# color genetics in poodles . . . .



## sherry in Maine (Nov 22, 2007)

Hi, I used to know (or at least be interested in) color genetics for rabbits.

Now my question is this-

if I have a black girl out of a 'red' father, does she carry the gene for red?
Or, is red just a dilute of something else?
I know it also depends on the color of who she mates with.

Is it possible to breed her with parti color male black/white (have to look up his parents colors) and still possibly have a red pup?

and does anyone have a good website to study up on this. I used to refer to a rabbit website, when dd bred rabbits. Something like that for dogs?

thanks
Sherry


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

unless she has parti in her background you will end up with a bunch of solids and mismarked poodles.


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## sherry in Maine (Nov 22, 2007)

Hi, I dont know enough about this; what do you mean by mismarked poodles?

I have to look, but dont believe she does have any parti color in her background.

How about a solid color dog? I am not doing this, just thinking about certain dogs and the outcomes of color.


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

http://arpeggiopoodles.tripod.com/colorbreedinginpoodles.html This should answer your questions. I was looking for a color chart on poodles as they have one for collies in our breed "handbook", but was unable to fnd one.

Looks like in poodles black is dominant according to this page, where as in collies, black (tri color) is a true reccssive. So the short answer would be that if you have black, only black pups would be produced. But looking at this page I am seeing her say to breed black to brown or red to increase the richness of color in the brown or red and to prevent the fading gene from acting....so that tells me black in poodles is NOT dominant, but reccessive and can be carried by other colors. Maybe someone else can jump in here, but I am thinking black is reccessive- which means to get black you have to have black carried by both parents.
So along those lines of thinking...if she is a black out of a red sire, the sire carried black (as did the dam)...or no black pups would have been possible. Red is not a dilute color in any event...red is a different color. Dilute for red would be apricot. If black is a true reccessive in this breed, then breeding her with another black (or pari) would not give you red pups- it would give you only black pups (or parti)...from the site....
Breeding a piebald to a solid dog will usually always produce solids and abstract (mismarked) puppies, UNLESS, once again, that solid colored dog carries the piebald gene.


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## GoldenMom (Jan 2, 2005)

First let me state that I don't really know color genetics in dogs-my breed only comes in one color (or a variation of one color). I'm not sure why black could not be dominant if it increases richness when bred to reds/brown? If black is dominant, the dog only needs to carry one black gene, the other gene could easily be red/brown or it could be black. If that other gene is for red/brown (recessive), then when the dog is bred to a red/brown dog half the pups would be red/brown and half would be black but for sure carry the red/brown gene. I'm sure there are other modifiers at work along with the black and red/brown genes, and a black dog is probably more likely to carry modifier that cause a "richer" expression of red/brown and more likely to carry genes that give darker pigment.

Perhaps poodle color genetics is similar to labs? The rest of this paragraph is from: http://www.labbies.com/genetics2.htm#E+. Labs have one set of genes for black and brown. "B" is black and is dominant, "b" is chocolate and is recessive. To complicate things they also have another set of genes that allows or disallows the "B" or "b" genes to be expressed: "E" or "e". A dog with one or two "E" genes will be black or chocolate. A dog with two "e" genes will be yellow. To complicate things further there are a couple of sets of genes that will determine how light or dark a yellow dog will be. Then there are dilution genes (responsible for "silver").

I don't know ANYTHING about piebald and white markings.


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

http://www.canine-genetics.com/pdlcolor.html

this is a good tutorial. Dr Armstrong was a great help on the genetic understanding of poodles. Colour inheritance is not always straighforward int he Poodle. You need to know what colours are int he background of the dog. The PHR database is a good help as well as poodlepedigree both east to find sites.


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

Basic colour genes. Black dominant, Brown a dilute of black. Red ,Apricot, creme all fading genes in brown. Beige, SIlver Beige,Platimnum all fading genes in brown.You have blue,grey, silver all variations of black fading or otherwise. White tends to be recessive to almost all unless you have 2 white genes to match up. Parti is recessive to solid you cannot get a parti unless both parents carry the gene. Then you have colour inheritance as well. Brindle and Phantom are different genes than Parti spotting. Tuxedo is being considered more of a mismark pattern than a true parti gene. 

It's pretty complex. There is no guarantee your ***** will caryr the red gene unless you test for it.


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## sherry in Maine (Nov 22, 2007)

thank you all for the explanations and the links! I have read some and plan on reading the rest soon. Did some research on my own as well.

It's very interesting . . . . . . And an ongoing interest as well.

Thank you all again!
Sherry


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

And here I thought poodles just came in black, grey, apricot and white. :S


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

http://poodlepedigree.com/xxfivegen.asp?ID=385149&type=color

here's a link to my male father who I OWNED IT'S HIS 5 GENERATION COLOUR PEDIGREE. He ws born lt aapricot but eneded up a dark cream. His son if a cream out of an ice white dam. If you look at the sire he was a black out of a brown/apricot parenting showing how black can be a recessive gene.

http://poodlepedigree.com/xxfivegen.asp?ID=385553&type=color

Here' my *****'s pedigree not fully complete on colour but it gives you an idea looking at what you cna get in parti's her sire is actually abrindle patterned parti.


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## GoldenMom (Jan 2, 2005)

HOTW said:


> http://poodlepedigree.com/xxfivegen.asp?ID=385149&type=color
> 
> here's a link to my male father who I OWNED IT'S HIS 5 GENERATION COLOUR PEDIGREE. He ws born lt aapricot but eneded up a dark cream. His son if a cream out of an ice white dam. If you look at the sire he was a black out of a brown/apricot parenting showing how black can be a recessive gene.
> 
> ...


I wonder if apricot is like yellow/red in goldens and labs? The "ee" gene masks the true color and doesn't allow it's expression. The apricot may genetically be a black dog ("Bb" or "BB"), but since the dog is also "ee" instead of "Ee" or "EE" it appears apricot. So I could see where the black would appear to be recessive, but it's simply because a whole different gene masks the true color, not because the dog is not genetically black.


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

Apricot is a fading gene. Cream is a double fade of apricot. You get the same thing with brown, beige is a dilute , silver beige is a further fade and platinum is the terminal fade..LOL Brown is a different gene, it stays unless it has the fade gene which is why yu have to be carful with colour breeding in Poodles, unless you know that you do not have a fading gene in your colours you can lose a lot of colour.


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## GoldenMom (Jan 2, 2005)

Very interesting. Aren't genetics fun? I think I'll stick with my goldens-you ALWAYS know you're going to get gold (just not the shade!).


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Goldenmom, that's why I prefer dogs that have different coloring. I can't stand a dog breed that looks similar. Too boring for me. I highly prefer catahoulas but breeding them can be quite tricky.

As for poodles, at one time they only came in solid colors...that was because breeders were culling the pups that had come out in two or more colors. Research proved that there USED to be poodles with different colors, etc...so they started allowing it. Same thing with chihuahuas and dachshunds. Shouldn't be culled because a color isn't common but do have to watch the piebalds and merles though due to possibility of deafness/blindness in the pups.


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

In Poodles the oroginal colour was black then they began getting mismarks with white then pure white, partis used to show up in breedigns way back for a long tiem, then the Standard was written and all but a select few countries eliminated the gene and strove for pure solid breeding. Then htye began to get dilutions of brown, grey silver, and when they bred those for colour they strengthened the fading gene. Patis' have always been around however phantom and brindle were newer patterns that may have been introduced thru other breding to different breed sbut no-one's talking!

My male has anceestors from one of the oriingal UK breeders who refused to stop breeding Parti's and would not cull them and tried to rescue them along with a few other breeders. Teh crazy thing is some of the older whites fromt he lines with Parti's did not have to br crossed with blacks for pigment enhancement, if anything I think th ePartis gene allowed better pigment. The first UKC Ch Parti was born from solid lines out of mismarked parents which shows the gene can be carried many generations and pop back out!


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

HOTW said:


> Patis' have always been around however phantom and brindle were newer patterns that may have been introduced thru other breding to different breed sbut no-one's talking!


I've seen phantom, but I've never seen a brindle poodle, I didn't even know they existed! Photos?

I've heard that schnauzers were interbred with poodles to get the black color in schnauzers... perhaps some of those were bred back to poodles and that's where the phantom markings came from?


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## HOTW (Jul 3, 2007)

http://smithpoodles.com/Standard_Poodles_Puppies_-_Part.html

this page has all the colour patterns on it I don't recommend them for a place to buy!

There is a lot of questions about how the pahntom colour got into the breed but some people feel it may be a varaition that has occured due tot he fading gene. I know of someone who has a phantom silverbeige/apricot out of a pure solid line of silver/blue. Even with creams and apricots really anything with a fading gene you will get shade variations which soem breeders fele has led tot he phantom pattern. Now brindle is trickier soem people feel it was introduced thru a n Afghan breding experiment but no'one talks that might know. It is known that the Red in the STd was brought in by breeding red Minis to Std then breeding the size and type back up, some modern breeders have done the Mino crosses to bring more diversity into the gene pool. Mnay years ago Mini's were used to set the Toy type to meet the same standards as the Mini and Std Poo. Breeding an dHistory of the Poodle is incredibly diverse and cmplex...LOL

I have heard that Terriers were used to harden the Poodle coat which could be feasibel t would be interesting as the genetic tests get better to take broad samples and see what type of DNA shows up in different lines of Poodles from other countries.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

HOTW said:


> http://smithpoodles.com/Standard_Poodles_Puppies_-_Part.html
> 
> this page has all the colour patterns on it I don't recommend them for a place to buy!


No kidding... puppymill city. But I have to say, the brindle is quite attractive.


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