2003)

Clovis

Your question is simple in theory but complex in answer.

People always ask me "how much will it cost for you to build me a website?"

My standard answer is. How much does it cost to build a house. Do you want windows, doors, bathrooms, kitchen?

In other words the more you want to do the more it costs to do.

Can you learn it? Yes. I did and I too am old. ;-)

The books that you would get at the library go into depth because if you don't know how it works, you can't make it work. 

Yes, there are tons of wysiwyg editors out there. They work great until a page breaks. If you don't know how to fix it then you are SOL.

Word press IS NOT the way to go if you actually want to sell stuff. It is a blogging type of affair. However, having said that, if you know the codes behind the pages, you can make WP do some amazing things.

If you are going to sell stuff on the Internet from your site you need to also make sure you have a security certificate in place so that when customers place an order, their transactions are secure and that any information transmitted between you and them via the website is encrypted. You will find that you will not make sale one unless you have a certificate in place. There are those however that will give you personal information via a order form when it is not secured. Lord have mercy on them.

Just remember above all things, do not buy by price, buy by functionality. Just because it is free doesn't mean it is any good.


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

Thank you for the input. 

I guess I was hoping to buy a software thing-a-ma-jig, have it shipped to my home, install it without problems, and input my pictures and copy.

Then find a good site name, and get it bought. And then find a host, which I am guessing I would need. And maybe one of those certificates in place, or use paypal to accept payments.

Then I could press F7, control, delete, snap my fingers and say Abbracadabra three times, the web site would be created, and I would have money flowing into my paypal account as fast as I could spend it.

I could then zip around town in a new Cadillac CTS-V living the high life, while hundreds of underlings filled all those orders...

The Wall Street Journal would be calling to do their rags to riches story about a small town guy made big, and I would have my picture on the front page in one of those cool dot photos they have. The first line would read "You would never know Clovis is a self made millionaire, many times over, except for the 2009 Cadillac he drives."

On a serious note, can it be that easy to create a site? I don't have a big budget, but understand the importance of value.

I don't think I want to learn html, whatever that is. (No, I really don't know.) I do want to be able to fix and make changes to the website as we add products.

Is this possible at all?

Thanks for bearing with me...hopefully my ignorance will give you something to laugh about.

Clove


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## How Do I (Feb 11, 2008)

Well, you could pay someone else to develop/maintain the site, but wouldn't that cut into your huge profits. You may have to at least put the 2009 cadillac on hold. HTML is easy. I'm almost sure there are some 10 year old webmasters out there somewhere, probably younger. The gist of it; most everything you post on your site is in tags, you just have to learn what the tags mean and where to use them. It would be next to impossible to make changes to your html unless you had a basic understanding or unless you use a WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) editor. Even with a WYSIWYG editor, it's still wise to know the basics of html.

You would want to select the domain name that you want to "lease" (around $8.00 - $10.00 year), then have the domain hosted (anywhere from $4.00 - $100+ a month), many that can pull the domain fee directly from your paypal account every month. You can start out with a free template, even if just to play with while you learn html. Throw it on a subdomain of your domain and exclude the bots while you learn. When you feel ready to proceed you can set up your real website through the main domain name. Without a WYSIWYG, you'll probably want to use a FTP client like CoreFTP to upload and download your files. I learned html using notepad and SmartFTP and if I had to do it all over again, that's what I'd still start out with. Frontpage was a waste of good money.

Regarding the links I posted referencing the shopping carts. I believe they are coded with PHP, another whole code altogether. And not as easy to learn as html, in my opinion. You can easily set up a simple store using just html and use a Paypal checkout if that's what you wanted to do.

The bottom line is if you don't want to learn, you're going to have to pay someone. Unless you have a friend or relative that will do it for you. Just one more hat to wear.


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

Thank you for the reply. I really do appreciate the time and help! I do feel like I am learning something!

Again, thank you to all, and I really mean it.

Clove


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## lharvey (Jul 1, 2003)

Clovis.

I just sent you a PM.

L


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

I always tell beginners to start with a web template. Actually, starting with a template is a smart way for anyone to begin work on a web site.

A web template is a generic web site that was created with easy modification in mind, using a graphic html editor and image editor. You should look for a template with the same basic theme that your own subject matter is about. For example, if you want to run a virtual pet supply store, you should look for a template with a pet theme.

Web templates not only save you a mountain of work, but they also take advantage of the programming and artistic skills of professional web page designers. Web templates typically vary in price from free to $50, but most are modestly priced. You can search at Google for free web templates.

http://www.google.com/search?q=free+web+templates

To give you an idea of how it works, recently I had a local western folk music singer/writer ask me to do a web site for him. He wanted a cowboy/western theme, so I found this template for $2.95.

http://www.countrymanordesigns.com/lonesomecowboy.htm

After customizing the page to his specific needs, it looks like this.

http://desertbreezenv.com/

Note how the cowboy hat next to the menu moves with the cursor, then "hangs your hat" on the page you select. All that was already programed as part of the template, making that advanced feature simple to implement. Clearly, it was well worth the $2.95 investment.

The day may come when you want to design your own unique page from scratch, but you should start out customizing templates.


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## Thales (Jan 24, 2009)

lharvey said:


> Clovis
> Word press IS NOT the way to go if you actually want to sell stuff. It is a blogging type of affair. However, having said that, if you know the codes behind the pages, you can make WP do some amazing things.


Given that WP has been consistently rated one of the best OSS applications since its development it is definitely a great option. The core of the program is a blogging platform but easy to install/maintain plug-ins add extensibility that couldn't be matched by most other platforms out there. 

As far as OSS versus a paid solution, test them both out. I think you'll find that a free program like Magento will serve your needs on a small to moderate scale just as well as something that will set you back a few hundred dollars.

If you are doing this small scale I would suggest going with an open source/free application that has been out there for a while. That will provide you will reliability, a helpful community and some pre-existing things that will save you time. Make sure the back end and administration functions are easy to use, the aesthetics can be tweaked and refined in most programs with relative ease.

As has been suggested, getting an SSL certificate is a must have now. I use RapidSSL and they've been great.

-Thales


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Thales said:


> As has been suggested, getting an SSL certificate is a must have now.


That's another advantage of using a PayPal shopping cart; you don't need to get an SSL certificate. There's a PayPal shopping cart that is free & easy to configure, there are no monthly fees or minimums to maintain the account, and the SSL certificate issues are all handled by PayPal.


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## halfpint (Jan 24, 2005)

Like others have said, what you need depends upon what you want. If you want a storefront for people to be able to purchase, it is much more difficult to set up than a website which just gives information and how to contact you. 

One thing you might do is check with a local school or homeschool group to see if there are any students there who would be willing to get you started. My son started while in high school, and did a few small business sites and such which benefited the customer and provided a learning opportunity for my son. 

Dawn


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## Thales (Jan 24, 2009)

Nevada said:


> That's another advantage of using a PayPal shopping cart; you don't need to get an SSL certificate. There's a PayPal shopping cart that is free & easy to configure, there are no monthly fees or minimums to maintain the account, and the SSL certificate issues are all handled by PayPal.


That's true, but depending upon what application is used determines whether or not having your own dedicated SSL cert. will be necessary. For instance, we offered Paypal payment subscription which offered its own SSL cert. but WHMCS, the system we used for signing up for service, handling support/sales tickets and transmitting vital information needed its own cert. At a smaller level a Paypal's SSL certificate will serve you well enough, but the added expense of your own dedicated SSL certificate will provide an added level of security and even increase sales due to "peace-of-mind". You can grab one directly from RapidSSL or most hosts offer them at a largely discounted rate.

-Thales


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

halfpint said:


> Like others have said, what you need depends upon what you want. If you want a storefront for people to be able to purchase, it is much more difficult to set up than a website which just gives information and how to contact you.


Actually, the PayPal shopping cart I use is menu driven and generates html pages automatically. You just upload the pages and link to them. The html pages handle images (both thumbnails and full sized), product descriptions, prices, and can even calculate shipping charges. When the customer clicks the Checkout button it takes him to PayPal, under PayPal's SSL certificate.

Everyone should try out this shopping cart creating software. It runs under Windows, it's really simple to use, and it's free. Download it here.

http://windowrock.com/cart/paypal_install.exe

All you need is a PayPal account. Here are a couple of examples of an implementation of that shopping cart.

http://audioxclusive.com/panasonicstore/panasonic_video.html
http://www.miadolan-forum.co.uk/shop.html

I strongly recommend a note like the one at the top of the second example, which explains that customers do not need to be PayPal members to make a credit card purchase through the PayPal interface.

PS -- While the shopping cart is 100% functional as it is downloaded, there is a "demonstration version" note at the bottom of each page. You can remove that notation easily, by modifying the page code. When you inspect the code of each generated page you will see a script at the top and at the bottom of the page (that's the text that starts with [script] and and ends with [/script]). To remove the demo notation, remove both of those scripts before uploading to your FTP site.


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

Thank you all for your time!

I am learning...albeit slowly. I am getting a better grasp on what is available, and what some options are.

Again, thank you!!!! Keep the info coming!!!!

Clove


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## Zuska (Sep 22, 2006)

It's worth it to have someone who knows how to build a website do the preliminary work for you and then you can do updates yourself. I have a web designer redoing my website at the moment. She's completely changing the format and it's going to be a work in process for a while. In the meantime, she's shown me how to easily do simple changes like rewording and writing articles for example and I use Filezilla FTP program. Once you get the hang of it, it really is easy. It can be overwhelming doing it all from scratch by yourself. 

You may want to think about bartering with a web person for services or for what you plan on selling. Some will barter. I do a lot of barter, myself. My weblady is bartering her web design for an herbal apprenticeship with me. 

By the way...I started a thread today about my website changes. It's going to be rough going for a while, but you can see the differences in the new pages to the old. The Cedar Mountain Herb School page is the new version. 

Good luck!


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

clovis said:


> Thank you all for your time!
> 
> I am learning...albeit slowly. I am getting a better grasp on what is available, and what some options are.
> 
> ...


You'll also need to have the proper applications to create and publish your web site. You can get everything you need for free though. The things you'll need are:


A graphic html editor, that can also allow you to edit code.
A good image/photo editor
FTP software.
Most people use a commercial product for their html editor, such as FrontPage, Expression Web, or Dreamweaver. However, those are all pricey. If you don't already have a html editor you should consider Kompozer, which is a free editor that looks and works very much like FrontPage. Learn more or download here.

http://kompozer.net/

Most people also use a commercial product for their photo editor. Photoshop pretty much has the market cornered on that, so there's tons of help at Google for Photoshop. The problem is that Photoshop costs about $700, which is cost prohibitive for most non-professionals. However, there is a Photoshop clone available for free. Learn more or download here.

http://www.gimpshop.com/

Finally, you'll need FTP software. FTP stands for File Transfer Protocol, and is the method most often used to copy web pages up to web space for publishing. FTP software is easy to use, and works similar to the way Windows Explorer works. While commercial FTP software is usually modestly priced, it will still set you back about $40. However, there is free FTP software available. FTP commander is very simple to use and meets the needs of all but the most advanced webmasters. You can download it here for free.

http://www.internet-soft.com/DEMO/commanderftp.exe

If you are an advanced user who needs your FTP software to perform advanced functions, such as to change UNIX file & directory permissions (chmod), then you should consider Filezilla. They only real downside to Filezilla compared to FTP Commander is that Filezilla is more complicated to operate. FileZilla is free and can be downloaded at this link.

https://www.ohloh.net/projects/filezilla/download?filename=FileZilla_3.2.1_win32-setup.exe

Good luck!


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## hillbillyacre (Jun 1, 2003)

You may want to check in to this website, www.homepagenow.com . A friend of mine makes/sells purses and other items.... and she has hers set up really nice, and its free. It didnt take her long to set it up. It allows you to upload LOTS of pictures and you can post information on there as well. Here is a link to her page so you can see how she has hers set up....and see if you like the layout of it. **This is NOT to boost her website... just giving an example of the layout on homepagenow**
Her website is:
http://stitchabilitybyangela.hobbies.homepagenow.com/homepage.shtml

hope this helps.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I really like Virtual Mechanic's Sitespinner. It is $50 I believe, and comparable to much more expensive software. You can do a lot with it. It does come with templates, but it's fun to make your own thing. 

I have a couple of sites I made with it

www.naturespets.com

www.naturespets.com/laytonhollow.html


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## XCricketX (Jun 7, 2006)

Hi clovis,

My wife, Cricket, showed me this thread and thought it might be of interest to me. I don't have a log in here, so I am using her log in to post this.

The others are correct, in that, basic html is not that hard to learn and also that if you plan on having your own site, you should at least learn some code to understand how to fix things.

Many of the sites mentioned above use a scripting language call PHP. I use ASP, but work that gets done with either is basically the same. Scripting languages are step above HTML, and they are used to communicate with databases as well as other things. There's really too much to go into about any of these technologies just in one post. Suffice it to say though that they all take some time to master.

What I tell folks who I do sites for is just to do a simple site at first using basically just HTML, and then as their products sell, they can create a budget for more web site additions. I've seen too many people go for the best and then have their site just sit. I don't know what products you sell, but usually folks make products with the fewest parts they need in order to save on costs. Then as the product gains in popularity and demand you can afford to bank against forcasted sales in order to invest in better mechanisms by which to sell that product such as advertising, better packaging, web site enhancements and the like.

You should do the simple site and not stress yourself out on being fancy to attract clients. If you like online payments, go with one. They usually have basic shopping carts that they create for your products. Later, you can get more fancy. Getting a certificate is a smart idea as well, and it serves great as a marketing tool to show people that you really do care about their personal information.

Get a hosting package that will allow you to do both PHP and ASP. For instance, you may find a forum out there that is exactly what you want in ASP, but then you might want to add a blog that runs on PHP. 

Also, by going with just a simple HTML-based site, that will provide you time to explore more options while at the same time accomplish the task of making sales. I should make this clear however, HTML is the internet standard for building web sites, so regardless of the scripting language, you will have most likely have some form of HTML in your site.

Those are just some ideas to think upon while you are exploring your options.

I just got out of surgery this afternoon, so between the severe pain and the pain medication and drowsiness, I tried my best to read the entire thread. I liked a lot of what the other authors had to say. The main thing about web sites is to protect your data by going with reliable services such as registrars, hosts, and technologies (such as blogs, forums, e-commerce, and templates for example). It would not expedite the success of your business if your site is down, hacked, or has broken pages on a regular basis.

Have fun with it!

Sincerely,

Jeffrey J. Law


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## XCricketX (Jun 7, 2006)

This is Jeff again using Cricket's profile.

I thought I would give you an example of what I can do with a forum.

I work primarily with Snitz Forums 2000.

I made a site for Cricket and the family at http://www.LawRunFarms.com a few months ago. When you go there what you will be seeing is two things. First, you will see a modified web site template that I got from here ... http://www.freewebsitetemplates.com/preview/template26 and second, you will see a modified forum that I got from here http://forum.snitz.com/forum/ .

Look closely though because almost all of the content in the site was generated within the forums. I created a test account that I will keep up for just a few days before I change the password. Go here http://www.lawrunfarms.com/login.asp?status=login and use the Member Name *test* and the Password *clovis*. Take a look at the forum titles and then compare them to the site headings. They are the same.

What I did was created a content management system based upon forums software, and I modified it so that it will only accept HTML by certain users. However, regular members can still use forum code to apply formatting. Also, when a member creates a post, it does not show up in the regular content for the "web site". I think you were inquiring about something like this.

After you log in look at this link ... http://www.lawrunfarms.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=215 ... and you will see what I mean.

Due to the pain medicine I am on, I did not notice that this thread is a few weeks old, so you may have found the solution(s) you were looking for. If not, feel free to contact me at my web site ... http://www.JeffreyJLaw.com .

Sincerely,

Jeffrey J. Law


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## lharvey (Jul 1, 2003)

You got some busted links there Jeffrey.


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## XCricketX (Jun 7, 2006)

Yes, I meant to call the registrar and get an extension on the domain for the year. Do a whois on my site ... http://who.godaddy.com/WhoIs.aspx?domain=lawrunfarms.com&prog_id=godaddy and notice the Expires date. Thanks for the notice. I'll get it fixed when I get back from out of town.

Jeffrey


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

XCricketX said:


> Due to the pain medicine I am on, I did not notice that this thread is a few weeks old, so you may have found the solution(s) you were looking for. If not, feel free to contact me at my web site ... http://www.JeffreyJLaw.com .
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Jeffrey J. Law


Your web site brings up a really good question that I didn't get to yet; getting your web site found in the search engines. If you don't mind, I'll point out a few thing about how your web site is structured as an example. Please don't be offended that I'm pointing out strategic mistakes. This is not a reflection on your web page building abilities.

The first thing to do is to structure your meta tags (located in the header) in a way that promotes your page to the search engines. You can view the header info by clicking Edit and then selecting Page Source (or View Source) with either IE or Firefox. Here is the header for that page.

******
<head>
<meta ----------="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"/>
<meta name="description" content="The offical homepage of Jeffrey J. Law!"/>
<meta name="keywords" content="Jeff Law, Jeffrey Law, Jeffrey J. Law, website, web site, design, Active Server Pages, ASP, Classic ASP, vbscript, templates, custom"/>

<title>JeffreyJLaw.com</title>
<link rel="stylesheet" href="style.css" type="text/css" charset="utf-8" />

</head>

******

I see that you have listed your target keywords in the "keywords" tag. Unfortunately the keyword tag has been abused to the point where most search engines don't consider it. It won't hurt you to have a keyword tag, but it probably won't help you either.

The "description" tag is important. Unfortunately you didn't give them a lot, just "The offical homepage of Jeffrey J. Law!" While that's what it is, it's not clear what your page is about. You should present your target keywords in the description tag. The search engines will extract keywords from the description tag. Normally two sentences is optimum.

The "title" tag is probably the most valuable single place to present keywords. It's given a lot of weight at Google. Unfortunately you only have your domain name in your title tag. That's a lost opportunity until you improve the title tag. Use no more than 12 words in the title.

After the tags in the header, you should make sure that you have some content on your main page. Normally 200 to 250 words is about optimal. Again, you should present your keywords in the page content. Google won't give you any credit for words found in the description and title if they don't also appear in the page content. However, don't overstuff your content with those keywords or Google may penalize you for keyword spamming.

You also need to consider keyword prominence in your page content. Words found near the top of the page, in header text tags (within h1, h2, & h3 tags), or in bold will be given more weight. Structure your page content accordingly. Simple html is best, since some search engines don't follow css and other advanced formatting methods very well. 

Finally, when you have your page crafted properly for the search engines, post links to your web site in as many places you can. The more backlinks the better, and it helps to have them from pages with a similar theme as yours. It also helps to have any anchor text (the text with the hyperlink to your site) have your keywords in it.


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## XCricketX (Jun 7, 2006)

You are fine. I can handle your opinions. 

I think if we were having this discussion 10 years ago, then you would be more so on the money with your observations than now but things have changed so much since then.

Clovis, nor anyone else participating in this thread for that matter, may not understand what you were talking about in regards to your opinions about my structure being mistaken. Let's clarify what you are talking about. You are talking about SEO or Search Engine Optimization.

For those not familiar with the term you can read up on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine_optimization

Putting your remarks into context with this strategy you are correct when you said, "Please don't be offended that I'm pointing out strategic mistakes. This is not a reflection on your web page building abilities."

The strategic part you are referring to is referencing marketing, promoting, and advertising i.e. people finding a web site via search engine queries. Your comments have little to do with web site development and design from a technical point of view regarding HTML, scripting, database, hosting, and all of the things that were mentioned earlier in this post. Since I have a degree in Mass Media Communications, your comments are offensive because if I have a degree, then I should know better than to do what I did. This places me in a position to defend myself. So, let's get to it.

SEO is a multi-million if not a mutli-billion dollar industry. Some SEO companies do nothing but redesign meta tags and web site content in such a way that specifically attracts the notice of search engines in order to rank their clients' site(s) as high as possible in search results.

Why do people pay for this service from SEO companies? This is because they want their site to be within the first page of results if not the first result on the first page when criteria regarding their offerings are queried.

As long as there is the desire for a person to want their web site to rank #1 within all search results and within all search engines ... SEO companies will remain empowered with self-propagating the idea that they (SEO companies) deserve a #1 ranking in our internet marketing culture.

Some of the things you said were of truth. Surely if someone left the meta tag data blank there would be nothing for the search engines to index. So, you have an element of truth to what you say. As far as the limits of what should be placed within the meta tags is a matter of opinion and speculation rather than a matter of fact.

Of all the things you said though, I think that a site retaining popularity with other sites by being listed on those other sites is given weight by search engine programs (or bots [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_bot]). Let us not forget that if a site is unique in its purpose, content, and presentation that opinion could leverage that those things find favor as well.

I think you are mistaken in regards to what search engines look for. The search engines are structured to be much smarter today than they were years ago. Though there is truth to some of the platform of SEO, SEO propaganda is largely opinion-based and repetitive intimidation that plays on the fears of those less schooled such as web site owners who naively think that if they do some just so that that will a win-fall answer to all of their problems. Some unscrupulous SEO proponents prey upon the fears of these kinds of people concentrate within their sales pitch to leave the impression in the minds of the less knowing the horrific questions of "What if what they are saying is correct? Will I be left behind? Will my site fail if I don't run with their opinions? Will spending all of this money, time, and energy on a web site be all for nothing?".

You mentioned that Google may penalize for certain things. You mentioned that Google may not give credit for certain things. Please direct me to the page on Google's corporate web site that details these facts. I say this because if my structure truely is mistaken according to Google as you say, then by all means please direct me to the search engine's optimization schedule and their official stance regarding optimization so that I can not make mistakes and so that I can do it by the book the correct way according to Google. I don't think such a page exists, but if it does all of us will be the better for it.

Yes, what you are saying about word placement is true here and there, but are your opinions true for every search engine out there? My opinion is that you if you think this way, then you are mistaken or someone told you incorrectly and abused you. Search engines today make it a point to not be figured out else they will get misused yet again by SEO proponents.

As you can tell, I don't place much stock in SEO nor blackhatting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hat). The most suitable way, I have found, for getting a web site to rank the highest within search engine results is to build an honest site with honest content and honest intentions and not by trying to gain prominence via strategy with x amounts of words etc. It will naturally become popular within the realm of those it influences. Others will bookmark it, link to it, comment on it, etc, and it will gain prominence naturally ... not artificially as SEO generally tries to accomplish.

Down to the nuts and bolts. Whenever a person starts out by saying "Please don't be offended that I'm pointing out strategic mistakes." ... that is a sure fire way for anyone who is the one to not be offended to sit back and see just how far the other person is going to go to try to not offend him. The truth is, the whole remark is meant to offend and that is the intention. It's like saying please forgive me for what I am about to do which is to steal from you, and then doing just that. Don't hedge around the bush by offering an apology before you sucker punch someone. Just do the nasty deed and get it over with.

Going behind the scenes to pull source code from my professional web site and having a discussion on your opinion about my mistakes is indeed a low blow. You did not even ask me why I set it up that way. You just went with your opinion and started crucifying. Surely if I have a degree in Mass Media Communications with an emphasis in Public Relations and Advertising that I have my professional reasons for what I do.

So, the truth? Did I threaten you or something? What is the point that you are trying to prove by offending me? Are you threatened by me offering advice and complementing others? Surely you have more where with all about you than that!


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## JR05 (Jan 1, 2005)

I see you have gotten alot of good info. I have recently gotten a new website. I also am not computer literate! Go to www.webs.com they are a very basic site and are reasonable in price with the formatting you were asking for. I have attached my site for you to look at although Iam still working on it. Paypal will set up the cart for you no extra work. They also help you purchase a domain and register it. Actually both web sites I have used are good for first timers.

jr05


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

XCricketX said:


> You mentioned that Google may penalize for certain things. You mentioned that Google may not give credit for certain things. Please direct me to the page on Google's corporate web site that details these facts.


No search engine is going to make the details of their algorithm public. To do so would provide a road map to spoofing their own algorithm. The only way to tell how a search algorithm works is by observing its behavior.

The official advice at Google has not changed in years, yet we know that the search algorithm has become much more sophisticated. Their advice is basically to be a good citizen and good things will come to you. That advice is for chumps. However, Google does suggest doing the same basic things I suggest at their webmaster guidelines page. Here are a few points (these are exact quotes from Google's webmaster guidelines page).
Create a useful, information-rich site, and write pages that clearly and accurately describe your content.
Think about the words users would type to find your pages, and make sure that your site actually includes those words within it.
Make sure that your <title> elements and alt attributes are descriptive and accurate.
So even if you just want to follow Google's fatherly advice, you still wouldn't put your domain name in the title tag, would you? Clearly, in the advice above Google is hinting that keyword presentation will help standings.



XCricketX said:


> Yes, what you are saying about word placement is true here and there, but are your opinions true for every search engine out there? My opinion is that you if you think this way, then you are mistaken or someone told you incorrectly and abused you. Search engines today make it a point to not be figured out else they will get misused yet again by SEO proponents.


I've been doing this for a long time. Unquestionably, there are methods of SEO that are more effective than others. Yes, there can be risk in some techniques that can result in lower standings, such as keyword spamming, but I cautioned against that above.

The suggestions I gave were very basic. All I was suggesting was that you present your target keywords in the title, description, and page text. If you are recommending against presenting keywords in those places, I think you're giving bad advice.

I do admit that keyword presentation isn't as powerful as it was 5 years ago, but it still makes a significant difference.

Just for the record, I have never paid for search engine optimization. I've always done my own optimization. I have invested in a few advertising promotions that turned out to be ineffective, but none had anything to do with SEO.



XCricketX said:


> As you can tell, I don't place much stock in SEO nor blackhatting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hat).


There's nothing "black hat" about presenting your target keywords in prominent locations. It's just good page structure. I would never suggest using risky techniques in this day & age.



XCricketX said:


> The most suitable way, I have found, for getting a web site to rank the highest within search engine results is to build an honest site with honest content and honest intentions and not by trying to gain prominence via strategy with x amounts of words etc. It will naturally become popular within the realm of those it influences. Others will bookmark it, link to it, comment on it, etc, and it will gain prominence naturally ... not artificially as SEO generally tries to accomplish.


While I'm not sure what "suitable" means, you're telling people to be chumps. Besides, there's nothing "artificial" about presenting your target keywords, unless those keywords don't match the topic of your web site.



XCricketX said:


> Whenever a person starts out by saying "Please don't be offended that I'm pointing out strategic mistakes." ... that is a sure fire way for anyone who is the one to not be offended to sit back and see just how far the other person is going to go to try to not offend him.


This isn't personal. This is only presenting technology.

******
Now to your defense, you are correct that many (perhaps most) SEO consultants today are scam artists. The game today is to make unrealistic promises, separate the "customer" from his money, then make excuses. That's unfortunate, since those people have taken a perfectly respectable profession and reduced it to a common scam. Unfortunately the truth can't compete with scam promises, so the scam artists get all the business.

Who are you going to give you business to; the person who tells you that he can get you 300 to 400 visitors/day, or the guy who tell you that you can get 3000 to 4000 visitors/day? The customer has no idea who's being honest and who's the scam artist, so the scam artist gets the business. The customer has no way of knowing that 3000 to 4000 visitors/day might be unrealistic for his site topic.

But good keyword presentation will help. There's no reason not to do it. Besides, even if it doesn't help your rankings, the title and description are what people see in the Google search results. Your result will have your domain name in the title, then "The offical homepage of Jeffrey J. Law!" for the description. How are people supposed to know what your page is about? What motivation are you giving them to visit your page?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

JR05 said:


> www.walnuthavengoats.freewebspace.com


Maybe I've just got a dirty mind, but is that light brown goat in the back mounting another goat?


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## JR05 (Jan 1, 2005)

Yes you do have a dirty mind!:doh: That goat is standing up on the hay feeder and the other one is several feet away. Besides they are all girls!


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

JR05 said:


> Besides they are all girls!


Hey, it's none of my business either way! LOL


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## How Do I (Feb 11, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Your web site brings up a really good question that I didn't get to yet; getting your web site found in the search engines. If you don't mind, I'll point out a few thing about how your web site is structured as an example. Please don't be offended that I'm pointing out strategic mistakes. This is not a reflection on your web page building abilities.
> 
> The first thing to do is to structure your meta tags (located in the header) in a way that promotes your page to the search engines. You can view the header info by clicking Edit and then selecting Page Source (or View Source) with either IE or Firefox. Here is the header for that page.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting the added information Nevada! It bears repeating for new webmasters.


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## XCricketX (Jun 7, 2006)

What you say sounds reasonable to some extent. Thank you for the explanation.

I'm still content with my meta tags at this point. My site is still in the makings, so I'm not too worried about meta tags right now. Also, I do most of my business in person and not across the internet.

In order to find "mistakes" ... I looked at your signature and went to the web site linked within it which is www.homesteadworld.com ... you should use that web site as an example since you could do a better slice and dice as well as prove your point better.

Here is their source:http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=3667196

<meta ----------="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" />
<meta ----------="content-language" content="en-gb" />
<meta ----------="content-style-type" content="text/css" />
<meta ----------="imagetoolbar" content="no" />
<meta name="resource-type" content="document" />
<meta name="distribution" content="global" />
<meta name="copyright" content="2002-2006 phpBB Group" />
<meta name="keywords" content="" />
<meta name="description" content="" />
<title>Homestead_World &bull; Index page</title>


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## XCricketX (Jun 7, 2006)

Also, for you *How Do I* ...

Your blogspot has no meta content like we are talking about. Yet I was able to Google this "How To Make Pancakes Like IHOP - Pancake Recipe", and guess who's web site came up first? So, how did your site do so well despite having no meta data? Hmmm?


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## XCricketX (Jun 7, 2006)

I may be a chump as well as tell others to be "chumps" but from what I see in your reply to my reply Nevada is that you are saying chumps finish at a lower ranking so in order to get higher ratings you recommend folks to go on the sly to rank higher ... which ... says to me exactly what I was saying to you before ... you are going about it dishonestly. And even if you aren't you seem to have little respect for those who do go about it honestly.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

XCricketX said:


> I may be a chump as well as tell others to be "chumps" but from what I see in your reply to my reply Nevada is that you are saying chumps finish at a lower ranking so in order to get higher ratings you recommend folks to go on the sly to rank higher ... which ... says to me exactly what I was saying to you before ... you are going about it dishonestly. And even if you aren't you seem to have little respect for those who do go about it honestly.


Look, I'm not interested in sword fighting with you, and I'm even willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's stop with the personal attacks and get to the nuts and bolts of what this discussion is about.

You said that you had "professional reasons" for what you do. 

_"Surely if I have a degree in Mass Media Communications with an emphasis in Public Relations and Advertising that I have my professional reasons for what I do."_

So by that statement I assume that putting your domain name in the title tag was no accident, and in fact has to be there as part of your promotional campaign. If that's the case, would you mind sharing with the rest of us how having your domain name in your title tag will help promote that web site any better than simply saying what the theme of your web site is?

What I mean is, when people see you in Google the blue title in the results will only have your domain name, not some statement indicating that you do web page development. Exactly what does seeing the domain name do to lure a potential visitor to visit your web site?


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## XCricketX (Jun 7, 2006)

Nevada, when you picked apart my site to further your point of view is when you picked up your sword and started personally attacking me.

For you to say that you are not interested in sword fighting with me is either not true or you just think you can say whatever you want to whenever without opposition.

So without an apology for picking a fight with me first now you want me to stop defending myself and teach you my marketing tactics.

What do I get in return ... another slap in the face? I'm not interested.

Have a good day Nevada.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

XCricketX said:


> So without an apology for picking a fight with me first now you want me to stop defending myself and teach you my marketing tactics.


Okay fine, let's totally let that one go too.

So since the point of this thread is to help people build web pages, and presumably promote them, let's put our differences aside and help these people with some contemporary issues. That IS why you posted here, isn't it? So we're both here to help people just starting out. I think that's a fair statement.

One big problem for new people is Google "sandboxing" new domains. By sandboxing I mean that the new domains won't be indexed for about 6 months. You already know that, since you aren't indexed yet. So what do you suggest that new people do to gain exposure early on? Are there any techniques that you can suggest to these people to draw customers using Google until the sandbox period is over?

******
PS -- For those just observing this pathetic exchange, I'll reveal a new and wonderful way to get to the top of Google instantly (well, at least within an hour or so) even with a new domain, so stay tuned. But for the time being, I'll defer to the expert. After all, he majored in this stuff at college.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

XCricketX said:


> In order to find "mistakes" ... I looked at your signature and went to the web site linked within it which is www.homesteadworld.com ... you should use that web site as an example since you could do a better slice and dice as well as prove your point better.
> 
> Here is their source:http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=3667196
> 
> ...


Actually, it's not exactly a mistake. That site is powered with a php script that automatically generates the pages through conditional arguments, the same way the HT forum works. Unfortunately I'm using phpBB for the forum script, which does not come with the native capability to edit meta tags.

There is, however, a mod (more like a hack) available that can do dynamic build-outs of meta tags, but it's version specific. Moreover, each time the board is upgraded to a new version the meta tag hack is overwritten, wiping out the changes. I can't really ignore the upgrades, since they are all at least partially security upgrades, so the mod keeps getting zapped.

Quite frankly, I've grown weary of keeping up with the mod. I get most of my members through word of mouth anyway. If it were a commercial site it would be different, but that forum happens to be just for fun.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Well, it&#8217;s been 2 days and he hasn&#8217;t come back. I guess he&#8217;s mad. I don&#8217;t blame him because I was a little hard on him. This was a good lesson though. Everyone&#8217;s an expert these days, if you know what I mean.

But we have business to discuss. I made a promise to you that I would tell you how to get high rankings at Google within an hour. I know that&#8217;s a tall order, but I assure you that it can be done and that you can do it.

First, let me warn you that this method won&#8217;t be available forever. The old saying that &#8216;you have to make hay while the sun shines&#8217; is even more true in SEO (Search Engine Optimization) than it is in making hay. You snooze, you lose. The reason for this is that your interests are dissimilar from Google&#8217;s interests. You want free advertising, while Google is in the business of providing meaningful searches. So you & I will get our stuff at the top, while a not so small army of Google techs will work overtime to find ways to put us back in our place. Google coming out on top is the natural order of things, so it's bound to happen eventually. That just SEO for ya, it's a never ending cat & mouse game between webmasters and Google. Just so you know.

Let&#8217;s get started.

******
Okay, so we all know that good standings at Google are difficult to get these days. That&#8217;s become a whole lot worse the past few months. The reason is that we&#8217;re seeing a lot more media results in searches, which push ordinary web pages farther down in the results. The exploit here is to take advantage of those media listings.

Google eventually indexes any new content that you add to your web page, but it takes weeks (sometimes up to 2 months). It&#8217;s even worse with new domains, where Google doesn&#8217;t index new domains for 6 months. People in the SEO game call that being "sandboxed" by Google. Google may crawl your new domain every day, but it still won&#8217;t be in any search results for at least 6 months. However, there's a problem with Google doing that; people had to go elsewhere to find contemporary information. But Google wanted those people to stay at Google, so to remedy that problem Google classified some information as &#8220;priority content&#8221;. That's the buzzword I want you to remember and understand.

As an example, let&#8217;s say that you heard people discussing Octomom at work or here at HT, so you wanted to learn more. If you search at Google you will find tons of listings for Octomom, and some could even be news articles just released today. That&#8217;s made possible through priority content, which is content that&#8217;s indexed immediately after Google discovers it. When the term &#8220;Octomom&#8221; first hit the newswire, you would have been able to see the first results at Google within an hour or so. That&#8217;s because all of the major news sites (CNN, MSNBC, FoxNews, etc.) are all declared priority content by Google.

What you want to do is to get your product or service promoted as priority content. I know what you&#8217;re thinking; which is that if Matt Lauer of the Today Show was calling you up inviting you on his show to do an interview about your product or service that your advertising problems would be over. You would be correct in that assumption. But admittedly, that&#8217;s probably not going to happen. Fortunately for us, Google recognizes several other media types as priority content. Those include certain blogs, social networking sites, and audio/video content sites. It&#8217;s the video content that is the easiest for us to exploit.

When you submit a video to youtube.com, it will be indexed in Google within hours. Google will also use the title and keywords you provide as the basis for search standings. And it&#8217;s not just youtube that&#8217;s considered priority content, it&#8217;s dozens of web sites that support video hosting. Google has to take you at your word on the keywords and title, since their crawler robot can't watch clips. I suspect that Google also depends on other members of the video web site to complain and have the clip taken down when the clip content doesn't match the keywords.

At this point you should probably watch a clip that describes the process and demonstrates the results better than I can. But before you watch it, understand that they are selling a product. Specifically they are selling a video content posting service. It&#8217;s not cheap either. It&#8217;s $1 to try it for 30 days, but $99/month after that. That&#8217;s pretty steep in my opinion, and I suspect that you would be just as well off listing manually. Also, the guy in the clip is an irritating dweeb, but you should expect that from a guy in La Jolla. Finally, the mechanics of listing and the viewing of results are towards the end of the clip, so be sure to watch it all the way through. If you&#8217;re in a hurry and can only watch half of it, just watch the second half. But if this concept is new to you, I encourage you to watch the entire clip.

http://www.trafficgeyser.com/frank.html

You can produce a short, informative clip with any digital camera and a tripod. If you make it in segments and need to crop & paste video segments together, you should download VirtualDub (it&#8217;s free). The idea is to make a clip, then upload it with a title, description, and keywords that fit the theme of your web site. You will also have your web address on the page with the clip, that will hopefully drive interested customers to your website. You'll then submit it to a number of web sites that will list the video clip at Google within hours.

There really is a lot of traffic that can be generated by videos at youtube. I posted a clip at youtube towards the end of July about a wind generator I made. It already has 22,000 views, and I didn&#8217;t really promote it. It just happened. At that rate I'll be getting 50,000 visitors per year, just to my youtube page. Here&#8217;s the clip.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oI0N21QqwA[/ame]

There is some science behind which keywords you&#8217;ll want to select, so I&#8217;ll cover that in another installment.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

In order to make the most of the video submission technique I described above, you will need to select effective keyword phrases that reflect the theme of your web site.

Keyword selection used to be little more than guesswork. It&#8217;s also been years since single keywords were realistically attainable. Today you need to target specific keyword phrases. But which ones?

Eventually we had tools that we could use to tell us which keyword phrases were searched for most often. Google offers that free in the Google Adwords keyword utility.

https://adwords.google.com/select/KeywordToolExternal

But it isn&#8217;t enough just to know which keyword phrases were searched for the most. The missing element is competition, or in other words; how many web pages are targeting the same keyword phrase will you be competing with for position? Obviously, the fewer web sites that are competing for the same keyword phrases you're using, the better your chances will be of getting results.

A great service called WordTracker does competition analysis for you. To illustrate this point, take a look at the results for the keyword phrases concerning an abscessed tooth (I was doing a promotion for dental plans when I did this).










This was an exceptional search, in that it reveals some very interesting information. Before we discuss the technical aspects of the results, lets first consider that the first two phrases in fact have the word &#8221;abscess&#8221; misspelled (the "s" is missing), yet had more people searching for those phrases than the second two, where it was spelled correctly. Accordingly, it makes the best sense to misspell it, at least from a SEO point of view. If you were a dentist who didn&#8217;t want to look like an idiot you would probably spell it correctly, but as a promoter you would want it spelled incorrectly. That was a result that I didn't expect, and I never would have guessed it without WordTracker. 

Note that this search was done a long time ago, before Google corrected spelling in search strings. I only showed this as an example of the power of count and competition analysis. There are always going to be surprising results found at WordTracker.

Here are what the columns mean:

Count &#8211; The actual number of times that phrase appears in their database.
24 Hrs &#8211; The calculated number of times that phrase should be searched for at MSN each day.
Competing &#8211; The actual number of web pages that target that particular phrase.
KEI Analysis &#8211; A calculated index (based on count and competition) that shows how good of a keyword it is. Anything over 10 is workable, and anything over a few hundred is a gift. The first two are terrific, but the last two you wouldn't fool with.

That data is available at wordtracker.com. It&#8217;s a commercial service, but it&#8217;s the only place to find that information. It&#8217;s very easy to use, and you can try it for free. (Hint: use a different email account and try it again for free, and again, and again...).

So by referring to the results above again, you see that with misspelling you not only benefit from the increased number of searches, but also in having less competition. 

The point is that guessing at keywords just doesn&#8217;t make sense anymore. There are tools that take all of the guess work out of selecting keyword phrases. There&#8217;s no excuse for not targeting the most likely keywords to attract traffic.


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## How Do I (Feb 11, 2008)

XCricketX said:


> Also, for you *How Do I* ...
> 
> Your blogspot has no meta content like we are talking about. Yet I was able to Google this "How To Make Pancakes Like IHOP - Pancake Recipe", and guess who's web site came up first? So, how did your site do so well despite having no meta data? Hmmm?


First, we were talking new webmasters with new websites. Many, having no idea where to start. Nevada provided some valid points for new webmasters. I don't personally consider a blog hosted at blogger a traditional website. One, I have very little control over how it's run other than the content that I input. I think there is a meta mod for blogger blogs, but I don't care to go to the trouble as it is just a hobby blog. There are other ways to work around without meta content (be it blogs or websites), but for the new webmaster it would be best to stick with the basics. Following good SEO practices is not dishonest. In fact, it is very big business. I may not agree with how some SEO firms operate, but I think it is best left to the search engines to decide what will and won't be allowed as it is their service that they provide to their users. Basic SEO practices should be part of any new webmaster's arsenal in competing on the internet.


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