# Heck of a school board meeting.



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ly-the-superintendent/?utm_term=.27c8653260b6

In subsequent articles, at least one witness has come forward to corroborate the man’s story and that Hindt went on to be the worst bully in high school as well.

Sad that this superintendent laughed when the man he bullied in junior high named him.

I wouldn’t want him as superintendent in my kids district.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Kid could just as easy taken his dads 45 and went to school and shot the *JERKS*, each and every one.


 Al


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I read the article yesterday. The man was in tears during his time to speak.
The super flat out denied it in a statement afterwards.
Don't think the smoke from this will be leaving the Houston area any time soon.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Funny thing about being bullied as a kid. You don’t ever forget. I was a new kid in middle school when my family moved to NJ. I was tall and had curly red haired and was very shy. Perfect target for the jock kids...boys and girls. Luckily I had great parents and my dad finally went to the school after calling didn’t help. He did threaten one teacher who joined in with the bullies with throwing him over his desk. 
The bullying did stop abruptly. 
I went on and was never bullied again. Since you never really forget your bully’s names I looked them up in recent years and they haven’t done very well in life, which I’m not particularly ashamed to admit pleases me. 

I completely believe this man. Especially since his story was backed up by witnesses. I can’t even imagine how hard it was in junior high in that time period to have the last name of Gay.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Lisa in WA said:


> Funny thing about being bullied as a kid. You don’t ever forget. I was a new kid in middle school when my family moved to NJ. I was tall and had curly red haired and was very shy. Perfect target for the jock kids...boys and girls. Luckily I had great parents and my dad finally went to the school after calling didn’t help. He did threaten one teacher who joined in with the bullies with throwing him over his desk.
> The bullying did stop abruptly.
> I went on and was never bullied again. Since you never really forget your bully’s names I looked them up in recent years and they haven’t done very well in life, which I’m not particularly ashamed to admit pleases me.
> 
> I completely believe this man. Especially since his story was backed up by witnesses. I can’t even imagine how hard it was in junior high in that time period to have the last name of Gay.



Unfortunately lasts a life time. But we persevered, so we came out on top.

I was raised by single mother (rare in 60s), glasses,braces, loved to read, introvert. How cruel kids can be is astounding.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

I came in from a country school, so wasn't really up to speed on the whole social interaction thing when I went to high school.
I was tall, skinny and shy, so I got bullied some.
One day we had just walked into study hall, and the guy known as the toughest kid in our class started shoving me around.
I knew I had to make a stand then and there, so I beat him to the floor then I beat him some more.
Ever since then we've been good friends and nobody bothered me after that.
My dad always said, "Bullies are cowards, if you fight back they will leave you alone".
I don't know if that's always the case, but it worked when I was a kid.
I do know if you give in, they'll never leave you alone.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Cornhusker said:


> I came in from a country school, so wasn't really up to speed on the whole social interaction thing when I went to high school.
> I was tall, skinny and shy, so I got bullied some.
> One day we had just walked into study hall, and the guy known as the toughest kid in our class started shoving me around.
> I knew I had to make a stand then and there, so I beat him to the floor then I beat him some more.
> ...


I agree with that. Girls weren’t necessarily taught to fight but my dad did teach me and I did have to fight back at least twice. 
I taught my own daughters that it’s best never to ignore a bully. I’m proud that although they themselves were never bullied (beyond an attempt) that they both on more than one occasion stuck up for kids who were bullied and stopped it.


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## Steve_S (Feb 25, 2015)

Indeed Bullies leave a mark on people.... Grade 5 or so, I was being bullied by a few but one day, the biggest of them who was without his pals decided to have a go at me again... We were standing next to those steel pipe bike racks which are concreted into the ground and I got ahold of his long brown curly hair and introduced his face repeatedly to the steel bike rack... broke his nose and knocked out all his front teeth and left him lying on the ground as the nuns dragged me into the school to the Head Nun who decided that 10 hit with the beaver tail was the answer. The Beaver Tail "Queue de castor" was a leather strap about the size & shape of a beaver tail with cross hatches in the leather... great for splitting the skin... As a bonus I got a whopping from my dad when I got home too BUT I never got bullied in that school again !

Next school, again being a target as a newbie... well having learned the lesson, 2nd or 3rd time a kid bullied me, I grabbed a reasonable branch which fell from a tree and broke it over the kid... as other victims of his surround us and cheered me on... he changed schools realizing how many kids he bullied were out to get him after that, as a gang... none of us got bullied again because the bullies saw we became a gang.

Ahh the good ol days when you could sort this stuff out without Political Correct Social Engineering WUSSIES having to make all the Bad Little Johnies feel ok about themselves.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I ran a protection racket for bullied kids in Jr. high.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> I ran a protection racket for bullied kids in Jr. high.



If it makes you feel special, congratulations.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

keenataz said:


> If it makes you feel special, congratulations.


They appreciated it.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> They appreciated it.


I still do, but no charge.

In fact I have got in quite a bit of trouble when I stood up for an employee who was getting bullied by their supervisor.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

keenataz said:


> I still do, but no charge.
> 
> In fact I have got in quite a bit of trouble when I stood up for an employee who was getting bullied by their supervisor.


I did not charge anyone. If kids got pushed around, they came to me, I took care of it.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> I did not charge anyone. If kids got pushed around, they came to me, I took care of it.



Sorry, just the term protection racket made me think of the Sopranos kind of thing.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

keenataz said:


> Sorry, just the term protection racket made me think of the Sopranos kind of thing.


I did not like seeing kids pushed around, especially poor kids.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

keenataz said:


> Sorry, just the term protection racket made me think of the Sopranos kind of thing.


Why else would someone refer to it as a "protection racket" if they didn't want it seen in that light?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Friend of mine pulled her child from public school and enrolled him in private. It's expensive but as she said worth it! Her child was bullied repeatedly in full view of teachers, they did nothing but tell the child to not go around the bullies. After going through all the myriad steps to bring attention including school board nothing was accomplished but to kick the can down the road. 

The child was suspended as were the bullies. The schools explanation was zero tolerance and her child was involved. Some schools are not doing their jobs in protecting children. IMHO


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Why else would someone refer to it as a "protection racket" if they didn't want it seen in that light?


I'm Your Huckleberry


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## Murby (May 24, 2016)

Lisa in WA said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ly-the-superintendent/?utm_term=.27c8653260b6
> 
> In subsequent articles, at least one witness has come forward to corroborate the man’s story and that Hindt went on to be the worst bully in high school as well.
> 
> ...


Imagine if we held every adult responsible for the stupid things they did as children. 

The only thing that should count is how he does his job now. In fact, since he has experience with being a bully, he may feel bad about it and work even harder to prevent it. Or maybe he's still a jerk. 

Either way, how he performs now is what should matter.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

no really said:


> Friend of mine pulled her child from public school and enrolled him in private. It's expensive but as she said worth it! Her child was bullied repeatedly in full view of teachers, they did nothing but tell the child to not go around the bullies. After going through all the myriad steps to bring attention including school board nothing was accomplished but to kick the can down the road.
> 
> The child was suspended as were the bullies. The schools explanation was zero tolerance and her child was involved. Some schools are not doing their jobs in protecting children. IMHO


Ok so now what happens when this child who has not learned to deal with some of the unpleasant parts of life is a grown adult ? Money does not fix many things in life.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> Ok so now what happens when this child who has not learned to deal with some of the unpleasant parts of life is a grown adult ? Money does not fix many things in life.


So you would prefer the child was physically abused a bit more by older children. When a child is in school there should not be any way they are abused by others or staff that would suspend the child for being abused by others. That might be a pathway to some serious issues mentally.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Lisa in WA said:


> Funny thing about being bullied as a kid. You don’t ever forget. I was a new kid in middle school when my family moved to NJ. I was tall and had curly red haired and was very shy. Perfect target for the jock kids...boys and girls. Luckily I had great parents and my dad finally went to the school after calling didn’t help. He did threaten one teacher who joined in with the bullies with throwing him over his desk.
> The bullying did stop abruptly.
> I went on and was never bullied again. Since you never really forget your bully’s names I looked them up in recent years and they haven’t done very well in life, which I’m not particularly ashamed to admit pleases me.
> 
> I completely believe this man. Especially since his story was backed up by witnesses. I can’t even imagine how hard it was in junior high in that time period to have the last name of Gay.


That was an emotional story and I tend to believe the man who confronted him would remember EXACTLY who abused him that way, 35 or even 75 years later.
Assuming it's true, the superintendent's reaction is indicative of why he was confronted after all these years.
He was given a chance to apologize and show that a real man owns up to his mistakes, especially the worst ones.
But he didn't.
Instead he denied it and blew him off.
That means he's still the same bully boy, a coward, deep inside.

Kudos to Mr. Barrett.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

no really said:


> So you would prefer the child was physically abused a bit more by older children. When a child is in school there should not be any way they are abused by others or staff that would suspend the child for being abused by others. That might be a pathway to some serious issues mentally.


Nope, never said such a thing. 
I agree with a safe environment. Private schools are fine also. Although private schools have their issues also. Hopefully the problems will not arise again since their are limited schools to transfer to I suspect. The parents dealing with the problem how they see fit is fine also. The child still needs to learn how to deal with life’s issues and from the information provided its not happening. More issues to come no doubt.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> Nope, never said such a thing.
> I agree with a safe environment. Private schools are fine also. Although private schools have their issues also. Hopefully the problems will not arise again since their are limited schools to transfer to I suspect. The parents dealing with the problem how they see fit is fine also. The child still needs to learn how to deal with life’s issues and from the information provided its not happening. More issues to come no doubt.


I would expect that No Really only provided the information pertinent to the topic at hand and didn’t think she needed to justify to a poster here how the child was being raised beyond that and what steps the parents have taken to prepare their child for life.

Perhaps she could put you in contact with the lucky parents so they can assure you that they are doing a good job and you can offer your expert services and advice?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> I would expect that No Really only provided the information pertinent to the topic at hand and didn’t think she needed to justify to a poster here how the child was being raised beyond that and what steps the parents have taken to prepare their child for life.
> 
> Perhaps she could put you in contact with the lucky parents so they can assure you that they are doing a good job and you can offer your expert services and advice?


Thanks, you expressed my thoughts exactly. Suffice it to say the parents are more intent on seeing the child is able to receive a good education than be physically abused. They are pleased with the new school and the level of staff involvement.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Redlands Okie said:


> Nope, never said such a thing.
> I agree with a safe environment. Private schools are fine also. Although private schools have their issues also. Hopefully the problems will not arise again since their are limited schools to transfer to I suspect. The parents dealing with the problem how they see fit is fine also. The child still needs to learn how to deal with life’s issues and from the information provided its not happening. More issues to come no doubt.





Lisa in WA said:


> I would expect that No Really only provided the information pertinent to the topic at hand and didn’t think she needed to justify to a poster here how the child was being raised beyond that and what steps the parents have taken to prepare their child for life.
> 
> Perhaps she could put you in contact with the lucky parents so they can assure you that they are doing a good job and you can offer your expert services and advice?



It seems you missed a line. “The parents dealing with the problem how they see fit is fine also.”

I did not ask for more information. I would think it would be almost impossible to convey such information. A person would have to be there first hand to have the information needed. Lots of factors involved. I just find it interesting that the solution being ADVERTISED was “avoidance”.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Redlands Okie said:


> It seems you missed a line. “The parents dealing with the problem how they see fit is fine also.”
> 
> I did not ask for more information. I would think it would be almost impossible to convey such information. A person would have to be there first hand to have the information needed. Lots of factors involved. I just find it interesting that the solution being ADVERTISED was “avoidance”.


Interesting conclusion drawn. People all to often base their reactions on only personal experience. The parents avoided physical violence committed against the child by older, physically stronger children. And they did attempt to handle the situation including the child involved but it escalated. 

Basically situations are not always at the same level. 

Let me ask you how would you advise a child to handle being physically bullied? Not talking about the usual playground name calling but physical attacks.=


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

no really said:


> Friend of mine pulled her child from public school and enrolled him in private. It's expensive but as she said worth it! Her child was bullied repeatedly in full view of teachers, they did nothing but tell the child to not go around the bullies. After going through all the myriad steps to bring attention including school board nothing was accomplished but to kick the can down the road.
> 
> The child was suspended as were the bullies. The schools explanation was zero tolerance and her child was involved. Some schools are not doing their jobs in protecting children. IMHO


That happened to my son too after her finally fought back. Bush was president and terrorist threat was top of mind. The even went so far as to allude to that word without saying it directly. He had to have mandatory phsych evaluation. Tax payer paid as they wouldn't let me pick one. 

The only bright side was the bully who went to the nurse's office with a busted lip never bothered him again.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Redlands Okie said:


> Ok so now what happens when this child who has not learned to deal with some of the unpleasant parts of life is a grown adult ? Money does not fix many things in life.


That's ok. He can just come here and learn that.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

What about the bully that stomps a hole in your kids ass when he tries to stand up to him ?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> That happened to my son too after her finally fought back. Bush was president and terrorist threat was top of mind. The even went so far as to allude to that word without saying it directly. He had to have mandatory phsych evaluation. Tax payer paid as they wouldn't let me pick one.
> 
> The only bright side was the bully who went to the nurse's office with a busted lip never bothered him again.


Busted lip gets a bullies attention! And it would probably solve the problem if this child was capable of taking on this particular group. It would be kinda like an elderly person punching it out with a group of gang members.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Redlands Okie said:


> It seems you missed a line. “The parents dealing with the problem how they see fit is fine also.”
> 
> I did not ask for more information. I would think it would be almost impossible to convey such information. A person would have to be there first hand to have the information needed. Lots of factors involved. I just find it interesting that the solution being ADVERTISED was “avoidance”.


I feel certain that everyone involved is relieved to know that you’re fine with how the parents choose to deal with the situation. Crisis averted.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

oneraddad said:


> What about the bully that stomps a hole in your kids ass when he tries to stand up to him ?


Yes, like the above situation where a child is being bullied by older kids.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

oneraddad said:


> What about the bully that stomps a hole in your kids ass when he tries to stand up to him ?


Remember there are TWO options, "fight, OR, flight". And, don't underestimate the value of surprise in future retaliations. There are always options.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

This kid tried to bully my son that was a state wrestler by shooting him with a BB gun, Chris ran up and took the gun away and shot the kid with it. His dad came to my door complaining.... HAHAHA

That didn't turn out like he planned


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I don’t think a lot of you have any idea what it’s like to be bullied severely every day.

I was the new kid at school every year and at one school I literally had to fight for my life every day.
I was in the hospital for times within the first month.

Believe me I did my very best to kill the bully. 
And no I don’t mean that I wanted to hurt him a lot I mean I wanted to kill him. 
So yeah I can understand the frustration of some of the school shooters.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> I don’t think a lot of you have any idea what it’s like to be bullied severely every day.
> 
> I was the new kid at school every year and at one school I literally had to fight for my life every day.
> I was in the hospital for times within the first month.
> ...


Why didn't you shoot up the place?


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

no really said:


> Busted lip gets a bullies attention! And it would probably solve the problem if this child was capable of taking on this particular group. It would be kinda like an elderly person punching it out with a group of gang members.


Yeah his was a one on one deal. He had went to the principal several times. Nothing done. I want even aware of it until he hit him Easter week. The principal told me he had come to him back before Thanksgiving the first time with a complaint.

That's when I came unglued on the principal. My son told me he didn't come to me because he thought at first that it was something he did to provoke it. Then he just got tired of it and snapped. It's the only time I am aware of he ever hit anyone. 

Being bullied can be very taxing on a person's mind.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

HDRider said:


> Why didn't you shoot up the place?


I realize you're responding to a specific comment but it is worth mentioning that way more kids commit suicide because of bullying than shoot up schools.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

wr said:


> I realize you're responding to a specific comment but it is worth mentioning that way more kids commit suicide because of bullying than shoot up schools.


My question was pushing the limit, asking why he did not commit suicide seemed a bit too much. Even I have limits.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

mreynolds said:


> Yeah his was a one on one deal. He had went to the principal several times. Nothing done. I want even aware of it until he hit him Easter week. The principal told me he had come to him back before Thanksgiving the first time with a complaint.
> 
> That's when I came unglued on the principal. My son told me he didn't come to me because he thought at first that it was something he did to provoke it. Then he just got tired of it and snapped. It's the only time I am aware of he ever hit anyone.
> 
> Being bullied can be very taxing on a person's mind.


Love this. Reminds me of my dad. Way too many kids don’t have parents to go to bat for them.
I wish more teachers and principals could be proactive but I know of one that was.
My daughter was teased about her red hair in 8th grade by several boys in a covertly sexual way. Older teacher caught wind of it and asked my daughter and she confirmed. He had the four boys in a “meeting” and they all came out crying. They apologized to her and it never happened again. It didn’t even get far enough to involve parents. Why can’t more teachers be like that?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Lisa in WA said:


> Love this. Reminds me of my dad. Way too many kids don’t have parents to go to bat for them.
> I wish more teachers and principals could be proactive but I know of one that was.
> My daughter was teased about her red hair in 8th grade by several boys in a covertly sexual way. Older teacher caught wind of it and asked my daughter and she confirmed. He had the four boys in a “meeting” and they all came out crying. They apologized to her and it never happened again. It didn’t even get far enough to involve parents. *Why can’t more teachers be like that*?


I think they are plum worn out by the ill behaved. Teachers are in such an untenable, not to mention unenviable, position these days.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

HDRider said:


> I think they are plum worn out by the ill behaved. Teachers are in such an untenable, not to mention unenviable, position these days.


Probably so. Parents need to address these things head on. If I ever caught my kid bullying, it wouldn’t be pretty.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Lisa in WA said:


> Probably so. Parents need to address these things head on. If I ever caught my kid bullying, it wouldn’t be pretty.


I know you and I have very different perspectives, but I think we both agree that parents should bear the burden, or privilege in my mind, of raising good kids. You are right, my kids knew and understood bullying was wrong, along with about 8,000 other wrongs they learned growing up.

Where we may parts ways is how I believe the state, has curbed a parents rights of parenting, and the state has tried to assume too many of what I view as the parent's responsibilities.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

HDRider said:


> Why didn't you shoot up the place?


Two reasons
I wasnt mad at the whole place although in retrospect I should have been , if I had I would hVe only shot him 
And honestly because I didn’t have a gun. 

I did spend in a lot of hours trying to figure out how to kill him and not get in trouble for it it was obvious to me that he was being protected by the system and that I would pay for anything I did to him.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

HDRider said:


> My question was pushing the limit, asking why he did not commit suicide seemed a bit too much. Even I have limits.


I can understand why that might sound harsh. It just seemed like a good opportunity to add a bit of information.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lisa in WA said:


> Probably so. Parents need to address these things head on. If I ever caught my kid bullying, it wouldn’t be pretty.


And yet you don’t seem to have s problem being a bully on this site.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> And yet you don’t seem to have s problem being a bully on this site.


You think she is a bully?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

HDRider said:


> You think she is a bully?


Anyone who calls him out on his lies is a bully, in his fevered mind.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Lisa in WA said:


> Anyone who calls him out on his lies is a bully, in his fevered mind.


I know the type.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Lisa in WA said:


> Love this. Reminds me of my dad. Way too many kids don’t have parents to go to bat for them.
> I wish more teachers and principals could be proactive but I know of one that was.
> My daughter was teased about her red hair in 8th grade by several boys in a covertly sexual way. Older teacher caught wind of it and asked my daughter and she confirmed. He had the four boys in a “meeting” and they all came out crying. They apologized to her and it never happened again. It didn’t even get far enough to involve parents. Why can’t more teachers be like that?





HDRider said:


> I know you and I have very different perspectives, but I think we both agree that parents should bear the burden, or privilege in my mind, of raising good kids. You are right, my kids knew and understood bullying was wrong, along with about 8,000 other wrongs they learned growing up.
> 
> Where we may parts ways is how I believe the state, has curbed a parents rights of parenting, and the state has tried to assume too many of what I view as the parent's responsibilities.


That's basically it.
It used to be that kids were sent to school knowing they had better behave and be respectful or else.........there would be a spanking at school followed by another one when they got home.
That started to change in the last generation. Now the teachers and parents aren't respected, discipline is frowned upon or outright criminalized and the kids aren't taught that there are real life consequences for misbehaving.
The problem isn't new and neither is the solution, just a lack of will to set things right again.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

I think its correct that parents should be responsible in the raising of their children. Seems the problem is how to deal with those children and parents that do not have the same values. Some label such children as bullies at best.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> I think they are plum worn out by the ill behaved. Teachers are in such an untenable, not to mention unenviable, position these days.


I know that's right. I have some family that works in the school system. But in my case, what would have been wrong with giving me a call before if ever got to that point? It was documented for five or six months. How many principals have heard similar complaints from school shooters and sat on it for months?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

HDRider said:


> I know the type.


You mean the privaleged individual who resort to name calling when ever something doesn’t agree with their sheltered experience in life?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

So we want to go back to a time when parents, not schools, were responsible for teaching kids values by going back to a time when teachers could discipline and beat children to teach them the values of the teacher and school. Got it.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

mmoetc said:


> So we want to go back to a time when parents, not schools, were responsible for teaching kids values by going back to a time when teachers could discipline and beat children to teach them the values of the teacher and school. Got it.


Yes, why not.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> So we want to go back to a time when parents, not schools, were responsible for teaching kids values by going back to a time when teachers could discipline and beat children to teach them the values of the teacher and school. Got it.


Good, now let's stop talking and start doing.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> Good, now let's stop talking and start doing.





Redlands Okie said:


> Yes, why not.


Yep, instill your values by letting someone else beat theirs into your child. Makes perfect sense.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> Yep, instill your values by letting someone else beat theirs into your child. Makes perfect sense.


Yes, about as much sense as thinking that disciplining a child means "beating" them.
Nice try, but spinning to make a truth into lie works well with some people, just not me.

The simple truth is some of KNOW and have seen the results of the last 30 years of preventing the disciplining of children, they are disastrous.
The question is, how for down the road of destruction are YOU willing to go?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> Yes, about as much sense as thinking that disciplining a child means "beating" them.
> Nice try, but spinning to make a truth into lie works well with some people, just not me.
> 
> The simple truth is some of KNOW and have seen the results of the last 30 years of preventing the disciplining of children, they are disastrous.
> The question is, how for down the road of destruction are YOU willing to go?


In the past, in those halcyon days of yore, discipline did involve beating. Rulers, paddles, leather straps and other instruments were used to beat children. You responded with a glib answer to a post that included beating and now you object to its use as a descriptor. Maybe if you’d given the thoughtful answer first ....

Don’t like the disciplinary policies at your child’s school? Get involved. Work to change them. Don’t like the values instilled by the school. They’re your kids. As you’ve lectured others the responsibility to raise them and instill those values is yours. And that responsibilty never stops.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> In the past, in those halcyon days of yore, discipline did involve beating. Rulers, paddles, leather straps and other instruments were used to beat children. You responded with a glib answer to a post that included beating and now you object to its use as a descriptor. Maybe if you’d given the thoughtful answer first ....
> 
> Don’t like the disciplinary policies at your child’s school? Get involved. Work to change them. Don’t like the values instilled by the school. They’re your kids. As you’ve lectured others the responsibility to raise them and instill those values is yours. And that responsibilty never stops.


Nope, I don't bother to "get involved" and talk with idiots, like the superintendent in the OP.
If he had gotten his lip busted at the time he was bullying that kid back in high school, he probably would have gotten his attitude straightened out - quickly.
But there is a time for talk and time for action. If you don't know the difference or don't accept that truth, that's your problem, not mine.
Time is too precious to waste on fools.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

mmoetc said:


> Yep, instill your values by letting someone else beat theirs into your child. Makes perfect sense.


If you properly instill your values into your child then there will be no issues in school. Nothing to be concerned about. The children can learn that those in authority, parents, teachers, or those in the legal system have some influence. They can learn to follow the rules or be punished by a variety of methods. What’s best, learn as a child or learn as a adult ? Time out or a spanking in school or fines or jail time as a adult. Just broad generalizations here I hope you understand. 

Unless your values are not within the norms of your school system or legal system. Guess thats a different subject.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Redlands Okie said:


> If you properly instill your values into your child then there will be no issues in school. Nothing to be concerned about. The children can learn that those in authority, parents, teachers, or those in the legal system have some influence. They can learn to follow the rules or be punished by a variety of methods. What’s best, learn as a child or learn as a adult ? Time out or a spanking in school or fines or jail time as a adult. Just broad generalizations here I hope you understand.
> 
> Unless your values are not within the norms of your school system or legal system. Guess thats a different subject.


No, your last statement is the exact subject we’re talking about. 

We have a variety of people here who have expressed the opinion that the proper way to combat bullying is with physical violence, including one who took an improvised weapon to another student. Should those students be applauded for their actions and taking the values taught them at home to heart or punished, even beaten, for the same? This whole discussion is about differing values. 

If we want to take the “we have to teach kids to toughen up” argument to it’s extreme we should be encouraging bullying in schools instead of trying to eliminate it, should we not. How will kids ever learn to cope with something they never face? Why punish the bully? They’re only doing a public service. Or should the school instill their value that it’s wrong to bully?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> Nope, I don't bother to "get involved" and talk with idiots, like the superintendent in the OP.
> If he had gotten his lip busted at the time he was bullying that kid back in high school, he probably would have gotten his attitude straightened out - quickly.
> But there is a time for talk and time for action. If you don't know the difference or don't accept that truth, that's your problem, not mine.
> Time is too precious to waste on fools.


Nice speech but little to do with what we were discussing. I know we all remember the bully we stood up to and how they reformed and everyone became great friends. But the reality is many of the bullied never had the courage to stand up and harbored such resentments and fears which affected their lives or stood up and were beaten down. Ah, the good old days.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

mmoetc said:


> No, your last statement is the exact subject we’re talking about.
> 
> We have a variety of people here who have expressed the opinion that the proper way to combat bullying is with physical violence, including one who took an improvised weapon to another student. Should those students be applauded for their actions and taking the values taught them at home to heart or punished, even beaten, for the same? This whole discussion is about differing values.
> 
> If we want to take the “we have to teach kids to toughen up” argument to it’s extreme we should be encouraging bullying in schools instead of trying to eliminate it, should we not. How will kids ever learn to cope with something they never face? Why punish the bully? They’re only doing a public service. Or should the school instill their value that it’s wrong to bully?


Seems to me the bully is the one that’s not acting within societal norms. Likely his parents are part of the issue in some fashion. Now comes the issue. Does the school employees solve the problem, does some other student solve the problem, or is the problem student allowed to continue and students and teachers suffer. The students sooner or later are going to learn life is not fair but it would be nice if positive actions could be demonstrated in school. 

It would seem the parents are not solving the issues and the school system ignores it and everyone suffers. I do not have the answer. I do suspect there is not a perfect answer but more of a answer that has the least side affects. Seems everyone wants a perfect response to the bully and that is not realistic. Not everyone is going to be happy. The bully and parents getting counseling and guidance then rapidly moving on to sterner measures is needed and not happening.

Not sure the best way to say this but it also seems many in life are having a hard time understanding there are consequences to wrong doing in life. And the consequences are not always fair or correct. Having to handle a bully in school or ignoring, running from a police officer often times ends with incorrectly handled results. Best learn early on and realize there are side affects one has to live with that are not always fair.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Redlands Okie said:


> Seems to me the bully is the one that’s not acting within societal norms. Likely his parents are part of the issue in some fashion. Now comes the issue. Does the school employees solve the problem, does some other student solve the problem, or is the problem student allowed to continue and students and teachers suffer. The students sooner or later are going to learn life is not fair but it would be nice if positive actions could be demonstrated in school.
> 
> It would seem the parents are not solving the issues and the school system ignores it and everyone suffers. I do not have the answer. I do suspect there is not a perfect answer but more of a answer that has the least side affects. Seems everyone wants a perfect response to the bully and that is not realistic. Not everyone is going to be happy. The bully and parents getting counseling and guidance then rapidly moving on to sterner measures is needed and not happening.
> 
> Not sure the best way to say this but it also seems many in life are having a hard time understanding there are consequences to wrong doing in life. And the consequences are not always fair or correct. Having to handle a bully in school or ignoring, running from a police officer often times ends with incorrectly handled results. Best learn early on and realize there are side affects one has to live with that are not always fair.


Looking at the leadership in our country today would lead me to the opposite conclusion about bullying being outside societal norms. Reading many of the posters here opining that bullying is a normal part of life and the best way to teach kids to deal with it in adulthood is to have them “toughen up” or fight back brings me to the same conclusion that bullying is somehow outside of societal norms. If it were so far outside the norm why is so much attention paid with how to prevent it and cope with it?

I’ll agree that there probably are no perfect answers and that people need to learn that actions have consequences. But I don’t think those answers include one student beating another with a tree branch or school authorities beating their version of what’s right into children. You seem to differ.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Lisa in WA said:


> Since you never really forget your bully’s names I looked them up in recent years and they haven’t done very well in life, which I’m not particularly ashamed to admit pleases me.


I can smile with you in your moment of schadenfreude!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> And yet you don’t seem to have s problem being a bully on this site.


What happened to the "let's have an *all nice *GC"?

You just proved my point that even those asking for change don't lead by example.
Just drop all the pretense and be honest with yourselves.

Honesty is "nicer" than the constant denial.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> mmoetc said: ↑
> So we want to go back to a time when parents, not schools, were responsible for teaching kids values by going back to a time when teachers could discipline and beat children to teach them the values of the teacher and school. Got it.


There was a time when those values were more in alignment.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> Nice speech but little to do with what we were discussing. I know we all remember the bully we stood up to and how they reformed and everyone became great friends. But the reality is many of the bullied never had the courage to stand up and harbored such resentments and fears which affected their lives or stood up and were beaten down. Ah, the good old days.


That may very well be the reality of today. We were taught to stand up to bullies and meet the problem head on, that way we didn't have those problems affecting the rest of our lives.
Why not use the tried and true method that works?
The other side of that is, if your parents got a call from the school that it was *their* child that was the bully, it was understood what would happen when little Johnny got home. Ask me how I know, cuz I saw that "reality" from both ends.
That's what I'm talking about. Once upon a time when school kids weren't acting right, the school AND the parents were on the same page to set those kids back on the right path. All the adults didn't tolerate it and the kids knew it and knew the consequences were certain.



mmoetc said:


> Looking at the leadership in our country today would lead me to the opposite conclusion about bullying being outside societal norms. Reading many of the posters here opining that bullying is a normal part of life and the best way to teach kids to deal with it in adulthood is to have them “toughen up” or fight back brings me to the same conclusion that bullying is somehow outside of societal norms. If it were so far outside the norm why is so much attention paid with how to prevent it and cope with it?
> 
> I’ll agree that there probably are no perfect answers and that people need to learn that actions have consequences. But I don’t think those answers include one student beating another with a tree branch or school authorities beating their version of what’s right into children. You seem to differ.


Well, you do whatever works. Some kids only need a talking to and others need their backsides heated up.
Some bullies only need to see a little resistance and some need a fat lip.
What isn't needed is a blind eye to the problem.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> Nice speech but little to do with what we were discussing.


I find that ironic coming from you.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

Getting back to the original thread, I have no doubt that the man who accused the Superintendent of the School had the correct guy who bullied him. Things tend to stick in a kid's mind - especially who was mean to them.

I find it ironic all this bully "prevention" programs the schools have. Our local school has them as well, and all the administrators in the school will tell you that the school does NOT tolerate bullying. Really? Then why is it you can talk to all kinds of kids that have been bullied, but nothing is ever done with the bully?

And, some kids who were bullies in school are still bullies as adults. 

And that includes school directors. One of the local school directors was a bully in school. (My wife told me stories of how he belittled and teased kids in her school - even herself.). He hasn't changed at all, and in addition to being a school director, he is a teacher in a another school district!!

Being bullied seems to be a common denominator in the majority of school shootings. I find it ironic that most schools had no trouble protesting earlier this month demanding the politicians that stricter gun laws are needed, but yet how many of those kids who protested are bullies themselves?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Tell me how to stand up to a bully and teach him a lesson when he is twice your size with martial art training ?
Kind of a lot to ask of a little kid.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Tell me how to stand up to a bully and teach him a lesson when he is twice your size with martial art training ?
> Kind of a lot to ask of a little kid.


That is a lot to ask of a kid, but the answer should be simple for the adult he/she comes to assuming the bully has a sensei.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> That is a lot to ask of a kid, but the answer should be simple for the adult he/she comes to assuming the bully has a sensei.


But how does having the child run to tell an adult teach the child anything about standing up for themselves? Doesn’t running to tell the adult turn the child into a snowflake constantly seeking protection from the realities of life and a safe space? How will they ever learn to stand on their own two feet as an adult if they don’t do it as a child? Isn’t that the point of all the “i beat up the bully” stories. How will the buttercups ever toughen up if adults always come to their rescue?

I think we need more bullying to raise kids just as tough as they were in the good old days.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> But how does having the child run to tell an adult teach the child anything about standing up for themselves? Doesn’t running to tell the adult turn the child into a snowflake constantly seeking protection from the realities of life and a safe space? How will they ever learn to stand on their own two feet as an adult if they don’t do it as a child? Isn’t that the point of all the “i beat up the bully” stories. How will the buttercups ever toughen up if adults always come to their rescue?
> 
> I think we need more bullying to raise kids just as tough as they were in the good old days.


The question was very specific and was obviously meant to take the self defense tactic to an extreme in hopes that someone would fail to give a logical answer.
Going to an adult is NOT the first and best response for all situations and should someone insist that answer can NEVER be an option, then my original answer would still apply.
If that child went to the same sensei and asked for training to subdue that bully twice his size, that would be the perfect place to go since martial arts are taught with just that point in mind.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

But, but, but......what if the bullied kids took guns to school?? Wouldn't that protect them from bullies??


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> The question was very specific and was obviously meant to take the self defense tactic to an extreme in hopes that someone would fail to give a logical answer.
> Going to an adult is NOT the first and best response for all situations and should someone insist that answer can NEVER be an option, then my original answer would still apply.
> If that child went to the same sensei and asked for training to subdue that bully twice his size, that would be the perfect place to go since martial arts are taught with just that point in mind.


But you didn’t specifically tell the youngster to go to the sensei to learn self defense. Your response could just as easily been read to mean the adult the young person ran to should go talk to the bully’s sensei about the bully’s behavior. Yes, we should all know exactly what you meant not read what you said.

Leave the adults out of it. None of the “I beat up the bully” story tellers brought them in and look how well they’ve all turned out. They should be our role models. More bullying and more fights. I’m sure that’s all we need to solve these problems which never existed in the past and will result in a new generation of tough, relisient adults.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> But you didn’t specifically tell the youngster to go to the sensei to learn self defense. Your response could just as easily been read to mean the adult the young person ran to should go talk to the bully’s sensei about the bully’s behavior. Yes, we should all know exactly what you meant not read what you said.
> 
> Leave the adults out of it. None of the “I beat up the bully” story tellers brought them in and look how well they’ve all turned out. They should be our role models. More bullying and more fights. I’m sure that’s all we need to solve these problems which never existed in the past and will result in a new generation of tough, relisient adults.


Yep, that's right, it could have been taken either way. The poster asked a question and I tried to give the best answer based on the circumstances.
It's called discernment and wisdom, things we should teach our children.
There's an old army expression, "When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail."
There's another old Italian expression which says, "If there is no solution, there can be be no problem."
THAT one takes a minute to understand.
But ultimately if you seek the answer to problem and find it, try doing it instead of insisting there ARE no solutions.

Why not embrace good advice instead of trying to pin it down as one size fits all?
Is it *only* teaching a child to use his fists that is the answer?
Is it *only* teaching a child to be kind and respectful that is the answer?
Is it *only* teaching a child to go to an adult that is the answer?
All of that is the job of the parent to teach, but is that all we are supposed to teach them?


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## catsboy (May 14, 2015)

My two cents - I confess, I was a school bully at 13 yo I was 6'3" and 200lbs. Nobody gave this bully a fat lip. I was in a gang and the leader of the gang, got there by beating the crap out of the guy who was the biggest bully in the school when I got there. My dad was a fighter growing up during the depression and taught me to do the same. I also loved sports and went out for the football team, I was the youngest kid in the history of my high school to start a varsity football game and only the third freshman to make the team. That's when things changed in my life. One day one of the seniors on the team sat me down and explained to me the error in my ways and he did in a very unusual manner. He told me about how football players got to date the cheerleaders and not the ******* girls I had been hanging around with. Kinda like an upgrade in my social status, but to get this upgrade I had to give up my ******* fighting ways. I took his advice and started dating one of the girls from the dance team. Started hanging out with the jocks, stopped bulling and fighting. The kids I bullied were a little reticent at first but they eventually came around and allowed me to apologize and in some cases we became friends. When I raised my children I was able to teach by my example and none of my boys were guilty of any bulling at least I never heard of any. Reading this post as brought back memories that make me feel ashamed of what I did and how I acted so I felt this was a good time to get this off my chest. I am a reformed bully and I not proud of the fact that I did way more than my fair share of bullying.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> Yep, that's right, it could have been taken either way. The poster asked a question and I tried to give the best answer based on the circumstances.
> It's called discernment and wisdom, things we should teach our children.
> There's an old army expression, "When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail."
> There's another old Italian expression which says, "If there is no solution, there can be be no problem."
> ...


It isn’t my supposition that teaching kids that beating up the bully is the only answer. It isn’t my supposition that by talking about having children not use certain words against each other or going to adults to resolve such things leads to snowflakes, weakness and the inability to cope with adversity. I’m just embracing it.

Maybe you should speak out as vehemently against those who do advocate such one size fits all solutions and lecture them. Or learn to understand sarcasm.


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

I'm pretty sure I know a woman who faked sarcasm. A lot.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

But never with you?


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## Clem (Apr 12, 2016)

I'm a youknock.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mmoetc said:


> But how does having the child run to tell an adult teach the child anything about standing up for themselves? Doesn’t running to tell the adult turn the child into a snowflake constantly seeking protection from the realities of life and a safe space? How will they ever learn to stand on their own two feet as an adult if they don’t do it as a child? Isn’t that the point of all the “i beat up the bully” stories. How will the buttercups ever toughen up if adults always come to their rescue?
> 
> I think we need more bullying to raise kids just as tough as they were in the good old days.


 I don’t see how dead or broken kids will toughen them up. 
And how would a kid even know what a sensi was ?
Worse yet this kid went to the ones that were supposed to protect him and got told to quit bothering the bully. So why would he go to another adult ?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> It isn’t my supposition that teaching kids that beating up the bully is the only answer. It isn’t my supposition that by talking about having children not use certain words against each other or going to adults to resolve such things leads to snowflakes, weakness and the inability to cope with adversity. I’m just embracing it.
> 
> Maybe you should speak out as vehemently against those who do advocate such one size fits all solutions and lecture them. Or learn to understand sarcasm.


Thanks for the advice.......I already have.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> I don’t see how dead or broken kids will toughen them up.
> And how would a kid even know what a sensi was ?
> Worse yet this kid went to the ones that were supposed to protect him and got told to quit bothering the bully. So why would he go to another adult ?


Part of a child's education is teaching them not to give up on finding a solution.
What advice did YOU give that kid?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

This is a complex problem. I think most people have been bullied. Those that haven't been bullied, don't see it. Those that had minor bullying, see one solution. Those that experienced constant bullying will see other solutions. When we consider proper punishment by teachers or parents, we assume that we'll know more than one child's word against another's. We also assume our kind, caring, well adjusted child is like that all the time and parents can somehow know what their child thinks and does when away from home.
A degree of bullying will make some children stronger. That same thing would break the spirit of other children. There is no set solution.
When we talk about letting teachers slap a child's buns with a ruler, we get the division between parents that spank and those that yell. I think there are teachers that shouldn't whack a student on the rear, they are bullies or act out of anger. But there are some that should be able to do that. In reality, a paddled bottom, often early in the school year, stops the activity for the rest of the year. So, it isn't teachers beating students every day, at all. But 40 years ago, we experienced a shift. Parents became protectors of their children over all others, all the time. Any reports of bad behavior from the teacher, pitted the family against the school. When the teacher failed to back down, the parents escalated the issue to all their friends, social media and loud speeches at the school board meetings. Easiest solution was to undermine the teacher.

It is human nature that creates "push comes to shove". We want to right most wrongs. Bullies are the wrong and we want it to stop. The line of "toughen up, kid." is different for each child. Only the child knows how many bullies and to what degree the abuse. Schools and parents are faced with conflicting reports.
How far "push comes to shove" goes varies, too. In the inner city, too often, a simple minor dispute escalates to a shove, a fist fight, a stabbing, a drive-by shooting and ends with a murder. In my community, the school parking lot fight was where it ended. But I do know of a school fight that resulted in an unexpected death.
There is also the normal "pecking order" that goes on. Each student trying to find their place in the group. Eventually, everyone knows where their status is. Boys tend to do it physically, while girls form exclusionary groups.
School shootings are evil, always. But that said, like the threat of a teacher with a paddle, a student that understands that acts of bullying could provoke an unexpected school shooting with him as the first victim.
A 80 year old Veterinarian, in his Clinic, was confronted by a robber. The Lab Tech stepped into another room, out of sight. The old guy, with his back to the large, young thug, reached into his lab coat, grabbed his pistol, turned around and shot the guy in the head.
A 75 year old guy, involved in a road rage incident, pulled up to a stop light. A large, angry young man, pulled up, jumped out of his truck and confronted the old guy. He threatened to beat up the old guy, reached into the driver's window. The old guy shot through his door, killing the guy.
A 70 year old retired cop was confronted in a darkened theatre by a large, young man, standing facing him. When the young man hit him in the face with a box of popcorn, the disoriented old guy, shot the guy in the chest, killing him.
In each of these situations, no one offered to intercede. No one wanted to get involved. The abused was made to be alone. Two of these three old guys were convicted of murder. It is my hope that events like these will make old men seem like less of a target for bullying.
Those jurors and I disagree, but bullying can be reduced when there is a real threat of retaliation.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

farmrbrown said:


> Part of a child's education is teaching them not to give up on finding a solution.
> What advice did YOU give that kid?


I was that kid. 
I guess my advice was fight for your life. 
Whenever I recovered enough to go back to school I would grab a baseball bat ,Flagstaff or anything else I could use as a weapon and do my best to kill the child in question.
Luckily we soon moved again but I did sustain spine and internal damage that has affected my life to this point.


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## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

I never do understand why the schools do not discipline the “bullies”. They zero tolerance for so many other things, why not bullying? There are so many issues with this topic. I know that bullying has come to the forefront because of social media. It’s not just about picking on a single kid at school; now they post things online, spread things through social media, video-taping, pictures, etc. My boys were raised the way I was raised. CONSEQENCES! I never wanted my parents to get a call from the school. My mother put the fear of God into us. We knew if we were disciplined at school, it was worse at home. Nope, we were not abused, we had conseqences for our action. In our society today, I see little of that. I have friends with middle and high school aged kids. If the school calls home, the parents have the attitude that “little Johnny’s teachers just don’t like him”...yeah, no....Little Johnny is a spoiled brat with absolutely NO sense of right and wrong. Too much parent/child friendship and not enough parent-child relationship. Too much Little Johnny at age 12 MUST have an I-phone and not enough Little Johnny has enough parental controls on his phone that all he can do is call home when he needs a ride. Of course, my younger friends tell me that things are different in this time and place then when I was raising my boys. Yep, the difference is my parents didn’t try to reason with me, they spanked my butt. End of story


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> I was that kid.
> * I guess my advice was fight for your life.*
> Whenever I recovered enough to go back to school I would grab a baseball bat ,Flagstaff or anything else I could use as a weapon and do my best to kill the child in question.
> Luckily we soon moved again but I did sustain spine and internal damage that has affected my life to this point.


Then you gave yourself the best advice that a kid could give at the time. It's a shame that no one else had anything better to offer to you back then, but neither of us have a time machine and can change the past.
I didn't want to go as far and say, "Pick up a baseball bat, wait around the corner when he's alone and give him something to remember you by" but that is the gist of defending yourself.
It won't be what they say in a courtroom, but that's why there are only 2 witnesses and one of them shall remain silent. 
Look, life is tough and seldom fair. The strong pick on the weak, that's never changed. It's also never changed that every dog has his day and I would find you blameless if you took out that kid's kneecaps and made him crawl home that day.
I have to question the inaction of the adults at that time who didn't offer you better ideas and protection, and I'm sorry to say, that includes your parents.
That was the whole point of this thread.
We understand that kids are immature and still learning in this world, they have an excuse.
The adults do not.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

farmrbrown said:


> Then you gave yourself the best advice that a kid could give at the time. It's a shame that no one else had anything better to offer to you back then, but neither of us have a time machine and can change the past.
> I didn't want to go as far and say, "Pick up a baseball bat, wait around the corner when he's alone and give him something to remember you by" but that is the gist of defending yourself.
> It won't be what they say in a courtroom, but that's why there are only 2 witnesses and one of them shall remain silent.
> Look, life is tough and seldom fair. The strong pick on the weak, that's never changed. It's also never changed that every dog has his day and I would find you blameless if you took out that kid's kneecaps and made him crawl home that day.
> ...


 Do you really think an ambush is an appropriate thing to do? Maybe a bat to the head would be even better?????????? If we expect kids to handle the problem with advice like this from adults, we have a very serious problem.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

catsboy said:


> My two cents - I confess, I was a school bully at 13 yo I was 6'3" and 200lbs. Nobody gave this bully a fat lip. I was in a gang and the leader of the gang, got there by beating the crap out of the guy who was the biggest bully in the school when I got there. My dad was a fighter growing up during the depression and taught me to do the same. I also loved sports and went out for the football team, I was the youngest kid in the history of my high school to start a varsity football game and only the third freshman to make the team. That's when things changed in my life. One day one of the seniors on the team sat me down and explained to me the error in my ways and he did in a very unusual manner. He told me about how football players got to date the cheerleaders and not the ******* girls I had been hanging around with. Kinda like an upgrade in my social status, but to get this upgrade I had to give up my ******* fighting ways. I took his advice and started dating one of the girls from the dance team. Started hanging out with the jocks, stopped bulling and fighting. The kids I bullied were a little reticent at first but they eventually came around and allowed me to apologize and in some cases we became friends. When I raised my children I was able to teach by my example and none of my boys were guilty of any bulling at least I never heard of any. Reading this post as brought back memories that make me feel ashamed of what I did and how I acted so I felt this was a good time to get this off my chest. I am a reformed bully and I not proud of the fact that I did way more than my fair share of bullying.


Did you play football beyond HS?

Good story...


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Wanda said:


> Do you really think an ambush is an appropriate thing to do? Maybe a bat to the head would be even better?????????? If we expect kids to handle the problem with advice like this from adults, we have a very serious problem.



I didn't think my answer was ambivalent.
If a "kid" twice my size and with martial arts training, intentionally damaged my internal organs and spine, I can unequivocally state that kid better darn well look over his shoulder the rest of his days for an ambush with a baseball bat.
I would not aim for his head since that is lethal but his days of pain free sports using his knees are over.
Is that plain enough for ya?
Would you rather that kid continue to hurt others, or put a stop to it?

Now, since you've decided to take a hypothetical, specific Q & A out of context to denigrate the standard advice that bullies must be stood up to, I'll put things back in context again.

When the poster asked, I said to contact the bully's sensei and see if it was handled properly.
Failing that, I said the boy's parents should have taken immediate action.
Neither one would have involved the adults attacking him with a bat BTW, in case that wasn't obvious. 

When the poster responded with *more* information that he didn't know what else to do, the law of the jungle kicks in, that is you do what you have to, to survive.
A bully like that is a predator and as we all know on HomesteadingToday, if a predator is in the midst of your flock, loving it and kind words aren't the solution.
You don't pick up a rifle and shoot a kid either, but somewhere in between there IS an action that needs to take place and somewhere there is an adult that CAN instill some common sense and discipline to the situation.
THAT was my advice, but if good advice isn't followed, the laws of nature WILL take their course.


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## oneraddad (Jul 20, 2010)

So you teach your kids to take the law into their own hands and that violence is the answer, interesting.


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## catsboy (May 14, 2015)

HDRider said:


> Did you play football beyond HS?
> 
> Good story...


I received 3 scholarships, East Tn State, VMI and Shepherd College in West Va. My Dad who was a big influence in my life dropped out of school in the 9th grade to join the Army, then went on to become a millionaire through owning a truck repair and parts business, had no use for college and thought it was overrated. His was a firm believer in military service and so I joined the Marine Corp 10 days after high school graduation. I did play on the Marine team at Cherry Pt while stationed there, it was 7 man football due to not having a lot of guys. We won the base championship and we were the core of an 11 man team that played against Army and Navy teams (not the Academy teams) but base teams that they formed. We lost to the Army team in the inter - service games. Than I shipped out to Japan and never played again.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

catsboy said:


> I received 3 scholarships, East Tn State, VMI and Shepherd College in West Va. My Dad who was a big influence in my life dropped out of school in the 9th grade to join the Army, then went on to become a millionaire through owning a truck repair and parts business, had no use for college and thought it was overrated. His was a firm believer in military service and so I joined the Marine Corp 10 days after high school graduation. I did play on the Marine team at Cherry Pt while stationed there, it was 7 man football due to not having a lot of guys. We won the base championship and we were the core of an 11 man team that played against Army and Navy teams (not the Academy teams) but base teams that they formed. We lost to the Army team in the inter - service games. Than I shipped out to Japan and never played again.


Our youngest daughter graduated from VMI in 2007, and went into the Air Force as a 2nd Lt.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> I didn't think my answer was ambivalent.
> If a "kid" twice my size and with martial arts training, intentionally damaged my internal organs and spine, I can unequivocally state that kid better darn well look over his shoulder the rest of his days for an ambush with a baseball bat.
> I would not aim for his head since that is lethal but his days of pain free sports using his knees are over.
> Is that plain enough for ya?
> ...


I think what was plain was your first comment that there would only be two witnesses to the event and that one would remain silent. Hard to see how a knee injury would ensure silence. But it’s your story. Evolve it as you will.


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## catsboy (May 14, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Our youngest daughter graduated from VMI in 2007, and went into the Air Force as a 2nd Lt.


Congratulations to both you and her. I take it she did not make a carrier out of her service? I sometimes look back on my choice and think about the fact that I could have gone to VMI then went into the Marines as a officer.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

catsboy said:


> Congratulations to both you and her. I take it she did not make a carrier out of her service? I sometimes look back on my choice and think about the fact that I could have gone to VMI then went into the Marines as a officer.


Thank you. No, she was four and out. After deploying to the Mortuary service at Dover, and all it meant to her, she said the AF was just like any other job so she didn't re-up. 

She was nominated to West Point, but wasn't accepted. She had full ride scholarships to two upstate NY schools, but decided on VMI where she had to take some loans for her room and board. She doesn't regret the decision.


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## catsboy (May 14, 2015)

I was an Avionics repairman on A6E Intruders and I felt the same way. It was like any other job. For the most part going in fixing airplanes then going back to the barracks after work. My favorite thing was that I got to travel around the world for free.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Bullies doing their thing at school repeatedly is a result of school employees failing to do their job. School employees repeatedly failing to do their job is a result of parents allowing it by failing to do their job of providing for their children. 
If a child is repeatedly mistreated then the parents are a part of the problem. If the adults can not solve the issues then what do you expect children to do.
Best find a solution. Preferably by the rules but if need be, whatever it takes. It’s just that simple.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Wanda said:


> Do you really think an ambush is an appropriate thing to do? Maybe a bat to the head would be even better?????????? If we expect kids to handle the problem with advice like this from adults, we have a very serious problem.


Well just exactly what would you have advised?
For what its worth I did ambush him with a bat more than once.
I think I was pretty clear after a certain point I was trying to kill him simply to stay alive.
Thank god the US Army decided it was time for me to live somewhere else. Or I might have eventually been one of those old time school killers everyone says didn't exist.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

AmericanStand said:


> Well just exactly what would you have advised?
> For what its worth I did ambush him with a bat more than once.
> I think I was pretty clear after a certain point I was trying to kill him simply to stay alive.
> Thank god the US Army decided it was time for me to live somewhere else. Or I might have eventually been one of those old time school killers everyone says didn't exist.



If you had no one else to help you out of this situation, what was plan B if the bat did not work? Were you living on your own and isolated from friends and family? It is hard to respond to posts with very little actual information.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Tell me how to stand up to a bully and teach him a lesson when he is twice your size with martial art training ?
> Kind of a lot to ask of a little kid.


Not really. Little kids often stand up to bigger kids. Yep, sometimes we got a bloody nose or a black eye. Much better than being bullied the rest of your life.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Wanda said:


> If you had no one else to help you out of this situation, what was plan B if the bat did not work? Were you living on your own and isolated from friends and family? It is hard to respond to posts with very little actual information.


The bat WAS Plan B. 

Mom was one of those people that always thought that the authority were always right. Dad was overseas fighting another stupid war. 
Back in those days you sent your kid to school you didn’t make waves. At least that was the way my parents thought. 
Or perhaps they thought Like some here that My 5th grade self needed to learn to stand up to a pretty much grown man ?
I think you All have some pretty unrealistic expectations. Life is not one of the karate kid movies. the kids that are bullies beat the crap out of little kids ,sometime unmercifully. 
Sure it’s great if you got a big brother or cousin that can step in and help you out of the situation but life isn’t always like that.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> Well just exactly what would you have advised?
> For what its worth I did ambush him with a bat more than once.
> I think I was pretty clear after a certain point I was trying to kill him simply to stay alive.
> Thank god the US Army decided it was time for me to live somewhere else. Or I might have eventually been one of those old time school killers everyone says didn't exist.


I don't think you would have been like those terrible killers. You were after one big bully that hurt you bad and survival instinct is something nearly all of us have. It's a good and necessary thing, helps a species continue and all that.



AmericanStand said:


> The bat WAS Plan B.
> 
> Mom was one of those people that always thought that the authority were always right. Dad was overseas fighting another stupid war.
> Back in those days you sent your kid to school you didn’t make waves. At least that was the way my parents thought.
> ...


Well, that answers a few of the questions I had about your parents. Tough situation and it unfortunately called for tough measures.
A couple of good friends is always helpful, but a big boy and an impending butt whooping can test the limits of the most loyal comrades.
I WAS the big brother, oldest son, so I always looked out for my kid brother coming up. But of course that meant I was the lone ranger without any backup when the 8th graders would look for a 6th grader to pick on in jr. high.
I didn't have to face what you did but it was scary, kinda like YH's post..........



Yvonne's hubby said:


> Not really. Little kids often stand up to bigger kids. Yep, sometimes we got a bloody nose or a black eye. Much better than being bullied the rest of your life.


2 or 3 good sized football players against an undersized bookworm (nerd).
I was no match physically of course, but refused to "stay down". They eventually got wore out from knocking me down because I'd get back up and square off again and again. The respect came from that incident, not because I beat them, they couldn't beat me, not into submission anyway.
That same year I got my upper lip "stapled" to my braces from another in that group from a sucker punch in the mouth.
I peeled my lip off, spit out the blood and took off after him like a madman, lol.
You (American Stand) did that too, by not backing down after your severe beatdown. I hate it for you because you got hurt so bad as a result. It never should have gone that far.
And I don't think that IS unrealistic.
You DID survive and stood back up. That is no small thing for a kid to do.

I think that's why many of us cheered the man on, in the OP's thread.
Years later, he still wasn't going to back down and faced his bully.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

oneraddad said:


> So you teach your kids to take the law into their own hands and that violence is the answer, interesting.


Nope, you didn't read everything in context.
*As a last resort*, yes.
But one of things learned in the martial arts is, your best weapon is your brain.
Seek out the best solution and surprise your enemy by acting on it.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> I think what was plain was your first comment that there would only be two witnesses to the event and that one would remain silent. Hard to see how a knee injury would ensure silence. But it’s your story. Evolve it as you will.


That's the unknown, isn't it?
It's also where personal experience becomes so valuable. If someone has seen how events turn out from taking different actions, then getting the right advice for a particular situation can help a child deal with the unknown and troubling events they will face as they go thru life.
Seeing the favorable results also instills confidence and courage in that child.
"My story" isn't the 'end all, be all' and shouldn't be assumed as such.
There isn't a perfect answer and maybe not even a perfect ending.
But one thing that is certain....... a bully's success depends on one thing - fear.
Take that away and they fail.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> That's the unknown, isn't it?
> It's also where personal experience becomes so valuable. If someone has seen how events turn out from taking different actions, then getting the right advice for a particular situation can help a child deal with the unknown and troubling events they will face as they go thru life.
> Seeing the favorable results also instills confidence and courage in that child.
> "My story" isn't the 'end all, be all' and shouldn't be assumed as such.
> ...


As long as there’s only one witness left to testify, right?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> As long as there’s only one witness left to testify, right?


Oh!
I didn't catch your misinterpretation before, you must still think I meant something entirely different when I said........



> It won't be what they say in a courtroom, but that's why there are only 2 witnesses and one of them shall remain silent.


Even though I followed that with .......



> It's also never changed that every dog has his day and I would find you blameless if you took out that kid's kneecaps and made him crawl home that day.


and


> I would not aim for his head since that is lethal


No, not one witness *left*.
The one remaining silent would be the one taking the 5th, exercising his right not to incriminate himself.
And _should_ it go to a jury, given the circumstances, the sole witness with the sore knees just wouldn't be enough to convince me.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> Oh!
> I didn't catch your misinterpretation before, you must still think I meant something entirely different when I said........
> 
> 
> ...


Of course that’s what you meant.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> Of course that’s what you meant.


Yes it is and I stated it plainly.
Do you think I'm lying?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> Yes it is and I stated it plainly.
> Do you think I'm lying?


I think you make deliberately vague statements hoping they won’t be scrutinized then offer clarifications that put them in the most favorable light. Carry on.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> I think you make deliberately vague statements hoping they won’t be scrutinized then offer clarifications that put them in the most favorable light. Carry on.


Wow.
If you think anything I said was vague, then maybe English isn't your 1st language.
Ain't my problem.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> Wow.
> If you think anything I said was vague, then maybe English isn't your 1st language.
> Ain't my problem.


I was bilingual growing up. Hard to tell which was my 1st language. In fact, there were at least three languages spoken in the neighborhood of my youth. Of course that has nothing to do with my answer to your question. 

You’ve even admitted that at least one of your answers could be interpreted in different ways. Accidentally or deliberately is a matter of opinion and I’ve offered mine. I respect your intelligence too much to think that much of what you put forth is done so accidentally.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> I was bilingual growing up. Hard to tell which was my 1st language. In fact, there were at least three languages spoken in the neighborhood of my youth. Of course that has nothing to do with my answer to your question.
> 
> You’ve even admitted that at least one of your answers could be interpreted in different ways. Accidentally or deliberately is a matter of opinion and I’ve offered mine. I respect your intelligence too much to think that much of what you put forth is done so accidentally.


I'd rather have my honesty respected than my intelligence, although both get questioned more often than I like, but that's understandable when someone isn't known on a personal level.
I admit to using deceitful tactics in dealing with dangerous opponents, but you've never given me a reason to treat you that way.
So if your opinion is that I was actually giving Americanstand the advice to kill that kid with a baseball bat, all I can say is nothing could be farther from the truth.
If you did know me personally, you'd have no doubt.

It's difficult for any of us to handle what life throws at us and violent confrontations are at the top of the list.
Some never have to face them and those of us that have, are fortunate if we come away without serious lifelong consequences.
Bullies in children can rapidly escalate to adult sized problems, as we've all seen.
But the proportional level of response should never be misinterpreted, intentionally or otherwise.
When a kid shoots up a school because he was teased or his girlfriend broke up with him that's just as wrong as not punishing the kid who inflicts serious injuries to another one without any justification.
I would never advise killing someone unless they were trying to kill you or someone else.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> I'd rather have my honesty respected than my intelligence, although both get questioned more often than I like, but that's understandable when someone isn't known on a personal level.
> I admit to using deceitful tactics in dealing with dangerous opponents, but you've never given me a reason to treat you that way.
> So if your opinion is that I was actually giving Americanstand the advice to kill that kid with a baseball bat, all I can say is nothing could be farther from the truth.
> If you did know me personally, you'd have no doubt.
> ...


Thanks for yet another clarification. To be clear, I never questioned your honesty.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

farmrbrown said:


> I don't think you would have been like those terrible killers. You were after one big bully that hurt you bad and survival instinct is something nearly all of us have. It's a good and necessary thing, helps a species continue and all that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn’t have any friends in the school this started on the first day i got there. 
Upside I didn’t have to feel betrayed by buddies that didn’t stand by me. 

Honestly I didnt have any choice about standing up for myself either. This guy really just didn’t stop. That’s how I kept winding up in the hospital. 
He would simply keep beating me till the bells rang. 

I’m not sure I wouldn’t have been like the school shooters you’re hear about now I was definitely mad at the kid I was mad at my teacher his teachers his friends most of the school administration , the kids that stood around and laughed while he did this. 

I’ve thought back it over many times wondering about the situation myself.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> I didn’t have any friends in the school this started on the first day i got there.
> Upside I didn’t have to feel betrayed by buddies that didn’t stand by me.
> 
> Honestly I didnt have any choice about standing up for myself either. This guy really just didn’t stop. That’s how I kept winding up in the hospital.
> He would simply keep beating me till the bells rang.


The situation definitely was a bad one. We can't change the past and I wasn't there either, but 1 visit to the hospital is one time too many.
I don't know where anybody else was or why they didn't act, but your dad's predicament of being deployed elsewhere is one of the many reasons I would never serve the military. *My* family comes first and I don't have any uncle named Sam, lol.
They'd have charged me with AWOL the minute I heard my son was put in the hospital and nobody was doing anything about it.




> I’m not sure I wouldn’t have been like the school shooters you’re hear about now I was definitely mad at the kid I was mad at my teacher his teachers his friends most of the school administration , the kids that stood around and laughed while he did this.
> 
> I’ve thought back it over many times wondering about the situation myself.


I'll tell you why I said that.
#1, because you didn't.
#2, because in none of the other cases I've seen, was it the result of a violent attack. Yeah I know everybody, words on Facebook etc. hurt and drove these shooters to do what they did. That's their excuse, but as far as I know, no hospital trips.
That's a whole different level.
It would be no surprise if that kid ended up doing life at a penitentiary shortly after graduation.


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## Nsoitgoes (Jan 31, 2016)

Redlands Okie said:


> Bullies doing their thing at school repeatedly is a result of school employees failing to do their job. School employees repeatedly failing to do their job is a result of parents allowing it by failing to do their job of providing for their children.
> If a child is repeatedly mistreated then the parents are a part of the problem. If the adults can not solve the issues then what do you expect children to do.
> Best find a solution. Preferably by the rules but if need be, whatever it takes. It’s just that simple.


A propos of nothing: when I was a child I lived in a poor neighborhood of terraced housing. Many of the old women of each terrace would congregate most days outside someone's house, sitting there knitting, crocheting, sewing, gossiping... and they watched us kids like Hawks. Any sign of any kind of bad behavior and we would be firmly shaken by an ear with the terse query "Do you want me to tell your mam?" To which the correct response was "No, missis, I'm sorry, missis". Because anyone's "mam" would half kill them, more for being a shameful reflection on them than for the behavior per se. The old biddy would then dole out what she considered just punishment (usually another shake of the ear, but if the conduct had been particularly heinous they thought nothing of giving us a swat to the backside) and that was that. Bad behavior was simply not tolerated at all, and everyone, including parents, was on the same page. We learned quickly that eyes were everywhere and justice was swift and sure. I chuckle about it now, but those old gals provided a huge area of "safe space" while we were free to play and exercise our imaginations. They ruled the streets unopposed. Ah. The good old days. Lol.


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