# Did it happen?



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

I asked a very simple question of another member. It was not a personal question. It was well within the rules of this board. It was germaine to the discussion at hand. The question, asked multiple times in an effort to obtain an answer, has been deleted by WR.

Therefore, let me ask the board at large, as some may have differing views as to whether the historical event happened or not...

Did the Holocaust happen?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

It wasn't little green creatures that jumped out of UFO's that built gas chambers and ovens and used them to kill and dispose of the remains of millions of people.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

There are large segments of the population who do not think it happened or have never heard it happened.

According to this article, half of the world's population does not know or is not aware the Holocaust happened:

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at...ary-number-of-people-say-no-or-not-even-aware


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Yes; I read of it at the time, saw the pictures. Anyone who lived thru WWII has to know about it. 

Anyone with a lick of sense and who can read or use a computer can find the pictures, the many reports, the statements of survivors, the stories of GI's who liberated some of those death camps.

Only an idiot or someone with an agenda to push would deny the holocaust.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Yes, it happened. My Mother and her family lived thru it. Freed from a camp when Gramdma offered a guard a Icon in gold "turned his head" as they escaped.Mom was 10 when they made it to the US thru Germany, came on a freighter thru Ellis Island.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

That question rates right up there with "is there a North Pole?" I've never seen it, but I am pretty sure it's there.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

It happened
I knew an old couple that went through it, had numbers tattooed on their arms.
I don't know what facility they were kept at, but I think they were both Polish. 
The Jew haters will deny it happened, muslims teach their children it didn't happen, and some Americans pretend it didn't happen.
I don't know if the schools even teach it any more.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

It takes a special kind of person to deny it, but then, we've got some special people here.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

7thswan said:


> Yes, it happened. My Mother and her family lived thru it. Freed from a camp when Gramdma offered a guard a Icon in gold "turned his head" as they escaped.Mom was 10 when they made it to the US thru Germany, came on a freighter thru Ellis Island.


OMG 7th, bless your family!
I've met a couple survivors, now dead. They certainly have a different perspective on "life".


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

...............The Islamists deny it ever happened , so they have dedicated themselves to completing the task the Nazi's left unfinished ! Their plan will probably take somewhat longer since they want to destroy the Americanus Infidelius while simultaneously wiping the Jews off the map . 
...............They are making the same mistake the Japs made by bombing Pearl Harbor , i.e..........the more driveby executions that occur in this country , the more the resolve within the general population to remove the Islamists from their middle eastern homelands . Our Navy is already fully engaged , it is only a matter of time before our ground forces are ordered to take up the fight as well ! NO ONE wants to send US troops back to Iraq or Syria , but it is inevitable that a point of critical mass will be reached because we , as free citizens will not coexist with a daily routine of bombings and murders like they have in Iraq . It won't happen with Obama , but if a Republican is elected a line in the sand will be drawn . , fordy


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## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

Yes, it happened. The fact that one must even ask the question shows just how low some have sunk in denial.


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## WildernesFamily (Mar 11, 2006)

It most definitely happened, but I personally know someone who believes it didn't happen, and is just a conspiracy theory. :shrug: Mind boggling.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

The left does not what to belive it did happen because they don't want to acknowlage that their ideology ends badly. Big goverment usally attracts sickos to be in control. Histroy.....


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

7thswan said:


> The left does not what to belive it did happen because they don't want to acknowlage that their ideology ends badly. Big goverment usally attracts sickos to be in control. Histroy.....


That is completely...COMPLETELY off base. For one thing, I can't think of a single liberal on this earth who doesn't believe that the holocaust happened, not even one isolated individual. Shouldn't be too surprising considering how many Jewish Americans are liberal.... I don't know what you people are doing right now, but it kind of looks like you took a nose dive down the rabbit hole. 

For another thing, the Nazi Party was only the "socialist worker's party" in name. Their actual policies and propaganda were fascist, meaning it was nothing more than brain washed, dumbed down, Koolaid drinking *flag waving hyper nationalism* controlled by a totalitarian regime. Corporations were handed political power over labor within the party, it was elitism at it's finest, and the crowds roared. Everything was controlled by the elite. Labor had no say. Scandinavians are more socialist today than Germany ever has been, and to my knowledge no one is currently suffering through a "final solution." They're quite happy, actually. What you apparently don't know about socialism could be covered in nothing less of a thousand page book, so I'll just stop here.


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## Shine (Feb 19, 2011)

I'm leaving this one open until God gives me the answer. His punishments have often been severe to the utmost as the Jewish people turned their back on Him all throughout the Old Testament with many resulting punishments. To summarize the New Testament, God used the Judaic Jews to kill His Son to bring in the New Covenant that now includes Gentile and Jew. This, from what I understand about the "Promised People" - in God's eyes, we are now all Jews.

I do not know anyone who was in the camps, I have never been there and I know very few Jews but here is where I stand:

My knowledge of the incident(s) is very vague, only what you read, so I do not feel competent in answering.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

I thought those people were not from America....we have schools right.

There's a difference between civics class and history, social studies, current events.

Now, with common core..vs home schoolers.. digital books vs physical books.

Yes, it that event took place back in history and last night jolly.
People are just about there too to be able that stand up and believe ....in large numbers that 



Only blacks were oppressed...that might be a reason to devalue these history book of hate ...ask a the bible...

Mind training. Remove the older folks ...( social security...guns...grandparents can't move it... we control of get on the list ...send the to holocaust acres to spent the rest of his days.

And no one will bat an eye.

Yea, I went out there on a tangent.... but the education system and social values is far different.

Do we bat an eye when we first her that a child protection service takes a child
Or do we say a pray .....good government ..with out questioning yourself... if you knew them... what really did they do.... do the charges make sense?

Fyi.... Irish were slaves.... the civil war was about economics ...Lincoln did not care about slavery as an issue...


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

wiscto said:


> That is completely...COMPLETELY off base. For one thing, I can't think of a single liberal on this earth who doesn't believe that the holocaust happened, not even one isolated individual. Shouldn't be too surprising considering how many Jewish Americans are liberal.... I don't know what you people are doing right now, but it kind of looks like you took a nose dive down the rabbit hole.
> 
> For another thing, the Nazi Party was only the "socialist worker's party" in name. Their actual policies and propaganda were fascist, meaning it was nothing more than brain washed, dumbed down, Koolaid drinking *flag waving hyper nationalism* controlled by a totalitarian regime. Corporations were handed political power over labor within the party, it was elitism at it's finest, and the crowds roared. Everything was controlled by the elite. Labor had no say. Scandinavians are more socialist today than Germany ever has been, and to my knowledge no one is currently suffering through a "final solution." They're quite happy, actually. What you apparently don't know about socialism could be covered in nothing less of a thousand page book, so I'll just stop here.


So what? call it what you want, give it another name, it's the same-big goverment control. Many Countrys are on the same ladder just diffrent rungs on the way to the bottom.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

wiscto said:


> That is completely...COMPLETELY off base. For one thing, I can't think of a single liberal on this earth who doesn't believe that the holocaust happened, not even one isolated individual. Shouldn't be too surprising considering how many Jewish Americans are liberal.... I don't know what you people are doing right now, but it kind of looks like you took a nose dive down the rabbit hole.
> 
> For another thing, the Nazi Party was only the "socialist worker's party" in name. Their actual policies and propaganda were fascist, meaning it was nothing more than brain washed, dumbed down, Koolaid drinking *flag waving hyper nationalism* controlled by a totalitarian regime. Corporations were handed political power over labor within the party, it was elitism at it's finest, and the crowds roared. Everything was controlled by the elite. Labor had no say. Scandinavians are more socialist today than Germany ever has been, and to my knowledge no one is currently suffering through a "final solution." They're quite happy, actually. What you apparently don't know about socialism could be covered in nothing less of a thousand page book, so I'll just stop here.


Interesting. The thread subject is the denial of the holocaust, and while socialism is never mentioned, you find it necessary to defend it. Maybe it's the mention of the "left", which sadly does favor socialistic ideals. In poker that's what's known as a "tell".


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Jolly said:


> I asked a very simple question of another member. It was not a personal question. It was well within the rules of this board. It was germaine to the discussion at hand. *The question, asked multiple times in an effort to obtain an answer,* has been deleted by WR.
> 
> Therefore, let me ask the board at large, as *some may have differing views* as to whether the historical event happened or not...
> 
> Did the Holocaust happen?


Yes, it happened.

Did you ask the question multiple times in an effort to obtain an answer that was more suitable to your own differing beliefs? If so that's probably why your multiple times asked question was deleted. No point in flogging a dead horse multiple times when there is only one true answer.

Yes, it happened.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Yes it happened. Most of the emphasis has been on the death of Jews in the holocaust because they were the majority of the victims. However there were millions of others. Of the 11 million who died six million were Polish citizens - 3 million were Jews and 3 million were Christians. 

The world is shocked by the beheadings by ISIL and other terror groups but the Nazis executed more than 17,000 people by guillotine.

How quickly we forget - or don't want to know or straight out lie because it interferes with our agenda.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

ONLY a little off thread here. I've always marveled at the depravity of the people working in the Nazi death camps. Were they always without empathy? Were they raving psychopaths? How did they last beyond the first hour of the first day?

Then I saw the videos of the two planned parenthood doctors. I'm sad to say people haven't changed in the 70+ years since the camps were shut down. People with the same callousness are still walking amongst us, but now the camps are called clinics.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Interesting. The thread subject is the denial of the holocaust, and while socialism is never mentioned, you find it necessary to defend it. Maybe it's the mention of the "left", which sadly does favor socialistic ideals. In poker that's what's known as a "tell".


She's the one who compared the Nazis to the left. I assumed that was because the actual translation of the NAZI acronym is "National *Socialist* German Worker's Party." She implied that Nazism and modern socialism are the same thing. 

So basically, your whole post is nothing but a bunch of half baked false presumptions. There is no "tell" here, I was speaking pretty directly. Looks like you outsmarted yourself.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

7thswan said:


> So what? call it what you want, give it another name, *it's the same-big goverment control*. Many Countrys are on the same ladder just diffrent rungs on the way to the bottom.


No it isn't. At all. And that has been proven for decades now. Your assertion that the "socialism" you believe the liberals in this country aspire to will ultimately lead to the same thing the Nazis brought to the table is nothing more than a fallacy. An interesting side note... Henry Ford, who hated unions and hired thugs to threaten, bully, and physically assault his workers........he loved the Nazis. He had a picture of Hitler on his desk, and Hitler had a picture of him on his desk. In our country, the closest we have ever come to Nazis were the wealthy, corporatist, aristocratic elites. Not the socialists.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

emdeengee said:


> The world is shocked by the beheadings by ISIL and other terror groups but the Nazis executed more than 17,000 people by guillotine.


ISIS seems to be trying to catch up


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

wiscto said:


> No it isn't. At all. And that has been proven for decades now. Your assertion that the "socialism" you believe the liberals in this country aspire to will ultimately lead to the same thing the Nazis brought to the table is nothing more than a fallacy. An interesting side note... Henry Ford, who hated unions and hired thugs to threaten, bully, and physically assault his workers........he loved the Nazis. He had a picture of Hitler on his desk, and Hitler had a picture of him on his desk. In our country, the closest we have ever come to Nazis were the wealthy, corporatist, aristocratic elites. Not the socialists.


Don't forget George Soros, the guy who bought the throne for Obama
He was a Nazi sympathizer in his youth, turning in friends and neighbors so they could be sent to the camps.
Birds of a feather :buds:


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

Yes of course it happened. And it is important to keep teaching about it, so hopefully all genocide will end


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Cornhusker said:


> Don't forget George Soros, the guy who bought the throne for Obama
> He was a Nazi sympathizer in his youth, turning in friends and neighbors so they could be sent to the camps.
> Birds of a feather :buds:


I love this. It's so awesome when people here reveal the strings that are making them dance. I know exactly why you think this is true, and I think it's hilarious. The smear campaign against George Soros has never been anything but a hit job designed to demonize a political player and sell people like you what you desperately want to hear. It was nothing more than Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh jumping on a bull chip article printed in the Toronto Sun, which was based on an intentional misreading and misrepresentation of what George Soros said about his life during World War II. There was no truth to Ezra Levant and Glenn Beck's version. Zero. George Soros did absolutely none of those things. I don't like George Soros' campaign spending, I want reform, but this is one of the most despicable hack jobs I have witnessed in my life. For gods sake, even reason.com, owned by the socialism hating Libertarian _Reason Foundation _busted Glenn Beck for this crap, and that was before it came out that Ezra Levant was lying about Soros' experience during the war in the first place.

http://reason.com/blog/2010/11/12/glenn-becks-ridiculous-misread
http://mediamatters.org/research/2010/09/20/toronto-sun-corrects-soros-nazi-smear/170877
http://www.alternet.org/story/14883...nn_beck's_'_monstrous'_report_on_george_soros
http://mediamatters.org/research/2011/08/22/glenn-becks-history-of-using-the-holocaust-to-a/181577

And the worst part about all this is that they do it because George Soros is the weakest link they can find. That's it. That's all there is to it. And it's all pointless. Nobody owes George Soros, in fact, most people on the left are clamoring for campaign finance reform because of people like Soros. Either way, 57% of Obama's 2008 donations were under $1,000. It wasn't quite as impressive in 2012, but Soros' contributions in both campaigns were a drop in the bucket. 
https://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/ Still sure of your regurgitated FOX News Republican rhetoric?
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ama/obama-campaign-financed-large-donors-too/

And seriously. Glenn Beck is nothing more than Rupert Murdoch's personal attack dog. And you're the kibble that keeps him alive.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

wiscto said:


> She's the one who compared the Nazis to the left. I assumed that was because the actual translation of the NAZI acronym is "National *Socialist* German Worker's Party." She implied that Nazism and modern socialism are the same thing.
> 
> So basically, your whole post is nothing but a bunch of half baked false presumptions. There is no "tell" here, I was speaking pretty directly. Looks like you outsmarted yourself.


Your knee jerk assumption that she was referring to socialism, and your need to defend it was the "tell".

She's right of course, big government/socialism/communism/fascism does attract sickos. From Stalin to Mao to Pol Pot to ?


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

So Soros wasn't a Nazi collaborator? Funny, I heard him interviewed years ago, and he admitted working for them and said he had no regrets for what he did in regards fellow Jews.

Maybe it was Glenn Beck dubbing the tape using a bad accent?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

keenataz said:


> Yes of course it happened. And it is important to keep teaching about it, so hopefully all genocide will end


Failure to teach about white slavery makes a difference in people's black guilt.
Now, people refuse to learn it.

The holocaust I fear will be forgotten but for old dementia ridden nuts who speak in a generation or two.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Here's a true story. 

When my ex was a little boy in Queens, he had a nanny, a German woman married to a local Irishman. One day she showed up at the door and told my ex's mother, "I won't be coming to babysit anymore, they found me". When my ex's mother asked her what on earth she was talking about, she responded, "well you know the Jews never forget anything".

She was later extradited to Germany and stood trial for war crimes. I don't remember the outcome, I'll have to look it up, Let me see what I can find. Somewhere I have copies of microfiche about the case but I suspect much of it will be on line now.

ETA This is her https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermine_Braunsteiner


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Your knee jerk assumption that she was referring to socialism, and your need to defend it was the "tell".
> 
> She's right of course, big government/socialism/communism/fascism does attract sickos. From Stalin to Mao to Pol Pot to ?


My "knee jerk reaction" was based on the fact that everyone here thinks the ideology of the left is "socialist," that she's used the word "socialism" many times....and then she responded as if I were correct in my assumption. At this point you're just arguing because you want to argue.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Ozarks Tom said:


> So Soros wasn't a Nazi collaborator? Funny, I heard him interviewed years ago, and he admitted working for them and said he had no regrets for what he did in regards fellow Jews.
> 
> Maybe it was Glenn Beck dubbing the tape using a bad accent?


[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW8ENFOCeBs[/ame] 

As always, it's your analysis that is off. The only thing he was told to do, while undercover as a Christian, was to help confiscate property. He said that he felt no guilt because he knew the property was going to be taken no matter what he did. He was only doing what he needed to do. He also said that he was young and didn't understand the connection between what he was seeing and what would happen. He never admitted to "collaborating" with the Nazis to identify and arrest Jews. That was all created by the people who sold it to you. You don't have the like the guy. I don't even like the guy. But what you're shoveling is 100% BS taken out of context. Calling him a sympathizer based on this interview in order to smear the man publicly is something an evil person would do, honestly, and holocaust survivors went after Glenn Beck for it.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Is this true, then? It's something that puportedly was written by Soros' faather:

_In his 1965 memoir of the wartime, MasqueradeâDancing Around Death in Nazi-Occupied Hungary, George Sorosâ father, Tivadar Soros, devoted an entire chapter to the Jewish Council, and his sonâs involvement.

âWhen systematic persecution of the Jews began,â Tivadar Soros wrote,âit was carried out not by the Germans, nor by their Hungarian lackeys, butâmost astonishinglyâby the Jews themselves. One of the first things the Germans did was to form a so-called Jewish Council, consisting of the leaders of the Jewish community. Council members were made personally responsible for the implementation of the various German measures relating to the Jewish population. As a reward, they, their families, and those who worked for them were exempted, at least at the beginning, from these restrictionsâ¦ The Jewish Council carried out the German wishes far more conscientiously than the Germans could themselves.â
Tivadar Soros described his son Georgeâs role.âAs Jews couldnât go to school any more and their teachers couldnât teach, they were ordered to report to council headquarters. The children were enlisted as couriers under the command of their teachers. My younger son, George, also became a courier. On the second day, he returned home at seven in the evening.

"âWhat did you do all day?ââMostly nothing. But this afternoon I was given some notices to deliver to various addresses.ââDid you read what they said?ââI even brought one home.â He handed me a small slip of paper, with a typewritten message [a summons].âDo you know what this means?â I asked him.âI can guess,â he replied, with great seriousness.âTheyâll be interned.ââ

Tivadar Soros observed that George was âclearly disappointed that I wouldnât let him work anymore. He was beginning to enjoy his career as a courier; it was all a big adventure.â George Soros went on to adopt the identity of the godson of a mid-level Hungarian official, responsible for the confiscation of Jewish property of wealthy Jews shipped off to Auschwitz. In at least two television interviews, in 1994 and 1998, Soros freely admitted to his Nazi collaboration, and declared that he felt no guilt over his actions, or over the extermination of nearly a half million of his fellow Hungarian Jews.
_


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Jolly said:


> There are large segments of the population who do not think it happened or have never heard it happened.
> 
> According to this article, half of the world's population does not know or is not aware the Holocaust happened:
> 
> http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at...ary-number-of-people-say-no-or-not-even-aware


What really chaps my fanny, is that even the people know about the holocaust thinknit was when the Nazis killed the Jews in ww2. Not only do they have no understanding of how many other people died, and no idea about what Japan did to the Chinese and other Asian Pacific enemies, they have no understanding of any of the other genocides in history, or the ones going on right now.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Tricky Grama said:


> OMG 7th, bless your family!
> I've met a couple survivors, now dead. They certainly have a different perspective on "life".


We moved to a neighborhood when I was eight that was almost all Jewish and many, many of them were survivors who were in the camps. I praise God that I spent years being around them. Growing up with them taking so much time to share life and stories with me gas truly been a blessing that I would be a lesser person for not have having. I feel very fortunate to have known them.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

gibbsgirl said:


> What really chaps my fanny, is that even the people know about the holocaust thinknit was when the Nazis killed the Jews in ww2. Not only do they have no understanding of how many other people died, and no idea about what Japan did to the Chinese and other Asian Pacific enemies, they have no understanding of any of the other genocides in history, or the ones going on right now.


How many people know that Stalin starved more people to death in the Ukraine, than Hitler killed in the death camps?


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Fennick said:


> Yes, it happened.
> 
> Did you ask the question multiple times in an effort to obtain an answer that was more suitable to your own differing beliefs? If so that's probably why your multiple times asked question was deleted. No point in flogging a dead horse multiple times when there is only one true answer.
> 
> Yes, it happened.


I asked the question multiple times, because the person I asked it of would not answer yes, or no, if the Holocaust actually happened.

I was amazed that anyone, no matter what political stripe or what stance they may take on a controversial subject, could not say "Yes, it happened".

So, I decided to do a bit of googling through the internet...Come to find out, there are a lot of people that doubt that it happened or doubt that it happened the way the Nuremberg trials portrayed the atrocities.

If the majority of people in a country believe that (it did not happen), how long before they target some group of people for their own Solution?


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Jolly said:


> How many people know that Stalin starved more people to death in the Ukraine, than Hitler killed in the death camps?


I know that 10 million Russian military died and 10 million Russian civilians (majority were Ukrainians) died during WW2.

Here is a chart that shows the death toll of WW2 for all peoples/nations involved. *48,231,700* 

http://warchronicle.com/numbers/WWII/deaths.htm


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Jolly said:


> Is this true, then? It's something that puportedly was written by Soros' faather:
> 
> _In his 1965 memoir of the wartime, Masquerade&#8212;Dancing Around Death in Nazi-Occupied Hungary, George Soros&#8217; father, Tivadar Soros, devoted an entire chapter to the Jewish Council, and his son&#8217;s involvement.
> 
> ...


Now now. You know better than to quote without a link. Especially since the bolded part has been challenged by Jewish organizations. http://www.jewishjournal.com/nation...at_glenn_beck_attack_on_george_soros_20101111

I'm pretty sure I found your link. And here is the part you left out. WHAT HE ACTUALLY SAID. 



> It is a sacreligious thing to say, but these ten months [of the Nazi occupation] were the happiest times of my life... We led an adventurous life and we had fun together.


 http://www.larouchepub.com/pr_lar/2008/lar_pac/080715soros_perfidy.html

If you actually listen to the interview, which I was kind enough to post, you will know that this quote was taken out of context. He said that this was because of the danger to him, that he didn't consider what he was doing to be a direct attack on the Jewish people because it was something that he couldn't stop from happening, it was part of his disguise to fool the Nazis. It's also worth noting that while he understood that they were being interned, he was naive in regards to what that meant. He said it...in the actual interview...which I posted....

And again, I'll challenge you to prove to me that the existence of George Soros and this highly despicable smear campaign against him has even the TINIEST shred of meaning. His money is a drop in the bucket in politics. I challenge you to learn the recent history that has brought this George Soros story to light, and how Holocaust survivors and the Jewish Community feel about it. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/jan/27/rupert-murdoch-fox And since you seem to be weighing in with 7thSwan and that other one, I challenge you to make a meaningful connection between Holocaust deniers and the American Left. 

Because if you can't do any of that, you're just another guy callously exploiting Holocaust truthiness to "win" a political argument.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Sotos was a kid when it happened, so I don't begrudge him not seeing things through the eyes of an adult.

But I have no respect for a person who lived through that and that is so wealthy and powerful not using their resources in their adopted country at least do make a greater impact on helping its citizens to see things in a way that encourages them to be as vigilant as possible to ensure that current and future youth can never be put into the same type of situation he survived.

I just don' t respect that. If I were him, that is what I would want my legacy to be and to be known for.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

Born in 55, grew up in Oak Park,Mi. At that time this was a very strong Jewish community.
We were considered one of the gentile islands that lived in the neighborhoods. Over 90% of the kids I went to school with my whole life there either their parents or grandparents had survived the camps. I thank god every day for what these people taught me in humanity and education for life. So did the holocaust happen? Absolutely, I am proof to it as I walked among the people who lived through it and learned from them.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

gibbsgirl said:


> Sotos was a kid when it happened, so I don't begrudge him not seeing things through the eyes of an adult.
> 
> But I have no respect for a person who lived through that and that is so wealthy and powerful not using their resources in their adopted country at least do make a greater impact on helping its citizens to see things in a way that encourages them to be as vigilant as possible to ensure that current and future youth can never be put into the same type of situation he survived.
> 
> I just don' t respect that. If I were him, that is what I would want my legacy to be and to be known for.


Well, I don't necessarily like the guy, but I at least try to know a little something about what he stands for without relying on the Koch/Murdoch funded pundits/brats to tell me what that is... 

Here's the evil "communist" man in his own words and the words of his foundation....

http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/people/george-soros



> Soros began his philanthropy in 1979, giving scholarships to black South Africans under apartheid. In the 1980s, *he helped undermine Communism in the Eastern Bloc* by providing Xerox machines to copy banned texts, and supporting cultural exchanges with the West.


Here's how Russia reacted to more recent activities. Kind of makes you wonder why Glenn Beck and Vladimir Putin have so much in common... http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/08/billionaire-soros-charity-may-get-banned-in-russia-crackdown.html

Here's what he's doing to stop, for example, soldiers killing civilians in Columbia. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/07/business/07gift.html

I mean the man's money is far from doing horrifying things. Glenn Beck is a weird, weird guy... Well, not really. Like I said, when it comes to George Soros, Rupert Murdoch is just using Glenn Beck like an attack dog. It's a rich guy fight, try not to get sucked into the middle.


----------



## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

I think the difference for me from what you're trying to point out is that I'm just very comfortable looking at all kinds of sources of information because I consider that most are highly biased and propagandized. Even the ones where people genuinely attempt not to be. The n, you add the fact that media don't really look for stories anymire, they chase them and look for bits that will fit the script they're hoping to compile.

So, I'm fine taking info from all kinds of sources and finding value and bunk hidden in all of it. There's no such thing as accurate, objective reporting anywhere. So, considering the source only gets you so far.


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Fennick said:


> I know that 10 million Russian military died and 10 million Russian civilians (majority were Ukrainians) died during WW2.
> 
> Here is a chart that shows the death toll of WW2 for all peoples/nations involved. *48,231,700*
> 
> http://warchronicle.com/numbers/WWII/deaths.htm


Before WWII started, Stalin starved 7,000,000 people to death in the Ukraine. It was one of the worst genocides of the 20th century.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/stalin.htm


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

gibbsgirl said:


> I think the difference for me from what you're trying to point out is that I'm just very comfortable looking at all kinds of sources of information because I consider that most are highly biased and propagandized. Even the ones where people genuinely attempt not to be. The n, you add the fact that media don't really look for stories anymire, they chase them and look for bits that will fit the script they're hoping to compile.
> 
> So, I'm fine taking info from all kinds of sources and finding value and bunk hidden in all of it. There's no such thing as accurate, objective reporting anywhere. So, considering the source only gets you so far.












No offense, but the difference, I feel, is that I_ actually do_ look at all kinds of sources and information because I consider that most are highly biased and propagandized. But I completely agree. The media is a cesspool.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

wiscto said:


> No offense, but the difference, I feel, is that I_ actually do_ look at all kinds of sources and information because I consider that most are highly biased and propagandized. But I completely agree. The media is a cesspool.



I don't doubt you actually do read from a lot of sources. IMO, you're only doing cheating yourself though if you judge other people's posts as dismissabke because you think they don't avail themselves of many sources as well.

The nice thing about being on the threads, IMO is reading other folks thoughts and links, not fighting excessively to prove them wrong.

And, really at the end of the day no matter how well read any of us are, we won"?'t all have read everything, and none of us will be able to know if we've discerned the truth with total accuracy.

It just is what it is.


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

Yes it happened, with help...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

IBM was instrumental in supplying the needed organization to make it happen.

http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/chapter_06.htm

Then there was Henry Ford...


> The wall behind his desk in Hitler's private office is decorated with a large picture of Henry Ford.





> In July 1942 word filtered back to Washington from Ford of France about Ford's activities on behalf of the German war effort in Europe. The incriminating information was promptly buried and even today only part of the known documentation can be traced in Washington.


There is more...

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-american-companies-that-aided-the-nazis.php

http://listverse.com/2013/10/24/10-big-business-nazi-profiteers/

Oh, and blame Bush  Grandpa Bush was a financial backer of NAZI Germany. 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

wiscto said:


> I love this. It's so awesome when people here reveal the strings that are making them dance. I know exactly why you think this is true, and I think it's hilarious. The smear campaign against George Soros has never been anything but a hit job designed to demonize a political player and sell people like you what you desperately want to hear. It was nothing more than Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh jumping on a bull chip article printed in the Toronto Sun, which was based on an intentional misreading and misrepresentation of what George Soros said about his life during World War II. There was no truth to Ezra Levant and Glenn Beck's version. Zero. George Soros did absolutely none of those things. I don't like George Soros' campaign spending, I want reform, but this is one of the most despicable hack jobs I have witnessed in my life. For gods sake, even reason.com, owned by the socialism hating Libertarian _Reason Foundation _busted Glenn Beck for this crap, and that was before it came out that Ezra Levant was lying about Soros' experience during the war in the first place.
> 
> http://reason.com/blog/2010/11/12/glenn-becks-ridiculous-misread
> http://mediamatters.org/research/2010/09/20/toronto-sun-corrects-soros-nazi-smear/170877
> ...


You are quoting Media Matters....owned by Soros
Hay, if you like a Nazi, that's on you, this is America, and you can admire whatever you want
Beck doesn't work for Murdoch, you need to do some research


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Cornhusker said:


> *You are quoting Media Matters....owned by Soros*
> Hay, if you like a Nazi, that's on you, this is America, and you can admire whatever you want
> Beck doesn't work for Murdoch, you need to do some research


Hey look, another flat out lie.

Oh excuse me I worded that wrong. Glenn Beck absolutely *worked *for FOX News when he went after Soros over the matter in question. George Soros made it a point to expose Rupert Murdoch and counter his propaganda, so Rupert Murdoch sent his dogs after Soros. *Media Matters is a NON-PROFIT founded by David Brock*. The real irony of your post is that even if all of the various funds George Soros donates to in turn funded Media Matters the same amount every year and all at the same time, he doesn't account for a large enough majority of Media Matters to even say that he "kind of" owns them. If you had done THAT research, you would have known.

Yes. Media Matters was developed to expose the lies of FOX News and other right wing media outlets. Why shouldn't they, since FOX claims that they have taken it upon themselves to expose the lies of the left, and yet they can't seem to stop embellishing, twisting, manipulating and outright lying at a rate we have never seen in this country. 

HAY (horses?), if you want to keep walking down the gang plank Rupert Murdoch laid out for you, you go right ahead. Keep on calling an innocent man a Nazi....because FOX NEWS lied to you....show those true colors.


----------



## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

wiscto said:


> Hey look, another flat out lie.
> 
> Oh excuse me I worded that wrong. Glenn Beck absolutely *worked *for FOX News when he went after Soros over the matter in question. George Soros made it a point to expose Rupert Murdoch and counter his propaganda, so Rupert Murdoch sent his dogs after Soros. *Media Matters is a NON-PROFIT founded by David Brock*. The real irony of your post is that even if all of the various funds George Soros donates to in turn funded Media Matters the same amount every year and all at the same time, he doesn't account for a large enough majority of Media Matters to even say that he "kind of" owns them. If you had done THAT research, you would have known.
> 
> ...


Don't you think the political vitriol hurts your unbiased sources argument?


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

wiscto said:


> Hey look, another flat out lie.
> 
> Oh excuse me I worded that wrong. Glenn Beck absolutely *worked *for FOX News when he went after Soros over the matter in question. George Soros made it a point to expose Rupert Murdoch and counter his propaganda, so Rupert Murdoch sent his dogs after Soros. *Media Matters is a NON-PROFIT founded by David Brock*. The real irony of your post is that even if all of the various funds George Soros donates to in turn funded Media Matters the same amount every year and all at the same time, he doesn't account for a large enough majority of Media Matters to even say that he "kind of" owns them. If you had done THAT research, you would have known.
> 
> ...


Fox news is the most trusted news channel which you'd know if you weren't hooked on the propaganda channels
I don't know why you need to be so rude, although it is typical of leftists.
Any chance of you having a discussion without acting like a 3 year old?
Oh, and I don't lie, FYI


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Jolly said:


> Don't you think the political vitriol hurts your unbiased sources argument?


Don't you think that I should actually say the things you say I say before you say I say them? I didn't make an unbiased sources argument. As always, I make the argument that FOX News is the worst.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Cornhusker said:


> Fox news is the most trusted news channel which you'd know if you weren't hooked on the propaganda channels
> I don't know why you need to be so rude, although it is typical of leftists.
> Any chance of you having a discussion without acting like a 3 year old?
> Oh, and I don't lie, FYI


You're so full of it. I do watch FOX News, it's just something I do when I feel like knowing where people like you get all the parrot words you learn. For example, who says FOX News is the most trusted CABLE news network? FOX NEWS DOES, as loud and as often as they can, even though there's actually a different way to look at that study. The only thing that study really demonstrates is that FOX News viewers; so, right leaning people, are less objectively skeptical, less likely to do additional research beyond FOX News, and less likely to question the bias of their news authority because they are prone to bias themselves. Whereas left leaning folks don't even trust MSNBC, because they don't trust any of the cable news networks. Here's an actual research paper on that.... 
http://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery...111124127070122003102074070094&EXT=pdf&TYPE=2


Don't you think it's kind of telling that you all just blindly trust your CABLE news provider, while everyone else is blessed with a healthy dose of skepticism toward *all* news providers? I mean think about that. You all fall right in step with your right wing talking heads. Meanwhile, all those liberals you call "blind" and "naive" don't trust the left wing talking heads nearly as much, in fact, they kind of hate MSNBC. Think about that. Which one of us is less bias? Hmmm.

Luckily, FOX News isn't the only one doing studies on this sort of thing. Turns out, people who don't watch any news at all know more than people who watch only FOX News. 

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2011/11/22/seven-surveys-make-a-trend-for-fox-and-viewers/167217
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapo...s-uninformed-npr-listeners-not-poll-suggests/
http://www.businessinsider.com/stud...-informed-than-watching-no-news-at-all-2012-5

FOX News was born, in the first place, out of a misconception of the American media. Where as the media is primarily composed of left leaning reporters attempting to be objective, FOX News and the right wing revolution is nothing more than a bunch of right leaning reporters pretending to be objective. They're a Kool-Aid dispensary. Studies have shown time and time again that FOX isn't even attempting to give you all of the facts in any given story. 

Good luck to you. Because every time you try to "tell me how it is" in that conceited manner the right loves to invoke, I'm going to bring in the other side of the conversation you never knew existed. Because frankly, while you all may believe that the rest of the media is just as bad....you're wrong. And that mistake could be very costly to all of us.


----------



## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

wiscto said:


> You're so full of it. I do watch FOX News, it's just something I do when I feel like knowing where people like you get all the parrot words you learn. For example, who says FOX News is the most trusted CABLE news network? FOX NEWS DOES, as loud and as often as they can, even though there's actually a different way to look at that study. The only thing that study really demonstrates is that FOX News viewers; so, right leaning people, are less objectively skeptical, less likely to do additional research beyond FOX News, and less likely to question the bias of their news authority because they are prone to bias themselves. Whereas left leaning folks don't even trust MSNBC, because they don't trust any of the cable news networks. Here's an actual research paper on that....
> http://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery...111124127070122003102074070094&EXT=pdf&TYPE=2
> 
> _You say only FOX News says they're the most trusted (according to polls). Do you really expect MSNBC or CNN to tell people about those polls? If the left doesn't trust cable news, are you saying the trust the even more biased ABC, CBS, NBC? Apparently you trust Media Matters, who couldn't be more slanted if they tried._
> ...


_My God! You've got the nerve to call someone else conceited? Arrogance and condescension drip from nearly your every word. Try reading your own post sometime._


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Ozarks Tom said:


> _My God! You've got the nerve to call someone else conceited? Arrogance and condescension drip from nearly your every word. Try reading your own post sometime._


Oh I didn't say that I wasn't. If I were a better man I wouldn't even be here shooting fish in a barrel. When I first came here I just wanted to offer my opinions. After I saw things like, "liberal nutjob," "naive," "you're just young," and all the vitriol y'all like to throw around this place, I decided that I could up my game a little. Yup. I'm right here in the mud with you. I'm just better informed.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

wiscto said:


> Oh I didn't say that I wasn't. If I were a better man I wouldn't even be here shooting fish in a barrel. When I first came here I just wanted to offer my opinions. After I saw things like, "liberal nutjob," "naive," "you're just young," and all the vitriol y'all like to throw around this place, I decided that I could up my game a little. Yup. I'm right here in the mud with you. I'm just better informed.


Of course you are. And rich. Not to mention good-looking.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Jolly said:


> Of course you are. And rich. Not to mention good-looking.


He cant be rich or he'd be retired.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

wiscto said:


> Oh I didn't say that I wasn't. *If I were a better man* I wouldn't even be here shooting fish in a barrel. When I first came here I just wanted to offer my opinions. After I saw things like, "liberal nutjob," "naive," "you're just young," and all the vitriol y'all like to throw around this place, I decided that I could up my game a little. Yup. I'm right here in the mud with you. I'm just better informed.


I don't know why, but I'm shocked to find out you are a guy
Some names are hard to tell.
I just assumed you were a woman :facepalm:


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Cornhusker said:


> I don't know why, but I'm shocked to find out you are a guy
> Some names are hard to tell.
> I just assumed you were a woman :facepalm:


Trust me I know.
Just had the wool pull over my eyes... when dealing with a timebomb personality..who is easily offended.... I do the he/she thing.....till I get the bear facts.


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## Kmac15 (May 19, 2007)

When my son was in 4th grade his teacher brought in her father to speak. He talked about what he saw while serving in Europe at the end of WWII. The class was astonished at what men could do to one another. The teacher told me that she did it every year because she was afraid that the next generation would not believe it without hearing about it from someone that actually saw it.

yes it happened.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Cornhusker said:


> ISIS seems to be trying to catch up


Sure. Sure. They have a long way to go and then if you were to add in the number of civilians and soldiers beheaded by the Japanese during WW2 and before in the attack on China they have an even longer way to go.

My point was that we forget very quickly and opportunistically. We promote certain events and facts but leave out or change or even hide others. We interact and trust again because it pays us to do so. Never forgive Cuba but wholeheartedly accept and embrace Germany, Japan, Russia and China? Seriously? Sure. Sure. Because it pays.

And we get distracted too easily. Like a magician focusing our attention on one hand while the other is up to no good. IMO there is nothing that human beings will not do. All humans. Whatever we have done in the past we will do in the present and in the future. 

The OP was a question about the holocaust - did it really happen? I actually object to the term holocaust being used to describe one event. Since the Nazi extermination/genocide there have been dozens of holocausts/genocides killing millions of people around the world. So not only did it happen but it continues to happen so what is there to deny about any holocaust?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Just because we talk about a label Katrina... does not negate any other storm... but I focuses ones mind to a specific storm.

The holocaust term is an event .... for which some do deny.
There is forgotten and transformation of history has happened and will happen and it is wrong.... preschoolers may be getting a far better education do to the increase of material offered.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

Jolly said:


> Of course you are. And rich. Not to mention good-looking.


Yup. Nope. Yup. 



Cornhusker said:


> I don't know why, but I'm shocked to find out you are a guy
> Some names are hard to tell.
> I just assumed you were a woman :facepalm:


Cool story, bro. :thumb:


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

What Isis is doing to people living within its growing borders is horrific in my book. But, besides the treatment and executions, I'm horrified by the damage they are doing to the cultural history there. That will effect far more than just the generation alive and in residence right now.

The artifacts and historic sites are being destroyed forever. And, there are so many places there where the population already has not had very good access to education and even basic literacy. It's just tragic.

And, I hate that they're telling those people that they have to destroy all those items because God demands that they have no place here because they are sacrilegious. Because there's a ton of it that they aren't destroying, but are selling on the black market to bolster their coffers.

The buyers have blood on their hands as much as the isis sellers. I wonder if a better education in understanding the massive confiscation and profiteering perpetrated by the Nazis of art and artifacts would have helped anyone step back there and see how wrong it is? Guess we'll never know for sure, but we do know that the holocaust being true history us disputed in some of those places.


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

kasilofhome said:


> Just because we talk about a label Katrina... does not negate any other storm... but I focuses ones mind to a specific storm.
> 
> The holocaust term is an event .... for which some do deny.
> There is forgotten and transformation of history has happened and will happen and it is wrong.... preschoolers may be getting a far better education do to the increase of material offered.


Unfortunately not true. We are conditioned by the use of a term when it is constantly used to address a specific to think of it only as relevant to that specific. The meaning changes. ie gay no longer means happy, cheerful, lively. 

When someone talks about the holocaust no one thinks about the genocide/holocaust in Cambodia or Armenia or Bosnia or the Sudan or Rawanda or Uganda or China or the Ukraine. We only think about what Germany did. In fact if you look up the word holocaust in the MW or Oxford the primary definition is the mass murder of Jews under the Nazis.

We need to remember that it is still happening all around us TODAY.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Em

I understand.... when militant fraction takes a word a pc's it then yes those who follow in line queerly do effectively distort language, communication, and history.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

gibbsgirl said:


> What Isis is doing to people living within its growing borders is horrific in my book. But, besides the treatment and executions, I'm horrified by the damage they are doing to the cultural history there. That will effect far more than just the generation alive and in residence right now.
> 
> The artifacts and historic sites are being destroyed forever. And, there are so many places there where the population already has not had very good access to education and even basic literacy. It's just tragic.
> 
> ...


I hear the exact same thing from First Nations up here. Probably what you call Native Americans. White men came here destroyed their culture, stole their relics, forced their religion on them. 

I am not attempting to justify ISIS at all. But our historical hands aren't clean.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

Anyone has a right to an opinion on this, or any other subject, and the right to express those opinions, without being insulted or in some countries, imprisoned because of those questions. 

Any subject, story, etc., that cannot be questioned, seems to me the one that needs questioning.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

wiscto said:


> Oh I didn't say that I wasn't. If I were a better man I wouldn't even be here shooting fish in a barrel. When I first came here I just wanted to offer my opinions. After I saw things like, "liberal nutjob," "naive," "you're just young," and all the vitriol y'all like to throw around this place, I decided that I could up my game a little. Yup. I'm right here in the mud with you. I'm just better informed.


I'm very glad you ARE here.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

keenataz said:


> I hear the exact same thing from First Nations up here. Probably what you call Native Americans. White men came here destroyed their culture, stole their relics, forced their religion on them.
> 
> I am not attempting to justify ISIS at all. But our historical hands aren't clean.


I never meant to imply they were. Native Americans and first Nations aren't either, they fought each other before Europeans joined the mix. And, that's a valid point. But, it still upsets me. Isis is operating in the cradle of civilization, a place with thousands of years of history of many many many cultures. It's been war torn and reconquered more times than is xountable. And, Isis is destroying and pillaging things that are what's left of what wasn't destroyed by time and prior wars. I think that's sad and leaves the current populations with even less than they started with.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

gibbsgirl said:


> I never meant to imply they were. Native Americans and first Nations aren't either, they fought each other before Europeans joined the mix. And, that's a valid point. But, it still upsets me. Isis is operating in the cradle of civilization, a place with thousands of years of history of many many many cultures. It's been war torn and reconquered more times than is xountable. And, Isis is destroying and pillaging things that are what's left of what wasn't destroyed by time and prior wars. I think that's sad and leaves the current populations with even less than they started with.


I haven't been keeping up with exactly who the bad guys are in the ME, but I have been concerned about the destruction of history in the ME. I remember seeing existing archaeological digs being literally destroyed by people using backhoes when we were fighting there.

Also, there were the stories of the looting and destruction of Iraqi museums, after we had entered. It made me wonder. 

There have been some stories about the possibility of ancient Sumerian tablets having been smuggled out - be interesting to see exactly what is in those tablets.

I'm sorry, I know this is off the topic of 'Did It Happen' and I would really like to hear more on that.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

IMO, its not that OT Trixie. It's just the same did it happen question being applied to examining the cruelties and destruction of Isis now vs Nazis then.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

gibbsgirl said:


> IMO, its not that OT Trixie. It's just the same did it happen question being applied to examining the cruelties and destruction of Isis now vs Nazis then.


I was lecturing myself. I'm the worst to get off topic and I totally agree with you.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

ISIS is microscopic compared to the resources the Nazis had. I'm afraid that if they even had half the means Germany had, millions would be dead. The reason I think that...








[/IMG]



















If they could, I think they would turn that jigsaw puzzle into a nice solid Sunni-Arab map from Jerusalem to Pakistan. All of those various ethnic groups, especially the Shiite ones, would be "cleansed."


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

The world never before had, and hopefully never will again, seen genocide on the systematic, industrial level that the nazis employed.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

wiscto said:


> ISIS is microscopic compared to the resources the Nazis had. I'm afraid that if they even had half the means Germany had, millions would be dead. The reason I think that...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The numbers aren't to ww2 axis levels yet. But they're more than some other genocidal regimes.

And, their goals are pretty far reaching as I understand it.

Also, the real numbers of their accomplishments really should include a lot of " affiliates" numbers too. And, those affiliates whether renamed or out of commission currently, have a track record that spans many years and many nations and continents.


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

vicker said:


> The world never before had, and hopefully never will again, seen genocide on the systematic, industrial level that the nazis employed.


What the Nazis did was tragic and absolutely on a massive scale.

But, it was not actually that unique. I would encourage any interested to also look into the fast and ugly work done by japan in that same war. It's quite staggering.

They even took it a step further because they "encouraged" their own citizens to kill themselves rather than surrender, which us something the Nazis aren't well known for doing.

Had a friend many years ago who's father hid an English language book towards the end if the war. Apparently others who were caught with such paraphernalia were executed if caught. He risked his life to secretly learn what English he could. His family did not want to commit suicide, and he was desperate to learn enough English to beg for he and his family's lives once the "scary" Americans arrived. 

He was away from his family so he had to keep the book so he'd be the only one killed if caught. His parents and sister were terrified. After the war he and his family ended up eventually coming here to live.

The Japanese had genocidal killings, invasions, an industrial war machine with great success, and forced work camps like the Nazis, and we went to war against them first and defeated them last.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

wiscto said:


> ISIS is microscopic compared to the resources the Nazis had. I'm afraid that if they even had half the means Germany had, millions would be dead. The reason I think that...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Never think you have to have a majority to rule a country.

America's independence was secured by 1/3 of its population. Hitler's Nazi party was not the majority of Germans when it rose to power. Sadaam Hussein ran roughshod over a large population of Shiites and just about exterminated the Swamp Tribes.

A determined minority can overcome an unorganized majority.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

vicker said:


> The world never before had, and hopefully never will again, seen genocide on the systematic, industrial level that the nazis employed.


Geghis Kahn, Pol Pot, Stalin, others too! Let's not forget about the Armenian genocide.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

JeffreyD said:


> Geghis Kahn, Pol Pot, Stalin, others too! Let's not forget about the Armenian genocide.


And Mao is the winner with a score of 65MILLION dead. 

http://www.heritage.org/research/commentary/2010/02/the-legacy-of-mao-zedong-is-mass-murder


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

DEKE01 said:


> And Mao is the winner with a score of 65MILLION dead.
> 
> http://www.heritage.org/research/commentary/2010/02/the-legacy-of-mao-zedong-is-mass-murder


Well, to be fair, Mao did have a bigger base population to work with...


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

DEKE01 said:


> And Mao is the winner with a score of 65MILLION dead.
> 
> http://www.heritage.org/research/commentary/2010/02/the-legacy-of-mao-zedong-is-mass-murder


Man, how could I forget him! Thanks!! Wasn't an Obama appointee a huge fan of his?


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> Man, how could I forget him! Thanks!! Wasn't an Obama appointee a huge fan of his?


Yup, & they had a Mao ornament on their Christmas tree. How special.
Can't remember her name, I think she was a czar in 1st term, but she WAS a member of the socialist party.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Shine said:


> I'm leaving this one open until God gives me the answer. His punishments have often been severe to the utmost as the Jewish people turned their back on Him all throughout the Old Testament with many resulting punishments. To summarize the New Testament, God used the Judaic Jews to kill His Son to bring in the New Covenant that now includes Gentile and Jew. This, from what I understand about the "Promised People" - in God's eyes, we are now all Jews.
> 
> I do not know anyone who was in the camps, I have never been there and I know very few Jews but here is where I stand:
> 
> My knowledge of the incident(s) is very vague, only what you read, so I do not feel competent in answering.


So Conservative Christian not only is on the fence about whether the Holocaust happened but also is willing to blow it off if it did as just God's punishment of the Jews (for what I would love to know and why the other 9 million non-Jews got dragged into that punishment too) and they get crickets? Not one single person addressed this? 

You hopped on the one and only non-conservative here who took the bait on this post. You preemptively attacked the Left and then kept it right up throughout the thread. And you never addressed your own. Hypocrisy at it's finest there. Unless of course you also agree those Jews probably deserved it and it was just God's judgement too......


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

Shine said:


> I'm leaving this one open until God gives me the answer. His punishments have often been severe to the utmost as the Jewish people turned their back on Him all throughout the Old Testament with many resulting punishments. To summarize the New Testament, God used the Judaic Jews to kill His Son to bring in the New Covenant that now includes Gentile and Jew. This, from what I understand about the "Promised People" - in God's eyes, we are now all Jews.
> 
> I do not know anyone who was in the camps, I have never been there and I know very few Jews but here is where I stand:
> 
> My knowledge of the incident(s) is very vague, only what you read, so I do not feel competent in answering.


What is the weather like on your planet?


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Patchouli said:


> So Conservative Christian not only is on the fence about whether the Holocaust happened but also is willing to blow it off if it did as just God's punishment of the Jews (for what I would love to know and why the other 9 million non-Jews got dragged into that punishment too) and they get crickets? Not one single person addressed this?
> 
> You hopped on the one and only non-conservative here who took the bait on this post. You preemptively attacked the Left and then kept it right up throughout the thread. And you never addressed your own. Hypocrisy at it's finest there. Unless of course you also agree those Jews probably deserved it and it was just God's judgement too......


I'm sorry. but she didn't say the Holocaust did not happen. Go back and read what she said...it's an actual point of theology and it falls under the heading of whether there exists a New Israel, or not.

To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> So Conservative Christian not only is on the fence about whether the Holocaust happened but also is willing to blow it off if it did as just God's punishment of the Jews (for what I would love to know and why the other 9 million non-Jews got dragged into that punishment too) and they get crickets? Not one single person addressed this?
> 
> You hopped on the one and only non-conservative here who took the bait on this post. You preemptively attacked the Left and then kept it right up throughout the thread. And you never addressed your own. Hypocrisy at it's finest there. Unless of course you also agree those Jews probably deserved it and it was just God's judgement too......


This is why you're my fave liberal! Good catch.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2015)

I believe it happened. I also believe it was afterwards politicized to rid some nations of their unwanted people's by focusing in on the horrors of one groups suffering. The holocaust was a horrific example of man's greed and lust for power. Man has free choice to follow or not according to my belief, so saying it was G.ds will is a stretch (to me).


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Jolly said:


> I'm sorry. but she didn't say the Holocaust did not happen. Go back and read what she said...it's an actual point of theology and it falls under the heading of whether there exists a New Israel, or not.
> 
> To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.


I said she was on the fence. And she also clearly stated if it did happen it was most likely God's will and harsh punishment of the Jews. You went after BFF for far less than that in the abortion thread.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Patchouli said:


> I said she was on the fence. And she also clearly stated if it did happen it was most likely God's will and harsh punishment of the Jews. You went after BFF for far less than that in the abortion thread.


I went after BFF with all four feet because the man would not answer a simple yes or no question, while simultaneously demanding that people produce reams of information to support their views.

Although that simple question was deleted, I'd still like to know the answer, because it would tell me an awful lot about the person to whom I am speaking.

Make no mistake, that was not a "are you still beating your wife type of question", but one that answered in the negative would have certainly shed some light on another's thought process.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Jolly said:


> I went after BFF with all four feet because the man would not answer a simple yes or no question
> .


 I recall asking you a direct, simple question multiple times on a different thread and never getting an answer.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> So Conservative Christian not only is on the fence about whether the Holocaust happened but also is willing to blow it off if it did as just God's punishment of the Jews (for what I would love to know and why the other 9 million non-Jews got dragged into that punishment too) and they get crickets? Not one single person addressed this?
> 
> You hopped on the one and only non-conservative here who took the bait on this post. You preemptively attacked the Left and then kept it right up throughout the thread. And you never addressed your own. Hypocrisy at it's finest there. Unless of course you also agree those Jews probably deserved it and it was just God's judgement too......


Why did you use the words "conservative Christian" to address the opinions of this one poster? There are probably a million or two people who consider themselves conservative and may be Christian too and would not hold to this idea.
Is it a counterpart to the complaint about attacking the "Left?"


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

greg273 said:


> I recall asking you a direct, simple question multiple times on a different thread and never getting an answer.


I'm sorry if I did not answer you

Ask away.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Jolly said:


> I went after BFF with all four feet because the man would not answer a simple yes or no question, while simultaneously demanding that people produce reams of information to support their views.
> 
> Although that simple question was deleted, I'd still like to know the answer, because it would tell me an awful lot about the person to whom I am speaking.
> 
> Make no mistake, that was not a "are you still beating your wife type of question", but one that answered in the negative would have certainly shed some light on another's thought process.


I now have a mental picture of you as a Cajun centaur. 

BFF is so fact oriented that I would be genuinely shocked if he was a Holocaust denier.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

where I want to said:


> Why did you use the words "conservative Christian" to address the opinions of this one poster? There are probably a million or two people who consider themselves conservative and may be Christian too and would not hold to this idea.
> Is it a counterpart to the complaint about attacking the "Left?"


Yes. In this case they were willing to ignore the response of someone on their side that was definitely non-committal on the idea of the Holocaust if nothing else. But they made preemptive attacks on the Liberal perspective. I actually would have left out the Christian part if Shine's response wasn't based entirely on the bible and her theology.


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## greg273 (Aug 5, 2003)

Jolly said:


> I'm sorry if I did not answer you
> 
> Ask away.


 Next time that particular subject comes up, I will. Thanks.


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