# She made her bed she can lay in it



## AZHomesteader (Sep 20, 2012)

Well i got a lawyer, got the divorce in the process, because of this law she is agreeing to my terms.

Arizona Revised Statutes, ARS 13-1408 makes it a Class 3 misdemeanor to commit adultery.

She is agreeing to what she took is all she wants now, 50/50 joint custody and no support from either side. She does not want that law brought in to the divorce. Because dude can be charged with her hehe. 

If she didn't agree the lawyer can really drag them thru the mud and they both would have a charge on there records.

My life is getting so much better now, made a couple of new friends, getting a lot done on my 36 acre homestead and have my son more then half the time every month.


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

Maybe she's just as ready to move on as you are and has taken the path of least resistance. Either way, good luck and healing to you


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Lucky you! I should have filed for divorce in AZ!!


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## cindilu (Jan 27, 2008)

Yeah, word to the wise, don't go out on your spouse in AZ, they can hunt you down and make you pay dearly for that move. Actually it would be nice if that was the law in all the states, maybe then I would have actually come out ahead. Oh well.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

in IL you can sue the person who slept with your spouse... They can't be charged, but they can be sued for Alienation of Affection..


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

What about proof? What kind do you have to have to make an adultery charge stick?


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## AZHomesteader (Sep 20, 2012)

rkintn said:


> What about proof? What kind do you have to have to make an adultery charge stick?


emails from him and her, she forgot about removing it from our computer before she moved out. She never changed her password.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

simi-steading said:


> in IL you can sue the person who slept with your spouse... They can't be charged, but they can be sued for Alienation of Affection..


What if they don't know the other party is married? And even if they did know, it is the married person's responsibility.


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## AZHomesteader (Sep 20, 2012)

Dutchie said:


> What if they don't know the other party is married? And even if they did know, it is the married person's responsibility.


here is the what Arizona law states:

13-1408. Adultery; classification; punishment; limitation on prosecution

A. A married person who has sexual intercourse with another than his or her spouse, and an unmarried person who has sexual intercourse with a married person not his or her spouse, commits adultery and is guilty of a class 3 misdemeanor. When the act is committed between parties only one of whom is married, both shall be punished.

B. No prosecution for adultery shall be commenced except upon complaint of the husband or wife.


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

AZHomesteader said:


> emails from him and her, she forgot about removing it from our computer before she moved out. She never changed her password.



Sounds iffy to me. I would think a much more solid proof would be required than emails that could easily be faked. My curiousity has gotten the better of me and I'm off to google it


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## AZHomesteader (Sep 20, 2012)

rkintn said:


> Sounds iffy to me. I would think a much more solid proof would be required than emails that could easily be faked. My curiousity has gotten the better of me and I'm off to google it


My attorney already said it will stand in court if i so want to pursue it. As long as she doesnt try to pull any punches i wont push it. I just want her out of my life, only want to deal with her over my son nothing more. plus there is a couple of people that his seen his car there over night that will make a statement as well, small town and people don't agree with what she is doing.


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

I am totally not taking up for her. The law part just caught my eye and peaked my curiousity. I found what I was looking for via google. Again, the best of luck to you as you move forward


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

hope both find peace and happiness.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

What if the man dosent know that she is married??


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

he did say it was a small town Bill. probably everyone knows everyone else's business there. although I lived in a little hole in the wall and you wouldn't believe what was going on and I knew nothing about it. ~Georgia.


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

Looks like she is telling her story also


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

FarmboyBill said:


> What if the man dosent know that she is married??


I was moving into a small house in a small town (350 people) in Missouri and was having a horrible time wrestling a chest of drawers up a step. A fellow walking by stopped and helped me get it up the steps and then asked me out!

I thanked him for his help and told him I was REALLY flattered, but that I didn't date.

Couple weeks later I'm in the town cafe and he walks past the door and I mention something to the waitress about the fellow helping me.

Watiress tells me that's the most work he's done in the last 15 years, and if it wasn't for his wife supporting him, he'd have to get an actual job.

Oops! What a jerk!

Mon


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

This I like, big time.


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

Having been in a situation with a cheating spouse, I know it sounds good but just because a law is on the books doesn't always mean it will be prosecuted. There are a lot of steps and money needed to even coming close to seeing a situation like this coming to fruition and even if it got to a penalty stage, it's a misdemeanour that carries a punishment of a fine and maybe up to 30 days in jail. Most judges will balk at setting that kind of precedent. Also, nearly every reference I could find stated that it was only allowable as a fault in a divorce proceeding if the couple had participated in a covenant marriage.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

The reason 'no fault' divorce came into existence in the first place was that back when finding fault was a requirement, parties were spending all their time and money trying to cough up the proof first of who was the responsible party, instead of getting on with the actual divorce. A lot of lawyers did well out of it.

Personally, I don't think assessing blame is the important thing. People make all kinds of mistakes, and I don't think the threat of a misdemeanor would deter too many unhappy people from straying if they were headed in that direction anyway.

Best to get on with your life, as you seem to be doing, AZHomesteader.


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

Isn't anything going to be so easy about it. It's hard to close your heart about the past life you've had.

Guess maybe you can? Just wasn't possible for me.
And when you think it's close to being done, something will change it.

Best of luck to you. Be fair in all things.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

in texas 20+ years ago they (husbands lawyer) came to the house and looked to see if someone else shoes where in the closet. never did figure that one out. But my husband got his divorce on adultery charges on me. When he was the one with the girlfriend for over a year. Sometimes the screwing you get ant worth the screwing you get. But since I was pregnant he had to wait the 8 months till after the baby was born for his divorce and by that time the wonderful girlfriend was long gone. Hate it when that happens.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

She's setting you up for big child support. Without the adultery charge she's looking clean and will want to bump up the CS every time you sell a tomato. Good luck with that; you are on the hook for some years now.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

There is no going back. What's done, is done, and you are a smart man for not "trying again, or let's do counseling, bla bla bla".

She has proven that she is not trustworthy.
This is not a mistake.
This is a calculated, well thought out deception.

Do what you have to do to protect yourself, and your child.
Whatever that may be....(within the law, of course)

Trust me when I tell you, there is no going back, working it out, trying again.
The mask of deception has fallen off and the TRUE 'her' showed itself.....you have seen what she is capable of; the deception you see (adultery) is ONLY the tip of the iceberg.
Protect yourself, and your child.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

laura zone 5 said:


> there is no going back. What's done, is done, and you are a smart man for not "trying again, or let's do counseling, bla bla bla".
> 
> She has proven that she is not trustworthy.
> This is not a mistake.
> ...


 
amen!!!


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

You girls are sure hard on the woman. Many men cheat (public figures, too) and their wives let them come back. Never understood why a woman cheats once and is sent to Coventry while men get away with public infidelity, Clintonian style.

Of course I'd not put up with it either. I don't cheat and I won't put up with a cheat. I'd sure like to here her side of the story----what she was missing in the marriage that made her vulnerable to a paramour.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

It seems to me that those who cheat are missing something in themselves.


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## Echoesechos (Jan 22, 2010)

Oxankle said:


> You girls are sure hard on the woman. Many men cheat (public figures, too) and their wives let them come back. Never understood why a woman cheats once and is sent to Coventry while men get away with public infidelity, Clintonian style.
> 
> Of course I'd not put up with it either. I don't cheat and I won't put up with a cheat. I'd sure like to here her side of the story----what she was missing in the marriage that made her vulnerable to a paramour.


Really? Even if she thinks she's missing something she still made the choice to cheat. There are many other options open why choose that one? See I don't think that is the honest or honorable way to find "yourself". 

I hold men and women to the same standard. I wish him well and to a bright future.


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## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

Cheating is a deal breaker, no matter the circumstances. There is a double standard and it is alive and well, unfortunately. Too many times I've seen men and women in an unhappy marriage. Instead of having the guts to tell them or leave, they make the transition to having an affair and then leaving for that person...pretty despicable.


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

Lesley again...borrowing John's IPad....
I am a big fan of "whose fault is it" divorce ....too many innocent spouses become steeped in poverty and alienated from their children when a woman gets a divorce..totally unfair.Why should a man lose his home, his children and his pension because the courts grant his wife an easy divorce ?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Oxankle said:


> You girls are sure hard on the woman. Many men cheat (public figures, too) and their wives let them come back. Never understood why a woman cheats once and is sent to Coventry while men get away with public infidelity, Clintonian style.
> 
> Of course I'd not put up with it either. I don't cheat and I won't put up with a cheat. I'd sure like to here her side of the story----what she was missing in the marriage that made her vulnerable to a paramour.


Hard on cheaters.
Male or Female.
My advice to AZ was based upon personal experience....with a cheater.


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## AZHomesteader (Sep 20, 2012)

Laura Zone 5 said:


> There is no going back. What's done, is done, and you are a smart man for not "trying again, or let's do counseling, bla bla bla".
> 
> She has proven that she is not trustworthy.
> This is not a mistake.
> ...


I am protecting my son and me. I may try for full custody, he is not happy living away from me. I don't know if i can get full custody but right now she is all for 50/50 joint custody.

Sure it hurt and stung like bee's when i first found out. I am over the feelings i had for her. I do speak kindly and respectful to her because of my son, even tho i want to say what a cheap and low down thing to do.

I never once in my life ever cheated on her, i still have no idea why she decided it was over, she had this dude all lined up before she moved out.

According to my lawyer i should be divorced before xmas. She better hope it works out with her and dude because she is not coming back here.


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## dizzy (Jun 25, 2013)

AZ, I've known a few women that have done this to their hubbies. And it was a shocker each and every time to everyone that knew the woman. It was really a bolt out of the blue. For some, they were left money and that made it easy for them to leave.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

OK, against my better judgment, I'm going to weigh in on this subject, from the perspective of someone who has been unfaithful to past partners. Yeah, I've been a cheater.

I see there's a tendency here to villify cheaters, to portray them as especially evil and inherently flawed, to predict that they will never, ever remain faithful and any subsequent relationships into which they enter are doomed. They're just no good! And I can understand why someone who's been burned would take that stance -- as the current country song says, "Thinking 'bout it that way feels good, don't it?" But it isn't true. 

A cheater is someone who has unmet needs in their marriage, and sees an opportunity to have their needs elsewhere, and decides to pursue it. That's the long and short of it.

In addition to the out-and-out cheaters, there's another group I call Faithful By Default. These are people who probably _would_ be cheaters -- who are unfulfilled in their marriages -- but who never get the chance. Maybe they live in a small town full of nosy people, or their encounters with eligible partners are somewhat circumscribed, or they're simply not attractive enough to garner much attention from the opposite sex. 

Incidentally, whenever I hear of someone ditching a decades-long marriage to run off with someone totally inappropriate -- the pool boy, or a woman half his age -- I suspect a case of FBD. Just once, _someone_ gave them a chance, and they were off and running with it!

There is another group, too, and these engage in what I call Cheating Light. These are the guys surfing porn after their wives fall asleep and the women surreptitiously reading the "Fifty Shades" books or Harlequin romances while their husbands are at work. They're finding ways to get their needs met outside of the marriage, just like conventional cheaters, but society generally gives them a pass as long as they don't take it to Real Life. (I've noticed that it's generally the guys viewing porn whose wives are reading "Fifty Shades." If the two could put aside their bitterness and resentment for awhile, they might have a jolly good time, but it seldom seems to work that way, does it?)

Finally, some advice for the partnered who want to stay that way: If your spouse has a problem (especially if it's a problem that involves you -- more on that in a moment) _then you have a problem, too_. Even if it doesn't seem like it. If your wife's boss is a knob, and she comes home from work every night with a long list of injustices she's been forced to endure that day, and your eyes glaze over during her recitation (or, worse yet, begin to roll), and your expression conveys boredom and distaste ... well, stop and think for a moment. What d'ya think is gonna happen when she runs into an attractive guy at the water cooler who is muttering that the boss is a jerk? Yeah, next thing you know, they'll be acting out the Toby Keith song "Drinks After Work."

And now you've got a problem. Actually, you had a problem all along; you just failed to see it. 

So if you _know_ your spouse is unhappy about something -- if your wife complains that you never take her anywhere, or your husband is unsatisfied with the frequency or enthusiasm of your lovemaking -- and you do nothing to address the issue ... if you stonewall the problem ... you're opening yourself to the possibility that your spouse may find a unilateral solution ... _one that you might not like_. Forewarned is forearmed!


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

And then there a a good many that didn't lose the person they married so much as the person they THOUGHT they married. Some times we are decieved by the other party, sometimes by ourselves and what we think we see in the other party and it just isn't there.


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## handymama (Aug 22, 2014)

whiterock said:


> And then there a a good many that didn't lose the person they married so much as the person they THOUGHT they married. Some times we are decieved by the other party, sometimes by ourselves and what we think we see in the other party and it just isn't there.


Wish I could like that about a zillion times


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

Deleted


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

starjj said:


> I do not condone cheating. I will say there are two sides to any story.
> *Your wife or partner has posted her side of the truth over in the profiles (why there I don't know).
> She has a lot to say about you also does not mention you are a cheater.* Somewhere in the middle
> there is the truth you can't just accept that AZ is totally blameless. Something was lacking,
> ...


**************************
If so, then I'm rather bewildered at your knowledge of the subject, as I've
tried to keep up and have not seen him mention that his 'soon-to-be-x' was 
either a member here or even stated what her user name might have been. 
Therefore, how is it that you have this 'inside info'? Or did he confide to you 
in a P.M.? Inquiring minds would like to.....and all that.:kiss:

At the very least, can you point someone to the correct profile?

There's just too many to go thru, one-by-one....

(I've got entirely too much time on my hands....)


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## doingitmyself (Jul 30, 2013)

Willow, I have to applaud your honesty, character, and frankness. You brought up many views as there always are. Especially concerning things of the nature of which we are posting. I'm glad you chose to post against your better judgment, your post was quite refreshingly honest. Thank you! :thumb:


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## tambo (Mar 28, 2003)

starjj said:


> I do not condone cheating. I will say there are two sides to any story. Your wife or partner has posted her side of the truth over in the profiles (why there I don't know). She has a lot to say about you also does not mention you are a cheater. Somewhere in the middle there is the truth you can't just accept that AZ is totally blameless. Something was lacking, however that is between the two of them. Somehow I find it sad that both parties have to air their dirty laundry on a public forum. It seems to be I don't want them but I want no one else to want them either. I was just discussing this with a coworker. Her daughter is dating (living with) a man with an ex and children by the ex. The ex has stolen her daughters phone and just this week her daughters car was stolen from the boyfriend's house. I told her her daughter should run not walk from that relationship.


I may be wrong but I think you have AZH mixed up with someone else.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

I'm with CK. I haven't heard him mention her being a member. if she is she has a earful by this time. I've looked in profile and see nothing but only looked back so far. what is the name she is posting under Star? ~Georgia.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

I see no reason whatsoever to begin a new relationship until the other one is over, no matter what is going on.

If the unhappy partner(s) has tried all means possible to reconcile their differences to no avail, then move on but only after both parties know the scoop.

I would not be able to be in a relationship with one who believed it was ok to cheat.


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## hawgsquatch (May 11, 2014)

willow_girl said:


> OK, against my better judgment, I'm going to weigh in on this subject, from the perspective of someone who has been unfaithful to past partners. Yeah, I've been a cheater.
> 
> I see there's a tendency here to villify cheaters, to portray them as especially evil and inherently flawed, to predict that they will never, ever remain faithful and any subsequent relationships into which they enter are doomed. They're just no good! And I can understand why someone who's been burned would take that stance -- as the current country song says, "Thinking 'bout it that way feels good, don't it?" But it isn't true.
> 
> ...


YUP! You're pretty much awesome as far as I am concerned.:thumb:

If I could do it again I would do it again differently that is a definite.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

What would you do differently hawsquash?


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

arcticow said:


> Lesley again...borrowing John's IPad....
> I am a big fan of "whose fault is it" divorce ....too many innocent spouses become steeped in poverty and alienated from their children when a woman gets a divorce..totally unfair.Why should a man lose his home, his children and his pension because the courts grant his wife an easy divorce ?


 Except thatâs not how it actually works. Having sat for countless days in domestic courtrooms watching people fight over their children, their possessions and the rest, I think adding âfaultâ to the mix is a big step backward. You really believe that a judge, who hears dozens of cases a day, is in the best position to wade through a coupleâs assertions about who was at fault and make an informed decision about that? I donât. Divorce is hard enough without adding such a bitter pill to the mix.

I can think of no benefit to establishing fault in divorce proceedings. Think itâs going to make the parents more amenable to jointly parenting their children as they move forward? Think it will help them to cooperate in making reasoned, essential joint decisions with respect to their assets and liabilities? Probably not.

Letâs be clear: NO ONE wins in a divorce. Not the husband, not the wife, not the kids. Where once there was a single household, there will now be two. Doesnât take a math whiz to figure out itâs going to cost everyone a lot more, leaving everyone with less. The children will be disrupted, and the more the parents fight over or through them, the worse this is -- especially on the kids.

That said, if a marriage has become toxic, then whatever the monetary or emotional expense, itâs best for people to make a clean break and move on with their lives. While I never condone cheating, I agree with Willow that the end of a relationship is seldom the complete fault of one side or the other. Many of the contributing factors are frequently out of view, ultimately culminating in the predicate event for the divorce, such as a âcheat.â But how much court time do you think judges should devote to hearing all that stuff? _âHe didnât touch me for more than two years because he said I got fat! Of COURSE I cheated on him!â_ I just donât think this is the best use of expensive courtroom time, especially as impacted as the courts already are.

Divorce today in most states is very formulized, and for good reason. The court takes into account how many years a couple has been together, the relative assets/liabilities of each, their earning capacities, the needs of the children. They plug those numbers into computer programs that tell them how much child and/or spousal support to award and for how long. They make property divisions and figure out custody schedules with the assistance of mediators. Proving a parent is âunfitâ basically requires intervention from Child Protective Services (CPS). In general, the proceedings are much more fair and even with these methods. The tired old meme that a judge is gunning for one side or the other is dreadfully out-of-date and fundamentally inaccurate. We often quipped that when EVERYONE left the courtroom grumpy, then the disposition was probably fair. Of course, if your only courtroom experience is what you hear from your divorced friends, thatâs not how theyâre likely to tell the tale.

Even with formulas in place, Iâve seen horrible miscarriages of justice. Fortunately, they are rare. When they happened, it was usually because the couple lived in a way that was outside the norm and the laws and/or formulas didnât apply to or favor their situation. Hereâs one I remember very well: A woman married a man who had inherited his wealth. They had several children together, four, if I recall. The man wanted out. Because the man was independently wealthy, he didnât work. In California, as in most states, I believe, inherited wealth always remains the sole property of the person who inherits, unless the inheritor co-mingles their assets with their spouse. This fellow was careful to not do that. When the couple divorced, the court had NO ability to award child and/or spousal support to the wife. Because the man didnât work, had no âincome,â his wealth was his alone, and the wife had no entitlement to it. Period. She was made to leave the family home and raise their children with zero support. For the court to do anything else would have been illegal. Fair? Of course not. But adding âfaultâ to the mix wouldnât have made a whit of difference, except cost her a lot more to bring her case.

If you really want to make a difference, get people to understand the gravity of getting married before they actually do it. Iâve always thought that anyone thinking of getting hitched should be made to sit in a domestic courtroom to watch the proceedings for a week. Itâs an eye opener, for sure.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Kinda feel strange about sharing this but what the neck. I was chested on by a man that I thought was my last boyfriend. We dated for around 5 months before he talked me into moving in. Long story shortened while I was deployed he cheated, had a feeling something was going on as he was not communicating much. Got back and he admitted it, felt pretty much crapped on especially after he told me that it was so hard on him having to be alone. Well I picked up my crutches called a couple of friends and was gone in an hour. Come to find out it was a couple of women and started within a month of my shipping out.

I learned a very valuable lesson be very careful of who you depend on to be there when you need them.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

I'm sorry that happened to you, no really. No, really. (Gentle tease.) The old saying, marry in haste, repent at leisure...

Although too often, you can't truly know a person and it's a crap shoot no matter what. I know super-smart people who have been taken in by super-devious poseurs, even when spending long periods of time dating and thinking they had gotten to know them well. In a couple of cases, the mistake was very much to their financial detriment. 

Sadly, if someone wants to deceive you, they probably can and will.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Yeah he was good, he really thought he could explain it away and we could just continue on, hehe no really he did. We were not married, timing was wrong. Will I ever marry don't plan on it but life can be interesting.


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## tambo (Mar 28, 2003)

No cheater man or woman will ever get compassion from me. There is no explanation to justify cheating. And as I said before it doesn't take much talent or smarts or whatever you would call it to deceive someone who loves and trust you.

If you aren't happy tell them straight up what the problem is. Don't hint around and hope they get it. Anything less is unfair. Bringing someone else in the picture before the divorce is final is a cowards way out.


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

You put to words my thoughts tambo.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

My post is not as an advocate of cheating. It's not ok, not ever. And I agree, the honorable thing is to end one relationship before embarking on another. My post, however, speaks to the usefulness of establishing "fault" as a basis for a divorce. That, I think, causes more harm than good.


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## tambo (Mar 28, 2003)

roadless said:


> You put to words my thoughts tambo.


I've been there too roadless. The end of the relationship was bad enough but the cheating part changed me forever. No matter how hard I tried not to
let it. Now I should buy her a coke or something because she did me a favor!! I couldn't see it then.


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2014)

Raeven said:


> Except thatâs not how it actually works. Having sat for countless days in domestic courtrooms watching people fight over their children, their possessions and the rest, I think adding âfaultâ to the mix is a big step backward. You really believe that a judge, who hears dozens of cases a day, is in the best position to wade through a coupleâs assertions about who was at fault and make an informed decision about that? I donât. Divorce is hard enough without adding such a bitter pill to the mix.
> 
> I can think of no benefit to establishing fault in divorce proceedings. Think itâs going to make the parents more amenable to jointly parenting their children as they move forward? Think it will help them to cooperate in making reasoned, essential joint decisions with respect to their assets and liabilities? Probably not.
> 
> ...


and what do you say about the THOUSANDS of men whose wife cheated on them with another man ( or woman), filed for divorce, got the house and custody of the children and 75% of his pension...and as the final straw, move the boyfriend into the house and happily collect child support from the poor SOB ....
or what about a guy married for 25 years whose wife wants all of a sudden to run naked in the woods with other middle-aged women and "drum" vs be a wife and mother...how can she afford to flit through the woods with her new buddies? Because the court has ordered her now ex to pay alimony for the rest of her life...in this case, that's $1500/month ..she has the cars, half the bank account and the alimony...he now has bills...and more bills.

this is equitable?


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

Yep, cheating cuts deep tambo.


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

The posting is under mod review


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

What did I miss?


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## tambo (Mar 28, 2003)

starjj said:


> The posting is under mod review


starjj you are thinking of jandersen.


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## Raeven (Oct 11, 2011)

bostonlesley said:


> and what do you say about the THOUSANDS of men whose wife cheated on them with another man ( or woman), filed for divorce, got the house and custody of the children and 75% of his pension...and as the final straw, move the boyfriend into the house and happily collect child support from the poor SOB ....
> or what about a guy married for 25 years whose wife wants all of a sudden to run naked in the woods with other middle-aged women and "drum" vs be a wife and mother...how can she afford to flit through the woods with her new buddies? Because the court has ordered her now ex to pay alimony for the rest of her life...in this case, that's $1500/month ..she has the cars, half the bank account and the alimony...he now has bills...and more bills.
> 
> this is equitable?


I did not say that every outcome was equitable. My point was, nothing changes by a requirement to establish "fault." Establishing "fault" as a basis for the divorce only adds more layers of pain and complication to an already painful and complicated process. And in the end, it doesn't matter. Does establishing fault in any way enhance the chances for a reconciliation? I don't think so. Does it add more bitterness and expense to the process? You bet. Can people game the "fault" outcome? Just give them a chance.

Many, many ugly things happen between couples. That's why they divorce in the first place. I would not be in a position to assess the equity of the outcome of any of those cases without having very specific and intimate knowledge of each and every one of them. Maybe you can, but I can't. 

I do know this: A lot of perfectly explainable and fair things happen in courtrooms that don't necessarily appear that way to the casual observer. Once people have the TOTAL facts of a case, they often judge less harshly.


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

tambo said:


> starjj you are thinking of jandersen.


I don't think so but of course I could be wrong if so I apologize

I went back and see that Tambo is correct. Hard to keep the fighters names correct apparently. I do apologize for the confusion and will blame it on old age and failing eye sight


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## Classof66 (Jul 9, 2011)

Tambo, Thank you for your post. BYDT Not sure I am ready to buy her a Coke yet, but hardy-har-har. I am definitely over him. He is HER problem now.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I see no reason whatsoever to begin a new relationship until the other one is over, no matter what is going on.
> 
> If the unhappy partner(s) has tried all means possible to reconcile their differences to no avail, then move on but only after both parties know the scoop.


Yeah, well, in a perfect world, we'd all brush and floss after every meal, too, right? 

Cheating isn't always the worst possible outcome to an unsatisfying marriage.

I'm thinking of a couple I know, a hard-working professional dad with a SAH wife and a couple of kids. Wife has never really worked outside the home. She loves being a homemaker but lost all interest in sex after the kids were born. Her husband isn't happy with the prospect of hanging up his spurs at age 35.

Now, according to your rationale, the decent thing for them to do would be to split up, right? The big house in a new plan probably would have to be sold. Wife and kids would go live in a duplex in a run-down neighborhood; she'd put the kids in daycare and get a crappy burger-flipper job. Let's say the husband eventually remarries, has a new batch of kiddos with Wife #2, and sorta loses interest in his kids from Marriage #1. (Because you know this_ happens all the time_.) Oh, he still sees them every other weekend and for two weeks in the summer, I guess. But they grow up without Dad in the home, and with Mom a stressed-out maniac, working to try to support herself on minimum wage while probably going back to school to obtain some job skills. 

Or the husband and wife could come to some sort of civilized agreement that would allow the husband to get his needs met while preserving the wife's dignity. (_What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, but don't you dare hit on any of my friends!_) The kids get to stay in the nice house and keep going to the good school, with Mom ferrying them around to soccer matches and ballet classes, and Dad at the dinner table every night. _Tell me, do you really think this is the worst possible outcome?_


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## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

_Or the husband and wife could come to some sort of civilized agreement that would allow the husband to get his needs met while preserving the wife's dignity. (What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, but don't you dare hit on any of my friends!) The kids get to stay in the nice house and keep going to the good school, with Mom ferrying them around to soccer matches and ballet classes, and Dad at the dinner table every night. Tell me, do you really think this is the worst possible outcome?

People live all kinds of ways that would not work for me, and they have every right to do so.
My dignity comes from living my life with the morals and values from within._


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

In my opinion, as long as there is fault based divorce, there are also people that manipulate the system for their advantage and quite often the children paid dearly.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

WG I see your point.

Maybe find out 'why' the sex stopped?
Is it physiological? Then lets get checked out at a doctors office.
If the marriage is healthy in the first place, both husband and wife will want to resolve this component of the marriage.

Is it psychological? Is there trauma from the past that needs addressed and worked out? Then lets get to a doc. 
Both husband and wife will want to do whatever it takes to help the marriage thrive.

Is it the man/woman's (whoever stops intimacy) way of showing there is a deep problem in the marriage? 
Then let's get to a counselor to iron out the REAL problems; because withdrawing intimacy is a symptom of a deeper marital issue.

There is MORE to marriage than getting laid.
There is a sense of commitment to one another, always looking out for what is best for each other. If there's a problem, then the two should be working together to resolve it....getting to the root of the problem, and coming to a resolution! 

That's just silly me though....:thumb:


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

willow_girl said:


> Cheating isn't always the worst possible outcome to an unsatisfying marriage.


No but I don't think its a very good one.



willow_girl said:


> I'm thinking of a couple I know, a hard-working professional dad with a SAH wife and a couple of kids. Wife has never really worked outside the home. She loves being a homemaker but lost all interest in sex after the kids were born.


So what? 



willow_girl said:


> Her husband isn't happy with the prospect of hanging up his spurs at age 35.


And why should he be? SHE hasn't lost interest in what he is providing has she? 
SHE should quit cheating not him start !



willow_girl said:


> Now, according to your rationale, the decent thing for them to do would be to split up, right? The big house in a new plan probably would have to be sold. Wife and kids would go live in a duplex in a run-down neighborhood; she'd put the kids in daycare and get a crappy burger-flipper job. Let's say the husband eventually remarries, has a new batch of kiddos with Wife #2, and sorta loses interest in his kids from Marriage #1. (Because you know this_ happens all the time_.) Oh, he still sees them every other weekend and for two weeks in the summer, I guess. But they grow up without Dad in the home, and with Mom a stressed-out maniac, working to try to support herself on minimum wage while probably going back to school to obtain some job skills.


What you are saying is she will suffer for her actions ( or lack of). Seems reasonable to me. The kids will suffer too because SHE doesn't care enough to keep up her end of the bargain. MEANWHILE the man is expected to suffer and pay BECAUSE SHE DECIDES ITS SO. 
What a Witch



willow_girl said:


> Or the husband and wife could come to some sort of civilized agreement that would allow the husband to get his needs met while preserving the wife's dignity. (_What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, but don't you dare hit on any of my friends!_) The kids get to stay in the nice house and keep going to the good school, with Mom ferrying them around to soccer matches and ballet classes, and Dad at the dinner table every night. _Tell me, do you really think this is the worst possible outcome?_


 So the cheater (wife) gets everything she wants while making everyone around her suffer, the husband, the kids (yes the kids will know something's not right) and the girlfriend will all suffer because of her greed and cheating.

Im sorry but I don't see this as a very good outcome.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Let me be clear. The Father has a right for the kids to see what a great Dad he can be in a loving relationship. How he holds a woman and does thoughtful little romantic things that shows he appreciates her and how he romances a woman that appreciates being romanced into a fun loving bed.
The kids have a right to learn how its done. A right to see what a great guy their dad can be.
The wife has no right to live the lifestyle she wants on the husbands money.


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## suitcase_sally (Mar 20, 2006)

elkhound said:


> hope both find peace and happiness.


Sounds to me that they found a piece and happiness.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I really don't know much more about the above situation than what I posted, so I won't say any more other than the fact I certainly wish them well. They're both nice people. Terrible situation to be in! 

I've been in two marriages with sexual incompatibilities; in one case, I cheated to try to get my needs met without leaving my husband, as we were pretty happy in other ways. But in the end, I wasn't satisfied with the situation -- I wanted everything in one package (no pun intended!). Before we split up, my husband did offer me the option of an open marriage if I'd stay. I didn't have the heart to tell him that I'd kinda tried that already and it didn't work! In all fairness to him, I wasn't really meeting his needs, either, as he was into a particular fetish (BDSM) that I didn't mind in the beginning, but became increasingly uncomfortable with as time went on. We were just poorly matched! We both moved on to other partners to whom we were better suited.

The next time around -- having learned that cheating doesn't work, at least not for me -- I just flat-out left, after it became clear that my partner wasn't willing to do anything to address the problem. 

Switching gears a bit, I'll offer one more piece of advice I've gleaned from life. Ladies, if your husband views you as his sole source of gratification, he's likely to put a bit of effort into keeping you happy, in order to keep the goodies coming. 

However, if he's learned -- either before or since the marriage -- that he can obtain sufficient satisfaction elsewhere, he'll be a lot less motivated to win your favors, and you'll have a harder row to hoe as a result. 

It troubles me that so many young men today are getting deeply into porn. I understand the attraction, but fear the effect it will have on their future relationships. 

And wives should be careful not to turn their husbands down _too_ many times, lest they discover the joys to be had on the computer late at night when everyone else is sleeping ... !


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## hawgsquatch (May 11, 2014)

roadless said:


> What would you do differently hawsquash?


Pay attention


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2014)

In my world, which of course is not everyone's, adultery is a sin against the sanctity of marriage..it's never acceptable under any circumstances...


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Oxankle said:


> Of course I'd not put up with it either. I don't cheat and I won't put up with a cheat. I'd sure like to here her side of the story----what she was missing in the marriage that made her vulnerable to a paramour.


Yep. There are always three sides to a story. His, hers and the truth.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> No but I don't think its a very good one.
> 
> 
> So what?
> ...


Seriously? It is all her fault? What if the husband is a lousy lover? What if he is disinterested in her (or even abusive) during the day but expects her to warm right up at night? Of course, after SHE has done the child care, house keeping, meal prep, laundry, dishes etc from 6 am to 9 pm without any assistance from him and is now exhausted. What if he is sloppy on the personal hygiene? 

See? It isn't always the guy who gets the short end of the stick.


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## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

Dutchie is in my head AGAIN as she posted almost exactly what I was going to say!


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## tambo (Mar 28, 2003)

bostonlesley said:


> In my world, which of course is not everyone's, adultery is a sin against the sanctity of marriage..it's never acceptable under any circumstances...


This is how I feel about it too. And it's a sin to cheat with a married person. 

Married men hit on me. No single guys, heck IDK maybe they do and I just don't catch it. But the married men make it plain what they want. I understand how a person who's spouse with holds affection must feel. I really don't see how a spouse could do that for a long period of time and expect a spouse to stay faithful. 

But it takes 3 people to be in an affair. 2 that choose to be and 1 that doesn't have a choice. Cheating is sin and hurts a lot of people. I will never condone it.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2014)

Dutchie said:


> Seriously? It is all her fault? What if the husband is a lousy lover? What if he is disinterested in her (or even abusive) during the day but expects her to warm right up at night? Of course, after SHE has done the child care, house keeping, meal prep, laundry, dishes etc from 6 am to 9 pm without any assistance from him and is now exhausted. What if he is sloppy on the personal hygiene?
> 
> See? It isn't always the guy who gets the short end of the stick.


and yet...why should any of these things listed give a person a green light to adultery?????

1. Husband is a lousy lover? Speak up..tell him what you like, what you need..I've never met a real mind reader..

2. Disinterested in her during the day? Speak up..tell him what you want, what you need..

3. Expects her to warm up at night when she's exhausted, etc? Speak up..tell him what the problem is..

4. Sloppy on personal hygiene? Invite him into the shower...and tell him how scrubby clean and shiny teeth turn you on..

If you think that your spouse remains an insensitive jerk, despite all of the above, then head for marriage counseling..
If marriage counseling is a failure, file for divorce ..

Divorce, and either be happy by yourself, or start dating...

No problems were ever solved by adultery...just new ones created.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I'll add to BostonLesley's post that that guy you think is such a dud might look fine 'n' dandy to someone else!


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

bostonlesley said:


> and yet...why should any of these things listed give a person a green light to adultery?????
> 
> 1. Husband is a lousy lover? Speak up..tell him what you like, what you need..I've never met a real mind reader..
> 
> ...


I didn't post this as excuses for adultry. I did in response to poster who put the full responsibility on the woman.

I agree with you that communication is the key but I have come across many examples, as I am sure you have, where this doesn't work or exists.


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> I'll add to BostonLesley's post that that guy you think is such a dud might look fine 'n' dandy to someone else!


Are you suggesting she "keep him happy" even if it is a one way street? Even if he is not willing to make some changes?


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Dutchie said:


> Yep. There are always three sides to a story. His, hers and the truth.


This statement bugs me. It implies that no matter who says what, they are at least in part, lying.

If two people sitting in Kansas and are in an argument over which way to go to get to Texas, the one person insists that the correct direction is to head south and the other person insists that the correct direction is north, it doesn't seem quite right to say that they should both compromise and head either east or west. 

The "three sides" argument often goes just like that causing the consensus to be dragged even farther from actual truth simply because both parties "must" be lying.

It's just one of those things that pushes one of my buttons. Sorry.


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

Bellyman said:


> This statement bugs me. It implies that no matter who says what, they are at least in part, lying.
> 
> If two people sitting in Kansas and are in an argument over which way to go to get to Texas, the one person insists that the correct direction is to head south and the other person insists that the correct direction is north, it doesn't seem quite right to say that they should both compromise and head either east or west.
> 
> ...


I don't think it implies that both sides are lying. I think it says that each side has their own perceptions about why the marriage failed but that the real reasons are usually a combination of the two sides.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

In my case the divore was her fault, period, end of story. We had too much in common, both liked women.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Are you suggesting she "keep him happy" even if it is a one way street? Even if he is not willing to make some changes?


I was thinking more along the lines that perhaps she should throw him back and let him be some other woman's hero. (I will be eternally grateful that Numb's former girlfriend broke up with him!)

My viewpoint probably has a lot to do with my age. I'm closing in fast on 50. By this age, I think people are pretty much who they're going to be. Maybe a man "has potential" at 25, perhaps even at 35, but by 50 ... well, unless he's on a quest for self-improvement, he's probably already living the way he wants to live. (The same applies to women as well.) 

If it's a minor makeover ... if you can't stand his cologne or something, by all means, speak up. But if someone needs a major personality renovation to suit ya, maybe you're in the wrong relationship. 

Just sayin'!


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

whiterock said:


> In my case the divore was her fault, period, end of story. We had too much in common, both liked women.


LOL!! .... ouch...


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

cindilu said:


> Yeah, word to the wise, don't go out on your spouse in AZ, they can hunt you down and make you pay dearly for that move. Actually it would be nice if that was the law in all the states, maybe then I would have actually come out ahead. Oh well.


So, what happens if BOTH partners were unfaithful?


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

whiterock said:


> In my case the divore was her fault, period, end of story. We had too much in common, both liked women.


Are you sure about it being her fault?


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> I was thinking more along the lines that perhaps she should throw him back and let him be some other woman's hero. (I will be eternally grateful that Numb's former girlfriend broke up with him!)
> 
> My viewpoint probably has a lot to do with my age. I'm closing in fast on 50. By this age, I think people are pretty much who they're going to be. Maybe a man "has potential" at 25, perhaps even at 35, but by 50 ... well, unless he's on a quest for self-improvement, he's probably already living the way he wants to live. (The same applies to women as well.)
> 
> ...


Ok that is what I was hoping you meant. Phew. For a moment I thought you had gone changin' on me


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I have seen this happen IRL, BTW. When my second husband and I split up, I had put in an offer on a house and was waiting to move as soon as I closed on it. One day he came home all hot and bothered, insisting I had to get out IMMEDIATELY, as he'd found a girl at work whom he wanted to date, but she wouldn't have anything to do with him as long I was still living under the same roof. 

They're married now, and have been for more than 10 years. 

My third husband also remarried within a year of our breakup -- again, well before I did. 

And more power to 'em! The fact that they didn't suit me any longer doesn't mean they weren't perfect for some other girl.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Dutchie said:


> Are you sure about it being her fault?


Yep. Positively. She said so herself.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2014)

Bellyman said:


> This statement bugs me. It implies that no matter who says what, they are at least in part, lying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The direction of a state relative to one's current location is a verifiable fact, the dissolution of a marriage is squishy emotions colored by one's point of view...

I told my kids that their Father's and my marriage falling apart was shades of grey, colored by each of our points' of view. His, mine, and the actuality was in the middle. He agrees. (A couple years ago, he sat on New Dear Hubby's back patio drinking beer for a couple nights while the three of us celebrated my daughter's HS graduation.) He still has his opinions, and I still have mine - but we realize that Life moves on anyway. We can be bigger than our differences...


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Dutchie said:


> Seriously? It is all her fault? .


*YES !*





Dutchie said:


> What if the husband is a lousy lover? What if he is disinterested in her (or even abusive) during the day but expects her to warm right up at night? Of course, after SHE has done the child care, house keeping, meal prep, laundry, dishes etc from 6 am to 9 pm without any assistance from him and is now exhausted. What if he is sloppy on the personal hygiene?
> 
> See? It isn't always the guy who gets the short end of the stick.


Did you read Willows post that I was commenting on? She didn't say ANYTHING like that. Besides so what if your what ifs were true? Still no excuse for her cheating.
Remember she was apparently enjoying the sex till she got the "Sex Trophies" she wanted.
Going from what Willow said " She loves being a homemaker but lost all interest in sex after the kids were born " ,not "he got lazy and filthy"
Its easy to see what happened She got what she wanted and doesn't feel a need to keep up her end of the Bargain. Yet She EXPECTS him to Still keep up his end of the bargain.
That's plain EVIL!
Think about it She presented herself as one thing then as soon as she felt confident in retaining the things she wanted She quit the pretext.
Don't build a relationship based even in part on mutually interested and interesting sex then expect to have that relationship when the sex stops.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

rkintn said:


> I don't think it implies that both sides are lying. I think it says that each side has their own perceptions about why the marriage failed but that the real reasons are usually a combination of the two sides.


This might be true from time to time But in my experience usually ONE person has a very clear picture of the situation and the other is simply spinning things to suit themselves.
So I agree with Bellyman.
Its a pet peeve that people try to compromise when sometimes people simply need to be told they are wrong.


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