# Does anyone here make a profit from beef cattle?



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I have been in the business of raising cattle for almost three years. I expect my third calf crop starting in early March. My bull has produced some nice calves from his following.

I would like to hear how you make money on beef. I would also hope you indulge me with questions.

Thank you
@agmantoo if you are here. We are back on the farm. I hope you are getting around.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Live in a location that has agriculture exemptions on ranch land. My neighbor saves over $16,000 tax on his 40 acres each year in Travis County. It’s dry rocky land, and he has four cows and a bull. Feeds them hay and cubes year round. Deducts feed, etc., as farm expense on Schedule F. It’s a loss on paper, but a win in the pocket book. He couldn’t afford to keep the land without the exemption.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I understand some of the tax benefits from cattle.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The other technique is to become very familiar with Schedule F. Take every deduction possible. Feed, hay, fence, tractor fuel, water lines, repairs, etc. Track ALL your mileage, and itemize ranch miles on your return. 

The cattle raising is pretty straight forward. Cow + bull = calf. Keep them healthy with as little expense as reasonable. Learn to do all the doctoring yourself. 

Figure out what types of cattle bring top dollar at the sale. Get that for your breeding stock. Figure out what weight range brings top dollar. Learn the market fluctuations around major holidays and target your calf weights to sell on high dollar sale days.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

I make good money on cows. Out of the last 16 years, there was one bad year, but I still profited. The key is, genetics that you can accurately predict, micromanaging grass, breeding timeline to match your forage, keeping equipment inputs to a minimum through maintenance., and most importantly, MARKETING. Selling at the stockyard makes the stockyard money, the money they make is yours. Selling calves here and there private trade costs too much time and you waste more time dealing with genpop morons. Selling freezer beef is expensive (equipment inputs) and paying a processor is another cost. The marketing key, you ask? Find an order buyer that you can trust. Sell bulk to him, one shot of uniform good grade calves. Then, go home and count your money.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Do you have to have a full truckload of calves to sell that way?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Seth said:


> I make good money on cows. Out of the last 16 years, there was one bad year, but I still profited. The key is, genetics that you can accurately predict, micromanaging grass, breeding timeline to match your forage, keeping equipment inputs to a minimum through maintenance., and most importantly, MARKETING. Selling at the stockyard makes the stockyard money, the money they make is yours. Selling calves here and there private trade costs too much time and you waste more time dealing with genpop morons. Selling freezer beef is expensive (equipment inputs) and paying a processor is another cost. The marketing key, you ask? Find an order buyer that you can trust. Sell bulk to him, one shot of uniform good grade calves. Then, go home and count your money.


Thank you. I hope I could ask:

How long have you been selling to an order buyer?
What weights do you sell? Any? Target?
Minimum load size?


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

After about 7 years of raising cattle, we started to see a profit. But like Seth, we stopped selling to the stockyard and started selling directly to a feedlot grower. We did all of our vetting ourselves with the support of our vet that knew I knew what I was doing. We grew our own hay, gave very, very little grain, and managed our pastures very well. Our calves were consistent in weight/size and we breed so that all of the cows dropped their calves within 60 days. We did cull quite a few cows along the way that didn't meet the requirements we had set forth. And, we always had a high quality bull.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

hiddensprings said:


> After about 7 years of raising cattle, we started to see a profit. But like Seth, we stopped selling to the stockyard and started selling directly to a feedlot grower. We did all of our vetting ourselves with the support of our vet that knew I knew what I was doing. We grew our own hay, gave very, very little grain, and managed our pastures very well. Our calves were consistent in weight/size and we breed so that all of the cows dropped their calves within 60 days. We did cull quite a few cows along the way that didn't meet the requirements we had set forth. And, we always had a high quality bull.


Do you know your carrying cost per cow?


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Been selling to the same buyer for 11 years (long story) I shoot for 700-800 sell weight have carried to 900, but that's rare and needs to be discussed with the buyer beforehand. Buyers like uniform sized calves and they like a full load (approx 50 head) there are exceptions. if you have good calves, they will buy them, many times I hold back a short load for the buyer to buy late and split up to finish out other groups. These are good calve, but NOT uniform. Finding a buyer is tough, finding an honest one is tougher, but rewarding. I have a great relationship with my buyer, if I need to sell I call him and after hearing what I have he makes an offer (per lb.). Flip side, if he needs calves he calls and he makes an offer. When we agree on a price, he sends a truck to pick them up and I have them up and ready to load. I get the weight tickets at loading time (scale at COOP down the road) and in a week or so I get a check from him reflecting a 1% shrink. Done and done. 

Moral of the story: Raise good stock, form a relationship, and they will buy what you are selling in any quantity.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Seth said:


> Been selling to the same buyer for 11 years (long story) I shoot for 700-800 sell weight have carried to 900, but that's rare and needs to be discussed with the buyer beforehand. Buyers like uniform sized calves and they like a full load (approx 50 head) there are exceptions. if you have good calves, they will buy them, many times I hold back a short load for the buyer to buy late and split up to finish out other groups. These are good calve, but NOT uniform. Finding a buyer is tough, finding an honest one is tougher, but rewarding. I have a great relationship with my buyer, if I need to sell I call him and after hearing what I have he makes an offer (per lb.). Flip side, if he needs calves he calls and he makes an offer. When we agree on a price, he sends a truck to pick them up and I have them up and ready to load. I get the weight tickets at loading time (scale at COOP down the road) and in a week or so I get a check from him reflecting a 1% shrink. Done and done.
> 
> Moral of the story: Raise good stock, form a relationship, and they will buy what you are selling in any quantity.


How would you suggest one find a buyer?


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Local cattlemen's meetings, county agent, word of mouth at the stockyard. My buyer is three hours away from me.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Let me add that I tweaked my breeding and calving program to better suit his needs, communication is key.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Thanks @Seth 

Do you know your carrying cost? Are you less than $800?


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Honestly, no. I figure it now and then, but it's not the indicator folks will lead you to believe it is.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Seth said:


> Honestly, no. I figure it now and then, but it's not the indicator folks will lead you to believe it is.


Do you know what your annual operating expenses per cow is? - no land, no depreciation, no taxes, not counting calves, just cows?

Thanks


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

I'll have to figure from my books when I get home. Haven't done any 2018 stuff on paper yet, 2017 was high due to equipment costs, but don't remember what the number was.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Seth said:


> I'll have to figure from my books when I get home. Haven't done any 2018 stuff on paper yet, 2017 was high due to equipment costs, but don't remember what the number was.


Thanks - Was agman around you?


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Don't know him.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Seth said:


> Don't know him.


Great guy. Was on here. Got hurt in atv accident. Around Concord

Good cow and grass man


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

2 hours south of me, give or take.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

hiddensprings said:


> After about 7 years of raising cattle, we started to see a profit. But like Seth, we stopped selling to the stockyard and started selling directly to a feedlot grower. We did all of our vetting ourselves with the support of our vet that knew I knew what I was doing. We grew our own hay, gave very, very little grain, and managed our pastures very well. Our calves were consistent in weight/size and we breed so that all of the cows dropped their calves within 60 days. We did cull quite a few cows along the way that didn't meet the requirements we had set forth. And, we always had a high quality bull.


My husband's Uncle used to make a profit on beef cattle. His approach was similar to this. Basically he only spent money if he had to. So, he liked to have 2 years of hay set aside because if he had to buy hay then figured that everybody would, and that would make the cost of hay grow up. He cut his own ceder fence posts and soaked them in preservative, and 2 times a year he would go out, give each post a hard shake, and replace any that were rotten. He tried to avoid taking half a load of cattle to town: if he had to cull a cow he would call the neighbors and ask them if they had any culls to send with him and usually somebody did. That way they owed him a favor and perhas the next time they culled a cow they would call him and then he would not have to spend the gas money and half a day of work taking the cow to the feed lot. I remember how tickled he was when he found out that the feed lot he favored only docked $5 if a calf was not castrated: he took the reduced labor plus the increased rate of gain that bull calves show and he figured he did well to no longer castrate. Basically he never spent money if his labor would do.

And, most important of all, he paid off his land when he was younger and raising row crops. He didn't get into cattle until he decided he needed to slow down a little.

Even so, there was one year- I think it was 1986- when he complained bitterly that he had made no profit at all, because prices were way down and there was bad illnesses in the neighboring herds so he had to vaccinate twice and I think the weather was bad so he had to feed his herd instead of just grazing them for most of the year. There are years like that.

Now, James Gist has been dead and gone for many years now, and I know that times have changed. Still, there might be something there that you could use: I know that he made money many years when other people did not.


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## ridgerunner1965 (Apr 13, 2013)

I haven't read all these posts but im surrounded by cattle ranches. ive lived on one for all my life. my dad has raised cattle since we moved here to mo in 74.

my brother has taken over the ranch now. as dad is 85 yrs old. im not much of a cowman, but trust me my dad started out with nothing and now has several hundred acres of paid for land plus a huge fine house, vehicles and tractors all paid for.. cows did that for him. he did work like a madman for more than 50 yrs. and his sons helped. he always had a side job with his dozers and backhoe that I helped him with.

the cow business is a long term thing, yu cant get in and out yu have to take the highs with the lows and stay in.

the biggest thing is sacrifice, in lean years we didn't spend much and in fat years we saved the excess.

my dad always had side jobs besides the farm but always worked for himself. dozer and backhoe biz he hauled that equipment all over the county. 

I truly cant recommend the cow biz unless yu want to work 7 days a week daylight till dark.

my dad once told me he wished he didn't have to stop working to eat.it was a major inconvienence to him.


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## ridgerunner1965 (Apr 13, 2013)

my dad never purchased hay or feed for our cows, he grew it all himself. in the early years the cows just got hay in the winter and then later he grew and combined some corn. he ground the corn and fed it to the weanlings. but for many years our cattle got no feed but grass or hay. he had a business cleaning out turkey houses for the turkey poop. he spread it on our pastures and we had much better grass than most farms around here. after awhile people caught on to it and there was a bidding war for poultry poop.

one thing ill say was my dad was a mechanic that could fix anything. that saved him more money than anything else he did. f yu have a farm and you don't have a welder and a torch set you are just playing at a hobby

he taught me so many things but the biggest thing was don't be afraid to work and don't think you cant do something cuz yu can!


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## JohnP (Sep 1, 2010)

Question for anyone. Where's agman's famous sticky thread?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I sold out our herd a few years back but when I ran a cow calf operation I made good money with them. They were on pasture seven months out of the year and got hay from the farm with pasture the other five. Mineral blocks and a protein tub after calves dropped. Thanks to tax laws I saved enough on overall taxes to pay the hay expense and incidentals, averaged around $500 per head on my calves as yearlings. Prior to cow calf, I bought baby calves, cross bred dairy and beef. Learned a lot and enjoyed them but never really showed a profit.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

JohnP said:


> Question for anyone. Where's agman's famous sticky thread?


I haven't moved or unstuck any threads so perhaps you could advise me as to what thread you feel is missing and I'll look for it.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

JohnP said:


> Question for anyone. Where's agman's famous sticky thread?


I think you are talking about this thread. He did not start it but made a tremendous contribution.

https://www.homesteadingtoday.com/threads/any-ideas-for-converting-to-rotational-grazing.286704/


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## JohnP (Sep 1, 2010)

HDRider said:


> I think you are talking about this thread. He did not start it but made a tremendous contribution.
> 
> https://www.homesteadingtoday.com/threads/any-ideas-for-converting-to-rotational-grazing.286704/


That would be the one, Thanks
Right up there with foreman's extreme composting


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

We are relatively new to cattle. Started in 2010 with two half starved brangus cows with a calf, one steer and one heifer, at there side. After borrowing a bull from our neighbor for breeding for the first breeding we decided to purchase a 3/4 lowline bull calf. One of our main reasons for raising cattle was for personal consumption. We like to know were our meat comes from. Only having access to 60 acres we are limited to the number of cattle we can raise. WE have been selling 1 or 2 registered Aberdeen calves a year and 3 or 4 as 1/4's of beef to the public. 
Been pretty much a break even operation. If mother nature ever cooperates We hope to turn a small profit on what I would consider a hobby that the wife and I truly enjoy. As long as we can keep our customers happy with grass fed beef and we can add a couple of dollars to our retirement instead of draining it we will continue.
Highly recommend Aberdeen Angus (lowline). Very easy going animals. Don't miss those brangus at all.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Nice looking calves.


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## Bob M. (Nov 5, 2018)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Nice looking calves.


I bet she works out.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

HDRider said:


> Do you know your carrying cost per cow?


. I'll get that from hubby. He's the numbers guy


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

Bob M. said:


> I bet she works out.


Yes working the ranch is a work out. If we quit breaking bones this ranch life should keep us in shape. www.lazybranch.net


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## ridgerunner1965 (Apr 13, 2013)

if your not making profit from cattle then your doing it wrong. I am surrounded by people making money on cattle.

if your just a hobby farmer and barely breaking even then that's fine too. you get some good home raised beef and thats worth a lot.

if yur losing a lot of money in cattle then id stop doing it. everybody has a pencil and a calculator.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

By the time I paid property taxes and irrigation water, there was no way I could make a profit with the number of head my land would support. What I got out of it was custom raised meat for my own freezer, raised for flavor. I sold sides and had happy customers but there were too many people selling cheaper raised meat as locker meat to get my expenses paid. It helped to pay the taxes and kept the land in farm deferral.

Neighbors who raised cattle all raised fancy purebreds sold for breeding stock or show cattle. I don't know if any of them ever actually made a profit. A couple of different neighbors raised Angus and one raised high yield fancy show Holsteins.

In order to make money with cattle, you need access to a lot of cheap feed on land with low property taxes, and cheap labor.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

HD: Like Alice's friend, I retired on a 40-acre place and bought angus stock. I could never carry more than 7 or 8 mother cows, had to buy hay and cubes for winter feed. Except for AI and one or two serious problems I did all my own vet work. 

However; I had an ag exemption on my land, I could buy feed and farm needs tax-free and I could charge off all my farm expenses. In twenty years I showed a paper profit only once or twice, but EVERY year I bought equipment, improved my land and fences and charged off depreciation. Had I twice the land I would simply have bought more and better equipment or cut my own hay. I'd have starved to death if I had to make a living off that 40 acres.

Neighbors who actually made a living off cattle seldom ran fewer than 150 head in several pastures. A good friend started as a local school teacher, spent nearly 40 years leasing and buying land until he had room for 450 head. His equipment looked like junk but every bit of it worked.

I believe that stats show the most consistently profitable cattlemen are those with 25 head or fewer who hold full time jobs in town and run their cattle in their off time.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

ridgerunner1965 said:


> if your not making profit from cattle then your doing it wrong. I am *surrounded by people making money on cattle*.
> 
> if your just a hobby farmer and barely breaking even then that's fine too. you get some good home raised beef and thats worth a lot.
> 
> if yur losing a lot of money in cattle then id stop doing it. everybody has a pencil and a calculator.


I would challenge that. I got a real good pencil, and a very good calculator.

The best most could hope for is a tax advantage.

I am just above break even if I look at nothing but operating expense. That is not counting any capital depreciation, no cost of land, and surely no labor cost.

I am happy to share my math if you want to share yours.


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## ridgerunner1965 (Apr 13, 2013)

well a lot depends on your operating expense.

are you buying any kind of feed? other than mineral? we never did.

are you putting up all your own hay? we always did.

are you doin all your own mechanic work on your equipment and also on all your vehicles? we always did. also welding and fabrication for whatever was needed on the farm.

are you butchering your own animals for meat? we always did. and I mean killing them and cutting them up yourself. we had lots of adventures there.

are you fixing all your own tires? a farm has a lot of tires on the ground. we fixed every single one at home.

doing all your own vet work? we always did. the only time we had a vet out was if the milk cow was about to die.

my dad was hilarious ive seen him go decades without paying anyone to do anything. he did it all with just us his sons to help.


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## montysky (Aug 21, 2006)

Yes


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## Windswept Hill (Nov 23, 2010)

Impossible to break even when they are paying less than 40 cents per pound for cattle at the auctions.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Windswept Hill said:


> Impossible to break even when they are paying less than 40 cents per pound for cattle at the auctions.


Is this old slaughter cattle prices.


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## Windswept Hill (Nov 23, 2010)

TripleD said:


> Is this old slaughter cattle prices.


No, here is an ad from a few weeks ago.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

400 pound steers here averaged $1.65 per pound this week.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

TripleD said:


> 400 pound steers here averaged $1.65 per pound this week.


$1.53 here

I still say you cannot do much better than break even with normal operating expenses, and it is a loser with land costs, depreciation and putting some value on your labor.

The idea you can live some subsistence life style like some have mentioned to compensate is crazy talk.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

HDRider said:


> $1.53 here
> 
> I still say you cannot do much better than break even with normal operating expenses, and it is a loser with land costs, depreciation and putting some value on your labor.
> 
> The idea you can live some subsistence life style like some have mentioned to compensate is crazy talk.


My biggest expense is hay right now. If I get the cutover cleaned up and planted for winter grazing in the next two years that should help a lot. I had it aerial sprayed in September.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

TripleD said:


> My biggest expense is hay right now. If I get the cutover cleaned up and planted for winter grazing in the next two years that should help a lot. I had it aerial sprayed in September.


Mine too. It is almost half of my operating expense.

I am thinking real hard about buying a no till drill to extend my grazing time, but they are crazy expensive new, impossible to find used, and if you do find a used one it is still high and worn out. 

I just can't bring myself to send almost $20,000 for it.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

HDRider said:


> Mine too. It is almost half of my operating expense.
> 
> I am thinking real hard about buying a no till drill to extend my grazing time, but they are crazy expensive new, impossible to find used, and if you do find a used one it is still high and worn out.
> 
> I just can't bring myself to send almost $20,000 for it.


The USDA rents one out in my county by the acre...


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

TripleD said:


> The USDA rents one out in my county by the acre...


Mine does not


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Ours rents one as well


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Two counties south does, county west does. They will not go outside the county.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

HDRider said:


> $1.53 here
> 
> I still say you cannot do much better than break even with normal operating expenses, and it is a loser with land costs, depreciation and putting some value on your labor.
> 
> The idea you can live some subsistence life style like some have mentioned to compensate is crazy talk.


Myself and a few others around here make good on raising stock. I also have a saw mill. 4 young people working for me in the warm mos. 2 4H kids working year round here on the farm. There is very good income in Cattle, Pigs, and lumber for me. Has been for the past 8 years. I retired as an engineer and went to work on my farm. Clearing as much on the farm as i did as an engineer. I do grow 90% of the stock feed i use.  Depending on where you live there are special markets for meat and also lumber that pays very well. Way about the regular run of the mill meat buyers. Takes a little extra effort and time however it is worth it for me.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Raising cattle is not about making money. Raising cattle is about excuse not to have job in town in some cases. In other cases, it is about having really good job in town and needing creative way to spend money. In the latter instance, it might really be about having a place to deer hunt, and a really nice tractor to plow wildlife food plots, or writing off the expense of having a guy with a bulldozer build you a bass, er, cattle watering pond. Either way, both groups are raising a lot of calves, and those calves are getting dumped on the same market. Order buyers buy from sale barns too, and if they get them cheap enough at the sale barn, it will affect private treaty deals. 

Bottom line, if you are in the cow business to make money, you are doing it wrong. At best it's a bunch of fence post cutting and welding equipment that should have been replaced 20 years ago, equipment that you inevitably ride around in circles for fifty cents an hour if you are honest about counting your time. Much better to be in the business for the express purpose of losing money, at least on paper. You can accumulate some nice toys with such an arrangement. Your job in town should preclude any real need to actually make money, and any minuscule amounts of time spent playing on your toys could easily be counted as recreation. The other way will just leave you broken on oh so many levels. 

If you play it right, you can even find some local yocal that is too dumb to know that there is no living to be made farming, that will actually do some of your work for you, either for hay, deer hunting privileges, or sometimes just to show you how much smarter and better at farming they are than you. Appreciate that individual when you can find them, they will make your non profit endeavor even more enjoyable by saving you from the monotony of menial tasks like hay baling and such.

And if it makes you sick to be that playboy, farmer on paper, deer hunting land baron with shiny toys in the mirror, just remember, he is your direct competitor in the beef industry. He really doesn't care if he dumps 50 calves on the market year in and year out and most years they don't make a profit. His pond is full of bass, he has a four wheel drive tractor to plow his half mile of driveway to get to his town job in his big buck deer hauling pick' em up, and his accountant is making it all come out just right.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I made fair money running a cow calf operation with beef cattle for a number of years. There is a huge difference between dairy and beef operations. I originally bought four decent beef cows and one bull. At one point I had as many as 27 head (cows calves and a bull) on about that many acres. I normally sold my calves to a pen hooker for what I figured to be close to market prices. Once in a while I'd run them through the local market just to stay well informed. Never got rich, but they were lots of fun and cashing those pay checks once a year was nice.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

@barnbilder you summed it up very well.


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## Windswept Hill (Nov 23, 2010)

They are paying 55 cents per pound at the auction this week.

At that price my Dexters cost more to feed than they sell for, never mind labor and other expenses.


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