# Healthy wooled lambs with milk goiter??



## tanya2873 (Feb 13, 2014)

I have some Suffolk and Suffolk/Hamp ewes that I bred to a Texel Ram. The resulting lambs are all beautiful and appear to be very healthy and growing fast. We have 3 ewe lambs and 3 boys. The 3 ewe lambs all appear to have what looks like a milk goiter (used to have goats so I am familiar with what it looks like) which is strange because I have read that it doesn't happen in wooled breeds of sheep. Like I said they are really healthy lambs and have given me no other reason to be concerned. they range from 1 month in age to 2 weeks. (we had a really late lambing season) The weather has gotten nicer here so and so they are all out on pasture with their mommas. Nursing well. I can take a pic if anyone wants to see. The swelling really isn't in the jaw at all so I don't think it is bottle jaw either. Thanks of any help.


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## Von Helman (May 16, 2012)

tanya2873 said:


> I have some Suffolk and Suffolk/Hamp ewes that I bred to a Texel Ram. The resulting lambs are all beautiful and appear to be very healthy and growing fast. We have 3 ewe lambs and 3 boys. The 3 ewe lambs all appear to have what looks like a milk goiter (used to have goats so I am familiar with what it looks like) which is strange because I have read that it doesn't happen in wooled breeds of sheep. Like I said they are really healthy lambs and have given me no other reason to be concerned. they range from 1 month in age to 2 weeks. (we had a really late lambing season) The weather has gotten nicer here so and so they are all out on pasture with their mommas. Nursing well. I can take a pic if anyone wants to see. The swelling really isn't in the jaw at all so I don't think it is bottle jaw either. Thanks of any help.


Hey Welcome to the board! 

If you can please post a few pictures so we can see both the animals and the issues you're referring to so we can better help you. 

I've learned that anything is possible and I keep getting such reminders to prove it.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Are your sheep getting loose salt or blocks?


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## tanya2873 (Feb 13, 2014)

Yes they get regular minerals however I have noticed that the ewes have been consuming more lately. I will take some pics and post them


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## tanya2873 (Feb 13, 2014)

This one is the least severe and is a single 














Got a couple angles on this one she is also a single. 







This one tho it is hard to tell it probably the most severe looking. She is a twin but her momma has a lot of milk. 

I was able to palpate one of them and they are soft and just feel like swollen glands. 

I have noticed that the boys have some slight thickening of their necks as well. Just not to the degree the ewe lambs do. 

Hope that helps.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I meant iodized salt alone not the mineral supp. Have to taken temps?


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## Von Helman (May 16, 2012)

Often times our sheep get similar puss filled growths in the same area and while I don't know the technical term for these puss growths we apply a special medicated (thick yellow colored rub) that helps to reduce the swelling and eventually eliminates them. Sometimes if they are large like yours we take a knife and slice it enough to open it and then squeeze the thick puss out. Sometimes these growths are all puss and a lot of that nasty puss comes out. 

Without being there and actually seeing it and feeling its hard to say. That and I don't want to give any real medical advice since I am not a licensed vet but maybe someone else can chime in and give their suggestions or advice. 

If nobody responds by tomorrow I'll show this image to my worker who is a Vet and see what he says. :thumb:


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## tanya2873 (Feb 13, 2014)

No Ross but I can. In my experience an animal with a fever acts sick. But it's definitely worth a check. And no I haven't been giving them table salt but I can add some. I will check to see if they add iodine to the loose sheep salts I get first.


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## tanya2873 (Feb 13, 2014)

Von Helman. I have heard of that too. That's why I felt them. You would think an abscess would be hard and warm. Right?


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## tanya2873 (Feb 13, 2014)

Also the mommas have all been vaccinated last year but I didn't vaccinate 30 days before they were due like I have read. I'm vaccinating them all at 4 weeks tho. And these swollen glands showed up before I vaccinated.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

There's a nasty glandular disease caseous Lymphadenitis (sp) that if they have it they have it for their shortened life and you cull aggressively. You can test for it but the last thing you do is lance it without isolating the animals and removing the secretion. (burning the puss is best) There is a vaccine Case Bac but of course the animals will test positive after getting it! 

Animal grade loose salt should be iodized. It is here at least. I ran into that problem a few years ago. Not quite those symptoms though.


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## tanya2873 (Feb 13, 2014)

I sure hope not Ross because I would have to cull my whole herd!!! I read about that as well. Did you have to cull yours? Would the ram have some gene to cause it? Or is it just something they pick up?


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## Von Helman (May 16, 2012)

tanya2873 said:


> Von Helman. I have heard of that too. That's why I felt them. You would think an abscess would be hard and warm. Right?


 Well if they are eating normally and the growth as you say is not hard but more liquid like then more than likely its some sort of an infection. We get that too on multiple animals at the same time. I cannot give medical advice but if they were mine Id probably give them an injection of Penicillin and rub some medicated yellow cream on it and see what happens after a day or two. 

If they turn hard and are firm and its like a thickness underneath the skin then if they were mine Id consider making a small puncture and seeing if the puss comes out. Those growths with the puss can be uncomfortable to the animals. 

While they are abscesses I wasn't sure if there is a technical name for the ones sheep regularly get on / around their neck and the facial area. I'm like Jethro Bodine with an 8th grade education in that area so I'm just not very versed with the technical terms of a lot of that sort of stuff.


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## tanya2873 (Feb 13, 2014)

It really does look like a "milk goiter" though doesn't it?


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

To clarify I had an iodine def in lambs not CL I kinda doubt it's CL but you treat all Puss as if it was. It (the bacteria CL) persists in the soil for years! I agree its most likely a lessor infection. Any sheep can be a carrier and symptom free btw. Test all, cull positives and vaccinate to stay free.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I had weak lambs and DOA at birth, no swellings but I agree its a possibility!


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## tanya2873 (Feb 13, 2014)

Well I was wanting to start creep feeding them but I was kind of holding off until I could figure out what they have. Maybe I should give them all an antibiotic first?


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## tanya2873 (Feb 13, 2014)

And how do you test for CL? Call the vet?


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## Von Helman (May 16, 2012)

tanya2873 said:


> No Ross but I can. In my experience an animal with a fever acts sick. But it's definitely worth a check. And no I haven't been giving them table salt but I can add some. I will check to see if they add iodine to the loose sheep salts I get first.



We use red Iodized feed salt which we pour over the top of our Molasses lick Tub. The Tub contains minerals and Molasses and after the sheep lick the salt gone they then nibble on the mineral mix below. Each day I just add just enough salt to the top of the tub for the sheep and presto. 



Some might argue the molasses mineral tubs are more expensive but I like them and I am able to then use the plastic tubs for little feed tubs for lambs or other such uses around the corral. 



That and they are easy to use, but they do require me to clean them off each day as the sheep always find a way to poop in it. I use a small brush and simply tilt it up-right and brush anything out, then I lay it back down, add the salt on top and when the sheep return its ready for them to eat the salt. 



I use the small red one pictured on the bottom right as I find it works the best for its size and weight. I strongly recommend you having this and the salt for your sheep. They need it!


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I have wooled sheep. Have had a long time. News to me that wooled sheep don't get milk goiters. Lambs out of my best ewes will look just like that. Will go away when they start eating more solid food and the ewes gradually wean them. Maybe it's an issue with wooled sheep that don't give enough milk that don't have lambs with milk goiters.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

CL? Seriously.? I can't believe nobody has ever seen a milk necked lamb. Nothing that you can give them will make that go away, from what I understand it is not really a conventional goiter as in lack of iodine, it is just a milk goiter, and your best lambs will have it, and all the other lambs will wish they did. Or at least you will wish they did, come market day, when they all hit the scale.


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## tanya2873 (Feb 13, 2014)

Thank you barnbilder that makes me feel better. Like I said I have had goats before with it and it looks just like it but all the info online was pretty specific when they said it only happens in haired sheep!!?? But I really do appreciate everyone's responses. I just hate medicating an animal that seems completely healthy otherwise. I was kind of stumped. We raised sheep when I was a kid but this is the first time I have attempted it on my own so I don't want to screw it up! I will just keep an eye on them and I will update the thread if anything else develops. Just for reference sake.


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## tanya2873 (Feb 13, 2014)

Von Helman - I have used those before for my goats and cattle but I hadn't thought of using them for the sheep. Didn't even check if they made one with our copper. I like them. I will get one for the summer. Thanks for all your help and input.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Problem is you don't see milk goiter in wool sheep. Not impossible but I wouldn't assume its that and wash my hands of it. So what is it for sure? Typical iodine def doesn't present like that either. So what is it? CL lumps are (almost always) found in mature sheep so what is it? Possibly an infection? Not acting sick either. No i wouldn't pound in antibiotics I would get in a vet to confirm what it is. We know there's a salt/iodine availability question. If you want to guess, yeah it looks like milk goiter.


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## Von Helman (May 16, 2012)

barnbilder said:


> CL? Seriously.? *I can't believe nobody has ever seen a milk necked lamb*. Nothing that you can give them will make that go away, from what I understand it is not really a conventional goiter as in lack of iodine, it is just a milk goiter, and your best lambs will have it, and all the other lambs will wish they did. Or at least you will wish they did, come market day, when they all hit the scale.



Well I haven't. But then again I haven't been exposed to very many different breeds of sheep and none of the lambs Iâve ever seen ever had a milk goiter. You learn something new each day and thatâs why I never claim to be any expert. As I said if it were mine and it had a lump I wasnât sure about Iâd first have to feel it to get an idea of what it felt like and then go from there


@ barnbilder


Will you share with us a little more information on this *milk necked lamb* thing so we can all learn a little more since this seemed to stump even me. Iâd surly appreciate it as I have never come across it before. 
​


@Ross, 



I have no problem shooting up the sheep with a little penicillin or vitamin shots when we detect anything out of the norm because Iâd rather error on the side of caution and giving such shots doesnât hurt the animal at all but can only help them if there is an issue. Then we wait to see what happens or if the animal gets better. Often times thereâs not much else you can do if itâs sick other than inject it, watch it, and hope for the best. 
​


Chalk this thread up to having learned something new!


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I have had hundreds of lambs with this. I have even seen it in calves, but not as obvious or as often. It always happens in your best animals, out of your best females. It is a product of having an unfettered supply of milk. I think it goes farther than this, I think it is a product of the animals skin. Animals with loose, fine skin, are more prone. This is a trait of milkiness. So not only is the ewe giving plenty of milk, she is giving her nice skin to her offspring, genetically predisposing it to milk goiter as well as being a good milker.

It is not surprising that milk goiter is not often seen these days, I see a lot of sheep that couldn't put a milk goiter on a lamb. I lamb outside in whatever weather, I check my sheep once a day, very rarely do I have to help. The key to unlocking mothering instincts is an udder that makes a ewe care about finding something to relieve it. The more milk, within reason, the better the mother, the less need for lambing jugs and intervention. You can have too much milk, but usually it is just a poorly shaped udder, and not actually too much milk. You need lambs that jump up off the ground as soon as they are born, too, but milk is really important. Some of these sawhorse shaped show sheep don't have it. The people raising them never miss it, because they have creep feed everywhere, they give a pittance of milk for two weeks, and then gradually wean their lambs onto free choice show ration. So no milk goiters seen by the people who write books and call out vets.


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## tanya2873 (Feb 13, 2014)

Makes sense @barnbilder. What's really impressive then is that 2 of the lambs I pictured came from yearling ewe mothers. Haven't creep fed yet and they look really slick. I did have to assist 2 ewes this year. One had breech twins and the other had her lamb elbow locked. But no deaths so we are fortunate. Just raising them so the kids can show them at the fair. No one around here has Texels so I'm hoping they do better than the market lambs we bought last. The competition is fierce at the fair here. But thank you for all the good info. I've always believed it better for them to stay on mom as long as possible. The moms know when to wean them.


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## BlueHen (Jul 25, 2014)

All of our biggest, fattest, healthiest ram lambs get milk goiter/neck. 

I cannot believe anyone would possibly even come close to considering this to be CL.

ETA: I have a Lamancha/Nubian cross kid that is 7w old also with a nice soft milk goiter on his neck. His Momma clearly feeds him well.


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## Waiting Falcon (Nov 25, 2010)

Right and they usually go away their own in a few months after they are weaned.
Those are healthy looking lambs ,well fed!


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## Von Helman (May 16, 2012)

barnbilder said:


> It is not surprising that milk goiter is not often seen these days, I see a lot of sheep that couldn't put a milk goiter on a lamb.


 [FONT=&quot]Well that would go to why some people like me are not familiar with them. Like I said I have never seen a milk goiter before but I run mostly Suffolk. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Iâm of the mind that spending the extra money on building a quality herd with proper feed and care will make the ewes better for milk production. In time I hope my theory (and my work) will pay off. Maybe if Iâm lucky Iâll be able to see a milk goiter on one of my animals one day, and just maybe if my theory exceeds all expectations I'll see 2-3 milk goiters on my lambs  Ok not really but you get the idea! 
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Like you we also lamb outside and the motherâs instinct will either take her inside the pole barn or she just lambs out in the open corral. If sheâs in the pasture then she births in the open pasture. The lambs might not be able to walk as fast but for the most part they get up and are ready to go. Of course we leave them in the corral for 3-4 days after they birth so they have a few days to get acclimated and can milk. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Some of the ewes have large udders while some do not but most of the mothers give decent milk. We do not use creep or other such stuff and just let the lambâs milk and wean naturally. Today we separated 16 young ewe lambs that are about 3-4 months old so they wonât milk as they are really too big and too much for their mothers at their size. Also so the mothers have a chance to fatten up. 
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Here is a picture I took this morning of 15 ewe lambs we separated. They are all 3-4 months old now. As you can see ewe #19 which is 4 months old had a mother that was a cross with a Dorper and thus why it has a spotted head and legs. I'm trying to clean my herd and get back to all pure Suffolk but none of them have milk goiters that I know of. 

 [/FONT] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]




BlueHen said:


> All of our biggest, fattest, healthiest ram lambs get milk goiter/neck.


 Yes but what breed are you running? Itâs been mentioned such a milk goiter is not found in Suffolk so maybe this is why I have no experience with it (yet  ) 




BlueHen said:


> I cannot believe anyone would possibly even come close to considering this to be CL.


 Why not? In any medical situation you run down the list of ALL possibilities and start to remove each one that doesnât apply until you determine what the problem is. I wouldnât fault someone for suggesting it might be CL because if itâs in the glands or in the throat and thatâs where CL is located then why not at least consider that as a possibility? Its also a teaching moment. Again I learned something new in this thread and for that I'm thankful. [FONT=&quot][/FONT]


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## BlueHen (Jul 25, 2014)

Von Helman said:


> [FONT=&quot]Well that would go to why some people like me are not familiar with them. Like I said I have never seen a milk goiter before but I run mostly Suffolk. [/FONT]
> [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
> [FONT=&quot]Iâm of the mind that spending the extra money on building a quality herd with proper feed and care will make the ewes better for milk production. In time I hope my theory (and my work) will pay off. Maybe if Iâm lucky Iâll be able to see a milk goiter on one of my animals one day, and just maybe if my theory exceeds all expectations I'll see 2-3 milk goiters on my lambs  Ok not really but you get the idea!
> [/FONT]
> ...


We have Dorpers.

Yes you are absolutely correct, I should have not have said that or worded it like I did. To me, it was obvious because milk goiters are very common for our lambs. I knew exactly what that was when I looked at the pictures. Add to that--I just saw my first case of CL in our "neighbors" Suffolk sheep and I am on edge because of that. Milk goiters look like nothing even close to the CL I saw! :yuck:


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## Von Helman (May 16, 2012)

BlueHen said:


> We have Dorpers.
> 
> Yes you are absolutely correct, I should have not have said that or worded it like I did. To me, it was obvious because milk goiters are very common for our lambs. I knew exactly what that was when I looked at the pictures. Add to that--I just saw my first case of CL in our "neighbors" Suffolk sheep and I am on edge because of that. Milk goiters look like nothing even close to the CL I saw! :yuck:



Hey we all have those days when we say or word things differently than we intended so you get a pass (at least from me). 

I have never seen CL or a milk goiter in person so they were both new to me. I'll take seeing a Milk Goiter over CL any day!  

There are some breeds around that get milk goiter but I have not seen it myself up close nor while at other sheep farms have I stopped to look or ask. My worker today looked at the image and said he has seen a few milk goiters too but not in our herd or around here. 

Anyone have any pictures of CL? 

Thanks..


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I have never though of suffolks as a particularly milky breed, overall. Good carcass traits, good for crossing, if they don't throw lambs that are too big. Your suffolks are nice looking to me, as far as suffolks go. Good functional look to them. I run Dorsets with just a little touch of Finn. They deliver in the milk department, sometimes too good.


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## Von Helman (May 16, 2012)

barnbilder said:


> I have never though of suffolks as a particularly milky breed, overall. Good carcass traits, good for crossing, if they don't throw lambs that are too big. Your suffolks are nice looking to me, as far as suffolks go. Good functional look to them. I run Dorsets with just a little touch of Finn. They deliver in the milk department, sometimes too good.



Yea I don't think they are a milky breed either but rather just a very full body sheep thats good for meat production. They do throw large lambs at times and we've had lambs so large that they couldn't birth and we lost both the lamb and the mother but thats rare. As they say, S**t happens 

I just really like the look of our Suffolks over other sheep breeds in our region.


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## tanya2873 (Feb 13, 2014)

I got my huge Suffolk ewe from a local breeder that used to be a vet and worked at a local university to help eradicate scrapies. Smart woman. She has been breeding her Suffolks with the sole purpose of increased milk production. She has a touch of some other breed that is supposed to be good milk producer. The third lamb I pictured was one of her twins. And she does have huge udders.


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## tanya2873 (Feb 13, 2014)

Also on a side note had a bit of a surprise waiting this morning from another of our yearling ewes.









Have one more yearling ewe that could possibly lamb. We will see.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I only brought up CL because you do not Lance wounds without considering spreading disease and yes lambs can carry the disease symptom free. I also said in a following post I thought the kumps were a lesser infection.


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## tanya2873 (Feb 13, 2014)

Update: lambs are all still doing well. Had our last lamb the end of April. Her and and the one pictured above are showing the same "swollen gland" like look. I wonder if it is a texel trait or something. Lambs are growing awesome. Kids had first weigh in on the 12th and all the lambs were 45 days or less. And all but 1 were 60lb +. So that seems pretty good.


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## Willowdale (Mar 19, 2007)

CL (caseus lympadenitis) abcesses are hard lumps. If these are puffy areas all over that region of the neck it isn't CL. It looks like milk goiter to me, at least I've had perfectly healthy lambs from heavy milking mothers that looked pretty much like that. I thought it was bottle jaw when I first saw it.

If you had CL you would want to treat the pus as a serious biohazard. Either cull the sheep or remove it permanently from where you keep the rest of your flock. The abcess isn't contagious until it bursts. The pus contains a bacteria that can live in the environment for many months. Other sheep will get it from a puncture in their skin, or inhaling it from infected dust. 

There's a CL vaccine as Ross says above. Some folks don't want to use it because then the sheep will test positive, but the risk of loss is so great I disagree. Vaccinate and keep a record of the vaccination. It should be considered a plus, not a minus. I think the stigma of CL is preventing folks from vaccinating, and that's just allowing CL to continue to spread around and be a problem when if everyone vaccinated it would die out.

Anyway, the blood test for CL gives a false negative a lot of times, so a negative blood test shouldn't give anyone a sense of safety. I bought some ewes that blood tested negative for CL and soon showed abcesses. I isolated them before the abcesses burst but it was a close call.

Bottom line: that looks like perfectly benign milk goiter, and in other news please don't hesitate to vaccinate against CL!


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