# Bottom/Turn Plow Question



## PD-Riverman (May 24, 2007)

My Father and Grandfather taught me many things about farming and using equipment before they Past but I never learned about bottom plowing.

When/why do you need to bottom plow? 
Do you disk first or just turn under the grass and weeds?
What do you do next after bottom plowing?
How much time should be allowed between bottom plowing and planting?
If I disk the field good is that as good as bottom plowing?
Any Question I left out?

A Student here wanting to learn!!!


Keep in mind, I know how to bottom plow, how to set-up the plow-----bottom plowed many of hours when I was a young guy-----I just Did It when Dad or Granddad said do it. Now I asking YOU questions I should have ask them years ago.


THANKS


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Whats bottom plowing?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

PD-Riverman said:


> My Father and Grandfather taught me many things about farming and using equipment before they Past but I never learned about bottom plowing.
> 
> When/why do you need to bottom plow?
> Do you disk first or just turn under the grass and weeds?
> ...


Plowing was the standard for farming for prolly several thousand years... but todays modern farmers are skipping that part a lot. Personally I like to turn the soil and work that organic matter into the topsoil every spring before planting. It loosens the soil, and the organic matter that you plow under helps it to stay a bit looser and provides nutrients to the deeper roots of your crop. I plow about 10 to 12 inches deep a few days before I think I will be planting. I then pull a log or other "drag" across the ground to break up the bigger clods and smooth out the ground a bit. on planting day I take my disc to it and loosen up the top lightly, and plant in the nice loose fluffy soil. When dealing with clay soils never ever plow, disc or otherwise work your soil if its too wet. If you do you will end up with bricks that takes two years to get broke back down into something workable. I check the moisture level by taking a handful of the dirt and squeezing it... if it falls back apart when you open your hand its plenty dry, but if it sticks together in a ball... put yer plow away for a dryer day.


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## PD-Riverman (May 24, 2007)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_xSxGHNy_E[/ame] This link will explain. 



fantasymaker said:


> Whats bottom plowing?


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Like above, Whats bottom plowing? Also like above, Usually only the BIG farmers have the BIG tractors to pull the types of tillage equipment that will forstall plowing. USUALLY, Us farmers/homesteaders/gardeners have to plow because our discs, harrows, ect are too light to get lost in the soil and turn it as the big tillage machines can. You may learn alot, as I did by getting Lynn Millers book Horse drawn tillage Tools. It tells how, when and why to plow. It gives reasons for discing before plowing, and I intend to use them. It tells how to set plows, and ground types, and about discing, and harrowing, useing a cultapacker, spring tooth and peg tooth harrows, roatary hoes, cultapackers, cultivators. How to use them all. Course, its set up and geared for horse farmers, but most of the information will transpose across for tractors. 
Ill try to answer #4, I think. IF the ground is bare and you disc it good, and your going to sow only small seed, like grass or hay seed, then discing sowing, harrowing and packing if you have a packer will work. If your ground is bare and you weigh down your disc as much as the tractor will pull, and your going to plant corn, then discing, planting should work. IF your ground is weedy, trashy with weeds, grass, ect, buckbrush ect, than, NO, discing wont work alone. No matter what you intend to sow/plant.

Since you intend to try to plow you should know that different soils, and the lay of different soils make a big difference in the amount of tractor you have ahead of your plow. Up home in hilly NE Kans, We counted on a tractor that could deliver between 12/15hp PER plow share at 14in ea... That was hilly clay soil. In flat, sandy soil, one could get by with 10/13hp tractor. I have a cub Farmall that is supposed to have 12hp and pull a 10in plow. Now, in saying that, it would seem that im going against what I said above. Thing is, although the tractor has the hp to possibly pull a 14in plowshare, IT dosent have the weight for the hp to get traction to pull it. A A JD, A H Farmall, A WD AC, A 70 Oliver, A U MM, A SC Case all have around 3 times the weight of a CUB, but only around double the hp. Makes a big difference. I have my grandads 1934 CC Case, I have his 3 14 plow. Up home dad ran it in steep hills ON CLAY with not to much problem. I brought it down here to NE Okla, where the grounds flat as a dollar, BUT sandy, and the tractor would drop like a rock. I had to take off one bottom.
ALSO, a pull type plow pulls harder than a 3pt one does. Thats cause of added weight to the pull type in wheels, trip mech, ect. BUT by and large, its cause one can when in a hard place, and the tractor starts spinning, raise the plow slightly , enough to regain traction and keep going. Only thing one with a pull type plow can do is , trip the plow and try it. If that dont work, back up, hold the rope, or keep it hydraulically raised, and go forward again and retrip or drop the plow as soon as possible past that point.
If when buying a plow, Make sure it comes with the coulters, and that there free and rotate without any sideways slop. They have to be set just so far above the point of a plow share, and just so far forward. It tells all this in the book I mentioned. If its a pull type, make sure the wheels have no sideways slop. Look closely at the plow points. They should have just the slightest upwards slant, but at least make sure there at least even, each straight across from front to back. If a pull type, you will need a twisted clevis.Make sure the handles dont get close enough to you during turns to either hit you or the tractor fenders if they have them. You should have a good 20ft log chain in case you get the plow stuck if a pull type and you can release from it and take the chain to pull it out. Good luck.


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## PD-Riverman (May 24, 2007)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I plow about 10 to 12 inches deep a few days before I think I will be planting.


I have a 12 acre field for example. It has grass/weeds all over it about 2ft tall (average) Would it be good to bottom plow it? Disc it first or not? If I bottom plow it a few days before planting wouldn't the tall grass that was turned cause me problems hanging in my cultivaters? Would it be good to turn under all this green and let it sit over winter or not? Thanks


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I just saw your vid, and Ill be go to hell if I would get in front of the public with a 2 12 plow with as big a 4WD a tractor as he had hooked to it. No, he dont need rolling cutters, hes got the power and traction to bust his way through the ground no matter what it is. If u wanna see plowing, Check out the A JDs plowing, Specially the old 30s one. Thats what I first drove, back in the late 50s.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

As to your question about plowing under tall grass and sprouts. If youll brush hog it first, THEN you can easily disc it, and then plowing it will be a dream. NOT brush hogging it, I wouldnt disc it, The plow wont bury it all, and youll have thin green strips all over your field. UNLESS, like your guy in the dvd. If you have one heck of a tractor and a 12in plow, and put it in high gear with 4WD, then you can go fast enough to throw the dirt enough to cover it all. I have as I said, my Grandads 1934 CC Case, I have a 48 IHC H, I have a 50 Cub Demonstrator, The Cub pulls a 10in plow. Maybe a 12 in flat sandy soil with all the weights and fluid in the back. The other 2 pull 2 14in plows.
Ive never plowed depper than around 6in one side or the other, and thats with both handles all the way up. I had some spots of hard pan, and I wanted to hit them with the plow set deep. Over around 6/8yrs, I busted up that strip of hard pan.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

PD-Riverman said:


> When/why do you need to bottom plow?
> Do you disk first or just turn under the grass and weeds?
> What do you do next after bottom plowing?
> How much time should be allowed between bottom plowing and planting?
> ...


Here in the South natural quality soil seldom exists. The more successful (profitable) farmers have learned a few lessons that have enabled them to become more efficient and less dependent on fuel consuming machinery and purchased supplies. We have an extended growing season and hot weather that causes nutrients to leech. To avoid these losses, no till and conservation tillage have become the norm. These methods also conserve ground moisture. We have very little topsoil once we get away from the swamp areas. Even our best soils are low in organic matter. Our most productive soil is typically the top 1/2 to 1 inch of soil. That is where we should concentrate on getting our seeds planted and the area we need to preserve. Turned soil is known to cause organic nitrogen to be lost. Flat bottom plows have about become obsolete as a result. The only time I would consider plowing (turning the soil) is when converting from tree land to fields. This plowing would be done to aid in leveling the ground. I would then bring the Ph and nutrient level to match the crop I planned to grow. I also do not want to turn the soil to have the undesirable seeds at different depths to germinate in the future. Additionally you may want to research the impact on the soil microbes as a result of turning the soil.


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## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

We break up new sod ground with a horse and plow. Then it is disked to break up clumps and harrowed to level the field. I wrote the short simple version of this procedure over on my blog. Also have another article titled "Tilling and Haying Without A Horse Or Tractor". We have always farmed the old fashioned way on small acreage.There are a couple of pictures also of Bill working with Rex. You can find all at; http://[email protected]


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

PD-Riverman said:


> I have a 12 acre field for example. It has grass/weeds all over it about 2ft tall (average) Would it be good to bottom plow it? Disc it first or not? If I bottom plow it a few days before planting wouldn't the tall grass that was turned cause me problems hanging in my cultivaters? Would it be good to turn under all this green and let it sit over winter or not? Thanks


I would think with that much grass and weeds you would want to cut it... possibly for hay? depending upon how much and type of grass and broadleaf you have. Once you have the heavy foilage off, then plow it, and seed it to a cover crop of some sort which can be turned under again come spring. You are correct with that much foilage, its going to give trouble plowing under and you will have some grass that will be difficult to disc up. Another alternative to mowing is to burn it off. This will get rid of a lot of your weed seed, and its good for the soil too. Just be very careful with burning... you dont want to set the entire world on fire... just the field.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

agmantoo said:


> Here in the South natural quality soil seldom exists. The more successful (profitable) farmers have learned a few lessons that have enabled them to become more efficient and less dependent on fuel consuming machinery and purchased supplies. We have an extended growing season and hot weather that causes nutrients to leech. To avoid these losses, no till and conservation tillage have become the norm. These methods also conserve ground moisture. We have very little topsoil once we get away from the swamp areas. Even our best soils are low in organic matter. Our most productive soil is typically the top 1/2 to 1 inch of soil. That is where we should concentrate on getting our seeds planted and the area we need to preserve. Turned soil is known to cause organic nitrogen to be lost. Flat bottom plows have about become obsolete as a result. The only time I would consider plowing (turning the soil) is when converting from tree land to fields. This plowing would be done to aid in leveling the ground. I would then bring the Ph and nutrient level to match the crop I planned to grow. I also do not want to turn the soil to have the undesirable seeds at different depths to germinate in the future. Additionally you may want to research the impact on the soil microbes as a result of turning the soil.


I used to farm a large farm and the only way I would use a turning plow is to have something to turn over like vetch to add nitrogen to the ground or a lot of weeds that would become green manure other wise I would just disk it or run a ripper on it to break the hard pan.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

By "bottom plow" I assume you mean a moldboard plow. In basic terms you want to get the 2 foot tall weeds and grass off that piece, burn it if you have to. Then, for this time of year, you'd fall plow 8-10" deep if possible and let the winter frosts work on it. In spring you'd go over the ground with a disc and then a spring tooth and plant away. Discing in heavy trash is hopeless unless you have a very large, heavy disc and the power to pull it. Even chiseling in heavy trash can be ineffective. 

Depending on your soil and what you want to plant you may be better off spraying and doing no till.


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## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

Here in Iowa some still plow in the fall and disc or field cultivate in the spring before planting.I would only listen to someone with a climate similar to yours.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Rose, How wides the disc u use with one horse. Ive never saw one someboody could use without at least 2 horses

OV. How many horses did u have under the hood when pulling that chisel ?


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## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

FarmBoyBill said:


> Rose, How wides the disc u use with one horse. Ive never saw one someboody could use without at least 2 horses
> 
> OV. How many horses did u have under the hood when pulling that chisel ?[
> 
> FarmBoyBill; My Bill had to re-build all the old farm machienry to fit a single horse. I don't know the measurement but his disc was about half the size you use with a team. He rebuilt the harrow and sulky plow also to use with a single horse. Years ago we had two horses that he teamed together. One was hot blooded and one was cold blooded. The hot blooded mare was half Arabian. She was the cause of more wrecked machienry. So when her better half died we decided to get a real workhorse. Rex is Clydesdale crossed with whatever? He is strong, safe, reliable, and bomb proof. No noise or anything else will spook him. Bill had to remake harnesses and equipment to suit him.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

Up here in the north, molboard plowing is very common in my county. Wet soils, hard clay, lots of heavy cornstal residue.

Here you plow in the fall, the ground freezes up all winter & as it thaws in spring & snowmelt & spring rains mellow the ground, you field cultivate it once with a harrow attached to the field cultivator and good to plant it.

Soil is too much clay to disk - back when we did with the little disks, you'd probably need to disk 2x, and harrow after.

It seems things are done different in the south, you don't have the winters. I don't know how you possibly can plow, disk, and plant in 2 weeks, our clay soil would be like bricks trying to do that.

--->Paul


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I was thinking about this thread yesterday afternoon while rolling hay... My hayfield is getting a bit thin and needs to be upgraded a bit this fall. I was going over in my mind what I needed to do, and plowing was not part of the equation. I will simply scatter some grass and clover seed (mixed with the fertilizer) and run the disc over it once after I have the hay off the field. The point is this... it depends upon what you are going to plant! If you are going for pasture or common grass hay there is really no need to plow the ground at all. if you are going to raise row crops, and run cultivators then you will need to work the soil a bit more, that usually involves the plowing, disking and harrowing to prepare a good seed bed.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

PD-Riverman said:


> My Father and Grandfather taught me many things about farming and using equipment before they Past but I never learned about bottom plowing.
> 
> When/why do you need to bottom plow?
> Do you disk first or just turn under the grass and weeds?
> ...


When/why do you need to bottom plow? This a a choice made by the soil type, the amount of material in the top part of it, and what you intend to plant. If you have hard, heavy clay, this may be the only way you can get it turned over--especially if it hasn't been worked for awhile. You may have heavy top growth or plant roots like clover sod that needs to be uprooted and turned over--which a disc or chisel plow couldn't do. You may want to plant a heavy rooted crop like corn, and if it is the first crop in awhile, the deep action of the plow will help make a looser seedbed.

Do you disk first or just turn under the grass and weeds? This is another choice made that depends on the density of those grasses and weeds. Sometimes you will chop the top stuff enough, other times the top growth will interfere and not get buried.

What do you do next after bottom plowing? If you plow in the Fall, the weather action will indeed mellow up the soil, keeping in mind that you may also get erosion and nutrient leaching..... In the Spring, normally you do whatever you have to do to prepare a seedbed. This usually involves discing, or harrowing to break down the soil particles and smooth them out

How much time should be allowed between bottom plowing and planting? Ideally, six weeks, to allow the top vegetation to decompose, which will make whatever nitrogen was in the top growth and roots be available for the new planting. There is controversy on this, though. Some say that plowing and burying the vegetation actually seals it off and creates just an anaerobic situation that doesn't make any nitrogen. Usually, the time is more dependent on weather and other field conditions.

If I disk the field good is that as good as bottom plowing? This goes along with the first question. It is a judgment call, based on what you intend to plant, and the top growth, and how long since the soil has been worked. Generally, discing heavy top growth will just create a thin layer of soil, heavily mixed with chopped up carbon material--not too good for the next planting--and usually doesn't stir up the old root growth much. With a light soil and light growth, sometimes discing a couple of times will be enough for the next seeding.

Any question I left out? Yes, several...... but four are quite important. Compaction? Soil erosion? Weeds? Cost? All of which have volumes of methods, applications, and opinions that a person will just have to struggle through....and all of them are dependent on multiple factors that can be only answered by standing on your own soil and making decisions, as you get experience. And that's why farming can be fun and agonizing at the same time.....

geo


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Here, I think I could plow, disc, harrow, and plant all in a L O N G long day lol. Up home in NE Kans, I think it could be done, but I know one could plow one day, disc the next, and plant the third, Which is about all anyone could get done back then anyway.

I find I like to plow as eary in the spring here as I can, as tho there may be a few rains at that time, there small and interspersed. If I can get the plowing done before the heavy rains come, Then, if it does dry up enough that I could get a disc in this sandy ground, but could never pull a plow, I can get the discing done waaay earlier than if I was waiting for the heavy rain season to finish so I could begin plowing. This enables me to get corn planted anywhere between 2 weeks and a month earlier. We couldnt do that at home. All the snow made the ground a morass, and then the rains melted the snow and took over. It wasnt till the lighter rains had abaited enough, say in may that we could get things done. If you didnt have your corn planted by the 1st of june up there, you wernt much of a farmer. Dad was such. He worked, so he should have had money, but for whatever reason he didnt. Either he didnt have the money for gas when it was a good time to plow, or he didnt have the money for seed when it was a good time to plant. Hed always get the money and he always get the crops in, But, we had june corn in most years, id say.

Nother thing I found after years of trying to farm here at the same time and way they farmed up home. Id wait too late to plow, and in trying to get it done, Id be plowing the bottom which has wet spots. I only had my grandads 34 CC Case then, and lots of times id get stuck. Once I took my grandads 34 White 1 1/2 ton truck down to the field which was fine except at the wet spots, hooked a LONG log chain from truck to tractor, started the tractor and put it in gear, with the front wheels pointing a different direction than the truck, and ran to the truck and put it in gear and headed out. The jerk was enough to get the Case out, I ran back and stopped the Case, which had altered the front wheels to be comeing up alongside the truck. By that time, I had realized when the tractor would become stuck, and hopelessly stuck, which was at the bottom of the gear case, and quit trying. So many times I had to hook a chain or 2 onto the plow, get the tractor unstuck, which was generally easy if I didnt wait too long to do that. then pull ahead, and hitch the chain, and pull out the plow. The wet spots might be 20ft wide, and 40ft long at the points where I could get stuck. They were wider at the points where I could either know I was getting into them, and then in a couple rounds the points where I was fighting to get out, to another couple rounds to the point where I was nearly guaranteed to get stuck. And, this with new rears. Well, I finally realized I could get onto the ground alot earlier than folks did up home. Once I realized that, and plowed earlier, plowing was a dream. And lots more fun. Tho, Now, at my age 64. I find that on the first day on a 12 acre field,, and thats generally only say 3hrs thereabouts, I feel like everybody who I ever fought in the SCA got lined up in a double row and beat me as I ran down the line and dying would be a pleasure. The second day, I felt like ther goats had did their stomp dance over me while butting heads together, and dying might be bliss. The third day, I felt like I didnt know if I wanted to live or die, as I seemed to ache more in my soulders and arms than in my feet and legs, The forth day, Like I might live afterall, and the day I finished like, Dang, wish I had another 5 to plow, This wasnt so bad. Discing was easy after finishing plowing, as I had gotten broke in, or out lol


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## PD-Riverman (May 24, 2007)

geo in mi said:


> When/why do you need to bottom plow? This a a choice made by the soil type, the amount of material in the top part of it, and what you intend to plant. If you have hard, heavy clay, this may be the only way you can get it turned over--especially if it hasn't been worked for awhile. You may have heavy top growth or plant roots like clover sod that needs to be uprooted and turned over--which a disc or chisel plow couldn't do. You may want to plant a heavy rooted crop like corn, and if it is the first crop in awhile, the deep action of the plow will help make a looser seedbed.
> 
> Do you disk first or just turn under the grass and weeds? This is another choice made that depends on the density of those grasses and weeds. Sometimes you will chop the top stuff enough, other times the top growth will interfere and not get buried.
> 
> ...


Thanks Geo, for answering all my questions!

Thanks EveryOne for your answers and input.

I have 2 fields that I do not use, about 20 acres. I been discing them a couple times a year because I do not want them to grow up. My BIL was going to plant the 8 acre field, he started discing but things came up and stopped him from getting it done. Now that field has 2ft tall grass and I know I got to do something with it which led to the questions above. After reading everyones replies, knowing I am not going to plant it, I decided to get me a bush hog and keep it cut instead of plowing/discing causing erosion, extra fuel etc. I can bush hog it 2 or 3 times a year, If I decide to plant part of it then I will prepare just the part I am going to use. I think this would be best. How does this sound to you all? 


I know I could rent it to someone for a few bucks, but I had rather it just sit than have "people" coming and going on my farm even if I am not here. Now, No One is on my property unless they are with me. I have 2 many things on my property that could "Walk" of if I allowed a farm renter on my property any time he needs-----He might not bother anything but I would not know his helpers plus the back of my farm is where my "homesteading""things" are set-up and very few people even know things are set-up back there much less know that I have lived back there for years, and I want to keep all the Nosey people from back there. I guess I am a Very Private person when it comes to strangers.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

They was telling at church of a guy who sold 277 big bales of hay for $87ea. Might think about that.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

In case your thinking your stuff isnt grade hay. people are begging for cornstalk bales and cant get them here. My boy is going to try to get my bailer to tie with me so that we can bale my pasture, and maybe my hay ground. It was bailed this spring while I was trying to locate my water well which the bailer man had knocked off at an earlier time, so didnt know whats regrown back there or not. Had a wet spring. AND also my 12 acre bottom which I didnt farm this year, and has grown back with what looks like bunch grass, grass, and weeds. I said it dfidnt look like much. He said heck dad U oughta see what some people are bailing. Here, After returning from the sale I go to the first Sat of the month, I saw a couple people rakeing and bailing the state right of way. I called my boy ahead of me to ask if he had seen it. He had. He asked me if I saw what they were baleing, I said no. He said they were bailing plates and cups and other trash. So, ya might think about bailing it, or haveing somebody else bale it. Dont matter if squares or rounds, People will be begging for it by Mar. Boy said, at a sale he goes to, there was a guy with a simi. He was asking to buy any hay he could get to make a load and take to Tex.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

I think we need to get some terminology straight here. 
A plow breaks soil.
A Disc is a plow. (honest in some parts that's what they think of when you say Plow).
A Chisel plow is pretty much a shank going into the dirt.
A Moldboard plow is like the one in the Video, it turns over the soil.
Each individual unit that can break the soil is a "Bottom".
So the one in the video is a 2 bottom moldboard plow.
There are lots of combinations like a 8 shank chisel(OR a 8 bottom chisel)
or a 10 bottom disc plow (having 10 disc blades)
Now that we have that straight do you wanna reword your questions?


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

Ya got me lost when u said a disc is a plow. True, they have disc/plows, But, there more a disc than a actual plow. A Actual plow to my daffynition completly inverts the gound so that the bottom is up and the top is buried. A disc/plow only partially inverts the soil, leaving some on top to hold the ground in places of high winds, or maybe erosion. Here in Okieland, alla the natives call a plow a breaking blow. I dont consider that im breaking it when im plowing. Maybe thats cause I use rolling cutters to slice a piece of it off and then turn it over. I can see, as in the U tube vid the guy without coulters, it would look like he was breaking off a piece of the groiund.


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## PD-Riverman (May 24, 2007)

No! I think with the Video most everyone understands what I was asking. Here in SC a disc is refered to as a disk. A bottom plow, well it is a bottom plow as seen in the video. I go to farm auctions alot and I have never heard of a "moldboard"-----I guess its according to where you are from and what people in that area call it-----like their father and Grandfather etc call it all their years. 



fantasymaker said:


> I think we need to get some terminology straight here.
> A plow breaks soil.
> A Disc is a plow. (honest in some parts that's what they think of when you say Plow).
> A Chisel plow is pretty much a shank going into the dirt.
> ...


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

PD-Riverman said:


> I know I could rent it to someone for a few bucks, but I had rather it just sit than have "people" coming and going on my farm even if I am not here.


Must be nice to have the luxury of being able to sit on resources, or plant it if you get around to it.

'Here' 20 acres would bring $150-300 an acre, depending on if it's a nice rectangle of fair soil, or a bit irregular in shape. That's $3,000 to $6,000 worth of income with no work on your part lost 'here' if we would do that. No one around here can afford to be modest or private. 

The hay market is fickle & usually poor 'here', but 20 acres x2 cuttings x 20 acres would be 2000 bales or more (should be more), at $2 a bale with half for you that would be $2,000 income with you not doing much - and likely hay market is stronger where you live.


Yup, the brush hog 2-3 times a year will keep things in good shape until you get to farming the ground. I would plow the sod, disk it a time or 2 as it dries out, and harrow it to make a good seed bed. With clay soils that takes good timing in spring, if you have sandier stuff might not be so fussy.

--->Paul


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## PD-Riverman (May 24, 2007)

Thanks Rambler

Let me ask another question I would like some input on. Being I do not want other people on my place Would it be worth it for me to buy a hay bailer and a "cutter" and turn this 20 acres (maybe 25 acres not using my hog pasture at this time) into a hayfield? I can sell hay on the front of the farm.
Is my 35HP tractor big enough for the bailer? 
What other type equipment will I need?
My tractor has a frontend loader on it. 
Wouldn't it be better to get a round bailer, less labor? 
I have the time.



rambler said:


> Must be nice to have the luxury of being able to sit on resources, or plant it if you get around to it.
> 
> 'Here' 20 acres would bring $150-300 an acre, depending on if it's a nice rectangle of fair soil, or a bit irregular in shape. That's $3,000 to $6,000 worth of income with no work on your part lost 'here' if we would do that. No one around here can afford to be modest or private.
> 
> ...


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

PD-Riverman said:


> Thanks Rambler
> 
> Let me ask another question I would like some input on. Being I do not want other people on my place Would it be worth it for me to buy a hay bailer and a "cutter" and turn this 20 acres (maybe 25 acres not using my hog pasture at this time) into a hayfield? I can sell hay on the front of the farm.
> Is my 35HP tractor big enough for the bailer?
> ...


1. you will get something for the fuel you would need to mow it anyway

2. No, 35 will not run a Roller unless it is a tiny one. 

3. Something to rake, tedd or fluff the hay depending on how thick and your weather.

4. Yes less labor but the baler is more expensive....James


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

When/why do you need to bottom plow? 
Do you disk first or just turn under the grass and weeds?
What do you do next after bottom plowing?
How much time should be allowed between bottom plowing and planting?
If I disk the field good is that as good as bottom plowing?
Any Question I left out?



THANKS[/QUOTE]


1. Over the years the thatch (dead grass) builds up and it is good to roll it over and smooth the field out.
2. If there is a lot of sod yes, but it takes a heavy disk to cut sod.
3. Here we pull a heavy rigid harrow to knock down the ridges and break up the dirt clods. Some disk it but a disk will ridge unless set up good and well designed. Never disk if wet as it compacts the soil worse than any other piece of equipment, causes hardpan.
4. If the tall grass is chopped first and the sod is cut and turned under good and the newly plowed ground is knocked down instead of bringing the sod to the top again it can be planted the same day. If the sod is brought to the top it is best to let it wilt down and the dirt is knocked off the roots so the grass and weeds will die. A cultivator is good for this and best to let the soil dry and summer fallow it to kill the weeds and unwanted grass. A good rain is good between trips to let weed seeds sprout and then be brought to the top to dry out and die.
5. Disking is not as good as plowing, it does not turn the soil over burying the weeds and plant growth. Much harder to level for a good uniform seedbed for proper placement of seed. Depending on seed, a better stand is obtained when all the seed is placed at proper depth. A drill will get a much better stand than broadcasting with the same amount of seed. The better the seedbed, level and smooth the faster the hay can be made and will make a better quality hay. Nothing worse than sod spread all over the top of a seedbed making leveling impssible and seed planted in sods will not have optimum moisture and soil to sprout.

Making a good hay field is expensive and time consuming. A lot of money can be wasted on seed and fuel in a hurry....James


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

PD-Riverman said:


> Thanks Rambler
> 
> Let me ask another question I would like some input on. Being I do not want other people on my place Would it be worth it for me to buy a hay bailer and a "cutter" and turn this 20 acres (maybe 25 acres not using my hog pasture at this time) into a hayfield? I can sell hay on the front of the farm.
> Is my 35HP tractor big enough for the bailer?
> ...


Dad & now I have baled 2000 to 6000 small square bales a year for 4 decades with a NH 270 baler & a IHC International 300 tractor - it's 35 hp. We pulled a hayrack behind it, or now I have a hay basket the bales slide up & into the basket to haul home.

In a tractor, you really really want live (or independent) pto, and multiple gears to choose from - the IHC 300 has 10 forward gears and independent pto, so works great. The same 35 hp tractor with a 4 speed or not live pto would be far less nice to bale with.

For a baler in older iron, you would look at a New Holland model 69 through 271 baler - all are kinda same smaller older but well made machines. Or in JD, the 14T or 24T models are the older good ones. A little newer in either color is better, but costs more & might take a bigger tractor. You could get one of those balers mentioned for $1000. Might find an ok one for $400, might have to spend $2500 if you gotta have one now deal. I'd e careful getting any other brand of baler from back then, they are just not as reliable, nor are the parts or troubleshooting experience available. You can find a good one, but much more of a crap shoot....

You need something to cut the hay - $500 gets you a good sickle mower, $1500 gets you a good mower conditioner. Again, you can luck out & find cheaper, or find you pay more if you need it in season gotta have it...

You need something to rake the hay, side rake. Can find some for $400 or so, good old New Holland more likely $600 to 800 or more.

You need to haul the bales, some folk drop bales on the ground & come back with a wagon to load them on, long way up to toss bales. Some have an extra person & pull a hayrack behind the baler & stack right away. Some have hay baslets the bales slide into, some have bale throwers with bale wagons, some use accumulators with loaders to pick up 8 or so bales at a time. Donno what route you want to go, you might have the trailer/wagon already, you might need to add $500 to the baler for a thrower & 1500 for a bale wagon....

You need to store bales somewhere, if you have a building, or need to work something out. You will make more selling bales in january than you will selling them out of the field, if you store them. Square bales need a roof over them.

A round baler is less work, but your tractor is too small and round bales typically sell for much less so you won't make as much gross. It's not a bad way to go tho, but perhaps doesn't fit you now? Round bales can store outdoors for a while, but they do lose value as they weather, if you are selling hay instead of feeding your own cattle, you'd do better with a building to store them for sure.

A short reply to a big topic. 

--->Paul


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

Here goes. A bottom plow is the same thing as a turn plow. When they were using mules they were called turn plows. When tractors came along they weren't advertised by horsepower till late in the sixties, they were advertised by how big a set of turn plows they would pull...a farmall cub was rated for 1 12" plow,a 8n ford 2 12" bottoms, a Super A was sold with 1 16" bottom or 2 12", an ac D-15 carried 3 16", a D-17 was rated at 4 16" etc. People just started calling them bottom plows, least way from Georgia to Virginia they did.

As to a "moaldboard" being a plow it is exactly that, for a plow that has no moving parts and still turns soil one way has a "moaldboard" on it. The moaldboard being the large piece above the point that rolls the soil on over. A middlebuster has two moaldboard , one turns to the left and one to the right. A disc plow, or a new land tiller as its often called in this part of the world doesn't have a moaldboard, just has a big, heavy disc blade.

Why do you plow land? Here are a few reasons to plow land in your neck of the woods.
1. If you are using cultivators as your main weed control, you bury the weed seeds 
deep enough that most of them don't come up or at least take longer to giving 
you aand your crop a head start on the weeds.
2. You can build your top soil, buy plowing an inch or so deeper each year. If you 
have a clay subsoil that's enough to mix in at the time. I moved here in 1998, and
the fields were rented out to tenant farmers. I learned then how spoiled I was 
to the land my family had farmed for the last century. It was packed so tight 
that my plows wouldn't stay in the ground in some spots. It has took several 
years of turning in green crops and stubble to change the texture of the soil.
3. You can get rid of alot of pest by flipping your land in the fall and leaving it 
open. Even better if you can do it just before a cold snap.


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## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

PD-Riverman said:


> Thanks Rambler
> 
> Let me ask another question I would like some input on. Being I do not want other people on my place Would it be worth it for me to buy a hay bailer and a "cutter" and turn this 20 acres (maybe 25 acres not using my hog pasture at this time) into a hayfield? I can sell hay on the front of the farm.
> Is my 35HP tractor big enough for the bailer?
> ...


 Boy I really appreciate your timely post as I have similar questions. For me, I have a 7 acre hay field that is very productive for around here and as much as I would love my own haying equipment it just doesnt pencil out. We hire a neighbor to hay our field and he charges $1.00 a square bale and a plate of the Mrs cookies.

As for plowing, we have a couple acres (and we are expanding) in a truck garden operation and our soil is rocky clay...with emphasis on rocky. I have been using a single bottom mould board plow and a middle buster to break through the soil and turn it which helps get through roots and exposes the rocks. We then pick the rocks and use the rocks for fence corner posts (I use old hog or cattle panels in a tube shape, anchor them with a T-post or two then fill them with the rocks). I then use a 5 toothed chisel plow to break up the big chunks then use a drag harrow to smooth it out and I plant winter wheat in late Sep or early Oct. In the spring I use a 3 pt tiller then use the middle buster to make the rows and it really seems to work well for that small of an operation.

As for the hay pasture, I have just been using the 5 toothed chisel plow to break it up a bit and then the drag harrow to smooh it out before I fertilize and seed. I am saving up for a disk harrow and a cultivator.

I am not even pretending I know what I am doing but am just sharing what has worked well for me. Gardens didnt do too well here this year but ours has been very abundant and we have sold enough produce to pay for all of the seed and fertilizer we used plus some. As for the pasture, ours will need lime soon and I have found out that the MO Dept of Conservation has some equipment you can rent for cheap and they have cost share programs available to help with the cost of fertilizer, lime, and some fencing as part of an erosion control program so you might check with your state.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

I agree with your reasons to plow. I gotta disagree with your statements that tractors wernt designated by hp till the 60s. Actually, Tractors, and maybe steam engines were first designated by drawbar and pulley hp before they got model numbers or names. McCormack Deering 10 - 20, 22 - 30, and others. Hart Parr Oliver 18 - 27. Those are all that I can correctly remember now, but ALL between 1900 and 1935 thereabouts had the drawbar and pulley hp as their model names.


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## FarmboyBill (Aug 19, 2005)

O GOD, Thank You for getting me outa the ROCKY Ozarks and into NE Okla, and putting me on a farm that is 12 plowable without rocks.


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## salmonslayer (Jan 4, 2009)

FarmBoyBill said:


> O GOD, Thank You for getting me outa the ROCKY Ozarks and into NE Okla, and putting me on a farm that is 12 plowable without rocks.


 Its really hard on equipment thats for sure.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

FarmBoyBill said:


> A Actual plow to my daffynition completly inverts the gound so that the bottom is up and the top is buried. .


So what do you call a chisel plow?


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