# What will $3000.00 get you in solar or ????



## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

Besides having a small solar battery charger on a house boat one time, I do not know much about it. Here is my situation, I really hope someone with some knowledge on the subject will offer some advise. I recently bought 20 acres and am slowly planning out a farm there. I plan on having a small house maybe 12 x 24 off the road in the woods a bit.
I talked to the electric company and my only choice, besides cutting a wide 60' opening for the overhead line to come, thereby clearing a bunch of trees I do not want to cut down, is to go underground service. The underground service is going to cost me $2000.00, plus I will have to dig and bury the conduit for it, which will probably be 2 days work with my trackhoe and another $500.00 in conduit. So in all reality I am looking at $3000.00 in order to get electricity back to the little house.
Here is my question, what kind of alternative energy system can I set up for that amount of money? 
I will have gas for heat and stove and probably water heater. So I would be needing electric for lights, computer, microwave, refrigerator. Various outlets for odds and ends, to charge a computer etc. probably a fan? to be able to run a window air conditioner at times would probably be nice? Nothing big, just normal kitchen appliances. The window air conditioner would probably be the biggest thing, and I guess I could do with out if absolutely necessary?
I would really appreciate some info. from any of you with experience in this kind of thing. Thanks for all replies ahead of time.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Never heard of a power Co. putting a service feed in conduit. They use a trencher and put down underground wire made for the purpose.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

$3000 in off-grid PV will get you about 1kwh usage daily average or about 10 to 12 cents worth of power from the power company. Can you get your usage down that low?

Plus you'll be replacing the batteries every few years.

WWW


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Panels: 1,000 watts will cost you $1,000 (maybe a shade less with Chinese made) including shipping.

Mppt charge controller: $600 for an Outback 60amp ( you can expand your panels later if you want up to [email protected] with this controller)

Inverter: $1700 bucks for a 3000 watt Outback

Wire/fusing/etc: Figure another $300 or so.

Batteries: Figure a 24v based system, 400amp/hr bare bones. 4 Deka L-16's @ $250/ea....another $1,000

That puts you at $4600. You'll get about 3-4kw/hrs a day out of it.

You can shop, and possibly get cheaper components ( I like Outback....first class stuff ), but you'll still be well over 3,000.

Small fridge will take 1.5 of them. Small window AC will take couple more. You'd have very little to spare.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Jim-mi said:


> Never heard of a power Co. putting a service feed in conduit. They use a trencher and put down underground wire made for the purpose.


Yeah...seen it done here. Built a house for a guy once, and the service feed was about 300' in 3" conduit he had to put in along with a pull rope.

I'd have loved to have been there the day they pulled the wire....must have had to use a couple gallons of wire lube !


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi,
If the house is back in the woods a bit, you may have trouble mounting the pv panels where they will get good sun?

If in doubt, do a solar site survey: http://www.builditsolar.com/SiteSurvey/site_survey.htm

Gary


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

Thanks for all the info. The power company can do it all, but you pay for it. I know the local engineer for the power company and we have actually put in some underground at another house, just not this far before, so the cost was much less. I will have power running to a shop and another building up closer to their power pole feed, but I can do that overhead with no issues. I was just wanting to consider alternatives, before I committed to running the underground service to the house. I have actually run 30 amps of power underground myself from another shop I had about 200 feet to a building, with no issues after 4 or 5 years. I was considering doing that here, just for lights, but I would not want to run an appliance on it. I would be running close to 300' here on this property. I might could run it to help charge a battery system?? 
I need to decide in the next couple of months, so I can get power hooked up before next winter, so I will consider the information given and look at some of the companies mentioned. So far it sounds like $3000.00 would realistically only get a very limited system??


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

We bought a little cabin in the woods several years ago. We put up solar panels which ran our small appliances, television, and lights. We bought a package deal and added another 125 watt panel. The package was 2 - 100 watt panels, 30 amp charge controller and 1500 watt inverter. We later put a larger inverter that we purchased seperately. We also had a small wind generator. We ran an 8 battery battery bank. We had a small propane refrigerator, propane cook stove and wood stove for heat and a small generator that we used to run our window airconditioner to cool the house down around 10 am - 10:45 am good and then when DH got home from work around 5:30 until the house was again cool around 7:00 pm while we did outside chores and then used fans which ran off of our solar for the rest of the evening. Granted we used our electricity carefully but didn't really miss anything. Our laptop recharged off of its own small solar panel. We also had some lights that ran off of their own battery and charger for emergencies and we also used these type in the barn. 
The total for the solar we used was around $2500.00.

We would still be there if DH job hadn't forced us to move several hours away. I miss it. No electric bill, satellite or cable bill, computer (we had one but only used internet when we went to town), and we used 2 of the 20# propane bottles (one refr and one for stove) a month ($34.00). Composting non elec. toilet and we hauled water as well as having a nice catchment set up for the livestock and the garden.

It could be done to run a house as you do on the grid electricity but I would suspect the cost would be huge.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

For a wind turbine we installed 800' from the home we put two Hoffman boxes in the conduit run. That way you pull from box to box. 
The way the OP is written, I assumed he ment that the power Co. was installing the whole way. . . and using such as 4/0 triplex.
No way are you going to run AC very long on TnAndy's good idea of a "small" system.
So if AC is a 12 hour a day "must" you best put the grid in . . . . .or face it and spend much more than 3k for a system........


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## poorboy (Apr 15, 2006)

Jim-mi said:


> For a wind turbine we installed 800' from the home we put two Hoffman boxes in the conduit run. That way you pull from box to box.
> The way the OP is written, I assumed he ment that the power Co. was installing the whole way. . . and using such as 4/0 triplex.
> No way are you going to run AC very long on TnAndy's good idea of a "small" system.
> So if AC is a 12 hour a day "must" you best put the grid in . . . . .or face it and spend much more than 3k for a system........


A person increased the budget to 15-20 G, how many kw could they expect a day..?


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

Just to be clear. If I hook up to the grid. The power company will set a pole at the property line. I will dig and put in conduit back to withing 100' of my intended house. They will run cable to this spot, set a 600amp transformer (the smallest he has) and I will then feed from there to my house. I would at the same time run conduit from the transformer back towards the pole to pick up my other 2 buildings, all from the 600amp transformer.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

poorboy said:


> A person increased the budget to 15-20 G, how many kw could they expect a day..?


Probably 20-30kwhrs/day....it's going to depend on where you live (sun wise), time of year, etc.....but when you get up in that kind of money, you can come real close to grid power. I do. 

Important thing is the scale of economy starts to kick in at some point.

For example, that 60amp charge controller I quoted to Mule above wasn't maxed out at 1,000 watts of panel. Running a 24v system, you could have 1600w of panel on the same charge controller for no extra money.

BUT if you're gonna spend that kind of money, you want to go to a 48v system ( which does mean more batteries, but you get the benefit of better use of other equipment )

Increase your battery bank to 48v in size, and that same charge controller can now handle 3200w of panel......and for a few bucks more, you can get the 80amp version that will handle even more panels.

IF you can figure out from the get-go what you wish to accomplish, you can save money adding more components later, or having the ones you already have mis-matched. 

For example, read Grandma's post.....they started with too small a system for their needs, limited as they were. They added another inverter...they ran a separate system for the barn lights....that type of thing.

That is quite typical, as most of us can't anticipate the end of where we want to go in terms of power. Heck, I've added on to mine 4 times now....changed the battery bank out to a completely different type and size after my L-16's were only two years old. And worst of all, did a 24v system when I clearly ( in retrospect and having learned ) should have gone 48v. Yeah, IF I did mine over tomorrow from scratch, I'd do things a whole lot different.

That's why it's important, if you plan to outlay that kind of cash, you get some really expert help and take advantage of the experience of those gone ahead of you.


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## topofmountain (Nov 1, 2013)

After thinking I was going to go solar & even bought 1500w pure sine inverter etc. I figured out that it will be fine for a backup if needed. But Solar & wind are both expensive. I pulled our 26' TT on property & have a 2000/1600w inverter generator. After messing around I figured it would power that much. So 1500W inverter isn't going to do much except as an emergency backup for lights & a few things.
I'm meeting with the power company to see what they have to say. 
We are building a 500 sq/ft house. Here they use conduct for feeder lines.
I'm ordering another 2000w inverter generator & a parallel kit to tie them together so I can run my 30amp TT. I'll have a total of $900 in the two generators & parallel kit.
Before solar I would look into generators. Yes Gas but I keep gas around anyway 15-18 gals. The generators I'm using run about 8 hours on a gallon of gas.


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## MrsRaspberry (Sep 21, 2004)

> That is quite typical, as most of us can't anticipate the end of where we want to go in terms of power. Heck, I've added on to mine 4 times now....changed the battery bank out to a completely different type and size after my L-16's were only two years old. And worst of all, did a 24v system when I clearly ( in retrospect and having learned ) should have gone 48v. Yeah, IF I did mine over tomorrow from scratch, I'd do things a whole lot different.


We are in a similar situation as Muleman. We will have to spent several thousand $ to get the buried line out to the house, pay for a transformer etc. We too have wondered if it was cost effective to put that money into our own system. Our rural electric rates just went up and there is talk of continued rate increases as the gov't forces plant closures in our area. 

We are prepared to cut our electrical usage way back: no dryer, no electric heat, no AC... We still do hope to have a small refrig and freezer during the summer/fall months. We will have propane for other appliances but i don't know if I want a propane frig and/of freezer. We would have a well pump and other smaller watt items. Also, it is likely we would have a generator as a backup.
I think we would like to stay in the 10G ball park for the solar system. Does that sound reasonable?
Also, could you explain why you would recommend 48v and would that be possible in our budget. Thanks for your expertise.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

MrsRaspberry said:


> I think we would like to stay in the 10G ball park for the solar system. Does that sound reasonable?
> Also, could you explain why you would recommend 48v and would that be possible in our budget. Thanks for your expertise.


First, the 48v issue. 

As you go up in voltage, you go down in amperage. That means your fusing and wiring (smaller) gets cheaper. Example: You run a 1500w inverter on 12v. You need a (1500/12) 125amp ( actually more for safety ) size fuse or beaker. But at 48v, you only need a 40 amp fuse/breaker. 

125amp needs a LARGE wire....1/0. 40amp needs #8.....lot smaller wire....lot cheaper.

And some of the equipment, such as the charge controller, lets you use more capacity as you go up in voltage. 

Example: The Outback FX60 (60amp) charge controller. It can be set (in the field....you simply punch the right buttons) 12v, 24v, 36v and 48v. If you set up a 12v system, you are limited to 800 watts of solar panel connected to it. But if you set up your system at 24v, you can connect 1600watt of panel to it. And if you go 48v, you can connect 3200w to it. These cost about $500-600 (depends where you shop). 

SO, say you decide to set up (right now) a 1200 watt (panel watts) system. If you went 12v, you'd need *two of the controllers*.....an extra 500 bucks......but if you went 24v, you could go with just one, AND have 400 watts you could expand your system later with no extra cost. AND if you went 48v, you could expand 2000 more watts at no extra cost.

As you go up in voltage, it's easier build larger battery banks. Most recommendations say no more than 3-4 strings of batteries ( connections in parallel ). 

With a 12v system ( say you used 6v batteries ), that would limit you to 8 batteries......4 pair of 6v batteries, the pairs being connected in series to give 12v. If the batteries were 400amp/hr, you'd have a max bank of 1600amp/hr.

With a 24v system, you could double that.

With a 48v system, you could double that again. (potentially, you don't HAVE to )

The inverter really doesn't cost any more either....you simply have to choose the voltage you want to set your system up with from the start.

OK enough about 48v.

Now to the first part of your question: What could $10k do ?

FIRST, you have to ask yourself:

1. Do you want grid tie ONLY. This is the cheapest way to do solar, but if the grid is down, you have no power from your system. 

2. Grid tie with battery back up. This gives you the advantage of being grid tied, you can reduce or eliminate your bill ( we have none ) depending on HOW your local power company deals with solar ( some are more friendly than others ), but if the grid goes down, you have at least some backup power ( depends on your system size, and battery bank )

3. Off grid ONLY. More expensive than grid tie normally, to get anywhere close to the same capacity. Generally, you will have to have some generator backup unless you WAY oversize ($$$$) your solar system.

I went with #2... grid tie with battery backup. 

We are normally tied to the grid...we backfeed our excess power production to the grid, for which they pay us a premium price ( you'd need to check with your local power supplier for how they handle solar, and if they pay anything for it....some do, some don't ). I want to be grid tied, BUT I wanted a big enough system so we have no bill, AND I wanted the ability to be off grid if the grid fails.

SO, the question of what will 10k buy depends on which of the above you choose to go with. Give me that info, and I'll tell you what your budget will do.


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## MrsRaspberry (Sep 21, 2004)

> SO, the question of what will 10k buy depends on which of the above you choose to go with. Give me that info, and I'll tell you what your budget will do.


Thanks for the help! We plan to be totally off grid (reducing the big energy consuming appliances) and have a generator for backup. Looking for ability to have some refrigeration and of occasional use of other devices (probably want a washer as well).


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

KB just posted a list of components that will run right around 10,000 when he is all done, and give him 4kwhrs/day in his location ( I think he might get a bit more out of it, but better to be conservative).

4kwhrs/day will give you basic refrigeration, some lights, and the occasional use of things like a washing machine.

For a few thousand more, you could expand the system, and nearly double your power production. Most of the costs are built into the first part....adding on gets quite a bit cheaper.


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## kycrawler (Sep 18, 2011)

You may look into converting a small chest freezer into a refrigerator. I bought a plug in extra t stat for mine and have been using it in my shop for a year and it uses about 80-90 w per day verses1900-2200 for a regular fridge


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## Fire-Man (Apr 30, 2005)

Muleman, a $3000 system would not run your future Cabinet Incubator---LOL.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

I think if you can get grid power for 3 gran go for it. Then go for adding solar and independance as soon as you can.
It will take a very frugal life style to live on a 3 gran solar system and a lot of help from mom nature.
We went off grid but the pwer company estimate was closer to 20gran and I have lived off the grid most of my adult life..
Just spent another 3gran on an upgrade this week. 
The more you have the more you use.


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## TraderBob (Oct 21, 2010)

If I could have had power out to my new location for $2500 - $3000 it would have been a no brainer. They wanted $25,000 minimum to get it there...I said goodbye. Half of that will get me more power than I need from solar.

Take the power company...and then start building a solar backup for later to get off grid if you want.


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## Ryan Paul Romer (Sep 27, 2013)

I thought I would share my system cost. As it powers Everything you have said you wanted, and sense my purchase of it a few months ago the prices went down.
I have 14 DC Lights / No inverter Needed (15 Each from www.commandelectronics.com)
They draw .35 amps each / so you can use small gauge wire. Bought a cheap light switch for each DC light / Regular Light switch 2 bucks for cover box and switch.
Then I have a Sun Force / Pure sine Wave 2500/5000 peak / On sale for 309 amazon.
A breaker box from lowes 40 bucks included 5 / 20 amp breakers.
Bought 250 Romex lowes / 100 bucks
10 / 6 Volts @ Sams Club : 115 each (232 amp hours) (there are some smaller ones for 84 each) 32 amps less about. If I would do it again I would get the smaller ones. I have 1160 amp hours total.
If the batteries are treated right / never go below 70% SOC you can get 8 years are so.
5 new outlets in house / about 15 bucks for covers etc and all.
Panels : Fred480v on E bay got UL listed with warranty Best Prices I found on the web.
I got 6 / Sharp UL Listed 25 Yr Warranty (230 watts per panel @ 6 panels = 1380 watts ) for 1100 / 200 for shipping so 1300 all together.
And I got a Midnight MPPT Classic because at 12 volts it can go to 96 amps more than the other systems that are High End like the outback flex etc. Got it for 600 from northern arizona wind 650 with shipping. I think this system is more like about 4900 at the time I purchased it, but as I said prices are falling, you maybe able to do 4k at the moment or less depending on your system. Just remember the voltage of the bank can make a big difference : I choose 12 volts because / lets use common sense here / You can buy just about anything 12 volt dc. Can you do that with 24 /48 without it being a specialty item with a ridiculous cost? Just my opinion but 12 volts will serve better in a SHTF scenario.
Here is the vid walk thru of my system. 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLF58BMj0IQ[/ame]


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## Muleman (Nov 8, 2013)

Ryan,
I just wanted to say thank you for the detailed information. I will certainly check those sources out. I have decided I am not going to run power back to the cabin. I will make it work without power if needed. I think I can come up with something to power minimum systems and make do without some. I am just tried of being dependent on outside sources. Not really a survivalist or nothing, I just know my grandparents lived fairly well without all of these modern conveniences and they did not have a $200.00 a month electric bill.


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## CJ (May 10, 2002)

We're building a half mile in. It's going to cost us $15k to run power ABOVE ground, and that doesn't include the 1/2 mile 30 foot easement we'll have to clear first. Outrageous? We thought so too, until we priced a battery backup solar system large enough to power our stuff (NOT including ANY a/c) was going to start right around $50k.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

CJ said:


> ...we priced a battery backup solar system large enough to power our stuff (NOT including ANY a/c) was going to start right around $50k.


Wow, that's a lot of solar.

Was that $50k before or after the 30% tax break?


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## gpforet (Dec 24, 2013)

Would you believe that almost exactly what I spent ($2780) for 900 watts to run my deep freezer. That's before the fed tax rebate.



wy_white_wolf said:


> $3000 in off-grid PV will get you about 1kwh usage daily average or about 10 to 12 cents worth of power from the power company. Can you get your usage down that low?
> 
> Plus you'll be replacing the batteries every few years.
> 
> WWW


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