# Changing To Off Grid?



## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Ok what would your first changes be?

What would you say draws most power? I was thinking Refridgerator,Freezer and A/C.Would you change the Refridgerator and Freezer over to Gas? A/C I'm not sure what to do on it,I need it because of Health reasons.

On my Water Pump I was thinking Air Pressure to Pump it using Gas to run Compressor to build up pressure in a Large Tank that should pump water all day.

Would you go with Wind or Solar to start out with?I could go Hydro but would have to run Lines a Thousand Foot from the spring.

Me and my wife have been kicking it around the last couple days.What I came up with first was running Lights,Refridgerator,Cook Stove and Water Heater off Gas.But like my wife said I would be better off with at least the Lights running off Solar.Thought about Wood Cook Stove because we have plenty of wood on hand but we have to have Gas considering Hot as it gets in warmer months.

I know lot of questions I could answer going through and frinding out Just wanting ideas where to start to build from and I'm sure I will get several different ideas.

Thanks in advance.

big rockpile


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## damoc (Jul 14, 2007)

can you combine your water supply with a hydro power setup
do you have enough flow for a decent power supply?

first thing i did was change out lights, change range to gas and change
heat and hot water to wood and solar for the hot water.

solar is probably easier to go with first but if you have decent water flow
i would be looking very closely at the hydro


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

damoc said:


> can you combine your water supply with a hydro power setup
> do you have enough flow for a decent power supply?
> 
> first thing i did was change out lights, change range to gas and change
> ...


Hydro wouldn't work with my water supply.The spring has a steady year round flow,ofcourse sometimes more than others.Like this time of year is slow as it can be.

As far as you changing out Lights did you go to Solar?Plus I was thinking with Lights of going with 12V bypassing the Inverter would be cheapest and easyest.But my wife said that going with Low watage on the Lights and just going with the Inverter might be the best way 

Solar would be very easy durring the Summer by just running Lines on my Metal Roof to provide enough Hot water.My worry with this simple setup would be getting a Hole in it and water running for several hours before me catching it.Another way is a Black Tank running Cold in Hot out but I was thinking more Solid Line if this makes sence.Then ofcourse Coil around from Wood Heat.But I'm thinking with either system have it running into a Gas Hot water Heater to where really the Hot Water Heater is Backup.

Also I'm sure I will find this as I go but how hard is it wiring from Inverter into my Breaker Box? My wife does most the Wiring and she says she don't think it would be that hard.Or would I even want to?

I heat maily with wood.But to the Back of the House it gets colder and I've been using a Small Gas Heater back there but there is a Room just off the Kitchen where it would be easy to put a Wood Cook Stove in there,this way I figure I can heat for 6 months back there using the Cook Stove.

big rockpile


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## Ozarka (Apr 15, 2007)

_Also I'm sure I will find this as I go but how hard is it wiring from Inverter into my Breaker Box? My wife does most the Wiring and she says she don't think it would be that hard.Or would I even want to?_

You will need a transfer switch, the alt. energy type with relays, rather than the conventional double throw type. That way, the breaker panel either gets its juice from the inverter OR the grid. You might consider hiring a licensed electrician for this part.


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## damoc (Jul 14, 2007)

you would probably be better talking to an electrician about this
and what is to code in your area.

but i went solar and it made much more sense just to wire in with inverters
to the original wiring.

also i had all mains wiring removed so i am totally off grid which made things
a little less complicated as far as transfer switches. and not needing a meter.

my hot water heater was on the southern wall of the house so that was a simple matter to plumb in the solar hot water with wood backup i am still
working on the solar hot water it works well but looks like a bit of a mess
and can work much better.hot water storage is using the original electric
hot water system tank (which is still functional) 

this is still "experimental"but functional and can be removed totally in about
10 minutes if i ever need to 

i did not want to post this as i was worried i would get to many lectures
about the wood heater


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Well we don't have any Electricians around this area.My wife did all the wiring here.Probably be completly Off Grid when we get through.

big rockpile


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

damoc said:


> you would probably be better talking to an electrician about this
> and what is to code in your area.
> 
> but i went solar and it made much more sense just to wire in with inverters
> ...


Hi,
Looks like your solar water heating collector would benefit from some fins on the riser tubes. Easy to do:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/CopperAlumCollector/CopperAlumCol.htm

I think this would greatly increase the hot water output.

Gary


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## damoc (Jul 14, 2007)

yes it would but i ran out of scrap copper so am waiting to pick up a little more from somewhere and i did not want to use anything but copper

see the fins at the bottom do you think they will be large enough?
the unit is working well even as is but it is the middle of summer
and i know later in the year the ineficiencies of it at the moment
will shut it down.

thanks gary i have had a look at that before


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## poorboy (Apr 15, 2006)

hey BR whats the topography like around yer home is it on top of a hill? flat?


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

Central air conditioning isn't an option for an off-grid home unless you have more money than you know what to do with, in which case you just call up a solar installer and tell them the sky's the limit, and spend $100k on a system. We find that the largest load at our place is the furnace fan in the winter, followed by the refrigerator and freezers. Central A/C would double or triple the load. Cheaper to move to a livable climate, perhaps. A real efficient window A/C unit might be doable, if you could live with that. It would be working hardest when the sun was shining, but would also use a lot of power at night from the batteries. Wind would be worth considering if you had a good (high) average annual windspeed.


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

damoc said:


> yes it would but i ran out of scrap copper so am waiting to pick up a little more from somewhere and i did not want to use anything but copper
> 
> see the fins at the bottom do you think they will be large enough?
> the unit is working well even as is but it is the middle of summer
> ...


Hi,
The fins really should run half way to the next tube -- that is, when you look at the collector from the front, you should see nothing but fin. 
The idea being that the sun energy gets absorbed by the fin, and the fin (being highly conductive) transfers the heat along the fin to the tube.
I think it will make a big difference in performance.

My 2 cents on using aluminum fins is that its OK as long as the aluminum is painted, and you use silicone between the fin and the copper. If the groove in the aluminum for the copper tube fits the tube tightly, the silicone helps the heat transfer (its 10x more conductive than air), and it also keeps any condensation that may form in the collector from getting the copper/aluminium interface.
There are commercial collector out there that use aluminum fins and copper tubes -- www.sunraysolar.com -- they have been around a long time, and I've looked or and not seen any reports of corrosion. The Maine Solar Energy Association has had workshops to make a similar collector for years, and again no reports of corrosion that I can find.

Unless you solder the fin to the tube, the fin needs to have a groove in it that wraps as much of the tube as possible.

Gary


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

damoc said:


> yes it would but i ran out of scrap copper so am waiting to pick up a little more from somewhere and i did not want to use anything but copper
> 
> see the fins at the bottom do you think they will be large enough?
> the unit is working well even as is but it is the middle of summer
> ...


 Good job on the collector...I noticed the tubes were notched into 2x4s... looks like an inch or two of gap between the tubes and the reflector... seems you could increase the heat collection by putting the risers in contact with the reflector, and painting them all black.Just my 2 cents... My own solar hot water project is sidetracked for this year...got bogged down with complications... installing aTakagi tankless this week....hopefully solar next spring!


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

damoc said:


> yes it would but i ran out of scrap copper so am waiting to pick up a little more from somewhere and i did not want to use anything but copper
> 
> see the fins at the bottom do you think they will be large enough?
> the unit is working well even as is but it is the middle of summer
> ...


 And youre using wood as a backup...I did that last year also, basically 50ft of 1/2 copper coil wrapped around the 6" flue pipe, thermosyphoning into a 50gallon water tank. Works great!


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

WisJim said:


> Central air conditioning isn't an option for an off-grid home unless you have more money than you know what to do with, in which case you just call up a solar installer and tell them the sky's the limit, and spend $100k on a system. We find that the largest load at our place is the furnace fan in the winter, followed by the refrigerator and freezers. Central A/C would double or triple the load. Cheaper to move to a livable climate, perhaps. A real efficient window A/C unit might be doable, if you could live with that. It would be working hardest when the sun was shining, but would also use a lot of power at night from the batteries. Wind would be worth considering if you had a good (high) average annual windspeed.


 I'm in a similar climate to Big Rockpiles, hot and humid in the summer. With 1.1KW of solar, I'm having no trouble running a small window unit AC during the hottest part of the day. Enough to drop the indoor air temp a few degrees and knock some of the humidity out of the air. Has made a huge difference in our comfort level.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Ok I misunderstood my wife.I asked her what our average Electric Bill was? She said $110 a month.Well I asked her again making clear average.Come to find out our average Electric Bill is $75 a month.The $110 a month was while we run the A/C.

Ok with this Low of a Bill would it be worth it time and Dollars switching over anything?

big rockpile


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

big rockpile said:


> Ok I misunderstood my wife.I asked her what our average Electric Bill was? She said $110 a month.Well I asked her again making clear average.Come to find out our average Electric Bill is $75 a month.The $110 a month was while we run the A/C.
> 
> Ok with this Low of a Bill would it be worth it time and Dollars switching over anything?
> 
> big rockpile


Heck yes it would! Just changing out to a modern freezer and refer will save you a lot.They have hugely improved in just last couple years,Energy Star appliances are amazing in reducing power use.And NOT prohibitively expensive either.

I changed the lights in my ceiling fan from 4 100watt bulbs,to 4 26watt CFL's with zero loss in light output,thats almost a 300 watt savings,nothing to sneeze at at all!

I havent checked out thee efficiency of new newer AC units,anyone know how they have been doing on reducing power usage?

Reducing power use is easy,and very cost efficient IMO.Cheapest bang for your buck IMO by far.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

The dollar amount of your electric bill is almost meaningless if we don't know either your kilowatt hour rate or the actual kilowatts used per month. Around here a $75 a month electric bill is probably average, although ours is usually $10 to $20. Check the actual usage of your plug in appliances and other plug in items with a Kill-a-Watt meter or similar meter and compare that with newer appliances.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

If you are connected to the grid, and currently using $75 to $110 worth of grid electricity, it would take probably $12,000 to $20,000 to go fully off-grid and maintain your current level of use. It isnt cheap. 
As BooBoo stated, upgrading to more efficient appliances is probably the best way to go. What would your motivation be for going 'off-grid'? In my case, I wanted to build a small house on a remote piece of ground, bringing in grid power would have been very expensive, and then I'd still have a monthly power bill to look forward to. In your case, it sounds like you already have the grid run right to your house. Dont overlook the convienience of that situation!


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

I agree. Once connected to the grid, there is no advantage to off-grid. If those on the grid used as much electricity as those off the grid, their monthly bills would be next to nothing. Grid electricity is, by far, the cheapest form of electricity. With that said, it always makes sense to conserve electricity, regardless of where it comes from.

Off grid sometimes does have huge economic benefits when you're purchasing and paying taxs on property. Often, land without nearby electric is substantially cheaper than land with electric nearby - taxs are similar as land without electric is often taxed extremely low, and that is a lifetime of payments. Obviously, costs/taxs vary by location. To really enjoy the advantages of "off-grid", you almost have to start at the beginning, i.e. before you purchase the land and build structures.



greg273 said:


> If you are connected to the grid, and currently using $75 to $110 worth of grid electricity, it would take probably $12,000 to $20,000 to go fully off-grid and maintain your current level of use. It isnt cheap.
> As BooBoo stated, upgrading to more efficient appliances is probably the best way to go. What would your motivation be for going 'off-grid'? In my case, I wanted to build a small house on a remote piece of ground, bringing in grid power would have been very expensive, and then I'd still have a monthly power bill to look forward to. In your case, it sounds like you already have the grid run right to your house. Dont overlook the convienience of that situation!


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