# Why Grocery Store Shelves Are Empty



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

After being chastised for not including adequate information in the OP by several in the comments section, I decided to flesh out the OP.

The following is a link to a video.

I am incapable of typing 60 WPM with a more than 98% accuracy rate in order to completely transcribe a transcript from audio, nor am I capable of putting up a succinct synopsis that would please even those who would gripe if they were hung with a new rope.

If you are curious, move your cursor to the link below, left click, adjust the volume and watch the video like I did.

If you feel inclined to comment, please feel free to do so in the comments section below.

Thus endeth the lesson.

Regards

Link


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

link didn't work for me.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

The rule in the past was that you need to either explain what the link is about or quote some of it. Don't know if that still stands.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

The only thing I've seen in short supply was Gatorade...


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

they are empty because no body is stocking them! Oh!



the stores here have been out of canned cat food and most litter for a while, months now. 
also, 1/2 and 1/2 and some chips/crackers/breads/ from time to time those shelves are empty
paper goods have been hit or miss for 2 years now

yesterday I noticed lighters and batteries near the registers = all gone.

ironically, they have brand new stock of valentines day candy and decor......


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

painterswife said:


> The rule in the past was that you need to either explain what the link is about or quote some of it. Don't know if that still stands.


It does. 
That's why we now have another poster who now always writes 'synopsis' when he posts things from Yahoo. A few months ago this was brought up....

I read from different sites on the web in the AM. If I wanted to read the many posts from Yahoo, lets say, I'd just go there. 

General chat and the dark room are getting to be like the site Lucianne.com


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

According to the video: Omicrom causing worker shortages coupled with the already thready supply chain issues. People cooking more meals at home (?). Winter weather.

Store shelves here in my neck of southern California are looking like they were during the worst of the lock down shortages. Went to the grocery a few days ago and there were exactly three packages of egg noodles on an otherwise empty pasta shelf. The fresh vegetable area was almost completely bare. Sporadic weirdly specific empty shelves throughout and much reduced choice on aisles that had some things (the chip aisle was a nightmare - no Ruffles! Couldn't find Dr. Pepper in preparation for a visit from a Dr. Pepper fiend).

Target last night looked much the same in the grocery area. Browsed through the pharmacy section while my daughter tried to find a substitute for her very specific fancy shampoo, and the cold/flu shelves were totally empty. The pain relief aisle had some things but not much.

Cue the panic buying.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Mish said:


> According to the video: Omicrom causing worker shortages coupled with the already thready supply chain issues. People cooking more meals at home (?). Winter weather.
> 
> Store shelves here in my neck of southern California are looking like they were during the worst of the lock down shortages. Went to the grocery a few days ago and there were exactly three packages of egg noodles on an otherwise empty pasta shelf. The fresh vegetable area was almost completely bare. Sporadic weirdly specific empty shelves throughout and much reduced choice on aisles that had some things (the chip aisle was a nightmare - no Ruffles! Couldn't find Dr. Pepper in preparation for a visit from a Dr. Pepper fiend).
> 
> ...


The shortages must be regional for some reason. It can't be due to a shortage of products or it would be nationwide. As TripleD noted, Gatorade was the only shortage here too for a couple weeks but it is now back in stock. Walmart stores and other grocers in this whole area are very well stocked.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

poppy said:


> The shortages must be regional for some reason. It can't be due to a shortage of products or it would be nationwide. As TripleD noted, Gatorade was the only shortage here too for a couple weeks but it is now back in stock. Walmart stores and other grocers in this whole area are very well stocked.


From what I'm reading/seeing, it's being blamed mostly on a worker shortage as people are out with Covid, thrown in with the supply chain still being a problem.

It's probably exacerbated in high population areas, I'd assume.

ETA: Things are getting weird all over here. Traffic has been way down, which makes me assume people either aren't going to work or are going back to working from home. Already mentioned the stores being bare. Fast food/restaurants are closing early or just closing temporarily due to lack of employees. I'm sure there are other things I've not noticed, but it's looking like spring of 2020 all over around here.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> The rule in the past was that you need to either explain what the link is about or quote some of it. Don't know if that still stands.


I checked rules and it's not there but it is a helpful courtesy.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

I have not been out for a big shopping run in a while so I don't know how it is here, but the last few times I've gone for fresh foods some of produce at two different stores should have been removed and not for sale. The worst I've ever seen. 
Maybe used for the appearance of stocked shelves...

Those prices though!
People may be emptying the shelves to get a good deal before the next price increase.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

doozie said:


> I have not been out for a big shopping run in a while so I don't know how it is here, but the last few times I've gone for fresh foods some of produce at two different stores should have been removed and not for sale. The worst I've ever seen.
> Maybe used for the appearance of stocked shelves...
> 
> Those prices though!
> People may be emptying the shelves to get a good deal before the next price increase.


I'm glad I started back deer hunting last year...


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## Big_Al (Dec 21, 2011)

TripleD said:


> The only thing I've seen in short supply was Gatorade...


Out here in rural America things are a little different.
In our area, not counting Dollar General, there are only three grocery stores within 30 miles, all owned by the same company and serviced from the same warehouse.
Supplies of most everything are short or non existent.


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## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

I would say that maybe more folks are seeing the writing on the wall, with the direction the current administration is taking this country, and starting to prep/hoard canned good, dry/durable goods, batteries/lighters. It's a matter of buy it now, or not be able to find it, or buy it in the future (look at Venezuela as an example).

These same people have seen the emergency responses from FEMA, or other agencies that leave a bit to be desired in their effectiveness. Some folks perhaps are preparing for those unknown natural disasters that hit every year (now more frequently)


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

doozie said:


> I have not been out for a big shopping run in a while so I don't know how it is here, but the last few times I've gone for fresh foods some of produce at two different stores should have been removed and not for sale. The worst I've ever seen.
> Maybe used for the appearance of stocked shelves...
> 
> Those prices though!
> People may be emptying the shelves to get a good deal before the next price increase.


Produce is always iffy this time of year due to travel time since most of it is imported. Some wholesalers are pickier than others on what they sell to stores. I know Walmart is very strict on what they will accept at their distribution centers. The one near us refuses semi loads of produce I would readily buy. The truckers are stuck with the load and need to go somewhere else to pick up another load, so they give it all to a local food bank and they tell other food banks to get some of it. Walmart pulls a random sample of all produce and if they find anything they don't like, they refuse the whole load. For example, they cut a random sample of apples down the middle and if they find any blemished or starting to turn brown around the core, it is a no go.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

I was in Kroger and Walmart this AM. Both were very low on sandwich meat and other meat items in those cases.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Big_Al said:


> Out here in rural America things are a little different.
> In our area, not counting Dollar General, there are only three grocery stores within 30 miles, all owned by the same company and serviced from the same warehouse.
> Supplies of most everything are short or non existent.


I don't know where you are but the closest town is only six miles. Population 6000. Walmart closed two years ago. I only went there maybe twice per year. Mostly to buy ammo...


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I bought three cases of wine last weekend. Prepping is a lifestyle


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

my son was in wmart this morning before he came here. no shortage of anything he said


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

Mish said:


> According to the video: Omicrom causing worker shortages coupled with the already thready supply chain issues. People cooking more meals at home (?). Winter weather.
> 
> Store shelves here in my neck of southern California are looking like they were during the worst of the lock down shortages. Went to the grocery a few days ago and there were exactly three packages of egg noodles on an otherwise empty pasta shelf. The fresh vegetable area was almost completely bare. Sporadic weirdly specific empty shelves throughout and much reduced choice on aisles that had some things (the chip aisle was a nightmare - no Ruffles! Couldn't find Dr. Pepper in preparation for a visit from a Dr. Pepper fiend).
> 
> ...



Not surprised that the shelves are bare in southern California. When people can come in and steal up to $950 worth of stuff and get away with it this is expected. 

Doesn't seem to be many shortages here.


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## romysbaskets (Aug 29, 2009)

There is a lot of food here! We only run short of specific items but can find them at another store. We have never seen lots of empty shelves! The only shortage here was the initial toilette paper one.. As to food? You can get most of what we bought before but it is higher priced!


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

Walmart has their own trucks and drivers. Everyone else is dependent on trucking companies, who don't have enough drivers. It hasn't gotten bad yet, just inconvenient. Remember, Brandon has three more years to save us. The question is, how much more of being saved can we stand?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

muleskinner2 said:


> Walmart has their own trucks and drivers. Everyone else is dependent on trucking companies, who don't have enough drivers. It hasn't gotten bad yet, just inconvenient. Remember, Brandon has three more years to save us.


I have a contractor whose name is Brandon. He is holding me up big time. 

I'm glad everyone is thinking about my job when they ask him to go.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

Costco is out of water and toilet paper again. but it is because their delivery trucks are bogged down in deep snow over the passes.

There are odd things disappearing from the shelves. A couple of weeks ago, i couldn't get unsalted soda crackers and two days ago ther were no soda crackers of any kind or any brand on the shelves. Graham crackers went up 82% in price, but at least there were plenty of graham crackers. There wasn't any frozen broccoli. There haven't been any canned long green chilies for nearly two years.

Pork is still hit and miss depending upon what cut you are hoping to buy. You can always get pork but only if you don't care what cut it is.

Goods still aren't flowing out of the ports in California because there still aren't trucks to carry containers off of the lot. Gosh, they increases hours and manpower at the ports, but California will still only allow brand new trucks belonging to large companies to move goods in California. If they would let some independent operators in there, the goods would start to flow, freeing up parking space so there was room to unload all the ships which are waiting.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

muleskinner2 said:


> Walmart has their own trucks and drivers. Everyone else is dependent on trucking companies, who don't have enough drivers. It hasn't gotten bad yet, just inconvenient. Remember, Brandon has three more years to save us.


Only partially true Walmart hauls only a small portion of their inbound freight 

And they don't haul any of their grocery that's all contracted.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

I don't do video "news" stories, because I prefer to read them.

That said, looking at the posts, it is a no-brainer.

EXCEPT that the whole Omicron factor is totally blown out of proportion. The bare shelves have been going on here for a while, and I spoke to managers at the local grocery chains. They each told me it was because no one was working to load the trucks. People are refusing to work, because they are govt subsidized to stay home. 

The stores get short loads, 75%, 50%, and the week before Christmas at Richards Bros got only 10%.

Like I said, a no-brainer.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Why grocery store shelves are empty seems to pretty well describe what the link will supposedly be about. And it actually does just that. What is the problem ?


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Wolf mom said:


> It does.
> That's why we now have another poster who now always writes 'synopsis' when he posts things from Yahoo. A few months ago this was brought up....
> 
> I read from different sites on the web in the AM. If I wanted to read the many posts from Yahoo, lets say, I'd just go there.
> ...


Nobody is forcing you to read the posts… The posts are also from many different sources they just happen to be on the Yahoo Homepage.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

No shortages seen while shopping in NWA today.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> Nobody is forcing you to read the posts… The posts are also from many different sources they just happen to be on the Yahoo Homepage.


Proof that they’re from many different sources.
☝SYNOPSIS ☝


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

painterswife said:


> The rule in the past was that you need to either explain what the link is about or quote some of it. Don't know if that still stands.


One cannot quote a video.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

wdcutrsdaughter said:


> link didn't work for me.


Try this.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddrink/other/grocery-stores-are-struggling-to-stock-their-shelves-here-s-why/vi-AASIQFS?ocid=windirect


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Tom Horn said:


> One cannot quote a video.


You’re wasting your breath, no matter what you do some will still find fault with it.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> You’re wasting your breath, no matter what you do some will still find fault with it.


Please check out the modified OP.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I had to stop at Meijer twice to get the bread hubby likes. Yesterday I noticed there was very little juice and cheese. Today there were only the big packages of cold cuts and 2 little packs of ham. Fresh produce was well-stocked and everything looked good, not their usual moldy lemons and shriveled mandarins. A few days ago at Kroger the pasta shelves were almost empty except for the Barilla brand. Walmart had just about everything but in very limited quantities.

All 3 stores are between our house and where daughter works. I don't spend all day running from store to store just to check out the merchandise.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

oregon woodsmok said:


> . There wasn't any frozen broccoli.


Every cloud has a silver lining.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

doc- said:


> Every cloud has a silver lining.


Ummm, broccoli with cheese sauce.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Tom Horn said:


> Ummm, broccoli with cheese sauce.


And chopped turkey! That's the only way my son will eat broccoli.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Egg nog. They ran out of freaking egg nog. At Christmas. Sigh.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Egg nog. They ran out of freaking egg nog. At Christmas. Sigh.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

coolrunnin said:


> Only partially true Walmart hauls only a small portion of their inbound freight
> 
> And they don't haul any of their grocery that's all contracted.


I have a buddy that has his own truck, he works for a company and all he does is haul Tyson products from Tyson plants to Walmart. 
Just drops and picks up trailers owned by Tyson.
Plus the occasional load of by product to dog food plants.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

oregon woodsmok said:


> California will still only allow brand new trucks belonging to large companies to move goods in California. If they would let some independent operators in there, the goods would start to flow, freeing up parking space so there was room to unload all the ships which are waiting


I have read this before, but not from any truly reputable source (if such a thing exists).

Anyone got a source for this (possibly incorrect rumor)?


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

boatswain2PA said:


> I have read this before, but not from any truly reputable source (if such a thing exists).
> 
> Anyone got a source for this (possibly incorrect rumor)?


I'll look for a source for you...but basically California has some crazy, BS emissions standards that typically weren't on trucks from before then. And the parts to make older trucks compliant are EXPENSIVE.
Gotta keep that air clean, Doncha know. . . .


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

boatswain2PA said:


> I have read this before, but not from any truly reputable source (if such a thing exists).
> 
> Anyone got a source for this (possibly incorrect rumor)?


Read up on CARB environmental Regs. They do not have to be brand new but cannot be very old. I forget the year when most no longer are allowed into california.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

boatswain2PA said:


> I have read this before, but not from any truly reputable source (if such a thing exists).
> 
> Anyone got a source for this (possibly incorrect rumor)?


Here's what I found, please note the date is 2019 on this article. It says trucks older than 6 years have to pass their smog checks (passenger vehicles have to get inspected every 2 years and pass smog or the commies won't let you register it). So on trucks older than 6 years (2013 by this article) you have to somehow make the truck compliant with draconian smog standards, just like cars. And trust me, getting a vehicle to pass smog if it fails a smog check is a MAJOR and expensive headache. OMG








California passes law requiring 'smog checks' for semis


California lawmakers have passed a 'smog check' bill that will crack down on diesel trucks that operate within the state.




cdllife.com


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I do not belive this.

"To attribute the problems of today to this mandate is not accurate," Miguel Jaller Martelo, co-director of the Sustainable Freight Research Program at the University of California-Davis, said in an email. "I would concentrate more on low wages, and new shipping trends that resulted from shifts in demand and consumption patterns during COVID." 








Fact check: California trucking regulations aren't to blame for cargo backlog


The regulations cited in a popular post online are real. But experts say they aren't contributing to supply chain delays in California.



www.usatoday.com


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

The last localish investigative report I heard (on the radio, KFI - LA station) - and it was awhile ago - was that it was a union thing. Apparently all of the union workers had agreed to work overtime to get the cargo unloaded/sorted except for the warehouse workers. So they were bottlenecking because there was no place for the people working the overtime to put the sorted cargo.

Which would also explain the reports of trucks just idling in line that keep coming out.

Duck and Google suck anymore so I can't find that particular little news blurb, if it was ever a written story. It was the station's newsman who was doing the investigating.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

I think the ports need to be moved, stop using cali's ports and I think we could see some results. I know this has been discussed before and it would be an inconvenience but sometimes getting better results involves inconveniences


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

RJ2019 said:


> I think the ports need to be moved, stop using cali's ports and I think we could see some results. I know this has been discussed before and it would be an inconvenience but sometimes getting better results involves inconveniences



We should just dig a moat around California and quit even considering it as having any real positive benefit to the nation.

California, good in, dog crap out.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Tom Horn said:


> We should just dig a moat around California and quit even considering it as having any real positive benefit to the nation.
> 
> California, good in, dog crap out.


There is enough water in Cali for a moat??? Not to mention moving all those mountains be kinda tricky.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

As to empty shelves.... havent seen that, just high prices. Eggs for example have really zoomed. If anybody worried about shortages, maybe you should plant a bigger garden next spring. You own land, not such a big deal. However you rent during housing shortage and you dont have space for garden nor money to buy food after landlord gets his cut.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

HermitJohn said:


> There is enough water in Cali for a moat??? Not to mention moving all those mountains be kinda tricky.


Alright... Just nuke the San Andreas Fault and it would slide right out into the Pacific.

Present company excluded.

It could kinda be like Abraham looking for 50 righteous men in Sodom and Gomorrah.


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## Vjk (Apr 28, 2020)

And trucks from Mexico are exempt.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

Vjk said:


> And trucks from Mexico are exempt.


I didn't know that


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

I've been saying we should give California back to Mexico for a long time now. At least everything south of about the Sacramento area.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Tom Horn said:


> Alright... Just nuke the San Andreas Fault and it would slide right out into the Pacific.
> 
> Present company excluded.
> 
> It could kinda be like Abraham looking for 50 righteous men in Sodom and Gomorrah.


Perhaps there are only 5?


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Danaus29 said:


> Perhaps there are only 5?



Well, if you will recall, Abraham bargained with the Lord regarding Sodom and Gomorrah and got the total reduced from fifty down to to five and was still not successful.

So... Okay, we can go with five.

But we are talking about California, so, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Here's an interesting take on the situation.

Soylent Green, anyone?


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## rbelfield (Mar 30, 2015)

we havent noticed too many shortages here. but the prices!! holy crap! yesterday the things i noticed were a small bag of mandarin oranges..didnt notice the weight, 9.99!! 30 pack of miller lite 29.99! store brand gallon of 2% milk, 4.59..those are ridiculous prices for this area.


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## alida (Feb 8, 2015)

I was at my grocery store yesterday and really noticed some gaps. Almost all frozen and canned fish products were gone, and there were signs up saying it was the result of shipping delays. I'd noticed less canned fish for awhile, now there's almost none. Fresh beef selections were sparse and so were pork. Lots of chicken. Fresh produce bins were full as usual and the quality was good. Lots of dairy - milk, yogurts cheeses. Loots of bread options. Cooking oil shelves were less than 1/3 full and the prices have jumped, nearly 30% from what I bought nearly a year ago. There were other spots that seemed full until you saw that all the packages were pulled to the very front of the shelves and there was little behind them.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

I saw my first $18 package of bacon at Walmart today. Most were $12 (and of course they were the sneaky 12 oz packages instead of a pound). Only one brand was under $8/package.

Phew. Glad I have a bunch in the freezer, but it's going to stink if it's still that price come tomato season.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Tom Horn said:


> Well, if you will recall, Abraham bargained with the Lord regarding Sodom and Gomorrah and got the total reduced from fifty down to to five and was still not successful.
> 
> So... Okay, we can go with five.
> 
> But we are talking about California, so, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.


I am well aware of the discourse between God and Abram. There were not even 5, Lot was the only man that was delivered from the destruction. Not even Lot's wife made it to safety.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

There were lots of empty spaces at Sam's and Walmart today. I was still able to get everything on my list except Sargento aged Swiss sliced cheese. I didn't price check bacon.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Danaus29 said:


> I am well aware of the discourse between God and Abram. There were not even 5, Lot was the only man that was delivered from the destruction. Not even Lot's wife made it to safety.



Not to nitpick, however, at the time of Sodom and Gomorrah Abram had become Abraham. (P.S. I had to look it up)

As for what happened to Lot's wife.... Try to get a woman to listen to simple instructions.


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## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Danaus29 said:


> There were lots of empty spaces at Sam's and Walmart today. I was still able to get everything on my list except Sargento aged Swiss sliced cheese. I didn't price check bacon.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Tom Horn said:


> Not to nitpick, however, at the time of Sodom and Gomorrah Abram had become Abraham. (P.S. I had to look it up)
> 
> As for what happened to Lot's wife.... Try to get a woman to listen to simple instructions.


I wasn't real sure which name he was using at the time and didn't look it up.


----------



## Tom Horn (Feb 10, 2021)

Danaus29 said:


> I wasn't real sure which name he was using at the time and didn't look it up.



See there... They were probably using aliases way back in pre-history.


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> As to empty shelves.... havent seen that, just high prices. Eggs for example have really zoomed. If anybody worried about shortages, maybe you should plant a bigger garden next spring. You own land, not such a big deal. However you rent during housing shortage and you dont have space for garden nor money to buy food after landlord gets his cut.


I've told every tenant to till up the yard and plant them a garden for 20 years. Only two have done it... As far as the landlord thing l bought those houses !!


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

TripleD said:


> I've told every tenant to till up the yard and plant them a garden for 20 years. Only two have done it... As far as the landlord thing l bought those houses !!


Getting chickens and tearing out the front yard for a garden were discussed at length before I moved in. Landlord (family member) wants to put in raised beds eventually....I am dead set against that pretty citiot crap, the ground here is good and I don't want anyone to mess it up!


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

People use raised beds for lots of different reasons. It's not a cidiot invention.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

RJ2019 said:


> Getting chickens and tearing out the front yard for a garden were discussed at length before I moved in. Landlord (family member) wants to put in raised beds eventually....I am dead set against that pretty citiot crap, the ground here is good and I don't want anyone to mess it up!


The ground may be good, but your back, knees and hips won't always be.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

TripleD said:


> I've told every tenant to till up the yard and plant them a garden for 20 years. Only two have done it... As far as the landlord thing l bought those houses !!


Good for you but society doesnt work when there is huge disconnect between cost of housing and wages. You want to move decimal point on rent you charge, then for society to work, decimal point on wages needs to be moved. Pretending everybody is a billionaire cause you want to make higher profit doesnt work unless supply housing so low there arent alternatives. And seems thats exactly what has happened. No competition on price forced by empty rental units. The big increase in homelessness isnt cause they are all crazy lazy drug addicts, its cause their paycheck doesnt cover prevailing rent being charged especially with enough left over for other living expenses. And yea rural areas without serious jobs, probably still reasonable rents, its where retired people living on SS go to die. Though usually medical care is long drive away. But go to where the rich people want to bid up every house and rental unit and society doesnt work cause there is no affordable housing. Oh and expecting 20 people to share an efficiency apt probably breaks rental agreement by whoever signed the lease, and local building/health codes. So promoting that as a solution is promoting LAWLESSNESS and CRIME.

I remember when you could rent an old farmhouse for $15 a month if you were desperate. Or cheap apartment like $40. So when I see rents starting at $1500 a month, wow. Somebody got might greedy. Cause wages sure havent multiplied 40 times.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HermitJohn said:


> So when I see rents starting at $1500 a month, wow. Somebody got might greedy.


They sure did, starting with the government and in no uncertain order, the property tax collector, includes the city, the county and the state; the federal government deserves separate recognition. Then lets see, the insurance agent, the water company, the electric company, the gas company, the trash collector, the contractor who charges me to replace the carpet, drywall, curtains, appliances, toilet and cabinets that were destroyed by the previous tenant. The court charges in order to evict the previous tenant.
Should I continue or is that $1500 all used up yet?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

alida said:


> Fresh beef selections were sparse


I am happy about that. I have never had it so good selling beef.


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> Good for you but society doesnt work when there is huge disconnect between cost of housing and wages. You want to move decimal point on rent you charge, then for society to work, decimal point on wages needs to be moved. Pretending everybody is a billionaire cause you want to make higher profit doesnt work unless supply housing so low there arent alternatives. And seems thats exactly what has happened. No competition on price forced by empty rental units. The big increase in homelessness isnt cause they are all crazy lazy drug addicts, its cause their paycheck doesnt cover prevailing rent being charged especially with enough left over for other living expenses. And yea rural areas without serious jobs, probably still reasonable rents, its where retired people living on SS go to die. Though usually medical care is long drive away. But go to where the rich people want to bid up every house and rental unit and society doesnt work cause there is no affordable housing. Oh and expecting 20 people to share an efficiency apt probably breaks rental agreement by whoever signed the lease, and local building/health codes. So promoting that as a solution is promoting LAWLESSNESS and CRIME.
> 
> I remember when you could rent an old farmhouse for $15 a month if you were desperate. Or cheap apartment like $40. So when I see rents starting at $1500 a month, wow. Somebody got might greedy. Cause wages sure havent multiplied 40 times.


I have to respond. I have a one dollar bill taped to the inside of my kitchen cabinet dated 2003 in my hand writing. I almost went broke. There's nothing anyone can tell me about dealing with tenants. I'm 57 and been in this part or full time since I was 12. Do you need some cheese with that "wine" ??? I moved four king size beds in a rental last week because they were using space heaters instead of filling up the propane tank. My meter has been less than full on dealing with idiots...


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> They sure did, starting with the government and in no uncertain order, the property tax collector, includes the city, the county and the state; the federal government deserves separate recognition. Then lets see, the insurance agent, the water company, the electric company, the gas company, the trash collector, the contractor who charges me to replace the carpet, drywall, curtains, appliances, toilet and cabinets that were destroyed by the previous tenant. The court charges in order to evict the previous tenant.
> Should I continue or is that $1500 all used up yet?


Everyone loves to talk about greedy landlords huh?

They never want to talk about the why.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HermitJohn said:


> Good for you but society doesnt work when there is huge disconnect between cost of housing and wages. You want to move decimal point on rent you charge, then for society to work, decimal point on wages needs to be moved. Pretending everybody is a billionaire cause you want to make higher profit doesnt work unless supply housing so low there arent alternatives. And seems thats exactly what has happened. No competition on price forced by empty rental units. The big increase in homelessness isnt cause they are all crazy lazy drug addicts, its cause their paycheck doesnt cover prevailing rent being charged especially with enough left over for other living expenses. And yea rural areas without serious jobs, probably still reasonable rents, its where retired people living on SS go to die. Though usually medical care is long drive away. But go to where the rich people want to bid up every house and rental unit and society doesnt work cause there is no affordable housing. Oh and expecting 20 people to share an efficiency apt probably breaks rental agreement by whoever signed the lease, and local building/health codes. So promoting that as a solution is promoting LAWLESSNESS and CRIME.
> 
> I remember when you could rent an old farmhouse for $15 a month if you were desperate. Or cheap apartment like $40.  So when I see rents starting at $1500 a month, wow. Somebody got might greedy. Cause wages sure havent multiplied 40 times.


Landlords have never determined fair market value. The renters have always done that. Your blaming the wrong people.


----------



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

GTX63 said:


> They sure did, starting with the government and in no uncertain order, the property tax collector, includes the city, the county and the state; the federal government deserves separate recognition. Then lets see, the insurance agent, the water company, the electric company, the gas company, the trash collector, the contractor who charges me to replace the carpet, drywall, curtains, appliances, toilet and cabinets that were destroyed by the previous tenant. The court charges in order to evict the previous tenant.
> Should I continue or is that $1500 all used up yet?


Then why are so many individuals and corporations wanting to get into residential landlord biz? Could it be cause they see opportunity to squeeze the poor? Cause banks and bonds arent paying reasonable interest? Hey in current market with short supply of low end housing, they will make money. The supply ever goes up again or the population comes down, they are truly screwed, they overpaid for the rentals and then cant find suckers to pay what is needed to cover their costs. Then they write it off on taxes and let Uncle Sam take the hit. Meaning us the taxpayers.

My notion be best if so called businessmen couldnt just write off debt, it sticks with them until they either pay or they die. That would keep out the speculator types. Scumbag carpetbaggers of the capitalist world.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HermitJohn said:


> Then why are so many individuals and corporations wanting to get into residential landlord biz? Could it be cause they see opportunity to squeeze the poor? Cause banks and bonds arent paying reasonable interest? Hey in current market with short supply of low end housing, they will make money. The supply ever goes up again or the population comes down, they are truly screwed, they overpaid for the rentals and then cant find suckers to pay what is needed to cover their costs. Then they write it off on taxes and let Uncle Sam take the hit. Meaning us the taxpayers.
> 
> My notion be best if so called businessmen couldnt just write off debt, it sticks with them until they either pay or they die. That would keep out the speculator types. Scumbag carpetbaggers of the capitalist world.


They are buying it up because of inflation and they have cash investors on the books. Better to lose a little than to have to pay a billion dollars for a wheel barrow.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

mreynolds said:


> Everyone loves to talk about greedy landlords huh?
> 
> They never want to talk about the why.


Hermit struggles with words like "profit" and "markup".
Now Hermy, what is the proper amount a landlord should net after all expenses?
Should his amount be based on what the market is, what he paid for it, or what the tenant can afford?


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> Landlords have never determined fair market value. The renters have always done that. Your blaming the wrong people.


Its more complicated than that. HOusing isnt getting built, so existing housing is bid up by those looking for easy profit. Banks are paying diddly squat on savings so yea I heard from people needing income stream to buy rentals as a reliable workaround. They think cause they paid too much for the property, they will be guaranteed suckers to pay the rent. Guess they were born yesterday and missed 2008-2009. What goes up can come down.

And its simple, dont want to deal with tenants and toilets, dont become a landlord. Gee that was simple wasnt it? You can either speculate on stock market or get 0.00015% interest from the bank.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HermitJohn said:


> Then why are so many individuals and corporations wanting to get into residential landlord biz? Could it be cause they see opportunity to squeeze the poor?


So Bob the floor wax salesman and Hazel the Avon Lady wants to get into real estate to hurt other people?
Squeeze the poor is tops on their list over say, retirement income, college fund, or just trying to make their own bills?


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> They are buying it up because of inflation and they have cash investors on the books. Better to lose a little than to have to pay a billion dollars for a wheel barrow.


Better pay cash then, taking out a mortgage to buy way overpriced rentals seems might more risky than worrying about a billion dollar wheelbarrow sometime in future.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

GTX63 said:


> So Bob the floor wax salesman and Sale the Avon Lady wants to get into real estate to hurt other people?
> Squeeze the poor is tops on their list over say, retirement income, college fund, or just trying to make their own bills?


No like most capitalists, they are looking for way to make money off the backs of others. They are looking for money, not life necessities. Notice they are buying rentals not acre of land to raise a garden for their own needs.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HermitJohn said:


> Better pay cash then, taking out a mortgage to buy way overpriced rentals seems might more risky than worrying about a billion dollar wheelbarrow sometime in future.


They are using cash. But as down payments. The losses will be less that way.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

mreynolds said:


> They are using cash. But as down payments. The losses will be less that way.



Meaning when they write off losses the rest of us get to pay for it via tax system? Sweet, such a nice fair system.


----------



## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

alida said:


> ......... Almost all frozen and canned fish products were gone, .......... Lots of dairy - milk, yogurts cheeses. Loots of bread options. .........


Fish is imported. There are no longer any fish canneries in the continental US. Bread and dairy is produced locally, so less of a shipping problem.

The big shipping bottleneck is with imported goods, which happens to be a lot of our food items.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HermitJohn said:


> Its more complicated than that. HOusing isnt getting built, so existing housing is bid up by those looking for easy profit. Banks are paying diddly squat on savings so yea I heard from people needing income stream to buy rentals as a reliable workaround. They think cause they paid too much for the property, they will be guaranteed suckers to pay the rent. Guess they were born yesterday and missed 2008-2009. What goes up can come down.
> 
> And its simple, dont want to deal with tenants and toilets, dont become a landlord. Gee that was simple wasnt it? You can either speculate on stock market or get 0.00015% interest from the bank.



It really is that simple. Most foreclosures are from landlords because they thought the only expense was the note, tax and insurance. If anyone buys a house and jacks the rent up, no one will be able to rent it. 

City and county governments have done more to do away with low income housing than anyone. Why would they do this? Because they get more tax money on higher priced real estate. If a renter can't afford a place, that should be the first place you should look at.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HermitJohn said:


> Meaning when they write off losses the rest of us get to pay for it via tax system? Sweet, such a nice fair system.


That's perfectly legal and has been for 60 plus years. 

Why are you getting on my case? I didn't make the law?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

When a communist and a capitalist argue there can be no winner. The rules are too different


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> When a communist and a capitalist argue there can be no winner. The rules are too different


So true.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> Its more complicated than that. HOusing isnt getting built, so existing housing is bid up by those looking for easy profit. Banks are paying diddly squat on savings so yea I heard from people needing income stream to buy rentals as a reliable workaround. They think cause they paid too much for the property, they will be guaranteed suckers to pay the rent. Guess they were born yesterday and missed 2008-2009. What goes up can come down.
> 
> And its simple, dont want to deal with tenants and toilets, dont become a landlord. Gee that was simple wasnt it? You can either speculate on stock market or get 0.00015% interest from the bank.


I didn't miss anything. We picked up a couple of dozen. I'm just holding and watching. Too much to enlighten you about rental business... Want to come clean out some sewer lines??? PM me ☺


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

(Bloomberg) -- An unprecedented real-estate frenzy has left Canada with the fewest houses for sale in at least a quarter century. The country had about 86,000 houses left for sale at the end of December on a seasonally-adjusted basis, according to data from the Canadian Real Estate Association. That’s all that was left after buyers purchased a record 667,000 homes over the course of 2021, about 2

Read more at: Buying Frenzy Leaves Canada With Fewest Homes for Sale on Record
Copyright © BloombergQuint


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HermitJohn said:


> No like most capitalists, they are looking for way to make money off the backs of others.


Ahhh. Thank you for your explanation. I understand now.


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

HermitJohn said:


> ..........I remember when you could rent an old farmhouse for $15 a month if you were desperate. Or cheap apartment like $40. .........



Gosh, you are giving away your age. The property taxes on that farm are now a lot more than $15 a month and the insurance on that farm is also more than $15 a month and the tenant in that farm will now sue the landlord if the roof leaks, and it cost a couple thousand dollars to have a new roof put on that farmhouse.

I fondly remember when watermelon cost 3 cents a pound any day all summer long and I can remember when gas was 25 cents a gallon. A glass bottle of coke from the vending machine cost a nickle. Our money has lost a whole bunch of its purchasing piwer. Prices are no longer what they were in 1955 because the dollar isn't what it used to be.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

TripleD said:


> I didn't miss anything. We picked up a couple of dozen. I'm just holding and watching. Too much to enlighten you about rental business... Want to come clean out some sewer lines??? PM me ☺


I have to guess he doesn't need the money. Capitalism must be working for him?!?! I thought he would have PM'd me...


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

People have to live somewhere. Some people should never own a home because they don't want to maintain their property. Others just do not want the responsibility of doing the maintenance or needed repairs.

Couple thousand $$ for a new roof? We paid over $6000 for our roof only a few years ago. House is only 24x42' with a standard 2 sided roof. Only one section of sheathing needed to be replaced. I'm sure it would be a lot more expensive to replace the shingles and underlayment now.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HermitJohn said:


> Meaning when they write off losses the rest of us get to pay for it via tax system? Sweet, such a nice fair system.


----------



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

oregon woodsmok said:


> Gosh, you are giving away your age. The property taxes on that farm are now a lot more than $15 a month and the insurance on that farm is also more than $15 a month and the tenant in that farm will now sue the landlord if the roof leaks, and it cost a couple thousand dollars to have a new roof put on that farmhouse.
> 
> I fondly remember when watermelon cost 3 cents a pound any day all summer long and I can remember when gas was 25 cents a gallon. A glass bottle of coke from the vending machine cost a nickle. Our money has lost a whole bunch of its purchasing piwer. Prices are no longer what they were in 1955 because the dollar isn't what it used to be.


They werent trying to pay for property taxes, the farm houses at this point were vacant from consolidation of farms. They were just making bit more cash out of what was still a livable house. When tax people got on them assigning crazy value, they just bulldozed them. They were never serious rental properties.

What happened back then has little to do with today. Except low end rentals have gone way of the dodo. And they arent getting replaced. Quite a lot of high end stuff built for rich people using it as some business tax write off and most likely remain vacant. This makes no logical sense in well running of a society. Capitalist, communist or anything else. Humans require shelter anywhere except some exceptional tropical areas. And there not fun to get rained on.

Thing is you want teachers and others not being paid a six figure income, you need housing that relates to that level of pay. Or you need to pay more. See if you say those jobs arent worth any more than current pay, then without allowing housing for that pay grade, you are saying you are willing to do without those jobs being done. Greed always comes back to bite you in the butt. Its great if you can climb on your neighbors corpse to reach next rung in ladder, but as wealth concentrates, so does your opportunities and available services.


----------



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

GTX63 said:


> View attachment 104680


So Capitalists believe in taxpayer subsidies? Wow, guess they have redefined capitalist. I thought they believed in unbridled law of jungle, dog eat dog, every man is an island, and didnt rely on the kindness of strangers to pay their bills....


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

That may be why you don't understand capitalism and prefer equal misery amongst all.


----------



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Danaus29 said:


> People have to live somewhere. Some people should never own a home because they don't want to maintain their property. Others just do not want the responsibility of doing the maintenance or needed repairs.
> 
> Couple thousand $$ for a new roof? We paid over $6000 for our roof only a few years ago. House is only 24x42' with a standard 2 sided roof. Only one section of sheathing needed to be replaced. I'm sure it would be a lot more expensive to replace the shingles and underlayment now.


Maintain it to whose standards? The real problem is people seeing housing as a money making asset instead of what it is, SHELTER FROM THE ELEMENTS. Sane people make timely repairs, thosse that dont, suffer, simple as that.

But we are in the end game of capitalism with concentration of wealth and ever more monopolies and oligopolies, big disconnect between pay and cost to live, it will fail just like Soviet socialism. Greed, corruption, and special privileges for an aristocratic wealthy elite spells decline of any system. And we have that in spades anymore. The goal of capitalism is the concentration of wealth. Anybody familiar with the Monopoly board game is aware you win by bankrupting all other players through ever higher rents and concentration of ownership. Capitalists are not concerned with a well run society, only on dying with most toys and power over others. When it becomes cheaper to spend a few turns in jail than to land on some rental with multiple hotels, well you get the idea. That $15 for winning second place in beauty contest no longer matters.


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> So Capitalists believe in taxpayer subsidies? Wow, guess they have redefined capitalist. I thought they believed in unbridled law of jungle, dog eat dog, every man is an island, and didnt rely on the kindness of strangers to pay their bills....





HermitJohn said:


> So Capitalists believe in taxpayer subsidies? Wow, guess they have redefined capitalist. I thought they believed in unbridled law of jungle, dog eat dog, every man is an island, and didnt rely on the kindness of strangers to pay their bills....


Feel free to pm me. I will give you my number. I have very few fears in this world. I can put you up in the bunkhouse and we can go save me some money on service calls???


----------



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

GTX63 said:


> That may be why you don't understand capitalism and prefer equal misery amongst all.



So you prefer some get wealthy and the rest are miserable. Hey sounds like nice system. Just like Mexico, 5% own everything, everybody else struggles. Yep tell me again how that benefits anybody but those 5%???

oh I get that people want to define things that puts them and their pet system in best light. But if you are runninig a government seriously, its not about making laws so some individuals getting rich, its about keeping things runniing smoothly. We have already undone much of protections and anti-monopoly laws put in place post 1929, thinking we are ever so much smarter now. Apparently everybody had blinders on 2008-2010. So still going downhill. Want to guarantee an actual revival of real socialism (not Republican imaginary socialism), thats the way to accomplish it, just like the first half of 20th century was a reaction to the late 19th century Gilded Age. We are in the second Gilded Age. And the foolish roaring 20s, part deux when people deluded themselves into thinking massive debt was answer to everything and everybody could get rich buying on margin and speculating.


----------



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

TripleD said:


> Feel free to pm me. I will give you my number. I have very few fears in this world. I can put you up in the bunkhouse and we can go save me some money on service calls???


Not looking for a rental or a job at this point in my life, I own place outright. I am looking after my own needs not trying to screw over other people trying to get ever wealthier. Alas we are moving into a time where people see land and housing as money making asset and bidding it sky high so those actually needing it to live cant afford it. Hmm, just like stocks get bid up, I can only say jumping on the bandwagon at top of hill probably a poor strategy.


----------



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

GTX63 said:


> Ahhh. Thank you for your explanation. I understand now.


So you think capitalists do all their own labor? Sounds like you read too much Ayn Rand. Are you sure you know what capitalism is? Far as I know its using your capital to hire others as cheaply as possible to do labor, you skimming off the cream from product or service generated. Trouble is those workers need housing and food and transportation. When Mr. Capitalist gets so greedy as to not allow for that, he has labor problems. And demand for govt intervention.


----------



## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Oh I forget, we no longer mining, manufacturing, or agriculture as main part of our economy. Now its all financing and speculation, money games, squeeze more rent out of the poor or sell Chinese crap on easy payment plan.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HermitJohn said:


> They werent trying to pay for property taxes, the farm houses at this point were vacant from consolidation of farms. They were just making bit more cash out of what was still a livable house. When tax people got on them assigning crazy value, they just bulldozed them. They were never serious rental properties.
> 
> What happened back then has little to do with today. Except low end rentals have gone way of the dodo. And they arent getting replaced. Quite a lot of high end stuff built for rich people using it as some business tax write off and most likely remain vacant. This makes no logical sense in well running of a society. Capitalist, communist or anything else. Humans require shelter anywhere except some exceptional tropical areas. And there not fun to get rained on.
> 
> Thing is you want teachers and others not being paid a six figure income, you need housing that relates to that level of pay. Or you need to pay more. See if you say those jobs arent worth any more than current pay, then without allowing housing for that pay grade, you are saying you are willing to do without those jobs being done. Greed always comes back to bite you in the butt. Its great if you can climb on your neighbors corpse to reach next rung in ladder, but as wealth concentrates, so does your opportunities and available services.


One again, 99 percent of not having affordable homes is due to governments. Local, state and federal. 

Your are blaming the wrong capitalist.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

HermitJohn said:


> Maintain it to whose standards? The real problem is people seeing housing as a money making asset instead of what it is, SHELTER FROM THE ELEMENTS. Sane people make timely repairs, thosse that dont, suffer, simple as that.
> 
> But we are in the end game of capitalism with concentration of wealth and ever more monopolies and oligopolies, big disconnect between pay and cost to live, it will fail just like Soviet socialism. Greed, corruption, and special privileges for an aristocratic wealthy elite spells decline of any system. And we have that in spades anymore. The goal of capitalism is the concentration of wealth. Anybody familiar with the Monopoly board game is aware you win by bankrupting all other players through ever higher rents and concentration of ownership. Capitalists are not concerned with a well run society, only on dying with most toys and power over others. When it becomes cheaper to spend a few turns in jail than to land on some rental with multiple hotels, well you get the idea. That $15 for winning second place in beauty contest no longer matters.


Houses are not needed for shelter, although they can do a nice job of it. Houses are all about investment. Period. 

If you wish for the poor people to have more money then do not spend one more cent at a corporate owned business. Not one penny. 

Not sure what your eating or drinking or otherwise taking, but you might check about the side effects that seem to be going on.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

HermitJohn said:


> Oh I forget, we no longer mining, manufacturing, or agriculture as main part of our economy. Now its all financing and speculation, money games, squeeze more rent out of the poor or sell Chinese crap on easy payment plan.


Mining, manufacturing, agriculture are all about financing and / or speculation. Always has been. The chinese crap is just what’s currently available.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HermitJohn said:


> Not looking for a rental or a job at this point in my life, I own place outright. I am looking after my own needs not trying to screw over other people trying to get ever wealthier. Alas we are moving into a time where people see land and housing as money making asset and bidding it sky high so those actually needing it to live cant afford it. Hmm, just like stocks get bid up, I can only say jumping on the bandwagon at top of hill probably a poor strategy.


I'm so sorry you have been screwed over your whole life. Is there anything I can do to help?


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HermitJohn said:


> Now its all financing and speculation, money games, squeeze more rent out of the poor or sell Chinese crap on easy payment plan.


Can you show me a photo, any photo, of a communist citizen smiling?
The ones where they are under threat of harm to them or their families do not count.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Just to get back to the store shelves. I think the empty shelves are just a sign and a result of the incredibly inept practices of this administration in handling this covid mess. Make so many mistakes and its hard to hide the results.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Redlands Okie said:


> Just to get back to the store shelves. I think the empty shelves are just a sign and a result of the incredibly inept practices of this administration in handling this covid mess. Make so many mistakes and its hard to hide the results.


That is exactly what it is. If this were 13 months ago we know who's fault it would have been.

Now, it's just stuff happens.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> That is exactly what it is. If this were 13 months ago we know who's fault it would have been.
> 
> Now, it's just stuff happens.


And those damn capitalist.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

HermitJohn said:


> Maintain it to whose standards? The real problem is people seeing housing as a money making asset instead of what it is, SHELTER FROM THE ELEMENTS. Sane people make timely repairs, thosse that dont, suffer, simple as that.


Standards are relative to the person's situation. 

Why would you buy a house and let it get run down and fall in on you? Why would you buy a house with functional water and electric systems then not maintain them? Some people do that. Hence my opinion that some people should not own a home. Sane people can be incompetent.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> I'm so sorry you have been screwed over your whole life. Is there anything I can do to help?


I asked him if he wanted to talk. Just a PM and I will give him my number. I enjoy other perspectives... I will do that for anyone else on here ☺...


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

Danaus29 said:


> People use raised beds for lots of different reasons. It's not a cidiot invention.


I think it is when 1) there is no need because the existing soil is good and the gardener is able-bodied and 2) because they want to do it just because it's "pretty". In my case raised beds would severely limit the square footage available to me for gardening

But yes, in many cases raised beds are the way to go. It sometimes irks me though, when folks don't even give their existing soil a try.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HermitJohn said:


> So you think capitalists do all their own labor? Sounds like you read too much Ayn Rand. Are you sure you know what capitalism is? Far as I know its using your capital to hire others as cheaply as possible to do labor, you skimming off the cream from product or service generated. Trouble is those workers need housing and food and transportation. When Mr. Capitalist gets so greedy as to not allow for that, he has labor problems. And demand for govt intervention.


Wanna know which country is the most charitable ever in the history of the earth?
Every day, every year they just smoke everyone else in their giving...to everyone else.
You already know the answer and the main reason is wait....capitalism.
And that is after all the government teets made available for sucking freebies.
I'm still waiting for the photo of a smiling communist without a Russian made AK poking them in the ribs.
How much do those pleasant tyrannically run countries donate to others? How much do their citizens give, "give" being the operative word.

Now, I am typing this response on a computer made from the sweat and blisters of my employees. I did nothing for it of course. 
I am about to pour another cup of coffee I stole from their labor and command the house manager to run out to the workers shanty and roust them from their cots to prepare for sunrise and another day of engorging my bank account.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

RJ2019 said:


> I think it is when 1) there is no need because the existing soil is good and the gardener is able-bodied and 2) because they want to do it just because it's "pretty". In my case raised beds would severely limit the square footage available to me for gardening
> 
> But yes, in many cases raised beds are the way to go. It sometimes irks me though, when folks don't even give their existing soil a try.


I have raised beds and I garden in the soil. What I use depends on where it is located. None of my soil is really "good" but I keep working on it.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

RJ2019 said:


> I think it is when 1) there is no need because the existing soil is good and the gardener is able-bodied and 2) because they want to do it just because it's "pretty". In my case raised beds would severely limit the square footage available to me for gardening
> 
> But yes, in many cases raised beds are the way to go. It sometimes irks me though, when folks don't even give their existing soil a try.





Danaus29 said:


> I have raised beds and I garden in the soil. What I use depends on where it is located. None of my soil is really "good" but I keep working on it.


I garden solely in raised beds. My "soil" is decomposed granite and is also lousy with gophers.

That said, you can squeeze a surprising amount of food out of properly used raised beds. Even if I had good soil and no gophers I'd probably do the majority of my gardening in raised beds, I love them that much.


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## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

i took off for the supermarket at 7am. i was worried a bit. not a bit of flour yesterday in wmart and the news about grocery stores closing was getting to me and i wanted to see for myself. i bake every day so if i have flour and yeast etc i'm all set . i was down to 3 cups. first time in 40 years that i didn't have at least 30 lb on hand. 

i didn't know what i was in for when i went through the door. no shortage of anything in my regular store. plenty flour,yeast etc. i'm well prepped otherwise. enough canned food for a couple years. granted it's there but the prices are through the roof for everything. but i knew that. (i have to stop listening to the news though) soon as i got home i called my son and told him not to bother looking for flour. he said "too late mother i was just out and bought 100 lbs". happiness is lots of flour to me. i already have a pineapple cake in the oven. ~Georgia


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> They werent trying to pay for property taxes, the farm houses at this point were vacant from consolidation of farms.


We had an empty house for the very reason you mentioned. We let a family live in it for free. They started taking the wood off the side of the house to burn for heat.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> capitalism with concentration of wealth and ever more monopolies and oligopolies, big disconnect between pay and cost to live, it will fail just like Soviet socialism.


Our system has worked much longer than the Soviet system did. Our system will continue on for many years to come or until someone perverts it to meet socialist goals. That is happening.
.


HermitJohn said:


> Just like Mexico, 5% own everything, everybody else struggles.


Income inequality existed in Mexico from day one based on the Spanish land grants.

That said, I agree with you that income inequality in the US is a problem. "Unfortunately" some people are successful beyond measure. Conversely, some can't ever catch a break. Most operate in the middle of the bell curve.



HermitJohn said:


> So you think capitalists do all their own labor?


Labor trades their time for money. That is the bargain between Labor and Capitalist. No system has lifted more people from poverty. No system seems to work better.



HermitJohn said:


> Oh I forget, we no longer mining, manufacturing, or agriculture as main part of our economy.


The US is the largest ag exporter in the world.
The US is the 2nd largest mining country in the world

China – 28.7% Global Manufacturing Output
United States – 16.8% Global Manufacturing Output (The US was #1 for decades)
Japan – 7.5% Global Manufacturing Output
Germany – 5.3% Global Manufacturing Output
India – 3.1% Global Manufacturing Output
South Korea – 3% Global Manufacturing Output
Italy – 2.1% Global Manufacturing Output
France – 1.9% Global Manufacturing Output
United Kingdom – 1.8% Global Manufacturing Output
Indonesia – 1.6% Global Manufacturing Output


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Shopped yesterday. Everything was stocked. First time in a month that the salad section was full.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

It hasn't really been as issue here either.


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

At my last trip to the store the top Ramen was pretty wiped out. Come to think of it, another supermarket that I don't frequent as often was cleared out of the Ramen, too. Ramen isn't something that I buy but the empty shelves are hard to ignore. I was in kind of a hurry but don't recall any other huge shortages.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Haven't been in a well stocked store in more than a year. Unless you are only going to the store for beer and cigarettes, they are out of something. We try to go no more than weekly, and used to be able to manage monthly shopping trips. Now it's weekly, sometimes biweekly trips to get the thing that has been in short supply. It will be crackers one time, barbecue sauce another, who knows what, but it's always something. Might be a particular brand, sometimes it starts extending to an entire product type. Maybe we are too far from a port.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

HDRider said:


> We had an empty house for the very reason you mentioned. We let a family live in it for free. They started taking the wood off the side of the house to burn for heat.


I do not know how I would have reacted to that.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

mreynolds said:


> That is exactly what it is. If this were 13 months ago we know who's fault it would have been.
> 
> Now, it's just stuff happens.


Missing Ramen and Gatorade; stuff for the flu is what that sounds like to me and understandable.

In Maine, it seems like pet foods, cream cheese, whole sections of frozen foods, many bread products, crackers, cookies, and goat milk are missing from the shelves, some other stuff too.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> I do not know how I would have reacted to that.


About the only thing you could do is make them move.

It was actually common for folks to let people live in houses for free.

As farms grew houses came empty.

Now they just tear the house down and bury it. I have seen some nice house be put in the ground


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

HDRider said:


> About the only thing you could do is make them move.
> 
> It was actually common for folks to let people live in houses for free.
> 
> ...


Me too, and it is a shame.

Ripping my place apart though... Actually, now that I think of it twice I let "reliable" people liveing homes that I owned. 
Both times I had to stay away until they were gone, mostly to avoid jail time. The first cost me about $3-5K to fix, the second over $30k.
I sold both and was able to recover the expenses. I don't understand now, i didn't understand then.

Oh, and there is my farm. Let a couple live here for free for about two years, they now tell people that we were unfair to them. 
How is that, because I didn't chop the wood and pay the electric for them?

It is a crazy world. 

I think I block this stuff out. Happy is good


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I guess I was lucky. The people I let live in my vacant house didn't tear up the house. They did throw away part of the silverware set hubby bought me when we got married, let weird things grow in some dishes, broke my favorite coffee cup and some other little irritating things. But the house was undamaged.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Danaus29 said:


> I guess I was lucky. The people I let live in my vacant house didn't tear up the house. They did throw away part of the silverware set hubby bought me when we got married, let weird things grow in some dishes, broke my favorite coffee cup and some other little irritating things. But the house was undamaged.


We keep one vacant if family or friends house burns down. Three bedroom , two bath fully furnished. Power and water is active and no one has spent a night in it for 16 years... We call it the hunting shack even though its brick with a full basement. We just shoot deer out of the windows...


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Last night the soda selection at Walmart was very barren. I was able to get a pack of Mountain Dew and a 2 liter of Sierra Mist. I have some grapefruit juice that needs to be drunk and Sierra Mist makes it bearable. It's not the good grapefruit juice.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

*IF* hubby ever gets time off work, I have a house I want to fix up. I would use it for family and friends that need a place to stay and for my use when I want a little vacation.

The county thinks wooded ravines are worth more than flat, tillable land. The land taxes on that one are more than the other 2 lots combined.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

HDRider said:


> Our system has worked much longer than the Soviet system did. Our system will continue on for many years to come or until someone perverts it to meet socialist goals. That is happening.
> .
> 
> Income inequality existed in Mexico from day one based on the Spanish land grants.
> ...


Yea for white skinned males of the proper religion. Its been great run. Everybody else, not so much. Capitalism always depends on source of cheap labor. The capitalists dont do their own labor, they are management.... LOL They have to either enslave a class of people or make class people dependent on on crumbs off their table just to live. 

thing is capitalists no long produce anything in USA, they just buy cheap foreign goods and sell to the poor on easy payment plan. Also bid up housing, one of life necessities in order to squeeze more economic gain out of poor. Without poor, the wealthy cant make money.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

HermitJohn said:


> Yea for white skinned males of the proper religion. .


This is not the place for racism.

Go somewhere else for that


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## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

We shop mostly at Kroger about 10 miles away. We are not seeing to many shortages except the wife's "Powerade Zero Sugar Power Water Lemon". She will only drink the lemon flavor which seems to sell out first, all other flavors are in stock all the time. Now the freshness of their produce has taken a major hit over the last year.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> Yea for white skinned males of the proper religion.


You live in a dark place.

I assume you mean Jewish, or did you mean Hindu?


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

HDRider said:


> You live in a dark place.
> 
> I assume you mean Jewish, or did you mean Hindu?
> 
> View attachment 104834



It is those "rangy" 'Piscopalians... 🤯

(I am on of those)


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to participate in politics. That's why they have so few high income earners under their roof.


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## flewism (Apr 2, 2007)

Hispanic Atheist like me seem to be doing OK.😀


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

HDRider said:


> We had an empty house for the very reason you mentioned. We let a family live in it for free. They started taking the wood off the side of the house to burn for heat.


Ah, but you were still landlord and probably a sucker not even charging minimal rent. One thing to help somebody after storm destroys their house, another to try and help a ner'do well. Yea charity is fine, but they need to have some skin in the game one way or another. Big hint, tenants and toilets are big PITA. No matter what you charge. Let them find out burning house down to keep warm is counter productive. But let them discover this valuable life lesson with their own house. Sometimes people only learn by doing. This kind person going to do stupid stuff to a rental whether you charge one penny per month or $2000 per month. They have no actual skin in the game. They would be unlikely to do this to house they are buying. Well some would, there would be some that can only think very short term.

I think only way to deal speculators and current crazy home/rent prices short of Great Depression 2.0 is to restrict ownership of housing to person that actually lives there. At very least ban foreign and corporate ownership of residential housing. Its not the old couple living in a duplex and renting out an apartment that is causing the problem. Its the speculators bidding up residential properties and abusing tax laws to play speculation games. Also also make it very expensive to build any house over 1500sq ft. This notion that only house worth building has to be size of a large barn is nutso. Though real problem is that those older smaller tract homes were sold to factory laborers with good union jobs. We cut off those jobs. Now you have peon McD jobs then jump up to "needs a college degree" kind of jobs. The greedy cut off the lower rungs of the ladder and mailed them to China. So much less demand for lower end stand alone housing. 

You can say what you want about USSR brand communism, not a pleasant system, but at least they didnt have homeless people. Was craptastic poorly made concrete housing with shared kitchens, but there was housing for everybody. Nobody living in cardboard boxes on sidewalk. And back in day here in USA, we had cheap rooming houses or flop houses for the poor, all capitalist no govt mandates, now all that got torn down so some rich guys (and municipal tax people) could make more money via gentrification. Meaning no housing for those at low end. Housing only for the rich doesnt work.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HermitJohn said:


> Yea for white skinned males


If someone gets skinned I don't think they are having a good day at all.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> You can say what you want about USSR brand communism, not a pleasant system, but at least they didn't have homeless people.


You are right. They also had jobs. The Russian Gulag housed about 18 million people and gave them all a job. A lot of those jobs were made available until death, cradle to grave. Many saw it as a way to reeducate them to be good Soviets


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

HermitJohn said:


> Yea for white skinned males of the proper religion. Its been great run. Everybody else, not so much. Capitalism always depends on source of cheap labor. The capitalists dont do their own labor, they are management.... LOL They have to either enslave a class of people or make class people dependent on on crumbs off their table just to live.
> 
> thing is capitalists no long produce anything in USA, they just buy cheap foreign goods and sell to the poor on easy payment plan. Also bid up housing, one of life necessities in order to squeeze more economic gain out of poor. Without poor, the wealthy cant make money.


Come out and work with this white skinned male for a month and you be be happy to be a Hermit!!! I'm willing to pay you???


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

TripleD said:


> Come out and work with this white skinned male for a month and you be be happy to be a Hermit!!! I'm willing to pay you???


Dam capitalist!!!


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## oldasrocks (Oct 27, 2006)

HermitJohn said:


> As to empty shelves.... havent seen that, just high prices. Eggs for example have really zoomed. If anybody worried about shortages, maybe you should plant a bigger garden next spring. You own land, not such a big deal. However you rent during housing shortage and you dont have space for garden nor money to buy food after landlord gets his cut.


We're overrun with eggs these days. Getting 20 or so per day. 17 dozen in frig right now.


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

HDRider said:


> You are right. They also had jobs. The Russian Gulag housed about 18 million people and gave them all a job. A lot of those jobs were made available until death, cradle to grave. Many saw it as a way to reeducate them to be good Soviets



I know MANY folks from that system, I have yet to meet one, ONE, person, male,female, or what you have, that wants to return to that system.

Why the F! don't we ask those who have been there what to expect? Because YOU know better? That is oppressive by definition.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> Dam capitalist!!!


This is what I was born and bred to do!!! You know the movie 🍿...


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> I know MANY folks from that system, I have yet to meet one, ONE, person, male,female, or what you have, that wants to return to that system.
> 
> Why the F! don't we ask those who have been there what to expect? Because YOU know better? That is oppressive by definition.


Actually, there are several Brandon cabinet members and repudiated nominees that are still with the Soviet program.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

oldasrocks said:


> We're overrun with eggs these days. Getting 20 or so per day. 17 dozen in frig right now.


Dang, I'm jealous. I haven't had any eggs for weeks until today, got one lone egg. I was so happy! We'll see if it continues or if that was a one-off.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

oldasrocks said:


> We're overrun with eggs these days. Getting 20 or so per day. 17 dozen in frig right now.


I thought our chickens were on winter layoff and drawing unemployment and then I found about two dozen eggs in a back corner of the coop. Obviously I have a management problem as the Roosters did not properly train the new hires where inventory and storage receptacles were located.
I should never have let the union get a talon hold.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> I thought our chickens were on winter layoff and drawing unemployment and then I found about two dozen eggs in a back corner of the coop. Obviously I have a management problem as the Roosters did not properly train the new hires where inventory and storage receptacles were located.
> I should never have let the union get a talon hold.


Your doomed now. Next thing you know, they are going to want oyster shell in every pan.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Human Resources was notified we have to implement Critical Rooster Theory with all new friers, er hires.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> I know MANY folks from that system, I have yet to meet one, ONE, person, male,female, or what you have, that wants to return to that system.
> 
> Why the F! don't we ask those who have been there what to expect? Because YOU know better? That is oppressive by definition.


Let's mimic the Russian and Chinese illegal immigration policy.
BTW, what are the numbers of illegal aliens trespassing into capitalist countries vs illegals crossing into socialist countries?
Kim Chong il would probably tell you that there is no difference between cooking your pork ribs over a pile of Kingsford charcoal and a pile of Yak dung.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mish said:


> Dang, I'm jealous. I haven't had any eggs for weeks until today, got one lone egg. I was so happy! We'll see if it continues or if that was a one-off.


My chickens are molting and have stopped laying. I normally have lots of eggs, more than we can eat from my 11 hens. We had to buy eggs last trip to the market


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

GTX63 said:


> Human Resources was notified we have to implement Critical Rooster Theory with all new friers, er hires.


White leghorns?


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## B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa (Jan 4, 2019)

HDRider said:


> We had to buy eggs last trip to the market


I bet they were not nearly so tasty as your home grown eggs 

Normally we have 20-25 chickens running around eating the grass and bugs, but since the move we have not had the time to build a new coop, so no chickens.
BUT! we did raise 70 broilers in the chicken tractor. We saved four just for the heck of it. We call them our "Canadian Snow Chickens" 
They must be 15 lbs each, at least 12.

We thought they could not mate, but ours do, sort of..., we now get an egg a day (frozen) from the two hens.
When "fluffy" crows it is a deep baritone.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

B&L Chicken Ranch and Spa said:


> I bet they were not nearly so tasty as your home grown eggs


I hate the store eggs, well maybe not hate, but I love my farm eggs.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HDRider said:


> My chickens are molting and have stopped laying. I normally have lots of eggs, more than we can eat from my 11 hens. We had to buy eggs last trip to the market


Mine are mostly done molting except for one or two, but I think they're continuing to protest the short days. I'm still working on the eggs in the fridge, but we're down to just over a dozen. Probably going to have to commit blasphemy here soon and buy some eggs too.


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## ladytoysdream (Dec 13, 2008)

I get about 10 eggs per day from the ducks, bantams and the 3 leghorns. 
They do not look like they are molting. Only the leghorns are missing neck feathers 
around their heads. Once the weather gets better and they all kick back in 
then I can start the hatching. My friend gets 13 eggs per day out of 13 
standard size hens. I know where to get eggs if I need them


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## RJ2019 (Aug 27, 2019)

Mish said:


> Mine are mostly done molting except for one or two, but I think they're continuing to protest the short days. I'm still working on the eggs in the fridge, but we're down to just over a dozen. Probably going to have to commit blasphemy here soon and buy some eggs too.


I normally get eggs through the winter, but my new batch of 3 (formerly 4) layers decided to stop laying back in mid-october. One just started laying again this last week. Wouldn't have thought it from first year hens


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