# Hair sheep as Club Lamb?



## HillRunner (Jun 28, 2010)

Why is it that I never see hair sheep as market lambs in my area? I don't know if its becuse there is hardly any around I just never see any at the fair? Do kid's use them around at everyone elses farms? Thanks everyone


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

They dont' show in my county and I'm going to let my DS's kids, show two in their county, where they will likely be the only Kats.

We don't see a lot of 4H sheep (or any sheep, around here) in general any more and showers are mostly suffolk, as they have been for many years.

Since our's are not registered, they will have to be shown as "cross bred", even though they are not.

I looking for it as an opportunity to promote the breed.


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## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

We are showing a suffolk this year as our first club lamb for DS, but just got a heard of Dorpers and next year we will let him show them. I hope we can see more of them but there just aren't that many hair sheep breeders in the area.


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## lambs.are.cute (Aug 15, 2010)

99.98% of show lambs here in the northwest are suffolk or mostly suffolk crosses. The other are hamps or textles. Although we do have two dorsets that come every year and do fairly well - never have won but have made it to the championship round once. I showed romney/suffolk crosses and never did well (was lucky to get more than a red ribbion) because they were too "fat" but they had such thick wool and the judge never reached through the wool. Won the carcus compitition though. The non suffolks were just as good as the suffolks there but they never did well because they were spottied or had a white face. 

It's fun to have a "strange" lamb but be warned that you probably won't place well in the market classes, they will likely have no idea what to do with them in the breed classes, and the other parents will be offended that you thought that you could compete with their lambs that are carefully bred - like any resposible shepard doesn't carefully mangage their flock, even if you aren't a suffolk breeder?


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## equinecpa (Mar 21, 2011)

We have just acquired some hair sheep -painted deserts. I don't think they'd do well in market classes but is there any reason they couldn't be shown in showmanship? We have two bottlefed ewes that would be a lot of fun toshow...


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

We have dorpers..and I like the idea of promoting the breed..

My son is considering showing a heifer as well..the breeds that I am interested in and that we raise are not the "popular" breeds in the local 4-h shows..I have no issue with that..

I to am kinda interested in the showmanship aspect..might be an option.


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## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

The dorpers will very likely be superior to suffolk in muscling and meat quality, it's just getting the judge to get over the shorter legs of the dorpers. I will be trying it next year and I bet we are the only dorpers. Maybe I should register my son to show all 10 (if we are lucky) and have other people show them so that it seems like their are more. LOL.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

Royal Valley, keep me updated on what you do?

Due to some factors, the heifer project may be put off a year..running out of time to find one and I wont "just buy one" because he needs one..that animal will go into my herd and I wont have anything but quality there..even if they are commercial animals..
but sheep (or possibly pig) projects are looking like possabilities...

I have both ewe lambs and a ram (soon to be wether) lamb that would work..although Im not sure if they offer breeding stock classes or just meat classes? have an enquiry into my county agent..Texas 4-h is a whole different ballgame then NJ 4-h where I grew up!


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## beoircaile (May 2, 2006)

Odds are if they are competing with "club lambs" they will be placed at the bottom of the line for short stature, short loin length, etc. Club lambs are typically Suffolk, Hamp or Dorset crosses.

Search the archives for club lamb and you'll come up with a lot of reasons why other breeds are not favored for that competition.

That said- good for you and your kids will learn a lot. We often had buyers at a higher price for our smaller, more compact sheep than those long legged "lambs" the other kids had. Ethnic markets tend to favor the smaller sheep (less leg waste).


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## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

I think most county fairs will have a Breeding class that is separate from the Market classes. Pigs, lambs or goats are all great smaller animals to start with. Market goats are really huge here right now. 

I'm hopeful that our breed will be accepted well, but I am an eternal optimist and always have a glass that is half full.


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## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

Oh--And for the showmanship rounds, it's not about the animal breed/quality/etc it's about how well your kidlet knows their animal and how they present themselves to the judge. They should know info about what they feed them, how much they weigh, what they like/dislike about their animal, etc.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

I just talked with the 4-h leader..and yep, breeding class and market class..

I am checking on qualifications for the market class..show is in Jan-Feb timeframe..lamb born 2 weeks ago..leader feels Im OK, but I want to be sure. Lamb is my ram's first..so it would be neat to see my son exhibit him.

as for the ewes..I was looking at my lambs last night..friendliest is definantly the coming year old ewe..shes a dorper/Kat..the three younger dorpers are alittle more skittish..best looking one is the jumpiest of them all! 

in breeding classes, are they judged to their "Breed standard" or just the judge's standard?


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## lambs.are.cute (Aug 15, 2010)

Fair is a great for skiddish sheep. They tend to start loving you and become a lot more friendly. Had one that I bought wild from a flock of 200 in May and threw her out on pasture untill August when I took her to fair. We had to chase her down and corner her with three people to capture her. By the end of fair she was comming to me and would let me touch her no problem. I usually tamed my sheep but I couldn't catch her so.......

It is suppost to be breed standard but really it is how well the judge can remember the breed standard - it he/she knew it in the first place. When I took my romney ewe lamb and my merino cross ewe lamb he told me that they were bad quality sheep because they didn't show the proper growthyness. When asked why he said this he said, their legs are too short they should have larger frames, and should weight more. When told that they were not suffolks he said yep they have white faces.............. Didn't even touch them to feel the quality of wool which both breed standards measure. Granted my romney ewe has really really short legs - which means she high centers on snow drifts. 

I personally would bring the breed standard printed from the breed webpage with me so that if the judge didn't know the breed standard he could at least work off the worksheet.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

Im searching..says dorper shows with 2 inches of hair..but then other sources say slick..thoughts from folks who have showed their dorper ewes at 4-h fair?

Also..when showing sheep, no halters are used, at least what I am seeing?


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## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

I would think if you are showing at the end of summer at all, it would be difficult to have 2" of hair that looks decent, as they shed themselves. I think the slick gives more emphasis on their muscling and confirmation. But I have never shown them. It does look like no halters from the pics I have seen but I'm not sure what is typical at our county fair. 
Right now, we successfully bought the most skittish, jumpiest lamb for our suffolk. He's gonna be a handful...but hopefully worth it!


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

LOL RoyalValley..the one Id like my son to use is also the most skittish, as I said above..the other two would work..but Id prefer him use Matilda.

Our show is Jan-Feb timeframe..not summer..so they will have hair...just not sure of proper protocol with a dorper that time of year..


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## lambs.are.cute (Aug 15, 2010)

yes you will not have halters. Even for the breeding stock you won't usually use halters.


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## equinecpa (Mar 21, 2011)

In showmanship class..are hair sheep shown differently than say a market lamb ie does a child show the lamb so as to best show to its breed standard? I know all about horse and dog showmanship...but sheep stuff is all new to me!


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

spinandslide said:


> I just talked with the 4-h leader..and yep, breeding class and market class..
> 
> I am checking on qualifications for the market class..show is in Jan-Feb timeframe..lamb born 2 weeks ago..leader feels Im OK, but I want to be sure. Lamb is my ram's first..so it would be neat to see my son exhibit him.
> 
> ...


If you have a crossbred ewe she will be shown in the crossbred classes against "show" bred ewes so don't have high expectations for her placement.

Theoretically the ewes are shown against a standard but that rarely if ever happens in county fairs. The judges simply don't have a clue about the standards of the breeds, most are just "show jocks" that pick on movement and muscle regardless of what the breed calls for.

Jim


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

thank you for the info Lazy J.

I personally could give a hoot to have the next big stock show winner..Ive found alot of the successful (big time) animals do very poorly when put back into the herd..thus why I dont care to do the "big" shows..just our small, local county show is good enough for me.
My ram actually is a clubbie reject..his whole family are big time winners..but he came out to "squatty" for his breeder's taste..so why he sold him to me..he works perfectly for my primary terminal operation. 

From what I am told..in our county..the ewes are shown by age and then by breed..if warranted..similar to heifers..3 makes a breed. Am told other familes in the area have shown dorpers in the past..but waiting on clarification of that from extension agent...

As I said..this is about teaching my son the working skematics of caring for a productive animal that fits our program. my cattle are brangus..not the typical club calf....Im used to being the oddball. LOL

and we will do showmanship as well..

equine cpa-from what Ive read..sheep showmanship is based on the handerl;s t/o of the animal and their knowledge of the breed standard, facts,ect.

I watched a dairy showmanship class once and the judge asked each child their animal's name, their favorite thing about the animal and one holstein related question...the questions got tougher the older the child was. 


BTW-you out of gainesville? 

Sarah (with Fletcher and Kate, the Border collies)


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## lambs.are.cute (Aug 15, 2010)

Here in 4h you show to the local 4H standards. In open class you are supost to show to breed standards but with our fair being in August and 100+ temps showing a wool sheep in a full fleece is plain crazyness so nobody does it. 

spinandslide is your 4h fitting and showing divided up into junior, intermediete and senior?


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

that is a good question..I know the county south of us is divided into junior and senior..not sure about our county though..I would imagine we have jr. and sr. though..just on a hunch.


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## houndlover (Feb 20, 2009)

Take a hair sheep and see how it does. A "club lamb" is a type, not a breed. A market lamb is any lamb entered in the market (or auction) class. In general, a club lamb is a cross between large blackfaced breeds, hampshires, shropshires, or suffolks, or purebreds of those breeds. The reason they are favored in market classes is the rate of gain, or how much weight the animal puts on per pound of feed. Hair sheep typically mature slower. In our county, a market lamb can not be more than 28 weeks old and must weigh a minimum of 105lbs. At this age, few hair breeds will make weight. Our county is starting a new market class for animals between 90 and 105 lbs. I am having one of my younger 4H kids raise a dorper. At 20 weeks, he's almost the same size as some of my 18 week old suffolk crosses, but he's also being fed high protein lamb grower. I doubt my young 4Her will take champion, but I'm betting the lamb competes well. I will let you all know! I am falling in love with these dorpers, much calmer than my big stupid hamps and suffolks.


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## houndlover (Feb 20, 2009)

I have to take exception that 4H judges aren't "good" judges. We hire well known livestock judges with backgrounds from large livestock show circuits. Every state is different, there are no national 4H standards, although we are headed that way. Within Oregon, this is a typical class schedule in any livestock group. Showmanship, sometimes referred to as fit and show, is a class broken into age groups (junior, int, senior), where the exhibitor is judged on how well they have fit (cleaned up) their animal, how well they handle their animal, and their general knowledge of the project. A majority of our sheep will be market animals and therefore slick sheared, although a minority of kids will use another animal for their showmanship, if they do, their animal must be "fit" to breed standards, if it's a wool breed, it must be shown in wool, shaped to breed standard. Exception - if a kid uses a wool breed (example - romney) as their market animal, it is slick sheared. Market animals are tagged at a special weigh in sometime in May. The animal is moved through a series of movements and the kids are asked questions about anything in the 4H sheep book PLUS some breed standard questions, or in the case of market animals, questions about meat cuts. A kid has to show in the showmanship class in order to show any animals in breed classes. Breed classes are shown by breeds, ewes only, and kids of all ages show together. No questions, just the judge placing the animals. Market classes are shown by light, heavy, and non auction classes, all ages together. Market animals must get a red or better to go to auction. Champion and reserve get to enter the auction pen first, however, they don't always get the most money!


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

I haven't read this entire thread so my reply may be what someone has already mentioned. 

My kids both show hair sheep at our county fair and Spring Livestock show. They show them in the market and breeding classes. There's just barely enough participation in our area with hairsheep to have the minimum number or critters to form a class. (at least three of same breed and type.)

They have done really well with their Kat/Dorper crosses wethers for the past two years. However, when they get put in the Grand Drive for the judge to choose a supreme winner they always go to the end of the line against the wool sheep. 

However, every year our local county has a carcass contest. For the past two years a hairsheep has won the carcass contest. The wool sheep are far behind. They only take 10 animals in the contest and for the past two years there's been three hairsheep chosen for the contest. The hairsheep have placed 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in the contest with the wool sheep taking up the last seven spots.


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## lambs.are.cute (Aug 15, 2010)

most 4H judges are good judges but the year I took breeding stock the judge owned a suffolk ranch (1,000+ head of breeding stock). He showed nationally, etc. There were two problems with this: he wanted to lambs in the 180 range while the weight limit was 150 (which nobody told him) and so he wanted to give all red ribbions; he also knew a lot about suffolks but knew nothing about any other breed, so out of the breeding stock there (suffolk, dorsets, romney, merino cross) who do you think took supreme ewe (and the only grand ribbion of the classes). The suffolk had some major faults and shouldn't have won the dorsets should have - they were beautiful - but he favored everything suffolk.


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## lambs.are.cute (Aug 15, 2010)

i'll add that for the past few years the winner of our carcus contests have been the dorset, romney, merino, and textle crosses. These white face crosses usually weight less live weight than the suffolks but have the same carcus weight and a higher usuable %. We are just starting to get hair sheep here locally so I am excited to see how they do against the suffolks.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

I always thought the clubbies were favored based on their "conformation type"..similar with cattle..along with their gains obviously..

We are going to do it..Im excited..just not sure about this no halter thing....but we will work on it. Waiting to get validation dates on them..but Im hoping he will show both a market lamb (if age is OK..lamb was just born 2 weeks ago..4-h leader said it would be fine..but I want to make sure) and then one of the ewes..

He is kinda "eh" about it..he wanted to show a heifer..told him to get his feet wet this year with sheep..and then do a heifer next year.

Houndlover..how is a hair sheep shown..in the winter? Do they clip them or not?


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## houndlover (Feb 20, 2009)

The two dorpers I have still have hair, but appear to be shedding from the rear forward. We will be slick shearing the wether because that's required, but we will show the ewe natural, in whatever condition her fleece (is that the right term?) come mid July. I assume she'll be shed out by then. It pulls out but I haven't really messed with it, sort of learning as I go. She has a sort of "springy" coat underneath the shed. It's soft, sort of like my cocker spaniel after he's groomed. We will wash her and toss her in the ring and let the judge tell us what we did wrong. The breed standard says to show them "natural", so I assume they aren't trimmed, just washed.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

Just my opinion here............but if you sow the ewe in her natural coat condition you're gonna get the pants beat off of ya in the show ring. All the others will be shorn unless rules show otherwise. Once again, just my opinion.


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## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

I think they *might* trim the ewes up. Not slick sheared, but make them all nice and even looking, trim the bellies a little closer and in between their legs and maybe a little on their necks and blend it into the body. This is what they do for Boer does that are showing not as market animals. 

That's what the mega-shower lady next door does with her Boers anyway. She wins a lot and to buy one of her does....like $1000. yes, $1000.


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## houndlover (Feb 20, 2009)

Why would we get "the pants beat off us"? The only class that requires a complete shear is the market class. The ewe will be in the breed class, where the breed standard is "natural". Market animals are not shown in breed classes in our county.


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

houndlover said:


> The two dorpers I have still have hair, but appear to be shedding from the rear forward. We will be slick shearing the wether because that's required, but we will show the ewe natural, in whatever condition her fleece (is that the right term?) come mid July. I assume she'll be shed out by then. It pulls out but I haven't really messed with it, sort of learning as I go. She has a sort of "springy" coat underneath the shed. It's soft, sort of like my cocker spaniel after he's groomed. We will wash her and toss her in the ring and let the judge tell us what we did wrong. The breed standard says to show them "natural", so I assume they aren't trimmed, just washed.


Thanks Houndlover..Depending on what their coats look like..we may just go natural..my ram had a beautiful coat in the spring and the winter..not sure what the lambs will look like come January though.

Just thought of something..

right now, lambs are in with my older ewe and ram..they are 3 months old..I guess I need to seperate the one he'll show at the end of the summer..to keep her from being bred? I am still on the fence about leaving the other lambies in with the ram too..I have heard its OK at 6 months to breed them..and others are adamant they wait til 8 months..:hrm:


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## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

We will not be breeding our Dorpers until Sept/Oct. They are December babies so that'll make them 9-10 months old. But that puts them on the same schedule for birthing with our goats, which is what we'd like. I think waiting until closer to 8 months would be our choice if we didn't have goats. We've had ours separated from the ram since 3 months old.


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## beoircaile (May 2, 2006)

> lambs in the 180 range


Yeah- see- my problem is 180 ISN'T a lamb.... and that's the "lamb" that gets people turned off to lamb meat.

We've had more buyers for <150# than anything bigger and at a premium. Ask any ethnic group what size they want and they'll more than likely say the smaller animal. The only group that wants the larger carcass is the "meat industry" because it's easier to process.

My daughter took best carcass with a lamb <130 and it beat out all the big >175# lambs.


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## lambs.are.cute (Aug 15, 2010)

Oh I totally agree. Plus most of those extra pounds are in bones so that the usuable carcus is the same as a lamb that weighs 20-30 lbs less. People around here are totally convinced that bigger is better and are breeding for sheep who are bigger than mini ponies.


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