# Breeding our LGD



## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

We have a Great Pyrenees female that will be 2 years old in July. We know she has cycled a couple of times, and expect her to cycle again in about two months. She is a working dog, with her neutered brother, overseeing our goats.

We would like to breed her, but don't have a direct resource to a male. We've checked in with the folks we bought her from, but they don't have a line on a male for us right now.

Any thoughts on the better places to look? We are in the Sierra Foothills in Northern California.


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## AverageJo (Sep 24, 2010)

Is she registered? Do you want a registered male to breed her? If so, then I'd look in a membership directory or something for a breeder in your state. If it doesn't matter if the male is registered or not, you could ask your vet and see if he could post to other vets to see if anyone knows of an intact male that meets your requirements. Guess you could also put an ad on Craigslist for that matter. Wonder what other suggestions folks will give you. Note: I've never done this, so it's just shooting from the hip. No disrespect or offense meant.


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## CottageLife (Jul 20, 2009)

Sorry, no advice from me as I see how many pyr's are in shelters being killed daily because there are more pyrs out there than homes for all the ones being born. 

Please consider why you are wanting to breed her. Is she the best of her breed (proven in shows, and with health clearances)? Will you always take back her puppies if the owners can't keep them? 

Check out some of the rescues for pyrs and see how many they can't save because they need more foster homes for these dogs. Just a thought.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

CottageLife said:


> Sorry, no advice from me as I see how many pyr's are in shelters being killed daily because there are more pyrs out there than homes for all the ones being born.
> 
> Please consider why you are wanting to breed her. Is she the best of her breed (proven in shows, and with health clearances)? Will you always take back her puppies if the owners can't keep them?
> 
> Check out some of the rescues for pyrs and see how many they can't save because they need more foster homes for these dogs. Just a thought.


This. 100%.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

I don't think an LGD needs to be a show dog, proven in the field is enough - so long as hips are checked.

But it must be PROVEN as opposed to just there. I could claim my pug mix keeps coyotes away, because there are never any on my place. 
But the truth is I have a 10 acre lot, surrounded by 5 and 10 acre lots, and the coyotes mostly stick to the huge, 100+ acre tracts to every side, rarely even setting foot on my property, and then it's to use the wet-weather creek as a highway and are gone. Why would they stay on my high-traffic, high canine population place when there are big, empty, game-filled places all around?
I have a neighbor with THREE Pyrs on 5 acres who swears they keep coyotes away - they keep away elephants and tigers, too, kwim?

So is the mother really, _truly_ a working parent? 
Is she 100% trustworthy? I have yet to personally meet a Pyrenees who hasn't itself killed far more of it's owner's animals then any predator on the place. (Not to say that they don't exist, just saying that across 4 states I have never, personally met one) From barn cats and poultry to lambs, kids and newly bought in adults. 
The owners always have an excuse - but if I was buying an LGD puppy I'd most certainly want one from a farm with happy poultry, barn cats and babies hanging around the LGD and no excuses needed.

Around here, I can get purebred Pyrenees puppies for $50 any day of the week, and go to any livestock auction or sale and someone will have a few there, free.
Every last person selling them cheap and giving them away are _totally_ befuddled that no one wants their "good working pups" with bad hips and just-there parents. Most of them end up shot before they're 2.

Even if there is a local market where you're at - what makes your dog head and shoulders above the rest? Why would I, or anyone, want her puppies? They have pretty big litters, a couple of folks casually saying they'd like a pup won't be enough.

And if I had a female that good, I'd be really, really picky on the male I bred her to. He counts too.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Have her hips checked, regardless of whether or not she gets bred. A dog that appears to be fine may be crippled by age 4. Make sure the sire is also hip checked and is a real working dog.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

CottageLife said:


> Sorry, no advice from me as I see how many pyr's are in shelters being killed daily because there are more pyrs out there than homes for all the ones being born.


It is very doubtful that a GP from a shelter would be a good LGD. Pets are different than working dogs. The puppies this poster is having will be raised by working parents with livestock. They will be working dogs. Apples and Oranges.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

mekasmom said:


> It is very doubtful that a GP from a shelter would be a good LGD. Pets are different than working dogs. The puppies this poster is having will be raised by working parents with livestock. They will be working dogs. Apples and Oranges.


I think the point she was making was that there is already an excess of pyrs. It's really easy to buy a pup from working parents for $150, rather than create a litter, many of whom will add to the excess pups already out there.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

mekasmom said:


> It is very doubtful that a GP from a shelter would be a good LGD. Pets are different than working dogs. The puppies this poster is having will be raised by working parents with livestock. They will be working dogs. Apples and Oranges.


But the pups in the shelter were probably born to a LGD. GP's have HUGE litters and often the owners will give them away to anyone who will take them. Then when the pups grow up and the owners can't handle the barking/grooming/feed bill, they wind up in the shelters. I used to work in an animal shelter, so I speak from first-hand experience. 

I do agree that a dog you get from a shelter, who hasn't been around livestock since he was separated from his working dam at 8-12 weeks of age, isn't a good candidate to be a LGD. They haven't been raised with stock and no other dogs have taught them the LGD ropes.

And of course as with any large breed dog, you've got to check those hips and elbows! Nothing worse than putting a few years of hard training into a working dog, only to have them come up lame and have to be put to sleep due to bad hips/elbows 

If the dog is a solid LGD and has solid hips/elbows, the OP can find a stud who is also a proven LGD with great hips/elbows, and the owner is prepared to line up a dozen good homes for the pups (with deposits down as insurance that they are serious about wanting a pup) before the breeding is done, then I say go for it!


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

mekasmom said:


> It is very doubtful that a GP from a shelter would be a good LGD. Pets are different than working dogs. The puppies this poster is having will be raised by working parents with livestock. They will be working dogs. Apples and Oranges.


That's a pretty big assumption to make. The pyrs being put down around _here_ were all born and raised in a barn and happy to bark all night. To some, that makes them working dogs and the one littermate who was lucky enough to have an owner that fenced it adequately - should have puppies, what with being a working dog and all...

A modicum of instinct does not a working dog make. 
And a working dog shouldn't necessarily be a _breeding_ dog. A breeding dog should be above average.
Even then, finding good working homes for 10 (or more) 120 pound dogs is no easy thing. 
Even when they are of exceptionally good quality it can be hard. An adequate Pyr who does just fine guarding still stands a _very_ good chance of being put down here. There's a lot of them. So why make more unless they are very, VERY good?


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

MHO
Just from a monetary stand point, it cost just as much to feed the very best as it does some yard rat. 
In the long run vets costs for the best should be lower because they are of a higher quality stock specimens. 
* Dont be in a hurry or short cut because a male is available,* the ***** you have is young at 2 and should have at least 2-3 more years in which she can breed. That gives you plenty of time to do your homework if you are going to breed and find the very best match up for your female. Search out GP clubs and registries nationally or even world wide, your here so you have the internet as a tool.
You can also search out the best AI vets in your area for either reg or inter-uterine AI. where they deposit the semen directly onto the eggs. So you can have the straws from the best stud in the world shipped. Do you have a close (within 6 hours) university with Vet school or Ag department, if so you should contact them and see what services they offer, sometimes you can save lots of money while getting the dogs the best care availble.
I would get my ducks in a row first, then move forward.
Good luck to you!


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## CottageLife (Jul 20, 2009)

mekasmom said:


> It is very doubtful that a GP from a shelter would be a good LGD. Pets are different than working dogs. The puppies this poster is having will be raised by working parents with livestock. They will be working dogs. Apples and Oranges.


Coming straight from a shelter you won't know what you're getting - I agree. But check out the Pyr rescues - http://mid-southpyreneesrescue.webs.com/ or http://www.nationalpyr.org/ or http://www.bigfluffydogs.com/ They have dogs in foster homes and many of them have farms so they can tell you if they have a dog who may be a good working dog. A lot of these dogs are from down south - people breeding their pyrs and then not actually putting the time in to train them properly or contain them, etc. I'm just saying it is an option.

Like another poster said, my other thought is it shows how many pyrs are out there before someone backyard breeds their dog (not saying that is the case here, as i don't know anything about the OP's pyr).


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## DenMacII (Aug 16, 2008)

Thanks everyone for the insight. 

We purchased our Pyr's from a working farm. They've been with our goats since they were pups, and have performed admirably. They've chased off coyotes, and sat quietly watching one of our does kid from a distance - flanked on both sides to protect her without disturbing her. Two months ago at night our neighbor lost a goat to a mountain lion in the pasture immediately next to where our goats and LGD's are kept - the lion chose the neighbor's livestock to our set up.

We would like to add to our LGD team since we now have buck goats in a different area of our farm, and we are looking to possibly move to a larger farm later this year. Several of our neighbors have watched how our Pyr's protect our livestock, and are interested in our pups to protect their livestock.

We prefer to raise our own animals. This is not something we would do for profit or folly. We did look at some of the rescue sites in California and they would not adopt a Pyr to a working ranch - even if the dog came from a working ranch! (that's a whole 'nother thread on these groups that are forcing Pyr's to be indoor pets that need to be walked several times a day). I absolutely appreciate the concern for where our pups might go, and we feel the same way - we want them in good homes working on farms or ranches. Our two are such a joy to watch.

Thanks again for all the input - there is a lot of great information that we can use as we move forward.


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## CottageLife (Jul 20, 2009)

DenMacII said:


> Thanks everyone for the insight.
> 
> We purchased our Pyr's from a working farm. They've been with our goats since they were pups, and have performed admirably. They've chased off coyotes, and sat quietly watching one of our does kid from a distance - flanked on both sides to protect her without disturbing her. Two months ago at night our neighbor lost a goat to a mountain lion in the pasture immediately next to where our goats and LGD's are kept - the lion chose the neighbor's livestock to our set up.
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking my posts of concern in the way I meant them. Good luck, and sounds like you have 2 great dogs.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Don't forget to get deposits from all those people who say they'd like a pup. If all goes according to your plan, your entire area would be protected from predators. You'd have the opportunity to bond the puppies to the animals they'd be protecting, and to cull out (pet homes) any puppies that may not have the instinct to be a good guard.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

It seems like you've answered the first of the list of questions that follow the "Do I breed?" thought.
Yes, my female is a good working dog, and does well what she was bred to do!
 Congrats!

But you still have to answer the other questions; 
Is she the the epitome of good health?
Get her to the vet for a hip check. Since she is a large breed, a heart check would be a good idea as well. Most Pyrs, even good, working ones, have passed by age 10, and it's generally because of the heart. The tiniest, mildest heart defect could cause her puppies to drop like flies years earlier then 10. Find out about other health concerns for the breed.
This will not only help you to get a better (or any, as opposed to giving them away) price for your puppies, but even if you're planning on keeping every one of them - do you want to put all the time and work and love and money into training a dog to find it dead in the field at 3 of a bad heart? Or crippled in the hips so they can't work?

Where the heck are ALL these pups going?
Ok, you want to keep 2. And your neighbor wants 2 - and keep in mind, folks who've gushed _for years_ about how bad they want a pup vanish like smoke when 10-weeks-old-come-get-him comes round, everyone who's ever had a litter even by accident has been burned that way.
That's 4. 
Pyrs are big dogs. She could have 14, easy. I've seen it happen. But plan on _at least_ 8. Maura is right. Get deposits and do it BEFORE she visits the stud dog.
That way even if folks vanish - and some still will - at least you've got a little cash to feed those big ol pups while you look for someone else!

Is the stud I'm thinking of every bit as good as my girl?
He better be. Actually, he should be even better. Because if he isn't, it doesn't matter how good she is. You can have the finest wine but if you throw a shot of swamp water into it it's worthless now.

And last, but VERY important - do I _really_ want to do this?
I've raised a litter of pups so please trust me when I say it is a PAIN in the rump. It is work, it is expensive, puppies are troublesome, and a whole litter of puppies is even more so. 
They WILL get out of the pen, they WILL destroy things and if you want to do it any kind of right, it WILL take up a HUGE chunk of your time. 
So you really, _really_ want to devote yourself to feeding and worming and socializing and training and cleaning and socializing and training some more (because let me tell you, if I was looking for an LGD and someone pulled this unhandled thing out of the pasture, I'd turn around and go home. - you'll need to safely introduce it to _*everything*_ and teaching them about leashes and collars wouldn't hurt) for six weeks???

Seriously, ask yourself, and then ask again.

And I don't say 6 weeks because they'll be gone by then, I say it because for the first month it's not too bad. They're cute and little and roll around and sleep all the time and Momma does most of the cleaning.
But the 6 weeks after that - Woooo boy!! Your life belongs to puppies! 
And that makes them a young 10 weeks when they go. Again, if I wanted an LGD, that's the earliest I would take one. I'd want Momma and just as important Momma's _flock_ teaching that pup what's what.
There are people who skip that step and those are the folks giving away pups in front of the sale barn. Don't believe them when they say raising pups is easy - what the heck do they know? If they knew anything, they wouldn't be standing outside the sale barn with a box of free puppies.

And speaking of Momma - just who is protecting her flock while she's heavily pregnant and raising the little guys? You are losing the use of your working dog for a good 3 months.

That last question is a doozy. And the reason why plenty of folks with really good working dogs are _more_ then happy to pay someone else for their next pup. To not lose all the other things you could be doing besides raising pups so that someone will actually want them, _and _losing your working dog at the same time - that's pretty big. 
So answer all the other questions and then think long and hard on that last one.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Maura has great advise. A friend if mine just had an oops litter of AKC registered Anatolian Shepherd Dogs. They are from working parents, very good genetics and it's cross proven to produce great working dogs. But she is seriously stressed because she now has 12 pups to line up buyers for.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I've been struggling with the same questions. I have a great Anatolian. She is 5 this year. We bred her once 2 years ago. Pups were not so hard to sell as finding a decent stud was. The stud I bred her to was nice, but no genetics testing. People around here just don't care about that kind of stuff. So I bought a pup from great lines, I was real happy with him. Intended to breed him to my female her next heat, and I was gonna get her daughters OFA done this spring when she is 2 and consider breeding her to. Well, we lost the male pup to Blasto last month..... and well frankly I had JUST gotten him past the chicken killing stage and I don't think I have it in me to do it again. I'm frustrated. I already know finding a decent stud anywhere close to local is next to impossible, and I just don't know that I think it's worth all the hassle. I have good dogs. I think I might just be happy with what I have.


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