# He doenst look good



## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

One of our Anatolians is just not looking right. Scruffy coat & not keeping weight. In April both dogs were wormed with broad spectrum. 
All winter this 4yr old was drinking out of muck puddles, plenty of fresh clean water available.
He doesnt get cheap food & has done well on it until now; usually a raw egg in it daily or some kind of drippings.
He also is sensitive to frontline & advantage but still has hot spots. 
Someone suggested he might have cocci. His stool looks normal.
Do I give him albon? Pen G? Im at my wits end & this dog is not someone you can just lead out & take to the vet.
Thanks in advance for your suggestions.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Can you get a urine and fecal sample to the vet? Doesn't really sound like a bacteria problem but maybe a kidney problem with infection. The vet could give you a seditive so he handle a trip to the vet better. I'm wondering about mange but its something you need a vet for especially with his senstivities problems. Good luck!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

One of my dogs used to have a lot of skin/coat problems and I had good luck giving him Fish Oil capsules and Vitamin E


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

mange is a good thought, several years ago on of our dogs had mange. I was pretty shocked, thought that only happened in dirty situations. Turns out thats not true and there is a couple different kinds of mange to boot. The one our girl had all dogs have some of these....mites I think they are...in their skin, but a stress situation will cause them to get overloaded and then the dog has an outbreak of mange. Ivermectin was the suggestion at the time, but we suspected some collie in her so couldn't have it. I had to shave her bald and dip her every day for a couple weeks.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Goat Servant said:


> Do I give him albon? Pen G? Im at my wits end & this dog is not someone you can just lead out & take to the vet.
> Thanks in advance for your suggestions.


I would worm him again. And since you don't use flea control do a ivermectin/prazi combo.
And if he does get hotspots a round of antibiotics wouldn't hurt. 
And did he have a DHLPP? You might think about lepto. Anatolians need strong injection regimes because they don't take as easily as most other breeds.


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

Mekasmom the only vacs he's gotten were in his first year. Are you saying ivermectin/prazi orally? Forgive my ignorance, what is prazi?
I just started putting a little fish oil in his food.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> what is prazi


 Praziquantel

http://www.drugs.com/vet/droncit-praziquantel-canine-tablets.html


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

If you cannot take him to the vet, then at least get a 7way from the farm supply store for him. Anatolians need repeated vaccines, more than other breeds, because their immune systems just don't react as well. There are actually scientific studies that have been done on antibiodies in different breeds. Anatolians have weaker, slower forming immune systems than many breeds of dogs, and they need extra immunizations for the same effect. Here's some links on that subject, and you could look up more. 
http://www.terrificpets.com/articles/10271465.asp
http://www.mahalo.com/anatolian-shepherd-dog/


Dogs are wormed monthly with their HW preventative. If you don't use flea control products, the dog probably has tape worms too. Praziquantal will kill them. There are ivermectin/Prazi combos on the market, for instance IverHeart. And if nothing else, you could get the prazi/ivermectin combo for horses and use a tiny bit. It's sold for about ten dollars as the worming paste for horses. Your vet could give you a dosage. But remember it would be a TINY bit of the stuff, pea size or smaller. Don't try to self medicate without help from your vet with large amounts of the stuff. Your vet would give you a small dosage of the stuff, never large. But IverHart is available without a script, and only costs about $5 a month anyway plus it's metered in the correct dose in pills, so it's just easier to use.
http://www.iverhart.com/

DiMethox is effective against coccidia if you don't have Albon, and it's cheaper. Your vet could help you with a dosage, or you could find it on the web.
[ame]http://www.google.com/search?q=Dimethox+cocci&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a[/ame]


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

> If you cannot take him to the vet, then at least get a 7way from the farm supply store for him.


 You don't mean the cattle 7 way do you? We can't get canine vacines OTC here especially rabies, which would be a bare minimum for protecting human health if nothing else! Just curious since we don't have the same easy access as Americans for vacines.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

You might be able to find a vet willing to come out to your place for vaccinations. Make sure you have the dog confined first, and make the vet's job easy. I second doing a fecal check.


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## Sarah J (Jun 28, 2003)

Ross said:


> You don't mean the cattle 7 way do you? We can't get canine vacines OTC here especially rabies, which would be a bare minimum for protecting human health if nothing else! Just curious since we don't have the same easy access as Americans for vacines.


Ross, yes we can get the canine vaccines OTC, everything but the rabies. Here in Iowa it's the law that a veterinarian has to give the Rabies vaccine so it can be documented properly, but the others can easily be obtained OTC


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I knew it was much easier in the USA but I am curious about the 7 way. What does it cover?


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Goat Servant said:


> Im at my wits end & this dog is not someone you can just lead out & take to the vet.


If your large animal vet also works on dogs, perhaps you can have the vet come out and take a look at him? If he's not keeping weight yet his stools are normal, you'll probably want to do some blood tests before you go treating him with wormers, vaccines, or antibiotics.


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## CarolT (Mar 12, 2009)

Iverheart shouldn't be available OTC unless it doesn't have enough to be effective. Heartworm die-off can kill a dog that is given Ivermectin if they haven't been on preventative. That's why a prescription is required.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

you need to have a vet look at him.
Albon is a fairly safe antibiotic and used for coccidiosis. but it is best the vet see him.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I knew it was much easier in the USA but I am curious about the 7 way. What does it cover?


http://www.google.com/products/cata...=X&ei=i4kDTo7QDcLZgAfE-byMDg&ved=0CDMQ8wIwAQ#




> $4 online
> 
> Protects Against Seven Canine Diesease Caused By Canine Distemper, Canine Adenovirus Type 1 & 2 Also Protects Against Parainfluenza, and Parvovirus, L Canicola and Icterohaemorrhagiae
> 
> ...


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Ross said:


> You don't mean the cattle 7 way do you? We can't get canine vacines OTC here especially rabies, which would be a bare minimum for protecting human health if nothing else! Just curious since we don't have the same easy access as Americans for vacines.


Not a cattle vaccine..... DHLPPC.. There's another vac in it too, but I don't remember it?


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

CarolT said:


> Iverheart shouldn't be available OTC unless it doesn't have enough to be effective. Heartworm die-off can kill a dog that is given Ivermectin if they haven't been on preventative. That's why a prescription is required.


You are mistaken. Ivermectin given to a HW+ dog does not kill them. It's commonly given to reduce the load. And, yes, Iverhart is OTC in the correct dosage. I have purchased it many times.

Here is a link to a post I wrote earlier with the links to the subject of ivermectin and HW positive dogs. I don't want to retype it, so I will just put the link. I listed several links on the subject.
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?p=5141314&highlight=heartworm+ivermectin#post5141314


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

mekasmom said:


> You are mistaken. Ivermectin given to a HW+ dog does not kill them. It's commonly given to reduce the load.


It's not the Ivermectin that can kill them, it's the sudden die-off of adult heartworms that can kill them. If the dog gets to exercising too hard, a dead worm can dislodge from the heart and into the lungs, causing a pulmonary embolism. When you treat for heartworms, you have to keep the dog calm and quiet for about 2-3 months until the heartworms are flushed out of their system.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Giardia (sp?) can cause these symptoms however most of the time it causes more serous problems such as diarrhea.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

mekasmom said:


> Not a cattle vaccine..... DHLPPC.. There's another vac in it too, but I don't remember it?


Thanks and it makes it clear for folks visiting their local farm supply store asking for a 7 way vacine. I would hope the person behind the counter would ask what it's for but I wouldn't really expect it! Not very useful to zap your poor pup with Covexin or Tasvax! Anyone reading this can be sure to ask for the Canine version! I don't really mind hauling my dogger to my vet for her shots, but I can see a benefit to getting the basics covered on your own!


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Wolf Flower said:


> It's not the Ivermectin that can kill them, it's the sudden die-off of adult heartworms that can kill them. If the dog gets to exercising too hard, a dead worm can dislodge from the heart and into the lungs, causing a pulmonary embolism. When you treat for heartworms, you have to keep the dog calm and quiet for about 2-3 months until the heartworms are flushed out of their system.


But ivermectin doesn't kill the worms off quickly. It doesn't kill adult heartworms. It does shorten their lifespan, but doesn't just kill off a bunch of them. I have seen the vets give it to HW+ dogs many, many times to reduce the load of mircorfilarae. It's common, and they don't die. Authorities wouldn't suggest it if it were going to kill the dog. Immiticide is much more dangerous because it does kill adult worms.

You can look through the links I posted before from the experts if you are confused about it.
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?p=5141314&highlight=heartworm+ivermectin#post5141314

http://www.heartwormsociety.org/pet-owner-resources/faqs.html#q32

http://books.google.com/books?id=g_...esnum=3&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.heartwormsociety.org/veterinary-resources/canine-guidelines.html#7
Look right under the chart on that page.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...eDMTz-&sig=AHIEtbStpycmhz7svRmp9OYq55Du06mQYA
see section 7 on that one about using ivermectin on HW+ dogs.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

mekasmom said:


> But ivermectin doesn't kill the worms off quickly. It doesn't kill adult heartworms. It does shorten their lifespan, but doesn't just kill off a bunch of them.


No, it doesn't cause a massive die-off, but if one worm dies and gets into the lungs, it can kill the dog. I discussed this at length with my veterinarian when I found out my Akbash had heartworms, and this is why I opted to go with Immiticide--at least then, I knew WHEN the adult worms would die, and I could keep my dog calm and quiet for the duration.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

I was curious, how does one keep an LGD calm and quiet? Especially if it's summer and it's hot. I know mine gets upset if he's confined, so it's not like I could lock him in a crate without his BP going thru the roof. LOL


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Wolf Flower said:


> No, it doesn't cause a massive die-off, but if one worm dies and gets into the lungs, it can kill the dog. I discussed this at length with my veterinarian when I found out my Akbash had heartworms, and this is why I opted to go with Immiticide--at least then, I knew WHEN the adult worms would die, and I could keep my dog calm and quiet for the duration.


I think this is just something we have to agree to disagree on. I do know for a fact that vets give ivermectin to HW+ dogs. I have seen it done many times, and even the links I posted say the same thing. I understand that your vet does things differently, and the choices you make are yours. All owners love our pets, so choices owners make can differ.

There is a price difference too, immiticide is the $800 price tag as compared to the $15 price tag of ivermectin. Some owners cannot afford immiticide, some dogs can not take the drug due to one issue or another, and some vets just choose which option is best for the dog due to the load level. I can honestly say that I have never heard or seen ivermectin kill a HW+ dog, and according to what I heard at the office, it hasn't ever happened to any of the dogs they have cared for. And since ivermectin doesn't kill adult worms at all, I don't see how you could fear it causing a worm to die? Immiticide is much more dangerous. Plus when the dogs get the shots some of them scream, especially the little ones. That drug is just cruel. Merial makes fortune off of it, so it's pushed hard. And, they have cut back production, so the prices will go up even more due to their new "shortages".


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

mekasmom said:


> I think this is just something we have to agree to disagree on. I do know for a fact that vets give ivermectin to HW+ dogs.


Yes, they do. My veterinarian gave me that option, but for the safety of my dog, I wanted to know WHEN those adult heartworms would die, so that I could keep him confined during that time. Otherwise they could die off one by one, and if he should get to running after something when one happens to die, and it went into his lungs--bam--dead dog. I don't know why you want to convince me that it couldn't happen. My vet agreed that it's a risk, maybe small, but it wasn't a risk I was willing to take. Others may choose to do it differently, and I don't have any problem with what others choose to do if they are informed of the risks.



> There is a price difference too, immiticide is the $800 price tag as compared to the $15 price tag of ivermectin. Some owners cannot afford immiticide, some dogs can not take the drug due to one issue or another, and some vets just choose which option is best for the dog due to the load level.


My vet charged me about $300 for the Immiticide injections. My dog didn't "scream" when he got the IV injection, he panted a little, and then he was fine. Far worse was keeping him confined for three months!


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## birdiegirl (Nov 18, 2005)

Many vets do recommend using ivermectin in heartworm positive dogs; these are dogs that are already severely debilitated from the disease and would not tolerate the immiticide treatment....as well as in cases where the client simply cannot afford the cost of the immiticide treatment. 
The ivermectin does not kill the adult worms, it simply kills off any of the microfilaria circulating in the blood. The adult heartworms eventually die off at the end of their life cycle, which averages 2 years. In the meanwhile, the dog is still at risk from developing congestive heart failure from the still present adult worms, as they will continue to do their damage as long as they are present.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Your dog didn't have the immiticide injections if he had an IV. The immiticide is given as a shot deep in the loin. Your dog may have had the arsenic solution mixed up by the vet himself? The drug name stars with a "C" --caparsaline or caparsalite or something like that? I can't remember the name, but it is arsenic given in an IV with ivermectin to follow. We had a dog back in 85-86 that had the IV arsenic solution for heartworms too. He was positive when we adopted him. It is much cheaper than immiticide. I think we paid just under 300 back then, and he stayed in the hospital overnight for 2-3treatments 12hrs apart. But it is an older drug and not the FDA recommended treatment of today. 
Immiticide is a drug from Merial that is given deep in the muscle of the loin. The injection hurts, and dogs do not like it. It's especially hard on small dogs.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I did a google search. The drug is caparsolate. Basically, it's arsenic. They all are in one form or another.

http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&t...gc.r_pw.&fp=27b93cf21cbb40b9&biw=1280&bih=598


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