# Am I that thick headed?



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Got caught up in the 9mm vs .45 debate awhile back.
The point was made that the 115gr 9mm critical defense was the ultimate self defense round.
I agreed that it is a good round and I actually carry it in my concealed carry gun. However if I had the choice I prefer my .45 loaded with Federal +p in 230gr hollowpoint.
I swear, it was like I insulted his mother!
The guy kept referring to the recent article in the American Rifleman stating how incredibly wrong I was.
It could be my advanced years has slowed the oxygen uptake by my brain and that as time has passed, due to a number of seriously blows, my skull has thickened. But I contend that in a defensive situation that one would normally encounter the afore mentioned .45 would be more than adequate.
And than it hit me, those damn Covid shots really screwed up peoples brains. Notice how nobody can drive for scrap anymore?
Is it just me?


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## LostPotter (3 mo ago)

I feel that a lot of people lost the fact that other people have needs and lives after being shut in their homes and limited on what they can do in public for so long. The little bit of respect that people had for each other has been lost. 

I'm always scared that if I had to use my firearm that it would have to much power as in I would make a good chest shot and have the possibility of hurting someone else in the background.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Keyboard experts exist in all fields, and they are usually the most sensitive. Some just seem to struggle to grasp that what works for them won't work for someone's grandmother.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Sometimes, arguing isn’t worth the time, energy, or frustration.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Sometimes, arguing isn’t worth the time, energy, or frustration.


I disagree vehemently...


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I assume you mean the .45 acp and not .45 lc. 

I don't have anything that takes .45 acp. Is it as easy to find and reasonably priced as 9 mm?


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Easy to find but somewhat costly.


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## Adirondackian (Sep 26, 2021)

Im with you I think the .45 is the superior round. The 9mm lacks stopping power. I can give you examples Ive witnessed myself but I dont want to get too graphic.

At any rate it doesnt really matter as each situation is different. Carry the round that you feel most comfortable with.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Adirondackian said:


> Im with you I think the .45 is the superior round. The 9mm lacks stopping power. I can give you examples Ive witnessed myself but I dont want to get too graphic.
> 
> At any rate it doesnt really matter as each situation is different. Carry the round that you feel most comfortable with.


Can you define stopping power?

That’s a rhetorical question. That’s an old metric that was made up to fuel these very arguments specifically because it couldn’t be calculated empirically, and allowed the arguments to continue to the satisfaction of those choosing to argue about it.

You can put a number on energy, penetration, expansion, round count and even temporary and permanent wound cavities, but there’s no empirical measurement of “stopping power”.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

The DW's choice is a Sig 9mm. I've shot it - meh. Racking it is a PITB but it holds a nice number of rounds.

But for me it a 45 anything. 1911, long colt, .454 casull, 45-70 lever, etc. It always comes down to the fact that .45 ACP doesn't carry as many rounds and they cost more. Another meh. I try not to get into gun fights and I don't (usually) enjoy throwing bunches and bunches of rounds for the heck of it.


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## Adirondackian (Sep 26, 2021)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Can you define stopping power?
> 
> That’s a rhetorical question. That’s an old metric that was made up to fuel these very arguments specifically because it couldn’t be calculated empirically, and allowed the arguments to continue to the satisfaction of those choosing to argue about it.
> 
> You can put a number on energy, penetration, expansion, round count and even temporary and permanent wound cavities, but there’s no empirical measurement of “stopping power”.


Well actually there is plenty of empirical measures but maybe not alot of analytical measures.


*empirical


ĕm-pîr′ĭ-kəl
adjective*

*Relying on or derived from observation* or experiment.
Verifiable or provable by means of observation or experiment.
*Guided by practical experience and not theory*, especially in medicine.
Ive observed, first hand, the stopping power of both. IMO empirical evidence is the most reliable. What happens in the lab or on the spread sheet is really irrelevant. What happens in the field, in real life is all the matters.

For those that know, the .45 has more stopping power, its not even an argument.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Adirondackian said:


> For those that know, the .45 has more stopping power, its not even an argument.


Stop isn't the same as to kill or disable. To stop a 'critter' one only has to hit an appendage with the appropriate projectile. And maybe a follow up if the critter tries to defend. Or, for you folks that have livestock or pen critters, just one. A .45 does that effectively and quickly. Yup, good shots count in both cases. You can stop a critter with a 9mm just as you can a .45. How good are you? Can you hit the sweet spot? Do you know the sweet spot? Do you know how to end a situation with a critter without ending its life? Just the noise?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Adirondackian said:


> Well actually there is plenty of empirical measures but maybe not alot of analytical measures.
> 
> 
> *empirical
> ...


That’s exactly why I asked if you could define it; specifically to head off such an unsettleable debate. But, for the record, I do happen to be one of “those that know”, and I can tell you that no pistol caliber owns the claim to “stopping power” over another. As a credential, at a past job, I designed, prototyped in my basement, tested in my creekbottom, submitted and was awarded an FBI contract for a Duty round (incidentally, but not importantly, in 5.56)- one of only two that are accepted at any given time.

The FBI has an interesting methodology for testing and accepting Duty rounds. Velocity, accuracy, expansion, and weight retention are all judged and scored on a relative scale, but what separates the winning rounds from the losing rounds is penetration. The highest scoring round in any test will be the one that puts its rounds nearest to 16” in ballistic gelatin, regardless the standardized barrier it is shot through.

Why 16”? There aren’t many places on a human body where 16” of penetration won’t pass completely through, which represents wasted energy, and there is no place on the human body where it requires 16” to strike vitals.

That’s precisely why the FBI test is so interesting (which is also loosely replicated by all of DHS, so, DHS and DOJ, ie. 90+% of all federal LE). The FBI didn’t select those numbers arbitrarily. To arrive at 16” (again, for both pistol and carbine rounds), they did a deep-dive analysis of every documented shooting in the US, and keep their model up to date as every new report lands at the Ballistic Research Facility.

To make use of this data, they catalog every shooting by caliber, bullet type/brand, weapon barrel length (so expected velocity), barrier type (light clothes, heavy clothes, glass, sheet metal, plywood, etc.), location struck, number of strikes, timeliness of medical care, and last, but not least, mortality. Then, they took those weapons and loadings that have proven to be the most effective at quickly stopping/incapacitating the target, and shot them at ballistic gel, through various barriers, under laboratory conditions.

So, while it seems like the laboratory testing is arbitrary, their metrics are actually driven by thousands and thousands of deeply analyzed real-world shootings (_probably even more than you have analyzed in the crafting of your declarative statement that the .45 possess some non-existent ability that can neither be tested nor proven_), and they a continually update their testing and check it against real world results.

The FBI and agencies of DHS have now both selected 9mm. The current 9mm duty round outperforms its equivalent loading in .45 ACP from the same manufacturer.

I carry both .45 and 9mm and, on occasion, .40 S&W. I’m not taking a position that one is “better” than the other. I’m simply pointing out that “those who know”, and know WAY more than you, have done exhaustive testing, both laboratory and real-world AAR, and came to the conclusion that your declarative statement is bunk.

…on the other hand, I have heard more than a handful of bored old fat guys hanging around at the gun shop who 100% agree with your position, so, I guess, it does have that going for it.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

JRHill02 said:


> Stop isn't the same as to kill or disable. To stop a 'critter' one only has to hit an appendage with the appropriate projectile. And maybe a follow up if the critter tries to defend. Or, for you folks that have livestock or pen critters, just one. A .45 does that effectively and quickly. Yup, good shots count in both cases. You can stop a critter with a 9mm just as you can a .45. How good are you? Can you hit the sweet spot? Do you know the sweet spot? Do you know how to end a situation with a critter without ending its life? Just the noise?


Exactly. If there were actually a thing called stopping power, it would probably be hydrostatic shock. Hydrostatic shock is often confused with temporary wound cavity, but they’re not the same thing. Hydrostatic shock does more than puff out bruising and tearing into flesh, as in a TWC. Hydrostatic shock is a unique effect of the rotational energy of a bullet being slowed down. It is the effect that can liquify soft tissue in a 6 or 8 in radius, and the one that can stop a heart or seize a brain even if it never comes within several inches of the thing.

You also hear “those who know” argue about the hydrostatic shock merits of 9v40v45, except that the RPMs necessary to impart a hydrostatic shock effect don’t even get started until you get a given bullet to 2100-2300fps, and doesn’t really make its hay until you’re at 2500fps+, and doesn’t do much below 50gr terminal weight.

So, if there was such a thing as “stopping power”, it wouldn’t be something that applied to pistols. It would belong almost strictly in the realm of rifles. Pistols kill by one of two methods; breaking the brain, or poking holes and causing blood loss, and a 9mm can easily create as large a wound cavity as a .45.


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## HomeCreek (Dec 30, 2021)

Danaus29 said:


> I assume you mean the .45 acp and not .45 lc.
> 
> I don't have anything that takes .45 acp. Is it as easy to find and reasonably priced as 9 mm?


I love any 45 but I especially like my 45lc. Handloads in my 8.5 inch barrel 454 casull makes the 45lc as powerful as a 44 all day long. I EDC a small 9 with a 12 round capacity and 15 with extended mag because it will fit in pockets etc and doesnt let itself known to be on my person. But at home I have a 45lc on the night stand next to my pillow. I just need enough distraction to get me to the 450 Bushmaster side charger 5 feet away in the corner lol I have taken wild boar and whitetail deer with 45lc in a revolver out to around 40 yards with a good factory load meant for newer firearms.


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Everybody knows that the 9mm can blow your lungs out.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

JJ Grandits said:


> my skull has thickened.


Your OP is titled "Am I that thick headed?"
Well, I spent all of Saturday morning processing a pig. He was pretty thick headed and I dispatched him with a single 22lr thru the top of it. The round demonstrated satisfactory stopping power.

Thousands of zombie threads over caliber debate are stumbling across the internet.
When it comes to social work, I'm pretty sure 99% of what I would have to shoot at would stop after being hit by most any common sized bullet. You are welcome to link back to my statement for use in other discussions or list me in the footnotes of any published article.

Practicality matters. Granny doesn't need an 8lb Desert Eagle.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I once had a gun salesman tell me I would never stop a burglar with a .22. I said if that .22 is a hollowpoint and followed by a few of his friends I'd better hit something vital. Then he said what if the burglar was wearing a bullet proof vest? I said I'm pretty sure bullet proof vests don't cover thighs (femoral artery) or the groin, both reasonably sized targets. I didn't buy anything at that store. I didn't want that salesman to have a chance to look at my driver's license. Paranoid? Maybe. His conversation just felt "wrong".


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

basically it is a horse a piece

most all your self defense rounds that Meet the FBI penetration specs go more than 12 inches and less than 16 inches in 10% ballistic gel after 4 layers of denim

basically all of common 9, 40, 45 are calibrated to stop reliably in a 4 inch window of performance if you watch a bunch of gel tests you find they typically are less than a 4 inch spread in many cases

a 45acp is .452 inches and a 9mm is .355 inches

0.452-0.355=0.097 and half of 0.097 is 0.0485 or about 2 thicknesses of the cardboard on a paper ammo box

SO ask your self this , when does 0.050 inch make a bad shot a good shot ? that is basically the difference between one side of the line on a paper target and the other sure it gets you score but in the real world if you miss the heart by .050 or .100 is it a big change in effect?

could 45 be made more powerful it could be and it would go past that 16 inch mark basically the FBI wants a bullet to reach vital organs on normal people without being a huge over penetration risk . imagine your a cop shooting a bad guy in a crowded street , you want to be effective , you don't want to hurt a bunch of by standards or go through the wall after passing through the bad guy in an apartment building where you got called for a domestic and the husband came out shooting at the police in hallway.

Basically neither are a death ray , people walk to the ambulance having been shot with either and people die on the spot having been shot with either.
with a narrow window of performance between one and the other shot placement is everything.
so what ever you can get the better shot placement with wins 

a handgun especially 9,40,45 is not a rifle nor a shotgun your arguing over less than the energy difference of a 22lr in many cases your arguing the defense between a 22short and a 22long rifle standard velocity 

your arguing over like 30-50 fpe not 300 vs 3000 like the difference between a pistol and a 12 ga slug even a slug needs decent shot placement to work


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> basically it is a horse a piece
> 
> most all your self defense rounds that Meet the FBI penetration specs go more than 12 inches and less than 16 inches in 10% ballistic gel after 4 layers of denim
> 
> ...


How would you, in your understanding, factor the impact foot-pounds into the above?

Also, the bullet itself (I'm talking pistol bullet velocities here)? A round nose vs one of those evil fragmenting hollow points?

I have done a lot of reloading, .45 factory ammo is expensive esp in the stuff heavier than ACP and even ACP too. I have done a lot of experimenting. Never do I load a casuall or modern 45-70 hot. Double duh. But for ACP or LC I do have some boxes labeled HOT. Not sure what to do with these but unload the rounds.. These are always within the specs of the Hornaday or Nosler specs for the powder. But other than the noise and recoil have I ever fathomed an advantage to hot loads. In fact it is the opposite. Theoretically they are higher FPS and (may) shoot flatter but again, how good are you with the sweet spot?

Pete, appreciate your wisdom.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

I'm not sure a lot of folks would get your cardboard example.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

JRHill02 said:


> I'm not sure a lot of folks would get your cardboard example.


10 one dollar bills laid flat and press all the air and wrinkles out that is 0.050 inches


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Are there any openings? I prefer $20. Those C notes get too much attention. They are all the same thickness? Certainly $100 is thicker than $1, right?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

JRHill02 said:


> How would you, in your understanding, factor the impact foot-pounds into the above?
> 
> Also, the bullet itself (I'm talking pistol bullet velocities here)? A round nose vs one of those evil fragmenting hollow points?


A .45 ACP and a 9mm+p are generally almost identical in ft/lb of energy. Their difference is usually within 1% or so, but they go about achieving that energy in different ways. A .45 generally throws a heavier projectile, while a 9mm generally throws it faster. It’s the difference between being punched by Mike Tyson or Bruce Lee. If either one landed a good punch, most mere mortals are on their ass, and wouldn’t have still been standing if they were punched by the other one instead.

If I had to choose between a FMJ and a hollow-point for a defensive round, I’d take a hollow-point .380 or even .32 over a FMJ .45 or 9mm. Any bullet that passes through is wasted energy. The purpose of a hollow point is to keep that bullet in the target, delivering 100% of the energy it had on tap. It’s entirely possible to have a lowly .32 ACP deliver more energy to a target than a 9 or 45, if the bullet construction has a say in the matter.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

TY, appreciate your explanation. But a 9m at x amount of powder and a .45 at the same? Of course not equivalent. The .45 has a bunch more propellant and it needs it. So why are the ft-lbs similar? Is this about force wasted to recoil? Mass vs velocity is proportional, disregarding the diameter. I've always kicked that one around. With projectiles its interesting.

Be patient with me, I only have books and a Chrony. And As I mentioned I never noticed an advantage to hot loading.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

JRHill02 said:


> How would you, in your understanding, factor the impact foot-pounds into the above?
> 
> Also, the bullet itself (I'm talking pistol bullet velocities here)? A round nose vs one of those evil fragmenting hollow points?
> 
> ...


any energy that leaves the target is basically wasted energy so if a bullet has enough power to go through the target and keep going , while 2 holes can be better than one in things shooting deer that you want dead and want to track and recover.

you don't want a man dead you want him stopped from continuing in his violent behavior that might cause you death or great bodily harm, you also don't probably want a bullet that keeps going and going

the FBI standard is a round that falls in that 12-16 inch mark they find that often bullets do not exit people or if they do they exit with less than enough energy to be lethal .

they often find that if a bullet does pernitrate a man clothing often stops the bullet on the back side

flatter doesn't mean much at self defense pistol distances even at 50 yards your talking minimal drop probably less than half your best group size

plenty of people have been stone dead from a 22lr while many a person has walked to the ER with pistol round 3 times more powerful in them

shot placement is critical

needing more rounds in target might be necessary with anything pistol so if your shoot a HOT round that takes your sights far off target and longer to recover from the recoil is it worth it?

a way to think of it is say you have eight 405fpe rounds in gun A and sixteen 365fpe in gun B
gun A has 3240 total fpe to deliver and gun B has 5840 fpe to deliver in all ways they are the same weight and size

also what gun monkey just said about most good self defense loads, or like I said earlier "a Horse a piece" which I realize is a central Wisconsin colloquialism for "6 of one, half a dozen of the other" not everyone may have gotten that reference.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> a way to think of it is say you have eight 405fpe rounds in gun A and sixteen 365fpe in gun B
> gun A has 3240 total fpe to deliver and gun B has 5840 fpe to deliver in all ways they are the same weight and size


So you are saying its the total of the available ammo that is significant. Not the well placed shot, regardless of the caliber, which is of course theoretical cause everything is moving.... I sure get that.

Anything I shoot has to be absolutely still. hah! Jokes aside, this is a major thought.

This is why I like the 45-70. If I miss, it falls into the hole and I can run up and club it with the stock


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

JRHill02 said:


> TY, appreciate your explanation. But a 9m at x amount of powder and a .45 at the same? Of course not equivalent. The .45 has a bunch more propellant and it needs it. So why are the ft-lbs similar? Is this about force wasted to recoil? Mass vs velocity is proportional, disregarding the diameter. I've always kicked that one around. With projectiles its interesting.
> 
> Be patient with me, I only have books and a Chrony. And As I mentioned I never noticed an advantage to hot loading.


not really that big of a difference the 45 is a larger case but mostly empty with new powders 
using my power that I use in both and that does 9,40,45 all reasonably well 

6.6gr would put you at +P starting for 9mm 124gr bullet and 6.7gr is the starting load for a standard pressure 45acp 7.2gr would put you in +p territory that is a 0.6gr difference with a 106gr heavier bullet and nearly twice the case volume 

if you run factory loads 
a speer gold dot 124gr +P 9mm you get 410fpe on the box values 
a 230gr speer gold dot +P 45acp you get 423fpe

because the 45acp is limited in how much pressure the cartridge can take approximately 20Kpsi the 9mm is a higher pressure cartridge at 35Kpsi


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

Powder? If available?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

JRHill02 said:


> So you are saying its the total of the available ammo that is significant. Not the well placed shot, regardless of the caliber, which is of course theoretical cause everything is moving.... I sure get that.
> 
> Anything I shoot has to be absolutely still. hah! Jokes aside, this is a major thought.
> 
> This is why I like the 45-70. If I miss, it falls into the hole and I can club it with the stock


am saying since they are really so close if we use the 124gr +p gold dot 9mm and the 230gr +p gold dot 45acp they are 13fpe different that is hardly the difference between one shot and the next from the same load

if you send a 230gr slug at 900fps you get 410fpe if you send it at 910fps you get 423fpe

it would be an extremely consistent load in a match rifle to have 10fps in deviation. 30 fps or more would be a lot more common in a pistol load.

so your talking the difference between one shot and the next from the same gun and same box of ammo.

so yes with a tiny difference in energy more rounds = more hit potential without the ever so slow reload
if you have a 1 second reload you and you shoot a 0.20 split you could have put 5 more round on target in the time you took to reload so more in the mag does make for more fire power

*well placed shots are very important , but if you don't get the first well placed shot , it sure is nice to have the next one sooner and your sights have to get back on the target to get one.*


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

JRHill02 said:


> Powder? If available?


Alliant power pistol it may not be the best powder , actually it is sort of sooty but it meters well and does well for me I don't run my loads that hot to be in +p territory 
haven't see much of it lately


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

JRHill02 said:


> TY, appreciate your explanation. But a 9m at x amount of powder and a .45 at the same? Of course not equivalent. The .45 has a bunch more propellant and it needs it. So why are the ft-lbs similar? Is this about force wasted to recoil? Mass vs velocity is proportional, disregarding the diameter. I've always kicked that one around. With projectiles its interesting.
> 
> Be patient with me, I only have books and a Chrony. And As I mentioned I never noticed an advantage to hot loading.





GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> any energy that leaves the target is basically wasted energy so if a bullet has enough power to go through the target and keep going , while 2 holes can be better than one in things shooting deer that you want dead and want to track and recover.
> 
> you don't want a man dead you want him stopped from continuing in his violent behavior that might cause you death or great bodily harm, you also don't probably want a bullet that keeps going and going
> 
> ...


Not disagreeing with your point about shot placement, Pete, because shot-placement is king and always will be, but am addressing the question of why a 45ACP isn’t loaded to the velocity of a 9mm.

It’s not because a .45 ACP is loaded “light” to optimize for penetration mitigation, it’s because there are limitations in what can be achieved with a given barrel length, and given weapon design.

In order to get a heavier 45 projectile to the same velocity as a lighter 9mm, out of a similar length barrel (ie, in the same amount of time), it would not only have to have a lot more powder, but a considerably faster burning one than would generally be appropriate. The seat of the pants math says that’s a lot more pressure, but the pressure “number” isn’t the only issue.

The pressure threshold to get the bigger projectile moving is higher, and the barrel length is the same, so the the amount of time to build peak pressure is a lot shorter, meaning that it has to burn a lot faster, and hit a peak much higher than the bullet weight and velocity would suggest.

So, to deal with the higher than already-high peak pressure, you make a thicker, heavier barrel. Except, this is a place where the bigger caliber becomes a significant physical downside. Pressure is measured in area-squared, so, even when the pressure is equal, a .45 case head imparts significantly higher force on the breech face.

Going back to your example of one only being 0.1” larger (0.05” per side), the surface area of a 9mm case head is roughly 0.10 square inch, while the surface area of a .45ACP case head is roughly 0.16 square inch. That means that, if you loaded them to the same pressure, the .45 would be exerting 60% more rearward thrust on the breech face. Get it loaded to the pressure necessary to make 9mm velocities, and you’re talking about 4 or 5x as much thrust against the breech face.

You could make a .45 ACP that gets 9mm velocity out of the same barrel length, but the pistol would weigh 10 or 12 pounds by the time you made the barrel thick enough and strengthened the slide enough to do it.

Fortunately for us, we don’t have to carry 10 or 12# pistols. We get the choice of whether we want to punch like Mike Tyson or Bruce Lee… and can even choose to punch like either the next day. Variety is the spice of boom.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

9" Ruger Super Black Hawk in .454. Is that the kind of hog leg you're speaking of? I did carry one for a while when I was new here, Heck there aren't any bear or kitties out when I am. They are long gone.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

you can get more FPE out of a 45acp if you drop weight and find that sweet spot for velocity vs weight that is about 185gr in 45acp you can get right close to 500fpe

this is basically what the 124gr 9mm is doing 

of course barrel length changes velocity quite a bit

that said I am not sure it is that big of a concern in a self defense round 350fpe or 450fpe your talking 0.30 more not the almost 7-8 times more FPE and FPS like a 308 hunting round.

this is why you will hear a pistol is a pistol and that is mostly true , some of the big magnums are game changers but they are still not rifles


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

we are also learning that bear are stopped quite often with 9, 40 , 45 and that 454 isn't so much needed . not every bear is shot in the head and many of them don't die on location but do leave after contact and rounds in them.

with more LEO having bear encounters in western states when home owners call in they have problem bear in the burbs they have to use what they have that tends to be 9, 40, 45 

it gets us greater data

there is a guy in AK that tests bear defense loads he had an eye opening video with a 10mm semi auto and a 44mag revolver 
with a charging bear target he was able to get 4 rounds on target with the 10mm vs 44mag 1-2 and not as well placed on the target 
his first video he shot on a timer with a stationary target then he had the moving target it really did show nearly the same thing , more rounds and better on target is better than fewer rounds not as well on target.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

My conceal carry gun is a 9mm Rugers ec9s.
It carries 8 rounds. It is pretty accurate for a pocket gun.
My .45 is a S&W mp2.0 that carries 10 rounds. 11 with a full magazine and one in the chamber, however that is illegal in NY.
The full size .45 fits my hand better, holds more rounds, is a bigger hammer, and most important of all, is very, very accurate.
I love accuracy, my rifle of choice is a .243.
Not the biggest rifle out there but it's a laser beam for accuracy.
Now that the cooler weather is on us with heavier clothes I can start carrying the .45 which I think is a goid choice​


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

There should be a law about guys like you. Like, about, more like you.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> My conceal carry gun is a 9mm Rugers ec9s.
> It carries 8 rounds. It is pretty accurate for a pocket gun.
> My .45 is a S&W mp2.0 that carries 10 rounds. 11 with a full magazine and one in the chamber, however that is illegal in NY.
> The full size .45 fits my hand better, holds more rounds, is a bigger hammer, and most important of all, is very, very accurate.
> ...


you also fall into a special category "stupid Laws" you are rounds limited by idiots in the state house , thus for you a 9mm with 17+1 is use-less your stuck with 10 no matter what size your gun is 

crap law does change a situation some


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Like I said, the gun is accurate. Average defensive shooting is between one and five yards.
If I can't solve a problem with ten rounds of 230gr hollow points at 15 feet I guess my time has come.
As I have never had to shoot in self defense I will take the advice of those who have.
So, who here has had to empty a magazine in a self defense situation?
I'd love to hear the details.
Was it the 16th or the 17th round that solved the problem?
Where did the others go?
How many magazines do you carry?
How long was this firefight?


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## LostPotter (3 mo ago)

My thought is you want something that is capable of chest shot without having to much power that it could hurt someone to much on the other side, but be capable of puncturing the skull with kick left to make scrambled eggs.


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## JRHill02 (Jun 20, 2020)

It is frustrating to have these conversations.

If the time came....


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## LostPotter (3 mo ago)

JRHill02 said:


> If the time came....


I have been there and that is why I think about this question in a different way.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

The only people I have shot have been in my "all too real feeling" nightmares. I've shot a bunch of raccoon but that doesn't count.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

That's the point.
Personally, I pray I never have been put in that situation and if it does happen it would cause lifelong nightmares. You would have gone pretty screwed up if for some reason you hope to shoot someone.
By the same token, we live in a broken world, so my 9mm or preferably my .45 is readily available.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I know there are some posters here who have had to use their firearms in self defense.

I knew people IRL that served during the war and used their firearms in defense of our country. None of the people I knew (they have all passed on, WWII vets mostly) liked to talk about it. It was something they tried very hard to forget.


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## LostPotter (3 mo ago)

I have been in the situation twice. The first time was to save an offices life and I made my decision that I needed to step in when the officer still had a chance to have a meaningful recovery. I still do not talk about the second time I had to make that decision.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I'm glad you survived but sorry about the mental scars.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

And then I decided to frost that turd.
My other conceal gun is a Taurus Spectrum .380
When I consider the power and accuracy it is slightly better than a pointy stick.
Unless of course the stick is more than 4 feet long.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> And then I decided to frost that turd.
> My other conceal gun is a Taurus Spectrum .380
> When I consider the power and accuracy it is slightly better than a pointy stick.
> Unless of course the stick is more than 4 feet long.


380 can work , it is definitely a little on the light side and with short barrels some 380 never gets to expansion threshold 
some people stop just because they don't like being shot and decided they were making bad decisions 

some people need to be stopped and it takes them running out of the Hydraulic fluid of life or scrambling the CNS.

the 380 is a little easier to carry than your big stick.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Posted 10/30/22 6:41 AM CDST

While caliber and powder load are important factors , the most important factor in my opinion is accuracy. Whatever caliber carry weapon a person chooses practice for fatal shots other than center mass is important as many criminals are now buying Kevlar also.

A couple years ago a deputy a few counties over was killed in a shootout at a drug house by a druggie with a ,22lr pocket semi-auto who fired one hollow point round from across the room and hit the deputy in the throat just above the Kevlar vest.

I am sure the druggie's placement was only luck , but if he was aiming at the goozle spot , he was on target and fatally took out the deputy's brain stem from about 20 feet away.

Although I was initially taught to practice center mass placement and still do, I practice head shot placement drills just as much.


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