# Best Small 9mm for Carry ?



## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

...............I've been holding out for a kel tec 22 mag , but they will only work properly with about (3) brands of ammo so I have decided a 9mm with multishot clip is the best caliber to purchase from ! So , please , educate me about a small , quality 9mm for carry . I , have looked but there are so many brands I just get lost . , thanks , fordy


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## Karenrbw (Aug 17, 2004)

I've got to say that there isn't any comparison between a Keltec and one of the several 9mm options offered by Kahr. CW9 or PM9 is an excellent choice. Lightweight, dependable, and high quality.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I like the Ruger LC9 , carry it all the time.


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## unregistered41671 (Dec 29, 2009)

I really like my Kahr PM9. It is a bit pricey but for a pocket gun, I would have no trouble depending on it in a self defense situation. The Kahr manual does say that it needs to have at least 200 rounds fired through it in order to be able to depend on it. They are really 'tight' out of the box. I have put lots more than 200 rds and never a failure. Quality weapons.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

G26...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab 2


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

.............OK , just got off Cabela's website , I like both the Ruger LC9($579)-7 Rnds , and the Glock G30S(619)-10 Rnds ! I especially like Glock because of it's quality and it holds 10 rounds , both pistols look to be the same size , physically . So , I may make a run to Cab's in the next week and see how each pistol actually , feels , in my hand ! , thanks , fordy


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

The g26 will fire reliably from 0-100, 000 rounds out of the box. 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab 2


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

you need to find better prices , my LC9 was 401 out the door with tax and all jan 2012

they are up 30 dollars or so but almost 600 is nuts.


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## Rockwell Torrey (Aug 14, 2013)

I like the Ruger LC9 given your specs.


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## dkhern (Nov 30, 2012)

i have kel tec p11 really like it. 10 rd mag and can use s&w 5900 mags in either 9 or 40 cal i also like the optional belt clip can use w/o holster. i can carry in front pocket of levis


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Kel-Tec: cheap, but reliable, Not especially accurate, IME.
Taurus 709 Slim: a good value for the money.
Ruger: good weapon.
Glock: feels a bit chunky to me. Very dependable.
Kahr: great gun, but I hear about some mag problems
S&W Shield: good weapon. A bit better trigger than the Ruger.


These are the guns I'd look at...


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> I like the Ruger LC9 , carry it all the time.[/QUOTE
> 
> I think...That's what I'm getting, next payday. My DSWife has a couple of Keltek 9mm's. She loves them. I've shot them. And, They're okay. But, I'm a Ruger fan.
> I've been carrying a Ruger LCR .38 Special, for awhile, a couple of years. It's light and handy.
> ...


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Hereâs what I carry when I canât get away with a larger pistol, itâs a Walther PPS (Police Pistol Slim). At under an inch wide and 19.4 ounces itâs a pretty small package that shoots like a full size pistol. Not as small as some of the sub-compacts out there, but again it shoots like a much larger pistol accuracy wise. Magazines come in 6, 7, and 8 rounds that increase the grip length. The trigger is DA like a standard Glock trigger. 

Iâve owned mine for about 2 years and have a little over 1800 rounds through it without a hitch. Unlike the Glock it has cut rifling, so shooting cast lead is OK. It is a little more expensive than the others mentioned, and the magazines are also up there. Iâve shot the Rugers, Shield, and a couple Kahrâs and prefer the Walther.

Hereâs mine with the 6rd flush mag in an MTAC IWB holster:



The Walther site with more info:

http://www.waltherarms.com/products/handguns/pps/

Reviews:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unOXaB3QoYk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unOXaB3QoYk[/ame]
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/04/27/walther-pps-review/

Chuck


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

fordy said:


> .............OK , just got off Cabela's website , I like both the Ruger LC9($579)-7 Rnds , and the Glock G30S(619)-10 Rnds ! I especially like Glock because of it's quality and it holds 10 rounds , both pistols look to be the same size , physically . So , I may make a run to Cab's in the next week and see how each pistol actually , feels , in my hand ! , thanks , fordy


The G30 is a .45acp
If you are considering a .45, you should look at the Springfield XDs which also comes in 9mm now.
I like the Kahr or the XD
Had a Kel Tec PF9 that I liked a lot
There are a lot of good pistols out there, and for every pistol you'll find people who swear it's the best and others who will swear it's the worst.
Find a good quality pistol that fits your hand, and if you can, try to shoot a few.


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

I've got the Ruger LC-9. I like it. Reliable, easy to pocket carry, and mine cost 
$399 with extra clip about a year ago. The trigger pull took a little getting used to but I don't notice that anymore.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

I'm not big on guns made from Tupperware. And, I'm not a 9mm guy either. But, if I were in the market for a small, quality - the OP did say "small, quality" - 9mm, I would give serious thought to a Kimber Solo. I have owned two Kimber carry pistols (both 45acp) and found their quality, fit and finish to be excellent. The reveiws I've read on the Kimber Solo have been very positive.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

Cabin Fever said:


> I'm not big on guns made from Tupperware. And, I'm not a 9mm guy either. But, if I were in the market for a small, quality - the OP did say "small, quality" - 9mm, I would give serious thought to a Kimber Solo. I have owned two Kimber carry pistols (both 45acp) and found their quality, fit and finish to be excellent. The reveiws I've read on the Kimber Solo have been very positive.


...............I purchased a Kimber crimison carry 4 years back , I just want something a little smaller ! , fordy


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

fordy said:


> ...............I purchased a Kimber crimison carry 4 years back , I just want something a little smaller ! , fordy


 I didn't think 9mm got much smaller than the Solo. Of course, I am not that versed in what's available in the 9mm market.

5.5" long (2.7" barrel)
less than 1" wide
less than 4" high
17 ounces empty


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

For a true pocket gun, I carry a LCP. It's a 380 which isn't a bad choice in warm seasons using modern ammo. For winter I carry a 357.


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## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

I'll echo the recommendation for the Ruger LC9. For a small and reliable pocket gun, this is the best gun for the money. Or, spend twice as much (at least) and get a Kimber.


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## credee (Aug 17, 2013)

compact auto 9 frames and springs take a real beating. I don't trust aluminum to stand up to that abuse for long. So I only consider polymer frames for this. Kahr has been making pocket sized 9mm's for a long time, now. They skipped the alloy frames for a reason. The CM9 is the ideal pocket gun. The Keltec PF9 is ok, but the trigger pull can't compete with that of the Kahrs. They DO make a .22 unit for the Keltecs, tho. That's very helpful if you are not already very skilled and don't reload for the 9mm. Ditto for the version that Ruger Sells. The Beretta Nano and Boberg are a bit heavy. The Rorbaugh is alloy framed and very expensive. The pocketable .40's and .45's are not very controlable in rapidfire, especially by non-experts.

I see no reason to settle for a small 9 if you aren't going to use a pocket holster. You can have a LW Commander .45, much more power and range (if you are going to wear a belt rig.) The 9mm ammo for such short barrels is the CorBon 100gr PowRBall and the 160 gr load (1200 fps) is the best jhp factory load for the .45, too. The heavier, slower jhp's don't expand in flesh and blood (from short barrels). Anyone can shoot some varmints and discover that for themselves. The 380's don't expand, either, and if they did, they'd not penetrate well enough to be trusted for defensive work. 150 ft lbs just doesn't hack it. A .22lr rifle has 160 ft lbs, using CCI Stingers.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

credee said:


> The 9mm ammo for such short barrels is the CorBon 100gr PowRBall and the 160 gr load (1200 fps) is the best jhp factory load for the .45, too. The heavier, slower jhp's don't expand in flesh and blood (from short barrels). Anyone can shoot some varmints and discover that for themselves. The 380's don't expand, either, and if they did, they'd not penetrate well enough to be trusted for defensive work. 150 ft lbs just doesn't hack it. A .22lr rifle has 160 ft lbs, using CCI Stingers.


varmints and people are slightly different critters. Here's an excellent work on selecting self defense ammo using actual testing that says to stay away from the ultra-velocity rounds due to lack of penetration:



> You might notice that the list does NOT include any lightweight bullets with the exception of the Barnes 115gr version. The reason - especially if you've read the beginning of this article - should be clear already, but Doctor Roberts sums it up nicely as well: "With the exception of the Barnes 115 gr XPB all copper projectile, in general, most 9 mm 115 gr loads have demonstrated greater inconsistency, insufficient penetration, poor intermediate barrier capability, and failure to expand in denim testing than other 9mm bullets. For those individuals wanting to use lighter weight, supersonic 9 mm&#8217;s, I think a better alternative than the vast majority of 115 gr loads is to use the slightly heavier 124 to 127 gr bullets or the Barnes 115 gr all copper bullet"


http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/

It pretty much states that due to current bullet manufacturing most self defense calibers achieve about the same amount of expansion and penetration. He also gives a list of loads that have been tested and achieved the FBI standards. The article also covers shotgun and rifle loads that have actually been tested. A while back there was a thread on 147 grain for shorter barrels due to the reduced velocity loss because of increased barrel dwell time. A Winchester rep recommended their 147 grain load as the velocity decrease was significantly lower than with their HV loadings. I've chronographed factory 147 and 125 loads in my Walther's 3.2" barrel and found it to be true, the variation is less with the slower loads.

The old 147 grain subsonic loads designed for sub guns did have issues expanding at handgun MVs, but with modern designed bullets there isn't an issue that can be demonstrated by testing. 

Here's a very good video by a well respected trainer (now deceased) that delves into caliber effectiveness:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dA36NYLqns[/ame]

Chuck


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

I carry the LC9 as well. It's with me or by me 24/7, but there are an assortment of guns by the bedside. It was a tiny bit over 5 out the door with the laser sight, last fall. I do like the laser! It's an automatic on as I draw. Don't like the safety, and see no need for it on a DA only. It has been flawless, but I'm seriously considering stepping up to one of the little DA 45 ACPs.

But then...I also want to try one of the mini 380's. So many wants?


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Officer's model 1911 in 9mm, preferably the para ordnance high capacity version. Anything less is just that, less. Out of the lesser guns, I've taken a little shine to the Ruger SR9C.


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## Rollochrome (Apr 9, 2012)

I like the Ruger for summer pocket carry.

Glock for winter in a holster under coat or vest typically.


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## credee (Aug 17, 2013)

He didn't test on live critters, I did. all this 15" of penetration, car doors first, blah , blad, is the malarkey. try doing all that, and youll go to prison for unjustified escalation of violence, reckless endangerment, get your ass sued off. I don't want anthing that penetrates more than 10" of flesh and blood.I dont care what it does in jello, wood or car doors.


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## BurgerBoy (Mar 31, 2013)

I carry a Beretta PX4 Storm Compact. It holds 15 rounds of 9mm in the magazine.

I've never had a failure of any kind with it.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

credee said:


> He didn't test on live critters, I did. all this 15" of penetration, car doors first, blah , blad, is the malarkey. try doing all that, and youll go to prison for unjustified escalation of violence, reckless endangerment, get your ass sued off. I don't want anthing that penetrates more than 10" of flesh and blood.I dont care what it does in jello, wood or car doors.


That "malarky" is called terminal ballistics. If youâd bothered to do some simple research, youâd have learned that ballistic gelatin is designed and tested to closely replicate human muscle tissue. Itâs a known, repeatable medium for testing, unlike a coyote, groundhog etc. 


The 12-14â penetration goal, isnât some arbitrary number, it takes into account non-ideal target presentations, having to penetrate limbs, oversized (fat) targets, and barriers. Itâs the depth required to hit the CNS/major organ/artery consistently and was developed by the FBI as a result of the Miami Shootout 27 years ago (this week as a matter of fact) Google it. This incident played a major role in the development of modern defense ammo. These tests are exactly the way most law enforcement agencies select their duty ammo. 


So how exactly you could:


> youll go to prison for unjustified escalation of violence, reckless endangerment, get your ass sued off.


 
for using the same basic ammo that your local PD uses is beyond me, but maybe due to your extensive research you can cite a reference or two?

Anything and I repeat anything thatâs capable of consistently incapacitating a human being has the potential for over penetration. Thereâs no free lunch here.


If youâre willing to site some references to back-up your concerns we can continue, if not, Iâm done here. I do research/studies for a living. The information is available, but it cracks me up when someone âjust knowsâ but canât substantiate a single point theyâve made. 


Ballâs in your courtâ¦â¦â¦.


Chuck


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I am not a fan of 9mm at all.. but I ended up buying one recently because I was so impressed by the design, feel and quality of the only one I've bought.. 

I found a CZ-82 in great condition... There is also a civilian model called the CZ-83... CZ's are harder to find, but if you can, they usually sell for around $300 or less... The CZ-83 for a little more.. 

They shoot a 9mm Makarov round.. it's 1mm shorter than the 9mm Luger round... The ammo usually costs less than 9mm luger ammo does too... 

They have a very strong following because of their accuracy and because of a fantastic trigger and feel in your hand.

I carry mine quite a bit, and although it's a little bit on the heavy side when fully loaded (12+1) it's still easily concealable, and not too bad about dragging your pants down.. 

It's very comfortable in your hand and points very naturally... Those were two of the greater selling points to me... the other selling point was that it's both DA and SA... The biggest selling point was how incredible the trigger on it felt...

I've stopped carrying my 1911 andd switched to this gun, and am very happy with it... I just wish it had a little more thumping power like a .45 has..

My buddy brought out his 9mm Glock and we compared it with the CZ... While the Glock was lighter unloaded, once fully loaded, they were close to the same weight... Accuracy wise, the glock may have had a very slight edge over the CZ, but we figured that was mostly because of barrel length, but as a whole, we both were more impressed with the CZ than the Glock...


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## K-9 (Jul 27, 2007)

Okay, here goes, first the Ruger LC 9 is a fine compact 9, I looked at one the other day the only reason I didn't buy it is that it is not that much smaller than my Glock. It would serve you well as a compact defensive handgun. The Kel-tecs seem ok but are not of the same quality of the Ruger. Glocks are great but are thicker than the Ruger. The Sig 938 is a really nice super-compact 9mm, it is single action which some don't like and it is pricy but is top quality. I can't speak for the Kimber Solo because all I know about them is hearsay. The Springfield XDs are also nice and the single stack version is fairly thin. However, since you were looking at the PMR-30 the thickness is probably not an issue. If absolute minimum size is not important look at the Glock 19, the Sig P228, the Smith M&P all these are mid sized 9mm that are reliable.

As far as the 9mm bashing goes, as long as first tier defensive handgun ammo is used there is not any real difference between the big three semi-auto calibers 9x19, 40 S&W and 45 A.C.P. as far as performance, now if you try to skimp and use less effective ammo a difference starts to materialize. So practice with ball and carry the good stuff for defense and accept that you will have to shoot a couple hundred rounds of the good stuff to insure your handgun will function with it and the point of aim, point of impact is acceptable. I am not making this statement off the top of my head, several FBI and independent studies have shown this to be true based on research and more importantly real world shootings.

Next there seems to be a great deal of concern about over penetration of the round when the bad guy is shot. A lack of adequate penetration has resulted in the good guy getting killed in real world situations so a certain amount of penetration is required for the round to be effective. Next since only about 1 in 4 rounds fired in real world gunfights hits the intended target, the fear of over penetration becomes even less of an issue as even if the round does go all the way through the bad guy and strikes someone else, it will certainly have less retained energy that the round that completely missed the bad guy and strikes someone else and you are certainly less liable for a round that found its intended target and went all the way through that a round that was a miss and struck someone else.

There is a lot of information/wives tales that will get you killed, hurt, or put in prison. You must take the time to find out for yourself what the law is in the area that you live because there is so much variation from State to State concerning what legally constitutes self-defense.

Also it is usually less about the particular firearm than it is about the mind set and the ability of the person yielding the firearm that determines the out come of a bad situation. If you choose to carry a firearm, you must make the decision up front that you are willing to use that firearm which may result in the death of another human being because the bad guys are not scared of the gun, but their perception of the person holding the gun is what determines their next course of action unless of course they are drugged and then it is a free for all. 

Which ever you choose spend the time practicing to become proficient with it and I hope you never need it.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

K-9 said:


> Also it is usually less about the particular firearm than it is about the mind set and the ability of the person yielding the firearm that determines the out come of a bad situation. If you choose to carry a firearm, you must make the decision up front that you are willing to use that firearm which may result in the death of another human being because the bad guys are not scared of the gun, but their perception of the person holding the gun is what determines their next course of action unless of course they are drugged and then it is a free for all.
> 
> Which ever you choose spend the time practicing to become proficient with it and I hope you never need it.


These are the two things I keep stressing with my wife more than anything... She wants to CC, but I'm having a hard time letting her... 

She's not a bad shot, but she's just not REALLY REALLY comfortable and familiar with her gun... I keep trying to get her to just sit around the house when watching TV and doing dry fire excercises, but she won't.. When we go out shooting, she doesn't want do much more than point at the target and pull the trigger.. I keep stressing that she need to start working on seeking cover, and work on drawing her weapon... 

And most of all... She keeps saying that she would have no problem shooting a person if it was her life or theirs... but I'm not sure I believe her... I wish there was some way I could find that out for sure before I'd agree to her CC'ing..


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## Apocalypse Boy (May 4, 2012)

Chuck R. said:


> That "malarky" is called terminal ballistics. If youâd bothered to do some simple research, youâd have learned that ballistic gelatin is designed and tested to closely replicate human muscle tissue. Itâs a known, repeatable medium for testing, unlike a coyote, groundhog etc.
> 
> 
> The 12-14â penetration goal, isnât some arbitrary number, it takes into account non-ideal target presentations, having to penetrate limbs, oversized (fat) targets, and barriers. Itâs the depth required to hit the CNS/major organ/artery consistently and was developed by the FBI as a result of the Miami Shootout 27 years ago (this week as a matter of fact) Google it. This incident played a major role in the development of modern defense ammo. These tests are exactly the way most law enforcement agencies select their duty ammo.
> ...


Agreed. And furthermore, if you're more worried about POSSIBLY getting sued afterwards than you are the 200+ pounds of raging assailant trying to kill you then your future does not look very bright.


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## credee (Aug 17, 2013)

so you 'think' that flesh and blood is not flesh and blood, eh?  It changes, from critters to humans, in some way? I'll tell you what changes, and that is what happens in jello, if the goop is not held to the correct temperature and made to just the right standards.


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## credee (Aug 17, 2013)

i know because I've shot hundreds of flesh and blood animals with ccw loads and guns. Your 'research" is nothing of the kind. it's shots into jello and stories from liars and shaken up people, when eye-witness testimony is notoriously inaccurate, very nearly unacceptable in court. You're done here, all right.


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## credee (Aug 17, 2013)

The designers of the WWII British Commando dagger, who had seen more personal combat than all your "research" people put together, wanted a 7" blade to allow for "incomplete thrusts, the Nazi greatcoat, bad angles and pack harnesses". Laws about carrying pocketnives limit us to 3" blades, because such can reach the heart. but SOMEHOW, people are nowadays 14" thick. 99% of us aint street cops, and we'd better NOT shoot people thru cars, sideways and all that sort of stuff that cops get away with. I don't WANT a load that shoots thru more than 10" of flesh and blood, cause it's just a waste of what little power a handgun has, on the far side of the man. 

Most shots in combat miss the man entirely. Most hits are poor hits. so repeat hit speed is very important, and doing as much damage, creating as much shock and pain as possible, with each hit, is what we want. The 14" penetration standard is reached by having the jhp do what ball ammo does, which is 'not much".


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## credee (Aug 17, 2013)

here's something else to "chew on". 10% jello is only CLAIMED to be within 20% of the penetration resistance of hog MUSCLE. the only muscle in the chest cavity is the heart. the lungs are little more than sacks of air, the liver and spleen are so fragile that you can "squish' them in your hand like you can an orange. animals don't wear clothing. clothing debris often "clogs" the nose cavity of a jhp, and then it doesn't expand well, if at all. if a given load won't expand in critters (and believe me, most don't) then it won't expand in men, either.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

I don't dig bullets out of dead animals.

I dig bullets out of dead people.

Some points I'd like to make:

1. Modern hollow points work. They increase the size of wound cavities and enhance bleeding. 

2. Sometimes, a little penetration is a good thing. Bad guys watch movies, too, and they often make the mistake of taking cover behind two pieces of sheetrock on a 2x4 wall. I'd like to be able to shoot a wall and still nullify the threat.

3. Multiple hits are much better than single hits.

4. Most people are over-gunned. See #3. Three good .22's usually beat even a decent single .45, IME. IMO, a 9x19 or a .38 spl +P is about what most people can shoot well, without a good bit of practice.

5. If you really, really want to kill somebody quickly, ditch the handgun and start carrying a shotgun.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

credee said:


> here's something else to "chew on". 10% jello is only CLAIMED to be within 20% of the penetration resistance of hog MUSCLE. the only muscle in the chest cavity is the heart. the lungs are little more than sacks of air, the liver and spleen are so fragile that you can "squish' them in your hand like you can an orange. *animals don't wear clothing. clothing debris often "clogs" the nose cavity of a jhp, and then it doesn't expand well, if at all. if a given load won't expand in critters (and believe me, most don't) then it won't expand in men, either*.


This is just too easy, credee, you're taking all the fun out of this. I don't expect you to bother to read this, but maybe someone else will; FBI Ballistic Test Protocol:

http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

It's a run down of the 8 tests run on ammo, just for you, here's Test Event 2: 



> Heavy Clothing: The gelatin block is covered with four layers of clothing: one layer of cotton T-shirt material (48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material (80 threads per inch); a 10 ounce down comforter in a cambric shell cover (232 threads per inch); and one layer of 13 ounce cotton denim (50 threads per inch). This simulates typical cold weather wear. The block is shot at ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the block.


Hereâs a link to the Winchester LE ammo site that details their ammoâs performance against some of the FBI test protocol:

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

You guessed it, a couple of the categories are âHeavy Clothâ and âDenimâ. The âpluggedâ HP cavity problem was learned some time ago, and the decent ammunition manufactures worked up a solution, based on the FBI test protocol.

Hereâs yet another decent article on selecting SD ammo:

http://www.usacarry.com/5-tips-selecting-ammunition-concealed-carry/



> Check to see if the manufacturer you have selected has put their rounds through the FBI test protocols. Most manufactures make this information available to potential customers so they can see how their rounds have performed in these tests. The rule of thumb is for the bullet to reach a minimum of 12 inches of penetration of ballistic gelatin.


Note the author doesnât recommend taking the advice of some anonymous guy on the internet, or even shooting âcrittersâ, he recommends that whole scientific testing âscamâ that the FBI came up with. 

Did you find any SD Critter shooting test evals yet? Maybe even a documented case of SD ammo over-penetration causing collateral damage?

How about any credible source whatsoever that shares your opinion? 

Later,
Chuck

PS: It also makes it easier to track whatever point you're trying to make IF you can keep all of your rants in one reply, rather than 4 posts. Unless they've got some sort of "post count" competition going on and you're trying for a toaster or something, in that case carry on........


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## farmerj (Aug 20, 2011)

I make statements based on facts. Facts based on experience from things I have done.

I have shot a considerable number of pistols and calibers in my life. From .22 to .25 ACP to .380 to 45ACP and even a 454 casull with full power hunting loads.

I am/was (sorta semi-retired) a small arms and permit to carry instructor. Both civilian and national guard.

Go rent the guns you are going to consider shooting. Either that or find someone local to you that will let you shoot theirs.

I like and prefer the Beretta 92FS. It's the same as the M9 that was issued to us. I have also owned the Systema 1927 which is the same gun as the Colt 1911. I hated the platform. I have also owned the Glock 17. The angle of the grip was not as welcoming to me similar to the 1911's.

I have shot the .45, 9mm, .380, ,40 S&W and .22 LR at a ballistic vest that was taken out of service by a sheriff's deputy. We used several different types of ammo. FMJ, Self defense, "law enforcement" ammo and a gammut in between.

I personally shoot and carry 9mm +P 124 gr Golden sabre as a result of that experience. It penetrated and did the most damage out of ALL the ammo we shot that day to the vest. The way the bullet opened up, it tore the fabric and it was THE ONLY bullet we had to snip out of the vest with scissors. Of all the other types shot, if it was a non-bonded bullet, it separated the lead core from the copper jacket. The .380 didn't do any worse than the .45 ACP penetration wise.

I have big hands so a small sub-compact makes it difficult to shoot. Same thing with my wife. She can handle a smaller gun much more easier than I can but has difficulty with my Beretta 92FS. As a result, she got herself a .357 mag revolver. For practice, she mostly shoots .38 special target loads. But she will shoot full power .357 golden sabre loads out of it as well to know how it will handle.

We both feel the same way though. A 9mm subcompact semi-auto has too much snap in the recoil making it uncomfortable to shoot. A same size gun in a .380 is much more manageable and fun to shoot. IF we were to buy one, it would be in .380 instead of 9MM.

If you really want to get into a ----in' match on what's better. And since sectional density has been brought up, the one with the best is actually .357/.38. Second probably only to either a 10MM or more likely the .44 mag.

It still comes back to two things.....

What are YOU comfortable shooting and can actually hit things with....which directly relates back to...


What are you really willing to go practice and shoot on a consistent basis. Because if you don't like to shoot because you either can't hit with it or you don't like to practice, you may as well throw a rock at whatever you want to shoot.


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## Blindvisionary (Sep 26, 2013)

I have a Sig P290 and like it quite a bit(trigger pull takes a little getting used to). It was only $450.00 with an extra clip, holster and laser sight. My wife LOVES her Baretta Nano, it was right near the $400.00 mark.


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

I found this the other day. Seemed to be an interesting study.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/handgun-stopping-power

No matter how one reads his data, I do agree with his conclusion:



> Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important... No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!


TRellis


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