# maximum thiamin dosage



## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

I have a question. I am the one who's doe, Mary has polio. I'm sure she'll be gone by morning........I am obsessing over everything I did or didn't do in my mind. In my post "Sick doe--HELP" I wrote today that the vet gave me vitamin B complex instead of B1 at first. I gave Mary 5 injections over two days of 20 cc or ml each. Today when I figured out that they gave me the wrong thing I got the real B1. I gave her a 20cc/ml injection at noon (the strength is 500 mg/ml). This was per the vet--and I checked the dose twice with him. I was so hoping for an improvement when we went back down at 4 since it was straight B1. When we got to her she was worse--way worse. 

I assumed the two day delay made it too late to start the B1. But.....I started reading about B1 dosing. All the doses I've read about are much less than we gave her. Can too much thiamin hurt her? I know it's water soluable and it says it's hard to overdose with it. But I've not been able to find anyone who gave their goat as much as 20 cc/ml in each shot. 

I was so sick with myself that I didn't notice the vet's mistake in giving us B complex instead of B1 in the first place. Now I'm wondering if too much B1 has made her worse--or killed her. Is that possible? 

I just want to know I did all I can. I know I should have been able to trust a vet. But I'm mad at myself for not being able to save her.

I'm still praying for a miracle, but I fear it's too late.

Dee


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

10,000 mg? Thats about 10 X what I would give a 200 lb goat.

I always start my polio treatment with a booster dosage - not quite that big, but at this point, I don't think it will kill your goat.

Just start over in the morning. She also needs a steroid or other anti inflamatory for her brain swelling. Do you have banamine?

Merck's vet manual dosage for treatment is 10 mg of B1 per kg (2.2 lbs) of goat. A concentration of 500mg per CC works out to roughly 1 CC per 100 pounds of goat. Give that every 6 hours for 3-5 days, or until she's looking normal.


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

Oh, my God. One cc for a 100 pound goat?!!! The two injections I gave her today were 20 cc!!! Could that kill her? Unless the vet was dosing based on the complex he originally gave me. That had 12.5 mg. of thiamin per ml. When they then switched to the B1 why wouldn't they tell me to dose differently!!!!!

I'm so upset right now. Could that be why she took a drastic turn downhill when we started the B1? Could this kill her? She looked horrible. Is there still a chance she could make it?

I just want to cry.

Dee


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Ok... I'm no goat expert, but you need to calm down, take a deep breath and realize that we cannot save every animal, it is just not in our hands to do so. Remember that ALL animals will die, as will ALL people. Yes, it is sad to lose one and hard when you have done what you can for her. I am sure that it is not your intention to make any errors, or your vet's intention. 

We do the best we can, but things happen. We are not God, it is not all up to us. If you do lose your baby, grieve for her, but realize that even if we do everything perfect we WILL lose some of our babies at times, don't beat yourself up over it. 

Eat well, get a bit of sleep, enjoy your family and your pets. When you are calm, then look at what happened with an eye to what you might try next time and what you can learn from it (whether she survives or not).


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## JR05 (Jan 1, 2005)

So sorry about your situation, I was there this summer. Here is what Dearhear sent to me, it helped understand dosing:

Quote:
# Polioencephalomalcia (Goat Polio) - a Thiamine (Vitamin B 1) deficiency. From improper feeding, particularly feeding too much grain and too little roughage. Symptoms - Excitability, "stargazing", uncoordinated staggering and/or weaving, drunkenness, circling, diarrhea, muscle tremor, head against wall, and apparent blindness. As it progresses, convulsions and high fever may occur, and if untreated, the animal generally dies within 24-72 hours.

# Treatment - Thiamine is the only effective therapy, and treatment can result in improvement in as little as two hours, if the disease is caught early enough. Dosage is related to body weight: Daily treatment for 5 days and then weekly as required. 
With this I was giving her shots of banimine and la200 daily, and nutri drench (3 times a day) after which I would give her syringes of water so she didn't dehydrate.

Also might try the 911 goat help line. 803-897-3078 These people were the greatest help to me and I will use them again if the need comes again. Sometimes just talking to others that have goats and understand them, helps us to get through tough situation. Good Luck.

jr05


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## AllWolf (Dec 27, 2005)

When my goat was suffering from goat polio I gave her Fortified Vitamin B-Complex which has Thiamine in it. When I was given my goat the Vitamin B Complex I gave it to her 3 times a day alone with goat nutrich drench. The shots I gave was 2 cc 3 times a day. When she got the first shot she stood up on own but fell back down after a few mins. She did eat and all I worked with her and worked with her. You know the rest of the story after that. Vitamin B1, also called thiamine so you giving Vitamin B Complex is good but if a goat is really bad with goat polio it takes a miracle to get them well no matter how hard you try. I have read some stories that a goat was saved but more than likely will not be. Also as I stated in the other post I gave my little gal goat nutrich drench but I still lost her. Sometimes it not meant for a goat to stay here on this earth so we have to face the facts and go on. I know it will be hard but if the goat isn't getting no better after 5 days just staying the same I about dout it will get better. I don't like to say it but you may have to have the goat put down. I usually do not say that but I have battled with goat polio and it is something very hard to fight. At least when I lost my gal I didn't have to have her put down she went on her own. 

Also forgot to say when my goat got sick like this it was on a friday so no Vet open so had to get the Vitamin B Complex which works as good if not to late in giving treatment. I was to late and first didn't know what I was dealing with but I said that in another post of yours. Goats are a learning experice and always have more to learn about them. 

Sorry your goat is still bad. I will be praying for you and the goat. God will also take care of you.


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

20 cc is definately more than your goat needs, but according to my vet, thiamin is water soluable and they pee out what their body doesn't need. I give 5 cc injections to adult goats. I also give Banamine and Biomycin. I hope your doe gets better.


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

Thiamine dosages are based on the weight of the goat and the concentration of the thiamine you're giving. The 500mg/mL works out to 1 cc of THAT CONCENTRATION per 100 lbs of goat. Please, if you're dosing your own goat, do a little math and work out the formula - the dosage is 10mg of thiamine/kG (2.2 lbs) of goat weight. There is a huge difference is dosage between a B complex that is 12.5mG/mL and straight thiamine that's 500 mG/mL. Not all B complex concentrations are the same. To dose a 100 lb goat with B complex that contains 12.5 mG/mL (the most common dilution), you'd need to inject 36 CC's every six hours. Read the labels on the medications you give, and learn how to dose correctly. There are many publications and websites out there. It is hard to overdose a goat on thiamine, but who wants to stress an already sick animal? Underdosing of thiamine results in ineffective treatment though, and that's what happens in most cases because people use the B complex.


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

Thanks, everyone for your help. Mary died last night. I knew it and was prepared for it today.

I feel a bit better that it wasn't too much B1 but just the fact that she was too far along. Whether she would have improved if we had B1 right from the beginning I don't know. In thinking about it, I doubt it. She didn't show ANY improvement when we started the complex and by the time we started the B1 she had already started going downhill.

This whole dosing thing is a lesson learned. I know nothing about it and was not attempting to dose her myself. I was doing what the vet told me. Perhaps there was some confusion b/c he gave me the complex first and then the B1...but I would have thought someone would have told me to change the dose. I will do more research on my own next time even when consulting with a vet, I guess. That's the only way I found out it was polio in the first place--on my own. Well, with you guys, I should say. Polio isn't even in the two goat books I have--Storey and Barrens.

Next time I'll know. I know I did the best I could. But I still feel sick. 

Dee


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I'm sorry to hear that. You did your best.


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

MamaDee said:


> Thanks, everyone for your help. Mary died last night. I knew it and was prepared for it today.


Don't beat yourself up, you did call the vet, something too many goat owners won't do. I'm sure your goat knew you were trying to help her. Polio is nearly impossible to treat and cure. The first time I saw it, I had no idea, and as a result, although I "saved" my goat, she will have lingering neurological problems forever. The next time I saw it, I knew immediately what was wrong, had the medication onhand to treat it, and that goat was up and around in hours. Goats are a learning process, and I have yet to find a good goat book that has ALL the answers. 

My vet didn't know anything about goats when I first aquired some. Together, we killed the first two (bloat), but we've both learned a lot since. I'm lucky - my vet is willing to listen to me when I make suggestions - he knows I spend a lot more time online reading about symptoms and treatment than he has time for. Half the time I just call and say "I need xxx drug, get it for me" and he says 'Okay'. He willingly faxes jeffers whenever I want prescription drugs to keep onhand. 

You wait - in a couple of years, people will be coming to YOU for advice - experience isn't always an easy teacher, but the lessons stay with us longer.


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## DocM (Oct 18, 2006)

Dee, if you don't already have it, send for Hoegger's catalog. Not only do they sell great goat stuff, their catalog is a treasure of health tips for goats. Also, their fortified B complex is good to keep on hand because the B1 concentration is 100 mG/mL and the dosage is easy to calculate. 

Hoeggers: http://hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/home.php

and let me recommend ONE book:

The Goatkeeper's Vet Book
http://hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=3046&cat=0&bestseller


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

Everyone on the forum is so great. I thank you all.

I just talked to the vet. I think I finally get what happened. Apparently, the Dr. did mean to prescribe a complex first--he just made the dose high enough so Mary would get enough B1. I guess he didn't know they had straight B1. I sure wish he would have told me that's what he was doing, since I kept insisting B1 was what I wanted.

Two days later I went for another bottle. They handed me the complex and I said I needed B1. They went and got B1. I said well, it looks different than the last bottle we had.....they double checked with someone in the back (the Dr. was not there). They came back and assured me that it was what I needed. No mention of a dosage change.

The vet today was very upset. He said he didn't think Mary would have made it anyway b/c she didn't really improve on the first two days of B complex with the high B1 dosage. He said he didn't THINK that the OD of B1 killed her but he couldn't say for sure....it was a huge overdose. But he felt bad enough about it to offer the vet's office to pay for half of what Mary cost us--$125. 

My Mom is a nurse and she said that the nurses should have NEVER given me that B1 no matter how much I insisted if it differed from the Dr.'s orders--which it did. If a nurse in a regular Dr.s office did that she could lose her license. I get that, but I'm the one who gave Mary the shots and I feel horrible. I hope she knows I was trying to help her. 

I do believe even if Mary would have survived, she might not have been right, since she would have had more improvement with the complex right off. So I hope and pray she is better off. It's still hard. We raised Mary from a bottle kid and will miss her. The other two does seemed a bit freaked, too.


Thanks again to everyone.

Dee


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## goatkid (Nov 20, 2005)

Dee: I'm so sorry you lost Mary. You did the best you could with her. It sounds like she was a pretty sick goat in the first place. There is the chance it wasn't polio and that's why she didn't respond to the dose of B complex in the first place. Goats can sometimes be tricky to diagnose without an experienced goat vet near by. We just have to do the best we can, which is what you did.


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## enjoy the ride (Nov 22, 2006)

I'm sorry your poor little girl didn't respond. It is not unusual for vet staff to do just what they did with you-and as you get more experienced you better at questioning things- but you tried really hard and did what you could.
I have been following this thread and because if it, when I was at the vet's today, I bought a bottle of B1 (I already had B complex,) and was fortunate enough to catch the vet in and he wrote down the cc amounts for the various goat's I have on the bottle. I hope I never have to use it but thanks to your posting, I will have it if needed.


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## MamaDee (May 10, 2006)

enjoy the ride,


I'm so glad the thread helped you. That's why this forum is so great. It really helped me get through this last few days. And if it can help someone else too, I am grateful.

Thanks again, everyone.

Dee


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## Guestnurse (Mar 3, 2020)

Are you sure it wasn't meningococcal deer worm infestation which can have very similar symptoms to polio? I recently had a goat with the deer worm infestation, (diagnosed myself) treated with very high doses of safeguard (10x the normal dose) and vit b complex. She has made a near full recovery. She will always have the very slight limp due to neural damage, but she is good.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Didn't read all the posts but if it was polio, the excessive Vit B1 probably didn't kill her. As a water soluble vitamin, excess is usually excreted in bodily fluids. You'd have to talk to a toxicologist to know for sure but I usualy don't worry about overdoses in Vit B. If she didn't make a massive improvement in a few hours it probably wasn't polio or if it was, she had a poor prognosis. Listeria or other neurologic disease more likely, most of which are much harder to treat. Neurologic animals in my care usually receive thiamine, antibiotics for listeria, and steroids or anti-inflammatories dependent on pregnancy status or how worried the owner is about kids vs the affected doe). 

Having lost 3 animals to Listeria myself, I'm so sorry for your loss. It is often unrewarding to treat any neurologic disease even with impeccable care and owner support.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Guestnurse said:


> *Are you sure* it wasn't meningococcal deer worm infestation which can have very similar symptoms to polio?


This thread is 14 years old.
The person you're asking hasn't posted in 10 years.


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