# I have a question about economic collapse!



## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

My question is this. In preparation of an event when banks fail and you can't retrieve your money from the bank is it better to have stored some money at home or should a person be buying gold as they are able and keeping it? 

I have noticed comments on some threads not to store money as it won't be worth anything in an economic collapse. However unless there is a total collapse of a country the public are expected to keep paying property taxes. So how does one prepare for this type of disaster? Where I live your home gets taken and sold in a tax sale if taxes are not paid for three consecative years.What happened to people's money in the banks a few years ago in the USA when banks closed? Was any of the money depositors had in the banks insured?


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## NamasteMama (Jul 24, 2009)

If there's an economic collapse I doubt paying taxes is going to be a big worry .


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

The answer to your question is yes to both. Let's just assume the economy is starting to erode quickly so that bank closures happen. At first, cash will be king. You want cash on hand. Probably for 6 months or more cash will rule. Then, if inflation really kicks in, cash will be worth much less. That is when precious metals like gold and silver will work best. They traditionally keep their store of value. For smaller transactions, junk silver (I favor dimes) will work well. Next would be silver ounces and then into gold. I'm not a lover of fractional gold so 1 oz is what I am talking about.

As far as taxes, I'm expecting that the gov folks, assuming they are even operating in times such as we are contemplating, will take whatever store of value they can get. Silver and gold will be high on the list after everyone has no cash or cash of no value.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

No one needs a bank learn to live within your means and pay cash or don't buy it . I left my bank after 9/11 and never looked back and in MY OPINION I can manage my own money and don't need anyone else to do it for me as far as Silver and Gold .Well...you can't eat it and if the banks suddenly went down so would every form of transportation especially trucking which brings food to your local store and that would stop pretty quick and prices would skyrocket over night .

So no banks No commerce ,No commerce means no work ! so suddenly those with food(which is the 1 thing none of us can do without ) become the rich and those with bills or coins become sudden consumers only ! so even if you have gold 1 oz coins what will a chicken be worth to you if your hungry ? and if you have the chicken do you have dinner or keep it alive for the egg a day ? 

AHHH !! HOMESTEADING AT IT'S BEST ! We as a nation are total consumers and the cities will empty fast once the food is gone so then what ?

Well ... you can have all the food stamps or cash you want but it would be useless so you have to learn how to barter for what you need and if you have no mechanical skills or tools or food .you are left with basic ditch digging labor as your only asset ,Sad isn't it ? CLUCK CLUCK BETTER THAN A BUCK !


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## doodlemom (Apr 4, 2006)

On Friday, September 13, 2013, The Communityâs Bank, Bridgeport, CT was closed by the Connecticut Department of Banking, and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) was named Receiver. No advance notice is given to the public when a financial institution is closed.

The FDIC has assembled useful information regarding your relationship with this institution. Besides a checking account, you may have Certificates of Deposit, a car loan, a business checking account, a commercial loan, a Social Security direct deposit, and other relationships with the institution. The FDIC has compiled the following information, which should answer many of your questions.

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/commbank-ct.html


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

If banks fail fdic will be as useless as fema , keep your money at home . No one will give a rats ... about you if a disaster such as total banking shutdown occurs ! food will become the new currency in about 3 days .


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

So if this collapse is severe enough, who-how-are "they" going to take your property.
They too have run out of fuel and are hungry . . ??
For the sheriff and his jack boots to sweep around the country side seizing property is going to take a lot of not-available fuel . . .??
And there you are on the road left with the shirt on your back.....
Seems to me that a whole big bunch of peoples are going to get a big hurt when trying to take away a person's roof. . . . . . . . . . . .


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

I'd agree....cash will be useless in a week or less if it looks like the banks are never going to open again. Gold and silver will come into play when, and if, some form of trade resumes, as money is a useful tool for storing excess labor/products.

*In the mean time, food, fuel, and real things will rule the day.*

BUT the above assumes a COMPLETE, LONG TERM, COLLAPSE. Something that has rarely happened ( never in US history ).

*The MORE LIKELY situation is exactly what is happening*...paper money simply becomes more and more crappy ( prices going "up"....the goods aren't worth more, it simply takes more worthless paper to buy them ), and folks, especially savers, fall more and more behind in purchasing power.

THAT is exactly the history of the US since Congress abdicated it's Constitutional responsibility to "coin money and regulate the value thereof" and subcontracted the job to the private banking cartel known as the Federal (it ain't) Reserve in 1913. One hundred years of making our currency worth less and less. Congress loves it because it allows them to borrow money today, and pay it back down the road with cheaper money.

And THIS is why gold, silver, and real goods ( if you can store them ) shine.....and why if you plan to save long term, you should look at precious metals. Not because "you can't eat them"....but because you can most likely USE THEM to buy something to eat. There are no guarantees in this world.....but 100 years of history says this is the route to go.


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## doodlemom (Apr 4, 2006)

Keeping money at home can be stupid too as all the criminals would be targeting preppers thinking they have loot.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

So hypothetically this happens , you have gold coins ,I want 10 for each chicken ,you eat for a very short time or not at all . winner winner chicken dinner !


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## doodlemom (Apr 4, 2006)

I agree money is best invested in self sufficiency. I've got the chickens, but now I'm slowly working towards cutting out the need to buy feed.


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

Best money spent RIGHT NOW is making yourself more (most) self sufficient ! If you can provide & protect you and yours........You will be way ahead of the game.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

doodlemom said:


> Keeping money at home can be stupid too as all the criminals would be targeting preppers thinking they have loot.


And how would they find it ? threaten to shoot me and they get nothing . 1st they would have to get past my home defense and I have a lot of home defense methods .


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

One of the curious aticles I read last year, stated that nine US states had laws on the books that they could take precious metals, ect. on tax bills, state fees, ect. Then I saw on the news that South Carolina was voting on a bill to allow the same thing. 

Is it just prudence, or do the lawmakers of this land know more than they let on?

As to gold and silver, it may be useful, but I don't think people study how to use it.
It's heavy, how you gonna move say $500,000 worth of gold and silver...How are you gonna hide it, protect it. It won't bark, bleat, or cackle if its bothered.
Many people will not find it as easy to deal with gold and silver as they think. A silver dollar of the right vintage, say 1922, can be valued on the internet sites for $22, local pawn shop $11, and still $1 at the Piggly Wiggly, Walmart,ect. 
Don't forget that the US goverment called in most gold in the 30's, I think, and didn't allow the average citizen to hold much gold till the 1970's.

I don't think anybody would be hurt to have several thousand dollars worth of silver, gold, even lead in the right configurations.....but I don't think gold and silver is a guaranteed, solve all problems solution that some folks make out.

I don't hate the thoughts of having plenty of gold and silver to the point that I wouldn't be willing to give some poor old, unwanted stray coins a home. They'd be alot cheaper to feed than all the cats and dogs folks like to dump out here!


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

During the Great Depression govenment continued to function and taxes had to be paid. Also, foreclosures still happened so mortgage lenders were still operating. If cockroaches can survive radiation from a nuclear bomb, I don't doubt that tax collectors and mortgage lenders will survive collapse of our financial system.

If possible, I would try to have at home enough cash to pay at least the next installment of real estate taxes and a couple months living expenses. Living on social security I don't have that option, but I do try to have some cash on-hand if only a $100.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

This has been a big question in my mind as well. What investments can be made that will protect value as well as be usable and tradable for a respectable value when they're needed?

While I appreciate the idea of having gold and silver, they're pretty much worthless to me unless there's someone who will give me something of value for them. Livestock can reproduce but are vulnerable to disease and need to be fed. Seeds can reproduce and grow crops as well and have their own vulnerabilities. Owning land is great... unless you can't afford to pay your taxes in which case you won't own your land for long but unless growing a cash crop, needs income to sustain. Cash is great as a short term exchange medium but maybe not so great to hold on to for a long time. Ammo might be a good thing to invest in but doesn't that go bad in time, too? (I really don't know the answer to that one?) 

Stocks can go to nothing. Artwork is worth what someone is willing to pay for it, which in tough times might be nothing. Cars and trucks might be worth something in utilitarian terms but are generally depreciating assets. Fuel tends to have a relatively short shelf life. 

Of course, any investment that can move one towards having to insert less cash into a particular area of life is a good thing. That might be in skills or equipment to provide for one's own needs. "A penny saved is a penny earned." But a person still needs spendable currency of some kind. 

I'm still struggling with this one in real and practical terms from the perspective of a relatively poor person.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Grumpy old man said:


> So hypothetically this happens , you have gold coins ,I want 10 for each chicken ,you eat for a very short time or not at all . winner winner chicken dinner !


So when WHAT happens ? 

Economic collapse ?

That ignores what IS happening. 

The long, slow slide.

You said you took all your money out of the bank after 9/11.

Did you invest it in something real, or put it in a cookie jar.


In 2001, you could buy a gallon of gas for under 2 bucks......today, the same gallon is over 3. Most other things have followed suit. That means the money you took out of the bank in 2001 will now buy 30-50-80% less while it sat in a cookie jar.....OR a bank.....

Gold on 9/12/2001 was $279/oz

( http://www.usagold.com/reference/prices/2001.html )

Gold this past Friday was $1327/oz


The cookie jar with gold in it is looking a whole lot better than the cookie jar with paper.


And by the way, if you want 10 gold coins of any size for a chicken, I'd shop elsewhere...


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## Stephen in SOKY (Jun 6, 2006)

With interest rates of 1, perhaps 2%, I fail to see the value (ETA: Benefit) of keeping savings anywhere that there's even a chance of not being able to access it whenever you wish.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Interest of 2% . . . .wow . . .where is that . . . .??

How about interest of less than 1%
Credit union interest of .06% . . . . . .wow-ee


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

The way things are going, I anticipate being charged a monthly fee to even have a savings account.

I think Bellyman has it right for us poor people. Invest in things that will aid us to be self-reliant as possible. Off the top of my head the following come to mind: Gardening equipment and seeds; canners, jars and lids; dehydrator; how-to books of all sorts; tools for carpentry, plumbing, etc.; sewing machine, thread, needles, fabric, etc.; guns, gun cleaning equipment, ammo. Along the same lines buying in today's dollars what we know will be needed in the future and that will not be damaged if properly stored such as blankets, sheets, towels, other linens and clothing. A lot of this stuff is currently available in thrift shops, but the harder the times the less useful stuff will be in thrift shops or garage sales. Even today I've noticed the quality of clothing in thrift shops has decreased drastically.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Ann-NWIowa said:


> During the Great Depression govenment continued to function and taxes had to be paid. Also, foreclosures still happened so mortgage lenders were still operating. If cockroaches can survive radiation from a nuclear bomb, I don't doubt that tax collectors and mortgage lenders will survive collapse of our financial system.
> 
> If possible, I would try to have at home enough cash to pay at least the next installment of real estate taxes and a couple months living expenses. Living on social security I don't have that option, but I do try to have some cash on-hand if only a $100.


 This is what worked during the Great Depression, or so says the oldest generation and they lived it.

In Argentina inflation was so bad that when you got paid you immediately turned the cash into rice or soap or something that would hold its value. That worked for them. 

For myself, I am going with the old saying of "Don't put all of your eggs in one basket"!


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Tangible assets. If 2 chickens are worth a bag of feed, but a year from now the feed has doubled in price - you'll still be able to trade 2 chickens for it because your chickens will be worth twice as much in fiat dollars.

TnAndy is correct, we're in a long, slow slide. I differ from him only in that I think it will increase soon in speed and angle.

Keep in mind, the bank you put your money in doesn't consider it your money. They consider it a loan from you, and have regulations in place to legally refuse to repay on your terms, only on theirs. In your mind you're a depositor, in theirs you are a creditor. The FDIC would be wiped out if one of the "too big to fail" banks failed, and the others would fall like dominoes. It could literally happen overnight - just like Lehman Brothers. Like I've said before, when you hear the words "bank holiday" it'll be too late.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Ozarks Tom said:


> I differ from him only in that I think it will increase soon in speed and angle.



No, I agree with you Tom....it does seems that the speed and angle are increasing. Here are a few charts that show that is the case:


#1. Money creation by the FED: Note how it goes almost vertical 
about 2008. Good sign the end is closer than the beginning.


#2. Decline in the US buck. Nearly constant value for the first 100-150 years, but once the FED got their hooks in us, been going downhill ever since.

#3. This one OUGHT to scare the whiz out of anyone.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Please please, go read the Cloward and Piven plan. Economic Colapse is the goal. There are too many variables to figure out how it will be done-but it IS the plan. For a reason-so go read.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

TnAndy, those graphs are truly scary. If someone can study them without losing sleep, they're beyond help. The timing shown of the spikes/declines makes it clear what's happening is no accident.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

They hold this big gathering every year that is somewhat a study in communities without money... It's called The Burning Man Festival... 

They barter everything there.. money isn't allowed (or supposed to be) People there barter everything... What use is gold and silver there? When you need things like water, food, clothing... then you may have what you need, to get what you need, bit if you wanted to trade me a pile of gold for water, I'm probably going to walk away.. gold would be useless in my eyes. Especially in the middle of a desert... 

In other words, it boils down to whether PM's are something others would want or not.. What I see happening, is the rich will want to trade gold, but the common man will trade things that are actually useful..


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Barter works to a point, without a doubt. But it does have limits. If money had not been such a valuable tool, it would not exist.

Some of the problems with barter:

1. *Lack of Double Coincidence of Wants:*

Barter transactions can be possible only when two persons desiring exchange of commodities should have such commodities which are mutually needed by each other. 

For example: I need 10ga shotgun shells. I go to "Barter Town", but nobody has any. I come home with whatever I had to trade and no barter takes place.

OR I grow a crop of watermelons and take a truck load of them to Barter Town, because we've eaten watermelon until we're sick of them. I manage to barter half of my truck load, because quite a few other folks have grown as well. What do I do with the other half ?

2. *Problem of Division:*

I have a cow to trade, and I need cloth, flashlight batteries and shotgun shells. What are the odds I'll find a person needing a cow with all those items ? Hard to take a cow to market, slaughter it right there and run around trying to barter fresh steaks to several different folks for what I need. People talk about not being able to make change for a one ounce gold coin, but how to you make change for a large item of barter ? ( cow, vehicle, etc )

3. *Lack of a Common Measure of Value:

*What is something worth in terms of something else ? Is a yard of cloth worth 6 AA batteries ? Without a common measure of value, it's clunky to do much in the way of trade.

4. *Lack of Store of Value:

*In barter economy, only commodities are used. Unfortunately, many commodities are perishable ( like my watermelons ), and thus come winter, or old age, I have less or nothing TO trade....I was not able to stick something commonly recognized as a store of value in my cookie jar, and pull it out for rainy days. THIS was one major reason the world didn't advance under the barter system......there was no good way to accumulate capital, and save labor expended today for use down the road.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

TnAndy your post is the reason i say folks with limited assets should put back some silver dines ,quarters ect . These folks should not worry about gold coins at this point . To folks just hanging on gold would be out .
:fussin:

Now for folks with excess paper investments ie bonds ,cd's and paper of any sort converting to gold coins in hand would be better than what they may get in the end . 
Point is if you can't touch it and it is somewhere other than your underground vault you don't own it :run:


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

just a few stats from my area.


gasoline the day Katrina hit...2005..was $1.17 at Exxon.

the day obuma took office....$1.89/gallon for gas in 2008

right now gas is $3.50ish 

shelled corn was $7.95/100 pounds in 2007....its $22 to 23 now...that roughly 3x increase in price in other words....300% increase in price...can you say hyper inflation.

back in the 80's i got 9% interest on simple passbook savings account

if the jack leg feds had let interest go up under normal ebb and flow it would have stalled the prices of homes and vehicles and other high dollar items.remember when truck prices started shooting up but they offered 0 interest on their in house loans.....they got their interest in the total price.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

sawmill jim my grandaddy who lived during depression always said if its not in your hand you dont own it or have it.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

anyone in debt has no reason doing anything but paying off debt...plain and simple....example...a debt free home...in my area a roof over your head to rent is about $500 a month and up.....so my simple home is paying me that a month that i dont have to get out and hussle to keep a roof over my head.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

elkhound said:


> anyone in debt has no reason doing anything but paying off debt...plain and simple....example...a debt free home...in my area a roof over your head to rent is about $500 a month and up.....so my simple home is paying me that a month that i dont have to get out and hussle to keep a roof over my head.


Exactly :happy: And if I had 20 or 30 years more payments I would lower my standards to a house or what ever I could afford . :run:


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Exactly :happy: And if I had 20 or 30 years more payments I would lower my standards to a house or what ever I could afford . :run:


yep....the most important daily survival strategy right now is being debt free and keep low monthly living expenses.


right now i refuse to spend my money.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

{interesting to a lot of guests - 256 at this time}


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Sawmill Jim said:


> TnAndy your post is the reason i say folks with limited assets should put back some silver dines ,quarters ect . These folks should not worry about gold coins at this point .


Agreed Jim. 

When I say "gold", I mean metals in whatever form you can afford, and silver dimes is certainly among them. I simply quote gold and what it has done since a twenty dollar bill and a twenty dollar gold coin were the same thing ( 1913 ).

Silver dimes from 1964 currently fetch about 1.60 in funny money.
That's a 1500% increase ( or loss of purchasing power ) according to coinflation.com

And for the record, I don't own much gold.....but got a bunch of 90% silver dimes/quarters/halves....for exactly the reason you state....my resources are limited, and I don't want the "how to divide a cow" problem should the SHTF.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

one thing many dont get is any investment is worthless unless you use it to make a profit.

i had a elderly friend had a stock was worth $25,000 i told her it had never been that high sell it.she said she was just going to leave it to her grandsons.she died...they sold it....it only brought $2300....so the two brothers got about $1150 each.....one is in dire straights and could have used it now.what a waste....that stock is still rock bottom.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

the stockmarket started rising when all baby boomers were working and saving and investing...wait till they start selling off....and theres no buyers.i have a friend who had a nice size holding in silver paper...he decided to sell ....BUT.... they could not find a buyer for about 4 hours...he lost his rear.

the stockmarket is all gambling plain and simple....a game of chance.....if nobody wants to play you cant get out of the game.


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

Money will hold some value. we will have to pay property taxes. If you have a mortgage still, I think you will be in deep water. It will be difficult to pay both taxes and mortgage with no job. I dont trust banks at all right now. Many banks have lent out over 80x's what they actually have, some as much as 500X lent out, we are talking trillions of virtual $$.. If TSHTF, people will run to the banks and the doors will be closed. There is not enough to cover what fdic claims they can. its just not physically possible. I keep monthly bill amounts in the bank, thats it. 

If I had extra cash to be stored, I would buy good land. Good land will probably be worth more then gold, you cant eat gold. 



elkhound said:


> anyone in debt has no reason doing anything but paying off debt...plain and simple....example...a debt free home...in my area a roof over your head to rent is about $500 a month and up.....so my simple home is paying me that a month that i dont have to get out and hussle to keep a roof over my head.


I agree elkhound, why anyone would take out a loan on a house that you couldnt pay with a minimum wage job, is beyond me. If you dont have the difference, you shouldnt buy it. If you cant pay it off within 10 years, dont buy it. 

I am sooo glad I dont have any debt but monthly living expenses. which at any moment, I can ditch all of them and just spring for property taxes and we could survive. I worry about what is to become of our economy. Its getting crazy out there. prices are insane. I also could sell things that I no longer use, fairly easy, not anymore. Like used lawn tractor etc. 

I am making a hand pump for my water well, in case of economic collapse and no electricity, I could still have my water. I have free gas from my gaswell and woodstove for back up heat. which the well also brings in a small royalty check. I think, I am ready any trouble. I figured my 75 acres of tillable land has to worth something to someone who needs to plant a garden, when the banks collapse and food is the most valuable commodity.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I hate looking at my 401K.. every time I turn around the investors steal another big chunk of it.. 

I had a friend that got tired of that so he pulled his out, lost the tax money from it, and bought gold with what was left.. He did that before gold went up, so he said he's managed to get most of the money back he lost..


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

elkhound said:


> yep....the most important daily survival strategy right now is being debt free and keep low monthly living expenses.
> 
> 
> right now i refuse to spend my money.


I think being debt free has always been an important strategy. Folks continuously in debt are always behind the eight ball when it comes to money.

We've borrowed money on occasion thru life....small amount on our first house we built (10k....paid off in 6 years), and the previous owner of our land financed it for us for 20 years ( we paid it off in 9 ), and some vehicles in the past ( again, paid them off as quick as possible ).

We've lowered living expenses a bunch by SPENDING money. 

The first spend was buying this place to start with 31 years ago....it was a daunting task to finance 75k on a combined income of 18k......no bank in the country would have lent us that on a hunk of raw mountain land. 

But by doing so, we got free of:

A water bill ( after spending the money to develop our spring and storage ), the sewer bill ( after spending money to put in a septic system ), our heating bill ( mountain of wood...literally....), our electric bill ( after spending the money to put in, and expand, our solar power ), much of our food bill, ( after spending money to fence for cows, pigs, chickens, build ponds for fish, fence gardens to keep deer out, plant orchard, build greenhouses ), house payment ( after spending the money to buy a sawmill to process our own wood, and then the two of us building the house ), and so on....

So spending money, on the right things, can save you a lot of money in the long run. Unfortunately, lot of people spend it on things I would personally not do......that "new car smell".....eating out often.....toys like boats, sports equipment, you-name-it......vacations.....and then look around and wonder WHY they are slave to some job they hate.


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

simi-steading said:


> I hate looking at my 401K.. every time I turn around the investors steal another big chunk of it..
> 
> I had a friend that got tired of that so he pulled his out, lost the tax money from it, and bought gold with what was left.. He did that before gold went up, so he said he's managed to get most of the money back he lost..


I did the same thing. Except I bought land. I was in college at the time also so, my penalty was smaller when you claim its for school expenses.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

farmgal said:


> Money will hold some value. we will have to pay property taxes. If you have a mortgage still, I think you will be in deep water. It will be difficult to pay both taxes and mortgage with no job. I dont trust banks at all right now. Many banks have lent out over 80x's what they actually have, some as much as 500X lent out, we are talking trillions of virtual $$.. If TSHTF, people will run to the banks and the doors will be closed. There is not enough to cover what fdic claims they can. its just not physically possible. I keep monthly bill amounts in the bank, thats it.
> 
> If I had extra cash to be stored, I would buy good land. Good land will probably be worth more then gold, you cant eat gold.
> 
> ...



preach it sister.....the beast is at the door but nobody wants to answer it.people dont want to hear whats going on because it changes their reality and the lies they/we have been told.....truth hurts.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

elkhound said:


> The stock market is all gambling plain and simple....a game of chance.....if nobody wants to play you cant get out of the game.


It's not only a game of chance....*it's a RIGGED game.* The whole purpose of the small investor to fleece them. The brokerage houses have made it a science. They see you coming like a car salesman senses a sucker.

If Las Vegas did what Wall Street does, they would go to jail.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

TnAndy said:


> I think being debt free has always been an important strategy. Folks continuously in debt are always behind the eight ball when it comes to money.
> 
> We've borrowed money on occasion thru life....small amount on our first house we built (10k....paid off in 6 years), and the previous owner of our land financed it for us for 20 years ( we paid it off in 9 ), and some vehicles in the past ( again, paid them off as quick as possible ).
> 
> ...



same thing here......i am nowhere what you have or doing but i will get there as time goes on.if not i am set up pretty sweet as it is.but i want it better than what it is right now if possible.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

simi-steading said:


> I hate looking at my 401K.. every time I turn around the investors steal another big chunk of it..
> 
> I had a friend that got tired of that so he pulled his out, lost the tax money from it, and bought gold with what was left.. He did that before gold went up, so he said he's managed to get most of the money back he lost..


In 2005, when silver was 5-6 bucks, I pulled all of my IRA's out ( I was self employed for years ), and put it in those silver dimes Sawmill Jim talks about. Paid the 10% penalty, the taxes due, and I sleep quite well at night now.  because silver is 4 times what I paid....and I believe it will go to 20 times what I paid, or more.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

elkhound said:


> same thing here......i am nowhere what you have or doing but i will get there as time goes on.if not i am set up pretty sweet as it is.but *i want it better* than what it is right now if possible.



Me too. That's why we keep working on stuff here. Building a new 20x40 hoop house now to expand our garden season. Got 26 Cornish X chicks in the brooder that will go in the freezer next month. Cutting firewood for 2 years from now. It never ends my friend.

Wife looked at me one day and said "WHEN is it we get to maintenance mode and quit building stuff ? ".......ahahahahaaaaa.....


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

If a piece of land goes up for sale here, which is very rare, it is sold in a week.


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

elkhound said:


> same thing here......i am nowhere what you have or doing but i will get there as time goes on.if not i am set up pretty sweet as it is.but i want it better than what it is right now if possible.


You will get there elk, your on the right path. Do it without debt. My house isnt done, I have no real cupboards, no window trim and still plywood floors (painted nicely with free paint tho...lol). Construction grade stair case...lol But I love love love not having a mortgage. the feeling is such a weight off my back. I have had mortgages since I was 19. It is how we get ahead. 

From here on out, I will never borrow again.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

farmgal said:


> We will have to pay property taxes.
> 
> Good land will probably be worth more then gold, you cant eat gold.


No, you can't eat gold.....but you can't eat paper money, credit cards, farmland, diesel fuel, or tractor tires either....but for at least 3,000 years, you could use gold and silver to BUY food.

Wanna know what attracted me to precious metals in the first place ?

Property taxes.

Like you, I figure we could pretty much let every other bill go, or do for ourselves, or do without if needed.....but that property tax bill simply doesn't go away. WAY too many folks in the 30's lost the family farm ( and thus, their means of doing for themselves ) because they couldn't come up with a piddly little amount of money for property taxes. THAT is why I bought some silver.....in hopes it would keep pace with inflation ( it has ), and if nothing else, the face value of it alone ( it's still US money )would let me pay our property taxes and we wouldn't loose the farm.




farmgal said:


> I figured my 75 acres of tillable land has to worth something to someone who needs to plant a garden, when the banks collapse and food is the most valuable commodity.


The problem with farm land is that you need CAPITAL to farm it. 

It's the old "you gotta HAVE money to MAKE money". You have to buy seed ( I'm not talking small garden where you save your own ), fuel, etc to farm 75 ac.


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

I have the capital. I could pay my taxes for a very long time here. A very long time, because I am not stuck in the consumer trap, buying every latest and greatest, got to have, bologna that comes my way, putting myself in a debt spiraled trap, that the market tricks people into. 

I have my hands in every cookie jar as far as shtf currency. Live stock, usable land, metals, fuel and $.

The bottom line is, no debt when it happens.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

my bottom line is no debt too....i cant do it..makes me sick on my stomach to even think about it.


you could have about 10 brood beef cows...a bit of corn and hay..chickens and pigs and live a nice life.corn could be a open pollinated to save ya seed back.just 2 or 3 acres would be icing for the livestock.

hightensil wire in my opinion is the only way to go with fencing as it lasts so long.i seen some i put in 23 years ago and not a speck of rust or tarnish to it...woven and barbed wont do that.


my homestead is more a giant garden...with mature forest surrounded by wilderness.i harvest much of my meat needs from wildlife.i just need a few details to keep fresh greens as late in winter as i can...cold frames etc...and a root cellar...i have dreamed for years about that..but i keep changing my needs and wants on it.one day soon i need to get on with it.right now it will be a cellar with a attached outside canning/butchering type room.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

one thing i think many miss is a 100 years from now nobody will remember you or anyone that knows you right now will be gone too...under normal events.

everyone on this entire forum will be gone...sorta sad..but it puts life in a better perspective....its the only life..live it best you can and free.....i am done doing what society says i need to do....i am sitting on the porch spitting sunflower hulls across the railing.....watchin deer...gardening...eating homegrown goods and watchin this crazy world pass me by.

the longest life is a short one......get out and live everyone.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

p.s. read my signature line.....lol


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

heres a on line friend i have talked with for years.he has a great ability to talk and express better than i can....enjoy.




[YOUTUBE]7dR3VDNuE-I[/YOUTUBE]


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## farmgal (Nov 12, 2005)

elkhound said:


> heres a on line friend i have talked with for years.he has a great ability to talk and express better than i can....enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did he ever get married then? Seems like a great guy. this is about how I look at life. Dont move to fast. We all want everything, right now. If the shtf I would have a hard time turning people away. When I think about my land for gardens, I would just let people use it. Make there own gardens. 

When at a cross road in life, my friends mother would always say, " will this decision matter 5 years from now" ?


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## sand flea (Sep 1, 2013)

elkhound said:


> the stockmarket started rising when all baby boomers were working and saving and investing...wait till they start selling off....and theres no buyers.i have a friend who had a nice size holding in silver paper...he decided to sell ....BUT.... they could not find a buyer for about 4 hours...he lost his rear.
> 
> the stockmarket is all gambling plain and simple....a game of chance.....if nobody wants to play you cant get out of the game.


Buying paper silver or gold, is exactly like buying stocks. That's why more people are intersted in the physical commodity. As far as making money, the purpose of buying silver coins or gold is to preserve money that wouldn't make enough in interest to keep up with inflation is a savings account or CD. And to keep it safe, from the risk of losing money - as in the stock market. It is still a long term strategy and only part of a larger financial plan and preparation.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

farmgal Remember in the case you are talking about taking in strangers could be your downfall .I have took in a few one homeless guy comes to mind . Thing being some are in the shape they are due to bad decisions ,or habits. There are some folks you can't watch close enough they just take and take . I know some folks take in $4,000 a month ,house and cars paid for other than that they have nothing to show for this money spent each month ,not even a lawn mower .:smack 

So i don't have a likable answer for those not preparing for hard times .


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## doodlemom (Apr 4, 2006)

elkhound said:


> anyone in debt has no reason doing anything but paying off debt...plain and simple....example...a debt free home...in my area a roof over your head to rent is about $500 a month and up.....so my simple home is paying me that a month that i dont have to get out and hussle to keep a roof over my head.


Property tax is rent.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Yep.

If you have a solution for owning property and NOT paying it, I'm all ears.


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## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

Well thankyou everybody for so many thought provoking replies and ideas to my question about economic collapse. You all have given me a lot to think about. 

As far as the self-sufficiency in regards to food we can make out eating what we grow from seed saved and forging or hunting. The wood lot is 19 acres and will last our life time if we can get to it five miles away! Both the horse and man are wearing out!

Our small farm is paid off and we are free of debt. We can do without electric in need be. The only thing we would need is money for property taxes. Some one mentioned the Great Depression of the 1930's and I remember my father-in-law saying how hard it was to pay the taxes on the farm during those years and he made arrangements to pay a little along until he got caught up.

The only place I know of without property tax is the Out Posts along Newfoundland/ Labador . We knew people from that far North and they told us the ground is so rocky it is hard gardening but still possible.People fence in their little gardens and let cattle run freely. There are few municipal services so tax money is not needed. They also viewed ice bergs from their living room window. With global warming melting the Artic that may have changed.

So at our age staying put and socking away silver coins or loonies [ $1's] or toonies [$2's} to pay taxes is probably best. Now I wonder if there is any real silver in dimes or quarters anymore? 
The Canadian one and two dollar coin are not gold. I really don't know what they are made of. I learned today when in a small store that recent toonies are lighter weight than the ones first issued. The older ones were 8 grams and the newer ones are only 6 grams. I know because I asked the clerk to weigh both coins. So they are being made cheaper now.

Canada has done away with pennies even though they are still legal tender. If an item is $9.95 or higher it is rounded up to $10. If the item is $9.94 or less it is rounded down to $9.90. They give only nickels, dimes and quarters now for change. There is talk of doing away with nickels next. So what would keep the government from eliminating other denominations of currency?

From all I have learned here from comments I think we will save ahead as we are able for taxes and a year's supply of the few other things we need to buy.

As for banks; most people here who have any monthly checks; use direct deposit because the postal delivery system is not very efficient. In most rural areas there is no longer home delivery but community mail boxes. Some are too far for older or physically challenged people to walk to so they use direct deposits to the bank or bank on line.

Thanks to everyone again for your input and have a good night! It is after midnight here!


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> Interest of 2% . . . .wow . . .where is that . . . .??


I was thinking the same thing! I recently closed the kids' accounts. They didn't have a lot in them & it wasn't earning much at all. I told them when they are older they can open a checking account if they wish.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

On the topic of property taxes, I can tell you from experience now that the more desperate a county becomes, the more lame-brained ideas they come up with to make you pay for.

The nearby town of about 1500 people just came up with the idea of a WATER PARK to draw in visitors. In Texas, in the middle of an extended drought, in a town more known for being the place to get gas while you're ferrying drugs between Waco and Abilene.

And then there's the bigger town in the county ... give free land, free utilities, and all sorts of tax breaks to lure in big business (and all impacting the taxpayer). They build million dollar parks and coliseums to try and attract these companies, and the companies (if they come at all) will show up for a few years, build a big ol' building, and then leave. You can drive through our manufacturing district and you'd think you were in post-apocalypse Detroit. None of the new companies ever think one of the old buildings are good enough ... no they want a brand new building.

So yeah ... dying local government is the biggest threat to you, not the federal government.


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

to backtrack to an earlier post, TnAndy, watermelon dries very nicely. It is supersweet and can be a treat.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

farmgal said:


> I have the capital. I could pay my taxes for a very long time here. A very long time, because I am not stuck in the consumer trap, buying every latest and greatest, got to have, bologna that comes my way, putting myself in a debt spiraled trap, that the market tricks people into.
> 
> I have my hands in every cookie jar as far as shtf currency. Live stock, usable land, metals, fuel and $.
> 
> The bottom line is, no debt when it happens.


Actually, I wish we were able to pay property taxes ahead of time with the stipulation that that's ALL they'll get until said paid period is up. I know it would never happen but it would be nice to be able to pay it ahead to the point where a person would not have to worry about property taxes any more, at least not in their lifetime. Dream on... (sigh)

I like your diversification approach with your hand in every cookie jar. Some "cookies" may do better than others.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

anniew said:


> to backtrack to an earlier post, TnAndy, watermelon dries very nicely. It is supersweet and can be a treat.



Nice to know.....thanks !


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## just_sawing (Jan 15, 2006)

Money is absolutely necessary. I am old enough to have sit on the knees of people that lost there farms in the depression because of just a few dollars. Please consider part of your emergency plan dollars that will pay your property taxes. If you don't believe it there are articles right now about people loosing their homes , one over a 47 dollar tax. 
In the 30s people that had money bought up the poor and when it turned around they were not hurt the poor was. 
1 if you are in debt on your land work what ever you have to do get it paid off.
2 If you have 10 years of Taxes in a jar you are better off. One of the quirky little laughs is even though the government is making the dollar worthless they still have to take it as payment.
Study disbursement crops if you have land and close quarter if you don't.
If you buy a fruit tree when they are on sell and plant it in the back forty the deer will love it and it is fruit not at the store. This goes for other eatables also.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Ok, you guys have got me thinking... maybe I should take at least a portion of my cash and convert it into something like some pre 1965 silver coinage. 

Now, the big question is, where to find such? I took a quick look online and it would take a very long time to list every ad for these kinds of dealers. I don't know if there's much I'm gonna find by buying rolls of coins at the bank and going through them one by one. 20 years ago, maybe. Today, I kinda doubt it. 

So where to you buy such coins? How do you figure out who's reputable and who's a crook? Do you look to diversify between say dimes, quarters and half dollars? Or even some silver dollars? Are you looking for "collector" type pieces or just something that's circulation grade? 

I know these are pretty "noob" type questions but I am starting to see more of the value of having at least some of this type of currency around.

Thanks for any input, and if it's maybe not something you'd want to reply to in public, feel free to PM me.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

Bellyman said:


> Ok, you guys have got me thinking... maybe I should take at least a portion of my cash and convert it into something like some pre 1965 silver coinage.
> 
> Now, the big question is, where to find such? I took a quick look online and it would take a very long time to list every ad for these kinds of dealers. I don't know if there's much I'm gonna find by buying rolls of coins at the bank and going through them one by one. 20 years ago, maybe. Today, I kinda doubt it.
> 
> ...


My first recommendation is to find a local coin dealer.

Beyond that, here are a few places to consider.

http://www.apmex.com/category/528/silver-coins-90-40-35

https://online.kitco.com/bullion/completelist_USD.html#silver

You can usually expect to pay about $2-3 over spot. Face is running at about a 18 to 1 ratio.

You aren't looking for things with collector value, just 90% silver. I favor dimes and quarters. If you are thinking about full ounces, think about US Silver Eagles.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

logbuilder said:


> You aren't looking for things with collector value, just 90% silver.



Often referred to as "junk silver"......all the collector coins have been pretty much picked thru, and left the common dates/poor condition coins. You're buying JUST the silver value. Those are pre-1965 dimes/quarter/halves.

Kennedy Halves from 1965-1971 (think that's right) are 40% silver, but there is less of a market for them, and you should pay less for the silver in them.

I'll second APMEX.....decent prices and good service.

Good place to check what the metal content of coins are currently worth ( the "melt" value ) is:

http://www.coinflation.com/


It should REALLY say something about our money system that a dime from 1964 is now worth 18 times as much as then.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Forget about gold and silver grow food and as much as you can when shtf because all those who horded coinage will need to eat and have to pay you $$ to do it . seeds while cheap now maybe worth $$ later on Sure everyone needs as much cash as possible but food stores will be the new "GOLD"


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Grumpy old man said:


> Forget about gold and silver grow food and as much as you can when shtf because all those who horded coinage will need to eat and have to pay you $$ to do it . seeds while cheap now maybe worth $$ later on Sure everyone needs as much cash as possible but food stores will be the new "GOLD"


Thing is once one has a say a year or two of food in their house and all the garden gadgets known to man should their house blow away it's all gone . :help:

For some of us we are well stocked and should one have to :runforhills: you can't tote a ton of food . Three people with money belts can carry several coins . But yes food first with more than one location if you can . But some folks have a ton of money in stocks and such junk paper it an't funny .Not everyone is poor as me but even I have some coins and lots of lead to try and keep them . :help:


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Bellyman, believe it or not, my boys buy rolls at the bank occasionally and about 50% of the time they find at least one, usually 2. Lots of folks using those coing counting machines to pay for groceries, especially last spring.

Matt


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Grumpy old man said:


> Forget about gold and silver grow food and as much as you can when shtf because all those who horded coinage will need to eat and have to pay you $$ to do it .


Or they will simply shoot you and take it.





Grumpy old man said:


> seeds while cheap now maybe worth $$ later on Sure everyone needs as much cash as possible but food stores will be the new "GOLD"


I've got seeds from 10 years ago. Germination rate: about zero.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

TnAndy said:


> Or they will simply shoot you and take it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Andy not everyone is weak or vulnerable . All I can say is let them try !


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

vacuum sealed seeds should last longer.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Grumpy old man said:


> Forget about gold and silver grow food and as much as you can when shtf because all those who horded coinage will need to eat and have to pay you $$ to do it . seeds while cheap now maybe worth $$ later on Sure everyone needs as much cash as possible but food stores will be the new "GOLD"


I wasn't planning to dump every $ I have into silver. But I've been thinking it might be a good thing to have a little of the real thing on hand.

I do think you're right that food is gonna be a majorly hot item (no pun intended) in the future. Being poised to "fill a need" there could be a nice source of income. 

Seeds are good too, something like your own "seed bank" (pun intended) could have more than just monetary value. Keeping them in the deep freeze is one option for keeping them a little longer and still have decent germination after several years.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Vacuum sealed and in the freezer.......................


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Grumpy old man said:


> Andy not everyone is weak or vulnerable . All I can say is let them try !


They will try....bet on it. And you have to sleep sometime. Or go out to the garden or woodpile or whatever. If a president can be shot, I'm under no illusion the rest of us can't be.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

TnAndy said:


> They will try....bet on it. And you have to sleep sometime. Or go out to the garden or woodpile or whatever. If a president can be shot, I'm under no illusion the rest of us can't be.


You are correct .:sing: Thing is don't be an easy target I'm poor and look poor tooeep: In a bad situation a lot of folks around here look to be an easier target with more goods .

Also this house is built out of those older cement blocks and we live on the second floor with a great view also got a 110 lb German Shepard that lives with us :sing:


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

logbuilder said:


> My first recommendation is to find a local coin dealer.
> 
> Beyond that, here are a few places to consider.
> 
> ...


Prices subject to change, without notice.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

If the money is NOT safe where it is, move it.


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

Sawmill Jim said:


> You are correct .:sing: Thing is don't be an easy target I'm poor and look poor tooeep: In a bad situation a lot of folks around here look to be an easier target with more goods .
> 
> Also this house is built out of those older cement blocks and we live on the second floor with a great view also got a 110 lb German Shepard that lives with us :sing:


Jim talk TnAndy into giving you a view from his Tower. Simply breath taking.


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

Keep your seeds in a freezer. I planted collard seeds this year that my father saved before he died in August of 1992. No 100 percent germination, but had enough to plant nearly 3 100' rows. If a freezer isn't an option, the as cool and dry a place as you can.
Seeds with lots of oil like soybean and peanuts don't hold as well, even in a freezer.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Tarheel said:


> Jim talk TnAndy into giving you a view from his Tower. Simply breath taking.


You mean my internet tower at the top of the moutain ?





















Or the little sitting place down at the house ?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Dad would love to have that tower and antenna he would like on it.
And that little sitting place is quite nice.

Nice place you have there.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Thank you. We're 30 years into a 50 year project. 

My goal is the NEXT guy not have to do too much.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

TnAndy,

Can you tell me more about your internet tower? I have WildBlue and would be interested in alternatives.


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

Andy I was talking about the tower at the house. My wife still talks about the creek running down below as we sat out there.

There's no doubt that the antenna tower adds the pucker factor though. 

In all seriousness you and MsTnAndy have a beautiful place and are gracious host.


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## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

TnAndy said:


> You mean my internet tower at the top of the moutain ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love your home here especially the little sitting place and tower. Great work!


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## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

Everyone's input is very interesting and helpful. Now I have another question about money. If you have money in a safety deposit box in a bank and the bank folds and closes suddenly what happens to all the things in the safety deposit boxes whether money or important papers? Do they let people in to collect from their safety deposit boxes?


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

logbuilder said:


> TnAndy,
> 
> Can you tell me more about your internet tower? I have WildBlue and would be interested in alternatives.


For the first 8 years it was up, I had a wireless connection with a local provider....radio link from one of their towers on down the country, and then a wireless link to my house. I had to build a mile of road up the mountain, then with their help, we put up the tower, and I ran an electric line up thru the woods ( 2250' straight up the side of the mountain ) for a power supply. 

No way to get concrete up there, so for a base, I built a "rock box" out of scrap tubing and 3" pipe, lined the inside with chain link fence, and filled it full of rocks ( of which there was no shortage ). The tower base pivots on one of the pipes, and we tilted the first 50' up ( a surplus aviation tower from local airport ), then lifted the 10' sections of lighter tower up with a gin pole and built it up as we went. It was an interesting project !










The view from the top is fantastic !












Anyway, the local ISP went downhill business wise, and I had to get DSL from the local phone company. Big ads in newspaper "19.95/mo FOR 5MB SERVICE".....yeah....if you're right in town. Out here, they charge 29.95/mo for 500k service ( 1/10 the speed ).

Then I sold some property next door to an internet geek that works from home, and he needed lot better service than DSL. 

SO, he got his company to spring for a cable connection (and the radio equipment) over the mountain at a buddy of mine's house, we put a modem and radio link from there ( about 2 miles, line of sight ) up to the tower, and beam it back down to the valley on our side...now we have 30MB service, and best of all, mine is free ! That's me up the tower couple years back putting new antennae up for the cable link.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

lmrose said:


> Everyone's input is very interesting and helpful. Now I have another question about money. If you have money in a safety deposit box in a bank and the bank folds and closes suddenly what happens to all the things in the safety deposit boxes whether money or important papers? Do they let people in to collect from their safety deposit boxes?


WELL, so far, when a bank collapses in the US, it's always on a Friday, the FDIC takes over Friday night, and Monday morning it reopens with a new name....so there has been no loss of service, or access to a box probably since the depression.

I personally do not, and would not, have a safety deposit box because I subscribe to the theory "if you don't hold it, you don't own it"....

But I can see the day coming when all banks look like this:

From the "Ruins of Detroit"
http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/2011/02/07/captured-the-ruins-of-detroit/2672/


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

Yep, popped the question to a big wig at a Bank function yesterday. I ask him could we survive (FDIC) if we lost more banks ? After he squirm and tuned 3 shades of red he gave me an honest answer. NO, if we loose a couple of big banks we are toast.

Spend your money on your OWN lock box or safe.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

That is what a lot of the 85 billion/month the FED is printing is doing....propping up dead banks. Between that, and buying about 1/2 the new federal debt, they simply can't quit.


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## logbuilder (Jan 31, 2006)

TnAndy said:


> That is what a lot of the 85 billion/month the FED is printing is doing....propping up dead banks. Between that, and buying about 1/2 the new federal debt, they simply can't quit.


Slight issue with that.

Currently the fed is doing two things. They are buying mortgage backed securities generally from Freddie or Fannie and treasury bonds. Their goal is threefold (IMHO).

1. Hold down interest rates on Treasury bond auctions. This is huge if you consider what would happen if treasury bill interest rates went to 4 or 5%. The deficit and debt would both climb. Heaven forbid a failed auction.
2. Hold down underlying costs of housing backed instruments so as to hold down the lending rate on homes. This is designed to stimulate the economy via housing.
3. Make holding treasury instruments less attractive which tends to push investors into the equity market.

My issue with what you said is that I don't think 'dead banks' are the target.


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## just_sawing (Jan 15, 2006)

lmrose said:


> I love your home here especially the little sitting place and tower. Great work!


That is beautiful. What are you using the lower concrete part for. I was thinking a reload area would be nice.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

A few years ago the FDIC did a "stress test" on all the banks. A few were found insolvent, but the huge majority were deemed sound. The whole thing was a charade. There are enormous omissions not showing on their balance sheet due to the housing market. In some cases the banks have delayed foreclosures so as not to show them as bad loans, as in showing a $500,000 loan as still viable vs in default - that's a swing of $1 million alone. Also, they're carrying foreclosed properties at old inflated values, rather than at today's market value. The FDIC can't push the issue or they'd find themselves closing thousands of banks, including all the Too Big to Fail.

As to a safety deposit box, if the bank were ethical enough to let you in to open it, you better have armed guards with you to get home with your valuables. And once there, a really good defense against those you saw you leave the bank.

Boy, I'm really a downer today. Well, every day.


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

the fdic cannot provide enough real cash to cover every account at every bank . I just don't see it as being possible . You will hear tough luck if it ever did happen


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

Here you go, start at the bottom around 2000 and work your way up. It really did not start until 2008 and then all heck has broken loose since then. They either closed or been bought out but still basically 

failed. http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Ozarks Tom said:


> A few years ago the FDIC did a "stress test" on all the banks. A few were found insolvent, but the huge majority were deemed sound. The whole thing was a charade. There are enormous omissions not showing on their balance sheet due to the housing market. In some cases the banks have delayed foreclosures so as not to show them as bad loans, as in showing a $500,000 loan as still viable vs in default - that's a swing of $1 million alone. Also, they're carrying foreclosed properties at old inflated values, rather than at today's market value. The FDIC can't push the issue or they'd find themselves closing thousands of banks, including all the Too Big to Fail.
> 
> As to a safety deposit box, if the bank were ethical enough to let you in to open it, you better have armed guards with you to get home with your valuables. And once there, a really good defense against those you saw you leave the bank.
> 
> Boy, I'm really a downer today. Well, every day.


One man's downer is another man's realist.

The FDIC is screwed, as is the whole banking system. The only thing holding the whole thing afloat is the sustained disbelief in the mathematical realities that bankers, the government, and the bank customers all hold together. Like 3 men in a sinking boat all wishing real hard that the water will stop coming in. You can maintain the fiction until the cold, dark waters close over your head.


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## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

The responses answer my question about safety deposit boxes! I guess the safest ones are those a person can put their hands on at any time and only that person knows where it is located! I appreciate all the input about money matters and banks. Neither of us here have much experience with money .Nor are we good at understanding the mammoth money instituions. However if anyone needs to know how to live good without much money we can help! It is only the modern world we have trouble with! Have a good evening everyone. The chickens are soon closing their eyes and so am I. 5:30 am comes early.


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## John_Canada (Aug 17, 2013)

I think to me the answer is pretty simple. The one thing that would be worth the most in our area is fuel to heat yourself. This would come in the form of treed property but even that I do not see as a guarantee against 10 million people trying to cut down my trees to live. I also do not see protecting myself against that onslaught. So the most precious metal I can see is gun metal, brass and lead and a chainsaw/axe. With those few tools I can probably sustain my family anywhere. That is in the case of total collapse which I do not believe I will ever see... our economic base is still there (people working/trading for a dollar whatever that dollar is). In this case the most valuable thing I can buy now is survival and sustainability skills as I see those as being the most sought after versus a stock broker or computer programmer. <btw, just knowing what plants you can eat or not or how to make potable water can mean difference between surviving a collapse or not. most people do not realize there is more food from veggies/fruit in 50 miles diameter from you to feed a city and people never even think twice about that.>


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## Andy Nonymous (Aug 20, 2005)

Part of the impending HUGE (and obviously vastly underestimated) problem as I'm beginning to see it, is *the black hole effect* of the not just possible, but impending US economic implosion, and this won't just be 'temporary' as the dot com or housing bubble, or regional as in Mexico, or Argentina, or Zimbabewe, because so much global commerce is based on the usd. The debt at the core is now so dense, that once we cross the event horizon, there will be no pulling out. 

Why not a rebound as in previous downturns? In part, the us bal of trade has been unsustainable for decades, it's public and private debt is so far leveraged and intertwined with other international investment banks, that the only 'acceptable' way out for the puppeteers is more ink that in reality only fuels more speculation benefiting the top hundredth%, who will without hesitation leave all the rest in the deep hole far below the "asssets" in their gilded outhouse, if you get my drift. All those left holding paper, will be left "holding the bag", and the race is already on to get out of US paper while there are still suckers, I mean BUYERS of the debt. As Ernie noted, a failed auction could easily grease the slope.

The only economy I distinctly see pulling away from the edge is the Yuan, and to a lesser extent, the Rupee and Ruble, whose g-ments are buying (with their usd) gold and silver in huge quantities, but I would lay odds you don't have those currencies in your pocket, or have anyone to accept them at face value in trade (this excludes coin sharks who get a 'cut' of the trade with the $'s, both ways). Even people in India, or in China, or Iraq still accept the usd as part of their economy. Why not? There are hundreds (or perhaps thousands) of trillions worth in print, and more every day! The wise usually trade them for things of real value, like seeds, tools, brass, lead, solid copper(s), nickel(s), silver(s) or other practical things that have intrinsic value at the least, or that can be leveraged against the paper that is guaranteed to lose value at an increasing rate. 

The consumerists usually trade their paper for things that go up in smoke (like all the oil (in all forms) that goes into their SUV), or that go off to the trash in short order (cheap products poorly made (like clothing and plastic items), or of planned obsolescence (like phones)). By and large, people just can't (or won't) see how much it will cost them to consume more than they are willing or able to produce, and to 'buy cheap' to compensate for what keeps leaking out of the domestic economy. Eventually, there won't be enough in the system to make it work at all. Meanwhile, our govs make busy by spending on things that go 'boom', keeping the mil economy healthy, keeping disposable people of the world in strategic places in a state of war, and keeping everyone else on edge. (where is the "circle the drain" icon?)

All this does not bode well. When so many people lose the one thing they have more trust in*** than probably even their spouse, the manure will be far deeper, for far longer than nearly all but the most apocalyptic foresee, but for reasons I believe that even most of them tend to miss. People want simple answers, and this is a very complicated set of issues that make it hard to predict, especially time wise and velocity wise, even if the resulting end direction is abundantly clear.

*** unless you have complete and abiding faith in your Creator AND no need for currency, you likely have more blind (unthinking) faith in the 'value' of the currency in your pocket than anything else, and in reality, it's faith very misplaced. When that trust is breached, hell shall have no fury as that of a people badly shafted, and the spillover will not be easily quelled, or contained. gre:


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

WHo dis?

Book of Andy 3:1

Dat be you ?

Even google has pretty much zero refs


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## credee (Aug 17, 2013)

uh why would you STAY where it's really cold, if shtf? All that risk, effort and exposure, for what, when you could move a few hundred miles and avoid all of that? Know what the record is for crossing the US on a bicycle? 8 days. 400 miles per day. If things are already frozen when shtf, what you want is a small hole in the ground, with lots of insulation and reflective Space Blankets. Fighting thru snow to get ice, melting it for water, cutting and hauling wood, leaving "sign" of your presence, sending up smoke signals visible for 20 miles or more, making noise, etc, with desperate, armed people everywhere? not me.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

credee said:


> uh why would you STAY where it's really cold, if shtf? All that risk, effort and exposure, for what, when you could move a few hundred miles and avoid all of that? Know what the record is for crossing the US on a bicycle? 8 days. 400 miles per day. If things are already frozen when shtf, what you want is a small hole in the ground, with lots of insulation and reflective Space Blankets. Fighting thru snow to get ice, melting it for water, cutting and hauling wood, leaving "sign" of your presence, sending up smoke signals visible for 20 miles or more, making noise, etc, with desperate, armed people everywhere? not me.


I will be moving further north. Lots of advantages for being up north. Ask the Canadians.


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## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

Canada is further North but with about a tenth or less of the population of the USA. The warmest places in Canada during winter are the Southren parts of British Columbia and Southren Nova Scotia.Not everyone can move to the South in the USA because of immigration laws. Those who live in Canada have advantages and disadvantages in the event of a shtf situation just as the USA as advantages and disadvantages. Sometimes there isn't much choice for where a person lives and they need to learn to survive where they are.


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

I'm more apt to invest in silver coins. No one knows what an ingot of gold is worth in an economic hardship. People may not want it. If you have silver coins ..... a silver dollar is still a dollar in any economic time and will buy 'stuff' you need. A hand full of silver quarters is spendable and tradable. In a time of economic hardship, no one will be carrying around with them the Blue Book values of gold and silver ......
Ohio Rusty ><>


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Ohio Rusty said:


> I'm more apt to invest in silver coins. No one knows what an ingot of gold is worth in an economic hardship. People may not want it. If you have silver coins ..... a silver dollar is still a dollar in any economic time and will buy 'stuff' you need. A hand full of silver quarters is spendable and tradable. In a time of economic hardship, no one will be carrying around with them the Blue Book values of gold and silver ......
> Ohio Rusty ><>


And I will want 20 pieces of silver for 1 chicken ! Maybe more ! Money in any form will be worthless to those who hold food and shelter !:nanner: your $500.00 specialized 9mm pistol is worthless unless you have an ample supply of ammo which I will sell you for 100 pieces of silver for 20 shells ....Get the picture ?


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

I won't sell or trade guns and ammo to anyone as they might comeback after dark and use them against you. It would be easy for someone to give you silver for ammo ...then a few hours later shoot you ..take back their silver, the rest of your ammo and all your chickens.

We all know the value of dimes, quarters and dollars ..... People will understand their face value for trade .... not bullion value. I can take 8 silver quarters to the local store and get a half gallon of milk and a loaf of bread if necessary .... That is 2 bucks. A lump of collectable metal is pretty worthless because we don't know the face value. 

If I'm gonna trade with someone ..... I'll give them water, warm clothes or toilet paper. This world is pretty useless without toilet paper ..... 
Ohio Rusty ><>


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

Ohio Rusty said:


> I won't sell or trade guns and ammo to anyone as they might comeback after dark and use them against you. It would be easy for someone to give you silver for ammo ...then a few hours later shoot you ..take back their silver, the rest of your ammo and all your chickens.
> 
> We all know the value of dimes, quarters and dollars ..... People will understand their face value for trade .... not bullion value. I can take 8 silver quarters to the local store and get a half gallon of milk and a loaf of bread if necessary .... That is 2 bucks. A lump of collectable metal is pretty worthless because we don't know the face value.
> 
> ...


Shtf and your going to a "store "?? for a 1/2 gallon of milk and a loaf of bread for $2.00 ? who's going to be selling it ?


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

The local county tax collector isn't going to take chickens for your property taxes ......


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

TripleD said:


> The local county tax collector isn't going to take chickens for your property taxes ......


 :umno: I imagine I will have plenty of coinage from starving city folk !


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## Nate_in_IN (Apr 5, 2013)

TripleD said:


> The local county tax collector isn't going to take chickens for your property taxes ......


I wouldn't be so sure. My county accepts grain as payment for property taxes. I believe it is an allowance in the tax code which goes back to the great depression.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Nate_in_IN said:


> I wouldn't be so sure. My county accepts grain as payment for property taxes. I believe it is an allowance in the tax code which goes back to the great depression.


 I wish my county would take pigs cause I got 30 about 80lbs I cant get sold. :happy2:


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

TripleD said:


> I wish my county would take pigs cause I got 30 about 80lbs I cant get sold. :happy2:


Send me a pm and how much you want and what you have ,I have lots of room for a bunch more .


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## sdnapier (Aug 13, 2010)

Grumpy old man said:


> And how would they find it ? threaten to shoot me and they get nothing . 1st they would have to get past my home defense and I have a lot of home defense methods .



Ok, so please share....where did you get those wonderful signs?


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## Grumpy old man (Aug 6, 2013)

sdnapier said:


> Ok, so please share....where did you get those wonderful signs?


I made some, I found an online sign company that will let you design whatever you want and then they fabricate them and send them to you on tin ,plastic, they even make peel and stick glass stickers


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## bigjon (Oct 2, 2013)

grumpy is correct,i'm not stocking money.i'm stocking food-i'm a grower.building my own 6'x6' walk in cooler to help survive.and yes ammo for my familys protection.


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## doodlemom (Apr 4, 2006)

Grumpy got banned too? Was funny the last thing typed was get off the computer and go out lol.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

I think some here are making a mistake in thinking that total economic collapse also means collapse of government. Just the opposite will likely be true. Look at Greece as an example, their banks failed and YES they still have to pay their property taxes and the government will only accept government issued currency as payment.

If you think that the same government who issues currency and uses it as it's greatest tool to control the economy and the people are going to suddenly turn around and accept gold coins as property tax payment you are nuts.

Many talk about chickens and other livestock being more valuable in trade than gold and other things but without the land to raise them on you wont have them long. And in order to keep the land you are going to have to have US dollars to pay your property tax or your OUT.

So I'd say having cash on hand to pay your taxes for a couple years at the very least is essential. Beyond that, I'd keep reserve wealth in gold to hold value. This assumes that you are already somewhat self reliant and will be trying to hold on to your property and way of life when TSHTF.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around the early 20th century folks....many hard-working and solid people, who let the government create and then capitalize on the crisis, to the end that many lost their land to the world class banking power and hard asset grab......

Fool me once........


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

bigjon said:


> grumpy is correct,i'm not stocking money.i'm stocking food-i'm a grower.building my own 6'x6' walk in cooler to help survive.and yes ammo for my familys protection.


bigjon:

I've stocked plenty of food, and I'm definitely a grower, and I just finished cutting up a deer that hung last night in my 6x6 home built walk in cooler that I shot yesterday and is going in canning jars as soon as the soup stock finishes boiling.

IF one can only afford one route.....go with the above. But if you can afford to stock some real money as well, I suspect down the road you'll be more glad you did than not.


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## sss3 (Jul 15, 2007)

Forerunner, I'm thinking people going thru that dark time, were clueless. They had no social media access. If they could afford a newspaper, which I doubt they could, that would be their only access. Plus, if they were country folks how would they get newspapers. I'd think; in town, there would be political talk. But, how accurate would that be?


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

Sandra Spiess said:


> Forerunner, I'm thinking people going thru that dark time, were clueless. They had no social media access. If they could afford a newspaper, which I doubt they could, that would be their only access. Plus, if they were country folks how would they get newspapers. I'd think; in town, there would be political talk. But, how accurate would that be?


^^Agreed. It is unlikely that the average simple people of that time had ever even known what was going on and doubtful that they would even understand the issues if they did. My grandparents were born in the early part of the century, you think they had any concept of the evils of central banking? They were simple, uneducated working people with little or no access to even one tenth of the information that is available to people today.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Today, even now that people have access to all this media and information, most still don't get it, and most don't care.. All they know is they have a job, they are paying their bills, and their house is as big and pretty as the neighbors... 

It's a shame that's good enough for them, and they aren't all gathering together to try and do something about it... Instead they all go and blindly vote down one side of a two column page, and call it good enough..


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

simi-steading said:


> Today, even now that people have access to all this media and information, most still don't get it, and most don't care.. All they know is they have a job, they are paying their bills, and their house is as big and pretty as the neighbors...
> 
> It's a shame that's good enough for them, and they aren't all gathering together to try and do something about it... Instead they all go and blindly vote down one side of a two column page, and call it good enough..


Thats true, but I put most of it down to the massive disinformation campaign launch by our government run media. I think there has been alot of change due to the freedom of information through the internet, but most people ( especially the older set ) still trust what they hear on their propaganda station of choice.

IMO the only actual media is coming from some alternative sources via the web. All major news outlets ( yes including Fox ) are selling the same fiction.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Ya know, a person doesn't really need the media to realize the rich and powerful are only in it for their selves... 

Only the naive and blind would believe the politicians and company CEO's were in this game to help everyone out.. 

So long as people feel they aren't being effected too much, then they just let everyone else keep doing what they want.. Problem is, that's how they keep taking more and more, and it's going to come to a point they're going to take the rest because we've allowed it to get to that point.. 

Look at all this spying.. .people aren't smart enough to realize what it's really about.. It has nothing to do with keeping us safe, but for some reason, they don't get it's to make the powerful more powerful.. 

It's doesn't take a college degree to figure that out, but then again, maybe that is the problem.. too many people with college degrees... I pretty much see those as brain washing certificates.... You've been properly assimilated..


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