# Disc vs. tiller



## NTRotty (Mar 11, 2009)

I need to plant about 1 acre area of wildflowers and clover for my bees. I am considering a disc and drag harrow vs. reverse tine tiller to get the ground ready to sow the seed this fall. Pasture ground that has never been broken, compact Kubota 2320 to do the work. 

ANy suggestions to the BEST way, will have to purchase either piece of equipment, I know tiller will be a bit more expensive.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

I prefer a disc, especially for unplowed ground.

Mow it as close as you can, or spray with Roundup a week or two before using the disc and it will do better


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

In my opinion, you will be ahead with the tiller. A lightweight
disc may have trouble penetrating pasture ground. (I don't know where you are or the type of soils you have), but, a tiller should prepare a better seedbed.


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

Rereading this; I assumed you meant a 3 pt mounted tiller. Either way , I agree with Bearfootfarm , spray with roundup to knock down any vegetation present.


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## jamala (May 4, 2007)

We use a disc, if we are breaking pasture that has not been broken in a while my dad adds several long heavy pieces of pipe to weight down the disc.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I have to agree with the roundup. I planted wildflowers in a small section in the spring and it is now just a weed patch. Most of the weeds are annual grasses. They smothered any wildflowers that would have grown if I had taken the time to do it right.


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## beewench (Mar 5, 2010)

I just have to add here, please DO NOT spray Round Up where you are going to plant clover for bees!! Glysophate pesticides are one of the suspects on colony collapse disorder...


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

beewench said:


> I just have to add here, please DO NOT spray Round Up where you are going to plant clover for bees!! Glysophate pesticides are one of the suspects on colony collapse disorder...


There are no "glysophate pesticides". Roundup is an herbicide, has no affect on insects, and not shown to be of any danger to bees.

Martin


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Here is a pretty good site describing various clovers and planting methods. Although it is geared for deer food plots, which would involve clipping it while in early blossom stages to keep it tender for deer grazing, it may be of some use to you for getting clover established for bees. You should know, however, the life of a clover plot is generally three to five years before weed takeover--at which time you will need to replant, or relocate to new ground while utilizing the Nitrogen for crop or garden use. Some clovers, notably red clover is biannial. Keeping clovers weed free involves a fairly extensive use of chemicals, some of which may require an applicator's license.

As for equipment, it would be a toss-up, after a killdown with glysophate, but in any case you will need a cultipacker to press the clover seeds in the soil for good germination--especially on a full acre--to avoid bare, weedy spots next year.

I use Ladino clover as a rotational cover crop for gardening--but not nearly an acre at a time, so I generally don't use chemicals--just about three clippings after full blossom time each summer after the first year's nursing growth to keep down weeds and grasses. Works pretty well, but I don't think bees could survive on just clover alone. I think you might want to plan other areas with wildflowers and flowering weeds or sunflowers, etc, etc for steady bee food and pollen.

http://www.outreachoutdoors.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=475&start=0

geo


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

I would either use a plow then disc or use the tiller.
You need a fine seedbed and good seed to soil contact.


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## Murray in ME (May 10, 2002)

Paquebot said:


> There are no "glysophate pesticides".


While the word pesticide is most often used when referring to insecticides, beewench is not wrong in reffering to an herbicide as a pesticide. The word pesticide refers to a bunch of different "cides". Herbicides, insecticides and fungicides are all pesticides. As are other products, such as defoliants and dessicants.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Murray in ME said:


> While the word pesticide is most often used when referring to insecticides, beewench is not wrong in reffering to an herbicide as a pesticide. The word pesticide refers to a bunch of different "cides". Herbicides, insecticides and fungicides are all pesticides. As are other products, such as defoliants and dessicants.


Nevertheless it had absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the topic of this thread.

Martin


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## Murray in ME (May 10, 2002)

Paquebot said:


> Nevertheless it had absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the topic of this thread.
> 
> Martin


That is very true. Neither did your post directed at beewench. I was simply responding to your telling beewench "there are no "glyphosate pesticides"". That is all. It was not meant as an attack in any form on you. I simply pointed out an error.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Murray in ME said:


> That is very true. Neither did your post directed at beewench. I was simply responding to your telling beewench "there are no "glyphosate pesticides"". That is all. It was not meant as an attack in any form on you. I simply pointed out an error.


And, just as I pointed out to her that there are no "glysophate pesticides". It is your error in claiming that I stated no "glyphosate pesticides"! Use of proper spelling can be equally as important as your calling me on the definition of a word.

Martin


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## Murray in ME (May 10, 2002)

Paquebot said:


> And, just as I pointed out to her that there are no "glysophate pesticides". It is your error in claiming that I stated no "glyphosate pesticides"! Use of proper spelling can be equally as important as your calling me on the definition of a word.
> 
> Martin


You're right. I missed her spelling error. My mistake. 

I agree that the proper spelling of a word can be as important as the definition. I don't think so in this case since it is obvious in this case what beewench meant. That's just my opinion though.

At any rate, the mistake is mine for missing that your comment was about spelling. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Murray in ME said:


> You're right. I missed her spelling error. My mistake.
> 
> I agree that the proper spelling of a word can be as important as the definition. I don't think so in this case since it is obvious in this case what beewench meant. That's just my opinion though.
> 
> At any rate, the mistake is mine for missing that your comment was about spelling. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


But you still miss the main point of my original reply and that is that Roundup and similar herbicides have not been shown to have anything to do with bee colony collapse other than depriving them from nectar from non-agricultural plants in farm fields. 

Martin


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## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

Murray in ME said:


> While the word pesticide is most often used when referring to insecticides, beewench is not wrong in reffering to an herbicide as a pesticide. The word pesticide refers to a bunch of different "cides". Herbicides, insecticides and fungicides are all pesticides. As are other products, such as defoliants and dessicants.



Call them what you will, it's poison plain and simple


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

chickenslayer said:


> Call them what you will, it's poison plain and simple


That's exactly what they are supposed to be no matter if it is simple vinegar or Agent Orange.

Martin


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## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

Paquebot said:


> That's exactly what they are supposed to be no matter if it is simple vinegar or Agent Orange.
> 
> Martin


True, but I would rather fall into a vat of vinegar


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Regardless of those few who wish to see NTRotty fail in an effort to create a bee feast, it will unlikely happen given only the 2 options. That is, disking or tilling alone will not do it. The land currently would consist primarily of permanent vegetation of which neither disking nor tilling would have much lethal affect on it. Disking would amount to merely aerating the soil for whatever is there. Tilling will just cut the roots into smaller bits to become more plants. Our garlic fields were disked twice the day after harvesting a month ago. Today was my second trip through with a hoe to shear off anything which may have a chance to set seed within the next 6 weeks. 

Establishing clover used to be done over 3 or 4 years when starting with sod. Sod would be plowed under and planted to corn. Then the corn was cultivated 3 or 4 times to eliminate weeds that year. The following year would have the field plowed and grain planted along with the clover. The grain would grow fast and shade out any germinating weeds while acting as a nurse crop for the clover. After the grain was cut, the clover had several more months to establish itself. Next spring, the clover would be big enough to defeat the weeds. 

Since the above system isn't going to be practical in this situation, something else has to be done to eliminate the existing vegetation. Not being a row crop, planting and mechanical cultivation isn't going to work. Seeding and manual cultivation isn't going to work. That leaves only elimination of the unwanted vegetation by other means. Various means are available and how you do it is your own business. Your rate of success will depend upon that which you choose. Glyphosate or similar has proven to be the most successful. Anything less and you will be defeating your own purpose. 

Martin


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## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against round-up used to prepare new planting ground, in fact I am about to do it here myself for a clover patch about 2500sf. I don't want to eat anything that has round-up sprayed on while it is growing though.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

When the parks departments are trying to re-introduce native prairie plants they take several years to prepare the plots. City, state and federal DNR departments all use Round-up to kill off the existing vegetation before planting with native flowers and grasses. If you are trying to plant in a small 10 x10 foot area hand weeding might work. Anything larger and you will have nothing but a weed patch. The reason Round-up is used is not just because it is cheaper than having an army of people weeding the area but also because glyphosates break down quickly. Vinegar in doses high enough to kill stubborn weeds will also render the soil toxic to plants for quite a while.


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## Murray in ME (May 10, 2002)

Paquebot said:


> But you still miss the main point of my original reply and that is that Roundup and similar herbicides have not been shown to have anything to do with bee colony collapse other than depriving them from nectar from non-agricultural plants in farm fields.
> 
> Martin


No, I did not miss that point. I simply didn't comment on it.


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## Randy Rooster (Dec 14, 2004)

No one has pointed out that roundup only kills existing weeds- any seed they may have cast in years past will still be viable and competing with the clover.


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## BruceC (Jan 19, 2011)

Randy Rooster said:


> No one has pointed out that roundup only kills existing weeds- any seed they may have cast in years past will still be viable and competing with the clover.


Fortunately you only rent herbicide else there wouldnât be any wildflower seed to plant.

If you tilled a pasture I would think the tiller would clog with roots every 100 foot.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Randy Rooster said:


> No one has pointed out that roundup only kills existing weeds- any seed they may have cast in years past will still be viable and competing with the clover.


Right on. And that's why I stated that either a disc or a tiller would be a tossup after a killdown with glysophate. And that keeping clover weed free would likely mean a continual use of other chemical "pesticides"(yes, that's the technical definition of glysophate and other chemicals _generally spoken of _as herbicides, as given by the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations) that would be compatible with the clover. During the first season after planting, most clovers will not blossom, rather they will spend most of that season gaining leaf and root growth. For me, I use a moldboard plow and a disc to prep the ground in the very early spring. I try to seed Ladino and yellow sweet clover along with a nurse crop of oats, and I try to get it thick enough to supress any weed and grass seeds that were buried in the soil. And I don't do anything until the next year, after the yellow sweet clover has bloomed and gone to seed(it's a biannual) and after the first bloom of the Ladino--then I clip it--to get rid of any grasses that have germinated--before they go to seed. I will do this as needed during the summer to try to keep the grass and weeds from going to seed. The Ladino seed will also help fill in any bare spots.......

The OP didn't say whether the bees are kept for honey production, or if he/she wishes to increase the bee population for better germination of plants and such. But I would say, that combining an acre with clover and wildflowers would make the use of chemicals impossible without killing the wildflowers--thus, I would predict that weeds and grasses would probably overcome that area in about three years if nothing is done to it after planting. But, a monoculture of clovers alone--kept pristine by chemicals, would have gaps in flower production that would not sustain bees unless other flowering plants were planted nearby.

SO, if the job has to be redone periodically, then, I would say that the OP could get by with a killdown of Roundup, then a rototiller. But if chemicals are not preferred, I would recommend a moldboard plow(to break the sod) and a disc, cultipacker operation. Even after all that, it would depend on whether the OP would have other uses for the equipment--making the choice dependent on that factor. I know I wouldn't keep an expensive piece of equipment idle in the shed for three or four years.......I would look for a combo.....

With weedwhacker in hand....

geo


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

Randy Rooster said:


> No one has pointed out that roundup only kills existing weeds- any seed they may have cast in years past will still be viable and competing with the clover.


Were that the case, planting any farm crop would be a waste of time and money. As pointed out in my last reply, planting success depends upon what germinates first. All seeds need certain conditions in order to germinate. One may have a clean bean or corn field for years but leave it barren and it becomes a weedy jungle. If there is not enough sunlight for the seeds to germinate, they remain dormant until such conditions are met. Hayfields were always established via sowing with grain. The grain prevented the weeds from germinating but their seeds were still there. The clover or other hay plants established themselves yet that year and were first to grow the following spring. Then it was the hay's turn to prevent the weed seeds from germinating. In the case of plants, it's always been the rule that whichever grows first is the one which wins. That rule still applies.

Martin


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Paquebot said:


> Were that the case, planting any farm crop would be a waste of time and money. As pointed out in my last reply, planting success depends upon what germinates first. All seeds need certain conditions in order to germinate. One may have a clean bean or corn field for years but leave it barren and it becomes a weedy jungle. If there is not enough sunlight for the seeds to germinate, they remain dormant until such conditions are met. Hayfields were always established via sowing with grain. The grain prevented the weeds from germinating but their seeds were still there. The clover or other hay plants established themselves yet that year and were first to grow the following spring. Then it was the hay's turn to prevent the weed seeds from germinating. In the case of plants, it's always been the rule that whichever grows first is the one which wins. That rule still applies.
> 
> Martin


In the late 1940's in Indiana at least, soybeans became a blessing for us. Usually the beans came off early enough to drill wheat into the stubble with one, or no discing, and would provide nitrogen for growing the wheat. Early that next spring, we would broadcast clover, most often Big Red and some yellow sweet into the wheat. After combining the wheat and baling the straw, the remaining stubble, shaded and nursed the tender clover until the next year for making hay. Big Red and yellow sweet, being biannual, could still be used for late Summer and Fall grazing, but it was then turned under the next year for corn. Thus began a four year rotation scheme that gave good cash crops while still allowing for cows, and also the sweet smell of the Indiana new mown hay in the song.......

That worked well, until livestock and dairying became consolidated into ever larger operations, and Dean Butz encouraged farmers to get rid of all the fences and plant road to road. And until Johnson grass and giant foxtail became the scourges of the row crops.

geo


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> If you tilled a pasture I would think the tiller would *clog with roots *every 100 foot.


That's why I prefer a disc.
(Along with cheaper cost and longer working life)


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## beewench (Mar 5, 2010)

Sorry about the spelling error, dyslexia at it's finest. Glyphosate is and ingredient in monsanto's herbicide Round-Up. Yes, it's classified as an herbicide...so I should have used that term instead of pesticide. Please excuse that error also. 

Unfortunately, most agencies in the US that are supposed to "oversee" chemical and environmental concerns are heavily influenced by big business like Monsanto. Therefore, some if the "data" is often skewed to be in their best interest. Please take the time to review studies and research done by Prof Eric-Giles Seralini from Caen University in France, The Institute of Science in Society in London, Prof Don M. Huber from Purdue University and by Andres Carrasco the Director of the Molecular Embryology Lab at UBA and the Chief Scientist for the National Council for Science and Technology. There is overwhelming proof that glyphosates are not as "environmentally friendly" as Monsanto, the EPA and the USDA would like you to believe.


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## BruceC (Jan 19, 2011)

I&#8217;m with you Beewench. I don&#8217;t know nothing except the bees started dying off a few years after roundup ready beans and corn became predominate.

My experience (little it is) is that tilling a pasture will bring up seed and nutrients that will cause a blaze of native growth that will overcome anything you sow.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

BruceC said:


> My experience (little it is) is that tilling a pasture will bring up seed and nutrients that will cause a blaze of native growth that will overcome anything you sow.


Then it's your opinion that it can't be done? Are you suggesting that the project be dismissed? Traditional methods of establishing a new perennial field seem to not be an option. 15-20 hogs per acre for a year probably also not an option. Seven years of hoeing probably not an option. Do we tell the OP to forget it despite fully knowing that it's not only quite possible but even more effective and economical than methods employed 100 years ago? 

Martin


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## BruceC (Jan 19, 2011)

Jeeze, I&#8217;m just saying what I&#8217;ve experienced&#8230; tempered with &#8220;(little it is)&#8221;.
I tilled up pasture for raspberry rows and the grass, lambsquarters, horsetail, ragweed&#8230; grew twice as tall and thick in the tilled area than in the fallow ground.

Well, I feel like a total turd now. I should stick to asking questions.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

BruceC said:


> Jeeze, Iâm just saying what Iâve experiencedâ¦ tempered with â(little it is)â.
> I tilled up pasture for raspberry rows and the grass, lambsquarters, horsetail, ragweedâ¦ grew twice as tall and thick in the tilled area than in the fallow ground.
> 
> Well, I feel like a total turd now. I should stick to asking questions.


No need to feel that way...... Tilled ground, IF LEFT BARE, will give weed seeds that have been buried for, who knows, maybe dozens of years, the chance to germinate and quickly become a jungle. The glysophate, in this situation is used to "burn down" the existing sod growth to make it _managable_ for the first tilling in preparation to sow a crop of clover and wildflowers. One CAN sow the clover seed and a nurse crop like oats or annual rye to germinate _ahead_ of the weeds--which covers up the ground again to help prevent those weeds from germinating. Roundup or not, the process isn't perfect, and weeds and/or unwanted grasses will invade sooner or later. In this case, it should be later......

The only other way, aside from using Roundup plus a disc or tiller, is to bury the sod with a moldboard plow. But one still has the problem of _beating_ the weed germination with the clover and a nurse crop. (Nature abhors a vacuum....) And that's why, with raspberries, one should think about a weed blocking mulch or black plastic between the rows to keep the weeds down. Or sow clover and a nurse crop of oats or annual ryegrass.......

geo


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

BruceC said:


> Well, I feel like a total turd now. I should stick to asking questions.


You don't have to feel that way. You merely made certain comments that would need further clarification. It's surprising how few real "homesteaders" are on this board. This thread is obvious that very few have any real knowledge whatsoever in what the OP desires to do and even fewer have the experience. I once got enough alsike and ladino clover mix through FFA to plant 20 acres. Since we only needed half, shared the other half with neighbor. Broadcast on plowed ground just about this time of year for neighbor and well-rooted hog pasture for us. We both had stands of almost 100% clover the following year.

This could bring up another glitch in the OP's plan. The type of clover would also be important when mixed with wildflowers. Red will compete but won't work well since honeybees have trouble with that. Bees love alsike but it will initially overwhelm everything else which includes the wildflowers. Ladino will act the same way but hasn't much nectar. The only one which will compete with the wildflowers would be sweet clover. Thus the best clover option in this case would be sweet clover. And once established, it will be there for years. 

Martin


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## BruceC (Jan 19, 2011)

I understand a message board can run amuck with useless opinion. 
I guess the only original advice I can offer the OP to solve the problem&#8230; hire an expert.
Haha.


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