# Need Advise and suggestions



## Marsh (Apr 29, 2003)

I know I have posted here before and always gotten good solid advise. So here goes. 
We send DD to public school but we supplement with homeschooling. And some things we just homeschool because school doesn't teach it. 
We moved in November to another state and it has been quite a change for us. DD no longer gets grades and papers no longer come home. Everything is kept in school and receives a check, check plus, or check minus. The report card reads with something like..."understands the standard sometimes, most of the time, exceeds the standard, etc. Before we had grades from the old school. Well as you know I have felt for 2 years now that DD was not up to par with Math. Very far behind! The state/national test at the old school said in 3rd grade she was at a second grade fifth month level and she was almost three quarters the way through 3rd grade. The school said she was doing fine! I faught them on this. This year in 4th, at the old school. I was told that she was fine! Again I faught it. When we moved I warned the teacher she was behind in MATH. 
Well DD is in 4th grade here in this state but her teacher has her doing 5th grade speling and vocabulary work because she is so far ahead and gets bored because that work is easy. Recently teacher sent me a note saying DD would not pass her state standard test and that on her report card not to be surprised at her level. I told him I wasn't surprised at all! I knew all this but NOONE wanted to listen to me. He has been sending home extra papers for her to work on and they seem too easy for DD but it where he says she is lacking skills. 
Well our dilema is she has trouble with addition and subtraction, word problems and which operation to use. Now they are doing multiplication and division and fractions. How on earth can my DD keep up if she's so far behind? Now mind you she does ok with me at home homeschooling math. 
I know she has big MATH issues but dont know where to start. I asked DH what do we do if they want to keep her back in school, with Math so far behind, spelling and vocab so far ahead and the fact she is 10 and 5 feet tall. He said we will just keep her home and homeschool her if that is the case. We feel the public system can't really handle her abilities anymore. That far a range in subject matter seems like she will be lost. 
Any ideas, suggestions, advise? I am not fond of the public system but DD is very shy and has no friends. Even the groups we get her into she just doesn't fit in with. DD is a definite learner, just soetimes it has to be what she wants to learn. I.E. drop spindling, crocheting, sewing, stuffed animals, writting and all kinds of art media. 

Thanks for any advise 
Marsh


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## RockyGlen (Jan 19, 2007)

Marsh said:


> Well our dilema is she has trouble with addition and subtraction, word problems and which operation to use. Now they are doing multiplication and division and fractions. How on earth can my DD keep up if she's so far behind? Now mind you she does ok with me at home homeschooling math.


The short answer is - she can't keep up. If a child doesn't have the basic building block foundations, there is no way they can learn the more complicated things that are based on those simple functions. It would be like expecting her to read without knowing her ABC's.


If you want to keep her in PS, I think it is essential for her to be held back until she knows that foundation. The problem with that is that the PS is not set up to accomodate a child in 3rd grade math but 6th grade reading.

If you are willing to homeschool her, you could put her in each subject at the level that she is at. For friends and socialization, join a homeschool group, church youth group, library book club, even sewing classes. 

The purpose of school is not socialization, anyway - but to educate, so you need to ask yourself if her educational needs are better met by school or you.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

on Rocky Glen's post.
She is showing you now that she can't keep up. The school is showing you that they can't address her special needs. Do you think the situation is going to get better? I agree with your DH -bring her home and let her learn at her own pace. Join a homeschool group and let her socialize on a more limited basis rather than all day long every day. Try a 4H club or even a dance or gymnastic group. I think it is much easier for kids to socialize with a smaller group anyway.


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## cindy-e (Feb 14, 2008)

I do not think everyone should home school. That is not my "stock answer." But I agree with Rocky Glen on this one. You are ALREADY homeschooling her, and your reasons for considering the change are sound. The school is not equipped to meet her particular needs. 

If you can find it, there is a little game you can get that helps the facts "stick". It is called "Math it." I think it is out of print, but I have used it with all of my kids and it makes the facts fun. My children are all pretty good at the facts because of this game.  

Also, mathematical word problems are LANGUAGE problems. Teach her the language of math. That is the way to present math to a language oriented child. Teach her that "less than" means subtraction and "altogether" means addition. She is having trouble with the terms. My kids compete in math competitons, and this is one of the things they are required to memorize... What operation does this term signify? It is pretty much that simple. She doesn't have to be at all intuitive about math to "get" that part of it. She just have to know that "this word means multiplication." That will be a good start. 

Good luck,
Cindyc.


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## Marsh (Apr 29, 2003)

I knew if i asked here you all would give me good advise. You even "hit the nail on the head" for a few things about DD. 

The short answer is - she can't keep up. If a child doesn't have the basic building block foundations, there is no way they can learn the more complicated things that are based on those simple functions. It would be like expecting her to read without knowing her ABC's.
This is exactly what we are seeing and the basics are no sticking with her.
The problem with that is that the PS is not set up to accomodate a child in 3rd grade math but 6th grade reading. The purpose of school is not socialization, anyway - but to educate, so you need to ask yourself if her educational needs are better met by school or you.  
Exactly our thoughts and why I question what action we should take with her.

 Join a homeschool group and let her socialize on a more limited basis rather than all day long every day. Try a 4H club or even a dance or gymnastic group. I think it is much easier for kids to socialize with a smaller group anyway.  
DD is better in small groups and if she is one of the first ones there. If too many children are there already she almost throws up and stays very shy for many hours. It takes her MUCH longer to warm up to a room full of kids than if there are only a few. We can't find a 4-H group for her to join becuase of her age and the fact she raises rabbits and there are no rabbit groups in this area. SO currently she is a individual member of 4-H and I am the advisor for her. She has joined a Karate class and the first lesson was with a very small group and she loved it. But the next lesson is today and it should be a larger group and we will see how it goes. But socialization is much easier for her in small groups.
Also, mathematical word problems are LANGUAGE problems. Teach her the language of math. That is the way to present math to a language oriented child.
BINGO!!!! SHe is very language orientated. You have hit on something I hadn't even thought about. How do you go about teaching her the language? Just teaching her the terminology? I am sure this would help in the word problem department. But how do you teach the basics to a language orientated child? SHe still very much uses her fingers to do addition and she also doesn't understand place value. You can go over and over it a hundred times and by the next day she seems to have forgotten it all. I know if you don't understand place value that pretty much makes Math impossible. If you don't understand that you take a 1 from the tens place and put it on the ones side you now have 10+ in the ones column. DD thinks it adds just 1 not 10. because you are only moving the number 1. Does that make any sense?

Keep the response coming you are helping immensly. Not just in skills but in supporting a possible solution. I just want to make the right choice for DD. 

Marsh


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## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

Marsh said:


> I am not fond of the public system but DD is very shy and has no friends. Even the groups we get her into she just doesn't fit in with. DD is a definite learner, just soetimes it has to be what she wants to learn. I.E. drop spindling, crocheting, sewing, stuffed animals, writting and all kinds of art media.
> 
> Thanks for any advise
> Marsh


Having no friends in public school is a good thing in my book. I don't want my kids learning what many other kids have to teach. Kids are over categorized in schools, your daughter being far "ahead" in some subjects and "behind" in others, will often make her self conscious and even more likely to feel as if she doesn't fit in because everyone else knows her strengths and weakness, too. Making a normally shy child even more so (ask me how I know :bouncy.

As a homeschooled child (and you seem to be leaning this way already) her friends will not be award of her academic strengths and weaknesses, and will not use those to judge who she is as a person. Homeschoolers often meet in smaller groups. It's often easily to "import" a few kids to play with as our schedules are more relaxed.

"Defiant learner" that's a great definition of my son! I personally haven't found much that works to motivate him regularly, but I do remind him that life isn't about doing what you want. How much of DH's job does he do because he "enjoys" it? Does he really think his Daddy likes being gone from 7 am to 7:30-9pm every night. Does DS think I like cleaning the toilets, cooking food when I'm not hungry, washing clothes I didn't wear, etc. The faster he gets motivated the longer he will have to do X Y Z. Does this work?? Some days. We do try to incorporate his interests in what we are learning. 

Have you heard of Prairie Primmer? It's curriculum (unit study) that uses the Little House books. You may be able to use it to work in many of the items on that list of likes your daughter into her schoolwork.


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## cindy-e (Feb 14, 2008)

Marsh said:


> BINGO!!!! SHe is very language orientated. You have hit on something I hadn't even thought about. How do you go about teaching her the language? Just teaching her the terminology? I am sure this would help in the word problem department. But how do you teach the basics to a language orientated child? SHe still very much uses her fingers to do addition and she also doesn't understand place value. You can go over and over it a hundred times and by the next day she seems to have forgotten it all. I know if you don't understand place value that pretty much makes Math impossible. If you don't understand that you take a 1 from the tens place and put it on the ones side you now have 10+ in the ones column. DD thinks it adds just 1 not 10. because you are only moving the number 1. Does that make any sense?
> 
> Marsh


OK, I still strongly recommend Math it to teach the facts. If you can't find it, you can use one of those tapes that teaches the facts through music. She will "memorize" the words of the song, since it is language, and she will know her facts by default. That will do for now. 
I use a story-board to teach place value. Unfortunately I am not sure I can explain it... On the board I draw a house with 3 rooms. As you look at the "house", the room on the right is the ones rooms. The middle one is the tens room, and the left one is the hundreds room. Then you use paper squares and strips of varying sizes to represent the ones, the 10s, and the hundreds. If you want it to be completely accurate, mark out how many ones are in each ten (ten one squares) and how many tens are in a hundred (ten-tens strips) so that you are representing the EXACT relationship between the numbers. Then you tell her that 9 is a magic number. ONLY 9 of anything can live in each room. Once you have more than 9 ones, they magically become a 10 and have to move to the next room. Let her practice making numbers with the strips. (15 would be one 10 strip and 5 one squares.) Then you can let her use the manipulatives to do borrowing. Let her physically allow a ten to visit the one's house in order to complete the math problem. 

As far as the word problems go, YES! Teach her the terminology. I have it here. I will go run it down for you and post it in another post. She will know what to do because she knows what the words mean.

Those things should be a good start.

Good luck!
CIndyc.


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## cindy-e (Feb 14, 2008)

*I am sorry that this is so long, but I am trying to give a good and thourough answer to your question since it is so important. 

These are the math words that apply to fourth grade. Have her look up any of them that apply, since she is language oriented, and then talk her through how to use the ones you think she is struggling with. They should be in a glossary in the back of her math book.

For geometry concepts, teach her the formulas. 
Hope this helps...*
The 4th grade list​Acute angle, acute triangle, addend, angle, area, associative property, average, base of a geometric shape, borrowing or exchanging or regrouping, capacity, century, chance or probability, chronological order, circumference, clockwise and counter clockwise, common denominators, common year, commutative property, cone, congruent, coordinate, counting numbers, cube, cubic unit, cylinder, data, decade, decagon, decimal number, decimal places, decimal point, degrees in both angles and temperature, denominator, diameter, difference, digit, distributive property, dividend, division, divisor, dozen, edge, elapsed time, endpoints, equals, equation, equilateral triangle, equivalent fraction, estimate, evaluate, even numbers, expanded form, exponent, exponential expression, expression, face, fact family, factor, Fahrenheit, formula, fraction, geometric solid, geometry, graph, greater than, hexagon, horizontal, identity property, improper fraction, intersect, isoscelese triangle, least common denominator, legend, less than, line, line graph, line of symmetry, line segment, lowest terms, mean, median, metric system, midnight, mixed number, mode, multiple, multiplication, negative numbers, noon, number line, number sentence, numeral, numerator, oblique, obtuse angle, obtuse triangle, octagon, odd numbers, ordinal numbers, outlier, parallel lines, parallelogram, pentagon, percent, perfect square, perimeter, perpendicular lines, pictograph, pie graph, place value, p.m. point, polygon, population, positive number, product, property of zero, pyramid, quadrilateral, quotient, radius, range, rate, ray rectangle, reduce, reflection, regular polygon, remainder, rhombus, right angle, right triangle, Roman numerals, rotation, sales tax, sample, scale, scalene triangle, sector, segment, sequence, side, similar, solid, sphere, square, square number, square root, square unit, straight angle, subtraction, sum, survey, symmetry, table, tally mark, tessellation, transformation, translation, trapezoid, triangle, unit, U.S. customary system, vertex, vertical volume, whole numbers. 

*OK so you can see how for a LANGUAGE oriented child, if enough time is not given to just defining TERMS, they will have NO idea what a word problem MEANS! Math brained people can see the numbers, skim the problem and just sort of know what to do. That baffles me. I have seen my son come up with the right answer to a problem he really didn't read and have no idea HOW he got it over and over again. My language oriented daughter has to be told what each word means. SUM, ALTOGETHER, DIFFERENCE, DIVIDEND, FACTOR... they tell you what to do! It is a mistake with language oriented kids to skip over the words to just look at how the numbers behave. They won't get it. There will be people who totally disagree with me on this. My language oriented daughter, though, also competes on math competition teams and does pretty well, so it has worked for us. That is all I can say. To do math you must know what the words mean, just as you must know what the words mean in english to have a conversation. There is another list I am still trying to find specific to word problems. If I run it down, I will post it for you. Hope this helps...*

Again, good luck. 

Cindyc.


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## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

cindy-e said:


> I use a story-board to teach place value. Unfortunately I am not sure I can explain it... On the board I draw a house with 3 rooms. As you look at the "house", the room on the right is the ones rooms. The middle one is the tens room, and the left one is the hundreds room. Then you use paper squares and strips of varying sizes to represent the ones, the 10s, and the hundreds. If you want it to be completely accurate, mark out how many ones are in each ten (ten one squares) and how many tens are in a hundred (ten-tens strips) so that you are representing the EXACT relationship between the numbers. Then you tell her that 9 is a magic number. ONLY 9 of anything can live in each room. Once you have more than 9 ones, they magically become a 10 and have to move to the next room. Let her practice making numbers with the strips. (15 would be one 10 strip and 5 one squares.) Then you can let her use the manipulatives to do borrowing. Let her physically allow a ten to visit the one's house in order to complete the math problem.


There are also blocks you can use (base ten blocks for example) to teach the same way the paper squares work. They are pricey to buy but there were some on our local freecycle not too long ago.

Kayleigh


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## akhomesteader (Jan 5, 2006)

Just a thought on rabbits and a way for her to socialize a bit --- If she has any other friends, maybe she could invite one or a few to your home to see the rabbits. Maybe some of the others would be interested in getting started with a few, especially if you were willing to give (or sell cheap) a few rabbits. She'd be looked at by the others as the "resident expert" and may help her come out of her shell a little.

For math for a "language child" like your daughter, have you looked at Ray's Arithmetic. It's ALL word problems until about the middle or late 2nd grade. We just got it for our boys. I know she's in 4th grade, but if you backed up a little with something like Ray's that is all verbal, that might be just what she needs to make it click for her. I've also heard that Math it is very good, but never tried it. Some things work well combined.

Best wishes,

Jenny
Frontier Freedom


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## Marsh (Apr 29, 2003)

Have you heard of Prairie Primmer?
We have a copy of this packed and I am trying to get everything together to give this a try.
I use a story-board to teach place value. Unfortunately I am not sure I can explain it
Perfectly explained and working on making one up now. DD seems very interested in how it works.
SUM, ALTOGETHER, DIFFERENCE, DIVIDEND, FACTOR... they tell you what to do! 
Upon asking my DD what these meant...She said SUM is add and Difference is subtract..the other three she said she didn't know what they meant. Which means the fourth grade list of terms is WAYYY beyond what she fathoms. Any website that has all these terms, so that we can start at the begining with terms? And I can't go to her math book for terms because they don't use a book. They use run off sheets and they are not from a "math book" so to speak. Only math I get to see is the daily word problems and by the tie they get sent home they are 2 weeks old. Lately most of them have been wrong and the teacher has made her redo them in class. They keep everything in folders at school, barely anything has come home. And even when something does it has either a check for correct or an X for wrong. That really doesn't let me know at all where she is in comparison to other kids. The old school sent home tons of paper daily with grades on them and I knew exactly where she was. I feel very left in the dark as to where she is in this school. I only seem to get told when things are failing and past being able to be corrected. And I have told her teacher we need to work together and I kinda get the feeling of "well I really don't know her well enough and she seems to be doing fine" I know for a fact DD had to always write in cursive at her old school. This teacher says "they know how to do it but I let them print"...Now if DD can do it and knows she can get away with not doing it. Isn't that kinda of letting my DD think she can slack and not push herself to do more? (sorry I am strting to rant and go off topic here..bear with me)

If she has any other friends, maybe she could invite one or a few to your home to see the rabbits.I know she's in 4th grade, but if you backed up a little

Problem is geting her to find/make friends she is just not the type to break the ice and she certainly doesn't attract other children to her. But recently her teacher has concented to letting her bring in her crocheting to do in there quiet time. It seems that has helped the girls in class ask her questions and today she asked to bring in extra yarn and hook for another girl who wanted to learn. We also went o Karate lastnight and there were 12 kids there and DD paniced and wanted to go home. SHe said "Do I have to go out there and do anything?" I said "yes, this is your lesson time and you try to do what the teacher says and the other children do." She did get out there and after awhile she did warm up and a few of the younger kids told her she was doing very well for a begginer. But the older kids just kinda looked down to her and said nothing. As for the backing up on the math I totally agree that we need to start at the begining.

Thank you all so much. You are making this seem so much less of an issue.

Marsh


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## cindy-e (Feb 14, 2008)

I use a story-board to teach place value. Unfortunately I am not sure I can explain it
Perfectly explained and working on making one up now. DD seems very interested in how it works.
Glad to help. 
SUM, ALTOGETHER, DIFFERENCE, DIVIDEND, FACTOR... they tell you what to do! 
 Any website that has all these terms, so that we can start at the begining with terms?


http://www.hbschool.com/glossary/math2/index_temp.html

This is the Harcourt math glossary for grades K-6. Hope this helps. 

Cindyc.


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## Marsh (Apr 29, 2003)

PERFECT!! I clicked on grade 1 and I see DD knows most of the terms. But there are a few we will need to work on. So looks like grade 2 is where we are at  Thank you so very much. This is a huge help for us and DD is excited. That can only lead to good things right?

Marsh


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## RockyGlen (Jan 19, 2007)

Marsh - I was that kid. I hated crowds, they literally made me sick to my stomach. I hated being forced to participate - even at family gatherings, I would sit in a corner and read a book. My family was always forcing me to make friends and I had no interest at all. I was content to be by myself, and when I did want companionship, I sought it out.

I am a perfectly well adjusted adult, who still does not like crowds, but does like visiting with my circle of friends in small numbers at a time.

I'm not sure when socialization became so important, but I don't understand the reasoning, either. Up until a hundred years ago, many kids never left the farm until they were in their teens. 

I would suggest that you just tell her to let you know when she wants to go to a group activity and then leave her be.


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## cindy-e (Feb 14, 2008)

Marsh said:


> PERFECT!! I clicked on grade 1 and I see DD knows most of the terms. But there are a few we will need to work on. So looks like grade 2 is where we are at  Thank you so very much. This is a huge help for us and DD is excited. That can only lead to good things right?
> 
> Marsh


If she feels excited and hopeful that she can "get it" that can only be a good thing.  I can imagine she feels frustrated at school when she thinks she "should" get something and she doesn't. 

Good luck to you both!
Cindyc.


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## Marsh (Apr 29, 2003)

Problem isn't so much socialization as......SHe is the one who asks to go to these things. Then when we get there she acts the way she does....but by the time we go to leave she doesn't want to leave  I am only trying to conquer a possible fear factor thing. I was a shy kid...not as shy as DD. DD is an only child as was I, the difference being. I was brought up on a farm that grew flowers for the Boston Flower market until I was 5. SO I was around lots of kids/adults that worked on the farm. DD on the other hand has always been an only child. And there is reason to believe that DD had a twin. I possibly lost a twin 8 weeks into my pregnancy and I tested 5 times possitive for the baby being DownSyndrom during my pregnacy. Plus a few other reasons that lead us to think there was a twin that didn't grow. DD just seems to need someone or something (I.E. stuffed animal, blanket) otherwise she seems lost or scared. (DD is NOT Downs and shows no signs of it. DD just has allergies, sensativities, asthma, low lung function) Socialization isn't a priority for us, but if DD asks to do something we would like her to try it and if she hates it that's fine, we don;t do it again. If she likes it by the end and next lesson and is just frightened or shy at first until she warms up..Is there anything wrong with asking her to just try and see where it goes?

Marsh


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## okgoatgal2 (May 28, 2002)

have you had her tested for a math learning disability? if you do and she does have a math learning disability, you could find out WHAT is holding her back and how to teach her (there are people who do this, they just don't work for public schools, so it'll cost you.) for instance, i have a student who just doesn't get subtraction when you have to borrow. 7th grader. just flat doesn't understand that basic concept. parents will not work with him, they don't know how. when i show him how in class, and stand by him, he can and will do it. but there's a glitch in there. there are other things that build on that that he doesn't get, but give him a shape puzzle as a brain exercise and he's got it figured in 5 min. (like tetris) he can do it all with a calculator, but without, he's lost. didn't qualify for special ed, but he's at a 3rd grade level as a 7th grader who's been held back once. i've shown him an alternate way to subtract with borrowing, and he gets it, but he forgets how to do it. he's one who will have to use a calculator all the way through, unless i can in the next year figure out what he needs to do it on paper. i teach spec ed as well as regular math. one kid can do anything as long as he has a picture and clues to remind him what's going on. he has a low iq, takes him 3 times the amount of time to learn something, but once he gets it, he can do it. 
your task is to find out how to get it to dd. meet with the teacher. meet with the spec ed teacher. meet with other teachers. ask, go to the university and ask for help from their ed dept.


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## Marsh (Apr 29, 2003)

Asked at school about testing. They will look into it was the answer. Also asked them IF she is tested will she be "labeled" DH and I have discussed we don't want her "labeled" he was as a child and it has followed him all through his life. (Okay in 2nd and 3rd grade he needed help with reading but after that he was okay. Too bad he's never been able to take advanced classes in HS or college because he is labeled "spec ed".)We don't want to run into the issues her father has had. I also have been told that if she has such a high level in everything else that it's not really possible for her to have a learning disability in just one subject. We are looking into with a "gifted" teacher if there is a way to find out if she is a language learner. We happen to think she is. She just loves to learn anything and we are finding in written form or by watching step by step on DVDs she can pick up on things better. We are having parent teacher conferences this month. So I should have a better idea of where we are at and what the plans will be for the rest of the year and nextyear. 


Marsh


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## chicamarun (Dec 26, 2006)

Good luck Marsh! I had the same type of problem - but with Language Arts. After 1 year we moved from 3rd grade (he was technically in 5th) all the way through 5th.... he came home and couldn't tell me what a NOUN was!!

On his standardized tests he was "gifted" in history and math - yet his grades were awful but in language his grades were A's & B's and he failed the standardized test. Something just wasn't clicking.

I don't regret my decision to pull both my kids last year - this "No child left behind" thing is just plain dumb when kids can't keep up! My son used to tell me he was stupid and that is just heart breaking to hear from an 8 year old (which is when he noticed he was slower than some of his friends)

Maybe try full-time/part-time hs'ing over the summer and see how you do - you may decide then to keep her home until she catches up! Or you may decide it's not for you 

I do wish you the best though and hope it works out!!


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## harplade (Jul 14, 2005)

you might want to look at Developmental Math-unit style books that take you through many areas of math in a fairly, easy, non-threatening way.

My daughter (always hs) is similar to yours. Very high skills in language and poor in math. She is 12 now and I think finally ready to really be pushed in math. Before it was so frustrating to her that I had the sense it would always be a hate thing and not something that she could learn to enjoy. 

My advice, don't be afraid to forget about the school system's scope and sequence and keep her at 3rd grade level for awhile, if that is where she is comfortable. Incorporate math into daily activities-it's amazing how much math you use in a day and don't even realize it. I would not make any of it a big issue or you will have a young adult who hates math and believes they are terrible at it. I have found with my daughter, the math side of her brain needs a lot of exercise (sort of like rehabilitating an injury)-lots of exercise to make strong connections in her brain b/c it is not important to her, it doesn't get set in her brain and consequently,is not there for later use.

But I am beginning to see it happening with my child =I would do some reading about development of abilities and other activities that might stimulate those places in her brain. 

And I'm with the other poster about her being shy-I never involved myself in kid activities, was shy, couldn't talk to adults-at 45, I'm very social, very involved-just had to grow up.

Don't know if your area has a homeschool speech club but we have found that a great way to give confidence to our children. We are involved with Communicators for Christ and it is truly an amazing program. 

Good luck,
hAPRLADE


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