# Off Grid Power without Batteries



## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

With micro hydro power it is possible to build a system that does not require batteries, just a way to dump any excess load. 

In doing some additional research today (after spotting a very promising property for sale ) on the topic I came across a micro-hydro turbine system developed by Joe Holden. For those that don't know he is a war hero and inventor who developed and stabilized the first &#8220;afterburner&#8221; in jet airplanes still used today in jets, created the first CV joint still used as a standard in all front-wheel drive vehicles today and was responsible for developing the first &#8220;thrust tubes&#8221; which are now standard on most supersonic jets. In other words the man is a BRAIN when it comes to mechanical things.



> The Holden HP Turbine is a highly unique innovative turbine designed to generate hydro power using not only river and lake water as standard hydro turbines do, but also sewage water, salt water and waste run-off water as well as, with specific modifications, compressed air and steam.


That's all well and good, but what really caught my eye was this:



> Even more important, the Holden HP Turbine is *100% mechanical *which means, if there are high intensity solar flares or there is any type of disruption to the electronic grid, there are *no electronics to break down*. What this means to you is undisturbed and constant energy output, thus redefining &#8220;100% mechanical systems&#8221;.


So for those that are wanting to prep for an EMP type event, this just might be something worth considering. 

You can read more about it here.

And this is a video of Joe Holden explaining the details about his invention.
http://www.planetcpr.org/index.html

Oh yeah and the company that bought the rights to Holden's invention is also working to bring a '100% Mechanical Energy Storage, "Battery - Less" Battery' to the market.

And to completely derail my own thread - poke around over there at Planet CPR, some really interesting stuff. (like the stuff in the health section for relieving arthritis pain - something that plagues me daily.)


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Even more important, the Holden HP Turbine is 100% mechanical which means, if there are high intensity solar flares or there is any type of disruption to the electronic grid, there are no electronics to break down. What this means to you is undisturbed and constant energy output, thus redefining &#8220;100% mechanical systems&#8221;.


It won't help that your power plant survives an EMP if the *equipment you are powering *can't


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It won't help that your power plant survives an EMP if the *equipment you are powering *can't


Plenty of stuff can survive an EMP.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It won't help that your power plant survives an EMP if the *equipment you are powering *can't


Well just get some equipment that can. :thumb:


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

That url did not work for me!

The price is probably a strong deterrant anyway!


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

From the website:

*Full disclosure of this amazing combination of renewable technologies which allows for highly efficient energy storage without dependence on lithium or cadmium based batteries can not be made in this business plan.*

Then when you click on "Product Line", or "Buy Products", all you get is "we make 500 different products in 20 different product lines".....with no detail about any of them, nor a price, nor where to buy any of them.

But their "Investor Relations" section works just fine.

Pardon me, but I'm always skeptical when that part works ( invest in us ), but a website is totally lacking in details on ANY product.

IF it walks, talks and sounds like hype, it probably is.

Cheap energy storage is the Holy Grail of alternative energy. If they've solved it, great. But given the ease of running a scam on the internet, I think I'll reserve judgment until it's ON THE SHELF WITH A PRICE AND SPECS.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I must have missed something. Why do we not like batteries?

There are times when power is generated in excess and times when it isn't. Same as food. In that case, batteries could be considered the same as your "pantry", storing excess for the lean times.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Batteries aren't cheap and must be replaced every so often. They also have efficiency losses. Having them is great, but not needing them would be even better.


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## Owldancer (Jun 24, 2010)

Well now I went to look at the site. TNAndy you are correct, then went a little further and looked at the Holden HP (Hydro Power) Turbine, it shows one heck of a system that looks way over the top in expense for a simple homesteader. But for the micro power here is a price list
http://www.microhydropower.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/ESD-hydro-price-list-2011.pdf


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

That's the "Holy Grail" part.....a cheap, efficient means of storing energy until you need it. 

Batteries AIN'T it on either count.

For Planet CPR to have come up with a mechanical means of storing energy would mean something along the lines of pumping water up to a higher storage facility and then letting it run back downhill thru a water turbine,

OR using compressed air, then releasing it later to turn a turbine,

Or something along those lines......none of which is cheap on small scale.

To claim you have it is one thing.....to show you do ( and at what price ) is quite another.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Owldancer said:


> Well now I went to look at the site. TNAndy you are correct, then went a little further and looked at the Holden HP (Hydro Power) Turbine, it shows one heck of a system that looks way over the top in expense for a simple homesteader. But for the micro power here is a price list
> http://www.microhydropower.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/ESD-hydro-price-list-2011.pdf


Microhydro is a great way to go IF you have the resource to run it. 

Like wind, it takes a whole lot more resource (flowing water) than most folks think, and unlike wind/solar, when you get into the amount needed, you get into a permit problem most places in the US, because now you're diverting water from it's natural course of flow. 

It can be done, but it sure ain't like the old days where you built a grist mill, blocked up a stream for a dam, and ran yourself a flume down to the water wheel. Today, you'd have 1/2 dozen different govt agencies on your backside before you got the first drop of water.

SO, the market for MH is probably even smaller than wind.

I had a neighbor up the road with a little wet weather spring that dropped maybe 50' elevation, and maybe would fill a 1" line in the wettest part of the year ( and be near dry in the summer/fall )...he kept telling me how he was gonna set up an MH system.....well, that was years ago, and it ain't there yet.....meantime, my solar has generated over 10,000kw/hrs in the last 3 years.


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## Owldancer (Jun 24, 2010)

TNAndy, was not saying if it was a workable solution for everyone just where some prices were. 

Wish I could have solar power in my area but sure our village has rules against it. And have no place to place a complete system.


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## DavisHillFarm (Sep 12, 2008)

Well the way I see it, pretty much everything will be toast anyways if/when an EMP event happens. Yes I have some "stuff" in a Faraday type cage, but there ain't no way I'm going to get everything in it...I agree with Ernie, batteries is the way to go for now. We have a good stock of regular and rechargeable batteries and a solar battery charger. All of our "stuff" runs on AA size batteries, and one item AAA.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Owldancer said:


> TNAndy, was not saying if it was a workable solution for everyone just where some prices were.


Yeah...I understand.....and I was merely commenting that very few are in the position to use MH here in the US.

Hard to believe a place would restrict solar, but that's yet another reason NOT to live in the Peoples Republic of IL.


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## Owldancer (Jun 24, 2010)

Now I would love to move out but my wife would never consider it. So I try to get up to WI whenever I can.
Not a lot better but enough.


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Poked around some more on the website - this is still in development. There will be 11 units available to start with and those are priced at $110k and are designed to support 20-30 homes. Going to have to wait a while longer for smaller units. 

Also this process, and other small systems do NOT require any damming and I know that with some of the other new systems some pretty small streams will work just fine. 

Batteries are not sustainable - in a SHTF scenario the odds of getting replacements when what you have wears out are slim and none. So a system without them is preferred. Plus the extra "burn off" is most likely to occur in the winter months when the water is flowing faster - and that is when heat/light in a green house could use it. Check out the set up the guy that owns Umpqua Survival has.

I know MH isn't for everyone, but if you have even a small creek on your property you might be surprised at what works.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Wags said:


> Batteries are not sustainable - in a SHTF scenario the odds of getting replacements when what you have wears out are slim and none. So a system without them is preferred.


It's called "doing without". 

If your idea of "living offgrid" is to recreate the grid on a small scale, you're going to be unpleasantly surprised when the Home Depot shuts down and the internet goes dark.

Solar and batteries are a stop-gap method. You use them to transition and when they go, they go and you continue to live.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> IF it walks, talks and sounds like hype, it probably is.





> *Joe Holden*. For those that don't know he is a war hero and inventor who developed and stabilized the first &#8220;afterburner&#8221; in jet airplanes still used today in jets, *created the first CV joint still used as a standard in all front-wheel drive vehicles today *and was responsible for developing the first &#8220;thrust tubes&#8221; which are now standard on most supersonic jets. In other words the man is a BRAIN when it comes to mechanical things


If you Google "CV Joints" you'll find no mention of his name.

If you Google his name + CV Joints, you get a bunch of pages trying to* sell *you his products


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Ernie said:


> It's called "doing without".
> 
> If your idea of "living offgrid" is to recreate the grid on a small scale, you're going to be unpleasantly surprised when the Home Depot shuts down and the internet goes dark.
> 
> Solar and batteries are a stop-gap method. You use them to transition and when they go, they go and you continue to live.


Why are solar & batteries better than a sustainable system? 

Water & wind power have been in use for hundreds of years, how far back in the stone age do you think people need to go?


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Ernie said:


> It's called "doing without".
> 
> If your idea of "living offgrid" is to recreate the grid on a small scale, you're going to be unpleasantly surprised when the Home Depot shuts down and the internet goes dark.
> 
> Solar and batteries are a stop-gap method. You use them to transition and when they go, they go and you continue to live.


It's called "different strokes for different folks." Not everyone who has an off grid setup will be unpleasantly surprised by anything. In fact, some will probably be pleasantly satisfied that their preparations work as planned. Batteries may be a stop-gap for some, but this thread is about a potential way to go off grid WITHOUT batteries. It may not be very feasible for most people at this point, but that won't necessarily always be the situation. Even now it is certainly possible for someone with enough money to set up a sustainable electrical system and stock up enough parts to last 100 years. Not everyone has to live by the philosophy of using alternative energy only as a stop-gap to transition to using no electricity.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Edison batteries are good for 40-50 years....but dang expensive on the front end.

Wags: What the technology behind this non battery based storage system.....I haven't seen that yet. As I said, the only thing I see on the website is "we can't tell you how it works".


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

I haven't seen it either Andy, I just mentioned it in passing. I was much more interested in the hydro system. 

As I stated in the OP any hydro system can be set up without batteries, this one just claimed to be much more efficient at creating energy from low flow, low head applications. I didn't realize just how new it actually was. They have only had a prototype in place for a couple of months now.

Check out this video - the creek he is using is pretty small. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Iq0b2jwyw[/ame]


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

well if I where siting on a stream, there would be no need for batteries.

Water battery would be another option,if I was not.

Batteries are not as inexpensive as you would think. Just a lower up front buy in price.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Micro hydro is great... but I could never see myself going only hydro... I'd rather have solar and wind And batteries in my perfect system. Droughts would send you back into the darkness quickly.

I've got the head required here, and for a few winter months, it'd work great... but not this year... my lake is 6.5' low.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Texican....how many GPM do you figure you have when you do have flow ?

Looking into hydro, I was a little surprised at the flow/head requirement for even 400 watts, continuous. Something like 60 feet of head and 100 gpm available.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I built my spillway up about an extra 18", to store 'extra' water late in the spring, when we get our most rain, to try and store as much as possible for the droughty part of summer. I can adjust how much flows out, down to a trickle, up to hundreds or thousands of gpm (20' wide x 12" flow = lots of water ~150gp second). I've got 30' of head. Figure, I could get a 2" pipe, dropped over the dam, keep the spillway 'up' as high as possible, and get at least a month of flow out of that extra foot and half of excess water. Lake is around 8 acres, which at 18" would be ~3.6 million gallons. I don't have the mental capacity early in the morning to calculate the flow pressure/volume through a 1" or 2" pipe. In a normal year, the lake would be full 'right now', and stay full till May, with water slowly going over the spillway....


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I have one of the first Water Babies, bought it at a junk store years ago for $25.00, it only has 1 nozzle. I have a spring for irrigation, domestic and generation. The generator sits right beside the cabin, 24 volt, wired into 4 12 volt batteries, After the batteries are charged it runs a heating coil and fan in the cabin in the winter, it runs a pump in the greenhouse the rest of the year. I also have 2 small 12 volt solar systems, 1 is wired to these same batteries for use at the cabin. The other is used at the greenhouse. The water used for generation feeds a man made stream feeding my fish pond. The power is used as 12 volt DC throughout the cabin, small appliances, several battery chargers and LED lights. People are amazed at how much can be done with such a small amount of 12 volt power....James

http://www.altestore.com/store/Alte...esign-The-Water-Baby-Generator-2-Nozzle/p496/


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