# Loss of hope’: Idaho hospitals crushed by COVID-19 surge



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

'Loss of hope': Idaho hospitals crushed by COVID-19 surge


BOISE, Idaho (AP) — The intensive care rooms at St. Luke's Boise Medical Center are full, each a blinking jungle of tubes, wires and mechanical breathing machines. The patients nestled inside are a lot alike: All unvaccinated, mostly middle-aged or younger, reliant on life support and locked in...




apnews.com




"With a critical shortage of hospital beds and staff and one of the nation’s lowest vaccination rates, Idaho health providers are growing desperate and preparing to follow crisis standards of care, which call for giving scarce resources to patients most likely to survive."


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

painterswife said:


> 'Loss of hope': Idaho hospitals crushed by COVID-19 surge
> 
> 
> BOISE, Idaho (AP) — The intensive care rooms at St. Luke's Boise Medical Center are full, each a blinking jungle of tubes, wires and mechanical breathing machines. The patients nestled inside are a lot alike: All unvaccinated, mostly middle-aged or younger, reliant on life support and locked in...
> ...


Geez what ever happened to tents and beds and all the ppe ventilator and national guard medical staff.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I was in Coeur D’Alene last week and you’d never know there was a pandemic. Not a mask in sight. I know an ED doctor at the local hospital and he says they are absolutely swamped. And now they are filling up the hospitals in Spokane.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

Our hospital just fired all staff not vaccinated. Last day was friday. If you resigned you got your unused vacation days paid. If you got fired none.


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## wdcutrsdaughter (Dec 9, 2012)

Seems odd to fire people while at the same time having a shortage of workers.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Our eldest was home this weekend as they have closed the campus effectively. Online classes only, etc. She wandered by as I was watching the UNC vs. VT football game and was like, ***. It has gone to a selective pandemic of those willing to participate and listening to fake news narratives. And, yes people are still getting infected and getting sick and, sadly, succumbing. But, the Wuflu is here and not going anywhere and do your best not to get it, not to succumb to it and most importantly quit fearing it. FEAR is how you can be controlled and FEAR is how you can be conditioned to HATE.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

My wife says the beach is very, very packed. More than she has ever seen.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

HDRider said:


> My wife says the beach is very, very packed. More than she has ever seen.


Huge music festival in our neck of the woods this week. Tickets were sold out 4 days after they announced it. The children stuck in public school have to wear a mask all day and cannot eat in the cafeteria. It is science.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Hiro said:


> science.


Settled science


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

HDRider said:


> Settled science


The irony is in the local newspaper, or fish wrap, with stories of mask mandates at the school and measures to control the spread and an overwhelmed hospital contrasted with an influx of 40k music fans and every hotel and airbnb full and our casual observation of the billboard for the hospital ER wait time of 4 minutes.

This is the worst disinformation campaign since Baghdad Bob. Business is business, we are booked up this coming week.


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## Rodeo's Bud (Apr 10, 2020)

It is so odd, that not being vaccinated is taken as being infected or a carrier.

Why not test medical staff every three days. 4 day incubation, you would catch it most likely.

And what about vaccinated folks who show no signs because they are vaccinated. They tend to be carriers on occasion. They should be tested as well.

We're short on beds and staff. Let's do the chicken sh!t PC thing and let our staff go. Then when we are too busy we can blame it on the non vaccinated since they refused to get with the program.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Guess you shouldn't have overtly politicized a natural event. Mutually assured destruction, welcome to the new cold war.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

barnbilder said:


> Guess you shouldn't have overtly politicized a natural event. Mutually assured destruction, welcome to the new cold war.


Prepare for the reformation of the USA


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

barnbilder said:


> Guess you shouldn't have overtly politicized a natural event. Mutually assured destruction, welcome to the new cold war.


Natural events don't include a coronavirus supposedly from a bat that bat's cannot contract as easily as **** sapiens. Hinky.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

painterswife said:


> 'Loss of hope': Idaho hospitals crushed by COVID-19 surge
> 
> 
> BOISE, Idaho (AP) — The intensive care rooms at St. Luke's Boise Medical Center are full, each a blinking jungle of tubes, wires and mechanical breathing machines. The patients nestled inside are a lot alike: All unvaccinated, mostly middle-aged or younger, reliant on life support and locked in...
> ...


To keep it in perspective, Idaho has a population of less than 2 million, which means they don't have a large medical capability because they normally don't need it. They are averaging just under 1000 cases a day and very few of those will be hospitalized. Their 7 day average deaths is 7. The media likes to publish stories like this to spread fear. This situation speaks more to the lack of medical capacity in Idaho than it does the virus. The good news is that their cases will decline very soon just like they always do in every country and state.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Don't believe the crap reported.
My daughter is an ER nurse in a rural hospital. According to the State, her county is a " hot bed" of covid cases.
The state has her county listed as a red zone.
At the same time they only had one patient in the hospital with Covid.
In early Oct. the administration is requiring that all employees must be vaccinated.
69 people are refusing and will lose their jobs.
This includes three Doctors half of the ER staff the maternity wing and the housekeeping staff.
Essentially the hospital will have to shut down he to a lack of personal.
The number of people who have come to the ER with severe reactions to the vaccine, mostly Cardiac and clotting issues, has been increasing. They have been told to no longer report VAERS cases. Those are cases brought about by the vaccine.
Meanwhile traitor Joe is shipping illegal aliens (and their diseases) all over the Country.
If we are really having a pandemic why are the borders open?
Just a few thoughts for those of you who can still think.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

We are being lied to.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

JJ Grandits said:


> We are being lied to.


 According to the HHS site, over all US utilization of staffed bed is 77% (13% for CoViD pts) as of 8/30/21.

That site takes too long to load, so, going by the map, ID is in the 60-69% category, with half the states more full.

If we assume ID has a very hi pt to doc ratio (what cool, lib- educated MD wants to live in ID?) then pts with fairly mild symptoms are probably using the ERs as their all night clinic., being seen and sent home with a pat on the back If CoV weren't a thing these days, these pts with these symptoms probably wouldn't bother going to the doc at all....And, what the heck-- we all got BO Care now, so it's free!

When I was an intern at Cook County Hospital, it was routine to see 100 pts an hour on an 8 hr shift (24h/d, 365d/y) The ER assignment was a break for us. On the Gen Med floors you worked 120h/w, with 24 hr duty when on call every 4th day.


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

Far as I can tell, and your mileage may vary, there are differences between:
-patients admitted to the hospital because they are newly sick (not a chronic condition) - because of Covid
-patients admitted to the hospital because they are sick or need surgery or were in a car accident or fell out of bed and broke their arm requiring surgery - and oh by the way test positive for Covid because we test everyone
-a hospital having 100 beds and they are all full
-a hospital having 100 beds but only staffed to serve 50 and effectively they are half full bed-wise.
-patients seen in the ER for any possible complaint, but not admitted because hey, it's hard to see a Dr. but they're always available in the ER for my stubbed toe or infected splinter, but tested positive for Covid because we test everyone
-patients turned away from the ER/ED because every available bed is full
-patients turned away from the ER/ED because they are only staffed to support half the available ER/ED beds.

Words matter, context matters, telling 'the rest of the story' matters.

Tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth regularly and people will believe you. Admit when your previous statement is discovered to be different because of new information, or because time has developed new learnings. 

Credibility is lost when 'the rest of the story' is discovered and it tells a different story than the headline.
Getting caught 'shading' the truth or exagerating the truth or minimizing the truth leads to suspicion, doubt and eventually being ignored.

I'm sad. This has become yet another way for us to be divided against each other.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

St. Lukes as of 8/19/2021


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Rolling Stone (a rock magazine that is somehow as legitimate as CNN) ran a story about a hospital (Oregon, I think) that was having to turn away gunshot victims because they were overrun with people who’d OD’d on ivermectin.

The story was found out to be false, so they published an “update” saying that one hospital had denied the claims. We passed ridiculous 18 months ago, and we’re never going to be able to trust our “news” about anything important in the future. You’ll note that even RD put the story in their Politics section.








One Hospital Denies Oklahoma Doctor's Story of Ivermectin Overdoses Causing ER Delays for Gunshot Victims


The hospital says it hasn’t experienced any care backlog due to patients overdosing on a drug that’s been falsely peddled as a covid cure



www.rollingstone.com






Those of you who genuinely wish that more people would mask up and take the vaccine (plus the inevitable bi-weekly boosters), please remember this the next time you encounter someone who refuses. Instead of getting angry or thinking less of them, turn your anger to the media, our politicians and social “influencers”. IF Covid really is that big of a deal, and IF the vaccine and masking really help, it’s their fault that so many people refuse.

This is the flow chart we’ve been living for the first 18 months of “2 weeks to flatten the curve”, and we’re sick and damned tired of it:


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

The second paragraph would have been sufficient.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Lisa in WA said:


> I was in Coeur D’Alene last week and you’d never know there was a pandemic. Not a mask in sight. I know an ED doctor at the local hospital and he says they are absolutely swamped. And now they are filling up the hospitals in Spokane.


I think that illustrates the point I was trying to make. This is going to sound like BS, givin the apparent coincidence, but I have a friend in Coeur D’Alene whose wife works in administration in the local hospital- Coutenai or something like that.

We were talking last week and Covid came up. He said the Mrs. has been slammed at work, trying to schedule in all the patients they had, and how strained the capacity was, but that the capacity constraint was staffing. They have a lot more beds, but are running at something like 60% staff.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Forcast said:


> Geez what ever happened to tents and beds and all the ppe ventilator and national guard medical staff.


That was under the previous President, who provided a massive federal response to this pandemic but was excoriated by the press.

This President is being pushed around in his wheelchair by Vice President Cackles while the media ignores the confusing/conflicting stories coming from his inept administration.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

I think we should be taking advice from the Three Stooges instead of the media, politicians, and a lot of medical professionals.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> I think that illustrates the point I was trying to make. This is going to sound like BS, givin the apparent coincidence, but I have a friend in Coeur D’Alene whose wife works in administration in the local hospital- Coutenai or something like that.
> 
> We were talking last week and Covid came up. He said the Mrs. has been slammed at work, trying to schedule in all the patients they had, and how strained the capacity was, but that the capacity constraint was staffing. They have a lot more beds, but are running at something like 60% staff.


Staff is the issue. Boomers are retiring, either legitimately concerned because of covid, or close enough to not deal with working at a place that is understaffed. Vaccine mandates, for people that thought they had a pretty good grasp on understanding how respiratory viruses and antibodies work, and who were infected before this stuff made the news, is the tipping point for a lot of younger staff, in an excellent job market atmosphere.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

My sister, who is a nurse, tells me many have quit because of the forced vaccinations.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Medical care personnel are just the beginning of those who are chosing to get fired or retire early instead of getting the shot. Quite a few first responders are refusing the vaccination.









First responders nationwide resist COVID vaccine mandates


March 11, 2021. It was supposed to be a turning point in the coronavirus pandemic for Erin Tokley, a longtime Philadelphia police officer, Baptist minister and 47-year-old father of three. It was s…




www.nbc4i.com


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Our local hospitals are NOT being overrun with CCP virus patients. They weren't the first go-round, either, despite desperate news reports to the contrary.

My dear friend got to go in to the hospital to be with her desperately ill husband. Darned near took an act of congress for her to get in

Didn't take her long to figure out that the reason they didn't want her in there was because, in contrast to the news reports, the hospital was like a ghost town. It was not teeming and bursting at the seams.

Similar event when another friend had symptoms of a heart attack. She was admitted, but said that she got plenty of attention because there were only 2 other patients.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Bears repeating


GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Those of you who genuinely wish that more people would mask up and take the vaccine (plus the inevitable bi-weekly boosters), please remember this the next time you encounter someone who refuses. Instead of getting angry or thinking less of them, turn your anger to the media, our politicians and social “influencers”. IF Covid really is that big of a deal, and IF the vaccine and masking really help, it’s their fault that so many people refuse.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Pony said:


> Our local hospitals are NOT being overrun with CCP virus patients. They weren't the first go-round, either, despite desperate news reports to the contrary.
> 
> My dear friend got to go in to the hospital to be with her desperately ill husband. Darned near took an act of congress for her to get in
> 
> ...



Same here last wave. They designated 1 wing of 1 floor in a 5 story hospital as the COVID wing. I heard on the local news that the hospital was full of COVID patients so I called our granddaughter who is a nurse on that wing. She laughed and said they have 30 beds on that wing and currently had 19 COVID patients and did call one nurse from another wing to help out. The rest of the hospital was nearly empty because they were postponing many procedures due to the COVID.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Medical folks and adminiscritters have done a poor job of using the right words to describe what's going on. We often say a hospital is "full", or "no beds" when that is not the ACTUAL case, but rather we are just using the term colloquially to mean that we can't put another patient in another hospital bed because of the lack of staffing.

Operationally it doesn't matter WHY I can't admit another patient, it just matters that I can't admit another patient to my hospital so I have to transfer. Operationally it doesn't matter WHY the two tertiary care centers an hour away can't accept transfers ("full" or just "not enough staff to fill more beds"), it just matters that I now have to call secondary level hospitals TWO hours away....which are are also frequently on diversion now. Or the other tertiary centers 3 hours away. BTW, each transfer takes an EMS crew out of service. 

This is absolutely a staffing issue that is confounded by a brutal pandemic, both of which have been horribly managed.

Great example of this: Most of my great nurses have left to become "travel nurses". Many of them have gone an hour away and work at one of the local tertiary centers, making 2-3 times what they made at my hospital because they are "travelers". Wanna guess where most of our "travelers" are coming from? You guessed it, from one of the local tertiary centers, but now they are making 2-3 times what they made there.

More administrative stupidity: Crushing the nurses with more and more patients, then begging nurses to come in on their off days. Almost every nurse I know (including my wife) no longer accepts those calls on off days (and those calls come EVERY DAY) because if they go in, they are gonna get crushed. 

More administrative stupidity: Probably 15% of "nurses" in every hospital don't care for patients, they are just clipboard warriors in charge of quality measures, etc. They wear business casual and go to meetings all day. They also don't work evenings, weekends or holidays. We could care for a lot more patients if these clipboard warriors (who are usually paid a LOT more than the floor/ICU/ED nurses) would drop their clipboards and pick up a couple of patients.

MORE administrative stupidity - let's fire everyone who hasn't been vaccinated. Let's not even give these frontline workers the ability to take a test to show they have antibodies from surviving a previous infection (which likely gives much greater protection), let's just fire them.

Sorry if this came out harsh. I'm burnt to a crisp after working all weekend, just sat down at my computer with a beverage in my hand. Just today I admitted three relatively young people with covid, two to the ICU. One on a vent. Ages 31-52, none vaccinated. Dealt with a dozen other people who are too cool to get the vaccine. One 67 yo methhead told me "I'M NOT GONNA GET THAT VACCINE...THAT ****'S POISON!!!" Yeah, but that meth and 2 pack a day smoking habit is really good for you. Lots of people who come to the ED just to get a covid test which is just stupid cause they are in the waiting room for 3 hours next to that guy coughing all over the place who really DOES have Covid. And both of them, of course, get mad at me when, after waiting to see me for 3 hours I finally see them in the triage room, examine them, and tell them to go somewhere else and get their covid test because they are not getting admitted anyway. Meanwhile, 2/3 of the way through my shift (EVERY SHIFT this weekend) our hospital is full (well, not really full, but can't accept any more patients) so the last 4 hours of my shift is mostly spent on the phone trying to find a hospital somewhere, ANYWHERE, who will accept my septic 14 year old football player or my 82 year old grandma with nothing but an old-fashioned pneumonia with hypoxemic respiratory failure. I guess that proves how stupid she was for getting her covid vaccine, right!?!

Before I get off my rant - lemme tell you about another patient. 40 yo diabetic, hypertensive, obese, covid positive, borderline hypoxic (anyone wanna guess HIS vaccination status?). I ask him why he didn't get his covid vaccine....well, because he believes in homeopathy and has been taking Vitamin E to make sure he doesn't get it. This guy eats McDonalds 10 times a week, is on metformin and a glipizide for his diabetes. He takes HCTZ, lisinopril and metoprolol for his hypertension, and came to my ED for more medication because he was short of breath....but doesn't want to get vaccinated (which is the SINGLE BEST WAY TO REDUCE THE RISK OF SERIOUS DISEASE) because he believes in stone-age witchcraft and new-age naturopathy (which is the same horse****).

My awesone nurse (whose last day was today because, you know, she's a traveler) and I looked at each other and rolled our eyes when he said that. And when we walked out of the room we both said, at the same time "WHAT THE [email protected] DOES HE WANT US TO DO!"

Several times this weekend I thought to myself that there is indeed a silver lining to all those people who don't want to get the vaccine: Job security for me, if I can survive the burnout.

Get your vaccine. It ain't perfect, it has some side effects and the rare serious complications, but it's the best way to reduce your risk of getting seriously I'll with covid.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

There seems to be a disconnect between what you are describing and the info presented on the HHS site-- they claim 77% capacity of STAFFED BEDS.

Your anecdotes about sick pts are a tear joker...but the fact remains, there's 150,000,000 Americans out here who are NOT vaccinated, NOT sick, and IF they do get sick, they have a 99.4% recovery rate.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

My daughter works in a small town hospital.
She told me they had 7 Covid hospitalizations and 5 of those 7 were vaccinated.


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## sharkerbaby (Jan 15, 2016)

We are continually being bombarded with "SCIENCE & DATA", "science & data", well it is overwhelmingly apparent to me that they are obviously also whispering "as long as we can twist and contort it in such a way that it says what we want it to say otherwise we must either ignore it or insist it is deceptive" 

One only has to look through this thread to see this phenomenon it all it's glory.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

doc- said:


> There seems to be a disconnect between what you are describing and the info presented on the HHS site-- they claim 77% capacity of STAFFED BEDS.


I worked for the government for 20 years. They will collect, count, and report data in the most politically favorable manner. While I'm not doubting what you are saying, without doing a deep dive into what data was collected, counted (and not counted), I don't really take what HHS says as important. For example - Are they counting critical access hospital beds that frequently don't keep very sick people? Are they counting beds set aside for OB, Peds, ortho, psych, geri-psych, or peds-psych patients? I don't know what they are counting, but I never trust government (or media) numbers much.



doc- said:


> Your anecdotes about sick pts are a tear joker...but the fact remains, there's 150,000,000 Americans out here who are NOT vaccinated, NOT sick, and IF they do get sick, they have a 99.4% recovery rate.


Not trying to jerk tears. 

I don't disagree with you. Same thing with most diseases with which we have vaccines against. 

But it doesn't change the fact that the vaccine is very safe (of course there are some side effects, and rarely some serious ones....just like EVERY other medication we have), and it is the BEST way we have right now for people to reduce the chances of serious disease.

I'm not screaming about this or berating anyone who chooses not to get it. While it is certainly frustrating to see so many young people sick with a disease they could have had protection against, it's their choice. I'm against government mandates, and I dislike business mandates. I don't trust my government to do much right, and I think the entire pandemic was politicized at the outset to get the last President out of office. I would put my conservative ideology up against anyone elses...but conversely I'm not going to make a decision to do/not do something SIMPLY because the idjits in government/media are telling me to not do/do something.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

As long as the government allows an open southern border, I have to doubt their sincerity in stopping covid. The majority are not vaccinated. Most have not been tested and the few that were and tested positive were released.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

no really said:


> As long as the government allows an open southern border, I have to doubt their sincerity in stopping covid. The majority are not vaccinated. Most have not been tested and the few that were and tested positive were released.


But we get told over and over that we MUST get that jab, and that those of us who refuse medical rape are the cause of the entire "pandemic." 

Over and over, the same record plays: "I support everyone's right to refuse the injection, but YOU'RE A FOOL IF YOU DON'T GET IT AND YOU'RE ENDANGERING EVERYONE!" (Observe the two lengthy posts on this page alone...)

Don't drink the KoolAid or smoke the hopium.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Pony said:


> Over and over, the same record plays: "I support everyone's right to refuse the injection, but YOU'RE A FOOL IF YOU DON'T GET IT AND YOU'RE ENDANGERING EVERYONE!" (Observe the two lengthy posts on this page alone...)


Apparently you are referring to me, so I'll respond and call you on your BS.

No where did I call anyone a fool if they don't get it. Yeah, it's hard to not feel frustration with sick patients who haven't gotten it, just like it's hard to not get frustrated with the meth heads, the super-obese, the non-compliant diabetics, etc who suddenly want me to fix everything. However that is their choice, just like it's your choice. I talk to smokers about quitting, I try to get meth heads into treatment, I recommend the super-obese join the Y and get in the pool to start exercising, etc. They may be a fool for getting where they are, and you may be a fool for not getting the vaccine, but I guarantee I'm just as much of a fool in many parts of my life.

And nowhere have I said that you're endangering everyone. Looks like the promises from Fauce et al that the vaccines will cure everything with herd immunity was as much of a lie as his promises that we didn't fund gain-of-function.

My goal is to make two points: 

1) The vaccine is the single best way to reduce your risk of becoming seriously ill if (when?) you get covid. It is imperfect, it has some risks, but it is the best tool we have.

2) Covid and mismanagement is crushing a lot of us in medicine.

If you read more into my posts than that it's because you are reading through your own bias.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

*20-Person Team of Army Medical Professionals Now at Kootenai Health*




__





Loading…






www.khq.com


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

boatswain2PA said:


> Apparently you are referring to me, so I'll respond and call you on your BS.
> 
> No where did I call anyone a fool if they don't get it. Yeah, it's hard to not feel frustration with sick patients who haven't gotten it, just like it's hard to not get frustrated with the meth heads, the super-obese, the non-compliant diabetics, etc who suddenly want me to fix everything. However that is their choice, just like it's your choice. I talk to smokers about quitting, I try to get meth heads into treatment, I recommend the super-obese join the Y and get in the pool to start exercising, etc. They may be a fool for getting where they are, and you may be a fool for not getting the vaccine, but I guarantee I'm just as much of a fool in many parts of my life.
> 
> ...


You don't keep repeating your mantra "Get the vaccine"? 

Bull cookies.

1.) The vaccine has NOT been proven to reduce risk. It has, however, been demonstrated that it increases risk of myriad side effects, and has also been demonstrated that those who get the injection are at least as likely to wind up on a vent for a disease that is more an issue of inability for RBCs to take in O2 than the inability of the lungs to oxygenate those red cells. 

2.) I'll give you that, and raise you a concerted effort by TPTB to demonize those of us who refuse a medical experiment -- a violation of the Nuremberg Code -- for which there is no informed consent.

But you keep on spewing what your superiors tell you to say. Don't bother taking the time to investigate all angles and think critically for yourself. 

Here... have a glass of this sweet, brightly colored, fruity liquid.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

@boatswain2PA, she was not refering to you. As you noted in your second paragraph you don't call vax refuters names or wish they would just die (as some posters have suggested).


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Pony said:


> The vaccine has NOT been proven to reduce risk. It has, however, been demonstrated that it increases risk of myriad side effects, and has also been demonstrated that those who get the injection are at least as likely to wind up on a vent for a disease that is more an issue of inability for RBCs to take in O2 than the inability of the lungs to oxygenate those red cells.


Patently false, but you do you.



Pony said:


> But you keep on spewing what your superiors tell you to say. Don't bother taking the time to investigate all angles and think critically for yourself.


I'm open to the vaccine, masks, ivermectin, azith, MABs, etc. I think we should be open to studying all of them to see their effectiveness, and then choose when to use what.

Seems like you are firmly entrenched in your position so no further need to discuss it with you.


Danaus29 said:


> @boatswain2PA, she was not refering to you


Pretty clear she was...


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Whatever


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

boatswain2PA said:


> *Patently false, but you do you.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Prove that what I posted is "patently false."

And I do not feel motivated to go back and quote the times you said, "Get the shot." Why do you keep pushing the medical experiment injection? 

You may say that you're open, but you deny that there are very real negative side effects, that people who are hospitalized are not vaccinated, and that those who don't get the jab are jeopardizing the health of others.

So quit trying to paint me with your brush. You keep pushing the party line.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Pony said:


> Prove that what I posted is "patently false."
> 
> And I do not feel motivated to go back and quote the times you said, "Get the shot." Why do you keep pushing the medical experiment injection?
> 
> ...


This last part should be deleted and the one who posted it should be barred from this forum.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

101pigs said:


> This last part should be deleted and the one who posted it should be barred from this forum.


Why?


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

101pigs said:


> This last part should be deleted and the one who posted it should be barred from this forum.





Hiro said:


> Why?


What @Hiro said: Why? Because it doesn't follow the narrative?

And why did you not demand that @boatswain2PA be banned? S/he said essentially the same thing about me.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Dear 101 pigs,
You don’t believe in free speech?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Pony said:


> So quit trying to paint me with your brush. You keep pushing the party line.





101pigs said:


> This last part should be deleted and the one who posted it should be barred from this forum.


I'm missing something. What did Pony say that was so wrong? Or was there more to the post which has been deleted?

People on this forum have stated that those who don't get the shot should be denied medical attention and deserve to die. Where was the outrage over those comments?


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Danaus29 said:


> I'm missing something. What did Pony say that was so wrong? Or was there more to the post which has been deleted?
> 
> *People on this forum have stated that those who don't get the shot should be denied medical attention and deserve to die. Where was the outrage over those comments?*


It is hard to get angry at ignorant people. Those people are fear ridden and I'm convinced some enjoy it. They jump at every media story showing something scary like it is the gospel. It is a repeated pattern over and over. A few weeks ago they focused on Missouri when cases were going up like it was the end of mankind. But the cases dropped like they always do. Then they wailed when the low vaccination rate states in the south saw rates increase and blamed it on the unvaccinated. But the cases are dropping in all those states too. Now they have latched into the story of the hospital in Idaho but their cases will drop soon too and have likely already peaked. They can't seem to understand viruses come in waves no matter what states try to do to prevent it but they fail to admit the vaccines are not preventing cases. They just can't grasp the truth that, just like in flue season, if you avoid crowds when the wave is rising in your area you will usually be fine.


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Ohio is still claiming 95% of covid patients are unvaccinated but they never say how they arrived at that number. I don't believe it since the hospitals no longer test vaccinated patients.

All I can do is hope that those people wishing denial of treatment or death on the unvaccinated don't have any loved ones among those who cannot be vaccinated.


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Pony said:


> Prove that what I posted is "patently false."
> 
> And I do not feel motivated to go back and quote the times you said, "Get the shot." Why do you keep pushing the medical experiment injection?
> 
> ...


There is no amount of proof that I could provide to you to change your mind. tthats fine with me, you are intransigent, ok, good for you.

You dont have to, I'll say it again. I encourage everyone to get vaccinated as it is the best method we have to prevent people from getting seriously I'll if/when they become infected. None of the vaccines are great, and all carry a small risk of causing sickness, and an incredibly low risk of serious disease. If you are young and healthy then there is less of a risk of the disease compared to the vaccine, if you are older/fat/diabetic/hypertensive or have pulmonary disease then the risk of the disease far exceeds the risk of the vaccine.

I'm not for government mandates, and I dont like company mandates, but I encourage people to get the vaccine.

I've never denied the vaccine has risks. I diagnose a young man with pericarditis a few days after his vaccine. Could it be from the vaccine? I dunno, but he had no other real risk factors, so likely was. A few days on NSAIDs and he went home. I've seen scores of worried-well who felt terrible for a day or so after they got the vaccine, but all are fine. And I've read the literature that essentially says this vaccine is just like every other vaccine and can cause some bad things like guillain barre, anaphylaxis, inflammatory reactions, etc. All things to watch out for after people get vaccinated. 

And I've said over and over the vaccine is not perfect, it's not even great, but it is good. I've diagnosed and treated lots of covid patients who were vaccinated. But the only ones I have admitted were extremely old (one was over 100) and they were admitted not for hypoxia/respiratory failure, but for weakness. I know of one vaccinated person who was admitted and died, was also extremely old

Meanwhile I have seen a lot of young and healthy, but unvaccinated, people get really sick and require hospitalization. 

That's my experience, and it's the same experience with everyone working in the ED and hospitals, and it's what the literature shows..

Pretty sure I've never said the unvaccinated are jeopardizing the health of others. I may have said something like that early in the vaccination efforts, but right now it seems that the vaccinated can still carry enough viral load to be infective.

Dude (ette?), I'm not Fauci, or Al Gore screaming about climate change. I'm just a guy swimming in the misery of covid every shift. Listen to me, or dont. I dont really care.


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Danaus29 said:


> I don't believe it since the hospitals no longer test vaccinated patients


We test vaccinated patients, not sure why anyone wouldn't test sick patients. If it's not covid, ya gotta keep fishing till ya find a source to treat.

Note - I dont know what Pony said that makes anyone think they should be banned. I certainly hope they are not banned. Some people are so entrenched in their beliefs that no amount of info can change it. Like the vagina-headed code pink idjits who scream about a lot of inane stuff. Just no changing their mind.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

boatswain2PA said:


> We test vaccinated patients, not sure why anyone wouldn't test sick patients. If it's not covid, ya gotta keep fishing till ya find a source to treat.


Hubby knows people who went to the hospital sick, but not sick enough to be admitted, who were sent home without testing because they were vaccinated. He doesn't know anyone who was sick enough to be admitted. Ohio also no longer does contact tracing, despite the health dept having job openings for contact tracing posted on their website.

I was going to post Ohio guidelines for testing but there are none.


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## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

I can see this happening. I send people home all the time with minimal symptoms without any testing at all. Vitals normal, well appearing, low risk (including vaccinations), minor symptoms....follow up with primary care cause you are in the EMERGENCY department.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

When I went in to the emergency room short of breath and with chest pains I was tested for the flu even though I had a flu shot.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Danaus29 said:


> I'm missing something. What did Pony say that was so wrong?* Or was there more to the post which has been deleted?*
> 
> People on this forum have stated that those who don't get the shot should be denied medical attention and deserve to die. Where was the outrage over those comments?


I didn't delete anything from it. 

And you're right. When the comments about denying medical care to those who refuse to participate in dangerous medical experiments were made, the sound of crickets was deafening.


----------



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

As for media hype, here is a story on MSN about what they call a healthy 16 year old girl who wasn't vaccinated and is in the hospital fighting pneumonia from COVID. Another site has a recent picture of her in the hospital and she is obviously obese, probably weighing at least twice her normal weight. Why did MSN say she was healthy when obesity is the biggest comorbidity for COVID?

Titusville 16-year-old fighting COVID pneumonia in both lungs at Arnold Palmer ICU (msn.com)


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

poppy said:


> As for media hype, here is a story on MSN about what they call a healthy 16 year old girl who wasn't vaccinated and is in the hospital fighting pneumonia from COVID. Another site has a recent picture of her in the hospital and she is obviously obese, probably weighing at least twice her normal weight. Why did MSN say she was healthy when obesity is the biggest comorbidity for COVID?
> 
> Titusville 16-year-old fighting COVID pneumonia in both lungs at Arnold Palmer ICU (msn.com)


Why after they showed her picture, did they not call out the co-morbidity that is apparent? Because you're not allowed to comment on people's weight without being accused of fat-shaming. Being obese obviously didn't expose her to the virus, but if some of the reports are to be believed, it did put her at risk to get sick enough to end up in the hospital. Still -- if they have to make a choice between being accused of not telling the whole truth and fat shaming, then it appears telling a portion of the truth is more acceptable.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Pony said:


> Prove that what I posted is "patently false."


You may be on the right side of the argument, but for many wrong reasons.

85% of hospitalized CoViD pts are non-vaccinated...The vaccine works. Period.

While CoV may increase the rate of minor hemolysis and also cause hypercoagulation, that's a minor problem. Hypoxia is caused by ventilation/perfusion mismatch in pts with pneumonia.

Your whole first paragraph is a gross lie.



101pigs said:


> This last part should be deleted and the one who posted it should be barred from this forum.


I have absolutely no tolerance for people who are intolerant of others' opinions.


----------



## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Hiro said:


> Why?


Because @101pigs apparently just had an epiphany that politics shouldn’t be allowed on this subforum… unless he’s the one posting it.

Maybe it’s just until his next lie about how we were told that drinking bleach was the cure for Covid. Maybe he’ll tell us again how we need to fire all the “dam Asian doctors”. 

If there’s one thing this forum needs, it’s more hypocrisy from blatantly racist liars.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

GunMonkeyIntl said:


> Because @101pigs apparently just had an epiphany that politics shouldn’t be allowed on this subforum… unless he’s the one posting it.
> 
> Maybe it’s just until his next lie about how we were told that drinking bleach was the cure for Covid.


Wait.

What?

I'm not supposed to enjoy my favorite mixer with my gin? It's not going to save me from everything from a hangnail to cancer?

Hokey smokes! Say it ain't so!

/s

p.s. I don't think my post was political. <shrug> OTOH, everything these days is political, isn't it? <sigh>

Going to go listen to Dead Milkmen. They understand about bleach.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

boatswain2PA said:


> Medical folks and adminiscritters have done a poor job of using the right words to describe what's going on. We often say a hospital is "full", or "no beds" when that is not the ACTUAL case, but rather we are just using the term colloquially to mean that we can't put another patient in another hospital bed because of the lack of staffing.
> 
> Operationally it doesn't matter WHY I can't admit another patient, it just matters that I can't admit another patient to my hospital so I have to transfer. Operationally it doesn't matter WHY the two tertiary care centers an hour away can't accept transfers ("full" or just "not enough staff to fill more beds"), it just matters that I now have to call secondary level hospitals TWO hours away....which are are also frequently on diversion now. Or the other tertiary centers 3 hours away. BTW, each transfer takes an EMS crew out of service.
> 
> ...


The messaging and management of all this by DC has put good people like you in a very bad situation. I wish it was not so, but you just gave testimony to how it is.

I would like to offer words of encouragement, but words mean nothing, and I have no power to help the situation. 

It eats at us all.


----------



## boatswain2PA (Feb 13, 2020)

Danaus29 said:


> When I went in to the emergency room short of breath and with chest pains I was tested for the flu even though I had a flu shot.


Because your doc was looking to see if you had the flu. Was looking for a reason for your symptoms. You might have been sick enough that he was looking for assurances that it wasn't a serious bacterial infection that needed antibiotics. Or might have had the time/staffing/beds to give you a test and wait. I do the same thing.

I highly doubt anyone is "not testing vaccinated" patients simply because they are vaccinated. After all, we ALL KNOW that vaccinated patients CAN still get sick.



Pony said:


> When the comments about denying medical care to those who refuse to participate in dangerous medical experiments were made, the sound of crickets was deafening


I cant reply to every stupid idea. This is a stupid idea.


poppy said:


> here is a story on MSN


Enuff said.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

boatswain2PA said:


> Apparently you are referring to me, so I'll respond and call you on your BS.
> 
> No where did I call anyone a fool if they don't get it. Yeah, it's hard to not feel frustration with sick patients who haven't gotten it, just like it's hard to not get frustrated with the meth heads, the super-obese, the non-compliant diabetics, etc who suddenly want me to fix everything. However that is their choice, just like it's your choice. I talk to smokers about quitting, I try to get meth heads into treatment, I recommend the super-obese join the Y and get in the pool to start exercising, etc. They may be a fool for getting where they are, and you may be a fool for not getting the vaccine, but I guarantee I'm just as much of a fool in many parts of my life.
> 
> ...


You are in a tough spot. I admire your honesty, and I hope no one here gangs up on you. You seem like a very level headed, smart and strong-willed guy.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

PEOPLE - STOP - Can you not see what we are doing to each other?

We are in this together. We have enemies, but our enemies are not each other.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

101pigs said:


> This last part should be deleted and the one who posted it should be barred from this forum.


Please show me what rule has been broken. Mods don’t silence people because you don’t like their opinion.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

HDRider said:


> PEOPLE - STOP - Can you not see what we are doing to each other?
> 
> We are in this together. We have enemies, but our enemies are not each other.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

doc- said:


> You may be on the right side of the argument, but for many wrong reasons.
> 
> 85% of hospitalized CoViD pts are non-vaccinated...The vaccine works. Period.
> 
> ...


Wow. That's a very strong statement. 

I'm not a liar. Such an accusation is pretty bold, and totally uncalled for.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

mzgarden said:


> Why after they showed her picture, did they not call out the co-morbidity that is apparent? Because you're not allowed to comment on people's weight without being accused of fat-shaming. Being obese obviously didn't expose her to the virus, but if some of the reports are to be believed, it did put her at risk to get sick enough to end up in the hospital. Still -- if they have to make a choice between being accused of not telling the whole truth and fat shaming, then it appears telling a portion of the truth is more acceptable.


I feel there is a benefit to addressing comorbidities and how the vaccinations could be helpful rather than ignoring the cold hard truth. 

The perpetuated myth seems to be that people get sick and will surely die when the truth is people will get sick, many will recover and a large percentage of those who did die were not healthy. 

The big myth in my community focuses on a 'super healthy fitness instructor' who is currently not expected to make it out of ICU. He certainly is 'super healthy' to a degree but what people fail to remember is he got into the fitness industry because he had badly damaged lungs. 

I vaccinated with my eyes wide open. I know it's not perfect, I know it's the best we have at this time and a far cry better than nothing but I really wish that instead of focusing on forcing everybody, which isn't helping the cause at all, we focused more on strongly encouraging those who need it most to understand why it's beneficial for them.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Pony said:


> Wow. That's a very strong statement.
> 
> I'm not a liar. Such an accusation is pretty bold, and totally uncalled for.


Yea, Sorry. It's a lie when you know better but state a falsehood anyway. You probably don't know better-- You either repeated someone else's lie or made an incorrect conclusion based on things you've read.

So let me restate it this way: Everything in that paragraph was false.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

doc- said:


> Yea, Sorry. It's a lie when you know better but state a falsehood anyway. You probably don't know better-- You either repeated someone else's lie or made an incorrect conclusion based on things you've read.
> 
> So let me restate it this way: Everything in that paragraph was false.


No, it isn't entirely wrong.

Here's what I wrote:
*1.) The vaccine has NOT been proven to reduce risk. It has, however, been demonstrated that it increases risk of myriad side effects, and has also been demonstrated that those who get the injection are at least as likely to wind up on a vent for a disease that is more an issue of inability for RBCs to take in O2 than the inability of the lungs to oxygenate those red cells.*

I shot from the hip, and did not carefully weigh my words. Let me rephrase:

There are sources that_ indicate_ that the experimental injection reduces risk. So this is an incorrect statement on my part. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa...

There are, however, other studies that _indicate_ that there are grave risks and negative side-effect events associated with the experimental injection.

There are also studies that _indicate_ the issue is more with damage done to RBCs than damage to the lungs.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Another point.

Some of the non-injection folks simply don’t want to be a test subject. For those people, the potential perceived benefits do not overcome the perceived harms.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Point two:

Some on the no maskers and injection decliners see the harm done to our freedom, our rights, and our society as greater than any benefit of the masks or injections.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

The vax/no vax argument is so odd.

I have heard all your reasons for trying to convince and then coerce someone to get the shot. If you got your shot you got your protection. You can still get infected , you can still infect others. Just like an unvaxed, though they are at a higher risk of getting infected and getting sicker. All your reasons to force someone is just a product of your nature. Some have a nature of resisting something that is suspicious to them. Why can't you respect that?

First it was the mask and all the same BS. This fight is not worth the damage it is causing. You don't fight in a burning house.


----------



## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

If I heard the President he said "only 1 in 5000 vaccinated people test positive per day"
That sounds like a small number, but it's not.
A lot of people are vaccine-hesitant. 

*A new report by researchers at Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh has found that the most highly educated Americans are also the most vaccine-hesitant.*








Study Finds Most Highly Educated Americans Are Also the Most Vaccine Hesitant


Narrative fail.



summit.news


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

po boy said:


> If I heard the President he said "only 1 in 5000 vaccinated people test positive per day"
> That sounds like a small number, but it's not.
> A lot of people are vaccine-hesitant.
> 
> ...


There are a lot of vaccine hesitant people and I was too. All the high pressure sales in the world wouldn't have changed my mind and the less than subtle insults only caused me to dig in deeper. 

I'm staunchly pro choice and believe that forcing the vaccinations has just caused those who are hesitant to dig in deeper. 

Ideally, I'd like to see others choose to vaccinate but if they don't I fully respect their right to choose and still respect every individual regardless of their decision.


----------



## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Point two:
> 
> Some on the no maskers and injection decliners see the harm done to our freedom, our rights, and our society as greater than any benefit of the masks or injections.


This. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Absolutely, positively, no doubt. This.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

You freedoms have not changed. Schools , businesses and other organizations could require vaccinations before.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Hold on, I think we're in for in for a very bumpy ride, trust once broken will be nearly impossible to bring back.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> You freedoms have not changed. Schools , businesses and other organizations could require vaccinations before.


Do you feel you changed somebody's mind with that response?


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> Do you feel you changed somebody's mind with that response?


You never know. Did the post that said otherwise? Did your post?


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

painterswife said:


> You freedoms have not changed. Schools , businesses and other organizations could require vaccinations before.


Your definition of freedom differs from mine, apparently.


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> You never know. Did the post that said otherwise? Did your post?


I was very vaccine hesitant and can assure your anthem did nothing to change my mind and if you're truly honest if people have to choose between a job and a vaccination that they're uncomfortable with, we've taken away their right to make their own medical decisions. 

How is that different from a woman living in Texas?


----------



## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Hiro said:


> Your definition of freedom differs from mine, apparently.


Most of us left school and had some hope we'd be treated as an adult.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> I was very vaccine hesitant and can assure your anthem did nothing to change my mind and if you're truly honest if people have to choose between a job and a vaccination that they're uncomfortable with, we've taken away their right to make their own medical decisions.
> 
> How is that different from a woman living in Texas?


I was required to get vaccinations to immigrate. Canada requires vaccinations for those wishing to travel there.

It is not my anthem. I pointed out a fact.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

painterswife said:


> I was required to get vaccinations to immigrate. Canada requires vaccinations for those wishing to travel there.
> 
> It is not my anthem. I pointed out a fact.


Required vaccinations to subsist seems a specious comparison to that. But, like I said your definition of freedom is different from mine.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

painterswife said:


> I was required to get vaccinations to immigrate. Canada requires vaccinations for those wishing to travel there.
> 
> It is not my anthem. I pointed out a fact.


Duplicate. Deleted.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Hiro said:


> Required vaccinations to subsist seems a specious comparison to that. But, like I said your definition of freedom is different from mine.


Yet something that is normal in this country. This just happens to be a larger instance of it. Would you rather these companies shut down ? They are making business decisions to require vaccination instead.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Wonder if the shots will be required for all those coming through the southern border illegally? Got a feeling they may just get a pass.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

With all due respect, painterswife, your statement that nothing has changed is a falsehood.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> With all due respect, painterswife, your statement that nothing has changed is a falsehood.


As long as it’s sold as being for the greater good, it’s okay to change the handbook and claim everything is still the same.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

wr said:


> As long as it’s sold as being for the greater good, it’s okay to change the handbook and claim everything is still the same.


_We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --*That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends,* it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government._


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

The English curriculum for high school juniors when I was in the classroom was American Literature. The Declaration of Independence was included in the literature books. I taught the meaning of your excerpts. I hope my students remember.


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> You freedoms have not changed. Schools , businesses and other organizations could require vaccinations before.


If that was true then why the biden EXECUTIVE mandates? Example, business over 100 employees get the shot. 99 employees and no need……..


----------



## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

painterswife said:


> Yet something that is normal in this country. This just happens to be a larger instance of it. Would you rather these companies shut down ? They are making business decisions to require vaccination instead.


Why would they shut down ? Check the statistics of the numbers of people that contact covid with little effect, no serious effects, etc. No good reasons to shut down. If the employe wants the shot all is well, being “forced” is not right. Lotteries, increased cost to attend class, loss of job, etc is not right. Legal maybe, but not right.


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Pony said:


> No, it isn't entirely wrong.
> 
> Here's what I wrote:
> *1.) The vaccine has NOT been proven to reduce risk. It has, however, been demonstrated that it increases risk of myriad side effects, and has also been demonstrated that those who get the injection are at least as likely to wind up on a vent for a disease that is more an issue of inability for RBCs to take in O2 than the inability of the lungs to oxygenate those red cells.*
> ...


Nonsense....Hemolytic anemia.is represented by no more than a few case reports in the medical literature. It can occur with ANY infection. incidence of hemolysis in CoViD at DuckDuckGo

The mechanism of death in almost all CoViD pts is viral pneumonia. Get back to us when you understand the term "ventilation/perfusion mismatch."

"Reduce risk" requires a definition of risk. You're right-- the vax doesn't reduce you risk of getting hit by a car or of being sued for breech of promise....But it does reduce your risk of getting infected with the CoV and in particular of requiring hospitalization when you do get sick.

Alice-- the key word in your post is "perceived."

I think that on close analysis, the vax has been role out over such a long period of time (10 months now) it hasn't been of any benefit to the over all course of the epidemic. It may have saved some grief for individuals, but the shape if the curve hasn't changed much-- That shape depends on the ratio of Susceptibles to Recovereds/Immunes-- and the number of R/Is is the same total it would have been if all those vaxed had simply got infected with the bug and recovered. Remember that 99.4% do recover.

I see no "value to society" at this point to get the vax. Do it if you feel your personal risk is high enough.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> With all due respect, painterswife, your statement that nothing has changed is a falsehood.


To pretend to believe nothing has changed shows an unwillingness to grasp basic business concepts.
A hospital that pays a 4 million dollar ransom to black hatters who hacked their computer system also made a business decision. They paid rather than shut down.
The best moves made by successful companies are done proactively and in their own best interests, without cooercion, not as a result of a mandate and to avoid consequence.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Doc said, "Alice-- the key word in your post is "perceived.""

Yessir. I chose my words carefully. Thanks for noticing.


----------



## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

and now this...

Dr. Fauci on why Americans who’ve previously been infected should get vaccinated despite studies showing it’s unnecessary: “I don’t have a really firm answer for you on that” 

CNN Sanjay Gupta, Faucci and Anderson Cooper


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> You freedoms have not changed. Schools , businesses and other organizations could require vaccinations before.


We had confidence in the past.

We have heard too many lies and contradiction.

No one has faith or confidence in our government. This is the price we pay.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> They are making business decisions to require vaccination instead.


The government is forcing business to close, forcing business to require vaccination.

Notice the word force.


----------



## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

HDRider said:


> The government is forcing business to close, forcing business to require vaccination.
> 
> Notice the word force.


In the famous words of Neal Boortz: "Government is force."


----------



## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

I miss Boortz.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

nm


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

po boy said:


> I miss Boortz.


Me too!


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

painterswife said:


> You freedoms have not changed. Schools , businesses and other organizations could require vaccinations before.


And they also could NOT require vaccinations before. If the Senile old Racist's handlers get their way, that particular freedom will be no more.


----------



## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> And they also could NOT require vaccinations before. If the Senile old Racist's handlers get their way, that particular freedom will be no more.


Required vaccinations have been legal according to the Supreme Court for decades. Even when the threat is not imminent.


----------



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Required vaccinations have been legal according to the Supreme Court for decades. Even when the threat is not imminent.


The lies have put a dark cloud over this vax


----------



## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

painterswife said:


> Required vaccinations have been legal according to the Supreme Court for decades. Even when the threat is not imminent.


The Feds are supposed to protect the borders, so requiring vax for travelers in & out of the country is OK...The feds don't have constitutional jurisdiction over local health rules. States can require vax (like for school etc.) There are only a few expressed areas of power for the feds-- The Constittution says they are to provide for the common defense, including foreign policy & immigration, establish a postal service and post roads for it, and to regulate interstate commerce (the implication is that they are to prevent states from impairing commerce)...The bulk of The Constitution is devoted to telling The Feds what they CAN'T do.

Even with a liberal POV that the Feds are to provide for the general welfare, possibly including regulation of healthcare, it's supposed to be done by Congressional legislation, not dictatorial executive orders.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I had classmates on the 1960s and 70s who were not vaccinated. Just sayin’.


----------



## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Alabama's shipments of monoclonal antibody treatments to be cut 30 percent


The treatment can cut a COVID patient's need to be hospitalized by 70 percent.




www.alreporter.com





Harris said the Alabama Department of Public Health sent out a notice to state providers on Wednesday alerting them of the change. He said providers will now only be able to order monoclonal antibody shipments once a week, and HHS will determine how much of each order will be shipped. 

“They estimated that most providers are probably going to get about 70 percent of what they had,” Harris said. “It’s a little hard to understand their explanation, because they say there’s not actually a product shortage, but they’re trying to make sure that any product that hasn’t been used that’s on the shelf here is getting used.”


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

doc- said:


> The Feds are supposed to protect the borders, so requiring vax for travelers in & out of the country is OK...The feds don't have constitutional jurisdiction over local health rules.


And yet they're not.



doc- said:


> States can require vax (like for school etc.) There are only a few expressed areas of power for the feds-- The Constittution says they are to provide for the common defense, including foreign policy & immigration, establish a postal service and post roads for it, and to regulate interstate commerce (the implication is that they are to prevent states from impairing commerce)...The bulk of The Constitution is devoted to telling The Feds what they CAN'T do.
> 
> Even with a liberal POV that the Feds are to provide for the general welfare, possibly including regulation of healthcare, it's supposed to be done by Congressional legislation, not dictatorial executive orders.


And the general welfare clause is not a stand alone clause. It's defined by the enumerated powers.


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## kinderfeld (Jan 29, 2006)

no really said:


> Alabama's shipments of monoclonal antibody treatments to be cut 30 percent
> 
> 
> The treatment can cut a COVID patient's need to be hospitalized by 70 percent.
> ...


Why not ask for a current inventory and base shipments on that...rather than create a shortage?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

kinderfeld said:


> Why not ask for a current inventory and base shipments on that...rather than create a shortage?


They are putting in a usage system. Instead of just ordering and stockpiling, they will move it to a system where need and use is the parameters. This is because more states are using it and some have been stockpiling it.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

kinderfeld said:


> Why not ask for a current inventory and base shipments on that...rather than create a shortage?


That would make sense wouldn't it? When a treatment is needed the meds should be available, especially when there are few reliable treatments in use.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

no really said:


> That would make sense wouldn't it? When a treatment is needed the meds should be available, especially when there are few reliable treatments in use.


Bigger question-
Does it work? With serious side effects in over 1/3rd of cases, how do you improve on an infection that is survived by 99.4% of pts? In trials on the very sick, single tx didn't work at all, and combination of two types saved only 1 extra in every 3 pts.








Evidence conflicts over efficacy of monoclonal antibodies in severe COVID


"We are left with evidence of benefit from interleukin-6 inhibitors, at least under some circumstances."




www.cidrap.umn.edu





For early treatment to reduce need for hospitalization, you gotta treat 100 pts to reduce the hosp rate from 3.3% to 1.3%, ie- Needed To Treat Number-- 50 to save 1 bad outcome. https://www.winonadailynews.com/new...cle_0f6c9646-f3e4-5e7c-87cd-ebe60ea74b87.html


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

painterswife said:


> Required vaccinations have been legal according to the Supreme Court for decades. Even when the threat is not imminent.


I don't understand how you are not getting this. The FEDERAL government hasn't the authority to require vaccines, so, the Senile old Racist making rules that forces companies to require vaccinations is not Constitutional.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> I don't understand how you are not getting this. The FEDERAL government hasn't the authority to require vaccines, so, the Senile old Racist making rules that forces companies to require vaccinations is not Constitutional.


I’m not sure why you’re bringing Trump into this but you aren’t the actual arbiter of the Constitution. 
You’re not a lawyer or a scholar of the Constitution though you may think you are.
I had dinner last month with a federal judge and he said that vaccine mandates are in fact, Constitutional.
The SCOTUS might not agree but I’m guessing he knows more about it than you do.
Do you think income taxes are constitutional?


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Lisa in WA said:


> And here in Coeur D’Alene where they now have Army medical staff on site helping.
> 
> I’m not sure why you’re bringing Trump into this but you aren’t the actual arbiter of the Constitution.
> You’re not a lawyer or a scholar of the Constitution though you may think you are.
> ...


Income taxes are theft.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Lisa in WA said:


> And here in Coeur D’Alene where they now have Army medical staff on site helping.
> 
> I’m not sure why you’re bringing Trump into this but you aren’t the actual arbiter of the Constitution.
> You’re not a lawyer or a scholar of the Constitution though you may think you are.
> ...


Where did @Farmerga say anything about Trump in his/her post?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Are coronavirus vaccine mandates unconstitutional? Here’s what a legal expert says.


Key items for consideration include a 1905 U.S. Supreme Court case and the efficacy of the COVID shot.




www.silive.com


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Are coronavirus vaccine mandates unconstitutional? Here’s what a legal expert says.
> 
> 
> Key items for consideration include a 1905 U.S. Supreme Court case and the efficacy of the COVID shot.
> ...


The wannabe tyrants in DC think they are tyrants. The irony is, your Governor has more legal authority than they do, your state legislature has more than your Governor, and, most likely your local Sheriff has more than any of them. In the end, you are either a serf or a citizen and you get to decide.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Lisa in WA said:


> I’m not sure why you’re bringing Trump into this but you aren’t the actual arbiter of the Constitution.
> You’re not a lawyer or a scholar of the Constitution though you may think you are.
> I had dinner last month with a federal judge and he said that vaccine mandates are in fact, Constitutional.
> The SCOTUS might not agree but I’m guessing he knows more about it than you do.
> Do you think income taxes are constitutional?


You know who the Senile old Racist is and it isn't Trump. Yes, vaccine mandates are Constitutional, when private buisnesses and states implement them. It is NOT Constitutional for the FEDERAL government (I.E. the current administration "led" by the Senile old Racist.) to force anyone to take a vaccine. (Other than a requirement for entry into the country)

And yes, because of the unfortunate passage of the 16th amendment to the United States Constitution, income taxes are Constitutional.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Summary:
The Supreme Court upheld a STATE’s right to mandate vaccinations. It’s a fine point, but important. 

However, at the state level, there are still exemptions.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Are coronavirus vaccine mandates unconstitutional? Here’s what a legal expert says.
> 
> 
> Key items for consideration include a 1905 U.S. Supreme Court case and the efficacy of the COVID shot.
> ...


Just goes to show how stupid "experts" are- the goof gives example after example of STATE & LOCAL mandates being OK, states SPECIFICALLY that The Const DOES NOT include this in the enumerated powers, and yet he STILL concludes a federal mandate via an unconstitutional Executive Order will be allowed by the Supreme Court.

He must live in Bizarro World....This is why our legal system is so effed up.

While any mandate requiring THIS vax is NOT supported by the science, a mandate legislated by Congress via normal channels would be constitutional, if we analyze it logically and not with prejudice based on politics.

Executive orders-- intended to take care of minor details of legislation, like naming post office buildings or declaring a National Hot Dog Day-- have come to be grossly abused since BO avoided the wishes of Congress on immigration matters. Trump had to follow suit (no pun intended) to erase BO's abuses, and now The Chinese Ambassador to the US is starting the cycle again with his own dictatorial moves.

Biden admitted himself that his moves were "probably unconstitutional."...Having sworn to uphold the Constitution, isn't that cause for impeachment by his own admission?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Excellent post, but I think you need another cup of coffee.


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