# Doe just kidded - milk won't come out (not a clogged teat)



## madness (Dec 6, 2006)

One of our 6 year old does kidded about 2 hours ago. All went well, single big doeling. Her udder clearly has milk in it - a lot in fact. But her teats are completely flaccid as if they have no milk in them at all. Nothing else seems wrong with the udder (not hot, or terribly engorged, or lumpy, etc, etc). After warm towels and lots and lots of gentle massage and the baby suckling, a tiny drop of colustrum came out. Nothing more for awhile. Treatment like this continued. And now a tiny drop of blood.

This goat had terrible leaky teats on her first freshening - milk squirted out near where the teat meets the udder. Subsequent freshenings, she has been fine. Last time she did develop a milk bubble right at that connection point that needed to be drained when she was dried up (I know it had a real scientific name, but I can't recall it at the moment. Vet said it was just from the same leaky teat problem - milk producing tissue on or near the surface of the udder).

Hopefully this will resolve with continued warm towels, massage and sucking but we are getting a bit worried. We do have colostrum to feed the kid but are hoping her stimulation will help mama for the time being. I'm at the office and getting updates from the farm.

Any other suggestions?


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

That kid needs colostrum the first 12 hours no matter what. Bottle it colostrum the first day, it's vital for it's good health/survival. It can nurse the rest of the time or after that. The older it is, the less colostrum can be absorbed. By about 24 hrs, colostrum cannot provide passive immunity to the kid. The longer it waits to eat, the lower it's bodys' energy reserves also get, and it will be highly prone to starvation hypothermia, which can happen in even the warmest climates unless that kid is eating regularly. 

The teats being flaccid is interesting. If there is milk there and not just edema/scar tissue, then something is blocking the exit. Right above the teat cistern should be a large mammary cistern. If the teats aren't filling, milk isn't getting there. Does the base of her udder feel full? Edema and inflammation is possible at kidding, usually not profound enough to block teats. Scar tissue from mastitis comes to mind, but both sides is unusual as mastitis is usually confined to one half of the other with most simple infections. Severe ones can spread between halves or go systemic and spread. Has she been 100% otherwise healthy since her last lactation?

Do you regularly milk? That thing that needed to be drained - what did it contain? Pus? Never heard of a dry doe having a problem from a leaky teat besides an infection. IF she really is that leaky, an ascending infection is pretty darn likely, and widespread scar tissue can cause milk flow to be seriously impaired. 

Tested for CAE?

You may need to talk to a good vet who is knowledgeable about dairy and ask if they can possibly clear scar tissue and put in something like a teat dilator or retainer. IF milk can't get moving soon, she's essentially bagged up and will dry off pretty quick.


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## madness (Dec 6, 2006)

mygoat said:


> That kid needs colostrum the first 12 hours no matter what. Bottle it colostrum the first day, it's vital for it's good health/survival. It can nurse the rest of the time or after that. The older it is, the less colostrum can be absorbed. By about 24 hrs, colostrum cannot provide passive immunity to the kid. The longer it waits to eat, the lower it's bodys' energy reserves also get, and it will be highly prone to starvation hypothermia, which can happen in even the warmest climates unless that kid is eating regularly.


Right after I posted, we decided it was best to get colostrum in the baby as it hit the 2 hour mark. The doeling is strong and is readily taking a bottle.



> The teats being flaccid is interesting. If there is milk there and not just edema/scar tissue, then something is blocking the exit. Right above the teat cistern should be a large mammary cistern. If the teats aren't filling, milk isn't getting there. Does the base of her udder feel full?


Her udder shows every sign of being full of milk. Large and somewhat tight but not lumpy, hot or otherwise "weird" feeling. 



> Edema and inflammation is possible at kidding, usually not profound enough to block teats. Scar tissue from mastitis comes to mind, but both sides is unusual as mastitis is usually confined to one half of the other with most simple infections. Severe ones can spread between halves or go systemic and spread. Has she been 100% otherwise healthy since her last lactation?


Scar tissue has been one of our biggest concerns, or at least tissue growing in the wrong place since it's right where the leaky teat problem was. I would venture to say she is our healthiest goat; never mastitis, never a high parasite load, easy kiddings, shiny coat, best tasting milk even! Her only issue has been the leaky teats.



> Do you regularly milk?


Yes - we used to pull kids at birth and milk twice a day but the last 2 years we've milked out once every day or two for the first 2 weeks then separate the kids at night at milk in the AM (and sometimes PM for the big producers). She is 8 years old so has been milked in both systems.



> That thing that needed to be drained - what did it contain? Pus? Never heard of a dry doe having a problem from a leaky teat besides an infection. IF she really is that leaky, an ascending infection is pretty darn likely, and widespread scar tissue can cause milk flow to be seriously impaired.


She only had leaky teats that actually squirted from the wrong spot during her first freshening. Then last year (5th? freshening) as she was drying off, we noticed a small soft lump at the connection of the teat to the udder. It got bigger - maybe the size of a shooter marble - by the time she was dry. The vet said it was likely milk producing tissues on the OUTSIDE of the udder - the same thing that caused the leaky teat in the first place. The body had walled off those tissues over the years and this had become a little blind pocket. It had very fresh seeming milk in it. And never came back after the one draining.



> Tested for CAE?


We haven't tested in a few years but have only purchased tested goats since then. I know that's not 100%...



> You may need to talk to a good vet who is knowledgeable about dairy and ask if they can possibly clear scar tissue and put in something like a teat dilator or retainer. IF milk can't get moving soon, she's essentially bagged up and will dry off pretty quick.


Our vet - who is excellent with meat goats and is decent about dairy and willing to learn more - is out of town for TWO WEEKS. :grump: I swear we may not need him for 6 months at a time but we have had half a dozen issues in the last week that we would have liked him to come out for. But it's looking like tomorrow we need to go to one of his backup vets he recommends...none of which are goat people.

Honestly, if milk doesn't start flowing tonight, I HOPE she dries up quickly. Seems like one of the best outcomes. I'm terrified something worse will happen at this point...

Thank you so much for your reply!


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Hopefully that person will recommend a knowledgeable DAIRY cow vet. Goat-specific knowledge shouldn't be necessary for this surgery which, if can be done, would probably be done with local blocks, if even necessary. A dairy vet has seen a lot of dairy udders and the structure of a goat udder is the same as a cow udder that I've ever seen or heard, they're likely to do the best they can for your doe, IMO. 

The lump, if it showed up during lactation and not at onset, was, IMO, more likely an abscess and could very well have been a mastitis pathogen. Usually the ectopic mammary tissue will come on at the same time the udder bags up pre-kidding. Usually it's a 'dead end' and as such, 'bags up' just as it would if it were an udder and involutes and goes away rather early in lactation. (I believe it's Goat Medicine that has a lot of interesting info about this)

If it were an abscess due to an infection, If being milked or nursed, the milk may have been moving enough to keep it from being clinical mastitis during the lactation. Staph is a common cause of mastitis that often leads to abscess formation. During milking or nursing, often the constant milk flow helps prevent there being a large concentration of bacteria in the udder and helps with clearing the infection. However, if an abscess or a low grade infection remained somewhere and she was dried - she could have had dry period mastitis which can be hard to notice if you're not messing with the udder every day. When she isn't lactating, that udder doesn't have nearly as much blood flow or tissue and she may not become obviously ill especially during the dry period months when, honestly, we aren't paying much attention to them.  (I've had it happen, too!) My poor does are often subject to a grope or two during their dry period checking for texture, lumps or bumps that could be old scar tissue, or new issues. During the dry period is a great time to check up on a known infection, too, because the mammary tissue completely involutes and remodels during that time but scars don't tend to.

Would love to hear what a dairy vet has to say if you end up having one out. Hopefully the milk gets a flowin' soon for you!


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