# Singleton Pup?



## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

I will start by saying that I have all health clearances, OFA, and also have MRI'ed my ***** before breeding. Her dam is a champion, her sire is a champion, and the stud is a champion. All are heart and eye cleared, as well as MRI'ed SM clear and over the age of 2. She is a CKCS.
My ***** was having trouble getting bred by the stud, because of a droopy vulva, (I think) so I attempted my first AI. She is also a bit bigger than your average *****. She is more the size of a dog of her breed. We are now 50+ days, and she is not showing any real weight gain, or belly. I did not think she took. However, last night she developed milk. So, since I don't think this is a false pregnancy, as I have seen them before, could this be a singleton, and I just cant feel the pup? Has anyone had experience with a ***** whelping who they did not think took? All of my bitches have had litters of 4-10 in the past. This is new to me.
Thanks
Christina


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I always take my bred bitches in to get x-rayed around day 55 or so. That should tell you if she is pregnant, and how many are in there.


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## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

Yes, I know an x-ray is an option. Thank you.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

chma4 said:


> Yes, I know an x-ray is an option. Thank you.


So since you know its an option, is there a reason you haven't done one yet? It would eliminate a lot of this guess-work.

FWIW I've seen false pregnancies with lots of milk produced, nesting, etc, and legit pregnancies where you couldn't even tell the ***** was pregnant. 

Whether she is producing milk, or you can palpate a puppy, isn't going to tell you anything. She could be having a false pregnancy, she could be carrying a singleton, or she could be preparing to drop a litter of 5 :shrug:


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## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

Thank you again, for your info. That is what I was looking for. You have had bitches whelp puppies without being able to tell by looking that the ***** was bred? I just did not think she took. She did not take her first breeding, which is very common in the breed. That is why I have not been in for an x-ray. 
Thanks again,
Christina


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## FoxyWench (Jan 22, 2010)

its quite normal in AI to have small litters especially if only 1 session is done...
and in larger breeds its not uncommon for a female to show no (to minimal) signs of pregnancy if shes holding a small litter.

i ALWAYS xray even if a falsey is expected because its good to have an idea of how many babies to expect...if the vet sees 5 skulls and you only get 1 pup you KNOW theres an issue. and confirm if it is a false pregnancy

xrays however are also not foolproof, i took my female in on day 57 for an xray to get a head count...the xray showed NOTHING, not a spine, not a skull, not even a shadow. vet swore blind she was having a very strong false pregnancy (or that my dates were WAY off...*rolls eyes*)
she delivered 5 beautiful helathy pups on her exact due date...
i made the vet refund me for the cost of the xrays...

but definatly have her palipated by the vet and an xray to hopefully get a head count...especially considering in very small litters in larger breeds theres often other concerns to think about too (like a very large puppy not passing through)

good luck with the litter


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## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

Thank you. She is a CKCS, so not a large breed. I plan to get the x ray done, but could not get in today. In the past, it has been obvious to me, bred/not bred. I thought maybe a few people in here could give me some hope with this one. I was hoping someone would have experience with this and tell me "Oh this one time...". I really want her to have a litter, I am on the brink of giving up on her as breeder. Seems sometimes like it is just not meant to be. 
Typically, the false pregnancies I have dealt with, the ***** bloats up at first, with all these symptoms and acts all out of whack until she finally goes through a false labor and delivery. This pregnancy there really has been no real symptoms until her milk came in last night. She would be right on time with the mammary development. She is active and vivacious and happy. I am hoping against hope that this is the real deal. I know what needs to be done, I was just hoping for some anecdotal evidence from all of you more experienced breeders out there. I have been breeding for 10 years, and never had a singleton...believe it or not, so I guess I am just feeling like it won't happen. I will take one healthy puppy any day! I was actually kinda day dreaming today about how nice it would be to just have 1 or 2 puppies...LOL
Christina


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

chma4 said:


> I really want her to have a litter, I am on the brink of giving up on her as breeder. Seems sometimes like it is just not meant to be. Christina


The decisions you make as a breeder are certainly yours to make....every breeder I know has a personal tolerance to certain things. A breeding I do might be one that another breeder wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole, and vice versa.

So I'm not trying to tell you how to run your breeding program, by any extent, when I say this: I have found that dams who are difficult to breed and have small litters pass this along to their daughters. On the flip side, dams that are great breeders also tend to pass this along to their daughters. 

I looked at a nice ***** pup from a good friend of mine last summer, and she was everything I need to improve upon in my lines....but ultimately I decided to take a pass on her, because her dam had been bred multiple times, missed multiple times, had one litter with a singleton, missed again several times, and finally had a litter of 4. I didn't want that kind of repro trouble introduced into my lines. Interstingly enough, this dam's grandmother was the same way, and (surprise!) so was the dam's dam. When they did produce, what they turned out was fantastic....I just don't want to deal with the (considerable) expenses of breeding and missing that many times just to produce one decent pup. 

I would have maybe considered a male pup, because difficulties with the dam's repro system IME don't affect the son's repro capabilities (although it does tend to show up here and there in HIS daughters!), but I don't need another male in my house!

Again, YMMV..... I wish you the best of luck with your *****!


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## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

Her mother is a fantastic *****. She didn't take the first breeding, the next she had six healthy(which my ***** came from), the second litter was six healthy , and the third litter was 10 (2 stillborn). The breed is known for 2-4 with high mortality.
My ***** was bred once before and didn't take, which has happened to pretty much every CKCS breeder I have talked to. So I was very hopeful with this second breeding, but they just couldn't seem to work it out, so I did an AI. Now I do have to take some credit for a small litter, as it was my first attempt at AI myself. 
I was really disappointed when she didn't seem to take, but was pleasantly surprised last night with the mammary development. If this is a false pregnancy, she will NOT be bred again. If she has healthy pup/pups, and is a good mom, she will be bred again. I agree, mothering is a very important trait to me as well. However, when you are dealing with a breed who is known for breeding difficulties, it is hard to throw away every ***** who doesn't take her first breeding. We would run out of bitches, and ultimately narrow the gene pool beyond repair, in case it isn't already. It just is what it is...
Does anyone care to share any positive experiences with singletons, or small litters? I could really use some positive feedback... 
Thanks
Christina


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

My breed is known for "missing" as well, and we swim in a shallow gene pool so we have to be selective about who we keep and who we spay/neuter. 

I wouldn't penalize a ***** for missing one breeding, but a history of missed breedings or small litters is a no-go for me, personally. Every heat cycle that we breed ends up costing me between $500 and $800 in vet bills, then if I've imported semen I have to pay stud fee ($1,000 to $1,300 depending on the dog) plus $500-$1,000 to have the semen shipped over. If the ***** misses I wouldn't have to pay another stud fee, but I'd still have to pony up the $500-$1,000 to get another dose of semen imported or the $300-$400 to have him collected and shipped domestically (even with studs from the US, I have to pay an average of $300-$400 in vet and shipping bills to have him collected and the extended semen shipped overnight to my vet). So when I've got over a grand invested in every breeding attempt, I'm not very forgiving.

Several friends of mine have had several singleton litters, and while they require a lot more dog-on-dog socialization as early as possible to learn the rules of being a dog, overall if you are diligent about giving them this they seem to turn out okay. Lots of small breed dogs regularly whelp only one pup. One of my fellow breeders has a small breed dog that she allows to play with the singleton pup once it is 3 weeks old, and he is a very effective playmate/nanny to the young one - I think that makes a big difference in the personality of the singleton pup.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

I've had singleton litters. I've also had litters with 3-5 pups where you couldn't tell the ***** was pregnant. I had one vet tell me my GSD wasn't pregnant 3 days before she whelped a litter of 6 big puppies, right on schedule.

I know people who have good luck palpating, but I've never been any good at it. So ultrasound or X-rays are the best way to confirm.

You have to be cautious about a singleton litter, because there is something called "forgotten puppy syndrome". Occasionally, with a singleton there isn't enough hormone response to trigger the actual birth process. It's not common, but not all that rare, either. I know several people who have had it happen.

I think that false pregnancy has a very distinctive look. If you've seen a lot of them, you can usually tell just by the way she looks. False pregnancy is common in Salukis, so I've seen a lot of them.

I think in CKCS, you worry a lot more about finding breeding stock with healthy hearts than about difficulty conceiving. Sometimes you can't work on every problem all at once. I also think that with the body type, it would be easier to hide a pregnancy. You know: they are already round, so what's a smidge more round? But I've also had a Scottish Deerhound that didn't show until just a couple of days before whelping and that was 6 pups.


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## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

Thank YOU!!!!
That is what I have wanted to hear. Yes, the hearts are the major concern with this breed. My ***** was screened A!!! It is important to me to breed her, but I am not going to extraordinary measures to do so. I am glad to hear it is possible for them to have pups in there, and not be able to tell by looking. I would think that the fact that she has lots of milk, makes me feel a little more at ease about her hormone levels. I have heard tell of bitches not having enough hormones to deliver a singleton, but the ***** definitely did not come into milk.
I am gonna go ahead and cross my fingers on this one. I would really like to think that my AI worked too. It is just good to know that the fact that she isn't showing does not rule out a healthy litter.
Thanks!
Christina


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

I had a ***** that had previously missed on 2 breedings. After the 3rd breeding she showed nothing at all so naturally I assumed it didn't take.

The night before she was "due" I had her on my lap and felt a puppy hit my hand - boy was I surprised. She went into labor the very next day and had one large puppy via c section. He was about 4 oz larger than most, yet still stayed 100% hidden in her ribs - she showed zero signs of being pregnant.

She went on to have tons of milk, and the puppy did great.


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## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

At what point did you realize she needed a C-section? Was it the x-ray, or did problems arise in labor and delivery? Thanks for sharing
Christina


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

You know, it took me two days to figure out that CKCS probably means Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. And that's only because there's been some discussion about their health problems lately.


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## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

Yes, Maura, it is Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. It is just such a long winded name. LOL


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

chma4 said:


> At what point did you realize she needed a C-section? Was it the x-ray, or did problems arise in labor and delivery? Thanks for sharing
> Christina


My breed always gets a section, so I just took her in as soon as she started contractions, which happened to be the very next day after feeling the puppy move.

There is always a higher risk of having a section with any breed if there is only one puppy in there, especially with smaller dogs. The pup can get so much larger being in there all alone. Some people will x ray and have the vet determine the size of the puppy vs pelvis size. A maiden ***** is another risk factor.

Good luck and keep us posted!


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

I can certainly understand what your going through. One ***** I have she was taken out to be bred, stud fee paid...false pregnancy and I swore she was pregnant, right down to nesting on the day she was due. I was going to try again but could not get an ovulation indicator on the FF last year, so assume she failed to ovulate. This season was her last shot. She flagged early...and sat and growled on mounting. Signs were wrong for breeding, so I let it go for a few days, swelling increased but not quite there, but male showing great interest. Decided to do an AI then, just in case as I had not been able to find my FF scope and did not want to miss her. A couple days later I found my scope...she was ferning,but flagging had stopped. Waited the number of days and bred AI one day before and one day after the target date (she was still refusing to be mounted), all the signs were right as well. That last day and 2 days after she was whiney, no appetite, drinking a lot. After that she settled back to her old self. Never seen her do that before, but hoping its a sign she took. If after 3 failed attempts a ***** won't take, I am done trying. Never gotten to that point before...normally they take the second time, until this gal. Yes, I could have used progesterone testing, but I feel if I have to go that far I am not sure this is something I want to continue with. Not saying I never would, but the circumstances would have to be special for me to do it- such as having semen shipped.
BTW I have had a couple singletons over the years...and no, I could not tell they were pregnant, but assumed they were since they were bred and milk came in and such. If I do think it could be one or 2 though, I will get an xray done. Tiny litter can cause labor not to get started or stall. With the false pregnancy...the ***** gained weight , had milk and I thought she had a decent sized litter. I took her in for an xray to find out why labor had not started....to find no pups.


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## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

Yes, my experience with falsies, was that symptoms are exaggerated, and all out of sorts. That is not the case here. If she does not deliver by Monday, she is scheduled for an x-ray.


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## longshadowfarms (Nov 27, 2002)

oregon woodsmok said:


> You have to be cautious about a singleton litter, because there is something called "forgotten puppy syndrome". Occasionally, with a singleton there isn't enough hormone response to trigger the actual birth process. It's not common, but not all that rare, either. I know several people who have had it happen.


This happened with a friend's dog that I was "babysitting" until the litter was born, but it almost didn't happen. Day 65 and I pushed her to go get an x-ray because I was convinced there was a pup in there. There was. Had to be taken by c-section but we got him. That was an AI pregnancy BTW. Dad was 12 and not up to natural breeding by that point but we badly wanted to use him.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

chma4 said:


> I will start by saying that I have all health clearances, OFA, and also have MRI'ed my ***** before breeding. Her dam is a champion, her sire is a champion, and the stud is a champion. All are heart and eye cleared, as well as MRI'ed SM clear and over the age of 2. She is a CKCS.
> My ***** was having trouble getting bred by the stud, because of a droopy vulva, (I think) so I attempted my first AI. She is also a bit bigger than your average *****. She is more the size of a dog of her breed. We are now 50+ days, and she is not showing any real weight gain, or belly. I did not think she took. However, last night she developed milk. So, since I don't think this is a false pregnancy, as I have seen them before, could this be a singleton, and I just cant feel the pup? Has anyone had experience with a ***** whelping who they did not think took? All of my bitches have had litters of 4-10 in the past. This is new to me.
> Thanks
> Christina


YES
I had a Tibby who I thought didn't take until the day that she whelped. The only way that I knew, was that she started to dig a bed.
The next time it was 3 days before she had 5 pups that she started to show.
some dogs just hide them.


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

Update? Did she have any puppies or did yuo get an xray?


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## chma4 (Feb 27, 2005)

Sadly, she did not have any puppies.  Xray showed nothing. She still has milk and has been licking the heck out of my other bitches muzzle. I think she has adopted her. She will be neutered and placed in a pet home. I am very upset. She is my very favorite.


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

I am so sorry. That really stinks! If she is your fav, why not spay and keep her anyhow?


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## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

I am sorry...that is a huge bummer.


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## KWoz (Dec 4, 2020)

bluemoonluck said:


> So since you know its an option, is there a reason you haven't done one yet? It would eliminate a lot of this guess-work.
> 
> FWIW I've seen false pregnancies with lots of milk produced, nesting, etc, and legit pregnancies where you couldn't even tell the *** was pregnant.
> 
> Whether she is producing milk, or you can palpate a puppy, isn't going to tell you anything. She could be having a false pregnancy, she could be carrying a singleton, or she could be preparing to drop a litter of 5 🤷


I am beyond disappointed and thinkg my kids and I must be crazy. My maltese tied successfully on the 10th and 13th day of her cycle. I didn't think she was pregnant by the looks of her compared to my mini goldendoodle I bred in the past. Friends who would see her after not seeing her for awhile would say she definitely gained weight. I built her a whelping box one week prior to estimated due date and she jumped in and primarily stayed there for this whole week. She would be due between Nov. 30th and Dec. 5th. I made a temperature chart and took her temp twice daily this past week and it stayed between 99.2-100.1 then 2 days ago dropped to 97.8, she started to produce milk, had a yellow/white discharge come out all over her behind and tail and was digging in her bed and after the temp drop she got real excited running around before jumping back into her box. Checked her temp that evening and it was 101.1. I thought "this is finally gonna happen". But besides shivering a bit and her stomach tensing up there was nothing. I took her to the vet once 24 hours passed from the temp drop and they took one x ray of her laying on her right side and told me it was a false pregnancy. My heart dropped. I feel crazy after we all felt movement etc. Is it possible the x ray missed a pup high in the ribcage? A singleton possibly? She still wants to be in her whelping box but is under no distress at all. I have exhausted Google search and would appreciate any insight on this. This was to be her first and only pregnancy and she's 3 years old.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

It would be better if you started your own thread instead of hitchhiking on a 9 year old thread. A lot of members look at the original post date and don't go on to see the latest.

Is it possible she delivered a stillborn pup and ate it? Do you have the copy of the x-ray that you can post a picture of so those who are familiar with dog anatomy could give their opinion?


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## KWoz (Dec 4, 2020)

Danaus29 said:


> It would be better if you started your own thread instead of hitchhiking on a 9 year old thread. A lot of members look at the original post date and don't go on to see the latest.
> 
> Is it possible she delivered a stillborn pup and ate it? Do you have the copy of the x-ray that you can post a picture of so those who are familiar with dog anatomy could give their opinion?


I apologize I've never used a community page like this before. She hasn't been out of my site. I walked her outside so I don't believe there was a stillborn. I'll attach the xray. Thank you for responding


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

That's ok. We have been complaining about the ability to resurrect zombies for a while. Welcome to the forum.

While I am certainly not a radiologist, I don't see anything that looks like a possible lost pup. The spine would look like a row of white dots, like a string of pearls. Your vet might be right, false pregnancy. It happens. I hope your girl is ok.

Are you planning to breed her again if she goes through another heat cycle?


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

KWoz said:


> I apologize I've never used a community page like this before. She hasn't been out of my site. I walked her outside so I don't believe there was a stillborn. I'll attach the xray. Thank you for responding


Agree no pups. Is this moms first time breeding? What breed ?How many lockings did she and mate have? Yes dogs eat after births very fast and yes eat dead pups. Its natural for dogs to clean up the area in the wild as well as in a birthing box fast too
Could not find your new post. This posting was very old. Sorry old guys if i missed something and posted on am old thread. Having pups here so it cought my eye


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## KWoz (Dec 4, 2020)

Danaus29 said:


> That's ok. We have been complaining about the ability to resurrect zombies for a while. Welcome to the forum.
> 
> While I am certainly not a radiologist, I don't see anything that looks like a possible lost pup. The spine would look like a row of white dots, like a string of pearls. Your vet might be right, false pregnancy. It happens. I hope your girl is ok.
> 
> Are you planning to breed her again if she goes through another heat cycle?


Not if she could possibly go through this again. The kids and I were extremely disappointed and im sure she is quite confused herself.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Forcast, you didn't miss it. It was #26 in this thread.


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## KWoz (Dec 4, 2020)

Forcast said:


> Agree no pups. Is this moms first time breeding? What breed ?How many lockings did she and mate have? Yes dogs eat after births very fast and yes eat dead pups. Its natural for dogs to clean up the area in the wild as well as in a birthing box fast too
> Could not find your new post. This posting was very old. Sorry old guys if i missed something and posted on am old thread. Having pups here so it cought my eye


She tied twice. It was her first time. Her belly never looked pregnant to me. Of I change my mind and do this again I will make sure to get other tests done to know her exact ovulation etc. and not get my hopes so high until I have solid proof. Im a single mom and spent a lot of time making her whelping box. Im going to attach the one picture of whatever it was I was feeling thinking it was a puppy


Forcast said:


> Agree no pups. Is this moms first time breeding? What breed ?How many lockings did she and mate have? Yes dogs eat after births very fast and yes eat dead pups. Its natural for dogs to clean up the area in the wild as well as in a birthing box fast too
> Could not find your new post. This posting was very old. Sorry old guys if i missed something and posted on am old thread. Having pups here so it cought my eye


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