# If you had any doubt



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

where this country is headed this story should clear it up for you...

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) â Authorities say someone drove across the Oklahoma Capitol lawn and knocked over a Ten Commandments monument that a group has been suing to have removed, smashing it to pieces.
Oklahoma Highway Patrol Capt. George Brown says the person drove into the monument on the statehouse steps Thursday night, abandoned the vehicle and fled. Brown says the vehicle was impounded and authorities are searching it for evidence.

The 6-foot-tall granite monument was erected in 2012 after Republican state Rep. Mike Ritze and his family paid nearly $10,000 for it. The American Civil Liberties Union had been suing to have the monument removed, arguing it violates the Oklahoma Constitution.

*Other groups have since asked to erect statues on the Capitol grounds, including one that wants to erect a 7-foot-tall statue of Satan.*

http://www.sfgate.com/news/us/article/Disputed-Oklahoma-Ten-Commandments-statue-smashed-5845127.php


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I know of a court house that has a large bronze plaque with the Ten Commandments on a wall INSIDE. Woo hoo, I'd bet that would get someone's panties in a twist. Some how I think that would be the last time that happened.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

ehh, it wouldn't bother me and doesn't to see the 10 Commandments anywhere. 

When we lived in Georgia, one of the people that spoke so vehemntly to keep the tablets at the local courthouse was found to be cheating on his wife. So to me, it just showed how some people are really just big hypocrites.

I could care less what they put on the wall, floor, lawn of the public buildings. But I do see the point that if one group wants to put things (in this case the 10 commandments0 then other groups have the right to put up items. 

But man, in a large muslim county, could you imagine the outrage if they wanted to put some of their religious texts on the courthouse? Heck, long as the courthouse uses logic to rule, I don't care what is on the walls or what statues they put up.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Christians are just as bad as the rest of them,IMO.

The separation of church and state,has been an obvious and onging heated debate for decades.

So what do the Christians do?

They pull an* in your face *and finagle to install, a 10 commandments statue on on Government property.


People don't like it and Christians are the misunderstood victims.



> The proposal to put up the statue was made in response to the placement of a monument to the 10 Commandments, installed in November 2012 on the capitol grounds. According to an inscription on the monument, it was donated by Dr. Mike Ritze, a state representative, and his wife and children.


Here is one where Satanist want to put a a bronze Satan statue, too.


http://www.sfgate.com/news/nation-w...-s-statue-of-Satanic-figure-under-5454360.php

Okey -dokey, freedom of religion right? 

I'm sick of all this.

People don't need the 10 commandments to know right-from-wrong.


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## joseph97297 (Nov 20, 2007)

I've never understood why Christians would want the 10 commandments to be posted anyway and yet don't fight to have the words of Jesus posted. After all, if you are going to try and follow the 10, then shouldn't you follow the other 600 plus? Oh, wait, the old "Those laws don't apply anymore' will get trotted out. Well, if some of the laws don't apply, then why all the hoopla over the 10 commandments from the same book?

Really, I could understand if people were fighting to have Jesus quotes put up, like over the courthouse you could have this one:

"And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also"

That would really throw a monkey wrench into the legal proceedings.

Or better yet, an easy way to settle this is to let everyone that wants to post or put a statue up on Public property do so in a a controlled area, and then we wait....... and surely the strongest and 'true' G-d will smite down the other statues thus erasing the need to have lawsuits or discussions galore.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

In my count, Vinton County, Ohio, I can not enter the "Public" court house unless I consent to an electronic search.

The Constitution of the United Stated of America indicates that I have a God Given right to freedom from an illegal search. A legal search would require a warrant. To get a warrant someone would have to swear under an oath that they have evidence that I had commited a crime. Probable cause, it is called. The crime would need to be identified and stated, and what was being searched for would need to be stated in the warrant; then the judge issuing the warrant would need to sign it.


In Vinton county, Ohio you get searched just because you are there or you do not get into the "PUBLIC" court house.

We have many officials at county and township level who took an oath of office. In that oath they swore to protect the Constitution of the united states of america. I guess they lied (before God). They do, all of them seem to be happy with the pay that the receive, and the insurance coverage, and more that a few with the 24/7 vehicles that the are issued.

Welcome to the county (Vinton County, Ohio) in the police state. 

All of the administrative emplees are involved in this fraud, I know of no exception.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

"And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also"

coffee spew - was reading fast again and saw:

"And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy cat, let him have thy cloak also" ...meow?

I found the whole episode kind of funny because such displays are a form of idolatry and fetishism anyway. I'd rather see a plaque saying "Mind your manners, tell the truth and behave like your mamma told you, 'cause the law smacks much harder than she could." Remember that the Oklahoma territories was where the Christian transplants sent all the rounded up natives who had their own faiths and histories. A plaque like that would be more in keeping with the theme of enforced suppression.

I found the excuse of the vandal especially funny: "Satan" told him to do it. If he _is_ a Satanist, and he believes that, that is an expression of his religion on public grounds and he could argue that it comes under protected free speech.

I wonder if Moses should have been arrested for breaking the originals... (or did you forget?)


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## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

So funny. Twisted knickers again.


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## nosedirt (Sep 24, 2014)

HD Rider, I agree and we are headed there fast. As for those who wish to mock God, I think He will have the last laugh at judgment.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I'm confused. Over on another thread, Christians have been telling me that they no longer following the Old Testament, thus I don't have to worry about them killing me (as mandated in the Bible) for being LGBT. 

But aren't the 10 Commandments from the OT? So wouldn't that make them obsolete? Or ...what?


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## nosedirt (Sep 24, 2014)

Willow, the Old Testament was fulfilled at the death of Christ and is no longer in effect. The New law or testament is now in effect. The new law is different but many of the principles remain. The Old Law says "Do not commit adultery."(One of the Ten Commandments) but under the New Law Jesus says "Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Matthew 5:27-28).
The Old law says "Do not Kill." The New law says hating our brother is as bad as killing him. 

The Old law was more of a physical law where the New law is more about what is in our hearts.

So, even though the Old Law has been fulfilled, many Christians hold to the "principles" that they represent.

Does that help?


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## hawgsquatch (May 11, 2014)

I think the commandments are a good idea as all of our current law evolved from them starting with the Roman statutes, down through English common law, to the system we have now.

I personally interpret the constitution as being in favor or freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion. 

Somewhere people on both sides decided the constitution protected them from being offended. That is simply not the case.


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## nosedirt (Sep 24, 2014)

Amen Hawgs. The left doesn't care if a Christian is offended. They rather enjoy it. But they sure get in a dither if they feel offended by the presence of God Almighty. You hit the proverbial nail on the head with your entire statement and especially, ...well all of it was good. Thank you!


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

nosedirt said:


> Amen Hawgs. The left doesn't care if a Christian is offended. They rather enjoy it. But they sure get in a dither if they feel offended by the presence of God Almighty. You hit the proverbial nail on the head with your entire statement and especially, ...well all of it was good. Thank you!


Did those Christians think - for one second, that putting up the 10 Commandments on public property, was _not_ going to offend others?

Sure they knew it would, but they wanted to do it anyway.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

nosedirt said:


> Willow, the Old Testament was fulfilled at the death of Christ and is no longer in effect. The New law or testament is now in effect. The new law is different but many of the principles remain. The Old Law says "Do not commit adultery."(One of the Ten Commandments) but under the New Law Jesus says "Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Matthew 5:27-28).
> The Old law says "Do not Kill." The New law says hating our brother is as bad as killing him.
> 
> The Old law was more of a physical law where the New law is more about what is in our hearts.
> ...


Very nice of you to provide this. However, you'll find that WG-even tho I loooove her dearly-only uses OT when she wants to put down Christains. When given other verses to counter her bashings, she exclaims that she doesn't believe in that 'mysticism'.
But carry on. She's a great person so maybe one day...


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> Did those Christians think - for one second, that putting up the 10 Commandments on public property, was _not_ going to offend others?
> 
> Sure they knew it would, but they wanted to do it anyway.


Do you know how many verses of the bible, how many times the comandments & other such 'musings' are on most structures in D.C.? On our money? On nearly everything the founding fathers touched? Ya know, the ones who wrote the U.S. Constitution? Didja know the 1st congress set up a 'church' ON the premesis so congrescritters could go pray whereever?
Gee, did THEY not KNOW there's a "separation of church & state"?!?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

willow_girl said:


> I'm confused. Over on another thread, Christians have been telling me that they no longer following the Old Testament, thus I don't have to worry about them killing me (as mandated in the Bible) for being LGBT.
> 
> But aren't the 10 Commandments from the OT? So wouldn't that make them obsolete? Or ...what?


Of them, which worries you the most...


You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

plowjockey said:


> Did those Christians think - for one second, that putting up the 10 Commandments on public property, was _not_ going to offend others?
> 
> Sure they knew it would, but they wanted to do it anyway.


And I ask you, which do you find most offensive?


You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> Very nice of you to provide this. However, you'll find that WG-even tho I loooove her dearly-only uses OT when she wants to put down Christains. When given other verses to counter her bashings, she exclaims that she doesn't believe in that 'mysticism'.
> But carry on. She's a great person so maybe one day...


Hmmm

Christians are steadfastly against gays - often hatefully, but WG questioning their reason for doing so, is "bashing" Christians?



> She's a great person so maybe one day...


This is nice to hear, that indeed, there is at least one, maybe even of many, who do not "walk with the Lord", but who are good people and good citizens, none the less.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

I do understand how some here might prefer:

The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth

by Anton Szandor LaVey
Â© 1967


Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
When in anotherâs lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
Do not harm little children.
Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

The new national pastime seems to be finding something, anything to be offended about. Maybe if these folks put a little more time in striving to live a better life they would find some relevance.


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## Riverdale (Jan 20, 2008)

edcopp said:


> In my count, Vinton County, Ohio, I can not enter the "Public" court house unless I consent to an electronic search.
> 
> The Constitution of the United Stated of America indicates that I have a God Given right to freedom from an illegal search. A legal search would require a warrant. To get a warrant someone would have to swear under an oath that they have evidence that I had commited a crime. Probable cause, it is called. The crime would need to be identified and stated, and what was being searched for would need to be stated in the warrant; then the judge issuing the warrant would need to sign it.
> 
> ...


To go and pay my property taxes in Gratiot County, Michigan, I too, must resort to having one of my Constitutional Rights being abused. Or to the Extension office.

And some wonder why people are upset with the goobermint.......


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Or maybe you prefer;

The Twenty One Principles of Hedonism 
1. Know Who You Really Are.
2. Know What You Like.
3. Play.
4. Relax.
5. Be Nice.
6. Live Creatively.
7. Love Fearlessly.
8. Consume Comfort.
9. Protect Yourself.
10. Listen to Your Music.
11. Appreciate What You Have.
12. Adore the Women that Delight You.
13. Surround Yourself With Friends.
14. Know What You Can and Canât Handle.
15. Work to Live. Donât Live to Work.
16. Pursue the Good Things in Your Life .
17. Prepare for the Bad Things in Your Life. 
18. Donât Push Hedonism on Others.
19.Try Not to Hurt Others Getting What You Want.
20. Learn as if Youâll Live Forever, Live as if Youâll Die Tomorrow. 
21. Have fun.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

HDRider said:


> Or maybe you prefer;
> 
> The Twenty One Principles of Hedonism
> 1. Know Who You Really Are.
> ...


With the exception of 18,20 and _maybe_ 12 , don't Christians follow the rest, at least to some extent?


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Willow, the Old Testament was fulfilled at the death of Christ and is no longer in effect. The New law or testament is now in effect. The new law is different but many of the principles remain. The Old Law says "Do not commit adultery."(One of the Ten Commandments) but under the New Law Jesus says "Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Matthew 5:27-28).
> The Old law says "Do not Kill." The New law says hating our brother is as bad as killing him.
> 
> *The Old law was more of a physical law where the New law is more about what is in our hearts.*
> ...


(Emphasis mine.) I've heard this explanation before and actually it makes a lot of sense. I tend to suspect that humans make rules, not so they know what to avoid, but to define precisely how much they can get away with before running afoul of God or the authorities.

Jesus definitely threw a monkey wrench into _that _plan! :hysterical:

But it makes me sad that - OT or NT -- LGBT folks still are inevitably lumped in with the liars and cheaters, etc. (Do you see how insulting that is?) Our default setting apparently is "evil," although some versions of Christianity grant us a little grace if we pledge to be scrupulously celibate. It seems the Catholic Church is softening its stance a bit in that regard -- I hear we're no longer "intrinsically disordered"! I suppose that's progress. :hrm:


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

plowjockey said:


> With the exception of 18,20 and _maybe_ 12 , don't Christians follow the rest, at least to some extent?


Enticing isn't it?


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

It sounds as though this guy has more than a few screws lose.



> A man told authorities he smashed his car into a Ten Commandments monument at the state Capitol, breaking it to pieces, because Satan told him to do it.
> 
> Michael Tate Reed Jr., 29, was interviewed Friday by the U.S. Secret Service and taken into custody by the Oklahoma Highway Patrol on Friday after he made threatening statements at the Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City, Secret Service Special Agent David Allison said.
> 
> ...


http://newsok.com/man-accused-of-sm...dments-monument-is-identified/article/5359778

A creative defense attorney might use the Moses defense: that the guy smashed the Ten Commandments tablet because the politicians of Oklahoma had erected and were worshiping an idol, but chances are, they'll just go with an insanity defense.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> But it makes me sad that - OT or NT -- LGBT folks still are inevitably lumped in with the liars and cheaters, etc. (Do you see how insulting that is?) Our default setting apparently is "evil," although some versions of Christianity grant us a little grace if we pledge to be scrupulously celibate. It seems the Catholic Church is softening its stance a bit in that regard -- I hear we're no longer "intrinsically disordered"! I suppose that's progress. :hrm:


Unless I'm not understanding, I'm surprised to see this coming from you, if you are referring to Priests.

Pedophilia has nothing to do with homosexuality. It is a mental disorder and although the acts are sexual, they are a lot like rape, more about power, revenge and control, than simply sexual gratification.

Plenty of little girls were molested too, just not in the same numbers, because they did not have the unsupervised access to the priests, like the "alter boys" did.

"celibate" priests had affairs with married and single church women, too.

The Priests were protected, well - because they were Priests, plus, back in those days, mostly ANY sexual abuse, by nearly ANYONE, was merely swept under the rug. Ther was minimal legal recourse, plus people did not want to the person, to rat out a religious deity or family member.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

HDRider said:


> Enticing isn't it?


Yah, pretty much it is, by their very definition. 



> Ethical hedonism is the idea that all people have the right to do everything in their power to achieve the greatest amount of pleasure possible to them, assuming that their actions do not infringe on the equal rights of others. It is also the idea that every person's pleasure should far surpass their amount of pain. Ethical hedonism is said to have been started by Aristippus of Cyrene, a student of Socrates. He held the idea that pleasure is the highest good.[2]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonism

but in reality "desire" and "pleasure", could be easily substituted with "ambition" and happiness", that could apply to many.

Christians work to buy things to enjoy, could be a pot of flowers, or a new large boat. They hopefully enjoy sex on various levels, some levels maybe extreme, which is their business. I would think, they certainly want the good things in life, to outweigh the bad.


On the flip side, certainly there are many hedonists, who work hard, pay taxes, serve their country, work school fundraisers, vote, love and nurture their children, care for their aging parents and be friends to many, who are not even like them.

Contrary to popular belief, Christians do not have a monopoly on being good people.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Unless I'm not understanding, I'm surprised to see this coming from you, if you are referring to Priests.
> 
> Pedophilia has nothing to do with homosexuality. It is a mental disorder and although the acts are sexual, they are a lot like rape, more about power, revenge and control, than simply sexual gratification.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure where you're coming from here. I did not have pedophilia in mind in my earlier post. I was referencing the fact that new Pope seems to have softened his stance toward gays, compared to Benedict, who labeled us "intrinsically disordered." That is, no matter how we choose to lead our lives, or what good people we might be, we are indelibly flawed. Actually, this is consistent with the Bible, which says we are not to inherit the kingdom of God. So be it, I guess! :shrug:


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

willow_girl said:


> I'm not sure where you're coming from here. I did not have pedophilia in mind in my earlier post. I was referencing the fact that new Pope seems to have softened his stance toward gays, compared to Benedict, who labeled us "intrinsically disordered." That is, no matter how we choose to lead our lives, or what good people we might be, we are indelibly flawed. Actually, this is consistent with the Bible, which says we are not to inherit the kingdom of God. So be it, I guess! :shrug:


Guess it was the word "celibate", usually referring to Priests.

I thought if the Pope wanted gay parishoners to be celibate, it would not really be much of a welcoming.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

plowjockey said:


> Yah, pretty much it is, by their very definition.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The monopoly held by Christians lies elsewhere. The real beauty of that monopoly is that it is available to all that ask for it.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> Hmmm
> 
> Christians are steadfastly against gays - often hatefully, but WG questioning their reason for doing so, is "bashing" Christians?
> 
> ...


Where did you get that idea?
B/c if some things are considered a sin does not mean a group is hated. Abortin is hated not someone who's had one.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

HD, I think you are taking it too hard. Some whack job knocking down a monument that was just erected in 2012 for political brownie points, does not signal the downfall of our entire civilization. Take a deep breath. 

According to Wikipedia, the Ok. capitol building has been there since 1919. If the 10 commandments monument had been there since day one, a historic piece, then I could understand the despair a little more. But they were a recent addition, basically a symbol of a political spitting match. "There, I won." How much true reverence for God did that show in the first place?


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> Where did you get that idea?
> B/c if some things are considered a sin does not mean a group is hated. Abortin is hated not someone who's had one.


I got it from the real world, where....

The rallying cry is "marriage is between a man and a woman", not because Gay Marriage is a sin.

They are not fighting to ban the 'sin" of homosexuality (although they would like to), just like they don't fight the sin of adultery, sodomy, etc. prevelant in the Christian heterosexual world.

*Denying some Americans equal rights, because of religion.*

If that's not hatred, I don't know what is.


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## nosedirt (Sep 24, 2014)

Where is your evidence that it is prevalent in the "Christian heterosexual world?" People like to confuse the issue. I know of no Christian that thinks adultery is okay. Why should sexual deviants have the same "rights" as others. If two homosexuals want to live that sinful lifestyle, I can't stop that. God will deal with them at the Judgement. Since the beginning of time and in almost any other country on earth today, marriage is understood to be between one woman and one man. How is that so hard to understand. Some activist judge saying otherwise does not make it true. 

You only call it hatred because that is the battle cry that the homosexual crowd has tried to convince people of. Not true. God says homosexuality is wrong. Do you disagree with God? Jesus explained that he didn't point out sin due to hatred, but actually out of love. No different than a parent that tells a child something is wrong to do. Not because they hate them, but because they love them enough to tell them the truth.

It would be easy for me to ignore the sin of homosexuality, but God expects me to stand for truth and right. Homosexuality IS sin, regardless of my opinion or yours. I choose not to argue with God.


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## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

God says that thou shalt not kill, too. Yet we support soldiers. Just saying....let god be the judge.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> It would be easy for me to ignore the sin of homosexuality, but God expects me to stand for truth and right. Homosexuality IS sin, regardless of my opinion or yours. I choose not to argue with God.


It's a free country and you're entitled to your belief. If you think homosexuality is sinful, I strongly recommend that you refrain from having gay sex or marrying a same-sex partner. 

However, I'd appreciate it if you'd extend the same consideration to me, and allow me to follow the dictates of MY conscience, and to perhaps marry a same-sex partner if I choose. (How does that harm you? Why is it any skin off your nose? Why is it any of your business?)


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

MO_cows said:


> HD, I think you are taking it too hard. Some whack job knocking down a monument that was just erected in 2012 for political brownie points, does not signal the downfall of our entire civilization. Take a deep breath.
> 
> According to Wikipedia, the Ok. capitol building has been there since 1919. If the 10 commandments monument had been there since day one, a historic piece, then I could understand the despair a little more. But they were a recent addition, basically a symbol of a political spitting match. "There, I won." How much true reverence for God did that show in the first place?


It isn't about a monument. 

I am simply saying America is less influenced by Christian beliefs as a people and as a nation. I grieve for that while some celebrate it. It will be our undoing. 

That's all. No biggie.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

HDRider said:


> It isn't about a monument.
> 
> I am simply saying America is less influenced by Christian beliefs as a people and as a nation. I grieve for that while some celebrate it. It will be our undoing.
> 
> That's all. No biggie.


I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't think it's anything to be grieved or celebrated either one. Just the way things are. Times change. And I disagree it will be our "undoing". People hit a certain age, see enough change in their lifetime, they think "what's this world coming to?" It happens to every generation. 

And, what brand of "Christian beliefs" did you have in mind? The teetotaler Baptists who bring us "dry" counties and Sunday "blue laws", or the Catholics who drink wine right in their services, and hold mass every day of the week? There is about as much difference between different branches of the Christian faith, as between other religions.

So, again, one nut job knocking down a monument to the 10 commandments, which was placed there for political purposes in the first place......well I prefer to think God is above all that!


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

I'm sorry that the other kid behaved badly and that the politicians' toy was broken.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MO_cows said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't think it's anything to be grieved or celebrated either one. Just the way things are. Times change. And I disagree it will be our "undoing". People hit a certain age, see enough change in their lifetime, they think "what's this world coming to?" It happens to every generation.
> 
> And, what brand of "Christian beliefs" did you have in mind? The teetotaler Baptists who bring us "dry" counties and Sunday "blue laws", or the Catholics who drink wine right in their services, and hold mass every day of the week? There is about as much difference between different branches of the Christian faith, as between other religions.
> 
> So, again, one nut job knocking down a monument to the 10 commandments, which was placed there for political purposes in the first place......well I prefer to think God is above all that!


Or maybe she's just showing us that monuments to beliefs aren't that important to her.


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## nosedirt (Sep 24, 2014)

HDRider,
I understand what you are trying to say and I agree with you.

And to reply to others, yes that is my belief and I am entitled to it. I served this country faithfully and gave parts of me that I can't get back so that both you and I could be entitled to our own beliefs.

But just because you have a belief, doesn't make said belief correct. This country made it for two hundred years and didn't need to open marriage to homosexuals. If two homosexuals want to live together and make commitment to each other, fine, let them do that. But don't demean me and other Christians for not wanting your sexual immorality being pushed in our faces. I like Dr. Pepper. I like to drink Dr. Pepper. I have the right to drink Dr. Pepper. But I don't have the right to change the definition of a beverage just because I think people have to accept what I do. Not to mention, drinking Dr. Pepper is not a sin, I just happen to drink a sinful amount of it. LOL


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> People don't like it and Christians are the misunderstood victims.



What is that supposed to mean? People... Christians are people too, and so far they have been the majority. Most of those ten commandment plaques, steles, etc.. have been there for ever and a day. It is new non christians throwing their weight around. What is wrong with the ten commandments? Nothing. You just want to belly ache. You are condoning lying, stealing, murdering, etc? 
Adultery is the one they balk at. And the one on God and taking God's name in vain. The height of disrespect actually.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Tabitha said:


> What is that supposed to mean? People... Christians are people too, and so far they have been the majority. Most of those ten commandment plaques, steles, etc.. have been there for ever and a day. It is new non christians throwing their weight around. What is wrong with the ten commandments? Nothing. You just want to belly ache. You are condoning lying, stealing, murdering, etc?
> Adultery is the one they balk at. And the one on God and taking God's name in vain. The height of disrespect actually.


It means that, IMO, they put it there, only to teach everyone else a "lesson", knowing full, well, it would eventually cause problems.

Sure enough it did. 



> You just want to belly ache.


We all know full well, the issue is NOT the 10 commandments. The issue is erecting a religious symbol on *public property*. If it has been erected 50 years ago (or 150), it would be a different story. It was two years ago.

But go ahead and pretend.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MO_cows said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't think it's anything to be grieved or celebrated either one. Just the way things are. Times change. And I disagree it will be our "undoing". People hit a certain age, see enough change in their lifetime, they think "what's this world coming to?" It happens to every generation.
> 
> And, what brand of "Christian beliefs" did you have in mind? The teetotaler Baptists who bring us "dry" counties and Sunday "blue laws", or the Catholics who drink wine right in their services, and hold mass every day of the week? There is about as much difference between different branches of the Christian faith, as between other religions.
> 
> So, again, one nut job knocking down a monument to the 10 commandments, which was placed there for political purposes in the first place......well I prefer to think God is above all that!


I remember a time when Elvis and other forms of the devil's music were signs of the coming apocalypse. Now those who enjoyed that music see their own signs.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> It means that, IMO, they put it there, only to teach everyone else a "lesson", knowing full, well, it would eventually cause problems.
> 
> Sure enough it did.
> 
> ...


Why is it not ok? Like we said b/4, those 10 have been in the Supreme COurt building since the beginning. Why is it suddenly not ok?


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> I remember a time when Elvis and other forms of the devil's music were signs of the coming apocalypse. Now those who enjoyed that music see their own signs.


What? I remember when Elvis became popular & NEVER heard this! Wow.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Pretty sure Moses threw the original 10 Commandments on the ground......smashing them?
And uh, they still stand today?
So, just because someone mows down a monument with their car, for whatever reason, does not make the 10 Commandments 'go away'......

BIG DEEP SIGH.......
1 Thess:4:11-12
11 and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life: *You should mind your own business and work with your hands, *just as we told you, 
12 so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

A very literal group.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Tricky Grama said:


> What? I remember when Elvis became popular & NEVER heard this! Wow.


You likely had the volume turned too high to hear your elders.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> You likely had the volume turned too high to hear your elders.


Maybe the middle of KS is not as 'witch-hunting' as other spots in the country.
We were cautioned about Elvis being a little to "sexual'. 

But I went to a parochial school & not one word was mentioned. In fact, we had a 'record player' and set it up during lunch hr & danced in the hall. Yup. Parochial school. Played lots of Elvis.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Tricky Grama said:


> Maybe the middle of KS is not as 'witch-hunting' as other spots in the country.
> We were cautioned about Elvis being a little to "sexual'.
> 
> But I went to a parochial school & not one word was mentioned. In fact, we had a 'record player' and set it up during lunch hr & danced in the hall. Yup. Parochial school. Played lots of Elvis.


Apparently your nuns didn't get the memo. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/music/elvis.html


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## michael ark (Dec 11, 2013)

I was taught you hate the sin not the sinner.How can you hate your family and friends . Church is for sinners not saints. :flame::flame::flame::flame:


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> Apparently your nuns didn't get the memo. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/music/elvis.html


Aparently not. Things are not the same all over the world. Just so ya know. Plus, never heard of that publication-'Organ'. Would be nice if that article had given us the area it covered, or its outreach. Certainly was not the "Dogma" of the church...prolly a small N.E. publication. Much more strickt in the n.e.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Tricky Grama said:


> Aparently not. Things are not the same all over the world. Just so ya know. Plus, never heard of that publication-'Organ'. Would be nice if that article had given us the area it covered, or its outreach. Certainly was not the "Dogma" of the church...prolly a small N.E. publication. Much more strickt in the n.e.


I wasn't trying to make this about Elvis but here's some more info. http://elvispresleybiography.blogspot.com/2007/03/elvis-presley-danger-to-american.html?m=1

The broader point is that every generation has worried about the downfall of moral values and their affect on the country, yet we're still here.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mmoetc said:


> I wasn't trying to make this about Elvis but here's some more info. http://elvispresleybiography.blogspot.com/2007/03/elvis-presley-danger-to-american.html?m=1
> 
> The broader point is that every generation has worried about the downfall of moral values and their affect on the country, yet we're still here.


I am sure we are concerned over nothing. It will all work itself out..


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

HDRider said:


> I am sure we are concerned over nothing. It will all work itself out..


Not quite. We'll work it out together as we have in the past.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> Why is it not ok? Like we said b/4, those 10 have been in the Supreme COurt building since the beginning. Why is it suddenly not ok?


When America was founded, it was a Christian country based solely on Christian beliefs.

No problem for anyone.

That is not the case any more and there is now a _huge_ divide, on the representation of _any_ religion, concerning government functions. _Separation of church and state _I believe it is called.

That said, is Christianity still a more important religion, than any of the others, so they should garner special treatment, concerning Government functions? Obviously, the answer will depend on who you ask.

These folks knew erecting that 10C monument would cause anger amongst others, who frankly, have a right as tax paying Americans, to be angry. It's their property too, even if they are not Christian. I do not agree that ripping it down was just.

For those that demand that the 10C be torn out of buildings where they *have been for 200 years*, i agree would be quite lame, petty and uncalled for.

However, IMO, one erected *2 years ago.* seemingly for spite, is another story.

If the Satanists, conned a Democrat pol into erecting a statue of Lucifer, on Govt grounds, Christians would not be Ok with it!


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> I got it from the real world, where....
> 
> The rallying cry is "marriage is between a man and a woman", not because Gay Marriage is a sin.
> 
> ...


Most just want the gay marriage to be called anything but marriage. B/c they believe in the definition.
Most really do not care what benefits gays have.
Most realize its what gays COULD do that is hated, not gay people.
But continue w/your rant all the while losing more cred that you didn't really have.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Here's a story about the man who broke the monument.

His family says that what he did wasn't political.

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-man-accu...struggles-with-mental-illness/article/5362701


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

Tricky Grama said:


> Most just want the gay marriage to be called anything but marriage. B/c they believe in the definition.
> Most really do not care what benefits gays have.
> *Most realize its what gays COULD do that is hated, not gay people.*
> But continue w/your rant all the while losing more cred that you didn't really have.


What exactly is it that gays COULD do that is so hated? If a gay person did something that causes hate in someone it's because they are a jerk or a criminal, not because they are gay.


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

joseph97297 said:


> I've never understood why Christians would want the 10 commandments to be posted anyway and yet don't fight to have the words of Jesus posted. After all, if you are going to try and follow the 10, then shouldn't you follow the other 600 plus? Oh, wait, the old "Those laws don't apply anymore' will get trotted out. Well, if some of the laws don't apply, then why all the hoopla over the 10 commandments from the same book?
> 
> Really, I could understand if people were fighting to have Jesus quotes put up, like over the courthouse you could have this one:
> 
> ...


 Yes Jesus covered all 10 Commandments 

Jesus was asked: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments. Matt 22:36-40 (Amp) 

big rockpile


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

plowjockey said:


> When America was founded, it was a Christian country based solely on Christian beliefs.
> 
> No problem for anyone.
> 
> ...


 I'll just be glad when it is deemed this is a Christian Country, no more no less.

But the Israelites went through this and the Lord turned His back on them :Bawling:

big rockpile


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> It's a free country and you're entitled to your belief. If you think homosexuality is sinful, I strongly recommend that you refrain from having gay sex or marrying a same-sex partner.
> 
> However, I'd appreciate it if you'd extend the same consideration to me, and allow me to follow the dictates of MY conscience, and to perhaps marry a same-sex partner if I choose. (How does that harm you? Why is it any skin off your nose? Why is it any of your business?)


 Because we care for you we would like for you to repent of your sin and turn from it. If you don't then we can't say we didn't ask have a nice trip.

big rockpile


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## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

big rockpile said:


> I'll just be glad when it is deemed this is a Christian Country, no more no less.


As much as many Christians would like to believe this is a Christian country It has never been a Christian country and can not become one without amending the Constitution.
God, Christ, Christian, Jesus, None of these words appear in the U S Constitution. 

It is a country that allows the practice of all religions or no religion. The religion practiced by the majority is Christianity. 

Jim


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## Guest123 (Oct 10, 2006)

big rockpile said:


> Because we care for you we would like for you to repent of your sin and turn from it. If you don't then we can't say we didn't ask have a nice trip.
> 
> big rockpile


This is exactly what I hate about organized religion! A person that has led a very unchristian like life doing illegal, immoral, and unethical things and bragging about them on this very forum, believes they can suddenly be in good standing in Gods eyes because he repented late in life. And on the other hand, people that are doing great things for others, leading definately a more "christian like" existence, would be not accepted by God just because the are in a same sex relationship.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

treasureacres said:


> This is exactly what I hate about organized religion! A person that has led a very unchristian like life doing illegal, immoral, and unethical things and bragging about them on this very forum, believes they can suddenly be in good standing in Gods eyes because he repented late in life. And on the other hand, people that are doing great things for others, leading definately a more "christian like" existence, would be not accepted by God just because the are in a same sex relationship.


I am not sure the Bible says homosexuals will go to hell.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

HDRider said:


> I am not sure the Bible says homosexuals will go to hell.


Can you show me where it says they an't :sing: I can show you where it says they are :bdh::bdh:


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Can you show me where it says they an't :sing: I can show you where it says they are :bdh::bdh:


Please do show me. I simply don't know. 

Thanks


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

HDRider said:


> Please do show me. I simply don't know.
> 
> Thanks


Sorry if I sounded snarky :bow: I didn't remember if you were in on these discussions or not :sing:

Here is one place this was discussed not long ago :thumb:
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sp...1-wyoming-same-sex-marriages-legal-today.html


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Sorry if I sounded snarky :bow: I didn't remember if you were in on these discussions or not :sing:
> 
> Here is one place this was discussed not long ago :thumb:
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sp...1-wyoming-same-sex-marriages-legal-today.html


You're fine. Could you save me some trouble and point out a couple of Bible verses, preferably NT?

Thanks


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

HDRider said:


> You're fine. Could you save me some trouble and point out a couple of Bible verses, preferably NT?
> 
> Thanks


Sure :thumb:
Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: (26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Or do you not know that evil men do not inherit The Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; no fornicators, neither worshipers of idols, neither adulterers, neither sexual molesters, neither males lying down with males, 10Neither frauds, nor thieves, neither drunkards, nor the insolent, neither extortioners; these do not inherit The Kingdom of God. 11And these things had been in each one of you but you are washed, you are sanctified and you are made righteous in the name of Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah and by The Spirit of our God.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

1 Corinthians 6:9 seems most clear. 

Thank you.


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## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Sure :thumb:
> Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: (26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 6:9 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
> Or do you not know that evil men do not inherit The Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; no fornicators, neither worshipers of idols, neither adulterers, neither sexual molesters, neither males lying down with males, 10Neither frauds, nor thieves, neither drunkards, nor the insolent, neither extortioners; these do not inherit The Kingdom of God. 11And these things had been in each one of you but you are washed, you are sanctified and you are made righteous in the name of Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah and by The Spirit of our God.


Do you think those that marry in church, get a divorce from the state, and the remarry are adulterers? If so are they all going to hell? That would be part of this same Bible passage. Are you opposed to the right to remarry for those that have divorced?

Jim


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Jim Bunton said:


> Do you think those that marry in church, get a divorce from the state, and the remarry are adulterers? If so are they all going to hell? That would be part of this same Bible passage. Are you opposed to the right to remarry for those that have divorced?
> 
> Jim


Great question :thumb: Also way to complex for a short answer and deserves a better explanation than I am capable of giving in the space allotted .

Have tried to stay away from turning this thread so far off course :facepalm:

What I think about those things in your question don't amount to a hill of beans and could lead someone astray . One should study the Bible in earnest then follow it's direction . 

What I do know is ONCE one comes to the knowledge they have committed an error they should repent (ask for forgiveness and quit doing that thing )
I fight many things daily there are times I know the right thing to do and do the apposite ,so I need repentance daily as Paul said he did too 

Remember it is a war we fight every day . Ephesians 6:12 
King James Bible
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Because we care for you we would like for you to repent of your sin and turn from it. If you don't then we can't say we didn't ask have a nice trip.


I would say, "Thank you for your concern, and you have a nice trip, too," if only you (generic "you") were willing to leave it at that. But you're not, are you? You Christians won't rest until you can make the secular law reflect your religious beliefs. Why? 

Preventing me from marrying a same-sex partner isn't going to save my soul. It's not going to make me "repent of my sin and turn from it." It will only serve to make me dislike your religion even more than I already do! So why fight for these laws? What's your end game, other than the desire to be a control freak or a bully?


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Great question :thumb: Also way to complex for a short answer and deserves a better explanation than I am capable of giving in the space allotted .
> 
> Have tried to stay away from turning this thread so far off course :facepalm:
> 
> ...


Hmmm

So, it's righteous to do things we know are wrong in "gods eyes", over and over again, as long as we ask for his forgiveness?

That said, if the gays professed to have "sinned', give a little repent and then they'd be good to go.

Problem solved.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

plowjockey said:


> Hmmm
> 
> So, it's righteous to do things we know are wrong in "gods eyes", over and over again, as long as we ask for his forgiveness?
> 
> ...


I think so, and only you and God know if you are truly repentant.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

plowjockey said:


> Hmmm
> 
> So, it's righteous to do things we know are wrong in "gods eyes", over and over again, as long as we ask for his forgiveness?
> 
> ...


I know I missed a lot of classes at school but one day in third grade they explained the definition of repentance .

http://www.gotquestions.org/repentance.html

Your second sentence depends entirely on repentance ,then they or anyone for any reason is good to go :thumb:

There are cases where God and all the people know if a person has repented or not . Say I told you I repented of being a drunk but every time you see me I have a jug and am falling down drunk .Repentance is an auction not just words . 

If anyone is in a true search of knowledge of the Bible I don't mind sharing my limited amount :bow: But I fear some just want to replay being the serpent in the garden :thumb:


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