# I believe Canada may be headed towards a civil war.



## Work horse (Apr 7, 2012)

And I'm not looking forward to it. At the very least, we could be facing major travel/commerce disruptions. It's scary. Definitely time to up the prep factor here. 

(Although I know my fellow HT's are usually on top of the news, just search "idle no more" if you haven't heard of any of this chaos).


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

?????Please don't tell NL,she thinks she lives in morally superior paradise


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## zito (Dec 21, 2006)

Civil war? Not a chance. Massive disruptions? Possible, maybe even likely. I certainly hope that this time law enforcement does its job, not like in Caledonia.


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

zito said:


> Civil war? Not a chance. Massive disruptions? Possible, maybe even likely. I certainly hope that this time law enforcement does its job, not like in Caledonia.


They already aren't. Look up the OPP refusing to enforce an injunction granted by a judge to CN to have Mohawks removed from blocking the CN line (and damaging signal equipment). Which is a double failure by the OPP since CN shouldn't have had to go to a judge in the first place.


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## longshot38 (Dec 19, 2006)

zant said:


> ?????Please don't tell NL,she thinks she lives in morally superior paradise


the rest of us up here know better.


dean


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Please explain why and what this means. You're southern neighbors are interested.


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## Work horse (Apr 7, 2012)

In a nutshell, natives are protesting by blocking roads and railways and threatening to cripple the economy if they don't get exactly what they want. Police are not getting involved. Government attempts to meet and negotiate with Native leaders have been just a circus. They are increasingly being viewed as terrorists and people are getting a little... um, annoyed.... There's a lot of history here but things are coming to a head. I'm quite honestly scared.


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## Work horse (Apr 7, 2012)

Here's a link with some background info and a disturbing (and embarrassing) video released from the Ontario Provincial Police http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ontari...f-idle-no-more-blockades-on-youtube-1.1115986


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Little known fact... a couple of miles from where they were protesting, the CN and CP lines running between Toronto and Ottawa and Montreal actually cross over one another on the Tyendinaga MT. A single person with a wagon load of hay or logs could easily burn the overpass where they cross and cripple the only rail links between east and west for weeks if not months. And this is less than a mile from the 401.


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## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

And I thought you were going to have some fun at the "Frenchies" expense. How disappointing. At least the natives will fight longer than the average French do - or maybe French Canadians have stronger wills.

See what happens when you take away a populations ability to defend themselves.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

thanks for telling us what is causing this confrontation and possible eruption of disagreement (see how polite I said that )


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Interesting - haven't seen anything about it on the news down here.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I hope news will still be posted on this thread. There are a LOT of Canadians here that this may impact, and they need to know this, and we Americans need to know we are not the only peoples with ongoing issues that are ruffling the population.


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

There will not be a civil war! It's going to come to a head quickly if they block the highway to the oil sands. No one, especially Harper will put up with that disruption. I am looking forward to that day!

Have you noticed the age of the protestors? Do you think a normal young white person would be able to take time off of work to have a sit in or blockade? We are working to support them so they can protest and whine about how bad they're treated!!gre: (you can tell I'm a ******* Albertan  )

You would think those indians would have picked a better slogan the "idle no more" We thought it meant they'd be getting off their fat  and getting jobs...Wrong!
It's time to do away with the treaty rights and for them to take responsibility for themselves already.


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## notbutanapron (Jun 30, 2011)

I mean this to be with as little offence and as much hilarity as possible - but if Canada has a Civil War before America does, I'm gonna lose a lot of bets.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

YuccaFlatsRanch said:


> And I thought you were going to have some fun at the "Frenchies" expense. How disappointing. At least the natives will fight longer than the average French do - or maybe French Canadians have stronger wills.
> 
> See what happens when you take away a populations ability to defend themselves.



Hey now, I'm related to a lot of those French Canadians.
I can't speak for them all but the Family I know would stand and Fight.
My Fathers Mother is The tie to that side.


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## canadiangirl (Jul 25, 2004)

I think "civil war" is more than a little premature ; )


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## Work horse (Apr 7, 2012)

canadiangirl said:


> I think "civil war" is more than a little premature ; )


I know you're right. But I am totally expecting chaos. I am wishing for -30 weather today at all blockade locations. But I'm kind of mean like that. 

LOL @ notbutanapron!! 

Anyways, I first started getting really upset about this when "surprise" blockades stopped traffic on a major highway (which runs through the middle of nowhere) on the Saturday before Christmas. People who were travelling on this highway to get home to see their families, were stuck in their cars for 2+ hours (probably running the engine the whole time because it was about -20C that day). Maybe 2 hours doesn't seem like a long time, but they blocked it in an area where, pretty much no matter where you are going or coming from, you were stuck in the very middle of a long drive. I felt horrible for those people! It really upset me. Another protest the day after Christmas caused me to postpone my travel to visit family. 

We'll see what today brings; today is supposed to be the first "big day" of their nonsense. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...r-first-nations-day-of-action/article7406990/


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

So, are there any non-native Canadians who support what the native Canadians are doing?

So far, the appearance is that there are some pretty deep seeded racist sentiments associated with this issue.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

All one need do is look into a little Native Canadian history, and that not so long ago, to see that there is indeed a score to settle.

I'm not sure the current approach is the right one, but the atrocities of the early-mid 1900s against the tribes in the north have not been addressed, to my knowledge.

I will say this, though. It is a clever government body that will do as the Americas have done with their conquered natives...... give them ease and convenience until they become all but useless.

What a tragedy.


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## majik (Feb 23, 2005)

seedspreader said:


> So, are there any non-native Canadians who support what the native Canadians are doing?
> 
> So far, the appearance is that there are some pretty deep seeded racist sentiments associated with this issue.


I am certainly very sympathetic to their concerns, and I am non-native. The Idle No More movement is a response both to generations of apartheid style treatment of native Canadians (including ignoring treaties they signed with the Crown) and a response to the Federal Government's budget omnibus bill that includes signficant changes to the Indian Act (I am embarrassed that it's even called that). 

I don't agree with all statements from protesters, I don't think that the chiefs are necessarily representing their band members well, and I hope there is no violence, but I think everyone has the right to share their views and that's what they are doing.

I am also very distressed at the level of racism that is being shown on the part of non-native Canadians. We are, after all, a nation of immigrants, a nation of diversity. How shameful that stereotypes and bigotry are part of our culture.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Oh great, the hockey walk out just ended!


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## rileyjo (Feb 14, 2005)

I have lived and worked in native Canadian communities in the last 10 years. They will be a force capable of disruption in the future, when this generation of 20 and 30 yr olds come into power. They are not there yet. 

Since the 60's, Canada had a policy of assimilating and annihilating the native peoples. The native children were taken from their homes and placed in residential schools where they were made to conform to white society. Out of that came a generation who had lost their identity. 

Up until a few years ago, residents of the first nations where I lived, had to check in with an "Indian Officer" before they could leave their reserves and travel anywhere, even to go visit family at the next reserve.

As Forerunner said above, there have been many wrongs perpetuated against the native community in the last 50 years. I work in social services and had to go into these reserves and the reception I got was often hostile.
Underground gambling is a huge problem since the reserves are now getting provincial casino money. There are groups that can be best described as 'mafias' in the places where I have lived. Gangs, drugs and smuggling are funding the 'we're not gonna take it' attitudes of the young.

I'd rather be held up in a few protests and see some dialogue established between the gov't and the natives. The alternative is to ignore this ticking time bomb and suddenly find ourselves against a populace that is educated, angry and armed with smuggled weapons purchased with illicit trade money.
The conditions for an isolated first nations woman is appalling. Their lives are a cycle of prostitution, family abuse and poverty. They have no idea how to parent their own children, as their childhood was robbed from them by the residential schools.

This is the tip of the iceberg and how Harper deals with this will set the trend.


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## canadiangirl (Jul 25, 2004)

I'm sympathetic not involved in the Idle No More movement, but am not entirely distanced - non status Metis but have status Cree family.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Sanza said:


> There will not be a civil war! It's going to come to a head quickly if they block the highway to the oil sands. No one, especially Harper will put up with that disruption. I am looking forward to that day!
> 
> Have you noticed the age of the protestors? Do you think a normal young white person would be able to take time off of work to have a sit in or blockade? We are working to support them so they can protest and whine about how bad they're treated!!gre: (you can tell I'm a ******* Albertan  )
> 
> ...


I hear you, Sanza!!!:bow:


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

majik said:


> I am certainly very sympathetic to their concerns, and I am non-native. The Idle No More movement is a response both to generations of apartheid style treatment of native Canadians (including ignoring treaties they signed with the Crown) and a response to the Federal Government's budget omnibus bill that includes signficant changes to the Indian Act (I am embarrassed that it's even called that).
> 
> I don't agree with all statements from protesters, I don't think that the chiefs are necessarily representing their band members well, and I hope there is no violence, but I think everyone has the right to share their views and that's what they are doing.
> 
> I am also very distressed at the level of racism that is being shown on the part of non-native Canadians. We are, after all, a nation of immigrants, a nation of diversity. How shameful that stereotypes and bigotry are part of our culture.


A few comments: Before we came here, the natives on the prairies wandered aimlessly, starving to death in search for food, with stone and wood, sinew and stone weapons, dragging their few belongings behind them on a cart with no wheels. The lie that they were a proud and strong people is just that, a myth. 

When white folks appeared, we shared and traded, fed, and sheltered these people. Palliser himself, saved many who were starving. And then, when trading commenced, technology came to these aimless bands, who incidentally, are also immigrants to this land. 

Now, because of the ridiculous and out of date treaties, they drive on my crops, and shoot game at night, with high powered rifles, electric spotlights, burning gas they never would have exploited, using wheels they never invented. They want the white man to uphold the treaties. Fine! But then we have to ask of them to not use our technology to pillage the land. 

The treaties need renewal at the least, to disappear totally would be my preference. 

Try reading this article about one of their own. He uses stronger language than anyone white I know, against his own lazy people. Does that make him racist???

http://www.netnewsledger.com/2013/0...-we-have-to-get-rid-of-the-welfare-mentality/

And, another good one:

http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/columnists/tom_brodbeck/2011/01/18/16941746.html

So you see, there is a way out. There is a reason to have hope. We indeed need more Chief Louis... What a great man!


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

DaleK said:


> Little known fact... a couple of miles from where they were protesting, the CN and CP lines running between Toronto and Ottawa and Montreal actually cross over one another on the Tyendinaga MT. A single person with a wagon load of hay or logs could easily burn the overpass where they cross and cripple the only rail links between east and west for weeks if not months. And this is less than a mile from the 401.


I must be psychic. As of about 3pm today, both these lines are blocked where they cross by protesters wearing masks and throwing rocks at reporters.


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## rileyjo (Feb 14, 2005)

Chief Louie is awesome. I hope his voice gets heard over the shouting.

I had friends who got caught up in a rehashing of treaty rights. They built up a business over 15 years. The local band took the gov't to court and won an extension of their territory and many millions of dollars.

My friends had to give up their biz. They were compensated but it wasnt enough to allow them to buy another business. They moved away and had to go work for someone else. One of the elders bought their place for his son.

I drove past there a few months back and what was a nice home and business is now a junkyard full of scrap cars and litter everywhere. It is a shame for my friends since they worked so hard and had planned to retire in that spot.


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

Lol, I always told my wife and friends after my visits to toronto and especially Alberta how badly they treated the native americans there, and that they lived in such horrible crime ridden areas due to the government treating them as second class citizens. I do not wish violence or harm to come to anyone, but all of you complainign about the government leeches draining canada, ok imagine that but instead of nativer americans you have 47% of your populations DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING.


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

After doing my reading, I pray that the natives can rise up and reclaim their proper place beside the whites of canadian society- shame they do not have the freedoms they would have here in the united states, gee I guess government involvement only helps people to stay opressed and living on the nipple scared to leave it for fear of beign strangled by the weight of society. If only they had guns to protect themselves and to overthrow their tyrannical government keeping them locked away in "reservations" AKA camps. hrrrm I wonder where I have seen all this before and what our social left in America is pushing for.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

i've seen the same as RJ mentioned. i lived around the corner from the reserve. give them a brand new home and they can turn it into a dump and destroy it quicker than a bulldozer. ~Georgia


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## notbutanapron (Jun 30, 2011)

bluetogreens said:


> After doing my reading, I pray that the natives can rise up and reclaim their proper place beside the whites of canadian society- *shame they do not have the freedoms they would have here in the united states*, gee I guess government involvement only helps people to stay opressed and living on the nipple scared to leave it for fear of beign strangled by the weight of society. If only they had guns to protect themselves and to overthrow their tyrannical government keeping them locked away in "reservations" AKA camps. hrrrm I wonder where I have seen all this before and what our social left in America is pushing for.


From what I hear from my native friends, it's not all shiny in America either. Reservation women have a horrifically hard time reporting crimes and in certain areas legalities can be blurred for racist people in power to abuse the natives quite easily. I've just heard such shocking stories. I don't think people, as a general and I'm talking about Australians too, treat their natives very well at all.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I ask all the USA Americans and others not to bring our problems to compare to the Canadian issues being discussed here. Just because we have one or two that choose to tell us how things should be done in the US or compare how things are better in their version of Canada - we do not need to do the same to their issues. Please mind your manners. They need to be able to discuss these issues without a vocal peanut gallery.

Thanks, Angie


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## GrammaBarb (Dec 27, 2012)

Hi Folks,

I've not seen one possible solution posted here, so I will make bold to suggest it, not for our Canadian friends, since they will find their own solution, but for those of us here in the States; how about if we just have one basic garden-variety brand of citizen? No "Special Rights' groups.....if I want to open a casino or sell ciggies to ********, it should be legal, or illegal, for everyone. 

In my opinion, special rights creates racist responses and resentment. A Stone-Age culture fought the good fight and lost to an Industrial Age culture. OK, assimilate and move on. I guess I'm not surprised that people treated as children should throw child-like tantrums. 

I do find it interesting that Ireland hasn't been demanding reparations from the Crown for over 600 years of maltreatment, but we get our share of blame for problems in the States. 

So. Not to over-state the issue, but I think the sooner we are all equal citizens of the U.S., or Canada, or wherever, the better. 

And with that, I'm climbing down off the soap-box......

Barb, happily venting on a sunny day...


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

Sanza said:


> There will not be a civil war! It's going to come to a head quickly if they block the highway to the oil sands. No one, especially Harper will put up with that disruption. I am looking forward to that day!
> 
> Have you noticed the age of the protestors? Do you think a normal young white person would be able to take time off of work to have a sit in or blockade? We are working to support them so they can protest and whine about how bad they're treated!!gre: (you can tell I'm a ******** *Albertan  )
> 
> ...


I am a ******* American. But I do not want to be included in a group who says what you did.


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

farmerDale said:


> A few comments: Before we came here, the natives on the prairies wandered aimlessly, starving to death in search for food, with stone and wood, sinew and stone weapons, dragging their few belongings behind them on a cart with no wheels. The lie that they were a proud and strong people is just that, a myth.
> 
> When white folks appeared, we shared and traded, fed, and sheltered these people. Palliser himself, saved many who were starving. And then, when trading commenced, technology came to these aimless bands, who incidentally, are also immigrants to this land.
> 
> Now, because of the ridiculous and out of date treaties, they drive on my crops, and shoot game at night, with high powered rifles, electric spotlights, burning gas they never would have exploited, using wheels they never invented. They want the white man to uphold the treaties. Fine! But then we have to ask of them to not use our technology to pillage the land.


This has to be one of the most ridiculous statements of I have ever seen on this forum.

I am sick of people lumping a group of folks into their entire vision of a people. It's wrong. Your statement may be true for a tiny location. Extremes of all sorts of varieties may be true... for a tiny location. In comparison to the whole North American geographic chunk of the planet, your statement is a TOTAL FARSE!

Hardly anyone who has reaped benefit from the results will admit that WE *WE* whoever "WE" are... did commit genocide on native people JUST LIKE HITLER DID. Just like in South Africa, and Burma, and so many more.

Absolutely equal to what radical terrorists do in the name of religion. 

Absolutely equal to what groups like KKK did in defiance of law and morality.

and on and on like other "evil" people who most here love to hate.

Why is this one last group of people OKAY and acceptable to bat around with the biggot stick? HUH? I don't get it.

I tell you what. I don't think there's a human being reading here that is of one race or background. If you are, great. Unusual.
But mostly we are just p e o p l e.

mitakuye oyasin


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Those were my thoughts, as well.......


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

partndn said:


> I am a ******* American. But I do not want to be included in a group who says what you did.


People simply fail to understand what happens on the reserves in Canada. It is completely rotten, except for a few select cases. It is not up to taxpayers to lift a race out of the depths of poverty. It is up to the race itself, to take a hard look at itself, and get a grip, and do it themselves, like the few reserves who have and have been successful. Many city people in Canada are behind the indians: However, they do not live near where the rot is occurring. So they have a skewed perception of reality.

One of the demands from the indians, is an inquiry into why so many indians end up in prison. No inquiry is needed: We all know the answer. Guess what it is? The answer to that riddle, is that indians do most of the crime. Simple as that. Sure, what Sanza said is not PC in todays world, but by and large she is bang on the facts. 

The indians in Canada are given almost 10 000 000 000 dollars a year from the working Canadians. Yes, that is a TEN WITH NINE zeros following. There are about 1 000 000 indians in Canada. The problem comes when a reserve like Atawapiskat has 1 500 people on it, and are given 100 000 000 dollars, of which 81% is completely un-accounted for. This same reserve refuses to allow a third party over-seer. The chief drives an escalade. While her minions live in squalor. 

There needs to be more native leaders like Mr. Clarence Louie. He is more blatant about this issue than Sanza or I am. He calls his own people lazy. And much worse. And he has the richest, most dynamic reserve in all of Canada, because he has a good attitude, and believes in jobs for his people. 

Again, we need more like him. With native unemployment in the range of 50 to 67%, there is a problem. And it is not because of how they are supposedly being treated by the white man. It is because of the reserve system, the culture of defeat, of entitlement, and a generally lazy group as a whole. 

Funny thing is, the indians who do work do extremely well. They pay few taxes, get free education, and those who rise above, do very well, because of all the racist perks they have over the rest of Canadians.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

partndn said:


> This has to be one of the most ridiculous statements of I have ever seen on this forum.
> 
> I am sick of people lumping a group of folks into their entire vision of a people. It's wrong. Your statement may be true for a tiny location. Extremes of all sorts of varieties may be true... for a tiny location. In comparison to the whole North American geographic chunk of the planet, your statement is a TOTAL FARSE!
> 
> ...


You obviously have not been to Canada, and gone to a reserve, nor have you read a history book written by an actual explorer. 

I agree, there is one race, people. We should be equal. No one should be afforded extras based on race. I have to go eat, I have so much more to say. 

I would like to know what you mean by my post being a farce. Please explain?


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

seedspreader said:


> So, are there any non-native Canadians who support what the native Canadians are doing?
> 
> So far, the appearance is that there are some pretty deep seeded racist sentiments associated with this issue.


Yes, there is support from non-First Nations people but I think perhaps the support or racist sentiments may vary depending on which part of the country people live in and what First Nations people's working and living conditions are like wherever they are. British Columbia is most likely the most supportive and least racist of all the provinces due to the higher number of First Nations bands here. BC is home to more than a third of the total of Canada's First Nations Bands (200+ bands in BC alone out of 600 total across the nation) and with BC being more highly multiculturally diverse as it is compared with the rest of Canada - where approximately half the BC population is descended from European whites and the other half is a diversity of First Nations and many other racial cultures Ã©migrÃ©s from around the world there is more support, mixing of cultures, sympathy and equanimity about each other's efforts.

Chief Louis and his people in the Osoyoos Band (southern BC) and the Haida, the Salish, the Sto_:_lo and all the coast island bands have been highly inspirational and set good examples in industry, work ethic and self-government that sees the majority of other BC bands following (or attempting to) in the footsteps of those progressive bands. I had the honour of meeting Chief Louis in 1995 and he is a powerful speaker, without a doubt one of the most inspirational, progressive and charismatic people to grace this land and I'm very proud of him and what he's inspired in the Osoyoos band. 

The BC bands are certainly vocally supportive towards the other bands across the nation but they aren't protesting and blockading on their behalf. They're more involved with other things that effect their own self-government in this province and in environmental activism, tourism, arts and culture and in this province's industries, resources and ecology.

.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

FarmerDale.......

It's easy enough to see the tragedy of governmental meddling on the reservations, today.

So it is with many of our good, European descent whites in the projects around the US. No argument there.

But, looking back into history and painting all of the Native Americans with the broad brush that you did is farce.

Furthermore, anyone who believes that it is morally superior for the strong to take from the weaker......... comes across a little more than suspect.


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## Work horse (Apr 7, 2012)

I want to also be clear that I absolutely support their right to peaceful protest. My problem is that this IS NOT peaceful protesting! Threatening to shut down Canada's economy is NOT cool with me! I am the biggest fan of REASONABLE in every form.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

zant said:


> ????? Please don't tell NL,she thinks she lives in morally superior paradise


I do. I'm blessed to live in a part of Canada that is quite different from the rest of Canada east of the Rockies. Just ask Sanza, farmer Dale and Longshot what they think of BC and they'll be quick as a rabbit to shoot it down and tell you horror stories about us terrible stuck up, snooty and morally superior British Columbians. :heh:

.


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## bluetogreens (May 31, 2010)

Problem with all of this is simple: The squeeker the wheel the better chance of it being heard. Man it sucks when people you disagree with and are a minority become organized and their combined voices seem like the majority but they really are not. I just do not know what to compare this to to help citizens react and prepaire. Is it more like America's recent Occupy wall street-which means you could prep by ignoring it and ensuring your day to day activities avoid the areas that would place you in harms way. Is it like our race riots via kent state of the 50's where its gonna take blood shed of innocents for them to be heard? if so and you do not wish to become involved-remember when you let your government crush one class of citizen-it is not long before they try to crush others. Or are you against the native peopls and wish your voice to be heard in that regards? 

To many people take a passive roll in what could honestly be important for the future-however the weight of the consequences of involvement must be weighed against the disruption/chance of harm coming to you.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Forerunner said:


> FarmerDale.......
> 
> It's easy enough to see the tragedy of governmental meddling on the reservations, today.
> 
> ...


I specified in my post, the northern, and prairie situation. Maybe you missed that. I also mentioned specifically, not all are to be painted with the same brush. Perhaps you missed that as well. I no where said natives everywhere are the same. In fact, this fact is most of my point. Did you peruse the Chief Clarence Louie issue I brought to light???


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## zito (Dec 21, 2006)

bluetogreens said:


> After doing my reading, I pray that the natives can rise up and reclaim their proper place beside the whites of canadian society- shame they do not have the freedoms they would have here in the united states, gee I guess government involvement only helps people to stay opressed and living on the nipple scared to leave it for fear of beign strangled by the weight of society. If only they had guns to protect themselves and to overthrow their tyrannical government keeping them locked away in "reservations" AKA camps. hrrrm I wonder where I have seen all this before and what our social left in America is pushing for.


Give me a break. Natives in Canada have -every- right that others do, as well as a fair number of rights unique to natives (lots of tax breaks, help with education costs, etc.). As for natives being required to check in with an official before traveling; that's got to be either a provincial thing, or quite some time in the past, like 40 years or more. The only ones holding natives back in Canada, are natives. It's pretty much the same as the way some blacks are in the U.S.; continually believing, living, and acting as if you are a victim, makes you one I guess. 

Right beside the city I live in is one of the wealthiest reserves in Canada, Tsuu T'ina, with lots of oil and gas revenue. It is one of the most incredible s**t-holes you'll ever see. Homes are trashed, with inside trim/doors being burned in winter because the next band cheque doesn't come till the first of the month, and there's no money to buy propane until then. When you don't feel like going outside to water your horses in winter because it's cold, it's acceptable to chainsaw a hole in the wall above your bathtub, doesn't everyone do that? The government then ends up paying for repairs. I haul scrap metal for a living. I hauled 2 combines off for scrap, as they were rusted out and useless. Only thing was, they were brand new. They had been brought in, but nobody ever bothered using them for anything other than target practice.

Each native receives a payout when they turn 18. The last I knew for sure, it was $30k, and that was about 20 years ago or so. I had heard that the payment has increased since then, but I can't verify that. It's common for new vehicles to be bought with this payment, and then run into the ground. My favourite was a 1998 camaro SS I picked up and hauled for scrap. It had gotten destroyed while rabbit hunting. Not shooting out the windows, hell no. Instead, let's just use the car to run the rabbits down. Works well right up until you hit a ditch with the car and bend it up into a "V".

So I'm sorry, but my sympathy for our natives is all used up. I've dealt with numerous successful natives(successful as in life, business, family, etc) and there is nothing holding them back. Corruption in band leadership is rampant and widespread. Vandalism and alchoholism are everywhere. The city police and even the RCMP have backed out of going on the reserve when there's a disturbance or they are called. Heaven forbid they should chase a fleeing criminal onto the reserve; that's pretty much a guaranteed riot with torched cruisers. There is a band police dept., but they don't seem to do much.

While indeed some terrible things happened, they were in the past, and the rest of Canada has been apologizing and paying reparations ever since. Time for natives to grow up and take responsibility for themselves, as well as make use of the opportunities they are given.


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## lordoftheweeds (Dec 27, 2012)

I'm sure somewhere way back in time some of my relatives were mistreated by either the Greeks, Romans, Mongols etc etc etc, who can I sue for reparations?


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

I responded to each paragraph in post 38 but lost my login while my son came home. I'm not gonna re-do it. 

I think this is completely relavent to S&EP. The irony is amazing.


EVERY SINGLE WARNING AND FEAR THAT GETS POSTED ABOUT ALMOST DAILY IN THIS FORUM AND IN CURRENT EVENTS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAS BEEN DONE TO THEM.

That makes it pretty hypocritical to refuse to recognize your neighbor as a valuable person who has been changed long before you. And you could be next.


An example.. try just for a minute (not even a lifetime as reality would require) to put on these shoes and take a step:

_You&#8217;ve been lied to and duped and fooled about property rights. (agenda 21, eminent domain). You had a home life style that you were accustomed to, but things will be different now. What? You&#8217;re a farmer and your family has been for generations? Well now, no farming for you anymore. You&#8217;re on vacation! They&#8217;re gonna use that property for really important things that are gonna be great for commerce and economy._
_In return, they&#8217;re gonna take those woodlands there and the crop fields and send you some nice nuclear waste to babysit. Yeah! It&#8217;s very safe, and all you have to do is keep an eye on it and make sure nobody breaks in, K?_

_You&#8217;re required to attend and follow all the traditional laws of the muslim faith. Oh? Not the religion you were accustomed to? You&#8217;ll get used to it real quick. No biggie._

_Seems that home school thing isn&#8217;t a deal you can choose anymore. Your kids have been kidnapped forcibly and taken to &#8220;school&#8221; so they&#8217;ll be civilized. Society doesn&#8217;t like your little angel&#8217;s hairdo, so they&#8217;ll fix it to something more appropriate. She&#8217;ll be taught about her femaleness by some folks you&#8217;ve never met, and they&#8217;ll include what&#8217;s right and wrong for her with all that, so no worries. And by the way, lil junior&#8217;s overalls and muck boots are unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Aww, don&#8217;t cry. You will get him back in a few years in such a state of moral confusion that you may or may not recognize him. All that you planned to teach them as a parent is not important. Afterall, they know best. They&#8217;ll take care of shaping your little ones._

_Your Papaw is not well. He needs a doctor. Your trusted friend of many years, Doc Willis, is not allowed to practice anymore. He always knew how to take the best care and concern with you and your family. But there is a better solution now. Some folks at a fine university have been doing some studying, and they&#8217;re sure to make the best of recommendations for his treatment and well being. You will get an email from them very shortly after you scan his DNA info from his microchip and then download it to the medic request port on your government issued comm box. _

_Hmmf.. you&#8217;re sick of how all this is going. Even your own cousin, you know that one that was never much for hard work &#8211; has cowered for a few menial frills and is now loyal to the &#8220;company.&#8221; But you think there&#8217;s still a chance at some kind of change or improvement. After much consideration, you and many of your like minded family and friends have decided to DO something about it. Alright! Whatcha gonna do?! You can&#8217;t fight. You don&#8217;t have a chance. They began diminishing your weapons way back in your Mamaw&#8217;s generation. You haven&#8217;t seen a genuine firearm in your whole life except on the hip of your keepers. You should just get used to this life. It&#8217;s all you have now. Just take your mandated daily meds and you will feel better in a bit._

I say that if these things were done to your family, you too, would result in someone who doesn&#8217;t know what to do, how to create a sustainable life without choosing to affirm the very ones who put you in the helpless, defenseless, pitiful position you find yourself in.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Nothing like a few skeletons in the closet to haunt the comfortable.

It was the ancestry of the comfortable whose arrogance and meddling brought this mess, on both, the US and Canada.

Indeed it was all "in the past", but the atrocity lives on, and as mentioned, the comfortable get to live with it.


How long will it be before all of us North Americans forgive the Chinese for forcing "us' into cultures and lifestyles unknown, if not reservations outright ?

Obviously, Chief Louie has taken the high road, but that is not the usual outcome of forced relocations and the scattering of families of any given culture by an invading belligerent...... and the international belligerents know this as an historical fact.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

naturelover said:


> I do. I'm blessed to live in a part of Canada that is quite different from the rest of Canada east of the Rockies. Just ask Sanza, farmer Dale and Longshot what they think of BC and they'll be quick as a rabbit to shoot it down and tell you horror stories about us terrible stuck up, snooty and morally superior British Columbians. :heh:
> 
> .


I love Canada. I love ALL of Canada. There are small geographic pockets, namely cities, where I think the people are kinda funny, but Canada is an awesome country. Beautiful B.C., majestic Alberta, Unknown Saskatchewan, the prime Farmland of Manitoba. I will not bore you all with my love of each province. Someone from B.C., with forward thinking natives, should not be lulled into thinking it is like that elsewhere. To understand the sadness of this issue, one must experience it to believe it. And what it is, is sad. Such a waste of 100 and some years. But Chief Louie changed that in 1985. He brought a reserve hope. That hope was not more handouts, insane demands, and a sit on your butt attitude, it was a go out and get a job, start a business, and prosper attitude.

I stand for one Canada, but a group of people of a certain race, ( again, not all, obviously), segregating themselves and refusing to change, refusing to work, and refusing to even try to get out of the pit they are in, is racism.

Just ask Chief Louie. He is harsher than me. Is he racist? Or has he broken free. You be the judge.


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## rileyjo (Feb 14, 2005)

Indian agents held sway in my area until the late '70's , early 80's. They are still part of the memories of the people who are protesting.

Zito is bang on. Where I lived, folks stayed on home on "cheque days" and the cops turned a blind eye to drunk drivers on the road leading to the nearby reserve. They poached all night with lights thru the farmers fields and nobody confronted them.
I have a friend who is an RCMP officer in northern Sask. They lock themselves in their depot at night when on duty. They do not respond to calls until daylight. I have another friend who is an OPP along the James Bay coast. Same thing, lock up and dont venture out at night.
I used to drive the bus for a local Junior "A' hockey club. We had an OPP police escort onto reserves to play their team. 

There is an undercurrent of anger that can no longer be ignored. Gun smuggling is a major activity along the border reserves. My ex husband used to buy restricted weapons from friends who purchased them off the reserves. Gun control is a joke to people who consider themselves a sovereign nation of their own.
We might not have a civil war with tanks in the street but acts of terrorism are entirely possible in this climate of building frustration.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

farmerDale said:


> A few comments: Before we came here, the natives on the prairies wandered aimlessly, starving to death in search for food, with stone and wood, sinew and stone weapons, dragging their few belongings behind them on a cart with no wheels. The lie that they were a proud and strong people is just that, a myth.
> 
> When white folks appeared, we shared and traded, fed, and sheltered these people. Palliser himself, saved many who were starving. And then, when trading commenced, technology came to these aimless bands, who incidentally, are also immigrants to this land.
> 
> ...


You mean they didn't have spotlights and high powered rifles, as part of their pre-whites existence!  I've read about the 'hunting rights' of natives in Canada before...


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

texican said:


> You mean they didn't have spotlights and high powered rifles, as part of their pre-whites existence!  I've read about the 'hunting rights' of natives in Canada before...


And before white man came, they would have eaten the several elk, moose and deer that they shot on my land, not left them to rot.


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## LonelyNorthwind (Mar 6, 2010)

Alaska natives are treated pretty good by taxpayers. As with other native Americans, all dental and medical are covered, in Alaska that includes travel and expenses if necessary. If you're white and need flown out of a remote town you better have 30 grand waiting. Whole neighborhoods are provided with new homes, tax free, no down and payments adjusted according to income. College tuition and all expenses are paid for including airfare home a couple times a year since most attend far from home. Many construction jobs are designated "native hire only" until they can't fill positions. Dividends are distributed every year, usually several thousand per person. There are probably more bennies ....

One of my daughters married a white guy and struggles daily to provide these things. The other daughter married a native Alaskan, her oldest is now earning a phD in psychology thanks to the native corporation. It just seems out of balance. What did the children of one daughter do to earn all this financial aid the other children didn't do?


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

farmerDale said:


> > Originally Posted by *naturelover*
> > _I'm blessed to live in a part of Canada that is quite different from the rest of Canada east of the Rockies. _
> 
> 
> _Someone from B.C., with forward thinking natives, *should not be lulled into thinking it is like that elsewhere.* To understand the sadness of this issue, one must experience it to believe it. _


 
Read again what I said. I said it's different, I never said it's like that elsewhere in the country. And don't you be thinking I'm lulled, I know exactly what it's like in other parts of the country. I also know what it was like in BC pre-1980's and the BC bands and the villages were different then from what they are now. Living on the coast and in the north I grew up with natives, I saw the racism, the mistreatment, I saw the apathy and depression, the suicides, homicides, the squalor, the alcoholism. I saw the aftermath of the native kids that were taken away from their natural homes from the 1940's to 1960's and put into religious boarding schools and physically abused and brainwashed into un-learning their own families, their own languages and native ways. They're all adults my age now, in their 60's and 70's (those who survived) and only just now being financially compensated by the government to try to make up for some of the horrors they had to endure and the lives lost in those schools. 

Not all BC natives are as progressive such as the Osoyoos band for example. There are some isolated villages in BC where they are still living in pre-1980's conditions, still apathetic and resorting to alcoholism, trying to live in forced white man's ways and unable to do so, failing to adapt to a life that is so different from what was bred in the bone. 

But there are others that are success stories and they're doing it the white man's way while still managing to retain their native culture and spiritual ways. The Osoyoos band is just one of them. There are several other bands on the big island and on Haida Quai that do very well through tourism, guiding, fishing, arts and culture. Tourism is a big deal here so there are many able to take advantage of that opportunity and turn it into a First Nations style industry.

.


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

partndn said:


> I am a ******* American. But I do not want to be included in a group who says what you did.


Not that I particularily care about your opinion, but what exactly did I say that was so bad? One thing, I sure don't care for people with a holier then thou attitude.....

And that is exactly what these protestors are. 
Canada promotes the multi culturalism here, and they are free to keep their culture just like the rest of us Canadians - without special treatment.

FarmerDale has given a few great posts so I don't want to bore you all being repititious.


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

bluetogreens said:


> Lol, I always told my wife and friends after my visits to toronto and especially Alberta how badly they treated the native americans there, and that they lived in such horrible crime ridden areas due to the government treating them as second class citizens. I do not wish violence or harm to come to anyone, but all of you complainign about the government leeches draining canada, ok imagine that but instead of nativer americans you have 47% of your populations DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING.


Alberta natives are the richest natives in all of Canada because of their royalties from the petroleum industry. How they waste their money is not the rest of Canadas' fault. 



bluetogreens said:


> After doing my reading, I pray that the natives *can rise up and reclaim their proper place beside the whites of canadian society- shame they do not have the freedoms they would have here in the united states,* gee I guess government involvement only helps people to stay opressed and living on the nipple scared to leave it for fear of beign strangled by the weight of society. If only they had guns to protect themselves and to overthrow their tyrannical government keeping them locked away in "reservations" AKA camps. hrrrm I wonder where I have seen all this before and what our social left in America is pushing for.


 There is no one holding them down but themselves. They choose to play the victim and they are doing it deliberately. Young kids are reprimanded when they sway over to "white mans' ways". 
They have every freedom that is given to Canadians, and they have the freedom to go out and get a job, buy a house, take vacations...they just have to make the effort to contribute from society rather then suck off of it. A small percentage do.


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

Just to clarify for the ones that think I'm racist: I'm proud of Canadas' claim of multi-culturalism! 
My ds lived 10 years with a beautiful woman who happened to have treaty status, and she is a dear friend of mine still to this day. 
Her occupation was with native social work, first in a group home, then as a principal of an all native junior high school and then in the all native high school all in the city of Edmonton. She had lots of horror stories to tell about the threats she received on a daily basis and about the kids and their families' behavior to her because she "turned white man" Talk about racism?


Now FarmerDale explained about how they refuse to adapt to cultural blending but enjoy all the perks of modern inventions.

So I will tell you a bit about the settlers in the west, particularily in east central Alberta, in the last 100 years....some of the also being mistreated by the white man. 

All my grandparents came to Canada at a young age, met and married here, and some of my great grandparents immigrated too because they wanted to escape the mistreatment of the peasants in Ukraine/Russia. 
They came without knowing the english language, without knowing about the bitter cold in western Canada, and they came dirt poor with a few clothes and a few hand tools and a lot of them almost died of starvation the first few years! 

Because they couldn't speak english they were treated worse then animals, and definately worse then the natives because the white settlers still feared the natives back then.
My parents were beaten by the teachers whenever they lapsed into their native tongue instead of speaking english in the school, even when outside during recess. They only attended school in the warm months because they were to poor to own any footwear.

They were refused service and ignored at stores when they tried to buy supplies because of their appearance and their lack of english language.
But through hard work and perseverence they prospered and even managed to send some of their children to university to become doctors and lawyers and teachers and geologists. 

The third generation (mine) has continued on with success because our forebearers worked at blending in and becoming Canadian. And yes I am bragging, but I say one branch of my own decendants are already millionaire farmers because of their hard work!

So my point is if immigrants can make successful lives and prosper in a few short years there is no reason the natives couldn't have done the same for themselves.

They continue to abuse any help given to them, and abuse of drugs and alcohol is rampart on the reserves and in the cities too. And they do make up a huge percentage of criminals here.
They seem to have no concept of pride of ownership when it comes to respecting and looking after material possesions. I have seen firsthand the destruction done to their houses. My house I'm living in is close to 90 years old, still in great shape because it's been looked after and repaired when needed. Some of their houses built 50 - 60 years later are nothing but rubble, yes with exterior wall knocked out to water the stock in the bathtub.... and they cry that they're not treated well??


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## canadiangirl (Jul 25, 2004)

One problem with the "pride of ownership" is that they will never own their homes, not sure how that can be fixed but they are forever renters.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

canadiangirl said:


> One problem with the "pride of ownership" is that they will never own their homes, not sure how that can be fixed but they are forever renters.


Yes, they can never improve their property and sell it. They can not borrow on equity to start a business as they have no equity.


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## crwilson (Feb 9, 2005)

I believe the 10 billion dollar figure is only federal spending as well there is probably half as much again through provincial spending. Just federal alone there is almost 9 thousand dollars spent anually on each and every native man woman and child. so a family of 5 gets 45000 just from the federal gov alone.. seems like there are treated pretty good already.

Have a friend who is a carpenter and had a good paying job for about 8 years replacing the cupboards on the reserve every spring because they beat them to pieces to burn them for firewood cuz they were to lazy to go out back and split some wood. He quit because he couldnt take it anymore.

I dont want this post comming of in the wrong way, but obviously the money they need is already there its up to them to take the reigns now and do something with there lives. They have to stop blaming the gov and the white people for there situation. 

One thing I dont understand is even a deer a bear, a bird makes a bed of some sorts at night, then you look at continents like africa where they sleep right on cement floors without so much as a sheet. there are materials laying all around everywhere, how long would each of you sleep on a cement or rock hard dirt floor before you rigged up somekind of simple bed even a grass pile. I believe we are encountering the same problems here in Canada with the natives, sure they will sleep in a bed if you provide one for them.

In the end life was never meant to be fair and if your life isnt what you want or you fail its generally your fault


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## crwilson (Feb 9, 2005)

painterswife said:


> Yes, they can never improve their property and sell it. They can not borrow on equity to start a business as they have no equity.


In canada if you are a native and have even the most basic business plan you can recieve more grants and funding than you can possibly imagine so this is completely ludicrous to say.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

crwilson said:


> In canada if you are a native and have even the most basic business plan you can recieve more grants and funding than you can possibly imagine so this is completely ludicrous to say.


It is not ludicrous. I am a Canadian with relatives that are First Nations and are in leadership positions. They have grown up with a certain mind set and culture and rules that bare great weight how their lives progress. Throwing money at people and the way it is distributed does not always solve or correct the problems.

Canada has proven that with the Unemployment and low income benefits and the changes they instituted in the 90's.


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## justin_time (Dec 2, 2012)

Well, while I hate useing or defineing others by group names or stereotypes, I will briefly as They are self defineing themself in this case.....When you are thinking of natives and the stereotypes that come to mind, and have been mentioned, I have not found those stereotypes applicable to those living off the reserve.
Just the opposite, as hard working as I think myself to be, and as welcome to my home as any other niebour. I think leaving the reserve makes a big difference.... 
The reserves have issues to say the least....The natives have complaints to address but at this point they need to address there own internal problems of accountability
regarding each other. 
You can bet there are many Chiefs and councils that love this manufactured drama, as it takes eyes off of them, what they have done, and will continue to do.... There is a vested interest in promoting division between natives and non natives, when sadly sitting at the kitchen table having coffee together you will find yourself less apart than you think when discussing issues.... division is always encouraged, and not just between native, and non native, How stupid is it to even be using such a term, if your born here, your native


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Very well put, Justin-time.


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## longshot38 (Dec 19, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> Please explain why and what this means. You're southern neighbors are interested.


i guess your asking me about the ``socialist paradise`` remark and `` we know better`` it is true that there are plenty of social programs in Canada, most of us have no problem with them believing that there is a roll for government to play in helping those who are down on their luck and who have no other means of keeping things together so to speak. many of us resent piling money upon mounds of money on those who could help themselves and refuse to or ``game`` the system. too many groups have the ``give me`s `` and i ``deserve`` or i am ``entitled``. it is getting to the point where some groups, who are first nations (indians), so called ``occupy types`` who have radicals in charge who are pushing violent protest etc. to get some outcome. not all are like this! many of these groups are trying to work within the system or use peaceful protest to make their points but they are getting shouted down by the radicals. the rest of us are just getting sick of the whole deal and want our tax dollars to be used wisely not as a balm to shut up the loudest so that it can be wasted or worst. this is what i mean by some of us know better that Canada is a socialist paradise.

just my nickles worth

dean


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## longshot38 (Dec 19, 2006)

naturelover said:


> I do. I'm blessed to live in a part of Canada that is quite different from the rest of Canada east of the Rockies. Just ask Sanza, farmer Dale and Longshot what they think of BC and they'll be quick as a rabbit to shoot it down and tell you horror stories about us terrible stuck up, snooty and morally superior British Columbians. :heh:
> 
> .


you have me wrong, i love BC. it is just some of the views that leave a bad taste in my mouth. and for the record, plenty of these views come from east of the rockies too.

dean


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## Work horse (Apr 7, 2012)

bluetogreens said:


> After doing my reading,* I pray that the natives can rise up and reclaim their proper place beside the whites of canadian society- shame they do not have the freedoms they would have here in the united states,* gee I guess government involvement only helps people to stay opressed and living on the nipple scared to leave it for fear of beign strangled by the weight of society. If only they had guns to protect themselves and to overthrow their tyrannical government keeping them locked away in "reservations" AKA camps. hrrrm I wonder where I have seen all this before and what our social left in America is pushing for.


May I ask what "freedoms" you are referring to, that natives don't have?


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

longshot38 said:


> i guess your asking me about the ``socialist paradise`` remark and `` we know better`` .......... *this is what i mean by some of us know better that Canada is a socialist paradise*.


I'm not sure what this is about. Nobody said anything in this topic about Canada being a socialist paradise. If you check back you'll see it was somebody making a wisecrack at me about me thinking that I live in a morally superior paradise and you commented back that you know better. I guess that's just their perception of me and the way I come across as being morally superior but I don't think they were referring to socialism. Maybe they were? :shrug:

But I would like some clarification about your above post and this last comment you made _"some of us know better that Canada is a socialist paradise."_ 

Are you saying that you do think Canada is a socialist paradise or that you do not think it is a socialist paradise?

For the record, I don't believe Canada is a socialist paradise.

.


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## longshot38 (Dec 19, 2006)

what i am saying is that lots of people who share a leftist point of view would love to turn this country into a socialist paradise. most Canadians want to make their own way not get carried along on the government teat. there is a role for government in social programs but Canadians can do great things if government would just get the heck out of the way. 

dean


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## majik (Feb 23, 2005)

Once again, it might be helpful to think about native people separately from their "leadership". 

Canada has a history of dishonesty and negligence when it comes to native people. The government has been their overlords for generations, and that has been and is encoded in legislation, so for those of you who think that native people should stop looking to government for answers, you might want to consider that government (and by extension all of us who elected them) are responsible for the poor housing, lack of education, substance abuse and poverty we see on and off reserve.

People might want to cool down the rhetoric and think clearly and critically about this one. To help, here's an article: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/01/16/f-idle-no-more-paul-martin.html I'll say that I'm not a fan of former Prime Minister Martin generally, but what he says is worth thinking about.

There's also the reality that Idle No More has developed an international following. Indigenous groups and people who support them across the globe are planning days of action and protests. Canada isn't alone in our poor treatment of native people, but we've now become an international example of it, and for that, I am ashamed.


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

seedspreader said:


> So, are there any non-native Canadians who support what the native Canadians are doing?
> 
> So far, the appearance is that there are some pretty deep seeded racist sentiments associated with this issue.


I am considered "non-native". I have native ancestry, but have never pursued treaty-status, although I probably could. I'm not sure -- I'm not sure how to prove it at this point.

To be clear, I support, fully, the Idle No More movement. I do *NOT* support those who have taken it over as a soapbox for the "poor natives" movement. That is not what it is, or at least not what it was meant to be. What it *IS*, what it began as, was a protest against Bill C45. That, I support, and I think any Canadian with a brain who has READ the bill would, too.

However, Chief Theresa Spence and her ilk have taken it over, much like many causes get taken over by those with their own agenda. I won't get into it here, but suffice to say that it has been turned into something it wasn't meant to be by those who originally began the protest.




bluetogreens said:


> After doing my reading, I pray that the natives can rise up and reclaim their proper place beside the whites of canadian society- shame they do not have the freedoms they would have here in the united states, gee I guess government involvement only helps people to stay opressed and living on the nipple scared to leave it for fear of beign strangled by the weight of society. If only they had guns to protect themselves and to overthrow their tyrannical government keeping them locked away in "reservations" AKA camps. hrrrm I wonder where I have seen all this before and what our social left in America is pushing for.


This is so much BS I don't even know where to begin. Lets's start with "if only they had guns" -- umm, they do. To believe otherwise, either you have bought into the belief that Canadians aren't "allowed" to own guns, which is patently untrue, or you believe that we control those on native reserves to the degree where they're completely unarmed -- also untrue. 

Now, let's address the "native problem" in Canada. Many here, Canadians, who have shared their opinions are spot-on, for the most part, but are guilty of generalizing. That's okay, it's what we humans do, and plenty of the respondents on this thread are doing the same thing. The fact is, there are many different kinds of "natives" in Canada, because there are about 600 different bands, and they're all different cultures. It's like saying a Ukrainian and a Greek are "the same" because they're both European. Cultures vary widely, and across the country, it shows. Micmaq are different from Ojibway, are different from Haida, are different from Cree... and on it goes.

My father started a business (interestingly enough, Painterswife, WITHOUT a loan, WITHOUT having to "own" his land in order to borrow against it, and WITHOUT government funding) years ago. He built cottages for rich people, and as we lived next door to a native reserve and there were MANY native people in our community, often had native men working with him. One of my Dad's longest-term employees was a man who lived nearby -- a native man living off-reserve with a family and a wife, and a home of his own. He worked every day, without fail. He turned up on time, he did a good job, and was a talented craftsman. He was also an alcoholic who could turn mean, but he was a hard worker.

Several times, my Dad tried to hire people off the reserve. It was pitiful to see the homes they lived in, the fact that they often, come winter, had no heat because they either (a) hadn't bothered to harvest firewood, or (b) had sold their wood-burner at some point through the warm months to buy alcohol or cigarettes. As I said, Dad tried to hire them, give them jobs to feed their (many) kids. Every single time he did, they would turn up to work until payday, and then disappear. Once the money from that paycheque was gone, they'd wander in again, expecting Dad to just put them to work. Unreliable doesn't even begin to cover it. Tools would disappear, building materials would disappear, SNOWMOBILES disappeared. They were completely unrepentant: Dad "owed" them.

One of my dearest friends, who we lost two years ago to cancer, was an off-reserve native. She was a smart, funny, educated woman. My sister's best friend was an off-reserve native girl who grew up, got a first rate education, and eventually became a university professor. Her husband, also native, is a very high-level executive with the federal government.

My point is, natives are not the problem. Reserves are the problem, and that is LESS about "white Canadians" and the government than it is about band councils and how they mistreat and mislead their own. 

Treaty 1, the very first treaty signed in 1871, traded their rights to the land for the rights to reserve land and a payment, a cash allowance, a MONTHLY stipend from the Canadian government, payable to every status native person IN PERPETUITY. This money is in payment for everything that has been "taken" from them. This money is paid to BAND COUNCILS, and at that point, the problems start. If the money were paid directly to each and every status-native in the country, rather than being given to their chiefs and councils, who have been proven, in many, many cases, to misappropriate the funds, we'd have a lot less dissatisfaction. The problem is, coupled with their lack of education, these people are being easily led and manipulated by their own leaders.

This is a VERY touchy issue in my country. The problem is, "white folks" are NOT going anywhere, it's not like we're all going to pack up and go back to Europe, or Asia, or wherever. Bad things have happened in past, yes -- ON BOTH SIDES. I notice that when native bands are complaining about how ill-treated they've been throughout history (and I'm not saying they weren't), they never mention some of the atrocities perpetuated against European settlers, or on each other. 

There is ill-will on both sides, and it must stop. It's not doing either culture any good. 

I support the right of EVERY Canadian to embrace their culture, and this includes Native Canadians. The common theme is that we are ALL Canadian, and until EVERYONE accepts that, and works together, and stops it already with the "I get mine first" attitude, nothing will change.

And to address the OP, there will be no "civil war", because of the people who are currently shouting the loudest about "not taking it any more", very few have the staying power or work ethic to stick with anything.


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## justin_time (Dec 2, 2012)

majik;6393962
Canada has a history of dishonesty and negligence when it comes to native people. The government has been their overlords for generations said:


> .[/URL]


I would agree with dishonest, and negligent, but throw in short sighted stupidity, and extend your thought to include all people not just native, But really what else can be expected from self serving governments.

It is absolutly legislated that I through my tax dollars, and my childern, and thiers and so on are indentured wage servants in perperturity to fund a selected racial group. I did not vote for this, I never would. I am not aware of anyone who has. 
Holding me accountable for the action of my government, is like holding them responsible for the actions, of theres. Its true thats the ball being dribbled across the court, but come on we all know, it isnt so, and that would reguire a whole other conversation, equally ugly. 

Through legislation another racial group has housing, medical, educational.....every need funded by others, without any responsibility for its costs or management.

I couldnt devise a more conflict producing, failure probable plan if I tried.
It cant go on.The sooner it ends the better for everyone.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Tracy Rimmer said:


> I am considered "non-native". I have native ancestry, but have never pursued treaty-status, although I probably could. I'm not sure -- I'm not sure how to prove it at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> My father started a business (interestingly enough, Painterswife, WITHOUT a loan, WITHOUT having to "own" his land in order to borrow against it, and WITHOUT government funding) years ago. He built cottages for rich people, and as we lived next door to a native reserve and there were MANY native people in our community, often had native men working with him. One of my Dad's longest-term employees was a man who lived nearby -- a native man living off-reserve with a family and a wife, and a home of his own. He worked every day, without fail. He turned up on time, he did a good job, and was a talented craftsman. He was also an alcoholic who could turn mean, but he was a hard worker.


Why is that pointed at me? I never said anything about anyone getting loans or having to own their own property to get one. I did say that they do not own their land outright and therefore can not use it for those purposes( if it is on the reserve.)


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

majik said:


> Once again, it might be helpful to think about native people separately from their "leadership".
> 
> Canada has a history of dishonesty and negligence when it comes to native people. The government has been their overlords for generations, and that has been and is encoded in legislation, so for those of you who think that native people should stop looking to government for answers, you might want to consider that government (and by extension all of us who elected them) are responsible for the poor housing, lack of education, substance abuse and poverty we see on and off reserve.
> 
> ...


Paul Martin? You mean the guy who stands with chief spence, and states she is an inspiration to ALL CANADIANS, after ripping off taxpayers to the tune of 80 million dollars on a reserve of 1 500? That Paul Martin? Stephen Harper apologized for past wrongs against indians a few years back. In case you missed the memo, it was the FIRST time in history a Prime Minister had done so. Paul Martin says the Conservatives don't understand natives, but the Conservative party had the first native MP. The first native senator. 

My point, is I would not put much stock in a failed PM of Canada, who missed his chance to apologize. And then Stephen Harper did. And this makes liberals like Paul Martin, REALLY angry. The fact he backs fraud, and stands with chief spence, is downright amazing...

Google Youtube. Once there, google Chief Louie of BC. Watch him tell it like it is, and see if you still think the indians are treated badly in Canada, or if they are the way they are because of, (gasp) themselves.

HE is the inspiration, not the likes of Paul Martin or that Thief spence lady. He is an indian, and he implores indians to get off their butts and get a job. He says it is time to get over it already. 

He is a great speaker, go check it out...


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## longshot38 (Dec 19, 2006)

Farmerdale; Paul Martin, the guy holding the purse strings during the adscam fiasco so i guess one person over seeing 80 million is misspending is an inspiration to a guy who over saw 40 million in misspending.

dean


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

I don't pretend to know much about the reservations system and I haven't read any of the treaties but it seems to me that the natives need a complete public relations makeover. The public figures representing them are not helping them and Theresa Spence is a joke. They need to put away the drums, the feathered headresses, get rid of the bandannas across their faces, dress respectfully, get their facts straight and the issues they want addressed sorted out and come see the Prime Minister as a strong negotiating team instead of a bunch of militant and provocative crybabies.

Most people around here are sick to their stomach of pouring appalling amounts of money down a black hole with no apparent results. People are saying that they should just let the train go through if they're blocking the rails and if they're blocking a road, just ram the trucks through. All this talk of "crippling the economy" is just making people disgusted and there's a growing sentiment around here that they should send the army in and forcibly remove the protesters if they're blocking anything, lay charges and take them to jail.

I don't necessarily support all of the above sentiments but it is what's being said around here and is an indication of how fed up everyone is about it. A poll out recently said that the majority of Canadians blame the natives for their own problems.

Surely they can leave the reserve if there's no work there and travel elsewhere for a few months to work. Sheesh, I think half the population of Newfoundland is here in Ontario for a few months each summer to work then goes back east for the winter. Is it hard being away from home and family for months at a time? Absolutely! However, it's an option that's open to them.


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## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

LOL truckinguy. Then we have the other half of the Newfies and Cape Bretoners here in NE Alberta working at the oil sands. Some work a few years and go back home and retire on their savings from here, and lots more of them move extended family to Alberta and continue to reap the rewards of a steady well paying job. 

There is such a shortage of workers here right now it's crazy, but the percentage of natives working or that apply for these jobs is sadly very small.

Tracy, you nailed it when you wrote about the unreliability...lol I live in close proximity to 3 reserves and 2 metis settlements and see the patterns they live by - treaty checks at the end of the month means they spend like there's no tomorrow, and by the last week of the month they're broke and trying to sell things off.

You're also correct about the blockades and the protesting by the natives hiding the real issues all of us Canadians should be questioning about billC45.


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## rileyjo (Feb 14, 2005)

I guess I'm one of the few here who have actually worked/lived on the reserves.

The politicians appear hopeless and the band councils seem crooked but at a lower level of native society the suffering is acute.

I worked with the local women's shelter. Despite all the money being poured in, there were no shelters on the reserves. We had a revolving door of steady customers. 
The family would get their cheque and two weeks later when it was used up, there would be family violence. The women and children would ltake refuge in the local shelter. They had to take counseling and programing as part of their stay. They would sit in the helping sessions we'd provide - smile and nod - and as soon as the cheques came out, they'd go back to their husbands and the cycle would start again. I found it to be hard and frustrating work because of our inability to effect any change in the system.


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## Work horse (Apr 7, 2012)

Sanza said:


> You're also correct about the blockades and the protesting by the natives hiding the real issues *all of us Canadians should be questioning about billC45*.


Could you point me to the parts of the bill that are a problem? I have skimmed through it a bit but I have not found what is so alarming as to shut down Canada's economy in protest.


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## longshot38 (Dec 19, 2006)

Work horse said:


> Could you point me to the parts of the bill that are a problem? I have skimmed through it a bit but I have not found what is so alarming as to shut down Canada's economy in protest.


C45 provides a number of benefits for the average person on reserve, the blow back and such is from the "leadership" who would be forced to show where the money is going. for instance chief spence would have to show what happened to the roughly 80 million dollars that was transferred to her community that has no paper trail for the spending as shown by an audit by Deloite. meanwhile many of her people are living in tarp shacks in minus 40 because the houses are not fit for human habitation, heck i don't even think i would want to burn them for fear of poisoning some one down wind.

dean


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Supposedly there is some "green" issue in the bills, that the indians are using as a front to their protests. Then why do they slaughter elk on my land and leave them to rot? If they are such responsible land stewards, why then are most of the reserves such environmental disasters???


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

farmerDale said:


> Supposedly there is some "green" issue in the bills, that the indians are using as a front to their protests. Then *why do they slaughter elk on my land and leave them to rot?* If they are such responsible land stewards, why then are most of the reserves such environmental disasters???


What you're describing sounds like something they'd do out of bearing a grudge against you. I've known natives to do similar things like that before when they've got a grudge - their way of leaving a message that it could be you out there rotting instead of an elk.

Do they do that on all of your neighbours' properties also, or only on yours - that you know of? Do your neighbours all hold the same sentiments as you do about them, and are the local natives all aware of your sentiments about them?

.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

naturelover said:


> What you're describing sounds like something they'd do out of bearing a grudge against you. I've known natives to do similar things like that before when they've got a grudge - their way of leaving a message that it could be you out there rotting instead of an elk.
> 
> Do they do that on all of your neighbours' properties also, or only on yours - that you know of? Do your neighbours all hold the same sentiments as you do about them, and are the local natives all aware of your sentiments about them?
> 
> .


Um, no, they do not know me. They are indiscriminate in their killing. But they do kill on my land a lot, because I have awesome habitat, lots of forest areas, water, etc. that I choose to leave intact. My neighbors and I have the same sentiments yes, just like Chief Louie has. The sentiments of natives towards white guys here, is a racist attitude they are raised with. See, natives on reserves here are taught to be defeatist, and to blame old ------ for all that ails them...

I was not raised to hate indians. I do not hate indians. I hate it when people drive over my crops and shoot game animals I give a home to indiscriminately. They could be orange, pink or purple people: I would hate the actions the same.

A little tale for you. I had an indian tin my barn roof. He was awesome. Like Chief Louie, he was disgusted with his reserve neighbors, and told me so. He had trouble getting help, because as he put it, "they were at home in bed with hangovers." The guys who did come help, were awesome individuals. We laughed and joked, and enjoyed each others company. 

A small aside here. It is interesting to note, that apparently, prairie indians have no fear of heights. As they traipsed around 40 feet off the ground, it was plain to see they were fearless. Fear is what kept me on the ground!!!

Again, the natives out here, are obviously VERY different as a whole, than the ones you seem to know. 

I wonder though, if they came on your land, drove over your livelihood, and shot animals in the pasture where your horses and sheep are, and left them at night, while using spotlights, would you enjoy this? Whether they are white, purple, or brown, I want respect. I want my four kids to be safe, and I darn well want the game on my land I preserve for my own use and enjoyment, and eating pleasure, left alone. I detest poaching.

Would you enjoy having this happen to you?


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Some snips from a recent article about bills c-38 and c-45.

http://www2.canada.com/courierislander/story.html?id=5cc6ec8a-7d3f-4220-9208-5ac2429c452a



> About Bills C38, C45
> Courier-Islander
> Published: Wednesday, January 16, 2013
> 
> ...


.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

You need to stop jumping to conclusions about me based on your experiences with natives and what you _think_ are mine.



farmerDale said:


> I was not raised to hate indians. I do not hate indians.


I wasn't raised to hate natives, nor do I hate them, but I do not love them any more than I do any other people. I have no illusions about them but have learned from very early exposure to local native way of life that they do not think or behave the way caucasians do, just like East Indians, Africans, Asians, Hawaiians, Maoris or Australian Aboriginals etc. do not think or behave the way caucasians do. They all have a different mindset that does not just come from the way they're raised but is also something in the genes, in the blood - what I call "bred in the bone". This is a fact of life and I don't care what other people will think about that, as it has been my experience and observation with people of all races.



> A small aside here. It is interesting to note, that apparently, prairie indians have *no fear of heights*. As they traipsed around 40 feet off the ground, it was plain to see they were fearless. Fear is what kept me on the ground!!!


This is true of all natives, not just prairie natives. The Mohawk "skywalkers" are most famous for it but all natives are fearless about heights.



> Again, the natives out here, are obviously VERY different as a whole, than the ones you seem to know.


The native bands west of the Rockies outnumber the natives east of the Rockies.

As I mentioned before in an earlier post, things were different prior to the 1980's and then there were more similarities between western natives and other natives across the nation. Since the 80's there have been more changes in the west as more and more western native bands have gained more autonomy and more self-respect for themselves but NOT ALL western bands reflect such progressive growth. 



> I wonder though, if they came on your land, drove over your livelihood, and shot animals in the pasture where your horses and sheep are, and left them at night, while using spotlights, would you enjoy this? ........ I detest poaching.
> 
> Would you enjoy having this happen to you?


When I was growing up on our respective homesteads we did have such things happen, and much more .... "coyote tricks" beyond imagination, including tricks of a personal nature that I was the object of as a child and enacted against me by native children, some who were even much younger than me ..... until such time as my father came to an honourable understanding and agreement with their local shamans. Then the tricks stopped. They do not respect white man's authority, they only respect the authority of their chiefs and elders, foremost being their shamans.

Even now in some places here, one is taking a great risk by venturing onto reserve lands or into a native village without authority of their elders and shamans. If you drive into a village and aren't recognized as someone having been invited or granted a right to be there you are guaranteed to be confronted aggressively by dogs and small children who will jeer and caper directly in front of your car, throw rocks, mud and worse at you, while their parents and elders look on laughing.

Their concept of what constitutes civilization, civility, respect and honour is very different and in contrast with what caucasians expect from people. It must be earned. Never turn your back on or take for granted any native who has not demonstrated to you without a doubt that they like and respect you very much - otherwise they will trick you.

.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

canadiangirl said:


> One problem with the "pride of ownership" is that they will never own their homes, not sure how that can be fixed but they are forever renters.


That's actually not true or at least it isn't in Alberta. Natives can build their own homes on reserves and there are several banks that have will finance them, the only problem is that not too many want to deal with making mortgage payments. I have several friends who have chosen to build their own homes and make the mortgage payments rather than wait several years for their band houses to be built. 

I grew up very near to a reserve and I think that a lot of people think that the little drunks and panhandlers they see in urban areas is all there is to the native culture and it isn't. There are doctors, lawyers, dentists, working professionals of all types, farmers and ranchers just like there is on the other side of the tracks, unfortunately people don't see them because they're busy working their tails off, just like the rest of us. 

I can't speak for other areas but I know that our residential schools didn't steal kids from their families but a lot of families were unable to raise their children because of alcohol abuse and voluntarily placed their children in the schools.


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## notbutanapron (Jun 30, 2011)

This might be a little too far off topic but I'm thinking about it with the Native comments and how they're raised to think certain ways and what have you...

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html

But just consider these things on the list when you think of how minorities may act and ask for retributions you may not feel they deserve. I think there's a lot to be said for a minorities experiences being brushed aside when addressing issues.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

wr said:


> That's actually not true or at least it isn't in Alberta. Natives can build their own homes on reserves and there are several banks that have will finance them, the only problem is that not too many want to deal with making mortgage payments. I have several friends who have *chosen to build their own homes and make the mortgage payments rather than wait several years for their band houses to be built.*
> 
> I grew up very near to a reserve and I think that a lot of people think that the little drunks and panhandlers they see in urban areas is all there is to the native culture and it isn't. *There are doctors, lawyers, dentists, working professionals of all types, farmers and ranchers just like there is on the other side of the tracks, unfortunately people don't see them because they're busy working their tails off, just like the rest of us. *


I concur with that. The following photos are examples of some of the homes of a reserve in Vancouver, one of the more business oriented bands in BC, the Musqueam band.









































































This is the Musqueam owned golf course.









.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

notbutanapron said:


> This might be a little too far off topic but I'm thinking about it with the Native comments and how they're raised to think certain ways and what have you...
> 
> http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html
> 
> But just consider these things on the list when you think of how minorities may act and ask for retributions you may not feel they deserve. I think there's a lot to be said for a minorities experiences being brushed aside when addressing issues.


An interesting read that makes some good points worth thinking about. Re: the 50 points listed for "Daily effects of white privilege" - I don't know how that may or may not be applicable in Australia - I would say though that I think it is applicable in many places in USA that I've visited, and while Canada is a multicultural country it is still probably applicable in _some_ places in Canada. It's not applicable in British Columbia as the racial demographics in BC are a lot different from elsewhere in Canada except for the cities of Toronto in Ontario, and Montreal in Quebec, which are about equally as multi-racial, multi-cultural as the city of Vancouver in BC.

.


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## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

naturelover said:


> An interesting read that makes some good points worth thinking about. Re: the 50 points listed for "Daily effects of white privilege" - I don't know how that may or may not be applicable in Australia - I would say though that I think it is applicable in many places in USA that I've visited, and while Canada is a multicultural country it is still probably applicable in _some_ places in Canada. It's not applicable in British Columbia as the racial demographics in BC are a lot different from elsewhere in Canada except for the cities of Toronto in Ontario, and Montreal in Quebec, which are about equally as multi-racial, multi-cultural as the city of Vancouver in BC.
> 
> .


Have you not been to Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, Halifax, St Johns?? My experience has been that most large Canadian cities are VERY multicultural. It's also been my experience that, while the multicultural diversity holds true in Vancouver and other large BC centres, if you get away from the cities, the cultural demographics in BC are similar to any other small town on the prairies, in Ontario, or pretty much anywhere else in the country.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

FarmerDale.....for my part, it was good to hear of your varied relationships with the natives.

I was beginning to suspect that you were more of a modern bigot with no sympathy or concern for those men. I stand corrected, as per your sharing that.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Tracy Rimmer said:


> Have you not been to Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, Halifax, St Johns?? My experience has been that most large Canadian cities are VERY multicultural. It's also been my experience that, while the multicultural diversity holds true in Vancouver and other large BC centres, if you get away from the cities, the cultural demographics in BC are similar to any other small town on the prairies, in Ontario, or pretty much anywhere else in the country.


I've been all over BC and Alberta - so yes to Calgary and Edmonton but no to those other cities. I've spent more time travelling through the States than through Canada, that includes seeing some of the native reserves in the States. 

I have no doubt about your observations about other large Canadian cities and demographics in other provinces, my statement is based on racial and multicultural demographics from the last Canada census plus information from a Canadian immigrants discussion forum. Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal are considered the most diverse cities for multiculturalism.

As to demographics in BC - when was the last time you did a road tour through the entire province? Things have changed a lot during the past few years with a massive influx of immigrants into the province. The population has nearly doubled in the province since 1980 and since 1998 it has increased by 1.5 million. New immigrants who qualify are being encouraged to seek out residence and occupations in cities and smaller towns and enclaves outside of the lower mainland, in places where they are needed. We have 2.2 million in the lower mainland and south Vancouver Island and now another 2.4 million spread out further north beyond the lower mainland/island.

.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Forerunner said:


> FarmerDale.....for my part, it was good to hear of your varied relationships with the natives.
> 
> I was beginning to suspect that you were more of a modern bigot with no sympathy or concern for those men. I stand corrected, as per your sharing that.


Well, my moms best friend is a native lady who long ago left the reserve. She couldn't handle it anymore. I am glad you don't think I am a bigot. I seriously have a lot of compassion for the native folks. White people did them wrong when they reserved them and signed the treaties. But it is time to get past that. I was as born here as any 35 year old native person was. 

I hope things move forward in the whole issue. We are all Canadians, we all deserve a fair shake in life, equality, and happiness. I think it mostly needs to start with inspirational chiefs. Not chiefs of the Theresa Spence variety...


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

The Canadian government knows, as the US government knows;

The best way to (somewhat invisibly) wipe out a troublesome populace is to deny them natural selection for a century or so. Confine them to a mind and spirit numbing facility (reservations, projects, etc.) give them lots and lots of dollars and let them rot.

Who is to blame ?


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

When I used to deliver construction equipment in Toronto I used to deliver to steel companies who put the structural steel up for the tall buildings downtown. A couple of the crews I delivered to were all Natives and they were friendly, hard working guys with quite a sense of humor. They were more than willing to direct traffic if I had to back my rig in somewhere or unload machines in the street.

Many years ago I worked a summer for a consulting engineering company that was building a bridge on the First Nations reserve in Caledonia. Part of the requirements of the construction contract was that a certain percentage of the workers had to be Native hires from the reserve. These were the laziest, most combative people I've ever worked with, they completely hated being told what to do and constantly criticized the engineers about design work.

I know every group has people of different motivation levels. The general population has a range of people from Astronauts and successful big business people all the way to lifetime welfare recipients. It's up to each individual to work within the framework of the system they're in to better themselves. The Jews are probably the most persecuted group of people in history and they seem to own everything. If some Natives can rise above their circumstances and better themselves there's no reason the others can't.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Forerunner said:


> The Canadian government knows, as the US government knows;
> 
> The best way to (somewhat invisibly) wipe out a troublesome populace is to deny them natural selection for a century or so. Confine them to a mind and spirit numbing facility (reservations, projects, etc.) give them lots and lots of dollars and let them rot.
> 
> Who is to blame ?


It may be different in the US but Canadian natives are not confined to the rez and there is nothing requiring a native to do so. They can move and work freely across the country but they will live like the rest of us, paying mortgages/rentals and taxes and I know many who do and they continue to thrive.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I was referring to the welfare and subsidized life and health care equation, not necessarily confining my point to natives on either side of the border, but to show that government subsidies never build strong people, nor strong societies, having had the opposite effect from day one.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I wouldn't want anyone to think any US indians are confined to the rez. Many still stay there because of family and a prefernce for society. Comfort zone. 
I can remember when I thought that Canada was going to spilt up due to the Quebecois seperation stuff years ago. But they hung together after all, more or less.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Forerunner, the natives I'm familiar with are not on welfare or subsidized lifestyles and our health care is a lot different than yours so it really doesn't factor into the equation. Some may chose to live on welfare or such but most don't (those that don't aren't claiming they feel opressed or hard done by), they have utilized the many resources available, educated and worked their way up the corporate ladder just like everybody else.


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## justin_time (Dec 2, 2012)

naturelover said:


> The population has nearly doubled in the province since 1980 and since 1998 it has increased by 1.5 million. New immigrants who qualify are being encouraged to seek out residence and occupations in cities and smaller towns and enclaves outside of the lower mainland, in places where they are needed. We have 2.2 million in the lower mainland and south Vancouver Island and now another 2.4 million spread out further north beyond the lower mainland/island.
> 
> .


You have that right! I left Victoria in 81, returned for the first time in 2011. Unbelievable how packed together everyone is, the whole lower part of the island is built up. Dont recognize the inner harbour at all, the house boats all cleared out, bums, drunks, druggies and panhandlers everywhere, nothing is British about it anymore, and everyone so grumpy now. Wont be back again, maybe up island is better...

PS: came out of the store there, its evenning, dark, and raining (ofcourse) I walk over to my rental car and as I am walking by it I see a scratch by the front tire, I crouch down to look at it, and am thinking great how am I going to explain this to the rental company, I may have started swearing at his point. I can hear a couple guys behind me talking in Chinese as I am looking at the scratch, I walk over to the door and I am fumbing for my keys, with my mind on this scratch, and these Chinese guys are real excited, and coming up fast behind me. I turn to meet them not understanding a thing they are saying They stop when I turned as bigger things than them have fallen from my fork. So where standing there, looking at each other, there talking to me but I dont understand a thing in Chinese. I am just shaking my head trying to figure out what the hell their problem is, when I glance over and notice on the passenger seat is a bottle of pop.....I didnt have a bottle of pop! ....Now im really confused, and step back from the car, I just stand there for a moment, looking at the car then them, and a few more of them are showing up from somewhere, all still talking in Chinese, now I have four around me with the car on the other side. I look over the car and what do I see..... My rental car...Exact same as theirs! (without the scratch) . I point over their car to mine, and after a second, we all just nod and laugh. What are the odds of two identical cars? Point is 20 years back, we would have been comunicating just fine, now, like I say, nothing British about the place but the name...


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

justin_time said:


> You have that right! I left Victoria in 81, returned for the first time in 2011. Unbelievable how packed together everyone is, the whole lower part of the island is built up. Dont recognize the inner harbour at all, the house boats all cleared out, bums, drunks, druggies and panhandlers everywhere, nothing is British about it anymore, and everyone so grumpy now. Wont be back again, maybe up island is better...


Yup, the south island has become unrecognizable in the past few years with all the development that has been going on. Matter of fact, the few places that are still undeveloped, still in the natural state, well .... many of those are private agricultural lands or else they are those lands that belong to the natives.

As to the bums, drunks, druggies and panhandlers everywhere in Victoria - only about 3% of those people are British Columbians. The other 97% of them are all homeless drifters that have arrived from across the rest of all of Canada. They come because Victoria (and Vancouver) is the warmest place in Canada during the winters and they know they can safely live and forage outdoors without freezing to death ...... and then once they get there they stay permanently. 

The same thing has happened in Vancouver and the southwest lower mainland with homeless drifters arriving from the rest of the country because the winters are so temperate to practically non-existent in the lower mainland. Haven't really had a normal winter in the lower mainland for 4 years now, conditions remain warm like early spring conditions throughout the winter months. Fortunately the majority of the homeless in the lower mainland GVRD have confined themselves to their own enclave in the notorious DTES. The DTES is an area about 5 blocks wide and 10 blocks long that has all necessary support services and resources and where the homeless residents there have learned to band together and contribute their own services to the homeless community.

.


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## triple divide (Jan 7, 2010)

Lord, no! Please! The lockout just ended!


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## notbutanapron (Jun 30, 2011)

naturelover said:


> An interesting read that makes some good points worth thinking about. Re: the 50 points listed for "Daily effects of white privilege" - *I don't know how that may or may not be applicable in Australia* - I would say though that I think it is applicable in many places in USA that I've visited, and while Canada is a multicultural country it is still probably applicable in _some_ places in Canada. It's not applicable in British Columbia as the racial demographics in BC are a lot different from elsewhere in Canada except for the cities of Toronto in Ontario, and Montreal in Quebec, which are about equally as multi-racial, multi-cultural as the city of Vancouver in BC.
> 
> .


Aboriginals. Asians. Indians. We have a lot of these around here. A LOT of Muslims, which judging by this forum, would scare the bajeesus out of half of you, haha.

I think it's very applicable - or, at least, makes you think about what you're saying or getting into when you discuss things with someone who has less opportunity than yourself. I am more able to check myself and realize my experiences as a white person [especially since I only look white but I'm not, I see how half my family is treated and the other half is a bit easier] are not the same experiences as someone of a different culture, colour, heritage, language, etc.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

triple divide said:


> Lord, no! Please! The lockout just ended!


Another hockey fan. Go Wild,


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Ultimately, I don't feel Canada is headed toward civil war in the near future but I do expect a lot of howling and complaining and we'll do what we always do. We'll sort things out and carry on.


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

wr said:


> Ultimately, I don't feel Canada is headed toward civil war in the near future but I do expect a lot of howling and complaining and *we'll do what we always do. We'll sort things out and carry on*.


Exactly! :thumb:

.


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