# Insulated Pump House



## PorkChopsMmm

From this thread on shallow wells I have decided that I should build an insulated pump house. Here are some pictures of a design I came up with. Unfortunately I couldn't get the program to show you the framing of the box. What do you think? *This would be located in zone 5, Michigan.* We have a solar for electricity and we are offgrid.

Here are the specs:

- Top to bottom, without the hinged "roof" is 6 ft tall
- 4 ft wide
- Marine grade plywood over treated 2x4's
- Black poly plastic covering the plywood sides
- Hinged steel roof, also framed with treated 2x4's
- Heavily insulated with rigid foam board

My plan was to buy it 3 ft in the ground with 3ft of the pump house above the surface. The diagrams show the shelf that holds the pump and pressure tank at the 3ft level. I will need to frame the shelf to support the weight of the pressure tank adequately. 

I was also planning to backfill around exposed 3 ft of the pump house with dirt and river stone to help insulate the box above the ground. 

Thoughts? I was also planning to wrap the pipes with the electrical warming "tape" that would be controlled via a thermostat. 

What do you think?


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## Bearfootfarm

> My plan was to buy it 3 ft in the ground with 3ft of the pump house above the surface


I don't see the point in going below the surface with the building itself
If you're trying to insulate below the frost line, you can accomplish that by burying styrofoam insulation around the perimeter then backfilling

Any *wood* below grade level is going to rot pretty quickly.
Instead of coveriing with dirt and rock, I'd use thick styrofoam on the inside.

If I were determined to cover it with dirt and rock, I'd build it out of concrete block so it would never rot

I'd also consider giving yourself enough headroom to work inside without being on your knees


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## Studhauler

Put an electric heater inside of it. I would use a 2 foot baseboard heater. 

Lay your styrofoam flat around the perimeter. So it is 4 feet in every direction, That is the new building code, supposedly it works better than putting it strait down 4 feet.


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## jwal10

Pour a slab over styrofoam insulation, build a small wooden well insulated shed big enough to cover the pump and tank, use spray in expanding foam to fill all cracks. Build it so you can remove easily. A 60 watt light bulb a foot off the floor near the piping will keep it from freezing if you are using water, it is above freezing and the pump makes some heat. Never had one freeze....James


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## PorkChopsMmm

Thanks for the advice. Looks like I may keep it off of the ground with cinder blocks and then mound dirt around it -- with a plastic barrier. I can't use 60 watt bulbs or similar because this is off-grid. I am trying to use the natural temperature difference with the ground and below the freeze line (36" to 42") to help keep the pump house above freezing.


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## fishhead

If you are intending on using the heat from the groundwater 3' below the ground level it should work fine. There's an almost infinite amount of heat in it. They make livestock waterers that work on the same principle.

I think marine plywood should last a long time under those conditions.

For the first winter you may want to drain the system just to make sure it works. Put a glass jar filled with water and capped to see if it freezes while you are gone.


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## PorkChopsMmm

fishhead, I was thinking of setting some PVC pipes vertically in the ground before and backfilling in around them, under the pumphouse. Do you think this would be enough to let some warm air rise from the ground? 



fishhead said:


> If you are intending on using the heat from the groundwater 3' below the ground level it should work fine. There's an almost infinite amount of heat in it. They make livestock waterers that work on the same principle.
> 
> I think marine plywood should last a long time under those conditions.
> 
> For the first winter you may want to drain the system just to make sure it works. Put a glass jar filled with water and capped to see if it freezes while you are gone.


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## Bearfootfarm

> I was thinking of setting some PVC pipes vertically in the ground before


I don't think you'd get any circulation that way.

If you made "U" shaped pieces, it might draw up some air, especially if one side was higher than the other.

Another thing is if it's insulated *REALLY well*, you could heat it with a kerosene lantern, or even a few large candles


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## Allen W

Dad's old well pit is caving in, I've been after him to see about getting some of these new Styrofoam building forms and pour a new one. There is an old well pit on this place that was made by digging the walls out with post hole diggers and pouring them then digging the pit out.


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## fishhead

PorkChopsMmm said:


> fishhead, I was thinking of setting some PVC pipes vertically in the ground before and backfilling in around them, under the pumphouse. Do you think this would be enough to let some warm air rise from the ground?


I tried that with a goose waterer but found that it takes a large pipe like the size of a culvert to allow enough heat to rise. A 4" pipe was not enough. When I put a 60 watt bulb in the same insulated waterer I could keep a bucket of water open at -30 F.

I think if you dig the hole the size of your insulated pump house and dig it deep enough to reach the water or get close to it that should be enough. Or if you didn't want to do that I would think a piece of 24" plastic culvert dug down to the water should be enough. You might be able to find a scrap piece for that.

The key is to insulate the pump house well (6" of foam?) and to expose a large area of the groundwater heat to the pump house interior.

Do a search for geothermal livestock waterer or something like that.


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## PorkChopsMmm

Fishhead I did the search and turned up one of your threads. Very good info. Yes, I plan on insulating the pump house to an extreme. Would you add in a vent for summertime use so moisture wouldn't build up or am I overthinking things? I plan to make the pump house very well insulated and as air tight as possible. 

I have already put out some feelers for pipe that matches your dimensions. Thank you for all of the help!




fishhead said:


> I tried that with a goose waterer but found that it takes a large pipe like the size of a culvert to allow enough heat to rise. A 4" pipe was not enough. When I put a 60 watt bulb in the same insulated waterer I could keep a bucket of water open at -30 F.
> 
> I think if you dig the hole the size of your insulated pump house and dig it deep enough to reach the water or get close to it that should be enough. Or if you didn't want to do that I would think a piece of 24" plastic culvert dug down to the water should be enough. You might be able to find a scrap piece for that.
> 
> The key is to insulate the pump house well (6" of foam?) and to expose a large area of the groundwater heat to the pump house interior.
> 
> Do a search for geothermal livestock waterer or something like that.


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## Parttimefarmer

Do you have a way to vent it in the summer? With the black plastic it may get toasty in there. Ours is insulated log in the shade and gets hot. We keep a close eye on the temp because our batteries and inverter are in there too.


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## PorkChopsMmm

I am thinking of putting in a foundation vent that is "seal-able" for winter with a foam block. I wonder if it would be needed if I have the pipe venting 50 or 60 degree temperatures into the pump house. My inverter and batteries will be located in our cabin (AGM batteries, so safe for interior non-vented use) although I am tempted to build the pump house bigger and put them in there. 

I am thinking of a vent like this...












Parttimefarmer said:


> Do you have a way to vent it in the summer? With the black plastic it may get toasty in there. Ours is insulated log in the shade and gets hot. We keep a close eye on the temp because our batteries and inverter are in there too.


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## Parttimefarmer

I like that! Is there some sort of screening to keep mice out? 

We also stack straw around it in the winter. I forgot about that until I thought about mice.


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## fishhead

PorkChopsMmm said:


> Fishhead I did the search and turned up one of your threads. Very good info. Yes, I plan on insulating the pump house to an extreme. Would you add in a vent for summertime use so moisture wouldn't build up or am I overthinking things? I plan to make the pump house very well insulated and as air tight as possible.
> 
> I have already put out some feelers for pipe that matches your dimensions. Thank you for all of the help!


I don't know about the venting. My pump and indoor intake pipe drips all summer in my basement from the cold well water in the plumbing.

Maybe there would be a way to seal the second "story" from the moist air below during the summer.


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## Bearfootfarm

I'd keep the batteries inside where it wil be much warmer.
Batteries and cold aren't compatable.

The vent is a good idea too


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## PorkChopsMmm

Parttimefarmer said:


> I like that! Is there some sort of screening to keep mice out?
> 
> We also stack straw around it in the winter. I forgot about that until I thought about mice.


I think it has some sort of screen but I was going to put wire hardware mesh over it.



Bearfootfarm said:


> I'd keep the batteries inside where it wil be much warmer.
> Batteries and cold aren't compatable.
> 
> The vent is a good idea too


Yes, plus I need to limit the scope of this project. It could grow into a whole barn if I let it.


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## Parttimefarmer

We have a nice log barn, everyone should have one, LOL!


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## PorkChopsMmm

Here are some updated pictures of my design. Walls that are traditionally framed for strength, sitting on cement blocks, etc. My plan is to still mound dirt up around 3 sides and leave one side exposed. This wall will also be removable to access the pump.


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## Parttimefarmer

I would put the blocks on a trench of gravel if you have the same sandy soil. Also I would do 3 blocks across the front so the ugly sides aren't showing. Otherwise it looks good!


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## fishhead

PorkChopsMmm said:


> I think it has some sort of screen but I was going to put wire hardware mesh over it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, plus I need to limit the scope of this project. It could grow into a whole barn if I let it.


I can see it now.

A visitor asks. "What's the big building overlooking your house?"

Porkchop replies "Well.....it started out as a pumphouse.".


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## PorkChopsMmm

Parttimefarmer said:


> I would put the blocks on a trench of gravel if you have the same sandy soil. Also I would do 3 blocks across the front so the ugly sides aren't showing. Otherwise it looks good!


Thanks for the advice. I will definitely be using some gravel to help level things out. I will start building the box tomorrow night and will bring it up to our property during Labor day weekend for install. Pictures to follow!



fishhead said:


> I can see it now.
> 
> A visitor asks. "What's the big building overlooking your house?"
> 
> Porkchop replies "Well.....it started out as a pumphouse.".


Wow, you know me too well! I was day dreaming of housing my solar in there... then making it big enough for my lawn tractor... then big enough for a few cars!


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## Qhorseman

I have a buddy that uses the coals from his wood stove to heat his pump house. When he cleans his stove out in the morning and evening he puts the bucket of hot coals in the pump house. He hasn't had his pump freeze up yet, all he has is R19 in the wall and cieling.


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## PorkChopsMmm

This is a great idea. Thanks for the help!



Qhorseman said:


> I have a buddy that uses the coals from his wood stove to heat his pump house. When he cleans his stove out in the morning and evening he puts the bucket of hot coals in the pump house. He hasn't had his pump freeze up yet, all he has is R19 in the wall and cieling.


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## PorkChopsMmm

So I started on the pump house last night. I decided to reduce the dead space you see in the mock ups above -- between where the shelf is that holds up the pump and tank and the ground. It help make the structure lower to the ground while preserving the height from the shelf to the top of the box so that the pressure tank will fit. Here is my progress so far.

Concrete block base and one wall up.









Now 2 walls...









And how it sits now. I need to finish the roof, figure out a 'front door', begin covering it with plywood, and insulate.









I am thinking about framing in a door on the front that would allow me to access the pump and tank 









Any suggestions on how to do the door? I was thinking framed in so the door would be about 36" wide (the front area is 40" wide between the studs).


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## PorkChopsMmm

Here are some updates. I am going to drive these up on Friday and hopefully get it set up Saturday morning.


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## PorkChopsMmm

Any suggestions for what to use for running water into the house? I want to keep the line at 1" because that is what the pump outputs. I have read that the inner diameter for PEX at 1" is more like 3/4" copper. I have ready on here that polypipe can leak and is hard to keep from leaking. I am afraid to use PVC because it seems to be less tolerant to freezing. Again, this is zone 5 Michigan. Any recommendations for the 12' underground run that will also run about 4' vertically into the cabin? It will be under 3' plus of dirt and boxed and insulated as it comes into the cabin.


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## Parttimefarmer

Ours are metal of some sort, I believe copper to the house and barn and galvanized or some other grey pipe to the garden.

If I had to start fresh I might try PEX, I would not do PVC. From what I understand PEX is much more flexible, and really, I don't want to drink out of PVC. I have a friend that had a rental mobile home that the pipes would bust on, they changed to PEX, no issues since.

ETA: If I see a pump house on 31, I will beep.


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## fishhead

You may also want to insulate the pipe from the pump to the house. 1" pipe insulation boxed inside 2" of foam should give you a lot of freeze protection.


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## PorkChopsMmm

Parttimefarmer said:


> Ours are metal of some sort, I believe copper to the house and barn and galvanized or some other grey pipe to the garden.
> 
> If I had to start fresh I might try PEX, I would not do PVC. From what I understand PEX is much more flexible, and really, I don't want to drink out of PVC. I have a friend that had a rental mobile home that the pipes would bust on, they changed to PEX, no issues since.
> 
> ETA: If I see a pump house on 31, I will beep.


I think I may go with PEX then. It withstands freezing better and our place is very modest, so even our main being closer to 3/4" than 1" I don't think will be a problem. Thanks for the advice!



fishhead said:


> You may also want to insulate the pipe from the pump to the house. 1" pipe insulation boxed inside 2" of foam should give you a lot of freeze protection.


My plan was to box in the pipe from the ground up and into the cabin. You are right insulating the pipe and using rigid foam (both I have) will hopefully help keep it from being damaged. I was also going to run some heat tape in the pump house and on the pipe as it leads into the cabin to help on the really cold days and nights.


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## kasilofhome

I have had to have an above groung water line. It was a pain. It took work. I used a potable water hose, spiral wrapped with heat tape, slipped on the grey foam pipe insulation. Next layer of wrap was "slip plate" material ---it is thin foam I used 6 inch width stuff, I sprial that and then spiraled in a different direction cheap ele tape and then I repeated this for many layers it got to be six inches of wrapping. The final layer was shrink wrap- it comes in a roll --like a lint tape roll. and I go over it and over it. Well it it helps anyone it worked.


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## PorkChopsMmm

The Pump house is install! It took a lot of effort and it isn't quite completed but at least it is set in the ground. I still need to tar the edge and wrap it in plastic before I berm earth around 2 sides of it.

Below are pictures -- it is closer to the cabin than I imagined. I don't think I could have built this any bigger and moved it by myself -- it was a struggle.

Can you find the pump house in this picture? Getting ready for the drive up.









In the ground. 










This shows the interior on the cinder blocks. I added an addition 2" of rigid foam all around the interior after this picture.










This is as far as I got. It is covered up until the next time I go up to put the steel roof on it and start to berm earth around it.









I added in a T and installed a hand pump. It works great. Our water quality isn't the greatest but I haven't bleached it in about 8 months and I need to let it pump for a while to see what I am working with.


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## Parttimefarmer

Good job! What is wrong with the water? Bleach? Ewww.

eta: Are you going to side it?


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## PorkChopsMmm

Parttimefarmer said:


> Good job! What is wrong with the water? Bleach? Ewww.
> 
> eta: Are you going to side it?


You are supposed to bleach water every year or so with a shallow well, or so I have been told. Especially since mine has been sitting without any use. The water has a slight odor to it and is sandy. I think letting the pump run for a while will help "set" the flow of water and settle the sand. This is all from what I have gathered on the internet, hopefully it will work. 

Yes, I plan to side it, on the sides that will be exposed, with quarter logs the same as the cabin and stained the same. I have leftover pieces of green steel roof that match so I should be all set.


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## Parttimefarmer

Hmm, ours is deeper, but we have good, clear water. Do you have a filter set-up?

What did you stain with btw? Ours is getting corn cobbed soon.


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## PorkChopsMmm

Parttimefarmer said:


> Hmm, ours is deeper, but we have good, clear water. Do you have a filter set-up?
> 
> What did you stain with btw? Ours is getting corn cobbed soon.


What's funny is we have another shallow point well 200 yards away and it has perfectly clear and great tasting water. It has been there for a few years, not sure if that makes a difference. There will be a charcoal filter in the pump house when I get to that point.

We used some PPG brand cedar colored stain. Looks good and after a year it has held up very well.


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## Parttimefarmer

Is it oil based? I just did the playhouse, it took two gallons of oil at $50/gallon. I am a bit scared to know how much the house stain will cost me. It hasn't been done in 13 years, so it needs it.


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## PorkChopsMmm

Parttimefarmer said:


> Is it oil based? I just did the playhouse, it took two gallons of oil at $50/gallon. I am a bit scared to know how much the house stain will cost me. It hasn't been done in 13 years, so it needs it.


Sorry for the slow response. It was not oil based stain but the newer regular stuff. Since the place is a new build I need to re-stain it this Spring anyway, but it is holding up well.


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## PorkChopsMmm

Some new pictures. I finished insulating the inside and wrapping it in black plastic. I still need to actually put the pump inside, wire up the electrical, and berm earth/put on siding. I ordered 6 yards of top soil and 20 or so large river stones to do the job.

Finished insulating the door.









And the roof...









Just a picture showing the seams on the inside.









I used some rubber gasket material that is used for sealing garage doors to seal this door. I like how it lined up and with the weight of the roof I think it will door a good job making a tight seal.









And the last pictures I have of the it wrapped in plastic. I went back after this picture and covered the bottom edge of the front door support in plastic, too.









I need to get a thermometer to help measure the temperature. Over the next few nights it is going to get down into the 30's. I wish I was there to monitor the inside temp.


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## fishhead

Set a thin walled jar full of water inside to see if it gets below freezing. I doubt it will until it gets really cold.


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## PorkChopsMmm

fishhead said:


> Set a thin walled jar full of water inside to see if it gets below freezing. I doubt it will until it gets really cold.


Will do. Hopefully with the earth bermed around the pump house it won't freeze inside... my whole reason for building it.


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## fishhead

Didn't you say that there was water down about 3'?


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## PorkChopsMmm

fishhead said:


> Didn't you say that there was water down about 3'?


Yes, or thereabouts.


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## PorkChopsMmm

Update to an old thread. We moved into the house last May and the pumphouse has been doing well without any big changes. We added a large pressure tank as shown in the earlier Sketchup mockups. Didn't freeze once this winter without any external heat -- so it looks like the heat from the pump running, the water temperature in the pressure tank, and from the 3ft pipe going into the ground kept the temperature up. The lowest air temp I ever saw in the pumphouse, using a thermometer with a probe that is permanently mounted in the pumphouse, was low 30 degrees. Not bad.

P.S. I never did berm earth around it. It is just a freestanding structure. Not sure how it stays so warm but it never froze.


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## fishhead

With the water table so close to the surface it probably tapped into the infinite amount of heat in the earth. It wouldn't hurt to put a thermostatically controlled heat tape around the pipes just in case you get a freak cold spell.


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## PorkChopsMmm

Good idea. I had heat tape ready but didn't want to open the pump house and let it get even colder inside. When had quite a few nights below 0 and she never skipped a beat.


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