# Misconception of "Aggressive" Terms



## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

I really debated whether or not to post this because I know I will get chewed up by many. I think though that just as there is a misconception and stereotype about many breeds of dogs that there is a misconception and stereotype about some terms that are used to describe dogs actions. In reading the thread "Let's talk about this" I see that some are truly upset by terms that are associated with aggressive, uncontrollable dogs. So I thought I would explain how those terms apply in a general farm guard situation.

I have a Pyr and she is wonderful for what she does, but what she doesn't do is keep nasty predators off my property for good. I have a neighbor that changes aggressive dogs like most people change underwear. I have had their dogs as a direct threat to me or my children. I have also had two legged threats show up and surprise me in my barn, placing themselves between me (in the barn) and my children (in the house). Enter my Rhodesian Ridgeback. What he does have is "drive", "game" and from what I have seen some amount of "bite strength". Drive and game simply mean courage and lack of fear of their own safety. They do their job no matter the risk to themselves.

LGDs are the same but it is specified to their charges. For my pyr once the threat is no longer a threat to her charges then they are ignored. If a stray dog gets far enough away in my pasture then they are mainly ignored unless they move closer. For my Ridgeback if they are on property they are a threat (4 legged predators) to be removed. I once had a neighbor's Rottweiler pushed back out of the pasture 3 times in a row by my pyr, only to keep returning. Once the Ridgeback was out, he engaged the rott and the rott didn't return ever.

Game, drive and bite force are all terms used in protection work or sports like Schutzhund. It is not out of control general aggression to everything and anything. When used in the context of personal guard or property protection they are very important terms. A dog that does not have game will not help remove those wild hogs that are destroying your property. A dog without drive won't hold a car full of men when they are between you and your children. You never know what kind of situation might arise when you need that bite force to stop a predator 2 legged or 4 legged. I live in a very rural county with a lot of crime. My husband is a LEO and all the criminals in the county know it. We have had numerous threats against our family and many midnight prowlers of the two legged kind. I need a dog that I can count on to turn on and turn off if the need arises and it has come close several times. My dogs are my first line of defense and my protection dog is invaluable in the work that he does. 

Just as I know that my pyr keeps my livestock safe at night, my protection dog keeps me and my children safe at all times. While all my neighbors were broken into by a gang of thieves my house and property was never touched. I had neighbors lose tractors, one neighbor walked in her bedroom to find a robber climbing through her bedroom window, and another intruder try to force their way into the home of another neighbor through her at the door. She had a LGD out in the yard around the house. They walked right past the dog. The other neighbors had general "pets". If someone doesn't know my dog, they don't get out of their car because he sits by the door of their car until I release him. If he knows them and they are invited then he is as lovable as they get. So terms like "game", "high drive" and such do have a place for a farm guard dog. And some of us have a strong need for such a dog. My guard dog is as necessary as my 9 mm. I wouldn't be without either one. Blessings, Kat


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Considering what Rhodesian Ridgebacks were bred for, I'd say you picked the right dog.
The only thing I would add is intelligence, on the part of the owner and the dog, and training. The ability of the dog to take the right commands at the right time is key.
Like you, I consider a good guard dog a tool, and like any tool, if used properly, can make quick work of any task.


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

Thank you farmrbrown for pointing out the training. Good solid training and response to commands are a must. The instinct must be there but training refines and teaches control of the instinct. The training and control is what makes a good guard dog rather than an out of control aggressive liability issue. The dog must be able to turn on and turn off. We spent a lot of time training our Ridgeback and we are currently training his replacement. A well trained guard dog to me is as useful on a farm as a well trained LGD or herding breed. Each has a purpose and a job, there simply is no one size fits all in every situation.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

The problem comes when people use those terms to describe dog vs dog, which is unfortunately about the only time the words ARE used. In the context of your post, I fully understand what you mean. The other hugely important difference you emphasized is that your Rhodie is a GUARD animal; you aren't trying to use him as a "guardian." You also didn't come and ask how to TURN him into a guardian; you understand the difference. Nor would you ever get a Rhodie mix and wonder why he isn't doing what you need him to do as far as guarding critters. You are a responsible GUARD animal owner. You drew that line.

Problems come when folks get an aggressive dog and expect him to do things he wasn't meant to do...I have a GSD that I can NEVER trust around my goats...her "prey drive" is too high. Even my most beloved Duke, a well-balanced GSD, could hardly control himself when they ran from him. I also have another aggressive breed, although no one told him he was supposed to be aggressive, a chow. I was stunned the day my first chow herded cows on an escape jaunt, and found out that it was one of the things his breed was used for many MANY moons ago. I wouldn't expect today's chow to do that; CJ was an exception, a throwback perhaps. It is not something the breed does today, and those genes are weak in most modern chows. I could no sooner ask how to turn him into a LGD then ask how my goldfish could be one; it is not in his blood, it is not in his nature, it is not in his breeding. It would be an awful situation waiting to happen every day. His "drive" cannot be turned off by me...if he got into a situation, he would fight to the end. All things considered, neither of my dogs have a place here...not really as a guard, nor as a guardian. They stay up in the pampered pets category. 

I think the problems come with the terms being associated with fighting dogs, something *I* have never and will never approve. I am not sure how, or IF, we can ever disassociate the terms from that.

I appreciate your post; it explains how the terms can be used in "real" life. I am just not sure, however, we can ever take a step back from their connotations.

I am just going to take each post on a case by case, context by context way. 
If any one feels someone crosses a line, PLEASE contact me so I can check it out. I might miss things; it would NOT be intentional.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Your terms are off or just plain wrong.
Game is refusal to quit the fight once it starts. A terrier down a hole refusing to quit even though its running out of air and suffocating is game. Your dog that won't chase down that rott but WILL fight to the death once that rott attacks him is a little game.
General toughness and a willingness to engage is grit, which is common in cur dogs like the ridgeback, catahoula & black mouth.
Drive just describes the intensity of a dogs desire to do a certain task. Prey drive it wants to hunt. Ball drive it wants to play. High or low just describes the intensity.
Tackling the rott is an aggressive response coming from one or more of three areas in their personality, prey drive (your dog views it as something to be hunted down), territorial defense (you're a competing predator in my territory, leave or I'll kill you) or social status defense (who is more alpha).


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Many times people don't learn very much about something they dislike.
They have their own opinioins about the subject and refuse to learn they may be wrong. 
Words are words. They describe something. When people refuse to listen and possibly learn when another person uses a word they don't like or understand they will never learn.
People bred dogs for special jobs. It takes many lifetimes to change a breed of dogs to another breed. This doesn't happen unless there is a demand for the breed.
Sometimes people will not like a breed and don't even want to hear anything about the breed. That is their choice. One thing that should not be their choice is to ban words associated with the breed they hate.
I don't like little lap dogs. Can't stand to be around the yapping things. That does not mean I want everyone to feel the same way and sure doesn't mean I want to control their language when they even mention something related to them.
When there is a thread about them I pass it by because I have no interest in them.
Why can't everyone do the same thing? If you don't like or have any interest in a thread simply don't read it.


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

Thanks Pops2 for clarifying the terms. you did a much better job than I did about it.


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

Yep great post, people have no understanding of what terms mean and are most times to ignorant to educate themselves. They regurgitate media produced information in a typical knee jerk fashion.
PS: my little sis & clan live outside Sylacaga, 1 of my dogs works/lives there


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

I haven't been reading the board lately--did someone actually take issue with the terms "prey drive", "gameness", and whatnot? 

If so, that's pretty silly. These terms are merely descriptions of canine behavior and motivation. Almost all dogs have some degree of "prey drive"; any dog that chases a ball is showing it. If you don't like to hear terminology regarding animal behavior, and don't want to learn about it, that's fine. But don't get upset and judgemental if others DO want discuss and learn animal behavior and use correct terminology while doing so!


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## peteyfoozer (Nov 23, 2012)

It's nice that you have both a livestock guardian and a people guard, but not all LGDs will allow entry from a stranger. In fact, my Maremmas, who guard sheep, chickens, calves and goats, refused to allow our neighbor who comes over and helps milk my cow to enter the house when I wasn't home. They know him well, but as I had never had him inside, they made the determination that he wasn't going there on their watch. He said he was pretty scared, so he left and his wife had to carry the heavy bucket in on her own. She had been inside before.

The same dogs take immediate charge of any children, whether they know them or not. They actually clear a path for them making sure no cows, dogs or others are close enough to bother them. They have amazing discretion.

On the flip side, I had a doberman pinscher that sat in the garage and let someone take my car while we were out! 
I suppose it depends on the individual. I feel plenty safe with my Maremmas, although I won't be without a gun either. That would be naive, in my opinion.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I can appreciate the specific definitions of terms in any field of study. They simply do not mean that much to me because there are too many people using terms in ways some would say is wrong. Thus, what I do is ask the person if what I'm hearing is actually what they are saying. In other words, are we defining the term the same way?

As long as my dog(s) do what I expect them to do, respect me as alpha and "think" for themselves when I'm not around, I really don't care if they are driving, biting or gaming. (Of course, expecting a dog to do what it instinctively was not bred to do is always risky; and expecting a dog to NOT do what it instinctively was bred to do is plain stupid.)

As for as the misconception of "aggressive", I suspect that comes into conflict when those xxx (bad words) xxx people are fighting their dogs! They want an aggressive dog that indeed has game, drive and bite. For those of us who respect dogs too much to train them to abuse each others, the term aggressive would more likely mean "being able to take care of" whatever is trying to harm our animals or our property or our families....a BIG difference in motive yet not such a big difference in actions. To equate the aggressive fighting dog with the aggressive guardian/guard dog is understandable; however, it is really not just!


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

motdaugrnds said:


> I can appreciate the specific definitions of terms in any field of study. They simply do not mean that much to me because there are too many people using terms in ways some would say is wrong. Thus, what I do is ask the person if what I'm hearing is actually what they are saying. In other words, are we defining the term the same way?
> 
> As long as my dog(s) do what I expect them to do, respect me as alpha and "think" for themselves when I'm not around, I really don't care if they are driving, biting or gaming. (Of course, expecting a dog to do what instinctively was not bred to do is always risky; and expecting a dog to NOT do what it instinctively was bred to do is plain stupid.)
> 
> As for as the misconception of "aggressive", I suspect that comes into conflict when those xxx (bad words) xxx people are fighting their dogs! They want an aggressive dog that indeed has game, drive and bite. For those of us who respect dogs too much to train them to abuse each others, the term aggressive would more likely mean "being able to take care of" whatever is trying to harm our animals or our property or our families....a BIG difference in motive yet not such a big difference in actions. To equate the aggressive fighting dog with the aggressive guardian/guard dog is understandable; however, it is really not just!


What you seem to refuse to accept is that in most of the world LGDs are EXPECTED to protect against humans because they are a primary threat. And you also seem to have in your mind that as fighting dogs they are handled like pit bulldogs where that is all they are trained and used for. The reality is the same dog that is matched or bear baited on Friday morning before going to mosque is the head dog in the pack that protects the flocks the rest of the week.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Ummm Pops2, I didn't actually say any of what you "seem" to think I am nor am I refusing to accept the expectations of LGDs in other world countries; however, thank you for letting me know what you took from my post.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

motdaugrnds said:


> Ummm Pops2, I didn't actually say any of what you "seem" to think I am nor am I refusing to accept the expectations of LGDs in other world countries; however, thank you for letting me know what you took from my post.


No you didn't directly state it in this thread but you have in others & made a backhanded reference in this one.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Thank you for telling me.


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## Whisperwindkat (May 28, 2009)

peteyfoozer said:


> It's nice that you have both a livestock guardian and a people guard, but not all LGDs will allow entry from a stranger. In fact, my Maremmas, who guard sheep, chickens, calves and goats, refused to allow our neighbor who comes over and helps milk my cow to enter the house when I wasn't home. They know him well, but as I had never had him inside, they made the determination that he wasn't going there on their watch. He said he was pretty scared, so he left and his wife had to carry the heavy bucket in on her own. She had been inside before.
> 
> The same dogs take immediate charge of any children, whether they know them or not. They actually clear a path for them making sure no cows, dogs or others are close enough to bother them. They have amazing discretion.
> 
> ...


 Some LGD's are harder dogs than others. I have a Pyr and they are a very soft guardian breed. I know for a fact that she has allowed people on several occasions when I am not home in the barns and in the fields with the livestock. Stray dogs/coyotes are run off, never engaged and stopped from returning. That is why I have my ridgeback and now another property guard in training. And like you said, just because a dog is a typically thought of guard breed (Doberman, Rottweiler, GSD, etc.) doesn't mean that they will. It is up to the person to assess their needs and look for the dog with the right temperament. Which is where the terms and understanding of them come into play. That is all I was trying to say. Blessings, Kat


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