# Dangerous dogs: how to become a statistic



## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I'm sure you have heard about what happened in Virginia recently. Young girl killed by her dogs. I saw people immediately jump on social media with all kinds of excuses, explanations, and et cetra.
Many were quick to point out that something sounded "fishy". The authorities originally reported that the dogs were guarding the body. People took this to mean that the dogs were loyal good fur babies and some other foul play must have occurred. Authorities later clarified, yes the dogs were guarding the body, as most higher predators will guard their kill. They observed the dogs feeding on the carcass.

The term "pit bull" was thrown around a lot. An almost meaningless term encompassing several breeds, and all kinds of mixes, that people believe encompasses the only dogs capable of such behavior. Some people automatically jumped on the "they must have been trained to fight" bandwagon. There is no training required for fighting dogs, outside of training to handle, which these obviously were not. Just like a coonhound is bred to trail and tree a raccoon, or a lab is bred to retrieve, or a BC is bred to herd things, the mollossers are bred to bite and hold things. The dogs in question were obviously mostly mollosser type dogs with a terrier component. The terrier is bred to kill, high energy, but usually small. Among fighting dogs, back when there were people besides thugs doing it, dogs that showed human aggression were normally culled on the spot. Does you no good to have a winner if he bites the handler while pulling him off the loser, very frowned upon. These traits are no longer being actively selected for, human aggression has been encouraged in some more recent breeding, with influence from other breeds with a longer history of being bred for human aggression. 

The problem here was a person with too much dog, and too many dog. They were house pets, she moved out and they lived in a kennel at her dad's place. They became their own pack, and she drifted out of that pack. She came for one of her sporadic care visits to walk them. They probably had automatic feeders, sounds like she was just coming in two or three times a week. She took them for a walk and who knows what really triggered it, but the foundation was laid at that point and it doesn't matter what triggered it. Something would have triggered it eventually, regardless. She had two dogs that she couldn't handle, and she was not the alpha dog, and they decided to reinforce that fact. They killed her, and then they ate her.

Don't have more dog than you are capable of handling, and if you are dead set on having one of the harder breeds, make sure you are the alpha dog. With the harder breeds, and it's not just pits, it is a constant, every day process. This is what happens if you get lax.





 the friend in this video doesn't get it.

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/police-reveal-gruesome-details-woman-060840582.html just for clarification. Some would have you believe they were just eating her to protect her from other scavengers I guess.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Tonight news said they couldnt do bitemeasurement s because the pieces were to small...but the Sheriff said he saw the dogs eating the rib cage. i dont understand why they can't get measurement s. Or why they need them.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

I spose they need it for proof that it was those dogs. course they know it was. anyway this is what I think also. same as Barnbilder. she drifted out of the pack. I could be wrong but I thought I read where she only came to see them once a week at a kennel at her fathers where before they were together all the time. jmo though. ~Georgia


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

People don't want to admit what happened.
6 months ago, a couple dogs were found in a pen with several dead sheep and goats. Knowing that proof that the dogs had killed the livestock would mean the dogs would be euthanized, the local Animal Control Officer determined that since she didn't see blood on the dogs, the dogs likely just scared off the coyotes that may have done the killing.

I have been working in Detroit for awhile and had the chance to talk, at length, with a "pit bull" expert, the Director of Detroit Animal Control. They experience the pack behavior every day.
He explained that pit bulls seldom attack adult owners, for the reasons mentioned earlier. But leave the harmless, friendly dog in the room with a child or baby and instinct brings tragedy.

Some say they have them for guard dogs, but that doesn't work. Most pits, when the burglar opens the door and orders the dog into a closet or garage, the dog obeys. Better to have a brainless yappy Yorkie that won't obey and barks relentlessly, possibly alerting neighbors.

But the animal shelters fill up with pits and pit crosses, most get the needle after a few days.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

That's true, and it's a shame.
Good dogs are hard to find and worth their weight in gold - just like a good spouse.
(Not intended to say anything derogatory about spouses, lol. I just love a good dog.)


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I have never heard of someone being mauled or killed by an English Setter. 
If anyone has any information on the potential danger of this breed I would appreciate hearing it.

Of course, I am biased.


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## Jlynnp (Sep 9, 2014)

Any dog/breed can be dangerous. People need to remember they are only a short step away from a wolf.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

JJ Grandits said:


> I have never heard of someone being mauled or killed by an English Setter.
> If anyone has any information on the potential danger of this breed I would appreciate hearing it.
> 
> Of course, I am biased.


I found a few with a quick google search, they were euthanized.
But in those cases it appears to be an anomaly, a mental defect like a serial killer in humans.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

farmrbrown said:


> I found a few with a quick google search, they were euthanized.
> But in those cases it appears to be an anomaly, a mental defect like a serial killer in humans.


I would assume so. Of all the breeds noted for their gentle nature they are probably at or close to the top of the list.

I've owned several breeds of dogs and numerous mutts but the English Setters have for some reason always stood alone.

Gentle Prima Donna's, incredible athletes.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

JJ Grandits said:


> I would assume so. Of all the breeds noted for their gentle nature they are probably at or close to the top of the list.
> 
> I've owned several breeds of dogs and numerous mutts but the English Setters have for some reason always stood alone.
> 
> Gentle Prima Donna's, incredible athletes.


That's been my experience of owning many different breeds, including those on the annual lists of "dangerous" dogs like Rottweilers and Pits.
The overwhelming majority behaved according to how they were trained and raised.
I did find one poor female Rottie at the pound that even I couldn't approach without her showing fear and aggression. She was found on the streets surviving on her own and obviously had many bad encounters with humans.
I wish I could have taken her and spent the time needed to rehabilitate her, but it just wasn't possible.
My 2nd wish would have been to spend 5 minutes alone with every one of her abusers............

Oh well, Christmas IS tomorrow.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

I see another woman dead tonight. pit bull attack. husband injured. this was in Kentucky I think. it wasn't their dogs. they were out for a walk I think. the husband shot one of them. other one I thought I heard was injured but loose. what a shame! ~Georgia


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

No matter what anyone says or thinks. Training will never trump instincts or genetics. You can not train a lion to a be a domestic house cat by raising it right. Genetics by far have the largest effect on how a dog acts.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Jreed said:


> No matter what anyone says or thinks. Training will never trump instincts or genetics. You can not train a lion to a be a domestic house cat by raising it right. Genetics by far have the largest effect on how a dog acts.


So true!
I hear all the time about pits that are only dangerous when trained to be. Clearly the pits closest to the fighting pits will show their instincts far more clearly, but it exists in even the seemingly quietest pit.
One only needs to see a young Border Collie react when first seeing a flock of sheep. Instinct fuels their herding instinct.
But a Pit Bull breed ban creates Staffordshire Terriers or any number of fighting breeds.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Jreed said:


> No matter what anyone says or thinks. Training will never trump instincts or genetics. You can not train a lion to a be a domestic house cat by raising it right. Genetics by far have the largest effect on how a dog acts.


If that were true, then we would never train any animal for any reason.
Knowing that BOTH have to be considered is the smart way to look at it.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

Be my guest train a zebra to be a pleasure saddle animal or a badger to catch moles on your lawn and live in a dog house. While domestic animals through natural selection have the genetics to be more trainable expose a well trained horse to fire and see how it does a dressage routine. Starve a domestic dog and see how well it listens and behaves to training commands. In Truth what we call training is habitual conditioning for a positive and mutually beneficial relationship between man and beast. Yet it still remains that this is a thin line at best one " act of God " away from exposing genetic potential. In the case of domestic cats it has long been wondered who has trained who for surviving.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

It in fact only takes 3 generation for a domestic pig to revert to the same genetic characteristics that mark feral hogs this alone shows how tied to genetics our domestic animals are even it can not be physically seen. Why anyone would cross a mastiff/ mollosser with a terrier I have no idea. Any terrier over 30 lbs has the capability of being a very very scary animal.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

While the nature vs. nurture debate is a fine one to have, the percentages aren't exact and written in stone.
Of course genetics is a huge factor and I'd agree is more than 50%, but knowing how much more than 50% is not something I'll hang my hat on.
75%, 99% or 50.1%?
Who knows for sure?


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

newfieannie said:


> I see another woman dead tonight. pit bull attack. husband injured. this was in Kentucky I think. it wasn't their dogs. they were out for a walk I think. the husband shot one of them. other one I thought I heard was injured but loose. what a shame! ~Georgia[/QUOTE
> The owner was in jail at the time the dogs attacked. The lady was feeding her own cats in her own yard. Sad. I just wonder if the dogs were starving? And that added to the attack.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

farmrbrown said:


> While the nature vs. nurture debate is a fine one to have, the percentages aren't exact and written in stone.
> Of course genetics is a huge factor and I'd agree is more than 50%, but knowing how much more than 50% is not something I'll hang my hat on.
> 75%, 99% or 50.1%?
> Who knows for sure?


Does it matter ?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Jreed said:


> Does it matter ?


Odd question.
I'd have to answer, "yes".
Obviously a dog's genes AND how it's treated both matter. Since there are differences and variables just like any other species, it would be good to know how much of each had how much influence and use that knowledge to act accordingly.
That's how I always looked at it anyway.
I know my individual dog, their personality, fears, desires and know the characteristics of each breed.


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## oceantoad (May 21, 2009)

Jreed, have always said that if you could get a Chihuahua up to 60 pounds that you would have a real monster.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

If the genetics of a dog can determine more than 10% of its actions if should be treated accordingly. The issue is often people deny genetics as a reasonable driving force for behavior


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

oceantoad said:


> Jreed, have always said that if you could get a Chihuahua up to 60 pounds that you would have a real monster.


how about a humming bird as big as a helicopter ?


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## royB (Dec 15, 2004)

barnbilder said:


> Don't have more dog than you are capable of handling, and if you are dead set on having one of the harder breeds, make sure you are the alpha dog. With the harder breeds, and it's not just pits, it is a constant, every day process. This is what happens if you get lax.


It is sad that this young lady had to succumb to this fate. Her dogs were doing what dogs do. Should they be put done, yes. but only because they will likely never be fit for most people to have as pets.

Having worked with 2 different high volume rescues of a larger breed as a foster/trainer, I was always gifted the "difficult" dogs and if anyone had one that showed any signs of being difficult I was asked to step in. Being alpha is the one and only thing that will give you control. You have to know that you are in charge and believe it with all of your being. If the dog senses any hesitation and its has the desire to be alpha, it will take control. That's just how packs work. If you can find them, Cesar Millan videos are a great example of how to be alpha.


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## royB (Dec 15, 2004)

jreed, I have seen pit bulls that were the biggest babies and chows that would rather eat you then look at you. I do not believe that breed has anything to do with predestination of aggression. It is how the dog is handled and the fact that some tend to be handled in a more aggressive manor to me is not enough proof that a breed defines the dog. I bred and raised German shepherds a long time ago. Would they protect you and your house, no doubt, but if introduced accordingly, they would rather lay in your lap.


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## DryLandFish (May 13, 2017)

We've raised and trained several generations of GSD's from various bloodlines. It's our opinion that dog temperament is a very individual thing. The vast majority of what are considered by many to be a dangerous breed (German Shepherds) are terrific dogs with proper socialization and training. But occasionally, some genetic switch will get flipped on and you'll get a particular dog with a nasty temperament that no amount of training can make right. 

Over several decades, we only had one such dog. Raised from birth with all the attention and training the others got, he could not be around people outside our family. It was like owning a trained tiger. Muzzled for the vet and taken in through the back. There were even times I could not handle him -if he were in pain or there was a heat to be smelled. Outside of that, he was a great dog. Smart. Knew dozens of words. Was very focused. But if we hadn't lived in the middle of nowhere and could not be confident in properly containing him, he would have been out of luck. We certainly would never have considered breeding him.


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## boerboy (Oct 7, 2012)

Jreed said:


> Be my guest train a zebra to be a pleasure saddle animal or a badger to catch moles on your lawn and live in a dog house. While domestic animals through natural selection have the genetics to be more trainable expose a well trained horse to fire and see how it does a dressage routine. Starve a domestic dog and see how well it listens and behaves to training commands. In Truth what we call training is habitual conditioning for a positive and mutually beneficial relationship between man and beast. Yet it still remains that this is a thin line at best one " act of God " away from exposing genetic potential. In the case of domestic cats it has long been wondered who has trained who for surviving.


I believe you are correct.

To me it is not even not trusting them. Rather respecting them for their instincts. 

I go into my 250# horned boer buck to check his lamacha.... But not one sec I will be careless. LOL


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## boerboy (Oct 7, 2012)

Today I saw below post in CL.










Passion gone irresponsible!???

I know blueheelers have dingo in them. I like the breed. But this sounds too risky.

Also mixing a herder or guard breed and predator could torment the character of the resulting dog... No?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Yep, bad genetics extends to humans as well.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

boerboy said:


> Today I saw below post in CL.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shoot I'd check out the parents then take one in a heartbeat if they checked out OK... I recently had to put down my wolf dog due to old age. Wonderful, intelligent animal.

My daughter had a heeler - very protective, wouldn't trust it for a second.
I now own a part pit - a cuddle bunny.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

oceantoad said:


> Jreed, have always said that if you could get a Chihuahua up to 60 pounds that you would have a real monster.


A Pomeranian that size would be much worse - they have an attitude problem.


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## mnmsmom (Oct 22, 2016)

You should have met my nephew's Chihuahua, tried biting ankles all the time. I don't mean nipping, I mean throwing itself at you with a truly vicious intent and refusing to stop. Don't want to see the bigger version of that little demon.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

mnmsmom said:


> You should have met my nephew's Chihuahua, tried biting ankles all the time. I don't mean nipping, I mean throwing itself at you with a truly vicious intent and refusing to stop. Don't want to see the bigger version of that little demon.


Yeah, Chihuahua, Pomeranians and Pekineses are the most vicious dogs around, however there is a big difference between the bites of one of these miniature Napoleons and a bite from a real dog.

I've ran into Pomeranians that I thought would take my ankle off if they could only get past my boots.


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

My chihuahua takes the food dish away from the resident German Shepherd


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

oldasrocks said:


> My chihuahua takes the food dish away from the resident German Shepherd


My 8 lb cat, will stand at the (shared)water dish even when done drinking if the 90 # dog is standing there waiting. The other night I had to pick the cat up and move her so the dog could get a drink.


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

royB said:


> jreed, I have seen pit bulls that were the biggest babies and chows that would rather eat you then look at you. I do not believe that breed has anything to do with predestination of aggression. It is how the dog is handled and the fact that some tend to be handled in a more aggressive manor to me is not enough proof that a breed defines the dog. I bred and raised German shepherds a long time ago. Would they protect you and your house, no doubt, but if introduced accordingly, they would rather lay in your lap.



Breed has predestination? No Genetics is the key ....


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## Jreed (Dec 24, 2014)

boerboy said:


> Today I saw below post in CL.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is I am saving the wild animals by raising wolves disease


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Great thread.

Whatever separates these pitbulls from a dog that would rather starve to death than kill even the weakest of its starving human pack mates, I for one think it's a lot to do with genes. Some people will say that you just have to imprint yourself as the pack alpha, and that is important, but... Go do that with a pack of wolves, and see what happens when the Beta finds out that you drop like daisy when he/she challenges you because you haven't been able to find the food. Where are your fangs? Why can't you run? They're going to wonder.

I think most modern dogs, even some of the tough working lines, just won't see you as part of the dog-eat-dog circle of life, no matter how rough things get. Hence your street dogs laying by their dead pack mate and refusing to leave them even as cars rip by. We've all seen those videos. But I think even that dog could do you in if you aren't really bonded.

(Edited for clarity)


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## Florida Steve (Jan 30, 2018)

No matter how much people want to defend certain breeds by blaming training for a dogs behavior, it's typically breeding that's the cause. Some breeds were selectively bred for behavior that is not long term compatible with the family/social dynamic. When a dog of that type is raised in a nurturing environment, most won't ever show the type of behavior we're discussing here, but some will. Think of them as a loaded gun which will not go off unless something triggers the weapon. Certain breeds are just much more likely to respond to an environmental trigger in a terrible manner. I worked for 26 years as a paramedic/firefighter and I've seen dozens of truly nasty dog inflicted injuries and one horrific death of a 6 year old. I could count the breeds responsible on a few fingers...


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## boerboy (Oct 7, 2012)

Appears that each one of us are influenced with our experiences to form the opinion...

Breed does matter. Like intelligence, trainability, herding instinct, tracking, pointing, retrieving, fighting, guarding, etc. 

When I get my next dog, it will be definitely a large dog, mostly a mix of two or three breeds, for a rural homesteading setup... I will definitely be mindful about the breed specifics during raising, training, keeping


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## oceantoad (May 21, 2009)

Florida Steve,
What were the breeds that you could name? Were German Shepherd and Pitt a couple of the breeds?


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

mnn2501 said:


> A Pomeranian that size would be much worse - they have an attitude problem.


As long as we're on this subject, I'd say Min-Pins would be the worst of them all. I have yet to meet one who doesn't think everything within two blocks needs to leave or get bit. And every one of their owners thinks it's cute and hilarious. The whole time I'm thinking.... "I still have my steel toes on you little..."


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