# Harness buying questions



## Knesa (Apr 14, 2011)

i was looking into getting a two-wheel cart and harness. i was wondering what type of cart and harness to get. this would be a light cart for a 16h horse.


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## lamoncha lover (Mar 1, 2009)

Hopefully someone that knows will respond. welcome to the forum if I haven't already welcomed you.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

You want a cart that you can balance, something safe of course. 
A good leather harness or Bio like a Zilco would be good harnesses to look into.

I don't know what side of the country you are on, so I will only post a couple of links, that should get you started.

Check out these places, they sell cart and harnesses.
http://www.drivingessentials.com/

http://www.carriagedrivingessentials.com/


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

Shari,
Can you point me in the direction for mini horse and donkey harnesses? I remember you posted a couple links for me awhile back, but I have lost them. I need to get set up for driving our donkey. Would also like a lightweight cart with nubby tires for gravel roads.
Can't afford to spend more than about $500 total for all the equipment.

Also, what type of carts do you recommend for use with miniature horses? I have a friend who is interested in teaching her minis to drive.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

farmergirl said:


> Shari,
> Can you point me in the direction for mini horse and donkey harnesses? I remember you posted a couple links for me awhile back, but I have lost them. I need to get set up for driving our donkey. Would also like a lightweight cart with nubby tires for gravel roads.
> Can't afford to spend more than about $500 total for all the equipment.
> 
> Also, what type of carts do you recommend for use with miniature horses? I have a friend who is interested in teaching her minis to drive.


A good safe Starter cart... an Frontier Easy entry Cart.

For a good harness.. can check out these places. And let any of these folks know what you need and they will be more than happy to help you.

http://www.chimacumtack.com/miniaturehorsetack/miniaturehorseharness.html

http://www.minitack.com/

http://www.starlakefarm.com/tack.html


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## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Easy Entry cart that I've had for many years. 33 inch miniature donkey.










I had the welder put the same attachments on the back of the cart that are on the front of the cart.

I bought the cart for the little donkey and my Dexter steer. They drove separate and together. 

The cart came with 20 inch tires. I'm putting 24 inch tires on the cart so I can drive my mule. I already have different size shafts.

I really like the Easy Entry. Don't have to throw your leg over a pole.


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Personally my back can't handle an Easy Entry any more. But in the past I had them.

Now I drive in a Country Road Cart... and it is as smooth as a Rolls!
But I only recommend them for mini's 34" and taller.
http://www.countrycarriagesusa.com/


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

Thanks for the links 

I still need to learn all the terminology....


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I have been dreading replying to this post. 

Farmergirl and Knesa - do either of you currently drive? Do your horses already drive?

If either your or your horses are green to driving, I dearly hope that you have someone that can help you with your equipment selection in person. When driving, the quality of your equipment becomes so terribly important. Think of it like hiking versus rock climbing. When hiking, you can get away with using flimsy or inexpensive equipment. I mean, what's the worst thing that will happen? Something might be uncomfortable. Or something might break and you'll have to go home. But when you are rock climbing, the strength and quality of your equipment can be the difference between life and death... not every time, but definitely when something goes wrong. As long as you have a good hold on that rock, it's okay if your pitons aren't driven in deep enough or your rope is frayed or not very stout. But if you slip, you will want your safety equipment to function correctly. 

When driving, as long as things are going smoothly, you can get away with having flimsy or lightly-built equipment. But all it takes is brief sideways spook to bend a cheap hollow pipe shaft. All it takes is a short bolt forward a few feet to hit a rock or a ditch and collapse a cheap lightweight bicycle-spoke tire. And usually, that first simple equipment failure is just the start of the *real* wreck. Things usually snowball from there. I have seen so many wadded-up cheap easy-entry pipe carts with bicycle tires.

A wreck like that can ruin a horse for driving, permanently. Not necessarily because of the trauma of dragging the bent, broken cart behind him at a full gallop down the road - although I have to say that experience doesn't help the horse much. No, the horse is ruined because the person usually puts the horse away after such a thorough wreck. It's the putting the horse away that drives home the trauma and cements it permanently in his psyche. After a wreck, you MUST MUST MUST hitch and drive again, immediately, if the horse is fit to walk. Even if he is bleeding. Even if you are bleeding. Can you see where it would be better if the cart or harness didn't fold in the first place? A runaway doesn't have to be a wreck. But with cheap equipment, is usually is. And if you drive long enough, you will eventually have a runaway.

There is such a huge range in quality and safety in driving equipment. A $500 budget won't get you safe new equipment. It *can* get you safe used equipment, but only if you know what to look for and what to avoid.


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## olsonla (Dec 5, 2005)

I agree with everything that has been posted so far, esp Jennigrey! There is no substitute for haveing an old timer help you out and get you going.... Where about are you located at? try to find some local driving or draft horse clubs in your area. As for which is better I personally perfer Collar harness over brest type, but there are some new designs that look intresting. Check out 
http://www.bigblackhorse.com/equine/harness-and-accessories.html?cat=158

( ps. the grey mare used as a Model, is one of my Fillies i Raised!) 

The Collar Harness can also be use used for other things such as dragging loggs or such, So you can use your horse different ways ( good for the mind!) The down side, you have to make sure your Collar properly fits, or you will get a sore/blistered neck or shoulders- a tad to small is perfered over a smidge to big- Speaking from experiance! A Breast type harness is not designed to pull heavy loads. Also you can get Nylon, Beta or Leather- Leather is traditional but HEAVY! There are some nice Beta's that are nice enough for show, parades and work. Nylon is Cheaper, light & easy, but make sure it is lined on the rub points of the Harness. Are there any Amish close by to you? 

Good Luck!
Lori in West Central WI
www.cannonvalleypercheorns.com


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## Knesa (Apr 14, 2011)

Thank you guys for all the info. I live on the west coast so driving is almost exclusive to the show ring if it appears at all at least in my area. I am intrested in getting in to driving and wanted to estamate how much I would need to spend to get good driving gear. Unforchantly there are no amish in the area. No my horse dosen't drive. I was going to either have him trained or get another horse to drive. This is still all in the planning stage


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

I like a neck collar harness myself, because it is versatile. You can do anything with a well-fitted full-face neck collar. We pull cart, wagon, plow, logs, disc, mower, rake, mat harrow, spike harrow, spring tooth harrow, cultivator, sleigh, ground sled. We have long, steep hills. We give hay rides and go on an annual wagon train. We also attend a show once a year.

A breast collar harness, on the other hand, is only good for light duty harness work; namely, pulling a cart or a light buggy. You oughtn't drag anything on the ground using a breast collar harness. The line of draft on a breastcollar harness means that it is designed to be hitched to something at the horse's hocks or higher. No lower than the hocks.

A neck collar must be carefully fitted to the horse, with tolerances of an inch or two. Over the years I have accumulated FOUR SIZES of neck collar to choose from for each of my horses, to ensure the best fit at all times of the year. A too-large collar will slop around on the neck and wound the horse. Each collar costs between $75 and $200, new. Most of mine were purchased used at auctions for $25 to $80 each. This is just the collar, mind you. The rest of the harness is adjustable. They do make adjustable collars (with a 2" to 3" range in adjustability). Some people love them, I'm not fond of them for a few reasons.

A breast collar harness, on the other hand, while not quite a one-size-fits-all, is much more forgiving for the novice, and very adjustable. But remember that it is for light duty only; cart or very light buggy.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Depending on where you live, I might be able to point you at an individual, club or group to help you nail down your wants/needs and to help you put your plan into action when the time comes.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

I have a lot of experience long lining and ground driving horses from my years as an avid dressage rider. I also worked as an assistant trainer for a woman who does some driving with morgan horses, but I never went beyond working them in the arena. 
Would appreciate any and all help I can get with regard to fitting and selecting equipment for the donkey.
I do realize the added danger when a cart is attached and intend to go about the whole business in baby steps. 
This year the goal is to get him trained to ground drive and to pull small logs.

Thank you so much for your long response! It makes me smile to know you are concerned enough for everyone's safety to take the time to post that 

Wish you were closer!


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Having experience handling the lines is a good big step in the right direction. If you can ground-drive (long line), you are well on your way to driving. Maintaining contact with the horse's mouth while you are on foot is much more difficult than when you are riding in a fixed position behind the horse, in a cart. Being able to control the radius of a turn with outside contact on the bit is a crucial skill when driving a horse. Many riders-turned-drivers are surprised to discover how much they relied on their legs and bodies to communicate with the horse. Western riders that are accustomed to neck-reining can sometimes have a hard time learning or re-learning how to maintain contact with a horse's mouth when driving. 

As far as training the *horse*... I believe that the three trickiest parts of training a horse to drive are:
1.) preventing him from trying to turn around and face you while he is being driven from behind
2.) getting the horse to be okay being "trapped" between the shafts (some are a little claustrophobic about this, especially if they have been trained to be particularly sensitive to leg cues) and desensitizing him to the leather traces touching his gaskins
3.) getting the horse used to the idea that SOMETHING IS FOLLOWING HIM... particularly when you are dragging something across soft footing like sand or grass and then transition to gravel

"Whoa" is by far the most important thing to teach a driving horse. "Whoa" should mean full and complete stop. Do not ask for whoa without enforcing it completely. "Whoa" becomes absolutely sacred when you are driving. Teaching the horse to stand quietly for extended periods of time is critical as well. He must stand still with all four feet on the ground so you can enter or exit the cart. He must not step off until you ask for it. After you have gotten in or out of the cart, have him stand there for a while before you ask him to go. I can't tell you how many people I see who try to scramble onto the cart while the horse stands for a split second. The moment their butt is in the cart, the horse starts off and the driver allows it. Do a lot of standing around in the cart.

Also, for anyone who is contemplating a 4-wheeled vehicle; a cart is the safest vehicle you can hitch to. A 4-wheeled vehicle is surprisingly easy to tip or jack-knife. Even a fully cut-under vehicle can tip fairly easily. If you are a novice, please start with a cart.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

If you want your donkey to pull logs, get him a neck collar. Get one with a latch-top. You could get him a full-face buggy collar. I'll see if I can find some good instructions for measuring a horse for a collar. A donkey's neck is usually much narrower than a horse or pony's. You will want to get a donkey collar. Are you a member of any donkey groups online?


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

jennigrey said:


> If you want your donkey to pull logs, get him a neck collar. Get one with a latch-top. You could get him a full-face buggy collar. I'll see if I can find some good instructions for measuring a horse for a collar. A donkey's neck is usually much narrower than a horse or pony's. You will want to get a donkey collar. Are you a member of any donkey groups online?


Not a member of an donkey groups online or IRL. 
He is comfortable with me walking directly behind him and doesn't offer to kick or act up when he feels me cueing from behind with a whip or even just my hand on his croup.
He's a young donkey, 4 years old or so, but most of the time he's pretty agreeable. Good with farrier for trimming every 5 weeks, good with vet for teeth floating and vaccines. Even stands quietly for me to body clip him each spring 
I have started working him in the round pen doing some free lunging just to get him started on the idea of working a little. Will transition to working him on a lunge line and then on long lines in a month or so. We're in no hurry. Just would like him to have a job. My DH adores him, but we are both too big to ride the donkey; thinking driving him would be just right.

Looking forward to any info you send my way about how to size a collar for him. He's done growing I think, so now would be a good time to invest in a nice collar. He's a smallish standard. Need to remeasure his height and get back to you.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Pioneer, Dalton, Ohio, makes a forecart that is solid, comfortable and has many options. Amish company. You can get it with brakes, fenders, bench seat, setup for a single horse but convertible to a two horse with tongue. 

Get a nylon or bio-plastic harness. It&#8217;ll last a long time with little care and is lighter, so you can carry it and throw it onto your horse with ease. I don&#8217;t have a preference on breast harness or collar harness. Breast is lighter and probably cheaper.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

The Pioneer forecart is pretty heavy for pleasure driving one saddle horse. Safe, solid and multipurpose, but heavy. If a person lived in a hilly area, it'd be a pretty good pull for one saddle horse. Probably better sized for a single draft horse or a team of saddle horses. A single draft could handle a Pioneer forecart with a breastcollar harness but if a person were to invest in a forecart, they might as well get the neck collar harness as well so the forecart could be used as it was designed - for work. A team of light horses would require neck collars to carry the weight of the tongue properly.

I'd love to have a Pioneer forecart. They offer a lot of neat options. Not suited for farmergirl's donkey, but depending on what size of horse Knesa has in mind, it could work for her. Not the smoothest ride I've ever had, but safe, low center of gravity, easy on/off.


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## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

There are pros and cons to using leather or various synthetic materials to make harness.

Nylon and bio straps are definitely lighter and stronger than leather. If the harness maker knows his job and uses good hardware, the resulting nylon or bio harness is usually stronger than a similarly-built leather harness.

If you get a harness with quality hardware (stainless or brass - something that doesn't rust), a nylon or bio harness will be very long-lived and easy to care for.

Nylon and bio harness are often cheaper than leather harness as well. 

Still, I only have leather harness in my barn. If I had a carriage business or "did" weddings with my horses, the kind of job where the horses were in front of the public eye every day and only had light-duty work to perform (pulling a carriage on paved streets) I would probably invest in a team's worth of nice biothane harness. They are so easy to clean and stay looking nice forever with just a little consideration given to storage and abrasion. 

But for everyday use, I prefer leather. It's true that leather does require care and it will give out eventually. You have the clean and condition the dang stuff and check the wear points frequently. But it conforms to the horse in a way that the synthetics can never do. Good leather is kinder to the horse's hide than the synthetics. You can certainly shave the hair off a horse with an illl-fitted leather harness, but I have seen more of that kind of thing with nylon and bio harness than with leather, because of leather's ability to curve and conform on multiple planes at once.

I really dislike those bare nylon webbing harnesses. Dirt, sweat and horse grime get into the grain of the webbing and it's a pain to clean off. They don't weigh anything so they don't lay down onto the horse nicely. You have to tug and slide everything into place with bare nylon, whereas something with more "body" (leather or one of the bio-plastics) will plop down into place nicely. The texture of the webbing is more likely to abrade the horse so it is very unforgiving of maladjustment. But if you get a nylon harness that is lined in some fashion, it makes the harness a little kinder.

I wouldn't steer a novice away from a bioplastic harness. Shiny biothane or matte "granite" betathane, either one, can make a nice dependable harness. Like I said, I do prefer leather myself for a few reasons, but a well-made bioplastic harness is just fine. 

I have a couple sets of "granite"/betathane driving lines that I just love. They have a good weight and body to them. They transmit every twitch and ripple just as well as leather does, but they clean up really easily. I can soak em in a bucket of soapy water overnight and just slide em through a rag the next morning to get the muck off. Hose them down and they're ready to go. Just as much "grip" when they are wet as when they are dry. Can't say that about leather! 

Of course, the "grip" of the betathane is one of the reasons I think it doesn't make as nice a harness as leather. I don't want it to grab the hair, I want it to allow the hide to slide smoothly underneath it. I've seen beta traces make a pretty good rub mark on gaskins. This was in working conditions, however and not pleasure driving conditions.


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