# Some step by step?



## Eden'sgardener (Jan 16, 2012)

I have an 8-9 mo old GP/Ant Shep mix "pup". Initially, he was very laid back and showed no interest in my chickens. This was why I agreed to take him, trading in the first rescue dog who showed WAY too much interest in them and had 0 manners. (She was also already older and we found out had been raised as a pet.) 

I've tried to establish a routine every day - when I first come out each morning, we "work" with the leash on, feeding the chickens and opening up the coops, etc., though he is kept separate from them when unsupervised. Then I feed him, the horses and THEN we have some recreation time. 

I don't have another dog for him to play with yet - we're on the rescue list, but must have another one that is calm and "chicken" friendly. So I have become not only alpha dog, but playmate. Not sure if this was such a good idea, but was afraid he'd get bored if left all alone all of the time. 

He does still respond to my "Leave it!" (and the first few times and each time if he doesn't seem to "hear" me, gets "rolled and pinned"), and lets me go out the door first, and other submissive traits. So I think I'm still alpha to him. 

But Bear, just in the past 2 weeks, seems to have a new interest in the chickens. In fact today, he was playing by himself and I went into the chicken pen to clean the coop - out of no-where, he came charging in there and chased. I think he likes to see them fly. LOL 

Of course I immediately gave the "Leave it!" command and pinned him down. But why all of a sudden this interest in them? Are we going backwards? Does he just need a play mate (as in, another dog)

I don't have an extremely large area for him, but what I've read said that is ok as you want them to bond with their animals, the chickens. I want him to know he is to be with the chickens. Even when we start to rotate the flocks around, he needs to be with them. I use a combo of netting and fencing right now to keep flocks apart. We were under siege of a bobcat so they all came in from free range to where they are now. 

I also will have to do more fencing before he can go out of the current area. but he doesn't seem to care to leave the area at all. 

More toys? More play time? What should our routine be daily? How often should I "work" with him? (i currently leash him and "check the chickens" about 3 or 4 times a day)

any input would be helpful. he is a good, smart dog - I just don't want to "ruin" him or make too many mistakes. Thanks!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> But why all of a sudden this interest in them?


This is why:



> I have an *8-9 mo old *GP/Ant Shep mix "pup


He's getting older and more bold.
Another dog won't help, and could just make it worse.

Keep telling him *no* whenever he chases the birds.
If you intend to leave him alone with the birds, you may need to get a shock collar so you can correct him from a distance, since he won't misbehave if you are there.

Go ahead and fence a larger area for him too.
They get bored easily if they don't have room to explore.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I am not a huge fan of shock collars but used correctly, they WORK. One of my 8 month Anatolians decided that the sheep needed to be his friend, even if they didn't want to. He really just wanted to play, but the sheep would panic and run, so of course he ran after them. I tried NO, BACK OFF and all of those good commands but he did not listen. So I bought him a shock collar. Two little zaps is all it took for him to stop chasing. He isn't afraid of them and will still walk calmly up to them, but he does not chase after them if they run anymore. He's a perfect gentleman. He does not know I pushed the button...I was in the house watching him from the window. All he knows is when he runs after the sheep, he gets a little zap.


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## Eden'sgardener (Jan 16, 2012)

LOL - I was reading on another thread about the "electrified chickens" and it made me chuckle. I can look into that - but question, once you do that, do you have to leave that collar on them all the time? Or just for a few days? or ? 

Also, on getting a 2nd dog, we have packs of pitts that roam the pasture from time to time and I am afraid 1 LGD will not be able to protect the flock, or itself, from 2 or 3 dogs. 

Also, (sorry I'm a total LGD rookie) what makes these dogs not just want to play with other dogs that happen to arrive in their pasture? And, since I'm an urban farm, what will keep them from wanting to go hang out at the fenceline of neighbors' dogs? 

I'm just scared of the fighting - although, I know that is what they are here for, to protect my poultry including fighting if needed. I just hate to see dogs fight.  

Thank you both for the fast reply. I'll keep up our routine then, since neither of you seemed to have any notes on that part, and yes, we're going to work on expanding the area - it's just very costly. Looked at the havaheart custom fencing that uses radio signals to "remind" them not to cross an area and it's nearly 1k for 2 dogs. Nothing I'm sure compared to real fencing, we've already spent nearly 2k to fence in a very small area with 6' horse fencing. Which may have been overkill, but it will surely keep out other dogs and coyotes anyway.


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## Eden'sgardener (Jan 16, 2012)

One other question if I may - do you suggest I look for an older dog, or get Bear up and running for x months and then intro a younger puppy? I have a friend with some LGD's that have been raised around chickens, and she's actually offered me to come "catch" one of them. They no longer have chickens and they don't have much of a job now. But, their dogs have total free reign over at least 100 acres and I'm a bit hesitant that it will be very upset at being confined. Even though it may teach mine not to chase the poultry, I'm concerned the bad habit of trying to get out will over-rule the training I can do myself. 

input on that question? Again, the reason for more than one is the protection against pitt bull dogs that frequent our pasture. Otherwise, I'm sure 1 could handle the occasional coyote/bobcat/skunk/raccoon. 

thanks,


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

If her dogs are totally unsocialized, I'd pass on that offer. That's the last thing you need is a semi-feral LGD. Why on earth people do that to their dogs is beyond me. 

I think if it were me, I'd get Bear up and running first before bringing in a new puppy. I know I want to get a female Anatolian but plan to wait until closer to the end of this year, when my pups are 18 months old or so.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Two little zaps is all it took for him to stop chasing


That's been my experience also

LGD's are SMART animals, and they learn FAST


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Oh yeah....they learn REAL fast. I was amazed at how good he was after that second zap. And it did not make him afraid of the sheep either, which was a little bit of a concern for me. The next time I put the sheep in the pasture ( a week later), Eli was happy to see them, but remembered his lesson from the week before and did not chase at all, even when they all went running right past him! I could tell the sheep were much more relaxed too. They spent way more time grazing and not nearly as much tiime trying to get back into the paddock.


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## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

as said before, he is at that age.

If he gets a hold of a chicken, most likely he will kill it because and mind you he didn't mean to kill it...but these dogs aren't 'soft mouthed'.

So grab the chicken and with the best acadamy award winning drama you can muster.... hug the chicken, get melodramatic! what did you do? (push the chicken toward the dog), my poor chicken... <pace back and forth>, oh my <faking like you are distrat.. which you may actually be> and keep it up for a few minutes until you see those gears turning behind those beautiful LGD eyes.

I usually loose 1-3 chickens with each pup from ages 8mo to 11 mo. After that they get it. Why 1-3 chickens? some pups are just brighter then others! LOL!

Of course reprimanding as it happens if best but if you loose one... let him know by changing your behavior and they get something is wrong. that is why I hug the chicken, with it in hands extend my arms so he sees what I am upset over. I can do this after the fact and they know!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> LOL - I was reading on another thread about the "electrified chickens" and it made me chuckle. I can look into that - but question, once you do that, do you have to leave that collar on them all the time? Or just for a few days? or ?


They only wear the collar while you're teaching them.

They seem to associate the correction with the behavior, and not the collar itself


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## Eden'sgardener (Jan 16, 2012)

Well, I'll be keeping the chickens out of his reach for awhile - after the pitt bulls and bobcat, I'm down to 8. I can't afford to lose them! These are my last 4 ameracauna from the original blood line here at the farm since we started raising them. I have 5 eggs incubating, hopefully they'll hatch out hens.  

All good suggestions - and I'm glad I went with my gut on NOT accepting the lgd from my friend. Just didn't sound like a good idea. 

I worry I'm with my Bear TOO much but it's the nature of where he lives and where I have stuff to do sometimes. He is too darn cute, too. ha ha Picks up that toy of his and carries it to me - "please play time now?" LOL 

He has been trying to convince the cat to play with him -to little avail. HE thinks they are playing, but she's not amused. ha ha 

Thank you all for your input. I'll be checking in for sure. And any step by step daily drills you suggest for chicken training is more than welcome. I'm only had German Shepherds before and they were all obedience training.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Play with Bear all you want while he is in his pasture. He isn't a pet, but he will still appreciate the interaction with you. Teach him basic obedience. He won't have the same level of obedience that the Shepherds you are used to, but he will learn and obey because he wants to please you. I adore my anatolian pups. I often sit in the pasture and they both come over and lay across my legs for belly rubs. They are very affectionate dogs. It's perfectly OK for him to bond to you and love you. I take one of mine to Tractor Supply whenever I go. He is a very social and outgoing dog, but also the best guardian once he's back home. He is VERY alert, especially at night and does an excellent job with the sheep. He loves them very much....but he loves me too. and that's the way i like it.


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## Eden'sgardener (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm so glad you said that BSheep, b/c a rancher (chickens and beef) gave me this advice and it seemed really 'old school" and not something I could really be happy doing;
1. important that the guard dog bonds to animals it is assigned to protect. Therefore, the human owner must ignore the dog except to feed and water it. no petting, no leash, no playing. this is a worker not a friend. from what i have heard from you it may already be too late for this dog to bond with chickens.
2. these dogs are bred to withstand the elements. they stay with their animals in heat, in rain, in cold, etc. putting them inside during bad weather defeats the purpose of having them standing guard. predators will take advantage of the bad weather and your chickens will be vulnerable. 24/7. sounds harsh but it works for us and they all survive - dog and chickens. our dogs can get under the chicken tractor for some protection.
3. guard dogs are not mature til 2 years old. they will play too hard with chickens and chickens will be maimed or killed. chain the young dog to the tractor 24/7. so that the chicken can get away from the dog if things get too rough. after a few months you can turn it loose but watch it and supervise his movements. if a chicken is killed take the dead chicken and hit the dog with it saying no no! these dogs are smart and they will learn from this. do not let it eat a chicken!
4. training these dogs is not really needed as a good guard dog will know what to do instinctively. not all Pyrenees, Anatolians, etc are meant to be guard dogs though. just like all border collies are not meant to be stock dogs. you may have to take a look at what this dog is doing and fire him if he's not doing his job, and go get another one that can perform! tough love


I'm codependent by nature - tough love is much tougher on me! LOL 

Today, I did put him up in the penned area, it's a fenced area within his normal "yard". He managed to squeeze into a chicken area and I heard the squawking... however, I came through the barn, other side of the fence - and said "leave it!" and he nearly stopped dead in his tracks! I was so happy!! I said "stay" and I had to walk around the barn to get in the area - and he was laying down where I had left him when I got there. Soooo happy!


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## Eden'sgardener (Jan 16, 2012)

Well, I posted something earlier, but I see it's floating in moderation land. It'll pop up sooner or later I guess....

Anyway, today, with Bear in the inner fenced area with the chickens, he got zapped by the poultry netting and I think he is now scared to be in there. Acted like he was sulking all day today and was looking for a way "out". (man when he stands up, he is TALL!)

Hopefully, he'll be ok and not dislike being in there, now. I did take him his toy and let him come out for awhile. But most of the day he was in there. At night, when I close up the coops anyway, I open the big gate so he can wander around and go in and out of the shop (where his food is). 

He made me so happy when he "leaved it!" this morning though - I'm still beaming!


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## Eden'sgardener (Jan 16, 2012)

Found an injured rooster and blood on Molly's coat yesterday. (Molly is the new 3yr old GP.)

Initially, I couldn't figure out where the blood came from - wasn't a lot - but I looked all on Bear, on her, nothing - the chicken area looked quiet, etc.

However, later on in the day, I noticed that I had mistakenly left the inner gate ajar, those 4 fowl must have wandered out into the outer area (of the chicken pens, there is still another gate that can keep the dogs out of the entire chicken area, but it too was open so they could patrol the area.).

One of the roosters was bloody about his head and acting all strange, lethargic. uh oh I thought.....

Now, he has been arguing with one of his brothers lately - since being confined and down to two hens - so it may be they really got at it with each other; and Missy only sniffed or tried to break it up. OR, maybe Bear chased, got a mouthful and she took him off of the rooster. I'll never know unless that rooster starts talking - in which case, I'll be wealthy enough to build a fortress around my farm and not have to worry about predators again. LOL

So I closed off the outer gate to the pen area, took the rooster in of course to doctor him and observe him overnight, and I will def proceed with caution till I can see what is going on.

I have roofing work to do in an area that overlooks the whole dog pen/chicken pen area so I'll be able to keep a close eye on things today. I sure hope it was the 2 roosters bickering - that's easier to resolve then if one of my dogs has started to get a hankering for chicken.....


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## Eden'sgardener (Jan 16, 2012)

I lost a rooster today. And yes, Westbrook, I would have won an Oscar, my tears were real - I'm a city girl who loves her chickens like pets. (not that everyone doesn't love their animals, I just get too attached).

Anyway, Molly, the 3yrd old rescue, did seem to get it that I was upset. I cried out NO NO NO Molly - several times while holding the bloodied roo. My big fear; she had started to eat it. Blood on her jowls, and he was ripped open. I found her coming out of her dining when I entered the gated area. 

It didn't appear as though my pup had joined in. Nothing but mud all over him. But there was another hen pretty rattled. Who knows if they were both chasing or not. I suspect the rooster was trying to protect her - and lost his own life. Which, I suppose, is his job. 

I'd been out earlier, around lunch time, but it's been raining and flooding here so not much work to do outside today. I came out again at 4ish and that is what I found. Food bowl still had food in it from this am. 

So, besides the shock collar, which I'm looking into, any other advice? I had been keeping them separate from the fowl, while I wasn't with them, but I suspect the wind blew open one of the panels and gave them entry - Bear, the pup, came out of the penned area but the 2 hens were in the coop - hiding. Normally there is poultry netting or a low gate between them all. 

Oh dear, I hate this. She is such a sweet dog I sure don't want to give up if there is hope -and having come from an apparently abusive home, I hate shuffling her around. I've never raised a hand to her - she's so coy as it is, she cowls down if you raise your hand to pet her too quickly. She certainly knew I was upset, but when I got back from taking care of the rooster, she was all tails and smiles - bloody smiles. I wiped the blood from her face. Her first home was for an FFA kid who apparently got bored with AG and tied her up to a tree and left her. The aunt called rescue people in and she's been on farm again, the past year and half. I imagine left her in the pouring rain, too, as she hated the rain today - stayed under cover opting not to get out in it. She must have figured Bear had it all under control. (he's the pup, for those maybe new to the thread)

Earlier in this thread, I noted what one ranch owner/trainer suggested - that I beat her with the dead chicken and scream and yell. No one really commented on that entry. Does this not sound a bit extreme? That, and tying them up 24/7 to the coop without any attention cept when you feed them? 

I have never had working dogs like this, so I'm sorry I'm so full of questions. Hopefully, others will come along and read the thread, too, and learn from my mistakes - like, be sure your panels are VERY secured. 

I don't think I'll be eating chicken for dinner any time soon. ugh.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

EG I'm too pressed for time and work to read all these long comments but the 'old school' ranchers' advice did catch my eye, and I would disagree with a good part of it.

Some of this 'old school' stuff is really 'new school' stuff that came about with Coppinger and his studies and the 'don't touch your LGD' stuff started and only got worse (my opinion only folks). Thankfully the pendulum is now swinging back to the middle and people are realizing, you need to interact with your dog, your stock, etc. 

I confess I don't 'do' fowl with my LGD's it is too much work and my focus here is protecting normal sized livestock (sheep, goats) and my pups have gone on to protect those and bigger stock (cattle, horses) successfully. Have had a couple do chickens but their owners are to be commended for doing the training I didn't. I have to draw a line at some point and here, I finally cooped up and fenced in my free ranging fowl so they can roam but the dogs can't get to them. If one escapes and they do now and then, they are quickly killed. It is too tempting for dogs to chase them. And when you run more than one or two dogs the pack mentality can set in and its a free for all. But I do sympathize with you.

I've heard the beating with a dead chicken line before, I would never beat a dog with anything so I don't buy that. Still dead set against the use of shock collars, personally. 

This is where you REALLY become old school and do it like eons ago, you slow down, you take time, you really put a lot of work into it. You work with your pup/dog and chickens every day and you don't turn them loose in there until you know they are comfortable with the birds and aren't going to chase them.

Well that is my feeling anyhow, best of luck to you. Hopefully chicken LGD people will chime in (I mean those whos' dogs guard chickens not scardy cat LGD owners lol!)


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## Eden'sgardener (Jan 16, 2012)

Goatress. I have been keeping them apart, I guess the wind blew down one of the panels - we'd had a pretty good storm today. I should have been more careful to check up on things as it was windy. I'll be re-wiring tomorrow you can be sure of that!

Thank you for the advice. I have nothing but time, just not a lot of flock left. LOL That's pretty easy to remedy, I know I can pick up chickens probably pretty inexpensively at auction, I just like to keep my flock in house so I don't have to worry so much about introducing illnesses, etc. 

So you think even though she started to eat it, she can be saved for this work? I truly hope so as I do really like her demeanor. She's so sweet, and gets along with my pup. Even seemed to be showing him to "patrol". 

Keep the advice coming please as you all have time - I know it's a busy life. 

Many thanks.

EG


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## Lannie (Jan 11, 2004)

OK, I'm a scaredy-cat, I mean CHICKEN, LGD owner. 

One thing I've never witnessed myself, but have heard over and over and over again, is that LGDs dispose of dead stock. That's part of their job. The first part is protecting the stock, however, if one dies, for whatever reason, they MUST remove all evidence of death, to prevent attracting predators. I realize you think Molly killed that rooster, and she may well have done so, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

I have two GPs right now, one is just a year old, and he plays with my chickens, every once in a while. He has never actually killed one, but he's scared two of them to death. I would EXPECT one of them, probably my older female, to dispose of the body if I didn't come along right away and find it. I've heard so many heartbreaking stories about people shooting their good dog because they caught it eating a dead lamb or kid, and wrongfully assuming the dog killed it. If the baby was born dead, or died right after birth, that dog was doing its job, and for that it got a bullet. Those kinds of stories really hurt to hear.

So. I know you're talking about a rooster, not a stillborn lamb, but I wanted you to know this about LGDs for the future. Whether one of your dogs killed your rooster is unknown at this point. Maybe they did. Maybe something else happened and Molly was just doing her job of cleaning up. I would continue to be cautious in your shoes, but I wouldn't condemn her on circumstantial evidence.

Maybe someone with actual experience in the "eating the dead stock" scenario can either confirm what I said, or tell me what I've been reading is all wrong. I'm just passing on what I've read, but maybe it falls into that "old school knowledge" BS, so if I'm perpetuating a falsehood, someone please set me straight.

~Lannie


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## Eden'sgardener (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm hoping it was not intentional, too. I'm hoping they got in there and started chasing around, which of course needs to be stopped, too, and the rooster was protecting the hens - and one thing led to another.... and then, yes, maybe like you said, she was hiding the evidence. I've heard that one other time, too. 

Tomorrow we start at square 1. Leash walking, (which she is strange on a leash - I fear she was beaten with it or something, but she's getting better - with treats.  )

If she shows interest, I correct with "leave it" and if needed, an alpha roll. I've not done that to her, as it's not been needed - ever in the week she's been here. (or almost a full week now) But she really knew she's messed up I think. She was all waggin' tails again just now when I went out there to feed the cat. I leashed her, took her for "rounds", which take awhile cuz she stalls on that leash till I get her to relax. 

I'm really glad no one here has advocated the beating method. whew. I couldn't handle that. I'd have to just keep my chickens in fencing like goatress. And if it comes to that, so be it, their being around alone will probably keep most predators away - wild ones anyway. 

Thanks Lannie. You scaredy cat you.


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## Eden'sgardener (Jan 16, 2012)

Not good news. I've gone back to square one with both dogs - on leash with me one at a time in the penned area each morning to let out/feed the flocks. Neither has done much more than glance at the chickens, and when they do, I yank the leash a bit and say "NO!". Both have responded just fine. However.....

For whatever reason, one of my hens decided to fly out of the penned area - up over a 6' horse fence. I must have been working out back when it happened cuz I never heard the stir. But right as I was feeding tonight, I saw a tuft of feathers - and thought, that's strange? And as I investigated, Bear, started towards the remains - and Molly who was eating, started towards him - as if to protect her desert? I'm not sure. But the hen was pretty well gutted. 

I put on my performance, to get their sympathy, but it didn't seem to have the same affect tonight as it did the first time? Perhaps b/c it was so much afterwards? Neither dog had blood on them, so who knows who did what - I'm going to have to look into a cheap camera or something that I can watch them from. I can't really see them too well from the house as there are trees and such in the way - even with binoculars. 

We are set to sign adoption papers Sunday for Bear...... should I be having 2nd thoughts? Or should I just keep my chickens separate, keep training and hope for the best? He's seems like such a smart dog - both of them do. But I can't trust them at all. I'm so sad and confused. This is the part of farming I don't like. I hope to get some good advice. Thanks guys.


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