# Explain this genetics conundrum...



## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I've never looked too much into rabbit genetics, because my breeds of choice are solids and have mainly to do with simple recessive dilutes only. I have New Zealand Blacks (but also have whites, blues, steels, and agoutis pop up or in the breeding program), and Silver Foxes in black and blue. 

I bred my purebred, fully pedigreed New Zealand black buck to a purebred, fully pedigreed Black Silver Fox jr. doe for her first litter. 

The NZB bucks' pedigree is all blacks, one broken black as a great-grandparent. He does carry blue and white that I've found. When I breed him to my NZB doe, I get all black kits. When I breed him to my agouti NZ doe (sire was a white, dam is black), I get white, black, agouti, and GT steel. When I breed him to my 50% NZW, 50% silver fox (sire was blue SF) doe, I get blacks, blues, and whites. 

The SF doe's pedigree is either blacks or blues. I've owned or known most of the rabbits on her pedigree, so I know what her lines are like. 

Kits were born, all blacks and a blue. As their fur comes in, however, I'm noticing that the blue and two of the blacks appear to be GT STEELS. :shrug:

We did NOT foster any kits to this doe. I've never gotten any off-colors like steel from my SF lines, and I don't get steels/agoutis when breeding the NZB buck any other solid black or blue doe. He's been bred to a black SF doe (unrelated to the current litter), a NZB doe, a black 50%SF/50%NZW (sire was blue SF, dam white NZ), and to his blue 75% NZ/25% SF daughter 

Any ideas what's going on here? 

Here's a 'black' kit, looks a heckuva lot like the GT steels I've gotten in the past - 




























Here's the blue kit:


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## bassmaster17327 (Apr 6, 2011)

Blue is a double recesive gene (dd) and black is a dominant gene (D). You know that a blue is dd but your black can either be (DD) or (Dd), (DD) is only carrying blacks so you could not get blues from that rabbit but the (Dd) is carrying blue so if both parents carried (d) you could get blues. 

White is an albino gene which is also a double recessive (cc), a white rabbit will still be Dd,dd or DD in color but the albino gene covers it up. It like a tv screen, if you turn the brightness all the way the screen appears white but the picture is still there.

I hope that makes some sense


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Oops, I need to clarify. I understand black, blue, agouti, and white genetics already. As I said, I work mainly with simple dominant and recessive traits in my breeds of choice. Agouti is dominant to solid, and blue and white need to be present in 2 alleles to show. 

What I DON'T get, is where the STEEL is coming from when breeding black to black. How do steel genetics work? I've gotten them when crossing NZW's into a colored line, but I didn't worry about it because I know REW 'covers' the color of the NZW - most NZW's are agouti, steels, reds, or blacks 'under' the REW. 

I should get silvered kits (from the dominant silvering gene from the SF line) BUT that doesn't start coming in until 6-8 weeks old.


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## bassmaster17327 (Apr 6, 2011)

I think steel gene is a recessive but I am not sure.I think the steel is in the E/e and has somthing to do with how far down the hair shaft a color goes. I raise Americans and have talked to other breeders that have bred blue to blue and gotten steels, it is amazing how many generations a recessive gene can be hidden.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

Steel is Es on the E locus (where red and harlequin also are found). It is generally dominant to everything but E (regular color) but occasionally hides. I don't know the reasons why or if there's just some simple modifier gene that hides it. If you have a steel you always get steels but sometimes you get steels from nonsteels as well. It seems to be most common in NZ to have hidden steel. I haven't heard of it just popping up in most other breeds.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

If this link is right... Animals that have two alleles for steel may not 'show' steel - and may appear full extension (normal)

E-series: Steel, Tri-color, and more Â« Rabbit Color Genetics Info

Still doesn't explain the fact that steel is supposedly dominant. If my NZ buck is Es/Es, I'd definetely have seen steel kits before now! ALL of his kits should have been steels. I have gotten steel offspring, but out of my agouti NZ doe (sire was NZW, dam is NZB), so she is carrying steel. 

It is the SF doe's first time having kits. However, the likelihood that she is Es/Es is very slim, and that's the only way (if I'm understanding properly) that one can get steel kits out of a full-extention appearing parent. If she's Es/Es, ALL of the kits should've been steel. She has several normal colored kits. I've never seen steel kits out of any other SF breeding ever, or crossbreed excluding when bred to NZW's who likely carry steel themselves. 

*sigh*


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Here is a link I had bookmarked in my rabbit folder when researching steel. Hope it will help.

http://www.thenaturetrail.com/rabbit-genetics/color-e-extension-series-steel-tricolor-locus/

I'm still trying to figure out how to properly identify steel from agouti...


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

There is a modifier gene that hides steel- so your black buck is most likely a hidden steel. Steel is also an incomplete dominant, one of the rabbits has to be it to get it, it is not a recessive that can be carried, or at least that how its been explained to me. Here's a good page that I found, hopefully it explains it better than I did.

E-series: Steel, Tri-color, and more Â« Rabbit Color Genetics Info


Funny all three of us posted the same link--


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

But as I said, the black buck has NOT produced a steel when bred to any other solid rabbit. He's sired several litters out of 6 does now. This is the first litter that's produced steels when bred to full extension does. 

He HAS produced steels when bred to my Agouti NZ doe. The Agouti doe is out of my NZB doe, and was sired by a NZW buck that I used to have. I'm pretty darn sure she is producing the steels though.

Here's how to ID agouti from Steel: 

Agouti will have ligher markings on the belly, under the tail, white eyeliner, and generally be much 'browner' over the body than a steel (as long as we're talking black steel, lol). A steel generally has just a little bit of brown hair intermixed with the black (or blue). Main areas to look are behind the head for browning (see also the pic of the blue kit above). For kits, I look for belly/eye markings to distinguish between agouti/steel. 

Agouti : 



















Steel:


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## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

I've given up trying to figure out the color genetics. I though I was doing OK, but then I started getting kits with colors that made no sense - 

I also ended up with steels out of my NZW does after crossing them with non REW bucks. Very pretty color.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

mygoat said:


> Here's how to ID agouti from Steel:
> ]


Thank you!

I think I read that there are over 700 or 7,000 genetic variations in rabbits?

Like macybaby, I also gave up trying to keep it straight, my brain was about to explode trying to absorb it all.

Kudos to you rabbit genetics gurus.


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## mysticklobo (Feb 24, 2008)

Also you NEED the agouti gene for steel to show. I have the steel gene in my hybrid angora line, discovered it by accident. The one buck I was given, who everyone thought was a chinchilla was actually a silver-tipped black steel. We realized that when he threw a gold-tipped lilac steel daughter.

The SILVERING gene, that gives the color to Silver Foxes and Champagnes is a different gene and is probably what you are seeing in the babies, not steel.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

> Also you NEED the agouti gene for steel to show


I've gotten steel black and steel agouti. They are 2 different things so no you don't have to have agouti to see steel. There was also posted a blue steel. Silvering looks entirely different and is not what is pictured here. It also comes in much less evenly.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

The gold tipping is NOT silvering. Silvering doesn't come in till about 6-8 weeks. This is distinct markings. I've had steel kits born, so I'm aware what they look like. I've also raised a few hundred SF kits at this point.  It's different, trust me.  

If you had the agouti gene, you'd SEE agouti. Agouti is dominant to every other color. To see *true* steel, the agouti gene must NOT be present. Otherwise you'd get steel agouti, as stated.  I did post a comparison between the steel kit and an agouti kit for other reasons. A different litter has agouti kits in it right now, because the dam is agouti.


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

Steel is an incomplete dominant it MUST have one parent be a steel to be expressed. Steel must be on an agouti to be expressed- all rabbits expressing Steel are AGOUTI's- steel works by pushing the normal agouti coloring out to the ends of the fur, thats why the bellies are colored and people think that they are selfs but their not, they are all agoutis if they are visible steels. A self rabbit cannot express the Steel gene, the color for the tipping is not present, silvering is completely different. Think-folks here are saying that they are breeding self to self and getting agouti- thats not possible unless one of the rabbits is a hidden agouti due to the steel gene. Self can hide the expression of steel, hence rabbits that look like selfs but are genetic steels. Breed those to selfs and you'll get more selfs that don't appear to be steels but could be hidden steels, however breed one to an agouti and surprize you might get steels. Then there's supposed to be a modifier gene that also hides the Steel gene, just to muddy the waters further. Its both simple and complicated at the same time, the Steel gene changes where the color is distributed just like the Harlequin gene does.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I've never bred self to self and gotten agouti, it's impossible. HOWEVER, I've bred REW to a self and gotten agouti - but that's because the REW was genetically agouti.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

> Besides E and e, there are two more variants on the extension gene. One is âsteel,â which is symbolized by Es. Itâs a variant on
> 
> 
> These babies, black and tortoise, are genetically the same, except the blacks are E_ and the torts are ee.
> ...


To me, this says that "Steel" is the term for a specific color as well as a variant of colors. In ML's, 'steel' is agouti steel. But, in other breeds There are gold tipped steels, blue gold tipped steels etc. Whole list of colors can be steel. Not all are Agouti. The one I pictured above was a GT steel, not an agouti. 

Still confused as how I got GT steels out of these particular parents... One has sired several litters, most solids except when bred to an agouti doe. He is a BLACK, so CANNOT hide 'agouti'. The other is purebred SF, whose lines (and breed) do NOT throw steels/agoutis.


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## ChiniMiniRex (Aug 11, 2008)

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j110/abc-goatswebsite/DSCF6668.jpg


She LOOKS Agouti, but she is a STEEL! Note the lack of WHITE inside the ears, and the thickness of the ear lacing! And the kit pic above it, it is much clearer!

Have at it - Steel genetics SUCK! LOL!!!

Kelly


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

ChiniMiniRex said:


> http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j110/abc-goatswebsite/DSCF6668.jpg
> 
> 
> She LOOKS Agouti, but she is a STEEL! Note the lack of WHITE inside the ears, and the thickness of the ear lacing! And the kit pic above it, it is much clearer!
> ...


If anything, she's an agouti steel. Which makes sense, she does throw steels. Her current litter include two agoutis, 3 steels, 1 white, 2 blacks. She does have some white in her ears (not a lot, but it's visible when they're a few days old), white eye lacing, white under tail, white underbelly. The kits are the same way. That is NOT THE MOTHER OF THE KITS PICTURED, though. That picture was posted for a visual of the Agouti color. 

As I said, the mother of the confusing kits is a purebred Black Silver fox.


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## ChiniMiniRex (Aug 11, 2008)

I wasn't calling her anything other than what she is. She is a correct Steel, Agouti based. Steels should show hints of their Agouti genetics if they have proper expression. Steel MUST have an agouti gene for proper expression. Steel can hide itself when it feels like it when the geneotype is 'aa'. One 'aa' Steel could look like your bottom pic, and the next will look solid black. It gets worse when the animal is a homozygous steel, and combined with 'aa' genetics. Umbros modifiers can also complicate things further by making the coat overall darker, and limiting the expression of the rufous. I would call it on the NZ as being your steel, even if he is black as midnight - as it is basically unheard of genotype in the Silver Fox. 

Kelly


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Steel gives me a headache. I was pretty darn sure that 'steel' could mean agouti based (which is called simply STEEL, right?) or it could be other colors, like blue gold tipped steel or black gold tipped steel. 

I also thought steel agoutis (STEEL) lacked the whitish underbelly/tail as well? 

Well either way, I'm not suprised she throws gold tipped steel. Her sire was a NZW.  I need to stick with sold colors and simple dilutions. ugh. 

Its the buck I don't understand. No history of steels/agoutis in his background from what I understand. Then again, he does throw white so it's my guess that he's got a lot of white crosses off of his pedigree. But if steel is so dominant, it seems like it would've shown up before either in his history or in his offspring when bred to other non-steel does... and he's had several litters with at least 3 does that I can think of off the top of my head that are NOT steel and have not thrown steel. The breeders I got him from are very picky people, I doubt they'd still have their blacks if they thought they threw sports. 

He's bred back to his daughter, as well as my NZB doe and a different SF doe (forced the SF doe, we'll see if she took)... maybe more answers. 

Just when you think you know what to expect from a proven bucks' litters... *sigh*


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

I think you are seeing the steel because you are crossing breeds. NZ seem to heavily have a gene that hides steel and NZ x NZ can hide steel for many generations. NZ are becoming notorious for hiding steel. I haven't heard of this being as common in other breeds so when you cross out all of a sudden you get steel.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Oh my, how confusing.

I think I will just call them dirt colored rabbits from now on...lol.


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## mysticklobo (Feb 24, 2008)

The terms gold-tipped or silver-tipped come from the color of the intermediate band, gold-tipped if full color [C-] and silver-tipped if chinchilla [c(chd)-]. So a steeled "chestnut" is a gold-tipped black steel or as a lot of breeds call them Steels. Some breeds do recognize that steels can come in all 4 color (black, blue, chocolate and lilac) in both gold-tipped and silver-tipped.


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