# Worker Unrest - in Wisconsin?



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

New austerity measures have hit Wisconsin with the proposal of an emergency budget that's going to seriously slash some government employee salaries.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nati...fter-gov-unveils-emergency-budget-plan-2011-2

The governor has told Milwaukee Public Radio (MPR?) that he put in some calls to the national guard to make sure they're ready for "worker unrest".

In the grand scheme of things, this budget cut isn't so bad (or at least not from what's being reported in the news). However, let's think for a moment about what might happen if really severe cuts were to hit.

Firemen and police are laid off or go on strike.
Road crews stop showing up for work.
Teachers and other school employees shut down the schools.
Unions call for mass protests. Other sympathetic unions join in.
Civil disturbances in major cities.

How would you cope? Do you have the means to carry on without the apparatus of state to support you? Does your community? Do you have any plans in place?


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## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

They can all quit as far as I am concerned, I've been getting along just fine without any need for the Govt for many years.


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## chickenman (May 13, 2002)

Coming soon to a state near you!

I did hear on Fox earlier today that firemen and police were exempt. For the rest of them it's simple. Either make concessions or be unemployed.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

i have some relatives that are "essential " wis state employees , it sounds like they will be takiing a 8-10 % pay cut, pay more for health insurance , and make contributuions to their pension.
i can see many rallies maybe even strikes , but i would expect much more of the sit in type , non violent civil disobediance type things , if you get anything.

the only states cops are state troopers and capitol police (hyw motor carrier enforcment and captiol buildng security) , each city has it's own police force , each county it's own sherrif , most firemen in wisconsin are volenteers sure madison ,millwakee ,green bay, wausaw, janesville, beloit, racine, kenosha, lacross, a few others and suburbs of milwakee are paid fire but they get paid by the city and take their jobs very seriosly i don't expect that they would walk off of thier jobs because state employees are going to take some pay cuts. 

so far this is all politicing make is sound like they are all up poo creek and paddle less then they won't complain so much about paying 50 a month more for health insurance and a 8% pay cut


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

I have a few family members that are employed by the state of Wisconsin (including my Dad). Most of the state employees I've talked to realize that the state is in a budget crunch and they'll have to make concessions for sure. What has Wisconsin's state workers so upset is that Scott Walker wants to eliminate the Union's ability of collective bargaining. A union that can't bargain isn't much of a union. 

What I support is eliminating all the Spanish interpreters at our state's welfare offices (I've seen them first hand) and an Arizona style push to get folks who aren't even citizens out off the state and off the Wisconsin tax payer's dime. Not surprisingly Scott Walker has been rather quiet on that point (because it helps out certain private business). 

The budget problem needs to be attacked at all angles. What I don't like is seeing my tax money go to large corporations for tax breaks and free land only to have them dump out on the small communities that begged them to come. There are two separate companies in the near by small town that have both let down the county (and by extension) state tax payers. One left for Mexico and the other cut it's work force by half even though as part of the deal the company had to hire X number of workers to get the free land the factory is now built on. 

Scott Walker keeps talking about giving mine and my fellow Wisconsinite's tax dollars for tax breaks to businesses. What I see is a double standard, it is okay for the private sector to walk out on it's responsibilities and take public money yet those who do public service are supposed to take deep cuts. He is not being very impartial to how to balance the budget, instead he is focusing on one group like a laser beam while ignoring other causes of Wisconsin's budget shortfall. I don't disagree that public sector employees will need to make concessions but they should not be the only people targeted in trying to trim the budget to a sustainable level.


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## vallyfarm (Oct 24, 2006)

Here in NY it seems like 9 outa 10 people here are on the Gov't payroll. Be that teachers, Cops, Roadcrew, or just food stamps and wellfare. If the Govoner wants to cut 1 stinking mid level job here the TV news makes it sound like the whole state will collapse. If I rember correctly it is actually 1 in 5 are employed by the gov't here. Actual payroll employees. Our roads are crap, a cop takes well over an hour to get here (really!!), the schools go further downhill, and they have 2 aids and a "teacher" in every room where I live I have to pay Extra taxes for Ambulance here, plus pay for the ambulance if I should call. Let the whole cheeting,corupt,bankrupt system fail. That is the only way we can expect to fix the mess we have here. Back when families took care of each other, neibours too. Why do wee need a system that pays women to pop out a new kid every other year and never marry so she can get a bigger dole? Used to be a shame on the whole family if a girl got knocked up in school,:ashamed: now they have a daycare in the MIDDLE SCHOOL so the kids can stay. This is a shame on all of us and needs to be fixed. :cowboy: Mike


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

phill i agree with you they shouldn't be the only ones to take cuts , the way i see the concetions they are probably going to make it will put them about on par for having gotten their raises when much of the rest of the states private employees have not seen raises in many years. 

if a company said they would hire x and they didn't or they pull out of town all together that plant goes back to the people of that county and it should be used for a bussiness incubator building 

Walker got elected for 2 major reasons , people were sick of doyle and his social aganda , and people think , or see state employees with good jobs good health benifits and if they can't have them they sure son't want to pay for someone else to have a good job and good benifits.

there is a reason Madisons unemployment is signifigantly lower than surrounding cities like beloit and jainsville , even with a lot of people looking for work in madison there is just that much more money being put into the economy there as state jobs so with more people employes more other non state employees are employed and things don't spiral out like other parts of the state did at one point beloit was at 20-21% unemployment and at the same time madison an hour away had 7-8%

also it is the case and i think anyone can see this , someone always thinks they know a better way , and if they see an inifecency costing them $ at the state level that changes their perceptions of how the state goverment works , and they vote their perception.

phil ,do you see your dad or his coworkers as likly of causing any disturbances?
i know a bunch of state employees and i just don't see it happening , like i said maybe a strike , maybe a big sit in at the capitol building or on the square , but they are more likly to have a stage with local bands and eat brats ,than riot with anger over turning cars and causing damage.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

well madison city schools are all closed today mass teacher sick out , they are organizing a protest for today 4500 employees work for madison public schools according to the news.
enough of them sicked out that they cosed school , if they can't prove thier illness with a doctors note they will be docked the days pay , this could balance the school buget if the sick out long enough of cource all the kids now need to make this day up in june 

not that i think the kids will they may be teacher sympathetic but they should organize their own sit in and all sit in class without speaking or participating at all in calss in protest to having to go more days later in june perhaps while wearing their swim suits over their cloths


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> phill i agree with you they shouldn't be the only ones to take cuts , the way i see the concetions they are probably going to make it will put them about on par for having gotten their raises when much of the rest of the states private employees have not seen raises in many years.
> 
> I agree with that. There is way too much of a gap between private sector and public sector pay.
> 
> phil ,do you see your dad or his coworkers as likly of causing any disturbances?


Probably not. He works for a prison so I don't think it would be wise for any one to cause any disturbances. 



GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> well madison city schools are all closed today mass teacher sick out , they are organizing a protest for today 4500 employees work for madison public schools according to the news.
> enough of them sicked out that they cosed school , if they can't prove thier illness with a doctors note they will be docked the days pay , this could balance the school buget if the sick out long enough of cource all the kids now need to make this day up in june


I doubt a mass teacher walkout will garner much sympathy. If anything I think it could backfire.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Ernie said:


> New austerity measures have hit Wisconsin with the proposal of an emergency budget that's going to seriously slash some government employee salaries.
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/nati...fter-gov-unveils-emergency-budget-plan-2011-2
> 
> ...



Can you imagine a revolution starting in Wisconsin? It's just not a place that people normally think of as being discontent. You always think the big three LA, NY, and Chicago, or even maybe Atlanta and Detroit, as being the most likely places of unrest.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

mekasmom said:


> Can you imagine a revolution starting in Wisconsin? It's just not a place that people normally think of as being discontent. You always think the big three LA, NY, and Chicago, or even maybe Atlanta and Detroit, as being the most likely places of unrest.


Who'da'thunk a fruit vendor in Tunisia would bring down his country and Egypt (and Iran and Libya and Jordan and Syria??? and...)


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

State workers will probably buckle under to a 10% pay cut.

Where you are going to see riots is when the welfare recipients get some of their free goodies taken away.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

texican said:


> Who'da'thunk a fruit vendor in Tunisia would bring down his country and Egypt (and Iran and Libya and Jordan and Syria??? and...)


Dont suppose we can get our politicians to self-immolate first as a way of inspiring voters?


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## PrairieOaks (Jan 22, 2009)

Walker has given away about what will be saved this year to his corp. buddies and I am getting robo calls form "Club for Growth" a national right wing conservative group saying I should call my rep to support the bill. If one reads the whole bill, the employee additional payments to retirement and health insurance all only a small part. It is the union busting, favor pay backs to law enforcement and fire unions (not included as they supported him in the fall election) and changing many state jobs to 'appointed by the governor'. As always in politics, follow the money-this time it leads out of state to Club for Growth and the Koch Bros.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

oregon woodsmok said:


> Where you are going to see riots is when the welfare recipients get some of their free goodies taken away.


That's what is the scariest part of this depression. Young, healthy, strong people could start rioting at the thought of loosing their freebies. 

And I also think that will make the elderly more at risk of cuts because the government wouldn't expect cutting elder benefits to start violent riots simply due to the infirmities of aging.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

texican said:


> Who'da'thunk a fruit vendor in Tunisia would bring down his country and Egypt (and Iran and Libya and Jordan and Syria??? and...)


Amazing what the "little people" in a society can do, isn't it? A little black woman refusing to give up her seat on the bus started the whole civil rights movement.


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## jlrbhjmnc (May 2, 2010)

I heard an Associated Press radio "report" this morning that interviewed a teacher at the protest. Gee whiz, she was going to have to actually pay for her own health insurance. I've always paid for my own health insurance and had to eat a 14% increase this year because I cannot shop the policies due to Obamacare. Most jobs I've had didn't even offer health insurance. Too many Americans have become accustomed to things we cannot pay for. Period. Those "benefits" are luxuries that the rest of us never had in the first place because we'd have to pay for them instead of thinking they are "free."


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

I've been watching it with a lot of interest actually (usually find the coverage of this sort of protest biased and rather boring). What amazes me is that it's illegal for a state worker to call in sick and then not BE sick. (I was a state worker for a few years, manager type, and had to enforce that particular law) And yet....it seems to be just fine for the teachers to call in sick, shut down all the schools because of it, and then show up at a protest and be on camera. 

As to Walker focusing on this...well, he has to focus on something first. His background shows that he's a "get THIS done and done well, then move on", so my guess, and it's purely a guess, is that he'll move on to his next target. 

oooOOO. We're making the national news casts. 

It amazes me that they're getting any sympathy at all. They are making above the national average (higher than our surrounding states as well), large benefit packages...(all that is fine with me..get what you can, I suppose) BUT..they've flat out refused to negotiate in the past. 'nope. give us our raises, we'll walk out otherwise'. 

Just last year Gov Doyle put enforced furlough days on the non-union workers because the union workers wouldn't take a 2% pay cut that the non-union workers were taking. 

Don't get me wrong..unions had their place. Still have in some ways. But when we're forced to the brink of bankruptcy, shutting down ALL services..and the union won't allow even a small cut in salary, or, heaven forbid..paying something for your health insurance? goodness. 

what they did with this walkout is get every parent in the area against them. Schools closed all over the place, making parents scramble for child care. It's pretty peaceful tho. Don't go by what's being shown on some of the national things. The only time they seem to go into the chanting mode is when there's an interview. (I've been watching local news which goes into it pretty fully)


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Every over paid state and fed employee is peeing and moaning her in MAine too...my sister as a state employee is being asked to give 1% more to insure the state retirement plan is solvent....she is FURIOUS! 

Our ins. has gone up 20% a year for the last 4 years...to the tune of $14k a year with a 5k deductible and we are HEALTHY! 40's....I'd gladly fork over more if it meant 1) having a job 2) having a pension and 3) not burdening future generations to the point that welfare is appealing ( wait! sorry this has already happened!)


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

The thing is, the job market responds to outside pressure very well. When there's 20 million people outside the door clamoring for your job then you'd best show management that you can do your job better than 20 million other people, or be willing to make concessions that those 99-weekers wouldn't make.


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## PrairieOaks (Jan 22, 2009)

From Wisconsin Ann-----His background shows that he's a "get THIS done and done well, then move on", ----------check out his record by those who live in and understand Milwaukee County and you find his misses the 'done well' part. Again, follow the money. I am not a big labor union supporter, sit on the county grievance committee and see some really dumb filings but this bill is more than just paying more for insurance and retirement. Union killer (except his buds the police and fireman) and extending the role of the governers political appointee power.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

Wisconsin Ann said:


> Just last year Gov Doyle put enforced furlough days on the non-union workers because the union workers wouldn't take a 2% pay cut that the non-union workers were taking.


My Dad had furlough days last year and he was a union employee. Also he had to pay some for his health insurance, while still really low it was something. I don' t know about the teacher's union but the correctional officer union is more mad about the potential loss of collective bargaining than they are about small pay cuts.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I just saw the Wisconsin demonstrations on TV, and what is being proposed in cuts. Also the portion of the legistative branch left town so no vote on the bill.

So - if his is happening around you - what are you doing to get through this? anything more, or just hunkering down and watching and evaluating?

Rest of us - what would happen in your area if this was happening there, and what would you be doing.?


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

I guess union leaders didn't learn anything from the PATCO/Reagan days.

Strikes will only get you so far....and when they're unreasonable, they'll get you unemployed.


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

Also the portion of the legistative branch left town so no vote on the bill.

THIS should be illegal. Since when do the legislators, who are paid by the public, get to *not* do their jobs, and thus the people's business?

I say they ought to slam them in jail for a while.


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## Deb862 (Jun 22, 2005)

I actually saw an interview just a bit ago with one of the protestors (a teacher I presume) who actually had the audacity to compare what she/they were doing to what just happened in Egypt! I was floored to say the least. How the heck can you compare people fighting for democratic freedom and to overthrow basically 30-year dictator to crying/protesting because you might have to pay for some health insurance and might lose some bennies?????? 

This is all gonna get real interesting real quick I think, as it will no doubt spread to other cities, states, etc., as soon as the cuts that are necessary start being rolled out. I find it really strange and disappointing that many people who will be out there chanting "Less Spending, Less Spending" then elect people who will do it, then when the cuts start coming start protesting "But not MY benefits!" I believe this is why the PTB keep printing money to pay for all this stuff 'cause the minute they don't there are protests. They know that things will fall apart the minute they don't aprove all this....

We're just gonna sit back and observe this for now. I've no doubt that it will be coming to a city near me (we're in upstate NY). We're just going to keep on prepping as we have been doing, perhaps at a slighly faster pace tho. Grab the popcorn, it's gonna get reaaaalllll interesting!


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## Deacon Mike (May 23, 2007)

Deb862 said:


> I actually saw an interview just a bit ago with one of the protestors (a teacher I presume) who actually had the audacity to compare what she/they were doing to what just happened in Egypt! I was floored to say the least. How the heck can you compare people fighting for democratic freedom and to overthrow basically 30-year dictator to c*rying/protesting because you might have to pay for some health insurance and might lose some bennies?????*


What they're really angry about is the proposed loss of their collective bargaining rights, and rightly so.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Deb862 said:


> I actually saw an interview just a bit ago with one of the protestors (a teacher I presume) who actually had the audacity to compare what she/they were doing to what just happened in Egypt! I was floored to say the least. How the heck can you compare people fighting for democratic freedom and to overthrow basically 30-year dictator to crying/protesting because you might have to pay for some health insurance and might lose some bennies??????


Gee, that reminds me of Glenn Beck's predictions last year.

Honestly, it is looking more like a worldwide concerted effort to create chaos. I'm seeing too many things that couldn't possibly be coincidental.


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

JuliaAnn, the speaker or the legislative assembly leader sent out the cops to find the democrats, all 14 of them, and haul them back. One of the democrats, who was interviewed by a journalist, actually said "we're in hiding" and laughed...like it's some game to them. 

This was not a surprise. Gov. Walker campaigned with this as one of his issues. :shrug:

As to what's being done to get through this....people are opening up their homes to children who have parents who both work. There are child care centers (those that aren't out protesting) that will take drop ins...no reservation. They've added staff to take care of more children. 

Many people are talking about if the union is defeated in this, that they'll need to make cuts in their daily spending (duh), Most don't seem to understand that it's either make cuts in the various things the government spends on, or cut jobs. A LOT of jobs. We're 3BILLION in the hole here. this isn't NY where there's a large tax base, or a lot of major businesses. We have 2 large cities, and most of the countryside is land poor. LOTS of farmers. And up north...poor land. Grows Pine Trees and fish, and that's about all. 

Our house isn't affected by the union problem at all. Neither of us is in a union. But I'm thinking there are going to be a lot of people this summer that are ready to learn about gardening, canning, sewing. 

hmm. There was a woman on the news just now that was talking about finding out about home schooling because she's tired of paying taxes to teachers who don't care about her son. hmmm. Take that for what it's worth.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

staying out of down town madison , i got caught down there when joe biden was in town never again, witch was realy nothing but a cop every 100 yards every were down town.
so same as anytime there is demonstrating at the capitol we don't go there.

we have a freind who works in the office at a local school that also closed down their closure was a bit different the union reps went to the superintendents house and called the president of the school board over and a few others and asked that the school be shut down for the day. they are a very small school , parents were ferios she got chewed out all day long for somthing that she had nothing to do with , didn't want to see happen and most of the teachers didn't want to close school there they will be back in friday.
now personaly i think that was wrong , and it's possaible that technicaly they could be written up for breaking the open meetings laws as it would have been a closed meeting not open for parents and taxpayers to attend witch is only common for disciplinary action of students and such.


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## Welshmom (Sep 7, 2008)

I am a union member, and I've been on the capitol in the last few days.

I voted to take a pay freeze three years ago to avoid layoffs. I have had at least a dozen unpaid furlough days. 

These protests are not so much about what our paycheck is going to look like, but it is in fact about preserving the democratic process here in America. Nothing less.

Scott Walker did not even ask for one minute of sitting down and talking to negotiate any needed cuts or other budegetary actions. Nobody's said we wouldn't have made even further consessions. instead, he swooped in and proposed draconian legislation that has less to do with numbers than it has to do with the radical conservatives' agenda of union busting and gaining greater control of the government. And he insisted the bill be passed in less than a week. Before the official state budget numbers come out.

He has absolutely turned a blind eye and a deaf ear to the tens of thousands of people who have travelled to the capitol to be heard. His 'ammendment' had no ammendments to this bill at all.

We (my friends, family, neighbors, etc) see his behavior as tyrannical and absolutely un-democratic. i know Republicans who voted for him who are angry with his tactics. 
As for the Democratic senators who walked out, I believe very strongly that they are in fact doing their job. They are forced to take this drastic action to slow this process down and give their constituents time to be heard. We have a political process in this country, and it involves meeting and listening and compromise. 

If Walker is allowed to behave like a king, where will it stop? Even if you support his position this time around, is this how we want our governors behaving toward their citizens?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Wisconsin Ann said:


> . There was a woman on the news just now that was talking about finding out about home schooling because she's tired of paying taxes to teachers who don't care about her son. hmmm. Take that for what it's worth.


we home school but that doesn't keep you from paying taxes to support public schools it just means you get to take on all your own expenses and pay your taxes. but what does doing it your self with zero compensation get you priceless total control we have a very stong home school association here in wisconsin we have to file 1 form in october stating childs name the association has a copy of the form on their web site with exactly what fields of the form to fill out and nothing more , thats basicaly it then you have the freedom to educate in the way you feel best.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

It's sad that this has to boil down to pro-labor vs. anti-labor (liberal vs. conservative). Fact of the matter is, this is just the beginning. The world we live in isn't the same one our parents thrived in. The teat's gone dry... and until it get's 'freshened' again, it'll be dry. Anyone, public or private, union or free man, that believes their pensions and health insurance (wth is that???) will exist for long, after they retire, is in for a cup of bitter brew...

What is there to negotiate? To a Unionist, negotiating is code for paying me more for doing the same job. Ever once hear of a work action by a unionist, demanding lower wages, lower benefits??? I think not.

If I were the Governor, I'd follow through with what I promised....... lay off 6000 union employees... the ones closest to retirement, of course... and negate their pensions. Hey, just negate all of their pensions. Don't like the work, quit, and let someone who wants to work, for less, step in.

I read half a dozen articles on it this evening... and a teacher, making 60K was complaining... excuse the goat pellets out of me! 60K!!! and she want's more? Start firing em all...

Did I mention, the teat'd gone dry???

If we don't, as a country, nip the pension entitlement mentality in the bud, the nation as a whole will be impoverished, living on dirt, while the pensionists, with their millionaire lifestyles will be kings. [make half a mil a year in pension, that's close enough to millionaire for me].


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

who makes half a mil a year in pension - except maybe the very top cats in a business or union?

And Wisconsin folks - are you ready for pay reduction, or no employment should one or the other happen?


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

texican said:


> If we don't, as a country, nip the pension entitlement mentality in the bud, the nation as a whole will be impoverished, living on dirt, while the pensionists, with their millionaire lifestyles will be kings. [make half a mil a year in pension, that's close enough to millionaire for me].


That is not the only entitlement mentality we need to nip. I've seen way too many business that seem to think that it is the government's job to provide them with free land and free money. The trouble with Walker is that he wants to give away tax dollars to business and take money from public employees. I don't doubt for a second that Wisconsin is in deep fiscal doodoo but lets be fair here. No one group should bear the brunt of these cuts. Also this is the same guy who while was county executive of Milwaukee gave a bunch of his pals cooshy government jobs and by the looks of it he'll do the more of the same as governor. 

The guy is a coward as well, he was not willing to talk face to face with the people he is cutting and instead is intent on spending tax money to make sure his car has bullet proof glass. I was sorely disappointed (along with most of northern Wisconsin) that he won the Republican ticket for governor. Cuts will need to be made but he has set out to make the public employee a scape goat for all the monetary woes that has fallen upon the state. That is not factual nor is fair. He has been quite successful in manipulating certain segments of the population into hating public servants while drafting back door deals to privatize government services and giving away tax money to certain businesses.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the furlow days were a joke , my brother who has a state job that doen't get funded by the state has to take the days also , but my uncle who works for university of wisconsins finacial office says when you actualty run the numbers furlow days cost more than they saved , becuase they spent so much time making concetions with some of the strongest unions anywere in the united states and tring to do them in a way that kept the services the office or agency provided open that all the savings were eaten up.

so to some extent it is union breaking , not sure that is good or bad . the state teachers union is very strong and pours millions into campains very influential in politics , they have more pull than the teamsters in many ways.

we the people of wisconsin have also been working with a broken funding modle for public schools since 1993 maybe before but the current system started in 93 is my understanding it has most every district asking for local refurendums to exceed the spending caps every few years , i am sure it has done a lot to trim fat from local school budgets , but it now has schools borrowing and reborrowing each year creating a deficit of their own now. 

there are so many things broken , so many involved , some want to make concetions , some don't few can agree on what , when or how , in the end it will be sume muddled bits and peices of an ideal fix and maybe it will be enough to help fix the states deficits.

but in some manner it will be trying to bring state employment closer to the standards of todays private job compensation where 401ks have been hit hard , ther eis little or no matching , pentions are almost non existant , and raises have been small and far between for the last decade, were health insurance costs have skyrocketed and costs have been pushed more and more to the employee , and that if you there or if your looking at it from the outside it can be a very bitter pill to swallow.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Ernie said:


> New austerity measures have hit Wisconsin with the proposal of an emergency budget that's going to seriously slash some government employee salaries.
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/nati...fter-gov-unveils-emergency-budget-plan-2011-2
> 
> ...



Cope?
Fire & Police= 2nd amendment and don't be stupid with fire.
Road Crews= Carefully select my route to work and town, be mindful of the road conditions.
Teachers and Schools=Home educate now. Not an issue. Would ask for a refund on my property tax 
Unions protest= Stay away from the city
Civil Disturbances= Stay away from the city, exercise 2nd amendment right if needed.

I don't really have a community. I have a couple of neighbors....but we are pretty out there.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> we home school but that doesn't keep you from paying taxes to support public schools it just means you get to take on all your own expenses and pay your taxes. but what does doing it your self with zero compensation get you priceless total control we have a very stong home school association here in wisconsin we have to file 1 form in october stating childs name the association has a copy of the form on their web site with exactly what fields of the form to fill out and nothing more , thats basicaly it then you have the freedom to educate in the way you feel best.



www.hslda.com

Man, I wish I would get a discount on my taxes!!
3/4 of my 2k a year, goes to the public schools!!
It costs me about 300.00 a year to educate my kids at home.......


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## PrairieOaks (Jan 22, 2009)

I second Phil Johnson's message, balanced. I was a Republician till they caught religion, big business and war. The main problem with Walker is his approach-no discussion, it is my way or the highway, not the American way (or so I thought).


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> www.hslda.com
> 
> Man, I wish I would get a discount on my taxes!!
> 3/4 of my 2k a year, goes to the public schools!!
> It costs me about 300.00 a year to educate my kids at home.......


the way the wiscosin home schooling association explained it is you don't want any compensation from the state , because the second they give you a dollar or any special treatment then they can require reporting , testing maditory subjects , and most anything else you can think of 

local public schools want so baddly to get your home schooler onto their rolls to them your child is worth 10 grand each , and to have an already educated child who might be 1-3 grades ahead that likely wouldn't be a nucance or a behavior issue thats like little child shaped pots of money sitting in the back of the room being ignored while they deal with the behavior issue students who are behind in basic reading and math. they don't need to teach your student they can either keep up thru the mind numbing reppitition or you will teach them durring thier 2 hours of home work each night.

that said i know a lot of good teachers , good administrators ,who do a very good job for thier schools , but most of them agree you can provide a better quality of education yourself at home some of the teachers whos very own children now home school thier grand kids.

a freind of the family who taught for madison school district for 30 years told us when our youngest was born kep her out of this mess , the good kids get ignored so that they can deal with the behavior issues and every one looses so go private school or go home school.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> the way the wiscosin home schooling association explained it is you don't want any compensation from the state , because the second they give you a dollar or any special treatment then they can require reporting , testing maditory subjects , and most anything else you can think of


Here in In. I 'could' send my kids to school for "a class or two" if I wanted. But I simply don't want them in my business. And I don't want my kids exposed to the lunacy. There is not monetary benefit here either!



> local public schools want  so baddly to get your home schooler onto their rolls to them your child is worth 10 grand each , and to have an already educated child who might be 1-3 grades ahead that likely wouldn't be a nucance or a behavior issue thats like little child shaped pots of money sitting in the back of the room being ignored while they deal with the behavior issue students who are behind in basic reading and math. they don't need to tech your studen they can either keep up thru the mind numbing reppitition or you will teach them durring thier 2 hours of home work each night.


One of the many reasons why we home school. My oldest is gifted in math. She was LIGHT years ahead of the class. Straight A's.
They would not give her 'more challenging' work, though we begged for it, they made her 'help her classmates catch up'. Those classmates were 'foot ball players'. SO she was gossiped about and humiliated by the other kids. (6th grade) I told the teacher is was NOT my CHILD'S responsibility to teach. So she gave her a poster board project, about Pathagaris. AND THEN gave her a C for grammar errors. I told the teacher if she touched my kids "math" grade with this BS, C, that her an I would be dancing in the parking lot.
Wisely, she did not put the C on her perm. record. 



> that said i know a lot of good teachers , good administrators ,who do a very good job for thier schools , but most of them agree you can provide a better quality of education yourself at home some of the teachers whos very own children now home school thier grand kids.
> 
> a freind of the family who taught for madison school district for 30 years told us when our youngest was born kep her out of this mess , the good kids get ignored so that they can deal with the behavior issues and every one looses so go private school or go home school.


Yep. 3rd grade, my daughter was that good kid, and was made to sit at the table with 3 'bad' boys......because the teacher thought she would set a good example. I told the teacher she was coming home at night, a crying nervous wreck because of the screaming at her table all day (teacher screaming at the boys, boys screaming at each other). I told the teacher to please move her.
She did.
She took my daughters desk, turned it around so her back faced the classroom and she faced, touching the wall. TOTALLY singled her out, and it was obvious. My daughter loved it and begged me not to go in and "talk loudly" to the teacher........So I said nothing.
It was like that for 2 weeks.
Finally when the teacher didn't get my goat, she put my daughter back with the boys......to which I went back in, and she said "well do you prefer her to be segregated from everyone else on the other side of the room?" She was baiting me.
I told her if I had to come in that room one more time, she would regret it.

I do not miss those days. Not one single bit.


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## Deb862 (Jun 22, 2005)

texican said:


> It's sad that this has to boil down to pro-labor vs. anti-labor (liberal vs. conservative). Fact of the matter is, this is just the beginning. The world we live in isn't the same one our parents thrived in. The teat's gone dry... and until it get's 'freshened' again, it'll be dry. Anyone, public or private, union or free man, that believes their pensions and health insurance (wth is that???) will exist for long, after they retire, is in for a cup of bitter brew... What is there to negotiate?


Well said. As Boehner said yesterday "WE ARE BROKE!" The in-fighting will now begin to battle over the morsels that are left and to self-preserve, although I do believe the first place we should start cutting are the senators/representatives cushy salaries and bennies FIRST but notice how they don't bring this subject up. I agree....this is only the beginning....


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

It's really hard for me to feel too sorry for the teacher's unions. They've helped run states dry for many years now, protected the worst scum in their midst, and supported ideologies that have led to the destruction of the nation. Now they're feeling the pinch but they think they deserve a position on the lifeboat. This is what I've been talking about for years now ... certain people think they're immune to the ravages they've helped to inflict upon the rest of us.

Our liberator is coming, and it looks like national bankruptcy. I look forward to the day when the sheriff, the truant officer, the building inspector, the tax assessor, and the county ag commissioner can't afford to put enough gas in their vehicles to drive out to my place.


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

Interestingly, the new Gallup poll (18,000 households across the country) says unemployment is 10%, with at 9.6%...that's almost 20%. that are in trouble. (and it's the same as it was a year ago)

The government poll (yes, it's apoll..they call households across the country and ask "are you employed,etc." ) says 9%

This whole thing is a downward spiral. States are bankrupt and can't pay wages. They can't tax more because 20% of the people either aren' t working (and many of those are getting aid from the states...takin gMORE money from the state) or are just makin gends meet by working at low paying jobs..and those low paying jobs give the state LOW taxes, which usually end up as a refund. 

And now food and livestock feed is going through the roof. 

This summer is going to boil over. More states are going to have to cut wages and benefits to current workers...or those who are retired will be without anything, and the current workers will find themselves without jobs because the services are cut.


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

My SIL's a teacher and my MIL was a teacher for 32 years. 

My SIL is in the Chicago 'burbs and makes about $50,000 a year. In return she has to have a minimum of a Bachelor's degree, but she's gone back to school and is a few credits shy of a Master's Degree. Her Superintendent told her to hold off on that degree because it would buck her up a pay grade and once layoffs hit, they'll target her because of her salary. My SIL has been a teacher for 12 years. 

I have to wonder how many other fields pay so little to a college grad with 12years experience? Not very many. 

Everyone thinks teachers should be paid a pittance, but why? If they were JUST babysitting 20 kids at $2 an hour that's $40 an hour, $1600 a week. School years are 32 weeks, but add in another 4 weeks for getting the classroom in order before and after the school year for 36 weeks. (I know my SIL scours garage sales to get cheap classroom things like reading books and activities-all out of her own pocket.). That salary for JUST babysitting is $51,200. That's assuming they work just 40 hours a week. My SIL has to go to PTO meetings, all IEP (special ed) meetings, meetings with parents, inservices, special training and regular appointments with the Superintendent and other teachers on her grade level. Then they have to grade papers and do some lesson planning on their own time after school. Many times she's putting in 10-12 hour days. 

That $51,200 is JUST for babysitting-NOT teaching. Add in the fact that they have to deal with 20+ students coming from 20 different backgrounds with 20 different needs. They have to get the kids to learn all they can with what they have. They have to deal with behavior problems and they have to maintain a professional appearance, attitude and ability. 


Complain all you want, but I know many awesome teachers. Not all of them are as bad as some want you to believe. I think we're getting a great deal when we have a good teacher in the classroom.

I wonder how long the Governor would last in the classroom?


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## kabic (May 12, 2009)

PhilJohnson said:


> No one group should bear the brunt of these cuts.



Guess what, no one group is going to bare the brunt of the cuts. When this deal passes (and it will pass as soon as the Dems stop hiding and get back to work) the state is still going to have a budget shortfall. So State Employees are not the only ones going to bare the brunt, they are just the first. More cuts will be comming.

The state is just catching up to private business.

Harley conssessions http://www.jsonline.com/business/102805289.html
Mercury Marine conssessions http://www.jsonline.com/business/57411682.html


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> My SIL's a teacher and my MIL was a teacher for 32 years.
> 
> My SIL is in the Chicago 'burbs and makes about $50,000 a year. In return she has to have a minimum of a Bachelor's degree, but she's gone back to school and is a few credits shy of a Master's Degree. Her Superintendent told her to hold off on that degree because it would buck her up a pay grade and once layoffs hit, they'll target her because of her salary. My SIL has been a teacher for 12 years.
> 
> I have to wonder how many other fields pay so little to a college grad with 12years experience? Not very many.


Do you have any idea how many college grads are working 10-12 hours a day waiting tables right now?

As for "aweome" teachers ... Wisconsin is ranked 3rd in the nation by independent researchers, so clearly they aren't doing too bad. However Illinois is ranked 13th, so your awesome SIL needs to crank up the awesomeness.

Every day I have to compete. I have to produce a tastier tomato, a fatter lamb, or a better knife. I don't have to compete so hard in my off-farm job because there's only about 9 of us nationwide who do what I do. When there's 10,000 who can do it then I'll have to really struggle to keep up.

Like others have said ... the public sector is just now experiencing what the private sector has had to deal with for years. And they're squealing like you'd expect a piglet to squeal when you pull it away from the teat.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

KnowOneSpecial said:


> My SIL's a teacher and my MIL was a teacher for 32 years.
> 
> My SIL is in the Chicago 'burbs and makes about $50,000 a year. In return she has to have a minimum of a Bachelor's degree, but she's gone back to school and is a few credits shy of a Master's Degree. Her Superintendent told her to hold off on that degree because it would buck her up a pay grade and once layoffs hit, they'll target her because of her salary. My SIL has been a teacher for 12 years.
> 
> I have to wonder how many other fields pay so little to a college grad with 12years experience? Not very many.


What sort of retirement benefits do they get?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

I see they sent in the SEIU thugs to keep the rabble roused.
I heard last night that sevedal teachers dragged students with them to the "protest" to beef up the crowd.
Hope they get in trouble for that.
If someone drug my kid to a union arranged riot, I'd see them fired.


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## jerrwhy (Jan 12, 2010)

I'll offer my two cents, adjusted for inflation of course. 

I've been a public school teacher, I taught Special Education; specifically children with behavior and emotional disorders. Whether you want to believe it or not I worked hard. There were days where I was exhausted after dealing with some of those children and their problems. However, I never moaned or whined about the pay (which was decent, not great, but fairly decent), benefits, or other perks because the reality of it was this: I was required to work 35 hours a week, we had a great insurance plan, paid a modest amount into our retirement, and had a good chunk of time off because we were only required to work 186 days a year.

I've read several articles where the demonstrators cried that this wasn't democratic because the union wasn't brought into the process. I say poppy-cock; the Governor introduced the bill to the state legislature for them to debate and vote on. If the Wisconsin state constitution mandates that the unions be part of the legislative process I'd like to see it; otherwise it sounds like he followed the democratic process. 

I've read several comments about people moaning and several articles that he offered tax breaks and incentives to businesses. The economic reality is that lowering taxes attracts capital, and raising them causeâs capital flight. Compare California to Texas; there's a reason that California's economy is declining and Texas's is growing. 

The reality of the situation is that this isn't a left/right, democratic/republican issue; it's simple mathematics. The money isn't there. 

We're broke! States are in a quandary because there simply isn't enough money, and you cannot raise taxes when your tax base is not only broke as well but also shrinking.

Local, state, and the federal government cannot continue to expand in size and scope, increase salaries, and provide more services when you're in a period of inflation, stagnant wages, and high unemployment which continues to increase. The numbers don't lie.

Employment is a privilege, not a right. My wife is employed with the state of Florida and we're undergoing the same budget nightmare here. However, both my wife and I fell that if she has to take a small hit on her check and retirement to keep her job then so be it.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

The unions don't really care about the workers, what's getting them riled up is they don't want to lose any power.
Unions are power for the left wing, not the people, that's why the Democrats ran and hid.


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## forfreedom (Dec 3, 2008)

Welshmom said:


> I am a union member, and I've been on the capitol in the last few days.
> 
> I voted to take a pay freeze three years ago to avoid layoffs. I have had at least a dozen unpaid furlough days.
> 
> ...


Why should there be unions at all? Why not let free market to decide pay scale, benefits and number of workers needed? Since when unions equate to democracy?


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

jerrwhy said:


> The reality of the situation is that this isn't a left/right, democratic/republican issue; it's simple mathematics. The money isn't there.
> 
> We're broke! States are in a quandary because there simply isn't enough money, and you cannot raise taxes when your tax base is not only broke as well but also shrinking.
> 
> Local, state, and the federal government cannot continue to expand in size and scope, increase salaries, and provide more services when you're in a period of inflation, stagnant wages, and high unemployment which continues to increase. The numbers don't lie.


Well said!!!! :clap::clap::clap:


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## Deb862 (Jun 22, 2005)

jerrwhy said:


> Employment is a privilege, not a right. My wife is employed with the state of Florida and we're undergoing the same budget nightmare here. However, both my wife and I fell that if she has to take a small hit on her check and retirement to keep her job then so be it.


I couldn't agree more. This is not really about how "awesome" we think teachers are at all. I personally thinking teachers should be paid more than politicians LOL and that there are many many teachers doing an excellent job. HOWEVER, I am not a teacher and have had to take a pay cut and pay more for health benefits and have NO retirement fund within the past year so I seriously cannot for the life of me understand why they are bemoaning this so much. I say, join the crowd! We've all taken some hits, now it's just your turn!


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## jlrbhjmnc (May 2, 2010)

While at one time it was needed, since 1960 collective bargaining has ruined manufacturing and education in the United States. It has become the antithesis of "democracy." Today it means, "We demand, you pay. And we don't care if it eventually kills off our jobs."


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

PrairieOaks said:


> I second Phil Johnson's message, balanced. I was a Republician till they caught religion, big business and war. The main problem with Walker is his approach-no discussion, it is my way or the highway, not the American way (or so I thought).


From what i understand the teachers haven't had a contract for 15 monthes. Which is why the govenor said he has nothing else to bargain with.

For being teachers they don't seem to smart.
parents are tired of paying for our kids not to be educated.
We need to be able to fire bad teachers.
Obama wants to give more money to a failing education system.


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## sunshinytraci (Oct 20, 2007)

It's not very much fun, watching our nation go broke.


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## KnowOneSpecial (Sep 12, 2010)

Txsteader said:


> What sort of retirement benefits do they get?


They have access to an IMRF (IL Municiple Retireement Fund). It's a standard pension program like a 401(k). I believe that for a long time teachers couldn't participate in a public 401k program so the IMRF was created. 


As for her "awesomeness", Ernie....I do believe that 13th is still better than average. Besides, her school is in the top 2% in the state. I think she's doing pretty darn good. 

I still think it's wrong to go back on a contract. It's like giving your word and then breaking your vow. Renegotiate a better contract or do something other than totally wiping it off the map.


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## Welshmom (Sep 7, 2008)

forfreedom said:


> Why should there be unions at all? Why not let free market to decide pay scale, benefits and number of workers needed? Since when unions equate to democracy?


I never said or implied that unions equal democracy. What I did say is that democracy depends on elected officials paying attention to constituents. Sitting down, meeting, listening. That's democracy. When tens of thousands of your constituents say they want something different, a representative of the electorate listens. A king/dictator doesn't care. 

Interestingly, today the union leaders announced they may be willing to concede the pay reforms he has proposed, as long as he leaves the right to bargain alone. And guess what? he said he isn't interested! Proves two points: union members are not impossible to work with, and this is about union busting more than it is about saving $$ to Walker. 

It really is sad to see plain working (and unemployed) folks fighting eachother because one's job has health care benefits and another's doesn't, or they have to pay more than their neighbor, etc. 

Just remember that the insurance companies are making billions of dollars in profit every year. The Walker bill and others like it are ensuring the Wal-mart-ization of American society. If the Walkers of this era are given carte blanch, we will suffer and the fat cats will get ever fatter.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I have no dog in this hunt...

President Obama stated, after winning handily, that elections have consequences. We Won, You Lost. It was O's way, because he won.

The folks of WI voted this guy in... the election had consequences... the losers must pay. I'm thinking that the unionized hands to a T stood by and supported his opponent.

Does anyone here doubt there's a reckoning ahead? Someone mentioned a cliff up ahead, and you can race over the cliff, or stop. If your expecting some white knight to come in and build a bridge across that cliff..... well, I have some derivatives and cdo's I'd like to offer you, guaranteed...

The partys gone on too long... the cops are on their way... we can turn the music down, or wait for the knock on the door...


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## PrairieOaks (Jan 22, 2009)

Most of the time I read the news about issues like this taking place somewhere else and do not know the local facts, this one is different. I live in Wisconsin and an elected County supervisor so deal with the state health insurance program, the retirement system and the six labor unions within the County. I understand the real facts and the hard numbers. But, if one listens/watches Fox only you will think the union state workers are pond scum, and if one listens/watches MSNBC only you will think the union state workers are being screwed. The state does have money problems, no question about it, should all state workers pay more into health and retirement, yes. But, should additional give away programs to corporations be started at this time, no. I have friends who are both pro and anti-Walker, friends who work for the state, schools and counties and who work in the private sector. The general view from all is-all government workers should pay more for health and retirement, collective bargaining needs to remain and Walker approach is not the way Wisconsin does government. My additional comment this is a Wisconsin issue, The Club for Growth, the Koch Bros., Obama, Palan, Beck, Jess Jackson, etc should all take themselves and their money and go home. We can solve it. May be messey process but it should be our process.


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## jerrwhy (Jan 12, 2010)

Welshmom, I'm sorry if I sound like I'm picking on you, but I cannot let this one go.



Welshmom said:


> I never said or implied that unions equal democracy. What I did say is that democracy depends on elected officials paying attention to constituents. Sitting down, meeting, listening. That's democracy. When tens of thousands of your constituents say they want something different, a representative of the electorate listens. A king/dictator doesn't care.


Your elected officials cannot sit down and meet with you and listen because they fled the state, they turned their back on democracy. The governor isn't a king or dictator, but some quick fact checking revealed that he received about 60% of the vote. To put it another way he has the support of 3 out of every 5 people. A democracy is majority rule, it does not have to acquiesce to the demands of any minority. 



Welshmom said:


> Interestingly, today the union leaders announced they may be willing to concede the pay reforms he has proposed, as long as he leaves the right to bargain alone. And guess what? he said he isn't interested! Proves two points: union members are not impossible to work with, and this is about union busting more than it is about saving $$ to Walker.


See the above; he has the support of the people.



Welshmom said:


> It really is sad to see plain working (and unemployed) folks fighting each other because one's job has health care benefits and another's doesn't, or they have to pay more than their neighbor, etc.
> 
> Just remember that the insurance companies are making billions of dollars in profit every year. The Walker bill and others like it are ensuring the Wal-mart-ization of American society. If the Walkers of this era are given carte blanch, we will suffer and the fat cats will get ever fatter.


It doesn't matter what insurance companies make, or what Walmart's profit margin is, or what some fat cat banker brings in for a bonus. They can be 10/100/1000 times what they are now; you essentially get your money from the tax payers in Wisconsin. In effect your union is asking those plain working folks to make an even greater sacrifice than they already have simply so you don't have to make a sacrifice. And if Wisconsin is like other parts of the country then people have already given up a lot. 

Pointing out the profits of a company, or what workers are doing in the private sector, or what the governor is, or is not doing doesn't change the math. And the reality is that Wisconsin has a substation deficit. Now I realize that you're just trying to protect your interest and I cannot fault you for that. However, it doesn't change the math, and I'm afraid that if you guys don't start making some sacrifices now to preserve what you have then you might just loose a lot more in the not to distant future.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Yes, it will be substantially difficult in the coming days. I would like to ask that everyone focus on why the states and the Feds are pushing this "austerity" on the people. The teachers did not drain the coffers, nor did those in the other unions. Those that have caused this strife that we all will go through have been handed the largest transfer of wealth in the history of mankind. This, along with the housing scam is why states and municipalities are in deep do-do right now, not because teachers made high salaries or because someone gets a pittance from the government. The people in Wisconsin, and now Ohio are the first of the Americans that are being directly impacted. Others will be thrown into the pot and more of this unrest will come to America. It is all but unavoidable.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

If I can wade through all the blood shed by the bleeding hearts for a moment ...

The unions in Wisconsin are being bankrolled in these protests and work stoppages by none other than Obama's "Organizing for America" group, using money left over from his 2008 campaign. The unions are bussing people in to support the protests from out of state. Obama himself is calling for Gov. Walker to back down. 

Have the states effectively lost the ability to self-govern? If the states become no more than shell legislatures, are we in effect not ruled entirely by central government? Is America becoming just one large homogenous collective state from sea to shining sea?

Wisconsin is broke. The protestors can rally and demonstrate all they want, but the state cannot continue to pay them what they demand, or even what they've been promised in the past. Almost every state of the union is in this situation, though few other states have reached the point of admitting it. There are ways to continue this little charade ... they could raise taxes on the citizens like Illinois did. Do Wisconsin residents want to face a 70% rise in income taxes? Wisconsin has never been one of the best paying states. Do the folks there who are still employed want to shoulder more burden to support a small minority who receive benefits in excess of what the civilian sector gets? Sure, the teachers work hard (some of them) but so do the taxi drivers, the trashmen, the dairymen, etc. 

The states don't have the authority to print their own currency, otherwise they could keep the game of musical chairs going as long as the federal government has.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

The united states is rated 14th in education. It seems to me the teachers should go back to school and get their job right before telling the govener how to do his.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I'm beginning to think every issue in the universe boils down to the two different camps... the self reliant and the reliant. Those who support private initiative, and those who support public initiative. One side can exist without the other, the other side cannot exist without the other. Both sides despise the other.

Corporations (using that term broadly to include everyone, everything, that actually produces goods and services.... the productive class) generate profits. Government takes those profits and takes their share, and redistribute that profit, amongst the unproductive classes. If corporations don't make a profit, they go out of business... if government loses money, they simply seek to take more profit away from the productive class... or borrow it (an indirect tax on the productive sector, as the profits they've gained are worth less and less, with devalued currency).

Once the Corporations decide they cannot exist anymore under the heavy hand of the Leeching Class (Govt.), they have two options... go out of business, or seek more friendly climates.

The Leeches bemoan the fact that their Hosts have abandoned them. To make things right, the Leeches do not tell their once beloved Hosts, "we'll take less, and be nicer to you", but "come back, it's your patriotic duty, to feed us however much we want, till it hurts".

It's to the point in this country, the only jobs that can't be exported are service jobs, and public employee jobs. And now, we have the last gasp of the SEIU and Public Sector Unions bemoaning the fact that they're on the firing line.

I know it's not nice, and not fair, and all sorts of other touchy feely concerns, but the facts are facts. Some have mentioned MN giving corporations tax relief, as that's something evil. Tell ya what... Tax em more, and give your public union hands whatever they want. See how long it takes for the last Corps in the state, to Leave, for friendlier climates... such as Texas or China. Kill the Host, and the Leeches starve. I feel for teachers, park rangers, police, etc. that are struggling along with their jobs, in Mn and elsewhere. Struggling along with nice pay, job security, vs no job, no nothing... like ~19% of the general population. (I know, the 'official' unemployment rate is ~9%... but I figure it's at least twice that... with so many out of bennies, or in positions like me... self employed, and not eligible for bennies, ever)

I'm thinking there'd be plenty of 'scabs' that'd love to take 80% or even 50% of what the union hands were/are making.

I see nothing on the horizon that doesn't include gnashing of teeth, when it comes to public and private unions, health care for them, and golden pensions. Or, for that matter, ANY one's pensions. If you can't walk out your door, and see your pension, you're trusting in someone else to be there for you. I walk or drive by my pension fund daily.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

That so true.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Whew. Things are going to be ok. Jesse Jackson has flown in to help.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

The governor must be shuddering in his boots because the 'big guns' are now being called out..............


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Did you know that Wisconsin has a long history of progressive/social roots? 

http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/turningpoints/tp-036/?action=more_essay

Read about "The Wisconsin Idea".

Duly note, as has been repeated, that "Progressiveism" is neither "Republican" nor "Democrat", unfortunately, both of those parties have been co opted by the progressives.

All that to say... I'm not surprised about Wisconsin.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

They have doctors there passing out fake doctors excuses to the union teachers.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

I have somewhat of a paradox in my world. I am a Republican who's party has deserted him. I read in the Bible where Jesus says the we should provide for those who have less. I am two and a half years into a journey where I was laid off at 49 years old and have been underemployed since. Believing that I could surely get another high paying job to replace the high paying job that I had, I spent my emergency funds to keep afloat initially, there weren't much 401K funds left thanks to Enron. Once those ran low, I did any job available from day labor to driving a cab to being a contractor. I have kept myself solvent. My point here is what will evolve from what is happening here? The preppers will survive any hardship except one that destroy much or all of the planet's surface. That I would bet on. It's just, what will the remnant be, will it be a scattered network of those that are locked and loaded with their stocks supplying themselves and to heck with everyone else? I don't know, I was raised in the mindset of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and even though I'm new to this premise [prepping] I am confident that I can survive, there will be many that do not if the commercial power goes out. This thread seems to explore the two sides that were mentioned earlier. The biggest problem that I think that I will have is turning others away or rather, being faced with the decision where I will have "turn them away" or "help them" as choices. We are experiencing the Chinese curse, - May you live in interesting times.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

SquashNut said:


> They have doctors there passing out fake doctors excuses to the union teachers.



Can I just say:

What an AMAZING example teachers and doctors are setting for the 'children' they CLAIM they are 'doing this for'???

Lying, getting others to lie for you, calling names? What happened to the "core values" every school claims to have?
Honesty, Character, Respect, Dignity?

Oh yeah, that's right.....do as I say, not as I do.....got it.

What a crock of spit.
Kids can see RIGHT through the BSpit. Right through it.


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

Shine said:


> I have somewhat of a paradox in my world. I am a Republican who's party has deserted him. I read in the Bible where Jesus says the we should provide for those who have less.


In what way has the Republican Party deserted you? Jesus says we are supposed to provide for those who have less, not delegate that to the government.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Shine said:


> I have somewhat of a paradox in my world. I am a Republican who's party has deserted him. I read in the Bible where Jesus says the we should provide for those who have less. I am two and a half years into a journey where I was laid off at 49 years old and have been underemployed since. Believing that I could surely get another high paying job to replace the high paying job that I had, I spent my emergency funds to keep afloat initially, there weren't much 401K funds left thanks to Enron. Once those ran low, I did any job available from day labor to driving a cab to being a contractor. I have kept myself solvent. My point here is what will evolve from what is happening here? The preppers will survive any hardship except one that destroy much or all of the planet's surface. That I would bet on. It's just, what will the remnant be, will it be a scattered network of those that are locked and loaded with their stocks supplying themselves and to heck with everyone else? I don't know, I was raised in the mindset of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and even though I'm new to this premise [prepping] I am confident that I can survive, there will be many that do not if the commercial power goes out. This thread seems to explore the two sides that were mentioned earlier. The biggest problem that I think that I will have is turning others away or rather, being faced with the decision where I will have "turn them away" or "help them" as choices. We are experiencing the Chinese curse, - May you live in interesting times.


Because one day you'll realize that, unless you turn them away, you're going to be in the same situation as those who've come begging....and then YOUR family will starve. And I don't think that's what Christ meant for us to do.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Please read the following in a monotone voice...
deaconjim writes:
In what way has the Republican Party deserted you? Jesus says we are supposed to provide for those who have less, not delegate that to the government.

The Republican Party used to be strong on Personal Liberty and Unalienable rights and establishing the people as sovereign. The old style Republican values that I grew up to understand abhorred corruption and instilled a sense of serving your neighbors and your community. Now they are ever restricting the liberty of Americans and taking away our rights, can you say "Free Speech Zones"? The Republicans have sold out to the corporations and bankers just as the Democrats have done. I still retain my "old Republican Value set" but this neo-con party is not mine. However, I am completely in agreement with the fact that my contributions to others should not be a "forced" event that takes my "good will" out of my hands and then controls the funds somewhat behind a veil.

Txsteader writes:
Because one day you'll realize that, unless you turn them away, you're going to be in the same situation as those who've come begging....and then YOUR family will starve. And I don't think that's what Christ meant for us to do.

Thanks for the observation, I think that it will be quite a balancing act, I hope for the guidance of the Good Lord when this eventuality manifests itself. I'll go with that...


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

Shine said:


> Please read the following in a monotone voice...
> deaconjim writes:
> In what way has the Republican Party deserted you? Jesus says we are supposed to provide for those who have less, not delegate that to the government.
> 
> ...


I guess I'm confused as to what point you were trying to make. You followed your statement regarding the GOP with a statement about taking care of the poor. I can understand your feeling that the GOP has abandoned its conservative values, but I fail to see how that relates to your calling to provide for the less fortunate.

Some elements of the GOP, in particular the leadership, have strayed from the cause of conservatism, but many of us are working hard to change that. If you are committed, welcome to the fight. If you think the cause is lost, please tell me, what alternatives are available?


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

SquashNut said:


> They have doctors there passing out fake doctors excuses to the union teachers.


Here's a link for that
http://www.breitbart.tv/breitbart-gets-a-doctors-note-in-madison/


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Friends -
this is turning a bit too much this party or that party almost political thread.

as most of you know, I try to keep most of that political party bashing stuff out of here - so we can talk and not be crazy bashing.

This event is really important, as are the associated events.

We have to watch and learn the happenings, and learn what we may have to adjust to and work around, or help not have happen around us.

So, I'm asking - please do not go in the manner of the Political forum, then I'll have to virtually jump up and down and be crazy mod. But, this is too important to ignore.

Help keep it in this forum's manner. Thanks


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Shine said:


> Thanks for the observation, I think that it will be quite a balancing act, I hope for the guidance of the Good Lord when this eventuality manifests itself. I'll go with that...


Naturally, we're going to provide for our immediate family first. My personal goal is to be able to provide for extended family and friends, if possible. We would have to be in a very dire situation for me to turn away anyone who was hungry. Hopefully, as long as we have the ability to garden, we'll never have to make that decision; we'll always have something to share.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Thanks Txsteader, that pretty much sums it up. I will often go with less to insure that those that have very little have some. To deaconjim, I have an answer to your question but will accede to the moderator and the wishes that have been stated. For some reason, it appears that my account does not have the rights to post in the Politics forum, maybe it is because I am new to this forum.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Oi vey. Have y'all seen this?

http://www.heartlandrevolution.com/Blog/

http://action.seiu.org/page/s/solidarityaction

Apparently the SEIU is organizing "solidarity protests" across many other heartland states to protest what's happening in Wisconsin. This is being primarily funded by "Organizing for America", which was Obama's campaign arm from 2008 and is using his leftover campaign funds.

It looks to me as if our government has deliberately set a match to this brushfire. Why? To what purpose? What possible good can come out of having service-shutdowns and massive protests across all of heartland America other than some sort of twisted payback for the Democrats being thrown out of office?

I'm beginning to think more and more about what Forerunner said recently ... about how politics is the red cape and we should pay more attention to the matador.

SOMETHING is moving here. Can you feel it?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

well all politicing and such aside Did i not say there would be a band , I have not confirmed bratworst yet but the Oak Street Ramblers played the other day for protesters what i suspect is their biggest audience ever. 

Pete Seeger and I may not agree on everything but , non-violent protest with good music is one thing we can agree on.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Ernie said:


> Oi vey. Have y'all seen this?
> 
> http://www.heartlandrevolution.com/Blog/
> 
> ...


You need to go post this over on Patt's thread about the Koch Bros. funding the move to destroy the unions. 

ETA: Oops, sorry Angie. Just realized this was more political than S&EP. My bad.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I'm trying to be less involved in politics, not more. I realize that my opinions are the minority in America today and there's very little use in arguing it with the other side. 

The only reason I'm following politics these days is so I know which way to jump.


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Ernie said:


> The only reason I'm following politics these days is so I know which way to jump.


I know _that's_ right! :run:


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Guys - you know I'm trying to keep the fine line between commenting on what is making our world, and the just nonsense bashing that I think is all that happens elsewhere and gets no where.

And Shine - you'll have to be here awhile and be helpfully posting before the site owner's criteria is met to turn on the General Chat/Political forums. They are not the reason for the site, but an extra - so to speak.


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## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

Angie's had a busy day today


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> They are not the reason for the site, but *an extra *- so to speak.


Or a punishment?


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

That whole deal makes me ill. I work in a school system, pay in to the pension system, pay a good chunk of my insurance and get paid less than if I were in the private sector. The benefits are a (were) part of my pay. Supposedly it looks like the pension plan is still strong in NY.
Hope so as this is decades of my life. I have made concessions and it looks like more are coming. I would rather loose a little than all of it. I hope this doesn't spread to other states as I would not strike.

The vultures are sweeping in on this situation and it is, imo, making a huge divide in the whole issue. I think there is going to be a huge backlash against the strikers. I personally do not support the actions. Jesse Jackson is a vulture and if he is there there will be others coming. Just one more straw
The storm clouds are getting darker. Some of the behavior coming out of these teachers is deplorable. Sad reflection on many good people.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Going back to the whole Wisconsin premise, here people are disputing the idea to initiate "austerity" amongst those who had no part in the reason that there is a budget crunch. I do not understand why people would stand on the side of a government entity that will bring harm to the people rather than to assess the problem onto those who have wrought the budget crisis. Sure, the budget in years past could have been better administered but that is not what is causing the crisis now. I don't understand why people are against those who struck a bargain, fair and square, and now those that speak for them are selling them out. Why look down one's proverbial nose at these people instead of asking why those that ultimately caused this be responsible for what they have done?


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## jerrwhy (Jan 12, 2010)

Shine said:


> Going back to the whole Wisconsin premise, here people are disputing the idea to initiate "austerity" amongst those who had no part in the reason that there is a budget crunch. I do not understand why people would stand on the side of a government entity that will bring harm to the people rather than to assess the problem onto those who have wrought the budget crisis.


Does it matter who wrought it? Because in truth we all responsible in some way, be it large or small for the fiscal mess we're in.

Assigning blame, pointing fingers, calling others out, critizing, bemoaning, ranting etc... doesn't change the *mathematical outcome*. No matter how much you assign responsibility, or blame on the crisis that doesn't change the formula.

What's the difference between the Wisconsin State Government causing some harm to its employees, or the State Employees Union causing some harm to the taxpayers. Again I refer back to the mathematics of the issue, the tax payer base is larger, and frankly they pay the taxes. Should the minority acquiesce to the majority, or vice versa?



Shine said:


> Sure, the budget in years past could have been better administered but that is not what is causing the crisis now. I don't understand why people are against those who struck a bargain, fair and square, and now those that speak for them are selling them out. Why look down one's proverbial nose at these people instead of asking why those that ultimately caused this be responsible for what they have done?


The budget shenanigans of years past are precisely why the state of Wisconsin, and a lot of other states are in the fix they're in. A lot of states, and the federal government made a lot of assumptions regarding the way they would pay for things using a model that was unsustainable. The various unions were all the more willing to jump on the wagon in years past and tried to ride it as long as they could and take advantage of it. Well, now they have to take some responsibility for it as well. 

Personally, I don't have a dog in Wisconsin's fight, but I do think the various public unions are shooting themselves in the foot. As I've said before nobody wants to see their pay go down, but it's better to loose a little than loose everything.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Ernie, et al....

The absolute best response when anyone sets a match to your brush fire is simply to refuse to burn.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Ernie!!!!
Help me!!!!

I have questions.......on another thread!!
I have asked on 2 separate forums, and cannot get 'direct answers'.
Thanks


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Is it your question as to why the lawmakers are in hiding? I'll try to answer that one.

The governor does have the authority to compel them by force to come sit in the legislature. The refusing to present a quorum is an old trick (not just in Wisconsin) and in the past when this has happened, governors have even sent state troopers to round up the delegates and haul them back. By not being found they are removing that as even a possibility.

I couldn't sift through that garbage to find your other questions, but if you ask them here I'll try to answer them in a non-political manner. We can address actions without attacking the motivations, perhaps, if we all restrain ourselves.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Ernie said:


> Is it your question as to why the lawmakers are in hiding? I'll try to answer that one.
> 
> The governor does have the authority to compel them by force to come sit in the legislature. The refusing to present a quorum is an old trick (not just in Wisconsin) and in the past when this has happened, governors have even sent state troopers to round up the delegates and haul them back. By not being found they are removing that as even a possibility.
> 
> I couldn't sift through that garbage to find your other questions, but if you ask them here I'll try to answer them in a non-political manner. We can address actions without attacking the motivations, perhaps, if we all restrain ourselves.


Bless you!
So they left......why? Because they don't want to vote? Can't they just vote no? Why run?

And if they broke a law, what law did they break for officers to 'pick them up'? And once picked up THEN what happens to them?

And on a "emergency prep" spirit of things......how would a group of crazed teachers cause a disruption?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

They left because (they believe) they'll be outvoted on the budget issue. During a vote, a certain number of legislators have to be present, otherwise a vote cannot happen. By fleeing the state it prevents the vote from happening. It's a tactic.

I do not know if they broke a law or not, but state troopers are under the direction of the governor. If he says bring them back then they can at least attempt to bring them back. Sort of like hauling you in for questioning, even though you may not technically be placed under arrest.

The rampaging school marms are not particularly the issue in Madison, though they have caused some pretty serious disruptions so far. Ask all the parents who have had to miss work or pay extra for childcare because their kids aren't in school. The issue is that these protests draw in other more violent organizations like the SEIU. Already there has been a craigslist notice posted that told SEIU union thugs to attack Tea Party protestors if they show up as part of a counter-protest.

Things just tend to escalate out of control in a protest like this. Don't get me wrong. I think the protestors have every right to protest if they don't like the way things are going. However that doesn't mean I want to come out of my favorite bagel shop suddenly surrounded by a mob and teargas.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Ernie said:


> They left because (they believe) they'll be outvoted on the budget issue. During a vote, a certain number of legislators have to be present, otherwise a vote cannot happen. By fleeing the state it prevents the vote from happening. It's a tactic.


The quorum issue. Ok I understand that!



> I do not know if they broke a law or not, but state troopers are under the direction of the governor. If he says bring them back then they can at least attempt to bring them back. Sort of like hauling you in for questioning, even though you may not technically be placed under arrest.


So if the haul them back, then the quorum is present, and then everyone can go to work....
Seems this approach is pretty immature?



> The rampaging school marms are not particularly the issue in Madison, though they have caused some pretty serious disruptions so far. Ask all the parents who have had to miss work or pay extra for childcare because their kids aren't in school. The issue is that these protests draw in other more violent organizations like the SEIU. Already there has been a craigslist notice posted that told SEIU union thugs to attack Tea Party protestors if they show up as part of a counter-protest.


So a group of grumpy teachers, can turn into a mob of folks who have no dog in the fight, but just love the chaos and violence....hence it can turn into a very volatile situation....



> Things just tend to escalate out of control in a protest like this. Don't get me wrong. I think the protestors have every right to protest if they don't like the way things are going. However that doesn't mean I want to come out of my favorite bagel shop suddenly surrounded by a mob and teargas.


I whole heartedly agree.

Thank you so much for explaining this. I get so lost in the "name calling" and mumbo jumbo. You have put this in simple terms I totally understand.

This is why it makes sense to have my CCP, an emergency kit in my car, a full tank (or at least a 1/2) at all times....planned 'emergency' routes, knowing where things are going down, being aware of my surroundings, and keeping stores incase I can't get to one!!


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

jerrwhy said:


> Does it matter who wrought it?


Well I guess it doesn't matter. I guess it would be OK to serve some time for those that murder and commit all those crimes we hear about. I mean, we're all responsible for that too aren't we? If not, how can you suggest that those that made billions off of selling Securities and Derivatives by getting the Credit Ratings people to say that those "junk bonds" were good as gold. And when *their* SHTF scenario hit, TPTB ponied up our futures to make good on their bad bets. Now the jobs are scarce, the middle and lower classes of people are forced to suffer the pain. The stock market is booming so those that have the money are making even more money without producing diddly-squat. AND, the banks that received our "future" are not investing it back into this country, they're investing in other currencies and other packages that do little to help America and some have the power to harm Americans. Does it matter? You may answer that for yourself.

"Assigning blame, pointing fingers, calling others out, critizing, bemoaning, ranting etc... doesn't change the *mathematical outcome*. No matter how much you assign responsibility, or blame on the crisis that doesn't change the formula."

Hmmm... Maybe if we assessed the proper blame and assigned the proper punishments after the thorough investigations were completed, maybe, just maybe, it might not happen again, ya think? [...he said in a conversational tone...]

"What's the difference between the Wisconsin State Government causing some harm to its employees, or the State Employees Union causing some harm to the taxpayers. Again I refer back to the mathematics of the issue, the tax payer base is larger, and frankly they pay the taxes. Should the minority acquiesce to the majority, or vice versa?"

Sorry, I don't understand what you're suggesting here.[not an insult] People are people, once they are categorized as this person and that person, it makes it easier to divest them of their humanity. Are you saying that all government people or all within the educational disciplines are without any sort of humanity ordered value? 

"The budget shenanigans of years past are precisely why the state of Wisconsin, and a lot of other states are in the fix they're in. A lot of states, and the federal government made a lot of assumptions regarding the way they would pay for things using a model that was unsustainable. The various unions were all the more willing to jump on the wagon in years past and tried to ride it as long as they could and take advantage of it. Well, now they have to take some responsibility for it as well. "

"Precisely" ->??? When you strip the state governments of a big portion of their income, namely the taxes that they have lost for the properties that are sitting empty then you have short changed the argument. I don't want to talk about whether or not taxes are valid or are not. I have some anti-tax views myself. Are you a saying that the State Governments have matched the Federal Government in their spending habits?

"Personally, I don't have a dog in Wisconsin's fight, but I do think the various public unions are shooting themselves in the foot. As I've said before nobody wants to see their pay go down, but it's better to loose a little than loose everything."

But, if someone's pay is shorted because someone else cheated the system, will you too accept a reduction in your pay, your pension, your ability to bid on jobs, etc.. ->?

The whole fight is coming to ahead, IMO because the Government has taken the largest transfer of wealth in the history of mankind and has laid it in the laps of the ones who least need it. Also, those that least needed it are, in a large part, the ones that caused it.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

If the money is gone, it's gone. You don't get full pay and full benefits if there is no way to pay for them, even if you think that none of it is your fault.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

It's not really their fault. They got on a gravy train that had been running full speed before they were even born. Only the gravy train is running out of steam. Maybe someone stole a lot of the gravy, or maybe all of the gravy was fictional to begin with. Don't know and it doesn't matter.

What matters is that we awake to the reality of the situation. What's going on in Wisconsistan is only the beginning. Pretty soon all the other riders on the gravy train are going to wonder why it hasn't pulled into the station. Some of them are going to go on about their business. Some of them are going to wave their arms around and demand something be done about it. Some others are going to get plain mean about it.

Gird your loins. Battle is upon us.


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

Ernie said:


> It's not really their fault. They got on a gravy train that had been running full speed before they were even born. Only the gravy train is running out of steam. Maybe someone stole a lot of the gravy, or maybe all of the gravy was fictional to begin with. Don't know and it doesn't matter.
> 
> What matters is that we awake to the reality of the situation. What's going on in Wisconsistan is only the beginning. Pretty soon all the other riders on the gravy train are going to wonder why it hasn't pulled into the station. Some of them are going to go on about their business. Some of them are going to wave their arms around and demand something be done about it. Some others are going to get plain mean about it.
> 
> Gird your loins. Battle is upon us.


After watching the same thing happen in Europe, no one should be surprised that it's happening here.


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## jerrwhy (Jan 12, 2010)

Shine said:


> Well I guess it doesn't matter. I guess it would be OK to serve some time for those that murder and commit all those crimes we hear about snip.... You may answer that for yourself.


So precisely what does that have to do with Wisconsin's budget deficit? Those lower and middle class families that were left footing the bill now have to foot an even greater bill to cover the unions and Wisconsin's deficits? So basically you're saying that because of the banks lying in bed with the government, the tax payers, a seperate third party btw, who happened to get stuck with the bill for the banks should give you more because they're the victims in this? 

I'm sorry I'm having a hard time following. Not trying to be rude or disrespectful, but I really don't understand as that would be like my neighbors house being vandalized by some local teenagers and then my wife and myself get slapped with the bill to repair his house because someone else did it. That's basically what you're saying. 



Shine said:


> Hmmm... Maybe if we assessed the proper blame and assigned the proper punishments after the thorough investigations were completed, maybe, just maybe, it might not happen again, ya think? [...he said in a conversational tone...]


And after you've avoided the issue it'll still be there. You can scream from the roof tops, shout and jump up and down but the debt is still there and the problem is still in front of you. 



Shine said:


> Sorry, I don't understand what you're suggesting here....snip.... humanity ordered value?


I ask the question another way. Should the taxpayers, who've been through the wringer so to speak economically and have sacraficed much of themselves be asked to sacrafice more for the unions who've sacraficed relatively little, or should the unions be asked to step up to the plate and make some concessions that the tax payers have made.

It seems to me that if the unions were truely sympathetic to the plight of the tax payer who've been saddled with the burdens of elitest wall street robber barons then sacraficing a little would seem to be the order of the day. Or, should the taxpayer, the main source of revenue and income for the employees of the state of Wisconsin be asked to sacrafice even more so the unions can go on. 



Shine said:


> "Precisely" ->??? When you strip the state governments of a big portion of their income, namely the taxes that they have lost for the properties that are sitting empty then you have short changed the argument. I don't want to talk about whether or not taxes are valid or are not. I have some anti-tax views myself. Are you a saying that the State Governments have matched the Federal Government in their spending habits?


It doesn't matter. Those taxes are lost revenue, and stating that you don't want to talk about or address those things won't make the problem go away. They are the crux of the argument. In fact, it's that inability to recgonize, address, and resolve that very problem and others like it that's at the core of the issue. 

And I'm sorry, you cannot have anti-tax issues and be supportitive of the union issues, the two are currently exclusive because those taxes and spending are the very core of the problem. It's the same in many states and local governments, there is no more money. 



Shine said:


> But, if someone's pay is shorted because someone else cheated the system, will you too accept a reduction in your pay, your pension, your ability to bid on jobs, etc.. ->?


You're essentially asking to "cheat" (not really the best choice of words) the system and burden someone else. Those same people have already been burdened enough. They have accepted that reduction in pay, their 401k's slashed, their ability to move from job to job gone, and now you seek to burden them even more. You do realized that this wasn't thier fault either. 

I use to work for the State of Florida, I was a GED teacher with the Department of corrections and before that I was a Special Ed teacher in the public schools. July 08, 2008 was the last time I worked, and since that time I haven't been able to land anything. I believe so strongly in fixing this current fiscal mess that I have yet to accept one dime of unemployment compensation. 

My wife is currently a dentist with the Department of Correction and we're bracing for the same thing that's going on in Wisconsin because the issues are similar. And to be honest neither of us has a problem with her paying into her retirement and paying more for health insurance because if that's the worst of it then we're thankful that there still is a job for her. 



Shine said:


> The whole fight is coming to ahead, IMO because the Government has taken the largest transfer of wealth in the history of mankind and has laid it in the laps of the ones who least need it. Also, those that least needed it are, in a large part, the ones that caused it.


And now do the unions seek to continue to do the same? Are they not asking for the tax payer to give more, to transfer more of their wealth to the unions in the form of perks and benefits? It certainly appears that way to me. If I'm wrong please tell me, you can em PM me and we can take this private.

Lastly, I've been playing around on the internet since it was multi-line BBS's. It's pretty easy to identify two different screen names comming from the same computer. The join date was your give away


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## tab (Aug 20, 2002)

Good point DJ. Something Beck has been saying for weeks. 

Like Egypt, there are outside sources taking advantage of this. Dh is working overnights and listens to a LOT of news. Said thirty buses came from Ill(?) to help the protestors. As posted already, Jesse Jackson is taking up the "cause".


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Jerrwhy... It seems you've misread more than what I tried to mean. I wanted a casual conversation and you've become upset. For not getting the point across that I intended to get across, I apologize for my inept writing. For having my views, which have been severely misrepresented and maligned in your reply, I do not apologize.

If you will allow me to clarify...
"So precisely what does that have to do with Wisconsin's budget deficit? "

The gentleman that I was replying to had suggested that we not blame those who caused this mess and then suggested that we are all part of the bankers scheme and the government's complicity. Short and to the point, I stretched the analogy to include murderers and other criminals to make a point. See?

Then, we get this...
"Shine, the funny thing multiple personas is that they can be traced back to the same computer"

Sir, I shall not malign your capabilities. The only possibility of this being an actual "happening" that I can think of would be that the screen name that I first applied with, "FOMAD" standing for *F*ather *O*f *M*atthew *A*nd *D*aniel never got approved. I applied again after waiting for a month and a week. I selected my nickname from childhood that I got for running away from Virginia to Florida and then being brought back. FOMAD, to my knowledge was never approved. Shine was approved and as you can see, this is post number 9... number 9... number 9 - hey - that has a ring to it. I have not used "multiple personas", and it's as simple as that. But hey, if you need to push the issue, you may, with my permission, post the compelling evidence for all to see.

"And after you've avoided the issue it'll still be there"

Yes, the issue is there, but respectfully, I think that you've missed it. There is no longer any difference between the parties anymore. Both have sold out to the corporations and the bankers. I don't think voting republican will get 'er done anymore. Yup, you're right - we're toast.

"I ask the question another way"

I'll oblige and answer it another way. No one, not one American, not one Greek, not one Portuguese, not one Irelander and surely no one that did not benefit from the scams and the schemes perpetrated on the global economy should suffer to make the bankers, the derivative sellers, the ones that insured those bad bets whole like our government did should suffer. My simple answer is "Take the money back. Send the criminals to jail." The unions were an important part of America, they did their part in making America better. You do realize that the Global Economy crash was perpetrated by the bankers that call themselves "American" don't you? All the banks were either trading derivatives with the European partners or cutting bogus home loans too copying the American Bankers. - ....of course until the scam played out. 

"inability to recgonize, address, and resolve that very problem "

The core of the issue is that the wealth of Americans has been stolen and placed in the hands of those that will only use it to seek more wealth. This crew currently in place makes the Robber Barons and the Carpet Baggers seem like three card monte scam artists. You realize that our debt is nearing 15 trillion and our unfunded liabilities have exceeded 130 trillion too, right?

"you cannot have anti-tax issues and be supportitive of the union issues"

The Unions have their place, I don't think that they should have first amendment rights or anything silly like that. If a group of workers wish to be spoken for by an entity and that entity is able to get them contracts, how does that align with the freedom for those that have chosen, to chose? I don't want them in my field because of the same reasons that you do not. As for taxes, if they are constitutional, then I have no issue with them. Can you tell me which category the Income Tax falls into - Direct or Indirect?

"You're essentially asking to "cheat" (not really the best choice of words) the system and burden someone else. "

No, respectfully, I am not. If there is a contract in place, I expect that to be honored. If there is not a contract in place, then the unions can do whatever they want and then those who would join them or who are members can make their choice. However, for the "state" to reach inside that contract and alter it's construct means that the premise of a "contract" is null and void.

"I believe so strongly in fixing this current fiscal mess that I have yet to accept one dime of unemployment compensation. "

I guess you're to be commended for the diligence in which you make the proof be in the pudding. I was not that capable, for a short period, I took Unemployment Compensation because I was unable to get a job I was capable of even handing out resumes standing on the median after working day labor during the week.

"And now do the unions seek to continue to do the same?"

With regards to proportionality, I don't think that "Unions" have taken much of a chunk out of anything. If you were railing against the banking lobbyists, or the Insurance Lobbyists, or the Pharmaceutical Lobbyists then I think I could get on board with your arguments, I would like to see the portions that the above are garnering against the Unions.

"Lastly, I've been playing around on the internet since it was multi-line BBS's. It's pretty easy to identify two different screen names comming from the same computer. The join date was your give away"

I've been doing Datacommunications and Telecommunications since '82. I can assure you that I am not posting nor have I posted ever under any name on this blog other than "Shine". I do have a wireless router on my home network but I am relatively sure that it is secure with me using WEP2 security along with an Machine Address Exclusion table. So, while I will not call you on your accusations, I will suggest that you might be mistaken.

I started reading this forum because of Forerunner's Compost blog, that was great.


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