# Do you like this stallion?



## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fmDA5dxsr4&index=27&list=UUv9k3-JtrcUmJLaqPWWpjFQ[/ame]

So what do you all think about this young stallion? I was browsing the web and came across this. This is a boy I bred & raised. He is one of the best examples of what I was striving for in my small breeding program. I sold him at age 4 yrs, just didn't have the funds to train or take him any further. If he had been a filly he would never have been sold. 

His dam was in foal for a full sibling to him when I lost her to colic. She was 23 yrs. I do still have a son of his who is a basic twin to his sire only slightly more white and slightly smaller. This son was the result of breeding Horizon back to his own dam. It was my last ditch effort to try for a "perfect" flaxen filly but alas I got a perfect colt. LOL


----------



## PNWest (Mar 15, 2010)

As a stallion he seems to have 'nice' manners, grip on the basic commands and well groomed. Structure wise he seems very unmuscled for a Stallion over 4 years, there is a pronounced goose rump and there is no depth to his chest and lung area. It would be a red flag to me to have a stud of that age and no muscles apparent.

I am guessing he is 6 years of age plus, and looks like a skinny teenager. If you could give us an idea of what you were intending to do with him, it would help.

He looks like he would throw very beautiful, fine boned but small refined colts and if that is what you are looking, he's your boy.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

He's very pretty but like PNWest I'm not impressed with the goose rump or lack of muscling. I can't tell for sure because of his stockings (I'd need to see in person) but his cannons may be offset as well. 

He has a nice disposition, is quiet, and listens well but he's not what I look for in a Morgan stallion.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I'd really like to see this stallion standing up without a saddle on before making any comments ... it's so difficult for me to actually 'see' what is under the saddle and what the topline actually looks like.

I've been looking at a lot of Morgan stallions the past month or so and I've seen quite a few with rear ends that look a lot like this one. I've also noticed that a lot of the Morgan stallions that look like they have a much flatter line over the top of the rump and higher tail set are the ones that are photographed in a 'stretched' position, so I do wonder what those same stallions would look like if they were 'stood up' to be photographed.

This stallion does look like an 'in between' ... some of the older, heavily foundation bred Morgans are heavier boned, heavier bodied and more heavily muscled but there are also a lot of the modern type that look almost like a Saddlebred. This stallion, if he's just being started under saddle, probably hasn't developed the muscling he will have after a year under saddle so it's difficult to tell exactly what he will look like then.


----------



## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

here's after I sold him, about 4 yrs old.










And here as a yearling at my farm.

I will say he was bred to be what I like which is more of an all around 'using horse'. Sound, solid, easy going. But many from similar bloodlines have done well in western pleasure and hunter at morgan shows. I think a lot of people would be in for a shock to see many of the morgan stallions out there in 'real life'. Toplines are much straighter when they are parked out. And often times Morgans are shown in hog fat condition too, esp the foundation bred ones for some reason. This horse is fairly high % of older western working bloodlines but is not 100% foundation. I honestly don't know if he is still a stallion in the video or even when it was taken. I think he was right at 3 or 4 yrs when I sold him and had no training other than halter broke, but was nice mannered. I just chanced upon the video. You can love him or hate him. I liked him a lot and many other morgan folks did too. I certainly sold him very easily for a nice price in a market others could hardly make a sale in.


----------



## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

After watching the video, I'm pretty sure he's not a stallion, but a gelding at this point. He's certainly eye catching, very pretty. One thing you can be glad of is that he is obviously being well cared for and well handled. I've been following Morgans for a while, I am not at all likely to get another horse at this point, but I just like them. From what I've seen, many Morgans are slow to mature and fill in or are fairly lightly built. It's hard to tell from the video, but he seems quite light on his feet, I like that. 

I'm not the expert to fully critique him, but gosh he's pretty! Ok, maybe I'm a bit of a sucker for the color too.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

His 4 year old photo looks to me to show a very nice typical 'in-between' type Morgan, not extreme in either direction and the conformation I see looks similar to a lot of the Morgan stallions I've looked at recently. If I were looking for something to critique, his tail set might be a little lower than I'd like but that could also be the angle of the photo, with that hind foot somewhat forward that could affect what you see. I rather like him as a Morgan, though I'll admit I'm not experienced with the breed, but as with many other breeds, I prefer something that is not extreme in either direction. Some of the classic/foundation Morgan lines are too 'heavy' for me, as are the very modern types with the near-Saddlebred conformation.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I'm sorry, I thought you wanted opinions. He's very pretty, and would be even prettier if he was/is a gelding.


----------



## Horseyrider (Aug 8, 2010)

The pictures confirm what I was thinking looking at the video. He's not goose rumped; he's either stuck or sore in the ileo-sacral area, perhaps both. Look at the angle of his hip in his yearling pic. Something happened in the next couple of years. It can be anything from an overexertion in the pen, too much collected work under saddle, to rolling on uneven ground and bruising a bone or joint.

This horse is a beautiful floaty mover in front, but he's something else altogether behind. Note that in the transitions he makes from walk to trot that the first nine or ten strides behind are borderline lame before he can smooth out. Since the first part of transitions loads the back end, he's darn uncomfortable until he gets a chance to get going enough to dump on his front end. I'm not surprised they don't show any canter work. I doubt he can do it without cross-cantering and bucking. It'd be too uncomfortable.

If this horse came to me, he'd have to have a careful evaluation by an equine chiropractor who's also a DVM certified in acupuncture. He'd also need an evaluation and work by a top farrier who really understands gait cycle. Then, when most of the heat and inflammation has subsided, he would need to begin under saddle work (which I see is absent on the video, unsurprisingly) that is far more like physical therapy than regular work. He's young. He hurts. And much of his history of work involves pain. So much of the job of the trainer is going to be to not just get him doing what he's supposed to be doing, but to change his mind about what work's all about, and to help him learn to not fear it. 

IMO, he's lovely; but not really a stallion prospect. I think he'd make a very nice gelding. I don't think I'd give a lot of dough for him because he's going to take a lot of inputs to make comfortable and happy to work, and while the odds are reasonable that he could be brought around, it might not be successful.

BTW, I don't care much for this person's efforts to show how quiet and broke this horse is by draping the long lines everywhere. That's a foolish amateur error that can change from horse standing there to spaghetti on a fork in less than five seconds. It's impossible to see if the lines are attached to a sidepull, halter, or to a bit; but horses can get their tongues cut in half and their unwrapped legs degloved with this kind of stupid.


----------



## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> I'm sorry, I thought you wanted opinions. He's very pretty, and would be even prettier if he was/is a gelding.


 Wow, that's a little rude. I did post asking if people liked him. I never belittled anyone's opinion of him. I only posted a few more snapshots as someone mentioned liking to see horses w/o saddle and such. I personally really liked the colt and had quite a few folks interested in him back when I did have him. Do I think he is perfect...of course not. I see lots of horses on this site (and other places) I would never consider breeding prospects but someone else really likes. I can respect their opinion and differ with it without being so tactless as to say their horses would be prettier as a gelding. :shocked:


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

1sttimemom said:


> Wow, that's a little rude. I did post asking if people liked him. I never belittled anyone's opinion of him. I only posted a few more snapshots as someone mentioned liking to see horses w/o saddle and such. I personally really liked the colt and had quite a few folks interested in him back when I did have him. Do I think he is perfect...of course not. I see lots of horses on this site (and other places) I would never consider breeding prospects but someone else really likes. I can respect their opinion and differ with it without being so tactless as to say their horses would be prettier as a gelding. :shocked:


That's my opinion, and you asked for opinions, correct? I'm not going to argue with you, in my opinion, the horse is not stallion quality.

There are far too many stallions that are standing that shouldn't be, again my opinion.


----------



## Horseyrider (Aug 8, 2010)

1sttimemom said:


> Wow, that's a little rude. I did post asking if people liked him. I never belittled anyone's opinion of him. I only posted a few more snapshots as someone mentioned liking to see horses w/o saddle and such. I personally really liked the colt and had quite a few folks interested in him back when I did have him. Do I think he is perfect...of course not. I see lots of horses on this site (and other places) I would never consider breeding prospects but someone else really likes. I can respect their opinion and differ with it without being so tactless as to say their horses would be prettier as a gelding. :shocked:


1sttimemom, I don't think anyone here (especially me) meant any harm or hurt feelings. Sometimes we have to be very objective and honest in evaluating horses for conformation and movement. That doesn't mean that a given horse can't be someone's beloved pet or ever find a job worth doing. See if you can separate your heart from your head a little bit, and try not to take such remarks as a personal rebuke or slam on your animal. Since God has yet to make a perfect horse, we as horsemen need to be objective in evaluating the faults, and match a given horse with the type of work he's best suited for. 

Very few stallions are suitable for breeding. Those that are should be truly exceptional individuals with outstanding movement, temperament, and hopefully a sterling show record that demonstrates trainability. I don't think Irish Pixie meant her remarks to degrade your former horse; only to help identify where he might be used to his highest personal potential. 

And, if any of my remarks offended you, please know that I am truly sorry, and that never was my intent. My only objective was to give you the benefit of my judgment, experience, and eye for biomechanics, and you can take it or leave it, your choice.


----------



## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

Absolutely you are entitled to your opinion. As am I and everyone else here. I just wish people could act civil to each other.


----------



## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

HorseyRider, I did not think anything you said was out of line. I can appreciate an honest opinion. 

As I stated, the horse had some qualities I liked. I cannot speak for his current training or anything as I haven't seen him in yrs. I do know he was a very level headed easy going horse. He had a very nice length of neck and clean flexible throatlatch. This is very difficult to find in this breed, many are quite short necked and thick and a fair amount have "swan neck". He had nice clean legs and well formed hooves. Again, you will see quite a few upright dishy feet in this breed. He also had some height to him (for this breed 15.3 is tall) and that was a plus as many morgans are really small. I would absolutely have preferred a little higher tail-set and more level croup but it was not such that impaired his movement. I do see in the video he looked sort up bunch up behind when he moves. And if you notice the saddle is not sitting correctly and I suspect is too narrow in the shoulders for him. When I had him he seemed much more free and floaty at the trot. Not majorly lofty, but nice & square and easy. Like he could cover ground all day long. As for show records...well that's part of why I always sold my young horses. I really didn't have the $$ or talent to promote them. Most of the fillies I sold went to other breeders as broodmare prospects and I take that as a compliment. 

However, I have seen some people be rude and snippy and it's always the same people who end up in arguments. Those people just can't seem to say something in a reasonable manner. It's a pretty sad world.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

There was something about the "You can love him or you can hate him," line that made it sound (to me) as though you were being dismissive of critique... as though you only want to hear the positive comments. That may not have been how it was intended, but that's how it came across to me at least. Can't put my finger on why.

I hear and read it enough that I don't think of "He'd make a better gelding than a stallion" as being rude.


----------



## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I hate evaluating horse from photo's or even videos. It is too easy to get bad angles and get the wrong impression of a horse. 

My impression of the video was that the woman is very hesitant. Either this is a very green horse or a green handler. My thought was that the handler is green and somewhat afraid of the horse. I did not see anything on the horse part to cause this. Anyway, he is not going to be moving normally under these conditions.

I think it's always safe to say a stallion would make a good gelding. The best stallion should make a champion gelding. 
Unless you can bred for a special niche in the market, there are so many horses that need homes it does seem a shame to bred more. On the other hand, if people that care don't breed good horses we will lose some of the breeds, or they will be so changed we won't recognize them. Unfortunately, not many people can afford to bred animals that they will lose lots of money on.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

For goodness's sakes. If you ask for an opinion, you must realize you might get opinions you don't like. I saw nothing that was snippy or rude. But saying things like, "it's always the same people who end up in arguments" is asking for one, for sure.

Aside from all that, he IS a cute little guy.


----------



## malinda (May 12, 2002)

I thought his hind legs/hind end didn't look quite right at the walk, and only a little better in the trot. 

Very cute, yes.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Four white socks on a Morgan. For a long time that was not acceptable. To get more action in the breed, one (at least one) breeder had a stud from a different breed that he was mixing in. It was discovered but everyone got to keep their registration papers. Styles change, so has the Morgan. I'll bet Justin Morgan would be rolling over in his grave to see the changes in the breed.
This horse is well mannered and looks well cared for.


----------



## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

Looks a bit butt high, short[ish] back, leggy, post legs upfront and thin legs in back. He seems a little unwilling and meh in the video, but he's calm and nice for a stallion. I wouldn't breed him. Too many out there who are better than him to breed instead. 
In general, very pretty to look at, love the colors.
Have horrible internet right now, couldn't see the whole video.


----------



## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

He's gorgeous!


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> Four white socks on a Morgan. For a long time that was not acceptable. To get more action in the breed, one (at least one) breeder had a stud from a different breed that he was mixing in. It was discovered but everyone got to keep their registration papers. Styles change, so has the Morgan. I'll bet Justin Morgan would be rolling over in his grave to see the changes in the breed.
> This horse is well mannered and looks well cared for.


When I was little I was taught this: One white sock buy a horse, two white socks try a horse, three white socks deny a horse, four white socks and a white nose take off his hide and throw it to the crows. 

Just an old horseman's tale... I have a nice chestnut sabino mare with three white stockings and a white nose and she still has her hide.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I don't hate the little guy but I wouldn't buy him for the same reason I won't buy many QH's right now. Both breeds were intended to be much stouter working horses and I'm just not fond of the new direction both breeds are heading and they new improved models just won't stand up to the rigors of ranch work over time.


----------



## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

1sttimemom said:


> Wow, that's a little rude. I did post asking if people liked him. I never belittled anyone's opinion of him.


I don't breed horses but have a breeding quality show dog. Let me reassure you that the critiques are not personal - if you ask for opinions, you will surely get them.  And, for what it's worth, even if you don't ask, you will get them anyway.

If you offer up your animal for critique, you will certainly be given the naked truth, and usually the faults will be noted, because if the animal is correct, there is nothing to say. It definitely takes a thick skin, but the critique is worth listening to, even if every person wants to use your animal for stud.

It would be nice if everyone loved every aspect of our breeding animal, but if so, what else would we strive for?  

He is lovely and a breathtaking color. I'm sure his new owner is in love.


----------



## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

For a long time I've seen QH with legs that wouldn't cut it in a working situation but they are show winners. Granted I don't know too much about horse breeds or what they should "look" like and I'm not a fan of shows that put looks before health or conformation. When I saw this horse, I thought, wow how pretty but what I realy liked was "wow, how well-mannered". and wow how well cared for. and wow, what a lucky woman. it never dawned on me that "stallion" was such a trigger word. i was offered a stallion a few years ago, a lovely mild-mannered coming 2 yr old with blue eyes. he was my neighbor's and all he wanted was $250 (memory may be failing, but real cheap) but the gelding of him and his training (he had absolutely no training)- was more than i could handle. so i thought it was the wise choice to let him go. i never once considered breeding him. so if someone like me - run of the mill, horse dreamer has no thought to breed a stallion or to buy one and geld him- it is likely a common thought... i think. - turns out the horse was sold to a meth addict who starved him that winter. i was there the night he was loaded so cruelly into a trailer. he'd never even seen one. one of those "wise" decisions that one regrets for a long time later. 
all this too say that there is nothing wrong with putting a little "personal" touch of softness on our posts... there is nothing wrong with being personal and sensitive even when we are objectively critiquing - long perhaps abstruse post from someone who has been veg'ing out on Budweiser Clydesdales on youtube for the past 3 days....


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Tango said:


> For a long time I've seen QH with legs that wouldn't cut it in a working situation but they are show winners. Granted I don't know too much about horse breeds or what they should "look" like and I'm not a fan of shows that put looks before health or conformation. When I saw this horse, I thought, wow how pretty but what I realy liked was "wow, how well-mannered". and wow how well cared for. and wow, what a lucky woman. it never dawned on me that "stallion" was such a trigger word. i was offered a stallion a few years ago, a lovely mild-mannered coming 2 yr old with blue eyes. he was my neighbor's and all he wanted was $250 (memory may be failing, but real cheap) but the gelding of him and his training (he had absolutely no training)- was more than i could handle. so i thought it was the wise choice to let him go. i never once considered breeding him. so if someone like me - run of the mill, horse dreamer has no thought to breed a stallion or to buy one and geld him- it is likely a common thought... i think. - turns out the horse was sold to a meth addict who starved him that winter. i was there the night he was loaded so cruelly into a trailer. he'd never even seen one. one of those "wise" decisions that one regrets for a long time later.
> all this too say that there is nothing wrong with putting a little "personal" touch of softness on our posts... there is nothing wrong with being personal and sensitive even when we are objectively critiquing - long perhaps abstruse post from someone who has been veg'ing out on Budweiser Clydesdales on youtube for the past 3 days....


If a horse isn't stallion quality he should be gelded, the chances of a backyard horse being of breeding quality is virtually nill. That two year old untrained, uncut horse is an accident waiting to happen- either a "oopsie" breeding, hurting a person, or both. 

The stallion in question has been bred at least once, the OP said she bred him back to his mother in hopes of getting a "perfect flaxen filly" and ended up with a colt instead. To me, the emphasis is on color rather than the much more important conformation. The color emphasis never betters a breed, ever.


----------



## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

Irish Pixie said:


> The stallion in question has been bred at least once, the OP said she bred him back to his mother.


Ack, I missed that. Is that common in horse breeding? (A huge no-no in dog breeding....)


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

offthegrid said:


> Ack, I missed that. Is that common in horse breeding? (A huge no-no in dog breeding....)


Have to say I do object to the term 'backyard breeder' ... most people seem to use it to cover too much territory. I prefer the term "careless" ... as you can have small breeders that produce wonderful animals and you can have breeders who produce big numbers that produce very average animals. After 20 years of breeding/showing dogs and another 25+ years of breeding/showing horses ... on a small scale ... I'm afraid it's one of my pet peeves.

Linebreeding/inbreeding isn't uncommon in some horse breeds, less common in others ... seems to depend on the breed here in the U.S. ... and while that close an inbreeding is not usually seen in either horse or dog breeding, some outstanding animals have come from careful, knowledgeable inbreeding. Like anything else in livestock breeding, it is a gamble, but for someone that does know the genetics behind particular animals, it can certainly intensify desired characteristics.

I've used close linebreeding with dogs successfully, during the 20 years I bred show dogs and I've used both close linebreeding and inbreeding (in my case half-brother/ half-sister) with the horses very successfully.

This filly is the result of one of those inbreedings, is one of the best fillies I've produced, now a coming 3 year old and growing out as nice as her conformation and movement as a baby suggested she would. I did the breeding for two reasons ... I loved the sire of both parents, who was an outstanding mover. I preferred the movement of the son, who was out of a better moving mare than the daughter, so did the breeding hoping to intensify the movement in the offspring by doubling up on the sire. It worked ... the filly, if anything, is a better mover than either parent and definitely better than her dam. 

I will also admit that I hoped for a double dilute from the breeding, which I got as a bonus ... color breeding doesn't necessarily have to be a *bad* thing as long as it is only one of the criteria.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

offthegrid said:


> Ack, I missed that. Is that common in horse breeding? (A huge no-no in dog breeding....)


Not very common but if it's done correctly (I think full sibling breeding is pushing your luck) it can work well, but there is just as much chance of creating a horse with the worst flaws of the line too.

The saying is if the resulting foal is nice it's called linebreeding, if not it's inbreeding.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

A very good friend of mine who has bred show dogs for 40 years has established a very successful line. Her foundation ***** is one of the most titled bitches in the breed and has produced a total of 17 puppies, 16 finished champions, two with multiple championships in foreign countries.

At the last regional specialty, she checked through the pedigrees of the winning dogs in the various classes and nearly 75% of the dogs being shown traced back to that foundation *****.

She has never produced more than 3 or 4 litters a year, usually fewer than that ... and has very rarely done a total outcross.


----------



## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

offthegrid said:


> Ack, I missed that. Is that common in horse breeding? (A huge no-no in dog breeding....)


i missed that too. . as for my neighbor's horse, that's just the way they were. had a stallion in with 3 or 4 mares all the time. not crappy sickly horses just no program or planning... just putting out foals. the one i'm talking about was a real sweetheart from the time he was born. probably a lot of folks out here that keep horses like that neighbor.


----------



## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

The horse is a beautiful color, I love the coloring and like the long socks.

I kept looking at the horse move and although it appears something is off, I did wonder if the socks on the back make it appear that he is off. I have been told by many dressage enthusiasts that they won't buy a horse with socks as it can give the appearance of unevenness at gaits.

I can't tell in the video and wish the horse were moving in a straight line so one could see.

It appears that the longe line is hooked to his bit. That can account for a horse being hesistant to "move out" as they fear being rapped in the mouth by the line. I think it almost appears in the stifle on the right hind (circling to the right) that I noticed the off steps. Another thing too, this horse appears that he might have been forward moving at one time. I can see a bit of that in him. Many times people wanting a more "western" trope will slow a horse down so much that it loses it's forwardness and actually becomes timid to move out. Ends up ruining the gait.

He may not be unsound at all mechanically and actually appears to be more of an "english" type moving horse if allowed to do so.

Was he bred for the more english gaits? I wonder what he would do on a free longe...

Just some thoughts on the video as it is so hard to "review" a horse on a video, not knowing anything much about him from the time he was sold till now. Pony could have fell and hurt his stifle, wrenched his back, saddle could be pinching, he could have been punished for extending, his mouth may hurt or he could have been disciplined on the longe for "going to fast"...one just never knows.

He does have very good manners and seems like he would be a nice 4 h horse. He does not look like a stallion to me at his age, lacks the muscling one would expect to see in a stallion. I stopped the video at 3.54 seconds, did not see testicles. If he has any, they are well hidden as that shot gives a very look at his genital area. I almost believe that this boy is gelded.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Tango said:


> i missed that too. . as for my neighbor's horse, that's just the way they were. had a stallion in with 3 or 4 mares all the time. not crappy sickly horses just no program or planning... just putting out foals. the one i'm talking about was a real sweetheart from the time he was born. probably a lot of folks out here that keep horses like that neighbor.


Which is exactly why there is such a problem with neglect and starvation in the US and there has been since the slaughter ban. My pet peeve is indiscriminate breeding, and particularly when the stallion owner can't afford to have the horse gelded. If you can't afford to geld, you can't afford to own horses. :grumble:


----------



## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

I started to write reply and accidently erased it. So sorry if this somehow shows up twice.

I think this has gotten WAY out of hand. I will explain something altho I have no reason to need to defend my actions. Yes, I did very close line(in)breed this colt back to him dam in hopes of a "perfect" flaxen filly. It is my fav color. There is nothing wrong with having a wish list for any particular crossing. I didn't say color was my only criteria! This particular mare was a full sister to a national champion hunter, gr-daughter of many time national champ western pleasure stallion, sire was winner of many open and breed show awards in hand and western pleasure. The mare's dam was champion in hand and driving. And a long list of other successful show and using horses in her pedigree. I never showed my mare as I flat out didn't have the funds to do so. I was in college and lived on my own when I bought her. The mare was a nice quality mare. In fact I was probably ONLY able to afford her due to her being 5 yrs, hardly halter broke, and her owner ended up going through bankruptcy due to job loss. The owner had been a friend/neighbor of mine growing up and had bought the mare as future broodmare prospect as a yearling for more than she later sold her to me for. She needed $$ and didn't want the horses part of the bankruptcy. And I had known and loved this horse since she was a yearling. So I bought her, trained her as my personal trail mount, did endurance ride, parades, countless trails, even local gymkhana for fun. The mare was very nice to ride and certainly had a wonderful mind and gosh was she pretty. She was also a very easy breeder, settling 1 try nearly every time and sadly this is not as normal as it should be. Many broodmares take a lot of work to settle and stay in foal. Mare fertility is thought to be a highly inheritable trait so another quality to consider. Over the yrs she produced several nice foals for me. I had people waiting, asking about her upcoming foals. I sold the foals for nice prices, certainly more than the average going rate at that time and hardly had to advertise them. She was bred to assorted morgan stallions and I knew what qualities she produced consistently despite the sire. The mare was getting old and this inbreeding was done with careful consideration and via AI in hopes of producing the closest replica of her for a future broodmare. The colt had already produced 2 nice morgan foals from me as "testers" out of 3 mares. All 3 were nice foals, 2 sold quite well. 1 colt was injured in an accident, sound but blemished was given to a previous customer of mine to use as a competitive carriage driving prospect. So this linebreeding was not done willy nilly without careful consideration. It had a plan, purpose, and yes a wish for color as the cherry on top! 


BTW, I am a PROUD "backyard" breeder. I studied bloodlines and qualities of the horses I was interested in. I had a consistent "look" I strived to produce (not just a color look). I have been involved with the morgan breed since I was in my early teens. I was riding, doing gymkhana, open shows, competitive trails, parades, horse camping, and just tons of riding from 3rd grade on other breeds. I put myself thru school by working at Morgan and Arab breeding farms. I am currently 40 yrs old so have at least a few yrs horse experience. I have NOT produced huge quantities of horses from my little "backyard". But I am proud that I have produced some nice horses right in my own backyard. You can think what you will but none was done without careful consideration and a plan.

I can appreciate constructive criticism of conformation or gait, etc. I can gather value from other's opinion as why or why not they would use any horse for breeding, show, sport, or etc. But I think those opinions can be stated politely and without just assuming the interested party is some clueless idiot or is breeding without any care for the future of the offspring, etc.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

If you and the new owner are happy with the results, that's all that matters. As a breeder, you establish your breeding program with specific goals and simply accept that some will love what you produce and others will not. You can spend a lot of time justifying you program but it all comes down to personal preference and if someone doesn't prefer what you produce, it's unlikely they'll change their mind.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Well, the drama has gotten way out of hand anyway. :grin:

I didn't call anyone on this forum a "backyard breeder" in my opinion it's derogatory, and no one has indiscriminately bred anything that I know of. One of the posters gave a perfect description of a backyard breeder, "had a stallion in with 3 or 4 mares all the time. not crappy sickly horses just no program or planning... just putting out foals." And again, the chances of a breeding quality horse coming out of a situation like this is virtually nil. 

I did say that the OP's horse (that _she_ put up for critique) would make a better gelding, and in my opinion he wasn't stallion quality. I also said that her breeding program had more color emphasis than I would ever consider. Never said she was a backyard breeder. 

In my opinion, 90% (or more) of standing stallions should not be breeding, and if I were Queen of all things they wouldn't be, but sadly I'm not so I just have to deal with it. :thumb:


----------



## starjj (May 2, 2005)

WOW This board is tough (but then I knew that) If you ask for opinions you are going to get them, if your going to be sensitive about someone saying your horse is not stallion quality don't ask for opinions.

I would give the opinion (and I am far far from an expert) that he lacks muscling in his rear but then maybe that is the way Morgans are bred. I always thought Morgans were working horses.

Off topic

Just two days ago someone here posted on FB that they had two horses they couldn't keep off the neighbors property and the neighbor was going to shoot them. The owner was desperately trying to give away two horses (she was not sure of the breed, didn't know the ages, and one was not halter broke even) yet she had bought them for her 10 year old daughter. Makes you want to scream.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I think for comparison's sake, everyone should go post a picture of their horse or a rider on COTH (Chronicle of the Horse) and see what THEY have to say. Then come back here and bask in the glow of kindness and support to heal after having yourself, horse, child, whomever ripped to shreds.


----------



## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I think for comparison's sake, everyone should go post a picture of their horse or a rider on COTH (Chronicle of the Horse) and see what THEY have to say. Then come back here and bask in the glow of kindness and support to heal after having yourself, horse, child, whomever ripped to shreds.


LOL THAT'S the truth!


----------



## Tango (Aug 19, 2002)

well i will post here when i start shopping. won't be my horse yet so i won't :sob: when the criticism pours in - instead can be grateful that there is such a virtual room of sound advice.... but :umno:maybe won't post pics when he's mine or maybe will only post pics taken after dusk lol.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I think for comparison's sake, everyone should go post a picture of their horse or a rider on COTH (Chronicle of the Horse) and see what THEY have to say. Then come back here and bask in the glow of kindness and support to heal after having yourself, horse, child, whomever ripped to shreds.


Oh, my yes! COTH is a real education in comments that range from *snark* to downright feeding frenzy!

I read some of the threads because there is some very useful information on bloodlines, etc., but I rarely post.


----------



## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

COTH - I quit posting there years ago. There is good information there but you had better have a thick skin in order to sift through it. I read sometimes, but I quit posting years ago. I would never put my child on there for a critique. Ever. Uhm never post that you have a TWH on COTH. You will certainly be tarred, feathered and run out of the internet on a rail.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

sidepasser said:


> Uhm never post that you have a TWH on COTH. You will certainly be tarred, feathered and run out of the internet on a rail.


A QH is just as bad ... and for ponies, think Hackney Pony!


----------



## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Or gypsies on COTH!!!


----------



## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

That's too bad. I have never read on that board. Sounds like I don't want to. OMG, I have had a TWH so I would be in the tarred and feathered group.


----------



## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Oh, Honey....I have both a gypsy and a TWH


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

My first personal experience with the COTH forums and the people there was many years ago when I posted about a lovely little mare I bred who was doing very well in hunter pony classes ... who was <gasp> out of a Hackney Pony mare! Some of the worst of the critics did back off after I posted a photo of the mare in action, however, other than to mutter she was probably "an exception" and I was just lucky!


----------



## Horseyrider (Aug 8, 2010)

COTH can be a wonderful resource; but it seems to thrive on a culture of bullying and one-upsmanship. People who know a lot and are secure, mature adults don't participate in that sort of dogpiling. 

Expertise with horses does not necessarily mean skill or tact in human relationships.

BTW, your pony is adorable, SFM. There's a great deal to like here.


----------



## PNWest (Mar 15, 2010)

I have watched this thread with interest, as I wondered how the horse people here treated each other. To the OP, perhaps you should have qualified your question by asking if people liked the color of the stallion. 

To ask if a reader liked a horse, that opens up the forum to the 'critical eye.' of the beholder concerning good and bad points observed about the animal.

There have been a lot of suppositions, but is there concrete proof the horse is a gelding or a stallion?

If there is no proof either way, the harshness of some of the posts is undeserved.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

PNWest said:


> I have watched this thread with interest, as I wondered how the horse people here treated each other. To the OP, perhaps you should have qualified your question by asking if people liked the color of the stallion.
> 
> To ask if a reader liked a horse, that opens up the forum to the 'critical eye.' of the beholder concerning good and bad points observed about the animal.
> 
> ...


The OP calls the horse a stallion in the title and in the very first post. Are we to suppose she is too stupid to know the difference or that she is a liar? 
Thank you for holding back till the very end with your very critical pronouncement though. I'm sure we've all been waiting with bated breath.


----------



## PNWest (Mar 15, 2010)

Well, I read that when she had the horse it was a stallion. She does not know at the moment if it is a gelding or intact.

You have reinforced my opinion.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

B-but..... I don't get it. The title of the whole thread is "Do you like this stallion?" It's true that she might not know for sure his current status but I'm pretty sure we were expected to evaluate him AS a stallion. If the question had been "Do you like this horse?" it would have been a much different conversation.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

PNWest said:


> Well, I read that when she had the horse it was a stallion. She does not know at the moment if it is a gelding or intact.
> 
> You have reinforced my opinion.


And you have just confirmed mine. The arguing had passed and the thread had moved on and you just picked it back open again. Looks like you got what you came for.:thumb:


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Can someone find a recent photo of the under side of this horse, so we can settle this hot issue? :catfight:


----------



## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

PNWest said:


> There have been a lot of suppositions, but is there concrete proof the horse is a gelding or a stallion?
> 
> If there is no proof either way, the harshness of some of the posts is undeserved.


The thread asked whether people liked the stallion, therefore people looked at this as a breeding question.

There are many threads, and entire discussion boards about "what do you think of my horse? <3 " that are entirely devoted to gushing about the horse in question.

But, in my opinion, a thread titled "do you like this stallion?" is a breeding question.

Again, as I mentioned in my original post -- if you ask, you will receive. BUT, if you develop a thick skin and listen, you will usually get good feedback, and at least in the comparison to my own breeding quality dog - you will get confirmation of what you believe to be assets and faults. Which is a great feeling when you hear the same things you already thought.

If you post hoping for pats on the back and high fives, you are likely to be disappointed, no matter how great the animal might be....because none of them are perfect.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Gelding, stallion or mare matters little to me. If someone asks me if I like it or what I think, they're going to get an honest opinion. If I don't care for conformation or I feel, it isn't breed standards, I'm going to mention that too because I'm not fond of seeing good working horses replaced with refined horses that break down with use.

Colour means nothing in my world and neither does pretty or refined.


----------



## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

*I posted that I did not think the horse was still a stallion as if you PAUSE the video at 3:54 you can see a pretty good shot of the horse's nether regions as he makes a turn. *I did not see anything to indicate said horse was a stallion hanging down. 

Of course he could be under endowed and too embarrassed to let anyone see. That was one of the first things I checked because after having stallions for years, this horse did not display the physical aspects that I would expect a stallion to have.

Now back to the fray...


----------



## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

sidepasser said:


> COTH - I quit posting there years ago. There is good information there but you had better have a thick skin in order to sift through it. I read sometimes, but I quit posting years ago. I would never put my child on there for a critique. Ever. Uhm never post that you have a TWH on COTH. You will certainly be tarred, feathered and run out of the internet on a rail.


I don't know if you know this SP, but I came to HT because of you, you posted about it on COTH.


----------



## malinda (May 12, 2002)

And I learned about COTH because of someone (can't remember who) here who mentioned it.

I actually really like reading the posts on COTH - there are some very knowledgeable and experienced riders and breeders who post there.


----------



## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

I give credit to a lot of the Cothers who are experts in their disciplines as well as there are a couple of farriers that are very good who post there. I read there but do not post anymore, I have one of the "bad" breeds and do not need the stress of being told how horrible the TWH industry is even though my girl is flat shod.

I still support one of the 501C charities I have supported through COTH, I just send my donation direction to the charity instead of participating in the auctions on line through COTH.


----------



## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

my first horse was a morgan mare. i must say im shocked by the way this breed has developed.. when i first saw the photo my first impression was a rocky mtn horse. they are small and refined. and similar coloration is desired in that breed. i couldnt believe it is a morgan.

justin morgan aint the only one that would be rolling over in his grave.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Dead Rabbit said:


> my first horse was a morgan mare. i must say im shocked by the way this breed has developed.. when i first saw the photo my first impression was a rocky mtn horse. they are small and refined. and similar coloration is desired in that breed. i couldnt believe it is a morgan.
> 
> justin morgan aint the only one that would be rolling over in his grave.


My first horse was a Morgan mare as well- black with only a small white star. She was the old type with heavier bone, a versatile horse that could work and ride, like Morgan's were meant to be. She is what I use as my breed standard.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

My first horse was also an old-style Morgan. Dark bay with a star, strip and snip. He was the best guy. Still miss him. He died just a few years ago at 30. He was only 15H and the thoroughbred crowd laughed at 5'8" me on a 15H gelding but he could jump like nobody's business. And in the field....wow. No one laughed then. That horse had so much heart.


----------



## RideBarefoot (Jun 29, 2008)

Lisa, my heart horse (old line QH) who died last year was 14.2, and I'm 5'10"! But my favorite ride- he could do anything!


----------



## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

I would love to know the reg'd names of those great 1st morgans you guys had. I can look up their pedigrees and see what bloodlines you consider the traditional type. It is interesting as some diff family lines have a bit diff look to them within the breed. 








This is a morgan stallion I owned in the past (long since deceased) and is a very good example of the traditional morgan in conformation, color, and breeding. I think he is about 21 yrs old here and was a fatty for sure!


----------



## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

And a non-traditional color but 100% foundation bred morgan stallion I have leased in the past for breeding purposes.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I don't remember my mares full name (we got her when I was two) we called her Cricket. I remember my mother saying that she was 100% (or nearly 100%) Lippitt. She was foaled sometime around 1958 in Vermont. 

I've always been a fan of the Government bred Morgans too, like General Gates-


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I have no clue what his registered name was anymore. I got him in 85 and renamed him and didn't bother to transfer anything with the registry as he was a gelding and breed doesn't matter in the English performance world and I had no interest at all in the breed shows.
I got him when I lived in MA and he was sold out of Vermont.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

What difference does it make what bloodlines people had. They were not breeding and just simply prefer a certain style. 

You can argue with someone until you grow purple spots but you likely won't convince someone who prefers a stockier horse that more refined is better.


----------



## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

Geez...I wasn't arguing about type or anything else in that post, just asking about bloodlines as I said it is interesting what people like and diff families often have diff "looks". I was just wondering what bloodlines they had in the morgans they liked.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I wish I knew a little more about some of the early 1900s Morgan bloodlines. I do know that there were Morgan stallions owned by the Remount Service that were loaned out to breeders and made available to ranchers to upgrade the quality of foals produced for cavalry mounts.

I was always told, as a child, that someone 'locally' had a Remount stallion that was Morgan and my grandfather had bred a mare to him. This was the mare I rode from the time I was 10 until I was in my teens ... and she did look like what I thought a Morgan should look like, but never had any more information than that.

My father said they had a Hambletonian stallion from the Remount service for several years as well, at their ranch in SD and apparently it was a fairly common practice but I have no idea what was involved in obtaining one of these stallions.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

SFM in KY said:


> I wish I knew a little more about some of the early 1900s Morgan bloodlines. I do know that there were Morgan stallions owned by the Remount Service that were loaned out to breeders and made available to ranchers to upgrade the quality of foals produced for cavalry mounts.
> 
> I was always told, as a child, that someone 'locally' had a Remount stallion that was Morgan and my grandfather had bred a mare to him. This was the mare I rode from the time I was 10 until I was in my teens ... and she did look like what I thought a Morgan should look like, but never had any more information than that.
> 
> My father said they had a Hambletonian stallion from the Remount service for several years as well, at their ranch in SD and apparently it was a fairly common practice but I have no idea what was involved in obtaining one of these stallions.


Two of the four main Morgan lines were used to some extent in the United States Remount Service- the line that is called Government and from that came the Working Western line. These two lines are the most out crossed to other breeds, the other two, Lippitt and Brunk are much more "pure" lines. 

Thoroughbreds were more popular than Morgans in the Remount Service.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I know there were a lot of Thoroughbreds used in the program ... also Arabs, Morgans and Standardbreds (I think they were referred to as Hambletonians in the earlier years). Sheridan, WY, which was our 'local' town was one of the major remount posts. 

There were a number of very active horse breeders in the area, along with several British 'expatriats' who established big ranches in the area in the late 1800s. There is a still-active polo team that was established in 1898 and I can remember my grandfather talking about jumping competitions and steeplechases being held in the area as well.


----------



## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

for some reason i was recently reading the morgan horse is considered critical as a breed.

they certainly aint for me, and more than likely will never have another....but i was shocked to read this.


----------



## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

Dead Rabbit said:


> for some reason i was recently reading the morgan horse is considered critical as a breed.
> 
> they certainly aint for me, and more than likely will never have another....but i was shocked to read this.


It's really a small breed compared to Q, TB, & arabs. I haven't looked it up for a while but it used to be the American livestock conservancy considered certain bloodlines/families of morgans to be critically endangered.


----------



## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

The gov't remount used more TB than anything I think. They also used an assortment of breeds as you mention. The stallions were stood out for a nominal fee or for a colt buy-back option where the govt had 1st choice to buy the foal when it reached a certain age (often 2-3 yrs I think). Bigger ranches could lease stallions if they had lots of mares, again the aim was to upgrade local using horses and provide a pool of stock for the gov't to choose from. Some stallions were also loaned out to Reservations. I have some friends who are REALLY into the history and if you have a name of the family or ranch they may be able to tell you the horse involved.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

1sttimemom said:


> I haven't looked it up for a while but it used to be the American livestock conservancy considered certain bloodlines/families of morgans to be critically endangered.


I'm not sure if they still are, but at one time both Hackney Horses and Cleveland Bay horses were considered endangered as well.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Traditional Morgans are critical according to The Livestock Conservancy. There are many breeds on their list, I never knew Belgians were on any type of watch list, there are several breeders in my area. 

http://www.livestockconservancy.org/index.php/heritage/internal/conservation-priority-list#Horses


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Most restered breeds have a written breed standard or at least a general understanding of what the breed should look like. I think we can agree that Justin Morgan's horse was fast, not too tall and strong enough for field work. Right? For many years any coloring on a Morgan was a bad thing. Not that four white socks and a blaze isn't down right beautiful, breeders sought to keep the Morgan like Justin's original.

But most breeds "evolve", styles change. Anyone with a keen eyes and a couple decades of experience have seen the evolution. I'm not just picking on Morgans it happens in most horse breeds and cattle, sheep, pigs, German Shepards, you name it.
Some of the "evolution" of some breeds defy the laws of nature. This happened a few years back with the Morgan breed. Some breeder of Champion Morgans was keeping a stallion of another breed in the back barn. Got caught and the Association opted to allow all the resulting offspring to retain their registered status. Today, with most breeds requiring DNA testing, that is much harder to do.
I don't write this to create a debate or pick on Morgans. I don't have a dog in this fight. Just some information to explain how the Morgan has changed. If you wanted a copy of Justin Morgan's horse, you may be too late. If you want something fancier, that is available in many Morgans.


----------



## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

IMO, the old-style Morgans and TWHs are beautiful, versatile animals. What they've become today? Meh.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I don't believe anyone can judge a horse on a photograph or a video clip. You may think you saw something, but hard to tell for sure. Here is a photo of a Percheron Stallion. He was a National Grand Champion a few years ago. Sired many show winners. He is the modern type, lots of action, head held high, but not likely to hold up under daily hard farm work. While certified the best of the best, I'm sure some can find fault with even him.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> Most restered breeds have a written breed standard or at least a general understanding of what the breed should look like. I think we can agree that Justin Morgan's horse was fast, not too tall and strong enough for field work. Right? For many years any coloring on a Morgan was a bad thing. Not that four white socks and a blaze isn't down right beautiful, breeders sought to keep the Morgan like Justin's original.
> 
> But most breeds "evolve", styles change. Anyone with a keen eyes and a couple decades of experience have seen the evolution. I'm not just picking on Morgans it happens in most horse breeds and cattle, sheep, pigs, German Shepards, you name it.
> Some of the "evolution" of some breeds defy the laws of nature. This happened a few years back with the Morgan breed. Some breeder of Champion Morgans was keeping a stallion of another breed in the back barn. Got caught and the Association opted to allow all the resulting offspring to retain their registered status. Today, with most breeds requiring DNA testing, that is much harder to do.
> I don't write this to create a debate or pick on Morgans. I don't have a dog in this fight. Just some information to explain how the Morgan has changed. If you wanted a copy of Justin Morgan's horse, you may be too late. If you want something fancier, that is available in many Morgans.


There are still some breeders that kept Morgans as Morgans- the Lippitt, Lambert, and Brunk lines all are higher percentage back to Figure. It was after the American Morgan Horse Association closed the stud book in 1948 that foals with Arab and Saddlebred blood were registered as Morgan, _way after_.  

Dang, if I wanted a Saddlebred I'd buy a Saddlebred. I personally really like a Morab but I don't want it registered as a Morgan.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

haypoint said:


> Some of the "evolution" of some breeds defy the laws of nature. This happened a few years back with the Morgan breed. Some breeder of Champion Morgans was keeping a stallion of another breed in the back barn. Got caught and the Association opted to allow all the resulting offspring to retain their registered status.


Same thing happened with the Quarter Horses as well, with including TBs (which was allowed) but those crosses had some registration restrictions so there were some registered as regular AQHA rather than Appendix AQHA. Long time ago and I don't remember all of the details of the settlement, but remember it being an issue.

I'm sure it's happened any number of times in other breeds as well before the advent of DNA testing and DNA testing being a requirement along with the registration.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> Dang, if I wanted a Saddlebred I'd buy a Saddlebred. I personally really like a Morab but I don't want it registered as a Morgan.



:thumb:


----------



## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

As I said before, everyone has a diff opinion and is entitled to it. 

Well the one big breeder in particular who was caught with saddlebreds crossed to morgans was caught and the said horses tested and kicked out of the registry and their resulting offpring too. She had several high $$ grand champion park and in-hand show horses and was also standing stallions, etc. That lady was also kicked out of EVER doing any biz with AMHA or being allowed to register any horses with them ever again. There are other situations like this and the AMHA always made attempts to catch the false registered horses. There were some huge lawsuits and AMHA nearly went bankrupt just defending itself. A registry can only do so much and sadly the integrity of those breeders is to blame, not the registry organizations that were actually victims of fraud. There are always going to be some who slipped thru before blood/DNA tests were done. There is nothing to help that. You hear those rumors in every breed. Arabs, supposedly the most pure of breeds, had a big deal yrs back to of breeders crossing in saddlebred and such to gain size and high knee action. 

Interestingly, the "high white rule" was thrown out exactly due to blood typing proving the parentage of the horses with white above the knee or blue eyes, etc. I know this for a fact having had a foal who had a small belly spot. I had testing done and submitted everything & still had to wait nearly 2 yrs to get papers on him. I fought the registry HARD on that as there was proof in the pudding so to speak. 










Now this one is NOT a purebred morgan, she was 3/4. Had been a working ranch horse and broodmare for a large ranch in Montana. I bought her as an aged mare hoping to produce some high % tobiano part morgans. Much as there are "pintabians". Sadly she was over 20 yrs and I couldn't get her in foal without quite a bit of vet work and it wasn't worth the expense for me. I did use her to ride quite a bit and here is she and I at a Pinto show in Denver. The mare had some VERY hard to find morgan breeding behind her, even if she was not pure still would have been nice to preserve that blood. Pic probably almost 20 yrs old


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I can't see most of your pictures, 1sttimemom. 

And there _were_ other breeds "snuck" in after the Morgan stud book was closed, as late as the 60s and 70s.


----------



## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I think that all breeds have been subject to cheating breeders trying to make more money or win at shows, not just Morgans. I knew an old horse trader years ago who was asked all the time for a certain color, markings and sex to go with papers someone had.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

haypoint said:


> I don't believe anyone can judge a horse on a photograph or a video clip. You may think you saw something, but hard to tell for sure. Here is a photo of a Percheron Stallion. He was a National Grand Champion a few years ago. Sired many show winners. He is the modern type, lots of action, head held high, but not likely to hold up under daily hard farm work. While certified the best of the best, I'm sure some can find fault with even him.


He's too "hitchy" for me.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> He's too "hitchy" for me.


OK, here is a less hitchy mare you can judge


----------



## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> I can't see most of your pictures, 1sttimemom.
> 
> And there _were_ other breeds "snuck" in after the Morgan stud book was closed, as late as the 60s and 70s.


 Sorry about the pics. I linked from an old website of mine and apparently the server won't allow that. The pics are all mine, taken by me or my family. Will see if I can find the copies elsewhere.

As for horses being snuck in...um.... it has happened much more recently than the 70's. Hate to say but the breeder I mentioned was doing this in 80's and early 90's I believe before she was caught. There are other lines suspected but you can only prove by tracking back so far with testing then you get to the days before testing and there is no way to verify. Sadly this happens in all breeds. There is always someone willing to cheat. It's harder of course with blood/DNA tests.


----------



## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

This is another pic of the classic looking and bloodline bay morgan stallion (now deceased) that I used to own. Just snapshots from my own backyard yrs ago. Again, he is over 20 yrs here and a bit on the overweight side. I hope this one comes thru.


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

haypoint said:


> OK, here is a less hitchy mare you can judge


I sure like that mare of yours, haypoint. Good heartgirth. Good meaty gaskin and forearm. Good sized hoofhead. Plenty of room to carry a foal. Nice feminine mare without losing substance.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

1sttimemom said:


> This is another pic of the classic looking and bloodline bay morgan stallion (now deceased) that I used to own. Just snapshots from my own backyard yrs ago. Again, he is over 20 yrs here and a bit on the overweight side.


Picture came through fine. He looks a lot like some of the older Morgans one of the ranchers used to have years ago, one of the few local ranchers that used/bred Morgans as stock horses rather than Quarter Horses.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

1sttimemom said:


> This is another pic of the classic looking and bloodline bay morgan stallion (now deceased) that I used to own. Just snapshots from my own backyard yrs ago. Again, he is over 20 yrs here and a bit on the overweight side. I hope this one comes thru.



I like the classic style morgans and would have a problem buying one because they were made for work. The new and improved versions I have encountered were not suited to work and didn't have the temperament the older bloodlines did.


----------



## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I doubt at this point I'll have another horse, but I still love them. I am curious, most of the ads I see for Morgans, a breed that really appeals to me, come across as horses with a "hotter" temperament. Were the old time Morgans sweet but really high energy? Or is this "hotter" thing a more modern development? If I did get a horse, I'd want something sweet, quiet, mellow and easy to live with, care for, etc.

That said, my last horse (my avatar) was 3/4 Arab and entirely fit the bill! lol


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

I think the Morgans have been bred *hotter* for the show ring, much as the Arabs have been in the last 20 years or more. Lots of knee and hock action in the 'park horse' classes ... a lot of 'presence' in the halter classes ... both of which translate to 'hot' in many cases.

Unfortunate, but if it is what the judges put up, that is what the trainers suggest to the owners ... and eventually it's difficult to find the nice, sensible, sane animals the breed was noted for to begin with.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

SFM in KY said:


> I think the Morgans have been bred *hotter* for the show ring, much as the Arabs have been in the last 20 years or more. Lots of knee and hock action in the 'park horse' classes ... a lot of 'presence' in the halter classes ... both of which translate to 'hot' in many cases.
> 
> Unfortunate, but if it is what the judges put up, that is what the trainers suggest to the owners ... and eventually it's difficult to find the nice, sensible, sane animals the breed was noted for to begin with.



That's exactly why good sane ranch horses now command top dollar


----------



## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

Morgans have always been on the energetic side, even early historic accounts describe them as having "nervous energy", "active" and so on. I don't think being active and energetic is the same as crazy. I haven't had any morgans that were horribly spooky, nasty tempered, or just plain nutty. I have had some who were quite sensitive and super smart, liked to get out and do something. Sadly, SFM is right with some of the very park and halter bred horses...super hot, hot, hot! They want bug eyed, flipped up tails, prancing, dancing, snorting, etc. When I worked at some arab farms I saw the same thing. Many of the halter arabs were not suitable to ride, some were flat out nuts. Every breed has good and bad points. I would never say all arabs are nuts, in fact have been around some amazing ones.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I've never been a huge Arab fan because I used to board at a saddle seat/Park horse barn (I lived nearby so they let me keep my Morgan there) and it was nuts. But I knew a woman several years ago near Spokane with a Shagya Arabian stallion and he was magnificent. 16.1H, great bone and temperament. I would love to see more of them.


----------



## 1sttimemom (Mar 1, 2005)

http://www1.snapfish.com/snapfish/s...otsc=SHR/otsi=SPIClink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/

Morgan disposition! A filly I raised and sold, one of our last yrs having a real foal crop. We just got so busy with the kids.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I've never been a huge Arab fan because I used to board at a saddle seat/Park horse barn (I lived nearby so they let me keep my Morgan there) and it was nuts. But I knew a woman several years ago near Spokane with a Shagya Arabian stallion and he was magnificent. 16.1H, great bone and temperament. I would love to see more of them.


One of the best horses I've owned in 65 years of owning/riding horses was a purebred Arab stallion from heavily linebred Raffles lines. I bought him as an untrained 3 year old and rode him for 5 years as a stallion. He held his own in ranch work against Quarter Horses. You could ride and haul him with mares anywhere and never know he wasn't a gelding. I did geld him eventually, so my daughter could show him in 4H ... she showed him at halter and in western pleasure. I showed him western pleasure and sidesaddle in Arab classes. After my daughter graduated, I loaned him to a family friend who was in a college offering a degree in horsemastership and she showed him English pleasure, dressage and driving.

He would do absolutely anything he was asked to do to the limit of his ability and never, ever made a bad move with anyone.

I've had a couple of good, solid Arab broodmares ... and also had a few that were silly idiots!


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

SFM in KY said:


> One of the best horses I've owned in 65 years of owning/riding horses was a purebred Arab stallion from heavily linebred Raffles lines. I bought him as an untrained 3 year old and rode him for 5 years as a stallion. He held his own in ranch work against Quarter Horses. You could ride and haul him with mares anywhere and never know he wasn't a gelding. I did geld him eventually, so my daughter could show him in 4H ... she showed him at halter and in western pleasure. I showed him western pleasure and sidesaddle in Arab classes. After my daughter graduated, I loaned him to a family friend who was in a college offering a degree in horsemastership and she showed him English pleasure, dressage and driving.
> 
> He would do absolutely anything he was asked to do to the limit of his ability and never, ever made a bad move with anyone.
> 
> I've had a couple of good, solid Arab broodmares ... and also had a few that were silly idiots!


I remember an OLD book called The Arabian Cowhorse. Loved it when I was a kid. 

Have you ever seen any of the Shagyas? This one was really impressive.


----------



## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I remember an OLD book called The Arabian Cowhorse. Loved it when I was a kid.
> 
> Have you ever seen any of the Shagyas? This one was really impressive.


The ranch I bought my stallion from in WY worked cattle with their Arabs and one of the older big-time breeders in CO worked cattle with theirs.

I have only seen one Shagya stallion ... years ago. He was a breed representative for the breed at a Horse Expo in Colorado ... early 90s. Very impressive horse.


----------



## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I don't think the problem is so much the horses as the owners. Some people encourage the horses acting badly, and the horses are smart enough to figure out how to get the upper hand. I think many that look like idiots when some people are handling them could seem like totally different horses with a real horseman handling them. Of course, a few have serious problems, but not as many as it seems.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

found a couple of not great pics of the Shagya I knew:


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I like the Shagya a lot.


----------



## Belldandy (Feb 16, 2014)

GrannyCarol said:


> After watching the video, I'm pretty sure he's not a stallion, but a gelding at this point. He's certainly eye catching, very pretty. One thing you can be glad of is that he is obviously being well cared for and well handled. I've been following Morgans for a while, I am not at all likely to get another horse at this point, but I just like them. From what I've seen, many Morgans are slow to mature and fill in or are fairly lightly built. It's hard to tell from the video, but he seems quite light on his feet, I like that.
> 
> I'm not the expert to fully critique him, but gosh he's pretty! Ok, maybe I'm a bit of a sucker for the color too.


I'm not knowledgeable about horse conformation but I love his color and stockings. Don't know if that counts.


----------



## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I just love the pictures of that Shagya Arab - what a wonderful horse! All Arab and solid as can be. Gorgeous, thanks for sharing that. 

I've had two half Arabs in my horse career. One had run wild until she was 7 and then rather hardly treated. She was the sweetest thing ever and wonderful to ride and train. She was pretty spooky though, I really didn't know anything about desensitizing her when I was in my teens. I don't consider her crazy though, just had a rough start. The other was my 3/4 Arab/Pinto gal, she was the kindest, gentlest horse I ever knew. She loved to play "Wild Arabian" running around her pasture, but took care of me in my insecurity, poor balance and 25 years out of practice condition. I still miss her.


----------

