# New (and first) LGD



## solas4me (Apr 27, 2012)

Our family has our new (and first) LGD for our small hobby farm. We are raising a small flock of Katahdin Sheep. We are not new to the dog world, I was a LE K9 handler and we have had many GSDs (Czech Shepherds specifically) and other breeds, our current family companion dog (protector) is a Dutch Shepherd.

The New LGD is a 6 month old Border Collie / Great Pyrenees. We are looking forward to integrating him into our life and the farm. To the experienced LGD folks here, what is the best piece of advice you can give me concerning training an LGD?

Thank you,
Justin


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

solas4me said:


> Our family has our new (and first) LGD for our small hobby farm. We are raising a small flock of Katahdin Sheep. We are not new to the dog world, I was a LE K9 handler and we have had many GSDs (Czech Shepherds specifically) and other breeds, our current family companion dog (protector) is a Dutch Shepherd.
> 
> The New LGD is a 6 month old Border Collie / Great Pyrenees. We are looking forward to integrating him into our life and the farm. To the experienced LGD folks here, what is the best piece of advice you can give me concerning training an LGD?
> 
> ...


Since I've never had an LGD but am still in the dreaming stage, the only advice i can offer is...

HOW DARE YOU START THIS THREAD WITH OUT PIX!


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

If you have dog training experience, you will likely be fine. Much of it is the same. Your difficulty may be the fact you have a dog that has 2 opposing instincts--one to guard, and one to herd. Chances are it will work out fine, but I would suggest you keep a close eye on things for the next 6-12 months, as you may have to "guide" the instincts you consider OK, and discourage the ones that are undesirable. Be forewarned that most LGD's seem to go through a teenage phase around 7-9 months where they begin testing all your boundaries and rules, and seeing what they can get away with. They may even rough up the stock a bit in their too-rough play and desire to establish dominance. Just be aware so you can immediately discourage as necessary. Chances are high he will make a few mistakes as he figures out, but by 18 months, you will likely have a great dog. That being said, I would recommend you NOT expect the great obedience you may be used to in working with K9 programs. I used to work with service dog programs, where the dogs were expected to not bark, not whine, not paw, eat NOTHING without permission, relieve themselves on command (oh, yeah--I was once traveling with a service dog-in-training, we were stuck INSIDE an airport, and dog had to go. I had no choice but to command the dog to pee in a cup in a bathroom stall! That's obedience!!) LGD's are very different. As a general rule, LGD's in general are encouraged to be very independent. They think about the situation before responding to a command. My girl will often go patrol the perimeter quickly to check on things before coming when I call. You'll definitely learn some patience, because LGD time is a little different than my time. That being said, the AS part of your dog will likely make him more responsive and sensitive than the average LGD. It will be interesting.


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## CageFreeFamily (Jul 19, 2012)

Unfortunately a Border Collie is not an LGD breed, and their prey drive (which is the basis for their herding instinct) is in opposition to the guardian instinct of the LGD breeds who have had the prey drive bred out.

Stranger things have happened, but training your pup to be able to be left unattended with your sheep is going to be tricky and may never work entirely.
The possibility of your dog chasing your flock is very high.

The LGD breeds were created to work completely independently of humans, and therefore have a very different working style than the highly trainable dogs that you are accustomed to. Combining the genetics of an intense herding dog like a BC with the fierce independence of the Pyr is a strange thing to do. I'm not sure what the breeders where after there as there aren't really any complimentary instinctual traits there. They are both farm dogs, yes, but their individual jobs do not actually overlap, and the two breed's instincts are in opposition to each other.

I would caution you to be very careful in leaving your dog unattended with your sheep. Even full LGD breeds are not completely trustworthy until they are 1-2 years old, as the puppy instinct to play with their flock can be dangerous. However training is usually a matter of consistent correction when the dog shows a tendency to mouth or chase the livestock. LGDs require very little training and are not all that concerned with human interaction, much less human thoughts on how they should do their job.

The border collie is very, very different than this. That intense predatory gaze that the BC is so famous for (and actively uses to herd the flocks) is based in a predator/prey drive instinct. They are a highly trainable dog that is meant to work closely with their handlers.

For all the LGD slowness and calm gentleness, the border collie is all speed and intensity. It's frustrating when 'breeders' throw together random and opposing genetics like this and they pawn them off to buyers as something that they are not.


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## TriWinkle (Oct 2, 2011)

I was just wondering if a Border Collie/LGD mix would be a bit confused...he don't know whether to herd them or guard them.


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## Laurie J (Mar 9, 2005)

Having a 100% border collie, and a 100% Great Pyr, I can't even imagine a cross between the two. Sorry to be negative, but my advice would be to get one or the other, but not a cross.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

I'm not saying this to hurt you; but I'm feeling sorry for the dog. (In a human it might be referred to as a split personality.)

If I had such a dog (and the only way I would have such a dog is if it were forced on me) I would use a lot of praise whenever I saw a behavior I wanted the dog to strengthen. During times the unwanted characteristics showed up, I would be on top of it as quickly as possible, turning the focus onto something that would bring out a more desirable characteristic. It would be very intense training and all involved would be exhausted! It would take a very energetic trainer to pull this off successfully!


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## terradura (Mar 19, 2012)

I have to think that the BC/GP cross is pretty common given that both are commonly used in sheep operations (at least out west) ... one guards, the other moves the animals. But the opportunities for them to get together and produce a litter now and then are probable. Even though purposely crossing the two breeds doesn't seem to make sense, I wonder what the actual product is like. I'd be very curious to hear from anyone who has such a cross. How does it behave?


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## solas4me (Apr 27, 2012)

Thank you all for your passionate replies. I do understand the breed characteristics of the BC and the GP and that they have different purposes. I do also understand drive in dogs and how it needs to be properly directed to perform a certain task. I certainly didn't seek out this BC/GP cross and I don't think that it was an intentional breeding. I will keep you all updated as to the progress with the dog.


Justin


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Border collies are very sensitive. They can take a lot of abuse when they are working, but once they are back at your side are extremely sensitive. They should be trained differently than the hard dogs you are used to. Either of these breeds, border collie, GP, could shut down if you are harsh with them.

An LGD needs to be exposed to their livestock by 16 weeks old. If this dog is not from a farm with the required livestock, he won't see them as part of "his family". He is unlikely to protect them, but he may protect the farm in general. The mechanics of not hunting the livestock is hard set, the dog either will not hunt, or it will. By six months you should be able to see if the dog stalks.

You may have a good dog there. But, if you are serious about having an LGD, you need to make sure you are getting a puppy from guarding stock, and that the puppy has been with or exposed to the preferred stock. If you got a 14 week old LGD you can get him to guard your livestock (there are a couple of ways to bond the puppy to the livestock). Read the other posts and you will see that getting a healthy puppy is important, as is getting one with the right instinct, and having been exposed to the livestock. 

Again, not saying you might not have a good addition to your farm, but don't be disappointed if he doesn't turn out to be a good guardian.


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## solas4me (Apr 27, 2012)

Maura - Thank you for your post. This dog has been exposed to sheep, he was raised with lambs on the farm that we got him from. The owners are relocating and are unable to take their sheep, thus they wanted to find a home for the dog. 

I will certainly be cautious in the training, not wanting to be overly harsh. I have trained many types and breeds of dogs for various purposes, I just haven't trained a dog for this specific task. I do appreciate everyone's thoughtful input on this topic.

Justin


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## solas4me (Apr 27, 2012)

Here is a picture of Scout: Taken at his previous home..


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## anita_fc (May 24, 2008)

I would advise starting back at the beginning as if he were a little pup. I always start a pup in a pen within the livestock area so the dog and critters can get acquainted. Even if a dog has been with sheep before, these are different sheep and he is bound to be curious about them. If they meet in an open pasture and the pup tries to investigate the sheep, the sheep may start running and trigger a chase.

Appropriate behavior in a LGD is difficult to reinforce positively because it is essentially "ignoring" the livestock.  When introducing an adult LGD to stock, I will often use a long line that the dog can drag **only while being watched**. That way if a chase starts and verbal scolding doesn't interrupt it, you can grab or jump on the line and stop him.

I have an ideal situation because I can see the entire pasture from an upstairs window. Once a dog is responsive to a verbal command to stop (or leave it) I start leaving him alone with the stock for a couple hours at a time while I observe from the house. When the dog can get through several hours daily for about two weeks without requiring a correction, then I begin giving him longer blocks of time with the stock.

Keep a close eye on the sheep for any signs of pulled wool, as that is a sign you need to increase supervision again.

Hope that helps. Good luck on cultivating the LGD half of him!

Anita
Dan-Ani Pygmy Goats, Idaho


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## Newstead (Jun 12, 2013)

Great to find someone doing just what I am. My flock of 18 Kathadin and LGD Great Pyrenees puppy arrived this week.

My house dog is a Jack Russell.

I slept in the barn with sheep and two dogs in the stall for two nights.

Dogs no longer snap at each other.

Puppy whines when left alone at night by himself with the sheep.

Puppy seem docile and wants to stay with me all the time.

How do I get her to stay with the sheep instead of trying to come up to the house?

I would post a picture of my puppy, but it seem there is only a place to post a picture using a URL.

Where is the "browse" feature to post from my files?

CC


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Newstead, look down at the bottom of the thread just past the "quick reply" for a button called "Managed Attachments". Click that and it will let you select pictures from your own computer....real handy!

Solas4me, that is a real good looking dog you have. I do hope "Scout" learns what you want him to.


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

Dogs are dogs, if your old enough to be a retired K-9 LEO in the US. Chances are very good that you know the Methods of Bill Koehler, Gert Sullivan & Ed Frawley. All those rules still apply, the game is the same just with different players and objectives.
My Idea would be, Since you said small homestead, try to direct the drive side to a fence line perimeter patrol right off the bat. Teach the herd dog that anywhere inside the fence is ok for the flock, so they dont have to drive them unless they are outside of the fence. May sound crazy but so is trying to outsmart a Dutchie!
Good luck


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Solas4me, how is Scout doing?


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## solas4me (Apr 27, 2012)

Scout has been given a new home. A cattle farmer that was looking for a herding dog has given Scout a home where he can put his herding instincts to work. We just didn't feel that we would be able to give him the environment in which he could truly thrive and be happy given his strong herding drive.

Justin


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

Good for you. A lot of people would have kept smashing their head into the wall trying to make it work. Find a LGD breed and try that. I'm real happy with our GPs.


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Yes, smart and very caring move.


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## solas4me (Apr 27, 2012)

Thank you all for your kind encouragement. We will begin the search for a true LGD now.

Justin


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

Well, as most in here already know, I'm biased! My little Karakachan pup is turning into a great guardian; so I wouldn't hesitate to recommend that breed.


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