# Improving Fleeces- Handspinner's Perspective



## lexierowsell (Dec 10, 2013)

I have a few very nice fleeces-on-the-hoof, and I was wondering what you "real" spinners (as opposed to me, just starting out...) would IDEALLY see in a fleece of a give sort.

My sheep are all pasture sheep. This means they have a little vm, but no hay/feed/bedding. I would be willing to coat a few, but the hassle of it would have to be worth it (either for sale price or true improvement of the fleece for personal use). Also, any experience with coating sheep in a hot climate-- Central Texas?

Staple length (rambouillet, EF/BFL), raw or cleaned (not sure I'll offer any further processing yet), if you buy raw fleece by the oz or 4oz- what parts of the fleece do you expect to get (shoulder, flank, rib etc)?

How important to you is the process and the care taken of the animals? I am an organic farm, I do everything myself, everything is done with respect and dignity. Scour and all processing materials are organic. 

Just thinking about the future, :-D


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## Wind in Her Hair (Jul 18, 2002)

I think you find that it all depends on the hand spinner. I know picky hand spinners that never buy anything but a coated fleece - but they PAY for it in $$$ terms. 

Other folks are willing to put forth a little more effort to save a little $$$. 

Others will work with anything that is free. :shrug:

I have done all of the above. 

Natalie Redding of Namaste Farms lives in southern California where it gets into the 100ÂºF temps and she coats some of her fleeces. She is a meticulous hand spinner breeder and often catches her sheep and "blows their fleeces out" with a Force livestock hair dryer routinely to keep the VM to a minimum. She has a reputation for producing amazingly clean and impressive, sound, quality fleeces and her prices are top shelf. 

I am not all that concerned about the organic aspect of sheep-rearing, only because I never really think about it.  

What impact would "organic" have on fleece production? I mean, I am aware of the environmental impact of raising livestock as organically as possible, just not sure how that might affect the fiber itself? 

Normally, I buy the whole fleece (and I buy some at fiber festival fleece show competition/silent auctions after the fleeces have been judged.) So I am ever concerned with what "part" of a fleece I am buying. :shrug:

I have purchased "washed" fleeces and never questioned WHAT they were washed with.

Because of the close connection you have to your sheep and the organic aspect of their care, you might be better served to market your fiber on etsy.com - some producers sell "virtual ownership" of the animal all year long and provide the "owner virtual" with pictures of the shearing process, pictures of the sheep grazing or videos of them cavorting, pictures of lambs, etc and then come shearing time, the fleece (or a portion of it) goes tot he "virtual owner". Sounds cuckoo to most of us, but I have a spinning friend in an apartment that did it and she loved it. Kind of like a CSA - but for sheep fleece.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/182216822/adopt-a-ram-get-the-fleece-one-year?ref=sc_1&plkey=df3025fa772c69b651630fd069f1a77defbe8654%3A182216822&ga_search_query=adopt+a+fleece&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery

Here is a blurb from the ad:Adopt this ram and have me do all the work! This offer is for the wool and not the sheep. He's one of our "Michigan Mash-ups" at Videnovich Farms - which means that he's a mixed-breed. His wool may be a bit coarse which makes it great for weaving or knitting socks, mittens, and outerwear. 

At $12.50/month this annual adoption fee entitles you to:
1) The fleece when it's shorn in the spring and will result in 4-5 pounds of raw wool. I shear by hand with spring-action hand clippers and will try to keep it in one piece and free of second cuts. If you want your wool cleaned, carded, and spun into yarn I can make arrangements at a local mill but the buyer will be responsible for the additional fee and shipping (the whole machine process starts at $21/pound). 
2) 6 photo cards of your ram. 
3) Monthly e-mail updates on your ram and the rest of the flock.
4) The satisfaction of knowing your supporting small farms! 

Ask Gone-a-milkin, some us really love having the animal connection to what we are spinning, knowing the ANIMAL the fleece came from adds to the experience. Having an actual picture of the fleece-producing animal makes it more special. :grin: ​


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

I think to the right market an organic fleece would be a valuable thing to have. Have you checked on Ravelry using an organic tag and search out groups that are exclusively organic? Pick their brains. I know lots of people that search out all organic things or buy only organic. 

If your sheep are exclusively pastured and you don't have a problem with burrs or other prickers/stickers getting into the wool then you have no reason the coat your sheep.


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## Wind in Her Hair (Jul 18, 2002)

I heard someone say "sheep are such messy eaters - they are just like toddlers. They seem to enjoy WEARING their meals as much as they enjoy eating them."


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

My biggest things when buying a fleece is minimum VM and extreme skirting. I do not want any of the wool except for in the 'saddle' area. I do not want to pay for leg, britchen, belly, head or high neck wool.


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## lexierowsell (Dec 10, 2013)

I went out to snap some pics and got mugged (my pockets may or may not have been flush with treats). 

The wool on the saddle prime area is what I'm most worried about--for despite their 24' x 14' shed they prefer grazing in the rain, and their back look like this:






















And so I'm considering coats. Also, there is grass and such, easy vm compared to what I've dealt with in fleeces off sheep I've brought in (cactus chunks :-O ).




Diverse organic, grass-based farm in Georgetown, Tx. 

Offering Rambouillet sheep(meat and fiber), East Friesian x Blue Faced Leicester sheep(DAIRY, meat, and fiber), small stature purebred Jersey cattle and ADGA Alpine and Nubian dairy goats. 

Also 5+ acres in vegetables, CSA.


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## Wind in Her Hair (Jul 18, 2002)

those backs look amazingly clean to me. 

Just so you know, jacketing is ripe with "issues" and challenges- hanging up on fences, etc. and I have been told that horned sheep don't do well with it, and you do have to constantly change out jackets as the fleece grows out - lest it get too compacted and cott (matted and felted).


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Absolutely nothing wrong with those backs at all that I can see from your photos. They look great!


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## Kasota (Nov 25, 2013)

Those backs look perfectly fine to me. 

I am a newbie at choosing and processing fleece but I have learned I have opinions on a few things. 

Life is too short to fuss with a fleece that is full of burrs and is high in vm or full of second cuts. I'm not talking about one or two burrs, or a little vm (they are animals after all)- but honestly the time it takes to process a fleece is significant and I really don't want to mess with high vm. 

I agree with Cyndi. I want the best parts of the fleece and not all the other stuff that comes along with a very lightly skirted fleece, let alone one that was not skirted at all. 

I honestly don't care if something is certified organic. I do care that animals are raised humanely and given the care they need. There are a lot of people who don't qualify legally to be certified organic and yet they raise things as naturally as possible with as little exposure to chemicals or gmo as possible and I would have no problem purchasing from them. I don't care if washed fleece is done with an organic product or not although I wouldn't necessarily want it done in that chemical that dissolves all the vm because I think it makes it harsh. Guess organic is just not a huge deal to me. Probably because I am personally so loaded with preservatives that I will never die. I am from the Twinkie Generation. hahaha 

I have never bought raw fleece by the ounce. I have purchased a fleece or a 1/2 fleece, but never by the ounce.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

those backs look Great!!


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## lexierowsell (Dec 10, 2013)

Yay! Thanks guys! I'm too fussy I think. 

Please forgive my emaciated Martha (the tiny skinny sheep in the middle second photo). She's had a tough tough year, been fighting to keep her alive. She's rebounding now though!!

The middle of the first photo is my best success story-- a dog attack, shredded her hind leg and opened her abdomen, Jan 15/14 (my birthday, great present...). Sweet Cleo is healthy, sound and expecting her first baby (ies) December-Jan! 




Diverse organic, grass-based farm in Georgetown, Tx. 

Offering Rambouillet sheep(meat and fiber), East Friesian x Blue Faced Leicester sheep(DAIRY, meat, and fiber), small stature purebred Jersey cattle and ADGA Alpine and Nubian dairy goats. 

Also 5+ acres in vegetables, CSA.


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## lexierowsell (Dec 10, 2013)

Kasota said:


> I honestly don't care if something is certified organic. I do care that animals are raised humanely and given the care they need. There are a lot of people who don't qualify legally to be certified organic and yet they raise things as naturally as possible with as little exposure to chemicals or gmo as possible and I would have no problem purchasing from them. I don't care if washed fleece is done with an organic product or not although I wouldn't necessarily want it done in that chemical that dissolves all the vm because I think it makes it harsh. Guess organic is just not a huge deal to me. Probably because I am personally so loaded with preservatives that I will never die. I am from the Twinkie Generation. hahaha


We aren't certified organic because I am not willing to put myself in a position where I would have to choose my livelihood or taking care of an animal. I just won't deny my animals penicillin when it could save their lives or anesthetic to ease their pain so that I can charge a couple dollars more per lb. 

I have severe skin sensitivities. When I put on clothes that are washed in (most) commercial detergents (Tide, Gain etc) I get instant hives and my skin crawls for days. Especially uncomfortable on the most sensitive parts... I have used a few different things to scour my wool, but will likely just stick with my organic laundry detergent or kookaburra (which astonishingly doesn't bother me!). 

I am sure there are other people as crazy as I am about GMO's, humane and ethical animal treatment, and responsible land maintenance. I guess I already know there are, haha, thats how I make my living now


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Sheep are generally raised organically, but not labelled so. They do well on pasture alone and get fat if grained. I&#8217;d guess most sheep are fed mostly on pasture with hay in the winter when the pasture is gone. So, I don&#8217;t know where you&#8217;d go with that. You need to be certified to call yourself organic, so you might want to use a different term. Pasture raised, for instance.


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## lexierowsell (Dec 10, 2013)

Maura said:


> Sheep are generally raised organically, but not labelled so. They do well on pasture alone and get fat if grained. Iâd guess most sheep are fed mostly on pasture with hay in the winter when the pasture is gone. So, I donât know where youâd go with that. You need to be certified to call yourself organic, so you might want to use a different term. Pasture raised, for instance.


I can count on 1 hand the number of sheep farmers I've encountered that do not grain their animals, and even those that raise them on pasture will often finish on grain. Lambs are 99% of the time (from my research, YMMV) offered creep. I also do not chemically worm, or treat with prophylactic wormers/antibiotics/hormones etc. 

My sheep graze rotationally and have 24/7 access to minerals (OMRI listed) and salt. They get nothing else unless they need it, and then are only treated chemically if in dire circumstance. Mostly I was asking wrt to the processing, I should have worded that differently, I'm sorry.


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## Kasota (Nov 25, 2013)

Maura, I hear you. I have a friend who was jumping through the hoops so that she could use "organic" on her farm literature. In the end she actually couldn't get it done because the pasture she had her cows on had not been free of any chemicals for X number of years. I forget how long it was but it was quite a few years. She switched to using "naturally raised" on her farm literature. She had the same concerns that Lexie does - didn't want to forgo being able to use an antibiotic when necessary. 

Lexi, my sister has the same contact issues with chemicals. For her, especially anything with petro chemicals. It's amazing the number of things she reacts to. She has all kinds of problems with her skin and the thing she's found so far that helps her the most is Cyndi's lanolin lotion. So I sure do understand.


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## SvenskaFlicka (Nov 2, 2011)

I can't use commercial laundry detergent as of October last year, but I didn't figure it out until February. Near as I can tell it is the petro chemicals and surfectants too. 

I actually prefer naturally raised to organic, because the way the government makes you do things for organic, it can be almost cruel to the animals. Sigh. I am 100% okay with the careful use of antibiotics and wormers when necessary.


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Contrary to popular belief you can give organic animals antibiotics and other therapeutic drugs, for diagnosed problems. I used to be engaged to an organic dairy farmer and if he needed to give antibiotics it was fine, however that milk went into a different container for a certain amount of time. I'm sure there are similar "rules" for meat animals......

I believe if you are not certified organic you can claim to be "using organic principles" or "transitional".


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## lexierowsell (Dec 10, 2013)

We went as far as having a certifier come to our property and prepare to do an inspection. The way I understood the process, I would have lost the organic qualification on that animals for its duration. We didn't move beyond that because a survey of our clients showed us they didn't care for the stamp. If/when we start shipping and selling abroad, it may be worthwhile. 

We have not (so far) had issue with the explanation of or the descriptor "beyond organic".


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## lambs.are.cute (Aug 15, 2010)

My understanding is for sheep if you give a antibiotic to them 1) as a brood ewe you loose her out of your rotation and have a certain amount of days to get rid of her and most producers cant sell her to another breeder in that time so she goes down the road no matter how great a ewe she is and 2) the lambs are automatically not organic from the first shot and never will be again (although they make exceptions for when you are first starting up but never again) and you have to sell them in like 10 days.......

also you have to put up with more pop inspections than having a grade A dairy license and they are legally allowed to search your property with out you if you aren't home
- which means you have to be careful of your dogs - and can yank your license at any time. 

I am another one of those "crazies" who doesn't offer creep grain. I have never needed it. I just make sure that there is enough space at the hay feeder until they can go on pasture and then they better be able to figure out how to graze or they get sold to the neighbor who dry lots her lambs. 

I coated my fleeces this summer just to try it out and decided it's a pain. Well mostly. It worked a treat but unless they are a colored animal I don't want fading I'll just let most of them be during the summer - except the one slob who won't keep clean without a coat. Winter is another matter. I can't keep them from spreading hay all over each other and so I will coat just because it makes life so much nicer. (You can look for my thread a while back and see the photos from last summer). 

I've sold a lot of fleece at shows (even fleece on the hoof - almost especially fleece on the hoof) and people seem to like knowing about the animal it comes from. My ram is the most popular because he's cute and dopey looking with a sweet personality (like a lab) and is stunning grey color. Too bad for them I like his fleece so much.


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## lexierowsell (Dec 10, 2013)

Exactly LAC. I'm just not willing to put myself in a position where I have to choose my livelihood over my animals. There's no way that what I'd get for my breeding ewes in meat would recover even part of what they'd give me in lambs, or to cover their cost! 

My foundation ewes, as 9 month olds, cost about $200 to purchase, and a couple hundred a year to keep. I don't mind the investment, my lamb goes for a super premium price. I won't let one suffer unduly, and I won't let one die of infection. 

I don't vaccinate my animals unless required by law (or requested by a purchaser). My foundation sheep have had cd&t, but nothing since. I intend to keep a closed flock now, with the couple nice rams I have and evaluating the ones that hit the ground. I gotta believe that the people keeping sheep 150 years ago did it without all the extra crap, I can give it a go too.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Marchwind said:


> Contrary to popular belief you can give organic animals antibiotics and other therapeutic drugs, for diagnosed problems. I used to be engaged to an organic dairy farmer and if he needed to give antibiotics it was fine, however that milk went into a different container for a certain amount of time. I'm sure there are similar "rules" for meat animals......
> 
> I believe if you are not certified organic you can claim to be "using organic principles" or "transitional".


That's not the case in Maryland, or most other states. I worked on an organic dairy here in Maryland and if we had to use an antibiotic if all other treatments failed, the animal had to be sold on the very next truck out. We had to double eartag with red tags so there'd be no mistake, and the antibiotics were kept under lock and key with only the manager having a key. It was super strict as far as antibiotics and dewormers go. Perhaps some states vary? 

But you're right, if you're not certified organic you're really not allowed to say organically raised. 

Lexie, I'd think explaining your husbandry practices would be more than enough for your customers....I think most people just want to be sure that drugs aren't used willy-nilly (when in fact they are almost always used properly) and your animals are treated humanely.


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## lexierowsell (Dec 10, 2013)

We decided not to pursue certification for exactly what reason, MDK. Our target people don't love the gov ;-)

I'm really curious now about the sheep raisers. Maybe I just took too small a survey to base a solid opinion, but in all but one "grass fed" specialty shepherd, the sheep keepers I've read about or been lucky enough to interrogate (because, let's be honest, haha, I'm a little intense...) have both vaccinated and wormed prophylacticly (is that even a word?) and fed grain to ewes, creep to lambs and finished with grain too.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

lexierowsell said:


> We decided not to pursue certification for exactly what reason, MDK. Our target people don't love the gov ;-)
> 
> I'm really curious now about the sheep raisers. Maybe I just took too small a survey to base a solid opinion, but in all but one "grass fed" specialty shepherd, the sheep keepers I've read about or been lucky enough to interrogate (because, let's be honest, haha, I'm a little intense...) have both vaccinated and wormed prophylacticly (is that even a word?) and fed grain to ewes, creep to lambs and finished with grain too.


 
Yes, I would say the majority aren't raising them organically, but instead using responsible conventional methods. (And yes, prophylactically is a word! )


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## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

I love this conversation . I think if all farmers were as honest as your guys were then there would be no need for an organic certification. Sadly many are bit by greed and are pretty unscrupulous. Small farms and family farms are the way to go. Have a relationship with your food and the people who grow it.


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## lambs.are.cute (Aug 15, 2010)

I think the above reason is why the term organic is less valuable than it was. The big business has gotten a hold of it and twisted it to wring the most money from it while holding to the absolute letter of the law and not the spirit. There are just so many loop holes and ambiguous terms (not that I'm saying that we need more laws!) that organic is no longer what it was. 

There's a farm out there that says it is better than organic and that's the term that I'm using right now. People who want to come out and see the livestock are welcome year round as long as they call and check im home. They can see for themselves that the animals are being cared for and what I say is happening is truely happening. I give tours to the local homeschooling family's and sell a lot of eggs and meat that way. 

So you are better than organic, you are following the spirit of the law with a heavy dose of common sense and caring for the well being of your livestock. (Also this is an unregulated term and they can't stop you from using it since you ARE saying you aren't organic  )


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## PNP Katahdins (Oct 28, 2008)

lambs.are.cute said:


> unless they are a colored animal I don't want fading I'll just let most of them be during the summer


this ^^^

Peg


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