# Old wives' tales re: our equine friends



## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

I just acquired a free 7 month old filly. Right now she's snow white, and she has two blue eyes. People around here strongly believe that horses with two blue eyes are loony... that's why they gave her to me for free! (Ok, I'll play, cause she's precious... LOL) Anyhoot, it got me thinking about all the old sayings about horses.

What kinds of things have y'all have heard about certain horses, and which ones you think have some truth to them?

I'll start by saying that I've also heard blue-eyed horses are more susceptible to blindness... which leads me to believe that, at some time, someone's blue-eyed horse started going blind... leading to a little loony behavior... hence the rumor that all blue-eyed horses are loony. What say you?

I've also heard that roman-nosed horses are stubborn. True?


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

I don't know about roman-nosed horses being stubborn, but I have a snub-nosed horse that certainly is!

One of the things I have noticed about domesticated animals in general is that they act pretty much like you expect them too.

If you expect them to be crazy and unmanageable, they will generally oblige you.

If you expect them to be sweet and well-mannered, they tend to do just that.


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## Harmony_Meadows (Nov 4, 2007)

The chestnut mare syndrome!!


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

Appaloosas....

Oh, wait.... Of the two appaloosas I have worked with, one was a complete idiot, and the other requires a battle to learn anything new... Maybe there is something to their reputations...


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Harmony_Meadows said:


> The chestnut mare syndrome!!


Do people really believe that one? I think it's more a "mare" thing, regardless of color! LOL I also heard that it applies to Palominos. Hope not. My new youngin may become a palomino... her momma is one.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

saanengirl said:


> Appaloosas....
> 
> Oh, wait.... Of the two appaloosas I have worked with, one was a complete idiot, and the other requires a battle to learn anything new... Maybe there is something to their reputations...


I wonder if that one's regional. Here in northcentral AR, the general consensus is that appies are idiots, so you don't see many around. But, growing up in AZ, they were plentiful. LOTS of color! Especially around the rodeo circuits. Wonder why such different opinions between different geo locations?


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## jill.costello (Aug 18, 2004)

"Red horses are crazy" This one is actually true <hee hee hee hee> But, I like crazy, so it works!


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I saw a great bumper sticker once: "Hell hath no fury like a chestnut mare". I wish I'd gotten it.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Huh...as a teen, I had a lovely Leopard Appy....

My mother HATED that horse. Mainly because we could NOT find a gate or latch that he couldn't somehow get through in order to get into her rose garden and eat all of her roses. That horse LOVED roses.

And to this day, my mother will swear to you that if you gave that horse a bobby pin, he'd pick a Master Lock.

I never had any problems teaching him something new...and often he'd learn lots of new things all on his own. Of course, HIS new things learned were never anything I *wanted* him to learn. I swear to you, I NEVER wanted him to figure out how to get into the garage, and after that, how to get the dryer open so that he could make a game of strewing clean laundry, one piece at a time, through the pasture.

I didn't know the one about the chestnut mare....but the worst tempered mare I ever came across, especially when she was having her time of the months, was a warmblood gray.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Ha, here is a pic of me relaxing with one of my favorite horses of all time.
An Appaloosa
Mare
Chestnut ... based









I've ridden as many temperamental, crazed geldings as I have mares. By which I don't mean temperamental, crazed mares - I mean mares total. You just run into a lot more geldings when riding other people's horses.
And since geldings don't come with the ready built, PMS excuse, it has to be because his cousin was an Appy, or a TB, or maybe the owner he had 7 years ago was a nut. It's never, "Well, I feed him too much grain and only ride him on weekends. I'm not a very good rider and I yank on the reins a lot." It's always "You know what they say about <insert myth here>"

Not that there aren't differences between mares and geldings and stallions. Because there are. But not the huge ones most people think.

Oh, reminds me of one that's still going around. Women can't handle stallions. The people still peddling that one also believed that all studs are inherently vicious and were well on their way to ruining a 3 yo colt. They honestly thought it should take 2 men to bring him to the pasture! I said "pbbbth How can you even call him a stud if his balls haven't dropped yet??" and took him over. He began to learn to behave very well - though DH still goes a little pale if you mention the time I cleaned his ears.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

One of the best horses I ever had was an Appy gelding. He was an old fashioned sort, small, calm, easy going and very gentle. At four he was quite reliable, just a great little horse.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

EasyDay said:


> I just acquired a free 7 month old filly. Right now she's snow white, and she has two blue eyes. People around here strongly believe that horses with two blue eyes are loony... that's why they gave her to me for free!
> 
> I'll start by saying that I've also heard blue-eyed horses are more susceptible to blindness...


First ... I think some of the "old wives' tales" have some grain of truth ... not all, but some. People of my grandfather's generation, who lived and worked horseback used to say that buckskins were always 'tough' ... that you couldn't wear them out and that pinto horses were 'thin skinned'. I had an old vet tell me once that he had seen a lot of buckskin horses that had a great deal of endurance and that a lot of the ones he'd seen (this was in the days before registered horses) probably threw back to some mustang breeding and were likely to be hardy. He also said that pink-skinned horses were often more susceptible to cinch sores and saddle galls, things like that. So a bit of truth to those old stories.

As far as your white/blue eyed filly. What you have is a double dilute. A long time ago they used to call them 'albino' but they arent. What they do have is two cream dilute genes (one produces buckskin and palomino). They used to be considered more or less defective ... and in this case the pink skin can occasionally lead to sunburning if they are out 24/7 during summer. The blue eyes are no more susceptible to problems than any other color, however, but there is still a certain amount of prejudice against them.

However, once the equine color genetics people figured out that they were actually 'double dilutes' they have gotten very popular in the horse breeding world. Because they carry two copies of the cream dilute gene the will always pass on one copy of that gene to any foal they produce ... thus you have one of the rare 'guarantees' in the horse breeding business. Regardless of what color the other parent is, you will ALWAYS get palomino, buckskin or smoky black ... with a chance of double dilute (cremello/perlino) if the other parent is also a dilute.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

CaliannG said:


> Huh...as a teen, I had a lovely Leopard Appy....
> 
> My mother HATED that horse. Mainly because we could NOT find a gate or latch that he couldn't somehow get through in order to get into her rose garden and eat all of her roses. That horse LOVED roses.
> 
> ...


I love hearing funny horse stories. :bouncy:
I had a VERY lip-talented shetland pony when I was 8, who'd open the back door and walk thru the LR into the kitchen. My mom would freak every time!


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Otter said:


> And since geldings don't come with the ready built, PMS excuse, it has to be because his cousin was an Appy, or a TB, or maybe the owner he had 7 years ago was a nut. It's never, "Well, I feed him too much grain and only ride him on weekends. I'm not a very good rider and I yank on the reins a lot." It's always "You know what they say about <insert myth here>"


Ha! So true! The owner of a "crazy" horse never thinks he/she might be the problem!

Breed stereotypes drive me nuts! And the color ones make even less sense. Another one is "he must have been abused, that's why he bites me when I feed, or runs away from me when I try to catch him". Suuure.

I've worked with tens of thousands of horses, and find none of the rumors to be true. Each horse is an individual, and you can't blame temperament on breed or color. More likely than not, a "crazy" horse was made that way by some idiot owner whether it be coddling/lack of discipline, poorly fitted saddles, horrible riding, or just plain ignorance. I think truly abused horses are rare, and even so - horses don't wallow in their past like humans, they can "get over" an abusive past quite quickly.

Another old wives tale I was told as a kid is never feed a horse watermelon rinds. One of my clients looked it up (after she had been feeding the rinds to her horses for years), and discovered the warning had gone by the wayside, just like the "don't let a hot horse drink cold water".


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

SFM in KY said:


> First ... I think some of the "old wives' tales" have some grain of truth ... not all, but some. People of my grandfather's generation, who lived and worked horseback used to say that buckskins were always 'tough' ... that you couldn't wear them out and that pinto horses were 'thin skinned'. I had an old vet tell me once that he had seen a lot of buckskin horses that had a great deal of endurance and that a lot of the ones he'd seen (this was in the days before registered horses) probably threw back to some mustang breeding and were likely to be hardy. He also said that pink-skinned horses were often more susceptible to cinch sores and saddle galls, things like that. So a bit of truth to those old stories.
> 
> As far as your white/blue eyed filly. What you have is a double dilute. A long time ago they used to call them 'albino' but they arent. What they do have is two cream dilute genes (one produces buckskin and palomino). They used to be considered more or less defective ... and in this case the pink skin can occasionally lead to sunburning if they are out 24/7 during summer. The blue eyes are no more susceptible to problems than any other color, however, but there is still a certain amount of prejudice against them.
> 
> However, once the equine color genetics people figured out that they were actually 'double dilutes' they have gotten very popular in the horse breeding world. Because they carry two copies of the cream dilute gene the will always pass on one copy of that gene to any foal they produce ... thus you have one of the rare 'guarantees' in the horse breeding business. Regardless of what color the other parent is, you will ALWAYS get palomino, buckskin or smoky black ... with a chance of double dilute (cremello/perlino) if the other parent is also a dilute.


Thanks, SFM. You explained that well. I only just began looking into the color genetics since this filly came into my life. Some sites just caused more confusion in my little brain.

No one has ever touched this filly, so am anxious to get her into round pen and get closer to her. I need a good look to determine skin color... then, maybe I'll have a better idea of what she might be when she grows up. I kind of hope she's a true white... except for the sunburn thing.
I have a black/white paint gelding. This past summer was so hot and dry, even with me slathering stuff on him, his shoulders burned. (He has plenty of shade, but not the sense to get IN it! So, that sits foremost in my mind with this white baby. Am already looking into different fly/sun sheets for her for the upcoming summer to keep her from frying.

Hadn't heard that pink skin is more susceptible to saddle sores, etc. Skin is skin, right? Are they really more susceptible, or are the rubs/sores just more noticeable?

I know that true white w/blue eyes are seen as somewhat rare. Recently read about that huge horse sale they have in India, and a white w/blue eyes sold to royalty for $650,000 strictly because of color. Nothing special about the horse. The old cowboys around here just don't look at it that way.

I expect us to get along fine, but if something comes up that would make me want to sell her.... I'm shipping her to India!


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## Texasdirtdigger (Jan 17, 2010)

We had a rose eating, Peach tree robbing,laundry snatching pony, too!! She'd pull stuff off the clothesline all the time. Mama would chase her with a broom...( she never hit her.....just some waving and swearin'). She ( the horse) kicked me hard one time, when I would not give her the juicy Peach, I was eating.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

EasyDay said:


> Hadn't heard that pink skin is more susceptible to saddle sores, etc. Skin is skin, right? Are they really more susceptible, or are the rubs/sores just more noticeable?
> 
> I know that true white w/blue eyes are seen as somewhat rare.


I don't know for sure about being more susceptible to rubs/sores. I do know that pink skin can be more sensitive to some things, sunlight especially. We had a weed in Montana that was common but potentiated sensitivity to sunlight and had no trouble with our dark-legged horses but ones with white stockings (the skin is pink under white hair) were often affected by it. And several of the horses I've had with big blaze faces (again, pink skin under white) ended up with sunburn on noses in the summer ... had a couple of mares that I would slather with sunscreen.

A 'true' white in equine color genetics is rare ... you see very few of them. The ones I've read about recently have occurred in the Thoroughbred world, but they have dark eyes ... not blue. For some reason the blue eyes are linked to the double dilutes, those horses that have two cream dilute genes. White horses are something totally different and I've not kept up on that genetic color information.

The other "true white" horse is what they call an extreme expression of sabino. Sabino is the genetic pattern that produces a white pattern (one of the pinto genes, or gene complexes). Sabino is most often recognized when you have a colored horse with four high white stockings, big blaze face and often a belly 'splash'. I've seen a few where the belly splash continued as a series of white splashes upward through the colored body coat and have seen photos of a very few sabinos with what they call "extreme expression" that are actually all white, though often the tips of the ears will be colored. Many sabino horses, including the all-white sabinos, have blue or partially blue eyes. 

The double dilutes will be a pale cream to white and the skin will definitely be pink. I'd be surprised if she was actually an all-white sabino ... as I say, I've only seen pictures of them and I only know of them in the Tennessee Walker breed, though they may occur in any of the breeds that carry sabino patterns.

I'd be very surprised if your filly is anything other than a double dilute ... of course the "proof" of that would be to breed her to a chestnut stallion when she's old enough. If you get a palomino ... she's a double dilute!

Well ... and there is a color test as well. Several places offer it ... U C Davis has one I think for $25 ... you pull mane hair and send it in. They have made so many advances now in equine color genetics, they can test for almost all of the colors.


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

I have seen one all white sabino. She was a Missouri Fox Trotter who was the result of breeding sire to daughter. Unfortunately she was extremely sickle-hocked and had an ugly head...


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

saanengirl said:


> I have seen one all white sabino. She was a Missouri Fox Trotter who was the result of breeding sire to daughter. Unfortunately she was extremely sickle-hocked and had an ugly head...


I have to admit I was absolutely amazed when I first came to KY and saw all of the Tennessee Walkers ... I'd probably not seen more than 2 or 3 before I moved here. 

I have to admit I was appalled ... I find them, well, bluntly ... ugly. There are a few that I've found at least 'attractive' but to my eye ... educated with Arabs, Quarter Horses, Connemara and Welsh ponies and the more refined warmbloods ... the majority of them are not just 'plain' ... but ugly.

Big heads, light rear ends and sickle hocks. The biggest thing for me to get past though, is that they are 'loose' in the hocks ... the hocks actually appear to wobble as they move. It took me a long time to adjust to the fact that that is how they move ... it doesn't indicate any weakness in the hocks, though I have no clue why it doesn't ... but since I've been here I've seen many older TWH that were certainly still sound.

I don't see as many Fox Trotters here and the ones I have seen have been a different type from the TWH completely ...


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## neal68 (May 29, 2005)

it's all in how a horse is trained. you need to think like the horse and understand what he/she is trying to tell you and 99% of the time you will have the perfect horse. 
no heavy hand is needed for that breeds resentment for you as a trainer/partner.
as for the other 1% there is usually no hope for them due to severe inbreeding.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I have a palomino with one blue eye. I wonder if...perhaps...his bits of oddness are related to a slight sight defect in that eye? He is so easy going, practically steers himself, then perhaps one trail ride out of 5, he does a nutty spook over nothing, and ALWAYS on that side. I also noted that sometimes when I go to pet him, he flinches from that eye. My vet noted that he has a very tiny blind spot in that eye, so that something would have to come at him "just right" to hit it.

As for appys...geesh...don't get me started. However....sanest horse ever on the trails. Lazy, yes, but sane.

And Arabs are...well, perhaps bi-polar comes to mind. I have heard it said often, you either love them, or hate them.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

If some one has mentioned it, I didnt read it as I skimmed over but many of these "white" horses are more prone to skin cancer or tumors so keep a good feel of her, use sun screen on her liberally, or do your pasture a favor and only turn her out at night. Like other species being white with blue eyes deafness can occur as well but rarer in horses than say boxer dogs.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

SFM in KY said:


> I'd be very surprised if your filly is anything other than a double dilute ... of course the "proof" of that would be to breed her to a chestnut stallion when she's old enough. If you get a palomino ... she's a double dilute!
> 
> I figure she'll get some color eventually. Momma is a palomino, daddy is a tri-colored paint.
> 
> Well ... and there is a color test as well. Several places offer it ... U C Davis has one I think for $25 ... you pull mane hair and send it in. They have made so many advances now in equine color genetics, they can test for almost all of the colors.


Cool on the test. I'd do it for $25, just out of curiosity... and in case I ever decide to breed her. (Way more knowledge needed on my part before I'd decide to do that.)

Spoke to a woman who has an "almost black" mare. Said the mare was born white, then seemed to go through "every color of the rainbow" before finally darkening to the color she is now. Which reminded me that I did hear many years back that black horses are born white. As the years went by, I saw "black" foals, so never really knew how that worked. Never had the need (or desire... too busy) to study color genetics, so appreciate you who ARE knowledgeable about it. My curiosity is now piqued!

I don't really care what color she ends up. As they say, ya can't ride color!
A palomino raised me as a kid, so they hold a special place within me. 
It will be fun to see what she becomes.

So, SFM, if she does have areas of dark skin, but keeps her white hair, she may also turn out to be a gray, right?


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Melanoma in grey horses is very well documented but there does not seem to be an equal correlation in the double dilutes (not sure about the genetically "white" horses).

The Connemara breed has a very high number of buckskin ponies and you see double dilutes occasionally in the breed, although breeders try to not produce them because the registry discriminates against them. Even though purebred, they will only register mares and geldings ... they will not register a double dilute stallion ... the prejudice going back to the old wives' tales of the blue eyed horses being "defective", having eyesight problems, etc.

A number of years ago several breeders got together and tried very hard to overcome this inequality in the breed registry ... cited any number of studies which basically proved that the double dilutes had no more problems with eyesight than brown eyed ponies ... and one of the things addressed was the melanoma issue. In fact that was one of the "selling" points ... that percentage wise there were many more grays documented with melanoma than double dilutes.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Wow... good info, thanks!

Maybe I should have started a separate thread for the color stuff. 
No need to, now. LOL

But I'm definitely gonna read more about the double dilutes!
Any preferred websites (thorough but "for the layman") that you refer to, SFM?


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

This is an easy site to navigate and understand. Deals with just the cream dilutes but also covers some of the old wives' tales about them as well. http://www.doubledilute.com


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

EasyDay said:


> Spoke to a woman who has an "almost black" mare. Said the mare was born white, then seemed to go through "every color of the rainbow" before finally darkening to the color she is now. Which reminded me that I did hear many years back that black horses are born white. As the years went by, I saw "black" foals, so never really knew how that worked. Never had the need (or desire... too busy) to study color genetics, so appreciate you who ARE knowledgeable about it. My curiosity is now piqued!


I never heard that. And I've seen black foals (the foal coat wont be true black) grow into shiny black horses. A year or 2 ago someone posted pictures of his very pretty filly from newborn, she's so dark do you think she'll be black or dark bay to a shiny, velvety black yearling running through her pasture.

BUT _gray_ horses start out dark, get lighter with each shed and end up white. Hence the riddle; "What color was George Washington's white horse?" "Gray"
If you want to Google Lipizzans you'll see herds of "white" mares with their dark babies at their sides. Every once in a while one wont gray out and the Spanish Riding School always keeps a "colored" stallion in exhibition.
And often a "fleabitten gray" is one that starts out chestnut. Chestnuts gray out very prettily in my opinion. 
But I've never seen a white foal get darker save for Appys. They are generally born with a much brighter pattern then they'll have as adults. But they don't go from all white to all black.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

SFM in KY said:


> This is an easy site to navigate and understand. Deals with just the cream dilutes but also covers some of the old wives' tales about them as well. http://www.doubledilute.com


While waiting for your reply, I found the same site.
Really easy to understand. Just what I needed, for now.
One of the women who started this site was one of several who convinced the AQHA to accept cremellos/perlinos. 

The neighbor (owner) told me that the filly is from two reg'd qtr horses, but didn't think she would be accepted unless she developed some color. 
Apparently, she can be registered now that the rules have changed.
That's a good thing.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Otter said:


> I never heard that. And I've seen black foals (the foal coat wont be true black) grow into shiny black horses.


From what I've seen, foals that are born "blue black" when they are foaled are the ones that will turn gray as they get older (presuming, of course, that they have at least one gray parent).

I have never seen a foal that was black as an adult born looking a true black. All of the ones I've seen, and I've bred a number of blacks, were foaled what horse people term "kind of a mousey color" ... that's about as close as they can get. It is a not-black, not-gray, not-tan color and when they start shedding the foal coat, it comes in black.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Otter said:


> I never heard that. And I've seen black foals (the foal coat wont be true black) grow into shiny black horses. A year or 2 ago someone posted pictures of his very pretty filly from newborn, she's so dark do you think she'll be black or dark bay to a shiny, velvety black yearling running through her pasture.
> 
> BUT _gray_ horses start out dark, get lighter with each shed and end up white. Hence the riddle; "What color was George Washington's white horse?" "Gray"
> If you want to Google Lipizzans you'll see herds of "white" mares with their dark babies at their sides. Every once in a while one wont gray out and the Spanish Riding School always keeps a "colored" stallion in exhibition.
> ...


After further reading on my own, I think the womans "white foal turned black" may be a "smokey black". Wish I could have seen her pics of the color progression. Am wondering if her opinion of "white" wasn't really white, you know? Maybe "light", but not "white". The horse has two white sox and blaze. (The lady's old... maybe she's confusing two horses! LOL Who knows? I won't slight her for being old!)

Also, the way I understand it, (am I wrong on this?) some grays are really white hair over dark skin. Single dilute, right?

:stars:


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

EasyDay said:


> So, SFM, if she does have areas of dark skin, but keeps her white hair, she may also turn out to be a gray, right?


No, she is not gray. I don't know of any youngster that is that gray that young. Grays are born black, will often start to show white hairs around the eyes and face when they shed their foal coat, but they are never born light gray or white, they go from dark to more gray every year. 

I would really look into getting a pedigree on the filly .. registered name and # o sire and dam ... and find out if the owner/breeder will provide you with a breeders certificate so you can register this filly. If both parents are registered, she should be registerable, though it will be more expensive to do it in 2011 as a yearling, but I think it would be worthwhile. That way her bloodlines will be documented and a foal would be more valuable as well, if you ever did decide you wanted to breed her.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

SFM in KY said:


> No, she is not gray. I don't know of any youngster that is that gray that young. Grays are born black, will often start to show white hairs around the eyes and face when they shed their foal coat, but they are never born light gray or white, they go from dark to more gray every year.
> 
> *Oh, okay. I get it. So she won't be a gray... hands down.
> As I mentioned, I haven't gotten my hands on her yet. She'll be brought over this weekend (Merry Christmas to me!). Once I get her in the round pen and join up with her, I'll be able to get a better handle on her skintone. Her blue eyes are not the icy blue I see in some paints... they're a bright blue. She's in a large (100 acres) pasture. Can't get closer than about 20 ft to her right now. And I have to admit, I was looking at her overall healthy appearance more than I was her color.*
> ...


Will I have to have a breeders certificate? Can I get her registered with just copies of her parents' registrations? The reason I ask is, I dont know if the guy is a registered breeder. He has several herds of essentially "wild" horses that he doesn't mess with, though he does keep track of who breeds whom. The foals are usually taken by his son and/or adult grandson, who train them and sell them. The way I understand it, they don't register them until they're ready to sell them. :shrug:

ETA: Without pulling out my gelding's reg. papers, does it have the breeders name on it? i don't remember.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== Appaloosas....

Oh, wait.... Of the two appaloosas I have worked with, one was a complete idiot, and the other requires a battle to learn anything new... Maybe there is something to their reputations... ===


One of my many broodmares was an Appy. A fabulous mare who produced some fabulous mules -- with the help of my Mammoth jack.

I rode an Appy mule for years that was not from my breeding. Some would say I got the worst of two worlds, yet many wanted to buy him. At only 13.2 hands, few horses could keep up with that mule. I would not hesitate to get another if I were in a buying mood.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

EasyDay said:


> Will I have to have a breeders certificate? Can I get her registered with just copies of her parents' registrations? The reason I ask is, I dont know if the guy is a registered breeder. He has several herds of essentially "wild" horses that he doesn't mess with, though he does keep track of who breeds whom. The foals are usually taken by his son and/or adult grandson, who train them and sell them. The way I understand it, they don't register them until they're ready to sell them. :shrug:


It's been years since I've had any dealings with the AQHA and I just don't know what they do require now.

You don't need to be a "registered" breeder, don't even have to be a member of AQHA to have registered horses and register any foals that are produced by them. The bottom line on registering foals is that they must have two AQHA registered parents.

I'm not sure of the requirements now for registration, as I said years since I dealt with AQHA. Used to be you had to have a breeders certificate signed by the person owning the mare and stallion at the the time of breeding plus a transfer of ownership by the owner of the foal (at the time it was foaled) to the person requesting registration.

I think your first step, kind of reading between the lines here, might be to ask the owners if they could give you a copy of the registration papers of her sire and dam. With those names and numbers, and the owner's name, you can call AQHA and find out what you need to do to get her registered.

Do, for sure, get something in writing that transfers ownership of her from the current owner to you, preferably one that also states her sire's and dam's names and registration numbers.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== Oh, reminds me of one that's still going around. Women can't handle stallions. The people still peddling that one also believed that all studs are inherently vicious ===


I've ridden with a lot of Latino families. They only keep stallions and they're ridden from the youngest member of the family to the oldest.

One little girl was voted queen of her saddle club for the year due to the way she handled her stallion. The little girl was 5 years old.

I rode my Mammoth jack before, during, and after his breeding years. Many times when someone came to pick up their mare, they'd want to go riding in the mountains. They'd saddle their mare, I'd saddle the Mammoth and off we'd ride. And he had bred the mare that morning.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== And Arabs are...well, perhaps bi-polar comes to mind. I have heard it said often, you either love them, or hate them. ===


My very first mount a hundred years ago, was a pure Arab. I didn't go looking for a particular breed, I went looking for a 10 - 15 year old gelding that had done a lot of what I wanted to do....trail riding. 

Folks in the saddle club would say the horse didn't know he was an Arab; he thought he was a quarter horse! He was very quiet and a great ride.

What I found was there are two types of Arabs -- the show Arab and the backyard Arab. 

The show Arab is fed a hot menu, has stuff waved all over him to keep him hyper.

The backyard Arab is not grained or fed alfalfa and is a calm, sensible horse.

Just what I've seen through the years.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

Grey horses can also be born bay or chestnut, which is then their "base" color. Grey isn't a dilute gene, I believe it is considered a modifier, because any horse who carries the grey gene will eventually become grey. I have a client who had a palomino foal (that would be a single dilute of the chestnut gene), who turned grey. Grey covers all other colors except the whites on pintos (which would then make them a grey pinto).


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## rabbitpatch (Jan 14, 2008)

Malinda, you are correct. Gray is a modifier and all it takes is 1 copy of the gray gene to make a horse gray. Horses "gray out" at different rates though. Sometimes they go gray when they shed their first foal coat, and sometimes it takes 2 or 3 sheds to really see the gray start to come out. I've heard of horses taking several years to go all gray.

Roan is another modifier, although I can't remember if it takes one or two copies of the roan gene to make a roan color. Like gray, roan sometimes comes out in stages so a foal won't necessarily be roan at birth but you should see some serious roaning by the time they are a yearling.

Creme is a dilute. On a black horse, Cr/cr makes smoky black while Cr/Cr makes smoky cream. On a bay, Cr/cr makes buckskin and Cr/Cr makes perlino. On a chestnut, Cr/cr makes palomino and Cr/Cr makes cremelo. Of course there are other things than can further modify the coat, such as roan mentioned above, and grulla.

Cream by itself does not affect eye color. Cremelos and perlinos can and often do have brown eyes. Usually splash or sabino are what causes blue eyes. Sabino is one of those genes that people still don't know much about and there is a theory that there are actually 2 different sabino genes - Sa1 and Sa2. I can't remember which version has the genetic test available but I think it's Sa1. Sabino can cause anywhere from just a few white hairs here and there, to full blown "Maximum" sabino, which can cause a horse's coat color to be nearly solid white(although you will usually find a few hairs of some color somewhere on the horse).

And then there is appy spotting, which is a whole different ball game in regards to how the spots show up. One version of which is called "few spot" which is usually a horse with so much white that they have just a few spots of color. 

And then there is the new gene they just discovered a year or two ago. The "White" gene. Researchers actually didn't think it existed for a long time, but finally confirmed that it does indeed exist, not terribly long ago. I don't know a whole lot about the White gene so I won't even attempt to explain how it works. It is NOT the same thing as "Lethal White" however - that is caused by 2 copies of the Overo gene.

In the case of your filly, my money would be on sabino causing her blue eyes, and possibly even her white coat. It's possible she could have creme also, but with that much white only a genetic test would tell you for sure.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

SFM in KY said:


> It's been years since I've had any dealings with the AQHA and I just don't know what they do require now.
> 
> You don't need to be a "registered" breeder, don't even have to be a member of AQHA to have registered horses and register any foals that are produced by them. The bottom line on registering foals is that they must have two AQHA registered parents.
> 
> ...


Yes, I plan to ask him for copies of the dam and sires papers. 
I'll get with AQHA to find out what else is required.
I definitely want some form of transfer of ownership. Without telling a long story, the owner is probably one of the least like people on the mountain... and he doesn't like more than a few of us, me being one. He's known for starting trouble. Since he's GIVING her to me, I want proof so he can't come back later and try to lay claim to her. We've always gotten along fine, but who knows if/when that may change!


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

rabbitpatch said:


> Roan is another modifier, although I can't remember if it takes one or two copies of the roan gene to make a roan color.
> 
> Cream by itself does not affect eye color. Cremelos and perlinos can and often do have brown eyes. Usually splash or sabino are what causes blue eyes.
> 
> my money would be on sabino causing her blue eyes, and possibly even her white coat.


Roan is a modifier like gray and like gray, one roan gene produces a roan. I don't know the current status, but a number of years ago, it was thought that there were no "homozygous" roans ... that two copies of the roan gene produces a non-viable embryo which is aborted within the first few months.

Cream by itself (one cream gene) does not affect eye color ... it is the double cream gene that produces the blue eyes. I have never seen a double cream dilute that did not have blue eyes. I have seen very pale palominos and buckskins, and double dilutes that had one cream gene and one dun gene, for instance, and they do not have blue eyes. But any horse with two cream genes will have blue eyes.

I have not seen any AQHA horses with the extreme sabino which produces all white horses. AQHA will not register horses with excessive white markings ... they have relaxed the rules somewhat, so they are, now registering horses that have white higher on the legs and behind the eye, which they did not do before. However, I believe that any belly splash or white on the body is still not registerable. I have seen a few APHA horses with just colored ears and sometimes a colored "cap" but I would be very surprised if there has ever been an extreme sabino AQHA horse that was completely white.

If the sire and dam of this colt are registered AQHA, which is what the OP was told, I think the odds are that they are buckskin/palomino rather than both being extreme sabino.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Rogo said:


> What I found was there are two types of Arabs -- the show Arab and the backyard Arab.
> 
> The show Arab is fed a hot menu, has stuff waved all over him to keep him hyper.
> 
> ...


My DH and I have this argument *constantly*. HE thinks thoroughbreds are just THE thing. He can wax eloquent about them for hours.

I spent several years on the tracks, so my thoughts are: "Why would you want a *thoroughbred*? They have nothing but AIR between their ears! They are flighty! They are prima donnas! Do you HATE me? Why would you want to force me to deal with a *thoroughbred*?"

He just shakes his head at me and says, "The first thing you do with any track horse is to turn it loose in a pasture for 6 months to cool it off."

Okay, yeah sure. I know that INTELLECTUALLY....but my *guts* have several years of flighty, nut-case, histrionic, borderline personality disorder race horses to dwell upon.

And, of course, I will sit there and DROOL over Arabs and he will say, "Do you HATE me? Why would you want an ARAB? They're crazy! They're maniacal! They are smart and nuts, like mad, crazed scientists! WHY would you want to bring an ARAB here?"

Of course, HE has only seen, ridden or dealt with show Arabs...pretty things. I am sitting here thinking of my neighbor's LOVELY herd of Arabs that I used to ride all the time as a child, even the stallion, and responding, "What do you MEAN Arabs are crazy? You're crazy! Arabs are darling, smart, sweet tempered, terrific horses! It's those thoroughbreds of yours that are crazy!"


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Rogo said:


> === And Arabs are...well, perhaps bi-polar comes to mind. I have heard it said often, you either love them, or hate them. ===
> 
> 
> My very first mount a hundred years ago, was a pure Arab. I didn't go looking for a particular breed, I went looking for a 10 - 15 year old gelding that had done a lot of what I wanted to do....trail riding.
> ...


I've only been around a couple of Arabs, each seemed pretty high strung. But, then, so was the owner... so maybe they encouraged each other.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

CaliannG said:


> My DH and I have this argument *constantly*. HE thinks thoroughbreds are just THE thing. He can wax eloquent about them for hours.
> 
> I spent several years on the tracks, so my thoughts are: "Why would you want a *thoroughbred*? They have nothing but AIR between their ears! They are flighty! They are prima donnas! Do you HATE me? Why would you want to force me to deal with a *thoroughbred*?"
> 
> ...


The Thoroughbred is directly descended from Arabs, and I read somewhere that in the 1700s and early 1800s you could hardly tell one from the other because TBs had such a high percentage of Arab blood at the time.

Personality wise, I don't really see much of a difference. They both are sensitive and smart horses who won't put up with some idiot riding them like, well, an idiot! I live in QH land here in Wisconsin, where some poor, good-natured, little 14h 2yo QH will put up with a 300lb man bouncing around on his back while getting jerked in the mouth with a tom thumb "training" bit. Can you see a TB or an Arabian putting up with riding like that?? Nope. And THAT is why Arabs and TBs get the reputation of being crazy!

Of my three Warmbloods, two are half-Arab (one of those is a Trakehner - run for the hills!!  ), one half-TB, and I also have a full Arab mare and a full TB mare, all are great horses and the Trakehner especially so


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I've been fortunate in my Arabs. Have had several over the years and while I've had a couple of mares that were a bit "hot" I've never had one I've considered crazy or even close to unmanageable.

My first was a 3 year old stallion that was just broke to lead. Brought him in, boarded him at an indoor arena (this is mid-winter in Montana) and in a month both I and my 12 year old daughter was riding him. You could lead him down the row of stalls with the other boarding horses with a nylon halter and a rope lead and he would never even look at another horse.

Later, when he was a finished horse, I often hauled him (saddled) loose in a stock trailer with my daughter's mare. You would never know he was not a gelding until you took the saddle off and put on his "breeding halter" ... then he turned into a stallion.

I did everything you could do with a horse on him, from working range cattle to showing him sidesaddle.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

SFM in KY said:


> If the sire and dam of this colt are registered AQHA, which is what the OP was told, I think the odds are that they are buckskin/palomino rather than both being extreme sabino.


I felt I was understanding what everyone was saying, until this post.
The sabino thing is throwing me. I'll go read up and maybe I can figure out what I want to ask. 

To clarify, yes, the owner said both dam (palomino) and sire are AQHA... but I'll question him. If the sire is the stallion I was thinking he meant, then he would be APHA registered. Maybe he mispoke or maybe I didn't correctly identify the stallion. It might be as simple as, "Not him... HIM!". I'll find out for sure when I get a copy of their papers.

It probably sounds like I didn't care enough to ask the right questions at the beginning, but the truth is, because I never had a plan to get into breeding, her lineage wasn't at the forefront of my mind. I ride strictly for pleasure, no competing. My interest was in her physical condition... anything abnormal. (Neighbor on other side is my vet. I'll have him look her over, too.)

The owner is easily accessible to answer my questions, but I won't bother him this week as they have company in from out of town for Christmas. I must restrain myself from being a pain in the grits!


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

CaliannG said:


> My DH and I have this argument *constantly*. HE thinks thoroughbreds are just THE thing. He can wax eloquent about them for hours.
> 
> I spent several years on the tracks, so my thoughts are: "Why would you want a *thoroughbred*? They have nothing but AIR between their ears! They are flighty! They are prima donnas! Do you HATE me? Why would you want to force me to deal with a *thoroughbred*?"
> 
> ...


LOL... 
Get an Arab-TB cross! 
You can each take credit for the sane horse moments, and blame each other for any insane horse moments.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

This thread is just making me remember a BEAUTIFUL dappled gray Arab I was working with oh....a decade ago for some friends of friends?

Not much working, just coming out a couple times a week and lunging him. I wanted that horse SO badly...a 2 year old stallion and just sweet and pretty as you please.

I nearly cried when the owner told me that he was going to get gelded. "WHY?!?" I exclaimed.

He wasn't going to be breeding horses, he did too much boarding to have a stud around, and didn't have time to specially construct a crazy Arab stud-proof enclosure for him as he was SURE to become some wild-eyed, lust-crazed demon....

No, he would not sell him for any price. The horse, once gelded, would become his daughter's to use...her fourth horse. She had already permanently broken 3 other horses.....

:Bawling: :sob:


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

I know of quite a few folk lore sayings, two are as follows, In my days of horse racing;

no white hoof buy it
one white hoof try it
2 white hoof shy it
3 white hoof deny it
4 white hoof resign it

It was true

another tale has some scientific research done. The swirls on the horses head mean certain personality characteristics of a horse.

Here it is copied from another horse site talking about Linda-Tellington Jones' book, Getting in Touch: Understand and Influence Your Horse's Personality. What are facial swirls? 

1. A single swirl between or above the horse's eye is the standard displayed by the majority of horses in her studies. This positioning indicates a horse with a generally uncomplicated nature, but there are variations. Swirls may be set to one side or the other. Swirls set to the left as you face the horse will tend to indicate a bit more complicated horse, but still trustworthy. Swirls set to the right may be less cooperative horses than those with center or to the left swirls. In general, swirls of this sort are less indicative of character than the more complex patterns.
2. A single swirl several inches below the eyes,Linda found 80% of horses with this feature are unusually imaginative and intelligent. They like to amuse themselves creatively like: turn on water, open stall doors, untying complicated knots ("locking picking" horses), find ways to escape pastures ("Horse Houdini's"), etc. These horses are usually of above average intelligence and are interesting characters to deal with.
3. A single long swirl that may be between the eyes, or extend below, indicates a horse who is friendly and particularly enjoys relating to people.
4. Two swirls adjoining, either one above the other, or side by side -- these can be above, between, or below the eyes and are sometimes set at an angle to each other: Horses with this tend to be more emotional and over-reactive than average. They tend to become upset without apparent reason, and at unexpected moments. When such horses blow up, the best way to handle them is to back off and allow them to settle. Punishing them doesn't help; in fact it usually only aggravates the behavior more and can even bring on more resistance. However, Linda says, a horse like this can be a great horse; she has had some of her best show horses with this configuration, but generally, horses with this pattern are not ideal for inexperience riders.
5. Three swirls close together on the forehead (not up under the forelock) is rare. In geldings and mares this indicates a complex individual but not an unpredictable one; stallions, however, with three swirls are another story -- about 80% of the stallions Linda has observed having this three-swirl marking have exhibited unreliable, often dangerous behavior.

Linda feels the best way to use facial swirls in analyzing horse personality is to evaluate them in conjuction with all other characteristics of the horse's head. 

All the swirls seem to be accurate when my friends and I analyzed our horses with it. 

Scary...lol 

There are lots of folklore out there. Anyone else find this swirl theory true?


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Never checked the swirl theory, but I know WHY the hoof theory is true.

White hoof material (this is true in horses, goats, sheep, any animal with hooves) is not as hard as black hoof material. Black hoof material, however, is more brittle than white hoof material. 

On cultivated tracks, horses with black hooves would fare better over time than horses with white hooves. 

The opposite is true for things such as...oh, cross country endurance, where the harder black hooves would be more likely to crack or sheer.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

EasyDay said:


> I felt I was understanding what everyone was saying, until this post.
> The sabino thing is throwing me. I'll go read up and maybe I can figure out what I want to ask.
> 
> To clarify, yes, the owner said both dam (palomino) and sire are AQHA... but I'll question him. If the sire is the stallion I was thinking he meant, then he would be APHA registered.


Colors can be confusing. Maybe this will clarify a little.

AQHA registered horses can be sabino ... many of them are. You will see a number of AQHA horses with white stockings and blazes that are sabino ... BUT if the white goes up to the stifle or there is body white the AQHA will not register them as they have "too much white" ...even though both parents are AQHA registered.

Just like the Connemara registry will register a cremello or perlino mare or gelding but will not issue registration papers to a cremello or perlino stallion. Doesn't matter that it is a purebred and both parents are registered ... it is the "wrong" color. In the case of the AQHA sabinos with too much white ... wrong markings.

What I was saying about the sabino was that you usually only see the "extreme" expression of sabino (an all white or nearly all white foal) when you breed two sabinos with a whole lot of white. I've never seen one in the AQHA breed. Because the registry limits the amount of white a sabino AQHA can be registered with, the chances of having an all-white sabino from AQHA parents would be very limited.

They can be sabino and AQHA registered ... they just can't be "too sabino" ... if that makes any sense! :smack

And I'm sure the filly will be great whether she's registered or not. Not a major issue for you as a riding horse ... just nice to go ahead with it if you can.


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

forgot to add... 

I love my appys. I do believe in breed specific behavior. I think appys just dont fit in to the majorities training style. I really like them because they pay attention to detail. Mine will never run barrels, but she can run the ultimate trail competition. She will jump anything, maintains a steady pace. she really pays attention to where we are going and what is to be expected of her at any second and senses a change in that easily. Not a dead head. Sometimes that means voicing her opinion, then so be it, I always win...lol


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== Never checked the swirl theory, but I know WHY the hoof theory is true.

White hoof material (this is true in horses, goats, sheep, any animal with hooves) is not as hard as black hoof material. Black hoof material, however, is more brittle than white hoof material. ===


Every shoer I know would disagree!

I've never had a reason to shoe my horses, mules, donkeys. Living on and riding on rocky land has kept the hooves healthy and trimmed. No cracks, no splits, no abscesses. One of my mules had 4 white hooves.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

There are over a dozen versions of that poem. But the oldest version I have ever found is 
One white foot, buy him
Two white feet try him
Three white feet, look well about him 
Four white feet go without him. 
Circa 1400s

It actually had nothing to do with strength of the hoof. The giveaway is in "look well about him". Have you ever read Canturbury Tales? Remember the part with the blacksmith who barely remembered people, but remembered the smallest detail or marking of the horses?
Back then, your horse was your John Deere and Lamborghini all in one. And there were serious class issues with them. as a rule, your common man had a horse that way bay, brown or chestnut. More rarely black or gray. Check out breed standards for any draft or working breed established about that time.
There were 2 classes of people who had "flashy" horses. That was royalty, like the royal Palominos of Spain, or the Windsor Greys. To be caught with a royally bred horse meant you stole it and you'd hang. Or at the very least that you were trying to rise above your place - and needed shown it. So if his Lordship had a fine chestnut with tall white stockings, guess what color horse NOBODY else had??

The other class were the traveling folk or gypsies. Welcome nowhere and accused of everything, they wanted skewbalds, piebalds and big old markings or bright colors of any type. Because sure enough if they had a brown gelding with no distinctive markings _someone_ would swear they stole it and there'd be trouble. 
And your common fellow wouldn't be caught dead with something so low as a tinkers horse.

So it's a caution to look towards the breeding and the ownership of the animal. Not the sturdiness of it's feet. 
It just became one of those things that _everyone knew_ for so long that everyone forgot why they knew it.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

And Otter for da win!! Wow, you know even more trivial, useless information than *I* do, and that is saying something cuz I got a LOT of useless trivia packed into my head!

And it would not have occurred to me to look for older, CLASS reasons for such a thing. My farrier had once said that it was due to the hoof material being different....I went up to the University to do some research to make sure the hoof materials *were indeed* different and, since they were, I never looked farther than that.

Cool stuff! Thanks Otter!


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

I was taught by my vet the poem and he said it was that white feet are softer and so is the bone in the fetlock. He sold me standardbreds, raced with me and taught me the ropes. I actually had a one white footer that was fast when timed but the big issue is we work the daylights out of them, way before their first race and that is what kicks the white foots butt...lol


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

One thing that I remember from my dog breeding is that temperaments were HIGHLY hereditary. When you deal with a short generation span and litters of pups, certain things become evident. Craziness will definitely follow a bloodline and a bloodline of crazy chestnuts could easily create the theory that chestnuts are crazy, even if most of them are fine. I've seen colors - in certain bloodlines - that were an indicator of inherited temperaments. 

Also, I am aware that my own blonde hair and fair skin predisposes me to certain health risks - skin cancers, allergies, etc. Not all "old wives tales" are without merit.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Rogo said:


> === Never checked the swirl theory, but I know WHY the hoof theory is true.
> 
> White hoof material (this is true in horses, goats, sheep, any animal with hooves) is not as hard as black hoof material. Black hoof material, however, is more brittle than white hoof material. ===
> 
> ...


My older farrier told me not to worry about the amt of white in my paints hooves. Said it's mostly an old wives tale. Then added "don't worry about this fella's feet... he's got really good, hard feet".

However, the young kid just out of farrier school said... "ya better keep an eye on that hoof. Too much white."

There is no evidence to me that his "whiter" hooves react any differently than his blacker hooves to the terrain. He stays barefoot, so I would think this would be a true example.

ETA: And let's not forget about diets for hoof health. I'm sure both black and white hoof matter is effected equally.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

farmgal said:


> I was taught by my vet the poem and he said it was that white feet are softer and so is the bone in the fetlock. He sold me standardbreds, raced with me and taught me the ropes. I actually had a one white footer that was fast when timed but the big issue is we work the daylights out of them, way before their first race and that is what kicks the white foots butt...lol


Why would color of the hoof effect bone density? 

Lord, don't let this go down the wrong path, but this reminded me that black people have denser bones that white people. Proven scientifically, and sometimes used by the military in water displacement tests. But that's nothing to do with color... it's their lineage. I'm sure an albino white person would still have the bone density of their lineage, even without the pigmentation in their skin.


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

SFM in KY said:


> They can be sabino and AQHA registered ... they just can't be "too sabino" ... if that makes any sense! :smack:
> 
> *LOL... don't beat yourself up, SFM! I understand clearly now.*
> 
> And I'm sure the filly will be great whether she's registered or not. Not a major issue for you as a riding horse ... just nice to go ahead with it if you can.


You're very patient in your explanations. I find this all very fascinating... and way more so with the addition of this filly. I will take this further, but for my own expansion of knowledge for now. I will eventually have her DNA tested so I can see exactly what she's got going on. If I decide to breed her, the knowledge will give me some idea where to start in choosing a sire.

As for a riding horse.... she's just any another 7 month filly right now, and she'll be gentled, trained, and ridden like any other horse... I hope!  There is to be no color discrimination in MY paddock! 

** I secretly hope to dispel some of the rumors by eventually riding in the small local parades, etc., with her all clean and gussied up, where the old locals will think... "how is she riding that soft-footed, blind, white, blue-eyed horse?" LOL**

Of course, since they GIVE them away, maybe I won't change their minds... and be nearby when they're ready to give away the next one!


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

EasyDay said:


> You're very patient in your explanations. I find this all very fascinating... and way more so with the addition of this filly. I will take this further, but for my own expansion of knowledge for now. I will eventually have her DNA tested so I can see exactly what she's got going on. If I decide to breed her, the knowledge will give me some idea where to start in choosing a sire.
> "how is she riding that soft-footed, blind, white, blue-eyed horse?" LOL**
> 
> Of course, since they GIVE them away, maybe I won't change their minds... and be nearby when they're ready to give away the next one!



I am fascinated by color genetics and have done a lot of color breeding along with my sporthorse/ sportpony breeding program. I find is just simply fun ...

If she turns out not to be registered, I don't know if DNA testing will tell you much ... the color test will, of course, tell you if she's double dilute or not. If she's not registered and you decide to breed her, I would simply look at her characteristics, decide what you'd like to improve and look for a stud of "whatever" breed that is most likely to provide those qualities. Most of my original sportpony mares were of 'unknown' pedigree and since I was breeding for movement that would make the offspring more likely to succeed in dressage and eventing/jumping I went to stallions that had those qualities. Sometimes it can be even more fun than breeding "purebreds" ... in my case I love the warmbloods but wanted something smaller. So I bred them!

As for the hoof question, I've owned enough horses that I think I can say I've not found much correlation in hoof color and hoof "toughness". Most of the horses I've had, even the saddle horses on the ranch that got a lot of miles put on them, were never shod. 

As a group, dark hoof or white hoof, the worst feet I've found were in the Thoroughbreds. The old country vet I used for so many years was a horseman/ horse breeder himself, bred racing Quarter Horses and had Thoroughbreds. He said that the TB breeders had bred for speed and used speed as their only criteria in breeding for so many generations that there were a lot of problems bred into them ... bad feet, bad dispositions, reproductive problems ... but that TB breeders would never cull a TB for any of those problems IF they could run.

What he told me over and over again was that if you couldn't turn a broodmare out on pasture 24/7 and if her feet didn't hold up and wear evenly under these conditions and if you couldn't get her bred on the first cycle under normal circumstances without a lot of vet intervention ... sell her to someone with a lot of money! She would always be expensive to maintain and her foals would likely have many of those same issues.

I've paid attention to his advice for 20 years now and my broodmares can run out on pasture 365 days a year and the most I have to do with feet is rasp the occasional chip or corner ... and I rarely have a mare that doesn't settle on the first breeding.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

SFM in KY said:


> As a group, dark hoof or white hoof, the worst feet I've found were in the Thoroughbreds. The old country vet I used for so many years was a horseman/ horse breeder himself, bred racing Quarter Horses and had Thoroughbreds. He said that the TB breeders had bred for speed and used speed as their only criteria in breeding for so many generations that there were a lot of problems bred into them ... bad feet, bad dispositions, reproductive problems ... but that TB breeders would never cull a TB for any of those problems IF they could run.


So true. And thanks to Otter for the LOGICAL explanation of why a person would shy away from white feet! In my career as a farrier, I've trimmed probably tens of thousands of feet across the US and have trimmed a few in Europe too  and have never felt that white feet were "softer" or more prone to lameness of any kind.

And the part about foot conformation being hereditary and (most) TB breeders breeding only for speed is absolutely true. Several years ago there were some Strasser trimmers in my area saying that ALL horses could go barefoot if just trimmed to the Strasser specifications (never mind that the horses were expected to be lame for up to a year while "transitioning"!) They were using a local competitor and his horse as an example that a TB can do 3-day Eventing barefoot. Thing is, that I ATTENDED the Championship competition that they were showing photos of, and I know the farm and it's fabulous footing on the XC course. The Strasser trimmers were using a TB who did have good feet, on a course that was very forgiving and great for a barefoot horse, for their poster child. They proclaimed over and over that because of this horse, ALL horses could compete at the highest levels of any sport barefoot and refused to acknowledge that some horses genetically have better feet than others.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

malinda said:


> ......ALL horses could compete at the highest levels of any sport barefoot and refused to acknowledge that some horses genetically have better feet than others.


Okay, I've never heard of Strasser or his method of trimming hooves, but a thought occurred to me:

If all horses were REQUIRED to compete at the highest levels barefoot, wouldn't that cause breeders to go for breeding those horses with better feet? And wouldn't that be a GOOD thing, if horses had soundness bred into them as WELL as athletic ability in their niche event?

~smiles~ Inquiring minds want to know.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

malinda said:


> The Strasser trimmers were using a TB who did have good feet, on a course that was very forgiving and great for a barefoot horse, for their poster child. They proclaimed over and over that because of this horse, ALL horses could compete at the highest levels of any sport barefoot and refused to acknowledge that some horses genetically have better feet than others.


Having seen a number of 'fads' come and go in the equine world, my opinion is that many of these new/fad techniques garner enthusiasts that quickly become fanatics. As with any other form of fanaticism, they insist that their way is the "only" way and works for everything.

Barefoot trimming. Clicker training. Natural horsemanship. ... going back much further ... whip breaking.

The fact is there is no one solution to anything and the fanatics do a disservice to the people and the horses when they get fixated on something like this.

As far as horsebreeding goes, the 'commercial' breeders select for what sells and that can do a lot of damage. Thoroughbreds bred for racing can run ... and sometimes not much else. Show Arabs look pretty and have huge eyes that bug out of their heads and you probably couldn't ride any one of them across 25 miles of any desert in the world. Halter QHs and Paints are bred for such exaggerated muscle plus fine bone and small feet you can't keep them sound enough to train them to do anything under saddle.

I've often felt I was very fortunate to have grown up on a working ranch with my grandfather, who lived at a time when all of the work of a ranch got done with horses and you couldn't afford to have horses that could not get out and do the work day after day with a minimum of effort.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== I rarely have a mare that doesn't settle on the first breeding. ===


All the years I bred, my broodmare band and outside mares took on the first breeding. All foals were born healthy. Never saw a vet during those years (or since!) I did hand breeding by myself.

All stock roamed free on 40 acres with mountains to climb. Riding mounts were always in shape for any type of ride. Foals grew great legs/hooves, and all stock's hooves were naturally trimmed by the land.

I've always free choice fed.

3 weeks before due date, each mare was put in her own foaling 'stall' -- 1/2 acre with a large loafing shed (3 sides and a roof). Mare, and foal when born, could see the free roaming herd and the herd could see them when the herd was in the area. All of the mares delivered outside. Their choice. 

I didn't go in to their area until the foal nursed. I then hugged the mare and foal and told them "good job!" Before the day was over, a halter was put on the foal and removed several times. They never cared. I figured they trusted me because the mares did. Halters were never left on all the time. 
Didn't have to be since I could walk up to each baby anytime and rub ears, back, belly, rump, and lift hooves.

When foals were 3 weeks old, mare and foal were turned out into the herd.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

CaliannG said:


> Okay, I've never heard of Strasser or his method of trimming hooves, but a thought occurred to me:
> 
> If all horses were REQUIRED to compete at the highest levels barefoot, wouldn't that cause breeders to go for breeding those horses with better feet? And wouldn't that be a GOOD thing, if horses had soundness bred into them as WELL as athletic ability in their niche event?
> 
> ~smiles~ Inquiring minds want to know.


Shoeing a horse does not automatically mean that it is completely unsound barefoot. Some of the highest levels of competition require more traction than even the best bare hoof can provide - and in the case of Reining horses, they need less traction than a bare hoof on their hinds in order to do the sliding stops.

One of the reasons Eventers, and to some extent Show Jumpers use removable studs in their shoes for traction is because you never know what the course's footing will be like until you get there, and there is a vast difference across the US in soil types, amount of pecipitation, and thus ground conditions. You are at the mercy at the weather, and you may be the 1st horse on course, or you may be the 200th horse on course. Obviously you would use very different studs if the conditions were dry/hard and you were one of the first on course, rather than if the ground was saturated from weeks of rain and 199 horses ran the course before it was your turn to go.

Many lower to mid-level competition horses are indeed barefoot, and do quite well. Though the difference in what kind of training, how much, how often, and how difficult, is huge when you are talking about horses like mine who are at Training Level in Dressage, jumping maybe 2' Cross Country fences at a nice medium canter versus a horse who is training Grand Prix Dressage movements or jumping 4+feet, 6' drops, huge ditches, in and out of water, all at a full gallop. If a horse starts slipping and sliding around on course he WILL either begin refusing jumps or if he tries them anyway, possibly coming in too close, tripping, sliding or falling over the jumps, it usually does not end well for the horse or the rider.

If horses were required to compete barefoot, you could not safely hold the highest levels of competition in some of these disciplines. Horseshoes give a horse added protection and/or traction when they need it.

As far as breeding for sound feet and legs, I believe the WB breeders (who are the ones with their types of horses in the Olympics and other very high levels of competion) are perhaps one of the better types of breeders in that aspect. Everyone will agree that to breed for soundness, you need to start with horses with correct conformation, including foot conformation. That is what will give them the best chance of long term soundness. The warmblood associations all have inspections for breeding horses (most have inspections for foals too). The stallions must pass a rigorous test that includes Dressage, Show Jumping, and Cross Country jumping, and they are evaluated by Judges and test riders on their temperaments, rideability, and overall performance during the 70 or 90 day tests. If the stallion owner chooses not to send their horse to the stallion testing, the stallion can still be approved for breeding once he accumulates enough scores at the higher levels of his discipline (Dressage, Eventing, Show Jumping, or Hunters). This proves to the WB associations that he is competitive in his sport and has remained sound throughout his career. Mares also must be inspected (performance tests are usually optional for mares), and any breeding horses with bad conformation faults are culled from the association's gene pool.

Compare that to most American breeds who's only requirement for foals to be registered is that both parents are registered. I live in the middle of Quarter Horse land, and these poor WP and halter horses are washed up and retired at the age of 7! They are unsound from conformational defects (tiny hooves on large bodies) and also because they are worked hard in endless circles at a very young age. There is no incentive for breeders to breed for long-term soundness when they can win thousands and thousands of dollars in yearling and 2 year old futurities!! (and I don't think shoes or no shoes would make a difference in this aspect)

So there's my very long-winded reply to your question and sorry for taking this somewhat off-topic


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

"One white foot, buy him; two white feet, try him; three white feet, look well about him; four white feet, go without him."

My mare had 4 white feet ...


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

willow_girl said:


> "One white foot, buy him; two white feet, try him; three white feet, look well about him; four white feet, go without him."
> 
> My mare had 4 white feet ...


better get rid of her.. You can send her to me...lol...


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

malinda said:


> So there's my very long-winded reply to your question and *sorry for taking this somewhat off-topic*


I just keep reading and learning... and when I read the bolded part, I had to chuckle.

OP is old wives' tales, we went through eye color, color science and genetics, and on to hooves and shoes. We're pretty good at going off-topic! LOL

I'm not complainin'... I'm learning!


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Thread drift happens. And thank you, Malinda, for taking the time to explain things so thoroughly to me.

I will mention here that I *thoroughly* disapprove of racing....just in case someone gets upset at me for having my nose thoroughly in the air over it. That means racing horses, whether Thoroughbred, QH, Arab, Barrel Racing, Steeplechasing, Harness Racing, Endurance Racing, Track Racing....or racing dogs. I have been too close to it and I just cannot stomach how the racing industry uses up and throws away animals. And on such a *large scale*.

That said, I am withholding my opinion on dressage until I have gathered more information......especially upon Grand Prix Dressage. So for right now, I am not going to say anything as I don't have an opinion about it....but that is not to say that I won't have an opinion in the near future.

It's nice to know that many of the lower to mid level competitions are safe enough for a lot of horses to compete barefoot.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

CaliannG said:


> It's nice to know that many of the lower to mid level competitions are safe enough for a lot of horses to compete barefoot.


My foundation Connemara pony stallion, Stormy, was trained to ride on a cattle ranch, trained to drive, competed in low level dressage and green hunters and never had a shoe in his life. I did most of the trimming myself with just a rasp.

The sire of my current Connemara Pony competed in 50-mile endurance/ competitive trail rides for many years and he competed barefoot. My stallion is now 8 years old, has been trained under saddle but not shown and has never had shoes either.

I haven't done as much competing as many people ... I've always been more interested in training than competition and almost always been riding green horses ... but I have rarely had to shoe my horses. The only horse that I've owned that has been in upper level competition ... and been shod ... was Weltstern. His feet were not in good condition when I bought him, spent years trying to get his contracted heels grown out/spread ... but my vet and farrier felt pretty sure it was poor shoeing practices that caused much of that, not genetics ... and I did not see a big problem in his offspring with feet. After he retired from competition (2 seasons) at 16, I brought him back home and he has been barefoot every since, with no issues, though of course not being ridden. And of course he's 28 this year.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

~smiles at SFM~ I would not know dressage if it came up and bit me right on my derriere. My experience is in racing...then active ranch work: herding, cutting, stuff like that. Third is bareback, trail and pleasure riding, but never in competition. I am just not into do a bunch of competing. 

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE to learn how to ride side-saddle, but when I have the money for things like expensive antique, or expensive modern side-saddles along with expensive lessons, I either don't have the time (have a job that is taking all the time so that I can make the money to afford such things) or I am living someplace where people say "A SIDE saddle instructor? No, I don't think I know *anyone* who rides like that, much less teaches it!"

And that is not something that I think I want to just buy the expensive saddle and put it on my horse with the idea of being able to figure out how ride myself....not to mention teaching the *horse* that it isn't some sort of evil contraption meant to eat him. So unless I win the lottery, I guess I am doomed to forever riding astride, rather than aside.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

I meant the thread drift regarding my rant about AQHA futurities.

And I'll have to disagree that Endurance racing is anything like typical flat track Arab/QH/or TB racing. The little I've recently learned about Endurance racing seems to me that the organizers and competitors strive to keep the horses sound and structure the rules of the rides around a long-term soundness goal. They have stringent vet checks before, during, and after the rides, and have minimum age requirements for the horses to compete in the longer rides.

I used to be an exercise rider and sometimes jockey for a farm near me who races TBs and Arabians. The owner recently decided to quit racing her horses and is now starting Endurance and Competitive Trail, and is cross-training her horses in Dressage over the winter. We've been trailering to our Dressage lessons together this winter and she is trying to get me to try a Competitive Trail ride on my gelding in spring


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

I will admit that it has been *some* time since I went anywhere near the racing industry of any kind. (Soft heart...leads to a soft stomach). I am glad to hear that rules around endurance racing have changed to betterment of the horses.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

CaliannG said:


> I would LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE to learn how to ride side-saddle, but when I have the money for things like expensive antique, or expensive modern side-saddles along with expensive lessons, I either don't have the time (have a job that is taking all the time so that I can make the money to afford such things) or I am living someplace where people say "A SIDE saddle instructor? No, I don't think I know *anyone* who rides like that, much less teaches it!".


I actually had a sidesaddle for a number of years and pretty much taught myself to ride it. (Not many sidesaddle instructors in Montana). Had a couple of horses, including my Arab, that worked fine with it and I had fun with it.

I did, in fact, show the Arab in sidesaddle a couple of times ... didn't place but didn't get the gate. But there weren't a lot of Arab shows in Montana at the time, either and I only showed for a couple of seasons, maybe half a dozen shows at the outside.


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

CaliannG said:


> I will admit that it has been *some* time since I went anywhere near the racing industry of any kind. (Soft heart...leads to a soft stomach). I am glad to hear that rules around endurance racing have changed to betterment of the horses.


Has Endurance riding ever been much different than now? I've been reading up on it and haven't found anything saying it has changed much over the years.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

malinda said:


> Has Endurance riding ever been much different than now? I've been reading up on it and haven't found anything saying it has changed much over the years.


I don't know that the rules have changed that much. I was first introduced to endurance riding back in the 60s, when I lived in Las Vegas, couldn't afford to keep my own horse and found a "job" exercising 100-mile endurance horses for a couple who kept 3 or 4 in training.

My last "close encounter" with endurance riding was around 2001/ 2002 when I got to know the owner of the sire of my current Connemara quite well. She competed with him in 50-mile endurance and competitive trail riding.

From what I heard from both of these people, the rules have always been quite similar and there have always been many mandatory check points throughout the ride, with vets doing the physical checks and horses not allowed to go on if they are lame or if the temperature, pulse and respiration rates are not within "safe" limits. If there have been changes made, I suspect it has to do with findings from more testing as to what is "safe" and what is not


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== I would LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE to learn how to ride side-saddle ===


There used to be a side-saddle club here. All members rode them on the trail rides. Don't know if they're still around.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

There was one in Sheridan, WY in the 70s that was very active. Haven't heard anything about it at all for years so no clue if it's still active or not.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Something else that isn't seen anymore that we used to enjoy -- square dancing on horseback.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

CaliannG said:


> That said, I am withholding my opinion on dressage until I have gathered more information......especially upon Grand Prix Dressage.


Especially in the higher levels, it is very hard to be competitive if the horse doesn't _enjoy_ doing it. My (lol, and everyone else's) favorite video is here; [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQgTiqhPbw[/ame]
Watch it twice. The second time, try to catch all the small details. Look at the loose and relaxed set of her ears. She actually lets them flop about when she knows she's doing it right.
She has a very active tail. In the beginning she is flat out switching it in a _let me_ get _to it_ sort of way, but there are several places on the video where she is clearly moving her head and tail in time to the music.
Every dressage routine includes the walk. It is a test of obedience. And here you can see it (if you look closely) See how she starts "asking" with the bit? She wants permission to get back to dancing. You can see how the faster and more precise of the movements are her favorites. She doesn't prefer the slower ones and just does the pirouettes because she is supposed too. But she clearly enjoys the difficulty of the flying changes and lateral work.
And at the end, notice how the more the crowd claps, the more height she gets and the more her head and tail keep the beat.
That is a happy horse.
And notice how they mention several times that she is "only" nine years old. This is not a flash in the pan, futurity type sport. (I despise futurities too, malinda you're not alone)

Jumping is similar. Most horses love it. They get addicted like heroin. You can actually use jumping as a reward for them. If they don't like it, there's only so much you can make them do. You will certainly never be able to compete at any high level with a horse that doesn't _want_ to jump. I once rode a horse who had to be retired from jumping for his legs. Too well mannered a gentleman to move his feet without being asked, he would_ lean_ his whole body towards a jump.

And while there is absolutely nothing that you can do with a horse that has a guarantee of them not getting hurt (I personally have known several horses hurt and even killed turned out in a pasture) I can't see a way to hurt a horse doing dressage besides rider abuse.
Jumping, well, is a dangerous sport. Far more riders are hurt then horses (not that that makes it right) But there are a lot of safeguards for the safety of the horse. And having ridden it, with horses from grizzled old school horses to a retired USET horse, let me tell you, if a horse feels he can't take a jump - he won't take it. _You_ may still go over it, but the horse will just not jump if he doesn't think he can clear it. He may be wrong and not able to, it happens, but the whole thing is as set up to not hurt a horse as it can be.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

CaliannG said:


> My DH and I have this argument *constantly*. HE thinks thoroughbreds are just THE thing. He can wax eloquent about them for hours.
> 
> I spent several years on the tracks, so my thoughts are: "Why would you want a *thoroughbred*? They have nothing but AIR between their ears! They are flighty! They are prima donnas! Do you HATE me? Why would you want to force me to deal with a *thoroughbred*?"
> 
> ...


LOL, if you take ANY horse and feed it 20 pounds of grain a day and keep it in a stall for 23 hours a day and take him out (to run if a TB, to prance if an Arab) for a tiny bit of exercise and right back in - you'll make him insane.
Go on and get a TB, turn him out and make sure that the first few times you ride him have someone at his head or are in an indoor arena (lol, or both) so he can learn that rider doesn't have to = _GO!_ and you will quickly have an awesome horse.
Probably with not-so-great hooves, but generally a lovely personality. I've played with lots of OTTBs and most of them are very sweet and people-pleasers once they "detox"


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

I had a medicine hat mare that had 2 blue eyes and she was crazy as a March hare.

But she wasn't crazy because she had blue eyes. She was crazy because she had a screw loose in her brain.

I think she had some sort of vision problem. She could see, but she'd have a freaked out, panic attack, huge shy from things that weren't there. Then stand there blowing and trembling, staring at empty space.

I've also had a blue eyed, white pony that was 100% safe to put even the rankest beginner on and go out on the streets. Safest baby-sitter you'll ever meet.

I don't think the eye color is the issue. Except that blue eyes are usually set in pink skin and the horse will get horrible sunburn around the eyes.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

malinda said:


> Has Endurance riding ever been much different than now? I've been reading up on it and haven't found anything saying it has changed much over the years.


Endurance riding or endurance racing?

Endurance racing, if they now have rules that are very careful about the well-being and soundness of the horse, has changed quite a bit from the mid-80's.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

oregon woodsmok said:


> I had a medicine hat mare that had 2 blue eyes and she was crazy as a March hare.
> 
> But she wasn't crazy because she had blue eyes. She was crazy because she had a screw loose in her brain.
> 
> ...


isn't that funny, when I was a kid (70's) there was a horse(Lodi) at horse camp for a while that was a medicine hat appaloosa with two blue eyes. He was half mustang half appy and was born wild, caught and used as a ranch horse, then given to the camp when he got too old and crazy. Huge hooves. I always thought he was beautiful, it seemed like he breathed fire. Yup the scuttlebutt was that TWO blue eyes=crazy, on the other hand the medicine hat made him some kind of special spirit-horse or shaman kind of thing--an old soul that was very much independent, wild and does not do well with being civilized and so must be respected(ha, this was a christian camp too). He would wig out just like you describe, though if you could hang on things got better(and Lodi got to know you and you proved righteous). Of course that was a liability for a camp, and they couldn't find a new home for a crazy horse, so he went to slaughter. He sure was a singular horse though, very beautiful in a crazy way, he sure taught me a lot.

Funny too, the saddle and bridle that came with him was a shabby (kinda simple, or maybe someone yanked the conchos) black parade set, like what they used to put on palominos, tapaderas etc. SHarp dressed horse!


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Otter, I am with you about the race horses and 20 lbs of grain + 23 hours of leisure ....and I always thought, even back when I was attached to the industry that:

1. They race horses too young and it is stupid.
2. What a stupid way to build athleticism in ANY animal, humans included!

I mean, it's like putting a 10-year-old on a diet of 8 glasses of MegaMass 2000 per day, sticking him on a treadmill for an hour a day, and then when he is 12, expecting him to run record breaking 1000 yard dashes.....

By the time that kid is 15, he is going to be MESSED UP, mentally, emotionally and physically.

And might I say I *giggled* through that entire dressage performance? That mare was having a BLAST!


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## malinda (May 12, 2002)

CaliannG said:


> Endurance riding or endurance racing?
> 
> Endurance racing, if they now have rules that are very careful about the well-being and soundness of the horse, has changed quite a bit from the mid-80's.


Endurance riding is a race. I have always heard the terms used interchangeably for the same sport. The governing association for Endurance is the AERC, and, according to their website, was founded in 1972. The first Endurance race in the US was what is now known as the Tevis Cup, and was held in 1955.


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

malinda said:


> Endurance riding is a race. I have always heard the terms used interchangeably for the same sport. The governing association for Endurance is the AERC, and, according to their website, was founded in 1972. The first Endurance race in the US was what is now known as the Tevis Cup, and was held in 1955.


The endurance horses I exercised in Las Vegas in the 1960s were 100-milers and the goal for the owners was the Tevis Cup. The conditioning was based on pulse/temperature/respiration rate and there were vet checks during the race and pre-determined intervals (don't remember how far apart they were now) to check for lameness and recovery rates for temperature/pulse/respiration ... the horses had to get from "competition" levels back to "resting" levels within a certain amount of time or they were not allowed to go on.

It was a race ... the shortest time over the 100 miles was the winner but even then they also had "best conditioned" awards as well ... and equine vets were at all of the checkpoints.


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

I've known some Tevis riders. As much as I love to ride, I'll stick with our 
6 - 7 hour rides!


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## sarhound (Mar 11, 2008)

I've got a new horse coming in a couple of weeks-- half Andalusian, half paint. She's strawberry roan, has a few paint spots on her belly, bald face, and the most gorgeous ice-blue eyes I've ever seen.

I had heard tales of blue-eyed horses being prone to cataracts, but my carriage boss laid a new one on me yesterday-- &quot;blue eyed horses bite.&quot;

She's 3, currently in her 2nd month of training, and within 10 minutes of meeting me, was following me like a puppy dog. She hasn't been handled by anyone other than the trainer. I love her disposition.

I don't think she's going to be a biter...

Sent from my Incredible using Tapatalk


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## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

sarhound said:


> I've got a new horse coming in a couple of weeks-- half Andalusian, half paint. She's strawberry roan, has a few paint spots on her belly, bald face, and the most gorgeous ice-blue eyes I've ever seen.
> 
> I had heard tales of blue-eyed horses being prone to cataracts, but my carriage boss laid a new one on me yesterday-- &quot;*blue eyed horses bite*.&quot;
> 
> ...


I've never heard that one, either.
Well, we'll "nip" that in the bud real quick!


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