# Self defense rifle



## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

What would your choice be AK-47 or some version of the AR-15? I can see plusses to both. The AK-47 shoots a larger and heavier bullet out to greater ranges than the AR-15, and is not sensitive to dirt or not being cleaned religiously. The AR-15 is far more accurate within its range capability, but also shoots a much lighter bullet, and is far more particular about being cleaned and maintained.

Ammunition for the Ak-47 is very available and cheap in my area. It is available in hollow point, full metal jacket with a steel core, and soft nose lead for hunting. Ammunition for the AR-15 is available, but it is far from cheap.

Let me know what you think, or perhaps if you have other choices for a holding off the zombie hourdes!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Inside 200 yds, neither has an real advantage.

Beyond that , accuracy means more than a few grains of bullet weight


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2011)

The AK uses 7.62X54 ammo which has some decided advantages. The Clinton gooberment banned import of 7.62X39 surplus ammo but not 7.62X54. This means you can still buy 1000 round tins of Eastern Block surplus ammo cheaply and it's packaged for long term storage. This is military surplus so the bullets are full metal jacket as/per the Geneva convention. This means you will put nice, neat holes in the zombies. This ammo is usually Berdan primed so it's hard to reload.

If you wish to reload the 7.62X54 ammo you will find out that the 7.62 mm diameter bullet converts to .308 inches which just happens to be the diameter bullet a 30-06 takes. Additionaly, if you buy ammo or empty brass in the 7.62X54 size that uses actual brass cases that are Boxer primed, you can reload them as easily as any other caliber and they take a large rifle primer, same as a 30-06. So, the bullets and primers are the same in both the 7.62X54 and the very popular 30-06. In a barter situation you have more desireable bullets and primers.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

"The AK-47 shoots a larger and heavier bullet out to greater ranges than the AR-15" not ture. my kids shoot ar-15 at 600yards as a regular part of service rifle shooting events, 200 yards, 300 yards and twenty rounds at 600 yards. and hit an X ring on a target that is considered a "head" shot. Thats with iron sights my friends. my daughter (ten at the time) used a borrowed m4 carbine to shoot sharpshooter scores at 600 yards. i have a video around here somewhere.

i've seen the ar platform (lower with a long barrel upper) shoot competatively with match guns at 1000 yards. the aerodynamics of the bullet is close to the 308.

i will not put down the ak 47 here,,,because i'm sure it has a function somewhere,,,perhaps a chuck if your parking brakes give out....just kidding,,,,,

actually i think someone is going to give my son an ak 47 and i an glad to get it in the collection.. 

let the flames begain..


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Neither. My suggestion would be either the M1A SOCOM or the M1A Scout. I chose the Scout.


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## hhhandyman (Apr 28, 2011)

Nimrod:

AK's and SKS's use the 7.62 x 39mm Intermediate Cartridge. The 7.62 x 54R is used in the Mosiin Nagant..


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## poorboy (Apr 15, 2006)

hhhandyman said:


> Nimrod:
> 
> AK's and SKS's use the 7.62 x 39mm Intermediate Cartridge. The 7.62 x 54R is used in the Mosiin Nagant..


Also, the 7.62x54 Russian bullet is .311, NOT the .308 diameter of the 'o6..:cowboy:


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

I would love to own an M1A SOCOM or Scout rifle. Unfortunately the roughly +$2K they go for around here means I could buy 2 AR-15's or 6 AK-47's. Maybe someday my finances will allow me to buy one, but not right now.

As for availability of 7.62x39mm ammunition, it is available all over up here, from gun stores, to hardware stores, to Farm & Fleet, or Fleet Farm. There are several brands of Russian ammo like Wolf, and the different Bear varieties, as well as Winchester white box and Federal ammo.

.223 ammo is available from the big names like WWB, Federal, UPC, and others. The cost is dramatically more than 7.62x39mm. The same can be said for .308/7.62x51mm ammunition, available but expensive in comparison.

I do already own an AK-47 and I am fully aware that it is not an MOA capable sniper rifle. But I didn't buy it to be either. I bought it first and foremost as a fun rifle for plinking and target shooting. Secondarily I bought it for a self defense rifle because of its over 60 years of rugged reliability and dependability under harsh conditions.

I have been considering an AR-15 for quite a while now. Mostly for my wife, but also as another fun gun to shoot for recreation. She doesn't like the Ak-47, for her it is too heavy and unweildy for her to shoot comfortably. In my mind you have to be comfortable with the rifle you are shooting and like how it feels or it becomes a chore and not a fun experience to shoot.

To be quite honest, shooting past 200 yards is beyond MY capability at this point. So whether longer range is relevant to me or not is questionable at this point.

Let's keep the conversation going.


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## Bluesgal (Jun 17, 2011)

Well I do covet a nice AR-15 and would love to have one.... and I can easily hit 200 yards with iron sights on my friends AR-15. In fact I blame him for the fact that I now want one!! (grin).

However, in need a a long gun, I picked up a Ruger Mini-30 which uses 7.62x 39 as opposed to the Mini-14 (.223) simply because the 7.62 is more plentiful and cheaper to shoot on a regular basis... and well I knew an AR-15 was in my future. Anything inside 200 yards the mini-30 will drop it with the 7.62 ammo.

This is how I look at the AK vs the AR-15: the AK will take any and all abuse all day long and into next week. The AR-15 has better accuracy at greater distance but is more tempermental... YMMV


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

LeopardFrog said:


> I have been considering an AR-15 for quite a while now. Mostly for my wife, but also as another fun gun to shoot for recreation....


My wife's self defense rifle is the Colt AR-15A3 Tactical Carbine (HBAR). She likes the shorter carbine length and the adjustible shoulder stock. Someday she'd like to take off the removable carry handle and get a EOTech sight.


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## Bluesgal (Jun 17, 2011)

Hey Cabin - How did you know that is on my Holiday wish list???!!:grin:


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

If you buy an AR15-make sure it has 5.56 chamber....5.56/.223 chambers are NOT the same....
AK's can be very accurate-just reload using good powder and Hornaday 123gr SP-you'd be surprised...
And I agree with CF-a Scout is the best choice/length for M1A platform...nothing wrong with the good ole Garand either.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

zant said:


> ...nothing wrong with the good ole Garand either.


If you don't reload, economical Garand ammo is getting harder and harder to find. With that said, I lucked out at this weekend's auction and picked up 1400 rounds in sealed spam cans for about 32Â¢ per round. All was American-made, Lake City Arsenal and Denver Ordnance. The Denver stuff is all armor-piercing.


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2011)

Wow. I really opened a can of worms but I learned something too. Researching I discovered that some AK 47's use 7.62x39 ammo and some use 7.62X54. Also some have .308 inch diameter barrells and some have .311 inch diameter. 

So measure the diameter of your barrell and buy bullets accordingly.


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

*SKS, model D or model M*

For me, a better weapon than the AK47 is an SKS, model D or model M. They wre made at the Norinco factory to take the same magazines as the AK's. And they fired the same round, more accurately. With a 5-round magazine they make an excellent little deer rifle.
They are kinda hard to find. And they cost 3 times as much as a regular SKS.
Worth the money, though.


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## longshot38 (Dec 19, 2006)

Nimrod said:


> The AK uses 7.62X54 ammo which has some decided advantages. The Clinton gooberment banned import of 7.62X39 surplus ammo but not 7.62X54. This means you can still buy 1000 round tins of Eastern Block surplus ammo cheaply and it's packaged for long term storage. This is military surplus so the bullets are full metal jacket as/per the Geneva convention. This means you will put nice, neat holes in the zombies. This ammo is usually Berdan primed so it's hard to reload.
> 
> If you wish to reload the 7.62X54 ammo you will find out that the 7.62 mm diameter bullet converts to .308 inches which just happens to be the diameter bullet a 30-06 takes. Additionaly, if you buy ammo or empty brass in the 7.62X54 size that uses actual brass cases that are Boxer primed, you can reload them as easily as any other caliber and they take a large rifle primer, same as a 30-06. So, the bullets and primers are the same in both the 7.62X54 and the very popular 30-06. In a barter situation you have more desireable bullets and primers.


the AK and the SKS fire the 7.62X39 not the longer round. the longer 7.62X54 is fired from the older bolt action Mossin Naget. and yes the 7.62X39 cannot be reloaded, the surplus stuff that is, the case is steel and does not allow for reloads.

as to the OP, couple of options, one is the Lee Enfield, in .303 or .308 (7.62X51), ( similar ballistics) smooth bolt action capable of the mad minute can be loaded with stripper clips or replace mags. the other option is the good old Winchester or Marlin lever action guns. you can put a lot of lead down range in a hurry and you can top off the tube magazine instead of having to dump a mag and insert a new one, you can do this on the move with a little practice. the ammo is readily available and has similar ballistics to the Russian short (7.62X39) the added bonus is any sheep that see it will think grandpa's deer rifle and not notice where as if you have a black or red rifle people notice, sometimes not in a good way.

just my nickle's worth.
dean


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## topside1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Hi guys, I've been shooting guns my entire life. Finally broke down and spent some real money. Three weeks ago I bought a Colt Sporter .223 and all I can say is wow. Lightweight, quick target aquisition, drop and load mags without taking you eye off target, accurate, low recoil, and just looks Colt cool. Glad I spent the money, should have done this years ago...Topside


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## Just Cliff (Nov 27, 2008)

Mini 30 here. I have never been too impressed with the AR's. I wouldn't turn my nose up at one if I was given one but I would nopt waste my money on one.


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## WolfWalksSoftly (Aug 13, 2004)

Take Both And Toss Them In A Muddy, Sandy, Water Pond, And You Will See The AK Shoot. You Will See Someone Cleaning The AR. You Want A Self Defense/ Survival Weapon That Is "Simple" To Break Down, Accurate And Consistant...AK Hands Down.

BTW CF..I Wish I Still Had My AP, Tracer Rounds, If I Had Only Not Stored Them In The Boat When It caught Fire & Sank.


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## InvalidID (Feb 18, 2011)

I want one of the PSL Dragonov knock offs. What is it, the 54 I think. I can't afford a real Tigr, but that PSL works as a close 2nd in my book. Plus I have a ton of 54r floating around here.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Cabin Fever-very nice score-just don't use the cans for food
Nimrod-NO AK/AKM uses 7.62x54 ammo...A Dragonov 0r one of it's knockoffs-PSL,etc may look like an AK but they have a 3rd locking lug in rear...ALL AK's are .311(.310-.312)...As of course the Moisin-1 of my el-cheap favorites.
Mini 30..some have .308,some .311..I believe you can tell by ser#
Another great deal is the AK74-ammo is running about 140 for 1200,lighter recoil,much nastier wound ballistics...


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

How about the Saiga in 7.62X39 or 223?


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

Heck if money were no option I would love to have a Garand, and an M1 carbine, and a Dragonov. Possibly even a .50 caliber Barret semi auto rifle.

But...sadly it is the determining factor.


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

I have an AK chambered for .223. Is that the best of both worlds?


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## Joe Prepper (Jul 25, 2011)

If your not sure then either will do. Buy what you can get the best deal on...Rifle and ammo.(my guess is the AK47). 

Age old which is better debate. Personally I was surprised that I found the AK to be a better platform for me. Since I like the SKS and it uses the same round....icing!


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

You can do some surprising social work with Federal Gold Match 77g stuff in a properly twisted barrel, set up on a good platform...and the stuff should shoot in your AR, if I'm not mistaken, if you run out of SS109.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

I think in the true essence of it all-what you can afford,how much you practice,how good you can shoot may be important than which is the best rifle/caliber.A single shot rifle will allow you to "upgrade" under certain circumstances.....


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Jolly said:


> You can do some surprising social work with Federal Gold Match 77g stuff in a properly twisted barrel, set up on a good platform...and the stuff should shoot in your AR, if I'm not mistaken, if you run out of SS109.


I shoot 70 gr Speer semi spitzers out of a 1-8" twist Rock River and they rip nice 1" exit holes out of deer sized animals. And they are very accurate.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

My view. . .Any round you can't hunt deer with in states with large deer should not be considered a self defense round.

I want a round which can hit a target with enough energy to stop it at a minimum of 300 meters. 500 meters is better.

As I have told a couple of buddies my 7.62X51 can do anything their 7.62X39 or 5.56X45 can and then some.


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

watcher said:


> My view. . .Any round you can't hunt deer with in states with large deer should not be considered a self defense round.
> 
> I want a round which can hit a target with enough energy to stop it at a minimum of 300 meters. 500 meters is better.
> 
> As I have told a couple of buddies my 7.62X51 can do anything their 7.62X39 or 5.56X45 can and then some.


I don't disagree that the 7.62x51 is a great round. Heck the military brought the M14 platform back out of mothballs because of its range and punch. Squad machine guns, with the exception of the M249, have been 7.62x51 since the Viet Nam era. The issue for me is cost of a tactical semi-automatic rifle in this caliber. 

In your standard for large deer I believe the 7.62x39mm has an advantage over the 5.56x45mm. I have a bolt action CZ527 that is chambered in 7.62x39mm that would be my choice for a deer rifle if need be.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

I would go with the M-1 Garand.... 
Either chambered in .30-06 Springfield, or they are also available chambered in .308/ 7.62X51mm.
I have several weapons chambered in, and lots of .30-06 Springfield ammunition here. 

They are still currently available from CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) at around $500 dollars, for the lower end Field Grade.

_http://www.odcmp.com/_

http://www.odcmp.com/sales.htm

That and I can attach a bayonet on mine, or on my 1903 Springfield. Then hit the target in the black at 500+ yards using open sights. 

I don't get as tight a grouping using my Mosin-Nagant rifles/ carbines chambered in 7.62X54mm Russian that far out.

I had a couple of SKS carbines and an AK-47 chambered in 7.62X39mm in the past, but I have sold them off. 

That and I was issued a M-16A1 in the Marine Corps, so there's no love here for either the 5.56mm or the 7.62X39mm calibers.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

I don't think the average engagement distance is going to be anything like 500 yards. And the closer the engagement, the better to put multiple projectiles on target.

That's why shotguns are so valuable at the closest of engagement envelopes.


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## MichaelK! (Oct 22, 2010)

Another advantage of the AR is in 30 seconds you can drop out the two pins holding the upper receiver out and swap in a new caliber. With the AR you have choices ranging from the .204 to .450. With the AK all you get is 7.62X39 or the 5.45X39mm in the AK74, but not interchangeably.

Yeah, you can make the 7.62X39 work for deer hunting, but there are a lot better choices and it should be considered slighty better than marginal.


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

Jolly said:


> I don't think the average engagement distance is going to be anything like 500 yards. And the closer the engagement, the better to put multiple projectiles on target.
> 
> That's why shotguns are so valuable at the closest of engagement envelopes.


I agree on the 500 yard engagement being a little far fetched for my situation. In order to get a clear shot at 500 yards I would have to stand in the middle of the road and sight down the road towards town. The longest clear shot I would have on my property is around 200 yards, and most would be 50 to 100 yards due to trees and buildings.

Shotguns aren't a problem. I own a few of them and I see those in the survival arena mostly used for hunting, but also for close up self defense.


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

MichaelK! said:


> Another advantage of the AR is in 30 seconds you can drop out the two pins holding the upper receiver out and swap in a new caliber. With the AR you have choices ranging from the .204 to .450. With the AK all you get is 7.62X39 or the 5.45X39mm in the AK74, but not interchangeably.
> 
> Yeah, you can make the 7.62X39 work for deer hunting, but there are a lot better choices and it should be considered slighty better than marginal.



I see the interchanging of upper receivers for different calibers as a slight advantage in a purely survival situation. But in a self defense scenario it holds no benefit at all. You will pick one caliber and stick with it as you fight for your life. I am not demeaning the platform, just the practicality in a survival scenario of expecting to be able to carry multiple receivers and ammunition for the caliber changes.

Why would you rate the 7.62x39 as only slightly better than marginal for deer hunting? I know several people in my area that deer hunt with an SKS and have great luck dropping deer with it. There is soft nose lead hunting ammunition available for the 7.62x39. I suppose if you hunt deer in the mountains and want to drop them at 500 to 1000 yards the 7.62x39 is not the best choice, but in the wooded terrain where I live with shots rarely exceeding 100 yards it works just fine.

I will most likely in the next few months buy an AR for my wife. Not to replace the AK that I use, but something lighter with less recoil for her to use.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

Jolly said:


> I don't think the average engagement distance is going to be anything like 500 yards. And the closer the engagement, the better to put multiple projectiles on target.
> 
> That's why shotguns are so valuable at the closest of engagement envelopes.


talkin,, just talking cause i plan on running before i shoot anyone,,,,,but a person that can deliver lead accurately at 600 yards or greater is at an advantage in most cases. the ak cannot, the ar can. there is a match loosely called rattle battle ( National Trophy Team Match) that is modeled by this military fact. 

the ak has power advanges at close ranges but close range is the last place i want to be. accuracy is the deal. 

the ar platform can be a short entry carbine but converted to a long range accurate rifle with in 45 seconds by changing uppers. my family is on its way to firing 3000 rounds, total of 6000 rounds through two ar's so far this year. knock on wood, not a single problem with the rifles. 

don't know the barrel life on the ak's,,,,,but with the kind of shooting my kids do, we have to rebarrel about every 4000 to 5000 rounds....the accuracy at long distances will become undependable, but will not affect 200 and 300 yard accuracy. kinda sweet in that Remington/Bushmaster helps my kids out with barrels.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I would go with what ever you can shoulder and get an aimed shot off the fastest with 
and follow up aimed shots.


since your rate of fire of un-aimed shots isn't worth a hill of beans, and neither is showing up late to the fight.


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

MichaelK! said:


> Yeah, you can make the 7.62X39 work for deer hunting, but there are a lot better choices and it should be considered slighty better than marginal.


7.62x39 in a decent hunting bullet is nearly identical in performance to a 30-30 

the 30-30 has an advantage of only 2-3 hundred feet per second in a 150 gr bullet 

the 30-30 does have the advantage of accepting heavier bullets but only up to 170-180 gr in most guns


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

30-30 has killed more deer than any other caliber,I believe...


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## Qhorseman (Jul 9, 2010)

My vote goes to the M1A scout squad. Soon to back it up with the Ruger Gunsite M77.


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

zant said:


> 30-30 has killed more deer than any other caliber,I believe...


I believe that is correct also. But it is not fashionable any longer and has been supplemented by dang near every large bore centerife round known to man.

Funny thing to is the 30-30 in a lever action rifle could very well be considered the common man's first assault rifle. Relatively large ammo capacity, rapid fire capability, fairly rapid reload. Best part is...it doesn't draw attention to itself like an evil black rifle does.


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## Qhorseman (Jul 9, 2010)

LeopardFrog said:


> I believe that is correct also. But it is not fashionable any longer and has been supplemented by dang near every large bore centerife round known to man.
> 
> Funny thing to is the 30-30 in a lever action rifle could very well be considered the common man's first assault rifle. Relatively large ammo capacity, rapid fire capability, fairly rapid reload. Best part is...it doesn't draw attention to itself like an evil black rifle does.


I wouldn't discount the 30-30. Check out Marlins website, they have a 336BL, that has a short barrel and a big loop lever. There are some YouTubes how to set that rifle up as a Bug Out rifle


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Iâve gone the 7.62 route, had a M1A and a DSA SA58 Para FAL, still have the FAL. I just liked the ergonomics of the FAL much better. I also have a Colt LE6920. If I had to pick one, it would be the LE6920. 

IMHO the advantages of the AR or 5.56 outweigh the advantage of the heavier 7.62. 

Itâs modular, with a quick swap of optics I can go from CQB to a DMR weapon. With HPs or SPs it doesnât over-penetrate if used for a HD weapon. As someone else said with a push of a couple pins you can swap uppers for different calibers or barrel lengths. Itâs light weight and short overall length makes it ideal for shooters of smaller stature, the collapsible stock helps too. The recoil in 5.56 isnât hard for new shooters to deal with. Add a .22 conversion and it will work for small game and make an excellent trainer. A 20 rd mag of 7.62 is approx 3lbs, while a 30 rd mag of 5.56 is about 1lb. My DSA FAL weighs in at 8.2lbs stripped and 13lbs with optic and loaded 20 rd Mag. My M4 with Optic, light, and 30rd mag is under 9lbs. 

I also prefer the M4 configured AR because at 51 years old I canât see myself carrying a 12lb+ rifle much longer and being able to use it effectively. Iâve shot both in 3-Gun matches and the M4 is much, much faster on multiple targets at distances that would normally be considered "self defense". 

Chuck


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

I have to question the battle effectiveness of the M4 or other AR models at ranges over 500 yards. The reason the military is bringing back the M14, with "dedicated marksmen," in Afghanistan is the M4 was unable to take out targets at the distance the targets were taking out our troops. The short barreled M4 while light, and quick to bring to target, does not have long range capability in a combat scenario.

Is that a concern of mine for my potential uses? Nope, because as I said the majority of probable targets would be within 200 yards and most between 50 and 100 yards. So the M4 would work just fine. For that matter so would the AK-47. If I were looking for a long range rifle for ranges in the 500 yards plus range I would look to an M1A with optics. I am 52 years old, and the eyes aren't necessarily as good as they once were.

As far as interchangable uppers and barrels for different calibers or tasks, how much weight in that equipment will you carry with you if you bug out? Again, that seems like a great idea in a strictly survival, protect in place scenario, not so much in a fluid, bug out battle field scenario. Honestly, I could carry my Ruger 10/22 and my AK-47 and be able to hunt any game, other than flying birds, in my area.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I've got 30-30's, an AK, an AR, and a long distance magnum.

The original OP wanted to know about self defense...

I see trouble half a mile away, I'll sandbag the magnum.

See it quarter mile away, the AR...

See it right outside the door, the AK...

In pretty much every scenario, the 30-30 stays in the closet.

My 'door' gun is an AK, folded stock, with 30 rounds in it... intimidation and spray and pray go first, then pull out the more accurate hardware to do coup de grace's... imho, pretty much everyone is going to be diving for cover when a semi auto unleashes a couple clips of whatever...

Also, pretty much any firearm beats a sharp stick... 

any weapon in the house, should be pretty much spotless...

going on the 'run', away from the house??? the AK just happens to be the closest... it'll go with me...


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## Qhorseman (Jul 9, 2010)

In a real world scenario, with the safety of my daughters to worry about, I would not engage in CQB with any size of armed resistance. Fall back to a safe place and live to fight another day. 500 yards would pose no threat and would give me a chance to assure my kids are safe. But if money were no object and my targets were 500 yards out, a Chandler would be my choice


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

Qhorseman said:


> I wouldn't discount the 30-30. Check out Marlins website, they have a 336BL, that has a short barrel and a big loop lever. There are some YouTubes how to set that rifle up as a Bug Out rifle


Not discounting the 30-30 at all. Just saying in this area it has been joined or perhaps replaced in some cases with the .243, .270, .308, 30-06, 7mm, 7.62x39, and more.

I still believe it is a viable round and will be around for a very long time.


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## Just Cliff (Nov 27, 2008)

Anything past 100 yards, I grab the Remington 700. I can surgically remove them parts of them out to 700 yards. That would be more of an offencive action.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

I prefer the SKS....tuff ruff, can be dragged thru the mud and taken part and field stripped with only a bullet.

It was designed to hit a chest size target at 300 yards and I would question the sanity of anyone who stood 500 yards away in plain sight Doubting the accuracy at that range ....

I also prefer the 10 round attached mag well it has......sure I have a few 60 round duck bills if needed........they allow for some lack of accuracy at range and will keep a foe pinned down.



If they decide to stay in a covered position at range, I am sure the mosin will pick them out or run them off.

I just do not envision alot of sniper action in a loot and pillage situation, if I was pinned down from sniper fire in my house, I would retreat and regroup......surprise has it`s advantages also, as I would wait untill the last possible second to engage targets near or in the house...it puts me more at risk, but also assures maximum casulties for the invader.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Kid(I'm old)I used to team drive with can hit a 10"x10" steel plate I have hanging at 500yds-8 out of 10 times consistently with an AR...when I ask him how the heck he does it-he says"I'm a Marine-we are marksman"...I'm lucky to hit it 1 out of 10...but then again my parents were married so I could'nt be a Marine


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

radiofish said:


> I would go with the M-1 Garand....
> Either chambered in .30-06 Springfield, or they are also available chambered in .308/ 7.62X51mm.
> I have several weapons chambered in, and lots of .30-06 Springfield ammunition here.
> 
> ...


The major weakness of the M1 is the inability to top off the mag. It has other minor weaknesses; the 8 rd capacity, the fact you must load it from the top forces you to take the weapon completely out of the ready position.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

Jolly said:


> I don't think the average engagement distance is going to be anything like 500 yards.


True but I rather have that ability as long as the weapon can do more. '




Jolly said:


> And the closer the engagement, the better to put multiple projectiles on target.


You need to ask yourself a MAJOR question: If one round won't stop the target why are you carrying the weapon. 




Jolly said:


> That's why shotguns are so valuable at the closest of engagement envelopes.


Not quite. One reason shotguns are so valuable isn't the number of projectiles, its the size/weight of the projectiles it throws.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

zant said:


> 30-30 has killed more deer than any other caliber,I believe...


It probably has lead to the most lost wounded deer as well. Any caliber can be used for deer as long as the shooter knows the weapon's and HIS limitations. With a 30-30 you are fairly limited.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

watcher said:


> The major weakness of the M1 is the inability to top off the mag. It has other minor weaknesses; the 8 rd capacity, the fact you must load it from the top forces you to take the weapon completely out of the ready position.


And thus, the birth of the M14 (M1A) which is essentially a M1 Garand with that uses a 20-rd magazine or can be fed with stripper clips from the top. 

A person experinced with a Garand - and using the sling properly - can easily load the rifle without moving the rifle from the firing position.


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## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

shawnlee said:


> I prefer the SKS....tuff ruff, can be dragged thru the mud and taken part and field stripped with only a bullet.
> 
> It was designed to hit a chest size target at 300 yards and I would question the sanity of anyone who stood 500 yards away in plain sight Doubting the accuracy at that range ....
> 
> ...




I think the sks is highly under-rated. Milled receiver, stout, very reliable, and perhaps a bit more accurate than the average AK at half the cost. I like the fixed 10 round mag and use stripper clips. All of the other rifles mentioned are good as well, I just really think the SKS is a good, budget rifle.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

LeopardFrog said:


> I have to question the battle effectiveness of the M4 or other AR models at ranges over 500 yards. The reason the military is bringing back the M14, with "dedicated marksmen," in Afghanistan is the M4 was unable to take out targets at the distance the targets were taking out our troops. The short barreled M4 while light, and quick to bring to target, does not have long range capability in a combat scenario.


I question it at ranges over 250 meters. Engaging targets beyond that with its energy loss and wind drift means most shooters are doing nothing but exposing their location.




LeopardFrog said:


> Is that a concern of mine for my potential uses? Nope, because as I said the majority of probable targets would be within 200 yards and most between 50 and 100 yards. So the M4 would work just fine. For that matter so would the AK-47. If I were looking for a long range rifle for ranges in the 500 yards plus range I would look to an M1A with optics. I am 52 years old, and the eyes aren't necessarily as good as they once were.


That is the same thing the military said when they switch from the 7.62 to the 5.56. Now, go back and reread your first paragraph and ask yourself if you still agree.


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

watcher said:


> True but I rather have that ability as long as the weapon can do more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you want to insure your target goes down either shoot them in the head or put multiple rounds in their vital organs. If I learned one thing from movies, and especially Zombieland, it is to double tap at least.


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

watcher said:


> It probably has lead to the most lost wounded deer as well. Any caliber can be used for deer as long as the shooter knows the weapon's and HIS limitations. With a 30-30 you are fairly limited.


The 30-30 used properly, by a skilled hunter, has no more or less chance of causing a lost wounded deer than any other caliber. It is not designed for long range shooting, it works fine as a deer hunting rifle in the woods with shorter range shots. To me the guys who think they can take a deer from hundred of yards away because they have the latest, greatest, new magnum round in their new scoped whiz bang rifle are more likely to not have a clean kill.


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

watcher said:


> I question it at ranges over 250 meters. Engaging targets beyond that with its energy loss and wind drift means most shooters are doing nothing but exposing their location.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the opinions.


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## Mark Twain (Mar 29, 2010)

In order to fend off the "Zombie Hordes" I would check with your neighbors and see what they are stockpiling and go with something compatible.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

not to change topics,,,but a shotgun with 00 is very ineffective beyond about 50 yards(too much spread of too few pellets) 00 is something people talk about,,,,,0000 is what IS used to increase the likely hood of a hit.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

is the military bringing back the m14? i have not heard of this...i have heard a few fellows talk about the AR10 being pressed into use. i think the standard is the M40 variation A3 for mid range 300 yard to long range 1000 yard work. in a bolt gun. 
but anyway the m14 is not as accurate as a built ar15. (i'm around both in very well trained hands just about every weekend). by the way i love the m14, just as i love the Garand and 1903,,,but it takes about $3000 worth of m14 to shoot with an $800 AR. the M14 will have to be tuned about every 1000 rounds or about every 12 months. The tuning usually has to do with the fit of the action in the stock,,,,which the ar does not have issues with. 

if an eleven year old girl can shoot 93% left handed with a borrowed m4 at 600 yards in some of the most challenging range winds in this nation,,,,seems you manly men could handle it......sorry had to do it.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

ace admirer said:


> ..if an eleven year old girl can shoot 93% left handed with a borrowed m4 at 600 yards in some of the most challenging range winds in this nation,,,,seems you manly men could handle it......sorry had to do it.


I pity the fool Zombies that show up as Ace's house! They'll be in for an education they hadn't bargained on! 



ace admirer said:


> is the military bring back the m14? i have not heard of this...


http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/03/army_m14_032210w/

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/m14-enhanced-battle-rifle/


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

ace admirer said:


> is the military bringing back the m14? i have not heard of this...i have heard a few fellows talk about the AR10 being pressed into use. i think the standard is the M40 variation A3 for mid range 300 yard to long range 1000 yard work. in a bolt gun.
> but anyway the m14 is not as accurate as a built ar15. (i'm around both in very well trained hands just about every weekend). by the way i love the m14, just as i love the Garand and 1903,,,but it takes about $3000 worth of m14 to shoot with an $800 AR. the M14 will have to be tuned about every 1000 rounds or about every 12 months. The tuning usually has to do with the fit of the action in the stock,,,,which the ar does not have issues with.
> 
> if an eleven year old girl can shoot 93% left handed with a borrowed m4 at 600 yards in some of the most challenging range winds in this nation,,,,seems you manly men could handle it......sorry had to do it.


The military IS in fact bringing back the M14 with dedicated marksmen assigned to squads because, whether you want to believe it or not, our troops were getting their asses shot off with long range rounds from insurgents that the 5.56mm round from the M4 had no chance of reaching. Most of the M14's are being restocked, overhauled, equipped with optics and sent out to the field. All reports have them doing quite well. Of course it is a 50 year old platform, but like so many other times our military finds itself ill equipped for parts of a mission and a long range rifle that could be carried by an infantryman and used as an everyday rifle was one of this mission' faults.

And how many times does that paper target at 600 yards shoot back? If the military is themselves saying the 5.56mm is ineffective at that range who am I to believe? Your daughter shooting paper targets, or an infantryman who says he is outgunned at distances over 300 meters? Sorry, but I will believe the infantryman.


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## MichaelK! (Oct 22, 2010)

LeopardFrog said:


> As far as interchangable uppers and barrels for different calibers or tasks, how much weight in that equipment will you carry with you if you bug out? Again, that seems like a great idea in a strictly survival, protect in place scenario, not so much in a fluid, bug out battle field scenario. Honestly, I could carry my Ruger 10/22 and my AK-47 and be able to hunt any game, other than flying birds, in my area.


When I bug out to my retreat, my extra uppers will be already there waiting for me. I'll just rely on my truck gun to get me there.

Hope some day you reach an economic level that doesn't force you to make concessions like this. If the 7.62 or 30-30 was the end all for deer hunting, then all the other excellent calibers out there wouldn't exist.

You know, just because a Geo Metro could drive across country, it wouldn't be my first choice for a cross country trip!


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

still loading your site,,,,but neat...i consider the m14 to be the light squard like the BAR. lots of firepower, not bad accuracy. 

practice with what you got...


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

MichaelK! said:


> When I bug out to my retreat, my extra uppers will be already there waiting for me. I'll just rely on my truck gun to get me there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have a nice day.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

we shoot with Marines and Army on a weekly basis. The Army is the AMU which does not rotate out, the Marines rotate out. we have lost two members that train with my Daughter and Son, both lost to IEDs. Our junior high power team regually out shoot the average Marine with A2. so at some point it is marksmanship, not size bullet. 

i never said the M4 was the weapon for long distance, did i? you are infering that. i was just posting an example of what most people consider short range tool that out shoots the person handling the tool. you say bigger gun,,,i'm saying it does not matter if you do not hit the target. 

"And how many times does that paper target at 600 yards shoot back?" i don't know let me think hard about that question and get back with you tomarrow... what does shooting back have to do with the accuracy of the rifle in your hands? are you implying that throwing lead out of an inaccurate autoloading rifle is more effictive than throwing lead out of an accurate autoloading rifle?......and i don't really care who you "beleive" i don't even know who you are.... but i do know that a bunch of you shoot lead at stuff at 100 and 200 yards (plinking) and if some person is at 600 yards hitting you in the head with a 80 grain .224 bullet traveling 2300 FPS, you are lost. sorry if i insulted your manhood...i was just jesting.....

Sorry to upset you (if i did) come out and do some shooting with us some weekend.

lets not talk just about my Daughter,,,,,,My son won the National Springfield Match Junior held at Camp Perry this year....its an old bolt action rifle who's design goes back a hundred years. those targets dont shoot back either, but if the rifleman and rifle can't put lead on target, it does not matter what the tool is.


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## unioncreek (Jun 18, 2002)

I've thought about this for a long time, which rifle I would buy. Even though I like the AR style rifles, I don't like the 5.56. The AK 7.62 has almost double the muzzle energy that the 5.56 has. I would go with the AK. If it came to a combat situation most of it would be at less than 100 yards and I would want something with as much knockdown power as I can get in a semi auto. I like the AR-10's but that too much recoil to have to deal with in a combat situation for quick followup shots.


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## unioncreek (Jun 18, 2002)

LeopardFrog said:


> The reason the military is bringing back the M14


The M14 never left the military, it's the Marines sniper rifle of choice. They've updated them quite a bit and now are better than they've every been.


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

unioncreek said:


> The M14 never left the military, it's the Marines sniper rifle of choice. They've updated them quite a bit and now are better than they've every been.


Of course they never LEFT the military, they have always been there as a SPECIALTY weapon, such as a sniper rifle. NOW they are back at the squad level being used to counter the long range capabilities of the insurgents.

The work they have done to the M14 to update is amazing, new stocks and better optics, just to name a couple, make it a viable option for the dedicated marksmen.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

All this back and forth,mines bigger than yours,this caliber kills 1.5 sec faster,etc is FUN...that's why we're GUN PEOPLE..But remember the old saying...
There ain't no problem
that can't be fixed
for $700 and a 30.06
Gun culture haiku


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Leopard Frog you've gone way over the line! You may want to think about deleting your insults - which is the entire post above - now!


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

As for the M14s, we had a request for information on M14 issue last year. Its true theyâre being reissued in limited quantities as DMR rifles. But primarily because the Armyâs new choice for a DMR rifle, the SR25, isnât available in large enough numbers yet, and the support isnât ready yet either. The M14s are actually on loan from the Dept of the Navy and from what I was told by the small arms guys at Benning theyâll have to be returned in their original configuration. Again it was a year ago that I spoke with them and at that time they said the Army wasnât interested in bringing it back and was moving on. The SGM I spoke with went so far as to call it an obsolete system that no longer had the support required (armorers and spare parts) to be viable. 

Chuck


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

ace admirer said:


> not to change topics,,,but a shotgun with 00 is very ineffective beyond about 50 yards(too much spread of too few pellets) 00 is something people talk about,,,,,0000 is what IS used to increase the likely hood of a hit.


I think you mean #4 buck.

Different loads for different guns. Most shotguns will tell you what load of buck they like best. My old BPS is awfully partial to Federal #1 buck, 3" magnum.


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

LeopardFrog said:


> The 30-30 used properly, by a skilled hunter, has no more or less chance of causing a lost wounded deer than any other caliber. It is not designed for long range shooting, it works fine as a deer hunting rifle in the woods with shorter range shots. To me the guys who think they can take a deer from hundred of yards away because they have the latest, greatest, new magnum round in their new scoped whiz bang rifle are more likely to not have a clean kill.


The point is the reason for the oft used quote about the 30-30 'killing more deer' is based on the fact it has been around so long. You could just as easily use my 'wounded more' deer as a factual statement for the same reason.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

watcher said:


> The point is the reason for the oft used quote about the 30-30 'killing more deer' is based on the fact it has been around so long. You could just as easily use my 'wounded more' deer as a factual statement for the same reason.


I brought that up because nowadays people seem to think you need a military grade-high cap weapon.....Remember in the Rev War,The War of Northern Aggression,the Indian Wars,etc-single shot and lever guns were used very effectively(that's all they had)Billy Dixon hit a Indian Chiefs horse at 1100yds at Adobe Wells with a 45/70....Carlos Hathcock hit a NVA general with a sternum shot at 1200 with basically a tuned hunting rifle with what we consider nowadays a crappy scope...It's the man,not the rifle.I carry a Guide Gun in 45/70 on my bigrig and feel totally protected.


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## gunseller (Feb 20, 2010)

I have not said anything before on this thread but have to ask a few questions. I did not know there were so many class III firearms owned by people on this site. An AK47 has full auto ability and is a classIII firearm. If you are meaning an AK47 style semiauto firearm say so. I have carried real AK47 firearms and I will take the M16A1 or an AR15 anyday over a real AK47. The M16/AR15 is more accurate, more effective with the correct bullets and more reliable than the real AK47. The Army is using FMJ ammo and yes the 7.62/308 round is more effective at long range then the 5.56 FMJ ammo. Did anyone of you know you can use a HP or SP ammo and make the 5.56 much more effective than a 7.62/308 FMJ round? And still do it at less cost than new 7.62/308 ammo. No matter how you want to say it the 30-30 is a better deer round than the 7.62x39. When the 30-30 came out into general use in 1895 it was used to shoot deer at 500 plus yards. It was considered a long range round. It shot flatter than the Black Powder rounds that were used before to shoot things at 500 plus yards. Know what you are saying before you say anything people will think more of you. Sorry if I just stepped on anyone's tender toes I just needed to say a few things. I will stop now before I get myself kicked off.
Steve


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

gunseller said:


> I have not said anything before on this thread but have to ask a few questions. I did not know there were so many class III firearms owned by people on this site. An AK47 has full auto ability and is a classIII firearm. If you are meaning an AK47 style semiauto firearm say so. I have carried real AK47 firearms and I will take the M16A1 or an AR15 anyday over a real AK47. The M16/AR15 is more accurate, more effective with the correct bullets and more reliable than the real AK47. The Army is using FMJ ammo and yes the 7.62/308 round is more effective at long range then the 5.56 FMJ ammo. Did anyone of you know you can use a HP or SP ammo and make the 5.56 much more effective than a 7.62/308 FMJ round? And still do it at less cost than new 7.62/308 ammo. No matter how you want to say it the 30-30 is a better deer round than the 7.62x39. When the 30-30 came out into general use in 1895 it was used to shoot deer at 500 plus yards. It was considered a long range round. It shot flatter than the Black Powder rounds that were used before to shoot things at 500 plus yards. Know what you are saying before you say anything people will think more of you. Sorry if I just stepped on anyone's tender toes I just needed to say a few things. I will stop now before I get myself kicked off.
> Steve


Of course I meant a semi-auto version of the AK-47. I believe everyone else here knew that without my having to say so. The norm is semi-auto version of military rifles as most people 1) Don't have a Class III license, 2) Can't afford a fully automatic weapon.

To be specific mine is a Romanian Wasr-10. I know that will be looked down upon by some here but frankly I don't really care. It has NEVER failed to fire or failed to eject. I run wolf, silver bear, brown bear, and some mystery brands of 7.62x39 through it and it shoots them all. Is it a MOA sniper rifle? Nope and it wasn't designed to be one. It was designed as a reliable, simple to operate, and simple to maintain, weapon capable of hitting a mansized target at normal combat ranges.

I would 100% agree with you that the M16/AR15 platform has the capability to be far more accurate than the AK47 platform. No question about it. But as for reliability I am sorry I simply can't agree with you. The M16 must be kept clean or it will foul and the desert sand has once again proven that fact. One of the positives for reliability of the AK47 is that its tolerances aren't as tight as the M16, it is also a minus because that is why it isn't as accurate as the M16. Life is about tradeoffs.

As for HP or SP rounds in an M16, I don't doubt that you can use them. I, exclusively for home defense, keep the mags of my WASR-10 loaded with hollow points. I do have FMJ rounds and usually use them for practice. I do have SP rounds too, and while I can fire them in my WASR-10, I tend to keep those for my CZ527. 

You didn't step on my toes. We all have experiences and opinions and that is what makes up a forum like this. Thanks for posting.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

With 15 years of carrying an AR in the Army, and more than 30 years owning several of my own, I have enough confidence in the AR to consider it trustworthy enough to do the job.:cowboy:


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## Hooligan (Jul 18, 2007)

Wasn't one of the reasons the military adopted the 5.56/.223 was because it would be more likely to wound rather than kill? Thus taking more then one enemy soldier out of the battle?

Something to consider in a self defense scenario. 

I have a pre ban Colt HBAR AR-15 that is darn accurate with irons but I think I would want a bigger projectile in a self defense situation.


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

FourDeuce said:


> With 15 years of carrying an AR in the Army, and more than 30 years owning several of my own, I have enough confidence in the AR to consider it trustworthy enough to do the job.:cowboy:


First, let me say thank you for your service. I realize that everyday the silly, stupid things I take for granted are because men like you protect our freedoms.

I would never argue your experience with the AR. Perhaps you are one whi is very meticulous about cleaning and maintaining your weapon. I don't know.

Funny thing is we always here reports of it being finicky in dirty, dusty, sandy, environments. There is no question that the M16 requires more maintenance and cleaning than the AK47. I have to smile when I see how many manufacturers are making ARs with the gas piston system now.

Is the M16/AR15 a good rifle? Of course it is. It has served the US since roughly 1965 in many incarnations. Is it controversial? Of course it is. But to me that is what makes it interesting. Hell, the Garand was controversial when it was first introduced.

I am sure at some point I will own an AR15. It seems almost inevitable!:happy2:


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

Jolly said:


> I think you mean #4 buck.
> 
> Different loads for different guns. Most shotguns will tell you what load of buck they like best. My old BPS is awfully partial to Federal #1 buck, 3" magnum.


you are correct,,,i was sitting here trying to figure out the correct notation and all i could come up with was 0000,,,thanks 

there is an old military/police study of use of shotguns packed with charts and studies . i was very suprised with the 00 being a luck hit at what i consider short distances (50 to almost useless at 75 yards).


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

While a pump shotgun is part of my self defense strategy it has a very specific use in my plans. Close up, inside the "perimeter," or inside the house, to dispatch bad guys. Even with slugs it would not be my first choice to 50 yards or more. There are many weapons better suited to that. Heck I think given the choice between my 10/22 and my shotgun past 50 yards I would take the 10/22 and try for multiple head and center mass shots.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

ace admirer said:


> there is an old military/police study of use of shotguns packed with charts and studies .


They packed the shells with charts and studies? No wonder they didn't work.


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

Ed Norman said:


> They packed the shells with charts and studies? No wonder they didn't work.


Now that is funny stuff!!:hysterical:


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## gunseller (Feb 20, 2010)

The returning troops I have spoken with like amd have had no problems with functing of M16 platform rifles. Run them wet and do not hang everything you can on them and they work fine. A friend of mine spent time training police in Iraq. While he was there the ploice received M4s. They were very happy to get rid of the AK47s. They had nothing but jams with the AK47s.
The 5.56 round was adopted as it was liter and troops could carry more ammo. It was also shown to do more damage to soft targets(people) than the 7.62 nato round. This was with the 55 grain FMJ bullets. The way it works is the bullet starts to tumble when it hits something. As the bullet tumbles it brakes at the canjure giving two fragments bouncing around in the target. The 62 grain bullet now being used was designed to go through Russian body armor. The use of a piston system is a fix to a non problem. It is a fade just like many like to run anything of U.S.A. design or manufactor down. If the piston and AK design is SO much better than the M16 platform why did Israel give up on their AK rifle and go with M16s? I do not buy the statement that the US just gives them M16s so do not try it. It is also my understanding that S.O.F. troops have dropped the piston driven rifles they had be trying. The first deer I ever shot with a high power rifle was shot at 300 meters with a M16 using a 55 grain FMJ. The deer dropped where it stood.
Steve


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

gunseller said:


> The returning troops I have spoken with like amd have had no problems with functing of M16 platform rifles. Run them wet and do not hang everything you can on them and they work fine. A friend of mine spent time training police in Iraq. While he was there the ploice received M4s. They were very happy to get rid of the AK47s. They had nothing but jams with the AK47s.
> 
> The 5.56 round was adopted as it was liter and troops could carry more ammo. It was also shown to do more damage to soft targets(people) than the 7.62 nato round. This was with the 55 grain FMJ bullets. The way it works is the bullet starts to tumble when it hits something. As the bullet tumbles it brakes at the canjure giving two fragments bouncing around in the target. The 62 grain bullet now being used was designed to go through Russian body armor. The use of a piston system is a fix to a non problem. It is a fade just like many like to run anything of U.S.A. design or manufactor down. If the piston and AK design is SO much better than the M16 platform why did Israel give up on their AK rifle and go with M16s? I do not buy the statement that the US just gives them M16s so do not try it. It is also my understanding that S.O.F. troops have dropped the piston driven rifles they had be trying. The first deer I ever shot with a high power rifle was shot at 300 meters with a M16 using a 55 grain FMJ. The deer dropped where it stood.
> Steve


I am not running anything down, merely quoting what I have been told and what I have read.

For my use the AK47 (WASR-10), or one of the AR platforms, would work just fine. The determining factor when I bought the WASR was cost plain and simple. I could have a functional, ready to go, WASR10 for $369, with ammunition that cost $3.99 to $4.99 for 20 rounds, and surplus eastern block mags for $12 a piece. At the time I bought the WASR the cheapest AR platform I could find was $799, with higher ammunition costs, as well as higher cost for magazines. 

As I have said I will most likely have an AR-15 eventually, and most likely an M4 semi-auto version because it can be "custom fit" to my wife's petite frame. Frankly, I still covet either the M1A or the Dragonov more but heck, it seems resistance to the AR is futile!

By the way, I have been told that in this area most poachers use .22LR for taking deer, head shots of course. But it does show that the shot placement, within practical usable range, is the key factor.

Have a great day!


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

i think as far as looking at what weapon our military has at the entry to any particular war or action,,,,,we are almost always caught somewhat wrong or at least with problems with a new weapon.

we had no sniper capability in entry to WWI, none in WWII, none in VIET. thank goodness that after viet we maintain some sniper capability....

So the ar was introduced to the viet. ....with instruction of not needing cleaning...big mess. it was probably the right rifle with the wrong bullet. short light but the bullet/rifle twist , did not do well in the foliage. Marines (which seem to always have a generation too old rifle in any war..GOD BLESS THEM) started out with the M14,,,,good bullet but way too long and heavy for jungle fighting....ok for open spaces but not an overly accurate rifle without tuning. 

we went into cities with the A2 M16, too long for room to room work so we introduced the M4 which is a great entry/street/room to room rifle. Now our troops are back into longer engagements so the M4 is not the perfect rifle for that. but because of short sight radius, not because it lacks accuracy. (thats the point i so crudely tried to point out, that the M4 in properly trained hands is capable of putting lead on target at long distances) but in not so well trained hands the longer sight radius of the A2 is again a benefit. we should probably go back to the A2. i don't think that will happen very rapidly. so improvised weapons may be pressed into service like every war before. in this case the M14 by what you fellows have told me. 

i love the M14 just as i love the Garand "Garr ann" but relative few have the training/practice to use it effectively, they are hard rifles to use effectively, the ar not so much...they are hard to keep tuned , the ar not so. the M40A3 stays tuned and is a great sniper with down range energy retention. its linage goes back to pre Viet.

this war like many has boiled down to asymmetrical. IED, some sniper, its not a squad fighting a squad. a guy walking around with an 11.2 lb M14+ammo is not a sniper, a guy static with a M40 is. the static guy is not going to use the M14 for accuracy/tuning problems...and obviously the guy walking around is not going to be carrying a M40. The battling is so random that our troops will not stay in top alert because its too much stress, unsustainable. so every once in a while they are caught off guard by a strike and recede force. but even that is seldom now. Its IEDâs and an occasion lone enemy with a rifle of some type and opportunity. Sometimes, very, very seldom an enemy âsquad â is surprised in an open environment and therefore must fight, but so very seldomâ¦ of course to the young man caught in battle,,,,,always wants more firepower than he has. We must never forget the position we have put them in. 

I know most of you have a passion for a certain rifle/platform for one reason or another. i just like rifles...in general..got more than any sane person should.....at present i'm coaching youth and my own kids in the sport of precision and "long distance" shooting which involves training/practice with military branches(they have the long distance ranges in the south east). Our kids are teamed up and have close ties to the mostly young military âlong range shootersâ and their coaches (older military personnel). When one of their coaches coaches my kids they listen,,but good,,,,and so do I. My knowledge (or lack of comes from these relationships) . Perhaps I have been told incorrect âwar storiesâ, but as I have been told so I have related in all my comments above. I coach use of 1903, 1903a3, 1903a4 various foreign military rifles, M1 Carbine, M1, M14, M1A1, A1, A2, A4, some M40. I see these rifles shot by this countries very best marksmen just about every weekend at places like Quantico, Jejune, Fort Benning, Camp Butner and Camp Perry. I see what tune of the rifle, wind, sunlight, exposure to heat, moisture, rain, snow, physique and condition (both mental and physical) of the shooter affects the thousands of rounds going down range. Whether this qualifies me to be believed or not , I guess that has to be answered by others. I have limited play money, so i have to investigate/study/look for the very best rifle to field my kids/teams with, else i embarrass them and myself. (and I will not embarrass the kids). So far the combination of my meager efforts and my teams excellent technique and skills gained through firing of many thousands of rounds each year has gained the teams and individuals I coach or help coach high national standings and in a dozen or so cases so far the Nationâs top standings. That is in the record booksâ¦ cannot be denied. Not bragging,,,,donât mean to, just facts in defense of myself and my comments in this threadâ¦.
Iâm sure I have aggravated some of you ,,,, sorryâ¦..But,,,,Iâm sure I will do it againâ¦â¦.sorry for that alsoâ¦

above all,,,fellows, have a good weekend...


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

ace admirer said:


> i think as far as looking at what weapon our military has at the entry to any particular war or action,,,,,we are almost always caught somewhat wrong or at least with problems with a new weapon.
> 
> we had no sniper capability in entry to WWI, none in WWII, none in VIET. thank goodness that after viet we maintain some sniper capability....
> 
> ...


I can't dispute your experiences, and I don't have a single bad word for your working with youth to help introduce them to and enjoy the shooting sports. In fact I applaud that.

My issue, and my post in response, that the moderators gave me a hard slap across the keyboard for, is with a preceived attitude and arrogance towards me that only you were right and hence I was wrong. Not so, we both have differeing experiences with rifles and requirements for their use. I have no need for a rifle that I can shoot the eyeball out of a fruit fly at 1000 yards with. I DO have a need for a reliable, hard hitting, semi-automatic rifle that at normal combat ranges will put its rounds into a man sized target, that I can also afford. The WASR-10 meets those requirements. As I have said there are other rifles I hope to own someday that will be more precision tools, but like most others money talks and the words aren't always what I want to hear!

Stay safe and you also have a great weekend!


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

gunseller said:


> I have not said anything before on this thread but have to ask a few questions. I did not know there were so many class III firearms owned by people on this site. An AK47 has full auto ability and is a classIII firearm. If you are meaning an AK47 style semiauto firearm say so. I have carried real AK47 firearms and I will take the M16A1 or an AR15 anyday over a real AK47. The M16/AR15 is more accurate, more effective with the correct bullets and more reliable than the real AK47. The Army is using FMJ ammo and yes the 7.62/308 round is more effective at long range then the 5.56 FMJ ammo. Did anyone of you know you can use a HP or SP ammo and make the 5.56 much more effective than a 7.62/308 FMJ round? And still do it at less cost than new 7.62/308 ammo. No matter how you want to say it the 30-30 is a better deer round than the 7.62x39. When the 30-30 came out into general use in 1895 it was used to shoot deer at 500 plus yards. It was considered a long range round. It shot flatter than the Black Powder rounds that were used before to shoot things at 500 plus yards. Know what you are saying before you say anything people will think more of you. Sorry if I just stepped on anyone's tender toes I just needed to say a few things. I will stop now before I get myself kicked off.
> Steve


1.Most of what you say may be correct-but ANYONE that says an AR is more reliable than an AK under combat conditions is spreading BULLFECES...had to be said..
2.I generally refer to non-FA AK's as Kalashnikovs or Klatchs in normal conversation.I'm a 1 finger typer so I use AK,but I as well as 99% of gun people on forums know what the difference is.
3.My nephews are respectively a Capt. and a 1st Lt that have done 7 combat tours between them in Iraq/Afghanistan-BOTH have given me overwhelming 1st hand reports of dumping 1/2 a M16 mag into enemy to STOP/kill them not just kill them and as they dying wounded/killing US personell-I will take their words and my own experiences about the effectiveness of 5.56 versus 7.62x51...


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

LeopardFrog said:


> Of course I meant a semi-auto version of the AK-47. I believe everyone else here knew that without my having to say so. The norm is semi-auto version of military rifles as most people 1) Don't have a Class III license, 2) Can't afford a fully automatic weapon.
> 
> To be specific mine is a Romanian Wasr-10. I know that will be looked down upon by some here but frankly I don't really care. It has NEVER failed to fire or failed to eject. I run wolf, silver bear, brown bear, and some mystery brands of 7.62x39 through it and it shoots them all. Is it a MOA sniper rifle? Nope and it wasn't designed to be one. It was designed as a reliable, simple to operate, and simple to maintain, weapon capable of hitting a mansized target at normal combat ranges.
> 
> ...


Gunseller, we cover this exact same topic probably every three months... the best weapon, which weapon for close defense needs, if you could have 'only one', best revolver, best semi auto...

I don't believe anyone's ever come out and said they had a Class III weapons... I know quite a few, including myself, have expressed a desire to own one, if it were not for artificial scarcity imposed by the ATF with banning further 'allowances'... only those 'grandfathered' in are allowed.

Pretty sure, when we speak of AK's and AR's, it's generally understood we're talking semi-auto's. Now if this were the AR15.com site, well those guys might have full autos. So, if someone says I have an AK, it's just a semi-auto (crippled) rifle. If someone does say they have some sort of 'automatic' weapon, someone usually will query them, 'specially if they haven't been around a while, to see if they really do have a full auto, or just using the 'auto' terminology, when in actuality have only semi auto's.

Personally, I'd love to have a full auto, but feeding the monster would be troublesome to the ol pocketbook. I've had the bumpfire attachments on .22lr's and that's cool enough for me.


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## Murray in ME (May 10, 2002)

gunseller said:


> Did anyone of you know you can use a HP or SP ammo and make the 5.56 much more effective than a 7.62/308 FMJ round?


I would guess that most of us know that. We also know that you can use HP or SP ammo in a 7.62/.308 and make it more effective than a 5.56/.223 with HP or SP ammo.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Well I have an AR and a SKS. It all boils down to what you can afford , prices of ammo and what you feel suits your needs. I like my AR past 200 yds. I even use a 55 grain in my 30.06 to deer hunt with and have for years.....


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## watcher (Sep 4, 2006)

I'll sum it up, the best self defense rifle is the one you have in your hands when you need it.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

gunseller said:


> The returning troops I have spoken with like amd have had no problems with functing of M16 platform rifles. Run them wet and do not hang everything you can on them and they work fine.
> 
> Steve


Agreed. I just got home tonight from doing a series of interviews of a BCT recently re-deployed from Afghanistan. We did several sessions with E5s and below. There were 20 something agencies there, everything from culture and language to reps from the Maneuver Center of Excellence (Benning), who BTW are responsible for small arms. The AAR was today and there were plenty of issues raised, but M16/M4 reliability wasnât one of them. Iâve gone through 3 BCTs returning in the past 4 months, and not a word about small arms reliability. It seems the troops have learned to deal with the maintenance requirements. 

Chuck


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

*Pistol Caliber Carbine,...ala CAS....[/B

Just a thought, here.........I like a Lever action pistol caliber carbine, for in the house use and out to about 50 to a hundred yards or so. A little .357 mag, .44 mag, or even a nice .45 Colt, Marlin, Winchester, or Rossi could be a handy thing to have.
I tried CAS. It was fun, but too expensive for this old man. Guns are fun, though.*


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

Old John said:


> *Pistol Caliber Carbine,...ala CAS....[/B
> 
> Just a thought, here.........I like a Lever action pistol caliber carbine, for in the house use and out to about 50 to a hundred yards or so. A little .357 mag, .44 mag, or even a nice .45 Colt, Marlin, Winchester, or Rossi could be a handy thing to have.
> I tried CAS. It was fun, but too expensive for this old man. Guns are fun, though.*


*


I have a .22lr old west style revolver and a Henry .22lr lever action rifle. It is an incredibly fun combination to shoot.

I wish someone would make a .45acp lever action rifle because if they did I would be first in line to buy one!*


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

LeopardFrog said:


> First, let me say thank you for your service. I realize that everyday the silly, stupid things I take for granted are because men like you protect our freedoms.
> 
> I would never argue your experience with the AR. Perhaps you are one whi is very meticulous about cleaning and maintaining your weapon. I don't know.
> 
> ...


Given the number of casualties the AR has piled up in its almost 50 years of use around the world, I'd say any anecdotal or second-hand opinions about its lack of power are questionable. Even people hit with a .50 cal don't always die instantly every time.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

I always wanted a pump rifle in 45 ACP with a tubular magazine.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

And for those who mock the power of a .22 long rifle round.........just ask and ER surgeon who has tried to patch all the organs inside of a person who has been shot with a .22

Apparently the round bounces around inside of the rib cage and makes the organs look like swiss cheese.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

LeopardFrog said:


> ...I wish someone would make a .45acp lever action rifle because if they did I would be first in line to buy one!





Ed Norman said:


> I always wanted a pump rifle in 45 ACP with a tubular magazine.


A .45 acp cartridge is rimless consequently it can only be fired in a recoil-operated semi-auto or a revolver using moonclips.

Hopefully, I'll be getting my "pistol caliber carbine" - in .45acp - soon!


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Cabin Fever said:


> A .45 acp cartridge is rimless consequently it can only be fired in a recoil-operated semi-auto or a revolver using moonclips.
> 
> Hopefully, I'll be getting my "pistol caliber carbine" - in .45acp - soon!


Huh? 

Have you seen the decades old designs of lever actions firing rimless rounds, or pump actions firing rimless rounds? Ever heard of the 22 HiPower and 250 and 300 Savage 99, the Browning BLR in a dozen rimless chamberings, the Remington Model 14 firing 25, 30, 32 and 35 Remington rimless cartridges? Yeah, you can make a rimless round work in many actions. The trick is to get a short 45 ACP round to feed in one of those actions.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Ed Norman said:


> Huh?
> 
> Have you seen the decades old designs of lever actions firing rimless rounds, or pump actions firing rimless rounds? Ever heard of the 22 HiPower and 250 and 300 Savage 99, the Browning BLR in a dozen rimless chamberings, the Remington Model 14 firing 25, 30, 32 and 35 Remington rimless cartridges? Yeah, you can make a rimless round work in many actions. The trick is to get a short 45 ACP round to feed in one of those actions.


It is my understanding that a cartridge that is rimless and has a straight non-shouldered casing cannot be extracted from the chamber by mechanical means.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Cabin Fever said:


> It is my understanding that a cartridge that is rimless and has a straight non-shouldered casing cannot be extracted from the chamber by mechanical means.


Then remove the extractor from your 1911 and see how well it works. 

Of course you can extract a straight rimless case with mechanical means. I've shortened Mauser actions to use 45 ACP and they work fine.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Well I stand corrected. I have no idea then why they don't make pump guns and lever actions that would use .45acp. It would be great if they did. I believe in keeping one's cartridge options to a minimum. ...things are less complicated that way and it makes it easier to buy in bulk. Consequently, we have 1911s, revolvers and soon an Thompson M1 rifle that will all use the .45acp.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

http://www.berettausa.com/products/cx4-storm/


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

It looks like a fun little carbine, but I always thought that long tubular mag loaded with lots of short 45 cartridges would make a handy skinny light package that doesn't excite anyone. But now those old pumps are getting too expensive to start chopping on.


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## LeopardFrog (Jun 3, 2011)

Jolly said:


> http://www.berettausa.com/products/cx4-storm/


I am aware of the cx-4, as well as the highpoint carbine in .45acp. In a semi-auto what I would really like is a Marlin Camp carbine. Uses 1911 magazines.

I still would like a .45acp lever gun though!


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

I have a little trouble with the term "self-defense rifle".

I see a rifle as an offensive weapon, primarily. One used to purposefully engage targets at the kind of distances that a person with a knife, pistol or scatter gun would be at a distinct disadvantage.

Self-defense weapons, to me, are weapons that are either easy to conceal or extremely effective at the kind of CQB that a person who is being defensive might find themselves in.

Having said all that, my rifles lean toward being most effective (relative to other weapons) and mid and longer range. If I have to deal with multiple moving targets at under 50 yards, I want my 7 shot 12 gauge with 00 or 000 magnum buckshot loads!

My rifles of choice (and I can have anything I want) are, generically, an M1A and a scoped bolt action....same caliber, same load (IMR 4895 to keep the port pressure correct for the M1A...not the "best" powder in my bolt gun, but perfectly adequate). That way I only have to stockpile one load (however my bolt gun's chamber is too tight to chamber cases fired in the M1A without a small base die...good thing to know!).


Tim

Edit: Forgot to mention: My M1A does have an optical sight on it...showing my bias toward mid to longer range use for any rifle. Not that I can't hip shoot that M1A pretty well!! Been doing it since the 70's (when I got paid to carry an M14...yes, there were Marines using M14s after 1975).


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Here is a great review/comparison of the AK-47 and the AR-15...

If you would like to see which one does what task better and why....

This video series pretty much breaks the subject all the way down and will provide all the information most people need.

<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XN-T_zeTdTM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/X9aA67Wi7TM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/GcWCkmocbLI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2hLh4J9ihy4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KQ9LDvikIEs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This will clear up most misconceptions about both rifles....


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