# I was going to buy a berkey.. I was close.



## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Well I was going to by berkey water filters. Being that we would be on shallow well water in a SHTF situation it would be nice to have some unboiled water.


What I've found out is very disturbing. Berkey has released a bunch of faulty filters and they haven't informed their customers. The filters allow unfiltered water to leak at the filter/base interface. The issues are noted all over the net. So if you have purchased yours since 2010 or filter replacements since. Please check it before you need it. This is in fact a serious break in survival prep protocol. IMHO


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## Merit (Jul 15, 2009)

I believe I experienced this. The water was 'rushing' through to the lower chamber, and a green dye test obviously indicated there wasn't filtration. The company replaced the filters immediately and now I pass the dye test. 

I imagine we'll have to periodically dye-test it, as there is no warning bell sounding off when the filters fail due to natural end-of-life, or other.

I will say, since then I'm very conscious of how fragile the filters are, and treat them with exquisite care..


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Merit said:


> I believe I experienced this. The water was 'rushing' through to the lower chamber, and a green dye test obviously indicated there wasn't filtration. The company replaced the filters immediately and now I pass the dye test.
> 
> I imagine we'll have to periodically dye-test it, as there is no warning bell sounding off when the filters fail due to natural end-of-life, or other.
> 
> I will say, since then I'm very conscious of how fragile the filters are, and treat them with exquisite care..


Survival supplies should be resilient. Strong and durable. Not easily subject to simple breaking. Of design that they are fool proof. :whistlin:
If you really need them for a SHTF scenario. They will fail or you will break them. Murphy will show up. 

I'm looking into the original berkefeld or Doulton filters. The originals are a bit more sturdy and have proven themselves in 3rd world countries in actual practise.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

I was going to ask that myself - Berkey or Doulton? The seal at the bottom of the candles would be easy to fix.


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

I guess I'll have to do a dye test too. We are on creek water. This water is clean and clear, but like all surface water, there is a potential for Cryptosporidium and Giardia. So we have had blind faith in our shiny new Big Berkey!


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Harry Chickpea said:


> I was going to ask that myself - Berkey or Doulton? The seal at the bottom of the candles would be easy to fix.





Common Tator said:


> So we have had blind faith in our shiny new Big Berkey!




See the issue Harry?

You can't tell if it leaks just a bit. That is the big issue.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

I understand. However, review my various posts and see if I have "blind faith" in _ANYTHING_... (Sometimes, I wish I could. It is an incredible amount of added work and suris.)


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Harry Chickpea said:


> I understand. However, review my various posts and see if I have "blind faith" in _ANYTHING_... (Sometimes, I wish I could. It is an incredible amount of added work and suris.)


Don't think "I'm cutting you to the quik"...

I posted this because an awful lot of folks plan on getting their water from a setup using them.

They need alternative plans! It's not unlike finding all your wheat has bugs.. Check now before you need it.


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## calliemoonbeam (Aug 7, 2007)

Wow, I find that incredibly upsetting and sad. They were one of the few companies I had total faith in. If it's only since 2010, I guess I'm good. I ran into a heck of a deal on eBay a couple of years ago, and I probably have enough filters to last me the next 10 years, lol. But now that you've put the bug in my ear, I'll be forced to dye test, just to be sure, lol. Off to read up on this...

P.S. I think I'll send Berkey an e-mail, and I think everyone else should too, show them that customer support can make or break them. Just look at Netflix, ROFL!


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Used to drink that stuff (Strawberry Quik - the chocolate was ehhh.)  Understand the concern, and you are good to point it out. 

Alternative plans: Plumbers putty, epoxy, even plaster of paris. Important issue, but _easily_ fixed.


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## Merit (Jul 15, 2009)

See, that's been the bane of my existence too...the fact that these things can fail on you (or just reach the end of their natural lifetime) without notice.

Is there a portable filtration system out there that filters 'warn' you they are functioning below standard? If so, darn. I would have considered that one strongly. But if not, then you're not necessarily creating a foolproof system. Berkey itself suggests you simply estimate your usage and tally it, replacing filters when you've hit your estimated tally point. Scary to think we'd trust our very lives on filters that secretly stop filtering. Too bad they don't have a "low gas/oil indicator", telling us low filtration capability...

As an aside, the included Berkey "sport" waterbottle filtration seemed pretty durable...

P.S. Harry, I couldn't decide either so I did both! Berkey filter casing with both berkey candles and Doulton sterysil candles too! (the doultons were steeply discounted on ebay a few months ago.)


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## calliemoonbeam (Aug 7, 2007)

Yeah, I have a Royal Berkey, a Go Berkey and two Berkey sports, as well as both the Berkey black filters and Doulton ceramic filters and extra parts for all of them. I thought I was pretty well set, with backups for my backups, lol. Now I have to worry about them, I just hate that!  Oh yeah, and I also have a shower Berkey. Can you tell I liked the product and service??

P.S. I've had my Sport Berkeys for almost three years, and they go everywhere with me. I even forgot and left one in the truck last winter and it froze solid! But after it thawed out, it was still working fine...as far as I know, lol.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

For the price i thought it was too much of a gamble, to much of the stuff we buy any more is like tossing your money into the wind.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

SquashNut said:


> For the price i thought it was too much of a gamble, to much of the stuff we buy any more is like tossing your money into the wind.




That is why I've been holding off myself. It would be nice to have something to filter tho.


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## oth47 (Jan 11, 2008)

I got a set of the bad filters,they were replaced with no problems.My preps now include food grade silicone to repair the filters if the seal ever breaks.You can get the silicone on ebay,just make sure it says food grade.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

oth47 said:


> I got a set of the bad filters,they were replaced with no problems.My preps now include food grade silicone to repair the filters if the seal ever breaks.You can get the silicone on ebay,just make sure it says food grade.


Just make sure it's filtering. Every batch. Dysentery can creep..

Then explode. :yuck:


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## calliemoonbeam (Aug 7, 2007)

oth47 said:


> I got a set of the bad filters,they were replaced with no problems.My preps now include food grade silicone to repair the filters if the seal ever breaks.You can get the silicone on ebay,just make sure it says food grade.


Well, I don't know if this will upset your plans, but I mentioned using food grade silicone to patch a food processor part that had cracked a while back and was told that it's not safe to use where food will be in constant contact with it. Since I don't know exactly what the probem is, I don't even know if it applies, but here's a link to the discussion:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=405760&highlight=food+grade+silicone

From what she said, I figured it was okay for my use since I was just running the food through real quick, but not for something that was going to be touching it all the time. The discussion centered around whether it was okay to restore a crock for pickling where the water/brine would be in constant contact. So judge for yourself if you think it's okay. Hope this helps.


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## beachcomber (Dec 2, 2008)

the berkey dye test should be done with red, not green color


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## mypatriotsupply (Jan 21, 2009)

It is true that a bad batch of filters made it into circulation, but it was quickly caught and fixed. The bad units that did make it out of the factory should be out of circulation by this point, and Berkey is phenomenal at taking care of their customers. I still have faith in the Berkey line of products because I know that in a manufacturing process occasionally things like this are bound to happen, regardless of the company. What speaks to me is how they have handled it, which has been very well. For those few customers that were effected they had a quick, easy no hassle exchange of the faulty filters, and they even cover the shipping costs - so no money out of the customers pocket to get the bad filters replaced. 

We've sold more Berkeys than I can count this year, and only have heard of one report of one of our customers ending up with the bad filters and that was earlier in the year before most of the ones from that batch had been caught and pulled from circulation.

I use two Berkeys daily, the Berkey Light in my office and the Big Berkey on my kitchen counter at home - and I am still in love with their product, and as long as I still believe in the product I will continue to carry it.


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

mypatriotsupply said:


> It is true that a bad batch of filters made it into circulation, but it was quickly caught and fixed. The bad units that did make it out of the factory should be out of circulation by this point, and Berkey is phenomenal at taking care of their customers. I still have faith in the Berkey line of products because I know that in a manufacturing process occasionally things like this are bound to happen, regardless of the company. What speaks to me is how they have handled it, which has been very well. For those few customers that were effected they had a quick, easy no hassle exchange of the faulty filters, and they even cover the shipping costs - so no money out of the customers pocket to get the bad filters replaced.
> 
> We've sold more Berkeys than I can count this year, and only have heard of one report of one of our customers ending up with the bad filters and that was earlier in the year before most of the ones from that batch had been caught and pulled from circulation.
> 
> I use two Berkeys daily, the Berkey Light in my office and the Big Berkey on my kitchen counter at home - and I am still in love with their product, and as long as I still believe in the product I will continue to carry it.


Thank you for the information.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

mypatriotsupply said:


> It is true that a bad batch of filters made it into circulation, but it was quickly caught and fixed. The bad units that did make it out of the factory should be out of circulation by this point, and Berkey is phenomenal at taking care of their customers. I still have faith in the Berkey line of products because I know that in a manufacturing process occasionally things like this are bound to happen, regardless of the company. What speaks to me is how they have handled it, which has been very well. For those few customers that were effected they had a quick, easy no hassle exchange of the faulty filters, and they even cover the shipping costs - so no money out of the customers pocket to get the bad filters replaced.
> 
> We've sold more Berkeys than I can count this year, and only have heard of one report of one of our customers ending up with the bad filters and that was earlier in the year before most of the ones from that batch had been caught and pulled from circulation.
> 
> I use two Berkeys daily, the Berkey Light in my office and the Big Berkey on my kitchen counter at home - and I am still in love with their product, and as long as I still believe in the product I will continue to carry it.


How many of your customers put them in storage like your seeds? Most no?
So most didn't utilise them at all. They don't know they are crap. Did you send a mass mailer? They are a sitting time bomb. IMHO


P.S.

Get additional things and I will buy from you. Would love to support a donor to this great forum.

Bought this week.... And I do often. 

A kelly kettel
Freeze dried foods.
72 hour bars
Iodine water tablets.
--------------------------------------------------
I will be buying KI in the next weeks. Did you see Russia's chutzpah? I see you have it. Run a special. Or Amazon is 120 pills for the same cash. Prime... free shipping in two days. 


Serve us... We will support you!


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## mypatriotsupply (Jan 21, 2009)

stanb999 said:


> How many of your customers put them in storage like your seeds? Most no?
> So most didn't utilise them at all. They don't know they are crap. Did you send a mass mailer? They are a sitting time bomb. IMHO
> 
> 
> ...



The majority of the customers I've talked to who purchase a Berkey do actually utilize it. Putting a Berkey into storage is something you see more with folks who already have one, and are getting a backup unit or extra replacement filters. 

With our seeds I've figured it out to be about 50% go into the ground within the first year and 50% are just purchased for storage.

I absolutely did not send out a mass mailing, I looked back through my orders that were processed before the bad batch was intercepted and picked up the phone and called the folks I needed to call. 

That said, even though there was a bad batch does not mean all of them were bad. Like I said, for that time frame I only ended up with one customer who had that issue.

I absolutely appreciate the point of view that items being purchased for survival and preparedness need to work when the time comes to use them. In fact, I agree 150%. That is why I think it very important (from a survival aspect) to familiarize yourself with, and frequently test your equipment - regardless of what that equipment might be. If we could depend on systems functioning as they are supposed to at all times, it would drastically cut down the need to practice any form of preparedness. 

When mistakes are made it comes down to a few things in my mind...was the company sloppy or do they have a really bad quality control process? Or was it an honest mistake that they are eager to make right?


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

"So most didn't utilise them at all. They don't know they are crap. Did you send a mass mailer? They are a sitting time bomb. IMHO"

You are using inflammatory rhetoric there, and that bothers me.

MOST??? Really? How do you know? Are you a super-being? If so, please tell us more. Unless you are privy to PS books, you are talking out of your hat.

Crap. I see your crap and raise you one BS. One batch had a problem. Do you know how many are in that batch? Do you know how many PS has sold? I almost thought you were from LaLa land or Berkley for a moment there.

Mass mailer? From a supplier and not the company that makes it? And without your knowing if there have been shipment tracking recalls? Why not just warn EVERYONE, that somewhere, at some point in time, something bad happened to apple pie and the U.S. and ALL apple pie needs to be recalled? A targeted mailing, would have been a reasonable request. MASS mailing along with the other BS in you post makes you sound like an alarmist. There are enough of those around.

Sitting on a time bomb. You did put "In my HUMBLE opinion" after that, so I won't be reactive to that line.

I'm perfectly capable of ratcheting up extremist and inflammatory rhetoric to levels that _no one _can stand. I'd rather not, and I often enjoy your posts. I think you were punitive and unfair to PS and I don't want to be that way to you. Care to comment?


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Harry Chickpea said:


> "So most didn't utilise them at all. They don't know they are crap. Did you send a mass mailer? They are a sitting time bomb. IMHO"
> 
> You are using inflammatory rhetoric there, and that bothers me.
> 
> ...



BTY. This is a product that is a knock off of the real deal (they copied the sound of the name). They copied the original sort of. They advertise this as being better than the original. They say it will filter out chemicals, bacteria, and virus... They say it. Not me. If it has a tiny leak at the base where this issue is. It may not fall off. But will it have a hole larger than .02 micron? What the heck do I know? If half the base isn't glued as has been posed many times I'd suggest the void it has is much larger than this. .02 micron is tiny.

To give you and example.. Countering the add dye to check...

If I sold you an all weather fire starter in early 2011. I advertised it as a top shelf item. Best of the best. I charge 30-50 % more than the competition. But due to my good reputation and the fact that you need it to work in all conditions. You buy it. SHTF in 2013, You just spent the last week hiking. You've finally made it to your BOL. A snow storm has started outside your remote cabin. You have your tinder and kindling dry. You have your wood stacked high. Your looking forward to a hot bowl of warm stew. Those preps you spent a little too much out of your budget for. You sacrificed. You dealt with the nay sayers. Your content with your decisions..... Then you find out. The "all weather" fire starter I sold you just doesn't work as intended. It only works on warm sunny days when a fire isn't needed.... It simply doesn't work in the cold.

Kinda the same situation no? It doesn't work as a bacteria filter. If it has a failure in the seal, Period. What's worse is you wouldn't know about it. You would think all is well.


As to the posting from our sponsor. Whom I do appreciate very much.
People don't actually get sick if they drink a bit of chlorine, fluoride, or city water..

Ditch water can taste fine and be deadly.



P.S. Sorry you took my posting the way you did. I'm ----ed at the fact that these were consider top shelf, with a price to match. If they were cheap knock off's or flavour filters so common today, I could care less. These are billed as the real deal.


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## mypatriotsupply (Jan 21, 2009)

I wouldn't consider that the same kind of situation, and of course I'm just speaking personally here. Every good preparedness bloke realizes the need to have a minimum of 2-3 ways to start a fire on them at all times. 

People don't typically have the resources to have multiple water filtration devices, although having backups to your backups is always the preferred method, in my opinion.

I've reviewed many different filtration products, and by no means do I consider myself an expert - but I have found repeatedly that the Berkey products outperform all of the competition in the same field. I'm sure there are units out there that are thousands of dollars that maybe would outperform a Berkey, but how many people would be able to afford them?

I guess I should say that I in no way speak for New Millennium Concepts, just my own opinions here..

I understand being upset if you feel you got a raw deal (if you had purchased a unit that ended up having a bad batch of filters) but from what I've gathered you haven't purchased one - so your feedback on the product is limited, by my estimation. 

Not saying you don't bring valid concerns to the table, just not sure I understand where the passionate declaration is coming from, as if you had just narrowly escaped "being had". 

This is where education comes into play. It is never just enough that a person buy a product to place on the shelf and consider it an insurance policy. Those that do are simply trying to throw money at something in hopes that it will protect them in the future.

In my opinion, preparedness is about not only having the tools you need to do the job, but being familiar with those tools and using and testing them often to make sure your equipment is functioning. I'm not going to go jump out of a plane (not that I would ever do that anyway) without checking my parachute first. Doesn't matter that its brand new out of the box and supposedly the top of the line brand - I'm going to check and recheck it before I entrust my life to it. 

Same with preparedness products - especially with something as vital as water. I would never buy a unit just to put in a closet, and fortunately I don't think (from having talked to many of them) that my customers do either. 

The only issue that might arise here is people do sometimes buy extra sets of filters to put into storage..but the chances are very high that if your included set of filters is not from the defective batch, your replacements wont be either. 

All I can say is that it has impacted very few people (regardless of how many people you see online, people typically are more apt to post when something does not work as its supposed to than to post when it works as expected), the bad filters were pulled from circulation quite a while ago, and I'll still place my bets for water filtration with the multiple Berkey units I have.

If you would rather put your investment into another kind of filtration device, there is absolutely no problem with that - you are prepping, and my hat is tipped to you because you obviously have the foresight to see the reasons behind needing to prep. So you're already a step ahead of X percentage of the population. 

I hope you find a good system that works for your needs, and wish you the best of luck!


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

:cowboy:


mypatriotsupply said:


> I wouldn't consider that the same kind of situation, and of course I'm just speaking personally here. Every good preparedness bloke realizes the need to have a minimum of 2-3 ways to start a fire on them at all times.
> 
> People don't typically have the resources to have multiple water filtration devices, although having backups to your backups is always the preferred method, in my opinion.
> 
> ...


I will let your posting stand... Except for these two Items...

I don't have an ax to grind. I do know that a bunch of these fine folks... My HT family! Have bought them and will be expecting them to work to the fullest. When the times are desperate. The alternative uses aren't this forum IMHO. We are a frugal rather practical bunch. Or differently a 72 hour kit is for the sheep on the way to the fema camp. We don't plan on going. 

I will be buying an original British Berkefeld. They are proven over and over in real life situations. They are made for use in the bush! They are sturdy and hold up to use.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I ended up with the bad filters. One simply broke off. Yes, it scared the crap out of me. But no item is perfect. I called the company and they replaced them without hesitation. They also replaced my extras. You cant really ask for much more. They replaced them immediately. No body died, whew.


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## Merit (Jul 15, 2009)

For clarification purposes, do you mind succinctly laying out the salient comparision points of the Berkey vs the British Berkefeld? Solely for educational purposes.

If I'm following correctly, I'm hearing that you consider the Berkefeld to have a more reliable filter and a lower price point than the Berkey. As well you feel the reputation/morality of the Berkefeld company is preferable to that of the Berkey.

You've expanded on the reputation/morality issue, as well as the reliability issue. Do you mind touching on the price point favorability also? 

Have I accurately captured the salient points? 

Lastly, my personal concern revolves around the lack of knowing when filters have ceased functioning. Is there any filtration system (comparable) which can adequately address this in a more automatic fashion than dye testing?

Thanks! Education shared is wonderful.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

_Awright_, I had to go back and review my info from a few years back, and then see what is being advertised now. We bought from James Filters, and we bought the Big Berkey container and the Doulton white candles (the ones used by the International Red Cross). I remember doing the research at the time, and recognizing that the claims for the black filters were less than credible. So apparently what we have here is a mixed system (fine by me).

Briefly - 
The black candles being sold never provided any indication of any different basic process. There was a claim of removing more of certain contaminants, but no data comparing results over time. There WAS some spin and clever placement of wording I didn't care for.

The black candles don't, to my knowledge have any silver impregnated into the matrix.

My _impression_ (and this is just an impression because I could not find reliable cites) was that the black filters contained more charcoal/activated carbon/whatever you want to call it, somehow mixed into the ceramic matrix, possibly along with some other mineral or colorant, thus making it black.

I've dealt with charcoal filters before many times, and found that after about three months, they developed significant bacterial issues with 5 micron filtered water. This goes for both block and granular filters from various makers, and spans a period of years.

The white candles have the charcoal only in the interior, after a 1 micron filtration, and the possible benefit of the silver impregnation.

It simply was no contest for me.
1. Red Cross use and approval
2. No charcoal where it would come in contact with unfiltered water
3. Possibility of some anti-bacterial effect from the silver
4. Longer candle life
5. The ability to boil candles to kill any possible organisms and somewhat recharge the charcoal (The more volatile chemicals _do_ boil out; the interiors will release more bubbles into a pot of slowly boiling water than can be accounted for by trapped air.)
6. Doulton has been around for ages.

To me, the black version was more about marketing than practicality. A one micron filtration, and a post filtration of activated carbon is far better than well water, and without excess processing chemicals, better than many municipal systems.

IF there had been real data, real construction details on the blacks, then _MAYBE_ I would have gone that way. I took the old, proven, tested, and institutionally approved candles.

Are the differences that I found significant enough for me to warn people away from the blacks? No. The fact that there was a bad batch of the blacks still doesn't make me say any more than there was a bad batch. Hype aside, properly functioning filters of both type will do remarkably similar jobs.

I've told y'all before, I think different. I _can_ get the wool pulled over my eyes from time to time, but not often.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Are there any IDs on the boxes of filters that allow a person to check to see if their filters are part of this "bad batch?"


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## mypatriotsupply (Jan 21, 2009)

Unfortunately there is not, the only way we can track this is by retailers knowing which lot is coming from the manufacturer. I agree that there should be a lot number on the filter boxes.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

THe boxes do seem to have a date on them. Would that give a person an idea of which is which?


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## mypatriotsupply (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm not sure if this is the date the box was manufactured - as a lot of box makers put a date stamp on them - or the date the actual product was manufactured. I'll check into this and let you know what I find out.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Thank you.


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## Merit (Jul 15, 2009)

Harry, thanks so much for sharing your research & views!! Hope it was a good Thanksgiving... (At least I can rest assured your water was delish! hee! hee!)

-Merit


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## CottageLife (Jul 20, 2009)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> I ended up with the bad filters. One simply broke off. Yes, it scared the crap out of me. But no item is perfect. I called the company and they replaced them without hesitation. They also replaced my extras. You cant really ask for much more. They replaced them immediately. No body died, whew.


I had the same experience - I had 2 filters in my Berkey, both broke off at the base months after I got them. I called and they replaced the 2 broken and my 2 in storage. Great customer service!


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

To those of you who had problems with the filters- when did you purchase them?


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

Is there a dye kit out there to periodically test the filters?

Or can I just use red or green food coloring?

If water were REALLY questionable, I'd put a drop or two of chlorine in the either chamber to take care of bacteria and let the filters handle chemical impurities.


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## mypatriotsupply (Jan 21, 2009)

Red food coloring works just fine


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

I just wanted to say having a Berkey saved our skin. We lived in a home with well water that was FULL of bacteria ect. for 3 years because we didn't have a choice but to live there. The Berkey made it so we could drink that water and let our dc drink that water safely. we've had ours and are on our 2nd set of filters (faily of 10 using it for all our water for drinking and we weven used to have to use it for the goats ect!!) since we got the Berkey years back. It has been awesome!!! 

We didn't know about MPS when we ordered ours years back so we didn't get it there but I KNOW that if someone was to get anything from MPS that wasn't satisfactory it would be made right one way or another. 

I think we it is our personal responsability to our families and selves to do a test run of ANY prep item. We should be checking EVERY item possible out that we can bfore we need it anyway, Right?

we use the red food coloring Billhoo


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## ne prairiemama (Jan 30, 2010)

I forgot to say though thank you stanb for the information. It IS important to know when something is wrong!!!


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## Catshooter (May 11, 2009)

This thread reminded me that it was time to test my filters. Zero red food coloring came out so I'm good to go. Love my Berky.


Cat


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## wildcat6 (Apr 5, 2011)

What exactly is the difference between the black and the white (British) filters?


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## bbbuddy (Jul 29, 2002)

Sayer makes water filters that are based on dialysis technology, and guaranteed to filter 1 million gallons, for $50 to about $100....

http://www.sawyer.com/water.htm
"The Sawyer Biological Filter removes 7 log (99.99999%) of all bacteria like salmonella, cholera, and E. coli. And 6 log (99.9999%) of all Protozoa such as Giardia and Cryptosporidium. You will find these removal rates to equal or exceed competitive options. Therefore Sawyer offers the highest level of filtration available.

The Sawyer Water Purifier offers the same level of protection against bacteria and protozoa and is the first (and thus far only) portable filtration device to remove viruses mechanically. It does so at a 5.5 log (99.9997%) rate, exceeding EPA and NSF recommendations.

This filter does not remove dissolved solids, including chemicals and heavy metals."


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## wildcat6 (Apr 5, 2011)

wildcat6 said:


> What exactly is the difference between the black and the white (British) filters?


Anyone have any idea what the difference is?


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Functionally, there is very little difference after use for a few months, not enough to be concerned about. Dialysis is much more exacting.

The basic concepts are important to keep in mind. Our bodies, in decent condition, were designed to drink water that was full of pathogens, and eat foods that were coated in dirt and all sorts of nasties.

One micron filtration will filter out the common disease organisms and spores that cause intestinal illnesses. Filtering out anything smaller serves little added purpose, and can cause the filter to clog faster. If you are running a power turbine at Hoover dam, you don't want logs floating in, but the filtering is minimal. Filtering all the sand in the Colorado might make turbines last a little longer, but not much. The same goes with the body.

Once you have water and food in you, it hits the stomach and gets acidified to kill more organisms, then gets turned alkaline, killing more, and then it has to permeate the walls of the intestine, which form yet another filter.

In dialysis, none of that happens, so the filter has to be super-good.

There is simply no way that the activated carbon in any of these filters is 100% effective after a few months of use. That isn't the way carbon filtration works. The carbon eventually gets "used" or "saturated" or otherwise rendered inactive.

A black filter with more carbon and a smaller pore size will work more effectively at first, but over time will do less.

Using a replaceable carbon block post filter would be a way around it, but since it isn't a real issue anyway, why bother?


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## Merit (Jul 15, 2009)

That was an interesting read, Harry. Sort of a nice little Ah-Ha moment. Thx for taking the time.


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

I finally got around to testing mine. Pink water was pouring through one of the filters rather quickly. Hubby tried tightening it up, and we did the test again. Same thing. This means that we have been drinking unfiltered creek water, believing it was purified water.

Now we are back to using our PUR countertop water filter, that served us so well for 11 years. And it only cost $35.

I'm really disappointed in Berkey. We paid an arm and a leg for the thing thinking it was the best, and we could scrub and re-use the filters. The first I heard about defective filters wasn't from Berkey. It was here on HT.


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## AR Aaron (May 26, 2010)

Common Tator said:


> I finally got around to testing mine. Pink water was pouring through one of the filters rather quickly. Hubby tried tightening it up, and we did the test again. Same thing. This means that we have been drinking unfiltered creek water, believing it was purified water.
> 
> Now we are back to using our PUR countertop water filter, that served us so well for 11 years. And it only cost $35.
> 
> I'm really disappointed in Berkey. We paid an arm and a leg for the thing thinking it was the best, and we could scrub and re-use the filters. The first I heard about defective filters wasn't from Berkey. It was here on HT.


Call them and see if they will warranty replace it. Or maybe if you only have to pay shipping there or something. Be curious to see what they do. Let us know. I have been considering getting one, and this would help make my choice as well as others here I am sure.


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

I left them a message, and I'll be calling them back on Monday. I'll let the folks here know how they handle it.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Common Tator said:


> I finally got around to testing mine. Pink water was pouring through one of the filters rather quickly. Hubby tried tightening it up, and we did the test again. Same thing. This means that we have been drinking unfiltered creek water, believing it was purified water.
> 
> Now we are back to using our PUR countertop water filter, that served us so well for 11 years. And it only cost $35.
> 
> I'm really disappointed in Berkey. We paid an arm and a leg for the thing thinking it was the best, and we could scrub and re-use the filters. The first I heard about defective filters wasn't from Berkey. It was here on HT.


Meh. Looks like some of their hype has come back to bite them.

This is another case where I think differently. I can't give an exact answer as to what is going on (my chemistry skills are way too rusty), but I think I can show you the logic and a possibility without your eyes glazing over.

When a company wants to promote a product, they are highly selective in what they say AND what they DON'T say. They also attempt to put the product in the best possible light against competitors. That is all normal and above board. Another thing that companies will do is take advantage of general perceptions of the public, and use irrelevant smoke and mirrors. The goal is to make the product into a "bright shiney object" that can't be resisted. It isn't illegal, it often isn't harmful, but for a few of us it leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

In foods, many of us are now aware that "natural flavorings" covers a whole host of items, some of which may not be beneficial to us. In some other products, the use of the work "proprietary" should send up a small warning flag. I have software that uses proprietary code I developed. It is proprietary to keep others from ripping me off. I never let anyone see that source code. Berkey may be doing something similar with the black filters. However, I don't put my software in my mouth after it has gone through my program. Berkey has us putting processed water in our mouths after going through their proprietary matrix. We need to TRUST that the water is fine.

The goal of the company is to sell the product. To make that happen, it has to create an atmosphere of trust and safety and give the PERCEPTION that it can be tested at home.

What I do almost automatically is de-construct claims to get to underlying facts. I do it with politics, religion, and product claims. Of the three, product claims are usually the easiest.

Berkey is very specific that the dye test is to be performed with the RED food coloring dye. Dyes are pretty small molecules, and I would suspect that some will flow through any filter pretty easily, so I had to ask myself "WHY red dye? Why not blue or some other color?"

Certainly, any filter with a gaping hole will have the easily seen red dye go through the hole and show up in the processed water. But what about that "pink" water when there are no visible cracks?

I suspect (but cannot prove) that the red dye test was originally thought up as a safe and easy way to tell if parts of the matrix in the black filter were exhausted, and it was pressed into service when the cracking issue was uncovered. Red food dye won't kill you, is quite visible, and is easily available to users at no additional cost to the company.

Soooo... what IS red food dye? The chemical formula for red dye #40 is C18H14N2Na20BS2 - A Carbon Hydrogen Nitrogen Sodium Boron Sulfur based molecule. Although not highly reactive, in order to disperse evenly in liquids it has to have little weak attachment points where water and other stuff can glom on to it to keep it from clumping together. (BAD science, but overall correct concept)

What is different between black and white filters? 

The Black Purification Elements are a newer proprietary technology, that also treat and remove most contaminants to undetectable levels. The elements are composed of a formulation of more than a half dozen different media types constructed into a very fine matrix creating millions of micro-fine pores. The pores are so small that pathogenic bacteria, cysts, parasites, sediment and other contaminants are not able to pass through them. The media formulation both "absorbs" some contaminates and "adsorbs" other contaminates. Next, heavy metals ions (mineral molecules) are extracted through an Ion exchange process where they are essentially electrically bonded to the media. 

Ion exchange... hmmm... perhaps that provides a clue, and it clicks with some of the vast amount of trivia knowledge I store in my head...

I can't guarantee it, but I _suspect_ one of the components in the black matrix is... aluminum sulphate. The red dye may show an affinity for that, and as long as the filter continues to contain a small amount of active aluminum sulphate, and some active charcoal filtration, it is considered working. Here, you need an outside source to learn about aluminum sulphate:
http://www.purewaterproducts.com/aluminum.htm

Now, if we go back to marketing, just the word "aluminum" in relation to water is going to be perceived as a HUGE negative, especially if they are afraid of Alzheimer's disease. Even though aluminum sulfate is effective, covering up the use of it through "proprietary media" makes marketing sense.

Is the filter REALLY used up when it fails the red dye test? I suppose if you don't want any traces of red dye, yes. From a _practical_ level, the filter may still be filtering out the giardia and other nasties simply from the porous ceramic sheath. However, at that point the company can no longer guarantee the safety AND it gets a chance to sell a replacement filter.

Is that evil or bad? Not really. Your brake pads have squealers that make you change brake pads long before you need to. Most people understand that it is a safety issue. If the red dye test squealer takes some filters out of use early, that is no different.

I will say that the Berkey FAQ that covers distilled water is egregiously false, irritatingly so to me. Based on that alone, if the makers of the black filters were to claim the sky was blue, I would look up to verify it for myself.

All of this stuff and nonsense is a large part of why I went with the Doulton filters.

BTW, they say the filter is "...more than a half dozen different media types constructed into a very fine matrix..."

Funny, funny, marketing speek. More than half-a-dozen means seven. Of those, we can now be pretty sure of porous fired ceramic clay, charcoal, aluminum sulfate, possibly trace amounts of silver, and because of the wording (fine has multiple definitions) possibly a polyester sponge or cotton wool. 


OK, enough on this for a while. Time to move on.


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## Wildwood (Jul 2, 2007)

I started using my Berkey five years ago and my first set of black filters was not perfect. The threaded part on one was not straight and the filter set in at an angle so that you could only tighten it down so far before you got the popping sound indicating that you were stripping threads. Still it worked ok and passed the dye test so I put up with it...shouldn't have. The filters did a great job and lasted three years before they slowed down so much that I had to replace them. I'm two years in on my second set. They seem to be a little better fitting and haven't slowed down quite as much as the first set had at two years but they are getting slower.

I have another set of the black filters but I'm strongly considering getting the ceramics to replace the set I'm using now when they need replaced. I'd like to try them and see if they are any better made or more durable because the blacks are fragile. Still, they've done a great job but I handle them with kid gloves.


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## anniew (Dec 12, 2002)

I appreciate all of this thread. I, for one, have had a Berkey for years and it IS sitting in a closet and has never been used...so this thread gives me a push to check it out and test it. Thanks.


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

Ok, I called Berkey. They sent me to www.berkeywater.com and told me to click on the FAQ link. They then said to click on the replacement filter link on the left hand column. They said to fill out the form, and send in my defective filter and they will replace them. 

I need to test ALL of my filters. We bought a bunch at once. I was worried about testing my storage filters, and then putting wet filters back into storage to grow mold, but apparently they completely dry out in 5 days. So, I'll be filling out the form and sending in the bad ones after I go to the ranch next and can bring them back to the house in the burbs to be primed with chlorinated water, not creek water. Then I'll do something to set the good ones upright in a strainer for a few days to dry out before they go back into storage.

Ok, here is a source of confusion. In this thread, there is mention of a 'bad batch' of filters. Today, the young woman I spoke with said that "fewer than 5% of the filters are defective". If she is correct, than it isn't a bad batch issue, but an ongoing one, and every filter should be tested.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

What a disappointing pain in the rear. To test, each filter must be primed and put into the Berkey and dye tested. And it only costs hundreds of dollar to have bought a ticket for this ride.
Makes me want to take a sample of treated water and send it to the lab.


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

I should get my 'purified water' tested too. And you're right. This was a very costly experiment, only we thought we were buying a sure thing. And, I'm having a hard time with the idea that they knew they had this problem, and continued selling, without notifying their customers. The young lady I spoke with today didn't seem concerned when I told her that because of their error, we have been drinking unfiltered creek water for months, thinking it was purified by the best filter on the market.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I finally decided to do the dye test too. I put red food coloring in the top part and was relieved to find that it did not come out red. 
But then I took a glass out to the light and saw there was a very, very faint pink blush- just a faint hint of pink if you looked at the reflected light through the glass.
I wonder if this means anything is wrong. 
I guess because of the glowing comments I have read, I blythly took them at their word that they were the best. Naive of me. 
Makes me wonder about the "refusal to sell to people in California" thing- they said on their site it was due to California's inconsistant rules but I wonder if it simply failed.
The person who sold the set up to me did say in an email that it was right to be concerned but said all questions need to go to the company. I feel this is not good for trust.


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## Jerngen (May 22, 2006)

Now I am confused as to what I should be buying for our water purification needs.


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## Smalltowngirl (Mar 28, 2010)

where I want to said:


> I guess because of the glowing comments I have read, I blythly took them at their word that they were the best. Naive of me.
> Makes me wonder about the "refusal to sell to people in California" thing- they said on their site it was due to California's inconsistant rules but I wonder if it simply failed.


It's just not California but Iowa also! Iowa isn't exactly considered a hot bed of odd/inconsistent rules so now I'm really hesitating in buying a Berkey.
I was saving up for one & found it couldn't be sent to Iowa but since I have friends in MO & IL, I figured I'd have it shipped to them.

Now I'm going to just keep saving & researching. :hrm:

From their website:


The manufacturer, New Millennium Concepts, Ltd., warrants this product to be free from defects in materials and workmanship for a period of 6 months from date of purchase. Black Berkey purification elements have a two-year prorated warranty calculated in six months intervals. New Millennium Concepts, Ltd. will replace or repair any product that it deems is not properly functioning during the stated warranty period.

** Free UPS Ground Shipping to the lower 48 states. Does not ship to California or Iowa.


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

where I want to said:


> I finally decided to do the dye test too. I put red food coloring in the top part and was relieved to find that it did not come out red.
> But then I took a glass out to the light and saw there was a very, very faint pink blush- just a faint hint of pink if you looked at the reflected light through the glass.
> I wonder if this means anything is wrong.
> I guess because of the glowing comments I have read, I blythly took them at their word that they were the best. Naive of me.
> ...


Sounds like you have a small leak in one or more of your filters.

And this is what is so upsetting. All their wonderful technology that makes their filters superior, (or so they say) isn't worth a hoot, if they don't properly glue the filter to it's plastic base. If water can flow past the filter, rather than through it, the filter is worthless.

Edited to add, I've read too many accounts now, of people having defective filters, sending them back and getting defective replacement filters. I'll be sending back my defective filters. Before I even test the replacements, I think I'll run a bead of food grade silicone caulk around the plastic base, making sure it makes contact to the filter and the plastic base completely around the circumference of the plastic base. I trust my own gluing skills more than the pros at Berkey.

This is the food grade silicone caulk I ordered. http://www.ebay.com/itm/290432825391?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649


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## mypatriotsupply (Jan 21, 2009)

Unfortunately this thread has brought me great sadness. I'll be calling the manufacturer today to see if the reported problems with the filters was indeed a one batch screw up, or "less than 5%" as someone on here had indicated. I've been a big believer in the Berkey product for years. Every test I have done on a unit has tested fine. Of course I've only tested maybe half a dozen maybe over the past year. The one I pulled from the same inventory I ship to my customers to put in my new office works just fine. The one I've had on my kitchen counter at home for years works just fine. But there is just too many reports out there and I need to get some clarification on some things. If I'm not satisfied afterwards I will begin searching for a better product to offer my customers. But until I complete my own investigation I won't make any changes. I still get an overwhelmingly positive response from people who have purchased a Berkey that makes the amount of people that have had problems seem very small. But I'm not happy. I expect it to work for everyone, and if I've sold someone something that doesn't work properly it makes me feel terrible. 

Off to do some more in depth investigation into this.


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

Mypatriotsupply, I don't think anyone is mad at suppliers of the Berkey products. I know I'm not. It is Berkey themselves who have violated our trust. Why aren't they testing their own filters as a quality control measure? Especially after they became aware of the issue, it seems the bare minimum they could do to protect their customers and their good name.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

It's the lack of information that makes the situation so bad. The supplier (not Patriot Supply) says the company needs to be called but the company's response is test and exchange but no real explanation as to what has happened and if it resolved. 
I would like to have trust in such an important matter as, like Common Tator, my water comes from a creek.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I was hoping that some more information to be shared. Anyone heard how bad the problem is? Whether it is continuing?


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## mypatriotsupply (Jan 21, 2009)

Its been rather slow collecting the information I need due to the holiday, but I'm on it, as are some other people I know. Will post updates when I have them.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

mypatriotsupply said:


> Its been rather slow collecting the information I need due to the holiday, but I'm on it, as are some other people I know. Will post updates when I have them.


Know one here thinks the issue is you or any of the other suppliers. 

Good luck on your fact finding mission!


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Thank you


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

I too want to thank you My Patriot Supply!


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## kan-green (Oct 20, 2010)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_water_purification

Here is a good breakdown of different methods of making water safe for consumption. I have yet to purchase a Berkley or like system because of concerns like those raised by the previous posters.

Consider this, only a certain percentage of the population who have purchased a Berkley are like minded and visit much less post on this site. Take the number of people here who have tested their filters and had a negative result (red or pink dye) appear in their "treated" water, multiply by the unknown number of those who do not visit this site and may not even be aware of the problems with the batch or 5% or whatever the number of bad filters is. The answer is too large for me to rely solely on one method of rendering water safe for my family.

Thankfully most of us have water from the tap that is perfectly safe to use. We have time to prepare, become educated, formulate a plan, and to obtain the items we need to make water safe. The only problem is that we are running out of time. The probability of something happening is greater now. I would suggest that you educate yourselves now, print the information off and place it into a binder, and come up with a system that will work for you.

Personally I prefer to educate myself so that I know the information is correct instead of hoping what I read in a forum post is correct. Look at the CDC, WHO, and missionary sites to see what methods they are using right now to provide safe drinking water in third world countries.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

BUMP

My filters just failed and I need easy access to this thread.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

hintonlady said:


> BUMP
> 
> My filters just failed and I need easy access to this thread.



Matt from My Patriot Supply has been more than helpful in my situation. They have earned my trust and deserve their great reputation. :rock:


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## oth47 (Jan 11, 2008)

When I finally bought a Berkey,I went with the Berkey Light,partly because of cost,partly because I wanted to watch it work,which you can't do with stainless steel.I got a set of the bad filters,they were replaced with no problems.The filters in mine now are the replacements that I got.They're working fine.The ones I have stored,that I know were working,I put a bead of non-toxic silicone around the seam.That should eliminate any future problems with the glue that was used.As soon as I get the money,I plan to buy some more filters,and I will silicone them in the same manner before I store them away.I'm a firm believer in Murphy's Law and I won't depend on some indolent worker doing a proper job of gluing the filters.If my berkey didn't do anything but make my tap water palatable I'd still love it.


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## mypatriotsupply (Jan 21, 2009)

I know this took me a little longer than expected to complete my research on this topic. I spoke at length with one of the higher ups at New Millennium Concepts (the makers of Berkey) yesterday, and it was a very enlightening conversation.

Firstly, I was directed towards this document, which points out the date of manufacture that *some* filters experienced an issue. It also shows how to quickly identify the manufacture date of your filters.

http://www.berkeywater.com/Element.pdf

Without getting into too much proprietary information, after my conversation with them I am convinced that they have taken the steps necessary to correct the problem.

Furthermore, I've tested several units in-house, at my own expense, all of which have passed out of the box. 

It is important to know that not all filters in the effected date-range are "bad", their own internal numbers show a fairly small percentage. 

It was difficult for them to "catch" the problem, because by the time the effected units were in the marketplace, the problems first reported, investigated, and corrected the issue, most all units were already in the hands of customers. Not making excuses, but I completely understand how this happened. 

Also they experienced a huge rush of people who took advantage of their previously relaxed exchange policies. Word got out on different forums (not HT) that if you just called up Berkey and told them you had bad filters they would swap them out no questions asked. People with no issues at all were taking severe advantage of their high level of customer service, and so they had to start enforcing the pro-rated exchange policy. 

It is recommended that you do the red dye test out of the box, for your own peace of mind if nothing else. 

After learning the steps they took to correct this situation I feel much better about continuing to support the Berkey line of products. 

As I said previously in this thread, how a company handles a mistake is more important to me than anything else. In any manufacturing process, regardless of the amount of quality control checks that are in place, it is almost inevitable that the rare problem may arise. How a company responds, and the corrective measures taken to protect their well-earned reputation speaks volumes to me. 

From speaking to upper management, I can attest first hand that it is a situation they genuinely felt very bad about and quickly worked to correct. 

Because of this new information I will continue to offer the Berkey line of products, and I feel confident that my customers will be getting a good quality product. There are different levels of filters out there, and for the class of filters the Berkey is in, and for what it is designed to do, I'm willing to continue to associate my reputation with the Berkey name. 

Unless another situation or more facts arise to make me rethink this decision, Berkey will still be my filter of choice for this type of water filtration system.

That said, I will also be exploring other alternatives in the future - for products that offer other ranges of water filtration. The most important aspect to me is to not only provide a product that does the job that it is supposed to do, but to make it affordable for the average every day consumer. 

Regardless of how well they may function, I am very much against the high dollar units out there because few people can afford them. Finding the balance between affordability and functionality is always an interesting challenge to undertake. 

I hope my input on this matter is helpful - and if nothing else helps ease some concerns people have had.

I also want to give a personal thanks to Harry Chickpea, who I have consulted with on this matter and who has given me some brilliant ideas that I'll be working on in the coming weeks. Thanks!


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## Catshooter (May 11, 2009)

Thanks MPS. I'm keeping mine! It works a treat and in Florida, drinking the tap 'water' is the textbook definition of SHTF! It even smells bad, for crying out loud. Not when it's run through my Berkey though. And I've done the red dye test and it's passed with flying colors (so to speak  )


Cat


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2012)

What is the Red dye test?


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## mypatriotsupply (Jan 21, 2009)

I meant to say the red food coloring test, my mistake.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2012)

mypatriotsupply said:


> I meant to say the red food coloring test, my mistake.




Thanks.. will try that right now!


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## Double R (Jan 8, 2012)

I have a New Berkey water purification system which I bought in March 2011. I used it for eight months and one of the filters fell over in the unit. The glue did not hold at the base of the filter. Contacted the Berkey vender that I purchased from and he told me to contact New Millinium. I have read from a Berkey sales rep/vender on the internet that the problems are from sales during December 2010 through June 2011,elements before December 2010, you should not have problems. New Millinium knows there was a problem but wants to charge a pro rate on the defective filters. Filters from date of purchase- 6months are charged 25%--- 12-18 months are charged 50%---filters 18-24 months are charged 75%, to replace their defective filters. I feel like I waisted $339.00 on a filtration unit that the manufacture will not stand behind. The vendor that I purchased the unit from says he will take care of me on this but I have to deal with New Millinium to have this taken care of first then he will repay me. New Millinium has not responded to my email sent 4days ago over this issue. I write this so you will know what you are dealing with when you purchase a Berkey filter. 
For the record-I did not purchase this unit from mypatriot supply, I just found this site " HT today" while doing a search for an alternative filter other than Berkey. This is an awsome site full of great information, I just wish I had seen some post like these before I shelled out alot of money for a unit I no longer trust. 

I did not post the sites that I got the above figures/facts from because I don't know if its a violation of this sites policy to post a link to another site. If I am given permission from an administrator of this site to do so and someone asks for me to back up my claim I will.


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## Double R (Jan 8, 2012)

New Millinium sent me a responce to my email and looks like they are going to take care of replacement filters. I hope they have fixed the issues with them.


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