# Ebola scare; much to do about nothing



## Trainwrek

I just did some digging around after being a little concerned about all this Ebola stuff only to find that the survival rates in the US so far are about the same as for a common cold! 100% survival so far here in the US based on 4 people treated and released.

Even in the better parts of Africa, survival is 90%. In the worst parts, it's 25% with an average survival rate of 50% ( in Africa ).

This definitely doesn't seem to be the deadly TEOTWAWKI event that many seem to be concerned about. It seems like everytime there is a new disease or potential epidemic, the frightened reaction is blown way out of all proportion. 

http://www.nationaljournal.com/heal...her-key-questions-about-the-epidemic-20140930


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## hurryiml8

Survival may be 100% in the few people here who have had it, but how do they feel now? Does it damage the body a lot? I would like to know how the survivors feel in the weeks, months and years after the illness. I also don't have time to be isolated in a hospital for weeks or more, and my insurance co-pays would be astronomical. I would rather not get it in the first place.


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## Trainwrek

hurryiml8 said:


> Survival may be 100% in the few people here who have had it, but how do they feel now? Does it damage the body a lot? I would like to know how the survivors feel in the weeks, months and years after the illness. I also don't have time to be isolated in a hospital for weeks or more, and my insurance co-pays would be astronomical. I would rather not get it in the first place.


Of course! Nobody WANTS to get sick with anything. But that is a lot different from hailing it as the next Bubonic plague.


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## countrytime

If you think DIC is not scary then you need to talk to a Critical Care nurse. Although you may have found some facts, I do not believe in any way that they are correct. I will say however that Ebola research has been ongoing for over 20 years--as far back as 1976--think outside the box on this one...there should be much more treatment/prevention info available to the general public. I do think that it is containable, and it is not as easily spread as the flu virus--think along the lines of HIV.


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## chickenista

Yes.
We have successfully treated 4 patients.

4.

And even then we had problems with waste removal.
It sat as they squabbled over who had to deal with it etc..

Now.. let's think about what would happen if a hospital had 30 cases.
100.

No way.
They couldn't do it.

They don't keep enough supplies on hand if the truckers stopped trucking.
Not enough gloves for each and every nurse each and every time she went from room to room.
Not enough IV bags, needles etc..
and the waste would pile up in a flash.
Not enough ER rooms.
And certainly not enough isolation rooms.
Yeah.. they could block off an entire floor of a hospital, but who would want to live and work there and never leave??


It's all cool when it is a controlled thing, like 4 patients.
But add more and you get a total mess.
And let it spread and the people piled up outside the hospital, trying to get in would be HUGE.
Some with it, some without.
All trying to cram into triage tents, pushing and shoving to get their precious little Johnny to the head of the line.

Night. mare.


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## NamasteMama

Yup! Survival is 100% for the people who received the experiment drug Zmapp which is, by the way, all used up. Oh yes, so good luck getting that drug now. It takes about 8 months to make enough for about 100 people..

If you think that this is not a threat I have a bridge in San Fransisco I want to sell you.


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## Trainwrek

NamasteMama said:


> Yup! Survival is 100% for the people who received the experiment drug Zmapp which is, by the way, all used up. Oh yes, so good luck getting that drug now. It takes about 8 months to make enough for about 100 people..
> 
> If you think that this is not a threat I have a bridge in San Fransisco I want to sell you.


Even in the more developed parts of Africa survival rates are 90%. No they are not using Zmapp. Most people die of dehydration from Ebola, a simple fluid IV makes the difference for the majority of people.


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## Ziptie

chickenista said:


> Yes.
> We have successfully treated 4 patients.
> 
> 4.
> 
> And even then we had problems with waste removal.
> It sat as they squabbled over who had to deal with it etc..
> 
> Now.. let's think about what would happen if a hospital had 30 cases.
> 100.
> 
> No way.
> They couldn't do it.
> 
> They don't keep enough supplies on hand if the truckers stopped trucking.
> Not enough gloves for each and every nurse each and every time she went from room to room.
> Not enough IV bags, needles etc..
> and the waste would pile up in a flash.
> Not enough ER rooms.
> And certainly not enough isolation rooms.
> Yeah.. they could block off an entire floor of a hospital, but who would want to live and work there and never leave??
> 
> 
> It's all cool when it is a controlled thing, like 4 patients.
> But add more and you get a total mess.
> And let it spread and the people piled up outside the hospital, trying to get in would be HUGE.
> Some with it, some without.
> All trying to cram into triage tents, pushing and shoving to get their precious little Johnny to the head of the line.
> 
> Night. mare.



Not only the above, but I keep thinking about who is going to pay for all this treatment? 

Here is a math problem for you..

How many Ebola patients will it take to bankrupt an insurance company?


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## bama

Where are you seeing a 90% survival rate? I thought it was much deadlier than that?


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## CraftyLady

Trainwrek said:


> Even in the more developed parts of Africa survival rates are 90%. No they are not using Zmapp. Most people die of dehydration from Ebola, a simple fluid IV makes the difference for the majority of people.



Nope - I think this article says 50% survival for infected individuals. 10% for pregnant women. 


http://www.nationaljournal.com/heal...her-key-questions-about-the-epidemic-20140930

Of course American is 100% with 4 people successfully treated. That may change very soon. Especially if the standard of treatment will be the same as the family secluded in there home.


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## Vahomesteaders

Anybody who thinks it's just a joke and nothing to worry about is either working for the govt or a liberal who supports them. All real signs point to bad news


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## chickenista

Hang on now.
I am a Liberal and I think we are in serious trouble.
Too much red tape tripping everyone up.
Too much posturing for position and power.
Too much hubris that we are sooo special, so exceptional, that we are better than an African nation.
I am watching and making plans.
I think it is the biggest actual, non-imagined, non-made up for profiteering's sake, non-made of for ratings problem we have had in several generations.
Bigger than even the Cold War, which was mainly made up and nothing actually happened..other than defense contractors made a ton of money.


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## Forest

hurryiml8 said:


> Survival may be 100% in the few people here who have had it, but how do they feel now? Does it damage the body a lot? I would like to know how the survivors feel in the weeks, months and years after the illness. I also don't have time to be isolated in a hospital for weeks or more, and my insurance co-pays would be astronomical. I would rather not get it in the first place.


Many patients who survive Ebola have a prolonged period of joint and muscle paint and lack of energy that lasts months. Few were able to quickly go back to performing at their previous energy level. This is from a study that followed survivors for about a year, if I remember correctly.


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## Darren

It's a question of numbers. The strict isolation requirements will overwhelm the health system. The four that were successfully treated were in special facilities that don't exist within all of the hospitals in this country. 

One hospital allowed an Ebola infected patient to leave. What's that tell you?


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## trulytricia

I think it's much too soon to decide this is much to do about nothing. But hey that's your choice.

I plan to watch , read, listen, and not to get all upset.


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## ||Downhome||

In Africa when such things happen they normally self quarantine.

Blocked Roads and no comes or goes.

I read a book long ago about a ebola outbreak.

Mostly fiction but based on a real case scenario.

I puked so much at the possibility it brings.

I feel sorry for these people, but we worry so much about bio-security on farms... What about the nation? 

We should not be bringing infected people here.

Its insane.

I'll leave it there.


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## Trainwrek

CraftyLady said:


> Nope - I think this article says 50% survival for infected individuals. 10% for pregnant women.
> 
> 
> http://www.nationaljournal.com/heal...her-key-questions-about-the-epidemic-20140930
> 
> Of course American is 100% with 4 people successfully treated. That may change very soon. Especially if the standard of treatment will be the same as the family secluded in there home.


Yup. You are not reading up enough. 90% survival in the more developed parts of Africa, 25% in the less developed parts. They AVERAGE a 50% survival rate. The devil is in the details 

Most of us have absolutely no idea the conditions that exist in places like Liberia. Its like living in an open sewer. They have no real hospital care. Because we have no concept of what goes on there we cannot compare what goes on there to what goes on in any developed society. Just the very basic sanitary conditions and the use of a fluid IV can change the outcome from almost certain death to almost certain recovery.

In sanitary conditions, with just very basic medical care the Ebola virus is little more than a bad flu.


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## Ernie

Trainwrek said:


> Yup. You are not reading up enough. 90% survival in the more developed parts of Africa, 25% in the less developed parts. They AVERAGE a 50% survival rate. The devil is in the details


I think you're whistling past the graveyard and also not very well educated on how statistics are calculated.

By your standard, if I point to any one individual who survived ebola I can then claim a 100% success rate. 

But that's not how those statistics are calculated. Statistics are calculated across the board of all known individuals who have contracted the disease.

You're cherry-picking your information to try and show a different picture of events. And also, the title of your thread should be "much ado about nothing" as that is the common phrase based on the comedic work by Shakespeare.


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## gibbsgirl

||Downhome|| said:


> In Africa when such things happen they normally self quarantine.
> 
> Blocked Roads and no comes or goes.
> 
> I read a book long ago about a ebola outbreak.
> 
> Mostly fiction but based on a real case scenario.
> 
> I puked so much at the possibility it brings.
> 
> I feel sorry for these people, but we worry so much about bio-security on farms... What about the nation?
> 
> We should not be bringing infected people here.
> 
> Its insane.
> 
> I'll leave it there.


you made me think of the requirements for import export of food. food only gets who eats or handles it ill not their contacts after contamination or ingestion. oh for pete's sake this whole situation just stinks.


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## Trainwrek

Ernie said:


> I think you're whistling past the graveyard and also not very well educated on how statistics are calculated.
> 
> By your standard, if I point to any one individual who survived ebola I can then claim a 100% success rate.
> 
> But that's not how those statistics are calculated. Statistics are calculated across the board of all known individuals who have contracted the disease.
> 
> You're cherry-picking your information to try and show a different picture of events. And also, the title of your thread should be "much ado about nothing" as that is the common phrase based on the comedic work by Shakespeare.



Not at all. I think you're the one not very well educated about the issue. 4 people treated in the US, 4 survived. That makes a 100% success rate IN THE USA. You have to compare apples to apples. What happens in Liberia is not comparable, statistically, to what happens in a developed nation with good medical care.

You are actually the one cherry picking. What you are doing is like calculating the risk of shark attack using only deep sea divers with open wounds in your formula, and trying to apply that statistic to the rest of the world. The same odds simply do not apply.

Though I agree with some here who have expressed a fear of hospitals becoming overwhelmed, as it stands, the disease itself is highly treatable.


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## Ernie

Trainwrek said:


> Not at all. I think you're the one not very well educated about the issue. 4 people treated in the US, 4 survived. That makes a 100% success rate IN THE USA. You have to compare apples to apples. What happens in Liberia is not comparable, statistically, to what happens in a developed nation with good medical care.
> 
> You are actually the one cherry picking. What you are doing is like calculating the risk of shark attack using only deep sea divers with open wounds in your formula, and trying to apply that statistic to the rest of the world. The same odds simply do not apply.


So if the fifth one dies, what statistical exclusion will you apply to maintain the 100%?

And the sixth one? The hundredth one?


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## Trainwrek

Ernie said:


> So if the fifth one dies, what statistical exclusion will you apply to maintain the 100%?
> 
> And the sixth one? The hundredth one?


What I would do is pay attention to the statistics of people treated in developed nations with good hospital care. I would not include people who suffer and die without basic medical care, since that statistic simply does not apply to us here. 

Apples to Apples. Did I get that phrase right?


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## homefire2007

Aren't there five different strains of the Ebola virus? How fast will it mutate? We are not special. The case in Dallas was mishandled from the get-go. Is this the modern plague? Take it very seriously.


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## Ernie

Trainwrek said:


> What I would do is pay attention to the statistics of people treated in developed nations with good hospital care. I would not include people who suffer and die without basic medical care, since that statistic simply does not apply to us here.
> 
> Apples to Apples. Did I get that phrase right?


You did! You get a gold star in phrasology.

However you're failing at logic.

"Developed nation with good health care" is a subjective term, not an objective one.

You are fully aware of the healthcare available to a wealthy person in Lagos? It's the second largest city in Africa with 17 million people and almost the size of New York.

Or do you just ignorantly lump it into the "It's in Africa so it's not as good as America" category?

Bottom line: Without access to TOP QUALITY medical care, you are 75% likely to die from ebola you have contracted.

And what gains you that access? MONEY.

Witness, for example, the uninsured black man who showed up at a Dallas emergency room with ebola and was sent home with antibiotics, versus the two white doctors who were flown back from Africa to a top-notch facility in Atlanta.


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## Trainwrek

homefire2007 said:


> How fast will it mutate? .


Nobody knows. Might not mutate at all.



> We are not special.


No. Just developed and capable of offering basic medical care in sanitary conditions which, so far, has resulted in almost complete recovery both here and in more developed parts of Africa.



> Is this the modern plague?


No



> Take it very seriously


It is serious. For a very small percentage of people who receive medical treatment, it is deadly. Same can be said for the flu.


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## Trainwrek

Ernie said:


> You did! You get a gold star in phrasology.
> 
> However you're failing at logic.
> 
> "Developed nation with good health care" is a subjective term, not an objective one.
> 
> You are fully aware of the healthcare available to a wealthy person in Lagos? It's the second largest city in Africa with 17 million people and almost the size of New York.
> 
> Or do you just ignorantly lump it into the "It's in Africa so it's not as good as America" category?
> 
> Bottom line: Without access to TOP QUALITY medical care, you are 75% likely to die from ebola you have contracted.
> 
> And what gains you that access? MONEY.
> 
> Witness, for example, the uninsured black man who showed up at a Dallas emergency room with ebola and was sent home with antibiotics, versus the two white doctors who were flown back from Africa to a top-notch facility in Atlanta.


All nonsense. In Africa, where decent medical care is available, recovery rates are 90%. I've said this in other posts, so you fail reading comprehension. Your logic is bad because your information is bad.

You simply cannot compare the medical care available in Liberia to what you can get here in America.


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## Ernie

Trainwrek said:


> All nonsense. In Africa, where decent medical care is available, recovery rates are 90%. I've said this in other posts, so you fail reading comprehension. Your logic is bad because your information is bad.
> 
> You simply cannot compare the medical care available in Liberia to what you can get here in America.


Then prove it. Show me a credible link where it says that with top notch medical care in Africa the survival rate is 90%.

So far all I have is some anonymous person on the internet claiming that it's so.


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## homefire2007

Exactly, we don't know. An abundance of caution is in order. Funny, a few weeks ago I ended up in the ER. This little local out in the boonies hospital already had protocols in place. Their first question was my travel history...even though I was presenting with chest pain. I was questioned carefully by two nurses. I am middle-aged and anglo...this was weeks ago. I am darn impressed.


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## farmrbrown

Ernie said:


> Witness, for example, the uninsured black man who showed up at a Dallas emergency room with ebola and was sent home with antibiotics, versus the two white doctors who were flown back from Africa to a top-notch facility in Atlanta.



You bring up a good point, one that already happened, not a hypothetical incident.
It also emphasizes a huge mistake that is repeated. 
False assumptions.
A few weeks ago we were assured Ebola wouldn't reach our shores, but it did.
We are now assured we can handle and treat it successfully, even touting a "100%" survival rate.
I watched how it was "handled" in Dallas. The maintenance guy for the apartment complex was pressure washing the sidewalk on TV a few days ago.
The CDC showed up yesterday.
Nice job.


Yeah.
With 4 cases.
What about 4 million?
Who thinks the survival rate is going to be 100% when 1,000 cases hit one ER in one city, even our biggest city hospital?
Think they will become overwhelmed and understaffed, _just like the poor souls in West Africa?_
Or.......


Trainwrek said:


> I would not include people who suffer and die without basic medical care, since *that statistic simply does not apply to us here. *


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## Ernie

Agreed. We have shown so far that we aren't any smarter than Liberia. Considerably less so, in fact, because they've been dealing with ebola for a long time.


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## Trainwrek

Here's some basic statistics to put things into perspective;

Influenza kills 20,000-30,000 people in the US every year. In contrast, Ebola has killed 2,500 people WORLDWIDE since 1976. Malaria kills about 68 people per hour.

http://mic.com/articles/95640/everything-you-know-about-ebola-is-wrong


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## Trainwrek

Ernie said:


> Agreed. We have shown so far that we aren't any smarter than Liberia. Considerably less so, in fact, because they've been dealing with ebola for a long time.


We've had Ebola in this country since before 1989 according to Tara Smith, ebola researcher ( and YES we are alot smarter than Liberia);



> If you read myth two, you already know there is a type of Ebola named after a U.S. city, but there was Ebola present in the country far before the 1989 Reston outbreak.Additionally, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and USAMRIID in Fort Detrick, Md., have both had active Ebola research programs for many decades, as do a number of other academic laboratories in the United States.


http://mic.com/articles/95640/everything-you-know-about-ebola-is-wrong


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## unregistered41671

Trainwrek said:


> Here's some basic statistics to put things into perspective;
> 
> Influenza kills 20,000-30,000 people in the US every year. In contrast, Ebola has killed *2,500* people WORLDWIDE since 1976. Malaria kills about 68 people per hour.
> 
> http://mic.com/articles/95640/everything-you-know-about-ebola-is-wrong


CDC website says as of Oct 3rd, 2014 Ebola has killed 3431, not 2500

http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/outbreaks/2014-west-africa/index.html


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## Trainwrek

Possum Belly said:


> CDC website says as of Oct 3rd, 2014 Ebola has killed 3431, not 2500
> 
> http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/outbreaks/2014-west-africa/index.html


Well that changes everything

The common FLU kills 20,000 -30,000 people every year just in America! This whole Ebola scare is being blown way out of proportion.


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## unregistered41671

Trainwrek said:


> Well that changes everything


Yes it does change things, when one does not know what they are talking about.


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## Trainwrek

Possum Belly said:


> Yes it does change things, when one does not know what they are talking about.


On that much, we agree


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## unregistered41671

Trainwrek said:


> Here's some basic statistics to put things into perspective;
> 
> Influenza kills 20,000-30,000 people in the US every year. In contrast, *Ebola has killed 2,500 people WORLDWIDE since 1976*. Malaria kills about 68 people per hour.
> 
> http://mic.com/articles/95640/everything-you-know-about-ebola-is-wrong





Possum Belly said:


> *CDC website says as of Oct 3rd, 2014 Ebola has killed 3431, not 2500*
> 
> http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/outbreaks/2014-west-africa/index.html





Trainwrek said:


> Well that changes everything
> 
> The common FLU kills 20,000 -30,000 people every year just in America! This whole Ebola scare is being blown way out of proportion.





Possum Belly said:


> Yes it does change things, when one does not know what they are talking about.





Trainwrek said:


> On that much, we agree


Yep, we do. Spouting off *false* figures shows that *you *don't know what you are talking about.


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## Ernie

Trainwrek said:


> Well that changes everything
> 
> The common FLU kills 20,000 -30,000 people every year just in America! This whole Ebola scare is being blown way out of proportion.


The fact that you cannot find a link to back up your assertion of the 90% survival rate and instead are trying to compare it to the flu is a telling factor.


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## Trainwrek

Possum Belly said:


> Yep, we do. Spouting off *false* figures shows that *you *don't know what you are talking about.


Just to help you understand these figures and what they mean ( because clearly you do not ), total reported deaths are ESTIMATED at 3,431. But Laboratory confirmed deaths are 2,078.

Estimates are very difficult to measure, they are ESTIMATES not exact numbers. The fact that you don't understand this might go a long way in explaining why you are so misinformed about this issue.

I gave an estimated death toll of 2,500, higher than the laboratory confirmed death toll, but under the CDC ESTIMATE. This estimate was given by way of demonstrating the proportion of Ebola deaths to influenza deaths. 

Getting bogged down in an argument of whether the death toll is 2,500 or 3,439 or something slightly different does nothing to help you comprehend the point. Its lost on you I guess :shrug:


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## Ceilismom

One would do well to look into how that 20-30 thousand estimated annual flu deaths figure is computed, and by whom, before claiming that Ebola is being blown out of proportion in comparison.


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## Trainwrek

Ernie said:


> The fact that you cannot find a link to back up your assertion of the 90% survival rate and instead are trying to compare it to the flu is a telling factor.


So far we have 100% survival rate for people treated in America!


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## Ernie

Trainwrek said:


> So far we have 100% survival rate for people treated in America!


USA! USA! USA! We're number one!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q65KZIqay4E[/ame]


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## where I want to

Trainwrek said:


> On that much, we agree


I thought antigovernment-isms were bad, fearing something that hasn't happened so much as to allow something that has happened to kill. 

Even if you are right, and I think that your stats are incomplete enough to be useless, the disruptions of even a 10 % death rate would be enormous. It would not be 10% of all people- it would be 90% of doctors and nurses, and police and emergency personnel, people who are repeatedly exposed. And those remaining would not have basic health services and what is easily fixed today might go back to being fatal. So intensive care might bring people through, but if there are not the people to provide it or the supplies to give, what use is that? There has been a simple ringer's solution shortage several times in the last few years without huge demand presuures.

If you look at the great plague and look at west Africa, you see farmers not providing food. Disruptions in utility services. Schools closed. Shops without restocked neccessities. Because people fear exposure but not fearing exposure could lead to death. 

If you look, not only people get ebola, other animals like dogs and bats carry it and can infect people. For instance, the latest American took precautions and doesn't know how he became infected. 

BTW reston ebola is not infectious to people and is not a good reference as to having "been in" the US for decades.


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## farmrbrown

One other note for any who are interested.
The 90% survival rate for certain African countries is from Wikipedia, footnote 1,3.
Go to the update history for that link and see just how many "revisions" have been made in the last 72 hours.
There were too many for me to count and verify, but that should at least make one consider the source and the reason why the PTB would want to continue to fool the masses.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs103/en/

Even the quoted stats from the WHO publication are wrong.
The range of mortality was 0% (Cote d'Ivoire) to 100% (South Africa, Uganda, Republic of Congo), with each of those countries having a history of 1 case each.
So that's what you can do with statistics.


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## Trainwrek

Well look....many here who are regulars in the S&P threads are, by nature, on the lookout for the next crisis. Sometimes, when we are looking for something we find it, whether the facts support it or not. When we want to believe something because it validates our beliefs, we can often ignore some information, and favor other information that is more comfortable.

This is called Cognitive Bias. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias

The facts are that many many more people die yearly from the common flu in the US, then have died from Ebola in the entire world since 1976. Ebola is a serious disease, but far from the next Bubonic plague.


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## where I want to

Trainwrek said:


> Well look....many here who are regulars in the S&P threads are, by nature, on the lookout for the next crisis. Sometimes, when we are looking for something we find it, whether the facts support it or not. When we want to believe something because it validates our beliefs, we can often ignore some information, and favor other information that is more comfortable.
> 
> This is called Cognitive Bias. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias
> 
> The facts are that many many more people die yearly from the common flu in the US, then have died from Ebola in the entire world since 1976. Ebola is a serious disease, but far from the next Bubonic plague.


Yes- but the largest percentage of people survive the flu as it mostly kills older people and, since it is more easily caught, effects a huge proportion of the population everywhere.

Ebola, on the other hand, is no respecter of youth, good health or anything else. It marches its way though everyone with equal fatality.

I once had a doctor trying to persuade me into a heart test by telling that heart failure was the greastest killer of people in the US. The reply was to ask whether that was amoung 80 year olds or 30 year olds. The response was "Well there is that." The truth is that no one dies with a still beating heart so all deaths could be said to be because of heart failure. It's just that stat is not relevant to almost anything.

Not to mention that few died from the plague before it spread, then it managed to do serious damage. What specifically makes ebola not worthy of your concern?


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## farmrbrown

where I want to said:


> What specifically makes ebola not worthy of your concern?


My guess?
Maybe a few months.......

That's what I was trying to say.
Nothing is bad, until it becomes bad.
Everyone can think what they want, big problem, little problem, no problem.
None of what anyone *thinks* will matter to the *truth*, and I guess only time will tell what the truth is.


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## where I want to

farmrbrown said:


> My guess?
> Maybe a few months.......
> 
> That's what I was trying to say.
> Nothing is bad, until it becomes bad.
> Everyone can think what they want, big problem, little problem, no problem.
> None of what anyone *thinks* will matter to the *truth*, and I guess only time will tell what the truth is.


Which is why taking useful action at the earliest point is good. It is possible to contain ebola. It may become a constant worry in the future but if it does not spread geometrically before any useful plans are developed, then it just may not blossom into a huge issue. 
Even those who get supplies to isolate themselves are doing something useful because they are better able to not contribute to the problem.

But having heard attempts at soothing noise by those who should have had a serious big plan for this eventuality, then seen how flat they fell in the face of something they knew would happen, I think lighting some fires under some government butts is in order.


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## gibbsgirl

i'm hesitant to think the reported stats from cdc (or otherwise) of the happenings in Africa are reliable regardless of what they report. there is simply not a way to track what is happening accurately. they are not doing testing or autopsies on all the people who are sick and die or recover. they also have people ill and dying or recovery who are outside the healthcare locations. they also have many other illnesses some of which are similar in presentation to ebola. and, you have some people being treated, some people being turned away and some people avoiding help because of fear of exposure to ebola. how can we think that the numbers being reported are truly representative of what is happening?

further, I don't think that survival of ebola comes with 100% recovery. it seems that it can be like polio, where you're alive but may not be well as you once were for at least some people.

lastly, i'm inclined to think that there was pressure and an understanding amongst those involved that the sick americans would be brought back if they became ill. but, i'm also inclined to think that if the evaluations of them on the ground showed that they were too far gone (unlikely to survive even with heroic measures), I don't think they would have been brought back. i'm sure being trained and working within the clinical environment also helped the cured americans to give themselves a leg up against the general population as far as spotting the need for early, immediate intervention.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Trainwrek said:


> Nobody knows. Might not mutate at all.
> 
> 
> 
> No. Just developed and capable of offering basic medical care in sanitary conditions which, so far, has resulted in almost complete recovery both here and in more developed parts of Africa.


I don't think there's a way for it not to mutate. I think (as in other viruses) mutation is a part of it's microevolution/existence.

I would challenge the notion that we (US) have a population that lives in sanitary conditions and receives adequate sanitary medical care.

I believe that we have more advanced water and sewage systems than are probably commonly available in at least some of the places in Africa with ebola. but, ebola is about infection control. how many schools, stores, gas stations, banks, neghborhoods, homes, offices, hospitals do you think would be able to handle the level of infection control management necessary if ebola gets a hold here? if we had that down pat, people wouldn't be ill with hospital born illnesses, children wouldn't pass things about like their schools were a petrie dish, people wouldn't have their health impacted by our "living conditions at home (respiratory illnesses, etc).

my thoughts anyway.


----------



## Glade Runner

Trainwrek said:


> I just did some digging around after being a little concerned about all this Ebola stuff only to find that the survival rates in the US so far are about the same as for a common cold! 100% survival so far here in the US based on 4 people treated and released.
> 
> Even in the better parts of Africa, survival is 90%. In the worst parts, it's 25% with an average survival rate of 50% ( in Africa ).
> 
> This definitely doesn't seem to be the deadly TEOTWAWKI event that many seem to be concerned about. It seems like everytime there is a new disease or potential epidemic, the frightened reaction is blown way out of all proportion.
> 
> http://www.nationaljournal.com/heal...her-key-questions-about-the-epidemic-20140930


3500 dead people says your judgement is worth the price being paid for it.


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## elkhound

this is survival forum..like a man told me once....if you dont wanna survive...well..dont listen to me...roflmao


----------



## gibbsgirl

Trainwrek said:


> Well that changes everything
> 
> The common FLU kills 20,000 -30,000 people every year just in America! This whole Ebola scare is being blown way out of proportion.


just a couple of links I was reading the other day about the flu and flu shots, disputing the "common knowledge/talk" as it seems to be circulating the last several years.

btw, my entire family used to be (we still are actually) eligible for the flu shot as priority patients every year, even when there were shortages/delays. I did some looking into it some years ago and decided it was no longer reasonable to take the flu shot because of my doubts. our rates of bouts with flu/flu-like illness has dropped significantly since we quit taking the shots.

http://wellnessachiever.net/shocking-truth-flu-deaths-flu-shot/

For years, the American people have been lied to about flu shots and flu related deaths! The CDC has been telling the public for nearly a decade that there are more than 200,000 estimated hospitalizations and 36,000 estimated deaths from influenza in the U.S. every year.(1) However, these numbers are not truthful! They do not represent people who actually died from the flu. They are only estimates of other causes of death that are assumed to be flu-related. They serve only to scare millions of Americans into getting the dangerous &#8211; sometimes deadly &#8211; flu shot.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a.../03/hype-vs-evidence-of-influenza-deaths.aspx

both links include links within them for further reading and well.


----------



## scooter

That Ebola patient in Texas that had been listed in serious condition is now in critical condition.
US Ebola patient's condition worsens


----------



## Ernie

scooter said:


> That Ebola patient in Texas that had been listed in serious condition is now in critical condition.
> US Ebola patient's condition worsens


Not expected to live through the weekend.


----------



## kycountry

Ernie said:


> Not expected to live through the weekend.


Now let's do some math on the subject.. not wishing he dies, but let's pretend a minute..

5 cases, one subject to die.. if he does, that's an 80% survival rate..

4 patients receive Zmapp.. all survive.. 100% 
1 hasn't.. again, if he doesn't make it, that's 0% survival without it..

4 were doctors or health care related patients.. 100% survival..
1 isn't, again, if he doesn't survive, that's 0% survival for non health care related patients..

Now, how many common folk you think will get a drug it takes 8 months to make enough for 100 people??

Now that's the math that matters to me...


----------



## unregistered41671

Mighty interesting read here about the protection they wear and still get the virus.
*
"When Ebola protection fails"*


http://m.sciencemag.org/content/346/6205/17.full


----------



## Vosey

I work in healthcare and while our system is so much better than most of Africa it can still easily get overwhelmed. Even if the ER's and primary care offices correctly identified and caught all the early Ebola patients, which is saying a lot, the need for isolation, hazmat suits and disposal of hazardous waste on a level more than a few patients at every hospital would quickly be overwhelming. In Texas, they have closed the whole ward he is on as they don't have the special units they do at Emory. How many patients now don't get care as there are no beds? Hospitals don't have huge amounts of supplies on hand, just like your grocery store, they now rely on "on-demand" ordering. Our health system also doesn't get good ratings from the get go for infections control (think MRSA, VRSA and C. Difficile) and add Ebola on top of all of that.

I could go on and on, but the bottom line is we are good, but we are fallible.


----------



## Vosey

Possum Belly said:


> Mighty interesting read here about the protection they wear and still get the virus.
> *
> "When Ebola protection fails"*
> 
> 
> http://m.sciencemag.org/content/346/6205/17.full


This is what really concerns me. Thanks for posting.


----------



## unregistered41671

Vosey said:


> This is what really concerns me. Thanks for posting.


Me too. You are welcome.


----------



## willbuck1

There have been over 300 documented mutations in this strain since the start of the outbreak. One of the reasons that a vaccine is so hard to achieve is because it mutates so easily. The thing about this outbreak that makes it scary is in all the other outbreaks it mutated to be less fatal and essentially died out. Hasn't happened here and doesn't look likely to. The experts have said the longer it is going around the more likely it is to find a mutation that makes it more easily passed on. Most diseases are able to be passed on before symptoms are displayed which leads me to think it is only a matter of time until it happens with this one.
All it really takes for this disease to really overwhelm one cities ability to deal with it is one food service worker with a cold on the day he becomes contagious for ebola and working in a moderately popular eating establishment.


----------



## Spinner

Trainwrek said:


> Ebola has killed 2,500 people WORLDWIDE since 1976. ...


There's been more ebola deaths in the past couple of months than there was in the past 38 years. *That* gets my attention.

In addition I wonder about this... The recent Ebola outbreak in Africa coincides with a massive Meningitis Vaccine campaign targeting over 100 million Africans; notably including all four African countries (Guinea, Nigeria, Liberia, Sierra Leone) caught in the epicenter of the viral spread.

A couple of interesting links that might or might not help explain this ebola outbreak.
*ALL the Vaccines Are Contaminated - Every Last One of Them*

*Contaminated Vaccine Report*


----------



## Ernie

Spinner said:


> There's been more ebola deaths in the past couple of months than there was in the past 38 years. *That* gets my attention.
> 
> In addition I wonder about this... The recent Ebola outbreak in Africa coincides with a massive Meningitis Vaccine campaign targeting over 100 million Africans; notably including all four African countries (Guinea, Nigeria, Liberia, Sierra Leone) caught in the epicenter of the viral spread.
> 
> A couple of interesting links that might or might not help explain this ebola outbreak.
> *ALL the Vaccines Are Contaminated - Every Last One of Them*
> 
> *Contaminated Vaccine Report*


Would help explain why the locals in Africa where the outbreaks are happening are so hostile to even the aid workers. Any white face that shows up and wants to "take care of them" is immediately suspect.


----------



## countrytime

"In sanitary conditions, with just very basic medical care the Ebola virus is little more than a bad flu."

This is the most ridicules comment I have heard yet! I wouldn't bleed out from the flu.


----------



## MullersLaneFarm

Ebola .... or .... Marburg .... both deadly


----------



## Ernie

What the heck is Marburg? A new one? I haven't heard of it.


----------



## chickenista

http://www.china.org.cn/world/Off_the_Wire/2014-10/05/content_33686011.htm

Now there is Marburg in Uganda.

And Marburg is another hemorrhagic fever.
Ends the same messy way.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Got a case of malaria in MD now.


----------



## gibbsgirl

countrytime said:


> "In sanitary conditions, with just very basic medical care the Ebola virus is little more than a bad flu."
> 
> This is the most ridicules comment I have heard yet! I wouldn't bleed out from the flu.



the only comparison I can see is the cytokine storm like in h1n1, swine flu, Spanish flu.

that comment is very misleading and unhelpful. who said that?


----------



## Litlbits

Marburg is another hemmorhagic virus, as deadly as ebola. Outbreak is in Uganda with 1 dead and 80 being monitored. The one that died was a health care worker in a hospital. His brother and another person who had close contact with the first man are now showing symptoms.


----------



## tab

Ebola is an rna virus, each case presents trillions of chances for mutation. Very few viruses are needed for infection. 

Comparing the flu to ebola is ludicrous. Ebola damages internal organs to the point death can happen months later due to organ failure. Sloughing the lining of your tongue, having the lining of your guts pooh out, your organs crack open, connective tissues "dissolve" don't come close to the flu. Wlso, as has been broughtvout, the stats on flu dath are open to debate. Further, we only have one ADMITTED case, which has been mishandled, let's see what hapens in the next few weeks onshore here. Meanwhile the dead keep piling up in Africa, but hey that is no worry. /sarc/

Not sure where there is 90% survival rate. I have been following this since March. What keeps getting harped on is there are likely THOUSANDS more dead than official numbers due to remoteness of villages. Right now, according to official numbers there are more dead than ALL the other ebola outbreaks combined.

Does Marburg have the same incubation period? That brings up another issue, one nurse manifested ebola 28 days after exposure, subsequently dying. I read the average time is 4-5 days.


----------



## terri9630

Now I have to go look up Marburg.


----------



## terri9630

gibbsgirl said:


> the only comparison I can see is the cytokine storm like in h1n1, swine flu, Spanish flu.
> 
> *that comment is very misleading and unhelpful. who said that?*



The OP I believe.


----------



## Spinner

The man who flew into Dallas from Africa died today. The family he was visiting has been quarantined all except the husband who is still allowed to go to work daily.


----------



## countrytime

Trainwrek ""In sanitary conditions, with just very basic medical care the Ebola virus is little more than a bad flu."


----------



## just_sawing

The problem that I have is why is the government not using this as an educational moment for all. It would improve the country if more people knew what to do for improved health not just Ebola.


----------



## Trainwrek

countrytime said:


> Trainwrek ""In sanitary conditions, with just very basic medical care the Ebola virus is little more than a bad flu."


I was wrong about this. After checking around and finding the statistics, it seems as though the flu is much MUCH more of a threat than Ebola. Ebola has killed some 2000+ people worldwide since 1976. The flu kills some 20,000 -30,000 people EVERY YEAR, in AMERICA ALONE.

The flu is about 1,000 times more deadly.


----------



## Ernie

Trainwrek said:


> I was wrong about this. After checking around and finding the statistics, it seems as though the flu is much MUCH more of a threat than Ebola. Ebola has killed some 2000+ people worldwide since 1976. The flu kills some 20,000 -30,000 people EVERY YEAR, in AMERICA ALONE.
> 
> The flu is about 1,000 times more deadly.


And vending machines kill more people than sharks do, but I'm still afraid of deep ocean.


----------



## chickenista

just_sawing said:


> The problem that I have is why is the government not using this as an educational moment for all. It would improve the country if more people knew what to do for improved health not just Ebola.


 
Oh!
That will NEVER happen.
There are a couple of reasons:

-The pharmaceutical companies would lose massive profits, and I do mean massive, if we got a bit healthier.
-The Big Ag companies would lose their massive profits if we got a bit healthier.
-The insurance companies would massive profits if we got a bit healthier.
-The American people would revolt if we tried a government based push to get healthier.

Examples:
-The Big-Ag spends tons of money lobbying against labeling our food.
They spend huge money lobbying against any changes to the EBT program. It was their lobbying that got the junkier foods allowed onto EBT, chips, sodas, sugary cereals etc..
-Pharmaceutical companies already lobbying and push for more and more prescriptions to be written when some simple lifestyle changes would suffice.
-And the American people.. oh lordy. The First Lady is making a push for our kids to get a little exercise and eat a veggie once in a while and you would think that she was trying to kill them! Parents raving, hours of talk show time about how the government shouldn't try to tell me what to feed my kid etc...

This is why there can be no governmental push for some education on how Americans can get healthy.

Oh.. I forgot.. the outrage! The furor! The hysteria when she suggested that they drink more water. 
People freaked the heck out. Over.water.


----------



## Trainwrek

Great article here about Ebola in The Guardian http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/05/ebola-worrying-disease

Just a few key quotes;



> The 800-plus deaths from Ebola in Africa so far this year are indisputably tragic ( article date ), but it is important to keep a sense of proportion &#8211; other infectious diseases are far, far deadlier.
> 
> Since the Ebola outbreak began in February, around 300,000 people have died from malaria, while tuberculosis has likely claimed over 600,000 lives. Ebola might have our attention, but it&#8217;s not even close to being the biggest problem in Africa right now. Even Lassa fever, which shares many of the terrifying symptoms of Ebola (including bleeding from the eyelids), kills many more than Ebola &#8211; and frequently finds its way to the US.


While news outlets sensationalize Ebola, there is another far deadlier disease coming for you;



> A deadly disease is set to hit the shores of the US, UK and much of the rest of the northern hemisphere in the coming months. *It will swamp our hospitals, lay millions low and by this time next year between 250,000 and 500,000 worldwide will be dead*, thousands of them in the US and Britain.
> 
> Despite the best efforts of the medical profession, there&#8217;s no reliable cure, and no available vaccine offers effective protection for longer than a few months at a time.
> 
> If you&#8217;ve been paying attention to recent, terrifying headlines, you may assume the illness is the Ebola virus. Instead, the above description refers to seasonal flu &#8211; not swine or bird flu, *but regular garden variety influenza.*


----------



## Trainwrek

Ernie said:


> And vending machines kill more people than sharks do, but I'm still afraid of deep ocean.


You can avoid sharks by staying out of ocean, its pretty easy to do. Likewise, you can avoid Ebola by staying away from Africa and avoiding the bodily fluids of people who are sick.


----------



## trulytricia

Spinner said:


> The man who flew into Dallas from Africa died today. The family he was visiting has been quarantined all except the husband who is still allowed to go to work daily.




Maybe he has. But it is still not being reported. 

If he doesn't make it here in the US then I just don't know what to say.


----------



## unregistered41671

I am pretty sure I have had the flu several times in my 60+ years and have never had to go to a hospital to be treated with IV meds and put in a quarantine section. I just did my best to stay in the bed and drink fluids, take a few over the counter meds and rest. 
I am still here and kicking pretty good.:banana::bouncy:

I seriously doubt that any encounter with Ebola would have the same outcome.


----------



## Darren

Trainwrek said:


> I was wrong about this. After checking around and finding the statistics, it seems as though the flu is much MUCH more of a threat than Ebola. Ebola has killed some 2000+ people worldwide since 1976. The flu kills some 20,000 -30,000 people EVERY YEAR, in AMERICA ALONE.
> 
> The flu is about 1,000 times more deadly.


 Flu kills more becasue of the difference in transmission. There's no guarantee Ebola won't evolve to have that ability.


----------



## Darren

Trainwrek said:


> I was wrong about this. After checking around and finding the statistics, it seems as though the flu is much MUCH more of a threat than Ebola. Ebola has killed some 2000+ people worldwide since 1976. The flu kills some 20,000 -30,000 people EVERY YEAR, in AMERICA ALONE.
> 
> The flu is about 1,000 times more deadly.


 Flu kills more because of the difference in transmission. There's no guarantee Ebola won't evolve to have that ability.


----------



## bluefish

You still haven't provided any links. All I've found with your numbers are articles that state CDC estimates are......

This table comes from the National Vital Statistics Report for 2010 vol 61, number 4, pg 39. I am not a google whiz so someone else may be able to find more current info. To my understanding, this is from actual causes of death stated on death certificates. The numbers you come up with seem to be influenza and pneumonia combined. NOT merely influenza.

I have seen that some take issue with even the 500 deaths from influenza stating that only a percentage of people with influenza symptoms have influenza. The others have rhinovirus or something else but I coulnd't find any solid links to back it up so we'll go with the 500 number for now.

Also, this is just for the US.


Influenza and pneumonia ......................(J09&#8211;J18)
50,097 - Total
195 - under 1 yr
91 - 1-4 yr
71 - 5-14 yr
181 - 15-24yr
385 - 25-34 yr
773 - 35-44 yr
1,926 - 45-54 yr
3,627 - 55-64 yr
6,066 - 65-74 yr
13,369 - 75-84 yr
23,411 - over 85 yr
2 - not stated
*Influenza ...............................(J09&#8211;J11)
500 - Total
16 - under 1 yr
13 - 1-4 yr
12 - 5-14 yr
31 - 15-24 yr
44 - 25-34 yr
53 - 35-44 yr
103 - 45-54 yr
84 - 55-64 yr
39 - 65-74 yr
44 - 75-84 yr
61 - over 85 yr
&#8211; not stated*
Pneumonia .............................(J12&#8211;J18)
49,597 - Total
179 - under 1 yr
78 - 1-4 yr
59 - 5-14 yr
150 - 15-24 yr
341 - 25-34 yr
720 - 35-44 yr
1,823 - 45-54 yr
3,543 - 55-64 yr
6,027 - 65-74 yr
13,325 - 75-84 yr
23,350 - over 85 yr
2 - not stated

I have absolutely no idea how to link a pdf doc. If anybody knows and can tell me, let me know and I'll do it.


----------



## bluefish

Also, really think about those 20,000 - 30,000 numbers. If that many die every year from flu, most of us would know, or know of, someone who has died from flu. I don't know anybody or even know anybody who knows of somebody who has died from flu.


----------



## chickenista

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/death-by-influenza_b_4661442.html

Oh.. read this!

Very, very, very interesting on the actual numbers of deaths by influenza.
Way! Way! Way! off.
And the reasons behind the inflated numbers.


Just a wee snippet..

"The CDC's decision to play up flu deaths dates back a decade, when it realized the public wasn't following its advice on the flu vaccine. During the 2003 flu season "the manufacturers were telling us that they weren't receiving a lot of orders for vaccine,"Dr. Glen Nowak, associate director for communications at CDC's National Immunization Program, told National Public Radio. "It really did look like we needed to do something to encourage people to get a flu shot."


----------



## wendle

Sierra Leone recorded 121 deaths from Ebola and 80 new infections in one day. That's pretty scary. 
Interesting that we aren't seeing much of anything on the news regarding the status of those exposed or Duncan. There really should be some kind of map of actual cases of any kind of disease to keep people informed of potentially dangerous areas. 

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/eb...-121-ebola-deaths-81-new-cases-single-n219151


----------



## where I want to

Ebola is a slow moving epidemic, which is why it is possible to contain easily if everything is done right. But everything is mostly not done right. A mistake or unawareness allows one person to inect 2 or 3 others, rather than the 10 others the flu infects. 
But the results of contracting Ebola are so dire, that few just recover on their own like they do with the flu. So maybe 2 of the 3 infected don't know it and go one to infect 3 more each. And their deaths actually are more likely to spread the disease than air born flu does after death. 
It is so much more inevitable than the march of the flu, which may infect a huge number more people, most of whom are likely to survive. Eboka is not tgat survivable without heroic care.


----------



## terri9630

thermopkt said:


> Also, really think about those 20,000 - 30,000 numbers. If that many die every year from flu, most of us would know, or know of, someone who has died from flu. I don't know anybody or even know anybody who knows of somebody who has died from flu.


That would be more than the entire population of my town.


----------



## where I want to

I think the flu does kill a large number yearly but they tend to be those we expect to die, like the unemployed old or already sick, so we don't notice it as much as if it killed healthy , working peopke we depend on to be working.

And that is why it is so much worse. The flu, unless it is the 1918 epidemic kind, killing mostly young people, does not so thoroughly disrupt society's survival itself.


----------



## tab

Officially there are over 3 thousand dead from Ebola. If someone has researched this, that figure is easily obtained. Not worth engaging.


----------



## where I want to

tab said:


> Officially there are over 3 thousand dead from Ebola. If someone has researched this, that figure is easily obtained. Not worth engaging.


So you think if no action is taken, that won't increase?


----------



## terri9630

tab said:


> Officially there are over 3 thousand dead from Ebola. If someone has researched this, that figure is easily obtained. Not worth engaging.


Then don't.


----------



## Trainwrek

Darren said:


> Flu kills more because of the difference in transmission. There's no guarantee Ebola won't evolve to have that ability.


No there's no guarantee. There's no guarantee that a meteor won't collide with earth and end all life as we know it. So far, as it stands Ebola ranks very low on the global threat meter.


----------



## kycountry

Trainwrek said:


> No there's no guarantee. There's no guarantee that a meteor won't collide with earth and end all life as we know it. So far, as it stands Ebola ranks very low on the global threat meter.


That is exactly why nasa has shown interest in keeping a stock pile of nuclear weapons for just that meteor/commit.. 

So, your statement really doesn't help your point as much as you think..


----------



## gibbsgirl

Trainwrek said:


> No there's no guarantee. There's no guarantee that a meteor won't collide with earth and end all life as we know it. So far, as it stands Ebola ranks very low on the global threat meter.


I guess I feel that the level of unaware people in the population (US and global) in regards to ebola and generally just infection control makes it higher on the "global threat meter" for me.

I kinda look at it like this. the tsunami disasters on boxing day a few years back were catastrophic. but, did they need to be? sure, "the odds of" according to the scientists these disasters it always gets determined to be once is a whatever (usually once only several generations) type of event. but, when it does hit, the world as we know is changed for many people forever.

had there been either or both of the following things in place, we might not have lost as many people.

1. a more effective alert system for the population.
2. a better cultural awareness that when the ocean level drops out past normal low-tide, you evacuate immediately.

hundreds of thousands of people are gone from us. many survivors are carrying on in life without loved ones. it is very sad. some places had local, indigenous populations who escaped major losses because they had kept alive the "go to higher ground when the water goes out" life lesson.

I think we are walking a fine line where ebola or any number of other infectious diseases could be devastating to us in this way. we're too reliant on the govt for protection, we're too reliant on vaccines, we're not vigilant in personal responsibility. the health officials seem to only want to lull us all into a false sense of security. it wouldn't take much to have us overwhelmed and left with devastation like the tsunami as far as potential loss of people.


----------



## MO_cows

Maybe the survival rate of the US people so far, and that reassuring news footage of the patients coming out of ambulance in their "bubble" has given some a false sense of security? 

It's one thing to have one or two patients who need that level of care and biosecurity. Yes, they recovered, mostly because they had all the resources that could possibly be mustered thrown at them. But what if it's 10? 100? 1000? At some point the system is overwhelmed. 

We still have to wait out the incubation period for the people who were exposed by the man in the Texas case. We might have dodged that bullet, or maybe not. 

There have been 2 ebola patients taken to Omaha. One recently, one about the same time as the first ones in Atlanta. 

What happens when every known case isn't "newsworthy" any more? You could have an ebola patient right in your community and not know it.

This is definitely something to watch closely. And it isn't "nothing".


----------



## tab

where I want to said:


> So you think if no action is taken, that won't increase?


No, I think the numbers are waaay higher as I posted earlier. The op keeps quoting 2000 dead which has been surpassed. No matter what links or facts posted, same incorrect info. It isn't worth engaging a person that doesn't update the most basic facts. If my earlier post was read I thought I was pretty clear that many doctors fear the dead may be many thousands.


----------



## fishinshawn

The only thing that is keeping ebola from becoming a global threat is the way in which it spreads. It is evolving/mutating and if it is not wiped out before it mutates to something that transmits as easily as the flu we will all have some major problems to deal with. 

Presently we have 5 reported cases, that I know of, and 1 death. Even with a maximum amount of resources devoted to saving those individuals thats a 20% death rate.Ask yourself how those numbers would change if hospitals around the country got 100 cases in a 24hr period? What if it spread as easily as the flu? Even if people survived the country would grind to a halt. Businesses would shut down, transportation, banking, local government agencies such as the police and even the doctors and nurses would get sick. This is something that could take us back to the stone ages if it mutates to something more easily spread. That is why they are workign so hard to get rid of it, that is also why some news papers are doing fluff pieces on it trying to play down the dangers, the government doesn't want panic, they can't afford it in this instance.


----------



## farmrbrown

Trainwrek said:


> I was wrong about this. After checking around and finding the statistics, it seems as though the flu is much MUCH more of a threat than Ebola. Ebola has killed some 2000+ people worldwide since 1976. The flu kills some 20,000 -30,000 people EVERY YEAR, in AMERICA ALONE.
> 
> *The flu is about 1,000 times more deadly.*




:umno:

Setting aside the obvious mistake about Ebola only killing 2,000 since 1976 (2014's numbers should pass that alone), let's say I were to accept the roughly 50% mortality rate that the WHO reports over that span of time.
That is a believable figure for a deadly disease that causes internal hemorrhaging and no known cure.

Let's say we also use the CDC figures for annual flu deaths. As the link below shows, they really stretch it to get to the 20,000 level by estimating and assuming a lot of respiratory and circulatory cause of deaths, to be labeled flu deaths, but we'll overlook that as well.

Now, how many people get the flu every year?
We are comparing the mortality rates of the two diseases to evaluate which one is "deadlier", right?
Of course "deadlier" based on total deaths, regardless of infection chances would like comparing auto crash deaths without regard to miles driven by the individual. 

I'll have to go get the stats to get the correct mortality rate for the flu, but I'm going to guess it will work out way less than 1% using CDC data......

http://www.flu.gov/about_the_flu/seasonal/
*Seasonal flu is a contagious respiratory illness caused by flu viruses. Approximately 5-20% of U.S. residents get the flu each year.*


According to the Gov't, 5-20% of the population get the flu each year, about what I figured (my guess was 10%)
300 million people.
5% is 15 million, 20% is 60 million.

I'll take the low figure to skew the results in you favor as much as possible. If I use 60 million, I might not have enough zeroes on my calculator for a percentage that small, lol.

OK, 30,000 deaths for 15 million cases (Best numbers CDC provides for a "deadly" outcome")

That comes to .002 or .2%..............TADA! Less than 1% mortality rate.
So much for the "deadly" annual flu.
Interesting though, the same CDC link claims death rates higher than 10%.
You have to go into the links where they report state by state to find that claim, but I could have read it wrong and too fast.
Obviously they think no one with more than 2nd math will ever double check their claims. 







chickenista said:


> http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/death-by-influenza_b_4661442.html
> 
> Oh.. read this!
> 
> Very, very, very interesting on the actual numbers of deaths by influenza.
> Way! Way! Way! off.
> And the reasons behind the inflated numbers.
> 
> 
> Just a wee snippet..
> 
> "The CDC's decision to play up flu deaths dates back a decade, when it realized the public wasn't following its advice on the flu vaccine. During the 2003 flu season "the manufacturers were telling us that they weren't receiving a lot of orders for vaccine,"Dr. Glen Nowak, associate director for communications at CDC's National Immunization Program, told National Public Radio. "It really did look like we needed to do something to encourage people to get a flu shot."



Interesting, and not that surprising.
I also got the yearly CDC numbers from 1976 to 2007. They tend to coincide with the article's timeframe.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5933a1.htm


----------



## manygoatsnmore

Spinner said:


> The man who flew into Dallas from Africa died today. The family he was visiting has been quarantined all except the husband who is still allowed to go to work daily.


Where did you hear this? On every news source I checked today it was reported (by family, apparently) that he is still in critical condition, on a vent and dialysis. :shrug:

As for the original poster, if I'm given the choice between catching the flu or Ebola, I'll take the flu, thanks.


----------



## copperkid3

just_sawing said:


> The problem that I have is why is the government not using this as an educational moment for all. It would improve the country if more people knew what to do for improved health not just Ebola.


**********************
importance of good health, by having the POTUS setting an example 
of getting out into the fresh air and doing some 'exercise'... 
no ebola virus is going to get into those lungs.


----------



## unregistered65598

As for the op I'm calling troll as he has not offered anything useful to s&p.


----------



## kycountry

manygoatsnmore said:


> Where did you hear this? On every news source I checked today it was reported (by family, apparently) that he is still in critical condition, on a vent and dialysis. :shrug:
> 
> As for the original poster, if I'm given the choice between catching the flu or Ebola, I'll take the flu, thanks.


This was originally reported by Reuters, quoted in an Israel news post with a link to the main source that magically disappeared... and I mean POOF, GONE, NOTTA..


----------



## manygoatsnmore

kycountry said:


> This was originally reported by Reuters, quoted in an Israel news post with a link to the main source that magically disappeared... and I mean POOF, GONE, NOTTA..


Wow. How strange is that? Was it removed for wrong info, do you suppose...or is my tin foil hat in need of tightening?


----------



## copperkid3

http://americanpowerblog.blogspot.com/2014/10/report-thomas-duncan-has-died-first-us.html

"Thomas A. Duncan, who became ill with Ebola after arriving from West Africa in Dallas two weeks ago, 
succumbed to the virus today (Sunday), reports Reuters. Duncan was fighting for his life at a Dallas hospital 
on today after his condition worsened to critical, according to the director of the US Centers for Disease Control."


*Well..... there goes that 100% survival stats of successfully treating 
ebola patients in the good ole U.S. of A., right out the window.

So much for superior and modern medicine.

*Found another interesting article following the one cited above, in which the Liberia gooberment has plans
on prosecuting Mr. Duncan for lying and bringing the ebola virus to the U.S. Well.....good, it saves the U.S.
taxpayer on footing the bill(s) of prosecuting him, as well as allowing them to take possession of how to 
dispose of his body.....let their legal system take it to the next step and try and convict a corpse!
Hope he gets a fair and impartial trial. Wonder what the penalty will be for that 'crime'.....10-20 yrs...or LIFE?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/...te-ebola-us-thomas-eric-duncan_n_5921848.html


----------



## kycountry

manygoatsnmore said:


> Wow. How strange is that? Was it removed for wrong info, do you suppose...or is my tin foil hat in need of tightening?


And this whole DANG time I was thinking it might have been an error when they were translating the story.. 

What frequency is your tin foil hat set to? Mine must be out of tune if I couldn't think up a better response than that...


----------



## kycountry

manygoatsnmore said:


> Wow. How strange is that? Was it removed for wrong info, do you suppose...or is my tin foil hat in need of tightening?


Also noticing you are a RN... 

Did it ever cross your mind that cdc came out telling that he was still fighting the virus even though his organs are failing, on a vent, and has been for days.. that they may be using him as a host for the virus so they can test 'experimental' Ebola drugs when in fact there may be little to no chance he pulls through..????? 

If you can honesty say they wouldn't, I'll hang my tin foil hat anywhere you want it..


----------



## tiffnzacsmom

To the person who has never heard of someone dying from the flu, I have last year father of two that I watched grow up.


----------



## gibbsgirl

manygoatsnmore said:


> Wow. How strange is that? Was it removed for wrong info, do you suppose...or is my tin foil hat in need of tightening?


if it was an error it should have stayed up with a retraction, not a deletion.


----------



## terri9630

Merks said:


> As for the op I'm calling troll as he has not offered anything useful to s&p.


I was going to ask which agency he worked for.


----------



## soulsurvivor

kycountry said:


> Also noticing you are a RN...
> 
> Did it ever cross your mind that cdc came out telling that he was still fighting the virus even though his organs are failing, on a vent, and has been for days.. that they may be using him as a host for the virus so they can test 'experimental' Ebola drugs when in fact there may be little to no chance he pulls through..?????
> 
> If you can honesty say they wouldn't, I'll hang my tin foil hat anywhere you want it..


I'm right there with you on that thought. According to the wiki article on ebola in the US, they had Mr. Duncan on an experimental drug called brincidofovir as of Oct 6th. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ebola_virus_cases_in_the_United_States

And I've read in other articles along the way that they use the blood of those that have been cured to inject into the critically sick. The implication was that it was a last ditch effort to save them. This is treatment they've been trying over in Africa.


----------



## Glade Runner

Now there are four people in the hospital in Madrid evidently due to transmission within Spain during treatment of a victim from Africa. They are monitoring 20 more. Worrisome that this transmission was though medical staff.


----------



## Ernie

soulsurvivor said:


> I'm right there with you on that thought. According to the wiki article on ebola in the US, they had Mr. Duncan on an experimental drug called brincidofovir as of Oct 6th.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ebola_virus_cases_in_the_United_States
> 
> And I've read in other articles along the way that they use the blood of those that have been cured to inject into the critically sick. The implication was that it was a last ditch effort to save them. This is treatment they've been trying over in Africa.


I wasn't aware that they could keep someone alive long after his organs had completely liquified.

Is he even "alive" in a legal sense at that point? Or are they just refusing to pronounce the time of death so they don't look like they failed?

Really ... I don't know what's going on. Too many news sources reporting conflicting information and I don't trust any of them.

Why are there no preppers inside that hospital who might tell us the truth?


----------



## kycountry

soulsurvivor said:


> I'm right there with you on that thought. According to the wiki article on ebola in the US, they had Mr. Duncan on an experimental drug called brincidofovir as of Oct 6th.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ebola_virus_cases_in_the_United_States
> 
> And I've read in other articles along the way that they use the blood of those that have been cured to inject into the critically sick. The implication was that it was a last ditch effort to save them. This is treatment they've been trying over in Africa.


The doctor that was treated in NC. Was given blood from a survivor for its antibodies..


----------



## Jim-mi

Going into that or any hors-bittle is way off my priority chart....

Heaven help all the hors-bittle staff around the country . . . .


----------



## hengal

willbuck1 said:


> There have been over 300 documented mutations in this strain since the start of the outbreak. One of the reasons that a vaccine is so hard to achieve is because it mutates so easily. The thing about this outbreak that makes it scary is in all the other outbreaks it mutated to be less fatal and essentially died out. Hasn't happened here and doesn't look likely to. The experts have said the longer it is going around the more likely it is to find a mutation that makes it more easily passed on. Most diseases are able to be passed on before symptoms are displayed which leads me to think it is only a matter of time until it happens with this one.
> *All it really takes for this disease to really overwhelm one cities ability to deal with it is one food service worker with a cold on the day he becomes contagious for ebola and working in a moderately popular eating establishment.*





Exactly. I'm not an alarmist by any stretch, but this whole thing really does concern me. Will there come a day when we won't want to leave our houses? How many are really prepared not to go to the grocery store for long periods of time? It's given me a whole new urgency in being prepared thats for sure..... and I can't even claim to be a prepper.


----------



## Darren

Trainwrek said:


> No there's no guarantee. There's no guarantee that a meteor won't collide with earth and end all life as we know it. So far, as it stands Ebola ranks very low on the global threat meter.


It's always the outliers that spark our imagination. Madrid, Spain now has a handful of Ebola cases.


----------



## soulsurvivor

Darren said:


> It's always the outliers that spark our imagination. Madrid, Spain now has a handful of Ebola cases.


Here's today's report on the people in Spain. One nurse has been put into isolation after testing positive for ebola. She's the same nurse that cared for the Spanish priest that died on Sept 25th. She had gone on vacation but checked herself into the hospital on Sunday.

http://hisz.rsoe.hu/alertmap/site/index.php?pageid=event_desc&edis_id=BH-20141007-45545-ESP

The nurse is the only in quarantine but all her contacts are being searched out and put under observation.


----------



## wendle

Looks like different opinions on how Ebola is spread. 
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ebola-questions-20141007-story.html#page=1


----------



## where I want to

wendle said:


> Looks like different opinions on how Ebola is spread.
> http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ebola-questions-20141007-story.html#page=1


Not really different ideas as much as acknowledging many scientists are not sure that is only transmitted in the way the bureaucrats say. No one has experience enough to be sure although that does not stop a lot of people from saying.
I read an article about the transmission of the plague in the middle ages and scientists are still arguing about that 500 years later.

One of the scary scenarios that keeps crossing my mind is that person with ebola dies or gets killed in a place where the body is not found. Various animals, domestic or wild, eat it then it gets carried to other humans as the animals are not killed by it neccessarily but can transmit it to people.


----------



## KimTN

Well, I'm a RN and have worked most of the major hospitals in my city. I can tell you that on a good day, we don't really have room for all the patients coming into the hospital. Most of the ERs are closed to incoming ambulances on the weekends due to overcrowding of critical patients. Patients who really need to be in the hospital can spend days in hallways. We won't discuss the crowded waiting rooms full of people trying to use the ER for their primary care physician. Keep all that in mind when I tell you that there is no way that we will ever be able to care for people falling ill to Ebola or the flu. After just a handful of Ebola patients, we will be sunk.

I have worked the isolation wards, and believe me when I tell you that sometimes we don't have enough of those beds either. Were in the world would we put Ebola victims??? Are we just to kick out all the other patients, who will die without medical care??

Sometimes, medical staff are not as astute as they should be. I can just imagine that an Ebola patient could be overlooked and placed in among the rest of the patients. What then? Or, how about the Ebola patient that wanders in, puking his guts out, and sits in the ER for hours on end?

I am sure that the doctors and nurses, that worked with the Ebola patients and later contracted Ebola, were well aware that they were at great risk and took every precaution they could. That fact worries me greatly. How in the world did they contract Ebola after taking all those precautions?? This disease is apparently a lot easier to get than the CDC is letting on. I have also read that Ebola can live on a surface for several days. That, in my book, makes it very contagious. 

Comparing this virus to aids is silly. I've worked with tons of aids victims and not worn that much gear. If I wasn't dealing with body fluids, I rarely wore any gear at all. Never got HIV. We were tested every year to make sure. HIV will not live at all when the temp of the fluid drops much past body temperature. It certainly does not survive on a surface.

My greatest concern is the time it takes for someone to show signs of illness. The time of contagion has not been established. What if we start finding out that people, on the plane with this guy, are actually sick, and exposed tons of people on their own?? This could be a huge mess. Medical staff in Spain have contracted this disease in a modern hospital. How many people have they exposed on the outside?? Only time will tell. In my opinion, it is something to cause concern. Especially, if other people fall ill with casual contact.


----------



## Darren

The official word from on high will always be to not panic. A few involved with Ebola have tried to speak out. Their message didn't have much impact the way the media decides what is news and what isn't.


----------



## Ernie

So far it seems like those RN's and such who work in the healthcare system either report that everything is great and we shouldn't worry, or report that everything is horrible and we shouldn't go there at all.

I don't know what to think about that.


----------



## KimTN

Ernie said:


> So far it seems like those RN's and such who work in the healthcare system either report that everything is great and we shouldn't worry, or report that everything is horrible and we shouldn't go there at all.
> 
> I don't know what to think about that.




My experience has been that the upper management RNs seem to think everything is glorious. They are delusional. The RNs on the front lines know that everything is not good. We actually do all the work.


----------



## copperkid3

Ernie said:


> I wasn't aware that they could keep someone alive long after his organs had completely liquified.
> 
> Is he even "alive" in a legal sense at that point? *Or are they just refusing to pronounce the time of death so they don't look like they failed?*
> 
> Really ... I don't know what's going on. Too many news sources reporting conflicting information and I don't trust any of them.
> 
> *Why are there no preppers inside that hospital who might tell us the truth?*


**********************************
As to your 2nd question, if you were a prepper and didn't have *ANY*
business being in or around that particular hospital......why would you
put yourself or your family, friends, co-workers, etc. into the possible
position of having tracked something home on your skin or in your lungs 
or within your blood?

If on the other hand, you happen to work within that building as a health
care provider in some capacity and also happen to be a prepper on the side,
it would seem to me that you might be constrained from saying anything to anyone because of the Hippa laws.

HIPAA is a federal law passed in 1997. All health care providers must comply. 
A health care provider is anyone who treats you or provides health related services. 
This includes doctors, dentists, hospitals, mental health providers, rest homes,
nurse assistants, Paramedics, etc.. You *CANNOT* release *ANY* information to *
ANYONE* unless that person falls under a HIPAA exception. 

An exception would be that your patient has given written permission to release 
information under HIPAA that has an expiration date....a Court Order requires the release of information...
a Guardian or Parent requests the information....another health care provider needs the information 
to provide continuing services to the patient...the health insurance company needs health care info, etc...

Believe me, I'd LOVE to know what has happened to Mr. Duncan as much as the next guy inquiring,
but I'm NOT about to drive a 1000+ miles to find out. (Seriously doubt that I could get close enough 
anyway - let alone, even willing to get in touch with those who might be able to tell me.)


----------



## manygoatsnmore

kycountry said:


> Also noticing you are a RN...
> 
> Did it ever cross your mind that cdc came out telling that he was still fighting the virus even though his organs are failing, on a vent, and has been for days.. that they may be using him as a host for the virus so they can test 'experimental' Ebola drugs when in fact there may be little to no chance he pulls through..?????
> 
> If you can honesty say they wouldn't, I'll hang my tin foil hat anywhere you want it..


Every hospital has an ethics committee and at some point, if they feel there is no chance of recovery - brain death - the committee will meet and vote to turn off the vent. In a CDC facility, where they have some control over this, I could maybe see it happening that they could keep him on a vent and try anything experimental in hopes it would help others down the road. I'm not so sure they could get away with that in a public hospital. Yes, they can and are giving him experimental drugs - after all, when you are in critical condition, on a vent and dialysis, the family will give consent to try pretty much anything that might give them a glimmer of hope.



soulsurvivor said:


> I'm right there with you on that thought. According to the wiki article on ebola in the US, they had Mr. Duncan on an experimental drug called brincidofovir as of Oct 6th.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ebola_virus_cases_in_the_United_States
> 
> And I've read in other articles along the way that they use the blood of those that have been cured to inject into the critically sick. The implication was that it was a last ditch effort to save them. This is treatment they've been trying over in Africa.





kycountry said:


> The doctor that was treated in NC. Was given blood from a survivor for its antibodies..


The blood of survivors seems to have some efficacy, but isn't a cure all. I wonder about how much plasma it would take to treat infected patients? Do they have to worry about leukocyte incompatibility? I'm pretty sure they aren't just giving whole blood, so at least you don't have blood type compatibility to think about. Just some of the random thoughts I've had running through my head today. :shrug:

I have heard reports today that Mr. Duncan is showing signs of slight improvement. I hope and pray that is true, and that the cameraman admitted to hospital in Nebraska is also doing well. I understand he (the cameraman) is also receiving experimental drug treatment.


----------



## manygoatsnmore

KimTN said:


> My experience has been that the upper management RNs seem to think everything is glorious. They are delusional. The RNs on the front lines know that everything is not good. We actually do all the work.


Amen, and preach it sister! Those working the floor know how hard it can be to give exceptional, compassionate care to each and every patient when you are understaffed for acuity, slammed in the ED, or just having a patient or 2 trying to crash at the same time. 12 hours is a long time to run your tuchus off! 

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the management either thinks everything is fine and dandy, or gives the floor RNs grief for not having high enough patient satisfaction ratings. I'm sorry I couldn't get a popsicle for Mr. A, the (very demanding) heroin abscess patient in 702 when my respiratory patients in 704 and 706, both isolation patients, are both waiting for a critical care bed, and I'm trying to keep them alive until I can get them there. That means switching in and out of isolation gear constantly to run between rooms, and waiting for more gowns to be delivered to the floor because I've gone through 20 of them in the last hour.

I love being a nurse, and I'm a darn good one. But, I'm enjoying early retirement and not having quite so much stress in my life. If Ebola comes to my community, I'm torn between wanting to just hole up and stay safely isolated, or answering the call to help. Morally, where is my first obligation - to my family or the sick?


----------



## Txsteader

||Downhome|| said:


> I read a book long ago about a ebola outbreak.
> 
> Mostly fiction but based on a real case scenario.


Yep, The Hot Zone. I read it, too, and it scared the bejeezes out of me. 

Consider - there are different strains of Ebola, some more deadly than others. While the current one is deadly, from what I've read, it's not as bad as the Zaire strain.

Regardless, judging by how it's been handled thus far, I'm taking no chances and certainly not trusting government on this one! Taking all precautions here and prepared to lock-down if necessary.


----------



## soulsurvivor

manygoatsnmore said:


> Amen, and preach it sister! Those working the floor know how hard it can be to give exceptional, compassionate care to each and every patient when you are understaffed for acuity, slammed in the ED, or just having a patient or 2 trying to crash at the same time. 12 hours is a long time to run your tuchus off!
> 
> Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the management either thinks everything is fine and dandy, or gives the floor RNs grief for not having high enough patient satisfaction ratings. I'm sorry I couldn't get a popsicle for Mr. A, the (very demanding) heroin abscess patient in 702 when my respiratory patients in 704 and 706, both isolation patients, are both waiting for a critical care bed, and I'm trying to keep them alive until I can get them there. That means switching in and out of isolation gear constantly to run between rooms, and waiting for more gowns to be delivered to the floor because I've gone through 20 of them in the last hour.
> 
> I love being a nurse, and I'm a darn good one. But, I'm enjoying early retirement and not having quite so much stress in my life. If Ebola comes to my community, I'm torn between wanting to just hole up and stay safely isolated, or answering the call to help. Morally, where is my first obligation - to my family or the sick?


Sorry to say but you might want to check the emergency health laws in your state. I'm thinking there may be legislation that provides for the call up of all health personnel in the state during a public health emergency regardless of whether they're retired or not. In a google search type in Model Emergency Health Power Act + "your state".


----------



## Bubba1358

copperkid3 said:


> HIPAA is a federal law passed in 1997. All health care providers must comply.
> A health care provider is anyone who treats you or provides health related services.
> This includes doctors, dentists, hospitals, mental health providers, rest homes,
> nurse assistants, Paramedics, etc.. You *CANNOT* release *ANY* information to *
> ANYONE* unless that person falls under a HIPAA exception.


This also applies to executives, managers, billing/insurance personnel, and even the front desk staff who signs people in. I work in the health care insurance industry, and a few years back, I created mandatory online HIPAA/HITECH training for all non-hospital folks at the $33b company I worked for.

Nobody is legally authorized to release any info unless it's been pre-authorized by the patient or someone otherwise legally authorized to do so. The penalties range from 6-figure fines to jail time.

FYI, as this is yet another part of the puzzle.


----------



## lynnabyrd

Duncan "OFFICIALLY" died today. 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...0/08/texas-ebola-patient-has-died-from-ebola/

So if we're ONLY counting just the US cases, as the OP was, there have been... 5? And one has died, so now we're at 20% fatality in this country. 

If it spreads here, and stays at that rate, that would be absolutely horrific. If it spreads here and the rate increases to the same as Africa... I have no words.


----------



## CottageLife

lynnabyrd said:


> Duncan "OFFICIALLY" died today.
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...0/08/texas-ebola-patient-has-died-from-ebola/
> 
> So if we're ONLY counting just the US cases, as the OP was, there have been... 5? And one has died, so now we're at 20% fatality in this country.
> 
> If it spreads here, and stays at that rate, that would be absolutely horrific. If it spreads here and the rate increases to the same as Africa... I have no words.


Out of the 5, isn't Duncan the only one who didn't get the 'special meds' there that they tried out on the first few? Or was that the first 3 who got the special meds, and the 5th is the photographer who just got back to the US?


----------



## lynnabyrd

No, he didn't get the special meds because there were only a few doses available, IIRC. A patient over in Norway (Sweden? Can't remember now) got the very last dose of Zmapp. The manufacturer is hopefully scrambling to make more, but I imagine it's a slow or expensive (or both) process.

I don't *think* the camera guy has gotten it either, but I'm not positive.


----------



## sidepasser

Duncan has passed away as of today. That might be "a lot of ado about something" and for sure his passing has upset those stats...


----------



## KimTN

soulsurvivor said:


> Sorry to say but you might want to check the emergency health laws in your state. I'm thinking there may be legislation that provides for the call up of all health personnel in the state during a public health emergency regardless of whether they're retired or not. In a google search type in Model Emergency Health Power Act + "your state".


Sorry, but I don't really care about what they say. I took early retirement as well. I did not sign on for a suicide mission, and don't believe that anyone else should be dragged into it either. What are they going to do?? Take my license?? Besides, I have a gun that says that I'm not going.


----------



## Ernie

KimTN said:


> Sorry, but I don't really care about what they say. I took early retirement as well. I did not sign on for a suicide mission, and don't believe that anyone else should be dragged into it either. What are they going to do?? Take my license?? Besides, I have a gun that says that I'm not going.


Good for you. The Constitution outlawed slavery. If they come for anyone to force them to work, then we should all be taking up arms.

Whether it's digging ditches or administering blood tests.


----------



## rkintn

KimTN said:


> Sorry, but I don't really care about what they say. I took early retirement as well. I did not sign on for a suicide mission, and don't believe that anyone else should be dragged into it either. What are they going to do?? Take my license?? Besides, I have a gun that says that I'm not going.


Exactly.


----------



## Coco

hey anyone can be in denial but the facts are the facts, we try not to be sheep here.


----------



## tab

Another possible ebola case in Texas. Claims to have been in contact with Duncan and recent travel to West Africa.

I read a comment on a blog today, ebola is here. Flown in, on purpose, not going away. Might get beaten back but will rear up again, just like it has for decades in Africa. That was the jist of the comment. Gave me pause for thouht. Eradicating any illness takes years. Not sure how many of the "eradicated" ilnesses are RNA viruses like Ebola, either. 

ANY healthcare worker that comes in contact with a suspected case of ebola either has more nerve and compassion than most or else is foolish. I lean heavy on the compassion and a ton of kudos to them.


----------



## Lonesomelov

http://www.msdsonline.com/resources/msds-resources/free-safety-data-sheet-index/ebola-virus.aspx/

SECTION V &#8211; FIRST AID / MEDICAL 

SURVEILLANCE: Monitor anyone suffering from an acute febrile illness that has recently travelled to rural sub-Saharan Africa, especially if haemorrhagic manifestations occur (3). Diagnosis can be quickly done in an appropriately equipped laboratory using a multitude of approaches including ELISA based techniques to detect anti-Ebola antibodies or viral antigens (12), RT-PCR to detect viral RNA, immunoelectron microscopy to detect Ebola virus particles in tissues and cells, and indirect immunofluorescence to detect antiviral antibodies (1, 2, 12, 21). It is useful to note that the Marburg virus is morphologically indistinguishable from the Ebola virus, and laboratory surveillance of Ebola is extremely hazardous and should be performed in a Containment Level 4 facility (1, 2, 12, 35). 

Note: All diagnostic methods are not necessarily available in all countries. 

FIRST AID/TREATMENT: There is no effective antiviral treatment (23, 26). Instead, treatment is supportive, and is directed at maintaining renal function and electrolyte balance and combating haemorrhage and shock (15). Transfusion of convalescent serum may be beneficial (3). Post-exposure treatment with a nematode-derived anticoagulation protein and a recombinant vesicular stomatitis virus vaccine expressing the Zaire Ebola virus glycoprotein have been shown to have 33% and 50% efficacy, respectively, in humans (4). Recent studies have shown that small interfering RNAs (siRNAs) can be potentially effective in silencing Zaire Ebola virus RNA polymerase L, and treatments in rhesus macaque monkeys have resulted in 100% efficacy when administered everyday for 6 days; however, delivery of the nucleic acid still remains an obstacle. 

IMMUNIZATION: None (23). 

PROPHYLAXIS: None. Management of the Ebola virus is solely based on isolation and barrier-nursing with symptomatic and supportive treatments (4).


----------



## Lonesomelov

SECTION IV &#8211; STABILITY AND VIABILITY 

DRUG SUSCEPTIBILITY: Unknown. S-adenosylhomocysteine hydrolase inhibitors have been found to have complete mortality protection in mice infected with a lethal dose of Ebola virus (30). 

DRUG RESISTANCE: There are no known antiviral treatments available for human infections. 

SUSCEPTIBILITY TO DISINFECTANTS: Ebola virus is susceptible to sodium hypochlorite, lipid solvents, phenolic disinfectants, peracetic acid, methyl alcohol, ether, sodium deoxycholate, 2% glutaraldehyde, 0.25% Triton X-100, &#946;-propiolactone, 3% acetic acid (pH 2.5), formaldehyde and paraformaldehyde, and detergents such as SDS (20, 21, 31-34). 

PHYSICAL INACTIVATION: Ebola are moderately thermolabile and can be inactivated by heating for 30 minutes to 60 minutes at 60ÂºC, boiling for 5 minutes, gamma irradiation (1.2 x106 rads to 1.27 x106 rads), and/or UV radiation (3, 6, 20, 32, 33). 

SURVIVAL OUTSIDE HOST: The virus can survive in liquid or dried material for a number of days (23). Infectivity is found to be stable at room temperature or at 4Â°C for several days, and indefinitely stable at -70Â°C (6, 20). Infectivity can be preserved by lyophilisation.


----------



## mnn2501

Not 100% any more


----------



## Lonesomelov

HOST RANGE: Humans, various monkey species, chimpanzees, gorillas, baboons, and duikers (1-3, 15, 16, 18, 21-23). The Ebola virus genome was recently discovered in two species of rodents and one species of shrew living in forest border areas, raising the possibility that these animals may be intermediary hosts (24). Other studies of the virus have been done using guinea pig models (25). A survey of small vertebrates captured during the 2001 and 2003 outbreaks in Gabon found evidence of asymptomatic infection in three species of fruit bat (Hypsignathus monstrosus, Epomops franqueti, and Myonycteris torquata) (26). 

INFECTIOUS DOSE: 1 &#8211; 10 aerosolized organisms are sufficient to cause infection in humans (21). 

MODE OF TRANSMISSION: In an outbreak, it is hypothesized that the first patient becomes infected as a result of contact with an infected animal (15). Person-to-person transmission occurs via close personal contact with an infected individual or their body fluids during the late stages of infection or after death (1, 2, 15, 27). Nosocomial infections can occur through contact with infected body fluids due to the reuse of unsterilized syringes, needles, or other medical equipment contaminated with these fluids (1, 2). Humans may be infected by handling sick or dead non-human primates and are also at risk when handling the bodies of deceased humans in preparation for funerals, suggesting possible transmission through aerosol droplets (2, 6, 28). In the laboratory, infection through small-particle aerosols has been demonstrated in primates, and airborne spread among humans is strongly suspected, although it has not yet been conclusively demonstrated (1, 6, 13). The importance of this route of transmission is not clear. Poor hygienic conditions can aid the spread of the virus (6). 

INCUBATION PERIOD: Two to 21 days, more often 4 &#8211; 9 days (1, 13, 14). 

COMMUNICABILITY: Communicable as long as blood, secretions, organs, or semen contain the virus. Ebola virus has been isolated from semen 61 days after the onset of illness, and transmission through semen has occurred 7 weeks after clinical recovery (1, 2). 

SECTION III - DISSEMINATION 

RESERVOIR: The natural reservoir of Ebola is unknown (1, 2). Antibodies to the virus have been found in the serum of domestic guinea pigs, with no relation to human transmission (29). The virus can be replicated in some bat species native to the area where the virus is found, thus certain bat species may prove to be the natural hosts (26).


----------



## manygoatsnmore

soulsurvivor said:


> Sorry to say but you might want to check the emergency health laws in your state. I'm thinking there may be legislation that provides for the call up of all health personnel in the state during a public health emergency regardless of whether they're retired or not. In a google search type in Model Emergency Health Power Act + "your state".


Washington state is one of the states that voted down the Model Emergency Health Powers Act. I may or may not choose to help, but I do believe it should be the choice of every individual, not a government mandate. On the other hand, my badge from work, which I was allowed to retain, does allow me free passage in the event of an emergency.


----------



## manygoatsnmore

I posted this on the other thread about the deputy now hospitalized in Dallas after being seen at an urgent care clinic in Frisco, TX. I think it has validity in this thread as well:

I'd much rather they be pro-active and isolate this deputy (and 2 others, according to the head of the police guild/union) until they are sure it's NOT Ebola, than to have him out in the community longer and then find out he HAS Ebola. 

It's being reported that the deputy and another deputy entered the apartment at some point after Mr. Duncan was taken to the hospital, without any PPE. They were told that no PPE was needed as the virus could only live a couple hours on surfaces. Another deputy drove the patrol car after the now hospitalized deputy used it, and is now feeling unwell, as is the other deputy who was in the apartment. 

Now, it could be that because these officers are on high alert for any signs of illness, that they are actually experiencing psychosomatic illness, not infection. But I'm not sold on the "virus only lives a couple hours on surfaces" theory. If this is true, why are the bodies so infectious for long after death? Why did hazmat teams eventually go in and sanitize the apartment - DAYS afterward? If the virus dies after a few hours of exposure, why would this be needed?

On the bright side, it's been 11 days and no one else in contact with Mr. Duncan has shown symptoms. Although 21 days is the outside range, it's mostly a guess, and 7-10 days is typical. Hopefully, Dallas has dodged a bullet....but how many more bullets are still flying? :shrug:


----------



## tab

There is a second person in Dallas with possible Ebola, contact with Duncan and has traveled to Africa. I would post a link but do not know how to do so on this Droid.


----------



## manygoatsnmore

tab said:


> There is a second person in Dallas with possible Ebola, contact with Duncan and has traveled to Africa. I would post a link but do not know how to do so on this Droid.


Tab, I think that was the early report of the sick deputy you are referencing. At least that is what I'd heard - that first reports were what you posted, and then new info came out to clarify and correct the early reports.

Preliminary reports are that the first blood test was negative, but that's not proof positive as early false negs are common. It's very likely he doesn't have it, but they will test him further in a few days.


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## chickenista

Dallas was just a warning.

Spain is much more of a threat.
This lady got it by touching her face.
Not picking her nose or licking her fingers, but by simply touching her skin.
And now several doctors and nurses that treated her are being observed.
The ease in which it seems to be going around Spain might be new and a little different from in other areas.

And a British man has died in Macedonia from what appears to be Ebola.
He died badly and messily.
He has never, ever been to Africa.

But Dallas... Dallas appears to be a wake up call to how totally and completely unprepared and screwed we are.


----------



## unregistered41671

Wait till Ebola gets to someplace like India.


----------



## tab

Sadly, India may not be so much different than Detroit or any other poor city. Once clean up people stop working the squalor will spread quickly. 

MGM, that may be it. Right now there are so many reports it is getting confusing. I hate to think what another week will bring.

Spain is scary. Zerohedge had an article stating the first nurse sought out medical treatment more than once and was basically blown off, even after she stated she had treated an ebola patient.

Listened to a brief interview with an epidemiologist, when asked if a person trying to fly with a fever could fool scanners by taking Tylenol or such, his answer was yes. It would temporarily bring down a fever in the early stages of ebola. Soooooo, a known contagious person could skirt the screening. How long before the striking cleaning people at La Guardia are joined?


----------



## manygoatsnmore

Every day seems to bring more reports in more areas of the world. I find myself watching more news reports and reading more on-line, just trying to keep up with the latest news. I'm looking for more info on the man in Macedonia, and I see that the nurse's assistant in Spain is not doing well at all.

It's enough to make me step up my preps even more than normal.


----------



## soulsurvivor

Schools here are out for the week due to Fall Break. How about schools in Dallas? Do they have a vacation coming up? If this continues I fully expect parents will be keeping their children home. If you look at the situation in total what other choice would you have? According to the wiki entry there is 1 suspected case in isolation, 4 in quarantine, and 50 under observation in North America. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ebola_virus_cases_in_the_United_States


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## Shrek

Ebola is like any other blood or fluid born disease. Regardless of what the medical experts and PTB claim as long as mosquitoes are around anybody and everybody is at risk. Plus as any infection it will continually mutate.

With that in mind I put any potential epidemic/pandemic in the same category of an asteroid hitting this rock we call home. 

There is nothing I can do about the asteroid, very little I can do about mosquitoes but I can live my chosen life day to day reading about all of the possible doomsday machines nature throws our way until the day I die.

As I have enjoyed my life to this point, have no desire to extend my adult diaper and dementia years any longer than necessary, when my day to die comes as the Sioux and many races of peoples that came before me believed, "This life has been a good life and Today is a good day to die."

Sure if I saw a Ebola victim leaking out of all orifices I would try to steer upwind around them same as I steer around runny nose children or coughing and hacking adults going around with the flu because they "just cant spare the sick days".


I see no value in being overly concerned about things realistically beyond my realm of control and limited influence so I just plan to continue living my life as I have through all the other epidemic risks , political risks and financial risks I read of in my morning paper as I drink my coffee and set out upon my day until that good day to die arrives for me. 

As all who passed before me , I am sure some will live on beyond me to enjoy their days in their chosen lifestyle day. Of course if they don't I won't have anymore advice to offer as I will be one of the ones already passed.


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## manygoatsnmore

Shrek, evidently, the mosquito inactivates the virus when it bites an infected host, something to do with the actions of the blood thinner it injects when it drinks the host's blood. However, mammals other than humans seem to be able to spread Ebola while not exhibiting the disease...think Typhoid Mary. They are carriers. That's why the dog was put down in Spain. However, I think there is still much to learn about how it spreads.

One of the confusing aspects is how the words are being used...contact vs airborne vs droplet. In the medical field contact means you actually touch the virus, be it on a surface or a person, while droplet refers to the spread of infection via sneezing or coughing, usually within 3-5 feet (slightly more for a violent sneeze). Airborne is usually reserved for chicken pox, small pox, measles and TB, where the droplets are so small and aerosolized that they will float in the air for extended periods of time. In the news, they seem to be using droplet as contact and droplet as airborne.


----------



## manygoatsnmore

So now we have the first case contracted in the USA - I wonder if that changes the OP's view?


----------



## chickenista

Well right now we are at a 1:1 ratio.
That's doable.
Africa is at a 1:1.5 to 1:2 ratio and look how that has been going.
If we stay at 1:1 we will be ok.
If we expand.......


----------



## AngieM2

manygoatsnmore said:


> So now we have the first case contracted in the USA - I wonder if that changes the OP's view?



I wonder the same thing.

And I wonder everytime a nay sayer comes here to poo poo what we are discussing in the forum, and the focus of it. And they never seem to be around when their poo pooing proves incorrect.


----------



## kycountry

> But a Purdue professor says officials shouldn't rule out an airborne epidemic.
> 
> "People have compared it and said, well HIV has never gone airborne," said Purdue University Associate Professor of Biological Science David Sanders. "That cannot happen. HIV cannot go airborne for a variety of scientific reasons, Ebola can. It has an inherent capacity to do that, even though once again I must emphasize we have no evidence that that's how it's transmitted currently."
> 
> http://www.fox28.com/story/26767990...-nurse-tests-positive-possible-case-in-boston


This is what bothers me... and he isn't the only one screaming this either...


----------



## chickenista

They really have to stop comparing apples and oranges.
AIDS and Ebola are nothing alike.
The one guy said it referring to it reaching around the globe and now everyone is misusing the reference.
Sigh....


----------



## bourbonred

Hey, all you nurses. How many are going to work with Ebola in your hospital? I've been in the business for 23 years. The only way I'm going in to work is if I say goodbye to my family and stay at the hospital 24/7. I can't see young nurses with young kids continuing to work. And the low paid nursing assistants, emts, yeah sure they'll show up. Modern healthcare would grind to a standstill!


----------



## soulsurvivor

A grand challenge to develop personal protective equipment for Ebola healthcare workers has been published online by the US Dept of State. They're offering immediate funding to any that come up with a solution/prototype to the problem of ineffective protective equipment:

http://ebolagrandchallenge.net


----------



## Calico Katie

soulsurvivor said:


> A grand challenge to develop personal protective equipment for Ebola healthcare workers has been published online by the US Dept of State. They're offering immediate funding to any that come up with a solution/prototype to the problem of ineffective protective equipment: http://ebolagrandchallenge.net


I don't have a good feeling about this. If they're running a public contest in the hope that somebody can find a way to protect the health care workers ... I really don't have a good feeling about this.


----------



## soulsurvivor

chickenista said:


> They really have to stop comparing apples and oranges.
> AIDS and Ebola are nothing alike.
> The one guy said it referring to it reaching around the globe and now everyone is misusing the reference.
> Sigh....


The first I heard the HIV/AIDS comparison to Ebola was from Tom Friedman, Director of the CDC based in Atlanta. He was at a WHO sponsored meeting held at the World Bank Africa on October 8th and he publicly stated that "we have to work now so that this is not the world's next AIDS. This is preventable." And then the twitter feeds went crazy as his quote was repeated so often that it got changed in context. The representative from Switzerland finally tweeted that "globalising panic is not a very good idea #Ebola Response". I think it explains why the media has picked up on this globally.

The global meeting was live streamed and is now over but here's a link to the video replay and the accompanying twitter feed during the meeting:

http://live.worldbank.org/impact-of-ebola-crisis

And hope you all don't mind but I want to include some of the comments made during the meeting on the tweet line by both the meeting participants and guests.

An unnamed guest MD tweeted that there could be immediate support treatment using common drugs such as statins, ACE inhibitors, ARBs. Given in large doses the drugs provide critical support during critical illness of sepsis and organ failure. The drugs are plentiful and readily available and dramatically improve 30-day survival. But this is a drug therapy the WHO/UN/NIH are choosing to ignore.

Sierra Leone president, Ernest Koroma, says: "Sierra Leone needs 1500 beds, 5250 health personnel - 750 doctors, 3000 nurses and 1500 support staff to fight Ebola. Also 200 ambulances and a 1000 motorbikes are needed in Sierra Leone."

Richard Quest, president of the World Bank says: "The future of Africa is at stake unless we stop and contain Ebola." The IMF representative, Laguarde, said that it's good to increase the fiscal deficit when trying to contain the disease. According to Quest the IMF doesn't say that very often.

Yet another guest MD stated: "The only issue is HIV/AIDS does not spread as easily as Ebola. It is very incorrect for people to compare it. This leads to misconception of the virus."

Bruce Aylward, WHO representative, said: "The disease is entrenched in the capitals and 70% of people affected are dying from the disease." He also stated later: "We need to commit to 70% safe burials and 70% treatment in 60 days."

The WHO (World Health Organization) reported 4033 dead out of 8399 registered cases of Ebola in 7 countries. Ebola is spread by contact with body fluids or exposure to contaminated objects or surfaces. Symptoms are fever, diarrhea, vomiting, and in some cases internal and/or external bleeding.


----------



## gibbsgirl

just wondering if others have had the same thought

I read an article in the last several days that was about ebola survivors in Africa assisting healthcare workers in training. they played patients in a practice clinic environment to help the workers interact with them to prepare for the real thing. These survivors were reenacting what they had experienced and seen in real clinics.

One of the things that caught my attention was that they were combative with the workers. It wasn't described as angry hysteria. It was described as not staying put and shoving, grabbing, flailing about. I'm sure there can come a point when an ebola patient is very lethargic and exhausted and unable to move about. but, it makes sense that in the throws of violent vomiting and diarrhea and delirium from the fever and dehydration, patients very likely would be difficult to manage. who could possibly sitor lie still during this unless you were so far gone your body had no energy left.

at any rate, I'm having trouble imagining that any type of protective garments would be the right (unbreachable) type for patients that would behave this way. would they not be torn and shifted out of place?

if you even think about clean up from vomiting, sweat and diarrhea without the combativeness, cleanup seems a daunting task. i don't see a person infected with ebola wanting to spread it. but, i can easily imagine how difficult it would be for them to stay still in a bed and make their messes in neatly disposable containers.

i can definitely understand how important it is for healthcare workers to feel they are being trained and supplied with equipment that will keep them safe. i just wonder if in the case of ebola it may end up being a moot point because of this if there is any type of sizeable demand on our hospitals for care.


----------



## paradox

soulsurvivor said:


> Schools here are out for the week due to Fall Break. How about schools in Dallas? Do they have a vacation coming up? If this continues I fully expect parents will be keeping their children home. If you look at the situation in total what other choice would you have? According to the wiki entry there is 1 suspected case in isolation, 4 in quarantine, and 50 under observation in North America.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ebola_virus_cases_in_the_United_States



We don't get a "fall break". The next school break will be on Thanks giving and then again the week of Christmas and the week after. 

In the meantime, ball games and the state fair are in FULL swing so people are traveling around the metroplex and then heading back out to their town 100 miles away.


----------



## Txsteader

soulsurvivor said:


> The WHO (World Health Organization) reported 4033 dead out of 8399 registered cases of Ebola in 7 countries.


US, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Guinea, Spain.......

What are the other 2 countries????


----------



## surfmonkey

Nigeria and Senegal. In addition, Norway, Germany, Britain, and France have all had people flown back from Africa for care, but so far no deaths in those countries.


----------



## chickenista

Calico Katie said:


> I don't have a good feeling about this. If they're running a public contest in the hope that somebody can find a way to protect the health care workers ... I really don't have a good feeling about this.


 
This is a brilliant idea!
A truly great idea!
Think of how many people have brilliant ideas, but no one ever listens or hears the ideas.
And they run things like this often and get great things as a result.
I predict something good will come of this one too.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Calico Katie said:


> I don't have a good feeling about this. If they're running a public contest in the hope that somebody can find a way to protect the health care workers ... I really don't have a good feeling about this.


It just is another way that shows how the govt talks in conflicting ways out of both sides of their mouths at the same time.

Obviously if someone could truly create/do this, that would be fantastic. But, I don't think a foolproof protection is possible.

On the one hand, they're publicly telling us the necessary measures for effective control are in place, on the other hand they're announcing that they're currently seeking a solution to effective control.

same stuff, different day


----------



## manygoatsnmore

AngieM2 said:


> I wonder the same thing.
> 
> And I wonder everytime a nay sayer comes here to poo poo what we are discussing in the forum, and the focus of it. And they never seem to be around when their poo pooing proves incorrect.


I see he's still posting elsewhere on HT.... Still spouting same thing, mixing apples and oranges when it comes to statistics.


----------



## ||Downhome||

I got too think I'm not that naysayer? 

No this is a tragic thing unfolding... 

Only wish it unfolds on the houses allowing it to happen... 

Unfortunately the upper echelon will be insulated.

The middle will feel the burden.

The bottom could avoid it maybe.

We will see how it plays.

I hope it hits the Jack wagons in the pants!

Right square and true and right! 

Make a nightmare , enjoy it!


----------



## ||Downhome||

manygoatsnmore said:


> I see he's still posting elsewhere on HT.... Still spouting same thing, mixing apples and oranges when it comes to statistics.



Statistic are a losers arsenal.

They can be spun this way and that.

And they are...

Worthless !

I could make up numbers all day!

does not make facts!


----------



## Trainwrek

AngieM2 said:


> I wonder the same thing.
> 
> And I wonder everytime a nay sayer comes here to poo poo what we are discussing in the forum, and the focus of it. And they never seem to be around when their poo pooing proves incorrect.


I'm right here. Nothing has been 'proven incorrect', you have a healthcare worker who worked in direct contact with the bodily fluids of an ebola victim and has come down with the disease. 

This is what passes as "proof" of an epidemic?


----------



## kycountry

Trainwrek said:


> I'm right here. Nothing has been 'proven incorrect', you have a healthcare worker who worked in direct contact with the bodily fluids of an ebola victim and has come down with the disease.
> 
> This is what passes as "proof" of an epidemic?


You may need to blow a little harder on that trumpet, the people in Dallas can't hear you from half way across the country.. bet it would be playing a different tune if it was in your front yard..


----------



## thestartupman

Trainwrek, try again. Now a second nurse is infected. 78 health care workers are being monitored for Ebola. I haven't heard how many the second nurse was in contact with yet. It makes me wonder, how many restaurants these two nurses went to before being quarantined? How many employees handled their plates, and silverware? Hmmmm


----------



## CraftyLady

Trainwreck - Like so many people you're playing the devils advocate. And it's needed. Makes us all think. Good for you. Keep us thinking. 

I hope to goodness you are right. I'll keep my eyes open though and I'll keep prepping.


----------



## KimTN

Well, it seems that the second nurse took a plane ride. I thought that these people were not supposed to go anywhere. The nurses at a major hospital down town have banded together and told the hospital that, if a patient comes walking in with suspected Ebola, the hospital will have to find a place to put all exposed nurses until the test on that patient come back. They are going to refuse to leave the hospital, because they refuse to take this stuff home and expose their families and friends. I think that is a very thoughtful and brave move on their part.


----------



## bourbonred

Akron! Akron!! I tell ya'...does any good come out of Akron? My B-I-L, my D-I-L and now Ebola. And here I thought I was settled in the sticks of Ky far, far away from Dallas. sheesh.


----------



## Calico Katie

I'm not quite ready to blame the nurse for visiting her family. She would not have wanted to get ebola and would have followed all the guidelines she was given. I think she was told she had nothing to worry about and was not told to quarantine herself. Maybe we'll find out differently when more information is available.

I believe at the top of the blame list is the CDC. For all their posturing, they clearly had no idea what to do or how to handle this. They left all of our hospitals unprepared with no training. The minute Duncan was admitted in Dallas, a top notch CDC team should have been dispatched to treat him. They could have done training onsite at the hospital while they were there. 

The hospital was clueless and muddled along trying to determine what measures to take. I think many mistakes were made and the basic idea was to avoid contact with any body fluids but it simply was not enough. Apparently the toxic waste was allowed to stack up and was not disposed of properly. There are so many ways others could have been contaminated from this patient. And all that time, the CDC just kept saying everything was fine and didn't bother to send help.

There will be plenty of blame to spread around but, yeah, CDC is at the top of my list.


----------



## farmrbrown

Trainwrek said:


> I'm right here. Nothing has been 'proven incorrect', you have a healthcare worker who worked in direct contact with the bodily fluids of an ebola victim and has come down with the disease.
> 
> This is what passes as "proof" of an epidemic?



Nope, no epidemic.........yet.

As I said originally, it may be a few months before there is "proof", let's hope we never see any.
But I see a very bad week hasn't changed your attitude either, so I suspect I was right about it taking a few months.

No, a nurse catching it from a patient isn't an epidemic, it's the very start of one.
I heard this NPR interview on the way to work this morning, I linked the transcript for those who would rather read than listen to it.
I don't scare easy but this was scary, tragic and heroic without even trying to be. 
http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?stor---=356045068

It's a doctor who was present at the hospital where the first case of Ebola came in to the hospital in Liberia.
Day one, patient one.
See how Dallas stacks up against this "primitive" country, where they did have some experience and were starting to prepare for it. 
The odds aren't too good when everything goes 100% right. 
How about when just a few mistakes are made?


First link was broken........

http://www.npr.org/blogs/goatsandso...king-lot-a-hospital-sees-its-first-ebola-case


----------



## gibbsgirl

farmrbrown said:


> Nope, no epidemic.........yet.
> 
> As I said originally, it may be a few months before there is "proof", let's hope we never see any.
> But I see a very bad week hasn't changed your attitude either, so I suspect I was right about it taking a few months.
> 
> No, a nurse catching it from a patient isn't an epidemic, it's the very start of one.
> I heard this NPR interview on the way to work this morning, I linked the transcript for those who would rather read than listen to it.
> I don't scare easy but this was scary, tragic and heroic without even trying to be.
> http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?stor---=356045068


my thoughts on the whole is it an epidemic discussions....
can't get caught up in that, it's like can't see the forest for the trees.

there's another saying, kill em all and let God sort em out.
I don't say that because I think anyone should be killed. I say it, because when you're "under fire", you don't wait to take defensive/responsive action until you've confirmed who's shooting, etc.

the bottom line for me is ebola is confirmed here in the US. so, i'm going to take defensive/responsive action now to do what I can to stay vigilant and protect me and mine. the details of how this plays out and exactly when and where it reached epidemic proportions is a debate for historians in the coming decades to study. it's irrelevant to those of us here and now.


----------



## GoldenCityMuse

Epidemics start small, but they soon grow arithmetically. Not Good.


----------



## Elie May

The title of this post just pisses me off every time I read it. The world is about to change in a very bad way.


----------



## Spinner

Another site is putting together a time line of ebola including a EO from 2009 that seems to be custom designed for it. When you see it all laid out, it sure looks like a planned "black swan" event. 

I have to wonder if TPTB have taken a vaccine that keeps them safely immune. They won't stop flights from pandemic areas. Letting people fly in when they've been exposed, and even some who are vomiting and running fever. Does that make sense to anyone? 

The nurse in Dallas that was exposed was told to go ahead and fly. She was planning her wedding so how many did she interact with during the time she had that low fever before she suddenly became critical? She was approved to fly even with the low fever, with CDC knowing she had been nursing Duncan as he was dying of ebola. 

Suddenly we hear nothing about all the things that were so important a week ago. Ebola could be a "never let a good crisis go to waste" invented crisis. Might not be and I'm being cautious, but also keeping my eyes open to everything else. 

Always watch what the left hand is doing when the right hand is in the spot light.


----------



## CraftyLady

Ok Spinner which site and I don't know what TPTB stands for. I vaguely have heard of a black swan event. 
Don't know if I'm buying any of it but, I'd like to know about it all anyway.


----------



## Bubba1358

"The Powers that Be"


----------



## okiemom

Where is the girlfriend and family of Duncan? No word and no idea where they are. If the nurse got it because of a small slip up you know his family HAD to get it living in the apartment with him for days while he was so sick. *crickets*


----------



## Spinner

CraftyLady said:


> Ok Spinner which site and I don't know what TPTB stands for. I vaguely have heard of a black swan event.
> Don't know if I'm buying any of it but, I'd like to know about it all anyway.


A "black swan" has different meaning depending on how it's used. The most common use I've read on prepper boards is that it basically means something happening that shouldn't happen or wouldn't happen without assistance from somebody or something. (an example is that we continue letting people fly in from countries where thousands are dying from ebola.) It probably would not have migrated here on it's own without the help of incoming virus carriers. Therefore, ebola coming to the US could be called a "black swan" event being used to cover other things that are being done behind our backs. 

We need to keep our eyes and ears open to what might be happening while all attention is directed to ebola. 

I just seen a video showing O saying he wants a "SWAT" team sent for every new case of ebola in the US. I'm sure those few words were probably taken out of context, but my point is that people are getting tunnel vision and only seeing ebola. I'm not seeing many posts on any sites about other subjects.

I think others here are members at TB2K also. I get a lot of info over there as well as here.


----------



## Ernie

Spinner said:


> A "black swan" has different meaning depending on how it's used. The most common use I've read on prepper boards is that it basically means something happening that shouldn't happen or wouldn't happen without assistance from somebody or something.


A "black swan" event is, according to Nassim Nicholas Taleb (the author of the black swan theory), by its very nature undirected and unpredictable.

They cause large magnitude changes to history and political components.

They are not caused by governments nor are they something that "shouldn't happen". They simply happen and were not predicted.

They are generally unique events in human history, such as the creation of the internet or the start of World War I.

This is not a black swan event by those definitions, and since the term is specifically described by its author then it can not have different meanings. It has one meaning, and then a whole lot of people use it incorrectly. Like calling a frog a dog.


----------



## Sunbee

okiemom said:


> Where is the girlfriend and family of Duncan? No word and no idea where they are. If the nurse got it because of a small slip up you know his family HAD to get it living in the apartment with him for days while he was so sick. *crickets*


Not necessarily. If you read the history of some of this, you know they've found populations in Africa where a fairly decent size percentage has antibodies to it--meaning they've been exposed--but haven't been actually sick from it. I don't know if those folks were immigrants or USA born, but if they were immigrants, they could've had it in a mild form and be immune. Because apparently that happens, too.


----------



## Ernie

A disease taking down a global superpower is not a black swan event. It's happened before. Multiple times.

If this gets crazy, many of you will be cheering in the streets as Russian or Chinese troops drive by with truckloads of food and vaccines.


----------



## Pearl B

Im starting to think it was unleashed on purpose.


----------



## Ernie

Pearl B said:


> Im starting to think it was unleashed on purpose.


By whom, and why?

I saw three buzzards eating a dead deer on the road this morning. They didn't kill the deer, but they were simply taking advantage of it.


----------



## chickenista

Oh no.. no.
No.
It wasn't.

If it were on purpose, then MAYBE, it would have some pattern, some control to it.
But no.
Nope.. that it came here is no surprise to anyone.

The way it is being handled is the greatest danger now.


----------



## Pearl B

Ernie said:


> By whom, and why?
> 
> I saw three buzzards eating a dead deer on the road this morning. They didn't kill the deer, but they were simply taking advantage of it.


By who would be hard to say. By thinking it was done on purpose I admit goes straight into tin foil territory. If you get into the conspiracy stuff much, there's to many factions or groups. Thats what I mean it would be hard to say.

The why on the other hand is easy. Population control. I've been thinking for awhile,with the shape of the US economy something has to give. I was thinking it would be a war. A epidemic would likely achieve the same ends. Less people.


----------



## Pearl B

What's convincing me is partly the cdc telling the 2nd nurse to go ahead and fly. 
Nobody can be that stupid.
The other thing is watching how this is being handled. We went from, can't happen here to considering sending emergency swat teams to respond to new cases. I read about that on some sight 2-3 weeks ago.

Theres a plan, that was to get it here in the States. I'm sure of that. There doing it too.


----------



## Ernie

Pearl B said:


> By who would be hard to say. By thinking it was done on purpose I admit goes straight into tin foil territory. If you get into the conspiracy stuff much, there's to many factions or groups. Thats what I mean it would be hard to say.
> 
> The why on the other hand is easy. Population control. I've been thinking for awhile,with the shape of the US economy something has to give. I was thinking it would be a war. A epidemic would likely achieve the same ends. Less people.


From a sociological standpoint, they do not achieve the same ends.

A 3GW war rids a nation of surplus male population, generally between the ages of 18-30, thus relieving unemployment pressure. In addition, lagging consumer sales are boosted as factories are retooled and the government creates debt in order to purchase war supplies. Historically, new inventions are created at a rapid rate and many of those lead to quality-of-life improvements for the civilian population after the war is ended. In addition, warfare solidifies the naivete of the citizenry into a patriotic fervor which boosts the support and love of the state.

An epidemic kills without discrimination, creates distress as statists call for their "god" of government to save them and are not given relief, and there is no economic upturn to be associated with the epidemic (except in perhaps the gravedigging sector). In addition, the corporations who generally control governments suffer from massive losses as their customers die or go into hiding and stop spending.

I see no logical, tactical, or strategic reason for a government to sponsor the spread of an epidemic to which there is no differentiation in the victims. (Smallpox blankets to peoples who have no resistance is a different issue.)

I doubt anyone on this forum is more anti-government than I am, but I do not think a government is responsible for the spread.

Here's the unvarnished truth, and I hope it doesn't bruise any feelings too much:

Some of you love government. You HATE the Obama government, but you love government in general. Your first response is always that the government ought to do something about this or that situation. 

So when you see your god fail, your first inclination is to look for a culprit. Your argument is that YOUR side of government would have done much better. You look for nefarious intent where there is really only one root cause for the result set being demonstrated.

And that root cause is that government is a beast filled with lazy and worthless human beings whose sole purpose in life is to live as easy as possible on the stolen labor and wealth of others. 

The CDC has a requested budget for 2015 of $6.6 BILLION dollars. So they can attend training in Hawaii, France, buy expensive toys, give large pensions to their executives, and generally enjoy a level of non-accountability subject to none.

You want change? Abolish government.


----------



## Pearl B

An epidemic is something without a cure. I think there is a cure for this. Those they want will get it. I think they want to get rid of the poorer segment of society. Imagine what it would do for the economy if the bulk of the entitlement class just up and went away. Gone.

I dearly hope I'm wrong and have just spent to much time reading conspiracy stuff.
If not I suspect they will let it appear to get out of hand. Then they will offer the cure to the young and strong. Might have to sell your soul to the devil to get it though.

I totally agree government needs to be abolished.


----------



## Ernie

Well, based on the information that has been released to us ... they do have a cure. It's called Zmap and ... aww shucks .. they just ran out. 

Limited quantities should be coming out soon, to be distributed on an as-needed basis, you know, to essential personnel only. Like CDC employees and their third cousins.


----------



## Calico Katie

okiemom said:


> Where is the girlfriend and family of Duncan? No word and no idea where they are. If the nurse got it because of a small slip up you know his family HAD to get it living in the apartment with him for days while he was so sick. *crickets*


I find this very odd, too. From the time he was sent home from the hospital until he was taken back by ambulance, violently vomiting, he would have been in full contagion. Were all the people in that apartment wearing ppe all that time and taking extreme precautions? Someone was cleaning up after him during that time and giving him some type of care. We're supposed to believe that none of them got sick and yet two nurses who would have been trying to protect themselves to some extent have contracted it?

I remember hearing about another person from the Dallas hospital being screened for ebola. A male nurse tech who had also been around Duncan during those last days in the hospital. When I didn't hear anything else about him and all the focus was on the nurses, I forgot about it. Until I heard a rumor that this man had died. Maybe the man died of something other than ebola? It's likely one of those stories that gets started by someone who wants to pretend they know more than somebody else but is completely untrue - but how would we know?


----------



## Pearl B

Ernie said:


> Well, based on the information that has been released to us ... they do have a cure. It's called Zmap and ... aww shucks .. they just ran out.
> 
> Limited quantities should be coming out soon, to be distributed on an as-needed basis, you know, to essential personnel only. Like CDC employees and their third cousins.


Honestly I think there are 2 different vaccines. One that cures, one that kills. If your one of the unlucky the excuse will be, to far gone for it to have worked.


----------



## CraftyLady

Here's another odd, very odd picture. It's google images. I google Duncan's family and got this. Can't copy paste. Look a little way down the pg. middle under the ambulance. They, Mr. Duncan's family with hymnals, in church - and the under cap. says 6 days ago. That would mean they weren't staying in quarantine, in the safe house, supplied by their church.
OR - the date is wrong. Or 

https://www.google.com/search?q=mr....HCqOR8gGykoDYBw&ved=0CDsQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=909


----------



## Ernie

Pearl B said:


> Honestly I think there are 2 different vaccines. One that cures, one that kills. If your one of the unlucky the excuse will be, to far gone for it to have worked.


What are you basing that theory on?


----------



## CraftyLady

Pearl B said:


> Honestly I think there are 2 different vaccines. One that cures, one that kills. If your one of the unlucky the excuse will be, to far gone for it to have worked.


Have you been watching the TNT progam The Last Ship? That was the finally.


----------



## CraftyLady

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-sty...nephew-rips-dallas-hospital-article-1.1975310

Well, maybe they are just fine. This was an interview done by Duncan's relative yesterday.


----------



## unregistered353870

CraftyLady said:


> Here's another odd, very odd picture. It's google images. I google Duncan's family and got this. Can't copy paste. Look a little way down the pg. middle under the ambulance. They, Mr. Duncan's family with hymnals, in church - and the under cap. says 6 days ago. That would mean they weren't staying in quarantine, in the safe house, supplied by their church.
> OR - the date is wrong. Or


Is this the picture you're talking about? I don't think any of these people are supposed to be in quarantine. They may not even be related.


----------



## CraftyLady

jtbrandt said:


> Is this the picture you're talking about? I don't think any of these people are supposed to be in quarantine.



But the picture is of Mr. Duncan's family or rather the people he was staying with while infected. 
And the date below says 6 days ago. That would mean they were breaking quarantine.
Am I wrong?


----------



## Calico Katie

CraftyLady said:


> .... They, Mr. Duncan's family with hymnals, in church - and the under cap. says 6 days ago. That would mean they weren't staying in quarantine, in the safe house, supplied by their church. ...


I clicked on the picture and then on the "visit page" option to read the story. This was taken at a memorial service and the pastor is quoted as saying that, out of caution, everyone stayed at least three feet away from them. In the picture, it does look like they're not immediately next to anyone. I think they tried and the church was supporting them but I don't believe the CDC's 3 feet rule. For me, quarantine means quarantine. 

Oh, well, if such elitists as Dr. Nancy Snyderman can ignore the rules, thinking they apply to all the little people but not to her special self, how can you expect anyone to abide by the rules? This is exactly how an epidemic starts. So far we've been lucky, the next few weeks should tell the tale.


----------



## Pearl B

Ernie said:


> What are you basing that theory on?


Thats just the only way I can see it working out, if this is planned event. Perhaps the red and blue camps haven't gone away, and they have figured out how to get people to show up willingly. Blue you live, red you don't.


CraftyLady said:


> Have you been watching the TNT progam The Last Ship? That was the finally.


No



CraftyLady said:


> http://www.nydailynews.com/life-sty...nephew-rips-dallas-hospital-article-1.1975310
> 
> Well, maybe they are just fine. This was an interview done by Duncan's relative yesterday.


I really do hope I'm wrong and it is, or will be alright.


----------



## unregistered353870

CraftyLady said:


> But the picture is of Mr. Duncan's family or rather the people he was staying with while infected.
> And the date below says 6 days ago. That would mean they were breaking quarantine.
> Am I wrong?


Searching Google for Duncan's family doesn't mean all the results will actually be his family...or even if they are his family, they aren't necessarily family who had contact with him. According to the caption, one of the people in that picture is named Saymendy Lloyd. The other two aren't identified. It doesn't say they are the people he was staying with, and neither woman looks like Louise Troh, his fiancee who was the only woman living in that apartment.


----------



## Litlbits

Pearl B, yes, the CDC CAN be that stupid in a sense. Whoever the nurse talked to went by the ebola criteria which is fever of 100.5 and the nurse had a temp of 99.5. When you go "by the book" and don't also use common sense along with it, mistakes happen. I know, those of us who really think about things and err on the side of caution can't imagine how anyone could make a mistake in judgement like that but it happens all the time. Take the nurses at Texas Presbyterian that complained that parts of their necks were still exposed while wearing the tyvec suits, gloves, etc.the hospital told them to use tape to close the gaps. WRONG ANSWER! That is why those of us who are vigilant, informed and trying to learn as much as we can every minute will have a better chance of avoiding/surviving this and that includes all the wonderful folks here on HT. We have a lot of common sense, are very overly cautious, and share with each other.


----------



## Spinner

I know that is the definition of black swan THEORY. That's why I specifically stated that I was referring to "the definition of a black swan EVENT *used on many prep forums*" to prevent anyone from making the mistake you just made. 



Ernie said:


> A "black swan" event is, according to Nassim Nicholas Taleb (the author of the black swan theory), by its very nature undirected and unpredictable.
> 
> They cause large magnitude changes to history and political components.
> 
> They are not caused by governments nor are they something that "shouldn't happen". They simply happen and were not predicted.
> 
> They are generally unique events in human history, such as the creation of the internet or the start of World War I.
> 
> This is not a black swan event by those definitions, and since the term is specifically described by its author then it can not have different meanings. It has one meaning, and then a whole lot of people use it incorrectly. Like calling a frog a dog.


----------



## unregistered353870

Calico Katie said:


> I clicked on the picture and then on the "visit page" option to read the story. This was taken at a memorial service and the pastor is quoted as saying that, out of caution, everyone stayed at least three feet away from them. In the picture, it does look like they're not immediately next to anyone. I think they tried and the church was supporting them but I don't believe the CDC's 3 feet rule. For me, quarantine means quarantine.


What the pastor said about staying 3 feet away was about going to the home where they are staying, not at the memorial service. It doesn't say they attended the memorial service. The pastor visiting the home sounds like it could be a quarantine violation, though.


----------



## kycountry

Ernie said:


> By whom, and why?
> 
> I saw three buzzards eating a dead deer on the road this morning. They didn't kill the deer, but they were simply taking advantage of it.


Mr officer, I seen those same three buzzards in a mini van at McDonalds using the free wifi to google "how to run over a deer"!! I seen them beady little eyes, long necks, and bald heads and knew they was up to no good... 

I'll pull the chin strap a little tighter on my tin foil hat and keep my theories to my self but I will say.... three things are needed to override democracy... Gun control, marshal Law, and a reason...


----------



## Spinner

When reading, keep in mind that CDC cleared her to fly... 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ess-shopping-flew-texas-three-days-later.html



> Ebola-stricken nurse Amber Vinson may have been showing symptoms of the deadly virus as early as last Friday - before she flew to Ohio for the weekend and then back to Texas.
> The CDC made the shocking announcement on Thursday, after Miss Vinson was revealed as the second medical worker in Dallas to contract Ebola from the U.S.'s 'patient zero' Thomas Duncan.
> On October 10, Miss Vinson, 29, may have had Ebola symptoms when she flew out of Dallas-Fort Worth Airport on Frontier Airlines Flight 1142 to Cleveland to plan her upcoming wedding, a health official said today.


----------



## Litlbits

Saymendy LLoyd is a friend of Louise Troh the fiancÃ© of Thomas Duncan. She has been the spokesperson for Louise Troh. She was not quarantined and was able to attend the memorial service. If you google Saymendy LLoyd it will bring up information about her.


----------



## farmrbrown

Although I have seen scams and deceptions run by government officials and private companies alike, I also am keenly aware that the population has a disease with a higher fatality rate than Ebola............
Stupidity.
It is on display every single day all around me, so in spite of my desire to believe this is a gov't conspiracy and Obama is an evil genius, I think the facts will eventually show that he is just an incompetent boob who of course surrounded himself with like minded individuals.

That's why I posted the interview from PBS about the 1st case in Liberia.
Last night on the news a nurse from Dallas finally told about the incompetence at her hospital. I say this because the level of protective gear was about half of what the doctor from the PBS interview said he needed way back when this first started.
I have NO training in biologic epidemics and I even knew that they needed face shields, foot protection (booties) and double or triple layers of gloves.
The nurse showed they had nothing below the knees, just safety glasses and one pair of gloves.
THEN you get to disrobing and disposal.
This show is like a 3 Stooges rerun, only not funny.

Stock up on supplies and education and good luck to all.


----------



## GoldenCityMuse

Good article linked on survivalblog.

*Growing concerns over 'in the air' transmission of Ebola*

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-20341423Canadian scientists have shown that the deadliest form of the ebola virus could be transmitted by air between species. In experiments, they demonstrated that the virus was transmitted from pigs to monkeys without any direct contact between them.


----------



## CraftyLady

farmrbrown said:


> Although I have seen scams and deceptions run by government officials and private companies alike, I also am keenly aware that the population has a disease with a higher fatality rate than Ebola............
> Stupidity.
> It is on display every single day all around me, so in spite of my desire to believe this is a gov't conspiracy and Obama is an evil genius, I think the facts will eventually show that he is just an incompetent boob who of course surrounded himself with like minded individuals.
> 
> That's why I posted the interview from PBS about the 1st case in Liberia.
> Last night on the news a nurse from Dallas finally told about the incompetence at her hospital. I say this because the level of protective gear was about half of what the doctor from the PBS interview said he needed way back when this first started.
> I have NO training in biologic epidemics and I even knew that they needed face shields, foot protection (booties) and double or triple layers of gloves.
> The nurse showed they had nothing below the knees, just safety glasses and one pair of gloves.
> THEN you get to disrobing and disposal.
> This show is like a 3 Stooges rerun, only not funny.
> 
> Stock up on supplies and education and good luck to all.


Oh, I so, so agree with you. Incompetence all around. 
Thank you everyone for clarifying Mr. Duncan's family picture. I have great hope that they are all healthy and just waiting out their quarantine. 

Should be repeated. 

Stock up on supplies and education and good luck to all.


----------



## beaglebiz

Ahhhh...blissful ignorance....


----------



## Ziptie

I think the issue people have with this disease Trainwrek is that it is not a big issue now but it could become so in the very near future.

Everyone here is sick with the latest cold going round <not surprising considering one of the kid's classmates puked all over the lunch table while everyone was eating their lunches>:runforhills:but I know a couple days of rest and all should be good. If Ebola got a foot hold here like it has in Africa..well I would be taking care of children wearing trash bags.


----------



## Mrs Katzenchix

Trainwrek said:


> posting against the reason for the forum, deleted post was here


I hear you when you say that you are trying to inject some logic into the discussion and maybe calm some who may be panicking prematurely. But I really feel that the majority of people on this board aren't that way. Yes, it sounds like there are some people here ready to bunker in right now and wait for TEOTWAWKI, but as Ziptie says, for most people, it's not to that point yet but it has the potential to become so in the very near future. 

Now is the time to watch and prepare for the worst possible scenario. Even though US mismanagement of this threat gets more apparent and every day the news about ebola gets more scary, at least in my case, it's not yet time to batten down the hatches. But I think everyone needs to do what they can, as much as they can, to prepare for the possiblity. We are "preppers" after all.

My fear is that government will use the excuse of stopping a public panic in order to conceal what's really happening with ebola. And when I read someone say they are quitting their job, heading to the hills, right NOW and they live nowhere near where ebola has been, it makes me cringe because this is just the type of thing that will cause the government to start censoring news in order to stop the panic. And when that happens, we will have no idea how bad ebola really is until it is right on our doorstep. That's just my 2 cents.


----------



## sidepasser

Here is a good write up from a person who is trained in hazmat and describes the PPE that is required, donning and doffing of that equipment and how hard it is to do it right. 

_I've worked in health care for a few years now. One of the first things I took advantage of was training to become FEMA-certified for hazmat ops in a hospital setting. My rationale for this was that, in my home state of Maine, natural disasters are almost a given. We're also, though you may not know it, a state that has many major ports that receive hazardous liquids from ships and transport them inland. In the back of my mind, of course, I was aware that any hospital in the world could potentially find itself at the epicenter of a scene from The Hot Zone. That was several years ago. Today I'm thinking, by God, I might actually have to use this training. Mostly, though, I'm aware of just that -- that I did receive training. Lots of it. Because you can't just expect any nurse or any doctor or any health care worker or layperson to understand the deconning procedures by way of some kind of pamphlet or 10-minute training video. Not only is it mentally rigorous, but it's physically exhausting. 

_Read the rest at the link below, it is pretty informative article.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/abby-...ospi_b_5998486.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592


----------



## Elie May

Mrs Katzenchix said:


> My fear is that government will use the excuse of stopping a public panic in order to conceal what's really happening with ebola. And when I read someone say they are quitting their job, heading to the hills, right NOW and they live nowhere near where ebola has been, it makes me cringe because this is just the type of thing that will cause the government to start censoring news in order to stop the panic. And when that happens, we will have no idea how bad ebola really is until it is right on our doorstep. That's just my 2 cents.


I was just telling my husband that they would start doing this to curb the anxiety.....

Just like the relatives on Duncan..... ZIPPO about them. Are they dead or alive!


----------



## terri9630

Becka03 said:


> I deleted it as the original is deleted


My husband says he sounds like a gov guy trying to "calm things down" with misleading info. Like saying the flu is more deadly when the numbers actually show less than 1% death rate.


----------



## ||Downhome||

terri9630 said:


> My husband says he sounds like a gov guy trying to "calm things down" with misleading info. Like saying the flu is more deadly when the numbers actually show less than 1% death rate.



That was my point about statistics, More people are infected with the flu every year, there fore the death rate should be high (total numbers)

But if I present 100,000 people die every year from the flu but only 10,000 have died from ebola is misleading.

To present it as only 1% of people die from the flu but 70% from ebola paints a different picture.

Many time the numbers are made up, I say made up because often ball parked. Many sources are not included and so on.


----------



## Txsteader

Mrs Katzenchix said:


> Now is the time to watch and prepare for the worst possible scenario.


That bears repeating. 

And just because people are watching and preparing doesn't mean they're necessarily freaking out. But we've seen enough incidents where people wait until the emergency is in full swing *coughKatrinacough* and then freak out because there's no help available. 

This board is called 'Survival & Emergency Preparedness' for a reason.


----------



## Becka03

Txsteader said:


> That bears repeating.
> 
> And just because people are watching and preparing doesn't mean they're necessarily freaking out. But we've seen enough incidents where people wait until the emergency is in full swing *coughKatrinacough* and then freak out because there's no help available.
> 
> This board is called 'Survival & Emergency Preparedness' for a reason.


exactly!!!!
Thank you for stating this!


----------



## Becka03

I think outright running in the streets panic is not the effect we are trying to create to be honest- but more get water and your stuff in order have the gas tanks full type mild panic....


----------



## Txsteader

IMO, what's great about coming here is that this board is sort of a correlation of all the news out there on the subject. I can find more info here than I can on the web, as people post local news that the rest of us may not see. 

It's a place for us to discuss our thoughts. fears. ideas and questions. Personally, that's reassuring to me.......it actually helps me to NOT freak out. I'll freak out when I see y'all freaking out. :gaptooth:


----------



## kycountry

Txsteader said:


> IMO, what's great about coming here is that this board is sort of a correlation of all the news out there on the subject. I can find more info here than I can on the web, as people post local news that the rest of us may not see.
> 
> It's a place for us to discuss our thoughts. fears. ideas and questions. Personally, that's reassuring to me.......it actually helps me to NOT freak out. I'll freak out when I see y'all freaking out. :gaptooth:


 we must be doing something right.. if you google "ebola survival forum" Homesteading today's survival forum ranks #2 :rock:


----------



## Vosey

sidepasser said:


> Here is a good write up from a person who is trained in hazmat and describes the PPE that is required, donning and doffing of that equipment and how hard it is to do it right.
> 
> _I've worked in health care for a few years now. One of the first things I took advantage of was training to become FEMA-certified for hazmat ops in a hospital setting. My rationale for this was that, in my home state of Maine, natural disasters are almost a given. We're also, though you may not know it, a state that has many major ports that receive hazardous liquids from ships and transport them inland. In the back of my mind, of course, I was aware that any hospital in the world could potentially find itself at the epicenter of a scene from The Hot Zone. That was several years ago. Today I'm thinking, by God, I might actually have to use this training. Mostly, though, I'm aware of just that -- that I did receive training. Lots of it. Because you can't just expect any nurse or any doctor or any health care worker or layperson to understand the deconning procedures by way of some kind of pamphlet or 10-minute training video. Not only is it mentally rigorous, but it's physically exhausting.
> 
> _Read the rest at the link below, it is pretty informative article.
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/abby-...ospi_b_5998486.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592


Just wanted to 2nd that this is a great article. Part of mental preparedness if you were treating at home.


----------



## KentuckyDreamer

The last six posts were a breath of fresh air. My nine year old has waited two years to be old enough to attend a glass blowing class....we are going today. While I did cancel our gym membership, homeschooling activities are still on at this point. I am his mother, I keep him safe as best I can.

The other day in COSTCO I kept him a good distance from a very sick child...not because I thought the toddler had Ebola, but because she had something. I would feel the same way about measles, lice, or the flu.


----------



## Jim-mi

I value this board because I do not have cable type TV . . . and it is a proven fact that the "old established TV network channels" are so biased and sanitized that the "truth" is a secondary issue as to what the goobermint wants Joe Public to know.

No I am not a news junkie like some on here (bless them) so getting all the info about a potential monster is more than great here on the S board.

For instance The plane to Cleveland . . . . Many many peoples fly Cleveland to Detroit . . just minutes apart . . .And many Detroit area peoples come north to my area to play .. . .They eat in area restaurants . .local folk wait the tables . . .I sit beside those folks at a football game..........
So to me the possibility of it spreading up here to my beautiful area certainly exists.

So garnering lots of info here on HT is invaluable........

my .03 cents.......


----------



## Spinner

GoldenCityMuse said:


> Canadian scientists have shown that the deadliest form of the ebola virus could be transmitted by air between species. In experiments, they demonstrated that the virus was transmitted from pigs to monkeys without any direct contact between them.


I read something about that... they were trying to claim the virus could have been spread when cages were cleaned, but the cage cleaning did not fit the timeline. I guess they'll grasp at any straw to try to deny that it could be or become airborne.


----------



## manygoatsnmore

kycountry said:


> we must be doing something right.. if you google "ebola survival forum" Homesteading today's survival forum ranks #2 :rock:


Who's #1? We need to Google a few more times to take over that slot, I guess, lol.


----------



## Forcast

http://www.hempforfuture.com/2014/10/17/doctors-suggest-that-marijuana-can-protect-you-from-ebola/


----------



## manygoatsnmore

I'm definitely not panicking...just watching carefully and continuing to increase our pantry staples and other prep supplies a little more urgently than I might do otherwise. I'm actually thankful to have a good reason to get my tuchus in gear, although I do NOT wish anyone to contract this deadly disease. Still hoping and praying that a vaccine and more effective treatments are found soon and that this will turn out to just be a dry run for some future event. You know the saying, hope for the best, but plan for the worst.


----------



## cnichols

Well, with any luck this will become a "non-issue" here in the states. But anytime anyone in the government says they have things under control, I start to become concerned.

That being said, I'm moving forward with my winter rabbit colony, I'm NOT going to butcher those roosters I've been saying for a year now that I need to butcher and I'll be getting more seeds soon to replace those I used this past year (instead of waiting until spring).

There are any number of things that need done here at home to begin with, so I can't really say that this situation is going to change any of that with the exception (like manygoatsnmore) we will probably "amp things up" a bit. 

We also will not become too concerned unless we find out that it's spreading. The way things "appear" to be right now, I'm not too worried.


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## Calico Katie

Forcast said:


> http://www.hempforfuture.com/2014/10/17/doctors-suggest-that-marijuana-can-protect-you-from-ebola/


Interesting story. So, I guess if the ebola epidemic does go global, the only thing left will be the potheads and the cockroaches. :huh:


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## thesedays

Trainwrek said:


> Yup. You are not reading up enough. 90% survival in the more developed parts of Africa, 25% in the less developed parts. They AVERAGE a 50% survival rate. The devil is in the details
> 
> Most of us have absolutely no idea the conditions that exist in places like Liberia. Its like living in an open sewer. They have no real hospital care. Because we have no concept of what goes on there we cannot compare what goes on there to what goes on in any developed society. Just the very basic sanitary conditions and the use of a fluid IV can change the outcome from almost certain death to almost certain recovery.
> 
> In sanitary conditions, with just very basic medical care the Ebola virus is little more than a bad flu.


True, and not true. Most people with the flu don't have to have their diapers changed because of the massive diarrhea, bloody or not; Dr. Brantly's said THIS was the absolute worst thing about it for him. He was interviewed a few days ago; he looks healthy and has gained some weight, and says he's not back to baseline but he feels better every day. Nancy Writebol was interviewed earlier today by phone on CNN, and she pretty much said the same thing. IDK if either of them ever plan to go back to Africa or any other foreign country.

Maybe it's been mentioned in this thread, but Dr. Sacra was admitted to a hospital in his hometown a couple weeks ago for what turned out to be a minor illness. They just didn't want to take any chances.


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## Forerunner

.......


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## Jim-mi

Those do have quite a remarkable resemblance too all of the num-nuts appointees .


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## elkhound

hey forerunner....

* Revelation 18:4King James Version (KJV)*

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.


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## Forerunner

People hate it when I quote that verse, and mean it, Elk.

:sob:


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## gibbsgirl

Elie May said:


> The title of this post just pisses me off every time I read it. The world is about to change in a very bad way.


that's ok. the misquoting of Shakespeare is so fitting...


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## Eagle-eye

I'm with Trainwrek. Ebola doesn't warrant the reaction that some are giving it. My focus is better spent on other potential issues.


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## Forerunner

I see it as a test case with great potential.

As Chickenista and others have observed, it will likely subject the direction of the trend to the lowest common intelligence denominator.

There is, above all things, an agenda.


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## chickenista

Well.. this coming week is the 'tell all' week, I think.

If there are no cases in Ohio as a result of the traveling nurse, then it's a happy thing.

Then all we have to do is see if anyone else flies in with it
and watch Europe to see if they get any infections.

We desperately need to get a hold of it in Africa or it will remain a threat for a long time coming.
If it reaches the heights that WHO thinks it will, then we will be here again.
1.4 million is a lot of cases.


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## okiemom

The news is better that his family did not get sick but, I would question if 1 in 4 odds are good. This is not the flu and to think so is nuts.


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## Becka03

Calico Katie said:


> Interesting story. So, I guess if the ebola epidemic does go global, the only thing left will be the potheads and the cockroaches. :huh:


okay the cykoid (spelling- I already closed the article) storm they are talking about- I am wondering if this is like the topic we had a yr or so ago about how taking elderberry may not be the best thing as this can make this worse?


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## Explorer

Becka03 said:


> okay the cykoid (spelling- I already closed the article) storm they are talking about- I am wondering if this is like the topic we had a yr or so ago about how taking elderberry may not be the best thing as this can make this worse?


Yes, it is the same.


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## Becka03

Explorer said:


> Yes, it is the same.


So my elderberry would be a useless help then?


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## chickenista

http://www.npr.org/blogs/goatsandsoda/2014/08/26/342451672/how-ebola-kills-you-its-not-the-virus

Here is a great explanation of what Ebola does..


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## unregistered353870

Seems to me...and this opinion is worth half what you're paying for it...boosting the immune system would be good to help prevent catching ebola, but once you have it you don't want to boost the immune system anymore...might even want to suppress it.


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## kycountry

Anyone got the scoop on whats going on in Connecticut??

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/23/n...being-watched-for-symptoms-of-ebola.html?_r=0


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## Explorer

Becka03 said:


> So my elderberry would be a useless help then?


No, I'm just saying it is "like the topic we had a yr or so ago". I don't think it has been studied enough, if any studies, with Ebola. Unless one is a experienced herbalist caution is always the best side of experimenting with things.


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## Forerunner

Tell that to the FDA and the pharmaceuticals.....

I'll take my chances with the natural world.


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## juju_mommy

I'm a huge fan of elderberry syrup. We always keep several bottles in stock at home and use it often. It's wonderful. However, from what I'm reading about the ebola (and, more specifically, about the cytokine storm) elderberry would NOT be a good choice once things get further along. Perhaps before it could be used to help boost immunity. But not once you have ebola. 

It sounds like the best people can do is do their best to encourage hydration and there is some talk that vitamin c might would help as well since it's known to strengthen blood vessels (though it's preferable to give it intravenously and that's not really an option for most people).


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