# Mosin-Nagant Increasing Supply



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Apparently they've uncovered a few big caches of these fine rifles overseas and they're being shipped back here for resell. The ones I've bought so far date back to 1943 and appear to have been stored in cosmoline for a couple of decades, but they are quite serviceable.

Check your local Cabela's or Gander Mountain (or any other local gunseller) and see if they have any in. I'm picking them up for $120 each, which is one heck of a bargain.


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## Tobster (Feb 24, 2009)

If $120 is a bargain, what is the upper end of the price range and is still a good value? I am not familiar with this rifle or prices. Thanks


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

Check out www.classicarms.us

Hex receiver, matching numbers going for $99


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Typically I see WW2 rifles like the Mauser sell for around $200-250. The Garand goes for $500-900 but I think that's just because it's an American-made rifle that people are more familiar with. I certainly don't think it's a better weapon than the Mauser. Mosin-Nagant rifles go for about $100-200 dollars on Gunbroker.com websites but it's somewhat rare to be able to walk into a store and pick them up for the low end of that. I don't like fiddling with the whole FFL nonsense.

My ultimate goal is that I'll have four or five of these rifles in working order. The Mauser is superior, but ammo is hard to find. The Garand is nice too, but already having a Mauser and a Mosin-Nagant I don't know that I need to spend that much money for one. 

My next big rifle purchase, I believe, is going to be a Mini-14.


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

Have you been reading Boston's Gun Bible again ....

What is superior about the Mauser - just curious - I have no experience with any other than handling Garands and M-14's at a gun show. The Garand is one, honkin' rifle. If you run out of ammo it certainly could double as a club. The M-14 makes me drool ... although I might chose some form of FAL over an M-14 due to magazine cost.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I like the bolt action and the rugged nature of the Mauser. I guess you could say that any superiority it has is simply subjective, but it's probably my favorite gun to shoot. I've got a variety of rifles from all eras and none of them shoot as smooth and as clean as the Mauser Model 98. I have the shorter carbine version which just absolutely is a blast. 

The 8mm round the Mauser uses is its downfall. These days you just have to have something that shoots a .223 or a 7.62x54r round or you'll find yourself in an ammo shortage. Even my .30-30 is a pain with rounds costing about sixty cents each. 

It's getting so a day at the range costs as much as a week's vacation. If you reload your own then it's half a week's vacation.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Oh, and my wife hides all my gun bibles when we're saving money for something else.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> What is superior about the Mauser


The Mauser 98 is one of the strongest rifles ever designed, with the most reliable extractor design. Many manufacturers today still copy it


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Are they the Mosin-Nagant model 91-30? 
Do they come with the military issued oiler, ammo pouches, dog collar sling, and bayonet - for that price??

The Mosin-Nagant 91-30 is a nice rifle - I have one here, but just a tad bit long. 
I prefer the Mosin-Nagant model M-44 carbines with the attached folding spike bayonet. That is why I have four of those Mosin-Nagant M-44 carbines in my collection: from two that are 1945 Russian issued, a 1952 Polish, and 1955 Romanian version. The recoil from the steel butt plate will hurt, but I put slip on shotgun recoil pads on the M-44 Carbines to control the brusing of my shoulder.

I do like the 7.62X54mm Russian cartridge, and have several spam cans of it squirreled away. The sportsman's guide is now selling an adapter that will allow chambering and firing a 7.62X25mm Tokarev round, in a Mosin-Nagant rifle chambered in 7.62X54mm Russian. I have even more of the 7.62X25mm Tokarev ammunition, since it somes in spam cans of 1224 rounds per.. That and I happen to like Soviet-Bloc weapons.

I need to order me one or more of these soon..

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/762-x-25-rifle-chamber-insert.aspx?a=650814

Yet the military weapons that take bayonets that I have in .30-06 Springfield (M-1 Garand/ Springfield model 1903A1) are fun to shoot also. But they will cost you much much more than the surplus Mosin-Nagant rifles that do come up for sale.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Yep, that's the very one, radiofish.  Comes with everything but a commissar to stand over your shoulder and tell you where to point it.


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

Is there an easy way you can remove the bayonet and the fastening for it from the model 44 Mosin Nagant? Or is it so integral to the carbine , that it would be destroyed in the removal??
Cheaper Than Dirt Catalogue this month has a "sporter synthetic stock" fo one model or the other(not sure which) for $59.95. That'd make it look a whole lot better, along with removing the bayonet.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

My wife is already after me to cut my new rifle down into a bolt-action version of the "Mare's Leg" ... I think she's trying to get me thrown in jail.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Old John said:


> Is there an easy way you can remove the bayonet and the fastening for it from the model 44 Mosin Nagant? Or is it so integral to the carbine , that it would be destroyed in the removal??
> Cheaper Than Dirt Catalogue this month has a "sporter synthetic stock" fo one model or the other(not sure which) for $59.95. That'd make it look a whole lot better, along with removing the bayonet.


To remove the bayonet from the M-44 carbine, just remove the large pivot screw. The Bayonet will slide out of the mounting tabs. To remove the mounting lugs, would require removing the front sight assembly first. Both the bayonet tab and the front sight assembly are secured by drift pins

Here is a link to an on-line PDF manual to the Mosin-Nagant M-44 carbine..
But the cover page has a photo of a Mosin-Nagant 91/30 rifle.

http://drum-runners.com/Weapons - russian_m44_carbine.pdf

I looked at my Russian and Polish versions, and they are the same... Just that the Russian wartime issued ones (1945) the bayonet requires assistance in going up and over the muzzle. It is missing the muzzle side tab to elevate the spring loaded bayonet forward to facilate use of the bayonet. That was due to saving steel during WWII.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Oh, I forgot to mention that the 5 round metal stripper clips will fit all of the 91/30, M-44 carbine, and the other Mosin-Nagant variations such as the 1938 carbine... 
Just insert the stripper clip into the groove at the rear of the receiver with the bolt open, and push your rounds down into the fixed magazine using your thumb.

Here is a link to the different Mosin-Nagant rifle variations, chambered in 7.62X54mm Russian.

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinM.htm

I really like that cartridge, and the fact that the Soviet-Bloc Mosin-Nagant military issued rifles do come with a bayonet!!!!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> My wife is already after me to cut my new rifle down into a bolt-action version of the "Mare's Leg"


Leave 16 inches from the back of the chamber to the end of the barrel, and 26 inches from the end of the barrel to the end of the stock, and it's perfectly legal, although it would be harder to handle


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

I had to cut one of mine down to 20" barrel because of cleaning rod damage...had my Mauser genius recrown($20) and thread for muzzle brake($30),have scout scope setup and it is fairly accurate with handloads.I have about 150 Norma/Lapua brass I picked up at a yard sale and I also pulldown Combloc ammo and use good powder/bullets.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

The carbine is much louder than the 91 30 . . . Ho Boy . . iffin you cut the barrel down even more your Really gonna have a ear drum buster.

Fire it at night and enjoy the flame thrower..............


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

If you like the shorter length without the bayonet, get a 91\59
I bought a 91\30 from Cabela's and a M44 from a fella I know on a gun forum, and we had a 91\59.
Cabela's had the 91\30s on sale a couple weeks ago for 99.99 with all the accessories, and they had the ammo (non corrosive) for 9.95 a box.
A LGS has them for $5.25 a pack of 20 but they are the corrosive.
I like my Mosins, but the Mauser action is so much smoother and better designed, there's really no comparison.
I believe the '03 Springfield has a Mauser designed action too.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

timfromohio said:


> Check out www.classicarms.us
> 
> Hex receiver, matching numbers going for $99


Wonderful site there...only bad thing is I'm only allowed to buy one per two months and I have one being delivered to the MCX for pickup for S&W in the next week or so. 

That means a two month wait.

::sigh::

Purty stuff there.

So, I'm interested in this Mosin...anyone else want to talk in layman's terms what is good about it, the ammo of it and if the ones on that site are worthwhile?


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

Dunham SPorts usually has Mossin's at $120 or so. They also carry cases of surplus ammo. I see them for sale from individuals around here often which is my preferred method.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Cornhusker said:


> I believe the '03 Springfield has a Mauser designed action too.


It used plenty of Mauser features. We had to pay Pete Mauser a royalty on the patent copies and on the stripper clip copies, about $1.50 for each rifle, right up until we got into WWI, then we quit paying for some reason.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

ChristyACB said:


> So, I'm interested in this Mosin...anyone else want to talk in layman's terms what is good about it, the ammo of it and if the ones on that site are worthwhile?


Well, what I like about it is that it shoots a relatively easy-to-find and cheap-to-acquire round, is extremely durable, and will last essentially forever.

It has an effective range of about 400-500 meters, which is beyond my 200-300 meter "able to hit the broadside of a barn" range. 

It is extremely forgiving. You can drop it, sink it in a swamp, fire it until the barrel glows, and then wipe it down and do the same thing tomorrow.

It's extremely effective. It is the predecessor to the AK series of rifle and all of the benefits of that series came from its ancestor. I also don't mind the bolt action at all. Semi-automatics and automatics lend themselves to inaccurate fire and high ammo expenditures. Not really a good idea if ammo becomes even more scarce or criminalized.

Bottom line, it's a gun designed for soldiers to kill other soldiers. It was meant to be given to troops who didn't have a regular armorer assigned to them and might be maintaining their own weaponry for months if not years on end. Everyone should have at least a couple of those in their private arsenal. Just in case.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Ernie said:


> Everyone should have at least a couple of those in their private arsenal. Just in case.


Way back when 6.5 Swedes were cheap and plentiful, I got some. Now I wish I had gotten more. Same with SKS, Martini Cadets, P14 Enfields, 1917 Colt and S&W revolvers, etc. Get them while they are cheap even if you don't think you need them.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

Ernie said:


> It's getting so a day at the range costs as much as a week's vacation. If you reload your own then it's half a week's vacation.


Actually, going to the range can still be a bargain if you train most of the day with .22 and bring along the more expensive shooters and run only enough ammo through them to stay proficient with them.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Leave 16 inches from the back of the chamber to the end of the barrel, and 26 inches from the end of the barrel to the end of the stock, and it's perfectly legal, although it would be harder to handle


Think i would really check this out real close now days or never let anyone see it if i did it


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Well, what I like about it is that it shoots a relatively easy-to-find and cheap-to-acquire round, is extremely durable, and will last essentially forever.
> 
> It has an effective range of about 400-500 meters, which is beyond my 200-300 meter "able to hit the broadside of a barn" range.
> 
> ...


Wow...that is pretty persuasive, Ernie. I thank you for the tutorial. I do like a gun you can drop because of clumsy running and still count on shooting when you need it.

Are the ones on that site...I believe they are the 91-30s, good ones? Anyone else want to browse that site and see if there is anything worth sniffing up.

I just re-looked at my laws here and it is only the handguns I have to wait two months per purchase for. Rifles and shotguns I can do what I like. 

Never can have too many rifles that use a good ammo...that's my opinion.

*Also*, anyone see that Wolf .380 ammo there? Looked pretty good. I have a hard time sourcing it in bulk and paid over 100 for 150 rounds last time for decent stuff. Would love to get that many for that price.

*Also*, the ammo their offering to go with the Mosin...any good?

Thanks!


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Its probably the corrosive stuff . . . .shoots good . . .just gotta clean clean.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I believe a good amount of that com-bloc 'surplus' bulk ammo is;
steel casing, corrosive primer, FMJ steel bullet with a copper flash jacket.

A whole bunch different than what Joe Public is used to buying for 'deer hunting' from the USA manos...............

but it shoots fine


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

The old .303 British Enfield is priced pretty reasonably and a durable proven battle rifle.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

Yep, cheap and reliable, but I gotta' say the Nagant is my least favorite of any of the Mauser knock off's I have experience with......handles with all the grace of a log, crummy ergonomics, crummy trigger, and at least on the Nagants I've owned/fired, the safety is really difficult to operate.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Christy, the 91/30 is as good as any of the Mosin variants. That's also the most commonly produced and so therefore the cheapest and easiest to obtain today.

Swamp man, it's certainly inferior to the Mauser but it has one advantage over the Mauser that I like ... more common ammunition. I can't pick up 8mm rounds just anywhere, but the 7.62x54r rounds are a lot more readily available. Some of the websites mention the 91/30 CAN fire 7.62x39mm which is the same as the AK-47 fires, giving you both a single bolt action rifle AND an automatic using the same ammunition pool (assuming that it really can fire the 7.62x39mm round). 

That said, when I'm shooting for fun and pleasure it's NOT the Mosin-Nagant that I bring to the table. The safety IS a pain and it's like trying to fire a shovel. The gun's too long since it was meant as a trench weapon with bayonet attached. 

The Enfield is a great gun as well, but it's got the same problem as the Mauser ... problematic ammo type.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Yeah, the manual safety is turning the rear of the bolt assembly by hand.. It doesn't make for a fast release, and requires a good grip on the knurled knob... 
But it was designed for use by Russian peasants, and requires low maintenance from an armorer.

The surplus ammo is corrosive, but I always clean my weapons after firing them. I saw a Mosin-Nagant M-44 carbine that had fired surplus corrosive ammo ,and was not cleaned afterwards. It ruined the barrel with severe pitting!!

But for a large caliber rifle (7.62mm/ .30 caliber) that costs around $100.00 dollars, with current mil-surp ammunition prices of around 20 cents per round in bulk (spam can of 440 or 880 rounds of steel cased FMJ 150 or so grain projectiles per) purchases - not a bad back up rifle. They do commerically make 205 grain SP (soft point) lead filled projectiles with steel or brass cased hunting ammunition in 7.62X54mm Russian. Winchester makes commerical ammunition for the 7.62X54mm Russian caliber.

If you buy the case of 880 rounds, it comes in a neato mil-surp reuseable wooden case! Make sure that you get the steel 'can opener' tool, when you order spam cans of ammunition. It is a real help in opening them up, plus the spam cans of ammunition have a shelf life of 50+ years if properly stored.

As posted above, I like the M-44 carbine over the 91/30 long version of the rifle. But they do kick, and with a steel buttplate - it will leave a bruise on your shoulder after a day at the range. That is why I put slip on shotgun recoil pads on mine/ and to lenghten the stock for my long arms.

I do have Wolf ammunition is several pistol calibers (7.62X25mm Tokarev, 9mm Parabellum [9X19mm], and 9mm Makarov [9X18mm]), never had a problem running it through any of my semi-auto pistols. Even with firing hundreds of rounds of the steel cased 'Wolf Military Classic" 9mm parabellum, in 4 different models of 9mm pistols.

Of course I get a lot of my ammunition from the sportsmans guide, and order in bulk....


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## triple divide (Jan 7, 2010)

swamp man said:


> Yep, cheap and reliable, but I gotta' say the Nagant is my least favorite of any of the Mauser knock off's I have experience with......handles with all the grace of a log, crummy ergonomics, crummy trigger, and at least on the Nagants I've owned/fired, the safety is really difficult to operate.


I concur whole heartedly.

The best (IMO) production rifle ever made off the 98 action (at that time period other than a Mauser) is the Winchester 54. After the war, the 54 was reworked by Winchester into what is now known as the "pre 64" Model 70.

Back when I used to own rifles, I had one of each models chambered in 30Government06. I liked the fit, feel and iron of the 54 a little more than my scoped 70.

Back on topic.. at $120/rifle this is well worth investigating. My experience with MN's is that even 70 years later the majority will still out shoot the shooter.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

triple divide said:


> Back on topic.. at $120/rifle this is well worth investigating. My experience with MN's is that even 70 years later the majority will still out shoot the shooter.


Heck, they'll OUTLAST the shooter in most cases.

I like to buy what I call "heritage guns". That's weapons that my sons and possibly my grandsons will still be able to use.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Heck, they'll OUTLAST the shooter in most cases.
> 
> I like to buy what I call "heritage guns". That's weapons that my sons and possibly my grandsons will still be able to use.


Absolutely Ernie! That to me is a major consideration. While guns were everywhere when I was young and not a one of them with a government eyeball on them, that is certainly no longer the case.

Any gun that will last and possibly allow my family to slip past the increasingly restrictive weapon environment we have today, with a functional weapon for hunting and defense is a winner to me.

I can stand discomfort a lot better than being disarmed.


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## triple divide (Jan 7, 2010)

Christy,

If I am understanding you correctly, when the the weapon was made means nothing as far as government knowledge is concerned. 

Imported weapons for sale must have the serial numbers recorded for retail sale. After the first (as in final, if you intend to retain possesion)sale from (for example) Cabelas, the BATF now has a traceable starting point that ultimately ends with you.

If keeping off paper is your concern, buy a rifle in the state you reside in privately in a legal FTF transaction after running the weapons serial number through a couple different channels to be sure it is not stolen _*before*_ you complete the purchase.

If I'm wrong on this someone please correct me, as I would appreciate clarification if I'm mistaken.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

Triple Divide,

Oh, I understand all that just fine. I was referring to the increasing restrictions on buying them. Sure, they'll know I have them, but I'll have them. It is harder to take away guns from those that legally possess them (for now) than to simply enact laws that make it impossible to get more.

Hence, my desire to continue with increasing my "collection". On the double up side, this one I can truthfully say I wanted as a "collector". Collections are generally viewed with much less suspicion than workaday weapons, especially for one like me who has an entire adulthood in the military.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

Ernie said:


> My next big rifle purchase, I believe, is going to be a Mini-14.


Hiya', Ernie. Just wnderin', why a mini-14? I've owned a couple of them, and wasn't all that enamored with either one. Not bad firearms, but not overly-accurate, not all that reliable, and cant do anything as well as an AR can....an M-14, it ain't.

My mini-30 was a whole 'nuther story, a great gun, and in a great chambering for us folks who live in brush country.

My shooting buddy has a SOCOM m-14, hands down the nicest battle rifle I've ever handled, but too rich for my blood.

Before you plunk down your money on that m-14, fire a few rounds out of it real fast, and see if the barrell don't turn into a noodle.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Well, I was looking for a semi-automatic and I don't have anything that fires a 5.56 round. 

Are you saying that the barrels aren't reliable under prolonged fire? I don't know anyone who owns one so it's not something I get to play with. I'll have to do some more research and see if you aren't saving me a fortune.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

swamp man said:


> Hiya', Ernie. Just wnderin', why a mini-14? I've owned a couple of them, and wasn't all that enamored with either one. Not bad firearms, but not overly-accurate, not all that reliable, and cant do anything as well as an AR can....an M-14, it ain't.
> 
> My mini-30 was a whole 'nuther story, a great gun, and in a great chambering for us folks who live in brush country.
> 
> ...


The mini-30 fires the 7.62x39 right?


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

Has anybody here tried the Saiga in .223? Pretty reasonably priced too.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

seedspreader said:


> The mini-30 fires the 7.62x39 right?


Yep, that's the one. Way more accurate than any of the SKs' or AK's I've had, too.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

The Mini-30 gets great reviews, but oh mama what a price tag. I guess it's no worse than the Mini-14. I'll keep my eye open and see what shows up at the local gun shops.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Since I have the SKS I've always had loose plans to get a mini-30.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

Ernie said:


> Well, I was looking for a semi-automatic and I don't have anything that fires a 5.56 round.
> 
> Are you saying that the barrels aren't reliable under prolonged fire? I don't know anyone who owns one so it's not something I get to play with. I'll have to do some more research and see if you aren't saving me a fortune.


Both of mine were earlier models, the earlier models being notorious for being inaccurute as can be after the barrell heats up....my groups went all over the place after just a few shots.

I "hear" that some improvements have been made, and that going with a heavier barrell straightens out the problem, but I haven't tried one so can't attest to it.....just sayin', having owned a couple, I'm skepticle as to whether or not I'd want to stake my life on one.

If affordable and available ammo is a concern, I can tell ya' that neither of my mini-14's liked Wolf ammo. The varnish crud on Wolf really gummed them up.

I haven't checked prices in a while (since I'm too broke to window-shop), but you oughta' be able to build a nice AR for around the same price that you'd pay for a mini-14, and it's a superior weapon with much more potential to customize. After I got my first AR, it shot sooooooo much better that my mini stayed in the closet.


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## Murray in ME (May 10, 2002)

Ernie said:


> Some of the websites mention the 91/30 CAN fire 7.62x39mm which is the same as the AK-47 fires, giving you both a single bolt action rifle AND an automatic using the same ammunition pool (assuming that it really can fire the 7.62x39mm round).


I doubt that the 7.62x39 would fire in the 91/30. The round would simply fall to far forward in the chamber. There is to much difference in measurements. The base diameter of the 7.62x54R is .487" vs. .447" for the 7.62x39. The cartridge overall length for the 7.62x54R is 3.038" vs. 2.205" for the 7.62x39. Even if it did fire (which I really doubt), you'd be dealing with, at the very least a ruptured case. That's the best case scenario.

I'm not trying to nitpick you Ernie. I just don't want someone who might not know better to try it.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Ernie said:


> Well, I was looking for a semi-automatic and I don't have anything that fires a 5.56 round.
> 
> Are you saying that the barrels aren't reliable under prolonged fire? I don't know anyone who owns one so it's not something I get to play with. I'll have to do some more research and see if you aren't saving me a fortune.


The new Mini-14s are OK.
I've got an older one, and the barrels weren't very heavy so they heat up pretty fast.
Fun gun though, and accurate enough to hit what I need to hit with it.


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

Ernie - I have done a huge amount of reading on Mini-14 as I don't have anything in .223/5.56. Wanted a semi-auto, reliable, miniute of pie plate accuracy. The newer Mini's (581 series) are much improved over older ones - accuracy is improved, heavier duty barrel, rounded out mag well for easier mag changing, and high capacity mag prices are coming down. The advantages I see are (1) very reliable action, (2) different than AR (if you just don't want an AR), (3) used to be cheaper. Disadvantages, (1) spare parts availability (can't buy things like firing pins - must send rifle back to Ruger), (2) mixed reviews on whether or not the rifle will handle cheap, steel cased ammo. Cost is now up in the air - CDNN sports has the best prices, brand new Mini for $600. They also offer an optics ready S&W M&P AR for $600 - so you can get arguable the most ubiquitous platform out there right now for around the same money? 

Another option you might consider - the Saiga. AK-action, in .223 the barrel is quite thick (they use the same basic OD barrel as they do for the 7.63x39 version), and they cost $350 brand new. Of course, you'll want to convert it (to legally enable high-capacity mags and improve the trigger) which will cost you $150. So, for $500 you'll have an absolutely reliable firearm that will handle steel case ammo, easily be minute of pie plate accurate, and is reasonable in cost. You still have the issue of parts availability however.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

The Saiga is a pretty good gun
I have one in .223 and I'm really thinking of getting one in 7.63x39.
I like 'em


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

Cornhusker - did you convert yours?


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

I have both Rugers. An early built Mini 14 is pretty much what everyone posted. I never used any steel cased ammo in it but it's a reliable bullet spitter with brass. Seems to digest any reload it's fed too. The Mini 30 is my favorite though. It's primary use is close range [100 yds or less] deer hunting. The cartridge just doesn't have the power on lung and heart shots much past that. I've done it at longer ranges but always had a tracking job. A premium bullet would help but none are made to my knowledge for that caliber. The rifle also doesn't have the accuracy [or mine doesn't] to attempt neck and head shots much past 75 yds, and I'm an expert shot if I lay off the booze first.:gaptooth: Off a bench, with a Burris scope, using Federal or Winchester factory loads, I get 3-4" groups at 100 yds. Aim above the heart, pull the trigger and collect the deer. I'd say about 3/4 of the time, there is no exit wound or it's not much bigger than 30 cal. I'd like to try something heavier than the standard 123 gr bullet sometime for accuracy and penetration. Maybe someone else has done this comparison?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Murray in ME said:


> I doubt that the 7.62x39 would fire in the 91/30. The round would simply fall to far forward in the chamber. There is to much difference in measurements. The base diameter of the 7.62x54R is .487" vs. .447" for the 7.62x39. The cartridge overall length for the 7.62x54R is 3.038" vs. 2.205" for the 7.62x39. Even if it did fire (which I really doubt), you'd be dealing with, at the very least a ruptured case. That's the best case scenario.
> 
> I'm not trying to nitpick you Ernie. I just don't want someone who might not know better to try it.


Hey, no problem. That's why I brought it up. It was something I'd read that I figured might or might not be accurate.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

timfromohio said:


> Cornhusker - did you convert yours?


Not yet and not sure I will with this one.
If I get a 7.62 I'd like to convert it though.
I've read up on the conversion a lot and talked to some guys who have done it.
I don't think it'd be too bad.


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## megafatcat (Jun 30, 2009)

Do NOT fire ammo not designed for a particular firearm. Just because something sounds the same or close, does not mean that they will work. A 30-06 fires a .308" diameter bullet. The Brtitsh Enfield .303 mentioned earlier fires a .312" bullet. The 30-06 and the 7.62x39 seal the chamber at the neck of the case. The .303 and the 7.62x54R use a rim at the base. EVERY letter and number means a LOT, .45 ACP and .45 AR are not the same. .38s&w ammo will fire in a .38spl firearm but has a little too much room in the chamber and the case can split, releasing gas back at your face and hands.
.002" is a concern with the pressures involved in firearms, which can reach 52,000 psi or more.
Remember that you are creating a very high pressure explosion 3" from your eyes and 1" from your hands.
Before you follow advice about changing ammo that you get on the internet, ask a gunsmith!


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

I've been thinking about the original posting regarding the Mosin-Nagant. Why not just go for a Savage or Remington .308 bolt gun? Are they that much more expensive? .308 can be found for reasonable prices and is bound to be more common than 7.62x54. Just a thought - comments?


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the 181 series had a 18 inch barrel . the last 9 inches aproximatly were unsuported and not particularily oversized possably a bit undersized either way what seems to have been the problem was barrel ringing 

yes ringing like a bell caused vibration that led to wider groups 

there were many reports that adding a flash suppressor would change the barrel resonance and add weigh to dampen it 

that being said i have not noticed any serios inconsistancy , and the iron sights don't lend themselves to sub MOA at100 shooting for me any way 

now that we are in the days of new ar-15 rifles avalable from newer manufaturers being made on new CNC machinery we are seing 700 dollar AR's that many claim are as good or better tollerances than thier colt AR 
and politics has caused the price of a MINI into the 600 or more dollar range if it was my money i would probably spend the extra and have the AR also.

so if someone wants to give me 600 for my mini they can have it 

but for now it works fine.

price and fuction was always what carried the MINI a 3-400 dollar mini rancher against a 1200 AR , it was easy to decide witch one was going to find it's home in trucks across america 

i have not had any feed or eject problems , as i understand it they tend to follow the magazine


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

tim form ohio why not the 150 dollar mauser rebarrels , i was at a show a year ago a guy was peddling mausers with isreali 308 barrels action was old , barrel was laser engraved 308 he had 3 of them for 150 each , i almost baught one.

a stevens 308 or 30-06 are about the low end of price for a bolt gun at 300 dollars they are good quality , but double th eprice and they come with no sights so a scope is nessacary so 400 for a usable hunter or 120 somtimes there is just not room in the budget 

price point sells alot , just look how many guns under or around 250 sell and are around comparted to guns over 500

thats what made the SKS so poular a med-highpower 30 call rifle semi auto for used to be 79 , then 99 then 129 , then 149 then 179 and still for around 200-250


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

GreencountyPete - thanks for the suggestion - I was unaware such rifles existed. That sounds like a better solution since iron sights are an option - like you pointed out, any new bolt gun would require a scope.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

When I had bought my Savage model 110E bolt action rifle chambered in .30-06 springfield new in the box (about $260.00 from a business that was closing) - it came with factory mounted iron sights. So not all new bolt action rifles are not missing iron sights or require a scope and mounting rings.

I could add after market optics to it like I did years ago to my older Winchester model 70 chambered in .30-06 springfield. But I prefer to use iron sights instead of a scope even out to several hundreds of yards - just my own preference... I only have three rifles in my collection with a scope (optics) on them. One is the Winchester model 70, a Marlin lever action (side eject) carbine model 1895 chambered in .357 magnum, and a Remington model 581 bolt action rifle chambered in .22 short/ long/ long rifle. They tend to stay in the safe, and don't get much field use!

You can mount a scope on a Mosin-Nagant rifle, but it requires the services of a gunsmith for the drilling and tapping of the receiver to take scope mounts. That and the Mosin-Nagant style straight bolt handle means that you would have to mount it foreward of the receiver..

megafatcat - good point about the ammunition specifications. I do have a revolver that is chambered in .38 S&W, along with other revolvers that are chambered in .38 special/ .357 magnum.


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## Rourke (Jul 15, 2010)

Gotta look into getting me a Mosin Nagant.

How difficult to mount a modern scope?

Thanks and take care - 

Rourke
ModernSurvivalOnline.com


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

The only problem with Mini-14's is the .223 chambering versus 5.56 chambering......say what you will about"there being NO difference"...but in reality there is.If you're shooting 5.56 in it while shooting in the winter,should be fine except extreme rapid fire.BUT in the summer and the heat, pressures are a whole nother story and broken parts may ensue.But if you reload and use .223 exclusively,it's a great,light,closein rifle..CDNN has factory 20 or 30 rd mags for 24.95-a DEAL...


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Hi,
I saw one of the new supply of 91/30's today at big 5 sports. In very nice shape the bore still had lots of cosmoline present!
I strongly recomend cleaning it all out of the bore if you buy one. It would really suck to buy a new toy and overstress the reciver the first time you shot it or worse have the fool thing come apart on you.
Other than that it was in really good shape, the metal very nice and the wood the usual scrap wood, albeit in very nice shape/
Dutch


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Rourke said:


> Gotta look into getting me a Mosin Nagant.
> 
> How difficult to mount a modern scope?
> 
> ...


They do make a scope mount that pins on where the rear sight is.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

I did a quick 'giggle' search and found these links for mounting a scope on a Mosin-Nagant rifle..

[ame]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mosin-nagant+rifle+mounting+a+scope&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=[/ame]

Some of the mounts to put a scope on a Mosin-Nagant require drilling, tapping, and altering the bolt handle from straight out, to a curved handle.

http://www.cabelas.com/p-0003643221836a.shtml

Here is one of the pages, that describes the long eye relief scope mount that Cornhusker described for a M-N model 1944 carbine using the rear iron sight mount..

http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/skm44scopemount/index.asp

But I don't know about modifying any of my Mosin-Nagant M-44 carbines. I think that I will stick with using the military issued iron sights.










As you can see, the only modifications that I have made to my Mosin-Nagant M-44 carbines were adding a slip on shotgun recoil pad to cover the steel butt plate plus increasing the stock lenght for my long arms - and using a different type of sling besides the military leather 'dog collar' issued ones. I had one of the leather 'dog collar' sling straps break due to age cracks, so I swapped them out.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Cornhusker said:


> They do make a scope mount that pins on where the rear sight is.


 Yes,and it works great.I put one on my cutdown Moisin and with a 4X pistol scope,it's pretty accurate.After levelling mount,use blue locktite on allenheads.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

radiofish said:


> I did a quick 'giggle' search and found these links for mounting a scope on a Mosin-Nagant rifle..
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...scope&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
> 
> ...


That's a nice collection.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

The Mosin-Nagant is a fine rifle and they are extremely affordable right now. But depending on what your planned usage is they may or may not be the best choice.

For hunting or target shooting it could be a fine choice. For a SHTF or defending your home scenario against multiple armed intruders, not a chance. It is one thing to have your opponent armed with a bolt action rifle, and entirely another to have him armed with a modern day high capacity mag semi-automatic rifle. The shear volume of fire from the semi-auto will be the deciding factor because they can simply keep you pinned down as they out flank you.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

FyredUp said:


> The Mosin-Nagant is a fine rifle and they are extremely affordable right now. But depending on what your planned usage is they may or may not be the best choice.
> 
> For hunting or target shooting it could be a fine choice. For a SHTF or defending your home scenario against multiple armed intruders, not a chance. It is one thing to have your opponent armed with a bolt action rifle, and entirely another to have him armed with a modern day high capacity mag semi-automatic rifle. The shear volume of fire from the semi-auto will be the deciding factor because they can simply keep you pinned down as they out flank you.


And then you take careful aim and watch your breathing and squeeze off one good round and solve the problem.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

Ed Norman said:


> And then you take careful aim and watch your breathing and squeeze off one good round and solve the problem.


Okay, you stick your head up to take aim with your Mosin-Nagant, and I will take a scoped, 20 shot, M-14. I don't care how good of a shot you are when I can rip of 4 or 5 shots at your head before you can even get in position to aim. The outcome seems obvious, to me anyways. 

To each his own. I do have bolt action rifles but they would not be my first choice in a SHTF or Home Defense situation.


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## megafatcat (Jun 30, 2009)

I think Ernie and some others I know are trying to set up a small # of persons for defence, cheaply. Imagine 12 bolt rifles pointed at one m-14. (rough cost comparison)
Always possible to upgrade later, as funds allow.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

megafatcat said:


> I think Ernie and some others I know are trying to set up a small # of persons for defence, cheaply. Imagine 12 bolt rifles pointed at one m-14. (rough cost comparison)
> Always possible to upgrade later, as funds allow.


Of course, and I am not attacking their choice. If it fits their needs then it is a good choice for them.

Imagine 12 bolt action rifles pointed at 12 semi-auto high capacity rifles...


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> don't care how good of a shot you are when I can rip of 4 or 5 shots at your head before you can even get in position to aim


But ONLY your first shot will be an AIMED shot, so you have no advantage over the bolt other than you're wasting more ammo. 
You're also saying you are *already exposed* so you'd be in big trouble if the other guy can shoot from concealment without attracting your attention

You're *assuming *you will see THEM before they are ready to shoot.



> The outcome seems obvious, to me anyways.


You'll always have an advantage if YOU get to make up the scenario

Don't let having a semi make you so cocky that you think it really matters in every situation. It will get you killed


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

FyredUp said:


> Okay, you stick your head up to take aim with your Mosin-Nagant, and I will take a scoped, 20 shot, M-14. I don't care how good of a shot you are when I can rip of 4 or 5 shots at your head before you can even get in position to aim. The outcome seems obvious, to me anyways.
> 
> To each his own. I do have bolt action rifles but they would not be my first choice in a SHTF or Home Defense situation.


While you are sticking your head up to shoot me, I am sticking my head up to shoot you. I am counting on my first shot, not "ripping off 4 or 5 shots at my head". Not in my head, mind you, but at my head. Your words. 

I often hunt with single shot rifles or pistols. I also have semiautos. I make the first shot count, always have.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

I think if I had my head down where I had to stick it up to get it shot, I'd just keep it down no matter what I was carrying.
SHTF isn't all Zombies and rioting masses, there's food gathering and predator control too.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

Golly guys, I have not attacked your choice just suggested why I would prefer an accurate seni-auto over an accurate bolt action rifle in a SHTF or home defense scenario.

You like the bolt guns? Enjoy!!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Chechnyans fought the Russian army to a standstill and inflicted heavy, heavy losses for years and they started out using bolt operated Mosin-Nagant 91/30's.

By the end of the war they were much better armed, however. Mostly with the more modern stuff the Russian army had been carrying. 

One of the problems faced by guerilla armies with semi-automatics or automatics is that they do not have the logistical tail to "rip off four or five shots". Not when a guerilla fighter's pocket is filled with a hunk of bread, a water bottle, and a box of ammo and it may be a week before they return to a safe house to resupply. Bolt actions tend to make guerilla fighters more cautious at what firefights they engage in as well as how carefully they aim, as documented in a handful of studies.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

FyredUp said:


> Golly guys, I have not attacked your choice just suggested why I would prefer an accurate seni-auto over an accurate bolt action rifle in a SHTF or home defense scenario.
> 
> You like the bolt guns? Enjoy!!


I like the ARs too, or even the AK and variants, and would prefer them in a tight spot.
I do like the old boomers though, but in an urban warfare situation, I too would prefer something a bit lighter and faster.


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

I own guns of many types, lever action, bolt action, pump, and semi-auto. Frankly in a SHTF scenario I would grab the lever gun before the bolt. Speed being the main factor.

I am not a rebel or guerilla fighter and if I am defending my home my resupply is right there. If suppressive fire of ripping off 20 or 30 rounds makes the bad guys decide to go elsewhere, mission accomplished.


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Hey Guys,
Ain't we getting pretty far off target here? 
The real point here is that you can get a rugged, military bolt rifle, (ugly granted but thats part of why they are cheap) 
For a $100 for a well kept Mosin Nagant, 880 rounds of ball ammo in a spam can for $82 (plus shipping)

For someone starting out right now thats a great deal! To be highly recomended!

So for around $200 you have a basic kit, if you add a cleaning kit. You are a long way toward having yourself well armed. A second spam can to shoot it in, 
Next. 
If the head fool in chief gives you time, you can upgrade it cheaply.
The availbility of aftermarket plastic stocks make it easy to upgrade the stock (another $50-60 ) or just add a rubber but pad ($20) for the one that replaces the but plate. The over stock verstion I don't like as well. Better triggers are also availible. 
Granted if you had the $400 to buy a modern hunting bolt rifle you could have one of better materials. But we are talking about half that. Or even buying a pair of them for two people with enough ammo to perhaps get thru the first bad year.
In the current tough market!
I have dozens of modern rifles of many styles, I already own a Moisin rifle, and have 500 or so rounds for it. Mostly because I got it even cheaper than that. Anyone seen any bayonets for the rilfe?
The only rifles that interest me must be able to hold a 1 inch group or better at 100 yards. With good ammo.
Thats why SKS, mini14's most AK variants, and most AR's don't have any interest to me.
A current gun rag shows a test group they call good, with a 2 inch group at 50 yards! I get the feeling the author was told to do an, aproving article of the rifle and found his own way to warn his readers who were paying attention.
I'd call that gun scrap metal, done poorly. Something for the spray and pray crowd.
Dutch


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Where are you finding the ammo for 880 rds for 82.00???

Hook me up.


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

I am planning for 20 people of shooting age. I would rather have all 20 with bolt actions and lots of ammo than 5 with semis and lots of ammo and 15 with assorted whatever and 20 of this round and 50 of that. All the statistics for combat show that the higher the capacity the issue weapon in a firefight the more rounds fired per casualty. That said I would still prefer all 20 with semis and lots of ammo but realistically it ain't a gonna happen.


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Well shoot,
yer right 440 rounds for $82, sorry, 
see I don't know every thing.
Dutch


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## FyredUp (May 22, 2010)

willbuck1 said:


> I am planning for 20 people of shooting age. I would rather have all 20 with bolt actions and lots of ammo than 5 with semis and lots of ammo and 15 with assorted whatever and 20 of this round and 50 of that. All the statistics for combat show that the higher the capacity the issue weapon in a firefight the more rounds fired per casualty. That said I would still prefer all 20 with semis and lots of ammo but realistically it ain't a gonna happen.


Wasting ammunition may be partially the fault of the ease of firing the weapon, but the majority of it is the fault of the human firing the weapon. When my fiancee and my boys and I shoot we rarely shoot more than one or two shots at a time. Usually one shot stressing accuracy and not counting on spray and pray. The exception to that may be double and triple taps with the pistols. 

There is a comparison to the fire service. Water damage is often blamed on the size of the hose or the gpm's flowing through the nozzle. Any experienced firefighter will tell you that is hogwash. Excessive water damage is caused by inexperienced firefighters not shutting off the nozzle when the fire is out, needlessly flowing water. Taking aimed shots with an M-14, or a Mosin Nagant, is exactly the same, line up the sights, squeeze the trigger. Controlling the urge to go bang, bang, bang, is the operators problem not the rifles.

The one advantage that the large capacity semi-auto has over the bolt gun is the ability for one guy to lay down suppressive fire. It would take 3 or 4 or more guys with bolt action rifles to come close to doing the same work.

Now if you have 20 guys with bolt action rifles you have some good firepower. I don't have 20 guys, I have me, my 2 sons, and my fiancee that are shooters. If I let my sister and her family in that adds 1 more shooter. I need the capability to lay down a lot of fire with minimal people. That is why I have semi-sutos with large capacity magazines. Frankly, I prefer the idea of ripping off 30 rounds with my AK and hopefully scaring off the bad guys versus them kicking in the door and saying hello to Mr Mossberg and his double ought buck offspring.

To each his own, finances, availability, numbers of people you can count on for defense, training, and skill level, will always play a part in arming for self defense. Good luck and let's all pray it never comes to this in the first place.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

zant said:


> The only problem with Mini-14's is the .223 chambering versus 5.56 chambering......say what you will about"there being NO difference"...but in reality there is.If you're shooting 5.56 in it while shooting in the winter,should be fine except extreme rapid fire.BUT in the summer and the heat, pressures are a whole nother story and broken parts may ensue.But if you reload and use .223 exclusively,it's a great,light,closein rifle..CDNN has factory 20 or 30 rd mags for 24.95-a DEAL...


i was concerned with the 5.56 nato vs .223 rem difference , that was untill i read the ruger manual , where they say that the rifle will accept 5.56 nato and that it falls within the preasure levels the rifle was desinged for. the manual is free for download and can be viewed online as well.

if i had to pay the new price for a mini today i would get a doublestar or cmmg ar-15 for about 659.00 and not think twice. but there are deals to be had from time to time and if you found one it would be worth ones while to have one they are a good rifle , and a very handi size , with a very handi safty 

an ak is a good functional gun but the safty is akward at best , same for the nargant with it's knureled nob, the sks was ok but not great 
ak clack is said to have saved many GIs life in se-aisa ,the sound of removing the safty on an ak

if you have ever noticed every usa service rifle after the 1903 was made so that the safty could be set to fire while diving for the ground even with a gloved hand and without removing the trigger hand from the rifle grip
most countries were equiping thier peasant population with a simple stupid easy to operate and maintain rifle , i also sometimes woder if to some counties the rifle was more valuable than the shooter . we were equiping educated , and diciplined men with a tool that would serve to give an advantage in most cases.
another inportant distinction was that in most a round could be chambered with the saftey engadged or on safe.
i think they saw a new form of soilder emerging , the hunter stalker , and not the line holding warm body in the trench


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