# A question about snakes.



## Ardie/WI

Water moccasins in particular.

We've been watching "Lonesome Dove". Love it, by the way.

There is a scene where a cattle drive crosses some water after a storm. Most everyone gets across except one young man. As he crosses that water a bunch of water moccasins attack him. Ultimately he dies.

Do the snakes really do that?


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## big rockpile

Most water moccasins I've seen if they don't see me I can wave my hand and they will go the other way.The closes I've been to one I was fishing,fell off to sleep and one crawled up on my chest.When I moved it crawled off.

I would figure the most trouble you would have with snakes would be some place warm in the Winter,like in a cave or up under a house :shrug: 

big rockpile


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## EDDIE BUCK

I've been around water all my life and have never seen water moccasins school up like in the movie. But where I live, they don't run from anything. If you start getting close to one, most of the time they will open that white as cotton mouth dareing you to come closer. http://www.carolinanature.com/herps/cottonmouth.html http://www.wf.net/~snake/moccasin.htm JUST PLANE MEAN  Eddie


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## tyusclan

That made a dramatic scene in the movie, but I've never known of cottonmouths doing that.

Then of course, I don't know everything either.


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## Guest

The only time I've seen snakes ball up is when they are mating. One female and a hoard of males. They don't seem to be interested in biting anyone either. 

Theirs a difference between a common water mocasin and a cotton mouth. Most water mocasins will slither away from you while most cotton mouths will stand (lay) their ground. 

Cotton mouths and copperheads I fear the most. Both would rather bite at you then crawl away from you.


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## Old Vet

Well I have been bitten by a Cotton Mouth before and it made me sick but I did not die yet. I wnet to the hospitial and they gave me some Benedril in a shot then let me go home and get sick. I was alright the next day. The only way a snake can kill you is to have the bight not looked at or he got a vien.


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## Guest

An old fella I used to fish with got bit on 2 occasions at the same fishing spot. Had to walk down the side of a levee to the fishing hole and Cottos Mouths crawled up there to lay in the sun. The first time it didn't bother him at all but the second time his leg swelled up about twice normal size before he got to the hospital. Never did make him very sick.


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## Petsguy

r.h. in okla. said:


> Theirs a difference between a common water mocasin and a cotton mouth. Most water mocasins will slither away from you while most cotton mouths will stand (lay) their ground.


Ugh, Sorry, but you are incorrect. A water mocasin and a cotton mouth are the same snake, Agkistrodon piscivorus. There are however 3 subspecies, the eastern, the florida, and the western. Common Water snakes of the genus Natrix, tend to be aggressive, but generally Cotton mouth/water mocasins will retreat slowly when confronted. Many common water snakes (Natrix species) are killed as misidentified Cotton mouth. I can't count the number of fisherman I have spoken with over the years who swear they just killed a cotton mouth, when in fact the cotton mouth aren't even found in the area. These are the same fisherman who literally freak out when I pick up these same "cotton mouth". They still rarely believe me even when I show them that they don't have fangs and are generally a harmless snakes. Oh well...what can you do.

Take care,
Jeff Port


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## WildBillTN

Lots of folks around here call a banded water snake a "water moccasin", but the cottonmouth is a different snake altogether.


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## homefire2007

I'm originally from snake country in Texas. I've never seen nor heard of water moccasins/cottonmouths banding up like that..... Copperheads are much more aggressive, cotton mouths will try to avoid you. I think that scene took dramatic liscence. P.S. I love that movie!


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## legacy

When I was a crazy kid, we used to go snake hunting. Still amazes me that we didn't get bitten. Of course, the majority of the ones we caught were non-venemous but we got quite a few timber rattlers and copperheads. The scarest one I ever came across was a cottonmouth. It was a big one, it hissed, vibrated it's tail and it would not back off. It gave off some sort a scent that is hard for me to describe. Extremely aggressive--far more so than the rattlers and copperheads we caught. Still gives me the creeps thinking about it. We left that one alone.

The idea of falling into a swarm of them is a bad dream sure enough.


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## Cheryl aka JM

I've never seen the movie~ but I agree that the idea of the snakes ganging up is highly unlikely. It's anthropamorphic ~Not sure about the spelling~ but I mean it is attributing human characteristics to a non-human. Snakes are simply NOT smart enough to come with a "plan" to ambush someone. They are not social enough to be together except for a specific purpose ~as in breeding, burmating (kind of like hibernating)~ or if one snake has a very good feeding or basking area other snakes may be present as they attempt to claim that area for themselves.....not by some thought out plot to take it......but often by the simple expeidient of eating the snake that was there first.

A LOT of human fear of snakes is in our insistence on considering them much smarter than they are. They are not all that smart~ they can BE dangerous.....but are NOT out there thinking up ways to cause trouble......often they are too stupid to avoid trouble!


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## Guest

Petsguy said:


> Ugh, Sorry, but you are incorrect. A water mocasin and a cotton mouth are the same snake, Agkistrodon piscivorus. There are however 3 subspecies, the eastern, the florida, and the western. Common Water snakes of the genus Natrix, tend to be aggressive, but generally Cotton mouth/water mocasins will retreat slowly when confronted. Many common water snakes (Natrix species) are killed as misidentified Cotton mouth. I can't count the number of fisherman I have spoken with over the years who swear they just killed a cotton mouth, when in fact the cotton mouth aren't even found in the area. These are the same fisherman who literally freak out when I pick up these same "cotton mouth". They still rarely believe me even when I show them that they don't have fangs and are generally a harmless snakes. Oh well...what can you do.
> 
> Take care,
> Jeff Port



Well they might be kin to each other. But to me if they look different, built different, and act different, and don't breed with each other, then they are two different species of snakes. Period.


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## OkieDavid

I've seen several species of Natrix in Oklahoma and yes I've known many folks to call them water moccasin. To me, a cotton mouth and water moccasin are two names for the same critter......As to the OP, I've never seen a bunch of snakes ball up other than mating. I've never seen a natrix do more than startle you when they break and run. I have seen cotton mouths stand their ground, flash their mouth. They also emit a fairly strong smell and once you are introduced to it you will generally smell them before you see them.

P.S. Here is a tip for ya. All of the poisonous snakes NATURALLY (got to allow for some idiot losing a cobra in Florida) occuring in North America are pit vipers with the single exception of the coral snake. All the pit vipers share the trait of vertical pupils (like a cat). The coral snake and all other non venomous snakes have circular pupils (like us). Remember- pupil like us, safe like us. Pupil like a cat, will kill you like a cat. Sadly though, most folks would have to kill it to feel comfortable getting close enough to look at it's pupils LOL.


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## Petsguy

r.h. in okla. said:


> Well they might be kin to each other. But to me if they look different, built different, and act different, and don't breed with each other, then they are two different species of snakes. Period.


I guess you don't get it. Those are both names used by many for the same snake. What you are calling a water moccasin may be, as some have said here, a common water snake. In that case I agree, a common water snake (what you are calling a water moccasin) is not the same as a cotton mouth. Also then, your water mocasin is not a venomous snake either.

Here are a couple pics of Cotton mouth. First one is an adult and the second a juvenile.


















Here are a couple pics of a common water snake. You can seen the round pupils in the second pic. Also, the shape of the head is different in the cotton mouth, more of a diamond shape. Where as the watersnake's head is not as angular.



















Take care,
Jeff Port


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## L.A.

My understanding from the movie was a early flood had washed out a den before the snakes had moved out. In that case they would be "balled up" together. I don't know if they would attack like that though.


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## homefire2007

OkieDavid, I hope I never get close enough to look at their pupils..... :help: I've killed my share of western diamondbacks...out of necessity (they were after pets or I startled one) when I was younger. I'll never forget the morning my grandfather popped the hood on his truck to discover a rattler had crawled up in the engine to get warm overnight........  Thats what I like about Vermont...only a few timber rattlers :dance:


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## Delrio

*"I hope I never get close enough to look at their pupils..."*

I came home one day from the grocery store and I noticed a snake half way in the back door. I got a shovel and chopped it up. My husband called a while later and when I told him the story he asked what kind of snake it was. I said, "Chop snake." Then he asked if it had round eyes. I informed him that I wasn't getting that close!!


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## Big Dave

Lived on the Brazos for close to ten years. So I can only speak from what I experienced. There was a slew behind my home. During June and July there was a lot of water snakes breeding. I have seen the balls quite often in that slew.
Urban legend is a guy was water skiing and fell into a breeding ball. I have never seen the Lonesome Dove dramatization. Those snakes stink. My ex wife was bitten. She told me she could taste a rubber taste in her mouth. my .02


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## OkieDavid

Delrio said:


> *"I hope I never get close enough to look at their pupils..."*
> 
> I came home one day from the grocery store and I noticed a snake half way in the back door. I got a shovel and chopped it up. My husband called a while later and when I told him the story he asked what kind of snake it was. I said, "Chop snake." Then he asked if it had round eyes. I informed him that I wasn't getting that close!!


ROFL....You sound like my wife. I've kept snakes of various species for years until we were married. Her M.O. was to kill EVERY snake on sight. I tried and tried to get her to identify it before she killed it but she never would. One day I came home from work and she met me on the porch with a HUGE grin on her face. She was so proud because while working in the garden she came across a "cute" little snake. She chased it from one end of the potato row to the other and never could quite catch it "bare handed" even though she got close several times. Finally cornered it with a shovel and scooped it into a small ice chest and anxiously awaited my arrival. I popped the top on the cooler expecting to see a king snake or such and was instantly greated with the unmistakable "bee buzz" of a pygmy rattler.......I gently pinned it's head and picked it up, got it to open fang a small stick and showed her and the kids the rattles and fangs.......Her only experience with rattlers was the six foot Western Diamondbacks you see in the movies. Once her breathing returned to normal and the color somewhat returned to her face, I told her to return to her old ways and resume killing all snakes LOL. We've since lived happily ever after LOL......

Edit: it actually was a beautifully colored 6 inch rattler and I must admit it was "cute"


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## Delrio

Actually, I'm not that bad with snakes when I know what they are. I just couldn't see the front of this one. We had a black snake hanging from my flowers in the garden last year waiting for his prey while I was out there weeding next to him. In fact, my husband came in at another time with a 6 footer and asked me where I wanted it, the garden or the barn!! So far everything here has been non-poisonous.


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## Guest

Moccasins around here generally don't bite unless stepped on or pestered. Water snakes will bite in a heartbeat. One time I was helping remove some large slabs of broken concrete that was dumped in a large ditch. A guy down in the ditch would throw a chain around them and I was up on the bank to lift them out with a backhoe. I raised one large chunk up and there was a ball of water snakes under it. They were MAD and the snakes were all striking in different directions. Looked like about a hundred of them but I'm sure it was less. I don't mind snakes but that was sort of creepy. I still think about it if I am fishing and there is rip-rap along the shore.


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## fishhead

I made the mistake of picking up a water snake while going to school in AL. In a split second one end was wrapped around my arm smearing a foul smelling oily liquid and the other end was biting me about 5 times a second. That was the last one I picked up. 

We did have some students say they were followed one night by a water moccasin. It was after their flashlights.


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## Guest

fishhead said:


> I made the mistake of picking up a water snake while going to school in AL. In a split second one end was wrapped around my arm smearing a foul smelling oily liquid and the other end was biting me about 5 times a second. That was the last one I picked up.
> 
> We did have some students say they were followed one night by a water moccasin. It was after their flashlights.


  I'm here to tell you that a cute little chipmunk can bite that fast too. I kill all water snakes I see on my pond because they are aggressive and we have small grandkids around often. We don't get many moccasins though.


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## paulaswolfpack

Growing up we always went swimming at Beaver Lake in Ark. and I have known of 3 people who jumped into the water and got bitten to death by many of the snakes it seems they juped into their nests were there are hunderds of snakes and sometimes this nests float around,Paula


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## Gregg Alexander

I have seen clusters of cotton mouths when breeding, they get very aggressive at that time.


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## Standupguy

paulaswolfpack said:


> Growing up we always went swimming at Beaver Lake in Ark. and I have known of 3 people who jumped into the water and got bitten to death by many of the snakes it seems they juped into their nests were there are hunderds of snakes and sometimes this nests float around,Paula



Snakes lay eggs or give live birth...no "nest" in water. Remind too not go swimming with you though


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