# Doing my research



## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Hi all,

I am new around here. I got a little excited about talking dogs in a couple other threads, but I'm mostly hear to listen and learn. 

Starting with some background. My first goal is actually to establish a novelty poultry facility on just under 10 acres (weird property line issue caused by septic tanks). I think I can handle predator dissuasion with just about any larger dog, or pair of. Wolves have been seen, but it isn't good habitat for them (too many highways and agitated hunters) and there is no established pack. Coyotes pack up once in a while but they have a fairly healthy fear of hunters and they've probably learned that loud gatherings draws the ire of the Plott Hounds. A couple of guys have reported seeing big groups of strays/ferals running around. I guess I would call my predator load moderate with a fair chance of spiking. 

The housing for the pheasants will be dog/predator secure, so I'm looking at general purpose pups for now rather than pure LGDs.

But...

I am looking at the prospect of reaching about 60-100 acres if I play my cards (cash flow) right. In about 5 years or so, my goal is to be operating mainly as a gamebird producer (pheasant for game farms, and also novelty poultry/eggs), but starting on a few "pet" goats to learn the ins and outs of caring, handling, and producing primarily milk for goat cheese. I do live in the dairy state after all. 

So the problem I'm seeing is that in terms of rural areas, this one is still pretty well populated. In most of Wisconsin, there are a lot of small dairy farms, subdivisions, small towns, lakes surrounded by summer homes, etc.

I'm wondering if I am better off with a group of all purpose English Shepherds, and maybe one bigger dog (GS or American Bully) that can hold it's own against local strays and provide confidence for the ES as defenders. Or would it be worth it to try some of the close-in style LGDs? Too much barking would be a problem for the immediate neighbors, but so far nobody is complaining about the Pyr about a quarter mile off who barks at the coyotes and foxes almost all night. I've never seen him running loose, either.


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

If you are serious about finding out how to protect against large predators then click on the link below and read the information he has posted. He has the most logical approach to me to handle large predators. While I understand your idea of having some LGD's and then a larger backup dog. My personal opinion is to create more of a pack of your own and they will hunt and fight as a pack, but the link will explain things much better than I can here. 

http://www.lgdnevada.com/How_Many_LGD_s_to_Run_.html


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Thanks Muleman. I'm pretty concerned about the flight pens for the pheasants. My friend got wiped out once early on by something. I can't really afford an early wipe. I'd feel a lot better with dogs around. I know ES/Farm Collies are easy to train on rules, just not sure if they're up to the coyote challenge. Sounds like I need to really do my research to train the true LGDs on bird duty. Checked out that link and even they seem to have stopped training their puppies on birds. Let alone pheasants.

Anyone here keep LGDs inside a perimeter to guard gamefowl flight pens?


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I really think your real problem would be with stray dogs. Use electric fencing. Small dogs will jump between the wires, so you need the bottom wires to be closer together. 

I have a couple of neighbors who raise pheasants and have large flight pens. I really don&#8217;t know what kind of dogs they have. I would have electric netting around the flight pen, 4 feet high. What the dog or coyote see then are two fences. They will challenge one, they won&#8217;t try to jump over two.

English shepherd/farm collies are collies. They will bite if sufficiently provoked, but they are not used as guard dogs. A wolf or coyote needs to be deterred rather than killed. A karakash might work well for you. You want the dog to stay near the homestead, presumably where the pens are. You don&#8217;t want an LGD that protects a hundred acres because you don&#8217;t want the 100 acres protected you want the birds protected. You now only have ten acres, so again you don&#8217;t want a dog that is protecting 100 acres. 

People say LGD&#8217;s will not bond with birds. However, since the birds aren&#8217;t free ranging, you just need to keep predators away from the pens. Don&#8217;t forget about raccoons and foxes. Coyotes and wolves are likely to eat the raccoons and opossums, but if you don&#8217;t have one, you have the other. Electricity.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Maura, thanks, going to take your advice all the way on the electricity. I want to scrounge the local hoarders for some chain-link, too. I think if I anchor it flat to the ground around the pen, that should make digging a bit more challenging for foxes/*****/badgers. It should at least force them to start further out from the pen and give me a chance to spot them.

I definitely want to dissuade predators rather than create confrontations. I loved my Farm Collie when I was a kid, but yea I don't think they'd be much of a deterrent. I'll look into that Karakash. If I can find some serious pups who won't mind staying on 10 acres, that would be great. It sounds like most of the LGDs would be tempted to wander, and I get the feeling I would need something for them to bond to in the yard or they will want to be inside the house with us at night. Thinking about some GS, too.

Are Karakash pretty rare? I found Bulgarian Sheepdogs (Karakachan), but google didn't find anything for Karakash.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I think I meant Karakachan. motdaugrnds has one. If you read through her posts she writes quite a bit about her karakachan, Valentina. She only has about six acres.

I never had fox or opossum or raccoons dig under the electric. They will touch the fence and that seems to be enough. Wouldn&#8217;t hurt to lay fencing on the ground, though.

If you need a guard for the pens you could even consider a couple of dobermanns. They will protect the property. However, they are bred to be a part of the family and aren&#8217;t dogs you should leave outside all day and night. If you had a pair you can have one inside with the family while the other is outside. Or, if you are with them all day they can be outside at night. They are also great deterrents for two legged rascals.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Thanks for the suggestions guys, feel like I am on the track. Looking forward to following the discussions around here for some more input!


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