# Working in the pit of despair



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/7/6/20681186/fast-food-worker-burnout?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Good article. Nobody should have to work.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Crappy low skill jobs should be incentive for building knowledge and skills to go be productive elsewhere. Seth


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Obtain/get better skills, get a better job.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HermitJohn said:


> https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/7/6/20681186/fast-food-worker-burnout?


Thank you. I highly doubt over a handful of people will read the article, but it was insightful. The stress must be incredible. 

From your link: "A lot of people blithely advise the poor to work their way toward dignity and self-respect. I’d wager that none of them has been written up for having a natural reaction to being splattered with mustard, or had their schedule cut to 15 hours a week because they took a sick day, or been bawled out for being one minute late. Their mental image of work comes from the pre-internet era, and we need to stop taking them seriously and start listening to the people on the brutal front lines of the modern low-wage workforce. They’re very easy to find."

How does someone struggling on a minimum wage (or just slightly higher) work enough to support even themselves while trying to obtain more education or training?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you. I highly doubt over a handful of people will read the article, but it was insightful. *The stress must be incredible*.


The whining was incredible.



Irish Pixie said:


> How does someone struggling on a minimum wage (or just slightly higher) work enough to support even themselves while trying to obtain more education or training?


They do whatever it takes, just like millions of people have done since the beginning of time.




Irish Pixie said:


> Their mental image of work comes from the pre-internet era, and *we need to stop taking them seriously* and start listening to the people on the *brutal front lines of the modern low-wage workforce*. They’re very easy to find."


We need to stop taking these snowflakes seriously.
They come across like a bunch of drama queens.
If you don't like your job, get another one.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

My first job off the farm was fast food. I worked at KFC. I invented spicy chicken. I could do everything in that store.

It was a brutal job.

I left it and went to college.

Cry me a river


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> My first job off the farm was fast food. I worked at KFC. I invented spicy chicken. I could do everything in that store.
> 
> It was a brutal job.
> 
> ...


You were able to leave and go to college. It was in the 70/80s, right? When college was much less expensive than it is now?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> My first job off the farm was fast food.


Mine was too, sort of.
I would ride the school bus to work at a little BBQ place.

I didn't expect to make enough to support myself, but I managed to have enough to buy myself a car when I turned 16.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

You cannot use stories from "the day", they are not relevant. No one learns from the past these days silly.
Survive, succeed, learn, educate, strive, determine have all been removed from enlightened conversation.
HD, don't you have any feels?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> You were able to leave and go to college. It was in the 70/80s, right? When college was much less expensive than it is now?


Very good point. Since the government took over student loans, college cost is insane. Now some want to make college free, and it will be as valuable as a high school diploma.

BTW - My son, worked and put himself through school. He is two classes away from a very marketable skill.

I paid for my daughter's school. She always worked hard in school.

I would not pay for my son's school because he only wanted to party. He finally got his head right, and went back. When I offered to pay, he told me he was going to do it on his own. My son and I are closer than ever now. I am very proud of him.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

GTX63 said:


> You cannot use stories from "the day", they are not relevant. No one learns from the past these days silly.
> Survive, succeed, learn, educate, strive, determine have all been removed from enlightened conversation.
> HD, don't you have any feelings?


I am selective on how I use them.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

GTX63 said:


> You cannot use stories from "the day", they are not relevant. No one learns from the past these days silly.
> Survive, succeed, learn, educate, strive, determine have all been removed from enlightened conversation.
> HD, don't you have any feels?


The conditions, wages, working environment, etc. of "back in the day"are not relevant today. The working environment is markedly different now.

ETA: The education and training is markedly different as well.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> The conditions, wages, working environment, etc. are not relevant today. The working environment is markedly different now.


Make excuses, and get bad results.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Very good point. Since the government took over student loans, college cost is insane. Now some want to make college free, and it will be as valuable as a high school diploma.
> 
> BTW - My son, worked and put himself through school. He is two classes away from a very marketable skill.
> 
> ...


Excellent for you and your children, we supported our children as well. Do you agree that many people don't have that type of (or any) support?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> My first job off the farm was fast food. I worked at KFC. I invented spicy chicken. I could do everything in that store.
> 
> It was a brutal job.
> 
> ...


Also not "moderny" is your experience in education, family, diet, firearms, raising dogs, fishing, politics, the Bible, pasta with sauce, hair balls, bad neighbors, voting, illegals and health care, the piles, mother in laws and goat wormers.
Now sit down and eat your pudding so we can itch our ears.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Do you agree that *many people don't* have that type of (or any) support?


Many people don't whine about every little thing either.



Irish Pixie said:


> The conditions, wages, working environment, etc. of "back in the day"are not relevant today. The working environment is markedly different now.


No, it's really not.
Employers expect you to show up on time now, just as they did then.



> Irish Pixie said: ↑
> You were able to leave and go to college. It was in the 70/80s, right? When college was much less expensive than it is now?


Everything was "less expensive", and evidently people were less spoiled.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

My son did it going to school part time and had two children while in school. He has been employed with Lexisnexis for several years and maintains the sexual predator data base.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Back in the day, people weren't stupid enough to believe/expect a fast food job to provide anything other than some spending money for your date with Becky Sue. The jobs sucked and they didn't pay much because it took few skills to do the job. You could/can be a top dog at one of those jobs if you show up on time and don't act like an entitled dope. I guess that is too much to ask from today's FF workers. I never worked in FF, but, I did spend my summers climbing up into unfinished attics on some hot Georgia July days and installing duct work for min-wage. Why? That is what my skills were worth.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

po boy said:


> My son did it going to school part time and had two children while in school. He has been employed with Lexisnexis for several years and maintains the sexual predator data base.


My oldest daughter worked part time as a CNA (not much above minimum wage), went to nursing school full time, and had three kids under the age of 8. She didn't do it alone, her husband makes good money as an electrician, and I watched the grands a lot. 

Support isn't just income, it's a network of people that help someone through stress and anxiety.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Excellent for you and your children, we supported our children as well. Do you agree that many people don't have that type of (or any) support?


They need a good muleskinner


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> Back in the day, people weren't stupid enough to believe/expect a fast food job to provide anything other than some spending money for your date with Becky Sue. The jobs sucked and they didn't pay much because it took few skills to do the job. You could/can be a top dog at one of those jobs if you show up on time and don't act like an entitled dope. I guess that is too much to ask from today's FF workers. I never worked in FF, but, I did spend my summers climbing up into unfinished attics on some hot Georgia July days and installing duct work for min-wage. Why? That is what my skills were worth.


You should write a book. Everyone needs to read your wisdom and how you overcame adversity.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> You should write a book. Everyone needs to read your wisdom and how you overcame adversity.


That might work if HS grads could read


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> That might work if HS grads could read


Most of the HS grads I know can read. Some may not read well due to learning and/or medical disabilities, but most can read.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> You should write a book. Everyone needs to read your wisdom and how you overcame adversity.


Well, common sense is a rare commodity today. Was there something, in particular, that you found particularly enlightening, or, is this just more troll activity?


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

I have zero sympathy for these complainers.
My former construction company has always struggled to find young entry level employees. The main requirements have always been:
1. You need to look semi presentable. If you're covered in tatoos or piercings, smell bad (like cigarettes or worse) or dress like a bum, you probably won't get in the door.
2. You need to be able to read, write and do basic math.
3. You need to be a little bit physically adept, climb ladders, carry tools, etc.
4. You need to be drug free - Big challenge for many.
5. You need to be able to get to work every day on time.

We started them out at $13-15 hour and could get them to $20 pretty quickly so long as they did what was required and were reliable. We provided jthe job skills training. Very tough to find these people and many that we did hire washed out in first 30 days or less.

Sorry, but there are no good paying jobs for people that aren't willing to meet the basic requirements above. I'm sure our company wasn't unique.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you. I highly doubt over a handful of people will read the article, but it was insightful. The stress must be incredible.
> 
> From your link: "A lot of people blithely advise the poor to work their way toward dignity and self-respect. I’d wager that none of them has been written up for having a natural reaction to being splattered with mustard, or had their schedule cut to 15 hours a week because they took a sick day, or been bawled out for being one minute late. Their mental image of work comes from the pre-internet era, and we need to stop taking them seriously and start listening to the people on the brutal front lines of the modern low-wage workforce. They’re very easy to find."
> 
> How does someone struggling on a minimum wage (or just slightly higher) work enough to support even themselves while trying to obtain more education or training?


It is hard. That is the kind of job that young adults get, that is the kind of job that I once had, and it is hard.

A person either builds a better life or they do not. I can tell you that some of the coping skills that I learned while having that sort of life have been priceless. 

I feel real sympathy for the young people who are starting out in that kind of job, but it is as much a part of life as is being considered a bad parent because your child is mentally disabled, getting bawled out for your supervisor's mistake, or getting stolen from.

I think it was Cicero who said "be kind to the people that you meet, because every man carries a heavy burden". I think it is good advice


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Most of the HS grads I know can read. Some may not read well due to learning and/or medical disabilities, but most can read.


I was matching your  with my 

So


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

As for the employers who cannot find good help, there are a multitude of people out there who take work seriously: what is your company doing wrong that they cannot find them?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

HDRider said:


> I was matching your  with my
> 
> So


You thought I was being facetious? Perish the thought...


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

my first thought is who the heck eats mcdonald's?
gross both literally and figuratively, I won't go into more detail than that. 

which leads to me my second thought about this article - of course these people eating this crap food are miserable, yelling at employees and throwing things. the crap has rotted both their brain and their heart. And of course a business that sells crap isn't going to care much about their employees. 

of course people have to work and of course things might be hard sometimes in life but clearly if people are "whining" it could be because something is wrong. Just because we all have to work hard to get somewhere -maybe, just maybe -it's gone from hard to inhumane in some cases. Things are not the same as when you were young, stop thinking that. Get your head out of the sand and learn some empathy. 

until people can feel empathy for others and reject evil in the world the suffering will continue.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> my first thought is who the heck eats mcdonald's?
> gross both literally and figuratively, I won't go into more detail than that.
> 
> which leads to me my second thought about this article - of course these people eating this crap food are miserable, yelling at employees and throwing things. the crap has rotted both their brain and their heart. And of course a business that sells crap isn't going to care much about their employees.
> ...


You might want to get your blood pressure checked. I hate for you to have a stroke.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you. I highly doubt over a handful of people will read the article, but it was insightful. The stress must be incredible.
> 
> From your link: "A lot of people blithely advise the poor to work their way toward dignity and self-respect. I’d wager that none of them has been written up for having a natural reaction to being splattered with mustard, or had their schedule cut to 15 hours a week because they took a sick day, or been bawled out for being one minute late. Their mental image of work comes from the pre-internet era, and we need to stop taking them seriously and start listening to the people on the brutal front lines of the modern low-wage workforce. They’re very easy to find."
> 
> How does someone struggling on a minimum wage (or just slightly higher) work enough to support even themselves while trying to obtain more education or training?


Maybe they think the poor should move to China to get those entry level factory jobs that dont require a degree, that they remember. Cause they sure arent available in USA, not ones that lead to a step up, factory jobs still available more like $12 an hour, not much above minimum wage, though you might not get jerked around as much as working fast food. Face it, lot of rungs on the ladder have gone missing. It also assumes everybody has same abilities as they say they have. Just cause THEY went to college riding on the back of a dinosaur, doesnt mean everybody at low end is capable of same thing. Some people, probably lot people simply arent cut out to race the rats and play the capitalist reindeer games in modern world. There are still lot people I think that are more suited to peasant agriculture, but are forced into high tech urban world. 

By way I dare anybody that doesnt already have high tech mechanic abilities to find a half way reliable car for less than $2500 cash. Lot more if you finance it of course. Back in old days when localities banned dinosaurs from urban areas, you could buy a very reliable low tech car for $500 cash. Not pretty, but servicable and get you to work. Now the high tech stuff, you are going to have to hire it fixed. Its beyond average shade tree mechanic of old. I figured it out for a 90s Ranger but I have lifetime of mechanic skills and also had lot leisure time so could take my time to experiment, read, figure it out, not having to have it fixed to get to work that evening.

Yet wages for 16 year olds that one of previous posters mentions havent increased much. We wont even bother to mention that I am just as old and remember when you could rent an old rural farmhouse for $15 a month. Might not have electric, but still had roof to keep rain off your head. You would be lucky to find an efficiency apt for $500 anymore. Nothing between sleeping on sidewalk and that $500 apt (if you can find one). Oh there might be some $300 houses out there (utilities on top of that) but believe me they arent going to be close to a job. And we then go in circle back to what it costs for a reliable commuter vehicle... and fuel necessary. Those landlords with rentals out back of beyond, are feeding off people living on SS or welfare or something.

Its a different world for sure, no matter what fantasy world my fellow old fogies want to believe. Their politics apparently prevent them seeing reality. Its still 1954 for them and always will be.


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## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> of course people have to work and of course things might be hard sometimes in life but clearly if people are "whining" it could be because something is wrong. Just because we all have to work hard to get somewhere -maybe, just maybe -it's gone from hard to inhumane in some cases. Things are not the same as when you were young, stop thinking that. Get your head out of the sand and learn some empathy.


I think a lot of these folks are boomers that have little appreciation for how sterile and dehumanizing a lot of these jobs can be today. They don't understand that a lot of young people are working 2-3 of these crap gigs just to stay afloat. That isn't really surprising since they are the generation that took the post-war boom and turned it into the current state of things...

McDonalds shouldn't be a career path for anyone unless they are looking to enter management or corporate but at the same time, these service jobs are more and more going to make up the bulk of the available jobs in the US.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

My first job was working in the "muck" washing and packing onions (I hate onions) during the summer - the "muck" was our local term for working on a commercial farm. You know, the jobs Americans won't do.

My second job was working as a waitress at Ponderosa after school (sometimes I worked extra shifts at the restaurant after I got off from work at the muck during the summer when they were short waitresses).

Rinse and repeat, muck in the summer, Ponderosa the rest of the year, until I graduated high school. That paid for my clothes and my little sister's clothes, our sports gear, doing "fun" stuff teenagers like to do, and my car/insurance/gas because my single mother didn't have the extra money to buy us that stuff (sister worked too when she was old enough, muck/Subway for her).

After school I worked at a T-shirt shop during the day, and a bar at night. I had a baby at that time. 

It all sucked. You _are_ treated like crap by the customers, and if you're unlucky, by your boss/managers (waitresses get it from everyone, customers, back of house staff and management, so fun). Everyone should have to work retail/restaurants, like doing military service, at least so you know what that person you're currently treating like crap has to put up with - only partly joking.

Having said all that, after going through those experiences I decided the military was my way out. I had an almost-toddler at the time. That also sucked, being away from her, and I was still treated like crap by my "customers" and "bosses" (at least early on) but it was worth it and did get me out of the single mother death spiral and got me an education. I'm not saying everyone should go in the military, but there are ways out of anything if you think about it and work toward something instead of just treading water.

I'm not special. I don't work harder than your average person. If you're happy where you are, stay where you are. If you're not happy where you are, go somewhere else and do something else. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, it sucks. But so does sitting there being unhappy and feeling sorry for yourself for the rest of your life.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

There are always other alternatives to deal with stress and lack of upward mobility.

https://time.com/5609124/us-suicide-rate-increase/



> *U.S. Suicide Rates Are the Highest They've Been Since World War II*


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Mish said:


> My first job was working in the "muck" washing and packing onions (I hate onions) during the summer - the "muck" was our local term for working on a commercial farm. You know, the jobs Americans won't do.
> 
> My second job was working as a waitress at Ponderosa after school (sometimes I worked extra shifts at the restaurant after I got off from work at the muck during the summer when they were short waitresses).
> 
> ...


Yep just put one foot in front of the other and march your children to the border to seek better opportunity.... oh wait..... scratch that!


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

I had jobs in college usually involving the care and feeding of swine, or, dairy cattle. It was a crap job in the most literal sense of the word. I am a Gen Xer, The crap some are saying about how bad it is out there is just not true. I have family members who didn't finish high school, who have good factory jobs making ~$20 and hour. (a very good wage for this area.) I also have family who can't keep a part time job at Dunkin Donuts. The difference? Attitude. I really do believe that some simply want to complain and not do the work necessary for success.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

HDRider said:


> You might want to get your blood pressure checked. I hate for you to have a stroke.


oh you're such a funny guy., HD Rider


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you. I highly doubt over a handful of people will read the article, but it was insightful. The stress must be incredible.
> 
> From your link: "A lot of people blithely advise the poor to work their way toward dignity and self-respect. I’d wager that none of them has been written up for having a natural reaction to being splattered with mustard, or had their schedule cut to 15 hours a week because they took a sick day, or been bawled out for being one minute late. Their mental image of work comes from the pre-internet era, and we need to stop taking them seriously and start listening to the people on the brutal front lines of the modern low-wage workforce. They’re very easy to find."
> 
> How does someone struggling on a minimum wage (or just slightly higher) work enough to support even themselves while trying to obtain more education or training?


I think we may view this kind of thing differently, and may be due to where and how we grew up.
A job is what you make of it, and in my life, I've had a lot of different jobs. Some I quit, some just ceased to exist, and I got fired from a couple jobs when I was young.
The jobs I found stressful were the jobs where I didn't really know what I was doing, or just wasn't interested in what I was doing.
Over the years, I found out that the people who get bawled out are the people who are chronically late for work, or call in sick 3 or 4 times a month.
Also, the people with a poor attitude or little to no work ethic tend to get sent down the road pretty quick.
Ever worked with someone who spent the entire day running his/her mouth and doing half the work of everyone else?
I have, and they were usually let go, nobody wanted to work with them.
Yep, it's hard to get by on minimum wage, but remember, it's a starting point, not a life sentence. If your career begins at McDonald's, and 5 years later you are working for minimum wage at Wendy's, then the problem isn't the minimum wage.
If they made minimum wage $50 and hour, the same issues would exist because minimum wage will still be the bottom.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> My oldest daughter worked part time as a CNA (not much above minimum wage), went to nursing school full time, and had three kids under the age of 8. She didn't do it alone, her husband makes good money as an electrician, and I watched the grands a lot.
> 
> Support isn't just income, it's a network of people that help someone through stress and anxiety.


My daughter works as a med aid.
She started out, like you said, not much over minimum, but she worked hard, put in her time, and she's smart. She's making more than twice what she started at.
My youngest son started at a manufacturing place, making a couple bucks over minimum.
He stayed with the company, helped them build 2 brand new plants, and is now the quality manager.
He got there by working hard, being smart and learning as much as he could.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HermitJohn said:


> Yep just put one foot in front of the other and march your children to the border to seek better opportunity.... oh wait..... scratch that!


What does that have to do with anything you quoted of mine? Or your original article, which was talking about Americans working in the pits of despair?

Or is it one of those "I have to change the subject because these poor people I'm telling stories about actually proved it isn't true" things?


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> Yep, it's hard to get by on minimum wage, but remember, it's a starting point, not a life sentence. If your career begins at McDonald's, and 5 years later you are working for minimum wage at Wendy's, then the problem isn't the minimum wage.


Ok, then how would YOU get ahead? You are a single mother with a baby. You have a McD job and getting jerked around never knowing how many hours per week you get, you dont get regular hours so cant really have a second job cause this boss wants your full time availability without competition for second job though he doesnt want to pay a reliable income. 

Ok, what is your first move? You quit, you have ZERO income and living on street with a kid. You barely can meet rent, let alone buy a reliable care with all the inspections and insurance required. You possibly can join the army and go get shot but wait you have a kid and nobody to look after the kid. So what is your move? Fairy god mother waving magic wand? Not sleeping and carrying your kid around on your back to various part time jobs 24/7?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> Excellent for you and your children, we supported our children as well. Do you agree that many people don't have that type of (or any) support?


Not everybody has good support, that's true.
That doesn't prevent them from being successful, it just means they have to rely on themselves a bit more and work harder.
I knew a couple years ago, both came from alcoholic, abusive parents.
They got married at 17, he joined the military, they had 3 daughters, and retired at the age of 43, millionaires and had no help from anyone.
The people I see fail are the people who are told "It's too hard, you can't do it", or "You aren't smart enough, you don't have the education, you'll never amount to anything".


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HermitJohn said:


> Ok, then how would YOU get ahead? You are a single mother with a baby. You have a McD job and getting jerked around never knowing how many hours per week you get, you dont get regular hours so cant really have a second job cause this boss wants your full time availability without competition for second job though he doesnt want to pay a reliable income.
> 
> Ok, what is your first move? You quit, you have ZERO income and living on street with a kid. You barely can meet rent, let alone buy a reliable care with all the inspections and insurance required. You possibly can join the army and go get shot but wait you have a kid and nobody to look after the kid. So what is your move? Fairy god mother waving magic wand? Not sleeping and carrying your kid around on your back to various part time jobs 24/7?


I told you how I did. I actually was a single mother from an extremely poor background with a deadbeat ex husband, were you, ever? I explained it to you and you answered with some gobbledy **** about marching my kids to the border.

Stop making us - women who actually were/are struggling single mothers - into martyrs for your cause. We're human beings that can figure it out, or not, we don't need you making up theoretical stories about us to bolster your (IMHO) wrongheaded thinking.

IMHO you should be shouting to the rooftops at men to man up and take care of their responsibilities if you really want to change the situation of single mothers. That would be much more productive.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

About ten years ago I was on a very high stress, short deadline job. I hired a new kid and didn't have time to train him the first week so I put him watering grass so it wouldn't die. 

Meanwhile I got on the 90lb jackhammer with the crew because we were behind schedule. At the end of a 12 hour day all I heard from theh the kid was "this is there hardest job in the world having to water all this grass." If my arms hasn't felt like soft rubber from the jackhammer I would have clobbered him I think. 

Last year I actually went through the whole entire staff at the temp agency just to get 3 people that wanted to work. I ended up with one guy and two girls. 3 out of about 40 that would work. This didn't happen thirty years ago. 

Yes, lot of things have changed these days. Not necessarily what you think either.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Mish said:


> What does that have to do with anything you quoted of mine? Or your original article, which was talking about Americans working in the pits of despair?
> 
> Or is it one of those "I have to change the subject because these poor people I'm telling stories about actually proved it isn't true" things?


Somehow it copied your whole post. The part I intended to quote was: "If you're not happy where you are, go somewhere else and do something else."

I am just asking where and how do you just "go somewhere else and do something else" when you have no assets, no transportation, no nothing. Sounds like those folk walking from Central America, dont you think. Just cause you do get somewhere, doesnt mean there will be better circumstances. And if you stay where you are, there may not be alternatives. So do you spin the wheel and bet on red? Do just stick with whats available and the mental abuse that entails? What? Just telling somebody without resources to move on if they dont like it is pretty lame. The devil is in the details. Generalities dont cut it. And you move to where there is more jobs or better jobs, living expenses also tend to be lot higher and here you have no income and no savings.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

HermitJohn said:


> Ok, then how would YOU get ahead? You are a single mother with a baby. You have a McD job and getting jerked around never knowing how many hours per week you get, you dont get regular hours so cant really have a second job cause this boss wants your full time availability without competition for second job though he doesnt want to pay a reliable income.
> 
> Ok, what is your first move? You quit, you have ZERO income and living on street with a kid. You barely can meet rent, let alone buy a reliable care with all the inspections and insurance required. You possibly can join the army and go get shot but wait you have a kid and nobody to look after the kid. So what is your move? Fairy god mother waving magic wand? Not sleeping and carrying your kid around on your back to various part time jobs 24/7?


My sister was a single mother.
She applied to nursing school, got grants and loans, and also got paid while she went to school.
She did it herself through available programs and determination.
Just as an example.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

HermitJohn said:


> Somehow it copied your whole post. The part I intended to quote was: "If you're not happy where you are, go somewhere else and do something else."
> 
> I am just asking where and how do you just "go somewhere else and do something else" when you have no assets, no transportation, no nothing. Sounds like those folk walking from Central America, dont you think. Just cause you do get somewhere, doesnt mean there will be better circumstances. And if you stay where you are, there may not be alternatives. So do you spin the wheel and bet on red? Do just stick with whats available and the mental abuse that entails? What? Just telling somebody without resources to move on if they dont like it is pretty lame. The devil is in the details. Generalities dont cut it. And you move to where there is more jobs or better jobs, living expenses also tend to be lot higher and here you have no income and no savings.


What do you suggest?
They should just give up? 
Lay down and die?


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Mish said:


> I told you how I did. I actually was a single mother from an extremely poor background with a deadbeat ex husband, were you, ever? I explained it to you and you answered with some gobbledy **** about marching my kids to the border.
> 
> Stop making us - women who actually were/are struggling single mothers - into martyrs for your cause. We're human beings that can figure it out, or not, we don't need you making up theoretical stories about us to bolster your (IMHO) wrongheaded thinking.
> 
> IMHO you should be shouting to the rooftops at men to man up and take care of their responsibilities if you really want to change the situation of single mothers. That would be much more productive.


Dont blame me for your decisions, I am childless, didnt father any children. Other people make other decisions. But you obviously were doing this in a different time. People on this thread cant quite wrap their head around that things are different than they were even a generation ago. Its a bit like neighbors holding a bake sale for somebody with cancer. Its a nice thought, but have you priced medical care lately..... See you are just giving out generalities from a different era. Things are moving fast and furious anymore. I have almost constant Rip Van Winkle moments where it feels like I have been asleep last 20 years or even 40 years. But at least I am aware things are very different.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> My sister was a single mother.
> She applied to nursing school, got grants and loans, and also got paid while she went to school.
> She did it herself through available programs and determination.
> Just as an example.


So you are saying non-dischargable debt, the modern indentured servitude, is the answer?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

HermitJohn said:


> Ok, what is your first move? You quit, you have ZERO income and living on street with a kid.


If it is as you say and she is in want of extra hours that don't come. She can use the time when she would have been working walking around finding something better to do with her time. When she finds it, quit the job she has.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HermitJohn said:


> Somehow it copied your whole post. The part I intended to quote was: "If you're not happy where you are, go somewhere else and do something else."
> 
> I am just asking where and how do you just "go somewhere else and do something else" when you have no assets, no transportation, no nothing. Sounds like those folk walking from Central America, dont you think. Just cause you do get somewhere, doesnt mean there will be better circumstances. And if you stay where you are, there may not be alternatives. So do you spin the wheel and bet on red? Do just stick with whats available and the mental abuse that entails? What? Just telling somebody without resources to move on if they dont like it is pretty lame. The devil is in the details. Generalities dont cut it. And you move to where there is more jobs or better jobs, living expenses also tend to be lot higher and here you have no income and no savings.


So, in my personal story, where did you read that I had assets other than those I worked my rear end off for? I bought my own school clothes or I wouldn't have had any. I bought my sister's clothes. I paid for the sports we wanted to be in, and the uniforms/gear we needed. I bought my own car. I paid for everything myself, unlike a lot of teenagers whose parents buy those things for them. Where in that story did you read that I come from people with "assets"? 

I was pregnant when I graduated high school, and the guy that did marry me the day after I graduated slowly disappeared until I was a single, teenage mother with a high school diploma and parents that couldn't help me out financially. I figured it out myself.

I'm telling you that I came from the place you're imagining. And yet you argue with me that I should apparently still be sitting there crying about how badly I have it. I'm telling you, having come from nothing with very little support, there are ways to get out.

Or we can keep being hypothetical and just base everything on our biased assumptions instead of listening to how people who have been there have overcome it in various ways.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

HermitJohn said:


> So you are saying non-dischargable debt, the modern indentured servitude, is the answer?


Was for her.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Fishindude said:


> I have zero sympathy for these complainers.
> My former construction company has always struggled to find young entry level employees. The main requirements have always been:
> 1. You need to look semi presentable. If you're covered in tatoos or piercings, smell bad (like cigarettes or worse) or dress like a bum, you probably won't get in the door.
> 2. You need to be able to read, write and do basic math.
> ...


We constantly have advertising out for general labor, welders, etc. Now we need a maintenance man and a safety director, but not many applications.
When we do hire 3 or 4 people, half of them don't work out because they either don't show up every day or just can't seem to do the work.


----------



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> What do you suggest?
> They should just give up?
> Lay down and die?


But you are not giving any specifics, gotta admit the modern world isnt giving those on low end much choice. You get this when the wealth gap widens to the extreme. At least the last Gilded Age in late 1800s you could still get free or cheap scrub land and put up a shack and have garden. Now the greedy want all the land and only want your labor, want you to just magically disappear at end of your low pay shift. Certainly dont want you to live in their neighborhood and bring down property values! Dont really want to pay you, dont want to feed you, dont want to house you. Just want a slave without the expense.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

HermitJohn said:


> So you are saying non-dischargable debt, the modern indentured servitude, is the answer?


She paid her loans.
She paid her dues
She lived on Ramen noodles, had a crappy apartment and a crappy car.
She didn't have a TV, gaming systems, fancy clothes or any of it.
She worked hard and sacrificed a lot, but she made it.
If someone in that same boat doesn't want to put in the work, doesn't want to make the sacrifices, then no, they probably aren't going to go very far very fast.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> We constantly have advertising out for general labor, welders, etc. Now we need a maintenance man and a safety director, but not many applications.
> When we do hire 3 or 4 people, half of them don't work out because they either don't show up every day or just can't seem to do the work.


Fancy job titles, but is this full time and do they pay anymore than when this was just called a janitor? You want loyalty, you gotta offer loyalty. I have seen few bosses anymore offer anything close to loyalty. They just want the cheapest warm body they can find that might marginally do the job. And fire them if small downturn in economy.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

HermitJohn said:


> But you are not giving any specifics, gotta admit the modern world isnt giving those on low end much choice. You get this when the wealth gap widens to the extreme. At least the last Gilded Age in late 1800s you could still get free or cheap scrub land and put up a shack and have garden. Now the greedy want all the land and only want your labor, want you to just magically disappear at end of your low pay shift. Certainly dont want you to live in their neighborhood and bring down property values! Dont really want to pay you, dont want to feed you, dont want to house you. Just want a slave without the expense.


That's ridiculous


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> She didn't have a TV, gaming systems, fancy clothes or any of it.


This is that lame old fiction of the welfare queen. Poor people dont have serious credit. They cant afford fancy tvs let alone have anywhere to put them, or gaming or clothes. Sure some bite on stupid credit offers where somebody offers bit credit at such high rate they hope the sucker will make enough payments to at least cover cost of the item. Its like those buy here pay here car lots. First payment pretty much covers wholesale auction cost of the clunker, rest is just gravy.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

HermitJohn said:


> Fancy job titles, but is this full time and do they pay anymore than when this was just called a janitor? You want loyalty, you gotta offer loyalty. I have seen few bosses anymore offer anything close to loyalty. They just want the cheapest warm body they can find that might marginally do the job. And fire them if small downturn in economy.


Full time, benefits, decent pay, hard work.
Which of those are preventing someone from working here?


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> That's ridiculous


Keep reminding yourself, its not 1954. Maybe eventually it will sink in.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Cornhusker said:


> When we do hire 3 or 4 people, half of them don't work out because they either don't show up every day or just can't seem to do the work.


Do you offer time off for them to complain about how unfair it is to have to get up and go to work? Perhaps that is your problem?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

HermitJohn said:


> This is that lame old fiction of the welfare queen. Poor people dont have serious credit. They cant afford fancy tvs let alone have anywhere to put them, or gaming or clothes. Sure some bite on stupid credit offers where somebody offers bit credit at such high rate they hope the sucker will make enough payments to at least cover cost of the item. Its like those buy here pay here car lots. First payment pretty much covers wholesale auction cost of the clunker, rest is just gravy.


Some get $10,000 tax returns and have nothing to show for it in 6 months.
Oh sure, a new tattoo, new I-phone, 60" flat screen, maybe some booze and a couple concerts.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

HermitJohn said:


> Keep reminding yourself, its not 1954. Maybe eventually it will sink in.


All of the success stories that I have seen have happened in this millennium.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> Full time, benefits, decent pay, hard work.
> Which of those are preventing someone from working here?


Compared to actual living costs? If you arent getting applicants, something is amiss. Either the "full time" pay is not close to providing a real living or the work is super onerous. Seen some jobs locally where they expected people to clean out toxic chemical vats for minimum wage. Yea, people arent usually that stupid or that desperate.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

HermitJohn said:


> Keep reminding yourself, its not 1954. Maybe eventually it will sink in.


I wasn't around back then, but you might remind yourself that work ethics aren't what they once were, and that's the problem.
People want everything to be easy, they want it handed to them, nobody wants to go after success.
I have a brother-in-law who changes jobs 3 or 4 times a year and can't figure out why he can't make a decent living.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> All of the success stories that I have seen have happened in this millennium.


Interestingly I have noticed BIG change downward in peoples circumstances just since 2008. Rents skyrocketed, wages remained tanked. Hasnt been a good decade for anybody but the wealthy who have had a banner decade.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> I wasn't around back then, but you might remind yourself that work ethics aren't what they once were, and that's the problem.
> People want everything to be easy, they want it handed to them, nobody wants to go after success.
> I have a brother-in-law who changes jobs 3 or 4 times a year and can't figure out why he can't make a decent living.


So he moved from McD to Wendys to Burger King to KFC and didnt find success? Amazing. Now if he had only stuck to his job at McD, he would be a Trumparian billionaire. Meaning a billionaire if he lied about it and borrowed like crazy and declared bankruptcy. Oh and those million dollar loans from daddy help too. The ones you dont ever pay back cause its just a end run around gift taxes.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

HermitJohn said:


> Compared to actual living costs? If you arent getting applicants, something is amiss. Either the "full time" pay is not close to providing a real living or the work is super onerous. Seen some jobs locally where they expected people to clean out toxic chemical vats for minimum wage. Yea, people arent usually that stupid or that desperate.


This general labor would involve grinding, cleaning up welds, hanging parts on the paint line, things like that.
It's hot and dirty, but you can work your way up.
I started here as general labor many years ago.
I came to work every day, I did what was asked of me and a little more.
I didn't complain about the hours or the lack of hours, I worked all the overtime I could get.
When I had been here 3 months, I had a heart attack, and the company stood beside me, went to bat for me with the insurance company (I was eligible for insurance on the 1st of May and had my MI on the 4th).
They paid me short term disability while I was recovering, and when I came back, they let me work at my own pace and rest when I needed to.
It's a good company to work for, but...y'know....hot and dirty.
Now I have an air conditioned office, but I worked my into it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> ETA: The education and training is markedly different as well.


No, it's really not.
I have a friend who spent around 8-9 years in college.

When she worked, it was mostly things like waiting tables.
She had a small apartment and a roommate for many years.

She didn't have a fancy car and no one had cell phones.
She also didn't have any student loans.

She was divorced and had a son that lived with her.

She ended up as a professor in American Literature at Miami University in Ohio.



Irish Pixie said:


> You should write a book. Everyone needs to read your wisdom and how you overcame adversity.


Why do you make it personal?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

HermitJohn said:


> Hasnt been a good decade for anybody but the wealthy who have had a banner decade.


 The last 10 years have been fine for me and mine. The last 2.5 have been particularly great. My family went from just about everyone unemployed to everyone who wants a job, has one. You would do well not to worry about what the rich guy has. It makes no real difference in your world, or, anyone else's.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

HermitJohn said:


> So he moved from McD to Wendys to Burger King to KFC and didnt find success? Amazing. Now if he had only stuck to his job at McD, he would be a Trumparian billionaire. Meaning a billionaire if he lied about it and borrowed like crazy and declared bankruptcy. Oh and those million dollar loans from daddy help too. The ones you dont ever pay back cause its just a end run around gift taxes.


How did this become a Trump bash?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

HermitJohn said:


> Interestingly I have noticed BIG change downward in peoples circumstances just since 2008. Rents skyrocketed, wages remained tanked. Hasnt been a good decade for anybody but the wealthy who have had a banner decade.


Yeah, around 2008 things got pretty bad for a while, but looking up now.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

HermitJohn said:


> Compared to actual living costs? If you arent getting applicants, something is amiss. Either the "full time" pay is not close to providing a real living or the work is super onerous. Seen some jobs locally where they expected people to clean out toxic chemical vats for minimum wage. Yea, people arent usually that stupid or that desperate.


The only thing I can think of besides the hot, dirty and hard work is the distance from town.
Understand, where I live, distance is measured in time, and everybody has to go somewhere to do just about anything.
We pay very well for this area.
The longer you stay, the more your pay.
We've got people working here over 30 years, and a few have retired after 40 years.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HermitJohn said:


> *Dont really want to pay you*, dont want to feed you, dont want to house you. Just want a slave without the expense.


LOL
Who is the biggest tightwad on this site?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Cornhusker said:


> How did this become a Trump bash?


I think that's what it's been from the beginning.


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## broncocasey (Nov 7, 2011)

What’s going to happen when most of these low skilled jobs are done with robotics? We’ve allowed millions of low/no skilled workers into our country and in 5-10 years are going to demand benefits. Maybe we get what we deserve


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

One comment about the writer of the article, he complains about getting screamed at for being 1 minute late to work then complains about the extra time it takes to make sure he gets to work on time. You are supposed to be ready to clock in at the required time. Sure some jobs will let you clock in a bit late, but it's not something you should expect. Be there on time, not really that difficult. If you get there early use the free McDonalds wi-fi to apply for other jobs or do your internet posting. Or maybe even offer to clock in early and wash the tables that never get washed. 

Granted McDonalds jobs suck, rude customers, rude co-workers, and the computer scheduling is absolutely terrible. Of all, I think the computer schedule is the worst. My son and daughter both have dealt with those schedules. My son had to put his schedule on the calendar and hang the computer print-out in his room so he could keep track. And McDonalds seems to be in competition with Wal-mart about keeping staffing levels at the bare minimum.

But like any job, you do what you have to do. At least it puts a little money in your pocket. Stop whining and make the best of it. You don't like it, look for another.


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## tripletmom (Feb 4, 2005)

This argument is so tiresome!
I did it, my kids are doing it, it can be done!
My triplets 3 years out of hs, 1 works making trusses. He shows up on time every day, does his work, and has come far in his tenure there. He's the only one who receives the $50/week attendance bonus. He was a foreman for a while and hated it, he said it was simply babysitting.
One works at the local grocery meat dept and is going to school to be a lawyer. She's paying for it with loans and grants. She's not very good at managing her $$.
The third received her cna on the state of wi's dime. She's now making bucu bucks hopping tables at the truck stop and paying her way through nursing school.
The 3 older kids, same stuff. All have decent jobs, all are supporting families. All make too much to receive any welfare nor do they get support for their kids from the other parent.
All are doing fine. 4 are in wi, 2 here in ar. Location may be an excuse, but not buying that either!
I got out of hs and could type. $550/mo in the typing pool in 1980. I was married and had a baby too but dh got layed off and we needed to do something. Granted, typing pools are a thing of the past. Over the next 39 years I managed to learn a lot and climb to be a manager. I took 5 years off when I had triplets.
So all you lefties need to quit yo whining and get a real job!!

Ps, oldest did worked for wm for 5 years and it's true, they do yank you around with the hours and pay. She's now a cna for the state of wi. Hmmm, don't like wm? Move along!
And I know cna doesn't pay great either, but my niece started there and is now an rn soon to be nurse practitioner and my daughter is schooling to be an rn.
AND, all of us worked multiple jobs when needed too.


----------



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> I wasn't around back then, but you might remind yourself that work ethics aren't what they once were, and that's the problem.
> People want everything to be easy, they want it handed to them, nobody wants to go after success.
> I have a brother-in-law who changes jobs 3 or 4 times a year and can't figure out why he can't make a decent living.


So he moved from McD to Wendys to Burger King to KFC and didnt find success? Amazing. Now if he had only stuck to his job at McD, he would be a Trumparian billionaire. Meaning a billionaire if he lied about it and borrowed like crazy and declared bankruptcy. Oh and those million dollar loans from daddy help too. The ones you dont ever pay back cause its just a end run around gift taxes.


Bearfootfarm said:


> LOL
> Who is the biggest tightwad on this site?


Funny it used to be about frugality. Now its Trump wannabes I guess..... spend more than you can afford and declare bankruptcy, just like President Trump. Privatize the profit, socialize the loss.

I avoid hiring anybody for anything as much as possible. Sorry not interested in profiting on backs of others nor am I interested in them profiting off me. My biggest objection is tying up of all resources so nobody can live off sweat of their own brow independently. You know.... "homesteading". Now you have to win the rat race already to even try to get land, etc.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

tripletmom said:


> This argument is so tiresome!
> I did it, my kids are doing it, it can be done!
> My triplets 3 years out of hs, 1 works making trusses. He shows up on time every day, does his work, and has come far in his tenure there. He's the only one who receives the $50/week attendance bonus. He was a foreman for a while and hated it, he said it was simply babysitting.
> One works at the local grocery meat dept and is going to school to be a lawyer. She's paying for it with loans and grants. She's not very good at managing her $$.
> ...


And once again ancient history. Its not like it used to be, it just isnt. I was there I remember how it used to be. And I am aware how incredibly much it has changed. Shouldnt affect me, I am in my "golden years" there is no starting over, either I survive or I dont with decisions I made long ago. 

Believe what you want but if you were stripped of all your assets including knowledge and experience and plopped down penniless in middle of modern city, guessing you would be in for a surprise. Do you live in a dumpster, get minimum wage job and try to save up or do you go the indentured servant route with debt you will never pay off short of winning the lottery?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> Keep reminding yourself, its not 1954. Maybe eventually it will sink in.


You should write a book. I have the title for you. "1001 Excuses, an excuse for every occasion"


----------



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Danaus29 said:


> One comment about the writer of the article, he complains about getting screamed at for being 1 minute late to work then complains about the extra time it takes to make sure he gets to work on time. You are supposed to be ready to clock in at the required time. Sure some jobs will let you clock in a bit late, but it's not something you should expect. Be there on time, not really that difficult. If you get there early use the free McDonalds wi-fi to apply for other jobs or do your internet posting. Or maybe even offer to clock in early and wash the tables that never get washed.
> 
> Granted McDonalds jobs suck, rude customers, rude co-workers, and the computer scheduling is absolutely terrible. Of all, I think the computer schedule is the worst. My son and daughter both have dealt with those schedules. My son had to put his schedule on the calendar and hang the computer print-out in his room so he could keep track. And McDonalds seems to be in competition with Wal-mart about keeping staffing levels at the bare minimum.
> 
> But like any job, you do what you have to do. At least it puts a little money in your pocket. Stop whining and make the best of it. You don't like it, look for another.


When its a choice between mcD and Wendys and Buggered King and KFC, if I dont like one, exactly what choice do I have again? You make it sound like all kinds of entry level unskilled factory jobs just waiting for applicants to prove themselves and work their way to being boss. Sorry but this is 2019, and it just doesnt work that way most places. When some 20 year olds post spouting this, maybe I will take it more seriously. But people that did their thing 50 years ago, sorry, I was there, it just isnt that way anymore.


----------



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

HDRider said:


> You should write a book. I have the title for you. "1001 Excuses, an excuse for every occasion"


And you, a fantasy for every occasion.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> And you, a fantasy for every occasion.


I am the mayor of Realville.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> How did this become a Trump bash?


He promised to bring back the manufacturing jobs, just like in 1954. He hasnt, thats how he is relevant. That and his lies how he got rich when he got fake loan from Big Daddy Warbucks and it was just an end run around gift tax. Lot people can do that well GIVEN $1M free and clear as a young man. You have to be stupid to lose it, wait he did lose it.... least on paper. No intention of paying it back by either side. And then he stiffs the American taxpayer by declaring bankruptcy multiple times to avoid his debts. Socialize the loss, privatize the profits.

See people like that trying to enrich themselves by such shenanigans is reason economy is in condition its in. The economy the last ten years has done well.... for the 1%'rs. Worsened greatly for middle and low end.


----------



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

HDRider said:


> I am the mayor of Realville.


Another of your fantasies. You only fantasize you are mayor. You actually live in a cardboard box next to the library.


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## tripletmom (Feb 4, 2005)

HermitJohn said:


> And once again ancient history. Its not like it used to be, it just isnt. I was there I remember how it used to be. And I am aware how incredibly much it has changed. Shouldnt affect me, I am in my "golden years" there is no starting over, either I survive or I dont with decisions I made long ago.
> 
> Believe what you want but if you were stripped of all your assets including knowledge and experience and plopped down penniless in middle of modern city, guessing you would be in for a surprise. Do you live in a dumpster, get minimum wage job and try to save up or do you go the indentured servant route with debt you will never pay off short of winning the lottery?


Did you miss the part about my triplets that just graduated hs 3 years ago?? The past 3 years is not relevant??
And the other 3 in between my ancient history and the past 3 years?
Did you even read my whole post?? Geesh!!!
And a whine, whine, whine! Gimme a break!!


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

HermitJohn said:


> Now if he had only stuck to his job at McD, he would be a Trumparian billionaire. Meaning a billionaire if he lied about it and borrowed like crazy and declared bankruptcy.


There it is. The problem isn't lack of opportunities for the lower class, it is someone with a chronic case of TDS lashing out.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

tripletmom said:


> Did you miss the part about my triplets that just graduated hs 3 years ago?? The past 3 years is not relevant??
> And the other 3 in between my ancient history and the past 3 years?
> Did you even read my whole post?? Geesh!!!
> And a whine, whine, whine! Gimme a break!!


That was Pre-Trump, so, we all know that Trump stopped all opportunity for upward mobility. Gotta love the TDS sufferers. The next 6 years are gonna be rough for them.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> Another of your fantasies. You only fantasize you are mayor. You actually live in a cardboard box next to the library.


Well, sure, but I have all these little toy solders, and they do what I tell them to do. They all look up to me, and call me Mr. Mayor.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

Farmerga said:


> Do you offer time off for them to complain about how unfair it is to have to get up and go to work? Perhaps that is your problem?


Did you read the article - it wasn't about people complaining that they have to GO to work, it was about the CONDITIONS at work.


It's pretty clear most of the follow up posters haven't read the article just got caught up in telling stories their own story.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> Did you read the article - it wasn't about people complaining that they have to GO to work, it was about the CONDITIONS at work.
> 
> 
> It's pretty clear most of the follow up posters haven't read the article just got caught up in telling stories their own story.


Shhh. Let's not upset them with facts. What the article actually said doesn't matter so much to some people.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> Did you read the article - it wasn't about people complaining that they have to GO to work, it was about the CONDITIONS at work.
> 
> 
> It's pretty clear most of the follow up posters haven't read the article just got caught up in telling stories their own story.


You mean using an excuse so they didn't have to GO to work? Give me a break. I have worked in some conditions that would make an OSHA inspector pass slap out. I have had some bosses that would curl your hair with their abuse. I called it motivation.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> Shhh. Let's not upset them with facts. What the article actually said doesn't matter so much to some people.


Can't help it can you?


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## tripletmom (Feb 4, 2005)

And the real point is, if you don't like the conditions then move along! FF isn't the only min wage job out there for those who chose to stay at min wage!


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

Farmerga said:


> You mean using an excuse so they didn't have to GO to work? Give me a break. I have worked in some conditions that would make an OSHA inspector pass slap out. I have had some bosses that would curl your hair with their abuse. I called it motivation.


no. that's not what I mean. that's not what I said. you didn't read the article. 
why should anyone care about your story if you don't care about anyone else's story?



tripletmom said:


> And the real point is, if you don't like the conditions then move along! FF isn't the only min wage job out there for those who chose to stay at min wage!


no, the real point is conditions for workers need to be improved to some degree, in some cases.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

tripletmom said:


> And the real point is, if you don't like the conditions then move along! FF isn't the only min wage job out there for those who chose to stay at min wage!


Exactly.


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## tripletmom (Feb 4, 2005)

no, the real point is conditions for workers need to be improved to some degree, in some cases.[/QUOTE]

Why?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> Can't help it can you?


What the article states is indisputable, the discussion following it doesn't have much to do with article. That's just fact.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> no. that's not what I mean. that's not what I said. you didn't read the article.
> why should anyone care about your story if you don't care about anyone else's story?


Yes I did read the article. It was a bunch of whining about conditions and opining about how it was stressful to flip burgers now because of time restraints. That has always been true. There were always cooking times for burgers in FF, that is how the product is kept more or less consistent. What has changed is that some people are trying to make a FF job work as a career (and I don't mean in management) I am sorry, that won't work. If one doesn't want to do that, one has to make his/her skills more valuable. IF you start out cooking at FF and you are there 2 year later still cooking, you have done something wrong.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> What the article states is indisputable, the discussion following it doesn't have much to do with article. That's just fact.


The article is a bunch of whining from a bunch of people not happy with their lot in life and are desperate to blame someone else.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

"I'll buy a hint for $10 Wink."
*"Working conditions not from this generation".*
Oh, them working conditons,,,,
my feels are aching...


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> no. that's not what I mean. that's not what I said. you didn't read the article.
> why should anyone care about your story if you don't care about anyone else's story?
> 
> no, the real point is conditions for workers need to be improved to some degree, in some cases.


Exactly. And has the article stated, just slap some mustard on that burn and keep working.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> The article is a bunch of whining from a bunch of people not happy with their lot in life and are desperate to blame someone else.


The article was done by a REPORTER that was hired in three different service fields so she could report on the conditions of working minimum wage.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> Exactly. And has the article stated, just slap some mustard on that burn and keep working.


Slipping on the grease and burning oneself on the griddle is an occupational hazard of working in FF.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


> The article was done by a REPORTER that was hired in three different service fields so he could report on the conditions of working minimum wage.


Yeah, so? I'll bet he had a good idea what he wanted to write before he did his "research". I mean the article is from Vox after all.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Farmerga said:


> Yeah, so? I'll bet he had a good idea what he wanted to write before he did his "research". I mean the article is from Vox after all.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)




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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Irish Pixie said:


>


The boss is mean to me and expects me to work while I am at work. I slipped on a wet floor and burned myself. Whining and more whining. Quit, hold up a sign and sucker idiots into giving you money if you can't take the "Stress" of flipping burgers and pushing buttons to start the fries, and those unreasonable bosses who expect you to WORK while at WORK.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Which fast food joint would you rather work at?
Wage benefit promotions, etc to be discussed.
No time limit and it's open book.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> no. that's not what I mean. that's not what I said. you didn't read the article.
> why should anyone care about your story if you don't care about anyone else's story?
> 
> 
> ...


I did read the story. Every problem that was complained about was caused by another person. Getting yelled at for being late. Getting wrote up for being human. Boss man/woman not having enough people scheduled to work the shift. 

If we don't talk about the mentality of the people doing the yelling then there will never be a solution.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

HermitJohn said:


> He promised to bring back the manufacturing jobs, just like in 1954. He hasnt, thats how he is relevant. That and his lies how he got rich when he got fake loan from Big Daddy Warbucks and it was just an end run around gift tax. Lot people can do that well GIVEN $1M free and clear as a young man. You have to be stupid to lose it, wait he did lose it.... least on paper. No intention of paying it back by either side. And then he stiffs the American taxpayer by declaring bankruptcy multiple times to avoid his debts. Socialize the loss, privatize the profits.
> 
> See people like that trying to enrich themselves by such shenanigans is reason economy is in condition its in. The economy the last ten years has done well.... for the 1%'rs. Worsened greatly for middle and low end.


If that's the case, I'm surprised the great Obama didn't fix the economy.
Trump is fixing it, manufacturing is coming back.
It took 8 years or more to cripple the economy, it's gonna take a while to fix it, but it is getting better.
Just removing all the stupid regulations helped a bunch. If we elect another democrat, you will be able to see the economy fall into the toilet again.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HermitJohn said:


> Dont blame me for your decisions, I am childless, didnt father any children. Other people make other decisions. But you obviously were doing this in a different time. People on this thread cant quite wrap their head around that things are different than they were even a generation ago. Its a bit like neighbors holding a bake sale for somebody with cancer. Its a nice thought, but have you priced medical care lately..... See you are just giving out generalities from a different era. Things are moving fast and furious anymore. I have almost constant Rip Van Winkle moments where it feels like I have been asleep last 20 years or even 40 years. But at least I am aware things are very different.


It's not different, other than people are literally begging for people in the trades now, which wasn't happening when I was coming up in the late '80's/early '90's. I'm in my ::cough:: late 40's. The kid I keep referencing as my single mother child is turning 30 this year. My youngest just turned 26. I lived during the "previous generation" and my kids are living the current generation. I lived things as they were then, and also actually _have_ children who tell/show me how things are now compared to when I was doing it. While it was worse when they were teenagers during the last recession, things are bright and shiny and opportunities abound for them nowadays. They just had to put in some work for the opportunities, same way I did a generation before.

No offense, but how close are you to the generation you're bemoaning the world for? Just wondering because you keep saying you don't have kids, I'm wondering how many kids you have around you/know that are forming these opinions you have, or if they're just coming from reading random doomsday articles. All of the "kids" of this generation I know personally are thriving, except one that chooses to take the easy road of living off his mom. Not for lack of opportunity, but lack of motivation. 

Lastly, I blame no one but myself for my decisions. Which is why I got off my ass and did something about it instead of staying where I was and pitying myself and telling everyone I knew how horribly depressing my life was.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

tripletmom said:


> no, the real point is conditions for workers need to be improved to some degree, in some cases.


Why?[/QUOTE]

If you don't know why I am not going to be the one to tell you.



mreynolds said:


> I did read the story. Every problem that was complained about was caused by another person. Getting yelled at for being late. Getting wrote up for being human. Boss man/woman not having enough people scheduled to work the shift.
> 
> *If we don't talk about the mentality of the people doing the yelling then there will never be a solution.*


True. But first people have to recognize it as a problem, but clearly people here don't.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> The article was done by a REPORTER that was hired in three different service fields so she could report on the conditions of working minimum wage.


Yes, but then you have people who actually had to support themselves on minimum wage telling you that it can be done - yes, we all know it sucks (because we've been there) and would love to have had the wherewithal to go through school and become a journalist before we had to work one as part of our story instead of part of having to actually survive, but it can be done. It feels like people would rather believe the reporter who played a minimum wage worker on TV than real people who actually had skin in the game and know it really stinks, but somehow think it can be done because, well, we've done it.

That's the frustrating part, at least on my end. I wasn't just working those jobs to write a story because my life was good enough that I never had work a minimum wage job before then. Anyone who's had to work them already knows this, been there done that kind of thing. Everyone who's reading this article and is shocked, well I'm just glad you never had to work minimum wage jobs to learn it yourselves (not you personally, you in general). Smart/ambitious people use it as a motivation to do better.

None of this is new. It's just weird to me how "minimum wage jobs suck" is a revelation for some people.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you. I highly doubt over a handful of people will read the article, but it was insightful. The stress must be incredible.
> 
> From your link: "A lot of people blithely advise the poor to work their way toward dignity and self-respect. I’d wager that none of them has been written up for having a natural reaction to being splattered with mustard, or had their schedule cut to 15 hours a week because they took a sick day, or been bawled out for being one minute late. Their mental image of work comes from the pre-internet era, and we need to stop taking them seriously and start listening to the people on the brutal front lines of the modern low-wage workforce. They’re very easy to find."
> 
> *How does someone struggling on a minimum wage (or just slightly higher) work enough to support even themselves while trying to obtain more education or training*?


take night classes, that's what I did. I'm sure there are other ways as well.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mish said:


> Yes, but then you have people who actually had to support themselves on minimum wage telling you that it can be done - yes, we all know it sucks (because we've been there) and would love to have had the wherewithal to go through school and become a journalist before we had to work one as part of our story instead of part of having to actually survive, but it can be done. It feels like people would rather believe the reporter who played a minimum wage worker on TV than real people who actually had skin in the game and know it really stinks, but somehow think it can be done because, well, we've done it.
> 
> That's the frustrating part, at least on my end. I wasn't just working those jobs to write a story because my life was good enough that I never had work a minimum wage job before then. Anyone who's had to work them already knows this, been there done that kind of thing. Everyone who's reading this article and is shocked, well I'm just glad you never had to work minimum wage jobs to learn it yourselves (not you personally, you in general). Smart/ambitious people use it as a motivation to do better.
> 
> None of this is new. It's just weird to me how "minimum wage jobs suck" is a revelation for some people.


I'm about ten years older than you. I was kicked out of the house in June 1980 because what I ate cut back on the amount of alcohol my parents could buy. I moved in with my uncle and grandmother, but having no vehicle and living on a farm in the middle of nowhere wasn't good for employment hunting, so I couch surfed and looked for a job. And I know how hard it was to find a job, any job, in the early 80s in some parts of the country. I worked minimum wage, ag job that legally paid less than minimum wage, and I had no support. I met and married (way too quickly) my first husband, he was a domestic abuser, and put me in the hospital when I tried to leave him. I divorced him, met Mr. Pixie six months later, and finally had a support system. My father wouldn't release his financial paperwork (which was nothing at that point because both my parents were alcoholics living off my mother's SS disability due to multiple heart attacks) so I could go to college. I had to be out of the house for (I believe) for three years in order to get loans and grants. He wouldn't release the paperwork so I had to wait another semester or two start classes.

I did it the hard way too, but a minimum wage full time job was enough to (barely) support yourself back then. That's the point, young people have chronic stress because a single person working FF can't reliably support themselves working minimum wage now. It's a rare FF job that is full time, no benefits, and they're one sickness or injury away from unemployment, if they qualify.

It's a different time, different circumstances, and different economy than it was almost 40 years ago when I did it. And just because I did it back then doesn't mean everyone can do it now.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Look, I reread it again and I'm apparently still missing what is so different about working conditions now, or even why they are different than a lot of non-minimum wage job conditions.

"One of my coworkers put it best: “Fast food is intense! And it’s stressful! You’re always feeling rushed, you’re on a time crunch for literally eight hours straight, you’re never allowed to have one moment just to chill.”

Yeah. Like in every. other. job. You're being paid to work, not "chill." That's what breaks and lunch are for - and they're actually enforced now, which is different from when I was working those jobs (I have taken part time minimum wage jobs here and there into my adulthood which is how I know breaks/lunch are being enforced nowadays as opposed to when I started out). Nothing new here.

On top of that, try being salaried management. My husband was clocking 60-80 hours per week physically at work and then fielding emergency calls and tele-meetings on his "time off"/weekends at his first corporate job after retiring from the military (where he also did 50-60+ hour weeks, not to mention the 24-7 working hours of being deployed for months on end - and I think I need not mention being "intense" and "stressful").

Seriously?

"For one thing, everything is timed and monitored digitally, second by second. If you’re not keeping up, the system will notify a manager, and you will hear about it."

You'd hear about it in my day, too. One really nice manager I had told me, on a particularly bad day when I locked my car keys in my apartment and was an hour late because I had to wait for the office to open to get them to let me in so that I could go to work (after dropping my infant off at daycare on the way), "Burnt toast days happen to everyone. You're allowed this one, next one I'll have to let you go." I was a good worker so I got my one burnt toast day that most didn't, but understood I was easily replaced and thems the rules.

We used to shut off our cash registers in between customers at WalMart because they timed your customer/hour ratio and you could get penalized for being too slow (changing metrics on what "too slow" was). Fast food/restaurants have always been speed-oriented - you think computers changed anything there, you haven't ever waited tables or worked fast food, it's always been a yelly, rushed, frenzied corner of Hell. Nothing new to see here.

"The more recent the data, the more accurate the prediction, which is why so many fast-food and retail workers don’t get their schedule until a day or two before it starts. It leaves workers in these industries unable to plan their lives (or their budgets) more than a few days in advance."

Always been this way. I worked at WalMart around 2000ish (one of my adult dips back into part-time minimum wage work while raising kids - home schooled kids - and going to college full time) and schedules came out on Tuesdays and Fridays. If you weren't working Tuesday and Friday to find out your schedule, you called someone and asked when you worked. My T-shirt job, they literally called you the day before telling you what tomorrow's schedule was. That was in 1990. Ponderosa was nice in that schedules came out on Sundays, not that shifts couldn't be cancelled or added at any time - mid-late 80's.

"Technology has also made understaffing a science. At my McDonald’s, we always seemed to be staffed at a level that maximized misery for workers _and _customers, as exemplified by the constant line and yells of “Open up another register!” Not only did this permanently strand us in the weeds, it meant that customers were often in a bad mood by the time they got to us."

Not only minimum wage jobs. Also salaried positions and management positions. That's life now. Maybe not in journalism, but in the corporate world, that's how it works for everyone. Thank Wall Street and the stock holders for that. You can't just show profit, you have to show year-over-year profit and one of the easiest ways to do that is to save on labor costs.

This is just too long. One more and I quit because people who know this to be true already know this, and the rest of you won't believe it anyway, so...

"A lot of people blithely advise the poor to work their way toward dignity and self-respect. I’d wager that none of them has been written up for having a natural reaction to being splattered with mustard, or had their schedule cut to 15 hours a week because they took a sick day, or been bawled out for being one minute late. Their mental image of work comes from the pre-internet era, and we need to stop taking them seriously and start listening to the people on the brutal front lines of the modern low-wage workforce. They’re very easy to find."

I've been puked on, rinsed off in the bathroom, cleaned the puke and continued waiting on people - that was my "natural reaction" and I didn't get written up. I've had many a schedule cut, but not for taking a sick day because I never got "sick days" included with my jobs (excluding the military and WalMart). I've been bawled out plenty of times, I just tried to fix the issue that got me bawled out and did everything I could to avoid having it happen again - if I couldn't avoid it, I tried to be a good enough worker that they treated me like an adult and I took responsibility for it. 

In short, act like a professional, take pride in yourself and your work even if it is minimum wage work, take responsibility when you do wrong, and if you don't like the way things are - get another job. If you don't want to work minimum wage, make yourself worth more than minimum wage and get another job.

Seriously, I just want to say, that's life. That's always been life - at least in my lifetime. I shouldn't, but I have to...suck it up, buttercups.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

From what I see around me I will agree that times are indeed different these days than back in the good old days. It's much easier to be poor in today's world. Lots of people don't have to take care of themselves at all!


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

HermitJohn said:


> Fancy job titles, but is this full time and do they pay anymore than when this was just called a janitor? You want loyalty, you gotta offer loyalty. I have seen few bosses anymore offer anything close to loyalty. They just want the cheapest warm body they can find that might marginally do the job. And fire them if small downturn in economy.


We paid well above the average for our community, start at $13-15/hr, get to $20 in a couple years if you are good, several years of experience you might be good enough to run a crew and pull down $65-75k or more plus get a company vehicle. Nobody ever got laid off for long either. We created busy work in slow times, took work cheap or did some free stuff for local organizations because it is too hard to replace and retrain decent people if you lose them. Everyone had health insurance, paid vacations & holidays a retirement plan, and great benefits too. You have to have these things to get and retain decent people.

Overtime paid time and a half and Sundays paid double. Some took advantage of these opportunities for extra money to get ahead financially, but many complained and would refuse to work long hours or weekends because they didn't want to miss Johnny's soccer game or a weekend barbecue.

It's not an employer loyalty problem. It's just tough to find decent, clean cut, drug free people with any kind of drive to get ahead or work ethic. The ones that got with the program and embraced their jobs really did well for themselves and their families.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm about ten years older than you. I was kicked out of the house in June 1980 because what I ate cut back on the amount of alcohol my parents could buy. I moved in with my uncle and grandmother, but having no vehicle and living on a farm in the middle of nowhere wasn't good for employment hunting, so I couch surfed and looked for a job. And I know how hard it was to find a job, any job, in the early 80s in some parts of the country. I worked minimum wage, ag job that legally paid less than minimum wage, and I had no support. I met and married (way too quickly) my first husband, he was a domestic abuser, and put me in the hospital when I tried to leave him. I divorced him, met Mr. Pixie six months later, and finally had a support system. My father wouldn't release his financial paperwork (which was nothing at that point because both my parents were alcoholics living off my mother's SS disability due to multiple heart attacks) so I could go to college. I had to be out of the house for (I believe) for three years in order to get loans and grants. He wouldn't release the paperwork so I had to wait another semester or two start classes.
> 
> I did it the hard way too, but a minimum wage full time job was enough to (barely) support yourself back then. That's the point, young people have chronic stress because a single person working FF can't reliably support themselves working minimum wage now. It's a rare FF job that is full time, no benefits, and they're one sickness or injury away from unemployment, if they qualify.
> 
> It's a different time, different circumstances, and different economy than it was almost 40 years ago when I did it. And just because I did it back then doesn't mean everyone can do it now.


Yeah, we're close in age. I'm really sorry you had to go through that, it's awful. Familiar except mine were/are mentally ill parents liberally sprinkled with alcohol. Luckily for me I was able to live at home until I graduated because they kind of forgot we were there so as long as we didn't bug them too much. We had a place to keep warm and sleep until we could legally escape, which is no small thing. Yep on the first husband, too (mental illness again instead of violence - so very sorry you had to go through that, too, no one should, ever). Added a baby just for extra complication. Seriously there should be a test for parenthood, I just can't figure out who should administer it though...

Funny both of our first jobs were in ag. I don't even remember what we got paid when I worked there, I was just so happy to finally be legally old enough to work and have some money to buy things we needed. Weirdly I remember the restaurant paid $2.01/hour plus tips (after everyone's tips were pooled and then split equally between front and back of house, so unfair!). I don't remember what the T-shirt place paid except it was cash and we never got W-2's which makes me think now it was less than minimum - this was after I had a baby. And the bar after the baby also paid $2.01/hour, but the tips were better if I could keep myself from physically assaulting people (including the manager and one bouncer in particular) who liked to grope me when I walked by. Stressful work conditions and crappy money back then? Nah.

I'm just not seeing where the stress now is different from the stress then. Same for me when I was out there alone with a baby, me getting sick, her getting sick, babysitter randomly not answering the door, car not starting, locking keys in house, punching a groper in the throat, I could be out of a job. Never had a full time job as such before the military, just several part time jobs at the same time (muck was more than full time hours but considered a temporary job, you know how that goes, nada for benefits or sick/vacation days). Most of them were extremely variable - waiting tables at either bars or restaurants is like gambling, some days are great, some days it feels like you're walking out with less than you walked in with and the bills don't vary unless you're unlucky then it's real bad. Kids always want food. Little stressful.

My starter experiences were like 30 years ago, but I'm not seeing a huge difference in stress levels. Unemployment? What's that? I was stressed beyond belief at the time. Stressed enough to (literally) sign my life away to the first entity that promised me a steady paycheck and medical coverage for me and my kid. I just figured that was life. And it is. No one ever owed me anything was what I'd learned. Circumstances haven't changed that much, but there are a lot of people that seem to think they're owed something, which weirds me out.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I don't want, or need sympathy. I'm fine. I just don't think that because I did it 40 years ago and survived, means that everyone should have to (or even can) do the same thing now.

I'd rather no one went through what I did. Life shouldn't be gratuitously hard.

ETA: I'm not being mean, but did any of us "hard luck minimum wage stories" have their children go through what they did? I didn't. They both worked, the youngest for me on the farm, the oldest at Ponderosa and later retail, plus they both had household chores. We paid the first year of tuition for the youngest, and the oldest's car insurance when she was at a CC. The tuition was out of state and horrendous, and there's no way the oldest could have had an apartment (no dorms), expenses, on a mall retail salary which was above minimum wage, even with her roommate.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> I don't want, or need sympathy. I'm fine. I just don't think that because I did it 40 years ago and survived, means that everyone should have to (or even can) do the same thing now.
> 
> I'd rather no one went through what I did. Life shouldn't be gratuitously hard.


I hope it didn't come off like that. Not sympathy, empathy, and that I totally get it and wish also nobody ever had to go through any of it, right down to the crappy low paying jobs.

But they do, because there isn't really a fix for the hard stuff. I don't feel like it's gratuitously hard, which seems to imply intent, it's just a fact of life. I don't think minimum wage jobs are there because people inherently want to make people miserable. I also don't think they're meant to support a family on. They're low/no skill jobs that don't demand a higher wage. And there are always going to be people that don't move beyond that level, as well as people that do, no matter how high or low that wage is, and how terrible or nice the conditions are. 

I guess I don't see this as necessarily job problem. It's a poor planning/decision making problem. I'm not excluding myself from the group that planned poorly and made poor decisions, I've made some whoppers. But at some point you have to straighten yourself out, and work toward what you actually want. It seriously is really good out there right now if you're in that position, things are booming from everything I hear and see, even in my old podunk backwater (pop. 2000) my friends who own small businesses are filling my Facebook feed with help wanted notices. It seems like the gettin's good right now, if someone doesn't like working at McDonald's.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mish said:


> I hope it didn't come off like that. Not sympathy, empathy, and that I totally get it and wish also nobody ever had to go through any of it, right down to the crappy low paying jobs.
> 
> But they do, because there isn't really a fix for the hard stuff. I don't feel like it's gratuitously hard, which seems to imply intent, it's just a fact of life. I don't think minimum wage jobs are there because people inherently want to make people miserable. I also don't think they're meant to support a family on. They're low/no skill jobs that don't demand a higher wage. And there are always going to be people that don't move beyond that level, as well as people that do, no matter how high or low that wage is, and how terrible or nice the conditions are.
> 
> I guess I don't see this as necessarily job problem. It's a poor planning/decision making problem. I'm not excluding myself from the group that planned poorly and made poor decisions, I've made some whoppers. But at some point you have to straighten yourself out, and work toward what you actually want. It seriously is really good out there right now if you're in that position, things are booming from everything I hear and see, even in my old podunk backwater (pop. 2000) my friends who own small businesses are filling my Facebook feed with help wanted notices. It seems like the gettin's good right now, if someone doesn't like working at McDonald's.


I absolutely didn't mean you. I'm just frustrated.

And it doesn't have to be gratuitously hard, everyone needs a support system, care about other people. Just care. I'm done. I'm likely to lose internet completely anyway, the storms have made it spotty at best.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HermitJohn said:


> Funny it used to be about frugality.


"Frugality" leads to minimum wage jobs.
You keep trying to make it about Trump when it's just life.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> no, the real point is conditions for workers need to be improved to some degree, in some cases.


They were whining about being expected to show up *on time*.
Their attitudes is what needs to be improved.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

A lot of excuses for failure in this thread. Fast food jobs weren't meant to be a career. And unlike in the past, if you were born poor, you don't have to stay poor. Upward economic mobility is more vibrant today than it was 90 years ago and just as vibrant as it was 50 years ago (if not more so).


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> The article was done by a REPORTER that was hired in three different service fields *so she could report* on the conditions of working minimum wage.


So it was all fabricated from the beginning.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> I absolutely didn't mean you. I'm just frustrated.
> 
> And it doesn't have to be gratuitously hard, everyone needs a support system, care about other people. Just care. I'm done. I'm likely to lose internet completely anyway, the storms have made it spotty at best.


I'm with you. And to answer your edit on the other post, no, I did EVERYTHING I could to ensure my kids didn't go through what I did because it was not fun in any way. I told story after story after story until they were sick of it (oldest was old enough to remember some of it, fortunately/unfortunately). Thankfully it stuck, but it easily could have not stuck and there wouldn't have been a whole lot I could have done about it except what you suggest, being a support system. 

Totally with you, in a perfect world we would all have everything we need, emotionally and financially. It's figuring out what to do with the non-perfect world we live in that has me at a loss, except in places I have control (real or imagined) like my kids.

Hope the storms pass you by with no damage or interruption. Literally and figuratively


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## ticndig (Sep 7, 2014)

I went to McDonalds for a meal . with my meal I asked for a small Coke.
The young girl at the register said "sorry we don't sell small ,only medium and large .
so I asked her if maybe the medium was the small since there were only two choices.
NO it's a medium she says .
yup $15 bucks an hour sounds about right zzzzz


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

I work a variety of construction trades. So naturally am around others that do also. So a few interesting things I see on a regular basis. 
Show up on time and ready to work, maybe. 
Able to read a tape measure ? Quite often not. 
Read the instructions on the label of a product and follow them ? Reading ability is common. Being able to understand what their reading..... rare. 
Hardhat, safety glasses, tape measure, pencil on your person at all times..... good luck. 
Stay off the phone and work ? Good luck. 

Years ago I was complaining about the help situation. Older guy told me that anyone that could remember 3 things to do needed to be cultivated. (Get a broom from the tool trailor, sweep the blue room out, move the boxes containing flooring material in the tool trailor into the blue room) Because they were feature management. Naturally I said that was silly, now I know better. The old man was right. 

Someone griping about opening a sack of frozen fries, dumping them in a basket, pushing a button, and taking the fries out when the buzzer goes off. Same for the burgers. Very little skill needed. Their complaining ? Customers are upsetting them ? Try harvesting the potatoes, raising and processing the beef. 


As far as those upset about the difficulty of working a low end job and getting along or moving up. Well that concerns me very little. I personally and daily watch people doing land scraping jobs, concrete work, roofing buildings. Hard physical work in unpleasant conditions. Schedules are varied and often on short notice due to weather, other contractors issues, available work, etc. There are problems with reading the instructions, heck there are problems communicating. However they show up on time, stay busy, work extra hours when it’s available , come to work in a presentable manner. And their sending most of their money home to their families. Yes the workers are driving older vehicles, several living in the same place at a time, other than the common cell phone you see few creature comforts. They bring their meals to work. Ask them about stress in their life. As some of you have figured out, their not modern day products of our American school system and family lifestyles. Something to thing about.......

The bad part is I am also one of those complaining about the illegal immigrants being here...... but I do RESPECT them. 

Someone complaining about getting in trouble for being late, burning the fries and having to deal with a pissed off customer, or not being able to read the label on the side of a shoe box and getting the correct color and size. Slipping on a wet floor. Always being in a hurry to keep up with the clock. Little sympathy here.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> no. that's not what I mean. that's not what I said. you didn't read the article.
> why should anyone care about your story if you don't care about anyone else's story?
> 
> 
> ...


I agree to some extent.
Every job is what you make of it, but some jobs are just going to suck.
I don't think anybody sets out to work fast food for their entire life, most of us move on to grownup jobs eventually.
Fast food work is for school kids and people who can't pass the whiz quiz, and occasionally someone working a second job.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> The article was done by a REPORTER that was hired in three different service fields so she could report on the conditions of working minimum wage.


And she wrote a good story.
Probably never earned a blister in her life. (not that there's anything wrong with that)
The people commenting on this thread are people who have been there done that and have a right to their opinion whether you think so or not.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

mreynolds said:


> I did read the story. Every problem that was complained about was caused by another person. Getting yelled at for being late. Getting wrote up for being human. Boss man/woman not having enough people scheduled to work the shift.
> 
> If we don't talk about the mentality of the people doing the yelling then there will never be a solution.


On the other hand, if you don't want to get yelled at for being late, get to work on time.
Most places depend on you to be there, if they didn't need you there, they wouldn't hire you.
Water on the floor? Clean it up.
Slip and fall? Rub bacon on it and watch your step.
I've worked with people who can't quite get to work on time, call in sick once a week, then go around telling everybody they got screwed on their paycheck.
I'm sure you've worked with people like that too.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> And she wrote a good story.
> Probably never earned a blister in her life. (not that there's anything wrong with that)
> The people commenting on this thread are people who have been there done that and have a right to their opinion whether you think so or not.


Anyone can offer an opinion, and anyone can rebut an opinion. But if a thread is based on a linked article, shouldn't they at least read the article? 

I've been there, done that as well. My opinion may not be popular, but can I can have one. It goes both ways. Correct?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> Not everybody has good support, that's true.
> That doesn't prevent them from being successful, it just means they have to rely on themselves a bit more and work harder.
> I knew a couple years ago, both came from alcoholic, abusive parents.
> They got married at 17, he joined the military, they had 3 daughters, and retired at the age of 43, millionaires and had no help from anyone.
> The people I see fail are the people who are told "It's too hard, you can't do it", or "You aren't smart enough, you don't have the education, you'll never amount to anything".


Exactly. They relied on each other, that's a support system.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Cornhusker said:


> On the other hand, if you don't want to get yelled at for being late, get to work on time.
> Most places depend on you to be there, if they didn't need you there, they wouldn't hire you.
> Water on the floor? Clean it up.
> Slip and fall? Rub bacon on it and watch your step.
> ...


Oh yeah I have. Yelling is never the answer though. To be a boss some degree of professionalism is required. 

I have had two bosses yell at me. Both regretted it.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> Some get $10,000 tax returns and have nothing to show for it in 6 months.
> Oh sure, a new tattoo, new I-phone, 60" flat screen, maybe some booze and a couple concerts.


To receive EIC you have to have earned income, and there is a max: "The *maximum amount* of credit for Tax Year *2019* is: $6,557 with three or more qualifying children. $5,828 with two qualifying children. $3,526 with one qualifying child." Which is up from 2018: The EITC maximum credit amounts for *2018* are: $6,431 with three or more qualifying children. $5,716 with two qualifying children. $3,461 with one qualifying child.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> To receive *EIC *you have to have earned income, and there is a max: "The *maximum amount* of credit for Tax Year *2019* is: $6,557 with three or more qualifying children. $5,828 with two qualifying children. $3,526 with one qualifying child." Which is up from 2018: The EITC maximum credit amounts for *2018* are: $6,431 with three or more qualifying children. $5,716 with two qualifying children. $3,461 with one qualifying child.


That really has little to do with what he said.



> Cornhusker said: ↑
> Some get *$10,000 tax returns* and have nothing to show for it in 6 months.
> Oh sure, a new tattoo, new I-phone, 60" flat screen, maybe some booze and a couple concerts.


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

I was part of a focus group once dedicated to college student retention. The question was asked “What motivated you to go to college?” My answer was “Working 3rd shift at the factory”.


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

I was about the best French Fry maker Wendy’s ever had. Unfortunately, opportunities for advancing in that field (French fry making) were limited.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

It's interesting how many folks side with the corporations as opposed to believing that maybe people (including themselves) deserve better work conditions/situation.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

MichaelZ said:


> I was about the best French Fry maker Wendy’s ever had. Unfortunately, opportunities for advancing in that field (French fry making) were limited.


People like to think the first "French" fries were cooked in France.
They were actually cooked in Grease.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> Anyone can offer an opinion, and anyone can rebut an opinion. But if a thread is based on a linked article, shouldn't they at least read the article?
> 
> I've been there, done that as well. My opinion may not be popular, but can I can have one. It goes both ways. Correct?


I don't know about everybody else, but I did read it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> It's interesting how many folks side with the corporations as opposed to believing that maybe people (including themselves) deserve better work conditions/situation.


They haven't shown any bad "working conditions".
It's just been a lot of *whining* about having to actually work for a living.
"Working conditions" are better now than ever before in all of human history.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

mreynolds said:


> Oh yeah I have. Yelling is never the answer though. To be a boss some degree of professionalism is required.
> 
> I have had two bosses yell at me. Both regretted it.


Yeah, I've had bosses like that...for a short period of time.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> They haven't shown any bad "working conditions".
> It's just been a lot of *whining* about having to actually work for a living.
> "Working conditions" are better now than ever before in all of human history.


This is your *perception*. 


It's a generational thing, I get it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> This is your *perception*.
> It's a generational thing, I get it.


It's what I read in the article.
It's also their "perception" things are horrible, because they are largely spoiled. 
There's nothing "generational" about people thinking (wrongly) they are entitled.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you. I highly doubt over a handful of people will read the article, but it was insightful. The stress must be incredible.
> 
> From your link: "A lot of people blithely advise the poor to work their way toward dignity and self-respect. I’d wager that none of them has been written up for having a natural reaction to being splattered with mustard, or had their schedule cut to 15 hours a week because they took a sick day, or been bawled out for being one minute late. Their mental image of work comes from the pre-internet era, and we need to stop taking them seriously and start listening to the people on the brutal front lines of the modern low-wage workforce. They’re very easy to find."
> 
> How does someone struggling on a minimum wage (or just slightly higher) work enough to support even themselves while trying to obtain more education or training?





Irish Pixie said:


> You were able to leave and go to college. It was in the 70/80s, right? When college was much less expensive than it is now?


I saw that train headed straight towards me in 1998/1999. College was not an option for me, personally. I enlisted.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's what I read in the article.
> It's also their "perception" things are horrible, *because they are largely spoiled*.
> There's nothing "generational" about people thinking (wrongly) they are entitled.


ummmm - poor people aren't spoiled. (?)

it's generational to think you know it all just because you've been around a while and therefore can't even begin to hear someone else's opinion.
I deal with this in real life too. I'm very, very familiar with it. 

And don't be confused, I don't believe that the coming of age generation of today should have everything handed to them or made easy for them.
I do believe that when fellow human beings speak up about a corporation, what they have to say deserves to be considered and not quickly, and judgmentally, dismissed.

Thank you very much and have a nice day.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> ummmm - poor people aren't spoiled. (?)


They *whining* in the article wasn't coming from "poor people".



wdcutrsdaughter said:


> it's generational to think you know it all just because you've been around a while and therefore can't even begin to hear someone else's opinion.


I heard their opinions.
I still think they are spoiled.



wdcutrsdaughter said:


> I do believe that when fellow human beings speak up about a corporation, what they have to say *deserves to be considered* and not quickly, and judgmentally, dismissed.


I considered it before I dismissed it.
They still come across as a whiny bunch of snowflakes.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> It's interesting how many folks side with the corporations as opposed to believing that maybe people (including themselves) deserve better work conditions/situation.


I'm always in favor of better working conditions.


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## tripletmom (Feb 4, 2005)

McDonalds states on all their tv ads 'America's best first job'.
Hmmmm...


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

MichaelZ said:


> I was part of a focus group once dedicated to college student retention. The question was asked “What motivated you to go to college?” My answer was “Working 3rd shift at the factory”.


My son helped my husband and I build an extremely large series of retaining walls the summer before he would have been a Junior in high school. We did everything by hand, dug the side of the mountain out with shovels and wheelbarrows, laid about 10 pallets worth of concrete block, mixed the mortar in a wheelbarrow with a hose and a hoe.

After we'd finished for the day sometime in the first week or so, he stopped what he was doing and announced to both of us that he was definitely going to college after graduation. He did 



wdcutrsdaughter said:


> It's interesting how many folks side with the corporations as opposed to believing that maybe people (including themselves) deserve better work conditions/situation.


I'm not siding with them. I just don't see an answer from the bottom of the chain other than removing yourself from it. I'm not going to change the system, I have to learn to either deal with it or move up in it. 

Having said that, moving up in it also is full of stress and the same "bad" conditions the article complains about, except most times the stress and conditions get more difficult to deal with and take up more of your time - which you're not really compensated for as you're usually salaried. Kind of like how kids think their parents are mean and require a lot of them until they become the parents and realize how much work their parents were actually doing as well.

(I am not comparing minimum wage workers to kids, unless they actually are under 18, more of an analogy).


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

My oldest son, still in college, has been at Culver’s about 5 years now. When he told them he might be leaving, they gave him a raise to keep him since he shows up all the time when scheduled. Nobody ever threw anything at him, but one disgruntled ex employee threw hamburgers at the drive through window. The fringe benefit of restaurant work is free or reduced price food - a real plus for a college student.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)




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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> They *whining* in the article wasn't coming from "poor people".
> 
> 
> I heard their opinions.
> ...


"a whiny bunch of snowflakes" is not a phrase or idea you came up invented.
just makes your dismissal seem quite influenced by a script you've been given.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> It's interesting how many folks side with the corporations as opposed to believing that maybe people (including themselves) deserve better work conditions/situation.


Firm believer in better working conditions. Due to insurance and OSHA regulations most jobs do not have unsafe or really bad working conditions like many in the past. Now the personal relations at work are a different thing entirely. Human nature being what it is. As far as the corporation issue goes I do believe generally speaking that the corporations are trying to resolve many of the issues that have been discussed. And I think their doing it as fast as they can. It’s just not what many are wanting. Their eliminating as many of the jobs as fast as they can. Self service ordering and check out at many types of business. Customer pumping and paying for fuel at the pumps, vehicle service checks non existent. Streets are being built and paved with little human labor. Got a complaint about a issue on a bill ? Probably handled with no human contact. Warehouse stock being handled with little hands on contact. Resturant jobs no longer require much skill. Many skilled trades actually require little human skill other than pushing a button and shifting a few items around. The list goes on. As time goes by things are going to continue to get easier for many. The problem is their going to keep thinking its so hard.......


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> "a whiny bunch of snowflakes" is not a phrase or idea you came up invented.
> just makes your dismissal seem quite influenced by a script you've been given.


No, I didn't invent any of the words in the English language.
I merely use the ones which best seem to fit.

Did you invent the phrase "came up invented"?
I've never heard that one before. 

I don't need a script to recognize an incessant whine.



> Irish Pixie and painterswife like this.


No surprises there.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

HermitJohn said:


> When its a choice between mcD and Wendys and Buggered King and KFC, if I dont like one, exactly what choice do I have again? You make it sound like all kinds of entry level unskilled factory jobs just waiting for applicants to prove themselves and work their way to being boss. Sorry but this is 2019, and it just doesnt work that way most places. When some 20 year olds post spouting this, maybe I will take it more seriously. But people that did their thing 50 years ago, sorry, I was there, it just isnt that way anymore.


Hubby worked at McDonalds in the late 70's. Their work environment hasn't changed much. Although when he worked there the closing crew was sent out to sweep the parking lot and pick up trash while the boss clocked them out, often an hour or two before the employees actually clocked out. Sure it was illegal, not much kids could do about it back then. He also got scheduled late nights when he told the manager he had class early the next day. That lasted about a month before he went to Mr. Donut, then Kmart. 

There are plenty of unskilled entry level jobs here. It helps if you speak Spanish because there is a huge Mexican population here that refuses to learn English. Stores and factories everywhere here are desperate for people who can pass a drug test and will show up to work on time.

Yes, I read the article. It was written by a reporter who wanted to complain about the sub-human working conditions at fast food joints. If fast food joints were all that terrible I wouldn't see the same people still working there 5 years later. But maybe those people don't count because they are older and have some work ethic like being polite and showing up for their shift on time.

The author specifically wanted to work fast food. She didn't write about how difficult it is to get an unskilled entry level factory job. And she did hint that she was habitually late to work at her previous job. All we have about her being yelled at for being 1 minute late 1 time is her word.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

MichaelZ said:


> My oldest son, still in college, has been at Culver’s about 5 years now. When he told them he might be leaving, they gave him a raise to keep him since he shows up all the time when scheduled. Nobody ever threw anything at him, but one disgruntled ex employee threw hamburgers at the drive through window. The fringe benefit of restaurant work is free or reduced price food - a real plus for a college student.


When my youngest son was in college, I called him and asked what he was up to.
He said "Eating supper"
I said "Oh, what are you having for supper?"
He said "Mayonnaise"
I put some money in his account, he never would ask.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> It's interesting how many folks side with the corporations as opposed to believing that maybe people (including themselves) deserve better work conditions/situation.


There are colors between black and white.
Disagreeing with one's position on this topic doesn't automatically mean that person is siding with corporations.
I can disagree with how my domineering and bossy sister in law in law treats my brother, but that doesn't mean I am taking his side.


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## HappySevenFarm (Jan 21, 2013)

I think it comes down to some people are just wired for the fast food industry and thrive in it and some people are not. Those that are not will complain about everything.


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## edjewcollins (Jun 20, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> What the article states is indisputable, the discussion following it doesn't have much to do with article. That's just fact.


Work is easier now than it's ever been in history. People are just wussies.


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