# Cattle Tutorials



## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

I have had 3 people now request that I try to help those that want to know about the cattle business. One specifically asked me to start a thread. His idea was to make it in the form of lessons or tutorials.

I will do this, but it will be based ONLY on what has worked in our situation, which is primarily the way it works on most cow/calf operations in this part of the country.

I will ignore anyone that trolls and tries to derail the ideas.

I will gladly answer any questions.

The first thing is to decide what you want to do. Do you want a beef operation such as a cow/calf operation or do you want to the direction of providing finished meet in addition to your cow/calf operation?

We do no finishing except for the grass fed beef we put on our own table. In a typical cow/calf operation you can sell the weanlings or at any time after up to slaughter. If you are selling to a niche market then it may pay for you to finish to slaughter. However, in a typical cow/calf operation, you have the potential for higher profit in relation to level of risk by selling the weanlings.

In the midwest weanlings sell best from about 600 to 750 pounds. Over that and you start to get docked.

Also, if you sell calves that are too well fed, you get docked. Backgrounders want to be able to add weight. They can't do that if the calf is already too "fleshy".

We were both raised in ag and cattle was familiar. Twenty years ago, we had a plan. Our plan was to build a cow/calf herd that would support us. The second part of our plan was to buy and pay for small farms. It's easier to come up with money for smaller farms than for larger farms. According to our plan, once we had enough small farms paid for, we would sell them and buy one large farm.

When we started we bought OLD OLD cows. Most cattlemen don't like to keep cows 10 years old or older. But, I have a couple cows that are almost 20 years old that are still raising a calf every year. It paid off to let them keep producing income. When you sell a cow, she sells at a slaughter price which is much much less than a young cow. So, when you sell an old cow, you get far less for her than you pay for a new cow. The best way around this, economically, is to keep the cow as long as she produces and try to grow to keep your own replacement heifers.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

So, we bought the old cows that no one wanted as long as they looked fairly healthy, even thin. As long as they weren't sick.

KEY POINT: If we bought a cow in those days, she must have a calf on the ground AND a calf in the belly. If not we didn't buy her. The reason we did that was you are buying a cow plus two calf crops for one money. The calf can be sold, calve out the cow for the second calf, and sell it. 

Once we had a small herd of mutts that were all different crossed up breeds and sizes and colors, we sold them all, and the calves and bought good quality young Herefords. 

Another key point is that we sacrificed. We had anything we needed but we did not spend on anything we didn't need. We made sure to watch our money and we always saved a certain percentage of EVERY calf or cow sold to go toward buying land.

There are a few things every person should have if considering cattle. 1. Stock trailer, even if it is ugly and rusty as long as the floor is solid and the sides will hold an animal. 2. a working chute and some type of head gate. It is a must. 3. vet box with certain necessary items. 

Vet box should have syringes (we use the gun syringes that can be loaded with several doses at a time- I use them on the goats as well), Blue Lotion, Iodine or Betadine, Scalpels and blades. We also keep anitbiotics on hand and getting close to calving, keep colostrum on hand. However, if a cow can't raise her own calf she gets sold.

Back to the beginning. The most important lesson if your cattle is for profit is to remember that NO cow or calf is a pet. They are a commodity or an asset. NEVER a pet. If one doesn't pay her way or produce or has problems, she goes and gets replace.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

The next thing we need to discuss is the Homesteading philosophy.

We prescribe to the ideal of Homesteading as it was 150 years ago. Today's homesteaders have changed the meaning to be one of philosophy which it wasn't. It was a lifestyle. The idea changed to make it a philosophy of life instead so that anyone could be a homesteader no matter what their involvement in rural or urban environment. That is okay. There's nothing wrong with that.

However, our idea of a homestead, as it was 150 years ago, is that it is not a philosophy but it is a lifestyle. One where a family carved out a place for themselves in a rural area to let the land support the family. Today's homesteaders believe that they must work to support the homestead. 

Both ways are fine. However, the major difference is that when you consider today's homesteading as a philosophy rather than lifestyle, it will most likely not be for profit.

Either you work to support the homestead or the homestead (and you) work to support the family. The first way is rarely profitable for many reasons. One is that they see all animals as pets and have trouble distinguishing between pets and assets.

With that aside.....

The point we are not at in our plan is that we are/were ready to sell our 5 farms which range in size from 40 to 160 acres and buy one large one. Up to this point we only used debt twice for temporary situations. Normally, we save and pay cash for land or anything else including vehicles, equipment, etc. Yes, cattle for profit can do that. 

However, our plans changed. We realized that although there were serious problems in out economy, ag lands did not suffer. Farm and ranch land keeps appreciating. SO, we know that our farm will double again in less than 10 years. So we will be keeping them and using Farm Credit to buy the big farm, then sell the small farms after they double in value again.

Back to the basics...

So, you want a cow/calf operation for profit. Starting out, you will most likely have to sell weanlings at auction to keep a cash flow. Later, you can branch out, after you learn more about cattle, and sell a finished beef product if you have the market.

We buy and feed no grain to the cattle. If they can't keep weight in the winter with hay, they go to town. Feed will eat up profits almost as fast as vet bills. Learn to vet. 

We do buy sulfur salt blocks and loose mineral. In early spring when grass is lush and the danger of grass tetany is high you need high magnesium mineral.

The basics you need to learn to cut costs. Learn how to give injections. Learn how to castrate. Learn how to pull a calf. Learn what vaccinations you need in your area. Also have a good deworming schedule in place. Preferably twice a year, but once in some areas will work.

Try to avoid barn lots as much as possible. Make it one of your goals to be able to own/rent enough ground to keep cattle on pasture year round.

Barn lots are referred to as "dry lots". A lot of cattlemen bring the cows into dry lots to calve in the winter. They usually have the highest mortality rates as well as the highest vet bills. Dry lots are usually anything but dry in winter. Wet soil is the best breeding ground for bacteria. Calves do not do well with high levels of bacteria.

One key to successful calving is low stress for the cow. That means no standing around watching and trying to help. That stresses the cow. Also, a cow's natural instinct is to get away from the herd to calve. She can't do that in a dry lot. That adds stress. Stress is one of the biggest reasons for calving problems. Reduce it. Have her on pasture.

Along those lines, in most areas of the country, if there are valleys, dry ditches, or trees for protection, a cow/calf will be fine. THey are hardy animals. The last thing you want to do is put them in a barn or loafing shed. If you have them pack into a loafing shed in the winter, you will experience a lot of respiratory problems. The heat and moisture causes a lot of cases of pneumonia. These days, you rarely see people using them the way they once did. If you have one or two cows, that's different. But we're discussing a cow/calf operation that will be much more than one or two cows.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

The best place to buy cattle for a cow/calf operation is the auction/sale barn/livestock exchange.

Until you learn, have a knowledgeable cattleman go with you to help you pick the cows and to help with the bidding. Starting out, you're better going with a cow that has a calf on the ground and one in the belly. Starting out, it's okay to buy old knowing you'll have her for about a year at most.

In the beginning, you will notice that the auctioneer and/or owner of the sale barn will work harder getting higher bids for some people vs other people. In our local sale barn, we've taken all our calves there over the last 20 years. We've also bought 3 of our farms at the farm auctions that the sale barn owner auctioned. We've been to several other of his farm auctions and ran the bidding up, not intentionally, just weren't always the high bidder. So, I would say we have a good relationship with him. He takes care of us when we sell calves. He works hard in the sale ring to get top dollar. 

Get to know your sale barn owner, auctioneer, without being a pest. 

Don't show up at the sale barn only the day you want to buy. Go to every sale watching, learning, keeping track of bidding, pricing, etc. Become a familiar face. Talk to people, but for goodness sake put on no airs. We country people see right through it. lol We get easily irritated when people try to pretend they know what's going on when they don't. We tend to help those that admit they don't know what's going on before we will help those that pretend or put on airs.

When at the sale barn pay attention. Some animals have been "preg" checked by the vet on staff and they announce if she is "open" (not pregnant), or if she is bred and in what period of gestation, i.e. 1, 2, or 3.

Old cows and bulls selling for slaughter will usually be open and selling by the "cwt" (hundredweight). In other words they are selling at $136.00 for a 1200 pound cow. Same with young bred cows and heifers or steers. If you have a bred cow selling for $136.00 at 1200 pounds, and are high bidder, you will pay $1632.00 for that cow because she is sold by the hundredweight (CWT). So, 1200 pounds divided by 100 is 12, times $136 equals $1632. Or 1.36 per pound. But they don't go by inividual pounds.

When cows have a calf on the ground they usually sell the pair "for one money." That means that if they say "1900 for one money", they mean that you get the cow and the calf for a total of $1900.

Some calves sell by the head and some sell by weight. If it is a young bucket calf, they will usually sell for one price by the head. If the calf is larger and/or a weanling or bigger, they sell by the hundredweight.

KNOW how much you are bidding.

They will also sell choice if there are several in the group... sometimes. If they announce selling by choice meaning high bidder can take the animal of his choice and or all of them for that many times the money.

When you buy the animals, it is usually easier and sometimes cheaper to let the vet on staff vaccinate, deworm, castrate, etc. before taking them home. If you can always have the cow/heifer preg checked again. If they announce a bred cow/heifer in the sale ring, have her preg checked to verify it. If she comes back as not bred, then you are not obligated to take her home and they should refund your purchase price... ALWAYS have them preg checked no matter what they announce in the sale ring.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

Since it was suggested that this be handled like a series of lessons, I have no idea what way to go next. So, if anyone has a specific question about cow/calf operations for profit, please ask and we'll go from there. Otherwise, I'll wait and try to come up with something later.

The only reason I agreed to do this was to maybe share what little knowledge and experience I have for those that don't realize it can still be done and want to learn. I'm always happy to help anyone that wants a simplified rural way of life, especially one in which they wish to raise a family, the best environment, in my opinion, for raising a family.

So many times, I've had people almost get angry with me and tell me that no one can get into farming/ranching in this day and age unless they inherit the land or money, or both. So, the other reason I'm willing to share is to show that they are wrong. If anyone wants to do it, they can. 

You can be making minimum wage and still start on a road to having a cow/calf operation that will support you.

It all boils down to one thing.... priorities.


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## sassafras manor (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks for the first few lessons. I look forward to see how this progresses. We started with 3 head 4 years ago and have grown to 12 head along with an assortment of pasture raised poultry (turkeys & chickens) and pastured hogs. We run the farm on a seperate checking account and moving forward slowly we have been able to accumulate equipment. This winter we hope to add sorting and handling chutes. The past 3 years we bought bottle calves or low weight beef calves and finshed on pasture with very limited grain. This past spring I bought a couple heifers - 1 angus and 1 white park - with the intention of starting a breeding program as we expand our pastures. Thanks in advance for sharing the knowledge!
Matt


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## avrugu (Jan 17, 2012)

I learned a lot already. looking forward to more and thanks


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

PaulNKS said:


> The best place to buy cattle for a cow/calf operation is the auction/sale barn/livestock exchange.
> 
> When you buy the animals, it is usually easier and sometimes cheaper to let the vet on staff vaccinate, deworm, castrate, etc. before taking them home. If you can always have the cow/heifer preg checked again. If they announce a bred cow/heifer in the sale ring, have her preg checked to verify it. If she comes back as not bred, then you are not obligated to take her home and they should refund your purchase price... ALWAYS have them preg checked no matter what they announce in the sale ring.


 I've never set in a sale barn that the sale vet wasn't the one that preg checked the cows.


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## WJMartin (Nov 2, 2011)

Thank you so much for starting this thread.

Perhaps you could expand a bit on culling as this is a difficult thing for newbies to do. I only have two bred cows, thier yearling calves and a bred heifer so culling isn't a prioity yet but I know it is down the road. I'm planning to feed the family and maybe sell for butcher.

I'm still making decisions about what I'm trying to do with the cattle, my next big decision will be how to rebreed, do I buy a bull or AI, stay with registered stock within my breed, Dexters, or go cross for alittle bit bigger beef but keep the gentle & calm easy keeper. I have read and been told that for a first time heifer having them covered with a bull is better, easier than AI. Is that your experience? I've been told and read that you can/should bred heifers as early as possible, around 15 months for Dexters, but have a friend that waits until they are three years old. When do you breed? I can see that some/alot of breeding age should depend on the type of pasture you have available for nutrition. 
Speaking of pasture, do you have your forage tested for protein content? I'm considering having that done so I can understand how much nutrition the cows are actually recieving, do you think this is worthwhile and if so who do you contact to have such testing done. Do you use rotational grazing or just open field? What type of forage do you have? How do you maintain your fields? Those of us who have 60 acres have to manage things differently than those that have large acreage but some things are the same.
Looking forward to more info coming. Thanks.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

WJMartin said:


> Thank you so much for starting this thread.
> 
> Perhaps you could expand a bit on culling as this is a difficult thing for newbies to do. I only have two bred cows, thier yearling calves and a bred heifer so culling isn't a prioity yet but I know it is down the road. I'm planning to feed the family and maybe sell for butcher.
> 
> ...


It is easier to let a bull do the the work than to AI. But either way you go, the most important thing is that the bull is appropriate for heifers. If you AI, the bull would likely be registered and have a known birthweight and EPD for calving ease. (EPD = Expected Progeny Difference, a prediction of performance based on extensive data analysis of related animals. All the major breeds have EPD for traits such as birthweight, weaning weight, milk, calving ease, and some even have them for disposition and carcass traits)

When to breed heifers is more a matter of size than age. They should be at least 60% of their mature size before breeding. Some breeds mature later than others, but most breeds can be bred to have their first calf around 2 years of age.


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## Slev (Nov 29, 2003)

Boy, thanks for doing this, like others have said. I've learned so much already.. !


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## SCRancher (Jan 11, 2011)

Interesting thread and thanks for it.

I bought 80 acres with the intent of building a house on it and raising some cows - I can't build a house on it due to some access/power issues but started with the cattle 4 years ago and have learned a lot.

One thing I learned is I would rather be messing with cows then programming computers in the last year I have been thinking about doing what you have done - buying a different piece of property that I can build on or that has a house on it to be able to have more cows.

My goal would be to keep buying property and adding cattle to them until I get enough cattle to support myself in a "retirement" from programming.

I have a 10 year goal on doing this - I plan on continuing programming for the next 10 years or so until my youngest is through with college - by that time I am hoping I have well over 100 head of cattle that would at current prices as long as I have no debt provide a modest living.

My questions with multiple farms:
1) how do you manage the cattle - continuous grazing or rotational grazing? 
2) how far apart (time and distance) becomes too much of a problem?
3) do you have cattle handling facilities at each farm or do you have facilities that can be easily moved from farm to farm? (I know when I bought my chute I could have ordered it as trailer-able for an extra 1k)
4) how often do you visit each farm? Daily?, Weekly?, less/more?

I am considering purchasing a farm (not to live on) that is 1 hour from my current house and 45 minutes from my existing farm - I only found the farm a week ago but price of the farm is roughly 1/2 of the price of farms that are close to my existing farm. I would just have to deal with the backlash from my wife - we really want to move out of town into a rural setting not too far from my son's school (30 minutes tops). - ah decisions decisions!


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

Allen W said:


> I've never set in a sale barn that the sale vet wasn't the one that preg checked the cows.


Yes, the sale barns have their own vet on staff... usually. Actually, they contract with a local vet. 

However, what I've run into is that a cow may come into the ring and it be announced that she is bred (in any period.) Then when I've asked for a preg check, upon this second check, she may be open. It is the same vet on staff doing it both times, but whey the discrepancy? Who knows? The second preg check is just to verify that she is bred and that a mistake wasn't made in the ring or announced in error. It's just a little insurance. 

In the beginning, we didn't have a bull. So, buying a cow with a calf on the ground and one in the belly solved that problem for awhile.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

WJMartin said:


> Perhaps you could expand a bit on culling as this is a difficult thing for newbies to do. I only have two bred cows, thier yearling calves and a bred heifer so culling isn't a prioity yet but I know it is down the road. I'm planning to feed the family and maybe sell for butcher.


Culling is the process of removing any asset that doesn't pay it's way. If a cow doesn't conceive, if a cow aborts, if a cow can't raise her calf, if a cow isn't an "easy keeper" (meaning she has to be able to keep weight, in the winter, with a calf, on hay), or any other problem that interferes with her producing a revenue. The biggest problem with some people that convert form city to rural, is they think of cattle as pets. That's fine... UNLESS your working toward a cattle for profit operation. Then you have to see them as any other asset and when that asset's gone past it's useful production, it gets sold and replaced.



> I'm still making decisions about what I'm trying to do with the cattle, my next big decision will be how to rebreed, do I buy a bull or AI, stay with registered stock within my breed, Dexters, or go cross for alittle bit bigger beef but keep the gentle & calm easy keeper. I have read and been told that for a first time heifer having them covered with a bull is better, easier than AI. Is that your experience?


Mother nature always does better than man. With a person doing the AI, you will average 50% on a first breeding and settling. Many times it will be better. The average for pasture breeding (meaning with a bull) runs about 80%. However, both those rates are usually higher, in my opinion, but pasture bred has always been better for us. With that said, you have to be able to justify the expense of a bull in terms of purchase, amount of grass he'll consume that could be going to another cow, etc. If I had 3 or 4 cows, I would either do AI, borrow a bull, or something along those lines. I used to have a good registered bull. When I wasn't using him, I would lease him out for 60 days at a time. Not a lot of people do this now. But, it was only when I had another bull that was the primary herd sire.



> I've been told and read that you can/should bred heifers as early as possible, around 15 months for Dexters, but have a friend that waits until they are three years old. When do you breed? I can see that some/alot of breeding age should depend on the type of pasture you have available for nutrition.


I honestly know nothing about the small/mini breeds. For a typical beef breed, most cattlemen breed to have that heifer calve at 24 months. I breed to have her calve at 28 months. This would be typical with most large beef breeds such as Angus, Hereford, Limousine, Longhorn, Saler, Maine-Anjou, etc. The reason I give them that extra 4 months is because it is just enough time to let them finish developing their mothering instincts. I seem to have less problems getting a first calf heifer to claim the calf, or clean it adequately, etc. 



> Speaking of pasture, do you have your forage tested for protein content?


No. Never have. However, if I was worried, it would be with the hay. Protein content will drop in hay for several reasons. One example is brome grass. Once brome reaches the stage to be cut for hay, every day that is delayed, the grass will drop in protein. If you are baling your own, not a problem as you will bale it when it is prime. However, if you are buying from someone that is in the business of selling hay, they will normally save the earlier hay for their own use and sell the hay they bale later. By doing that, he is keeping the most nutritious hay for himself and selling the hay that is lower in protein. In that case, if you think it was baled in late July/early August, instead of in June,yes, you may need to test it. Personally, I'm frugal. You have to be in order to make a profit. So, unless I was almost certain there was a problem I would not have it tested and if I did, it would be only for the protein level. BUT.... I would also not buy grass hay baled that late in the summer. We never use alfalfa... only grass hay. ALfalfa is a different story. You can get more than one cutting of alfalfa in some areas and so it may be fine to bale late in the season.



> I'm considering having that done so I can understand how much nutrition the cows are actually recieving, do you think this is worthwhile and if so who do you contact to have such testing done.


If you have just about any kind of good grass, there should be no worry. If you cows lose weight on grass, there's usually another issue causing it such as parasite overload (worms), or lack of grass.



> Do you use rotational grazing or just open field? What type of forage do you have? How do you maintain your fields? Those of us who have 60 acres have to manage things differently than those that have large acreage but some things are the same.


I've never used rotational grazing in the sense that most homesteaders consider it. The cows right now are on 160 acres, open. For winter, they will go to the 90 acres, open. If all our acres were in one farm, then yes, we would do some type of rotational grazing.

How do we maintain fields? Historically, we've always sprayed weeds only when they reach a certain point, which maybe every 2 years or every 5 years. Some ground we've never sprayed. However, a lot of homesteaders are adamantly opposed, but... if you are raising cattle for profit you MUST spray at times. If not, the weeds take over the grass, cattle won't eat weeds, you reduce the amount of grass that you could be grazing, reducing your revenues. We don't always fertilize, and certainly not as much as we should. After having such an unusually dry winter, we didn't want to risk the expense of fertilizer this year, knowing that in a drought, fertilizer does little good, many times.. (not always).


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

SCRancher said:


> My questions with multiple farms:
> 1) how do you manage the cattle - continuous grazing or rotational grazing?


They are on 160 acres for the summer. For winter they get moved to a 92 acre pasture. 


> 2) how far apart (time and distance) becomes too much of a problem?


It depends. Our 5 are too far apart, in three counties. From the 160, it is 22 miles to 40 acres, 17 miles to the 92 acres and 35 miles to two of the 40's, etc. In the winter, it doesn't work too well if you have cattle on them all. One 40 that is 22 miles was bought just as an investment. All our farms were bought at auction. That 40 was cheap enough that we knew within a year to two years, it would double in value. We will may sell it this fall for almost double what we paid for it 3 years ago. It is half timber and half hay ground, but we've always rented it to a neighbor. It isn't bad if they are far apart, if they are just hay ground. But if they are pastured, you spend a lot of money in fuel driving and checking livestock.



> 3) do you have cattle handling facilities at each farm or do you have facilities that can be easily moved from farm to farm? (I know when I bought my chute I could have ordered it as trailer-able for an extra 1k)


No. We carry portable panels. We have a couple neighbors that have a set of panels, and a loading chute that are on wheels. It all unfolds into a big sorting pen. They have a hitch and you just pull it down the road. Sometimes I'll borrow one from a neighbor, but usually, we just trailer the portable panels. As far as the squeeze chute and headgate.... It is portable but we don't have the under carriage for it. It stays put. Cattle get worked before being moved for the summer, and if needed, again in the fall after being moved.


> 4) how often do you visit each farm? Daily?, Weekly?, less/more?


It depends. If there's cattle, every 2 or 3 days, if we can. If it's jut hay ground, once every week to two weeks or longer.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

Since the questions of pasture maintenance were raised, maybe it should be addressed. 

In this part of Kansas, it is rolling hills, timber, creeks, pastures, crop ground, etc. We have an annual average rainfall of 42". 

Most people have preferred brome for pasture and hay grasses. Not us. I'll explain. Brome is not native or indigenous to this part of the country. Most grasses here if not brome, are Fescue or native grasses.

For us, brome grass requires way too much fertilizer. Also, when it gets hot and dry in the summer, brome is the first to go dormant and many times will stay dormant the rest of the year. In many droughty summers, people I know are feeding hay in August or even July because their brome goes dormant. But, our fescue and native grasses remain green and growing.

Fescue is not an evil grass as some portray it. Like any type of grass it takes maintenance. Fescue has an endophyte that can cause problems, however, in 20 years, we've only had one case of fescue foot. The key... if you have Fescue, keep the grass below 4 to 6 inches and you'll never have a problem. If you can't graze it that heavily, mow it. The only time fescue is a serious problem is with brood mares. It can cause three problems. 1. it can cause a mare to slip a foal late in gestation. 2. if a mare does carry to term the sack can be too think for her to be able to break and allow the foal to take his first breaths. 3. if a mare carries to foaling and if the sack breaks, she may not have any milk. As far as geldings and studs, fescue is not a problem... only with broodmares.

Personally, we prefer fescue and native grasses, especially bluestem. These grasses take less fertilizer and are much hardier than brome. 

In this area you rarely see timothy or orchardgrass.

With beef cattle everything boils down to the profit/loss ---- revenuse/expenses. You have to know your soils, what it will support, stocking rates for various grasses in your part of the country, etc. 

In the same way cattle is an asset, grasses are an asset. You have to take care of the grasses if you want the cattle to profit. You should select grasses that are native to your area (in most cases), grasses that require the least fertilizer, hardy, etc. 

The only time you should let fescue grow tall is if you are stockpiling for winter. For those that are unfamiliar, stockpilling is letting it grow tall. Not cutting or baling it. Then after the freezes and other grasses die, stockpiled fescue can have some of the highest protein content of any grasses or hay. Also, at this point, endophytes are no longer an issue.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Allen W said:


> I've never set in a sale barn that the sale vet wasn't the one that preg checked the cows.


Indeed the barn's vet (usually the local vet that _everyone_ uses, btw) is usually the one to preg, whether you're the seller or the buyer. But the seller won't always _ask_ (pay) for a preg. He might send them in just "knowing" that these cattle are open or bred, as the case may be. If you absolutely have to have bred cows, have them pregged before you leave. Paul's right. You won't have to pay if you bought what was supposed to be a bred cow and find out she's open before you even load her.



PaulNKS said:


> When we started we bought OLD OLD cows. Most cattlemen don't like to keep cows 10 years old or older. But, I have a couple cows that are almost 20 years old that are still raising a calf every year.


I just wanted to echo this! 
The way it's worked out for us so far is that we've been able to collect bucket calves (most feedlots, and some ranches, don't want to have to deal with bums, so they'll just give them away to whichever of the help wants them). So our personal breeding cattle are all gentle because they were hand-raised. 

BUT, when the market starts to drop, we plan on doing the exact same as you did; buy OLD OLD cows. A cow can be productive for far longer than most people realize.
We used to run a write-off ranch where the owner wouldn't sell his old cows. No teeth? That's OK, we ran them on corn stalks all winter and they'd GAIN on the corn that was left behind. Can't walk? No problem. Makes it easier for the bull to catch her. 
Most of our cows there died of old age. DH would always pull her Bang's tag and call the vet to see how old she was. One was 26 and had died calving. The calf was fine and is now our oldest cow. We figured she has exactly the genetics we want; hardy ones!


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## WJMartin (Nov 2, 2011)

Thanks for all the info.

I agree with the spraying, I probably wouldn't have until this year, for some reason I think every dormant seed available has sprung up, I've been mowing but it just isn't doing much to help in some spots and I have some brush issues where we've cut down cedars. I did fertilize this spring, a first in 25 years, so that might be part of the problem but the soil tests came back very nitrogen defiecent. I wasn't surprised, alot of the pasture had been used for haying and we have clay soil.

I have not secured my hay for the winter yet. Last year we bought and transported from a relative about a 5 hour drive, brome, thanks for the info on that, explains alot. I don't want to do that this year for several reasons but haven't secured local hay yet, what I fed last year was very low quality and I supplimented with grain, the advantage of small cattle, they don't eat alot. What I hear from alot of custom haying folks is, they don't want to cut until late July or so until the grasses have full growth to make more hay, not neccessarily concerned about protein content so I should have the hay tested for protein until I learn the ins and outs of quality hay and not feed grain unless neccessary. Did I get that right?

I had not really considered raising cattle for profit until reading this and another thread, it would be great to pay off the farm, or at least break even. So far we have butchered the two that I've culled instead of selling and I have a yearling steer that we've planned on butchering, decisions.

The bred heifer I have is angus/holstein, depending on how she does with her calf and the amount of milk she gives, I'm thinking of getting one or two babies for her to raise and sell them when weaned. She is bred to reg. angus, due in Dec. hoping for a heifer to start a small herd of cross breeds. She is probably one that you would cull, didn't breed with two different bulls, had her vet checked and she had cists, treated and exposed to bull #3 and finally settled, but she is the first one through a fence and is flightly, hard to handle. If she gives me a good calf I may keep her one more year but she will be culled as soon as I can afford to replace her. But she's just so darn pretty and when she throws her head up and you know she's going to make a break for it, well, I could almost see a saddle up on her. 

I boarded a friend's bull last winter, reg. Dexter, and if possible I will again this winter, so far he has thrown very nice calves, just waiting to see what type calves my cows drop from him. 

I have a bag to put vet supplies in but haven't managed to put anything in it yet so I really appreciate your list of supplies, that is something I really have to do since I'm on calf watch. Thanks for the reminder. If there is anything else you can think of to keep on hand please post.

What type of schedule do you use for preventive health? Vacc, worming, fly stuff, ect.


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## richmond1273 (Oct 4, 2011)

i know absolutely nothing about cows and i really appreciate the time you have put into this thread. i was wondering if you could go into how you handle having a bull. at what size herd did you decide it was worth having one full time? do you keep him with the herd full time? i assume you don't want a bull breeding with its daughter so do you put all the offspring from one bull in another pasture with a different bull? thanks


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

I would questiion the validity of buying old cows. It costs the same to feed an old cow often times more and more often than not they wean a significantly lighter calf. Most cows being sold are sold for a reason and it is not because they are the most productive and well behaved. Just be warned sometimes what to get isn't what you thought you were buying. Be extremely cautious buying old cows that are fat. you will not be able to afford to keep them in that condition. Excellant advice on take someone knowledgeable when you buy.

Paul, You must not have been around in the 80's when farm land values fell like a rock. I hope you are rigght about your farms being worth double in 10 years, then so will mine, but you don't KNOW that anymore than people KNEW that housing prices were going to keep going up.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

bruce2288 said:


> I would questiion the validity of buying old cows. It costs the same to feed an old cow often times more and more often than not they wean a significantly lighter calf. Most cows being sold are sold for a reason and it is not because they are the most productive and well behaved. Just be warned sometimes what to get isn't what you thought you were buying. Be extremely cautious buying old cows that are fat. you will not be able to afford to keep them in that condition. Excellant advice on take someone knowledgeable when you buy.
> 
> Paul, You must not have been around in the 80's when farm land values fell like a rock. I hope you are rigght about your farms being worth double in 10 years, then so will mine, but you don't KNOW that anymore than people KNEW that housing prices were going to keep going up.


An old cow doesn't cost any more to feed than a young one if you don't grain. We don't grain. If a cow can't keep her weight she goes back to town. We only bought old cows in the beginning because they were so much cheaper. The ONLY time we would grain is if that old cow couldn't keep her weight and we wanted to put just enough on her to sell her. Even if she took a hit, we still had the two calves from her.

Cattle can be productive into their late teens. Most cattlemen think they must be sold by the time they are 8 to 10 years old. 

I was around in the 80's. Land didn't drop in all places, not where I was.

If you look at real estate trends... farm and ranch land does not drop like residential properties... usually. Through this last economic downturn, farm land continued to rise.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

WJMartin said:


> I agree with the spraying, I probably wouldn't have until this year, for some reason I think every dormant seed available has sprung up, I've been mowing but it just isn't doing much to help in some spots and I have some brush issues where we've cut down cedars. I did fertilize this spring, a first in 25 years, so that might be part of the problem but the soil tests came back very nitrogen defiecent. I wasn't surprised, alot of the pasture had been used for haying and we have clay soil.


Most homesteaders think they'll get sick and die if they ever use a spray. However, mowing will not stop or kill weeds from taking over pastures. All it does it stop them from going to seed. A lot of those weeds will keep putting back out at the root. Also, some seeds can be in the ground for years before germinating. One example is thistle... my mind's drawing a blank on the type. They spread and one bloom can easily produce 400,000 seeds that can lie dormant in the ground for (if I remember correctly) 4 or 5 years before germinating. The county's Noxious Weed Department told me that Sericea Lespedeza can lie dormant in the ground for 30 years. By the way, if you cut an Eastern Red Cedar below the lowest green limb, the cedar will not sprout back out from the stump as many other trees will do. Just an FYI.

If you are raising cattle for profit, your grass is one of your biggest assets. Without it, you have no profitable operation. It has to be cared for.



> I have not secured my hay for the winter yet. Last year we bought and transported from a relative about a 5 hour drive, brome, thanks for the info on that, explains alot. I don't want to do that this year for several reasons but haven't secured local hay yet, what I fed last year was very low quality and I supplimented with grain, the advantage of small cattle, they don't eat alot. What I hear from alot of custom haying folks is, they don't want to cut until late July or so until the grasses have full growth to make more hay, not neccessarily concerned about protein content so I should have the hay tested for protein until I learn the ins and outs of quality hay and not feed grain unless neccessary. Did I get that right?


 yes. However, once you learn what grasses make good hay, and if you know when your hay was baled, you may not need to test.



> The bred heifer I have is angus/holstein,


When running a cow/calf operation for profit, one of the first things you'll learn is that you want as little "dairy" in your genetics as possible. They don't gain as well, and they don't sell too well at the sale barns. BUT,... a good dairy cow is good if you need to have a nurse cow for a couple calves as you pointed out. 



> What type of schedule do you use for preventive health? Vacc, worming, fly stuff, ect.


Vaccinations depend on your area. Here, we vaccinate against black leg, lepto, and red nose. Red nose is airborn and can be devastating. I have a good friend about 5 miles away. His neighbor across the road bought a load of calves. My friend suddenly started losing calves. As soon as they realized it was rednose, they started looking around. The neighbor across the road had the rednose come in with his calves, and of course, he also lost calves.

Lepto can cause abortions and prevent conceptions.

Most of the work is done in the fall and in the spring. I deworm both times. For cattle I use a pour on. I go back and forth between products. If you use one product every time, you'll develop resistance. I vaccinate once a year, in the spring. At both times, calves are "cut" (castrated). We do all the work ourselves and it goes fairly quickly. 

Fly control isn't too much of an issue since we pasture year round.... another advantage of having enough ground to avoid barn lots. During the fly season we switch our salt blocks from pure salt to sulfur salt. The sulfur does help. But, I'll get into that more when talking about nutrition.

Many people will use ear tags. Remember, I know nothing about the small or mini breeds, just beef. You never use just one fly ear tag. You always use two if the box says to use two. Otherwise, you won't see as much result as you want or need. Many cattlemen try to cut expense by using just one fly tag instead of two and then claim the ear tags don't work half the time.

You can also use "backrubs" which in times past were soaked with oil. Today's backrubs have a "powder" that is a fly repellant. When the cow walks under it, it "dusts" her back and helps with the flies. They work great. 

Then you also have pour on products for fly control. These have to be repeated during the fly season, several times and you have to be able to get the animal in a chute so that you can pour it. I'm not a fan of these.

Like I said, we don't have much fly trouble. About all we do is the sulfur salt blocks.

By the way,... you don't trim the hooves of cattle like you do with goats, horses, etc.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

richmond1273 said:


> i was wondering if you could go into how you handle having a bull. at what size herd did you decide it was worth having one full time?


Good points. The decision of when to keep a bull is going to vary. Keep in mind this is just my opinion and the way I would do it. If I had enough land and grass that it would NOT take away from another cow, and if I could monetarily justify buying that bull, I would. However, If I only have 4 or 5 cows and can't afford to give up the grass for a bull, and didn't have the extra hay, I would AI. But, if you are that close on grass, you need rethink your cattle for profit plan. You need to have access to more ground.



> do you keep him with the herd full time? i assume you don't want a bull breeding with its daughter so do you put all the offspring from one bull in another pasture with a different bull? thanks


In the beginning, yes, he stays with the herd full time, year round. Why would you not want a bull breeding his daughter? They aren't human. LOL Sorry.... 

Actually, the best genetics usually come from "line breeding", meaning breeding sires to daughters, granddaughters, etc. The best genes of the "family" are enhanced by line breeding. However, keep in mind that you can also enhance the worst of the family genetics. So, both animals need to be good tempered, small birthweights but fast gainers, good conformation, good feet, good brisket, etc.... 

The Line 1 Herefords came from a herd that had been closed for over 60 years. The progeny from that herd became the top lines in the Hereford industry and were the most sought after. So, a closed herd (meaning no new blood) can be the best for you. It also means that you don't have to quarantine new animals or bring other unwanted problems into your herd.

As far as whether to leave the bull with the cows year round or just seasonal...

***If you are going into cattle for profit, you can't do it if you have to borrow the money for the land and the cattle.*** You must already have either the land or cattle debt free. 

If the cattle are paid for and they are going to have to pay for the land, if you leave the bull with the cows, you theoretically get an extra calf crop every 4 years... practically, probably 5 years.

So, let's say you have 80 cows and you put the bull in seasonally. You have bought a new farm. If the same price held, and every cow had a calf every year, you sell at weaning. You would average $256,000 over that 4 years. BUT... if you leave the bull with them year round, you will gross an extra $64,000 over the four years. That extra money will put a nice dent into the principal on that new land. However, you will have losses. You will lose an occasional calf. You'll lose an occasional cow. This example is strictly in a perfect world. 

But, once you have that land paid for and the cows producing, you will want to plan the breeding. When you sell at a sale barn, groups of calves usually bring more money and sell better than a single or just 2 or 3 calves sold together. The easiest way to plan that is to have the calves born as close in time as possible and ready to sell at the same time. They need to be uniform in type, size, and weights to sell as a group. But, I wouldn't do that until you get debt free and have a profit coming in.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

I was asked in a PM about weaning.

When is "weaned"? At our closest sale barn, in order for a calf to be considered "weaned", he must have been off the dam for at least 30 days. That's fine if you have the fencing to handle weaning calves. Usually an electric fence will not hold a calf you are trying to wean. 

When we sell, we sell them right off the mama and straight out of the pasture. Meaning they are sold at the time they should be weaned but are sold as not weaned. Your area will dictate which is more advantageous. Some areas, weaned sell better and some areas not. 

If you sell straight out of the pasture and right off the mama they are considered sold "green." We bring them in, separate the mama cows and turn them back out. Then we load the calves and go. We sell green calves.

Weaning is usually based on weight and not age as will many things with cattle. We try to sell at around 600 to 750 pounds. If you sell them too light, you're cheating yourself, but if you sell them too heavy, the price per hundredweight begins to drop. We've found the best selling, best prices to be in the 600 to 750 pound range for the type of calves we sell.

How long to reach that weight? It depends on a lot of factors. It depends on the weather, breed, quality of the dam, how well she milks, etc. Some will be ready in 6 months and others 9 or 10 months. If a cow doesn't give enough milk and it takes her calf too long, she gets replaced. 

A cow will come into heat about 3 weeks after calving and every 3 weeks after until bred. If I have a bull running full time and need that, I don't want that cow still trying to nurse a calf when she should be ready to already have her next calf. So, needs to be a good milk producer to get that calf to weight as soon as possible... not 9 or 10 months.


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## richmond1273 (Oct 4, 2011)

PaulNKS said:


> Why would you not want a bull breeding his daughter? They aren't human. LOL Sorry.... .


haha....i said i don't know much about cattle.....i don't know if you have any experience with keeping the bull separate but if you keep him with the herd does he seem to have a bit better manners? i am not expecting him to be docile but anything to have a better tempermant helps.

thanks again for all the great info


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

More on bull breeding daughters - keep in mind most breeds carry some genetic defects. It's an alphabet soup of abbreviations for them all, can't call them up right now. Linebreeding or closebreeding will make those genes show up if you have them. Still good to know you have them so you can go about eliminating the carriers, but that education will cost you some calves. 

My advice would be for a startup operation to AVOID linebreeding. Wait til you have your genetics where you want them. Most people don't start out with genetics that are good enough, or enough numbers, to close the herd. 

Kudos to PaulNKS for starting this thread. Some great info. presented overall. I would like to suggest adding some tips on evaluating cows - desirable traits to look for, deal breakers, etc. This thread is encouraging newbies to buy older cows, so let's help them avoid broken down old cull cows and find the good ones.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

MO_cows said:


> More on bull breeding daughters - keep in mind most breeds carry some genetic defects. It's an alphabet soup of abbreviations for them all, can't call them up right now. Linebreeding or closebreeding will make those genes show up if you have them. Still good to know you have them so you can go about eliminating the carriers, but that education will cost you some calves.
> 
> My advice would be for a startup operation to AVOID linebreeding. Wait til you have your genetics where you want them. Most people don't start out with genetics that are good enough, or enough numbers, to close the herd.


You are absolutely correct. I didn't start line breeding until AFTER I established my herd with Line 1 Hereford genetics. 



> I would like to suggest adding some tips on evaluating cows - desirable traits to look for, deal breakers, etc. This thread is encouraging newbies to buy older cows, so let's help them avoid broken down old cull cows and find the good ones.


Again, you're correct. My point in this thread was not to encourage people to buy aged cows. When asked to start this thread, I was asked to explain what worked for me. I grew up with farming/ranching on a large scale. I know cattle. I know what I like or don't like when I see it. 

I've also stated and should continue to state that if you don't KNOW cattle, then take someone knowledgeable with you when you buy. Not only will it help you avoid problems, but it will also help you learn about the bidding and the differences in CWT vs by the head, by the pair, etc. 

I do not encourage anyone to buy any cow or calf of any age without someone to offer advice unless they know cattle.

For us, older cows with BOTH a calf on the ground and in the belly was a cheap way to build our first herd together. But we both knew cattle. We've been around cattle for so long that sometimes we go on intuition more than anything visible.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

richmond1273 said:


> haha....i said i don't know much about cattle.....i don't know if you have any experience with keeping the bull separate but if you keep him with the herd does he seem to have a bit better manners? i am not expecting him to be docile but anything to have a better tempermant helps.
> 
> thanks again for all the great info


I don't know if I would say they have better manners keeping them with the herd. 

Just like any bull, you have to have a fence that will hold him. I've had bulls that would just walk right over a cattle panel. But, when you have an animal that is 2500+pounds, it takes a lot to hold him.

Also, you don't really want to expect any bull to be "gentle", unless you've worked with him from the time he was a calf. Even then, with any cattle you need to always realize there is inherent danger. 

The temperament of cattle vary by breed. Especially with bulls. For example. One of the most gentle of all cows will be the Jersey cow. However, one of the meanest of all bulls is the Jersey bull. I always thought that was odd. If there was ever a bull I wouldn't trust under any situation, it would be the Jersey.

So, talking about manners with cattle isn't cut and dried. Remember, cattle are not pets. I'm not concerned with whether they have manners. My only concern is that they aren't mean enough to want to kill you just because you glance at them. With that aside, my only concern is as with any asset.... if I take care of that asset, it will provide a revenue stream. Period. 

I've seen 200+ pound men in a pen working fairly easy going cattle, have a cow get them down and stomp them. Nothing worse than a mad mama of any kind. lol But, if a cow doesn't like you messin' with her baby, and if you are in the same pen, you are at her mercy, if she wants to let you live. The last man, was probably 6', 200 to 220 pounds, in a pen sorting cows and calves and a mama cow got him down. If his grown nephew hadn't pulled him out under the corral panel, he would be dead.

Many people new to rural life and cattle specifically still try to think of them as pets. They are not pets. What can be tame and gentle one moment CAN (but not usually) turn on you in a heartbeat... 

So, when it comes to cattle and manners, there is no such thing except when you are working very closely with one as in preparing for the show ring and that is different world altogether.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

Time to get started on my haying today. Next time, I'll go into either fertlizing/spraying, what we do in droughts, watering, etc., or funding and finding money for your projects.

Have a great day.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

P.S. If I can remember, I'll start taking some pics.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Is the use of goats to browse weeds a suitable replacement for spraying?

You started with a lot of cattle knowledge, so escalating your herd size as fast as possible made sense. What herd size should a newbie try to maintain while getting their feet wet? There's economy of scale, and then there's the fact that mistakes are more expensive when they affect a whole herd. Other professions go to college, I think with farming I should take it easy the first three years and chock the expense up to my education.

What would you recommend as a start-up budget, excluding the cost of land?


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

Goats are excellent at brush clearing, but I believe they do require some intensive fencing. I think they'd be far preferable to spraying chemicals, particularly around livestock.

My advice to people just starting with cattle is to begin with a couple of commercial steers (NOT from a sale barn if you're new to cattle); you don't have to worry about heats, breeding, calving, bulls, and all that goes with a breeding operation. And if you decide you don't like cattle after dealing with a couple of steers, you can haul them to the processor and fill your freezer, and perhaps make a few bucks on the beef.

Google "rent a goat" and you'll get information on using them to clear brush and fencelines.

Sorry, can't help with the startup estimates.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

G. Seddon said:


> Goats are excellent at brush clearing, but I believe they do require some intensive fencing.


I'm actually planning on starting with goats/sheep, so I should already have goat fencing up.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

Goats are good brush management BUT, they will not adequately control weeds in a pasture. You will need to spray if you are going the route of a cow/calf operation for profit. It's that simple. Goats will pick and choose. They don't just go in and clear all the weeds like some people think they would.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I took a lot of what Paul wrote and summed it up for your reading...


The first thing is to decide what you want to do. Do you want a beef operation such as a cow/calf operation or do you want to provide finished meat in addition to your cow/calf operation?

Type of cattle operations:
â¢	Cow/Calf
o	A sector of the beef cattle industry where cows and bulls produce offspring to sell to the stocker, backgrounder or feedlot for beef production. As a rule only 20% of heifers are kept as replacements; 80% of the calves are sold. Breeds are often mixed resulting in crossbred or "mutt" cows being used.
â¢	Stocker
o	Young growing cattle (of at least 6 months of age and weaned) that are used primarily for beef are put on pasture to grow prior to being finished in a feedlot.
â¢	Backgrounder
o	Cattle of weaning age, both steers and heifers that are fed a forage-based diet (of hay and silage) for several months or until reaching 800 to 900 lb., prior to being finished on a high-energy ration.
â¢	Replacement Cows
o	Selling pregnant cows and cows with nursing calves. The best success is selling proven cows that can produce calves every year.
â¢	Registered Breed Stock
o	Selling registered bulls and cows specializing in a breed and sometimes two breeds to sell cross breeds.
â¢	Finished Beef
o	Selling live beef for processing and retail sale.


Most cattle operations do not finish cattle except what they put on their own table. In a typical cow/calf operation you sell the weanlings. If you are selling to a niche market then it may pay for you to finish to slaughter. However, in a typical cow/calf operation, you have the potential for higher profit with lower risk. 

In most areas weanlings sell best at about 600 to 750 pounds, over that and you start to get docked. Also, if you sell calves that are too well fed, you get docked. Backgrounders want to be able to add weight. They can't do that if the calf is already too "fleshy".

Some startups start by buying old, old cows. Most cattlemen don't like to keep cows 10 years old or older. Sometimes cows that are almost 20 years old are less expensive and still raising a calf every year. It pays off to let them keep producing income. When you sell a cow, she sells at a slaughter price which is much less than a young cow. When you sell an old cow you get less for her than you pay for a new younger cow. It is economic to keep the cow as long as she produces and try to grow your own replacement heifers. Buy the old cows that no one wants as long as they looked fairly healthy, even thin, as long as they arenât sick. Another startup idea is to buy abandoned or âbucket calvesâ on the cheap or they might even be free at the auction barn. Bucket calves might be more trouble, but it is an inexpensive way to start a herd.

KEY POINT â Try to buy a cow with a calf on the ground AND a calf in the belly. That way you are buying a cow plus two calf crops for âone-moneyâ. The calf can be sold, calve out the cow for the second calf, and sell it. 

At this point you might have a small herd of mutts with all different crossed up breeds, sizes and colors. This might be a good time to sell out and focus on quality cattle, maybe of a certain breed like Herefords or Angus, then crossing them to get âBaldiesâ for hybrid vigor. Breed preferences can be regional or just what type of cattle a person likes.

Equipment â 
1.	Stock trailer, even if it is ugly and rusty as long as the floor is solid and the sides will hold an animal
2.	A working chute
3.	Some type of head gate is a must
4.	Vet box with the necessary items - Syringes (such as the gun syringes that can be loaded with several doses at a time and they will work goats as well), Blue Lotion, Iodine or brand name Betadine (of povidone-iodine â PVPI), Scalpels and blades. Keep antibiotics on hand â When getting close to calving, keep colostrum on hand (A rule - if a cow can't raise her own calf she gets sold).

&#61555;&#61472;Now, back to the beginning - The most important lesson if your cattle are for profit - Remember that NO cow or calf is a pet. They are a commodity or an asset, NEVER a pet. If one doesn't pay her way, produce well or has problems, she goes and gets replace. 

Again, stick to the basics - You want a cow/calf operation for profit? You will have to sell weanlings at auction to keep cash flowing. You can branch out later after you learn more about cattle; maybe sell a finished beef product if you have the market.

Low input means feeding no grain to the cattle. If they can't keep weight in the winter with hay, they go to town. Feed will eat up profits almost as fast as vet bills. Learn to vet, another input to be minimized. Keep focused on eliminating unnecessary drains on your cash and profit.

Donât cut out the necessary things, if they are truly necessary, buy sulfur salt blocks and loose mineral. In early spring when grass is lush and the danger of grass tetany is high you need high magnesium mineral. The health of your grass and your cattle is everything.

The basic thing is to cut costs and maximize profit. Learn how to give injections. Learn how to castrate. Learn how to pull a calf. Learn what vaccinations you need in your area. Also have a good de-worming schedule in place. Preferably twice a year, but once in some areas will work. Healthy pastures can help minimize these inputs too.

Try to avoid barn lots as much as possible. Make it one of your goals to be able to own/rent enough ground to keep cattle on pasture year round.

Barn lots are referred to as "dry lots". A lot of cattlemen bring the cows into dry lots to calve in the winter. They usually have the highest mortality rates as well as the highest vet bills. Dry lots are usually anything but dry in winter. Wet soil is the best breeding ground for bacteria. Calves do not do well with high levels of bacteria.

One key to successful calving is low stress for the cow. That means no standing around watching and trying to help. That stresses the cow. Also, a cow's natural instinct is to get away from the herd to calve. She can't do that in a dry lot. That adds stress. Stress is one of the biggest reasons for calving problems. Reduce it. Have her on pasture.

Along those lines, in most areas of the country, if there are valleys, dry ditches, or trees for protection, a cow and calf will be fine. They are hardy animals. The last thing you want to do is put them in a barn or loafing shed. If you have them pack into a loafing shed in the winter, you will experience a lot of respiratory problems. The heat and moisture causes a lot of cases of pneumonia. These days, you rarely see people using them the way they once did. If you have one or two cows, that's different. But we're discussing a cow/calf operation that will be much more than one or two cows.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

The best place to buy cattle for a cow/calf operation is the auction/sale barn/livestock exchange. Until you learn, have a knowledgeable cattleman go with you to help you pick the cows and to help with the bidding. Starting out, you're better going with a cow that has a calf on the ground and one in the belly. Starting out, it's okay to buy old knowing you'll have her for about a year at most.

In the beginning, you will notice that the auctioneer and/or owner of the sale barn will work harder getting higher bids for some people more so than other people. Pick your local sale barn and take all your calves there. Find out what the auctioneer sells and maybe buy some. Visit his farm auctions and keep the bidding active. You take care of him and he takes care of you when you sell calves. He works hard in the sale ring to get top dollar. 

Get to know your sale barn owner, auctioneer, without being a pest. Don't show up at the sale barn only the day you want to buy. Go to every sale watching, learning, keeping track of bidding, pricing, etc. Become a familiar face. Talk to people, but for goodness sake do not put on airs. Country people see right through it and get easily irritated when people try to pretend they know what's going on when in fact they don't. They tend to help those that admit they don't know what's going on before those that pretend or put on airs.

Pay attention at the sale barns. Some animals have been "preg" checked by the vet on staff and they announce if she is "open" (not pregnant), or if she is bred and in what period of gestation, i.e. 1, 2, or 3. Indeed the barn's vet (usually the local vet that everyone uses) is usually the one to preg, whether you're the seller or the buyer. But the seller won't always ask (pay) for a preg. He might send them in just "knowing" that these cattle are open or bred, as the case may be. If you absolutely have to have bred cows, have them pregged before you leave. You won't have to pay for the cow if you bought what was supposed to be a bred cow and find out she's open before you even load her.

Old open cows and bulls selling for slaughter will sell by the "cwt" (hundredweight). If you have a bred cow selling for $136.00 at 1,200 pounds, you will pay $1,632.00 for that cow. In other words they are selling at $136.00 per hundred-weight for a 1,200 pound cow, the same is true with young bred cows and heifers or steers. So, 1,200 pounds divided by 100 is 12, times $136 equals $1,632, or $1.36 per pound. But they don't go by individual pounds. 

When cows have a calf on the ground they usually sell the pair "for one-money." That means that if they say "$1,900 for one-money", they mean that you get the cow and the calf for a total of $1,900. It is important to have good udders on your cows for good functionality, plus it's a genetic trait passed on to the calf.

Some calves sell by the head and some sell by weight. If it is a young bucket calf, they will usually sell for one price by the head. They sell by the hundredweight if the calf is larger or a weanling.

KNOW how much you are bidding.

They will also sell choice if there are several in the group... sometimes. If they announce selling by choice meaning high bidder can take the animal of his choice or all of them for that many cattle times the money.

When you buy the animals, it is usually easier and sometimes cheaper to let the vet on staff vaccinate, de-worm, castrate, and so on before taking them home. Have the cow/heifer preg checked again before you take it home if you can. If they announce a bred cow/heifer in the sale ring, have her preg checked to verify it. If she comes back as not bred, then you are not obligated to take her home and they should refund your purchase price... ALWAYS have them preg checked no matter what they announce in the sale ring. 

&#61555;&#61472;Talk about breeding - The decision of when to keep a bull is going to vary. If you have enough land and grass to not take away land from another cow and can monetarily justify it buy a bull. In the beginning, yes, he stays with the herd full time, year round. Why would you not want a bull breeding his daughter? Actually, the best genetics usually come from "line breeding", meaning breeding sires to daughters, granddaughters, etc. The best genes of the "family" are enhanced by line breeding. However, keep in mind that you can also enhance the worst of the family genetics. So, both animals need to be good tempered, small birth weights but fast gainers, good conformation, good feet, good brisket, all the things that make good cattle. 

The Line 1 Herefords came from a herd that had been closed for over 60 years. The progeny from that herd became the top lines in the Hereford industry and were the most sought after. So, a closed herd (meaning no new blood) can be the best for you. It also means that you don't have to quarantine new animals or bring other unwanted problems into your herd.

As to the question of leaving the bull with the cows year round or just seasonal - If you leave the bull with the cows, you theoretically get an extra calf crop every 4 years or practically speaking probably every 5 years.

So, let's say you have 80 cows and you put the bull in seasonally. At $800 per calf and every cow had a calf every year, you sell at weaning. You would average $256,000 over those 4 years. Alternatively if you leave the bull with them year round, you will gross an extra $64,000 over the four to five years. That extra money will feel nice in your pocket. You will have some losses however. You will lose an occasional calf and some cows. Unfortunately none of us live in a perfect world. There may come a time you will want to better plan the breeding for special traits, hybrid vigor and seasonal births.

A mature bull can service about 50 cows where a yearling bull can handle about 20.

When you sell at a sale barn, groups of calves usually bring more money and sell better than a single or just 2 or 3 calves sold together. The easiest way to plan that is to have the calves born as close in time as possible and ready to sell at the same time. They need to be uniform in type, size, and weights to sell as a group. You might want to wait to do that until you get debt free and have a profit coming in. More on bull breeding daughters - keep in mind most breeds carry some genetic defects. It's an alphabet soup of abbreviations for them all. Line-breeding or close-breeding will make those genes show up if you have them. Still good to know you have them so you can go about eliminating the carriers, but that education will cost you some calves. 

My advice would be for a startup operation to AVOID line-breeding. Wait until you have your genetics where you want them. Most people don't start out with genetics that are good enough, or enough numbers, to close the herd.

&#61555;&#61472;Talk about birthing - Tag and weigh the new calves within twelve hours after birth. It's much easier if they are not disturbed in the first few hours after birth. Once the calf is licked clean, nursed and laid back down, the cow is much easier and safer to work with. If you find a new calf in the morning just leave them alone and check them in the evening. While Iâm tagging the calf, the cow should stay with her calf, but she should not get overly protective or put me in danger. Her offspring will typically display the same disposition traits as she does â good or bad.

First-calf heifers should be calving out on open range with the mature cowherd.

&#61555;&#61472;Talk about weaning - When is "weaned"? A lot of sale barns consider a calf to be "weaned" after 30 days off the dam. That's fine if you have the fencing to handle weaning calves. Usually an electric fence will not hold a calf you are trying to wean. 

Some sell right off the mama and straight out of the pasture. Meaning they are sold at the time they should be weaned but are sold as not weaned. Your area will dictate which is more advantageous. In some areas weaned calves sell better and some areas not. 

If you sell straight out of the pasture and right off the mama they are considered sold "green." Bring them in off the pasture together; separate the mama cows from their calves and turn the cows back out. Load the calves and go. That is selling green calves.

Weaning is usually based on weight and not age as will many things with cattle. Try to sell around 600 to 750 pounds. If you sell them too light, you're cheating yourself, but if you sell them too heavy, the price per hundredweight begins to drop. 

How long to reach that weight? It depends on a lot of factors. It depends on the weather, breed, quality of the dam, how well she milks, a lot of different factors. Some will be ready in 6 months and others 9 or 10 months. If a cow doesn't give enough milk and it takes her calf too long, she gets replaced. A cow will come into heat about 3 weeks after calving and every 3 weeks after until bred. When a bull is running with the cows fulltime you don't want her still nursing a calf when she is ready to have her next calf. She needs to be a good milk producer to get that calf to weight as soon as possible, five to six months, not 9 or 10 months.

The gestation period for a cow is about 283 days. Younger cows will birth about 10 days before that where older cows birth at about 293 days.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

&#61555;&#61472;Talking about pasture maintenance - Think about rainfall; think about what type of grass does well in your climate. Think about warm season and cool season grasses. 

Fescue is not an evil grass as some portray it. Like any type of grass it takes maintenance. Fescue has an endophyte that can cause problems like fescue foot. The key... if you have Fescue, keep the grass below 4 to 6 inches and you'll never have a problem. If you can't graze it that heavily, mow it. Preference should be given to fescue and native grasses in Northern Arkansas like bluestem also known as turkey foot. These grasses take less fertilizer and are much hardier than others. 

With beef cattle everything boils down to the profit/loss ---- revenues and expenses. You have to know your soils, what it will support, stocking rates for various grasses in your part of the country and so many different factors that come from experience. The same way cattle are assets, grasses are an asset. You have to take care of the grasses if you want the cattle to profit. You should select good grasses that are native to your area (as much as you can), grasses that require the least fertilizer and hardy to your area. Mixing legumes help balance the pasture and minimize fertilizer inputs.

The only time you should let fescue grow tall is if you are stockpiling for winter. For those that are unfamiliar, stockpiling is letting it grow tall. Not cutting or baling it. Then after the freezes and other grasses die, stockpiled fescue can have some of the highest protein content of any grasses or hay. Also, at this point, endophyte is no longer an issue.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

INCOME (cash):
Assume 100 momma cows yield 90 marketable calves per year at 550 lbs. each
Keeps 10 heifers to replace lost or culled cows
Sells the 80 remaining
Calves sold yield an average price of $1.25 per lb.
Cull cows yield an average price of $700 each

80 calves x 550 lb. x $1.25 = $ 55,000.00
8 cull cows ( 10 minus 2 died) x $ 700 = $ 5,600.00

Total Cash Income = $60,600.00

EXPENSES (cash)

Chicken litter for 30 acres = $1,800.00
Lime as needed = $2,000.00
Fuel for clipping, dragging, etc. = $1,920.00
Maintain tractor & equipment = $1,920.00
Transport to market costs = $800.00
Electricity for fences = $600.00
Insurance Liability = $1,000.00
Water (and related expenses) = $2,000.00
Salt & Minerals = $2,000.00
Seed = $2,000.00
Fence repairs, etc. = $1,000.00
Misc. Expenses = $4,000.00

Total Cash Expenses = $21,040.00

Net CASH gain from operation = $39,560.00

How
Only worm young cattle and cows that show evidence of coarse hair or lack of thriftiness - 
Calve year round - Never wean calves, just send them to market and wean on the trailer, buyers will not pay for conditioning - Do not sell calves seasonally, Sell ~4 times per year, the cash flow is better and never sell all the calves when the market is low or high, get an average for the year
Closed herd - Do not vaccinate - Buy no commercial fertilizer, use chicken litter instead - 
Do not use a vet; if I cannot correct the problem, I bury it - if a cow has a problem calving, regardless of the reason or the value of the cow she is culled. - Run one mature bull on 100 females - The bull remains with the herd, all animals are in the same herd - No supplement is fed, grass and clover only - Get by on 1.4 acres /cow and her calf all year


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## Dreamfarm (Dec 10, 2011)

Awesome Post HDRider. Helpful:happy: to all us newbies out there.


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## RedRider (May 15, 2012)

Wow!!! Thanks alot for this. I'm so grateful to everyone who takes time out of their busy life to give us newbies alot of information!

God Bless All

RedRider


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

Great post. Because it is 103 out today, naturally the first thing that comes to mind is hard freeze in winter weather. What is your water situation? Do you make provisions for the extreme cold (and extreme drought)?


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

Ditto on all the thanks for all the knowledge shared. WE are just getting started and hope to have our first 3 calves born around turkey day and also butcher our first steer around the same time.
I think we will look for a nitch market selling finished angus x lowline grass fed beef


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## Hawkshaw (Jan 18, 2010)

Thanks to all for the information. I just started with my cattle and have 3 heifers and 1 bull at the present. I am starting from scatch. Although I have had some limited experience with cattle from helping a friend with his. I still do not have the responsibility of making the decisions on my own animals and how to manage the farm, so I know little or nothing to that effect. All of the information will be used to help me get this operation started and expanded in the future to make a living.

Thanks again.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

@HDRider: Thanks for the summary. I'm often not too good at organizing my thoughts when writing.

To the newbies: Whether two cows or 20 cows, operate the same way... if you want profit. 

I've seen several threads/postings dealing with concern of cattle in heat. Cattle are not human. They are very hardy and can handle extremes in temperatures as long as they have plenty access to water. Calves born in 100+ (F) heat are fine as long as the mama cow is giving milk. 

As far as drought... that's a tough one. The main thing is water and quality of grazing. The grasses in drought areas, at this point, don't have enough protein to support animals. All they are getting is fiber. You'll most likely need to supplement their diet with protein. In times like this, I'll put out an all-natural 200 to 250 pound protein tub. (they vary in weight by brand.)

With us, we have acres of standing grass that is dead... no nutrient value, so we supplement with protein, especailly since we have calves on the cows. Milk production is directly linked to protein availability. We also have several ponds for water access.

Many smaller farms will have to be feeding hay and if the hay was cut early enough you will not have the problems with protein deficiency as those of us still using grass. 

Other than that, I have no advice for drought conditions.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Paul,
You have done great and speaking for everyone, I hope we get more from you!

Thank you.


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## wally (Oct 9, 2007)

Paul, I am thinking about cutting a 20 acre field of soybeans and baling as winter feed for my cows.Some voluntary wheat in it now. These are beans that I planted no till into wheat stuble. With the heat and no rain I dont think it would be cost effective to plan on a bean harvest and I could use the hay.
Thanks, wally


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

PaulNKS said:


> As far as drought... that's a tough one. The main thing is water and quality of grazing. The grasses in drought areas, at this point, don't have enough protein to support animals. All they are getting is fiber. You'll most likely need to supplement their diet with protein. In times like this, I'll put out an all-natural 200 to 250 pound protein tub. (they vary in weight by brand.)
> 
> With us, we have acres of standing grass that is dead... no nutrient value, so we supplement with protein, especailly since we have calves on the cows. Milk production is directly linked to protein availability. We also have several ponds for water access.
> .


Do you purchase your tub from the local feed/grain store or TSC-like rural living store? Can you share approx. cost/tub?

Regarding the dead grass. Do you mean dead, as in deceased, no longer living, never to be seen again? Or dormant? What will we be doing on the other side of this drought for our pastures? I've never experienced a total brown-out such as this.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

CrownRanch said:


> Do you purchase your tub from the local feed/grain store or TSC-like rural living store? Can you share approx. cost/tub?
> 
> Regarding the dead grass. Do you mean dead, as in deceased, no longer living, never to be seen again? Or dormant? What will we be doing on the other side of this drought for our pastures? I've never experienced a total brown-out such as this.


A lot of us have never experienced this much of a "brown-out". I think there will be a lot of permanent damage to the grasses, especially your non-native grasses since they are generally not as drought hardy. 

I have some big bluestem in some pastures and hay ground that is showing a lot of resistance, but I'm thinking my non-natives will have a lot of permanent damage. However, I'm not a horticulturist, so I can't say for certain or from any direct knowledge.

The protein.... Protein is already an issue with most herds although a lot of people are not yet feeding it.

There are many options for protein. There are tubs, blocks, range cubes, liquid, etc.

Within those types of protein products, you also have the all-natural tubs and you have tubs with urea. Urea is fine for cattle, not for horses. Horses can handle it, but it over time, it isn't a great idea.

Urea is used to get the high levels of protein. Without it, you can't get protein much higher than about 28%. So, any all-natural protein source will be the lower protein percentages.

If you are looking at tubs, there are two major types, other than the urea and the all-natural. You have cooked tubs and pressed or chemically hardened tubs.

The cooked tubs will usually be your better tubs. They have the moisture cooked out of them and are better for cattle self-regulating, so-to-speak. The other (cheaper) tubs are hardened by being pressed or having them hardened chemically, but they retain all the moisture, which is not so good. 

So, as far as price... the two major factors: 1. all-natural are much higher than protein with urea. 2. Cooked tubs are usually higher than non-cooked tubs.

You asked about Tractor Supply tubs. They are cheaper. I think they are about $55+ right now. A good quality tub that is cooked, all-natural is about twice as much. Personally, I prefer the more expensive tub. 

You can pay half for a tub, but the cows will eat it a lot faster than the others.

For the people with larger herds, sometimes the liquid is a better way to go. But, it also depends on brands. There are a lot of brands out there that I would not want. They are loaded with urea, way too much in my opinion. There is only one brand of liquid that uses a patented process of a "time-released" urea. It is the ONLY liquid protein I use. It is called "QLF". 

There are also protein blocks. These can be okay if you don't mind feeding them more often. They are usually a little on the "crumbly" side and an animal can eat them up fairly quickly, which means the amount of protein is not regulated and they disappear quicker than they should. 

The main thing is to look at how much each animal is supposed to consume, calculate the price per head per day.

Like many products... what may be the most economical here, may not be in another part of the country. For example... if the liquid protein is cheaper per head per day here, in your part of the country, tubs may be cheaper. Like many things, a lot of it depends on your retailer, competition, brands available in your area, etc.

Personally, when it comes to the goats, I prefer the tubs. When it comes to the cattle, I prefer the liquid, but sometimes I use the tubs. Since the liquid is delivered by the ton, I will use it during the winter. If I am only supplementing protein short term, I will use tubs. Or, if it is in a smaller pasture, I may use a couple tubs.

You have to find what works best for you and which product is best priced in your area. 

The main thing.... this year, the drought areas need additional protein since the grasses burning up have little to none.


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## ramiller5675 (Mar 31, 2009)

PaulNKS said:


> A lot of us have never experienced this much of a "brown-out". I think there will be a lot of permanent damage to the grasses, especially your non-native grasses since they are generally not as drought hardy.
> 
> I have some big bluestem in some pastures and hay ground that is showing a lot of resistance, but I'm thinking my non-natives will have a lot of permanent damage. However, I'm not a horticulturist, so I can't say for certain or from any direct knowledge.


I live in Oklahoma and the drought last summer was supposed to have been a historic drought that was worse than the '30's because it was hot and just didn't rain. 

It started raining in late Sept/early October and according to the rainfall amounts by spring the drought was over, but the pastures were covered in winter annual grasses like cheat, ryegrass, and broadleaf weeds. Even thought it looked like the pastures were greening up, the warm season grasses like the native grasses and bermudagrass never seemed to start growing because of all the competition from the weeds and winter grasses.

Then it got hot, the rain stopped, and we are back in a drought again (it seemed like it happened much quicker this summer).

To my eye, the grass looks like it is thinner this year than it was last year. Even though we got the rain over the winter, it wasn't enough rain at the right time of year to let the root systems of the perennial grass recover from the drought stress from last year. It is going to have to rain during the summer for the grasses to completely recover.

So, plan for another drought next year by controlling your weeds and annual grasses this winter (if you get any rain) so you have a better chance of your warm season grasses recovering.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

Paul, I feel like I have you in a rope-a-dope between this thread and my sweet pro thread. What category from the above would you consider sweet pro? It is hard, but not salt block hard. You can scrape away the surface and it becomes like a crumbly loose mineral mix. I probably am abusing the term 'tub'. I usually think of tubs are the molassesy sticky tubs.

And I would like to thank you for taking the time to post all of this info. I know it takes a tremendous amount of time, which is precious. I don't know where I would be without your kind of generosity.


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

urea should not be fed to young stock. under 2or 3 months of age?


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

Bruce, I couldn't tell if that was a specific question about the age of my stock, or a question about the low-end age limit for urea. In either case, I'm not feeding urea, but it is good to know such a limit exists.

Paul, I think I may be weaning early, or do not have a thrifty herd, or both. As a point of reference, I just took two head (steers) to the sale barn on Tuesday. I don't have the weaning record handy, but everything else I have pretty close to the tip of my brain. 

Born 9/1/11 & 9/8/11.
Banded 11/15/11 when the herd was worked.
Weaned March(?)/2012. Weight was not measured or recorded.
Sold 7/24/12. One weighed 475, the other 515. The smaller had a serious bout of pneumonia over the winter that accounts for the weight differential.
One of the cows birthed yesterday.

That was my first pass thru the cycle. I can tell I already need to pay better attention to record weaning date/weight. I am pretty much following advise of my neighbor that has been at this his whole life on when to wean, sell, etc. Now I have this forum and a wee bit more experience as a second opinion.

If you are taking them directly to market at the weaning event, what is your weight average? If you are taking them in lots, I presume there is a range of weaning age/size in each lot?


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Wouldn't the age you take them to market vary by current conditions on the farm? If I'm still building up my herd size, wouldn't it be better to use my excess pasture to fatten them up on pasture first? But if I'm near my max, then selling them to make room for more moms and babes would make sense. (Assuming an extra calf was worth more than the value increase I'd get from fattening up the steers.) Or would you find leasing out that land to another use more profitable than fattening steers on it?


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

PaulNKS and anybody else.... What is the difference between ...inbreeding and linebreeding if any? One rancher who raises a lot of Bulls here in the country says you will have problems with inbreeding using your own bulls if you have less than 500 head cow herd. 
Another prominate consultant says that inbreeding is a myth, as long as you breed your best to your best. He said that back in the Bible times when they sacrificed thier best male calf they had to use the next best one as a herd bull, they didn't ship a new one in from somewhere.
What say you?


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Line breeding is to select genes from a specific individual, while inbreeding is just a small closed population.

Both will cause an increase in expression of recessive genes. Some recessive genes are good, and some bad.

Example: You believe you have the perfect cow, and want to spread her genes. Her son only has 50% of her genes, and won't carry all of them forward as herd sire. If you breed the son to the mother, the next child will carry 75% of her genes, and 25% of grandpa's genes. Keep repeating, killing the old bull as soon as the next is ready, until the perfect cow can't be bred any more. The young of the herd will have an increasing percentage of her genes as each of the bulls used on the herd have an increasing percentage of her genes.

Now the first downside is if that cow had only one copy of an uncommon recessive gene. She doesn't suffer from it, and neither does her first son, but the second son has a 50% chance of having one copy, and a 25% chance of having two copies. The odds get worse from there.

The second downside is tradeoffs. Let's say you start your linebreeding during a drought. You pick an animal that has excellent drought survival characteristics, and push hard to spread those genes throughout the herd. Now on the fifth year the drought lets up, but the next year you have a harsh winter, and you've bred out all your harsh winter survival genes in favor of the drought survival genes, and you have a very very bad year.

You might look up conservation breeding. It uses line-breeding to establish multiple male lines, then interbreeding to keep the majority of the flock diverse as possible. Downside: maintaining multiple bulls. It was developed for sheep, so it's not such a huge deal to keep multiple rams/bucks as it is multiple bulls.


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

dlskidmore said:


> Line breeding is to select genes from a specific individual, while inbreeding is just a small closed population.
> 
> Both will cause an increase in expression of recessive genes. Some recessive genes are good, and some bad.
> 
> ...


Thanks, very interesting. My Dad would sometimes want to keep a bull calf that he liked but mainly because he liked the calf's dad. We usually maintained 2 or 3 separate herds due to geographic location. most of the cows were related to some degree, but had 3 different unrelated bulls with them. I have 2 or 3 cows that I consider very good, but they are mixed. If I could spread their traits throughout the herd that would be good.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

You can always use AI to bring in more genes if you're too inbred?


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

crownranch, I was not sure of age. You do not want of feed urea until fully developed functioning rumen.


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## ArmyDoc (May 13, 2007)

ycanchu2 said:


> PaulNKS and anybody else.... What is the difference between ...inbreeding and linebreeding if any? One rancher who raises a lot of Bulls here in the country says you will have problems with inbreeding using your own bulls if you have less than 500 head cow herd.
> Another prominate consultant says that inbreeding is a myth, as long as you breed your best to your best. He said that back in the Bible times when they sacrificed thier best male calf they had to use the next best one as a herd bull, they didn't ship a new one in from somewhere.
> What say you?


The old joke is that when you breed closely related animals together and it works you call it linebreeding. When it doesn't, its called inbreeding. 

The other version is that "I do line breeding, They do inbreeding."

I think the key to successful line breeding is a vigorous cull program. Line breeding result in offspring that are more and more homozygous for a given trait. If there is a genetic defect, you are more likely to expose it in a line breeding program. If you then cull that line, you rid the herd of that defect. This is good. 

Unfortunately, some traits are at their best when heterozyogous, or controlled by more than one gene. This is much harder to breed for.

Another factor, is that even if you are culling heavily to keep only the best offspring, there is a inbreeding depression that occurs the more inbred a line is. All breeds are more inbred to a degree - this can be used to help you. If you cross to pure breeds, you release that depression and get hybrid vigor. The ofspring will be bigger / stronger than either parent line. 

Unfortunately this jump only occures when you are breeding unrelated lines/breeds. So when you run out of unrelated lines/breeds you get no more increase.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

bruce2288 said:


> urea should not be fed to young stock. under 2or 3 months of age?


They need to be ruminating before it is fed to them which usually occurs around 300 to 350+ pounds with a standard beef breed. (If I remember correctly.) But, if you have calves with your cows at the time you need to start, you can get by with it. Or.. you could buy all-natural. The all-natural does not have urea.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

CrownRanch said:


> Bruce, I couldn't tell if that was a specific question about the age of my stock, or a question about the low-end age limit for urea. In either case, I'm not feeding urea, but it is good to know such a limit exists.
> 
> Paul, I think I may be weaning early, or do not have a thrifty herd, or both. As a point of reference, I just took two head (steers) to the sale barn on Tuesday. I don't have the weaning record handy, but everything else I have pretty close to the tip of my brain.
> 
> ...


If they were standard sized beef breeds, then yes, you have a problem with your weaning weights. We wean and sell at around 650 to 700 pounds. The time it takes to get there will depend on several factors.
1. how much milk does your cow produce?
2. Are they only on grass/hay or are they being grained. 

Naturally, a grained calf will reach weaning weight much faster than a grass/hay calf. 

Keep one thing in mind... Protein=milk 

Protein is a necessity for higher milk production.


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## FarmerDavid (Jul 16, 2012)

Good thread, I started raising cattle last year. My grandpa had raised cattle, but he died when i was 1 and dad sold the cows and switched to row cropping. So I he hasnt been much of a sorce of info. 

Im always supprised to see how much infor a person will give out to a "newbe". Some are an great source of info patiently answering questions and even opening up the books for you. Unfortunatly ive only ran into one like that and hes not avaliable now. Most seem to have an attitude of I learned on my own you can to, need to spend a few years in the school of hard knocks. I dont know if its viewed as competition or what. On the job is great training but with the investment it takes these days id prefer to get all the advice i can, hopefully itll keep me from making some costly desicions.

So a thread like this from an experienced cattleman is very appreciated. I have some general questions, is it best to post them in this thread or in a seperate thread?


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

FarmerDavid said:


> Good thread, I started raising cattle last year. My grandpa had raised cattle, but he died when i was 1 and dad sold the cows and switched to row cropping. So I he hasnt been much of a sorce of info.
> 
> Im always supprised to see how much infor a person will give out to a "newbe". Some are an great source of info patiently answering questions and even opening up the books for you. Unfortunatly ive only ran into one like that and hes not avaliable now. Most seem to have an attitude of I learned on my own you can to, need to spend a few years in the school of hard knocks. I dont know if its viewed as competition or what. On the job is great training but with the investment it takes these days id prefer to get all the advice i can, hopefully itll keep me from making some costly desicions.
> 
> So a thread like this from an experienced cattleman is very appreciated. I have some general questions, is it best to post them in this thread or in a seperate thread?


Go ahead and post your questions. That's what this thread is all about. It's about learning how to make a grow a herd/make a profit from standard beef cattle. 

What I relate is from my experience being around it all my life, working in the feed industry for a number of years, and going through hours of nutritional training.

However, I'll admit I don't know a lot. But, what I do know or remember, I'll gladly share, especially when it comes to my own experience and how we built our own herd into a profitable venture.


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## FarmerDavid (Jul 16, 2012)

Ok a couple of questions on my mind right now. Can you brand a heifer or cow that is pregnant? Kind of seems like a bad idea to me but im not going off of anything but my gut there. Need to work the calves next month, so well be working them anyway if it can be done preg.

I guess ill give some background. Last year i started my herd by buying 7 beefmaster heifers from a local farmer with the agreement that i could use one of his bulls. Worked great, got 4 nice heifer calves and 3 nice bull calves this spring. I also bought 5 more heifer calves from him this spring, unfortunatly use of the bull wasnt included this year, and i made the decision to buy a 1 yr old beefmaster bull as well. I had really wanted to AI but everyone kept telling me i needed to have a bull to clean up if i AI'd. Hes running with the 7 cows and 5 heifers now. 

Now that i have a bull can you make money buying heifers in the spring, and then selling them as bred heifers in the fall? I know it all depends on the market but is this something that is done? My actual plan would probably be to turn in the 3 bull calves that were born this spring and keep the new herd sire with the cows.

Obviously i started the exact opposite from your recomendation of buying older cows, but i knew when i bought them i wasnt counting on them being profitable imedietly. My desire is for this to become a profitable opperation, i just was fortunate enough that i was able to buy some nice heifers at a decent price so i jumped on it.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

ArmyDoc said:


> Unfortunately, some traits are at their best when heterozyogous, or controlled by more than one gene. This is much harder to breed for.


Ug. Be very careful when breeding for such a trait to not throw other desirable traits out the window chasing after it.

There's a coat color pattern in Great Danes that's a double hybrid.

HhMm - desired pattern
HH** - prenatal fatal
hhMm - undesireable pattern, usually culled
hhMM - undesireable pattern, can cause deafness/blindness, usually culled
*hmm - less desieable pattern, often kept for breeding. Impossible to tell if remaining gene is H or h.

To get a litter of 50% HhMm, you'd need a parent with Hh, a parent with hh , a parent with MM and a parent with mm, but they don't breed any MM or known hh parents, and perfer Mm to mm.

As a result, they spend a whole lot of time chasing after the perfect coat, and the rest of the health/confirmation is not selected for as well as it is in the other coat color patterns of the breed.

Although I've worked out the best way to produce these dogs, I'd never do it. The politics in the show world would roast me alive for breeding such animals.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

WE are done with our zuchinni squash plants for the year. Im going to pull the plants this weekend.
Does anybody know if the plants would be good or bad for my cows to eat. I hate to throw them on the compost pile if the cows would enjoy them and it would do them no harm


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

PaulNKS said:


> If they were standard sized beef breeds, then yes, you have a problem with your weaning weights. We wean and sell at around 650 to 700 pounds. The time it takes to get there will depend on several factors.
> 1. how much milk does your cow produce?
> 2. Are they only on grass/hay or are they being grained.
> 
> ...


Clearly, I am below that growth rate considerably. At this week's price, that equates to around $150/hd. On the bright side, I like having a target to aim at. I'm on grass all the way, so it looks like that is where I need to start. Got any tricks to make it rain? :rainprf:


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

CrownRanch said:


> Clearly, I am below that growth rate considerably. At this week's price, that equates to around $150/hd. On the bright side, I like having a target to aim at. I'm on grass all the way, so it looks like that is where I need to start. Got any tricks to make it rain? :rainprf:


Mine also take longer since they are grass/hay fed. But, I do add protein supplement to help the cows, especially in this drought and in the winter. At $150 per head with even just 10 calves.... it adds up. BUT... you also have to consider what works for you. It will take longer to get them to weaning weight which can be problematic if you want to sell quicker and get another calf sooner. Also, you have to have enough ground to support them longer.

Personally, in the beginning, while building a herd, I would do what I could to get them to weaning weight quicker so the cow could be bred back and calve sooner... if you are still profiting from each calf. In the beginning, if I'm selling at the auction, who cares if the calves are grass fed or grain fed. You want that calf ready to sell in as short a time as possible. 

Ideally, a cow will come in heat 3 weeks after calving. She will have a calf in roughly 9 months. (283 days, I think). But, you want her dried up and rested for no less than 30 days, but preferably 60 days before she calves again. The only way to get a calf to weaning weight in 7 to 8 months is with feed. You can grain the calves without graining the cow. Once you get your operation up and running and it is running at a profit (minus the feed costs), and you're out of debt, then you can grass feed because it won't matter if your calves are born farther apart.... so long as it doesn't crunch your revenues to the point of no longer being profitable. 

In cow/calf operations and in feedlots, everything boils down to cost per head per day...everything. So, you have to find a balance of cost per head per day vs. profitability. With the coming soar in grain prices, it will get much harder to do. You will have to watch your dollars very closely and budget accordingly. Grain prices are going to soar. That in turn will cause beef prices to possibly come down a bit in the markets. BUT, it will cause the beef prices in the grocers to soar.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

Alaska said:


> WE are done with our zuchinni squash plants for the year. Im going to pull the plants this weekend.
> Does anybody know if the plants would be good or bad for my cows to eat. I hate to throw them on the compost pile if the cows would enjoy them and it would do them no harm


I don't know. Maybe someone will know. The one time my cows got into the garden, the only plants left were the zuchinni... lol. go figure.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

CrownRanch said:


> Bruce, I couldn't tell if that was a specific question about the age of my stock, or a question about the low-end age limit for urea. In either case, I'm not feeding urea, but it is good to know such a limit exists.
> 
> Paul, I think I may be weaning early, or do not have a thrifty herd, or both. As a point of reference, I just took two head (steers) to the sale barn on Tuesday. I don't have the weaning record handy, but everything else I have pretty close to the tip of my brain.
> 
> ...


Are you timing your cows to calve so that they have maximum nutrition available at or shortly after calving.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

Allen W said:


> Are you timing your cows to calve so that they have maximum nutrition available at or shortly after calving.


Well actually, no. I had a few nice March births. But I am still in start-up mode. Most of my cows arrived here last fall with either calf on the side or one in the oven, or both. Some of those are birthing again now. The march births weren't any of my doing--I just lucked into them. The aforementioned steers were born into poor conditions. It seems like a distant memory now, but last fall was excruciatingly dry. I thought the winter forage was crusty compared to how it was the winter prior when we bought the place. I have restarted them on free-choice protein supplement (18%) which they are inhaling now.

PaulNKS, I am curious. How do you give grain to the calves and not the cows prior to weaning? A hot wire that is a smidgen higher than the calves? At the time being, I am thinking I will avoid grain with this lot, but you have my interst piqued.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

CrownRanch said:


> I have restarted them on free-choice protein supplement (18%) which they are inhaling now.
> 
> PaulNKS, I am curious. How do you give grain to the calves and not the cows prior to weaning? A hot wire that is a smidgen higher than the calves? At the time being, I am thinking I will avoid grain with this lot, but you have my interst piqued.


They are called "creep" feeders. They have a "cage" around it so that a calf can get to the feed but not the cows. You can also build anything that would work. You can use pipe, 2x4's, anything.

Here's pic of a small one. You can google "creep feeders" and see a lot of images of different types. A good one is adjustable so that you can raise it as the calves grow.










As far as the protein... at first they will "indulge". After that, they should slow down on it. If not, a major key in regulating is the location of the tub. If it is too close to their loafing area or to close to their supply of water, they will consume more. What happens? They lick on it, it makes them thirsty, they turn around, get a drink of water, turn back around, and keep licking. When they have to walk a ways to get to water, they don't lick on the protein as much. So, make sure it is a fair distance from their water supply and from their loafing area. Most of them you see will be out in the middle of pastures and that's the reason why.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

Makes sense. I guess the top of the pond dam is a little too close to the water! I put out 2 at a time to keep them from contending over one pile. One is out in the middle of pasture, and is getting eaten at about 1/2 the rate of the one by the water. It is days like this that I am glad I have a 16 yo son that can drive the tractor...


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

CrownRanch said:


> Makes sense. I guess the top of the pond dam is a little too close to the water! I put out 2 at a time to keep them from contending over one pile. One is out in the middle of pasture, and is getting eaten at about 1/2 the rate of the one by the water. It is days like this that I am glad I have a 16 yo son that can drive the tractor...


LOL... We learned to drive tractors by the time we are about 10 years old. 

Yeah, these days when you buy tubs from places like a farm and home store, the clerks seldom know anything about it, much less, tips on how to regulate consumption. The main thing is to look at the label. They usually state the expected rate of consumption. Just move the tub until you think they are at that point....

...or if one tub is half gone, you may have it too close to the water ( on the dam, huh? LOL)


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> When we started we bought OLD OLD cows. Most cattlemen don't like to keep cows 10 years old or older. But, I have a couple cows that are almost 20 years old that are still raising a calf every year.


I think I am gonna have to have a talk with my girls ... ound:


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## Jessilee7 (Sep 26, 2011)

Paul- Im wondering what your outlook is on cattle prices right now? I thought last year with the drought we had that prices would drop but they rose. They have fallen some as of right now. This time last year was 1 60-1.90/lb and is currently around 1.20-1.40/lb. We're now in drought year #2... Would you suggest buying now, wait til fall/winter or wait even longer? 
We have a few head but would like to buy around 10 more head of either bred or calf at side cows, or better yet the 3-1 you aimed for when starting. I figure from there we can let the herd grow and maybe add a few every year. Have land for around 100 and could lease land close by cheap or use our other 80 acres that's not too far. 
What are your thoughts on how to grow? Keep buying quickly, slowly, or let the herd grow by keeping back heifers? 
Thanks for this thread and any insight you can share.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Jessilee7 said:


> Would you suggest buying now, wait til fall/winter or wait even longer?


I don't know a thing about future prices, but it sounds just like stock market gambling. You could consider dollar cost averaging, which is setting a budget for a period of time, and getting however many head fit in that budget, so you buy more cows when they're cheap, and fewer when they're expensive. Over time that works out to your advantage. It's similar to the suggestion of going for maximum production of calves over market timing to aim for high price points in the year. It avoids mistiming the market.

But... There's also opportunity cost. If you save $50 a head by waiting, will you loose out on $150 a head in lost calf sales? Will you be able to make $100 more in hay sales to make up the difference? (Those numbers are entirely out of a hat, do your own more realistic math.)


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

Jessilee7 said:


> Paul- Im wondering what your outlook is on cattle prices right now? I thought last year with the drought we had that prices would drop but they rose. They have fallen some as of right now. This time last year was 1 60-1.90/lb and is currently around 1.20-1.40/lb. We're now in drought year #2... Would you suggest buying now, wait til fall/winter or wait even longer?
> We have a few head but would like to buy around 10 more head of either bred or calf at side cows, or better yet the 3-1 you aimed for when starting. I figure from there we can let the herd grow and maybe add a few every year. Have land for around 100 and could lease land close by cheap or use our other 80 acres that's not too far.
> What are your thoughts on how to grow? Keep buying quickly, slowly, or let the herd grow by keeping back heifers?
> Thanks for this thread and any insight you can share.


I agree with dlskidmore.... dollar cost averaging... I think. lol

If you set a plan and buy over a period of time (much like with investing monthly into mutual funds), you will be buying some when high and some when low which can hedge your potential future costs.

Last year, there was a drought but if I'm correct it was nothing like the one this year. In our area, we had some corn burn up and some that was okay. It as like a roulette wheel.

My partner and I were discussing this issue last night as we are looking to increase our herd again. He is of the opinion that the prices will drop in the local sale barns as well as in the retail outlets. I am of the opinion that the prices "may" drop in the local sale barns but will go through the roof in the retail outlets.

My reasoning is this.... ALL the corn around here is being cut for silage. We will have very little corn for feed grown in our area. If the rest of the drought areas are as badly hit, then it will mean a drastic shortfall in corn nationwide. That means cattle will flood the market and prices will drop. How much is anyone's guess. I don't think it will be a lot, but I don't know. However, when cattle get to the feedlots, it will cost a fortune to fatten them because of the short supply of corn. (most feedlots will NOT use distillers grain for good reasons.) So, those high feed costs will most likely (IMHO) relate to skyrocketing retail beef.

I could be wrong on all that.

The other thing to consider is hay and pasture. If we get back to a snowy/icy winter, hay will really be short and no grass. Will you have the hay, or be able to afford hay to feed?

So, when my partner and I were discussing this last night, I wanted to go ahead and expand our herd. We may not be able to come to an agreement. lol So, we may have to split and expand half now and half next Spring when we see what's going to happen.

If we get a wet winter, Spring cattle prices might go up a lot. 

It is a gamble not knowing. I have to also say that I haven't looked at any of the forecasters and their predictions, which I should do. 

There are a couple links you may find interesting:

AgManager.info: Livestock Charts

Farm Marketing - AgEBB

Here's a pdf from the USDA on July 17 of the forecast.
http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/855579/ldpm217.pdf

Hopefully, those can shed more light than I can. 

As I write this,... and thinking.... we'll most likely play a "wait and see" game.


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## Jessilee7 (Sep 26, 2011)

I tend to agree on your outlook of what is probable. If they drop 10-20Â¢ this fall, that's 1000-2000 dollars we COULD save on ten cows though. Which could buy 1-2 more cows. 
We should have more than enough hay to get them through the winter. We shipped in semi loads last year and sold enough to make what we kept free. If we're goin to be short i expect i could do that again. We only have 25 acres of alfalfa that we farm ourselves but we've gotten 2 good and one decent cuttings so far. 
When trying to grow, do you suggest taking all profits from steer calves sold and putting it back into cow purchases? 
Is it more economical to grow your own replacements or just keep buying cows in the beginning?


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

Jessilee7 said:


> I tend to agree on your outlook of what is probable. If they drop 10-20Â¢ this fall, that's 1000-2000 dollars we COULD save on ten cows though. Which could buy 1-2 more cows.


That's a good way to look at it in my book. The outlook for August is hot and dry. What if it let's loose Sept 1 and rains for a month. lol Then the price could go up.

I was noticing on the forecasts that cattle, overall, have actually gone up. So, who the heck knows what will happen for sure?



> We should have more than enough hay to get them through the winter. We shipped in semi loads last year and sold enough to make what we kept free. If we're goin to be short i expect i could do that again. We only have 25 acres of alfalfa that we farm ourselves but we've gotten 2 good and one decent cuttings so far.
> When trying to grow, do you suggest taking all profits from steer calves sold and putting it back into cow purchases?


No. The first thing you need to do is develop a budget, monthly quarterly, semi-annual, and annual. What happens if you put all your profits back into buying cows and then need to buy more hay at $85 per bale? Some may disagree with me which is okay, but I would be budgeting a certain percentage to go back into animal purchase, a percentage to unseen expenses such as vet expense, hay purchase, feed supplements if needed, etc., and (depending on your goals) a percentage to be put into savings and NOT used but budgeted long term for land expansion. 

We keep a certain percentage of ever calf crop put back for buying more land with cash, or as much as possible. Also, a certain percentage is put back for fencing, taxes, insurance, etc. We budget every dime.



> Is it more economical to grow your own replacements or just keep buying cows in the beginning?


Depends on several factors. In the past, it was cheaper in the long run to sell your calves, rather than feed a heifer for three plus years before she provided a revenue (2 + years until her first calf, plus the time until the calf is weaned and sold.) Recently, it has been more advantageous to keep the heifer replacements, which is what we do.

Other considerations would be your breeding. Believe it or not, we had a registered bull for 16 years. He provided fantastic cow coverage every year and our calves topped the market many times because of the frame his calves had. So, we had to keep using him. Yes, he bred daughters, grands, great-grands, etc.... But, the calves only got better with the genetics we had. The quality of the bull can determine a lot of the decision of whether to keep the heifers or sell them. Even when we plan to keep heifers for replacements, if they don't perform well enough of if they end up not looking as good as we hoped, they go. It's good to have well thought plans, but even better when you aren't rigid.

So, if it would be cheaper to raise a replacement and/or if you have great genetics that carry into those heifers, keep them.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

I want to emphasize that the main objective of me starting this thread was in dealing with profitable beef cow/calf operations and how we grew our operation both in terms of cattle numbers and land acres.

The point wasn't in dealing with dairy animals, minis, exotics, etc. Those all carry issues of their own, especially in marketing and providing revenue streams...


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

Is it more economical to grow your own replacements or just keep buying cows in the beginning? Quote...

If you need more cattle in the beginning you may want to buy some to fast forward the operation, however if you have the time to wait, you are better off to raise your own IMO if you have good genetics. Cattle that are raised on your place know your farm, know the ropes so to speak, forexample if you have electric fencing, or automatic waterers. New cattle may have to learn all that plus go thru the acceptance of all the others.....and the real biggie...the possibility of bringing in disease.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

PaulNKS said:


> No. The first thing you need to do is develop a budget, monthly quarterly, semi-annual, and annual. What happens if you put all your profits back into buying cows and then need to buy more hay at $85 per bale? Some may disagree with me which is okay, but I would be budgeting a certain percentage to go back into animal purchase, a percentage to unseen expenses such as vet expense, hay purchase, feed supplements if needed, etc., and (depending on your goals) a percentage to be put into savings and NOT used but budgeted long term for land expansion.


I never thought I would be buying hay. 60 bales. It sucked. I've got 30 days more of this before I am on to hay. I took a worst-case scenario of no grass til March. It was not the kind of business decision I would normally make. I had the cash, and found myself speculating. Not good. I don't want to sell my cows and have to start over again. The land needs to produce, and I don't want anymore slack in revenue.


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## FarmerDavid (Jul 16, 2012)

So how long should it take before a start up should expect to see a profit in a cow calf operation? Including recouping your initial investment?


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## Jessilee7 (Sep 26, 2011)

FarmerDavid said:


> So how long should it take before a start up should expect to see a profit in a cow calf operation? Including recouping your initial investment?


Good question but I am betting it is a hard one to answer since everything is going to be dependant on how exactly each individual runs his own operation. If you're buying 3 in 1 packages like Paul did, you may see a profit sooner but you may be replacing cows sooner since he bought older cows. If you buy registered stock, you will more than likely pay more upfront, but if the cattle market fluctuates, you may not see a higher price when you go to sell. Too many variables.


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## FarmerDavid (Jul 16, 2012)

Jessilee7 said:


> Good question but I am betting it is a hard one to answer since everything is going to be dependant on how exactly each individual runs his own operation. If you're buying 3 in 1 packages like Paul did, you may see a profit sooner but you may be replacing cows sooner since he bought older cows. If you buy registered stock, you will more than likely pay more upfront, but if the cattle market fluctuates, you may not see a higher price when you go to sell. Too many variables.


I understand that, i was just curious what others have found or expect. Personally when I penciled it out in the past it was about 6 years. That included my initial investment and infrastructure. Now that can change greatly depending on markets and other factors. Including how fast I need it to be a profit center. 

In my 6 yr model I was keeping all of my heifers as well as purchasing a few heifers each year. However if it never rains I won't be able to just use my cows as a write off on my schedule f and will have to slow my expansion to produce income.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

FarmerDavid said:


> So how long should it take before a start up should expect to see a profit in a cow calf operation? Including recouping your initial investment?


I agree with the others that there are too many variables. Not only will it vary due to weather, health of animals, breeding cycles, etc, but also your location will have a lot to do with it. Are you in a cattle center where you can market your calves, or do you have to ship them? Are you in an area with a lot of grazing, or does it take 10 acres to support a cow and calf? 

Here, we have good grazing from about April through October. You can buy the "3 way" package like we did and buy older cows. Cows can still breed into their late teens, but you also run risks of more problems. We had good luck.

As far as infrastructure... that is a loaded one. We started out building a "working chute" out of hedge posts we cut, using left over 2x6's treated, and a used head gate for less than $100. We originally used an old wooden homemade feed bunk. We used no hay bale feeders. We unrolled the hay each day only what they would consume that day (in the winter). Infrastructure doesn't take much starting out. 

Do a little pencil work. If you start and buy 5 cows with a calf on the side and one in the belly, let's say she's old and you can get them for $1800 each. That would be $9000. BUT... you'll have (at most) 15 calves to sell. Let's say they bring $850 each at the sale barn at 650 to 700 pounds. You'll gross $12,750. That will pay back the original 9K for the cows and give you an additional 3750 to budget for hay, fence repair, vet bills, etc. Not much to play with. Not only that, but you might only get 14 calves to sell. 

Like I said before it has to budgeted or it just won't work, or won't work as well as it should. 

Keep in mind that the 12750 would also be over a couple years. 

Like anything, the more you have to borrow, the worse off you'll be. The more numbers you have, the more you have to work with. The expense ratio doesn't necessarily increase with the revenue. For example, if you grass feed, it will take calves a little longer to reach weaning weight but, you also don't increase your feed expense in relation to the number of head. For us, it was in the numbers. We also never borrowed money to buy cows.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

I am a newbie with out any pens to work cattle.
If anybody has a design or pictures for a simple and small pen to work cattle
I could sure use it.
Not much of a welder but I do work by day at a lumber yard so cheap culled lumber is my best option


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alaska said:


> I am a newbie with out any pens to work cattle.
> If anybody has a design or pictures for a simple and small pen to work cattle
> I could sure use it.
> Not much of a welder but I do work by day at a lumber yard so cheap culled lumber is my best option


Look here Cattle Handling and Working Facilities

Google "wood cattle pen designs" you get all kinds of info

and here Beef - LSU AgCenter

here
http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publications/PDF/MP239.pdf

You get the idea


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

What is the earliest age to safely have an angus heifer bred?


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

Alaska said:


> What is the earliest age to safely have an angus heifer bred?


15months IMO thats about when they reach puberty. Its rare that one gets bred earlier than that but it does happen occasionally.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

Alaska said:


> I am a newbie with out any pens to work cattle.
> If anybody has a design or pictures for a simple and small pen to work cattle
> I could sure use it.
> Not much of a welder but I do work by day at a lumber yard so cheap culled lumber is my best option


HDRider had good links. But, honestly, in the beginning, go simple and cheap but good. 

For example, if you start out with just 4 or 5 cows, you don't need anything elaborate. One catch pen that narrows down to a working chute and head gate. That can be home built. Then, you need a pen on the other side for the animal to be turned into when they come out of the chute. There are times, you want to observe a cow or calf after working before you turn them back out on pasture. So, you need a holding/sorting/temporary pen. Basically, something as simple as a working chute between two pens.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

ycanchu2 said:


> 15months IMO thats about when they reach puberty. Its rare that one gets bred earlier than that but it does happen occasionally.


That is probably the norm for most cattlemen that breed any standard sized beef breed heifer. However, we don't breed until they are 19 months of age.

Our reasons: It almost eliminated our "first calf heifer" calving problems. I'll explain our way of thinking.

A heifer has reached the ability to breed at 15 and can usually easily calve at 24 months of age. BUT... just because she can calve at 24 months doesn't mean that she has reached enough maturity to have fully come into her maternal instincts. 

We feel that extra 4 months gives them time to finish coming into their maternal instincts to the point that we almost eliminated the "cow claiming her first calf" problems. Also, we didn't have as many birthing problems related to calving out a young heifer. That 4 months allows her to be able to better handle a bigger calf, that she should've been smaller. lol 

You can always breed a small birthweight bull to a heifer, but it is no guarantee that the calf will be small. 

But, to answer your question, most people breed at 15 months. We breed at 19 months.


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## G. Seddon (May 16, 2005)

PaulNKS, I agree with you completely! I've also found that they are much better mothers when they're a little bit older. Have also held heifers back as long as needed to time their calving to early spring or mid fall.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Alaska 

700 to 750 lbs


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

agmantoo said:


> Alaska
> 
> 700 to 750 lbs


I agree with you on almost everything, but respectfully, heifers should be at that weight by the time they are less than a year old... say around 10 or 11 months which is way too young to breed. If they are that small at 15 months or 19 months, then there is a problem either with genetics or with the nutrition.

Most things with cattle are based on weights, except for breeding.

While on the subject of breeding and heifers. For the newbies if you have a heifer that was a twin to a bull, either sell her for slaughter or put her in the freezer. They are usually sterile.


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## ramiller5675 (Mar 31, 2009)

How big are your cows if your heifers are 750 lbs. at 10 or 11 months?

The rule of thumb I've always heard is that a heifer should be about 66% of her mature weight when she is ready to be bred, which usually happens at about 13 to 15 months old.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

ramiller5675 said:


> How big are your cows if your heifers are 750 lbs. at 10 or 11 months?
> 
> The rule of thumb I've always heard is that a heifer should be about 66% of her mature weight when she is ready to be bred, which usually happens at about 13 to 15 months old.


How big? as in how tall? It depends on the breed and the frame. 

I don't know anything about the 66% stat. It could be. That would be close. Take a Hereford cow as an example. Mature, she will weigh 1200 to 1500 pounds. So, would 66% be somewhere between 800 and 1000 pounds? I don't have my calculator. lol


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

PaulNKS said:


> That is probably the norm for most cattlemen that breed any standard sized beef breed heifer. However, we don't breed until they are 19 months of age.
> 
> Our reasons: It almost eliminated our "first calf heifer" calving problems. I'll explain our way of thinking.
> 
> ...


15 months seems to be the best time for me cause in keeps my calving time in sync with the rest of the herd. if I am trying to have calves from Mid Feb to 1st of May time frame I want those heifers to breed around 15 months so they will calve in that window, if I waited untill 19 months then they would calve 1st of August.....out of sync with the rest of the herd unless you like fall calving which i don't.....dry cows are easier to winter. Theoretically the older the better, but you can have idiots in any group of heifers at any age and calving problems can happen with older cows as well. My cows are crossed up with a touch of beefmaster and some with a touch of charlois as well as angus so i rarely have calving problems as one might have with a purebred angus.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

After we stopped having a bull with the cows 24/7/365, we went to two calf crops... spring and fall. We've always culled cows that were not easy keepers, even in winter. With hay and protein, a nursing cow should be okay in the winter in most areas. Not only that, you have to look at the markets. One of the times of the year that cattle prices are up is in the early spring when people are buying calves to put on new pasture. So, we always want calves to sell twice each year. Not only that, selling more than one calf crop per year can help average the selling price.

I will add that when growing up in west Texas, we never kept calves over winter and each fall all cows were preg checked. All calves went to town and all cows that were open went to town.


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

PaulNKS said:


> After we stopped having a bull with the cows 24/7/365, we went to two calf crops... spring and fall. We've always culled cows that were not easy keepers, even in winter. With hay and protein, a nursing cow should be okay in the winter in most areas. Not only that, you have to look at the markets. One of the times of the year that cattle prices are up is in the early spring when people are buying calves to put on new pasture. So, we always want calves to sell twice each year. Not only that, selling more than one calf crop per year can help average the selling price.
> 
> I will add that when growing up in west Texas, we never kept calves over winter and each fall all cows were preg checked. All calves went to town and all cows that were open went to town.


There are different ways to do things,whatever works, periodic sales at certain times of the year and throughout the year would help cash flow.
Right now, my main objective is maximizing my pasture and cattle numbers thru IRG. This is my first year at this, while having farmed and raised cattle all my life, I can see so much potential already in one year. I believe it is possible to double my forage output....if I can, that would be like buying another farm.
I have come to believe that IRG is the final frontier...the future of farming.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

ycanchu2 said:


> 15months IMO thats about when they reach puberty. Its rare that one gets bred earlier than that but it does happen occasionally.


Heifers can start cycling a long time before that. Depending on their breeding and their plane of nutrition. Many don't, but everyone should be aware that it can and does happen. Get the girls and boys separated soon as they are weaned.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

MO_cows said:


> Heifers can start cycling a long time before that. Depending on their breeding and their plane of nutrition. Many don't, but everyone should be aware that it can and does happen. Get the girls and boys separated soon as they are weaned.


A heifer will usually have her first heat cycle as early as 9 months.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

ycanchu2 said:


> There are different ways to do things,whatever works, periodic sales at certain times of the year and throughout the year would help cash flow.
> Right now, my main objective is maximizing my pasture and cattle numbers thru IRG. This is my first year at this, while having farmed and raised cattle all my life, I can see so much potential already in one year. I believe it is possible to double my forage output....if I can, that would be like buying another farm.
> I have come to believe that IRG is the final frontier...the future of farming.


It's nice to sell throughout the year, but at a sale barn, you will usually get more money per calf if they are sold in larger groups rather than one, two, or three calves. 

If you have the time it takes to dedicate to IRG, it's great. But, when you have 5 or 6 farms and a lot going on, it can be impractical. I would love to e able to do it, but I don't have the time to dedicate to setting up, hauling water, etc.

Here, we do have ponds to water stock. But if I set up IRG there are some paddocks that would not have water access and I'd be hauling water every day. Not only do I not have the time for that, I also don't have the time to be moving cattle very often. 

I wish I could find a way to do it... (Okay.. maybe I'm too lazy to do it. lol)

In reality. I'm to the point that the operation is making a nice profit. My website is also a nice revenue stream for just 2 or 3 hours of work per day. At 51 years old, I really don't want to have to work as hard as I did for the last 20 years getting this set up. I spent the early part of my life working like a dog and getting things set up so that when I got to the age I am now, I could sit back and relax more and enjoy the last 1/3 to1/2 of my life.

The other thing for us... we like to travel and have a 5th wheel RV. IRG would keep us from being able to travel in the summers.

Anyone that has the time and resources to put into IRG I think is on the right track. 

You stated that it was the future of farming. It has always been a practice in other parts of the world. It's just here that we are lagging in that respect.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

IRG = MIG?



PaulNKS said:


> After we stopped having a bull with the cows 24/7/365, we went to two calf crops... spring and fall.


Was it the herd size that got you to go to two crops/year? Right now we are pulling the bulls to avoid births in the dead of winter (mostly for self-comfort and marginally to minimize the chance of death due to extremes (and because we don't have to think to hard about it yet)). The net result of that is that we have calves dropping from March thru December. 

How difficult is it to get a herd in sync?

Last question: I assume "spring and fall" relates to the birthing, not the weaning?


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

*It's nice to sell throughout the year, but at a sale barn, you will usually get more money per calf if they are sold in larger groups rather than one, two, or three calves.

If you have the time it takes to dedicate to IRG, it's great. But, when you have 5 or 6 farms and a lot going on, it can be impractical. I would love to e able to do it, but I don't have the time to dedicate to setting up, hauling water, etc.

Here, we do have ponds to water stock. But if I set up IRG there are some paddocks that would not have water access and I'd be hauling water every day. Not only do I not have the time for that, I also don't have the time to be moving cattle very often.

I wish I could find a way to do it..*

I market roughly 4 times through the year. As for as time allocations. I have other interests that I also have time commitments...IRG is a time saver not a time consumer. I now have more than 3 times as many brood cows as I started with. Since I make no hay nor do I fed any grain that effort and expense is avoided. Excess land that was hay land is now leased to others and is income producing. I use to go through sweat and worry that are no longer expended. My day to day involvement is approximately 30 minutes. Just recently I have brought a neighbor woman that is interested in cattle into my operation. She is eager to learn and is extremely dependable and she will look after my herd if I need to take a trip. As you recognize, so do I, that we are different in what we do and where we live and what either of us do may not be complimentary or beneficial to the other. However, of the visitors that come here to observe IRG they seem to leave having difficulty believing how simple the operation is and how little time is involved.

*In reality. I'm to the point that the operation is making a nice profit. My website is also a nice revenue stream for just 2 or 3 hours of work per day. At 51 years old, I really don't want to have to work as hard as I did for the last 20 years getting this set up. I spent the early part of my life working like a dog and getting things set up so that when I got to the age I am now, I could sit back and relax more and enjoy the last 1/3 to1/2 of my life.*

I do not have a website but the bulk of the comments in the above paragraph we have in common. 

*Anyone that has the time and resources to put into IRG I think is on the right track.
*
IMO with IRG you would have more time and considerably more profit while requiring less resources. As is said "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" You need to adapt IGR to your place and your location and enjoy the results. Have a good day and keep posting. I like reading your inputs.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

PaulNKS said:


> Here, we do have ponds to water stock. But if I set up IRG there are some paddocks that would not have water access and I'd be hauling water every day. Not only do I not have the time for that, I also don't have the time to be moving cattle very often.
> 
> I wish I could find a way to do it... (Okay.. maybe I'm too lazy to do it. lol)


If you can manage just a few paddocks with water access, you can use a moving/advancing wire to start the cattle off in small area close to the water, then expand their grazing space each day. Their walk to water will get a bit longer each day, but not any worse than with continuous grazing of the same plot. Then rotate to the other paddock starting the wire close to the water again, allowing the first paddock to rest...


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## ramiller5675 (Mar 31, 2009)

dlskidmore said:


> If you can manage just a few paddocks with water access, you can use a moving/advancing wire to start the cattle off in small area close to the water, then expand their grazing space each day. Their walk to water will get a bit longer each day, but not any worse than with continuous grazing of the same plot. Then rotate to the other paddock starting the wire close to the water again, allowing the first paddock to rest...


Have you had any experience doing that when the only water on a quarter-section is a single pond in one of the corners of the property? And, the land is rolling with groups of trees and/or brush scattered here and there?


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

ramiller5675 said:


> Have you had any experience doing that when the only water on a quarter-section is a single pond in one of the corners of the property? And, the land is rolling with groups of trees and/or brush scattered here and there?





PaulNKS said:


> It's nice to sell throughout the year, but at a sale barn, you will usually get more money per calf if they are sold in larger groups rather than one, two, or three calves.
> 
> If you have the time it takes to dedicate to IRG, it's great. But, when you have 5 or 6 farms and a lot going on, it can be impractical. I would love to e able to do it, but I don't have the time to dedicate to setting up, hauling water, etc.
> 
> ...


Ramiller.....Agmantoo would be the voice of experience, but basically you would make a lane/alleyway 30;or so wide M/L thru your field to your pond and then allocate each side of the lane using polywire perpendicular to your lane fence wire.

PaulNKS....Certainly if you are satisfied with the way you operation is going then that is quite alright by me.
There are however a couple of misconceptions about IRG-MIG that most people have had that I had for years.
1) Is that you have to have water in every paddock...not so. You make a lane/alleyway to a common water source then build your paddocks around your lane. I would agree with you, if I had to haul water everyday, I wouldn't care how good it was, I would forget it.
2)Is that you are having to always get the cattle up and move them to their new pasture. I used to have in my mind that with IRG I would have to go out everyday or 2 or 3 and get the cattle up and drive them to their new pasture with them kicking and screaming so to speak. But not so..after cattle have cleaned up a paddock they are READY to move to a new one all you have to do is open the gate.
I remember years ago say 30 or more years ago that I asked my Dad one day..."Why don't we do rotational grazing" because I heard about it at a farm meeting and thought it sounded interesting. He looked at me and said" Do you want to be getting up cattle everyday or two and moving them? I said no....but that was because in his mind and mine... getting up the cattle was a big job getting everybody we could to go roundup and drive them halfway across the farm and them not really wanting to go! But now I know thats not the way it is.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

I group my feeder calves when they are sent to market because as stated the grouped calves will bring more than if they were sold individually.

My production practices differ but they work for me and my location. I use bulls that sire small calves to minimize calving issues. I do want a calf from a heifer on her 2nd birthday and I want a calf each 10 1/2 to 11 months following her first calf. For me giving the heifer an additional 4 months to mature is lost opportunity. If I introduce 9 to 10 heifers to the herd each year then that is 36 to 40 weeks worth of gestation period lost and a reduction of 4 calves to market. Since I feed no grain my cattle are less prone to put on weight during the 3 trimester and typically calve unassisted. As I have stated numerous times, I am not a midwife to a cow. I feel if I am having calving issues it is due to something I have created. By calving year round the need for a number of bulls is reduced. I only have one mature bull at this time. He averages servicing 8 to 10 cow per month. The key to being profitable in my operation is controlling input costs and selling as many calves as possible. I do not have high milk yielding cows nor do I want them. I want cattle that will remain as near body condition score 5 as possible all year with no supplement feed. Having calves that wean at a good marketable weight a month or more before the cow has the calf she is carrying is efficient enough to meet my goals. Carrying a calf for an additional month costs me literally nothing in out of pocket expense.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

CrownRanch said:


> Was it the herd size that got you to go to two crops/year?


Partly. The other part was to protect against the markets. If you sell more than one time per year, you aren't at the mercy of the market on just that day. If the prices are low that day, then you may hedge by selling later in the year when prices may be higher. It's more of a hedging situation.



> Right now we are pulling the bulls to avoid births in the dead of winter (mostly for self-comfort and marginally to minimize the chance of death due to extremes (and because we don't have to think to hard about it yet)). The net result of that is that we have calves dropping from March thru December.


In your part of the country, you won't really have to worry about deaths due to "severity". Beef cattle are usually hardy. Most calves are born in January and February. However, we like to have them in March/April and August/September.


> How difficult is it to get a herd in sync?


 without using injections, you have to hold some back.



> Last question: I assume "spring and fall" relates to the birthing, not the weaning?


Yes.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

I honestly don't know enough about IRG to carry on much of a discussion. However, here, our grazing "season" is usually May 1 to October 1. That's only five out of the 12 months. So, hay is fed more months than not. Also, the way our ponds are placed, it would be difficult. This isn't flat land. It's hills, creeks, rivers, some timber, etc. I've tried to come up with several configurations for the cattle we have, but there would be no way for me to get around hauling water at least 1/3 of the time. 

I will say this, I'll keep looking into it because I know we would benefit from it, if we can get it to work on our farms. I'm also not a fan of movable fencing. So, if I do it, it will be with permanent fencing.


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## Awnry Abe (Mar 21, 2012)

Keep this good stuff coming. It is encouraging for a nube like me to see success in the varying approaches of you guys with experience. 

PaulNKS, half of my land looks ready-made for IRG. The other half is as you described. Maybe I'll give that half to the goats. :spinsmiley:


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

PaulNKS said:


> I honestly don't know enough about IRG to carry on much of a discussion. However, here, our grazing "season" is usually May 1 to October 1. That's only five out of the 12 months. So, hay is fed more months than not. Also, the way our ponds are placed, it would be difficult. This isn't flat land. It's hills, creeks, rivers, some timber, etc. I've tried to come up with several configurations for the cattle we have, but there would be no way for me to get around hauling water at least 1/3 of the time.
> 
> I will say this, I'll keep looking into it because I know we would benefit from it, if we can get it to work on our farms. I'm also not a fan of movable fencing. So, if I do it, it will be with permanent fencing.


This thread

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/li...-any-ideas-converting-rotational-grazing.html

is an absolute wealth of info and stories on rotational grazing.

Agman is real helpful (like you Paul) with those of us studying that practice. He is very active on that thread. I actually visited his farm, and man o man, what an inspiration.


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

PaulNKS said:


> I honestly don't know enough about IRG to carry on much of a discussion. However, here, our grazing "season" is usually May 1 to October 1. That's only five out of the 12 months. So, hay is fed more months than not. Also, the way our ponds are placed, it would be difficult. This isn't flat land. It's hills, creeks, rivers, some timber, etc. I've tried to come up with several configurations for the cattle we have, but there would be no way for me to get around hauling water at least 1/3 of the time.
> 
> I will say this, I'll keep looking into it because I know we would benefit from it, if we can get it to work on our farms. I'm also not a fan of movable fencing. So, if I do it, it will be with permanent fencing.


 here, our grazing "season" is usually May 1 to October 1. That's only five out of the 12 months. So, hay is fed more months than not. 
Do you have hard winters that it doesn't warm up untill May 1 and gets cold around Oct 1 ?


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## SueMc (Jan 10, 2010)

Paul or anyone else; will you discuss feeding those 400-500 lb calves obtained at the sale barn? Our goal is to feed pasture/hay, but what is good feeding practice for the young ones? Thanks


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I found this excellent series in Beef Magazine that I thought went very well with Paulâs series.

This is the link to the last post so far:
Profit Per Cow, Or Per Acre? | Strategic Planning For The Ranch

You might want to back all the way up and read the whole series. It is fantastic and applies to big guys, but we little guys can learn a lot from it too.

It is written by:
Burke Teichert, consultant on strategic planning for ranches, is retired as vice president and general manager of Deseret. He can be reached at [email protected].


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

HDRider

I have read the article 3 times and my conclusion is that the article is just semantics. If you can interpret the article differently please give me your thoughts.

I sell my cattle and my net profit divided by the number of animals sold give me my profit per animal. I divide my acreage into that profit and it gives me my profit per acre. I then compare that to what I perceive is the profit per acre that grain farmers make in my area. Mentally I compare my risks to their risks to see how I am doing. Also you have seen my place and it is apparent that only a portion of the land that I am growing forage on could be used from grain farming. There is no net profit without the animals. Marketed animals, to the buyer at a profit or on a per acre basis is the true results of the ability of the land to produce, the management of the animals and the managers skill to control input costs IMO.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

agmantoo said:


> HDRider
> 
> I have read the article 3 times and my conclusion is that the article is just semantics. If you can interpret the article differently please give me your thoughts.
> 
> I sell my cattle and my net profit divided by the number of animals sold give me my profit per animal. I divide my acreage into that profit and it gives me my profit per acre. I then compare that to what I perceive is the profit per acre that grain farmers make in my area. Mentally I compare my risks to their risks to see how I am doing. Also you have seen my place and it is apparent that only a portion of the land that I am growing forage on could be used from grain farming. There is no net profit without the animals. Marketed animals, to the buyer at a profit or on a per acre basis is the true results of the ability of the land to produce, the management of the animals and the managers skill to control input costs IMO.



I wonder if the implied message may be toward higher stocking rates per acre as a goal.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

I thought his point was that small cattle are more efficient. I have a half holstein milk cow and her calf (half beef breed) is growing like a weed, it's already caught calves quite a bit older than her. But is the size of the calf the only thing that matters? Of course not and that's what the article is trying to elucidate.


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## ramiller5675 (Mar 31, 2009)

HDRider said:


> I wonder if the implied message may be toward higher stocking rates per acre as a goal.


I think he is advocating the type of thinking that you need a moderate-sized (1000-1100 lb) cow that can manage on mainly grass and hay without a lot of supplementing and will wean a 500-550 lb. calf. In other words, a low input type of operation.

Compared to a 'high profit per cow' operation that has larger cows that wean calves that weigh a lot more but need more inputs and acreage to produce those calves. (1400 lb. cows that wean 750 lb. calves after a lot of supplemental feeding). 

Stocking rate doesn't have much do with it besides the fact that you should be able to stock more 1100 lb. cows than 1400 lb. cows on the same acreage.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

ramiller5675

*Compared to a 'high profit per cow' operation that has larger cows that wean calves that weigh a lot more but need more inputs and acreage to produce those calves. (1400 lb. cows that wean 750 lb. calves after a lot of supplemental feeding).
*

Not trying to be argumentative but where would the profit be derived in the above statement?


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## ramiller5675 (Mar 31, 2009)

You're right, there wouldn't be more profit because it would take more inputs to produce that calf. 

But, I thought the article was trying to say that some people simply look at that 750 lb. calf and what they sold it for compared to what they could have sold a 500 lb. calf for without fully considering the inputs it took to produce that 750 lb. calf. 

I'm not sure what the article was actually trying to say, but I know that a smaller cow that weans a smaller calf is usually an easier keeper and should be more profitable. And, big cows that wean bigger calves don't necessarily make you more money. 

Beyond that, I don't know what the article was about.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

ramiller5675 said:


> You're right, there wouldn't be more profit because it would take more inputs to produce that calf.
> 
> But, I thought the article was trying to say that some people simply look at that 750 lb. calf and what they sold it for compared to what they could have sold a 500 lb. calf for without fully considering the inputs it took to produce that 750 lb. calf.
> 
> ...


This is where your management style plays the most important part... culling. You cull those hard keepers, low milk producers, slow gainers, etc. You can easily develop your herd to produce larger weaned calves than just 500 pounds with no additional supplements. Yes, sometimes during the winter, I will add protein either through tubs or liquid feed (QLF). 

Keep in mind that buyers buying weaned calves want to see calves that are not too fleshy, calves that will have room to put on weight and in the least amount of time as possible. When those calves are bought, then the plans change to cost of gain per pound or the feed conversion rates, whereas the cow/calf operator isn't as concerned with feed conversion rates if he/she has a grass fed operation. BUT the operator is concerned with higher weaning weights, cows that have higher milk production resulting in heavier weaned calves.

As far as the poster that commented on the Holstein cross calves. Yes, they may grow very quickly. But, you will get hit hard at the sale barn because a cattle buyer can see the dairy in that calf, even if it doesn't look obvious to you. If you are wanting a cow/calf/beef operation, stick with traditional standard sized beef breeds for the highest rate of return.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

Sorry for my 2 week absence. We took a couple foster boys camping at a lake for a few days. Then coming home, I have been working long days just to get some things caught up with no time for the forums.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

PaulNKS

*BUT the operator is concerned with higher weaning weights, cows that have higher milk production resulting in heavier weaned calves.
*

This is one of the very few areas that we are not in agreement. I want no more than a moderate milk producer to produce my calves. I feed nothing but forage all year. Some seasons my forage is not the best and that is what my cattle get. A heavy milk producing cow will give up body condition on marginal forage to support the calf. If the cow loses too much body condition she will either delay or not breed back timely. I want the cows producing calves and I want the calves to start consuming forage ASAP. Low cost forage is what I am marketing and as you stated the buyers are wanting calves with potential and they are not wanting to pay for pounds. I learned a long time ago that the buyers are a lot smarter than me at judging a calf. I try to produce what I believe they want and I watch the sale prices to observe what weights they are buying. I then compare where my forage supply exists and make my decision to sale or not. Trying to accomplish a weaning weight that may impress someone has no meaning to me. Neither does selling a calf a month early or late with my feed costs where they are. My best returns this year was on a lot of 412 lb. steers grossing $820 each. Even with plenty of good forage I would market calves here at less than 550 lbs at this time.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

Even a beef cow with a body condition score of 5 is considered moderate to thin, but is ideal for rebreeding.

Not all heavy milking cows will lose body condition to a point of causing problems 

The cow/calf beef game is all about genetics.....not necessarily registered vs. grade stock. Anyone can change the genetics within his/her herd through culling and breeding. _You develop the herd you want._


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## ycanchu2 (Oct 21, 2011)

PaulNKS and anyone else.
This ground may have been covered somewhat before but I wanted to get some opinions about bull calves and heifers running together.
I have some calves that are coming up on about 6 mo. old and the bull calves are trying to ride the heifers.
Is there any chance one of them could breed a heifer?, the heifers are not standing still for them and also the herd bull isn't interested either. He probably knows the young bulls don't know what their doing.
What say you?
PS They will weigh around 5 to 6 hundred#


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

ycanchu2 said:


> PaulNKS and anyone else.
> This ground may have been covered somewhat before but I wanted to get some opinions about bull calves and heifers running together.
> I have some calves that are coming up on about 6 mo. old and the bull calves are trying to ride the heifers.
> Is there any chance one of them could breed a heifer?, the heifers are not standing still for them and also the herd bull isn't interested either.
> ...


Either cut the bulls or separate them (unless you band). Yes the heifers can breed as young as 9 months.. maybe sooner in some cases.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

PaulNKS said:


> Keep in mind that buyers buying weaned calves want to see calves that are "xyz".


All producers have to remember that while you get a higher price by producing what buyers prefer, you may do better by producing what they're willing to buy, but costs you a lot less to produce. Most of us need to think "optimum production" rather than "maximum production". 



PaulNKS said:


> As far as the poster that commented on the Holstein cross calves. Yes, they may grow very quickly. But, you will get hit hard at the sale barn because a cattle buyer can see the dairy in that calf, even if it doesn't look obvious to you. If you are wanting a cow/calf/beef operation, stick with traditional standard sized beef breeds for the highest rate of return.


I didn't mean to suggest that anyone use Holsteins in a cow calf operation. She's our dairy cow and I was simply pointing out that bigger is not necessarily better.


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

> Keep in mind that buyers buying weaned calves want to see calves that are "xyz".





Gabriel said:


> All producers have to remember that while you get a higher price by producing what buyers prefer, you may do better by producing what they're willing to buy, but costs you a lot less to produce. Most of us need to think "optimum production" rather than "maximum production".
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't mean to suggest that anyone use Holsteins in a cow calf operation. She's our dairy cow and I was simply pointing out that bigger is not necessarily better.


Please don't change what I write if you are going to quote me. I specifically stated that buyers want to see calves that are not too fleshy. I didn't state that buyers want to see "xyz" as in raising animals that may or may not change. This is a standard you will find anywhere in the country when selling commercial calves (i.e sale barn). They don't want fleshy calves. They want nice sized frames that they can add weight to. That's not just an opinion. It is fact.

Keep in mind that this thread was only started to explain how WE built and maintain a very profitable cow/calf operation and how we used that to build our land and cattle holdings and passing that information on to others that weren't as fortunate as us to be raised in it and come to it later in life. This is about us passing on information just to help others.

When you have a cow/calf operation, you aren't raising what the buyers may be willing to buy. You are raising what they dictate. You are raising what they WILL buy, not what they MIGHT buy. There is a big difference. If you don't raise what they dictate, your cow/calf operation will not utilize it's full profitability.


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

PaulNKS said:


> Please don't change what I write if you are going to quote me.


Didn't mean to offend. In attempting to save time typing, it often comes back to bite me.


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## FarmerDavid (Jul 16, 2012)

I really liked this thread and thought it was a good place to ask this question. I'm doing better in this my 3rd year having cattle. My cattle lose condition late summer when the fescue starts to go dorment. What's the best way to fight this? I could give them feed if that's the answer but that's pretty pricy and honestly I don't have enough money to feed them for 6-10 weeks. I provided protein tubs this year and that has helped but still feel like something else is needed.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Overseed with a different grass that does better in late summer? You'll have less spring feed, more summer feed.


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