# lever action for self defense



## casusbelli (Jan 6, 2009)

want your all's opinion.
some other site threads say lever action (and ? bolt actions too) were the original 'assault weapon'. I don't own an AKA or anything, and would like to buy something with more versatility (game rifle) as well as style. 
Interested in lever actions, such as a Browning. My problem with it: the box type magazine only holds 4 cartridges. An older style lever, with a tube mag, they still only held 6 or so. 
In a SHTF scenario, what good would 4 shots be, if a horde is outside? IOW, it's not the speed of the lever, but the capacity. A spare mag runs ~ $70, and so could possibly get one or two. 
Any experience with either capacity, or speed/ease of changing mags on-the-fly?
(I do NOT seek to open a bolt vs. lever thread, btw)
thanks,
c-b


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

With a good Appalachian assault rifle (lever action gun), fast shooting is fine, but accurate is 'Final'. I would not feel outgunned with a lever action rifle. Good for most varmints, whether they be two legged or four. 
For myself, I would be inclined to do a lever action gun in a pistol caliber, and a matching pistol of the same caliber. (.357 or .44). 
The only limittation I know of to a lever gun is the bullet type. Pointed bullets are not good in a lever gun as the point is setting against the primer of the bullet ahead of it. The recoil could set off a chain reaction that would blow up the gun by exploding the bullets sitting in the tube under the barrel. With hollowpoints or flat points in semi-jacketed or lead, you'd be fine. 

Lee makes the little 'Lee Loader' in most rifle and pistol calibers. Having one of those, you could easily reload for your gun with access to primers and powder. I recommend learning to cast your own bullets. In times of shortage, the lead wheel weights on every tire of every car make great bullets for both rifle and pistol. Your access to bullet lead is unlimited. You can even shoot black powder in most shells if you don't have smokeless rifle powder. In times of want, you have to ask yourself what calibers would be the easiest to acquire shells for. The .30-30 has been around for lots of years and has a proven track record as both a game and man stopper. The .44-40 is a bit odd as it's outdated and a little anemic compared to other rifle calibers. 
Ohio Rusty ><>


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

357 and 44 Cal lever actions hold at least 10 in the magazines, and can be reloaded while shooting, vs having to remove the magazine to reload

Accuracy is good out to about 150 yds


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## FreightTrain (Nov 5, 2005)

if a horde is outside you dont want a dated lever action to lay down the law let alone some lead.. much too slow... and, if u need to fire rounds to keep people back? an AR15 (looks like M16) is visually much more intimidating than a lever action.. 
how about a nice ar-15 in 223 Win with 30 round bananna clips?? VERy accurite with a wealth of add-ons available.... then you can carry say a 9mm on your hip with 15 round clips loaded with hollow points? i can squeese off 30 rounds in my baretta as fast as i can pull the trigger with only a few seconds between clips... and the AR is faster...

really doesnt matter either way if there is a SNIPER across that corn field and he/she takes you out without you knowing they are even there.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> if a horde is outside you dont want a dated lever action to lay down the law let alone some lead.. *much too slow*


They are only "too slow" if you are into "spray and pray"

AR's are pretty worthless for most larger game animals, and that was also a part of the question.

Plus you can buy 2 lever actions for the price of one AR



> i can squeese off 30 rounds in my baretta as fast as i can pull the trigger with only a few seconds between clips... and the AR is faster...


And most of them will miss the target


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> 357 and 44 Cal lever actions hold at least 10 in the magazines, and can be reloaded while shooting, vs having to remove the magazine to reload
> 
> Accuracy is good out to about 150 yds


Yup real nice guns, I own one in .45 LC though.

I also keep a cheap AK clone though, with 30rd magazines, and an M1A with a scope for longer range targets.

I could use any for home defense, if there's enough folks trying to get in my place to get me to require several 30rd magazines I'm done for already anyway.. Just a matter of little time.


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## casusbelli (Jan 6, 2009)

Bearfootfarm-
"Plus you can buy 2 lever actions for the price of one AR"
yeah, that was part i forgot to type - the $$$ of AR's. 
Ohio Rusty-
the pointed bullet issus is/was only an issue with tube mags, where the point sets on the center primer ahead of it. Box mags take care of that.
Anybody have a Browning lever with box mag? How quick can you change mags on these???


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

la la la ,love the one your with ----- ok so thats a song ,but, there is no shame in using what you have and are already familiar with , hunt with and stock ammo for.

the afgans held on for years agains the russians with old nargants and other bolts left over from WWII 

sure semi autos are great , but there is nothing wrong with a lever 

now if you wanted to buy another gun and it was withing your means , absolutly go ahead and get something a little faster to reload /higher capacity 

bearfoot ,makes the point that tube feed levers and pumps you top off every chance you get and that makes them usefull

my #2 gun if all i owned was a centerfire hunting rifle , tought decition here would be a 22lr , sd pistol , or a shotgun
when i had these 4 covered i would be thinking 22 pistol or high cap semi auto rifle.

first off i belive the most comonly used caliber in self defence is 22lr , why because they are available , just inside the door , shed , what have you , they are relitivy inexpensive a functional repeater can be had used right around 100 dollars new 130 -250 covers most 22 rifles , pistols can be had 150-300 for many modles and a hole afternoons practice can be done on a few dollars of cartriges and every hardware store ect carries the shells if they carry anything at all they will carry 22lr cartriges.

i just re read your post , not completely clear you already have a browing lever or you have nothing.
well if i had nothing at all a remingtion 870 or mossberg 500 or 590 would be on my short list , growing up we had 1 gun , as did my grandpa a 12ga pump if it needed killin on the farm it was grandpas 12ga, dads deer gun was his 12ga , they are just very versitile 
wasn't till i got old enough to shoot that dad bought a 22 then me a shotgun to use for hunting.

can i ask do you hunt do you want to hunt what are the firearms hunting restrictions in your area , southern wis was shotgun-slug only for deer for many years as an example.

i also agree with bear foot that pistol caliber rifles in 357 , 44 or 45 are very usefull tools for the same reason they were for the cowboys that worked the west they are large enough to take a deer to 100 yards , and you only need stock one cartrige to use between the rifle and pistol


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

have you given any consideration to a pump rifle , remingtion makes the 760 older modle or the 7600 these were often the poormans semi and fed from 4 or 10 round box magazines.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

casusbelli , how far would you normaly expect to shoot how far can you see in the woods where you are , the pointed bullet thing in levers with tubes is also overcome , balistic tipped bullets plastic tipped bullets , fly better with arowdynamic spizer type bullet shape but not hard enought to set off the primer in the tube infront of it.

the browing lever is nearly 2x the price of a 30-30 marlin 336 especialy used marlins 

if i was looking for a budget rifle right now , i would be getting a enfield 303 for 129.00 
a classic bolt gun holds 10 rounds , accepts stripper clips , mounts a scope easier than a nargant , a proven gun used by both British and US troops in WWII


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

FreightTrain said:


> if a horde is outside you dont want a dated lever action to lay down the law let alone some lead.. much too slow... and, if u need to fire rounds to keep people back? an AR15 (looks like M16) is visually much more intimidating than a lever action..
> how about a nice ar-15 in 223 Win with 30 round bananna clips?? VERy accurite with a wealth of add-ons available.... then you can carry say a 9mm on your hip with 15 round clips loaded with hollow points? i can squeese off 30 rounds in my baretta as fast as i can pull the trigger with only a few seconds between clips... and the AR is faster...
> 
> really doesnt matter either way if there is a SNIPER across that corn field and he/she takes you out without you knowing they are even there.


A few weeks ago my 8 yo boy printed off some targets of zombies. We went out and put one up at 100 yards. He is currently enamored with the 30 round mag on the 10-22 and asked if he could shoot fast at the zombie. Knock yourself out. He made 2 hits. Then I told him to shoot 30 slow fire and he hit 27. He said, "Aiming is always better because you hit the target and if you miss, the zombie will get you." 

So simple, a child can figure it out.

I am intimidated by any gun anyone is pointing at me. If you hit the bad guy with your lever action, he will quit bothering you. Same with an AR, a Trapdoor, Krag, or H&R shotgun.


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## casusbelli (Jan 6, 2009)

Thanks guys.
I'm set with shotguns and handguns. 
Was just wondering about a rifle, for better distance, "out the window" defense, and on-the-run in brush.
Yeah, my state is shotgun-only for hunting. But, if TSHTF, what's it gonna matter???
1) i'll consider pump rifle.
2) still curious why they can't make a box mag to hold more than 4 for a lever.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

casusbelli said:


> ....I'm still curious why they can't make a box mag to hold more than 4 for a lever.


Because you'd smack your knuckles into the mag each time you levered the rifle.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

rounds accurate past 100 get expensive in a hurry 

if i was looking for a quality off the shelf shooter to preform out to and past 100 i would be thinking savage edge/axis rifle also about $300 
while they don't garentee it most of these rifles have been reviewing MOA or better 
i am always on a budget so i am always thinking budget.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

If lever action is problematic for you, may I suggest bolt action? I have both lever and bolt rifles around my place and on any given day I'd be hard pressed to tell you my favorite.


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## Cascade Failure (Jan 30, 2007)

My go to rifle is an AR due to familiarity, training and proficiency. 

That said, I wouldn't feel under-armed with a lever gun.


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## Cascade Failure (Jan 30, 2007)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> rounds accurate past 100 get expensive in a hurry


Maybe I didn't understand your post but I will disagree depending on the degree of accuaracy we are discussing. Even the evil Mal-Wart sells bulk ammo easily capable of hitting a man-sized target at 300 yards.

Ok, ammo capable of a 5 shot, dime-sized hole, does cost more.

Even bulk .22 should hit the target at 100 yards.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Maybe I didn't understand your post but I will disagree depending on the degree of accuaracy we are discussing. Even the evil Mal-Wart sells bulk ammo easily capable of hitting a man-sized target at 300 yards.
> 
> Ok, ammo capable of a 5 shot, dime-sized hole, does cost more.
> 
> Even bulk .22 should hit the target at 100 yards.


I think he's referring more to the weapons themselves.

Most lever actions (except the Brownings and older Savages) are relatively weak cartridges with low ballistic coefficients.

Marlins and Winchesters in 30-30 or smaller can be found for less than $500
Brownings and Savages in larger calibers will cost more, as will most GOOD modern bolt actions 

It's getting hard to find an AR for less than $800 for a basic rifle, and most run $1000 or more

I prefer bolt actions for anything past 200.

Most any type will work under 200


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## Cascade Failure (Jan 30, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I think he's referring more to the weapons themselves.
> 
> Most lever actions (except the Brownings and older Savages) are relatively weak cartridges with low ballistic coefficients.
> 
> ...


Maybe, but he specifically stated rounds.

My examples, (at least in my head) refered to an AR and a 10/22. Both semi-auto and generally accepted as less accurate.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> "Aiming is always better because you hit the target and if you miss, the zombie will get you."


That just bears repeating



> Maybe, but he specifically stated rounds.
> 
> My examples, (at least in my head) refered to an AR and a 10/22. Both semi-auto and generally accepted as less accurate.


Yep, maybe I'm misunderstanding him too.

I've found that each individual gun will shoot particular loads better than others, and it's not based on the cost of the rounds themselves.

You just have to try a lot of different things to see what it "likes"

I've seen a lot of AR's that were as accurate as any bolt gun, but they don't have much power at the longer ranges.

Most modern guns are more accurate than the people shooting them


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## Cascade Failure (Jan 30, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That just bears repeating
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with all of this but will add a factor.

95% of all possible sight lines in my AO are well with in the abilities of most modern loads and rifles.

If I were in the plains states my AR may be in .308, not .233.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> 95% of all possible sight lines in my AO are well with in the abilities of most modern loads and rifles.
> 
> If I were in the plains states my AR may be in .308, not .233.


I can stand on my back deck and see almost 3/4 of a mile across the fields

In a realistic *defense *situation, most shots would be less than 200 yds.

It takes about 3-4 firearms to cover all the basic *possibilities* for both survival hunting and defensive purposes.


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## Cascade Failure (Jan 30, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I can stand on my back deck and see almost 3/4 of a mile across the fields
> 
> In a realistic *defense *situation, most shots would be less than 200 yds.
> 
> It takes about 3-4 firearms to cover all the basic *possibilities* for both survival hunting and defensive purposes.


Agreed. And I think at 200 yds most folks won't be able to distinquish between friend or foe.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Cascade Failure said:


> Agreed. And I think at 200 yds most folks won't be able to distinquish between friend or foe.


Just look for the blue helmets. FOE.

The people they are loading into trucks? FRIEND.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

I love my lever guns, and they've been defending people for over a hundred years now.
Black guns are fun, and they hold lotsa rounds, but a good lever gun won't leave you under armed.


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## MichaelK! (Oct 22, 2010)

Well Casusbelli, looks like you're just going to have to get all three, a lever, a bolt, and an AR!

Here's what I would suggest to cover all the bases

.357 lever (can shoot light .38 specials to heavy deer hunting .357's)
.223 AR (get some high capacity mags)
.30-06 bolt rifle (accurate hunting power at long range starting at 299$)

If you have a .357 lever rifle, you can also get a .357 revolver to wear on your belt. If you get the AR you can also get a varminter rig in a .223 bolt. A .30-06 will cover about 90-95% of American hunting unless you want to live in Alaska and chase grizzlies out of your yard.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sure wish I could find a 357 lever gun at a reasonable price. All I have seen were just a little too high for me.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

CASCADE , BEARFOOT i was refering to the ammunition 

i use 30-06 as a good example of good past 100 yard ammo now i preffer 150 gr winchester superx when i bought my rifle i bought out the hardware store in town i was 14 the rifle was 350 dollars and the shells were 6.50 a box the next stock they had was 7.50 a box i bought more now if i can find them for less than 17.00 a box we think we are doing well 

i can still buy a 30-06 rifle use the savage edge/axis as an example for about 300 dollars it will put 5 rounds in an inch at 100 yards with the right ammo but now a hundred rounds cost you almost as much 

my best price on 223 fmj lately is 21.10 for 60 rounds and that was only because a buddy was in a bulk buy 

now comparing this for 22 dollars at farm and fleet i can get 50 rounds of 44mag blazer aluminum cased jacketed holopoints and from a carbine rifle or pistol they will take a deer , besides that 44 or 45 use cast bullets well that can be made and reloaded easily with strait wall brass if you hang around the range a while you can get brass for picking it up.

i said earlier i am always on a budget so i think budget minded and if your not looking for that 200-300 yard performance of a high power a pistol cal carbine with a matching pistol can make a lot of scence on shots out to 100 yards 

yes the AR has a lot of intimidation factor and is a great platform wish i could afford one , but then i would probably leave it at home to keep it nice any way and my beat up 30-30 rifle that i was given many years ago would still go out with me.



by the way if you don't have a 22lr that would be on my more likly to use list with cb longs very little noise but enough to take rabit squirl varmint form the garden and not atract attention it doesn't shound like a gun shot no crack just a little pop quieter than many pelet rifles


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

pancho said:


> Sure wish I could find a 357 lever gun at a reasonable price. All I have seen were just a little too high for me.


The problem I've been having lately is that all of the lever actions I've picked up to look at in the stores feel like toys to me. They don't fit my hands and arms properly. Compare your modern lever action rifle with something like an old Henry and you'll be surprised how much LESS gun there is. 

Is America shrinking? Manufacturers sure seem to think it is. Everything from gloves to guns all seem to be made for someone a lot smaller than I am. I bought a shirt from the Sportsman's Guide not too long ago and had to send it back. It was an XL. At 6', 185 pounds I can't imagine why they think I'm an XXL.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Just look for the blue helmets. FOE.
> 
> The people they are loading into trucks? FRIEND.


ernie with that thinking , you may want the american eagle liberator made by genral motors signal , 45 acp smooth bore packed with 5 rounds a wood dowel for an ejector 

i hear enemy troops are dying to trade them for thier rifle.


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

casusbelli said:


> want your all's opinion.
> some other site threads say lever action (and ? bolt actions too) were the original 'assault weapon'. I don't own an AKA or anything, and would like to buy something with more versatility (game rifle) as well as style.
> Interested in lever actions, such as a Browning. My problem with it: the box type magazine only holds 4 cartridges. An older style lever, with a tube mag, they still only held 6 or so.
> In a SHTF scenario, what good would 4 shots be, if a horde is outside? IOW, it's not the speed of the lever, but the capacity. A spare mag runs ~ $70, and so could possibly get one or two.
> ...


Lever action rifles are excellent weapons for self defense and hunting.. They are pretty fast, pretty accurate, point naturally and ambidextrous. With the tube magazines you can continually reload so magazine capacity is not that much of an issue. Pistol cartridges can work but a rifle cartridge will certainly extend your range. The 30-30 cartridge has very similar ballistics to the 7.62 X 39 so it's a globally proven man stopper and will work on any North American medium sized game out to 200 yards and can be used for the bigger stuff with careful shot placement. Teddy Roosevelt shot dangerous game like lions, rhinos and Cape buffalo in Africa with a .405 Winchester and today it's pretty easy to imitate those ballistics with a .444 or .450 Marlin or a 45-70 so if you want more punch it's available. The other consideration is that a lever action rifle makes you look like John Wayne instead of Rambo and in this politically correct age that might be a significant advantage. You can buy a 30-30 and a whole lot of ammunition for way less than a .308 PTR 91.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> And I think at 200 yds most folks won't be able to distinquish between friend or foe


I used that distance for the *SHTF *scenario only

Normal defensive situations are measured in feet

Truth is at 50 yds or less , I wouldn't feel too undergunned with just a Ruger 10/22.

I routinely shoot squirrels at that distance, and can do head shots most of the time

It just depends on the exact situation


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

I carry a Marlin Guide Gun(45/70)in my truck for self protection(along with the trusty 1911).Stoked with 450gr LFN handloads at 1350fps,I'm not worried.I'm not shooting any kind of long distance from my sleeper.....


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ernie said:


> The problem I've been having lately is that all of the lever actions I've picked up to look at in the stores feel like toys to me. They don't fit my hands and arms properly. Compare your modern lever action rifle with something like an old Henry and you'll be surprised how much LESS gun there is.
> 
> Is America shrinking? Manufacturers sure seem to think it is. Everything from gloves to guns all seem to be made for someone a lot smaller than I am. I bought a shirt from the Sportsman's Guide not too long ago and had to send it back. It was an XL. At 6', 185 pounds I can't imagine why they think I'm an XXL.


I have noticed many things shrinking. I know I am a little larger but according to the sizes now I am a lot bigger.


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## Gianni (Dec 9, 2009)

casusbelli said:


> Bearfootfarm-
> the pointed bullet issus is/was only an issue with tube mags, where the point sets on the center primer ahead of it. Box mags take care of that.
> Anybody have a Browning lever with box mag? How quick can you change mags on these???


I've got a pair of BLR's [308 & 358] the older pre-81 changes fast in 3-4 seconds with practice. The flush mount 81's are a little longer for me 5-7 seconds. 

IMO if you have a horde of people or an attaccking army outside you have done something wrong, from location to pre-warning systems.


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## sandc (Apr 26, 2010)

zant said:


> I carry a Marlin Guide Gun(45/70)in my truck for self protection(along with the trusty 1911).Stoked with 450gr LFN handloads at 1350fps,I'm not worried.I'm not shooting any kind of long distance from my sleeper.....


I have the same gun. Shooting a 45/70 will force you to become accurate due to the price of rounds.

I also have the lever action in a 44, 45lc and 357. I like the 357 due to the ability to shoot cheaper 38 rounds and the high capacity for plinking.
The wife and I both use sporterized 1903A3 30-06 rifles for hunting. You can usually grab one of these for $275 or less and with very little tinkering have a very accurate rifle. If price is an issue, you can pick up a mosin nagant for around $130 and get 1k rounds to go with it for another $200. Fairly decent gun with a little practice. You can also grab a decent sks for $300 on average throughout most of the country right now. I have several and will probably never be without one in the safe. Nice little go to gun that will take the abuse and still shoot. As for the AR platform, it is either a love or hate relationship. I carried one in the corp, but don't care enough to buy one. I built 3 FAL's for the price of one AR and prefer the 7.62x51 round over the 5.56 any day.

The previous question about the removable mags on teh lever action not coming in bigger sizes. If I remember correctly the magazines are a lot like the factory magazines on the 10/22 and hold the rounds in a round pattern versus stacked.

Were it me and monsy was an issue I would probably start with a mosin and stockpile a few rounds and go on from there. The main thing to think about with a shtf gun is to get one in a caliber that you think you can locate locally when things start to run out.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

custer did not fair well against the lever actions....we in the south think he got what he deserved. just saw the show Rifleman today...


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

If you are buying this rifle for home defense and for dispatching the occasional pest I would seriously consider one of the AK-47 clones. I have a WASR-10 and love it. No it isn't a sniper rifle, but it will serve you well within 100 yards.

If you get it in 7.62x39mm you have a potent round for defense AND for hunting game up to the white tailed deer prealant here in Wisconsin. You also have the capability for magazine sizes in 5, 20, 30, 40 and 75 rounds.

By the way this rifle can be had for around $370, far cheaper than the lever gun you are looking at.


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## unioncreek (Jun 18, 2002)

A 30-30 lever action and a 22LR are the two most versitile firearms there are, I would also include a shotgun. But for lest than 100 yard home defense I would go with a 9mm carbine.

The 30-30 can be loaded to do anything you want. I load cast lead bullets for small game and plinking, and have also used 170 grn cast lead bullets for hunting.

Bobg


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

pancho said:


> Sure wish I could find a 357 lever gun at a reasonable price. All I have seen were just a little too high for me.


I had an opportunity to shoot a Henry lever in .357. Very nice gun and it had less kick (or at least it seemed to) than my Marlin 336 in .30/30


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

Wanderer0101 said:


> Lever action rifles are excellent weapons for self defense and hunting.. They are pretty fast, pretty accurate, point naturally and ambidextrous. With the tube magazines you can continually reload so magazine capacity is not that much of an issue. Pistol cartridges can work but a rifle cartridge will certainly extend your range. The 30-30 cartridge has very similar ballistics to the 7.62 X 39 so it's a globally proven man stopper and will work on any North American medium sized game out to 200 yards and can be used for the bigger stuff with careful shot placement. Teddy Roosevelt shot dangerous game like lions, rhinos and Cape buffalo in Africa with a .405 Winchester and today it's pretty easy to imitate those ballistics with a .444 or .450 Marlin or a 45-70 so if you want more punch it's available. The other consideration is that a lever action rifle makes you look like John Wayne instead of Rambo and in this politically correct age that might be a significant advantage. You can buy a 30-30 and a whole lot of ammunition for way less than a .308 PTR 91.



Well said. I'm very pleased with my Marlin 30-30. It's a very rugged and well made gun. The only thing I'd change on it is the folding plastic rear sight to a metal stationary sight with the sliding elevator underneath like the older guns have.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Some magazine article I read years ago actually encouraged lever action rifles for home defense. One reason was if you went to court over a shooting and the jury saw a "cowboy" rifle instead of an "assult rifle" they would probably tend to be more on the side of the homeowner.

Another article spoke of some police depts that issued lever action .30-30s to the officers due to compactness, ease of use.

Ed


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

i was reading about "cat sneeze" loads for the 30-30 yesterday , now that makes it versitile , talk about a 165 gr bullet traveling sub sonic with 2.5 gr of powder , guys talked abut shooting wood chuck out of the garden with them they worked quite well

another idea was the round ball powered with a just a primer these were the gallery load of the 1900-1930s it used a single 30 cal buck shot ball , and they pushed them thru bores from .308 to .312 even talk of firing a 00 buck at .312 thru a .309 bore with no problem , lube was imortant with any soft lead projectile.

annother great idea i heard was for 22 centerfires to use a 22 cal air rifle pelet seated flush in a unsized .223 brass one guy thought he was making a gallery load only added a tiny charge of powder , when they cronogaphed the load that little 22 pelet was going 3000fps 
but this did make me wonder about working up a minimum load for the 223 as a make 1 gun do lots of different things 

(consult published loading manuals ect...)


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

pancho said:


> Sure wish I could find a 357 lever gun at a reasonable price. All I have seen were just a little too high for me.


You and me both, man. I looked for years for one to companion my S&W 686, and finally setteled for a Marlin in .44 mag when I found a reasonable deal on a used one. It's a GREAT gun, but I'd still gladly swap it for one in .357.

Casusbelli's question is a hard one to answer without more info, and in a perfect world, we'd all have ten of everything made.

That said, I've owned many of the "black" rifles, and all things considered, In the conditions and where I live, I'll take my lever action all day long. It's happy to be dragged through the heavy brush here
, it carries and handles well, I shoot it well, and as was pointed out, handgun chamberings tend to be fas less expensive than centerfire rifle cartridges. The digns are time-proven, and should I need to reach waaaaaaay on out there, the model 700 is up to the task if I do my part. For sure, there's much to be said for generating a volume of fire in order to pin an eney or stop the advancement, but if I find myself fending off a giant hoarde, it's because I've already made a tactical error, bein' as how wacking a mob all by myself ain't exactly part of my survival plan.

In a lever action, I want a tube magazine, certainly not a box magazine, for reasons that have already been pointed out.

The statement has been made on this thread that the AK's are no good for big game. This statement is arbitryry in a mountain of ways, bein as how "good" is relative, and what constitutes "big game" kinda' depends on where you live and what lives there. Ballistically, the 7.62x39 bears a degree of similarity to the .30-.30, and as we all know, the .30-.30 has put more of it's fair share on the family supper table for years and years, so I'm having a hard time reckining how or why someone would say such a thing, but to each his own.

A good time of year for Casusbelli to do his shopping is on the way. At least around here, the pawn shops and newspapers get FLOODED with bargains just a bit after the holidays, as so many folks snap back to reality and realize that they have bills to pay.


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## casusbelli (Jan 6, 2009)

"In a lever action, I want a tube magazine, certainly not a box magazine, for reasons that have already been pointed out."
Swampman- can you elaborate? I think I've learned: tube mags can be loaded on-the-fly/topped off, hold more (~6 vs. 4), and come on levers that are, for unrelated reasons, less expensive (Mossberg vs. Browning). And if I use JHPs in a tube, the pointed bullet--->primer catastrophes are eliminated. Is there anything else???
thnx,
c-b


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## Blu3duk (Jun 2, 2002)

I started hunting 36 years ago with a 30-30 model 94 winchester, made in 1947 and modified to accept a peep with the original buck-horn removed and i was comfortable shooting out to 200 yards and a little farther even if i wanted to [sighted in at 125] without much adjustment needed, farther shots were hardly ever presented and most of the deer and coyotes i shot were under 60 yards over the years, including the two deer for one shot one year. I used 150gr flat points which IIRC were pushing about 2150FPS at the muzzle, maybe 2250, i dont have that particular notebook handy as its over in the storage shed atm, and my memory is fading today from sinus problems.

I personally dont like box magazines as they tend to get lost easy, and unless you have a spare, which can also get lost, you can end up with "a single shot rifle and a one eyed dog" [from a Mel McDaniels song circa 1981] but my wife came with an old bolt action savage 30-30 with a box magazine and it shot pretty decent....also modified, but with a peep rear and target front which makes for a way different site picture.

Ever read what the old man himself who started the survivalist movement had to say about firearms? Kurt Saxon on Self-Defense the first topic is Fantasy and Weaponry which of course makes the AR and AK crowd kind of cringe....... 


> A pistol for the bedroom,
> A shotgun over the door,
> A 30-06 for reaching out;
> You don't need any more


but the whole article is worth reading, and as far as that goes every article he wrote s worth reading as well as it could help change a few ideas about survival and the route to take and why...... and still provide decent discussion on firearm cjhoices and food choices and so forth.

All that said i like the newer Henry remake of the old AR survival rifle, my friend who owns one of the local gun shops said he would get me in one for $240 plus tax, and it breaks down to fit in my pack..... many of the old hound hunters used them years ago when Charter Arms and Armalite were making them..... sorry for the thread drift.

Now if was looking to get a new bolt rifle, I would look for one chambered for the 22-250, put a 2-7 variable scope on it [left at 2 power most of the time] and those can be loaded down for a lot of different small varmit size game you dont want to destroy, chickens[grouse] or turkeys[not lawful but doable] like a 22 hornet, and loaded for a long deer shot around 400 yards..... but you need to be into loading your own to make the tool work properly for you..... and ive said that before, each rifle or pistol wil work with off the shelf ammunition but such is loaded for middle of the road and wont work the same in all tools, ergo finding what works best in your tool and loading to that is important for consistent target gathering.... and yes it can get expensive..... but its fun too in a challenging way!!

William
Idaho


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

casusbelli said:


> "In a lever action, I want a tube magazine, certainly not a box magazine, for reasons that have already been pointed out."
> Swampman- can you elaborate? I think I've learned: tube mags can be loaded on-the-fly/topped off, hold more (~6 vs. 4), and come on levers that are, for unrelated reasons, less expensive (Mossberg vs. Browning). And if I use JHPs in a tube, the pointed bullet--->primer catastrophes are eliminated. Is there anything else???
> thnx,
> c-b


As Blu3duk said, magazines can get lost, leaving you with a single-shot.

I'm a huge fan of traditional handgun cartridges in a lever-action, but keep in mind that I'm in South Mississippi.....unless I'm hunting over farmland (which I seldom do), I haven't any need to attempt a shot beyond the capabilities of a handgun cartridge or a 30-30, around 130 yards, depending on who you ask. My marlin 1894 in .44 mag holds 11 in the tube mag, and a total of 12 with one chambered, a condition I don't make a habit of carrying it in for safety reasons. In a "gosh, I hope I don't get shot" situation, I'd ever-so-carefully run that risk. Ican't quote prices right now, but I think if you compare prices between .357 or .44 mag against prices of .30-.30 and especially against some of the other lever offerings like .45-70, you'll find a signifigant savings.

I have nothing against the Brownings, but I see them as more expensive, less utilitarian, and, well.......ugly as sin. That may not make a difference to you, but I'm a sucker for nostalgia and a sexy firearm. Also, if you get to shopping for a used lever action, just because of commonality, you're more likely to find that bargain on a Marlin or a Winchester.

I don't recall seeing it mentioned in this thread, but in your colder climate, a model with the large loop lever may be worth holding out for, as it's great for when you're wearing heavy gloves.

Of all the plethora of guns I've owned, my Marlin in .44 mag is one I'd never get rid of unless I could unload it to get one like it chambered in .357 mag. Seeing what it can do to a whitetail or a hog has most definitely made a believer out of me.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

If you have a single shot rifle, you learn patience, and make that one shot really count.

I'd much rather have a lever action, with only four or five shots, knowing I could make each and every one drop a zombie, than a 30 rd AK or AR, and I couldn't make one zombie fall.

Of course, the best of all scenarios would be a high capacity rifle, that was accurate, and you made each shot count. The natural tendency in a crisis situation is to pray and spray. You can 'walk' bullets to the target if you have lots of bullets... hard to do with just three or four.

My middle sister did 'walk' a lever action 30-30 to kill a deer at three hundred yards, back in her early days.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

I traded my Rem pre 64 30-30 for 3 .303 and a 308 Enfield bolt actions... to me, Dang good trade. I've always prefered bolt to lever (and better ammo availability) to the "classic" gun. To me, more accurate, powerful and reliable.
Matt
PS, I really like those old Enfields...no matter the caliber. Never had a misfire or a rouge shot...just lucky, I guess.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Roadking said:


> I traded my Rem pre 64 30-30 for 3 .303 and a 308 Enfield bolt actions... to me, Dang good trade. I've always prefered bolt to lever (and better ammo availability) to the "classic" gun. To me, more accurate, powerful and reliable.
> Matt
> PS, I really like those old Enfields...no matter the caliber. Never had a misfire or a rouge shot...just lucky, I guess.


Not sure if you're in the need of another Enfield right now, but http://www.classicarms.us/ has a pretty good buy on the Enfield #4 MK1 right now, $240 (scroll down the page). Thier price on .303 ammo isn't bad either. 288 rounds of British made in a 50 cal ammo can for $140.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Thanks Cabin, but I'm pretty much set with Enfields (but am looking for a firing pin for one of my MK*4*s). Plus, around here, as of last visit to LGD, SMLEs, MK4 going for under $150 (smothered in cosmoline...yuk!)
Matt


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## reluctantpatriot (Mar 9, 2003)

Single shot, repeater, falling block, rolling block, lever action, bolt action, pump action, semiautomatic or whatever, it doesn't matter as much as the operator of the trigger.

I have a Ruger 10/22 with precision shooting modifications and a bull barrel which can put 10 shots in a one inch group at 100 yards with Velocitor .22 LR rounds on a bad day. With good conditions I can make it closer to half an inch at 100 yards.

My older model Savage Arms Model 110 in .270 Winchester puts four shots out of its internal box magazine, Federal standard grade 130 grain soft points, into half an inch at 100 yards consistently. This rifle has no special modifications except it has a a Warne manufactured single piece 20 MOA scope base (gives the scope an extra 20 MOA vertical adjustment for long distance shooting) and warn tactical type flip release scope rings using an entry level Bushnell 3-9x40 hunting scope.

If I do my part, one shot does it. If need be, with either rifle I can fire the entire magazine off hand in two to three seconds, firing as fast as it takes to get the crosshairs back on target, and keep it all in 2 MOA.

Now, as for whether a lever action can do the job for defense, if the person using it is able to make each shot count, it can. However, I would not bet my life or those of my family on the cheapest ammo or surplus myself. If you want to turn even a 30-30 into something that gives a bolt action level cartridge a run for its money, try the polymer tipped Hornady LEVERevolution ammunition. The polymer tip allows the use of spitzer pointed tipped style bullets in a tube magazine which allow the bullets to be more aerodynamic and thus give you more range.

The reason I don't trust cheap or surplus, no matter what I shoot it out of, is because both can fail when you need it most. I use ammo like that for training only. If that is all I had, then I would use it. For self-defense I choose dedicated self-defense type loads or premium type ammunition. If I did not have that available, I would be handloading my own like I do for my precision shooting and hunting. Due to the ambiguity of whether handloads are good or bad in self-defense situations, I stick with commercially manufactured rounds for that scenario.

Now, back to the original topic. If the user can make the shot, it is not really so important what the firearm is. Even a reproduction of a Colt Single Action Army model black powder cap and ball revolver works in a pinch if the operator knows how to properly aim and can properly pull the trigger for accurate effect.

Whatever arm you use for self defense though, make certain it is kept clean, properly lubricated (not too much or too little) and it is well maintained. If it is a Marlin lever action, make certain to replace the factory ejector with the Marlin Bear-Proof Ejector manufactured by Wild West Guns as that is pretty much the only weakness of the Model 336, 1895 and .444 series rifles. 

I will not comment much about Winchester lever actions, particularly the Model 94. The only thing I can say is, if you are not a gunsmith and have disassembly/reassembly guides as well as patience and attention to detail and a few helpful tools, that type of lever action is not fun to maintain, detail clean for proper reliable function or put back together after it has been cleaned. Plus it has many parts that catch and hold gunk easily if it is not cleaned regularly.

To do basic cleaning of the bolt and barrel on the Marlin 336, you just need to remove the screw holding the lever on the action, pull the lever, remove the bolt out the back of the action and the barrel can be cleaned like a bolt action from the breech and the bolt with a toothbrush and it can be easily put back together. There are fewer parts that are easier to keep clean.

It is also easier to put a scope or other optic sight on a Marlin, to help with less than perfect eyesight, than on a Winchester.

I have my preferences for defensive firearms. However, I know enough about the various types of firearms that I could take virtually any firearm and put it to defensive use if needed. I am the defensive device; the firearm is an extension of my defensive mindset and capabilities.


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## FarmerGreen (Dec 11, 2007)

FyredUp said:


> If you are buying this rifle for home defense and for dispatching the occasional pest I would seriously consider one of the AK-47 clones. I have a WASR-10 and love it. No it isn't a sniper rifle, but it will serve you well within 100 yards.
> 
> If you get it in 7.62x39mm you have a potent round for defense AND for hunting game up to the white tailed deer prealant here in Wisconsin. You also have the capability for magazine sizes in 5, 20, 30, 40 and 75 rounds.
> 
> By the way this rifle can be had for around $370, far cheaper than the lever gun you are looking at.


Some WASR-10's only accept single stack mags for a limit of 10 rounds. Make sure you get one that accepts the double stack mags if you want the 20 - 100 round capacity.


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## FarmerGreen (Dec 11, 2007)

Ernie said:


> Is America shrinking? Manufacturers sure seem to think it is. Everything from gloves to guns all seem to be made for someone a lot smaller than I am. I bought a shirt from the Sportsman's Guide not too long ago and had to send it back. It was an XL. At 6', 185 pounds I can't imagine why they think I'm an XXL.


In China 6', 185 pounds IS XL. Probably where the shirt came from. I have noticed the same thing.


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## Blu3duk (Jun 2, 2002)

reluctantpatriot said:


> Single shot, repeater, falling block, rolling block, lever action, bolt action, pump action, semiautomatic or whatever, it doesn't matter as much as the operator of the trigger.
> 
> .......snip........
> 
> I have my preferences for defensive firearms. However, I know enough about the various types of firearms that I could take virtually any firearm and put it to defensive use if needed. I am the defensive device; the firearm is an extension of my defensive mindset and capabilities.


yep it really just boils down to the "nut behind the butt" as my dad-in-law used to say afore he past on. He was big on using 98 mausers and such, and the fact that the gun magazines put down the German cartridges caused they were the enemy in WW1 and WW2. 

If i had more dollars than brains, i would probably have a firearm vault the size of a house, a museum of sorts but dedicated to the fact that i would have *the right tool for the job at hand* whatever that would be.

William


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## MD Steader (Mar 11, 2010)

casusbelli said:


> want your all's opinion.
> some other site threads say lever action (and ? bolt actions too) were the original 'assault weapon'. I don't own an AKA or anything, and would like to buy something with more versatility (game rifle) as well as style.
> Interested in lever actions, such as a Browning. My problem with it: the box type magazine only holds 4 cartridges. An older style lever, with a tube mag, they still only held 6 or so.
> In a SHTF scenario, what good would 4 shots be, if a horde is outside? IOW, it's not the speed of the lever, but the capacity. A spare mag runs ~ $70, and so could possibly get one or two.
> ...


If you are looking for an all around rifle look at the Saiga's, they are sporterized AK-47's. Its not a lever but its a workhorse.

http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga.htm

I shot a few of them the other year. Very accurate at 100yds, still ---- cheap to find and as the owner said of the 3 he had, he would never buy a gun that he couldn't get ammo in bulk for. He had one in .308, one in .223 and one in the russian 7.62x39?

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct708.aspx $349?

Best of all this is a Kalishnikov, if you ever field stripped one you know why they shipped millions. I think you could pack it with manure and it would still fire.


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## Phillip (Feb 6, 2006)

casusbelli said:


> In a SHTF scenario, what good would 4 shots be, if a horde is outside?


 Limited effectiveness.

An old fashioned American lever gun has it's place, that this, in the hunting and recreation area.

For personal protection I would feel 10x better with a civilian AK-47 with 30 mags or something comparable like an AR-15.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

texican said:


> If you have a single shot rifle, you learn patience, and make that one shot really count......


All you have to do is find the leader and shoot her/him.

"Mangalores won't fight without the leader."
- Corbin Dallas (Bruce Willis), "The Fifth Element", Columbia Pictures 1997


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

JoeHafner said:


> If you are looking for an all around rifle look at the Saiga's, they are sporterized AK-47's. Its not a lever but its a workhorse.
> 
> http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga.htm
> 
> ...


The Saigas are very good rifles for a very good price.
Best rifle deal out there as far as I'm concerned.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

casusbelli said:


> want your all's opinion.
> some other site threads say lever action (and ? bolt actions too) were the original 'assault weapon'. I don't own an AKA or anything, and would like to buy something with more versatility (game rifle) as well as style.
> Interested in lever actions, such as a Browning. My problem with it: the box type magazine only holds 4 cartridges. An older style lever, with a tube mag, they still only held 6 or so.
> In a SHTF scenario, what good would 4 shots be, if a horde is outside? IOW, it's not the speed of the lever, but the capacity. A spare mag runs ~ $70, and so could possibly get one or two.
> ...


If you're interested in an all-around, general purpose rifle that is not a semi but uses a box magazine, you might be interested in the new Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle....a .308 bolt action rifle featuring a 20-round magazine. 
Hunting - Target - Tactical


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

casusbelli said:


> Thanks guys.
> I'm set with shotguns and handguns.
> Was just wondering about a rifle, for better distance, "out the window" defense, and on-the-run in brush.
> Yeah, my state is shotgun-only for hunting. But, if TSHTF, what's it gonna matter???
> ...


It maybe because in some(most?) states its illegal to hunt with a rifle holding more than 5 or 6 rounds. I bought a 5 rd mag for my "black rifle" so I could legally use it hunting.


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## Usingmyrights (Jan 10, 2011)

The lever action does have advantages. Its can be fired quickly, though because of the design, it usually makes you slow down and make your shots count. It can be reloaded at any time due to the side port. They also come in everything from mild .22s up through .45 caliber. However, its still not my go to gun. As far as the price vs an AR. An AR can be had for about $500. So price really isn't a concern


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

It's more difficult to shoot a lever action lying prone, hiding in short cover. Not impossible, but more difficult than working a bolt. I do love my Marlin 45-70, though.


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## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

I still want a lever action, got other bases covered already so that's not it. Handy and compact. Unless you've got an army of zombies racing across your yard it would do a nice job for self defense. Steady dropping of the ones in front has a startling effect on the second row...


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

I understand. Sometimes you are in the mood for a single shot, or you want to jack on a lever, or you want a semi, or bolt. No need to tie yourself down to one kind. The more the merrier.


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