# Horse hay question????



## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

Hi everyone!
What is the best cutting of hay for the horses? I just bought 75 bales of 2nd cutting hay. Nice and dry and green, and smells sweet! But now that I've started using it, I throw 2 flakes into each horses plastic 55 gal drum hay feeders that I've just made. They work great! But after the horses eat what they will eat, there is a massive amount of large stem left. Almost the size of the hay bale wire or a little larger. Is this normal for 2nd cutting. I've never bought the square bales, I've always just fed them off large rounds.
Thanks for any input!
TerryR


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## SFM in KY (May 11, 2002)

Isn't what you'd usually expect, but what kind of hay can make a difference. Alfalfa? Clover? Grass ... and if so what kind? Where you live can make a difference as well.


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## loli (Aug 14, 2011)

I always used to buy half of each of the first and second cutting for my horses. When I lived in Indiana and we raised our own alfalfa and grass then I had 4 cuts. There is more fiber to the first cut and I tend to prefer it to feed at night when they are stalled. Since moving to Kansas, I don't feed any more alfalfa and mine get 24 hour access to round bales unless I am hauling them somewhere, then I just buy a few bales of prairie hay.


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## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

I live in central Ill. I have an Arabian and a Welsh pony that has to have grass only as I was told. 
So I'm buying grass for both. I'm adding nutrients for the Arab as he's a rescue and got him skin and bones. Bad timing to try to fatten up a horse, with 20's daytime and teens at nite.
But he's eating like a madman so he's looking a lot better already.
Is them stem normal for grass 2nd cutting? The large round bales don't have as much stem it seems like. But it gets wet outside and molds up to fast, so I decided to buy squares to keep under cover.




SFM in KY said:


> Isn't what you'd usually expect, but what kind of hay can make a difference. Alfalfa? Clover? Grass ... and if so what kind? Where you live can make a difference as well.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Frankly if they leave the less palatable parts of good quality hay, they are probably simply getting too much. 
Of course my two girls are very unfussy eaters. If they are allowed, they will go and eat the cleaned up hay from the goats- then go back and eat the same hay that's in their nets. Minus the nanny berries of course. I have to remember to put the wheel barrow where they can;t reach it.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Hay for horses IMO is overblown in terms of the quality they MUST have. Horses survive and thrive on all kinds of quality hay. But the owners, well, they have different expectations for their babies than the horses themselves! trust me, I am married to a horse girl: It is less about what the horse needs, than what the owner thinks they need.

Just my opinion...


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

It really depends on what exactly is in your "grass" hay - because there are many grasses, and many weeds, that can be present. And, it depends on where you live, and it depends on the weather of your hay season. What is getting left - can you tell? Stems of timothy, or is it a weed? (e.g. Canary reed grass, knapweed?)

This year the early season was VERY wet here in NY, and most first cuttings were very late. A lot of them were stemmy, but most of us were happy to get anything by the time hay finally got cut.

And, it depends on your horses. My TB mare is a finicky prima donna. She doesn't eat stems, and she doesn't pick hay off dirt. And she isn't getting too much - she will drop weight below what is good because she is finicky. But my APHA mare, she'll eat just about anything, out of mud, manure or snow, and still is fatter than I'd like.

What really matters is whether you think you are getting your money's worth. If your hay costs $4.00/bale and they are leaving a little bit behind....that's still acceptable in my books, so long as the cleanup is not too awful. But if you're paying $4.00/bale and they are leaving 1/2 behind -- you are paying $8/bale of hay...not a good deal. 

You can try reducing their hay and/or just delaying the next batch of fresh hay to see if they will clean it up better. My horses generally will leave stems and weeds behind, and in my opinion that is acceptable. I am not going to make them eat weeds before I give them more hay.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

Not a very good year for hay here in the Midwest. Hay growers were not able to cut it at optimum times because of the rain. First cutting mine wont hardly touch and second they are leaving some behind too. Part of that is because the pastures still have some green in them and so they're being picky. Let snow cover the grass up and I bet they'll eat every last blade of even the first cutting.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

farmerDale said:


> Hay for horses IMO is overblown in terms of the quality they MUST have. Horses survive and thrive on all kinds of quality hay. But the owners, well, they have different expectations for their babies than the horses themselves! trust me, I am married to a horse girl: It is less about what the horse needs, than what the owner thinks they need.
> 
> Just my opinion...


Oh My Goodness, this could be the post of the year!!!

This happened on Saturday a few years ago. At about 11 we had one hay customer come to our farm to purchase hay, when they arrived they stated emphatically that they had to have grass hay with no alfalfa because alfalfa hay was not good for horses. They left with 100 bales of grass hay. Not an hour later another customer arrived to purchase hay for their horses. This customer stated emphatically that they had to have hay with a lot of alfalfa because horses had to have alfalfa because of the extra nutrients in alfalfa.

The interesting thing is that both of these customers were feeding quarter horses that were being worked. 

Jim


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## fellini123 (Feb 2, 2003)

We have a bunch of acres in hay. I'm bad I dont know how much or really what kind. I do know it is grass, it smells wonderful and both me and the horses like it. Me to carry, them to eat!!
Since it is our own hay and we just split it with the guy that cuts it, we dont have much choice. But it sure seems like nice hay to me. And I must say my horses are not skinney.......they are not FAT, the are pleasantly plump!!

Alice in Virginia


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## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

I think it really depends on lots of factors like what exactly is in the grass hay, when it was cut, and how hungry the horses are. It might also depend on how old your horses are and the condition of their teeth. Both of my older horses got where they had trouble chewing because they were old and their teeth were worn so thicker stems were not what they were going to eat. You might have somewhat picky horses too.


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## DJ54 (Jul 27, 2013)

I make my own mixed grass hay, and try to keep a balance of the bulk of it in grass. Rye Grass, and Timothy, which are right at about 14% in protein, are the bulk of it at about 60% of the total. I also have some alfalfa, and red clover to balance it out.

First cutting will have the most nutrition, although not the prettiest. 2nd and third are pretty much like candy to them, and helps to get them to clean it up, after getting bored with only eating hay through the winter.

I do make round bales, and store them inside, so there is very little, if any at all waste, as with rounds stored outside. I don't feed it free choice, but rather set the bale up on end, and unwrap the amount to feed with a pitchfork, and put in the feeder. Lots less waste that way.

If you have some sort of performance horse, and able to burn off the higher protein of the alfalfa, then you may be OK. Pure alfalfa will definitely make them hot..!! Just like feeding them grain, then immediatly going for a ride within an hour. It usually takes roughly an hour to get that sugar burned out of their system, then return to their normal self. 

Just like humans eating that candybar to get that little energy boost. It's just the sugar buzz going, until the body burns it off, or stores it.

Although in horses, if higher protein hay is fed all of the time, and not worked off, I've read where it can be hard on the kidneys.

In the world of race horses, and high end performance horses, they can burn that protein off. As far as trail horses like I have, a good quality mixed hay is the ticket.

I completely changed my feeding program this spring, weaning them off grain. It's now just mixed hay, and a mineral block, and salt block, and grass pasture.

I learned my lesson this spring, when nearly foundering 3 of mine, on lush spring grass. Even though they were eased out on it, starting an hour a day, and progressed up to 8 hours after about 3 weeks. The lush spring grass was around 20% protein. And me not riding to burn it off, caused the problem. And it seemed the lighter colored hoof horses were the worst, with the black hoofed mare was not as bad. And I guess the Donkey was smart enough to quit eating when he got his fill, and not keep gorging, as he had no symptoms at all. Just seems no two are exactly alike...


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

DJ54 said:


> First cutting will have the most nutrition, although not the prettiest. 2nd and third are pretty much like candy to them, and helps to get them to clean it up, after getting bored with only eating hay through the winter.


DJ54,

The physiological age of the plant has a greater impact on the nutrition of a hay as opposed to the "cutting" of the hay. Generally first cuttings are less nutritious than later cutting not because of the cutting but because first cutting is typically later in the growth of the plant because of delayed cutting due to weather issues. As a result the plants have more lignin and less crude protein.

Here is an example:

Timothy hay, Early Bloom Crude Protein 10.8% DM ADF 35.2% DM

Timothy hay, Late Bloom Crude Protein 7.8% DM ADF 41.8% DM

Jim


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## DJ54 (Jul 27, 2013)

Maybe it's just the luck of the draw, but I have managed to get my 1rst cutting hay made most of the time early. Usually Rye grass is just heading out, but yet the Climax Timothy was still 7-10 days from the boot stage. Ideally, I like to make it when Timothy is just in boot. 

Last year I slit seeded in some Tuukka Timothy, which is supposed to bloom earlier, and produce more. Of course, I won't see the real results until this year. But last year, what did come up, was right with the Rye grass with ripening.

Unless the ground is sopping wet, if I get a 3 day window, I can get it cut, dried and in the barn, at the optimum time. Probably 1 in 5 years, it does get overmatured. Hope I'm not jinxing myself by saying that, LOL...

But in the past, there seems to be a window of time shortly before Memorial Day, that I can get it made.

Apparently I'm doing something right. When the Vet comes for the spring shots, plus the Blacksmith comes every 6-8 weeks, depending on the season, they both tell me, 'What ever you're doing, keep doing it.." They seem to be in pretty decent condition.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Blessed are the knowledgeable hay growers. Thank you.


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

I want my horses to be able to eat any time they are awake and feel like it, so I use a slow feeder that I can fit an entire square bale of hay into. I have two horses, one Icelandic, and one TWH. Neither of them are picky about hay (so far anyway). The TWH will pretty much nibble on that slow feeder all day long. The Icelandic actually takes breaks. I figure this is good for them, not only providing them with "grazing" anytime they want it, but it keeps food flowing through their systems which helps avoid ulcers and other gut upsets. And the TWH eats more (which he needs) and the Icelandic eats less (which is good, as his ribs are not easy to find). They can regulate their intake much better this way than if I was tossing hay out several times a day and hoping each would eat the right amount.

I'm feeding them right now a very late first cutting grass hay (the weather for hay this summer was awful - mostly too wet too often until August). It's actually not terribly stemmy (except for the weedy bits) and they will clean it up. 

The only supplements they get are a trace mineral salt block, a vit/min pellet, hoof supplement, and the TWH gets some black oil sunflower seeds for the extra calories, since he seems to need them.


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## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

Karen, what is a slow feeder? I'm possibly interested in getting one for my pony.
thanks very much, Terry



birchtreefarm said:


> I want my horses to be able to eat any time they are awake and feel like it, so I use a slow feeder that I can fit an entire square bale of hay into. I have two horses, one Icelandic, and one TWH. Neither of them are picky about hay (so far anyway). The TWH will pretty much nibble on that slow feeder all day long. The Icelandic actually takes breaks. I figure this is good for them, not only providing them with "grazing" anytime they want it, but it keeps food flowing through their systems which helps avoid ulcers and other gut upsets. And the TWH eats more (which he needs) and the Icelandic eats less (which is good, as his ribs are not easy to find). They can regulate their intake much better this way than if I was tossing hay out several times a day and hoping each would eat the right amount.
> 
> I'm feeding them right now a very late first cutting grass hay (the weather for hay this summer was awful - mostly too wet too often until August). It's actually not terribly stemmy (except for the weedy bits) and they will clean it up.
> 
> The only supplements they get are a trace mineral salt block, a vit/min pellet, hoof supplement, and the TWH gets some black oil sunflower seeds for the extra calories, since he seems to need them.


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## dizzy (Jun 25, 2013)

I have 3 horses, an Arab, a Chincoteague pony and a Welsh (Arab?) cross. I've never worried about what cutting my hay is. In fact, quite often, my hay comes from an auction-though I did get lucky both last year and this year in that I found someone to buy RBs from for a good price. The only one of those 3 that could use some weight is the Chincoteague. But, he's in his 20s, is missing teeth and has heaves. While he eats at the hay, I honestly don't know how much if any of it he actually eats. He's on a complete feed and I've had a few vets tell me there's nothing else I can do other than what I'm doing. (Believe me, I've tried several things) The Arab is a good weight, and the Welsh cross is a bit fat. (I might have to get a grazing muzzle for her)


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## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

My buddy here in central Il told me this summer wasn't a very good yr for hay. Wet in the spring then dry,dry,dry. So a lot of weed stem etc.
So I'm going to live with it. 2nd and 3 rd cutting is the best I've learned.
My 3 pastures are all eaten down. Sooooo, its hay time.

Just bought the COB grazing muzzle from stateline. kinda looks BIG to me.
But I believe it'll help my Welsh pony hold her weight down.
Thank you everyone for chiming in. I was just curious if this was normal.
Still learning about my best friend equines!
I've learned to really really love them! They are fun to have!
TerryR



dizzy said:


> I have 3 horses, an Arab, a Chincoteague pony and a Welsh (Arab?) cross. I've never worried about what cutting my hay is. In fact, quite often, my hay comes from an auction-though I did get lucky both last year and this year in that I found someone to buy RBs from for a good price. The only one of those 3 that could use some weight is the Chincoteague. But, he's in his 20s, is missing teeth and has heaves. While he eats at the hay, I honestly don't know how much if any of it he actually eats. He's on a complete feed and I've had a few vets tell me there's nothing else I can do other than what I'm doing. (Believe me, I've tried several things) The Arab is a good weight, and the Welsh cross is a bit fat. (I might have to get a grazing muzzle for her)


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## birchtreefarm (Jul 22, 2007)

TerryR said:


> Karen, what is a slow feeder? I'm possibly interested in getting one for my pony.
> thanks very much, Terry


I got mine from here: http://www.bigbalebuddy.com/slowbalebuddy.html

It requires the horse to fish the hay out through the holes in the nylon mesh. Keeps them from snarfing their hay. Also keeps them from getting bored.


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## arnie (Apr 26, 2012)

the second cutting is usally moer tender and the livestock like it better. horses not at hard work can do well on rougher hay of corse like me n you they like the best and will pick through eating the tastyest tender blades first . like most things harvest time ect affect the quality of hay as well as the mixture of grasses in the field . most hayfields are bound to have some weeds . the main thing with horses is never feed any moldy =dusty hay and keep an eye on their condtion some remain fat on weeds while others need grain even with the best hay preticularly older horses


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Timing. Late cut first, second or third cutting will have more large stems than hay cut at the proper time. Around here, the cooler, moist air helps the hay stay leafier and small stemmed. I have bought clover hay, from downstate, that had thick stems the horses wouldn't eat. I think it was Mammoth Clover. 
When you buy hay, flip it to the cut side and see if you can see lots of thick stems. 
Horses can do well on lower quality hay, but it cannot be musty, moldy or dusty. Horses have tiny stomachs, compared to cattle, so it must be easier to digest.
If my horses drop weight, I increase grain (oats, cracked corn, spelt, soybean meal, molasses, minerals and vitamins).


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

Made at the right time, first cutting hay will be the stemmist, followed by second and third. First cutting protein is lower and it climbs from there. Good third cutting alfalfa is pretty high in protein for horses, but it is good dairy hay.


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## TerryR (May 20, 2012)

I believe that is what I have. It was sold to me as grass hay. But, I see clover in it, and the large stems I'll bet are the Mammoth clover.
They flat out won't eat it!
When I buy the large grass bales from the same guy, I don't see all this clover in it, and they eat most of it. I was told he sometimes buys from the auction house and resells it. Its a business and there are alot of horses around here to feed, and everyone wants square bales.
thanks for the info, I'll check the cut side next time!
TerryR







haypoint said:


> Timing. Late cut first, second or third cutting will have more large stems than hay cut at the proper time. Around here, the cooler, moist air helps the hay stay leafier and small stemmed. I have bought clover hay, from downstate, that had thick stems the horses wouldn't eat. I think it was Mammoth Clover.
> When you buy hay, flip it to the cut side and see if you can see lots of thick stems.
> Horses can do well on lower quality hay, but it cannot be musty, moldy or dusty. Horses have tiny stomachs, compared to cattle, so it must be easier to digest.
> If my horses drop weight, I increase grain (oats, cracked corn, spelt, soybean meal, molasses, minerals and vitamins).


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

It is sort of a complex question. While most horses do not need high protein hay, some may refer to horse hay as low quality. From that, some folks think horses can digest weeds or over mature or moldy or dusty hay. 
Grass hay dries quicker than clover or alfalfa, so is more likely to be properly dried and not moldy or dusty. I'd prefer well cured grass hay over poorly dried alfalfa. 
Many "real" farmers plowed up their hay fields so they could make more money on corn. That has thrown hay production to part timers and ground too poor to grow corn. Drought has increased demand both ways, less production of hay and increased use of hay when pastures failed early. Sometimes you can bale junk and still find a buyer. The result is a manger full of cane poles.


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## ognend (Sep 15, 2010)

farmerDale said:


> Hay for horses IMO is overblown in terms of the quality they MUST have. Horses survive and thrive on all kinds of quality hay. But the owners, well, they have different expectations for their babies than the horses themselves! trust me, I am married to a horse girl: It is less about what the horse needs, than what the owner thinks they need.
> 
> Just my opinion...


Horses in the wild eat all sorts of things including small rocks (for minerals and calcium). These native and natural grasses contain a multitude of nutrients that may or may not be available in your "store bought hay". The typical American horse eats too much sugar and does not work enough. He is the equivalent of a typical American human who spends too much time on the couch eating McDonalds.

"less about what the owner thinks they need": there is truth to this statement in a sense that many owners are uneducated about the nutritional requirements of their horse, often not due to their own fault - the science on this topic is often conflicting, you can have three different vets come out and tell you three conflicting opinions.

However, to dismiss it as "throw 'em anything resembling hay, they are not picky", well, that's your call . Don't forget that hay is a human invention, horses are grazing animals spending most of their days moving 20-30 miles scavenging for food. It is up to you to try and provide something that mimics that (give them a daily job, avoid shoeing them, provide proper nutrition, use slow feeders if they can't graze etc.)


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

ognend said:


> Horses in the wild eat all sorts of things including small rocks (for minerals and calcium). These native and natural grasses contain a multitude of nutrients that may or may not be available in your "store bought hay". The typical American horse eats too much sugar and does not work enough. He is the equivalent of a typical American human who spends too much time on the couch eating McDonalds.
> 
> "less about what the owner thinks they need": there is truth to this statement in a sense that many owners are uneducated about the nutritional requirements of their horse, often not due to their own fault - the science on this topic is often conflicting, you can have three different vets come out and tell you three conflicting opinions.
> 
> However, to dismiss it as "throw 'em anything resembling hay, they are not picky", well, that's your call . Don't forget that hay is a human invention, horses are grazing animals spending most of their days moving 20-30 miles scavenging for food. It is up to you to try and provide something that mimics that (give them a daily job, avoid shoeing them, provide proper nutrition, use slow feeders if they can't graze etc.)


 Um, no. Horses in the wild didn't stay sound well into their 20s as do many well managed horses today. You are right, hay is a modern invention, humans have only been making hay for 3000 years. Prior to that horses grazed the plains harvesting their own, still standing, grass "hay". Bet it wasn't moldy or dusty.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Our horses at the moment, are out on stockpiled pasture, gleaning from the dried brown grass. Which is under the snow. They are in their best condition of the year at this time. Before too much snow comes. When it does snow too much, they are moved home, and fed grass hay. Like haypoint, if they show signs of losing condition they get a bit of oats as well.


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## ognend (Sep 15, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Um, no. Horses in the wild didn't stay sound well into their 20s as do many well managed horses today. You are right, hay is a modern invention, humans have only been making hay for 3000 years. Prior to that horses grazed the plains harvesting their own, still standing, grass "hay". Bet it wasn't moldy or dusty.


"Um, no" to which part? 

There are many examples of horses in the wild that stay sound well into their old age, read all the barefoot research. As a rule, most pets and domesticated animals in captivity will live longer than their wild counterparts but that all has to do with wear and tear, exposure to elements, modern medicine etc. If anything, captive diet is detrimental to most horses in this country simply because most horses in this country and overfed and underworked and overfed sugars while at that.

Nobody makes hay for the horses on the range and they go barefoot just fine 

I used to have an old horse who was shoed and fed sweet grains and hay etc. He was a good horse, honest and no vices. That same horse is still doing just fine in his 30s, being worked and ridden, only now he is barefoot and only on hay with supplements, no sugars or sweet feeds, still has his teeth and all. In fact, he is way better off even though we moved to a much rockier area. He used to be a tenderfoot while wearing shoes, his hoofs are now so hard and natural looking, it is a pleasure to watch him navigate mountain trails full of rocks.

In any case, I am not out to argue, just wanted to say my two cents - it is everyone's choice what they feed their horse and whether any ole' hay will do. To me, nutrition is a science and yes, you should not over-think it but no, you should not underestimate it either. Like everything else in life, it needs balance.


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## Joshie (Dec 8, 2008)

farmerDale said:


> Hay for horses IMO is overblown in terms of the quality they MUST have. Horses survive and thrive on all kinds of quality hay. But the owners, well, they have different expectations for their babies than the horses themselves! trust me, I am married to a horse girl: It is less about what the horse needs, than what the owner thinks they need.
> 
> Just my opinion...


I beg to differ. We have ten acres in grass hay. Our boys have always gotten fat and sassy over the winter. Sometimes they gain more over the winter even though they are out on good pasture all over the summer. 

Last year the sun, drought, and hot temps wreaked havoc on our field. The hay was stemmy and looked like the grass had been too long in the field before cutting. The boys ate the hay just fine but both lost weight over the winter. We fed them a lot more than we ever had before. The teenaged boy looked awefully skinny until the pastures really got going. 

I have always heard that the later the cutting the better the hay. In fact, instead of doing halfsies on both cuttings we just let our hay guy take the whole first cutting and half of the second cutting. The first cutting is stemmier and tents to have more weeds so it is better to put it up in round bales. Our hay guy feeds it to his cattle, not his horses. 

This year the hay is beautiful and plentiful even with the drought. The sun just didn't hit it so hard. Hmmm, we have some to sell off. What are my fellow central Illinosians paying for small square bales? I know a lady who owns a boarding facility around Champaign and she has come up for it in the past. I am sure I can also sell some off to locals.


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

ognend said:


> Horses in the wild eat all sorts of things including small rocks (for minerals and calcium). These native and natural grasses contain a multitude of nutrients that may or may not be available in your "store bought hay".


Well, yes, in theory, although I also agree that "wild" horses (which isn't really a real thing in the US, they are simply feral) don't live soundly into their 20s, nor are their feet in very good condition - go to a BLM auction and judge for yourself.

But, it comes back to value - I'm not paying $5.00/bale for baled weeds and small rocks, regardless of whether my horses *could* survive on it or not. If I'm going to pay for hay, I want it to be pretty free of weeds, baled when dry, and containing no stones, since I give my horses a mineral block.


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