# Hackamore



## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

Interested? This trailer might show you a little bit about the hackamore and how it is used effectively. This might be a good place to start a conversation about the subject if there is any interest. I find myself constantly trying to learn more about the hackamore psychology and use.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYrRz58Ve_c[/ame]


Have fun, be safe

Jack


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I enjoy watching Martin Black's videos.

You know what's hard to find? A bosal that will fit a Percheron. :hysterical:


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Grew up riding western and I've used a hackamore quite a lot. Had one horse that absolutely worked better in one than in any kind of a bit, but everything I've had for years has had to go english rather than western, so don't have anything now other than snaffle bits.


----------



## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

I loved my appy that loved his hackamore. Perfect match for him And sooo nice to not have to warm up a frozen bit in MN winters


----------



## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

Finding a bosal for a percheron is likely similar to finding a half breed in Ohio, lol.

Here's a vid to compare, 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HfnJ6lRBaA[/ame]

Seem's to me that there is quite the difference in both the mechanics of the bosal and the use of the rider. I suspect that this horse might lose some hair on the nose if he's ridden much in this setup.

Have fun, be safe

Jack


----------



## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I wonder if he's "in the mouth" as heavily as he is with the hackamore? Such a sweet looking mare and very patient with him. I liked the first video a lot better - the softer you are, the softer they are and no more pressure than necessary to get the response you need, then a good release. That's good training to me.


----------



## bergere (May 11, 2002)

I ride in Bitless bridles like this one.... with my grey mare Dyfra. She has been taught to work mostly off my seat.


----------



## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

The rider in the second vid is Al Dunning who is a well respected reining trainer while the first vid shows Martin Black who is considered a true bridle horseman.

When I watch the mechanics of the hackamore in Al Dunnings ride, it appears that the bosal isn't made correctly or maybe isn't shaped to fit the horses face. When I compare the bosals action on the nose it appears to me that Dunnings bosal has buttons (the bumps where the headstall attach) which are too low. I think this is what causes the bosal to pivot so much. From what I've learned I don't believe there should be any movement or rotation on the nose at all. I also don't like the visible gap in the cheek area and suspect that the bosal is either to stiff, or wasn't shaped to fit the horses face.

I really like the exercise that Martin Black does from the ground. The understanding that the horse obtains in that ground exercise seems to lead to the ability to "double" in a straight line which is a very useful tool to have.

Side pulls and rope halters operate much more like a snaffle bridle and I don't believe can be compared to the mechanics of a true hackamore. Similar maybe but the mechanics don't seem the same to me, though I admitedly have no experience with the sidepull and it's operation. Would like to know more about there use and function if anyone cares to share their experiences with the mechanics and operation of this type of head gear. 

There does seem to be some interest in the subject of hackamores and there use. I find them very useful myself though like many subjects they are often misunderstood. In the words of Tom Dorrance, "Observe, compare, remember". These two vids offer a good chance to do that.

Have fun, be safe

Jack


----------



## bergere (May 11, 2002)

To me, the equipment above is a Bosal, not a hackamore. At least the way I was taught way back when.

Yes, with the Lodgeropes bitless, you can either direct rein... or neck rein just like you can do with the Bosal.
The lodgeropes mechanics are a bit different than a snaffle. The rope on the nose functions a lot like the top of a Bosal. 
You can clip the reins to the side or underneath. 
I find you have to have a better trained horse, to get the most out of something like the Lodgeropes, compared to the Bosal.

Seen many improperly fitting Bosals over the years. And I find they are very harsh if not used properly.


----------



## JPiantedosi (Apr 23, 2012)

bergere said:


> To me, the equipment above is a Bosal, not a hackamore. At least the way I was taught way back when.
> 
> Yes, with the Lodgeropes bitless, you can either direct rein... or neck rein just like you can do with the Bosal.
> The lodgeropes mechanics are a bit different than a snaffle. The rope on the nose functions a lot like the top of a Bosal.
> ...


^^^Yes^^^. I was tought that a Hackamore looks more like a bitless walking horse set up, with long shanks and a braided nose piece. We will some times use one to work on head set between the sidepull and introducing a bit. 

Jim


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

The main category "Hackamore" has subcategories like: bosal, mechanical hackamore, and sidepull. Each of the subcategories have categories too.

I've always said bosal instead of hackamore too, I usually only use the term hackamore for a mechanical hack.


----------



## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

My personal interest is hackamores as used to develop a bridle horse. There is a lot of confusion in the terminology between different types of bitless "contraptions", lol. Martin Black defines the hackamore as a large diameter "bosal" (larger than 1/2 inch), a bosal as 1/2 inch or smaller and ridden with a two rein, and a bosalita as a pencil thin bosal with not reins attached and worn with a bridle horse. Ernie Morris seems to use the same definition and I suspect he knows of what he speaks.

http://www.elvaquero.com/The%20Hackamore.htm

Here's another vid. to compare how they are used by different riders. The rider is Larry Trocha, another cutting/reining trainer that has many achievements in western riding. 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2XVcQr97y4[/ame]

Another rider, this one bridle horseman Cody Deering, which shows how each pull of the rein is used with meaning by somebody considered a hackamore man.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rZiQYXM970[/ame]

Ed Connell wrote a couple of books on hackamore training and use. At one time it was the only written discription available but since the rebirth of Vaquero style horsemen today there is a lot more information available.

http://www.amazon.com/Hackamore-Reinsman-Ed-Connell/dp/0964838508

I can't see the lodgeropes sidepull in operation so can't compare it to a true hackamore. I myself would call it a rope halter though I know many that consider that a hackamore since it's bitless and has reins attached. What I call mechanical hackamore is the type Jim describes and I see it often used by barrel racers as well as walking horse folks.

Confusing subject to understand due to the many different interpretations and types of headgear called a hackamore. To me a hackamore is the type used to develop a horse in the manner of a bridle horse though it has become quite fasionable in western reining and cowhorse riding. If you like the horsemenship and philosphy of people like Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Martin Black, Buck Brannamen etc. then likely you will be using the methods developed by these true hackamore horsemen. Observe, compare and discuss is why I started this thread and I hope those interested will jump in and share their views and ideas of the use of a hackamore in western riding.

Have fun, be safe

Jack


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

You don't see the bosal around so much anymore. Usually when someone says hackamore they are talking about the mechanical hackamore - long metal shanks, curb chain, no mouthpiece. Or maybe an English hackamore with shorter shanks, leather noseband, leather curb.

Where I lived in south Texas, the bosal or bosalito/bosalita was the braided rawhide noseband-like portion. The mecate is the reins/lead. The hanger is the headstall. The fiador is the throatlach. The hackamore or jaquima is the whole combination of bosal/hanger/reins/throatlach. 

If someone had shown me a picture of your setup, Bergere, I would have called it a rope halter that had extra loops on the sides for reins.


----------



## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I really don't know anything about the bosal and only have a vague idea what a "bridle horse" is - do you have any videos of the finished horses working? I'd really like to see that.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

It's only because of Ed Connell's Hackamore Reinsman that I know anything at all about bosals and bosal training. They just aren't common in my area and I only know of one trainer (and she may not even be training any longer) that consistently used one.


----------



## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

GrannyCarol said:


> I really don't know anything about the bosal and only have a vague idea what a "bridle horse" is - do you have any videos of the finished horses working? I'd really like to see that.


GrannyCarol, I'm glad you joined in here since I know you've studied Clinton Anderson a bit and I think you might find some of (IMO) what he lacks in his methods (ie feel and balance) in learning more of Vaquero/Califonio horsemenship. These practices are also found in what many term classical dressage.

Here's a couple of vids. of finished horses and a bit of info about how they operate.

Martin Black, on the bridle horse

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFmRus56miQ[/ame]

Buck Brannaman, riding a horse "full up in the bridle".

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES7YG8sh9LU[/ame]

One problem with discussing bridle horses and the tack used is the common misconception about "spade bits" and how they are used. If used correctly both the hackamore (bosal) and the spade bit operate on signals rather than leverage. This a confusing difference but is critical to understanding how these riders prepare and ride their horses. It's humorous that some would think a hackamore horse is lesser trained than a dressage horse but some do believe that to be true. A good hackamore or bridle horse can be operated without any reins though as Buck Brannaman says, "I better never see you do so", lol. There is a pride in these bridle horsemen that is evident whenever you see one operating their horses. 

The steps in creating these horses are steeped in history and involve a few years in the making. First a snaffle, then the hackamore, then the two rein and finaly full up in the bridle. In the old days the snaffle bit stage was skipped and their are many horsemen today that still start a horse in the hackamore. The finished product is the same though if the horsemen are skilled in their abilities.

Me, I'm stuck at the hackamore stage but find myself inching ever closer to the day when I will attempt the two rein. 

Have fun, be safe

Jack


----------



## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

jennigrey said:


> You don't see the bosal around so much anymore. Usually when someone says hackamore they are talking about the mechanical hackamore - long metal shanks, curb chain, no mouthpiece. Or maybe an English hackamore with shorter shanks, leather noseband, leather curb.
> 
> Where I lived in south Texas, the bosal or bosalito/bosalita was the braided rawhide noseband-like portion. The mecate is the reins/lead. The hanger is the headstall. The fiador is the throatlach. The hackamore or jaquima is the whole combination of bosal/hanger/reins/throatlach.
> 
> If someone had shown me a picture of your setup, Bergere, I would have called it a rope halter that had extra loops on the sides for reins.


jennigrey, your mentioning south Texas made me think of Tom Moorhouse who owns the Pitchfork Ranch "down there". When I watch him ride in his Texas ranch horse gear I always wonder what he would think of the buckaroo's of the great basin and their jaquima and spade bit. I can almost hear him saying, "what the hell would you need all that hardware for", lol. There definately is a difference in the way the horsemen of different locations think and work their horses. I love them all myself and am thankful that the internet has made so much available to me in Ohio.

To carry on the hackamore topic maybe we should look at the two rein and how the transition from bosal to bridle is accomplished. Once again it's Martin Black demonstrating.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5X7iss69II[/ame]

Though people may think the hackamore/bosal isn't being used in their area I believe you will find it common today in any western event or large aqha show. The way it is operated/used though is quite different depending on the purpose and goals of the rider.

Have fun, be safe

Jack


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

levi1739 said:


> Though people may think the hackamore/bosal isn't being used in their area I believe you will find it common today in any western event or large aqha show. The way it is operated/used though is quite different depending on the purpose and goals of the rider.
> 
> Have fun, be safe
> 
> Jack


I'm sorry, I thought you meant actually _using_ a bosal as a training device! Not just as a means of keeping a young horse in green horse classes longer.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Oh, I do see some bosals at shows, but it seems like most of them wear it like a costume piece, like the braided hobbles they carry on the saddle or the for-looks-only reata. They aren't really trained to it and the rider doesn't really _use _it. Heck, they store the mecate on the bosal and it goes all crimped.

I don't generally see bosals at rodeos. Not since many years ago in Texas.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm sorry, I thought you meant actually _using_ a bosal as a training device! Not just as a means of keeping a young horse in green horse classes longer.


Hah, exactly.


----------



## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm sorry, I thought you meant actually _using_ a bosal as a training device! Not just as a means of keeping a young horse in green horse classes longer.





jennigrey said:


> Oh, I do see some bosals at shows, but it seems like most of them wear it like a costume piece, like the braided hobbles they carry on the saddle or the for-looks-only reata. They aren't really trained to it and the rider doesn't really _use _it. Heck, they store the mecate on the bosal and it goes all crimped.
> 
> I don't generally see bosals at rodeos. Not since many years ago in Texas.


I'm not sure what either of you are talking about. I'm just a country boy though so maybe you could share how a bosal, hobbles or reata would be used in a rodeo or to extend green horse classes? I do see a lot of tie downs in rodeo events and they certainly look like a bosal if that's what you mean.

Have fun, be safe

Jack


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I think you can figure it out.


----------



## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

Tom Dorrance said, "though I think you think you know what I'm talking about, I'm not certain that you understand what it is I'm talking about".

In his later years Tom was asked why he didn't ride full up in the bridle anymore. He stated, "I've found that I can accomplish all that I need in a snaffle bit".

Have fun, be safe

Jack


----------



## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

My background was as a kid riding English with a strong Dressage side. I wasn't a great horseman, didn't win a lot at shows, wasn't particularly brave at jumping or even very coordinated. I loved my horses though and spent a lot of hours on them. I enjoyed schooling and would ride the local trails to a nice big outdoor arena and do my training there. Watching Buck talk about cadence and knowing where your horse's feet were was such a flashback.  Although I am almost 60 and quite overweight, I remember so clearly what it was like knowing where my horse's feet were and what they were doing, it's like I'm in the saddle again.

I got a little QH gelding when I was about 16 and had him a couple of years. He was a really cute little horse, pretty bulldog in build with a heavy front and rather upside down neck. He didn't know how to trot at all (and his trot was awful), seemed to know how to walk and canter in little circles. His mouth was dead to the snaffle. In my mind, that meant I needed to retrain him to the snaffle before I would consider a curb of any sort. In the end he was light and sensitive to the snaffle and would wear a curb (nothing fancy) for a local Western Pleasure class and would respond to my weight and my legs. His neck was reformed and his back and hind quarters were strong enough to carry him, he was largely up off his front. 

I miss really being able to ride. I miss Star that we lost a few years back. I didn't do anything but walk around on her and start to remember a bit of balance and get over a lot of fear because my balance and coordination are so bad now. I did find that when she tensed up my old reflexes to immediately relax deep into the horse are still there though. I remember the feel. 

I like to see what horsemen are doing. I don't mind Clinton Anderson for beginners, its a start to learning feel and timing and what to look for. There is a ton more than that to learn, riding is a conversation with your horse. Of course I'm an old has been as a rider, more mental than capable. I do love watching a horse that is in tune with its rider in that active cooperation, whether jumping, Dressage or western.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I've grown up behind the chutes and there are very few horsemen in rodeo anymore. It's a big business sport with a lot of high end horses bought and sold but very few are actually trained by the person riding it. I honestly doubt if very few rodeo cowboys actually know what a mecate looks like, how it's used and a riata is ill suited to a rodeo arena because they aren't made for those hard snaps in timed events. 

Those pieces originate with the Vaquero and are still used by working cowboys and probably always will be because they are better suited to the working lifestyle and guys that are training good working horses.


----------



## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

GrannyCarol said:


> My background was as a kid riding English with a strong Dressage side. I wasn't a great horseman, didn't win a lot at shows, wasn't particularly brave at jumping or even very coordinated. I loved my horses though and spent a lot of hours on them. I enjoyed schooling and would ride the local trails to a nice big outdoor arena and do my training there. Watching Buck talk about cadence and knowing where your horse's feet were was such a flashback.  Although I am almost 60 and quite overweight, I remember so clearly what it was like knowing where my horse's feet were and what they were doing, it's like I'm in the saddle again.
> 
> I got a little QH gelding when I was about 16 and had him a couple of years. He was a really cute little horse, pretty bulldog in build with a heavy front and rather upside down neck. He didn't know how to trot at all (and his trot was awful), seemed to know how to walk and canter in little circles. His mouth was dead to the snaffle. In my mind, that meant I needed to retrain him to the snaffle before I would consider a curb of any sort. In the end he was light and sensitive to the snaffle and would wear a curb (nothing fancy) for a local Western Pleasure class and would respond to my weight and my legs. His neck was reformed and his back and hind quarters were strong enough to carry him, he was largely up off his front.
> 
> ...


Earlier you noticed that Al Dunning seemed a little heavy handed in the hackamore. That struck my interest and I wondered if you are aware that Clinton Anderson apprenticed with Al Dunning when Clinton first came to the USA. This is where Clinton learned reining and I think the comparison is telling when I watch the vid of Dunning in that hackamore ride.

And I too still recommend Clinton Anderson for inexperienced horsemen, lol. 


Have fun, be safe

Jack


----------



## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

wr said:


> I've grown up behind the chutes and there are very few horsemen in rodeo anymore. It's a big business sport with a lot of high end horses bought and sold but very few are actually trained by the person riding it. I honestly doubt if very few rodeo cowboys actually know what a mecate looks like, how it's used and a riata is ill suited to a rodeo arena because they aren't made for those hard snaps in timed events.
> 
> Those pieces originate with the Vaquero and are still used by working cowboys and probably always will be because they are better suited to the working lifestyle and guys that are training good working horses.


You're probably right about rodeo cowboys and their horsemenship. Ty Murray is one that I know rides a hackamore. You probably see a lot of hackamore and bridle horses up you way. One thing that they have is a lot of hours in the saddle and plenty of horses to work with.

It's not like that here lol. I'm surrounded by lot's of riders that have plenty of experience in doing things the not better way, 

Have fun, be safe

Jack


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wr said:


> I've grown up behind the chutes and there are very few horsemen in rodeo anymore. It's a big business sport with a lot of high end horses bought and sold but very few are actually trained by the person riding it. I honestly doubt if very few rodeo cowboys actually know what a mecate looks like, how it's used and a riata is ill suited to a rodeo arena because they aren't made for those hard snaps in timed events.
> 
> Those pieces originate with the Vaquero and are still used by working cowboys and probably always will be because they are better suited to the working lifestyle and guys that are training good working horses.


There are very few horsemen in the AQHA show pens either- it's big business too, sadly.


----------



## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

A little more about the hackamore and bridlehorse philosphy. I love the way of going when I see a good hackamore horse. Such a simple piece of tack that I love to see used correctly. Wish I was better at it myself.

Sheila Varian,

http://www.horsechannel.com/western-horse-training/vaquero-way-17722.aspx

Nice ride, 5th time in a bosal-


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcUJqLk3_zg[/ame]


Have fun, be safe

Jack


----------



## MikesMate (Feb 26, 2006)

This is slightly off topic, but the 7 Clinics with Buck Brannamon are excellent. He talks alot about developing a good "bridle" horse, a term I'd never heard of. His horses are amazingly soft, when he rides, you never see his cues...unless he's giving you an example of what not to do.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

levi1739 said:


> I'm not sure what either of you are talking about. I'm just a country boy though so maybe you could share how a bosal, hobbles or reata would be used in a rodeo or to extend green horse classes? I do see a lot of tie downs in rodeo events and they certainly look like a bosal if that's what you mean.
> 
> Have fun, be safe
> 
> Jack


I was talking about the reata and hobbles that people attach to their saddle in a show. In some breeds/classes/circuits, if you are using romel reins, you also have to have the braided hobbles and the reata on the saddle. You wouldn't use either one, they are for looks. It is part of the costume. A lot of the horses that I see wearing a bosal at the shows aren't really trained to it. They're just patterned to go around and around at whatever gait. They are wearing the bosal as a part of an overall "look" or to hide a clunky head.

As for Irish Pixie's comment, you get horses competing in the junior classes wearing a bosal even though they have progressed in their training and should be out there competing with their peers wearing a curb bit. Like the 21-year-old high school quarterback out there pummeling the 16 and 17-year-olds.

No, you don't see bosals at rodeos. I don't know what other "western events" there are where a person could see bosals, aside from rodeos and shows. I'm sure there are some working ranches out there where a bosal is being used but that's not the same thing as "seeing" it. I stand by my assertion that you don't really see bosals in use any more, and in most places the word "hackamore" is going to be taken to refer to a mechanical hackamore and not a bosal/mecate setup. Do you see them out your way, levi1739?


----------



## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

MikesMate said:


> This is slightly off topic, but the 7 Clinics with Buck Brannamon are excellent. He talks alot about developing a good "bridle" horse, a term I'd never heard of. His horses are amazingly soft, when he rides, you never see his cues...unless he's giving you an example of what not to do.


That's not off topic at all, more on topic. I have those dvd's and they've led me to change some of my riding habits. Buck Brannamen rides his hackamore horse a lot in those clinics. I'm thinking my next purchase may be Martin Blacks "Round pen to Arena" though there are many others I wish for, lol. MikeysMate was there anything in particular that you liked or didn't like in Brannamens riding and the way he operates a horse? One change I'm making as a result (old habits) is my seat position when asking for the back up. My back up has really improved as a result.

Have fun, be safe

Jack


----------



## levi1739 (Jul 25, 2003)

jennigrey said:


> I was talking about the reata and hobbles that people attach to their saddle in a show. In some breeds/classes/circuits, if you are using romel reins, you also have to have the braided hobbles and the reata on the saddle. You wouldn't use either one, they are for looks. It is part of the costume. A lot of the horses that I see wearing a bosal at the shows aren't really trained to it. They're just patterned to go around and around at whatever gait. They are wearing the bosal as a part of an overall "look" or to hide a clunky head.
> 
> As for Irish Pixie's comment, you get horses competing in the junior classes wearing a bosal even though they have progressed in their training and should be out there competing with their peers wearing a curb bit. Like the 21-year-old high school quarterback out there pummeling the 16 and 17-year-olds.
> 
> No, you don't see bosals at rodeos. I don't know what other "western events" there are where a person could see bosals, aside from rodeos and shows. I'm sure there are some working ranches out there where a bosal is being used but that's not the same thing as "seeing" it. I stand by my assertion that you don't really see bosals in use any more, and in most places the word "hackamore" is going to be taken to refer to a mechanical hackamore and not a bosal/mecate setup. Do you see them out your way, levi1739?


I don't attend many horse shows though I do see bosals in reining and working cow horse events that are held montly in my area. Occassionaly at local 4-h shows a rider may use a bosal, though it's rare. They are also seen quite a bit at the horse sales in my area. I don't attend roping events so I can't comment on rodeo riders, but neither hobbles or reatas are something I've ever noticed. Romel reins I do see quite a bit. 

On the bosal subject and the age of the horse etc. My own beliefs are that snaffles and hackamores should be used based on the riders skill and not the age of the horse. I hate seeing the 4-h kids riding in a curb bit when it's obvious the rider lacks independent hands. My own experience is with three mares I ride in a bosal. One five year old, One six year old, and one seven year old. Doesn't matter to me if I ever ride them in anything else, though they all go well in a snaffle also. 

I'm interested in learning the hackamore and it's use. In the vids I've posted here there is a lot of opportunity to compare. My goal is to gain any bit of knowledge that may lead me to improve my skills in those areas. The internet makes watching different horsemen a great advantage in learning about different events. 


Have fun, be safe

Jack


----------



## MikesMate (Feb 26, 2006)

Jack, I know what you mean about the seat positions, I'm working on that myself. What I like most about Buck's horsemanship is how he is slow and methodical and gives the horses a chance to think for themselves. On the dvd's he also helps people work on their/their horses problems right then and doesn't give them just enough information to get them hurt. Plus, I like it when he doesn't cut people any slack when they cause their own problems with their horses, it didn't take a day to mess them up and it takes longer than a day to fix them.

Plus, I like it when he talks to his horses and rubs on them...without even thinking about it.


----------

