# Comfort in a Post-Modern Age



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

You hear a lot in survival circles about comfort. The discussions talk around comfort foods, comfort fire or hearth, comfortable household belongings, and last but not least a comfortable house. 

Comfort seems to be highly relative to culture. Other civilizations and peoples in various other times made do without upholstered furniture and indeed never seemed to feel the lack. Sleeping sprawled out in a patch of straw seems to be the norm for large portions of today's population, while here in America we take mattress purchases to a whole new level. 

Look around your house today and start thinking about those comfort items which you will be making do without in the future, as well as those which you may have never realized actually have no point. 

I leave you with the words of George Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, the German philosopher who said, "the need for greater 'comfort' does not arise within us, but is suggested to you by those who hope to make a profit from its creation."


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

Ernie - I think it is relative not so much as to culture, but to expectation in life as well. 

Bottom line is that those who have things like mattresses, well balanced meals, soaps to clean their hair and bodies and those other "useless" things live longer. 

They recover from stress, illness and injury better.
They maintain wellness.
They grow under more optimal conditions and therefore are stronger, more resilient, smarter and more likely to survive bad moments.

So many people nowadays on here are taking a very negative light and it confuses me. It isn't just about having another day to breath and eat. It is also about living with the expectation that the next day will be a little better.

Keep in mind that the human body was meant to last between 30 and 35 years as it is. 

A good mattress alone is probably responsible for quite a few of those extra years.


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## Illini (Apr 13, 2009)

Does Survival and Emergency Preparedness now require posters to pass a "more-Spartan-than-thou" test? It is certainly possible to strip life of every last shred of comfort and joy and even hope. Whether such a life is worth living is for each individual to decide.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

The main reason for prepping, IMHO, is not just to keep my head above water, but to be on high ground. In other words, I do prep a lot of beans and rice, but I have meat, spices, veggies and CHOCOLATE too!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I'm really curious why you take a sociological viewpoint against needless material comforts and act like you're being attacked personally. Is it the subject matter that bothers you all, or the bearer?

I'm sitting here on an upholstered chair typing this, sipping a cup of coffee, and in a heated home (not a mud hut). If you've got a splinter in your eye, I have a beam in mine. I'm less Spartan than others, however I do concede that there are many, MANY material comforts in my life which not only fail to provide me any pleasure, but actually inconvenience me as well. 

I've started to notice the differences between those needless material comforts and real comfort in my own life, partly through contact with some heroic influences, and I'm encouraging others to do the same.


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

I don't think Ernie is suggesting that we all abandon "comfort" items. Rather that we consider what we might have to do without and prioritize what things we might spend our time/energy on preserving in a TEOTWAWKI situation. Personally, I hope to "bug-in" and therefore continue to enjoy many comfort items mentioned like a good bed and woodstove. I have thought a great deal about life without electricity, and we're working towards being able to function without it - life certainly may not be as comfortable, but could be more satisfying. For example, it's might nice to have the electric well pump pressurize the household water system. If the grid goes down, I'll have to yank the pump and use a well bucket - won't be nearly as nice and comfortable (especially in NEOhio winters) but who knows - maybe we'll find it to be satisfying to provide for our water this way just as it's satisfying to provide our heat with wood that we harvested and processed. Anyway, if the events that we talk of here do come to fruition I'll be relying upon the Lord and hope to be like Paul ... "I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound"


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

For my family, I try to prep for the necessities as well as the comfort items. In the event of an emergency, I'd rather have things remain as close to normal for us while we figure things out based on the emergency. I stock chocolate because it will help me to keep an even keel and make things a bit more pleasant for everyone involved.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Voluntarily stepping a few rungs down the comfort ladder today will likely set you up to be able to sustainably live like a king, comparatively speaking, in the event your area, or the entire nation is required to take a major humbling.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

Hey, Ernie, what's wrong with a mud hut?

My dream is to live in a mud hut ... a minimalistic, voluntarily simplistic lifestyle in a mini-village of mud huts, actually.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Illini said:


> Does Survival and Emergency Preparedness now require posters to pass a "more-Spartan-than-thou" test? It is certainly possible to strip life of every last shred of comfort and joy and even hope. Whether such a life is worth living is for each individual to decide.


No, no new requirements.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Forerunner said:


> Voluntarily stepping a few rungs down the comfort ladder today will likely set you up to be able to sustainably live like a king, comparatively speaking, in the event your area, or the entire nation is required to take a major humbling.


But this sure would not hurt any of us. Then we'll be better ready in case something happens that throws a kink in our current life-style.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

I know that to most people today, the GD seems a world away. I was born in a coal miner's cabin (aka shack) in Alabama in 1952. These pictures are very like what I saw around me when I was very young. If you check the mortality schedule, it was pretty dismal. I may not live in the lap of luxury, but I would rather not live like that any more.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

People can choose to let circumstances dictate their outlook, or, they can choose to let their outlook dictate their outlook.
I choose to be a positive influence, and, despite the continual punches in the stomach that life can deliver, I choose to make the best of where I am, who I am with, and whatever I might find laying about that I might be able to use to make someone else
comfortable for a day. I don't care if I live to see tomorrow. I don't mind if I live another 50 years. It seems that some sort of quality of life expectancy has overshadowed our purpose to face whatever life gives us in the best possible way.
Cradle to grave comfort and convenience has done nothing but create a nation full of ignorant and dependent drones. Give me a challenge, and the freedom to meet it, every time.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

_Give me a challenge, and the freedom to meet it, every time. _ - Forerunner

love, Love, LOVE IT!​
:clap:


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## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

Me, I've already started cutting out the uselessness in my life, and my wife agrees with the same philosophy. We wake up on a cold winter morning, not to the sound of the magical heat pump and furnace unit running (sucking dollars through the electric meter), but to the sound of nothingness. In the dead of winter this house can cool to 55 degree's or less, if I decide to lay in bed too late in the morning... Heating solely with wood has been a great decision and one that has saved us boatloads of money for the past three years.

That's but one example of cutting back we have done, believe me... By next winter we will be cooking all of our meals on a wood cook stove once again, and enjoying every minute of it. If the coffee maker quits, why waste money on a new one... i can always use the old peculator. In this economy I wouldn't replace anything unless the replacement is of good old fashioned quality, something that will last a lifetime.

Chances are... I have much less stress in my life than people with monthly payments on the latest, greatest magic foam mattress and the upside down car payment book. I'm sorry but America is in the middle of a wake-up call... The excesses of living in debt to have the latest greatest creature comforts are coming home to roost... A good majority of those living on unemployment checks right now are going to start whining once they run out, because they didn't think to put up one red cent of any earnings... Being that we have an unemployment check coming in like so many friends and neighbors, I have noticed most continue tripping to Wally world and buying like there is no tomorrow.

Trust me, the Gloom and Doomers in this forum are really just folks mildly stating an obvious truth. Those that call it gloomy and doomy probably still have sand filled eyes from poking their heads in the ground.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

No Ernie, certainly I wasn't taking it personally. It's just that the tone here for many posts and many posters is starting to be more "down" and pessimistic lately. And not entirely for useful reasons at times. Merely simply to point out failure, or somehow be..well, negative.

To a person in aboriginal Borneo living in a grass hut, the possession of a mud hut may seem extravagant.

To a person in a mud hut, living in a stone shelter like in the rural middle east may seem extravagant.

To a person in the stone shelter, living in a small American shack without power, but with a metal roof and a porch, with a well nearby may seem extravagant.

We could go on, up to the mobile home with power hookups and water, to the small old house with first time owners desperately trying to find the money to restore it, to the suburban home, to the brownstone in town, to the palatial residences that seem to hover outside of major towns to the trump tower.

Each one truly thinking how extravagant the next one up is and each one decrying that the next level up will only breed 'useless' and skill-less and lazy people.

Is it true? No. It isn't. 

Whether or not I'm on that sagging old mattress I had for the first 10 years I was on my own that I got as a freebie or the handmade one I have now, I'm still the same person and just as capable.

And so is everyone else. We are what we were made to be by our parents, our early lives and then what we managed to overcome to become what made us happy later on. Rose and I and many others out there could have gone a very different way. Our upbringing didn't bring us permanently down. 

And those who have received love and care and material goods aren't specifically ruined by that either. People who received materially fine lives have grown up to become great explorers who traversed the wilds of the north in search of the Northwest passage. They crossed the great oceans and landed on a land of endless and unpassable forests...and cut a life from it. They became great leaders in the field and lived there for years as well.

These cut and dried statements of the worthlessness of everyone just don't work. We are who we choose to become...whether we sleep on a mattress or no.

And assuming that anyone who has anything nice is somehow irresponsible? How? I pay cash for everything (or directly from my checkbook) so why shouldn't I have a decent bed? I use old fashioned things, but if I wanted to buy a better quality one, why shouldn't I? ::shakes head:: Not everyone is paying for previous bad choices. Not everyone didn't save. Not everyone is currently jobless. I'm doing well and I'm not going to live in a tent in my backyard to gain approval.


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## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

> And assuming that anyone who has anything nice is somehow irresponsible? How? I pay cash for everything (or directly from my checkbook) so why shouldn't I have a decent bed? I use old fashioned things, but if I wanted to buy a better quality one, why shouldn't I? ::shakes head:: Not everyone is paying for previous bad choices. Not everyone didn't save. Not everyone is currently jobless. I'm doing well and I'm not going to live in a tent in my backyard to gain approval.


Living in debt to have these things are where people have gone wrong... Paying with cash keeps you free from burdens you can't afford when things go wrong. If you can afford it and are comfortable with it.... Good for you, you deserve it... You truly do!

I think living outside one's means is what everyone is talking about in most cases on these forums... And the content of Ernie's message wasn't about trying to shame anyone (at least not the way I read it) It to me was about living differently when the scenario of life changes, what creature comforts are we able to live without.

And besides, I don't think anyone wants to live in a tent, if things were than bad, they probably repossessed the back yard when they took the house


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

Ernie said:


> I'm sitting here on an upholstered chair typing this, sipping a cup of coffee, and in a heated home (not a mud hut).


I'm sitting in a plain folding chair (the same type we've been using for close to 30 years), also sipping my coffee in a wood heated log cabin. Wood is our only source of heat. 

We live simply by choice. If the SHTF I'll miss the Internet (& all you guys), hot showers, & my coffee, but a lot will stay the same for us. 

Years ago I read this about Diogenes: 

"If you would learn to flatter the king," said a friend of Diogenes, "you would not have to eat lentils." And Diogenes replied, "If you would learn to eat lentils you would not have to flatter the king."

I've never been good at flattering kings.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

I think comfort is essential to surviving in a post-modern age. I know I make much better decisions when I am comfortable, fed, and have a good shelter. In this country it takes very little money to live comfortably because so many people throw away perfectly good things. My upholstered furniture cost me nothing, my large collection of blankets also cost me nothing. In this day and age when comfort is available for next to nothing why suffer?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Well, a few of you get it. I'll try to clarify for the rest.

There are a certain number of "comforts" in our lives which are suggested to us simply by virtue of us being alive in this modern age. They serve no purpose other than in conspicuous consumption or possibly because we believe we need them.

One example I would like to hold up is the proliferance of "energy drinks". They are EVERYWHERE now. Grocery stores, health-food stores, gas stations, etc. These drinks are really little more than an array of sugars (simple and complex) in a fancy can. Were people really walking around before the past few years and the rise of the energy drink all depleted of energy and about to fall down? How did we manage to find the energy to colonize America, fight two world wars, and build up the infrastructure necessary to deliver those energy drinks WITHOUT the energy drinks? Energy comes from healthful food, not from a can. 

That's one example of a frivolous luxury which seems to hold no purpose other than to suck income out of your wallet. In my first message, I was inviting you to think of other examples, not taking a whack at anyone. Clearly some of you have issues outside of the context of this posting that you've decided to take out on me.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Part of the quandry of civilization is that to have it - you have to progress. Part of that progression is in material things. One of the questions would be 'how much is enough?' and another "how do you stop a culture from progressing in material accumulation?" Has a culture ever survived that had an answer to that?


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

Sorry, Ernie, didn't mean to take a whack atcha. 

Don't have many luxuries here. Just glad to have the basics.


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Well, a few of you get it. I'll try to clarify for the rest.
> 
> There are a certain number of "comforts" in our lives which are suggested to us simply by virtue of us being alive in this modern age. They serve no purpose other than in conspicuous consumption or possibly because we believe we need them.


There are a lot of things that existed in the past that served no real purpose other than conspicuous consumption. Alcohol (beyond the realm of medicinal use) and tobacco come to mind. They are no different than the energy drinks or other such consumables of today that have no real edible value. 

There are a lot of things I enjoy today that I know would not be available in a post modern world. I think that there is a somewhat likely possibility that I may live a good portion of my life in a post modern world. I live simply in preparation of it but I won't stop enjoying listening to music on an Ipod now or stop going to see a movie because it may not exist later. I like being able to turn on a light (I lived 6 months without electric lighting) and having a well lit room. I have chopped down quite a few trees with an axe but as long as I can afford gas for my chainsaw I'll use it. 

If it's affordable I'll enjoy it while I can, once frivolous luxuries become expensive or not available I'll adapt and suspect most other people will do the same.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Seems like it all goes back to knowledge to survive if things change. And then the mind set to be content with it, even if not so happy with conditions.

Not to give up today, if living within your means; but be aware of the possible tomorrows/


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

ChristyACB said:


> Keep in mind that the human body was meant to last between 30 and 35 years as it is.


i don't know that i believe that. 

i think that in europe, the peasants that were treated at chattel (movable property, ie, virtual slaves), then they were used to short lives due to the way they were treated. 30-35 yrs was probably average for those peasants.

in other areas of the world, where free people lived without being enslaved in one way or another by elites, they lived much longer than that. eg, the hunza, okinawans, among other groups, regularly have a decent percentage of the population live to 100+.

as i noted on another thread, there was a research project done to determine what were the similarities between the various long-lived people. a 20 minute presentation was done summarizing the results, which is very interesting. 

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showpost.php?p=4241031&postcount=34


> http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_buettner_how_to_live_to_be_100.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


some of the habits of long-lived people are a healthy diet low in sugars and fats, eaten in moderate quantities, and regular moderate exercise that was part of their life, not an "exercise regime." eg, one of their examples was the okanawans, which sit on the floor, and so even the elderly get up and sit down many times during the day, each time getting a little bit of exercise. they don't set aside 20 minutes a day to run on a treadmill, they just get simple exercise in their life from the way they live, walking, gardening, etc.

i think the US/western diet is killing us -- too much fat, too little nutrition in highly processed food, too many preservatives, and too little exercise for most people. and trying to "bolt on" an exercise regime, instead of including it naturally in life, makes it more difficult. think of all the people that drive their car to local gym, wait in their car for someone else to leave to get a closer parking spot to save themselves an extra 75 ft walk, always take the elevator, etc. all these "comforts" are in fact killing us, albeit slowly.

i've read accounts of westerners visiting india in the himalayas, and suited up with parkas, heavy hiking boots, and being passed by a simple monk walking barefoot in the snow wearing only a thin robe.

much of our "comfort" is more status symbol than actual need. i've stayed in nice hotels (eg, marriott) for business, and i've stayed in european youth hostels when travelling on my own nickel. with the exception of 1-2 places that had sagging mattresses that gave me a bit of a backache, i never slept poorly due to the mattress in youth hostels vs nice hotels.

of course, everyone has their own sensitivies too. i can't really sleep well unless i'm flat, so even in a business class seat i can't sleep because it doesn't fully recline. but i sleep fine in a european train on a couchette, which is flat, albeit with little padding and not much width. each person will have a different list of things that are a problem, and things that are not a problem.

--sgl


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## tamilee (Apr 13, 2005)

Ernie said:


> You hear a lot in survival circles about comfort. The discussions talk around comfort foods, comfort fire or hearth, comfortable household belongings, and last but not least a comfortable house.
> 
> Comfort seems to be highly relative to culture. Other civilizations and peoples in various other times made do without upholstered furniture and indeed never seemed to feel the lack. Sleeping sprawled out in a patch of straw seems to be the norm for large portions of today's population, while here in America we take mattress purchases to a whole new level.
> 
> ...


Well said. Due to horrible joint pain that could NOT be relieved by modern mattresses that promised comfort, I began sleeping on the floor atop a folded sleeping bag. I was surprised to find that within 2 weeks my joint pain had gone completely. No more back pain, knee pain or neck pain that those pricey mattresses claimed to relieve but did not. 
With the cooler temps I found the need to be off the floor a bit. I began studying what people of traditional societies slept on. I opted for a heavy dense futon mattress, which I have on the floor. I am sleeping better on this than I have on anything else. Lesson learned? Being a conformist is not only pricey but can be painful as well.


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## tamilee (Apr 13, 2005)

wvstuck said:


> Me, I've already started cutting out the uselessness in my life, and my wife agrees with the same philosophy. We wake up on a cold winter morning, not to the sound of the magical heat pump and furnace unit running (sucking dollars through the electric meter), but to the sound of nothingness. In the dead of winter this house can cool to 55 degree's or less, if I decide to lay in bed too late in the morning... Heating solely with wood has been a great decision and one that has saved us boatloads of money for the past three years.
> 
> That's but one example of cutting back we have done, believe me... By next winter we will be cooking all of our meals on a wood cook stove once again, and enjoying every minute of it. If the coffee maker quits, why waste money on a new one... i can always use the old peculator. In this economy I wouldn't replace anything unless the replacement is of good old fashioned quality, something that will last a lifetime.
> 
> ...


WV we espouse the same point of view . My dh and I are also cutting back. We ditched the pricey cell phones with the all inclusive monthly plans. We cut the cable tv. I got a Lehman's hand washer after the water pump went out AGAIN on the electric one. The clothes dryer is gone. The clothes line and folding floor dryer will suffice. That big energy hogging stylish refrigerator is out and was replaced by a smaller one that uses a fraction of the electricity. The dishwasher was yanked out and given away. The propnae tank went back to the propane vendors. We now heat with wood full time. The electric lights are going later this year and will be replaced with oil lamps. We are cutting out those things we thought we had to have because everyone else has them. Our goal is not partake of conspicuous consumption but to live a simple quiet peaceful life and to live it well within our means.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

There we go. Now we're back where I had tried to go. I guess that's the problem with the internet as a communication tool as opposed to a shared cup of coffee around a table.

Luxury versus need IS a very old conversation. Adam Smith even concluded that an economy simply cannot progress unless man desires beyond his basic needs, simply because those basic needs are so easy to acquire. The driving engine in his mind was the desire for wealth in order to show it off. He said, "the chief enjoyment in riches is the parade of riches."

From the book I'm reading now, (_The Ends of Life: Roads to Fulfillment in Early Modern England)_, this is something that has plagued Western man since at least medieval times, which is the earliest our civilization has writings on the topic. If I were more familiar with Eastern literature I might be able to go further back with other examples. 

A certain level of luxuries will be easy to satisfy in a post-modern time. A pail of fresh-picked berries. Cream straight from the cow. Warmth against the cold winter. The sight of children playing in a spring meadow. What level of world collapse could ever take those away from me? The iPod, the internet, Starbucks coffee, or strawberries in February .... those are the at-risk luxuries.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

tamilee - while doing all that, do you sew and knit for your clothing? Or just the thrift stores? Read books and what do you do for news, other than internet? Are either of you working at what would be considered a 'regular' job setting? How do you accomodate that?


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## tamilee (Apr 13, 2005)

I work, but in a non-traditional setting from my home. My husband is an artist and is semi-retired. I do buy my clothes, on sale. One year I buy shirts to make a certain number the next I buy jeans. 
News, I watch it on the net as part of my job. Yup, I get paid to watch the news and discuss it with the person i am teaching.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

tamilee said:


> I work, but in a non-traditional setting from my home. My husband is an artist and is semi-retired. I do buy my clothes, on sale. One year I buy shirts to make a certain number the next I buy jeans.
> News, I watch it on the net as part of my job. Yup, I get paid to watch the news and discuss it with the person i am teaching.


Thanks for the info. 

Good that you get paid to Net and discuss.


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## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

Tamilee,

Rock on.... Some people don't understand where the wife and are are headed... We had to put cutting the electric off for a while as we are adopting two children. We both sew, she can knit and crochet, I can't knit but do crochet... We are looking for a good loom for a good price so that we can loom our own fabrics. We raise out own food in the garden and have plenty of meat and eggs in the barn. Too bad we aren't neighbors... I often dream of living on a very large parcel of land with neighbors over equal minds. I am always looking for tool from the past, plows, buck saws, wood working tool with no cords...etc....

Some people enjoy the hustle and bustle of a convenient lifestyle, personally I like working hard at slowing down. Hard work in the garden with manual labor makes a lot of sense to me. My wife was laid off late last year and will not be returning to work, we have almost everything paid off (exception... very small mortgage) 

I swear if I could figure out how to make a profit farming, I'd never work again away from the farm.... Think of me as a mix between Charles Ingals and John Walton....LOL


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Another question - wvstuck what type of employment were you doing when you financed/bought/saved and paid for your place?

I love reading about what some of you are doing, but the now is good/great -but the story of how you acquired the place to go off grid, have it paid for, and then can down size more so you can get out of the 'race.

so HOW.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

I think I understand you Ernie. I was at a retreat this weekend and the thing to learn about was "Joy"--how to get it, why you don't have it, yaya. The thinking was we are(I will just say) happy because God takes care of us and we go to heaven when we die. My wrench I threw in was "Happiness happens" (yes, just like "poop happens", kinda), that it(or the best most enduring kind perhaps) exists outside of reasons for it existing, reasons like we are fed, warm and no one is coming with machetes today. 

We were supposed to write down things that give us joy, I wrote stuff like fire(heh), climbing a mountain, hard manual labor, people, motorcycles, running, people, nature, storms, listening to the wind , watching tress grow, but the biggest was (simply)opening my eyes in the morning to live another day, whatever comes. Ha, all "wrong" answers, not "spiritual" enough...but God is NOT my Santa neither. And somehow I think the best kind of joy/happiness just is, no reason, senseless and random, chaotic and wild and undeserved--just comes out of nowhere/nothing.

(Now I have to confess that I was enjoying being a thorn to the bible study leader, all the other ladies are more open minded and down to earth, but this lady is uppity and like a "professional" Christian who graduated from seminary and has the cred, but it perturbs her I rebel against her cherry picking of bible verses--context! ha, I read the full paragraph--and she turned green when I brought up Thomas Merton. Is that eeeeeeeevil? It was cool that another old lady took to heart what I said about climbing mountains and this morning she went with me to climb the big dune, she didn't think she could do it and knew it would be hard, but she wanted to feel the joy at the top, and she did)


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

SO if our shelf life is 35 years, why do women go through menopause?


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## Madame (Jan 1, 2003)

Ernie,

Like many others, I like my luxuries, but don't need them. However, given a host of health problems, when the pharmacies close down because society has fallen apart, I doubt I'll be around too long. But ya know, I can sure enjoy life (without a dryer, cable, dishwasher or ipod) in the meantime.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Madame said:


> Ernie,
> 
> Like many others, I like my luxuries, but don't need them. However, given a host of health problems, when the pharmacies close down because society has fallen apart, I doubt I'll be around too long. But ya know, I can sure enjoy life (without a dryer, cable, dishwasher or ipod) in the meantime.


It's a glorious thing to recognize your own mortality and accept it. God bless you for that. 

I'm a long-term planner and that causes me some grief and stress. I should just accept more day to day but it's just not my nature.


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## insocal (May 15, 2005)

One of the most significant "comforts" that I KNOW I could live without if I had to is a flush toilet. I am a big fan of the sawdust bucket toilet concept a la The Humanure Handbook. Having studied the microbiology of water and sewage in college, I am NOT afraid of composting my own waste. It's extremely commonsense, as opposed to flushing waste "away" in water treated to drinking standards.

That said, flush toilets are extremely convenient in my urban setting, so I'll keep mine for now, lol.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

To the person who asked why women have menopause if our design life is about 30-35 years.

Good Question!

Another poster disagreed with the example of long lived people in another country in the modern era.

I'm talking about us looooooong ago. I mean, as a species before modern era and before civilization.

The best information out there, and it is pretty good, shows that most early humans had significant wear on the joints, long bones, and facial joints by the time they were early adulthood. Biologically early adulthood of modern standards around 17. 

Changes in the shapes of the pelvis show that females more than likely went into puberty and were capable of reproduction very early, as in 8-10, possibly before. Pelvis configurations that show females carried offspring to term at ages as young as 10 in surviving skeletons, again probably even before. Tooth eruption (which has also slowed some since then) still shows them having not had all permanent teeth erupted yet clearly carried to term.

Menopause also appears to have slowed significantly for us. There are items like specific bone thinning and other items that show up in surprisingly young women based on bone sutures. Very few women who might have shown themselves as post menopausal have been found so getting to that age, even with a much earlier onset, appears to be pretty rare. Severe arthritis isn't usually found in many joints, but the joints in which it is found, it is truly severe particularly for such young people.

The human body is pretty remarkable, but the bones are essentially those of a modified quadraped rather than a true biped. It leaves several weak points that are subject to intense wear, like knees and the lower back. 

The body you live in now is the product of much more evolution that our ancestors. In some ways it is better (our joints are becoming a bit finer and more flexible) and in many ways much worse (we are much weaker overall in joint strength, bone strength, sturdiness and even some of our senses). It is our improvements in living and medicine that let us live so much longer. We just don't wear them out as fast.

If you take a review of the literature, you'll find that even when the bones can be very precisely found via many methods, the age of the person themselves can be very difficult. We tend to want to say they are much older than later studies show them to be. Mostly because they aged so quickly and so dramatically at such young ages.

So, basically, when I say our bodies as they are only have a "shelf life" of 30-35 years, I'm speaking of us as a Human Animal, living in the way in which we originally developed in the wild. The fact that we've doubled that span and for many, even tripled it, is a true testament to our ingenuity and strength of will and mind. And a good reason to have a nice mattress 

Those modern primitives that live very long lives are something to look toward for inspiration and information, surely. There were probably pockets of people in some places in the long ago that did better too. In general, they didn't though. There is something to be said for being able to have year round nutrition of decent quality, shelter over your head in the winter and sufficient clothing for the climate.


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## candyknitter (Apr 23, 2009)

I think this is a very interesting subject! A while ago I posted on a different forum about needs vs wants. The discussion was really about the benefits "culture" we have here in the UK but I was quite frankly amazed at what people felt they had the "right" to own. They were listing their needs as flat screen tvs, satelitte dishes, computers and cars - these are physically healthy people living with full access to buses and trains?! And ofc they wanted all these things for free because they aren't earning. 
I think we have become way too material and the focus is on looking like you are successful when we should be focusing on family and community. I love simple living but it is interesting to note that in disaster areas they not only send food, water etc but also toys for the children. Small articles that you couldn't say were necessary to living are at times very important to mental well being in a time of stress.


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## tamilee (Apr 13, 2005)

wvstuck said:


> Tamilee,
> 
> Rock on.... Some people don't understand where the wife and are are headed... We had to put cutting the electric off for a while as we are adopting two children. We both sew, she can knit and crochet, I can't knit but do crochet... We are looking for a good loom for a good price so that we can loom our own fabrics. We raise out own food in the garden and have plenty of meat and eggs in the barn. Too bad we aren't neighbors... I often dream of living on a very large parcel of land with neighbors over equal minds. I am always looking for tool from the past, plows, buck saws, wood working tool with no cords...etc....
> 
> ...


Oh, Wow ! WV! I loved weaving in school. I was a chemistry major, bio. minor but found weaving VERY relaxing. I too have wanted a loom for a long time but my, are they pricey.
My dh and I built our own house 30 years ago. WE built it 24' x 32' with the money we had. It cost us $6,500. We had a Franklin wood stove that we heated water on and I bathed in a washtub in front of it. I washed clothes by hand until dh bought me a speed queen, it was one of those round ones with a wringer. Then people in the neighborhood began to talk and my mil was embarassed that I had a Speed Queen so she bought me a shiny new rectangular washing machine. I came home from visiting my mum one day and my Speed Queen was gone and there was the machine. Mil was proud of herself and called people to tell them about it. 
The problem? 
My Speed Queen had a hose at the bottom that was lowered from the back into a pipe to drain the wash water. I added water with a garden hose.
That new one did not get clothes as clean and had an electric water pump to pump the water, so it used much more electricity. 
The Lehman's Hand Washer is even BETTER than the Speed Queen. It is non-electric ,I manually move the agitator bar from side to side and I can visually check the clothes to see if they are clean and wash until I am satisfied. The wringer on the back is non-electric too.


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## soulsurvivor (Jul 4, 2004)

The human body can survive without a lot of comfort. We only have to look at Haiti to see evidence of that. But why on earth would anyone want to? The thrill of a challenge against all odds could be a reason, or finding personal comfort in the simple things of life could be a reason, or you've never had the personal freedom to explore diversity may yet be another reason for rejecting comforts. 

wellll, I've learned as much as I want to about not having personal comforts. I can live without a lot of those, but there are certain specific things I require to stay around as a nice person. One of those is a good bath. Do not get between me and my need for a good soaking bath or else you'll be in some jeopardy for your continued good health. I know from past camping experiences that I can exist a month without my bathtub soaking, but not a day past that. I already know it's the point where the physical meets the mental me and the physical wins.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

tamilee - I'd have been so annoyed (polite word) if someone came in and took what I liked and it was working for me, and replaced it with something I didn't want. Especially for the reason you stated. I'd be trying my darnest to get back the washing machine that I liked.

A lot of times, these improvements, are not improvements.

Angie


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## cvk (Oct 30, 2006)

When I think of giving up comforts I think of people not having two and three cars, a snowmobile, ATV, speed boats, cable tv, a tv in every room, huge houses for just a couple people, eating out contstantly and all of those frills instead of someone sensible having to give up their washer and go beat clothes on a rock. Having said that I have to admit that we lived here for several years burning wood, pumping water from the well, using a path for the bathroom, washing clothes by hand etc. and we weren't depressed or suicidal. Fact is we had a ball! Those things aren't that important. What is important is medical care, food, water and shelter. A lavish lifestyle is not necessary in order to be happy. Happiness comes from within.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

(posted 2x" weird)


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

I still think aging bones and extrapolating proof of a shelf life is speculation without having actually been there(and we certainly aren't finding EVERYONE's bones neither). Nutrition, moderation of workload, luck in avoiding war or accident all contribute to a long(er) life than someone unhealthy and unlucky--all throughout history. If there was a gradual evolutionary overall lenthening of shelf life across the species, it would also occur in other mammals, say dogs and cats in the USA(who live lucky pet lives but are also getting fat and arthritic). How does lifespan pan out for peoples that have been relatively doign the same thing for eons?

I suppose one could use the example of trees(like conifers) and those old growth monsters. They are a small part who were lucky enough to have been planted in good growing, to have avoided fire at the right time in their lives, to have been amoung other similar big trees to help withstand storms. MOST trees of that species died "young", but the genetics are there to live long with the right conditions. I think it's the same thing with humans. Anyone subjected to hard work will have degenerative evidence at a young age, my grandma had an old woman's back at 25 from 20 YEARS of being bent over picking potatoes(yet she lived to 90). 

I dont' have all the journal reading, links, experts or research to back up my theory, all I've got is my own observation (as well as scientists are always revising ad nauseum). Sure there is ebb and flow to evolutionary changes, but I'm just saying I doubt there is that much change regarding shelf life--damage/abuse is one thing, battery life is another.

Just like there is a threshold for how fast a horse can run, despite intense breeding/training/nutrition or even chemicals they can't get a horse to run faster than about 35 mph(or so). They can get more horses up to that limit(breeding for better genes etc), but there is a design limit that draws from ergos, organ capacity etc in how a horse is designed. I think that is what is happening to humans as well, there is that age limit, and nowadays with nutrition and good luck more people can get to that limit/reach old age, not that the limit is itself improving.

And then I can go on the tangent that long life in most "gifted" countries (like USA) can be chalked up to lack of warfare and vaccines and emergency medicine, rather than better nutrition(which would be in those countries someone mentioned, Japan, Mediterranean, who ALSO enjoy a much better healthy quality in old age). Nutrition and lifestyle go a loooooooong way.

But the original question was "comfort", where do you draw your strength, from outside things or from an inner source.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Wyld Thang, check out a book called "Stone Age Economics" by Marshall Sahlins. 

In that book, the author uses actual anthropological evidence gathered in the field to support your very theory. Anthropologists followed actual primitive tribes around and calculated their lifespans as well as how much time they spent per day providing for their basic needs.

At the end you'll begin to see that the "earlier peoples died young and had nasty lives" crowd are just absolutely wrong. Even in primitive jungles like Borneo, tribesmen spend only an average of 2 hours per day supplying their basic needs (with women spending an average of 2.5 hours). Beyond just the time they spend having to survive, they also live well into their 70's. 

It's true that more primitive peoples had a higher mortality rate and also diseases that are entirely curable now were a huge problem then, but if you survived infancy, warfare, and deadly disease (as the majority did) then you lived a long and fruitful life.

I guess that's also part of the problem. We Americans in our "modern" time live a long time, but when you consider that those last 20 years modern medicine has tacked on to our lives are likely to be spend in a nursing home alone as opposed to dying in your 70's surrounded by friends and a large extended family ... I'm not so sure we've come out ahead.

Modern medicine's main purpose seems to be to extend your life so that you will have to allocate MORE resources to modern medicine.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

ChristyACB said:


> To the person who asked why women have menopause if our design life is about 30-35 years.
> 
> Good Question!
> 
> ...


Where did you find this info?
You don't think we've evolved to live longer? 
That long ago, we were still being eaten by saber toothed tigers?


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I completely agree with your theory Ernie, we are becoming soft as a species. 
I keep telling my kids, it doesn't matter if our living room furniture matches. There's no value in keeping up with the Jone's, and I don't care how you hold your fork. It's better to work for what you have. I believe you need to know your basic needs, and take care of that first. Nowadays, not only do people think they are entitled to all these extra comforts, they don't have any idea how to survive for a week or two without outside help. This is not including electricity or cell phones. 
Most people will panic , in a serious crisis, and look to the government for help instead of preparing. I don't want to be anywhere near others if this happens, because it won't be pretty.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Wyld Thang, check out a book called "Stone Age Economics" by Marshall Sahlins.
> 
> In that book, the author uses actual anthropological evidence gathered in the field to support your very theory. Anthropologists followed actual primitive tribes around and calculated their lifespans as well as how much time they spent per day providing for their basic needs.
> 
> ...


I've read that book too. Excellent work!

And it really does stress the overall global point too. While hunter gatherer societies in "warmish" climates live very well with the least amount of effort (the 2 hours gathering versus the long hours of early farming). Those climates also have a longer overall lifespan. A couple of main reasons include no large predators, even climate (going from hard winter to hot summer is actually pretty hard on the body) and consistent, but very limited, food types. They have a tendency to have a robust, very tightly evolved food supply. Borneo is a truly excellent example. You should see the place now in big parts of it. The introduction of species that were supposed to make them be able to grow more food actually diminished the robust but smaller food chain they had going. Their life span began to decrease as a result. Pretty amazing.

But aside from Borneo, which is, after all, an island in a very even climate, look beyond that to where we evolved from and where we initially transited. That is how far back I'm looking in terms of shelf life. We're talking looooong ago. Our "niche" so to speak, as a developing species was primarily as a scavenger gatherer, not hunter gatherer. That came later. Small animals sure, but the larger predators and game almost all evidence shows our tool marks come AFTER tooth marks. Clear indications of scavenging. 

Without the modifications we very quickly brought about with our growing brains and increasingly complex technology, the general age is much lower. The closer you get to a "natural" state, the lower the age for termination is. As far as how many are found, it really isn't that far off from what we find of romans or greeks of very early times. They have isolated great clusters of remains. Clusters are important because they show a good cross section.

Anyway, this is an argument that we could enjoyably go over for years. Many people do as a profession! But while the great migration took Humans into ideal conditions for good life, and also into areas where life was exceptionally hard, it always took us someplace interesting and we always seem to adapt!

Edited to add: I can't find it in the book right now, so I'm not sure if it was in there BUT..another finding for those in really great areas for primitive living was that their ability to technologically advance was severely curtailed. They didn't have the types of adversity that spurred invention. I found that fascinating! While primitive humans that dealt with the very conditions that made their lives too close to the "natural" norm in terms of length (meaning shorter) had harder lives, it was the desire to not have hard lives and get so worn and tired that made them create new things! Like better cutting tools, better stone chipping, better shelter..etc. One of the hallmarks of the societies like the ones in Borneo is that they make VERY little change. They change or invent very slowly. Some were still using the same kind of bone tools they were using when they first came to the islands tens of thousands of years ago, despite the materials to make better. I wish I could remember if it was in that book, but it is an important point. Adversity makes us inventive.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

wendle said:


> Where did you find this info?
> You don't think we've evolved to live longer?
> That long ago, we were still being eaten by saber toothed tigers?


Hi Wendle. The information comes from a compilation of works spanning over a couple of hundred years! The book we referenced in a great layman's intro to the subject but keep in mind it does address the tropical climate on an island, so it is only on one area. A google search can get you access to lots of articles from various anthropological and sociological and archaeological publications. Some interesting ones out there in the last few years include some research on the Laplanders (awesome stuff and amazing people), Northern Native Americans and other cold weather groups. 

As for as if we're evolving to live longer, Ernie is sort of right in his assessment though it isn't complete. 

Direct evolution and peripheral evolutionary effects are very different, but the rapidity with which the effects can be seen is different with each.

As far as direct evolution, that is very slow. Hundreds and thousands of generations to get significant changes. Once you stop reproducing, any chance of passing on a good mutation ceases so, essentially, any positive evolutionary change that you may have that lets you live longer won't be seen to be beneficial. Do you see what I mean? That is direct evolution.

Peripheral evolutionary effects are those things that you may not know or can't be visibly seen or even directly noted in any way while you're reproducing but nonetheless positively effect the ability of your offspring or their offspring to live to reproduce. That would include keeping ones senses into old age, remaining vigorous longer in life and certainly living longer while still useful. That would allow you to give your children a better chance to grow up and take care of their children so they can achieve more material goods (like skins or food to store). 

In that way, aging in a good way is positively selected for by default.

However, Ernie is very correct in that we have now got an opposing trend. While we are still holding pretty steady in overall longevity, we have rapidly increased in what is often called, decrepitude. The ideal is to live a long life and have an short period of rapid decrepitude and then death. We are having an opposing trend right now.

So, while everyone is enjoying having their parents live longer, those parents are far less hale than their ancestors of a hundred years ago even. That is almost entirely due to medicine. It isn't only about food or physical labor or anything because Victorian women who had the vapors for 40 years lived to 80 or 90 too and they never did a lick of work and ate atrocious things. It is about a weaker person who would have died from an illness or accident will now survive but will never be quite the same. Rinse, repeat.

So, bottom line. Yes, I think there is general agreement that the overall selection process favors longevity, but it WON'T for long if we continue to be a net detriment to our offspring and harm their chances. Then it will select for earlier death.

Luckily...it takes a really long time!


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

For people here in the US, generally living longer(due to being "lucky" avoiding war, accident and vaccines) is also generally accompanied by worse health because of lifestyle choices that bring on degenreative disease(heart disease, diabetes, obesity, some cancers, possibly dementia, etc). Take care of yourself and stay active and you have a reasonable chance of having a well old age.

"Personal responsibility" isn't something we can factor out of the evolutionary journey for humans. We can't ignore our intelligence/self awareness/conscience in the mix--whatever you want to call it--animals don't wage organized war, charge taxes, make HFCS. This is where basing the human journey on evolution(I'm not saying evolution is neccessarily invalid tho) I'll say in a human as complicated or higher evolved animal sense(not saying a human isn't a "mammal" either) breaks down for real understanding of what it is to be human.

PS, bring THAT back to the OP question, I say yes, finding comfort in good food, a soft bed(fir boughs make a nice mattress BTW), and chocolate satiates the half-awake humans who do go "animal" when not humored. The wide awake I'd say have that deeper comfort that can never be taken away, life is a beach and then you die, and go on to something else.

(PPS, darn it, I'm not exactly expressing my thought like I want. Mostly I think it's that man *is* a moral/spiritual/thinking being(one way or another) and scientific analysis without considering this part of man(which is of course very squirmy too) only goes so far in understanding.)


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## manygoatsnmore (Feb 12, 2005)

"Adversity makes us inventive". I really like that phrase, Christy. Goes right along with the "use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without" mindset, but takes it one step further. Would you mind if I tucked that one into my sig line?


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

manygoatsnmore said:


> "Adversity makes us inventive". I really like that phrase, Christy. Goes right along with the "use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without" mindset, but takes it one step further. Would you mind if I tucked that one into my sig line?


Go right ahead! It will give me a grin when I see it!


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

stumbled across this today, and thought it relevant:


> http://tinyhouseblog.com/straw-bale/a-desert-oasis/
> 
> Journey to a Small Place
> By Patricia Kerns
> ...


more pics of the house she built at the link, for those interested.

--sgl


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

Patricia (from the above article) is a personal friend of mine, and I will be staying in her domed guesthouse within the next few weeks ... I'll try to remember to take pictures of her set-up if y'all are interested.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Mama Crow - that's neat that you know Patricia, and Heck Yea - we want photos.

I love investigating the 'small houses'.

Angie


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Mama Crow is one of those kinds of people that just keeps coming up with surprises, no matter how long you've known her.


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## jessepona (Sep 7, 2005)

Ernie said:


> Wyld Thang, check out a book called "Stone Age Economics" by Marshall Sahlins.
> 
> -----
> 
> At the end you'll begin to see that the "earlier peoples died young and had nasty lives" crowd are just absolutely wrong. Even in primitive jungles like Borneo, tribesmen spend only an average of 2 hours per day supplying their basic needs (with women spending an average of 2.5 hours). Beyond just the time they spend having to survive, they also live well into their 70's.


I've read that book; it's very interesting. When I took a course on native peoples of The Great Lakes region we were taught the same thing. Colonists thought the Indians were lazy because they seemed to spend so little time working. They didn't need to work as long because their material needs were small in comparison to those of the colonists. Even the farming tribes apparently spent less than 3-4 hours a day working. The man who taught the class was a Potowotomi (sp) elder and he drew from oral traditions and archeological evidence. Interesting stuff!


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

Ernie said:


> I'm really curious why you take a sociological viewpoint against needless material comforts and act like you're being attacked personally. Is it the subject matter that bothers you all, or the bearer?
> 
> I'm sitting here on an upholstered chair typing this, sipping a cup of coffee, and in a heated home (not a mud hut). If you've got a splinter in your eye, I have a beam in mine. I'm less Spartan than others, however I do concede that there are many, MANY material comforts in my life which not only fail to provide me any pleasure, but actually inconvenience me as well.
> 
> I've started to notice the differences between those needless material comforts and real comfort in my own life, partly through contact with some heroic influences, and I'm encouraging others to do the same.



I attempt to "unspoil" myself all the time.. for two reasons.. one is for the eventuality of having to do without and the other is simply to remind me of the truly important things in life which I believe cannot be ascertained while sitting in the middle of luxury..Just my 2 cents...It was the main reason we lived without running water, heat and air for such long periods while building.. it would have been very easy just to get it put in..call a plumber and have it done..But the struggle of not having it easy resulted in our having to think what to do.. I almost hate to admit this but before I lived "rustic"..I could not contemplate how to brush my teeth without a bathroom sink... not to mention the many upgrades to the toilet situation..or how to wash my hair without a running shower.. laundry etc... Now I not only know how to do those things but it becomes second nature when our running water does go out as it did for a week when the parish water system pipes busted and we were without water for a week.. we never really even noticed it...we just started doing whatwe had doen for the nearly three years we lived without..


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## Timberline (Feb 7, 2006)

I have been trying to find a way to express my feeling on this subject, and I was re-reading "One Man's Wilderness." If anyone understood living a happy, comfortable life without all the modern day fuss, I'd say it was Mr. Proenneke. My feelings were stated so perfectly that I just quoted it. I'm still working towards de-cluttering and getting back to basics, so find it inspiring.

_"Needs? I guess that is what bothers so many folks. They keep expanding their needs until they are dependent on too many things and too many other people. I don't understand economics, and I suppose the country would be in a mess if people suddenly cut out a lot of things they don't need. I wonder how many things in the average American home could be eliminated if the question were asked, "Must I really have this?" I guess most of the extras are chalked up to comfort or saving time.

Funny thing about comfort - one man's comfort is another man's misery. Most people don't work hard enough physically anymore and comfort is not easy to find. It is surprising how comfortable a hard bunk can be after you come down off a mountain.

I've seen grown men pick at food. They can't be hungry in the first place. Or maybe their food has been too fancy and with all the choices they've had, they don't really know what they enjoy anymore."_


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## tamilee (Apr 13, 2005)

The same here Chalk Creek. As soon as the son, dil, and 2 grands move into their own apartment I will declutter like a mad woman. Now this is not to say that I don't love them but 5 1/2 years is enough. I hate knickknacks and things that have very little functional use or true aesthetic beauty. I want a simple life, an uncluttered home and few luxuries. I want to live a quiet, peaceful life.
The quote from the book is oh so true. I love getting my hands in the soil, planting seeds and harvesting the food I have grown. All 6 of my siblings hATE, any type of physical labor and see it as somehting to be feared, dreaded and avoided at any cost.


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

Mama Crow said:


> Patricia (from the above article) is a personal friend of mine, and I will be staying in her domed guesthouse within the next few weeks ... I'll try to remember to take pictures of her set-up if y'all are interested.


cool! look forward to a full report and pics!

another person that saw the shackles of "comfort" and "luxury" was thoreau. i recall reading thoreau's walden about college age, and finding it one of the most profound books i'd read. you can find walden and some of his other works here:
http://thoreau.eserver.org/

--sgl


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

We carry our drinking water in stainless milk pails from the spring.
We carry our bathing and cleaning water in from rain catchment tanks just outside.
We heat our home and water with wood.
We do our laundry outside, with a wood fired outdoor water heater, and an old Maytag wringer washer--and dry on a clothesline, year 'round.
We grow and preserve our own food.

Comfort, to me, is a deep hot bath in the dead of winter.
Comfort is having clean clothes to wear.
Comfort is clean sheets, clean wool blankets, and a well worn out body resting until the next morning.
Comfort is quality food to see me through the next day, and cool, fresh water to drink.

Everything else is chaff.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Like most things there is a balance to be found. The Spartans went to one extreme to harden themselves. Some folks boast on how simply or Spartan they live. Others relish in their luxuries.

Paul had it right:

Philippians 4:10-12 (King James Version)

10But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.

11Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

12I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.


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## Timberline (Feb 7, 2006)

sgl42 said:


> another person that saw the shackles of "comfort" and "luxury" was thoreau. i recall reading thoreau's walden about college age, and finding it one of the most profound books i'd read. you can find walden and some of his other works here:


I read that again last year, I like it.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I'm giving up nothing... all the comforts I enjoy now, I'll enjoy post teotwawki... may not enjoy my large tv and fancy computer monitor as much, but I'll still enjoy em 'some'!

Shy of zombies roaming the street, I'm giving up nothing!


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

I'll get all my comforts once TEOTWAWKI hits. Until then, it's day to day living in the modern world.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

There is a difference between "living" and "existing". I prefer to "live". Why bother staying alive if life is miserable? I prep so I will be able to live in comfort. 

The level of comfort my change from a house to a tent, but even a tent can be comfortable with planning and work. A caveman could have woven cloth, sewed it into a comforter, and stuffed it with cotton for warmth and comfort IF he'd had the knowledge to do so. 

Comfort is something we can make ourselves. It doesn't have to be purchased. Commercials on TV are used to manipulate people into thinking they have to buy comfort. They work hard to convince us that we "must" have what they are selling in order to be happy and comfortable. It's a lie that many fall for... that's why we are now a debt nation. 

Which leads me to the observation that happiness can't be bought. People think they are buying things that make them happy and comfortable. They soon tire of whatever "gadget" they purchased, then move on to spend money on whatever the next commercial tells them they will now want. Not a good way to find happiness at all.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Spinner said:


> There is a difference between "living" and "existing". I prefer to "live". Why bother staying alive if life is miserable? I prep so I will be able to live in comfort.
> 
> The level of comfort my change from a house to a tent, but even a tent can be comfortable with planning and work. A caveman could have woven cloth, sewed it into a comforter, and stuffed it with cotton for warmth and comfort IF he'd had the knowledge to do so.
> 
> ...



Spinner you are SO RIGHT!


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## Madame (Jan 1, 2003)

:lock1:


Ernie said:


> It's a glorious thing to recognize your own mortality and accept it. God bless you for that.
> 
> I'm a long-term planner and that causes me some grief and stress. I should just accept more day to day but it's just not my nature.


 I still prep, both for short term emergencies and for my kids. When I first found out about my deteriorating health, I threw myself a pity party for a week or two - but that got real boring. So, like everyone else, I live a day a day at a time - and like everyone here, I prep!


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

wyld thang said:


> SO if our shelf life is 35 years, why do women go through menopause?


To give their families incentive for cannibalism?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

pickapeppa said:


> To give their families incentive for cannibalism?


If I'm going to resort to cannibalism, it's not going to be a menopausal grandmother. Got anything fresher?


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

Ernie said:


> If I'm going to resort to cannibalism, it's not going to be a menopausal grandmother.


That is what folks would refer as a stewin' hen :shocked:


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Ernie said:


> If I'm going to resort to cannibalism, it's not going to be a menopausal grandmother. Got anything fresher?


Adolescents?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

If this thread was a jet fighter, I'd be pulling the bailout handle right about now and hoping my chute opened.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Ernie said:


> If this thread was a jet fighter, I'd be pulling the bailout handle right about now and hoping my chute opened.


Better hope you don't land in Texican's field. You might end up in his freezer.


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

Okay. I'll play nice and be serious too. I like my creature comforts. The older I get, the more I like them. In fact, I like them so much, they'll have to be pried from my cold dead hands.

I like our clean burning, energy efficient natural gas furnace and water heater. I like a car with ample space to get to town and fit a month's worth of shopping in the trunk. Running water, filtered drinking water, grocery stores, and all the other modern conveniences.

If it ever looks like things will deteriorate in this country so far we wouldn't have them and civil war could break out at any moment, we would leave, take our kids and set up somewhere with a stable functioning society. Because in the end, the name of the game is survival. And a stable, functioning society is the most guaranteed way of ensuring your kids and grandkids can carry on with their lives in relative peace.

I despise fighting and violence. Maybe I'm a softy, but I'd prefer to flee than try to tough it out under those circumstances. I love my family too much to think of putting them in harms' way for the sake of fighting a heroes fight in which nobody wears a team color and everyone is a potential enemy. Life is too short and precious to waste on anxiety, fear and rage.

Just my .02.


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## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

Related to stuff. I have passed over the line where I no longer own things, but they own me. I have to clean them, repair them, charge them, replace the batteries, find them under other things, etc, etc etc.

Thus I am in the mode of reducing my piles of stuff. Looking forward to having several yard sales. Of course that takes time too..... Even getting rid of them, they own my time until they are gone.

Sigh...........................


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

Mama Crow said:


> Patricia (from the above article) is a personal friend of mine, and I will be staying in her domed guesthouse within the next few weeks ... I'll try to remember to take pictures of her set-up if y'all are interested.


I was there two weeks ago ... took a camera, and didn't take a single snapshot ... but some of my friends (that I met there) did.

I'll be making a new thread on it, and posting some links to blogs and photos of the visit.


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

Mama Crow said:


> I was there two weeks ago ... took a camera, and didn't take a single snapshot ... but some of my friends (that I met there) did.
> 
> I'll be making a new thread on it, and posting some links to blogs and photos of the visit.


HERE IS THE THREAD!


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## megafatcat (Jun 30, 2009)

The Stoics used to wander about with their clothes and a cup to drink out of. The story goes that one of the stoics saw a shepherd boy getting a drink from a stream by cupping his hand and scooping up the water. The stoic looked at his cup, dashed it to the ground, cursed and said 'I have been carrying that unnecessary thing around for three years!'
Minimalizing and consumption can be taken too far. If we practiced our SHTF preps we would find out the difference between need and want and useless.


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

Mama Crow, I looked at your photos and they are lovely. Aren't the nights out in the desert the best? So many stars! I've lived in the country most of my life, but until I spent the night in Big Bend back in 1983, I never knew one could actually see galaxies with the naked eye, as well as more stars than I ever thought could be visible. I haven't been out that way for a few years, and the pictures you posted capture a certain essence the desert has. Thanks for posting them.

On to 'comforts'.... my DH and I already live on the edge of what most people would be comfortable with. We have all the basics---electricity, phone, and dial up, of course. But other comforts .... well.... we have them but not exactly the way most people in today's society have them. We do have a 3 ton central air conditioning unit, but stopped using it about 5 years ago and changed to three 110v. window air conditioners, and we only cool the room we are in at the time. We have online service, but it's dial up and not high speed anything. We have television, but it's network with a converter box and not cable or satellite. We have good, reliable vehicles but they are all at least 9 years or older. 

So, yes, we have comforts, and I don't want to give them up unless I have to. And we have had to in the past. For several years, we lived without any kind of air conditioning at all, and that's hard to get used to in southeast Texas, approx. 75 miles inland from the coast, when it's extremely hot and humid from early May until late October. Oh, and the MOLD that gets in your house from the heat and humidity--- I fought it constantly and it took me about a year to finally eradicate it from the house after we did get air conditioning. Refrigerator is a dorm sized unit, about 3.5 ft. tall and fits perfectly on top of the kitchen counter. Freezer is a medium sized unit. Everythign else is canned, so not a lot of luxuries there as far as frozen pizzas and t.v. dinners. 

We have some comforts, but these are pretty much at a minimum. Or at least the minimum I am willing to live with. We've been in situations where we had very little and sat around sweating, eating beans and rice that were cooked outside so as not to heat up the house, and rigged up a shower on the back porch with the water hose. We could do it again, but I don't really want to.


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## Kathyhere (Sep 27, 2009)

I think that we can 'enjoy' creature comforts without becoming enslaved to them. I have to say down here in the hot and humid south, air-conditioning is really great to have. I had to do without it for a few weeks after Katrina and that was the pits, so miserable. This modern world has given us an incredible amount of knowledge, look at all we are gathering from one another right here, it's sorta like what megafatcat was talking about. So we can take what we learn and make our lives better/easier. I guess it's a question of only using the necessary things, what we learn to help us do things better and not get bogged down with all the useless clutter. Just think about one thing I would consider a modern convenience for instance; they used to sun dry their extra food and salt the meat to keep it, now we use the modern conveniences of freezing and canning the extras from the harvest. So this has improved our means of enjoying our food for a very extended period of time. All this shared info (internet) that we have now, we may not always be able to have so widely a disperse of knowledge gathering, but the knowledge we have gained we get to keep. So what I'm saying, the modern conveniences are not all bad, we just need to pick and choose what we want/need to have from all the knowledge available.

Kathy


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

I agree with those who say that there's a difference between survival and living. You can do both if your attitude is right. It's not the material things that mess us up, it's our own manner of thinking that messes us up.
Right now, I enjoy having a hot tub on my back deck. Sure, this luxury may become nothing more than a rain barrel someday if things ever get that bad, but for now, I am free to enjoy it. I'll get along just fine without it.
I love my memory-foam mattress too, and just because all hell breaks loose, I can't see that I'd have to do without it, but if I had to do without it, I would do so without complaint. Heck, if things got that bad I'd probably be so exhausted each night that I'd be able to sleep right on the bare floor and sleep like a baby!
We have extra clothing, medical supplies, hygiene supplies, cleaning supplies, etc., to keep us more "comfortable" in the event of any real crisis. We also could do without our internet/tv/etc., because we have lots of books (some would consider those to be "luxury items"), board games, etc. We also have solar/hand crank radios to stay in contact. We have wood stoves to provide us with warmth (comfort), hot meals, hot water (luxury?) etc. We also have a generator (luxury?) and if fuel is unavailable, we would can all our food that can't be stored fresh. We'd survive just dandy without electricity. We have lamps and plenty of reserved lamp oil. (luxury?) We make our own candles from our own beeswax.
I also believe that what is a needless "comfort" (luxury) for one person can be an easily provided necessity for others. Some of you could live just fine without a wood cook stove, but for me, it's a requirement. Yeah, I could "survive" without it. I could eke out an existence without any of the things we have come to value as "needs" today, but I don't want to simply eke out an existence. That being said, if I have to, I will. I can garden without hoe or rake, using only my bare hands, but do I want to? No.


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## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

To me it is simple. The less stress I have the better. The more comfortable I am the less stress I will be experiencing. I'll give up anything I have to, but I'll stay as comfortable as I can.


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## cast iron (Oct 4, 2004)

> There is a difference between "living" and "existing". I prefer to "live". Why bother staying alive if life is miserable? I prep so I will be able to live in comfort.





> I'm giving up nothing...


Very well said, mankind has sacrificed much to advance your society and my family has worked hard to be in a position to enjoy certain things in life such as electricity, water, shelter, heat, Steak and eggs, various recreational toys, internet, cellphone, sleeping in a real bed, travel, camping, hiking, shooting, fishing, tools, motorized vehicles, coffee in the morning and whiskey at night.

I'm not sure what exactly the definition of a 'Post-Modern Age' is but I strongly suspect most of the above things can be enjoyed during said Age, maybe not with as much ease as it is now experienced but likely doable. 

If folks want to live without certain things because that makes them happy, then more power to them, but for me, I like life the way it is and will do everything possible to maintain that. I like to have a latte once every couple of months or so, and in a post modern age if I can't figure out how to make my own latte I ---- well sure will have some plain jane coffee on a regular basis, even if I have to percolate it over my hobo fire under the bridge by the river. 

For us much 'comfort' comes not from material things but from having family and friends around to share the experiences, good and bad. Family and friends are the most important ingredient in being comfortable in good times and in bad.


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

if peak oil is true (which i believe it is), then much of our subururban infrastructure will become very expensive to maintain. the biggest energy users are transportation (much of it cars, with some of it trucking), and home heating/cooling. anyone love the comfort of long commutes? what about the aesthetics of hiway overpasses? 

even today, the vast majority of suburbanites get little actual enjoyment from their 1/5 acre -- it's a chore to mow, water, fertilize the grass. and the when they're not doing that, they're inside watching tv, not outside enjoying the yard. but advertisers and real estate agents convinced them that they have to have it. 

many houses are poorly designed for energy efficiency (eg, low thermal mass, little/no shading, dependent on central heat/air for any degree of comfort.) and the suburban sprawl requires long commutes to jobs to pay for the house and cars. so the question is, how long will the subururban middle class continue to view these "investments" as "comfortable" and "luxurious" in the face of rapidly rising energy costs? i think these are the "comforts" most at risk to the majority of the population (altho not necessarily those on this forum.) 

i think we'll have a drop a very long way, far farther than even my pessimistic views, before coffee beans aren't available, and similar small luxuries or comforts.

--sgl


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

Around my part of the country, it's the country-dwellers that would suffer the most from any fuel shortages or the like. Most people who live here commute the hour to the city to work. Otherwise, there is no work. Most suburbs around here are within walking/biking/car pooling distance to a shopping/industrial area. It's much harder when you live an hour from work out here in the country. That's why it's so important, regardless of where you live, that you strive to at least pay off your home so that you aren't in danger of losing it should driving to work become unrealistic. Most of us can find ways to scrape together enough to pay taxes.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I have a neighbor who has been unemployed quite some time. He was out for a walk while I was working in the garden this weekend and he stopped to chat and show me his new cellphone, despite the fact I have no interest in gadgetry.

I asked why he bought an expensive cellphone if he's unemployed. His answer: "So I can check my email and get messages while I'm on the go. I don't want to miss an important call for an interview."

Off he went and as I pulled some more weeds I thought, "Why is an unemployed person on the go so much?"

Most of us are familiar with some form of belt-tightening. We can do that and we've done it before. But on a national level? Do we have that sort of national spirit still?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Thinking some more on this topic and I thought I'd share ...

In Thorstein Veblen's book, The Theory of the Leisure Class, he says:

"In order to gain and to hold the esteem of men it is not sufficient merely to possess wealth or power. The wealth or power must be put in evidence, for esteem is awarded only on evidence. And not only does the evidence of wealth serve to impress one's importance on others and to keep their sense of his importance alive and alert, but it is of scarcely less use in building up and preserving one's self-complacency. In all but the lowest stages of culture the normally constituted man is comforted and upheld in his self-respect by "decent surroundings" and by exemption from 'menial offices'. Enforced departure from his habitual standard of decency, either in the paraphernalia of life or in the kind and amount of his everyday activity, is felt to be a slight upon his human dignity, even apart from all conscious consideration of the approval or disapproval of his fellows."

Essentially, Thorstein is proposing that people purchase luxuries and eschew menial labor not because they particularly love them so, but rather because it gives them a certain status amongst the communities they inhabit. A man's wealth and power is accorded by the amount of luxuries and leisure time he can maintain, even if he doesn't really like the luxuries or is bored silly during the leisure time.

We here are sort of an odd sociological experiment. We have shunned the more local community and sought out specific communities on the internet which speak more to our desired values. And to obtain a higher status in the new community to which we cling we then try to outdo each other by demonstrating our complete abandonment of any luxuries and our love for menial labor. 

Let me be the first to break the mold by stating that I love my little luxuries. I love being able to type out words on a computer instead of writing them out longhand, even if I feel the quality of work I'm willing to put forth the effort to write longhand is _always_ superior. I also love a piece of pie and a cup of good coffee, as evidenced by some less flattering parts of Ernie.

I would miss those luxuries. However I would not curl up and die at their lack. That may be all the difference when the civilization that affords us so much luxury rolls up its carpets. We will be able to adjust downwards having spent time mentally preparing to do so.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Wendy and I pondered these very questions and perspectives back pre-y2k.

We came to the conclusion, and put teeth into it.... that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the hot bath, the lavish meal, the warm and comfortable bed, the durable and attractive clothing, etc...... so long as we can provide it right here at home.
We spent every day since then, in one manner or another, working toward that end.


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## cast iron (Oct 4, 2004)

Alright, I'm going to come clean on this and make an admission. If the internet was not available in a post-modern age I would miss it greatly.

While I do derive some recreational enjoyment from the internet, that would not be what bothered me the most. I have become reliant on the internet for a very large part of my research. Research on a very wide variety of subjects, research which has demonstratively contributed to my work towards self-sufficiency, and without any doubt has saved me a pretty good amount of money on material costs. But the real beauty of the internet is it has dramatically shortened my learning curve on just about any subject I needed to learn about.

There is just no substitute for the number of data inputs from people who have actually been there and done that on any given subject. You can of course get books on the how-to's for many of the various subjects but the internet brings to you the all important learning's of those who have gone before you. Oftentimes these learning's are as important or more important than the book reference.

Two recent examples involve two fairly major repairs to my wife's car one of which the mechanic charges $1500 to complete. This is a pretty detailed job that pretty much requires most of the top half of the engine to come off and with these front drive transverse mounted engines there is precious little room to work. I had the shop manual for reference but my best resource was hooking up with some GM techs on a discussion forum who walked me through the job. These are guys who do this job every week and their little tricks and special tools really shortened the time and improved the quality of the job for me. 

One of the biggest benefits is it allowed me to prepare during the week and gather all the tools, parts, and reference materials such that I could complete the job over the weekend and have vehicle back on the road by Monday. In retrospect had I not had the help from these guys to prepare, the car would not have been completed by the end of the weekend, it would have taken me all week, likely. Anyway, the job was done for about $120 in parts.

The second job required tearing the upper and lower steering column apart to replace a switch. This was not a particular difficult job but there were again some specific sequences of disassembly/assembly that were required, as well as some requirements on the air bag deployment mechanism to make sure it worked properly when re-assembled. It also required two somewhat special tools that needed to be built or rented. 

Again, I had the shop manual for reference but the best reference was a web page I came across by a guy who happened to do the exact same job on the same make and model of vehicle. He made a step by step procedure complete with detailed digital pictures for each step. Once again, armed with this information I was able to gather all the necessary tools and parts before hand to complete the job over the weekend. I ended up putting my laptop on the passenger seat of my wife's car and just scrolling down the webpage one step at a time.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I'm in the same boat, Wayne. 

I use the internet every day for learning more about agricultural pursuits. Beesource.com puts me in touch with thousands of other beekeepers discussing either problems I have, or wish to avoid. Gardening forums, websites, and blogs help educate me on new methods of gardening I might not have otherwise known about.

All of my sheep on my farm have been purchased through people I have met _on this website._ Both of my dogs too. I've gotten heirloom seeds from other forum members, as well as beekeeping equipment which was given to me for free by a kindly beekeeper in Wisconsin. 

The internet, ironically, has simplified the simplification of my life and in many ways smoothed my transition to a more sustainable lifestyle.

I'll miss it when it goes.


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## michelleIL (Aug 29, 2004)

I'm with Wayne and Ernie on not wanting to let go of the web, just for the research. While I'm not doing a whole heck of a lot right now to further my homesteading persuits, I'm doing what I can and look forward to being able to do more. If it had not been for THIS FORUM, Homesteading Today, I'd not have my current boyfriend. I've never had a boyfriend that would eat wild food that I can tell...and he's never had a girlfriend that he could take out to gather plants with. We love it!


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

................Regardless of the level of our comforts , we ALL have so far too fall relative too the rest of the world that we just can't conceive of how Impotent we would be without electricity , pre prepared foods , an inexhaustable supply of potable water and a sanitation system too flush away our waste . Of course , all the above are the characteristics of a very Urban lifestyle , homesteaders can produce their own electricity , grow their own food , pump water from their well and access too their own private septic system . No wonder 'We' understand the value of living like a Hick ! , fordy


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

Kathyhere said:


> I think that we can 'enjoy' creature comforts without becoming enslaved to them. I have to say down here in the* hot and humid south, air-conditioning is really great to have. *I had to do without it for a few weeks after Katrina and that was the pits, so miserable. This modern world has given us an incredible amount of knowledge, look at all we are gathering from one another right here, it's sorta like what megafatcat was talking about. So we can take what we learn and make our lives better/easier. I guess it's a question of only using the necessary things, what we learn to help us do things better and not get bogged down with all the useless clutter. Just think about one thing I would consider a modern convenience for instance; they used to sun dry their extra food and salt the meat to keep it, now we use the modern conveniences of freezing and canning the extras from the harvest. So this has improved our means of enjoying our food for a very extended period of time. All this shared info (internet) that we have now, we may not always be able to have so widely a disperse of knowledge gathering, but the knowledge we have gained we get to keep. So what I'm saying, the modern conveniences are not all bad, we just need to pick and choose what we want/need to have from all the knowledge available.
> 
> Kathy



I have to agree on the AC... we lived here in Louisiana without for three years.. last summer I finally gave in and we bought a couple of window units...my DH always teases me and says that he knows that when I finally give in and agree to put in Central air.. then he says to look out because society will surely collaspe and we will not be able to beg borrow or steal the electricity to run the unit ..LOL... he is convinced that he will never again live in comfort..poor guy...


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

If the web disappeared, I'd have to talk to my dogs, chickens, and goats a heckuva lot more. I'd also have to get up to the library, and find information the old fashioned way.

I'd miss it. I'd also miss dvds and iced tea. I'd have iced tea for a few years, but after that...

pickapeppa... don't worry, my freezer's full


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## rightathome (Feb 10, 2009)

I like my luxury comforts, I'll keep them as long as I can. I've lost them all twice, so their presence is optional, and in my experience, temporary. I have had happy times living in a tent. I have had happy times living in a one room house. I am now happy living in a big house. It's just not about the stuff anymore. Having it is great, but knowing it's unnecessary is priceless.

I'm interested in how you all came to learn this lesson...?


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## michelleIL (Aug 29, 2004)

most likely by losing everything we've accumulated over a few years. I had to let go of everything in order to move to where I'm at now to attend college, cuz it wouldn't fit in a dorm room. I just had to get here any way possible and wasn't making the kind of money where that was possible to move into an apartment. Dorm was the best option at the time. I have since reacquired and even more so. Now I have more useful things in my supplies. I have things that will help me to make a home for myself and make getting and preparing food much more easy. I'm accumulating now so that when the money gets tight, I'll have what I need already.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

rightathome said:


> I'm interested in how you all came to learn this lesson...?


You know, I'd like to be able to point to one specific watershed event in my life that led me to these conclusions but there just isn't one. It sort of grew out of my reading and then the people I met who were at all different stages of life and the process of simplification.

Then my wife and I just started simplifying. Get rid of this, trim a little off of that, and before long you look up and you're not living the same life that the rest of America is. We never really had a concrete goal or an example, but we just started peeling back until we were feeling happier about it. Then as time progressed and we got used to various things we peeled back even more.

I want to make clear that you don't have to abandon all worldly possessions and go live in a cave in order to simplify. It's a journey, not a destination. And a big part of it is simply an intellectual exercise until such point as you actually need it.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

I can't point to one particular event either... but it was sort of like a light coming on all of a sudden..one minute I was living right smack in the middle of a big city in a condo with a six figure job..DH was retired from the AF and now working on a second career. We had four kids in high school who thought loading the dishwasher was work. We had all intentions of moving back to Alaska as soon as they graduated HS..

Next thing I knew, I felt totally compelled to stay here and not move back to AK ( I can't stress how strong this feeling was) , buy land far out of town and hard to find and build a home with our own hands ( even though we had no experience whatsoever at building), grow our own food ( only had a flower bed before that and no animals). I became obsessed with learning how to do everything without anything...I wanted to have three ways to fufill our basic needs...Ie) three ways to obtain water...I am still obsessed and furiously learning soemthing new everyday...I just thank goodness my DH went along...My kids refer to it as the point in time when "Mom lost her mind"...LOL..

To finish the story..we found land, built the house, made the gardens, animals..I have learned many things...the kids married and started their families but are now in the process of moving to the farm with us..by the summers end all but one will be living here with their spouses and children...A time that I will refer to as the time " I lost my mind"...LOL


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