# Could this work, breed a frizzle silkie to a heavy cochin hen?



## Dazlin (Nov 26, 2007)

I used to keep silkies with heavy breeds, and the roo's surely tried to get the job done. Although they often fell off sideways. I've never tried hatching anything from them. So now..I'm thinking...what if I put a nice pretty frizzle silkie boy, with a few cochin hens?? I think I would love if I can get a frizzle cochin! 
I understand, maybe the first hatch would be banty's?? Then if I breed those to pure cochins the breed can get bigger??
Anyway...you think this could happen? Let me know your thoughts!


----------



## DayBird (Jul 26, 2004)

It could certainly work. If your goal is to have standard sized large fowl cochins that are frizzled, it would, however, be better to start with a frizzled cochin bantam rooster. That way you won't have to deal with issues like comb, fifth toe, dark skin, turquoise earlobe and crest.

Working with what you've got, though, you could end up with some pretty standard sized sizzles. I'm sure someone, somewhere is working on some, but I haven't heard about them yet. A sizzle has all the attributes of a silkie but without the silkie feathers. They have either straight or frizzled feathers but still keep the walnut comb, fifth toe, dark skin, turquoise earlobe and crest. The genes that cause the feathers to be silkie is a recessive gene and should be easy enough to breed against.

Frizzle is not a breed in this country, but just a mutation causing the feathers to be fluffed up and curly. The most common frizzles are cochins, of course, but they also have been bred into most bantams including polish, seramas, rosecombs and wyandottes. The gene that causes the frizzling is a dominant gene and is easy enough to combine into other breeds.


----------



## Patrick (Sep 13, 2011)

Yes, it would work, but other than intentional terminal cross production animals made to take advantage of hybrid vigor, why would you want to knowingly create a mongrel? Purebred frizzled Cochin largefowl already exist. Why reinvent the wheel?

Frizzle is recognized by both the American Poultry Association and the American Bantam Association. It may occur in any recognized breed. See the Standard of Perfection or the Bantam Standard for more information. There is no such thing a sizzle breed, anywhere. It is a mongrel.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

The feathering of a silkie and a frizzle is completely the opposite.
The silkie is a breed. The frizzle is a feather type.
You can either have a silkie or a frizzle, you can't have a silkie frizzle.


----------



## Dazlin (Nov 26, 2007)

Thanks everyone!
Patrick, I'm not looking to create a mongrel. My hopes are to take off with a frizzled cochin, then breed that to another pure cochin. I'm just saying, for now, all I have to work with is a frizzle that was crossed from a silkie.
I like the idea from Daybird, to wait till I get a frizzled cochin, and breed that , possibly eliminating the blue ears, black skin, and 5th toe. Thanks again...very interesting.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Most of the frizzles are cochins. You can make a frizzle out of anything besides a silkie. The breed of chicken does not matter. Most people choose cochins because of the size, body style, and gentleness.
You can make a frizzle out of a white leghorn. You can make a frizzle out of cornish.

Frizzle is like a color. It isn't a breed of chicken. Chickens come in all colors. All chickens, except silkies, can be frizzles.


----------



## Guest (Feb 20, 2012)

Patrick said:


> Yes, it would work, but other than intentional terminal cross production animals made to take advantage of hybrid vigor, why would you want to knowingly create a mongrel? Purebred frizzled Cochin largefowl already exist. Why reinvent the wheel?
> 
> Frizzle is recognized by both the American Poultry Association and the American Bantam Association. It may occur in any recognized breed. See the Standard of Perfection or the Bantam Standard for more information. There is no such thing a sizzle breed, anywhere. It is a mongrel.


Why are you always so negative?



pancho said:


> The feathering of a silkie and a frizzle is completely the opposite.
> The silkie is a breed. The frizzle is a feather type.
> You can either have a silkie or a frizzle, you can't have a silkie frizzle.


I've had frizzled silkies.

They have the silkie (barbless) feathers, but they come out kind of whorled.


----------



## Guest (Feb 20, 2012)

Oh, and BTW, although there is a breed called a silky, it is a specific gene. You can get silky-feathered birds in other breeds.


----------



## honeyrobber (Feb 16, 2012)

Birds are easy to breed. Nearly all chickens can be shown as a true breed when they are 3/4 that breed and some have to go back again to make them 7/8s. Until showing birds for the showing of birds the goal was bigger better meat birds or better egg birds. If you go by the old standards of state and local fairs a banty can not win best of show because it is not a food producer. Our local fair has adult standard and bantam show and minor standard and bantam show. The best of show can not be a bantam. Alot of poultry shows though are more about pretty and right shape and size for breed. With B.B. Reds(mini games) we found a cross that gave a red rooster with black hackles(neck feather) instead of the normal lighter red/orange and also added grey/blue in the wings. The halfbreeds had most of the color we were looking for but the leg color was always blue not green or yellow which is standard for bb reds. Since the bird we were using was a mini game as well but was blue in color with blue legs it only took one more cross back to the bb reds to complete the crossing. We took hens of the halfbreeds and put them with our best cocks. 3 out of 4 cocks had the color we were wanting in the hackles and the leg color was about 50/50. The hens though had to be pure bb reds as there color was more of grey instead of a brown. But the 3/4 crosses bred back to bbreds produced phenotype pure bb reds again. Remember when breeding birds they are opposite of mammals. Men are xy females are xx in mammals but in birds it is the female that is xy(I know wrong letter but forgot what they used in sceintific books) so the male passes more genetic material in birds than the females do.


----------



## cayenne47 (Nov 7, 2004)

Me too Ladycat.


----------



## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Dazlin said:


> I used to keep silkies with heavy breeds, and the roo's surely tried to get the job done. Although they often fell off sideways. I've never tried hatching anything from them. So now..I'm thinking...what if I put a nice pretty frizzle silkie boy, with a few cochin hens?? I think I would love if I can get a frizzle cochin!
> I understand, maybe the first hatch would be banty's?? Then if I breed those to pure cochins the breed can get bigger??
> Anyway...you think this could happen? Let me know your thoughts!


You can cross any two chickens that can reach each other. I loved my frizzled cochins. They are such friendly birds, much more so than some of the more common full size chickens. I always let Friz, our favorite roo, live with the hens of all breeds, but kept the other roos out of the pen. He was happy, and had his own little harem that way. We even ended up with a few frizzled silkies with the furry feathers that kind of kinked up every which way. Most of Friz's chicks ended up blue, like him, even when he mated with the white or red silkies.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Maybe I can explain it this way.

To be a silky a bird must have 2 copies of the silkie gene. If it has only 1 copy it will not be a silky. 

Frizzles have 1 copy of the frizzle gene. If it has 2 copies it is usually has very brittle feathers and can be bald. The other gene is Ha or ha, that is hard feathering or soft feathering.

When you cross a silkie and a frizzle you come up with 50% of the chicks with Fh, these will be frizzles. 50% of the chicks with ha+h, these will be normal or soft feathered.
These chicks can look like they have some silkie feathering but it is the soft feathered gene instead of the silkie. Soft feathered birds will have feathers that are soft. They can be easily bent and blown around.

The hookless gene, that is what the silkie has a hookless gene, it is recessive.
Frizzle feathered gene is an incomplete dominate gene.
Hard feathering gene is an incomplete dominate gene.
Soft feathering gene is a recessive gene.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2012)

The silky gene and the frizzle gene are not alleles. You CAN have a bird with 2 silky genes and 1 frizzle gene. 

Of course there are many modifiers involved, so actual phenotypical results can be all over the place. I've had some frizzled silkies that were barely detectable as such; you can mainly tell by the neck fuzz curling upward and the tips of the wings and tails showing some curl. But I've also had a few that looked downright wooly.

If you cross a frizzled silky with a normal feathered chicken, you get half frizzles and half normals, but no silkies unless the normal carries the silky gene.

If you cross them with regular silkies, you get all silkies, but half of those have the kinky/whorled fuzz or at least the upturned neck fuzz.


----------



## DayBird (Jul 26, 2004)

As has been discussed in-depth on other threads here on HomesteadingToday recently, just about every breed was at one time a mongrel-mutt-mix of other breeds.

Dozens of people across the country have been working on Sizzles as a distinct breed for many years now. Some have bred them to the ninth generation. They start to breed true at the fourth to fifth generation. 

It's true that they're not yet in the APA or the ABA standards but they're being shown in poultry shows everywhere. They're supposed to be bantams with a crest, feathered feet, black skin, five seperate and distinct toes on each food, and turquoise earlobes. They cannot have silky feathers. Because non-frizzled birds need to be kept to maintain feather condition, they can be either frizzle or non-frizzle. They are most commonly found in the common colors of white, black, blue, and splash but people are working with them in buff, red, partridge and even barred and paint.

They can be fairly expensive to purchase outright and good, quality birds are often hard to come by. I haven't exactly been trying to reinvent the wheel, but I have been working on my own line of birds using the best "culls" from other people's breedings that I can get.

Let's just suppose that we start with a pure, line-bred, show quality silky. We mate that bird to a pure, line-bred, show quality frizzle cochin. 

Speaking soley of feather structure, we should expect to see 50% frizzled birds and 50% smooth feathered birds. All of the birds will have barbs as the silky gene is a simple recessive. Right?

In an attempt to bring the frizzle gene onto a bird that in ever other way is a silky (five toes, turquoise earlobes, black skin, etc.) We breed one of the frizzled birds from the above mating that is carrying the silky gene to a pure, line-bred, show quality silky.

Again, speaking soley of feather structure, what would we expect to see?

50% of the chicks will be frizzled and 50% will not. But we're also dealing with the silky gene. 

When you breed a bird who is visually silky to one that is not but is carrying the gene you can expect to have 50% of the birds to be silky and 50% to not be silky but be carrying the genes. 

What this boils down to is that in the F2 cross of a frizzled bird bred from a silky to a non-frizzled silky you can expect to have:
25% of the birds will have smooth, non-frizzled, non-silky feathers
25% of the birds will have frizzled, non-silky feathers
25% of the birds will have non-frizzled, silky feathers
25% of the birds will have frizzled, silky feathers

I happen to have four birds now whose feathers are both frizzled and silky.

In the breeding of Sizzles from the original parent stock, you'd always keep your birds that are frizzled without silky feathers and breed them back to pure Silkies in an attempt to fix all the other attributes that you're wishing to breed for (black skin, five toes, etc.)


----------

