# elks rant about flour



## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

well here goes...i dont know what they are doing to flour from store but its like its dead. i use to make bread and the best pizza crust ever..co workers loved it.i got out of making it and for last several years on and off i been trying again with awful results. i tried so many brands of flour etc and nothing was different...i didnt press the point as i really dont need the calories from it...but dang it...i wanted to make it again and wasnt satisfied with failure.

i went to my local mill and picked up some of flour and let me tell you what...i am back at it again......it flat out was the store bought flour...i even used yeast that went out of date in 09 and it grew me a loaf....i will be practicing a bit more....but i am satisfied i am back on top of this situation.

i let one batch grow and got it out and as i held it it starte stretching over my hand like slime and it felt alive.....eureka said i !!!!!!......truth is as soon as i added my water to flour i could tell it was "alive" just mixing it with my spoon.none of that store bought stuff done that for me....and i mean i bought all kinds..martha white, white lily,store brand etc etc etc....i could not get none of it to work.

my question is this....do you think they are radiating/irradiating flour and if they are would it make it not be alive like flour that i know came straight off the grinding wheel into my bag?


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

I think they maybe are substituting poorer quality wheats. If you ( the four millers), start using soft wheats and expect it to make good strong well rising bread, chances are low in getting that result. Nothing like Hard red spring wheats for making a good bread. I dunno about irradiating...


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

dale i even bought a bag of regular bread flour....its pure garbage.it wont rise 1mm.

i could be wrong but i think i even bought a bag of king arthur and it was junk.i tried different yeasts from packets to jars...all failures....it was blowing my mind cause i proofed the yeast before adding it (yeast proofed good)and nothing happened....i thought i was jinked....lol

i mixed a batch of flour without yeast for tortillas and i swear this stuff i could tell it was rising and growing and it felt alive....like it use to when i lived in PNW and done most of my bread baking.i even was wondering if it was altitude here and location...lol...it was bugging me....lol


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

i even seen a 80plus year old woman talking about how the flour today is not the flour she used in the past and how it was/is acting differently.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

dale i hope to grow a bit of wheat one day....i wanna try some of the wheats grown in Israel that go way back just to play around with it as i actually own a decent sized grist mill that i need to get up and running with a power source one day....dreams ya know.


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

Well in today's age, who knows what is happening, hey? I have a friend who grows einkorn wheat, an ancient wheat from the middle east. I have this little glass jar on my shelf of a wheat my dad had grown in the 1950's. I want to try and grow it and see how it responds to todays agronomy. Maybe bake some and compare. I always plan on it, but I never get it done. Maybe this year???


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## freegal (Mar 4, 2005)

I've noticed that too. And it's so dry that I have to add extra egg, oil or liquid to get something edible.


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## snowcap (Jul 1, 2011)

I've noticed it even when making noodles. It doesn't seem to absorb the eggs as well. Even after aging in the fridge.


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

I think it's partly the varieties grown, but also the best ground lately has been going to corn or milo for ethanol. Millers will use what keeps costs down. Quality just doesn't count in breeding programs as much as yield does. Like so many other foods, it may soon come down to processing your own or accepting junk at inflated prices. JMHO.


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## belladulcinea (Jun 21, 2006)

I splurged and bought King Arthur's flour, so far it's been great. I wonder if it's old stuff that is in the stores.


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## sustainabilly (Jun 20, 2012)

Yes! I've been thinking I was jinxed too, elk. For me it's been just lately that this is happening... In the past year. I tried a lot of the same things you did. Nothing! Aarrgh! I've been about to pull my hair out. And, let me tell ya, I really can't afford that, LOL. Thanks for posting this! I'm going to look for a local source also.


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Elk, Hard Red Spring Wheat is primarily used for bread flour. Hard whites are the darling of the artisan bread bakers. The softs are used for all purpose, cake, and pastry flours. The softs are mostly grown down South--the reason why White Lily flour is ideal for biscuits. 

If you're getting a flour that is green/freshly milled, you won't ever get good bread from it. It needs time and "stirring" to oxidize. Usually ascorbic acid, iodate of potassium or iodate of calcium are added to speed this process up and improve the gluten quality of the flour.

The manner in which the flour is milled and bleaching will also contribute to your rise. Room temp and humidity will affect you in the kitchen.


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## jessimeredith (Sep 12, 2004)

If you can't find a local source try to find pastry flour...it's harder to find because of the expense but I swear the fine grind of it makes it a better flour overall than the usual brands. I was getting mine at a bulk store in MO but haven't found a source (locally) for it here.


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Jessi pastry flour doesn't rise for bread making. It's use is for softer doughs where you don't want gluten and require tenderness.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

all i know is store bought flour has not worked for me....local milled flour has put me back in baking world.


like i said when i add water...its alive in the mixing bowl right off.....all that other flour is dead.....and i aint talking about a few bags of flour i have tried lots.

it stretchy and squishy and bounces back from a finger poke like my fat belly....lol


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## Ziptie (May 16, 2013)

They are also adding cornstarch to the flour. If forget why they said they were doing it has been several years since I have talked to different companyâs about it. King Arthur was the last flour we were able to use, but even started having problems with that (it was a good flour) so now we just grind our own. Though I sometimes really miss a loaf of pure white fluffy bread.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

look at these tortillas....they are great not thin as paper stuff....i used a press on these too.but they came out nice and thick and hearty.you actually feel like you ate something instead of a sheet of paper...roflmao...oh the extra calories i dont need...lol


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

i did buy a bag of the lime washed corn flour....i like it...heres my first attempt using it.


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

Elk, are you saying that last batch of corn tortillas was masa harina? What exactly did you buy? 

You're makin me hungry..


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

use one of them with elks mexican hash and you got something to keep ya going....lol...or bring ya down if ya sit on the couch to much.

elks mexican hash.....canned smoked pork i done mixed with fried cubed taters and onions with fresh cilantro tossed in last 30 seconds of cook time.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

partndn said:


> Elk, are you saying that last batch of corn tortillas was masa harina? What exactly did you buy?
> 
> You're makin me hungry..


just a bag of masa from walmart off the mexican isle.i mixed it up following bag directions...it felt like play dough to me...lol.....i may cut these like wedges so i can try them in deep frier for chips with salsa...i will take pics if i do.


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## Vosey (Dec 8, 2012)

I buy King Arthur Flour for pizza dough and mix in 1 tbls gluten per cup, makes a beautiful, stretchy dough with just the right texture. But I have to be really careful at the store, those expiration dates are often long gone. Of course, this is the store I got 50# of rice free as it had expired 2 years ago! My point being that so few people buy bags of flour and rice anymore. 

Love the pics Elkhound!


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

i am tired of stores selling junk......i buy very little from stores now...but dang it...i expect it to work and be edible.....i mean i aint no martha stewart but i think i do pretty good for a barbarian.

i have purged myself of so many additives in the food chain i to the point one i get one bite of some chemical i almost spit it out within a few chews....lol.....i truly am a food snob now.

if i eat something junkie like use to i feel like a ran over rat in the middle of an interstate......lol


heres another rant...ice cream.....since when is it suppose to be soft as pudding? real ice cream is as hard as concrete.growing up we made it and you had to let it sit out before you could spoon out a bowl.me and tambo made a batch here of vanilla once and you could bounce rocks off it.....lol....if it dont bend a spoon diggin in it.......it aint ice cream !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i mighta had caffine today....roflmao......yall bear with me...ok?


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

Vosey said:


> I buy King Arthur Flour for pizza dough and mix in 1 tbls gluten per cup, makes a beautiful, stretchy dough with just the right texture. But I have to be really careful at the store, those expiration dates are often long gone. Of course, this is the store I got 50# of rice free as it had expired 2 years ago! My point being that so few people buy bags of flour and rice anymore.
> 
> Love the pics Elkhound!



i even bought a bag of gluton at my amish store i get a few things from to add and it didnt help a thing......

this local milled flour...i add a shot of yeast and it got all nice and poofy..picked it up and it stretched like slime over ya hand...i swear i think it coulda went to the floor with out breaking...and it was just a cup of flour too.....i wanted to yell for joy and do cartwheels.....:clap:


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

while we are at it......let me show ya something......elks mexican tortillas.....look closely at the spots in these....its green flakes......my homegrow...home ground jalapeno powder....i added a tbsp full to flour before mixing..


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## jessimeredith (Sep 12, 2004)

Tommyice said:


> Jessi pastry flour doesn't rise for bread making. It's use is for softer doughs where you don't want gluten and require tenderness.


I beg to differ since that's what I use. 

Never had a single problem with it at all not rising and it actually gives me the texture in bread that I fell in love with in Germany.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

the local mill says what they use is soft red winter wheat


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Elk, are you using unbleached or bleached flour? Also, I'd like to hear more about the added cornmeal and dough conditioners. I remember DW commenting a couple years ago how she thought the yeast we were using might be less potent. I'm now wondering if it was something in the flour instead. (She still makes a killer loaf of bread.)


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

harry its bleached.....i may ask them to grind me some whole wheat just to try and see how it goes.if i set up my grist i can just grind my own in future.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

I just scooted over to the King Arthur site. Their unbleached flour contains some barley flour, I suspect to act as food for the yeast. (Barley maltose beer etc. beermakers know the drill) This is getting interesting and I'm learning some stuff I never considered. Appreciate your bringing the subject up.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

one thing i like about my grist mill is it will grind wet and or oily stuff. so that means i could soak my own corn in lime water and grind it wet like they do after dehulling and washing.

its suppose to even hull sunflowers.i have both course plates and extra fine for it.i need about 5hp to run it....i think...lol


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

heres the mill i have.its more mill than i need but i traded for it and got a deal on it that way....its a c.s. bell no.60


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Looks similar to one I used when I worked in a health food store. Word of warning - do NOT attempt to grind oatmeal flakes into oatmeal flour if you are out of oat groats. I would never do that... nope, never... :ashamed::facepalm:


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

For 2 loaves of bread I use 4 cups of white flour, 4 cups of freshly ground white hard wheat flour and 3 Tbsp. of gluten. I do not have a problem with the bread rising. In fact, the last 2 loaves rose too far above the pans. I make pizza dough with white flour and I haven't had a problem with rising.


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

jessimeredith said:


> I beg to differ since that's what I use.
> 
> Never had a single problem with it at all not rising and it actually gives me the texture in bread that I fell in love with in Germany.


Certainly use what you're used to and works for you Jessie  We all have to do what works for us. Chef Michele would have a baby if they ever saw my method for making ganache--it's totally antithesis to the way you're supposed to make it and I was taught, but it turns out the way it's should and has a texture you wouldn't think is possible to obtain with my method. 

I was just relaying my experiences from culinary school and work in patisseries and bakeries. There is a certain "science" to baking that doesn't exist in savory cooking. In baking, it's all about the ratios. The type of yeast (rapid rise, dry, caked--last one is purchased in solid cakes, almost like playdough in texture in a refrigerated case), the amount of yeast and how it's fed to start.

Would you share your recipe? Pretty please


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## jessimeredith (Sep 12, 2004)

Leslie,

I use it for everything (biscuits, tortillas, na'an, etc) just as you would any flour...who knows why it works, but for me it does.

Here's a link to the recipe I use however it IS in German, below is the loose translation:

http://baeckersuepke.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/ddr-brotchen-rezept/

Loose translation:

500 g unbleached bread flour
325 g water
10 g salt
1 tsp instant yeast
5 g sugar or diastatic malt
10 g butter


let it ferment at room temperature (about 2 hours with one fold). Divide it into 10 - 12 pieces, shape round or like little batards. Proof for 30 minutes, score and bake with steam for 20 minutes at 450Â°F.

There is also this one (also in German): http://www.hobby-garten-blog.de/rezept/7132-broetchen-backen.php

And a German friend pointed me to this blog...soooooo many to try (again, in German): http://www.ploetzblog.de/alle-rezepte/

It's pert near impossible to get the right crumb without pastry flour, I've tried them all. The European flours have dozens of grinds and ash contents, American flours not so much. American pastry flour is the closest that there is to the typical "bread" flour grind in Europe. There's a whole letter about it from King Arthur on the Fresh Loaf site. ( http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6037/europeanking-arthur-flour-equivalents )


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## jessimeredith (Sep 12, 2004)

whoops....double post. Sorry!


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Elk ,have you tried sifting the flour a couple of times. Maybe newer flour is ground so fine that it needs to have air around each little particle for the yeast to work. I also proof but only use honey. I never add salt or oil until the proofing is done. My favorite bread is made with milk.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

7thswan...i sifted the store bought flour....i have 3 different sifters too....lol....nothing i done made a bit of difference.


i tell ya it was driving me bat poop crazy......lol.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Going off track here. I've made pizza twice in the past two weeks. DH loves it, says it tastes 'fresh'. I plan to make more. But, I'm not happy with the crust. I know not to use bread flour because of the higher gluten, but I thought the crust was heavy. Maybe a good sandwich bread, but not for pizza. What flour should I use?


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Maura said:


> Going off track here. I've made pizza twice in the past two weeks. DH loves it, says it tastes 'fresh'. I plan to make more. But, I'm not happy with the crust. I know not to use bread flour because of the higher gluten, but I thought the crust was heavy. Maybe a good sandwich bread, but not for pizza. What flour should I use?


I have read to let the dough sit overnight, it kinda ferments which gives it that certain taste that pizza dough has. I haven't tried it yet,(because I never know if Dh will eat when he gets home from overtime and always cook last min.) but I have some in the refer right now-3 days fermenting. I will make it today-breadsticks and let you know. I've also read to use part Semolina Flour.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

I just have to jump in here and give my opinion of why the flour is not acting like it used to. 

Long ago I learned that the fertilizer they use commercially is not fertilizer at all. It adds NOTHING back to the soil. What it does is leach minerals from deeper and deeper, bringing them to the surface. 

The result of all these years of using those chemical "fertilizers" is that the soil is more dead than alive. They have leached everything out of it and put nothing back. 

Therefore... the grains and other foods grown in the dead soil no longer contain the minerals that were once a part of them. They are now growing "dead" food instead of the live foods we once had. 

This is why it's so important to me to never use chemicals on my land. I feed the soil with compost and do not leach the minerals to leave dead soil.


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

I bake bread weekly with store bought flour and I have no problem getting it to rise. I'd guess the difference has more to do with the water you are using. I have moved much in my life (been to over 50 countries) and noticed many differences in dough due to altitude, humidity, and water. Not sure what it is but the best pizza dough in the world (not just according to me)is made from new York city tap water. There's this awesome pizzeria in savannah GA (vinnie van goh gos) that even imports tap water from new York!


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Well, the 3 day old pizza dough was very nice, Dh liked the flavor, it still didn't taste like store bought pizza dough. Oh well.


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

gweny said:


> I bake bread weekly with store bought flour and I have no problem getting it to rise. I'd guess the difference has more to do with the water you are using. I have moved much in my life (been to over 50 countries) and noticed many differences in dough due to altitude, humidity, and water. Not sure what it is but the best pizza dough in the world (not just according to me)is made from new York city tap water. There's this awesome pizzeria in savannah GA (vinnie van goh gos) that even imports tap water from new York!


Brooklyn has the best bread bakeries and pizzerias I've ever encountered (except for France and Italy respectively LOL). Humidity and the yeasts that occur naturally in our air are the biggest part of "rise." Think San Francisco sourdough.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

I have the same model of grain mill :goodjob:

When I lived on the Mexican border I got to do a lot of from scratch cooking with my Amiga. We made tortillas and tamales a lot. There is no comparison between fresh masa(corn soaked in lime water) and the store bought stuff. We ground the soaked corn in a hand crank cheap grinder. After thorough rinsing we just drained it well and ground it while it still had a lot of moisture in it....add a bit of salt. Tamales...drool!

I'm wondering if the problem with flour is the same reason that store bought bread no longer gets hard or molds. While traveling this summer a loaf of store bought raisin bread got shuffled to the back and forgotten for over a month. When I discovered it I thought it was trash, but upon further inspection it looked as 'good' as the day I bought it. If I didn't know how old it was I'd have sworn it just came from the store. That's just not natural! When I got back home from traveling for several months it turned out there was a partial loaf of bread on top of the refrigerator. It was the same way. Still soft and no mold. Scary stuff!


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

I've noticed that "no mold" trait on baked goods as well. I agree, it is scary when mold doesn't want to eat it. Flour tortillas last as long as fast food french fries, some store bought french bread I bought sat around for weeks with no mold. I was happy to see that Lender's bagels are still (kosher) mold friendly.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

i heard a interview on radio with the author of "pandoras lunch box" and i about fainted at the things she uncovered in our food chain and what she was told and found out about our food police.....its on my to read list.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

TxMex said:


> I have the same model of grain mill :goodjob:
> 
> When I lived on the Mexican border I got to do a lot of from scratch cooking with my Amiga. We made tortillas and tamales a lot. There is no comparison between fresh masa(corn soaked in lime water) and the store bought stuff. We ground the soaked corn in a hand crank cheap grinder. After thorough rinsing we just drained it well and ground it while it still had a lot of moisture in it....add a bit of salt. Tamales...drool!
> 
> I'm wondering if the problem with flour is the same reason that store bought bread no longer gets hard or molds. While traveling this summer a loaf of store bought raisin bread got shuffled to the back and forgotten for over a month. When I discovered it I thought it was trash, but upon further inspection it looked as 'good' as the day I bought it. If I didn't know how old it was I'd have sworn it just came from the store. That's just not natural! When I got back home from traveling for several months it turned out there was a partial loaf of bread on top of the refrigerator. It was the same way. Still soft and no mold. Scary stuff!


Wait, take a McDees cheeseburger in wrapper, put it on top of the refer-come a year from now-it will look the same.


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

7thswan said:


> Wait, take a McDees cheeseburger in wrapper, put it on top of the refer-come a year from now-it will look the same.


I'd be embarrassed to be caught buying a McD cheeseburger! However, I don't doubt you a bit as to the condition after a year.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

elkhound said:


> i heard a interview on radio with the author of "pandoras lunch box" and i about fainted at the things she uncovered in our food chain and what she was told and found out about our food police.....its on my to read list.


Ordered a copy yesterday. Just the "look inside" teaser on Amazon was enough to make me want to read more.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

elkhound said:


> i heard a interview on radio with the author of "pandoras lunch box" and i about fainted at the things she uncovered in our food chain and what she was told and found out about our food police.....its on my to read list.


Just finished the book. Much is as I suspected, but it was a good read. One of the big take-aways for me was that the G.R.A.S. (generally recognized as safe) list of foods and food additives is effectively worthless. If a chemical has been safe, and another chemical is similar to it, it can get on the list. "Review" of a food additive is done within the industry, -NOT the government - supposedly by panels that might or might not do testing, but the panels can consist of a SINGLE person.

A good portion of the book dealt with the modification of starches and the re-modifications of oils. Oh yeah, and that just about all vitamins are now made in China.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

I only use robin hood unbleached flour for my bread. I heard about dough enhancer but can't find it at our superstores. it's on Amazon though so I think I will order some and see if it makes a significant difference. I do have good bread though. ~Georgia.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

Harry Chickpea said:


> Just finished the book. Much is as I suspected, but it was a good read. One of the big take-aways for me was that the G.R.A.S. (generally recognized as safe) list of foods and food additives is effectively worthless. If a chemical has been safe, and another chemical is similar to it, it can get on the list. "Review" of a food additive is done within the industry, -NOT the government - supposedly by panels that might or might not do testing, but the panels can consist of a SINGLE person.
> 
> A good portion of the book dealt with the modification of starches and the re-modifications of oils. Oh yeah, and that just about all vitamins are now made in China.



thanks for the report.....it was very interesting listening to her talk on radio about her findings.


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## Conhntr (Aug 7, 2010)

Elk solved his problem; but another thing to consider is water. I bake alot and when i moved to my previous house i was having horrible results. It took me like 3 ruined attempts to realize the city water would not work! Even if you are on a well try some bottle water if you are having problems.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Conhntr said:


> Elk solved his problem; but another thing to consider is water. I bake alot and when i moved to my previous house i was having horrible results. It took me like 3 ruined attempts to realize the city water would not work! Even if you are on a well try some bottle water if you are having problems.


eww, never thought of that, chlorine water killed the yeast?


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## Conhntr (Aug 7, 2010)

7thswan said:


> eww, never thought of that, chlorine water killed the yeast?


Who know chlorine flouride whatever! It would rise but i couldnt get it "fluffy" everythig was stringy and chunky like a bread machine makes gross!


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## Becka03 (Mar 29, 2009)

Okay- dumb question - but this got me thinking- I would love to try some milled flour locally- but have no idea what to buy?
Spelt?
Coarse Whole Wheat??
HIgh Yeild cake flour?

I usually make bread, rolls and pizza dough....

the closest place is probably 30 miles the furthest at least an hour and a half- 

I am at a loss- geeish- I never thought about this before - I just bought flour- ughhhh *face palm* I am a failure at prepping!


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## Becka03 (Mar 29, 2009)

These are the places I found in Pa
Flour Mill in Pa

http://castlevalleymill.com/

http://smallvalleymilling.com/


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## Becka03 (Mar 29, 2009)

Did I kill the thread? LOL


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

Becka03 said:


> Did I kill the thread? LOL


show stopper......lol


i cant answer ya question about the types of flour other than get a few small bags of different things and give it a try and see what you and family like best.

i been making flour tortillas and they are so awesome...i even diplicated a pizza hut pan pizza the other day....lol...i think i gained 57 pounds in a week...:viking:


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

my 2nd try was good too but i made crust thinner....pepperoni and smoked chicken....lol....cooked in my great grannys skillet.


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## Becka03 (Mar 29, 2009)

OMGosh- those look amazing


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## sdnapier (Aug 13, 2010)

elkhound said:


> all i know is store bought flour has not worked for me....local milled flour has put me back in baking world.
> 
> 
> like i said when i add water...its alive in the mixing bowl right off.....all that other flour is dead.....and i aint talking about a few bags of flour i have tried lots.
> ...


Hi Elk...where in VA are you getting this flour? I am over in Newport News and get around the state from time to time and would be interested in buying some. Does this place have a storefront or do you call ahead with your order? Also, is there a minimum amount? Thanks, Sheryl


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