# Twisted goat spine



## valsey (May 21, 2006)

My Nubian doe's spine appears crooked to me. She's walking strangely and she's 'curved'. Last week she seemed to have a sore front hoof - upon inspection, I saw nothing except a chipped hoof. I can actually run my hand down her spine and it feels curved. Her appetite is fine. Her poops are fine. She doesn't seem to be in any pain. When I touch her back left leg it seems to effect her. She kind of nods her head like: 'yep, that's the spot'. It's very odd. Anybody have any idea what this could be? It's been extremely wet and muddy here - she could have easily slipped and sprained something.

I'll try to post a photo to give you a better idea of what I'm trying to explain.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

pictures (if I can make this work) next post


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Here are pictures

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0BwejlCuuXnUVNjYyZDUyMGMtZjI2Ny00MjRlLTk4ZmQtYjJmZGRkYjg3ZTA3&hl=en

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0BwejlCuuXnUVYmQxM2E1MzAtNGViYi00NjVkLWIyMzktY2I2ODg2NDBhNjk4&hl=en

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0BwejlCuuXnUVOGUzN2FjOGUtMmNlYi00YTFiLTg4ZTAtOWI2MDM2ZDhiYTQ0&hl=en


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## emanuelcs34 (Dec 5, 2007)

Sorry I can't help, but wow, that seems really strange.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Has the spine looked curved only since you noticed her hurt leg? In one photo it looks like she's not aligned, which would make it look like a curve, then another photo I see the curve clearly.

I've never seen an adult goat with a curved spine. Is it possible her favoring of the rear leg makes it look curved/out of alignment? If she were mine I'd start there, maybe she bruised herself good. Try to see if she's putting weight on the leg. If you have any pain meds, I might give her some to see if the curvature improves, if so you would know it's the leg for sure. 

HF


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

valsey said:


> My Nubian doe's spine appears crooked to me. She's walking strangely and she's 'curved'. Last week she seemed to have a sore front hoof - upon inspection, I saw nothing except a chipped hoof. I can actually run my hand down her spine and it feels curved. Her appetite is fine. Her poops are fine. She doesn't seem to be in any pain. When I touch her back left leg it seems to effect her. She kind of nods her head like: 'yep, that's the spot'. It's very odd. Anybody have any idea what this could be? It's been extremely wet and muddy here - she could have easily slipped and sprained something.
> 
> I'll try to post a photo to give you a better idea of what I'm trying to explain.
> 
> ...


Im not a vet, but I have done allot of research on minerals and well anything goat related. You dont have a specific place in Ga that you are located, but with the exception of a few areas we are copper and selenium deficient in this state among most of the country. 
I would reccomend you try to educate yourself on copper bolusing your goats, http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html is a good place to start if you have any questions I can try and help


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Cannon_Farms said:


> Im not a vet, but I have done allot of research on minerals and well anything goat related. You dont have a specific place in Ga that you are located, but with the exception of a few areas we are copper and selenium deficient in this state among most of the country.
> I would reccomend you try to educate yourself on copper bolusing your goats, http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html is a good place to start if you have any questions I can try and help


Thanks.

I'm just outside of Atlanta. My Toggenburgs have been copper deficient and bolused, but the Nubians never seemed to show any signs of a deficiency. I was not aware of a curved spine being a symptom of a copper deficiency. Is it?


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Feb 17, 2003)

What is her temp?
Is hoof hot to touch?
Is she pregnant?
Last wormed? and with what?


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

HappyFarmer said:


> Has the spine looked curved only since you noticed her hurt leg? In one photo it looks like she's not aligned, which would make it look like a curve, then another photo I see the curve clearly.
> 
> I've never seen an adult goat with a curved spine. Is it possible her favoring of the rear leg makes it look curved/out of alignment? If she were mine I'd start there, maybe she bruised herself good. Try to see if she's putting weight on the leg. If you have any pain meds, I might give her some to see if the curvature improves, if so you would know it's the leg for sure.
> 
> HF


Yes - I noticed the curve today and the hurt leg last week. I'm betting that she is favoring it, just like you suggested. Giving her pain meds is a great idea to see if that is the case. I believe I have a shot of Banamine in the fridge...would that work? Or is there something OTC I can try?

Thanks


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

look at the goat in the picture of saanendoah, in the classic symptoms curved spine is one of them. Her coat condition also tells me that something is amiss with her, heres some pictures that are from copper deficient goats, http://u-sayranch.com/main/2010/01/remedying-copper-deficiency-with-copasure-bolus/


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

I may be wrong, but if the curve is a recent development, like symptoms started the past week, I doubt it's from copper deficiency. CD take a while to show signs, gradual. This doesn't mean she's not deficient, just that the sudden curvature may have other sources. 
Bolus her anyway if she needs it, while looking for the source of the curve.
HF


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Natural Beauty Farm said:


> What is her temp?
> Is hoof hot to touch?
> Is she pregnant?
> Last wormed? and with what?


The hoof was not hot to the touch when I checked it the first time - I'll check again. 

She is not pregnant.

I only worm when necessary based on fecals (only 5 goats on 7 acres). It's been quite a while because a recent fecal was clear. I'd say maybe 9 months or more and with Ivermectin.

Sorry - didn't even occur to me to take a temp - in my mind it was an injury...but I will.

Any ideas?

Thanks


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

There can be other causes but in my opinion it fits well, and if you had to do the other goats then you can bet on it just about that any goat around would need it done.

What do you worm with and how much?


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Banamine would do it. Wait until tomorrow in daylight so you can observe her, take pics for comparison.
HF


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Cannon_Farms said:


> look at the goat in the picture of saanendoah, in the classic symptoms curved spine is one of them. Her coat condition also tells me that something is amiss with her, heres some pictures that are from copper deficient goats, http://u-sayranch.com/main/2010/01/remedying-copper-deficiency-with-copasure-bolus/


I will definitely give that picture (and the site ) another look. 

Can you tell me what you think about her coat? Does it look bad?


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

HappyFarmer said:


> Banamine would do it. Wait until tomorrow in daylight so you can observe her, take pics for comparison.
> HF


I'm no goat pro - is that SQ? (please say yes). And she's about 190 lbs - can you tell me the dosage by chance?


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

No doubt CannonFarms, I wasn't meaning to discredit you, I agree the symptoms can fit with C.Def. also.
HF


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Her coat isnt bad but it is a tad bit rough and a goats health, or any animals is shown through the coat, it could be that you are feeding a feed thats just not providing what a goat needs, btw what are you feeding? You may try to use quest horse wormer for such a small herd, it works well here and the same as cydectin but in a much cheaper and easier form.
You can see the same goat everyday and the change can be gradual to the point it goes unnoticed until it gets to a certain point. Granted she could have had some spinal trauma or have a bad trim job but even a hurt foot cant cause immediate spinal twisting with out them being severely lame to begin with and the goat would not be walking around if that was the case.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

HappyFarmer said:


> No doubt CannonFarms, I wasn't meaning to discredit you, I agree the symptoms can fit with C.Def. also.
> HF


Agreed. Just seems so sudden - as if it were an injury. And it is SLICK out there...


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

1cc per 100#'s. IM, Intra Muscular. Stab the needle into the meaty portion of her leg & push the plunger. Hold her as she will probably jump. 
Do you have Ephiphrine on hand for an allergic reaction? Has shehad Banamine before?
HF


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

HappyFarmer said:


> No doubt CannonFarms, I wasn't meaning to discredit you, I agree the symptoms can fit with C.Def. also.
> HF


Hey, one thing you can count on, Ill never claim to be a know it all but I am who I am and will freely give my opinion, but thats all it is:thumb:


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Ya want some spinach Popeye? 
>chuckle<
HF


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Cannon_Farms said:


> Her coat isnt bad but it is a tad bit rough and a goats health, or any animals is shown through the coat, it could be that you are feeding a feed thats just not providing what a goat needs, btw what are you feeding? You may try to use quest horse wormer for such a small herd, it works well here and the same as cydectin but in a much cheaper and easier form.
> You can see the same goat everyday and the change can be gradual to the point it goes unnoticed until it gets to a certain point. Granted she could have had some spinal trauma or have a bad trim job but even a hurt foot cant cause immediate spinal twisting with out them being severely lame to begin with and the goat would not be walking around if that was the case.


Her coat is very smooth IMHO. ;-) I thought for sure you were going to mention how the hair along her back flips and flops...that's strange to me. Always assumed it was worms, but never get wormy fecal results!

These guys have lots of land to browse. I only grain them in the winter and then only 2 cups a day of Nobel Goat. They have free choice minerals and they get bermuda hay.

If you could really see how she's walking, you'd see what I mean. It's like a car with a bent frame - that really describes it best. And seriously - zero curve one day and super noticeable the next.

I agree that it's probably not a spinal injury - how could she walk? I feel like she must be favoring it - like we would if we put our back out.

Maybe I need to get her to the chiropractor (kidding...sort of)


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

HappyFarmer said:


> Ya want some spinach Popeye?
> >chuckle<
> HF


? ? must be a private joke...


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Cannon_Farms said:


> Hey, one thing you can count on, Ill never claim to be a know it all but I am who I am and will freely give my opinion, but thats all it is:thumb:


and it's appreciated.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

No, I just finished watching it with my grandson. I am what I am and thats all that I am. Couldn't help myself, back to your goat...


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

HappyFarmer said:


> 1cc per 100#'s. IM, Intra Muscular. Stab the needle into the meaty portion of her leg & push the plunger. Hold her as she will probably jump.
> Do you have Ephiphrine on hand for an allergic reaction? Has shehad Banamine before?
> HF


Thank you

No - she has not ever had Banamine. If I knew how to get my hands on epinephrine, believe me, I would.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

I would if nothing else can be found actually get her adjusted, any equine chiro would do, but its probably going to cost as much as the goat is worth.
Goats are highly resilient to some things and it could be she got butted really hard, who knows. 
the flip flopping hair can be a sign of the copper deficiency or worms, or diet lol... Just because you get a clean fecal does not mean you dont have worms, especially in winter when they are more dormant. Are you or the vet using a mcmaster slide when doing the fecal?
I dont use medicated feeds and not pro grain with goats but many of my fellow goaters use the feed.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

HappyFarmer said:


> No, I just finished watching it with my grandson. I am what I am and thats all that I am. Couldn't help myself, back to your goat...


Ahhhh...... ; )


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

You can get scripts from your vet or VetServe USA via UPS


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Cannon_Farms said:


> I would if nothing else can be found actually get her adjusted, any equine chiro would do, but its probably going to cost as much as the goat is worth.
> 
> Are you or the vet using a mcmaster slide when doing the fecal?
> I dont use medicated feeds and not pro grain with goats but many of my fellow goaters use the feed.


That goat cost me 75 bucks. She's a pet and she provides NOTHING! ; ) And I just lost my job. I'm going to get some friends to come over and each of us grab a leg.

Vet does the fecal - have no idea what they use or what a mcmaster slide even is!

What is pro grain? I don't care for the idea of medicated grain.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

HappyFarmer said:


> You can get scripts from your vet or VetServe USA via UPS


Wow! Really? Thanks!


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

I'm going to try to post a video of her walking. Unfortunately you'll have to turn your head 90 degrees to view it


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

videos:
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0BwejlCuuXnUVNGM1MTQ5OTUtN2RiOS00ZGIzLTg3ZWEtZjliOTkyY2FkYzZk&hl=en

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0BwejlCuuXnUVYmE1YTUzZTEtYzk1YS00NDBjLWJkODYtMDllMmFjMTg0YTE0&hl=en


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

If I knew how to get my hands on epinephrine, believe me, I would.[/QUOTE]

You can get it from the vet if you have a good goat vet. I have poked many goats and never had a problem, hopefully you will have that much luck, its an awful feeling to give an animal something and it die shortly after when you where only trying to help, Ive been assisting when horses, cats and dogs have went down.

You can feed black oil sunflower oil seeds to increase the coat condition quality.

I dont have an after, Ill post it in the morning, but heres a shot of my buck when I first got him, you can clearly see the cry out of the need for copper, the poor feller spend hours at the salt when he first got here, note the crooked legs in the front, theres a big difference in what he looks like now
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd61/deskidsncritters/100_0015.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd61/deskidsncritters/100_0014.jpg

and here is my new doe, who I have just gave a bolus to
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd61/deskidsncritters/100_0108.jpg


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## SLD Farm (Dec 19, 2007)

I am surpirised no one has mentioned the one things that came immediately to mind. I think I know what you are up against. The spine curved suddenly followed with favoring of a leg/foot? 
I had a buck that came down with a curved spine, dragging of a hind leg and what seemed like the front half and back half didn't communicate well when walking. It was meningeal worm, also known as deer worm. She probably got infected in the late fall, the incubation period is that long.
You need to hit her hard with wormer before the parasite does further damage and she goes down. She can be paralysed. More info here http://www.jackmauldin.com/meningeal_worm.htm

This is how I treated him. Never fixed the spine but he survived and never went down on me.
Cattle Injectable Ivomec, 3X the cattle dose, every other day for 3 days. Sub Q.
2cc B complex daily for 2 weeks.
1cc Banamine daily for swelling. Igave this for 1 week.
Repeat worming procedure at 10days.

If it is not "the worm" I will be very surprised. Good Luck. If it is meningeal worm you are going to need it.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Im sorry to hear you lost your job, if you are on my side of town I can tell you where find good cheap feed.
Profeed isnt a feed, Im just not a fan of grain for animals not meant to eat them, I doesnt bother me in good moderation but you should improve hay or feed alfalfa pellets or hay streacher type, forage based anyway.
Nobel goat is medicated for coccidia, unless you have a problem with it, and have treated that problem the medicated feeds are useless and many will have opinions on different ends of how effective it is.
Go to dairygoatinfo.com and look up doing your own fecals in goat 101 I believe on the slides


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

I thought some one had mentioned the deer worm or more scientifically known as the meningeal worm. It can fit the profile very well but is normally one of those things that take time to do allot of damage and swelling of the spine is common, I dont know if I have ever read it can cause the spine to go crooked, but its a newly recognized problem so there is no set classic symptoms, so I will put that in the I have heard info bank. the lame leg can be a valid symptom. According to my vet the worm takes as long as 6 months to start any damage. Your doe could have stepped on something like fence for instance and hurt her foot however.

Good news is that you can use a combo of ivomectrin (2.99 for horse wormer at tractor supply) and safeguard, though I dont care for safeguard my vet insist it helps, it cant hurt.

There is allot of guesstamation in goat care


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Oh Lord - you have GOT to be kidding. A brain worm? I swear, I give up. One thing is for sure, there are a lot of deer here. And it's been very wet - standing water in the pasture - but not for the last 6 months, that's for sure. So I guess you cannot test for this?

SLD - actually it was not 'spine curved suddenly followed with favoring of a leg/foot'. It was the the opposite...sore foot/leg and *then* the curved spine. She doesn't seem to be dragging her leg.

If you all have a second to look at the video maybe you can see what I mean.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

I cant look at the video with my browser.
Its rare that the goats get that worm, a snail has to cross over deer poop, and then the goats have to eat where the snail has been, not to mention that the deer has to actually have it.
If your deworming with ivomectrin products then I would say the odds are slim but it can be, it can be anything with goats.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Cannon_Farms said:


> Im sorry to hear you lost your job, if you are on my side of town I can tell you where find good cheap feed.
> Profeed isnt a feed, Im just not a fan of grain for animals not meant to eat them, I doesnt bother me in good moderation but you should improve hay or feed alfalfa pellets or hay streacher type, forage based anyway.
> Nobel goat is medicated for coccidia, unless you have a problem with it, and have treated that problem the medicated feeds are useless and many will have opinions on different ends of how effective it is.
> Go to dairygoatinfo.com and look up doing your own fecals in goat 101 I believe on the slides


I'm pretty sure I'm not using the medicated Noble - there is one, but there is also this: http://goat.purinamills.com/OURPRODUCTS/PRODUCTS/NobleGoatDairyParlor16/default.aspx . I'll check - thanks

I'm between Stockbridge and Conyers so Monroe might be a bit of a haul. You think?

I've thought about doing my own fecals, but I just can't do everything here. Perhaps you'll do them for me for a fee...? : )

BTW - do you know a equine chiro in the area?


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Cannon_Farms said:


> I cant look at the video with my browser.
> 
> Its rare that the goats get that worm, a snail has to cross over deer poop, and then the goats have to eat where the snail has been, not to mention that the deer has to actually have it.
> If your deworming with ivomectrin products then I would say the odds are slim but it can be, it can be anything with goats.



I SURE hope you're right about the slim chance.

Here's the video on youtube:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5aL_J46Mo4[/ame]

one more to load


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Feb 17, 2003)

I posted about Thymine deficiency(good case) and or Meningeal worm/Deer Worm (bad case) but my post seems to have disappeared. 

I had two go down with it last year, both different cases, both out of season/ not normal symptoms. But Necropsy confirmed it.

One doe did act OK one day and then lame next. It was in her spine, never made it to brain. Just depends where the worm "hatches' out. Time frame here makes sense to me. Had to hit it hard SQ with ivomec, oral will not do it. Banamine daily will keep swelling down.

Polio/thiamine deficiency treatment is B1 at high dosages. Extra will pass out of body and give her funny colored urine. Will work almost instantly if it is problem.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

other youtube video
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS9PcoKCaww&feature=channel[/ame]


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

valsey said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm not using the medicated Noble - there is one, but there is also this: http://goat.purinamills.com/OURPRODUCTS/PRODUCTS/NobleGoatDairyParlor16/default.aspx . I'll check - thanks
> 
> I'm between Stockbridge and Conyers so Monroe might be a bit of a haul. You think?
> 
> ...


Not really, im 25 miles from Salem rd, but the feed store I use (funny Im a manager at TSC but buy my feed somewhere else) is a bit of a haul for you, but if you can buy in bulk its worth it, I save $4 a bag on alfalfa pellets and get them for $10, four bags feed my herd for two weeks.
Goat poop is hard to do fecals on and I dont have a scope anymore so Im lazy and have my vet do them for $5

I dont know personally off the top of my head a equine chiro but if you find one I know people that would know the reputation of that person, and may can find one.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Natural Beauty Farm said:


> I posted about Thymine deficiency(good case) and or Meningeal worm/Deer Worm (bad case) but my post seems to have disappeared.
> 
> I had two go down with it last year, both different cases, both out of season/ not normal symptoms. But Necropsy confirmed it.
> 
> ...


Oh my...I truly hope you are wrong, but I will read up on this stuff tonight and make some decisions tomorrow. Thanks so much


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

I just pmd her trying to find out information as the videos kinda of remind me of polio or listerosis but the goat could have some hoof issues to make her walk that away.
I can send some thiamine with my husband tomorrow if you want to pick some up, however if its the start of polio tomorrow may be too late, this is why I asked about if you had any B12, its not as good but can buy you a little bit of time.

Its really hard to figure out things over a pc because you cant acutally see the animal but I can tell you by the video I would have popped one of mine with thiamine if they suddenly walked like that, but if its been a few days that the goat has done this, then its probably back to the meningeal worm or copper issue


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

*Everybody* - thank you so much for all your insight. There are 7 cats milling around me waiting for supper, so I'm off of here for a bit. PLEASE feel free to add any other ideas you (or anyone) might have. And if you get a chance to see the video, it might help - doesn't show a lot.

More later - thanks again - you are all so helpful


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

btw, my DH works off Salem rd exit 84 in Conyers


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

its soo hard to tell the you tube was definatly a better video at least it wasnt sideways.
I may can come out saturday and give you my best opinion if you cant afford a vet right now, or you can haul her to the TSC in Monroe anytime after 12 tomorrow and Ill be there, can can bring what you would need to treat her


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Cannon_Farms said:


> I just pmd her trying to find out information as the videos kinda of remind me of polio or listerosis but the goat could have some hoof issues to make her walk that away.
> I can send some thiamine with my husband tomorrow if you want to pick some up, however if its the start of polio tomorrow may be too late, this is why I asked about if you had any B12, its not as good but can buy you a little bit of time.
> 
> Its really hard to figure out things over a pc because you cant acutally see the animal but I can tell you by the video I would have popped one of mine with thiamine if they suddenly walked like that, but if its been a few days that the goat has done this, then its probably back to the meningeal worm or copper issue


Couple more questions - sorry.

So you see how she's curved? She kind of walks that way with the back and forth head thing normally - it s hard to tell on a computer.

We don't think she's simply favoring her leg? 

I'll read up on polio and listerosis - don't know a thing about them. This 'curvature' thing just started today.

Sorry - what do you mean 'I just pmd her'? Who? and 'send some thiamine with my husband tomorrow'? To TSC?


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Cannon_Farms said:


> btw, my DH works off Salem rd exit 84 in Conyers


oh - now I get it

You are so nice for offering.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Do you have a video of the rear legs? I didn't see any dragging of the legs, from what I've read they get paralyzed she may be in the early stages, no first hand experience with MW. SLD farms & others do so it may help them help you identify.

Worming her with Ivermec would be a good idea, she hasn't been wormed in 9months. Looks like process of elimination here. Observe after the Banamine, Ivermec & observe, if there is no improvement treat aggressively for M.W. Yes I agree it is hard to diagnose, it's great Cannon Farms is so close & willing to help you, way to go C.F!

She seems to be straddling her front legs-kinda like keeping her balance? Hard to tell maybe you can view it right-ways to confirm. She looks stiff anyways.

HF


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

HappyFarmer said:


> Do you have a video of the rear legs? I didn't see any dragging of the legs, from what I've read they get paralyzed she may be in the early stages, no first hand experience with MW. SLD farms & others do so it may help them help you identify.
> 
> Worming her with Ivermec would be a good idea, she hasn't been wormed in 9months. Looks like process of elimination here. Observe after the Banamine, Ivermec & observe, if there is no improvement treat aggressively for M.W. Yes I agree it is hard to diagnose, it's great Cannon Farms is so close & willing to help you, way to go C.F!
> 
> ...


Thanks for checking out the video. Honestly - she's always walked kind of stiff-legged. And she's always done these weird stretches where she stands up on her hind legs with front legs on the wall and arches her back way back with her head and neck stretched back. Weird.

I don't have a video of her hind legs - I'll work on that. No leg dragging.

I think the process of elimination is the way to go, but it may be too late.

I hate these decisions.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Cannon_Farms said:


> its soo hard to tell the you tube was definatly a better video at least it wasnt sideways.
> I may can come out saturday and give you my best opinion if you cant afford a vet right now, or you can haul her to the TSC in Monroe anytime after 12 tomorrow and Ill be there, can can bring what you would need to treat her


I just pmd you


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Just one last post; 
Your goat is not down, so it's not too late. If it's MW you'd be treating her with Ivermec & Banamine anyways, so why not treat her since she hasn't been wormed anyways, then Cannon Farms has graciously offered to look at her & help diagnose in person.

Nothing lost & if it's MW you get a jump on it.
HF


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Im quite puzzled and I dont think this is something that can be solved online, or maybe by anyone other than a vet, but one great thing about this forum is that people are always willing to give help, and the different opinions are priceless.
Im beyond exhausted and am on baby watch, were expecting a litter of baby goats as my doe is huge and shes from a set of quads, so Im about to get loopy and start babbling out of my mind, hey look Im already doing it..

If the goat goes down, Im going to send you my numbers, I cant promise I can come out but you may can come down, but if at all possible get a livestock vet that knows goats involved.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Okay - just took a quick look and I just find it hard to beleive it could be either of these. If either, maybe Listeriosis. But not Polio. Please see bold italic below

Goat Polio and Listeriosis - In most cases, both of these diseases are seen in goats raised under intensive management conditions. Improper feeding, particularly feeding too much grain and too little roughage (hay and forage) is a significant factor in both diseases. 
*They get 1 and one half cups of grain per day - not much. They get more hay than anything and browse mostly*

Polioencephalomalacia (also known as Cerebrocortical Necrosis) is basically thiamine (Vitamin B 1) deficiency. Any change in the rumen's environment that suppresses normal bacterial activity can interfere with thiamine production. Too much grain decreases the pH of the rumen, predisposing the animal to Goat Polio. Glucose cannot be metabolized without thiamine. If thiamine is either not present or exists in an altered form (thiaminase), then brain cells die and severe neurological symptoms appear.
*Again - not much grain and her rumen seems to be working perfectly - no problems at *all.

Causes of thiamine deficiency include feeding moldy hay or grain, using amprollium which is a thiamine inhibitor (brand name CoRid) when treating coccodiosis, feeding molasses-based grains which are prone to mold (horse & mule feeds), eating some species of ferns, sudden changes in diet, the dietary stress of weaning, and reactions to the de-wormers thiabendazole and levamisole. Each of these conditions can suppress Vitamin B1 production. The usage of antibiotics destroys flora in the rumen and can cause thiamine deficiency. It is important to repopulate the gut with live bacteria after using antibiotics or diarrhea (scour) medications.
*She has not been on antibiotics - no moldy hay or grain, no amprollium, no weaning, no wormers. As I said I only grain in the winter and started that about a month ago, but the small amount doesn't seem like it could cause such a change.*


Goat Polio generally occurs in weanlings and very young goats, while Listeriosis most frequently affects adult goats. 

Symptoms of Polioencephalomalacia can be any combination of or all of the following: excitability, "stargazing," uncoordinated staggering and/or weaving (ataxia), circling, diarrhea, muscle tremors, and blindness. 
*Not really her symptoms
*

Listeriosis is brought on by feeding silage, suddenly changing type and kind of feed (grain or hay), parasitism, dramatic weather changes, and advanced stages of pregnancy. The encephalitic form is most common, causing inflammation of the nerves in the goat's brain stem. Symptoms include some or all of the following: depression, decreased appetite, fever, leaning or stumbling or moving in one direction only, head pulled to flank with rigid neck (similar to symptoms of tetanus), facial paralysis on one side, blindness, slack jaw, and drooling. Diarrhea is present only in the strain of Listeriosis which causes abortions and pregnancy toxemia. 
*Dramatic weather changes? For goodness sake - how do you control that? She's not depressed, she has a good appetite. No drooling, slack jaw or blindness. However she is leaning in one direction and her head is pulled a little bit to her flank - but no rigid neck*

jeeze....


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

listerosis is hard and can kill fast, really if either one your goat would be down. Remember what I said, goat medicine is have guesstamation, I would say she had polio before listerosis because she would be down with fever if it was that,

All grain will contain some mold, and they love to eat hay that is on the floor if its raining and its there vrs good clean hay that they have to get wet for.


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## SLD Farm (Dec 19, 2007)

Its not polio. I have had polio and the symptoms are very different. symptoms: stargazing, uncoordinated staggering, drunkenness, apparent blindness, rapid eye moving (jerky, shaky eggball)... Untreated, death in 24-72 hrs. Seen polio and listerios, hope to never see either again.
The video is really to short to see much, IMO. Cannon Farms--Meningeal worm is not as uncommon as you might think. Lots of goats in this area have come down with it. Animals die or are put down everywhere because of "paralysis" and people assume it is caused by an injury. The true cause is never discovered. 
Natural Beauty is completely right, damage done depends where the parasite hatches. If you read the link I posted it says "favoring" a leg. My buck drug his leg, but the worm can cause nerve damage and that was the end result. 
I agree, with goats to often it is a guessing game. So whatever treatment you decide on, good luck to your doe.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

could it be tetanus?


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Not tetnus unless she developed the rocking horse stance overnight, I doubt it would have come on quicker than 2 days. Was she vaccinated? Why are we grasping at straws? Have we ruled out the 3 suggested illnesses & I missed it?

How is she this morning and what have you administered? Is there any improvement or new symptoms?
HF


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

No - it's just me...grasping.

We've not ruled out the suggestions, and frankly - I feel it's best to go with your suggestion of Banamine and worming - then see how it goes. It's 5:15 am and I have yet to get to sleep or go to see how she is - thought I'd wait til the morning. Oh wait...it is morning...

Hate to admit it, but with such a super small operation, I steered clear of vaccinations after the the first couple of years.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Cannon Farms has offered much help which I will possibly accept depending on what I see in the daylight...

what a long night it' s been...


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Good Morning, I think.

Tetnus is pretty obvious if it is that.

Have to leave for work, I'll try to check in later. Please start her on treatment, whatever you decide to treat her with, generally goats go down quick if it's serious and early treatment can make the difference. In most cases treatment won't hurt her until new symptoms arise to sway the diagnosis one way or the other.

HF


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

I agree with the statements that MW is not as rare as you think and since you have 2 of the most important contributing factors- wet ground and deer it is highly likely. It manifests in EACH animal differently. The larvae get lost in migration because the goat is not the natural part of the cycle. The neural damage comes from them trying to find the right pathways to the brain and since each larvae takes a different path thus damaging different tissues each case manifests different symptoms. It it a good suggestion to go ahead and treat since you have not wormed in 9 months. A mistake in wet areas regardless of what fecals say. The problem with treating at this stage is you almost have to kill the animals to kill the larvae.
Best Luck.
B~


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Okay - this is my main question - do any of these possibilities cause pain? I just gave her the shot of Banamine and spent some time with her. She's still walking strangely and with the curve. She *did* seem less bothered by me touching her spine and hind legs after the shot, but the curve is still there. 

Now this is the big indicator to me: when she went to lay down, it was clearly difficult and uncomfortable. When she did get down she was having a hard time finding a comfortable position. I have this on video and will post later on today. I REALLY think it's an injury or trauma because of this. Unless polio, Meningeal worm, laminitis etc can cause pain or discomfort, that's what the symptoms are pointing to in my mind. Am I deluding myself?


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

OK> after looking at the pictures and thinking about it, it appears to me that she got T-boned pretty hard in the hip and is compensating for her injury by putting all her weight on the other leg, hence the appearance of a curved spine. Simple as that.

Banamine and rest, with some b-complex for stress. That's all.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

I really have to agree. And I think once I post the video of her trying to sit down, it will be even more clear. Unfortunately I only had one shot of Banamine. I guess I need to call a vet unless you can recommend something OTC that would be as effective and not mess up her rumen


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

not the best quality, but you can see how difficult it is for Lucy to sit down.:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmS_WZlLNGg[/ame]


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

How sad...I say stick with the Banamine and she needs to kept quiet for a time. No jumping! One or more of her disks has been affected and the Anti-inflamatory in the Banamine will help with that...but then the pain killer will mask the pain and she could possibly re-injure it. Do you have a stall you can put her in? I wouldn't use the Banamine more than a few days though.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

That video is a much much better angle, thanks.

In the video it appears as though she is bending the leg, somewhat less than normal but she is bending it, but movement closer to the hip is limited. It also looks to me like it's the hip. I would try to rotate her hip to see if she didn't pop something out of the socket. Rotating the leg would tell you exactly where the pain was/starts, best while she has the banamine though I would think, a 2-person job probably while she's lying down, who knows if she did it might pop back in place. 

I'm hoping someone who has had MW with their goats takes a look at the video for comparison. I wouldn't suspect MW but I have no experience with it. 
One of our vets sent out a notice this fall, stating that MW cases have been on the rise. Apparently she hasn't seen many cases up until now.

Were you able to meet up with Cannon Farms? 
HF


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Minelson said:


> How sad...I say stick with the Banamine and she needs to kept quiet for a time. No jumping! One or more of her disks has been affected and the Anti-inflamatory in the Banamine will help with that...but then the pain killer will mask the pain and she could possibly re-injure it. Do you have a stall you can put her in? I wouldn't use the Banamine more than a few days though.


Thanks!


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## dragonchick (Oct 10, 2007)

I can't be positive but this does not look like meningeal worm infection. We lost a goat to this and it was horrible. It was a gradual onset of staggering and dragging the legs. This goats pain seems to be more in the right hock as it seems unable/unwilling to bend it. I would be looking very, very closely at that right foot/hock. A very teeny, tiny, speck of a spot can cause considerable pain when you try to put weight on it. Check those dew claws also( I think that's what they are called).


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

HappyFarmer said:


> I would try to rotate her hip to see if she didn't pop something out of the socket.
> 
> I'm hoping someone who has had MW with their goats takes a look at the video for comparison. I wouldn't suspect MW but I have no experience with it.
> 
> ...


It just seems like trauma or injury - she looks like she's in pain. Do you think MW would cause pain?

I need to call Cannon Farms - my day has gone to the dogs

I think I'm going back to the idea of a chiro - I highly doubt that I could put a hip back into place. I would probably do more harm than good.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

dragonchick said:


> I can't be positive but this does not look like meningeal worm infection. We lost a goat to this and it was horrible. It was a gradual onset of staggering and dragging the legs. This goats pain seems to be more in the right hock as it seems unable/unwilling to bend it. I would be looking very, very closely at that right foot/hock. A very teeny, tiny, speck of a spot can cause considerable pain when you try to put weight on it. Check those dew claws also( I think that's what they are called).


Thanks - I will


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

If it were to go back into place, it would be by rotating it. Anything more than that & I think you'd need a vet or an experienced livestock owner-they've dealt with many situations.

I don't know how painful MW is. Someone else will have to answer that. If it is MW without treatment she will suffer and die. Ivermec is cheap (dosewise). 

I do know that goat is in pain. As was suggested I think it would be best for her to be in a smaller enclosed area, one where she can get some excercise if she wants, but rest peacably "viewing" her friend(s). 

Yes she's in pain. Get her some pain meds and treat her. I understand you cannot take her to the vet at this time. Get someone to look at her in person. If she continues to be in pain, while on meds, and you see no improvement in a few days, I would put her down. Continuing as is with no diagnosis & proper treatment, no improvement would be cruel. 

This may sound inhumane to some, but as goat stewards it is our responsibility to take care of our animals, one way or the other.

HF


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

dragonchick said:


> I can't be positive but this does not look like meningeal worm infection. We lost a goat to this and it was horrible. It was a gradual onset of staggering and dragging the legs. This goats pain seems to be more in the right hock as it seems unable/unwilling to bend it. I would be looking very, very closely at that right foot/hock. A very teeny, tiny, speck of a spot can cause considerable pain when you try to put weight on it. Check those dew claws also( I think that's what they are called).


Stupid question - you think its the right side. Right when looking at her from the front or the back?


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

HappyFarmer said:


> If she continues to be in pain, while on meds, and you see no improvement in a few days, I would put her down. Continuing as is with no diagnosis & proper treatment, no improvement would be cruel.
> 
> This may sound inhumane to some, but as goat stewards it is our responsibility to take care of our animals, one way or the other.
> 
> HF


I don't think I can put her down. I'll get pain meds and call the vet.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

I think it would be best to have someone look at her. We're just going back & forth here, guessing as others have said, there's been some very good guesses I might add. Heck that's what the vet will do, but he/she will have the advantage of seeing her in person, and the treatments on hand, explain your situation & they may give you a break on the cost.

Please keep us updated. I've been thinking of her all day, wondering how she was doing.
HF


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## dragonchick (Oct 10, 2007)

valsey said:


> Stupid question - you think its the right side. Right when looking at her from the front or the back?


As in facing the back of the goat. If you look at the video again its the side she lays down on.


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## dm9960 (Nov 26, 2009)

I wish I could help. Poor baby, is definitely hurting.


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

Definitely an injury. In the hip/pelvic area.

Last season, I had a huge buckling out of my best doe get hit in the area between the hip and the stifle joint. He hopped around for a few days until I was finally able to catch him and when I did, he had a break in the leg, just above the stifle joint. Right in a place where it could not be splinted. Since the swelling kept the bones on place, I let him heal on his own and as he did, the area developed a huge hematoma/abscess that drained with a lot of liquid pus and formed a big bone callus where the break was.. He also curved his spine when walking.

Of course, he was the one I was planning on keeping.


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Feb 17, 2003)

Sorry, but that is exactly like how my goats were walking and laying down. They were having to think about each step so that they did not fall flat on their face. Ivomec is cheap, you have not wormed in a while, do it, IM.
Mine were in pain too from MW, the larva was eating its way through the bone marrow. Vets did not want to let me dose them with Banamine daily. That's why I put them down and did a necropsy, best $35 I ever spent. Showed 8 vets that my thoughts were correct with our rainy weather last summer. First one went slow, 6 weeks of good days and bad. MW was in her lower spine. She stood for the vets to take blood and run tests, even walked across the lab to check things out. Trust me it was a hard thing to see and do, but she was in pain and I knew I had done everything for her. The Ivomec had done its job, but I did not do it soon enough because I had her on a worming schedule (SQ) and everyone told me it couldn't be MW. The damage was done, vets let me observe and the worm had made swiss cheese of my girl. I hope to never see damage like that again. Second went quick within a week they were stumbling and unable to stand, drooling. No chance for Ivomec to work. MW was in the brain on Necropsy. Two thousand dollar animals lost to MW, now Bambi gets chased away by three dogs 24/7.

If she just had an injury, she would not lay down like that. She would be favoring the injury. You would know just by looking at her where the injury was.


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

Ummm, yes she would lay down like that- seen it like this several times- depends on where the bruising is.

I doubt one would see Menengial worm in the winter like we have had. There are no snails right now. 

This is an injury. More likely 'not' dislocated, but badly bruised. Bone bruises hurt pretty powerful. You will likely see improvement in a week or so. Do 'range of motion' exercises. And find out who the 'bully' doe is.

Banamine for 4 days, unless the vet says more. It can harm kidneys. Absorbine liniment and Arnica gel are also good for topical use.

Most of all- DO NOT PUT THIS DOE DOWN! Give her time.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Wow - lots of different ideas here!

My neighbor has Banamine and is willing to sell me 6 ccs (2 per day for 3 days is my plan). She also has a equine chiro I can contact. I'll call the vet, but I think he only does farm trips on Thursdays. 

I'm going out to check on her now and will report back.

Thanks, all!


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

betsy h. said:


> And find out who the 'bully' doe is.


The 'bully' doe is probably that feisty donkey


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Does it look like she's thinking of every step in this new video?
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pci_aSqzblY[/ame]


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I don't have any advice for you, just checking in to see how she's doing & to let you know I'm keeping my fingers crossed for both of you! Poor thing I hope she can come out fo this.

I would do like Minelson said & keep her in a confined area to keep from injuring anymore & Banamine.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

not really any changes either way today.

I have a call in to the vet - have given Banamine

She appears to be walking with her rear left foot / hoof pointed outwards - had not noticed that before.

One strange thing - when I was rubbing my hand along her back she peed. This happened twice. Could this be an organ issue? Kidneys?


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

OK> she looks much better in this video- the banamine has helped and she is definitely on the mend. She looks like she has a slight 'gimp' in the right rear, but not like it was.

In the first video, she tucked the injured foot up under her so she could use her good rear foot to get up on. Hence the tender positioning of her hurt foot.

Give her a couple more days and she'll be almost back to normal......


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

betsy h. said:


> OK> she looks much better in this video- the banamine has helped and she is definitely on the mend. She looks like she has a slight 'gimp' in the right rear, but not like it was.
> 
> In the first video, she tucked the injured foot up under her so she could use her good rear foot to get up on. Hence the tender positioning of her hurt foot.
> 
> Give her a couple more days and she'll be almost back to normal......


Actually that video was shot just before the one of her sitting down. Still - I like your viewpoint! Love it actually.


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## garyh141 (Mar 7, 2008)

valsey said:


> If I knew how to get my hands on epinephrine, believe me, I would.


You beg, threaten, cry, whatever it takes to get your vet to either sell you a dose or to give you a script. Took me SEVERAL tries but I now have "1" dose.:hammer:
Sandra


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Wow, big difference there! 

What did you treat her with?
HF


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Same day, shot just before the video of her sitting down. Been treating with Banamine. No vet (called 2) has returned my call yet


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Good job on the treatment. It sounds like it's an injury. Have you noticed her back straightening with the Banamine?
HF


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

HappyFarmer said:


> Good job on the treatment. It sounds like it's an injury. Have you noticed her back straightening with the Banamine?
> HF


Thank you. She really could use just one more dose, but I don't think I'm going to be able to get my hands on it.

This is day 4 - I would think if nothing has gotten worse, that it is an injury. 

However - a friend of a friend who is a vet tech just saw the video and we spoke. The first thing she said is 'it's neurological'. So again - I'm undecided. 

I will worm her as suggested earlier in the thread - can't hurt - and hope that a vet can get out here on Monday.

This is so worrisome.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

SLD Farm said:


> I am surpirised no one has mentioned the one things that came immediately to mind. I think I know what you are up against. The spine curved suddenly followed with favoring of a leg/foot?
> I had a buck that came down with a curved spine, dragging of a hind leg and what seemed like the front half and back half didn't communicate well when walking. It was meningeal worm, also known as deer worm. She probably got infected in the late fall, the incubation period is that long.
> You need to hit her hard with wormer before the parasite does further damage and she goes down.


Well Shannon - I think you might be right about this. And even if you aren't, worming them can't hurt. I don't know why I didn't put two and two together, but when I went out today I noticed that Lucy had a sore on her neck. She and the other Nubian had what I thought was lice or mange a while back. Thought it was under control (treated them with pyrethrum). But Lucy seems to be itching more. I read the link you sent and it mentioned itching. I did a search and found pictures and it looks a LOT like Lucy's sores. (see http://users.scpwildblue.com/dhamric1963/meningeal_worm.htm)

So my questions are: would you treat the entire hred? Just the two Nubians? I just gave the two Nubians 3.5 cc each SQ, but I'm not sure if I should do the toggs. Evidently this is ingested or spread in milk - I don't see that it's actually 'contagious'. Anyone know? Any more advice?

Everyone has been so helpful and I really appreciate it.


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

They chew holes in themselves when the larvae are migrating it is horrid they will make huge wounds. You do have MW. Neuro symptoms are from the damage of migration paths. That bladder story is pretty common. It is not contagious from animal to animal. Read about the life cycle. It is very specific and since you have the host snail and the deer you need to worm your whole herd for prevention. What is ingested in the milk? nothing to do with MW is anything but eating snails. Please check your dosages and your wormer type to make sure it does the job. This is toxic on the borderline of dangerous at this stage to kill the larvae so it is best to get them while in the stage that is in the digestive system. We had to dose at 3 times normal levels for 5 days and the doe was down for several days loopy acting but recovered and is still a very productive animal kidding and milking normally. Get a vet to give you dosage advice.
http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/deerworm.html
B~


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Briza said:


> They chew holes in themselves when the larvae are migrating it is horrid they will make huge wounds. You do have MW. Neuro symptoms are from the damage of migration paths. That bladder story is pretty common. It is not contagious from animal to animal. Read about the life cycle. It is very specific and since you have the host snail and the deer you need to worm your whole herd for prevention. What is ingested in the milk? nothing to do with MW is anything but eating snails. Please check your dosages and your wormer type to make sure it does the job. This is toxic on the borderline of dangerous at this stage to kill the larvae so it is best to get them while in the stage that is in the digestive system. We had to dose at 3 times normal levels for 5 days and the doe was down for several days loopy acting but recovered and is still a very productive animal kidding and milking normally. Get a vet to give you dosage advice.
> http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/deerworm.html
> B~


Thank you so much for your post. I still have a few questions - for you or anyone who can help. 

If this isn't 'contagious' should I just assume that 2 of my goats ate the wrong snail? Seems so unlikely. And those snails had to be infected too I guess.

So I guess the recommendation here is to treat the two Nubians with the sores for MW, but not the others? But treat the others preventively, correct?

things I've read on the internet say that I should give 1cc/55lbs for 3 days in a row followed by a double-the-cattle dosage of fenbendazole (Safeguard or Panacur) for five days. Banamine can be useful in alleviating the inflammation of nerve tissue. Dexamethozone may also be used.

Does that sound right? Any help is appreciated

Calls into the vet so far have been unproductive - I'll keep trying ,but the info from folks on this forum seem to be more helpful


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Feb 17, 2003)

betsy h. said:


> I doubt one would see Menengial worm in the winter like we have had. There are no snails right now.


The OP stated they had not wormed for awhile so treating her with Ivomec was not going to hurt in covering bases. I hope it is just bruising. But I have been through MW, the quicker you start treatment, the better the outcome.


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Feb 17, 2003)

Ivomec, Dex and Banamine at the same time for MW.
Ivomec kills the worms
Dex for swelling
Banamine for pain control and to keep her from putting holes in her side

Safeguard is useless IMO for any worms.


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Feb 17, 2003)

Ivomec injectable is used 1cc per 25lbs orally normally to deworm.
For MW you do it orally AND give the same dose injected.

ONCE


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Natural Beauty Farm said:


> Ivomec injectable is used 1cc per 25lbs orally normally to deworm.
> For MW you do it orally AND give the same dose injected.
> 
> ONCE


Forgive me - I'm still a bit confused. I read that you treat 3 days in a row 1cc per 50 pounds with ivermectin injected SQ. http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/meningealworm.html I did that yesterday - 190 lb goats, gave 3.5cc to each Nubian in question (with sores). Was that correct? Should I have also wormed with the same stuff and the same amount orally too?

Would you treat the other 3 goats that are not showing any symptoms? And if so, the same amount etc?

If I can't get any Dexamethozone or banamine will she be okay? If I do get some, can you tell me the doses? 

I think I'm going to start a new thread with these questions too.

Thank you


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## dragonchick (Oct 10, 2007)

Only Ivermectin PLUS will kill MW, the regular stuff has no affect.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

On the bright side....

I have a 3/4 nubian doe born with spine curvature, quite obvious but not painful who is perfectly healthy...she's almost 2 and freshened last April and still in milk....she runs and jumps and eats just fine.

I believe that it was just a freak thing..her baby was normal, but I did have to pull him.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

dragonchick said:


> Only Ivermectin PLUS will kill MW, the regular stuff has no affect.


I don't understand this. The only difference is the plus has a flukicide. Is it the clorsulon that kills the MW or the Ivomec?

_Now, Merial Limited combines ivermectin, the active ingredient of IVOMEC, with clorsulon, an effective adult flukicide._


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Feb 17, 2003)

valsey said:


> Forgive me - I'm still a bit confused. I read that you treat 3 days in a row 1cc per 50 pounds with ivermectin injected SQ. http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/meningealworm.html I did that yesterday - 190 lb goats, gave 3.5cc to each Nubian in question (with sores). Was that correct? Should I have also wormed with the same stuff and the same amount orally too?
> 
> Would you treat the other 3 goats that are not showing any symptoms? And if so, the same amount etc?
> 
> ...


The new information out there that I used was what I wrote and used. So many sites are out of date, you just have to keep reading and see what works for you. I know that a lot of breeders have upped their dosage of wormers, because it was just breeding super worms. Killing the weak ones, but the more resistant ones were just coming back stronger. Goats have a high metabolism and very little stays in their system long. With MW I had to take everything to the limit and hope for the best. Like I said everybody I've talked to said if its caught early then the animal can be saved. I had a steep learning curve and waited too long for my girls. With you being in GA, I personally would try it. But that is going to have to be your decision. I'm not there to say yes it is or no it's not. You will have to decide if she is bruised or not. You did say there was a donkey in the pasture, so it is possible that they got into it. I can only go by my experience and the fact of your location it is possible. We have had snails here on warm days this winter, along with snakes, salamanders, frogs, weather is crazy.

From my file:
I use dex 1cc per 100lbs for first 3 days, 1/2 cc per 100 lbs day 4 through 6
Banamine is 1cc per 100lbs for no more than 6 days tops.

I will warn you that it is a rough treatment, she'll be loopy while it works. If she is pregnant she will abort. You'll have to make sure she gets up regularly and pees and poops. Watch for pneumonia to set it and treat her with antibiotics if it happens.

I would do fecals on the others and go from there. You are not going to see MW in a fecal though, but it will tell you where you are at on your maintenance for your herd.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Natural Beauty Farm said:


> The new information out there that I used was what I wrote and used. So many sites are out of date, you just have to keep reading and see what works for you. ... With MW I had to take everything to the limit and hope for the best. Like I said everybody I've talked to said if its caught early then the animal can be saved.
> 
> I had a steep learning curve and waited too long for my girls.
> 
> ...


Thanks.

I feel I need to do the worming - the sores from her scratching just seems too coincidental. And there are deer here. 

I agree - the weather is crazy. It's been wet forever. I have standing water in the pasture and frogs out there that I have NEVER heard in the winter before.

I'll keep an eye out for pneumonia, but so far she's be up and alert. Maybe I caught it quickly enough.

Thanks again


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## dragonchick (Oct 10, 2007)

I was told by my vet that it was the flukicide in the Plus that kills the Meningeal worm larvae that causes the damage and that the plain stuff wouldn't work. Hes also the one that told me that it must be injected as orally didn't work either.


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

Ummmm, the doe is probably scratching because of lice- it is the time of the year for that. Some CoRal, DE, Permethrin, etc. you can get at the feed store. 

It is *NOT* the time of year for snails, so it is most likely *NOT* MW! If it were MW, she;d also be leaning against the wall because she had lost her balance. That doe has great balance in those videos.

Lice are common, MW is not. When you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras. Occam's razor tells us the simplest answer is most likely the one you are looking for-


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

betsy h. said:


> Ummmm, the doe is probably scratching because of lice- it is the time of the year for that. Some CoRal, DE, Permethrin, etc. you can get at the feed store.
> 
> It is *NOT* the time of year for snails, so it is most likely *NOT* MW! If it were MW, she;d also be leaning against the wall because she had lost her balance. That doe has great balance in those videos.
> 
> Lice are common, MW is not. When you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras. Occam's razor tells us the simplest answer is most likely the one you are looking for-


I thought lice or mange mites too - that was about a month ago and I treated then.

True - it is not the time of year for MW, but it was a couple of months ago when they could have contracted it then. The information I've read says it takes a while for the cycle. Am I reading this wrong?

Anyway - a vet will be out this afternoon and maybe he'll have some answers. And if it is MW, at least I've treated for it.

_P. tenuis â The White-tailed Deer ParasiteâBrain wormsâ (meningeal worms) can affect sheep, goats, llamas, alpacas, moose and other exotic small ruminants
by M. Kopcha, D.V.M., M.S., J. S. Rook, D.V.M. & D. Hostetler, D.V.MMSU Extension & Ag. Experiment Station
Michigan State UniversityCollege of Veterinary Medicine

White-tailed deer may he parasitized by P. tenuis year-round.However, the neurologic disease seen in aberrant hosts has aseasonal occurrence that starts in the late summer and continues until a hard freeze occurs. A cool, moist summer and/or a mildwinter may extend the period during which the disease occurs.

To understand this disease and how to prevent or minimize its occurrence, it is important to understand the life cycle of P.tenuis in the White-tailed deer and what happens when the parasite is ingested by susceptible ruminants. The life cycle is as follows: adult meningeal worms live in the deer's central nervous system (brain and spinal cord) and produce eggs which hatch into larvae. The larvae migrate from the deer'scentral nervous system to the lungs, where they are coughed into the mouth, swallowed and passed from the intestinal tract with the manure. *This portion of the life cycle takes approximately three months*. After excreted in the manure, larvae must continue their development in an intermediate host (certain land-dwelling snails and slugs) *for another three to four weeks* until they reach their infective stage. White-tailed deer become infested with P. tenuis by eating these snails or slugs that contain the infective stage of the larvae. Once ingested, the larvae migrate through the deerâs gut and eventually move into their central nervous system where they mature into adults, produce eggs, and the cycle begins again. 

Animals pastured in lowland areas frequented by infected White-tailed deer are prime candidates for exposure to snails containing P. tenuis larvae. *When such animals develop neurological problems during the late summer through early winter in the Upper Midwest (the season for exposure may be longer in other parts of the country), âbrain wormsâ are a likely possibility.*_


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Also - another poster wrote:
And BTW, it takes several weeks, maybe months, from the time of ingestion for the worm larva to migrate to the nerve tissue inside the goat, so whether there are any snails (or more importantly slugs) around now doesn't matter. It's whether they were around months ago. If you live in Georgia you have slugs everywhere. They are found on the bottoms of leaves in the fall.

I believe she got her info from The veterinarian School at UGA


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

Goats are going to scratch, just like they cough. 

I've seen MW before- it ain't pretty. She'd have been far worse than what you say before now. Not everything is something to worry about and usually resolves itself if you let it. They did it before we domesticated them and they'll be doing it after we've gone.....

Horses, not zebras.......


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

betsy h. said:


> Goats are going to scratch, just like they cough.
> 
> I've seen MW before- it ain't pretty. She'd have been far worse than what you say before now. Not everything is something to worry about and usually resolves itself if you let it. They did it before we domesticated them and they'll be doing it after we've gone.....
> 
> Horses, not zebras.......


Oh I totally agree that not everything is something to worry about - absolutely. A curved spine seemed like something to worry about, to me. The scratching was just another clue to the mystery.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

After treating for lice the bedding & any harbouring areas should be cleaned out & disposed(preferably burned but not all can do that anymore). A re-treatment is often necessary, especially in winter when they are inside often.

What was the vet's opinion?
HF


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

The jury's still out. The vet is unsure right now but is leaning towards something neurological...not injury. Very nice vet, but just starting his career so he wants to talk to some colleagues before diagnosing. 

He did take a skin scraping of the sores - maybe that will narrow things down. He gave her 1.5ccs of Thiamine and some Dex. We also wormed her again. He also left me with two more shots of thiamine.

He did not feel anything like a tumor. Temp was normal. Rumen good. Said he thought her right hind leg may have begun to atrophy - basically, he thinks she's *bending* that way...why? not sure.

Spoke with my original vet too - where this vet is working - and he also mentioned an inner ear thing...any thoughts on that...?


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## Starsmom (Nov 7, 2004)

Wow, I really hope you get this figured out. She is a sweet looking little thing. The thing I noticed is she does appear in pain. I noticed in the video that as she is walking, her head is moving up and down with each step. Haven't had that experience with my goats, but I do know when my horses are in pain caused by movement, their heads bob with each step. Just my 2cents. I really hope you get this figured out. Even though she is in pain, she does appear eager and not depressed, so you still have time to figure things out. I feel like she took a hard hit. A spine compression can cause pain in the legs and that can lead to compensating for the injuries that can/will lead to additional problems such as atrophy. This is quite the puzzle and I do hope you figure it out soon.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Still have heard nothing from the vet. Lucy hasn't changed. I am so stumped. Maybe it is an injury. Argggghhh! And the vet goes out of town tomorrow. 

Poor Lucy. I don't know what to do. I think I'm going to ask the 'boss' vet to come out with a field xray.... ?


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

I really don't think any symptoms show polio or listeriosis. 

Not sure about MW either...the worming didn't seem to do anything. She's still itching also.


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## Starsmom (Nov 7, 2004)

I think an x-ray is a great idea. That will at least tell you if you are dealing with an injury. I just feel that if she had a disease such as polio or the like, she would be down or dead by now. I may be wrong, but I truly think you are dealing with a injury.


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

Valsey- please consider taking time to clear your private messages. Your mailbox is full. DO NOT depend on a vet for help with a goat. They just don't know about them. What they learn about goats they learn from goat owners. This is not a quick fix. Nothing is a quick fix by the time you have so many symptoms like this. Neuro damage in extremities is often MW. Get on with the treatment. Every minute you waffle means more damage you cannot undo.
The lice is a red herring- they never cause enough itching for sores into flesh.
In conjunction with the other symptoms this is not 'just scratching'. Casual attitudes are the death of goats. Mw manifests differently in each case since it is NOT a normal parasite of the goat the results are different each time. Seeing it in one case does not mean all cases will progress the same. You are fortunate you have had time to piddle around. Treat the goat for MW and nothing will be lost but she might be saved. You don't need a jury on this- you need to act. With goat problems you cannot wait and see. You will not see relief from the symptoms until the larvae are dead and the sores have healed. You don't understand the damage already done to expect her to improve just because you gave her some wormer. If this was a person it would be in the hospital. Muscles don't atrophy from inner ear problems jeepers...see what I mean about vets and goats!!!
B


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Briza said:


> Valsey- please consider taking time to clear your private messages. Your mailbox is full. DO NOT depend on a vet for help with a goat. They just don't know about them. What they learn about goats they learn from goat owners. This is not a quick fix. Nothing is a quick fix by the time you have so many symptoms like this. Neuro damage in extremities is often MW. Get on with the treatment. Every minute you waffle means more damage you cannot undo.
> The lice is a red herring- they never cause enough itching for sores into flesh.
> In conjunction with the other symptoms this is not 'just scratching'. Casual attitudes are the death of goats. Mw manifests differently in each case since it is NOT a normal parasite of the goat the results are different each time. Seeing it in one case does not mean all cases will progress the same. You are fortunate you have had time to piddle around. Treat the goat for MW and nothing will be lost but she might be saved. You don't need a jury on this- you need to act. With goat problems you cannot wait and see. You will not see relief from the symptoms until the larvae are dead and the sores have healed. You don't understand the damage already done to expect her to improve just because you gave her some wormer. If this was a person it would be in the hospital. Muscles don't atrophy from inner ear problems jeepers...see what I mean about vets and goats!!!
> B


I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN! I *HAVE* TREATED HER! (Why does this forum *always* get this way?) Please tell me what you think I have not done to treat MW? I have dewormed her, given banamine, thiamine, and dex. Briza - What do YOU think I'm forgetting?


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

5 days running triple cattle dose ORALLY. 
Your post from Monday said jury still out which made me think you were not continuing treatment. Hope she improves but it will not be fast and neural damage does not always repair. Is she eating normally? Sorry to offend I know it has been hard with so much info flying at you.
I was trying to PM you about Vet Serve. 
B~


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Briza said:


> 5 days running triple cattle dose ORALLY.
> Your post from Monday said jury still out which made me think you were not continuing treatment. Hope she improves but it will not be fast and neural damage does not always repair. Is she eating normally? Sorry to offend I know it has been hard with so much info flying at you.
> I was trying to PM you about Vet Serve.
> B~


'the jury is still out', meaning no answer yet.

I have been treating according to the Tennessee Meat goat recommendation. 

Can you tell me how long after you dosed did your goats stop itching? Is that something that would continue after the worms were killed?


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Briza said:


> 5 days running triple cattle dose ORALLY.
> Your post from Monday said jury still out which made me think you were not continuing treatment. Hope she improves but it will not be fast and neural damage does not always repair. Is she eating normally? Sorry to offend I know it has been hard with so much info flying at you.
> I was trying to PM you about Vet Serve.
> B~


and Yes - she's eating great, no temp, bright etc...


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Briza said:


> 5 days running triple cattle dose ORALLY.
> B~




Everything I have read says dosing orally will do nothing. It must be given SQ.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Let's say the itching is something else - not MW. I have given her Ivermectin for 3 days (3.5cc each time) SQ. Shouldn't that have taken care of any external parasites as well? Why would she still be itching if she's been treated, unless it *is* MW?


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

The young vet called. He said the skin scraping showed nothing. And I don't think it would for MW - correct? He's willing to give me more banamine and dex. He said he would have his boss (the experienced vet) give me a call about this and possibly looking into xrays. But HE feels it's an inner ear infection and I should start antibiotics.

Inner ear infection for a curved spine...?


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

The itching may be as simple as she has started to dump her winter coat.......horses, not zebras.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

I think the only way you confirm MW is post mortum. But I could be wrong. Do NOT beat yourself up. If it actually is MW, I've dealt with it, and as I said before, In our Alpaca's case, nothing could have helped and from my understanding, once they get down and start to have any paralysis, it is nearly hopeless, but again, with a goat, you might have a better chance and she sounds and looks in much better shape than my Alpaca. It hit him over night, he was down and that was it. There would have been no getting him up without extensive slings and such, and even then, they rarely recover. Watching the video, I am not sure if it looks like MW or not. If would be odd to get it at this time of year, but it could happen, I guess. You need to be sure to treat your herd with Ivomec plus, in case, so no one else gets it, and usually you have to practice preventative care for MW in area prone to it with high whitetailed deer populations. 
I think it is great you're trying so hard to help her!


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

deineria said:


> I think it is great you're trying so hard to help her!


Thanks. I'm feeling quite frustrated and helpless at this point.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Seems to me that if there was an ear infection there would be a temperature...but I don't know.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

betsy h. said:


> The itching may be as simple as she has started to dump her winter coat.......horses, not zebras.


You've got to be kidding? Do you think this looks like itching from shedding? 

http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0BwejlCuuXnUVMjc4MzQwMTEtMjI3Mi00YWEyLTlmMWMtNjE2MTNjNjNjNGNh&hl=en

http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0BwejlCuuXnUVNTc1ZDQxOTAtY2RkNi00ODZlLWE4MmMtZTVlNDFkNjFiZmRh&hl=en


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## Starsmom (Nov 7, 2004)

Since pictures are hard to tell, could those itchy spots be part of an injury? Sometimes injuries get itchy and rubbing/scratching makes it worse. Maybe she was beaten up and now since she is injured, getting knocked around even more? I know that goats will pick on an injured goat that they might now pick one had they not be injured. I really hope you get it figured out. I realize you are getting so much info and are suffering from overload, I would sit down and write out all the symptoms you see. Try to determine which ones are related, could be related and not related. Then go from there. Do the best you can do with what you have. Most would not have gone to the extent that you have to save her. I am the same way, I will go above and beyond, most people would put them down and I'm still trying to save them. I will keep trying until they tell me themselves they are ready to go. From you videos, she is a long way from ready to go...Just keep trying to do what is best. You are the one there, only you know what feels right.


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## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

Val, those pictures look _exactly_ like MW infection scratches to me. You can even see the patch of hair worn off down the side of her neck like mine had.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

nancy - can I call you?


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Starsmom said:


> Since pictures are hard to tell, could those itchy spots be part of an injury? Sometimes injuries get itchy and rubbing/scratching makes it worse. Maybe she was beaten up and now since she is injured, getting knocked around even more? I know that goats will pick on an injured goat that they might now pick one had they not be injured. I really hope you get it figured out. I realize you are getting so much info and are suffering from overload, I would sit down and write out all the symptoms you see. Try to determine which ones are related, could be related and not related. Then go from there. Do the best you can do with what you have. Most would not have gone to the extent that you have to save her. I am the same way, I will go above and beyond, most people would put them down and I'm still trying to save them. I will keep trying until they tell me themselves they are ready to go. From you videos, she is a long way from ready to go...Just keep trying to do what is best. You are the one there, only you know what feels right.


Thanks Starsmom - very kind and level headed words there. I appreciate it.


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

Those pics look very familiar.
You may be able to feel the larvae if you will press lightly with finger tips. 
This itching cuz they itch is nonsense. Never does anything else cause them to make holes in their own body. If you have seen her digging at this it is MW. Wounds do not itch to that extent without fungal involvement and there looks to be no oozing.
The larvae will have to be dead for the itching to stop and then there will be the time frame during which the healing of the wounds and carrying off the dead tissues of both the larvae and the wound will cause itching but she should quit doing new damage within a week of the last dose. Don't give up- Don't expect a quick fix you are doing great because this is one of the worst things a goat can deal with. She has the advantage that it got off track in her neck and not hind quarters. Most go down before anyone notices the larvae tracks because of damage in the lower part of the spine. 
If she has continued to eat then she should be fine. 
It is possible that she sprained her back from scratching so hard with her hind foot?
Are the wounds on the same side as the bad leg? 
B~


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Useful info on MW from the link below, and I'd recommend reading the whole link:

http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/deerworm.html

"Meningeal worm infection cannot be diagnosed in the live animal."

"Treatment regimes usually involve high, repetitive doses of anthelmintics, along with steroids, and other supportive therapies. Many different anthelmintics (levamisol, ivermectin, albendazole, fenbendazole, thiabendazole) have been used to treat meningeal worm infection."

"Nor does treatment repair damaged nervous tissue."

"Diseases which look similar to meningeal worm infection include: listeriosis, CAE, scrapie, rabies, trauma, copper deficiency, vitamin E/selenium deficiency, spinal cord or brain abscesses, or polioencephalomalacia."

"A mild infection may produce a slight limp or weakness in one or more legs, while a more severe infection may cause an animal to be partially or completely paralyzed. When larvae migrate to the brain, they may cause blindness, a head tilt, circling, disinterest in or inability to eat, or other signs that mimic brain diseases. 

Affected animals may get progressively worse, remain static, or in some cases improve without therapeutic involvement. In most cases, infected animals remain alert and continue to eat and drink normally."

ALSO FROM:
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/meningealworm.html

"Injectable Ivomec should be given at a rate of 1 cc per 55 pounds bodyweight for at least three days, followed by a double-the-cattle dosage of fenbendazole (Safeguard or Panacur) for five days. *If the goat is down and can't get up on its own, the chance for recovery is not good *. An anti-inflammatory drug like Banamine can be useful in alleviating the inflammation of nerve tissue. Dexamethozone may also be used, but it can cause abortions in pregnant does."

"This treatment, if utilized early in the disease, can stop its progression but cannot undo any nerve damage. Permanent spinal damage (including curvature), weakness in the hindquarters, and/or inability to deliver kids may be the residual effect of Meningeal Worm infection. Once the spinal cord is damaged, treatment can only do so much and the goat will never be back to full health. "


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## betsy h. (Sep 28, 2008)

Once they start itching from MW, they also start leaning against walls, etc. to keep their balance. Also, there would be many other areas with sores from itching. From what you describe, these are the only ones and have been there a while. You'd see other sores by now.

I've seen an MW goat when he was down- he had what was like bubbles under his skin along his spine and was not able to stand. It was not blackleg- blackleg kills in 24-48 hours.

This looks more like a goat worrying an itchy spot till they abraided the area.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Briza said:


> Those pics look very familiar.
> You may be able to feel the larvae if you will press lightly with finger tips.
> 
> If you have seen her digging at this it is MW. Wounds do not itch to that extent without fungal involvement and there looks to be no oozing.
> ...


I did read that somewhere and tried to feel it, but felt nothing. Would they be at the sores or from the sores to the spine? She does seem like her whole body itches - especially along the spine.

I have seen her digging at it. And there is not any oozing - correct.

Your comment about 'they have to be dead for the itching to stop' worries me. I gave her an extra dose of wormer last night - just wanted to be certain. She is still itching. If the larvae are dead, could they still be irritating? I sure hope I killed them.

I guess it's possible she sprain something from itching...anything's possible

The wounds are on her right side. I guess it's her right leg...I can't tell.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

It's my understanding that because a goat is an aberrant host, the worms cannot multiple in the goat. Yet I've heard a few recommendations to retreat in 10 days-2 weeks. I'm not sure I understand that reasoning. Can anyone explain?

_When P. tenuis-infected snails and slugs are ingested by aberrant hosts, the larvae migrate into the brain and/or spinal cord, butdo not mature into adults. Instead, these immature larvae wander through the central nervous system causing inflammation andswelling which damages sensitive nervous tissue producing a variety of neurologic signs. Because these larvae do not mature intoadults in aberrant hosts, they cannot produce eggs that would mature into larvae which would then pass outside the animal with thefeces. This is why sheep, goats, llamas and other unnatural hosts are considered dead-end hosts for P. tenuis. Dead end hostsinfected with P. tenuis larva cannot spread the disease to other aberrant hosts or back to deer - i.e. infected sheep orgoats can not bring the disease to your flock or herd. _


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## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

valsey said:


> It's my understanding that because a goat is an aberrant host, the worms cannot multiple in the goat. Yet I've heard a few recommendations to retreat in 10 days-2 weeks. I'm not sure I understand that reasoning. Can anyone explain?


That doesn't make sense to me either. Probably they don't quite know _why_ you might reworm when treating stomach worms and got the two mixed up.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Nancy_in_GA said:


> That doesn't make sense to me either. Probably they don't quite know _why_ you might reworm when treating stomach worms and got the two mixed up.


And the vet said it too. But there are others who say one treatment only. I guess the folks at UGA did not tell you to re-treat...?


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## Nancy_in_GA (Oct 20, 2004)

Nope. The first vet I called (private, not UGA) said goats didn't get deer worm, only alpacas and llamas. Go figure.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

I spoke with the vet this morning and field x rays will be over $200 - and I've already spent about $250. I know this sounds heartless, but I may have to pass on that. Besides, I feel pretty sure MW is what it is. And the question becomes, if it is an injury, what can I do about it anyway, except let it heal? 

Thoughts on that?


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Nancy_in_GA said:


> Nope. The first vet I called (private, not UGA) said goats didn't get deer worm, only alpacas and llamas. Go figure.


Oh I hear ya...at least my vet recognizes they get it, although he said it's rare. He still thinks inner ear infection. Course no explanation for the sores with that diagnosis


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Briza said:


> Those pics look very familiar.
> Never does anything else cause them to make holes in their own body. B~


Briza there is one other, a reportable disease. It primarily effects sheep, rarely goats, but it has been documented & seminars I've attended speak of it. If I'm not mistaken there was a herd in MI not too long ago suspected to have scrapie, I don't know if it was confirmed or not.

HF


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Well, glory be - I think Lucy's neck is less curved today! Maybe it's my imagination, but it seems like she's walking with her head in front of her rather than turned towards the right.

I feel more and more confident each day that I went with the correct diagnoses. I have lingering thoughts about an injury, but every time that crosses my mind, I think...'that does NOT explain the sores...it's MW'. I looked back at my notes and the sores started to appear the first week of December - I think this puzzle is just about finished.

Whew!

I am however still very upset that the vet has yet to call me back. It's disappointing that you spend money for *no* answers and have to be the vet yourself. I am so thankful for this forum and other trustworthy sources of info on the internet. I'm certain that 3 of the 5 goats I have would be dead right now, if not for these resources.

I'll continue to post as this progresses.

Thank you ALL so much!


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

Glad to get an update and yes you have to be your own vet where goats are concerned.
They are an animal of very little economic impact and so unless a vet is in an area with large meat herds or dairy operations they are unlikely to have experience with goat drama.
It is good that your doe kept eating the entire time. Hopefully you are on the road to recovery. Has she quit itching?


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Yes - she's still itching but I don't think as bad because she's not more torn up today than yesterday.

I just went to give her her last shot and I swear her spine is practically back to normal.

I understand the lack of vets. But when one does come out, You spend a pretty penny for absolutely nothing. My problem is that if I don't call one I end up feeling like I didn't do everything I should have. And that simply has to stop. Following your intuition, plus arming yourself with all the info you can, is the way to go.


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

her spine is practically back to normal.


must have got that ear infection cleared up :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Valsey...you did just awesome with this situation. Kudos to you for being such a great goat mama!!  !!!


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## Cheribelle (Jul 23, 2007)

Wow, that's some good news!


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Briza said:


> her spine is practically back to normal.
> 
> 
> must have got that ear infection cleared up :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:


Ha! Yep -cleared that ear infection right up...with wormer! Go figure. 

Before I get cocky, I better check on her this morning to make sure I wasn't seeing things. I'll report back


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Minelson said:


> Valsey...you did just awesome with this situation. Kudos to you for being such a great goat mama!!  !!!



Thanks Minelson. Couldn't have done it on my own!


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

So glad to hear she's doing so much better & almost back to normal. Good job Valsey!


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Well I spoke too soon. Her spine is still curved (maybe slightly less) but her head IS straight forward instead of to the side. The sores look to be healing too. So - no miracle cure, but I think things are headed in the right direction!

Yeah for Lucy!


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

I'm worried that I have not killed this worm. Anyone know how long before this itching stops? Giving benadryl daily and now Lucy is sporting a nice tight pink t-shirt to keep her from continually ripping herself apart. I would think that by now she would have stopped itching so badly.

BAD NEWS: one of my other goats has a sore. Doesn't look like it was caused by itching though, so not sure. I gave her one treatment dose of Ivermectin when all of this started with Lucy, but maybe that wasn't enough. Thoughts anyone?

I have been guilty of not copper bolusing them in a while and I'm afraid so many of the problems on this farm are related to copper deficiency...


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Copper deficiency can up the parasite & worm loads I believe if they are really deficient.

It's been awhile since I read all the posts here but have you tried using Ivermectin paste topically on the affected areas too? I know I should re-read them all as it seems someone mentioned that already.

It is so frustrating I know when your having some kind of trouble & it just doesn't seem like progress is moving quick enough.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Backfourty said:


> It's been awhile since I read all the posts here but have you tried using Ivermectin paste topically on the affected areas too? I know I should re-read them all as it seems someone mentioned that already.


Really? No - I don't recall that being mentioned. Just put the paste right on the sore? Ouch! She's pretty raw...


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## Starsmom (Nov 7, 2004)

I was thinking the same thing about applying the paste topically. I did it for mites and it worked great. I doubt that it would sting and might make it feel better. What do you have to lose? I'd give it a try.


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

Hmmmm...would the reason to use Ivermectin paste on the sore be for relief from the itching, or to kill larvae? I think the goal is to stop the itching. I hesitate to even put any anti-itch cream on it. I'm talking about a large, open sore. Seems like it would really sting.


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## deafgoatlady (Sep 5, 2007)

When is the last time you gave her invermentic?? Because my friend of mine did use that just once but it didnt help all the way but I had to get her give the goat one more dose and it went away. You may have do it again..


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## valsey (May 21, 2006)

deafgoatlady said:


> When is the last time you gave her invermentic?? Because my friend of mine did use that just once but it didnt help all the way but I had to get her give the goat one more dose and it went away. You may have do it again..


I feel like I've given a darn good amount of wormer (3 days in a row, skipped a day and then one more)- here's the timeline:

Wed 1/27 â first noticed the curved spine (maybe Tuesday night, not sure)

Thur 1/28 â 2 ccs of Banamine IM (assuming it was an injury)

Fri 1/29 â 2 ccs of Banamine IM (assuming it was an injury)

Sat 1/30 â 2 ccs of Banamine IM + 3.5 ccs of Ivermectine (generic) SQ (assuming it was an injury, but now thinking MW). Also wormed the other Nubian the same.

Sun 1/31â 3.5 ccs of Ivermectine (generic) SQ. Also wormed the other Nubian the same.

Mon 2/1â vet visit - Thiamin, Dex, Banamine and 3.5 ccs of Ivermectine

Tues 2/2â Thiamin

Wed 2/3 - Thiamin, 2 ccs of Banamine IM, 3.5 ccs of Ivermectine (generic) SQ, 3 ccs Dexamethasone.

Thurs 2/4 , 2 ccs of Banamine IM, 2.5 ccs Dexamethasone IM, chlorhexidine on sores â (bleeding)

Fri 2/5 â 2 ccs Dexamethasone IM


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