# Counties in WV in a state of emergency



## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

Due to a chemical getting leaked into the Elk River, which supplies drinking water for 100,000 people. . .

The water cannot be used for drinking, cooking, bathing, or even laundry. Boiling will not remove the chemical. I wonder how long this emergency will last. This does not look good.


http://www.wchstv.com/newsroom/eyewitness/140109_22268.shtml


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2014)

Thanks for posting this , I hadn't heard anything about it . I'm not close to any of the affected areas but some on here may be .


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Wow.. that's not a good thing. Thankfully it's not our counties. There's something big to be said too about living on a good well.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

thanks for sharing Becka


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## Peggy (Feb 14, 2010)

thanks for posting that. I am not in any of those counties. hope one one gets sick from this.


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## lindamarie (Jul 9, 2013)

Thanks for posting, we're not near there. So glad we have a good spring


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

It started out as no big deal this morning, then they changed their tune and declared a state of emergency for 5 counties. Now they've added a six county and part of a seventh.

Schools and restaurants are closed. Looks like my dh will not be going in to work tomorrow. His co-workers are freaking out running to the store for water, and already have reported it's crazy even at the gas stations. You would think with all the frozen pipes and winter weather, people would already have a little water stored on hand.

I've got a sick feeling about this and hope I'm wrong. Maybe everything will be ok in the morning. If not, this could get ugly. I still remember people fighting over ice during that big power outage/storm we had a year or two ago. I'm so glad we no longer live in town.


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## Raymond James (Apr 15, 2013)

They will be trucking in water as well as working on solutions to purify the water. 

This is going to be expensive and require a lot of collective (government ) action to get all of the communities affected through this. 

Ground water is generally safer than surface water but I would not assume my well was not affected if I lived in the area. 

You cannot monitor for every chemical, you can monitor PH it should not change. A change in PH means something is going on below ground that is affecting your well.


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## Vosey (Dec 8, 2012)

Wow. They don't say what the chemical is either. Not good in the long run for run off and wildlife etc! I'll bet there's a lot of people without water on hand either or used it before anyone knew. Keep us posted Becka.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2014)

Spill was 4-Methylcyclohexane Methanol near Charleston.


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

deleted as our local 911 FaceBook page gave 2 reports that conflicted each ocher within 30 minutes.


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## Vosey (Dec 8, 2012)

Maybe post this on the general homesteading forum?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

What's really interesting is that West Virginia American Water, a German company, operates the water plants in those areas and it doesn't look like they discovered the contamination until they were told. You'd think the smell should have been a giveaway.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2014)

Maybe this is why they are concerned Rick
http://www.wowktv.com/
"According to West Virginia American Water, a Do Not Use Water order has been issued for the counties of Boone, Jackson, Kanawha, Lincoln, and Putnam, Logan, Roane and Clay in WV."


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

Rick, WCHS News in Charleston reported that Roane county is included. The story was updated about 10 minutes ago online. I'm surprised that this was no big deal this morning and now 8 counties are involved. Something doesn't sound right.

I wonder how this will affect the hospitals.


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

Raymond James said:


> Ground water is generally safer than surface water but I would not assume my well was not affected if I lived in the area.
> 
> You cannot monitor for every chemical, you can monitor PH it should not change. A change in PH means something is going on below ground that is affecting your well.


Thanks for this info. I was not aware it might affect wells, too.

Some nut on facebook posted they have well water and will offer showers for $50. I hope he was just joking.


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

Looks like another county has been added for a total of nine: Boone, Cabell, Clay, Jackson, Kanawha, Lincoln, Logan, Putnam, and Roane counties.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Becka said:


> Some nut on facebook posted they have well water and will offer showers for $50. I hope he was just joking.


It's $20 if he gets to watch.


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## baldylocks (Aug 15, 2007)

Watching the news right now. Hospitals are conserving linens and using alternative cleaning methods. They do have several day's worth on hand but hey are in conservation mode. Supermarkets were wild earlier until all the liquids had sold out. Makes me glad I had water here. The duration will tell the real tale...


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

*It's Not A Problem To Panic Over.*

It's doubtful a well would be affected. The spill isn't far from where the Elk flows into the Kanawha. The Kanawha is flowing about 15,000 cubic feet per second or 112,000 gallons per second or 6,000,000 gallons per minute. That's a lot of water to dilute a spill. By now most of it may be in the Ohio River.

http://waterdata.usgs.gov/usa/nwis/uv?03198000

The MSDS info is at the following link. There's no toxicological info. Check out the instructions if you drink it. Essentially it says if you don't feel good, go see someone. That's about as harmless as you can get. The biggest potential as an alcohol is that it is flammable, Personally I wouldn't sweat it if I was on a well. On city water after a day or so I'd sniff the tap water. If it smelled normal, I'd drink it. Right now might not be a good time to run the faucet while smoking. That assumes a worse case of getting a slug of the stuff in your sink.

MSDS, Material Safety Data Sheet for the liquid spilled is on the right of the page linked. Believe it or not there are MSDS sheets for common household cleaners too. that's part of OSHA's craziness.

http://www.tcichemicals.com/eshop/en/ch/commodity/M1412/

From the Emergency Response Guidebook put out by the USDOT, it's guide 128 which covers an alcohol that's water immiscible (doesn't mix with water). It floats meaning it probably wasn't pulled in by an underwater intake at a water treatment plant.


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## Raymond James (Apr 15, 2013)

If you live in the area and have not gotten some type of communication from the water company - phone call, flyer on the door, email I would advise looking at your water bill to make sure you KNOW who your water company is. Then go tot he companies web site and see what they are telling you. 

I do not know the area. I have however seen several cases in the past where people assumed they had a certain water company and something did not affect them - wrong. Also seen where folks thought they had a problem to find out they did not get water from the company having the problem. You would be surprised at how many people who do not know the name of the water company, how to get ahold of them. 

Many water suppliers are now large multinational corporations. 


Besides checking with your water company check with your local emergency management office or health department . There should be information on alternative water distribution put out soon.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

ernie said:


> it's $20 if he gets to watch.


lmao!


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## soulsurvivor (Jul 4, 2004)

I know every source urges the public not to panic and that's fair considering the implications already stated about what a panic can do, but folks need to know this is serious enough to pay attention and not drink their water source until an all clear is issued. Making light of the situation may contribute to someone actually drinking their possibly contaminated water.

http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/...trong-Smell-in-Kanawha-Valley--239434751.html

Needed to know:

It is Methylcyclohexane Methanol, a chemical used in froth flotation process of coal washing and preparation.

The leak is believed to have happened at the Freedom Industries in Charleston and believed to have leaked into the Elk River.

There is no estimated time when this will be repaired. The water has a licorice smell.

West Virginia DHHR says symptoms include: severe burning in throat, severe eye irritation, non-stop vomiting, trouble breathing, or severe skin irritation such as skin blistering.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Try drinking 190 proof alcohol like Everclear found in liquor stores and you'll have the same symptoms depending on what part of you body touches it: severe burning in throat, severe eye irritation, non-stop vomiting, trouble breathing, or severe skin irritation such as skin blistering

Methylcyclohexane Methanol is a non-toxic alcohol plain and simple. I'm not fond of OSHA because of some of their idiocies. However, the MSDS sheets they require for virtually all materials, including bricks, indicate the stuff is non life threatening. The danger from this spill is tthat he alcohol is flammable, just like whiskey. 

As an example a restaurant is required to keep a book of MSDS sheets available for employees to reference. those sheets would cover all of the cleaning products used along with alcohol used for those flaming cooking processes

When something happens like the Elk River spill, determine for yourself and your family whether there is a serious threat and the level of that threat. If a train of tank cars derails, that means there's a chance of an explosion. If I live close to that, I'm not going to head for the grocery store for water. I'll be headed away as fast as I can, whether it's by car or on foot because of the imminent danger.

There's a manual available free to first responders from the US Department of Transportation that covers every chemical transported in this country. It's called the Emergency Response Guidebook, ERG for short. It allows you to decipher the numerical code on placards found on trucks, rail cars etc. and tell you what the potential is. 

If you want one ask at your local fire department for an old copy. I'm looking at a couple of 2000s, a bunch of 2004s and a couple of the newest 2012s as I type this setting in the fire station. There's a new copy in every one of our trucks.

For those who want to learn, look at this thread carefully. If you're going to react to a incident do everything you can to get the information you need to avoid wasting time and money. You need to know when to escalate your response. Public sources can't always be relied on immediately after the event. Know which incidents are the get out of Dodge immediately variety and which are strictly a ho hum, what's for dinner type. 

The spill was a ho hum what's for dinner situation. If a train of tank cars derails near you, that's a situation where I would be the first one out of town if I wasn't a first responder. If I saw that on TV and the police had traffic stopped. the last thing I would do is head for the grocery store if that trip took me much closer to the derailment.

Getting an ERG can make for interesting times during travel. If you knew what some of the tank trucks were carrying you wouldn't cruise down the road alongside them. Are they in imminent danger of blowing up? Nope! But you don't want to be near when someone in the no zone get's clobbered when the trucker changes lanes and doesn't see them resulting in an accident.

After the first delivery, if not empty, the piping under a tanker contains about 200 gallons of gasoline. That's enough to create a big problem if hit by a car. Get an ERG. They're easy to use. And don't panic. Panic can get you killed.


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

You can bet people or terrorists looking to distrupt food and water systems in the future are watching this with a scheming mind. I doubt if most people were prepared for something like this. It can happen anywhere at any time so this water emergency is a good lesson in prepping. Clean drinking water is one of the most valuable resources to prep. People in WVa can still use the contaminated water for toilets, putting out fires, etc. But this will be a great economic burden of many folks in WVa that have place like resturants, diners or other businesses that depend on clean water. They have to close and that gives them a big hit in the pocket book. Hard to believe a spill can shut down half of a state ... but it did. This really shows how vulnerable our food and water pipeline to the public really is.
Ohio Rusty ><>

"Control the food, and you control the people, control oil, and you control nations" ....... Henry Kissenger, 1970


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Ohio Rusty said:


> You can bet people or terrorists looking to distrupt food and water systems in the future are watching this with a scheming mind. I doubt if most people were prepared for something like this. It can happen anywhere at any time so this water emergency is a good lesson in prepping. Clean drinking water is one of the most valuable resources to prep. *People in WVa can still use the contaminated water for toilets, putting out fires, etc.* But this will be a great economic burden of many folks in WVa that have place like resturants, diners or other businesses that depend on clean water. They have to close and that gives them a big hit in the pocket book. Hard to believe a spill can shut down half of a state ... but it did. This really shows how vulnerable our food and water pipeline to the public really is.
> Ohio Rusty ><>


*Would you use alcohol to put out a fire?* That's what the stuff is. One the practical side anyone pulling water out of a stream to fight a fire would have the intake end below the surface which means it wouldn't pull the alcohol because it floats on water.

If you want to drink the water, fill a clear container. You should be able to see the alcohol floating on top if it's there. If there's no layer and no licorice smell you're good to go. Drink it. If you see an alcohol layer you could burn it off taking proper precautions such as don't do burn it inside or close to the house. what's left is pure water.

For those who want an ERG, here's a source to get one cheap. $2.72 plus mailing for the latest version. The guide and common sense might just save you some day.

http://www.zorotools.com/g/00124703/k-G4634472


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

While I understand panic is not a good thing, I don't plan to drink the water anytime soon. One lady I know of who cleans houses ended up with stinging hands yesterday before she knew anything of the water ban. Obviously, the liquorice smell wasn't present or her cleaning chemicals masked the smell to where she didn't notice it.

Another guy said the water turned his laundry a different color. Again, nothing was said about the water having a smell in his home. So, I'm not quite ready to drink the stuff yet.

As said before, this has a huge impact on businesses that rely on water usage: hotels, restaurants, day cares, hair salons, laundry services, car washes, etc. In an economy where people are barely getting by paycheck to paycheck, we might see some panic when employees have no work and no money.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Wouldn't this alcohol be similar to methanol like run in race cars? If so, isn't that similar to wood alcohol? If so, isn't that toxic? wood alcohol will make you blind and kill you if you ingest enough..


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

What did West Virginia do to make Chris Christie angry?


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## bassmaster17327 (Apr 6, 2011)

My Grandma is in Charleston WV Hospital, they have bottled water but the cafeteria and coffee shop is not open. I personally do not care who says it is safe, I don't want to be drinking it


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

There are some rumors so far that the tank was deliberately damaged. Sabotage.


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

Darren wrote:
*Would you use alcohol to put out a fire?*

The answer is actually yes ... but not a large amount. When I was a volunteer fireman years ago we would add alcohol to the water in the tanker. The alcohol makes the water 'wetter' and makes the water more effective for fighting a house fire. 
Ohio Rusty ><>

"Control the food, and you control the people, control oil, and you control nations" ....... Henry Kissenger, 1970


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

Ernie said:


> There are some rumors so far that the tank was deliberately damaged. Sabotage.


I haven't heard any of those rumors yet, but some folks are wondering if our recent weather might have had something to do with it. We had below zero temperatures, then a fast warm up period. The containment was concrete, so some are wondering if the weather caused the concrete to crack to the point the chemical could leak out.


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## joshp (Aug 9, 2007)

For more information about the toxicity of this chemical: 

http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb%3A%40term+%40DOCNO+2910


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

simi-steading said:


> Wouldn't this alcohol be similar to methanol like run in race cars? If so, isn't that similar to wood alcohol? If so, isn't that toxic? wood alcohol will make you blind and kill you if you ingest enough..


It's not wood alcohol. The MSDS sheet shows no toxicity. A chemistry professor at Marshal University reached for comment dismissed any toxic effects. The chemical spilled is an irritant not a poison.

http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/Chemical-Spill-Fallout-239533291.html

There's quite a few lessons to be learned here. Even though this is far from a SHTF situation, the reaction of government officials and the public was troubling. People from Charleston almost emptied the shelves of water at a Walmert over two hours away. That was after a supplier made an emergency shipment.

Lots of over reaction. Both the governor and the local major were clueless. That points up the fact that any first responder that's been through a basic hazmat class knew more than the officials talking to the public. Few people seem to have the ability to find information on their own.

No one understood the magnitude of the dilution effect in the river. No one was told that if they drew water for drinking that the alcohol would float on the top of the water and could be drawn off leaving perfectly uncontaminated water.

In a real SHTF, forget getting any help from the government and realize you are absolutely on your own. Expect irrational behavior from the general population. 

While that would seem to be self evident, the non-toxic spill proved people are not good at handling unfamiliar situations, This one was easy which makes it more disturbing. 

I recommend those planning for a SHTF or even uncommon emergencies get an ERG and get familiar with it. That information in that handbook could save your life some day.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

joshp said:


> For more information about the toxicity of this chemical:
> 
> http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@[email protected]+2910


That links to methycyclohexanol. The spill was methycyclohexane. Different stuff.


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

Darren: what's an ERG?

It does occur to me, that as the industrial infrastructure starts to crumble, people would be exposed - to some degree, in limited local areas - to the various agents and chemicals used in manufacturing. It really DOES make sense to learn a bit about these things - and maybe even learn to test for them. (Within reason; I don't see myself becoming a chemist!)


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

The ERG is the Emergency Response Guide published by the US Department of Transportation. It's normally used by first responders to identify the substance involved in an accident, explains the dangers of each and describes the evacuation area, etc.

Trucks are required to have a placard that shows a number when carrying a hazardous material (hazmat). By identifying the number on the placard, sometimes with binoculars, you look the number up in the ERG and determine whether the material is likely to ignite, whether it is a pollutant, how to fight a fire involving the substance, etc.

The ERG also identifies the various types of rail cars and road trailers with pictures.

I posted a picture of the manual earlier in this thread and a link to a place to but one cheap. This is a picture of a placard on a trailer that the ERG would identify once you had the number.


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## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

The Kanawha valley is a chemical valley with many chemical plants located there and the people are always in fear of spills/ leaks. They are pretty common.


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

My observations so far--

The distribution points are well managed and very civil. There's no mob violence or cutting in line. People seem to want to help each other for the most part. I'm surprised at how generous strangers are to each other, checking on neighbors and the elderly. We the people have a little more sense than we credit ourselves with sometimes.

Most folks are going about their normal routine as much as possible. The lack of fast food and fresh coffee is a comment complaint.

Although water sells quickly, I have not really seen any panic. People just want to have enough to take care of their families. Empty shelves do not equal panic. It just shows there is a higher demand for the product.

I'm noticing shiny new vehicles with DC government license plates and Obama bumper stickers. Not sure why THEY are here or what they hope to accomplish. If they want to hand out water, that's fine. I do hope they won't use this as an opportunity to bash our coal industry since the chemical leaked is used for coal.

All the HAZMAT folks I know are still showering and seem unconcerned about the water, while the coal miners who work with the chemical are very cautious.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

What I'm wondering is how are they going to clean the system out once they think they have it contained? Sure they can flush out the city feeder lines but what about all the lines in a office building, homes, businesses, water heaters, dish washers....


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

Thanks Darren; I missed the link.


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## Raymond James (Apr 15, 2013)

This does show you how venerable our modern society is. I think everyone needs at least a rain barrel or two, well and a pond / spring/stream if you can. That way you have options to keep you and your family safe. This shows it does not have to be an end of civilization as we know it /SHTF problem to ruin your day/week/month (s) .

A lot of time, effort and money being used now to fix what should have been a very small problem. 

Sure would have been nice if the containment berm had been big enough to keep this stuff out of the river. 

I know many on this site think the EPA has gone over board some may even think it should be done away with. But now is the time that a lot of people are wondering why the company was allowed ( by the local/state/federal government ) to store such a quantity near the river without a big enough containment system. 

Meanwhile the House Representatives voted this past week to remove/ weaken rules on storing hazardous materials. 

I think there is a balance between what companies/ individual homeowners should be allowed to do on their own. I know people that were upset when told by the fuel company they would not fill the gasoline tank until it was moved away from a well or occupied structure. They felt it was their business yet plenty of examples especially in southern Missouri where something got in one well and polluted several others in the area. Is it likely that the fuel would spill and get in the well probably not but why take a chance. Can't move the well but the tank can easily be moved 50 ft away from the well. 

In southern Missouri we had one company think they could dispose of some spilled molasses by dumping it into a sink hole. After all you can eat the stuff right? It came out of a spring 30 miles away and killed fish for miles. The decomposition of the molasses took up all the oxygen in the water.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Becka said:


> My observations so far--
> 
> The distribution points are well managed and very civil. There's no mob violence or cutting in line. People seem to want to help each other for the most part. I'm surprised at how generous strangers are to each other, checking on neighbors and the elderly. We the people have a little more sense than we credit ourselves with sometimes.


This is how things went in Des Moines when they lost their water supply for 12 days in 1993. The water plant was flooded, and most of the city had no water pressure the whole time. :shocked: My parents still live there, and at the time, my dad was a firefighter and my mom worked at the police department, in the office.

The biggest concern was about what would happen if a big fire broke out, and sure enough, that did happen. Fortunately, it was right next to some flood water, and they stuck an intake hose into that water, rigged up a pump, put the fire out, and then everyone on that crew got their hepatitis A and B shots updated.


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## Raymond James (Apr 15, 2013)

Ohio Rusty said:


> Darren wrote:
> *Would you use alcohol to put out a fire?*
> 
> The answer is actually yes ... but not a large amount. When I was a volunteer fireman years ago we would add alcohol to the water in the tanker. The alcohol makes the water 'wetter' and makes the water more effective for fighting a house fire.
> ...


I have routinely used soap but never alcohol. Perhaps if the truck wasn't parked in a heated garage a small amount.

With the soap 1 bottle of dawn per 500 gallon tank.

I also think keeping a copy of the ERG is a good thing. In my last EMT class we mentioned it, someone wanted to see a copy and I said just a second. Went out and got it out of my truck for the class to see they thought it strange that I would have a copy with me . In the Fire truck or ambulance but not your own truck. I on the other hand carry a ERG and binoculars with me just so I can assess an accident scene before I decide if it is safe to get closer to help. I also want to be able to tell the 911 operator what is going. Can't do that without an ERG.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

The media is tying the chemical used back to the Koch brothers.

Apparently they own the company that manufactures the chemical and sold it to Freedom Industries. 

Watch closely how this unfolds. The liberal media has wanted an opportunity to attack the Koch Brothers for their donations and support to the Republican establishment. So does the Obama administration. And neither are big fans of the coal mining industry.

This will have interesting political ramifications that will go long beyond the cleanup.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

The anti-coal folks are already on this. The contradiction they won't tell you is that the chemical which is an alcohol enables the recovery of the coal fines. Would they rather that was dumped in a gob pile to smoulder?


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## Riverrat (Oct 14, 2008)

Did not look up the chemicals but FYI the ERG is available on line for free download. It is a great source of information....


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## bassmaster17327 (Apr 6, 2011)

Riverrat said:


> Did not look up the chemicals but FYI the ERG is available on line for free download. It is a great source of information....


Everyone can see how easy it is to use the ERG, for the ten years I was a firefighter we had to take a six hour class EVERY year to be "refreshed" on how to use the book. The government clearly thinks firefighters are so dumb they can't remember how to read from year to year


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

Ernie said:


> There are some rumors so far that the tank was deliberately damaged. Sabotage.


It would be quite interesting if this is what happened, and it was done by the kind of person who appears on "Doomsday Preppers" so they could say "Told ya so."

:duel:


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## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

Same time the 9 county Kanawha (can- naw)valley spill took place, there was another chemical spill into a containment pond (that is home to fish, geese and beaver... guess the animals don't know it's an iffy home)that eventually made it's way into the Ohio river above our home... 

The company's name is Kraton, of Belpre, Ohio. *(This was the Belpre OH Shell Chemical plant that exploded- had a raging tank fire in 1994 and lives were lost). I was talking to a friend about this tonight, and she said she looked for it but never saw it reported in the local newspaper ( Parkersburg WV ) but only saw it reported in the newspaper in the town an hour away ( Athens OH). 

scrt


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

bassmaster17327 said:


> Everyone can see how easy it is to use the ERG, for the ten years I was a firefighter we had to take a six hour class EVERY year to be "refreshed" on how to use the book. The government clearly thinks firefighters are so dumb they can't remember how to read from year to year


One of our instructors was a "colorful" individual who always referred to hazmats as methyl ethyl bad stuff. An easy to remember take away was if your hold you thumb up and look at the problem and you can't cover it entirely with your thumb while looking at it in the distance, you're too  close!


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## Junkman (Dec 17, 2005)

Our County and several around here have collected water, paper plates, cups, baby wipes and things needed. Several trucks are on their way. One lady put socks over her
faucets so kids would not drink the water by mistake. Ladies with babies have it rough. Is this a wake up call? Call me a prepper, but I have prepared for some things.


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

Junkman, please thank your friends and family who have helped with donations for those of us affected by the water ban. It is much appreciated! It makes me want to cry with joy the way folks have stepped up and helped out. This is a dire situation with the potential for becoming violent, yet everyone seems to be coping the best way possible instead. It makes me proud to see communities working together this way.

As for prepping, I have friends who have 2 wells and a rainwater system, and they still had trouble due to frozen pipes and such. It's not enough to have a back-up plan for something of this magnitude. You need SEVERAL backup plans and/or a bug out location.


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## WV Farm girl (Nov 26, 2011)

Local news was interviewing ppl here today asking if they thought they were prepared if a water contamination event happened in this area. One guy said sure, all you have to do is buy bottled water when it happens. Ugh. Obviously he has never thought that everyone else is going to be buying water too. 
Another man said yeah, he had water but food might be an issue. Clearly oblivious to prepping for anything.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

If we learn from this incident, we may be prepared for something more serious in the future that could kill people. Until that time, it's everyone for themselves and their family. Anytime you're tied into the system, whether it's for water or to buy food at a grocery store you may be betting your life.


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

Becka said:


> Junkman, please thank your friends and family who have helped with donations for those of us affected by the water ban. It is much appreciated! It makes me want to cry with joy the way folks have stepped up and helped out. This is a dire situation with the potential for becoming violent, yet everyone seems to be coping the best way possible instead. It makes me proud to see communities working together this way.
> 
> As for prepping, I have friends who have 2 wells and a rainwater system, and they still had trouble due to frozen pipes and such. It's not enough to have a back-up plan for something of this magnitude. You need SEVERAL backup plans and/or a bug out location.



We have learned to have minimal needs, on all fronts.

The first year our rainwater froze, I broke it with an ice pick, and bathed in heated ice. We were still buying Culligan water that year, but now run rain water through filters.


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

The water company has lifted the ban and is trying hard to convince us the water is usable, well, except for pregnant women and for young children. . .

We've flushed our systems and the chemical smell is just as strong as ever. The water is colored and the smell so overpowering, one cannot even breathe in the bathroom long enough to take a shower. Made us all sick again today, the dog, too, even with the windows open and fan running.

I guess they want us to believe everything is ok and we can get back to business as usual, but I'm not buying it. As long as the water smells enough to make me sick, I won't be using it.

Oh, and the company that caused this disaster? Well, they conveniently filed chapter 11 bankruptcy.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Becka said:


> Oh, and the company that caused this disaster? Well, they conveniently filed chapter 11 bankruptcy.


What better way to preserve their ... assets? Now they're conveniently beyond the reach of the people they have harmed, oh, and the unknown number of generations in whom birth defects and cancers will linger.


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## Vosey (Dec 8, 2012)

Becka said:


> The water company has lifted the ban and is trying hard to convince us the water is usable, well, except for pregnant women and for young children. . .
> 
> We've flushed our systems and the chemical smell is just as strong as ever. The water is colored and the smell so overpowering, one cannot even breathe in the bathroom long enough to take a shower. Made us all sick again today, the dog, too, even with the windows open and fan running.
> 
> ...


And all I heard on the radio news today was gleeful "the water is back on!" by reporters. That sounds awful Becka. Keep us posted.


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

An owner of Freedom Industries magically created a company out of thin air this week to take the assets of Freedom. Freedom was only created a couple of weeks ago, just long enough for the spill to happen. Now they are "bankrupt" and the same owner is allowed to keep his company under a new name, looks like. Whoever the owners/operators are, it would seem they are very slick and up-to-date with all the legal loopholes, as if they have done this sort of thing before. Or maybe they anticipated what would happen?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

The WV business database shows Freedom was registered as a corporation twenty years ago. I agree the true owner has a smart lawyer.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Darren said:


> The WV business database shows Freedom was registered as a corporation twenty years ago. I agree the true owner has a smart lawyer.


Do you know what a shell corporation is?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

In this case it was a wholly owned subsidiary incorporated in WV meaning it is a domestic versus a foreign corporation. It's still slight of hand. What it does, and I could be wrong, is prevent someone from using diversity to sue in federal court. Obviously the $50,000 damage limit requirement has been met. Diversity is the wall.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Becka said:


> An owner of Freedom Industries magically created a company out of thin air this week to take the assets of Freedom. Freedom was only created a couple of weeks ago, just long enough for the spill to happen. Now they are "bankrupt" and the same owner is allowed to keep his company under a new name, looks like. Whoever the owners/operators are, it would seem they are very slick and up-to-date with all the legal loopholes, as if they have done this sort of thing before. Or maybe they anticipated what would happen?


Ah, the wonders of corporations. There are a couple of companies here who routinely do the same thing. And one non-profit too. They skirt by with minimum expense, maximum take, frequently fraudulent practice and, when the inevitable catches up with them, they close shop under one name, selling their assets basically to themselves under another name, and take the profits and run. And magically reappear, open for business under the new name. Sans pension obligations, old debts and liability.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Quite a few out of state companies ducked paying workman's compensation that way in WV in the past.


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

Darren said:


> The WV business database shows Freedom was registered as a corporation twenty years ago. I agree the true owner has a smart lawyer.


Darren, the current form was a merger that happened the last week in 2013. 
http://www.businessweek.com/article...es-the-company-behind-the-west-virginia-spill

The "lending company" was just formed this week. Let me look for a link. . .
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/01/17/1270601/-More-on-Bancruptcy-Filing-of-Freedom-Industries#


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I saw the info on the lending company. Looks like all of Chemstream's businesses in WV were consolidated under Freedom Industries so one bankruptcy would protect everything.


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

This is day 13 of us not being able to use the water here, but officials are trying hard to make us believe everything is back to "normal." We've flushed our system several times and the smell still lingers. We have no idea if, or when, it will go away. People are fed up with using nothing but bottled water and are now using the contaminated water for bathing and laundry. 

Yesterday the smell seemed minimal in my bathroom, so I took a quick warm shower in the stuff. After all, it's supposed to be SAFE, right? Five minutes later I had stinging, watery eyes and an upset stomach, plus I itched all over. The first two symptoms lasted half an hour, the itching still continues. I also have a stinging in my lips, as if I had touched seafood (I'm allergic) and that has lasted the entire time of this water ban even though I'm not drinking the water. Also, my blond highlights now have a green tint. My father-in-law has snow white hair. He took a shower and now has green hair.

I guess we're supposed to shut up and pretend everything is ok, as if this is not dangerous to our health? Are you all hearing anything on the MSM anymore? It's like, oops, there was a spill but a few days have passed, so let's pretend all is well and it never happened. Keep living life as normal and ignore it!:grumble:


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Becka said:


> I guess we're supposed to shut up and pretend everything is ok, as if this is not dangerous to our health? Are you all hearing anything on the MSM anymore? It's like, oops, there was a spill but a few days have passed, so let's pretend all is well and it never happened. Keep living life as normal and ignore it!:grumble:


I've been without water for two weeks at one time and know how difficult it is. And I thoughly agree with your outrage at the lack of attention in the media. This is a news story of use to everyone yet time is wasted covering Obama's personal pot theories.
One thing I learned with the long water outage (No power) was the virtues of a camp shower, which is a solar heated small bag you can hang to take a shower. Uses a gallon or less for a shower including shampoo. 
Please keep us informed to make up for the lack of coverage.
Don't think that there aren't people concerned out here.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Another thought- some of the reactions you listed happened to me when I put too much chlorine into my water system. Could the water company have upped the chlorine to help clean up after the drop in use to make sure the pipes were decontaminated from possible bacteria?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I'm wondering about Chlorine too.


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

where I want to said:


> Another thought- some of the reactions you listed happened to me when I put too much chlorine into my water system. Could the water company have upped the chlorine to help clean up after the drop in use to make sure the pipes were decontaminated from possible bacteria?


That very well could be.


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

We are now three weeks into the water contamination. This is day 21 for us. Guess what? We were first told 2500 gallons of the chemical had spilled. Then it was upped to 7500. Then, oops, they forgot to tell us of a second chemical that was in the mix. Now the latest news is that 10,000 gallons were spilled. That's a far, far cry from the initial 2500 first reported. 

I tried doing some laundry. The water left a residue on the clothes that has caused us to itch and get rashes. Same with using the water to shower. Some folks are saying the water is fine, they use it with no problem. I cannot say the same. The dog will still not go near it.

Meanwhile, the water distribution in my area has stopped and officials insist the water is "safe."


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Becka said:


> We are now three weeks into the water contamination. This is day 21 for us. Guess what? We were first told 2500 gallons of the chemical had spilled. Then it was upped to 7500. Then, oops, they forgot to tell us of a second chemical that was in the mix. Now the latest news is that 10,000 gallons were spilled. That's a far, far cry from the initial 2500 first reported.
> 
> I tried doing some laundry. The water left a residue on the clothes that has caused us to itch and get rashes. Same with using the water to shower. Some folks are saying the water is fine, they use it with no problem. I cannot say the same. The dog will still not go near it.
> 
> Meanwhile, the water distribution in my area has stopped and officials insist the water is "safe."


Always disbelieve the official explanation.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

There was an article in the Daily Mail with info from a law professor on the bankruptcy and the difficulties piercing the corporate veil. It didn't hold out much hope for successful lawsuits.

http://www.charlestondailymail.com/News/Kanawha/201401260111


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

One more company crapping on WV.. pretty much what the coal companies have done for years too... end up filing bankruptcy and leaving everyone hanging..


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

simi-steading said:


> One more company crapping on WV.. pretty much what the coal companies have done for years too... end up filing bankruptcy and leaving everyone hanging..


Same thing with the oil companies out here in Texas. They have multiple shell corporations and at the first problem, or when the well starts to run dry, they dump their assets to someone else and then file bankruptcy. It's part of their business strategy.

This is why I, personally, will not incorporate and prefer to do business with non-incorporated people.

When you incorporate, you are saying, "I am not responsible, only this fictional entity I have created is." But that's not a Godly way to do business. Ernie is always responsible. I can't just pass that responsibility to some fictional legal entity in order to duck blame.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

The problem is easily traced back to Congress and the state legislatures. That's the way it's always been. Those horses left the barn a long time ago.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

Ernie said:


> This is why I, personally, will not incorporate and prefer to do business with non-incorporated people.
> 
> When you incorporate, you are saying, "I am not responsible, only this fictional entity I have created is." But that's not a Godly way to do business. Ernie is always responsible. I can't just pass that responsibility to some fictional legal entity in order to duck blame.


I see it the other way. I would suggest that small business owners need the protection of something like an LLC mainly for protection of assets that are not associated with the business.

Let's take a scenario. Someone buys one of your knives. The handle breaks, they cut off their index finger. They sue you for loss of future wages that they estimate to be $500,000. If they were to prevail, all of your family's assets are at risk. An LLC would restrict their claims to the assets of the business.

To me, it is a firewall to protect the family.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

logbuilder said:


> I see it the other way. I would suggest that small business owners need the protection of something like an LLC mainly for protection of assets that are not associated with the business.
> 
> Let's take a scenario. Someone buys one of your knives. The handle breaks, they cut off their index finger. They sue you for loss of future wages that they estimate to be $500,000. If they were to prevail, all of your family's assets are at risk. An LLC would restrict their claims to the assets of the business.
> 
> To me, it is a firewall to protect the family.


First off, I live in Texas on a homestead, so they can't take my farm for any reason. Period.

Second, the assets of the business at any given time are about $200. I'm not exactly a Rockefeller. 

Third, do you think I would have any trouble presenting a case in court that knives are dangerous and that it is a known risk that any buyer might cut themselves?


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

Keep it simple Ernie. You'll be much happier that way.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Win07_351 said:


> Keep it simple Ernie. You'll be much happier that way.


Yep. I don't have any dreams of starting a "Possum Dynasty".


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

Becka said:


> We are now three weeks into the water contamination. This is day 21 for us. Guess what? We were first told 2500 gallons of the chemical had spilled. Then it was upped to 7500. Then, oops, they forgot to tell us of a second chemical that was in the mix. Now the latest news is that 10,000 gallons were spilled. That's a far, far cry from the initial 2500 first reported.
> 
> I tried doing some laundry. The water left a residue on the clothes that has caused us to itch and get rashes. Same with using the water to shower. Some folks are saying the water is fine, they use it with no problem. I cannot say the same. The dog will still not go near it.
> 
> Meanwhile, the water distribution in my area has stopped and officials insist the water is "safe."


When we had the brain eating amoeba in our water supply they flushed with chlorine numerous times and we were told to let it run for five minutes before showering..we did all that but we had the green tints and the itchy skin. I hope they get this fixed for yall..and it is a shame that the only place I can find out whats happening is by reading this thread..I know its tough..Im sorry you have to deal with this


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

Ernie said:


> First off, I live in Texas on a homestead, so they can't take my farm for any reason. Period.
> 
> Second, the assets of the business at any given time are about $200. I'm not exactly a Rockefeller.
> 
> Third, do you think I would have any trouble presenting a case in court that knives are dangerous and that it is a known risk that any buyer might cut themselves?


Hey, I was just pointing out the risk to assets not associated with the business. Everyone makes their own decisions about how to handle risks. My ex went to massage school and got her certification. She and two other therapists opened their own practice. They created an LLC for the business. These were all established families with pre-existing familial assets and we were not willing to put everything at risk to a lawsuit.


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

it has been 3 weeks and the water still isn't safe to drink this is getting serious. there are a lot of families that don't have water.


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

this is a typical government cover up I am willing to bet that there are government officials that have stock in the water company.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

The company is owned by a German corporation. I don't think it's traded on the either of our stock exchanges. The problem lies with the cities and counties that gave up their water systems. If the elected officials don't take care of the municipal utilities they eventually deteriorate to the point they can't afford them. Then they get sold. Of course coal companies that create the initial problem dodge the bullet every time.

http://appvoices.org/2014/01/16/who-owns-west-virginias-water/


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

A rain barrel and a filter might be a lot of help to some of the folks in the Charleston WV area.


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

Darren said:


> The company is owned by a German corporation. I don't think it's traded on the either of our stock exchanges. The problem lies with the cities and counties that gave up their water systems. If the elected officials don't take care of the municipal utilities they eventually deteriorate to the point they can't afford them. Then they get sold. Of course coal companies that create the initial problem dodge the bullet every time.
> 
> http://appvoices.org/2014/01/16/who-owns-west-virginias-water/


I don't think the coal company caused this problem I know they are the end user of the chemical, but it seems like the company that was responsible for the safe keeping of its chemicals that it sold to the coal company for a profit is responsible.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I saw an NBC news splurb last night in which some public health offical said they were providing water because the constituents worried about it although it's safe and she is drinking it at home..... oh and by the way three schools tested positive so their waters systems were going to be purged.

I wondered if the water providers were going to charge people for all this "purging."


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

The water company said there would be a $10 credit made for the water that would be wasted for flushing the lines.. One person mentioned that they had gotten a very high water bill which made no sense because they had not used any water to drink.

I don't think the $10 will cover the amount of water needed for flushing meaning the water company isn't doing anyone any favors.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

This is a summary article by Bloomsburg. From what I've read previously there are two errors. One dealing with the MSDS sheet and one dealing with grandfathering chemicals. Another source said the chemical involved in the spill was a replacement for another toxic chemical which may have been after 1976. Depending on that, IMO, there may be major issues with how OSHA handles chemical awareness. I've seen other errors of a technical nature in media articles.

http://www.businessweek.com/article...-spill-mystery-who-runs-freedom-industries#p1


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

we are going to poison you and you are going to pay for it.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

More comes out as time passes. Now it seems the water company added carbon filters after they knew of the problem. For some reason that doesn't make sense. That brings up more questions. We do know beyond a shadow of a doubt the water was fouled and people in government are scrambling to CYA and point fingers.


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

The smell is so overpowering and gives us bad headaches. I was told there was another leak at the same company last Thursday, same chemical, but that it didn't reach the water supply this time. I can't confirm this as I haven't found anything in the news, but the smell is really strong again in Charleston.

We let our water drip all night and woke up to tons of greenish blue chemical crystals in the tub. Due to laundromat expenses, I tried washing clothes and ended up having to throw away some laundry as it was COVERED with the crystals, almost like a sticky glitter. 

For those suggesting rainwater, unfortunately it is not the best solution. The chemical smell is in the air and there are already people talking of how the rainwater has affected their animals. Of course you don't see this in the news, it's just friends talking to friends, or posts on FB or whatever. At this point, I'm not too trusting of the well water, either, as water evaporates, comes down as rain, the rainwater soaks into the ground and into the wells. . .

I want to move, but who will buy our property now? We can't afford to buy another property if this place doesn't sell. Who will pay for my laundromat expenses and ruined clothing? Who pays for all the gas and time we've spent trying to get and haul enough water to meet our minimal needs? So far, we the people are paying the price. 

And by the way, where is our nation's president? If this was Chicago or Mississippi, I'll bet he'd be here in a heartbeat, promising us the moon. Three hundred thousand people is a BIG number. WHY isn't homeland security all over this? WHY? Is this intentional? (As you can see, those of us affected by this are getting angry.)

This is WHY WV needs to elect people who actually LIVE here, who raise their families here, who are actually impacted by these crooked businesses!


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

davel745 said:


> we are going to poison you and you are going to pay for it.


Exactly, and my children are paying for it as well. Who knows what kind of health problems we may develop as a result of all this. We are just like lab rats.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Don't think you are forgotten with these troubles-you aren't. Being a westerner makes me acutely aware of water and it is so offensive that Justen Bieber gets more press than this issue. 
Has anyone ID'd what these crystals are? Sounds like it might be some reaction between the copper pipes and the chemicals in the water.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Here's kind of the rub ... and Becka ... I sympathize with your plight entirely. I live in the land of poisoned water wells.

These chemicals were already being used and released into the environment in smaller amounts. You certainly don't think that companies with the demonstrated ethics of Freedom Industries were trucking them in and trucking out every drop they used, right? I'm not sure what this particular chemical was used for, but I think there should be a valid concern over its very existence if it's this toxic.

The people of West Virginia are trading their coal and their environment for the nation's comfort and ease. Not a fair deal.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Ernie, the chemical spill happened at a dealers storage facility. The chemical is used in coal prep facilities. The waste water including chemicals go into an impoundment. Coal has always been a double edged sword for the states and communities where it is mined. 

I sat through a town hall meeting put on by our representative and it was mostly about coal, coal, coal, coal and did I mention coal? 

In this state 20,000 people work in coal mining and support. Coal hasn't been mined in this county since the early 90's. Natural gas represents 30,000 jobs. He never mentioned natural gas once.


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

Ernie, I think this stuff was leaking for a long time. They couldn't hide it anymore when the smell got so overpowering, it gave away their dirty little secret.

When something big like this happens, the media makes a big deal of it, and the politicians use the disaster to their best advantage. It's the old distract-the-people-while-we-cover-up-something-else. Yet, with this situation, we're hearing crickets chirping. I find that very concerning.

Terrorists have threatened to poison our water supplies here in the US. So why the silence?


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Darren said:


> Ernie, the chemical spill happened at a dealers storage facility. The chemical is used in coal prep facilities. The waste water including chemicals go into an impoundment. Coal has always been a double edged sword for the states and communities where it is mined.
> 
> I sat through a town hall meeting put on by our representative and it was mostly about coal, coal, coal, coal and did I mention coal?
> 
> In this state 20,000 people work in coal mining and support. Coal hasn't been mined in this county since the early 90's. Natural gas represents 30,000 jobs. He never mentioned natural gas once.


I think the worst possible thing is to live in any area which has a resource that the world craves.

They'll trade you for it, like the world is doing with West Texas and West Virginia, but if you decided your environment and your children's right to clean water and pure air was more important than today's cash, they would come and take it from you anyway.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

You just hit the biggie, Becka. The spill showed how vulnerable our drinking water supply is. No one wants that out in public. Not talking about it won't make the problem go away. So far I haven't seen that in any news article.

The other issue that isn't being addressed is the original chemical identified is an OILY alcohol. Remember the stuff didn't mix with water. It floats on top. That suggests flushing alone won't get rid of it in the short term.

They may have to use a detergent in the water to get the stuff out of the distribution system. The water company may already know that. They won't do that unless the state steps in. It should be obvious by now the state isn't up to the job.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Ernie, if you ever get the chance, read _Night Comes To The Cumberlands_.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Darren said:


> Ernie, if you ever get the chance, read _Night Comes To The Cumberlands_.


Thanks! It looks good! I'll have to see if I can find it in the library or otherwise scrounge up $12. It's not on Kindle, it looks like.


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

this stuff is used to clean coal? I wonder if there is a residual effect from the coal that has been washed with this stuff. were does the water/chemicals that wash the coal go?


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## tkrabec (Mar 12, 2003)

IMHO the companies claim of a proprietary formula became a moot point, once the chemical was spilled into the river.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

davel745 said:


> this stuff is used to clean coal? I wonder if there is a residual effect from the coal that has been washed with this stuff. were does the water/chemicals that wash the coal go?


The chemical on the coal, if any remains, would be burned along with the coal at a power plant. Waste water is stored behind dams on the coal mines' property.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Darren said:


> The chemical on the coal, if any remains, would be burned along with the coal at a power plant.


So in other words, it goes up into the air we breathe.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

No, you probably get the crap coming out of China or Mexico depending on which way the wind is blowing.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Darren said:


> No, you probably get the crap coming out of China or Mexico depending on which way the wind is blowing.


We live in a giant goldfish bowl. The same air you fart in today is the same air my grandchildren will be breathing some day.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

That's true! The same oxygen that circulated in your body at some point went through Julius Caesar's body. Can't say that for the mercury blowing in from China.


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

Ernie said:


> So in other words, it goes up into the air we breathe.


that is what I was thinking the combustion gasses.


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

Ernie said:


> We live in a giant goldfish bowl. The same air you fart in today is the same air my grandchildren will be breathing some day.


when Chernobyl went off it took only a week or so and the stuff was completely around the world. So your stinky stuff will be around to haunt you soon.


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