# Need Feedback About this Off-Grid Power System BEFORE I buy



## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Hello Everyone!

We are getting Ready to purchase our Off Grid Power System. As such, although I have tried to read up and learn about these systems, I am also taking advice from a 'dealer' as to what is need to work with what etc. I also want to get a system that I don't have to keep adding to, or upgrading / replacing components. 

We have begun to work with Missouri Wind and Solar (MW&S) www.mwands.com and have visited their physical store, as it is with in driving distance. I liked having the ability to see all the components in person, instead of just a photo on the internet. 

However, I don't want to **ONLY** rely upon what they tell me, as they are a dealer and may try to sell me what they have... or maybe they are great and will steer me right... :shrug: 

I am trying to research components and understand what is the best system I can get for the $$$. 

But again, this is all new to me, so I wanted to post the main components here to get some *feed back* from you all who have knowledge and experience with these systems. 

*So Any Good Advice and Input is Greatly Appreciated! *


We have purchased our Power Inverter, but it is on back order, but is supposed to arrive at their store in a few weeks. While researching this particular power inverter is how I actually found out about MW&S in the first place. 

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*#1* - The Inverter we have ordered is the* AIMS 10,000 watt 48 volt Split Phase 120/240vac Inverter Charger* - Model #: PICOGLF10KW48V240VS *$1950*

The inverter is the only item we have purchased so far. But if we changed our mind, since its on back order, I bet we could still switch to a different one. But from what I have researched, I think this will fit our needs, and has some great features. 

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*All of these components below are what MW&S have suggested I need:*

*#2* -Solar Panels - 10 (qty) *230 Watt 24 Volt Polycrystalline* *$229 each - Total for All 10 $2248*
Product Link: http://goo.gl/qvJmHm

*I just realized these were Poly panels instead of Mono panels while making this post.... *

*Question:* I know I've read Monocrystalline Panels are better. But I've also read that they are only about 1% better/more efficient. 
*So if you were going to buy new panels, which would get? *

*Question #2* - They have listed on the paperwork that these 10-qty 24volt panels will give me 2300 watts of Solar...
*But...* from what I understand, since I am going with a 48 volt system, I have to connect 2 of these 24 volt panels together to make 48 volts, but each pair of panels would still be 230 watts @ 48 volts. 
Wouldn't that mean that I would only have 1150 watts @ 48 volts? ....But there would still be 2300 watts worth of panel there... 
I may be over thinking it. 

*Specs: *
*Nominal Maximum Output* - 230 Watts
*Nominal Open Circuit Voltage* - 37.1 Volts*
Nominal Short Circuit Current* - 8.21 Amps
*Nominal Maximum Output Voltage* - 29.8 Volts
*Nominal Maximum Output Current* - 7.71 Amps
*Conversion Efficiency* - 14.14%
*Nominal Mass* - 42 lbs / 19 kg*
Dimensions* - 64.4 x 39.1 x 1.6 in / 1636 x 994 x 40 mm (assembled by rivets)
*Cells* - 60 pcs polycrystalline
*Cells Dimensions* - 6.14 x 6.14 in / 156 x 156 mm
*Maximum System Voltage* - 1000 Volts European Standard / 600 Volts USA Standard

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*#3* - *48/96 Volt 2000 watt Falcon Mach 4 Freedom II 5 Blade Wind Turbine Generator (PMG not PMA)* *$859*
Product Link: http://goo.gl/JL9pkq
_*(picture on link shows 3 blade, but mine would be 5)*_

5 blades take more wind to start turning, but it also means it achieve high RPM in higher winds. 

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*#4* - *48/96 Volt 2000 watt Missouri Freedom II 11 Blade Wind Turbine Generator (PMG - not PMA)* *$797*
Product Link:  http://goo.gl/LRKv0O

This being an 11 Blade Turbine will start turning in much lower wind speeds (3-4 mph) and will at least produce some power, even when wind is low. But when wind is high, it will still produce good power along with the 5 blade turbine together. 

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This is the PMG that is on both of the above Turbines. Mine would be the 48 volt version and is of course 3 phase AC. 
Product Link: http://goo.gl/6vLZtp

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*#5* - *HVA All in One Charge Controller for Wind Turbine & Solar Panels* *$349* 
Link - http://goo.gl/YDslRf

I was told this charge controller would be used only for the Turbines, as it can not accept the both Turbines and All 10 Panels. 

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*#6*There is a separate *150 Amp 12/24/48V Wind & Solar PWM Charge Controller w/ Volt & Amp Meter* *$398* - just for the 10 Solar Panels.
I would post a link to it, but I can't find it on their website... 

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*#7* - 8 Qty *Trojan L16E-AC 6V deep-cycle Batteries* *$245 each - Total for All 8 $1960*

I'm not sure about these... I'm not against them, but... I can't help think there is something better for the cost. I know *Trojan also makes a Trojan L16RE-B 370 AH Deep Cycle Premium Battery* just for alternative energy, but its about *$100 higher*, and has the same amp hours...

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I of course don't have my brake switches, wiring, and other stuff listed. 

I am really thinking about using a water heater element as a dump load, as I hate to have power being wasted as hot air just because my batteries are full. I know its just hot water, but that's better than nothing. 

*Any other better uses for a dump load?*

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*So, What do you think of this system? Whats the Good, Bad, and the Ugly?? 

What can I expect to do in Reality, with a system such as this? *

*Any Good Advice, Comments, Experience, is Much Appreciated!*

~Thanks


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

You are doing the right thing by doing more research. I don't know about the brands you list, other than Trojan which is good, but you might look a little harder at the charge controllers and meters. 

How/where are you mounting the panels?

Are 8 batteries enough for your needs or do you plan on more before you're done? You seem to have more generating capacity than storage.

The cost of the turbine towers will be a significant part of your system. More by the time they are up and working. Will you climb for maintance or have to hire it done?

Who is doing the installation?

Are you getting electrical permits and inspections?


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Gray Wolf said:


> You are doing the right thing by doing more research.


Hi Gray Wolf! Thanks for the Reply! 
Yes! I don't want to buy something, and not know what it really is (good or bad) and what we really need. Especially with this kind of investment as this is a Huge Investment for us. This entire place is something we have wanted and had to plan out for a long time. So we really can't afford to make a big $ mistake, and want to get the best system we can that fits our needs. 




Gray Wolf said:


> I don't know about the brands you list, other than Trojan which is good, but you might look a little harder at the charge controllers and meters.


I was thinking about those last night myself. I am also wondering if there is a Charge Controller that could handle both turbines and *All 10 panels*, which I would assume there is. But would it be better and/or more cost effective, and what is the best brands, is what I have to find out. 

They build their own charge controllers and such, so that's why nobody knows the brand unless they have dealt with Missouri Wind and Solar (MW&S). 




Gray Wolf said:


> How/where are you mounting the panels


We are going to build a rack on the ground to hold them. I don't like the roof mount idea, as they are hard to get to for cleaning, or to get snow off, etc. 




Gray Wolf said:


> Are 8 batteries enough for your needs or do you plan on more before you're done? You seem to have more generating capacity than storage.


See, this is why I need feedback  
I was thinking about this too, but was unsure about it. We don't have as heavy of loads as most people.

For instance, We don't have any TV's, satellite dishes, etc. No dishwashers, no electric heat _(only wood burners, although we need better stoves)_, no central AC _(but we do currently have one small window unit)_. Our stove top is propane, but we want to get a wood burning cook stove. 
We don't have any desktop computers, but we do have several laptops. 

Our oven is electric, but again with a wood burning cook stove we would have that oven. And we currently have a small but regular refrigerator/freezer side by side, that may have to change though. 

One of our most *Important Priorities *is our Well. We *Must* be able to run our well, and according to the well company who drilled and installed it last fall for the previous owner, it has is 220v 1-1/2 HP pump. Reason being, the Static water level is 320 feet down, and the pump is setting at 400 feet. The well company told us that the pump would require at least 8000 watts so that there was no risk of burning the pump up over time. 

So, we must have a power system that can run this pump when we need it. But so that it doesn't have to kick on and off constantly, we are going to do away with the bladder tank, and instead have a 500 gallon storage tank sitting on top of a 8ft tall platform, which will give us the needed pressure via gravity. This way, the pump will only kick in to refill the 500 gallon tank every few days, instead of every time the 30 gallon bladder tank needs refilled. 

We decided with this, and to also do other things, and if we needed more power later on, we wanted to go with at least a 10,000 watt inverter. 
But, as you pointed out, it looks like we may need more batteries too. 




Gray Wolf said:


> The cost of the turbine towers will be a significant part of your system. More by the time they are up and working. Will you climb for maintenance or have to hire it done?


Yes, the towers will have some expense to them, depending on what and where we can get the materials. We are going to build them ourselves, and are planning on building a tower which will have the base concreted in. But where you can disconnect the guide wires, take out some heavy securing pins, and then lower the tower using a winch or hand operated crank. 

We've seen some towers like this, but are still thinking about our exact design. 
Something sort of like the one seen in this youtube video: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie8M3e9ki6o"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie8M3e9ki6o[/ame]





Gray Wolf said:


> Who is doing the installation?


Myself, my Dad, and maybe a couple of my cousins if/when heavy lifting is needed. 




Gray Wolf said:


> Are you getting electrical permits and inspections?


Well, here in missouri, not much is required. As long as you are not within city limits, and own more than 20 acres, They don't really have codes for literally Anything. And what very few 'codes' they have, they don't enforce. There is no permits for building or otherwise. You can pretty much do what you want. 

Which in a few select cases, is sometimes a bad thing with some of the things we have seen a few people with no common sense do... anyway.

Now there may be a few rules with the power company, *IF* a person were to do a grid tie system here. Like an outdoor disconnect box for the wind turbines or ? 

But we're going with an off grid system, not connected to the grid at all. And we'll be the one's working on it or with any of the electrical systems. We do all of our own electrical, plumbing, and just about anything else. Never been certified, but we know how to do it right, unlike many of the messes we have had to fix in houses we have been...
*
Anyway, that's a little more about our plans for this system, as I continue to research and learn all that I can

~Thanks*


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

The rule of thumb is to get a wind turbine at least 30' above anything around it --buildings, trees..
Go look at the chart that they published for that turbine. Common wind speeds will put the output of that turbine at maybe 400 watts. That 2000 watts is at 45 mph. You only get that during storms . . . . 

I have installed many systems with wind turbine's for customers. I do not like anything with more than three blades . . . . .bad idea. I would fear being within a quarter mile of one of those eleven bladed "things" (or any combination of blades above three) during a windy storm.

The wind water pumper "wind mills" have worked great for many many years. They were designed for torque to pump the water. Ever seen a water pumper self destruct in a storm . .?? . . . It ain't pretty . . . . . .

The controller from those guys uses a automotive type solenoid . . . .Not a long life for those things.

You did not have any battery monitoring gear listed in your list.
You need at least a TriMetric to better monitor the energy in and out of a system the size of yours.

If you were to add a second bank (in parallel) of batteries it would be like changing your car's fuel tank from 10 to 20 gallons. . . a good thing in that your "draw down" from the bank could/would be less . . . . meaning longer bat life.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Just a couple comments. Refrigerators are efficient these days by using small compressors that run a lot of the time. That can work against you if your inverter has operational losses or is oversized. In general, if there is no load it is better to have an inverter power down and wait for a load. If the compressor motor is sized to use the voltage of your system and avoid the inverter, so much the better.

Even a small window AC will use significant power. You might consider a generator sized to it for use when it isn't a sunny day when you have excess power coming out of your ears.

Accumulation tank for the well. Great idea - even better if it is set up to only allow pumping during periods of peak power generation - unless you trip a one time fill switch that will allow battery power for a set safe amount of time. I would go larger on the tank though, 1,000 gal minimum.


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Hi Jim-mi!



Jim-mi said:


> The rule of thumb is to get a wind turbine at least 30' above anything around it --buildings, trees..


Yes, that I knew. We were planning on approx a 60 or so feet tower. I don't know if there is a way to safely mount 2 turbines on 1 tower, or if we will have to have two separate towers. 



Jim-mi said:


> Go look at the chart that they published for that turbine. Common wind speeds will put the output of that turbine at maybe 400 watts. That 2000 watts is at 45 mph. You only get that during storms . . . .


Ok... went and looked it up again, and with studying the graph closely, I finally understood it. And you are *exactly correct*, they are listing around *45mph winds for 2000 watts* , and it must have 30 mph just to get a 1000 watts....  Which is ridiculous to me... 

When is anyone going to get that much *steady* wind at those speeds? Its just not going to happen.... unless you stick it up in the jet stream... 



Jim-mi said:


> I have installed many systems with wind turbine's for customers. I do not like anything with more than three blades . . . . .bad idea.


Ok... Can you tell me why? Is it *only* because they tend to self destruct? _Not that 'self destructing' wouldn't be reason enough_, but is there other things you don't like about more than 3 blade turbines?

*Additional Question:* From what I have read in other sites and such, I thought it took higher wind speeds to turn 3 blade turbines? Which is why several sites recommended 5,7,9,11 or ...whatever blades for different wind speeds. 

*Do you Recommend any specific Brands/Type of Wind Turbines?*



Jim-mi said:


> I would fear being within a quarter mile of one of those eleven bladed "things" (or any combination of blades above three) during a windy storm.


So you are saying that 3 blades are more durable during a storm? I was told that higher blade numbers would start the wind turbine turning at lower speeds, but would limit what its top RPM was. And that 3 blade turbines would reach the highest RPM's. 




Jim-mi said:


> The wind water pumper "wind mills" have worked great for many many years. They were designed for torque to pump the water. Ever seen a water pumper self destruct in a storm . .?? . . . It ain't pretty . . . . . .


We actually thought about having one of those just for the well, but they are pretty pricy just to pump water. Let alone the cost of pulling this pump and having one installed. 



Jim-mi said:


> The controller from those guys uses a automotive type solenoid . . . .Not a long life for those things.


Ok, *Solenoid = Bad*. Got It. 

*Any recommendations on what makes a Good Controller? 
What are the best brands?*



Jim-mi said:


> You did not have any battery monitoring gear listed in your list.
> You need at least a TriMetric to better monitor the energy in and out of a system the size of yours.


Humm... that is something they didn't even talk about at all. I was wondering about that as I know there has to be a way to monitor the batteries. I wasn't sure if it was built into the charge controllers or if it was a separate piece of equipment. Now I know.




Jim-mi said:


> If you were to add a second bank (in parallel) of batteries it would be like changing your car's fuel tank from 10 to 20 gallons. . . a good thing in that your "draw down" from the bank could/would be less . . . . meaning longer bat life.


That I knew, and have been contemplating going to 16 batteries. As you are already the 2nd one to mention that 8 was to small of a bank for 48v system.

* Thanks Jim-mi for your Comments!* 
It has helped me to understand several problems with this system, which will help me to figure out what I do need. 

~Thanks


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Hi Harry Chickpea! 



Harry Chickpea said:


> Just a couple comments. Refrigerators are efficient these days by using small compressors that run a lot of the time. That can work against you if your inverter has operational losses or is oversized. In general, if there is no load it is better to have an inverter power down and wait for a load. If the compressor motor is sized to use the voltage of your system and avoid the inverter, so much the better.


Ok, so are you saying that the refrigerator might be to-efficient? 
As far as the one we currently have, it came with the house, so I still have to look at it and see what its ratings is. 




Harry Chickpea said:


> Even a small window AC will use significant power. You might consider a generator sized to it for use when it isn't a sunny day when you have excess power coming out of your ears.


The one that is currently here lists on its data tag that it is a 5000 btu - 500 watt. We don't use it much, mostly just when it is really humid, but it would be nice to at least be able to use it. Wouldn't mind having a little bigger one, but that would probably be out of the question. 




Harry Chickpea said:


> Accumulation tank for the well. Great idea - even better if it is set up to only allow pumping during periods of peak power generation - unless you trip a one time fill switch that will allow battery power for a set safe amount of time. I would go larger on the tank though, 1,000 gal minimum.


Yes, we were going to have it on a manual switch, so we could fill it when we wanted to. We would install a float switch, Only so that we didn't have to sit and wait until it was full to turn it off. But we would flip the fill switch off after it was done. 

We had been talking about a larger tank, and your point about having more 'flexibility' of when to fill it at 'Peak Power' is a key point. So that may have just made up our mind to go with a 1000 gallon. 

*Thanks for the Reply!*


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

We have a 1,000 gal tank up the hill from the house. Our system doesn't even try to run our 560' deep well or pump another 150' up the hill. I built our system to only deliver 120 volt power to the house. We pump water every couple of weeks by running a 8,000 watt generator for a few hours whenever the battery bank needs charging and/or we are doing laundry. We have a float switch in the tank to avoid overfilling.

You'll need more than 8' of head in order to get enough water pressure. Above ground tank may freeze. I'd bury a 1,000 or 2,500 gal tank and then use a small 120 volt pump to pump out of that into a conventional pressure tank.

The 8,000 watt generator only gets run to pump water or run welders over at the shop, everything else is 120 volts. When cloudy we charge batteries with a 2,000 watt generator. You will need a generator - everyone does sooner or later.

Web site for our house is: offgrid150.simpl.com

We have several meters including a TriMetric to keep an eye on things.

Locally built stuff may well be great but are you dependent on them for repairs?

Our system parts are Outback, Magnum Energy, Trace/Xantrex, Bogart.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

The majority of my installs have been Bergey Xl (1k) and the 10k

I defer the blade numbers to all the research and development done by a whole lot of folks of great knowledge and lots of $$$$ for R&D. 
NO turbines of worth use more than three blades. 
Three blades have inherently better balance than two.---I won't get into the tech of that. 
Yes the multi blades will start going at a moderately low speed and give YOU the impression that lots of power is being generated. 
Try to imagine the forces on that eleven blade in a nasty MO storm.....shudder . . .
Now see the pictures of water pumpers distroyed by storms.
I have been on the look out for years for a water pumper........

Midnight Solar makes by far the best controllers available . . . . . at $550 to 700

At mid day I flipped the switch and solar alone powered my 240vac deep well pump . .filling the holding tank . .the float switch turned off the pump. Water is pressurized on the output of the holding tank.

I have gotten a part or two from the M Co. . . .I do not wish to bad mouth all their products . . . .But there is better equipment available.

And from what you have posted thus far, I can only offer you lots of incouragement to--GO for It........


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Jim-mi said:


> The majority of my installs have been Bergey Xl (1k) and the 10k
> 
> I defer the blade numbers to all the research and development done by a whole lot of folks of great knowledge and lots of $$$$ for R&D.
> NO turbines of worth use more than three blades.


ok.




Jim-mi said:


> Three blades have inherently better balance than two.---I won't get into the tech of that.


Yes, I understand the need for an odd number of blades. That was one of the first things I learned when beginning my research on turbines. 



Jim-mi said:


> Yes the multi blades will start going at a moderately low speed and give YOU the impression that lots of power is being generated.


Ok, well I looked up the Bergey XL 1Kw that you suggested. It doesn't reach that 1k output until it is about 25mph... 
http://www.angelwindenergy.com/files/XL1.Spec.pdf

The Freedom II reaches 1kw at 30mph...

Thats not a big difference in my book, especially when the Bergey is more than $3000+ higher. 

_
Also the Bergey Excel 1 ($4000+), which seems to be their replacement for the XL1, also does not reach 1kw until 25mph. 

http://bergey.com/products/wind-turbines/bergey-excel-1_




Jim-mi said:


> Try to imagine the forces on that eleven blade in a nasty MO storm.....shudder . . .
> Now see the pictures of water pumpers distroyed by storms.
> I have been on the look out for years for a water pumper........


3 much longer and larger blades - *verses* - 5 or even 11 smaller shorter blades... 
Each individual blade will receive equal wind pressure for its amount of surface area. 

Can a wind turbine be destroyed by wind? Sure. All will fail at some point. 

But they should also be designed to throw themselves out of the wind _(furling?)_ at or above their top speed, as to protect the turbine in 'normal' high winds or storms. 
*
I'm not trying to argue with you*, you obviously like and have experience with the Bergey. I'm sure its a very well built turbine.

I'm just trying to compare a $800 turbine to a $4000+ turbine and the similarities and differences of both. I for sure don't have $4k+ to spend on one single 1kw turbine. Even if I did, before I would do that, I would just buy another 1kw of solar and forget about it. 

But I like the idea of being able to also produce power at any time of day, and also on heavy cloud/overcast or rainy days. Especially if those conditions continue for days or even a week or so. 




Jim-mi said:


> Midnight Solar makes by far the best controllers available . . . . . at $550 to 700


I'll check them out. I have seen the name before. 




Jim-mi said:


> At mid day I flipped the switch and solar alone powered my 240vac deep well pump . .filling the holding tank . .the float switch turned off the pump. Water is pressurized on the output of the holding tank.


:goodjob:



Jim-mi said:


> I have gotten a part or two from the M Co. . . .I do not wish to bad mouth all their products . . . .But there is better equipment available.
> 
> And from what you have posted thus far, I can only offer you lots of incouragement to--GO for It........


*Ok, Thanks for the replies and the information.* I'm going to continue researching and weigh my options carefully. 

*~Thanks Again!*


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Gray Wolf said:


> We have a 1,000 gal tank up the hill from the house. Our system doesn't even try to run our 560' deep well or pump another 150' up the hill. I built our system to only deliver 120 volt power to the house. We pump water every couple of weeks by running a 8,000 watt generator for a few hours whenever the battery bank needs charging and/or we are doing laundry. We have a float switch in the tank to avoid overfilling.


That was our plan also for a float switch. 



Gray Wolf said:


> You'll need more than 8' of head in order to get enough water pressure. Above ground tank may freeze.


Hummm. You may be right, we will have to do some testing before we build a platform. 



Gray Wolf said:


> I'd bury a 1,000 or 2,500 gal tank and then use a small 120 volt pump to pump out of that into a conventional pressure tank.
> 
> The 8,000 watt generator only gets run to pump water or run welders over at the shop, everything else is 120 volts. When cloudy we charge batteries with a 2,000 watt generator.


We also want to use a generator for backup charging. 



Gray Wolf said:


> You will need a generator - everyone does sooner or later.


Sure, we already have a couple.



Gray Wolf said:


> Web site for our house is: offgrid150.simpl.com


Thanks! I'll look it up. :kung: 



Gray Wolf said:


> We have several meters including a TriMetric to keep an eye on things.


Yep, thats another item I have to look into. 



Gray Wolf said:


> Locally built stuff may well be great but are you dependent on them for repairs?


I hope to learn my system inside and out, and be able to repair it myself. But if I can't they build all their compnents in several large buildings behind their store, so they can do all repairs for their own brand equipment in house. 



Gray Wolf said:


> Our system parts are Outback, Magnum Energy, Trace/Xantrex, Bogart.


Thanks! I'll look up your site, and look into these brands. 

~Thanks Again!


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Most of this gear now days is way hi-tech. The odds of a 'normal' person fixing a charge controller or inverter are approaching zero. If you plan on fixing it, be sure to get more documentation than an owners manual or you don't stand a chance.

I hope your guys are around forever, but....... They probably won't give you a complete parts list or access to the software but I'd ask before I bought off-brand components. You may also need some trick equipment to flash/reflash memory.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

You only get 0.43 pounds of static water pressure for every foot of head. Assumed 20 pounds of pressure needs 46' of elevation above your faucet/shower/washing machine.

More normal is more pressure. You pick what you want and go from there. Use large diameter piping to reduce friction losses.


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Gray Wolf said:


> You only get 0.43 pounds of static water pressure for every foot of head. Assumed 20 pounds of pressure needs 46' of elevation above your faucet/shower/washing machine.
> 
> More normal is more pressure. You pick what you want and go from there. Use large diameter piping to reduce friction losses.


Hummm.... Yes it seems 1 psi is equal to 2.3 feet of head...

Ok, an 'on demand pump' or a pump to fill a bladder tank may be in order. Would need one that is very energy conservative though.

Thanks for the info Grey Wolf :thumb:


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Better bury the tank to keep it from freezing.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

You might want to do some research on the power of wind.
The Bergey peaks at 25 mph. The thing you are talking about peaks at 45 mph. 
There's a world of difference there.
Find the charts for your local area and check the wind averages.
How often do you see wind above 25mph.............???....
And the power of the wind goes up by the cube with height.
Not many areas is a 60' tower any where tall enough. 

In the long run you are far better off with the better equipment.

My points here is that if your going to do wind . . . do it right with proper equipment.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

You'll learn to do laundry, water garden, etc when the sun is shining. I wouldn't worry too much about the pressure tank power as it should only run once in a while. Get the biggest pressure tank you can afford to reduce short-cycling.

You might be able to find a 48 volt motor and run it direct to avoid inverter losses, but the cost probably wouldn't be worth it.


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Jim-mi said:


> You might want to do some research on the power of wind.
> The Bergey peaks at 25 mph. The thing you are talking about peaks at 45 mph.
> There's a world of difference there.


As I stated and linked specs before...

*Bergey XL1* - produces *1kw/1000 watts* @ *25mph*

*Freedom II* - produces *1kw/1000 watts* @ *30mph*

So there is Only *5mph* difference in power production between the Freedom II and the Bergey to produce the same*1kw/1000 watts*. 

*The 45 mph you keep referring to:*
The Freedom II @ *45mph* is putting out *2kw/2000 watts
*

Will it reach this power output often? No, of course not. But the 800watt to 1kw/1000watt is obtainable at 25mph to 30mph. 


*Here is the Wind Speed Graphs for Both the Bergey XL1 and the Freedom II:* 























Jim-mi said:


> Find the charts for your local area and check the wind averages.
> How often do you see wind above 25mph.............???....
> And the power of the wind goes up by the cube with height.
> Not many areas is a 60' tower any where tall enough.


At 25mph, the Freedom II produces over 800 watts. 
An extra 200 watts at the same wind speed is not worth nearly $4000 more cost. 




Jim-mi said:


> In the long run you are far better off with the better equipment.
> 
> My points here is that if your going to do wind . . . do it right with proper equipment.


My point is it is not worth spending nearly $4000 more for a 1kw turbine. 

Its crazy that bergey is selling a 1kw turbine for $4500 in the first place. 
It should be at least a 3-5kw for that price.

As stated before, if that were the case, I'd spend $1000 for an additional 1kw in solar panels and forget it. 

Just my 2-cents


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

We don't have enough wind here to matter, so I never got up to speed on turbines, but I do think it is hard to get a honest comparison as most manufacturers develop their own ratings using different criteria. 

Find a few Home Power articles on wind for better info.

Buy or rent a data-logging wind meter to see what kind of average wind speeds you really have at your site. It's probably much less than you think.


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Gray Wolf said:


> We don't have enough wind here to matter, so I never got up to speed on turbines, but I do think it is hard to get a honest comparison as most manufacturers develop their own ratings using different criteria.
> 
> Find a few Home Power articles on wind for better info.
> 
> Buy or rent a data-logging wind meter to see what kind of average wind speeds you really have at your site. It's probably much less than you think.


I've already been thinking about getting a wind speed meter. I'm not saying that the wind here is always great, its not. There is days, sometimes several days in a row, where it is cloudy or rainy and such where solar won't be able to do much, but there is a decent wind. 

Thats all I'm looking for, something to help out when the solar isn't going to be able to work. 

Now I understand that turbines aren't going to work all the time, and thats why solar is needed to, as it will be doing a lot of the work, especially in july/august when it is the hottest/most sun and when the wind can be pretty still. 


Anyway, what I do know is that I will have to rethink the water tank to use a small pump to fill a large bladder tank, as you stated Gray Wolf. 

I will also need a battery monitor.

And I would like to get 16 batteries instead of 8. 
However, I may have to start with 8, and if that doesn't work good enough, I'll have to add 8 more later when I can afford to. 

~Thanks


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Build/buy a battery box big enough for 16 so you won't have to unhook everything when you upgrade.


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Gray Wolf said:


> Web site for our house is: offgrid150.simpl.com
> 
> We have several meters including a TriMetric to keep an eye on things.


Is the Bogart TriMetric TM-2025-RV-F something like you use?
Like this one: http://goo.gl/YeJu92


You have a Nice Property by the way. We looked all over NW Montana and North Idaho, and some in east washington, trying to find a similar property. But we couldn't find something we could afford. The place we have here is missouri is OK, but I would have liked, and searched a lot for, a property which bordered national forest.

~Thanks


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

"However, I may have to start with 8, and if that doesn't work good enough, I'll have to _add 8 more_ later when I can afford to."

Not a good idea. *Batteries want to all be of the same age and condition.* If you start adding new to old the charging will be off, the old batteries will drag down the new, etc.


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Harry Chickpea said:


> "However, I may have to start with 8, and if that doesn't work good enough, I'll have to _add 8 more_ later when I can afford to."
> 
> Not a good idea. *Batteries want to all be of the same age and condition.* If you start adding new to old the charging will be off, the old batteries will drag down the new, etc.


Yes, I know it will do that if the 'old' batteries have some age. 

I'm not talking about 6 months to a year later. 

I looking at maybe buying the 2nd set of 8 only a couple months after the first set.

* Would even that be to big of span of time between the sets?*

~Thanks


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Gray Wolf said:


> Build/buy a battery box big enough for 16 so you won't have to unhook everything when you upgrade.


For sure, and Yeah I'm just going to build it. 
I want to have enough room to keep a half inch space at least between each of the batteries.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

"*Would even that be to big of span of time between the sets?"

*Probably*. *My guess is that that first set could get abused very easily. If it was 2 months and they only had EVER discharged to 10% of capacity, then you would likely be safe. If you go down to 30% or more a few times, no.


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## Peasant (May 18, 2013)

Harry Chickpea said:


> "*Would even that be to big of span of time between the sets?"
> 
> *Probably*. *My guess is that that first set could get abused very easily. If it was 2 months and they only had EVER discharged to 10% of capacity, then you would likely be safe. If you go down to 30% or more a few times, no.


Worst case is the new batteries get dragged down by the older batteries. But a couple months won't be a big deal IMHO. These batteries should last several years. So they may have to be replaced at 58 months instead of 60.

You're right about the first set being abused, good point. It takes some practice to learn how to manage a battery bank, especially with all new equipment (panels, charge controller, meter, etc.). I'd be hesitant to spend thousands on a battery bank if I've never managed one before.


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## Peasant (May 18, 2013)

> Question #2 - They have listed on the paperwork that these 10-qty 24volt panels will give me 2300 watts of Solar...
> But... from what I understand, since I am going with a 48 volt system, I have to connect 2 of these 24 volt panels together to make 48 volts, but each pair of panels would still be 230 watts @ 48 volts.
> Wouldn't that mean that I would only have 1150 watts @ 48 volts? ....But there would still be 2300 watts worth of panel there...
> I may be over thinking it.
> ...


These are grid-tied panels. 24V panels should have a Vmp of ~35V.

To run a 48V system you could connect these panels in series and use an MPPT charge controller. But your link to the charge controller doesn't say whether it's MPPT or PWM. If they don't say, it's probably PWM.

If these were actually 24V panels, your figure of 1150W @ 48V would be correct. The 2300W figure is for 24V.

For example, I have two 12V panels, each of which has an Imp of 8.5 amps. I have them paralleled, so I get 17.0 amps @ 12V = 204W. 

If I put them in series, I'd have 8.5 amps @ 24V = 204W. Actual voltage and amps varies quite a bit depending on sun, loads, battery bank state of charge, etc., but you get the picture.

10,000W is a MASSIVE inverter. The no-load draw and inefficiencies at small loads will be correspondingly massive. If you're sizing it to run your well pump, I think Gray Wolf's system of using a generator to fill an accumulation tank makes more sense. You could then use a 12V or 24V pump from the tank to the house.

At the very least only run the big inverter when needed and use a much smaller inverter for your other loads (size will depend on your loads).

Your battery bank is a tad on the small side, but not too bad. I've sized my system for winter use, so tend to favor smaller battery banks in order to minimize use of my generator to charge my batteries in winter. The ratio of my panel wattage to battery bank capacity is 2.8. The ratio for your system is 3.1, which means you're heavy on the power generation, light on the power storage, at least compared to me. You could probably add two more L16s if you wanted to. 

Do you have a way to charge these with your generator? That's gonna take a big battery charger.

Can't help you with wind. Haven't heard good things about small wind turbines, but I haven't researched them in any depth.

Have you measured your loads with a Kill-A-Watt meter? If not, that should be the very first step. Don't buy anything else before you do this. You should know Watt-hours @ 120V per day. Can't properly size a system otherwise.


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## idahodave (Jan 20, 2005)

I think you're short battery storage. 

As posted above you need to estimate power needs to determine system size. 

Sams sell a golf cart battery for less than half of the T105 REs and would make a good starter set to learn on.

With 20 panels you should use a MPPT charge controller. You get more power from the array and reduce the size of wires to the array. As planned the array current would be a maximum of 77 amps, so voltage drop and wire size are important. The grid tied panels also are short on voltage and with high temperature and IR drop in wiring might not fully charge a 48 volt battery bank. With a MPPT and 4 panels in series in 5 banks, current would be 38 amps.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

We have 8 panels that are 235 each. Sunny day and a MPPT charge controller puts 65 amps at 24 volts into our battery bank. 

FYI, 
We have more power than we need in the summer so I leave the panels at the winter tilt all year. Saves money and work.
Check the water in the batteries!
MPPT is the only way to go.
You can make more power in the winter when it's cold and the sun is bouncing off the snow. 
Bright moonlight sometimes makes enough power to show up on the meter.
Think before you buy a tracking mount.


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Peasant said:


> These are grid-tied panels. 24V panels should have a Vmp of ~35V.


OK. I haven't read about this before. *What is the difference between Grid-Tie Solar Panels and Off Grid Panels? *




Peasant said:


> To run a 48V system you could connect these panels in series and use an MPPT charge controller. But your link to the charge controller doesn't say whether it's MPPT or PWM. If they don't say, it's probably PWM.


These Panels with a MPPT CC? Or Off Grid Panels?




Peasant said:


> If these were actually 24V panels, your figure of 1150W @ 48V would be correct. The 2300W figure is for 24V.
> 
> For example, I have two 12V panels, each of which has an Imp of 8.5 amps. I have them paralleled, so I get 17.0 amps @ 12V = 204W.
> 
> If I put them in series, I'd have 8.5 amps @ 24V = 204W. Actual voltage and amps varies quite a bit depending on sun, loads, battery bank state of charge, etc., but you get the picture.


That I get. 



Peasant said:


> 10,000W is a MASSIVE inverter. The no-load draw and inefficiencies at small loads will be correspondingly massive. If you're sizing it to run your well pump, I think Gray Wolf's system of using a generator to fill an accumulation tank makes more sense. You could then use a 12V or 24V pump from the tank to the house.
> 
> At the very least only run the big inverter when needed and use a much smaller inverter for your other loads (size will depend on your loads).
> 
> Your battery bank is a tad on the small side, but not too bad. I've sized my system for winter use, so tend to favor smaller battery banks in order to minimize use of my generator to charge my batteries in winter. The ratio of my panel wattage to battery bank capacity is 2.8. The ratio for your system is 3.1, which means you're heavy on the power generation, light on the power storage, at least compared to me. You could probably add two more L16s if you wanted to.


I am looking into trying to find 2 Volt Batteries, like those used in cell towers. I've put out some 'feelers' to see what I can come up with within driving distance. 

But if I am unable to find those, then the Trojan's will be what I have to go with. Not sure which model is better though, I've seen L16's and 105's most often recommended. If I have to go this route, I'd like to buy 16 to start with, but I don't know. 



Peasant said:


> Do you have a way to charge these with your generator? That's gonna take a big battery charger.


That Inverter is also a charger, in the respect a generator with 220v output can be connected to charge the bank. And Yes, one of our generators is large enough and has the 220v connection, I have spoken with AIMS to make sure what size genset was needed.




Peasant said:


> Can't help you with wind. Haven't heard good things about small wind turbines, but I haven't researched them in any depth.
> 
> Have you measured your loads with a Kill-A-Watt meter? If not, that should be the very first step. Don't buy anything else before you do this. You should know Watt-hours @ 120V per day. Can't properly size a system otherwise.


I bought a kill-a-watt meter back sometime ago, and have used it several times. I have not yet used it since we moved here though, but I am getting ready to start doing some measurements on several items that I'm not sure about. Just haven't had a lot of time lately, but I have to get it done.


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## Peasant (May 18, 2013)

warreng5995 said:


> OK. I haven't read about this before. *What is the difference between Grid-Tie Solar Panels and Off Grid Panels? *


It's the maximum voltage (Vmp). 24V panels are designed for off-grid applications, just like 12V panels. Their voltage is high enough to charge deep cycle batteries. In the case of 24V, that's a Vmp of ~35V.

Grid-tied panels, as the name suggestions, are not designed to charge batteries. Most of the panels on the market today are grid-tied. They can be used in off-grid applications, but require an MPPT charge controller. For a system the size you're thinking of, you should get an MPPT controller anyway.

Let's say you had 4 Trojan batteries wired in series to give you 24V. And let's say you tried to use these grid-tied panels to charge them.

You need 29.6V for the absorption phase. These panels are rated at 29.8V. Good to go, right?

Except there will be losses from wires and the charge controller. Let's call it 3%. So the voltage at the batteries would only be 28.9V. Too low.

Most likely scenario is that the batteries will often fail to fully charge. You'd also be unable to equalize them with these panels. Trojans need 31V for equalization in a 24V set up. Equalization is important for long battery life.

Not that these panels can't be used, you just have to put them in series and use an MPPT controller. Two of these panels in series will give you 59.6V, which an MPPT controller will reduce to 29.6V during the absorption phase. This would also give you the ability to run an equalization charge at 31V.

Double all these numbers for a 48V system.



> But if I am unable to find those, then the Trojan's will be what I have to go with. Not sure which model is better though, I've seen L16's and 105's most often recommended. If I have to go this route, I'd like to buy 16 to start with, but I don't know.


Trojan makes a fine battery. L16s are monsters, but plenty of off-grid folks use them. I use T-105s myself.

I'd stay away from off-brand stuff or anything with the word "marine" on it. Just because a battery says it's "deep cycle" doesn't mean it actually is. 

That said, it wouldn't hurt to buy a couple cheaper batteries and experiment on them. Sacrificial lambs. It'd be a shame to buy a big L16 battery bank and run it into the ground. Takes some practice to manage a battery bank.



> I bought a kill-a-watt meter back sometime ago, and have used it several times. I have not yet used it since we moved here though, but I am getting ready to start doing some measurements on several items that I'm not sure about. Just haven't had a lot of time lately, but I have to get it done.


Based on what I could glean, sounds like your loads aren't that big, aside from the well pump. You might be overbuilding this system. But only way to tell is to measure the loads.

Ideally you keep the Kill-A-Watt plugged in for several days, or better yet, a full week or more. I know that I use a lot more power on the weekends.

Another thing to keep in mind with regards to inverters is the difference between true sine wave (TSW) vs. modified sine wave (MSW). Sounds like you're going to be starting up induction motors (fridge, well pump), in which case it might make sense to get a TSW. MSW inverters don't play well with some motors (link to more info).

You should also measure the surge of the well pump at start up, which can sometimes be several times its rating. The inverter needs to be sized accordingly.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

warreng5995 said:


> OK. I haven't read about this before. *What is the difference between Grid-Tie Solar Panels and Off Grid Panels? *



The only difference is the voltage. Using an MPPT controller, it really doesn't matter.

Grid tie systems generally use LONG strings of panels, because most central grid tie inverters won't even 'fire up' until you get enough sun on the panels that the voltage hits in the mid 200v range.....so they would use a string (wired in series) of, say, 15-20 of those 29v panels to produce a normal max voltage in the 400-500v+ range.

An off grid system might use panels in singles....and 29v would be very border line as to charging a 24v system. As Peasant said, you'd want something in the mid 30'ish range if you plan to run single panels...which is all some charge controllers will let you do.

HOWEVER, if you get a good MPPT controller, you can run 150v in (Outback brand) or 250v in (Midnite brand) (less some derating for max conditions)......so you can string panels in series up to, say, 125v for the Outback, so that would let you run about 4 of those 29v panels in a string, or 116v into the controller, then you select your output voltage (48 in your case) to match the battery bank and inverter you've picked, and the controller steps down the voltage, and steps up the amperage on the output side.


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## idahodave (Jan 20, 2005)

The currents in my previous post were from the array to the charge controller, not to the battery bank. If a PWM cc is used then array current=charge current. For a MPPT the charge current is (array power)/battery voltage "while being charged"

Grid tied panels usually have 60 cells and a "24v" panel would have 72 cells. Each cell is about 0.5 volts out.

Output voltage is at 25 deg C and will move about -0.4% per deg C, so a 30 volt rating might drop more than 3 volts on a warm day (or 54v for two) and not provide enough voltage (60v)to fully charge your battery bank.

4 of these panels in series will exceed the maximum input voltage of an Outback on a cold day, so consider another MPPT for a series connection of 4 grid tied panels.


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Sorry I have posted some replies to a few of you. I have been reading your posts and your information and suggestions though, and am trying to absorb the information.

I have begun to search for 2 volt deep cycle batteries, the type that is most commonly used in cell phone towers as a backup. I'm going to try to find some, and have begun trying to get in contact with the right people. 

I am also looking into Midnight MPPT Charge Controllers, as per several of your suggestions. I have joined their forums, and have been watching some of their online videos about their products. I understand some of it, but its a learning curve for sure. 
I am trying to figure out if all 10(qty) 24v solar panels and 2(qty) 2kw turbines, could connect to one Midnight CC. As in can it control both systems, and also be able to accept the voltage coming in. 

I also would like to find a basic diagram layout of all components, as in what connects to what, and basically what each component does. I know you have your panels and turbines, and they are going to connect to your CC, and that connects to your batteries, but there is disconnect switches, battery monitors, 'Clipper', breakers, and a Lot more. A basic layout would help me get it right in my head of how everything connects, and what is needed. 

Anyway, just wanted to post a quick update. 
Thanks Everyone for your Posts! :thumb:


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## warreng5995 (Jun 26, 2014)

Hey all, its been a while but I just posted a new thread with the updates and decisions we made on our power system, plus a few questions about battery charging. Thought I would post the Link *HERE* to the new thread, if anyone wanted to see what we ended up doing. 

*Thanks All!*


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

WE have the xl1. WE looked at a lot of turbines before we went with one of the most tried and true turbines. It has been through a lot of nasty thunderstorms here in west Texas. And has been struck by lightening at least once. It was an 8$ fix.
I would say if you can wear your hat outside on a daily basis without tying it to your head stick the money into solar.
Been around it for a few years and work with a great installer. I have not heard of any of the brands. 
I to like the Midnite charge controllers and LIGHTENING ARRESTORS.
Also fond of outback equipment.
I look back now at some of the things we looked at 10years ago that was supposedly the new and improved, and they are nowhere to be found now. Glad I went with equipment that had a lot of good reviews. Its good to have a good customer service tech to talk to if you need them, make that when you need them.


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## AndrewD (Nov 24, 2015)

Thatâs great that you are considering solar! I donât at all blame you for not wanting to only rely on a dealer. You want to be able to get a good look at all of your options before going forward, and you donât really get that with a dealer. If you put all of your faith in a dealer, youâre really just seeing what they have to offer, which may or may not be a good deal. Itâs best to go to a site where you can look at all of your options before committing to one. A great site for doing this is Solar to the People: http://solar-to-the-people.com/ There are also some great sites that can help you determine the energy output of a system, such as PVWatts (http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/index.php). You need to take into account the varying prices of solar power from location to location. Thereâs a good page from the U.S. Department of Energy that has a lot of good information on the prices of solar power across the U.S.: http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy14osti/62558.pdf You might also want to check out this FAQ on solar power: http://www.seia.org/about/solar-energy/solar-faq 

I hope this helps! I wish you the best of luck in choosing your solar power system!


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

It's been my experence that you need to focus on three things with an inverter,

Since an inverter is MOST EFFICIENT at its highest CONTINOUS output,
The inverter can waste energy when its LIGHTLY LOADED.

I try to get inverters that will 'Sync' and share load,
Smaller Inverter to run the lower loads common in the home,
With energy IQ, and conservation, the home might 'Idle' along at 1,500 or 2,000 watts just fine,
Then when you kick a bunch of lights on, appliances, entertainment,
The load may shoot up to 10,000 watts.

Since I didn't see what your 'Normal' daily or weekly useage is,
I have no way of guessing what your consumption is.

Inverters that 'Idle' when not in use (communicate with each other),
And come on line only when demand rises,
Will save you money/energy in the long run.
(And we don't buy solar for the short term)

The second thing is 'Rackable', meaning does the inverter 'Rack' so is easy to add inverters as demand grows,
Or can you 'Easily' remove a damaged/failed unit and plug in a back up?

Racks are NOT mandatory, just real handy.
You CAN wire your power sources through disconnects, switch power to the working inverter.
YOU are your power supplier, so its always a good idea to have a back up inverter off grid,
Something large enough for basic power to the fridge, lights, coffee maker!
Some paces are REAL SLOW about warranty work, and you don't want to 'Go Dark' during the two or three months it takes to get warranty,
Or even two weeks while you get a new full size inverter.
Nothing like having to send off to Germany or Australia to get warranty or a new inverter.

After the initial install, or if you are getting tax credits/rebates, order the full size secondary now so its covered by the tax credits/rebates.
If you don't want to do that, get a smaller 'Make Due' back up inverter as soon as you can. 

The third thing,
Conservation is the name of the game when you are off grid.
LED or CF lights,
Don't try to make raw heat with electricity, its hatefully inefficient.
A microwave for a couple of minutes is one thing,
But an electric water heater, stove, cloths dryer, home heat is entirely different.

Consider sun tracking with your panels.
Panels that track the sun can produce up to 40% more energy.
Depending on the tracking system you use, it can be simple & cheap to do.
Fixed panels are only 'Optimum' for 2 hours a day, and that's only if you adjust for attitude each month...


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## red-beard (Jan 10, 2016)

warreng5995 said:


> Yes, I know it will do that if the 'old' batteries have some age.
> 
> I'm not talking about 6 months to a year later.
> 
> ...


Look at most of the battery life charts. The deeper you discharge, the shorter the life. And life is rated in discharge-charge cycles. If you charge/discharge twice per day, you hit a double cycle. Also, if you charge and discharge different depths of discharge in those cycles, you need to take that into account for life. 

There are newer battery technologies out there that nearly double the cycle life. And typically they cost only about 20-30% more. These are advanced lead acid batteries. If you are discharging to 80% DOD, get standard lead acid batteries. 

I've written a bunch of white papers on battery tech these days.


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## red-beard (Jan 10, 2016)

On Grid-Tie vs Off-Grid solar panels



TnAndy said:


> The only difference is the voltage. Using an MPPT controller, it really doesn't matter.
> 
> Grid tie systems generally use LONG strings of panels, because most central grid tie inverters won't even 'fire up' until you get enough sun on the panels that the voltage hits in the mid 200v range.....so they would use a string (wired in series) of, say, 15-20 of those 29v panels to produce a normal max voltage in the 400-500v+ range.
> 
> ...


Grid-Tie systems are usually well over 300VDC because the solar panels are strung in series. This means the solar panels are rated for these voltages, usually up to 600VDC. Some are rated to 1000VDC.

Off-Grid systems using PWM are usually rated for the voltage of the batteries. MPPT controllers are much better and allow for a smaller array for the same energy produced. 

Be very careful with the voltage ratings. Midnite Solar has a very good web application to calculate how much power and what voltages (strings in series) you can run. Usually, with a 150VDC charge controller, you should limit the combination of OC series voltage to around 130VDC. Read up on HyperVOC. 

Also, the reason a 48VDC battery bank is better is that the charge controllers are limited by current. A Midnite Classic 150 can handle almost 5000 Watts with a 48VDC battery bank. But it can handle on 2500 Watts at 24 VDC.


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## red-beard (Jan 10, 2016)

JeepHammer said:


> It's been my experence that you need to focus on three things with an inverter,
> 
> Since an inverter is MOST EFFICIENT at its highest CONTINOUS output,
> The inverter can waste energy when its LIGHTLY LOADED.
> ...


Most of the inverters these days have a very low power mode if there is no load on the system. They send a pulse out once a second to check if a load is switched on.

Also, inverters are pretty efficient at part loads. The parasitic loads are pretty well fixed. They can add up. On Off-Shore platforms, I try to put the controls and switching on the DC side of the inverter, to reduce the losses.

But compared to a generator, the parasitic losses on an inverter are minimal.


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