# Informative Websites for Turkish Breeds



## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Written by Turks, translated into English. Speaks of many Turkish breeds including what they consider the Anatolian breed to be. Also refutes the oft-repeated story about the "only real Kangals come from Sivas region":

http://www.turkkarabas.com/english/

The book advertised on the website by the way, is excellent. I highly recommend reading it.

Also an excellent training article and website for Kangals from Kangal Mex. Trifino Trefis is a great Kangal breeder in Mexico, a friend of mine on Facebook, and he has some incredible dogs. This is an excellent article:

http://kangalmexico.wordpress.com/2010/07/15/basic-principals-of-kangal-dog-training/


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

a little turkocentric but still a good in your face to the people that coninue to insist the anatolian is a turkish breed.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Pops2 said:


> a little turkocentric but still a good in your face to the people that coninue to insist the anatolian is a turkish breed.


I think most people who have researched the Anatolian realize that there is no breed in Turkey called Anatolian shepherd. Anatolian Shepherd is a breed created by the western world from various similar Turkish shepherd dogs and have been bred to a specific standard. Nothing wrong with that; the same thing has happened to many regional breeds of the world. I do love some of the native Turkish breeds but I love the Anatolian as well and it was much easier to obtain an Anatolian.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Pops2 said:


> a little turkocentric but still a good in your face to the people that coninue to insist the anatolian is a turkish breed.


LOL I do agree with you....


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

BarbadosSheep said:


> I think most people who have researched the Anatolian realize that there is no breed in Turkey called Anatolian shepherd. Anatolian Shepherd is a breed created by the western world from various similar Turkish shepherd dogs and have been bred to a specific standard. Nothing wrong with that; the same thing has happened to many regional breeds of the world. I do love some of the native Turkish breeds but I love the Anatolian as well and it was much easier to obtain an Anatolian.


i've seen people in this very forum claim the anatolian is an ancient turkish breed, so there are still people out there making that claim. i will say the work oriented breeders of the anatolian have done a *tremendous* job of making chicken salad from chicken poop.


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

Pops2 said:


> i've seen people in this very forum claim the anatolian is an ancient turkish breed, so there are still people out there making that claim. i will say the work oriented breeders of the anatolian have done a *tremendous* job of making chicken salad from chicken poop.



:yuck: you could have told me that before I took a bite.


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## Faithful (Jul 15, 2011)

We have had Anatolians for mamy years with our goats.
http://www.livestockguardianangels.com


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## R&R Farm (Jun 12, 2008)

I'll try and be objective here but the "informative site" seems a little promotional of the Kangal breed. You can find anything on the web backing any point you want to posit. Case in point is this site http://www.anatoliandog.org/isik-001.htm that seems to offer a contrasting view from a fellow who has also done extensive research on the Turkish breeds....Mike


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Guvenor Isek is known for being a big fan of and friends with, Anatolian breeders so I was not surprised to read his version of what is what. Like I said someplace else, this is an age-old argument that'll never go away I'm sure (the Anatolian/Kangal debate). There seems to be a lot out there on both sides of the fence. Anyhow Mike thanks for posting the other side of the coin, it helps people to read both sides.

PS: Mike, There is a very thought provoking article on that link you shared, on "gentrification of working breeds", a very provocative article, I think I will share it with some Spanish Mastiff people. Thanks again for posting the link.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

oh yeah very promotional. while not meaning to, your link backed up what Kangal supporters & turks have been saying for decades. the Anatolian Sheperd Dog is a breed created in the USA by crossbreeding turkish dogs of various types. the way i read it is that there are a few other turkish breeds of LGD floating around over there. it would be nice if the turks would support the other aboriginal breeds like they have the Kangal, Ahkbash, Kars & Tazi.
if inclusive people had their way the walker, english (redtick), & bluetick coonhounds would still be english **** & fox hounds. the big point of contention for me is that it really is americans telling turks we know more about their dogs than they do. we don't presume to tell the brits we know their terriers better than them. we don't presume to tell the japs we know there inu better than them. we don't presume to tell the gerrys we know their pointers better than them. but for some reason we're cool w/ telling the turks & the hundred different peoples of central asia that they don't know squat about the dogs they've developed over centuries.
it's rude, arrogant & worst of all it's factually incorrect.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Pops, I noticed too the huge variation in appearance of what is called an Anatolian. Of the show ring Anatolians here in the US I have seen photos of, my biggest complaint: lack of substance, bone and height. Really on the light side, almost sighthoundish, some of them. These are dogs that are supposed to be able to tackle a wolf, right? The height factor also a problem here in US with a lot of our Kangals who tend to run on the small and light side compared to some working kangal lines in the home country. The 'gentrification' article I touched on above, could be applied to sooooo many working breeds IMO. Not just Turkish.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

if by gentrification, you mean eliminating working drive to make pets or breeding for a specific look by exagerating a single or few physical traits while ignoring working ability. well it is & will remain a threat to all warking dogs as long as the show ring exists & people buy dogs in impulse.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

That is precisely what I am referring to. The 'petification' of working dogs. The bane of my existence....it has done more to ruin working breeds in this country than anything. I was lucky to find my Pyrs out of a long line of unregistered dogs that go back up into Idaho lines and were probably initially brought over with some Basques. They have the work and guard drive left in them.


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## R&R Farm (Jun 12, 2008)

Pops you seem very contentious about the Anatolian issue and if you are only somehow concerned with defending the Turkish people's honor I commend you. But arguing about a breed's name seems like semantics to me. There must be some decent dogs around that go by that name and, from what I understand of genetics, they were not created out of thin air. To develop good dogs from unfit ones (as you pointed out) is synonymous with "making chicken salad from chicken poop". Both are impossible....Mike


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

it's not just a name. the anatolian originators (air force family) started w/ mutts from turkey & decided they were a breed. instead of writing their own standard they took the existing turkish standard for the ahkbash and added any color permissable. they then went whole hog on the publicity and in the process suborned the ahkbash & the kangal as varieties within the anatolian. the first buyers found that when their pups grew up they couldn't meet the standard. however since then some of the original buys were dedicated enough to rewrite the standard & start developing some consistancy in the breed. fortunately they also focused on working ability and got a lot of consistancy in that. basically the anatolian people started the whole mess by starting w/ a pack of lies. what they did was the equivalent of german sheperd people claiming the doberman & rottie are just varieties within the german sheperd breed.
the anatolian is a good working breed made in america. it just isn't a turkish breed. what bothers me is the basic arrogance & dishonesty of trying to take over the kangal & ahkbash. there is enough of that in the show community, we don't need that in the working community too.


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## R&R Farm (Jun 12, 2008)

Well, that's definitely some interesting breed history that I've never heard before. Are there any web sources that a fellow could go to to do a little more research on this subject?...Mike


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

it's been years since i read the expose by one of the original buyers but it is on the net somewhere.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Hi Mike,

I found this snippet:

_Anatolians were first brought to the United States by military personnel. The first recorded Anatolian arrived in the 1960's, and by the 1970's a club had been formed, It was during the late 1970's and early 1980's that the breed started to find its way in great numbers to ranches and farms across the United States and Canada as a means to prevent predation of flocks by coyotes, wolves. bear and other carnivores.Although the breed is exhibited at dog shows and obedience trials, its primary objective is as a livestock guardian dog, and he must keep his centuries-old instincts if he is to survive as a real breed, and not just a "show machine"._

On this page:

http://www.anatoliandog.org/ukc-asd-article.htm 

My dog partner up in MT knew the guy who initially brought some over in fact he almost went to work for him running his kennel. I guess he had a huge number of dogs. David Nelson.


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## MonsterMalak (Apr 15, 2011)

Let me first say, that people should judge the dog, not the name.

Although I feel it is a fact that the Anatolian is a breed much comprised of a varied genetic base of Turkish LGD breeds, there are many great LGD Anatolians. Actually, there are many of them I would rather breed than some of the Kangal bloodlines in the USA. The orignial Anatolian Imports were without any thought or concern for LGD work, the latter imports were with thought and purpose.

Where I do find argument, is in the US mentality to describe, limit, and take over the Turkish breeds. A friend wanted to advertise their Turkish Kangals in the Hobby Farms Magazine. They were told they had to call them the Kangal Dog, and drop the Turkish. I feel this may be somewhat a result in the KDCA trying to remove their identity from Turkey, as they have created MANY ENEMIES with their arrogance and control measures. Might be why they try to block registration of any IMPORTED KANGALS. Do not want to loose their Monopoly.

Another USA misinformation campaign of Turkish breeds is in the USA description of the KANGALS.
In Turkey, the people have Kangals all over the country. Many different types and bloodlines exist. Some of the bloodlines are many of hundreds of years old. Panters, Karyaka, Karabash, Akyaka are just a few. Plus the sub breeds often refered to as Kangals in Turkey as Malakli and Guregh which should be considered their own breed.
But the USA Kangal people went on to describe the Kangal as the Sivas Kangal, otherwise locking out all of the other Turkish Kangals. It is for this reason that I choose to refer to my Kangals as Turkish. 

I do understand the reasoning for the confusion, as the Landrace and Regional breeds of Turkey are many and varied. There are many regional breeds of LGDs still unknown outside of Turkey such as the Yoruk, Kars, Guregh (Boz), Akyaka, Malakli and many still un named.

So, with any subject of much confusion, a person just has to judge for themself. Look at the dog, the parents, and the need you have.

Different dogs have different abilities, personalities, work methods along with their abilities to handle different environments.

Somewhere out there is a dog for your needs. Whatever it is called!


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

MonsterMalak said:


> Where I do find argument, is in the US mentality to describe, limit, and take over the Turkish breeds. A friend wanted to advertise their Turkish Kangals in the Hobby Farms Magazine. They were told they had to call them the Kangal Dog, and drop the Turkish. I feel this may be somewhat a result in the KDCA trying to remove their identity from Turkey, as they have created MANY ENEMIES with their arrogance and control measures. Might be why they try to block registration of any IMPORTED KANGALS. Do not want to loose their Monopoly.


MM, I hear you.....grin.... Sometimes it appears to me like there are a lot of control oriented individuals out there in the dog world who can't handle healthy competition, or are consumed with having a monopoly, like you say, on a particular bred in this country....and not just in the Kangal department.... The pitiful efforts some people go through to try and discredit someone who decides they too will not only own this breed, but breed it, and who they think are 'encroaching' on what they perceive to be 'their' breed and 'their' turf, well, the lengths some people go to are amazing. You and I both have heard through the grapevine what some people are saying about our efforts to bring certain breeds over here from abroad.  :happy2:
:hysterical: 
:flameproofundies: 
And yes by the way, I found out it was our friends at the KDCA who said the word Turkish had to come out in the ad, and it had to be just Kangal DOG...and no Turkish...because that is what they insist on calling it. 

And yes, somewhere out there IS an LGD dog for everyone, whether it be common or exotic, purebred or crossbred.... :clap:


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