# Update on Our Power System Setup & Question about 6v Batteries



## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

*Hello Again Everyone*








Wow, I didn't realize until today how long it had been since I had last posted here on HST. Been *REALLY* busy this past year, working almost everyday on the property and other needful preparations.

I have some questions about deep cycle batteries, but I also want to post an update on our power system and how these batteries will be used. 

The last thread I had posted about a year ago, was about setting up a solar-wind power system. We had ordered an inverter which was on back order at that time, but we changed our minds in the direction we had started to go and canceled that order. 

Since then, we re-assessed about what our power *needs* really are, and what we actually need to have. 

The main component we need electrical power for is our well. It is 450ft deep, with the pump sitting at 400ft, the static water level around 320ft. This is our only clean water source, so we have to have this working. Everything else, we can honestly get by without if need be. 
I looked at hand pumps and such, but nearly all had a limit of 250 feet *At Most*. And even then, their water output was low. Only one of them could even begin to think about using at the depths our well is at. But it was a very large unit, had a good expense attached to it, and also meant redoing the well pump system as well. Solar pump systems was the same, also requiring redoing the well pump system, replacing it with a solar pump and such. 

I didn't really like either of these options, but kept them on the back burner for a while if I would have had to go that route. 

After more thought and research, I came up with a solution that fit what we wanted to do here. To fill the primary need of running our well, we purchased a 1960 Onan 15kw single phase generator. 

The reason we decided on an older generator like this verses a new "modern" generator, was the electronics. All new generators have a lot of computerized electronics, circuits, and sensors. If any one of these components were to go bad for whatever reason, the generator won't work. With the older generators, what little electronics they had, they were mechanical. So no computers, no circuit boards. All safety "sensors" such as high temperature switch, are mechanical 'murphy' style safety switches. 

With being this type of generator, its like my '86 chevy truck, if something goes wrong, I can usually fix it. And I always keep some extra parts on hand, if the need should arise. What little electronics are on it, are mechanical in nature, and are not like the sensitive modern electronics. 

This generator was in overall good shape, as it hadn't been used a lot. It was in running order, but the maintenance had been neglected for quite a while. In the last year, I have went through it inside and out to get it back up full complete running order. Most of which was rewiring the control box, which had been neglected and messed with by people who didn't know _(or care?)_ what they were doing. As the old style mechanical relays went bad or whatever, whoever was using it just switched it to "manual" so as to bypass these relays and such. Also the automatic voltage regulator wasn't working, and I had to find the parts to repair and rebuild it myself. It took months of tracing down wires, issues, and working on these components, replacing the large mechanical relays _(which replacements could no longer be found)_ with modern "automotive" style heavy duty mechanical-contact plug-in relays, among other things. But I now have everything functioning as it should. Just in case, I do have plenty of extra relays on hand, among a few other parts, if I need them. But if something were to happen to these 'electronics', since I did *Not* "update" the voltage regulator to a "modern computerized design", I can still switch it back to "manual" and it will run and generate power, it would only require someone watching and adjusting the rheostat power regulator control to make sure the voltage doesn't go to low or to high. 

We also went through the engine side as well, which was in good shape over all, except for the starter which had some issues. I _(nor anyone I talked to) _ could not find a replacement starter that would fit correctly, But I was able to find a shop which replaced the solenoid with a new one, and went through the starter itself replacing the bearings and all other wear items. It now works perfectly. If that failed, this generator does have a hand crank in the front, and isn't to hard to start that way _(as I have tested it out several times)_, even when cold. 
I also did all other maintenance on the engine, replacing all wear items, fluids, filters, plugs, plug wires, etc. I did convert the distributor to an electronic ignition for stronger spark and better efficiency, but I also have new parts to convert it back to points if need be.
So, we have a Good reliable generator that can run our well, and anything else we need. We also have a smaller back up generator that would run the well by itself too. 

*BUT*... *what to do about fuel?* Can't store enough gasoline... So we have to make our own fuel. With that in mind, during this same time period, My Father and I also built a Wood Gasifier. I had done a lot of research on gasifiers for more than a year before we even moved here, and did more research after we had moved here. The one we built was what I thought was the best design for what we needed. This was one of the reasons we decided to go the generator route. As with a Wood Gasifier, we can produce the fuel needed to run the generator by processing wood that grows on our property. I still have to do some load testing, but using Woods Gas the generator should be able to output at least around 10kw up to around 12kw. 
The gasoline system is also still in place on the generator, as there was no actual modification to the generator itself except adding a Wood Gas intake connected to the air intake on the carb. Oh, and the automatic choke has to be disconnected when using Wood Gas, which takes about 1 minuet to do. In any case, its now a 'dual fuel' generator. So we can still run it on gasoline at the full 15kw output if we wanted to.

Now, obviously we don't want to run the generator all the time just to have water. So water storage was a need. After searching on craigslist, we now have two - 275 gallon water tanks plumbed together, giving us 550 gallons of storage. In their former life these tanks were food grade tote tanks used to transport cooking oil to a food production factory. Anyone needing water tanks, I would highly recommend looking into these, as they are a "one time use" waste container product for these factories, and can usually be picked up cheap compared to water storage tanks which are usually around $1 a gallon. Got these for about $60 each, Very Clean and Look New. So for $120 we got 550 gallons of water storage capacity. When looking for these tanks, just be careful that you make sure they were only used for food grade stuff though and not chemicals or something. 

When we want to fill these tanks, while having grid-power or running the generator, we have the well pump setup on a double throw power switch. Flip the switch, and well pump kicks on, brings the water in through a 35 micron charcoal filter (we have good water, but still wanted to have a good filter), then into these tanks. _(flip the power switch the other way and open one valve and close another, and the well pump fills the pressure tank directly and operates off of the pressure switch like a "normal" house setup)_ 

On the "out" line of these storage tanks, the water line runs from these tanks into a 10 micron Dankoff filter and then to a Dankoff 2920 Standard Speed 12v Booster Pump. This pump pressurizes a 36 gallon pressure _(bladder)_ tank. _(I now wish I had went a little larger on this pressure tank so the pump didn't cycle quite as often, but it'll work fine)._ And the pressure tank then in turn feeds all the plumbing. 
So we now have pressurized water without needing grid-power or a generator having to be turned on everytime the bladder tank gets low. We only need to power the well pump when the 550 gallon storage tanks get low.

With this setup, if we had to, we could get by on running the generator for 1 hour every few days to top off the storage tanks. Of course I can run it more often without problem, just have to have enough dry wood processed and ready to run the wood gasifier. 

*That was my Update, now I have some questions: *
The Dankoff 12v Booster Pump will run off of Two Interstate "Golf Cart" Batteries - # GC2-XHD-UT (link here). These batteries are of course 6 volts each, wired in series to make 12 volts total. I just got these batteries, but haven't yet connected them. The 12v Booster Pump will be the Only thing using these batteries. 

I do not yet know what the actual amp usage of the pump is, as I have not yet ran it to do the testing, but should be able to do so soon. However, on its label it states 25amps max, and that is also its fuse rating as well. So, I'm not 100% sure how long I can go between charges using these two batteries.

What I need to know is *what is the best/correct way to charge these "golf cart" deep cycle batteries?* I've seen a lot of conflicting information. :shrug:

Some sites say you should slow charge them. This seems to make sense to me, as with solar power system, I wouldn't think that the battery bank would be "fast" charged really would it? 
On the other hand, others say that "slow" charging will damage them, and that they need to be "fast" charged. *But what is "fast"? What is "slow"?* 

I have seen on still yet other sites, that the amp rate of the charge going into the batteries should be 10% of the Amp Hour rating. So 10% of 232 amp hours means the charger should put out 23.2 amps? 

Also some sites say it doesn't matter what kind of charger you use. 
While others say you have to have a 'deep cycle' charger, and that a automotive charger will kill them after a short time. 

Another issue I've seen is the depth of discharge. Some sites say you should only discharge between 10-20% before recharging. Others say that will damage the battery, and that you should discharge to 50% before recharging. 
To me discharging to 50% makes more sense, as all other smaller rechargeable batteries (minus lithium-ion) if you don't discharge them "fully", before recharging, they get a 'memory' and their run time get shorter and shorter. 
But I also understand that you don't want to discharge them to low either. With that said, I need some type of battery monitor which gives the state of charge... 

Depending upon the variables above, especially on how fast these batteries can be charged safely & repeatedly, without damaging them, will depend on what I can use to charge them. Right now with grid power, obviously the correct '110v' battery charger would suffice. 
If they can be charged in a couple hours time, then that same charger could be used when the generator is running. 
But if they are to be slow charged over 3-12+ hours, then another means to charge them off-grid will be required. 

So this is what I am currently trying to understand, to know how I have to proceed from here. 

I've never used a true deep cycle battery before, so with all this conflicting info, I wanted to get some input from you guys who actually use these in your systems. I know my useage is probably far different than most of yours, as I'm sure most of you use these for a solar system battery banks, which of course uses different charging methods and also use more batteries as well. *But any help would be greatly appreciated. *
*~Thanks!*

View attachment 50876


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Cool on the generator - I remember a slightly larger fixed mount one used at the radio station where my dad was chief engineer. Onan is a solid generator. I'm jealous of your gasifier setup. Have thought about those for years since seeing the one at Mother Earth Eco-village.

Batteries. 50% is at the border between rechargeable and destruction. Roughly 20% should be fine. The source for a LOT of good information is the first three years of Homepower Magazine, where they were doing a lot of on-site testing of basics.

Charging gets broken out into the bulk charge at somewhat high amperage, then as the internal resistance kicks in the battery will slow down in accepting a charge and nominally around 2 amps will go in for a few hours until all that is left is the float charge. You can bulk charge with a generator, but then solar with a charge controller is better suited for the next stage.


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

double post


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Thanks for the reply Harry, Yes I like Onan gensets too. The older one's anyway. Searched a while to find this one, it had been used by Bell co. as a backup unit, I bought it from a farmer, who's dad had bought it and used it on the farm. Don't know if he bought it from bell or someone in between who had it. Took a while to get it sorted out, but it works great now. 

The gasifier is a design from Ben Peterson, who founded Victory Gasworks back around 2007. Since then he went into working on "grid" size gasifiers that can run an entire community, and stopped making the smaller one. So he released a book with a detailed set of plans for a "smaller" gasifiers. After a couple years of research, this was the plans I settled on to build this unit. I changed a few small things, added a few things, but overall its pretty much to the specs. If interested, you can find more info on his website http://www.woodgasifierplans.com/

If I were to build another Wood Gasifier, I would have to have several more tools, as I basically built this one with an angle grinder, a small lincoln 3200HD mig welder using flux wire, a cheap drill press, and a set of Smith propane-oxy torches that we bought while working on this. Which the torches helped for somethings, like cutting 1/4" thick circle plates, but they were a real pain to try to cut 1/8" or thinner, even using the correct tips. I'm not good with torches though... 

If I were to build the exact same unit, A *MUST have* would be a good plasma cutter. As during the several months I spent building this unit, I bought more than 200+ cutting discs for my milwaukee angle grinder, and I almost wore my grinder out to boot :doh: . Cutting rings and circles uses a lot of disc, let alone the many other straight cuts, especially on 1/8". At $2 to $3.50 per disc_ (different quality)_, that money would have went a long way on a Hypertherm plasma cutter, let alone the* time* that could be saved. 
Another Must have would be a simple metal cut off saw for making straight-square cuts on smaller pieces of stock. A bigger MIG welder using welding gas is really needed to, as my welder was honestly to small for this job, and the flux wire was a pain when needing to make gas tight welds. 

If I was to build a 2nd Gasifer, I would change the design quite a bit, not so much the jets, or the grate system. But changes like a larger fuel hopper and a few other things. But you can only do so much with using 100lb propane tanks as your base. 
So I would also need a good metal roller to roll at least 48" wide x 1/8" thick steel, instead of using pre-made tanks. A good metal roller would make a lot of things easier, and you don't have tank welds in the way where you don't want them either. 

I actually built a small roller while building this unit, to be able to roll the *many* 1/2" to 3" wide rings and such pieces out of flatbar. I ended up having to roll some larger pieces than I had intended with it too, but 14" wide x 1/8" thick was the absolute max it would roll, and it was pretty tough and too tight of a fit, had a lot of issues feeding it through. But it got the job done. 

_*Anyway...*  didn't mean to run on._

Ok, so 20% is the normal limit for a deep cycle battery. Well, that's less than what I thought it would be. Meaning it has to be charged more often. Have to find a calculator or something to try to figure out how long this pump can run on this 20%.

I can use a grid-powered charger for the time being. I've been looking into them, not sure what is a good one. Don't need something to 'fancy' or whatever, only got these two batteries. Just need a solid unit. Could also use this same charger with the generator too when its running. 

*So can these deep cycle batteries be charged from start to finish only using a trickle charger? *

I'm looking into the possibility of building a small steam engine to run some type of DC generator head, such as a PMG. Or using a Permanent Magnet Motor and installing a blocking diode in the line, and turning it with the engine to generate enough DC power for a charging system. 
In anycase, if I can go this route, I don't have a machine shop _(as noted in the above paragraphs)_ so I would have to use some type of piston motor or a compressor pump as the "engine". 

Still looking into this, not sure what I'll end up doing. But I want someway of being able to charge these batteries without grid power, and also with having to run the generator just for this.

I know I could probably get a few solar panels, but then they need a charge controller, and all the other stuff which is what I first consider for a power system a year or so ago. And even for this, I really don't want to go that route either for a battery charger.

Have to see what I can figure out. 
*~Thanks! *


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Just a thought - it is a long way around the barn, but lithium batteries are a lot more forgiving of short charge times than lead acid. If you had a small bank of lithium batteries that could be charged by the generator to a voltage ABOVE what the lead-acids would take, there are power supply chips that provide regulated voltage. That means the charged lithium batteries could come into play AFTER the generator has done the bulk charge and been shut down, doing the finishing charge on the lead-acid.

I'm positive it would work in theory, but the costs could be prohibitive. Rather than fool with steam, why not just store your woodgas in a silage bag for later use? Methane from biogas is commonly stored in gasometers or bag structures.


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Harry Chickpea said:


> Just a thought - it is a long way around the barn, but lithium batteries are a lot more forgiving of short charge times than lead acid. If you had a small bank of lithium batteries that could be charged by the generator to a voltage ABOVE what the lead-acids would take, there are power supply chips that provide regulated voltage. That means the charged lithium batteries could come into play AFTER the generator has done the bulk charge and been shut down, doing the finishing charge on the lead-acid.
> 
> I'm positive it would work in theory, but the costs could be prohibitive.


Yeah, it could work, I actually gave a little thought to using lithium batteries to run the pump, as lithium are great batteries.... so long as you catch them on fire... :whistlin: _(dont ask)_

Costs would be prohibitive though for sure.



Harry Chickpea said:


> Rather than fool with steam, why not just store your woodgas in a silage bag for later use? Methane from biogas is commonly stored in gasometers or bag structures.



Hummm....* Now you got me thinking* :spinsmiley:

I hadn't thought about storing gas for a quite a while now. 
....although I never really liked the bag idea.

However *(and I know many people are against this)* I have seen several people compress woodgas into propane tanks. I know if oxygen is introduced you could have a problem. But there has to be a way to do this safely. As I stated, I've seen several people do this already, at least one of them I believe has enough understanding and technical knowhow that I'm confident he actually knew what he was doing and how to do it safely. 

And yes, _*(before someone else asks)*_ I know that woodgas obviously doesn't "liquify" at pressure like propane does. 

And yes, like another Wood Gas Info site stated, that a 100 gallon tank would only hold enough gas to run a car 2 miles... but I'm not trying to run a car. I have a small Honda EU1000i generator which I'm sure would run quite a while on that amount of gas. Which I could then use to run a charger.

So, with that said, I think you might have put me onto the right train of thought. 
As if it is to be done, storing woodgas for later use should be the best option to go with. 

Hey, it has to be a whole lot easier than building a steam engine...
_*.....Although I did have some ideas I might still pursue*_ 

*Thanks Harry for the reply and ideas! *


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

If you look at some of the pics from WWII in Europe, some of the busses had big bags of gas on the roof that were used to fuel the busses. It is actually a fairly elegant solution if you have space. No energy or fuel lost in compression, certainly easy to tell if your tank is full or empty, a leak isn't an explosion hazard if outdoors.

You might have a volume of 20 ft3 in a 100 gal tank. Such a tank can safely go to about 200PSI somewhere around 13 extra atmospheres = 260 cu ft of gas storage - 1/4 of what a 10' x 10' x 10' bag can store with a lot less hassle.


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

I looked into wood gas storage some time ago, but hadn't thought about it again really until your post earlier. And in the past few hours, I went back and looked into some of the info I had on it. 
Yeah, you're right. Compressing wood gas is a waste of time. Not only would I have to have a compressor _(which has to run on wood gas or off of the generator power)_ to do it, but even at that a tank won't last very long. I'll continue to give the bagged gas some thought. Space is the biggest thing. And where to put it. Wouldn't really want it outside... but I wouldn't want it in my barn either. 

Yeah, I've seen a lot photos of busses and cars with bagged gas before. I've also seen cars and trucks which came from the factory with gasifiers built into them. Watched a video of an older guy, who still had an original wood gas 2 ton truck, and it all worked perfectly. He fired it up, stoked the wood, and after a few minuets took off down the road. 

Its something else how much knowledge has been lost *(erased, removed, hidden, etc)* in just a couple generations. You tell most people today you can run an engine off wood, they almost automatically reply with _"you're crazy"_ or _"your tin foil hats on to tight" _kind of stuff. And its not just wood gas, but knowledge in general. Its just sad really...

*~Thanks for the Replies*


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

The people who automatically reply with "you're crazy" or "your tin foil hats on to tight", are the ones who go into a "Chicken Little Mode" when their iPhone fails. Hand them some salt and move along


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

:heh: You are correct Steve
And yes the only thing a person can do is just move on.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

"Space is the biggest thing. And where to put it. Wouldn't really want it outside... but I wouldn't want it in my barn either." 

Four 10' sections of cedar fence in a square. seam together a 10' x 60' roll of 6 mil black construction poly, place in fenced area. Done.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I've got a couple questions before I comment...
Are the TUBS (These aren't 'Tanks') under pressure?
It's my understanding the Tubs are standing storage, vented to atomosphere,
And not a pressurized part of the system, is that correct?

Burst pressure on those Tubs are like 5 PSI...

.....

I see a solid 4x4 post standing at the corner of the near tub in the picture,
But I can't see what's above them... Do you have enough space for the tubs to be lifted (Racked) higher up so gravity can do some of your work?
Maybe a second set of tubs underneath to double you storage?


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Hi Jeep Hammer, are you talking about the Water Storage Tanks? 
The "technical" name for them is an IBC Tank, sometimes also seen listed as a IBC Tote. 
Like the one seen HERE

We bought these from a small company who gets them from food production factories. When these factories buy oil, liquid sugar, corn syrup, etc, it comes in these 275 gallon tanks. Once they use the product, these tanks are then a 'waste' product to them. So they will sell them to who ever to get them out of their way. We bought two of these for $60 each. Far cheaper than a brand new one, and far cheaper than regular food grade water storage tanks of equal size. 

*To answer your question:* no they're not under any pressure and only vent to atmosphere just as you stated. The well pump only fills these tanks, which we have to monitor and flip the switch off when they're full. Then at the bottom of these tanks is the "out" valve which is connected to our 12v pump. This pump then in turn takes the water and pressurizes the pressure (bladder) tank. At which point of course, it sends pressurized water to all the plumbing.

Is this what you were referring to? Or was it something else??


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

After thinking about this for a day now. I've come back to the same decision I made sometime ago, I don't want to store wood gas... even in bags. 

What we have decided to do, is to see if we can modify our Honda EU2000i generator, and connect it straight to our wood gasifier. This gasifier is much larger than would be needed for a generator of this size. However, I'm going to test it to see if this smaller genset is able to keep the gasifier going. If needed, I am able to close off half of my 8 air jets inside the gasifier, plugging every other one, which does help to run smaller engines. 
I'm not sure it will work, but going to try it anyway. If it doesn't work, I may just build another small gasifier to run this EU2000i. 
In either case, I want to use this small generator _(when grid power isn't available) _as a means to run a deep cycle battery charger every other day (or when needed) for how ever many hours it takes.

Will update in a few days or so, when I get the initial results


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Anyone know if* Noco Genius* battery smart chargers are actually a good brand/good product? 
I saw them recommended on a few websites... but you know how that goes, most sites get kick backs and such. 

Just wondered if anyone had used any of their models.
Went on their website, and they showed several for deep cycle batteries. 

They have a G7200 model, which is 7.2 amps max, says it rated for 230 ah batteries... mine is 232 ah, not sure if that extra 2 ah matters or not. 

They also have a G15000 model, which is 15 amps max, and is rated to 400 ah. 

Both are on amazon - LINK 

*Any thoughts or input would be appreciated, 
~Thanks*


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

OK. It's your stuff, you can call it anything you want to...

DOT, That's Federal Department Of Transportation, 
Lists those as 'Totes', 'Tubs', 'Barrels' or 'Gay Lords'.
ZERO pressure rating, must withstand 5 PSI for expansion of product.

DOT lists 'Tanks' as pressure rated containment vessels above 5 PSI.

Sorry to bother you, hope you find solutions & answers.


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Sorry, some how I missed seeing your questions earlier:



JeepHammer said:


> I see a solid 4x4 post standing at the corner of the near tub in the picture,
> But I can't see what's above them... Do you have enough space for the tubs to be lifted (Racked) higher up so gravity can do some of your work?
> Maybe a second set of tubs underneath to double you storage?



There is another heavy duty rack shelf above them, it used to be in a boat warehouse. Just extra storage at the moment. 
Could I add a 2nd set of tanks? Yeah I could probably make the room and stack them. But 500 gallon is really all I needed to store at one time. 

I originally thought about dropping that shelf a bit and putting the tanks up there, so that I would have a little more gravity flow just like you said. But decided not to, as I only need enough gravity force to get water up the 12v pump for the initial prime. After that, the check valves will hold the water there. Plus 500 gallons of water weighs 4000 lbs, that shelf was rated for 5000 lbs... but.... I don't really want take a chance with the shelf breaking or whatever, especially if we had an earthquake _(new madrid fault zone approx 125-150 miles east of us)_ or if something else happened. 

The way its currently setup, the bottom of my pump _(where the water inlet & outlets are) _is approx at the half mark to the tanks. So as long as I fill the tanks near full, the water will automatically fill the lines and prime the pump by itself for the initial prime, and like I said before, the check valves will hold it from there forward, so long as the storage tanks aren't run empty. 
If the pump was higher than the tanks_ (or whatever water source)_ then I would have had to have added a "Y" into the line with a cap, where I could pour water to fill the line and prime the pump manually until it held the water with the check valves. This is why I tried to keep the pump down lower though, so I wouldn't have to prime the pump manually, just a little easier, especially if someone else had to do it.

*~Thanks*


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Think your plans not to bad, but I do think you could improve it.

Rather then the water storage, you need a bigger battery bank.

I'd size it to 1/3 of your actual needs.

then something like this 

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/HLP-...2259571428.html?spm=2114.01020208.8.25.sgtuOP

the logic being you run you genset part of the day when you have heavy loads, washer,dryer,water heater,opening closing fridge/freezer, using tools...
It in turn is also charging your bank. 
Then you can switch over to the Inverter when power needs are not heavy.

Then you have best of both worlds and no need to run the generator 24/7

I like that model from what I have seen, a plus is the gen start relay.
I know your not big on electronics.

I may have missed it but how are you processing your wood for the gassifier?
Thats the biggest issue with a gassifier in most peoples opinons.

I have plans on building a firewood processor, and a Industrial type shredder.
The shredder will be fire log size.

As a Side note if you install a Automatic Transfer switch, and wire it in reverse so the Gen/Inverter as Grid, and the grid as Backup, if your set up fails your grid power will kick on automatically.

I am aiming for a 45-60kw genset, need to run my shop plus house.
Being in the frigid north I want to work in a coheat system as well.
Basically a big tank in the middle of a large insulated thermal mass.
Coolent from the engine directly exchanging with the tank. Piping to run the wood gas through the thermal mass, I also intend to install a fire box along rocket stove design to help supplement, with the flue wrapping around the tank, the engine exhaust will be run to the flue as well. I may install a water coil in the fire box? 

The biggest issue with the design process is I want to automate the gassifier, been looking into aurdino for that.

I was aware of compressing wood gas, and after reading this I think it would be great as a source of fuel to auto light the gassifier.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

@ Warren, have you considered the possibility of Biogas from Compost ? A good digester will create a lot of gas, storage can be handled in varied ways and it can be compressed as it is Methane (Natural Gas is 95% Methane). 

Maybe something worth pondering AND it's a heck of a lot less work than feeding a gasifier.


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## ToddT58 (Dec 22, 2014)

From what I have read, during WWII vehicles used gasifiers mounted on either the front or rear bumper to produce gas as they drove, typically using charcoal or coal. On the other hand, the big balloon bags or flexible bladders on top of buses and cars was likely filled with methane/biogas which has a higher BTU per cubic foot. 

For vehicles, I like a gasifier. For stationary, I'd go with charcoal in a gasifier or biogas from anaerobic digestion. In both cases, the solid residue left over is great for the garden.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

ToddT58 said:


> From what I have read, during WWII vehicles used gasifiers mounted on either the front or rear bumper to produce gas as they drove, typically using charcoal or coal. On the other hand, the big balloon bags or flexible bladders on top of buses and cars was likely filled with methane/biogas which has a higher BTU per cubic foot.
> 
> For vehicles, I like a gasifier. For stationary, I'd go with charcoal in a gasifier or biogas from anaerobic digestion. In both cases, the solid residue left over is great for the garden.



Charcoals actually one of the Products produced in the Wood Gasification.
Most of your Energy is already gone once its Charcoal, one reason charcoals used to cook on.Lack of smoke and open flame.

The Bags Actually had Town Gas (same as wood gas but from coal both can be referred to as syn gas.)

Compressing wood gas has Draw backs.

Digesters are Interesting but need feeding and maintenance as well.
Then there are the Storage Issues.
If its a full time thing and not for Back up, may be the better alternative.
I'd rater have Bio gas for cooking though.
In my case I think it would be far less labor intensive in the long run to go the wood route. At least with some time saving equipment to ease the task.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

double post...


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

"Most of your Energy is already gone once its Charcoal, one reason charcoals used to cook on.Lack of smoke and open flame."

That statement needs a few qualifiers. Charcoal is a more pure form of carbon than wood and is more energy dense per pound by quite a bit. It is also much easier with the hot fire of burning charcoal to get to a place where water can get cracked into hydrogen, increasing the effective energy even more.

It is completely true that wood has oils and tars that charcoal does not, but excess water in it works against it, unlike water introduced in a charcoal setup. Given a choice between a ton of wood (even properly dried) and a ton of charcoal, I'd take the charcoal in a heartbeat.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Harry Chickpea said:


> "Most of your Energy is already gone once its Charcoal, one reason charcoals used to cook on.Lack of smoke and open flame."
> 
> That statement needs a few qualifiers. Charcoal is a more pure form of carbon than wood and is more energy dense per pound by quite a bit. It is also much easier with the hot fire of burning charcoal to get to a place where water can get cracked into hydrogen, increasing the effective energy even more.
> 
> It is completely true that wood has oils and tars that charcoal does not, but excess water in it works against it, unlike water introduced in a charcoal setup. Given a choice between a ton of wood (even properly dried) and a ton of charcoal, I'd take the charcoal in a heartbeat.


I can agree but in context,unless you are introducing steam into the mix (not real common on a home built gasifier.) the moisture in the wood is your source of steam.
Really though you would not run anything over 10% any way.



The real question though, which is easier to procure? Takes a lot of wood to make a ton of charcoal. (2-1 ratio more or less)
then you need to create the steam? 
For a little setup I have to go with wood. Besides Most people are wanting to make use a of by product, much like the thread down in SE&P.
Or like Wayne Keith who operates a saw mill.
I'd like to find the study he did with the University on different fuel stocks.

Though its still holds true you will have burned up a lot of you energy in converting to charcoal.
Pound of wood has 7000 Btu and coal 9000 Btu, but it takes 2 tons of Wood to create 1 ton of Charcoal (some times Higher). 
So 28 mill btus for the wood,18 mill Btu for the charcoal
Plus the Added step to carbonize the wood and harvest twice as much.
And again add a second step to the process of the syngas (the Steam).

What might be interesting is using charcoal to in destructive distillation of wood to create methanol for fuel. 
Then continue the process with charcoal created.
Not real efficient, but very portable.

I have a challenge out to a wood gas experimenter on using corn.
Same BTUs as charcoal.
With proper equipment lot easier then harvesting wood.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

My home 'Boiler' (Radiant Floor Heat) burns corn, wood pellets & propane.

Wood pellets require frequent cleaning, leaving behind the usual oily reside that is flammable,
While the corn burns clean and leaves behind a white ash that is great for the garden.
Virtually no reside in the flue pipe or inside the burner box.

When you burn corn, you don't get that 'Smoky' smell in the house.
I don't mind the smell of wood smoke, but some people don't like it.
If you can smell wood smoke, it's getting into the house and coating everything, something to consider if your wife doesn't like smelling like a smoked sausage and constantly cleaning...

When I'm home to feed/clean it, I burn corn,
When I'm gone, I flip it over to Propane so all the wife has to do is adjust the thermostat.
I'm perfectly aware that the 'Normal' home doesn't have a small grain bin next to it, but I never said I was 'Normal'...

Corn is cheaper than wood pellets (in BTU's) right now, and even cheaper than propane in the winter when propane shoots way up...


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

JeepHammer said:


> Corn is cheaper than wood pellets (in BTU's) right now, and even cheaper than propane in the winter when propane shoots way up...


Its what 8,000 BTU per pound?

As opposed to 7,000 BTU per pound for wood...

Cord wood here is 150-180 a full cord,not sure on pellets.

I factor corn being 3 cents more a pound then cord wood.

So it would be cheaper from a heating stand point but in the case of a Gasifaction , corn really seems the way to go for fuel.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Don't know, wouldn't consider wood gasification unless everything else was exhausted, just to many problems and REALLY dirty,
Not just the particulates, low energy output, but for the corrosives it produces and leaves in the engine.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

JeepHammer said:


> Don't know, wouldn't consider wood gasification unless everything else was exhausted, just to many problems and REALLY dirty,
> Not just the particulates, low energy output, but for the corrosives it produces and leaves in the engine.


thats why you have filtration,but corn burning hotter and cleaner you would think it would be less of a issue.

Low ash yield is also a plus.

But in the end of days scenario, I would think growing corn for fuel vs processing to gasifier size chunks would overall be less labor intensive and any surplus would be edible. 

But currently I can get wood free from lots of sources.

Some of it already gasifier ready.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Yeah, I don't much believe in the 'End Of Days' crap myself, but each to their own...
I don't have it if it doesn't serve me RIGHT NOW,
Do work, reduce bills, reduce my work load, ect.

That is the entire idea behind long term 'Sustainable' over the long impending (over 5,000 years of 'End Of The World' cults) still no end of the world...

The idea of 'End Of The World' is pretty stupid anyway.
The Earth will still be here, even if it's a lifeless rock in space like Mercury, Venus or Mars...
It will just be rid of the surface dwelling life forms it's not aware of in the first place...

The idea of 'Sustainability' is to sustain the eco system we live in currently, no hotter, no colder, no less oxygen, the ozone layer intact, ect.

The end of 'Humans' doesn't mean the end of the 'World' or even the end of life on the planet,
It just means the humans that have been here for about the last million or so years would be absent, it's strictly a human ego thing, nothing based in reality.

-----------

Personally,
I'm off grid for power & water, 
Produce several more times the amount of food than I could consume in a year,
Recycle everything I can get my hands on,
Produce very little green house gasses or acid rain gasses, 
And it's all mostly automated so it will work well into my 'Senior' years with little maintenance.

Almost everything here does SOMETHING to lighten the load, pay me directly or it's gone.
It serves ME, not the other way around, I don't have to store it, insure it, maintain it when it's producing NOTHING in the near term.

'End Of The World' is a gimmick cooked up to keep folks scared and consuming,
And to sell 'Afterlife' insurance in the form of 'Religion'.
Rather that concentrating on producing something hear and now, getting a job done using common sense and doing it in a way that doesn't harm the earth bio-sphere that supports human life.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

I think your taking end of the world to figurative.

I have already in my life time seen several personal end of the worlds play out.

Nobody can promise you tomorrow, a living or happiness.

But its nice when a job comes up and I got the tool out in the barn.

How many guys you know with a saw set and hand saws?

I don't know many?

We normally heat with propane and supplement with wood.
Normally early season and colder months the propanes on.

Found the furnace was done when we needed it most.
But we made due with the wood, had to buy some in but 
was cheaper then propane.

Tanks still close to 80 even after having to run the genset 36 hours.
(had my gasifer been in order well) 
Companies charging us a rental fee, cause we have not filled it.
Had a smaller tank at the shop they took it for that reason.
was not happy, I actually needed it the day of discovery!

I don't want to go off grid 100%
same way one day I may not be able or have money for fuel, options are nice.
sure they will give me a bill for the meter, add taxes... but thats what I call insurance.

Insurance, well no mortgage no insurance.
Yes I'm a gambler. Law of averages though,
Plus not tempting the fates... location,location,location...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

I built a poured concrete, earth sheltered home.
Fire Proof, Tornado Proof, Bug Proof, Rodent Proof, Rot Proof, 
Couldn't get financing because there wasn't anything like it around to compare it with...
(Of all the stupid banking ideas out there, that has got to be in the top ten)

Couldn't get water damage insurance because I installed fire sprinklers in the event the contents burned...
Even though it's concrete and it has floor drains...
No Insurance at all because I don't have a mortgage (Because I couldn't get financing)...
How's that for a 'Catch 22'...

I carry insurance on the shop/garage and my machine tools (conventional metal pole barn construction)...

I'm working on putting the solar/water in a well anchored 20 foot steel shipping container.
20 years on the old wooden 'Yard Barn' have about done it in,
When that's done, the batteries, inverters, water tanks, ect. will all be MORE tornado/hail/vandal proof than the house.
Slugs & mold are eating my yard barn/power station/water works.

The shipping container is going to be an 'Updated' version of what I have now,
Well head through the floor so it's protected,
Battery strings, inverters,
Pressure tanks for water reserve,
Storage for all the extra parts & pieces,
High Security, virtually indestructible.
Cost is about $2,500 before I started making an updated version of battery roller carts, racking for the electronics, 
Building in the wiring/cables, ect.

With HEAVY insulation, the electronics will keep everything from freezing, so no issues with the water supply...

It's a common sense thing...
We didn't pre-determine what everything was going to 'Look' like, then try to fit the rest of our lives into that 'Look',
It's form follows function...

With some field stone, cut limestone, decorative blocks, ect. the place 'Looks' nice,
But that was an afterthought, we didn't let 'Looks' get in the way of function.

Looking from 'Back' or 'Sides' you can't see our home.
Looking straight at it from the front, it NOW looks like a limestone outcropping that someone has bored into closing the hole with a BUNCH of windows.
The windows have roll down protection, so they aren't vulnerable to vandals or storms...
And the roll downs make GREAT shade in the summer with all that glass in the front.

The 4 'Light' pipes sticking up, the small 'Feeder' gain bin sticking up out of a dirt pile look a bit odd, but let the 'Wild Flowers' (Stink Weeds in my opinion, but the wife likes them) grow up a little, and it looks like abandoned farm stuff.

The grain bin supplies corn to the boiler automatically, but with any solid fuel feeder system, there is the 'Potential' for it to fail, plug up, ect.
So when I'm on the road, it's propane for the convenience of the wife.
I don't mind dumping the ash catcher tray every 4 or 5 days, so corn when I'm home...

The one thing about building a dual fuel boiler, 
It's expensive, but no more expensive than those smoky, smelly outdoor 'Furnaces' that burn wood.
Mine is a combination of 'Endless/Tank-less' propane water heater and fire box with a corn feeder.
One good thing about it, ENDLESS HOT WATER!

Radiant floor heat lets me use evacuated thermal tube solar to pre-heat the water,
And most times in the spring/fall, the boiler doesn't have to kick on,
The antifreeze through the solar thermal panels does the job.

It's a LOT of plumbing, but I'm old enough I only have to do it ONCE, 
This *Should* out live me...
And for the most part, it's all automatic other than some valves to open/close when you switch over from corn to solar/propane...

I'm looking towards my 'Senior Years', not the 'End Of The World'...
No electric bills, No water bills, No sewage bills, 
Low maintenance, Redundancy, everything over built for longevity.

I've been through THREE DIRECT TORNADO STRIKES,
3 times in 54 years, so it's likely to happen again before I kick the bucket if I die of old age...
Don't want to have to 'Rebuild' when I'm 70...

The 'Grid' has been down, once for more than 10 days, we didn't even know about it...
I haven't had to reset the alarm clock in the past 10 years...

The only water interruption was when the bladder in the pressure tank failed,
I had to flip a valve cutting off the bad tank, and we had water again...

The septic has clean out plugs everywhere, and the drains are as straight line as I could make them, virtually everything has a clean out plug and direct access to the entire length of the line just in case it plugs up... EASY CLEAN OUT! 
No busting lines or concrete floors to fix the issue...

Just COMMON SENSE, nothing spectacular...
40+ years of living in houses that someone else set up the plumbing, wiring, heating, ect. that you COULD NOT service without ripping out walls/floors.
I'm just NOT going to go through the issues I've had previously where some contractor used the cheapest crap he could get away with, took shortcuts that required major demolition to fix a simple issue...

I get pranged on for using 'Pavers' instead of poured concrete...
Pavers come up if you need to dig,
Pavers don't get you TAXED TO DEATH since they aren't considered 'Permanent',
Repairing a cracked/potholed concrete patio/side walk is a major deal,
While replacing pavers is a SNAP...

If the ground shifts under paves, you simply pull the pavers and level things out, replace the pavers,
Try that with poured concrete!

Like I said, 
It's just common sense, 
Like raised garden beds, fire/storm proof home living in 'Tornado Alley', sewer/drain clean out plugs, wiring in conduits, ect.


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## red-beard (Jan 10, 2016)

Harry Chickpea said:


> Just a thought - it is a long way around the barn, but lithium batteries are a lot more forgiving of short charge times than lead acid. If you had a small bank of lithium batteries that could be charged by the generator to a voltage ABOVE what the lead-acids would take, there are power supply chips that provide regulated voltage. That means the charged lithium batteries could come into play AFTER the generator has done the bulk charge and been shut down, doing the finishing charge on the lead-acid.
> 
> I'm positive it would work in theory, but the costs could be prohibitive. Rather than fool with steam, why not just store your woodgas in a silage bag for later use? Methane from biogas is commonly stored in gasometers or bag structures.


IF you are going to go this route, use Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (LiFePo4). They are 12.8VDC. They can take a lot of current and discharge a lot of current safely. As long as all of the safety circuits are in place, you can use a reprogrammed deep-cycle lead acid charger.


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## red-beard (Jan 10, 2016)

warreng5995 said:


> Anyone know if* Noco Genius* battery smart chargers are actually a good brand/good product?
> I saw them recommended on a few websites... but you know how that goes, most sites get kick backs and such.
> 
> Just wondered if anyone had used any of their models.
> ...


They are ETL certified to UL specs. I would feel comfortable using the charger.

However, look at the time to charge. You are running the generator to charge the batteries. It is a very big generator and they are very inefficient at low loads.


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