# Conflicted about disbudding



## VegRN (Jun 23, 2010)

I am going to be breeding my doe, and later her doeling, so I need to get my head wrapped around this disbudding thing. My doe and wether were done by the breeder. The doe's are perfect, the wether looks like he is going to have a scur on one side. My doeling was done by the vet. She may end up with a scur, too soon to tell. My bottle baby was done by the breeder. One side did not "take" and it looks like I am going to have to have it re-done. 

Is it really worth it to have them disbudded when the results are so variable? I have never seen a goat farm that did not have several goats with scurs of varying degrees. To me, I would rather see a full set of horns than scurs (from an asthetic point of view). I have nigies...if I decide not to disbud the kids am I really cutting down on the buyer pool? I have seen some with horns around here, some without. I hate to put them through the pain for no reason...we do things that are painful to our animals because it is for their own good (i.e. vaccines, spaying/neutering dogs, etc). Is this really necessary? I just don't know what to do about it!?!

I also don't know what to do about the buckling with one side that did not take. He is 6 weeks old, should I have it re-done or let him be a "unicorn"? LOL! I do not have the tools to do it myself so the vet would do it.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

Get some one to show you or find some one who is better than the people we have. I am lucky and the guy that owns little tots estates dose mine, could I do it sure, is he good enough that as long as hell take my money ill let him, you betcha. He has never had scurs. Most scurs in bucks are cause from not going far enough down, you almost have to make a second complete circle to get the whole horn bud of a buck, ill try and take some pictures of the boys I have that are still healing. Sometimes the iron doesnt get hot enough.

As far as the pain goes from what i have seen they get more ticked and holler the wost by far when they are getting shaved or realize they can not get out of the box. The iron itself kills the nerves and blood vessels fast enough that there is little pain and its brief. they are sore for a day or two but that is to me justified for never having to un-hang one out of a fence, get caught in the let with a horn. Goats also will butt each other in the wrong spots and udder/testical safety is a concern though I have not personally seen how it is but its what is said.
I used to be anti dehorning as i think the horns make great handles but having goats now without horns life is so much easier and safer.
Oh, and dont look to get any profit if the goats have horns and are dairy, its just not something that sells.


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## deineria (Aug 22, 2009)

Vets rarely do a good job - find an experienced disbudder to do the job - I would disbud. I hate it, but your buyer pool will shrink more than 1/2 and the type of home quality can diminish - sure, there are people who take excellent care and do not disbud or care if they are.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

as far as the buckling I forgot about him, depending on his size and size of horn you may not be able to do it via iron but would be a prime time to band the horn, though not my preference it may be more humane. Post pictures if you want an opinion or two


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Are you going to raise your goats in a small pen, or have them on acreage? If a small pen, horned goats aren't a problem. If, on acreage, you're going to have problems with the 'grass is always greener' on the other side, and the goats getting their heads stuck in the fence. IF your always around to monitor their activities and 'rescue' them, no problem. If not, you've got problems. My cousin raises several hundred goats adjoining my property on 400 acres. I regularly hear the screaming of stuck goats, and remove them from the net wire... sometimes I run up on a 'silent stuck goat'. Coyotes love these... rare a goat survives a night away from the barn, and the guard dogs. One of my bucklings some how escaped disbudding, and was stuck overnight... the guard dog spent the night next to him... he survived. He's found a new home... his lifespan was going to be short.... if he kept getting stuck.


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## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

To me it is a fairness thing. The goats who have their horns learn to USE them. 
They have an advantage in a mixed herd where some are disbudded. 

I think you should make a decision one way or the other and stick to it.
SOME goats do use their horns to threaten the others, and people. 
Some dont. 

For dairy goats, I would certainly disbud them. 
It is so much easier to do it when they are kids, than later when it becomes a big surgery. 
Usually done after an injury to another (especially a person).

The heads stuck in fences can be a real issue with particular (not too bright) goats too. 

You may go for a few years w/o incident from horns.
Eventually though, you will get a certain personality in the herd and sorely regret not having done the disbudding.

That has been my (hardearned) experience.


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## Wonderland (May 26, 2009)

Personally, I think disbudding is needed, and is better in the long run for the goat, because it creates a safer life for them. With horns they can hurt each other or humans (on purpose or by accident), and horns can get caught in fences. Years ago my friend was going to buy a pygmy goat, but before she could pick it up from the owner's place, it got it's horns stuck in a fence and was killed by dogs. Not a good situation. 

I have seen herds that had scurs, but I've also seen herds with NO scurs. Scurs generally occur when a disbudding isn't done correctly or at the right age. I have read that bucks are more prone to scurs that does, however.

I would say that you probably will cut down on your market to sell them if they are left with horns. People who do not want them for the fact that they can be dangerous, people who show, people who simply don't like the look, and people who don't want a mixed herd and already have dis-budded animals will not want to buy horned goats. 

Here's a great site to go read up on disbudding http://fiascofarm.com/goats/disbudding.htm 

Hope it helps!


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## VegRN (Jun 23, 2010)

I know y'all are right, it is a necessary evil. I think I just need to suck it up and learn to do it myself, but on the other hand I do not plan on breeding every year or maybe even every other year, so I am not sure it is worth it for me to invest in the equipment and maybe not even remember how to use it from one time to the next!

I will get some pics of the buckling tomorrow...maybe banding it would work. The vet I was going to use is supposedly an experienced goat vet, but who knows!


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

I know alot of folks here will not agree with me but we have had goats for 6 years now or a little longer & I do not regret having goats with horns.
I've bought a buck before than was disbudded & did get scurs, they weren't bad & I think most bucks do get them.
I have a naturally polled doe, horned doe's & doelings that we just bought & brought home a few weeks ago that are going to both have scurs. The buckling wasn't done early enough I don't believe even though the breeder said they burned him twice he will have regulat horns.

In our years with goats I have never had a problem with the goats with horns. I hate to see them with scurs that start to grow in there head & have to be snipped every so many months too.
I am one of those folks that think if god didn't want them to have horns then they would be born that way.
I do not milk my goats but have before & the horns were not in my way.

Also I sell all my babies every single year & usually need more to sell for all the folks that want them, so with horns is not a problem for me here.


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## Lada (Jun 7, 2008)

If you have any goat people around, chances are there is at least one who disbuds and does a good job. Try asking at your local extension office. Most fairs don't allow horned goats so the 4-Hers have to have someone do theirs.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

I will let you know next year if they are really a problem for the market.

We will not be dis-budding here. For several reasons. One, we are in Central Texas and it is HOT. Horns are one of the ways that goats regulate their body temperature.

(My mini-nubian girls are dis-budded, and just the slightest bit of exercise and they are PANTING. Especially MardisGras. Frankie, however, my mini-nubian wether, even though he has MUCH more hair, and was subject to a bad dis-budding job so that he does have horns, is MUCH more active. I have yet to see him pant.)

I have seen herds where the owner did not disbud, and they did not seem to have any more or fewer problems than herds that were not horned. Brie will get her head caught in fence without horns. Frankie is CONSTANTLY browsing through fence, yet he has never gotten his head caught.

For myself, I consider it an unnecessary evil. They do not habitually disbud dairy goats in Europe, and horns are one of the things they judge on the show circuit in Europe. My friends in Europe also do not have epidemic problems of goats getting stuck in fences.

The IDGR is trying to encourage people to keep horns ON in the U.S. It appears that their belief is that Americans got some idea that they didn't want their dairy goats to look like brush goats, so they got into the habit of disbudding. It started as nothing more than a fashion statement, like docking tails and ears in dogs. Or docking the tails of horses.

So, I fear that I cast my vote with Backfourty. I will not be disfiguring goats in my herd for the sake of fashion or convenience.

Those are just my own feelings. Your mileage may vary.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

My guys all have their horns as well. Just personal preference. I have been accidentally "gouged" by the oldest wether, his horns curl around backwards and if he is trying to get lovin's he might bend his head back and get you by mistake. I am more worried about those tiny sharp little hooves!!!! I don't have an opinion one way or the other about getting the horns removed, I just don't do it personally.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

~grinz~ I have gotten more minor injuries from those hooves than anything else! Note to self and others: No matter HOW much of a hurry you are in, ALWAYS take the time to put on REAL shoes and do NOT run out to feed/milk/care for goats in your flip flops!

Trust me on this.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I hate hate hate disbudding!! I pay a very nice guy to do it for me. He let's me give him a kid and he waits till I sprint all the way back to my car before he starts. 
I always feel like such a monster taking them to be done, I actually have a knot in my stomach on the drive there. 

None of my does have scurs, one buck has tiny ones and two wethers do as well. Since they are so small and wiggly I let them get knocked off by the herd. 

I do have two with horns. I got them when they were 4-5 months old. My Nubian wether I wish was disbudded since he likes to rub his head all over me. It does not hurt he just gets my hair or my clothes. His horns grow out a bit so he cannot get stuck in a fence. 
Pixie has horns and hers go straight back and she has gotten stuck in a fence when she is in heat and goes up to the buck pen being a hussy. It is cattle panels so I had to buy bolt cutters just to be able to cut her out of it. Now when I first see her go into heat, I duct tape a small pvc pipe to her head so she cannot do it. 

They do not use their horns and are actually very calm and gentle. Neither have used them on me, hooked another goat with their horns or done anything with them besides give themselves a good scratching  

I figured disbudding was the lesser of two evils since I could not do meat goats. People who buy from me are using them for 4H who does not allow horned goats, or are getting them for pets and will be around kids and do not want a goat with horns eye level to their kids and etc.
Before I found my disbudder I had a couple of kids who did not get done and I had to practically give them away. No one wanted horns. They have all heard it is bad to have them. 

Sometimes with livestock we have to do something distasteful, disbudding to me definatley is. I would love to give them a local before burning, it would help me be less of a wreck, lol.


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## saanengirl (Apr 7, 2009)

I disagree that disbudding is an unnecessary evil. Yes, horns can help with temperature regulation, but if goats have a shady place to go when it is hot they will be fine. I have had more bruises from the horned goats I work with at the university than I ever get from my own goats, even when they step on my feet. The University goats also have a tendency to get their heads stuck unless you use wire that they can't put their heads through. One of my family's first goats had horns, and she definitely used them. She used them to dominate the other goats, and frequently got her head stuck. I prefer to have my goats put their heads through the fence to eat so that they will not waste as much food. This cannot be done easily with a horned goat.

If disbudding is done correctly there should not be any scurs, even on bucks. Most bucks have a teardrop shaped hornbud so it is necessary to do a figure-eight with the disbudding iron in order to get all horn tissue. I just started disbudding my own last year (my dad did it for me until I moved 3 hours away). Since I had observed it so many times it was not difficult for me to pick it up and do it myself. This year I had five kids to disbud, four of which were bucks. The doe and two of the bucks had absolutely no scurs. The other two bucks had very small scurs which are easy to cut off with a pair of hoof trimmers.

My dad experimented with local anesthetic before disbudding, and found that the kids were more stressed because of the needles than the anesthetic helped. The nerve endings are destroyed so quickly during disbudding that they don't seem to experience much pain from the procedure overall. As another poster mentioned, they scream more from restraint and having their heads clipped than the disbudding procedure. 

In my opinion, a five minute somewhat painful procedure is better than a life of getting stuck heads and possibly maimed while stuck.


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## FullQuiverFarm (Oct 31, 2008)

It really depends on who you plan to market your goats to. If you want to sell them to children to show in 4H, most counties will not allow horned dairy goats. I use a Rhinehart x50, and it does a fantastic job. I've seen more scurs on goats that were disbudded by vets. I'm not sure why, but they don't seem to do a very good job. If you use the right tool, and dis-bud them at the right time, it really isn't hard, and they get over it extremely fast.


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## QoTL (Jun 5, 2008)

I definitely vote for disbudding.

Scurs stink, but are worth risking, imho.


Here's my horn story: I heard coyotes outside and panicked. Made dh come out with me and took a big stick. Got goats out of pen (where they do have a house but it's open) and brought them into the barn for lockup. One goat thought she might score some grain out of it, and hopped on the stand. While struggling to get her off the stand and into the stall, her horn caught my upper lip.

She missed my nose by 1/2 an inch.

I've gotten that almost exact injury twice.. the second time my dd was 'helping' with chores and I was trying to stop the goat stampede through the barn.. and leaned over at the wrong time.


Another time, while trying to lay behind me and 'love on' me, my nubian got her horn up under the elastic in my pony tail. I laugh about it but... again, could be dangerous.

I've had numerous nasty leg scratches from being in the wrong place with shorts on (now I am more careful!).

I HATE horns. If the Nubian hadn't been sold to me in milk for a steal I wouldn't have bought her. 

My buck does have a scur (he came that way) and I find it far smaller and far less dangerous than full out horns are. I like being able to give kisses and cuddles. That's much harder to do if I'm constantly watching for the head position to make sure I don't injure myself!


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## VegRN (Jun 23, 2010)

I am certainly thinking 4H will be a market for the babies I sell, so looks like I am stuck with disbudding. 

Here are some pics of the 5 week old buckling. The one on the left does not look like it took, the one on the right is flat and the scab already fallen off. Sorry if pics are not clear, DH had already left for work and it is not easy holding a squirmy buckling and taking pics!


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Okay, I am going to have to get o9n a soap box here, mainly because I feel very strongly about the topic. Therefore, bear with me on this.

*If goats have a shady spot, they will be fine. 

Sure. If you have a shady spot, you will be fine too. So why do you camp out in the air conditioning when it is hot? Yes, EVERYONE camps out in the air conditioning when it is hot, and it is not a crime nor a sin. They might be "fine" in the shade, just like you would be "fine" in the shade. However, they are more comfortable with horns, just like you are more comfortable in air conditioning.

* 5 minute procedure better than getting maimed or other horrendous problems.

It would be a five minute procedure to laser ALL of the hair off of a baby's head (probably done at the same time males are circumcised), which would prevent all sorts of possible maiming and accidents, such as hair being caught in machinery and things. Hair is used as a way to control a victim by rapists...they actually look for women with long hair....so therefore, by getting rid of hair, we're even doing the noble duty of protecting a girl child from future trauma. So why isn't THAT procedure being done?

De-horning for that reason is a management and convenience thing. People who make sure their facilities are safe and that their stock has proper room, and who regularly check their stock regularly don't seem to have that problem. What kind of fence are people using, anyway, that goats can stick their heads through it and get stuck? I check my stock several times a day and they go into a barn at night. The ONE area they COULD get their head stuck is a line of stranded wire that I am about to replace with PROPER stock fencing SUITABLE for goats. (Welded wire stock fence, 3") Especially since kids can slide right under that stranded wire.

*Avoiding injury from horned, affectionate goats...

Huh? I have had more problems having to avoid injury from my affectionate, but sharp-elbowed, husband...but I haven't insisted that he have his elbows removed YET. (maybe if he gets me in the cheek one more time while I am dead asleep...) Then again, I don't sleep with my goats...and I also accept responsibility if I fail to observe something I should have. I am certainly not going to punish my goats with amputation and disfigurement just because *I* have a habit of not being on my toes and get poked by a horn I know is there.

*It doesn't hurt them, the nerves burn quickly.

Really? Have you tried it on yourself recently? Goats, like many other animals, do not show pain like we do. A horse with a sprained shoulder doesn't whimper and scream with every step; a dog with an amputated tail doesn't cry out after that first, traumatic cut.

That doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt. It means that animals make less of a deal out of things than we do...mainly because they are taught that whimpering, crying things often become targets of other things looking for dinner.

Doesn't hurt! *snort* I have been burned with an iron before (accidentally...I am not THAT weird)...it did not "burn out the nerves quickly", it hurt like all heck and it hurt for a WHILE, and I whined, cried and complained like the pansy, wussy, wimp that I am. It hurts deer to have their horn buds burned out (A&M study done for deer ranchers and game ranchers, used electrode meters to measure nerve action and brain activity), they just don't show it. It hurts cattle. So, unless goats are in a "special" category of ruminants, it hurts them too.

*******

Now, given all of this, can a SINGLE person give me ONE benefit of disbudding that is good for the GOATS?

A benefit that is not given by things like proper fencing, adequate housing and management, and good supervision?

How does this process help the goat at all? Hmmm? Or is ONLY for the fashion, convenience, and benefit of humans?


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## coso (Feb 24, 2004)

If that were mine, I would nip that horn off and reburn. Not too big yet IMHO. Disbudding takes practice. Also in my opinion animals were put on this earth to benefit humans, so I don't see a problem, as do many others that posted before. Why does this topic always spiral downwards?


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

coso said:


> Also in my opinion animals were put on this earth to benefit humans, so I don't see a problem, as do many others that posted before. Why does this topic always spiral downwards?


Human nature. I've posted my opinion and experience multiple times. This topic always ends in the same exchange of predjudices.:teehee:
I've seen horned animals with acres and acres of room, gore and maim other horned animals. I've seen horned animals terminally injure young livestock with their horns. I've also been using extreme care and still almost lost an eye to a horn once.
Horned animals can go their whole life with injuring or being injured. They can also cause serious problems no matter what you do. 
I've had horned and disbudded goats side by side in the same barn/pasture in extremely hot weather. The horned goats were just as hot as the disbudded goats. In the average herd, thats not going to make enough difference to matter.
If we are not going to disbudd because it is(for a small amount of time) painful to the goat/cow, then we shouldn't castrate anything either. Same thing.
Livestock was put here for us to take care of to the best of our ability. In most cases for dairy goats and cows, that includes disbudding.
Opinions are opinions, everyone has one.


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

Our goats are dehorned BUT our sheep on the other hand have 2 and 4 horns! We are not talking small horns either but large Jacob horns  much bigger than goats, and they have large heavy thick fleeces till the summer when they are sheared. They free range and only once have we had one caught in a fence. He was a very young ram and was just fine.

It makes me wonder why a goat would be worse than a sheep, why they would gore another goat? Interesting thread.

BTW. We have NEVER had an injury from our sheep. Never, and yes, they do come right up to us, including all our children.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

CaliannG said:


> A benefit that is not given by things like proper fencing, adequate housing and management, and good supervision?
> 
> How does this process help the goat at all? Hmmm? Or is ONLY for the fashion, convenience, and benefit of humans?


I take it you've never seen a dairy cow gore another in the butt, just because they wanted what that one had. In acres and acres of room?? Believe me, it happens, I've seen it. I've also seen horned goats flip and throw newborn kids with their horns. Resulting in broken bones or death. Nothing to do with management, housing, or fencing. Guess I could supervise them all day long with my fly swatter.......
You don't want to disbudd, thats fine. But believe me, the animals can and are sometimes cruel to each other and it has nothing to do with their management. Most are not but it does happen.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Double posted...strange.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

To the OP, I would have your little buckling redone. It isn't too late. Scurs on bucklings are very common. The main goal is to just have very little, non-growing scurs. They never cause a problem.
Anyone who is experienced at disbudding should do a good enough job that does have none or very little scurring and bucks very minimal scurring. Now, this does not always include vets, because vets do not have to live with the results of their disbudding jobs, so some may never know to change their tactics. This is the main reasons that experienced breeders usually do a much better job than vets.
Believe me, if you intend to market to the show(4-H or bigger shows), dairy, or pet market, you will want them disbudded for that reason alone. Not to mention the ease of handling dairy goats without horns. Little scurs are not a problem, though you should have very few of them. 
Anyway, disbudding is something I do to every kid born here. Its a part of my management. Everyone does it differently.


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

ozark_jewels said:


> I take it you've never seen a dairy cow gore another in the butt, just because they wanted what that one had. In acres and acres of room?? Believe me, it happens, I've seen it. I've also seen horned goats flip and throw newborn kids with their horns. Resulting in broken bones or death. Nothing to do with management, housing, or fencing. Guess I could supervise them all day long with my fly swatter.......
> You don't want to disbudd, thats fine. But believe me, the animals can and are sometimes cruel to each other and it has nothing to do with their management. Most are not but it does happen.


Is it an aggression issue though? Should these aggressive goats not be culled? Maybe some goats are just more gentle than others. Possibly certain breeds or breeding management may affect this, I don't know, but it's an interesting thought.
If I had an aggressive ram. He would be gone, period. None of my goats seem aggressive at all, but I can't comment on goring as I have never experienced that. How horrible.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Ahhh, Emily, I am actually NOT against people dis-budding their animals, whether that be goats, sheep, cows or gazelles. What I AM against, in just about every topic or situation, is hypocrisy.

I have seen dairy cows with horns gore another. I have seen bulls attempt to gore ME. Cattle are bred for production and, unfortunately, bad temperaments are NOT culled if production is high. In commercial herds of ANYTHING, be that cattle, sheep, goats, or White Tailed Deer, temperament SHOULD be the first thing bred for, especially considering the conditions many of those animals are kept in, but unfortunately it often takes a back seat to other traits.

The hypocrisy I see in this is that the practice is for the well-being of the goats. It is not. The practice is for the well-being of humans. I don't mind people doing thing to the animals that they keep for the well being of humans, but call it what it is. Don't try to sugar-coat it with a layer of animal altruism.

Some people believe that animals were put on this planet to serve humans, and therefore, no matter HOW badly they treat those animals, it is ethical because ALL animals are the "property" of humans, to do with as we please.

I do not believe this philosophy to be true. I believe that humans, plants, animals, insects, etc., are each here to perform a function that benefits each other...a symbiotic relationship. Is plankton here to serve us? If so, then it is alright for us to kill it all off, right? But if we do that, we will basically be committing suicide, as plankton is what provides over 70% of the oxygen we breathe.

It seems to me that one should treat that which we depend upon for life with care and respect. If your parents give you a house, buy all of your food, and pay your bills, do you treat them badly? Do you decide that since they provide all of these things for you, then you must be more important than they are and you have the right to abuse them and harm them?

If every human were to disappear off of the face of this planet, the plants and animals will do FINE. Goats, as a species, will not become extinct without us to cut their hay for them. Corn will not disappear without us to cultivate it. In fact, all of the plants and animals will likely do far better without our "care". There is not a single species out there, from the smallest bacteria to the largest elephant, that depends upon us for its existence.

However, if the plants and animals all disappeared, we would die QUICKLY. We would not only have nothing to eat, we would have nothing to breathe, we would be poisoned by the very water. (Plants filter toxins out of the water supply) WE depend upon THEM, they do not depend upon us, for existence.

That does not sound like a situation that equates "they were placed here to serve us". That sounds more like a situation that was meant to teach us respect for creatures that are less than us.

Yeah, we have the power to destroy them, but in the process, we destroy ourselves.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

I had it done for the convenience of human me and also so I don't have to keep them locked up all the time...or purchase all new fencing that I don't have the money for. I hated it while it was being done and for a while afterwords. I actually waited in the truck and had my hubby take them in where it was being done. I'm sure I didn't hate it as much as they did! But we are all over it now and everyone is living a wonderful life. I even had my house cats declawed. I know..I'm terrible.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Well then, Caliann, I have no problem with your post. I disbudd for my convenience and because my experience leads me to not believe it is cruel. I may not agree with your philosophy, but thats ok.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Our Little Farm said:


> Is it an aggression issue though? Should these aggressive goats not be culled? Maybe some goats are just more gentle than others. Possibly certain breeds or breeding management may affect this, I don't know, but it's an interesting thought.
> If I had an aggressive ram. He would be gone, period. None of my goats seem aggressive at all, but I can't comment on goring as I have never experienced that. How horrible.



Sometimes it aggressive animals. Sometimes its a very calm animal that just decides it wants something that another has. Hard to say. Of course over-aggressive animals should be culled.
We cull our goats, cows, etc for temperment. 
I've never seen a goat gore another. Beat on, throw kids, catch legs, yes. But never gore. Most goat horns are not in a goring position. Unlike cattle horns that grow to the front. I'm sure goats could gore if they try hard enough, but most opt for other uses for their horns.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

CaliannG said:


> I have seen dairy cows with horns gore another. I have seen bulls attempt to gore ME. Cattle are bred for production and, unfortunately, bad temperaments are NOT culled if production is high.


I agree, it should be. I just sent a beautiful young Jersey/Holstien cow to slaughter because she has tried to rough me up several times. No excuses for that behaviour. Here, if your mean, you're meat!


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Here, if it is mean, be it goat, chicken, dog, parrot, or whatever, it is gone. I don't want to have to deal with mean critters.

~smiles~ If we all thought the same way, believed the same things, and felt the same way about everything, conversation would certainly be boring, wouldn't it? It would consist of nothing but, "Yeah, me too."

Oh, and M, I have a declawed cat too. She has a habit of liking to sleep on the parrot perches. Rather than having to constantly worry that she was going to bat at a bird, accidentally scratch it, and I'd end up with $3000 worth of dead bird, I went ahead and got her declawed. My cats don't go outside anyway.

But I *did* shell out the extra $290 (for a sum total of a $440 surgery) to get JUST the claws removed, rather than the more common declawing surgery that amputates the tips of the toes.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Oh, and I have to say one more thing about dairy cows. The butt goring can happen even with the nicest cows. We have four horned Jersey home milkers. They are all very sweet, temperments very nice. But when it comes to the every so once in a while jockying for herd queen position or their newborn calves, we still get cows with ribs scraped and butts gored, even with very good temperments. So it is not always an improper culling that is at fault either. Animals will be animals and there will always be instincts and things to fight about at times.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

I used to be pro-horn. I am not anymore after seeing what goats can and do to eachother. I believe having horns gives a goat higher status within a herd and even though they may not neccessarily actually be aggressive in nature, they can get very bossy because they can get away with it. I also have seen many babies get flipped and thrown around and injured by horned does. 
My friend's boer doe was gored in the side but another horned doe, killing her by slow internal bleeding. 
I have seen a horned goat in with older non-horned goats and the goat with the horns viciously slashing, ramming, and ripping at the others. Only a matter of time before one of the non-horned goats comes up missing an eye, is severely injured, or killed. 
I have had to cut fences to get horned goats unstuck. 
Take a horned goat and a non-horned goat that have the same coat type, color, same pasture, etc. and take their temperatures when it's hot and I'd bet there won't be any difference. Unless that horned goat has a 2-4Â° difference, it's not significant enough to argue that point. 

I think that pretty well covers "the good of the GOATS". 

I won't buy one with horns. I will not have horns here. All kids are disbudded and I have learned how to disbud quite well by neccessity. I most certainly agree that the kids feel plenty of pain but it's over very quickly (plus I give Banamine an hour beforehand) and the kids are playing like nothing happened within minutes. Disbudding used to make me almost ill and shake but now that I know how, I'd rather disbud than tattoo.
And for myself, I like to cuddle and love on my goats and am happy that I'm not risking facial injury to do so, and I will continue to disbud my goats for the good of ALL involved. And if I do say so myself, my goats look darn good for being "disfigured".


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

KimM said:


> And for myself, I like to cuddle and love on my goats and am happy that I'm not risking facial injury to do so, and I will continue to disbud my goats for the good of ALL involved. And if I do say so myself, my goats look darn good for being "disfigured".



I Snuggle, Love on all my goats & kisses too. That goes for the adults & kids-with or without horns & have never had a facial injury yet.



Here in our State or at least my county & the surrounding counties if you goat is a Nigerian Dwarf or any mini breed of goat then it's not required to be disbudded to be shown at the county fairs.
I sold 2 little doelings last year & 1 took 1st place best of show in the Nigerian class & the other one took 3rd place. This was at the county fair the next county over from us.


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## coso (Feb 24, 2004)

I think experience comes into play too. I have been around goats since the early 70's. Since I can remember dad had dairy goats or a dairy cow, now I have them, and I'm 40 Emily has been raised with them all her life also I think. Some folks have a Disney expectation of how animals are. They are animals and will act in a Darwinian way. Thankfully humans do not have to do that. My .02


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## SueMc (Jan 10, 2010)

I raised purebred Nubians for more than 20 years and freshened 20 to 30 does per year. I disbudded every goat born. I used a disbudding box and an iron meant for baby goats. I never had one develop a scur so don't think the results are variable if done correctly. I think if you burn an even ring you will always have good results. A disbudding box is essential and cheap and easy to build. 
That being said, I do think it has to hurt the babies. Any burn has got to hurt. I never did buy doctors saying that circumcision didn't hurt baby boys either (used to be a labor/del nurse). I will say that the baby goats started screaming as soon as they are confined in the box but then seem fairly unfazed once released and returned to their mothers or given a bottle.
As much as I wasn't fond of disbudding, it was part of owning and raising goats, IMHO. I was absolutely convinced after a friend found one of her horned does hung in a fence by her horns and nearly dead. 
Like nearly everything else in this life though, disbudding is a choice to be made by the individual and there is probably no right or wrong. If the buckling were mine, I would reburn. If you band this time of year you will need to watch the site very closely for fly infestation.


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## SueMc (Jan 10, 2010)

Backfourty said:


> I Snuggle, Love on all my goats & kisses too. That goes for the adults & kids-with or without horns & have never had a facial injury yet.



Be careful with the goat kisses! I had the absolute worst case of poison ivy on my face and neck from my favorite Nubian kisser!


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

Note: I don't mean to step on any toes or offend anyone, but I too would like to see less convenience and more animal welfare in our society, and feel it is important to discuss these matters.
Many of our European conveniences regarding animals come from the states, so I feel it is all going in the wrong direction. 



CaliannG said:


> For myself, I consider it an unnecessary evil. They do not habitually disbud dairy goats in Europe, and horns are one of the things they judge on the show circuit in Europe. My friends in Europe also do not have epidemic problems of goats getting stuck in fences.


That's exactly right! I live in Norway and have five pet goats. None of them are disbudded, neither is the buck used to have. Petting zoos almost always have dwarf goats, never disbudded. Sometimes you will se naturally polled goats though. I've been to several tourist farms with goats, never see a disbudded one. 
My goats use their horns mainly for scratching themselves at places they don't have a chance to reach without their horns.
They do use them on eachother too, for fighting (only seen that once in a fresh mama) for playing, and for asserting themselves within their group. That means the kids get some rough handling when they don't pay attention to their elders, but I've yet to see a kid scared or injured from it. It's just the way of goats. If I ever had a goat injure another in that fashion, it would be culled.


There are, however, intensive milk farms that do disbud at a young age - they do this because (and these are there own words) cramped conditions in winter cause fighting. In Norway this (and castration) is always done by a veterinarian under general AND local anaesthetic, anything else is illegal. The kids are given painkillers afterwards.



CaliannG said:


> *It doesn't hurt them, the nerves burn quickly.
> 
> Really? Have you tried it on yourself recently? Goats, like many other animals, do not show pain like we do. A horse with a sprained shoulder doesn't whimper and scream with every step; a dog with an amputated tail doesn't cry out after that first, traumatic cut.
> 
> ...


Actually, I recently read a paper on methods of castration and disbudding from an ethical point of view, that concentrated on pain and risk of infection, where they talked a lot about pain in goats and other ruminants. They will very rarely cry out, but they will show other signs of pain for a long time after being banded, disbudded or castrated via burdizzo. They observed grinding teeth, lying around more, walking different, behaving more or less aggressively than usual and a rise in cortisol levels, heart beat and blood pressure. Of course it hurts, I'm sure it hurts like all h*ll!
Banding is illegal here because of the animals welfare, and this is based on the findings of Molony et al. 1995 and Robertson et al 1994.

Maybe interesting to some: docking, cropping, declawing and debarking is also illegal in Norway and many other European countries.


I will not do anything harmful to an animal just because it is more convenient for me. But then I don't crate my dogs either.


Edited, because I forgot to say:
If you already have disbudded goats, it's simply not fair to leave some with horns. They should all have them, or none. Horns can indeed be very harmful within a herd if the victim doesn't have any means of defense.


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

Several years ago, I visited one dairy herd that had horns......and saw several animals wth hernias (caused by the horns of other goats), and the owner lamented one that was recently killed by another goat. Since she was not there when it happened, she did not know which goat was the "culprit."

That was all it took to convince me that I would always disbud.

To say that disbudding is done only for the benefit of the humans is, IMO, is a "mountain-sized" load of "compost." 

Just because something has never happened on your farm does not mean that it has not happened somewhere else. 

Sort of like the person who says....."I have never been struck by lighting, so I will continue to play golf in this "thunder and lightning" storm." 

Oh, someone culls goats that are "mean." How kind were you to the other goat that may have been injured by those horns???

I have had life-threatening "conditions" that involved some pretty painful procedures, including the amputation of my leg. If the leg was not amputated, my body would be in a grave somewhere right now.

I am a firm believer that some temporary pain is NOT some justufiable reason not to do something that can prevent potential problems in the future!!!! 

I have invested money into improving the quality of my herd. I try to provide the safest and best envirnment for my animals. IMO, it seems llike it would be pretty dumb to leave them with potential weapons sitting on top of the heads.... 

IMO, some temporary pain is some justification for preventing much more serious problems in the future is very short-sighted and "pollyannish" thinking.

If one chooses to have horns, that is their business.......but to pretend that you justify it by being kinder or "more humane," is total nonsense!!

IMO, it makes as much sense as someone in the ER, having a heart atack....and refusing an IV ......because "those needle hurt."

Bill.......just my opinion


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

I was just going to post on here how well this thread turned out and how folk were able to give their opinions and the reason for it without all the mud slinging and 'manure' remarks......


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

Geiss, yours is an interesting post coming from a different country and sharing the laws there.

Thank you.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

I saw no "mud-slinging" or "manure" remarks. Only another honest and open opinion. 





Our Little Farm said:


> I was just going to post on here how well this thread turned out and how folk were able to give their opinions and the reason for it without all the mud slinging and 'manure' remarks......


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

CaliannG said:


> It seems to me that one should treat that which we depend upon for life with care and respect. If your parents give you a house, buy all of your food, and pay your bills, do you treat them badly? Do you decide that since they provide all of these things for you, then you must be more important than they are and you have the right to abuse them and harm them?


Heh, that'd be my sister's philosophy.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

I'm just thankful I live in a country where I can do my own doctoring, castration and disbudding. 
Its interesting the difference in ideas that come from those with "pet" goats and those that come from ones with "working" goats. Not bad, just interesting. 
I agree with coso, a lot of it is experience, just like with anything. You use your experience to come up with your opinions, I use mine to come up with my opinions. Different type experiences=different opinions.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

Heritagefarm said:


> Heh, that'd be my sister's philosophy.


LOL!! Some of my siblings as well!!


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

SueMc said:


> Be careful with the goat kisses! I had the absolute worst case of poison ivy on my face and neck from my favorite Nubian kisser!




Now that's exactly what I don't need! We have alot of woods & I thought I saw poison ivy in the boys pasture the other day but Dh said it wasn't. So far never seen any here but can't look ever every inch either!
Thanks for the input, I'll watch closer now!


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

coso said:


> Also in my opinion animals were put on this earth to benefit humans, so I don't see a problem, as do many others that posted before. Why does this topic always spiral downwards?


The topic can sprial downward due to human arrogant statements like you made. I do not think because we are supposedly the most intelligent species everything on this planet is ours to do with as we wish. Respect is the key as we all have to live here. 
Also it spirals down since people on both sides of the fence have strong feelings towards their personal choice. It can sometimes feel like the other side is trying to make you change your mind and do it their way. I say do what you feel comfortable doing with your own animals. 

I disbud for a few reasons, the market I sell to which is quite a few 4H people, kids who would be eye level with a goat horn, people who want pets, and people who have read up on dairy goats and have read their goats should not have horns. 
Like I said I hate disbudding but going dairy in this area means disbudded goats. The ones with horns do not sell well, they go for much less if you can even sell them at all. 

My two horned goats are some of the nicest in the bunch. It is a few of the disbudded ones who knock the others around sometimes during feeding and when a few are in heat. If it was a constant thing they would be out of here. The two horned ones never pay attention to that stuff, they are calm and could careless. I do not think it is unfair to the rest of the herd of 30 plus disbudded goats that these two have horns. They get along very well with them. 
Will I de-horn these two? No to me they are far too old to have it done without alot of pain and I do not plan on selling them.


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

I guess my post was somewhat controversial......

I could care less what somene else does with the horns on their goats.

I just get tired of anyone claiming it to be "more humane," when I have seen first-hand the damage that can be done with those horns.

If anyone wants to have horns on their goats, more power to them!!!


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

I am thankful that we finally are left with only one truly horned mature animal in our herd. If she keeps up being a nuisance I may decide to band them this winter. I keep figuring she ought to die soon, so I just leave it be. She is an older Boer cross doe who doesn't get her head stuck regularly.
Beyond that there are a couple of young does who will have one horn or scurs banded this winter.
I did not have to disbud all of the kids born this year thanks to our naturally polled herdsire and his polled daughters, but I have disbudded well over 100 head of kids this year.
Finding a beautiful meat wether hanging dead in the fence a few years back was it. After that I said no horns..even on the meat wethers. We lost over $100 on that goat because of his horns.
Horns do not work in our management style. Just the way it is. So I take the little bit of time when they are young and disbud. They get over it quite quickly. We have over 200 head of goats on the place....one full set of horns, one unicorn , quite a few with small scurs, and one doe with two serious scurs.
Every time I work Twyla, the horned doe, I come away with fresh bruises.
I almost lost my eye to a horned doe. She was sick and jerked her head. I lucked out. 
I have seen cows gored by other horned cows. I have seen the ripped vulvas and the ripped sides. All preventable by simply disbudding the calves at less than two months of age. Or using Polled animals.
It really comes down to your choice of management.


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## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

Question, if you breed a naturally polled goat to another naturally polled goat, will you get only polled kids? Or os that wishful dreaming?


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

For some reason, they lose fertility.


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

As for the humane part - there I have only one thing to say with regards to what is more humane or not. Besides the whole discussion of disbudding or not - they DO feel a whole heap of pain and that pain should be well managed! This also goes for banding and burdizzo and any other painful procedure we may perform on our animals. Yes, they do forget and yes they live on - but IMO they deserve to be treated as humanely and pain-free as we can manage.



Shrarvrs88 said:


> Question, if you breed a naturally polled goat to another naturally polled goat, will you get only polled kids? Or os that wishful dreaming?


Naturally polled goats have issues with hermaphrodism. The paper I mentioned also discussed other ways to achieve lack of horns and there they concluded that polled goats are not a good option in breeding. I will try to translate from Norwegian, I hope it will be understandable.

The article can be found on this link, but it is in Norwegian:
http://www.vkm.no/dav/613105f464.pdf
The title is "Animal welfare consequences of dehorning and castration of calves and kids" and authors are:
"Ad hoc-group: Jon M. Arnemo1, Terje Fjeldaas2, Nina Fjerdingby3, H. Andreas Haga4, Birgit Ranheim5, & Tormod ÃdnÃ¸y6"

Excerpt from the article follows.

"*Selection for polled goats - consequences for intersex*
In polled goats hermaphrodism is a problem - doelings will for a good part have clear buck-like features and as adult does they will not be usable in milk production.
In the goat, the position of the DNA that leads to polled goat and intersex (Polled Intersex Syndrome &#8211; PIS) is found by Vaiman et al. (Vaiman et al. 1996;Vaiman et al. 1999).
They place it in chromosome 1 (CHI1). The newest research shows that PIS in goat comes from a deletion that leads to absent coding for a chromosome area (Pailhoux et al. 2001). 
There are (at least) two different genes responsible, one for polled/horned and one for intersex, that are both "knocked out" by the deletion. While the gene for polled is dominant, the gene for intersex is recessive and must therefore be inherited by both parents in order to be expressed.

These latest published results completes the sum-up Syrstad (1991) made when it comes to the effect of a goat being polled, based on among others Haugen (1960). He summed up like this:

a. The trait "polled" in goats is controlled by an autosomal dominant gene.
(Comment: we now know that PIS switches off the gene for horns.)
b. The same gene is responsible for most cases of intersex in polled goats. This effect is recessive and is only seen in animals that are genetically female.
(Comment: PIS also switches off one of the genes that are important for the development of the doe and leads to hermaphrodism/intersex.)
c. The imbalanced gender distribution (too many males) in many goat populations is due to the fact that a great portion of the intersex animals are erroneously classified as males.
d. About half of the genetic males that are homozygote for the polled gene are completely sterile.
e. Polled does are more fertile than horned females.

The newest results (Vaiman et al. 1997) confirms point c above: in 13 cases of polled intersex animals, all of them were genetically female. New information about the genes that control horns and gender formation in goats has come about recently. Consequences of PIS+ and PIS-/- variants for 2-3 genes that control the earlier formation of ovaries and horn buds from embryonic stage have been shown (Pannetier et al. 2005)
For goats (female), homozygote PIS-/- will lead to the formation of testicles early in fetal development, only 4-5 days after normal males (Pailhoux et al. 2005).
[....]
The fact that half of the homozygote polled bucks are sterile (point d above) and that polled does give bith to more kids than horned (point e) is confirmed by studies in the 60ies and 70ies, but we have not found results from such studies in more recent litterature. Haugen (190) advises to use horned (or dehorned) bucks in breeding to avoid the intersex problem. With heterozygote polled does in the herd, the result should be half polled kids, and these could be used in breeding."


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

The concern comes in when you have a homozygous polled female...one of the stats I heard places that at a 1 in 8 chance. These homozygous polled females tend to be hermaphrodites.
Polled is dominant, so they need only one Polled gene to be Polled. The concern comes in when Polled is bred to Polled. Usually this is Heterozygous to Heterozygous (one gene for Polled and one gene for horned).
So just using one Polled parent will give you about half Polled and half horned when bred to another horned goat. Rudy has thrown about half and half over his years. A quick easy way to knock a bunch of horns off.
There are breeders who have bred Polled to Polled for years and see no more occurances of hermies than they have with horned to horned matings.
Hermaphrodites still have meat on them. ;o)
We use horned bucks over our Polled Rudy daughters/granddaughters.


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## farmerjohn (Jun 11, 2010)

I read somewhere-can't say exactly-in an article that if you have the horn bud area cut open within days of birth and "pop out" that horn bud that it will not attach itself to the skull and develop into a horn. I was going to ask on here if anyone had read/heard/done that but have been doing other things. Like getting more goats!

Sooo-how old or should I say young should a goat be if you were to band a horn? A scur horn? How long does it take to fall off? Where should the band be placed at on the horn? What does it look like or are there any problems if it was once burned and then banded?


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

billooo2 said:


> If one chooses to have horns, that is their business.......but to pretend that you justify it by being kinder or "more humane," is total nonsense!!


Wow, do you have studies to back up that it is nonsense not to disbud, or that it is inhumane?

Or is what you have to work with your own, personal experience?

You see, I live in beef and boer country. About 6 miles away from me are no less than 8 Boer farms. EVERYONE raises Boer goats around here (one of the reasons it is so difficult to find a decent dairy goat!).

No one that I know of disbuds their Boer goats. Oh, I am sure that in some areas, it is common practice, but no one HERE does. In fact, there is a hot debate going on here whether horns that curve under next to the neck are better than horns that curve out and up.

So with all of those horned goats around, WHY aren't they having a problem with hernias, gorings, being stuck in fences, etc.? These are mainly cattle people that got into Boers as a sideline for profit....believe you me, to them, the bottom line is EVERYTHING and they don't hold with stuff that causes a loss of stock. Every kid or calf is wonderful, sacred, and needs to be saved!

(Few months ago, there was a HUGE coyote hunt and poisoning because THREE calves were lost to predators in the county.)

The same with horned cattle. Now, the cattle around here are beef cattle, I admit, but they all have horns. Some of them are crossed with Mexican longhorns (for hardiness, pest, and disease resistance) and have HUGE horns. Sets of horns that are longer than I am tall.

These cattle are all over the place. Fellow has a herd across the street from me. There is another herd behind me. When I go into town, most of what I am passing are herds upon herds of cattle, until I get to the Boer farms and then the fish farm.

So why am I NOT seeing gored, bleeding, herniated, scarred up, ripped up cattle and goats all of the time? Why haven't I seen a single cow or goat with their horns stuck in the fence? 

Why aren't my friends in Austria and Germany seeing gored, bleeding, herniated, scarred up, ripped up cattle and dairy goats all the time where they are?

If it is such a HUGE problem with dairy goats and dairy cattle, _why isn't it just as much a problem in other countries, or with Spanish goats, Boer goats, angora goats, cashmere goats, beef cattle, heritage cattle, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum?_

The meat goat industry in this country does NOT disbud. The cashmere goat industry, as well as the mohair goat industry, does not disbud. The same industries, as well as the dairy goat industry, in Australia does NOT disbud. _Why aren't all these industries in all places suffering from these problems everyone keeps saying is rampant in horned goats?_

Why aren't the commercial goat industries in Africa practicing disbudding? Or the commercial goat industries in India? China? Polynesia? Russia? None of those places have "pollyanna" laws against it, so if goring, killing of kids, injuries, etc., from horns is such a problem, _why are WE the only country that habitually disbuds....and why is it only REALLY prevalent in show/hobbyist areas, and not in all of the commercial industries? _

~smiles~ Come on, people...give me some numbers. Some real statistics. What is the percentage loss in a commercial herd due to injuries or fatalities directly related to horns? ANY horned commercial herd ANYWHERE, be that a dairy herd in Iceland or a Spanish herd in New Mexico.

Show me ANY study which had a conclusion that a commercial herd that disbudded or banded had fewer looses and injuries then it had in its previous, horned status. Heck, show me studies that even compared these problems in horned, commercial herds and non-horned, commercial herds where the conclusion was that the non-horned herd had fewer losses and injuries.

I am willing to be converted! Show me facts and numbers that prove that not having horns is safer and healthier for my goats, and I will go out and start banding *today*.

~smiles again~ I await ya'lls replies.


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## coso (Feb 24, 2004)

You are not giving any studies either just your observations. Boer goats horns grow differently then dairy goats do. In other countries, and on big farms, losses are accepted as part of the industry. My .02. Everyone has an opinion. Everyone has there own experiences and opinions. Different parts of the country and different countries manage in different ways. I believe this thread needs to die at this point. Moderator please ????


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

CaliannG said:


> Wow, do you have studies to back up that it is nonsense not to disbud, or that it is inhumane?
> 
> Or is what you have to work with your own, personal experience?
> 
> ...


If you want to have horns......go ahead!!! I could care less what you do with horns on your animals.

If you are comparing the horns on a Boer to an Alpine?.......have you ever seen a full gown set of Alpine horns???? IMO, it is like comparing a Chevrolet S-10 pick-up truck to a Peterbilt semi-tractor. :shrug: 

I do not have the slightest clue what cows have to do with this discussion......I do recall takng care of a couple patients in the hospital who were gored by bulls.:shrug:

Funny, the last time I saw a web site for dairy goats in Australia, I did not see any horns on their goats.:shrug:

You are the one who wants to see studies.....where are they that show that horns on Alpine dairy goats are not a problem?? When I see a herd with horns, and a number of hernias.....and a recently killed goat......I do not wait to see some "study" to verify what I have seen with my own eyes.

Gee, why is it that all the county fairs that I know of around this area require that Boer goats in 4H be dsbudded??? 

If you have not seen such results from horns, why would you find fault with my practices.....since I have seen those exact problems??? 

Just because some cultures do not do something, I do not see where that means that it is a superior practice. :shrug: To each their "own." I want to provide the safest possible enironment possible for my animals. 

Bill......no horns allowed here!!......but he does not care at all what you do with horns at your place!!


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

http://www.lownadairy.com/

http://www.britishalpines.co.uk/

http://www.goldenguernsey.co.uk/

http://www.holdbrookherd.co.uk/

http://goatstud.com/index.html

http://dairygoatsqld.org.au/index.htm

http://www.alltinnis.com.au/index.html

http://www.osmentdairygoats.co.nz/

http://www.anbsnz.org.nz/bucks_at_stud.htm

not saying anything either way but as far as around the world, all of the sites I can find are full of goats with no horns.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

I just have one more thing to say, and that is that Boer horns are NOTHING like dairy horns. The two cannot be compared.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

Seems like in the UK you are required to use pain relief or have them knocked out for disbudding:

http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformatio...views/PainProc/P02PainPrevGoat_Disbudding.htm

Ack in looking around I now want some of these  lol

http://www.justkiddin.com.au/index.html


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## shiandpete.1 (Aug 13, 2008)

Around where I am it is difficult to sell dairy goats that are horned..we disbud all babies that hit the ground here..I really think it is a matter of preference and management. Our fair allows horned goats if it is part of their breed standard, with a dairy goat it is not a breed standard, pygmies, boer and fiber goats it is fine.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Okay from spending quit a bit of time searching it seems that in "western" countries where there is more showing and such, there are more goats without horns. In poorer countries where there are small herds of goats that support their families in meat and milk there are more goats with horns. Possibly due to the people not being able to afford the disbudding equipment or they can risk the possibility of infection or because a lot of time a family member herds and tends the goats all day and so if they get tangled in brush they can't get out of there is someone who can untangle them, or maybe they just have different kinds of fencing that they don't get caught in or maybe their goats are smarter than ours, or who knows. But there are definitely areas where the goats all do fine with horns and areas where they keep the horns off. 

Just like everything else what works for one, doesn't always work for another.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Those are adorable Thai


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

OBF, did you check out the "Breed" link in the second link you posted?

http://www.britishalpines.co.uk/thebreed.htm

Check out the picture of the Founding Doe (Sedgmere Faith) of the breed, the picture was from 1903 or so.

The actual WORD "dehorn" did not even come into being until 1885-90... words seldom predate the practices they actually describe.  Therefore, I am wondering if your British Alpines, as opposed to others labeled "Alpines", are not a naturally polled breed? Dehorning (or disbudding, if you prefer) was not even a common practice in the U.S. (where it originated) in the early 1900's.

As for those demanding studies, well I will humor you a little. Although I believe that, following the rules of debate, it is YOU who wish to cause change to the natural condition of the goat, and therefore the burden of proof that such change is beneficial is on YOU, not the ones who believe the goat should be left in its natural state.

However, I don't expect you to even know the rules of debate, much less follow them, therefore, here are a few studies for you:

Commercial feasibility of disbudding large meat herds: http://uvalde.tamu.edu/staff/Machen5.htm

Hmmm, while rambling through some of the studies at South Dakota State University Extension, I ran across an item that said that for showing dairy goats, you "deodorize" male goats by burning out the scent glands near the horn buds at the same time you disbud them? Does anyone do this?

Interestingly enough, the U.K. is one of the few European countries that DO practice disbudding:

" Whilst dehorning or disbudding of young animals is acceptable under EU Regulation 1804/1999 for reasons of safety and by permission from the certifying body, the general rule is that routine dehorning is forbidden. Most other European countries appear to interpret the Regulation so that derogation for dehorning, even in young stock, is acceptable only as an exception. So far, the UK certifying bodies have allowed routine disbudding/dehorning in organic herds without specific permission as long as the operation is carried out under existing animal welfare regulations."

That is from this article on animal housing: http://www.organicvet.co.uk/Cattleweb/health/hous.htm

~shrugs~ There is not much in studies done on goats, period, however, from what I can find, disbudding is commonly done in goat dairies in the U.S., Canada, and the U.K., supposedly to prevent problems in the milking parlor (not fences, not gorings while grazing, not to keep people's eyes from being poked out, but to prevent them from catching on the edges of stanchions in milking parlors and slowing down milking), and that Texas A&M did ONE study on whether or not it would be a good idea for meat and fiber herd breeders to practice it and only found two reasons for them to do so:

1. If they had inadequate or improper fencing and couldn't afford to replace it.
2. If they were producing wethers for 4-H or other shows.

Nothing about doing it if they had stock losses from injuries and accidents from horns. Nothing about protecting polled stock. Nothing about all of the stuff everyone here has been screaming about. Simply if you are too cheap/broke to have the right fencing, or if you plan to sell to the people who are going to show. 

In other words, no REAL reason.

And yes, Boer goats don't have the same, spectacular horns that say, a Nubian or Toggenburg might have, but Spanish Goats, Cashmere Goats, etc., DO have splendid horns. Boers are not the ONLY commercially bred meat goat in the world.

Now, ya'lls turn. Got any studies? Statistics? YOU are the ones that want to change the way the animal is, do you have ANY scientific evidence on why such a change is GOOD for a goat? Again, I stand ready to be convinced and willing to change my opinion should ANYONE present me with some scientific evidence.

I'll change my mind if you show me evidence. Would you? If I showed you scientific evidence, would you change your mind, or would you demand the thread be closed? 

-- Still willing to be convinced.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

shiandpete.1 said:


> Around where I am it is difficult to sell dairy goats that are horned..we disbud all babies that hit the ground here..I really think it is a matter of preference and management. Our fair allows horned goats if it is part of their breed standard, with a dairy goat it is not a breed standard, pygmies, boer and fiber goats it is fine.


Yes, horns on dairy goats seem to be viewed as a major sin... I personally would prefer horns left on my packgoat, but what if he butted one of the does?


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

thaiblue12 said:


> Ack in looking around I now want some of these  lol
> 
> http://www.justkiddin.com.au/index.html


OhhhSo cute!~ I want one toooooooooo:bouncy:


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

It looks like one study on meat goats.....and one on cattle......

Did I miss something????....none on dairy goats???

Am I supposed to care about some beauracrats in some foreign country????

I love to hear about animals in their "natural state." I believe that would mean living in a wilderness area......never having contact with humans.....

As I have said, "I could care less what you do with your animals..."

I don't have the time to go read a bunch of articles, but I did find that the USDA has a study going on now to look at the goat indusry:
http://nahms.aphis.usda.gov/goats/Goat09_Objectives.pdf

You want to see a study on injuries caused by horned goats.....if the study is done by a major institution, then the study proposal would need to go through an ethics committee.
Criteria would need to be set:
1. What nature of injuries would need to be considered "significant?"
e.g. life threatening vs. maiming vs. disfiguring vs. painful (and what level of pain, and how would it it mesured?)
2. What level of occurrence will be considered significant over the course of the study? 1 animal/100 animals/year vs. 25 animals/100 animals/year ???
3. Since goats on live 10-12 years, would a 1 year study be relevant?
4. If injuries or deaths occur, at what point should the study be terminated?
5. Since the potential for injury is a 24 hour risk, what accomoodtions are being taken to provide24 hour monitoring for death or injury?

Do you think it would even get approval by an ethics committee....?????....especially if they were to see a 300# fully horned Alpine buck in rut!!

I did come across this......even Planet Green does not seem opposed to disbudding:
http://planetgreen.discovery.com/home-garden/disbud-dairy-goats.html

I am wondering.....if one person who has never seen an goat killed or injured by another horned goat......why do they think that their lack of experience makes their opinion superior to someone who hs seen such injuries????

Bill....just wondering......and waiting on studies on Dairy Goats...:shrug:


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## VegRN (Jun 23, 2010)

Wow, did not mean to start a controversy. In my case disbudding is a necessary evil because I really would like to market to 4-H programs. I was really only lamenting how common scurs seem to be, at least in my area. 

I am going to have the buckling re-burned. Have to have a vet do it, can't find someone close by to help and I am certainly not trusting the breeder who botched it the first time around (I had a feeling something was wrong when I picked him up, it looked different even then, but she assurred me it was fine...grrr...) Hopefully before my does get bred and kid I can find someone to help out, or else convince my DH to let me spring for the equipment and learn to do it myself. 

Thanks for everyone's opinions and input.


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## sevendogs (Jul 18, 2010)

We are with goats for ten years now. Two our does are disbudded ones, we bought them this way. However, I saw many goat owners, who never disbud their goats and they did not think it was needed. We have all goats of our breeding disbudded. I never had any problems with horns and they seem look pretty and natural.


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

Had (HAD) a dairy doe here who, for some reason, escaped disbudding as a kid. As an adult, she turned out to be a fabulous milker. However, I witnessed her trying to gore other does IN THE UDDER. I wrapped ridiculous amounts of duct tape over and around her horns, in an attempt to pad them. Had to re-apply ever so often, and finally got rid of her. Will NOT own another horned dairy goat. There. Just my opinion, gained from experience.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

I would never perform the inhumane act. Period.

Now, you must determine what is inhumane. If you keep a herd of nannies and kids. Dehorning is the best. Does fight endlessly when left to their own devices. No doe can establish true dominance. They get big near giving birth, they have to run after their babies, etc. Kids and the small will be caught in the crossfire.

If you keep your goats in a "natural" herd. With various ages of does, bucks and kids. The Herd buck, The big guy. will always want a good battle. He will run into and smash the overly boisterous apart. He will save a tiny buck or doe with vigor. He kinda makes everyone play easy... They don't want to attract his attention. 


So in the end as with most of the controversies it comes down to management style that is the true key to success.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

VegRN said:


> Wow, did not mean to start a controversy. In my case disbudding is a necessary evil because I really would like to market to 4-H programs. I was really only lamenting how common scurs seem to be, at least in my area.


Don't feel bad about the controversy  This controversy needs to come up once in a while for us all to learn about each other and goat keeping. It's funny when you ask what you think is a simple question and you come back and see that the thread is 3 pages long!


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> Those are adorable Thai




Those are adorable little goats! I'm so glad there aren't any of those around here!


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

VegRN said:


> Wow, did not mean to start a controversy.


If you stick around long enough, you'll find that whenever this topic is discussed, it turns into a bit of a shooting match. I try to not get involved, all people have to do is go to my website to see what I do. I posted on this topic this time.....as usual, I'm sorry I did. <Sit on your hands, sit on your hands.....:kung:>


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## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

But, you know, it's being discussed politely. No one is calling names or making accusations. I can stand a good discussion like this any day of the week.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

LOL, Nehi, you should see the food debates in the HQ area!:lookout:


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Isn't it good to have discussions like this sometimes, especially for new goat owners here. Everyone learns this way & can see all different points of veiw & perspectives! I agree with Nehi, it's all been politely discussed & we all have our opinions.

It's just a difference in goat management for each person & what works best for that person I guess. I choose not to disbud my goats for my reasons as stated before but have some that are. I have no problems with the mixed horns & no horned goats.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

~laughs~ Anyone who has to resort to name calling and personal attacks, IMNSHO, has just LOST the argument. If they cannot come up with reasonable, logical premises for their opinions and must resort to stirring up emotions and debating character, then they have just *proven* that they have no facts to back up their claims.

This is, indeed, an emotional topic, and some people have very strong opinions about it. It's kind of funny, but the thread was dying down to a pleasant "Well, whatever works for you" until Bill stepped in to claim, rather vehemently, that those who did not disbud because they felt it was inhumane were full of B.S., and then went on to infer that it was inhumane NOT to disbud.

:shrug:

Now, to Bill: I think I stated very clearly that I could NOT find studies that dealt specifically with Dairy Goats and horn, because no studies of that nature had been done in the last 25 years that i could find. I even checked sites that charged you to read studies.

Now, if you wish to explain to me how the herd psychology and physiology of meat goats is so VASTLY different from dairy goats that there is no possible way that a feasibility study for one could POSSIBLY apply to the other, go ahead. I'll laugh, but you can do so anyway.

A feasibility study, or, indeed, ANY study of that nature, dealing with horned goats, or dishorned goats, etc., etc., does NOT need to go through an ethics committee. ~rolls her eyes~ The only way that such a study would need to go through an ethics committee is if the University ITSELF had to acquire all new materials, animals, facilities, etc., and the work was done INDIVIDUALLY, and not in concert with other studies.

You really don't know how such things work, do you?

At any rate, the University, Research Center, etc., does NOT need to acquire animals. It just needs to acquire RECORDS and compare them.

Yeah, records, from commercial farms with goats. Farms generally keep records of deaths, injuries, illnesses, etc., and the cause for them.

I included the article on cattle because it discusses the different EU reactions to EU Regulation 1804/1999, which, if you didn't know, applies to _goats_ as well as cattle. Perhaps you were unaware that the same laws in the EU that effected the disbudding and dehorning of cattle were applicable to ALL horned farm animals, including goats, and that is why you were perplexed about me including them?

No, wait, you clearly stated that you do not care what goes on in other countries. My apologies.

The burden of proof, Bill, is asymetrical, but most of it is on you, because YOU are the one proposing change from the natural order. This is called "Economics of Epistemology", and the way it works is this:

1. The natural form of most goats, barring deformations or naturally polled breeds, is to have horns. This is the neutral position, or "starting position".

2. You propose that changing the goats natural form is better for them. Since you are proposing an ontological positive, or in other words, you are holding the position that change is better than what IS, the majority of the burden of proof is upon you.

This has been the acceptable form of debating change in Philosophy, Science and even Theology for hundreds of years...it is nothing new and the rules of such debate are neither onerous nor complicated.

This would be the same for any natural, observable thing.

1. Trees grow towards sunlight. This is their natural state.

2. Trees should not grow towards sunlight; trees should grow towards water.

The burden of proof lies upon whomever stated #2, because that is the change from the natural order.

Therefore, if you wish to debate this from anything other than a purely emotional aspect; if you wish to deal with facts, hypotheses, experiments, etc., then do so. I am willing and waiting to be convinced, as I have previously stated. I am neither inflexible, nor even all that stubborn. 

~smiles~ However, I am strong enough that when people make assertions and propose those assertions vehemently that I don't allow them, with all of their emotional grandstanding, to get out of the WORK and RESEARCH it takes to back up the assertions. In other words, I don't allow lazy folks to get away with what is little better than internet posturing.

YOU made the assertion that changing the natural form of a goat is better for them. YOU do the work to either back up or prove your assertion, as YOU have proposed that change is better; not I. If you do not wish to do the work and research to convince others that such a change IS better, then put that on YOUR lack of time or inclination, and don't try to pass it off as someone else's responsibility.

Okay, off my soapbox.  Hope everyone has a GREAT day!


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

As I have said before, I have seen first-hand the damage that horned dairy goats can do to each other.

I see no need for studies. You are the one that has insisted on studies.

BTW, can you provide us with a lst of universities that have herds of horned dairy goats??

IMO, I have a responsibility to my animals to provide an envornment that is as helthy and as safe as possible. For me, that includes dsbudding.

IMO, when man started dometicating animals, man changed their environment, and some things that may have worked to the animal's benefit in the wild may no longer be benficial for them.

You mentined comercial herds of dairy goats.....I do not know of any commercial herds that hae horne animals. Do you know of any?

Probably 2 of the biggest and best known are:
Redwood Hills
http://www.redwoodhill.com/
(Gee, I don't see any horns on their goats..... but it says they are "Humane Certified.")

Coach Farm
http://www.coachfarm.com/

Please share with us some large commercial dairy goat farms that do not disbud.

I am still waiting for a specific study on Dairy Goats.......I don't need to see studes when I have seen the injured goats with my own eyes.....:shrug:

Who is debating??......I am simply speaking from what I have witnessed. :shrug:

A few weeks ago a truck had an accident about 200 yards from my house. It overturned. I feel like you would not believe that a truck overturned without seeing a "study" done on that accident. 

I have seen the damage that horned dairy goats can do. That was enough for me. I believe that the humane thing for me to do is disbud my goats.

I do what I feel is best for my animals.


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

billooo2 said:


> Please share with us some large commercial dairy goat farms that do not disbud.


I am guessing this is futile, as you stated you do not care about other countries. But Langedrag farm, that have a large dairy operation and sell cheese, are dedicated to the preservation of the Norwegian Dairy Goat AND their horns. They specificially avoid the population of polled saanen-mixes that we have.
They are open to the public, and kids are allowed to interact with the goats and milk them.



































They also have yak, highland cattle and Telemark cattle - all horned.

www.ekeby.no have over 200 horned boers for meat production.

Ekeberg farm have horned dairy goats.

















The UNIVERSITY of environment- and biosciences have three herds of dairy goats.










I'm tired of looking now.. :soap:


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

My doeling just got herself stuck in the fence and when I walked over to help her she freaked out and pulled her horn right off!!! I wish I had her disbudded.

My buckling is using his horns to play with my wether (disbudded) and I am worried he will hurt him. I wish I had him disbudded, too.

I agree with the poster who said have the whole herd with horns if you choose not to disbud. I may have to put them in another pen if they continue to use horns on the disbudded goats.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Any thoughts/experience with regard to having a horse in the pasture with goats with horns????


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

shanzone2001 said:


> Any thoughts/experience with regard to having a horse in the pasture with goats with horns????


Many people around here have goats as companions for horses, and the goats usually have horns. Never heard of any problem with this. Of course it is wise to use a goat that is *smart* and does not think it needs to take on a horse - the goat would probably lose...
But that's the same with anything. Obnoxious goats aren't nice.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Geiss said:


> Many people around here have goats as companions for horses, and the goats usually have horns. Never heard of any problem with this. Of course it is wise to use a goat that is *smart* and does not think it needs to take on a horse - the goat would probably lose...
> But that's the same with anything. Obnoxious goats aren't nice.


He's a pretty sweet little buckling and doesn't try to take on the horse!!!


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

shanzone2001 said:


> He's a pretty sweet little buckling and doesn't try to take on the horse!!!


Then I'm sure it will be just fine!  If he's raised with it, it probably will be fine anyway!


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

Geiss,
Thak you for sharing the pics.......cold you tell me what country that is in???

I think of "large dairy" as 200-700 (or more goats). Those pics do not look like what i would consider a "large goat dairy."

What breeds of goats are those? Those horns look more like what we see on meat goats around here. Those horns are no where near the size that I would have on my Alpines if I were to let them grow. I have seen scurs on Alpine bucks that are MUCH bigger than those horns.

Thank you,
Bill


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

*Bill:
*
These are images of goats from Norwegian dairy farms that I found online. Not many have any interest in having homepages. No one picture includes the whole herd of course.

The goats are mostly Norwegian Dairy with some saanen here and there. And almost all of them are does.

I don't think the numbers game is really a valid argument, neither is the size of horns. These are working dairy herds of various size with horns. The only thing lacking in your original question (I suppose) is the country they reside in. As you must have understood by my previous postings, Norway has strict rules on animal welfare and would not allow practices that lead to regular maimings and death among animals.

Edited to add:
I'm sorry, but I have to ask. Are you unaware of the size difference in does and bucks' horns? If you look more closely you will see a couple of bucks (that are standing in with children, I might add) with horns I wouldn't exactly call tiny....


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

Geiss said:


> *Bill:
> *
> These are images of goats from Norwegian dairy farms that I found online. Not many have any interest in having homepages. No one picture includes the whole herd of course.
> 
> ...


I think that the "numbers" is a VERY VALID argument. There is a HUGE difference is managing 20-30 goats than there is in managing 300 goats!!!

Oh yes, I am very aware of the differences in the size of horns on does vs. bucks. 

I have had goats "off and on" for almost 30 years.

I had not noticed the buck until you mentioned it. His horns are larger, but, IMO, they do not compare with the horns that I had on a yearling Alpine buck who did not get disbudded......and I sent him to the auction.

As I said, the horns on those does look more like the horns we see on meat goats around here. They are nothing like the horns my Alpine does would have if I allowd them to grow,

It does not look like we are comparing "apples to apples."

Yes, I have seen Alpine does with a full set of horns ......and I have seen the "maiiming" that was inflicted on herd-mates.

When I read that people who say, "'X' has horns on their goats and they have never had a porblem...." It reminds me of the patients that I took care of in the hospital who had been 'gored' by bulls. They ALL had one thing in common in their stories....."We have been doing it this way for years, and never had a problem before....."

It also reminds me of an incident at the farm where I buy hay. It is a dairy farm where they milk 150-200 cows. They have a couple part-time empoyees. One of them is a "retired" dairy farmer. One of the bulls attacked him one day. The bull knocked him down, and continued to try to gore him. Fortunately, the bull did not have horns. No one else was present when the attack started. The gentleman rolled towards the fence ....as the bull continued to try to gore him. The gentleman survived the attack, but spent over a week in the hospital with several broken ribs, and other internal injuries. The gentleman and the owner of the farm both believed that if the bull had horns, the injuries would have been much more severe, and may have resulted in his death. 

Does ANYONE believe that the injuries would not have been more severe if the bull would have had horns?!?!

Would it have been "more humane" to that gentleman if the bull would have had horns?

I have seen the maiming fist-hand that horned dairy goats can inflict on each other. I believe it is more more humane for my animals to disbud, then to risk a maiming.

But I am not telling other people what they should do with their animals....if someone else wants to have horns on their animals, I could care less.

But I do not believe for one second that is is "more humane" to leave horns on a goat!!


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

I would like to understand the comparison that is being made between meat goat and dairy goat horns.

I can find plenty of site and pictures of meat goats (Boers/Fainters/Pygmies and such) and we had two pygmy bucks a few years ago with horns so I know what those look like. However, I have never had a dairy goat with horns and outside of a few pics in other countries of goats of unknown breeding (except for those that Geiss posted) I can find no pics of dairy goats with horns. 

Does any one have a pic of an Alpine doe with a full set of horns? Or LaMancha,Toggenburg,Saanen,ND?

I would just like to compare the differences for my own learning. Thanks in advance to any who have pics.


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

billooo2 said:


> I think that the "numbers" is a VERY VALID argument. There is a HUGE difference is managing 20-30 goats than there is in managing 300 goats!!!


I don't know the numbers for each of these farms, but I can assure you that we are not talking 20-30 goats. One of these I have been to myself (the first one) and their herd is pretty big (several hundred animals, yes - I didn't count them though). They spend most of the year in pasture old-style and are driven down to be milked each day by horses.



> I had not noticed the buck until you mentioned it. His horns are larger, but, IMO, they do not compare with the horns that I had on a yearling Alpine buck who did not get disbudded......and I sent him to the auction.


There are several bucks in those photos, and most of them are quite young, because bucks aren't kept around forever, they are switched out to keep inbreeding low.
Anyway, there's no point in arguing with you on this - but if it's the SIZE of the horns that is the issue, why on earth breed goats with monstrous horns? How come we in Europe have dairy goats with "small horns" (according to you)? And another question, how can you know so much about your goats horn sizes if you routinely disbud them?



> When I read that people who say, "'X' has horns on their goats and they have never had a porblem...." It reminds me of the patients that I took care of in the hospital who had been 'gored' by bulls. They ALL had one thing in common in their stories....."We have been doing it this way for years, and never had a problem before....."


Accidents happen. If you work with knives, at some point you'll cut yourself. I think it's just not enough justification to remove an animals body parts because a person could get hurt in the course of the years. I guess we'd start removing hooves too, if we could - to avoid stomping?



> It also reminds me of an incident at the farm where I buy hay. It is a dairy farm where they milk 150-200 cows. They have a couple part-time empoyees. One of them is a "retired" dairy farmer. One of the bulls attacked him one day. The bull knocked him down, and continued to try to gore him. Fortunately, the bull did not have horns. No one else was present when the attack started. The gentleman rolled towards the fence ....as the bull continued to try to gore him. The gentleman survived the attack, but spent over a week in the hospital with several broken ribs, and other internal injuries. The gentleman and the owner of the farm both believed that if the bull had horns, the injuries would have been much more severe, and may have resulted in his death.


Every year, several people are killed by cattle in Norway (bear in mind the population is under five million, and the people in contact with cattle is minute). I've not heard any that were gored to death, they were all pinned and/or stomped. They are big, powerful animals with their own ideas, and dangerous to work with. Horns or not.



> Would it have been "more humane" to that gentleman if the bull would have had horns?


Since when did animal welfare have anything to do with people? :huh: We are talking about what is humane for the animals, not for us. We choose to keep these animals, they have no choice in the matter.



> I have seen the maiming fist-hand that horned dairy goats can inflict on each other. I believe it is more more humane for my animals to disbud, then to risk a maiming.


Then that is your belief and you are entitled to it.



> But I do not believe for one second that is is "more humane" to leave horns on a goat!!


That is entirely in the eyes of the beholder, and very much a matter of faith/belief. Until we can see some comparative study from all-horn and all-dehorned herds over the course of years, we can't really conclude definately either way.

But one thing is proved beyond a doubt, and that's the worst part of it all for me. Banding horns, banding testicles and disbudding IS painful, and can remain painful for quite some time after the procedure. 
WHY do so many keep on doing these things without proper pain management?!? I see people saying it breaks their hearts to do it, but I haven't seen anyone mention doing more to reduce pain than giving banamine before the procedure. Honestly, try taking some ibuprofen and then put the iron to your skin, see how much it helps.


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> Does any one have a pic of an Alpine doe with a full set of horns? Or LaMancha,Toggenburg,Saanen,ND?


Saanens are most often naturally polled (which is why they were incorporated to such a degree here in Norway). 

Alpine








Alpine
http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/1575_picture_156982.jpg
French Alpine
http://rlv.zcache.com/french_alpine_goat_postcard-p239593674723873565trdg_400.jpg
Slovenian Alpine
http://www.istrianet.org/istria/fauna/goats/images/goat-sloistria350.jpg

LaMancha








http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n269/jenlila1/goats/S6300313.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z130/JKLStone/IMG_0312.jpg

Toggenburg








http://www.infonet-biovision.org/res/res/files/2308.300x200.jpeg

Saanen








http://img.freebase.com/api/trans/image_thumb/m/02c3m_s?maxheight=510&mode=fit&maxwidth=510

ND








http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_BuO62hqVf...AACMU/NtxDYV3bWWM/s320/jewelry+rebel+2290.JPG[

Dutch Landrace


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

TAMU keeps several herds of goats, both meat and dairy. I remember one herd that had tinted windows in their sides...it was weird, but a surgery had been done on them and WINDOWS installed so their inner workings could be observed. The windows were tinted heavily so their innards wouldn't get sunburned.

I have no idea what the windows were made of, but the goats didn't seem unhappy or bothered by them. In fact, they pretty much ignored them.

LSU has herds of dairy and meat goats, as does CSU and U of C. Pretty much any University that also has a veterinary school has herds of goats. What's your point?

Here is a Nubian buck with horns:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Nubian_Goat_001.jpg 

Here is a Nubian doe with horns:

http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/logan/jerry.jpg

Here is a male, horned alpine (don't know if he is a buck or a wether):

http://www.morningstarranch.org/newgoat.jpg

Wow! Gotta admit those horns are impressive! Although any target would have to be several feet away for him to hit them with those corkscrew things!

Here is a Saanen doe with horns:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Saanenziege.jpg

A Toggenburg with a nice, healthy set of horns:

http://www.freewebs.com/wgstudanimals/lollee.jpg

And a Pygmy with a nice set of horns:

http://www.cumbrian-goat-experience.co.uk/newgoat/newgoatpics/Pygmy-Goat.gif

Alpines seem to be the "Longhorns" of the goat world, as NONE of the other breeds i have found, other than the wild Mountain Goat, have anywhere NEAR such an impressive set of head-wear.

I can most certainly see _Alpines_ with full horn sets being a problem in the dairy parlor, in the same way that I wouldn't put Longhorn Cattle in a dairy parlor either...the horns would stretch over two milking stanchions in each direction.

However, that is the EXCEPTION, not the rule. The Nubians, the Saanens, the Pygmies, the Toggenburgs, etc., whose images I sifted through didn't have any more impressive headwear than any of the Boers and Cashmeres I have seen.

Herd of Cashmere goats:

http://swisscashmere.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/cashmere_goats_in_upshi.JPG 

Impressively horned Cashmere buck:

http://www.greenfencefarm.com/images/timandfriends.jpg

Yeah, THAT boy would be a problem in the dairy parlor also.

Here is a herd of Boer does:

http://www.umassmeatgoat.com/imagesnontemplate/misc/doesrunning.jpg

Looks to me like their horns are about the same as a Nubian.

~shrugs~ I live in Texas, which is THE U.S. capital for Cashmere and meat goats, with the largest commercial herds of both. (Everything is bigger in Texas, right?)

However, Bill, you mentioned it being a numbers game and NUMBERS were important, right? It's the NUMBERS of goats and whether or not they have horns, right?

In all of the U.S. in 1996, 640 tons of goat cheese was produced. In France, a country not even as large as Texas, 35,000 tons of goat cheese was produced.... that is more in tonnage of JUST cheese than every licensed goat dairy in the U.S. handled in JUST MILK the same year.

Yeah, who has more goats?

According to the USDA NASS statistics of 2008, there are 310,000 commercial dairy goats in the ENTIRE United States.

Just one COUNTY (Fuping County, to be exact) in China outnumbers our entire nation in dairy goats.

China does not disbud.

Germany has more dairy goats than we do. Sweden has more dairy goats than we do. Every European nation, even though many of them are not even as large as, say, Kansas, has more dairy goats than we do.

THEY have the NUMBERS...and except for the U.K., they do not disbud as a practice.

So I guess it's a good thing. Yeah, we HABITUALLY torture our goats here by castrating and disbudding WITHOUT even using anesthesia, but at least we don't do that to the number of goats one might find in, say, Zimbabwe. 

Of course, in our arrogance, we OBVIOUSLY know what's better for our goats than those ignorant, third world, non-industrialized Swiss, right? Even though they have three times the dairy goats we do even though they are less than 1/60th the size? *rolls her eyes and snorts*

What I wanna know is:

What is an Alpine buck doing getting his horns caught in a stanchion anyway? Is someone milking him?


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

CaliannG said:


> Here is a herd of Boer does:
> 
> http://www.umassmeatgoat.com/imagesnontemplate/misc/doesrunning.jpg
> 
> Looks to me like their horns are about the same as a Nubian.


That there is a herd of nubian/boer mixs.... Boar horns are kinda wide and lay back directly next to their head. OR differently, they don't stick up, they stick back and to the sides.

They should look like this.











Link to image page.... www.abfboergoats.com


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Oh my!Yes that Alpine buck does have horns that would be a bit difficult to manage. Based on the dehorning/disbudding practices in other countries its obviously not impossible to manage, but I can see it would be very difficult. Although I have to admit that there is no way that particular buck could get his head through the squares in a cattle panel to get stuck,lol.

The others all have horns that don't seem to differ much. In fact the cashemre horns look more difficult to manage than the dairy horns with the exception of the Alpine.

How interesting. I had no idea that Alpine horns could grow to such magnificent lengths.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

I think some of the Middle Eastern countries breed FOR such impressive horns. I also came across a couple of pictures of other breeds with some impressive horns.

Here is a Jamnapari goat:

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/3751663/2/istockphoto_3751663_feral_goat.jpg

I don't think he is getting stuck in a fence any day soon either.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Here is my Pygmy Gretta...She came with horns. I wanted one without horns but her personality outweighed the horn issue. Now she is a guard goat.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

LOL, Minelson, that is too funny :hysterical:


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

A little thread drift....
Geiss:
Is it my imagination??? The goats in your pictures seem to be quite a bit smaller than the Alpnes here in the US.

This is one of my does that I purchased recently. They weighed her before I picked her up and she weighed 195#. I have taken her to a couple shows and several other does in her class were larger than her, so she is not unusually large.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Minelson said:


> Here is my Pygmy Gretta...She came with horns. I wanted one without horns but her personality outweighed the horn issue. Now she is a guard goat.


That goat seriously looks ticked off, however, she honestly looks too lethargic to attack anything except more food.:rotfl:


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

Geiss said:


> I don't know the numbers for each of these farms, but I can assure you that we are not talking 20-30 goats. One of these I have been to myself (the first one) and their herd is pretty big (several hundred animals, yes - I didn't count them though). They spend most of the year in pasture old-style and are driven down to be milked each day by horses.
> 
> I can't speak for all goat dairies, but cow dairies tell me that when they get up to several hundred cows, pasture based dairying is not feasible.
> 
> ...


Have you ever witnessed an effective disbudding of a week-old baby goat??


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

CaliannG said:


> TAMU keeps several herds of goats, both meat and dairy. I remember one herd that had tinted windows in their sides...it was weird, but a surgery had been done on them and WINDOWS installed so their inner workings could be observed. The windows were tinted heavily so their innards wouldn't get sunburned.
> 
> I have no idea what the windows were made of, but the goats didn't seem unhappy or bothered by them. In fact, they pretty much ignored them.
> 
> LSU has herds of dairy and meat goats, as does CSU and U of C. Pretty much any University that also has a veterinary school has herds of goats. What's your point?


Do any of those universities have horns on their dairy goats??? 

Re: numbers.........I apologize if I did not make myself clear. I was referring to the size of a herd, not the total number of goats in a country.

I forgot......I spent my career in the medical field.....and any study of any kind needed a review by an ethics committee. I believe that began about 20 years ago. If there are other "standards" for other institutions, then thank you for providing that information. 

As I have said...I think several times..... have seen first-hand the maiming that can occur in a herd of Alpines that have their horns. For me, that is suffering by an animal that could have been prevented.
If you would rather have that animal suffer like that, then we simply have different values. :shrug:

Aren't you getting dizzy with all the "eye-rolling?"

Bill........getting concerned for CaliannG........and wondering why people use the term "humane" to create conditions that can result in more pain for the animals? I have seen those results......if someone has not, then I have no control over that,....:shrug:


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

Heritagefarm said:


> That goat seriously looks ticked off, however, she honestly looks too lethargic to attack anything except more food.:rotfl:


Oh yeah?? Ask the guy with the shredded neck tie how lethargic she is! :hysterical:


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Geiss said:


> But one thing is proved beyond a doubt, and that's the worst part of it all for me. Banding horns, banding testicles and disbudding IS painful, and can remain painful for quite some time after the procedure.
> WHY do so many keep on doing these things without proper pain management?!? I see people saying it breaks their hearts to do it, but I haven't seen anyone mention doing more to reduce pain than giving banamine before the procedure. Honestly, try taking some ibuprofen and then put the iron to your skin, see how much it helps.


Animals don't feel pain the same way humans do. Within 3 minutes of having that hot iron on their heads for 40-60 seconds, they're walking/running and drinking milk like nothing happened. No 'head-rolling', twitching, eye-rolling, or droopiness (although they are rather subdued). Compare that to burning a hole on a 3-year-old human's head for 40-60 seconds. The 3-yr-old would probably die.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

Now holding a 1000Â° iron on a kids head for ANY longer than it needs to get the job done is out and out torture. 40-60 seconds??  Are you serious?? The very longest I go is 7 seconds. And my vet warned me not to go over 5 seconds.
I also have to ask, how do you know they don't feel pain the same way? Their nervous systems are no different than ours, we're all mammals you know.



Heritagefarm said:


> Animals don't feel pain the same way humans do. Within 3 minutes of having that hot iron on their heads for 40-60 seconds, they're walking/running and drinking milk like nothing happened. No 'head-rolling', twitching, eye-rolling, or droopiness (although they are rather subdued). Compare that to burning a hole on a 3-year-old human's head for 40-60 seconds. The 3-yr-old would probably die.


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

KimM said:


> Now holding a 1000Â° iron on a kids head for ANY longer than it needs to get the job done is out and out torture. 40-60 seconds??  Are you serious?? The very longest I go is 7 seconds. And my vet warned me not to go over 5 seconds.
> I also have to ask, how do you know they don't feel pain the same way? Their nervous systems are no different than ours, we're all mammals you know.


I usually count when I do it......and about 7 seconds is my maximum time. 
Sometimes I need to "touch up' a spot or 2. 

Within a few seconds they are bouncing aound as if nothing ever happened.

I have no explanation for it, but if I were to burn my arm like that....it would be a totally different story.

When I worked at the hospital, neurosurgeons told me that either all of the human skull, or parts of the skull have no nerve endings. I don't know if that is true of goats or not.


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

KimM said:


> Now holding a 1000Â° iron on a kids head for ANY longer than it needs to get the job done is out and out torture. 40-60 seconds??  Are you serious?? The very longest I go is 7 seconds. And my vet warned me not to go over 5 seconds.
> I also have to ask, how do you know they don't feel pain the same way? Their nervous systems are no different than ours, we're all mammals you know.


I usually count when I do it......and about 7 seconds is my maximum time. 
Sometimes I need to "touch up' a spot or 2. 

Within a few seconds they are bouncing aound as if nothing ever happened.

I have no explanation for it, but if I were to burn my arm like that....it would be a totally different story.

When I worked in the medical field, neurosurgeons told me that either all of the human skull, or parts of the skull have no nerve endings.....and thus the the "bone" of the skull has no pain sensation. I don't know if that is true of goats or not.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

I guess it can be likened to spaying and neutering. Even with anesthesia, spaying and neutering is painful. In dogs, heats and such can be mananged and some people never have any trouble. But then there are those who despite their best efforts still end up with a surprise litter or had to watch a dog die of testicular or mammary gland cancer or watched a female die of pyometra. In fact, baby goats act far,far better in the minutes after disbudding than a dog does when it wakes up after spaying. Yet everyone will agree its is better for the dog to be spayed rather than left intact. 

Everyone does things differently and sees things differently, from neighbors down the street to neighbors across the world. One isn't nessecarily better than another in this case I don't think. Each owner has to decide what is best for them,their family and their goats.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

sorry,double post


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Heritagefarm said:


> That goat seriously looks ticked off, however, she honestly looks too lethargic to attack anything except more food.:rotfl:


oh boy...I won't tell her you said that. Must be the camera angle..this is not a lethargic goat. She is quite active and she fears NOTHING.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I'm glad my doe has her horns. If a predator ever got in her pen, she'd at least have a fighting chance. 

The cows and dog back down to her. (She likes to lord it over them.) She knows better than to use those horns on me, so we get along fine.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

willow_girl said:


> I'm glad my doe has her horns. If a predator ever got in her pen, she'd at least have a fighting chance.
> 
> The cows and dog back down to her. (She likes to lord it over them.) She knows better than to use those horns on me, so we get along fine.


We all know that horns make no difference for defence.... 


Yet, folks take them off for safety. :hrm:


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

stanb999 said:


> We all know that horns make no difference for defence....
> 
> 
> Yet, folks take them off for safety. :hrm:


Absolutey, I do not expect my goats to have to protect themselves from predators!!!

And I have seen the mutilatoin that those horns can inflict on other goats.

IMO, I have a responsiblity to provide the safest environment possible for my animals.

Bill.......attends seminars, including dealing with coyotes, and has never lost a goat to coyotes.......in spite of a coyote population in this area........is more concerned about stray dogs.......and has neighbors who have said that they will shoot any stray dog that they see on my property!!!.....if I don't shoot them first!!!


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

KimM said:


> Now holding a 1000Â° iron on a kids head for ANY longer than it needs to get the job done is out and out torture. 40-60 seconds??  Are you serious?? The very longest I go is 7 seconds. And my vet warned me not to go over 5 seconds.
> *I also have to ask, how do you know they don't feel pain the same way?* Their nervous systems are no different than ours, we're all mammals you know.


7 seconds? Maybe it was actually 10 seconds... And 60 seconds was an extreme. But we had one Saanen kid we'd gotten from someone. She'd had someone hold the goat while she burned it's head. I don't know what happened, but the scurs were growing all over the place and it took 80 seconds or more to burn that darn thing back right.

Also, to answer the bolded area, I don't, but the fact that they act fine afterward speaks for itself... As opposed to burning a human. I freak out if I touch the skillet for .5 seconds; I can't imagine leaving it for longer!:shocked:


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

I'm sure it probably seemed like a lot longer that it was. The first time I witnessed a disbudding, it seemed like the guy would never take the iron off. I didn't know if I was going to pass out or puke. It was a botched job to boot so I was determined to learn to do it right and as efficient as possible the FIRST time. So in comes that "experience" thing and it greatly benefits all involved - especially the goats.
I think the pain perception thing is because for one, as Bill explained, the lack of abundant nerves in the cranium. And two, they don't express some pain the same way we do. (why I always give Banamine beforehand) I know when I've banged my head on something and cut it, it really hurt but didn't hurt for very long at all unless I touched it. Plus people have LOTS of nerves in their soft tissues, especially hands and fingers. Maybe we could invite some of those people that brand theirselves into the discussion. :teehee: Or not....




Heritagefarm said:


> 7 seconds? Maybe it was actually 10 seconds... And 60 seconds was an extreme. But we had one Saanen kid we'd gotten from someone. She'd had someone hold the goat while she burned it's head. I don't know what happened, but the scurs were growing all over the place and it took 80 seconds or more to burn that darn thing back right.
> 
> Also, to answer the bolded area, I don't, but the fact that they act fine afterward speaks for itself... As opposed to burning a human. I freak out if I touch the skillet for .5 seconds; I can't imagine leaving it for longer!:shocked:


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

billooo2 said:


> A little thread drift....
> Geiss:
> Is it my imagination??? The goats in your pictures seem to be quite a bit smaller than the Alpnes here in the US.


I haven't taken their weights, so I can't answer that. All I can say is they're bred for maximum milk production.



billooo2 said:


> Have you ever witnessed an effective disbudding of a week-old baby goat??


I've seen plenty videos of correct and no-so-correct disbudding, yes. 



billooo2 said:


> I forgot......I spent my career in the medical field.....and any study of any kind needed a review by an ethics committee. I believe that began about 20 years ago. If there are other "standards" for other institutions, then thank you for providing that information.


We're talking data collection here. There would be no ethics issue.



> As I have said...I think several times..... have seen first-hand the maiming that can occur in a herd of Alpines that have their horns. For me, that is suffering by an animal that could have been prevented.
> If you would rather have that animal suffer like that, then we simply have different values. :shrug:


I'm starting to wonder if Alpines are unusually aggressive?



Heritagefarm said:


> Animals don't feel pain the same way humans do. Within 3 minutes of having that hot iron on their heads for 40-60 seconds, they're walking/running and drinking milk like nothing happened. No 'head-rolling', twitching, eye-rolling, or droopiness (although they are rather subdued). Compare that to burning a hole on a 3-year-old human's head for 40-60 seconds. The 3-yr-old would probably die.


THAT is a myth long since debunked! They feel pain exactly the way we do. How much of it, however, can be difficult to know. Goats are prey animals, prey animals usually have less behavioural displays of pain than humans - but the stress and pain of the animal can still be observed in their heart rate, blood pressure and cortisol levels.



Oat Bucket Farm said:


> I guess it can be likened to spaying and neutering. Even with anesthesia, spaying and neutering is painful. In dogs, heats and such can be mananged and some people never have any trouble. But then there are those who despite their best efforts still end up with a surprise litter or had to watch a dog die of testicular or mammary gland cancer or watched a female die of pyometra. In fact, baby goats act far,far better in the minutes after disbudding than a dog does when it wakes up after spaying. Yet everyone will agree its is better for the dog to be spayed rather than left intact.


Actually, not everyone will agree on that either. Norway has a great number of intact animals and not a single stray (we do get runaways of course). It is considered by many an unnecessary procedure due to laziness on the owners part.

I do understand the regular neutering in the US because you have such vast issues with too many animals - and I also support neutering of cats, even here (that is somewhat of an issue). I've neutered all my cats, but none of my dogs, because I can control where the dogs go (fence) - I don't want to keep my cats indoors, that would be cruel.

I digress.. When we neuter, we use anaesthesia, and around here they are given pain killers and inflammation reducers for up to a week afterwards, to minimize their pain and discomfort. Like I said, goats are prey animals and will act accordingly (when you can tell a goat is sick, it's REALLY sick!), they too deserve the best pain management we can give them when we choose to bring them into this life and perform painful procedures on them. I can not for the life of me understand why anyone would think they deserve less.
I, for one, would rather make sure I do what I can rather than assume they're fine with it. Wouldn't you want the same courtesy?


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

KimM said:


> Maybe we could invite some of those people that brand theirselves into the discussion. :teehee: Or not....


Enter me.. :hysterical:
I have a branding in my neck that took about an hour to do. Yes, it hurt like all get-out, and then it hurt some more. Any other questions?


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

Really? _On purpose??_ :shocked: PICS! PICS!



Geiss said:


> Enter me.. :hysterical:
> I have a branding in my neck that took about an hour to do. Yes, it hurt like all get-out, and then it hurt some more. Any other questions?


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

KimM said:


> Really? _On purpose??_ :shocked: PICS! PICS!


Okelydokely (even if it's very OT)... This was years ago, I've stopped self-mutilating now. :bash:

As you can see, the skin is seriously angry at the abuse...


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

owie owie owie OWIE!!!!!


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

Geiss said:


> We're talking data collection here. There would be no ethics issue.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm starting to wonder if Alpines are unusually aggressive?


Geiss, first of all I would like to thank you for having this discussion without resorting to mud slinging......and acting like you are superior to everone who may not share your point of view.:goodjob:

re: data collection and not an ethics issue. IMO, if an animal is in an environment where it is being injured, then, IMO, it is an ethics issue. And then one needs to set a criteria for how much will be allowed.....seriousness of injury, number of occurrences, etc.

re: Alpines and aggressiveness. Some people think that they are. Other people have said that other breeds are more aggressive. I think that there is more variation within a breed than between breeds.

Agressiveness is somethng that I cull for. There will always be some head butting to establish the pecking order within the herd. But I had a couple that seemed to develop the habit of just going around and beating on the other goats. I sent those to the auction pretty quickly.

I asked about size because it is hard to tell just from pictures.....The Norwegian dairy goats in the pictures that you posted seem to be somewhere in-between our "standard-sized" dairy goats and the mini's. As I said I cannot really tell from the pictures. I would guess their weights to be around 75-85 #. I could be way off on my "guesses."

If my guess is in the ballpark........then an Alpine, combined with the larger size of horn.....and wieghing 150-200 # would have quite a bit more potential to do some damage iwth their horns....?????

Geiss, thanks for sharing on this forum.....I find it interesting to learn things from other countries......even if I don't necessarily adopt their practices.


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

billooo2 said:


> Geiss, first of all I would like to thank you for having this discussion without resorting to mud slinging......and acting like you are superior to everone who may not share your point of view.:goodjob:


I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic? I don't think I'm superior.



> re: data collection and not an ethics issue. IMO, if an animal is in an environment where it is being injured, then, IMO, it is an ethics issue. And then one needs to set a criteria for how much will be allowed.....seriousness of injury, number of occurrences, etc.


I think you misunderstand. What we're talking about is collecting data from herds that already exist per the owners wishes. Collecting their records of injuries and occurrences. That would mean no invasion on the collectors' part and hence an ethics committee wouldn't have any issues with it. 
I'm quite sure they wouldn't have an issue if someone were to get their own herds and test either, after all, keeping animals horned is perfectly legal (and therefore not deemed unethical). If the injuries were so severe and/or high in numbers that the researchers decide to call it quits, that says something too (it would be proof, wouldn't it?).



> re: Alpines and aggressiveness. Some people think that they are. Other people have said that other breeds are more aggressive. I think that there is more variation within a breed than between breeds.


The reason I ask is that maybe the Alpine isn't the way to go, if they have bigger/more troublesome horns and are more prone to beating each other up. After all, in your arguments the difference between Alpines and everything else seems to be the point.



> I asked about size because it is hard to tell just from pictures.....The Norwegian dairy goats in the pictures that you posted seem to be somewhere in-between our "standard-sized" dairy goats and the mini's. As I said I cannot really tell from the pictures. I would guess their weights to be around 75-85 #. I could be way off on my "guesses."


I did some searching and found that a Norwegian Dairy goat weighs between 45(100 pounds) and 75kg (165 pounds), average doe weight being 50kg (110 pounds). The average doe produces 560 litres (148 gallons) of milk per year.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Um...ooooowwwwwww! (on the branding)

This is probably :bdh: by now but,

As far as goats feeling disbudding pain, I am not sure they feel pain on their heads the way we do. I know if I bashed heads with someone the way my goats bash heads in play I would probably be unconcious or at the very least have a serious headache and massive bruises. But then I don't think scrubbing my head on a tree would feel very good either but my goats seem to enjoy it.


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

Geiss said:


> I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic? I don't think I'm superior.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was not being sarcastic at all. It was a sincere expression.

The "ethics" part would be if the person became aware of the incidnce of injury, then, IMO, they would have a responsibility to address the issue.

I only speak to Alpines because that is the only breed that I have. Years ago I did have a grade Toggenberg, along with the Alpines. She was the most aggressive goat I have ever had......and I did not keep her very long.

Thank you for doing the research on the size of the breeds. My "guesses" were not very accurate.

The milk production is interesting.......according to ADGA, the average Alpine (the ones on "test") produced 2278# of milk. Assuming 8#/gallon......that would be about 284 gallons/year

http://adga.org/DHIR/09breed_lactation_averages.htm

Then there are the "Superstars".....the top ten producers....some of which milked over 4000#/year......over 500 gallons/years. (Truly the exceptional animals.)

http://adga.org/DHIR/ABLv.55.htm


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

That's an pretty good point although goats' skulls are much thicker than ours and that's why they don't knock themselves out. But you'd think they'd be really bruised.
And now I also have a very funny image of you scrubbing your head on a tree!



Oat Bucket Farm said:


> Um...ooooowwwwwww! (on the branding)
> 
> This is probably :bdh: by now but,
> 
> As far as goats feeling disbudding pain, I am not sure they feel pain on their heads the way we do. *I know if I bashed heads with someone the way my goats bash heads in play I would probably be unconcious or at the very least have a serious headache and massive bruises.* But then I don't think *scrubbing my head on a tree* would feel very good either but my goats seem to enjoy it.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

Geiss said:


> Okelydokely (even if it's very OT)... This was years ago, I've stopped self-mutilating now. :bash:
> 
> As you can see, the skin is seriously angry at the abuse...


:grit: Yep, what Minelson said. 



Minelson said:


> owie owie owie OWIE!!!!!


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

billooo2 said:


> I was not being sarcastic at all. It was a sincere expression.


Then thank you. 



> The "ethics" part would be if the person became aware of the incidnce of injury, then, IMO, they would have a responsibility to address the issue.


Of course - like I said, if such an incidence of injury occurred that they felt it needed to be aborted, that would itself be worth something. It would show that it is in no way the right way to do things. I just don't think that would be the outcome at all.



> The milk production is interesting.......according to ADGA, the average Alpine (the ones on "test") produced 2278# of milk. Assuming 8#/gallon......that would be about 284 gallons/year


That is interesting. I wonder how they compare if we totaled in feed consumption and number of goats. I don't know how much forage time US dairy goats have either, ours ususally pasture when there isn't snow.
It wouldn't surprise me if US goats have a higher yield due to different management practices.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Geiss said:


> I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic? I don't think I'm superior.
> 
> 
> It sounded like a nice compliment to me  :clap:


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

KimM said:


> That's an pretty good point although goats' skulls are much thicker than ours and that's why they don't knock themselves out. But you'd think they'd be really bruised.
> And now I also have a very funny image of you scrubbing your head on a tree!


Hm, that sounds real comfy. I might try that myself. Maybe I'll get a concussion doing that?:baby04:


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

Heritagefarm said:


> Hm, that sounds real comfy. I might try that myself. Maybe I'll get a concussion doing that?:baby04:


Scrubbing your head on a tree? Sounds like a YouTube moment.


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

Geiss said:


> That is interesting. I wonder how they compare if we totaled in feed consumption and number of goats. I don't know how much forage time US dairy goats have either, ours ususally pasture when there isn't snow.
> It wouldn't surprise me if US goats have a higher yield due to different management practices.


I will start another thread on this....


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

MOST animals don't express pain the way we do....and again, that is due to the necessity of seeming healthy in the wild.

Think of it this way: If we were to have a bad case of an upset tummy, we might spend 5 minutes at worship in front of the Porcelain God, then another 15 minutes sitting on the edge of the bathtub, panting and moaning.

A dog or a cat will simply yak, then walk off as if it is no big deal.

Same with other aspects. We are not the only mammals that experience orgasm. However, we are the only ones that will lay about, sweating, panting and discussing the need for a cigarette after one. The rest of the mammals that experience such climax wander off afterward as if it were nothing.

Scientific studies have shown that animals feel pain just as much as we do. However, their EXPRESSION of pain or discomfort is a lot less than our. This makes perfect sense; the goat or sheep that is moaning, limping heavily, or otherwise acting in distress is the one that is going to attract the attention of a predator as a perfect target for lunch.

That is a HUGE problem for people that keep birds, especially the more expensive parrots. By the time a parrot shows *symptoms* of a problem, you might have an hour, maybe two, before the bird dies from whatever problem it has. They will act nearly completely normal until they are about to keel over. This has become a part of them because a bird in the wild that shows symptoms of illness or injury is a bird that has a huge, red target on it, and it will sometimes be torn to bits by its own flock.

Let's engage in some anthropomorphizing, though. Let's put this in human terms.

The soldier who has been shot and has to get some stitching up. He is sitting there while someone digs out a bullet, cleans out his wound, puts stinging antiseptic on it, and stitches him up. He doesn't even budge the entire time or show anything. Are we to assume that because he isn't showing any outward sign that it doesn't HURT like the dickens?

The woman who has the flu, but still is up cleaning her house, fixing dinner for her husband and children, canning the last of the tomatoes, and feeding the chickens. Are we to assume that because she is up doing all of these things for her family, instead of laying in bed and moaning, that she still doesn't feel like heck?

The farmer who has an accident, walks back to his house and has his wife take him to the hospital due to a broken arm. The bone is poking through the skin. When he gets there, he conversationally tells the doctor, "Yep, doc, I seem to have a bit of a problem. Mind fixin' it up for me? If yer busy, I can stop by later." Maybe he just doesn't feel pain like the rest of us do?

Just because a person or creature does not EXPRESS pain does not mean they do not FEEL pain. When I smile and speak sweetly to the nice lady who is asking me if I want to participate in the church yard sale this year, it does NOT mean that, internally, I an not fervently praying that a lightening bolt will come out of the sky RIGHT THEN and strike me dead so I don't have to suffer from the *screaming* headache I have managed to acquire.

Studies have shown that animals feel pain _just like we do_, even if they are stoic about it. So yes, what we do to them hurts....and it would be nice if we applied anesthesia _just like we do for dogs and cats._

When we spay and neuter dogs and cats, we use anesthesia and pain medication (as well as E-collars). When dogs get their tails docked or their ears cut, the vet uses anesthesia. Then the vet prescribes pain pills for a while, as well as topical, painkilling salves and creams. No one argues that such major and minor surgeries are painful for dogs and cats, _so why do so many refuse to admit that such things hurt goats, sheep, horses, and cows as well?_ 

Color me confused. Humans and their idiosyncrasies baffle me.

~smiles~ However, I have a simple answer for the rubbing of heads against a nice, rough branch.....

Yep, rubbing my forehead against a rough tree trunk would NOT feel good. But there have been any number of times when i have been outside, sweating, with said sweat running RIGHT down the middle of my back, dirty, with grass and straw everywhere and filthy hands, where I I rubbed my BACK against a tree trunk, getting that ONE spot between the shoulder blades that I couldn't reach, and nearly died of a mixture of ecstasy and relief. Oh, is there ANY better feeling that one can have with one's clothes on than an itch being scratched?

A couple of times, when it was a BAD itch, I was even pretty rough on that tree.

Now, I can reach my forehead if it itches, and do so pretty easily. However, the top of the forehead for goats is about like between the shoulder blades for me. If you twist a bit, and contort a little, you CAN reach it, but not with a whole lot of force. Therefore, i can well imagine if they got an itch there, how they might be just as rough on a branch with their forehead as I am on the tree trunk with my back in some instances.

I can GUARANTEE that I would be a LOT rougher on that tree trunk when I had a bad itch if I was wearing a coat on my back like the goats are on their heads. 

I don't think that how a goat treats an itch can be a good measure of how much a goat feels pain. I have had bug bites or rashes where, although I exerted extreme self control and DID NOT scratch them... as soon as I fell asleep and did not have that conscious self control in action, they got scratched. A couple of times, I have woken up with a completely raw spot where an ant bite had been the previous day.

Does the fact that I have scratched a bug bite raw, and still stayed asleep, mean that I don't feel pain?

Just a bit more for folks to think about.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Actually yes, they very well may feel pain differently. My husband has an extemely hugh tolerance for pain. If you pinch very hard, it won't bother him. Do it to me and I will holler about it. He isn't ticklish either. He does feel pain, just not as easily as I do. 

I'm not saying that goats don't feel pain, I'm just saying they may not feel as much on their heads as we do. I have seen baby goats playing head butting games within a week of disbudding. Just like they feel cold but don't mind laying on the snow (something we would get chilled doing even in winter clothes)in the sunshine while they chew their cud and don't need shoes on their feet to them from getting cold.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> Actually yes, they very well may feel pain differently. My husband has an extemely hugh tolerance for pain. If you pinch very hard, it won't bother him. Do it to me and I will holler about it. He isn't ticklish either. He does feel pain, just not as easily as I do.
> 
> I'm not saying that goats don't feel pain, I'm just saying they may not feel as much on their heads as we do. I have seen baby goats playing head butting games within a week of disbudding. Just like they feel cold but don't mind laying on the snow (something we would get chilled doing even in winter clothes)in the sunshine while they chew their cud and don't need shoes on their feet to them from getting cold.



Never had a goats feet freeze... did you? They feel cold just like you and me. They get used to it. Just like you would if you lived in a cold climate.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

Let's all agree to each his own. You do what you are comfortable with and what your market bears and the rest of us will do what we are comfortable with and what our markets bear. 
It is a :bdh: but it has been civil unlike times past  

I would like to try scratching my head on a tree, lol but I have none  the goats ate them all


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

They don't get used to it. they have a more specialized circulartory sytem in their extremities than humans do. Humans would never get used to going barefoot in the snow. Well, maybe over a few thousand years and the loss of a whole lot of feet.



stanb999 said:


> Never had a goats feet freeze... did you? They feel cold just like you and me. They get used to it. Just like you would if you lived in a cold climate.


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

There seems to be a lot of confusion around when it comes to pain and the way we perceive it. Pain is just that - a perception. It is the body telling us that something is wrong so we can do something about it.
The idea that animals feel pain differently or less than we do has been in the company of the idea that infants feel pain differently as well. None are true.

We share our method of pain perception with vertebrate animals all the way down to frogs. This makes perfect sense, as human, goat, dog and frog alike need to know when their body is being harmed - or else they would soon perish. If pain wasn't so _painful_ we would be able to ignore it - again, putting ourselves at risk. This is equally necessary for all living things.

However - what and how much the body and brain deem as painful stimulus varies. It is closely linked with how potentially harmful the stimulus actually is. Adversely, things the body programs as necessary and benefitial are deemed pleasureful. Like eating things high in fat or sugar (very scarce commodities in our not-so-distant past) and reproducing.

Yes, we have different thresholds of pain. Some are more sensitive to certain stimuli than others, and vice versa. We can not necessarily judge how sensitive an individual is to a certain stimulus by noticing if they scream and writhe or not - the way we express pain does not equal how we experience it.
That is why we need to look deeper, at what is going on inside the body that might alert us to the answer. We need to see how the animals body reacts internally to the stimulus, if it causes immediate and/or long term behavioural change in any way. We've come a pretty long way in recognizing behavioural patterns that indicate pain in our animals. After all, heart rate, breathing rate, blood pressure and blood or saliva chemical levels isn't so easy for most of us to keep track of. 


Expression of pain is another adaptation, it may be benefitial or detrimental to let our surroundings know that something is painful, sometimes this is expressed indirectly as aggression (get away or I'll attack) rather than directly as pain (ow, you're hurting me).
Avoiding expression of pain is done to avoid looking weak, alerting predators or pack members to an easy target and to enhance the chance of reproduction (all animals are programmed to look for a set of traits in their partner, if one is "off", chances increase it will be discarded as a mate).
We express pain AS pain (ow, that hurts) to alert our pack members to a threat, or to communicate to another pack member to stop hurting us.
We also express pain as aggression, in an attempt to threaten the offending individual to stop, without making us look weak.

Expressions of pain can also be in the form of trying to alleviate it, not to communicate it. These can be very subtle signs, and it is vital we know what to look for in our animals.

Here are a few things that indicate pain:
*unusual body posture
Banded lambs may lay flat on their sides, lie with their hind legs stretched out, sit "like a dog" (keeping their scrotums up from the ground), lean sideways against objects, stand perfectly still, arch their backs.
*abnormal gait 
Swaying walk, walking backwards/in circles, limping.
*raised or lowered activity
Restlessness, kicking feet, rolling, jumping, tail wagging - or reduced normal activity
*abnormal facial expression
Eyes wide open, ears set back, mouth flabbing - banded lambs may curl their lip as in rut.
*vocalization
Bleeting, crying, grunting, alarm sounds.
*changed mental state 
Sleepy, grumpy, hazy, anxious, dull, depressed, excitable, aggressive, shy.
*altered evoked behavior 
Change in normal instinctive reactions, such as running away from danger
*change in behavioural patterns
Eating, sleeping and chewing cud in a different time of day, or reduction of those activities
*trembling
Shaking in the abscence of cold
*responsiveness to pain medication
If the animal changes after being given an appropriate dose of pain relievers, there was pain present.

I recommend this page to read about various pain behaviours and see some pictures:
http://www.link.vet.ed.ac.uk/animalpain/Pages/behaviour.htm



Detecting temperature is another sense entirely. When we feel pain from burns, it is PAIN we are feeling, not warm temperature. When we get frostbite we are feeling the pain signals (not cold temperature) the body is sending to the brain - because the tissues are starting the process of dying off.

Now it REALLY is time for me to get off my soap box....


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

CaliannG said:


> Okay, I am going to have to get o9n a soap box here, mainly because I feel very strongly about the topic. Therefore, bear with me on this.
> 
> *If goats have a shady spot, they will be fine.
> 
> ...


good post


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

Great post Geiss!!

I know, weâre all sick of this thread :run: â yet we keep coming back to read more!

Caliann, I certainly agree with you that they feel pain, as I said; their nervous systems are no different than ours really. I'm not trying to be arguementive in any way but I'll just come out and say this to you though. You've pretty much said that if we disbud, we are treating our animals badly, don't care, don't respect them, are abusing them, etc. I take huge issue with that because it is very unfair. I happen to care very deeply how my animals feel. I HATE disbudding (and tattooing) and making them feel any pain, discomfort or stress. In my heart of hearts, I KNOW my goats are safer without horns so I elect to disbud and I would only dehorn under very certain circumstances (which I can't think of any at this moment) and would have a veterinarian do it under sedation. I do my BEST to manage any pain I cause for those procedures. Geeze, I even took one little doe to a chiropractor (and I was fully prepared to put her down if it didn't work). Between that and some physical and relaxation therapy (lots of rocking to sleep!), she's never had any problems since.
When my son was a baby, I had to take him to his pediatrician for those dang childhood immunizations. He was stressed, felt intense pain and fear, and he suffered like hell all that day, all night, and most of the next day, even with medication. I rocked him and cried along with him until I was SICK. Was I abusing him? Was I mistreating him? (I sure did felt like I had) It was for his benefit in the long run (and some will argue that one too).
Ever have to dig a splinter out of yourself with a needle? Hurts like the dickens but if you don't do it and deal with some pain you'll get an infection.
Does anyone go to the dentist and have their teeth cleaned because it feels so relaxing and enjoyable? I think not. But it's necessary for their own good.
My goat kids suffer for about 20 seconds and they're over it and again, I medicate then an hour before the procedure to help with pain and swelling. It works for me and I have the utmost respect and love for my goats. They're treated better then I treat myself.
I don't mind anyone expressing their feelings about anything but when round-about accusations are made of some being abusive and uncaring, well I don't appreciate that in any way, shape, or form. However, I do sincerely appreciate and respect that you are sensitive to an animalâs feelings and well-being. Thank you for that.
Evidently the OP has weighed the information given and made their own informed decisions about disbudding and whichever way that goes is up to them.


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

KimM said:


> My goat kids suffer for about 20 seconds and they're over it and again, I medicate then an hour before the procedure to help with pain and swelling. It works for me and I have the utmost respect and love for my goats. They're treated better then I treat myself.


Please, do not take this the wrong way. I certainly believe you do what you know how, to make sure your goats are well cared for.
I simply want to ask you this:
You mentioned earlier that you give banamine, right? That is an NSAID, equivalent to ibuprofen in humans. As far as I can tell, it has roughly the same usage. Why not go "heavier" and make sure they are comfortable both during and after the procedure?
Like I said earlier, I have myself been branded, and it hurts ALOT afterwards because the body keeps sending pain signals from the surrounding tissue (alarm alarm, this part's been damaged). Maybe even some numbing gel on the burns and surrounding skin would help? General or local anaesthetic or heavier pain meds certainly would.

Again, not an attack - I just wonder why...


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

Geiss said:


> Please, do not take this the wrong way. I certainly believe you do what you know how, to make sure your goats are well cared for.
> I simply want to ask you this:
> You mentioned earlier that you give banamine, right? That is an NSAID, equivalent to ibuprofen in humans. As far as I can tell, it has roughly the same usage. Why not go "heavier" and make sure they are comfortable both during and after the procedure?
> Like I said earlier, I have myself been branded, and it hurts ALOT afterwards because the body keeps sending pain signals from the surrounding tissue (alarm alarm, this part's been damaged). Maybe even some numbing gel on the burns and surrounding skin would help? General or local anaesthetic or heavier pain meds certainly would.
> ...


I have been in and out of goats for about 30 years. The first time I was in goats, I became good friends with my vet. At that time, he told me that goats did not handle most of the pain medications and anesthesia. He said he "counted his lucky stars" if a goat survived a surgery. He said that the surgery almost never killed the goat, but the anesthesia often did. He gave a goat less than a 50-50 chance of surviving the anesthesia.

At least here in the US, most drugs that are used in goats are "off label" use. That means that the manufacturer has done no testing for goats, and is not making any recommendations. 

And my vet told me recently that the FDA had told him that they are gong to be scrutinizing 'off label' use more closely......and will be doing audits on vets. 

Banamine.....and I am sure most other of the more effective pain meds are "prescriotion-only,".......and it is often difficult to find a vet that includes goats as part of their practice. A vet like that is usually very reluctant to write a prescription for a situation or an anmal that they are not familar with. 

And, actually the FDA had announced that they were considering banning ALL off label use of prescriotion drugs. I believe because there was such an outcry from breeders of animals lilke goats, llamas, and alpacas......the FDA has backed off of that stance for now.

Do you have easier access to pain meds in Norway??.....and are goats included on the label?

BTW, my ex-wife was Norwegian.....and 2 of her cousins visited Norway, met some pretty neat men......moved to Norway, got married, and are still there...and their parents moved back to Norway also. (I do not remember what cities they live in.)


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

billooo2 said:


> Do you have easier access to pain meds in Norway??.....and are goats included on the label?


No, Norway is VERY strict, which I am quite thankful for, even though it makes life harder sometimes. Virtually nothing is over-the-counter and only proffesionals are allowed to do surgical procedures. Therefore we have very limited issues with drug resistance. Sadly, it's now seeping in from abroad with all living things moving around so much beyond borders.

And no, goat medicine is not a focus point, things are done on a trial basis, and if it seems to work it is used. In order for it to be approved, extensive testing is needed and for such "small and therefore uneconomic" animals it just isn't done. The same with dogs and cats, often you will receive drugs intended for human use that are not listed in the Veterinary Catalogue (we have online-available catalogues of all approved human and animal drugs that list all characteristics, uses and effects). If I search for "goat" I get five hits, not much to speak of... 
I also get a few hits on general advice on use, like NSAIDS - it states that NONE of them are approved for goats or sheep, and none of them have recommended withdrawal times (milk and meat). However, dosages for four different NSAIDS are listed for goats.
The same is true for opioids. Buprenorfin and Butorfanol are opioids listed for goats.
For anaesthesia Xylazin is recommended, with atipamezol as reverser ("wake up shot"). Another anaesthetic listed is Detomidin.

After my dog had surgery I was given tablets of Buprenorfin (brand name Temgesic) as pain killer. These are made for human use and are quite powerful, and obviously safe for goats. If anyone is interested in dosages I can list them for you.

My point is not that they need to be completely gone when things are done /that is always risky in any animal), a fraction of the dosage would still relieve them of a LOT of pain!



> BTW, my ex-wife was Norwegian.....and 2 of her cousins visited Norway, met some pretty neat men......moved to Norway, got married, and are still there...and their parents moved back to Norway also. (I do not remember what cities they live in.)


Can't really grasp that one.. Sometimes I wish I lived in a country where you could still have some right of property.. Some say we're the last Soviet state.


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

Geiss said:


> IFor anaesthesia Xylazin is recommended, with atipamezol as reverser ("wake up shot"). Another anaesthetic listed is Detomidin.
> 
> After my dog had surgery I was given tablets of Buprenorfin (brand name Temgesic) as pain killer. These are made for human use and are quite powerful, and obviously safe for goats. If anyone is interested in dosages I can list them for you.
> 
> Can't really grasp that one.. Sometimes I wish I lived in a country where you could still have some right of property.. Some say we're the last Soviet state.


The parents came back to the states fairly often to visit......and they would say if both of their daughters were not there, then they would not be there. And they claimed that they would be back in the states very quickly if "anything were to happen." (I never asked for details of what they meant by that.)


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

I don't feel attacked at all. 
I work very closely with my vets - one who raises Angoras, another who is livestock specialist (his older partner stays in office and does the small animals). There's been a lot of communication, questions and answers and hands on lessons. I'm so very thankful to have access to both of them. Once a year I make a list of Rx meds I think I need to have on hand. We discuss what he feels I need to have and he calls in the scripts for me. 
You can only go so heavy with pain meds for the actual disbudding without causing other problems and I've seen them react and holler even when sedated - that was before I learned to disbud and the vet did a few of mine (and horns grew back :grump. I do saturate the burn with Solarcaine with Aloe spray immediately after as well. I think it helps, as it cools very fast. It works well on MY burns. :shrug: I try to make it as fast and efficient as I possibly can including shaving the horn area. This not only keeps the smoke down but it keeps the iron from cooling too fast as the thick hair insulates too well. When hair is left on, the iron has to sit there for an extra 2 or 3 seconds to burn through that matt before it gets to the skin. I don't like that, it draws it out longer. 
I do give the ND kids 1/4 cc which is a heavier than recommended for their weight. This works very well. You listed pain indicators and I'm glad you did for the sake of people that are new to goats. If you knew me though, you'd know I pay extremely close attention to my goats and I'm very keen to the most subtle changes in my animal's behaviour so I'm really with ya there. 
But still trying to learn more and more.....:nerd:





Geiss said:


> Please, do not take this the wrong way. I certainly believe you do what you know how, to make sure your goats are well cared for.
> I simply want to ask you this:
> You mentioned earlier that you give banamine, right? That is an NSAID, equivalent to ibuprofen in humans. As far as I can tell, it has roughly the same usage. Why not go "heavier" and make sure they are comfortable both during and after the procedure?
> Like I said earlier, I have myself been branded, and it hurts ALOT afterwards because the body keeps sending pain signals from the surrounding tissue (alarm alarm, this part's been damaged). Maybe even some numbing gel on the burns and surrounding skin would help? General or local anaesthetic or heavier pain meds certainly would.
> ...


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## Geiss (Apr 15, 2010)

KimM:

I'm very glad you didn't take offense! I'm also very glad to see that you do so much for pain management and minimization. 

The post I made about pain was not directed to any individual person (I rarely register who says what, actually), it was just to argue against the statement that they "don't scream and seem fine". I am quite sure that owners who genuinely wish no pain on their animals are perfectly capable and willing to learn the signs. But sometimes we have a tendency to close our eyes to unpleasantries, and that can unfortunately be an unnecessary burden on our animals.


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## CaliannG (Apr 29, 2005)

Because my internet is going wonky, or my browser is, and WILL NOT quote the post I WANT it to quote:

KimM said: "Caliann, I certainly agree with you that they feel pain, as I said; their nervous systems are no different than ours really. I'm not trying to be arguementive in any way but I'll just come out and say this to you though. You've pretty much said that if we disbud, we are treating our animals badly, don't care, don't respect them, are abusing them, etc. I take huge issue with that because it is very unfair. I happen to care very deeply how my animals feel."

**********

Kim, would you be so kind as to point out WHERE I even inferred that people who disbud are abusing their animals and that they do not care? Please show me what sentence or paragraph I wrote that said or implied these things? NOT, of course, where some OTHER person implied that I MEANT these things, but where what *I* said something that led you to believe that I believe the people on this board who disbud disrespect their animals and are abusing them?

Because if I did, indeed, give that impression, it is not what I intended. If anything, I am not upset at the INDIVIDUALS that practice this, but at the SYSTEM that encourages it.

Honestly ask yourself: How many people would go through the hassle of disbudding if the show circuit and 4-H clubs did not insist upon it? I know LOTS of people who ONLY disbud because their main market is 4-H and goat show folks, and they honestly cannot afford to lose their biggest market. I am supposed to BLAME them for that? ~blinks~ I am supposed to be accusing them of being careless and abusive because they NEED to be able to sell their kids each season? 

Ummm...no.

Then there are others, much like you, that for one reason or another honestly BELIEVE that they are doing the best they can do for their goats. THAT is a different debate ENTIRELY. Unfortunately, when one gets emotion involved, and also, that full faith that one is doing RIGHT and being PROTECTIVE, etc., etc., it is VERY difficult to change minds.

After all, no matter how much one might place facts, and very logical reasoning in front of someone like that, if they accept that XYZ practice is, indeed, harmful, painful, and/or completely unnecessary.

No *human* is going to want to accept that, and can you blame them? The disbudding topic has in the past, and probably will continue in the future, hold the same sort of emotional pull that circumcision does.

Circumcision removes over 30% of sexual sensation from the male penis, causes scarring and some studies have shown that it is directly related to incidence of E.D. later in life. It has been shown to be damaging and unnecessary.

However, try and put such facts in front of parents who, no matter how many decades ago, had THEIR son(s) circumcised, and you will get such a force of resistance that it will leave your head spinning. NO amount of gentle reason or unemotional facts will even lesson the vehemence which you will be faced.

Why? Because if those parents admit the truth of such things, then they have to admit that they did something hurtful _to their own child_. Even though it was done through ignorance, even if in any OTHER situation, the people in question might be easily swayed by science and fact, when it comes to the idea that they might hurt their child, they will forcefully blind themselves.

It is human nature.

People who care for animals tend to have the same sort of bonds, and react just as vehemently. People who have Boxers will SWEAR that the dog's tail is docked for its own good....that without it being docked, the dog would beat the tail to death through wagging it excessively. They will tell horror stories about cheap, uncaring people that did NOT dock their dog's tails who ended up with dog's that suffered immeasurably, and ended up having to have the tails amputated anyway.

And they will all say that they saw this event (or, most often, SEVERAL events) with their own, two eyes.

None of it is true, of course. Boxers that are not docked to not beat their tails to pieces. Great Danes that do not get their ears cropped do not suffer from massive ear infections. Even the old Australian Shepherd I rescued a few years back has managed to go for 12 years (her whole life), and LOTS of activity, without ripping off her dew claws.

However, if people admitted all that, they would also have to admit that they have been engaging in painful practices for no practical purpose, and NO ONE, not you, not me, not our neighbors, not the people on this board, nor anyone with anything resembling a compassionate heart WANTS to admit something like THAT!

Again, human nature. That is WHY so many inhumane practices have continued throughout the centuries, and WHY so many reasons for continuing such practices have come up....reasons for some things that we ALL laugh about today and say, "They thought WHAT?"

Man (and woman) is not a rational animal; Man (and woman) is a _rationalizing_ animal.

I CERTAINLY do not think that people that disbud thinking they are protecting their animals are uncaring, abusive, and disrespectful of their animals. If anything, I think they care TOO MUCH.


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## VegRN (Jun 23, 2010)

Well, the deed is done. Had the vet come out and re-burn it. I let him talk me into sedation, which I was leery about because of other threads on this forum and other sources. He was concerned about restraining the kid (he did not have a box), and the safety of his partner getting burned. He was also concerned since it was a re-burn it would be more painful and did not want to traumatize the kiddo. He sedated him then injected a local all around the bud, burned it to a nice copper ring, then gave him a CDT and a reversal of the sedative. He was still totally out of it. Gave him another dose of the reversal. No change. Gave a THIRD dose of the reversal (vet seemed concerned but was trying to hide it I believe). Baby finally starts coming to. Now, 3+ hours later he seems normal but for a while was wanting to scratch the bud with his back foot (I think the numbness felt weird to him).

I think it was more traumatizing to me than to him, lol. But, I have to say I will NOT be sedating them again. I was so scared he would not wake up, it was horrible. I took him in the house with me and cuddled on the couch until he was fully awake and trying to squirm away from me, then we went outside and he helped me weed the garden. By that time he seemed fine so I put him back with his cage-mate. 

This experience has proven to me that I MUST invest in an iron and disbudding box and learn to do this properly myself, at a very young age. Even if I do not breed each year and only use it occasionally, it is worth it for the peace of mind that it will be done correctly. And since I will be trying to talk DH into 2 more does on craigslist for an insane low price, I might be getting more involved in this than previously thought. 

Thanks for all the input on both sides of the fence. All the discussion helps to form an educated opinion and helped me make the decision on what is best for my herd.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

VegRN said:


> This experience has proven to me that I MUST invest in an iron and disbudding box and learn to do this properly myself, at a very young age. Even if I do not breed each year and only use it occasionally, it is worth it for the peace of mind that it will be done correctly.


Glad to hear all went well!
Before you need to do this again, see if you can find someone who will teach you how to disbudd properly. Its so much nicer having someone show you, than guessing for the first time. Most guessers get scurs, thats natural.
I applaud you deciding to do it yourself. It is a lot of peace of mind.


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## VegRN (Jun 23, 2010)

I will definitely seek out the experienced breeders in my area. I have read and re-read the tutorial on Fiasco Farms' site, and have watched two done by vets. My does will not be bred for at least a month or so, so I have at least 6 mos. to study and summon the courage, lol. When the time comes I am sure I will be prepared! I have always said that no one will take care of my animals the way that I do, so this should be no different. Just a new skill I need to learn!


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

I love your determination and it will pay off. Try and go help someone do some disbudding as much as you can, it'll help. Last spring I was where you are. Now I do ND kids for everyone around here and help my original teacher sometimes! And when you think you're ready and go to do your first kid, it's harder than you can imagine. But what made it easier for me to do it was to practice holding the iron and rocking it around on a board to get the feel of consistant pressure of the iron tip against a solid surface with my hand. (did that make any sense??) Then heat that baby up and make some circles in the board. Get a feel for the iron before you put it to your first kid. Truly that'll help you. 
You can do it!
Just don't watch too many YouTube how-to's on disbudding, I haven't seen even one that impressed me and most I can't stomach watching as they're very excessive, IMO. 
I _still_ think Emily needs to make a tutorial video. 





VegRN said:


> I will definitely seek out the experienced breeders in my area. I have read and re-read the tutorial on Fiasco Farms' site, and have watched two done by vets. My does will not be bred for at least a month or so, so I have at least 6 mos. to study and summon the courage, lol. When the time comes I am sure I will be prepared! I have always said that no one will take care of my animals the way that I do, so this should be no different. Just a new skill I need to learn!


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## billooo2 (Nov 23, 2004)

VegRN said:


> I will definitely seek out the experienced breeders in my area. I have read and re-read the tutorial on Fiasco Farms' site, and have watched two done by vets. My does will not be bred for at least a month or so, so I have at least 6 mos. to study and summon the courage, lol. When the time comes I am sure I will be prepared! I have always said that no one will take care of my animals the way that I do, so this should be no different. Just a new skill I need to learn!



I would just add to make sure that the iron is very hot......it will burn quicker and be less traumatic. 
And make sure that you get a GOOD iron. From watching some of the you-tube videos..... all irons are NOT the same.
IMO, spend the extra money and get a very good one!!!!!
I got lucky when I bought my iron.....I did not know that much then, but I have a good one......and my disbuddings are FAR less traumtic than ANY that I have seen on You-Tube!!!


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## VegRN (Jun 23, 2010)

What do y'all recommend as far as irons go? I was thinking of the Rhinehart X50, but then I saw that the X30 is recommended ever more for goats by some people. I do not have cows and probably never will, so having a changeable tip is not an issue. I have nigies and will probably stick with the breed, although I would not rule out a full size dairy breed someday so something that would work for both would be nice. 

I think even the expensive ones are pretty reasonable, so price is not as much of an issue as getting a good tool is, for me.


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## KimM (Jun 17, 2005)

I have the X50 and I like that I can change the tip when it becomes thin, they do wear out but it would probably take you a very long time to wear yours out. The tip on the X30 is fixed so if anything does happen to it, the whole until has to be replaced. Invest in some good, yet soft leather gloves too. I use my X50 on all my NDs as well as standard breeds. I'm sure either model will work for you.



VegRN said:


> What do y'all recommend as far as irons go? I was thinking of the Rhinehart X50, but then I saw that the X30 is recommended ever more for goats by some people. I do not have cows and probably never will, so having a changeable tip is not an issue. I have nigies and will probably stick with the breed, although I would not rule out a full size dairy breed someday so something that would work for both would be nice.
> 
> I think even the expensive ones are pretty reasonable, so price is not as much of an issue as getting a good tool is, for me.


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## VegRN (Jun 23, 2010)

Good point about the tip wearing out, I did not think about that. Much easier/cheaper to replace the tip than the whole unit.


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## ozark_jewels (Oct 7, 2005)

I wouldn't buy anything other than the X50. But I do a lot of kids for myself and a lot of kids for others. I like it because it gets hot and stays hot. For someone just doing a few, the X30 may work just as well.
Be aware that the X50(don't know about the X30, its been years since I've seen one), has a toggle switch beneath the tip. One side is for soldering("S"), one side is for disbudding("D"). Make sure its switched to the "D" side when you disbudd.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

OK, so, it can be used on electronics and goat heads? Odd....


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