# solar power ??



## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

I am looking to be able to add solar to our situation

Being totally ignorant, I want to be to be able to keep the essentials going during a power outage (perhaps extended).an

I am in semi cloudy central (lower penisula) Michigan and 20 amps (at 120v) will probably do the job (tho I will look to go larger, evetually)

Be gentle:knitting::hysterical:


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

I really think you need to determine your real needs. 20amps at 120v is 2400watts of power. How often do you really need that much power? At 24x7 Figure the northern latitudes you want some overhead room on the panels so 3000 watts worth of panels. That would be 12 250watt panels so figure $3000 for the panels. then we need to add in the batteries and inverters... 


I suspect this is way out side your anticipated budget. You really need to understand every watt of power you need, how often you need it to get a good calculation of what you need.


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## wannabfarmer (Jun 30, 2015)

My wife is in the same mindset that she still wants ALL of the luxury of being on grid but with an off grid system. i'm also not very educated in the whole system i do have the basic idea on how it works but i am still doing my research. i actually budgeted for $5000 just in panels. id rather budget high and come out "saving money" lol just makes me feel better.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Budget about 8k for the whole system, and you'd be in the ball park.

12 panels as Gary said: $3,000

A Flexpower1 panel ( http://www.wholesalesolar.com/inverter-system/outback-power-flexPower-solar-power-center-fp1-2.html ) which comes with a 3600 watt inverter set up for a 48v system ( go 48v if you think you are EVER gonna expand this system), charge controller, etc.....all set up...you don't have to think it out, just hang the panel on the wall,









and plug in the wires as per instructions...the most simple setup you will find in the solar industry, I HIGHLY recommend it. This is as close to "plug and play" as you will find. $3540.

Then buy (8) L-16 400amp-hr Deka batteries (will last you 8-10 years with care, maybe a shade more IF you are just using this system for backup)...local price on them here is around $250ea. Add another 50 bucks for tax and cables.

8x300= 2400.

3000+3540+2400+ some for mounting racking/misc wiring (say 1,000) and your grand total is: right at 10 grand for PARTS.....but you'll have a pretty decent 120v, 30amp, AC system.

IF your wife wants a TRUE grid replacement system, be prepared to spend 3-6 times that....maybe more....depends on what you use now.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

It may be wise to review your motives for wanting to avoid "the grid." Alternative power via solar or wind will cost you about 3x the cost of grid power. You'll have to come up with the money up front and thus lose the "investment potential' of spending all that money right now. And then, just when the system finally reaches the break even point, it'll wear out and you'll have to spend all that money again to replace it.

That may be worth it if you're so far off grid that the cost of running a new line from the grid to your location rivals the cost of an alternative installation.

If your motive is altruistic, that is, you think you're saving the environment, then you need to educate yourself a little more and re-think it. You wouldn't really be helping anything.

If your motive is energy security, then maybe you only need to spend a little on your set-up, directing your efforts to specific applications: well pump, wood boiler with solar for circulating pump for your heating, maybe limited set up for a fridge or freezer for food security. 

Conserve for conservation's sake. Waste not, want not. Most of us waste a lot of energy without knowing it. Go over your needs vs your luxuries, then work from there.


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## wannabfarmer (Jun 30, 2015)

my statement was more of a joke as i have seen many people get this very elaborate system and never see the benefit of it except in power outages. i do believe in over budget because things always come up.


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

I am not looking for "off the grid", just want to be able to keep the pellet stoves (some lights, water and entertainment) on during an extended power outage (let's say 3 days).


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Riverdale said:


> I am not looking for "off the grid", just want to be able to keep the pellet stoves (some lights, water and entertainment) on during an extended power outage (let's say 3 days).



Three days? Heck, a $400 generator and 15 gal of gas will get that job done.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Solar does NOT make sense 'Part Time'.
It an independent power grid, small scale, so its not going to be 'Cheap'.

The second mistake people make is thinking 'Easy',
"I just flip a switch..." Thinking like that isn't where solar pays off.

Small solar on a cart, couple of panels, couple of batteries, inverter is what I would recommend for 'Emergencies'.
That's ONLY if you leave the 'Cart' outside so it charges the batteries.
This is enough power to charge cell phones, power up a lap top computer,
Power up a couple of low consumption lights, maybe a small fan or 12 volt cooler...

Truly an 'Emergency' stand by unit.

The 'Best' way to do things is with a grid inter-tie system.
As many panels as you can stuff on a roof,
Producing enough power to run the basics, fridge, a couple of lights,
The blower motor on a gas or wood or whatever furnace.
(NOT ELECTRIC HEAT! Electric heat takes way too much power for small solar.)

A grid inter-tie allows your big investment, the panels, to turn you meter backwards,
Taking $$$ off your electric bill.
You still draw off the grid on overcast days or at night,
But you get credits for what you produce and don't use.

There are several inverters that allow you to switch to 'Off Grid' when the power grid goes down.
In the daytime ONLY, with enough panels, the solar will power critical appliances with an ON/OFF grid inverter.
The fridge/freezer cools down in the daytime while you have power,
At night nothing runs until you get power from the grid again.

The NEXT SYEP is an On/Off grid system with battery back up.
Batteries are a HUGE pain in the butt, 
OR,
They are VERY expensive.

If money is no object (government contract) then you can use a 'Gel Cell' battery in your battery bank.
These Gel Cells never need water, they don't off gas hydrogen in concentrations that will burn/explode, and they have a fairly long life...

The basic 'Solar' battery is usually a 'Golf Cart' battery,
These are 'Flooded' batteries, meaning they have liquid electrolyte ('Acid'),
They off gas hydrogen when charging/discharging so they have to be vented,
And they need water from time to time...
They also like to seriously corrode terminals/connections,
So flooded batteries take regular maintenance.

The cost $$ of flooded batteries (Per Amp Hour of storage) is the best deal on the market since they are 'Common' and made in huge quantities.

Now, the longevity of your battery bank usually depends on two things,
1. Maintenance.
Keeping the batteries full of water/electrolyte,
Keeping the batteries fully charged as much as possible,
Keeping terminals clean so corrosion resistance doesn't eat up the production from your panels.

2. The SIZE of your battery bank.
Small banks tend to get DEEPLY discharged,
And deep discharging will damage batteries over time.
The larger the battery bank, the less discharged the bank becomes, 
So the longer the battery bank lasts.

The point of a battery bank is to store the power YOU MAKE for use when its overcast, night time, ect.
Battery banks make you totally off grid with the right inverter.
With enough panels, the panels run the house AND charge the batteries for night time use.

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Now, something most people don't think of,
For short duration power outrages, the good old back up generator AND a battery bank work pretty well,
The 'Grid' charges the batteries when everything is working normally,
When the grid goes down, the batteries/inverter kick in.
The batteries will eventually discharge, the generator fires up, supports the house and charges the batteries,
When the batteries are charged, the generator shuts down and the house is powered by the batteries again until the batteries discharge,
Then The genset fires up again...

This takes the load off the genset, saves fuel, and allows for the generator to be more efficient while its running...
Gensets always are capable of making more power than they usually are asked to make,
The battery bank gets the 'Excess' and stores it, allowing for the run time to be more efficient.


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

doc- said:


> Three days? Heck, a $400 generator and 15 gal of gas will get that job done.


Doc, if I have a three day outage, it means ice storms. And with my luck, I would run out of gas for the jenny at the worst possible time


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## lynnemabry (Dec 28, 2013)

Riverdale said:


> Doc, if I have a three day outage, it means ice storms. And with my luck, I would run out of gas for the jenny at the worst possible time



In your first post you say in a simi cloudy area. It also sounds like winter is when you are most concerned about back up power. You are also very far north.
Have you looked at how much power you can make that time of year with solar?
I am just north of San Francisco and a stormy winter means running the generator to charge my batteries for my solar system. 
We also know to minimize power usage as needed( this is after learning to live with a lot less power to begin with.) 
Maybe you need to think about a propane generator and a large tank as your back up power. Then you are not depending on sun that may not happen. 

IMHO solar is great when you have no grid to tie to or to sell power back to your utility but since it really does depend on the sun, as back up in the winter, it can just be frustrating.


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Love that system TN Andy suggested. I couldn't afford to dump $10k into one right now, though. Not sure how your finances are, it may not be a big deal for you.

$1k to $1.5k would get you a decent inverter generator and enough gas cans and gas (plus fuel treatments) to run for a month, or longer if you don't run it 24/7. It's not "sustainable" over the long term if you can't continue to buy gas so it probably isn't going to be anything other than a short term solution to electricity should there be some massive "end of the world as we know it" event. For an outage such as an ice storm where power might be out for a few days or even a week or two, it's nice to have something like that around.

Even if you do decide to pursue a full blown solar setup, having a decent generator around is still not a bad idea. While a setup like Andy is talking about is generally quite reliable, there can still be downtime for a number of reasons and it could be nice to have a backup on hand and ready to go while you get your solar equipment back up and running.

Good luck!


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

TN Andy is sharp as a razor on this stuff!
I'd like to sip iced tea and shoot the bull with him sometime...
He's the ONLY other person I've seen that writes you CAN get 8 to 10 years out of common batteries, which is absloutely TRUE!

What I have the hardest time with is getting people to understand that a properly cared for battery bank will give you 10 good years, and maybe two or three more years of 'Not So Great' performance...

A battery bank doesn't have to be 100% efficient to still deliver acceptable and cost efficient performance.
And once the battery can't keep up with the battery bank, doesn't make it useless...
I repurpose my 'Weak' batteries, stand alone security lights, electric fence chargers, even small DC welding jobs, ect.
You take care of them, and you can wring more service out of them than the factory or solar engineers ever thought of in their wildest dreams...

------

I hear a lot of people complain about Lattitude in terms of 'Up North',
Like the sun doesn't shine north of Kentucky...

Germany is much farther 'North' than anyplace in the continental US, and they are drawing 75% of grid energy needs from renewables, mainly solar...
Alaska has a bunch of solar.

All the places I've visited & worked that were using renewables,
If geological conditions hampered solar production, then wind was feasible.

Where I live 'Big Wind' isn't feasible, but small wind does a great job when the sun isn't shining for me,
And I've found I get just enough wind to 'Finish Charge' my batteries.

Old TV tower (everywhere still in the age of sattlite dishes) and a repurposed vehicle generator and not much to it getting a small charge out of it...


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

If you are a 'Tinker' Mechanical type, there are ways all over the Internet to produce your own wind power generator.
I've used RE-wound automotive alternators,
The most productive version is a car spindle/wheel bearing.

With an alternator, you get ONE set of stator windings that produce current.
With a spindle, your magnets are a little different, but you have one set,
But you can put TWO stators, two sets of windings, on the magnets,
One one both sides of the magnet rotor,
And you wind up doubling the output.

The vehicle wheel bearings are inexpensive & available,
And they last a LOT longer than the smaller alternator bearings.

Not to detail the thread on solar, just an idea...


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## AndrewD (Nov 24, 2015)

I don&#8217;t think you should worry too much about being in a semi-cloudy area. Solar power can be feasible in even the gloomiest parts of the world. At the same time, you will want to look into how much sunlight your area gets so that you can determine whether or not it will work for you. You really need to think about why you want to go solar. If it&#8217;s just to power your home for a few days during a power outage, then installing a full system on your roof is not going to be financially feasible. However, it can help you save on your power bill year round, so if you want to reduce your power bill (and who doesn&#8217;t?), then solar is going to make a lot more sense. If all you need is backup power, then you might be able to find some kind of an auxiliary solar power system on the market. Definitely don&#8217;t install a full system if you&#8217;re just going to use it once in a while when the power goes out. Hope this helps!


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

I looked into solar years back, cost was way way out of my income range, when my DIL said you really SHOULD do this. I said I would never live long enough to reap any free power...she said then her family would have free power.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Nothing is free. We have the bare necessary. 1/3 solar 12v, 2/3 micro-hydro 24v. Refrigerator, freezer, tiny heat coil 24v. Lights, heater fan, cell and Chromebook charger 12v. C cell clock....James 

The little town we are close to, lost power twice yesterday, 6:30 am from a car accident that took out a pole on the highway and at 9:30 last night when a tree came down on a line. All over face book how bad it was. No difference here. This little cabin is so easy to heat. Just the little coil, a small fan inside an insulated 3" flex tube returning the heat collected from the tray ceiling in the airlock entry to near the floor is all it takes. I heat the block wall with the woodstove while cooking and heating water, this heat radiates to the tray ceiling....James


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