# He's Out There



## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

He's out there. Him and hundreds more just like him, right in your own area.

I just had an applicant who has 6 felonies on his record. He claims that none of them are his fault. 2 assaults, 2 breaking and entering, 2 drug dealing. Poor guy thinks he really has bad luck about being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The issue is that he can't see any connection between his own actions and what happens to him.

He was whining that there is no motivation for a felon to clean up his act because nobody will give him a job or a place to live. I guess with 6 felonies already, you wouldn't expect him to understand the concept of doing the right thing just because it is the right things to do.

He thinks one of his felonies is really unfair because his cousin broke into a house to rob it but he, himself, didn't steal anything. He just went in to find something to eat in the kitchen, because he was hungry.

So he's out there and if TSHTF, he can't see any problem with breaking into your house to get something to eat, and maybe assaulting you in the process. Because, after all, he's missing the concept about right and wrong.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

That's really something to think about now, since economy is getting worse for most. I know there are more robberies happening around HSV area.

And most felons will always figure it was not their fault, just bad timing, or being misunderstood, etc.

It will most likely get worse.


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Sheesh, in Ohio being arrested is almost like a badge of honor; felonies just "happen ya know." I was born in this godforsaken area but my parents wisely whisked me away when I was 2 and let me grow up where I learned about your "permanent record" and kept mine pretty clean. (No arrests but bad credit due to a horrific divorce.) However, Ohio cops are really stupid; I called them when I was being abused. When I didn't write out a report in 15 minutes (my mother, law school grad, told me to be very careful what a I set to paper), they threatened to _*"take me in" for wasting their time*_ though they'd seen bruises! 

I live in a house with a young Ohio felon--he was indeed unlucky and stupid--nice kid...

But he never committed a violent crime...


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

I have met a felon or two over the yrs. Some are repentant and have learned their lesson. There are IMO those that just don't care to change and think that everyone owes them and are "out to get them". I go to church with one guy who was a drug dealer and spent yrs in prison. He turned his life over to God and has done well. I consider him a good friend and would trust him with anything I have. Some will never change because they don't want to.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Luckily for the rest of us, someone with 6 felony convictions (meaning he got caught 6 times) probably isn't smart enough to survive more than one or two encounters in a SHTF situation.

It's a sad fact though, there are a lot of folks who don't think twice about stealing, robbing, and in some cases killing to get what you've got. Keep your powder dry!


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

oregon woodsmok said:


> He was whining that there is no motivation for a felon to clean up his act because nobody will give him a job or a place to live. I guess with 6 felonies already, you wouldn't expect him to understand the concept of doing the right thing just because it is the right things to do.


This quote of his in particular is probably the only honest thing he said.

I've known ex cons and the difficulty to obtain honest work compared to the ease of sinking into old habits is very clear to them. You don't have to wait for shtf for these guys to get stupid, they do it every day, now.

That's why he had 6 felonies instead of 1. :shrug:


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

oregon woodsmok said:


> He's out there. Him and hundreds more just like him, right in your own area.
> 
> I just had an applicant who has 6 felonies on his record. He claims that none of them are his fault. 2 assaults, 2 breaking and entering, 2 drug dealing. Poor guy thinks he really has bad luck about being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The issue is that he can't see any connection between his own actions and what happens to him.
> 
> ...


My husband has a couple of speeding yickets otherwise squeaky clean...and licensed to be around children....and he cant find work....

My neighbors who are criminals the dad plead guilty to rape on a plea bargain and claims he did not do it.....who in their right mind would plead guilty to that?
Same guy's son "accidentally" shot someone in the face with a deer rifle during a road rage incident:nono:
Funny how bad records follow good people:umno:


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

Oregon Woodsmok - I really do understand your point. It is pretty reasonable to conclude a 6 time felon has clearly set a pattern that shows he may be a threat, even before shtf.

This is a touchy subject for me. My main problem is some of the crimes that are classified as felonies are so stupid. Then there are dispicable acts that are classified as misdemeanors, or other less than felony convictions. Regardless of how the crime is classified, our penal system does zero to "rehabilitate" anyone. Some cannot be rehab'd, but ones who could seldom get much of a means to do so. 

In North Carolina, (IDK if it's just our state, or if it's common practice) a person on probation can choose to pay money vs. doing community service hours. :shrug: That just seems stupid to me. The state or county will accept dollars in exchange for active experience of some kind that might actually help someone form good habits. ?

Through no desire of my own, it happens that I've come across countless felons in my job, and there are a few folks I've known personally for years that fall into that lumped category.

A particular fellow comes to mind. As a 16 year old, he got a felony drug conviction and adult prison time for a few years. He's now 32 and is not perfect, but he's very smart, a talented mechanic, and extremely personable and friendly. He never has, and never will be able to be employed in a traditional manner because of he record. He hasn't been in trouble since. He does odd jobs, some auto fixer uppers, I guess what you would call self employed, but can't make a wage that really supports a person.

I would much rather hire this guy than a sicko who beats his wife or children, or the double degree holding nutjob who is a stalker, etc. etc. Today's job market has become such a manure pile anyhow.... 
:soap:
Okay sorry for the drift.

Again, I do see the valid point in the OP. I think there are those all around us who are the "blame everyone but me for my troubles" type. As part of our survival skills, we should be looking to recognize them regardless of the papers we can access on them.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Guess so many of us are just plain lucky not to have committed any crimes. Yep= just lucky............


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Sometimes it really is bad luck, but those are the minority. 

A young man we used to run with did 6 years in state prison. His crime? Going partying with the wrong bunch of guys. While he was passed out cold in the back seat of the car, they robbed a store. 

First the guy who went in and threatened the clerk got caught. He ratted out the lookout guy for a plea bargain deal. Then the lookout guy ratted out the driver and got a nice plea bargain, too. Then they picked up the driver and he ratted out our friend. Friend had nothing to bargain with, so he did more time than the rest of them put together, in spite of the fact he had a clean record prior to that. It is really sad what 6 years in prison did to a once happy go lucky young man. He came out a different guy, a hard and angry one. 

Six felonies, yeah I think you judged that guy about right. But a one-time offender, you might want to listen to the whole story.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Well just feel I got to throw this one out, The worst ones are not convicted!
That is they have no record,due to what ever.
You think that guy was bad, Lots of entitled folks in this country.
All walks and persuasions! 

But the way Our law system works, I would actually review the charges a little bit.
Police care about arrests, Prosecuters care about convictions,Judges about their record,and lawyers about their pay. 

You have money you can fight and maybe walk, still have the arrest on your record though. If you ---- poor, you either take a chance and let a public defender represent (Remember lawyers care about their pay above) or you plea out. A plea is basically just a reduced conviction,saving the PA some time and effort and earning brownie points with the Judges.

Its not to hard to break the Law now a days. Just matters who you are and who takes notice.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Wrong place, wrong time, right now, will just get a fella another 'mark' on his record... wp/wt, after a shtf, will get a fella a 'mark', and two holes... one bodily and one in the ground. I have a half dozen gents on a 'list' now, that I don't wanna see here now... if things got really bad.................


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

texican said:


> Wrong place, wrong time, right now, will just get a fella another 'mark' on his record... wp/wt, after a shtf, will get a fella a 'mark', and two holes... one bodily and one in the ground. I have a half dozen gents on a 'list' now, that I don't wanna see here now... if things got really bad.................


I think that is what will likely happen to most of them. I doubt most will make it past 6 months.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Pearl B said:


> I think that is what will likely happen to most of them. I doubt most will make it past 6 months.


It depends upon how many of them form into a wolf pack.


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## blufford (Nov 23, 2004)

I don't think anyone can learn from a mistake if they are always in denial.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

I have always told my kids:
"Nothing good happens after midnight"
"Bad company corrupts good character"
"What you do in this moment may have consequences for the rest of your life, Choose Wisely"


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## udwe (Aug 8, 2009)

What about all the times he didn't get caught!!


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Luckily for the rest of us, someone with 6 felony convictions (meaning he got caught 6 times) probably isn't smart enough to survive more than one or two encounters in a SHTF situation.


I agree...it's the criminals who are smart enough not to get caught that will be the real threats.


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## Pouncer (Oct 28, 2006)

Sad to say, I have a cousin that falls into this category. I'll be expecting him should SHTF, because he knows, or thinks he knows, what I prep.

He has no idea how good I am with a shotgun, and that's something anyway


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

And just think, after the SHTF, there will be no way to do a background check on people...


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

NickieL said:


> And just think, after the SHTF, there will be no way to do a background check on people...


but there will be....

After you've disarmed them, have them take off their shirt and pants, and circle around. 

Got Tats?

Tiny "Mom" on the shoulder, well, ok...

Tatted up royally, sorry, guilty as hell.

Oh, open sores and rotting teeth are a nice giveaway also...


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

not so true tex...I have a friend, single father of three girls, loves tats. His whole back is a beautiful piece of art....


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

I learn that you cant trust a felon. I gave a good recommendation a company about one and in 3 weeks he stole several things and was back in to the same problem he had before he was sent to jail.


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

I've noticed that the only thing a felon is sorry for is getting caught. I have a grandson who can turn on the tears and remorse like a faucet when he's caught -- doesn't mean a tear or word of it. Is there a cure for stupid?


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## lathermaker (May 7, 2010)

I have a neighbor that ended up with his butt in Prison for aggravated theft. When he was about 12 years old he stole a bicycle....His holier than thou mother said it wasn't his fault because the people left the bicycle outside their door.... Then him & some buddies stole a bunch of gas from our other neighbor..again, the grandmother got him off with a slap on the wrist. The mother should have spent less time preaching to other people and more time raising that hoodlum kid.

After he got out of Prison he moved in with the Grandmother 1/4 mile down the road. She was as bad or worse than the mother defending this POS. I told my husband to get a dead bolt lock on the front door and start locking it when he went to bed. For once he didn't argue with me.

Supposidly this kid has straightened his act out, but I don't trust him with a ten-foot pole around our property.

I'm really worried about how this world is headed down the toilet.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

NickieL said:


> not so true tex...I have a friend, single father of three girls, loves tats. His whole back is a beautiful piece of art....


I know there are exceptions to all rules...

Alas, my prejudice is showing.... I'd take in a person with numerous scars over a person that'd willingly mutilate their bodies. Of course, if the scars looked self inflicted, that'd be a zero brainer also.

Does anyone come out of State or Federal Pen's without getting their bodies all marked up?


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

texican said:


> but there will be....
> 
> After you've disarmed them, have them take off their shirt and pants, and circle around.
> 
> ...





NickieL said:


> not so true tex...I have a friend, single father of three girls, loves tats. His whole back is a beautiful piece of art....





texican said:


> I know there are exceptions to all rules...
> 
> Alas, my prejudice is showing.... I'd take in a person with numerous scars over a person that'd willingly mutilate their bodies. Of course, if the scars looked self inflicted, that'd be a zero brainer also.
> 
> Does anyone come out of State or Federal Pen's without getting their bodies all marked up?


Usually one can differentiate the prison tats from the pro tats easily. I don't have any tats and don't plan on getting one.


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## boiledfrog (Jun 2, 2011)

I keep hearing how property crimes and violent offences keep going down...then again politicians have been lowering taxes my whole life too.


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

Goodness, lotta judgin goin on here.

I feel fortunate I've known enough people of all kinds of backgrounds, raisin', and preferences for decoratin' themselves to realize my instincts and internal gut tell me so much more than I think some other folks allow themselves to deduce.


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## Ataraxia (Jun 12, 2012)

I find it interesting that a couple posters on this threat are exhibiting behaviors that would be considered admissions of premeditated murder plans and just waiting for the right circumstances to carry them out. Legally that would make them no different than the felons they dislike so much save they have not yet killed someone, yet.

As for the United States legal system, we ask for a harsh 1700s style penal system combined with Beccaria's advice that judges should only judge whether one committed a crime or not and barred from considering any extenuating circumstances. Then we blend it with a system which feeds on creating more crimes to keep the cells full. especially for private, for-profit prisons.

I will agree that our society will not forgive or forget someone their crimes even after they have served a full sentence rather than released early for good behavior. How exactly does one start a new life if their record of even one offense, given this economy, will likely keep them from a decent job? Legally a company cannot state that convictions, even felonies, will prevent them from hiring someone, but the truth is they almost always do regardless of the crime.

Are there some who are labeled and permanently scarred because of both our justice system and how society treats them for the rest of their lives? Yes. Are there some who cannot be rehabilitated? Yes. But how much of that latter point is because we focus more on punishment than really trying to prevent repeat offenses?

Perhaps the person in the opening post needs to think about asking for the details of the offenses to fully understand the character of the person. And perhaps the person who appears to be a repeat offender needs someone to give him a chance to make something of himself but be a firm guide on what is acceptable and what is not.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

texican said:


> I know there are exceptions to all rules...
> 
> Alas, my prejudice is showing.... I'd take in a person with numerous scars over a person that'd willingly mutilate their bodies. Of course, if the scars looked self inflicted, that'd be a zero brainer also.
> 
> Does anyone come out of State or Federal Pen's without getting their bodies all marked up?


_Mutilate_? Oh brother. I'd say what's showing is a bit stronger than "prejudice". 

Yes, they do. There's a State Pen nearby and most of the guys out of there are, in fact, _not_ tatted all up. 



Possum Belly said:


> Usually one can differentiate the prison tats from the pro tats easily. I don't have any tats and don't plan on getting one.


Not necessarily. I have a very simple black tat on the inside of my wrist that has been mistaken more than once. DH has a matching one and he had a new guy at work believing he'd done hard time because of his. Which is hilarious in and of itself because my husband is the most level headed, non-violent person I've ever met. Takes a LOT to even get him mildly upset. 

It's also not my only tattoo. I've never been arrested, let alone in jail or prison. I do have a moving violation (speeding ticket) and one accidental parking ticket. Didn't realize the main street in a nearby little town had overnight parking ordinances. Not that I would have moved the vehicle anyway... I'd been drinking and left it sit til morning. Obviously, me and my tattoos are a serious threat to society. Lock up your children!


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Ladies and Gents - 
this is not General Chat.

And tattoo's are not something I would get, my daughter told me they hurt when happening and I'd not like it.
Yep, she has 3. her initial and flurishes about 3 inches by 5 in the small of her back. And a chinese happiness symbol on her ankle and something similer somewhere else - I forget where, it can cover up when necessary.

And she has her tongue pierced - fortunately she did that when I was not around and she lived in California.

And she has no arrests, maybe a speeding ticket, and in some ways is even more business like and such now that she's grown. But early 20's was mildy a bit wild.

I think a lot of piercings and tatts become ugly, but a few can be tastefully done, oh well.

And I'd say the type of tattoo's may say more than the quantity of them. That would show me at least a former mindset of a person.

Angie


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

> And I'd say the type of tattoo's may say more than the quantity of them. That would show me at least a former mindset of a person.


Curious what types of tattoos you believe correlate to what types of mindsets. Would you elaborate?

What if a guy has a dragon on his arm. What does that say about his "mindset"?

What if, instead of the dragon, he has a tribal band in the same spot? 

What is a girl has a butterfly on her ankle? What if that same girl has a gun on her ankle instead? What would those say about her "mindset"?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

olivehill - I'm not turning this into general chat.

If you want to try to tear me apart, try this topic elsewhere.

I know what I deem correct for me to judge people on, along with situations and dress, and even smell - and how my bones react to them.

Just cause you want to make an issue out of it, I'm not playing.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

What in the world are you talking about? I wasn't tearing you apart, I was curious about your perception.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Okay - in that case, sorry I took it wrong....

I'd say anything normal looking and not really goth, or vampire with blood dripping would be reasonable.

I'd say all black, or black and blood dripping or really gory skulls would make me take a double look at things.

A wrist or ankle tattoo of a wreath of flowers, decent words, or children's names or the like - reasonable.

I guess the dark, blood, Edgar Allen Poe and murder inspired stuff would cause me to reassess.

Flowers, many dragons, dragonflies, butterfiles, MOM, hearts, military, etc - would not cause me to do much double take,

Does that explain better what I mean?


I have had one issue with piercings. And I did ask someone very pierced about it. How do they blow their noses with big nose rings or studs? They did say it would be carefully.
(this was in a MacDonald's and I asked very respectfully and not in a put down manner).

So, it's a total package and where, and dress, and even the countenance on their face at the time of the encounter. And how my bones feel.

I hope I answered your question better. And I'm sorry I snapped at you.


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## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

Thanks. That's interesting and no apology needed. 

I know lots of people with tattoos and it's always kind of interesting to see what they choose and then other people's reactions to them.

ETA: I tend to be drawn to the black and white (black and flesh? LOL!) tattoos and never really thought about the fact that it might be viewed as more sinister by some. I just find them pretty and am not a big color person in general -- most of my closet is full of black and white shirts and jeans. So I found that part especially interesting.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Well- there does seem to be two orientations here.
One- felonies can be an accident, there are usually circumstances that make good people get caught by the evil justice system, and it's societies fault that such felons are not given trust and all the help they need as soon as they get out if not sooner.
Two- yeah right.
A friend took me out when I was super-stressed for a couple of drinks. She said when she got to her car afterwards that she felt I should drive. I said fine. I immediately pulled out into the oncoming path of a car, who seriously yelled at me, which I scarcely noticed. 
If I had hit that car, I would have been totally guilty. When I was sober, I understood that and have never drunk alcohol at a point where I could even think about driving. 
That is how you thank God that you did not hurt anyone with your stupidity and learn from the lesson.
And that is how you keep out of trouble- by accepting that it was your fault. If I had been arrested, I would still accept it was my fault and deal with the problems that I caused myself.


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## Pouncer (Oct 28, 2006)

My niece has a lot of tats. I really dislike most of them. I mean really, who puts cherries (as on a slot machine reel) on your bosom *that* big? And a star. And Betty Boop, and whole bunch of other stuff. Any comfortable clothing in warm weather, exposes the tats and usually the colors all clash horribly. 

However, she's comfortable with it. But some are starting to fade and look muddy...her choice of course, but I've learned to look directly at her face, instead of take in the whole picture. Ah yes, chartreuse, rose, dark red, pale blue, black, faded orange....all goes well with a neon green tank top. 


Not, lol!


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

MO_cows said:


> Sometimes it really is bad luck, but those are the minority.
> 
> A young man we used to run with did 6 years in state prison. His crime? Going partying with the wrong bunch of guys. While he was passed out cold in the back seat of the car, they robbed a store.
> 
> ...


Sounds like this young man didn't see the value of not only getting the best lawyer he could afford, but a BETTER lawyer than he can afford.

You cannot fault a youngster for being young and stupid, but someone should have pointed out the repercussions this will have on his life. He might have balked at having to pay a few extra thousand dollars for a good lawyer with the skill to get him off. But someone should have warned him of the greater costs over a lifetime.

If he really cares, he might be able to get an attorney who can help get his record expunged. Time served, stupid mistake of youth, good behavior, your honor, let's not ruin this young man's life and expunge his record of all mis-doings.

I'm not a lawyer, but I overslept this morning and had a good cup of coffee.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

lathermaker said:


> I have a neighbor that ended up with his butt in Prison for aggravated theft. When he was about 12 years old he stole a bicycle....His holier than thou mother said it wasn't his fault because the people left the bicycle outside their door.... Then him & some buddies stole a bunch of gas from our other neighbor..again, the grandmother got him off with a slap on the wrist. The mother should have spent less time preaching to other people and more time raising that hoodlum kid.
> 
> After he got out of Prison he moved in with the Grandmother 1/4 mile down the road. She was as bad or worse than the mother defending this POS. I told my husband to get a dead bolt lock on the front door and start locking it when he went to bed. For once he didn't argue with me.
> 
> ...


Reminds me of an ancient Roman fable about a boy who stole and his mother defended him each time. He's a good boy, and smart. Maybe if people weren't so dumb, he wouldn't be able to steal from them. The boy grew up and progressed to murder. When he was caught and taken to the gallows, his mother still defended him, but the judge didn't acept it. If to the hangman's noose. 

Just before his execution, he asked his mother to come close to tell her something. As she leaned close to him, he bit off her ear! She jumped back and cursed him "You wicked, stupid boy! How could you do this to you're poor mother?"

He spat her ear to her and said, "Mother, maybe if you had raised me better, instead of defending my crimes, I wouldn't be facing the hangman's noose! You get what you deserve!"

Stuff like this has gone on for ages.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

I have to share because well....people do change.... TRUE STORY!
My dad was a heavy drinker and in a few bar room scuffles before rehab did him a bit of good....he got all kinds of tattoos while under the influence and only one while quite sober and on his knees begging God's forgiveness....and never to prison or even jail to my knowledge....
you see the priest asked him to kindly dress up the naked lady on his forearm before returning as a full fledged church member.....and so wanting to be tasteful but not to endure so much pain he had a bikini applied...the priest was hoping for more but since dad was sober that's about all he could take pain wise....

I have no tattoos but I've seen some tasteful ones.....I do have some battle scars from broken glass and accidents but none from self infliction!


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## Ataraxia (Jun 12, 2012)

After being a lurker for awhile and just posting yesterday, I am not certain if Angie's comment about not turning this into General Chat was directed at my post or not. If it was, it was not my intention to cause conflict. If it was not, at least I will know.

There is an important lesson in not presuming that you know someone you see on the street simply by exterior appearances. People are seldom one kind of person. We as a society, particularly our criminal justice system, enjoys giving everyone one or more labels. Those labels can create someone over time that would be a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Interestingly, many of the same characteristics that the field of criminal justice theory has found to be traits of juvenile delinquents and adults are also ones that cross-reference with high-IQ/gifted children, independent thinkers and from observing this site, even homesteaders. I prefer to view people on their individual merits rather than simply label them for preconfigured treatment without the need to think.

People make bad choices, everyone who is honest with themselves and others will even admit it, so none of us has room to say we are better than another in that respect. The difference is whether we want to forever punish someone for an error in judgment so that no matter how hard they try, we will only see the error rather than the effort to change direction.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

How do you feel about someone with the same mistake over and over - such as the 6 charges the Opening Post mentioned?

And welcome to the forum. A new point of view may just be a good thing to get us thinking more.


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## Wilbur (May 7, 2004)

Ataraxia said:


> Interestingly, many of the same characteristics that the field of criminal justice theory has found to be traits of juvenile delinquents and adults are also ones that cross-reference with high-IQ/gifted children, independent thinkers and from observing this site, even homesteaders. I prefer to view people on their individual merits rather than simply label them for preconfigured treatment without the need to think.
> 
> People make bad choices, everyone who is honest with themselves and others will even admit it, so none of us has room to say we are better than another in that respect. The difference is whether we want to forever punish someone for an error in judgment so that no matter how hard they try, we will only see the error rather than the effort to change direction.


You are certainly within your right to treat people as you deem appropriate. I took from the OP that this was a person who 1) has not learned from their mistakes (6 felonies?) and 2) doesn't see stealing as that big a deal (he "only" got something to eat). 

In a world where anything CAN happen someone like this would make me nervous too. I could well be wrong and he might not steal or do anything wrong. But if they do things wrong during "good" times, what do you have to go on that suggests they would act "right" when things go bad in society? And while I may be wrong, the risks of my making a bad decision about someone are too great to warrant the risk. I don't have fire insurance on my house because I EXPECT my house to burn down, but because the risk is too great if it DOES burn down. Why risk something with someone who has already proven to make poor decisions. I see no reason to risk my family on the off chance this person will decide to change once society goes to hell. And if, as you suggest, there is a correlation to intelligence, that simply makes me all the more concerned- now I have to deal with someone who is willing to be a criminal, sees it as someone else's fault, and is smart.

Just my $0.02.


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

Well, I have never been able to justify spending good money, on "body Art" for myself.
I have had a couple dear ladies offer to pay for a nice Thor's Hammer tattoo. But, I just never got around to it. I do wear a silver Thor's Hammer on a chain around my neck, every day. I reckon at this late age of my life, I'll just pass on getting a tattoo. I don't need it.
ETA.......It's my experience that whether a person wears a tattoo or a few, is not a determining factor in whether they have ever been a Felon, convicted or not.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

AngieM2 said:


> Ladies and Gents -
> this is not General Chat.
> 
> And tattoo's are not something I would get, my daughter told me they hurt when happening and I'd not like it.
> ...


Prison tattoos tell a lot too......and knowing them CAN fit into a 'Survival / Prep" listing.
Knowing what tattoos represent / the facility the person was locked up in / the gangs he ran with......
This information is right on their 'sleeve' (pun intended!)

Tattoos like that tell a story......one that tells you what that person *was* all about, or *is* all about. It's good to know the meaning behind that kind of ink.


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## Ataraxia (Jun 12, 2012)

To clarify, not all tattoos are good nor bad, not all criminal histories are good or bad, and not all people with traits considered "deviant" are good or bad. What I consider to be a bad trait or policy is to say X always means Y and it cannot change. It may mean that due to X, one may need to see if there is A, B, C and so forth that may lend support to the concern raised by X. However, if X is there, but they have G, H and are working on A as counters to their X quality, it is possible they have learned something and are needing positive feedback and reinforcement to keep improving.

Also, when I use the term "deviant" I use it in the criminological sense of going against societal norms, whatever they may be. Homesteading ideas and concepts can be just as deviant from the social norms of the United States dominant culture as someone who has most of their body tattooed. One could make a snap decision about both homesteaders and heavily tattooed people.

As for someone with a felony record, depending on my personal read and discussion with them, I might want to give them a firm mentoring experience if I hired them to show that person I am willing to give them a chance to improve their life, but they need to make changes in their life starting right then. If we write off all repeat offenders, perhaps we should just give them all the death penalty? It seems few people want to give someone a chance to reintegrate into society because of the stigma felons have, especially repeat felons. There has to be an option to rehabilitate and mentor them to become better than what they were which put them in the situation to become felons.

I highly doubt all of you forever hold mistakes against everyone you know. If you did, your family, friends, coworkers and others you interact with regularly would likely either cease to interact with you or effectively live down to your expectation that they cannot learn from their mistakes and become better people. As I work in the field of criminology I work to find ways to prevent or alter conditions that push people toward criminality versus other life paths. Are there some who are highly resistant to reintegration because of deep issues? Are there others who simply were in the wrong places with the wrong people on more than one occasion? Are there some that fall between the two extremes? The answer is yes to all three. However, simply going on the opening post comments I am not going to judge the person described. I have no way of knowing for certain if strong mentoring and support would help that person or if he needs to have a more predictable, controlled environment that might be more conducive to a better life, short of another round of imprisonment.


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

agreed. awesome post above ^^^


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

> As I work in the field of criminology I work to find ways to prevent or alter conditions that push people toward criminality versus other life paths.


I find this interesting. How does this work with Surviving and/or prepping you or them for the world that IS and the world that may be the extreme version of the end of the world.

And it does explain some of the comments and outlook. Something fresh to put in our midst.


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## TerraFarm (Jun 4, 2012)

oregon woodsmok said:


> He's out there. Him and hundreds more just like him, right in your own area.
> 
> I just had an applicant who has 6 felonies on his record. He claims that none of them are his fault. 2 assaults, 2 breaking and entering, 2 drug dealing. Poor guy thinks he really has bad luck about being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The issue is that he can't see any connection between his own actions and what happens to him.
> 
> ...


I realize this is my first post ever on this forum, but I have to say this: You are correct-these people have NO sense of right and wrong, along with that they have a sense of entitlement-they are entitled to whatever you have because they want it, or think they need it. The Government is empowering these people to take and take from everyone by paying them to do nothing at all. Sit home, buy drugs with the government benefits instead of food. They cannot steal drugs for drug dealers are well armed against this, so they BUY drugs and STEAL food, and others belongings. 

OK. I'm off my soapbox. If there is anything that burns me, it's the fact that my family works like dogs to survive, and these people feel they can take what they want. 

Oh and Hi! I'm Rosie!


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Hi Rosie - welcome to the forum.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

A statement that appears extremely impractical to me is that you should not judge a person based on their past mistakes. Does that mean you have to avoid showing caution when dealing with a person who has done crimes until you see him do one, probably to you?
If a person behaves in a way that acknowledges that his mistakes were his, then I would be much more likely to trust them. It's the person who blames his actions on "the wrong crowd" or "drugs" or "being drunk" or a number of other things who is still not going to make the right choice to avoid hurting other people. He has to recognise that not associating with the wrong crowd, doing drugs, getting drunk, etc is the place where he has the choice to do the right thing.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

To insure my place in the unfashionable reactionary crowd, I don't like tattoos either. But only because I remember seeing all those elderly men who got tattoos when the were very young and entered the military in WWII.
Do you know what happens to those as you get older? The tattoos become smudgy blobs of blurred color. It ends up looking like someone beat on them. Ug-i-ly.........


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## TerraFarm (Jun 4, 2012)

where I want to said:


> A statement that appears extremely impractical to me is that you should not judge a person based on their past mistakes. Does that mean you have to avoid showing caution when dealing with a person who has done crimes until you see him do one, probably to you?
> If a person behaves in a way that acknowledges that his mistakes were his, then I would be much more likely to trust them. It's the person who blames his actions on "the wrong crowd" or "drugs" or "being drunk" or a number of other things who is still not going to make the right choice to avoid hurting other people. He has to recognise that not associating with the wrong crowd, doing drugs, getting drunk, etc is the place where he has the choice to do the right thing.


I agree. In my family we call this "To Man Up" my sons have learned that if they acknowledge that they made a mistake, and can work to make good, it's much better than blaming everyone or everything else for the action that they did. 
Act like a man (or woman I suppose) and you will be treated like one.


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## TerraFarm (Jun 4, 2012)

AngieM2 said:


> Hi Rosie - welcome to the forum.


Thanks!!


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## TerraFarm (Jun 4, 2012)

where I want to said:


> To insure my place in the unfashionable reactionary crowd, I don't like tattoos either. But only because I remember seeing all those elderly men who got tattoos when the were very young and entered the military in WWII.
> Do you know what happens to those as you get older? The tattoos become smudgy blobs of blurred color. It ends up looking like someone beat on them. Ug-i-ly.........


Eh, I don't normally concentrate on ink as far as judging a persons character. However, you have a point-those things get nasty looking when the skin droops naturally. I can't wait until 30 years from now when all those girls with the lower back tats that were so attractive, so they thought...find that their tats meet the backs of their knees...


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## Ataraxia (Jun 12, 2012)

AngieM2 said:


> I find this interesting. How does this work with Surviving and/or prepping you or them for the world that IS and the world that may be the extreme version of the end of the world.
> 
> And it does explain some of the comments and outlook. Something fresh to put in our midst.


How it works with surviving and/or prepping is to realize right now one cannot take things at face value. There are social strains on everyone. Sometimes financial and social strains can push otherwise people up against metaphorical walls and do things they generally would not do. There is also the outcome of labeling people early on and then reinforcing those labels to the point that we as a society create what we label.

I work on the side that tries to deal with the causes, and they are diverse, of crime so that it is dealt with when one can more easily change the path than later when the criminal justice system incarcerates them and it takes significantly more resources to change the path.

It also means I try not to go with snap reactionary judgements rather go with observing before acting or speaking. In a survival situation, or even day to day living, thinking carefully often beats acting in haste. I have seen people outwardly upstanding in appearance do and say very unwelcome things to others while also seeing people who look like they might be threats do things that were exceedingly and unexpectedly kind for someone in need.


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## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

Now that's right ya'll...you can't judge a book by it's cover, nor a girl by her tramp-stamp..uh...I mean tattoo.


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## Ataraxia (Jun 12, 2012)

TerraFarm said:


> I agree. In my family we call this "To Man Up" my sons have learned that if they acknowledge that they made a mistake, and can work to make good, it's much better than blaming everyone or everything else for the action that they did.
> Act like a man (or woman I suppose) and you will be treated like one.


I concur. However, I have also seen those who admit and acknowledge their mistakes get harshly put down for taking ownership of them. Some are able to let it slide off and stay true to owning up to future mistakes despite completely negative feedback. Others learn the lesson over time from repeated examples of being cut down for owning up that it is better to not get caught making a mistake or covering it up. Or worst of all, internalizing that they will receive the same response for responsible behavior as they do irresponsible behavior so they learn to see no difference between the actions as they are punished with the same level of negative feedback. The longer that situation is reinforced, the harder it is to rehabilitate someone, but it is still possible.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

olivehill said:


> _Mutilate_? Oh brother. I'd say what's showing is a bit stronger than "prejudice".
> 
> It's also not my only tattoo. I've never been arrested, let alone in jail or prison. I do have a moving violation (speeding ticket) and one accidental parking ticket. Didn't realize the main street in a nearby little town had overnight parking ordinances. Not that I would have moved the vehicle anyway... I'd been drinking and left it sit til morning. Obviously, me and my tattoos are a serious threat to society. Lock up your children!


I'll send these guys to tattoo friendly retreats...








and









Perceptions are sometimes stronger than reality... in the present world, a person can meet another one, and 'grow' on them, letting their kind personalities show through... In a highly stressful end of the world scenario, decisions will need to be based on immediate perceptions. Mother Teresa, if she arrived in Black Leather, nose rings, mouth fang piercings (talk about freaks), and all tatted up, would (till further investigation) be in the same boat as these saints pics above.

If one engages in activities, that certain groups engage in, one should expect for the non-informed stranger to assume that the "one" engages in the same. I should know. While in college, I looked like a hippie. Most of my adult life, I've looked like a dead head (Grateful!). I was a few years out of college before I ever even heard the Dead, and of course, I fell in love. Yet, I never went to a single concert... not my cuppa tea. But, "fellow" dead heads think I'm a dead head, and those who know what a dead head is, assume (and we know what that'll do for you and me!) I'm a dead head. I can sing the songs, to get myself through any jam.

IF the shtf, and I had to hit the road, I'd be getting the scissors out and cropping my face mop down to a short stubble (what could be expected of a refugee on the road).

Btw... your tiny tatt, if I recollect, didn't disqualify you... reckon I should've posted a pic (worth a thousand words!)

----------------------------------
How does one evaluate strangers? when your life and your family is on the line? Ted Bundy was apparently a neatnik...

One could tell me all the skillsets they have, but telling is different from doing... the easiest physical test I could give would be a handshake. Soft hands? Sorry... Rough calloused hands? tells me the person has been familiar with hard manual labor. Of course, crazed psycho killers might have rough calloused hands... No matter what tests you have, there are always going to be exceptions.

My plan is dissuading anyone from even getting within several miles of my place...negating the need for daily tests... if one has 'daily tests' of strangers, I'm thinking each and every test has a harsh pass\fail threshold.... only one fail, and everyone you care about fails, permanently.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

But that is the major problem- expecting to have other people reward you for "good behavior." 
I remember one man saying to me in absolute shock "I told you the truth and now you are penalizing me for it." Well- duh. Only your Mommy will reward you for fessing up and then only til you are age 5 or so. In the real world, you monitor yourself and your "reward" is thinking well of yourself. And if you are clearly true to the best value always , a few others might think well of you too. Maybe.
We all like external validation but it's rare. The real world is not going to constantly pay attention to you and if that is what you expect, you've got serious disappointment coming.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

where I want to said:


> *But that is the major problem- expecting to have other people reward you for "good behavior." *


OH MY GOSH.......
I was just saying this last night.
We are trained from birth that if we do the right thing we get a prize.
Tell the truth? mommy and daddy throw a parade.
Make your bed? mommy and daddy give you 20.00 and throw a parade.
So naturally when we get older we think: Ok, do the right thing and I get my prize......
They are always workin' for the prize.
The lack of Character and Integrity is astonishing.



> I remember one man saying to me in absolute shock "I told you the truth and now you are penalizing me for it." Well- duh. Only your Mommy will reward you for fessing up and then only til you are age 5 or so. In the real world, you monitor yourself and your "reward" is thinking well of yourself. And if you are clearly true to the best value always , a few others might think well of you too. Maybe.
> We all like external validation but it's rare. *The real world is not going to constantly pay attention to you and if that is what you expect, you've got serious disappointment coming.*


Once you get out of school (be that high school or college) there will be no one out there to stroke your ego, and feed your 'good boy' needs.
We are so institutionally raised / trained......when we get out in the real world it blows them away. 
Unfortunately, as Character and Integrity die off, this type of self-absorbed person tips the scales. There seem to be more and more of them....every year I grow older.
Sad.


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## Ataraxia (Jun 12, 2012)

texican said:


> My plan is dissuading anyone from even getting within several miles of my place...negating the need for daily tests... if one has 'daily tests' of strangers, I'm thinking each and every test has a harsh pass\fail threshold.... only one fail, and everyone you care about fails, permanently.


If you are planning to defend a radius of several miles from your home I presume you have a very large defense force and have no plans to want relations with other survivors, not even for trade or mutual aid after a disaster.


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## Ataraxia (Jun 12, 2012)

where I want to said:


> But that is the major problem- expecting to have other people reward you for "good behavior."
> 
> The real world is not going to constantly pay attention to you and if that is what you expect, you've got serious disappointment coming.


I am not asking other people to reward good behavior as understand that if someone starts out with ambiguous metrics for determining appropriate from inappropriate behavior, they will learn do to what gives them the least amount of negative consequences with the best personal reward. That may be socially acceptable or it might not. One might internalize that helping others is the best reward another might internalize that it is better to just do what benefits the self over others.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

a quote of a removed post was here.[/QUOTE said:


> I adopted one...its called Reactive attachement disorder....one of my neighbors not previously mentioned..
> Living with demons | The Kennebec Journal, Augusta, ME


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Ataraxia said:


> If you are planning to defend a radius of several miles from your home I presume you have a very large defense force and have no plans to want relations with other survivors, not even for trade or mutual aid after a disaster.


I happen to live miles from neighbors.

The one road leading here, will be destroyed, culverts removed, timber felled. I'd rather deal with humans on foot, than humans in armored vehicles. Have no illusions that my 'defenses' will stop everyone/thing. But, it should stop those in the immediate aftermath... those people that'd rather hit a soft easy target right on the highway, than walking miles on iffy roads.

Hopefully, the main highway bridges will also disappear or be disabled, routing out of area refugees elsewhere. 

Once the grasshoppers have died off, the road would be opened. The ant's already know where I live. Mutual aid would be iffy, even in a rosy scenario... communication with non prepped individuals over a ten mile distance would be difficult if not impossible. How would one give mutual aid to your neighbor three miles away? if 'they' have no radios? and response would be by foot, or horseback?

I think I'll have better luck in disablement and concealment, than I would with road signs saying 'I have food, water, and shelter... come on in"

What are your plans, for post apocalyptic human relations? Remember the pass/fail threshold is harsh.

I practice a forced gregariousness... naturally prefer the absence of crowds and strangers...


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

I don't have much issue with tattoos. They seem to be "in" right now and lots of basic ordinary people are getting them.

However, anyone with "skinhead" and swastikas tattooed on his face, or blue tears or spiderwebs tattooed on his face, is going to have to put a little extra effort into convincing me that they can be trusted. I believe they are making a pretty serious statement about who they are when they put things like that on their face.

There is a world of difference between a rose on an ankle and jailhouse tattoos and hate words tattooed on a face.


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## wogglebug (May 22, 2004)

"Birthmarks, scars, tattoos and other distinguishing marks."

Questions for official ID - police records, passports, etc.

I'm not necessarily going the whole "grey man" thing, but I'm not going to brand myself with a distinguishing mark they can use against me, either. In fact, I think anyone who does mark themselves up hadn't thought things through before they did, and an inability to think things through is not something I need in people around me.

That being said, one of my sons has two moderately small professionally-done tats. I think, though, that just proves my point.


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## farmboyJD (Jul 21, 2011)

Ataraxia said:


> Are there some who are labeled and permanently scarred because of both our justice system and how society treats them for the rest of their lives? Yes. Are there some who cannot be rehabilitated? Yes. But how much of that latter point is because we focus more on punishment than really trying to prevent repeat offenses?
> 
> Perhaps the person in the opening post needs to think about asking for the details of the offenses to fully understand the character of the person. And perhaps the person who appears to be a repeat offender needs someone to give him a chance to make something of himself but be a firm guide on what is acceptable and what is not.


I've given several people chances. No more. Never again. I'm tired of their crap. I do know some people who have been in jail that are fine individuals, that I trust completely, but they are the exception. At this point in time, if someone needs a "chance" they need to keep going.


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