# Standard of living



## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

Okay, we have some smart folks here, so tell me what I am missing or have wrong cause this doesn't look good to me.
I am totally convinced that the standard of living in the US is going to keep declineing. The solutions is more good paying jobs in this country, that is where it gets sticky. It is easy to say bring back the Maytag plant, build the computer chips here and we need the textile industry to return. That creates questions. How do you compete in a global market? Labor costs and the cost of complyiing with regulations are higher here. If you do nothing either the public pays higher prices for the products, thus it takes more money for the same goods ie lowers standard of living or lower production costs, labor being one which again lowers standard of living or the public buys the foreign product and we are back to square one. What needs to be done to make american manufacturing competetive in the world market? I know there are some frivolous regulations that could be abolished, but are there enough? I don't think anyone wants to go back to dumping chemical waste in rivers or totally unsafe working conditions. I imagine someone is thinking control the amount of profit the rich business can make. that is facism and control of wages or prices of what you do could be next. Plus guess who these business owners are, stockholders. Probably everone with a 401K, Ira or pension is a stockholder throught mutual funds.
Tariffs on imported goods? These prop up business not able to compete and hurt competative businesses that do export and can compete due to counter tariffs being placed by other countries.

The negative trade balance also contributes to lower our standard of living those US dollars that leave and don't come back and not circulated here in purchases and investment.

The government deficient, which is largely funded by the Fed printing money causing inflation. Reduces the buying power of every dollar we earn, save or get as a benefit from the gov.

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

There isn't a solution.
We will continue to decline.
We were on top for quite a while.
We got greedy.
We are on our way down.


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## oth47 (Jan 11, 2008)

I wonder why someone doesn't contact the ceo's of companies that have moved overseas and see what it would take to bring them back?That's what I'd do as president..


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## OkieDavid (Jan 15, 2007)

It is certainly a little gloomy out there. Reducing/relaxing regulations would help but the real obstacle to manufacturing jobs is the labor cost. Not many folks would be willing to go back to 4/hr jobs. For the time being, imports are all we can afford to buy. Over time, manufacturers would have to reduce prices of their products to be able to sell inventory. Folks working for 4/hr could then afford to buy again.

Think of it as a giant "reset" button. This of course will all have to happen AFTER the upcoming depression. Only the folks living through it will be able to experience the regrowth.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

oth47 said:


> I wonder why someone doesn't contact the ceo's of companies that have moved overseas and see what it would take to bring them back?That's what I'd do as president..


That question is easy to answer.
To bring back the companies we would have to compete with the other countries in pay, benefits, and regulations.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Agree with Pancho, but not necessarily about being greedy.

The are many events that put us where we are today, so much of what is happening was the evolution of man and OUR own doing, whether we admit it or not.

- When Social Security was started (and later Medicare), you retired at age 65 and died at 67. Seemed fair at the time. Current Medical care and nutrition, now take our old fogeys, well up into their 80's. No one ever anticipated providing these expensive services for 20 years, or more.

- Unions protected employees from employer abuse and absolutely defined the American middle class standard of living. Great retirement pensions were dished out - for 40 years, presuming that future generations of great paid autoworkers and successful "big three" automakers, will keep the pension money coming in - forever. 

People decided they liked Toyotas and Hondas - (built by lower paid non-union workers) better, so our mighty auto American industry went down the tubes, taking all chances of future pension funding, with it. Either the Government supports their pension programs now, or union retirees go on the public dole. Neither is a good answer.

- Same thing with the Post Office. Worked great until Fed-Ex came along and the Internet made printed (and mailed) catalogs obsolete, while people pay all of their bills electronically.

- Creation of "the great society", took care of a _manageable_ amount of poor, sick and old people. Every economic downturn - including the current one, just greatly added to their ranks, most who for various reasons, never come out of them. Their children matured right into the welfare system, for the same reasons. Now we have 300,000 baby boomers retiring _each month_, many who are flat broke.

- Manufacturing was the backbone, of American society, which for nearly 200 years, was almost exclusively completed on U.S. soil. Japan emerged from the ashes of WWII, China decided, they liked Capitalism, better than Communism and Mexicans will do any job for pay. The rest is history. 

Businesses - all over the world - responsible for their bottom line, could not ignore, these inexpensive manufacturing sources and remain competitive in the marketplace. Many Americans have no desire - whatsoever to sew underwear, paint toys, or work a steel forge - especially for wages competitive on the world market, so simply bringing factories back, to our soil, is not a great option overall.

We had the mightiest workforce in the world, but many, many jobs, have been replaced by technology and are gone for good.

We are "upside down" now, with more people taking money out of the Government, than are putting money into it, via income taxes. Massive cuts in Welfare, Government workers, or SS/Medicare will only push us back into recession, making things worse, than they are now. 

Politicians sidestep the issue, because they know the is no answer, even if they claim there is.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

oth47 said:


> I wonder why someone doesn't contact the ceo's of companies that have moved overseas and see what it would take to bring them back?That's what I'd do as president..


The Fairtax would do many good things in getting these companies and get their headquarters to come back.


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## Tom in TN (Jun 12, 2007)

Okay, I must live in a little cocoon of UNreality. Personally, my standard of living has not declined at all. I don't have any friends or family members who are struggling financially, at least, none that I know of. 

Not one of my neighbors is in foreclosure. Every one of them has a decent automobile, decent housing, decent clothing, and seemingly at least, decent food. The local car dealers are selling cars that cost $30,000 - $40,000 regularly.

Dave Ramsey is a folk-hero around here, and many people are achieving freedom from debts. Who doesn't have a cell phone and at least one computer of some form or fashion? I don't have an iPod, iPad, or iPhone but that's because I don't want one. Most of the people I know do have them.

Honest-to-goodness, things look pretty good to me. I see the foreclosure notices in the paper everyday and I generally read them for curiosity. I never know any of the people.

So, what's the deal? I'm not rich. I came from a poor, broken family, but things have been good my entire adult life.

I wish everyone was as satisfied with life as I am.

Tom in TN


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Our standard of living will be fine when people realize that buying their 8 year old kids flat screen tvs, $100.00 tennis shoes, smart phones made in China, on credit cards, and buying a McMansion that sucks away your entire debt to income ratio does not equal happpiness and a high standard of living. It's what got them into this mess to begin with.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Haven said:


> Our standard of living will be fine when people realize that buying their 8 year old kids flat screen tvs, $100.00 tennis shoes, smart phones made in China, on credit cards, and buying a McMansion that sucks away your entire debt to income ratio does not equal happpiness and a high standard of living. It's what got them into this mess to begin with.


There is over 12 million people jobless, some for several years, in America.

How will they be "fine"?


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

My local Super Wal Mart parking lot is over flowing with about 600 cars right now buying up Chinese goods. The place is a mad house of frenzied shoppers 24/7. The Chinese don't have time to shop; they are too busy right now making those goods for .25 cents per hour.

Americans are addicted to buying this junk, and they wont stop.


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

Tom Here in Nebraska things have stayed pretty good, but we are an agricultural state and prices have been good. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean its not happening. Median income is down, food stamp is up , inflation on actual needs is way up.


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## jaredI (Aug 6, 2011)

I don't see any way around our "standard of living" declining. America grew quickly, thanks to capitalism an freedoms most countries haven't had. Other countries are on the rise, and their standards of living are increasing, when their standards match ours, we will start improving our standards of living again. 
Think of it more as a world standard of living vs. and American standard of living.
At least this is my take on it, but I could very easily be wrong.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Haven said:


> Our standard of living will be fine when people realize that buying their 8 year old kids flat screen tvs, $100.00 tennis shoes, smart phones made in China, on credit cards, and buying a McMansion that sucks away your entire debt to income ratio does not equal happpiness and a high standard of living. It's what got them into this mess to begin with.


I think you make a valid point. Most Americans buy a lot of junk, but they put it on credit cards, which allows them to buy way beyond their means. People need to learn to live within their means. As far as bringing jobs back and being competitive, right now other countries don't have to pay much to sell their products here. If we raised their costs to do business here, it might make the competition with our own produces more equal, but right now other countries don't have the labor laws we have, so they can run sweat shops and cut their costs to produce items.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Haven said:


> Our standard of living will be fine when people realize that buying their 8 year old kids flat screen tvs, $100.00 tennis shoes, smart phones made in China, on credit cards, and buying a McMansion that sucks away your entire debt to income ratio does not equal happpiness and a high standard of living. It's what got them into this mess to begin with.


I completely agree that all that is very important for the individual family. However, bad times are coming because politicians both Rs and Ds are bankrupting the country and people continue to demand more giveaways. 

And it might come in the form of the gov't taxing people who have prepped because they are "rich".


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

pancho said:


> There isn't a solution.
> We will continue to decline.
> We were on top for quite a while.
> We got greedy.
> We are on our way down.


And we turned our backs on the LORD and government has tried to became God.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Sonshine said:


> I think you make a valid point. Most Americans buy a lot of junk, but they put it on credit cards, which allows them to buy way beyond their means. People need to learn to live within their means. As far as bringing jobs back and being competitive, right now other countries don't have to pay much to sell their products here. If we raised their costs to do business here, it might make the competition with our own produces more equal, but right now other countries don't have the labor laws we have, so they can run sweat shops and cut their costs to produce items.


making imported widgets more expensive does help the owners and workers of US Widget, Inc. But that comes at the price of making widgets more expensive for every American. It is a net loss for the country. That has been proven over and over in countries around the world. One of the causes of the great depression was reduced trade from tariffs on trade. Sure, we make it harder for China to sell in the US and then China confiscates US assets in the form of McD's and KFC's in China and makes it harder for the US to sell in China. Everyone loses.

In lots of African countries they have tried "infant industry" tariffs to protect young local companies from having to compete with imports. Rarely does this result in the local company getting out of the infant stage and being able to compete in the world market.


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## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

I guess we will have to wait until all the workers in the world are making the same wage and other business factors are equal.The living standard is very good here in farm country.They can't move our fertile land to china.They would like to buy it all up though.


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## postroad (Jan 19, 2009)

There comes a time when one comes up against a resorce wall. Standard of living have reached there peak untill we can exploit the resoures of outside planets.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

High standard of living isn't all about money so I don't think you should be focusing on money and higher paying jobs for people. America already pays it's workers very well by comparison with most other countries and it ranks 3rd globally for GDP so increased manufacturing and higher rates of pay isn't the answer you should be looking for. There are many countries that are poorer than America, the people get paid on lesser pay scales but they have a higher standard of living and are higher on the *global prosperity index*. The rankings on the prosperity index are based not only on GDP but according to a large variety of factors including wealth, economic growth, personal wellbeing, education, emotional and physical health and general quality of life and expectations, just to name a few. 

The chart below shows the top 30 countries on the prosperity index - that is to say the top 30 countries that have the highest standards of living on a global basis. You'll see on there that USA presently ranks # 10. 

Perhaps to discover what could be done that could improve your standards of living in USA is to study those countries that already rank higher than USA to see what they all have in common with each other that USA does not have in common with them.

One thing I can tell you that 29 out of the 30 have in common is some form of universal health care system in place. Universal healthcare - which is not based in capitalism - is one thing that definitely does improve the general standard of living for any country and its entire population.


1. Norway 
2. Denmark
3. Australia
4. New Zealand
5. Sweden
6. Canada
7. Finland
8. Switzerland
9. Netherlands
10. United States
11. Ireland
12. Iceland
13. United Kingdom
14. Austria
15. Germany
16. Singapore
17. Belgium
18. France
19. Hong Kong
20. Taiwan
21. Japan
22. Slovenia
23. Spain
24. South Korea
25. Portugal
26. Czech Republic
27. United Arab Emirates
28. Poland
29. Uruguay
30. Italy


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## Tom in TN (Jun 12, 2007)

Naturelover,

So call me a closed-minded Nationalist, but the fact is, I don't care one bit about what any other country does. I don't envy any of them and I don't want to be like them. I wouldn't even consider living anywhere but in the USA. I detest Socialism and have no interest in a government controlled medical industry.

If anyone wants to leave America for the better life in one of the other countries, I say, "Good-bye - don't let the door hit you on your way out." And, if you have it better in your native country than we have it in America, stay away.

Tom in TN


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

We are in the solution now as this depression proceeds and those in UMC who got there beyond their means lose what they have and those who have lived within or below their means wait things out as best they can.

At the same time that we wait , the overseas markets that offered less expensive labor in the past now demand higher wages. 

When their demands rise high enough to make shipping of finished goods more expensive and domestic labor is willing to accept a reasonable wage the jobs will return. If history repeats itself 10 to 20 years should lapse until the next recession/depression cycle begins.

On the bright side the first 5 to 10 years depending on recessive steps is the worse and the 10 years or so on the backend are the recovery and folks generally do the happy :dance: as the signs of improvement show themselves.

This is my third recession/depression and its playing out about the same as the other two did.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?


Well, I'll give it a shot. 

We need to return to what made America great in the first place: sweatshops and immigrant labor. 

Abolish minimum wage laws and open the borders to people willing to come here and work. (Let them in, but make them ineligible for any kind of welfare.)

Not many Americans are going to want to toil away on an assembly line or in a slaughterhouse for $2 an hour, but the deal might be acceptable to someone from Haiti or Somalia who wants to give their kids an education and a shot at a better life. 

And native-born Americans can achieve prosperity by selling the immigrants haircuts, shoes and coffins. 

Everybody wins! Just like they did 100 years ago.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Tom in TN said:


> Naturelover,
> 
> So call me a closed-minded Nationalist, but the fact is, I don't care one bit about what any other country does. I don't envy any of them and I don't want to be like them. I wouldn't even consider living anywhere but in the USA. I detest Socialism and have no interest in a government controlled medical industry.
> 
> ...


Tom in Tn, thanks for addressing your comment to me. In response I'll say that I was not suggesting that America should have universal healthcare. I don't think it can ever possibly work effectively in your country the way it does for the rest of the evolving world. However, I do think the system America presently has does account for the lowered standard of living for millions of Americans. I feel sorry for them and don't know what your nation can do to resolve that problem but it's not my problem and not something that I'm going to concern myself with.

Personally I don't think the overall standard of living in America is low, I think it's rather excessive. Considering the high population (3rd highest in world population) and the excessive consumption of global resources and the debts that the nation has incurred to support a huge military machine I think the standard of living there is extremely high and is just simply taken for granted because that's what people have gotten used to and think they're entitled to. 

You will do what pleases you of course but with regard to what you call nationalism I suspect that as long as more and more people like yourself continue to reinforce and maintain your desire for regressing into isolationism and ignorance of the rest of the progressing world while running on debts then you will eventually hold yourselves and your nation back and sink into much lower standards of living than what you have now. 

Then you'll be just like everyone else. 

.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Get government out of the private citizens pocket. People band together in like minded communities making/doing for themselves. Quit giving their lives to the system, live the good life close to home and living on/with things produced locally. Fuel (oil products) is the downfall, we are living by what foregin countries are making us pay. Good ole' american made will get this country moving again....James


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Maybe we raised our "standard of living" so high that we lost some "quality of life". 

A couple generations ago, we didn't have our elderly living lonely lives alone until they get so weak they have to go to the nursing home to be cared for by strangers making minimum wage. They lived with their families. We didn't have "latch-key kids" coming home to an empty house and left to their own devices until their divorced mother/father gets home from work. We didn't have families isolated in different rooms of the same house, staring at tv screens, computers, games, etc. instead of interacting with each other. A house and a car was the American dream, not a McMansion and an SUV for everyone old enough to drive. 

Maybe we crossed the line of needing too much "stuff", too much convenience, too much, period. 

Can we learn to live simpler lives or are we going to be unhappy because we don't have enough designer labels, electronic gadgets and made in china plastic carp??


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## Tom in TN (Jun 12, 2007)

Nature Lover says, "You will do what pleases you of course but with regard to what you call nationalism I suspect that as long as more and more people like yourself continue to reinforce and maintain your desire for regressing into isolationism and ignorance of the rest of the progressing world while running on debts then you will eventually hold yourselves and your nation back and sink into much lower standards of living than what you have now. 

Then you'll be just like everyone else."

Oh, Brother! "Regressing into isolationism and ignorance"? "The rest of the progressing world"? Look anywhere else in the world and see if it has "progressed" beyond America! I don't want to be like anyone else. I consider the rest of entire world to be backwards when compared to America.

And what is with this self-loathing that permeates so many threads? You guys are beginning to sound like President Obama. "We" consume too much. "We" abandon our older people. "We" have latch-key kids. "We" have excessive debt. Etc., etc. I'm not a "we" in any of those things that you criticize America for doing.

The beauty of our country is that "we" don't have to do any those things, and if some people decide to do those things, that's "their" business, not ours and certainly not some government bureaucrat's.

No thanks. I'll take our freedom over anyone else's deciding how I should live my life.

Tom in TN


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> 1. Norway
> 2. Denmark
> 3. Australia
> 4. New Zealand
> ...


I hate comparisons of our Country to those that are smaller than most of our STATES.

I also suspect it's too *arbitrary* and there are a lot of *politics* involved in the rankings.

Legatum Prosperity Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

What is Standard of Living? What are ideals and desires? These are the same things and they vary for every individual. What the governments dictation of average standard of living is, are the material possessions of the one person that is dead center average of the 311,800,000 people in the U.S.

"O"


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

English Oliver said:


> What is Standard of Living? What are ideals and desires? These are the same things and they vary for every individual. What the governments dictation of average standard of living is, are the material possessions of the one person that is dead center average of the 311,800,000 people in the U.S.
> 
> "O"


yeah, you really have to know the methods behind any of these international comparisons. Naturelover says all the top rankers but the US have universal healthcare. Well, if the method for determining high standard of living is having universal healthcare, then the US wil always lose. If the method involves having higher standards for healthcare like lower wait times in ERs, greater and sooner access to kidney dialysis, etc, then the US would be at or near the top.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

oth47 said:


> I wonder why someone doesn't contact the ceo's of companies that have moved overseas and see what it would take to bring them back?That's what I'd do as president..


50 cents an hour labor. No OSHA or EPA regs. No taxes. Favorable legislation for them to make the rules, get more subsidies. That's just what I can think of right now.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> Agree with Pancho, but not necessarily about being greedy.
> 
> The are many events that put us where we are today, so much of what is happening was the evolution of man and OUR own doing, whether we admit it or not.
> 
> - When Social Security was started (and later Medicare), you retired at age 65 and died at 67. Seemed fair at the time. Current Medical care and nutrition, now take our old fogeys, well up into their 80's. No one ever anticipated providing these expensive services for 20 years, or more.


Uh. . .no. When SS started you could retire at 65 but the odds were you died at *60*. This way there would always be more money coming into the ponzi scheme than going out.




plowjockey said:


> - Unions protected employees from employer abuse and absolutely defined the American middle class standard of living. Great retirement pensions were dished out - for 40 years, presuming that future generations of great paid autoworkers and successful "big three" automakers, will keep the pension money coming in - forever.
> 
> People decided they liked Toyotas and Hondas - (built by lower paid non-union workers) better, so our mighty auto American industry went down the tubes, taking all chances of future pension funding, with it. Either the Government supports their pension programs now, or union retirees go on the public dole. Neither is a good answer.


You seem to not know your history very well. People started liking Toyotas and Hondas because the union labor at "the big three" was producing CRAP! Ever notice you don't see very many 1970s cars or trucks? That's because they didn't last. Remember when Harley was almost out of business? That's because their bikes SUCKED. The almost joke was when you bought a Harley you had to buy two so you'd have one to ride while the other was in the shop. (or so you'd have one for spare parts)

Japanese vehicles were built in modern plants where a robot ALWAYS put the correct number of lug nuts on at the proper torque. It didn't need a 20 min break every two hours. It didn't need an hour off for lunch. It didn't need time and a half when it worked more than 8 hours. And you didn't have to worry about it going on strike. When US plants tried to modernize to compete the unions went nuts because they didn't worry about the company nor the product only about how much money they could get out of the company.




plowjockey said:


> - Manufacturing was the backbone, of American society, which for nearly 200 years, was almost exclusively completed on U.S. soil. Japan emerged from the ashes of WWII, China decided, they liked Capitalism, better than Communism and Mexicans will do any job for pay. The rest is history.


And the US failed to see the change coming and kept right on trying to live in the 1950s.




plowjockey said:


> Businesses - all over the world - responsible for their bottom line, could not ignore, these inexpensive manufacturing sources and remain competitive in the marketplace. Many Americans have no desire - whatsoever to sew underwear, paint toys, or work a steel forge - especially for wages competitive on the world market, so simply bringing factories back, to our soil, is not a great option overall.


Businesses also could and can not compete with the government. Why would someone want to work for $10/hr when they can sit at home and 'make' $12/hr?




plowjockey said:


> We are "upside down" now, with more people taking money out of the Government, than are putting money into it, via income taxes. Massive cuts in Welfare, Government workers, or SS/Medicare will only push us back into recession, making things worse, than they are now.


You can either cut off the gangrenous limb or let the patient die.




plowjockey said:


> Politicians sidestep the issue, because they know the is no answer, even if they claim there is.


There are answers its just the people sucking on the government teat don't want to hear they need to be weaned.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

willow_girl said:


> Well, I'll give it a shot.
> 
> We need to return to what made America great in the first place: sweatshops and immigrant labor.
> 
> ...


Isn't amazing how many people were trying to get into this horrible country back then? Because they knew if they worked hard they could rise out of the sweatshop and could even start their own business.


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

I think the sollution is to start with yourself. Start cutting the overhead for your life. Do without, make do, live on less, and look for alternatives that suit your needs. Be willing to make the mental changes it takes to adapt. 

Even if the economy climbs out of this hole, eventually the economy is going to get run into the ground again.....maybe not in a decade but within two or three decades. So, it is better to learn to live on less, be frugal, be thankful, and to seek security from nature then it is to have faith in man made economies.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

As has been expained, as wages in other coutries rise our own labor will become competitive again, when you factor in shipping of raw materials and finished goods. What won't level out is our tax structure. We have the highest corporate tax rate in the industrialized world.

The fair tax would do away with that, but would take too much power away from the politicians for ever to come to pass. The other option would be to drastically lower the corporate tax rate, and make it financially feasible for companies to bring what are currently marginally profitable overseas operations back to this country. If done in conjuction with a tax holiday for repatriated profits the effect would be almost immediate.

Of course, until we, as a people get over the hatred of "corporate greed" that won't happen either. The politicians and academics pushing the mindset of "fair share" have unintentionally forced a good portion of our current situation into being.

In my opinion those are the answers, but given the realities of our political and academic systems, I'm buying lots of spices for our bean recipes.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

bruce2288 said:


> I am totally convinced that the standard of living in the US is going to keep declining.


It will keep declining to an extent. For the last few decades our nation has lived on credit. And it is time to pay the bill. Unfortunately, some people will be hurt more than others.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

The problem the U.S. has is a simple one.
People and govt. living beyond their means.
The people who have decided to live according to what they bring in are doing alright. They won't have a problem.
The people who have the problems are the people who live beyond their means with the help of easy credit, credit cards, and consolidated loans. These people, just like our govt. , has spent more then they will ever make. The govt. can make their own money so do not have much to worry about. The people can't make their own money.
The people who live on credit cards, has to have the latest electronic toys, and everyone in their family has to have a new car will be in for a shock.
The sooner these people go broke the sooner the country gets back on track.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

CesumPec said:


> making imported widgets more expensive does help the owners and workers of US Widget, Inc. But that comes at the price of making widgets more expensive for every American. It is a net loss for the country. That has been proven over and over in countries around the world. One of the causes of the great depression was reduced trade from tariffs on trade. Sure, we make it harder for China to sell in the US and then China confiscates US assets in the form of McD's and KFC's in China and makes it harder for the US to sell in China. Everyone loses.
> 
> In lots of African countries they have tried "infant industry" tariffs to protect young local companies from having to compete with imports. Rarely does this result in the local company getting out of the infant stage and being able to compete in the world market.


But what happens if the American consumers simply stop buying all this imported stuff? They better stop soon, because it is getting to the point now where we don't even have a choice to buy certain US products cause none exist.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

MO_cows said:


> Maybe we raised our "standard of living" so high that we lost some "quality of life".
> 
> Maybe we crossed the line of needing too much "stuff", too much convenience, too much, period.
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

Well nobody is telling me I'm wrong unfortunately.

Standard of lliving- quality and quantity of goods and services availble to individuals(what they can afford). Usually measured by inflation adjusted income.

Quality of life and standard of living are not neccessarily the same. I would agree there are a lot of excesses in the american lifestyle, much fueled by personal and government debt.


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

Well nobody is telling me I'm wrong unfortunately.

Standard of lliving- quality and quantity of goods and services availble to individuals(what they can afford). Usually measured by inflation adjusted income.

Quality of life and standard of living are not neccessarily the same. I would agree there are a lot of excesses in the american lifestyle, much fueled by personal and government debt.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Tom in TN said:


> ...... *Look anywhere else in the world and see if it has "progressed" beyond America!*


I have already previously showed you at least 9 other countries whose standards of living have progressed beyond America's and you turn a blind eye and can't bear to acknowledge that. That kind of dogmatic rejection of awareness is what makes you a backward isolationist and ignorant of what's going on around America.



Tom in TN said:


> I don't want to be like anyone else. I consider the rest of entire world to be backwards when compared to America.


Yes, well you've already made it quite clear what you think of the rest of the world and that you don't want to be like anyone else. And that's okay because with your kind of attitude no other country would want you to be like them or to be like you and it's probably better for everyone else if you do isolate yourself and continue to distance yourself from others.

*So why are you protesting so much then?* I really don't think anyone else who's more aware would care about your head in the sand protests. 






Bearfootfarm said:


> I hate comparisons of our Country to those that are smaller than most of our STATES.


Would you prefer to be compared with China and India only, who have higher populations but whose standards of living are clearly not as high as America's? Would it make you feel better about your own standards of life to only be compared with countries that are beneath you in standards but higher in population? If that's your criteria I think that would be unrealistic. It wouldn't be possible to make comparisons with any of the other countries that have higher standards of living and higher quality of life because nobody else besides China and India has equal or larger populations than America.

Size isn't everything.  Sometimes it's even a painful hindrance.

.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I hate comparisons of our Country to those that are smaller than most of our STATES.
> 
> *I also suspect* it's too arbitrary and there are a lot of politics involved in the rankings.
> 
> Legatum Prosperity Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I can show you what their criteria is if you're interested, I was reading it last night. Forbes wrote a 4 pages long article about it defining what Legatum's criteria is. Would you like to see it? If so I'll go find the article again.

Never mind. Here it is: http://www.forbes.com/2011/01/19/no...ness-washington-world-happiest-countries.html

Each country is ranked on 89 variables sorted into eight subsections: economy, entrepreneurship, governance, education, health, safety, personal freedom and social capital. 

Here is Legatum's website: http://www.prosperity.com/



.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Each country is ranked on 89 variables sorted into eight subsections: economy, entrepreneurship, governance, education, health, safety, personal freedom and social capital.


Most of those things are pretty arbitrary and open to interpretation.
The only VALID comparisons are "Are *we* better or worse than *we* were before?".


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## pcwerk (Sep 2, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> Well, I'll give it a shot.
> 
> We need to return to what made America great in the first place: sweatshops and immigrant labor.
> 
> Disagree completely. What built the middle class and gave us the high standard of living in the first place is what you propose to get rid of--unions, minimum wage,etc. We use to have tariffs on anything not made here in the US. We start those back up and start taxing companies heavily that want to move out to China and such to make their products, and you will see those good paying jobs come back! Pretty simple really. DO what worked BEFORE!!


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> We use to have tariffs on anything not made here in the US. We start those back up and start taxing companies heavily that want to move out to China and such to make their products, and you will see those good paying jobs come back!


And the price of a pair of Wal-Mart jeans will be $40 instead of $14. So how will we be better off, exactly?

We have enjoyed this "prosperity" ("illusion of prosperity" might be more accurate) because of the tremendous residual wealth in this country originally generated in the post-WWII boom. The people with that money (and their children who inherited it) have used it largely to buy goods made cheap by virtue of being produced by virtual slaves in the Third World. It's a perfect storm of affluence -- tremendous wealth meeting bargain-priced goods -- but it's coming to an end.

So as not to end on a sad note, I'll add that one hopeful possibility is innovation. If America can invent things the rest of the world wants -- as it has done so many times before -- it has a shot at staying on top.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Most of those things are pretty arbitrary and open to interpretation.
> The only VALID comparisons are "Are *we* better or worse than *we* were before?".


Well, according to their criteria, America ranks very highest in the world for entrepreneurship and overall work ethic and industry. So I think that has to count for something. Whether or not that makes you better than you were before (before what, before when?) I wouldn't attempt to say, but I think those attributes are things that other countries would be motivated to try to match. That motivating force has to make for a better world in general in the long run.

.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Haven said:


> But what happens if the American consumers simply stop buying all this imported stuff? They better stop soon, because it is getting to the point now where we don't even have a choice to buy certain US products cause none exist.


We really don't have much choice, sometimes.

I purchased a Chinese made automotive transmission jack today, on sale for $230.

It's an knock-off from an American made jack - which sells for $2,000.00

I can't afford to pay 2 grand for a jack and in no way, do I believe that it costs nearly 10 times as much, to make that jack here.

Can't even use the quality angle - which I am sure the American made jack is, but I have Chinese hydraulic jacks, that are 25 years old and still work like new.

It's an unfortunate reality. 

If all manufacturing is moved back here, will we be able to afford, to buy anything?


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Haven said:


> But what happens if the American consumers simply stop buying all this imported stuff? They better stop soon, because it is getting to the point now where we don't even have a choice to buy certain US products cause none exist.


people vote with their wallet every day...at Walmart. 

So you may have a good idea, but it is sort of like Libertarians asking for votes for Ron Paul or Gary Johnson.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

willow_girl said:


> And the price of a pair of Wal-Mart jeans will be $40 instead of $14. So how will we be better off, exactly?


Exactly. when I was a teen in the 70s, I had to pay for my own jeans. I remember having to pay a huge sum to me, nearly $30 for off brand stuff. Today, I buy my jeans at Walmart and pay $10 - $14. Adjusting for inflation over 30+ years, that's like they have become about 80 - 90% cheaper. I just don't see how I would be better off today if i had to pay so much more for nothing more to me than an American label.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

_"You seem to not know your history very well. People started liking Toyotas and Hondas because the union labor at "the big three" was producing CRAP! Ever notice you don't see very many 1970s cars or trucks? That's because they didn't last. Remember when Harley was almost out of business? That's because their bikes SUCKED. The almost joke was when you bought a Harley you had to buy two so you'd have one to ride while the other was in the shop. (or so you'd have one for spare parts)"_

The union labor wasn't doing the *designing* and *engineering. * It was the design and engineering that made the vehicles crap, not the assembly. The auto industry tried to go from bigger, bigger, faster, faster to smaller and cheaper overnight in response to rising gas prices and the tidal wave of environmental and safety regulations, and also foreign competition BUT it was the gas situation and enviro regs that let the Japanese cars get a foothold in the market in the first place. And your memory is a wee bit selective - those early 70's American cars were still good. It was the lower priced stuff of the late 70's and early 80's that they would have been better off not making. Sorry, can't agree that the union was the scapegoat. Politicians, bureaucrats and management have to take their lumps for that one.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

MO_cows said:


> _
> The union labor wasn't doing the *designing* and *engineering. * It was the design and engineering that made the vehicles crap, not the assembly. _


_

A union tactic in the 70s was to put loose bolts in doors to punish the auto companies for not being more generous. "Lordstown Syndrome" became the name for sabotage of cars, plants, and equipment. So bad cars did result from assembly. I remember my Dad saying never buy a car made on Mondays or Fridays because you couldn't trust that the cars . 

Of course, that doesn't mean that the big three didn't make huge mistakes in design and engineering._


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

MO_cows said:


> _"You seem to not know your history very well. People started liking Toyotas and Hondas because the union labor at "the big three" was producing CRAP! Ever notice you don't see very many 1970s cars or trucks? That's because they didn't last. Remember when Harley was almost out of business? That's because their bikes SUCKED. The almost joke was when you bought a Harley you had to buy two so you'd have one to ride while the other was in the shop. (or so you'd have one for spare parts)"_
> 
> The union labor wasn't doing the *designing* and *engineering. * It was the design and engineering that made the vehicles crap, not the assembly. The auto industry tried to go from bigger, bigger, faster, faster to smaller and cheaper overnight in response to rising gas prices and the tidal wave of environmental and safety regulations, and also foreign competition BUT it was the gas situation and enviro regs that let the Japanese cars get a foothold in the market in the first place. And your memory is a wee bit selective - those early 70's American cars were still good. It was the lower priced stuff of the late 70's and early 80's that they would have been better off not making. Sorry, can't agree that the union was the scapegoat. Politicians, bureaucrats and management have to take their lumps for that one.


The unions were the ones who had new cars coming off the line with lose lug nuts and parts not installed correctly if at all.

I know that there was a lot of problems in the 70s auto industry but a lot of it was due to the fact the manufactures could not 'change with the times' because they were locked into union contracts. Unions fought tooth and nail to prevent modernization because that meant robots and robots meant fewer workers paying dues which meant the union bosses might have to cut down on the number of two grand suits they bought a year.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

oth47 said:


> I wonder why someone doesn't contact the ceo's of companies that have moved overseas and see what it would take to bring them back?That's what I'd do as presi
> 
> Americans who will work 12 hour days, 7 days a week for 40 cents an hour might bring some of them back. Keep in mind that that is 40 cents an hour more than they will have , if laid off; soon after the elections are finished.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

watcher said:


> The unions were the ones who had new cars coming off the line with lose lug nuts and parts not installed correctly if at all.
> 
> I know that there was a lot of problems in the 70s auto industry but a lot of it was due to the fact the manufactures could not 'change with the times' because they were locked into union contracts. Unions fought tooth and nail to prevent modernization because that meant robots and robots meant fewer workers paying dues which meant the union bosses might have to cut down on the number of two grand suits they bought a year.


I remember someone we knew who worked at an auto plant saying they were tempted to put a paper bag over their head when they were coming and going from the factory because they didn't want anyone to know it was them building that crap. They went from building cars they were proud of to cars they knew were no good. So with no pride or morale, I can see where the quality of work would go downhill, too. 

I don't agree with characterizing the rank and file union members who are just trying to make a living for their families as somehow greedy or evil. The union members have simply done the same thing as the American people as a whole - not paid close enough attention to who was getting voted in to the leadership.


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## Ohiogal (Mar 15, 2007)

I can only relate to you what is happening where I work. The cost of the commodity to produce the product has gone up 50%. The cost of medical benefits, and retirement contributions to the unions has effectively priced them out of the company. The end result is that this month 61 people will be laid off and whole parts of the company closed to stem the bleeding from the bottom line. This is after everything was tried to make a profit with those unions standing with their hands out year after year wanting more and more for the membership. Meanwhile, the unorganized people who worked for corporate gave up benefits, pay raises, and retirement contributions themselves to make up for what the union was sucking from the company.
As much as I like the people I work with, the inequality of pay between the unions and the salaried personell is very stark and not justified. Until we as Americans fairly rate the degree of value of a job to pay rates, we will have no improvement over the job situation for a larger manufacturer.
All of this is due to the petro-dollar and the use of debt to build this lifestyle we know as America. People don't want less, they want more and more. Greed pure and simple.
The solution is to buy local food to support the farmers, and live with less. Despite what we all do, there are factors in the wind that will eventually cause a collapse of the US Dollar and make us all equal once again. Those that have something they -own- are going to be hard pressed to keep it. Those that only owe on what they "own" are going to lose it.
Not a happy situation to be sure. But the end result will be that a loaf of baked bread will once again be valued more over an Iphone.
This country's youth has a lot to learn about working and what "work" means in general. They are too addicted to instant gratification and will be the first to riot when things collapse.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

willow_girl said:


> And the price of a pair of Wal-Mart jeans will be $40 instead of $14. So how will we be better off, exactly?
> 
> We have enjoyed this "prosperity" ("illusion of prosperity" might be more accurate) because of the tremendous residual wealth in this country originally generated in the post-WWII boom. The people with that money (and their children who inherited it) have used it largely to buy goods made cheap by virtue of being produced by virtual slaves in the Third World. It's a perfect storm of affluence -- tremendous wealth meeting bargain-priced goods -- but it's coming to an end.
> 
> So as not to end on a sad note, I'll add that one hopeful possibility is innovation. If America can invent things the rest of the world wants -- as it has done so many times before -- it has a shot at staying on top.


Yep, the sad fact that most Americans can't fathom is America only prospered when the rest of the world was mostly totally devastated. The big change in lifestyle came after the war. Let's look at the time line a bit...

1900-30 most people in the US lived in cities and worked in factories for nearly nothing. Farmers were largely poor. Good life?

1930-1946 most people suffered the depression and then the war rations. Farmers and city folk mostly starved. Good life?

1946-1970 Babies, buildings, bread and butter. But the rest of the world was still recovering. No? Took a while to rebuild no real competition. 

1970-1980 Gas lines, inflation, misery index. Good life? 

1980-2005 Spending on credit! Both house hold and Government. Cheap easy money. Party time!


So where is the American exceptional-ism?


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Personally I would rather go back to paying 40.00 for 1 pair of good US made jeans compared to paying 9.99 and buying 10 pairs of el-cheapos that wear out 10x faster. We lived like this prior to the 90's and everyone was fine. Everything nowadays is so cheaply made, that they are disposable. Back then if a button fell off, you sewed it back on and wore it 5 more years. Buttons will fall off, color fades after 1 wash, and stitching will unravel after wearing Wal Mart clothes 1 time - people just toss it out and buy more. By the time you replace all of the broken stuff multiple times, you already paid more than you would of for 1 quality piece to begin with.

I have to drive 30 mins to an amish store to buy my husband 150.00 US made shoes because none exist around here. They last for years. If I buy 20.00 shoes from China the soles split and crack in half after about 2 months and they are in the trash.

Everytime I buy an American product, I think of the worker who made it some US town, and the paycheck he will be taking home because of my choice to buy Amercian.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Haven said:


> I have to drive 30 mins to an amish store to buy my husband 150.00 US made shoes because none exist around here. They last for years. If I buy 20.00 shoes from China the soles split and crack in half after about 2 months and they are in the trash.


There's a way around that you know, it's something I often do and it saves me a lot of money. 

You buy the $20 shoes with the trashy soles then immediately take the shoes to your local American cobbler and have him put better soles on over top of the trashy soles for another $20. A total of $40 beats $150 any day, the shoes last as long as the better soles do and your American cobbler got some business out of you so you're still helping to support your own local economy.

.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

MO_cows said:


> _
> The union labor wasn't doing the *designing* and *engineering. * It was the design and engineering that made the vehicles crap, not the assembly. _


_

Nonsense. I can remember pulling into an auto dealer lot to get a repair and being at the end of a giant line of new cars waiting for it to open with things like handles that fell off because no screw was put on or pieces of the car that fell off while driving because they hadn't even been fastened. 
There used to be quite a bit of talk about the hoping you did not get a "Monday" assembled new car as that was supposed to be when auto workers showed up with hangovers and lots of mistakes were made.
There was lots of blame to go around- unions included. I remember saying back then that I hoped to someday earn what a starting janitor made at Ford._


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

As long as manufacturers can find a combo of cheap labor overseas plus low cost shipping to get it to market, wages will continue to fall in the US. Right up to the point that fuel costs for shipping make import prohibitively expensive for all those people working in the US for those low wages. 

The whole ecomony has been skewed. Why ever should it cost more just to buy material to make a shirt than it costs to buy a ready made shirt? Whose protected?


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## Ohiogal (Mar 15, 2007)

Local manufacturers - like where I work - we make snack foods, are hard pressed to stay in business because the consumer nearly always buys the crappy brand that is cheaper other than the better more healthy brand that is .20 a bag. That is what it is, I have no solution other than people getting real about what it takes to produce a product here in America, without $2 an hour wages and poor quality commodities that go into the product.
Just yesterday I was in Columbus at the American Quarter Horse Congress and you would not believe how expensive the crappy things have become. Nearly all the clothing with big name brands on it is from overseas - China, Vietnam, Pakistan, the list is endless. 
The few things that are still made in America - saddles for instance - are hugely expensive for a lower end model like I use. Same for strap goods. I will NOT buy cheap and will NOT buy out of US of A if I have a choice anymore.
Most of my issue is how to find it to begin with to buy it!


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I went on a quest to buy only American (OK- some Canadian too) food items. I did well until the WTO court case came down "forcing" the US to remove country of origin food labels from products. 
Now it is hard to find anything labeled. There are a few labeled with the US label but they were actually imported ingredients just repackaged in the US.
The US could have done a work around, like say having a food rating system on the label that involves standards and inspections, but they didn't even try.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Ohiogal said:


> Local manufacturers - like where I work - we make snack foods, are hard pressed to stay in business because the consumer nearly always buys the crappy brand that is cheaper other than the better more healthy brand that is .20 a bag. That is what it is, I have no solution other than people getting real about what it takes to produce a product here in America, without $2 an hour wages and poor quality commodities that go into the product.
> Just yesterday I was in Columbus at the American Quarter Horse Congress and you would not believe how expensive the crappy things have become. Nearly all the clothing with big name brands on it is from overseas - China, Vietnam, Pakistan, the list is endless.
> *The few things that are still made in America - saddles for instance - are hugely expensive f*or a lower end model like I use. Same for strap goods. I will NOT buy cheap and will NOT buy out of US of A if I have a choice anymore.
> Most of my issue is how to find it to begin with to buy it!


Yes I know all about expensive saddle. I had one made from Bob's Custom Saddles in Scottsdale, AZ. A "Monty Foreman Balanced Ride".
I sold it years later, and still got over 2K for it.
And a few years ago I ordered a harness for my miniature horses from Canada. "Ron's Horse Harnesses" Now it is called "Amber Hillside Horse Harness"


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

MO_cows said:


> I remember someone we knew who worked at an auto plant saying they were tempted to put a paper bag over their head when they were coming and going from the factory because they didn't want anyone to know it was them building that crap. They went from building cars they were proud of to cars they knew were no good. So with no pride or morale, I can see where the quality of work would go downhill, too.
> 
> I don't agree with characterizing the rank and file union members who are just trying to make a living for their families as somehow greedy or evil. The union members have simply done the same thing as the American people as a whole - not paid close enough attention to who was getting voted in to the leadership.


I can tell you unions were a MAJOR factor in killing off the shoe industry in the US and was THE factor in shutting down one shoe factory. I can tell you because I was there. I saw how the union fought tooth and nail to stop the company from bringing in new automatic machines because the new machines needed fewer worker to make the same production. My family was die hard union (both of my were union stewards at one time) and I kept telling them they were cutting off their noses to spite their faces. But the union bosses kept telling the workers at the union hall to say no to the new machinery. After the bosses flew into town on the private jet, were picked up in a limo and driven to the steak house then their suit at the top of the line hotel in town.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> The Fairtax would do many good things in getting these companies and get their headquarters to come back.


Fairtax=Daydream for some. It is not there/here. Might as well talk ablut Alice in Wonderland.:bouncy:


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

edcopp said:


> Fairtax=Daydream for some. It is not there/here. Might as well talk ablut Alice in Wonderland.:bouncy:


There is a bill floating through to get it up and running. Lets hope it really takes a hold.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

arabian knight said:


> There is a bill floating through to get it up and running. Lets hope it really takes a hold.


It won't. Too much money changing hands the way it is.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

Besides Unions, another job killer is lawsuits. One of the classic cases is Johnson Controls. The short short version of the tale is that they used to make lead acid batteries in the US. The lead causes spontaneous abortions and many types of birth defects so they prevented women of child bearing age from working around the lead. 

So they were sued for gender discrimination because women can't legally be excluded from those jobs. But they feared they would be the cause of a malformed child and sued for same. So the women couldn't work around the lead and they couldn't be prevented from working around the lead. Johnson Controls solved the conundrum by moving the plant outside the US and eliminating US jobs.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Companies have products made overseas, but it is just plain cheaper, to do so, not just because of taxes, or even lawsuits.

Tell the Chinese (or whoever) what you want and agree on price, quality, shipping and other terms.

The items show up at your warehouse, for you to resell.

Unfortunately, It almost makes no business sense any more, to build and operate a factory here, in the U.S., in reality.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

where I want to said:


> Nonsense. I can remember pulling into an auto dealer lot to get a repair and being at the end of a giant line of new cars waiting for it to open with things like handles that fell off because no screw was put on or pieces of the car that fell off while driving because they hadn't even been fastened.
> There used to be quite a bit of talk about the hoping you did not get a "Monday" assembled new car as that was supposed to be when auto workers showed up with hangovers and lots of mistakes were made.
> There was lots of blame to go around- unions included. I remember saying back then that I hoped to someday earn what a starting janitor made at Ford.


A lot of the issues with cars falling apart noways is also due to MCR (material cost reduction) measures. Hidden things like adhesives and spray polymer coatings on plastics within the cars that prevent items from squeaking, and vibrating loose are sometimes eliminated to save $. This is why we see so many new cars falling apart 6 months after purchase - most people have no idea how many of these applications may have been eliminated from their car during production, causing issues down the road.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

so, how much is enough?


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

I spoke last year with one of the guys who filled my slot when I left industry and he told me the jobs on one of our manufacturing lines I advised my boss to move overseas because our in house labor was sandbagging production on it after the overtime requirement had ended and it could be done offshore at 75% of base production costs moved back stateside after the offshore costs rose above the costs the overtime sandbag lines caused in 2001 triggering the need to go offshore.

He told me that the jobs were returned state side in 2007 and 200 more were added since to profitably meet requirements of the current generation of product orders.

Offshoring is nothing personal. It is just a business option. When it is not the most economical option it isn't used or gets reversed.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Haven said:


> A lot of the issues with cars falling apart noways is also due to MCR (material cost reduction) measures. Hidden things like adhesives and spray polymer coatings on plastics within the cars that prevent items from squeaking, and vibrating loose are sometimes eliminated to save $. This is why we see so many new cars falling apart 6 months after purchase - most people have no idea how many of these applications may have been eliminated from their car during production, causing issues down the road.


Are you kidding? Have you looked at used cars? There are a huge number of cars out there with 100K+ miles on them with $5K and up price tags on them. Why? Because today you can expect even the cheapest car to reach 250K miles in you do even the most basic maintenance on it.

Back in the 70s once a car had 75K miles on it you were looking at having to rebuild the engine and do some major body work in the next six months or so.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

One other very important reason companies move offshore is the response time.
In other countries a company can say they need 500 people to work for 3 weeks. The next morning they are there working. When the job is completed they are gone.
Try that in the U.S.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Haven said:


> A lot of the issues with cars falling apart noways is also due to MCR (material cost reduction) measures. Hidden things like adhesives and spray polymer coatings on plastics within the cars that prevent items from squeaking, and vibrating loose are sometimes eliminated to save $. This is why we see so many new cars falling apart 6 months after purchase - most people have no idea how many of these applications may have been eliminated from their car during production, causing issues down the road.


NOW DAYS?
Now days the cars are WAY better then back in the terrible 70's.
Have you looked at used car lots lately. The Average Mileage is 150K and some are now sitting on lots with 200K on them.
The reason being are people HAVE to drive them as long as they dare before buying new.
I have a PU that has 300K on it. My friends are driving two Minivans for their vending repair routes that are over 300K and still driving all over the State of WI and into MN. Without any fear of a break down.
My car that I drive everyday has 170K and still running like new and still getting 30 to 31 MPG. a '94 Buick.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

I didn't say anything about mileage. Not sure why you guys are asking if i'm kidding about mileage and engine life? Reread my post, I was talking about materials that primarily hold interior fixtures and trims together. There have been tons of issues with newer domestic vehicles "falling apart" on the inside in recent years.


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## roberte (Nov 8, 2009)

Might want to review the numbers:

Household Net Worthless: Poverty Here We Come | Finance


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

I don't care whos idea it was but Clinton was told exactly this would happen if he signed NAFTA.

big rockpile


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

bruce2288 said:


> WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?


Kick all the people who've bought large amounts of imported material out of the country.
Also, we will have to start moving to China for better jobs.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

oth47 said:


> I wonder why someone doesn't contact the ceo's of companies that have moved overseas and see what it would take to bring them back?That's what I'd do as president..


It really is simple... make America a business friendly place again. 

You attract more flies with honey than vinegar. You increase taxes on bad behaviors and lower them on good behaviors. Want business? Eliminate taxes on them completely and see what happens. Eliminate the multiple layers of bureaucracy that regulates the minutae of every business... and reindoctrinate American's to the concept of the work ethic.

Also, completely eliminate welfare, and everyone that's physically able will soon find work of some sort.

Also, I believe the Romney actually 'knows' what ceo's know, and what it'd take to get them back. Make it profitable to exist here, and they'll be back. 

Oh, and forget about Unions... a major reason anyone that could leave, left.


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## WV Farm girl (Nov 26, 2011)

This is my opinion. Protective Tariffs. We cannot produce goods as cheap as China or India. Plain and simple. Those people will work for $1 an hour. Americans won't/can't. So put some tariffs in place to help balance out the prices. 
Lets start manufacturing some stuff! Everyone uses silverware but there is only 1 US manufacturer! Why? How does that make sense?!
Unions are job killers. They drive up wages and decrease productivity. At least that is what I have seen from the unions with whom I have dealt.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Haven said:


> I didn't say anything about mileage. Not sure why you guys are asking if i'm kidding about mileage and engine life? Reread my post, I was talking about materials that primarily hold interior fixtures and trims together. There have been tons of issues with newer domestic vehicles "falling apart" on the inside in recent years.


Quite the opposite, IME, especially with American brand cars.

I remember the rolling piles of trash, from the 1970's vividly. Nite-and-day different now, at least what I have recently ridden in.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

texican said:


> It really is simple... make America a business friendly place again.
> 
> You attract more flies with honey than vinegar. You increase taxes on bad behaviors and lower them on good behaviors. Want business? Eliminate taxes on them completely and see what happens. Eliminate the multiple layers of bureaucracy that regulates the minutae of every business... and reindoctrinate American's to the concept of the work ethic.
> 
> ...


Yes... And while we're at it, why don't we just deregulate everything and let them start dumping [more] toxic pollution into the waterways, let's allow unlimited CO2 emissions, and let's allow sweatshops to take over again. Our economy will boom! And then we will have nothing left after we trash it all!


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

texican said:


> It really is simple... make America a business friendly place again.
> 
> You attract more flies with honey than vinegar. You increase taxes on bad behaviors and lower them on good behaviors. Want business? Eliminate taxes on them completely and see what happens. Eliminate the multiple layers of bureaucracy that regulates the minutae of every business... and reindoctrinate American's to the concept of the work ethic.
> 
> ...


Yes so true. Roll back a few regulations and this country would start working again. Too many dumb things have been brought upon companies these days there is now wonder why some are getting the heck out of Dodge.
And we would still have clean air clean water and clean planet to liv eon. But the power grab that the epa is on is way out of control.


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

Another issue with US labor is lack of willingness to actually do any hard physical work. There are very few people willing to do the hard dirty work -- they think they are too good to get their hands dirty. Welfare makes it possible for them to get away with that attitude.

I have my own personal simplicity in place. I may have to buy stuff made in China, but I'll but it at a garage sale, thrift shop or Goodwill so my dollars will not go to China. I get my $60 jeans for $4.50. About the only new clothing we buy are shoes -- SAS USA made and underwear which is from China or India or some other far eastern country. I can't recall finding any USA made underwear in many years.

I can't solve the world's problems or the USA's problems but I can do my part not to contribute to them. When we can no longer afford to buy China's and India's products, they are going to be in a world of hurt.


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## jaredI (Aug 6, 2011)

Heritagefarm said:


> Yes... And while we're at it, why don't we just deregulate everything and let them start dumping [more] toxic pollution into the waterways, let's allow unlimited CO2 emissions, and let's allow sweatshops to take over again. Our economy will boom! And then we will have nothing left after we trash it all!


 You are so out of touch with reality here. I haven't heard anyone suggest we dump all regulations. However regulations, upon regulations upon regulations upon regulations upon regulations upon regulations upon regulations is a bunch of bunk.


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## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

I spent 50 years in manufacturing here in the U.S.. I also spent 10 years in Eastern Europe and the better part of seven years in China. What in my opinion drove U.S. manufacturing offshore was OSHA, EPA, NLRB,ADA, etc, etc, etc, all basically good ideas but put into application by idiots. That on top of unions and the entitlement attitude of the American worker killed manufacturing here. The perception of and the broad brush used to paint Chinese workers ability and conditions they work under for the most part are wrong. In 1965 I was married with a kid, working in a factory at $1.05 an hour and happy as a dung beetle with a big turd ball. I watched with amazement and sadness as manufacturing slowly deteriorated. The optimist that thinks this country can regain the manufacturing position it once had in the world is sadly mistaken.

"O"


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I spent 50 years in manufacturing here in the U.S.. I also spent 10 years in Eastern Europe and the better part of seven years in China. What in my opinion drove U.S. manufacturing offshore was OSHA, EPA, NLRB,ADA, etc, etc, etc, all basically good ideas but put into application by idiots.


I agree that excessive regulations are part of the problem, but even if you did away with them, you'd still be left with the fact that the average hourly wage of an American factory worker is $23.22, versus $1.36 in China.

Under the current system, we'll be competitive only when we're willing to work -- and live -- like people in the Third World.

Is that really what you want?


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## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> I agree that excessive regulations are part of the problem, but even if you did away with them, you'd still be left with the fact that the average hourly wage of an American factory worker is $23.22, versus $1.36 in China.


The cost of living in China is on par with the wages paid there. My #1 son is a teacher there, working for the standard wage and he lives as good as he could in the U.S.

The regulations in most cases were good ideas, they just ran amock in their application.

"O"


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## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> I agree that excessive regulations are part of the problem, but even if you did away with them, you'd still be left with the fact that the average hourly wage of an American factory worker is $23.22, versus $1.36 in China.
> 
> Under the current system, we'll be competitive only when we're willing to work -- and live -- like people in the Third World.
> 
> Is that really what you want?


The hourly labor cost in Germany is $60.00+ an hour and we still import a lot of product from there.

"O"


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

jaredI said:


> You are so out of touch with reality here. I haven't heard anyone suggest we dump all regulations. However regulations, upon regulations upon regulations upon regulations upon regulations upon regulations upon regulations is a bunch of bunk.


I am aware that we have too many regulations. I am also aware that many of them are important.


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## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

Heritagefarm said:


> I am aware that we have too many regulations. I am also aware that many of them are important.


A regulation that applies to all manufacturers, from Boeing Aircraft to a two man wood shop, is a bad regulation. That covers most regulations.

"O"


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

English Oliver said:


> A regulation that applies to all manufacturers, from Boeing Aircraft to a two man wood shop, is a bad regulation. That covers most regulations.
> 
> "O"


I agree. One Size Fits All doesn't work. Regulations need to be designed to take into account discrepancies such as this. However, we then get into the argument of who gets which end of the regulation...


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## English Oliver (Jul 2, 2008)

Heritagefarm said:


> I agree. One Size Fits All doesn't work. Regulations need to be designed to take into account discrepancies such as this. However, we then get into the argument of who gets which end of the regulation...


There was a small shop on the North side of Chicago that repaired musical instruments. Although 99% of the finish spraying they did was some touch up with an airbrush they decided to put in a spray booth to exhaust the fumes. Upon the installation they became subject to regulations that were the same as a factory that used tanker loads of finish chemicals. It would have taken 1 1/2 people to do all the paperwork that was required with the regulations. To remove the spray booth wasn't an option since they were in the spotlight, they would have had to cease all types of finish application, even with a paintbrush. The solution to the problem, the owner said the heck with it and shut the operation down. Five people unemployed, several that had been there over 20 years for using less than a gallon of finish material per month.

"O"


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

You know, some of it is mindset. I mean, at one time, people were willing to pay quite a bit more for a quality-built American car, or a "Made in America" pair of jeans. They knew the product would be real quality and would last. Now, everything is chinese disposables. Cars don't last, jeans are thin and cruddy, and household appliances aren't worth repairing anymore. We've gotten away from the value for the buck mentality. Now, we want cheap, we want half price, even if it means we have to replace it earlier, essentially paying double anyway.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

English Oliver said:


> The hourly labor cost in Germany is $60.00+ an hour and we still import a lot of product from there.
> 
> "O"


The article from which I derived the earlier wage figures also pegs the average hourly wage in Germany at $25.80, slightly higher than in the U.S.

Average Cost Of A Factory Worker In The U.S., China And Germany [INFOGRAPHIC]


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> The article from which I derived the earlier wage figures also pegs the average hourly wage in Germany at $25.80, slightly higher than in the U.S.


That's just their *wages*, not the total "cost".
Overall, it's just one more *meaningless* comparison of different cultures


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Actually, if you go to the link, you'll see it also charts the average cost of health insurance and other benefits.

Switching gears ... our problem is not so much that workers in China are so much more competitive on a cost basis; it's that we're not fully exploiting them. Yes, we get some advantages from their $1.36-an-hour labor; for instance, $14 blue jeans at Wal-Mart. But we're doing a poor job of recapturing some of that $1.36. Because they live halfway around the globe, we're not selling them haircuts and drycleaning and coffins! 

We need to put our sweatshops back on U.S. soil, where we can take full advantage of their workers.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's just their *wages*, not the total "cost".
> Overall, it's just one more *meaningless* comparison of different cultures


Take a look at the bottom of the page where it says salaries and finances.
Cost Of Living Comparison Between Germany And United States


This is the home page for doing cost of living comparisons between most countries: Cost Of Living Comparison Between Two Countries

.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

thequeensblessing said:


> You know, some of it is mindset. I mean, at one time, people were willing to pay quite a bit more for a quality-built American car, or a "Made in America" pair of jeans. They knew the product would be real quality and would last. .


Let's not rewrite history.

America built some of the _worse_ quality vehicles in the world, from the late 1960's through the early 80's.

They literally fell apart and one would be very lucky, to even get 150,000 miles out of one. Plus they were not "cheap" in price, for the time.

American made cars today, have great quality, safety and value, and can easily go 200K+ miles with out major expenses, but whether we will admit it or not, we have the thank the Japanese, for flooding our auto import market, with inexpensive, but rock solid, Hondas, Toyotas and Datsun (Nissan) automobiles.

Japan is the *only* reason we are not driving, one of the "big three" rolling piles of (s)crap, we were stuck, with in the 1970's.

FWIW, not everything that comes from overseas is junk.

Many companies worldwide, now have their products made overseas - to their exact standards, with the results being high quality, but much lower price, goods.


Do Americans really want to sew blue jeans anymore, anyway?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Take a look at the bottom of the page where it says salaries and finances.
> Cost Of Living Comparison Between Germany And United States
> 
> 
> This is the home page for doing cost of living comparisons between most countries: Cost Of Living Comparison Between Two Countries


I saw all that.
It doesn't make these comparisons *less* meaningless.

There are too many OTHER differences to just compare dollar figures.



> Actually, *if you go to the link*, you'll see it also charts the average cost of health insurance and other benefits.


Yes, it does, and you only *posted* WAGES, *as I said*.



> The article from which I derived the earlier wage figures also pegs the average *hourly wage in Germany at $25.80*, slightly higher than in the U.S.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

thequeensblessing said:


> You know, some of it is mindset. I mean, at one time, people were willing to pay quite a bit more for a quality-built American car, or a "Made in America" pair of jeans. They knew the product would be real quality and would last. Now, everything is chinese disposables. Cars don't last, jeans are thin and cruddy, and household appliances aren't worth repairing anymore. We've gotten away from the value for the buck mentality. Now, we want cheap, we want half price, even if it means we have to replace it earlier, essentially paying double anyway.


There is a problem with your logic, well a few actually.

1) I have NOT found things with the "Made in America" label to be any more "real quality" than most things made in China.

2) Say you have two products, "R" and "S". "R" will work fine but only for a year. "S" will work fine for two years. But "S" cost three times as much as "R". Which is the better deal?

3) Say you have two other products, "Q" and "Z". "Q" is rated to operate for 100 hours of use; "Z" is rated for 1,000 hrs of use. "Q" cost $10 and "R" cost $50. But you only need to use the produce for 10 hours a year. Does it make sense for you to buy a 1,000 hour product?


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

watcher said:


> There is a problem with your logic, well a few actually.
> 
> 1) I have NOT found things with the "Made in America" label to be any more "real quality" than most things made in China.
> 
> ...


Everything made in America isn't better - we need only look at our food supply to know that.

The fact is, though, you can sometimes find quality made in America - seldom can you find it with the cheap Chinese goods.

When you find a good quality product Made in America, it has been my experience it is good for more than twice as long. Our American made hoe has already lasted about 10 times as long, actually we've owned it longer, that's just use time. 

I think the 'rating' of something doesn't have anything to do with the quality. If I'm buying something to use only 10 hours a year, I still want a quality product will that will work for those 10 hours and will be working through all those years I need it, if only for 10 hours.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Trixie said:


> Everything made in America isn't better - we need only look at our food supply to know that.
> 
> The fact is, though, you can sometimes find quality made in America - seldom can you find it with the cheap Chinese goods.


I disagree. I can find equality quality goods and the Chinese ones are cheaper. Yeah I can find lower quality goods at lower prices but there are times when as along as the item works once I'm ahead of the game.





Trixie said:


> I think the 'rating' of something doesn't have anything to do with the quality. If I'm buying something to use only 10 hours a year, I still want a quality product will that will work for those 10 hours and will be working through all those years I need it, if only for 10 hours.


Say you are looking to buy a table saw. Do you need to go out and buy a professional quality cabinet maker's saw which is built to be used 10 hrs a day 5 days a week for $2,000 or spend $300 for one which would cut all the wood you will need to cut for the rest of your life? For you is the high quality saw worth over 6 times as much?


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## Jenn (Nov 9, 2004)

Here's my idea: tariff for environmental and labor standards not price. Do not insist Chinese blue jeans cost as much as US or that we add $5-10/pair to their price, insist any blue jeans sold in the US be made in factories where 1-workers are all adults, none forced to work there (no, or only willing prison laborers), get overtime after 40 hours or whtever our laws are, and 2- factory meets all US antipollution standards.

I despise nationalism. I want the same for some CHinese girl across the world that I do for naturelover or tom or watcher above- God Bless the WORLD not just America. So let's try to export to countries we buy stuff from, the benefits AND COSTS of our regulations.

Secondly we ARE living better than we can afford. Batten hatches, move in with your parents, we will not on average live so high on the hog until the whole world starts catching up with us


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Here's my idea: tariff for environmental and labor standards not price. Do not insist Chinese blue jeans cost as much as US or that we add $5-10/pair to their price, insist any blue jeans sold in the US be made in factories where 1-workers are all adults, none forced to work there (no, or only willing prison laborers), get overtime after 40 hours or whtever our laws are, and 2- factory meets all US antipollution standard.


You're a good egg, Jenn, but most people don't give a rip about that Chinese factory worker; they just want the cheapest price.

Look at the history of white phosphorus matches, for example.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

watcher said:


> I disagree. I can find equality quality goods and the Chinese ones are cheaper. Yeah I can find lower quality goods at lower prices but there are times when as along as the item works once I'm ahead of the game.
> 
> Say you are looking to buy a table saw. Do you need to go out and buy a professional quality cabinet maker's saw which is built to be used 10 hrs a day 5 days a week for $2,000 or spend $300 for one which would cut all the wood you will need to cut for the rest of your life? For you is the high quality saw worth over 6 times as much?




I don't know too many things I buy with the thought I don't want it to work just once - but I'd have to give that some thought.

Again, it is a totally different matter as to whether a product is made to do light work or heavy work. It's apples and oranges.


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