# WTSHTF your survival livestock choices and why



## salmonslayer91 (Oct 10, 2010)

i was watching a survival program the other day and it has got me wondering if you had land, either pasture or heavily wooded, and you planned to "survive" until things straightened out what would you raise and why?

included but not limited to 

Cattle
Sheep
Swine 
Goat
Rabbit
Goose
Turkey
Chicken
Duck
Quail
Guinea's

*ETA (as some have suggested)

Horse
Bee's
Fish
Dogs
Cats
Guinea Pigs
Rats*

lets think about how are we going to feed this animal?
will it readily reproduce for you?
is it dual purpose?
Tri purpose? (Meat eggs fur/down) etc

would it be best to have "quiet" animals?
what will you be doing or what have you thought about?


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## centralNC (Nov 22, 2010)

Right off of the top of my head:

Rabbits for meat and pelts & fertilizer
Chickens for meat and eggs & fertilizer
Goats for milk, soap, meat, fertilizer
Ducks for eggs, meat, fertilizer

The top 2 would be the easiest for me on the homestead. The ducks and goats would be if I could manage it.


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## luv2farm (Feb 15, 2008)

definatly the following:

rabbits--they are quick to produce and grow off, usable fur, fertilizer
goats-- they will milk for 9-10 months, good meat, easy fertilizer
chicken- meat, eggs, fethers
hogs-- they are edible at about any size, will eat anything, easy to house
and maybe wooled sheep....for meat, fleece, they are easy to house


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

My bare bones list

rabbits for meat since they reproduce quickly - plus good fertilizer that can be applied directly 
chickens for eggs and meat - also good fertilizer but needs to be composted
pigs - you can eat pretty much everything on a pig
geese - meat and fat plus down
duck - meat and fat and down
goats - milk and meat


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

I have ducks, geese, guineas, turkeys, chickens, goats and LGDs. I tried rabbits, but they do not do well in this climate and were more work than I wanted. Pigs are good except you need a good bit of feed if you are breeding them and unless you butcher very young, you have too much meat to handle without refrigeration here. We get some cold days, but not real cold and not very many. You have to deal with that meat pretty fast. Cattle do well here, but again, one family would have a hard time dealing with that much meat before it spoiled. Much better to do small stock. Even a turkey can be too much if you don't can it immediately.


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## muzzelloader (Feb 20, 2006)

I would have chickens, rabbits, turkeys, ducks & geese. Those would be first choice then depending on amount of land available would have goats cattle and hogs in that order. Oh yes forgot to have the guineas in there with chickens. Of course the number and choice of live stock would depend on the amount of land and feed items at your disposal.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

chickens, because they can scrounge for themselves. I think realistically unless you have large animal breeds that were able to make do with available forage, and you had enough range for them to use/rotate, that it would be difficult to feed them and moreso protect them in a difficult time.

lots of wild turkeys, elk, wild rabbits, crawdads, turtles, dove, fish and deer etc around(though I wouldn't count on those). I realize people will hunt the dickens out of the land, but at least I'm on the edge of some rugged territory, so the hardy go further in.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

oh yeah raccoons and squirrels, possums

ps, a hundred years ago people here used to tag their pigs and let them run loose in the forest, then round them up in the fall


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## longshot38 (Dec 19, 2006)

chickens, meat, eggs, feathers

Ducks, meat, eggs, feathers, grease/fat

Sheep, meat, wool, hides, grease/fat

goats, meat, milk, soap, hides, labour


just off the top of my head

dean


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

I'm in a northern climate so I'm going to have to feed the beasts for a good portion of the year. Goats and rabbits will be easy because their food supply is abundant and easily harvested and preserved. I would defiantly have a horse, even though it will be a large commitment to keep it fed. I feel that the horse will more than repay me in work delivered. I would like a very few hens, as feeding them through the winter would take a fair amount of food with little return. A cow would also require a lot of hay be put up, but maybe a smaller breed like a Jersey or a Dexter could be practical, and would help feed the others. I don't think pigs would be practical here due to the feed issues, unless maybe a breeding pair of Mini pigs. The young could be slaughtered by fall so just a pair to get through the winter.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Probably chickens and goats first.
Guineas make great alarm animals, so do geese... but it's a double edge sword in that they make so much noise they might attract two legged predators.

Rabbits are a wash. We experimented trying to raise them with only hay and whatever greens were available. Found out quick, you only raise tiny scrawny rabbits that way... without some high energy food, they don't grow or reproduce.

Had everything on the list but turkey and sheep. There are wild turkeys... but not worth fooling with.


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

In a "i don't want anyone to know I'm here" scenario...rabbits. period. no sound. easy to keep and breed. No fencing problems.

If it's just a matter of keeping animals and i don't have to worry about outsiders trying to take what I've got...then I'd add sheep for the wool and meat, dairy goat or 2, and chickens.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

We'd have what we have now
chickens
cows
sheep


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

If I had to hide out? Just rabbits. Easy to keep hidden and move if need be, easy to feed with local forage too. 

If I was in a more secure location with others, rabbits, quineas and some hardy breed of goat. I'd want to keep it pretty simple in a survivle situation...less callories spent trying to keep track and care of the animals the better.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

I bought my animals with this scenario in mind. I have chickens and goats. Chickens are good foragers, produce eggs and meat. Goats are also good foragers and give milk and meat. I have 2 acres of land, but if I needed to take the goats for more forage, there's a place not far that I could stake them out at.


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## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

Well,I know goats...so it'd be goats- the poor man's cow. They don't need an expensive or complicated shed to live in...No barn needed...simple three sided lean to will work. They eat like deer- so underbrush/scrub is their favorite food, hay/grass is their least favorite food= fairly easy to feed. 

In a SHTF scenario and you have to bug out...goats easily go feral, second only to cats. So, as much as I'd hate it, I could turn them loose and they'd survive- they are smart. *(That's why Jesus said: "Feed my sheep" LOL) Truth is they are a herd animal so they would follow me if I lit out to the woods.

You'd have meat, milk, cheese, kefir, yogurt, milk for soap, hides, and... a working animal( very easy to train, and small enough to handle by women and children. Make good companion animals FWIW....but who wants to eat their companion? 

Did you know that the Peruvian's raise Guinea pigs for meat? (Pocket meat) I think that's an option no one's really looked into on here//okay I've not seen it discussed. Not sure they grow as fast as broiler chickens or rabbits though...probably not. 

-scrt crk


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

I would continue to have chickens for eggs and meat. They are good at feeding themselves it they had to.
I just started raising rabbits for this exact scenario. They are food food, manure (fertilizing the garden) and fur, if needed.
I raise goats for milk, but could eat the males if needed.
We raised a pig and would do it again.
I have also had ducks and would raise them and geese for meat and eggs.


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## lonelytree (Feb 28, 2008)

Rabbits, lynx, porcupine, squirrel, caribou, moose, black and brown bear.

Lake trout, burbot, whitefish, grayling, rainbow trout, salmon (Copper River Reds).

Ptarmigan, grouse, ducks, geese and anything else that flies over or nests nearby.


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## salmonslayer91 (Oct 10, 2010)

lonelytree said:


> Rabbits, lynx, porcupine, squirrel, caribou, moose, black and brown bear.
> 
> Lake trout, burbot, whitefish, grayling, rainbow trout, salmon (Copper River Reds).
> 
> Ptarmigan, grouse, ducks, geese and anything else that flies over or nests nearby.


unlike you we here in the lower 48 would find that many animals would become scarce and isolated i couldn't "count" on large game as they would be the first to disappear then the rest of the food chain i love it up there in the land of the midnight sun spent many a summer on the kenai peninsula ....... i need a plane ticket....  lots of family from anchorage, sterling, soldotna, kenai, king salmon, hope .... <><,,,<><,,,<><


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

I have goats, chickens, ducks, and chickens now. I used to have rabbits and plan to get another start of them. The rabbits will be the emergency meat if things get so bad that I can't keep animals outside. The rabbits and a few chickens would be moved to the basement. Possibly a milk goat too.

ETA: Forgot about the guineas. They are excellent "watch dogs", and taste good too.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

small stock most definitely, ducks chickens rabbits goats and sheep head of the list.
think a aqua culture (aquaponics) endeavor would be in order also. 

pigs would be good,but I would not want the giants raised now. in a shtf scenario think I would cut a few loose here and there to feed themselves and potentially give me a feed stock.

wild game is always on the menu! beast fish and fowl.

if I had access to the small breeds of bovine, maybe.

geese not so sure on as the wild ones are at the moment very numerous and easy to acquire.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

lonelytree said:


> Rabbits, lynx, porcupine, squirrel, caribou, moose, black and brown bear.
> 
> Lake trout, burbot, whitefish, grayling, rainbow trout, salmon (Copper River Reds).
> 
> Ptarmigan, grouse, ducks, geese and anything else that flies over or nests nearby.


You beat me, but my species are a bit different. 

Porky, squirrel, jack rabbit, snowshoe hare, elk, moose, white-tailed and mule deer, black bear, beaver

Pike, walleye, perch, burbot, whitefish, rainbow trout, brook trout, browntrout, splake, lake trout, sucker, sturgeon, cutthroats, carp.

Ruffed grouse, spruce grouse, hungarian partridge, sharptailed grouse, woodpecker, ducks, geese, swans, cranes.

If I needed to raise something, Goats/sheep, chickens, pigs. Have enough grains stockpiled around here to feed them for years...

Being at the edge of uncounted millions of acres of wild lands has some perks. I feel for the people in more settled settings. But I will be too dang cold...:yuck:


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## Pelenaka (Jul 27, 2007)

_WTSHTF your survival livestock choices and why _

My urban livestock are rabbits. If it wasn't for the fact that I put their cages on my raised garden beds during good weather neighbors would never know.
If needed my meat trio could be moved indoors to the cellar. 
Utilizing a well hidden rabbit tractor would help with feed issues. 


~~ pelenaka ~~
http://thirtyfivebyninety.blogspot.com/2009/02/attack-rabbit.html


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

Here in the Ozarks you almost have to have some birds if you want to grow plants. My first year here I planted some fruit trees and the grasshoppers came, ate all the leaves on them, then started eating the bark. They killed all my trees. Since then, I keep guineas, chickens and ducks and between the 3 of them they keep the bugs under control. They also provide eggs, meat, and plenty of entertainment.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

goats, bantam chickens, rabbits and veal/beef from dairy bull calves(raised on goat milk)...love pigs but calves are practically free where a piglet will cost$$

wild game/fish---moose and deer regularly for us.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Pigeons are cheap and easy to raise in a small area too


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Same things we have now - chickens and Nigerian Dwarf dairy goats

Nice thing about the Nigerians - they are easy to handle and since they come into heat year round you can stagger the breedings so you have milk year round. They have the highest butterfat of any breed (6-10%) so you get more cheese per gallon of milk and making butter does not require separating the cream.


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## stickinthemud (Sep 10, 2003)

"Did you know that the Peruvian's raise Guinea pigs for meat? (Pocket meat) I think that's an option no one's really looked into on here//okay I've not seen it discussed. Not sure they grow as fast as broiler chickens or rabbits though...probably not."

Guinea pig (also known as Cavy) would not be on my list of survival livestock. Even though they may be able to breed at four weeks, they won't reach full size for several months. Their reputation of reproducing rapidly is not deserved. Guinea pig gestation is about twice that of rabbits (68 days) and litters are usually no larger than 6. Baby guinea pigs are born fully furred & with eyes open. Like calves and lambs they will be running around within minutes. DD calls them "eggs with legs" because they are cartoonish round fur-balls with big eyes and mickey mouse ears. Too cute to eat. 
For those of you without the "cute" hang-up, the animal and the meat are known in Peru as "cuy" & a Google search will turn up more information, including recipes.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Muscovies, geese and turkeys, and guard dogs. That's it. Nothing else because in a SHTF situation anything else would be too much of a hassle to feed and look after - and what the hey, I live in BC so I can get all the red meat and fish and seafoods and their by-products I want out of the bush, lakes, rivers and ocean.

.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

naturelover said:


> Muscovies, geese and turkeys, and guard dogs. That's it. Nothing else because in a SHTF situation anything else would be too much of a hassle to feed and look after - and what the hey, I live in BC so I can get all the red meat and fish and seafoods and their by-products I want out of the bush, lakes, rivers and ocean.
> 
> .


I'm wondering how you will feed them birds when grain is no longer available?


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

tinknal said:


> I'm wondering how you will feed them birds when grain is no longer available?


They are omnivores like pigs, not herbivores, they can and will eat the same things that the wild ducks, geese and turkeys already eat here supplemented by what I grow. It stays green here in the winters and is easy to grow winter stuff in greenhouses too. There is plenty for birds like that to free range on. 

That is what I have already done when I had them before anyway, I free ranged them and in the winter supplemented their winter grazing with what I grew. They got wild grains, grass seeds and rice, all manner of wild edible vegetations, alfalfa, swamp and lake vegetation, berries, fruits, silage, mushrooms, lichens, plus the vegetables, greens and herbs that I grew, cooked root vegetables, boiled eggs, fresh water fish and seafoods, seaweeds, worms, slugs, insects, small rodents, snakes, amphibians, etc. plus lots of minerals and nutrients in the soil.

That would be a good question though for people planning on keeping 4 legged critters that are strictly herbivores.

.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

naturelover said:


> They are omnivores like pigs, not herbivores, they can and will eat the same things that the wild ducks, geese and turkeys already eat here supplemented by what I grow. It stays green here in the winters and is easy to grow winter stuff in greenhouses too. There is plenty for birds like that to free range on.
> 
> That is what I have already done when I had them before anyway, I free ranged them and in the winter supplemented their winter grazing with what I grew. They got wild grains, grass seeds and rice, all manner of wild edible vegetations, alfalfa, swamp and lake vegetation, berries, fruits, silage, mushrooms, lichens, plus the vegetables, greens and herbs that I grew, cooked root vegetables, boiled eggs, fresh water fish and seafoods, seaweeds, worms, slugs, insects, small rodents, snakes, amphibians, etc. plus lots of minerals and nutrients in the soil.
> 
> ...


Ah, you must be coastal.....

When I think BC I think "the Great White North" LOL


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

For me it would be much easier to keep hay eaters alive over the winter. Grain would be easy enough the first year since it is produced locally in abundance, but during an extended SHTF I believe it would become scarce after the first year.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

root crops (mangels, turnips, carrots) as well as pumpkins are a decent supplement for winter feeding....pumpkin seeds are protein and trace minerals like selenium.

comfrey is high protein and calcium
acorns are good protein (I collect and feed to goats, calf, and chickens will eat too) pigs will finish on acorns.

I've also fed potatoes....I got a ton (literally) free as they had sprouted....remove sprouts and cut up....I served the potatoes with outdated (free) yogurt (half a pallet) to my bull this past summer and he grew like crazy.


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## NickieL (Jun 15, 2007)

I was actually thinking dog could be a good source of food....first you hunt the ferel dangerous ones, and I'm sure there will be plenty of those. Plenty of cultures have eatten dog, even the native americans ate dogs. A duel purpose critter, they can be used to help hunt and guard in the good times. In the lean times, they could feed the survivors. They breed pretty easy.


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## bee (May 12, 2002)

Breeds fast, quiet, omnivores, cage raisable and a food source in undeveloped areas...rats. They can eat anything we can and a lot we won't. They only carry disease if living in filth or exposed to disease..same as any livestock.

If the SHTF before a person/group can get more conventional livestock in place; the first live trapped rats could become "stock".

I already have chickens,turkeys and ducks plus plans for the nigerian dwarf dairy goats and potbellied pigs...provided I get a couple more years before need.

Consider also that directly after TSHTF, that not only feral cats and dogs will be moving but newly released domestic livestock will be out there too. The ones used to equating people to food will be fairly easy to capture; then harvest or include as breeding stock. With each generation post event mature stock for hunting and young to be re-tamed is a possibility. Goats go feral in a heartbeat. Horses,cattle and hogs. Banties might make it. We've messed with regular chickens and domestic turkeys and ducks too much, unlikely to get a wild breeding population of them post SHTF. Muscovies are hard to STOP forming wild colonies.

Sorry,, thinking in print....


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

> I was actually thinking dog could be a good source of food....first you hunt the ferel dangerous ones, and I'm sure there will be plenty of those. Plenty of cultures have eatten dog, even the native americans ate dogs. A duel purpose critter, they can be used to help hunt and guard in the good times. In the lean times, they could feed the survivors. They breed pretty easy.





> Breeds fast, quiet, omnivores, cage raisable and a food source in undeveloped areas...rats. They can eat anything we can and a lot we won't. They only carry disease if living in filth or exposed to disease..same as any livestock.


Yup, might have to think outside the box. Think around the world where living conditions are poor or there are just cultural differences. Every animal you can think of is eaten somewhere. It might be worth it to have a few bins growing earthworms, they are high in protein. Other bugs are edible and can be very nutritious although the idea of eating bugs is GROSS to me! However, if it came to that, they would have to be considered an option. As a matter of fact, you might not even have to raise them except through the winter. They are so prolific in nature they could probably be gathered every day without running out.


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

All three of her breeds can forage really well. they don't really need grains from humans. Same with rabbits around our area. 

I know Texican said "no" to rabbits because they don't grow well without the higher protein, but I can walk out my back door and harvest alfalfa with a scythe. Easy to grow soybeans, too. and sunflowers. So there's the protein for the winter. 

So much of this kind of question depends on the TYPE of scenario. Mad Max type of situation, where you band together with neighbors...we'd have no problems. Farmer next door would provide the feedstuffs, we'd supply labor and animals as well as engineering/problem solving. (and an oil press for fuel).

In a situation where it's every man for himself for some reason...might have to cut back on critters and do the hunting thing.

In a simple "economy collapsed, there's super inflation, use $500 for a loaf of bread", then it's better to be diversified with your crops/animals so you can barter. "hi! I have EXACTLY what you need!! " sort of thing.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Rabbits and Chickens. They can live indoors where one can protect them. They can be fed from oustide sourses and scraps.


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## tyusclan (Jan 1, 2005)

Chickens for eggs and meat.

Rabbits for meat.

Possibly goats and hogs, depending on what acreage was available.

A good dog that can help guard the place and hunt would be helpful.


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## stickinthemud (Sep 10, 2003)

earthworms (waste disposal, protein, chicken feed, bait) 
guinea pigs (manure, meat)
rabbits (manure, meat, wool, fur)
fish (food/meat, liquid fertilizer; tank as water storage & solar mass)
pigeons (meat, manure, messengers)
chickens (eggs, meat, manure, feathers, waste disposal, pest control)
bees (pollination, honey, wax, pollen, fish food)
dog (alarm, pest control, draft/pack animal)
cat (pest control)
With more land, add:
goats (milk, manure, meat, wool, leather, draft/pack animal)
With more land and better security, add:
sheep (wool, manure, meat, sheepskin)
cattle (milk, manure, meat, leather, draft animal)
horse (transportation, draft/pack animal, milk, manure, leather, meat)


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

tinknal said:


> I'm wondering how you will feed them birds when grain is no longer available?


Birds will forage for a lot of their food. I've seen chickens eating just about anything they can catch, including lizards, mice, bugs, seeds, fresh green leaves, and even small snakes. The guineas and ducks are a bit more selective, but they eat a lot of things other than just grain if they have the opportunity.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

I wonder how long it takes a baby garter snake to die in a chicken tummy? writhing around...does it make the chicken queasy?


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## cnichols (Jan 5, 2010)

Given the resources and the time (in no particular order) ...


Fish - Think Aquaponics - Meat & Liquid Fertilizer. This would be set up in a greenhouse type setting and would be especially useful during the winter for growing fresh greens, etc.
Chickens - Eggs, Meat & Manure (and possibly feathers for various uses)
Rabbits - Meat, Pelts & Manure
Bees - Honey & Wax (this is really iffy because we have alot of wasps in our area and I'm afraid it might become an issue having the wasps invade the hives.
Goats - Meat, Milk, Pelts & Manure
Pot Belly Pigs - Garden Tillage, Meat & Manure

I am fairly certain we have enough land to sustain small populations of the last two (i.e. 2-3 of each) but that's it. There would have to be serious culling done prior to or during the winter in order to reduce the need to overwinter too many animals, but we'd keep the best breeding stock for the following year.

And I think stickinthemud also posted another great thing to grow. Earthworms. Barring the ability to grow those, I did read up a little on growing "soldier fly larve" and that might work as well.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

FourDeuce said:


> Birds will forage for a lot of their food. I've seen chickens eating just about anything they can catch, including lizards, mice, bugs, seeds, fresh green leaves, and even small snakes. The guineas and ducks are a bit more selective, but they eat a lot of things other than just grain if they have the opportunity.


Maybe in Arkansas.

I was speaking specific to northern climates. From sometime in October til sometime in April I would have to provide every calorie those birds consume, and without artificial light they won't produce much in those months.


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## AmberLBowers (Nov 28, 2008)

chickens (great foragers, waste disposal, fertilizer, meat, eggs, feathers)

fish (plan on putting in a pond on the new place when we move in a few weeks, plus my grandfather has a very large fully st0cked pond on his 80 acres about a couple hours walk from here)

pygmy goats or nigerian dwarfs (before I get ripped by the expereinced goat people, I know that pygmys are not actually true dairy animals but we are talking a true SHTF situation, they are small, year round breeding so I could stagger 2 in order to have at least a small amount of dairy year round, meaty kids, we would have 2 adjust the amount of dairy we eat of course)

maybe potbellied pigs (like some other posters, storing the meat of a larger swine presents a problem without refridgeration)

a good gaurd dog (our current sweet mama/but will rip your throat out if you threaten my children or chickens dog is getting old and I'm wracking my brains about finding one as good as her)


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

tinknal said:


> Maybe in Arkansas.
> 
> I was speaking specific to northern climates. From sometime in October til sometime in April I would have to provide every calorie those birds consume, and without artificial light they won't produce much in those months.


What I do right now is save everything from the garden. Rabbits will eat the leaves from broccoli, cauliflower and cabbage - anything really, and I usually just pile up all the greens and cover with a tarp. For my chickens I save any tomatos that start to rot, swiss chard, beet greens etc and thaw them out before I give it to them. I live in Alberta and have temps like yours but probably less snow because of the rockies. (The systems hit the mountains and kind of skips over the east slope for a few hundred miles and then lands somewhere mid continent) I scatter hay or straw or even my cut grass over their yard so the chickens go outside even when it's -20 - as long as it isn't storming they're outside.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

For me an animal would have to fend for its self at least half the time.
For chickens armiecauna and astralorps ours only get feed in the winter , they Free range and get scraps the rest of the year and keep us in eggs , they are also great at avoiding hawks and other critters.
For cattle buffalo would be my first choice but I doubt they would stand for milking , so a highland or brahma cross something tough as nails and able to forage well for its self .
Id rather have mutt goats than specialized , dont want anything that requires a lot of attention or is prone to problems Mutts tend to be tougher .
Hogs can and do manage well on their own .
Id be more likely to cultivate wild rabbits with breeding areas to keep predators at bay than deal with trying to keep tame rabbits . Mother nature already made them to surive and be food for others its why they reproduce so fast . 
to supplament feed in winter Id grow beets ,pumpkin and squashes that keep well which is what we do now .
fish , well around here if a puddle keeps water for a year it will have blue gill and bullheads in it . Ive seen bluegill in stocktanks . if I have a pond Id have catfish bluegill,crappy,and bass let nature take care of them and harvest when needed.
Dogs too need to be assets not simply eaters . they need to preform multiple jobs.
protecting the live stock , defending the property and family, and able to hunt well.
theres no point in having stock that you have to coddle


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

rabbits- meat, fur, fertilizer
chickens- eggs, meat
fish- food

The reason for only these three is simply because they can be raised inside in your basement. If there were a terrible societal breakdown, stealing would be a major issue. These could be kept inside, almost hidden from prying eyes.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

AmberLBowers said:


> pygmy goats or nigerian dwarfs (before I get ripped by the expereinced goat people, I know that pygmys are not actually true dairy animals but we are talking a true SHTF situation, they are small, year round breeding so I could stagger 2 in order to have at least a small amount of dairy year round, meaty kids, we would have 2 adjust the amount of dairy we eat of course)



Pygmy's are meat goats, Nigerians are dairy goats. Size wise they are about the same, and could be brought indoors if needed for protection. It is almost impossible to switch an adult goat or cow that is used to having their production pushed with grain to grass (forage) based dairying. However, with careful management from the time they are weaned you can get decent production with grass based dairying. My Nigerian does give about a 1/2 gallon a day and the only feed they get beside what is in their pasture is alfalfa pellets.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Sanza said:


> What I do right now is save everything from the garden. Rabbits will eat the leaves from broccoli, cauliflower and cabbage - anything really, and I usually just pile up all the greens and cover with a tarp. For my chickens I save any tomatos that start to rot, swiss chard, beet greens etc and thaw them out before I give it to them. I live in Alberta and have temps like yours but probably less snow because of the rockies. (The systems hit the mountains and kind of skips over the east slope for a few hundred miles and then lands somewhere mid continent) I scatter hay or straw or even my cut grass over their yard so the chickens go outside even when it's -20 - as long as it isn't storming they're outside.


Don't get me wrong, I'm all for chickens, but in a true (long term) SHTF, I wouldn't want that many difficult mouths to feed in the winter. As I said, I might keep a few, but my feed collection efforts would be more efficiently directed towards herbivores.


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## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

I agree with the idea of muscovies naturelover. I had to give up my scovies last year when I couldn't protect them. Tinknal, I plan on growing my own grain. Your stores of wheat will only last so long, you're gonna have to replace it somehow. 
Our livestock would include chickens, scovies, turkeys, and beef cattle because that's what we have now. In addition, add great pyr's because otherwise the poultry would have to become indoor cage birds (which might not be a bad idea in a changed world situation.)
One other thing to consider...if the shtf where do you think you are gonna purchase the animals you don't have already? Who in their right mind would part with livestock willingly? I've got all my animals already except, a 2nd pyr, and the scovies.


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## CocalicoSprings (Mar 12, 2008)

I am thinking that grubs, meal worms, and maggots would be an excellent source of protein that nobody else would want to steal. They'll keep you alive.


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## poorboy (Apr 15, 2006)

wyld thang said:


> I wonder how long it takes a baby garter snake to die in a chicken tummy? writhing around...does it make the chicken queasy?


Didn't you ever notice how the raw egg slithers right out of the shell when you break it!:smiley-laughing013:


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

bourbonred said:


> Who in their right mind would part with livestock willingly? I've got all my animals already except, a 2nd pyr, and the scovies.


Some will be easier to obtain than others. I'm in dairy country. When SHTF I don't think the dairies are going to be able to sustain the herd sizes given that gasoline and electricity will be in short supply. There should be plenty of dairy cows around. One thing about chickens, their reproduction rate is incredible if one can incubate. Goats and sheep would be scarce. I would imagine that a brisk trade in live rabbits would arise.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

poorboy said:


> Didn't you ever notice how the raw egg slithers right out of the shell when you break it!:smiley-laughing013:


slickerer than snot!


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## Illini (Apr 13, 2009)

texican said:


> Rabbits are a wash. We experimented trying to raise them with only hay and whatever greens were available. Found out quick, you only raise tiny scrawny rabbits that way... without some high energy food, they don't grow or reproduce.


Hi, Texican.

In trying to keep a closed loop cycle at my small place, I've found "Keeping Poultry and Rabbits on Scraps"

http://www.amazon.com/Keeping-Poult...2319/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300673321&sr=8-1

very helpful. It was written in 1941 in Britain for the war effort, and reissued in 1949. The copies available now are facsimiles.

There was a bran ration for poultry and rabbits, but the feeding information has mashes and garden and foraged foods that are not grains ("corn," in British English.) 

The book is a guide for home meat production without purchased inputs. There are also some nice ideas for poultry and rabbit housing from found materials.

Best of luck!

Kathy


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

wyld thang said:


> ...
> ps, a hundred years ago people here used to tag their pigs and let them run loose in the forest, then round them up in the fall


They still do that here. They use ear notches to identify them. One old man owned 100's, he died a couple years ago and people are still finding his ear marked hogs running wild.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

tinknal said:


> Maybe in Arkansas.
> 
> I was speaking specific to northern climates. From sometime in October til sometime in April I would have to provide every calorie those birds consume, and without artificial light they won't produce much in those months.


It's not by accident that I ended up in a "southern" area. I always figured that if I have to provide my own food, then living in a southern area would make that much easier than living further north.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

wyld thang said:


> I wonder how long it takes a baby garter snake to die in a chicken tummy? writhing around...does it make the chicken queasy?


NOTHING seems to bother those chickens once they swallow it. I flipped over a hay bale once and found a nest of baby mice. The chickens came over, started clucking like crazy and pounced on the mice, gobbling them down like popcorn. When they got the bigger mice they sometimes pecked and tore them in half before they swallowed them, but they didn't waste much time doing it.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

FourDeuce said:


> It's not by accident that I ended up in a "southern" area. I always figured that if I have to provide my own food, then living in a southern area would make that much easier than living further north.


exactly longer growing season milder winters . less energy expended to stay warm 
long winters mean putting up a lot of hay and crops ib a very short time.
a big question is how much hay does your stock go through. a draft team will need over 4 tons if your planning to work them . a couple more for a cow or two. . the amount goes down the further south ya go and longer grazing.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Wisconsin Ann said:


> ... but I can walk out my back door and harvest alfalfa with a scythe. Easy to grow soybeans, too. and sunflowers. So there's the protein for the winter.


That would be sweet... have looked into alfalfa here, but the location (heat and humidity) just isn't conducive to growing it....



tinknal said:


> One thing about chickens, their reproduction rate is incredible if one can incubate.


There are plenty of large breed chickens here, but predominately bantams rule the roost... they incubate their own. I keep several flocks of silkies just for their superior broodiness. Some of the old bantam hens here will raise four 'litters' a year. One jumped nest Thursday with 13 chicks. Back in the fall she jumped with 20... I think around 12 have made it so far... they'll be breeding in a month or so (some are already getting their 'crow' on).


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

FourDeuce said:


> It's not by accident that I ended up in a "southern" area. I always figured that if I have to provide my own food, then living in a southern area would make that much easier than living further north.


I'm in a northern area because to survive all I need is ammunition for the wildlife that is abundant in these wild lands. And the space and lack of people to compete with. To each his own. A moose taken with a 20 cent bullet lasts a long time.:cowboy:


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

tinknal said:


> Ah, you must be coastal.....
> 
> When I think BC I think "the Great White North" LOL


Yes. Southern coastal rain forest region and there's lots of lakes and rivers. It's warmer here in the winter than the rest of Canada, also warmer in the winters than Washington and Oregon and doesn't get much snow, maybe 2 or 3 weeks of snow in January at most. We only got one day of snow this winter and none at all last winter. So it's a good place for free ranging birds even in the winter. Migratory birds from the far north and Siberia come here to overwinter.

.


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

(referring to my walking out the back door and harvesting alfalfa)


texican said:


> That would be sweet... have looked into alfalfa here, but the location (heat and humidity) just isn't conducive to growing it....


It's all about knowing your area, isn't it? You guys have a lovely long growing season (most years) and can grow the crops that like hot and dry. Up here, if it needs more than 80days of growing, you NEED a greenhouse of some sort. And then there's wheat. ..sigh. BUT many areas in Texas are water starved in the summer, so you have THAT problem. Warmer weather year round has it's drawbacks. 

Here...it's these nasty long winters. Can be a real problem figuring out how much food you need to feed your critters for 6 or 7 months. But we don't have to worry (often) about water..it's plentiful. 

I tell ya what, tho....my record keeping would get a LOT better in any of these scenarios. I'd need to know who grew at what rate on how much..right down to the last gram.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

texican said:


> That would be sweet... have looked into alfalfa here, but the location (heat and humidity) just isn't conducive to growing it....
> 
> 
> There are plenty of large breed chickens here, but predominately bantams rule the roost... they incubate their own. I keep several flocks of silkies just for their superior broodiness. Some of the old bantam hens here will raise four 'litters' a year. One jumped nest Thursday with 13 chicks. Back in the fall she jumped with 20... I think around 12 have made it so far... they'll be breeding in a month or so (some are already getting their 'crow' on).


Yep, broodies are great. I'm thinking if one could incubate an abundance that they would make excellent trade bait. I read an article about incubating with large bags of heated grain to maintain warmth. They incubated eggs as far back as ancient Egypt. Of course they had slaves to do the work.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

farmerDale said:


> I'm in a northern area because to survive all I need is ammunition for the wildlife that is abundant in these wild lands. And the space and lack of people to compete with. To each his own. A moose taken with a 20 cent bullet lasts a long time.:cowboy:


Abundant game can disappear, but I figure the climate is a bit harder to change.:teehee:


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

When it comes to it, we have to seriously think of reducing our animal population, as all want to eat. Will we be able to buy feed? 
I want to keep as many chickens as the place can support, same with goats and sheep. that is all we can even think of. Winter feed will be a big problem and really limit us. .


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

PyroDon said:


> exactly longer growing season milder winters . less energy expended to stay warm
> long winters mean putting up a lot of hay and crops ib a very short time.
> a big question is how much hay does your stock go through. a draft team will need over 4 tons if your planning to work them . a couple more for a cow or two. . the amount goes down the further south ya go and longer grazing.


There are some advantages in a northern clime. It _forces_ you to prepare. It gives you a season for relaxing, crafting, fixing, learning and so on. Much fewer insect borne diseases, few dangerous creepy crawlies, low rural crime rates, cold temps for preserving perishables, etc. There is a reason that civilization advanced faster in Europe, and I believe that the innovations needed by long winters were an impetus to these advances.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

actually civilization advanced faster in the far east .
the europian advances were a direct result of romans .
cold hampers, if you have to spend all your energy trying to survive you dnot have time to advance . which is why the med. was such a melting pot for advancements in art achitrecture and engineering , where as the norther climes tended to be stuck in the late stone and early bronze ages


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

Chickens for eggsand meat. They can mostly forage for there own food. Winter feed isn't that big a deal. Mangels, potatoes, and scraps will get them through.

Pigs for meat. They eat about anything and given roam to scavenge can take care of themselves mostly. Dessicated pig thyroid was used to treat thyroidism and I'll have at least two people who will need it but it also means I'm going to need lots of pigs.

Cattle for meat, milk, and oxen. Since it will take years to build up a sufficient amount of work animals we probably won't be eating much beef for a long time.

Sheep would work better for the thyroid problem but I just won't have that much pasture.

Will probably have a window of opportunity to trade for horses when people realize they can't feed them but before they can bring themselves to eat them.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

PyroDon said:


> actually civilization advanced faster in the far east .
> the europian advances were a direct result of romans .
> cold hampers, if you have to spend all your energy trying to survive you dnot have time to advance . which is why the med. was such a melting pot for advancements in art achitrecture and engineering , where as the norther climes tended to be stuck in the late stone and early bronze ages


Well, the Northern ones were those who destroyed the Lotus Eaters........... 
Italy stole most of it's wealth from much warmer places.

My guess (at least if it is a TEOTWAWKI event) that the hordes of zombies that will spill out of the cities will not be heading north......


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

tinknal said:


> Well, the Northern ones were those who destroyed the Lotus Eaters...........
> Italy stole most of it's wealth from much warmer places.
> 
> My guess (at least if it is a TEOTWAWKI event) that the hordes of zombies that will spill out of the cities will not be heading north......


the only thing that saved the northern tribes from speaking mongal was that Gangus died .
took them northerns a long time to finally get the lotus eaters , it wasnt until rome was already weakening and suffering from internal stife . how long did hadrians wall stand ?? until the romans pulled out because two brothers were fighting over the thrown .
well some will no doubt head north the nice thing is they wont last long .


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

FourDeuce said:


> Abundant game can disappear, but I figure the climate is a bit harder to change.:teehee:


It could disapear for sure. But when their are few people, and you have a couple dozen moose, a couple hundred deer, thousands of ducks and geese, grouse, rabbits, and 100 elk wandering on your own secluded land, where there are no roads for miles, I feel fairly certain we are meat secure. Our natural six month freezer for the veggies and wild fruit and nuts, will also be a blessing. 500 acres of woodlots will keep us fuel sufficient.

Our climate sucks in some ways, but at the same time has many benefits!!!:nanner:LOL


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

PyroDon said:


> the only thing that saved the northern tribes from speaking mongal was that Gangus died .
> took them northerns a long time to finally get the lotus eaters , it wasnt until rome was already weakening and suffering from internal stife . how long did hadrians wall stand ?? until the romans pulled out because two brothers were fighting over the thrown .
> well some will no doubt head north the nice thing is they wont last long .


Ghengas was a northern feller too..... 

Why did Rome need a wall? What happened when they tried to defeat the northern "Barbarians"?

How did that deal with Atilla work out?

Rome couldn't even defend a horde of unorganized tribes. 

Kinda like Afghanistan. Those old Zealots will still be hunkered down in them caves long after our little adventure ends.


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## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

My list? 

Chickens (daily protien, easy to get, Ican bring them inside if needed, and either keep them in a small pen or put "diapers" on them. Old chickens are dinner, a rooster provides us with chicks for future layers. Feathers from the hens and spare roosters to stuff things with)

Rabbits (super quiet, good producers of meat and I can forage them if I take the time to learn how NOW. I can bring these guys inside, too. A rabbit makes more meat on less feed than a cow in the same time. I can use their fur for baby clothes/anything else) 

Goats (Milk producers, fur bearers, meat during kidding season and beyond, if I get a mini breed I can fdigure out something...maybe donate a room to the goats, and bring forage to them, rather than leaving them out and exposed. Taking them for walks would be simple and they would be guarded)

Pigs (These guys can be turned loose in an EOTW senario...and they are easy to feed. They can forage much of their own feed, provide lard for soap, meat for food, and a million other things...plus they breed hard and fast, so you end up with plenty of piglets)

Dogs (hopefully I will just HAVE some that I can breed if needed, but dogs are great alarm systems, if nothing else. Plus they can be eaten if it gets really grim, and they can protect you from roving animals.) 

Bees (sugar is awesome, and I would like them for pollination)

Cats (but only stray cats, so I wouldn't really list this...you could catch them to eat, but they will be eating the mice and other rodents, so will be providing a valuable service) 

As to the things I wouldn't even bother with....

Gueanie Pigs. Now, this COULD change, but they need Vit C in their diets somehow, their pregnancies last tweo months, and you never know when to breed them. They have small litters and you only ever get a pound off of them. Not worth it, to me. If I need to run and am bringing only things I can carry, a pair of rabbits would do just fine, and get me A LOT more meat for my time. 

I don't know how to care for a horse, but if I was lucky and TEOTW came, my mom (who does know horses) would be there. She could deal with catching them.  Lots of Feral Horses round here, and mom was known as a young teenager who could break any horse you gave her. 

Everything else seems like too much works to try and keep. Although If I HAD all those animals, First to go loose would be pigs. Then dogs (I don't mind if mine are roving and bothering others trying to bother me) Then goats. Chickens and rabbits I wouldn't...maybe chickens. My dogs would need to be chicken proof, though.


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## KIT.S (Oct 8, 2008)

Guinea hogs work great on pasture. They also eat anything else they come across, but do just fine with pasture only. I raise them rather than the bigger hogs, and just letting big hogs go feral would make the garden nearly impossible. They'd break in and demolish everything in just one trip.
Our Muscovie ducks do not require feeding, summer or winter, and if they free range, the heritage turkeys seldom eat what grain is offered either. The chickens don't lay as well in the winter with no supplimental feed, but they do fine in the summer. Geese eat grass almost exclusively. And some breeds of sheep (Finn especially) eat everything and love blackberries and browse rather than "good" pasture. 
And yes, while we have stores put by for the humans, it's tough to store enough feed for multiple years for the animals. We'll have to take over the empty 10 acre pasture next door.....Kit


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

KIT.S said:


> We'll have to take over the empty 10 acre pasture next door.....Kit


Thats part of my plan - neighbors are all elderly or absentee. Figure after about 3 months about 200+ acres immediately around us will be available....


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

tinknal said:


> Yep, broodies are great. I'm thinking if one could incubate an abundance that they would make excellent trade bait. I read an article about incubating with large bags of heated grain to maintain warmth. They incubated eggs as far back as ancient Egypt. Of course they had slaves to do the work.


incubation is a bit of an art...I've not had much success....a bantam hen is almost 100%


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

In the very poor third and fourth world countries I have visited everybody has goats, and chickens. They are easy to keep and can live off the land.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

tinknal said:


> Maybe in Arkansas.
> 
> I was speaking specific to northern climates. From sometime in October til sometime in April I would have to provide every calorie those birds consume, and without artificial light they won't produce much in those months.


We would have to do what farmers did long ago... Kill off half of the poultry in the fall and preserve the meat. The remaining hens and roos would be used to start the flock again in the spring. Then you don't have to provide as much feed in the winter.


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

We already raise *Jacob sheep*. They forage/graze all year round, through snow! Very hardy animals. Good fleece, great meat and you can milk them.

*Chickens*. Ours hardly ever touch commercal feed now, they free range and eat all the seeds and bugs they can find. Meat and Eggs. Get good broody stock. No incubator necessary, they do it all for you. Easy!

*Pigs*. Good ratio of meat to feed. Fairly easy to care for and we pasture raise.

*Bees*. Honey and pollination of fruits and vegetable garden. 

This is what we do now, plus we hunt and have a well stocked *fish* pond. I don't think I would change a thing.

Our LGD protects all the animals and us. Invaluable.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

One thing that the southerners don't take into account is the absoultly explosive plant growth after a long winter. Here with good ground you can harvest hay and use the ground for grazing. I've seen the grass go from brown to green to thigh high in about 16 days.


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## Durandal (Aug 19, 2007)

Everyone is talking about animals to eat. Plenty of wild the first year and plenty of good neighbors with chickens.

What you going to do when the fuel runs out? 

HORSES. Maybe cattle/ox but horses are the best, especially if you have heavy haulers. We've kept all our horse drawn equipment used by the family three generations prior, mainly for show but they provide a nice fabrication model to build from.

Grain drill, planter, harvester, several plows, mowers, and the like.

You need to be able to grow bulk crops without fuel. Doing it by hand can be done but animals will do it who lot faster...and in bulk.


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## electronrider (Nov 10, 2004)

Boy, a lot of you sure do list a lot of animals! I am curious how you are going to produce all the feed needed for these veritable noah's arks!:happy0035:

My plan is rabbits chickens and bees. The chickens can be free ranged for the most part, and so are the bees. That leaves rabbit food for total items having to stock and or produce on my own. I cannot immagine having enough fuel on hand to support a cow, a few goats, etc. etc. and would not even want to consider how much physical labor would be involved if we had no fuel.


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## salmonslayer91 (Oct 10, 2010)

many goats if they have access to good forage will take care of them selves as goats very easily go feral 

in my "plan" 
id have goats chickens geese/ducks rabbits maybe quail and bees


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Free range long-pig:hammer:

MMMMMMM--mm!


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## Illini (Apr 13, 2009)

kirkmcquest said:


> Free range long-pig:hammer:
> 
> MMMMMMM--mm!


Do remember to cook it well and avoid the brain and spinal tissue . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_(disease)


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

It's going to depend on the situation. If it is so bad that zombies are wandering around, then rabbits are about it.

Even city raised zombies recognizes that a rooster crowing means Kentucky Fried Chicken is just over there.

Nearly all farm animals are noisy and most people recognize farm animal noises and that they mean a source of food.


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## cc (Jun 4, 2006)

If I could pick out what I wanted to get it would probably be goats for milk and meat and pigs for meat. (Pigs would be free range until time to butcher.) I would like to have some chickens also but that would be an iffy sort of thing, long story with my DH and birds. As it stands now cattle would probably be the main animal along with the horses for transportation and farm work.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

I told what animals I have & plan to acquire, but forgot to say how I plan to keep them.

The banty chickens, ducks, & guineas free range and only get grain when/if snow is on the ground. They do very well year round in my area. If for some reason I could not keep them, all but the breeding stock would be butchered in the fall. The following spring eggs would be hatched to build the flock up again.

The goats browse most of the year, but get hay a couple months. They don't eat much and I believe we can harvest enough to keep them perpetually. If not, then all but the breeding stock would be either sold, bartered, or butchered in the fall. Flocks can always be built back up with good breeding stock.

The donkeys will be used for plowing the garden, pulling a wagon, and they don't eat much. A hand full of grain a day in addition to a flake of hay keeps them happy all winter.

I have seed to grow many grains that the chickens and other animals like. In the old days our ancestors would grow mangles to feed the larger stock. I will grow mangles this year to test that method. 

I will probably add a couple of feeder pigs to the farm this year. Hogs are good for clearing land, prepping new gardens, turning non-eatables into eatables, (they become great ham & bacon.) I've raised hogs on pasture before and it worked out very well.

I've mixed animals that many say can't be mixed. My goats, donkeys, and pigs run together in the same pasture. They can be compatible since each eats what the others leave. I won't mix sheep with goats so sheep is not on my list of animals to acquire in the future. A neighbor raises sheep so I can probably barter for lamb chops in the future.

All but the donkeys can be brought into the basement for protection if need be. The donks are pretty good at taking care of themselves so may be ok left in the pasture, especially when kept close to the house. They have a nasty habit of kicking any animal or human they don't know.


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