# help finding replacement engine



## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i need a replacement engine for my early 1980's troybilt pony. it has a horizontal shaft 5 hp with PTO for reverse. not every site i visit shows good pics or lists with PTO. 

i know enough to search this and that site...ebay etc., but if anyone has any specific info or links to someone to ask, please pass them on.

thanks.


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## Wis Bang (Feb 20, 2009)

Take the information on the engine spec plate to a local supplier. Any small engine w/ a 2nd shaft built in might be special. It is built in, right?

If it is a bolt on reduction/reversing unit it could be re-used w/ another engine.

If it IS built in the original manufacturer could supply a 'short' block. This might be the only option if it is a 'one off' unit. and a short block would be cheaper than a 'long block' as it isn't just a 'bolt on' option, you need to re-use all your external parts like the flywheel, ignition, governour, carb and tins. If you can do the swap over work a short block is a good way to re-power a reliable unit in otherwise good shape.

I have a pony that was my dad's and I remember just a normal Tecumsah horozontal shaft engine...


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

I have a 1980 5HP pony. Does your model have a PTO shaft that comes directly out of the engine? Mine does not.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

mine does. it powers the reverse.


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## Caz (Jun 29, 2002)

Have you tried Small Engine Warehouse? I think they list engines replacement by what they fit. John


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i was told by a rep at www.jackssmallengines.com that briggs no longer sells a replacement for this model engine. jacks has one similar, but the shaft is 1/4 inch too short. some may be longer and i assume the shaft could be cut down, but my concern is for the placement of the PTO. it kinda needs to be where it is now so that the reversing mechanism can work. i have searched several engine suppliers and few that have any in this general size give pictures of the crank side. i mean really, who cares what the non-business end looks like. (grumble)

i could get by with a single shaft or non-PTO engine, but if i am to spend $250-$400, i'd like to have reverse. i really don't want to go with a used engine, i spent $160 for one last year and i made it through the garden once. i think the flywheel slipped on the shaft when i assume the starter mechanism locked up. it squealed like a pig and then wouldn't start again. i think it is out of time. i just got disgusted then and used the spade the rest of the summer. i really didn't have the $$$ to spend to fix it, even if it was just replacing the starter...thing. on top of that, the gas tank looks like it was from something different and has an "extra" screw hole in the top and leaks gas...weird.

i just want to bolt on a new engine, hook up a few lines, linkage and belts and till. i would consider rebuilding the original, but i got hung up removing the pulley from the PTO assembly when i tried. it has been so long, i forget why i even needed to as the whole assembly comes off. i really can't be screwing around for weeks to rebuild an engine, i need a tiller...like last month. i should have bought a replacement last year when i found one instead of opting to save $100 by getting a used one.

i swear, nothing i ever need to do is ever as easy as just spending a few dollars. everything has to be a major PITA.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Yiikes! I was thinking I had a single shaft coming out, into a fwd/rev drive. I have the same setup as your's. Glad mine is running. 

Here are some setups that "may" work. http://www.tulsaenginewarehouse.com/catalog/troy.html


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i think i have dealt with them before. i think i bought a replacement for my MTD riding mower from them.

i thought i had found the solution when i saw the "12 step" modification and installation procedure for troybilt pony tillers. then i noticed that they say it will generally not work for 1989 or earlier models.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

These folks claim this engine will directly replace yours when using the spacers and provided fasteners. Scroll down to see the crank side pic.
http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/product.asp?PN=123435-PTO


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

MELOC said:


> i think i have dealt with them before. i think i bought a replacement for my MTD riding mower from them.
> 
> i thought i had found the solution when i saw the "12 step" modification and installation procedure for troybilt pony tillers. then i noticed that they say it will generally not work for 1989 or earlier models.


Good thing you started this thread. I did not look that closely and was just thinking the Pony, just needed any old 5HP replacement, needing only to look at main shaft height, shaft size and mounting holes.

Maybe I'll get one of the replacement engines, wrap it good in plastic and hide it in the garage attic, for later years. 

Thanks


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

agmantoo said:


> These folks claim this engine will directly replace yours when using the spacers and provided fasteners. Scroll down to see the crank side pic.
> http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/product.asp?PN=123435-PTO


maybe, and i will probably call them, but mine is a recoil start. i would need to add a battery and a switch...somewhere.


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## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Try Northern Hrydrulics. They at one time sold replacement engines for troy built tillers.

 Al


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

I would suggest two things on your old engine. Most likely you need new flywheel shaft key. Blister pack of half dozen probably like $1.50. You do have to remove flywheel to replace it. Squealing also can be recoil rope mechanism clutch gunked/locked up. I've taken apart enough of the old Briggs and Tecumseh vertical shaft lawn mower engines with that problem. Take apart the mechanism, clean it, oil it with heavy oil or light grease, reassemble. 

As to new engine these folks posting above seem to have found you a possibility. If you want cheap new engine, Harbor Freight (and many other places including ebay) sell chinese clone of Honda. I have Harbor Freight retail store in my area. In circulars they regularly have the 5.5hp engine on sale for $100 and the 6.5hp engine on sale for $120. They also have cheap 11hp and 13hp versions. Wont have pto shaft but it seems fairly decent engine. I put one on an old front tine tiller, starts with two pulls and runs smooth/quiet just like a Honda. I noticed sheet metal not Honda standards but being a quarter the price of a Honda and cheapest new engine by far, worth gamble. Just another possibility if you can live without reverse.

I am fan of Japanese small engines. Hard to beat a Honda or Robin. But especially on something like tiller that doesnt get lot hours put on it, the clone seems like way to go. No idea if they have Honda longevity, but as smooth as one I have runs, imagine it would at least match life of old American style flathead.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i haven't had good luck with cleaning and lubing the starter recoil assembly in the past. the one on the original motor squealed from time to time and got worse. i cleaned it several times. it is the unit with larger ball bearings. matter of fact, it seemed that when i lubed it, the balls would stick a little worse than if i had left it dry. that is the engine that is pictured and it ended up with a broken rod cracking the case.

the $160 used replacement began squealing after about 2 hours of use. it locked up the engine and spun the flywheel on the shaft. i know i can pull it and replace the key. i also have that issue with leaking gas from whatever the deal is with the "extra" hole on top of the gas tank happens to be. as the used engine i bought has lots of hours on it, i hesitate to spend much more money on it right now and have it blow after another two hours of use. it could use torn down and rebuilt as i think it could use some valve work.

like i said, i really wish to just swap out the engine if i can find one and if anything happens, i will spend my time fighting with a supplier instead of busting my knuckles.


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## Wis Bang (Feb 20, 2009)

Did you save the old engine? Between the two you should be able to make one running engine...

Depending on the case damage, consider having the block welded. I've had several B & S and Tecumsah blocks welded when the rod damage only pushed out the side and didn't blow out a big hole. 

A new con rod is cheap. A new rod, piston & rings isn't all that much more though making a good engine from two is the cheapest way to go.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i think the used replacement i put on is a tecumseh and the original is a briggs.

i just got an e-mail from tulsa...they have no replacement (i could have told them that) and they also have no short block. i was hoping their "engineers" had devised a replacement work-around for my model like they did for the post-1989 pony tillers.

yeah...i can rebuild either of the two i have...really not into it and time is short again. it's always time or money isn't it? i just got back to work 2 months ago and finally have a few dollars to play with and now have no time. 

it's hard to believe that no one sells a replacement engine for a design that worked well for 25 flippin' years.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

www.smallenginewarehouse.com may have what i need. recoil start...conversion spacers and longer drive belt. they claim that a shorter reversing belt is not needed...i guess if i order it i will find out, lol. the throttle control will be fun to modify...


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Meloc
Regarding the gas coming from the hole. I would think that is a vent. Maybe years ago it had a small rubber plug in the hole. JB Weld the hole shut, remove the gas filler cap and drill a small 1/16th inch hole under the gasket in the cap to function as a vent. Fix the sheared key in the flywheel and remove the recoil starter and install a simple rope wind up pulley to crank with. Problems should be eliminated IMO.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i thought about a vent hole, but the gas cap appears to be vented. 

i forget how much the recoil starter (thing with the balls) costs, but i hate to dump money into this thing little by little and constantly have problems. i didn't get to run it long enough to see how it will hold up long term. i suspect it will need a valve job in due time. i will end up spending as much time working on the dang thing than i will in the garden. the plan was to break new ground in several areas as i have 4 types of corn i want to put out this year as well as several types of squash and beans. i need to keep some of it seperated, so i need to bust into new ground. plus, i still need to replace a clutch on my VW Jetta, fix my F-100 pick-up (ignition...wiring...something mysterious i posted about months ago), replace the starter and battery on the riding mower and put the deck back on. then i can start work on a cold/hot broken window, collapsed kitchen ceiling, 3 failing/failed chimneys, crumbling foundation and water issues...you get the idea.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

MELOC, I am promoting doing away with the recoil starter and using a simple manual start crank pulley somewhat like this one. You will have to copy and paste to get this to show.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ALLIS-CHALMERS-B10-PART-PULLEY-ROPE-STARTER_W0QQitemZ250406750560QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item250406750560&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

not a bad idea.


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## catahoula (Dec 14, 2005)

We have the same tiller, it broke it's con rod so we sent it off to a repair shop. Ran great for about a half hour then made a noise and died, I took it apart and found the con rod had unbolted itself, put it back together started fine but had no power. Took it apart replaced the piston and honed the cylinder, replaced the head gasket, started fine, no power. Took it apart replaced and seated new valves, started fine, no power. Passes compression test. Took off and rebuilt the carb started fine, no power. By this time I can reduce the engine to a box of parts and put it back together in under an hour.

Parts replaced: Con rod, spark plug, piston and rings, gaskets all of them, seals all of them, valves, carb needle. 

Finally I'd had it, I went to order a replacement engine for it only to find, as you well know, they don't make a bolt on replacement engine for a tiller that has excelled for 25 years. So I ordered a new carb, it's the only thing that hasn't been replaced, if this doesn't work I am going to shoot the tiller, and drink some beer. 

Long story short, I feel your pain.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

catahoula
A clogged fuel filter or a clogged outlet on the fuel tank will give the same symptoms you described. Check on those while you wait for the carb to arrive. Also check to see that the throttle linkage is moving the throttle wide open.


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## Wis Bang (Feb 20, 2009)

agmantoo said:


> catahoula
> A clogged fuel filter or a clogged outlet on the fuel tank will give the same symptoms you described. Check on those while you wait for the carb to arrive. Also check to see that the throttle linkage is moving the throttle wide open.


During all that dis-asembly & re-asembly you may have hooked the govenour up incorrectly...


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## Wis Bang (Feb 20, 2009)

MELOC said:


> i think the used replacement i put on is a tecumseh and the original is a briggs.
> 
> i just got an e-mail from tulsa...they have no replacement (i could have told them that) and they also have no short block. i was hoping their "engineers" had devised a replacement work-around for my model like they did for the post-1989 pony tillers.
> 
> ...


Double check w/ B&S maybe they have old stock -or- a short block that could be used w/ the sideplate from your old engine. Is the reverser powered or just mounted on the side case? Could you morph your side case onto a shortblock w/ the correct length crankshaft? It's hard to tell from the picture.


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## HermitJohn (May 10, 2002)

Again how important is reverse? On some tillers expecially really heavy ones can see it being important as they can be hard to turn around otherwise, on others just an extra option. Could make a little plywood dolly for whole tiller maybe out of swivel off old swivel rocker chair. At end of row power tiller up on dolly, swivel and go back the other direction.

Its not hard finding a good normal 5 to 6hp engine without the pto shaft. Rather than "shoot" the tiller or throw it away, I'd try living without reverse. I know nothing about the "pony", have some experience with the older "horse" with 7 or 8hp engine and dont think they had a pto shaft on engine but dont really remember, its been long time ago.

As agmantoo suggests you could convert old engine to manual rope pull though be honest I have owned some engines set up from factory like that and unless its an easy quick starting engine, you will "shoot" it out of frustration. First Gravely I owned used a leather strap you wrapped around and pulled. Those old Gravelies werent an easy starting engine. They made an add on electric start, but when I was still using that original Gravely engine, I got an old electric motor had laying around and junk belt and just held it tight enough for motor to turn over the engine and immediately let off the tension when the thing started. Hey not much different than the combination belt driven generator/starter that lawn tractors used in the 60s. You do what you have to do.

I had and guess still have though havent used it in years an ancient all cast iron B/S 16hp engine with wind it yourself rope start. If I ever have need of it again I will adapt an automobile flywheel and starter to it off some small car. Such a starter should last forever and be cheaper than factory electric starter. Automatic rewind rope starters on small engines were a big improvement. By way when lubing the B/S rope pull clutch with the balls, you have to take it completely apart and clean balls and the grooves they fit in, with wire brush if necessary, then lube it. They have to move freely. If they can move freely, no problem. And lube the rope pull mechanism in the sheet metal housing.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I've got the same problem with my Ariens tiller. The engine shakes it's self loose and its an annoying to start and run senior citizen anyhow. I was planning to bolt on a Chonda type 6.5 hp and live withour reverse (hey I'm not little, I can drag it whereever...( but then I thought I wonder if I hooked up a small starter motor to electrically power it in reverse. It's just a belt drive.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

MELOC said:


> www.smallenginewarehouse.com may have what i need. recoil start...conversion spacers and longer drive belt. they claim that a shorter reversing belt is not needed...i guess if i order it i will find out, lol. the throttle control will be fun to modify...


Looks like a great find! Electric start to boot. My Pony has the B&S electric start, but it turns over very slow.

It looks like the Pony remote throttle will easily hook up to this engne. Look on page 14.

http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/images/manuals/INTEK.pdf

You could end up with a new tiller!


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## catahoula (Dec 14, 2005)

agmantoo said:


> catahoula
> A clogged fuel filter or a clogged outlet on the fuel tank will give the same symptoms you described. Check on those while you wait for the carb to arrive. Also check to see that the throttle linkage is moving the throttle wide open.


checked, rechecked, then checked again. Yep, throttle is hooked up correct. Checked the air filter too.


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## catahoula (Dec 14, 2005)

Wis Bang said:


> During all that dis-asembly & re-asembly you may have hooked the govenour up incorrectly...


Nope. I did think of that actually, took it apart and put it back together, no joy. Then I thought maybe I didn't have the timing notches lined up correctly so I took it apart and put it back together, no joy. 

I contemplated pulling the governor out and letting it self destruct, but that didn't seem productive.


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## catahoula (Dec 14, 2005)

Wis Bang said:


> Double check w/ B&S maybe they have old stock -or- a short block that could be used w/ the sideplate from your old engine. Is the reverser powered or just mounted on the side case? Could you morph your side case onto a shortblock w/ the correct length crankshaft? It's hard to tell from the picture.


The pulley for reverse is always spinning, you pull a lever that tightens a belt on the pulley for reverse.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i would check the compression and the timing of your engine, catahoula. someone here once posted a good tutorial of 4 cycle valve timing. if it is running, it should have power if it has compression. do you think it is not getting enough fuel, or could it be losing compression somehow?

as to my engines...i ran the original for several years without the reverse belt. yeah, it does a good job without reverse, but when you till up to the edge of a fence or an overgrown black raspberry/honeysuckle bramble, it is nice to have reverse. it is also nice to have reverse when you skip overtop of a burdock root and need to go back over it without tilling the whole row again. if i put any amount of money into repairing one of the old engines, it will have reverse. i would certainly not spend a few hundred on an engine that didn't have the reversing PTO.

i guess i'll figure it out sometime.


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## catahoula (Dec 14, 2005)

In the first series of tear downs I used a shop manual, followed the procedures to the "T" (whatever that means). Even had a few moments where I thought I might have done something wrong either with the timing or the governor, but lets face it these are pretty simple engines (he says after the fiftieth tear down). I thought maybe the head was warped but I'm getting good compression (and I should with new valves, rings and head gasket). When I was on the hunt for a new engine, I talked to the guy at Jacks, told him what I had done and what my symptoms were. He said that if fuel sits in the carbs too long they will varnish up to the point where only an ultrasonic cleaning would sort them out. Basically saying that the engine will get enough fuel to run, and it does, it howls at fuel throttle like a scalded ape, but once it get a load on it, it flames out and dies. The price of a new carb versus the price of the cleaning was pretty much a wash after it was all said and done so I ordered the carb. Time has been a factor too, I just don't want to wait for it to be cleaned. I've been at this tiller for two or three years now, I would really like to re- retire the wheel hoe, just like you would like to retire the spade. 

Reverse is really nice to have I agree but you have to be on your toes or you will till them up, not a job for sandals.


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