# It's all about heritage



## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

http://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/32371447-story?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Confederate flag supporters indicted for disrupting black child's birthday party.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

WHAT DOES &#8220;INDICTMENT&#8221; MEAN?

February 2, 2015
What Does &#8220;Indictment&#8221; Mean?
You&#8217;ve probably heard the word &#8220;indictment&#8221; on the news or in court shows. But what exactly does it mean? And what does it mean for a person that has been indicted?

&#8220;INDICTMENT&#8221;

An indictment is a formal accusation of a crime. A person that has been indicted has been formally accused of committing a crime.

There are other ways for a person to be accused of committing a crime, but in the United States indictments are used, especially for federal crimes, to formally accuse a person. They are used less frequently in state court systems. According to the Fifth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, a person cannot be charged with a capital or other infamous crime other than being indicted by a grand jury. But this amendment is not extended to state courts.

http://losangelescrimelawyer.com/indictment-mean/


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

From the link: "On Friday, the Grand Jury indicted 15 members of &#8220;Respect the Flag&#8221; on charges they violated Georgia&#8217;s Street Gang Terrorism and Prevention Act and terroristic threats." There were also two counts of battery from a second incident on the same day but at a different place.

They sound like wonderful people that are just proud of their heritage.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

I'm going to wait as well, they are just formally charged....that comes be for a trial. But tolerant folks are wonderful too.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> http://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/32371447-story?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
> 
> Confederate flag supporters indicted for disrupting black child's birthday party.


They were indicted for making threats.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Nevada said:


> They were indicted for making threats.


Yep.

And you've got a he said, she said situation in the middle of it. The Grand Jury thought there was enough evidence for a trial, to sort it all out.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Nevada said:


> They were indicted for making threats.


Two of them were indicted for battery for an incident the same day. They will all have their day in court just like everyone else. There was no indication from anyone that they wouldn't. 

From the original link:

"The indictment also charged two members of the group with battery for an incident that occurred that same day at a gas station in the area of Douglas County known as the Corn Crib."


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## Oldshep (Mar 28, 2015)

Two possibilities 1. They are accused of something they actually did.

2. They are accused of something they did not do.

Neither case would surprise me much.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

They should have done some looting, arson and rioting, then they'd have the support of the "government"


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

An attorney that graduated last in his class should be able to get them off.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> An attorney that graduated last in his class should be able to get them off.


Would you be saying the same thing if it was a group from BLM and a white kid's birthday party?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Cornhusker said:


> They should have done some looting, arson and rioting, then they'd have the support of the "government"


Those things are all a part of the heritage they seemed to be celebrating. Night riders, lynchings, church bombings. Often with tacit government support and, if one believes stories, with the participation of government officials themselves. Oh, for the good old days.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Over the top..:rotfl::rotfl:


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> Those things are all a part of the heritage they seemed to be celebrating. Night riders, lynchings, church bombings. Often with tacit government support and, if one believes stories, with the participation of government officials themselves. Oh, for the good old days.


No room there for your 'moderates"? 
I suspect you are probability right about the motives of people cruising in trucks with Confederate flags. But to lay that on posters here indescriminantly is only your own anger overriding reasonability. 
It's aligning with opposing hate rather than stopping hate.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> Would you be saying the same thing if it was a group from BLM and a white kid's birthday party?


No, unless BLM starts riding around in pickup trucks with flags flying.

Why not just discuss the actual incident instead of making one up? We have seen several incidents of blacks acting aggressively and/or violently when it comes to the Confederate flag. My opinion is that it is likely what happened in this case.

Riding around with a Confederate flag is likely protected speech. There might be a problem if it can be proved it was done to provoke, but that will be hard to prove. But again, imo, it was taken as a provocation and someone at the birthday party threw something. 

After that, both parties appear to be at fault. I think both sides will want the matter dropped. At least if they have any sense at all.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

mmoetc said:


> Those things are all a part of the heritage they seemed to be celebrating. Night riders, lynchings, church bombings. Often with tacit government support and, if one believes stories, with the participation of government officials themselves. Oh, for the good old days.


That's ridiculous and offensive.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

MoonRiver said:


> No, unless BLM starts riding around in pickup trucks with flags flying.
> 
> Why not just discuss the actual incident instead of making one up? We have seen several incidents of blacks acting aggressively and/or violently when it comes to the Confederate flag. My opinion is that it is likely what happened in this case.
> 
> ...


Just askin' an apposite question. I can see the same scenario happening during a BLM march with a BLM flag.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

where I want to said:


> No room there for your 'moderates"?
> I suspect you are probability right about the motives of people cruising in trucks with Confederate flags. But to lay that on posters here indescriminantly is only your own anger overriding reasonability.
> It's aligning with opposing hate rather than stopping hate.


Numerous replies. Show me the ones that say anything as moderate as " if the charges are proven true these people should be punished to the maximum extent of the law". It's a sentiment many of the moderates here have expressed when bad actions by those who they ostensibly approve of are pointed out. Suddenly, rather than calling for immediate jail time for disrupting a marathon we get a tolerant, wait and see attitudes underpinned by doubt that the black family celebrating a birthday might just be in the right. I &#322;ayed nothing on the posters here. I posted a news story from a fair and balanced source and invited comment. The comments themselves say everything about those who posted them.

Hate's not necessarily a bad thing. I hate the disease that took my granddaughter. I work against it every day. I hate the things people sometimes do in celebrating a heritage that includes oppressing others. I'll speak against when I see it. I hate people using legitimate issues to profit themselves. I ignore such people and speak against them while sometimes defending the issue they broach. I hate that any of this needs further explaining.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Cornhusker said:


> That's ridiculous and offensive.


Yet all things that happened. All things the flag in question represent to some. All better times longed for by others. Sometimes the truth and history are ridiculous and offensive when looked back upon. I'll admit I'm projecting motive but so are others here. My opinion, as someone repeatedly tells us, is as valid as any.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> Just askin' an apposite question. I can see the same scenario happening during a BLM march with a BLM flag.


Why, based on what... based on the active reaction to on getting off... the violence that took place... or it because of the reaction of white people shouting shoot the blacks at hate so each rallies... sorry with such a vivid imagination... not based on the facts that most people condemn such behavior ...but now when we speck out against black hate so each..... it is racist.

If those people are guilty the will have their day in court. Why pour gas on a fire unless you want to destroy via power others?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Latent homosexuals is a term... how about latent racists?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Art is in the mind of the viewer.... see a flag and get upset..... what in you causes that uncontrolled anger.. ?

Verse other feelings.. time to start owning dark secrets. Cause the first step is owning and seeing ..before the healing..... but in America you have every right to stay bitter ....even if it zaps ever happy moment from reach.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Jolly said:


> Yep.
> 
> And you've got a he said, she said situation in the middle of it. The Grand Jury thought there was enough evidence for a trial, to sort it all out.


Not just he said, she said. The article says part of the incident was captured on video.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> Numerous replies. Show me the ones that say anything as moderate as " if the charges are proven true these people should be punished to the maximum extent of the law". It's a sentiment many of the moderates here have expressed when bad actions by those who they ostensibly approve of are pointed out. Suddenly, rather than calling for immediate jail time for disrupting a marathon we get a tolerant, wait and see attitudes underpinned by doubt that the black family celebrating a birthday might just be in the right. I &#322;ayed nothing on the posters here. I posted a news story from a fair and balanced source and invited comment. The comments themselves say everything about those who posted them.
> 
> Hate's not necessarily a bad thing. I hate the disease that took my granddaughter. I work against it every day. I hate the things people sometimes do in celebrating a heritage that includes oppressing others. I'll speak against when I see it. I hate people using legitimate issues to profit themselves. I ignore such people and speak against them while sometimes defending the issue they broach. I hate that any of this needs further explaining.


I read the story. I read about the indictments. I read nothing about them using the word heritage. That was picked up from previous threads here and was used to link people here to this incident. So basically that must have been meant to tell people here that expressing that idea is eqivalent to approving of night riding lynchers. So you clearly did lay it on people here. And, whether it turns out to be true in some cases or not, it is improper in the same way that it is improper to be willing to hang an innocent man if it makes it easier to hang a guilty one.

No, I think hate is a bad thing always. It leads to irrational thoughts, speech and behavior. Hate is by definition irrational. And it consumes everything around it including the hater themselves. I can manage avoidance myself but hate is too hard.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

where I want to said:


> I read the story. I read about the indictments. I read nothing about them using the word heritage. That was picked up from previous threads here and was used to link people here to this incident. So basically that must have been meant to tell people here that expressing that idea is eqivalent to approving of night riding lynchers. So you clearly did lay it on people here. And, whether it turns out to be true in some cases or not, it is improper in the same way that it is improper to be willing to hang an innocent man if it makes it easier to hang a guilty one.
> 
> No, I think hate is a bad thing always. It leads to irrational thoughts, speech and behavior. Hate is by definition irrational. And it consumes everything around it including the hater themselves. I can manage avoidance myself but hate is too hard.


I read a number of articles. In morecthan one the group, Respect the Flag, is described as a "southern heritage organization". More than one poster here has claimed the flag is all about heritage and had nothing to do with racism. Thos story might prove that assertion false. And still no outcry that what the group did was wrong and may have incited any incident. A far cry from the reaction of many of the same people in other incidents. 

And we'll just have to disagree on hate. It's no more irrational than love. Both can be good, both can hurt.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

You might see racist... I see fortitude


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

The left says that the extremist Muslims have used the Koran for evil purposes and are the minority. That the right shouldn't judge all Muslims by a few extremists and should in fact embrace these moderates.

Yet, judging all who do honor our heritage with the Confederate flag even though only a few extremists have hijacked that flag for their extremist purposes is considered acceptable. I see.

And for the record, anyone found breaking the law on either side should be punished to the full extent of the law.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> Those things are all a part of the heritage they seemed to be celebrating. Night riders, lynchings, church bombings. Often with tacit government support and, if one believes stories, with the participation of government officials themselves. Oh, for the good old days.





mmoetc said:


> Numerous replies.
> 
> * Show me the ones that say anything as moderate as " if the charges are proven true these people should be punished to the maximum extent of the law". *
> 
> ...



Well, you almost saw that one from me last nite, it would have been post #3.

Something along the lines of, "Those are just a bunch of thugs and should've had their butts whipped for doing that to a child's birthday party, I'd prolly whipped it for'em myself!"


But I waited for two things.
#1, I wanted to see if this was a "bait thread" and just what your opinion was of a Southerner like me, who flies a rebel flag to this day, proudly I might add, and on some days angrily and defiantly.

I see from the first post above, exactly what you do think.
It's a ---- shame, but nothing I could say would change your opinion, so I won't waste any time on sincere sentiment or explanation.
I'm just white trash to you anyway.

#2, I read the story when it first came out, and wanted to see if there were any different details.
For instance, how in the world did their truck end up[ off the road and a flat tire?
The first version a month ago sounded like a KKK night rider run, only thing missing was a burnt cross on the lawn.
They had no business antagonizing a child's birthday party to be sure, that's where the whoopin' comes due.
But now I see where the truck was damaged, both sides drew guns and the clowns got run back to their side of town.
Good, handled, no need for cops now.



Nevada said:


> Not just he said, she said. The article says part of the incident was captured on video.


I'm sure whatever was shot on video is exactly what was wanted.
That won't tell me everything, but IS a piece of the evidence.



mmoetc said:


> I read a number of articles. In morecthan one the group, Respect the Flag, is described as a "southern heritage organization". More than one poster here has claimed the flag is all about heritage and had nothing to do with racism. Thos story might prove that assertion false. And still no outcry that what the group did was wrong and may have incited any incident. A far cry from the reaction of many of the same people in other incidents.
> 
> And we'll just have to disagree on hate. It's no more irrational than love. Both can be good, both can hurt.



Nothing in that story will change MY family's heritage and nothing in that story will make me take my rebel flag down.
Have you broke bread with the head of the NAACP in your state?
My condolences to Hank and his family, T.H. Sr. passed this summer, a few months ago, I believe at age 89.
http://touch.orlandosentinel.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-83396564/
(And yes, the sheriff in the story above was just as bad as he sounds. I grew up a few miles from him and they made a movie about it, Cool Hand Luke)

I wish the ---- yankees would just leave us Southerners alone and go push someone else's buttons.
:croc:


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> I read a number of articles. *In morecthan one the group, Respect the Flag, is described as a "southern heritage organization*". More than one poster here has claimed the flag is all about heritage and had nothing to do with racism. Thos story might prove that assertion false. And still no outcry that what the group did was wrong and may have incited any incident. A far cry from the reaction of many of the same people in other incidents.
> 
> And we'll just have to disagree on hate. It's no more irrational than love. Both can be good, both can hurt.


Do they call themselves that, or did some reporters just parrot the term in their stories?


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

This is what a racist flag looks like


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

And yet we must not condemn all followers of that peaceful religion which can not be named by those who do not follow it because it might offend them when some members of said peaceful religion rape women, cut the throats of people they disagree with and burn captured prisoners alive.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> And yet we must not condemn all followers of that peaceful religion which can not be named by those who do not follow it because it might offend them


No, we must not do it because that would be religious persecution.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

_New America_ is just awesome!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

farmrbrown said:


> Nothing in that story will change MY family's heritage and nothing in that story will make me take my rebel flag down.
> 
> I wish the ---- yankees would just leave us Southerners alone and go push someone else's buttons.
> :croc:


Who has forced, or even asked, you to take down your rebel flag?

I know of no movement to ban the confederate flag. To me it does represent an ugly time in American history, but I don't want it banned.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> I know of no movement to ban the confederate flag.


Um... really?

:shrug:


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> No, we must not do it because that would be religious persecution.


Yet we are told we must condemn all Southerns based on the actions of a few. Does that sound at least slightly hypocritical to you?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> Who has forced, or even asked, you to take down your rebel flag?
> 
> I know of no movement to ban the confederate flag. To me it does represent an ugly time in American history, but I don't want it banned.


MY flag?
I haven't run across the holder of the "Dumbest Person Alive" title yet. Oh, I'm sure they are out there, and if I DO cross their path, I'll be sure and get their name and pass it along to you.

As far as the movement to ban it, don't pull that "I have no idea what you're talking about" stuff with me.

Just like Obama with guns and ammo, the one thing they sparked is a tenfold increase in full size flags being flown on the backs of trucks everywhere, around here anyways.

If I'm not mistaken, you're one of those who keeps asking for proof of links between the BLM and the shootings of cops. If there's no "proof" it never happened. Kinda like the tree falling in the woods, does it make a sound?

So when I saw the first 2 posts in this thread I went on a google expedition.
There are several black men awaiting trial for either making threats to kill whites, inciting others to do so, or taking part in attacks themselves.
They just didn't make it to the front page of MSNBC.

I don't think those men represent every black person I know, and I don't think everyone in the BLM movement want to kill cops.
I want the cops to stop killing people without a good reason too. There's too much of that foolishness also.

But we all saw the carpetbaggers invade South Carolina again this summer and it does indeed bring back memories of an ugly time in America.
I'll be glad to give directions to all northbound interstates to them.


***********
BTW, when my sister-in-law from RI came down to visit with her black, lesbian girlfriend, I took my flag down from my workshop while they were here.
Southerners are raised to make their guests feel welcome and no matter what it represents to me, that doesn't mean that I get to make someone uncomfortable in my home or in public.
My previous statement you quoted is to let people know the difference.
If you ask, I'll bend over backwards to please. If you make demands, you best bring lawyers, guns and money.......


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> Well, you almost saw that one from me last nite, it would have been post #3.
> 
> Something along the lines of, "Those are just a bunch of thugs and should've had their butts whipped for doing that to a child's birthday party, I'd prolly whipped it for'em myself!"
> 
> ...


I wish I had seen your post earlier. It may have driven the conversation in a slightly different direction. First I don't consider you "white trash". I only know you from your postings here and though I disagre with many of them none would lead me to that conclusion. I once worked with the husband of the head of the local chapter of the NAACP. We shared more than a few meals and social events. He stood up for me when some decided a disciplinary act I took was racist. It wasn't.

Second, I don't care what flag you fly over your home. If I drive by and see it and know nothing else about you I may draw some conclusions about you. If I know you from elsewhere those conclusions may differ. Your heritage and what that flag means to you is personal. What that flag means to others and the heritage it has for them is equally personal and could be 180 degrees opposite. Both are valid views and not displaying the flag on government grounds leaves room for both those views. Driving around displaying flags and harassing a child's birthday party does show the dark side of the flag's heritage.

Third, I remember when this story happened. I didn't comment then. I waited until it reappeared after investigations had been done and the grand jury ruled. The interesting thing about casting bait on the waters is that if none rise the caster goes away. Not rising can prove something, it may prove nothing. But rising and commenting differently in this case than others proves much.

More facts will come out in the trial(s). A jury may ultimately decide. Now I may surprise you. I have an issue with what these people are charged with. Their actions were wrong but they are largely being charged based on their motivation and affiliation. I think its a poorly written law and probably innappropriate in this case.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

watcher said:


> Yet we are told we must condemn all Southerns based on the actions of a few. Does that sound at least slightly hypocritical to you?


Where did anyone here say that all southerners be condemned by the actions of these folks or any other. Isn't it also hypocritical of those who judge others this way to object if the same standard is applied to them?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Do they call themselves that, or did some reporters just parrot the term in their stories?


Actually I haven't been able to find any official website or information published by the group so I don't know how they self identify. The southern heritage group description comes from the Southern Poverty Law Center and other sources. That doesn't change that many have described displaying the flag as a part of of their heritage while missing the part of that heritage an act like this shows.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

farmrbrown said:


> MY flag?
> I haven't run across the holder of the "Dumbest Person Alive" title yet. Oh, I'm sure they are out there, and if I DO cross their path, I'll be sure and get their name and pass it along to you.
> 
> As far as the movement to ban it, don't pull that "I have no idea what you're talking about" stuff with me.
> ...


So who is (who are they?) trying to ban the confederate flag? You're still flying your personal flag, yes? Are other people flying their personal confederate flags on their property? The group in the OP were flying confederate flags on their trucks. 

Your post was verbose, but never indicated how the confederate flag was being banned. Do you consider it's removal from government buildings banning?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

This kind of incident is so rare that it is easy to see why it has gotten so much attention. I would say that probably alcohol had a lot to do with it too. I am just glad that nobody was hurt. When people like this bunch of troublemakers take to the streets to cause trouble, they should be arrested and it sounds like the police stopped it before it got worse.
No, they were not displaying their heritage. They were acting like red neck jerks. I don't think that they would have gone into one of the tough neighborhoods in Atlanta and tried that junk. They probably would not have come out alive.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

gapeach said:


> This kind of incident is so rare that it is easy to see why it has gotten so much attention. I would say that probably alcohol had a lot to do with it too. I am just glad that nobody was hurt. When people like this bunch of troublemakers take to the streets to cause trouble, they should be arrested and it sounds like the police stopped it before it got worse.
> No, they were not displaying their heritage. They were acting like red neck jerks. I don't think that they would have gone into one of the tough neighborhoods in Atlanta and tried that junk. They probably would not have come out alive.


Red neck jerk is part of the southern heritage. Maybe not yours but it is a part many know all too well. It could be the part of the heritage the birthday family reacted so strongly against.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> Actually I haven't been able to find any official website or information published by the group so I don't know how they self identify. The southern heritage group description comes from the Southern Poverty Law Center and other sources. That doesn't change that many have described displaying the flag as a part of of their heritage while missing the part of that heritage an act like this shows.


Yes. Many people wave flags for establishing identity. And it tends to accumulate meanings, a lot of them contradictory.

In this case, it was not just the flag but the running of it around town. Most likely as an in-your-face provocation. Even if interpreted as free speech, that does not give a person a right to put their face six inches from another and shout. Which is what it was likely meant to be.
Then one group with their specific emotional interpretation ran into another with a totally different emotional interpretation. And what would be expected to happen did happen.
Of course both sides defend their own emotional interpretations. Of course both sides refuse to acknowledge the other side has any right on their side. There are large stakes for both parties. 

But here, on this forum, removed from the heat of the disagreement, better ideas have a chance to mature. If there are not poster provocateurs rabble rousing. And ideas formed this way can carry over to the outside world like muscle memory. And act to defuse violence in disagreements even if the disagreements still exist. There is nothing like seeing that the other side has a point to reduce hating.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> Yet we are told we must condemn all Southerns based on the actions of a few.


Someone told you that?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

The Confederacy is part of my heritage. I had a lot of family members involved in the war including my great grandfather. I was invited to join the United Daughters of the Confederacy but never joined. They mostly keep the Confederate Cemeteries in good shape, attend memorial dedications and study history. On of my aunts who just passed away 2 weeks ago at the age of 92 was the leader of the Ga branch of UDC for a very long time.
I think people should be able to have the Confederate Flags on their own property but we all have to get along so it should be not a bone of contention or displayed that way to agitate people. However it is part of history. We should not be digging up bodies of people who served as soldiers on either side of the War Between the States. I think that theConfederate flag should still fly over Confederate Cemeteries.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

mmoetc said:


> Red neck jerk is part of the southern heritage. Maybe not yours but it is a part many know all too well. It could be the part of the heritage the birthday family reacted so strongly against.


What you see on tv depicting all Southerners as red necks is just not true.
I do resent that anyone would say that red neck jerk is part of the southern heritage. 

For every red neck there are thousands of educated, refined, friendly southern men and women. They don't even have to have a college education to have been raised that way. That stands for black or brown people as well.

When one of my sons was in college he joined Sons of Confederate Veterans mostly for the history that he could get. He does not belong now but he found the records and history very interesting. He wrote some papers on the subject of the Civil War.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> Where did anyone here say that all southerners be condemned by the actions of these folks or any other. Isn't it also hypocritical of those who judge others this way to object if the same standard is applied to them?


Look at the title of the post "It's all about heritage" which is followed by a story about how racist were showing the CSA battle flag. Not a good analogy but if I had posted "Its a peaceful religion" followed by a story about how a Muslims had burned a bunch of Christians to death would you not infer I was blaming all Islam for their actions?

The analogy doesn't hold because the group with the flag is not, AFAIK, have a organized group with a written set of laws/rules saying what they must follow to be a member.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> What you see on tv depicting all Southerners as red necks is just not true.
> I do resent that anyone would say that red neck jerk is part of the southern heritage.


I never thought that "all" southerners were like anything. I understand the diversity in people.

But when I saw a defiant George Wallace stand in front of a state university to prevent black students from registering I got the idea that something wasn't quite right in Alabama. It wasn't just Wallace either, since one person can be a jerk without the rest of the state, but he remained politically popular in the south after doing it.

When southerners as a whole supported a guy like George Wallace for president, what was I supposed to think?


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Nevada said:


> When southerners as a whole supported a guy like George Wallace for president, what was I supposed to think?


A little further.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Nevada said:


> I never thought that "all" southerners were like anything. I understand the diversity in people.
> 
> But when I saw a defiant George Wallace stand in front of a state university to prevent black students from registering I got the idea that something wasn't quite right in Alabama. It wasn't just Wallace either, since one person can be a jerk without the rest of the state, but he remained politically popular in the south after doing it.
> 
> When southerners as a whole supported a guy like George Wallace for president, what was I supposed to think?


George Wallace changed before his death. The Southern politicians or Southern Democrats were anti-integration. George Wallace was no different from any of the rest of them. My father was born in Birmingham, Alabama and his family still lives there. My father was a liberal and never a racist. You cannot stereotype people and think because George Wallace was racist at that time that he did not change along with many other politicians.

The Republican party has changed over the years as well as the Democrat Party. It has not all been for the good either.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> Red neck jerk is part of the southern heritage. Maybe not yours but it is a part many know all too well. It could be the part of the heritage the birthday family reacted so strongly against.


Red neck is southern heritage but being a jerk is a human heritage. 

If you have a flat the person most likely to stop and help you is going to be a ******* in a pickup truck. But they can be mean when upset.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> George Wallace changed before his death.


It's not about Wallace. It's about southerners supporting him after his public displays of racism. The thing is that a lot of those people are still alive. I find it unlikely that deep-rooted racism like that changes with the times. I believe those people are still racist today but are careful not to talk about it in mixed company.

If you need proof, the topic of this thread is a good example. A bunch of racist southerners got together and decided that it was OK to voice their racism out loud, as long as they did it in large numbers.

How many more southerners feel the same way? Maybe not "all" but I'll guess a lot...


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

It is too late now but I think the title is offensive.

It could be that this is a group of guys who just wanted to go around causing trouble and really have no history at all as to what the Confederate Flag really meant to history and heritage.
I'm ok with it not being flown on state house grounds and other public places. We don't even own anything but American flags but I think people should be allowed to have them if they want them.


Some in the African-American community have embraced the symbol. According to a 2014 poll reported on by The Washington Post, 27 percent of black South Carolinia residents supported flying the Confederate flag on state house grounds. 
http://www.nola.com/news/baton-rouge/index.ssf/2015/06/confederate_flag_baton_rouge.html


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Nevada said:


> It's not about Wallace. It's about southerners supporting him after his public displays of racism. The thing is that a lot of those people are still alive. I find it unlikely that deep-rooted racism like that changes with the times. I believe those people are still racist today but are careful not to talk about it in mixed company.
> 
> If you need proof, the topic of this thread is a good example. A bunch of racist southerners got together and decided that it was alright to voice their racism out loud, as long as they did it in large numbers.
> 
> How many more southerners feel the same way? Maybe not "all" but I'll guess a lot...


You can twist words and make them say what ever you want. As well as I can remember, George Wallace died completely repenting his action as a segregationist. Nevada, I think you have something against Southerners and have felt it ever since I have been here.

You are talking about something from the 60's. That has been 50 years. The Stand in the Schoolhouse Door took place at Foster Auditorium at the University of Alabama on June 11, 1963.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

watcher said:


> Red neck is southern heritage but being a jerk is a human heritage.
> 
> If you have a flat the person most likely to stop and help you is going to be a ******* in a pickup truck. But they can be mean when upset.


I have seen some northern red necks in my life too. When you move around a lot, you learn a lot of things about people no matter where they are from. they can be ******** or just plain uncouth.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Nevada said:


> It's not about Wallace. It's about southerners supporting him after his public displays of racism. The thing is that a lot of those people are still alive. I find it unlikely that deep-rooted racism like that changes with the times. I believe those people are still racist today but are careful not to talk about it in mixed company.
> 
> If you need proof, the topic of this thread is a good example. A bunch of racist southerners got together and decided that it was alright to voice their racism out loud, as long as they did it in large numbers.
> 
> How many more southerners feel the same way? Maybe not "all" but I'll guess a lot...


And there you are. Ignoring centuries of writers, jurists, doctors, etc but focus on a bunch of people riding trucks waving flags.

Actually you should spend some time reading about lynchings. Although the majority were of black men, a lot of them were done by immigrants in the north east and midwest. New York City had some of the worst. I discovered this when my father was given a replicate New York Times newspaper as a birthday gift. On his birthday, the front page was covered in s tories about lynchings of black people in NYC.
And the west has their share only less frequently black people just because of the demographics. 

It is always better to assume you are not better than any other group before saying so. Tends to be very conveniently selective.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

gapeach said:


> I have seen some northern red necks in my life too. When you move around a lot, you learn a lot of things about people no matter where they are from. they can be ******** or just plain uncouth.


The county where I live tends to be chock full of PWTs amurderin' and ashootin' and afighten' each other. Tend to be pot smokers, meth heads and their assorted suppliers.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

where I want to said:


> The county where I live tends to be chock full of PWTs amurderin' and ashootin' and afighten' each other. Tend to be pot smokers, meth heads and their assorted suppliers.


It is like that in this county too and when the cops make a big sweeping arrest on meth labs, their pictures are put in the paper. There is usually a big assortment of different economic backgrounds, from affluent families to lower income, white black and hispanic all represented.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Charlie says it quite well.

[YOUTUBE]8Au6qBLgk1A[/YOUTUBE]


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I love Charlie Daniels! He doesn't give a flying flip what anybody thinks!
Gotta love Kid Rock too!
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXczn5HH2Zw[/ame]


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> I have seen some northern red necks in my life too. When you move around a lot, you learn a lot of things about people no matter where they are from. they can be ******** or just plain uncouth.


Sure, we had ******** up north, and we also had racists. I suspect they haven't change much over the years either.

Northerners are racist for different reasons. After slaves were freed many migrated to industrialized areas of the north. They were able-bodied plantation workers who were accustomed to hard work, and northern factory workers knew it. They saw blacks migrating north as competition for the precious few jobs that existed. The fear of that competition manifested itself as racism.

I saw that racism while growing up in Ohio. It was different from racism in the south, since it was more subtle. Mostly the racism manifested itself as whites telling tasteless jokes in the company of other whites. But some racism existed in hiring practices, college acceptance, and even housing. The races were polarized in some areas, where blacks segregated themselves because they preferred to be with other blacks, and whites did the same. Of course, some Jim Crow laws existed in the north.

After the civil rights act the icon issue became busing, where schools were integrated by transporting students across town. It was poorly applied policy, and there was a backlash across the country, including the north. Things didn't settle down for about 5 years, just in time for the counterculture movement.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Nevada said:


> Sure, we had ******** up north, and we also had racists. I suspect they haven't change much over the years either.
> 
> Northerners are racist for different reasons. After slaves were freed many migrated to industrialized areas of the north. They were able-bodied plantation workers who were accustomed to hard work, and northern factory workers knew it. They saw blacks migrating north as competition for the precious few jobs that existed. The fear of that competition manifested itself as racism.
> 
> ...


Since you did not grow up in the south, you don't have a clue how it was growing up in the south so you can not speak for the south or anyone who grew up in the south.

:boring:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> Since you did not grow up in the south, you don't have a clue how it was growing up in the south so you can not speak for the south or anyone who grew up in the south.
> 
> :boring:


I don't know what it's like to grow up in the south, but I know what the south was like. I traveled through the deep south in 1958 to visit family in Florida. Traveling in 1958 wasn't like traveling today. There were no interstate highways, so we got the full flavor of the south riding on those 2-lane highways.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Nevada said:


> I don't know what it's like to grow up in the south, but I know what the south was like. I traveled through the deep south in 1958 to visit family in Florida. Traveling in 1958 wasn't like traveling today. There were no interstate highways, so we got the full flavor of the south riding on those 2-lane highways.


And if that doesn't leave gapeach speechless, there is nothing that will.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Just looks like white trash being white trash to me.  I have no problem with the Confederate flag or people flying it. But don't go flaunting it in people's faces and ruining people's birthday parties. They were looking to pick a fight. They got in at least one fight that day.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

kasilofhome said:


> Art is in the mind of the viewer.... see a flag and get upset..... what in you causes that uncontrolled anger.. ?
> 
> Verse other feelings.. time to start owning dark secrets. Cause the first step is owning and seeing ..before the healing..... but in America you have every right to stay bitter ....even if it zaps ever happy moment from reach.


Can you post that in one of the Muslim threads? Or one of the BLM threads. I think there are a few members who could benefit from your wisdom there.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

where I want to said:


> And if that doesn't leave gapeach speechless, there is nothing that will.


Racism in the south was obvious in 1958, and there was nothing like it up north. It's an experience I'm not sorry I had. I can say I saw it with my own two eyes. Nobody can tell me that it was a myth or just a stereotype from the past.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-7eNRB2_0Q[/ame]


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> I have seen some northern red necks in my life too. When you move around a lot, you learn a lot of things about people no matter where they are from. they can be ******** or just plain uncouth.


Personally I seperate ******** and white trash. ******** are generally hard working decent people. There is nothing wrong with being poor and most poor and lower middle class are perfectly respectable people. White trash are the ones who are criminals and make no effort in life at all.They go around looking to pick fights because they don't have anything better to do with themselves. 

I was born and raised in Ohio and there are definitely plenty of both up there. It's not a Southern thing at all.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Patchouli said:


> I was born and raised in Ohio and there are definitely plenty of both up there.


Ohio has also has a strong contingent of people who believed in civil rights for all. They are the descendants of participants in the underground railroad, who helped slaves escape to Canada before the civil war. It was their influence that made life tolerable for blacks in Ohio.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Racism in the south was obvious in 1958, and there was nothing like it up north. It's an experience I'm not sorry I had. I can say I saw it with my own two eyes. Nobody can tell me that it was a myth or just a stereotype from the past.


If you didn't see it up north it was because you didn't look and it was not as strongly government supported. There were plenty of places up north which didn't allow blacks, Chinese, Irish and/or Jews.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> If you didn't see it up north it was because you didn't look and it was not as strongly government supported. There were plenty of places up north which didn't allow blacks, Chinese, Irish and/or Jews.


Other than the tasteless jokes about blacks, there were no outward signs of racism. There was nothing you could take a picture of that demonstrated racism.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Nevada said:


> Other than the tasteless jokes about blacks, there were no outward signs of racism. There was nothing you could take a picture of that demonstrated racism.


In Ohio? There was plenty of overt racism. Everything from white flight in the cities to not hiring blacks, racist language etc. If anything down here I think blacks and whites are more respectful to each other. But maybe that is just a southern thing in general.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Patchouli said:


> In Ohio? There was plenty of overt racism. Everything from white flight in the cities to not hiring blacks, racist language etc.


Oh sure, all that and more. But nothing you could take a picture of.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Nevada said:


> Oh sure, all that and more. But nothing you could take a picture of.


It's gone downhill since you and I lived there. I was shocked when I saw the video of the people in Ohio saying all the ugly racist things about Obama way back in 2008. I couldn't believe thee were people saying that sort of stuff. My husband who lived in a rural area in southern OH on a farm when he was a kid wasn't surprised at all. 

I wouldn't be shocked today to see pics of someone up there driving around with a Confederate flag in the back of their truck.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Patchouli said:


> It's gone downhill since you and I lived there. I was shocked when I saw the video of the people in Ohio saying all the ugly racist things about Obama way back in 2008. I couldn't believe thee were people saying that sort of stuff. My husband who lived in a rural area in southern OH on a farm when he was a kid wasn't surprised at all.
> 
> I wouldn't be shocked today to see pics of someone up there driving around with a Confederate flag in the back of their truck.


I suppose it's the people you happened to be around. I remember the tasteless jokes I heard when MLK was shot & killed. If I repeated one of those jokes I would be banned from HT for sure. There was no question that they were celebrating his death.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Other than the tasteless jokes about blacks, there were no outward signs of racism. There was nothing you could take a picture of that demonstrated racism.


Does the fact that a place doesn't have a sign saying "No blacks or Irish allowed" make it any less racist? 

Like it or not humans are bigoted. They prefer to be around people like them, in any big social event you will see this in action. At a company picnic the people from the shipping department will gather in one area while people from accounting will gather in another. In a school cafetiere you will see blacks in one area and whites in another. At a block party you will find sports fans in one place and tech geeks in another. 

When you force different people together you wind up with friction between the groups. This is why we are having the problems we are having now. Want to make things better? Follow the teachings of King and make the government do the same.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

watcher said:


> Does the fact that a place doesn't have a sign saying "No blacks or Irish allowed" make it any less racist?


I suppose not, but that wasn't my point. The suggestion was that I couldn't tell you about the south from just driving through. My point was that there were overt signs of racism that contrasted with the north. There was no mistaking what "Whites Only" meant.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Nevada said:


> I don't know what it's like to grow up in the south, but I know what the south was like. I traveled through the deep south in 1958 to visit family in Florida. Traveling in 1958 wasn't like traveling today. There were no interstate highways, so we got the full flavor of the south riding on those 2-lane highways.


Oh, brother! I had to go out to the grocery store and the library and just got back. I am glad I did not read this before I left. I would have really been so teed off. You already told me several years ago that you rode through Georgia once and did not like what you saw. How naive are you, really? I have been on 2 lane roads many times while traveling and so I guess I could judge those people in those states by what we saw on the road and at the service stations we stopped at.:happy2: We went on a trip west and back. When we were in Montana we could not get to a gas pump when we stopped to get gas because the cowboys and ranchers were having a coffee break inside. I went in and asked them to please move some cars so that we could get some gas. They all jumped up and said that they were sorry and moved their trucks. I guess I could think that they were inconsiderate but we were probably the only customers that they had that morning.
I have known many people in my life but you take the cake. Lotsa people move South from the North and I have never ever known one who wants to go back. A neighbor of ours from NY State and Michigan told us once that we had never seen race problems til we saw Detroit's at the police stations. The white cops and black cops would not even eat lunch together. This neighbor was going to law school in Detroit while working for the Police Dept. 
You just keep on thinking that people in the south are racist and bigots. We don't care a bit. I know I don't. :nanner:


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Nevada said:


> Racism in the south was obvious in 1958, and there was nothing like it up north. It's an experience I'm not sorry I had. I can say I saw it with my own two eyes. Nobody can tell me that it was a myth or just a stereotype from the past.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-7eNRB2_0Q


You saw with your own eyes what you just posted???

If I wanted to I could tell you some things too that happened in black neighborhoods. White people were not welcome there then either but that was over 50 years ago. We have all moved on. It appears to me that the South has a lot more success with getting along peacefully and being good neighbors to each other than many parts of the north. NYC, Cleveland, Chicago, Baltimore......many more places in the North have more problems than we do in the south. You may hear of an isolated incident like this one in Douglasville, Ga but they are not ordinary. By the way, we have friends who lived in Douglasville and we visited them. That is the prettiest, nicest, quiet little small town. It is just lovely with so many old houses. It is too bad that some people want to just cause trouble.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Nevada said:


> I suppose not, but that wasn't my point. The suggestion was that I couldn't tell you about the south from just driving through. My point was that there were overt signs of racism that contrasted with the north. There was no mistaking what "Whites Only" meant.


What years did you ride though the south?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> What years did you ride though the south?


That would have been 1958.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> White people were not welcome there then either but that was over 50 years ago. We have all moved on.


The trouble is that we haven't moved on, and some black neighborhoods are still dangerous for whites. Try moving the south-central Los Angeles without being black. Try moving to East L.A. without being Hispanic.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

That is the year I graduated high school in SC. We were very close to integrating the schools at that time. It happened a few years later. 

The thing that you and many others don't understand is that the black people did not want to give up their schools. They did not want to give up their side of town and their movie theatres, restaurants, etc. 

It's dumb really now at this point to even go over that stuff. We sure don't need people from the north talking about how bigoted and racist we have been. There are classes of people within every race and culture.
There are black people that I would associate with and some I would not. Same with white people or whoever. The black people I know tell me the same thing that there are classes of black people that they will have nothing to do with.

No use talking to you. You are set in the way you think.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

http://www.units.miamioh.edu/eduleadership/faculty/kate/oxford/deseg.html

An interesting history of desegregation in Ohio in the 1880s.

http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/w/Fugitives_from_Slavery

"Not all fugitives from slavery chose to remain in Ohio. Although slavery was illegal in Ohio, a number of people still opposed the ending of slavery. Many of these people also were opposed to the Underground Railroad. Some people attacked conductors on the Underground Railroad or returned fugitives from slavery to their owners in hopes of collecting rewards. To truly win their freedom, fugitives from slavery had to flee all of the way to Canada."





Nevada said:


> Ohio has also has a strong contingent of people who believed in civil rights for all. They are the descendants of participants in the underground railroad, who helped slaves escape to Canada before the civil war. It was their influence that made life tolerable for blacks in Ohio.


You drove through the south as a- what- 8 year old almost 60 years ago? And that is your authority for what is happening today? 

In truth there is a lot of smugness in the north about their non-slavery past. However it was more a factor of two things- that northern weather was not conducive to plantation slavery and 2) there were large numbers of immigrants who could be worked for slave wages when needed and cast off when not. Somehow I doubt a boundary map magically made people more principled on one side and not on the other. Although the heavier presence of Quakers and Methodists from early days might have made a difference.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

where I want to said:


> You drove through the south as a- what- 8 year old almost 60 years ago? And that is your authority for what is happening today?


Later I lived in Florida, and most of my family lives in Florida now. But things were very different by then. I was only telling you want I saw in 1958.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> The thing that you and many others don't understand is that the black people did not want to give up their schools. They did not want to give up their side of town and their movie theatres, restaurants, etc.


The politics of busing were complicated and divisive, but that was the only issue conservatives could hang their hat on. It was effective. But let's not kid ourselves, the busing issue was how conservatives resisted the civil rights act. That's what the busing issue was really about.

And yes, Ohioans were vocal about busing also.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Nevada said:


> The trouble is that we haven't moved on, and some black neighborhoods are still dangerous for whites. Try moving the south-central Los Angeles without being black. Try moving to East L.A. without being Hispanic.



These other places I don't have any idea about. I only know about the south, having lived in SC, Ga, NC and in Ala during my summers as a teenager. We have moved on in the south. Our neighborhoods are integrated and have been since the 60's but that does not mean that there are not ghettos too. However, some whites live in those ghettos too.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Nevada said:


> The politics of busing were complicated and divisive, but that was the only issue conservatives could hang their hat on. It was effective. But let's not kid ourselves, the busing issue was how conservatives resisted the civil rights act. That's what the busing issue was really about.
> 
> And yes, Ohioans were vocal about busing also.


You should be saying Conservative Democrats. They were the people fighting integration.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> These other places I don't have any idea about. I only know about the south, having lived in SC, Ga, NC and in Ala during my summers as a teenager. We have moved on in the south. Our neighborhoods are integrated and have been since the 60's but that does not mean that there are not ghettos too. However, some whites live in those ghettos too.


Most large cities in this country have ethnic neighborhoods. That's one thing that I like about Las Vegas -- no ethnic neighborhoods. Of course some neighborhoods are more affluent than others, and some neighborhoods have more drug & crime problems than others, but ethnic background isn't really an issue. Anyone can live anywhere, if they can afford it.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Most large cities in this country have ethnic neighborhoods. That's one thing that I like about Las Vegas -- no ethnic neighborhoods. Of course some neighborhoods are more affluent than others, and some neighborhoods have more drug & crime problems than others, but ethnic background isn't really an issue. Anyone can live anywhere, if they can afford it.


You should see Eureka Ca for mixed neighborhoods. Not only are there no ethnic neighborhoods (not always for good reasons) but there is little economic segregation either. A shack can be in the same area as a mansion. In fact right next to it.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Well, my problem with you is that you generalize and since you don't live in the south you are not qualified to say how we live in 2015 and since you only rode through back in 1958, that is not a qualification either. 
I think what you are saying is that you saw whites only bathrooms. It might just be too that the south was more open about segregation.

It is not like that anymore.:umno:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

where I want to said:


> You should see Eureka Ca for mixed neighborhoods. Not only are there no ethnic neighborhoods (not always for good reasons) but there is little economic segergation either. A shack can be in the same area as a mansion. In fact right next to it.


I've been there. All I can remember is the creamed crab on toast, but I don't recall the restaurant name.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

where I want to said:


> You should see Eureka Ca for mixed neighborhoods. Not only are there no ethnic neighborhoods (not always for good reasons) but there is little economic segergation either. A shack can be in the same area as a mansion. In fact right next to it.


No restrictions. Unfortunately it is like that here too on the islands around Savannah. Now the property is worth 100 times more than than the shacks on the lots. Everything is grandfathered so no chance of the shacks going.

We lived here for a year in 1975. We could have bought a waterfont lot and house for $100,000 and I would not agree to do it because I was afraid of my 3 kids living on the water. Now those same places are in the millions.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Nevada you might be interested in this map of Sundown towns across the country. You may be pretty shocked by Ohio's list. 

http://sundown.afro.illinois.edu/content.php?file=sundowntowns-whitemap.html


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

My county, Chatham, Georgia is not on that list.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Patchouli said:


> Nevada you might be interested in this map of Sundown towns across the country. You may be pretty shocked by Ohio's list.
> 
> http://sundown.afro.illinois.edu/content.php?file=sundowntowns-whitemap.html


Doesn't surprise me in the least. There's a lot of racism in Ohio.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Nevada, if you took the trip down to FL thru GA, in 1958 you would have been on Hwy 301. You went through Ludowici, the biggest speedtrap anywhere. You could have seen just about anything on that road. You made a decision that Georgia was like nothing you had ever seen in Ohio on what you saw that one trip.

and it did not come from that you tube that you posted.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

gapeach said:


> Nevada, if you took the trip down to FL thru GA, in 1958 you would have been on Hwy 301. You went through Ludowici, the biggest speedtrap anywhere. You could have seen just about anything on that road. You made a decision that Georgia was like nothing you had ever seen in Ohio on what you saw that one trip.
> 
> and it did not come from that you tube that you posted.


The strangest thing I saw was north of Georgia, probably in Kentucky or Tennessee. We saw families pulling a child's wagon, picking up pieces of coal they found on the side of the highway. I recall that we didn't understand it at all. We didn't understand where the coal came from, or even why they wanted it.

My dad explained to us. The coal got there by falling from trucks, usually as they went around curves. Of course they wanted it to heat their homes. Was saw a number of homes along the way that were obviously DIY jobs, even having little more than tar paper for siding. Those people were poor on a level that we had never seen before.

I'm not sure that younger people understand what a trip like that was like in 1958. Cars weren't nearly as comfortable as they are today, and traveling was a lot more exhausting. With no freeways the 2-lane roads went through every little town, and we stopped for lights & stop signs in virtually every town. It was nothing like traveling today.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nevada said:


> I never thought that "all" southerners were like anything. I understand the diversity in people.
> 
> But when I saw a defiant George Wallace stand in front of a state university to prevent black students from registering I got the idea that something wasn't quite right in Alabama. It wasn't just Wallace either, since one person can be a jerk without the rest of the state, but he remained politically popular in the south after doing it.
> 
> When southerners as a whole supported a guy like George Wallace for president, what was I supposed to think?


All you had to do was ask........




Nevada said:


> It's not about Wallace. It's about southerners supporting him after his public displays of racism. The thing is that a lot of those people are still alive. I find it unlikely that deep-rooted racism like that changes with the times. I believe those people are still racist today but are careful not to talk about it in mixed company.
> 
> If you need proof, the topic of this thread is a good example. A bunch of racist southerners got together and decided that it was OK to voice their racism out loud, as long as they did it in large numbers.
> 
> How many more southerners feel the same way? Maybe not "all" but I'll guess a lot...



I know I've told you this before. I don't think you've forgotten so I can only surmise you just don't believe it.

Yes, Wallace was widely popular in the South. No doubt in some cases for supporting segregation. Many more admired his stance on defending the common working class and definitely for thumbing his nose at the threat of an invasion by federal troops. 
You might be surprised that this is still a very tender issue in the South, but I'm not. :happy2:

I've also reminded you that in his last term as Governor, he carried 90% (I'll verify that in a moment) of the black vote. You read that correctly, BTW.

Not as black and white an issue as it appears, is it.
Pun intended.



Nevada said:


> Northerners are racist for different reasons. After slaves were freed many migrated to industrialized areas of the north. They were able-bodied plantation workers who were accustomed to hard work, and northern factory workers knew it. They saw blacks migrating north as competition for the precious few jobs that existed. The fear of that competition manifested itself as racism.


I don't know what they taught you in school about the post-Reconstruction period, but what you posted is the exact same reason blacks were treated poorly in the South as well.
When you're near the bottom rung of the economic ladder, the view is about the same for everybody.
No surprise there, either.




Nevada said:


> Racism in the south was obvious in 1958, and there was nothing like it up north. It's an experience I'm not sorry I had. I can say I saw it with my own two eyes. Nobody can tell me that it was a myth or just a stereotype from the past.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-7eNRB2_0Q


I wouldn't tell you it wasn't either. I saw white and black water fountains in the 70's in Florida. It was in the boarded up train station downtown, but you could peek thru the windows.
I saw the sundown signs in the mid 90's still up in Ocoee, right on the door at the convenience store in the center of town.
The older black gentleman that re-plumbed our house a few years ago asked if it was "all right" for him to go into town and get some lunch.
I knew what he meant and assured him everything was fine, but I felt bad for him, that he even thought to ask.
After all this IS the 21st century, right?



Nevada said:


> Oh sure, all that and more. But nothing you could take a picture of.



I think that's what's known as looking at the past with rose colored glasses.
They DO have pictures.

And this as well, Jim Crow laws by state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jim_Crow_law_examples_by_state


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> I wish I had seen your post earlier. It may have driven the conversation in a slightly different direction. First I don't consider you "white trash". I only know you from your postings here and though I disagre with many of them none would lead me to that conclusion. I once worked with the husband of the head of the local chapter of the NAACP. We shared more than a few meals and social events. He stood up for me when some decided a disciplinary act I took was racist. It wasn't.
> 
> Second, I don't care what flag you fly over your home. If I drive by and see it and know nothing else about you I may draw some conclusions about you. If I know you from elsewhere those conclusions may differ. Your heritage and what that flag means to you is personal. What that flag means to others and the heritage it has for them is equally personal and could be 180 degrees opposite. Both are valid views and not displaying the flag on government grounds leaves room for both those views. Driving around displaying flags and harassing a child's birthday party does show the dark side of the flag's heritage.
> 
> Third, I remember when this story happened. I didn't comment then. I waited until it reappeared after investigations had been done and the grand jury ruled. The interesting thing about casting bait on the waters is that if none rise the caster goes away. Not rising can prove something, it may prove nothing. But rising and commenting differently in this case than others proves much.


:cowboy:








mmoetc said:


> *More facts will come out in the trial(s). A jury may ultimately decide. Now I may surprise you. I have an issue with what these people are charged with. Their actions were wrong but they are largely being charged based on their motivation and affiliation. I think its a poorly written law and probably innappropriate in this case.*



You might be surprised to hear, if the facts reveal that the accused DID what was written and the intended victims merely showed reasonable defense and restraint ( A lot of latitude there, NO ONE should have their family threatened) I have no problem with prosecuting them as charged.
That kind of crud shouldn't be tolerated from anyone.
The violence from the past was bloody and real. There are laws still on the books about cross burning, etc. for good reason.
A little wood burning on your lawn isn't that dangerous, it's the threat behind it that was whole point. Families WERE shot, lynched, burned out and ran out of town at times and for nothing more than living in a different colored skin.
That's wrong, period.
Same goes for other offenses targeting other minorities.
Being proud of your "rebel" heritage doesn't allow people to seek out others to hurt. That ISN'T the Southern tradition, in fact just the opposite.
We were raised to be respectful, defend the weak and only get riled if someone invaded your home with intent to harm.
Otherwise, mind your manners and don't bring shame on your family.








Irish Pixie said:


> So who is (who are they?) trying to ban the confederate flag? You're still flying your personal flag, yes? Are other people flying their personal confederate flags on their property? The group in the OP were flying confederate flags on their trucks.
> 
> Your post was verbose, but never indicated how the confederate flag was being banned. Do you consider it's removal from government buildings banning?




No, I didn't. I'm reluctant to do so now.
I don't think you're that naive about current events, but I concede that there are times when I haven't been aware of things so I'll cautiously give you the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully, I won't regret that.........

I do consider removal from gov't property, not just buildings as a ban, but acknowledge the right to do so, if the people so desire. that is their right.

This past July 4th holiday in Daytona, NASCAR "asked" that the flags be taken down at the track. This was to the fans, who bought their lots on the infield as they have for years. I wasn't there so I don't know how this was handled but it was well publicized that it happened. Most complied and I don't think any were kicked out, we'll see as time goes on.
As for other groups - legislative, social media, commercial enterprises, and private and public lands.......it's going on as we speak.
Look into the the controversy at Stone Mountain Georgia right now.

I'll just post a google search link for other examples.


http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=confederate+flag+bans&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/acl...igh-schools-ban-on-confederate-flags/35826266

ACLU is defending the wearing of the Confederate Flag:



> _The ACLU of Virginia has been concerned to read about Christiansburg High School's prohibition on confederate flag emblems in the parking lot and on student clothing. We understand that the school has a legal and ethical obligation to protect students from racial discrimination and harassment, while at the same time respecting free speech rights. Although the confederate flag is unquestionably associated with racism, slavery, and violence against African-Americans, it is also a form of speech protected by the First Amendment._
> _As you know, public school students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."_


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

That is why I like school uniforms. They look nice and solve a lot of problems.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

More banning of the flag.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/10/1...cense-plates-virginia-recall/?intcmp=trending


Maryland got the okay from a judge to recall Confederate flag special license plates, joining Virginia -- where a similar recall effort has encountered near universal defiance from owners of the tags to return them.

Both states acted to recall the plates after a self-proclaimed white supremacist killed nine black South Carolina churchgoers in June. The gunman had taken photos of himself with guns and the Confederate flag and posted them online before the shooting.

A federal judge issued an order Thursday allowing Maryland to recall tags featuring the Confederate battle flag after Nov. 17, Reuters reported.

&#8220;I look forward to the day when these plates are no longer on the road,&#8221; Maryland Attorney General Brian Frost said in a statement. &#8220;This flag is a painful symbol that divides us, conjuring images of hate and subjugation. It has no place in any contemporary government use.&#8221;

A judge ruled in 1997 that Maryland&#8217;s Sons of Confederate Veterans license plates were protected free speech and enjoined the state from recalling them, Reuters reported.

But in June, the U.S. Supreme Court said Confederate flag license plates constituted government speech that could be subjected to regulation.

Virginia announced it would recall the plates in August and as of Oct. 4 it is illegal to drive with Confederate license plates. Violators face prosecution on a misdemeanor if stopped.
But the recall has encountered little cooperation, according to WAVY-TV.

Of 1,600 Sons of Confederate Veterans license plates on the road, only 187 have been returned, the station reported Thursday.


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## Targe (Sep 14, 2014)

Patchouli said:


> http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/acl...igh-schools-ban-on-confederate-flags/35826266
> 
> ACLU is defending the wearing of the Confederate Flag:



Yeah with _"Although the confederate flag is unquestionably associated with racism, slavery, and violence against African-Americans..."_

that's like someone saying _"And that dress really flatters you; it covers up your flab so well!" _


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> http://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/32371447-story?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
> 
> Confederate flag supporters indicted for disrupting black child's birthday party.


Hey, Confederate Lives Matter


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

watcher said:


> Look at the title of the post "It's all about heritage" which is followed by a story about how racist were showing the CSA battle flag. Not a good analogy but if I had posted "Its a peaceful religion" followed by a story about how a Muslims had burned a bunch of Christians to death would you not infer I was blaming all Islam for their actions?
> 
> The analogy doesn't hold because the group with the flag is not, AFAIK, have a organized group with a written set of laws/rules saying what they must follow to be a member.


Perhaps I should have put quotes around the title to indicate that the sentiment of many is that displaying the flag is "all about heritage". Or maybe I should have ended it with a question mark to indicate my skepticism. I'll try to be more precise in the future.

My comments aren't directed at an individual or group though both here and elsewhere some claim the flag as part of their heritage. My comments are directed at the heritage of the flag itself. A heritage that includes both the good and bad, honorable and dishonorable done under it. A heritage that many who's people suffered under it have the right to object to.

I'll address my agreement with you about the law in my next post.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> :cowboy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll leave heritage aside for now and address why I object to the specific law used in this case. There are already a myriad of laws on the books to address behavior of this sort. A new, vaguely worded law describing rather loose affiliations and actions based on them as being illegal and indictable for everyone in that group seems overreaching and unneccessary to me. It also seems rife for the potential for abuse depending on whose political ox is being gored. I also object to the looseness with which terms like "terroristic threats and actions" get tossed around these days. Terrorism is a highly charged word and the actions depicted in this case don't, to me, rise to that level. By continually expanded the definition of terrorism we run the danger of losing its true meaning and applying it to areas it shouldn't be and thus reducing the import of what terrorism really is. The conservative ideal of more laws not neccesssarily meaning better laws seems apropo here.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> Perhaps I should have put quotes around the title to indicate that the sentiment of many is that displaying the flag is "all about heritage". Or maybe I should have ended it with a question mark to indicate my skepticism. I'll try to be more precise in the future.
> 
> My comments aren't directed at an individual or group though both here and elsewhere some ckaim the flag as part of their heritage. My comments are directed at the heritage of the flag itself. A heritage that includes both the good and bad, honorable and dishonorable done under it. A heritage that many who's people suffered under it have the right to object to.
> 
> I'll address my agreement with you about the law in my next post.


If you look at the past seeing only the bad and think that's a reason to demand a flag be not flown or even banned you might want to demand the flag of the United States of America be banned. After all it was the flag that was flying for the 100+ years when slavery was the law of the land. The flag that was flying when Indians were slaughtered and their culture almost wiped from the face of the earth. The flag that was flying when war criminals were, in effect, pardoned and even hired to continue their work. The flag that was flying black men with syphilis were knowingly left untreated. All and all I'd have to say that there is a lot more darkness hidden behind the stars and stripes than the CSA battle flag.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

watcher said:


> If you look at the past seeing only the bad and think that's a reason to demand a flag be not flown or even banned you might want to demand the flag of the United States of America be banned. After all it was the flag that was flying for the 100+ years when slavery was the law of the land. The flag that was flying when Indians were slaughtered and their culture almost wiped from the face of the earth. The flag that was flying when war criminals were, in effect, pardoned and even hired to continue their work. The flag that was flying black men with syphilis were knowingly left untreated. All and all I'd have to say that there is a lot more darkness hidden behind the stars and stripes than the CSA battle flag.


I have no problem with anyone flying or displaying any flag they wish on their private property. I don't even have a problem with someone wearing an image of any flag they wish or carrying any flag they wish on public grounds. I do have issue with any government entity displaying any flag not representative of that government. Federal flags, state flags, departmental flags fine. Anything else, to what purpose?

Remembering our heritage, all of it is important. I'll remember this post next time I'm taken to task here for pointing out some of the things done under our flag in the past.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

farmrbrown said:


> More banning of the flag.
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/10/1...cense-plates-virginia-recall/?intcmp=trending
> 
> ...


My son still has his and hangs it on the wall in his workshop.
If someone continued to display that license plate on their car today, they might just get their tires slashed or worse.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

gapeach said:


> My son still has his and hangs it on the wall in his workshop.
> If someone continued to display that license plate on their car today, they might just get their tires slashed or worse.


And whoever did so should be prosecuted for that act.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Agreed but it would certainly draw attention. Sometimes it is better just not to put yourself in that position. Really, he only drove around with it on his car for a couple of yrs when he was in college. It is an attractive license plate cover and looks like pewter. It is best left where it is along with his Young Republicans stickers.


*Confederate License Plates Soon To Be History On Md. Highways
http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/10/16/maryland-likely-to-recall-confederate-license-plates/
* 
_October 16, 2015 11:00 PM_ By Mike Hellgren

It is probably going to be this way all over.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

gapeach said:


> Agreed but it would certainly draw attention. Sometimes it is better just not to put yourself in that position. Really, he only drove around with it on his car for a couple of yrs when he was in college. It is an attractive license plate cover and looks like pewter. It is best left where it is along with his Young Republicans stickers.
> 
> 
> *Confederate License Plates Soon To Be History On Md. Highways
> ...


So what. Wish to display the flag on your car go buy a decal. Just don't ask the government to provide one for you.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Guess those that are of the green eyed jealous type who are envious of others wealth, asset and abilities now seek those who have pride in the historical histories of their families and communities. We must all become drones but never forget blm first.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

That era was way before any of us lived. My great-grandfather was 26 years old when the Civil War ended and he lost 2 brothers in the war. None of us had anything to do with the war and none of us have owned any slaves. However, it is history and while it might be more relevant to us who had ancestors in that war, it all happened and nothing can change that.


*Capt. James Ambler GRIFFIN* - Unit Served in: 14 Apr 1861, Second Sergeant, Company H, Fourth Infantry, Regiment; November 1862 elected Second Lieutenant, Company B, Thirty Seventh Virginia Cavalry, becoming Commander in 1863 to end of war. (Birth: 25 May 1839, Pickens Co., SC - Death: 23 May 1926, Columbia, SC) Buried: Haygood Cemetery, Pickens County, SC


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

If the powers that be wipe ( with a cloth?). The history of the south future generations will not buy the blm and former maltreatment of them just like today folks are ignorant about the white slaves due to changing history... darn it some papers could not be wiped.... save books now.. book lives matter.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> So what. Wish to display the flag on your car go buy a decal. Just don't ask the government to provide one for you.


If the government provides the ability to buy a tag with the emblem for one legal group it should provide the ability to buy one with any one. To do otherwise means the government is not treating all citizens equally.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Patchouli said:


> Nevada you might be interested in this map of Sundown towns across the country. You may be pretty shocked by Ohio's list.
> 
> http://sundown.afro.illinois.edu/content.php?file=sundowntowns-whitemap.html


Wow, unless I miss-counted, Texas had 106 sundown cities and Ohio had 136. 


How's that for per capita racism? So much for our southern hatred "heritage". 

Nevada. You mentioned the underground railroad but you do realize that the railroad had to start in the south right? How else would the slaves get to the north? There is no way they could walk across three or four states scot free without help. "conductors" in the south were often hung for their compassion so it was no minor thing being a part of it.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

watcher said:


> If the government provides the ability to buy a tag with the emblem for one legal group it should provide the ability to buy one with any one. To do otherwise means the government is not treating all citizens equally.


On one level I agree. You're free to challenge all the other special license plates and have them halted as government speech, just as this one was, and I won't argue against it. The ruling is fairly sound. There's a difference between government allowing access to public grounds for different displays and government providing the means of display. They can open an area of a park to crosses, six pointed stars or crescent moons but they cannot provide the displays themselves.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

mreynolds said:


> Wow, unless I miss-counted, Texas had 106 sundown cities and Ohio had 136.
> 
> 
> How's that for per capita racism? So much for our southern hatred "heritage".
> ...


I never said the heritage of racism and oppression was strictly southern nor tied to the flag. The flag is just one reminder of it. Does showing that it existed elesewhere somehow excuse it happening at all?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

mmoetc said:


> I never said the heritage of racism and oppression was strictly southern nor tied to the flag. The flag is just one reminder of it. Does showing that it existed elesewhere somehow excuse it happening at all?


No, you never did that I saw and I didn't mean to Imply that you did mean that. But since the flag has been under scrutiny a lot of others have implied that both here and in the media. All of my life I have been accused of being racist just by geography though. The internet has only made it worse and they cant even see the shade of my skin. I was just projecting from my own experience. 

Here is my take on racism and the recent rash of terrorism posts. People that are evil don't need any symbol to become or stay that way. The symbol didn't make them that way something else did. If we were to assign the monarch butterfly to the KKK then in thirty years or so many would rally around it under the KKK group. A symbol is only a symbol. It cant make someone evil. Something else does. 

As to the license plate thing, that is up to the states to work out individually. Texas had already banned it before the shooting because it is not a flag that was flown here. Not sure what idiot that ever decided to make them here in the first place. But one of the six flags of Texas is the one that was flown during the war. It conjures up no less or more than any other flag of that war but that one is part of our heritage. It is etched in the capitol of Austin's floor along with the other 5. Nacogdoches where I am from actually has 9 flags that we recognize. Some not so fond memories too. But it is our past and we try and learn from it. My family has been here since mid 1600's. It is _my_ past. 

http://pictures-of-historic-nacogdoches.com/023nineflags.html


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> On one level I agree. You're free to challenge all the other special license plates and have them halted as government speech, just as this one was, and I won't argue against it. The ruling is fairly sound. There's a difference between government allowing access to public grounds for different displays and government providing the means of display. They can open an area of a park to crosses, six pointed stars or crescent moons but they cannot provide the displays themselves.


The state can not provide a room in a school for a math club and not provide one for a Bible club. It it offers something to one group it must offer it to all others. Seeing as how no one group has the copyrights to use the CSA battle flag I don't see how the state can claim it to be the symbol of a hate group.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

watcher said:


> The state can not provide a room in a school for a math club and not provide one for a Bible club. It it offers something to one group it must offer it to all others. Seeing as how no one group has the copyrights to use the CSA battle flag I don't see how the state can claim it to be the symbol of a hate group.


The school must provide the room but it doesn't have to provide the bibles. The school is, in fact, prohibited from providing the bibles. Just as the state provides the license plates but has no requirement to put specific wording or symbols on the plate beyond the identifying numbers and letters. To be fair any other plate should be able to be challenged on the same grounds. Go ahead, I'll write a letter of support.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

So, the bible and other faith books are banned in schools.... dang that sure help educate children. Wow.... we had all those books when I went to school.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

kasilofhome said:


> So, the bible and other faith books are banned in schools.... dang that sure help educate children. Wow.... we had all those books when I went to school.


Not what I said. The school not providing something is not the same as the school banning something. Maybe a bit more time with the school provided dictionary would help with that understanding and education.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

School library tends to provide reading material.. fact. Fact... your statement of schools not providing.. fact every faith is represented in school libraries here. Nothing different here than a hen I grew up in New your.

The need to control is astounding... pathetic. Hitler had his reign ...evil always rears it's head. There will be an end to this silliness and just like I wondered how Hitler can to be voted in... the future will wonder about why we degrade America to a mess socially and politically... my anger with be...some had such a desire to vote with their lady parts. That insecure people with low self-esteem and green eyes banded together.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

kasilofhome said:


> School library tends to provide reading material.. fact. Fact... your statement of schools not providing.. fact every faith is represented in school libraries here. Nothing different here than a hen I grew up in New your.
> 
> The need to control is astounding... pathetic. Hitler had his reign ...evil always rears it's head. There will be an end to this silliness and just like I wondered how Hitler can to be voted in... the future will wonder about why we degrade America to a mess socially and politically... my anger with be...some had such a desire to vote with their lady parts. That insecure people with low self-esteem and green eyes banded together.


So your initial statement about bibles being banned in schools was false? Not a surprising tactic.

There's a difference between a school library containing a bible or other religous texts as reference materials and the school providing bibles to the after school bible study class or Korans to a similar Muslim group. It's subtle, but obvious.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Satire my dear..


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

I had an interesting exchange with a black man in east Cleveland yesterday.
Apparently, he wasn't too keen on my heritage and didn't like the fact I drove thru his neighborhood on my way to the in-laws.
Sure wish I had one of those horns in the car that played "Dixie".
I had to use my finger instead............eep:
That wasn't very nice of me, but trying to wreck my Jeep wasn't too cool either.
I think I'll get some historical items and try a cultural exchange program next year........


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

kasilofhome said:


> Satire my dear..


The bible as satire? How enlightened of you, darlin'.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

As the blind see


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

kasilofhome said:


> As the blind see


Yet even a blind man can smell what the beasts of the field leave in their wake. And the odor here is unmistakable.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Seeing and smelling are different .....this I stand that the blind don't see

The white and black as well as a racist.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> Yet even a blind man can smell what the beasts of the field leave in their wake. And the odor here is unmistakable.


If you'd just wear some deodorant...:grin:

Sorry, couldn't lay off of the hanging curve ball.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> The school must provide the room but it doesn't have to provide the bibles. The school is, in fact, prohibited from providing the bibles. Just as the state provides the license plates but has no requirement to put specific wording or symbols on the plate beyond the identifying numbers and letters. To be fair any other plate should be able to be challenged on the same grounds. Go ahead, I'll write a letter of support.


The school has to provide the same materials to each. If it offers a room and tables and chairs and food to the math club it can not tell the Bible club that it must bring its own.

If the state makes plates with a picture of an apple on it for teachers and with a picture of a bird for the audubon society and a dog/cat for the humane society it should also provide a plate with a picture of the battle flag for the sons of confederate veterans


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

watcher said:


> The school has to provide the same materials to each. If it offers a room and tables and chairs and food to the math club it can not tell the Bible club that it must bring its own.
> 
> If the state makes plates with a picture of an apple on it for teachers and with a picture of a bird for the audubon society and a dog/cat for the humane society it should also provide a plate with a picture of the battle flag for the sons of confederate veterans


Did I disagree with you? Different states have different standards for what groups are allowed special plates. As long as the standards are applied equally there's no problem. If you think they aren't challenge them in your state. I said I'd write a letter supporting you.

Providing a room, tables and chairs is different than providing study materials, be they math or biblical. One should be provided to all, the other not.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Jolly said:


> If you'd just wear some deodorant...:grin:
> 
> Sorry, couldn't lay off of the hanging curve ball.


No worries. I'm able to laugh at myself.


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