# Two children dead in Texas shooting



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

13 more injured


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

14 children, one teacher dead.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Death toll in Texas elementary school shooting rises; 19 children, 2 adults killed by shooter


The suspect was identified as 18-year-old Salvador Ramos, a student at Uvalde High School.




abc13.com


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

I hear he killed his grandmother also.


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

Horrible beyond description. biden has more blood on his hands.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Hopefully the blame gets put on the shooter and not the gun!


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Hispanic name. Wonder if he is here illegally. They can't blame this one on white supremacy.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Politicians will talk big and urge more stringent curtailment of 2nd Amendment rights...but the truth is there are literally 1000s & 1000s of reclusive young men with severe personality problems and access to weapons and epeatedly making threats of violence livng amongst our 350 M people.. Virtually all of them are known since they were youngsters by family & acquaintences to be potential mass killers like this...

...are we prepared to institutionalize/incarcerate all these 1000s just because they have the potential to fly off the handle and murder? Who will decide if the potential is serious enough to take early action? How early? Will those making the judgements be required to wear cool black uniforms with snazzy brass SS insignias? How many will be unjustly incarcerated-- the actual rate of acting out is really quite low compared to the number of potential actors.

Compare the risks to that of driving or riding in a car and getting killed. No comparison. No "need" to "do something." It's just one of those sad, frustrating and uncontrollable things that can happen.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I remember back when we had a guy that promised to veto any unconstitutional breeches of the second amendment so there was no impetus for corrupt FBI agents to get inside crazy people's heads and get them to shoot stuff up.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

The border patrol was envolved.








CBP agent rushed to Texas elementary school and shot gunman,18, dead


An 18-year-old Texan has shot and killed 19 students and two teachers in the city of Uvalde, after first shooting his grandmother. He shared photos on social media of his guns and warned of the attack.




www.dailymail.co.uk


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## KC Rock (Oct 28, 2021)

Wonder if Joe can use his emergency powers to shut down all gun and ammo sales. Plus suspend the 2nd...


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

poppy said:


> Hispanic name. Wonder if he is here illegally. They can't blame this one on white supremacy.


I heard that he was an American citizen. I'm also surprised this is even a news story at all, because Uvalde is 75% Hispanic with a very high poverty rate.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uvalde,_Texas


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## starrynights (Oct 7, 2021)

poppy said:


> Hispanic name. Wonder if he is here illegally. They can't blame this one on white supremacy.


he was here legally


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

KC Rock said:


> Wonder if Joe can use his emergency powers to shut down all gun and ammo sales. Plus suspend the 2nd...


Not as long as I’m alive…


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

KC Rock said:


> Wonder if Joe can use his emergency powers to shut down all gun and ammo sales. Plus suspend the 2nd...


No


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

thesedays said:


> I heard that he was an American citizen. I'm also surprised this is even a news story at all, because Uvalde is 75% Hispanic with a very high poverty rate.
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uvalde,_Texas


Do you really think that the mass-murder of 18 children wouldn’t make the news, or are you so morally disgusting as to see this as an opportunity to leverage your world-view?


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

It seems he had a few problems if this pic is true... from a blog The Intrepid Reporter


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

I wish they would really focus on the real issue. Mental Health (and I a not saying that just because of the pic posted above) and not to get religion into the mix but also morality. Everyone knows it is wrong to kill people esp. innocents. We can make all the laws we want a try and bully people into believe a certain way but at the end of the day...


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Ziptie said:


> Everyone knows it is wrong to kill people esp. innocents.


Then why is it when there is strict enforcement of laws and the guilty get locked up, the murder rate goes down?


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## HomeCreek (Dec 30, 2021)

I work for the local board of education. When I started my career there we had about 1 child in 50 on meds. Now a decade later I can say that children on meds...Im not talking allergy meds insulin etc Im talking behavior modifying meds has reached a point of instead of asking how many are we ask how many arent. I get sheets with meds listed and health issues on every student that I am responsible for. In a decade Ive seen it go from 1 or 2 per 50 to 60 out of 73. The issue is they expect small children pre K to 8th grade to sit silent and not move. Especially little boys who are always more boisterous. Even the best behaved. So the teachers push the parents into believing their kid needs meds to "focus" etc. And unfortunately in this day and age doctors cave to repeated appeals for something to make little Johnny sit like a zombie. 

I blame a large portion of this whole issue on the trend of younger and younger teachers. Most I know are under 25 and have no kids of their own. They have unrealistic expectations from children. Ive had them tell me "Well I am here to teach not teach children to behave" and thats an issue in my opinion. You are an authority figure and you have to command respect and with that respect those children will react in a positive way. 

Ive yet to see a situation like today that the shooter was not on some sort of psychotropic meds etc. I recognize the look in the eyes of overmedicated children. I see it all day every day. 

Its not acceptable to me that the majority of children in public schools today are basically on legal meth. And that most of these children are on them because of lazy parents and school personnel. Its truly sad to see little kids all excited and smiling in the morning become somber little zombies by 9am after the school nurse has dosed them all.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

I think you both can be right. 

I don't believe that picture or any other this early. 

But we do have a severe mental health issue in this country whether we want to admit it or not and it must be addressed.

We also have a problem in the judicial system with criminals not being punished for their crimes.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Ziptie said:


> It seems he had a few problems if this pic is true... from a blog The Intrepid Reporter
> 
> View attachment 110653


I've read other reports that he was transgender. Whatever he was, no question he was mentally ill. Glad he is dead.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Of course a local reporterette repeatedly mentioned on air that Texas dropped the age to carry a handgun from 21 to 18. 
I'm waiting to hear from other 18 year olds who would admit that any plans of committing mass murder against their grandmother and small children would be dashed if the law had never been changed.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Just like the last monster who killed several people for no reason other than the voices in his schizophrenia addled head told him to. It was not the GUN. It was not the INTERNET, it was not the Republicans, it was not the Democrats, it was the idiot who killed the children who is to blame.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

A teenager should not have been able to waltz into a grade school. Politics schmolitics this was a security fail.


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

MoonRiver said:


> Then why is it when there is strict enforcement of laws and the guilty get locked up, the murder rate goes down?


Guess I didn't word my statement clearly... I agree with your statement..


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

KC Rock said:


> Wonder if Joe can use his emergency powers to shut down all gun and ammo sales. Plus suspend the 2nd...


Nope, he can't suspend the Constitution. He should use his executive orders to install armed guards at all schools, and put the death penalty back in place.
The gun didn't kill anyone, a crazy kid who felt invincible did. Cars kill more kids than guns do...those are not Constitutionally protected.
Punishment works....


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

MO_cows said:


> A teenager should not have been able to waltz into a grade school. Politics schmolitics this was a security fail.


Yes ma'am. This too!


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

MO_cows said:


> A teenager should not have been able to waltz into a grade school. Politics schmolitics this was a security fail.


Exactly. Schools here are locked and you have to ring a buzzer and someone will come and see who you are and what your want before they unlock the door.


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## HomeCreek (Dec 30, 2021)

MO_cows said:


> A teenager should not have been able to waltz into a grade school. Politics schmolitics this was a security fail.


This 100 percent. I didnt even know that schools exist in this day and age that are not locked down. I am in a very rural area and even our schools are locked. I work there and I cant even get in without someone looking at a screen to see my i.d. and buzzing me in.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

HomeCreek said:


> This 100 percent. I didnt even know that schools exist in this day and age that are not locked down. I am in a very rural area and even our schools are locked. I work there and I cant even get in without someone looking at a screen to see my i.d. and buzzing me in.


Yes!

BUT, I constantly see people let others "tailgate" in when the buzzer is sounded. It occurs dozens of times everyday at every "secure" school. If you don't believe me, just go watch.

Until you assign a guard, armed or otherwise, these systems can and are bypassed everyday.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

I suspect this tragedy may be what puts the firearm issue over the top. The net effect will be to put large numbers of responsible people into the category of criminals. This has been knocking at our doors for years.

Recently I had a conversation with my 2nd oldest. He lives in NYC and is of the opinion you'd expect. NYC has all the laws and restrictions needed yet there are still gun deaths. He said that the only way to fix it is to have every other place with the same laws as NYC. He kept bringing up Australia. In the end we could still hug/kiss and agree to disagree. He can't dance around with me - he grew up in a house where there were firearms all over the place. 7 kids. The rule was if someone sees something out of place then bring it up to Dad or Mom. If anyone wants to shoot then just say so. A fire arm wasn't any different than a garden hoe except it might be more fun than chores. All of my kids knew fire arm safety 2nd nature.

A guy could be prosecuted for raising children like that now.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

JRHill02 said:


> I suspect this tragedy may be what puts the firearm issue over the top. The net effect will be to put large numbers of responsible people into the category of criminals. This has been knocking at our doors for years.
> 
> Recently I had a conversation with my 2nd oldest. He lives in NYC and is of the opinion you'd expect. NYC has all the laws and restrictions needed yet there are still gun deaths. He said that the only way to fix it is to have every other place with the same laws as NYC. He kept bringing up Australia. In the end we could still hug/kiss and agree to disagree. He can't dance around with me - he grew up in a house where there were firearms all over the place. 7 kids. The rule was if someone sees something out of place then bring it up to Dad or Mom. If anyone wants to shoot then just say so. A fire arm wasn't any different than a garden hoe except it might be more fun than chores. All of my kids knew fire arm safety 2nd nature.
> 
> A guy could be prosecuted for raising children like that now.


I’ll not be giving up mine..


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

HomeCreek said:


> I work for the local board of education. When I started my career there we had about 1 child in 50 on meds. Now a decade later I can say that children on meds...Im not talking allergy meds insulin etc Im talking behavior modifying meds has reached a point of instead of asking how many are we ask how many arent. I get sheets with meds listed and health issues on every student that I am responsible for. In a decade Ive seen it go from 1 or 2 per 50 to 60 out of 73. The issue is they expect small children pre K to 8th grade to sit silent and not move. Especially little boys who are always more boisterous. Even the best behaved. So the teachers push the parents into believing their kid needs meds to "focus" etc. And unfortunately in this day and age doctors cave to repeated appeals for something to make little Johnny sit like a zombie.
> 
> I blame a large portion of this whole issue on the trend of younger and younger teachers. Most I know are under 25 and have no kids of their own. They have unrealistic expectations from children. Ive had them tell me "Well I am here to teach not teach children to behave" and thats an issue in my opinion. You are an authority figure and you have to command respect and with that respect those children will react in a positive way.
> 
> ...


It used to be if a kid misbehaved he got the strap, or spanked, and if the parents found they misbehaved at school, they would get a repeat at home. Punishment with teeth was today’s mental health medicine. Nowadays, teachers have no recourse whatsoever. I blame the lack of discipline in the home, in the school, broken homes, and today’s woke society. I am 46 years old, in Canada. I walked across the parking lot at my school with a .30-30 Winchester, less than 30 years ago, and no one blinked. I had bought it from a classmate and was taking it to my car from his. Society has changed. Strangely, liberals seem to think for the better. What a mess.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

farmerDale said:


> It used to be if a kid misbehaved he got the strap, or spanked, and if the parents found they misbehaved at school, they would get a repeat at home. Punishment with teeth was today’s mental health medicine. Nowadays, teachers have no recourse whatsoever. I blame the lack of discipline in the home, in the school, broken homes, and today’s woke society. I am 46 years old, in Canada. I walked across the parking lot at my school with a .30-30 Winchester, less than 30 years ago, and no one blinked. I had bought it from a classmate and was taking it to my car from his. Society has changed. Strangely, liberals seem to think for the better. What a mess.


Until a teacher hits YOUR child, of course.

I've heard it before and will again - bring back torture as a method of discipline, and all of society's problems will disappear. Got it.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

starrynights said:


> he was here legally


And he was an American citizen.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

HomeCreek said:


> I work for the local board of education. When I started my career there we had about 1 child in 50 on meds. Now a decade later I can say that children on meds...Im not talking allergy meds insulin etc Im talking behavior modifying meds has reached a point of instead of asking how many are we ask how many arent. I get sheets with meds listed and health issues on every student that I am responsible for. In a decade Ive seen it go from 1 or 2 per 50 to 60 out of 73. The issue is they expect small children pre K to 8th grade to sit silent and not move. Especially little boys who are always more boisterous. Even the best behaved. So the teachers push the parents into believing their kid needs meds to "focus" etc. And unfortunately in this day and age doctors cave to repeated appeals for something to make little Johnny sit like a zombie.
> 
> I blame a large portion of this whole issue on the trend of younger and younger teachers. Most I know are under 25 and have no kids of their own. They have unrealistic expectations from children. Ive had them tell me "Well I am here to teach not teach children to behave" and thats an issue in my opinion. You are an authority figure and you have to command respect and with that respect those children will react in a positive way.
> 
> ...


Nowadays, it seems that children are assumed to have ADHD, or autism, until proven otherwise. It also seemed to exist only in white children from low-income families until around the year 2000. I've actually heard of schools that automatically referred all children who were not living with both biological parents, regardless of why, for ADHD evaluation (what the? The days of assuming that kids from "broken homes" were automatically degenerates is long gone.)

As for teachers being young, hey, new teachers have to come from somewhere. I've noticed that PRINCIPALS, at least in my area, are the ones who keep getting younger and younger! The ones I see on my local news seem to rarely be more than 30 years old. BTW, when I was in elementary and junior high in the 1970s, my principals were always women, and older women, something that people often have a hard time believing.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> Then why is it when there is strict enforcement of laws and the guilty get locked up, the murder rate goes down?


Very simple-- in jurisdictions governed by Soros-elected DAs, the excess murders are not being committed by the insane, but by the cunning taking advantage of the situation.

Let's presume you do not rob banks..Why not?..Is it because it is illegal or because you have a sense of morality?...How did you develop that sense of morality?...Could ot be that it was instilled in you by a strong family involvement in your up-bringing?....Do I need to explicitly continue this line of Socratic questioning, or can you figure it out on your own from here?

BTW- jurisdictions where concealed carry laws have been enacted see a miraculous fall in murder rates. Gary IN, for instance, was the Murder Capital of the country 15 or 20 yrs ago (on a per capita basis). CC laws enacted and murders fell from 100s per yr to only a dozen or so the very first year of the new law. Many other exmples.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Keep things in perspective-- in a country of 350 M people-- oh! wait...351 M people (borders are still open. If you read this tomorrow, make it 352M people--

There are 40,000 deaths annually on our roads.
There are 3200 deaths annually from fires.

Mass shootings- usually less than 15/yr and most years less than 50 41 Years of Mass Shootings in the U.S. in One Chart

...and some places like Chicago consistently have 400+ murders per year that don't qualify as mass shootings.

Anoher point for the Censorship Crowd before they impose their unreasonable will on the rest of us-- monitoring social media is a good sourcee of info for law enforcement agencies to get an idea of where to look for trouble. If the automatic algorithm is put in place that eliminates posts about violence etc, we'll all be less safe


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

This is such an incredibly sad story. 
Hurt people hurt people.
And for sure, there are a lot of hurt people around.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Ziptie said:


> I wish they would really focus on the real issue. Mental Health (and I a not saying that just because of the pic posted above) and not to get religion into the mix but also morality. Everyone knows it is wrong to kill people esp. innocents. We can make all the laws we want a try and bully people into believe a certain way but at the end of the day...


Wouldn't it be nice if they tried to actually address the problem rather than stand on the bodies of the dead to push their political agenda?
Pedo Joe didn't waste any time calling for more "gun control".
I'm sure when the mass killers are using cars or bombs, they'll take the cars and crockpots away from everyone who didn't do it instead of figuring out what's causing these things.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

China would like an unarmed America


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1529426053403385856


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1529433895338651649


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## colourfastt (Nov 11, 2006)

I'm surprised and pleased to see that there is actual discussion in this thread rather than the usual "thoughts and prayers" platitudes that are so ubiquitous after a mass shooting.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

_"China urges US to take American peoples human rights seriousl_y..."
Note that Twitter seems to feel no need to use their editing/correction/notice of context needed/ etc tool when such a comment is posted.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

The fact is that some people shouldn't have access to guns. We have to find a way to keep guns out of their hands.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> The fact is that some people shouldn't have access to guns. We have to find a way to keep guns out of their hands.


Your point will require hard choices about certain people in society and I am only addressing your specific post.
You cannot stop someone intent on evil.
If I want to kill my grandmother and murder little children at the local school, not having access to a gun will not stop me.
I will pipe bomb, burn, poison, sabotage or do whatever means I choose to kill the most people effectively.
You will never pass a law that changes that.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Nevada said:


> The fact is that some people shouldn't have access to guns. We have to find a way to keep guns out of their hands.


Are you referring to people that would preserve the country as founded or crazy people that we have numerous laws and agencies in place already to prevent them from having guns?

If the latter, maybe we should fire some people for being derelict. Probably a better bet would be to always protect the second with a veto. That way the crazy people won't end up with a handler funded by us, coercing them to kill innocents to push a twisted political agenda. Clearing the rolls of acronym agencies would do the most good for preventing mass shootings at this point.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

thesedays said:


> Until a teacher hits YOUR child, of course.
> 
> I've heard it before and will again - bring back torture as a method of discipline, and all of society's problems will disappear. Got it.


If my child did something wrong, and the teacher spanked my child for being an idiot, (not hit, leftists use the term hit, desperately trying to imply abuse), they have my blessing.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

MO_cows said:


> A teenager should not have been able to waltz into a grade school. Politics schmolitics this was a security fail.


Bingo.
You can't just walk into schools around here. You have to hit the buzzer and show ID. And, there is always a cop on duty.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

KC Rock said:


> Wonder if Joe can use his emergency powers to shut down all gun and ammo sales. Plus suspend the 2nd...


That's just stupid.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Cornhusker said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if they tried to actually address the problem rather than stand on the bodies of the dead to push their political agenda?
> Pedo Joe didn't waste any time calling for more "gun control".
> I'm sure when the mass killers are using cars or bombs, they'll take the cars and crockpots away from everyone who didn't do it instead of figuring out what's causing these things.


I've been standing on my soapbox for years screaming about improving the mental health care system. To no avail.

When involved parents with financial and time resources can't get adequate mental health care for their children, you can be sure parents with less resources are s__t out of luck.

Then again, politicians don't fix things, they just set things up to continue the madness so that they have things to campaign on.

ETA sorry for the overuse of "things." Lack of caffeine.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

poppy said:


> Hispanic name. Wonder if he is here illegally. They can't blame this one on white supremacy.





thesedays said:


> I heard that he was an American citizen. I'm also surprised this is even a news story at all, because Uvalde is 75% Hispanic with a very high poverty rate.
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uvalde,_Texas


Were his parents here legally? Or were they criminal invaders that should have been kept out?


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Here in the southwest you can't assume everyone with a Hispanic last name is here illegally, or even first generation. A lot families with Hispanic surnames have been in this area/country longer than some of you with Anglo surnames. 

My first husband has a Hispanic surname. His family has been in the U.S. for generations. Our daughter has his surname. Members of my family (and thus hers) were in the Revolutionary war. 

I don't know what this particular person's deal is, but painting everyone with a Hispanic surname as an illegal or first generation is really kind of annoying.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I agree. It happens a lot, ie even here, when members are quick to point out white supremacy, yet ignore that evil is not a color or background.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Mish said:


> I've been standing on my soapbox for years screaming about improving the mental health care system. To no avail.
> 
> When involved parents with financial and time resources can't get adequate mental health care for their children, you can be sure parents with less resources are s__t out of luck.
> 
> ...


You made good points.
Which do you think would be an easier issue to improve?
Screening and treating every American citizen in an affordable manner for a competent level of mental health?
Securing our public and private schools?


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> You made good points.
> Which do you think would be an easier issue to improve?
> Screening and treating every American citizen in an affordable manner for a competent level of mental health?
> Securing our public and private schools?


I don't think screening and treating everyone is necessary, but when parents/guardians ask for help or say they need help for their children, there should be a system in place to actually get help. I unfortunately had to deal with this as a parent - who was very involved and had some money, decent insurance, and time to deal with the issues - but the resources in a lot of cases simply don't exist for intensive mental health care for children/teens. Or adults, really, for that matter. We need more psychiatrists (we have been on wait lists for over 8 months), we need more qualified therapists, we need some alternative treatments outside of a pointless warehousing 72-hour hospital stay when things get to emergency levels. Actually, the only time the system sort of works is when things have gotten to emergency status (emergency status being a threat to harm oneself or others), and then after the emergency is over, you're on your own again. Which really sucks if you have a child with a chronic condition. I can't imagine how much worse it would be with a violent mentally ill child, no money, no insurance (or possibly worse, state insurance), and no time to spend hours on the phone every day tracking down leads for help while also trying to make sure your kid is ok. 

I feel like fixing the mental health care system would dramatically reduce the need to turn schools into prison yards, for a multitude of reasons. Heck, maybe treating our kids in school like they are in an institutional prison-like system IS part of the problem.

(sorry typing this in a rush before I head out the door)


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Mish said:


> I don't think screening and treating everyone is necessary, but when parents/guardians ask for help or say they need help for their children, there should be a system in place to actually get help.
> 
> I feel like fixing the mental health care system would dramatically reduce the need to turn schools into prison yards, for a multitude of reasons. Heck, maybe treating our kids in school like they are in an institutional prison-like system IS part of the problem.
> 
> (sorry typing this in a rush before I head out the door)


I understand your line of reasoning so I'll ask- 
If screening only some rather than all is what you feel is needed, then who is responsible for determining the protocol?
How would mental health guidelines have prevented the Chinese man from the shooting at the Tiawanese church?
How would it have prevented the black man from shooting up the subway in New York?
I am using a few descriptives because much of the crime and mass shootings do not have to do with mental health, and the fad with pigeonholing a white guy who shoots multiple victims automatically as a supremist, while ignoring the true nature of certain crimes is political.
Every response should be a filter. Nothing is foolproof and some filters are better than others.

Locking down schools is not the same as a prison. A prisoner faces a bigger risk from the other inmates than he does from the outside world.
If you left your children with a babysitter, would you be happy with the sitter just telling anyone who knocks on the door to come on in? If you made her lock the doors when you left, would it feel like a prison to your kids? 
Who is more worthy of our care and protection, the employees of a Federal building, a courthouse, an NFL stadium, or kids guilty of nothing more than wanting to learn, socialize and experience a breif period of innocence?


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

kinderfeld said:


> Bingo.
> You can't just walk into schools around here. You have to hit the buzzer and show ID. And, there is always a cop on duty.


There's 100,000 public schools and 35,000 private schools. Paying guards, say $50k/yr would amount to an expenditure of over a Billion dollars a year in an attempt to prevent no more than 1 incident per year-- and not always successful at that--Several of the school incidents occurred in schools with armed guards.

Crazy people are crazy...."Deterrants" don't work with them.

Thart $1 B each year could be better used by, say, BLM to buy 180 more $6M mansions for throwing parties.


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## colourfastt (Nov 11, 2006)

kinderfeld said:


> Were his parents here legally? Or were they criminal invaders that should have been kept out?


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

...and GTX brings up a good point.

How can we come up with a good screening protocol when we can't even come up with a good response protocol---

Does it make any sense to you guys that we automatically put schools on a lock down/shelter in place response once it's known an active shooter is prowling the halls?...Doesn't that just give the shooter a chance to take his time, going from room to room to shoot ducks in a barrel?

It kinda reminds me of the recommended A-bomb response in the '50s-- Sit down by your locker. Put your head between your knees...so you can kiss you a_s good-bye....What geniuses think this stuff up?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

colourfastt said:


> View attachment 110670


And who did the Indians steal the land from? As part of my heritage I'll hang up and listen to your response.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> You cannot stop someone intent on evil.


I'm going to hold you to that, but you aren't going to like it.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

A shooter enters a school because it is a target of opportunity.
Removing firearms does not remove the target.
Removing the opportunity does.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> A shooter enters a school because it is a target of opportunity.
> Removing firearms does not remove the target.
> Removing the opportunity does.


So the answer is to defund the police?


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

colourfastt said:


> View attachment 110670


The indians didn't have such immigration laws in place. The U.S. does.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> So the answer is to defund the police?


You are browsing multiple forums and posting one response to another topic.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> You are browsing multiple forums and mixing your answers.


We can't stop them. So what's the point of having police?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

No, we aren't stopping them. There is a difference.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Nevada said:


> So the answer is to defund the police?


Defund the police? How do you come up with this crap? Schools and churches are "targets of opportunity" because there is little if any resistance. That's why these lunatics pick these targets. Why aren't they shooting up police stations? Or gun shows? Or NRA conventions?

Arm all faculty that are willing to carry.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

kinderfeld said:


> Defund the police? How do you come up with this crap?


If we can't stop evildoers then what's the point of police?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> If we can't stop evildoers then what's the point of police?


Absolutes and speaking to the extremes like this are why nothing but knee jerk reactionaries fill the tv screens. I can't absolutely prevent mosquitoes from biting me, but I still take measures to limit them.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Absolutes and speaking to the extremes like this are why nothing but knee jerk reactionaries fill the tv screens. I can't absolutely prevent mosquitoes from biting me, but I still take measures to limit them.


I told you that you wouldn't like it. But now you have to own it.

YOU CANNOT STOP SOMEONE INTENT ON EVIL.

That's going to save us a lot on police, border security, and even the military. We just have to accept that we can't stop them. Right?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> I told you that you wouldn't like it. But now you have to own it.
> 
> YOU CANNOT STOP SOMEONE INTENT ON EVIL.
> 
> That's going to save us a lot on police, border security, and even the military. We just have to accept that we can't stop them. Right?


You are being dishonest. I get when someone doesn't have all the information, but you should know better.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I told you that you wouldn't like it. But now you have to own it.
> 
> YOU CANNOT STOP SOMEONE INTENT ON EVIL.
> 
> That's going to save us a lot on police, border security, and even the military. We just have to accept that we can't stop them. Right?


Such a loser attitude. Shooting them stops them. Rather than waiting for the police to show up, we need more people on site shooting back.



GTX63 said:


> You are being dishonest. I get when someone doesn't have all the information, but you should know better.


In the information age, you'd think so.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Nevada said:


> So the answer is to defund the police?


Saying stupid things like that is why it is a waste of time trying to discuss things with people like you.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1529488382761607168


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Saying stupid things like that is why it is a waste of time trying to discuss things with people like you.


Yep.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> Saying stupid things like that is why it is a waste of time trying to discuss things with people like you.


Say a certain person had a medical procedure to remove their spleen decades ago, and as such, is now considered a high risk for infection. We agree that we all die. Death is 100% certain.
So why bother doing anything to improve their lives?

I don't think their light switch of reason and logic is shut off, some folks just choose to use the dimming feature because it is convenient for their mood.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> You are being dishonest. I get when someone doesn't have all the information, but you should know better.


What this is about is liking some laws but not others.

With gun control the real problem is that it doesn't take guns from people who shouldn't have guns. Idiots shouldn't have guns, but we have no way of weeding them out.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

That is why I have a greenhouse. To keep the weeds out.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Here's my plan. The basic objective is to get the schools to take on the responsibility to protect their students. Of course, there need to be defensive measures, but the teachers are in a position to identify potential problem students. Teachers need to be trained and each school needs to develop a policy for dealing with problem students. Many school shootings could be prevented if teachers were more proactive and the schools took appropriate preventative actions.

*My 9 Point Plan*

Harden Schools
Adequate Armed Guards at each School
Several Teachers Trained in Firearms with Concealed Carry permits
Teachers trained to identify behavior that may be indicative of future violent behavior
Each school has a social worker/counselor to work with teachers/parents and problem students
Letter to parents (signature required) Explaining School's Intervention Program and Security Measures
Partnership with Law Enforcement with written policies for escalation
Anonymous Reporting System
This one needs to be thought out as it may or may not violate civil liberties. Monitor students' social media. I'm sure some company has developed software to do this.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Idiots shouldn't have guns, but we have no way of weeding them out.


That's why we need to be prepared to cut them down as quickly as possible to mitigate the damage they may do.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

MO_cows said:


> A teenager should not have been able to waltz into a grade school. Politics schmolitics this was a security fail.


Yeah, but turning schools into fortresses is never going to happen. Sandy Hook had a locked door with a buzzer system to let people in. But it was a glass door, so he shot it out and walked in. Most schools I've seen have glass front doors. Maybe that's a bad idea, but even absent glass doors, they still have windows in most classrooms.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Here's my plan. The basic objective is to get the schools to take on the responsibility to protect their students. Of course, there need to be defensive measures, but the teachers are in a position to identify potential problem students. Teachers need to be trained and each school needs to develop a policy for dealing with problem students. Many school shootings could be prevented if teachers were more proactive and the schools took appropriate preventative actions.
> 
> *My 7 Point Plan*
> 
> ...


Having armed guards won't help if the guards are idiots. Watch the first two minutes or so of this episode of Police Story to see what I mean. For context, this section of the episode starts with LA police responding to a reported shooting at a grocery store.

*Cop:*_ You were going to shoot her because she wouldn't get out of line?
*Security guard:* I ordered her out three times._


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yes Ryan, schools can and should be made as secure as any building needs to be to protect kids. Accepting that will allow true proactive measures to move forward, no matter how impractical some may think they are.
Yes, Adam Lantz did shoot out the door and he did gain access, and a deputy hovered outside afraid to go in and confront him.
Taking away firearms, arming teachers with burlap bags full of cans of pork and beans and piling into the coat rooms are all fails. As long as our leadership continues to be reactionary, spit out hyperbole and we wring our hands, this horror will continue.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> Having armed guards won't help if the guards are idiots. Watch the first two minutes or so of this episode of Police Story to see what I mean. For context, this section of the episode starts with LA police responding to a reported shooting at a grocery store.
> 
> *Cop:*_ You were going to shoot her because she wouldn't get out of the line?
> *Security guard:* I ordered her out three times._


Are you watching that episode of Police Story for entertainment or for reference?


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Nevada said:


> Having armed guards won't help if the guards are idiots. Watch the first two minutes or so of this episode of Police Story to see what I mean. For context, this section of the episode starts with LA police responding to a reported shooting at a grocery store.
> 
> *Cop:*_ You were going to shoot her because she wouldn't get out of line?
> *Security guard:* I ordered her out three times._


So you have a problem with 1 bullet in a 9 bullet plan. Not bad.

The basic idea is the school is hardened, if the shooter still gets into the school there is an armed guard and if the shooter gets past the guard, there are armed teachers. That's a pretty strong deterrent.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Death is not a deterrent to those expecting to go out in a blaze of so-called glory.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Death is not a deterrent to those expecting to go out in a blaze of so-called glory.


In such a situation it's not so much about deterring as it is mitigating the damage these nut jobs do. In which case, killing them is the best solution.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Are you watching that episode of Police Story for entertainment or for reference?


While that story might be fictional, I've known several gun collectors that I wouldn't trust with a spring-action BB gun.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

painterswife said:


> Death is not a deterrent to those expecting to go out in a blaze of so-called glory.


It is a strong deterrent to others who might be thinking of something similar. For those caught alive, there is no doubt they are guilty, and they should be stood up against the school and publicly executed within 24 hours.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

painterswife said:


> Death is not a deterrent to those expecting to go out in a blaze of so-called glory.


Cutting their body count is probably a deterrent though. Many are seeking to set records. Make it more difficult for them, they may think twice. Even if not a deterrent, cutting the body count is still a benefit.

The Oxford school shooting last year was just a couple miles from me. I know two kids who were in the building that day, one shot but not killed. That shooter's goal was to set a record and get famous, and he wanted to live to enjoy his fame. He has emailed the jail staff asking them how to receive his "fan mail." Luckily cops were close and stopped him at 4 bodies.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

GTX63 said:


> Are you watching that episode of Police Story for entertainment or for reference?



He actually did cite an episode of Star Trek to argue one of his points a few years ago.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> Are you watching that episode of Police Story for entertainment or for reference?


I figured he got his best ideas from the onion and Mad magazine.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Nevada said:


> *Having armed guards won't help if the guards are idiots. * Watch the first two minutes or so of this episode of Police Story to see what I mean. For context, this section of the episode starts with LA police responding to a reported shooting at a grocery store.
> 
> *Cop:*_ You were going to shoot her because she wouldn't get out of line?
> *Security guard:* I ordered her out three times._


I agree with that part, but it is easily corrected by not hiring liberals as guards.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

GTX63 said:


> Yes Ryan, schools can and should be made as secure as any building needs to be to protect kids.


Can? Yes. Should? Debateable. Will? Nope. Which is why I don't bother debating the should question. Not gonna happen.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

MoonRiver said:


> Here's my plan. The basic objective is to get the schools to take on the responsibility to protect their students. Of course, there need to be defensive measures, but the teachers are in a position to identify potential problem students. Teachers need to be trained and each school needs to develop a policy for dealing with problem students. Many school shootings could be prevented if teachers were more proactive and the schools took appropriate preventative actions.
> 
> *My 9 Point Plan*
> 
> ...


Two point plan… shoot the shooter, keep their name outta the press!


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Evons hubby said:


> Two point plan… shoot the shooter, keep their name outta the press!


Your plan assumes the shooter will be successful. Mine that they will be stopped.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

MoonRiver said:


> Your plan assumes the shooter will be successful. Mine that they will be stopped.


My plan stops them too.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> The fact is that some people shouldn't have access to guns. We have to find a way to keep guns out of their hands.


What's your solution that won't violate any rights?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Nevada said:


> I'm going to hold you to that, but you aren't going to like it.


You think taking the rights away from innocent people will help?
How about those freaks that crash a van into a crowd, should we steal your car and revoke your license even if you had nothing to do with it?
Driving is a privilege not a right.
How about if someone is dumb enough to vote for a corrupt politician owned by China?
Maybe revoke their right to vote?
let's hear you say your party is using this tragedy to push their politics.
Biden is just like Obama, a fraud and a thief.
Can you admit it?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Nevada said:


> What this is about is liking some laws but not others.
> 
> With gun control the real problem is that it doesn't take guns from people who shouldn't have guns. Idiots shouldn't have guns, but we have no way of weeding them out.


If you bothered to turn off CNN, you'd know it's illegal for someone with mental problems or a felony to own guns.
Enforce the laws, people with known mental problems need to be treated and monitored and stop releasing violent criminals (thanks democrats)
Amazing what you'll tolerate for a few votes.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

JeffreyD said:


> What's your solution that won't violate any rights?


Lefties will do what MSNBC tells them to do and have no solutions. It's all about blaming someone else


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

colourfastt said:


> View attachment 110670


What peoples were here before the so called "native Americans"? Did any of those "Native Americans" fight for and take land from others? If they did, everything is fair game in winning.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> So the answer is to defund the police?


Thats what your party wants, not what conservatives want...remember that.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

What is the more feasible scenario?
Removing all firearms from the country and legally nullifying the second ammendment?
Installing a plan to secure all public schools to the point where forced access can be at least slowed to a time similar to what it would take police to arrive?
The latter would agreeable be difficult, but it would be better than the current cycle of wailing, blaming, mourning, politicizing and then repeating it during the next shooting.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Saying stupid things like that is why it is a waste of time trying to discuss things with people like you.


It is, it really is a waste of time.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> What this is about is liking some laws but not others.
> 
> With gun control the real problem is that it doesn't take guns from people who shouldn't have guns. Idiots shouldn't have guns, but we have no way of weeding them out.


Idiots shouldn't be allowed to drive either! 40,000 people are killed each year, yet there's no crying or whining about that, why not? What about that guy who ran over all those people? The media jumps to conclusions and then fades to black when the truth comes out. Some, hate the truth and rely on failing news outlets like cnn to tell the and reaffirm their mental state. That kid who killed all those folks in Buffalo was an extremist liberal who hated conservatives, yet once again, the media is silent.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I watched a Texas local news station yesterday and I wondered what possible motive and result was being attempted by interviewing a 9 year old about how he felt and what he saw and how close was he to the shooter.
What did he think as the shooter was killing classmates? Of course they had the little boy's face blurred, but watching the adults coach him from the sidelines was really startling. Using a 9 year old child to tell the world that he is now traumatized as he looks left to the adults to be sure he’s correct is just wrong.
Someone in corporate media, without compassion or common sense thought interviewing a third grader just hours after a mass shooting was a good idea.
It was a disgusting interview with this child and another new low.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

kinderfeld said:


> I figured he got his best ideas from the onion and Mad magazine.


Spy vs spy...


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## NEPA (Feb 21, 2015)

You're all spot on. Just talking about this at work. Girl with known mental health issues posted on facebook how she had to wait 8 weeks for an appointment with a therapist, but could go buy a gun today. How do we stop her from getting a gun without impacting the rest of us who own guns with absolutely no issues whatsoever? I sure don't have the answer, but more gun laws won't help. We already have thousands of laws on the books. This is a social problem, not a gun problem. 

The shooting is an absolute tragedy. I'd love to see soft targets like schools and malls better defended until we can get the crazies off the streets.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> Spy vs spy...


Eh...More like Beavis and Butthead
or Dumb and Dumber.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

GTX63 said:


> I watched a Texas local news station yesterday and I wondered what possible motive and result was being attempted by interviewing a 9 year old about how he felt and what he saw and how close was he to the shooter.
> What did he think as the shooter was killing classmates? Of course they had the little boy's face blurred, but watching the adults coach him from the sidelines was really startling. Using a 9 year old child to tell the world that he is now traumatized as he looks left to the adults to be sure he’s correct is just wrong.
> Someone in corporate media, without compassion or common sense thought interviewing a third grader just hours after a mass shooting was a good idea.
> It was a disgusting interview with this child and another new low.


These tragedies are the result of sick, crazy people. But they always flush out the disgusting, reprobates ready to capitalize off of it to further an agenda. They are part of the problem. These sick individuals aren't fit to lick the dirt off my boots.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

kinderfeld said:


> The indians didn't have such immigration laws in place. The U.S. does.


...and they lived to regret it.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> Here's my plan. The basic objective is to get the schools to take on the responsibility to protect their students. Of course, there need to be defensive measures, but the teachers are in a position to identify potential problem students. Teachers need to be trained and each school needs to develop a policy for dealing with problem students. Many school shootings could be prevented if teachers were more proactive and the schools took appropriate preventative actions.
> 
> *My 9 Point Plan*
> 
> ...


Success rate of such a program will be very close to zero.

Remember-- we're trying to prevent a VERY rare event- It happens less than once a year among 352 Million people. We must concede that the rarity makes it impossible to separate it from mere unpredictable chance. Every once in a while someone gets struck by lightening while in a buffalo stampede.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> What's your solution that won't violate any rights?


I don't know an effective way to weed out nuts and idiots, but I know that's what we need.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

doc- said:


> ...and they lived to regret it.


They couldn't enforce their will. We can...but, choose not to.
Pretty stupid, huh?


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Would we rather live in a country with extensive private ownership of guns and suffer the regretful deaths of 15- 50 innocents in mass shootings each year or in a country with no private ownership of guns and be under the heel of armed govt agents imposing their despotic will on us by force and threat of death?

Let's hear no more crap about restriciting gun ownership.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Gun ownership is already restricted. Like it or not. As it should be. Letting crazy people have guns is not acceptable. The only real question is how to do that and not restrict it for those that are not crazy.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I don't know an effective way to weed out nuts and idiots, but I know that's what we need.


Most have turned out to be liberals. Their also the largest group of haters and proponents of violent behavior. Blm, antifa, etc...
Lets start with punishment for lawbreakers. Then, let's look at school curriculum and ask why haven't the liberals instituted mental health policies in the decades since Reagan, along with the democrats, decided that the mental ill had rights and closed down some of the institutions. Why haven't the liberals who have had the power to change this, done anything? Maybe we should start by evaluating those that use cnn, msnbc as factual news sources first for their mental stability??


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Gun ownership is already restricted. Like it or not. As it should be. Letting crazy people have guns is not acceptable. The only real question is how to do that and not restrict it for those that are not crazy.


Great, I agree. Whats your solution? Who, determines what constitutes crazy?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Good guys with guns. Armed and trained teachers and administrators.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Well, you can start with stopping dragging the politics and putdowns into the conversation. 


JeffreyD said:


> Most have turned out to be liberals. Their also the largest group of haters and proponents of violent behavior. Blm, antifa, etc...
> Lets start with punishment for lawbreakers. Then, let's look at school curriculum and ask why haven't the liberals instituted mental health policies in the decades since Reagan, along with the democrats, decided that the mental ill had rights and closed down some of the institutions. Why haven't the liberals who have had the power to change this, done anything? Maybe we should start by evaluating those that use cnn, msnbc as factual news sources first for their mental stability??





JeffreyD said:


> Great, I agree. Whats your solution? Who, determines what constitutes crazy?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

JeffreyD said:


> Thats what your party wants, not what conservatives want...remember that.


Down from 26 to 16 until last week. They hired four. I told the town councilman today to put dead or alive posters up. It's a bidding war from town to town on salary...


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

doc- said:


> Success rate of such a program will be very close to zero.
> 
> Remember-- we're trying to prevent a VERY rare event- It happens less than once a year among 352 Million people. We must concede that the rarity makes it impossible to separate it from mere unpredictable chance. Every once in a while someone gets struck by lightening while in a buffalo stampede.


Closer to 100%. The school did not provide adequate security. Teachers did not sign up for Texas's program to be trained to carry a gun. If schools are locked down as they should be, the shooter is unlikely to get in, and if they do an armed guard is there to take him out. I would make it a requirement that either the principal, asst principal, coach, or someone in the administration office is trained and armed. When the guard is not there, they fill in. If no one from the school is available, they must coordinate with the police or security company for a substitute.

Training the teachers to detect certain behaviors is something teachers should be taught anyway. Whether it is drugs, depression, or threatening behavior, it should be a teacher's responsibility to identify it and report it to the school counselor.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Gun ownership is already restricted. Like it or not. As it should be. Letting crazy people have guns is not acceptable. The only real question is how to do that and not restrict it for those that are not crazy.


Lock up the crazies.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> I understand your line of reasoning so I'll ask-
> If screening only some rather than all is what you feel is needed, then who is responsible for determining the protocol?


First line of defense, when adults around a child/teenager (parents, guardians, grandparents, teachers, ministers, etc) notice something off and try to get help, it would be helpful if resources existed and there were people to point those in need toward the resources. They often don't exist, and if they do, they are difficult to locate and access.

Screening everyone for mental illness is a waste of effort and money. Mental illnesses affect people's lives enough to be classified as mental illnesses, by definition, and are often, if not always, readily obvious if people bother to take a look. In children they often show up as behavioral issues that are very obvious to anyone in daily contact with the child.

There doesn't have to be a protocol. There have to be resources other than warehousing these children in special education classrooms until graduation (I've been a parent teacher's aide in these classrooms, they are not there to "treat" anything, it's warehousing, pure and simple), or constantly suspending/expelling them. 

It's not the system of determining who has mental health problems that needs to be fixed, it's the system that has very limited resources available for those who already have apparent issues that needs to be fixed. There have been more than a handful of these mass killers in recent years who had a history of mental health problems that were never given treatment, or were never given adequate treatment. That is the part that we really need to be working on.

Bonus, I think it would eventually help the homeless apocalypse we are currently experiencing along with a bunch of other societal problems.



GTX63 said:


> How would mental health guidelines have prevented the Chinese man from the shooting at the Tiawanese church?
> How would it have prevented the black man from shooting up the subway in New York?
> I am using a few descriptives because much of the crime and mass shootings do not have to do with mental health, and the fad with pigeonholing a white guy who shoots multiple victims automatically as a supremist, while ignoring the true nature of certain crimes is political.
> Every response should be a filter. Nothing is foolproof and some filters are better than others.


I was responding to this particular event, which involved a very young adult who seems to have had some behavioral/mental health issues in his past (from current reporting). Also in my mind were the handful of others in recent years where parents/guardians have stated that they have been trying to get help before these tragedies happen, to no avail.

That said, "normal" people don't decide to go shoot a place up (or bomb a place, or machete a place, or...). Both of the people you mention have some sort of racial/ethnic/tribal motivation for what they did. Are you suggesting that someone intervening at some point earlier (not necessarily by force, either, which seems to be an assumption of how this has to work) could not have changed their way of thinking or behaving so that these events never occurred?

You're right, nothing is foolproof. But the odds of success of stopping these incidents by trying to change behaviors through mental health care are much higher than the odds of stopping them by fortifying everything. You're not dealing with the root of the problem, you're just reacting to the problem. The problem continues to exist.



GTX63 said:


> Locking down schools is not the same as a prison. A prisoner faces a bigger risk from the other inmates than he does from the outside world.


The media attention around school shootings started with Columbine, and has continued with more. I would argue that the other inmates can be just as dangerous to the prisoners as the psychopath on the street.



GTX63 said:


> If you left your children with a babysitter, would you be happy with the sitter just telling anyone who knocks on the door to come on in? If you made her lock the doors when you left, would it feel like a prison to your kids?
> Who is more worthy of our care and protection, the employees of a Federal building, a courthouse, an NFL stadium, or kids guilty of nothing more than wanting to learn, socialize and experience a breif period of innocence?


I'm not sure what the schools are like where you live, but in my school districts they are all closed campuses. The high school has been since my youngest was a junior (2009-2010), and I'm not sure what year the elementary schools closed the campuses as my kids were older, but they have been for a good long while.

It doesn't solve the core problem, but it can (possibly, assuming the attackers aren't students) reduce incidents/casualties. Reacting by protecting people is good and necessary in places, but if you don't attack core causes, you can just expect more of the same with shifting targets. Schools, churches, grocery stores, festivals, marathons, sporting events...

We'll just spend our money making the world one enclosed prison with little enclosed sections that we fearfully run between instead of actually dealing with what is causing the problem in the first place. It seems, excuse me, crazy to me.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Well, you can start with stopping dragging the politics and putdowns into the conversation.


Great, whats your solution?
Remember, facts don't care about your feelz.
You can stop injecting politics and personal attacks into the conversation and actually converse, but you just can't help yourself can you?
Eta: others have "injected" politics into this thread too, yet you don't seem appalled about that. Seems to be a pattern here with you.
Have the day you deserve!


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

[


JeffreyD said:


> Great, whats your solution?
> Remember, facts don't care about your feelz.
> You can stop injecting politics and personal attacks into the conversation and actually converse, but you just can't help yourself can you?


Spewing more putdowns does not foster conversation.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Evons hubby said:


> Lock up the crazies.


It is mental health awareness month!!!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> [
> 
> Spewing more putdowns does not foster conversation.


Ok, so you have no solution. Just say it instead of trying to be a victim....again.
So why do you continue? What "putdowns" are there?
Facts? You spew all the time....mirror, pot, etc...


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Mish said:


> It doesn't solve the core problem, but it can (possibly, assuming the attackers aren't students) reduce incidents/casualties. Reacting by protecting people is good and necessary in places, but if you don't attack core causes, you can just expect more of the same with shifting targets. Schools, churches, grocery stores, festivals, marathons, sporting events...
> 
> We'll just spend our money making the world one enclosed prison with little enclosed sections that we fearfully run between instead of actually dealing with what is causing the problem in the first place. It seems, excuse me, crazy to me.


I would fear sending my children to a school wide open to the uninvited public. 
Prisons are for incarceration and protecting the public from what is in the prison. The idea is for schools to protect what is in the school.

What is the core cause of murder? It has become the trend to label, sublabel, and sub sub label it.
Opposing forces in our country are struggling for either retaining or redefining the word. Thus, there will be no unified and solid approach in the near term that will work.
Treasure is to be protected. If everyday you leave your home unlocked as you travel to work, and you return to find your money gone on Monday, your cat dead on Tuesday, your tv stolen on Wednesday, you can rally the neighbors to form a local neighborhood watch, but in the end, you lock your doors and your secure the things that matter to you.
You look for the people that seem unfamiliar in your neighborhood, you report the suspicious, but in the end it won't matter if you are unwilling to make your treasure innaccessible.


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

thesedays said:


> Until a teacher hits YOUR child, of course.
> 
> I've heard it before and will again - bring back torture as a method of discipline, and all of society's problems will disappear. Got it.


🙄


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

My kids never shot anybody and they grew up with access to firearms their entire lives.
How about we start putting the blame where it belongs on lousy parents who let their kids grow wild like a weed, unsupervised and generally unparented.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Nevada said:


> So the answer is to defund the police?


Your lack of reading comprehension is showing again..


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

JeffreyD said:


> Great, whats your solution?
> Remember, facts don't care about your feelz.
> You can stop injecting politics and personal attacks into the conversation and actually converse, but you just can't help yourself can you?
> Eta: others have "injected" politics into this thread too, yet you don't seem appalled about that. Seems to be a pattern here with you.
> Have the day you deserve!


It is a moral issue that has been politicized so much that many no longer can parse the difference.
Restricting firearms ownership will not stop murders like this. It never has.
Fewer guns doesn't alter the morality of why someone murders children.
Sorry for the bad feelz to those that imagine it would, but they may not comprehend when guns were more in the open, more prevalent and the attitude towards firearms was more relaxed and it should have been.


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Nevada said:


> What this is about is liking some laws but not others.
> 
> With gun control the real problem is that it doesn't take guns from people who shouldn't have guns. Idiots shouldn't have guns, but we have no way of weeding them out.


All Gun Control Laws are Unconstitutional… “Shall not be infringed “ means exactly what it says.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Nevada said:


> While that story might be fictional, I've known several gun collectors that I wouldn't trust with a spring-action BB gun.


🙄


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Let suppose that on Chicago's south side there are say, 100,000 guns. The crime rate is 13k per 100,000 residents. Sweep in and remove every single firearm so that in a ie 30 square block radius, no one has a gun. Now, of those 100k guns, maybe half of those were legally owned by residents of the area. What do you suppose happens to the crime rate?


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

Cornhusker said:


> If you bothered to turn off CNN, you'd know it's illegal for someone with mental problems or a felony to own guns.
> Enforce the laws, people with known mental problems need to be treated and monitored and stop releasing violent criminals (thanks democrats)
> Amazing what you'll tolerate for a few votes.


Can we post this on a few billboards. 

Enforce the laws, people with known mental problems need to be treated and monitored and stop releasing violent criminals


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

MoonRiver said:


> Closer to 100%.


The success rate of what we're already doing is pretty dang close to 100%. A kid is probably more likely to die of covid than die in a school shooting.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

ryanthomas said:


> The success rate of what we're already doing is pretty dang close to 100%. A kid is probably more likely to die of covid than die in a school shooting.


In other words, it is so rare, that doing nothing is effective.

But if the politicians are going to do something, they might as well as do something that might help.


----------



## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

Fishindude said:


> My kids never shot anybody and they grew up with access to firearms their entire lives.
> How about we start putting the blame where it belongs on lousy parents who let their kids grow wild like a weed, unsupervised and generally unparented.


As stated above. I would not put this all on the parent feet. I have know family's who were scared of their own children but they could not find anyone to help them. Short of throwing the kid out on the street. I know one family who moved their problem teen out into a shed in the back yard to try and protect the other children in the house.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Mish said:


> Here in the southwest you can't assume everyone with a Hispanic last name is here illegally, or even first generation. A lot families with Hispanic surnames have been in this area/country longer than some of you with Anglo surnames.
> 
> My first husband has a Hispanic surname. His family has been in the U.S. for generations. Our daughter has his surname. Members of my family (and thus hers) were in the Revolutionary war.
> 
> I don't know what this particular person's deal is, but painting everyone with a Hispanic surname as an illegal or first generation is really kind of annoying.


I know a man of Hispanic descent whose family has been in the U.S. since the 1920s, and he had a relative in another city who found out the hard way that anyone with a Hispanic surname was automatically enrolled in the ESL program. It took a lot of intervention to get this reversed for their kids.

I also used to have a pen pal of Hispanic descent who had a blond, blue-eyed cousin, full-blooded Scandinavian, who qualified for a minority business loan because of his own Hispanic surname. His real dad had died when he was very young, and his mother married a Hispanic man when he was a preschooler and legally adopted him.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

kinderfeld said:


> Bingo.
> You can't just walk into schools around here. You have to hit the buzzer and show ID. And, there is always a cop on duty.


I may already have said this, but the one school I've encountered that was on permanent lockdown, with a guard at the door who I'm pretty sure was armed, was a K-3 school in a quiet middle-class neighborhood in a small city in rural Illinois. That's because this was the school attended by the children that age who lived at the domestic violence shelter, and while IDK if they'd ever had any threats, that's why the guard was there, and the guard was also a contracted employee of that shelter.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Fishindude said:


> My kids never shot anybody and they grew up with access to firearms their entire lives.
> How about we start putting the blame where it belongs on lousy parents who let their kids grow wild like a weed, unsupervised and generally unparented.


I believe that a lot of this is a result of deinstitutionalization, and also Internet dating, enabling people who otherwise wouldn't have been able to find partners and reproduce, to do so.

However, there were a lot of people in mental institutions who didn't belong there, the main reason being that they were gay, or even suspected of being gay (male or female) and this was an adequate reason to get someone locked up.


----------



## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Nevada said:


> While that story might be fictional, I've known several gun collectors that I wouldn't trust with a spring-action BB gun.


Some concealed-carry people do it, because they're HOPING to have a chance to pull their gun and "take out a bad guy." Those are precisely the people I would NOT want doing it.

FTR, most police officers never pull, let alone use, their guns, and when they do, it's more likely to be used to shoot an injured animal than on a criminal.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

doc- said:


> Would we rather live in a country with extensive private ownership of guns and suffer the regretful deaths of 15- 50 innocents in mass shootings each year or in a country with no private ownership of guns and be under the heel of armed govt agents imposing their despotic will on us by force and threat of death?
> 
> Let's hear no more crap about restriciting gun ownership.


Yeah, and most people who say things like this, were they faced with needing to use their guns, would actually curl up in the corner and pee their pants.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Gun ownership is already restricted. Like it or not. As it should be. Letting crazy people have guns is not acceptable. The only real question is how to do that and not restrict it for those that are not crazy.


And it's the ammosexual crowd that are standing in the way.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> Let suppose that on Chicago's south side there are say, 100,000 guns. The crime rate is 13k per 100,000 residents. Sweep in and remove every single firearm so that in a ie 30 square block radius, no one has a gun. Now, of those 100k guns, maybe half of those were legally owned by residents of the area. What do you suppose happens to the crime rate?


Removing the ILLEGAL guns? What's wrong with that?

Oh, yeah, most of the people who are shooting each other, and their victims, are black gang members. Got it.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

thesedays said:


> Some concealed-carry people do it, because they're HOPING to have a chance to pull their gun and "take out a bad guy." Those are precisely the people I would NOT want doing it.
> 
> FTR, most police officers never pull, let alone use, their guns, and when they do, it's more likely to be used to shoot an injured animal than on a criminal.


I’ll call BS on this as I’ve not only worked in Law Enforcement but I’ve also taught Pistol and Carbine Classes for years. You have no clue what you’re talking about.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

thesedays said:


> Removing the ILLEGAL guns? What's wrong with that?
> 
> Oh, yeah, most of the people who are shooting each other, and their victims, are black gang members. Got it.


🙄


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

thesedays said:


> I believe that a lot of this is a result of deinstitutionalization, and also Internet dating, enabling people who otherwise wouldn't have been able to find partners and reproduce, to do so.
> 
> However, there were a lot of people in mental institutions who didn't belong there, the main reason being that they were gay, or even suspected of being gay (male or female) and this was an adequate reason to get someone locked up.


🙄


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

If anyone cares to work on the street I'm on bring full firepower. .. It takes a lot to bother me!!!


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## link30240 (Aug 22, 2021)

JeffreyD said:


> Great, I agree. Whats your solution? Who, determines what constitutes crazy?


You can start with people who dont even know what gender they are! 100% sign of mental illness!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

thesedays said:


> Removing the ILLEGAL guns? What's wrong with that?
> 
> Oh, yeah, most of the people who are shooting each other, and their victims, are black gang members. Got it.


That isn't what I posted.

Young black men, young black women, little black boys and girls are being killed daily in Chicago in record numbers...again.
The same people on tv virtue signaling themselves into an orgasm over this school shooting can't be bothered to care about those deaths. They name shootings after the school, but they have nothing to say about Chicago.

So no, sorry for you, you didn't get it.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

thesedays said:


> Removing the ILLEGAL guns? What's wrong with that?
> 
> Oh, yeah, most of the people who are shooting each other, and their victims, are black gang members. Got it.


You find me a person who is against the idea of removing guns from the possession of people who are not legally eligible to own them, and I’ll show you a person who has advocated for defunding the police, decriminalizing crime, giving endless second chances to criminals and otherwise sounding like… well… you and the media who tell you what to think.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Just because I don't get my news from OANN doesn't mean I'm soft on crime.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

When was the last time we heard of a shooting in a courthouse? Maybe the schools could learn from those judges,they seem to know how to protect themselves.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Nevada said:


> If we can't stop evildoers then what's the point of police?


The police stopped this one before he could increase his toll.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

The police waited 90 minutes and a school guard let him get into the building. I don't think they did such a good job


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Mental health care needs to be as easy to access as medical health care. While it may not stop every potential murderer, it may help find the ones who have the potential to become a murderer. And I don't mean just school shooters. Many killers show signs of mental problems long before they seek out their first human victim. We also need to remove the stigma surrounding those who seek mental health professionals. Just because a person hits a rough spot they should not be labeled as unstable for the rest of their life.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

There was no sign of mental illness with this child. There was lots of anger.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

painterswife said:


> The police waited 90 minutes and a school guard let him get into the building. I don't think they did such a good job











Justice Department to review law enforcement response to Texas school shooting


Authorities say the 18-year-old gunman who killed 21 people at a Texas elementary school was in the building for over an hour before he was killed by law enforcement officers.




www.wvtm13.com





This article says 40 minutes and the responding police had to get a key to get into the classroom. Citizens at the scene considered storming the building because the police were slow to respond.

How does a security guard allow an armed individual access through a, should have been locked, back door? 

The people around him claim there were no mental health issues. But he was getting into a lot of fights and dropped out of school only a few days before graduation. His grandfather said in one interview that if he knew the shooter had bought guns, he would have called the police.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

40 minutes then. A security guard failed to stop him and police did not go in while he continued to murder children. Sorry but I don't think the armed officers stopped much. They just took him out after the damage was already done.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

However long it took was too long. The security guard should be tried as an accomplice to murder, IMO. 

The point was that police did eliminate the threat, eventually.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

The point is armed police and an armed school guard did not stop it in the first place or even prevent more death. He got himself into one classroom and did as much damage as he could in that classroom. He wore protective gear and that would likely make it hard for an armed teacher who is trying to protect children, fail in stopping him. Teachers can be armed in Texas. That made no difference in this situation.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Teachers were not armed in this situation. Locked doors and a real security guard would have been a deterrent.

In a short range situation there are ways around body armor. Shooting below the waist is acceptable in a life or death encounter.

The short version is that the security measures put in place at this school failed. Why did the guard allow an armed person access to the school?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Yes, teachers were not armed even though they could have been. You can't force teachers to be armed or so that can't be relied on. Even then teachers don't wear protective gear and that means they can be taken out easily before they even get a chance to get their gun.

Do you have evidence that doors were not locked and it was not a "real" security guard?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Yes, teachers were not armed even though they could have been. You can't force teachers to be armed or so that can't be relied on. Even then teachers don't wear protective gear and that means they can be taken out easily before they even get a chance to get their gun.
> 
> Do you have evidence that doors were not locked and it was not a "real" security guard?


The security guard didn't prevent a person carrying guns and a bag from entering the building. Access was gained through a back door which should have been locked.









What we know so far about the school shooting in Uvalde, Texas


Tuesday's attack at Robb Elementary School took the lives of 21 people. An additional 17 people were injured.




www.npr.org





"He took off in his grandmother's car, later crashing it not far from Robb Elementary School. He then approached the school, encountered a school resource officer (though no gunfire was exchanged) and entered through a back door on campus."

There is evidence the boy had mental problems but no one cared to look into the situation.









School Drop-Out Gave Warning on Facebook Minutes Before Uvalde Massacre


Salvador Ramos, an unemployed teenager who appeared to grow angry and isolated recently, wrote three Facebook posts in the 30 minutes before he headed to Robb Elementary.




www.thedailybeast.com


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Just a thought. There are 2 conflicting social premises: one being self-responsibility and the other being victimhood. 

Could it be that the wrong one has taken root in our society? It is probably an oversimplification, but maybe not.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

There are reports that the School Safety officer was armed.









After Uvalde school shooting, Texas attorney general suggests arming teachers. Educators disagree.


A long-running proposal has little appeal to many teachers, who are already exhausted from a year of COVID-19, overwork and curriculum battles.




19thnews.org


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Yes, teachers were not armed even though they could have been. You can't force teachers to be armed or so that can't be relied on. Even then teachers don't wear protective gear and that means they can be taken out easily before they even get a chance to get their gun.
> 
> Do you have evidence that doors were not locked and it was not a "real" security guard?


Yes, you can force teachers to be armed. The question is, should you? You can offer incentives. You could make it a requirement that each school has a minimum number of teachers who are armed. That, in some cases, would give preference to teachers willing to be trained and armed. You could require at least one administrative person to be armed. You could give preference to gym teachers willing to be armed.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MoonRiver said:


> Yes, you can force teachers to be armed. The question is, should you? You can offer incentives. You could make it a requirement that each school has a minimum number of teachers who are armed. That, in some cases, would give preference to teachers willing to be trained and armed. You could require at least one administrative person to be armed. You could give preference to gym teachers willing to be armed.


The safety officer was reportedly armed. That did not stop him. He went into one classroom. The chances are that that teacher would not be armed. Two were there and not armed.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

There are multiple Knox boxes on all the schools here. The delay in getting a key (if true) is a huge failure. I can run and get a master key at any local school in under 90 seconds. And I'm fat and old.

The security guard should be charged with something if they let him in. But hiring a Barney Fife for security will never work. There has to be properly trained and effective guard. There are law enforcement officers (SRO) in middle and high schools here.

There were vestibules added to all the schools here with shatterproof glass. They used a combination of federal and state money to do it. 

Teachers should never be required to carry. Those that want to should be trained by the state. But there are ways to have voluntary armed staff that can/will respond. Lock boxes for trained staff in specific locations. A local maintenance employee that's willing can be trained.


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## HomeCreek (Dec 30, 2021)

We have a sheriffs deputy assigned to each school. Its nothing but a feel good measure. If I am a student and I plan to do something stupid like shoot other students and I was worried about the deputy Id just shoot him first. The schools I work in the deputy is usually just casually standing around flirting with a teacher or talking sports with a male teacher or administrator. Walk up and pop him before he even realizes you are even around. 

The only real deterrent...and this is based off my background in the military as a combat veteran as well as at one point owning my own executive protection service...fancy term for bodyguard. And the fact I have worked over a decade in public schools. The only real deterrent and its not going to be 100 percent.....arm some of the staff. And make sure nobody knows which staff it is. Or what they have at their disposal. Maybe the coach has a pistol. Maybe the principal has a long gun in a safe in the office. Make sure theres a number of individuals sufficient enough to have reasonable coverage. In my case pre k to 12th grade is one giant building. It would take at least 6. More the better. But 6 would do. Have a vest for each to keep nearby. 

I know this isnt feasible for a lot of schools. I know there are whole segments of our population who have never used a firearm or even been in the area of one being fired. But for a large swath of the country its not at all uncommon for just about all the men in a school hunt and or have a military etc background and have had firearms a regular part of their lives all their lives. 

Ive heard the argument of "well theyd end up shooting each other" or "the police wont know who is who" 
Thats solved simply by assigning areas. Coach Jones gets A and B hall. Mrs Jackson gets C and D and so on. NOBODY is to leave their assigned coverage during an event for any reason. Also provide each one a vest sorta like the blaze orange hunter vest. Assign a color and keep the color secret. So no copycat. Cops go in sees an adult with a hot pink vest thats a no shoot. 

To show you how stupid the policies can be. We have 3 people on staff. They also work law enforcement. One is a chief of a small town nearby. He has 17 yrs law enforcement state and local and 9 military. He is also on the sheriffs department emergency response tactical team. He also teaches sniper class to other police swat etc teams. He is a part time employee in the transportation dept. He was told in front of me "i dont care what you are or what you have been or what experience you have...if you have a firearm on you or in your vehicle not only are you fired but we will prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law" Now....tell me how that makes any sense at all?


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

And the expense excuses don't hold water. You say it would cost a billion per year. 

How much money did we send to Ukraine again? Afghanistan? Iraq? 

How much are we sending to central american countries to stop illegal immigration? 

Hell, use the military. 

Come on y'all.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HomeCreek said:


> To show you how stupid the policies can be. We have 3 people on staff. They also work law enforcement. One is a chief of a small town nearby. He has 17 yrs law enforcement state and local and 9 military. He is also on the sheriffs department emergency response tactical team. He also teaches sniper class to other police swat etc teams. He is a part time employee in the transportation dept. He was told in front of me "i dont care what you are or what you have been or what experience you have...if you have a firearm on you or in your vehicle not only are you fired but we will prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law" Now....tell me how that makes any sense at all?


 It doesnt make sense, you are right Homecreek, and the fool that said that should themselves be fired, and if the board set up those rules, they should be voted out.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Do you have evidence that doors were not locked and it was not a "real" security guard?


If the security guard let a person armed with an AR-15 into the school, then no...it wasn't a real security guard.


----------



## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

nchobbyfarm said:


> Teachers should never be required to carry. Those that want to should be trained by the state. But there are ways to have voluntary armed staff that can/will respond. Lock boxes for trained staff in specific locations. A local maintenance employee that's willing can be trained.


If I was Head of Education at a University, I would add a gun course to the curricula. A starting teacher who is trained and willing to carry a gun could make an extra 2 or 3 thousand a year.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> The police stopped this one before he could increase his toll.


No they didn't.


painterswife said:


> The police waited 90 minutes and a school guard let him get into the building. I don't think they did such a good job


They did a piss poor job.

Someone from the border patrol took care of it. While "police" were dicking around outside, an off duty border agent went in with no back up and killed that sick SOB.

_An off-duty Customs and Border Protection agent from an elite tactical unit is the hero who shot and killed the Robb Elementary School gunman before he could continue his massacre, reports said Wednesday. 
The agent, a member of CBP’s Border Patrol Tactical Unit (BORTAC), rushed into the school while the shooter was still active and began exchanging rounds with the gunman, who was barricaded inside a fourth-grade classroom, NBC and Fox reported. _









Hero border agent from elite unit rushed into Texas school with no backup, killed Salvador Ramos: reports


An off-duty Customs and Border Protection agent from the Border Patrol Tactical Unit is the hero who shot and killed Texas school shooter Salvador Ramos in Robb Elementary School.




nypost.com













Texas school shooting: Hat reveals close brush with death for elite Border Patrol agent who killed gunman


A hat worn by an elite BORTAC Border Patrol agent was hit by a bullet when he engaged the gunman who killed 21 people inside Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas.




www.foxnews.com


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Sorry A$$ job on security. We carry more gear in the service trucks than any police officer in this town. I've spent too much time and effort to lose one street... Uncle ticked off the mayor and none of the local police will return my calls...


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

All,
I had a thought and I want to know what your opinion is as far as the impact it would have on the school shootings.
What if we simply take all the signs for the schools down? Students would be more difficult to target if there weren't billboards pointing deranged people to facilities where kids are. Just sayin'. I mean, locals would of course know where the schools are but in the heat of a mental illness fit this might actually help.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

RJ2019 said:


> All,
> I had a thought and I want to know what your opinion is as far as the impact it would have on the school shootings.
> What if we simply take all the signs for the schools down? Students would be more difficult to target if there weren't billboards pointing deranged people to facilities where kids are. Just sayin'. I mean, locals would of course know where the schools are but in the heat of a mental illness fit this might actually help.


Are you aware that school shootings are done by people that have gone to the schools or live in those neighborhoods? Signs make no difference.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

painterswife said:


> Are you aware that school shootings are done by people that have gone to the schools or live in those neighborhoods? Signs make no difference.


Not necessarily.


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

painterswife said:


> There are reports that the School Safety officer was armed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's also a "scaredy cop" scandal brewing. Evidently cops refused to enter the school as parents pleaded with them to stop the shooter for as much as an hour.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

RJ2019 said:


> Not necessarily.


Get back to me when my statement is proven wrong. It sure was the case in this shooting.


----------



## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

🙄


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

painterswife said:


> Get back to me when my statement is proven wrong. It sue was the case in this shooting.


Years ago Justice Warren Burger (a conservative appointed by Nixon) gave an interview where the 2nd Amendment came up. He pointed out that the 2nd Amendment provided that a militia be well regulated, so it's difficult to imagine that the constitutional framers didn't intend for the general public to be regulated as well.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Nevada said:


> Years ago Justice Warren Burger (a conservative) gave an interview where the 2nd Amendment came up. He pointed out that the 2nd Amendment provided that a militia be well regulated, so it's difficult to imagine that the constitutional framers didn't intend for the general public to be regulated as well.


What does that have to do with my statement about signs on schools?


----------



## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

painterswife said:


> What does that have to do with my statement about signs on schools?


Nothing. I just wanted to point that out without having a conservative jump down my throat. 

It may still happen though...


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Get back to me when my statement is proven wrong. It sure was the case in this shooting.


In this case you are correct. Signs would not have made a difference. The perp was a student at the local high school and lived in the area.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Nevada said:


> Nothing. I just wanted to point that out without having a conservative jump down my throat.
> 
> It may still happen though...


Then don't involve me. Stand on your own two feet.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Were are the reports showing the security guard let the shooter in? I cannot find a story from a reputable source reporting this.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

The safety officer reports are not complete. He was armed and engaged with the shooter but other than that there is not good info.


----------



## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Interesting read: https://news.yahoo.com/switzerland-stunningly-high-rate-gun-221301791.html


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

@kinderfeld, kudos to the Border Patrol. Some of the news stories just say police.



nchobbyfarm said:


> Were are the reports showing the security guard let the shooter in? I cannot find a story from a reputable source reporting this.


I don't know if the "security guard" let him in, but he darn sure didn't stop him. How can you turn your back on somebody carrying guns to a school and approaching a back door?


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

The questions police need to answer over Texas school shooting


As a clearer picture emerges of Tuesday's horrific school shooting in Texas, there are growing questions over why it took so long for police and school resource officers to get to the killer.




www.dailymail.co.uk





1) Why didn't school resource officer stop Ramos at school entrance when he first arrived?

A school resource officer whose job it is to stop shooters was unable to stop Ramos from strolling into the school with an AR-15.

*The gunman instead bypassed him 'unimpeded', according to sources, to make his way inside.*

That resource officer has not yet been identified. There are at least two at Uvalde Elementary School.

2) Who were the two cops who encountered him first and why weren't they able to stop him either?

*Within seconds of arriving at the school and before he got into the classroom, two other law enforcement officers were there.

They followed the shooter to the classroom, according to law enforcement sources cited by The New York Times, but he shot at them and then barricaded himself.

They then retreated, and a tactical SWAT team who were nearby raiding stash houses arrived at the scene and took over.*

3) How was the shooter able to barricade himself inside classroom with kids?

Once he got to the classroom, Ramos barricaded himself inside.

*It took at least another hour before police announced that they had killed him.

In that time, one law enforcement source says SWAT teams were struggling to breach the door that he'd locked.*

By then, he had murdered 19 children and two teachers.

It remains unclear what kind of doors were in the classroom and if they were self-locking and designed to keep shooters out in an active situation.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I told you that you wouldn't like it. * But now you have to own it.*
> 
> YOU CANNOT STOP SOMEONE INTENT ON EVIL.
> 
> That's going to save us a lot on police, border security, and even the military. We just have to accept that we can't stop them. Right?


No. You need to come up with more intelligent contributions to the conversation.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Ok. So he didn't just let the shooter in as was stated. 

Any discussion about how he gained entry is speculation at this point.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> The police waited 90 minutes and a school guard let him get into the building. I don't think they did such a good job


Sounds like the "insurrection"!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Years ago Justice Warren Burger (a conservative appointed by Nixon) gave an interview where the 2nd Amendment came up. He pointed out that the 2nd Amendment provided that a militia be well regulated, so it's difficult to imagine that the constitutional framers didn't intend for the general public to be regulated as well.


Well, here we are, well regulated in almost every way!
You were saying??


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

From some of the articles I was reading, I think the 90 minutes started when he shot his own grandmother in the face before stealing her truck and crashing it.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Nothing. I just wanted to point that out without having a conservative jump down my throat.
> 
> It may still happen though...


Only when your wrong(which is a lot of the time) or confused(which again, is a lot of the time)
So wrong about so much so often....


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

I've been running around town getting things done so I many not have heard the latest. I heard on the radio that the suspect was not challenged outside of the school on his way in. I also heard that the border patrol took him down. What were the rest of the cops doing?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

It was a border patrol special tactical team brought in. The local cops were in the school when he entered or shortly after and failed to stop him. The local cops were not prepared to handle the situation. Other teams were brought in.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

gilberte said:


> When was the last time we heard of a shooting in a courthouse? Maybe the schools could learn from those judges,they seem to know how to protect themselves.


Google "courthouse shooting" and you'll find plenty of them. There was one that made worldwide headlines a while back.





__





CNN.com - 'I felt really, really scared' - Mar 15, 2005






www.cnn.com


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> The questions police need to answer over Texas school shooting
> 
> 
> As a clearer picture emerges of Tuesday's horrific school shooting in Texas, there are growing questions over why it took so long for police and school resource officers to get to the killer.
> ...


Maybe they haven't been named and didn't stop him because there was no armed SRO there... I don't know for sure, but that may be a factor... ya think?



> 2) Who were the two cops who encountered him first and why weren't they able to stop him either?
> 
> *Within seconds of arriving at the school and before he got into the classroom, two other law enforcement officers were there.
> 
> ...


Ummm... the two people he encountered outside the school were civilians standing outside a local business. He did not encountered officers before or upon entering the school building... which he did through an unlocked back door.

He wrecked the truck at 11:30, encountered the two civilians a couple of minutes later, jumped a fence and entered the school. By 11:40 police were in the building and engaged in an active gunfight with the suspect. He was under cover in the doorway of the classroom... the officers had 30+ feet of open, unobstructed hallway to traverse before possibly approaching the shooter. They took cover and called for assistance while still engaging the shooter.

The shooter backed further into the classroom, locking and barricading the door. The officers on scene at this point never followed the shooter into the classroom. They tried to keep him occupied while manpower and equipment to breach the door arrived.



> 3) How was the shooter able to barricade himself inside classroom with kids?
> 
> Once he got to the classroom, Ramos barricaded himself inside.
> 
> ...


Why, you ask, did they have to wait for equipment and personnel? School doors are typically steel or reinforced heavy wood... designed to be both personnel and fire resistant. They are mounted in heavy steel frames with substantial locking bolts... and they open out.

Of course they were struggling to breach the door. In a military operation they would have used a breaching charge (actually three or four at the lock and hinge points)... but LEO's typically don't have this option. Likely they were using pry bars, as a battering ram would be minimally effective (at best) in pushing IN an outward opening reinforced, steel frame door.

There is a reason that doorways (and other areas) are called "fatal funnels" in both military and law enforcement jargon.

Unfortunately the children were likely shot in the opening minute or two.

Since you (and this goes to the other Sunday morning, armchair LEO's also). Maybe you'd use all your training, knowledge and experience to enlighten us as to _exactly_ how you would handle the situation.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

homesteadforty said:


> Maybe they haven't been named and didn't stop him because there was no armjed SRO there... I don't know for sure, but that may be a factor... ya think?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe you should update yourself on what the timeliness is instead of coming at me. The SRO was armed and two police officers were outgunned by the shooter in the school hallway before he made it into the classroom where he the barricaded himself and proceeded to kill people over the next 40 to 60 minutes.

The local police failed to take him down and failed to quickly breech the classroom while he continued to kill.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Maybe you should update yourself on what the timeliness is instead of coming at me. The SRO was armed and two police officers were outgunned by the shooter in the school hallway before he made it into the classroom where he the barricaded himself and proceeded to kill people over the next 40 to 60 minutes.


Not according to the news conference I just watched, given by the OIC (it was given less that an hour ago). I don't know of any more timely information... do you? He stated specifically that there was no armed personnel available at the scene when the suspect entered the building. The suspect entered, walked twenty feet to a hallway, turned left, walked twenty more feet to the classroom door. All the shooting took place before the suspect shut, locked and barricaded the door.

Of course the usual caveat was given that this is priliminary information and subject to change as more information comes in.

I'm not coming at you personally, but you and a number of others seem to have a propensity to "blame the police" before any confirmed information comes out... and that, I will go at... every time.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Maybe you should update yourself on what the timeliness is instead of coming at me. The SRO was armed...


Just and update to the "timeliness" question:






does that clarify anything for you???


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

I could make a quote from Jessie Ventura from the Predator. I might get banned!!!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You mean the quote about all the slack jawed folks?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"The school normally has an armed safety officer. But when Salvador Ramos arrived on Tuesday, "there was not an officer, readily available, armed," and the gunman entered the building "unobstructed," Escalon said."



https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/texas-shooting-police-response-1.6466499



So now they change their story about the armed guard but admit that they could not stop the shooter from barricad himself in a classroom even though they traded gunfire before he did. They do admit that they could not get into the classroom for close to an hour while the shooter continued to kill.

They failed to stop an 18 year old shooter.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)




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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Probably about 12 years ago I picked up my niece from school. First minsral cycle. I knew it was against the law but walked by human resource officer with two 9mm's. I was on the list to sign her out. Look at my signature line!!!


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> "The school normally has an armed safety officer. But when Salvador Ramos arrived on Tuesday, "there was not an officer, readily available, armed," and the gunman entered the building "unobstructed," Escalon said."
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/texas-shooting-police-response-1.6466499


I thought I had heard something similar... as in:



homesteadforty said:


> Maybe they haven't been named and didn't stop him because there was no armed SRO there... I don't know for sure, but that may be a factor... ya think?





> So now they change their story about the armed guard...


Anybody that has half a clue knows that an investigation like this has many, many bits of information that changes. This is exactly one of the reasons why LEO's are reluctant to give information and to speak with reporters. They have just started collecting what will be tens or hundreds of thousands of these bits. Some idjits think they should have everything exactly in order within a couple of hours. They are screwed no matter what... if they initially get something wrong and have to correct it then they're stupid... if they don't give out the information then they are covering something up or the "media" simply makes things up.

Add to that, there are many people who will conjecture as if they actually know something... when in reality they don't.



> but admit that they could not stop the shooter from barricad himself in a classroom even though they traded gunfire before he did.


When you've actually been in fire fights with lead whistling past your ears I may take your critism more seriously. BTW... just to make sure I'm not mistaken I'd better ask... how many fire fights have you been in???



> They do admit that they could not get into the classroom for close to an hour while the shooter continued to kill.


I didn't hear anything about not getting into the classroom


painterswife said:


> while the shooter continued to kill.


please enlighten me as to exactly where I might find this tidbit...



> They failed to stop an 18 year old shooter.


To fail at something one must first have the possibility of succeeding. They didn't fail... by all indications so far they didn't have a chance to succeed.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

The amount of fire fights anyone is in is irrelevant. Armed teachers and school guards and most police officers have been in no firefights with bullets whizzing past their ears. They would be in the same situation as those police officers that failed to stop the shooter.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

painterswife said:


> The amount of fire fights anyone is in is irrelevant.


Not really.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> The amount of fire fights anyone is in is irrelevant. Armed teachers and school guards and most police officers have been in no firefights with bullets whizzing past their ears. They would be in the same situation as those police officers that failed to stop the shooter.


If one criticises anothers actions (or inactions) one would think the critic would have some actual frame of reference to the subject at hand.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

homesteadforty said:


> If one criticises anothers actions (or inactions) one would think the critic would have some actual frame of reference to the subject at hand.


The frame of reference is that these officers were no different than 99 percent of people working in schools, armed or unarmed. Unprepared to handle this situation. That is why they failed and others will continue to fail. That is not their fault. It is the reality of the situation. Arming teachers and staff will not change that reality because they will still have no experience with bullets whizzing past their ears. The majority of law enforcement officers don't either.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> The frame of reference is that these officers were no different than 99 percent of people working in schools, armed or unarmed. Unprepared to handle this situation. That is why they failed and others will continue to fail. That is not their fault. It is the reality of the situation. Arming teachers and staff will not change that reality because they will still have no experience with bullets whizzing past their ears. The majority of law enforcement officers don't either.


At last we agree. I don't think arming teachers and staff is feasible either but LEO's are trained to function under such conditions. Not all will live up to their training but the vast majority will.

As to a viable solution... I'm afraid there isn't one... short of turning schools into actual fortresses with armed gaurds in every hallway.

Give me the authority and means (a.k.a. money) and I could design security that would take an army to circumvent... but it wouldn't be a place anyone would send their children to learn.

I must disagree though with your assertion :



painterswife said:


> that these officers were no different than 99 percent of people working in schools, armed or unarmed. Unprepared to handle this situation.


They stood their ground, _exchanging_ fire, though they were likely outgunned (I haven't heard yet how they were armed). Taking cover is absolutely not an issue... the alternative is to stay in the open and get shot... in which case you a liability as opposed to an asset. In other words... you can't help anyone laying on the floor in a puddle of blood. It sounds to me as if they did exactly what they should have. This was their Kobayashi Maru scenario.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

They were out gunned. Pistols against an ak something and body armor. Likely had little training and resources for this type of situation. Other factors, like no breaching equipment and keys quickly available. A litany of problems that illustrate that arming employees of the schools is not the solution to school shootings.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> They were out gunned. Pistols against an ak something and body armor. Likely had little training and resources for this type of situation. Other factors, like no breaching equipment and keys quickly available. A litany of problems that illustrate that arming employees of the schools is not the solution to school shootings.


Most patrol officers have rifles or shotguns in their cars, so we don't know for a fact that they were outgunned. We do know the shooter had a tactical advantage in positioning.

I know of no patrol officers that carry breaching equipment. At best it's carried in a supervisors car and in some cases is only available to special services units. Breaching is a highly technical skill that most patrol officers are not trained in.

The key issue is a school issue... not a LEO issue.

Why do you keep bringing up "arming employees"? I've said that it's not a realistic idea and I've never said otherwise.

Sorry, have to run for tonight.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Fire departments have breaching equipment. It was an easy find.

Stop with the excuses. They failed no matter why. The reasons are too numerous.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

painterswife said:


> They were out gunned. Pistols against an ak something and body armor. Likely had little training and resources for this type of situation. Other factors, like no breaching equipment and keys quickly available. A litany of problems that illustrate that arming employees of the schools is not the solution to school shootings.


"An ak something"
🤣🤣 Priceless.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Meghan Markle, the wife of Britain’s Prince Harry, on Thursday made an unannounced visit to the Texas town of Uvalde to pay her respects to the victims of an elementary school shooting that left 19 children and two teachers dead. 

Texas gubernatorial hopeful Robert Francis “Beto” O’Rourke (D) took the opportunity to inject himself during Governor Greg Abbott’s Wednesday press conference 

Sick bunch of glory seekers


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Fire departments have breaching equipment. It was an easy find.
> 
> Stop with the excuses. They failed no matter why. The reasons are too numerous.


Duh... fire departments have equipment that will force open doors... when someone is not shooting at you. Tactical breaching equipment is very different. If you can't understand that difference there is no further use discussing it with you.

I'll also add that "why" the situation occured as it did is the whole point of discussing it... geezy peezy.

Please refrain from taking another swing as I walk away... it's very unbecoming.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

homesteadforty said:


> Duh... fire departments have equipment that will force open doors... when someone is not shooting at you. Tactical breaching equipment is very different. If you can't understand that difference there is no further use discussing it with you.
> 
> I'll also add that "why" the situation occured as it did is the whole point of discussing it... geezy peezy.
> 
> Please refrain from taking another swing as I walk away... it's very unbecoming.


They used a key. They did not use tactical breaching equipment. Regular breaching equipment would have worked as well as a key.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

homesteadforty said:


> As to a viable solution... I'm afraid there isn't one... short of turning schools into actual fortresses with armed gaurds in every hallway.


If that back door had been locked, the perp would not have gained access to the building so easily. Locking back doors or having exit only with no re-entry doors on buildings is standard.


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## link30240 (Aug 22, 2021)

Delete, Not worth my time to argue with them


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Now we know what happened at least partially.

Arguing over how the police reacted after they arrived isn't relevant to the discussion of stopping it.

The police response must be looked at separately being a law enforcement response is reactionary. Keeping them out is preparatory.

There were 2 failures that should have prevented the shooter from being able to hurt any kids in the school.

1- The door. They have not issued a statement explaining that failure.

2- The SRO not engaging him. There was not one so this is a failure at a higher level than an SRO (security guard). There must be a replacement when someone is out. Look to who is the commander of the SRO to critique.

Now, the responding LEO's, they had a horrible incident and I will not pile on second guessing them. I couldn't imagine how horrifying to rush in there so they get the benefit of the doubt from me.

They may not have been trained nor have all the equipment for this because it wasn't supposed to happen this way.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> They were out gunned. Pistols against an ak something and body armor. Likely had little training and resources for this type of situation. Other factors, like no breaching equipment and keys quickly available. A litany of problems that illustrate that arming employees of the schools is not the solution to school shootings.


Armed employee of the school would not need breaching equipment or keys. They are already inside and in the school. Body armor for such a employee can be and is easily available, lighter duty protection can be easily worn with or as part of normal attire. Such employees are not the one and only solution, just a part of a security package. 

Seems from the info so far that lots of mistakes made by the school system. Local law enforcment seems to have some issues also.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

I teach in a very poor area of Kentucky. We have a trained and equipped resource officer in each school. We have one unlocked entry to each school. We have no see through film on all windows, interior and exterior. We have plans and procedures for the very unlikely event of a school shooting. The resource officer checks doors to ensure they are locked after each class change. If such common sense things can be done at such a poor school, they can be done anywhere.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Perhaps we could learn some lessons about school security from counties like Israel. They make some serious efforts at security as just a normal everyday process. Nothing will stop the problem with nuts shooting people. This country can do much better at protecting school kids while in school. Others do so in environments much worse than here.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Does anyone else find it a bit odd that the door would be left unlocked and the security guard just happened to be off campus (according to the latest spin on the situation) at the time the perp was entering the school?









Gunman's final 90 minutes fuel questions about police delays


UVALDE, Texas (AP) — It was 11:28 a.m. when the Ford pickup slammed into a ditch behind the low-slung Texas school and the driver jumped out carrying an AR-15-style rifle. Twelve minutes after that, authorities say, 18-year-old Salvador Ramos was in the hallways of Robb Elementary School.




apnews.com





According to this article, he worked at the local Wendy's. But guns, ammo, magazines and tactical vests aren't cheap.









Uvalde school shooting suspect was a loner who bought two assault rifles for his 18th birthday


The gunman who killed 19 kids and two teachers at a Texas elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, was a local high school student with few if any friends who officials said legally purchased two assault rifles and scores of ammo last week for his 18th birthday.




www.cnn.com


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

RJ2019 said:


> "An ak something"
> 🤣🤣 Priceless.


Yeah, "AK something". I think we have seen this pattern before.
When someone wants a story to fit their wish, ie Remington, Kyle Rittenhouse, Nicholas Sandmann they won't wait for truth or fact. They just spittle whatever liberal sources google gives them.
This might be an example of a member's suggestion that the mods hold certain posts for review, in this case that member's own.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The NYTIMES is reporting that the husband of one of the school teachers shot and killed has died from a heart attack. I used the TMZ link.
Husband of Teacher Killed in TX Elementary School Shooting Dies of Heart Attack


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

painterswife said:


> Yes, teachers were not armed even though they could have been. You can't force teachers to be armed or so that can't be relied on. Even then teachers don't wear protective gear and that means they can be taken out easily before they even get a chance to get their gun.
> 
> Do you have evidence that doors were not locked and it was not a "real" security guard?


🥱


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## HomeCreek (Dec 30, 2021)

outgunned...pistol vs rifle

dead is dead. A rifle doesnt make you deader. At the distances involved he had no tactical advantage by having a rifle. The problem is lack of training and proficiency with the service weapon. You ever notice 90 percent of videos of you see the LEO is doing what we call "spray and pray"? Pulling the trigger as fast as they can in the general direction of the assailant. Thats how you have case after case of 15 to 30 rounds flung out of a pistol well within killing range and all they have to show for it is empty brass. 

Multiple pistols against 1 rifle IS the tactical advantage unless the rifle is well out of pistol range. The fact of the matter is there was a massive lack of testicular fortitude in that exchange coupled with a serious deficiency of training in live fire scenarios etc

but what do i know? 

signed
combat vet who has had those bullets zinging past my ears
combat vet that operated MOUT. Military Operations Urban Terrain
Range cadre Fort Benning Georgia 1985 to 1988
NRA certified instructor


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

HomeCreek said:


> outgunned...pistol vs rifle
> 
> dead is dead. A rifle doesnt make you deader. At the distances involved he had no tactical advantage by having a rifle. The problem is lack of training and proficiency with the service weapon. You ever notice 90 percent of videos of you see the LEO is doing what we call "spray and pray"? Pulling the trigger as fast as they can in the general direction of the assailant. Thats how you have case after case of 15 to 30 rounds flung out of a pistol well within killing range and all they have to show for it is empty brass.
> 
> ...


Velocity.

Velocity is a tactical advantage at any range. The phenomenon of hydrostatic shock dramatically increases at around 2100 fps. Below that velocity, the temporary wound cavity created by the hydraulic effect of a projectile is just that; temporary. Above that roughly 2100 fps, much of a temporary cavity becomes a permanent cavity, meaning that the flesh throughout the temporary wound cavity is torn or even liquified.

In a practical/tactical scenario, that greatly affects the ability of any one given round to incapacitate a combatant. If a pistol round at ~1200 fps, and a rifle round at ~2700 fps were to strike the same place, say 2-3” away from a combatant’s heart, the pistol round would effectively be a punch to the heart, while the rifle round would breach the heart, even though it didn’t strike it directly.

You’re right that dead is dead, and there is no deader than dead, but a high velocity round has a significantly greater chance of making you dead than a slower one, when all else is equal.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

What type of firearm killed the shooter???


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

TripleD said:


> What type of firearm killed the shooter???


I don’t know that that’s been divulged yet.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

TripleD said:


> What type of firearm killed the shooter???


This guy acted fast and on his own. My guess, and it is only a guess, the shooter was killed by the BP officer's side arm.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1529262487090110464


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

HomeCreek said:


> The problem is lack of training and proficiency with the service weapon.


Apparently so. I don't see how the local police will ever live this down.

I'm trying to wrap my head around cops listening to children getting shot but doing nothing.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Nevada said:


> I'm trying to wrap my head around cops listening to children getting shot but doing nothing.


I have read multiple articles of distraught parents being tazed, pepper sprayed and handcuffed while attempting to approach the school. There is no complete, fully accurate and dependable timeline yet, but there are some unnerving clues popping up.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> There is no complete, fully accurate and dependable timeline yet


The amount of time it's taking to provide a timeline makes it look like they're trying to somehow make themselves look better.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Apparently so. I don't see how the local police will ever live this down.
> 
> I'm trying to wrap my head around cops listening to children getting shot but doing nothing.


Or the school leaving a back door unlocked.



Nevada said:


> The amount of time it's taking to provide a timeline makes it look like they're trying to somehow make themselves look better.


I agree.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Apparently so. I don't see how the local police will ever live this down.
> 
> I'm trying to wrap my head around cops listening to children getting shot but doing nothing.


They did it in Parkland. They'll do it again.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Apparently so. I don't see how the local police will ever live this down.
> 
> *I'm trying to wrap my head around cops listening to children getting shot but doing nothing.*


A lot of it is fear. Cops have been demonized and put in prison for making snap decisions in the heat of the moment. Such things make them think twice before acting. They often arrive quickly but have to wait until they get authority to act from a supervisor, who then wants the okay from higher ups. The resulting time lag places victims at risk. The left brought us to this point. What would you be saying if cops had rushed in and accidentally killed a child while trying to shoot the killer? You know full well you would be wanting their scalps.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

poppy said:


> A lot of it is fear. Cops have been demonized and put in prison for making snap decisions in the heat of the moment. Such things make them think twice before acting. They often arrive quickly but have to wait until they get authority to act from a supervisor, who then wants the okay from higher ups. The resulting time lag places victims at risk. The left brought us to this point.


The only reasonable excuse I can conceive of is if they might have considered it a hostage situation rather than a rampage. But with all the gunfire being heard inside the school it's difficult to imagine that they realistically thought it was anything but a rampage. There is no way the shooter was going to engage in negotiation.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Not an easy watch.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Not an easy watch.


Yes. They did a good job of corralling parents, but stopping the gunman -- not so much.

Clearly, someone was in charge. The rank & file officers were undoubtedly following orders from someone. That's who we need to hear from.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Active shooter attacks in the US typically last 5 minutes or less.
There were at least 100 federal as well as local law enforcement on scene during the video above.
I have read two separate accounts stating several leos went inside the school to retrieve their own children while the scene was still active.
The sooner that concrete reporting becomes available, the sooner the guesswork,assumptions and keyboard quarterbacking can end.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Uvalde, Texas school shooting: Off-duty CBP agent saves students, daughter after 'help' text from teacher wife


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> The sooner that concrete reporting becomes available, the sooner the guesswork,assumptions and keyboard quarterbacking can end.


It's been too long for them to still be trying to get an idea of what happened. They're circling the wagons now. Don't expect straight answers.


----------



## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Nevada said:


> Years ago Justice Warren Burger (a conservative appointed by Nixon) gave an interview where the 2nd Amendment came up. He pointed out that the 2nd Amendment provided that a militia be well regulated, so it's difficult to imagine that the constitutional framers didn't intend for the general public to be regulated as well.


Well regulated doesn’t mean what you think it means in this context.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)




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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

homesteadforty said:


> I thought I had heard something similar... as in:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You took the words out of my mouth.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

painterswife said:


> They were out gunned. Pistols against an ak something and body armor. Likely had little training and resources for this type of situation. Other factors, like no breaching equipment and keys quickly available. A litany of problems that illustrate that arming employees of the schools is not the solution to school shootings.


🙄


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## link30240 (Aug 22, 2021)

GTX63 said:


> View attachment 110716


Unfortunately the people you are trying to educate that their argument is flawed, would rather stay ignorant. No different then their made up phrases "high capacity" and "Assault Rifle". They do it on purpose, and are disingenuous.

They have a agenda, and it is not for the betterment of the country.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

If the horse won't drink the water, I just leave the bucket.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> View attachment 110716


So it means that the militia is in working order?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Do you understand the definition of "militia" in its original form and intent, as it existed 150 years before the constitution as well as the bill of rights?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Do you understand the definition of "militia" in its original form and intent, as it existed 150 years before the constitution as well as the bill of rights?


What happened to the conservative belief that the constitution should be interpreted by a plain language reading?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I'm trying to help you.


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## KC Rock (Oct 28, 2021)

Nevada said:


> What happened to the conservative belief that the constitution should be interpreted by a plain language reading?


It didn't fit their agenda.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

You're trying to ignore inconvenient words in the 2nd Amendment.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Nevada said:


> You're trying to ignore inconvenient words in the 2nd Amendment.


You’re lack of reading comprehension is showing.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"Texas' Director of Public Safety broke down in tears on Friday as he admitted 19 cops stood outside the classroom where the gunman in Tuesday's shooting had his victims trapped and did nothing because they thought everyone inside was dead, despite ongoing 911 calls from inside begging for help. 

Col. Steven McCraw cried as he admitted it was the 'clearly the wrong decision'. 

Police still do not know whether the shooter's victims were killed before or after police arrived at the scene. "











Texas cops: Uvalde police made 'no effort' to enter shooting classroom


Col. Steven McCgraw cried as he admitted it was the 'clearly the wrong decision'. Police still do not know whether the shooter's victims were killed before or after police arrived at the scene.




www.dailymail.co.uk


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"From the benefit of hindsight, where I'm sitting now, of course it was not the right decision. It was the wrong decision. Period. There's no excuse for that," McCraw said.

The gunman entered the school at 11:33 a.m. Tuesday, but officers did not enter the classroom where the shooter was holed up and kill him until 12:50, McCraw said. During that time, multiple 911 calls from inside the classroom said there were students alive and asking for police to enter the classroom to come help them, McCraw said.









'Wrong decision': Police should have confronted Texas school gunman sooner, official says


The head of the Texas Department of Public Safety said law enforcement officers should have entered the classroom sooner in Uvalde, Texas.



www.usatoday.com


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

painterswife said:


> "Texas' Director of Public Safety broke down in tears on Friday as he admitted 19 cops stood outside the classroom where the gunman in Tuesday's shooting had his victims trapped and did nothing because they thought everyone inside was dead, despite ongoing 911 calls from inside begging for help.
> 
> Col. Steven McCraw cried as he admitted it was the 'clearly the wrong decision'.
> 
> ...


All the more reason for the people to be armed and responsible for their own well being.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

"Police officers had entered the school and were in a hallway within minutes of the gunman entering the school, and two officers received grazing wounds from the suspect in an initial encounter with him, McCraw said. But officers remained in the hallway for around an hour, McCraw said. Most of the shooting from the gunman, which included hundreds of rounds fired, occurred within minutes of him entering the school, McCraw said."


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

The official story seems to be that the commander at scent considered it to be a barricaded person situation, not an active shooter situation. I don't think they really believe that because of all the shots being fired, but that's the story they're trying out on the press now.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

And nobody tried breaking in a window to distract him or get to him that way?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Danaus29 said:


> And nobody tried breaking in a window to distract him or get to him that way?


McCraw's position was that the commander on scene considered it to be a barricaded subject situation. If that's true then the rank & file cops would have been under orders to not rush the shooter. I don't know if throwing the commander under the bus will be enough to defuse the terrible press.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

She smeared blood on herself and played dead: 11-year-old reveals chilling details of the massacre


An 11-year-old survivor of the Robb Elementary School massacre in Uvalde, Texas, feared the gunman would come back for her so she smeared herself in her friend's blood and played dead.




www.cnn.com





Miah said after shooting students in her class, the gunman went through a door into an adjoining classroom. She heard screams, and the sound of shots in that classroom. After the shots stopped, though, she says the shooter started playing loud music -- sad music, she said.


The girl and a friend managed to get her dead teacher's phone and call 911 for help. She said she told a dispatcher, "Please come ... we're in trouble."
Miah said she was scared the gunman would return to her classroom to kill her and a few other surviving friends. So, she dipped her hands in the blood of a classmate -- who lay next to her, already dead -- and then smeared the blood all over herself to play dead.
Miah said it felt like three hours that she lay there, covered in her classmate's blood, with her friends.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

painterswife said:


> She smeared blood on herself and played dead: 11-year-old reveals chilling details of the massacre
> 
> 
> An 11-year-old survivor of the Robb Elementary School massacre in Uvalde, Texas, feared the gunman would come back for her so she smeared herself in her friend's blood and played dead.
> ...


How horrible for this child. She was a smart little girl but what a horrible experience.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

But the cops seemed to do very well with unarmed parents pleading with police to do something to save their children. A father was tazed, a mother was pepper strayed, and another mother was taken away in handcuffs.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

All of the details have not been released. The information that has been released is being spun by the same media who made you afraid two years ago.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

GTX63 said:


> I'm trying to help you.


That's a useless endeavor with a number of people here.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Right or wrong if saw someone going in a school with what ever he was carrying I would have to go!!! It's mental health awareness month?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

TripleD said:


> Right or wrong if saw someone going in a school with what ever he was carrying I would have to go!!! It's mental health awareness month?


I wouldn't care for being locked-down in a building with an active shooter.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> All of the details have not been released. The information that has been released is being spun by the same media who made you afraid two years ago.


Something's wrong here. The details keep changing.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Something's wrong here. The details keep changing.


Kinda like a cnn story...eh?


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

Nevada said:


> Something's wrong here. The details keep changing.


Let's see... they're interviewing hundreds of people (all with at least slightly different stories)... many of those people will say things as fact even though it's really conjecture... many people will call in and claim to have information (falsely) because it makes them feel important... they're collecting probably dozens of surveillance videos and reviewing them frame by frame... they're doing the same with cell phone images and video from the public. They're collecting tens of thousands of bits of forensic evidence... logging, positioning (including laser measurements), photographing, shell casings, bullet holes, blood traces and more, unfortunately including bodies. They're reviewing thousands of radio transmissions, word for word, from all involved departments and agencies communications. There's more, need I list it?

The press, politicians and armchair LEO's are pressing them for information. If they give out priliminary information that is the least bit incorrect then:


Nevada said:


> Something's wrong here. The details keep changing.


If they don't give out information until it is solidly confirmed then they're accused of covering things up.

Use some common sense... this is not CSI or some two hour television drama.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

From what I've seen on the news this is not one of law enforcement's better moments. Someone should definitely be taken to task. Unfortunately it is going to involve a ton of taxpayer money.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)




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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

gilberte said:


> From what I've seen on the news this is not one of law enforcement's better moments...


Yeah... 'cause we all know that the news _always_ get things right and _never_ gives us misleading information... right???


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I wouldn't care for being locked-down in a building with an active shooter.


What if you were armed? I know i know you wouldn't dare be caught dead with a gun, but in this case, it just might save your life. Maybe....


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I don't think most people who want to be with an armed shooter; they wouldn't want their kids there either.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Any moment the term "He was known to Federal Law Enforcement" will appear on a chiron somewhere.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> I don't think most people who want to be with an armed shooter; they wouldn't want their kids there either.


I know that I wouldn't care for being on lockdown in a building with an active shooter.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

This kinda speaks for itself.

Officers were in the school within minutes. Two of the three officers that were "doing nothing" ,as some idjits here would like to believe, were wounded (as in shot). Within a couple of more minutes four other officers were inside. Almost all the shooting in the classrooms occured within the first 10 minutes.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I have heard several people today, two of them women, state that there is no way they would have been stopped from going into that school to try and get their child. I would agree with them. In that scenario, I am not sure they are even considering fear or death.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

There is the law, there is Department policy, there are standing orders, there is the heat of the moment, and there is what usually happens. Unfortunately all of that has very little to do with what actually happens when bullets are flying, and your ears are close enough to them to feel the draft.

I have never faced a active shooter at a school. I have responded to a call from a school that reported that they thought there was an active shooter. Myself and another unit rolled into the parking lot at the same time. We advised dispatch that we were on scene, that we were going inside and begin clearing the building. It turned out to be a crank call from a student.

The Sheriff had advised us that if you think there is an active shooter in the school, you clear the building. If there are shots being fired, you go to the sound of the shots and you put the shooter down. If there is one of you, or if there are ten of you. You go to the sound of the shooting, and you put the shooter down. You do not wait for backup.

Anyone found waiting in the parking lot for backup, would have been fired on the spot. The first place I was a Deputy Sheriff, was in Eastland County, Texas in 1979. So I know that there were Deputies at the scene who were ready and willing to close with the shooter. 

In this case it sounds like the first Officers on scene went to the sound of the shooting, and closed with the shooter. Two of them were wounded. Next, (I am guessing here) supervisors began to get involved, and things slowed down. Policy was consulted, calls were made, bucks were passed, and children were being shot. 

Evidently, Texas isn't what it once was.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> I don't think most people who want to be with an armed shooter; they wouldn't want their kids there either.


I don't have children. I would have to see how good they are!. I have a will...


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> She smeared blood on herself and played dead: 11-year-old reveals chilling details of the massacre
> 
> 
> An 11-year-old survivor of the Robb Elementary School massacre in Uvalde, Texas, feared the gunman would come back for her so she smeared herself in her friend's blood and played dead.
> ...


Good thinking on her part.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Death is not a deterrent to those expecting to go out in a blaze of so-called glory.


How do you know that? It sure seems to me the schools that have had mass killings had lax or no security.

They might be willing to die, but only after they have made their mark.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> How do you know that? It sure seems to me the schools that have had mass killings had lax or no security.
> 
> They might be willing to die, but only after they have made their mark.


Thus they premeditate. They concoct a plan, no matter how bizarre or deranged. Sometimes it takes a few weeks or months. 
They gather weapons, they write their manifesto, they isolate while hitting the social media circuit, they make their lists and they devise how they will make their mark.
At what point do they suspend their scheme because of a new law? What if it was difficult to get a gun?
Dreaming of a nation without 400 million firearms does what to the above scenario? If poor mental health and murderous intent driven by concentrated evil is becoming more prevalent, how does having tunnel vision on a single action that would be impossible to achieve and is debatable whether there would be any marked decrease in violence against unsecure, undefended buildings succeed?
One cannot legislate better behavior by disarming the public.
Removing the crack does not eliminate the addict.
Outlawing the Big Gulp does not cure diabetes.
Enforcing adult curfews will not stop rape.


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## link30240 (Aug 22, 2021)

If you have teachers and school administrators who you dont think could be trusted to carry firearms on school grounds. Then why the hll are you allowing them to be around your children, and especially teaching them what ever they want. Doesnt anyone else see the irony of this.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

painterswife said:


> Death is not a deterrent to those expecting to go out in a blaze of so-called glory.


If the fear of death doesn't deter them, then lets give them the real thing. I know for a fact, that a .45 between the eyes is a very good deterrent.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Evons hubby said:


> Hopefully the blame gets put on the shooter and not the gun!


Blame is all on the school for not locking the front door.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

link30240 said:


> If you have teachers and school administrators who you dont think could be trusted to carry firearms on school grounds. Then why the hll are you allowing them to be around your children, and especially teaching them what ever they want. Doesnt anyone else see the irony of this.


Well said


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

link30240 said:


> If you have teachers and school administrators who you dont think could be trusted to carry firearms on school grounds. Then why the hll are you allowing them to be around your children, and especially teaching them what ever they want. Doesnt anyone else see the irony of this.


False equivalence.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> False equivalence.


No. A juxtaposition


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Forcast said:


> Blame is all on the school for not locking the front door.


Sorry, I still believe it’s the shooters fault. Our children would not need to be behind locked doors and armed security guards were it not for a handful of idiots going nuts and shooting kids. Don’t blame the schools, nor the students, not even the police…. Blame the shooter!


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

I am certain there will be further clarity in the coming days. So far, this seems to be the most complete timeline and salient questions that I have read:

Substack article on Uvalde


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Hiro said:


> I am certain there will be further clarity in the coming days. So far, this seems to be the most complete timeline and salient questions that I have read:
> 
> Substack article on Uvalde


From you link - The kid had almost $10,000 in armament. 

But before we start the timeline, we must first ask an extremely important question: How did an 18 year old man, with no known employment, whom was living with his grandmother because of an addict mother, afford:​​-Two expensive firearms made by Daniel Defense ($2,000 each)​​-an EOTech optic ($400-$700)​​-1,657 rounds of .223 ammo ($800-1000 depending on how they were purchased)​​-body armor ($500-1000)​​-and over 60 magazines ($10-20 each, $600 to $1,200 total)​


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

painterswife said:


> link30240 said:
> 
> 
> > If you have teachers and school administrators who you dont think could be trusted to carry firearms on school grounds. Then why the hll are you allowing them to be around your children, and especially teaching them what ever they want. Doesnt anyone else see the irony of this.
> ...


Not at all. It doesn’t have to imply that every teacher is proficient enough to be effective with a firearm. It simply recognizes that anyone you would trust to be alone with your children should also be trustworthy to possess a deadly weapon around your children.

A gun is not uniquely deadly, and the belief that it is prevents us from having honest, well-informed discussions about what to do about these mass murders in schools.

More murders are committed using hands and feet than rifles, so it stands to reason that an adult teacher is more than capable of murdering a child in their care, even if they aren’t armed. If we trust a teacher to be alone with a child or children, then we should also trust them to be in possession of a weapon that affords them the ability to defend the children from someone trying to harm them.

No one should ever be forced to be armed, if they don’t want to be, but denying teachers the right to be armed is irresponsible, and undeniably contributes to higher death counts when these events occur.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

A good question I read. Facebook and other social media platforms have algorithms that can identify a conservative in a fraction of a second. Why can't they find young males who post about shooting up schools?


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

MoonRiver said:


> A good question I read. Facebook and other social media platforms have algorithms that can identify a conservative in a fraction of a second. Why can't they find young males who post about shooting up schools?


The conspiracy theory is that they can, and do. But not in the way or for the reason that you and I would.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Nevada said:


> What happened to the conservative belief that the constitution should be interpreted by a plain language reading?


Conservatives believe in original intent. In order to know what that is, one must know what words and phrases meant at the time of the writing. Many times the words meant the same as they do today, other times they meant something totally different, i.e. "well regulated". It is akin to the word "gay" It meant something different in 1922 than it does in 2022.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Nevada said:


> You're trying to ignore inconvenient words in the 2nd Amendment.


There is nothing inconvenient about it. A little research tells one that "well regulated" in the late 18th century meant well equipped and writings of the founders and authors of the 2nd tell us that the Militia included the whole of the population.


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## colourfastt (Nov 11, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Good guys with guns. Armed and trained teachers and administrators.


The "Wild West" all over again … or 21st century Somalia.


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## colourfastt (Nov 11, 2006)

Farmerga said:


> There is nothing inconvenient about it. A little research tells one that "well regulated" in the late 18th century meant well equipped and writings of the founders and authors of the 2nd tell us that the Militia included the whole of the population.


Which would be useful if one were living in the 18th century; however, WE are living in the 21st century.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Which century did mass shootings become such an issue?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

colourfastt said:


> The "Wild West" all over again … or 21st century Somalia.


Here is a little salt for your eggs this morning.

_"In the cowboy towns that epitomized the Wild West: “Abilene, Ellsworth, Wichita, Dodge City, and Caldwell, for the years from 1870 to 1885, there were only 45 total homicides. This equates to a rate of approximately 1 murder per 100,000 residents per year”."
The Wild West was Much Safer than New York at its Tamest_


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

colourfastt said:


> Which would be useful if one were living in the 18th century; however, WE are living in the 21st century.


What difference does that make?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

GTX63 said:


> Here is a little salt for your eggs this morning.
> 
> _"In the cowboy towns that epitomized the Wild West: “Abilene, Ellsworth, Wichita, Dodge City, and Caldwell, for the years from 1870 to 1885, there were only 45 total homicides. This equates to a rate of approximately 1 murder per 100,000 residents per year”."
> The Wild West was Much Safer than New York at its Tamest_


Oddly enough, the media of the day was the only reason the "wild west" had the bloody reputation it did.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

GTX63 said:


> Here is a little salt for your eggs this morning.
> 
> _"In the cowboy towns that epitomized the Wild West: “Abilene, Ellsworth, Wichita, Dodge City, and Caldwell, for the years from 1870 to 1885, there were only 45 total homicides. This equates to a rate of approximately 1 murder per 100,000 residents per year”."
> The Wild West was Much Safer than New York at its Tamest_


Gun laws were strict in the old west. It was common to require visitors to disarm upon arriving to town. That included Tombstone and Dodge City.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Nevada said:


> Gun laws were strict in the old west. It was common to require visitors to disarm upon arriving to town. That included Tombstone and Dodge City.


Yep that is why the shootout at the OK corral happened, because criminals didn't pay any attention to gun laws.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> What if you were armed? I know i know you wouldn't dare be caught dead with a gun, but in this case, it just might save your life. Maybe....


You missed my point completely. My point was that children were locked-down in a building with an active shooter. The only way they had to defend themselves was to get out, but were restrained for doing so.

The only way your reply could be relevant is if children were armed.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Nevada said:


> The only way your reply could be relevant is if children were armed.


Or the teacher.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Forcast said:


> Blame is all on the school for not locking the front door.


No it isn't. The shooter was absolutely 100% responsible for his actions. The school door, back door not the front, was only the opportunity for him to get inside the building. If he had never had firepower he would not have been able to shoot so many people. 

But if he was determined to kill a bunch of children, there were other means at his disposal. With the money he had spent on firearms he could have done some real damage if he had tried to replicate the Murrah incident.


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## HomeCreek (Dec 30, 2021)

In case someone has not mentioned it because I lost track. The worst killing of school children in the history of this country was about 100 yrs ago. There were no ar 15 back then so the guy just blew up the kids. Crazy is gonna crazy. Outlaw everything that goes bang when you pull a trigger and theyll just find a new way. 
The 1927 Bombing That Remains America’s Deadliest School Massacre | History| Smithsonian Magazine 
Category:School bombings in the United States - Wikipedia


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Nevada said:


> Gun laws were strict in the old west. It was common to require visitors to disarm upon arriving to town. That included Tombstone and Dodge City.


Come work on the street I told Dad I needed a break from today. I said that I was done there for the next two weeks!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> You missed my point completely. My point was that children were locked-down in a building with an active shooter. The only way they had to defend themselves was to get out, but were restrained for doing so.
> 
> The only way your reply could be relevant is if children were armed.


You completely missed the point of my response. I was responding to YOUR comment about YOU being armed. Go back and reread your own post.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

HomeCreek said:


> In case someone has not mentioned it because I lost track. The worst killing of school children in the history of this country was about 100 yrs ago. There were no ar 15 back then so the guy just blew up the kids. Crazy is gonna crazy. Outlaw everything that goes bang when you pull a trigger and theyll just find a new way.
> The 1927 Bombing That Remains America’s Deadliest School Massacre | History| Smithsonian Magazine
> Category:School bombings in the United States - Wikipedia



Don't be silly. You know that can't happen. Twenty years ago we gave up constitutional rights and treasure on the promise that GWB would make us safe from terrorism. Neither our money nor our rights have been returned so I have to believe that those safety measures are still in place.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)




----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)




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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Don't be silly. You know that can't happen. Twenty years ago we gave up constitutional rights and treasure on the promise that GWB would make us safe from terrorism. Neither our money nor our rights have been returned so I have to believe that those safety measures are still in place.


Never forget that Obama violated our Constitutional rights with his many anti American laws and practices...Fast and Furious ring a bell?
Why didn't Obama fix it then? Biden?
TDS...
Crickets....


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

HDRider said:


> From you link - The kid had almost $10,000 in armament.
> 
> But before we start the timeline, we must first ask an extremely important question: How did an 18 year old man, with no known employment, whom was living with his grandmother because of an addict mother, afford:​​-Two expensive firearms made by Daniel Defense ($2,000 each)​​-an EOTech optic ($400-$700)​​-1,657 rounds of .223 ammo ($800-1000 depending on how they were purchased)​​-body armor ($500-1000)​​-and over 60 magazines ($10-20 each, $600 to $1,200 total)​



Good point. But we can't blame him, it's those evil Ar-15, AK somethings that seduced him. Forced him to purchase them, and all of that evil high powered ammo, designed only to inflict pain and suffering on a battlefield. They forced him to do it. Or he was bullied, couldn't cope with all of the hate and bullying, and was forced to drop out of school. He is the real victim here. Bullied, misunderstood, poor, no opportunities, forced to live with his grandmother, his grandfather a ex convict, his parents not in the picture, all of the usual excuses.

And let's not forget the police, they are as just as much to blame as those evil guns. They just drive around town watching everybody, just looking for trouble. We have all seen them, bothering everybody. Harassing law abiding citizens, singling out the oppressed brown people. Inciting violence by their very presence. This poor innocent lad, never had a chance. Being born into the most racist, hateful, white dominated country in the Universe. Not just the world, the entire Universe.

Just ask our leaders, the President himself. Or our Vice President, that moral compass for modern women everywhere. They will set you straight, just ask them.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

HDRider said:


> From you link - The kid had almost $10,000 in armament.
> 
> But before we start the timeline, we must first ask an extremely important question: How did an 18 year old man, with no known employment, whom was living with his grandmother because of an addict mother, afford:​​


From what I read he was working at a Wendy's. They don't pay that much and he wasn't working full time.

I want to know where he got that much ammo. You can't get that much any place around here.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

GTX63 said:


> View attachment 110759
> 
> 
> View attachment 110760



He says the documents are jarring, what's so jarring about it? They did what they were trained to do. And the Uvalde Police weren't even in command of this incident. The Texas Department of Public Safety took over command within the first few minutes. They ordered everyone to pull back and wait for the SWAT Team. And they were just doing what they were trained to do. Modern police training is more about optics than dealing with criminals and their actions.

The modern police officer is expected to be more social worker than law enforcer. Everybody loves the fat smiling, donut eating Barney Fife. Until they need a steely eyed gunfighter, to charge through a locked door and shoot the gun out of the hands of the poor misunderstood teenaged mass murder.

The selection, training, and leadership of modern police departments is designed to weed out the very thing that is needed most when things go pear shaped. Team work makes the dream work, is what they are told. Be a team player, wait for your backup. Don't pull a John Wayne, and try to do it yourself.

And when that call comes in, an active shooter at the school. They do the very thing they are trained to do. They fall back, secure the perimeter, wait for the SWAT Team. They follow the orders of the Incident Commander. Then every armchair warrior, back in my day, I wouldda done it different expert screams at the top of their lungs. Those lazy cops are cowards, they just let those kids die. What are we paying them for?

The same experts who call them trigger happy, jackbooted thugs, and bullies in uniform. The public demands that Police be sensitive, impartial, dispensers of law and justice. Then they expect Barney Fife to become Matt Dillion in the blink of an eye. And call him a coward when he doesn't.

The average city Police Officer or Deputy Sheriff never receives any real tragical training at all. They are taught how to defuse the situation, and how to be culturally sensitive. They are taught to be less white, more inclusive, more understanding of the poor oppressed marginalized victim of systematic oppression. They are taught to color within the lines, and are chastised or fired when they don't. Nobody ever tells them that there may come a time when you need to kick in the door and shoot some SOB.

Nobody wants to see the steely eyed gunfighter, until they need him. Until some psychopath slips in the back door and starts slaughtering children on an industrial scale. Then the taxpayers, the good upstanding citizens, the beer drinking, party on Saturday night, go to church on Sunday hypocrites want someone to blame.

Nobody wants to look in the mirror. This teenager lived in their town, went to their school, walked their streets, and nobody bothered to notice that he was crazy as a loon. Not a teacher, preacher, priest, concerned citizen, or cop on the beat. They were all too busy being politically correct, culturally sensitive, and inclusive.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

HDRider said:


> From you link - The kid had almost $10,000 in armament.
> 
> But before we start the timeline, we must first ask an extremely important question: How did an 18 year old man, with no known employment, whom was living with his grandmother because of an addict mother, afford:​​-Two expensive firearms made by Daniel Defense ($2,000 each)​​-an EOTech optic ($400-$700)​​-1,657 rounds of .223 ammo ($800-1000 depending on how they were purchased)​​-body armor ($500-1000)​​-and over 60 magazines ($10-20 each, $600 to $1,200 total)​


That seems like a lot of money for a minimum wage job.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

wr said:


> That seems like a lot of money for a minimum wage job.


I don't know his whole situation, but if he's living with mom or grandma and his food/shelter/clothing are being covered by one of them, his paycheck is just play money. It wouldn't be too hard to save up $6,000 dollars if you have even a minimum wage job and don't have any real bills.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Mish said:


> I don't know his whole situation, but if he's living with mom or grandma and his food/shelter/clothing are being covered by one of them, his paycheck is just play money. It wouldn't be too hard to save up $6,000 dollars if you have even a minimum wage job and don't have any real bills.


I don’t know his situation either but it seems like a lot of money, which makes me wonder how long he planned this and how many people missed hints dropped along the way.


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## jcapefl (8 mo ago)

po boy said:


> I hear he killed his grandmother also.


he shot her surgery done so far shes alive


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Nevada said:


> Gun laws were strict in the old west. It was common to require visitors to disarm upon arriving to town. That included Tombstone and Dodge City.


And many of the locals had access to firearms and were perfectly willing to use them. The average cowhand was well aware of boundaries and what was allowed.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Danaus29 said:


> From what I read he was working at a Wendy's. They don't pay that much and he wasn't working full time.
> 
> I want to know where he got that much ammo. You can't get that much any place around here.


He did not have that much actually. And it’s easily available. 






__





Access to this page has been denied.






www.academy.com







https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/remington-umc-rifle-ammunition




Boxes of 20 are in supply and easy to get. As it should be. 


As pointed out the gun, ammo were not the problem. It’s the shooter and to some degree the incredible lack of security at the school. Same as usual.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

muleskinner2 said:


> He says the documents are jarring, what's so jarring about it? They did what they were trained to do. And the Uvalde Police weren't even in command of this incident. The Texas Department of Public Safety took over command within the first few minutes. They ordered everyone to pull back and wait for the SWAT Team. And they were just doing what they were trained to do. Modern police training is more about optics than dealing with criminals and their actions.
> 
> The modern police officer is expected to be more social worker than law enforcer. Everybody loves the fat smiling, donut eating Barney Fife. Until they need a steely eyed gunfighter, to charge through a locked door and shoot the gun out of the hands of the poor misunderstood teenaged mass murder.
> 
> ...


That deserves being printed nation wide in the papers and read out loud on the tv stations.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Apparently he had been planning it for a while.









Before massacre, Uvalde gunman frequently threatened teen girls online


Young people who met the alleged gunman online said he had threatened to kidnap, rape or kill. But they said their reports were ignored.




www.10tv.com


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Redlands Okie said:


> That deserves being printed nation wide in the papers and read out loud on the tv stations.


Thanks but no, we don't want them to notice. Can't have disinformation spread around. Might hurt someone's feelings. Doesn't fit the approved narrative.


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## Hartley (Aug 29, 2019)

muleskinner2 said:


> Good point. But we can't blame him, it's those evil Ar-15, AK somethings that seduced him. Forced him to purchase them, and all of that evil high powered ammo, designed only to inflict pain and suffering on a battlefield. They forced him to do it. Or he was bullied, couldn't cope with all of the hate and bullying, and was forced to drop out of school. He is the real victim here. Bullied, misunderstood, poor, no opportunities, forced to live with his grandmother, his grandfather a ex convict, his parents not in the picture, all of the usual excuses.
> 
> And let's not forget the police, they are as just as much to blame as those evil guns. They just drive around town watching everybody, just looking for trouble. We have all seen them, bothering everybody. Harassing law abiding citizens, singling out the oppressed brown people. Inciting violence by their very presence. This poor innocent lad, never had a chance. Being born into the most racist, hateful, white dominated country in the Universe. Not just the world, the entire Universe.
> 
> Just ask our leaders, the President himself. Or our Vice President, that moral compass for modern women everywhere. They will set you straight, just ask them.


Sarcasm seldom advances discourse.


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## dr doright (Sep 15, 2011)

A police officer in my Sunday School class yesterday told us he was trained to face a threat like the Uvalde shooter alone if necessary. Another member of the class, a retired Highway Patrol officer said those cops were cowards for not going in immediately. And, why is no one asking how he got the money to buy those expensive weapons and ammo? The anti 2nd Amendment crowd spends millions trying to take our gun rights. Would they give a mentally ill kid a few thousand to create an opportunity to reach their agenda?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

From what I was reading, he had been planning this for quite a while. He was working a part time job and apparently was saving money from that to buy the items.


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## Kelly Craig (Oct 10, 2021)

and "they" would never bring them to our door. . . .



Nevada said:


> Don't be silly. You know that can't happen. Twenty years ago we gave up constitutional rights and treasure on the promise that GWB would make us safe from terrorism. Neither our money nor our rights have been returned so I have to believe that those safety measures are still in place.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

This is Jacob Albarado, the off duty Border Patrol Agent, who left the barber's chair with the owner's shotgun and has been named as the man who shot the school shooter.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

This how the sick use a tragedy to drive a wedge

_University of Pennsylvania professor Anthea Butler is at the center of another controversy after going on Twitter to suggest that the delay in rescuing the children in the Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas was due to racism. She asked if the police “didn’t give a damn” about the children because they were “predominantly brown kids.” While she later deleted the Tweet, Professor Butler has a long history of offensive racial statements. _​


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

HDRider said:


> This how the sick use a tragedy to drive a wedge
> 
> _University of Pennsylvania professor Anthea Butler is at the center of another controversy after going on Twitter to suggest that the delay in rescuing the children in the Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas was due to racism. She asked if the police “didn’t give a damn” about the children because they were “predominantly brown kids.” While she later deleted the Tweet, Professor Butler has a long history of offensive racial statements. _​


"People" like that just need punched in the face.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Repeatedly


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> Repeatedly


Words of wisdom!!

Eta: Word....of wisdom!


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Danaus29 said:


> Repeatedly


Now Danaus, I thought you meant you believed in turning your own cheek, not your enemies, lol.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

GTX63 said:


> has been named as the man who shot the school shooter.


He did go in and help rescue a lot of kids, but the reports that he killed the shooter are false.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yep, and I think the best we can expect for now is the law enforcement story, the parents who were there with them. The truth as a whole or as much as can be confirmed is still yet to arrive.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

GTX63 said:


> Now Danaus, I thought you meant you believed in turning your own cheek, not your enemies, lol.


I never said I believe it. I said it's what is in the bible. That is one of the things I have trouble wrapping my brain around. Too many slaps must have knocked something loose. I can't say I love my enemies either.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I know and I get it.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

painterswife said:


> 14 children, one teacher dead.


and the cops just stood around. ***!!!???


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

JeffreyD said:


> Nope, he can't suspend the Constitution. He should use his executive orders to install armed guards at all schools, and put the death penalty back in place.
> The gun didn't kill anyone, a crazy kid who felt invincible did. Cars kill more kids than guns do...those are not Constitutionally protected.
> Punishment works....



And in court there should be one question, "Did he use a gun while committing a murder?" If yes, death, no mitigating circumstances. 

I am for our gun rights, I believe that enforcing current laws would go a long way towards stopping this.

Why did the cops stand around for over an hour while he killed children?
Why did the cops stand around for over an hour while he killed children?
Why did the cops stand around for over an hour while he killed children?


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Colourfastt


Get over yourself


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> And in court there should be one question, "Did he use a gun while committing a murder?" If yes, death, no mitigating circumstances.
> 
> I am for our gun rights, I believe that enforcing current laws would go a long way towards stopping this.
> 
> ...


Ostensibly, the children were shot in the first 10 minutes, during which time two of the initial officers were wounded while engaging the gunman. After that, the shooting stopped, a LEO commander arrived and decided it was now a hostage situation. Three shots were later fired, by the gunman, into the door during LEO's initial attempts to make entry.

If the guman were firing for "over an hour" there almost positively would have been no survivors in that classroom.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

homesteadforty said:


> Ostensibly, the children were shot in the first 10 minutes, during which time two of the initial officers were wounded while engaging the gunman. After that, the shooting stopped, a LEO commander arrived and decided it was now a hostage situation. Three shots were later fired, by the gunman, into the door during LEO's initial attempts to make entry.
> 
> If the guman were firing for "over an hour" there almost positively would have been no survivors in that classroom.


I have read reports where children were hiding and pretending to be dead and were calling 911 almost right up to the time the cops entered and shot him. Also that some of the children might have been saved if they received medical attention earlier.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> I have read reports where children were hiding and pretending to be dead and were calling 911 almost right up to the time the cops entered and shot him.


Some even smeared themselves with blood so it looked more like they'd been shot... I fear those poor babies will never get over it.



> Also that some of the children might have been saved if they received medical attention earlier.


Unfortunately, that is likely true.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> and the cops just stood around. ***!!!???


I can't help but wonder what those cops were thinking and what was said amongst themselves during that time.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Hard to say. For various reasons, the Uvalde PD is refusing to cooperate with the State Investigators.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

GTX63 said:


> Hard to say. For various reasons, the Uvalde PD is refusing to cooperate with the State Investigators.


Minor correction... it's the Uvalde Independent School District police chief that is not cooperating. Strange that they are a totally seperate and independent agency from Uvale Police Department. The ISD police chief is actually the one that held up the officers.

'Course that may actually be a clue... to many cooks in the kitchen???


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yes, and it may be somewhat due to statements made that seem to show bias against him, or that he is looking at a liability issue and attempting to stay ahead of the game. That is too bad on both counts.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

homesteadforty said:


> Minor correction... it's the Uvalde Independent School District police chief that is not cooperating. Strange that they are a totally seperate and independent agency from Uvale Police Department. The ISD police chief is actually the one that held up the officers.
> 
> 'Course that may actually be a clue... to many cooks in the kitchen???


I don't see how that school police chief's job is going to survive his.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Nevada said:


> I don't see how that school police chief's job is going to survive his.


Not sure how the school police chief is going to survive this.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Nevada said:


> I can't help but wonder what those cops were thinking and what was said amongst themselves during that time.


Probably: "Fck this, I'm going in. Who's with me?"


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I can't help but wonder what those cops were thinking and what was said amongst themselves during that time.


The price of a dozen crispy cream donuts.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

11 Teenagers in America die each day as a result of texting on their phone while they are driving.
What is the legal age to own a phone?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> 11 Teenagers in America die each day as a result of texting on their phone while they are driving.
> What is the legal age to own a phone?


I wish I could find out how many teens are murdered by guns each day


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

HDRider said:


> I wish I could find out how many teens are murdered by guns each day


7.7 not including suicides. Page 29


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

Nevada said:


> I can't help but wonder what those cops were thinking and what was said amongst themselves during that time.



If I could not go in there, I would be sobbing. and VERY angry.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

po boy said:


> 7.7 not including suicides. Page 29
> View attachment 110908



How much is this gang violence?

Personally, I do not believe gang violence is the same category as these other shootings and only serves to confuse the issue.
Gang bangers do not register their weapons and will have them after FJB takes ours.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> And in court there should be one question, "Did he use a gun while committing a murder?" If yes, death, no mitigating circumstances.
> 
> I am for our gun rights, I believe that enforcing current laws would go a long way towards stopping this.
> 
> ...


Why the special treatment if a firearm was used?


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## Vjk (Apr 28, 2020)

As Clint Eastwood said: "we've become a Nation of pussies"


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Why is he there?


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

HDRider said:


> Why is he there?


Don't know... don't care! I've heard his name but don't know who he is... why would I care about his opinion either way??? _(that is said in a factual tone... not a smart a** one)_


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

He was raised in that town.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

He is an Hollywood actor, hasn't had any good gigs for a few years. This will get him some attention.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

painterswife said:


> He was raised in that town.


So... does his name/fame make his opinion any more valid than others? _(still not being a smart a**)_


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> He was raised in that town.


Google says he was raised in Longview which is about 7 hours away.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

homesteadforty said:


> So... does his name/fame make his opinion any more valid than others? _(still not being a smart a**)_


If my name carries weight in some capacity of the public's eye, and I can genuinely express compassion, yes, some will view his opinion as more valid. I have enjoyed several of his movies.
Once a message such as his might become political and used to press an ideology, then it becomes wrong.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> Google says he was raised in Longview which is about 7 hours away.


He moved to Longview when he was 10 or 11.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

GTX63 said:


> If my name carries weight in some capacity of the public's eye, and I can genuinely express compassion, yes, some will view his opinion as more valid. I have enjoyed several of his movies...


I tend to give deference very, very sparingly. In this case (as in most), being an actor, knowing his name or liking his movies does not give me reason to give him said deference.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

homesteadforty said:


> So... does his name/fame make his opinion any more valid than others? _(still not being a smart a**)_


He is a player with the full court press on taking guns


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534661074724827139


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

HDRider said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534661074724827139


Anybody know the read on it passing the Senate? I would think it's just a show vote in the House and will be filibustered in the Senate.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

homesteadforty said:


> So... does his name/fame make his opinion any more valid than others? _(still not being a smart a**)_


No.

But he seriously floated the idea of running for governor of Texas I believe. 

As a moderate independent if memory serves. And seemed to have at least some significant support.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

homesteadforty said:


> Minor correction... it's the Uvalde Independent School District police chief that is not cooperating. Strange that they are a totally seperate and independent agency from Uvale Police Department. The ISD police chief is actually the one that held up the officers.
> 
> 'Course that may actually be a clue... to many cooks in the kitchen???


A school cop is a state cop. A local cop is a local cop. 

State cops have jurisdiction over local cops in Texas. 

That explains a lot here.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

gilberte said:


> Probably: "Fck this, I'm going in. Who's with me?"


Yep, just fire my ass after I'm done. I'm going in. 

Never made it past Lt. In the fire dept because of that. Don't care either. I didn't sign up for the stripes.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

homesteadforty said:


> Don't know... don't care! I've heard his name but don't know who he is... why would I care about his opinion either way??? _(that is said in a factual tone... not a smart a** one)_


He is a wannabe politician for governor of Texas. 

Need I say more?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

homesteadforty said:


> Anybody know the read on it passing the Senate? I would think it's just a show vote in the House and will be filibustered in the Senate.


Says Here are the House Republicans who broke with the party on guns

Among the provisions are raising the minimum age to purchase a semi-automatic weapon from 18 to 21 and banning civilians from using high-capacity magazines.

The legislation is doomed in the Senate because of widespread GOP opposition.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

If an armed citizenry was meant to be a check against a tyrannical and intrusive government it only makes sense those that want more government in our lives would want a disarmed populous.


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## homesteadforty (Dec 4, 2007)

HDRider said:


> If an armed citizenry was meant to be a check against a tyrannical and intrusive government it only makes sense those that want more government in our lives would want a disarmed populous.


No rights are absolute  .

Sorry, thought I'd help things along with a preemptive post... either that or I got hit with an Imperious Curse


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## HomeCreek (Dec 30, 2021)

"high capacity"

Who gets to define this? And what would it be based on? To some 10 is high. Might be 3 to another. I can fire fast enough with a single shot to eliminate 2 targets a minute with little effort from a single shot. And if you use a single shot sawed off 12 gauge well I can shoot 10 people or so a trigger pull.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Think what you will - As so often the case, generalities are misleading

Essentially, law enforcement behaved like armed bureaucrats. Large numbers of cops showed up. They hid behind walls to protect themselves. They milled around, conferred, and secured the perimeter, as the shooter emptied his weapon on helpless kids. They certainly wrote reports. As one headline noted, "Police delays may have deprived Texas schoolchildren of lifesaving care, experts say." That's a safe bet.​







Uvalde Shows Once Again That Cops Are Just Armed Bureaucrats


Americans seem shocked by how police reacted while 18-year-old Salvador Ramos was shooting up Robb Elementary School, where he gunned down 19 children and two teachers.




reason.com


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

HomeCreek said:


> "high capacity"
> 
> Who gets to define this?


Unfortunately, dummies elected by stupid people. None of whom know jack about firearms.

_"Well, you know, my shotgun will do better for you than your AR-15, because you want to keep someone away from your house, just fire the shotgun through the door." - Joe Biden

" Some of these bullets, as you saw, have an incendiary device on the tip of it, which is a heat seeking device. So, you don't shoot deer with a bullet that size. If you do you could cook it at the same time." - Patricia Eddington

"This is a ghost gun. This right here has the ability with a .30-caliber clip to disperse with 30 bullets within half a second. Thirty magazine clip in half a second." - Kevin de Leon

"The Second Amendment only protects the people who want all the guns they can have. The rest of us, we've got no Second Amendment. What are we supposed to do?" - Louise Slaughter

"What's the efficacy of banning these magazine clips? I will tell you... these are ammunition, they're bullets. So the people who have those now, they're going to shoot them, so if you ban them in the future, the number of these high capacity magazines is going to decrease dramatically over time because the bullets will have been shot and there won't be any more available." - Diana DeGette

"We have federal regulations and state laws that prohibit hunting ducks with more than three rounds. And yet it's legal to hunt humans with 15-round, 30-round, even 150-round magazines." - Dianne Feinstein

"...it is easier for a 12- or 13-year-old to purchase a gun, and cheaper, than it is for them to get a book." - Barack Obama_


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

More than a DOZEN of 36 trapped in Uvalde awaited rescue for an HOUR


More than a dozen of the 33 children and three teachers trapped in Uvalde school during the massacre were alive and were waiting for rescue for 77 minutes as police failed to find the right door key.




www.dailymail.co.uk





"More than a dozen of the 33 children and three teachers trapped in the Texas school during the massacre were alive and awaiting rescue for an hour as cops scrambled for a key to unlock a classroom door, a review has found.

The terrified victims were stuck inside the building for 77 minutes as bungling officers tried to figure out how to get past a 'steel jamb' entrance to the room Salvador Ramos, 18, was in, the study of video footage showed.

Pete Arredondo, the embattled chief of Uvalde school police, was among the first officers to enter Robb Elementary during the original siege.

But when he and his officers were pushed back - with two injured in the gunfire - he did not let them enter again for another 40 minutes as they waited for better equipment to arrive."


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

kinderfeld said:


> Unfortunately, dummies elected by stupid people. None of whom know jack about firearms.
> 
> _"Well, you know, my shotgun will do better for you than your AR-15, because you want to keep someone away from your house, just fire the shotgun through the door." - Joe Biden
> 
> ...


*Obama, May 30:* Well, I’ve said this before. The most difficult day that I’ve had was the day that there was a shooting in a school, where 20 small children were shot, as well as some teachers, and you know, my daughters were only a little bit older than these young children that had been shot and I had to go and comfort the parents. And some of you may be aware our gun laws in the United States don’t make much sense. Anybody can buy any weapon, any time whether or not (applause) you know, without much, if any, regulation. *They can buy it over the internet. They can buy machine guns.*


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Uvalde school police chief ditched his radio during shooting


Pete Arredondo was in charge of the tiny school police force in the Uvalde Consolidated School district when gunman Salvador Ramos opened fire in Robb Elementary School on May 24.




www.dailymail.co.uk





On Thursday The New York Times revealed a review of video footage which found Arredondo quickly became aware there were still more than a dozen survivors inside the classrooms shooter Ramos had entered.

It is not yet clear just how many more lives would have been saved if the Uvalde police had stormed in when the gunman first began shooting.

The Times also obtained surveillance footage from inside the school, which showed Ramos walking through the empty hallways.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

painterswife said:


> Uvalde school police chief ditched his radio during shooting
> 
> 
> Pete Arredondo was in charge of the tiny school police force in the Uvalde Consolidated School district when gunman Salvador Ramos opened fire in Robb Elementary School on May 24.
> ...


I heard a report that 11 kids and one teacher may have survived if they had not waited.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

painterswife said:


> More than a DOZEN of 36 trapped in Uvalde awaited rescue for an HOUR
> 
> 
> More than a dozen of the 33 children and three teachers trapped in Uvalde school during the massacre were alive and were waiting for rescue for 77 minutes as police failed to find the right door key.
> ...


I know you were just linking the article but 'steel jamb' is really a thing in nearly every school and university. The writer should never have acted like they don't exist.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

HomeCreek said:


> "high capacity"
> 
> Who gets to define this? And what would it be based on? To some 10 is high. Might be 3 to another. I can fire fast enough with a single shot to eliminate 2 targets a minute with little effort from a single shot. And if you use a single shot sawed off 12 gauge well I can shoot 10 people or so a trigger pull.


When young and a real active hunter 2 quail out of the same covey jump while using a single shot was common. Good old days.
Goes to show the silliness of some of these attempts at magazine limits.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

painterswife said:


> The terrified victims were stuck inside the building for 77 minutes as bungling officers tried to figure out how to get past a 'steel jamb' entrance to the room Salvador Ramos, 18, was in, the study of video footage showed


Quoting you only because of this line from the article.

This was an old school building. Surely there were windows in the rooms. Why does no one ever think of going after a perp through a window? Cops have tossed tear gas or smoke bombs in through windows for years. I don't understand how they can say there was no way to get into a room that had windows on exterior walls.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Danaus29 said:


> Quoting you only because of this line from the article.
> 
> This was an old school building. Surely there were windows in the rooms. Why does no one ever think of going after a perp through a window? Cops have tossed tear gas or smoke bombs in through windows for years. I don't understand how they can say there was no way to get into a room that had windows on exterior walls.


@painterswife does not respond to queries of that nature. I am not convinced she is actually a person behind the keyboard most of the time.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I wasn't asking her. I quoted her only because she quoted that passage from the article. It was a rhetorical question anyway because those children are still dead and the person in charge still would never think of going through a window.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

I don't know, but during day time it's usually easier to see out a window than it is to see in. It's probably not a great tactical position. But I really don't know. Maybe it should have been considered.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

At the very least it would have served as a distraction and possibly caused him to use some of the ammo on something besides helpless children.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

mreynolds said:


> State cops have jurisdiction over local cops in Texas.


No, they don't. What they have is more resources. Any Chief of Police out ranks any state cop, within his city. They defer to the State Police because, they want to pass the buck. And they know that sometime in the next fiscal year they will be asking for money. 

When I was a Deputy I have had State and Federal Cops try to pull rank on me, Highway Patrol, Border Patrol and Forest Service Rangers. They found out in a hurry that nobody out ranks a Sheriff, or one of his Deputy's.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

ryanthomas said:


> I don't know, but during day time it's usually easier to see out a window than it is to see in. It's probably not a great tactical position. But I really don't know. Maybe it should have been considered.


Why not? 

Set up snipers. Have someone crawl up below the window. They knock out the glass with an ax off a fire truck and the snipers have a clear shot.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> No, they don't. What they have is more resources. Any Chief of Police out ranks any state cop, within his city. They defer to the State Police because, they want to pass the buck. And they know that sometime in the next fiscal year they will be asking for money.
> 
> When I was a Deputy I have had State and Federal Cops try to pull rank on me, Highway Patrol, Border Patrol and Forest Service Rangers. They found out in a hurry that nobody out ranks a Sheriff, or one of his Deputy's.


Outranks was probably a bad choice of words. They do have a larger area to contain than local police. Therefore, they can take care of the problem outside of local police jurisdiction. 

Besides, local police are paid by local taxes. Why would they worry about what the staties are telling them as far as funding goes. It is a simple local vote for more funding here in Texas counties. No politician in his right mind would cut state funding for one or two counties because he was mad at a few officers in those counties.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Mish said:


> I don't know his whole situation, but if he's living with mom or grandma and his food/shelter/clothing are being covered by one of them, his paycheck is just play money. It wouldn't be too hard to save up $6,000 dollars if you have even a minimum wage job and don't have any real bills.


How do you explain the $70,000 truck, the $500 gaming console, the $1000 in body armor, the $1000 in optics, the expensive women's clothing. Last time I worked in fast food, I couldn't afford all that. 

Follow the money. Heck, it might even lead you to police officers paid to do, or not do things. It's all political theater, as is almost everything we encounter in this day and age. It is designed to erode our second amendment, and cause mistrust of local law enforcement agencies. The solution is a disarmed populace and a national police force.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

barnbilder said:


> How do you explain the $70,000 truck, the $500 gaming console, the $1000 in body armor, the $1000 in optics, the expensive women's clothing. Last time I worked in fast food, I couldn't afford all that.
> 
> Follow the money. Heck, it might even lead you to police officers paid to do, or not do things. It's all political theater, as is almost everything we encounter in this day and age. It is designed to erode our second amendment, and cause mistrust of local law enforcement agencies. The solution is a disarmed populace and a national police force.


That is incredible.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Truck was not his.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Truck was not his.


You have a copy of the title?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

barnbilder said:


> You have a copy of the title?


She never answers.

Who's truck does she think it was? And how did he get use of the truck?


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

HDRider said:


> She never answers.
> 
> Who's truck does she think it was? And how did he get use of the truck?


Maybe his parents bought it with one of the bad checks they were prone to writing. Classmates of his were arrested for coming up with a plan to do exactly what he did, four years ago. That puts the FBI in his school, most likely in his head, and probably helping provide weapons, some of which were exactly the same as the guy that the FBI got to shoot at people in Las Vegas.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I read several articles that indicated the truck belonged to the grandparents. One of the neighbours mentioned that he had some difficulty getting the truck started.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

HDRider said:


> She never answers.
> 
> Who's truck does she think it was? And how did he get use of the truck?


I have a life. I was doing chores and getting groceries. Sorry I don't sit here waiting to answer every question asked. Get a life.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> I have a life. I was doing chores and getting groceries. Sorry I don't sit here waiting to answer every question asked. Get a life.


Oh, how I long to be you. Only if...


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> I have a life. I was doing chores and getting groceries. Sorry I don't sit here waiting to answer every question asked. Get a life.


Do you even realize the conflict in that statement?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> I have a life. I was doing chores and getting groceries. Sorry I don't sit here waiting to answer every question asked. Get a life.


True to form, you never answer questions.
Have the day you deserve...lol


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> True to form, you never answer questions.
> Have the day you deserve...lol


Why do I need to answer the question when WR already did? Don't you believe her?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Why do I need to answer the question when WR already did? Don't you believe her?


Just stating a fact.
Because its you who doesn't answer questions. You even said so. Ever....


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> Just stating a fact.
> Because its you who doesn't answer questions. You even said so. Ever....


Well, that is an outright lie. I answer questions all the time.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Well, that is an outright lie. I answer questions all the time.


That's an out and out lie right there.
You never answer my questions and very rarely do you answer questions from anyone else. You even said so....did you not?


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