# Shallow Well -- Advice on plumbing needed *with pictures!*



## PorkChopsMmm

I previously asked for advice on running sinking a shallow point well that could be used for inside the cabin with an electric pump and out at the wells location using a handpump. Your advice was very appreciated and I was able to use it to help get me this far. I think I have everything set up but I ran into a problem. My well is an 1 1/4" drive point that is sunk down around 23 to 25 feet. Water is present and can be pumped easily when using the hand pump or the electric pump AT the well point. My issue is with running 12 feet of pipe horizontal and another 4 feet or so pipe vertically and running the electric pump (see pictures). I made an error in judgement I believe by extending from the well using 1 1/4" black poly pipe. The pipe works great but my 3/4 hp shallow well pump is struggling to maintain a prime. After consulting with some locals it appears I should have used 1" or 3/4" pipe from the well and into the house. 

I have 2 questions:
1) Would you use 1" or 3/4" pipe to run the extension? I am leaning to 3/4" to hopefully guarantee the pump will be able to maintain a prime -- but will I lose a lot of water flow?

2) In the included pictures you can see my pump set up. THIS WAS A TEST and the cooler was there to help collect water that was leaking our of some of the fittings! I know it looks messy but I have a union, check valve, and an elbow reducing the 1 1/4" to 1" for water flowing into the pump. Would you change this arrangement at all? I am thinking of putting in a spigot somewhere in the mix when I switch to 1" or 3/4" to allow for easier draining of the pump as this will be drained before leaving in the winter. The cabin is wood heated and when we aren't there the temperatures will drop.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## fishhead

The size of the pipe has nothing to do with losing the prime.

You'll lose the prime if there is a tiny leak anywhere between the pump intake and the water level.

I went with 1 1/4" galvanized pipe all the way from the sand point to the pump. I find it easier to make tight joints with threaded pipe than polypipe and screw clamps.

Someone recommended teflon pipe dope and it seems to work much better for me.

To drain the line just plumb in a faucet or coupler between the pump check valve and the well. That will let the water in the well drop. You will still need to make sure the pump and the line between the check valve and the pump is empty and to do that pull the drain plug on the pump.


----------



## PorkChopsMmm

Fish, thanks for the info. I checked for leaks and there really were none, except for the small drips coming out of fittings on the pump (hence the cooler). This is nothing new as it was leaking just the same when I tested the pump outside when it was working fine. I have not wanted to add tons of teflon tape and tightened everything down to an extreme because I needed to be able to take the pump immediately down to finish the interior of the cabin. 

I checked my poly fittings and they are all good. Using galvanized would have been a big pain because I would need to custom size all of my lengths of pipe. Sorry if it comes across like I am discounting your advice. I did check for leaks and it is something else.

I will put in a faucet under the check valve. Thanks!



fishhead said:


> The size of the pipe has nothing to do with losing the prime.
> 
> You'll lose the prime if there is a tiny leak anywhere between the pump intake and the water level.
> 
> I went with 1 1/4" galvanized pipe all the way from the sand point to the pump. I find it easier to make tight joints with threaded pipe than polypipe and screw clamps.
> 
> Someone recommended teflon pipe dope and it seems to work much better for me.
> 
> To drain the line just plumb in a faucet or coupler between the pump check valve and the well. That will let the water in the well drop. You will still need to make sure the pump and the line between the check valve and the pump is empty and to do that pull the drain plug on the pump.


----------



## Cabin Fever

It could be by entending the vertical height of the well pipe 4 feet, you exceeded the 25 ft maximum suction lift of the pump.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> except for the small drips


That's all it takes to let the water drain out of the pipe.

Do you have any check valves between the well and the pump?


----------



## PorkChopsMmm

I agree, I think this could be the problem. I had 2 different folks mention to me that reducing the pipe size would solve the issue. I wanted to check with you all to see what you thought. It makes sense, smaller diameter pipe, smaller amount of water to pull, etc. but I don't get many opportunities to go up to the cabin and work and I want to try and figure out a solution before I arrive on site.

Thanks again for all of the help.




Cabin Fever said:


> It could be by entending the vertical height of the well pipe 4 feet, you exceeded the 25 ft maximum suction lift of the pump.


----------



## PorkChopsMmm

Bear, yes I do. There is one in the pictures of how the poly pipe is coming into the cabin. It works well but I think my pump just can't pump up fast enough to keep water flowing. E.g. if I let it run for ~5 minutes or so it will build up pressure and fill the pressure tank. When I run the "faucet" it will release all the water under good pressure but then have problems refilling the pressure tank unless I let it run for another 5 minutes or so. That is very different behavior from when I had the pump hooked up outside with all of the same fittings and plumbing.



Bearfootfarm said:


> That's all it takes to let the water drain out of the pipe.
> 
> Do you have any check valves between the well and the pump?


----------



## Cabin Fever

What is the vertical distance from the watertable (top of the groundwater) in your well casing to the inlet of your indoor pump?


----------



## fishhead

It still sounds like it's sucking air somewhere between the pump and the water level in the ground. 

When it's running and allowing air to be sucked in it will take a long time to build pressure if ever. When it's not running it will allow the water level in the pipe to drop back down the pipe and force the pump to run until it reprimes.

All it takes is a tiny pinhole to cause it to act like that.

I use teflon pipe dope not the teflon tape. It's more expensive than the other kind of dope but not that much.

If the leak was between the check valve and the pump it would start pumping pretty fast but have a hard time building pressure.

If the leak was between the check valve and the sand point it would take a long time to start pumping and a long time to build pressure.

What does it do when you leave te faucet open and start the pump? If it spits and sputters it's sucking air into the pipe or pump.


----------



## PorkChopsMmm

Cabin Fever said:


> What is the vertical distance from the watertable (top of the groundwater) in your well casing to the inlet of your indoor pump?


I would say about 15 feet or so. When you look down when the sun is shining overhead you can see it not too far down.



fishhead said:


> It still sounds like it's sucking air somewhere between the pump and the water level in the ground.
> 
> When it's running and allowing air to be sucked in it will take a long time to build pressure if ever. When it's not running it will allow the water level in the pipe to drop back down the pipe and force the pump to run until it reprimes.
> 
> All it takes is a tiny pinhole to cause it to act like that.
> 
> I use teflon pipe dope not the teflon tape. It's more expensive than the other kind of dope but not that much.
> 
> If the leak was between the check valve and the pump it would start pumping pretty fast but have a hard time building pressure.
> 
> If the leak was between the check valve and the sand point it would take a long time to start pumping and a long time to build pressure.
> 
> What does it do when you leave te faucet open and start the pump? If it spits and sputters it's sucking air into the pipe or pump.


Fishhead -- I am going to double check my connections the next time I am up there. When fully pressurized and the pump cycled off, I would turn on the water, it would pour for 30 seconds or a minute, and then the flow would slow and the pump would cycle on. It would take 5 minutes or so for pressure to rise and the pump to turn off. It sounds like it could be a leak but I check all my connections and couldn't see any. If it helps when I was checking for leaks I saw that the poly pipe had lots of condensation from the ground water being cold and it being hot outside and I checked the pipe to see if any of it was hollow or filled with air. The entire pipe all the way into the house had condensation and felt full.


----------



## fishhead

The condensation would indicate a full pipe IF the pipe has set unpumped for several hours. You can also tap it with the handle of screw driver.

Sometimes when I have problem making a seal on polypipe connections I wrap the whole thing in electrical tape. Pretty ******* looking but it works.

Good luck. I've spent my share of frustrating hours trying to track down pumping problems so I know what it's like. Let us know what you find.


----------



## PorkChopsMmm

Thanks fishhead. I am going to be up there this weekend camping with my oldest kid and I think I will be able to give it a once over. If the poly pipe is sucking air enough that the pump won't prime would I be able to hear it from outside? Or if I poured water on the poly connections with the barb fittings would I see air bubbles or some other indicator?

Thanks!


----------



## fishhead

No. The water would get sucked into the pipe. That's what keeps the negative pressure from building up and preventing it from priming. I usually doesn't make enough noise to be heard over the motor at least for my ears.

In a pinch at the farm I have poured water over the intake fittings while priming my gas powered pond pump. I've even smeared clay inside the fittings when I lost the O-ring.

In your case if there was any doubt about the connection I would just wrap the connections in a couple of layers of electrical tape. That's what I've done with my garden pump when it wouldn't prime.


----------



## Junkhound

Most probably sucking air around 1 of the poly fittings. A shallow well jet pump will suck air from joints that will not leak when pressure is on it.
Also water can only be sucked up 31 feet vertical in a pure vacuum at sea level. As you altitude above sea level rises, the vertical distance water can be sucked up decreases. Very few jet pumps are more than 80% efficient.
.80 X 31 feet = 24.8 feet at sea level.
If the well is 25 feet deep + another 4 feet vert. = 29 feet, as the water pulls down the pump will pump less and less water, until the impeller starts to cavitate. When it cavitates it creates air and can loose its prime. If you slow down the amount of water being pumped the well will not draw down as far and should not lose its prime. Before i sold my well drilling and pump service business we had went to either steel fittings or PVC, as the poly and clamps caused more failures than the other 2 put together. I would replumb with PVC and try to lose the additional 4 vertical feet. Any horizontal runs on the suction side should run slightly uphill towards the pump. This will let all the trapped air rise out of the line. Hope this helps
junkhound


----------



## PorkChopsMmm

Junkhound, thank you for the info. Our place is just under 900 feet above sea level. So I can just plumb with PVC? Sorry to sound naive, but I thought it was either galvanized or poly pipe. Attached are some pictures with notes on where things are (these pictures are old and I don't have more recent ones). I need to run water in the cabin in the back corner, where our kitchen is. This place is up north and 0 degrees F in the winter can hit with regularity for a week or 2 -- as such I wanted to keep the pump in the cabin in a small closet in the kitchen. I don't think we can keep the pump outside as our place is offgrid and we wood heat the cabin. As such, I'm not sure where I would relocate the pump to.

As far as cavitation of the pump -- in your opinion would reducing the well pipe diameter from 1 1/4" to 3/4" help the pump draw more water vertically?

I am open to any suggestions you have. Thanks!


----------



## Cabin Fever

PorkChopsMmm said:


> As far as cavitation of the pump -- in your opinion would reducing the well pipe diameter from 1 1/4" to 3/4" help the pump draw more water vertically?


It makes no difference whether you are sucking water thru a straw or a 3ft diameter pipe. You can only lift water - using suction - approximately 25 ft. This is a law of physics that cannot be changed. If the 25 ft. vertical distance is exceeded, the pump will cavitate.

The 25 ft distance is the vertical measurement from the top of the watertable to the inlet of the pump. Any horizontal runs and elbows con the suction side of the pump cause friction which actually reduces the effectiveness of the 25 ft distance.


----------



## PorkChopsMmm

Thank you for the info. Shucks. Hopefully it is a leak and I can make it air tight enough to pump effectively. If not I need to start thinking of some alternatives -- which all require quite a bit more work.





Cabin Fever said:


> It makes no difference whether you are sucking water thru a straw or a 3ft diameter pipe. You can only lift water - using suction - approximately 25 ft. This is a law of physics that cannot be changed. If the 25 ft. vertical distance is exceeded, the pump will cavitate.
> 
> The 25 ft distance is the vertical measurement from the top of the watertable to the inlet of the pump. Any horizontal runs and elbows con the suction side of the pump cause friction which actually reduces the effectiveness of the 25 ft distance.


----------



## Cabin Fever

To make the 25ft vertical lift, maseasonal cabin owners in Minnesota will put their suction pump/pressure tank in a "dog house" out in the yard or in an outdoor well pit below ground. That way they are within the 25ft vertical lift maxmum. The pump can then work to "push" the water to a much higher elevation within the cabin with no problem. Of course, the pump/pressure tank and plumbing are drained for the winter.

The first thing I would do in your situation, is drop a weighted string down the well to get the distance to the water table. Then, add to this distance, the vertical distance from the top of the well to your pump. Hopefully the sum of the measurements is less than 25 ft.


----------



## PorkChopsMmm

I will do this when I am up this weekend. Thank you for the advice. We plan to use this cabin year round and potentially live there so I can't do a seasonal pump house. I have considered putting the pump above the well, that you see in the pictures, and building a pump house with insulation and mounding dirt around it but I am unsure if that could take the winters. I can't dig an underground pump house because you hit water at 3 to 4 feet and I don't want the pump to get flooded if a nearby creek were to overflow.



Cabin Fever said:


> The first thing I would do in your situation, is drop a weighted string down the well to get the distance to the water table. Then, add to this distance, the vertical distance from the top of the well to your pump. Hopefully the sum of the measurements is less than 25 ft.


----------



## fishhead

Are you a gambler? 

If you were I would suggest building a well insulated shelter over the pump that extends down into the ground to a foot below the groundwater table.

There's an almost infinite amount of heat in groundwater and should easily be able to keep your pump from freezing. You'd have to slope the line from the house so it could be drained from the pump to the house when you leave.

I know this because when my lake was higher I could dig in the garden 12 months out of the year even in -20 F. The water was only 2-3' below the ground level of the garden.


----------



## Parttimefarmer

We have a pump house, I would highly suggest one. If nothing else it provides shelter for us when the pump goes out and it's snowing, cold, raining, etc. Our pump likes to stop working mid shower. 

Ours is a pier like foundation and partly dug out. It's insulated, looks like a big outhouse. Been there about 15 years, no issues.


----------



## PorkChopsMmm

If it turns out it is not a leak in the poly it looks like I will need to switch my plans and build a pump house. Thanks for the input. I have seen some plans online and this looks like something I can build at my house and trailer up to the cabin. That would be a big time saver.


----------



## Junkhound

Pork, to make sure the poly gets the very best seal, loosen the clamps (after you bleed off all pressure) take a hair dryer or torch and heat the poly. retighten the clamp and this will give it the best seal. Otherwise just replumb with pvc. I would use the same size as the suction on the pump, but no smaller than 1".

junkhound


----------



## PorkChopsMmm

Great advice -- thank you! I have started to google pump houses and while it looks do-able I'm not sure if this is something I could get done before cold weather hits. There is a lot to think about and research!



Junkhound said:


> Pork, to make sure the poly gets the very best seal, loosen the clamps (after you bleed off all pressure) take a hair dryer or torch and heat the poly. retighten the clamp and this will give it the best seal. Otherwise just replumb with pvc. I would use the same size as the suction on the pump, but no smaller than 1".
> 
> junkhound


----------



## RonM

PCMTN good looking cabin, where isit located, looks like my dream cabin....


----------



## PorkChopsMmm

RonM, Michigan. I need to do a build thread one of these days. 

I think I am going to go straight to the pump house design. I have always been uncomfortable with the thought of having a water pump under the counter in the kitchen. If it were to leak or spew water it could do some major damage. Out in a pump house I can super insulate its surroundings and not have to worry about the water damage as much.


----------



## PorkChopsMmm

I created a new thread to document my Pump house build. Please feel free to provide input. Thank you!

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?p=5338606#post5338606


----------



## davel745

I did not read every post so I apoligise if someone has mentioned this. 

Do you have a foot valve on the point?


----------

