# Breeding for teat size - hand vs machine milking



## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

I'm trying to plan the breeding to make my next cow for hand milking and was hoping to get teats that weren't too long or too short. I was looking at some Jerseys in a dairy and some teats looked only an inch long. Is that the norm for machine milking?

Anyway, I've been conversing with another fellow with small jersey bulls, but in a photo of a daughter of one of his bulls, the teats look really short. I was asking him about that, and here's his reply below. So, is teat size not something you can control? I know in beef cows you cull for too big. I assume there's a scoring system for dairy bulls which would include teat size. I was able to hand milk my current cow from the first lactation, and don't really want to wait a few years til the teats get longer.



> Meme is sired by Orlando and her teats are easily miked with a machine! They were not very long on her first lactation but her Mother Princess Grace LC and Grand Mother Princess Grace Ann's teats are now long enough that they could be hand milked but that comes with age! Like I said (Very hard) to Breed for TEAT Size! check out my Semen For Sale page 3 different bulls on there! Reba who is a half sister to Orlando has teats long enough to hand milk but then again she is half standard and half mini and she is 5 years old! In my 34 years of dealing with cattle this is the first time I have ever had this kind of a request! There is NO WAY AnyONE can Guarantee TEAT SIZE! NO WAY!


I wasn't expecting a guarantee, but maybe increasing the probabilities.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

You can sellect for anything. Teat size now is shorter than it was prior to the invention of mechanical milkers. From what I've read, udder and teat location/shape are moderately heritable, so I would guess that teat length is also. 

That said, you can't guarrentee an offsprings teat size, and you're not likely to make a change in one generation. But, if you pick a momma with longer teats, or a bull who's momma had longer teats, the offspring should be more likely to have longer teats. If you keep sellecting the ones with longe teats to breed, and breed them to other individuals with longer teats, over a couple of generations, the teat size average should increase.

Edit:
Found an article that confirms this - http://jds.fass.org/cgi/reprint/68/10/2670.pdf
Says "Heritabilities of udder depth and teat size have been moderate to high (8, 13, 30, 31)." The numbers are the references it sites.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

I'd like to breed for teat length as well. So far, other than some older cows that were dairy culls for one reason or another, I've only had itsy,bitsy teats on all of my jerseys born in the last ten years or so. It's got to be a result of selecting for teat length several generations ago at the invent of machines. 

I've seen some MS heifers that tend to have longer teats, but maybe it's just the particular herd I was looking at. Grandmas handmilkers always appeared to have good handles. The ones I'm milking only require thumb and forefinger to milk. Takes a long time to remove two gallons a few drops at a time!


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

You need to be VERY careful on single trait selection. The teat length may very well be tied to other udder and milking traits. If a trait is selected for there are other things that come along with it. This could be the reason for small teats being common.


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

I'm pretty sure I know the herd you are looking at to breed your cow to. MiniJersey?
With MiniJerseys there are so few daughters of any bull around that they cannot even begin to determine what the bull will due with teat length.

The standard AI Jersey sires have a section on their proof for what the bull will tend to do to teat length. There are still bulls throwing a longer teat length, but many throw a shorter length. Too long of a teat in a machine milking set up and you have the teat end blocking the bottom of the inflation. It is also possible to have too short of a teat length. The trend has been towards shorter teats. Also keep in mind a longer teat is more easily stepped on in a confinement set up, by eiother the cow herself or her neighbor. So a shorter teat is more protected in that regards as well.
With an increase in lactation a cow's teats will normally lengthen. They will also lengthen with machine milking and hand milking, but it takes time.
As important as teat length is to hand milking, so is orifice size in my opinion. With the goats I hate tiny orifices, even if the doe's teats are good gripping size. It takes too long. I couldn't imagine it on a cow who will produce 4X or more milk in the same milking!
Our cows have varying teat lengths. The 10 year old has a perfect hand milking udder in my mind. Her sire was a herd bull from our herd. His other daughters were similar. On the other end of the spectrum we have a first calf heifer you had to hold the inflations on her short teats until there was enough milk out of the udder the inflations could suction on. When breeding her one of our main focuses is longer teat length.
Focusing on one trait can lead to problems, but it doesn't have to.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

I've been handmilking for many years and consider myself to be quite a hand at it (no pun intended) and have yet to get 2 gallons out of one of my jerseys in less than 20 minutes. That's too long for me. I can sit on a stool and watch the grass grow as it comes out three drops at a time. She lets down just fine. It's just that her teats at full engorgement are only about 1-1/4" long and about as big around as my thumb. Kinda hard to get much of a grip. And as for stripping out, that's hard to get done. (btw, my large hand size doesn't help much either. I wear an XL leather work glove and the Lord has blessed me with some rather large paws!)

On a good note, she'll let any calf on the place nurse so she's my last choice for handmilking. I only use her if my home milk sales are in a pinch to meet my orders. It's a sad thing though. This little girl puts more cream on top of the jar than any cow I've ever seen. 

When I'm milking enough cows to justify the cleaning time of my bucket milker she lines up with the rest of the girls and waits her turn patiently. Takes no time at all to strip her out with vacuum.


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

I have goats I milk as short time as possible for various reasons. Be it teat structure, attitude, or in the case of Liliana, she is just plain nuts. Even after 7 lactations.
I milk the goats I enjoy milking. The goats I don't enjoy I milk as long as it takes for their kid(s) to handle them alone!
When I sell milking does I am just as picky, too.


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## smit747 (Apr 9, 2006)

[I've been handmilking for many years and consider myself to be quite a hand at it (no pun intended) and have yet to get 2 gallons out of one of my jerseys in less than 20 minutes. ]
I have mini Jerseys that I milk twice a day I have one that is producing 2 and a 1/2 gallons per milking she milks out in about 12 minutes, have a first calf heifer milking about 2 gallons per milking she milksout in about 15 minutes both has handles long enough to hand milk also. I'm milking 4 head each day it only takes me about and hour to milk and do the cleanup of palor and equipment, have ben doing this about 10 years now, this spring I will have about 7 milking when they all get done calving
______________________
Ervin


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

I believe he is referring to just one cow in particular that he can't get two gallons out of in less than 20 minutes. Because she has short teats (and I would assume small orifices from the sounds of it).


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## Farm 36 (Mar 21, 2009)

Teat size is very changable but if you are use AI from todays bulls you will hope to find tighty placed udders and little teats.Bull mothers need to meet a certain critera in production and classifacation. To have a VG or EX cow she must have a tight and neatly placed udder with correct teat size and placement .Milking time on a cow is determined by the inflation and vacume and pulsation . In a modern dairy a cow needs to give 60 or 70 lb in less than 5 min or she slows the parlor down .


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

Thanks for the replies. From your article ArmyDoc, it appears alot of research has gone into teat size and shape.

Perhaps it's hard to get the perfect cow, but I sure don't want to strip with thumb and forefinger.

Yes this bull is a minijersey. My latest scheme is to breed red angus heifer to minijersey bull to get a red smaller dual purpose animal. Maybe I should give up the small and cross with standard jersey bull that has some numbers on teat length.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

I`m with some of the rest of them, you can breed for teat length, but you may not get it done the first time. I to hate hand milking short teat cows, that is why I use a milker. I don`t care if I have one cow to milk, I will wash a milker out. Thanks Marc.


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

What is the teat length on the dam of the red angus heifer like? They inherit from their dam side just as they do from the sire. Which is one reason you look at a sire's dam to get an idea of what he will throw in his daughters.
You can go MiniJersey but ask for pictures and experience with freshened daughters. Just don't expect a lot of information or any type of garantee of what he will do.

We hand milked a first calf Jersey heifer we have for sale last night. To see how she tolerated it and to see how the teats were. Just as we suspected by looking at her, the front teats were wonderful for hand milking. The back teats, not as much of a handful but easily milked. Her sire was a herd bull we had collected in 1982. Beautiful heifer. Stood rock solid and didn't worry about what we were doing. Even when I went over and got down there and started milking. I hadn't touched her udder once since freshening before that. OUr cows aren't all short teated. Haven't all been short teated either. Sandy's teats were incredibly long and we tried to keep a son out of her to breed to. This was with modern day breeding, too. Well, okay, we lost her at 8 years old two years ago, so maybe not taht modern...lol She was a Topkick daughter by a Londonderry daughter. Well...heh, yeah, I guess it was probably Londonderry taht did it. Quaff's paternal uncle (we kept two herd bulls out of one cow, Londonderry and Bountiful).


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

Breeding for teat size, as in breeding for any trait, is a long process, involving culling those less desireable offspring and rebreeding the desireable ones. It can take many years to firmly establish a trait.

Teat length is a trait that others have already selected for. Your best bet is to search out and buy those that already meet your standards. Pay a couple of bucks more and save years.

Remember, too, that you can't breed for a trait that they don't already have, so even to breed for teat length, you'd have to start with a cow that had the right length teats and a bull that descended from a cow that did. So just be selective in buying and be happy.

Genebo
Paradise Farm


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## DJ in WA (Jan 28, 2005)

dosthouhavemilk said:


> What is the teat length on the dam of the red angus heifer like? They inherit from their dam side just as they do from the sire. Which is one reason you look at a sire's dam to get an idea of what he will throw in his daughters.
> You can go MiniJersey but ask for pictures and experience with freshened daughters. Just don't expect a lot of information or any type of garantee of what he will do.


I am just scheming, so don't yet have the heifer, but plan to get one from a good-uddered cow. I realize that if you breed a short-teated to long-teated, you can end up with short, long, or somewhere in between. Would prefer to avoid the extremes.




genebo said:


> Breeding for teat size, as in breeding for any trait, is a long process, involving culling those less desireable offspring and rebreeding the desireable ones. It can take many years to firmly establish a trait.
> 
> Teat length is a trait that others have already selected for. Your best bet is to search out and buy those that already meet your standards. Pay a couple of bucks more and save years.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm trying to be selective, but apparently some breeders are offended by me asking questions.


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

Don't let that stop you from asking questions.

I keep good stock. I'm selective when I buy. I feel that the more questions you ask, the more you'll want one of mine. A breeder that is offended by questions may not want you to know the answers.

Be patient. Improve your pastures or fencing or barn while you're looking. All good things come to those who wait. Somebody famous said that. I believe in it.










13 year old with long, straight teats and tightly suspended udder.

Genebo
Paradise Farm


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## wstevenl (Mar 26, 2008)

I can't believe how rude the guy was with all his !!s Made it look like he was yelling at you and telling you that you had no idea what you were talking about. Of course teat length is genetic to some degree and over time teats can get longer too. I think the guy said that you can't breed for it because he doesn't have any stock that has it! lol As others have said though, your best chance of getting what you want would be if both parents carry the trait.


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## LizD (Dec 4, 2008)

Hey Gene, nice hand milkable teats but the udder could use better attachment. Still not too bad for a 13 year old. Liz


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

Liz,

What don't you like about the udder attachment? I searched all the University sites for illustrations of perfect attachment and selected this one as the closest to perfect for a family milk cow, beef compromise. The tight attachment was a plus according to them.

This girl produced about 2.5 gallons a day the two times she was milked. She makes dynamite beef calves, with my short legged bull.

I know you're very into milking capability, so I'm anxiously awaiting your reply.

Genebo
Paradise Farm


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## LizD (Dec 4, 2008)

Hi Gene, I am certainly no expert. Probably there are quite a few others here that could give you a more informed opinion but for what its worth.....

The best time to evaluate an udder is just after the cow freshens. But since this is obviously not the case, The udder should be quite tight to the body cavity and I think that her udder floor has dropped and become rounded, indicating a weaker median suspensory ligament, teats should be equal in length and perpendicular to the ground, her front teats seem slightly longer, I think when her udder is engorged the front would hang lower than the back. Both the front attachment and rear could be higher and tighter. 

In spite of saying all of this, your cow has a better udder than a lot of beef cows out there but she just shouldn't really be an example of 'the best' or 'what to look for', imo. L


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## cowkeeper (Feb 17, 2007)

Hi, It is hard to evaluate an empty udder. From what I can see of it in that picture I think the median ligament is ok. If it was shot the teats would point out to the sides. IMO the udder could use a much higher rear attachment and further forward in front too. 
On the plus side, the teats are a nice size for hand milking, the udder overall is holding up well on a cow of that age, and it looks to be a soft texture.ck


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

LizD said:


> Hi Gene, I am certainly no expert. Probably there are quite a few others here that could give you a more informed opinion but for what its worth.....
> 
> The best time to evaluate an udder is just after the cow freshens. But since this is obviously not the case, The udder should be quite tight to the body cavity and I think that her udder floor has dropped and become rounded, indicating a weaker median suspensory ligament, teats should be equal in length and perpendicular to the ground, her front teats seem slightly longer, I think when her udder is engorged the front would hang lower than the back. Both the front attachment and rear could be higher and tighter.
> 
> In spite of saying all of this, your cow has a better udder than a lot of beef cows out there but she just shouldn't really be an example of 'the best' or 'what to look for', imo. L


If the median suspensory ligament is getting weak, I would attribute that to the age of the cow. I would like to see the udder at freshening.


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

The picture was taken in her 7th month of lactation. Her calf was still nursing and continued for another month, when he was sold.

Here she is on day one. The picture isn't very good, but you can see her udder size and shape.










I evaluated her using several University standards. Here is the University of Minnesota standard for judging dairy cattle:

http://www.ansci.umn.edu/dairy/documents/judging_dairy_cattle.pdf

I showed you mine, now you show me yours.

Genebo
Paradise Farm


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

I'd have to go with Genbo, for a beefer that's a very good udder.


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