# Lowering Fasting Blood Glucose



## MoonRiver

The only time I have been successful at losing weight in the last 20 years is when I tried to get my fbg as low as I could. When I got my fbg into the 70's and even as low as high 50's, the weight came off fast and easily.

Usually I am good for a couple of weeks and then have overwhelming cravings that won't go away. When I got my fbg down, no cravings.

I gained all the weight I lost and then some and conventional dieting hasn't worked for me. So Friday, I go back on paleo (epi-paleo) with extremely low carbs and daily blood glucose testing. Once my body adjusts, I will start doing intermittent fasting, which just means I will eat only within a 6 hour window every day. Probably lunch around 10 am and dinner around 4 pm.

I spent some time thinking about what has worked and what hasn't. I thought I had cancer (and so did 2 doctors) a couple of years ago and I went on a diet specifically to fight cancer. The diet was geared toward driving blood glucose down as cancer feeds on glucose. Recently I have read that glucose in diabetics turns the fat burning gene off, so I'm theorizing that the reason I lost weight so easily when I lowered my FBG was because the fat burning gene got turned back on. When I added more carbs back into my diet, eventually I turned the fat burning gene off again. At least that's my theory.

If I make some progress, I will come back and post results. If I screw up, I won't!


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## mrstillery09

This is interesting. 7 weeks ago I started a ketogenic diet. It has been wonderful. I was ruled by food, and had intense cravings. Since starting this I feel free, no more intense cravings, and I feel great. I've lost 30 pounds, though the first half was mostly water weight I'm sure. A ketogenic diet is one that puts you into ketosis. I eat 20 carbs a day, and eat no sugar or grains. No fast food, etc. It's mostly about macros, so 65% fat, 30% protein and 5% carbs. Hope whatever you do works well for you. I am a big believer that sugar is detrimental to our bodies.


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## DisasterCupcake

For weight loss I ALWAYS recommend coconut oil. Virgin cold pressed. 

3-6 tablespoons a day does wonders. I am a fan of the ketogenic diet- for temporary transitions. The body still needs carbohydrates- about 72 grams for maintenance level, without burning as fuel. But the fact is, human physiology is designed to use fat as fuel, not carbs. The insulin regulatory mechanism is proof enough of that. 

Using real fats in their natural form is key to healthy metabolism. Butter, ghee, lard, tallow, duck fat.


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## HermitJohn

I was diagnosed full blown uncontrolled type 2 diabetic back in April. I have made amazing progress, but still very much a diabetic.

You do have to keep carbs down. Right now I eat three chopped veggie salads with sunflower seeds every day. Thats it. Been amazing that I have trouble getting those three salads down, I really only want to eat twice a day. My appetite has went away. I have also been taking some supplements that are usually low in diabetic. Something lot diabetics dont realize and docs dont mention, metformin will deplete B-12. 

Keeping carbs down was only realistic way I was going to give my body time to heal. I am hoping someday I can add back some carbs, the salad diet does get kinda old. Raw veggies are amazingly filling and stay with me longer than cooked. Then unsweetened herb teas for warm drink to sip on. Caffeine in coffee will bump up my blood sugar. 

Here is book I have found very helpful: http://www.amazon.com/Say-No-Diabetes-Preventing-Reversing/dp/0749955899

I however got my copy used off half.com, shipped for well under $10. Holford is very logical and balanced in his approach. Info not always organized as well as it could be, so plan on reading this multiple times. But his book and attitude impressed me while lot other diabetic books didnt seem very logical or practical at all.


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## MoonRiver

DisasterCupcake said:


> For weight loss I ALWAYS recommend coconut oil. Virgin cold pressed.
> 
> 3-6 tablespoons a day does wonders. I am a fan of the ketogenic diet- for temporary transitions. The body still needs carbohydrates- about 72 grams for maintenance level, without burning as fuel. But the fact is, human physiology is designed to use fat as fuel, not carbs. The insulin regulatory mechanism is proof enough of that.
> 
> Using real fats in their natural form is key to healthy metabolism. Butter, ghee, lard, tallow, duck fat.


Unfortunately, I have to cut calories and carbs. When I use coconut oil, it slows down or stops weight loss. I can use maybe 1 tbsp/day. Any more than that is self defeating.


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## light rain

I believe it is a bit risky trying to get your fbs down to the 50"s. As you know, go much below that you could pass out and become a statistic. What is your a1c ?

I hope you find a way to safely lower your sugar and lose the weight. At least you are looking into options. So many people, men and women say they can't do it and accept all the baggage that accompanies uncontrolled diabetes. It is hard with media and friends sharing pictures of scrumptious desserts and main dishes with no acknowledgement of how many calories go with the food.


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## MoonRiver

light rain said:


> I believe it is a bit risky trying to get your fbs down to the 50"s. As you know, go much below that you could pass out and become a statistic. What is your a1c ?
> 
> I hope you find a way to safely lower your sugar and lose the weight. At least you are looking into options. So many people, men and women say they can't do it and accept all the baggage that accompanies uncontrolled diabetes. It is hard with media and friends sharing pictures of scrumptious desserts and main dishes with no acknowledgement of how many calories go with the food.


I get cravings that won't go away. They go on day after day until satisfied. The only thing that has worked was to drive my fbg down. I started researching specific fat genes last night and found 2 so far that are switched on. I've got to do a lot more reading before I can make sense of it all. Still in very early stages of usefulness.


ETA: Just to avoid confusion, I am not diabetic. FBG right now is higher than it should be - about 104. I expect it will drop into the 90's in the next week or so.


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## HermitJohn

Just for kicks test yourself one hour after a meal, and then again two hour after a meal. Just a typical regular meal for you, not some special super low carb meal just for the test. You should be under 140 one hour after and under 120 two hour after. At least you are testing. I talked recently to my ex, telling her about my diabetes. She mentioned her doc considered her prediabetic, and was concerned enough about her blood sugar that he set her up with meter. She lost interest and stopped taking readings after few weeks, though for her the meter and strips were completely free, no copay. I tried to tell her, that she really, really doesnt want full blown diabetes. That its a royal nightmare to go through. lot easier to modify course NOW rather than later. But its like a reformed alcoholic trying to tell his old drinking buddies to stop drinking. They arent listening. Cant happen to them....


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## MoonRiver

HermitJohn said:


> Just for kicks test yourself one hour after a meal, and then again two hour after a meal. Just a typical regular meal for you, not some special super low carb meal just for the test. You should be under 140 one hour after and under 120 two hour after. At least you are testing. I talked recently to my ex, telling her about my diabetes. She mentioned her doc considered her prediabetic, and was concerned enough about her blood sugar that he set her up with meter. She lost interest and stopped taking readings after few weeks, though for her the meter and strips were completely free, no copay. I tried to tell her, that she really, really doesnt want full blown diabetes. That its a royal nightmare to go through. lot easier to modify course NOW rather than later. But its like a reformed alcoholic trying to tell his old drinking buddies to stop drinking. They arent listening. Cant happen to them....


Do you know about ceylon cinnamon? 1/2 tsp/day is supposed to really bring down blood glucose. I use it on food where appropriate, so I haven't been taking it every day. Looking for a good smoothie recipe where I can use my cinnamon along with beets and kale. May have to just experiment until I come up with sometime tasty. I'm trying to get away from supplements and use real foods instead as much as possible.


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## oneraddad

Want lower blood sugar, walk more


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## MoonRiver

oneraddad said:


> Want lower blood sugar, walk more


Just restarted. Last time I was walking 6-8 miles a day. Now I'm back down to 1, but that will go up as my muscles get used to it again. Press to much and my back starts to spasm. As the weight comes off, the miles will increase. This is a 4 month plan with maintenance to follow.


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## HermitJohn

Yea that book I mentioned, Holford suggests starting 600mcg chromium polynicotinate along with teaspoon of cinnamon per day. I think it takes about a month to see any difference with the cinnamon and I just started it not very long ago. I had to go to 1000mcg of chromium for any effect. But it definitely works. Been on it since July. There are all sorts herbal remedies supposed to help blood sugar. I couldnt say if any of them actually work. The menthol in peppermint tea or oil will take your blood sugar down if you take enough. I was using peppermint tea as replacement for coffee since caffeine spiked my blood sugar. Well drank four strong cups peppermint tea on empty stomach and whee, down I go. Hypoglycemic event. It hit around 70 and I drank the cup fruit juice and back up to 112 or so. I had read of people messing with peppermint oil and having this effect, but hadnt expected it from just peppermint tea. After that I mixed it with other stuff so it wouldnt be that potent. Probably be ok to drink it with meals. You arent a diabetic so it probably wouldnt have that strong of an effect on you. Though the effect isnt long term so to keep blood sugar down you'd about have to be sipping it all day and all night. I figured maybe best use would be to take it with meals so as to moderate any blood sugar spikes from the food??? Again though I am thinking like a diabetic. You arent diabetic, so maybe not having to worry about large spikes up or down.


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## Terri

MoonRiver said:


> I get cravings that won't go away. They go on day after day until satisfied. The only thing that has worked was to drive my fbg down. I started researching specific fat genes last night and found 2 so far that are switched on. I've got to do a lot more reading before I can make sense of it all. Still in very early stages of usefulness.
> .


If your blood sugar is up, you will be just as hungry as if your blood sugar is low. The reason is, the blood sugar molecules get too large when your blood sugar goes up and then they do not want to go into the cells of your body. A few sugar molecules get in but not nearly enough.

Because the cells of your body are not getting their food, or not enough of it, they send out a hunger signal.


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## MoonRiver

Terri said:


> If your blood sugar is up, you will be just as hungry as if your blood sugar is low. The reason is, the blood sugar molecules get too large when your blood sugar goes up and then they do not want to go into the cells of your body. A few sugar molecules get in but not nearly enough.
> 
> Because the cells of your body are not getting their food, or not enough of it, they send out a hunger signal.


I get a blank look from my doctor when I say this to her, but what I believe is my problem is that my body does not convert body fat to energy very effectively. When I cut calories without being in ketosis, after a couple of weeks I really do start to go into starvation. I could work in the hot sun for 4-6 hours day after day, cut calories, and barely lose weight. And by cutting calories I'm talking under 2000/day. That's probably at least a 1500 calory deficit/day or 2 1/2 lbs/wk. I was fine until I started getting overwhelming cravings for things like ice cream - fatty, sugary foods that convert quickly to glucose. These are not the type of cravings that go away after an hour or 2 if you ignore them. Once the craving starts, it is there hour after hour until I eat something fat and sugary. I think I may have lasted 3 days before I finally gave in. This happens every time.

When I overeat, the extra calories get stored as fat, but when I cut down on calories, the fat doesn't get turned back into glucose. I can easily put on 10 lbs in a week and then it will take me a month to get it back off.

I think I can get around this by going into ketosis and burning primarily ketones for energy. At least that's what my past experience is telling me. The difference this time is I realize that I have to stay in ketosis for the rest of my life. I have watched a couple of videos where people in the videos have been on a ketogenic diet for a while and say they feel great and plan on staying on it indefinitely.

I really bumped up my fats yesterday and it was amazing. I added grass fed butter to my coffee, had bacon and eggs for breakfast, a small can of smoked clams and 2 tbsp of coconut manna for lunch. That was it. No hunger the rest of the day and not hungry when I got up this morning.


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## Terri

In other words, if you were a horse you would be an "easy keeper", LOL!

Well, some people are.

I hesitate to tell you this, but I am all to aware of how strong cravings can be. 

Look up the GL of chocolate covered nuts. I do NOT keep them in my house! But, when I get the craving for fats and sweets...... 'Nuff said!


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## MoonRiver

Terri said:


> In other words, if you were a horse you would be an "easy keeper", LOL!
> 
> Well, some people are.
> 
> I hesitate to tell you this, but I am all to aware of how strong cravings can be.
> 
> Look up the GL of chocolate covered nuts. I do NOT keep them in my house! But, when I get the craving for fats and sweets...... 'Nuff said!


So far, eating a high fat diet seems to be working, and I still am not eating enough fat. The recommended macros are 75% fat, 20% protein, and 5% carbs. I just checked this morning for the 1st time, and I am still not in ketosis. Don't have my new meter yet to check glucose. 

I wish I had bought a meter that tests ketones and glucose. What I am shooting for is to get to a 1:1 ratio.


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## Terri

MoonRiver said:


> So far, eating a high fat diet seems to be working, and I still am not eating enough fat. The recommended macros are 75% fat, 20% protein, and 5% carbs. I just checked this morning for the 1st time, and I am still not in ketosis. Don't have my new meter yet to check glucose.
> 
> I wish I had bought a meter that tests ketones and glucose. What I am shooting for is to get to a 1:1 ratio.


The meter is not your only way of measurement. 

When I was new to the diabetic diet, I was unhappy because I was only loosing a pound a month, and I did not feel like I was doing a good job of the diet. So, the doctor pointed out that I had lost a pound a month for all three months I had been on it, that my B/P was down, that I was feeling better, and she thought I was doing FINE!

She was right, too. My B/P kept dropping, and it eventually went from the 160's over the 100's if I forgot my B/P pill to 90's over the 60's unmedicated. That was a long time ago and I am now back on B/P meds, but I am also 60 instead of being in my 40's. And, eventually that weight around my middle did come off. Remember that my main goal at the time was not weight loss my main goal was to get healthy: if my main goal was weight loss she would have tweaked the diet a bit. As it turns out I am short so I do not need as many calories as some, so the weight loss was slower but the doc figured that if it wasn't broke why fix it? My B/P was down, my BS was better, and I was feeling better. AND my weight as going down, though slowly. 

You have said that you are not having cravings at the moment. Look at the bathroom scale: are you gaining, loosing, or saying the same? As long as you are not gaining I would be satisfied as you have only been on this diet for a few days. I would give it a bit longer,

Also, how is your vitamin C intake? You need vegetables also. I like to cut up celery and such for my husband and I in a plastic container with a lid and I change the vegetables so that one time I top it off with celery, another time with bell peppers, and another time with carrots, and such so that there is a selection. Because, a shortage of vitamins will trigger those cravings we all try so hard to fight! If you can stay on a diet for a long time it will do your health as much good as your weight.

So, instead of worrying for the moment about ketosis, look first at the scale. Then look at how you FEEL! Ketosis comes third.


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## MoonRiver

Terri said:


> So, instead of worrying for the moment about ketosis, look first at the scale. Then look at how you FEEL! Ketosis comes third.


I am going for the most weight I can lose in the shortest time possible without starving myself. I am 66, so time to accomplish this is now or it will never happen. I just read an interesting article where the author did a search of scientific literature, and could not find a single study that showed losing weight slowly was better - even though that is conventional wisdom. He actually found studies that showed that people that lost weight quickly were more likely to keep the weight off. Again, just the opposite of conventional wisdom.

I have only been on the diet for 2 weeks, but have lost quite a bit. Weight loss will probably start slowing down, but I still plan/hope to lose 2 to 3 lbs a week. I think if I stick to it, I should be at or near goal weight by Jan 1. That's my goal - To be able to not have to start another year needing to lose weight and worried about blood pressure.

My target fbg is 55-65. As long as ketones are high, going that low is safe, which is why I need to get into ketosis. One researcher (PhD) said his FBG had dropped into the 40's, but he was fine because his ketone level was high. He lectures all over the world on using a ketogenic diet to stop the growth of cancer and other benefits of ketosis.

None of this is what doctors know or practice, but it is proven and makes sense from a species point of view. For most of man's history, he had to survive through feast and famine. The way our physiology handled that was to be able to use glucose for fuel when food was plentiful and ketones when it wasn't. A doctor who only understands how the body works in feast, will likely not understand what my labs/blood shows in famine.

Note: I am not recommending anyone else try this unless they do a lot of research first and they should run it by their doctor. My fallback is there is a walk-in clinic near my house and I can be there in about 5-10 minutes if necessary in a semi-emergency. I feel comfortable with it because it is an extension of the low carb diets I have followed for years, it just changes the macros to increase fat. Even Dr Atkins had a fat/fast diet for people that had difficulty losing on the Atkins Diet.


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## Terri

If I am doing something that may run my blood sugar too low, I try to have on hand a candy that I hate. Tasty candy will tempt me but some things are flat out nasty!

If the nasty candy sounds good I know I should eat a snack. It might be the candy but it might not. That is how I handle the risk of low blood sugar, because sometimes I am I the middle of something and I do not want stop, but I really should. That is how I can tell when I really MUST stop.

If that sounds like it might work for you, go right ahead. Just be sure you hate it with a passion or it will tempt you. So, If you get the shakes from low blood sugar you can fix it ASAP. Though a teaspoon of sugar will work also.

I still do not think that low blood sugar will prevent cancer, but if you do then so be it! 

And, congrats on your recent weight loss!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## MoonRiver

Terri said:


> If I am doing something that may run my blood sugar too low, I try to have on hand a candy that I hate. Tasty candy will tempt me but some things are flat out nasty!
> 
> If the nasty candy sounds good I know I should eat a snack. It might be the candy but it might not. That is how I handle the risk of low blood sugar, because sometimes I am I the middle of something and I do not want stop, but I really should. That is how I can tell when I really MUST stop.
> 
> If that sounds like it might work for you, go right ahead. Just be sure you hate it with a passion or it will tempt you. So, If you get the shakes from low blood sugar you can fix it ASAP. Though a teaspoon of sugar will work also.
> 
> I still do not think that low blood sugar will prevent cancer, but if you do then so be it!
> 
> And, congrats on your recent weight loss!!!!!!!!!!!!


Like other cells, cancer uses glucose. The quirk is the other cells can also use ketones, but cancer can't.

Some researchers say that getting glucose very low (55-70 range} may kill cancer, others say it will stop the growth. Seems like a win win to me. It is starting to be used in conjunction with other treatments for cancer.

Could ancient people have understood the healing effect of fasting and that's why we find it included in major religions?


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## MoonRiver

MoonRiver said:


> Unfortunately, I have to cut calories and carbs. When I use coconut oil, it slows down or stops weight loss. I can use maybe 1 tbsp/day. Any more than that is self defeating.


Want to update this. What I am finding is that if my fat is high enough and my carbs and protein low enough, I can handle plenty of butter and coconut oil and still lose weight. In the past, I believe my problem was I was eating too much protein and not enough fat.

I just received my jar of ghee today and I'm excited to try it. One nice thing about eating a lot of fat is much of it doesn't have to be refrigerated.


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## MoonRiver

A quick update. I went through some trying days during the first 17 days and they may not be over, but today is the best I have felt in 1 1/2 years. And I have already lost 21 lbs. No hunger between meals and most importantly, no ravings. Just got my new meter and fbg has dropped over 15 points in a about 2 weeks.

I get excited just thinking about butter and cream! You can eat anything if you smother it in butter and cream.


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## DisasterCupcake

Some points to ponder while on a ketogenic diet, and avoiding carbs...

Fermenting your grains or high starch veggies eats up a huge percentage of the available carbs in those foods. Lacto fermentation is my favorite form of preserving food. It allows the microbes to eat away the difficult to digest carbs, turning them into lactic acid- which is actually very easy to digest and increases the absorption of important minerals that are present in grains- like chromium!

Zinc and chromium are essential minerals that most Americans are very deficient in. They are not well absorbed, and may even be depleted from the body, by eating refined grains or simply grains that have not been soaked/sprouted/fermented. 

They are absolutely critical in blood sugar regulation, metabolism, and appetite. 

I usually don't recommend a ketogenic diet for more than a couple of months, at the most, and that is for someone with a very good constitution. The reason is simply that, a high fat diet is very rich, and allows the body to heal rapidly. Once the gut is regulated and able to digest simple and complex carbs without overreacting, grains, starches, dairy and other 'carb' foods can be added back to the diet. The best long term diet, for optimal health and superior nutrition, is always as diverse as possible. Grains are definitely not for everyone, but if you can tolerate them, it would be a shame not to take advantage of those tiny powerhouses!


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## HermitJohn

An interesting observation. I had been eating bowl of chopped raw veggies three times a day along with sunflower seeds and/or nuts for couple months now. It was hard to get three bowls of such down every day even though that was all I was eating. Yesterday I was running very low on raw veggies. So cooked some buckwheat and mung beans. They both contain high amounts of D-chiro-inositol that helps control blood sugar. My gosh I had hard time not overeating on them. My body wanted more and more and more... As healthy as they are, they are still high in carbs, especially if you overeat on them.

Today I went and bought more raw veggies (I refuse to call anything from a supermarket fresh!) As an experiment I mixed some of the leftover buckwheat/mung beans into the raw veggies. Again no desire to overeat on them. Same as the veggies alone. My body has improved to point I can tolerate more carbs in my diet without zooming my blood sugar so no significant difference in blood sugar with the buckwheat/mung added or not.

I have learned that for me, looks like significant raw veggie salad has to be a large part of my diet for forseeable future. Sucks to have to go to town every two weeks during winter months. But veggies (except cabbage and carrots) from supermarket tend not to keep more than two weeks. Maybe need to keep extra cabbage/carrots on hand just in case weather is non-cooperative. Obvious I need the raw veggies in my diet. Cooked veggies by way dont have same effect.

Guess my point is that those maybe trying to lose weight make be sure they eat a significant amount raw veggies every meal. They arent high calorie and are very low carb. And lot fiber. But they seem to definitely control appetite by whatever mysterious means they have..


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## light rain

Maybe the raw veggies are supplying something the body knows it needs but is unmet it most of today's traditional (last 100 years) meals. 

Amazing that people want teeth to last a lifetime but don't want to chew for 2 minutes.


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## frogmammy

Terri said:


> If I am doing something that may run my blood sugar too low, I try to have on hand a candy that I hate...


I have NEVER found a nasty candy. However, my go-to in an emergency (usually when I'm running around paying bills, shopping, etc) is some horrible, horrible, pretzel chips....mustard and horseraddish. No idea who came up with that combination but they are probably dead by now. Maybe from dementia.

I keep a bag of these nasty things in my car for emergencies, and they have never tasted good enough that I eat more than needed, when needed. A positive thing is, nobody else will eat them, either. They have been opened, in my car, for six months and taste about the same as they did when I opened the bag. You can't get quality like that just *anywhere*! LOL!

Mon


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## DisasterCupcake

Personally, I don't use raw veggies, and I don't recommend them very often to clients (I'm a nutritionist). 

The reason being, human digestive powers are not suited to them. A very high-volume, high-fiber diet(even if it is vegetable fiber) in the long term makes the bowels distend and less able to perform peristalsis. 

Overeating unsprouted grains is even worse. All grains and seeds contain phytic acid, which binds minerals in the GI tract in addition to inhibiting many critical digestive enzymes. 

If someone comes to me with a digestive problem- which about 100% of poeple do these days- I recommend absolutely NO raw vegetable or grain products. Especially cruciferous vegetables like broccoli and cabbage. At least not until their digestive powers have been restored. Veggies are best taken at least steamed, even better fermented into kimchi or kraut, and with generous amounts of vitamin rich fat like butter or cream.

Everyone will benefit from a low-volume, nutrient-dense diet. We have one very small (comparatively)highly acidic stomach, and a relatively short intestine. It's not designed for fiberous foods.


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## light rain

You may be right, DC, but I find it hard to accept your advice about raw vegetables and raw fruit. I do agree fermented vegetables are easier to digest. 

Look at the teeth of cultures that survived on vegetables, fruit and high fiber ones at that and a little meat or fish. Beautiful teeth with a palette the correct size to accommodate them. 

Look at the teeth of people in the last 100 yrs. decay and over crowding in the mouth. Over consumption of sugar and lack of fiber, IMO, is at the root of this. Maybe also a lack of vit. D.

On a healthy digestive system fiber helps stimulate the moving along of the used up food. Unfortunately, because of our nation's current inadequate consumption of fiber, the laxative/antacid isles grow more proliferous each year along with a lucrative profit for the pharmaceutical industry...


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## haley1

this is a great video

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6aMN6NLOTQ[/ame]


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## MoonRiver

haley1 said:


> this is a great video


He does the best job of explaining ketosis of any non-professional I have seen. His other videos are good as well.


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## MoonRiver

After the one great day, I had 2 really bad days. My fbg went back up to a little over a hundred and I felt jittery (on the inside). Someone on another board described it as feeling ickie and I agree. No weight loss for 5 days.

Since I knew I wasn't in ketosis, I decided to up my MCT oil. I had 2 tbsp in morning and 2 in late afternoon. About 5 pm I started feeling much better and my energy was much better. I also walked 5 miles. Prior to this, the most I had done was 2 miles. The MCT oil seemed to alleviate a lot of aches and pains plus increased energy.

I slept 6 hours straight which I hadn't done in 3 weeks. I still itch, which I think might be toxins being excreted through the skin. It seems to be a common occurrence of people when they first enter ketosis.

When I checked fbg this morning, it was in the 70's, down 20 points in 1 day. Keto stick indicated I was in ketotis (just barely. Was rewarded with a 1 lb loss.


MCT oil goes directly to kidneys and is turned into ketones.
Exercise causes ketones to be created.
Very low carb causes ketones to be created.
So I am doing about all I can, short of fasting. Last time I fasted 3 days and was miserable. I'm going to start intermittent fasting which is almost as good. I will eat breakfast around 11 am and dinner around 4 pm. That gives me an 18+ hour window of fasting.


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## Terri

Try to get enough sleep, Moon River. Your body works better when you do!


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## MoonRiver

Going to have a serious talk with my doctor. She should have figured this out 3 or 4 years ago.

When one is insulin resistant, glucose becomes resistant to insulin pushing it into cells. Your body responds by making more insulin. This still results in a lot of glucose in your blood stream that ends up getting stored in fat cells. This is why fat people who are insulin resistant keep getting fatter even when they eat the same amount. Too much glucose in the blood so it gets stored as fat. It's the exact same process as a marathon runner hitting the wall. It's just we fat people hit the wall in slow motion over a period of weeks instead of hours. Your body is worried it won't have enough glucose to feed your brain, your heart, and other vital organs and processes.

*When one is insulin resistant, fat burning is turned off. 

*This means when one is insulin resistant, their body creates more insulin to try to push the glucose into the cells, but the extra glucose gets stored as fat and then *can't be used as energy*. That's why I'm fat and this is what my doctor should have figured out. It is so simple I don't understand how the medical community could have it so wrong. When you are in glucose burning mode, if your glucose stores gets low, you will have intense carb cravings until you eat enough to build your glucose stores back up. That's why we tend to crave foods high on the glycemic index.

So what's the answer? Ketosis. 

In ketosis, your body switches to using ketones as the primary fuel. It still needs some glucose, which is why most ketogenic diets recommend about 5% of diet is carbs. So a person eats a high fat diet (about 75%), medium protein (about 20%), and carbs (about 5%). 

The reason protein has to be kept relatively low is because as much as 50% of protein intake can be converted to carbs. This is what always made my low carb diets fail. I was eating very low carbs, but my protein was probably about 50% of my diet. It was getting turned into carbs and I was not going into ketosis. And I had carb cravings. Surprise, surprise.

Think of ancestral man living in an area with a cold winter. During the summer into fall, he would eat a lot of carbs and fatten up. Then winter hits and his body switches over to fat burning. Over the winter he hunts for meat and lives off of that plus his stored body fat. In the late spring when he starts finding berries, his body switches back over to glucose burning.

Would it make sense for ancestral man to have carb cravings in the middle of winter? No, there were few carbs to be found. This tells me that if I am in ketosis, I will not crave carbs either.

Three basic ways to generate ketones


Foods - MCT oil, coconut oil, palm oil, grass fed butter,
Exercise - walking and weights are 2 excellent ones
Fasting - restricting carbs and protein seems to simulate fasting
I knew what my body was doing, but couldn't explain it so that it made sense to anyone else. Over the last few years, I have educated myself quite a bit and recently have watched about 20 videos that filled in most of my learning gaps. While I may have made some mistakes in terms or exactly how things work, I think the general concepts I explained are correct. If you are obese and want to lose the fat, get on a ketogenic diet. Get a blood glucose meter and ketone strips. Or if you can afford it, there is a blood test meter that tests both glucose and ketones (ketone test strips are expensive). Get your fbg below 70 and make sure your ketone strips indicate ketosis. And of course, talk to your doctor and educate them if necessary.


----------



## Terri

MoonRiver said:


> *When one is insulin resistant, fat burning is turned off.
> 
> *This means when one is insulin resistant, their body creates more insulin to try to push the glucose into the cells, but the extra glucose gets stored as fat and then *can't be used as energy*.
> [QUOTE/]
> 
> When you talk to your doc, leave the above statement off! Because the above is not true. Fat burning is *NEVER* turned off. Fat burning can be slowed down or sped up but not turned off
> 
> There is more than one way to encourage your body to burn more calories: ketosis will work but your doc's way will work also. OK, your doc's way is slower: that does not mean it will not work.
> 
> OK, you want to use ketosis: that would be a great thing to talk to the doc about. Ketosis is hard for me so I take the slow approach when I need to lose. You think ketosis is better for you and you may well be right.
> 
> There is no one true way for weight loss. There are more than one way to encourage weight loss and I have successfully used more than one of them. I do not use ketosis -ever- because it makes me nuts.
> 
> If you think that ketosis is a better fit for you then discuss it with her, but do not think she is wrong to suggest method that is easier for many of us.
> 
> This is not a right-wrong thing: for this you can both be right. Ketosis is faster and reduced calorie (for some of us) is less distressing. Do not dis the slow and sure because it does work, but you want to do ketosis.
> 
> I have only started the book you suggested, but I can tell you that one weakness is the sweeping statements. Yes their method is basically sound but it is not the only answer, and the book tends to discount other approaches even if they have proved to be every bit as effective.
> 
> The *OTHER* weakness is that when they speak of the standard treatment they are speaking of the standard treatment IN THE UK, which appears to be a different approach than the American one. OK, The book was published in the UK and they speak of the standard UK approach. So, that does not apply to anything out of the UK. You can safely skip anything the book says when it roasts the standard approach to diet because it only applies overseas.


----------



## MoonRiver

Terri said:


> MoonRiver said:
> 
> 
> 
> *When one is insulin resistant, fat burning is turned off.
> 
> *This means when one is insulin resistant, their body creates more insulin to try to push the glucose into the cells, but the extra glucose gets stored as fat and then *can't be used as energy*.
> 
> 
> 
> When you talk to your doc, leave the above statement off! Because the above is not true. Fat burning is *NEVER* turned off. Fat burning can be slowed down or sped up but not turned off
> 
> There is more than one way to encourage your body to burn more calories: ketosis will work but your doc's way will work also. OK, your doc's way is slower: that does not mean it will not work.
> 
> OK, you want to use ketosis: that would be a great thing to talk to the doc about. Ketosis is hard for me so I take the slow approach when I need to lose. You think ketosis is better for you and you may well be right.
> 
> There is no one true way for weight loss. There are more than one way to encourage weight loss and I have successfully used more than one of them. I do not use ketosis -ever- because it makes me nuts.
> 
> If you think that ketosis is a better fit for you then discuss it with her, but do not think she is wrong to suggest method that is easier for many of us.
> 
> This is not a right-wrong thing: for this you can both be right. Ketosis is faster and reduced calorie (for some of us) is less distressing. Do not dis the slow and sure because it does work, but you want to do ketosis.
> 
> I have only started the book you suggested, but I can tell you that one weakness is the sweeping statements. Yes their method is basically sound but it is not the only answer, and the book tends to discount other approaches even if they have proved to be every bit as effective.
> 
> The *OTHER* weakness is that when they speak of the standard treatment they are speaking of the standard treatment IN THE UK, which appears to be a different approach than the American one. OK, The book was published in the UK and they speak of the standard UK approach. So, that does not apply to anything out of the UK. You can safely skip anything the book says when it roasts the standard approach to diet because it only applies overseas.
Click to expand...

A couple of things:


I should have said *When one is insulin resistant, fat burning is turned off if there are other sources of energy. Your body will burn carbs and proteins before burning fat when it is in glucose burning mode.*
Here is a quote to back this up from the article linked below


> It becomes very inefficient at it. So, even though you've got 10, 30, 50, or 100 pounds of fat on your body, you can't burn it off. As explained by Zoe, one of the basic, fundamental principles is that â with few exceptions â *you cannot burn body fat if you have other fuel available*._"In the vast majority of the circumstances, if you've got carbohydrate available, either readily available â because you've just eaten carbohydrates â in the blood stream, or readily available in glycogen, of which we can store about 1,500 calories' worth; as long as you've got that, your body has absolutely no need to break down body fat whatsoever,"_ she says, adding:​



I didn't reference a book. That was HermitJohn I think.
 It must be serendipity because I just found this article in my mailbox this morning. It confirms most of what I said.

*What Really Caused the Obesity Epidemic, and How Can It Be Reversed?*


----------



## Terri

MoonRiver said:


> A couple of things:
> 
> 
> I should have said *When one is insulin resistant, fat burning is turned off if there are other sources of energy. Your body will burn carbs and proteins before burning fat when it is in glucose burning mode.*





Much better!
 Your doc appears to be making the carbs and proteins less available, which will make the body burn more of the fat. It is not on/off it is a sliding scale. And, for me it is the easiest way to lose weight. I eat more fish and the weight slowly slides off.

For you it might not be easier.


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## MoonRiver

Terri said:


> Much better!
> [/LIST]
> Your doc appears to be making the carbs and proteins less available, which will make the body burn more of the fat. It is not on/off it is a sliding scale. And, for me it is the easiest way to lose weight. I eat more fish and the weight slowly slides off.
> 
> For you it might not be easier.


My doc never gave me a diet plan She knew I did low carb and she was fine with that. What I am complaining about is I lost 50 lbs and had no cravings during the time it took. Then I started having severe cravings that wouldn't go away. I would eat high carb foods and put 10-20 lbs back on. Usually I was unable to get back on low carb for weeks as the cravings would come back within days of restarting low carb This has gone on for 10 years, about 6 years under her care.

Two years ago I went on a cancer diet that unknown to me put me into ketosis. I started with a 3 day fast and then followed the diet. I also used intermittent fasting which meant I ate all my meals within a 6 hour window. The weight just dropped off and I dropped in weight to 15 lbs below my goal weight.

When I learned I did not have cancer, I went off the diet. Not completely off, but cheats whenever I wanted. The cravings came back and within a year, I had gained all the weight back and more.

My doctor should have been able to put 2 and 2 together. Even though I didn't understand the relationship between insulin, glucose, ketosis, and cravings, she should have. That's what I was paying her for, to get me healthy. It was always try this and try that. I think if she would have taken an hour and just studied all the information she would have figured it out, but she never did that. Most doctors don't.

After spending years taking thousands of dollars of supplements, paying thousands for doctors appointments, and my health getting worse and worse, I should be mad and so should every fat person out there. Everything the medical community and the government has told us about obesity is a lie. Go on a diet and the result for the majority of people is you gain all the weight back plus more. Scientific fact. Exercise more? it just means you are less active during other parts of the day. Again, scientific fact. So diet and exercise fails just about every time it is tried, yet that's what we are told to do. If you are trying to lose 5 or 10 lbs, fine it might work, but if you are obese it won't work long term. 

From all the research I have done recently, the reason for obesity is well known and so is the solution. What does NIH do with all the money it gets? What do university research centers do with all the grant money they get? Who gives Michelle Obama the ridiculous ideas about school lunches?


----------



## HermitJohn

Terri said:


> I have only started the book you suggested, but I can tell you that one weakness is the sweeping statements. Yes their method is basically sound but it is not the only answer, and the book tends to discount other approaches even if they have proved to be every bit as effective.
> 
> The *OTHER* weakness is that when they speak of the standard treatment they are speaking of the standard treatment IN THE UK, which appears to be a different approach than the American one. OK, The book was published in the UK and they speak of the standard UK approach. So, that does not apply to anything out of the UK. You can safely skip anything the book says when it roasts the standard approach to diet because it only applies overseas.


What other non-drug way have you found that will allow one to defat their liver and allow body to get back to a non-diabetic state? Cause I sure havent found one. 

It was I that suggested the Holford book. He shows the weaknesses in the drug dependent treatment of diabetes, especially the drugs that cause the body to produce more insulin to try and overcome the insulin resistance, when its the excess insulin that does lot of the damage. And for most part these same drugs are used world wide, at least by those that can afford them.

And THAT is the American way of dealing with diabetes. Drugs, not diet. My doc put me on insulin and metformin and said knock off the sugar and eat smaller portions and fewer calories. That was it, no suggested diet plan, no referral to a dietician, just that. That is great way to make diabetic drug dependent for life. However most everything I found other than Holford was either the paleo fanatics who want everybody to somehow live entirely on organic grass fed meat as if everybody has access to such or can afford such, or the ones suggesting a high carb vegan grain diet (what got me into this mess in first place) hoping that will cause significant weight loss and I suppose defatting of ones liver before too much damage is done. 

In case of the meat fanatics, ignores the damage a super high protein diet can do to diabetic's kidneys and the preference by the body to first use the excess protein for fuel, rather than any existing fat, and in the vegan diets, ignoring continued damage from sugar spikes from the "healthy carbs". 

The "official" recommended diet for diabetics in USA is the low calorie, low fat, high carb way with tiny portion size, and with crossed fingers and the hope people can stick to it and lose enough weight before the continued blood sugar spikes do too much damage. Basically the typical recommended low fat american diet only with tiny portions. Nobody can stick to those silly low calorie high carb diets. YOu would have to have super human will power to fight the cravings, and then be able to stick to such the rest of your life. Its just not realistic.

Hey I am not super thrilled with the raw veggie diet (which is not specifically recommended in the book, but does meet his low glycemic load standard and is affordable), but it works and I dont have hunger pangs nor cravings for more food of any type. 

Somehow the raw veggies easily trigger the "full, stop eating" button that nothing else does. At this point I am getting used to it and my liver is now defatted enough that I can handle some carbs like some legumes and grains added to the salad without spiking after a meal. 

At this point if I went to a doctor who didnt know I had been diagnosed diabetic, I would most likely be diagnosed pre-diabetic with high probability of developing diabetes. And its a small enough amount added carbs to still keep glycemic load down. Its more satisfying and yet all the raw veggies still keep me from wanting more and more. So I can continue it a lifetime if necessary without feeling deprived, and no doubt it will be necessary. I cant go back to my grain heavy diet. Quickly go back into full diabetic mode if I did. And no desire to switch to some mostly meat diet. Nor some typical officially recommended high carb low fat mini portion mainstream diet.

Seriously I dont know anybody who can fight the carb cravings otherwise. Well maybe somebody in serious weight training, spending hours every day burning off calories. Again unless you are really into the mega workout thing, long term, like some modern day Jack LeLane, its not something most people can sustain.


----------



## MoonRiver

HermitJohn said:


> Seriously I dont know anybody who can fight the carb cravings otherwise.


Low carb, high fat works. The problem with protein is up to 50% can be converted to glucose. That's why high protein diets usually don't work.

I read just today that the cause of obesity and type 2 diabetes is high insulin. The problem with diets, according to this article, is that while they bring down glucose and reduce insulin, they don't bring down insulin resistance. And that the way to bring insulin resistance down is by fasting.



> All foods will increase insulin levels to some degree. Eating the proper foods will prevent high levels, but wonât do much to lower levels. Some foods that are better than others, but all foods still increase insulin. *The key to prevention of resistance is to periodically sustain very low levels of insulin. If all foods raise insulin, then the only logical answer is the complete voluntary abstinence of food. The answer we are looking for is, in a word, fasting.*


https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/all-diets-fail-how-to-lose-weight-xi/

I think that's why my cancer diet worked so well 2 years ago. I started it with a 3 day fast and then moved into the diet which was a low carb diet.


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## light rain

DisasterCupcake, I chose my name here because, truthfully, a light rain is good for growing raw, organic vegetables. I would love to know why you chose your name. :heh:

There is a thread here about origin of names but that was from awhile ago.


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## Terri

have been a diabetic for about 15 years, and I did figure out how to reduce insulin resistance. It was trial and error for me because they do not teach this stuff: or at least they did not back then.

To reduce insulin resistance, reduce the blood sugar in your body: especially the fasting blood sugar! Or, at least it did work well for me. So, instead of keeping your BS below a number, try to keep your fasting BS just above a rather low number. Since I often binge if my BS is in the 80's I shoot for a fasting BS of 90. I usually make it, too.

Yes, I am still a diabetic. But, my fasting BS hovers around 90, and if I eat something sweet not much happens and yet I am still a diabetic. This makes me think my insulin levels are behaving themselves!

Because I am a diabetic I cannot handle a rich meal and I am very aware that there is a limit to what my body can deal with. If I slightly overeat nothing happens and my BS stays steady, but if I greatly overeat my blood sugar *FIRST* goes through the roof and then to bounces up and down over the next 24 hours or so. In other words, my body can regulate itself but only up to a point and then my BS loses any pretence of being steady. 

I have nothing much to say about ketosis because I am afraid to put a strain on my body. My goal is to keep my BS low normal instead of high normal and if it drops any lower I feel badly and I am prone to cravings. So, ketosis is not for me! Instead of "loosing weight" I did a lifestyle change. I can lose *UP TO* 5 pounds a month but if I try for more I end up binging and then my blood sugar bounces all over the place!

I have noticed that my body functions better at the lower weights, and that my blood sugar stays low almost all of the time as long as I do not do something stupid, but it took me a while to get down to this weight. After 6 months I noticed that my BS was no longer going up and down much after I ate and I was maybe 30 pounds lighter at that time. Things just got better after that: the lower my weight got the less my blood sugar changed after I ate, but only up to a point! If I was stupid I would have blood sugar that bounced all over the place for 2 days or so as I had pushed my body further than it could cope with and so it malfunctioned! 

If I fast I end up binging and then my blood sugar is all over the place: the only way I can reliably lose weight is by doing a lifestyle change instead of a diet.

For what it is worth, eating fish or an egg in the morning helps to steady my blood sugar and acts to decrease my appetite. I often do this when I decide to lose a bit more. Regardless if I am trying to lose or not I try to only eat one carb exchange in the AM. To lose weight I eat the AM protein and a smaller lunch: skipping the AM protein and having a larger lunch is my maintenance diet. Timing counts! (At least for me)


----------



## HermitJohn

From the Holford book:



> (page 118) Contrary to popular belief, your liver is the organ that suffers most in diabetes, not your pancreas. According to Dr. Jacqueline Paltis in "The Sugar Control Bible", John Hopkins University found that in 5000 diabetics autopsied, only 2% had a degenerated pancreas, whereas 98% had damaged livers.





> (page 38) ...the liver has to work very hard converting excess glucose into fat, and a sluggish liver - whats called fatty liver disease - often lies behind the complications of diabetes. ... You can actually measure your livers ability to cope with processing the glucose by taking a simple blood test measuring two enzymes called AST and ALT. When your liver is making too much fat, these enzymes spill out into the blood , so your level will go up.


My take from this is that one wants to keep blood glucose as low as possible all the time, so the liver doent have to work as hard and can actually reverse course and clear itself plus the abdominal fat it changed all that excess glucose into.

And you dont have to be obese to have a fatty sluggish liver.


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## MoonRiver

HermitJohn said:


> From the Holford book:
> 
> My take from this is that one wants to keep blood glucose as low as possible all the time, so the liver doent have to work as hard and can actually reverse course and clear itself plus the abdominal fat it changed all that excess glucose into.
> 
> And you dont have to be obese to have a fatty sluggish liver.


I have been looking for a blood test that shows the level of insulin resistance, but there doesn't seem to be one. I might ask my doc to test for AST and ALT if medicare will pay for it.

Have you looked into fasting? I have been reading about fasting to reduce insulin resistance and am 23 hours into my fast right now. The doctor who writes the blog has recently posted about using fasting to cure type 2 diabetes.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/blog/


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## MoonRiver

Terri said:


> have been a diabetic for about 15 years, and I did figure out how to reduce insulin resistance. It was trial and error for me because they do not teach this stuff: or at least they did not back then.


How do you know you have reduced insulin resistance? Through diet you have reduced blood glucose levels, but why do you think that means you also reduced insulin resistance? I'm looking for a lab test that tests for insulin resistance.


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## HermitJohn

I will read your link. I dont know if fasting would be good thing for diabetic or not. I know I skip a meal and it will do weird stuff to blood sugar. However I know a true fast is different so ??? Thinking I read sometime back of one old diabetic guy that would fast for like four days before going to doc for lab blood test. It would give him a low FBS reading so doc didnt get on his case. Doing it just to please the doc and abusing oneself at other times is kinda stupid. But in attempt to defat liver faster, then going back to a low carb healthy diet, it might do that.


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## HermitJohn

Ok, gave quick read of https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/blog/ He has similar view to Holford, only bit more extreme with the fasting. I'll read some more.


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## Terri

MoonRiver said:


> How do you know you have reduced insulin resistance? Through diet you have reduced blood glucose levels, but why do you think that means you also reduced insulin resistance? I'm looking for a lab test that tests for insulin resistance.


I am halfway guessing, but it fits.

With insulin resistance your blood sugar tends to stay high because the sugar molecules resist going into the cells. And, when you eat something sweet your blood sugar immediately goes up for the same reason. This is what I have observed in myself

When I run my BS rather low for a while I can eat something sweet and I get less of a rise in blood sugar. So, the sugar is going somewhere, which to me indicates that the insulin is now doing its job.

I do not think there is a test for insulin resistance but I WANT one!


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## MoonRiver

Terri said:


> I am halfway guessing, but it fits.
> 
> With insulin resistance your blood sugar tends to stay high because the sugar molecules resist going into the cells. And, when you eat something sweet your blood sugar immediately goes up for the same reason. This is what I have observed in myself
> 
> When I run my BS rather low for a while I can eat something sweet and I get less of a rise in blood sugar. So, the sugar is going somewhere, which to me indicates that the insulin is now doing its job.
> 
> I do not think there is a test for insulin resistance but I WANT one!


Here's why I asked.



> Where most people assumed that there was a tight correlation between glucose levels and insulin levels, it turned out that_ only 23%_ of the variability in the insulin response was due to the glucose. In other words, only 23% of the insulin response is determined by how high the blood sugars rise. The vast majority of the insulin response (77%) is not related at all. Since it is insulin, and not glucose that drives weight gain, this changes everything. This is precisely where the glycemic index diets failed. They were targeting the glucose response with the assumption that the insulin response mirrored the glucose. But this is not the case. You could lower the _glucose_ response by diet, but you didnât necessarily lower the_ insulin_ response. In the end, it is only the insulin response that matters.


https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/atkins-decline-hormonal-obesity-part-xx/


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## HermitJohn

Its not glycemic index that you want to think about, its glycemic load. Anyway my FBS=90 this morning!!!!! Headed towards the 80s soon enough. Already been into the 80s couple hours after eating. But that early morning hormone thing that causes liver to dump bunch glucose into blood has kept FBS to 90 or above so far. My poor old fatty crudded up liver starting to fire on more cylinders.


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## MoonRiver

HermitJohn said:


> Its not glycemic index that you want to think about, its glycemic load. Anyway my FBS=90 this morning!!!!! Headed towards the 80s soon enough. Already been into the 80s couple hours after eating. But that early morning hormone thing that causes liver to dump bunch glucose into blood has kept FBS to 90 or above so far. My poor old fatty crudded up liver starting to fire on more cylinders.


My fbg was about 104 when I started 4 weeks ago. Now it is about 80. The morning after a fasting day it drops to about 70. Still a ways to go.


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## haley1

is anyone on metformin? Any side effects of that?


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## HermitJohn

I had quit metformin in June cause it really didnt seem to do much for me. At that time however I was injecting insulin. In July tried some chromium polynicotinate despite warning in book to not take it if injecting insulin. Hypoglycemic episode, passed out. Obviously effective. Weaned off the insulin (wasnt taking huge amount) and did the chromium alone. After upping the chromium to 1200mcg, (mcg=micrograms, not milligrams), was doing as well as I was on insulin. However I bought different brand chromium when I was getting low. It was useless. So while waiting on new bottle of orignal brand from amazon, went back on metformin. Ok, worked pretty good. Got to wondering if one could take both metformin (really cheap as a generic) and chromium together. Seemed ok. They both help make existing insulin in body more efficient, though in different ways. Neither promote body to make more insulin. Started taking both and together they work better than either did separately. Yes metformin can and probably will cause loose bowels at times and some gastric upset when you first start on it. The chromium polynicotinate has zero side effects and requires no prescription.


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## painterswife

HermitJohn said:


> I had quit metformin in June cause it really didnt seem to do much for me. At that time however I was injecting insulin. In July tried some chromium polynicotinate despite warning in book to not take it if injecting insulin. Hypoglycemic episode, passed out. Obviously effective. Weaned off the insulin (wasnt taking huge amount) and did the chromium alone. After upping the chromium to 1200mcg, (mcg=micrograms, not milligrams), was doing as well as I was on insulin. However I bought different brand chromium when I was getting low. It was useless. So while waiting on new bottle of orignal brand from amazon, went back on metformin. Ok, worked pretty good. Got to wondering if one could take both metformin (really cheap as a generic) and chromium together. Seemed ok. They both help make existing insulin in body more efficient, though in different ways. Neither promote body to make more insulin. Started taking both and together they work better than either did separately. Yes metformin can and probably will cause loose bowels at times and some gastric upset when you first start on it. The chromium polynicotinate has zero side effects and requires no prescription.


What brand of chromium?


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## HermitJohn

Oh should mention, metformin depletes vitamin B12. Take a serious B12 supplement if you take metformin. Doctor wont always tell you this, but if you google, you will find such warnings all over the place. The chromium supplement I found effective: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HM8CX2G Sure there are other brands.


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## HermitJohn

Should mention chromium polynicotinate is pretty safe. No known toxicity or side effects until you get up around 10,000mcg per day. There is no additional theraputic effect past like 2400mcg per day. And really most likely you wont notice much difference past 1200mcg. Use your meter to judge for yourself. The book suggests starting with 600mcg and going up to 1000mcg if 600mcg doesnt show any resullts. I just did the 1200mcg cause it was easier to automatically take two pills morning, noon, and night. Trying to remember when to take two and when to take one made it more complicated.


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## haley1

thanks john


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## Terri

I take metformin.

It helps to take the highs off of the highs, and it helps prevent my BS from getting too low. If you just look at the effect of the metformin it is only moderate, but when you add it to a diabetic diet is has been excellent for me. It means that I do not shake and feel sick if a meal is delayed. 

As for side effects, it did a number on my digestive tract until I got used to it. I had to increase the strength slowly until it was up to what my doc wanted.


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## MoonRiver

HermitJohn said:


> I had quit metformin in June cause it really didnt seem to do much for me. At that time however I was injecting insulin. In July tried some chromium polynicotinate despite warning in book to not take it if injecting insulin. Hypoglycemic episode, passed out. Obviously effective. Weaned off the insulin (wasnt taking huge amount) and did the chromium alone. After upping the chromium to 1200mcg, (mcg=micrograms, not milligrams), was doing as well as I was on insulin. However I bought different brand chromium when I was getting low. It was useless. So while waiting on new bottle of orignal brand from amazon, went back on metformin. Ok, worked pretty good. Got to wondering if one could take both metformin (really cheap as a generic) and chromium together. Seemed ok. They both help make existing insulin in body more efficient, though in different ways. Neither promote body to make more insulin. Started taking both and together they work better than either did separately. Yes metformin can and probably will cause loose bowels at times and some gastric upset when you first start on it. The chromium polynicotinate has zero side effects and requires no prescription.


Type 2 diabetes has a high cancer rate that goes with it and taking insulin increases the odds even higher. Some studies seem to indicate metformin may lower cancer risks and other studies say it has no effect. The problem with taking metformin is that at some point you may have to move to insulin. Like most medications, at some point your body will adjust to it and you need more and more. Best bet is to use diet and supplements. This isn't directed at you HJ, but thought it might make more sense attached to your post.


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## Terri

MoonRiver said:


> The problem with taking metformin is that at some point you may have to move to insulin. Like most medications, at some point your body will adjust to it and you need more and more. Best bet is to use diet and supplements. This isn't directed at you HJ, but thought it might make more sense attached to your post.


Taking metformin does not make diabetes worse, though some other meds can. Diabetes tends to get worse over time whether you take metformin or not. Or, so says my doctor.


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## MoonRiver

Terri said:


> Taking metformin does not make diabetes worse, though some other meds can. Diabetes tends to get worse over time whether you take metformin or not. Or, so says my doctor.


Like most drugs, you have to take more of the drug as your body builds resistance to it, just like a drug addict that needs more and more heroin to get the same high.

Ask your doctor what the likelihood is you will need insulin some day. Ask him how much the cancer rate increases for people on insulin. Ask him why he doesn't have a treatment to cure diabetes. Ask him if it can be cured through diet, since it was diet that caused it.


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## HermitJohn

Metformin is not insulin, it does not cause the body to produce more insulin. It reduces insulin resistance a bit. Its a crutch. It has unpleasant side effects and for small number people its actually deadly. Metformin contains a &#8220;Black Box Warning&#8221; from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) about a rare but potentially fatal side effect of lactic acidosis. Doctor is supposed to do tests before prescribing it, but few do. Mine didnt.

Now unlike a type 1 diabetic, a type 2 diabetic does not have a shortage of insulin, if anything they have an overabundance of insulin as the pancreas is trying to compensate for a dysfunctional sluggish liver.

Adding more insulin by injection or by drugs that increase the body's insulin production for a type 2 while doing nothing to improve liver function is stupid. It should only be used short term in a type 2 that has out of control blood sugar, to bring the blood sugar under control.

I kept asking my doc about the need to continue on insulin though in that first month my blood sugar was under control. He was convinced it was a fast way to get my fasting blood sugar under 100. Though he said I would probably do ok on metformin alone, it would just take longer.

Well it wasnt, I plateaued and only thing happening was that I was gaining weight like crazy. Gaining weight for an already overweight diabetic is not good. But it is usual side effect of injected insulin. Then I got hold of that Holford book and he was explaining why its not just blood sugar spikes, but excess insulin in a type 2 diabetic that causes the damage. Thus after the hypo event, I decided to wean off insulin entirely and try the chromium by itself. Not to mention insulin is VERY expensive. I will say that at first without the insulin, my system was very fragile. I had been doing fine substituting buckwheat for all other grains thanks to it being high in D-chiro-inositol. Now buckwheat was spiking my blood sugar. So went to the raw veggie and nut diet. Along with the chromium and some other vitamin/mineral supplements generally lacking in type 2 diabetics, I did as well as I had with the insulin and my old buckwheat diet. 

Obviously the raw veggie diet has let my liver start to clear itself and heal. I now have better sugar control back and like mentioned in another post, have hit 90 for fasting blood sugar. Its never a straight road down, for example I was 98 yesterday and 104 this morning. But the moving average is headed down. Not all that long ago when 104 would be the rare low, not just run of mill mediocre FBS reading. Obviously I am on the right track. If you stop abusing your dysfunctional liver and let it recover, you will get better. If you continue the abuse and refuse to change your habits, blood sugar control will get ever worse and large doses of insulin would be only alternative. That path, I think, is literally a dead end. And probably a sightless and legless one, with dialysis required towards that end also.


----------



## HermitJohn

Here is a nice readable page explaining metformin.

http://www.ems1.com/columnists/DrugWhys/articles/320302-Metformin-Glucophage-Drug-Whys/


----------



## Terri

MoonRiver said:


> Like most drugs, you have to take more of the drug as your body builds resistance to it, just like a drug addict that needs more and more heroin to get the same high.
> 
> Ask your doctor what the likelihood is you will need insulin some day. Ask him how much the cancer rate increases for people on insulin. Ask him why he doesn't have a treatment to cure diabetes. Ask him if it can be cured through diet, since it was diet that caused it.


Not all meds are alike: after 15 years on metformin my doc has just DECREASED my metformin.

I have discussed the rest of this with my doctors, with the exception of the risk of cancer: I just assumed that any med makes the risk of cancer go up a tad.

No, it was not my diet that caused the diabetes. It was the low fat diet that I was put on when my triglycerides went up that made it worse: high triglycerides is an indication of swings in blood sugar and in my case it was a sign that I was becoming carb intolerant. I no longer see that doctor. Again the low fat diet did not cause the diabetes: I was already showing signs of it before my diet was changed.

As for cures for diabetes, there isn't one yet. I have been watching for one. They have been doing some good work with mice but they are not far enough along yet to test on humans. 

You think that diet causes diabetes? I weigh 136 pounds and I was raised on plain food like meat and veggies. It isn't my diet that started the diabetes.


----------



## MoonRiver

Terri said:


> Not all meds are alike: after 15 years on metformin my doc has just DECREASED my metformin.
> 
> I have discussed the rest of this with my doctors, with the exception of the risk of cancer: I just assumed that any med makes the risk of cancer go up a tad.
> 
> No, it was not my diet that caused the diabetes. It was the low fat diet that I was put on when my triglycerides went up that made it worse: high triglycerides is an indication of swings in blood sugar and in my case it was a sign that I was becoming carb intolerant. I no longer see that doctor. Again the low fat diet did not cause the diabetes: I was already showing signs of it before my diet was changed.
> 
> As for cures for diabetes, there isn't one yet. I have been watching for one. They have been doing some good work with mice but they are not far enough along yet to test on humans.
> 
> You think that diet causes diabetes? I weigh 136 pounds and I was raised on plain food like meat and veggies. It isn't my diet that started the diabetes.


You say you were on a low fat diet. Low fat is another name for high carbs. I bet it was the carbs that caused the problem, not the low fat.


----------



## HermitJohn

I do think cause of type 2 diabetes is diet caused, plus a modern lifestyle lacking in regular high physical exertion. Both modern vegans and meat eaters tend to have far more carbs in their diet than our ancestors. Especially with the heavy promotion of low fat, high carb diet.

 You gum up your liver with fat and it becomes sluggish not efficiently converting excess blood glucose to abdominal fat anymore. So the glucose remains and builds up in the blood longer causing damage. Then you get your pancreas trying to compensate by flooding the system with insulin which also causes damage. Whole sugar control system then starts doing the odd diabetes kind of things.

And you dont have to be fat to have a fatty sluggish liver. Go back to my mention of the John Hopkins University study autopsying 5000 diabetics. 98% had liver damage, not pancreas damage. Coincidence?????

Although if you read about non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD) you get that its related to type 2 diabetes. For some reason you get them whim whawing around suggesting type 2 diabetes causes NAFLD, when its lot more logical to assume the reverse. A subset of NAFLD is nonalcoholic steatohepatitis (NASH) where there is definitely inflammation of liver and damage to liver cells. 

Again I would say some mild fatty liver disease damage is what brings on type 2 diabetes, not the other way around. By way though NAFLD and NASH are more common in obese people, 5% lean people get it too. Sure genetics has lot to do with that. Some people will just genetically have a higher tolerance for a high carb diet.

And again back to modern diet high in HFCS, guess what, high consumption of fructose is related to NAFLD and NASH.

Coincidence???? http://www.medicinenet.com/fatty_liver/article.htm#nonalcoholic_fatty_liver_facts


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## MoonRiver

It's all related to metabolic syndrome. It's a whole range of diseases, but basically it's you are insulin resistant.


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## haley1

John, thanks for all this information


----------



## Terri

John, you will believe as you wish.

I never used much high fructose corn syrup, either, as they are not yet putting it in broccoli or other non-processed food.


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## HermitJohn

No doubt being a lean person with diabetes, you are one of the small percentage (saw it estimated around 5%) of lean people that are genetically unlucky. 

But the ever expanding diabetes epidemic worldwide cant be explained by small percentage with unlucky genetics. Especially when it doesnt rapidly expand until a society becomes more economically prosperous and thus can afford an abundant modern very rich processed diet.


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## MoonRiver

I'm cutting back on the fat for a while. I always feel fine on low carb, but I always ate a lot more protein and less fat. I haven't felt right this time (a month now) and think my body might be having trouble digesting the fat. 

I'm going to add back in a daily high dose probiotic and start taking digestive enzymes. If I feel better after a few days of lower fat, I will slowly start increasing fat and lowering protein. I'm fasting today with just a cup or 2 of bone broth.


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## HermitJohn

Dont know what you are eating in way of fat. But might try more wild caught oily fish instead of other animal products?? Supposed to be a really healthy fat. Plus you live in a coastal state so assume you have such more readily available fresh?


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## Terri

My favorite fish recipe calls for drizzling the baked fish with melted butter, then adding salt and pepper. 

I am on vacation this week: my scale is at home! When I get back I will weigh myself and if (when) I need to take off any gained weight, I will eat more fish and more salad. That always helps me lose weight while still feeling good.

But that is just me!


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## MoonRiver

HermitJohn said:


> Dont know what you are eating in way of fat. But might try more wild caught oily fish instead of other animal products?? Supposed to be a really healthy fat. Plus you live in a coastal state so assume you have such more readily available fresh?


I think the problem is a ketogenic diet calls for about 70% fat to get into ketosis. I don't think my digestive system is up for 70% yet, so I'll back off some and then add back when stomach says it's OK. I was supplementing fat in meat with MCT oil, cream, coconut oil, evoo, pastured butter, bone broth, and macadamia nuts - not necessarily all in the same day.


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## HermitJohn

Hmm, different understanding then. I understood that body automatically goes into ketosis if there arent enough carbs ingested to supply the needed blood glucose for entire body. What glucose is available is reserved for those organs needing glucose, that cant use ketones for fuel.


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## light rain

What is bone broth?


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## MoonRiver

light rain said:


> What is bone broth?


Throw bones in a pot, cover with water, add a little apple cider vinegar, and simmer for hours.


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## light rain

So with the marrow (beef bones) there would be a substantial amt. of fat?

Read something today. I don't know of its accuracy. It said grapes help reduce insulin resistance. If their anti inflammatory and anti oxidant properties help insulin resistance it would seem a good thing to add in limited amts. to everyone's diet except dogs and cats...

My maternal grandfather was slim but was at the point of leg amputation when he passed away. 

Does anyone here have any experience with the accuracy of the a1C tests that are do it yourself at home? I believe the price is around thirty dollars for the two test box.


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## MoonRiver

light rain said:


> So with the marrow (beef bones) there would be a substantial amt. of fat?
> 
> Read something today. I don't know of its accuracy. It said grapes help reduce insulin resistance. If their anti inflammatory and anti oxidant properties help insulin resistance it would seem a good thing to add in limited amts. to everyone's diet except dogs and cats...
> 
> My maternal grandfather was slim but was at the point of leg amputation when he passed away.
> 
> Does anyone here have any experience with the accuracy of the a1C tests that are do it yourself at home? I believe the price is around thirty dollars for the two test box.


Directlabs offers the hb-a1c blood test at $39 with no prescription.


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## painterswife

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/...b-high-fat-diet-help-fight-diabetes/72923878/

"The morning that Bob MacEachron went to meet his new weight-loss doctor, the one he hoped would help him shed some of his 370 pounds, he sat down to what he thought would be a breakfast of lasts. The last time he would eat three jumbo eggs fried in butter. The last time he would enjoy bacon. He poured heavy cream in his coffee, girding himself for what he feared would be the last time he would whiten the drink with anything other than skim milk.

And then he met his doctor, who asked what he had eaten at his last meal.

âPerfect breakfast!â responded Dr. Sarah Hallberg to MacEachronâs surprise."


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## HermitJohn

> Read something today. I don't know of its accuracy. It said grapes help reduce insulin resistance. If their anti inflammatory and anti oxidant properties help insulin resistance it would seem a good thing to add in limited amts. to everyone's diet except dogs and cats...


 Grapes/raisins are one of the fruits that will spike diabetic's blood sugar quickly. Bananas are another. High glycemic load. Prunes oddly do not spike my blood sugar even if I eat four or five at a sitting. I think they are very high fiber (thus their traditional laxative properies). And they are the fruit with lowest glycemic load. I tried some fresh plums, but just ate one at a meal, so prunes were probably better test. If you want benefits of grapes without the sugar, I think vitamin companies sell some grape seed/skin extract???


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## HermitJohn

light rain said:


> Does anyone here have any experience with the accuracy of the a1C tests that are do it yourself at home? I believe the price is around thirty dollars for the two test box.


The A1C tells if there was a blood glucose spike in last several weeks. Personally I suspect it is way for doc to check on both patient's truthfulness and the accuracy of the glucose meter.

Not sure how valuable it is for patient's own info if they have own meter and test fasting blood sugar and then one hour after eating and two hour after eating. 

A truly healthy person will have fasting blood sugar around 80 to 85 and no matter what they eat barely top 100 at any time.

The accepted non-damaging values would be fasting blood sugar under 100 and no more than 140 one hour after eating and no more than 120 two hour after eating.

Most docs tend to just be happy if patient can manage to say under 200 all the time. There will at least be some damage anytime it goes over 140.

Oh and that link above isnt for a home kit, its for arranging an appointment at a local in-person blood testing lab without a doctor involved.


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## light rain

Thanks for the info. With my family history I think it prudent to start seeing just what I run and what foods spike my BS. 

I've only been to the doctor 1X in the last 2 yrs. and I'm trying to hold off 'til Medicare kicks in. Probably will make an appt. in the next 6 wks. but want to walk in with an a1C before I go in. It costs around $20.00 just for them to put the needle in the arm...


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## HermitJohn

Here seems to be two home options. First one you send by mail a blood sample and get results online. Second you do at home with materials to do two tests.

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Home-A1c-Diabetes-Test/dp/B00FW6PAR0

http://www.amazon.com/A1CNOW-SELFCHECK-TEST-DIAGNOSTICS-DIABETES/dp/B004N11OGQ


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## HermitJohn

By way if you get regular glucose meter, its not the meter that is the expense, its the strips. Meter with cheapest strips I found with accuracy I was happy with was Prodigy meter (it talks, but you can turn volume to zero) around $10, strips 10cents each on Amazon if you buy 6 box (300) at a time. Little higher per strip, if you only buy one box (50 strips) at a time. 

I have not seen any unexpired strips for any other meter sell for less than ten cents, or even that cheap. Course I am diabetic and measure frequently to check how I am reacting to things. If you are healthy and just experimenting on your own for few days or weeks, maybe strip cost doesnt matter so much. There are several that are around 15cents to 20ccents a strip. They go up from there. 

Also Amazon and online discount diabetic supply places usually lot cheaper than local brick and mortar stores. The meter the doc prescribed used strips that were like $1 each, and full retail they were $1.50 each. Thanks doc. buying my own 10 cent strips for cash was far cheaper than copay on those expensive strips plus I dont have to hassle getting prescription. 

Also be aware some strips are affected oddly by some foods. Cassia cinnamon for instance caused the Prodigy meter to give me a reading well over 200 when my other meter said 112. They usually agree. Ceylon cinnamon had no such effect. Go figure. Just saying the strip technology/chemistry between brands differ, and can occasionally be oddly affected by different things so dont get too excited if you get a wild reading once in a while. 

For any actual diabetic, I'd suggest keeping two different brand meters and strips around. The second just need a few strips on hand, to do a comparison on rare occasion your primary meter gives unusual reading.


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## light rain

Thanks HermitJohn. I looked at the second a1C option and I will do something like this. One of our local drugstores sells them for around thirty $'s and I'll pick one up in the next week. 

I like the idea of only myself knowing what the reading would be. I'll tell my DH so I hope it is within a good range because I have nagged him mercilessly about keeping his within a healthy range... 

I wonder if the readings concerning the cinnamon types is just specific to you or does this affect most people's bs. There has got to be an explanation for this.


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## HermitJohn

Neither cinnamon actually affects my blood sugar. Just the one affects that one particular brand glucose test strip chemistry and throws off the reading. Notice I said the second meter (different brand) gave normal reading. Other things may affect other brands chemistry. Cassia does contain significant amount coumarin where Ceylon doesnt. That maybe the difference. Go with whatever you find that is cheaper on the kind test you want. I just gave Amazon examples cause that is easiest place to find stuff and usually at good price. Plus you can read feedback. They sell darn near anything imaginable and what they dont sell, ebay does.


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## Shrek

MoonRiver said:


> The only time I have been successful at losing weight in the last 20 years is when I tried to get my fbg as low as I could. When I got my fbg into the 70's and even as low as high 50's, the weight came off fast and easily.
> 
> Usually I am good for a couple of weeks and then have overwhelming cravings that won't go away. When I got my fbg down, no cravings.
> 
> I gained all the weight I lost and then some and conventional dieting hasn't worked for me. So Friday, I go back on paleo (epi-paleo) with extremely low carbs and daily blood glucose testing. Once my body adjusts, I will start doing intermittent fasting, which just means I will eat only within a 6 hour window every day. Probably lunch around 10 am and dinner around 4 pm.
> 
> I spent some time thinking about what has worked and what hasn't. I thought I had cancer (and so did 2 doctors) a couple of years ago and I went on a diet specifically to fight cancer. The diet was geared toward driving blood glucose down as cancer feeds on glucose. Recently I have read that glucose in diabetics turns the fat burning gene off, so I'm theorizing that the reason I lost weight so easily when I lowered my FBG was because the fat burning gene got turned back on. When I added more carbs back into my diet, eventually I turned the fat burning gene off again. At least that's my theory.
> 
> If I make some progress, I will come back and post results. If I screw up, I won't!


 If you are a coffee drinker and use a drip or single cup maker you may be able to shave 25 or 30 points off your FBG number by reverting to a stainless steel stove top perk pot.

Studies indicate plastics release chemicals that increase blood sugar levels. Coffee drip and single serving makers are made of food grade plastic that gets hit with hot water while brewing the coffee.

When I reverted to perking my coffee in my stainless steel stove top pot in addition to using less coffee to make my 12 cups, after about two weeks away from the plastic drip maker my FBG dropped from 125 to 93.

When my blood sugar got to the 90s I started losing weight again and am now back below 200 , off metformin and have a fasting blood glucose level that is now in the 70s.

Since I have been using my perk pot for a few years and buying my soft drinks in non return glass bottles during the same time, last garbage day the dust covered Mr. Coffee maker went out with the trash.


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## HermitJohn

Shrek said:


> If you are a coffee drinker and use a drip or single cup maker you may be able to shave 25 or 30 points off your FBG number by reverting to a stainless steel stove top perk pot.
> 
> Studies indicate plastics release chemicals that increase blood sugar levels. Coffee drip and single serving makers are made of food grade plastic that gets hit with hot water while brewing the coffee.
> 
> When I reverted to perking my coffee in my stainless steel stove top pot in addition to using less coffee to make my 12 cups, after about two weeks away from the plastic drip maker my FBG dropped from 125 to 93.
> 
> When my blood sugar got to the 90s I started losing weight again and am now back below 200 , off metformin and have a fasting blood glucose level that is now in the 70s.
> 
> Since I have been using my perk pot for a few years and buying my soft drinks in non return glass bottles during the same time, last garbage day the dust covered Mr. Coffee maker went out with the trash.


Thats interesting. I imagine cooking in plastic in a microwave would have similar effects? And nearly all food is packaged in plastic anymore. Even tin cans are sprayed with plastic sealant inside. 

http://www.endocrineweb.com/news/diabetes/15750-can-chemicals-plastics-boost-teens-risk-diabetes

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/chemicals-used-in-plastics-linked-to-diabetes-in-women/

Not sure how one avoids food coming in contact with plastic anymore. Short of growing everything you eat and canning/freezing/storing it in glass.

At least I can say I never did like the electric automatic drip coffee makers. Last one I had never got water right temp to make good coffee. Switched to a stainless steel Revereware dripolator many years ago.

And when last microwave quit several years back, never replaced it.  Though mostly used it to pop corn and heat up mug coffee that had cooled. Didnt figure worth the bother and expense getting another one. It had gotten so they didnt last more than couple years.


----------



## painterswife

I wanted to tell you guys this. I have been following this thread and researching more.

I started a diet at the beginning of Augusts and was struggling. I did lose 8 pounds in 7 weeks but cravings were killing me. I am not diabetic - had labs done just before I started the diet.

Two weeks ago went on HFLC. Same calories just different foods. 4 pounds dropped off. Upped my salt so and fluids so I know it is not water weight. No cravings, no feeling like I need an afternoon nap. Even energy all day long.

I just want to thank all that are adding to this thread.


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## MoonRiver

For the 1st month, I felt "icky" on lchf. The weight was dropping and I fasted for several days with no hunger, but I just couldn't stand the way I felt.

I backed off the fats for a few days and almost immediately started feeling normal. Problem was I then wanted to eat everything in the house. I stayed low carb, but was eating macadamia nuts by the handful.

So I started upping the fat again. Even though I wasn't eating a lot of carbs, my fbg jumped back up over 100. This morning it was 96. I had gotten my walking up to 5 miles/day, but haven't walked much this week because of all the rain. Exercise lowers bg, so that's probably part of the problem.

Looks like it's going to be a dance to find the right balance of fat and protein. Too much fat and I feel icky, too much protein and I get cravings, too little fat and I get hungry. The good news is I had my coffee with butter and mct oil this morning and it is now almost noon and still not hungry.


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## painterswife

I don't feel icky at all. I get a bit of a cold in the throat feeling right after I eat my brunch meal but I get it to go away with some salt and water. For me the amazing thing is no cravings.


----------



## Shrek

Hermit John,

Your correct about most foods and all canned goods being packed in plastics. While avoiding all plastics in contact with food and the blood sugar raising effect, steps can be taken to reduce the exposure.

A nurse familiar with it was the one who first told me to look for my soft drinks in glass as the carbonation in soft drinks adds to the leeching from the polyester bottles. 

She also said the microwave effect can be greatly reduced by taking foods out of the packaging and microwaving the food on microwave safe stoneware plates or in cookware.

When I nuke a TV dinner I put it on a stoneware plate and cover it with a shallow stoneware steamer tray I found that fits my dinner plates.

Although my soft drink of choice is Dr. Pepper as I buy it in glass manufactured in Texas with cane sugar instead of HFCS and bring 15 to 20 cases home with me after visiting down there, it has minimal effect on my blood sugar. While it costs me more, I figure the better taste and health factor make it worth it to me

She also said while drinking water is a good step in lowering blood sugar, tap water lowers it better than drinking bottled water as bottled water is packaged in plastic.


----------



## haley1

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...2_ranart_bisphenol-a-canned-goods_facebookdoc

Here is an article with links to who uses and who does not use BPA lined cans


----------



## Maura

Twenty years ago I went on the Carbohydrate Addictsâs Diet. Lots of salad, very low carbs. I lost one pound a week, like they said, but my food allergies were so bad at that time that I just couldnât stay on it. Still, Iâve watched the carbs and watched the weight keep piling on.

I have had low blood sugar for decades, now Iâm reading that it is insulin resistance that is the problem. Iâm going back to the low carb diet, but adding more fat. I do have more energy on a high fat diet. I need to loose fifty pounds (1/3 of my weight).


----------



## MoonRiver

painterswife said:


> I wanted to tell you guys this. I have been following this thread and researching more.
> 
> I started a diet at the beginning of Augusts and was struggling. I did lose 8 pounds in 7 weeks but cravings were killing me. I am not diabetic - had labs done just before I started the diet.
> 
> Two weeks ago went on HFLC. Same calories just different foods. 4 pounds dropped off. Upped my salt so and fluids so I know it is not water weight. No cravings, no feeling like I need an afternoon nap. Even energy all day long.
> 
> I just want to thank all that are adding to this thread.


I think what happens is when you reduced your calories, you slowly reduced the glucose stored in your liver. Your body protected itself by creating a craving for carbs so you would replenish the glucose store. In ancestral man, this was nature telling him to get off his butt and go find some berries and roots and maybe a fish.

I haven't found this documented anywhere, but until I find a better answer, I'm sticking with it. 

When you switch over to fat burning, your body will create whatever glucose it needs.


----------



## MoonRiver

Ghee! I bought a jar about a month ago to take on camping trips. I can cook with it, use it like butter, add it to coffee/cocoa, and it doesn't need refrigeration. (Recommended to refrigerate 2 weeks after opening).

Since the rain has indefinitely postponed my trip to the Outer Banks, I opened the jar this morning and added some to my coffee. It killed my hunger almost immediately. I usually add butter and never got this type of effect. 

I didn't eat all day and started getting hungry around 4 pm. Made some cocoa and added ghee. Same thing. No hunger an hour later.

I had 4 great weeks and lost 27 lbs, then a bad week and gained 3 back and was hungry all the time. I think ghee is getting me back on track. 

Most of you would make your own ghee, but I bought mine on Amazon.


----------



## painterswife

MoonRiver said:


> Ghee! I bought a jar about a month ago to take on camping trips. I can cook with it, use it like butter, add it to coffee/cocoa, and it doesn't need refrigeration. (Recommended to refrigerate 2 weeks after opening).
> 
> Since the rain has indefinitely postponed my trip to the Outer Banks, I opened the jar this morning and added some to my coffee. It killed my hunger almost immediately. I usually add butter and never got this type of effect.
> 
> I didn't eat all day and started getting hungry around 4 pm. Made some cocoa and added ghee. Same thing. No hunger an hour later.
> 
> I had 4 great weeks and lost 27 lbs, then a bad week and gained 3 back and was hungry all the time. I think ghee is getting me back on track.
> 
> Most of you would make your own ghee, but I bought mine on Amazon.


You should have posted this 1 hour ago. I was holding the ghee in my hands trying to decide to buy it or not.


----------



## MoonRiver

> Susannah Mushatt Jones, 116, keeps a steady diet of bacon, eggs and grits for breakfast. A sign in her kitchen reads: âBacon makes everything better.â


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ldest-woman-116-eats-bacon-everyday/73444660/


----------



## Terri

HermitJohn said:


> I was diagnosed full blown uncontrolled type 2 diabetic back in April. I have made amazing progress, but still very much a diabetic.
> 
> You do have to keep carbs down. Right now I eat three chopped veggie salads with sunflower seeds every day. Thats it. Been amazing that I have trouble getting those three salads down, I really only want to eat twice a day. My appetite has went away. I have also been taking some supplements that are usually low in diabetic. Something lot diabetics dont realize and docs dont mention, metformin will deplete B-12.
> 
> Keeping carbs down was only realistic way I was going to give my body time to heal. I am hoping someday I can add back some carbs, the salad diet does get kinda old. Raw veggies are amazingly filling and stay with me longer than cooked. Then unsweetened herb teas for warm drink to sip on. Caffeine in coffee will bump up my blood sugar.
> 
> Here is book I have found very helpful: http://www.amazon.com/Say-No-Diabetes-Preventing-Reversing/dp/0749955899
> 
> I however got my copy used off half.com, shipped for well under $10. Holford is very logical and balanced in his approach. Info not always organized as well as it could be, so plan on reading this multiple times. But his book and attitude impressed me while lot other diabetic books didnt seem very logical or practical at all.


I have since read the book, and it is a pretty good book. The only thing that stops it from being a great book is the authors approach that his way is the ONLY way. For example, his diet is very good but it is not "The gold standard of diets". There are other diets that are just as effective. More seriously, he disparages any approach OTHER THAN dietary, and that could do great harm if somebody stops taking their meds because the author explains that diabetes meds can be dangerous or even deadly. 

Yes, the author does say to talk to your doctor first, but if a person comes into the doctors office and says that they need to go off of the meds ASAP, and will not consider anything else, then the patients health will often he harmed. Because, while ALL meds are dangerous, they are not as dangerous as diabetes! And a great many type 2 diabetics flat out need their meds to avoid loosing their sight and their feet. For some of us diet is not enough.

Actually, if it were not for that detail, I would recommend that every diabetic go out and buy the book, because the vast majority of the book is GOOOOOD!


----------



## HermitJohn

Thanks for the honest review Terri.

I've read various books on diabetes. The Holford one is only one I found that made lot sense to me. Its not perfect, not a super well orgainized book, but at least its logical, and isnt advocating some way out there theory with nothing to back it up. Nor just another diet book dressed out as a diabetes book.

He does say several times not to go off your medication without consulting your doctor. Some medications, insulin included, have to be gradually weaned off of. Stopping cold turkey can be bad idea unless you are on a very low dose already. 

Saying that, the patient has ability through glucose meter to see results of any change in diet or medication far sooner than doctor. I personally have tried various things without consulting doctor, but also had read up as to what to expect. I do not have blind faith in any doctor (or book) and dont feel great need to run to him and ask: "Mother, may I.." for every little thing. I have a brain too.

I am at point now that I am pretty stable, and only really have to do the two readings after a meal, if I add something new to my diet. No great improvements lately. Its just now a waiting process, hoping my body does continue to improve sugar control so I can expand my diet some. Only raw salad and nuts three times a day does get bit old after a while, though it will be major part of my diet here on out I think.

My biggest problem currently is that some days if I am involved in a project, I will forget to eat and skip a meal. This isnt good, but on other hand doesnt seem to hurt anything too much at this point, maybe some slightly higher than normal readings. Not like it would have been couple or three months ago.


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## HermitJohn

MoonRiver said:


> http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ldest-woman-116-eats-bacon-everyday/73444660/


At 116, think you could take up smoking, heroin and probably about any other bad habit imaginable. Still not greatly affect your life span as you are already living entirely on borrowed time.


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## Terri

There was one gent in the nursing home who had a shot of whisky daily. In order for us to give it to him he needed a doctors order, so the doc cheerfully wrote him one for one shot of whisky daily.


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## MoonRiver

Had a setback. I was losing weight, but didn't feel right. Backed off the fat and immediately starting feeling better - and hungry. For the 1st few days, I stayed low carb, but ate everything in the house. Then I went to the store and ate everything in the store.

Finally back under control and making some changes. I've been reading about resistant starch which is found in some foods. It isn't digested and goes to the large intestines where it is used as food by good bacteria. The easiest way to increase the amount of rs in the diet is to add potato starch.

For the last week I have added some rs foods and last night added potato starch. I've also increased the amount of onions, celery, garlic, etc in my diet, while staying generally low carb. I'm also eating cooked - cooled - reheated potatoes and rice. Cooking removes most of the rs in foods, so this method increases the amount of rs. Also small portions of corn and peas which are also sources of rs.

RS lowers blood glucose. After having 2 tbsp of potato starch before bed last night, my fbg this morning was 80.

What I'm going for is gut health which some studies link to obesity. RS also lowers bg, so that is another goal. And I'm still staying relatively low carb and high fat. So far, I am losing weight and feeling good.


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## Maura

Well, since changing my diet, adding 1,000 mg or 2,000 mg of flax seed oil to make sure I&#8217;m getting enough fat, I have lost five pounds. That&#8217;s great, but even better, I&#8217;ve kept it off.


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## painterswife

Today is my one month LCHF anniversary. Lots 9 pounds. 3 the first week and 2 the last three weeks. I had lost 10 pounds over the two months before.

The difference is I and not hungry and I don't crave the carbs and sugar that always derailed me. This is a new way of life for me. I don't see the need to go back after I lose what I want. The key for me is preparation. Sunday I make a bunch of items for breakfast, lunches and snacks. That way I don't take junk to work. I also plan dinner out at least two days in advance. I had one slip when I did not plan dinner and I did not like it.


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## HermitJohn

MoonRiver said:


> Finally back under control and making some changes. I've been reading about resistant starch which is found in some foods. It isn't digested and goes to the large intestines where it is used as food by good bacteria. The easiest way to increase the amount of rs in the diet is to add potato starch.
> 
> For the last week I have added some rs foods and last night added potato starch. I've also increased the amount of onions, celery, garlic, etc in my diet, while staying generally low carb. I'm also eating cooked - cooled - reheated potatoes and rice. Cooking removes most of the rs in foods, so this method increases the amount of rs. Also small portions of corn and peas which are also sources of rs.
> 
> RS lowers blood glucose. After having 2 tbsp of potato starch before bed last night, my fbg this morning was 80.
> 
> What I'm going for is gut health which some studies link to obesity. RS also lowers bg, so that is another goal. And I'm still staying relatively low carb and high fat. So far, I am losing weight and feeling good.


So how about just eating raw potatoes?


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## MoonRiver

HermitJohn said:


> So how about just eating raw potatoes?


Tastes a lot better cooked. 

Bacon and eggs with hash browns! Grilled steak and baked potato!


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## light rain

HermitJohn, your post about borrowed time comes at the top of the page so I see it every time I read this thread. So I just got to reply.

I disagree that it makes no difference what a 116 yr. old does as far as life span. If they want to live another 2 yrs. or 5 yrs. all of the things you listed will have a negative effect on their desires. There was a lady in France that sold her house with the legal clause that the owner wouldn't take possession until after her death. I think she was in her late '90's. She lived in her own house until her death at age 124. 

Whatever a person's age is we are all living on borrowed time. There are no guarantees. The best we can do is take care of the body/mind/soul we have and be grateful for experiences lived...


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## HermitJohn

MoonRiver said:


> Tastes a lot better cooked.
> 
> Bacon and eggs with hash browns! Grilled steak and baked potato!



I think YOU mentioned that cooking greatly lessened resistive starch effect?? And reheating only moderately increased it again? Or did you give up on your resistive starch theory?


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## HermitJohn

light rain said:


> HermitJohn, your post about borrowed time comes at the top of the page so I see it every time I read this thread. So I just got to reply.
> 
> I disagree that it makes no difference what a 116 yr. old does as far as life span. If they want to live another 2 yrs. or 5 yrs. all of the things you listed will have a negative effect on their desires. There was a lady in France that sold her house with the legal clause that the owner wouldn't take possession until after her death. I think she was in her late '90's. She lived in her own house until her death at age 124.
> 
> Whatever a person's age is we are all living on borrowed time. There are no guarantees. The best we can do is take care of the body/mind/soul we have and be grateful for experiences lived...


The triple digit folk I've seen personally are ones in nursing home that look like a warmed over corpse and they wheel out for the birthday party. And the idiot local reporter with big silly grin always asks them what they did to live so long. I imagine if they could move a significant amount and were close to a sharp object, the reporter's life would be greatly shortened. They tend not to look all that happy at having out lived all their family and friends and can barely move.

Now the rare old fart that is still both physically and mentally active and can still live on their own, might want more years. But I think most that old are getting kinda tired of life.


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## light rain

It is not my goal to live to one hundred. But if someone else wants to do that more power to them. 

Most people will need some assistance in living on their own, whether it be transportation, home and yard upkeep, bill paying, etc. That is to be expected. 

My point in responding to your post is that unwise eating/drug/alcohol habits will have a negative impact no matter what age a person is. And the impact is not only on the person involved but also on their family, friends and society in general... 

I am not a real big fan of nursing homes but I see their necessity. I would like to hear how other countries address their aging populations. There must be more options to be explored in living arrangements...


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## MoonRiver

HermitJohn said:


> I think YOU mentioned that cooking greatly lessened resistive starch effect?? And reheating only moderately increased it again? Or did you give up on your resistive starch theory?


I mix 2 tbsp of potato starch with yogurt and that gets me most of the resistant starch I need. The rest I get from reheated potatoes and rice.


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## RebelDigger

Came on specifically to find this thread and thank the OP. I read the whole thread through last October, watched the video Butter Makes Your Pants Fall Off, did a little research and started the diet for both myself and hubby. As of today, Dh has lost 35 pounds and I have lost 47. Thank you!


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## MoonRiver

I'm finally back on track after several false starts. I wish I knew why sometimes it is so easy and sometimes so hard.

I am trying to do alternate day fasting and so far it has been easy.

I don't eat all 1 day and then not until about 11 am the next with a small dinner around 4 pm. On my fast days I do have some MCT oil, ghee, and cream in my coffee. 

Just got back from doctor and ldl was through the roof. HDL and triglycerides were fine. I believe what happens is when you start losing fat, the ldl stored in the fat gets dumped into the blood stream, so for the 1st month or so ldl may go up. I wish I knew what mine was 2 weeks ago. Supposedly if I keep the fasting up, ldl should go down about 25% in 70 days.


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## Linda Palmer

My numbers were high also only in the morning between 115-120. But during the day in range of 90-104. After 6 months my doctor asked me about my sleeping I told her I know I snore,. She had me take a sleep apnea test. Well, come to find out I have it. After 3 months now on the machine my numbers are low in the morning. 90-95, she has also taken me off my pills now. Also i found I have more energy than before also.


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## Terri

Welcome! I did not know that about sleep apnea!

Though, Linda? Are you sure you want your Full Name on the World Wide Web? I worries me that somebody might realize who you are and then know where you live. The Administration would change your on-line name if you asked them to.


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