# Rifle or handgun



## han_solo

I already have a shot gun. Want a rifle and wife wants a handgun. Will be for home defense. She thinks she can/will do better with a hand gun. What do you think would be better? What kind etc can not do anything that cost like $600.00 and want the ammo to be available. thankyou


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## GunMonkeyIntl

Short rifle. 
A handgun is a weapon you use to buy you time and space to get to your rifle.


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## Bubbas Boys

12 Gauge short barrel with Buck for home defense here! Handguns are fun but not what I grab first!


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## Janis R

Rifle for you and handgun for her, look around and you can get both for $600.00


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## watcher

As with most things the answer is "It depends".

What do you mean by "home defense"? If you mean its what you grab when you hear a bump in the night in the house and go to check it out then a handgun is the better option. Take a rifle sized stick and try walking around the house with it. Notice how difficult it is to open a door while keeping it at the ready. Notice how far away the end of it is from your body and think how easy it would be for someone to grab the muzzle and stick a knife in your guts. There are very few things more dangerous than clearing a building. Troopers don't toss a grenade into a room before entering just because they like hearing the boom. 

If you mean you want something to protect your livestock from critters and your house from bad guys from outside then the rifle is the better option due to the greater range and better accuracy at that range.

I'd buy a handgun and a short bbl for the shotgun. Then when you hear a bump you take the handgun and have the wife follow on with the shotgun.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

a hand gun she will carry , one for you also later 

hand guns are a huge convenience factor easy to carry any where ready when you need them an not a run across the house to get it 

there are a dozen or more really good guns out there in the 350-450 price point that are just very very good 

ruger , smith , glock , Springfield armory , Walther , Kahr , sig are all good brands that have a good offering in the 350-450 entry point , the glocks are a bit more money but easy to find holsters for and you can get some better prices on a refurbished one 

it should fit her hand well and it is best if you can rent at a local range and find one she likes to shoot 

9mm keeps ammo affordable , available and is not usually to much recoil for smaller shooter but enough to be effective
revolvers are also good , revolvers tend to cost a bit more but are very simple to operate 38spl would be a good choice but ammo is also a bit more expensive 


if you already own a shotgun you already have long gun fairly well covered for everything inside 100 yards , and it is really hard to call it Defense at greater than 100 yards


by she thinks she can or will do better with a pistol , pistols are much harder to accurately hit a target with than a rifle or shotgun , but when we are talking pistol distances 21feet to arms reach that doesn't make a lot of difference , and the convenience factor takes over 

If I knew I was going into a situation sure I would have a rifle with extra mags and body armor and backup and aww forget it just call in the air strike and be done with it 

but we don't know we are going into a situation , we know not the hour , so having a small less than 2 pound side arm always present , you always have something to deal with the immediate threat


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## Gray Wolf

Big questions....really big...

Do you have a neighbors house you can see? 

Do you have guests or family members living in your house?

Is your house made of wood?

A YES answer to any of them should rule out a rifle. 
A YES answer to any of them should rule out buckshot.

I keep handguns for home defense and select caliber and load accordingly.


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## michael ark

Look at the ak pistols best of both worlds.[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=798eNj0s0Ls"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=798eNj0s0Ls[/ame]


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## han_solo

Gray Wolf said:


> Big questions....really big...
> 
> Do you have a neighbors house you can see?
> 
> Do you have guests or family members living in your house?
> 
> Is your house made of wood?
> 
> A YES answer to any of them should rule out a rifle.
> A YES answer to any of them should rule out buckshot.
> 
> I keep handguns for home defense and select caliber and load accordingly.


I am basically in the woods. Have a house below/right of us,one other side and up from us on the road and the one at top of hill. My backyard is hill going down and then up and have a home made shooting range the PO did


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## Gray Wolf

Over-penetration is the concern with rifles and buckshot if a bad guy miss, or even a hit, goes through a wall.

You didn't say if other people in the house.

My opinions --- just mine.

Shotguns in the house are not going to have a pattern that opens up enough to matter. Lots of damage if you hit but ...... If you must use shotgun in the house, at 20' or less, a coach gun loaded with birdshot might be worth considering.

There are several frangible handgun loads but none, that I know of, for rifles. For civilian use a rifle inside a house, I'd stay away from all rifles. (Yes, a 22 won't go through as many walls but it isn't the greatest choice for defense.)

Choose caliber first. Then load. Then weapon.

I have handguns that will cheerefully shoot through my house, your house and maybe beyond. They stay in the safe. Look at a frangible 9mm or 38 unless overpenetration isn't a concern.


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## han_solo

Yes have kids. Where i would/will be shooting at will not be any houses,buildings. It is a hill down then up. thanks


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

what grey wolf is concerned about since you said primary use home defense is shots fired inside the house in many jurisdictions this is one of the few places you are justified to shoot in self defense

this also bring sup the shotgun debate buck vs bird shot , the best answer I have gotten on this is that of an officer on a police warrant team who after much testing came to the conclusion #4 buck 2 3/4 loads are the way to go I think he said his department choose the federal premium personal defense , if you look at the velocity of the load it could go faster but federal loads it for the sweet spot in penetration vs over penetration . 
but it will go through dry wall walls one of the criteria is that if someone was on the other side of a wall using the the door jam for concealment that they could fire into the drywall and penetrate through and get a stop , it's a fine line how many walls it will go through a lot depends on angles and construction #4 buck uses 22 caliber balls while 00 uses 33 caliber balls but they choose #4 because it would do what they needed but also reduce the danger of hitting other officers or by standards as much as they could through walls I suspect that ,that may only be aiming for non lethal if you are wearing a vest and receive medical attention fast

bird shot makes very ugly wounds but lacks penetration to get the stop desired meaning organs , major arteries , bone or central nerve system . I know a guy shot from an across the room distance with bird shot and while they had to re-route his stomach for a while he is alive many years later and lives a mostly normal life 

they do make frangable 223 it is mostly used in training on steel targets as it breaks up and offers less ricochet danger the same applies to pistol frangible rounds 

law enforcement is using 223 with Hotpoint or soft point ammo as it is moving so fast that it has great hydrostatic shock properties yet the small light bullet breaks apart reasonably well in walls but it is going to go through walls again it is how many and that will vary widely by bullet construction

any one who hasn't been to the box-O_truth needs to see some of it for them selves http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-3-the-shotgun-meets-the-box-o-truth/

my wish was that the box o truth had 2 sheets fully supported drywall 3 1/2 inches apart and painted then 3 feet then 2 more sheets and so on , I feel the distance between sheets might change the test as would supporting the sheets and as we all know drywall gets a lot of it's strength from being painted and supported all the way around but that makes for a lot of setup and cost so take it for what it is 

if your goal is just to enjoy shooting get a 22 rifle and enjoy your range if home defense is the reason then explore these options 

but if you have to shoot in your house make sure you hit the target personal defense rounds are calibrated to penetrate 12 inches in ballistic gel the fbi determines this to be enough to ensure a stop with a solid hit a reasonable amount of the time , but also it means center mass hits ideally do not exit a human torso or if they do they have lost most of their energy 

most pistols are capable of a hotter load than the personal defense load , the FBI load as they are referred to is a hotter load it will penetrate a windshield at a 45* angle and penetrate 12 inches or something around that , but some law enforcement agencies are having problems with these over penetrating and hitting other officers or by standards when a good shot is made on the suspect but another officer or by-standard is behind the suspect

unlike law enforcement you will have a very hard time explaining why you were shooting through windshields


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## jwal10

Home defense, light, short barrel shot gun. Property defense, rifle. Personal defense pistol....but....person needs to be able to handle VERY well, other wise short shotgun. Me #1, all around gun, rifle. Noisier the better, l e v e r a c t i o n....James


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

one more thing to note , you have kids , this can present an issue to leaving anything loaded , they all shoot and most of them own a gun or 2 

but only the gun at my side is loaded 

kids are just kids some times and the risk outweighs the benefit


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## Nimrod

I have all three loaded and ready but I have no kids. 

Whatever you use for home defense, you have to make the practice time to be very proficient with it. It does you no good if you can't hit the bad guy.

If I were in your situation I would get a handgun. Lock the shotgun up so the kids can't get their hands on it. Get a handgun safe that opens easily and keep the handgun in it, next to the bed. Be certain that the kids can't open the safe.

I find it much easier to be accurate with a handgun if I am not fighting the force needed to cock the hammer when I pull the trigger. You can cock the hammer manually on a revolver for the first shot but probably don't want to take the time to do it for follow up shots. You are never fighting the force needed to cock the hammer on a semiautomatic handgun because the action of chambering a round re-cocks the hammer. The exception is if your semiautomatic has an exposed hammer and you have let it down for storage. Semiautos have become much more dependable so you should be able to find a factory load that it cycles well. I would opt for a semiauto.

Don't be afraid to buy a used gun. It will be more budget friendly. Have it checked out by a gunsmith so you don't buy one that is worn out.


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## Drizler

The best gun to have in the house is a 12 Gauge pump. Loaded nearby with nothing in the tube. Leave it off safety better yet. The first thing you do when you hear something is rack one in (keeping your booger hook off the bang lever). Every felon knows the sound of a shotgun. He also knows if he can hear that famous "rack rack" he is in range. That alone will send him crashing out the way he came in almost guaranteed. That way you don't have to shall we say, "encounter each other". Also guaranteed he will never come back. 
As for ammo I'd just use bird shot like #2 or 4. Buck shot is better farther out but will go through walls and hit who knows who and it's hard to prove self defense if you take some guys legs out from under him running away at 50 yards. A nice short 20" barrel is fine for home use . You can find pump guns cheap all over . No huge 3" magnums either. Anything you need to do will work great with 2 3/4 high brass shells and they won't stun you or throw nearly as huge a blinding flash. 
I don't recommend a handgun because they are hard to use for most people and real hard to hit someone with in the dark especially if you miss and are blinded by the muzzle flash. Kids are a bigger issue with handguns too. I have one but then they made me practice night fire for decades and I still prefer a shotgun. Hang it way up high where you can reach it but kids can't. Fill the tube, safety off and leave it alone up there.
It's the best especially for wife types too. They will learn to use it and probably quickly pretty much forget how proficiently. Still they can rack that slide and make that magic noise that no one wants to hear. Even a scared woman almost cant miss a thug across a room and they know it. With a handgun all that goes pretty much out the window fumbling in the dark.\
Last big rule. After your near encounter with the meth head who is running down the road with a load in his pants the cops will come flying up. Don't even think about showing your face outside to them with a gun in your hand. Better yet stay put and holler to them to establish who you are. Don't laugh people do that all the time and then find they themselves don't much like looking down a gun barrel.


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## Gray Wolf

When selecting weapon and load, remember that in a home situation, a miss, or even a hit, may have nothing to stop it other than a hollow core door or a window. The hotter the load the greater the chance of unintended targets. Just give it some thought and do what's best for you.

I'm still a fan of 380, 38, or 9 mm handguns inside a house with kids or neighbors. Some will say too low power but keep on pulling the trigger untill the threat is removed. Modern rounds in all calibers will discourage the recipient. IF you hit them. 

Us = no kids or neighbors = go big and go loud = a couple of hot-loaded 357 mag and a 44 mag for house & shop guns. 

Whatever you do, try to shoot it before you buy. There's a lot to be said for a gun that "fits" you and has manageable recoil, then practice, practice, practice. In a time long long ago, my weekly goal was no less than 500 rounds of 357 a month. I did that for a few years. I could hit stuff. Now I'm lucky to do 100 a month among all calibers. I can still scare the 10 ring a bit though.


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## Gray Wolf

One more thing, just to fan the flames. I am not a personel believer in a noisy gun.

Racking anything does a few things I think aren't the best: it takes time; it reduces the amount of ammo, it tells the bad guy where you are.

In the case of a sporting shotgun that most homeowners would have, it would tell me that you only have two shots. A few more if the plug is out but racking it still lets me know you have a very limited number of shots and a quick reload is unlikely. I still like handguns.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

I am also not a fan of racking , announcing or threatening. all this says is I have no idea who you are or where you are and gives away your position.

I left out one very important item , You Need a white light it should be 100 lumens or more but you can get to bright and blind yourself when using to bright of light I like 120-150 lumen lights with momentary push capability , presumably it will often be dark and you need to see and identify your target 
the good news is these are now very small and very good and you can carry one in your pocket every day and it will become one of your most used tools 

yes there are weapons mounted lights but the problem with these is that your now aiming a gun at anything you look at with the light , not good 

yes a light will give away your position but you have to see what it is that went bump int he night

weapons mounted lights have a time and place , they are great for guns set up for night predators , the major difference being you already identified the target and are now raising the gun to shoot the predator even if it is running away because you want it dealt with, like a raccoon at the chicken coop , but in your house you need to make sure it isn't a child who got up to get a drink of water a friend of mine had that happen , he normally would hear the kids get up but he hadn't this time but he heard a rustling around in the kitchen , he grabbed his gun and light at the time the best light around was 3 d-cell mag light all the cops carried them this was some years ago.
he saw some one coming turned on that light and blinded his 8 year old son who dropped the glass and it shattered at his feet 
this friend was reasonably well trained as that goes he had been working undercover drug enforcement about 10 years prior


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## JohnnyRebel

I am now back since my internet was down for 2 weeks. I prefer a shotgun over all for home defense. After that I would prefer a rifle, more stopping power however if you are clearing the house (you should wait for Law Enforcement to clear the house) a rifle is not your best bet. If you plan on going room to room to make sure all is clear, do not use a rifle as you cannot make turns around walls as maneuverable as a pistol. As for the pistol, it is more dynamic, more easy to hold, and mroe easy to fire since most larger calibers are either revolver or semi-auto compared to a bolt or lever action rifle. Also, if your wife were to use it and not you (i.e. you are out of town, working, etc) a pistol would be better for her since a rifle is bigger, bulkier, and hits the shoulder and not the wrists. It depends are your scenario. Good Luck


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## Snowfan

Do you have any way to arrange with someone to shoot several of each in different calibers? Just remember that just having a gun doesn't make you safe. You have to be willing to use it should the time come. Bringing that weapon up, taking off the safety and pointing it at someones chest shouldn't be taken lightly. If you can't do that, you're just giving them a weapon to use on you and your family.


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## han_solo

Thanks everyone will keep all of this in mind


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## Chuck R.

Just some additional thoughts to what's been given.

I prefer an M4 carbine type in 5.56/.223 with a mounted white light for several reasons. I'll take a long gun over a handgun any day of the week whether its a carbine or a shotgun. Both are just easier to hit with, and both are generally in a more effective caliber/gauge. While longer overall, this can (like most things) be mitigated by training. 

Why I like an M4:

1. With the proper ammo, it actually has less chance of overpenetration on walls etc, due to fragmenting. here's a pretty good article, but just google ".223 over-penetration and you'll find more":

http://www.gunsandammo.com/ammo/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/

Bottom line is anything capable of stopping a human being is going to penetrate walls/ doors etc. There also may come a time when "turning cover into concealment" may be a good thing, such as having to shoot through a barrier. 

2. Lightweight, minimal recoil, stock adjusts for family members, plenty of rounds on board.

3. Overall length of a carbine at low ready is only slightly longer than a handgun in a retention position.

4. Much easier to maintain control of a long-gun for retention, it's also easier to keep the weapon from being turned on you in a grappling situation. 

5. IF "the fight" should move outdoors and at greater distance, I'm better prepared for it than with a handgun. 

6. 23 years with the M16/M4 platform, then a couple carbine classes and 3-gun matches and it's the gun I know best. 

I'm a huge fan of mounted lights for HD guns whether their pistols, shotguns or carbines. After 3 low-light classes and shooting a chitload of low-light engagements in matches, I want a light if possible, especially on a long gun. Most if not all of the arguments against a mounted light can be resolved by taking a low-light class and learning how to use one. 

1. Just because it's there, doesn't mean you have to use it. Most/all have momentary switches. 
2. No chance of leaving a light behind. 
3. Most modern weapon lights have enough lumens/spill to illuminate a room well enough for target ID at the low ready, no need to muzzle sweep a target. To be honest, muzzle sweeping someone that's in my house at "o"dark thirty is the least of my concerns. Big difference between sweeping, and actually pulling a trigger. 
4. They do have a physical "effect" on a target, especially if their eyes have been accustomed to the dark. 
5. Much easier dealing with doors, phones, reloading, carrying a child etc. with a mounted light.

Chuck


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## 358156hp

There was an article in SWAT Magazine a month or two ago outlining the advantages and disadvantages of all three weapons systems. The writer is a well accredited law enforcement trainer. His first choice ended up being the M4 carbine, and he outlined excellent reasons. With ammunition designed for varmint hunting, the 223s penetration was less than any 9mm self-defense ammo tested. As far as maneuverability, the carbine tied the handgun. Pictures were shown of the same person standing in a ready position in the same spot with handgun, carbine, and shotgun. The shotgun was longer that the rest, but the handgun was only slightly shorter than the carbine. Our house has always been laid out for handgun first, due to it's concealability, The old saying about a handgun being a dandy tool to use to fight your way to a rifle definitely prevails for us. The second layer is carbine, and the shotgun is the last resort, mostly due to its heavier recoil, lower portability, heavier weight, and lower magazine capacity. Kind of a last ditch "stopper". I recommend against "cheaping out" on whatever you buy. Benjamin Franklin once opined "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten", and I've come to realize after all these years that this is especially true today. Just MHO.


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## krackin

How many of you have actually been in civilian level combative situations? How many of you have received wounds in these situations? How many of you have responded with like or expanded reciprocation? How many of you handle firearms daily as a common tool? 

Been there , done that, I don't want the T shirt.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

thanks chuck for pointing out that you don't have to use a mounted light just because you have it 

there are several situations I can think of where I may want a gun with but I am not starting in the house and carrying a long gun just isn't practical.

an AR15 is a great tool and would be good for what you describe , but the best tool in my mind is the one you have with you and it is very unlikely I am carrying a rifle around unless I am hunting or I started in the house and something caused me to think I would need it .


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## palm farmer

krackin said:


> How many of you have actually been in civilian level combative situations? How many of you have received wounds in these situations? How many of you have responded with like or expanded reciprocation? How many of you handle firearms daily as a common tool?
> 
> Been there , done that, I don't want the T shirt.



Tshirts? metal rods n screws n bone grafts last a lot longer, 3 inches of femur shattered by a 9mm, I was lucky, I still won, the lesson learned... I will take a SBR or a SBS over a hand gun in a cqb or low light/night time situation everytime. Whatever you and the Mrs. Solo get, train, train, and train some more, because at the moment of truth you will not rise to the occasion, you will fall back to the level of your training.


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## krackin

palm farmer said:


> Tshirts? metal rods n screws n bone grafts last a lot longer, 3 inches of femur shattered by a 9mm, I was lucky, I still won, the lesson learned... I will take a SBR or a SBS over a hand gun in a cqb or low light/night time situation everytime. Whatever you and the Mrs. Solo get, train, train, and train some more, because at the moment of truth you will not rise to the occasion, you will fall back to the level of your training.


May God bless. I've survived mine too. 4 times. I expect that we will continue to do so, right? 

Next time, use the sbs to powder the aggressors face with sunshine.


.


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## Shrek

watcher said:


> As with most things the answer is "It depends".
> 
> What do you mean by "home defense"? If you mean its what you grab when you hear a bump in the night in the house and go to check it out then a handgun is the better option. Take a rifle sized stick and try walking around the house with it. Notice how difficult it is to open a door while keeping it at the ready. Notice how far away the end of it is from your body and think how easy it would be for someone to grab the muzzle and stick a knife in your guts. There are very few things more dangerous than clearing a building. Troopers don't toss a grenade into a room before entering just because they like hearing the boom.
> 
> If you mean you want something to protect your livestock from critters and your house from bad guys from outside then the rifle is the better option due to the greater range and better accuracy at that range.
> 
> I'd buy a handgun and a short bbl for the shotgun. Then when you hear a bump you take the handgun and have the wife follow on with the shotgun.


Remember what John Wayne said to Mississippi the gambler with the sawed off as the doc pulled lead out his backside after the gunfight. ""Next time you go out front with that short barrel shotgun"


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## Gabriel

han_solo said:


> What do you think would be better?


The best thing to get isn't hardware, it's software. You already have a gun, it would be better for you to pay for a 3-4 day class and really get good with what you've got.


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## KY-Bound

Everybody has an opinion that is best for them. I bought my wife a handgun for home defense. She doesn't shoot a lot so my decision was made on these items: Panic - People can panic when someone is breaking in. Reaction time - how quickly can you get your gun, and how long does it take to be able to pull the trigger. A man can cross 15 feet of room in 2 seconds. Stopping power. Simple to use. So I bought my wife a S&W 357 Mag (which also shoots 38's) revolver. She can practice with 38. I keep 357 home defense loads in it. Pull the trigger is all you have to do. Even if you miss on the first shot, NOBODY is sticking around for the 2nd. It's easy, it's powerful, you don't have to think, it's quick. You're not defending your home from ISIS, you're trying to hurt or scare off some dumbass, and you have zero time to react. Revolver for the ladies is the way to go for me.


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## Chuck R.

Gabriel said:


> The best thing to get isn't hardware, it's software. You already have a gun, it would be better for you to pay for a 3-4 day class and really get good with what you've got.


Your's is awesome advice that unfortunately most folks won't follow. Hardware, is relatively quick and easy; training, competitions, actual practice not so much.

I try to get in a class or two a year; last year I took a close quarters weekend class where all the shooting took place within 0-10'. This year I'm taking a 60 hr pistol/carbine class that includes 3 classroom sessions, 4 range sessions and a little over 1500 rds in 1 1/2 months. We had our 1st orientation/equipment check on Tuesday and the course starts next month.

I actually like taking shooting classes, seems like I learn something new every time, or find myself letting bad habits develop. It good to let someone else watch you go through the paces as they'll catch something you're unaware you're doing. It (and matches) are also a great time to check out/verify your equipment. Nothing like a little stress or a timer to help figure out that a "good idea" doesn't workout as well as expected. 

Also, there's always new TTPs being developed, some good, some not so good, some just won't work for you at all. It's good to be able to add some things to the kit bag when they work out. 

Chuck


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

you might just leave the 38s in the gun , I was doing some drills the other day and I had been doing it with light loads I stepped up to full power ammo , my first to second shot recovery rate was terrible so if your not used to it and you are used to your practice ammo you could have 3-4 on target in the time to recover from that first surprise of recoil

I would venture that if you had a timer I could get all 6 of my target load 38s in the target before I could get 4 357 rounds in and I shoot fairly well and often

train what you shoot , shoot what you train


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## Chuck R.

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> you might just leave the 38s in the gun , *I was doing some drills the other day and I had been doing it with light loads I stepped up to full power ammo , my first to second shot recovery rate was terrible so if your not used to it and you are used to your practice ammo you could have 3-4 on target in the time to recover from that first surprise of recoil
> *
> I would venture that if you had a timer I could get all 6 of my target load 38s in the target before I could get 4 357 rounds in and I shoot fairly well and often
> 
> train what you shoot , shoot what you train


The CHP learned this lesson back in 1970, they also used to train with .38SPC, and use .357 for duty use:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newhall_massacre



> The three officers who fired their handguns were using .357 Magnum rounds, although they had only been trained and certified with .38 Special ammunition, which has less recoil. Soon after the shootout, the CHP standardized their ammunition on the .38 caliber round, ensuring all officers trained with the same ammunition they would use on duty.


Chuck


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## Drizler

any one who hasn't been to the box-O_truth needs to see some of it for them selves http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-...e-box-o-truth/


Now that is certainly interesting.......................... I always though buck and especially slugs penetrated a lot farther.
I still like the pump shotgun for it's scare factor. When you rack one into the chamber if they can hear it (and they will and know exactly what it is) you won't need to go out there and meet them. They will be departing really fast:runforhills::runforhills: which is what you actually want them to do. :buds:. The other benefit is not having one in the chamber gives you that. extra margin of kid safety.:thumb: Oh and double barrels, sorta expensive and not so safe to operate for most folks .


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## dltasig7

Bubbas Boys said:


> 12 Gauge short barrel with Buck for home defense here! Handguns are fun but not what I grab first!


I have to second this, and all experts agree. 00 buck is deadly and more bang for your buck in the sense that multiple targets are cleared in one shot.


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## dltasig7

Gray Wolf said:


> Over-penetration is the concern with rifles and buckshot if a bad guy miss, or even a hit, goes through a wall.
> 
> You didn't say if other people in the house.
> 
> My opinions --- just mine.
> 
> Shotguns in the house are not going to have a pattern that opens up enough to matter. Lots of damage if you hit but ...... If you must use shotgun in the house, at 20' or less, a coach gun loaded with birdshot might be worth considering.
> 
> There are several frangible handgun loads but none, that I know of, for rifles. For civilian use a rifle inside a house, I'd stay away from all rifles. (Yes, a 22 won't go through as many walls but it isn't the greatest choice for defense.)
> 
> Choose caliber first. Then load. Then weapon.
> 
> I have handguns that will cheerefully shoot through my house, your house and maybe beyond. They stay in the safe. Look at a frangible 9mm or 38 unless overpenetration isn't a concern.


That's why they called shotguns "alley sweepers." I aso agree on the "no rifle" for home defense. In fact a rifle almost sounds silly unless it was the only choice. (Never bring a knife to a gun fight.)


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## Gray Wolf

Look up the pattern of 00 buck at 15', a likely distance inside a house. The answer, depending on brand and load, will be around 5" - not exactly going to sweep a room of bad guys. Fine stuff for an experienced person but don't expect a miracle. 

One more time... Racking a sporting shotgun may scare a kid but it would tell me that you only have two shots in the gun and a quick reload is unlikely. Trick you into shooting a few times and I'd own the place. If you have the plug out, or a purpose-built defensive shotgun, you have more shots but, again, if you waste them, you are standing there with a steel stick in your hands. If you don't get lucky right off with a shotgun, you probably should have brought a high-cap handgun and a spare magazine.


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## dltasig7

Gray Wolf said:


> Look up the pattern of 00 buck at 15', a likely distance inside a house. The answer, depending on brand and load, will be around 5" - not exactly going to sweep a room of bad guys. Fine stuff for an experienced person but don't expect a miracle.
> 
> One more time... Racking a sporting shotgun may scare a kid but it would tell me that you only have two shots in the gun and a quick reload is unlikely. Trick you into shooting a few times and I'd own the place. If you have the plug out, or a purpose-built defensive shotgun, you have more shots but, again, if you waste them, you are standing there with a steel stick in your hands. If you don't get lucky right off with a shotgun, you probably should have brought a high-cap handgun and a spare magazine.


Again, well said...Point(s) taken. Definitely agree with the 15'. I would like to add that with a semi-auto and the 4 + 1, that's ok with me. Even if they're not standing shoulder-to-shoulder, that's 45 pellets (5 at a time) as fast as I can pull the trigger, and I have no rooms in my house bigger than 24' x 12'


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl

Gray Wolf said:


> Look up the pattern of 00 buck at 15', a likely distance inside a house. The answer, depending on brand and load, will be around 5" - not exactly going to sweep a room of bad guys. Fine stuff for an experienced person but don't expect a miracle.
> 
> One more time... Racking a sporting shotgun may scare a kid but it would tell me that you only have two shots in the gun and a quick reload is unlikely. Trick you into shooting a few times and I'd own the place. If you have the plug out, or a purpose-built defensive shotgun, you have more shots but, again, if you waste them, you are standing there with a steel stick in your hands. If you don't get lucky right off with a shotgun, you probably should have brought a high-cap handgun and a spare magazine.


Very well-informed opinion. 
Too much stock is put in the "rack your shotgun once and the bad guys will run away" theory. It works well according to Hollywood physics, but two very bad things will happen when you do that:

1 - you will throw one of your cartridges (assuming you're carrying the weapon in a state that is actually ready for the engagement) on the floor, from a weapon that already has a relatively low mag capacity.

2 - you will tell the enemy exactly where you are.


----------



## krackin

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Very well-informed opinion.
> Too much stock is put in the "rack your shotgun once and the bad guys will run away" theory. It works well according to Hollywood physics, but two very bad things will happen when you do that:
> 
> 1 - you will throw one of your cartridges (assuming you're carrying the weapon in a state that is actually ready for the engagement) on the floor, from a weapon that already has a relatively low mag capacity.
> 
> 2 - you will tell the enemy exactly where you are.


You also told your adversary that you do not want a confrontation unless you immediately enforce the cycling with muzzle flash. That is all there is, no romance, no bravado, no movie credits. Reality gets very intense very quickly. If you can't fire, don't carry. 

Losing your weapon to an aggressor is devastating to all involved. You had best learn how to be vicious when called or stay home. That, and let old dogs lie on the porch. Old dogs have already been there, they won't rack shotguns.


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## Red_Leg

han_solo said:


> I am basically in the woods. Have a house below/right of us,one other side and up from us on the road and the one at top of hill. My backyard is hill going down and then up and have a home made shooting range the PO did


Under these circumstances you should probably be concerned about area defense so I think you need a rifle. Some kind of AR-15 clone or AK-47 variant will work very well for you. I'm a 7.62 guy myself but it's pretty hard to get that in your price range and 5.56 will do just fine.


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## Dutch 106

I notice that no one mentioned going with old military rifles there is one that is still relatively cheap you could get each of you one in first class condition and a couple thousand round for $600 including a long old fashioned bayonets. 
Mosin-Nagant M91 in 7.62X54R.
Dutch


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## JJ Grandits

I can not think of anything in the world I would want to have in my hand when things get crazy then a 12ga. pump gun. 
There are two reasons:
1) No matter what the load, Buck shot or light trap loads, at the average distance for defensive shooting (less then 20') the shotgun is devastating.

2) It is a firearm I am extremely familiar with. I have had one in my hand for so long that it is almost a part of me. In a high stress situation I want to be armed with something I know inside and out without even thinking.


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## kevinkirk51

I would want a 12 gauge shotgun as well. You cannot miss with it and easy to remember how to use it. 
A nice new pump model is under $200 on sale and used guns can be had for as little as $80.
Go for a good Remington with plastic stock and black barrel and receiver for easiest maintenance like the Rem 870. 
They are easy to use and I have never had one fail and have shot thousands of rounds thru them.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

I like my shotguns , but they are long even the former police riot gun with 20 inch barrel it just doesn't handle well one handed 

and you can miss with a shotgun at 10 feet the shot is almost still in the wad even at 21 feet the pattern of 00 buck is bout the size of a fist 

but If I have to leave it empty it means shucking 8 rounds in when I needed it now 

a pistol with a 15 round mag loads so much faster and is much easier to carry around opening doors , add a weapons light with good spill and you can see where your going also 

pistols are easier to carry but they are harder to accurately shoot , however since the largest room in my house isn't even 5 yards from wall to wall chances are any shots taken will be 3-9 feet at those distances I am not sure I need to add 3 feet of gun
I do practice often with a pistol , many clubs have informal action pistol shoots it really challenges you and can make you a much better shooter.

I understand that shotguns have many times the muzzle energy and if the engagement distance was outside of the very tight quarters of my old house it may well be my go to 

I am fast with a shotgun , it just isn't my go to in the house but if we move out side it would be.

as far as shotguns go I like the 870 it has a lot going for it but living with south paws I can really appreciate the Mossberg with the thumb safety on top, both are solid guns.

but a quality pistol with as big a magazine as is reasonable and reliably feeds has a lot going for it also.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Dutch 106 said:


> I notice that no one mentioned going with old military rifles there is one that is still relatively cheap you could get each of you one in first class condition and a couple thousand round for $600 including a long old fashioned bayonets.
> Mosin-Nagant M91 in 7.62X54R.
> Dutch


the Nagant is a fine gun but rather long for close quarters and over penetration would be a real concern 

the other thing with a nagant is the safety is difficult to use at best ,if one was going to use one you probably just leave the chamber empty and fill the magazine hold the rounds down as you close the bolt so that it does not pick up a round the cycle the bolt when ready


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## JJ Grandits

Here in the Great Socialist State of New York there is no such thing as area or perimeter control. You can use deadly force INSIDE your home. Outside is a different matter. Outside you are obligated to retreat. Deadly force outside can only be used to save your life or the life of another, and you better have a half dozen lawyers and a barn full of money if your going that route. 
Besides, the first and second line of my home defense is now sleeping in my spot on our bed.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

JJ Grandits said:


> Here in the Great Socialist State of New York there is no such thing as area or perimeter control. You can use deadly force INSIDE your home. Outside is a different matter. Outside you are obligated to retreat. Deadly force outside can only be used to save your life or the life of another, and you better have a half dozen lawyers and a barn full of money if your going that route.
> Besides, the first and second line of my home defense is now sleeping in my spot on our bed.



we are a bit less socialist , you need to have with what you knew at the time have reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm of your self or a loved one. 

there have been a few home owner involved self defense shootings over the past several years , I have not personalty known any one but from the accounts I have read most are in the house and the home owner answers some questions , turns over their gun for ballistics , generally everything is as the home owner said the person shot had no reason to be there and reasonable fear was present no charges get filed against the home owner and they get their gun back when depending on the jurisdiction the case is closed or the case is closed and they petition the court for it back that can take months to a year or more.

one that stands out was a home owner that shot an unarmed man who had fled a party the police broke up next door , he gained entry to and hid in an enclosed but not heated porch there was no lock between the house and the porch that worked the porch door had the lock but it had ether not gotten locked or the man fleeing the party was able to get it open , when the home owner investigated the noise the man was hiding crouched along the refrigerator and jumped out the home owner shot once as he was between the man and the door the distance was approximately 5 feet only the caliber and not the cartridge was given as 45 the bullet passed through the man and lodged in the wall , behind , the police looked it all over measured and had an autopsy and concluded that the man had been between crouched and fully standing based on the height of the home owner and the place the bullet entered the wall and the blood and wound that the home owner acted with reasonably fear and the matter was closed I think I recall reading the released police report about 2-3 weeks after the incident 


one that sticks out as what not to do , was a home owner who was very tired of his car being broken into repeatedly so when he heard it happening again he went outside , the 3 men breaking into his car ran when they saw him and the home owner fired several shots at them killing one or two and injuring the third I don't remember exactly , that home owner is going to be in prison for several more years.


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## Bearfootfarm

Dutch 106 said:


> I notice that no one mentioned going with old military rifles there is one that is still relatively cheap you could get each of you one in first class condition and a couple thousand round for $600 including a long old fashioned bayonets.
> Mosin-Nagant M91 in 7.62X54R.
> Dutch


I suspect no one mentioned it because old large bolt action rifles are near the bottom of the list for a home defense gun


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## JJ Grandits

They usually come with a bayonet and can also be used as a club.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

JJ Grandits said:


> They usually come with a bayonet and can also be used as a club.


where you a marine , it's always the marines who love their bayonets , you never hear an Airman say if I only had a bayonet and a good club.


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## Chuck R.

Here's a decent but long video (about 35 minutes) going over the Shotgun Vs AR. Don't let the title put you off: "Shotguns Suck for Home Defense" it's got some decent info in it regardless of what you select. 

https://youtu.be/vrm8EdJPBrs

At the 9 min mark they do a pretty good demo of an experienced shotgun shooter VS an inexperienced AR shooter. At the 16 minute mark there's a good example of dispelling the "can't miss with a shotgun" myth when he patterns at normal house hold distance (15' then 18').

Just food for thought....

Chuck


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## JJ Grandits

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> where you a marine , it's always the marines who love their bayonets , you never hear an Airman say if I only had a bayonet and a good club.


Nope. Just grew up in a tough neighborhood.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Chuck R. said:


> Here's a decent but long video (about 35 minutes) going over the Shotgun Vs AR. Don't let the title put you off: "Shotguns Suck for Home Defense" it's got some decent info in it regardless of what you select.
> 
> https://youtu.be/vrm8EdJPBrs
> 
> At the 9 min mark they do a pretty good demo of an experienced shotgun shooter VS an inexperienced AR shooter. At the 16 minute mark there's a good example of dispelling the "can't miss with a shotgun" myth when he patterns at normal house hold distance (15' then 18').
> 
> Just food for thought....
> 
> Chuck


good video , kinda long 

he doesn't put down the shotgun as much as the title implies he likes it and for other uses , but he points out the limitations 

this is where I think you need to ask are you going to be locking the bedroom door with just you and your wife taking cover behind the bed gun trained on door or are you going to need to move to your kids . open doors , go down hallways turn corners . this is where a lot of shotguns are an issues they are long and take 2 hands to operate and if they are short they tend to have very low magazine capacity. in 98% of shotguns maazine capacity is directly tied to length want more rounds the gun has to get longer 

the other thing pointed out is while different brands of shotguns are similar , the controls between companies move all over for slide release , safety , loading while an AR is an AR is an AR all the controls stay put between brands 

if your a dyed in the wool 870 guy been shooting them since you were 8-10 and can do it all eyes closed then it takes some of that argument away if all you have are 870s , but the videos goal is to address the myth that all you need is a shotgun if you never owned a gun before , have taken 1 safety class and are out to purchase a home defense gun , the shotgun took longer to train for cops and civilians shouldn't expect to be an exception to the training time.
this also gets to the most people don't grow up with a shotgun in their hands anymore as many of you have

the video likes the AR15 rifle with a short barrel 16 inch although his is an SBR with a suppressor his total length is still about 16 inches 

the reload is really the time killer , the AR or other carbine allows for capacity not dependent on length , and the ability to load quickly as well as very controlled recoil and quick recover from shot to shot

at the end the video does explain that if you live in bullet button land or 7 round no AR land the shotgun starts looking a lot better 

his primary argument against the pistol seemed to be that with a carbine and sling going 2 hands free was easy , and with a pistol unless you remember a holster your mostly stuck holding it , that and ballistics , the carbine brings more energy to the fight and control.


I still see the pistol as a very valuable tool because you can keep it on you so much of the time being a draw from your gun vs a dash to the next room , but if it isn't kept on you it looses a lot of it's value


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> the other thing pointed out is while different brands of shotguns are similar , the controls between companies move all over for slide release , safety , loading while an AR is an AR is an AR all the controls stay put between brands


That's not much of an argument when no one is going to be picking up a different gun each time.

You learn to operate the one you have



> the reload is really the time killer , the AR or other carbine allows for capacity not dependent on length , and the ability to load quickly as well as very controlled recoil and quick recover from shot to shot


Shotguns can be topped off as you go, but realistically, this has little to do with "home defense" 

Some have trouble separating defense from actual combat or police training

I think he's just biased and wanting to promote the rifles when the truth is a shotgun works fine for the majority

People over think this stuff when statistics show what has worked in the past continues to work


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's not much of an argument when no one is going to be picking up a different gun each time.
> 
> You learn to operate the one you have
> 
> 
> 
> Shotguns can be topped off as you go, but realistically, this has little to do with "home defense"
> 
> Some have trouble separating defense from actual combat or police training
> 
> I think he's just biased and wanting to promote the rifles when the truth is a shotgun works fine for the majority
> 
> People over think this stuff when statistics show what has worked in the past continues to work



the guy doing the video was definitely a former police trainer and swat team entry guy , so much of his oppinon was coming from training cops and changes in departments probably saw a lot of cops used to one shotgun now going to another and having difficulties 

as a police trainer he was probably more biased to the carbine because of the training time involved 

recoil and recovery is important also , there is hardly a shotgun discussion that doesn't go into recoil , the carbine does definitely have less recoil

the real answer should be use whatever your most familiar with or willing to make yourself most familiar with there is no substitute for training and muscle memory. 

I am currently training several hundred rounds a month on a pistol at the range or competition 3-4 time a month and for the accessibility, portability and capacity my go to will be the pistol for now but that doesn't make it right for everyone.


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## JJ Grandits

My "go to" shotgun is an Ithaca 12ga. model 37 featherweight, 20" cylinder bore, with Remington rifle sights, no recoil pad. Been shooting it for 44 years. Length, recoil, capacity mean nothing to me. It holds five rounds but I never load it with more then three. Taken tons of Deer, Grouse, Woodcock, and shot skeet with it. Load three, never used more then two. You come into my home looking for trouble and you will find it. I know my house in the dark. This is not a demo or an educational tape or a debate. It's my house, my family, my gun. I seriously doubt I will use three. ---- good chance I ain't going to use two either. It's just the way it is.


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## Chuck R.

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> the guy doing the video was definitely a former police trainer and swat team entry guy , so much of his oppinon was coming from training cops and changes in departments probably saw a lot of cops used to one shotgun now going to another and having difficulties
> 
> as a police trainer he was probably more biased to the carbine because of the training time involved
> 
> recoil and recovery is important also , there is hardly a shotgun discussion that doesn't go into recoil , the carbine does definitely have less recoil
> 
> the real answer should be use whatever your most familiar with or willing to make yourself most familiar with there is no substitute for training and muscle memory.
> 
> I am currently training several hundred rounds a month on a pistol at the range or competition 3-4 time a month and for the accessibility, portability and capacity my go to will be the pistol for now but that doesn't make it right for everyone.


Well reasoned GCP!

I think there's one other aspect going for the carbine, and that's precision. A trainer once offered this perspective as to why he preferred the carbine:

"If you awake to a disturbance in your house and fine a BG holding a family member with a knife to his/her throat, what would you want in your hands?"

I shoot all three (pistol, shotgun, carbine), taken multiple classes in all three, but shoot way more pistol. I know if I had to take any kind of shot requiring precision, I'd rather have a carbine. not just because 4 pts of contact (2 hands, shoulder, and cheek) are better than two, but because I'm not worried about centering a pattern and that often found 9th pellet "flyer". 

I don't think there are any guarantees that the "fight" will be what we expected or trained for. So we all do our own risk assessment and plan/train accordingly. In the absence of hard facts (or a premonition of how things will happen), we must make planning assumptions; fight indoors at household distance, 1-3 BGs, nobody has body armor, etc. JJ believes a couple rds will be sufficient, Bearfootfarm is pretty sure he won't have to reload, and GCP believes his pistol he's trained with is sufficient. 

Chances are good everybody is correct. Chances are even better we'll never have to find out. But as my old CG told me; "it's not the things you don't know that get you, it's the things you knew, that proved to be wrong". So I kind of lean towards the worst case scenario. 


Chuck


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE

Chuck R. said:


> Well reasoned GCP!
> 
> I think there's one other aspect going for the carbine, and that's precision. A trainer once offered this perspective as to why he preferred the carbine:
> 
> *"If you awake to a disturbance in your house and fine a BG holding a family member with a knife to his/her throat, what would you want in your hands?"*
> 
> I shoot all three (pistol, shotgun, carbine), taken multiple classes in all three, but shoot way more pistol. I know if I had to take any kind of shot requiring precision, I'd rather have a carbine. not just because 4 pts of contact (2 hands, shoulder, and cheek) are better than two, but because I'm not worried about centering a pattern and that often found 9th pellet "flyer".
> 
> I don't think there are any guarantees that the "fight" will be what we expected or trained for. So we all do our own risk assessment and plan/train accordingly. In the absence of hard facts (or a premonition of how things will happen), we must make planning assumptions; fight indoors at household distance, 1-3 BGs, nobody has body armor, etc. JJ believes a couple rds will be sufficient, Bearfootfarm is pretty sure he won't have to reload, and GCP believes his pistol he's trained with is sufficient.
> 
> Chances are good everybody is correct. Chances are even better we'll never have to find out. But as my old CG told me; "it's not the things you don't know that get you, it's the things you knew, that proved to be wrong". So I kind of lean towards the worst case scenario.
> 
> 
> Chuck


well if you put it like that
your right I want the carbine also but don't really have one I am proficient with right now not the way I am with the pistol shooting it every week

by proficient I am meaning hitting a 2-3 inch target at any distance in my house knowing where to hold , most all of my long guns are sighted in much further , and I wouldn't know how low they were at 20 feet but every 2 weeks I know I will see a steel center of mass target with a 3 inch red swinging plate I know where to hold to hit that plate and not take the penalty for hitting the white


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## krackin

Back in the late '80's a situation similar happened just over the state line and a little north. The aggressor had his head crudely, but effectively, removed from his body. The surgical tool was a .50 Hawken replica using 90 grains of FF and a hand cast mini-hunter ball. Range, 10 feet, target, neck. Verdict, self defence.


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## Bearfootfarm

> Bearfootfarm is pretty sure he won't have to reload


That's true, but I also have a 26 rd backup Glock 23 that's my first choice for 2 legged intruders

It's easy to manufacture scenarios to fit a chosen weapon, but most will be as well served by a relatively cheap shotgun as by a high priced carbine


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## Bearfootfarm

krackin said:


> Back in the late '80's a situation similar happened just over the state line and a little north. *The aggressor had his head crudely, but effectively, removed from his body*. The surgical tool was a .50 Hawken replica using 90 grains of FF and a hand cast mini-hunter ball. Range, 10 feet, target, neck. Verdict, self defence.


You realize that defies the laws of physics?
That gun isn't capable of severing a head at any distance


----------



## krackin

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> well if you put it like that
> your right I want the carbine also but don't really have one I am proficient with right now not the way I am with the pistol shooting it every week
> 
> by proficient I am meaning hitting a 2-3 inch target at any distance in my house knowing where to hold , most all of my long guns are sighted in much further , and I wouldn't know how low they were at 20 feet but every 2 weeks I know I will see a steel center of mass target with a 3 inch red swinging plate I know where to hold to hit that plate and not take the penalty for hitting the white





Bearfootfarm said:


> You realize that defies the laws of physics?
> That gun isn't capable of severing a head at any distance


Absolutely. What happened was instant rag doll. Ever seen it? Severing of the spinal column, real forkin' ugly. Call up Oxford County Sheriff Dept. and see what took Richard Jacobs out. Just another day up here. 

What do YOU have for show and tell big boy? Any real action stories or just noise?


----------



## krackin

Still waiting on some stories. If they aren't real life we got ya.


----------



## Chuck R.

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's true, but I also have a 26 rd backup Glock 23 that's my first choice for 2 legged intruders
> 
> It's easy to manufacture scenarios to fit a chosen weapon, but most will be as well served by a relatively cheap shotgun as by a high priced carbine


Agreed, in fact the vast majority will never even have to use a weapon at all. A large percentage of that small minority that do, will be well served by whatever they have on hand. 

But I think you might agree; "adequate doesn't necessarily equal best" and I don't believe there's any penalty for "overkill", as in "could have stopped the threat with a cheap shotgun but utilized a high priced carbine", or better yet, "stopped a bad guy, but still had 28rds in his magazine.........such a waste". 

So why not go with a specialized weapon designed for the task? Something along the lines of some famous trainers quote of "if it's a fair fight, you're not trying hard enough". 

Now in JJ Grandits case, where he's 100% trained with his pump gun, hunts with it etc. VS a carbine that he hasn't trained on, or is not as familiar with, then I'd take the weapon you're more used to any day of the week. 

I think that makes it the "best for you". 

Chuck


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> So why not go with a specialized weapon designed for the task?


Cost is a big factor for many people

Some would have no use for the carbine aside from home defense, which means it will probably never be used

A shotgun more easily doubles as a hunting gun for most people


----------



## Bearfootfarm

krackin said:


> Still waiting on some stories. *If they aren't real life* we got ya.


Your severed head claim wasn't real life, and this isn't a story telling contest


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## Cornhusker

When we think of home defense, I think most of us picture someone kicking in our door, or sneaking in while we are asleep.
Most of us self reliant types probably sleep with a gun within arms reach, and what gun we choose is probably one we feel comfortable with.
I personally have a Glock 32 with a light for my bedside gun, I know people who feel better with a shotgun next to them.
If I have to go outside, say to investigate a disturbance in the chicken coop, I'll grab a carbine with a light.
There's no "one size fits all" answer, just run what ya brung and hope you don't have to use it.


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## jeeper55

My choice is a smith air weight 38 or a colt 380. i have a 357 but don;t like the noise or recoil.


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## krackin

Bearfootfarm said:


> Your severed head claim wasn't real life, and this isn't a story telling contest


Good job and well consider your fat ugly mule face slapped back and forth seven times until you dropped. I had do do some research and brother Rickey was actually gut shot, same .50. Oh sorrow. It was Bob Goiteue that was severed neck. What the ----, who cares.


----------



## krackin

Bearfootfarm said:


> Cost is a big factor for many people
> 
> Some would have no use for the carbine aside from home defense, which means it will probably never be used
> 
> A shotgun more easily doubles as a hunting gun for most people


You parrot the communists very well.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

krackin said:


> You parrot the communists very well.


let it go , this is looking far to much like baiting and name calling , I hate having to moderate so don't make me.


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## krackin

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> let it go , this is looking far to much like baiting and name calling , I hate having to moderate so don't make me.


I'll let it go on my part. Anytime anyone wants differently let me know. I'm always available. 

Thanks Pete. Most aren't so considerate.


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## BigWolf

Gray Wolf said:


> Big questions....really big...
> 
> Do you have a neighbors house you can see?
> 
> Do you have guests or family members living in your house?
> 
> Is your house made of wood?
> 
> A YES answer to any of them should rule out a rifle.
> A YES answer to any of them should rule out buckshot.
> 
> I keep handguns for home defense and select caliber and load accordingly.


Exactly what I was going to say. I have a 9mm Berreta I keep at home my rifle n shotguns are in safe.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

9mm penetrates walls also don't kid yourself it doesn't 


but light fast moving bullets constructed to fragment when they hit something don't penetrate as far as heavier bullets 

this guy found the time to do almost exactly the test I wanted to do http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html


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## Harv

It really doesn't matter what I, or these other folks have in the home for protection. *What matters is what your wife will be comfortable with.* Some women, just like men prefer a semi auto, and some like a revolver. The 9mm and .380 are both good rounds for women if she prefers a semi auto, or the 38 special in a revolver. check with friends and family see what they have that your wife can try out to see what she's comfortable with. The are some good hand-guns out there for under $500...buy used and you can get a good handgun for under $400. Kids will find them no matter where or how you hide them so be careful.......good luck


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## tamarackreg

If she, or anyone, LIKES a gun they will carry, fondle, practice and learn about it naturally - much, much more. All the while becoming more intimately familiar with it, and good with it.

That is the gun she needs. 

Now, next year...........


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## oldasrocks

A sawed off 12 gauge with Aguila mini shells if they would legalize a sawed off shotgun. Kel-Tec KSG 2nd choice but heavy. Serbu Super Shorty with the new Winchester Model 130 frame that's coming out soon is # 1 choice with the mini shells.


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## littlejoe

I live alone for the most part, but always beside my bed is a Beretta 9mm and my daily carry, which is a revolver... and also a 3 cell mag-lite. The Beretta's chamber is loaded and safety off. Capable of double action first shot... I do not like safeties on defensive firearms.

I used to keep a mini-14 and a 20 ga loaded with 3" buck beside the bed until I bought a safe. I'm out in the country. the yard is mine and everything around it. I got tired of putting things away every day, so opted for one that could be easily hidden when I leave in the morn. THey are just super handy! BUT...I do shoot them often, at targets, and as a carry gun it often comes out to take a shot or two at varying distances and objects.

If I have a choice of something to pick up, however...it would definitely be a rifle. The mini-14 has a large capacity clips, a scope on the top, and a combo green laser with a 200 lumens light on the bottom side.


----------



## littlejoe

I have also kept a Ruger 10-22 with 25 round clips loaded with better loads at my bedside....and felt that it was adequate.


----------



## Chuck R.

I wash re-hashing this and got to thinking of a couple other points based on Harv's post: *"What matters is what your wife will be comfortable with"*
and it brought to mind a couple more advantages for the AR/M4:

1. Light recoil; both my 11 year old and wife shoot mine pretty well. The stock on my M4 collapses and fits both. 

2. Cheaper training with either a dedicated .22 or .22LR conversion kit. My S&W M&P-15-22 pretty much mirrors my Colt LE6920 as far as operation.

3. Even with frequent pistol practice, either the shotgun or AR are easier for them to hit with. 

My Benelli M1S90 is a great gun, but with either buck or slugs it is a handfull. Not something my wife or 11 year old son enjoy shooting which limits the amount of time they'll practice with it. Even with cheap birdshot it's more expensive to use than a .22LR and I reload .223/5.56 for almost as cheap when buying components in bulk. I can (do) hand either one of the the M&P-15-22 and watch them clean an 8" plate rack in seconds at 25yards and have fun while doing it. 

11 year old "practicing" with .22LR:


The "real" thing, ready for use:
 

Chuck


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## Chuck R.

Just in case we haven't beat this dead horse enough, a pretty good article on ARs for HD from a guy that's actually "been there":

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/5/26/the-ar-for-home-defense-one-experts-opinion/

Chuck


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## beenaround

I'm more of a guy that will use the firearm like a hammer. shove a handgun in someones face and it will bring them to their knees while doing no harm to you unlike a punch. Even a woman can make that happen to a large man.

I treat every weapon as if it's loaded and cocked, but keep them loaded and unchambered. One of the reasons I like the SA XD 45 I have is the strength it takes to chamber a round, very difficult. Combined with the safety features and it's a safe weapon to have around and a real club if needed anyone can use.

I look at weapons as more than just things that go boom. I would avoid at great length discharging a firearm in a tense situation to avoid the horror of doing harm to anything not intended because living with yourself after is the hard part. As a club it's pretty much impossible to make living unbearable. 

We also have SOG hatchets, very easy to throw and stick and sharp as razors. My youngest daughter loves throwing one along with her knives.

An arrow is one of my favorites.

Discharging a firearm is a last resort, very last given it's uncontrolable consequences. I've been around them for decades.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE

beenaround said:


> *I'm more of a guy that will use the firearm like a hammer. shove a handgun in someones face and it will bring them to their knees while doing no harm to you unlike a punch. Even a woman can make that happen to a large man.*
> 
> I treat every weapon as if it's loaded and cocked, but keep them loaded and unchambered. One of the reasons I like the SA XD 45 I have is the strength it takes to chamber a round, very difficult. Combined with the safety features and it's a safe weapon to have around and a real club if needed anyone can use.
> 
> I look at weapons as more than just things that go boom. I would avoid at great length discharging a firearm in a tense situation to avoid the horror of doing harm to anything not intended because living with yourself after is the hard part. As a club it's pretty much impossible to make living unbearable.
> 
> We also have SOG hatchets, very easy to throw and stick and sharp as razors. My youngest daughter loves throwing one along with her knives.
> 
> An arrow is one of my favorites.
> 
> Discharging a firearm is a last resort, very last given it's uncontrolable consequences. I've been around them for decades.




I don't advise getting that close , to anyone , this may be how you work but I see it as poor advise , and I think any martial arts instructor is likely to agree there is not a good way to disarm you from 21 feet and your unlikely to win a race with a bullet ,but if you are close enough to stick a gun in a persons face your easily inside the range where they can disarm you and since your sticking a gun in their face they have nothing to loose trying in any way by any means that they can , groin kick , throat punch , eye gouge grab your gun and work that into a judo throw your close enough for any of it 

your justified or your not .period 

there may be extenuating circumstances where your in a crowd and the potential for a miss or over penetration to hit a by-standard would be an issue , but that is fairly unlikely.

you absolutely need to use your head and avoid the gun option where possible , but definitely do not give up your advantage 

statistics are not everything but what we do know is that the majority of all instances where a person defended themselves with a firearm they fired from just beyond arms reach and there was a verbal exchange that made it clear that the it was act or be a victim.


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## beenaround

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I don't advise getting that close , to anyone , this may be how you work but I see it as poor advise , and I think any martial arts instructor is likely to agree there is not a good way to disarm you from 21 feet and your unlikely to win a race with a bullet ,but if you are close enough to stick a gun in a persons face your easily inside the range where they can disarm you and since your sticking a gun in their face they have nothing to loose trying in any way by any means that they can , groin kick , throat punch , eye gouge grab your gun and work that into a judo throw your close enough for any of it
> 
> your justified or your not .period
> 
> there may be extenuating circumstances where your in a crowd and the potential for a miss or over penetration to hit a by-standard would be an issue , but that is fairly unlikely.
> 
> you absolutely need to use your head and avoid the gun option where possible , but definitely do not give up your advantage
> 
> statistics are not everything but what we do know is that the majority of all instances where a person defended themselves with a firearm they fired from just beyond arms reach and there was a verbal exchange that made it clear that the it was act or be a victim.


rather not be close, but probably will be. I'd probably not fire until fired upon and then that's where the boom part is needed. Just saying think of a firearm as more than a boom stick and pick one that can do double duty. Old English archers used 180 pound bows. They were so stout they doubled as a fighting staff. The talk these days is almost all about pulling a trigger, I disagree a lot with that.

Got 5 kids, 4 are trained in martial arts, 2 highly trained and trained in disarming people with weapons. We're good with our reasoning.

Because I don't keep them chambered if disarmed the person would find themselves at a great disadvantage pointing one leaving themselves wide open to a strike.

It's all part of a plan, but where I probably differ from most here, even though I and those around me are a match for just about anything, we rely on a promise. 

Unless the LORD watches over the city (house), the guards stand watch in vain.

IMO that's the truth of it.


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