# NAIS - How USDA Uses Your Children and Dollars



## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

http://www.newswithviews.com/Morrison/joyce46.htm

Check out the above link for a pretty good "where the rubber hits the road" on how NAIS will affect you. It also has some good information on what premise registration means.

"_The US Department of Agriculture gave the Future Farmers of America $600,000 to promote Premise ID. The FFAâs goal is to register 50,000 more premises by the partnershipâs end on May 31, 2008, according to Bruce Knight, undersecretary for the USDAâs marketing and regulatory programs in the article ..._"

"_Registering a premises with the Federal government without receiving just compensation constitutes a voluntary surrender of any constitutional rights â right of property and freedom from unreasonable governmental searches â associated with registered premises. _"


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Last year the Michigan Department of Agriculture sent premise numbeers to every farm known to have cattle.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I'm jealous.
The other day I posted a fictitious report about NAIS. I had a blast. Even though it contained several outlandish claims, a few of the devout antiNAIS folks took the bait and ran with it. Several others saw it for what it was and got a laugh out of it.
It lasted for a matter of a few minutes before being censored. 

Still, I got a big laugh out of it and I now understand what fun it must be for the antiNAIS authors that churn out this fiction.

I think I'll open my own web site, fill it with NAIS BS and then post the link here. I guess it doesn't matter if it is factual, just needs to have a link to keep the thread open.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

I don't get the premiss ID thing. Every farm that has ever perticipated in a farm program already has a farm number. One more feel good, look what we done rule that will cost the little guy. It is not a whole lot different then a gun control law.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> I'm jealous.
> The other day I posted a fictitious report about NAIS. I had a blast. Even though it contained several outlandish claims, a few of the devout antiNAIS folks took the bait and ran with it. Several others saw it for what it was and got a laugh out of it.
> It lasted for a matter of a few minutes before being censored.
> 
> ...


You think its funny, but it actually shows your level of maturity. It also shows that you are very partisan in your thinking. You do not take into account from both sides of an arguement. Instead you think those against an issue, is nothing but a joke.

Again, anything you post should be looked at with objection, because it could be a lie. Much like the many posts you have posted for NAIS, are they factual? I question it now, as others should.

Edit: It was censored because it was both flame bait and trolling at its best.. If you aren't careful, you could wind up being banned. Obviously the debates have gotten to you more so than those against it. Usually someone acts like yourself, because they cant win the arguement. It turns into school grade acts.


Jeff


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

She's pretty good at stoking that fire. Some of the stuff listed on there is pretty unbelievable, unless of course you really like to believe that the govt is out to getcha.

If I run a grade A dairy I have to register with the state without recompense..matter of fact I have to pay for the thing. Does that make me open to illegal search and seizures from the state, does it automatically disown me from the states constitution?
Does it automatically stop me from being protected by the states anti animal terrorism laws?


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

So, why do you have to register because you have a dairy? Are you free? 



sammyd said:


> She's pretty good at stoking that fire. Some of the stuff listed on there is pretty unbelievable, unless of course you really like to believe that the govt is out to getcha.
> 
> If I run a grade A dairy I have to register with the state without recompense..matter of fact I have to pay for the thing. Does that make me open to illegal search and seizures from the state, does it automatically disown me from the states constitution?
> Does it automatically stop me from being protected by the states anti animal terrorism laws?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Jeff, you are just mad because you fell for it. It showed me that if it is antiNAIS you'll believe it no matter how wild the claim.

You haven't believed a thing I've written anyway, so why not just make a joke about it? I've gotten tired of plowing the same myths over and over. 

you can name call and you can make false statements, that's just free speech. But if I make fun of the outlandish beliefs held by the antiNAIS folks, it's trolling. Oh, well, let's move on. 

Allen, I'll take you at your word, that you really don't understand the premise concept. The current farm number isn't tied to a location, more of a number so their file can be kept in order with the rest of the folders. Premise ID is tied to the farm location. As premise numbers are added to the data base, with longitude and latitude, the location of the farm is entered. The USDA can tell at a moment, what farms are within a 1/2 mile of a quarantined farm, or a mile or 10 miles. Without this, eventually local USDA staff could plot out a county map, using postal addresses, but that takes time and time is money. Also some farms are not at the postal addresses, like when people live in town and operate a farm miles away. 

Sammyd, you and I know your questions are rhetorical, but when addressing people that believe the USDA is requiring children get chips implanted, USDA Inspectors can shoot animals on sight and premise IDs are being traded to China, you really need to include the correct answers to those questions. Some people are coming up with different answers from what you know to be false.

For over a year, there have been scores of false claims against NAIS. I have addressed those claims, often several times, but those followers of noNAIS, Liberty Ark and R-CALF keep drinking the Kool-Aid. No one has changed their position. 

I posted a fictitious news report, containing many of the claims posted on Homesteadingtoday. Those that accept NAIS thought it was funny. Those that have bought into the antiNAIS propaganda believed it's outlandish claims and then were angered that they were duped. I never intended to make anyone look foolish. Sorry.

I'll stop what was seen as trolling and I welcome you to question everything I write. But in the interest of fairness, perhaps you should question everything in the antiNAIS web sites, too.


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

"_I think I'll open my own web site, fill it with NAIS BS and then post the link here. I guess it doesn't matter if it is factual, just needs to have a link to keep the thread open._"
*
I think you spread enough of that around here? Why go to the trouble of opening your own web site?*



haypoint said:


> Jeff, you are just mad because you fell for it. It showed me that if it is antiNAIS you'll believe it no matter how wild the claim.
> 
> *What is an example of one "wild claim"?*
> 
> ...


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

> I don't get the premiss ID thing. Every farm that has ever perticipated in a farm program already has a farm number. One more feel good, look what we done rule that will cost the little guy.


What about farms that have not participated? How about farms that are owned by someone that does not actually run the farm or even live near the farm? 
What about the small guy with 5 cow/calf pairs he raises for a little extra pocket money? He might like to know that something is floating around the neighborhood so he can have his animals tested and maybe step up his bio safety program.

As for the article it seems to be a bunch of he said she said with very little facts to back anything up.
Fair attendees noticed kids being bribed with burgers and such to sign up for a premisis ID, yet


> (It is unknown who was behind this unscrupulous act.)


 LOL scaremongering at it's finest no worse than anything haypoint might have done with his imaginary stuff (which I'm kinda sorry I missed)



> For years health papers are required for the exhibited animals and the papers have all the needed information to track the animal.


Who keeps the copies of the papers? Are they accessible 24/7? What if the person in charge of the copies is on vacation for a couple of weeks and the rest of the fair board doesn't know where they are kept?

Brands? Same thing. Are you able to access a database of brands nationwide? What about brands that may be similar or even the same but used in different states?



> Below is a âTop 10â list in opposition to premises registration, compiled by R-CALF USAâs Animal ID Committee:


None of which are backed up with any sort of documentation.

But it would seem that haypoint discovered that documentation isn't needed anyway.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Jeff, you are just mad because you fell for it. It showed me that if it is antiNAIS you'll believe it no matter how wild the claim.


Hardly. Something as childish as that post wont make me mad. It showed your level of maturity. Again it was trolling and flame bait. Its why the mods deleted the thread..


Jeff


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Hay point your right the farm numbers from the FSA office wouldn't work. It would take five separate premise id numbers to cover the two farm numbers on the ground I have rented and another for here at the place where I live. Every time I moved animals or took a horse to check cattle I would have to report in. Never mind about the times I don't see them for a week at a time and one has been out over the 24 hour report in time for movement. It is a good idea on paper but most people have no idea the impact it is going to have on farmers and ranchers going about there daily business.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Allen,
I sounds like you have a good handle on the original Draft from a few years ago. I wish you'd spend some time in the hear and now.

If you have a spread that needs five different premise numbers, you must be among the "Big Guys" that the antiNAIS claim are exempt?

Besides clinging to obsolete NAIS information, you are holding dear the belief that it can't work in the Real World. Michigan has been operating a RFID system since last March 1st. You want a Real World example,you've got it. It is in place and it works. It has already been utilized to trace back diseases. 

Farmers and ranchers have been going out of business for a long time. I expect they will continue to go out of business. But, NAIS hasn't driven anyone out of business. While the rest of Michigan's economy is on the ropes, beef and dairy farmers here are doing alright.

If I go to the USDA for information on USDA programs, you call it bunk. You go to web sites that post misleading and false statements and think you have all the answers.

While I find it interesting that one state requires premise ID for deer hunting, I didn't see the news article you refer to. Where is it? I fail to see the connection to NAIS. Do tell.

There is a lot of misinformation in this world. There are lots of situations where things aren't so clear cut. I post because I feel the truth is important. If you say all GMO is bad, I might try to explain the benefits. I want people to open their narrow focus. It is important for homesteaders to understand the rest of the world. We all are a part of the world. It is too easy to dream up conspiracy theories when you don't have any idea what goes on off the farm. 

This thread is about 4H requiring premise ID. As long as you think that a premise ID is more than an address, you are buying into the fear mongering. Premise ID just isn't important. It doesn't impact your property.


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## harplade (Jul 14, 2005)

obviously, there are some personal issues on this thread that go back aways and I don't understand. But I can tell you from my own personal research, Haypoint, I don't support anything that the government tells me is for my own good. I don't believe it is 'fear mongering' to be wary of a government official having any type of power over my own property.

Maybe this skepticism comes from being a homeschooler and reading the many lawsuits that have been brought against homeschoolers b/c a government official stuck their nose into someone's personal business. 

I'd like to see a list of reason why you support the NAIS-

Harplade


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Hay point your the one that said each premise ID is tied to location each being registered by longitude and latitude. Five distinct tracts of ground would give you five premise ID numbers. The big guys that are except are the factory farms and they still have to have premise numbers they can use batch numbers as opposed to individual tags. Thats for animals that are kept together in the system as one lot. I am so far from being big that it is laughable.


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

Comments below




haypoint said:


> Allen,
> I sounds like you have a good handle on the original Draft from a few years ago. I wish you'd spend some time in the hear and now.
> 
> *The original draft plan was published in the Federal Register. That is what counts. The subsequent, feel good happy paper put out exempting private farms was NOT.*
> ...


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Whats the point of NAIS if they dont track EVERYTHING, that being farm animal. It becomes pointless if they pick and choose.


I received the entry form for it, and I love how you can market your animals easier (yawn), increases value with NAIS. Tell that to the people who were selling registered dairy cattle for 30-50-70 and over $100k this past year WITHOUT NAIS. I also would expect to see a jump in beef by 20-30 dollars a cwt, above any record high. If beef never goes up, nothing is effected price wise, it will be once again more BS.


Jeff


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

The value of dairy cows depends on demand for milk. The demand for milk depends on consumer confidence. 

The value of beef cows depends on the demand for beef, foreign and domestic. The demand for beef, foreign and domestic depends on consumer confidence.

Unchecked, widespread disease effects consumer confidence. NAIS helps track down diseased livestock by pinpointing the potentially exposed livestock.


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## travlnusa (Dec 12, 2004)

haypoint said:


> The value of dairy cows depends on demand for milk. The demand for milk depends on consumer confidence.
> 
> The value of beef cows depends on the demand for beef, foreign and domestic. The demand for beef, foreign and domestic depends on consumer confidence.
> 
> Unchecked, widespread disease effects consumer confidence. NAIS helps track down diseased livestock by pinpointing the potentially exposed livestock.


I could not agree more. We have ID numbers on just about everything we buy. We all loved to point at China plants last year for lead paint in toys, but yet we dont want to be able to find out where our food came from? We want to know if our veggies came from a country that allows the use of chemical X, but not our pork chops? I want to buy USA made stuff when I can, but we dont want anyone to know if our T-bones are from this country or not? We demand to know the conditions that our drugs are produced in, but we dont want to know the same about our chicken wings?

I sell beef direct to customers. One of the reasons they are willing to pay my sky high prices is that they know where it came from. If there is a problem it was either my farm/slaughter house/locker. They like the idea of being able to know exactly where their food was on what day. 

I know the one arguement is that the goverment does not need to know if you have critters or not. Well, I hate to tell you this, but go to your local ag extention office. Ask to see the most up to date overhead shots of your land. You can tell what kids were outside that day. So unless you keep them under cover (chickens?) they already know if you have horses, cows, corn, hay, sheep, etc.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

That is true. and so what if they do? You buy feed? they know, you buy farm supples? they know, you buy seed? they know So what. They the government has known for many years just who you are what you are and where you are. You may THINK you are hidden, but by golly do some hard checking into records, and believe me THEY know.
So what the Premises ID? no big deal the number has not one thing to do with YOU and everything is about whee the animals are being kept in case of a disease outbreak, which is a good thing.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

haypoint said:


> Allen,
> I sounds like you have a good handle on the original Draft from a few years ago. I wish you'd spend some time in the hear and now.


It sounds like you understand how invasive the original draft was. *That original draft tells us where they intend to go with NAIS.* They tried to keep it secret until it was too late for anyone to stop it, but word got out and the public outrage was so high that THEY had to back up on some of their demands, they softened it to get their foot in the door. Once they can get established, then it'll be GOTCHA! 

They changed it to say that it will be voluntary and nobody will be forced to register. But they also say it won't work unless EVERYONE is registered. That obviously means they have every intention of forcing everyone to register at some point in the future. Otherwise by their own admission they would be wasting tons of our tax dollars to run a program that, by their own admission, won't work. 

We know where they are going with it and we don't want to go there. Some people come along praising the program and ridiculing those of us who don't want it. 

It's really that simple.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> The value of dairy cows depends on demand for milk. The demand for milk depends on consumer confidence.
> 
> The value of beef cows depends on the demand for beef, foreign and domestic. The demand for beef, foreign and domestic depends on consumer confidence.
> 
> Unchecked, widespread disease effects consumer confidence. NAIS helps track down diseased livestock by pinpointing the potentially exposed livestock.


You really dont understand the registered cattle market do you? Its why you think it will make a difference with NAIS, but it wont. To clue you in..

WHAT PEOPLE SPEND ON ANIMALS WITH PEDIGREES HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MILK PRICES. Its called MARKETING. People want to turn around, and sell embryos and calves from that elite family. They do not worry about the milk. Do you honestly think someone spending 30k on a heifer is worried about her milk production? I am in that business. I have started to flush cows, as in super ovulation drugs, as in using recips etc etc. We picked up a heifer for 25k, I did not buy her for milk. I bought her to sell heifers. NAIS will not boost her heifers prices ONE SINGLE BIT. What will make her heifers valuable, is what she ends up scoring, and I wont get into classification here because its WAYY over many that visit this sites heads. If what she is carrying is red and a heifer, it could very well be as valuable as what I paid for her, perhaps more (depending on the market). However, someone buying that heifer, and mind you, she needs to be fancy as well. Will not be buying her because of the milk. They will be buying her because of her family, and the fact they will flush her and make more red ones (hopefully).. People spending upwards of 100k on a cow, or heifer are not buying that one either for milk. Do you honestly think (honesty isn't your virtue), they are buying her for milk? You would NEVER make back anywhere near as close to what you spend on an animal in milk. ITS IMPOSSIBLE.


Some simply buy heifers/cows to show, and to flush and to sell. The only time you buy for milk is if you spend MAX two grand. That will be profitable in a few years, but 10k+, you would be a fool to think you would make that back in milk.


As far as beef prices go. The way they tout and including yourself, NAIS is that it will increase the marketability with your beef, your price will go up. That is a downright lie. NAIS or not NAIS, if the demand is not there, and its oversupplied (and its the big guys who oversupply), it will drop prices. Specialty markets is where you get your demand, and mark YOUR own price. It is the only way to make sufficent money. Going with market prices, wont help you much, unless you are prepared to gamble.

But you FINALLY admitted to NAIS's purpose. IT IS FOR THE CONSUMER. Like every little, retarded program that government comes up with. NAIS is not designed to protect farmers, disease will not be stopped with NAIS. Even in the little pamphlet that comes with the sign up form, points out it will trace back to disease. But mentions nothing about dealing with disease that keeps spreading. There is NO solution to that problem.

Again the sheeple will be led to beleive "we are being protected". When in fact, disease could easily spread, outbreak occurs, people get sick.. 

Haypoint, do you work for the government? Because usually people who are for a program as much as you, a program that has not been tested, has some sort of agenda. Perhaps worked for the government, works for, maybe gets a kick back..


Jeff


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Spinner said:


> It sounds like you understand how invasive the original draft was. *That original draft tells us where they intend to go with NAIS.* They tried to keep it secret until it was too late for anyone to stop it, but word got out and the public outrage was so high that THEY had to back up on some of their demands, they softened it to get their foot in the door. Once they can get established, then it'll be GOTCHA!
> 
> They changed it to say that it will be voluntary and nobody will be forced to register. But they also say it won't work unless EVERYONE is registered. That obviously means they have every intention of forcing everyone to register at some point in the future. Otherwise by their own admission they would be wasting tons of our tax dollars to run a program that, by their own admission, won't work.
> 
> ...


If the program was truely voluntary. They would not send you a form WITHOUT you asking for one to sign up. That is not voluntary. Voluntary is calling up, and requesting the form. Its their little way to get you to sign up, and being stamped USDA. It scares people.

Mandatory in its own right.


Jeff


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

Wait Jeff I thought NAIS was for big ag not the consumer.......


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

sammyd said:


> Wait Jeff I thought NAIS was for big ag not the consumer.......[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> NAIS is for big ag, as well as the consumer. The consumer is made aware of a program that tags each animal. Joe consumer says "oh im protected now, the government keeps track of disease (which isn't true, since NAIS only is effective in tracing back)". Big ag benefits because it helps open their market internationally.
> ...


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

We have no wide spread disease. The systems we have in place have stopped that. This begs the question, why do you and the government want consumers to be wary of the food they eat?



haypoint said:


> The value of dairy cows depends on demand for milk. The demand for milk depends on consumer confidence.
> 
> The value of beef cows depends on the demand for beef, foreign and domestic. The demand for beef, foreign and domestic depends on consumer confidence.
> 
> Unchecked, widespread disease effects consumer confidence. NAIS helps track down diseased livestock by pinpointing the potentially exposed livestock.


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

So... tell me if I'm following your line of thought. Since the government is already spying on us and they already know what we have, we should contract with the government to have them deeper into our business?



travlnusa said:


> I could not agree more. We have ID numbers on just about everything we buy. We all loved to point at China plants last year for lead paint in toys, but yet we dont want to be able to find out where our food came from? We want to know if our veggies came from a country that allows the use of chemical X, but not our pork chops? I want to buy USA made stuff when I can, but we dont want anyone to know if our T-bones are from this country or not? We demand to know the conditions that our drugs are produced in, but we dont want to know the same about our chicken wings?
> 
> I sell beef direct to customers. One of the reasons they are willing to pay my sky high prices is that they know where it came from. If there is a problem it was either my farm/slaughter house/locker. They like the idea of being able to know exactly where their food was on what day.
> 
> I know the one arguement is that the goverment does not need to know if you have critters or not. Well, I hate to tell you this, but go to your local ag extention office. Ask to see the most up to date overhead shots of your land. You can tell what kids were outside that day. So unless you keep them under cover (chickens?) they already know if you have horses, cows, corn, hay, sheep, etc.


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

That is exactly what NAIS is for. The big guys will know who has what and know when it will probably be coming to market. Gov.thugs will also know what the little guy has when things get bad.



sammyd said:


> Wait Jeff I thought NAIS was for big ag not the consumer.......


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

What makes me concerned is why the concern for disease all of a sudden, when we dont have a problem at the moment. As I have said before, it seems awfully strange its being pushed at a time they are moving the Hoof and Mouth lab to Kansas. What is more concerning over that, is the fact that the major beef operations are out that way.


Jeff


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

JeffNY said:


> You really dont understand the registered cattle market do you? Its why you think it will make a difference with NAIS, but it wont. To clue you in..
> 
> WHAT PEOPLE SPEND ON ANIMALS WITH PEDIGREES HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MILK PRICES. Its called MARKETING. People want to turn around, and sell embryos and calves from that elite family. They do not worry about the milk. Do you honestly think someone spending 30k on a heifer is worried about her milk production? I am in that business. I have started to flush cows, as in super ovulation drugs, as in using recips etc etc. We picked up a heifer for 25k, I did not buy her for milk. I bought her to sell heifers. NAIS will not boost her heifers prices ONE SINGLE BIT. What will make her heifers valuable, is what she ends up scoring, and I wont get into classification here because its WAYY over many that visit this sites heads. If what she is carrying is red and a heifer, it could very well be as valuable as what I paid for her, perhaps more (depending on the market). However, someone buying that heifer, and mind you, she needs to be fancy as well. Will not be buying her because of the milk. They will be buying her because of her family, and the fact they will flush her and make more red ones (hopefully).. People spending upwards of 100k on a cow, or heifer are not buying that one either for milk. Do you honestly think (honesty isn't your virtue), they are buying her for milk? You would NEVER make back anywhere near as close to what you spend on an animal in milk. ITS IMPOSSIBLE.
> 
> ...



Jeff tell me what the mkt. for those high priced cattle would be without some production records in the family. Are you selling them all for beef? Maybe dairy people are just wasting there time on production records since you can make all of your money without milk Why do you bother with milking since you can just put those embryos into beef cows and let them raise the calf. What is a cow with EX conformation and 5000lbs of milk production worth?


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

sammyd said:


> Wait Jeff I thought NAIS was for big ag not the consumer.......


 Of Course it is also for the Consumer. After all THEY are the ONES that buy the goods at their local stores and restaurants~!
Geesh who do you think buys???


> *Source verification *may become a *branding tool for beef product marketers in the future*. McDonaldâs, for instance, would like to say that the beef in a Big Mac comes from an animal that has been treated humanely, *and from a food production system that adheres to strict food safety precautions*.


 This was from an article written back in the the 90s~!


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

Okay, it was written in the 90s. Why aren't they doing it? What is stopping them?



arabian knight said:


> Of Course it is also for the Consumer. After all THEY are the ONES that buy the goods at their local stores and restaurants~!
> Geesh who do you think buys???
> 
> This was from an article written back in the the 90s~!


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

*branding tool for beef product marketers in the future*
Course leave off the part where it says IN THE FUTURE~! Does not give a time frame just says in the future. 
And it takes time for the NAIS to get up and running in all 3 phases. After all THAT is what the NAIS is all about Source Verification, just like ISO was started for information at anytime throughout the process, in this case from farm to slaughter place to store etc.
So right now Mickey D's can't say


> ""that the beef in a Big Mac comes from an animal that has been treated humanely, and from a food production system that adheres to strict food safety precautions.""


 They will have to wait till the USDA gets the NAIS up and running and in full force.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Wanda said:


> Jeff tell me what the mkt. for those high priced cattle would be without some production records in the family. Are you selling them all for beef? Maybe dairy people are just wasting there time on production records since you can make all of your money without milk Why do you bother with milking since you can just put those embryos into beef cows and let them raise the calf. What is a cow with EX conformation and 5000lbs of milk production worth?


You create the record so you can market the animal easier. You do not milk the cow to make money off her milk alone. A cow with a 20k record or 30k record, will make the same if her pedigree is deep. I have seen plenty sell for $$$$ that didn't have oustanding milk records, it was their pedigree. Of course it also depends who is at the sale, and which sale..


I never said her RECORD is not important. I said specifically, she is NOT purchased to make money off the milk..


Jeff


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> *branding tool for beef product marketers in the future*
> Course leave off the part where it says IN THE FUTURE~! Does not give a time frame just says in the future.
> And it takes time for the NAIS to get up and running in all 3 phases. After all THAT is what the NAIS is all about Source Verification, just like ISO was started for information at anytime throughout the process, in this case from farm to slaughter place to store etc.
> So right now Mickey D's can't say They will have to wait till the USDA gets the NAIS up and running and in full force.


The beef in a big mac will still contain deadly bacteria if it is not handled properly IN THE MEAT PACKING PLANT. That is your sole source for E-Coli and salmonella outbreaks..

Remember, if an E-Coli outbreak is traced back to the plant, its because they ate MANURE... Nasty.

NAIS will not stop contaminats from getting in meat. NAIS is not designed to make plants run cleaner, its not called Meat Plant Identification System..

Jeff


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

*What you posted said nothing about NAIS. Why does McDonalds need the government to hold their hand. I thought you were a proud republican? Why do we need fascism (gov control of private resources) to turn a profit?*



arabian knight said:


> *branding tool for beef product marketers in the future*
> Course leave off the part where it says IN THE FUTURE~! Does not give a time frame just says in the future.
> And it takes time for the NAIS to get up and running in all 3 phases. After all THAT is what the NAIS is all about Source Verification, just like ISO was started for information at anytime throughout the process, in this case from farm to slaughter place to store etc.
> 
> ...


*
You repubs sure are a government loving bunch.*


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

McDonalds has required trace back (AKA Source Verification) for a few years now. I've never seen the contract McDonald issues, so I don't know if it is limited to RFID ear tags or if they allow metal tags and a paper trail. 
At the time of McDonalds announcement there was concern that other big beef buyers would follow suit, closing the market to those unable to provide source verification. 
As far as I know, McDonalds hasn't pushed the humane treatment requirement, yet. If it becomes a public issue, you can depend on that becoming a requirement. 

McDonalds isn't interested in trace back because of eColi. Livestock trace back doesn't impact slaughterhouse related bacteria. They became interested around the time of the Mad Cow scare. 

repubs=Republicans=conservative=smaller government

There is no Hoof and Mouth Laboratory. There is a Foreign Diseases Lab on an island on the east coast. It is moving to the heartland because it is so costly getting back and forth to an island. This move will make it lest costly, saving money and helping to slow the growth of the national deficit.

Jeff, the way you explain it, the value of milk doesn't effect your embryo transplant business. Wait a minute, who would you have us believe is buying those high priced elite calves? Stockbrokers, Insurance salesmen? Jeff, they are people in the dairy industry, people that make their money in milk. 

A milk disease would shake public confidence and cause a reduction in consumption. In turn, there would be more milk on the market than could be consumed. Prices for milk would drop, often hard and fast.

If that were to happen, who would be buying those $10,000 Holsteins? The under-financed dairies would fail first, then larger operations. The lowest producing cows would be slaughtered first and then it would progress up from there. Extra cows entering the beef market would depress the beef market, too. Dairy cows that sold for $1500 could sell as low as $3-400 in a glutted market. During a crash like this, do you believe that your market would still command those top prices? That farmers coping with milk prices below their costs to produce will be lining up to get some of those $10,000 calves? Of course not. You would be effected by a drop in consumer confidence.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Jeff, the way you explain it, the value of milk doesn't effect your embryo transplant business. Wait a minute, who would you have us believe is buying those high priced elite calves? Stockbrokers, Insurance salesmen? Jeff, they are people in the dairy industry, people that make their money in milk.
> 
> A milk disease would shake public confidence and cause a reduction in consumption. In turn, there would be more milk on the market than could be consumed. Prices for milk would drop, often hard and fast.
> 
> If that were to happen, who would be buying those $10,000 Holsteins? The under-financed dairies would fail first, then larger operations. The lowest producing cows would be slaughtered first and then it would progress up from there. Extra cows entering the beef market would depress the beef market, too. Dairy cows that sold for $1500 could sell as low as $3-400 in a glutted market. During a crash like this, do you believe that your market would still command those top prices? That farmers coping with milk prices below their costs to produce will be lining up to get some of those $10,000 calves? Of course not. You would be effected by a drop in consumer confidence.


I've already explained it. The registered cattle industry only accounts for 2% or so of the entire dairy industry. That 2% is a big 2%, due to what these animals and even embryos are sold for. Even with the slump in the economy, animals are still selling for a premium.. Because there still is a market for these cattle, and some buying them, are too making $$..

So Again, the milk market is not effecting prices as a whole, because any of those I know buying, make $$$ off of selling animals they sell, not the milk. One person I know sold over 150 head this spring, grossed 1.1 million, averaged 7600 an animal. He went out and bought one for 100k, and has purchased others. He certainly could not have afforded that 100k heifer or others, off a milk check..

Jeff


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## Jennifer L. (May 10, 2002)

JeffNY said:


> I've already explained it. The registered cattle industry only accounts for 2% or so of the entire dairy industry. That 2% is a big 2%, due to what these animals and even embryos are sold for. Even with the slump in the economy, animals are still selling for a premium.. Because there still is a market for these cattle, and some buying them, are too making $$..
> 
> So Again, the milk market is not effecting prices as a whole, because any of those I know buying, make $$$ off of selling animals they sell, not the milk. One person I know sold over 150 head this spring, grossed 1.1 million, averaged 7600 an animal. He went out and bought one for 100k, and has purchased others. He certainly could not have afforded that 100k heifer or others, off a milk check..
> 
> Jeff


That registered cattle market is just an income tax avoidance scheme. It's a tax shelter for the rich. It's got nothing to do with dairying or agriculture in any shape or form except to bilk the government out of tax dollars. 

Jennifer


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I guess if the registered Holstein show stock are selling well, it might be hard for you to see any connection to the dairy market. 
Right now the dairy business is good, demand for milk is good, demand for quality cows is good, demand for top ranked cows is good.
Just for this conversation, let's say for some reason, like a widespread serious outbreak of a zoological milk borne disease, everyone stopped buying milk. Without income from milk, millions of cows would be sent to slaughter. The meat market, overwhelmed by the amount available, would drop their prices. Beef cows would be worth little and the less desirable dairy animals would be worth nothing. 

Are you telling me that there still would be a healthy demand for your high class show stock? Many people would be lining up to pay $6000 for all your calves? You believe that your business is not connected to the dairy industry?

I think this type of thinking is what got the Savings & Loan Business in such trouble. 

Got time for a story? It relates to the S&L bailout, but still fits the supply and demand in the dairy industry:

Once upon a time a man appeared in a village and announced to the villagers that he would buy monkeys for $10 each. 

The villagers, seeing that there were many monkeys around, went out to the forest and started catching them. The man bought thousands at $10 and, as supply started to diminish, the villagers stopped their effort. He next announced that he would now buy 
monkeys at $20 each. This renewed the efforts of the villagers and they started catching monkeys again. Soon the supply diminished even further and people started going back to 
their farms. The offer increased to $25 each and the supply of monkeys became so scarce it was an effort to even find a monkey, let alone catch it! 

The man now announced that he would buy monkeys at $50 each! However, since he had to go to the city on some business, his assistant would buy on his behalf. In the absence of the man, the assistant told the 
villagers: "Look at all these monkeys in the big cage that the man has already collected. I will sell them to you at $35 and when the man returns from the city, you can sell them to him for $50 each." 
The villagers rounded up all their savings and bought all the monkeys for 700 billion dollars. 
They never saw the man or his assistant again, only lots and lots of monkeys! 

We've seen the same thing with the sure fire money maker: Emu production. While interest grew, some folks made it big, but once the supply overtook demand, it crashed. If the demand had continued, people would still be getting $500 for an egg.

With the loss of the horse slaughter market, we now have more horses than buyers. It didn't take long for the price of all horses to drop. Supply and demand at work again. There is an elite segment in this industry. Some horses are selling for top prices, but that section of the horse market has tightened from about 10% to less than .1%. The rest of the horse industry, 99.9% took a big hit. 

A reduction in demand for milk will result in a downturn in the market for all dairy cows. Even those top animals will be effected. Somewhere between those $10,000 heifers and the $1000 cows is a huge dairy market. A downturn in the consumption/demand for milk will hit every segment of this market.

As more and more people see the potential profits in your segment of the dairy industry, demand is sharp. But, as is the case with all things, supply eventually over runs demand. A slowing of the dairy economy will cause that to happen sooner than later.

Admit it or not, you depend on a growing dairy market. You depend on consumer's confidence in safe milk.

NAIS helps maintain consumer confidence. Your livelihood depends on NAIS.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Jennifer L. said:


> That registered cattle market is just an income tax avoidance scheme. It's a tax shelter for the rich. It's got nothing to do with dairying or agriculture in any shape or form except to bilk the government out of tax dollars.
> 
> Jennifer


So I guess those who are selling cattle, more so than buying are bilking the government out of tax dollars? I know my goal isn't that, along with many others I know. Yes, at one point investors would "hide" their money in cattle. Problem is, cattle do diminish in value. Just because someone buys a dairy heifer/cow for 50k, doesn't mean he will get that back. The heifer could be three quartered at calving, scor 75, and end up worth squat. So its more of a money making venture for some, and some do quite well at it.

Besides, whats wrong with bilking the government out of tax dollars? They get too much as it is, and mishandle it in every way possible.

Jeff


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> NAIS helps maintain consumer confidence. Your livelihood depends on NAIS.


Funny, NAIS hasn't existed all the way up till now. It seems just about everyone has done quite well, without it. ALL of a sudden NAIS is going to make such a difference, that if you dont join it, you will fail. Sounds pretty threatening to me.

Consumers are sheep, they will do anything the government tells them. NAIS is a false sence of security, and is another wastefull government program. The prices for beef, dairy, etc are not going to be changed with NAIS, thats BS. If it does, I will be the first to admit it. Problem is, how a program such as NAIS will boost beef prices, is beyond me. It will not increase demand. With the economy going into the dumper, consumer confidence is going along with it. NAIS wont prop anyone up. For the most part, not many of the public actually know what it is. Its why the government sounds all great when they say "NAIS will protect you". When in fact, it does nothing to stop disease, only trace it back..

The dairy market is shrinking, and it doesn't matter how many people buy milk. They dont pay well enough, farms go out. The problem atm, and you seem to misunderstand it. The demand for milk is DOWN. Read it slowly D O W N. Prices are expected to tank in the spring, down to 15, if not lower. There is a 1.5% oversupply right now. People aren't buying as much, because they are pinched.. NAIS will not increase demand in a way to SOAR milk prices. As has always been the case. Price goes up, cows added on. Price drops, cows get sold eventually, then it resets. If only farmers would LEARN to control the market, then price would stay up. For you to say NAIS will boost milk prices, shows what you know of the market..

Again haypoint, do you work for the government? The last time someone defended the government such as yourself, did work for the government.


Jeff


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I don't work for the government. I have transported a lot of cattle to and from local markets. I have friends that are in the Beef transporting business. I have friends that are Veterinarians. I was active in showing Draft Horses. I have ancestors that made their living with beef and dairy cows. I read, I see, I remember.

Perhaps because I'm in northern Michigan, in an area spared from the TB problem, yet close enough to see what happens to farms caught in a disease outbreak. I have a working knowledge of how F.A.I.R. maintains the data base. It's the same data base you use for all your registered Holsteins. I don't know how you can use that and still be afraid of it when used for trace back? 
I have watched the cattle market in Michigan and kept up on changes in the market. I see what a tough job it is to stay in the cattle business and understand that a drop in demand puts a lot of little folks out of business. I want to do everything I can to help keep that market growing. I understand that NAIS isn't the cure-all for everyone any more than embryo transplanting is the get rich method for everyone.

Why do the milk producers run ads on TV promoting milk? It is critical to keep this market from failing. A loss in consumer demand nation-wide would hurt everyone that sells milk. Not just the giant factory farms. 


We haven't had to deal with Mad Cow before. we haven't had the state to state movement of livestock we now have. We haven't had the technology to maintain a national data base that would allow trace back.


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## Jennifer L. (May 10, 2002)

JeffNY said:


> So I guess those who are selling cattle, more so than buying are bilking the government out of tax dollars? I know my goal isn't that, along with many others I know. Yes, at one point investors would "hide" their money in cattle. Problem is, cattle do diminish in value. Just because someone buys a dairy heifer/cow for 50k, doesn't mean he will get that back. The heifer could be three quartered at calving, scor 75, and end up worth squat. So its more of a money making venture for some, and some do quite well at it.
> 
> Besides, whats wrong with bilking the government out of tax dollars? They get too much as it is, and mishandle it in every way possible.
> 
> Jeff


I don't know that there is anything wrong with it. But don't fool yourself that it's anything else except a tax dodge, is all. It's not dairying. It wouldn't exist if the government didn't have tax breaks FOR farmers utilized by people who aren't farmers at all.

Anyway, whatever.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

If government didnt exist anywhere, in any country, Im sure we would all be better off, & learn how to live with our neighbors, be they next door,or in a foreign country.
Now it seems every one gets saddled with endless rules & regulations, & fines. Except china that put melamine in products, that other companies/countrys outsource to them

How dare anyone try small farming & god forbid sell to others.
Where is that irradiated food when you need it.

How dare any one decide what they want to by, & from whom.
In the land of the free, only congress/force of law, backed by lobbiest, who are backed by big companies ,will tell & regulate & sell to you what you can have,for your own good of course.

yummy,where is that gmo corn?


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

"_NAIS helps maintain consumer confidence. Your livelihood depends on NAIS_."

As has been demonstrated, the U.S. government is corrupt and only interested in furthering it's own power. This is often at the expense of its citizens. *If our livelihood is dependent upon gov.thugs, we are in a world of HURT!*

*Haypoint*, does your job have anything to do with NAIS?


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

"_We haven't had to deal with Mad Cow before. we haven't had the state to state movement of livestock we now have. We haven't had the technology to maintain a national data base that would allow trace back._"

Haypoint, help me get a handle on how serious this problem is. How many American citizens have perished from Mad Cow in the last ten years? How many cases of Mad Cow have originated from this country in the last ten years?


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

The curious thing with NAIS as I keep saying, is why the sudden scare of disease? Seems odd that all of a sudden there is a problem.

But here is the deal. Foreign countries would not buy from us, without a program. Big Ag as I keep saying, sells to these countries, the local guy sells local. Big Ag is likely hurting due to their lack of international sales. So the government comes up with a program, that caters to foreign companies.. If it wasn't foreign marketing, I doubt we would see NAIS. NAIS came about shortly after the debacle in Washington (Madcow) occured. Remember though, the animal's origin was traced back without NAIS. Shortly after, the border closed. Then what happened afterwards was interesting. Beef prices went up, because the flood of animals from canada stopped..


Now the border is open, beef has dropped, and NAIS wont save the day..

Milk prices according to the market report from the coop that picks me up forecasts an average of 16.10 or so for next year. Thats BAD. In fact, that will send a lot of farms packing, oh and NAIS wont do a darn thing to prevent it... International demand is dropping, likely due to the economic issues.

I also hope everyone doesn't get into the embryo market, and deep pedigrees. It will flood that sector of the market.

But trinity hits the nail on the head. You cant sell a product to someone, like milk, without the government wanting to know. We dealt with it, and let me tell you, they really dont want you selling outside of their knowledge. Why? It all comes down to TAXES. The milk a farmer sells under the table goes unreported. The milk the co-op picks up, does not. They collect off that.

Thats why I wonder if NAIS is going to eventually be used as a way to assess the value of your animals, and add it to your land assessment..

Jeff


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

Big ag little ag...
You may know about embryos but you don't seem to have a clue about anything else.

If big ag can't sell overseas and the market drops out how much do you think the little guy selling locally is gona get?
If I can go to the local locker plant and get half a beef cut wrapped and frozen for 1.89 a pound I'll go there before I spend 5 bucks a pound on something from a guy who tells me it's worth more cuz he grass fed it.

And what about the guy with 5 cow calf pairs who wants that pocket money. He ain't looking to sell halves, he ships the fats to market. Even I ship to market if I don't find a place to sell all my animals and I may only do 2-3 a year. Little guys sell local, down at the sales barn but the price he gets is dependant on the national market.


> Now the border is open, beef has dropped, and NAIS wont save the day..


But it can help by keeping markets open to the US keeping the prices from totally bottoming out.


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

2% of US beef is sold overseas. Big deal



sammyd said:


> Big ag little ag...
> You may know about embryos but you don't seem to have a clue about anything else.
> 
> If big ag can't sell overseas and the market drops out how much do you think the little guy selling locally is gona get?
> ...


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

It's a bit more than 2%. 
How would an extra 2 billion pounds of beef affect the markets?


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

sammyd said:


> Big ag little ag...
> You may know about embryos but you don't seem to have a clue about anything else.
> 
> If big ag can't sell overseas and the market drops out how much do you think the little guy selling locally is gona get?
> ...



You say I dont have a clue about anything else, but your last statement shows your nievetay. NAIS will not increase the value of your beef, thats complete butkis. What will increase the value of your beef, is less inflow of animals going for beef. The supply/demand equation. Its what effects milk prices, its what effects EVERYTHING..

But connecting NAIS to market value, and somehow it will increase it. Sorry, but it isn't going to work. As I said before, the price of beef wasn't all that great when we had a larger market, beef actually was HIGHER when the border closed, and we weren't selling internationally.

Will you admit it, when prices do not go up when an international market opens? Imposing a program that steals your right to move your cattle at your choosing, without reporting, simply move them. All because we want an international market? Heck, at the moment, milk demand internationally is dropping, thanks to the economy..

Jeff


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

It is nice to know that one can be gone for months and come home to find the same people discussing the same topic and just about as paranoid as ever. 

Folks, the goobermint does not give a rat's behind about you, your wife, your hidden cash or your children. No one is planning to put a chip in your ear, rear or automobile. 

Premise ID is all about tracking livestock when and if a horrendous and costly disease breaks out in the US. It identifies a tract of land and ties it to a particular operator just as does an address. It also will tie an animal to that tract of land and that operator. If an animal already at a packing house is found to be diseased, that animal can be almost immediately tracked back to its first owner. That is the purpose of NAIS. 

If you raise superior animals that give a packer an economic advantage it will be in your best interest that the packer KNOWS your NAIS ID. If you raise trash you would hope to remain anonymous. I suspect that many farmers know this and think that their cattle will be docked at sale because they cannot meet the packers' desired quality. 

Right now the promise is to keep the NAIS ID numbers out of the public record, but nothing prevents the individual from giving his number to any buyer. If my cattle can command a ten cent premium I will certainly give my ID to the packers. Time to get your herds in order folks.
Ox


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Very good post OX


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Oxankle said:


> It is nice to know that one can be gone for months and come home to find the same people discussing the same topic and just about as paranoid as ever.
> 
> Folks, the goobermint does not give a rat's behind about you, your wife, your hidden cash or your children. No one is planning to put a chip in your ear, rear or automobile.
> 
> ...


All this illustrates is two things.


1: Disease does not have a marker, where you can simply run a tag, and go "oh gee, it came from this one source". What if the disease was contracted through a sale barn? If its individual to packer ONLY. Then yes, thing is, in most cases it wont be that easy. Again disease should be combated BEFORE it leaves the farm, not after.

2: So if your animal isn't chipped, that somehow makes that animal less valuable, even though a chipped animal is no different, as neither is tested prior to leaving the farm. If I was buying, id ask for the farmer to test their animal for the most common disease. If he said "I've got an NAIS herd". Id say to him "so?, a tagged animal doesn't mean its clean, and it doesn't matter if it can be traced back to you, I lose money if I have to destroy it". So that again, would be a false sence of security.


Ya know, you pro NAIS folks make it sound SOOO easy, dealing with disease. Wait until an outbreak does occur, NAIS will be helpless.


Jeff


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

I value my liberty more than I do the market. I don't think an addition 6.7 pounds of beef per person will break the kitty.



sammyd said:


> It's a bit more than 2%.
> How would an extra 2 billion pounds of beef affect the markets?


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

> What will increase the value of your beef, is less inflow of animals going for beef. The supply/demand equation.


More demand will increase prices as well just as the worldwide demand last year drove milk to over 20/cwt.
But less demand will cause the price to drop. If a country decides that it wants traceable beef and it is not available from the US then demand for our beef will drop as will prices. 
You can twist the supply/demand tail from both ends.


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

Comments below:



Oxankle said:


> It is nice to know that one can be gone for months and come home to find the same people discussing the same topic and just about as paranoid as ever.
> 
> Folks, the goobermint does not give a rat's behind about you, your wife, your hidden cash or your children. No one is planning to put a chip in your ear, rear or automobile.
> 
> ...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

"Tracking systems for disease already exist."
I've heard this a dozen times, but I haven't gotten an answer to my question, what system do you speak of?
It is commonly known that in a disease outbreak, USDA can sit down with each producer and go over the notes in his shoebox and try to figure if he sold Bossie or Flossie to Carter Barry or was it Kyle Carter or Lyle Harter? Did he run his calves thru the March feeder calf sale or was that the time it was snowing and he took them in April?
Is the farm at Box 3116, RR#3 close to the farm at Box 3000, RR#3 or is that on the other side of the lake? 

NAIS doesn't just trace back to the calf's birthplace. It contains data of each sale/purchase and the location of the sale.

You are correct, when the US opened up to Canada's beef, prices for our beef fell. It's that supply and demand thing I've been harping on. If you can understand how an increase in supply decreases the price, why can't you see that an export market decreases our supply and helps prices to rise?
"Market Control to Agribusiness", what are you talking about and how does it relate to NAIS. Admit it, it doesn't. 

"Ya know, you pro NAIS folks make it sound SOOO easy, dealing with disease. Wait until an outbreak does occur, NAIS will be helpless."
Get with it. The old myths about it not working are vaporizing because the RFID has been used to track livestock back to the sources. It works. It works. It works. Admit it and move on. Michigan requires captive deer have the RFID ear tag just as they do with cows. This fall, a deer tested positive for Chronic Wasting Disease, another one of those pyron diseases, sort of related to Mad Cow in cattle. All the captive deer farms, over 200, were quarantined, the trace back involved two or three farms. They were tested. No traces of CWD was found and the quarantine lifted. Done and done. Crisis averted. Without the ability to accurately trace all deer involved, the USDA would have had to shut down the whole captive deer industry. This way, the public is assured that any CWD positive deer have been removed. 

You mean to tell us that your liberty hangs on something as innocuous as NAIS? Wow!

NAIS by itself doesn't raise the value of livestock. By having an effective system in place to focus on disease increases public confidence in meat. That confidence means the public is likely to buy more meat. By increasing demand, the price all farmers get for their livestock goes up. It really isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

If you have a diseased animal and the USDA catches wind of it, you don't "lose money if I have to destroy it.". You should know that's a lie. The USDA pays you for your diseased animal. There are hundreds of cases to prove it.

The fact that the body count from Mad Cow in the US is small, isn't much of a factor. England expects many more human deaths from Mad Cow due to its unususual ly long incubation period, 10 years in some cases. What makes it important is how the market reacts to this dangerous threat.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

I done enough looking on the USDA web site to satisfy myself that each separate piece of land a person is operating on would require a separate ID number since the ID is permanently attached to a specific location. I also seen several references to certain parts being a work in progress. The PDF file I was looking at was dated Dec. 2007. There is not enough benefit to the average producer to justify the hassle of dealing with it. There will be no increase in animals tested. It is not a quality assurance program. It is a number with a lot of information attached to it and no assurance of how it all will be used.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

With NAIS there would be a decrease in number of animals tested as the source of a problem would be pinpointed.
You're right, it's not a QA program. Never was.


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## harplade (Jul 14, 2005)

i'm with jeffny on this one-how will they know if your animal caught a disease at the auction barn, stockyard, in transport? Read some of the books written by and about epidemiologists for the CDC-they can barely trace back diseases with people (who can talk to them and tell them where they've been) much less follow the paths of millions of cows. Just b/c they have an id doesn't mean they will be able to figure it all out. I'm against NAIS-To quote Abraham Lincoln "America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter, and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."


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## harplade (Jul 14, 2005)

and one other thing about the people buying expensive cattle-the horse slaughter example doesn't work. Yes, regular horses have gone down in price but horses with skills and race horses have held their own in prices. People that buy expensive cattle-I would bet most of them have the money to weather tough times, they are using those animals as investments and not thinking they'll make money on the beef from them. I would guess most of them get into a trend, make their money and move on to another trend-and so what if they get tax breaks?


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Sammyd,


You think its that easy? They will simply pinpoint the problem? If TB was brought to a farm from an outside source, months later the animal is sold.. Say it was as simple as that single animal. It is traced back to the farm. The records show, no new animals were purchased, instead it came in from another location. The farmer might not recall who has been there, what has been there. That leaves a HUGE hole in the program.

If the animal was tested BEFORE leaving the farm for TB, it would be isolated by the time they read the results (lift the tail, look for reaction). Then that herd is isolated, and work begins to determine if any have been sent off farm. If not, then they proceed with depopulating the herd, or in the case of RuAnn and Maddox dairy, they made an exception (herd didn't need to be depopulated).. They took care of that issue WITHOUT NAIS.

Now with demand. Again, big ag will benefit off of an international buyer. Because that international buyer is likely looking for a large shipment of beef. The large stock yards have that quantity he seeks, the little guy wont. The little guy will be sought out, if an individual wants that beef. In that case, he will likely contact you, and it will be a different deal. So again, your asking for NAIS to create an artifical demand, and its not going to.

NAIS is not looking like a disease control program, its looking more and more like a shoddy control program, that benefits BIG ag.. What id like to know is why they need to know of every chicken, and horse on your farm. Since madcow is the reason why NAIS was drummed up. Chickens dont get Madcow, and we dont eat horse in this country. This is where it starts looking like CONTROL, more than protection..


I swear some people would support any government program no matter how lame it looks. Some simply like BIG government.


Jeff


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

JeffNY said:


> and we don't eat horse in this country. Jeff


 Has not one thing to do if we EAT Horse Meat or not. I sure love how some just parrot the same ol same ol, stuff, post after post after post. and nothing to back it up one bit. But a Paranoia that is as big as the outdoors. control chipping people,loss of freedom, ALL of these are so far fetched and out in Left field, and that is where they should STAY.

*Horses are included....because the system is "designed" to trace disease - think strangles and other equine contagious diseases. Therefore, horses must be a part of the system. *


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

So Jeff is advocating a government requirement that all cattle MUST be tested for all possible diseases before it can leave the farm. Yet he is against big government and against reporting sales and purchases. He is for using F.A.I.R. to hold the data base for all of his high class Holsteins, but if NAIS used that data base to record who buys and sells cows from my farm it suddenly becomes a loss of liberty.

Because I see the benefits of NAIS, you state that I am in favor of all government programs? Please put away your broad brush when painting me.

"You think its that easy? They will simply pinpoint the problem? If TB was brought to a farm from an outside source, months later the animal is sold.. Say it was as simple as that single animal. It is traced back to the farm. The records show, no new animals were purchased, instead it came in from another location. The farmer might not recall who has been there, what has been there. That leaves a HUGE hole in the program."

Jeff, you really haven't been listening have you? When you say outside source, I assume you mean another cow? Because if you are thinking that it might be a Government scientist with a vial of tuberculin, I'll pass on that tin hat discussion, thanks. In the case you present, there would be a record in the data base of where that cow came from when the farmer couldn't recall where it came from. The data base also shows what livestock sales that cow went thru and the date. While it is unlikely that TB would be spread to other cows at that sale, there is a record of what cows were there and where they went. There is a solid trail. You can call it trace back, clues, leads, whatever. There is no hole. Nothing on this green earth is perfect, but there is no hole.

" Then that herd is isolated, and work begins to determine if any have been sent off farm. If not, then they proceed with depopulating the herd, or in the case of RuAnn and Maddox dairy, they made an exception (herd didn't need to be depopulated).. They took care of that issue WITHOUT NAIS."

It was a closed herd, not an exception. NAIS has those situations covered. They call it a closed herd, you call it a loophole for the rich. Whatever.

"Now with demand. Again, big ag will benefit off of an international buyer. Because that international buyer is likely looking for a large shipment of beef. The large stock yards have that quantity he seeks, the little guy wont. The little guy will be sought out, if an individual wants that beef. In that case, he will likely contact you, and it will be a different deal. So again, your asking for NAIS to create an artifical demand, and its not going to."

Where do you think these buyers for international shipments get their cows? Do you really believe that there is a group of big farmers that have exclusive rights to the international market? I see, every week, buyers for a huge packing plant, buying individual cows from farmers of all sizes. While this is in Green Bay Wisconsin, some of their product does get exported. I'm fairly sure that at the slaughterhouse, they don't seperate the meat from big farms for export from the small farmer's beef. The meat is all in there together. At the feed lots, the cows raised by big farmers and small farmers are all being fattened together. At the sale barns, they are run thru either individually or in small lots. They sell without regard to the size of the operation upon which they were raised. Your big guy/ small guy just doesn't wash in the real world.

In the countries that have Avian Influenza, AKA Bird Flu, it is generally spreading along trade routes. In other words from people buying and selling and hauling birds to other areas. In this country we have disease outbreaks in race horses that because of the implanted chip they were able to trace back to the source. Just because you don't eat horse meat doesn't mean that we should do what we can to control the spread of disease. It isn't all about you.

"i'm with jeffny on this one-how will they know if your animal caught a disease at the auction barn, stockyard, in transport? Read some of the books written by and about epidemiologists for the CDC-they can barely trace back diseases with people (who can talk to them and tell them where they've been) much less follow the paths of millions of cows. Just b/c they have an id doesn't mean they will be able to figure it all out."

They can't know that the cow caught the disease at a sale barn. But they will know that the cow was at the sale barn on a specific date. Lets say the cow shows up at the slaughterhouse with signs of TB. With the data base, USDA will know every farm that cow lived at, what feed lot it stayed at and what sale barns it went thru. Now they have some solid clues, a direction to look. They will also know what cows were possibly exposed to this cow. If they find a farm that has TB, where this cow once lived, they can test every farm that bought cows from them If you have another plan, I'd like to hear it. So far anything else relies on mass testing, mass quarantines, all costly to the taxpayer. 

I wish that by keeping my cows well bedded and fed clean hay that I'd be safe from disease. I wish that everyone would do the right thing, without laws, rules or regulation. I wish the side of beef in that little butcher shop down town came from a cow born and raised in this county. I wish everyone had access to farm fresh eggs and did most of their grocery shopping at the farmers market. I wish Lassie could tell people that Timmy fell in the well. I wish my grand-daughter's apple drink didn't come from apple juice concentrate from the Republic of China. I wish McDonalds could get enough old cow lean beef here in the US so they didn't have to import New Zealand's old bulls and dairy cows.
But I have realized that I don't live in that made up fantasy world. Little house on the Prairie is a fictional account of a past era. The Andy Griffin Show isn't reality and it never was. 

It is great to know how things were done a hundred years ago. Some are still valid. But to cling to outmoded ways places you in a losing situation. For awhile, it doesn't matter if the farm loses money. We justify our methods as a break from modern big farm ways. We focus on self sufficiency. But the years grind on and the SHTF doesn't happen. The rest of the world has passed you by. You almost hope for a disaster, just to make the hard work and sacrifice worthwhile, just one hardy,"I told you so." But that isn't going to happen. 

There are ways that the Homesteader can blend our self-sufficient ways with the rest of the world. We cannot exist as if we are not connected with the world.

Instead of digging in your heals against NAIS, please read up on what diseases are causing trouble around the world. Learn how forward contracts effect what you pay for Goat Chow. Figure out ways you can use trends to your advantage. Be inventive, creative. 

Carping about a premise number attached to your child's 4H rabbit really isn't worth it.


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

Question for Haypoint: _Haypoint, help me get a handle on how serious this problem is. How many American citizens have perished from Mad Cow in the last ten years? How many cases of Mad Cow have originated from this country in the last ten years?_

Haypoints answer: "_The fact that the body count from Mad Cow in the US is small, isn't much of a factor. England expects many more human deaths from Mad Cow due to its unususual ly long incubation period, 10 years in some cases. What makes it important is how the market reacts to this dangerous threat_."

I'm glad that you admit that your, and the USDA's, fear mongering utilizing Mad Cow is just that... fear mongering. A whole 150 people ( http://www.goveg.com/ABD_madcow.asp ), world wide, have died from Mad Cow. Meanwhile, in the 20th Century, governments killed over 100 million of their own citizens. Why don't you take up a cause that is worthy instead of carrying water for a bunch of despots?


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Well since its all been figured out, we have an excellent program that will track disease, wont prevent it before it is spread, but it tracks it afterwards!! In fact its so effective, it will reduce the risk of disease, because disease wont mess with NAIS anymore, no no, it has all these benefits and perks. In fact, its so effective, they want to know about every single animal you have, and best of all. You dont even have to report it right away, no no. Wait 48 hours, perhaps the animal has gone to 2-3 different states by then, but hey, NAIS will save the day. It will miraculously trace it back to its orgin instantly, because disease has markers. In fact, a disease wears a farm name its so effective with NAIS. We wont question that some diseases can spread before they are indentified, and we wont account for some people not reporting an animal that might have just died.. Nope, NAIS will protect us there. In fact NAIS makes me feel so safe, ill even go to the auction barn now, pick up some cattle that might have BVD-PI, bring them in. But hey, if they get sick, I can trace it back (even though my entire herd has been exposed), and find the problem. Just because I can!!!

WOW, how could I have been so foolish to not trust NAIS?? Silly me.


An Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure... AKA testing before they leave..


Jeff


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

Yes arab man, just a bunch of paranoia ...

"The technotronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen and maintain up-to-date files containing even the most personal information about the citizen." 

--Zbigniew Brzezinski, National Security Advisor to Five Presidents 



arabian knight said:


> Has not one thing to do if we EAT Horse Meat or not. I sure love how some just parrot the same ol same ol, stuff, post after post after post. and nothing to back it up one bit. But a Paranoia that is as big as the outdoors. control chipping people,loss of freedom, ALL of these are so far fetched and out in Left field, and that is where they should STAY.
> 
> *Horses are included....because the system is "designed" to trace disease - think strangles and other equine contagious diseases. Therefore, horses must be a part of the system. *


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

When Walter Williams (professor at UCLA) was a student, during one of his Social Studies Classes, he spoke out on a profound observation he had:

"Professor, I trust no one. Therefore I do not get fooled. But as a result I have few friends. My wife trusts everyone and is sometimes fooled, but has more friends."

The professor thought for a moment, then asked the young student, " Mr Williams, have you considered the third point?" Clearly, Walter had seen only two sides, two ways of seeing things. He asked the professor, " What could be the third point?

The professor explained, " Don't you understand that most of the time, people just don't care about you, one way or the other?" 

And so it is with the government. Some folks may keep everything they do hidden from everyone. Others may live their lives like an open book, as transparent as a sheet of glass. But, either way, for the most part, no one gives a crap about you, your life or what you do. It may give a sense of importance to imagine that someone or something wants to know about you. We are small. We are many. If your neighbors don't care that you pee off the back porch, what makes you think they are cross checking the number of RFID tags you bought to the cost of feed in your income tax report? Saw off the barrel of a shot gun for a Federal agent or have your brother blow up a Federal Building and they'll know all about you. But you can be sure, they won't be using the NAIS data base for that investigation.

Diseases are almost always spread before they are identified. What do you suggest the USDA do once a disease has been identified? Is testing that single herd enough? If not, what do you suggest? 
Before an animal sets foot onto your farm, do you require a recent TB test? Do you require a recent Bangs Test? Are all your purchases tested for Hoof and Mouth? How about Anthrax? Didn't they have a few cases in ND last year? 

No the disease doesn't have markers, but if the diseased animal has a RFID, the USDA will know where it has lived and from there be able to check every cow that could have been exposed. Not the whole country, not a whole state, not even a whole county. Specific farms and sales facilities. 

40 years ago, Readers Digest had a story, "Vicious Chain". It was about venereal disease among teenagers. Every time that a teenager discovered they had picked up syphilis or gonorrhea, the Doctors tried to "trace back" and trace forward, in an attempt to warn these young adults that were spreading disease before they knew they had contracted a disease. People were spreading VD to others before they knew they were infected. The quicker they could get the names of sexual partners, the more effective they were in slowing its spread. Testing every student each week, for every known STD, would be effective but is impractical. The faster the warnings went out to the other exposed students, the more effective the disease control was.

Works like that for livestock. Except there is a lot less mixing in the livestock population and the cows ain't snitching on anyone. So when any disease breaks out, a system needs to be in place to pinpoint what cows have been around what cows.

Expecting farmers to report every purchase or sale on the same day might speed up trace back, but that is too strict for most. Just as expecting every cow be tested regularly for every disease known to mankind is unrealistic in the real world we live in. 

If you want to bring a BVD carrying cow into your barn, fine. But just because you are doing a stupid thing doesn't mean that your Reportable Disease is your problem alone. I want a system that attempts to trace back where that sick cow came from, then test and warn everyone that has bought from that farm or has had cows in contact with newly discovered sick cows. You may have discovered a disease, but if my cows were exposed by that cow or another sick cow at another farm, I want a system that lets me know and keeps me from spreading the disease. The NAIS data base will do at least that.

Please detail a better plan and don't give me that overly invasive requirement to test everything for every disease. That's a thousand times more government intervention than NAIS.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

No No, your right haypoint. We had it all wrong, NAIS is a great program. It traces back disease after its been sread. It doesn't do anything to stop disease, but it is still a WONDERFULL program. In fact, im going to begin promoting it as the cure all. It will be sold as "the program that traces disease after it has broken out". I will run it under the slogan "Trace it if you got it".


There is a testing program, and it would be a program that the government could give farmers the incentive to actually use, aka maybe $$$. Its called NYSCHAP. Its 100% voluntary, government doesn't need to know, unless you apply it to your herd. You test your animals for Johnes, TB, and other diseases. If your clean, you get designated as being such. This DOES help with marketing..


But hey, your right about it all. Testing your animals is MORE invasive. In fact, it might just give the buyer more comfort knowing the anmal is clean. But how could I get it wrong.. NAIS does it better, it only traces it, but you can still get disease!!! Great program. I love NAIS.


Jeff


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

Comments below



haypoint said:


> When Walter Williams (professor at UCLA) was a student, during one of his Social Studies Classes, he spoke out on a profound observation he had:
> 
> "Professor, I trust no one. Therefore I do not get fooled. But as a result I have few friends. My wife trusts everyone and is sometimes fooled, but has more friends."
> 
> ...



*The systems we have work effectively. Outbreaks of disease have been dealt with handily. You have admitted that these diseases are a non-issue with 150 fatalities world wide for Mad Cow. Stop the fear mongering.*


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Stop the Paranoia should be your calling, as that is all it is. just because something Can Be Done, does NOT mean it IS going to be done. Period end of story.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Status of current eradication programs.http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/animal_dis_spec/downloads/eradication_status.pdf 

History of animal identification.http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/animal_diseases/animal_id/

APHIS animal disease list. http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/animal_diseases/ 

Here is a list of reportable diseases.http://www.aphis.usda.gov/vs/nahss/disease_status.htm


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> Stop the Paranoia should be your calling, as that is all it is. just because something Can Be Done, does NOT mean it IS going to be done. Period end of story.


I wonder if your the same type of person that also thought there would never be a fart tax for beef and dairy operations over 26 animals. It hasn't been put in yet (proposition stage), but wait till the next admin. Then you have to obtain a permit to farm.. I find that interesting, not the fine, but a permit?


Jeff


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Thank you Allen. Those web sites should be interesting to anyone wanting to know more about what USDA is doing about diseases in livestock in this country.

This web site does a fine job in pointing out the progress in eradication of five livestock diseases. In order to make any sense of it, youâd need to know the meaning of Modified Accredited (MA), Accredited Free (Free) or Modified Accredited Advance (MAA). You would also need to understand the eradication of scrapie is ongoing and cervid TB is still a threat to livestock.
You might also note the absence of several well-known livestock diseases that are not yet common to this country at this time.

Cattle in this country have had recent cases of Anthrax, Bluetongue, Brucellosis, Johne's Disease, Rabies, West Nile, Bovine anaplasmosis, BVD, Enzootic bovine leucosis, Infectious bovine rhinotracheitis and Mad Cow.

Horses in this country have recently tested positive for six or seven different diseases.

In addition to these currently reportable diseases, we have regional disease concerns. Several states have Chronic Wasting disease in captive and wild deer and Elk. Texas has their Splenetic Fever. 

The web site on current eradication of livestock diseases is interesting, if youâd read what it says.
Clearly the past efforts have lacked the database needed for rapid trace back. Without the data base, past eradication efforts have required massive quarantines and massive testing or simply mass eradication. The wider the scope of quarantine the more farmers effected. The wider the scope of eradication, the more farmers effected and the more cost to the Taxpayers. NAIS helps narrow that focus thru the use of database.

New livestock diseases are discovered from time to time. It isnât practical to test all livestock for all possible livestock diseases. It isnât responsible to simply throw up our hands and do nothing. 

NAIS could exist without the RFID tag. The purpose of the RFID tag is to minimize human error. Reading a 15-digit number on an ear tag of a cow going thru a chute at a livestock auction or as it is being loaded or unloaded from a trailer is difficult. Doing it repeatedly without error is unlikely. Can we agree that a $2.00 ear tag that you can read the number on either side, plus can be read with a battery powered reader isnât a threat to your livelihood?

Then, correct me if Iâm wrong, your concern/anger with NAIS is the database? Thru the early portions of this nationâs history, we knew where every cow in the barn came from. If we got a sick chicken, we knew whose flock it came from. But those simple times are gone. Farmers that want to protect their livelihood develop methods to protect their animals. The term for these policies is âBio-Securityâ. The USDA in its efforts to protect this nationâs plants and animals has developed policies that limit the risk to the spread of disease. This is done by established quarantines of imported animals and required testing. 

As new diseases or outbreaks of diseases previously thought eradicated appear, plans must be in place to deal with these diseases. Diseases spread in different way, have vastly different incubation periods. Combating each unique disease requires unique methods. To be reactive is costly to the farmers and the taxpayers. The USDA must be proactive. They must have a plan in place before an outbreak. 

The EPAâs proposal of what has become known as âFart Taxâ is laughable and as such caught a lot of attention a couple months ago. But it is dead. To mention it implies that you are engaged in fear mongering or plugged into a web site engaged in fear mongering or just simply not up to date with the reality of the information.

I donât believe that Mad Cow is a ânon-issueâ. While human deaths appear to be very limited in this country, England wonât know the human toll for years to come. Clearly it is a factor to consumers here and abroad. Anything that reduces market share affects each of us. (Except those that are somehow exempt from the supply and demand rules of economics)

You think it is none of USDAâs business to know anything about the movement of livestock. But when a person is hospitalized after eating a pint of strawberries or a bowl of spinach or a green pepper or any of a number of food safety concerns, you expect the âgobmintâ to get to the source and correct everything. How can you expect the USDA to protect the American consumer, keep food safety standards and confidence high, protecting agriculture from the harmful impact of a loss of confidence without a plan, without a system, without impacting those that benefit from their efforts? 

You act like the NAIS database could be used for some evil government plot. Think about it. If the government, or anyone, wanted to know how many cows or goats or gerbils you have, they could. No one needs NAIS to count your cows. NAIS serves a fairly narrow purpose. Need I say it again? Maintain a database to allow the rapid trace back (and trace forward) of diseased livestock. To assert that it is part of a plan to require chips implanted in each one of us is fear mongering to the addle-brained and laughable to those of us that know better.

Perhaps we share the same wishful dream. That the whole country was a blend of Little House on the Prairie, the Waltonâs, Mayberry and Lassie. Ah, wouldnât that be beautiful? But I understand that isnât real and there is a much more complicated world out there. Iâm not willing to lock my gate and pretend to be separated from everything. Iâm devoted to making it in the real world, figuring out ways that the small farmer can compete in the real world. I need to know how to sharpen my scythe, but I also need to know what my input costs are for each bale of hay or dozen eggs I sell. I need to be up to date on rules, standards and regulations in every facet of agriculture, from planting to marketing. 

I wondered about that quote you keep referring to, so I googled it. All I got was a few radical web sites that warn of the âNew World Orderâ and such. If you expect me to latch onto such beliefs, youâll need to do better than http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/deepblacklies_new.htm
If you really believe this type of stuff, Iâd recommend you donât rent the movie Golden Eye. Iâm just afraid it would cause you to unplug your computer and Iâd never hear from you again. 

If 4H helps keep my children interested in farming, Iâm not going to put up a roadblock to their participation over something as trivial as a premise number.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

R-calf to the rescue.http://oklahomafarmreport.com/wire/news/00120_RCalfClaimsWinNAIS12292008_212841.php USDA has backed of its position making NAIS mandatory and established a way for producers to remove their premises ID number from the data base.


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

Comments below



haypoint said:


> Thank you Allen. Those web sites should be interesting to anyone wanting to know more about what USDA is doing about diseases in livestock in this country.
> 
> This web site does a fine job in pointing out the progress in eradication of five livestock diseases. In order to make any sense of it, youâd need to know the meaning of Modified Accredited (MA), Accredited Free (Free) or Modified Accredited Advance (MAA). You would also need to understand the eradication of scrapie is ongoing and cervid TB is still a threat to livestock.
> You might also note the absence of several well-known livestock diseases that are not yet common to this country at this time.
> ...


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Round and round we go, where we stop nobody knows. NAIS only conquers the trace back, but does not conquer disease. Funny thing, I know those in support have read the USDA site. But you see, I have yet to read an anti-NAIS site yet. I don't parrot things, like some..


Jeff


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

I have an idea for NAIS, that actually makes more sence than the way it is setup currently.


The problem I have with it, has nothing to do with chipping your animals, that in and of itself is not an issue. In fact, tracing animals I have no problem with.. What I do have a problem with is the government wanting to know each and every animal, and how many on your farm. 

The way it should be setup, and if you disagree with this, then your obviously are for government control. When an animal leaves your farm, it must have a RFID tag ONLY. That is, ONLY when it goes off the farm, whether its private or not. This way they could trace it still, but it leaves out the government knowing whether you have 5 or 100 cows.. I do strongly feel that they want to know those numbers, not for disease, since the amount of animals on your farm doesn't really have anything to do with traceability. Is for tax reasons down the road. They will either use it via the IRS, or it will be like your property appraisal, they will tack on the amount of animals x the value to your property appraisal. If you dont think thats possible, then your likely the same person who thought a fart tax wasn't possible.

As I said, RFID tag ONLY when it leaves, no reporting numbers, simply tag so they could trace it back. The way they know is your name is included with each chip.. So it is more an individual vs premsis.

You wont see that, because they want to know EVERYTHING, which happens to be all your animals..

Jeff


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

If you raise calves that are born on your place you wouldn't have to tag em till they leave.
Even the pemisis ID does not ask how many of everything you have. All it asks is do you have these kinds of animals around.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

> If big ag can't sell overseas and the market drops out how much do you think the little guy selling locally is gona get?
> If I can go to the local locker plant and get half a beef cut wrapped and frozen for 1.89 a pound I'll go there before I spend 5 bucks a pound on something from a guy who tells me it's worth more cuz he grass fed it.


I sold grass fed beef for $6 recently. The lady could have gone to the store and gotten it alot cheaper of course, yet she didn't... and she's a repeat customer. If her family gets sick there will be little time wasted in finding the source either, she knows exactly where I live.

It's the big guys who depend on "consumer confidence" among the general public. Little guys like me depend on personal relationships and consistent quality to ensure consumer confidence. I don't want the government's "help". 

First I'm told there's alot of meat coming in and we need to know where it came from. Now you say we won't be able to send meat out? Here's an idea that the market would rapidly latch on to - keep the meat we have. Supply and demand has this marvelous way of fixing things. 

Social Security began as a voluntary program. Now it's mandatory. It's also a ponzi scheme that's failing. How long 'til it's broke? I don't know exactly but I do know the government has proven themselves inefficient, incompetent and untrustworthy. Sorry, nothing said here has proven to me that the government is concerned about my welfare. History has shown time and time again that they're most interested in accruing power unto themselves.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Gabriel said:


> First I'm told there's alot of meat coming in and we need to know where it came from. Now you say we won't be able to send meat out? Here's an idea that the market would rapidly latch on to - keep the meat we have. Supply and demand has this marvelous way of fixing things.


I'm glad you brought up this subject. I've often wondered about the import/export of meat. 

Why do we send beef to foreign countries, then turn around and import beef? Why not just process home grown beef right here on our own soil instead of sending it overseas for processing, then bringing it back home with "who knows what happened to it" between? What kind of meat do we import that we can't grow right here at home? 

One thing that upset me recently was when I checked the local grocery for some frozen crawdads. There was a big package that said "Louisiana crayfish" in BIG red letters on the front, but when I checked the small print on the back of the package it said, "a product of China". I've have heard how polluted and dangerous the water is over there. Why the heck are we importing anything that might have grown in that polluted water??? AND why was it stressing the point of it being "Louisiana crayfish" if they were really from China? Is there a Louisiana, China? Was it an attempt to trick buyers into thinking it was an American product? 

I get so tired of the bait & switch crap. I wish we'd simply keep our home grown food home and stop importing the poisoned garbage from our enemies.


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

> If the animal was tested BEFORE leaving the farm for TB, it would be isolated by the time they read the results (lift the tail, look for reaction). Then that herd is isolated, *and work begins to determine if any have been sent off farm.* If not, then they proceed with depopulating the herd, or in the case of RuAnn and Maddox dairy, they made an exception (herd didn't need to be depopulated).. They took care of that issue WITHOUT NAIS.


If you will look at the part of jeff's solution that I highlighted in bold, you can see the part, the fly in the ointment, the devil in the details.... or in short where jeff's plans falls apart....

What jeff's plan is counting on is a world where the sun always shines, and it rains lolly pops....we must first assume that the farmer is able to provide information that helps isolate any animals in contact, we are must rely on his memory or his records, and secondly we must trust the farmer's word.....

Jeff's plans relies and is 100% dependent on the honesty and integrity of the user.... where as NAIS assumes that liars will be liars, cheats will cheat, and cons will con.... I sorry to bring this up, the world is full of people who will take advantage of jeff's plan. 

NAIS creates bottlenecks, yes just like annoying traffic jams..... at places where livestock comingle, the tag will be read and recorded,traceback and accountability....in short demanding responsiblity....

Is this plan going to be 100% effective????? Of course not, imperfect people, and yes jeff you must alo put yourself in this group will only manage imperfect solutions, testing on the farm is not a NAIS related topic, in and of itself, the onfarm testing would require traceback to be enforcable.

I would like the anti-NAIS group to tackle a new challenge, it you can get liars, cheats, and cons.....to follow and embrace the current livestock laws, to put forth a quality product....The NAIS proponents will be glad walk away....


Liars, cheats, and cons... 

NAIS is the best plan to combat a million different animals changing hands with millions of potential endusers....a few bad apple are spoiling the whole batch,

If you test for the bad apples, how do find out where the bad apples that slipped through the cracks came from..... 


testing and treacback are separate issues.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

RedHogs said:


> If you will look at the part of jeff's solution that I highlighted in bold, you can see the part, the fly in the ointment, the devil in the details.... or in short where jeff's plans falls apart....
> 
> What jeff's plan is counting on is a world where the sun always shines, and it rains lolly pops....we must first assume that the farmer is able to provide information that helps isolate any animals in contact, we are must rely on his memory or his records, and secondly we must trust the farmer's word.....
> 
> ...




You will find liars, cheats and cons with NAIS as well. There will be plenty of people who wont tell the government where an animal has been moved to, and I've got news for you. They dont have enough man power to enforce NAIS.

So NAIS in and of itself has tons and tons of holes in it. But one thing that is for sure, is control. Why they want to know about every single animal on your farm, and somehow that ensures safety. Yet if they required only to tag when leaving the farm (or animal doesn't sell), that is FAR from invasive. In fact, they only know when you sell it. Vs knowing about every chicken, sheep, goat, cow, horse.. It seems the goal for NAIS and only goal is to trace the origins of a diseased animal. Problem is, it doesn't stop disease. So NAIS starts looking like it has other goals in mind.

Edit: There are plenty of ways people can shuffle animals to and from farms, without the government knowing. There are plenty who sell under the table. Heck, they cant even enforce drugs..

The laughable aspect to NAIS and disease. Here they are concerned over Madcow, yet prescription drugs kill over 108,000 people each year. If they were concerned about people dying, maybe they need to be outlawed or traced back..


Jeff


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## Jay (Feb 5, 2008)

I found this searching the web: 
http://www.real-food.com/Critique%20of%20Mark%20Bittman%20NYT%20article.htm#National_Animal_Identification_System_(NAIS)

This lady is right!!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Any program can have errors or ommissions. 
Since most cows are marketed by livestock auction, scanning ear tags as they get their back tag glued on, covers most transactions. NAIS covers this huge segment quite seamlessly.
Currently there are regulations that if you sell a horse you must have a current Coggins Test fort EIA. It works well most of the time. Requiring the database to be updated when you sell a cow isn't a big deal. If I buy a cow, I want to be listed as the owner because I want to be notified if there is a disease outbreak involving animals my cow comingled with.

Spinner, if you'd like to start a diffeent thread, I'd be glad to spend some time explaining why we import some grades of beef while exporting our own. If you want we can talk about why we buy oil from Saudis while selling our Alaska oil to China. It is a very complex world out there and when you are ready to pull down the covers, I'll see if I can break it down to you.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Any program can have errors or ommissions.
> Since most cows are marketed by livestock auction, scanning ear tags as they get their back tag glued on, covers most transactions. NAIS covers this huge segment quite seamlessly.
> Currently there are regulations that if you sell a horse you must have a current Coggins Test fort EIA. It works well most of the time. Requiring the database to be updated when you sell a cow isn't a big deal. If I buy a cow, I want to be listed as the owner because I want to be notified if there is a disease outbreak involving animals my cow comingled with.
> 
> Spinner, if you'd like to start a diffeent thread, I'd be glad to spend some time explaining why we import some grades of beef while exporting our own. If you want we can talk about why we buy oil from Saudis while selling our Alaska oil to China. It is a very complex world out there and when you are ready to pull down the covers, I'll see if I can break it down to you.




My proposed idea would work quite well. Instead of testing, which people seem against, which in turn shows your not really for disease control. Having it setup where you dont have to register your premsis. Instead, when you tag an animal when it goes for sale, it includes your name, address etc. This way, it could be traced back to YOUR farm. It is the same method as NAIS proposes, but it doesn't involve the following.

1: No reporting the numbers of animals you have. You should not have to report whether you have 50 or 100 or 10. That is for different reasons.

2: You tag the animal as it leaves.. 

3: Offer incentives to do herd tests, so if you do come back clean. You get perhaps $ for being as such. 


What it seems like, is big brother wants to know your business. Disease is not their concern, since 80 million are sickened from food borne illnesses each year, 5500 die. There are 108,000 who die from prescription drugs each year, 300 per day. But these are allowed.. Why? Oh because the government does make money in some way. I think the figure was in the billions what the government gets back from prescription drugs in revenue.


Jeff


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

> 1: No reporting the numbers of animals you have. You should not have to report whether you have 50 or 100 or 10. That is for different reasons.
> 
> 2: You tag the animal as it leaves..


That in a nutshell is NAIS


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

sammyd said:


> That in a nutshell is NAIS


No it isn't. Because you have to register your premesis, you have to report the number of animals, and you have to tag them even if they dont sell.


That in a nutshell is not NAIS. Eliminate the premesis reg. Eliminate number reporting, and only tag before it leaves with an RFID tag. This actually eliminates the governments knowing of how many you have, etc etc..


Jeff


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Because you have to register your premesis,* you have to report the number of animals, and you have* to tag them even if they dont sell.
No you don't. Here is the form a person fills out no where does it ask the number. 
E. Types of livestock or livestock carcasses on premises and any secondary locations* Check ALL that apply.
Bovine â please specify:
Fish (includes all fish kept at a fish farm that requires
registration under s. ATCP 10.61)
Beef Cattle Goats
Dairy Cattle
Bison
Poultry (includes domesticated fowl like chickens, turkeys, geese, ducks,
guinea fowl, squab, ratites like rheas, ostriches, emus, cassowaries, kiwi, and
captive game birds like pheasants, quail, wild turkeys, migratory wildfowl,
pigeons, and exotic birds raised for hunting, which are raised in captivity)
Camelids (includes llamas and alpacas) Sheep
Captive cervids (includes deer, elk, moose, caribou, reindeer, and
the subfamily musk deer)
Swine
Equine (includes horses, mules and donkeys)
http://datcp.state.wi.us/premises/pdf/ApplicationForm.pdf


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

"What it seems like, is big brother wants to know your business. Disease is not their concern, since 80 million are sickened from food borne illnesses each year, 5500 die. There are 108,000 who die from prescription drugs each year, 300 per day. But these are allowed.. Why? Oh because the government does make money in some way. I think the figure was in the billions what the government gets back from prescription drugs in revenue."

I see that some folks get so caught up in class warfair, everything someone else does is against them.
You want the government out of the animal diease control business, then in the same breath you blame the government for 80,000,000 food related illnesses. Do you want a government that is in control of every egg salad sandwich that sits out on the counter too long or orange juice that has set in your 'fridge way past its fresh date? That's an interesting figure you throw around, but it doesn't relate to the USDA's job of keeping food safe unless you can tie it to contaminated food at the retail level, which you can't.

You figure the government is profitting from prescription drugs. I think medacaid and medacare costs the government a lot of money, not the other way around like you seem to believe. 

You don't have to tell USDA how many animals you have and you don't have to tag them until they leave.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> You figure the government is profitting from prescription drugs. I think medacaid and medacare costs the government a lot of money, not the other way around like you seem to believe.
> 
> You don't have to tell USDA how many animals you have and you don't have to tag them until they leave.


Several things that you seem to be misguided by.

1: Do some research, I did, and it showed how much the government makes off of prescription drugs. As I said, its in the billions.

2: You do have to report the number of animals. I double checked the form, and there is a section below the name, address, etc part of it. It asks how many sheep, goats, dairy, beef, horse, etc etc. The numbers are as follows, depending on the breed 1-5 or 1-10, 11-20, etc etc. That is reporting numbers. Also included with the form there is some literature, they mention the tags. It says nothing in that that you only have to tag before leaving the farm. They imply that you buy the tags, and thats what you use on the herd. If it really was as easy as you imply, and you didn't have to register your premesis, there wouldn't be as many people up in arms over it. 

Jeff


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

JeffNY said:


> 2: You do have to report the number of animals. I double checked the form, and there is a section below the name, address, etc part of it. It asks how many sheep, goats, dairy, beef, horse, etc etc. The numbers are as follows, depending on the breed 1-5 or 1-10, 11-20, etc etc. Jeff


 Well IF you can Find on that form I posted, and that IS the form a person fills out and sends into the State. That is the Printable online version.
ALL it says is this: 


> *Types of livestock* or livestock carcasses on premises and any secondary locations* Check ALL that apply.


 Types NOT how many of each type.
IF you find where it says diifferent. Copy it and POST IT.


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## Jay (Feb 5, 2008)

Stop nitpicking. Obviously by now we know who is for and against this issue.


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

Who's deleting Posts?????


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

RedHogs said:


> Who's deleting Posts?????




I think (atleast I hope), its a BBS glitch. There was a few other topics in the General forum, that had posts missing. One was up to 92 or so, and was 85 this morning.


AK. Here you go, it says nothing about simply species. They are asking for how many. This IMO is none of their business, and why they need to know numbers seems a bit fishy to me. I can understand species ONLY, but numbers? I thought it was a trace back system, not "numbers" system.











Jeff


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

OK so that is what The State of NY does. That is your problem take it up with The State of New York then. This is the law in NY and is not a Federal one.
This does not reflect what is happening throughout the rest the States, in regards to the Premises ID Program. I just checked out the Form for NY well like I say take it up with the State of NY as that is not the norm what is going on with the rest of the States. WI. does not require the numbers, and Wisconsin is after all the "Model State". Which others copy, but can add their own requirements, and it looks like NY did just that.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Redhogs & AK, 

Even you have to admit that it's a bit odd that NAIS wants to count every animal on our farms for the "safety" of the American public, but they don't bother to stop China from sending poisons into the country daily. 

That shows where they stand on the safety issue doesn't it??? Since we know that safety isn't a high priority of theirs, WHY are they pushing NAIS so hard? There must be some other reason why they want to know where every animal is located and who owns them. 

I think I've posted before about a local attorney that read the original draft of the NAIS registration and recommended that nobody use it for the simple reason that the legal terms used specified that the land owner was a "tenant" (on gov owned land?) not a land owner. It might be just fine for a renter to sign the form since the renter is actually a "tenant" instead of a land owner, but how many owners want to sign a legal document claiming to be a renter instead of a owner? I haven't kept up with the changes they made so I don't know if the registration form still specifies the signer is a renter or if they changed that part.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

The US buys a tremendous amount of products from many different countries, mostly China. This is what is known as "Free Trade" There are things about Free Trade that I don't like. But we aren't going to close the door to the rest of the world in our lifetime. Few people can grasp the volume that hits our shores each day. The American consumer doesn't want the price of dog food, shrimp, honey and apple juice (to name a few products we get from China) to go up. If the USDA were to increase inspections on the imported products it would drive up the price of everything.

Just maybe, before we start cracking down on imported products, we could get a program, here at home, working? 

Tainted imported products is very rare, but it grabs people's attention and we hear about it for a good long while. While there have been more recalls on China manufactured products than I like, we step away from reality with statements like, " but they don't bother to stop China from sending poisons into the country daily". 

I wish the US would have closed the border at the close of WWII, to heck with the rest of the world. We didn't and it is 60 years too late to turn back. Besides, China's apple juice in our country's baby food is a long way from NAIS. Sort of a topic swing, don't you think?

I think you are recalling the early discussion on the word, "Stakeholder". The USDA used that word as a general term for people involved in the occupation of raising animals, farmer, rancher, tenant, etc. There was a lawyer that found a dictionary that listed stakeholder as a person that held the money belonging to two people that had wagers. Sort of like a guy that holds the kitty in a card game. 

I'm starting to wonder about Wisconsin being USDA's "model state". I just read where there are exactly 443,556 cows listed by NAIS in Wisconsin. There it is, right under our eyes. Don't you see it? Don't you realize that the square root of 443,556 is 666? Another Biblical prophecy warning us that the end times are near. Jeez.


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

You're right. To quote Nancy Regean, "just say no". We need to refuse to coopertate in the least with these tyrants. We don't need to negotiate down to a lesser system with governmentophiles that put this together. They need to forget it.



JeffNY said:


> I think (atleast I hope), its a BBS glitch. There was a few other topics in the General forum, that had posts missing. One was up to 92 or so, and was 85 this morning.
> 
> 
> AK. Here you go, it says nothing about simply species. They are asking for how many. This IMO is none of their business, and why they need to know numbers seems a bit fishy to me. I can understand species ONLY, but numbers? I thought it was a trace back system, not "numbers" system.
> ...


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

No, we won't need to stop what is being shipped in. It is being done for us. The Baltic Dry Index is down 93%. I guess even in depression, there is a silver lining.



haypoint said:


> The US buys a tremendous amount of products from many different countries, mostly China. This is what is known as "Free Trade" There are things about Free Trade that I don't like. But we aren't going to close the door to the rest of the world in our lifetime. Few people can grasp the volume that hits our shores each day. The American consumer doesn't want the price of dog food, shrimp, honey and apple juice (to name a few products we get from China) to go up. If the USDA were to increase inspections on the imported products it would drive up the price of everything.
> 
> Just maybe, before we start cracking down on imported products, we could get a program, here at home, working?
> 
> ...


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

arabian knight said:


> OK so that is what The State of NY does. That is your problem take it up with The State of New York then. This is the law in NY and is not a Federal one.
> This does not reflect what is happening throughout the rest the States, in regards to the Premises ID Program. I just checked out the Form for NY well like I say take it up with the State of NY as that is not the norm what is going on with the rest of the States. WI. does not require the numbers, and Wisconsin is after all the "Model State". Which others copy, but can add their own requirements, and it looks like NY did just that.


The argument used for homosexual marriage is that "other states are doing it, we must comply". Why do you think it'll be different on NAIS? Earlier an NAIS proponent argued that "other nations are doing it, we must comply".


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Because this is a global market place on like what was happening 100 years ago. You can't go back in time as this is now the 21st century, and the world wide market place, that is demanding a uniformed trace back system, in sure the product has come from disease free animals, and that there is a competent and fast program in place in case of a disease outbreak.


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

just last week, i attended a trade seminar, which I admit, was 99% pro-ag men, these men where independent... not corporate farmers, and not rich....

This group was near 100% pro-NAIS.....

I get amused when the some say this is a big ag proposal.....

What is Big-Ag???? for the terms of this discussion, I believe it is the people with newer trucks, nicer farms, or anyone farming full time.

The room quickly was in up-roar when I mentioned the problems with COOL and NAIS, and Bio-Procedures compliance with Amish or small religous groups....

The room that was 100% for NAIS, was also 100% in agreement that somebody in the USDA should be shot and a PR firm should be hired....No body was in favor of forcing the amish or dissenters to be involved directly....

An older gentleman who had remained silent, spoke and answered.... "you got to have an uproar to have a compromise", this gentleman is involved at the state level in DOA and one of the most successful farmers in the state.

he explained that a solution for the amish and any dissenters had been availalbe for quite sometime.... He said a series of local tag farms will solve the problem and fully implement the bio-security needs with NAIS....

He explained a plan where, an amish farmer, would drop off his stock at a local "tag farm" the day before the local sale or buyers arrive... when unloaded the animal will be immediately tagged and the farmer will provide a payment stub that corresponds with the eid number.... The cows will be sold and the farmer will receive prompt payment in the form of a check.

traceback will not begin at the tag farm, the cow can be traced all the way back to the original farm, any fraud will enforcable by local authorities, not the usda, for check fraud.... the amish areas will of course receive grants, so the usda looks good in the press for helping them, any dissenters can pay a small fee and enter thier stock into commercial food chain. this plan will give the USDA cover as it allows for a smooth transition into a fully tagged chain of movement, the public will have little sympathy for a farmer who will not shell out 15 bucks to another farmer to tag his cow, he gets another man's equipment and and sorting experience for $15.... that's a bargin, if he thinks iits too much, then buy a headstall and do it yourself.

Nobody is going to buy a constituional crisis if the usda requires the farmer's provide accurate payment information, the public which quickly see that it's just go old fashion tax evasion....

Mandatory payment of all animal services and tracnsactions in check or verified payment info is roughly NAIS compliance.....

*sure*, some dissenters will go entirely underground.... if they avoid the sale barns, vets, and slaughter houses.... they have become an insgnificant threat to national herd health.... they are happy living in a cave, and herd health has taken a huge leap forward.... pouting and taking you toys home is a nais sucess, tagging is a success... the program will work either way.... no one really cares if you cooperate, nobody gives a flip.... national herd health is the concern.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Large feed lots, farms etc. Will not have to report each animal, it will be done in groups. That is catering to BIG ag..


Funny thing, we dont even have NAIS, and we ship 747 million lbs of beef to Mexico.. Again, why the concern for disease? The government is obviously not concerned over people becoming ill, afterall 106,000 die per year from drugs they approve, and less than 1% of product that comes into this country is inspected.


Jeff


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

JeffNY said:


> afterall 106,000 die per year from drugs they approve Jeff


 Apples and Oranges, are different, and trying to link drugs in with the health of our food system is different also..
A few people dying from a unexpected Drug reaction is WAY different then protecting our national herds health, which is the concern.
Side Note: I had a severe reaction from a drug approved by the USDA, and nearly died~! But do I blame the USDA Of Course Not, and neither should you. Everybody's Body is different, and drugs do not act the same way on every individual. 
But trying to say the USDA does not care is Way Out There in Left Field for sure. Approved Drugs and the Health of the Nations Food system, and trying to link the 2 together is not the thing to do either. Apples and Oranges


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

jeff, 

you seem to find some comfort in screaming about the haves and have nots, each big ag farmer has earned and fought for what they have.... as for prescription drugs, you are using a political campaign trick of emotional association, by ranting about something that is a common greivance, you hope to associate that anger with NAIS, when is the last time you saw that work.... it is obvious and paints your valid arguements with mistrust.

I think your greatest fear is that you *will not *be forced to do anything, you will just be ingored, people will not try to put you out of business, they will not even know you are in business, your enemies just don't care!!!!

NAIS is a reality, but it want affect your farm, if you don't want to be part of the world outside your farm boundaries,* fine* - just kill it and eat it yourself....

but if you want to take part of the world's most successful and organized Ag industry... yes it's an idustry, you will have to play by the rules....

The rules will require you to do XYZ, if you choose not to on your own farm then do so..... Once you leave your farm you are a citizen, not the king of your own castle.....you have the right to go to your farm and scream nasty things about the usda.... just don't move any untagged animals....

your farm = your rules, once you leave the farm the usda's has rules.....It's simple

The rules, like traffic laws are a necessary pain.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

RedHogs said:


> jeff,
> 
> you seem to find some comfort in screaming about the haves and have nots, each big ag farmer has earned and fought for what they have.... as for prescription drugs, you are using a political campaign trick of emotional association, by ranting about something that is a common greivance, you hope to associate that anger with NAIS, when is the last time you saw that work.... it is obvious and paints your valid arguements with mistrust.
> 
> ...


See this is where ignorance is bliss. The market I am in, aka the registered holstein industry. Is not going to benefit off of NAIS, as those animals I buy and sell are tested PRIOR to the sale. So you saying "if you want to be part of the most successfull industry" is BS. Heres the deal, its not mandatory yet. When it does, I will sign up for it.. Untill then I will object to it..

Funny, how people are for a program that wont stop disease, and like I said. The issue is "disease", yet they dont care about products sold inside the country from other countries. Look at China, they allowed products to be sold in this country, and only pulled it when there was objection. They should have been tested, etc etc.


So NAIS is more of a control program, than safety..


Jeff


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Somebody tell me what diseases NAIS will save us from and what markets it will open?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

"Large feed lots, farms etc. Will not have to report each animal, it will be done in groups. That is catering to BIG ag.."

No, no, a thousand times no. What you equate as a loophole for the Big Ag, is available to the small farms, too. In reality, very few farms, large or small, keep their livestock in a single group from birth to slaughter. It just isn't practical in most farming operations. Besides, what is the sense in entering into a trace back program for animals that never leave the farm until slaughter? 

"I buy and sell are tested PRIOR to the sale." 

Well, good for you Jeff. Mind if I ask exactly what they are tested for? Brucellosis and TB are common tests. Are you testing for those? How about Hoof and Mouth? How are you sure that you purchases are free of Mad Cow? Testing every purchase and sale for that? Are you getting stool samples for parasites? Rinderpest is a serious disease that would require rapid quarantining and trace back. Are you testing for that, too?

Check out this list of reportable diseases and let us know that your testing program covers them. 
http://www.padls.org/ug/repdis.html
Just because they aren't common, is no excuse not to test. England wasn't testing for Mad Cow, but look what happened.

To brag that you don't need a trace back program because you test is, as you said "ignorance is bliss". We weren't testing for TB in Michigan, because that disease didn't exist here. But we got it and depend on trace back/ trace forward to stem its spread. 

NAIS is a livestock program. It is not a imported fruit program. It is not a pet food program. It is not a prescription drug program. 

"Look at China, they allowed products to be sold in this country, and only pulled it when there was objection. They should have been tested, etc etc."

The topic here is how local fairs require premise ID. Seems we are way off track talking just about NAIS. To jump over to the inspection of of China's products is a bit of a stretch. To state that USDA allows all products into this country untested, until there is a complaint is a lie. 

I hate that we trade with China, but that isn't the topic at hand.

Allen asked, "Somebody tell me what diseases NAIS will save us from and what markets it will open?"

Michigan lost it's TB free status and we lost our out of state market. That hurt dairy and cattle farmers, big and small. As part of a scientific program to eliminate TB from Michigan's cows ( I'm referring to the cows owned by farmers that live in this state, not inferring that these cows are the property of the state). Testing for TB is ongoing in the counties where TB positive cows and deer were found. Cows from these counties must have a recent TB test to be marketed out of these counties. The electronic ear tag is the market's assurance that each cow matches that TB test. The electronic ear tag applied in the ear of cows from areas where no TB has been found is important to assure the market that the cow was raised in an area known to be TB free (the whole state, every cow was tested a few years ago and most of the state was found to be TB-free). 
Should TB show up at a slaughterhouse or thru random testing, it is important to the market to know what farms might have TB infected cows. They would be quarantined and tested right away. This allows the farmer to continue marketing his TB free cows without needless extended quarantines. At the same time, the trace back system can be used for trace forward. The farms with cows that crossed paths with an infected cow can also be quarantined and tested. This provides market assurances and reduces the time in quarantine to just a few days.

Some of the larger beef buyers and packing plants are requiring place of origin documentation. Electronic ear tags permit this to be accomplished quickly and with very little error.

Japan and Korea buy many tons of US beef. They can pick anywhere in the world to buy. The loss of these and other export markets produces extra beef in this country, driving down the value of cows. The value of cattle goes down without regard to how big or small your herd.

The RFID was recently used to trace back a Chronic Wasting Disease in a deer in Michigan. The 200 plus captive deer farms were placed on quarantine, the deer at the farm where the CWD positive deer was housed were tested. The farms where this deer originated were tested. This was done in just a few days. It kept the Hunt Clubs operating and no farmers were put out of business.

When the public saw a TV article about dangerous chemicals on apples, the market slumped and the price dropped. It doesn't take much surplus in the market to create a deep dive in prices. Alar was banned even though there wasn't scientific evidence of any danger and the apples did not contain any chemical residue. 

It is critical that the US look for places to export our products, diminishing our off kilter balance of trade. It is also critical to insure public confidence thru rapid action in the event of a disease out break, keeping a demand for all agriculture products growing.

If NAIS can limit the spread of disease by quickly isolating farms that were the source of the disease and isolating and testing the animals that were exposed, it controls the spread of a disease. Therefor, controlling disease produces safety.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

You guys just dont get it do you? Its not surprising but rather amazing how thick some of you are. NAIS is designed for disease, for consumer confidence.. Chinese products were allowed in this country, even after it was known othe products were dangerous. A kid DIED from the products, this is due to the lack of inspection.. This does not help consumer confidence.. The government wants to protect people, yet they allow products in (99%+) that are not inspected. How do you protect people when your not even inspecting the vast majority of products coming in? How do you protect people, when over 106,000 die per year from the very same drugs THE GOVERNMENT approves.. Thats my issue. NAIS is not designed to protect anyone, the government really does not care about your health. If they did, they would act like it. Food borne illnesses are a result of them being inept. They inspect, yet it seems people are still dying..

If your really cant GET IT, that the issue here is consumer confidence, yet haypoint himself has said "its consumer confidence". Yet somehow cant grasp "what does china have to do with it". WAKE UP! Because it is the ENTIRE picture. I will make it easier to understand.


The government allows products on the market that kill people, yet they are touting NAIS is to SAVE people. This is a MAJOR contradiction and is why I do think NAIS has another purprose CONTROL. If you cant sell your cattle because your not enrolled in NAIS, that is called CONTROL.. GET IT?


Jeff


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Talk about not getting it. China, FDA drug Programs etc. etc. etc. Is not and should not be lumped into the NAIS program by the USDA. Nice side track though in not answering haypoint on the disease testing questions. Hmmmm.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

AK, would you mind answering my point? Do we or do we not have to comply with other states and nations regulations because they do "xyz" or not? 



> OK so that is what The State of NY does. That is your problem take it up with The State of New York then. This is the law in NY and is not a Federal one.
> This does not reflect what is happening throughout the rest the States, in regards to the Premises ID Program. I just checked out the Form for NY well like I say take it up with the State of NY as that is not the norm what is going on with the rest of the States. WI. does not require the numbers, and Wisconsin is after all the "Model State". Which others copy, but can add their own requirements, and it looks like NY did just that.


That seems to say no. Let the other states do what they want and you won't be bound by it. Yet you go on to say - 



> Because this is a global market place on like what was happening 100 years ago. You can't go back in time as this is now the 21st century, and the world wide market place, that is demanding a uniformed trace back system, in sure the product has come from disease free animals, and that there is a competent and fast program in place in case of a disease outbreak.


So, which is it?


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## Jay (Feb 5, 2008)

Redhogs--I used to work for a man just like you in your profession. I was a manager at a confinement for years. I know how a "switcheroo" can and would happen in the hog barns. If the pigs aren't individually tagged, when they get out and get all together how do you know who goes literally into which group?? Besides counting and saying: 32 in this pen, 30 in this one, etc, etc. Workers just make things look good on paper. I've seen it happen more than once to "save face".

I have often sat and thought HOW does one make all this happen--in the real world?? What a nightmare THAT can turn into! Gilts or sows that can't stay with their original group because they were later breeders. So those gilts or sows that didn't breed (or rebreed)--how can you ship them along with the finishers--that isn't "their number specific" group? I already see a solution--the dead pit. Oh yeah, I see that one coming, hard and fast.

Sows that are re-bred, how are you going to keep these in specific "groups" when they are in gestation crates with hundreds or thousands in one barn? (Versus keeping them "in line" per their due dates.) What about fostering? You have sows (hypothetical) from the same group--so I guess fostering piglets and swapping is OK. 
What if you have sows from different "specific number groups" farrowing?? Are the piglets when weaned just their own new little group? How do I know what group(s) they originated from.....on paper it will say this, but how does one *REALLY* know??

I have seen workers do some pretty stupid/oddball things, just to keep paperwork straight and lookin' good for the office/owner(s). (What they don't know don't hurt them type of attitude.) Like babies (gasp!) born in breeding, to sow from "hypothetical group A" that the paperwork says she wasn't due until next week--and those babies get fostered onto other sows from "hypthetical group B" that have just farrowed, or are farrowing. Hmmmmmm.....yep, I know ALL about that kind of stuff. Glad I don't have to deal with it, either!!

Its the workers on the farms that will have to deal with the chaos. And the people in the office keeping paperwork "in order". I KNOW what goes on behind "closed doors". (Those "don't ask don't tell" kind of meetings--I've been to THOSE before, too!)
Things can look wonderful on paper, but in reality it can be nothing but trouble.

Yes, big Ag loves all this NAIS/premisis registration/Locate in 48 stuff. Us little guys who don't ask for gov't subsidies (money) in the first place don't want anything to do with how YOU guys do things. That is why we do what we do.
I've been on both sides of the "Ag fence" when it comes to raising livestock--Big Ag and Small Potatoes Folks. I'll stay on this side now. It's much quieter and less stressful. No "bottom $$ line" drives me anymore. I consume what I grow, or sell it privately. 
I may not be rich, but I sure eat good!!


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

> Redhogs--I used to work for a man just like you in your profession. I was a manager at a confinement for years. I know how a "switcheroo" can and would happen in the hog barns. If the pigs aren't individually tagged, when they get out and get all together how do you know who goes literally into which group?? Besides counting and saying: 32 in this pen, 30 in this one, etc, etc. Workers just make things look good on paper. I've seen it happen more than once to "save face".


jay, first.... I think you have jumped on the wrong guy.... and I think you are digging a little too deep...

From your post , I think you have a problem with lot numbers...... first, lot number or penning is not at issue on farm.... Nais is an off farm tracking idea....

yes, regrouping happens as a matter of day to day business, and yes lot numbers will be used....

If you have the experience you speak of, you know the NAIS plan is using lot numbers to coincide with *the current system *of insterstate travel and health papers, the lot number is assigned and loaded into a hauler and the door should be zip tied with a special coded seal.... 

and yes this system has been tampered with, but by limiting it to terminal slaughter destinations, no feedlot - salebarn - or any mixed ownership stock animals would apply to this exemption....

keep in mind that lot numbers on day old chicks makes sense, lot numbers on 19 day old piglets makes sense, a farm may buy 10,000 that are all shiped at once.... reality is that the lot number arguement is people just being contrary...A semi going from a to b crossing a state line would have this number 09809809809....... A problem at the first farm would trigger testing at all farms receiving shipments.....chickens and pigs don't stay around long.... fastest to slowest grower is separated only by days.....you also know that with hogs, and chickens its not one sick, it's all sick.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> Talk about not getting it. China, FDA drug Programs etc. etc. etc. Is not and should not be lumped into the NAIS program by the USDA. Nice side track though in not answering haypoint on the disease testing questions. Hmmmm.


Im not sidetracking anything. I already said, the cattle I buy and sell are tested when they go to those registered only markets. I feel FAR safer buying an animal from those sales, than I would with a RFID tagged animal. An RFID tag does not mean the animal is free from disease.


China, FDA, etc DOES have relevance to the bigger picture. NAIS is for disease control, consumer confidence. When you have the very same government allowing drugs that kill 106,000 a year and allowing products in (99%+) uninspected. How does that boost consumer confidence?

It is all BS, a big load of it.


Jeff


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## sungirl (Jan 23, 2008)

I haven't read these thread but here is some infomation that was emailed to me from a breeder. 



> Received: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 9:04 AM
> 
> FW: Australia Animal ID Cost $350,000,000 to producers, so far.I was asked to
> forward this to the breed lists -- if others would like to on the ones I am not
> ...


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## Jay (Feb 5, 2008)

Since most are thinking of cattle, I guess I wanted to point out/show how things are in the hog world. Cattle would be much easier to deal with since they don't have litters, and have a longer gestation peroid than sows.

As for the paperwork, ok, say something is tracedback to your place. I guess instead of figuring out what barns/pens/specific animals the problem came from, it's just easier (safer???) to just destroy everything like they did in Europe.

I have to giggle at all the bio-security we go through...just to have the milo we used infested by birds and we still got TGE one year--that was nasty. The milo sat in a big pile (from our farm, no less--common practise in these parts) and birds had a feast--just like they always do. The vets/authorities never did traceback all the way to where the birds got it from.

So....if you can keep the wild critters tracked, and vaccinated.....who is going to do that?? Look at all the disease/carrier problems created by deer, bison, birds, rats/mice even flies.....none of the premisis ID or critter IDs can help with that. People forget about what lives in the wild....


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Jay said:


> Since most are thinking of cattle, I guess I wanted to point out/show how things are in the hog world. Cattle would be much easier to deal with since they don't have litters, and have a longer gestation peroid than sows.
> 
> As for the paperwork, ok, say something is tracedback to your place. I guess instead of figuring out what barns/pens/specific animals the problem came from, it's just easier (safer???) to just destroy everything like they did in Europe.
> 
> ...


CWD traveled to the this state because of domestic deer, it is now in the wild deer population. WITHOUT NAIS they traced to where they bought the deer.

There is TB in a domestic deer herd a couple hours south of here, again, traveled unknown and now could pose a risk to the wild deer herd (if it already hasn't.


Jeff


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

JeffNY:"CWD traveled to the this state because of domestic deer, it is now in the wild deer population. WITHOUT NAIS they traced to where they bought the deer.

There is TB in a domestic deer herd a couple hours south of here, again, traveled unknown and now could pose a risk to the wild deer herd (if it already hasn't."

Oh, do tell. Where was this domestic CWD deer traced back to? Most scientists agree that getting CWD in your state is more of a matter of when, not if. Because the USDA understands that CWD is a problem, there is a higher degree of paperwork in domestic deer raising. Several stated require the RFID tag in captive/domestic deer. Was the NAIS data base used to trace that deer? Be careful what you use as examples, you might just prove my argument.

The risk of spreading TB from a captive/domestic deer is small. If you buy deer, you'll want to keep them from running away, right. Eight or ten feet tall fences keep your purchases in and at the same time limit wild deer from entering.
So there is a TB domestic/captive deer and no one knows where it came from? Some one, somewhere is breeding and raising and selling TB infected deer and we can't figure out where it is. So the disease just goes on, being passed around from farm to farm for who knows how long. But you can't see how rapid trace back helps to reduce disease? Whatever.

Jay:"Since most are thinking of cattle, I guess I wanted to point out/show how things are in the hog world. Cattle would be much easier to deal with since they don't have litters, and have a longer gestation peroid than sows.

As for the paperwork, ok, say something is tracedback to your place. I guess instead of figuring out what barns/pens/specific animals the problem came from, it's just easier (safer???) to just destroy everything like they did in Europe."

Oh, stop it, Jay. You should know that isn't truthful. Rapid traceback to the farm allows testing, not killing of livestock. If you end up with diseased livestock, that's when the killing begins. 

He continues, "So....if you can keep the wild critters tracked, and vaccinated.....who is going to do that?? Look at all the disease/carrier problems created by deer, bison, birds, rats/mice even flies.....none of the premisis ID or critter IDs can help with that. People forget about what lives in the wild...."

I'll grant you that some birds do travel great distances, but generally wildlife stick to a specific geographical area. If you have a problem in the center of one county, it is douptful that it'll show up a couple states over. not so with domestic livestock. Once a disease problem is discovered in a wild animal, the domestic animals in that area need to be tested and steps taken to drasticly reduce the population of that wild species in that area. This is another place where getting your premise number is important. If your herd is within the range of a contaminated wild animal, you'd want to be warned or get your animals tested, wouldn't you? Perhaps you prefer the "throw your hands up" approach?
"


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## spectrumranch (Jan 2, 2007)

> The risk of spreading TB from a captive/domestic deer is small. If you buy deer, you'll want to keep them from running away, right. Eight or ten feet tall fences keep your purchases in and at the same time limit wild deer from entering


So a 8 to 10 foot fence keeps the wild deer from spreading TB to captive deer????




> Rapid traceback to the farm allows testing, not killing of livestock


So Deer can be tested for CWD without killing them???


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> JeffNY:"CWD traveled to the this state because of domestic deer, it is now in the wild deer population. WITHOUT NAIS they traced to where they bought the deer.
> 
> There is TB in a domestic deer herd a couple hours south of here, again, traveled unknown and now could pose a risk to the wild deer herd (if it already hasn't."
> 
> ...


Pretty easy to track it back to its place of origin. Ever heard of a paper trail?


Jeff


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

spectrumranch said:


> So a 8 to 10 foot fence keeps the wild deer from spreading TB to captive deer????
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To those who know about CWD, you have to kill the deer, as you have to test the brain.. With TB, it only requires through the fence transmission.. TB is spread by a cough with people, and just as easy with critters.

No amount of NAIS will prevent the spread of CWD, or TB..

Jeff


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## Jay (Feb 5, 2008)

haypoint said:


> Jay:"Since most are thinking of cattle, I guess I wanted to point out/show how things are in the hog world. Cattle would be much easier to deal with since they don't have litters, and have a longer gestation peroid than sows.
> 
> As for the paperwork, ok, say something is tracedback to your place. I guess instead of figuring out what barns/pens/specific animals the problem came from, it's just easier (safer???) to just destroy everything like they did in Europe."
> 
> ...


I'm done....you aren't going to convince me I need to have a premisis number, so stop trying. Just like I can't get you to see I don't want one. IF there is a big disease outreak, don't you think it's going to be in the news, or at least the coffee shop guys talking about it? 
If disease bothers you that much, you'd better not go anywhere there is other livestock or those who have livestock that are out and about (sale barn, mill, feed store, truck stop, coffee shop, grocery store, etc) or get rid of your critters.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

CWD and Mad Cow are two specific diseases that require killing in order to test for it. With an accurate and rapid trace back system, the number that would be suspect to CWD is fractional to what would need to be done if no one knew where each specific captive deer came from. If a deer was found positive for CWD at ranch "C", the deer at ranch "B" where those deer came from would be killed. This could be done thru paid hunts, the normal income for these ranches or they could simply be killed and tested. If no animals tested possitive for CWD, then there would be no reason to kill and test deer at ranch"A", where ranch "B" got it's deer. Without any verifiable method of trace back, all the deer would have to be killed. An ear tag and a data base can provide that verification when a paper trail cannot. 
It is possible for captive deer to spread TB to wild deer thru nose to nose contact thru the fence. Possible, but not common. When captive deer are discovered to have TB, then the herd is killed, eliminating any risk to the wild deer population or being transported to other captive herds. In the opposite situation where TB has infected the wild population, there are several ways to limit to spread when used in combination minimizes risk. Banning the baiting of deer that provides unnatural grouping of wild deer. Increased hunting permits reduces the number of deer. This helps in two ways, increasing the probability of killing infected deer and lowering the population reduces the contact between deer. Wild deer are natural brousers. In low deer populations without baiting stations, wild deer have very little nasal mucus exchange. But it is possible.


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

> If disease bothers you that much, you'd better not go anywhere there is other livestock or those who have livestock that are out and about (sale barn, mill, feed store, truck stop, coffee shop, grocery store, etc) or get rid of your critters.


jay, you are missing the more obvious solution, if a small fraction of dissenters are not willing to be part of the ag industry, and it's attempts to move move ahead both stronger and safer, then maybe it's the the small fraction of animals from dissenter that should stay away and be excluded.....

I have never been for mandatory tagging, I just do not want the mainstream market contaminated by a very few farmers who will not tag their animals, I am just a little skeptical of any man's product that he will not stand behind, why don't these farmers want them traced back to them? if it's religous, I'm all for off-farm tagging for the amish, paid for by a government grant, if it's tax evasion, i'm less inclined to help.

If you don't want to be part....... i'm fine with that, the vast number of animals..... 95+ % of all animals sold are from pro-NAIS owners.... Please respect that... either join them or use alternate methods of selling and slaughtering your animals......your cause is very vocal, but insignificant in size.... the threats and benefits to mainstream producers are real are represent a huge financial liability to many owners..... 

It's like screaming you shouldn't have to carry more than 1500 dollars worth of liability insurance of your car becasue thats all it's worth, and people don't need to spend more on that on a car..... a 90,000 dollar benz may not be your cup of tea, but destroying it and then not paying is not the solution.

people have nicer and bigger farms, bigger and nicer cars..... If you want to drive on the road, which is a priveledge and not a right.... you must follow the rules.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Redhogs where did you get your 95% figure?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

In Michigan, all the captive deer farms and all the dairy operations and all the beef farms have to get a premise number and any deer or cows that leave the farm must have a RFID ear tag. Been a requirement for about a year now. Seems to be going smoothly. Nothing is liked 100% by everyone, but just guessing I'd say Redhog's 95% is a bit low for Michigan. In the counties that TB was found, they have been tagging for a number of years now. 

I think once people were able to see how it works and understand how it helps, most of the urban myths melted away. Perhaps that is why the antiNAIS group are so vocal. They have been scaring people about the boogeyman for a few years now, but people have stopped jumping.

While Michigan's economy, tied to the auto industry, is real bad, I don't see anyone getting out of the livestock business. Being a part of the NAIS program isn't costing anyone a fortune, it isn't a lot of burdensome paperwork, there are no black helicopters over the sale barns.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

"Just like with most things, it takes the right conditions to get active. Healthy critters on a good mineral program will be better off than paperwork I've filled out. Paperwork isn't going to save them--health will."

Oh, I wish that were true. Think about what you've said. If I catch syphilis, is the doctor going to ask me if I was taking my vitamins or is going to want to know where I got it, so it won't go unchecked and get spread to others? You might want to check the effectiveness of minerals before you swap out that condom in your billfold.

If you are in a classroom with one person with chicken pox, who is going to catch it? The ones that forgot their "one-a-day" and skipped breakfast or the ones that were closest to the disease? Minerals can help keep your body functioning, but exposure to disease is still an exposure.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

So exposure to germs is a guarantee that you'll contract that disease? Last time I checked a healthy immune system will fight off a lot of things. You're painting with a broad brush haypoint.

No need to resort to character assassination if the facts aren't enough. 

Red, I like your attitude of live and let live. The problem is, these things start out as voluntary and later are changed to mandatory. There's two camps here - the NAIS which thinks the government should control everything and the group which doesn't. No point in arguing further really.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

The issue here is disease.. NAIS does not control disease. It traces it back after it is reported, or after an outbreak is already occuring. No Form of NAIS will prevent disease. Only MORE strict control would do so, which would be test test test. I do not advocate strict control..


But when we talk about the government trying to protect you. Three thing.


FDA inspected less than 1% of products coming in.
Over 106,000 die per year from FDA approved drugs
Over 80 million are sickened from food borne illnesses, FROM FDA approved foods.


We can rehash this all day.. Problem is, it still doesn't show how NAIS will stop disease. tracing and stopping are TWO different things.


Jeff


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

JeffNY said:


> it still doesn't show how NAIS will stop disease. tracing and stopping are TWO different things.
> 
> 
> Jeff


 No they are not . It *Traces it Back *to the Orginal place so it does not *Spread*. That is* Stopping it* to the original place before it gets to the farm down the road etc.


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

> Only MORE strict control would do so, which would be test test test. I do not advocate strict control..


jeff. enough with the prescription drugs, it's silly..... What's your grand plan? some on here have presented ideas, backed some form or all of NAIS..... What's your deal, what's your plan..... If you are in front of people who lived through regional or area outbreak, only to have their animals locked down, unable to sell or move, while the problem is solved, unable to meet legally binding contracts, or keeping simple deal made to others.... we need speed, and we need it now.

These people will tell you, the current system is a total failure, no controls, no help at all in serious times......

They needed help, many will need help in the future???

We need better *now*!!!!!!! We needed it yesterday.

Whats your grand plan???

Its time to quit standing on the sideline throwing rocks....If your not helping, your harming these people.

You don't have to support NAIS, but you better have a better plan.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> No they are not . It *Traces it Back *to the Orginal place so it does not *Spread*. That is* Stopping it* to the original place before it gets to the farm down the road etc.


See thats your misunderstanding of disease. There are diseases that they are concerned about that could spread, BEFORE being detected. Then when the disease is reported, they begin testing, then tracing. The disease could still spread, even while they are tracing it back. The only way to stop disease is setup a LARGE quarentine zone, like they did in Europe and begin slaughtering in a circle. Any pathologist could tell you, disease knows no bounds. NAIS traces AFTER reporting.. It is not designed to stop disease PRIOR to spreading.. You will still have quarentines, you will still have mass slaughter.. And the joke of it all, its only the little guy who has to tag all of their animals. The CAFO's, dont have to.. How will they trace back disease, when not all of the animals are tagged? This leaves a BIG hole..


Hoof and Mouth could spread, and do MASSIVE damage prior to being quarentines, and NAIS wont curb the damage. TB same thing, just like humans, it can spread before being tested or detected. THEN NAIS kicks in, but it will be AFTER the damage has occured.


Jeff


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

jeff, what's you plan???????????

In absense of a better plan, NAIS is a 100% reality!!!!!


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

RedHogs said:


> jeff, what's you plan???????????
> 
> In absense of a better plan, NAIS is a 100% reality!!!!!


I have already stated my plan, you must have either missed it or not read through..


Its quite simple. Testing. The only effective way to deal with disease is to actually test prior to selling, it would be more strict, more control. But disease requires one to be more strict and to control it more. There is a program in NY called NYSCHAP. If this was a national program, and if they offered an incentive to test. I do think people would jump on board.


With NAIS, some say "its not control". Then explain in detail how its not control when you cant sell an animal if your not enrolled in NAIS. That IS control.. Instead of it being a free market, it turns into an entirely different type of market.


Jeff


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

jeff, i knew exactly what your position was going to be.... until now you had been wise enough to not make a bold and solid stance on strict testing.... 

Let's not kid ourselves, you are smart enough to blow smoke and pretend you have a plan, when you know you don't....

With my formal education in accounting, I start with numbers, numbers will alway override emotion in any debate... I will try to deflate you plan without being rude....

Your plan hinges on the testing of individual animals, a single test, a single test result and corresponding report.

lets look at the numbers for 2008.... let's just do one month, November's numbers have just come out .....

www.nass.usda.gov/Publications/Todays_Reports/reports/lstk1208.pdf

2.52 million cattle
81,400 veal calves
9.32 million hogs
193,000 lambs

and I believe about 14 million poultry 

These number are for just one month, ther are 12 months in a year.... slaughter numbers are down in this sample month....

I'm not going to ask you where we are going to build all the labs, train all the technicians, who is going to process the results.... 10x larger than the IRS annual mail, this would be the test returns, I'm not even going to ask you how we are going to pay for all this....

I just want to know how are we going to test all these animal when there are not that many needles in exsistence worldwide...

Jeff, you know better.... our census data is a 10 year process to simply count 250 million people.... we can't even count that many people...and get names and addresses.... we are having trouble getting the names and addresses or just the farmers.

NAIS is a monumental undertaking, that will take years to get going... the tag plants are being built, have been built..... 

but your needle plants, the size of detroit's auto mills have not been built.

NAIS is counting on sampling data, _aka_ hit or miss testing, that is because individual testing is.... well i want say laughable, because it is concerning that someone at the forefront of a debat as you are, has not thought is out.

explain away the needle problem, which is impossible...

then start on the labs,

then the technician,

and by the year 2090, you can start figuring out how to process this info....

NAIS will be a major 10 year project, and it's not near as complicated as your plan.....

when you try to explain away the needle issue, *remember* you are against the use of lot numbers.... which would put the tag manufacturers in the same impossible position your needle plants are goin to be in.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Very true, no way is it cost effective to test every critter, or even feasible.
Say there are 2,000 critters, you test 2 out of that 2,000, if nothing is found, you ship. If you find one, test one more, if nothing is found you ship.
There has been study after study after study done on "Sample Testing" and it WORKS. You do not have to test 100% of ANY given product or animal.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

As I said. You guys want to control disease, but you dont want to test for disease. You want a program that traces back only when a disease outbreak occurs. A fool would only think that NAIS will actually stop disease. SOMEONE HAS TO REPORT IT FIRST... Some people could pass off a cough as nothing, could be TB, could be anything.


NAIS as it stands is complicated. Because it involves enforcing it. Who is going to enforce NAIS? Who is going to tell bob, mike or joe that he has to report his group, when he moves them? I can tell you, there are a TON who wont.. This country is BIG, enforcing the program is going to be a nightmere. People will still sell, and not tell a soul. Funny you have to report a sale. Makes you wonder, why do they want to know that?


Its very clear where we stand on it. I have asked and asked how NAIS will control disease. Then I am told "it doesn't control disease". So then it turns out it is only TRACING disease, after it breaks out.


Well I await the first outbreak, but I want to see this program tested, id like to see if it really is as GOOD as those who are for it say it is. Because ive got news for you. If a disease breaks out, the government will impose a BIG quarantine zone. They did it in Europe.. Oh and if you think NAIS will prevent that? Then being nieve bust be your virtue.


Jeff


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> Very true, no way is it cost effective to test every critter, or even feasible.
> Say there are 2,000 critters, you test 2 out of that 2,000, if nothing is found, you ship. If you find one, test one more, if nothing is found you ship.
> There has been study after study after study done on "Sample Testing" and it WORKS. You do not have to test 100% of ANY given product or animal.


So if there was an animal that had BVD-PI in your herd. You sample tested, vs testing the entire group. You could have a typhoid mary spreading BVD to your group, and not even know it.

What you do, if your overly concerned, is test them ALL. Any that are BVD-PI, you ship (if you dont, your a fool). This is why I would not buy any animal that was simply tagged with an RFID tag, and was enrolled in NAIS. I would require testing on the individual, because an RFID tag doesn't mean the animal is free from a dangerous disease.


Jeff


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

NAIS does not prevent disease. Nothing prevents disease. NAIS limits the SPREAD of disease. If they can locate exposed livestock and test them, that is where you are likely to find disease. Finding exposed livestock is called trace back. You see where the diseased cow has been and check to see if those cows have the disease. If they do, then they check the places those cows have been, plus they check the farms where those farm's cows were sold. They can rule out the rest of the country's cows, because they weren't in contact with the diseased animals. That is a quick focused total inspection. As such, the spread of disease from that outbreak is stemed. Did it eliminate disease? No. Did it limit the spread of disease? Yes. I don't think you can ask for much more. 

On one hand you expect people to test and be honest about which cow went with which test results, yet you think it foolish not to dump a BVD-PI cow on the unknowing. Which way is it? If you are going to test everything on the farm for every known disease, how do I know those tests go with that animal? Just because your paperwork lists a Holstein with a purple ear tag numbered 666, is no assurance that you didn't place that tag after the test or that you have 20 cows with a purple ear tag numbered 666.
I started a thread about the 106,000 deaths in this country and the FDA. If you want to discuss it, go there. The thread here is about premise ID and County 4H fairs. Those premise IDs are a part of NAIS. 
I also started one about the number of people that get sick each year with food related illnesses. There's where you can discuss that issue and still be on the same topic.

You keep up with this testing, testing, testing, but for what. You have yet to tell us what you'd need to test for to negate the need for any traceability. 

What do you test for and/or what needs to be tested to insure no diseases in (let's keep it simple) cattle?

JeffNY:"Well I await the first outbreak, but I want to see this program tested, id like to see if it really is as GOOD as those who are for it say it is. Because ive got news for you. If a disease breaks out, the government will impose a BIG quarantine zone. They did it in Europe.. Oh and if you think NAIS will prevent that? Then being nieve bust be your virtue."

Been there, done that. Wait no more. Several herds of cattle in Michigan were found to have TB. That farm was placed on quarantine. The database was checked and the associated farms were checked. When those farms checked out negative, the cattle at the infected farm were destroyed and the barns cleaned with the free help from USDA and MDA. Then the farmer was paid for his cows and started over. 

Recently, a captive deer was found to have chronic wasting disease. Movement of deer at any of the 200 or so captive deer ranches was stopped. All the deer at the place where there was a positive, were tested. All were negative. A test was done on a number of the deer at the deer ranch where this positive deer came from. The results were negative. The quarantines were then lifted and life goes on. 

So, it is as good as they said it would be. 

When I buy a horse, the owner is required to provide a recent Coggins Test, testing for EIA. If the seller doesn't follow the law, we don't need any government oversight. I'm going to demand that I get the test results showing this horse is negative. 

It is the same thing if I buy a cow. If the seller doesn't want me to know his name and hasn't tagged that cow, I don't want it. I want my cows in the data base. In the event there is a trace back event that involves any one of my cows, I want to know. Being a part of the system is the only way I may know about a disease, especially if it is a rare one. Responsible farmers are not ducking around this. People have nothing to be ashamed about. I'd shy from someone trying to avoid trace back and I'd make sure any purchases I made were accounted for.

So if Hoof and Mouth hits this country, the USDA should just kill every cow in the country as the only way to prevent it's spread? If not, which cows should be quarantined? If we knew that the cows with Hoof and Mouth were from your farm, wouldn't it make sense to quarantine your farm and the farm you bought cows from and the farms you sold cows to and all the farms that bought cattle at the same livestock sales you had your cows at? A broad quarantine and test might be as large as a hundred farms. A disease as dangerous and contagious would require quarantine of every possible exposed cow. But you are against this. 

If I lived 50 miles away from you and hadn't had any cows off the farm for years and hadn't bought any, I wouldn't want to be bothered, because the problem doesn't involve me. 

But, if no one could trace where you'd gotten the diseased cow and couldn't trace where you'd sold cows, a massive kill zone could effect me. 

No one is limiting the buying and selling of your cows by requiring the data base be kept up to date. But your refusal could negatively impact many others. 

Do the math: 2.52 million cattle slaughtered each month, times 12, times 10 different cattle diseases. I think that's about a third of a billion. 

The USDA wants a number they can assign to your farm's location, an ear tag in the ear of any cow that you sell off the farm and an up date to the database when the cows change hands. You call that plan complex. Your solution is 302,400,000 lab tests?

We need to swap out that foil hat for a thinking cap and craft a more workable plan than that. As the corn crib said to the farmer, "I'm all ears."

A big quarantine zone isn't a big killing zone. A lot depends on the disease. 

You aught not be suspect that the data base comes into play when an animal is sold. You may have noticed that when a cow is sold it goes to a different farm. If it is sick, it stands a better chance to infect those cows that it did before it sold.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

The disease that the government is moving to Kansas is Hoof and Mouth. No form of NAIS will stop them from a large kill zone. Also, with TB. Its in your deer herd, good luck erradicating it.. They aren't going to track them, and there isn't a way to stop it. From my understanding that is why the problem in Michigan hasn't gone away.


Now in NY, we have TB in a domestic deer herd, only a matter of time before that spreads. It is the kind that also effects humans..


As far as testing. You test the animal before it is sold. If you know the following tuesday your shipping the animal or animals. You draw a blood sample on Monday, or do the TB check for Thursday (shot monday). Then results are known usually by that Friday or Monday at the latest. Perhaps the money spent on enforcing NAIS and the USDA's budget having to be increased as well. That could go towards more lab technicians.


I am not asking for you to TEST if your not selling. You ONLY test if your selling.. It can be done.. But I keep saying it over and over and over again. NAIS doesn't stop disease before it spreads, and that is what will deal with disease, is to STOP IT BEFORE it spreads.


Jeff


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Jeff:"The disease that the government is moving to Kansas is Hoof and Mouth. No form of NAIS will stop them from a large kill zone. Also, with TB. Its in your deer herd, good luck eradicating it.. They aren't going to track them, and there isn't a way to stop it. From my understanding that is why the problem in Michigan hasn't gone away."

The lab that is on an island on the East Coast is closing down. A new lab is opening up in Kansas. In England, a lab contributed to the spread of Hoof and Mouth thru a faulty drain system in their antiquated facility. With proper bio security it doesn't matter where a lab is located. Running people, specimens and supplies out to an island is simply too expensive when they can provide the same safeguards in Kansas for a lot less money. You know, less money, smaller government...

NAIS will drastically reduce the kill zone, drastically.


TB is in the deer herd in a corner of Michigan. It is believed to have existed in a very low number of deer for many years. It wasn't until sports clubs began dumping piles of feed to attract deer that they abandoned their natural browsing habits and began feeding nose to nose at the bait piles. The TB infection rate shot up. Then, cattle began to show up with TB. To curb TB, several steps were developed. Annual testing of all cattle in the suspect areas. RFID ear tags to provide verification to go with the testing.

The Department of Natural Resources issued lots of extra deer permits in these areas. This reduced the number of deer. Lower populations reduce the risk of spreading it thru less contact. Dumping feed, AKA baiting, the common way TB is spread among deer, is now prohibited. Farmers in the TB areas are encouraged to discontinue feeding near or in wood lots, to provide watering areas near buildings instead of in open streams, to place only a day's worth of feed for cattle, near buildings. In some cases, grants for tall fencing are available, to keep the deer out of pastures. 

Once a disease gets into the wild, it becomes much harder to control. NAIS will not be useful in tracing wild deer populations. But that doesn't mean the USDA, MDA and DNR should do nothing. 


"Now in NY, we have TB in a domestic deer herd, only a matter of time before that spreads. It is the kind that also effects humans.."

You are right, sort of...
If the TB positive deer in New York is eradicated there is no reason to believe it has spread to the wild deer population. One important difference between Michigan's wild deer spreading TB to cattle and New York's TB positive captive deer spreading it to wild deer is fencing. You aren't going to have wild deer nose to nose with captive deer over feed piles. The only way for them to have contact would be thru nose to nose contact thru the fence. Possible, but the probability is quite low.

In order for a human to get TB from a deer is to have an open cut come in contact with lung tissue. The meat is save to eat because there is no TB in the meat.

"I am not asking for you to TEST if your not selling. You ONLY test if your selling.. It can be done.. But I keep saying it over and over and over again. NAIS doesn't stop disease before it spreads, and that is what will deal with disease, is to STOP IT BEFORE it spreads."

I'm not talking about testing all cows all the time. Heck, I'm not talking about testing every time they are sold. The figures I gave were based on the total slaughter numbers alone! 

NAIS limits the spread by locating the potentially exposed animals, keeps them contained, preventing the spread of disease and focuses testing on those herds. Sometimes that is the farm where the infected cow lived and it also includes all the livestock that were in contact with the infected animal after it left that farm.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> NAIS will drastically reduce the kill zone, drastically.


Show me proof to that claim..



Jeff


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Without NAIS, about twelve years ago, the discovery of TB in Michigan cattle triggered the loss of Michigan's TB-free status, preventing interstate movement of cattle. It took two years and a lot of money to test every single cow in Michigan. This was necessary because there was no "paper trail" connected to the exposed cows.

Today, with NAIS, when a cow is found with TB, that herd is quarantined and any other farms connected by trace back and trace forward. NAIS prevents the need for a whole state quarantine.

Herds found to be positive are killed. The kill zone is small because of NAIS.

A captive deer tested positive for CWD. All captive deer in Michigan have the same RFID ear tag as cattle. The deer at that farm/ranch were tested. The deer at the farm where that deer was raised were tested. All those deer were negative. The trace back/ trace forward included just two premises. The kill zone was small.

Believe me now? Didn't think so.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Without NAIS, about twelve years ago, the discovery of TB in Michigan cattle triggered the loss of Michigan's TB-free status, preventing interstate movement of cattle. It took two years and a lot of money to test every single cow in Michigan. This was necessary because there was no "paper trail" connected to the exposed cows.
> 
> Today, with NAIS, when a cow is found with TB, that herd is quarantined and any other farms connected by trace back and trace forward. NAIS prevents the need for a whole state quarantine.
> 
> ...


Your talking about TB. The issue in California was also dealt with, without any problems and they do not have NAIS. In fact, they didn't have a large kill zone, and for that matter, one at all. TB isn't as big of an issue, as far as spreading as Hoof and Mouth is. Madcow for that matter, is like TB, it doesn't spread easily.

Hoof and Mouth however. Show me some proof that NAIS will prevent a large kill zone. Those herds in Calfornia were lucky, but I do think that is because they were a large dairy. If it were 30 cows, I dont think they would have been so kind.


Jeff


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Jeff, if you are asking me to show you an example of how NAIS has limited the spread and reduced the kill zone from an out break of Hoof and Mouth in this country, I can't. 
You asked for an example of how NAIS has reduced the kill zone and I gave you two.

Check it out, Jeff. Those cows in California did have RFID ear tags and the F.A.I.R. data base was used to trace back those cows. 

The USDA was able to trace one of those California cows to a dairy in western Michigan. Those cows were checked and are fine. In fact, all the trace back herds were negative. In addition to the TB testing of cattle, the Lab in Ames, Iowa was able to determine that the TB was not the same strain that was found in Michigan, but was a strain found in cattle in Mexico, known as a Mexican strain. I have no information if a farm worker was the carrier in this instance. Probably not.

I can only shake my head at your deep seated belief that the USDA is going to kill the cows from a small farm while leaving those of the big farm alone.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Mexican TB couldn't have come from imported Mexican cattle inspected by the USDA could have it?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I think it generally comes from illegal aliens riding them across the border at night.....


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Looks like they have been pretty busy some months.http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/MeatTrade/CattleMonthly.htmA lot of the calves are put out to graze, roping cattle for rodeo are also included in the total.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Jeff, if you are asking me to show you an example of how NAIS has limited the spread and reduced the kill zone from an out break of Hoof and Mouth in this country, I can't.
> You asked for an example of how NAIS has reduced the kill zone and I gave you two.


Just prooved my point. Support for a program, that has yet to be tested with a major outbreak..



Jeff


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

You critisize USDA for getting a plan together, you refuse to accept that it has been shown to work a few times for a few different diseases, then you critisize it because it is untested for a specific dreaded disease.
What do you suggest? Perhaps the USDA should release Hoof and Mouth in this country to prove to you that it worls? 
If that's what it takes for you to support NAIS, you are the lost cause, not NAIS.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

There are quite a few cases of TB in New York. It is the Mexican Strain. It didn't get into New York because the USDA failed to inspect cattle imported into this country. It gets into New York from tainted cheese smuggled into this country and cheese made in private homes by people infected with TB.

Since cattle imported into this country must be TB tested and have a Health Certificate, completed by a Veterinarian, it is very unlikely that the dairy cow that tested positive for TB in California got it from a cow from Mexico.


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

We have had witnesses, in the presence of USDA personnel, who have seen cattle coming across our border with no check or vaccination of any kind. The USDA personnel did not take exception to the remarks. USDA is not doing their current job. They are not to be trusted now or in the future when NAIS is crammed down our throats. Who knows how diseases are getting into this country.




haypoint said:


> There are quite a few cases of TB in New York. It is the Mexican Strain. It didn't get into New York because the USDA failed to inspect cattle imported into this country. It gets into New York from tainted cheese smuggled into this country and cheese made in private homes by people infected with TB.
> 
> Since cattle imported into this country must be TB tested and have a Health Certificate, completed by a Veterinarian, it is very unlikely that the dairy cow that tested positive for TB in California got it from a cow from Mexico.


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

It is sad to hear certain folks on this board parrot USDA's alleged change of NAIS from a mandatory to a voluntary program. Perhaps they could use some swampland or a nice used bridge? Using the USDA Memorandum of September 22, 2008, vets in Missouri started assigning Premise ID numbers to farms that refused to get them, if the vets were there on business. This makes it a mandatory program. Thank God we have a law against the state assigning mandatory Premise IDs. I'm not sure if this is what temporarily stopped it or not but USDA has backed off it's memo. It is at http://www.libertyark.net/APHIS-PIN-Mandate-080922.pdf .


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> You critisize USDA for getting a plan together, you refuse to accept that it has been shown to work a few times for a few different diseases, then you critisize it because it is untested for a specific dreaded disease.
> What do you suggest? Perhaps the USDA should release Hoof and Mouth in this country to prove to you that it worls?
> If that's what it takes for you to support NAIS, you are the lost cause, not NAIS.


NAIS has not been tested with a LARGE scale outbreak..


Jeff


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

So you want to see how NAIS handles a LARGE scale outbreak?
The USDA can't win with you no matter what, can they?

NAIS has been able to nip disease outbreaks in the bud so you discredit the program as unproven on a major disease out break.

If there was a LARGE scale disease outbreak, you'd be yelling that the USDA isn't doing their job, allowing a widespread disease outbreak. 

I'm sure that you'd give no credit to the USDA for the procedures they have in place to deal with most of the diseases that could hit this country. I'm sure their training involving a variety of scenarios means nothing to you.

A couple years ago, Michigan Department of Agriculture, in conjunction with USDA, did a training exercise with a mock Avian Influenza outbreak. The news media was allowed to come and watch. The enclosed trailer, loaded with blood draw syringes, vials for blood and swabs for collecting cultures, tyvek coveralls and other protective clothing was brought in. MDA Vets and their assistants went thru this mock emergency. There were several stations with live chickens and staff posed as farm owners at each station. Vets obtained throat and vent cultures and practiced drawing blood from these chickens. Several newspapers ran positive articles after viewing those professionals at work.

These mock emergencies allow staff to become familiar with established procedures, preventing the "dog and pony show" some folks expect. By being proactive, having a plan established "just in case" instead of being reactive and trying to cover bases during an emergency earns my trust. 

While I'd like to see you proven wrong in a major disease outbreak, I'll settle for a USDA that generally is able to put out the small outbreaks before they cause too much damage.

NAIS works smoothly on disease outbreaks of a smaller scale and there is no reason it couldn't work on a large outbreak.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Comparing a small disease outbreak, to a region wide disease outbreak, then assuming that it would work the same? Sorry, but a region wide outbreak has the one problem of actual containment.. Its why id like to see the system actually tested, so it can proove all us naysayers that it in fact prevented a large kill zone, it was fast, efficent etc.. Because a small outbreak, well thats nothing compared to a large scale outbreak.. NAIS will trace all day long, but wont stop it.


Jeff


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

What is the incubation period for TB? There is no reason an animal couldn't develop TB after being tested besides no test is 100%. I feel pretty safe that dairy farmers aren't feeding their cows TB infected smuggled cheese. And since the cattle are unloaded and inspected and held at the border then reloaded on the US side there is probably no smuggled Mexicans in the trucks.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Allen W said:


> What is the incubation period for TB? There is no reason an animal couldn't develop TB after being tested besides no test is 100%. I feel pretty safe that dairy farmers aren't feeding their cows TB infected smuggled cheese. And since the cattle are unloaded and inspected and held at the border then reloaded on the US side there is probably no smuggled Mexicans in the trucks.


The issue down in California with RuAnn Dairy, was that the animal was tested at a younger age. She was later tested, and she came back positive. There were animals moved mostly between Maddox Dairy, and RuAnn Dairy. I also heard it was a strain that can be tested for, however you can have a negative return. The cow as 8 years old I beleive, it was tested when it was 2-3 years old.


So yes, it is possible TB could be tested for, and you might not get a reaction. Animal spreads, and there is no way of knowing. No form of testing or NAIS can prevent that.


Jeff


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

JeffNY wrote, "Comparing a small disease outbreak, to a region wide disease outbreak, then assuming that it would work the same? Sorry, but a region wide outbreak has the one problem of actual containment.. Its why id like to see the system actually tested, so it can proove all us naysayers that it in fact prevented a large kill zone, it was fast, efficent etc.. Because a small outbreak, well thats nothing compared to a large scale outbreak.. NAIS will trace all day long, but wont stop it."

I doubt you'd be happy with any situation the USDA handled. If there was a wide spread disease outbreak that included 100 farms and 10 states that required the testing and distruction of 10,000 cows, you'd say the kill zone was large, even though without NAIS their might have been a kill zone that included 1000 farms, 20 states and 100,000 cows. 
While you claim to be satisfied if the USDA would actually use NAIS to complete a trace back and eradicate a disease in those areas identified. But when I provide you with a couple real life actual cases, you raise the requirement to large scale. If USDA is doing their jobs, there shouldn't be any large scale disease outbreaks.

Since NAIS is designed to be a time saver, that allows for a focused response, it seems doubtful that unless we were hit with a widespread bio-terriorism event, there would'nt be a region wide kill zone.

Allen writes "And since the cattle are unloaded and inspected and held at the border then reloaded on the US side there is probably no smuggled Mexicans in the trucks."

Well, gee, Allen. If the TB infected illegal aliens aren't coming across in the UDSA inspected cattle trucks, do ya suppose they get into this country some other way?

JeffNY wrote:"I also heard it was a strain that can be tested for, however you can have a negative return." 

Tests for most diseases can show a false positive and there is a small chance for a false negative. When you get a positive for TB, you don't call it a positive, it is a "suspect". At the time of the TB test, all suspects would get a vial of blood drawn and shipped to a Lab for further tests, more expensive and more accurate.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

Enough already! NAIS is coming like it or not!!!!!!!


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I know it is, francismilker. I'm just trying to put a little Vasoline on it.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> I doubt you'd be happy with any situation the USDA handled. If there was a wide spread disease outbreak that included 100 farms and 10 states that required the testing and distruction of 10,000 cows, you'd say the kill zone was large, even though without NAIS their might have been a kill zone that included 1000 farms, 20 states and 100,000 cows.
> While you claim to be satisfied if the USDA would actually use NAIS to complete a trace back and eradicate a disease in those areas identified. But when I provide you with a couple real life actual cases, you raise the requirement to large scale. If USDA is doing their jobs, there shouldn't be any large scale disease outbreaks.


Show some proof of that.. Show me that it would lessen the outbreak and kill zone.. Because so far, you have gone on a wim, vs actual facts. A disease with NAIS in place could spread to 20 states, and involve 100,000 cows.. Some diseases like it or not, spread regardless of how strict a program might be.

As I said, show me proof to back up your claim, that it would lessen the area involved.


Jeff


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

OK, we know what an atomic bomb does to one city, but it has never been proven on a large scale so the effects of nuclear warfare are untested and therefor we can't judge the effectiveness of such a weapon?
First you say it can't work. I list a couple examples. Now you want proof of a large scale outbreak. I can give you proof it works on a state wide scale, but you want more. 

How can you expect proof of an actual event for a program that is just now getting rolling? I guess you need to grasp the concept and I don't think you have.

Diseases do spread, no matter what. But once discovered we can stop the spread of most diseases by stopping the movement of all potentially exposed animals. If we don't know where some of our recent purchases have been, our farm gets added to the list of potentially exposed. The more animals that fall into that " unknown place of origin" or "untraceable" the larger the number of farms placed on quarantine. 

Without a grid system to place animals inside a specific area (that's where your premise ID comes in) the quarantine would have to be by zip code or county wide or some other method to insure that all potentially exposed animal within an area are quarantined.

In cases that testing cannot be done on live animals, potentially exposed animals could be put down. The more potentially exposed animals there are, the larger the kill zone.

If a disease had, as you suggested, spread to 20 states, 100,000 cows would be a small quarantine. Without NAIS we could expect a much higher number.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> If a disease had, as you suggested, spread to 20 states, 100,000 cows would be a small quarantine. Without NAIS we could expect a much higher number.


This is what I am talking about. How do you know that?


Jeff


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## Zorro_Bones (Nov 1, 2005)

They already had measures in place before NAIS, There where government regulations that did require certain testing for market products or raw material (in this case live animals) that had to be certified by the tester before it could go to market, all NIAS is is big business like Cargill who want it so it makes their work easier and so they don't need as many employees to do the job and it helps them get paid more for doing less.
And some of these big businesses are even public businesses, quite a few are private.
So in all reality it is some rich people's idea on how to make more money for themselves and kill the competition so to speak.
WE DON'T NEED NAIS!
The market testing requirements have been there long before this and if people did their jobs right there wouldn't be such a big problem with outbreaks, but there's people who are paid off to let that one heard go to market which didn't pass inspection but still looks healthy, and low and behold there's a case of hoof and mouth a month later.
We don't need more bureaucratic baloney, all we need is people just doing their jobs and doing them with integrity and honesty.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

This is the part you just can't seem to wrap your mind around.
If a disease was found in 20 states and there wasn't a way to ascertain what cows came from where, all the cows from each of those states would be possible suspects and therefore, all the farms in each state would not be allowed to move any cows. If it were something like TB, nothing would move until each cow in each of the 20 states was tested for TB. You are now talking about millions of cows and a shut down lasting up to a year. If it were a disease that could only be tested by killing the animal, you are talking about costs running into the billions of dollars.

With NAIS, they know what cows came from where. They know what cows were at what county fair, livestock auction or who's farm, ranch or feedlot. They would know with a fair degree of certainty which cows were not in any way exposed and which ones have the potential of being exposed. 

Just those that have animals that could have been exposed are the focus. Only those farms that have potentially exposed animals would be subject to quarantine, testing and possible killing. 

How do I know that? I have grasped the concept, I see how it works. I understand the plan.

Let me try with another example. Let's say I'm selling peanut butter. I sell to 20 companies. Let's say you sell peanut butter and sell to 20 different companies. One of my customers sells to a grocery store that discovers it is contaminated with salmonella. Since we know who sold the grocery store the tainted peanut butter and we can trace back to me, they would include all 20 of my customers and all of the places they marketed their peanut butter in a quarantine and recall. 

If there were no record of who sold what to who, as is the case in most livestock sales, they would have to pull all peanut butter off the shelves and you'd be out of business, even though the contamination wasn't associated with you in any way. 

By being able to focus, thru trace back, the rest of the peanut butter industry can continue to market a good product. This limits the recall to just the products that are potentially contaminated, greatly reducing the "kill zone". 

I know peanut butter is brown and while some cows are brown, some are black and white, plus each jar of peanut butter does not have a RFID ID inside, making this analogy an example of trace back that differs in many ways from NAIS. But the concept is the same. While it does use a data base, it really isn't rocket science.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Again haypoint, your going on a theoretical assumption, vs actual facts. Untill its tested, we simply will not know how it works. Using Michigan is not a big example.


The strain of TB here in NY found in the domestic deer herd is bovine TB. They are trying to erradicate it..


Funny they were able to find it, without any NAIS. Oh wait, they TESTED for it... If a major outbreak occured, and its hoof and mouth, they wont simply go "oh look this cow is fine, this cow is fine". This has been untested.


Jeff


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Zorro Bones, you have every right to be a ramblin' man and ramble on. Looks like you are exercising that right. 
As Jeff and I continue to beat this dead horse, I find your comments interesting. 

That this web site contains hundreds of postings on NAIS and you are still railing about the big guy putting the little guy out of business and the government in bed with big business.

This is the same ground that has been plowed a hundred times over all ready.

If I were to submit comments like yours, I'd get accused of trolling. But I'll assume that you believe the things you wrote here.


Here is Zorro Bones entire post, with mu comments in bold:"They already had measures in place before NAIS. *There is no effective measure in place, none.* There where government regulations that did require certain testing for market products or raw material (in this case live animals) that had to be certified by the tester before it could go to market, *There still is, but it would drive everyone out of business if we each had to test every animal for everything before it went to market* all NIAS is is big business like Cargill who want it so it makes their work easier and so they don't need as many employees to do the job and it helps them get paid more for doing less. *Cargill isn't the only place benefiting from RFID. Cargill could have their own system and lock the little guy out. Is that what you want?*
And some of these big businesses are even public businesses, quite a few are private.
So in all reality it is some rich people's idea on how to make more money for themselves and kill the competition so to speak. *No, this is a plan that includes everyone and levels the playing field so the little guy can compete.*
WE DON'T NEED NAIS! *Yes we do.*
The market testing requirements have been there long before this and if people did their jobs right there wouldn't be such a big problem with outbreaks, *If you think that the only farmers that have a problem with disease are folks that aren't doing their jobs right, You are wrong. There are plenty of farms that discovered a disease that were doing their jobs right. *but there's people who are paid off to let that one heard go to market which didn't pass inspection but still looks healthy, and low and behold there's a case of hoof and mouth a month later. *Just where do you come up with this stuff?*
We don't need more bureaucratic baloney, all we need is people just doing their jobs and doing them with integrity and honesty.? *Oh, look! There's Lassie waiting at the end of the driveway.*


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Jeff, you can't have it both wsays. You don't want to try this program, while you base your refusal on the fact that it hasn't been tested on a large scale. 

"Using Michigan is not a big example."
Tell that to the hundreds of farmers that lost their TB free status and couldn't ship out of state. Tell that to the Vets that tested for TB every day for over a year in the state. Tell that to the hundreds of farmers that are still in business because their markets are opening up for their cows because the NAIS program is providing the confidence buyers need to buy from Michigan.


The fact that bovine TB was found in deer in New York isn't proof that NAIS doesn't work or that there is another way to track disease. 

JeffNY:"Funny they were able to find it, without any NAIS. Oh wait, they TESTED for it... "

They tested for it? Check your facts. A hunter found something wrong with the deer he shot and it was tested. 

Do you want to buy cattle from the area where that deer was shot? Me neither.
If cattle in this area are tested and a few show positive, wouldn't you want to know if any of those cows you have in your barn came from that area? You could be in the saame situation Michigan farmers were in a decade ago. Loss of TB-free status is the loss of any out of state sale. If NAIS were in place, the only suspects would be cattle that had been in the area that deer lived. But if there is no way to show what cows were where, the whole state will need to be tested. Good luck.

"Funny they were able to find it, without any NAIS. Oh wait, they TESTED for it... If a major outbreak occured, and its hoof and mouth, they wont simply go "oh look this cow is fine, this cow is fine". This has been untested."

OK, I'll use your example. If there is a case of Hoof and Mouth in this country, will the USDA order the killing of every cow in the entire country, or will they focus on the herds that the known infected cows came from or crossed paths with? Oh, I know, they'll let the big farms go aand kill the cattle of the small farmer. Jeez!

With something as serious as Hoof and Mouth, there isn't time to be monkeying around. They'll need to be able to use sound data to locate potentially contaminated cows quiickly. If I bought cattle from a herd that has Hoof and Mouth disease, I can expect to lose my herd in the eradication efforts. If I have had no connection to the diseased animals, NAIS will provide that assurance, I can depend on being left alone.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> They tested for it? Check your facts. A hunter found something wrong with the deer he shot and *it was tested.*


Do you contradict yourself often? You just said what I said, they tested for it. I checked my facts, and you just prooved me right. They tested for it.. You feeling ok?


Jeff


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Haypoint you made me think of something. Testing... This incident in NY actually goes to show that the lack of testing PRIOR to shipping an animal, has resulted in a problem that could become quite burdensome for some. The fact the animal was ONLY tested because it was acting strange, is how many animals will be detected even with NAIS.. By that time, the disease could have already spread, creating more of a problem. 

When you consider the fact if the deer were tested prior, it would have been detected. Perhaps avoiding this issue. Same goes with RuAnn dairy. Perhaps if testing was in place before those "mexican cattle" were allowed on the farm, there wouldn't have been any issues. Testing might be a pain, but testing AFTER it is already an issue, is the only time the tracing can begin.


Its why the NAIS system is flawed.

Jeff


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

Haypoint you made me think of something. Testing... This incident in NY actually goes to show that the lack of testing PRIOR to shipping an animal, has resulted in a problem that could become quite burdensome for some. The fact the animal was ONLY tested because it was acting strange, is how many animals will be detected even with NAIS.. By that time, the disease could have already spread, creating more of a problem. 

When you consider the fact if the deer were tested prior, it would have been detected. Perhaps avoiding this issue. Same goes with RuAnn dairy. Perhaps if testing was in place before those "mexican cattle" were allowed on the farm, there wouldn't have been any issues. Testing might be a pain, but testing AFTER it is already an issue, is the only time the tracing can begin.


Its why the NAIS system is flawed.

Jeff


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## Zorro_Bones (Nov 1, 2005)

No offense but you have a double post JeffNY.


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

jeff, you've had a week to come with an answer on where we are going to come up with all the needles to do your testing.... where will the needle factory(s) be built? and who will pay for them????


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

francismilker
Thank you for you comment that it is coming regardless! We need to call a truce! The consumer wants it, the Gov is going to implement it and we are going to get a number in time. Does it matter where the number comes from, tax number pin, drivers license, SS #, NAIS ? I have learned to concern myself with those things I can impact. This is an issue that I cannot influence so I will fret elsewhere.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

RedHogs said:


> jeff, you've had a week to come with an answer on where we are going to come up with all the needles to do your testing.... where will the needle factory(s) be built? and who will pay for them????


I've already addressed a program that would take care of this, but obviously you skirted over it. A program called NYSCHAP, which involves your herd in testing.. Who said there needs to be a needle factory? The last I knew, there are plenty of needles to go around, and it seems your more concerned over a needle factory, than disease itself.


Here is what's amusing. People want a program that tracks their animals. Yet they dont want to do any testing to prevent the disease. Ever heard of the saying "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?". The TB issue in NY would have likely been prevented, if the animals were tested prior to coming to NY. But because people dont care to test, look at what happens. How NAIS would have prevented that is a good question. But see, it isn't to stop or prevent disease. Only to trace animals.


So let me ask you redhogs. Who will enforce NAIS? And how?


Jeff


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

fine jeff, I'll answer your question.... to show you how it's done...

the question is how and who will enforce NAIS.....

the answer is easy and direct, ultimately it will be privately enforced....

any business that deals with livestock will be inspected by the usda.... this means the sale barns, slaughterhouses, vets, rodeos, and fairs.... these are already inpsected and the manpower is available to do so.... they will not inpect every animal, but the private groups will by demanding eartags or premise ID's..... for example.... Your milk truck will deliver you a letter saying we need your premise ID on file by 1-1-10, the letter will give you a number to call or fax....

the usda can do a spot audit and check for compliance very quickly, If they find the a dairy has not filed and is still selling milk, the plant will be fined....

this allows for compliance without the nasty PR of coming to your farm... and without the needed additional manpower.

You have this idea that it has to be 100% to be successfull, we will have increased biosecurity with the implementation of the program in short order... you will register or hide underground... a win - win for biosecurity....

Jeff, you will register..... given the choice of no milk check or register.... you will register.... No bad press, no show down with the government, you will just fax the paper and be done with it.

How many needles will it take per month???? .... now, answer my question


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

RedHogs said:


> You have this idea that it has to be 100% to be successfull, we will have increased biosecurity with the implementation of the program in short order... you will register or hide underground... a win - win for biosecurity....


As I have said, and I will say it once again. NAIS will not diminish disease chance. There are plenty of diseases that could be passed to a farm, even with NAIS. One is TB, another nasty one, is BVD-PI cows. You could pick up BVD-PI at an auction barn VERY easily, as none of those animals are tested for the disease. They are however tested for it before state fairs, and even our county fair.. It is a good requirement as that disease can ruin your herd. Again, biosecurity isn't increased by simply implementing NAIS on your farm. Implementing testing ALONG with NAIS, will increase your bio-security. Ask yourself, if you bring in a few animals untested, and they could be carrying TB, or some other disease. How does that enhance your bio-security?



> Jeff, you will register..... given the choice of no milk check or register.... you will register.... No bad press, no show down with the government, you will just fax the paper and be done with it.


That is bordering communism, do as the government says or else. Because milk is pasteurized, and is touted as being safe. Obviously it isn't, if they do go that route. Also enforcing it via the private sector is going to require a lot of $$$. The farmer is going to incure more expensive for a program that doesn't prevent disease. The farmer would be best to spend that money on testing, than NAIS. Atleast through testing, you can identify disease, and cull animals that might have something easily spread (like BVD-PI). Someone posted a link stating it has cost over 350 million in Australia to farmers, if true, thats not good.




> How many needles will it take per month???? .... now, answer my question




That will depend how big your herd is. Needles are very inexpensive, when compared to the result you would get if your herd ended up having a BVD-PI outbreak, or TB.. Something easily tested for... NAIS will trace it back (even though your herd is infected already), but do you realise what either of those diseases could do to your herd, if it spread?


Jeff

An Ounce of Prevention Is Worth a Pound of Cure.


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## Jay (Feb 5, 2008)

I don't have fax capabilities. I know many folks with critters who don't like nor have computers.
In this fast paced world, using "snail mail" is the only option for some.
What happens if you can't fax or email??

If *all* the animals are tagged (not just in "groups") then it shall be fair. Then you can literally track each animal, not just pen or group so-n-so. 
Cost effective for the larger places? Doubtful.

Bio security is nill...people track what they have from thier farm wherever they go...workers, too. (I know places that do NOT use shower in/shower out. For shame!)
Animals raised in confinement or large, close groups have less immunity than those raised on pasture with room to roam.
No different than kids being cooped up inside all the time versus kids that get out and roam around.


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## JKB07 (Mar 6, 2008)

Havent read the whole thread.... but from what I have read.... Jeff is right... 

JKB


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Jay, Don't worry, all cattle get tagged, large groups and small. The only exception would be the tiny percentage that are kept together from birth to death. That is either a small group or a large group. While I'd like to think that pasture raised animals have more immunity than confinement, I'm not sure that's ever been proved. Pasture raised are exposed to more disease, so I guess they might build up more resistance. I doubt there is more disease in confined livestock, because they seldom get exposed to diseases.
Tagging animals with a RFID is different depending on the specie. The horse folks are leaning towards an implant while ear tags for cattle are the norm. I think reporting the sale and purchase would have differences, too. The system for cattle in Michigan is simple. You don't need a computer. If you sell thru any of the Livestock Auctions, they take care of it. If you sell out of state, it is done with the Health Certificate. For private sales, you can use your phone. No one needs a FAX machine or computer. It really isn't hard or expensive.

JKB07, it would be hard to decide who's "right" without knowing what NAIS is, how it works and then reading thru the 4 or 5 Homesteadingtoday threads on the NAIS topic. This thread is actually about the requirements for showing livestock at 4H fairs and exhibits. It has shifted to totally NAIS many pages ago. Since Jeff has made many statements withing this thread, I'd like to ask you if you think he is right in all of his posts, the last few or were you just jumping in on his last post? 

Jeff, if TB and BVD were the only diseases that cattle get, I'd be able to see your point of testing instead of tracking disease. But there are many others, so testing every cow or every pig for a dozen of the more common livestock diseases becomes impractical. Testing is not the answer when a new disease crops up. Take Avian Influenza (bird flu) for example. Before that strain appeared, there was no test for it. People would be moving fully tested fowl all over the place, spreading the disease everywhere. With a tracking system, once the disease was identified, exposed birds could be located and the flocks that those birds went to could be tested. Requiring the testing of every chicken in this country (billions?) because of a few sick chickens in a farmers market in San Diego is not a reasonable/feasible method for disease control. Tracking the AI chickens back to where they came from provides a place to trace forward to every farm that bought from them. Locating the source and then locating the potentially exposed animals narrows the focus of the outbreak and allows quicker testing of potentially exposed animals. Regional or state-wide quarantines is expensive to the producers (farmers) and unfair to those that haven't been anywhere near the exposure.
That crap about what Australia's NAIS costs or how poorly is works was effective scare tactics/urban myths only until we've seen it work in this country. No longer do we need to depend on some anonymous posting about something half a world away. Michigan (and others) have it in place and it is cheap and runs smoothly. The cat is out of the bag and it is a tabby not a bob.
By driving the untraceable animals out of commerce, the underground that Redhogs refers to isn't going to co-mingle with the legitimate livestock. That improves bio security by reducing the mixing of livestock. The traceable kept separate from the underground.

Ask yourself if you bring in cattle tested for a host of diseases, but they have a disease that you didn't test for or weren't ware of, how does testing prevent disease? Testing can not prevent disease. It is impractical to test for every disease known to man and even if you could, there are diseases that cannot be tested for while the animal is alive. When that disease shows up at a slaughterhouse, all the testing in the world won't slow the spread of that disease. We need to know where it came from to keep those animals from being moved to other farms, spreading the disease to other farms.


NAIS will not prevent disease any more than testing will. It will limit the spread. We've been thru that discussion a few times already. 


Right now, there is a new horse disease. It didn't exist in this country, so no one was testing for it. Now the USDA has the task of tracking down every exposed horse. Some of this disease spread has been thru semen. Records need to be poured over. Some may not want to reveal the names and locations of exposed horses. While this disease was caught early and there is no huge epidemic, it is a costly search process. If NAIS had been place the task would have been faster and perhaps more complete. While many of the horses involved already have the RFID implant, many others don't. Testing wouldn't have prevented this and the USDA trace back will limit further exposures. Here is what Michigan horse owners have gotten:







Dear Michigan equine stakeholder:
SUBJECT: Contagious Equine Metritis - Michigan Update
As the investigation on Contagious Equine Metritis (CEM), a sexually transmitted
Foreign Animal Disease (FAD) of horses caused by Taylorella equigenitalis, continues,
MDA will provide periodic updates. CEM once confirmed is easily controlled, is
treatable with antimicrobials, and does not affect humans.
The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Animal and Plant Health
Inspection Service (APHIS) Veterinary Services (VS) continues to conduct the
epidemiological investigation and has identified 28 mares in Michigan that have been
exposed to CEM positive stallions or semen, 14 of which have been confirmed
pregnant.
USDA VS field veterinarians have been assigned to the cases and are conducting the
investigations which include quarantining the mares, interviewing the owners, testing for
CEM, and reporting the results. Any mares that test positive will receive treatment. If
we find a CEM positive stallion we will make a formal announcement, but will not
identify the horse or owner in a public statement as that information is protected under
Act 466, the Animal Industry Act. The stallion will receive treatment and owners of
mares exposed to CEM positive stallions or semen will be contacted privately.
The following information is from USDA VS:
As of January 16, 2009, a total of nine stallions have been confirmed as positive for
CEM by USDAâs National Veterinary Services Laboratories. Four of the infected
stallions are located in Kentucky (three Quarter Horse stallions and one Paint stallion),
three are in Indiana, one is in Texas and one is in Wisconsin.
All three Indiana Paint stallions and the Texas Quarter Horse stallion were resident in
2008 on the central Kentucky premises where the initial CEM detection occurred, but
the newly detected positive Wisconsin stallion has not been on the Kentucky premises.
Michigan equine stakeholder
January 20, 2009
Page 2
The Wisconsin stallion was co-located during the 2007 breeding season, on a facility in
Wisconsin, with one of the three positive stallions currently in Indiana. He is a Friesian
stallion imported in late 2004 from the Netherlands and reportedly was resident in
California for the 2005 and 2006 breeding seasons before moving to Wisconsin in
October 2006.
In addition to the 9 positive stallions, the locations of 326 exposed horses have now
been confirmed. The total of 334 horses includes 43 stallions and 291 mares located in
39 States.
There are 11 States known to have positive or exposed stallions: Alabama, Florida,
Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Ohio, Tennessee, Texas, and
Wisconsin. The number of exposed stallions continues to increase, most recently with
13 additional stallions determined to have been exposed to known CEM positive
stallions. The exposures were primarily through co-location at breeding facilities during
either the 2008 or 2007 breeding season.
There are 37 States known to have exposed mares: Arizona, Arkansas, California,
Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas,
Kentucky, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana,
Nebraska, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio,
Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas,
Utah, Virginia, Washington, and Wisconsin. There are 43 additional exposed mares still
actively being traced.
All known CEM-positive horses, and all known exposed horses that have been located,
are currently under quarantine or hold order. Testing and treatment protocols are being
put into action for all located horses.
Testing and sample collection protocols:
The CEM testing protocol and reference information for testing supplies has been
distributed to state and federal veterinarians.
Just a reminder to horse owners: if a private practice veterinarian collects samples from
exposed horses, the cost of the farm visit and collection will not be covered by MDA or
USDA but will be the responsibility of the client. Sample submissions need to follow
protocol for chain of custody which requires a regulatory official or approved courier
delivered samples.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

It will not limit the spread of disease. That is a unfounded statement. Here is why.. When a disease crops up, it becomes an issue, if an animal is a typhoid mary, that animal will spread the disease and not a soul will know, till its too late.


NAIS will not limit anything. It only allows traceability.. The animal is being traced, NOT the disease. In otherwords, the disease doesn't have an RFID tag. If we could track the disesase itself, yes it would be limited.


Jeff


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Jeff, I think you are beginning to grasp the concept. Since we can't tag the disease, we can limit it's spread by tracking the infected and potentially infected carrier of the disease. 

If the disease is in the animal, tracking the animal tracks the disease. When a disease crops up, knowing which animals were potentially exposed reduces the size of the quarantine. Without traceability every animal in the nation would be suspect, yours and mine. I don't want the intrusion if there is no way my herd was exposed. 

Yes, a typhoid Mary will spread the disease, until the disease is discovered. Then trace back tells who was spreading it and then trace forward shows who has been exposed. Without a way to identify just those that were potentially spreading it and those that were potentially exposed, we'd have to shut down everything and begin the process of testing everything. 

For now, let's look at the peanut butter salmonella problem that's going on now. When the tainted peanut butter was discovered, it was traced to one big plant. Then the "trace forward" was done. Every wholesale buyer was contacted and then the products that they made with that company's peanut butter were pulled. 

Wal Mart is able to keep most of their peanut butter on the shelves because their peanut butter comes from India or China. Food products like peanut butter, spinach and strawberries are traceable in ways not possible with livestock. It would be a waste to throw out all peanut butter and peanut butter products that were not associated with the processing factory that had the salmonella. 
By being able to focus on just the products from the source of the outbreak, USDA can turn their attention on those products.

Likewise, it would be needlessly expensive to quarantine and shut down thousands of farms that were not exposed to diseased livestock.


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## JeffNY (Dec 13, 2004)

haypoint said:


> Jeff, I think you are beginning to grasp the concept. Since we can't tag the disease, we can limit it's spread by tracking the infected and potentially infected carrier of the disease.
> 
> If the disease is in the animal, tracking the animal tracks the disease. When a disease crops up, knowing which animals were potentially exposed reduces the size of the quarantine. Without traceability every animal in the nation would be suspect, yours and mine. I don't want the intrusion if there is no way my herd was exposed.
> 
> ...


I understand the concept, problem is, there is a major flaw. An animal can spread disease without anyone knowing. THEN when it crops up, it is reported (if it is).. THEN they track. By the time they track it, it could already be a bigger problem. They do not track the disease, the animal they track can spread the disease to others, who spread it, and it continues. Finding the source, will not stop the problem of it spreading, especially if it has already left the farm.


Testing prior to shipping, would be another barrier.. As I said, diseases like BVD, can be a problem, and they aren't a disease they are concerned about.


Here is what I find odd. In this country we do not eat horse, yet they want to track the horse population. I remember you saying "consumer confidence". The last I knew, we didn't eat horse, so consumer confidence does not play into that sector. The reason for NAIS is becuase of the madcow scare a decade ago or so. The beef market is the reason for it, horse is not beef, its meat, but we do not eat horse or export horse meat..

Sounds more like a way to keep track of the numbers on your farm.. Because if you are enrolled, you tag your animals, individually. Of course the large CAFO's dont have to.


Jeff


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

JeffNY said:


> *Here is what I find odd. *In this country we do not eat horse, yet they want to track the horse population. I remember you saying "consumer confidence". The last I knew, we didn't eat horse, so consumer confidence does not play into that sector. Jeff


 Why do you find it "odd"? NAIS is to Trace Back Diseases, and being in the food supply or not Has Nothing to do with it NAIS is a Trace Back System for Animal Diseases, whether it is in the Food Supply or not~! Period.
And I have put this on here time and time again, this is why horses are included.


> *Horses are included....because the system is "designed" to trace disease - think strangles and other equine contagious diseases. Therefore, horses must be a part of the system. *


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## RedHogs (Jul 7, 2006)

> The reason for NAIS is becuase of the madcow scare a decade ago or so. The beef market is the reason for it, horse is not beef, its meat, but we do not eat horse or export horse meat..


jeff, you are advertising how little you know about this topic.... it was started with the pork lobby, years before mad cow... psuedorabies was the main disease that got people talking traceback in the pork circles... Madcow, has been a disease to get the pork and cattle farmers on the same page....

Jeff your individual tesing idea has not been thought out very well...


when a local farmer sells 30,000 day old chicks are they exempt from testing, because in 8 weeks they will be sold again, by yet another farmer..... not a corporation, just a large farmer... do we test these 30,000 chickens twice....

what about the other 20 million chickens will they are be individually tested???

what about feeder pigs, some are sold at 13 days old.... will these be tested....where do you put them while you wait for the test results, a sow farm would need to build a nursery to hold the pigs while the test results are processed.... would these pigs need to be retested in a few months when they are sold again by yet a different farmer...

as to your problem with the horse's inclusion .....lepto, read about it


tell us how this works....


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## Viking6 (Feb 5, 2009)

Well,
This is my take, I live in Michigan under manditory RFID. I agree with the concept of tracking cattle ( as we all know in a 12 month period a bull could have been to 12 different states). What i dont like is that it is manditory, people who oppose the use of electronic devices I.E (amish) have been left out. I look at this like CARFAX, people will pay more for a car that they know the history on, as opposed to not knowing anything about. My fear is that this is the prelude to THE TAXING of cattle. Once the system is in place, they pass legislation them mail the bill. We as Americans have seen it time and time again. Remember the INCOME TAX was never supposed to go over 3%, social security number was only going to be needed when it was time to collect benifits(now you cant even get a phone in your name with out it. My point is while i am ok with RFID, it should never be manditory, cause as we all know once they have power it is always ABUSED.............................................


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I think if you'd check, the Amish issue is being taken care of.
NAIS is not the prelude to tagging humans, tracking the movement of cattle, taxing cattle or any of the other nonsense spread by the fear mongers.
I saw some snow fall this morning. I doubt that is a sign that we are in for meteor showers that will scorch the earth. First one thing falls from the sky, who knows what's next?
There have been many attempts to derail this subject. I started a few just to give people a place to discuss their topic. This isn't a discussion about Carfax, Social Security or income taxes or even the idea of taxing cattle.
I don't have to give information to the privately owned Carfax for my information to be available to them. It is there, like it or not. They know when the car was sold, what state and the mileage and who knows what else. You don't "opt in" to Carfax.

Every cow that leaves the farm to be sold, traded or shown must have a RFID. Its been that way for the whole state for nearly a year. It has been that way for a few counties for a number of years. It works. No one is going broke, no attempts for the big guy to put the little guy out of business. No new taxes.


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## Viking6 (Feb 5, 2009)

Haypoint,
Being taken care of by who? Oh the same people who left them out before, I see.You are not looking at the point i made about one thing leads to another. I do not think they are going to tag humans. To me it would be the fact that WASHINGTON not Lansing has control. As I stated me and everyone else I know is ok WITH RFID UNDER THE CONTROL OF LANSING, not Washington. And I feel that my point about the other programs that were started UNDER the line Oh, it will only be used for this, or it will only be used for that are good points. Do you really think a cash strapped Government will say hmm we wont tax them. And as far as CARFAX, 2 cars of like make model will sell for different prices if one dont have it. Once the program is in place and they know how many animals you have mark my words they will tax them. USDA has already been taking comments on it, and with this whole go green thing it will happen. Where will the money come from to form the new system, cause it will no longer be just one state, they will have a COW CZAR(LOL). Anything Washington touches has a 100000% mark up.....


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Call the MDA, Animal Industry Division, they can explain it to you, direct from the horse's mouth.
Do you believe that the government needs NAIS so they can raise your taxes? There are a million other ways and places they can do that. You think they don't know what you put on your schedule F in your last seven years of income tax forms?
We can spend our lives worrying that everything leads to another. What it leads to no one knows. We can create all kinds of "boogie men" ready to jump out and get us. 

I, like you, believe that most things done on the federal level could be done on the state level, things done at the state level could be done on the county level, what the county does could be done by each township and most township business could be done by committed neighbors. 

Our founding fathers decided a long time ago that a state by state defence wasn't going to protect us from muslim pirates. Since that time there have been many reasons to establish things the uniformity that comes with one agency running the whole program. Some of that has been good and some has been bad.

With cattle being moved from state to state, it makes little sense to have 50 data bases to input data.


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## Texas_Plainsman (Aug 26, 2007)

You spelled defense as "defence"... are you English?



haypoint said:


> Call the MDA, Animal Industry Division, they can explain it to you, direct from the horse's mouth.
> Do you believe that the government needs NAIS so they can raise your taxes? There are a million other ways and places they can do that. You think they don't know what you put on your schedule F in your last seven years of income tax forms?
> We can spend our lives worrying that everything leads to another. What it leads to no one knows. We can create all kinds of "boogie men" ready to jump out and get us.
> 
> ...


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Are you the spelling police? Are you checking every-one's spelling, or just those that dispute your claims? Because if you are checking every-one's, you missed Jeff's "proove".


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