# Honey from another country?



## BlackWillowFarm (Mar 24, 2008)

I recently finished a jar of honey I picked up in Sept. at the local farm market. Locally grown and raw. It was delicious. I needed more and asked DH to pick some up at the store. I was pouring some on my toast this morning and was reading the label. How come my honey is a product of the USA, Argentina and Canada combined? Is it really less expensive to purchase honey from other countries and ship it back here or is there another reason for this? Just wondering....


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## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

There aren't enough American beekeepers to keep up with the demand for honey in this country, so it is imported from other countries.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Demand for honey in this country is almost double of what can be produced. The bulk of the world's commercial honey comes from just a few countries as they are the only ones with complete facilities for handling it. China leads the way with Argentina, Canada, Mexico, Turkey, Ukraine, and the US following behind with their standings fluctuating from year to year due to various factors. My personal imported favorite was a dark honey from India. Tasted almost identical to a similar dark honey from Louisiana. 

Martin


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

The real truth of the matter is honey can be bought from other countrys and imported cheaper than American honey can be bought. I know many American bee keepers sitting on honey because they need 1.65 a pound to break even or make a little profit. The wholesaler in our area is only paying 96 cents a pound for light amber honey.

Countrys like China have no laws on what chems. can be used in a hive for pest control and other dieases like America has as well as Canada although Canada is a couple steps ahead of the USA in what can be used.


 Al


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2009)

Paquebot said:


> The bulk of the world's commercial honey comes from just a few countries as they are the only ones with complete facilities for handling it. *China leads the way* with Argentina, Canada, Mexico, Turkey, Ukraine, and the US following behind


Now why is it you can post that and get away with it? Several times I've posted at HT that most of our honey is imported, _especially_ from China. People practically call me a liar every time I mention it.


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Hi Guys,
Wow boy, I had 200 hives a couple of years ago. I now have none. I had planned on cutting back to 2-3 but thats what happens when you sell your farm for a city job. 
Chinesse honey sells for .65 cents in 200 ton lots at San Francisco docks.
You also don't seem to know that american laws allow the adding of other sugars (IE high fructose corn syrup) to 49% and call it pure grade a honey!
You want to know why farmers market honey tastes better, thats because it is. Its also worth 3-6 times what that foreign junk is.
Cheers,
Dutch


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

whats even worse, except for a handful of states, there is no actual legal definition of what honey is. So not only do you get a blend of world honeys, sure much of such also contains a significant percentage of corn syrup or whatever else is available to cheapen it and increase profits. 

If you want real honey, probably have to buy from a local beekeeper who depends on repeat local customers. He gets a bad rep for adulterated honey and he just as well pack it in and find new buisiness.

Now occasionally I will find some specialty high dollar honey at salvage food place and will try it since they price all honey the same whether its honey flavored corn syrup or whether its some super high dollar organic specialty stuff. I liked the Nepal honey and got a jar from Germany that was very good.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Dutch 106 said:


> Hi Guys,
> Wow boy, I had 200 hives a couple of years ago. I now have none. I had planned on cutting back to 2-3 but thats what happens when you sell your farm for a city job.
> Chinesse honey sells for .65 cents in 200 ton lots at San Francisco docks.
> You also don't seem to know that american laws allow the adding of other sugars (IE high fructose corn syrup) to 49% and call it pure grade a honey!
> ...


As a longtime beekeeper I have to call BS on your statement regarding honey and additives. You cannot add 49% HFCS and call it honey. Go look at a package you get from Kentucky Fried Chicken if you ask for Honey.... it says "Honey Syrup". Look at the ingredient list.

There are also state laws. For example, in Ohio...

Statutory provision prohibiting the use of "honey" on a food label if the food is not honey (Ohio Revised Code, Title XXX VII, '3715.38).

Lots of other states have laws as well. Florida just passed a lregulation this year that provides a "Standard of Identity" for honey.

People also seem to be forgetting (or weren't beekeeping back then) that honey prices were around 65 cents per lb about 12-15 years ago. What has driven the beekeeping business in the U.S. for the longest time was pollination services. For a few years honey prices spiked and many folks looked at honey as the dog and pollination as the tail. Now pollination service prices have spiked and that appears to be the dominant factor once again. 

Al, anyone sitting on honey because they want $1.65/lb and can't get it is in the wrong business as far as I'm concerned. We sell all we produce at $6/lb and are expanding. If someone produces 10,000 lbs at $1.65/lb that's only $16,500. That's roughly 150 hives at an average of 65 lbs per hive. (Need to allow for losses, etc). It's not a bad sideline but it's a fair amount of work. That same number of hives will bring in $30,000 from 4 pollination placements at $50 per (I know someone that was getting $100 per hive this year). 

We are selling all the honey we produce at $6 per lb but we have limited how many hives we run to around 30. We are considering increasing to 40 hives at this point because we have been selling out "too early". 

We are a little different from a lot of producers in that we only extract small batchs and match the frames we extract for color and taste. My next experiment is to see if we can produce peppermint honey (planting about a third of an acre of peppermint in the spring and will set a couple hives there once the plants are ready to bloom). If we do get peppermint honey we will probably price it at $10/Lb.

Also, to digress a little, it appears that the really fine light fall honey we got this year (a different thread) is from wild Asters. I am going to look into planting those as well. Again, based on how much people liked this honey we will charge a premium for this honey.

So to BlackWillowFarm and other folks, my recommendation is to buy local and know who you buy from. You will find plenty of good local honey at different price points ranging from $2.50/lb (in quantity) and up in most regions of the country.

Just a few thoughts.

Mike


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Paquebot said:


> Demand for honey in this country is almost double of what can be produced. The bulk of the world's commercial honey comes from just a few countries as they are the only ones with complete facilities for handling it. China leads the way with Argentina, Canada, Mexico, Turkey, Ukraine, and the US following behind with their standings fluctuating from year to year due to various factors. My personal imported favorite was a dark honey from India. Tasted almost identical to a similar dark honey from Louisiana.
> 
> Martin





ladycat said:


> Now why is it you can post that and get away with it? Several times I've posted at HT that most of our honey is imported, _especially_ from China. People practically call me a liar every time I mention it.


I can say it because world production figures show that it is true. Those 7 countries do produce the most honey worldwide. There is no mention in my post as to which leads for exporting to the US, especially since the US is one of the countries mentioned among the production leaders. If you want to find out which countries lead in exporting to the US, you look it up! Don't be surprised if you find that China is not the leader.

Martin


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2009)

Paquebot said:


> I can say it because world production figures show that it is true. Those 7 countries do produce the most honey worldwide. There is no mention in my post as to which leads for exporting to the US, especially since the US is one of the countries mentioned among the production leaders. If you want to find out which countries lead in exporting to the US, you look it up! Don't be surprised if you find that China is not the leader.
> 
> Martin


My point was, why do people believe what you post, but if I post the same thing, they don't believe me? :shrug:


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

ladycat said:


> My point was, why do people believe what you post, but if I post the same thing, they don't believe me? :shrug:


The main reason, Ma'am, is that I make certain of the facts rather than relying on rumors. Whatever is posted on this forum, or anywhere else on the Internet, becomes quite permanent. If I can't post the facts, I won't leave a lie as my legacy. Nor will I post information which may not even be from this century and claim that it applies to any present situation. 

For everyone's information, the most recent US honey import data is for 2008. In order of imported quantity, the countries are: Vietnam, Canada, India, Brazil, *China*, Argentina, Malaysia, and Taiwan, Russia, Indonesia, and Mexico. Note that only 4 of those are included in the top 7 countries for production and the quantity from China is exceeded by 3 countries not among the top producers. 1994 was the last time that Chinese honey was 50% of the imports with 29,334 tons out of 55,896. 104,962 metric tons of honey were imported into the US in 2008 of which 11,234 were from China.

Martin


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2009)

Paquebot said:


> The main reason, Ma'am, is that I make certain of the facts rather than relying on rumors. Whatever is posted on this forum, or anywhere else on the Internet, becomes quite permanent. If I can't post the facts, I won't leave a lie as my legacy. Nor will I post information which may not even be from this century and claim that it applies to any present situation.


I post facts, too.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

ladycat said:


> I post facts, too.


Claiming that most of our honey was imported, "_especially_ from China", may have been a "fact" to you but wasn't a "truth" to anyone else.

Martin


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Martin: Unfortunately those numbers only show where the honey was shipped from, not necessarily where it was produced. Due to the tariffs on Chinese honey, a lot of Chinese honey is transhipped through third-party countries to avoid the tariffs, particularly Indonesia, Malaysia, India and Thailand where the Chinese have a lot of "joint venture" honey packaging factories. Don't think anybody really knows how much Chinese honey is coming into North America. There's even some coming through Canada, although it should be fairly easy to spot since Canada supplies mostly upscale honeys.

For example, folks find it interesting that 5 times as much honey was imported from Indonesia in 2008 as in 2007, almost twice as much from Malaysia, and 10 times as much from Thailand, with almost all of the increase being of white honeys that aren't typically produced in any of those countries (but are typical of Chinese honey)


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

DaleK said:


> Martin: Unfortunately those numbers only show where the honey was shipped from, not necessarily where it was produced. Due to the tariffs on Chinese honey, a lot of Chinese honey is transhipped through third-party countries to avoid the tariffs, particularly Indonesia, Malaysia, India and Thailand where the Chinese have a lot of "joint venture" honey packaging factories. Don't think anybody really knows how much Chinese honey is coming into North America. There's even some coming through Canada, although it should be fairly easy to spot since Canada supplies mostly upscale honeys.
> 
> For example, folks find it interesting that 5 times as much honey was imported from Indonesia in 2008 as in 2007, almost twice as much from Malaysia, and 10 times as much from Thailand, with almost all of the increase being of white honeys that aren't typically produced in any of those countries (but are typical of Chinese honey)


If you will look further into the facts, you will find that very close controls are in place to prevent that from happening. At this very moment, sentencing is pending on several Chinese who tried exactly that and failed. If you think that the USDA doesn't red flag any potential situations that you mentioned, you are seriously in error. 

The most famous case, and most widely used as an example, took place in Australia in 2002. As a result, there are 13 countries on the USDA list to carefully inspect every incoming batch of honey, including Australia. And as one can see from the news, suspect shipments are being checked rather closely and it's getting terribly expensive to get caught. 

Incidentally, you are not going to find legal Chinese honey for less than what's being the 96Â¢ offered in Michigan. Tariff alone is $1.20 per pound. 

Martin


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Paquebot said:


> \. My personal imported favorite was a dark honey from India. Tasted almost identical to a similar dark honey from Louisiana.
> 
> Martin


Where do you come by this honey from India?

Hmm... I wonder if they have Neem honey?


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

stormwalker said:


> Where do you come by this honey from India?
> 
> Hmm... I wonder if they have Neem honey?


A local wholesale warehouse company carried it several years ago and I haven't seen it since.

Martin


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Paquebot said:


> A local wholesale warehouse company carried it several years ago and I haven't seen it since.
> 
> Martin


Shoot!
I've never encountered any from that continent!
I'm very fond of honey and try all I can get my hands on.

On the adulterated honey topic, do you have any more info?


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

stormwalker said:


> Shoot!
> I've never encountered any from that continent!
> I'm very fond of honey and try all I can get my hands on.
> 
> On the adulterated honey topic, do you have any more info?


As I recall, the Indian honey was imported into Canada and bottled there.

Adulterated honey is generally that which has corn syrup added. The bulk of that was produced in the US.

Martin


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Paquebot said:


> Adulterated honey is generally that which has corn syrup added. The bulk of that was produced in the US.
> 
> Martin


Is this currently the case?
How do you know what you're getting?
This is important to me because my daughter is allergic to corn.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

stormwalker said:


> Is this currently the case?
> How do you know what you're getting?
> This is important to me because my daughter is allergic to corn.


It is required by law to be on the label. If the contents are pure honey, it will state that it is pure honey. If it contains anything else, it must be labeled accordingly.

Martin


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Paquebot said:


> It is required by law to be on the label. If the contents are pure honey, it will state that it is pure honey. If it contains anything else, it must be labeled accordingly.
> 
> Martin


Thanks- We're alright then.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

stormwalker said:


> Thanks- We're alright then.


Then enjoy! I consume at least a teaspoon of honey every single day and have had just about every main type plus a lot of uncommon ones. Still haven't had one that I didn't like no matter where it came from.

Martin


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Paquebot said:


> It is required by law to be on the label. If the contents are pure honey, it will state that it is pure honey. If it contains anything else, it must be labeled accordingly.
> 
> Martin


Now I have another question I believe you may help me with.

I bought some honey at my local farmer's market.
They volunteered that their honey would never crystalize.I told them at the time I did not believe that since I've seen many a jar with crystals.
Could it be there was corn syrup in that? I've never had Karo crystylize!


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

stormwalker said:


> Now I have another question I believe you may help me with.
> 
> I bought some honey at my local farmer's market.
> They volunteered that their honey would never crystalize.I told them at the time I did not believe that since I've seen many a jar with crystals.
> Could it be there was corn syrup in that? I've never had Karo crystylize!


It is not syrup that causes the honey to not crystallize, it has been pasteurized. That is, heated to about 150ÂºF. It will remain liquid for a long time.

Martin


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Paquebot said:


> Then enjoy! I consume at least a teaspoon of honey every single day and have had just about every main type plus a lot of uncommon ones. Still haven't had one that I didn't like no matter where it came from.
> 
> Martin


Lord knows what would happen if I only had one teaspoon of honey a day!
I grew up with honey on my cereal, honey in my tea and on my toast!
If people think I'm a pain now- can you imagine?
That's why I was worried. I need a reasonably priced commercial honey for tea and cooking. I can't afford
single estate honeys for everything!


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Paquebot said:


> It is not syrup that causes the honey to not crystallize, it has been pasteurized. That is, heated to about 150ÂºF. It will remain liquid for a long time.
> 
> Martin


I'm glad to hear that-They have cranberry honey in half-gallon jars, and I think it has a very nice taste!


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## cheapskate (May 9, 2006)

A short drive from me, there is a honey processing plant. They told me it is the second largest plant like it in North America.

The import honey from 55 countries, and more coming.

The place sure is nice to go into. It smells like honey! Lots and lots of honey!

We get empty 55 gallon drums from there and even though theyve been washed out, they smell like honey for a loooong time.


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

cheapskate-
It's not nice to tease people less fortunate than yourself! LOL!
I can imagine walking into a building that smells of honey.
I would call that heaven!


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## Wylie Kyote (Dec 1, 2009)

Any of you guys try eucalyptus honey?


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Wylie Kyote said:


> Any of you guys try eucalyptus honey?


Nope!
But I will, if I have the chance!


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

You'll find eucalyptus honey for sale at:
www.fruitwoodorchardshoney.com/honey_products.html
I rather doubt that it's "local" unless it's from California or Florida. 

Martin


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## stormwalker (Oct 27, 2004)

Paquebot said:


> You'll find eucalyptus honey for sale at:
> www.fruitwoodorchardshoney.com/honey_products.html
> I rather doubt that it's "local" unless it's from California or Florida.
> 
> Martin


Thanks, Martin!
I'm low on "eating" honey.
I'll give them a call tomorrow.
These exotic honeys are one temptation that might lure me from my temperate clime.
But then, I really do need the change of seasons.
Such a conundrum!


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## Lauri (Sep 20, 2008)

My friend worked at a honey processing plant last year. Told me that his job was to run the labeler. One day his boss came buy and gave him new labels to apply. 


The "wildflower" honey, suddenly became "clover" honey.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Paquebot said:


> It is required by law to be on the label. If the contents are pure honey, it will state that it is pure honey. If it contains anything else, it must be labeled accordingly.
> 
> Martin


And if I put a tooth under my pillow, the tooth fairy will leave a quarter.... Greed hasnt been stopped by toothless regulations yet. There are no national regulations and no honey police that I know of. Just taste those "blended world honeys" and tell me that is pure anything. Same with maple syrup. I've tasted home made maple syrup, whats sold as maple syrup, even high dollar stuff is unlikely to be pure maple syrup. Again their are no maple syrup police except maybe in a particular state with significant economic benefit from keeping maple syrup pure. 

I imagine the honey syrup label at the fast food places is done for pure expediency so it can be carried in any KFC anywhere without fear of some huge lawsuit over tiny packet of sweetner. As you mentioned, there are some state laws that try to get in way of profit. Dont need class action law suits over something that doesnt really even contribute to their profits. Most people eating at such places arent too worried about health or food purity, but somebody would notice deep corporate pockets and might get ideas....


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

The existence of the USDA regulations were previously established and covered on another HT thread. The only portion not in effect then was the most recent. The newest is that the country of origin must also now be on the label. 

Martin


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

In case anyone thinks that diluting honey with syrup and calling it pure honey is legal, the fines can run a hair high as in this noted case:
www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&se=gglsc&d=5002230524

That was in violation of the Honey Research, Promotion, and Consumer Information Act from the early 1990s. One of the stated purpose of that act is: "The ability to develop and maintain purity standards for honey,...."

Martin


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