# First time considerations for a livestock protector



## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

Help me think about choosing a livestock protector. We've never had a protector animal so I'm starting the learning curve. Here's what I'm thinking is important:
Protection for: chickens, 2-5 goats, eventually 2-5 sheep/lambs & ducks
Protection from: raccoon, possum, fox, neighborhood dogs & possible coyote
Our animals are in the fenced pastures during the day (<5 acres) and secured in the barn/chicken tractor at night. The pastures are fenced into larger & smaller pasture/pens and is primarily flat land. 
Our weather is <100 degrees/humid Summers and >-15 degrees cold/wet/snowy winters - not horribly extreme but both cold and hot occurs.
DH is on the property most days and we are typically home evenings & weekends, so we can generally but not always respond to a warning sound. We have a baby monitor in the barn now for night noise alerts.
We have neighbors on both sides of the house end of the property, but farm land on 3 sides of the pasture/barn land.

Looking for an animal that will be aware of and accepting if we have visitors on the property. We have a number of folks from church, home schoolers etc. that bring kids to see the animals. We also have our toddler granddaughter visiting so we can't have aggressive threatening every time we have company. 

A protector that is happy to check in with us when we're out and about, but happy to stay with his/her flock/herd and take action/sound if a predator threatens.

Those are my initial thoughts. Ideas?

ps: (Moved as I posted in the wrong forum initially :smack


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## motdaugrnds (Jul 3, 2002)

You might enjoy checking out the thread I started about my first LGD. You can find it at http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/li...3238-made-my-choice-bulgarian-karakachan.html 

I live on 6 acres with one close neighbor. My entire farm has a parameter fence around it and not once has my Karakachan tried to climb over or go over it. She gives a combination of bark/growl/howl whenever she senses something is near our place and I've seen her charge toward what looked like a fox, sending it fleeing for its life. Other than that, she is rather quiet! She was permitted to bond with the goats (a small herd of Nubians) and was taught to leave the fowl alone (guineas, geese, chickens). She was "walked" around the parameter twice a day for the first few weeks of being on our place and now I often see her doing this by herself. (She does have another dog to play with, i.e. a 5 yr old neutered labradore; and she loves to play-fight with him.) I trained her to accept the leash, ride in the van to/from vet & wait with patience...for whatever I'm giving these two dogs. (She never takes food away from the lab, Cujo; and he never takes food away from her. However, if one leaves their food, the other will finish it gladly.) I am quite pleased with Valentina, though she does still require assertiveness on my part at times...She is in the adolescents stage!

There are, of course, many other LGD breeds. However, my search a couple of years ago told me many breeds need more land than what I have, barked more than what I wanted and were escape artists should they get bored. I almost went with a Sarplaniac (mispelled) and nearly went with an Akbash but decided on the Karakachan; and I have not been disappointed. (The lengthy thread I started about my experiences with this breed will provide some information you might find useful.)

Whatever breed you decide on, please know an LGD is best taken away from its mother at 12 weeks (not 8 weeks) of age because it has then had time to be trained to be an LGD by its mother. This is a real advantage!


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I was just going to suggest you read motdaugrnds&#8217; thread and consider a karakachan. She is also right in steering you to an older puppy rather than a younger puppy. They need time with their mothers and litter mates. They also need to be exposed to the livestock they will be guarding. So, your best bet would be from a home that has chickens, sheep, and goats (for any LGD). Since you do not have sheep yet, a home with sheep is important.

Be informed, though, that most dogs will protect their territory, even if it is only with barking. So, while a Dobermann may not specifically protect goats, it will protect the farm. You may be suited to a &#8216;family&#8217; dog known for protecting its territory rather than an LGD. A golden retriever would be too soft, but a terrier will be fierce.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

The accepting of strangers one may be a sticking point. Even our cuddley Bernese Mt dog (a great family farm dog and homestead watch) is extremely leery of strangers, wont let them touch him and barks at them.
How accepting do you want the dog to be. Our great pyreenes- akbash seems better and more discerning (during the day time and with introduced people)....


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

CAjerseychick - good question. I am fine with a protector that will 'sound' if there are visitors but then accept and return to watchfulness. Not a problem if they don't want to be petted but I would not want hours of non-stop barking just because my family is visiting for a bbq and the kids are playing. Importantly, I don't want to lose any more chickens to foxes, or (and this hasn't happened) have neighborhood dogs able to freely threaten the goats. 

By the way, it doesn't HAVE to be a dog, but I realize that is the most common. I am trying to be open minded as I begin the consideration. 

Appreciate all the input.


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## redgate (Sep 18, 2008)

We have had donkeys, and our friends have had llamas. Now we have dogs, and they are the way to go! We love our dogs, and live in a similar climate to yours (central IL). As far as the barking/aggressiveness, part of it has to do with breed, part with individual temperament, and most of it has to do with early socializing and some limited training (like to stop barking when you tell it to). Our dogs bark, but we give farm tours, and within a few minutes, the dogs are always begging for petting from the visitors. We have Colorado Mountain Dogs (hope to have a litter of pups soon!), which are primarily Great Pyrenees, but with just enough Anatolian Shepherd thrown in to reduce the thick undercoat, and make them more devoted to the livestock. We love our girls, and no predator ever dares enter our pen. In the last 3 years, we have only lost 2 chickens INSIDE the pasture, and we believe it was a random hawk that managed to nab them in the middle of the day, while the dogs were asleep in the barn. Hope that helps!


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Yes I have to say I like the dog as guardian (a donkey/ or llama wont protect you from strangers for ex).
Berner wouldnt be too bad our boy quiets as soon as he is ignored or no strange behaviors from the guests, but yeah I guess we do have similar to Co mt dogs (pyr- anatolian cross) but the berner is more people oriented, just a love to his people....


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## WildIdeas (Dec 28, 2012)

May I ask if any of you have inside dogs and outside dogs? I just moved to a homestead in Virginia, about twenty acres, but maybe half of that is fenced. I moved from the city to my in-laws land and brought with me a one year old German Shepherd who I brought up doing detection and search work and he is very highly socialized and well trained; he does not bark, even an alert as a result of living in the city and very social with other animals as well. Of course, he is still immature but he does serve me in another form of work and not expected to be a farm dog.

My mother in law would like us to have a dog who will do property patrol 24/7 especially since we will be having livestock soon. I'm not sure how this works. Do any of you have exclusive indoor dogs and exclusively outdoor dogs? I have been a dog trainer for many years but exclusively in the big city and this is a new way of thinking and a new lifestyle for me. If you do have dogs who serve you in various different ways, please share your experiences.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

WildIdeas said:


> May I ask if any of you have inside dogs and outside dogs? I just moved to a homestead in Virginia, about twenty acres, but maybe half of that is fenced. I moved from the city to my in-laws land and brought with me a one year old German Shepherd who I brought up doing detection and search work and he is very highly socialized and well trained; he does not bark, even an alert as a result of living in the city and very social with other animals as well. Of course, he is still immature but he does serve me in another form of work and not expected to be a farm dog.
> 
> My mother in law would like us to have a dog who will do property patrol 24/7 especially since we will be having livestock soon. I'm not sure how this works. Do any of you have exclusive indoor dogs and exclusively outdoor dogs? I have been a dog trainer for many years but exclusively in the big city and this is a new way of thinking and a new lifestyle for me. If you do have dogs who serve you in various different ways, please share your experiences.


Sure- we brought a giant schnauzer who was raised in a 3rd floor condo in the city, no yard for the first 2 years of her life... DH cant handle the amount of dirt the dogs get into here in the country (he is semi retired and stays home with our child, I still commute into town with her a couple days a week for work)... so she has a dog bed in the back kitchen with a dog door or like now its hot summer, so its out on the back porch ramp- she tends to hover near where she can see us (very people oriented, loves to bark though)...

And we got a great pyr-anatolian pup to do more patrolling as we have goats, hens, ducks, and cats... as we have the child, he was brought to puppy school and socialized with us (we only have the 2 acres) but its really interesting, at night he turns On and sleeps out in the field keeping watch and instinctively does his job. His parents were exclusively field LGDs and he was born amongst goats but he is a fine family farm dog and good livestock watch.

We also have a Bernese mt dog who was 6 months old when we moved, he is sort of inbetween (in summer he lives- by choice, not locked in, he goes down there- in our cool basement off the garage its stays a nice 70 degrees all on its own summer or winter very nice) this works for the poultry as the poultry yard is right behind the garage and we learned to pen up our ducks there, and turned on a night light and he watches over them (listens for disturbances) from his dog bed down there at night- its stemmed our losses from foxes a few weeks back....

You might be surprised, I think your GSD, especially if you get a good (female I would think) LGD, that he learns to bark and his instincts should kick in fine...
Our schnauzer has things she def appreciates about her country time, but whenever I load up to get back to town she is the first one there she loves her indoor (people centric) time too...


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## KrisD (May 26, 2011)

I am now on my second Anatolian. I love them! Best dog ever! They need to be well socialized (as does any dog) and trained. Mira who is 4 months old has the best recall of any dog we've ever had including my obedience champ! She also does a great sit stay! Yes, she barks at strangers and growls, but once I tell her "ok Mira I see them" she's fine and stops barking. Our old Anatolian was the same way. Protective but trusted me t make good decisions. A friend of mine has 4 Anatolians and it's the same thing. They bark, she tells them it's fine and they are fine. 
The problem is because people don't socialize them at all. They get the dog, stick it out in a pen and that's it. That is a recipe for disaster. These dogs are natural born guardians. They will do it regardless all you have to do is teach manners, socialize them and teach basic commands.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Thread hijack: your GSD is used to city noises. In the country, she may alert to noises because they are different. When her maturity kicks in I think you will see more guarding. Right now, she is your baby, soon she will feel more territorial.

As far as inside only dog, indoor/outdoor dog, inside only dog, it is all about what you need. If you are worried about your own personal protection, then you want an indoor/outdoor dog, possibly an indoor only dog. However, a large indoor only dog can be difficult. You have to think about exercise requirements. A dog bred to be a companion should not be an outdoor only dog.


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## WildIdeas (Dec 28, 2012)

Wow, thank you for your replies!!

My GSD is with me always whether I am indoors, in town running errands, or outside working. Answering to Maura mostly here. Your last sentence "A dog bred to be a companion should not be an outdoor only dog." - what is your recommendation, in this case?


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

well not Maura but with an extremely velcro schnauzer over here. Its a trade off- when we are home she get acreage and 2 big boys wrestle with critters and freedom. She romps about and then, though she starts missing me. goes in through the dog door to the back kitchen and sits there with her face pressed up against the glass door there to try to catch a glimpse of me. SOrta heartbreaking (the other dogs snooze in our cool basement off the garage when they are not "on")...At night for a treat (every other night) I sneak her in on a dog bed to sleep next to my bed- she has spay incontinenece so that complicates things too....
I also make an effort to take everyone on walks at least 3 times a week- socialization for the boys (and leash walking skills) and stimulation for the schnauzer....
we do 45 mins along the irrigation trail (county water) and every jumps in and swims when they get hot (I have long lines on them)... its fun...


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

I would not try to turn your velcro dog into an outside only dog. Appreciate her for what she is. She should be able to be outside for an hour or more, though. If she has something to do outside she is more likely to want to be outside for longer periods. For my border collie, it was herding ducks on the pond.


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## WildIdeas (Dec 28, 2012)

Maura said:


> I would not try to turn your velcro dog into an outside only dog. Appreciate her for what she is. She should be able to be outside for an hour or more, though. If she has something to do outside she is more likely to want to be outside for longer periods. For my border collie, it was herding ducks on the pond.


I did not allude to turning my dog into an outside only dog. Not sure where you got that idea, but I did not approach that. I asked about adding another dog. Maybe you were referring to someone else.


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

It appears my thread is moving in a different direction from my original question. Likely this is an important discussion to continue, but perhaps it could be done in a separate thread? Not trying to be negative, but I am watching for updates to the original question I raised.


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

one thought I did have -- 5 acres, right? then a dog wouldnt necessarily stay with the flock/ herd but could watch over from a vantage point. Thats what our pyr-anatolian cross does. And he has a loud bark but once the visitor is allowed in the gates he settles down and is curious wants to sniff and meet them.
Having a homestead guard in this manner widens the kinds of dogs that would work out for you I think - anything that barks at critters reduces your predator losses...


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

We will be 'interviewing' this 10 mo old Pyr tomorrow, on her home site so we can see her in action. http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/grd/4629277065.html


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

mzgarden said:


> We will be 'interviewing' this 10 mo old Pyr tomorrow, on her home site so we can see her in action. http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/grd/4629277065.html


Looks promising for sure, pretrained and all- I would think you would leash her and give her a good perimeter walk in the AMs to set in her mind the boundaries of her new territory-
and please! give her a good brushing out!!


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## CAjerseychick (Aug 11, 2013)

Also one thing to think about- since ours is more of a homestead guardian vs a true stays with the livestock- guard- we have cattle panels on one side (so poultry can come and go at ease into the goat pasture)- the pasture is a backwards L shape with the house and yard tucked in the square into the L, there is an internal cattle gate thats up about 6 inches- and the LGD comes and goes (when he alerts ) by squeezing underneath this- that way he is able to patrol the pasture and our yard/ house area as well (the coops and rabbit hutches are built up along the house, under the back porch area)...


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

Thank you all. We brought home the 10 month old female in the ad posted above. She was raised by an older male Pyr with chickens, cattle/calves and sheep/lambs. She went straight to the vet for her shots (previous owners did not vaccinate) and heart worm/flea meds. She is home and we are starting the 'fitting in' process. She has walked the perimeter with us twice and has explored a bit of open pasture off-leash. She is trying to chase the chickens but appears to recognize No and Leave it. She is not alone with any animals of course, only when we are by her side. She barks a bit at the goats from the outside of their pen, so that will be the next introduction. She knows which barn stall is hers and wants to return to it frequently - I think she's just checking to make sure her food and water are still there.

thank you all for your help and perspective. We have much to learn, so I'm sure you'll see us checking back in.


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## anita_fc (May 24, 2008)

Chiming in late here... we have both indoor-only and outdoor-only dogs. Sounds like you might have gotten a good one if she's been raised with stock, but she is still young enough that she will require the normal supervision and training for quite awhile yet. Sounds like you are off to a great start. Congratulations on your new addition.

Our indoor dogs are GSD, Beauceron, two Shelties and one retired Great Pyrenees. Our field dogs are both Akbash, and they are tolerant of the house dogs when we are present. We switched to Akbash from Pyrs due to easier coat care. We have just under 2 acres.


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