# New Zeeland shootings?



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Do I remember correctly that New Zeeland made the citizens turn in their guns?

Guess that goes to show the bumper stickers are right.

*When they take the guns away from honest citzens only crooks and terrioest will have guns.
*

 Al


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

alleyyooper said:


> Do I remember correctly that New Zeeland made the citizens turn in their guns?
> 
> Guess that goes to show the bumper stickers are right.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm

While authorities do not know exactly how many legally or illegally owned firearms are currently in circulation in New Zealand, estimates put the number at about 1.2 million, according to New Zealand Police. This figure equates to about one gun for every three people -- a rate that is considered high when compared with Australia, which has 3.15 million guns, approximately one for every eight people.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/15/asia/new-zealand-gun-control-intl/index.html


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Nearly 250,000 [1] licensed firearms owners own and use New Zealand's estimated 1.5 million [1] firearms.

Gun licenses are issued at the discretion of the police in New Zealand provided the police consider the person to be of good standing


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

doozie said:


> Hmmmm
> 
> While authorities do not know exactly how many legally or illegally owned firearms are currently in circulation in New Zealand, estimates put the number at about 1.2 million, according to New Zealand Police. This figure equates to about one gun for every three people -- a rate that is considered high when compared with Australia, which has 3.15 million guns, approximately one for every eight people.
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/15/asia/new-zealand-gun-control-intl/index.html


From your link: "New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said Saturday morning that "our gun laws will change" following the mass shooting at two Christchurch mosques that left 49 people dead."

This shooter used white nationalism and white supremacy rhetoric, and claimed to adore the POTUS, if I recall correctly.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> From your link: "New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said Saturday morning that "our gun laws will change" following the mass shooting at two Christchurch mosques that left 49 people dead."
> 
> This shooter used white nationalism and white supremacy rhetoric, and claimed to adore the POTUS, if I recall correctly.


I've read that too, along with live streaming his attack, sick, and so tragic.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> This shooter used white nationalism and white supremacy rhetoric, and claimed to adore the POTUS, *if I recall correctly*.


I'd love to see the source for that claim.
All his guns were purchased legally.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Gun licenses are issued at the discretion of the police in New Zealand provided the police consider the person to be of good standing


So background checks make no difference.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

doozie said:


> Hmmmm
> 
> While authorities do not know exactly how many legally or illegally owned firearms are currently in circulation in New Zealand, estimates put the number at about 1.2 million, according to New Zealand Police. This figure equates to about one gun for every three people -- a rate that is considered high when compared with Australia, which has 3.15 million guns, approximately one for every eight people.
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/15/asia/new-zealand-gun-control-intl/index.html


I wonder what the percentage of wacko terrorists to normal law abiding citizens is?


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I wonder what the percentage of wacko terrorists to normal law abiding citizens is?



Much much muxh muxh muxh muxh lower than the percentage of crooked politicians to legal ones.


I say they meter out the same justice to themselves as it is only fair...……..one nutjob with guns commits a crime and we all must pay the price.

One politician commits a crime, we need the same measure or response they propose on us. After all the numbers show it is a way higher percentage of them breaking the laws. Arguably when they do it, it effects more people than a madman with a gun.


But that would be fair and it effects them, so of course its crazy talk.


There will be change the prime minister said.., in that same time frame multiple officials have commited crimes, yet not one cry of there will be changes to the law has been announced...…...wonder why ?

I guess that's what happens when your subjects and not citizens.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I wonder what the percentage of wacko terrorists to normal law abiding citizens is?


In any given population, about 2% will be sociopaths. Beyond that, I really can't add anything.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

One of my cousins had just dropped her son off at the mosque and driven to a local park when the shooting started..she heard the gunfire and drove past the mosque and saw bodies littering the ground... she and her family have still not had any word on whether her son was among the dead,wounded etc


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> One of my cousins had just dropped her son off at the mosque and driven to a local park when the shooting started..she heard the gunfire and drove past the mosque and saw bodies littering the ground... she and her family have still not had any word on whether her son was among the dead,wounded etc


Hopefully good news will come quickly.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

IndyDave said:


> Hopefully good news will come quickly.


Hopefully so.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

If anyone is interested this is his manifesto.


Kiamichi Kid said:


> One of my cousins had just dropped her son off at the mosque and driven to a local park when the shooting started..she heard the gunfire and drove past the mosque and saw bodies littering the ground... she and her family have still not had any word on whether her son was among the dead,wounded etc


Hoping for the best outcome. Horrible situation.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> This shooter used white nationalism and white supremacy rhetoric, and *claimed to adore the POTUS*, if I recall correctly.


His own words:



> *Were/are you a supporter of Donald Trump?*
> As a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose? Sure. As a policy maker and leader? *Dear god no*.


His "Manifesto":
https://www.blazingcatfur.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Great-Replacement.pdf


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

IndyDave said:


> In any given population, about 2% will be sociopaths. Beyond that, I really can't add anything.


I must have horrible luck in having run into most of that 2% at some point in my life. I feel like that percentage is a lot higher or I'm just really unlucky.



Kiamichi Kid said:


> One of my cousins had just dropped her son off at the mosque and driven to a local park when the shooting started..she heard the gunfire and drove past the mosque and saw bodies littering the ground... she and her family have still not had any word on whether her son was among the dead,wounded etc


That is absolutely horrible, I cannot imagine how scared your cousin must be. I hope this turns out well for them. I'm so sorry.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Mish said:


> I must have horrible luck in having run into most of that 2% at some point in my life. I feel like that percentage is a lot higher or I'm just really unlucky.
> 
> 
> 
> That is absolutely horrible, I cannot imagine how scared your cousin must be. I hope this turns out well for them. I'm so sorry.


In fairness, there are a lot of mean-spirited people and just plain asses who are not sociopaths in the clinical sense. Then again, you may well have been so unfortunate as to meet 19 out of the 20 per thousand who are the genuine article.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

IndyDave said:


> In fairness, there are a lot of mean-spirited people and just plain asses who are not sociopaths in the clinical sense. Then again, you may well have been so unfortunate as to meet 19 out of the 20 per thousand who are the genuine article.


I know I'm closely related to one that's been diagnosed as such lol Wonder if that makes me a genetic magnet?


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Mish said:


> I know I'm closely related to one that's been diagnosed as such lol Wonder if that makes me a genetic magnet?


Hard to say. In my reckoning, this quickly gets into psychological and spiritual issues with the potential to get really deep really quickly.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Kiamichi, have you heard anything ye? A very worrying time for your family.



HDRider said:


> Nearly 250,000 [1] licensed firearms owners own and use New Zealand's estimated 1.5 million [1] firearms.
> 
> Gun licenses are issued at the discretion of the police in New Zealand provided the police consider the person to be of good standing


And that would be the more correct number. The large bulk of New Zealanders do not own firearms. Most are used for hunting, sport, pest control, and most farmers will own a rifle for homekill or humane disposal. For those who hunt or participate in shooting clubs, clay bird shooting etc. many will own more than one shotgun and/or several rifles of different calibres - hence such a lot of firearms distributed amongst a relatively small number of people. Generally speaking, people don't arm themselves for protection - unless they are a gang member!

I've had a firearms license for over 40 years and every time it comes up for renewal the police visit my home, inspect where I keep the one rifle I now own, where the ammo is stored. They want referees as to my character and so it goes on. Getting, and keeping, a firearms license is not a walk in the park. The last time they also wanted to know what plan I had for the rifle when I died as my partner doesn't have a license. I either have to give it to a named license holder or it has to be surrendered to the police. However, it doesn't matter how tight laws of this type are, you (or the police) will never be able to rule out the idiot factor.

That will do for the moment, suffice to say this tragedy has rocked and shocked NZ'ers to the core because it's something that just doesn't happen in this country. Ah well, I guess we joined the rest of the world.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

@Ronney first let me say I am sorry your countrymen have suffered at the hands of a madman. Ours has too, many times over.

I don't want to take advantage of the tragedy, but I must point out to those of us in the US, your strict gun laws failed to stop it.

No law can stop a madman. I want to keep my right to defend myself. It is a key component of what makes my country. It does not come cheap.

Again, my condolences for your national loss and many of us share your sorrow.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

HDRider said:


> I don't want to take advantage of the tragedy, but I must point out to those of us in the US, your strict gun laws failed to stop it.


Duckboat sinks in the Ozarks and takes with it many lives as well as an entire family.
Life preservers, proper escape routes and doors were ignored or compromised.
I dare say to speak of such a tragedy outside of condolences and thoughts and prayers and one might be accused of promoting an agenda by some of those hand wringers, by gawd.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

I can understand the pro-gun folks making a factually valid point and not feeling it unfit especially given that the anti-gun crowd has been shamelessly dancing in innocent blood for decades, but here and now I would encourage everyone to keep in mind that we have a member who is a NZ resident and another who has a loved one directly affected by the incident.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

IndyDave said:


> I can understand the pro-gun folks making a factually valid point and not feeling it unfit especially given that the anti-gun crowd has been shamelessly dancing in innocent blood for decades, but here and now I would encourage everyone to keep in mind that we have a member who is a NZ resident and another who has a loved one directly affected by the incident.


And we feel his pain as much as we can given the situation. 

You yourself just chose to speak out. So did I.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

IndyDave said:


> I would encourage everyone to keep in mind that we have a member who is a NZ resident and another who has a loved one directly affected by the incident.


I would encourage everyone to stop preaching to others and just stick to the facts about the shooting.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Before I make any comments with somebody please clarify if this is the condolences thread or the discussion thread? 
Let me extend my condolences to those families affected. 
I am familiar with the pain of losing a loved one and the drawn out agony of waiting for news of a loved one’s possible demise. It is not something I would wish on anyone but it is sadly the fact of modern life.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

First and only cleanup.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Before I make any comments with somebody please clarify if this is the condolences thread or the discussion thread?


The first 20 posts had little to do with "condolences".


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Ronney said:


> Kiamichi, have you heard anything ye? A very worrying time for your family.
> 
> And that would be the more correct number. The large bulk of New Zealanders do not own firearms. Most are used for hunting, sport, pest control, and most farmers will own a rifle for homekill or humane disposal. For those who hunt or participate in shooting clubs, clay bird shooting etc. many will own more than one shotgun and/or several rifles of different calibres - hence such a lot of firearms distributed amongst a relatively small number of people. Generally speaking, people don't arm themselves for protection - unless they are a gang member!
> 
> ...


I'm sorry that your country was involved in a mass shooting. 

I also hope Kiamichi Kid's family are safe.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

HDRider said:


> @Ronney first let me say I am sorry your countrymen have suffered at the hands of a madman. Ours has too, many times over.
> 
> I don't want to take advantage of the tragedy, but I must point out to those of us in the US, your strict gun laws failed to stop it.
> 
> ...


Whenever someone prefaces a sentence with, 'I don't want to take advantage of the tragedy', they are in effect, doing so. Your suggesting NZ's disaster is prima facie evidence gun regulations don't work. America owns, in every sense of the word, 'mass shootings' of it's citizens. Does it happen in other countries? Of course, but nothing like the scale of carnage in the USA. And you're right, your right to bear arms does not come cheap...



IndyDave said:


> I can understand the pro-gun folks making a factually valid point and not feeling it unfit especially given that the anti-gun crowd has been shamelessly dancing in innocent blood for decades, but here and now I would encourage everyone to keep in mind that we have a member who is a NZ resident and another who has a loved one directly affected by the incident.


One incident does not make valid point (i.e. that gun regulations don't work). They work here. Do we still have gun violence? Yes, we do, but at a rate far less (fraction) than the USA (as do other countries with gun regs). 
Really, has the anti-gun crowd been shamelessly dancing in innocent blood for decades? I assume that is a metaphor, because I've never heard of a gun regulation proponent doing such a thing. And as a metaphor, how exactly has a gun regulation proponent defiled those lives lost in mass shootings? 

I see this as a copy cat incident. The suspect noted other mass shootings, even ones in the USA. A murdering white extremist...a terrorist.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

melli said:


> *Whenever someone prefaces a sentence with, 'I don't want to take advantage of the tragedy*', they are in effect, doing so. Your suggesting NZ's disaster is prima facie evidence gun regulations don't work. America owns, in every sense of the word, 'mass shootings' of it's citizens. Does it happen in other countries? Of course, but nothing like the scale of carnage in the USA. And you're right, your right to bear arms does not come cheap...
> 
> 
> One incident does not make valid point (i.e. that gun regulations don't work). They work here. Do we still have gun violence? Yes, we do, but at a rate far less (fraction) than the USA (as do other countries with gun regs).
> ...


It is another way of saying I wish the tragedy never happened. Twist it however you want. 

I am happy you are happy with your gun laws. I am happy with my 2nd amendment. I don't tread on your rights, and ask you don't tread on mine. You being a non-American, I don't care what you think about our gun laws.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

melli said:


> I see this as a copy cat incident. The suspect noted other mass shootings, even ones in the USA.


Yes, the media is as much to blame as anyone.
Even more so than gun owners who haven't misused their guns.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

HDRider said:


> It is another way of saying I wish the tragedy never happened. Twist it however you want.
> 
> I am happy you are happy with your gun laws. I am happy with my 2nd amendment. I don't tread on your rights, and ask you don't tread on mine. You being a non-American, I don't care what you think about our gun laws.


I thought we were discussing the tragedy in New Zealand? And you had to use it as an opportunity to defend your gun rights in America. 



Bearfootfarm said:


> Yes, the media is as much to blame as anyone.
> Even more so than gun owners who haven't misused their guns.


Ah, maybe we should just stop airing all instances of mass shootings. Be like China.

No doubt air coverage of extremists going on rampages creates a copy-cat effect, but if we start down that road of limiting freedom of speech and the press, I fear that will truly be the end of us (but you'll still have your guns).

One interesting thing I've noted with our socialist press is they have taken to posting suicide and mental health support numbers after disturbing news articles like suicide, and some murders. No idea if it helps, but I find it a positive step in right direction.


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

Ronney said:


> Kiamichi, have you heard anything ye? A very worrying time for your family.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes ,Sadly it has been confirmed that my family member was among those killed in the attack....


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## Kiamichi Kid (Apr 9, 2009)

IndyDave said:


> I can understand the pro-gun folks making a factually valid point and not feeling it unfit especially given that the anti-gun crowd has been shamelessly dancing in innocent blood for decades, but here and now I would encourage everyone to keep in mind that we have a member who is a NZ resident and another who has a loved one directly affected by the incident.


My family member was confirmed among those killed.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> Yes ,Sadly it has been confirmed that my family member was among those killed in the attack....


I am so, so sorry for your family's loss. That's heartbreaking.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> Yes ,Sadly it has been confirmed that my family member was among those killed in the attack....


I’m so sorry for your loss.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

This makes two HT members that have lost family members to mass shootings. Will it never end? ☹


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I wonder what the percentage of wacko terrorists to normal law abiding citizens is?


250,000 licensed gun owners= 1 terrorist attack. So, if there were an equal number of illegal gun owners, there are a half million people with guns and a single attack. So this wasn't a million to one chance, but a million to two chance. Well worthy chance to rip the guns away from the legal gun owners.


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## Tnff319 (May 28, 2012)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> My family member was confirmed among those killed.


Horrible news. So sorry for the loss


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> My family member was confirmed among those killed.


I am sorry to hear this. There are times when words are completely inadequate, and this is one of those times.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> This makes two HT members that have lost family members to mass shootings. Will it never end? ☹


Nope, not as long as wackos are allowed to roam the streets.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

melli said:


> Ah, maybe we should just stop airing all instances of mass shootings. Be like China.


We should stop turning them into celebrities by running the stories 24/7 for days on end.
Just report the news and move on.
Leave out all the emotional spin and political agendas and simply stick to the details of the incidents.



melli said:


> *No doubt air coverage of extremists going on rampages creates a copy-cat effect*, but if we start down that road of limiting freedom of speech and the press, I fear that will truly be the end of us (but you'll still have your guns).


I didn't say anything about limiting their freedom.
I'm saying they should simply report the news without the sensationalism.
They know they are part of the problem.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Kiamichi, this is not the outcome you, your family, myself or the rest of the forum were hoping for. My thoughts are with you all at this time. Take care.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> My family member was confirmed among those killed.


Sorry for your loss....


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Praying the Great Spirit is with you and your family at this time of sorrow.

 Al


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I am so sorry for your lose.


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## whiterock (Mar 26, 2003)

Sorry KK.


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## doozie (May 21, 2005)

I'm sorry for your loss.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I would encourage everyone to stop preaching to others and just stick to the facts about the shooting.


In the second mosque, a good man with a gun shot at the terrorists and saved many lives. Odd that the news doesn't spend time reporting that fact.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Kiamichi Kid, 

I am so very sorry for your loss. My thoughts will be with you and your family during this terrible time.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Summary first hand from Mr Aziz, who chased after the killer (3 sources cited for bias and variations) First hand accounts are known to change and subject to journalists transcription errors:

Sky News
https://news.sky.com...ed-him-11667098

*
quote
Mr Aziz spotted the attacker as he was heading towards his car to get hold of another gun, and as he did so the worshipper hurled the machine at him.

The killer then got his new gun and started shooting at Mr Aziz about four or five times - but he was able to duck between cars.* 

Hitting the killer with a thrown object did not stop the attack or cause the killer to disarm. 

*
Quote
It was at that moment that Mr Aziz picked up a shotgun which had been abandoned by the killer and chased him as the attacker returned to his car for second time to get another weapon.

But the shotgun Mr Aziz had picked up was empty *

So it wasn't wrestled away, it was discarded because it was empty. 

*
quote
He added: "I had the shotgun in my hands. Then I saw he dropped his gun and he ran and I chased him."*


He discarded the 2nd gun (reasons unknown) before Mr Aziz chased him with the empty shotgun. While not a confirmed fact it would be a reasonable assumption the killer dropped the 2nd gun for the same reason he dropped the first gun. From this statement it sounds like the killer was already retreating back to his car unarmed before seeing his empty shotgun wielded at him. 

*
quote
Mr Aziz said he threw the weapon "like an arrow", shattering the car window.

"It bust his window and that way he got shocked."

Mr Aziz said the gunman "swore at me and took off" before he chased the killer down the street.

The attacker then managed to run away when the nearby traffic lights turned red*


The CNN story adds this
http://www.msn.com/e...ives/ar-BBURCOi

*
Quote
When he sees me ... chasing with a gun, he sat in his car," Wahabzadah said. "And I just got the gun and throw it on his window like an arrow and blast his window. And he thought probably I shot him or something and ... he drove off."* 

The... means it's not the full quote, but here it sounds like the shooter did not retreat at the sight of the gun, most likely because he knew it was empty. The Sky and Breitbart account also mentioned the killer didn't leave until the gun was thrown, but had time to curse Mr Aziz out for further damaging his windshield (as there were already bullet holes in it from the killer shooting through it).

https://www.breitbar...man-ran-at-him/

*Quote
He said the gunman was cursing at him, yelling that he was going to kill them all. But he drove away and Aziz said he chased the car down the street to a red light, before it made a U-turn and sped away. Online videos indicate police officers managed to force the car from the road and drag out the suspect soon after.*

So it was more then just a single curse but a tirade even after the gun was thrown at the windshield. It mentions the police apprehended him soon after. Very likely he was retreating because he heard the sirens closing in on him. 

49 dead.
It took the police 35 minutes to arrive on scene.
35 minutes.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

haypoint said:


> In the second mosque, a good man with a gun shot at the terrorists and saved many lives. Odd that the news doesn't spend time reporting that fact.


I went looking for more information about this and found this article:
https://news.sky.com/story/many-mor...mosque-worker-grabs-nz-attackers-gun-11666492

The article seems to indicate that the "good man with a gun" didn't actually fire the weapon. He tried to fire it but it was empty, so he actually threw the gun at the attacker's windshield. Either way, he is credited with stopping the attack.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

It looks as though we were on the same wavelength, GTX63!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

haypoint said:


> Odd that the news doesn't spend time reporting that fact.


How many reports have you seen about these killings?:

https://www.breitbart.com/africa/20...im-militants-kill-120-christians-three-weeks/

"The recent death toll of Christians in Nigeria has reached 120 with this week’s slaughter of more than 50 by Fulani Muslim militants in the Kaduna state of Nigeria, the Christian Post reported.

The Fulani jihadists, who have become a greater threat to Nigerian Christians than the Islamist terror group Boko Haram, stormed the villages of Inkirimi, Dogonnoma, and Ungwan Gora in the Kajuru Local Government Area last Monday, destroying 143 homes, killing 52 people, and wounding dozens more.

The assailants reportedly split into three groups, the first of which fired upon the people, the second set fire to buildings, and the third chased down people fleeing from the scene. Victims of the assault included women and children.

Monday’s incident followed an attack the day before in the Ungwan Barde village in Kajuru, where 17 Christians were killed and dozens of homes were burned.

In the first week of March, Muslim extremists massacred more than 30 Christians in Karamar village, setting fire to several houses and a church. The terrorists reportedly shot at families trying to escape the fire, killing 32.

The spate of recent attacks against communities has taken place within the predominantly Christian Adara chiefdom of southern Kaduna.

The governor of Kaduna state, Nasir El-Rufai, has imposed a dusk-to-dawn curfew on the Kajuru Local Government Area to try to contain the violence.

In late February, militants attacked the Maro village, killing 38 Christians and torching homes as well as a Christian church.

The Christian Post reported that Fulani militants killed thousands of Christians in 2018 alone in what many are calling a Christian genocide in Nigeria’s Middle Belt.
Last December, a leading Anglican bishop in Nigeria, Dr. Benjamin Argak Kwashi, said that the Muslim Fulani militants represent the number one terrorist threat facing Christians in Nigeria."

The media pushes agendas instead of reality.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

The problem with articles like the Breitbart one is that they don't drill down to discuss the actual issue. The issue isn't a Christian versus Muslim issue in Nigeria. This one provides some context:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36139388

"Disagreements over the use of essential resources such as farmland, grazing areas and water between herders and local farmers are said to be the major source of the fighting.

Fulani herders can travel hundreds of miles in large numbers with their cattle in search of pasture. They are often armed with weapons to protect their livestock.

They frequently clash with farmers who consistently accuse them of damaging their crops and failing to control their animals."


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I read the reports of the Muslim factions butchering Christians this morning but I had to look for it. Christians are being murdered without barely a whisper.
Giving coverage to nutjobs with manifestos or agendas breeds copy cats.
Using race and religion as clickbait for more coverage and sensationalism does nothing more than it does to divide and breed more hate.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> Summary first hand from Mr Aziz, who chased after the killer (3 sources cited for bias and variations) First hand accounts are known to change and subject to journalists transcription errors:
> 
> Sky News
> https://news.sky.com...ed-him-11667098
> ...



Thank you for that report. I watched the interview this morning with that man and if I was unaware of this amazing forum I would never know many of the REAL stories behind the fake news media stories.
The media has made a point of portraying the man as unarmed, which is technically true, but the only place I've seen it reported that he was in fact going for his own gun at the time to defend himself and others, was on this site.
Thank you again for keeping it real.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

TheMartianChick said:


> The problem with articles like the Breitbart one is that they don't drill down to discuss the actual issue. /QUOTE]
> 
> There is no patience in reporting the facts related to major news.
> Drilling down isn't a priority in news anymore; it is all a rabbit trail trying to capture whatever tidbit no matter true or not that will encourage the masses to follow them.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

TheMartianChick said:


> The problem with articles like the Breitbart one is that they don't drill down to discuss the actual issue. The issue isn't a Christian versus Muslim issue in Nigeria. This one provides some context:
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36139388
> 
> ...


And that is another example of superficial, bordering on fake news.
You are absolutely correct BTW, this was a much deeper issue. The report this morning spent about 5 seconds on the man flashing a "***********" sign at his arraignment, and nothing else.
This forum is a gold mine of factual information.
Thank you.


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

I agree that the 24/7 news media coverage is a big part of the problem here. These nut jobs know they are going to be on the news, so they use their crazy acts to promote their crazy agenda. Then the media jumps right on the band wagon and runs with it.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Focusing on *********** will light up the boards and gather the lemmings but it won't do much more.
The NZ prime minister has already determined what needs to be done and it is falling right into the intent of this nutjob.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

TheMartianChick said:


> The problem with articles like the Breitbart one is that *they don't drill down to discuss the actual issue*. The issue isn't a Christian versus Muslim issue in Nigeria.


They are simply reporting the facts.
They aren't analyzing the data and offering opinions. 
The main stream media has largely ignored the stories, so the end result is the same.

It doesn't further their agendas, so it becomes backpage news, if reported at all.

They can't say "white supremacist" and attempt to connect it to Trump or "assault weapons", so they ignore it.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> The media has made a point of portraying the man as unarmed, which is technically true, but the only place I've seen it reported that *he was in fact going for his own gun* at the time to defend himself and others, was on this site.


Except it wasn't "his own gun".
It was an empty shotgun dropped by the assailant.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Mr Aziz had no gun. Handguns are largely for sporting purpose only. The shooter either dropped lost a bunch of ammo in the first mosque and dropped the shotgun.
Mr. Aziz had no idea how to use the shotgun even if it were loaded.
Classifying firearms for sporting purposes is a method to prohibit firearms designed and meant for self defense.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

TheMartianChick said:


> The problem with articles like the Breitbart one is that they don't drill down to discuss the actual issue.


That is always a tough call. In most things you can "drill down" and come up with a different viewpoint. One might say" Whites stole Indian's land", but if you "drill down" you learn that Indians lost battles, the way that most of planet earth is divided up. You'd learn that they were paid for land or otherwise signed binding agreements in exchange for land. We universally hate Hitler and wonder why the Germans were so willing to kill Jews. But when we "drill down" we see that the Jews did not consider themselves Germans, but had legally taken control of the Banks and many industries, undermining the patriotic Germans. Efforts to run the Jews out of Germany were stymied when no other countries would accept them. I have no idea if the Muslims in NZ were causing any concerns, pushing Sharia Law in an ever widening community.

Evil exists. But often it does not exist in a vacuum. It is the victor that writes the history.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

The shooter used 5 different guns.
Two were shotguns and one was a lever action rifle.
Only two of them were semi-automatic rifles, but that's what they want to ban.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/03/16/new-zealand-government-semiautomatic-rifle-ban/

*"New Zealand’s government is responding to the Christchurch attacks by pledging to ban all semiautomatic rifles.*
Newstalk ZB reports that Attorney General David Parker announced the pending ban on semiautomatic rifles during a vigil in Auckland. He couched the announcement in comments about “a dimming of enlightenment” in various places around the world.

The _Guardian_ reports that *Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern also plans to “focus on the ease with which legal weapons can be modified to become military-style assault rifles, which are more strictly controlled*.” "

See how they worked in some fake news to push the agenda?


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Always has been crazy people and always will be crazy people,....no law or restriction will ever stop that.


Once again I agree it is the medias fault for whipping these people up into a frenzy...…...I see it all the time where multiple news articles shape reality for many, when in fact the problem is minor to the same as it always has been.


It was stated the muslims/mosques had been there for 150 years,...…..


The media is just part of spinning the web, the global push to eliminate guns goes much deeper...…….thru history they always want to disarm the subjects before the inevitable happens.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

Always has been crazy people and always will be crazy people,....no law or restriction will ever stop that.


Once again I agree it is the medias fault for whipping these people up into a frenzy...…...I see it all the time where multiple news articles shape reality for many, when in fact the problem is minor to the same as it always has been.


It was stated the muslims/mosques had been there for 150 years,...…..


The media is just part of spinning the web, the global push to eliminate guns goes much deeper...…….thru history they always want to disarm the subjects before the inevitable happens.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> Mr Aziz had no gun. Handguns are largely for sporting purpose only. The shooter either dropped lost a bunch of ammo in the first mosque and dropped the shotgun.
> Mr. Aziz had no idea how to use the shotgun even if it were loaded.
> Classifying firearms for sporting purposes is a method to prohibit firearms designed and meant for self defense.


You might want to get to know the man before you talk about him...........

https://www.euronews.com/2019/03/16...hristchurch-hero-who-chased-the-attacker-away


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

The man is braver that most anyone can ever imagine being in such a situation.
My statements are based on reports of the timeline.
The shooter deserved no more recognition than a number.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> You might want to get to know the man before you talk about him..........


One earlier report said he "picked up the gun but couldn't find the trigger".
It's hard to know what to believe when so many make false statements all the time.


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## IndyDave (Jul 17, 2017)

It stands out to me that he doesn't like to be called a hero. Of course, those who truly are tend to consider their actions the proper and reasonable thing to do and not anything magnanimous on their part. In other words it is just the normal thing to do in such a person's reckoning rather than anything outstanding. Ironically, that mindset is the ethos of a true hero.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> The man is braver that most anyone can ever imagine being in such a situation.
> My statements are based on reports of the timeline.
> The shooter deserved no more recognition than a number.


Well, I was responding to your assumption he had know idea what to do with a firearm if he had one.
The article disputes that and having grown up in Afghanistan makes those odds even slimmer.


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## wannabfarmer (Jun 30, 2015)

Its such a tragedy when things like this happen. I always wonder what brought them to this point in their life. My thoughts go out to everyone involved and I hope for the best for them. I've been busy with work and just found out about this today. I don't have much to add, i'm just shocked.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

farmrbrown said:


> Well, I was responding to your assumption he had know idea what to do with a firearm if he had one.
> The article disputes that and having grown up in Afghanistan makes those odds even slimmer.


He may be familiar. It just doesn't say that.
My sister has been in Afghanistan numerous times over the years and can recall being able to ride a bus across the desert without fear and with hospitable locals (yes, that long ago), and has told me that while guns outnumber the populace about a dozen to one, not everyone carries, uses or even owns one. She was familiar with quite a few people who for several reasons just didn't.
South Chicago would be considered a war zone in many countries and yet plenty of folks there also live unarmed.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Kiamichi Kid said:


> Yes ,Sadly it has been confirmed that my family member was among those killed in the attack....


I am truly disheartened to hear that.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> Thank you for that report. I watched the interview this morning with that man and if I was unaware of this amazing forum I would never know many of the REAL stories behind the fake news media stories.
> The media has made a point of portraying the man as unarmed, which is technically true, but the only place I've seen it reported that he was in fact going for his own gun at the time to defend himself and others, was on this site.
> Thank you again for keeping it real.






Bearfootfarm said:


> Except it wasn't "his own gun".
> It was an empty shotgun dropped by the assailant.


You're correct, I read the sentence below in a different way this morning, mistaking which man the "he" was referring to.
My apologies, sometimes I'm wrong about things, such as my post above.



*Mr Aziz spotted the attacker as*  *he was heading towards his car to get hold of another gun,* * and as he did so the worshipper hurled the machine at him.*


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> He may be familiar. It just doesn't say that.
> My sister has been in Afghanistan numerous times over the years and can recall being able to ride a bus across the desert without fear and with hospitable locals (yes, that long ago), and has told me that while guns outnumber the populace about a dozen to one, not everyone carries, uses or even owns one. She was familiar with quite a few people who for several reasons just didn't.
> South Chicago would be considered a war zone in many countries and yet plenty of folks there also live unarmed.


I was basing it on this line from the article......


> But the shotgun Mr Aziz had picked up was empty and so when the gunman got back in his car, Mr Aziz said he threw the weapon "like an arrow", shattering the car window.


How would someone unfamiliar with firearms, know it was "empty"?
And while it's true that growing up in a country that's been at war with many invaders over the centuries doesn't necessarily mean he knows about weapons, but it's likely.
I don't own a firearm either, but know how to use one.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

farmrbrown said:


> I was basing it on this line from the article......
> 
> 
> How would someone unfamiliar with firearms, know it was "empty"?
> ...


Look in the firing cylinder or pull the trigger


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## siberian (Aug 23, 2011)

alleyyooper said:


> Do I remember correctly that New Zeeland made the citizens turn in their guns?
> 
> Guess that goes to show the bumper stickers are right.
> 
> ...


No, not at all


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## siberian (Aug 23, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> His own words:
> 
> 
> Have heard folks here that know all 613 commandments of the Torrah (hope I have the number right), Mao tse , bruce lee, …. Bible, and a 100 others that have been taken out of context


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## siberian (Aug 23, 2011)

Sorry, this was in reply to bearfootfarm


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

Fishindude said:


> I agree that the 24/7 news media coverage is a big part of the problem here. These nut jobs know they are going to be on the news, so they use their crazy acts to promote their crazy agenda. Then the media jumps right on the band wagon and runs with it.


You got that right. 
Interestingly, USA is getting blamed for this tragedy. It is coming home to roost, as it were.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

101pigs said:


> Look in the firing cylinder or pull the trigger


Most shotguns don't have "firing cylinders".
The ones used in this incident certainly didn't.


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

melli said:


> You got that right.
> Interestingly, USA is getting blamed for this tragedy. It is coming home to roost, as it were.



The media has the lions share of the blame, they have been pumpin out muslim phopbia since Obama got elected.


Gun phobia and fueling everything in between...…….


While no tragic loss of life like this is ever good, over 500 people die each year in the US from getting out of bed, far more than mass shootings world wide. But that does not sell papers, nor do the drunk driving fatalities or bicycle fatalities or pedestrians killed each year.


But with the power of the media they can turn a mole hill into a mountain,...…...luckily, I take every thing the media pumps out as propaganda, so in checking, it was easy to see the muslim thing of being threat was no more than it was 100 years ago and no more than 10 tears ago. 


Unfortunately the news/media shapes most peoples reality......now its the brown threat from down south,...….just as biased as those people are, the same holds true for those who believe there is no problem.


The media fuels things up way beyond reality...…...it was the starving kids in eithiopia 30 years ago...…...they were starving before that and they are still starving, famine is not new. 


I feel blessed to have turned the media off 35 years ago, no good ever comes from it, wasted time about subjects no one will ever care what I think that is going to change anything. Might as well talk about the weather on mars...wasted time, wasted thoughts. Sure debating the nature of the universe is fun, but is really wasted time as no results come from it.

I have never purchased a paper and had no network television service, nor do I watch it at other peoples house and I still can not get away from it, it is rooted deep in people like addiction. 


I was watching a show and they had the Indian chief on and they asked what he was going to do, he said, the young ones are scare of every thing now. GMO, sugar, muslims,mexicans,guns,airplanes,cars,meat,medicine, etc etc etc, the young ones are scared of every thing. 

Like a child scared of the boogie man, the media has played on that and not only fueled it, said there are many boogy men under the bed, instead of being like a parent and turning the light on and showing them there is nothing under the bed or in the closet.

The media fueled people in to throwing pork at them in places here, which no one would have ever knew or thought of since they have no understanding of them, if the media would have said it was gold and against their religion, then the fools would have thrown gold, beef or pixie dust, whatever the media fueled them in to doing thru fear.


I have said it many times, the media is dangerously powerful and is a massive propaganda tool to goad the masses into perceptions or reality...…...its the stupid fools fault that did the horrific act, but it was no small part the media plays in it...….had it not been for that, he would have probably never heard of muslims.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

At some point, government leaders will learn that forced integration always creates violence.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I noticed that the prime minister’s first thought was to announce that gun laws need to be changed.

Obviously that’s correct!
I look forward to seeing programs in New Zealand to help the average New Zealander process better weapons and be better trained .
Obviously that must be what she meant because after looking at what one untrained New Zealander did with an empty gun I am prepared to be amazed at what well trained New Zealanders do when well armed !


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yes, the PM does with the intent of more gun laws. The NZ prime minister is falling right into the intent of this pos's manifesto.
Hopefully the shooter is prohibited from getting media reports behind bars.
Note that most law enforcement in NZ is not armed. I suspect it may come out that the horrible response time was partly caused by the police needing to access an armory or call in a special armed division.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Most shotguns don't have "firing cylinders".
> The ones used in this incident certainly didn't.





Bearfootfarm said:


> Most shotguns don't have "firing cylinders".
> The ones used in this incident certainly didn't.


Chamber


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

MoonRiver said:


> At some point, government leaders will learn that forced integration always creates violence.


I don't think was a case of forced integration. The terrorist who was from another country went hunting for his targets in another country. 
The Mosques were there before he arrived. 
I'm a strong believer in integration, not just racial, but in all aspects. We demonize those who are different than us, yet, they are not different. I find myself lucky to live in a country with a plethora of racial and ethnic backgrounds. From a biological standpoint, makes for a healthy gene pool, and from a cultural one, lots of ethnic restaurants...lol


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

melli said:


> I don't think was a case of forced integration. The terrorist who was from another country went hunting for his targets in another country.
> The Mosques were there before he arrived.
> I'm a strong believer in integration, not just racial, but in all aspects. We demonize those who are different than us, yet, they are not different. I find myself lucky to live in a country with a plethora of racial and ethnic backgrounds. From a biological standpoint, makes for a healthy gene pool, and from a cultural one, lots of ethnic restaurants...lol


Absolutely. The scumbag was Australian, the mosques were in New Zealand. And the hero of the day was muslim. 

I also agree on the diverse food.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Perhaps NZ should ban Australians?


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

I have to correct something here - the response time was not 35 minutes. It took 36 minutes from notification to arrest and that is quite a different thing. 

No, our police are not armed but every city has an Armed Offenders Squad and they would have been first off the rank in this situation, not Mr Plod the Policeman.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

melli said:


> I don't think was a case of forced integration. The terrorist who was from another country went hunting for his targets in another country.
> The Mosques were there before he arrived.
> I'm a strong believer in integration, not just racial, but in all aspects. We demonize those who are different than us, yet, they are not different. I find myself lucky to live in a country with a plethora of racial and ethnic backgrounds. From a biological standpoint, makes for a healthy gene pool, and from a cultural one, lots of ethnic restaurants...lol


Name a single case where integration of different ethnic groups happened without violence!


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## reneedarley (Jun 11, 2014)

Singapore is pretty peaceful. Mind you, they still use the cat of nine tails.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

I dont see the big deal on race or whatever. You will find plenty of horse's petootie types with a rainbow of skin colors and religious beliefs. Also find some really nice people with virtual halos, and whole lot somewhere in between. No race or religion I have experienced had a monopoly on being petootie nor angelic.


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Any religion which requires that you were different and stand out brings problems with it just as the Amish you are about as peaceful as it gets.


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## kinnb (Oct 23, 2011)

@Kiamichi Kid truly sorry for your loss...


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