# Shallow well pump problems



## Shorty954 (May 28, 2020)

We are living off grid at our property in Northern Nevada. I have a 3000 gallon poly water storage tank and am using a shallow well pump(similar to the one at harbor freight but a little better).
Now my problem, the pump cycles every 30 seconds. I have tried adding more air to the pressure tank almost to 50psi. when it's that high a pressure it cycles every 15 seconds even with no water running anywhere. When it's lower it does run for longer almost a minute even with the water turned on.
My only thought is I have one elbow with a very slow drip, also I do not have a checkvalve in-line.
Am I on the wrong track?
Thank you for any help.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Maybe the pressure switch?


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Your pressure switch controls power to the motor, and, therefore its duty-cycle. If your pump is cycling every 30 seconds, even when the pressure in the tank is in between the on and off pressures, then something is not wired right. 

When you say you add air to your pressure tank, are you adding it when it has water in it? You can only set the effective pressure in a pressure tank when it is empty of water, and that empty pressure should be about 2 psi less than the “on” pressure of your switch. 

So, if you have a 30-50# switch, you set up the tank by cutting power to the pump, emptying the tank, and airing it up to 28#. That way, the pressure switch turns the pump on before the tank is empty, and turns it back off when it gets to 50#. 

Even if you have a slow drip somewhere (or even multiple slow drips), it should take a lot longer than 30 seconds to run the pressure tank down to almost empty, causing the pump to power on.


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## Rural Kanuck (Apr 13, 2020)

Foot valve in the well leaking back perhaps, can happen if it picks up some debris ?


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## Shorty954 (May 28, 2020)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Your pressure switch controls power to the motor, and, therefore its duty-cycle. If your pump is cycling every 30 seconds, even when the pressure in the tank is in between the on and off pressures, then something is not wired right.
> 
> When you say you add air to your pressure tank, are you adding it when it has water in it? You can only set the effective pressure in a pressure tank when it is empty of water, and that empty pressure should be about 2 psi less than the “on” pressure of your switch.
> 
> ...



Thank You I will check the pressure. It was at 25psi when new, but it cycled on/off every few seconds with no leaks or open valves. I raised the pressure about 2psi and tested it until I reached almost 50psi.


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## Shorty954 (May 28, 2020)

Cornhusker said:


> Maybe the pressure switch?


I will look and see if I can find the pressure switch.


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## Shorty954 (May 28, 2020)

Do you think I need a check valve so it doesn't back wash? I'm getting water from a water tank not a well so the system actually flows when the pump is turned off.
I will take a quick video of my system, maybe that will help.


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## Rural Kanuck (Apr 13, 2020)

There MUST be a check valve in the system someplace to stop the the water from flowing back out of the pressure tank through the pump and back into the 'water tank' from where you drew it from. The switch sensor must be on the pressure side of that check, some pumps may have a check / backflow preventer built in.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Shorty954 said:


> I will look and see if I can find the pressure switch.


it will be a little black or gray box, about 2” square, mounted onto a T in the pipe feeing into and out of your pressure tank. It’ll have wires coming in from the breaker, and wires going out to the pump.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Shorty954 said:


> Do you think I need a check valve so it doesn't back wash? I'm getting water from a water tank not a well so the system actually flows when the pump is turned off.
> I will take a quick video of my system, maybe that will help.


If your water flows in from the top and you have an air gap, that will act as a back flow preventer. As long as your float works that is.


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## Shorty954 (May 28, 2020)

Rural Kanuck said:


> There MUST be a check valve in the system someplace to stop the the water from flowing back out of the pressure tank through the pump and back into the 'water tank' from where you drew it from. The switch sensor must be on the pressure side of that check, some pumps may have a check / backflow preventer built in.



I will add a check valve later today. Thank You. It's 102 outside, I'm old, so I'll wait till it cools down a little. LOL


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Shorty954 said:


> Thank You I will check the pressure. It was at 25psi when new, but it cycled on/off every few seconds with no leaks or open valves.


The water pressure switch will have a range, like 20-40 or 30-60.
It will turn the pump on at the low number and off at the high number.

The *air* pressure in your tank should be 2# less than the low number on the switch, and should be checked when the tank is empty. 

The switch is usually on top of the pump and will be marked with the numbers.
There is often a pressure gauge mounted nearby also.
If the contacts get dirty it can cause problems.


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## Shorty954 (May 28, 2020)

Here's a quick video of the setup I have for the pump. ANY suggestions will be greatly appreciated.


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## Shorty954 (May 28, 2020)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The water pressure switch will have a range, like 20-40 or 30-60.
> It will turn the pump on at the low number and off at the high number.
> 
> The *air* pressure in your tank should be 2# less than the low number on the switch, and should be checked when the tank is empty.
> ...



Thank You, the video was a great help.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

People thought your tank was located below the pump like maybe buried. That's why they thought you needed a check valve. In your situation the water can not flow out of your pump and back into the tank unless the level in the tank is below the pump. You probably don't need a check valve. If you are determined to put one in, it works best if installed in a vertical run of pipe. 

Are you trying to get this system to work for the first time or did it used to work and suddenly started cycling the pump on frequently? The tank and the pressure switch do need to be replaced periodically. A bad tank has a broken bladder so water will come out the Shrader valve when you push the center down. The pressure switch does have adjustments to the on and off settings. Instructions are located inside the switch's cover. Be careful not to touch the hot electrical components when adjusting. Replacing the switch is fairly easy. Be sure to get the right range switch. Should be the same as the old one. New switches are preset to the right range so shouldn't need any adjustment. You should check the tube from the pressure switch to the tank. It must be clear. If it's plugged the switch won't work properly.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Nimrod said:


> People thought your tank was located below the pump like maybe buried. That's why they thought you needed a check valve. In your situation the water can not flow out of your pump and back into the tank unless the level in the tank is below the pump. You probably don't need a check valve. If you are determined to put one in, it works best if installed in a vertical run of pipe.
> 
> Are you trying to get this system to work for the first time or did it used to work and suddenly started cycling the pump on frequently? The tank and the pressure switch do need to be replaced periodically. A bad tank has a broken bladder so water will come out the Shrader valve when you push the center down. The pressure switch does have adjustments to the on and off settings. Instructions are located inside the switch's cover. Be careful not to touch the hot electrical components when adjusting. Replacing the switch is fairly easy. Be sure to get the right range switch. Should be the same as the old one. New switches are preset to the right range so shouldn't need any adjustment. You should check the tube from the pressure switch to the tank. It must be clear. If it's plugged the switch won't work properly.


He might still needs a check valve of some sort. 50psi can hold up something like 6 gallons of water (at ~8# per gallon) in a 1 sq/in column. With a 1/2” ID pipe, that’s still like 4 1/2 gallons of water. That would fill several feet of pipe. His pressure tank may never hit the 50# the switch is looking for and never shut off.


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## Shorty954 (May 28, 2020)

Nimrod said:


> People thought your tank was located below the pump like maybe buried. That's why they thought you needed a check valve. In your situation the water can not flow out of your pump and back into the tank unless the level in the tank is below the pump. You probably don't need a check valve. If you are determined to put one in, it works best if installed in a vertical run of pipe.
> 
> Are you trying to get this system to work for the first time or did it used to work and suddenly started cycling the pump on frequently? The tank and the pressure switch do need to be replaced periodically. A bad tank has a broken bladder so water will come out the Shrader valve when you push the center down. The pressure switch does have adjustments to the on and off settings. Instructions are located inside the switch's cover. Be careful not to touch the hot electrical components when adjusting. Replacing the switch is fairly easy. Be sure to get the right range switch. Should be the same as the old one. New switches are preset to the right range so shouldn't need any adjustment. You should check the tube from the pressure switch to the tank. It must be clear. If it's plugged the switch won't work properly.



Thank You,
It is a brand new tank, I don't use it except to fill our on-board tank on the motorhome. It has never cycled right. Even with no water running it still cycles. Also when I shut it off you can hear water running for a few seconds. I thought I had a air leak in the filters but they seem to hold pressure with no leaks. I'm going to try and let out some more air from the tank tomorrow. It was at 40=50psi, and the pump charges to just at 30psi. So tomorrow I will try lowering the pressure to 28psi and see if that helps.


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## Shorty954 (May 28, 2020)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> He might still needs a check valve of some sort. 50psi can hold up something like 6 gallons of water (at ~8# per gallon) in a 1 sq/in column. With a 1/2” ID pipe, that’s still like 4 1/2 gallons of water. That would fill several feet of pipe. His pressure tank may never hit the 50# the switch is looking for and never shut off.


If it helps, I'm using 1" PVC pipe all the way to the faucets. Through the Filters, and UV light.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

I'd put a check valve on both sides of the pump.
They may not be "needed" but they can't hurt anything either.
If you use valves with compression fittings it makes it easy to remove and reinstall the pump for repair or replacement.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

If there are no visible leaks my first thought is that the check valve is allowing water to be forced back down into the well. That would lower the pressure and cause the pump to start.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

If you hear water running after it shuts off, I am willing to bet you need a check valve. that water running you hear is water draining back in to the reservoir ..
You do not have to replace the pressure switch with a similar one. You can put any switch in. 20/40 30/50
I wouldn't go any higher for household use.
I put a 30/50 because I had to run 300 feet of garden hose to my garden.
start by setting the correct pressure. then add the check valve if needed.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

fishhead said:


> If there are no visible leaks my first thought is that the check valve is allowing water to be forced back down into the well.


There is no well.


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## damoc (Jul 14, 2007)

Can you take a few pics and get some better specs I converted to off grid back in California and used one of Harbor freights pumps to supply water to the house it was finnicky at best. There are better ways to do things than relying on common available pumps,parts and setups.


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## Shorty954 (May 28, 2020)

There is a video on an above post. If that helps


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## damoc (Jul 14, 2007)

Shorty I don't have the 100% but like others have said it could be draining back somehow but long story short there is not enough storage leeway between on and off so I would be looking at why your pressure tank is allowing it to cycle so quickly and the most obvious is that is is leaking back. I would drop my pressure needs when working with a pump that is like harbor freight.
The lower pressure can benefit the off gridder and most appliances will work AOK at the lower pressures.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

You need a check valve or a foot valve otherwise you have bleed back. You should not put more air in your tank instead check the pressure controller settings.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> There is no well.


Substitute "water source" for well.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2009)

turn off the power to the pump.
open a faucet and let it run until no more water comes out
then set the air pressure to two pounds less than the turn on pressure. 
(40/60=38 psi) (30/50=28 psi) (20/40=18 psi)
try the pump.
I would put in a check valve/foot valve regardless.
If water comes out of the air valve, your diaphragm is shot. replace the pressure tank.


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## Shorty954 (May 28, 2020)

fishhead said:


> Substitute "water source" for well.


I'm not using a well, I use a 3000 Gallon water tank. I have to haul water 20 miles from town to fill my water tank.


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## Shorty954 (May 28, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> turn off the power to the pump.
> open a faucet and let it run until no more water comes out
> then set the air pressure to two pounds less than the turn on pressure.
> (40/60=38 psi) (30/50=28 psi) (20/40=18 psi)
> ...


When I turn off the pump the water gravity feeds through the lines. I would have to drain about 2000+ gallons right now. But It will be down to a few hundred gallons next week.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Shorty954 said:


> When I turn off the pump the water gravity feeds through the lines. I would have to drain about 2000+ gallons right now.


Your video shows a cut off valve at the tank, so I'm confused as to how it drains.

Plumb in some more cut-off valves in strategic locations so you can isolate sections of the system when repairs are needed.


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## Shorty954 (May 28, 2020)

I will be adding more check valves. There's three cutoffs, one at the tank, one on the pump and one at the hose faucet. I'm adding a check valve between the tank and the pump and another between the filters and the faucet.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Shorty954 said:


> I will be adding more check valves. There's three cutoffs, one at the tank, one on the pump and one at the hose faucet. I'm adding a check valve between the tank and the pump and another between the filters and the faucet.


Right, but with that cut-off valve at the tank, you can fix the problem you have now, with only minimal loss of water. 

Cut power to the pump (breaker before the pressure switch).

Turn off the valve at the tank. 

Drain the water in the system (from the cut-off valve forward).

Install your check valve(s) and any other service components you want to install.

Air your pressure tank up to 2# less than turn-on value.

Open the valve at the tank, and power on the pump.

Check for leaks. 

Drink beer.


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## Shorty954 (May 28, 2020)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Right, but with that cut-off valve at the tank, you can fix the problem you have now, with only minimal loss of water.
> 
> Cut power to the pump (breaker before the pressure switch).
> 
> ...



Can I start with the last part? 
Thank You


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Shorty954 said:


> Can I start with the last part?
> Thank You


Of course, but be aware that, if you do the whole process in reverse, you’ll have to keep drinking beer... out of necessity, because you’re not going to have any water.


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## Shorty954 (May 28, 2020)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Of course, but be aware that, if you do the whole process in reverse, you’ll have to keep drinking beer... out of necessity, because you’re not going to have any water.


I like that idea either way. 
Thank You


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## Shorty954 (May 28, 2020)

Thank you all for your help. It's all fixed now. Running like its supposed to. Added a check valve between the tank and the pump, lowered my tank pressure to 2lbs below the top pressure of the pump so 28pounds. Fixed a small water leak, and found that I had forgotten to glue one elbow next to the pump and it was sucking air. SO allot of things wrong and allot of things fixed. 
All I can say good thing I'm a retired truck driver and NOT a plumber.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Sounds like a good teaching experience.


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## Shorty954 (May 28, 2020)

fishhead said:


> Sounds like a good teaching experience.


It was very much a learning experience. I thank the whole group for their help.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

Shorty954 said:


> Thank You,
> It is a brand new tank, I don't use it except to fill our on-board tank on the motorhome. It has never cycled right. Even with no water running it still cycles. Also when I shut it off you can hear water running for a few seconds. I thought I had a air leak in the filters but they seem to hold pressure with no leaks. I'm going to try and let out some more air from the tank tomorrow. It was at 40=50psi, and the pump charges to just at 30psi. So tomorrow I will try lowering the pressure to 28psi and see if that helps.


.............................................................................................
...........The pressure in your pressure tank should be SET at 2 psi, BELOW the cut in pressure on your pressure switch ! So , if you have a 30/50 pressure switch set the tank pressure at 28 psi ! Now , this procedure needs to be done with NO pressure inside the tank.........So , close the shut off valve on the storage tank , turn off the pump , and let all the water in the tank drain out ! The air bladder Inside the pressure tank will now expand to the proper size , when you inflate it to 28 psi ! Now you can turn everything back ON ! , fordy


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Shorty954 said:


> It was very much a learning experience. I thank the whole group for their help.


It’s good knowing how your water system works. I’ve not had any problems with mine yet, but did dig into learning it shortly after buying this place. It’s not nearly so intimidating as it was when I bought it, and I don’t think I’d be afraid to dive in and fix any part of it when I inevitably do have a problem.


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