# Best Breed for CA/young children/visitors



## Amandakae02 (Jun 10, 2016)

Hi, we have a unique setup and would like your thoughts on the best breed of LGD for us. We have been losing chickens left and right this last week as a family of raccoons (I think) have found us! They are killing them during the day, and at night if they can get to them. I have them locked in their coop 24/7 now until we can find a way for them to be out safely. I have lost 11 chickens in 1 week. Last night one reached in and grabbed a hen's head while she was sleeping next to the gate. Couldn't get her out but still ripped her head off, so there was another loss anyway. 
So I have decided to take the plunge for an LGD. Great Pyrenees and Akbash are both available right now where we are. 

What I have gathered about these two breeds are the following, please correct me if I am wrong:

GPyr- they will wander away from the sheep if they can get out of the fencing, right? Whereas the Akbash is more likely to stay with the livestock? 
The GPyr is not as aggressive to strangers as the abash?
The GPyr will need much more brushing/coat care than Akbash

Things to consider:
Terrain-We live in the central valley of CA, very hot with lots of fox tails in our fields.
Experience- I am a very experienced dog owner, I was a professional trainer before I had a bazillion kids :grin: I would consider breeding for LGD use only. (I am very against breeding to make money. There are too many dogs in the shelters for that). 
Aggression: I have 5 children 6yrs and under who love to "help" me with the animals. We also occasionally rent out a field or two to other farmers, so they will be coming and going from the fields occasionally. We also live on a very large plant nursery, so there are people coming and going at all hours of the day/night, but they would not be going into the animals fields, just in the driveway. 

We have two other dogs, a shy BC and a boxer who will eat my chickens if given half of a chance. 
There is a pack of coyotes who live behind our property
We are on a fenced 35 acres, though there are some holes that need to be fixed.
We also have sheep and a cow. I would like the dog to stay with the sheep as they graze in our very large field close to the coyotes. 

Another issue is whether to get a puppy or an adult or a pair. Available right now are:
Akbash male puppy, 4 months old. He is already protective. 

Great Pyrenees neutered male, 3yrs

Great Pyrenees male female breeding pair

Thanks!!

Mandy


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## Amandakae02 (Jun 10, 2016)

All of the dogs I am looking at are currently working on farms with sheep and chickens, and are friendly with kids


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## aleefarms (Jul 23, 2014)

I am very partial to Akbash, but a 4 month old is not ready to protect. He is just showing natural instinct and has the potential with your dog experience to be a great guardian. The best choice for immediate help is the 3 yr old Pyrenees. The question is why is he available? The third choice doesn't fit your criteria because when she is in heat and whelping neither dog is as focused on protection as they need to be. As far as the children and the visitors, these breeds are not people aggressive by their nature but all individual dogs should be socialized and evaluated. Another option is the 3 yr old and the Akbash puppy. 
Good luck


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

The first thought I had after reading about your situation is that you will need more than "one" LGD to protect your stock against a "pack" of coyotes.

The above poster is correct in that a 4-month old pup will not be appropriate to protect your place *until it gets a great deal older*. I've had no experience with GPs but, from what I've heard, were you to get a "pair" (both fixed so as not to breed), you might be able to ward off the yotes and protect your fowl...not sure.

With 35 acres and holes in your fence, you would be putting any LGD(s) you get at a disadvantage. You really need to shore up that fencing before putting canines in there.

At this particular time you might simply put a "rescue" dog that is good with chickens in the chicken pen. LGDs do not bond with fowl anyway and it would keep predators from getting any more. Just keep that dog some type of housing to use. Any good guard dog can be "quickly" trained to NOT HARM YOUR FOWL; and that is really all you need for a start.

As for getting LGDs to maybe breed down the road, you might give some thought to the Bulgarian Karakachan. I have one of those and cannot say enough good things about her. There are others on this forum who can attest to their maturity and no-nonsense protective characteristics too. What I'm saying is: Don't limit yourself to just what you have found locally. Do a little searching first. The "breeding" pair you want might work best for sales purposes if you actually got a breed of LGD that is "not" common around your area.

As for as your children and visitors coming on your place: Keep your LGDs in the pasture with your sheep with a good sign on your fencing letting all know not to go near the fence, and you won't need to concern yourself about those LGDs harming others. (You will, of course, want to "socialize" your children with ALL dogs you get, including those livestock guardian canines.)

Now as for your hot temperatures: It gets hot here too and I keep a kiddie pool out under the shade trees for my LGD to get into. Cooling their feet works wonders to keep their temps down. You will, of course, need to teach your LGDs (that stay out in your acreage most of the time) to let you brush them or you could wind up with what others have during hot temps, i.e. hotspots due to their thick undercoats.

Hope this helps some.


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## Itsroger (Aug 28, 2015)

At this particular time you might simply put a "rescue" dog that is good with chickens in the chicken pen. LGDs do not bond with fowl anyway and it would keep predators from getting any more. Just keep that dog some type of housing to use. Any good guard dog can be "quickly" trained to NOT HARM YOUR FOWL; and that is really all you need for a start.

I have to disagree with this statement! I had a great Pyrenees with my chickens and she completely bonded with them to the point that if I got a new hen and put it out with the 100 or so that were hers,she would keep the strange one away from "her hens" until I made her let it eat with the others.


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## DryHeat (Nov 11, 2010)

For the immediate future, I'd suggest getting a couple of medium size HavaHart traps and going after the raccoons or whatever directly. Try peanut butter or fishy cat food as bait, then take any traps+'***** out a ways away and shoot them with a .22 while still in the trap, clean up, repeat. Use precautions to avoid blood spatter, tissue if you head-shoot, etc, since they can have rabies.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

If the coyotes have not gotten your sheep yet, I'd say they are not interested. We have coyotes and coydogs in our area, but they did not attack the sheep. Might have been because we had two donkeys in with them. But, a neighbor has sheep and goats, no guard dog or electric fencing and he has not lost livestock to coyotes either. Predators learn what is food when they are young, and your coyotes may be happy with rabbits and rodents.

Your chickens should be behind electric fencing. An electric fence will keep out raccoons, fox, and dogs. They make a netting specific to poultry. If it is only raccoons getting the chickens, you can free range the chickens during the day and they will put themselves in the coop of their own accord, just remember to close the gate.

Raccoons are generally out and about around midnight. Put your dogs outside at this time for a couple of hours. Their barking should keep the raccoons away. Raccoons don't go to the same hunting grounds every night, but return usually every three days. If there are raccoons more often than that it is because there is more than one.

Killing the pests is a good option, but it won't last. Other raccoons/foxes will fill the void. Electric fence.


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## Amandakae02 (Jun 10, 2016)

Thank you for all of these great responses! I am curious though about the statement "Any good guard dog can be "quickly" trained to NOT HARM YOUR FOWL; and that is really all you need for a start.".... I am curious know how you easily train a dog with VERY high prey drive and previous chicken killings to be trustworthy with chickens? My boxer respects the chickens as my property when I am present and will not touch them, but the moment my back is turned, all bets are off. I tried getting him to bond with chicks by keeping them in the house for weeks. He would cuddle with them and lick them... then he ate them when I had the babysitter watching the kids.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I can only attest to my experiences here on this little 6 acres for the last 20 yrs (since 1995) and tell you how I did it. 

I've had "mutts" as well as purebloods (shepherds, labradores and now a Karakachan). Each and everyone of these have been interested in stalking and/or eating the fowl except for the Karakachan. And each one has had a high prey drive and have even chased/caught wild rabbits, etc. around here...and ate them. I, also, lost some fowl to these dogs. Each time I would get the fowl, scold the dog and walk away. The lab was different in that he did it more than once; so I took a rubber hose to him while the goose he had been maulling pecked his nose. That was the last time even he attempted to harm fowl. What worked best for training these dogs was my near constant attention to what they were doing. Also, when one was trained and became more mature, I'ld attach a 6' leash to that dog with a new puppy in training at the other end...doing this when I could not be so attentive. (At times I would even knock on my window to get the dog's attention when it was looking the wrong way at some fowl.) Thus, the training was quick yet with a great deal of effort on my part.

The LGD was quite different! At the age of 8 weeks this Karakachan came to live here and immediately saw a rooster she was interested in. As she headed toward it my son clapped his hands together which distracted her. I believe I stated "uh uh" loudly and she stopped and decided to do something different. About a week or so later she cornered a grown rooster that got stuck in fencing. I picked up that rooster and sat down next to this canine stroking the rooster and letting the dog smell and see what I was doing. Not once since then has she even made an attempt to hurt the fowl and I have guineas, chickens, geese and ducks. I know most LGDs are said to not "bond" with fowl and I do believe this to be true; however, this Karakachan certainly has protected the fowl here on more than one occasion.

Thus, with the diverse breeds of canines I've had here and my experiences with them, I concluded "any dog can learn not to harm chickens".


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Amandakae02 said:


> Thank you for all of these great responses! I am curious though about the statement "Any good guard dog can be "quickly" trained to NOT HARM YOUR FOWL; and that is really all you need for a start.".... I am curious know how you easily train a dog with VERY high prey drive and previous chicken killings to be trustworthy with chickens? My boxer respects the chickens as my property when I am present and will not touch them, but the moment my back is turned, all bets are off. I tried getting him to bond with chicks by keeping them in the house for weeks. He would cuddle with them and lick them... then he ate them when I had the babysitter watching the kids.


I don't want to tell you what to do with your dogs. But, I will relay a story of how my father used to teach our hound dogs to leave the chickens alone. Take the dead chicken away from the dog. Wrap the body with fine wire, lay it next to the electric fence and attach the wired up chicken to the fence. Go in the house and have a cup of coffee. The dog will teach himself to leave the chickens alone.

Muleskinner2


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