# The Survival Rifle



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

If you could pick one rifle for all your survival needs and to take you through your entire lifetime, what would it be?

I just found (and purchased) a Mauser Model 98. I'm not entirely sure that's my ultimate rifle yet, but time will tell.


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## tn_junk (Nov 28, 2006)

30-06.
Kill anything that moves and ammo is available 'bout anywhere.

alan


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## cchapman84 (Jan 29, 2003)

I would say an SKS, but only because I'm very comfortable using one (not a whole lot of rifle experience, other than .22, SKS, & AK).

They are also pretty straight-forward guns, and can withstand a lot of punishment, as can an AK-47. If I was restricted to just one, I'd want something reliable.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Congrats on the new adoption, poor little thing been waiting on you for a while.
Not many left around.
Good solid rifle, will and has lasted over 100 years already 
Anyway: 
What caliber is it? 8mm or 7.62?
Original surplus or sporterized?
What are you gonna use it for, hunting, target shooting, or Zombie attacks?


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

A good old over under 20guage/lr22 would meet most peoples needs.

I think the real issue, Are you talking survival weapon or are you talking protection weapon?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

It's the 1898 model, non-customed. No sport modifications at all. 8mm. I love it.  For me it's the general use rifle. Shoot varmints. Hunt. Protection. Keep it stored for the eventual revolution.

When I talk about a survival rifle, I mean an all-around rifle. You'll do anything and everything with that one piece.


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## MtnDan (Apr 23, 2008)

Survival rifle? I own quite a few firearms...but in an emergency grab bag situation, It would be my .22 marlin papoose hands down! You can kill just about everything with good shot placement (Elk and Black bear right behind the ear usually drops them) and the amount of ammo you can carry compared to a high powered rifle is just astronomical. Again, thats my experience and my own humble opinion. 
If I got to stay near home and didnt have worry about packing ammo on my back, along with other supplies, it would prolly be one of my varmint rifles.


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

Whelp, here we go again with the my gun's better then your gun question.

I will have to second Gary in Ohio's recommendation as I have owned one since I about 1973. It's small enough to hunt small game, big enough to hunt big game, and if you wiat till you can see the whites of their eyes it's good enough for home protection. 

The Savage over&under is a all around piece.


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## vallyfarm (Oct 24, 2006)

Any good 12 ga pump shot gun. Able to shoot anything from a .50 cal (slugs) to birdshot. Not much will take a slug and still keep towards you. Ablr to defend and protect well. And as everyone knows, if someone breakes into your home and hears that action rake, the only thing left to do is clean up the stein the badguy left on the carpet. From elephants to quail, this weapon is ideal for any and every situation. Mike


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## Chuck-prime (Jul 24, 2007)

Ernie said:


> If you could pick one rifle for all your survival needs and to take you through your entire lifetime, what would it be?
> 
> I just found (and purchased) a Mauser Model 98. I'm not entirely sure that's my ultimate rifle yet, but time will tell.



Check out the blog www.warrifles.com. There are tons of threads on this issue.


Whatever you're conclusions are, whatever you plan on investing in, let us know.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I'm still piddling, but I have somewhat of a concept of a set of guns for my sons. Legacy guns they can take with them when they go off to start families of their own. Or perhaps a small set of guns oiled up and packed away in a cache somewhere. Waiting for their eventual need. 

Shot the new Mauser for awhile today. Incredible gun. Just really well put together. However I agree with Mike to a large extent. My Mossberg 12 gauge is probably more useful for me as a general farm weapon. The Mauser can reach out and touch something, but I can't take aim and fire quickly, and it's awful heavy to just throw to your shoulder and fire and expect reasonable accuracy. In kneeling or prone position though I can do pretty well.


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Hi Guys,
I suggest you try a SMLE inext n .303 British or the Isapore vertion in .308 Win. Lovely tough rifles and the matching sword bayonets are easy to find and its one of the few rifles bayonet combination that can really be called a pike.
There is just something about adding a foot and a half of knife to the end of a rifle that really intimidates the scum.
Not to mention they are cheap .303 ammo isn't as cheap as it was but its still not bad.
Dutch


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

One of the problems I have is that I'm not a stellar marksman. I don't get enough time to practice and I don't understand all the elements that play into the shot. So some of the rifles that work really well for some don't do so hot for me. I guess they're just geared to shooting out in the 50+ yard range where I have trouble hitting.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

The 98 Mauser is an exceptional weapon. I have more experience with the 8mm than the 7.62, but greatly prefer the 8mm.

I'd happily have one as my only firearm.


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## longshot38 (Dec 19, 2006)

if your reliable shooting is restricted to less than 50yards i do suggest a shot gun, 12 gauge. that is the operational limit of that round, get one with the interchangeable barrels and get the rifled slug barrel for it. this gives you 2 long guns in one and stays in your accuracy envelope.

just my .02
dean


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

That is a bit of a difficult question. Is it survival against the occasional trespasser or attacker? Survival against a group of people? Survival just for food/hunting? What about ammo availability?
If your answer is all of the above, then I don't believe there is only one gun that does it all. A shotgun comes close. Survival against large groups of people with a bolt action or single shot gun will more than likely resuly in your death and those people taking all your toys. large groups require firepower and high capacity magazines that can acquire and take out multiple targets. 
A gun like this though is bad for hunting medium or small game (rabbits squirrels) as the rounds are too powerful and it's impossible to knock down flying food game with a rifle (ducks, geese, grouse, doves, etc). Rifles give you long range capability against attackers that shotguns do not. Shotguns are short range guns that do all your food gathering well, they can take out attackers at short range with buckshot or slugs, and can be used against multiple targets with an extended magazine tube installed on the gun. 

My personal view is I want to avoid a firefight at all costs. They make get a lucky shot and if I'm wounded and there is no doctor, I'm then in serious trouble. I prefer to remain invisible to all other poeple and avoid the firefight scenario. That focuses my gun direction that can be used for hunting mostly, and defending against an occasional attacker. That also then focuses my ammo choice that would be good for a wide range of uses.
My personal choice is the shotgun (Remington 1100).... slugs, buckshot and bird shot. A versatile weapon for my survival scenario.
Ohio Rusty ><>


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Hi Guys,
Remington 1100's are excellent tools, I would learn all you can about there operation and what spares you need. semi-autos are fairly complicated guns. I have both semi-autos, pumps, and break action shotguns. 
I follow the same in depth approch to rifles also but that takes time and money. sharing catridges is a better plan.
Thinking of that I keep wishing someone would come up with a good inexpensive 7.62 X 39 bolt action rifle! 
That would keep a lot of the SKS lovers alive long after the SKS had given up the ghost.
Now don't get me wrong SKS are decent rifles, heavy, complicated and fire a half power round in My not so humble opinion LOL.
Dutch


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## stranger (Feb 24, 2008)

my 50 cal flintlock. 5 cans of powder

not for fighting, just to keep my belly full. like someone else said, avoid a fight at all costs, a wounded man is no good to anyone.
i live in the country so i don't think there'll be any firefights here, it
wouldn't make any sence, in the concrete cities like Baghdag, that's about you can do, in the country with one house every couple miles, they could just be burnt at night from a distance.
might be better off talking to intruders while someone else has a hidden weapon on them.


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

Good point Stranger. I have a .40 flintlock rifle, a .54/.28 gauge smoothrifle and a 12 gauge SxS percussion shotgun also. There are lots of good things about blackpowder guns, especially flintlocks that serve themselves well in a survival situation. It's a one shot weapon so the shooter needs to know it's limitations. But, with not needing brass, primers, reloading equipment, a flintlock longarm can be a big help. Knap your own flint or chert, it will always ignite AND you have an easy way to start a fire. Run out of lead? In a pinch, wheel weights covertly stripped off any car become a source of bullets. All you need is a mould.

I like my 12 gauge SxS gun for hunting. It's a good small game getter, and I can use any size shotgun shell, from the massive 10 gauge 3 1/2 inch magnum to the diminutive .410. Just cut the end off the shell and keep the shot pellets. The gun functions perfectly with real BP or BP substitutes. 
It pays to be flexible in your armament, and having a reliable blackpowder gun is never a bad thing. Blackpowder guns and pistols can be ordered thru the mail, with no one the wiser. Thus, they are an easy weapon to acquire for your weapons cache without all the gov't paperwork that points to you and you owning weapons.

Ohio Rusty ><>


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## gideonprime (Oct 17, 2007)

.22 Long Rifle Good multi purpose easy to use and small enough for kids to handle if necessary. You can kill just about anything with it but you need to be accurate.

Otherwise 30-06. It will take anything down and accuracy is less of an issue. 

JMHO


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## Tom Bombadil (Mar 25, 2008)

It depends on your situation since rifles are just tools to accomplish different jobs. No one tool fits every job. A .22 LR rifle, a good pump 12 gauge, and a good hunting rifle that could be used as a sniper rifle are what I consider a bare minimum and I would add a handgun to that mix before I called it truly complete. And that assumes that you don't need to disable vehicles or will be ammo limited.


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## Jack T. (Feb 11, 2008)

Here's the thing: ammo. Since the question was "survival rifle", you have to assume that the normal channels for obtaining ammo are closed. That makes .303, 8mm, and most other out-of-production/niche calibers useless. . .leaving .223 and .308/30-06, all of which are used by the .gov, meaning there should be a supply in a "survival" situation.

Can't beat a bolt gun for reliability. As much as I want to say my "survival rifle" would be an AR platform, there are too many small parts which, if broken, turn your rifle into a fancy club.


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## Tom Bombadil (Mar 25, 2008)

You are also assuming that you will not be behind enemy lines from foreign invaders and thus only have access to black market Warsaw Pact ammo.


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## Jack T. (Feb 11, 2008)

Tom Bombadil said:


> You are also assuming that you will not be behind enemy lines from foreign invaders and thus only have access to black market Warsaw Pact ammo.


Heh. . .didn't even think of that. That tells you who I'm more worried about, doesn't it.


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## reluctantpatriot (Mar 9, 2003)

I would say if it were one rifle, it would be a FN-FAL, PTK-91 or M1A. If it were two, one of the former three and a AK or SKS pattern. If it were three or four, one each of a .308 and 7.62x39mm semi and matched with a precision bolt action, perhaps with a modification to the feeding area on the bolt actions to accept the same detachable magazines as the semis.

If one were in pure survival with only minor ability to resupply for the long term, trap or snare game and save the cartridge arms for defense purposes.

Personally, I prefer to have a selection to choose from because no one tool can do it all.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

One gun choices are always so difficult...

Do you go with a gun that's overkill for 90% of the shots? But will take down the big critters and zombies? or the gun you shoot 90% of the time, knowing it'd kill zombies at close close range, and take out larger game, if you got close, and got a good shot.

I won't use my 300win mag to kill rats, snakes, turtles, or squirrels... great for deer, hogs, and elk. 

If I went with what I shoot the most, it'd be a .22 rifle... the ammo is cheap and abundant... and many deer have been kilt' with one (although I'd never ever shoot one with a .22, unless it was post TEOTW)... also have killed many a hog with a shot in the ear, with a .22.

My big guns make big noise which could attract zombi's... the .22 much less so... and I'm wanting to get some subsonics...


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## backwoodsboy (May 6, 2008)

A 98 mauser is a great choice, very rugged, reliable, powerfull, fast loading with stripper clips, and most important to me is the abillity to change all parts in a field environment. I once heard someone say that in a survival situation there are more small animals to shoot than the bigger animals, so a .22 would be a good choice also.


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## Geary_Johns (Oct 27, 2007)

As the old saying goes âBeware the man with only one gun, he may know how to use itâ. Regardless to what you get, know how to use it for anything you can think of, and have plenty of ammunition for it.

That said, I recommend and have the following:

Remington 870 12 gauge pump shotgun
Ruger 10/22 22 cal rifle
AR15 223 cal
Savage bolt action rifle 308 cal

I would start out with the first two and work up to the others.


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## Blu3duk (Jun 2, 2002)

The 8mm is under rated mostly because the american writers after the 2nd world war down played the efficiency of the german firearm calibres. 

That said, I prefer the 7x57 for bgg game, though the 9.3x 63 is the cartridge i would have in a double rifle if i went to Africa to hunt the large game there for survival purposes and the fact i cant afford to shoot a big rifle like the 500NE , or 600 NE at 5-20 per pull of the trigger anda firearm that kills ahead and cripple behind. plus the question was on survival, but many african hunters have survived using the double rifles.

If the question is concerning the type of game getter preferredina survival situation the answer is a snare, such a weapon is loaded and active 24-7 ready to get the game intended, and a good trapper never misses [well ok maybe occasionaly the quarry will walk through the snare, but not every set is like that, and snares are fully silenced.

If a person is shooting under 50 yards then a shotgun is preferred, easier to point and recover after a shot, over 50 yards to 250 depending on the type of defense you are figgering a 22-250 in a bolt rifle will get the job done, from 150-500 the 7x57 on a mauser action is the ticket, and from 500-1500 I like my 6.5x55 on the model 96 mauser action..... the only bad thing about the 96 is the ejection is top and not to the side so a scope has to be offset. 

For longevity well made firearms are getting rarer to find, the old mausers though made in a factory under mass productions still had the charactoristics of craftsmanship with them while the other countries were mostly in it for the profit potential of mass selling to the various governments around the world as money rules the roost even back pre-1900. Today many firearms are made as "throw away" or replacable for the reason of marketing, same as then, very few are custom made but those that are are worth the pricetag for passing along to future generations..... you get what you pay for in quality..... and even though the AR platform is higher dollar, it is not counted by me as anyting to last, with a battlefield performance rating of just 6 hours average expectancy [yep have done some homework o the subject of "rambo adreneline promoters"

In all stick to a common calibre, even if that means for now buying someting in a lever action 357 cowboy shooting realm so you can exchange pistol and rifle cartridges, or a 44-40 or 45 long colt, all are good under for 200 yards and i spect the more experienced shooter can mark out farther with them [my Marlin 357 was not one of those i could hit with over 60 yards, but that was the rifle itself not the over all of the breed] 

As far as ammunition goes for the 8mm, a person can use 30.06 cases and stretch the neck to 332 from 308, and cast thier own lead and load with a gas check [piece of copper usually], learn to load yer own and get a book which will tell you which powder works the best with which projectiles, stock on primers and powder, brass will follow. when you buy a rifle, if at a sports shop see if you can get them to toss in a set of dies for the calibre [most wont but they definitely wont if you dont ask] buy a cuople single stage presses and you can be in "bidness" in short order for yourself and family [recycle everything possible, brass , lead and copper can be recovered after most shooting is done unless ona range that does not allow it] 

I have my personal preferences, as do others folks, I like my model 06 Winchester that belonged to my grandmothers brother [he died in 1927 at age 20] new it sold under $40, now a person could not touch the tack driving pea shooter for much under $1000 in decent condition, but it is the action tht makes it a tack driver, though the nut behind the butt usually is the difference for most misses on many firearms..... i would not feel comfortable hunting grizzly with it [on a law abiding side note i do not hunt grizzly at all, and never have] and to stay within the boundaries of the Idaho *** regualtions i do not hunt with it at all since it is a rimfire, but i could use it if I had to. I grew up with 30 calibre "spin cast" as some folks refer to the various .308s and still can drop my quarry with my lever 30-30 though it only has a peep sight [Williams fool proof added years ago] though my eyes are getting so I can not see as well through it. A person has to use their tools enough to be comfortable; with them in any given situation, practice, practice and then practice some more, it aint cheap, but its fun, and reloading takes the price downa bit most of the time.

William
Idaho


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

If I could only have one, it would be a marlin bolt action in .22 mag.

Muleskinner2


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

I've seen these thread pop up on many forums. It always falls down to having about 4 guns.

A good 12 guage, pump.
A good .22 LR
A good .223 or 30-06
A good .50 muzzle loader

I've got enough .22 LR to last me a lifetime and then some. I would stick with that. Hunt with it. Kill varmints with it. And despite all the machismo outrage, defend yourself with it. I don't know any fool who would jump in front of the loaded .22 shouting "Hey! that's only a .22 LR. Go ahead and shoot me!" Especially if hospitals, modern medicine or emergency care no longer exist as they do today! Sepsis is nothing you would want in the absence of modern anti-biotics!

If I didn't have a good ammo supply and would have to resort to pouring my own bullets and making my own powder, I'd stick with the .50 muzzle loader.


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## wilded (May 10, 2002)

Here is an article I wrote on Choosing the Homestead firearm. You might enjoy reading it. Remember it is JMHO. ET :buds:
http://wildedtx.blogspot.com/2008/05/choosing-homestead-firearm.html


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Only "rifle" forever? Lee Enfield #4 mk1* One firearm forever? Pretty much any Winchester Ruger or Browning shotgun in 12 guage because of it's stopping power though I'd rather use a 20 guage.


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## montysky (Aug 21, 2006)

staying with one firearm ... I am going with the old standby 30-06

If I could bring a second .22L 

now if a had to hit a lot of two leggers 308 and a sidearm add a .357 lol now add a 12g

okay I have my five firearms down


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Hi Guys,
Have you priced ammo lately! Holy Cow! I'm glad I have a life time supply of 22 lr on hand. 12 gauge shells are going thru the roof even cheap stuff at Wally world.
Dutch


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## Windy in Kansas (Jun 16, 2002)

Since you specified throughout ones entire lifetime I would probably say the Nylon 66.

Cheap so one can purchase it in mere childhood and become proficient with relatively cheap ammo.

Rather small, pretty dependable, lightweight.

Because of weight would pack/carry easily.

Ideal rifle? By no means but cheap cost and cheap ammo giving affordability means a lot.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Dutch 106 said:


> Hi Guys,
> Have you priced ammo lately! Holy Cow! I'm glad I have a life time supply of 22 lr on hand. 12 gauge shells are going thru the roof even cheap stuff at Wally world.
> Dutch


I've noticed. I'm set on .22lr, although I should probably 'quad' up... and no matter what the price, bulk on common calibers... I'm waiting for a gravy train pipeline transaction that'll allow me to justify extra ammo...


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## crafty2002 (Aug 23, 2006)

Ig I had a weatherby .22 LR rifle I shot a couple of decades ago, I would have to agree with the ones saying a .22 . But I have never before or after that fired a .22 that was as accurate as that rifle was. 
I have no doubt that I could take a deer at 100 yards with it. By the same token, if at war, a head shot to a human would be just as easy at 100 yards.
But if we end up in a bad wtshtf situation, there may be, or I should say there will be people out there with all kinds of weapons and I want something that will reach out and say good night. 
You could have 15 or 20 people around you with rifles that they can hit you at 300-500 yards. What are you going to do. Take pop shots with what sounds like a fire cracker at best to them while they blow you and your family away????
I can stop a convoy coming up 29 north a halve mile away with the 30.06 from my back porch, and they won't even know where it's coming from. 
Stop it dead in it's tracks and them pick them off one at a time. 
I can't do that with a .22 LR,. Nor a shot gun, or anything in black powder. 
"If" I ever get my money right, I am going to send salley back to Remington and have a muzzle brake put on her because she kicks to darned hard for this broke down old body now, but from what I hear, a brake makes all the difference in the world. 

With or with out the brake, I have to go with the .06 ,. I have more ammo for other weapons than I do for the Remingtom, but I know each round I do have will hit the target. 

Now if I were going to Mt., to camp and stay out in the woods for a long length of time, I wouldn't go with out the SKS. There is nothing I would rather have by my side if all of a sudden a grizzly bear came running into camp raising holy hell. 30 rounds would make a meat ball on his shoulders and it wouldn't take long to do so. 

Same thing with being stuck in the middle of a hand full of wacko's. She only shoots one round at a time but she comes back to you faster than you can pull the trigger again. 

And then again I feel like some of the others do, there isn't a one gun for all situations. Everyting has it's on world it likes to play in. 
The .06 like long distance. 
The SKS likes to fight close quarters but will reach on out there. 
The Weatherby I spoke of, it liked punching small holes in things at 100 yards with the precision of a doctors scapple. 
The 9 mm semi's says don't get close to me and then threaten me or it's lights out time.
The shot gun says I can have rabbit, squrirrel, birds and even a deer if it gets close enough, for supper.

It still boils down to what caused the WTSHTF situation to become alive. And it also comes to what you can shoot. I am a rifle man. I ain't worth a dang with a pistol past a few yards, While my DD can hit the black with the 9's on out there. She shames me, but she can't shoot the .06. 

JMHO
Dennis


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Well I would go with my Winchester model 1894 lever action in .357 magnum and my Ruger GP-100 6" heavy target barrel revolver in .357 magnum. Several different available loads are available in that caliber from shotshells, to 125 grain plain lead (round nose or wadcutter), to 158 grain semi-jacketed hollow points. That and I live in heavily timbered area, with a chance for an encounter of less than 200 yards / more likely at 30 yards or less....

I have oodles of ammunition for all of my required calibers, in "spam cans" mostly for the Soviet-Bloc military surplus calibers/ and regular mil-surplus ammunition cans for the other calibers.. Us gun happy Marines like to be prepared, and really hate to run out of ammunition!! Then we have to resort to using our bayonets, or KA-BAR knives,,,,

If I needed/ was firing for long distance, then a bolt action rifle chambered in .30-06 of which I have several/ using my Winchester Model 70 with optics for 500+ yards distant targets. Or pump action shotguns in 12 gauge - Remington 870's/ Winchester 1200. For .22LR weapons, I have more than I can handle, and mucho rimfire ammo for them. 

It would all depend on the situtation. Firearms are like tools. Would you use a shovel to cut wood? An axe to dig a hole?? Different situtations may require different tools.. The same goes for firearms.. One size does not fit all!!


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## Shinsan (Jul 11, 2006)

I'm going with the AIA M10, probably the B2 Match variant. (http://www.marstar.ca/gf-AIA/index.shtm for a look-see.)
Erika likes the look of the Remington 700 VTR, but I don't know much about them. Anybody got any knowledge and/or advice about this particular rifle?


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## cougargnw (Aug 6, 2007)

One gun to run with, huh. I would like to say my Saiga AK. But mags can fail, rust,etc. My Mossberg would be a good choce as well, but extractors can break. My Mosin 44 is about as rock solid as you can ask for, but as rifles go, pretty slow on the follow up shop due to being bolt action.
I plan to have at least 2 of the 3 mentioned as well as my 22 ruger, as well as my S&W pistol.


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## mousecat33 (Jan 9, 2004)

an armed man has the means for independence.....


mc and co


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## Durandal (Aug 19, 2007)

Ernie said:


> If you could pick one rifle for all your survival needs and to take you through your entire lifetime, what would it be?
> 
> I just found (and purchased) a Mauser Model 98. I'm not entirely sure that's my ultimate rifle yet, but time will tell.


I picked up an older Mauser and a boat load of 8mm ammo (couple cases) a while back for about 120.00.

Not a bad deal. Even got some of that nice World War II Black tip AP that is selling at a buck a round these days (maybe even more).

I still will argue that the single best survival gun is a .22LR. My kids and wife can shoot it, its super accurate at 100 yards and its pretty easy to legally own a silencer for them (and man are they quiet). Everyone owns one, the ammo cheap, easy to carry lots of it if needed, and it'll kill most animals I'll see here in Ohio. I've used it to put down stray dogs that were terrorizing my horses and from a distance a couple of my .22s look like lever action Winchester 94s to the uniformed. They can kill a man or at worst, make him think about something other than what he was planning on doing in terms of harm.

I have a couple dozen firearms, all of which I love and I have friends that have all the belt-fed NFA stuff and sub guns and DDs, but the .22 is the only thing I would grab if I could only take one.


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

vallyfarm said:


> Any good 12 ga pump shot gun. Able to shoot anything from a .50 cal (slugs) to birdshot. Not much will take a slug and still keep towards you. Ablr to defend and protect well. And as everyone knows, if someone breakes into your home and hears that action rake, the only thing left to do is clean up the stein the badguy left on the carpet. From elephants to quail, this weapon is ideal for any and every situation. Mike


I believe I'd have to question the wisdom of even attempting to use a 12 guage on elephants, cape buffalo, hippos, rhinos, eland, lions, grizzlies, musk ox or bison much less consider it 'ideal'. Highly questionable for many others.

"Once you've been amongst them there's no such thing as too much gun."


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Wanderer0101 said:


> I believe I'd have to question the wisdom of even attempting to use a 12 guage on elephants, cape buffalo, hippos, rhinos, eland, lions, grizzlies, musk ox or bison much less consider it 'ideal'. Highly questionable for many others.
> 
> "Once you've been amongst them there's no such thing as too much gun."


We don't have many of those around here. 

Though were I in Swahili-land or wherever you find those things then I'd certainly want to pack something big. Maybe something mounted on the truck.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

I know Wyatt Earp used a smoothbore double shotgun when he was market hunting bison. Saved on rifle and ammo costs and was plenty effective. He used full sized balls, I don't think they had slugs then.

And if I was being charged by any of the animal you listed, and I had a 12 gauge, I would be firing at it. I got nothing better to do until I get stomped.


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## crafty2002 (Aug 23, 2006)

Wanderer0101 said:


> I believe I'd have to question the wisdom of even attempting to use a 12 guage on elephants, cape buffalo, hippos, rhinos, eland, lions, grizzlies, musk ox or bison much less consider it 'ideal'. Highly questionable for many others.
> 
> "Once you've been amongst them there's no such thing as too much gun."


If you had ever seen a large buck killed with a 12 gauge 3" slug at close range you just might change your mind about that statement. I saw one that was shot throgh the back from a tree stand and it took a hunk of meat out you could stick your fist in on the bottom side. I was in a stand about 200 feet from him when he shot. as soon as I looked after I heard the shot, the buck was down and not moving. Just about took it's whole heart with it going through it. And that just took one shot.
I would go against any of the above (if I wasn't charged without seeing it in time to take aim) with a simi automatic 12 gauge with the plug out and 5 magnum shells in. No way on Gods green earth any thing could live through that.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

A 12 gauge slug can do some serious damage, but I'm not putting it up against a cape buffalo. At least not the cape buffalo I've read about. Never seen one, but I think if I did, I'd put my faith in a tall, strong tree and my own two legs before I'd put my faith in a gun of any caliber.


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

Ed Norman said:


> I know Wyatt Earp used a smoothbore double shotgun when he was market hunting bison. Saved on rifle and ammo costs and was plenty effective. He used full sized balls, I don't think they had slugs then.
> 
> And if I was being charged by any of the animal you listed, and I had a 12 gauge, I would be firing at it. I got nothing better to do until I get stomped.


Might as well (engender the same reaction as urinating in their face) 'em off if you're going to get stomped any how.


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

crafty2002 said:


> If you had ever seen a large buck killed with a 12 gauge 3" slug at close range you just might change your mind about that statement. I saw one that was shot throgh the back from a tree stand and it took a hunk of meat out you could stick your fist in on the bottom side. I was in a stand about 200 feet from him when he shot. as soon as I looked after I heard the shot, the buck was down and not moving. Just about took it's whole heart with it going through it. And that just took one shot.
> I would go against any of the above (if I wasn't charged without seeing it in time to take aim) with a simi automatic 12 gauge with the plug out and 5 magnum shells in. No way on Gods green earth any thing could live through that.


Deer are nothing like any of the animals listed with the exception of bison. What kills most of these creatures is penetration. With elephants for instance you really need something that's going to give you five or six feet of penetration without hitting bone. Frankly you would be a statistic with any of these creatures if you tried to stop them with 12 gauge slugs. They've certainly been known to kill people after far more damage than is going to be created with a shotgun. Very well constructed, medium velocity bullets out of something larger the .30 caliber is what it takes. A .338 magnum will work for some of them but mostly you want bigger.


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

Ernie said:


> A 12 gauge slug can do some serious damage, but I'm not putting it up against a cape buffalo. At least not the cape buffalo I've read about. Never seen one, but I think if I did, I'd put my faith in a tall, strong tree and my own two legs before I'd put my faith in a gun of any caliber.


.375 H&H on up will usually do the job but one of the 40s is better. Once their adrenalin gets going it's not unknown for it to take five or six rounds to put one down.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Ernie said:


> A 12 gauge slug can do some serious damage, but I'm not putting it up against a cape buffalo. At least not the cape buffalo I've read about. Never seen one, but I think if I did, I'd put my faith in a tall, strong tree and my own two legs before I'd put my faith in a gun of any caliber.


The Brenneke guys seem to think their "Black Magic" 3" is "OK" for buffalo:

http://www.brennekeusa.com/web/pdf/BlackMagic3inch.pdf

3000 foot pounds has got to leave a mark!

Chuck


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## Wanderer0101 (Jul 18, 2007)

Chuck R. said:


> The Brenneke guys seem to think their "Black Magic" 3" is "OK" for buffalo:
> 
> http://www.brennekeusa.com/web/pdf/BlackMagic3inch.pdf
> 
> ...


I"d say that's very misleading advertising and also illegal in every African country I know anything about.


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