# herding dogs?



## JPiantedosi (Apr 23, 2012)

besides collies (border and otherwise) and australian shepherds, what are some herding dogs ya'll like?

Im thinking i would like to raise and train a working herding dog. dad had border collies, and my wifes family had aussies, im curiouse what else might be out there. I wont have a heeler.....

Any shorthaired options?

Jim


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

There are short haired border collies but my long haired dog is incredibly easy to care for coat wise. After springer spaniels most are but seriously my BC's long hair is no issue and we have lots of burrs. I hope you get more replies (and I am sure you will) it should be interesting!


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## secuono (Sep 28, 2011)

Here are 3 lists of dogs, some repeat.
But the issue isn't so much as what breed, but what real working line can you find and pay for. 
Australian Cattle Dog
Australian Shepherd
Bearded Collie
Beauceron
Belgian Laekenois
Belgian Malinois
Belgian Sheepdog
Belgian Tervuren
Bergamasco
Border Collie
Bouvier des Flandres
Briard
Canaan Dog
Cardigan Welsh Corgi
Collie
Entlebucher Mountain Dog
Finnish Lapphund
German Shepherd
Icelandic Sheepdog
Norwegian Buhund

Afghan Hound
American Indian Dog
American Pit Bull Terrier
American White Shepherd
Appenzell Mountain Dog
Australian Cattle Dog
Australian Kelpie
Australian Shepherd
Bearded Collie
Beauceron
Belgian Laekenois
Belgian Malinois
Belgian Shepherd/Groenendael
Belgian Tervuren
Bergamasco Sheepdog
Berger Picard
Bernese Mountain Dog
Black Mouth Cur
Black Norwegian Elkhound
Blue Lacy
Bohemian Shepherd
Border Collie
Bouvier des Flandres
Briard
Canaan Dog
Cao de fila de Sao Miguel
Cao da Serra de Aires
Cardigan Welsh Corgi
Collie
Corgis
Croatian Sheepdog
Czechoslovakian Wolfdog
Dakotah Shepherd
Danish Swedish Farm Dog
Dutch Shepherd
English Shepherd
Fila Brasileiro
Florida/Cracker Cur
German Shepherd Dog
Giant Schnauzer
Hovawart
Icelandic Sheepdog
King Shepherd
Koolie
Lancashire Heeler
Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog
Malinois X
Mountain Cur
Mountain View Cur
Mudi
New Zealand Huntaway
New Zealand Heading Dog
Norwegian Elkhound
Norwegian Buhund
Old English Sheepdog
Pembroke Welsh Corgi
Polish Owczarek Nizinny
Puli
Pumi
Roman Rottweiler
Rottweiler
Saarlooswolfhond
Schipperke
Scotch Collie
Shetland Sheepdog
Shiloh Shepherd
Spanish Water Dog
Standard German Spitz
Stumpy Tail Cattle dog
Swedish Vallhund
Texas Heeler
Tibetan Spaniel
Welsh Sheepdog

Altdeutsche HÃ¼tehunde[11] (Tiger, Gelbbacke, Harzer Fuchs, Kuhhund, Schafpudel, Schwarzer, Strobel)
Australian Cattle Dog
Australian Kelpie
Australian Shepherd
Australian Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog
Basque Shepherd Dog
Bearded Collie
Beauceron
Belgian Shepherd Dog (Groenendael, Laekenois, Tervueren, and Malinois)
Bergamasco Shepherd
Berger Picard
Berger Blanc Suisse
Black Mouth Cur
Blue Lacy
Border Collie
Bouvier des Flandres
Briard
Carea LeonÃ©s
Catahoula Leopard Dog
Catalan Sheepdog
Chien de Crau[3]
Collie breeds (see specific breed)
Corb Shepherd
Croatian Sheepdog
Cur (Blackmouth Cur, etc.)
Dutch Shepherd
English Shepherd
Farm Collie/Farm Shepherd
German Shepherd Dog
Hairy Mouth Heeler (Also known as Wire Mouth Heeler)[1][3][4]
Huntaway
Icelandic Sheepdog
King Shepherd
Kerry Blue Terrier
Koolie, German ------ or Australian Koolie
Lancashire Heeler
Lapponian Herder
Maremma Sheepdog
McNab
Miniature Australian Shepherd
Mudi
Norwegian Buhund
Old English Sheepdog
Picardy Shepherd
Polish Lowland Sheepdog
Portuguese Sheepdog
Puli
Pumi (dog)
Pyrenean Shepherd
Rafeiro do Alentejo (Portugal)
Reindeer Herder
Rottweiler
Rough Collie
Samoyed
Savoy Shepherd[3]
Sharr Mountain Dog
Schapendoes
Schipperke
Scotch Collie
Estrela Mountain Dog (Portugal)
Shetland Sheepdog
Smithfield[3]
Smooth Collie
Soft-Coated Wheaten Terrier
Spanish Water Dog
Swedish Vallhund
Tibetan Terrier
Welsh Corgis:
Cardigan Welsh Corgi
Pembroke Welsh Corgi
Welsh Sheepdog
White Swiss Shepherd


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## JPiantedosi (Apr 23, 2012)

Well...... I guess I should restate my question a little more clearly. I can go to the variouse breed registries and wikapedia and find out what herding dogs are out there....

I want to know what breeds folks here have had good (and bad) experiences with as WORKING herding dogs.

Jim


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

I have trained a few kelpies and like them. They have a nice natural gather for large field work, but also do well in close quarters. They are similar to border collies in their working abilities. I have also worked with and trained some Australian Shepherds. Even though they do have a coat, some of the working lines don't have as much. I've seen some super nice working Aussies. They don't tend to have the scope for the longer outruns, but can do good in smaller fields and pen work. The show lines often are lacking in working ability and tend to have more coat. My personal favorite is the border collie, but if I couldn't find any, it would be a toss up between Australian Shepherds and Kelpies. I would recommend trying to get out and watch some breeds your are interested in at work before deciding. They do not all work the same. Sadly some herding breeds are mostly bred for pets nowadays so are lacking in abilities and interest. Stockdog trials are a great place to see a variety of dogs at work. AHBA
On that website there is also a list of judges and places to work dogs. If you can't get out to trials and watch some dogs, maybe you can visit a few farms where they utilize breeds you are interested in.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Have had Bouviers, but not as herding dogs. Good family dog, stable minded.


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## Immaculate Sublimity (Apr 30, 2003)

I LOVE my Berger Picards... but like with any herding breed I suggest people do research. 

6 or so pages of photo's and videos of mine. Gotham pictures by brina309 - Photobucket


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## Laura Workman (May 10, 2002)

I have English Shepherds. Mine are great all-around farm dogs and help with everything from herding to predator control. They can be trusted alone with the stock, too, which is an advantage.


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## CJ (May 10, 2002)

We used German Shepherds to herd our sheep with when we had the farm. When we sold it and spent the next 4 years in our RV, all four of them went with us. Let me just say... it was quite an adjustment period.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

When my pit bull died, I really wanted to get an English Shepherd. They are awesome all around farm dogs. I don't need a herding dog often because my animals are feed bucket trained so in the end we decided to get an Amstaff. Not for herding, just for a family dog. but man are English shepherds nice dogs!!!


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## bknthesdle (Mar 27, 2011)

We have a heeler...thought he would be good with cattle. He is....to a point....but I'd never get another heeler EVER again. We researched the breed, even knew a feel people with heelers, so they were not unknown to us. But our guy is intense. He also, just last weekend, when my husband let him run around killed our favorite kitten. (kitten was about 5-6 months old) The heeler needs a 24/7 job and we don't have that many cattle. I would like to rehome him, but he's my husband's dog and goes farming with him, but he'll never be allowed to run loose around the farm with the cows, horses, cat, and sheep that we have. I can't chance him killing anything else. 

I wanted a dog that would accompany me outside while doing my chores and keep me safe if I needed...and in a pinch help work cattle. I did not get what I wanted. I've been considering a sheltie (for company and moving the sheep if needed) if I could find one. I had a couple of shelties in my life and I always loved them.

Edited to add: We have a bit bull...but she went blind on us 2 years ago. (acute glaucoma?) Prior to going blind, she was great to have out with you in the cows. Can't say about the sheep, since we didn't get them until after she went blind. She's now a couch potato. 

Does anyone have corgis or any experience with them?


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

If you want to do *actual* herding, it's hard to find many breeds who are bred for instincts anymore. I do know there are some nice Kelpies out there who still work. McNabs, maybe?


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

A friend of mine has an adorable little cardigan corgi that will work cattle. Not sure how she would do on something not dog broke/docile though. She is regularly used on a small flock of sheep. I believe she has some pups right now, but don't have any idea if they are spoken for or not. If you're interested message me and I can give you her info. The dog's pup that she kept from another litter is also very keen to work. Some other corgis I've seen show no interest at all. You really want to make sure both parents are working. For cattle, some dogs, even sheepdogs won't look at cows. I would make sure the pup is out of working cattle lines. If you can't see the parents work, videos are the next best thing.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

SilverFlame819 said:


> If you want to do *actual* herding, it's hard to find many breeds who are bred for instincts anymore. I do know there are some nice Kelpies out there who still work. McNabs, maybe?


It's a shame really. Frustrating when you see a person with their pup that won't work or are scared of the stock after they've spent all that time raising it up for months and gotten all attached.


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## Immaculate Sublimity (Apr 30, 2003)

SilverFlame819 said:


> If you want to do *actual* herding, it's hard to find many breeds who are bred for instincts anymore. I do know there are some nice Kelpies out there who still work. McNabs, maybe?


All the more reason to get a rustic breed.


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## SilverFlame819 (Aug 24, 2010)

After searching for a BC breeder that has *exactly* what I want for years now, I've finally just realized that I'm going to have to breed my own once I get my place in the future... Frustrating, indeed!


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

SilverFlame819 said:


> After searching for a BC breeder that has *exactly* what I want for years now, I've finally just realized that I'm going to have to breed my own once I get my place in the future... Frustrating, indeed!


The border collie as a breed has been divided by show, agility, obedience, and herding people. Those bred for show, agility and obedience are generally AKC breeders with a spattering of those getting the token herding instinct tests or beginner titles to make them feel good about breeding. Then you have those who trial their dogs a little , but don't do real practical work. There are still plenty of folks out there who breed for good working ability, but it takes a little looking around. My favorite lines go back to some hill dogs who's offspring were imported from Scotland and England. I like the smooth coated dogs best, but working ability is priority. This is a video of my Bruce dog who goes back to International Supreme champion Moss, among other team dogs, brace champions, and qualifiers. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8ot018lTxg]Bruce work - YouTube[/ame] This next video is my dog Greta(grandpup of 2 time National Champion Star) gathering a group of sheep out of a field at about 270 yards. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wsDOZ-hk58[/ame]
I watch the performance of other dogs when I'm working at trials, so I know what I like, but it has to be hard for somebody who is just getting into a breed to find the right dog. If I decided to try a different breed, I would be asking people who are more familiar with the lines and have gone far in training with more than a couple dogs.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

If the dog is from a working group, it will train the people. Problem is, if the people haven't been trained, the dog will do what it wants. I have seen many dogs ruined by people that don't know better. I have gotten trained dogs and I have trained my own dogs. If you get a trained dog, you will do well learning from it. I like the small border collies and blue heelers. Both need lots of working time, they are hyper when young. I always train a dog to a muzzle so it has a soft mouth, nothing worse than a dog that feels it needs to bite. After trained they never need a muzzle. The first command is sit, a dog has to be quick to respond when called off to keep it from becoming agressive. I train my dogs to herd by never touching the animal, if allowed they become to oaggressive....James


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## spinandslide (Jun 6, 2008)

What about an English Shepherd? Ive heard afew folks speak of them..a forefather of sorts to the BC and aussie..

I personally like my BC's..


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## JPiantedosi (Apr 23, 2012)

thanks folks. 
I am more or less looking for another project. Ive got a kennel full of german shorthairs and a few pointers thrown in, but I think id like to have hearding dog to play with moving our sheep and cattle around.

Honestly Im not sure I have enough livestock to justify it.

Old pig farmer down the road had about 8 BC all named sally (male and female haha) and till the day I die Ill never forget the sight when he would point and say "get em sally". those dogs knew their job.

Jim


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## westend (Jul 11, 2012)

There are some good breeders out here in the west with stock dog lines of Aussies... Look a lot more like a kelpie/Aussie sort...often with a shorter coat. I have an Aussie and think they are easier (from the right lines) to keep I think, than collies (have had both). Search on stock dogs and I think it might put you on the right path. Aussies will get my vote.


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## Laura Workman (May 10, 2002)

SilverFlame819 said:


> If you want to do *actual* herding, it's hard to find many breeds who are bred for instincts anymore. I do know there are some nice Kelpies out there who still work. McNabs, maybe?


I don't do *actual* herding. I do farm chores. For instance, when I want my buck goat back in his pen after breeding, I tell my English Shepherd, "put him away." And he does. When I want the ducks in the pen for the night, I tell him, "put the ducks away." And he does. When I want my buck goat or my boar to back off the fence so I can get through the gate, I tell the buck or the boar, "get back." They're learning now, but if they're slow about it, my dogs hit the fence, and the animals do move back. If I want to catch a free-ranging chicken during the day, I tell one of my dogs, "would you bring that chicken?" If they go after the wrong one, I say, "No, THAT chicken." Once they figure out which bird I want, they either bring me the chicken, or get it to where it's in a corner, trapped, then wait for me to come get it. My male is always right near me, trying to figure out how he can be of help. When I'm at the computer, he is just outside the sliding glass door, on the back deck, making sure everything is OK. Our dogs have a dog door, and come and go as they please, even when we have sheep or chickens free in the yard. There's never any trouble. Strangers DO NOT come into the yard without being invited, but once they're invited, the dogs mooch for pets. They're both good with kids. Both of my English shepherds are indispensable helpers, and my male is the best dog I've ever had, bar none, and I've had dogs ever since I was a child, back in the '60s. If you want an all-around farm dog, you cannot go wrong with a good English Shepherd.


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

I think the best thing would be to head out to your nearest Herding Trial and talk to the owners and handlers there. You will get a chance to see different breeds competing and can find out about lines, gain connections, etc.

I grew up watching my aunt train her Belgian Sheepdogs to herd. It doesn't seem that long ago that she started with a fine confirmation champion that never amounted to anything in the herding arena, but a ***** from her first litter became the first dual champion for the breed (confirmation/herding) and my aunt now has several BSC hall of fame dogs, many high trials, herding champions etc. 

Herding trials are a great place to learn.

Best,
A


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

i don't reccomend curs for soft stock like sheep, goats & fowl. they are very hard dogs intended for cattle, hogs & horses. be extremely hard to find a mountain cur or mountain view w/herding instinct nowadays anyway, they have been nothing but hunting dogs for decades now.
lacy cur dogs might be the easiest to soften up for sheep & such. and they are around the same size as BCs w/a short coat.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Wendle, I wonder if our dogs are related. In his Scottish line are names like Moss, Jock, and Moss again. His sire was owned by Bruce Fogt, Spider Toby.

Corgies are driving dogs, they would push the stock from here to there, especially to market. They are not gathering dogs like collies. Not saying they wouldn't work for you. Collies are preferred to be soft for herding sheep. Some are hard, better for herding cattle. My border collie has been worth his weight in gold.

My border collie is short coated, which means he doesn't have a full long coat, but does have a full tail. People usually say "he looks like a border collie, but he isn't". Whatever breed you decide on, train him well in obedience before training him to stock.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

The Moss dog would be owned by Julie Simpson(Hill). Even if they aren't related, I know Bruce Fogt always has very nice dogs.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Must not be the same Moss. He has 23958 AIBC, G & J Dapogny; 47537, A. N. Allan; 67993 ISDS, Arthur Allen; 64756 ISDS, George L. Conboy; and 67993

Pretty common name.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Yes it is a common name. Arthur Allen and George Conboy were known to have some top notch dogs too.


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## cowbelle (Mar 5, 2009)

There are plenty of Border Collies, Kelpies, and Australian Shepherds bred for work - the people that have them tend not to want any of them to go to pet homes. I raised and trained Australian Kelpies for 20 yrs, until my knees go too bad to work young dogs. I also published the Stockdog Journal for 5 yrs, and now it is with another gal. I suggest subscribing to it to find true working lines of the dogs. Its out of Iowa now, phone 515 854-2060 and [email protected], done by Deb Meier. THe real working dogs are bred to have a lot of stamina, lots of energy, and lots of drive. Those characteristics keep them going on ranches when they are hot, tired or whatever. They don't quit the job at hand which may take more than all day. Those characteristics do not make a good pet. Though some are mellow enough to be farm dogs, they won't be trustworthy to be loose - they will go to work with or without you. They need to be with you at all times, or in a kennel. That makes for a mannerly dog as an adult. For relaxed farm dogs, try the Aussie, or the English Shepherd. They will need the same training as the more intense breeds, but will be more willing to "chill". In any case, there is a lot of training involved to have a great dog. There are many books available, but working with a trainer in person is far more valuable. With so many variables - type of stock, working pens, type of dog, age of pup, personality of pup - that an experienced trainer can avoid most of the first time stockdog owner mistakes. Working with a good dog is both fun and can make difficult stock handling easy - but it isn't for the faint hearted. Good luck!!


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

When I got my border collie puppy from Rebecca Harris, I told her what I wanted. I did not want a high drive dog. My Hamish has been perfect. Most people consider him high drive, but he's not compared to other bc's. His brother had little or no herding instinct and went to a pet home, the others to working homes. Be realistic about what you need from a dog. A dog that works all day every day with high instinct, or a dog that works sometimes.


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## stockdogtta (Apr 12, 2008)

I can vouch for Wendle having very god top notch stockdogs and is also a very good trainer. I have Aussies myself but if I ever 'crossed the line'...Wendle would be the one I get a BC pup from.


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## hastyreply (Nov 10, 2012)

I'll throw another breed into the mix. I have New Zealand Heading Dogs. They are similar to border collies. They have a lot of border collie blood and since they aren't a "finite" breed they outcross a lot to border collies or whatever ever they think is lacking in that line. The best way to describe them is smooth coated, black and white or black tri (though they come in other colors) bred only for working ablility. One of my dogs shows a lot of hound, probably greyhound, somewhere back there. My other dog is a NZ, BC cross. I like they way they work, very biddable, instant balance, they will stand up to a sheep but not try to kill them. Tireless but calm away from sheep. (much like border collies use to be). 

Here is a picture of my dogs. Gus on the left (he's watching sheep) and Scout.


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## bknthesdle (Mar 27, 2011)

For those that have English Shepards, are they barkers?


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## bergere (May 11, 2002)

Laura Jensen said:


> I don't do *actual* herding. I do farm chores. For instance, when I want my buck goat back in his pen after breeding, I tell my English Shepherd, "put him away." And he does. When I want the ducks in the pen for the night, I tell him, "put the ducks away." And he does. When I want my buck goat or my boar to back off the fence so I can get through the gate, I tell the buck or the boar, "get back." They're learning now, but if they're slow about it, my dogs hit the fence, and the animals do move back. If I want to catch a free-ranging chicken during the day, I tell one of my dogs, "would you bring that chicken?" If they go after the wrong one, I say, "No, THAT chicken." Once they figure out which bird I want, they either bring me the chicken, or get it to where it's in a corner, trapped, then wait for me to come get it. My male is always right near me, trying to figure out how he can be of help. When I'm at the computer, he is just outside the sliding glass door, on the back deck, making sure everything is OK. Our dogs have a dog door, and come and go as they please, even when we have sheep or chickens free in the yard. There's never any trouble. Strangers DO NOT come into the yard without being invited, but once they're invited, the dogs mooch for pets. They're both good with kids. Both of my English shepherds are indispensable helpers, and my male is the best dog I've ever had, bar none, and I've had dogs ever since I was a child, back in the '60s. If you want an all-around farm dog, you cannot go wrong with a good English Shepherd.


Now this is the kind of dog I have been looking for.


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## bknthesdle (Mar 27, 2011)

I met one yesterday. They are amazing dogs. My next dog will definitely be an English shepherd.


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## hastyreply (Nov 10, 2012)

Being successful with a herding dog has a lot to do with how good a dog handler/trainer you are and how good you are at reading stock. I have see obedience dogs who have absolutely no herding instinct, do an excellent job because they handler can put them where they need to be to control the stock. I have also seen incredibly talented dogs who their handlers couldn't do a thing with. 

Find a dog who's energy level you can read and match. Then get some good basic obedience on them. You HAVE to be able to stop the dog in their tracks and recall them when you want. Then it's about placing the dog where you want to keep the sheep from going. The sheep will get trained to the dog and vice versa even if the dog isn't very powerful (particularly if you have supported the dog in the early stages). If you get a puppy don't rush it. Some are over confident and can get in over their heads and get hurt and quit on you. Others can take a year or more to get really interested. Just remember few dogs "train themselves" and all pups in a litter are not going to be just like their parents. Pick a pup that you like and seems to like you instead of trying to pick the best herding dog. If you wait until they are 3-4 months old the breeder can give you an idea what kind of working dog they maybe.


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