# STILL 'think" a bolt action is a combat rifle?



## credee (Aug 17, 2013)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3gf_5MR4tE[/ame]


----------



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

That ain't combat, it's a good shooter on a range. In case you haven't noticed, there is no one shooting back, no RPGs, no one hiding in a mosque, hospital or school full of women and children.
Until you have been there and done that, your opinions are just armchair quarterbacking by a guy that never made the team. I have the t-shirt, literally, so I KNOW a bolt gun can still do battle.


----------



## MichaelK! (Oct 22, 2010)

Most bolt actions would not be called upon to shoot at targets 25 feet away. Ask that same guy to hit targets at 250 yards and see what happens?

Granted, once you get in that situation, with multiple zombies just feet way, I'd rather have more than just a bolt action, any bolt action!


----------



## credee (Aug 17, 2013)

so can a bow and arrow, under IDEAL condtions. If you "think" that a master like Jerry can't handle what a bunch of twits handle, you're badly mistaken. put jerry braced, around cover, or in the bipod, and he'll hit men so fast, at ranges that you can't believe such speed is possible. A bolt action is one half assed aimed shot every 1.2 seconds, at best. Good Ar's group 10" at 1000 yds, so theres no reason at all to handicap yourself with a bolt action.


----------



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

credee said:


> so can a bow and arrow, under IDEAL condtions. If you "think" that a master like Jerry can't handle what a bunch of twits handle, you're badly mistaken. put jerry braced, around cover, or in the bipod, and he'll hit men so fast, at ranges that you can't believe such speed is possible. A bolt action is one half assed aimed shot every 1.2 seconds, at best. Good Ar's group 10" at 1000 yds, so theres no reason at all to handicap yourself with a bolt action.


Doesn't matter what an AR can group from a bench. It matters what the shooter can do when he actually has to kill another human being while said human being and his buddies are shooting back with machine guns (upto and including 14.5 mm to 25mm) and RPGs. Under those conditions even Jerry's accuracy is going to suffer.
Most people have inhibitions against killing , even justified. Also most people react poorly during their first few gunfights and their accuracy goes to crap. True story. 
And lastly, mechanical accuracy and speed of follow shots aren't the only determining factors in winning a gunfight. Shooters win the the gunfight, not the gun.


----------



## credee (Aug 17, 2013)

and sorry to have to explain this to such an "experienced" vet, but things doNOT often go as planned, and you DO often need rapidfire, up close, night vision, etc, that the bolt action can't offer. The bolt action is just a hunk of deadwoo these days, that some people just can't let float on to where it belongs. history, back before we knew better. Strangely enough, we have Barbrara Boxer and Feinstein to thank for it. With her silly predjudice against the AR's, she stirred up billions of $ worth of interest in making better ones. 

Once again, I have a news flash for you. They dont use bench rests at the Nra HIGH POWER rifle matches, and 223 AR's have OWNED the 600 yd line, since about 1997, when Berger first offered his 80 gr VLD bullets. Now, you can keep trying to flail a dead horse all you want, but I aint the one who is wrong here.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

no question you can get more shots on target with a semi , full auto is mostly a waste when you can run a semi fast and controlled without wasting ammo 

but the marines are still using bolt guns in combat with snipers , that makes it a combat gun 

the M1 garand was such an improvement over the bolt guns of the time because it could fire 8 round in less time and keep them on target and bring the same power behind the round , part of the M1's genios was putting the gas port in the last inch of the barrel, the op rod didn't really get moving till the round was out of the barrel allowing the gun to stay on target till the bullet could no longer be affected by the movement of the action.

it isn't likely that anyone is going to choose to take a bolt gun into modern warfare , but it presents some interesting options as a guerrilla gun.


----------



## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

Wow! Are they still used?


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the marines call it the M40A5 

the army's version is the M24 

both built on a Remington model 700 action

when they found they needed extra range they even went to one in 300 win mag with a 220 gr sierra match king bullet pushing their range out past 1000 yards the round is now super sonic to 1400 yards


----------



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

credee said:


> and sorry to have to explain this to such an "experienced" vet, but things doNOT often go as planned, and you DO often need rapidfire, up close, night vision, etc, that the bolt action can't offer. The bolt action is just a hunk of deadwoo these days, that some people just can't let float on to where it belongs. history, back before we knew better. Strangely enough, we have Barbrara Boxer and Feinstein to thank for it. With her silly predjudice against the AR's, she stirred up billions of $ worth of interest in making better ones.
> 
> Once again, I have a news flash for you. They dont use bench rests at the Nra HIGH POWER rifle matches, and 223 AR's have OWNED the 600 yd line, since about 1997, when Berger first offered his 80 gr VLD bullets. Now, you can keep trying to flail a dead horse all you want, but I aint the one who is wrong here.


I have news for you, NVDs have nothing to do with rapid fire. In fact rapid fire burns out NVDs negating their utility on the battlefield. What the bolt action can provide that ARs do not is penetration. There were many occasions where hundreds of rounds had to be fired to reduce a mud brick wall and kill a man or endanger noncombatant women & children by using a 50 cal. In every case I could have resolved the situation with a single shot from my 8mm Mauser, if I'd been allowed to bring it. Additionally the 556 FMJ round is a p1$$ poor killer at any range beyond room size, so there were a few occasions where guys I shot (especially at range) had to be shot again. Wouldn't have been the case if I'd had my Mauser, or an 03A3 Springfield.
On the subject of the dead horse, those 600 yard NRA targets still aren't shooting back. And since I went 10 for 10 at the 500 every other year with a 14" barreled M4 & battle ready FMJs, I'm not real blown away by what some dude w/a match grade 20" + barrel & match rounds is doing on a pleasant afternoon at a well manicured range. Tell you what, you go sign on with black water or whatever they call themselves now. Hear a few shots fired in anger. Then come back and tell me how your own muzzle blast (FROM A 556) had such a dramatic affect on your accuracy. The simple point is you're arguing from a position of ignorance and I am not.


----------



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> the marines call it the M40A5
> 
> the army's version is the M24
> 
> ...


The M40 is built off the Remington model 40 target rifles not actual 700 actions.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

what I was reading said based on the 700 but didn't specify the 40 target action , but that would make sense.


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

my father in law new nothing about guns before joining the marines , but he knew he liked his m14 in basic , and he knew he didn't like the m16 he was issued in Vietnam , he would have much preferred to have his M14 back .

it is possible to have the power of the bolt in a semi , i wonder if it would have changed anything if everyone kept their m14's would there be fewer dead or would it have just drug out the war more years.

yes I get that the current AR15 / M4 has been upgraded and made more dependable than the original m16a1 and that lacquered ammo played a large part in much of the problems with them.

we are going to see the wall in DC with him in a few weeks , what names would have changed , it makes you wonder.


----------



## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

Success is all about using the right tool for the job. Sometimes the job requires full auto, sometimes bolt action. Occasionally it requires a .50 cal mounted on a C-130.


----------



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> my father in law new nothing about guns before joining the marines , but he knew he liked his m14 in basic , and he knew he didn't like the m16 he was issued in Vietnam , he would have much preferred to have his M14 back .
> 
> it is possible to have the power of the bolt in a semi , i wonder if it would have changed anything if everyone kept their m14's would there be fewer dead or would it have just drug out the war more years.
> 
> ...


True, and I do have an 8mm FN-49 if I feel the need to take out multiple vehicles our guys on heavy guns.


----------



## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

MichaelK wrote:
_Most bolt actions would not be called upon to shoot at targets 25 feet away..........._


Your are correct in this .... except if you have a good bolt action rifle with a good scope ...... you would have started rapidly destroying your enemy attackers out about 300 or 400 yards away so none would be alive to even get 25 feet away let alone 25 yards away ..... Before they hit the 100 yard mark ... I would hope that all your attackers would be lying face down in their own puddles ...... 
Most people believe they will shoot and drop anyone that attacks. Your enemy has the same mindset ...that they will take you out. In a firefight ...someone will lose ..... even getting wounded isn't an option as you may bleed to death. I would prefer to hide and pick them off one at a time, not shooting from the same spot over and over so the enemy figures out where I'm at.
If it's that bad of a situation..... I'd rather move on and avoid a long drawn out firefight to begin with. I don't have a support team, a warehouse team and a C-130 to bring me more ammo and supplies if I run low. I can only carry so much along with changes of clothing, food, water, self-reliance accoutrements, sleeping gear etc. 

_Ohio Rusty ><>_


----------



## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Shoot what you know, shoot what your good with. stop arguing like eigth graders. In my neck of the woods the best weapon is whatever I have in my hand. Not because of the weapon, but because it's my neck of the woods. The hole in your chest really doesn't care what kind of platform the bullet came out of.


----------



## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

In the worst of situations, I want something that will work in the worst of situations, like a hammer, simple, effective, dependable. To me, that means a bolt action with iron sights. I'll take an AR on the side, if it don't slow me down.


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Of course that guy is impressive with his ability . . .No dought about it . . . . .

But the 'bolts' I'm thinking about will only take one chunk of lead to put down the bad guy..

So what is the point of so many chunks of lead on the same bad guy at such a mini range......

. . ."Spray and pray"

You can argue all you want, but the guys mind is already made up that 'bolts' are no good.

If things get very very nasty in this great country, it will be 'bolts' at very long range that will be a very large disruptive factor to the bad guy jack boots.......................


----------



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Not sure if anyone has noticed, but the OP has been banned, so no need to argue this one any more...


----------



## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

simi-steading said:


> Not sure if anyone has noticed, but the OP has been banned, so no need to argue this one any more...


Why? He was great entertainment.


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Entertaining perhaps . . . . .
But the "attitude" he projected in his posts would make him a person I would NOT want as a neighbor...........


----------



## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Enfield...mad minute...look it up.
I know he was banned, but he can still, possibly, see new posts....

Matt


----------



## Limon (Aug 25, 2010)

bowdonkey said:


> Why? He was great entertainment.


Really? I found him annoying.

I'm pretty sure he's a semi-famous Internet nut who manages to get banned from every site he tries to join. The Rambo-esque philosophy, but no real understanding, and the crappy attitude were very familiar. I kept waiting for him to explain his theory on how to shoot down the Space Shuttle.


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

........"Rambo-esque philosophy" . . . . . . . . .I do like that.........

I can empty my 30 round clip faster than you can . . .na . .na

. . . . How very wonderful . . . . . .


----------



## MD Steader (Mar 11, 2010)

Interesting no one named his guy Jerry miculek prob the fastest shooter in the world ought now. Usually uses a revolver


----------



## beowoulf90 (Jan 13, 2004)

deaconjim said:


> Success is all about using the right tool for the job. Sometimes the job requires full auto, sometimes bolt action. Occasionally it requires a .50 cal mounted on a C-130.


Kinda makes me think of Spectre..(my era) the version before that was Puff..


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

I have a friend who used to fly in a puff , he and his crew had the only confirmed kill of an elephant, the VC were using it to haul fuel and explosives up the trail.


----------



## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

My great uncle was a WW2 vet and won both the sliver and bronze star.

He was in the marines and according to my dad they didnt' get the Garands till later and he spent most of the time using an 03 Springfield.

My dad used to deer hunt with him and said that he was shooting at a running deer once and some guys thought he was using a semi auto because he could get so many shots off so quick with a bolt action.

I guess when you life depends on it..l..


----------



## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

Pops2 and the rest of the vets,

_*Thank You for your service!*_


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Pops2 said:


> The M40 is built off the Remington model 40 target rifles not actual 700 actions.


The M40 was a Remington built 40X, but every subsequent revision has been a PWS build - on the 700 action. 

They are essentially the same thing: a 40X is a precision built 700 by Remington, and a M40A_x_ is a precision built 700 by the USMC, but the M40s (A1 and post) are technically 700 actions and are marked as such.


----------

