# Our Retirement (Ontario, Canada)



## Intrigue

My wife and I are both the same age (66) and recently retired with 1 year of retirement under our belt. The big difference here is that we retired in Canada....a whole different ballgame than retiring in the USA. Nothing against the US, but that country is just not "seniors friendly" leaving seniors on their own. Here's our situation.....

Old Age Security (OAS) and Canada Pension Plan (CPP) pays us about $26K/year (with supplement) tax free. We were always self-employed so there is no workplace pension income. However we have saved up enough money and invested in Dividend-paying ETFs that allows us to withdraw about $12K/year in dividend income without touching the principle amount. Divends are based on a percentage, so as the investments increase in value, so do the dividends...sort of a built-in inflation hedge.. We do not pay any income taxes on this small amount. We have not had to spend all the money and the surplus is kept in a Savings Account.

A few years ago we sold the hobby farm (homestead) when the kids all left. We bought a country house on waterfront with about 2 acres of land. 1/2 an acre is allocated to summer vegetable garden and a lot of the vegetables grown are either frozen, canned, or dried. Several years ago we stopped eating much meat. A chicken breast will be enough for the two of us when diced into a vegetable stir fry. The only red meat indulgence is a couple of striploin steaks or babyback ribs on the BBQ grill once a week in the summer. We can fish for walleye, bass, etc, etc right off the dock in the backyard. At night there's some 25 lb+ catfish lurking. Even though there are deer, hundreds of turkeys and thousands of geese in the vicinity, we don't hunt.

Of course. living in Canada, all medical is free. Seniors also get free prescription medications. Because of our healthy lifestyle (clean air and water, good nutrition diet, exercise, etc), we don't really get to see the doctor very often, mostly just the annual medical but it's nice to know its all there if needed. My best friend is a dentist (free dental work).

There is no mortgage, no debt. We purchased a new 2011 Toyota Venza and paid cash. Probably won't need another car for 10 more years. 

Winter we tend to "hibernate" (hate cold and snow) but during the summer we like the outdoors, hopping in the boat and going fishing or exploring the water. 2 or 3 day trips are common, visiting the grandkids, hobbies and projects all keep us busy. We also get a fair number of "guests" probably because of the waterfront, people from the city (Toronto) like to visit (about a 2 hour drive)

So far we are enjoying our retirement.


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## Ramblin Wreck

Sounds like you guys developed a nice retirement equation given the "variables" you had to work with. Hope the fishing is great for you this Spring and Summer.


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## newfieannie

well technically you could say it's free I spose. we pay heavily through the tax system. good thing you got a dentist friend. Ive seen my friend pay a small fortune to them. PT is another thing that sucks the money right out of your wallet if you have to go enough times. I myself pay around 1500 a year for Blue cross. I hear that it's all free too but my husbands friend had to spend every cent he had when his wife got cancer. I thought pharmacare would cover that too. I don't have it myself. I'm in excellent shape but I guess i'll find out what's covered when I start going downhill. ~Georgia


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## where I want to

That sounds nice but if you don't pay any taxes, who pays for the free medical for you?


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## emdeengee

Roughly 10% of income tax goes to fund Universal Healthcare. So if you pay $10,000 in income tax then your medical costs you $1000. And if you look at the income tax rates that Canadians pay you will see that we are on a par with US rates and actually have a lower rate for the higher bracket and corporate and small business tax.

There are services that are not covered by Universal Healthcare so you can either pay directly or purchase healthcare insurance that covers a portion of the missing services such as prescription drugs, chiropractors, optometrists, dentists, physiotherapy, massage therapy etc. However if you have a chronic condition that requires certain medications or treatments then this is covered by UH.

My cancer treatments have cost well over $500,000. My cost - Nothing. Other than the taxes (10% went to healthcare) that I have paid over the past 43 years. The total taxes I have paid are approx $600,000 (an average of $14,000 a year but less when starting out and more when advancing through my career) but the total for healthcare contribution is only $60,000. Best insurance rate out there. Because Universal Healthcare is health insurance. We all pay into it and we all get to use it as needed. I took/take care of them and they take care of me. Isn't that what a country is about?

How do we pay for "free" healthcare. Through our taxes which we seniors have paid all of our lives. When you retire with a lower income it may be that you do not pay tax any longer but then the slack is made up for and paid by the younger generations. And if anyone would complain I would just tell them that they can thank me and the previous generations for the roads they drive on, the education they have, the medical care they have had since before birth and the protection and stability they enjoy in all aspects of their day to day lives. I took/take care of them and they take care of me. Isn't that what a country is about?


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## where I want to

emdeengee said:


> I took/take care of them and they take care of me. Isn't that what a country is about?


Well, I guess different strokes for different folks. I think a country organized to protect me from those who would take from me with fraud or violence so that I am free to take care of myself as I choose.


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## emdeengee

So a Universal Healthcare system which was voted for by the citizens of a country and is paid for by the citizens of a country does not protect them and is a form of fraud and violence? Sorry, not getting the connection.

Universal healthcare means that my dollar goes to pay for the delivery of my neighbour through her pregnancy and her dollar goes to pay for my cancer treatment. Same with everything our taxes pay for. The reality of living in a country is that everyone pays for everything. I pay for roads and bridges in provinces that I will never drive on. I pay for a military that may never fire a shot in my defense. I pay for the education of children who have no relation to me other than that we are Canadian citizens. Once my taxes are paid then all the other money that I earn is mine to do with as I choose. Same for all my neighbours and fellow citizens.

This is one reason why Intrigue has such a well balanced and secure retirement.


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## where I want to

emdeengee said:


> So a Universal Healthcare system which was voted for by the citizens of a country and is paid for by the citizens of a country does not protect them and is a form of fraud and violence? Sorry, not getting the connection.


That is because I never made that connection. You hooked those two things together.
I have said previously that being stuck in a health plan that restricted who I could choose to see came close to killing me when their rules said I didn't need a referral. And at the same time I was involved in a forum for people with the same rare disease. There were posters from Canada and the UK who had the same problem. Their system assigned doctors were not effective yet they were not able to get the doctors to make referrals as the doctors basically did not understand the disease and dismissed their concerns. And there they remained. While the Americans kept posting about just going to other doctors if they were not satisfied.
I, on the other hand, changed insurance and got to the doctors I needed at my own instigation. 
So, while it is pleasant to have little heath costs, it is much more important to me to have the freedom to act as I choose, not as the system chooses. If you never have such a rare disease, then ordinary rules may not impact you. But if you do, then taking charge of your own care may save your life.


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## emdeengee

where I want to said:


> That is because I never made that connection. You hooked those two things together.
> I have said previously that being stuck in a health plan that restricted who I could choose to see came close to killing me when their rules said I didn't need a referral. And at the same time I was involved in a forum for people with the same rare disease. There were posters from Canada and the UK who had the same problem. Their system assigned doctors were not effective yet they were not able to get the doctors to make referrals as the doctors basically did not understand the disease and dismissed their concerns. And there they remained. While the Americans kept posting about just going to other doctors if they were not satisfied.
> I, on the other hand, changed insurance and got to the doctors I needed at my own instigation.
> So, while it is pleasant to have little heath costs, it is much more important to me to have the freedom to act as I choose, not as the system chooses. If you never have such a rare disease, then ordinary rules may not impact you. But if you do, then taking charge of your own care may save your life.


Actually you threw that little phrase in and I was trying to figure out what possible connection that had to do with my comments. 

I don't know where it was that you got stuck in a restricted choice healthcare system but if it was in the US then that is simply a question of choosing a better insurance company. 

When I was in hospital there were several Americans being treated for the same cancer. They came to Canada for treatment because their insurance companies would not cover them and they could not change to another company because of this pre-existing condition (before the Affordable Care Act) and to pay privately would have cost them more than twice what treatment cost them in Canada. 

Not being able to choose your healthcare professional is not the way Universal Healthcare works. I can choose and always have chosen exactly who I want as a doctor or a specialist. 

I can get second and third opinions, as I have done. You can even choose a different hospital for treatment but that will probably involve a different doctor as doctors are generally affiliated with certain hospitals. 

I can go to different provinces for treatment if the specialized treatment I need is not available where I live. 

The system does not assign doctors. In fact no one has any say in your medical treatment except the doctors involved. Your family doctor or the hospital refers you to a specialist. If you don't like the specialist or feel that you want another opinion then you just ask for one. 

If any of these people who were posting were being stranded on the healthcare ladder then it was the individual doctor (GP or specialist) who was creating the bottleneck. Not everyone has a good doctor whether under a private or Universal healthcare system.


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## where I want to

emdeengee said:


> If any of these people who were posting were being stranded on the healthcare ladder then it was the individual doctor (GP or specialist) who was creating the bottleneck. Not everyone has a good doctor whether under a private or Universal healthcare system.


No and that was my problem too. That I had an ineffective doctor and was required to get a referral to see a specialist. That was also the problem with the people posting in the forum.
I solved it by enrolling in an insurance plan that did not require a "gateway" doctor's approval. However the people writing from English speaking countries with universal health insurance did not seem to be able to find their way around local hospitals and doctors to get to the various specialists that were needed. I don't know if they had options that they didn't exercise because I never worked within such a system. But it seemed a very constant issue and one their American counterparts couldn't seem to grasp. The waits and requirements seemed to be insurmountable for them to maintain their health.
I can see that someone who could qualify for free health care in Canada would do so if they had no or very limited health care in the US. Free is good. But I sat in many a clinic waiting room with foreigners, uninsured and public assistance patients in big American hospitals so care was available, mostly free for those who could not afford it. 
But I would not trade the freedom to see whoever I think most helpful for free where others make the decisions for me ever again.


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## emdeengee

They probably had options that they did not exercise but it could also be a case of restricted services available where they lived. Not every town has every service or specialist available so you have to be willing to go where necessary. I have lived/worked in nearly all the provinces and some of the territories never had a problem accessing services and specialists even if it meant flying out and if things are really bad (whatever your condition) and you go to the hospital they arrange all the services, tests and specialists and even medi-vac flights when necessary.

Just a comment on two things - Universal Healthcare is not free. We pay for it and we share it. If you are a foreigner (including Americans) and you get sick in Canada you pay for your medical care - either through your insurance or your own cheque book. Of course many bills are written off for humanitarian reasons as it was done for the stranded passengers on Sept 11th.

And - we have the same freedom to see any doctor/specialist that we chose who will take us on as a patient. It is actually the doctors choice. And no one makes decisions for the patient other than the patient and their doctor(s).

Sorry to have taken your thread off on a tangent Intrique. I think are following a great plan for your retirement - no debt, no mortgage, new car that will last, self sufficient food production, independent retirement funds and a healthy lifestyle. This is our plan as well.


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## Intrigue

With specific reference to healthcare in Canada, I can only reference to the Province of Ontario (but virtually all provinces are very similar). Let me give you our personal example.

When we moved to our current new home, we needed to change doctors. My wife's old doctor and my doctor (different doctors) were 200 kms away. So we accessed the Ministry of Health website, registered and obtained a "list" of family practice doctors in the area who are accepting new patients. We visited the doctor by appointment, filled out the registration paprework and now had a doctor. BUT, it soon became apparent that the guy was a "quack" and my wife refused to ever go back to him. so, we registered another docter (actually closer geographically) and this doctor is very thorough. All I want is that the doctor keep me alive. 

The family doctor becomes the "conduit" to specialists, testing (example Cat scan, MRI) and treatments. In the case of an emergency hospital visit, I can go to any hospital I want....no restrictions. If you hace a medical condition that needs a Cat Scan now, you will get that scan now. If you need a shunt now, you will get that shunt. A few years back, my wife had an appendix emergency and went to the local "small" hospital. There was a concern so they called Patient Transfer services and transported her to a large hospital for an abdominal cat Scan, then transported her back to the small hospital. Because it was the weekend, they had the operating room staff come in, fire up the operating room, then they all went home and she went to recovery. Is that service or what? I don't know where the so-called "horror stories" that Americans seem to hear about come from. I suspect that they are stories generated by US health insurance companies in order to convince the US citizen that universal healthcare is crappola (which it is not)

Since I don't get sick much, let me give an example of my mother (now 87 years young. She has had gall bladder surgery, breast cancer surgery and treatment, heart ablation, pacemaker implant, shingles, and a host of other lesser conditions. She didn't like her first cardiologist, so asked for another one and eventually a third (older seniors seem to need a doctor with good bedside manner). She has been admitted to the hospital several times over the past years. My point is that she gets the same quality treatment as every other citizen in Ontario.


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## where I want to

http://www.ethox.ox.ac.uk/ethox-blog/ethical-issues-arising-in-individual-patient-referrals





emdeengee said:


> They probably had options that they did not exercise but it could also be a case of restricted services available where they lived. Not every town has every service or specialist available so you have to be willing to go where necessary. I have lived/worked in nearly all the provinces and some of the territories never had a problem accessing services and specialists even if it meant flying out and if things are really bad (whatever your condition) and you go to the hospital they arrange all the services, tests and specialists and even medi-vac flights when necessary.
> 
> Just a comment on two things - Universal Healthcare is not free. We pay for it and we share it. If you are a foreigner (including Americans) and you get sick in Canada you pay for your medical care - either through your insurance or your own cheque book. Of course many bills are written off for humanitarian reasons as it was done for the stranded passengers on Sept 11th.
> 
> And - we have the same freedom to see any doctor/specialist that we chose who will take us on as a patient. It is actually the doctors choice. And no one makes decisions for the patient other than the patient and their doctor(s).
> 
> Sorry to have taken your thread off on a tangent Intrique. I think are following a great plan for your retirement - no debt, no mortgage, new car that will last, self sufficient food production, independent retirement funds and a healthy lifestyle. This is our plan as well.


It was not a geographic issue. People would have been happy to travel for treatment. The problem was that a referral was required to access treatment and that referral was deemed not necessary by the doctor. Thus no access. 
But with universal care, doing an end run around an obstructing doctor seemed very difficult whereas I simply chose chose to refer myself under an alternative insurance. It's the very act of requiring a referral, a neccessary cost control on government service where the patient feels no personal financial contraint, from a doctor who has either not succeeded or dismissed complaints that will get a person killed.


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## mzgarden

Back to the original post - sounds like you have a nice plan and are one year into your living it out. Love the picture of walking out your door and fishing off the dock in the summer.


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## where I want to

mzgarden said:


> Back to the original post - sounds like you have a nice plan and are one year into your living it out. Love the picture of walking out your door and fishing off the dock in the summer.


Too bad the opening paragraph was a wholesale criticism of the US. Spoiled what would have been a pleasant chat.


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## emdeengee

where I want to said:


> http://www.ethox.ox.ac.uk/ethox-blog/ethical-issues-arising-in-individual-patient-referrals
> 
> It was not a geographic issue. People would have been happy to travel for treatment. The problem was that a referral was required to access treatment and that referral was deemed not necessary by the doctor. Thus no access.
> But with universal care, doing an end run around an obstructing doctor seemed very difficult whereas I simply chose chose to refer myself under an alternative insurance. It's the very act of requiring a referral, a neccessary cost control on government service where the patient feels no personal financial contraint, from a doctor who has either not succeeded or dismissed complaints that will get a person killed.


If this is what people are telling you then this makes no sense. But then again I agree with Intrique - over the years we have seen a lot of propaganda against universal healthcare which is clearly untrue and deliberate. People may have true stories to tell but people also exaggerate. There are always two sides.

No one I/we know has ever had a problem accessing specialists through referrals. General Practitioners treat their patients but when puzzled they are the first to send you for every test known to mankind and to whichever specialist they think might serve the symptoms. If your GP does not follow this sort of protocol then it is an individual indictment not one of the system. There are great doctors, middling doctors and bad doctors. When I was under assessment the specialist (who flies in to hold clinics) missed his plane (and thus his son's final soccer game) because he had two patients (one being me) who he was determined to diagnose. A great doctor.

We are free to choose our family doctor so if you do not like/agree/approve of their diagnosis then you can get a second opinion or change doctors. 

If you cannot get a permanent general practitioner then there are thousands of clinics staffed with a wide variety of doctors where you can go for treatment and assessment. Not to mention access to hospital clinics and emergency wards. 

Doctors do make mistakes or are incompetent (under any system) but if you think your condition is mis-diagnosed then you have a lot of options. If all the doctors you see do not think that you need a referral to a specialist then either they are right or they are wrong or your symptoms do not present in a way to provide a diagnosis.

And once again - the government has NO say in the doctor/patient relationship or in the treatment. This is between the doctor and the patient. If the doctor thinks you need an MRI, CATscan or any other test then you get it.


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## emdeengee

where I want to said:


> Too bad the opening paragraph was a wholesale criticism of the US. Spoiled what would have been a pleasant chat.


Hardly a wholesale criticism of the US. A criticism and an opinion. We all have criticisms and opinions of other countries and we all get them in return.


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## where I want to

emdeengee said:


> Hardly a wholesale criticism of the US. A criticism and an opinion. We all have criticisms and opinions of other countries and we all get them in return.


Really? Show me one where someone started a thread by disparaging Canada's abandonment - oh let's say- of Indigenous women? Or of Canada's treatment of failed asylum seekers (illegal immigrants in the US?) No disrespect intended. Only an opinion. Now don't get riled. 
I just don't think that opening paragraph was was anything but rude. And the words were chosen to be so. No disrespect intended.


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## Fennick

where I want to said:


> Really? Show me one where someone started a thread by disparaging Canada's abandonment - oh let's say- of Indigenous women? Or of Canada's treatment of failed asylum seekers (illegal immigrants in the US?) No disrespect intended. Only an opinion. Now don't get riled.
> I just don't think that opening paragraph was was anything but rude. And the words were chosen to be so. No disrespect intended.


I'm interested in your point of view. Would you be willing to start a new thread offering your perspective of the ways that USA is more "senior friendly" and more supportive of senior needs?


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## emdeengee

where I want to said:


> Really? Show me one where someone started a thread by disparaging Canada's abandonment - oh let's say- of Indigenous women? Or of Canada's treatment of failed asylum seekers (illegal immigrants in the US?) No disrespect intended. Only an opinion. Now don't get riled.
> I just don't think that opening paragraph was was anything but rude. And the words were chosen to be so. No disrespect intended.


Why would I get riled? The greatest disservice a citizen can do to their country is to defend that country's faults blindly. Please feel absolutely free to start any discussion at all about Canada. 

There have been several discussions about Canada on this site over the years. I even started a thread about Canadian subjects. They fell flat because no one showed any interest in discussing Canadian issues other than other Canadian posters. It is hard to have a discussion in a vaccum.


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## Mar-CilleFarm

emdeengee said:


> No one I/we know has ever had a problem accessing specialists through referrals.......We are free to choose our family doctor so if you do not like/agree/approve of their diagnosis then you can get a second opinion or change doctors......If you cannot get a permanent general practitioner then there are thousands of clinics staffed with a wide variety of doctors where you can go for treatment and assessment. Not to mention access to hospital clinics and emergency wards......And once again - the government has NO say in the doctor/patient relationship or in the treatment. This is between the doctor and the patient. If the doctor thinks you need an MRI, CATscan or any other test then you get it.


This all sounds wonderful until you become friends with a Canadian who shares the horror stories of the very long waits for services. My good friend who lives in Ontario had such terrible knees he was having to use a walker to support himself, and was near tears at every step. He waited over six months for one knee replacement and over eight months for the second one - some of the delay was due to having to wait for the necessary tests and scans, some was because he was on a waiting list for the surgeries. He told me that his case wasn't considered as urgent as others, so he had to wait. More than half a year of his life spent in constant pain on a waiting list.

In the meantime here in the USA my husband was diagnosed with a knee issue requiring surgery, two days later had the surgery and was in PT the next day. 

There is good and bad about every system but in my circle of friends, there is almost 100% agreement that having the freedom to see a doctor when you want, where you want is preferable to being held hostage by ever higher taxes and a government bureaucrat deciding what health care you are entitled to and when.


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## where I want to

Fennick said:


> I'm interested in your point of view. Would you be willing to start a new thread offering your perspective of the ways that USA is more "senior friendly" and more supportive of senior needs?


I just got back to this thread and thus the delay.

The point is not more senior friendly, which a best is a nonsense phrase, but of retaining the freedom to use your own judgement in seeing to your own care. Young, old or in between. To use your own earnings to achieve what you think you need.
It is terribly demeaning to have a health systems where people who stand outside of your body have control of treatment you can get - who tell you that what you feel is not what you feel and have all the power to make it stick. So sad, too bad- next.......


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## Skip

For any senior ( or any individual ) needing additional assistance at home in Ontario please contact your Community Access Care Centre. Home care assistance is available which is funded through the healthcare system. This is great support for families' with aging members who need assistance.

I wish I had known about it when I was younger and ill with young children at home. Age isn't a prerequisite.

Sometimes seniors assume that we are there to get them to move to assisted living, but I assure them that we are there to help them stay at home if that is their wish.

I don't know if the other provinces have a similar program, but would presume so, with our aging population.

Best Wishes to all


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