# Perspective - Cops are the dogs.



## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

There is a lot of discussion lately on why Cops do what they do - both bad and good.









Read the scrolling text at the end, for the perspectivet on why the are the dogs.

WARNING

There are _two_ vulgar words in this otherwise provocative video, on Law Enforcement.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zyhOW-8Zcc&sns=fb&app=desktop[/ame]


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

Good afternoon plowjockey...this is one of those videos causes a pause to run through my entire body. Not sure what to think, until I read the end script. I had not thought of it in those terms before. 

I know the system is broken, I know a certain type of attitude and world view is required to even consider a job in law enforcement, and sadly, being on the job or any length of time makes one jaded. Sitting in the comfort of my home, my children safe, it is easy for me to form opinions. 

I have seen the abuse of power and authority, my family beat beyond recognition because of their reputation...and I have seen an officer sitting with my son at 3:30 am when his tire blew on a very busy freeway in a dangerous part of town. In his security job uniform, with no cell phone, my son had no way to contact us. No way to safely get out of his car. We went looking for him...if not for the officer and his lights, we would have gone by him. 

For now, at this moment in time, I am safe and secure...I know the police are there if I call. And while I am frightened of the abuse of power, etc . I am glad they are here. It is a fine line, protection and a sense of security ( false?) or an eventual police state. 

My mind is numb from all the info.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

I understand what he's saying, but it reinforces the "us against them" mentality. For things to improve police have to convince the public that we're all in this together.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

If they are dogs, lets call them Livestock Protection Dogs. Yes, I want them around.
Ox


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

I was raised to respect the police and to think of them as friends.

Life is different now.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Nevada said:


> I understand what he's saying, but it reinforces the "us against them" mentality. For things to improve police have to convince the public that we're all in this together.



When it come to law abiding citizens verses criminals, when_ isn't_ it "us against them"? Our relationship with Cops, that's the one we want. How many of us gets angry, at the Cop, when we get pulled over for speeding?

Personally I have zero tolerance for those who resist arrest, which incidentally, is a crime.

Guilt or innocence is determined in a court of law, not at the side of a dark road.

Certainly there are "bad Cops", but there are probably many who put self preservation, as a high priority any more.

I can't pretend I don't understand why.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

plowjockey said:


> When it come to law abiding citizens verses criminals, when_ isn't_ it "us against them"?


You see it as law abiding citizens vs criminals, but since the police can't always tell who the criminals are they sometimes assume everyone who isn't wearing a police uniform is a criminal. If they think that way it's us against them.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

KentuckyDreamer said:


> Good afternoon plowjockey...this is one of those videos causes a pause to run through my entire body. Not sure what to think, until I read the end script. I had not thought of it in those terms before.
> 
> I know the system is broken, I know a certain type of attitude and world view is required to even consider a job in law enforcement, and sadly, being on the job or any length of time makes one jaded. Sitting in the comfort of my home, my children safe, it is easy for me to form opinions.
> 
> ...


My point was to take a look at the _big picture_, which I'm glad that you did.

We don't like the Cops even though the are only the "messenger" of the "message" we don't want to hear, which our society is a lot more violent, dangerous and nasty, than in the Past.

The Fictional _Sheriff Andy Taylor_, from Mayberry NC, is the Cop we wish we really could have. 

I just wonder how long he could survive patrolling the streets and road of today and could he keep his great demeanor.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

plowjockey said:


> My point was to take a look at the _big picture_, which I'm glad that you did.
> 
> We don't like the Cops even though the are only the "messenger" of the "message" we don't want to hear, which our society is a lot more violent, dangerous and nasty, than in the Past.
> 
> ...


Things have changed, so we need police reforms to keep up with those changes.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Nevada said:


> You see it as law abiding citizens vs criminals, but since the police can't always tell who the criminals are they sometimes assume everyone who isn't wearing a police uniform is a criminal. If they think that way it's us against them.



You're right, but so what, if they do?

As truck driver, Cops hit me with the speed gun, same as everybody else. If I'm not speeding (too much), I don't get pulled over.

I have been questioned about crimes I knew nothing about. When that fact was determined, I was no longer questioned.

I might be crazy, but i have found that when i don break laws, the Cops pretty much leave me alone.

And before anyone plays a _race card_, if one was a young black man, on the street at midnight, when young black men are reported breaking into homes, in the area, should the cops be stopping and questioning young white men?


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Things have changed, so we need police reforms to keep up with those changes.


What kind of reforms do you want?

If a suspect is resisting arrest, there is usually _milliseconds,_ to decide the proper course of action.

Should the Cops just let them go if they resist? That is a reform that would appeal to many.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

plowjockey said:


> You're right, but so what, if they do?
> 
> As truck driver, Cops hit me with the speed gun, same as everybody else. If I'm not speeding (too much), I don't get pulled over.
> 
> ...


I'm not really talking about highway traffic law enforcement here. This is about inner-city police policy.


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## J.T.M. (Mar 2, 2008)

WHOA .... and Im only 32 sec. into it .


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

plowjockey said:


> What kind of reforms do you want?
> 
> If a suspect is resisting arrest, there is usually _milliseconds,_ to decide the proper course of action.
> 
> Should the Cops just let them go if they resist? That is a reform that would appeal to many.


Most large city police departments have created a highly competitive culture, where police are rewarded with promotions for high value arrests. That's become a problem because the emphasis is on making as many arrests and charging people with as serious of an infraction as possible. I think they should go back to a strict seniority system.


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## J.T.M. (Mar 2, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Most large city police departments have created a highly competitive culture, where police are rewarded with promotions for high value arrests. That's become a problem because the emphasis is on making as many arrests and charging people with as serious of an infraction as possible. I think they should go back to a strict seniority system.


if you have ever worked in a union you'd know how badly the seniority system stinks . As an aside : They kind-a are hired to make as many arrest as possible ... arn't they ~ shrugs shoulders ~


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Nevada said:


> I'm not really talking about highway traffic law enforcement here. This is about inner-city police policy.


I know exactly what your are talking about, which exemplifies the problem

There are 20 million blacks, living in the inner city. They are not all, beaten, tazed and shot.

Why is that?

The fat, black suspect, Eric Garner, that died from a heart attack, had been arrested 30 times, for crimes such as assualt and larceny?

Was he put into a "choke hold", every time he was arrested? 

Personally, If I was a Cop, I'd rather just put a a pair of handcuffs, of a 350 pound criminal suspect, verses getting into a dangerous wrestling match with them.

But I'm not a Cop.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Most large city police departments have created a highly competitive culture, where police are rewarded with promotions for high value arrests. That's become a problem because the emphasis is on making as many arrests and charging people with as serious of an infraction as possible. I think they should go back to a strict seniority system.


LOL

Selling "loosies" (loose cigarettes) is a high value crime?

I have never heard of what you are referring to. Can you elaborate?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

plowjockey said:


> You're right, but so what, if they do?
> 
> As truck driver, Cops hit me with the speed gun, same as everybody else. If I'm not speeding (too much), I don't get pulled over.
> 
> ...


And it may be that you don't get pulled over because there's not enough money involved. Interstate runs directly through the middle of my county. The sheriffs dept is much more likely to pull over the 20 something in the older vehicle doing 8 mph over than it is the late model SUV with out of state plates cruising north to the vacation cabin 15 mph over. Why? Maybe because the chance of calling out the drug dog to find drug residue in the ashtray will generate more income than a simple speeding ticket. 

I have no issue with police questioning people who meet the description of reported offenders. I will believe race has no issue in such stops when white suburban police departments stop and check students leaving the good school at the same rate that black students walking home get stopped and checked on the walk home in the city.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

J.T.M. said:


> if you have ever worked in a union you'd know how badly the seniority system stinks .


I was a corporate employee where seniority wasn't a factor. You would think that a merit system would be a lot better than a seniority system, but the person with the most merit was always the person with the brownest nose.



J.T.M. said:


> As an aside : They kind-a are hired to make as many arrest as possible ... arn't they ~ shrugs shoulders ~


I hope not. Helping people and making the city safe would seem to be more important. But if you judge success by how many are behind bars then I can't change your mind.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

plowjockey said:


> LOL
> 
> Selling "loosies" (loose cigarettes) is a high value crime?
> 
> I have never heard of what you are referring to. Can you elaborate?


It was pretty obvious that taking him off the street was important to the cops. I suspect that there were political reasons for the take-down. Someone important wanted that guy off that street corner.


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

I know a am skewing this argument to the extreme but....my fear is the direction this could take.

If in the future, it is illegal to homeschool my child and they come for him, do you not think we are not going to run? If more than a three day food supply is illegal do you not think I am going to hide it, direct my family to run, etc? The lengths to which I could go to protect my sons, could be seen as resisting arrest. 

Right now, life is so good...and I may be paranoid, but it is my concern. Glad to see the discussion, it really does make a difference.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> It was pretty obvious that taking him off the street was important to the cops. I suspect that there were political reasons for the take-down. Someone important wanted that guy off that street corner.


Political reasons? What are you talking about? 

I do think the take down was beyond what was appropriate.


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## J.T.M. (Mar 2, 2008)

Nevada said:


> I was a corporate employee where seniority wasn't a factor. You would think that a merit system would be a lot better than a seniority system, but the person with the most merit was always the person with the brownest nose.
> *A slacker in will always assume that the person who got promoted kissed butt for it . *
> I hope not. Helping people and making the city safe would seem to be more important. But if you judge success by how many are behind bars then I can't change your mind.


*Hmmmm I suppose your right ... I wonder how a cop goes about making a city safe (?) *


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

J.T.M. said:


> *Hmmmm I suppose your right ... I wonder how a cop goes about making a city safe (?) *


Guess they could hand out cookies and give hugs :buds:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

J.T.M. said:


> *Hmmmm I suppose your right ... I wonder how a cop goes about making a city safe (?) *


You really don't know?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> I do think the take down was beyond what was appropriate.


When you see something like that you have to assume that there's more to know about the story. This seemed to be a "come on buddy, move along" sort of thing, yet there were multiple cops there ready to use force. I'm wondering why the media isn't asking more questions about that.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> And it may be that you don't get pulled over because there's not enough money involved. Interstate runs directly through the middle of my county. The sheriffs dept is much more likely to pull over the 20 something in the older vehicle doing 8 mph over than it is the late model SUV with out of state plates cruising north to the vacation cabin 15 mph over. Why? Maybe because the chance of calling out the drug dog to find drug residue in the ashtray will generate more income than a simple speeding ticket.
> 
> I have no issue with police questioning people who meet the description of reported offenders. I will believe race has no issue in such stops when white suburban police departments stop and check students leaving the good school at the same rate that black students walking home get stopped and checked on the walk home in the city.


No, I don't think so. trucks get pulled over for speeding, all of the time.

I hate to go against the "crowd" rolleyes: ), but driving 8MPH over is BREAKING THE LAW! I see plenty of nice SUVs pulled over too.

Also, if you do get pulled over and they bring out the drug dogs, they won't find much, IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY ILLEGAL DRUGS!

I'm going to really go out on a limb and state if people started obeying THE LAWS, negative interactions with LE would reduce significantly. 



> same rate that black students walking home get stopped and checked on the walk home in the city


I have not heard this (seriously). What are they checking for?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> When you see something like that you have to assume that there's more to know about the story. This seemed to be a "come on buddy, move along" sort of thing, yet there were multiple cops there ready to use force. I'm wondering why the media isn't asking more questions about that.


Thing is he might have been asked to move along, the store owner wanted him gone. The law in itself is unnecessary, should be removed.

The media asked plenty of questions, guy had a long rap sheet, pretty much career criminal back on the streets.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

KentuckyDreamer said:


> I know a am skewing this argument to the extreme but....my fear is the direction this could take.
> 
> If in the future, it is illegal to homeschool my child and they come for him, do you not think we are not going to run? If more than a three day food supply is illegal do you not think I am going to hide it, direct my family to run, etc? The lengths to which I could go to protect my sons, could be seen as resisting arrest.
> 
> Right now, life is so good...and I may be paranoid, but it is my concern. Glad to see the discussion, it really does make a difference.


If homeschooling becomes illegal, then it's the LE responsibility to enforce the laws.

You certainly could run, but you be braking more laws, while will not necessarily improve the situation. You'll have to do what you feel you must.

This reminds me of a point I heard on the radio, of how counterproductive it is - in the long, to resist arrest.

Eric Garner was suspected of selling loose cigarettes, likely a nuisance misdemeanor crime, probably little punishment. He resisted arrest, causing an intense physical confrontation, in which he had a heart attack.

Even if he didn't die, he may likely have faced resisting arrest, assaulting an Officer and other more severe charges, with much more severe penalties.

What would have been the upside - if any, to his behavior?


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## J.T.M. (Mar 2, 2008)

Nevada said:


> You really don't know?


No I don't , I had thought that maybe , just maybe , doing the job they were hired to do would help . Maybe they could hand out cookies and give hugs like no really had suggested ...Im at a loss 
~ shrugs ~


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Nevada said:


> When you see something like that you have to assume that there's more to know about the story. This seemed to be a "come on buddy, move along" sort of thing, yet there were multiple cops there ready to use force. I'm wondering why the media isn't asking more questions about that.


You live in Las Vegas.

How long does it take for 6 cops to appear from nowhere?


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Too many people feel the need to be on one side or the other. There is a lot of ground in between. I like cops, in general. I especially like those who I consider "classical" cops, some might call them old school, but there are plenty of young ones who fit the description, too. They do the job because they want to serve people and maintain law and order, not because they want to exert power over others. I like the imagery of the sheep/sheepdog/wolf story. It's fitting, and those who are good sheepdogs are worthy of our respect, and especially the respect of those sheep who delegate their own safety to the sheepdogs. My only caveat is this: when the sheepdog starts going after the sheep, it's no longer a good sheepdog and must be dealt with.

ETA: I guess I have one other caveat to the whole metaphor. Sheep are livestock. People are not livestock and should not act like livestock and allow themselves to be treated as livestock. But that's on the people.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

plowjockey said:


> No, I don't think so. trucks get pulled over for speeding, all of the time.
> 
> I hate to go against the "crowd" rolleyes: ), but driving 8MPH over is BREAKING THE LAW! I see plenty of nice SUVs pulled over too.
> 
> ...


http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6271038

Here's some info on stop and frisk. I know you'll point out that if you don't have illegal drugs you have nothing to fear from being stopped and frisked, right? But everyone is protected from illegal search and seizure. Walking down the street shouldn't be probable cause. One of the biggest problems policies like this set up are a negative feedback loop. Get stopped and ticketed for even a minor offense and you find yourself navigating the criminal justice system. This takes time, effort and money that all take away from more positive ventures and goals. Need to go to court, miss a day of school. Hearing delayed, miss another day later. Miss enough school, fall behind. Fall far enough behind get further discouraged. Etc., etc. ....... Issues the kids in the white, upper middle class neighborhoods don't have to deal with even though studies show they are just as likely to be using drugs as their counterparts in other areas of the same city. The cops aren't individually racist. The policy in and of itself isn't racist. But focusing the efforts in certain areas certainly affects people of different races disparitly.

As to my point about the local sheriff's traffic enforcement policy. The point of that radar gun should be to control unsafe speeding, not as pretext for drug searches.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> I have no issue with police questioning people who meet the description of reported offenders. I will believe race has no issue in such stops when white suburban police departments stop and check students leaving the good school at the same rate that black students walking home get stopped and checked on the walk home in the city.


Do you think the crime rate is higher around the good school or the bad school? Why would police concern themselves in areas with few or no problems? Would you spend your time fishing at a pond where you never caught any fish? If you notice, those black kids they stop are males unless they have a particular issue with a certain female. Same reason, that is the criminal element. If it was racial in the least, they would stop blacks of any color or age but they don't.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6271038
> 
> Here's some info on stop and frisk. I know you'll point out that if you don't have illegal drugs you have nothing to fear from being stopped and frisked, right? But everyone is protected from illegal search and seizure. Walking down the street shouldn't be probable cause. One of the biggest problems policies like this set up are a negative feedback loop. Get stopped and ticketed for even a minor offense and you find yourself navigating the criminal justice system. This takes time, effort and money that all take away from more positive ventures and goals. Need to go to court, miss a day of school. Hearing delayed, miss another day later. Miss enough school, fall behind. Fall far enough behind get further discouraged. Etc., etc. ....... Issues the kids in the white, upper middle class neighborhoods don't have to deal with even though studies show they are just as likely to be using drugs as their counterparts in other areas of the same city. The cops aren't individually racist. The policy in and of itself isn't racist. But focusing the efforts in certain areas certainly affects people of different races disparitly.
> 
> As to my point about the local sheriff's traffic enforcement policy. The point of that radar gun should be to control unsafe speeding, not as pretext for drug searches.


Your link points to something about Gay peace, but stop and frisk, is not illegal in the U.S.(mostly), apparently deemed as "reasonable" search.

One is fine if they disagree with it, but an encounter with LE, is really not the best place, to challenge the law.

About the time required to _navigate_ the justice system, that life.

If you get a speeding ticket, chances were real good, you were speeding. pay the fine by mail. If you were not speeding, fight the ticket or pay it if you are not willing to fight. It's that simple. Cops make mistakes sometimes.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

plowjockey said:


> You live in Las Vegas.
> 
> How long does it take for 6 cops to appear from nowhere?


In the resort areas, not long at all.

But Las Vegas has already been singled-out by the department of justice, and changes have been made. We still have a problem, but police shootings are way down through new training, new policies, and police cameras.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

I wonder if the DOJ would ever go after a PD for not enough shootings....


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

poppy said:


> Do you think the crime rate is higher around the good school or the bad school? Why would police concern themselves in areas with few or no problems? Would you spend your time fishing at a pond where you never caught any fish? If you notice, those black kids they stop are males unless they have a particular issue with a certain female. Same reason, that is the criminal element. If it was racial in the least, they would stop blacks of any color or age but they don't.


Studies show that those white school kids use illegal drugs at the same rates that minorities do. Given that you should have equal percentages of whites, blacks and Hispanic youths being arrested and charged. Why aren't they? Because you have more anglers, to use your metaphor, in some neighborhoods than others. Would the crime rate increase in those other neighborhoods if more anglers fished there?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

plowjockey said:


> Your link points to something about Gay peace, but stop and frisk, is not illegal in the U.S.(mostly), apparently deemed as "reasonable" search.
> 
> One is fine if they disagree with it, but an encounter with LE, is really not the best place, to challenge the law.
> 
> ...


The question isn't really about whether it is legal or not. I'll leave that to another thread. The question is is if it was applied equally in all neighborhoods would the arrest rates and issues involved with those arrests equal out across the races? If you only hunt east of the Mississipi river your chance of bagging an elk are greatly diminished.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

jtbrandt said:


> Too many people feel the need to be on one side or the other. There is a lot of ground in between. I like cops, in general. I especially like those who I consider "classical" cops, some might call them old school, but there are plenty of young ones who fit the description, too. They do the job because they want to serve people and maintain law and order, not because they want to exert power over others. I like the imagery of the sheep/sheepdog/wolf story. It's fitting, and those who are good sheepdogs are worthy of our respect, and especially the respect of those sheep who delegate their own safety to the sheepdogs. My only caveat is this: when the sheepdog starts going after the sheep, it's no longer a good sheepdog and must be dealt with.
> 
> ETA: I guess I have one other caveat to the whole metaphor. Sheep are livestock. People are not livestock and should not act like livestock and allow themselves to be treated as livestock. But that's on the people.


Whose call is it, on what constitutes a "good sheepdog"?

A very large man - of questionable health, suspected of committing a crime, physically resists arrest and is "taken down" for handcuffing using a choke-hold. He dies from the stress - that he himself caused. What were they supposed to? Even if they had not applied the choke-hold, the suspect may have had a heart attack anyway.

So are the Cops involved "bad Cops"? Was Daniel Pantaleo a bad Cop? he had some earlier legal issues, but looking at how fast people are to sue, for "civil right violations", is he any better or worse than the rest?



> In another case, Rylawn Walker alleged that Pantaleo, along with other cops, falsely arrested him on Staten Island for alleged marijuana possession two years ago even though he was not acting in a suspicious manner.





> Similarly, Kenneth Collins, of Staten Island, alleged in a lawsuit that Pantaleo and other police officers subjected him to "a degrading search of his private parts and genitals by the defendants" in February 2012.


http://www.christianpost.com/news/d...prior-to-eric-garners-chokehold-death-130768/

*NYPD Lawsuits Rise Dramatially; Lawsuits Against New York City Cost $550.4 Million In Last Fiscal Year*





> A large chunk of that over half a billion dollar figure-- a five percent increase over the year before-- stems from lawsuits brought against the New York Police Department. Lawsuits against the NYPD cost city taxpayers $185 million, more than any other city agency.





> Using a report conducted by City Comptroller John Liu, _The Daily News_ reports there were 8,882 lawsuits against the NYPD, a dramatic 35 percent increase over the previous fiscal year.
> Between July 1, 2011, and June 30, 2012, *the NYPD reportedly paid $22 million to settle civil rights cases made against officers. *


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...rise-70-new-york-city-resident_n_2370111.html


Perhaps we are witnessing the growth of a new industry - Civil Rights lawsuits. 

Perhaps Mr. Garner was considering getting his _slice of the pie_, but did not plan for the unexpected.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

If 75% of crime and 911 calls are focused into a given area, and it happens to be a black community, should the police spread out equally throughout their entire jurisdiction or concentrate their efforts where statistics show the majority of crime is being committed?

On the other hand, suppose the "equal" patrolling was the policy. Does anyone think there wouldn't be a huge uproar for not caring about the black community sufficiently? The cops would be accused of everything from racism to cowardice. sharpton & jackson would be holding protests demanding more police protection. holder would be investigating why "his" people weren't being protected. obama would make a speech decrying the unjustified neglect of the police' duty.

In other words, they can't win.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Ozarks Tom said:


> If 75% of crime and 911 calls are focused into a given area, and it happens to be a black community, should the police spread out equally throughout their entire jurisdiction or concentrate their efforts where statistics show the majority of crime is being committed?
> 
> On the other hand, suppose the "equal" patrolling was the policy. Does anyone think there wouldn't be a huge uproar for not caring about the black community sufficiently? The cops would be accused of everything from racism to cowardice. sharpton & jackson would be holding protests demanding more police protection. holder would be investigating why "his" people weren't being protected. obama would make a speed decrying the unjustified neglect of the police' duty.
> 
> In other words, they can't win.


But how do you measure the crime. When stop and frisk programs target specific areas the rates of those crimes reported goes up. That increased crime rate can then justify using more resources and making more stops in that area. I'll ask the question again, even though it cannot be definitively answered, would the rate of arrests for minor drug possession be the same if enforcement were equalized? I have no problem with higher rates of police coverage in troubled areas and police responding to crimes. I do have a problem justifying things like stop and frisk by citing a higher incidence of crime in one area as compared to another when those crimes are only being looked for in one area.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> I do have a problem justifying things like stop and frisk by citing a higher incidence of crime in one area as compared to another when those crimes are only being looked for in one area.


.

Here is the rationale behind stop-and-frisk that explains it perfectly. It's not intended to go after minor drug users, but certainly they will be busted if caught.

Illegal guns are a big part of it too, something not that prevalent in white suburbia.

All thing are certainly _not_ equal, for obvious reason.

*The theory behind stop and frisk*



> The broken windows theory is a criminology theory of the norm-setting and signaling effect of urban disorder and vandalism leads to additional crime and anti-social behavior. The theory states that maintaining and monitoring urban environments in a well-ordered condition may stop further vandalism and escalation into more serious crime. Consider this example: An abandoned building with a few broken windows. Alone it poses no threat. However a few vandals come along and spot these broken windows and decide to break more of them. The building, because of its condition later gets vandalized with spray paint. Since it looks completely run down, a few homeless people break in. With time, they light fires, destroy the inner workings of the building and become squatters. This domino effect is the premise behind the broken windows theory. Minor crimes, if left unnoticed, will eventually escalate into bigger, more serious crimes. This is the same theory that the NYPD policy uses. *The New York Police department's program intends on stopping people in high crimes areas to search for weapons and other substances. The programâs purpose is to remove guns off the street before they are used in more serious crimes.* In the context of this allegory, the NYPD aims to fix the broken windows before the squatters get in.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-and-frisk_in_New_York_City


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

plowjockey said:


> .
> 
> Here is the rationale behind stop-and-frisk that explains it perfectly. It's not intended to go after minor drug users, but certainly they will be busted if caught.
> 
> ...


Seems like a lot of wasted effort for an increase of 96 guns removed from the streets. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...pons-recovered-tons-weed-smokers-jailed.shtml.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

http://rt.com/usa/stop-frisk-whites-drugs-weapons-667/

Or maybe they're just looking in the wrong neighborhoods. Seems like whites who were stopped were more likely than blacks or Hispanics to have weapons or drugs.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> Studies show that those white school kids use illegal drugs at the same rates that minorities do. Given that you should have equal percentages of whites, blacks and Hispanic youths being arrested and charged. Why aren't they? Because you have more anglers, to use your metaphor, in some neighborhoods than others. Would the crime rate increase in those other neighborhoods if more anglers fished there?


You have yet to refute the fact that black neighborhoods generate more calls for cops because the crime rate is higher there. Yes, white kids use drugs too, but how many whites do you see selling drugs on the corner and how many are dumb enough to carry them regularly in their backpacks? Pick 50 black kids and 50 white kids at random and stop and search them. Which group is more likely to be carrying drugs or weapons? You know the answer if you know anything about US cities. There's a reason you seldom, if ever, see cops stop a student of any color in small towns walking home from school. It's simple. We DO NOT have school shootings, gang shootings, or in school drug problems very often. A couple times a year they bring in the drug dogs and check all backpacks and lockers. They generally find nothing.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> Seems like a lot of wasted effort for an increase of 96 guns removed from the streets. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...pons-recovered-tons-weed-smokers-jailed.shtml.


Not saying my number are any more truthful than yours, but they sure are different.

*NYPD cops seized nearly 400 guns during stop-and-frisk encounters in past year, lowest tally since 2003*





> *When the NYPD first released the number of weapons seized from stop-and-frisks in 2003, cops seized 633 guns*. Last year was the first time that fell below 600, according to the NYCLU analysis.


http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...00-guns-stop-and-frisk-year-article-1.1911273


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

plowjockey said:


> Whose call is it, on what constitutes a "good sheepdog"?


Pick me, pick me!



> A very large man - of questionable health, suspected of committing a crime, physically resists arrest and is "taken down" for handcuffing using a choke-hold. He dies from the stress - that he himself caused. What were they supposed to? Even if they had not applied the choke-hold, the suspect may have had a heart attack anyway.


This paragraph is getting into the weeds...so I guess I'll venture a little out there too. What were they supposed to do? Attempt to de-escalate before escalating. They did a little, but not enough. There was very little verbal attempt to get him to comply. The police stood passively while they waited until they had enough people to be able to overpower him physically. Then there's the aftermath of taking him down where they did little for him, but seemed to be getting their ducks in a row to cover their own butts.

Maybe he would have had a heart attack anyway. That's irrelevant. What might have happened doesn't matter. What did happen matters. Everybody dies eventually...would it be a good argument for a murder suspect to say, "If I hadn't stabbed him, he might have died today anyway"? I know...that would be silly.



> So are the Cops involved "bad Cops"? Was Daniel Pantaleo a bad Cop? he had some earlier legal issues, but looking at how fast people are to sue, for "civil right violations", is he any better or worse than the rest?


I'm not sure this one incident is enough to determine if they are completely bad cops, but they as a group certainly weren't good during the incident. This was not being sheepdogs. There was no wolf threatening the sheep. There was a St. Bernard selling loosies...allegedly.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

poppy said:


> You have yet to refute the fact that black neighborhoods generate more calls for cops because the crime rate is higher there. Yes, white kids use drugs too, but how many whites do you see selling drugs on the corner and how many are dumb enough to carry them regularly in their backpacks? Pick 50 black kids and 50 white kids at random and stop and search them. Which group is more likely to be carrying drugs or weapons? You know the answer if you know anything about US cities. There's a reason you seldom, if ever, see cops stop a student of any color in small towns walking home from school. It's simple. We DO NOT have school shootings, gang shootings, or in school drug problems very often. A couple times a year they bring in the drug dogs and check all backpacks and lockers. They generally find nothing.


If you'll take the time to read the link I just posted you'll find that in New York the statistics from the stop and frisk program showed that whites were more likely than blacks or Hispanics to be carrying weapons or contraband when stopped. I'm glad you live where all the kids are so well behaved. Here in rural, central Wisconsin our kids have the same problems and access to drugs and alcohol as most places. And it seems that a lot of school shootings ,like Columbine and Cazenovia, WI, were perpetrated by white kids.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

NYC being the Liberal mecca, it is, I would not be surprised that those complaining loudly about stop and frisk, also complain loudly about being mugged, or having their apartment burglarized and why the Cops won't "do anything about it".

Or, to top it off, those complaining the loudest, live in nicer neighborhoods, where it is not implemented.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

plowjockey said:


> Not saying my number are any more truthful than yours, but they sure are different.
> 
> *NYPD cops seized nearly 400 guns during stop-and-frisk encounters in past year, lowest tally since 2003*
> 
> ...


The numbers are the same. Those 600 or so weapons seized are an increase of of less than 100 over years before stop and frisk was instituted. Now let's do a little math. For each weapon found almost 1200 people had to be stopped and searched. Consistently almost 90% of those stopped were guilty of nothing other than walking down the street. Whites were more likely to be in violation than minorities. Please, defend it some more.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

jtbrandt said:


> I'm not sure this one incident is enough to determine if they are completely bad cops, but they as a group certainly weren't good during the incident. This was not being sheepdogs. There was no wolf threatening the sheep. There was a St. Bernard selling loosies...allegedly.


I think you could pick a Cop anywhere - good, or bad and IMO they would probably tell you they don't take resisting arrest, lightly.

They probably like to keep their teeth in their mouth and their gun in their holster. When a suspect is not complying with LE, neither are a given.

Selling illegal cigarettes is not a dangerous crime, but it is a crime, that the suspect was being arrested for.

It's ok to resist arrest, if the crime is not violent?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

plowjockey said:


> NYC being the Liberal mecca, it is, I would not be surprised that those complaining loudly about stop and frisk, also complain loudly about being mugged, or having their apartment burglarized and why the Cops won't "do anything about it".
> 
> Or, to top it off, those complaining the loudest, live in nicer neighborhoods, where it is not implemented.


Maybe if the cops weren't making 650,000 or so fruitless stop and frisks they could concentrate on stopping things like muggings and burglaries. If each of those encounters took one officer only 5 minutes we're talking in excess of 50,000 man hours for nothing.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> Maybe if the cops weren't making 650,000 or so fruitless stop and frisks they could concentrate on stopping things like muggings and burglaries. If each of those encounters took one officer only 5 minutes we're talking in excess of 50,000 man hours for nothing.


I dunno. 

I'm not a criminal (mostly), but I don't think I'd mug someone, or break into a house, if the Police were nearby. 

just sayin.

You say it's "for nothing", but are less guns and drugs making it to the streets, because of the stops?


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

plowjockey said:


> I think you could pick a Cop anywhere - good, or bad and IMO they would probably tell you they don't take resisting arrest, lightly.
> 
> They probably like to keep their teeth in their mouth and their gun in their holster. When a suspect is not complying with LE, neither are a given.
> 
> ...


No, it's not OK to resist arrest if the crime is not violent. I've never even remotely suggested as much. But the police should use the force that is necessary to effect the arrest and not more. I believe they escalated the situation beyond what was necessary AT THAT MOMENT. It could have gotten to the point where it would be necessary anyway, but they skipped ahead. I'll say again, this was not sheepdogs against a wolf. It has little to do with your OP. I have to admit, though, if I were a cop and somebody rolled their eyes at me as much as you do, I'd want to choke them...but I wouldn't.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

plowjockey said:


> I dunno.
> 
> I'm not a criminal (mostly), but I don't think I'd mug someone, or break into a house, if the Police were nearby.
> 
> ...


And those same officers could be on the same streets detering the same crimes rather than having 9 out of every ten people they choose to stop and frisk for some "probable cause" walk away with no violation other than that which was perpetrated on them. A whole spectrum of things could be made much safer and a whole slew of illegal substances could be removed from the streets if we give the police and authorities the power to stop and search everyone at any time on the vague notion that they might be right 10% of the time. You also keep failing to address why if whites are more likely to be in violation they are less likely to be stopped and searched? It is interesting how so many here who fear a police state and argue against intrusive government are willing to have one imposed on others.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> LOL
> 
> Selling "loosies" (loose cigarettes) is a high value crime?
> 
> I have never heard of what you are referring to. Can you elaborate?


Since the city made it a crime by not paying taxes on them sure it is a high value crime.The cops would like wrighting a ticket but the higher up said arrest him anyway they can.
High vlaue crimes can be anything the Mayor, city council or ploice chief said is high value crime.


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2014)

"It is interesting how so many here who fear a police state and argue against intrusive government are willing to have one imposed on others." 

But in reality they celebrate the police state it soothes their fears. When in truth police will not protect you, They will investigate an already committed offense, arrest after the fact and collect bounty on the multitude of cash cow ordinances. Police visibility and unconstitutional search and seizures (IMHO) deter a minimal amount of real crime.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

And if he had not resisted arrest he would still be alive today. Simple as that.


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2014)

arabian knight said:


> And if he had not resisted arrest he would still be alive today. Simple as that.


Yep and the standard you accept as resistance shows just how cowardly we have become.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

arabian knight said:


> And if he had not resisted arrest he would still be alive today. Simple as that.


I dunno he had enough health issues there were no guarantees...


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

arabian knight said:


> And if he had not resisted arrest he would still be alive today. Simple as that.


That's why he is partially responsible for his own death. Letting himself get so unhealthy also makes him partially responsible. But neither of those things excuse the police.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> I know exactly what your are talking about, which exemplifies the problem
> 
> There are 20 million blacks, living in the inner city. They are not all, beaten, tazed and shot.
> 
> ...


Sometimes cuffs don't fit!!!


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

poppy said:


> Do you think the crime rate is higher around the good school or the bad school? Why would police concern themselves in areas with few or no problems? Would you spend your time fishing at a pond where you never caught any fish? If you notice, those black kids they stop are males unless they have a particular issue with a certain female. Same reason, that is the criminal element. If it was racial in the least, they would stop blacks of any color or age but they don't.


Post of the day award.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> But how do you measure the crime. When stop and frisk programs target specific areas the rates of those crimes reported goes up. That increased crime rate can then justify using more resources and making more stops in that area. I'll ask the question again, even though it cannot be definitively answered, would the rate of arrests for minor drug possession be the same if enforcement were equalized? I have no problem with higher rates of police coverage in troubled areas and police responding to crimes. I do have a problem justifying things like stop and frisk by citing a higher incidence of crime in one area as compared to another when those crimes are only being looked for in one area.


Maybe Guilliani was lying, I doubt it, but while he was mayor crime dropped considerably. Not just a little but a bunch.
He used the 'stop & frisk' & 'broken window' methods & murders went down huge per cents. Thousands were NOT killed b/c of his policies.
But, carry on.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Tricky Grama said:


> Post of the day award.


Even though NYC's own numbers show a higher percentage of fish caught in white ponds than minority ponds? Remind me never to go fishing with you.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> Seems like a lot of wasted effort for an increase of 96 guns removed from the streets. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...pons-recovered-tons-weed-smokers-jailed.shtml.


I suppose a liberal would think that but it the DECREASE in murder that tells the tale.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> Maybe if the cops weren't making 650,000 or so fruitless stop and frisks they could concentrate on stopping things like muggings and burglaries. If each of those encounters took one officer only 5 minutes we're talking in excess of 50,000 man hours for nothing.


I guess if you don't consider the thousands who used to be killed b/4 this program, then yup, a waste...


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

It's easy to second guess, and I've never been a cop, but if I were the arresting officer I'd have waited until I had overwhelming force on my side and just say "Mr. Garner, take a look at the odds against you. If you resist this isn't going to end well for you. Now, please put your hands behind your back so I can cuff you". If he didn't, then it's time to forcibly restrain him.

I'm not surprised by the number of white people caught with guns in high risk areas. Most likely they were there to buy drugs. If they're buying drugs they've got money, which makes them a target for every thug on the block. I'm not excusing them, just explaining the likely reason they were armed.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

jtbrandt said:


> No, it's not OK to resist arrest if the crime is not violent. I've never even remotely suggested as much. But the police should use the force that is necessary to effect the arrest and not more. I believe they escalated the situation beyond what was necessary AT THAT MOMENT. It could have gotten to the point where it would be necessary anyway, but they skipped ahead. I'll say again, this was not sheepdogs against a wolf. It has little to do with your OP. I have to admit, though, if I were a cop and somebody rolled their eyes at me as much as you do, I'd want to choke them...but I wouldn't.


You are welcome to _beleive_ whatever you want, as far was was appropriate action for Police. I sure your are qualified, on LE procedures.

Me I'm not a Cop and i was not there, so I don't feel qualified to judge their actions, one way or another.

Do you really think any smart Cop is stupid enough, to argue with a suspect, on whether they should be under arrest, or not? I hope not.

FWIW

I would never roll my eyes, at a Cop, especially one who had me under arrest. That would just be ignorant and would accomplish nothing positive.

The reason these negative interactions with Cops occur, because people are stupid and selfish.

A good start is to not break the laws, in the first place.

There, no "rolleyes"


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

JeffreyD said:


> Sometimes cuffs don't fit!!!



Some LE start carrying zip ties, for the fatties, or use two pair.


http://www.ammoland.com/2014/01/138690/#axzz3LMJYXVq4


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Not only THAT but why was there 4 cops?
Guess some didn't see the report that that scum started tossing those cops around like Rag Dolls.
Gee why is THAT not on Prime time news?
THAT is why the officer Jumped on him and Held his head DOWN~! And that 350 Pounder with such bad health just expired away~! There is NO Sympathy form me for that heavy dude that could not keep life in him, and all you that think the cops are too tough PUT yourself in THAT situation with a guy throwing your fellow officers around like that and see if you would not be holding His Head DOWN. Died, well don't resist don't sell smokes like that and stay living.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> And those same officers could be on the same streets detering the same crimes rather than having 9 out of every ten people they choose to stop and frisk for some "probable cause" walk away with no violation other than that which was perpetrated on them. A whole spectrum of things could be made much safer and a whole slew of illegal substances could be removed from the streets if we give the police and authorities the power to stop and search everyone at any time on the vague notion that they might be right 10% of the time.


Huh?

Exactly where do you think NYC Cops are performing stop and frisk? Somewhere else other than out on the streets? How many thugs leave guns and contraband at home, because they know they will be frisked?



mmoetc said:


> You also keep failing to address why if whites are more likely to be in violation they are less likely to be stopped and searched?V


I don't even know what your are talking about, so I can't address it. 

If most of the people getting stopped are Mexican or black, guess who makes up of most of the population of NYC?



mmoetc said:


> It is interesting how so many here who fear a police state and argue against intrusive government are willing to have one imposed on others.


I fear criminals, not the Police, Criminals are the problem. If it were not for the criminals, Cops would be like _Sheriff Andy_ and sit in the doughnut shop, all night long, waiting for retirement.

We just don't get it.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

plowjockey said:


> You are welcome to _beleive_ whatever you want, as far was was appropriate action for Police. I sure your are qualified, on LE procedures.
> 
> Me I'm not a Cop and i was not there, so I don't feel qualified to judge their actions, one way or another.


I'm no expert, but I am a police academy graduate so I do know quite a bit about procedures and continuum of force and all that stuff that was not followed in that case. Your idea that we can't judge cops if we're not cops is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Do you apply that to every job? Can't say you don't like your food in a restaurant because you've never been a professional chef?

We can agree to disagree on that case...I don't think it has anything to do with your OP topic anyway. But I do have a question...have you ever heard of an instance where you thought the police were wrong?


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2014)

arabian knight said:


> Not only THAT but why was there 4 cops?
> *Guess some didn't see the report that that scum started tossing those cops around like Rag Dolls.*
> Gee why is THAT not on Prime time news?
> THAT is why the officer Jumped on him and Held his head DOWN~! And that 350 Pounder with such bad health just expired away~! There is NO Sympathy form me for that heavy dude that could not keep life in him, and all you that think the cops are too tough PUT yourself in THAT situation with a guy throwing your fellow officers around like that and see if you would not be holding His Head DOWN. Died, well don't resist don't sell smokes like that and stay living.


Where did you come up with this, the "rag doll" quote relates to Brown and a clerk but not Garner and the police. I guess his passive resistance and their fear threw their ego around like a rag doll. You will do well in the new world comrade.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

plowjockey said:


> Huh?
> 
> Exactly where do you think NYC Cops are performing stop and frisk? Somewhere else other than out on the streets? How many thugs leave guns and contraband at home, because they know they will be frisked?
> 
> ...


Or maybe Sheriff Andy lived in a fantasy world which while filmed in black and white seemed to be decidedly white. Movies like "In the Heat of the Night" show a slightly different picture of the south and policing at that same time. Cops don't have an easy job and most never lived and worked in a fantasy land of donut shops and bumbling criminals. They are mostly good hardworking people looking to do the best job they can and go home safely. It's not the cops I have an issue with but policies like stop and frisk.

What I don't get is how some don't realize that if we make it OK for cops to stop people and search other people arbitrarily there will come a day they will do it yo you or me. The same "it makes us safer" argument the right has vilified the left for using on so many issues is no more valid an argument in this case. Many intrusive government policies could make us all much safer. But safer at what cost. And who makes us safe from those ensuring our safety?


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

As far as the Garner case, no he shouldn't have resisted, but the real problem is the law. If an enterprising person wants to buy a case of cigarettes and sell the packs individually for a profit, that shouldn't be a crime. Too many laws about nonsense things. If it had not been a crime the whole incident would not have happened. This is a symptom of a nanny-state.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

jtbrandt said:


> I'm no expert, but I am a police academy graduate so I do know quite a bit about procedures and continuum of force and all that stuff that was not followed in that case. Your idea that we can't judge cops if we're not cops is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Do you apply that to every job? Can't say you don't like your food in a restaurant because you've never been a professional chef?
> 
> We can agree to disagree on that case...I don't think it has anything to do with your OP topic anyway. But I do have a question...have you ever heard of an instance where you thought the police were wrong?


Well, if you are a police academy graduate, thats pretty close to being a cop, so you are hopefully more in tune what are proper procedures and what are not.

So, I'm supposed to up on what is choke-hold and what is not? I didn't attend LE school. 

Comparing LE procedures, with culinary ones, could not be more out of touch, IMO.

I can cook, but I don't normally arrest a criminal suspect.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Then perhaps you shouldn't speak on things of which you do not know. I don't think you answered my question, though...do you feel qualified to do that?


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

jtbrandt said:


> Then perhaps you shouldn't speak on things of which you do not know. I don't think you answered my question, though...do you feel qualified to do that?


Of course Cops do things wrong, but that has nothing to with the recent cases.

Grand Jurys cleared the Cop on both Ferguson and NYC.

We were not on the grand Jury's, so we barely have a clue, on what was presented to them - the decision makers. they saw the evidence and the testimony.

However, looking at a 10 second video or reading a "news" story, that our favorite network spoon-fed us, we are somehow qualified - as experts to dispute their decision.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Thank you for kind of answering my question, but you're crazy if you think being cleared by a grand jury means somebody did nothing wrong. You're right that there's a lot we don't know, which is why from the very beginning I said the grand jury in that one case you seem to want to focus on (which still has nothing to do with your thread topic) was wrong unless there's something the grand jury saw that I can't even imagine. Maybe we'll see. Maybe not. But just as cops can be wrong, so can grand juries (and in that case it was a grand jury in a place where practically everybody is related to multiple cops).

Anyway, I saw a lot more than a 10 second clip, and none of it spoon fed by any network...I don't even have a favorite network. Perhaps you should become more fully informed instead of just assuming the system got it right. When information is lacking, I seek out as much as possible to form my opinions, rather than just accepting the "official" word from on high. One does not have to do a job to be qualified to question the actions of those who do. You didn't like my intentionally absurd culinary example, so I'll throw out another one...I've never been president of the United States, but I can sure have valid opinions on things the president does...and I think it's my obligation as a citizen to continually judge the president's actions.


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## TriWinkle (Oct 2, 2011)

Cute video and sentiment, but I have to disagree...Dogs are loyal and don't bite the hand that feeds them.

What would I like from cops? How about some accountability.

If a cop hit and kills someone riding their bike, lawfully in the Bicycle Lane, because he (the cop) was checking his e-mail. I'd like for him to be brought up on charges.

If a 16 yr old boy answers the door of his own apartment and dares to have a remote control in his hand, I'd like the officer who shot him to be brought up on charges. If that's too much to ask for, then at least have her career as a law enforcement officer ended.

I'd like 76 year old men to not be thrown about and assaulted because the cop didn't know you could drive with expired tags if you have a dealer's sticker on your plate.

I'd like "good cops" to stop covering for bad cops.

Oh, and I'd like cops to behave in a professional manner, up to, and including, not pummeling handcuffed individuals that area already in custody...

At this point, I'd settle if they just quit lying.

And because we're all about sharing videos:

http://youtu.be/wQtEWUvFh00


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

jtbrandt said:


> Thank you for kind of answering my question, but you're crazy if you think being cleared by a grand jury means somebody did nothing wrong. You're right that there's a lot we don't know, which is why from the very beginning I said the grand jury in that one case you seem to want to focus on (which still has nothing to do with your thread topic) was wrong unless there's something the grand jury saw that I can't even imagine. Maybe we'll see. Maybe not. But just as cops can be wrong, so can grand juries (and in that case it was a grand jury in a place where practically everybody is related to multiple cops).
> 
> Anyway, I saw a lot more than a 10 second clip, and none of it spoon fed by any network...I don't even have a favorite network. Perhaps you should become more fully informed instead of just assuming the system got it right. When information is lacking, I seek out as much as possible to form my opinions, rather than just accepting the "official" word from on high. One does not have to do a job to be qualified to question the actions of those who do. You didn't like my intentionally absurd culinary example, so I'll throw out another one...I've never been president of the United States, but I can sure have valid opinions on things the president does...and I think it's my obligation as a citizen to continually judge the president's actions.


Well, you piqued my interest and not wanting to be one of the uninformed sheep, I looked at the whole NYC video (patched by ABC news to be most dramatic, of course)

What I saw was a very large man, surrounded by two officers, answering them very loudly and swinging his huge arms back and forth in a very aggressive motion. When more Officers arrived and attempted to cuff him, he resisted arrest by swinging his hands wrists in a wild fashion, even when on the ground.

So my question to you, in your LE training, if not for grabbing around the neck, what would be the safest and most effective way to take down and restrain to handcuff, a highly agitated 350 pound man, with about a 50"wasitline?

just curious.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

You must have seen a different video than I did. I didn't see any aggressive swinging of the arms...I saw animated gesturing. When they went to arrest him, I did see very mild resistance, but not a real need to take him to the ground yet. What I did not see/hear from the police before the arm went around the neck were any clear verbal commands. That is the first step in the continuum of force. Had it become necessary to "take him down" my preferred method would be a Taser, but it had not reached that point yet. That isn't from my training as they didn't exist at that time, but I believe Tasers, pepper spray, and similar tools are the next step after physical grab attempts. And they can be abused, too, which is part of why the NYPD doesn't have many of them...the administration doesn't trust their officers to use them responsibly.

I am curious...how long was the video you watched? There are a few versions out there. The most prevalent is under 3 minutes and has at least two obvious edits. I don't know how long the whole thing lasted, as the version I watched may also have been edited more subtly. There is another video that shows the time from arrest to when the man is taken away by EMS. That one is even more disturbing to me than the actual takedown...it shows a lot of nothing.


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