# Help with Covexin-8 lumps, please



## julie1917 (Jan 6, 2008)

I hope some one can help me with what do about Covexin-8 lumps. I know that this vac. causes these, but they haven't went away. It is coming up on a year now since giving the shot(s). We don't have a livestock vet in our area. Should I use a needle and drain these lumps? They are exactly at the shot place. Your help and advice would be greatly appreciated.

Julie


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

I give my shots in the muscle because of lumps. Your goats have good immunity so there bodies are fighting the shots.


Patty


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

I wouldn't let them go a year. I watch the shot sites and if after a few weeks they don't go away, I rub them with Brace. It comes in a little dauber bottle, it's DMSO and some other stuff. It will help it dissapate.

I also give most vaccine IM and I don't use Covexin 8. Vicki


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

I tried the dmso on injection sites and did not have much of a result. How long should you use it ?


Patty


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

dmso would help in swelling and bruises but not encapsulated abscess. that is what most of the knots are.


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## nubiansinny (Jul 31, 2007)

Vicky what do you use?
You tell lots of people to use covexin 8, if i'm not mistaken.. i might be(brain drain!)
Is there anything similare to it on the market? like generic?
Or a better choice?
I would like to use it but... I don't like the lumps either. My one doe absseses when she gets it. Yuck!
Does giving it IM make no lumps?
Anyone know...please share!


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

No the only time I recommend someone moves from plain CD&T shots to Covexin 8 is if you have sheep  or if you have been diagnosed with malignant edema/gangrenous mastitis. We covered this in another thread, but it contains at least 3 clostridiums that goats do not get, so why vaccinate them for it if you don't have to.

A granuloma forms when you give a shot to goats with good immunity, unless you have a dirty technique that drags dirt into the shot and then yes it forms an abscess which DMSO will do nothing for.

But to make the granuloma go down you simply a coupe of times a day, I do it during lambars if I have vaccinated early for pnemonia (when I sell kids south) but mostly I just give the shot IM.

For a true abscess I would have the vet remove it so you are dealing with a pretty tiny scar and not a burst site like CL. Also a good reason not to give vaccine subq over areas that could have CL sites.

Patty you can see it absorbing really quickly, you can do the same thing for pennicillin or tetracycline when it leaves lumps after the course of drugs is given. Vicki


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

if the injection side is cleaned properly and the needle inserted through the skin and not only between the hide and skin, rarely will you see an abscess. 
if not clean practice, i'm sure you will get the same knot in the muscle, although not visible for us and therefore tot boggling our mind, i'm sure it hurts more.


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## kabri (May 14, 2002)

We've given our sheep 8-way for years and sometimes they abscess and sometimes they don't. We've always done sq in the neck area because I've ready in several places that it can leave meat scarring in an animal destined to be butchered.(found the link) I'm very interested in this discussion because we will be getting goats after we move and I'm trying to learn the differences in management!

added: oh yeah, we use the exact same sanitation procedure when we give our shots, so I have to assume at this point that it's an immunity reaction to the shots.


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

There are 2 totally different reasons for abcesses/ lumps we are talking about . 1 from getting dirt into the needle track and the other from your goats own immunity causeing a lump .

Dmso{brace} will work with reason # 2 

I give all my cd/t shots im now. My goats almost always get a lump . A lump is not to be confissed with an abcess.


Patty


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## DixyDoodle (Nov 15, 2005)

According to the instructions on the Canadian version of Covexin 8, it is to be subcutaneous (in skin) not intramuscular. Not sure if or how this might affect the potency, but I think it is always prudent to check with the vet before giving a shot in a manner not mentioned in the instructions. I'm not wanting to argue over that either, just saying that it is not the recommended way.

Where did you give the shot? Covexin label says over the chest wall near the shoulder area. Which is great because I would hate to give shots that might leave a lump near the neck, where it might be confused with the typical "CL" bump. 

I gave the C8 to 16 goats here (new clean needles and syringes each time)and none developed a lump, thank goodness!


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

Patty0315 said:


> Dmso{brace} will work with reason # 2
> 
> I give all my cd/t shots im now. My goats almost always get a lump . A lump is not to be confissed with an abcess.
> 
> ...


if you always get a knot, you are not giving the injection correctly.
a lump is always an abscess. there are different reasons for an abscess.
there can be a swelling like edema under the skin, but that looks and feel different and will always go away by itself, maybe faster with dmso (not for animals producing food  ). 

here is something to read about granuloma and what it is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granuloma


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Granulomas form when the immune system attempts to fend off and isolate an antigen. The antigen can be an infectious pathogen or a foreign body
........................

Exactly! In this case the killed vaccine is the foreign body. In fact if you call and talk to the makers of the vaccine it is nearly word for word what they will tell you is happening when you get 'lumps' from vaccine. Vicki


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

I beg to differ and maybe I am wrong . I do not get lumps or abcesses from giving antibiotics , b vit etc. So my technique is fine. I get lumps from giving cd/t. I do not believe it is an abcess . It never pusses , in fact if you were to stick a needle in it you would not get puss.

Maybe my goats are just super healthy :shrug:


Give whatever shot were ever you would like.

If I did everything a vet said to do I would have dead goats.


Good luck..........

Patty


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## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

Mine always get a lump from the CDT. It goes away after a few weeks to a month. Clean needles every injection with rubbing skin briskly before & after. 
As for any discolration in the meat, it is miniscule and they dont go unless withdrawl time way over.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

I know only for Bar Vac CD&T, I spoke directly with them when the label was changed from IM or subQ to SubQ only. It was for cattle so cuts of meat were not ruined by the granulomas that were left in the muscle meats. Why I know although the label has been changed I still do give it in the muscle, and yes the granuloma is just hidden in the muscle.

Patty I had a bloodline of Nubians that I simply could not give much of anything subq, even Ivermectin, they would not just abscess, but the abscess (which is not what they were) would grow adhesions into the surrounding blood supply).

If you are for sure giving it under the skin, not in the fat, than I would move to IM shots. Vicki


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## nubiansinny (Jul 31, 2007)

Thanks for the lesson! I don't get lump with the cd-t at all.
When i got my girls they were vacc with covexin8 and all had lumps at the site. one did abcess and burst(yuck). she is very sesative to any shot.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

i vaccinated all my kids and all adults with covexin8 this year. i have not seen an abscess from it yet. one doe got a bruise, but she always get this, no matter what kind of injection i give her. takes a couple of weeks to get away all by itself.


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## DixyDoodle (Nov 15, 2005)

> If I did everything a vet said to do I would have dead goats.


I agree with that, although I also think it's prudent to get advice or at least a second opinion from somewhere other than a small handful of people on HT if you are doubftul. I've gotten lots of good advice here, but have to say in a few cases the advice is "debateable" or "not proven" or "prone to cause a flame war" ....thinking of DE, for example?  Dont go there! LOL

Covexin 8 label here says, there "may" be a lump but should resolve within 2 weeks. I guess if the lump is there longer, consult an expert, maybe have the lump examined.


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## kclementsdvm (Feb 5, 2008)

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians said:


> I wouldn't let them go a year. I watch the shot sites and if after a few weeks they don't go away, I rub them with Brace. It comes in a little dauber bottle, it's DMSO and some other stuff. It will help it dissapate.
> 
> I also give most vaccine IM and I don't use Covexin 8. Vicki


DMSO is illegal to use in food animals. Yeah, it can really help to bring down swelling, but it is illegal due to residue issues. I would strongly advise people to avoid DMSO unless you're using it on a horse.


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

Well if your a Vet advising not to use it could you tell us what we can use ?

Patty


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

this is not vet advise, this is FDA rule


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## Patty0315 (Feb 1, 2004)

From the name KCLEMENTSDVM I would assume the poster above me was a Vet .

Patty


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

oh, i did not see that.

so, what would a vet recommend to reduce the incidence of a vaccination abscess or how to reduce the swelling that comes with it?


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

If your vet gives you Brace that contains DMSO it's of course extra label use. If we only used things that were on label for our goats our goats would look like crap. Espcially what a government agency knows about dairy goats they think they are sheepandgoats aka....hair sheep. Vicki


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## kclementsdvm (Feb 5, 2008)

Hey there! Sorry to have taken so long to respond. (Things have been really busy at work lately, so I haven't been able to spend much time on the boards. Working my way back through today.)

Yes, I am a vet, and I do understand that most stuff used in goat medicine is used off label (frequently also known as extra-label). There is still a difference between extra-label and what I call "against-label." Some things are not labeled for use in goats - often just meaning that the company did not deem in worth their while to go through all the testing to get FDA approval for that drug in that species. After all, they have to juggle cost of the process versus likely income from that approval. So we don't have a lot of drugs that are labeled for sheep and goats. For something that is not banned for use in food animals, we can extrapolate from other species and use it "extra-label." Usually we'll give a longer withdrawal time to be safe, so that the owner avoids residue problems with meat or milk.

The difference here is for something that is actually banned for use in food animals. DMSO, gentocin, chloramphenicol, and bute are just a few examples. I can use those drugs freely in horses (though I still write "not for slaughter" when I dispense those drugs to horse owners - basically a CYA), but I am prohibited from using them in a food animal.

So for lumps on a client's food-producing animal, I recommend sticking a needle in it and aspirating to see if there is any pus. If yes, then I lance and drain the abscess, possibly also giving antibiotics if the animal has a fever. If not, then I recommend hotpacking twice daily for 15 minutes if tolerated. 

Yep, I know that the DMSO works great, and I know that soem food animal clients get it and use it anyway, but it's illegal in food animals. Not my rule - that's the FDA's rule, because of residues in food going for humans. And I value my license. 

Hope that clarifies things a bit.


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## thatcompchick (Dec 29, 2004)

I switched from Bar-Vac to Essentials 3+T (Colorado Serum) and haven't had a problem with granulomas. I do have a doe that had a granuloma for over a year - I didn't give her the shot, so I don't know what happened there. I see a lot of them though because people don't inject the vax properly. 

Another reason Bar Vac vs E3+T difference is the carrier.

Andrea


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