# Home Made systems versus Manufactured and professional install



## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

This past weekend I attended some solar hot water classes sponsored by the Midwest Renewable Energy Association (MREA) in Milwaukee WI. Good classes, the instructor was very knowledgable and I learned a lot plus it was good review on what I already knew. It was the classes to learn to become a SDHW Site Assessor. I took it for my own knowledge growth and not a career path.

Currently I'm in the process of building my own panels with Sunray Solar abosorbers similar to what Gary did for his shed as seen on www.builditsolar.com for home heating, not just SDHW. Been a slow process, but getting there. I also plan on adding real manufactured panels and storage tanks, kind of make a learning experience between the two. This is not a fast process as time and money are not unlimited in my case.

In these classes they are stressing that you want to build systems that last 30-40 years. I understand that if I was a person in the business of installing SDHW for a living you need good long lasting equipment. But the instructors in this class were dead set against any type of homemade systems, especially anything made of wood. In one presentation there was even a picture of Gary's storage tank and the comment was "we strongly do not recommend anything like this".

So, my question is, do you feel there's a place for the DIY type systems that Gary and others have put together? I believe there is, but a person needs to understand the implications of going that route, such as increased maintenance and costs over the long term (i.e. possibly a new liner over time or new glazing etc etc). 

Thoughts?


----------



## Fat Charlie (Sep 9, 2010)

I saw an old boat made out of wood once. It seemed to do quite well.

The main issue with DIY systems is that the world is full of dangerous amateurs. The standard level of engineering in a homebrew system is "yeah, that ought to hold," and that scares professionals- especially professionals on repair jobs. On a manufactured system there was a design process. Materials, designs and techniques were tested and evaluated. Failed parts can be identified and reordered. A DIY system is a potential horror show, with materials selected based on price and availability rather than appropriateness. Design and construction are only as good as the guy who got it into his head to do it. A Pro called in to service a problem DIY system will probably just back away and quote you a new full system, and rightfully so. 

From Gary's site:


> I've laid out the structural logic that I used to design my tank below. I'm not a tank designer by any stretch of the imagination, so I don't guarantee that this is the best approach, or even that it will hold together.
> 
> I used only one tension tie at the mid point, but 2 tension ties at the 1/3 points would probably be better.
> 
> ...


Now none of this is meant in any way to cast Gary in a bad light or to imply that he is at all inaccurate. I hope to make one of those systems this summer myself- I just wouldn't expect a professional installer to be willing to service it 10 years from now, and if I move I expect I'll have to take it with me.


----------



## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I think Gary is quite a bit different than the ***average***DIY'er in that he can look at a issue and reason it out.
And he has the skills to build stuff....

Most folks just want a "plug and play" system . . so if they start making collectors out of (gasp) wood and plastic . . .well you really don't expect those to last 30 years do you . . ??...
My collectors are framed with 6061 Al and glazed with low iron tempered glass . . . . .NEVER need replacing (unless a stone hits them)

Face it DIY'ers are big on cutting corners . . . .so what happens to the 30 year thing then???????

Your class guys were just trying to stress that it is proper to do the job with Quality materials. . .period.


----------



## woodsy (Oct 13, 2008)

Depends on the persons ability to build things that will hold together, withstand the elements and water pressure of whatever size tank he decides on in the case of a drainback/heat exchange type system like gary built.

Probably not for the average joe who has little building/plumbing/electrical experience , I'll give the instructors that much .

I'm pretty happy with my DIY SHW system modeled after Garys.
Going on two trouble free years and showing good savings from it. $400 1st year, it adds up over 10-20 years , LOL.
Expecting it to have paid for itself after three years or less of use.
Hoping to get 20 or more out of it, might have to replace the circulator pump some day.

Not everyone can afford fancy and expensive manufactured products so some of us do it ourselves.


----------



## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Professionally engineered and installed systems are crazy expensive. However they will have been over-engineered, and tested, UL approved and if they were screw-up there is a warranty and insurance.

It makes sense that they are more expensive.

I have built enough things in my life, that I have had to come back to them after 10 and 20 years and fix them. I had no idea of the ways that materials can fail.

If you do not mind, re-designing and re-manufacturing a system after 15 years. Then your good material for DIY.


----------



## adamtheha (Mar 14, 2007)

In my opinion, unless the system you are building has potential for being dangerous, like a steam boiler or something, a well though out, and carefully built DIY can save a lot of money over a manufactured system. Manufactured systems can have flaws and defects too, it's not a guarantee of perfection.
As long as the builder selects materials based on a thorough understanding of why that material is best, such as using copper piping instead of galvanized or plastic, there is no reason IMHO why such a system could not last just as long. 10-20 years is a long time, and most mechanical things will need maintenance, no matter who built them!
I personally prefer building my own system out of manufactured components, like solar systems, and I would love to try some of those evacuated tube solar collectors.


----------



## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi,
This is Gary, so I'm probably a little prejudiced on this issue 

the EPDM lined wood tanks have a very solid track record -- they have been around a long time. The wood frame structure will last forever as long as its in a dry play. The EPDM liners will last a very long time as long as you don't run the temperatures too high -- 170F is a good working maximum. I have gotten emails from people who installed these tanks in the 80's and are just now doing the first liner replacement. That's longer than most commercial tanks will last, and with the EPDM tank, you just replace the liner for $50, and you are good to go again.

The key thing is that if the tank is built correctly and installed correctly (neither one being difficult), the wood is never exposed to water -- it will last just as long as your wood house lasts.

There are commercial versions of designs that use EPDM liners inside of frames -- they have been in business for years and years, and appear to have a good track record. STSS is one of them.

The collectors I use have wood frames. For the Solar Shed and the new $2K project, they are essentially built right onto or into the house structure. I don't see why with a little maintenance (painting) they won't last the life of the house. Well made commercial collectors can last 30 years with little to no maintenance, and that's a plus for them, but they cost $30 a sqft vs $6 a sqft for the DIY ones -- is it really worth pay 5 times more to avoid a little painting every 10 years?

There are DIY metal frame alternatives if this is a sticking point -- for example:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/KenSoffitCollector/Main.htm
In addition, some people have taken the approach of using prepainted aluminum flashing material (the kind that comes in rolls) to cover the wood frame -- this also seems fine to me.

I guess the big difference that you really have to think about is that the average solar commercially installed DHW system costs $8000. It had better last for 30 years, because it will take about that long to pay back its initial price. You can build the $1K system for (you guessed it), $1000. It will pay pack its initial cost in 2 to 3 years depending on your fuel etc. 
I believe that it will also last for 30 years -- it may need some maintenance along the way, but that's no different than your house -- you have to paint it and do a bit of other maintenance. If you compare the overall maintenance workload to a closed loop commercial system that uses antifreeze that has to be tested every year, and replaced from time to time, I don't think the overall maintenance workload is much different. The parts like pumps and controllers are the same ones used on commercial systems, so maintenance on those is the same.

Its always been a puzzle to me why commercial solar DHW systems are so expensive -- it just does not seem like there is $8000 worth of stuff there?
But, the upshot is that it makes for the best opportunity I know of for a DIY project that really saves a ton of money.

I have talked to and gotten feedback from some very well known pros in the industry -- people who have been designing and installing systems and writing for Home Power and other magazines for decades -- people who's opinions I greatly respect. All of this feedback has been very positive -- I've been told time and again that the design is very solid.

I have a new system that does both space and water heating -- I call it the $2K system. I'd suggest you read over this one as I've included a few refinements (mostly from other people who have built systems and sent in descriptions). I also took a lot of time to document it, so there is a more complete description on both the design and build issues -- it runs into about a 100 pages total and is more like a book than an web article.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/DHWplusSpace/Main.htm

I've had feedback from a couple people who used the SunRay absorber plates, and both people liked them -- I think you will be happy with them.

Gary


----------



## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

Gary,
I don't even have a dog in this fight, but have been trying to stay up to date as much as possible with solar. Something that I am looking into in the future.

The only point I have is to say Thank-you for all the time and effort you put into each post to educate us. It is appreciated ! :clap:

Tarheel


----------



## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

My first thought was what the instructor had to sell.

There are probably things like boilers and such that should at least be designed by a pro but solar heated air or water? When I get my solar heating stuff there's no way I'm paying 5-8 times as much for something I can do myself. I'll just find some solid plans (like Gary's) and follow the design.


----------



## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

The cost of a commercial system has been a mystery to me as well. I've just decided that the sellers (not sure at what level, wholesaler, distributor or retailer) are cashing in on the rebate programs. If there weren't any rebate programs (I'm not saying there shouldn't be any) what would these commercial systems cost?

As far as the instructor goes he was a solar installer in a previous career, but today is just an instructor. I wasn't aware of anything that he was selling or representing. That's one of the reasons that I took the Site Assessor class, it's meant to train people on analyzing a specific site for SDHW and is meant to be totally independent of specific equipment or design. It's a very good course and I was impressed by the information presented as well as the level with which they are trying to train people to be reputable and honest, something very lacking in this field until recently.

But, despite their bias I will continue with my plans and with any luck actually heat my house with a little DIY solar next winter. Just wish I could clone myself so I'd have more time!


----------



## Fat Charlie (Sep 9, 2010)

Gary- I don't think you're prejudiced. I think you've studied, worked on it and decided. Come to think of it, I'm not prejudiced either- I can do things with wood, I can do things with copper pipe and I can do math. That's why your site is high up in my bookmarks.

Pros tend to wear blinders, and they need to. They can't try to sell systems that "ought to" work fine. Getting a product past the "ought to" level is expensive. That's where the problem with SHW comes in. It's a product that needs to have a warranty and be insurable, but what they're selling is some pipes that you lay out in the sun. It's hard to justify a high retail price for that, but commercial production and distribution requires a high price. 

The "ought to" level of engineering is just fine for a DIY solar system. It's just a matter of putting low pressure plumbing out in the sun and keeping it protected from the elements, isn't it? I'm confident that I can build a box in my basement that can hold water, and I'm confident that I can get pipes to hold together. I'm just not going to hire myself out to do it for other peoples' houses, is all. I think that's where Kevingr's instructor was coming from.


----------



## garyinmississip (Aug 23, 2010)

Fat Charlie said:


> ...but what they're selling is some pipes that you lay out in the sun. It's hard to justify a high retail price for that, but commercial production and distribution requires a high price.


Actually, what they are selling is their expertise, knowledge, warranty and support.


----------



## Fat Charlie (Sep 9, 2010)

In the end, it's a bundle of pipes lying out in the sun- but the devil is in the details. The manufacturer's expertise, knowledge, warranty and support are what makes their collectors so expensive. 
How many DIYers have built multiple prototypes of collectors and evaluated their relative performance side by side? 
How many DIYers count their time as a cost in their projects?
How many DIYers could duplicate the collectors they've built and promise someone that their new collector will last X number of years? 

A retail product's cost is going to be high no matter what you do. A professional installer is going to have to stick with those products because he's an installer, not a manufacturer. His business is to spec out a system and get everything together and running, not custom design, fabrication and installation. He doesn't want to touch anything with a 10 foot pole unless its manufacturer will back it.

To answer the OP's question, there is a place for DIY systems. It's just not in the same place that professional installers live in.


----------



## woodsy (Oct 13, 2008)

I don't think i would have had much luck finding a professional to hook up my homeowner fabricated wood stove coil loop either .
The wood stove loop is a T off from the solar loop and can be used in conjunction with the solar or separately.


----------



## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

The ol' "fear factor" - i.e. if you don't buy the factory made and overpriced gear, your project will be a miserable failure... don't buy into it.


----------



## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Ok my attitude is do I want a system that I have to call a company 4oo miles away to have them send out a serviceman for $100 bucks an hour to replace a valve. or do I want a system I can work on myself .
personally I prefer a system I designed and built because if it does break down I can fix it, I know where to look and what to do plus if i dont like what its doing I can redo it without it costing me a mortgage


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I'm not so sure I'd be a gracious as Gary if my work was singled out for undue criticism and my copywritten material was used without permission to do so.


----------



## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

Regarding Gary's photo's. In the powerpoint presentation the pictures all had references from where they came from. Gary's pictures actually came from another website and not builditsolar.


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

He still has the copyright, no matter where they sourced it from.


----------



## woodsy (Oct 13, 2008)

People have been making their own SHW collectors out of copper piping and wood frames for decades. 
If you think you have the skills or are capable of learning them then by all means go for it.
I found it to be a very rewarding experience.

Gary's website has all the info you need for free and i for one am grateful 
to Build it Solar !


----------



## sticky_burr (Dec 10, 2010)

well first i'll go at it logically and not ranting 
installers want to stick with companiees for liability and ease of install and 1/2 the finished cost is install
owners want company made cause its easy,warentees and to get rebates
companies want want you to use them cause it makes money and its already invested in bribes and lobbist
who exactly is thinking about anything for the customer? none
will the very nice vac tube solar with stand a hail storm every year or two for 30 years? 
the benovolant companies didnt start this or cars or well pretty much most the big stuff. it was started by guys in their shed with an idea so saying a guy in his shed in his idea cant do it is laughable.
also @ rebates why would i spend 1200 for a home evaulation plus what 300-1000 for install to get a 1500$ rebate? and likely get more of a mark up on the tankless heater or furnace or .. what have you


----------

