# Anyone here use solar panels to produce enouch power for the entire house?



## a7736100

Do you end up paying nothing to the power company, or are you just off grid?


----------



## ET1 SS

I have 4400 watts of solar panels, and a 48vdc 600ah battery bank.

I have the ability to switch breakers to go onto grid power, or to island [which is effectively off-grid].

The power grid here normally goes down a few days every month, we are on the extreme East Coast after all [with half-hour of the ocean].

If my wife wants to do something that we don't have enough amperage to do, then we go back to grid power, if the grid is up that day.

Most days, during sunlight we can charge-up the battery bank, recharge the plugin hybrid car and pretty much operate every appliance in our house [electric coffee pot, dishwasher, washing machine, clothes dryer, etc.] 

But when the sun goes down, that all must stop. We have some LED lights over each of our desks, and we both use laptop computers. That is the only power we consume at night.

When my wife was working, she insisted that when she got home from work. She wanted to sit and veg for an hour, then she wanted a hot shower before she went to bed. But, the reality was that by the time she was finally ready for her shower, the sun was down, so we never had enough power to run the well pump.


----------



## Vjk

We have 5.25 KW solar with battery backup. We are grid connected and don't worry too much about our power use unless the grid power goes out. Then we have to adjust things a bit. During the derecho we had to change up a lot, but it was me, the wife and 4 pregnant acquaintances. Talk about hormone hell. Luckily, the nights cooled off a lot so we had the AC running during the day and just fans at night. Still, the batteries were under 25% in the morning and took until late afternoon to fully recharge.


----------



## doc-

It seems that those who get by on solar have to conserve so much to do it...If they just conserved that much on grid power, their costs would be next to nothing anyway...

Grid power probably costs you ~$100/m...Your iPhone and cable or satellite TV each cost you more than that.

The only good reason to go solar is to ensure power security when the grid goes down.


----------



## boatswain2PA

Yep. I looked into it hard for our new construction build. Would cost north of $30k to power our Homestead as grid-tied, and close to $60k to be off grid (with $30k replacement batteries every ten years of so), all to save a $500/month electric bill (hoping it's not that high!).

But invest that $60k at 10%/year and I can make about $500/month, and I still have my $60k principle.


----------



## Forcast

You can save 60k!
Just use oil lamps,wood stove, can your food and tote water.


----------



## wdcutrsdaughter

**


----------



## ET1 SS

Forcast said:


> You can save 60k!
> Just use oil lamps,wood stove, can your food and tote water.


I am not sure how canning food affects power consumption.

If you consume energy you will pay for it. Whether that energy is gasoline, propane, or diesel it all costs money.

Nearly every home in our town has generators. Most homes run two generators. One time a neighbor was griping to me about how much fuel his generator eats. he goes through $150 a month on generator fuel. He is a FFL gunsmith, his insurance company insists that his shop must have power 24/7. So he had a nice propane generator installed. and of course whenever the power grid is up, he is on grid. But when the power grid goes down every few weeks, then his generator kicks on automatically. Thus the $150 a month average fuel bill.


----------



## Vjk

doc- said:


> It seems that those who get by on solar have to conserve so much to do it...If they just conserved that much on grid power, their costs would be next to nothing anyway...
> 
> Grid power probably costs you ~$100/m...Your iPhone and cable or satellite TV each cost you more than that.
> 
> The only good reason to go solar is to ensure power security when the grid goes down.


It's not so much about conserving as timing. Showers, laundry, baking etc. in early afternoon at peak sun rather than after sunset. Our power goes out periodically so it is good to have. The derecho knocked out local power for over 2 weeks. Daytime temps were around 107-110 and 90+ humidity. We have a young friend that earns a few extra $$ helping me around the farm and his wife was pregnant, so she stayed with us. Then she had 3 friends from her Lamaze classes that were stuck without AC as well so they stayed with us. 
Plus, there is the SHTF thing.


----------



## Vjk

boatswain2PA said:


> Yep. I looked into it hard for our new construction build. Would cost north of $30k to power our Homestead as grid-tied, and close to $60k to be off grid (with $30k replacement batteries every ten years of so), all to save a $500/month electric bill (hoping it's not that high!).
> 
> But invest that $60k at 10%/year and I can make about $500/month, and I still have my $60k principle.


You must have got quotes from Commucrats. Our whole system cost a little north of $20K. Since then prices have come down. I estimate we save on average about $150 per month. Again, we don't go way out of our way to conserve. We also get a green energy production credit of a few hundred dollars a year. I figure at this point we've recouped the investment, but that was only part of the equation.


----------



## Lisa in WA

Yes, we used to. We were off grid.


----------



## MichaelK!

Off-grid. Have 5500W for the cabin system and 2000W for the workshop system. The cabin system powers everything 24/7, including the refrigerator, TV/computer, all household appliances, and selective use of air-conditioning.

Sure, solar can power just about anything, but with proper design. No, it ain't gonna work with a single 100W panel and an AutoZone battery. So, with a 12K investment, you can have free electricity.


----------



## boatswain2PA

Vjk said:


> You must have got quotes from Commucrats. Our whole system cost a little north of $20K. Since then prices have come down. I estimate we save on average about $150 per month. Again, we don't go way out of our way to conserve. We also get a green energy production credit of a few hundred dollars a year. I figure at this point we've recouped the investment, but that was only part of the equation.


I likely am in the market for a larger system than you. I talked to four different companies, all gave relatively similar prices.

But funny thing is....the math is still the same. If you invested that $20,000 and got 10% interest you would make $2000 a year.

Instead you save $150/month, which is $1800/year....and you don't have the $20,000 principle.


----------



## ET1 SS

boatswain2PA said:


> I likely am in the market for a larger system than you. I talked to four different companies, all gave relatively similar prices.
> 
> But funny thing is....the math is still the same. If you invested that $20,000 and got 10% interest you would make $2000 a year.
> 
> Instead you save $150/month, which is $1800/year....and you don't have the $20,000 principle.


Off-grid on solar power is not about saving money, nor is it about trying to invest money for the highest return.

I have access to grid power, but without solar I would need to use generators. My math is done comparing the cost of generator fuel as compared to solar power.


----------



## Wellbuilt

That is a Interesting outlook on things . 
I think you could make allmost all your power grid tied except a few months out of the year .
But the cost to buy the solar with a 20 year pay back it seams like you break even . 
The only wild card is you rate won’t go up , so I think power goes up 4% a year and in 10 years you could save some money .
I’m off grid and if dident snow , I make enough power to run a 2800 sf cabin . 
I’m sitting in my chair with the tv on typing on my iPad I have regular house load frig /freezers i don’t really use much power Over nite And most days the solar charges the battery
by noon so really day time has unlimited usage .
I have 4500 watts of solar and will add 4500 watts soon I have all the equipment now .
I gett 200 watts of power for about 6/7 hours on the worst day possible .
When I double up on panels that gives me 400watts of power. So 2800 watts for the day .
If the sky gets a Little bright , my power doubles and I can bring in 6k watts so this could bring me to 100% . 
9 months out of the year I don’t have to look at the system .
Snow is a diffrent story , some years we get a lot some years we get a little.
I just run the Honda in the morning to make up the difference .


----------



## boatswain2PA

ET1 SS said:


> Off-grid on solar power is not about saving money, nor is it about trying to invest money for the highest return.
> 
> I have access to grid power, but without solar I would need to use generators. My math is done comparing the cost of generator fuel as compared to solar power.


It is an entirely different equation for those who have to be off-grid. One might build in an area where it would cost ANOTHER $20K or more just to get the grid to you, or the grid might be so sporadic that you need ability to produce for long periods. And then there is the SHTF scenario.

I look at all of this and solar is still just not worth it for our build. We will lose power frequently for an hour or so, sometimes a couple of hours, so will have a large propane generator to power the house through those frequent interruptions. Will have two large tanks that would be able to get us through several of months of reduced usage for SHTF scenario.


----------



## muleskinner2

a7736100 said:


> Do you end up paying nothing to the power company, or are you just off grid?


I have a regular power hook up, but I have many neighbors who are off grid. The guy who drilled my well is off grid at his place. The nearest power line to his property is a half a mile away. They wanted $25,000.00 to run power to his place. There is a reason he bought the land so cheap.

He built his solar system from used stuff he bought on Craig's List, and deep cycle marine grade batteries from Tractor Supply.


----------



## ET1 SS

Wellbuilt said:


> ... you could make allmost all your power grid tied except a few months out of the year.


What months?

I live in Maine. People in forums seem to want to project the idea that Maine does not get any sunlight through the winter. That is not true.

The number of sunlight hours per day are reduced, but we usually get good sunlight every day.





> ... But the cost to buy the solar with a 20 year pay back it seams like you break even


'pay back' and 'break even' are fantasy ideas.

I am a farmer. Nearly every item I spend money on is some kind of business expense, most everything goes on a schedule C, E, or F. I can not swing a dead cat without hitting a tax write-off.

Solar power equipment depreciates over 7 years, that is IRS law. Over a 7 year period, every penny spent on solar power gets depreciated.

If you depreciate all the expenses 100% over 7 years, there is no way you can do the math to say the 'break even' is 20 years. It has to be something less than 7 years.





> ... The only wild card is you rate won’t go up , so I think power goes up 4% a year and in 10 years you could save some money .


It only makes sense to look at 'Power rates' if you can assume that grid power is available 24/7.

Here in Maine it is not available 24/7. I have lived here since 2005. So far we have witnessed zero months without a power outage. Normal life here on the East Coast included the idea that the power grid is not reliable, it will go dark every month, of every year. that is what the power grid does.





> ... I’m off grid and if dident snow , I make enough power to run a 2800 sf cabin. I’m sitting in my chair with the tv on typing on my iPad I have regular house load frig /freezers i don’t really use much power Over nite And most days the solar charges the battery by noon so really day time has unlimited usage .


That is pretty much what I have here. 



> ... I just run the Honda in the morning to make up the difference .


Among my neighbors it is very common to see two generators.

A big unit that can power everything, but that consumes a gallon an hour. And a small unit that sips fuel.

Once a day they fire up the big unit, and then they start laundry, take showers, flush toilets, and run the chest freezers.

After one hour of all that, they shut down the big unit and start up the small unit. On the small unit they can run LED lights and laptops.

At the end of the month, this way they will have consumed the least amount of petroleum.


----------



## boatswain2PA

ET1 SS said:


> Solar power equipment depreciates over 7 years, that is IRS law. Over a 7 year period, every penny spent on solar power gets depreciated.
> 
> If you depreciate all the expenses 100% over 7 years, there is no way you can do the math to say the 'break even' is 20 years. It has to be something less than 7 years.


I think there are a couple flaws in your thinking.

1. Just because the IRS writes a regulation saying an item depreciates in 7 years doesn't mean that item is worth zero in 7 years. It's just a bureaucrat writing rules blindly.

2. Even depreciating the entire $20k system over 7 years doesn't mean you've gotten a return on your money in 7 years. Depreciating $3grand a year saves you about $1k/year in taxes (at 33% top rate), so you only save (make back) $7K of that $20k. Certainly helps, but doesn't move the needle to a 7 year recapture.

3. Not all of us can legally write everything off like you can.


----------



## Wellbuilt

I get very little sun this time of year. 
It snows over nite every nite and it takes till 1100/1200 to melt off if it’s below 20o the snow dosent melt I can sweep the panels early but some times the snow is iced up .

I’m not a farmer so I dont get to write this off ☹
The solar guys will write a 20 year note so you still pay about the same , you are paying for the Panels not the electricity.
The cost is about the same . 
My system is about the same as yours but I have 430AH la battery’s . 
My out back 3600/48v inverter powers every thing I need I use a 2800watt Honda generator
I have not done any Landry yet but I can power the house pump water and charge my battery’s . 
I have a larger generator but don’t use it much my system will power every thing .


----------



## ET1 SS

My photovoltaic panels are hung from a framework support that is hinged at the top. In the Spring there is an optimum angle to meet the suns rays, In the Summer there is another angle that is best and in the Winter there is a third angle that is best. the winter angle is very steep, nearly vertical. Because they are so close to vertical it helps to keep ice from sticking to them.

One year I hurt my back when I needed to adjust the angle. So I just left them at their summer angle, which is very nearly horizontal. The snow and ice piled up so high that it did not melt off until Spring. I learned that if there is any doubt at all, I must return my panels to nearly vertical before winter hits.


----------



## Wellbuilt

My roof is pitched for fall and spring 42o 
in the summer I can get 3750 watts out of 4500 watts of solar 
winter months i max out at about half , so 1900 watts or so .
I may just set up a ground mount that is adjustable year round .
The roof is pointing north and my solar panels are on the back .


----------



## altair

We pay a monthly metering fee (about $20), but we don't need to. It's to keep our connection active.


----------



## doc-

Vjk said:


> Then she had 3 friends from her Lamaze classes that were stuck without AC as well so they stayed with us.


Not to change the subject, but-- If Lamaze is supposed by "Natural" child-birth, why do they have to take lessons?


----------



## Steve_S

100% Offgrid Solar Powered with a 30kWh LFP Battery Bank. Cost less than HALF of what the power company wanted to run lines up here which was $55,000 after the increase in 2015. My system TODAY would actually cost even less thanks to lowered costs. The GOTCHA in 2021 is that the damned Shipping Costs have effectively doubled the cost for Batteries and some other equipment. Also the added Tariffs & Duties which ONLY Goes into the Revenue Bucket of the government which WE the Citizens pay (no company pays it you know, it's all tacked on to the MSRP).

Right at this moment, over 250,000 people are without power due to storms in the region, yet I have power, I look out and see the 3 Valley's below (I'm 1700' above on a ridge) and see the odd lights on with others who have Solar & Battery... Couple of those are BIG Dairy Ops who use BioGas & Generators, Solar Panels & Batteries and 1 also has a 10kw Windturbine that never stops (sweet spot between the valley's.) Dairy Farms losing power can become extremely costly very quickly and Insurances are ludicrous !


----------



## Kellyflip

About 3 years ago installed 18 355 watt panel's with enphase IQ7+ inverters. They put out 295 watts each. Cost about $8700 i think. 12% focus on energy rebate and 30% fed tax credit for about $5000 total final cost. Save about $100 a month. Will be paid back in 5 years. We are grid connected with net metering. We make 1-2000 kwh a year more tha we use. Installing electric tankless water heater this spring to use more of our excess. We heat with wood and have a mini split heat pump for days it does not make sense to start a fire. Propane water heater now with a 40 gallin tempering tank installed on our loft which prewarms our 50-52 degree well water to 70-75 and greatly reduces energy for water heating. I should mention my solar cost was very low due to installing 100% myself. I do industrial automation so I had a lot of knowledge of electricity and controls. We hope to someday go offgrid if battery prices go down enough. I guess I should also mention I live in Wisconsin. we do have to buy some power in Dec. Jan. and Feb. due to cloudy days. but have excess in summer. the net metering is OK but we pay 12.6 cents per KWH and they only pay us 2.9 cents per KWH. (thtas the reason for finding all ways to use our excess)


----------



## Fishindude

Much like wood heat, I would treat it as supplemental. A nice addition, but would hate to fully rely on it.
Nice to be able to run all the power in the shop at night and a welder too if you want to.


----------



## Forcast

ET1 SS said:


> I am not sure how canning food affects power consumption.
> 
> If you consume energy you will pay for it. Whether that energy is gasoline, propane, or diesel it all costs money.
> 
> Nearly every home in our town has generators. Most homes run two generators. One time a neighbor was griping to me about how much fuel his generator eats. he goes through $150 a month on generator fuel. He is a FFL gunsmith, his insurance company insists that his shop must have power 24/7. So he had a nice propane generator installed. and of course whenever the power grid is up, he is on grid. But when the power grid goes down every few weeks, then his generator kicks on automatically. Thus the $150 a month average fuel bill.


Dont use a refrigerator


----------



## doc-

Steve_S said:


> Right at this moment, over 250,000 people are without power due to storms in the region, yet I have power,....


Although one good local down draft in a thunderstorm and you could be without power while those other 250,000 still have theirs....They will get threirs restored in a day or two at no additional cost, but yours will cost another $30K to replace and take weeks to months to do it.

Here's an honest evaluation of the factors that affect cost & feasibility of installing PV--although it ignores the cost of lost investment potential from tying up your cash or borrowing, and the cost of battery replacements. It works out well for some and not so smart for others, depending on where you live.








How much do solar panels cost?


Thinking of investing in solar energy? You’re likely wondering how much solar panels cost. But you should also consider whether they’re worth it.




www.foxbusiness.com


----------



## bpmahagan

This is our second summer pretty much off the electrical grid. We have a knife switch that allows us to go back to the grid if needed. It is needed when we use our 220v table saw. The startup draw is too much for our inverters. If not using the table saw we'll switch over to grid power one day a month. This is so the power company doesn't pull our meter.

We have 10 kW of ground mounted solar panels and 27 kWh of battery. About to add another 5.4 kWh battery. Last summer we ran out of power very infrequently but with the heat this summer it's almost a daily occurrence to run out at some point during the early morning. Our central AC system has a two speed compressor. Obviously the top speed didn't kick in much last year but it is happening daily this year. Earlier this year we added a propane powered generator and a 1000 gallon propane tank. This gets us through until the sun is up.

No way this setup is or ever will save us money. We don't sell back to the power company. They sell electricity at 12 - 13 cents per kWh and buy it back for 1 cent. Not to mention if we were grid tied and selling it back, when the grid goes down so does the solar system. There's a fail safe to make sure you don't kill a lineman by sending power back up the line when they think there is no power on that line.

So why? As the world seems to be going crazier and crazier, we want to be as self sufficient as possible. As our money becomes worth less and less our strategy has become to convert money into useful things. Hope for the best but plan for the worst.


----------



## doc-

bpmahagan said:


> So why? As the world seems to be going crazier and crazier, we want to be as self sufficient as possible. As our money becomes worth less and less our strategy has become to convert money into useful things. Hope for the best but plan for the worst.


Right. The main reason to generate your own power is for energy security....Here in WI, we only have ~60-70 clear days per year, according the NWS. Solar power production decreases linearly with solar irradiance. I had to install a 2kW system just to run my well pump....

I want to use an Unreliable Alternate to run my furnace circulating pumps. That would require ~45kW-hr of juice each month (only 5-10% of my total energy use) Using one of those solar calculator sites, for my location, it would take a 6kW system (cost ~ $16,000) to provide that, based an average sun conditons-- but average doesn;t keep me from freezing on the many severely overcast days of winter, so I'd have to go bigger with a 12-15 kW installation-- We're talking sbout $45,000 just to run a couple little pumps. Rdiculous....It's a niche solution to the power problem and will never be anything else.


----------



## JRHill02

I invested in some land with the intent of our retirement there some day in the future. The future for me ended up coming much sooner than expected. The land is beautifully rugged, fairly remote and not easily accessed. Needless to say there are no accessible utilities of any kind and barely enough of a signal to send/receive a text message on most days. And there will probably never be any utilities/signal. Heh, the rural power company wanted $125k to bring power to a few seasonal cabins a half mile from the nearest point and that was with a 50% cost share from a gov't program if the application was approved. It wasn't. We're a mile further as the raven flies.... So from the beginning we knew we'd have to supply for our own power needs.

Our power is 100% solar for 9 months of the year. A generator is needed for most power needed from the end of Nov trough mid Jan each year as there is no sun around the winter solstice. The buildings' power is supplied by panels capable of 3000 watts to batteries (370 amp hours) with the standard system components. The water well is its own system of 800 watts. It has been a considerable learning experience. I have professional experience with A/C and D/C systems, wiring, workmanship, etc. Where the majority of the learning occurred was with batteries and I had a fair bit of experience there too, but not in an off-grid situation. When all was in place, tuned and programmed, we have all the electric power we need. Hot water and cooking are via a 100g propane tank which lasts 2 years.

But batteries were the Achilles heel. Over the first 11 years I went through 2 banks of batteries for the house and 2 on the well (the well replacement batteries are still in service but are at end of life). I have tested and collected battery data, documented and analyzed enough info to write a book. But it would be our book and actually more of a diary. Every solar implementation is different, even with identical components, because each varies by location, weather, maintenance and USAGE patterns For us, just the amortization of batteries over the years would exceed cost of grid power if it was available without building the transmission lines.

To sum this up, I think/hope/pray that we have the solution in place. The system now has lithium batteries in service.


----------



## muleskinner2

a7736100 said:


> Do you end up paying nothing to the power company, or are you just off grid?


Many of my neighbors are off grid, and use only solar power. At least two of them claim that they put their system together from discarded parts they found at the dump. I bought property with power at the property line, so I had it hooked up.


----------



## JRHill02

doc- said:


> *1) *It seems that those who get by on solar have to conserve so much to do it...If they just conserved that much on grid power, their costs would be next to nothing anyway...
> 
> *2)* The only good reason to go solar is to ensure power security when the grid goes down.


I had to go back and re-read this thread from the beginning. Doc, some input to your post:

1) Not really but it fully depends on how you use your electricity. These days when ya replace a fridge, washing machine, TV, etc. you have some options. Whether I had utility power or not I'd probably do the Energy Star appliance if it didn't cost a crazy premium. Maybe the biggest premium we paid was for the LG front loader. And then it wasn't so much related to power but the fact that it really kicks out some really clean laundry and minimizes the power, water and detergent at the same time. And we hang them cause the clothes smell so good. If ya want to see the thing hog power then run a cycle LG on Sanitary, Allergen or Tub Clean with the electric heater.... But we _have_ spent a little extra on LEDs. And we don't use a drip coffee maker anymore because the press tastes better and we grind our beans with, yes, an electric grinder. The sausage stuffer is a power "hog" (wink).
One the heavier side of the spectrum we use no 240vac for household purposes. I have no problem starting/running an 8" bench grinder in the shop 120' away, running the table saw on thick hardwood while on solar and other heavier stuff. But to your point I have a Miller Bobcat for remote stuff and it gets used for welding, powering the 240vac spot welder and metal mill, planers, hand grinder on and off, etc. It's no big deal. Keeps it cycling at intervals when needed anyway as a backup to the primary generator. its fuel consumption stinks. There is a recent post from someone that has a full machine shop with multiple lathes, mills, welders, etc. Of course that is a problem with solar independence.

2) Not. You can live, with some planning, wherever the heck you want and you don't have to live like a power pauper. You don't have to be a slave to the utility and rate increases. You can enjoy and live in modern times with NO access or connection. But nope, you are not going to charge an EV at home (but we don't care because they don't have a time proven 3/4 or 1t rig anyway). It seems you have a bad attitude and with some justification. Location, weather, another system to maintain, etc.

I agree on one thing: if you have grid power available it is worth it esp. if you are a switch flipper at your total convenience. But if you design your system, including the flow pumps to your circulating system, it doesn't have to be so bad. From what I read you are concerned about powering pumps. I could give you some input.


----------



## muleskinner2

Forcast said:


> You can save 60k!
> Just use oil lamps,wood stove, can your food and tote water.


Been there, done that. Have neighbors who still do.


----------



## JRHill02

bpmahagan said:


> Hope for the best but plan for the worst.


Clicking LIKE just doesn't cover it.


----------



## Kmac15

We went solar in January. Got our battery back up installed last week. We figured out that spending the money we would have spent on electricity to pay for the panels and battery it will take us 15 years. The warranty is for 20 years 
lol. We have gone through hurricanes and ice storms that cut us off for weeks. With DH on a Cpap at night and a freezer full of food the piece of might was worth the trouble


----------



## Solar Geek

We are and can be net zero anytime. 
18 KW and full battery backup that will run the house (especially if there is any sun) for many days. 
4,000 sq ft, 5 bedroom, 3 bath now 10 year old home we had built. 
Massive 140" x 84" main windows allow for agressive passive solar to fully heat the house on any sunny day from 11/1 to 3/1. No sun in house at any other time. Solar engineers figured it all out with the overhangs and other south facing windows.
Lopi Liberty wood stove to heat home and yes you can actually cook on it but the grease/cooking stuff stains it so we have not used it in that way at this house (last house had the same wood stove and we did use it to cook and it just didn't look as pretty....)
ICF (insulated concrete forms) and 
earth sheltered to the north. Full on south facing unimpeded. 
Solar hot water free also. (Tubes for that). 

Can't run the a/c or hvac on it or electric stove or clothes dryer (240V items). But all else is backed up incuding all ceiling fans, lights, well, and 2 deep freezes and pole barn. 

The only time we spend $$ is in winter when the panels are snow or ice covered for long periods (central WI) but we make it up in summer.

AND when my DH is too tired to get the wood in. I can not lift the sizes he cuts and he will not entertain small wood pieces... So we then turn on central heat. So far, over 10 years, we have made it back to be net zero.
Up till Covid we entertained our large families and church friends a ton. 
Lots of use of 240V stove, all appliances, a/c, heat. No skimping to get to net zero. Still broke even all but 1 year (our 1st). 
Here is the caveat. The big subsidies from states such as we got the 1st time we did this in 2003, have mostly dropped to almost nothing. The 30% tax break along with staggering the build (6Kw each year for 3 years) got us the most from both feds and state. 
BUT for all those starting now, the actual product costs have dropped unbelievably.

For a house this size, pole barn, irrigation system, exterior lights, and our life style, *we run $400+/mo electric bill (no gas in the house) if no solar and Lopi Liberty wood stove which carries the entire home comfortably.* 
So we are really close to breaking even -- about 2.75 years to go. No write offs for depreciation.

We are 10+ years in and plan to replace the batteries with lithium this year so that as we age (further...) we will not have to take that on. 

I grew up in and love small homes. 1300 sq ft was huge to me. But DH loves big homes so here we are. And hopefully staying.


----------



## doc-

^^^
Central WI only gets 3-4 hrs of useable sun per day (we'll give you the benefit of the doubt and call it 4), averaged over the year.....In WI we pay in the range of 17c / kW-hr. Your bill averages $400 per month, therefore you use 28,800kWhr/yr --almost 3x the usaeage of the average American household.

Solar Calculator According this site, you need a >26kW array to supply that, and according to this site Off-Grid Solar System Sizing Calculator you need a 45kW array (calculated specifically to Wausau - 2.97 hrs/d of sun).....

Somethng doesn't jive.

I'm not "against" solar. I just tthink realistically about it. It may make great economic sense to install it if you live in Phoenix. Not so much in WI, except for small, specific applications-- things like well pumps and heat. Your life depends on those. You don't need to be watching Ophra or Wheel of Fortune on your big screen TV when the SHTF and MadMax is coming to kill you for your potatoes.

Relatively small solar or wind can be installed for chump change and will only add a few $hundred to your grid energy bills over a lifetime. I figure my solar for water will add only ~$500 to my energy costs over 20yrs (I should live that long) and less tthan that to my costs for a small wind generator for the heating pumps. a small price for the security gained.

OTOH- a 15kW system would cost me $42,000+ installled and last no more than 25 yrs-- that's $1700/yr, not counting battery replacement costs every 5 yrs...but my grid costs are only $1200.yr now-- with no worry about replacement costs or repairs.


----------



## JRHill02

BTW, when I went with lithium I discovered something significant: They charge and discharge in the 98% range OF EFFICIENCY. In other words almost nothing is lost to chemistry, heat and self discharge. So the panel arrays are getting older is all of a sudden supplying a charge that is realized and captured. My panels are 50% through their projected lifetime. But who would know? Seriously if was like adding panels without doing it.


----------



## Solar Geek

doc- said:


> ^^^
> Central WI only gets 3-4 hrs of useable sun per day (we'll give you the benefit of the doubt and call it 4), averaged over the year.....In WI we pay in the range of 17c / kW-hr. Your bill averages $400 per month, therefore you use 28,800kWhr/yr --almost 3x the usaeage of the average American household.
> 
> Solar Calculator According this site, you need a >26kW array to supply that, and according to this site Off-Grid Solar System Sizing Calculator you need a 45kW array (calculated specifically to Wausau - 2.97 hrs/d of sun).....
> 
> Somethng doesn't jive.
> 
> I'm not "against" solar. I just tthink realistically about it. It may make great economic sense to install it if you live in Phoenix. Not so much in WI, except for small, specific applications-- things like well pumps and heat. Your life depends on those. You don't need to be watching Ophra or Wheel of Fortune on your big screen TV when the SHTF and MadMax is coming to kill you for your potatoes.
> 
> Relatively small solar or wind can be installed for chump change and will only add a few $hundred to your grid energy bills over a lifetime. I figure my solar for water will add only ~$500 to my energy costs over 20yrs (I should live that long) and less tthan that to my costs for a small wind generator for the heating pumps. a small price for the security gained.
> 
> OTOH- a 15kW system would cost me $42,000+ installled and last no more than 25 yrs-- that's $1700/yr, not counting battery replacement costs every 5 yrs...but my grid costs are only $1200.yr now-- with no worry about replacement costs or repairs.


Doc: 
I have no idea if those #s you quoted are accurate for our area of wide open spaces. 
(And actually Phoenix is too hot to maximize the use of solar. "Although solar panels use sunlight to produce energy, they do not require heat in any way. In fact, *solar panels may run about 10 to 25 percent less efficient on warm, dry days reaching 90 degrees Fahrenheit or higher*. The hotter the ambient air becomes, the less efficient your solar panels will be." Does Temperature Affect Solar Panel Efficiency? | Energy Saving Pros.)

Re our high electric bills: 
So THE HOUSE,WHILE PASSIVE SOLAR, IS CATHEDRAL CEILINGS THROUGHOUT 22' tall. Without our wood stove, our electric needs, heating and a/c costs brings that to $400/month approximately except if we have tons of sunny days in winter. We have tested this several times.* We have tons of windows because we can. *Super insulated but still, all windows leak air. If we run the wood stove, then the cost drops. But we built knowing we would age here GOD willing, and want to not worry about costs. 
*Fully electric homes are not cheap to run.* 2 huge stand up deep freezes, 50'x40' pole barn and all the electric boy toys you can imagine. All must be charged. I cook for tons of people who cannot or need help. All electric stove. 3 canners. Well pump. We irrigate 1.5 acres. You get the picture. 

1.We have 5 acres cleared around the solar. Our solar engineers gave us optimum siting for our 100 foot array. And solar hot water array. And for our roof overhangs. 
We placed the array 100% due south No blockages or shadows during peak hours (looked at 40 parcels of land before buying this one to garner clear sunshine).
*2. Your cost estimate is off for us.
Our electric costs are not with a big utility. We must clear making $51 each month to just begin to save on our bill:
We are forced to belong to a "coop" for electric and internet/phone (2 coops) and we have each month 2 large add on cost; one fixed and the other floats up but rarely down. No options unless you want to be completely off-grid which is not our choice right now. 
a. There is a $32.40 "facility charge" on us each month for being allowed to use the grid. *Never had that in Milwaukee area. 
*b. EVERY MONTH THE COOP ASSESSES OR CREDITS A "POWER COST" amount. It is $.03 (3 cents) per KWh we generate in addtion to the actual power cost to us that all pay. (Unlike Milwaukee and I believe Madison --WeEnergies & Alliant) 
This month for 5/9-6/8 that was a "cost" of $18.57. It has nothing to do with our solar generation; it is the cost of the Utilities buying power for that time frame.

So that raises the cost of our bill before we generate to sell back $1 to $51. *So our actual bill would be $350 without those costs. But they exist so I count them in. 
*c. WI non-taxeable program adds 3% taxes on top of that! *

Anyhow, we have all our records. We netted out each year once we got the full array installed (did in those 3 segments to get the state $$ & fed tax rebates.
We love our system and it is not for everyone. Not terribly simple but it is turnkey. We do no work, just call our solar guy. In 10 years we have never paid him another bill. We do fill large coolers with beer, frozen homemade foods and steaks done rare).


----------



## muleskinner2

ET1 SS said:


> I am not sure how canning food affects power consumption


If all of your stored food was canned, you wouldn't need a freezer. No freezer equals lower or no electric bill at all.


----------



## dayjh

we are in the process of getting a 10KW system installed with 17kw battery. We are in Wisconsin on 40 acres.
we are not doing it to save money but to be independent. It's a big cost and we will have to replace batteries in the future and planning for it.


----------



## JRHill02

dayjh said:


> 17kw battery..


Wow, oh wow. Did you hire out the design of this system?

When you say 10kw, is that what AC load you can power or is it the 'output' of the panels? That s a LOT of battery to replace down the road.


----------



## JRHill02

doc- said:


> Somethng doesn't jive.


I meant to mention this earlier when I saw your calculations. There is a real thing called "cloud edge effect." Some times you don't have direct sunlight. But what there may be is refraction. It happens when clouds move by and the edge of the cloud throws you some good charge even without the panels having direct sun hitting them. It also happens on misty or foggy days depending on conditions. The bottom line to my point is that I have gotten a quarter of the total panels' output just from the effect. It's a pretty cool thing to have the sun behind the trees at the top of the canyon and still get a solar charge....

Also to the point, did you know you can even get some solar collection on a brightly moon lit night? It may not count for much of anything but it does happen.


----------



## doc-

As I said. output from a solar cell decreases linearly with solar illuminescence...With no clouds in the sky, for those 3-5 hours in the middle of the day, a 4 kW array will put out 4kWs for those 3-5 hrs (12-20kW-hr)....But with a 50% cloud cover, it'll only put out 2kW. With overcast skies, it'll only put out 1/2 kW or less....That means the average family would still use 30 kW-hr/d, but only be producing 2kW-hr on the many cloudy days in WI's winter....After 7 straigh days of no sun (not uncommon in Jan in WI) that average family is 196kW-hr in the hole...To put that in perspective, a typical car battery holds 600 W, so you'd need a battery bank of 327 car batteries to keep the lights on, or a 60kW (!!) solar array.


----------



## JRHill02

jessyrich said:


> Not enough at the moment but we would like to make it happen next year probably.


I don't get it. With all the back and forth on this thread, why would you do solar? Not like this thread is the final word by any means but why? Are you in a sun rich environment? Are you technical?


----------



## outdoorlover

a7736100 said:


> Do you end up paying nothing to the power company, or are you just off grid?


Not yet, I just use a 200W portable solar panels for my camping and outdoor activity! I really have a home backup battery too. 2000W can power for a while time.


----------



## JRHill02

a7736100 said:


> Do you end up paying nothing to the power company, or are you just off grid?


So, why did you ask?


----------



## muleskinner2

My house is heated all winter by stored solar energy. And when I burn the fire wood, that energy is released into the room.


----------



## Danaus29

My neighbor, who has a much larger roof area than mine and quite a bit more sun, just got their system hooked up a couple weeks ago. They don't know if the system will pay for itself before it loses it's efficiency yet. We'll all find out in a couple months.


----------



## muleskinner2

I would never put solar panels on my roof. If I get a foot of snow over night, it can't slide off if it is anchored by the solar panels. And if you go up and try to shovel or sweep it off you could easily damage the panels. Every array of solar panels around here in set up on the ground, or on a post or rack standing alone beside the house.


----------



## doc-

muleskinner2 said:


> I would never put solar panels on my roof. If I get a foot of snow over night, it can't slide off if it is anchored by the solar panels. And if you go up and try to shovel or sweep it off you could easily damage the panels. Every array of solar panels around here in set up on the ground, or on a post or rack standing alone beside the house.


Everybody's situation is different.

The advantage of roof top installation is that it doesn't take up any land not already taken up anyway. The panels can also help shade the house and keep it cooler....Many disadvantages-- As you note, difficult access for routine maintenance, but the places they work best don't usually need to worry about snow removal.....Putting on a new roof when needed becomes a nightmare of extra work and expense.


----------



## JRHill02

muleskinner2 said:


> I would never put solar panels on my roof. If I get a foot of snow over night, it can't slide off if it is anchored by the solar panels. And if you go up and try to shovel or sweep it off you could easily damage the panels. Every array of solar panels around here in set up on the ground, or on a post or rack standing alone beside the house.


To shed snow a lot depends on the pitch of the roof, the distance between panels and of course the temperatures. Even if it gets well below freezing over night, during the day the sun, even through moderate cloud cover, will cause the snow to sag enough to expose some of the panel at the top. The panel will then heat causing more sag and so on and they often self clear. The problem is if the panels are far enough apart that the snow builds up between them and makes a dam. Or if it continues to snow and stays well below freezing.

But, yeah, sometimes you're just plain screwed and out comes the ladder and a 25' window washing pole. Especially with a foot of the stuff. Its no fun on a wet or icy steel roof unless you have a big thick pile of the stuff to fall onto:


----------



## GTX63

My neighbor is about to go 100% off of the grid. Contractors are at his house as I type. I will try to get over there later and get the specifics on his system.


----------



## Danaus29

I have about a 20 foot by 20 foot spot of sunny yard. There's no way I'm putting solar panels in that.


----------



## 012345

I have 2 cabins on the property. The first I call the "Utility Building" or "Gate House" which is grid tied. My second house would have cost $30K to get grid power to it so I Invested $24K on a big enough system to run the house. Will use Propane for cooking there as well, no clothes drier and wood for heat. No AC needed as the seasonal temps stay very comfortable and with a full underground basement we can hang out down there in that living area if it gets warm. Propane generator for backup and a second Solar Generator that is big enough to power the fridge and other things in case all goes dead. Can take the solar generator and plug into the utility building to charge if it stays cloudy too long.


----------



## mamagoose

Vjk said:


> It's not so much about conserving as timing.


timing for your next bank of batteries


----------



## Vjk

mamagoose said:


> timing for your next bank of batteries


Non sequitur.


----------



## GTX63

I have a neighbor that just switched over to a system that powers their house, one barn and a small office/shed. They have had a lot of bugs and issues so far and as far as I know, after about a month, they are still mostly on the grid. Most of the trouble that I am aware of has been contractor related.


----------



## doc-

idayrarecorded said:


> We've been using solar panels to power our entire home for the past year, and we couldn't be happier!


Welcome, Iday-- (if I may call you by your first name)--

Where do you live (ie- how much sun can you count on each day)? How big is your array? What did it cost you? And what is your monthly energy usage?

All these factors are important in determining whether or not solar is feasible and wise for any given situation.

Another factor is your economic situation. . It's like the choice to rent an apartment or buy a house-- You rent when your meager means prevents you from coming up with a down payment/get a mortgage, or to cover a large monthly mortgage. You buy when it fits in comfortably with your budget.

...and another factor just struck me-- This time next week, people in Tampa may well be without power. Those who rely on the grid will probably have it restored within a few days at most. Those with large solar arrays may be on a long waiting list to have their panels replaced (unless the people in SC who find them will be kind enough to mail them back promptly)..


----------



## Danaus29

@doc- , I never thought about those panels blowing away (and taking the roof with them) until now.


----------



## MichaelK!

We had a wind storm that got under the metal roofing of my workshop, and peeled it back like a pull-tab can. You could see the holes in the roofing where it pulled it right off the roofing screws (screws were still in the roof).

The pulling off of the roofing STOPPED at where the solar frame started, and kept me from losing a whole section of steel roofing. I ended up having to replace only one single 12' length roofing strip with a leftover. Went to Home Depot and bought wider-head roofing screws that would hold better than the screws that originally came with the panels. No problems since then.


----------



## doc-

MichaelK! said:


> We had a wind storm that got under the metal roofing of my workshop, and peeled it back like a pull-tab can. You could see the holes in the roofing where it pulled it right off the roofing screws (screws were still in the roof).
> 
> The pulling off of the roofing STOPPED at where the solar frame started, and kept me from losing a whole section of steel roofing. I ended up having to replace only one single 12' length roofing strip with a leftover. Went to Home Depot and bought wider-head roofing screws that would hold better than the screws that originally came with the panels. No problems since then.


Good for you, but your wind storm probably involved winds <50 mph. A hurricane is 120mph+ and a tornado works by pressure differences causing even brick houses to explode. Not everyone has to take those kinds of things into consideration., but some do....Hail is the most common weather related damage cause for solar panels.

Does Homeowners Insurance Cover Solar Panels? What You Need To Know! | House Grail _ " Both of these instances should be covered, as long as you have sufficient proof. That being said, *solar panels will raise your insurance premium* since they’re so costly to replace."_


----------



## Danaus29

I never thought about the insurance aspect of the panels. I'll have to ask my neighbor if hers raised their rates. 

She has spent most of the summer waiting for final inspections, last minute installations and the meter replacement (digital meters can't run backwards). Last month her panels were still not completely hooked up but she was making payments on them.


----------



## JRHill02

Hmmm, . My system was in place when the policy was written. The company knew we were off grid. Originally I had tried to get coverage from an agent who insured our vehicles and that guy wouldn't even come out to quote our home so we had to go with an insurer that specializes in farm and ranch policies but they require cultivated crop land and/or livestock and one pig didn't qualify. So we bought a sow so we had a breeding pair and a lamb. After two+ years and no claims we tried the carrier that covered our vehicles but this time a different agent and it was no problem. They covered everything. ATV/UTV, tractors, even the wood mill and liability for protection from a trespasser/poacher who falls and breaks his arm. I know that in the pictures he took the panels were captured. Hopefully we'll never find out. Isn't that the way it is with insurance?


----------



## MichaelK!

doc- said:


> Good for you, but your wind storm probably involved winds <50 mph. A hurricane is 120mph+ and a tornado works by pressure differences causing even brick houses to explode. Not everyone has to take those kinds of things into consideration.


Well, if you're in a storm bad enough to cause your brick home to explode, I don't think you'll be worried most about your solar panels at that point.


----------

