# Vaccines safe?



## BlackFeather

Found this article, what do you think?

http://www.naturalnews.com/046535_mmr_vaccines_autism_cdc_whistleblower.html


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## supernovae

Yes they are safe. They have saved millions if not billions of lives. Nothing is safe absolutely. There are people with allergies to the oddest things and some people may have such a disrupted nervous system that they can't handle vaccinations, but those people are so few and far between that statistically speaking its safer to vaccinate than it is to not.


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## MO_cows

That overly-dramatized article made my BS detector go off. I find it hard to believe a whistleblower from the CDC would use that particular web site to make their big reveal, and not a major news outlet. 

People have been trying to link vaccinations to autism and other problems for years, but nobody yet has found a smoking gun. So I think it is part paranoia, partly a myth promoted by those who benefit from it. Millions upon millions have been vaccinated, there is much more benefit than risk of harm. 

It does seem peculiar how much more autism there is now than there used to be, but if it were truly caused by vaccines, there would be even more. More research is needed and less quack science.


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## Evons hubby

I am in the "vaccines are a lot safer than not getting them" crowd. For every one bad reaction thousands are saved from debilitating disease and or death.


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## PrettyPaisley

Anytime you post anything from Natural News you will get push back.  
There is lots and lots and lots and lots of info out there about the danger of vaccines. People buy into their safety for many reasons. 

What tickles me, though, is that it's usually the ones who have done their own research that come to a different conclusion. You're more likely to buy into the safety if you've been indoctrinated in college, or by super smart scientists, or even better, super duper smart (and sexy and usually bearing gifts) pharma reps. And, to be fair, if you've seen little ones suffer or die from what is considered a "vaccine preventable disease". That one I get. There are plenty who have great, though misguided, intentions. 

The rest of us are just ignorant heretics who are unable to form a lucid thought and fall for the drivel of celebrities like Jenny McCarthy. So go ahead and get your vaccines like a good boy. And you can have mine, too.


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## where I want to

I got vaccines for a number of dangerous diseases and didn't get any of them. I did not get vaccines for some diseases and did get them. The diseases I got almost killed me at age 5. Fact. 
Looking at biased websites with skewed agendas is not research. No matter how often it gets repeated.


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## arabian knight

Yes vaccines are safe and have proven them-self safe for many years now saving countless of peoples lives, and completely taking care of some diseases all together that have decimated many people beforehand.
There are so many anti vaccine places on the net that just are so far out of this world on information, and so one sided, they can only be taken with a grain of salt at best.


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## haley1

The government says they are completely safe, you can trust them


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## MoonRiver

I don't think it is a safe, not safe question. It is more of a risk question. 

I try to avoid drugs, hospitals, and vaccines as much as I can based on concept of risk/reward. For example, getting my vitamin d high in range is a lot safer than a flu shot, so I supplement with D3 and skip the flu shot.

Examine options and side effects and all vaccines are not created equal. Try to find out what is in the vaccine. Sometimes there might be similar vaccines from different companies with slightly different ingredients and different side effects. Plus different manufacturing plants may be very different in quality control.


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## arabian knight

haley1 said:


> The government says they are completely safe, you can trust them


 The government has nothing to do with it. The track record about drugs speaks well for itself in the way countless of lives have been saved. Sure a few have had bad reactions but the good they do is way out in front.
Heck I have a reaction my self to a drug not a vaccine, but a strong RA drug nearly killed me as both kidneys shut down as well as the liver. 
But that doesn't stop me from taking other drugs to make my life and way of life for the better.


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## plowjockey

PrettyPaisley said:


> The rest of us are just ignorant heretics who are unable to form a lucid thought and fall for the drivel of celebrities like Jenny McCarthy. So go ahead and get your vaccines like a good boy. And you can have mine, too.


Jenny McCarthy thinks vaccines cause autism.

She's on your team.


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## Molly Mckee

I'm sure your children will be happy to know that you got medical advice from Jenny McCarthy- and not people that studied science and medicine for years. Maybe the Kardashians could give you medical advice as well.

I hope you don't have to explain why you chose the people to believe you did and why, after you lose a child or have one that has ongoing serious problems from a disease that you could have prevented by vaccinating.

There is no question that vaccinating is much safer than not vaccinating.


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## watcher

You'd first have to define safe. If you say safe means no one get hurts by them then of course vaccines are not safe. Any one with an IQ above the moron level can see that. But. . . 

Using that logic is riding in a car safe? Of course not thousands of people are killed or crippled for life by cars every year. So do you allow your child to ride in a car? If so you must clearly have drank the "big auto" kool-aid!


If you say safe is where the risk of individual injury is extremely small then study after study after study has shown vaccines are safe. 

If you say safe is when the risk of individual injury is VASTLY outweighed by the benefit to both the individual and the whole then common sense tells you vaccines are safe.


For everyone who refuses to vaccine their child its your choice but I suggest before you rule them out completely you watch a infant choke to death due to whooping cough. Or watch someone who has lived through polio struggle daily. Or help care for one who suffered brain damage due to a high fever from measles. Or better yet take a few months and travel to a few nations where there are nation wide vaccine programs.


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## PrettyPaisley

plowjockey said:


> Jenny McCarthy thinks vaccines cause autism.
> 
> She's on your team.



No! Really ?????


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## haypoint

For awhile. Avoiding vaccinations works for awhile. When 99% of the population get vaccinated, that disease is almost unheard of and even the 1% are safe. They ride on the protection of others.
Still fairly safe when 80% get vaccinated. But lets switch the table on PP, and see what this country would look like if no one was vaccinated. What happens then. The protective shield the vaccinated population provides wouldn't be there. 
Do we really have to experience a pandemic for these people to wake up? Can't they look around? 
PP's unvaccinated dog is safer than the people of most third world countries where 40,000 humans die from rabies each year. While some bats and some skunks carry rabies, human deaths are rare in this country due to the strict laws requiring dogs get their rabies vaccinations. Vaccinations make diseases rare.
What if the highly contagious PEDv had effected humans like it did pigs. Perhaps we'd have 8 million dead children. Would you vaccinate then?


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## TRellis

PrettyPaisley said:


> The rest of us are just ignorant heretics who are unable to form a lucid thought and fall for the drivel of *celebrities like Jenny McCarthy*.



Wait a minute!!! Jenny McCarthy is a celebrity!?!?!? Since when!?!?!? Why!?!?!? Because she posed nude a few times for Playboy!?!?!? :umno:

Though if true, the celebrity bar has been severely lowered!!! 

And I guess if the bar is that low it explains why some think of the Kardashians as celebrities. :yuck:

TRellis


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## PrettyPaisley

Do not assume you know anything about my dog. 

And no-you can throw out all the "your baby is gonna die" you like. I still would not vaccinate. Your beloved herd immunity is a myth. 

http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/the-herd-immunity-myth-and-how-it-pits-parent-against-parent/ (<---warning --- real food blogger who eats a traditional diet and skips McDonald's and conventional medicine because, well gosh, her family is healthy.) 

Now explain to me why we hear time and time again, about children coming down with these dreaded VCDs being vaccinated? Let me guess. The unvaccinated are carrying around these dreaded diseases -with zero symptoms (but often natural immunity that is checked by titers)- and slobbering all over you enlightened, fully vaccinated folks ? Or is that just slobbering on the buggies at Walmart and the germs are jumping over your vaccinated immune systems and right down your pant leg?


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## Molly Mckee

Pretty Paisley please explain how your education and experience give you the knowledge to try to influence others not to vaccinate their children. Repeating other peoples' feelings from the internet is not scientific nor does it have any real relevance to the question of vaccinating being better than not vaccinating. Neither do your feelings unless you can back them up with proven facts. Do what you want with your kids, but IMO it is very wrong for you (or anyone) to try to influence others when you have no proven facts or the knowledge or experience to even understand the things they don't agree with. 

If I were you I would not want a child's death or handicap on my conscience. I had polio as a child, right before the vaccine came out, as did my brothers. We have all suffered all our lives in various ways. My parents did not have the choice to vaccinate us, you are making the choice not to. There are more people all the time that are not vaccinated and sooner or later some of them will come in contact with some of these diseases, especially since there are a lot of undocumented people coming into the country unchecked. I hope for your children's sake they are not some of the children that get something you could have prevented.


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## haypoint

PrettyPaisley said:


> Do not assume you know anything about my dog.
> 
> And no-you can throw out all the "your baby is gonna die" you like. I still would not vaccinate. Your beloved herd immunity is a myth.
> 
> http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/the-herd-immunity-myth-and-how-it-pits-parent-against-parent/ (<---warning --- real food blogger who eats a traditional diet and skips McDonald's and conventional medicine because, well gosh, her family is healthy.)
> 
> Now explain to me why we hear time and time again, about children coming down with these dreaded VCDs being vaccinated? Let me guess. The unvaccinated are carrying around these dreaded diseases -with zero symptoms (but often natural immunity that is checked by titers)- and slobbering all over you enlightened, fully vaccinated folks ? Or is that just slobbering on the buggies at Walmart and the germs are jumping over your vaccinated immune systems and right down your pant leg?


I know your dog has not been vaccinated against rabies. I do not know what VCD might mean.
I know plenty of people that eat healthy and are sickly and plenty of people that eat junk and are healthy.
What do you believe caused this country to get small pox and polio and rabies under control while other countries lose hundreds to diseases that could be prevented by vaccines? If you were offered a high paying job helping to teach an African village how to grow healthy food, would you shun vaccinations? If you took your child, would you vaccinate her?
Know anyone that wasn't vaccinated for Shingles and went through that painful experience?
A disease isn't going to rage through a community when most of the population has antibodies to fight it off without getting sick. The spread of the disease is prevented by those that were immune to the disease through vaccinations. 
Recently, an Amish group did some missionary work in the Philippines. They contracted Measles. When they returned to Ohio, it spread throughout their community. Only through strict quarantines were they able to stem the spread of this now uncommon disease.
When I was growing up, Chicken Pox was treated by herd immunity. Intentional exposure of children. Better to be exposed as a child than an adult. But I doubt you'd find much acceptance to do that with Whooping Cough or Polio or HPV.:runforhills:


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## PrettyPaisley

You are incorrect. You do *not* know the vaccine status of my dogs. You make obnoxious assumptions and you are certain you are correct - but you are not.


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## where I want to

The bottom line on this deliberately retread post is that vaccinations prevent diseases that kill and maim. The harm done by not vaccinatingn is much, much worse for the majority of people than any harm from vaccination.
Those of us who are old enough to have seen common epidemics and lived with their results know- not theorize, but know- most vaccinations are a thin line between most children and disease.
It is neccessary for those who know to point out to those who don't what they don't know before their ignorance creates a disaster for all. And, since it's life and death literally, in no uncertain terms.


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## haypoint

PrettyPaisley said:


> You are incorrect. You do *not* know the vaccine status of my dogs. You make obnoxious assumptions and you are certain you are correct - but you are not.


Obnoxious? :huh:
OK, I don't have proof your dog isn't up to date on his vaccinations. Sorry for the assumption. I guess the only at-risk person is you after handling that sick/injured raccoon your dog killed, a few months ago. Well, it must not have had distemper or rabies, because you'd know by now.:angel:
But is that all you have? You going to ignore the rest?:catfight:


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## Terri in WV

PrettyPaisley said:


> You are incorrect. You do *not* know the vaccine status of my dogs.


Okay, a question. So, you're implying that your dog is vaccinated?

If your dog is, isn't that going against your beliefs about vaccines?

Not trying to stir up anything, just trying to understand.


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## PrettyPaisley

haypoint said:


> I know your dog has not been vaccinated against rabies. I do not know what VCD might mean.
> I know plenty of people that eat healthy and are sickly and plenty of people that eat junk and are healthy.
> What do you believe caused this country to get small pox and polio and rabies under control while other countries lose hundreds to diseases that could be prevented by vaccines? If you were offered a high paying job helping to teach an African village how to grow healthy food, would you shun vaccinations? If you took your child, would you vaccinate her?
> Know anyone that wasn't vaccinated for Shingles and went through that painful experience?
> A disease isn't going to rage through a community when most of the population has antibodies to fight it off without getting sick. The spread of the disease is prevented by those that were immune to the disease through vaccinations.
> Recently, an Amish group did some missionary work in the Philippines. They contracted Measles. When they returned to Ohio, it spread throughout their community. Only through strict quarantines were they able to stem the spread of this now uncommon disease.
> When I was growing up, Chicken Pox was treated by herd immunity. Intentional exposure of children. Better to be exposed as a child than an adult. But I doubt you'd find much acceptance to do that with Whooping Cough or Polio or HPV.:runforhills:



Yes-I know plenty of folks who've had shingles and never been vaccinated for it. My later father is one of the them. But explain to me why *now* shingles is an epidemic. A new epidemic when in years prior the number of cases were nothing compared to what they are now. 

http://www.thelibertybeacon.com/2013/03/06/shingles-goes-epidemic-chicken-pox-vax-to-blame/

There isn't enough money in the world to get me to go to Africa - for anything. But hey, why don't you grab a quick ebola vaccine and head on out? 

While a quick search brought up plenty of information about Amish people being infected with measles simply because they were not vaccinated, I'll go along with the thought process that because they are mostly segregated from the population as a whole, they had no natural immunity to the disease. Consider the indigenous tribe in places like the Amazon being wiped out from the common cold because their bodies were never exposed, thus they never developed natural immunity, hardly because they were never vaccinated. And how many Amish are dead because of contracting measles? Childhood diseases are called that for a reason. Contract them in childhood, you have life long immunity. 

On that note-"herd immunity" is NOT a treatment. Chicken pox was passed around between children so they would have lifelong, natural immunity. Chicken pox is very rarely deadly and in those who succumb there are underlying health issues that have nothing to do with chicken pox. Trust me - while I would never be so stupid as to post the lengths I went to to ensure my kids were exposed to chicken pox - there are plenty of folks who know that chicken pox in childhood is a blessing and work hard to get their kids exposed in the natural way. Sounds like you're one of them.

I've known women who's babies contracted pertussis long before they were old enough to be "fully vaccinated". They lived. There was discomfort all the way around, but there are reasons behind childhood diseases - _beneficial ones_. 

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2...ontracting-measles-by-dr-viera-scheibner-phd/

Clearly there are plenty of people who prefer to march in lockstep with what they think as always worked. And I would have never resisted jacking my kids up on vaccines had they not tried the "your baby is going to die" crap on me before she exited my body. It's like the abortion debate; the pro-choice folks would get a heck of a lot further if they would just admit that abortions kill babies. The pro-vaccine folks would not have to sling mud if they would just admit that vaccines are dangerous and the kill children. And the anti-vaxers would most likely tolerate a jab here and there if it were not so darn clear that there is a HUGE amount of money being made by drug companies as they manufacture fear over something as simple as the freaking chicken pox. 

This gets real about at 2:30. You can see the poor little doctor get his knickers in a knot when he's called out for not knowing the facts. The facts that many folks are oblivious to. 

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2011/11/17/smoke-mirrors-and-the-disappearance-of-polio/


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## PrettyPaisley

haypoint said:


> Obnoxious? :huh:
> OK, I don't have proof your dog isn't up to date on his vaccinations. Sorry for the assumption. I guess the only at-risk person is you after handling that sick/injured raccoon your dog killed, a few months ago. Well, it must not have had distemper or rabies, because you'd know by now.:angel:
> *But is that all you have?* You going to ignore the rest?:catfight:


At that moment in time, yes. That is all I had. I made the judgement call to shut you down before any further lies were spread and the gov't was knocking on my door for my dog. And then there is the whole "feed the small hungry children" part of my morning. So sorry my family obligations got in the way of your scrimmage.


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## where I want to

To question the efficacy or liability of a specific vaccine in reasonable terms is one thing. To condemn vaccinations wholesale is another. It just marching in lockstep to another, much more dangerous drummer.


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## PrettyPaisley

Hey-haypoint. So now I have to really start my day. I'll be milking goats and then headed to town for work. If I don't get back to you in a reasonable amount of time, just hang tight. I've also got a wood working class late this afternoon so you might need to nap, as I'll be up all night and ready to continue our :catfight:


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## PrettyPaisley

where I want to said:


> To question the efficacy or liability of a specific vaccine in reasonable terms is one thing. To condemn vaccinations wholesale is another. It just marching in lockstep to another, much more dangerous drummer.


Here is the thing about that. 

I know there are lots of folks who space the vaccines out and try to pick and choose. But the issue lies in standing for what you believe. These mommas KNOW they ignore their intuition and vaccinate out of fear, and they try to skip some (chicken pox comes to mind) but get flack from the doctors. 

In NC you have two options for opting out of vaccines; medical or religious. So the medical is covered. Your kid can't be vaccinated because he's too sick - you're exempt. But if you go with a religious exemption - by definition you can't pick and choose. So even if there were a vaccine I might feel was important - common sense tells me to skip it. If I don't understand how to build a healthy immune system naturally, I might think the Rotovirus vaccine is important-so I opt in for that one. But the gov't steps up and says "if you're religiously opposed to vaccines you can't take one and skip the other." 

Totally slippery slope. Do I worry about things like polio and meningitis? Of course I do. But between reminding myself that the risk of the vaccine is far greater than the risk of the disease AND that manufactured immunity does not work, yet compromises a healthy immune system - if I were to cave out of fear I would decimate my religious exemption in the eyes of the gov't. 

So there is little choice. Riding the fence on this one doesn't accomplish much. (But then I'm about certain that riding the fence isn't really the best way to live your life in all areas.)


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## PrettyPaisley

Terri in WV said:


> Okay, a question. So, you're implying that your dog is vaccinated?
> 
> If your dog is, isn't that going against your beliefs about vaccines?
> 
> Not trying to stir up anything, just trying to understand.



Absolutely. 

But I do NOT equate the dog with my children. For now, the gov't will not take my children from my home by force for not being vaccinated. They will take the dog. And you can have my dog if it comes to that. Rabid pro-vaccine folks would love to stand on their front porch in their Tweety pjs and point their fingers for the news crew and holler about an unvaccinated dog. I'd fight the laws for the sake of my kids. Not so much for the dog. But you can bet your cookies my goats aren't.


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## where I want to

PrettyPaisley said:


> Here is the thing about that.
> 
> I know there are lots of folks who space the vaccines out and try to pick and choose. But the issue lies in standing for what you believe. These mommas KNOW they ignore their intuition and vaccinate out of fear, and they try to skip some (chicken pox comes to mind) but get flack from the doctors.
> 
> In NC you have two options for opting out of vaccines; medical or religious. So the medical is covered. Your kid can't be vaccinated because he's too sick - you're exempt. But if you go with a religious exemption - by definition you can't pick and choose. So even if there were a vaccine I might feel was important - common sense tells me to skip it. If I don't understand how to build a healthy immune system naturally, I might think the Rotovirus vaccine is important-so I opt in for that one. But the gov't steps up and says "if you're religiously opposed to vaccines you can't take one and skip the other."
> 
> Totally slippery slope. Do I worry about things like polio and meningitis? Of course I do. But between reminding myself that the risk of the vaccine is far greater than the risk of the disease AND that manufactured immunity does not work, yet compromises a healthy immune system )


I agree it is a frustration to be ordered to have an ever increasing list of vaccinations. I expect though there are statistical studies supporting a mandatory vaccine versus an optional one. That the good of the vaccine is more than the liability.

Does the prohibition have to do with school attendance? Could you skip the vaccine if you home school? If so, the prohibition is against exposing others to the unvaccinated child others rather mandating all are vaccinated. Not unreasonable social contract.

The problem comes with the statement that the child is more at risk from the vaccination than the disease. I can't think that the chance of death and disability to get immunity caused by the disease is a gain at all. Maybe the vaccine immunity is shorter term but death or disabilty is life long. That is like saying that cutting a hand is a good thing because sometime in your life you may have an accident where you lose the hand.

If you could actually show statistically that more children die or are disabled due too vaccination than are killed or disabled in unvaccinated populations, that would be an argument. But you can not appropriate a disease like autism that has studies that show the same rates for vaccinated and unvaccinated to do it.


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## haypoint

I think you need to buy into the belief that the government has directed scientists to insert cancer spores into helpful vaccinations, spreading cancer into the population later in life.


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## supernovae

haypoint said:


> For awhile. Avoiding vaccinations works for awhile. When 99% of the population get vaccinated, that disease is almost unheard of and even the 1% are safe.


Not really. California anti-vaxxers have had recent HUGE problems with whooping cough. NO one is safe when you choose to not get vaccinated.

I worked with someone who didn't get polio vaccinations and has polio. I wouldn't wish polio on anyone.


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## supernovae

haypoint said:


> I think you need to buy into the belief that the government has directed scientists to insert cancer spores into helpful vaccinations, spreading cancer into the population later in life.


cancer spores?


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## Molly Mckee

The problem with PP's stance is that she does not have the education or knowledge to realize what she is promoting. If someone wants to preach IMO they should understand what they are preaching. Mother's intuition does not trump years of scientific investigation and statistics. Neither do feelings.

There are very many variables in our world today, that have changed in the last few generations. Just two of the things a pediatrician and geneticist I worked with was concerned about in the 70's were the gasses given off by catalytic converters that then mixed with rain or snow and formed acids and the chemicals the illegal drugs were often contaminated with. He felt both could do genetic damage, and those were just the tip of the iceberg. Things that are well studied for the harm as well as the benefit they can do are not as likely to cause problems for the vast majority of people.


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## Evons hubby

I have observed that most people who argue against vaccinations are too young to have any memories of life before vaccines became available.... hundreds of thousands died every year from things like small pox... which now, thanks to vaccines is virtually non existent. Ok, some governments may have some stashed away in their bio warfare bags, but other than that... its been wiped out! Polio used to disable millions around the globe.... you rarely hear of polio today .... Just to name a couple.


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## watcher

PrettyPaisley said:


> Do not assume you know anything about my dog.
> 
> And no-you can throw out all the "your baby is gonna die" you like. I still would not vaccinate. Your beloved herd immunity is a myth.


In the US the odds of it happening is small due to the fact that mass vaccination has made these diseases very uncommon. Would say the same if you had to take your baby to an area where polio or measles or rubella or any other easily preventable disease is still common?



PrettyPaisley said:


> http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/the-herd-immunity-myth-and-how-it-pits-parent-against-parent/ (<---warning --- real food blogger who eats a traditional diet and skips McDonald's and conventional medicine because, well gosh, her family is healthy.)


I have a major questions about the blog. What and where is her proof that "Natural immunity lasts a lifetime. . ."? AFAIK, this has never even been studied. Also her blanket assumption that all vaccines 'wear off' has never been proven. Again AFAIK there has never been a case where someone who received polio or small pox vac as a child was infected as an adult. Using the fact that some vaccines need to be 'boosted' to try to shoot down herd immunization is a stretch of logic. 




PrettyPaisley said:


> Now explain to me why we hear time and time again, about children coming down with these dreaded VCDs being vaccinated? Let me guess. The unvaccinated are carrying around these dreaded diseases -with zero symptoms (but often natural immunity that is checked by titers)- and slobbering all over you enlightened, fully vaccinated folks ? Or is that just slobbering on the buggies at Walmart and the germs are jumping over your vaccinated immune systems and right down your pant leg?


You are basing your medical care on anecdotal evidence. You are like a guy a knew who would not wear his seat belt. He had a relative who had survived a fiery wreck when he was thrown from the car which proved to him it was better to not wear on. It didn't matter how many facts he was shown nor how much data was provided he "knew" that it was better to not wear your seat belt.

As for you thinking herd immunity is a myth. Think about it logically. You have a city of 100,000 where 99% of the people have been immunized against measles. BTW, it doesn't matter if the immunity has to be boosted every year. Now someone comes into the city with measles what are the odds they will infect someone one? I'm not a statistician but seeing as how there are only 1,000 people in the entire city who could be infected I'd have to say the odds are very, very, very small. That means there wouldn't be an outbreak because it would burn out with patient zero.

But if only 50% of the population had been vaccinated there would be 50,000 people they could infect. To me that says the odds of transmitting measles is 50 times greater. Now you have two people with measles to transmit it to those other 49,999 people which means the odds of a third person catching it is even higher. After that you get the classic cascade effect.

Its a carrier bringing diseases like this into the US which is the danger. We not have millions of people living in the US who have crossed our boarder illegally. They have not had any medical test to determine if they are carrying any of these diseases. As I have pointed out in an area where the vast majority of people are vaccinated its not that much of a problem. In an area where the vaccination rate is low it would spread like wild fire.


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## watcher

where I want to said:


> The bottom line on this deliberately retread post is that vaccinations prevent diseases that kill and maim. The harm done by not vaccinatingn is much, much worse for the majority of people than any harm from vaccination.
> Those of us who are old enough to have seen common epidemics and lived with their results know- not theorize, but know- most vaccinations are a thin line between most children and disease.
> It is neccessary for those who know to point out to those who don't what they don't know before their ignorance creates a disaster for all. And, since it's life and death literally, in no uncertain terms.


Yep. Because of these vaccines there are very few of us alive who have ever seen a house with a sign like this:


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## Evons hubby

watcher said:


> Yep. Because of these vaccines there are very few of us alive who have ever seen a house with a sign like this:


Yeppers, or visited anyone dying in a TB sanatarium. 

For those who think they are not riding free on the backs of people who have been vaccinated.... think about the last time you heard of anyone dying from small pox. Why? because of vaccinations, enough people vaccinated for a long enough time and that disease was wiped out.... couldnt have happened with out vaccines.


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## JeffreyD

supernovae said:


> Not really. California anti-vaxxers have had recent HUGE problems with whooping cough. NO one is safe when you choose to not get vaccinated.
> 
> I worked with someone who didn't get polio vaccinations and has polio. I wouldn't wish polio on anyone.


Sorry, here in California, where I live, it's illegal aliens who are spreading whooping cough, not "anti-vaxxers". Get your facts straight and stop perpetuating lies.


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## supernovae

JeffreyD said:


> Sorry, here in California, where I live, it's illegal aliens who are spreading whooping cough, not "anti-vaxxers". Get your facts straight and stop perpetuating lies.


California is second to Wyoming in diseases as the direct result of anti vaccination movement and "illegals" are hardly the culprit.

Public schools require vaccination records for anyone enrolled, I haven't ran across many illegal aliens with the funds to send their kids to anti-vaxxer friendly private schools where whooping cough prevailed. (And the ones that had exceptions to immunization rules were generally in wealthy areas..)

Please do me a favor, post your apparent facts and also, please, show me how what i speak of is considered lies.


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## JeffreyD

supernovae said:


> California is second to Wyoming in diseases as the direct result of anti vaccination movement and "illegals" are hardly the culprit.
> 
> Public schools require vaccination records for anyone enrolled, I haven't ran across many illegal aliens with the funds to send their kids to anti-vaxxer friendly private schools where whooping cough prevailed. (And the ones that had exceptions to immunization rules were generally in wealthy areas..)
> 
> Please do me a favor, post your apparent facts and also, please, show me how what i speak of is considered lies.


Please post your sources of information for this increase in whooping cough being caused by anti vaxxers!


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## Evons hubby

JeffreyD said:


> Sorry, here in California, where I live, it's illegal aliens who are spreading whooping cough, not "anti-vaxxers". Get your facts straight and stop perpetuating lies.


Thats the funny thing about germs.... they dont discriminate... ANYONE is subject to any disease if they arent already vaccinated, either by artificial means or by having already contracted the disease. This includes little kids, adults of any race religion or ethnic background. Obviously unvaccinated illegals fall into that category, but so do anti vaxxers.


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## Evons hubby

PrettyPaisley said:


> But between reminding myself that the risk of the vaccine is far greater than the risk of the disease AND that manufactured immunity does not work, yet compromises a healthy immune system


I have to ask.... What vaccine is it that you think poses more risk... than the risk of the disease itself? Vaccines DO work, and I have never heard of a single one that compromises a healthy immune system. Someone somewhere has fed you quite a line of misinformation! I dont blame you for feeling the way you do, but you really do need to look someplace else for your health information. Do it for the sake of your kids. and hey, I dont even like kids, but they do deserve to be protected from dangerous (often fatal) diseases.


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## haypoint

Sounds like a train wreck.
Millions of people from third world countries, many infected with diseases almost unheard of in this country, spilling into California. While the "Anti-Vaccine" crowd grows by leaps and bounds, where? Yup, California.
Would I be wrong in assuming that most of those that shun vaccinations are doing it out of a mistaken belief of preserving their health? OK, let's take another step. Those same folks are drawn to fresh fruits and vegetables at a far greater degree than the general population. Seems reasonable. I wonder who is picking fruits and vegetables, loading and unloading the trucks in California? 
Suddenly, we have a group that is the least protected comingling with those most likely carrying diseases. :catfight:
I'm thinking of setting up bleachers and selling popcorn to watch this collision. :rock:


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## where I want to

JeffreyD said:


> Sorry, here in California, where I live, it's illegal aliens who are spreading whooping cough, not "anti-vaxxers". Get your facts straight and stop perpetuating lies.


In the town where my sister lives, it is a hot bed of anti vaccine parents. And they just had whooping cough sweep through. Hardly any illegals there. But then she lives in Washington.


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## Tiempo

Pretty Paisley, I'm curious..there are vaccines required to immigrate to the US legally, I had them when I immigrated.

Do you think that immigrants should be able to have them waived if they don't want them and still enter?


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## Oggie

We have decided to not have two of our children vaccinated against rabies.


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## haypoint

supernovae said:


> cancer spores?


PP posted this video:
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/specialty-forums/general-chat/521889-ebola-came-vaccines.html

Claims are made that harmful contaminates exist in all vaccines. It is claimed that there were cancer viruses in all polio vaccines. Cancer virus, cancer spores or cancer candy sprinkles. Matters not. Those that believe, believe.


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## haypoint

Oggie said:


> We have decided to not have two of our children vaccinated against rabies.


I go along with that choice. Rabies is unique in that you have a few weeks after being exposed to the rabies virus to get vaccinated. Just be sure that all animal bites are treated as a possible exposure. When possible have the animal's brain examined for rabies. When exposure to rabies is possible but not proven, get the shots.
I'd only recommend routine rabies vaccinations for Veterinarians and Animal Control Officers.


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## Oggie

We did get the three really hairy ones vaccinated.


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## haypoint

The Amish are a bit of a closed community. But they are around the general public on a daily basis. Measles might seem like a small thing for a child. But it is life threatening to an adult. Traditionally, Amish have large families, many children. The chances of a pregnant woman and resulting miscarriage are real.
http://www.whattoexpect.com/pregnancy/pregnancyhealth/complications/measles.aspx


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## haypoint

Oggie said:


> We did get the three really hairy ones vaccinated.


Good idea. Those hairy ones are least likely to let you know they chomped into a raccoon with a foamy grin. Or bit the face of a flying tail-less mouse.


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## Tiempo

haypoint said:


> I go along with that choice. Rabies is unique in that you have a few weeks after being exposed to the rabies virus to get vaccinated. Just be sure that all animal bites are treated as a possible exposure. When possible have the animal's brain examined for rabies. When exposure to rabies is possible but not proven, get the shots.
> I'd only recommend routine rabies vaccinations for Veterinarians and Animal Control Officers.


A god friend of mine, her husband and son had to get the post exposure shots about three years ago, there was a bat in her husband's shoe which bit him wen he went to put his shoe on..the bat tested positive for rabies..

The shots were phenomenally expensive, skipping them was not a good option.


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## haypoint

40 animals tested positive for rabies in Michigan, last year. All bats. Remember, while 40 is a small number, the number of bats tested is a small number, too. Many thousands of bats contract rabies.

Rabies is 99.9999999% fatal. If it means your life, I guess the $2,000 to $6,000 is worth it. But if you are anti-vaccines, you can go to Cedar Point instead.:nanner:


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## watcher

JeffreyD said:


> Sorry, here in California, where I live, it's illegal aliens who are spreading whooping cough, not "anti-vaxxers". Get your facts straight and stop perpetuating lies.


So the illegals have been vaccinated? Or are they giving it to kids who have been vaccinated? 

But you have hit on one of the flaws in the anti-vaccine stands. They think because these diseases are so rare they don't need to risk the vaccines. That only holds IF the number of people who are not carriers and the number of unvaccinated (i.e. vulnerable) is very, very small. Once you get an influx of carriers AND a number of available host you are going to run into problems.

As someone pointed out if a populace has no immunity against a disease that disease will explode if it is ever introduced.


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## watcher

haypoint said:


> PP posted this video:
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/specialty-forums/general-chat/521889-ebola-came-vaccines.html
> 
> Claims are made that harmful contaminates exist in all vaccines. It is claimed that there were cancer viruses in all polio vaccines. Cancer virus, cancer spores or cancer candy sprinkles. Matters not. Those that believe, believe.


I thought polio vaccine was being used to make poor people infertile. That's why "rich 1st world" nations are sending "aid workers" into 3rd world nations to vaccinate them.


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## sidepasser

Well here is what the CDC has to say:

http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/about/faqs.html

_Q: Doesn't herd immunity protect most people?
A: Herd immunity, or community immunity, is a situation in which, through vaccination or prior illness, a sufficient proportion of a population is immune to an infectious disease, making its spread from person to person unlikely. Even individuals not vaccinated (such as newborns and those with chronic illnesses) are typically protected because the disease has little opportunity to spread within their community. Since pertussis spreads so easily, vaccine protection decreases over time, and acellular pertussis vaccines may not prevent colonization, we can't rely on herd immunity to protect everyone.
Vaccines are the most effective tool we have to provide protection against pertussis. It's important that everyone get their recommended pertussis vaccines to protect themselves._

but here is something quite interesting:

_Q: I've heard about parents refusing to get their children vaccinated and travelers to the U.S. spreading disease; are they to blame for pertussis outbreaks?
A: Even though children who haven't received DTaP vaccines are at least 8 times more likely to get pertussis than children who received all 5 recommended doses of DTaP, they are not the driving force behind the large scale outbreaks or epidemics. However, their parents are putting them at greater risk of getting a serious pertussis infection and then possibly spreading it to other family or community members.
We often see people blaming pertussis outbreaks on people coming to the US from other countries. This is not the case. Pertussis was never eliminated from the US like measles or polio, so there's always the chance for it to get into a community. Plus, every country vaccinates against pertussis.
Learn more about pertussis in other countries._

but on the other hand there is this:

_During 2012, 48,277 cases of pertussis were reported to CDC, including 20 pertussis-related deaths. The majority of deaths occurred among infants younger than 3 months of age. The incidence rate of pertussis among infants exceeded that of all other age groups. The second highest rates of disease were observed in children 7 through 10 years old. Rates increased in adolescents 13 and 14 years of age._

http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/outbreaks/trends.html


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## haypoint

watcher said:


> I thought polio vaccine was being used to make poor people infertile. That's why "rich 1st world" nations are sending "aid workers" into 3rd world nations to vaccinate them.


Sure. and Chruch's chicken was intended to make Urban Black men sterile. All sorts of myths on the internet.

Here is some good reading if interested in vaccines:
http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/debunked-polio-vaccine-and-hiv-link


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## sidepasser

My thoughts are this:

I owned a farm where there was a family cemetery. The farm had been in the same family since 1795 until 1968. All family members were buried in my cemetery from 1795 through the very early 1900's.

There were so many babies in that cemetery and the way of things back then was to write what folks died of. I saw Typhus, the croup, pneumonia on several of the gravestones. Some people (not babies) died of a wasting disease.
I have to think that if moms back then had vaccines that could protect their children, they would have used them. Anything to cut down on the number of dead babies. Most died before their first birthday and several before the second birthday. 

I vaccinate because my mom lived during a time when polio was rampant, measles was feared and dreaded, and other child hood diseases that we scoff at now..she has the family bible..

several children died of measles or were left (not in their right mind). At one point it seems that the "croup" came through our family and took two babies with it.

I vaccinated my children and none had reactions. Oh they were puny for a day or so, but bounced right back. My children vaccinated their children. None had a reaction and yes, they were puny for a day or so, but bounced back.

In my family since vaccines were introduced we have had NO incidents of childhood preventable disease. My son was vaccinated for chicken pox before he went to college (it is required to gain entry). he was never sick a single day from the vaccine.

Point is: most childhood diseases are not prevalent because people vaccinate. If one ever goes to an older cemetary and looks at the causes of death, it will come home in a hurry that simple prevention would have been fought for had it been available to those parents.

I chose to take the chance and vaccinate and I had the peace of mind that my children and their children were protected against childhood diseases that kill. It's everyone's choice but I would hate to the be the one standing at a graveside because I didn't do the simplest of things to protect my children and grandchildren.

I also vaccinate my animals for all sorts of diseases. I had a dog die of distemper once..not something I ever want to go through again - it was a rescue and it was pitiful. My dog is an indoor dog, only goes outside on a leash..she has rabies and every other type of vaccination. If she ever gets loose, I would rather her be protected. 

Horse - oh Lord yes, vaccinations for her due to all the horses coming and going at shows, trail rides, etc. Horses travel long distances these days, and diseases spread rapidly from one horse to another..not taking that chance.

But again, it is up to the individual. One reason families used to have a bunch of children is that the odds were several would not make it to adulthood.


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## haypoint

The guy I bought my farm from was in WWI. He was in a Military Hospital in WashingtonDC when the flu swept through. Killed weak and strong. He said that it killed so many that they had to just tag the bodies and stack them outside (it was winter) like cordwood. It swept around the world, killing millions. In my northern community, nearly half the population died, whole families, gone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic
A hundred years later, the chance of a similar pandemic is still possible. If we all refused vaccinations it would surely kill millions. If it could sweep the world back then, with all the increased travel we have today, I can't imagine the swift loss of life.
My Great Uncle suffered from Polio his whole short life. I have worked with polio victims. All now dead. I had a school mate with polio. I imagine she's dead, too.

But, I'm just a fear monger, walking lock step with evil pharmaceuticals. Perhaps it was their greed for money that caused the research and development of an Ebola treatment. But honestly, given a choice, you want their evil medication or you want a not-for-profit African village shaman tossing bones into a circle on the ground as your hope for survival. So far, the grim reaper is aught for two in the US.


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## JeffreyD

haypoint said:


> The guy I bought my farm from was in WWI. He was in a Military Hospital in WashingtonDC when the flu swept through. Killed weak and strong. He said that it killed so many that they had to just tag the bodies and stack them outside (it was winter) like cordwood. It swept around the world, killing millions. In my northern community, nearly half the population died, whole families, gone.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic
> A hundred years later, the chance of a similar pandemic is still possible. If we all refused vaccinations it would surely kill millions. If it could sweep the world back then, with all the increased travel we have today, I can't imagine the swift loss of life.
> My Great Uncle suffered from Polio his whole short life. I have worked with polio victims. All now dead. I had a school mate with polio. I imagine she's dead, too.
> 
> But, I'm just a fear monger, walking lock step with evil pharmaceuticals. Perhaps it was their greed for money that caused the research and development of an Ebola treatment. But honestly, given a choice, you want their evil medication or you want a not-for-profit African village shaman tossing bones into a circle on the ground as your hope for survival. So far, the grim reaper is aught for two in the US.


Interesting link. Seems most died from pneumonia. .a secondary infection. ..not from the flu itself. I've had the flu vaccination twice...got the flu both times...swine flue in 2009. I didn't die from it. As a matter of fact, I didn't do anything other than stay home and drink lots of water. No drugs. I did have pneumonia once....didn't care much for it!! My doc said it's hit or miss as far as the strain goes....told me not to get vaccinated for it anymore. I've only ever gotten the flu when I've gotten vaccinated for it! My parents are in their 90's, they don't get the flu or the vaccination. My best friend points to the fact that he hasn't had the flu for years and attributes that to the fact that he gets the vaccination every year. My point....do what you need to do for yourself.


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## PrettyPaisley

supernovae said:


> Not really. California anti-vaxxers have had recent HUGE problems with whooping cough. NO one is safe when you choose to not get vaccinated.



Source? 

Because when I search I find just the opposite. 

http://www.kpbs.org/news/2014/jun/12/immunized-people-getting-whooping-cough/

****85%**** of those infected with pertussis were up to date on their vaccines. That is a HUGE number. And what does that mean? That means - false immunity, bypassing the natural immune system - Does. Not. Work. Or does that mean we need annual boosters? 

The number of people who are waking up to the dangers of vaccines and realizing that the concern isn't health but instead wealth, is definitely growing. But the vast majority of people in this country are vaccinated. This is NOT working.

If anyone bothered to watch the video clip from the Doctors show you would have heard that as a nation we rank *34th* in under 5 year old deaths - _*BEHIND CUBA*_ !!! What the heck ???? I know there are excuses about diagnosis being "redefined" so it only appears that we have an increase in sick kids ... but how the heck do you redefine *DEAD *???? 

Please - if you support vaccines and believe that we are leaps and bounds ahead of other nations with our fabulous quality of life and healthcare - EXPLAIN THIS TO ME !!!! 

We live in a fallen world. You can talk all you want about how things used to be when people were dropping like flies (which I will disagree with as we have no accurate data, only speculation from gravestones) but when the US ranks #50 in maternal deaths - and #35 in dead babies under 5 - I'll take my chances with pertussis and measles any day. You cannot keep attacking pregnant women and babies with toxic concoctions and expect us to just sit back and take it.

And for anyone reading with questions - this is another good site though it deals heavily with autism. 
http://www.generationrescue.org/resources/vaccination/

IMO opinion vaccines are only one piece to the autism puzzle. No, it's not properly studied but you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know why. We are doing far too much "investigating" and far too little eliminating because everyone wants to donate money. Skip the donation and ditch the chemicals and then do some studies on those numbers.


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## PrettyPaisley

JeffreyD said:


> Interesting link. Seems most died from pneumonia. .a secondary infection. ..not from the flu itself. I've had the flu vaccination twice...got the flu both times...swine flue in 2009. I didn't die from it. As a matter of fact, I didn't do anything other than stay home and drink lots of water. No drugs. I did have pneumonia once....didn't care much for it!! My doc said it's hit or miss as far as the strain goes....told me not to get vaccinated for it anymore. I've only ever gotten the flu when I've gotten vaccinated for it! My parents are in their 90's, they don't get the flu or the vaccination. My best friend points to the fact that he hasn't had the flu for years and attributes that to the fact that he gets the vaccination every year. My point....do what you need to do for yourself.


I was pregnant during the Great Swine Flu outbreak in 2009. I delivered in November 2009. I was still having very big issues with my asthma symptoms then, but obviously I declined all vaccines. _Ssssshhhh....don't tell anyone. We both lived._


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## PrettyPaisley

Tiempo said:


> Pretty Paisley, I'm curious..there are vaccines required to immigrate to the US legally, I had them when I immigrated.
> 
> Do you think that immigrants should be able to have them waived if they don't want them and still enter?


I absolutely do. 

BUT-if they let immigrants in without vaccines, they stand to lose good paying customers.


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## arabian knight

PrettyPaisley said:


> I absolutely do.
> 
> BUT-if they let immigrants in without vaccines, they stand to lose good paying customers.


And a Lot of Good living with the fear of getting dreaded diseases. 
They will miss out on a lot. And may even have a much shortened live because of it. They better be getting vaccinated for the better good of ALL Americans *including those anti vaccine ones*.
This country, if not getting a handle on all this illegal immigrate, and all those illegals that are carrying dreaded diseases from all these unvaccinated millions that are now flooding this country. We in heel big trouble in the coming years.


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## PrettyPaisley

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I have to ask.... What vaccine is it that you think poses more risk... than the risk of the disease itself? Vaccines DO work, and I have never heard of a single one that compromises a healthy immune system. Someone somewhere has fed you quite a line of misinformation! I dont blame you for feeling the way you do, but you really do need to look someplace else for your health information. Do it for the sake of your kids. and hey, I dont even like kids, but they do deserve to be protected from dangerous (often fatal) diseases.


They are protected. I will stand them up against any vaccinated kid any day of the week and compare. (And until I had a couple I didn't like kids either.) The reason I decided to try things a little differently is because of how sick I was as a kid. Sick all the time. Improperly nourished from the word go. Hot boxed as daddy smoked like a chimney. I was "colicky", asthmatic, had food allergies, my sister was covered in eczema and both of us had horrible allergies. We were not only fully vaccinated (which was only so bad in the early 70's) but we were taken to the doctor for antibiotics every time we sneezed. 

Paisley has been to the doctor *ONE* time for a nagging cough. Piper has never been to the doctor for anything other than one well check. When I took them for physicals earlier this summer they had to dig Piper's records out of storage. My kids don't get sick. They breathe in dirt and manure, they get lots of sunshine, they climb trees, they chase chickens, they ride bikes, they pick peas, the drink raw milk and eat tons of raw milk ice cream. God love her, Piper still sucks her thumb and yes, I pause and fret many nights when I put her in the tub and see nine filthy, grody dirt crusted fingernails and one sparkling clean thumb nail. I'm sure many others here can say the same thing about their healthy kids and this fabulous way of life. 

But all that aside - I've stopped allowing myself to be vaccinated (against my asthma doctor's wishes) and I play along in manure and sunshine with them. And after 3 years of really living in dirt and breathing in true manure and spending hours each day in sunshine, I'm off my asthma meds. My doctor since 2000 was shocked when I went to see him a couple of months ago and told him I wanted off my medication. He laughed gently and told me that people don't go off of Advair. But I did.

So you tell me. Would YOU risk it if you knew more about how to build a healthy immune system? Probably not - but I don't consider how we live risky. Risky is Tylenol before vaccines. Risky is vaccines in a baby who's blood brain barrier has't developed. Risky is vaccines in a 2 year old and McDonald's drive thru on the way home. Risky is not proper nourishment, limited chemicals and allowing the body to develop without interference from man.


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## JeffreyD

PrettyPaisley said:


> They are protected. I will stand them up against any vaccinated kid any day of the week and compare. (And until I had a couple I didn't like kids either.) The reason I decided to try things a little differently is because of how sick I was as a kid. Sick all the time. Improperly nourished from the word go. Hot boxed as daddy smoked like a chimney. I was "colicky", asthmatic, had food allergies, my sister was covered in eczema and both of us had horrible allergies. We were not only fully vaccinated (which was only so bad in the early 70's) but we were taken to the doctor for antibiotics every time we sneezed.
> 
> Paisley has been to the doctor *ONE* time for a nagging cough. Piper has never been to the doctor for anything other than one well check. When I took them for physicals earlier this summer they had to dig Piper's records out of storage. My kids don't get sick. They breathe in dirt and manure, they get lots of sunshine, they climb trees, they chase chickens, they ride bikes, they pick peas, the drink raw milk and eat tons of raw milk ice cream. God love her, Piper still sucks her thumb and yes, I pause and fret many nights when I put her in the tub and see nine filthy, grody dirt crusted fingernails and one sparkling clean thumb nail. I'm sure many others here can say the same thing about their healthy kids and this fabulous way of life.
> 
> But all that aside - I've stopped allowing myself to be vaccinated (against my asthma doctor's wishes) and I play along in manure and sunshine with them. And after 3 years of really living in dirt and breathing in true manure and spending hours each day in sunshine, I'm off my asthma meds. My doctor since 2000 was shocked when I went to see him a couple of months ago and told him I wanted off my medication. He laughed gently and told me that people don't go off of Advair. But I did.
> 
> So you tell me. Would YOU risk it if you knew more about how to build a healthy immune system? Probably not - but I don't consider how we live risky. Risky is Tylenol before vaccines. Risky is vaccines in a baby who's blood brain barrier has't developed. Risky is vaccines in a 2 year old and McDonald's drive thru on the way home. Risky is not proper nourishment, limited chemicals and allowing the body to develop without interference from man.


I developed asthma when I was about 12. I was put on piles of pills and inhalers. Got allergy shots too. Never slept because those drugs were all stimulants. I quit everything on my own when I was 16 and never looked back. I haven't had an asthma attack since!


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## Molly Mckee

One reason why our death rate in children is as high as it is is the simple fact that we save many babies that would not live in other countries, we also count live births as live birth even when they are premature. Many countries do not count premies with the full term births, so we start out behind. If you prefer third world medical care and think it's better that ours, you may have a research problem.

The more you post about your experiences, the more obvious it is you don't have a clue how to research nor do you care about scientific facts. That is okay when you affect your family, it is not okay when you try to influence others. I hope everyone reading this will do their own real research and not believe thosewho "know" or "feel" or "think". Your children's futures may depend on it.

If people die from side effects or after effects of the flu they still died because they had the flu--they would not have had the problems if they didn't have the flu to begin with. Vaccines are not effective at once, if you get the flu soon after the vaccine, you were coming down with it before you had the shot. What one person reports, without any medical evidence is not fact. It is simply what one person thinks may have happened or wants to believe happened.


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## Molly Mckee

PrettyPaisley said:


> They are protected. I will stand them up against any vaccinated kid any day of the week and compare. (And until I had a couple I didn't like kids either.) The reason I decided to try things a little differently is because of how sick I was as a kid. Sick all the time. Improperly nourished from the word go. Hot boxed as daddy smoked like a chimney. I was "colicky", asthmatic, had food allergies, my sister was covered in eczema and both of us had horrible allergies. We were not only fully vaccinated (which was only so bad in the early 70's) but we were taken to the doctor for antibiotics every time we sneezed.
> 
> Paisley has been to the doctor *ONE* time for a nagging cough. Piper has never been to the doctor for anything other than one well check. When I took them for physicals earlier this summer they had to dig Piper's records out of storage. My kids don't get sick. They breathe in dirt and manure, they get lots of sunshine, they climb trees, they chase chickens, they ride bikes, they pick peas, the drink raw milk and eat tons of raw milk ice cream. God love her, Piper still sucks her thumb and yes, I pause and fret many nights when I put her in the tub and see nine filthy, grody dirt crusted fingernails and one sparkling clean thumb nail. I'm sure many others here can say the same thing about their healthy kids and this fabulous way of life.
> 
> But all that aside - I've stopped allowing myself to be vaccinated (against my asthma doctor's wishes) and I play along in manure and sunshine with them. And after 3 years of really living in dirt and breathing in true manure and spending hours each day in sunshine, I'm off my asthma meds. My doctor since 2000 was shocked when I went to see him a couple of months ago and told him I wanted off my medication. He laughed gently and told me that people don't go off of Advair. But I did.
> 
> So you tell me. Would YOU risk it if you knew more about how to build a healthy immune system? Probably not - but I don't consider how we live risky. Risky is Tylenol before vaccines. Risky is vaccines in a baby who's blood brain barrier has't developed. Risky is vaccines in a 2 year old and McDonald's drive thru on the way home. Risky is not proper nourishment, limited chemicals and allowing the body to develop without interference from man.


Your kids are not protected.

Plenty of farm kids that lived healthy lives died from diseases we now vaccinate for, died before there were vaccinations for usual childhood diseases. 

I grew up in a very small town, my parents did everything they could to protect us from polio. We ate well, balanced diets, had a big garden and orchard, had all kinds of pets, played outside all the time. We were healthy kids, until we got polio. My brothers and I have had life long problems from it. One of my brothers was in the hospital for 7 months and not able to walk when he came home. 

You think that your children are safe. They really aren't. You are taking a chance with their lives and their health. You are going to have to explain why you decided to put them at risk.
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## JeffreyD

Remember, the 3rd leading cause of death is........doctors! Close to 500,0000 per year.


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## Evons hubby

PrettyPaisley said:


> They are protected. I will stand them up against any vaccinated kid any day of the week and compare. (And until I had a couple I didn't like kids either.) The reason I decided to try things a little differently is because of how sick I was as a kid. Sick all the time. Improperly nourished from the word go. Hot boxed as daddy smoked like a chimney. I was "colicky", asthmatic, had food allergies, my sister was covered in eczema and both of us had horrible allergies. We were not only fully vaccinated (which was only so bad in the early 70's) but we were taken to the doctor for antibiotics every time we sneezed.
> 
> Paisley has been to the doctor *ONE* time for a nagging cough. Piper has never been to the doctor for anything other than one well check. When I took them for physicals earlier this summer they had to dig Piper's records out of storage. My kids don't get sick. They breathe in dirt and manure, they get lots of sunshine, they climb trees, they chase chickens, they ride bikes, they pick peas, the drink raw milk and eat tons of raw milk ice cream. God love her, Piper still sucks her thumb and yes, I pause and fret many nights when I put her in the tub and see nine filthy, grody dirt crusted fingernails and one sparkling clean thumb nail. I'm sure many others here can say the same thing about their healthy kids and this fabulous way of life.
> 
> But all that aside - I've stopped allowing myself to be vaccinated (against my asthma doctor's wishes) and I play along in manure and sunshine with them. And after 3 years of really living in dirt and breathing in true manure and spending hours each day in sunshine, I'm off my asthma meds. My doctor since 2000 was shocked when I went to see him a couple of months ago and told him I wanted off my medication. He laughed gently and told me that people don't go off of Advair. But I did.
> 
> So you tell me. Would YOU risk it if you knew more about how to build a healthy immune system? Probably not - but I don't consider how we live risky. Risky is Tylenol before vaccines. Risky is vaccines in a baby who's blood brain barrier has't developed. Risky is vaccines in a 2 year old and McDonald's drive thru on the way home. Risky is not proper nourishment, limited chemicals and allowing the body to develop without interference from man.


Hey, I was raised on a farm. ate mudpies, drank out of irrigation ditches, and survived my grannies cooking... I survived and built up a lot of immunities that way. Howsomever I would be very careful standing me, or your kids too close to some kid with small pox, polio, TB, or any number of other diseases without benefit of a vaccination.... The bodies immune system is simply not capable of warding off some of these germs on its own. The introduction of "KILLED" germs and viruses allows our bodies to build that resistance without actually contracting the disease itself. That is what vaccines are all about... helping the body help itself. There are far more records than tombstones to look at... death certificates, autopsy reports, people indeed did die horrible deaths prior to vaccines being available.... lots and lots of people... millions of other suffered horrible debilitating after affects even though they may have survived. My aunt Bonnie, died when she was 14, that would have been in 1940... before vaccines... or even simple antibiotics like penicillin was available. It was absolutely heartbreaking reading her diary last June when my father passed away, he had kept it in a trunk, with other family treasures and heirlooms. Even as her body was rotting away and falling off in chunks... she still had dreams and ambitions... and plans to wed one of the neighbor boys... 
She too had grown up in the country, drinking raw whole milk and eating a pure diet in the days before farming with chemicals was popular. She too spent her share of time running in the pastures and fields, getting covered with all sorts of things that build a great immune system... but it didnt save her from those pesky germs that were stronger than her natural immune system. I never met my aunt Bonnie, she was already gone 11 years before I was born. I have visited her grave... no mention of how she died on the headstone... but granny had it entered in her family bible. 

Yes Shannon... real people died! People suffered! No, not everyone, but a very large number never made it to adulthood. My grandparents buried half of their children before they reached the age of 18. There were no vaccines back then. Life stunk before the miracles of vaccines and antibiotics were developed. I truly hope your children are the lucky ones that manage to survive and avoid those horrible events.


----------



## Molly Mckee

JeffreyD said:


> Remember, the 3rd leading cause of death is........doctors! Close to 500,0000 per year.


And what would the death rate be without them???????????
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## JeffreyD

Molly Mckee said:


> And what would the death rate be without them???????????
> http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


They still killed 1/2 million people who trusted them with their lives! Just saying! How many would have survived if there was no intervention by doctors?


----------



## Molly Mckee

Another great research result! 

I doubt that doctors kill 500,000 people a year. They may attend that many people who die, that does not mean they killed them. How about all those that do not go to the hospital or doctor until they are to sick to live--did the doctor kill them? Or those that don't vaccinate or refuse medications, and die--is that the doctors fault? Or all the od's and drunks that show up in er after accidents, that's the doctors fault?


----------



## JeffreyD

Molly Mckee said:


> Another great research result!
> 
> I doubt that doctors kill 500,000 people a year. They may attend that many people who die, that does not mean they killed them. How about all those that do not go to the hospital or doctor until they are to sick to live--did the doctor kill them? Or those that don't vaccinate or refuse medications, and die--is that the doctors fault? Or all the od's and drunks that show up in er after accidents, that's the doctors fault?


What did your research tell you before responding to my post? You did research what I posted didn't you?

Those are the stats from the cdc as reported by npr. These are from drunk doctors botching operations, wrong meds, left behind surgical instruments, things of that nature. Not from people NOT being treated. According to the report, these deaths were attributed directly to the actions of doctors. Personally, I didn't think there were that many doctors!!:shrug:


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## Molly Mckee

You might want to Google that, your number is wrong according to npr. And it's not from cdc, it's from several doctors. Oh and they are including 80,000 hospital deaths, which may or may not be the doctor's fault. 

You need to spend some time in a city er. You will wonder why so many people live, the condition they show up in the er in. Sometimes it's pretty hard to decide what will kill them first. They also included medicine errors and call that the doctors fault. I don't think 50% (my impression) of patients take medications as directed, and if they aren't in the hospital how is that the doctors fault?

There are bad doctors but they are in minority. There are bad nurses as well. Most medical personal care about their patients and do the best they can. There is a huge problem with overworked hospital personal, as well as insurance companies making medical decisions. Things are not going to be getting any better, either.


----------



## JeffreyD

Molly Mckee said:


> You might want to Google that, your number is wrong according to npr. And it's not from cdc, it's from several doctors. Oh and they are including 80,000 hospital deaths, which may or may not be the doctor's fault.
> 
> You need to spend some time in a city er. You will wonder why so many people live, the condition they show up in the er in. Sometimes it's pretty hard to decide what will kill them first. They also included medicine errors and call that the doctors fault. I don't think 50% (my impression) of patients take medications as directed, and if they aren't in the hospital how is that the doctors fault?
> 
> There are bad doctors but they are in minority. There are bad nurses as well. Most medical personal care about their patients and do the best they can. There is a huge problem with overworked hospital personal, as well as insurance companies making medical decisions. Things are not going to be getting any better, either.


Hey, you did finely do some research, good for you!(even tho it was after the fact)

"An estimate of 440,000 deaths from care in hospitals "is roughly one-sixth of all deaths that occur in the United States each year," James wrote in his study. *He also cited other research that's shown hospital reporting systems and peer-review capture only a fraction of patient harm or negligent care*."

"Way too many people are being harmed by unintentional medical error," Mayer said, "and it needs to be corrected."

"That would make medical errors the third-leading cause of death in America, behind heart disease, which is the first, and cancer, which is second."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/201...ny-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-u-s-hospitals

I've spent time in ER's in the city, my cousin is an ER doctor in Morro Bay! He failed at being a dentist so he became a doctor instead!!! He's an ER doctor cause he doesn't have any accountability!


----------



## Molly Mckee

The estimate was arrived at by taking the number of 225,000, 80,000 of which were "hospital deaths" which may or may not be the doctors fault, including medication errors, and then decided that they could more than double the number and were satisfied the number was good. They admittedly did not have anything to back up the number. 

I think that you will find that there is a big difference between for profit and non-profit hospitals rates. I would also point out that this was reported by NPR as fact, when it is --as it does say in the article that it is the opinion of a few doctors. NPR is not noted for either accurate or non biased reporting.


----------



## JeffreyD

Molly Mckee said:


> The estimate was arrived at by taking the number of 225,000, 80,000 of which were "hospital deaths" which may or may not be the doctors fault, including medication errors, and then decided that they could more than double the number and were satisfied the number was good. They admittedly did not have anything to back up the number.
> 
> I think that you will find that there is a big difference between for profit and non-profit hospitals rates. I would also point out that this was reported by NPR as fact, when it is --as it does say in the article that it is the opinion of a few doctors. *NPR is not noted for either accurate or non biased reporting*.


Really?

There are other sources for this data, i used npr because most folks accept that their not biased! Except you! Do the research, like you suggest others do. It's not rocket surgery! 

It also could be as high as 440,000!

I don't think you read any of the links to studies in that npr article, otherwise you would be refuting exactly where npr got this information or what it says. That smacks of the lack of research, which you so fondly like to throw at folks!

http://journals.lww.com/journalpati...idence_based_Estimate_of_Patient_Harms.2.aspx

A New, Evidence-based Estimate of Patient Harms Associated with Hospital Care.

In light of the evidence above, and especially that of the Weisman study,14 and although it is probably an underestimate, a minimum estimate of a 2-fold increase in the medical record&#8211;based estimate is reasonable to compensate for the known absence of evidence in medical records of errors of commission and the inability of the GTT to detect errors of omission even when the evidence that guidelines were not followed may be present in the medical record. Note that the Weisman study suggests a factor of 3 (32/11) for undocumented evidence of serious PAEs caused during hospitalization, but here, we settle for a factor of 2.14 To this, one should add the undetected diagnostic errors. If we begin with the minimum estimate of 40,000 and assume that only half of these occur in hospitals, then the math looks like this: (210,000 Ã 2) + 20,000 &#8764; 440,000 PAEs that contribute to the death of patients each year from care in hospitals. This is roughly one-sixth of all deaths that occur in the United States each year. The problem of PAEs must emerge from behind the &#8220;Wall of Silence&#8221; and be addressed for the sake of prolonging the lives of Americans.

Yet, the action and progress on patient safety is frustratingly slow; however, one must hope that the present, *evidence-based estimate of 400,000+ deaths per year *will foster an outcry for overdue changes and increased vigilance in medical care to address the problem of harm to patients who come to a hospital seeking only to be healed.


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## haypoint

The solution to reduced "death by doctors" is increased time with each patient and more nurses. But I can't afford the amount of care provided now, so I sure don't want to fund a plan that greatly increases costs. 
Perfect doctors? Perfect hospitals? Nope, nothing in this world is perfect. But, overall we have a good system that saves millions of lives.
Now, back to evil vaccinations......


----------



## mmoetc

PrettyPaisley said:


> Source?
> 
> Because when I search I find just the opposite.
> 
> http://www.kpbs.org/news/2014/jun/12/immunized-people-getting-whooping-cough/
> 
> ****85%**** of those infected with pertussis were up to date on their vaccines. That is a HUGE number. And what does that mean? That means - false immunity, bypassing the natural immune system - Does. Not. Work. Or does that mean we need annual boosters?
> 
> The number of people who are waking up to the dangers of vaccines and realizing that the concern isn't health but instead wealth, is definitely growing. But the vast majority of people in this country are vaccinated. This is NOT working.
> 
> If anyone bothered to watch the video clip from the Doctors show you would have heard that as a nation we rank *34th* in under 5 year old deaths - _*BEHIND CUBA*_ !!! What the heck ???? I know there are excuses about diagnosis being "redefined" so it only appears that we have an increase in sick kids ... but how the heck do you redefine *DEAD *????
> 
> Please - if you support vaccines and believe that we are leaps and bounds ahead of other nations with our fabulous quality of life and healthcare - EXPLAIN THIS TO ME !!!!
> 
> We live in a fallen world. You can talk all you want about how things used to be when people were dropping like flies (which I will disagree with as we have no accurate data, only speculation from gravestones) but when the US ranks #50 in maternal deaths - and #35 in dead babies under 5 - I'll take my chances with pertussis and measles any day. You cannot keep attacking pregnant women and babies with toxic concoctions and expect us to just sit back and take it.
> 
> And for anyone reading with questions - this is another good site though it deals heavily with autism.
> http://www.generationrescue.org/resources/vaccination/
> 
> IMO opinion vaccines are only one piece to the autism puzzle. No, it's not properly studied but you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know why. We are doing far too much "investigating" and far too little eliminating because everyone wants to donate money. Skip the donation and ditch the chemicals and then do some studies on those numbers.


Interesting that you bring up Cuba. They seem to have a fairly active immunization program administered through their government run health care system and supported and monitored by various "people's" organizations. I wonder what the options for opting out are http://www.medicc.org/publications/medicc_review/1004/pages/spotlight.html


----------



## PrettyPaisley

And they are what, #34 ?? 
Yes, let's be more like Cuba.

Would you like to offer any answers to the questions I've asked in the post you've quoted ? Because I would love to hear an explanation.


----------



## Evons hubby

mmoetc said:


> I wonder what the options for opting out are?


Good question!


----------



## watcher

PrettyPaisley said:


> I was pregnant during the Great Swine Flu outbreak in 2009. I delivered in November 2009. I was still having very big issues with my asthma symptoms then, but obviously I declined all vaccines. _Ssssshhhh....don't tell anyone. We both lived._


Again, anecdotal evidence much like my friend's 'proof' that its better not to wear your seat belt. I think you should have the right not to vaccinate or not to wear your seat belt and even tell others why you think its the correct thing to do.


----------



## mmoetc

PrettyPaisley said:


> And they are what, #34 ??
> Yes, let's be more like Cuba.
> 
> Would you like to offer any answers to the questions I've asked in the post you've quoted ? Because I would love to hear an explanation.


I believe your post positioned the US at #34, behind Cuba. Since their outcome is better than ours, as you pointed out, maybe we should be following their example.


----------



## watcher

PrettyPaisley said:


> They are protected. I will stand them up against any vaccinated kid any day of the week and compare. (And until I had a couple I didn't like kids either.) The reason I decided to try things a little differently is because of how sick I was as a kid. Sick all the time. Improperly nourished from the word go. Hot boxed as daddy smoked like a chimney. I was "colicky", asthmatic, had food allergies, my sister was covered in eczema and both of us had horrible allergies. We were not only fully vaccinated (which was only so bad in the early 70's) but we were taken to the doctor for antibiotics every time we sneezed.
> 
> Paisley has been to the doctor *ONE* time for a nagging cough. Piper has never been to the doctor for anything other than one well check. When I took them for physicals earlier this summer they had to dig Piper's records out of storage. My kids don't get sick. They breathe in dirt and manure, they get lots of sunshine, they climb trees, they chase chickens, they ride bikes, they pick peas, the drink raw milk and eat tons of raw milk ice cream. God love her, Piper still sucks her thumb and yes, I pause and fret many nights when I put her in the tub and see nine filthy, grody dirt crusted fingernails and one sparkling clean thumb nail. I'm sure many others here can say the same thing about their healthy kids and this fabulous way of life.
> 
> But all that aside - I've stopped allowing myself to be vaccinated (against my asthma doctor's wishes) and I play along in manure and sunshine with them. And after 3 years of really living in dirt and breathing in true manure and spending hours each day in sunshine, I'm off my asthma meds. My doctor since 2000 was shocked when I went to see him a couple of months ago and told him I wanted off my medication. He laughed gently and told me that people don't go off of Advair. But I did.
> 
> So you tell me. Would YOU risk it if you knew more about how to build a healthy immune system? Probably not - but I don't consider how we live risky. Risky is Tylenol before vaccines. Risky is vaccines in a baby who's blood brain barrier has't developed. Risky is vaccines in a 2 year old and McDonald's drive thru on the way home. Risky is not proper nourishment, limited chemicals and allowing the body to develop without interference from man.


Its funny. My mom and dad each grew up that same way. But you know what? They both had siblings which didn't make it past their second birthdays. One in five of my paternal grandparents children and two in seven for my maternal ones. That means 3 out of 12 or 25% of the children born to two families living the same way you are died. 

Now just what do you think might be different? I'm thinking the fact that back then scarlet fever, whooping cough, polio et al were common because there were no vaccines meant that almost every family in an area was exposed and it was either God or random chance (depending on your belief system) which chose which child lived.


----------



## harvestmoon1964

PrettyPaisley said:


> And they are what, #34 ??
> Yes, let's be more like Cuba.
> 
> Would you like to offer any answers to the questions I've asked in the post you've quoted ? Because I would love to hear an explanation.



http://stanmed.stanford.edu/2013fall/article2.html


----------



## watcher

JeffreyD said:


> I developed asthma when I was about 12. I was put on piles of pills and inhalers. Got allergy shots too. Never slept because those drugs were all stimulants. I quit everything on my own when I was 16 and never looked back. I haven't had an asthma attack since!


I have to wonder about your asthma diagnosis. First off there's no test for it. Its a catch all for when there's a breathing problem which no other simple problem can be found. They give you bronchodilators and if that solves the problem you are labeled as asthmatic.

Second, developing asthma at 12 is rare. Asthmatics usually have slight problems most of their lives but start having major problems and therefore diagnosed when they reach an age where they become more active, e.g. running around playing tag, which is usually 4-6 y.o.

Third, asthma never really goes away. I had it as a young child (almost died a couple of times) but it 'went away' when I was older. I played baseball, basketball, HS football and got into the running craze for a while. Never had a breathing problem in all that time. Then in my 30s during a deer hunt I had an attack which put me in the ER. From then on I've had attacks from time to time and keep an inhaler close by.

Fourth, asthma can kill and kill quickly. In my case if I hadn't been hunting on my father-in-laws property and close to the road they probably would have found my body in the woods the next day. I had a high school friend it killed in her late 20s. They found her body on her front steps half way in the door. Her inhaler was on the kitchen table about 15 feet from her body. Looked like she was working in her shed when she had a major attack and couldn't make it back to the house.


----------



## where I want to

I don't discount all the worries of anti vaccine people. But I have yet to see any real rigorous sciene to support any of the allegations and a whole lot of the allegations are irrational in the first place. 
But even if I believed all of these allegations, the results are still much worse for not vaccinating. The few who don't vaccinate are skating by on everyone else's efforts. They confuse that with being right.


----------



## watcher

where I want to said:


> I don't discount all the worries of anti vaccine people. But I have yet to see any real rigorous sciene to support any of the allegations and a whole lot of the allegations are irrational in the first place.
> But even if I believed all of these allegations, the results are still much worse for not vaccinating. The few who don't vaccinate are skating by on everyone else's efforts. They confuse that with being right.


There have been study after study trying to link all kinds of things to vaccines and none of them have shown any type of link.


----------



## haypoint

BCBS Medical insurance is higher in Michigan due to the higher than average child birth problems. Michigan has a large ethnic population that places little value on women. Women receive little or no prenatal care. The increased child death rate in Michigan is not a reflection of bad doctors or evil vaccinations. It is a reflection of the hundreds of thousands of immigrants that have brought their third world values, if not their diseases, to this country.


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## BlackFeather

When I started this thread, I didn't realize I had opened a can of vaccinated worms. In principle vaccinations can be helpful, some American Indian tribes would stick a sick person with a thorn and then stick themselves or their children with the same thorn in hopes of preventing the illness. Where I'm now concerned is this supposed Agenda 21 that wants to depopulate the world. I've never been much for conspiracy theories, but lately I'm not sure. Can we trust the Pharmaceutical companies? I read an article by a journalist who had been friends in high school with a man, this man went on to end up being a vice president of a pharmaceutical company. Years later the journalist went to visit his old, long time ago friend, he was appalled, the man hoped everyone would be sick so they could sell their drugs to more people. So the question is: years ago, vaccines were generally safe, but what about now? Do you trust these big corporations? As far as government agencies, are they looking out for you or big business? 

Some quotes:



> Prince Phillip, the Duke of Edinburgh&#8230;.
> 
> &#8220;If I were reincarnated I would wish to be returned to earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels.&#8221;





> Microsoft&#8217;s Bill Gates&#8230;.
> 
> &#8220;The world today has 6.8 billion people. That&#8217;s heading up to about nine billion. Now if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care, reproductive health services, we could lower that by perhaps 10 or 15 percent.&#8221;



http://www.whale.to/c/22.html


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## CritskyCritter

People call this anecdotal...but I have a son who was perfectly fine, was talking, saying truck and hockey etc we took him in for a shot and within days he regressed and started being quieter, I guess "by coincidence" they say, his autism started, but I don't really believe it or have any faith in big pharma. Sanofi-Pasteur and the likes are all greedy/no good/ IMO, which is an opinion I never considered before this happened. Who knows what goes on.


Step #1; buy the land


----------



## where I want to

CritskyCritter said:


> People call this anecdotal...but I have a son who was perfectly fine, was talking, saying truck and hockey etc we took him in for a shot and within days he regressed and started being quieter, I guess "by coincidence" they say, his autism started, but I don't really believe it or have any faith in big pharma. Sanofi-Pasteur and the likes are all greedy/no good/ IMO, which is an opinion I never considered before this happened. Who knows what goes on.
> 
> 
> Step #1; buy the land


If some condition is set to happen, then I suppose that a series of vaccines could trigger it. But that does not mean it would not have happened later, maybe at the first illness that the vaccines were meant to prevent. I say that because every population study large enough to be statistically reliable has shown no- that's not a small- but no difference in autism rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated people.
But even if that were true, I have seen the results of no vaccinations , both here because I am old enough, and abroad where they weren't available, to know not vaccinating is much worse for many more people.
It would be much more useful for those fearful of vaccinations to direct their attention to ways to make them even safer, then demand those procedures be followed.


----------



## watcher

BlackFeather said:


> When I started this thread, I didn't realize I had opened a can of vaccinated worms. In principle vaccinations can be helpful, some American Indian tribes would stick a sick person with a thorn and then stick themselves or their children with the same thorn in hopes of preventing the illness. Where I'm now concerned is this supposed Agenda 21 that wants to depopulate the world. I've never been much for conspiracy theories, but lately I'm not sure. Can we trust the Pharmaceutical companies? I read an article by a journalist who had been friends in high school with a man, this man went on to end up being a vice president of a pharmaceutical company. Years later the journalist went to visit his old, long time ago friend, he was appalled, the man hoped everyone would be sick so they could sell their drugs to more people. So the question is: years ago, vaccines were generally safe, but what about now? Do you trust these big corporations? As far as government agencies, are they looking out for you or big business?


A couple of things. Without government coverage I don't think there's a pharm company in the world that would produce or sell vaccines in the US. Why? Because there is a known risk to using them and it would only take a few law suits to wipe out the company. After all what jury isn't going to side with the parents of a injured child and give them millions upon millions upon millions of dollars?

Second, if you look at the data you will see that while there is some risk involved in vaccines you will see that the risk from them is very small. If you look at the data on the diseases we vaccinate for you will note the number of them in the US over all is also tiny and the number of them in people who 'current' on the vaccines is even smaller. 

Again it all comes down to what you consider "safe". When you look at the numbers you are putting your child at a much great risk each and every time you take them on the road in your car. Yet I have NEVER met a anti-vaccine person who doesn't ignore this much greater risk.


----------



## watcher

CritskyCritter said:


> People call this anecdotal...but I have a son who was perfectly fine, was talking, saying truck and hockey etc we took him in for a shot and within days he regressed and started being quieter, I guess "by coincidence" they say, his autism started, but I don't really believe it or have any faith in big pharma. Sanofi-Pasteur and the likes are all greedy/no good/ IMO, which is an opinion I never considered before this happened. Who knows what goes on.


That is exactly what anecdotal evidence is. Two things happened and you assume that they are connected. 

Seeing as we have no real idea of what triggers autism trying to link it with some action is useless. The latest 'best' info suggests its a physical problem caused by too many synapses in the brain. If this is the case there is very little, if any, possibility that a vaccine causes it. 

Study after study after study has sown no causal link between vaccines and autism. Since 2004 there have been no less than 6 studies trying to establish a link. One of these studied the cases of over 14,000,000 children and "found no creditable evidence" to link vaccines with autism.

The only study reported did find a link has been proven as a fraud, a quick google search will show you. From CNN:

_A now-retracted British study that linked autism to childhood vaccines was an "elaborate fraud" that has done long-lasting damage to public health, a leading medical publication reported Wednesday.

__An investigation published by the British medical journal BMJ concludes the study's author, Dr. Andrew Wakefield, misrepresented or altered the medical histories of all 12 of the patients whose cases formed the basis of the 1998 study -- and that there was "no doubt" Wakefield was responsible._


----------



## where I want to

BlackFeather said:


> When I started this thread, I didn't realize I had opened a can of vaccinated worms. ]


I'm sorry that I implied you were doing this deliberately but there is a post running around the same track from a few days ago. It gets old. If I didn't think it was so very important I wouldn't post to them anymore. They are brought up rather often.


----------



## BlackFeather

> I'm sorry that I implied you were doing this deliberately but there is a post running around the same track from a few days ago. It gets old. If I didn't think it was so very important I wouldn't post to them anymore. They are brought up rather often.


I'm not in anyway upset, I was just curious. I'm not sure how I feel about vaccinations now, the childhood ones seem important but I think I would have them spaced out more than given all at once like some doctors do. Now the flu shot is another deal, research has shown it isn't effective for people over 65 yet they still give it to them. Personally, I have seen so many people get sick after getting the shot I won't do it. I would rather let my own immune system deal with it, it's over active anyway that's why I have Crohn's disease.


----------



## PrettyPaisley

watcher said:


> I have to wonder about your asthma diagnosis. First off there's no test for it. Its a catch all for when there's a breathing problem which no other simple problem can be found. They give you bronchodilators and if that solves the problem you are labeled as asthmatic.
> 
> Second, developing asthma at 12 is rare. Asthmatics usually have slight problems most of their lives but start having major problems and therefore diagnosed when they reach an age where they become more active, e.g. running around playing tag, which is usually 4-6 y.o.
> 
> Third, asthma never really goes away. I had it as a young child (almost died a couple of times) but it 'went away' when I was older. I played baseball, basketball, HS football and got into the running craze for a while. Never had a breathing problem in all that time. Then in my 30s during a deer hunt I had an attack which put me in the ER. From then on I've had attacks from time to time and keep an inhaler close by.
> 
> Fourth, asthma can kill and kill quickly. In my case if I hadn't been hunting on my father-in-laws property and close to the road they probably would have found my body in the woods the next day. I had a high school friend it killed in her late 20s. They found her body on her front steps half way in the door. Her inhaler was on the kitchen table about 15 feet from her body. Looked like she was working in her shed when she had a major attack and couldn't make it back to the house.



Are you serious ?

I wasn't "diagnosed" until 11th grade but no where did I say I wasn't symptomatic my entire life. And no where did I say I was cured. I still have a rescue inhaler that use a few times amonth. I've been hospitalized for asthma upwards of a dozen times since the mid-90's - once set my ambulance (against my wishes). (Mid-90s is also when I left home and began to "cook" for myself which equates to eating copious amounts of crap food.). I was in the ER for asthma on the evening of my 40th birthday and that was just under 4 years ago. My struggle peaked in 2000 and that is when a friend sent me the number of a doctor who did clinical trials and covered all healthcare needs for anyone who qualified for his studies. Being uninsured I went to him for help. 

I participated in studies with him for several years and was withdrawn from more than one because the study medication made my struggle with asthma worse. It wasn't until I was off the studies he put me on Advair and at that point I had zero symptoms - for years. The only issue I had then was my eyesight was becoming increasingly worse and that appears to be a side effect of that drug. 

You might not think that physical work, sunshine and animal dander as well as limiting processed food has a positive impact on your health but I dare say you'd be in the minority there.


----------



## PrettyPaisley

watcher said:


> That is exactly what anecdotal evidence is. Two things happened and you assume that they are connected.
> 
> Seeing as we have no real idea of what triggers autism trying to link it with some action is useless. The latest 'best' info suggests its a physical problem caused by too many synapses in the brain. If this is the case there is very little, if any, possibility that a vaccine causes it.
> 
> Study after study after study has sown no causal link between vaccines and autism. Since 2004 there have been no less than 6 studies trying to establish a link. One of these studied the cases of over 14,000,000 children and "found no creditable evidence" to link vaccines with autism.
> 
> The only study reported did find a link has been proven as a fraud, a quick google search will show you. From CNN:
> 
> _A now-retracted British study that linked autism to childhood vaccines was an "elaborate fraud" that has done long-lasting damage to public health, a leading medical publication reported Wednesday.
> 
> __An investigation published by the British medical journal BMJ concludes the study's author, Dr. Andrew Wakefield, misrepresented or altered the medical histories of all 12 of the patients whose cases formed the basis of the 1998 study -- and that there was "no doubt" Wakefield was responsible._



Again, if you listen to the details of the study - these studies are lip service. Just like the "organic" and "all natural" labels - it is nothing more than an a whack-a-mole ploy to quiet the naysayers 

http://www.sott.net/article/284251-...years-of-silence-on-CDCs-vaccine-autism-fraud.


----------



## PrettyPaisley

CritskyCritter said:


> People call this anecdotal...but I have a son who was perfectly fine, was talking, saying truck and hockey etc we took him in for a shot and within days he regressed and started being quieter, I guess "by coincidence" they say, his autism started, but I don't really believe it or have any faith in big pharma. Sanofi-Pasteur and the likes are all greedy/no good/ IMO, which is an opinion I never considered before this happened. Who knows what goes on.
> 
> 
> Step #1; buy the land



I'm very sorry. I wish this were the rare case but sadly it is not. The only silver lining is the more often this happens the more resources available, as parents come together.


----------



## Evons hubby

PrettyPaisley said:


> Again, if you listen to the details of the study - these studies are lip service. Just like the "organic" and "all natural" labels - it is nothing more than an a whack-a-mole ploy to quiet the naysayers
> 
> http://www.sott.net/article/284251-...years-of-silence-on-CDCs-vaccine-autism-fraud.


Ok, in the interests of fairness I clicked on your link... and for whatever reason the name "Andy Wakefield" rang a bell. I then decided to find out why. It seems he is the guy who was busted for fraud a while back with his "work" linking autism to vaccines. I wouldnt put much faith in anything he is behind. 

http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/autismwakefield.html


----------



## handymama

I've worked in three local nursing homes. There are so very many people who had their lives ruined by diseases we now vaccinate for. I had a resident I had just helped to the bathroom, who had a tiny foot and short right leg, sit me down on her bed. She took my hand and said do you have babies. I said yes. She said do you vaccinate. I said yes. She said thank God. And that she wished her parents had that choice. She and her brother had polio. He died. And I also had a great uncle who died of whooping cough at seven months old. I will continue to vaccinate. Because, if nothing else, of that womans eyes.


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## haypoint

Interesting power of the internet, one man bands like Andy Wakefield or Dr. Mercola can become the pied piper of thousands that buy into their nonsense.


----------



## PrettyPaisley

For for Pete's sake. 

I thought you were thinking folks, you know, the kind that can see through the gov't hype and move on to the meat of the issue. 

I will ask AGAIN - did you watch the video I posted where the doctors were flabbergasted to find out that the "mercury in vaccines" study fell beyond way short of what we have been being told? Or - did you bother to do more than scratch the surface of the information on Wakefield, or did you choose to just glance over the headlines from the CDC? That would be the same CDC that has been hiding and lying about the truth, that vaccinations in fact do increase autism rates and are damaging young black boys at an alarming rate. 

Or do you just pick and choose the information you are willing to believe - even when presented from the *same source*? 

Oh yeah - anyone want to touch on the under 5 death rate in this country with brilliant advanced medicine, the ones who are feeding the world with the super nutritious, stealth GMOs?? Or are crickets all I should expect over the howl of "nonsense"?


----------



## Evons hubby

PrettyPaisley said:


> For for Pete's sake.
> 
> I thought you were thinking folks, you know, the kind that can see through the gov't hype and move on to the meat of the issue.


I think Pete died, something about small pox.... before vaccines brought it to a screeching halt. I am pretty sure most of us are thinking people, and we do not swallow hook line and sinker anything that comes along at first glance. When there is a preponderance of evidence that shows something works.... I tend to go with that... in spite of what a fringe element happens to believe. For example, a couple weeks ago I managed to get in an argument with my drink glass, wrestled it to the floor and broke it in half... the ornery bugger bit my arm pretty good as its last move on this planet. In spite of efforts made to convince me to go spend a bunch of money having stitches put in... it was only about an inch and a half long, quarter inch deep... I poured it full of honey, wrapped it up good to keep the bugs out and it is now just a small white scar. Why would I opt for my method instead of high priced medical treatments? Because I am a rational thinking person and after multiple tests I have honest to goodness proof that it works! Vaccines work too!.


----------



## where I want to

http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine...ne-safety/vaccine-ingredients/thimerosal.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywi...hiding-data-about-mercury-vaccines-and-autism



PrettyPaisley said:


> For for Pete's sake.
> 
> I thought you were thinking folks, you know, the kind that can see through the gov't hype and move on to the meat of the issue.
> 
> I will ask AGAIN - did you watch the video I posted where the doctors were flabbergasted to find out that the "mercury in vaccines" study fell beyond way short of what we have been being told? Or - did you bother to do more than scratch the surface of the information on Wakefield, or did you choose to just glance over the headlines from the CDC? That would be the same CDC that has been hiding and lying about the truth, that vaccinations in fact do increase autism rates and are damaging young black boys at an alarming rate.
> 
> Or do you just pick and choose the information you are willing to believe - even when presented from the *same source*?
> 
> Oh yeah - anyone want to touch on the under 5 death rate in this country with brilliant advanced medicine, the ones who are feeding the world with the super nutritious, stealth GMOs?? Or are crickets all I should expect over the howl of "nonsense"?



Thiamersol (the mercury form supposedly causing the problem) was the subject of large population studies that shown no increase in autism in thiamersol versus non- thiamersol vaccines. But in reaction to public fears, it has been mandated to be removed, asap. 

Seems the diagnosis rate for autism went up after it's removal in most vaccines.
Simple truth is the diagnosis of autism simply goes up because it is being applied to siituations that were not included previously.

If the under 5 death rates is higher in the US than in a number of other countries who vaccinate as heavily as the US, how does that prove that vaccinations are the reason for this?

I could only wish that silence is a good enough response but, like many fear creating fictions on the internet, it keeps on living no matter how many stakes you put through it's heart.


----------



## Molly Mckee

Pretty Paisley, would you please explain your educational and professional background that makes you qualified to judge the validity of the things you post? Just because you found it on the internet and it agrees with you does not make it correct. 

I realize you will not listen or do real research, but for the sake of your girls, I keep trying. I do think it's important that you stop trying to influence others, unless you have some kind of training, education, experience, other than you are a parent. Your opinion is simply, from everything I remember you posting, is simply your uneducated opinion and not based on anything else.


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## haypoint

Autism is a relatively new classification of mental disorders. In years past, Autism was just another kid that was off in the head, often times placed in mental institutions or hidden at home.
Sort of like all the people that died of consumption years ago are now called cancer victims. Switch every death from consumption to cancer and get people living long enough for cancer to catch up to them and we can trick ourselves into believing cancer is on the rise.
Same for Autism. We identify autism now. 
Alcohol remains the leading cause of birth defects, mental and physical. I have a neighbor with two Autistic children and she's an anti-vaccination believer. But both her and her husband were hitting the booze every day since before they got married. Yup, it's the evil vaccines. Wow, just wow.


----------



## harvestmoon1964

haypoint said:


> Autism is a relatively new classification of mental disorders. In years past, Autism was just another kid that was off in the head, often times placed in mental institutions or hidden at home.
> Sort of like all the people that died of consumption years ago are now called cancer victims. Switch every death from consumption to cancer and get people living long enough for cancer to catch up to them and we can trick ourselves into believing cancer is on the rise.
> Same for Autism. We identify autism now.
> Alcohol remains the leading cause of birth defects, mental and physical. I have a neighbor with two Autistic children and she's an anti-vaccination believer. But both her and her husband were hitting the booze every day since before they got married. Yup, it's the evil vaccines. Wow, just wow.


Consumption is actually pulmonary Tuberculosis. They knew about cancer back then. Agree with you about autism though.


----------



## haypoint

PP, I just think you have different boogy men than others. I fear epidemics and a population of disfigured folks. You seem to fear science and government.

I live in the world where most people use banks to save and borrow money from. I think it is a shame that teenagers start off to college and don't know about checking accounts, borrowing money, interest rates, compound interest rates and the like. 
You are so strongly against such knowledge as to yank your child out of school, in a huff, due to a lesson on getting a home mortgage. 
I want my children to go through life without crushing debt, too, but you and I disagree on what an education on mortgages can do.

Same for vaccines. Through lots of investments and hard work of scientists, with the public willing to be vaccinated, you are privileged to live in a time when epidemics and killing childhood diseases are at historically low numbers. That is what makes your children healthy. Their organic fruits and vegetables are not making them immune from polio. They didn't avoid the measles due to exposure to fresh air. They haven't been protected from the flu due to your fine parenting skills. Without exception, you owe your children's protection to the once common child killing diseases to us, the people that got vaccinated and vaccinated our children.

You are welcome.


----------



## PrettyPaisley

Hp - you make a ton of obnoxious assumptions. I did not take Paisley out of 2nd grade solely because she was being taught to grow up and borrow money for a house from the bank, again -in the 2nd grade. Who teaches that crap to a 7 year old ?? But hey - oversimplify it in an attempt to make me look huffy all you like. 

You didn't stand beside me for the first 9 months of her life while I poured over tons of information, mostly in tears and torn between what I had always been taught was the "right" thing do, worried that regardless my decision I would have to answer to her if she was either vaccines damaged or crippled from polio, while I prayed on my knees for the peace in my decision. The strength in my conviction doesn't come from a place of ignorance or a rebellious desire to buck the system. When someone tells you their Lord "placed it on their heart" - believe it's true. I might not subscribe to the same religion as most but my decision not to jack my kids up on vaccines wasn't one made in a split second decision after one Mercola blog post. Something bigger than my simple mind was talking to my soul.


----------



## elkhound

PrettyPaisley said:


> Hp - you make a ton of obnoxious assumptions. I did not take Paisley out of 2nd grade solely because she was being taught to grow up and borrow money for a house from the bank, again -in the 2nd grade. Who teaches that crap to a 7 year old ??



you know who......:whistlin:


----------



## Vahomesteaders

We vaccinated or kids up until 9 then we stopped. We no longer do vaccines or flu shots or use antibacterial anything. We are seeing things today you never seen before. Super bugs so to speak. And the antibacterial movement had alot to do with that. And yes vaccines have helped stop since of the bigger bugs from happening on large scales but what's happening now? We are seeing worse drug resistant bugs forming. Nature finds a way. Add that to so many new neurological and emotional diseases we are seeing and there is alot of info to support vaccines play a role. Adhd and autism are through the roof. What changed? Only vaccines. Think about it. Why put a bug into your body that isn't meant to be there? I say find better treatment for the illnesses so when they happen you can treat them vs putting bugs in your body that have no business there. I mean if those vaccines are so potent they can keep you from getting small pox or some other deadly illness, how good can they be for your body?


----------



## haypoint

Vahomesteaders said:


> We vaccinated or kids up until 9 then we stopped. We no longer do vaccines or flu shots or use antibacterial anything. We are seeing things today you never seen before. Super bugs so to speak. And the antibacterial movement had alot to do with that. And yes vaccines have helped stop since of the bigger bugs from happening on large scales but what's happening now? We are seeing worse drug resistant bugs forming. Nature finds a way. Add that to so many new neurological and emotional diseases we are seeing and there is alot of info to support vaccines play a role. Adhd and autism are through the roof. What changed? Only vaccines. Think about it. Why put a bug into your body that isn't meant to be there? I say find better treatment for the illnesses so when they happen you can treat them vs putting bugs in your body that have no business there. I mean if those vaccines are so potent they can keep you from getting small pox or some other deadly illness, how good can they be for your body?


Basic, real basic. The vaccines are killed viruses. Your body "sees" the virus and builds specific antibodies for that virus. So, when the actual virus comes along, your body can fight it. It already has the antibodies.
Imagine a big bully might beat you up and steal your lunch money. But weeks prior to that, a few kids your size try to beat you up and steal your lunch money. You are able to beat them while learning to fight. Eventually when the bully attacks, you have the skills to protect yourself. Not a perfect analogy, but I think it works.

Our bodies are designed to build antibodies to fight diseases. A vaccine triggers that response, allowing out bodies to prepare.
After a vaccine injection, our bodies go to work creating antibodies. It takes a few weeks to happen. If you get exposed to the flu just before the shot or in the following couple weeks, you will get the flu. But it isn't the vaccine that made you sick.

If your child was scratched or bitten by a bat, raccoon, skunk or wild dog, would you seek vaccination against rabies? 

When I went to school, over active children were punished, either at home or school or both. I knew a few. Some directed that energy and became hard working successful people. Some were drawn to booze and drugs. There was no attention deficit that a good whipping couldn't cure.

Also, the State Hospitals were located all over the place. Lots of folks "off in the head" locked away. Actually, these places were run like little cities and were often self supporting, but that's a story for another time. My point is that the whole spectrum of mental disorders were dealt with by institutionalization. Retarded, Bi-Polar, Nervous, etc. 

It wasn't until the 1950s that we begin to learn about Autism. Most schools didn't recognize it as a disorder until the 1970s. But we have made great advances in 40 years. Just as we have made great advances in vaccines in the past 60 years. But there is no known connection to the two. 

Autism and the related Ashburger's Syndrome is an interesting topic. I suggest you rent the movie, Temple Grandin or read some of the books authored by Colorado State University Professor Temple Grandin. She is Autistic. Should be required for everyone that knows someone with Autism.

There have always been resistant viruses. That is why you can catch more than one cold. It changes. If a virus didn't change, everyone would get an immunity to it and it would disappear.


----------



## PrettyPaisley

haypoint said:


> Basic, real basic. The vaccines are killed viruses.


Wrong. Again. 

http://promotinghealthandpatienteducation.blogspot.com/2010/06/which-vaccines-are-live.html

You are welcome.


----------



## haypoint

PrettyPaisley said:


> Wrong. Again.
> 
> http://promotinghealthandpatienteducation.blogspot.com/2010/06/which-vaccines-are-live.html
> 
> You are welcome.


OK, some are killed and some are weakened. 
Care to comment on any of the other parts of that post?:duel:


----------



## Molly Mckee

I think that this goes along with science illiterate thread. Why bother with the facts when you can go with "feelings"? And then you hear a voice telling you just what you want to hear? And you are convinced that that is equal or better than scientific research? I wish a mod would kill this thread--I hate to think anyone would be convinced that Pretty Paisley is qualified to give advice about anything that requires scientific knowledge. I just hope her kids don't pay the price.

Several other of our members have had polio as well as I have--we know on a daily basis the price not being vaccinated can cost, but we are alive and our parents didn't have to tell us it was their fault we got sick, because when we got polio there was no vaccine.


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## PrettyPaisley

When you do.


----------



## mmoetc

Strictly anecdotal but I'm sure many of you have a similar story. Ten years or so ago I got a phone call from one of my best childhood friends. We had lost touch for over twenty years. He was never great academically, had disciplinary issues throughout school and was an unfocused youngster. After a stint in the Navy he is now a State Patrol canine officer, trainer and supervisor. He has also been diagnosed with adult ADHD but learned many coping mechanisms on his own to make it through life. Today he would be another statistic in school. Then he was just hyperactive. We talked about our grade school class of almost thirty and identified at least 3 or 4 more besides him who would be in special programs and diagnosed if they were in school today. Then, they were just some of our more troublesome and interesting classmates. And there were many fewer vaccines back in the late 60's.


----------



## unregistered358967

Nevermind.


----------



## doingitmyself

I have scummy neighbors 1/4 mile away that bring home every huge stray dog they can find, and of course they can not even afford to feed the things, let alone vaccinate them. There is something about trashy people living off the system wanting huge dogs and big screen TVs those things just seem to go together. I bet the channel that Jerry Springer plays on is rusted into position.

I keep Fly bait on hand.......


----------



## Evons hubby

Molly Mckee said:


> I think that this goes along with science illiterate thread. Why bother with the facts when you can go with "feelings"? And then you hear a voice telling you just what you want to hear? And you are convinced that that is equal or better than scientific research? *I wish a mod would kill this thread*--I hate to think anyone would be convinced that Pretty Paisley is qualified to give advice about anything that requires scientific knowledge. I just hope her kids don't pay the price.
> 
> Several other of our members have had polio as well as I have--we know on a daily basis the price not being vaccinated can cost, but we are alive and our parents didn't have to tell us it was their fault we got sick, because when we got polio there was no vaccine.


Naw, lets not kill this thread... they already killed the science illiteracy thread.... we need someplace to discuss these matters. PP is entitled to her opinions, just the same as everyone else is. It makes no difference that she is wrong, she still should have the right to present her ideas.... and the rest of us should have the right to attempt to guide her back out of her well intentioned but misguided beliefs. If we dont keep the thread open.... how are we supposed to help out our neighbors and give them friendly advice?


----------



## PrettyPaisley

I love how the ignore button works. 

Not.


----------



## BlackFeather

Hey I found some more gasoline, just thought I'd throw it on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=THGbJnpywyw


----------



## watcher

PrettyPaisley said:


> Again, if you listen to the details of the study - these studies are lip service. Just like the "organic" and "all natural" labels - it is nothing more than an a whack-a-mole ploy to quiet the naysayers
> 
> http://www.sott.net/article/284251-...years-of-silence-on-CDCs-vaccine-autism-fraud.


link's broken takes me to a please donate page.


First off let me say I know enough about studies and date manipulation to know you can make a study show just about anything you want. The fake study which started the autism-vaccine link is a good example. 

Also I haven't been interested enough to read the studies to see if they followed proper procedures and how they used the data they collected nor studied the raw data to make my own conclusion about it.

With that said. I find it difficult to believe that a study which has been reviewed by both sides and involved over 14,000,000 (fourteen MILLION) cases is a fraud.

Got any case studies which show that the severe autism rate is lower in areas where the vaccine rate is lower?


----------



## watcher

Molly Mckee said:


> Pretty Paisley, would you please explain your educational and professional background that makes you qualified to judge the validity of the things you post? Just because you found it on the internet and it agrees with you does not make it correct.
> 
> I realize you will not listen or do real research, but for the sake of your girls, I keep trying. I do think it's important that you stop trying to influence others, unless you have some kind of training, education, experience, other than you are a parent. Your opinion is simply, from everything I remember you posting, is simply your uneducated opinion and not based on anything else.


I hate to point this out but in the US today she is probably correct in thinking her children are safer w/o a vaccine. The odds of them getting exposed to any of the nastys out there is, most likely, smaller than them having an adverse reaction to any type of medical care. But that's because everyone else is giving her cover.

Look at it this way. If she lived in a neighborhood where everyone but her owned firearms and had security systems the odds of her being robbed would be tiny because the other people's actions would scare any potential robbers away. And because she didn't have a firearm nor security system she would have a zero percent chance of an accidental shooting or a false alarm.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

watcher said:


> link's broken takes me to a please donate page.
> 
> 
> First off let me say I know enough about studies and date manipulation to know you can make a study show just about anything you want. The fake study which started the autism-vaccine link is a good example.
> 
> Also I haven't been interested enough to read the studies to see if they followed proper procedures and how they used the data they collected nor studied the raw data to make my own conclusion about it.
> 
> With that said. I find it difficult to believe that a study which has been reviewed by both sides and involved over 14,000,000 (fourteen MILLION) cases is a fraud.
> 
> Got any case studies which show that the severe autism rate is lower in areas where the vaccine rate is lower?


Actually yes. There was a large study globally of the Amish around the world. They don't vaccinate. And the autism rate as well as several other illnesses among them is 86% lower than the same number of people who vaccinate. Mental retardation and birth defects was also extremely low in the Amish community.


----------



## Evons hubby

Vahomesteaders said:


> Actually yes. There was a large study globally of the Amish around the world. They don't vaccinate. And the autism rate as well as several other illnesses among them is 86% lower than the same number of people who vaccinate. Mental retardation and *birth defects was also extremely low in the Amish community.*


Ok, that right there tells me everything I need to know about the validity of this "study".


----------



## Molly Mckee

Vahomesteaders said:


> Actually yes. There was a large study globally of the Amish around the world. They don't vaccinate. And the autism rate as well as several other illnesses among them is 86% lower than the same number of people who vaccinate. Mental retardation and birth defects was also extremely low in the Amish community.


This is not true........ the Amish have a high rate of genetic problems because they have married close relatives for so many years. I have never seen a legitimate study that says otherwise. The Amish have been sending young people to communities other than their home community to meet and marry people they are not as closely related to for quite a few years. They are very aware that this is a problem.

One thing people don't talk about is the fact that many people today have used illegal drugs. The studies that say they are safe have been done on "pure " samples of the drugs, the problem is they can be cut or mixed with anything when you get them from the friendly neighborhood pusher. These additional chemicals can do all kinds of damage to people, including doing genetic damage . It's much easier to blame vaccines than yourself when your child is hurt.
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## haypoint

BlackFeather said:


> Hey I found some more gasoline, just thought I'd throw it on.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=THGbJnpywyw


Well that clears up a lot. There is now startling proof that the simple lack of a Birth Certificate causes Autism. Wow, who knew? 

The CDC threw out those without a BC, because they lacked all the other details that they used in the study, birth weight, education of the mother, and a few other things not available to those without birth certificates, including race. Someone would have you believe they threw out Black babies without a BC, when the truth is that they threw out all those without traceable information for their study, of Blacks, Whites and Browns.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Molly Mckee said:


> This is not true........ the Amish have a high rate of genetic problems because they have married close relatives for so many years. I have never seen a legitimate study that says otherwise. The Amish have been sending young people to communities other than their home community to meet and marry people they are not as closely related to for quite a few years. They are very aware that this is a problem.
> 
> One thing people don't talk about is the fact that many people today have used illegal drugs. The studies that say they are safe have been done on "pure " samples of the drugs, the problem is they can be cut or mixed with anything when you get them from the friendly neighborhood pusher. These additional chemicals can do all kinds of damage to people, including doing genetic damage . It's much easier to blame vaccines than yourself when your child is hurt.
> http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


I live in an Amish community. They are nothing like that. They have weekly or biweekly hymn sings where the young people meet and date. I know none that have ever married relatives and none that have any defects. And we spent almost every weekend in Amish country pa and it was and is the same.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

http://healthwyze.org/index.php/com...get-autism-but-they-do-get-bio-terrorism.html


----------



## where I want to

Vahomesteaders said:


> Actually yes. There was a large study globally of the Amish around the world. They don't vaccinate. And the autism rate as well as several other illnesses among them is 86% lower than the same number of people who vaccinate. Mental retardation and birth defects was also extremely low in the Amish community.


http://autism.about.com/b/2008/04/2...ey-do-and-their-autism-rates-may-be-lower.htm

Actually the only documentation I have ever seen has approximately the similar vaccination rates for Amish. Only the most conservative Amish don't vaccinate, and no one would ever know what rate of autism they have as they would not recognize the need to get a diagnosis.


----------



## haypoint

At one time, I was doing fund raising activities for Michigan Special Olympics. Handicapped Children, Children with Downs Syndrome, Learning impaired, Autistic children and young adults compete in Olympic style events.
I provided sleigh rides. I could do car washes, Spaghetti Dinners, all sorts of activities. But nothing associated with booze. Nothing at a Bar. Nothing that served booze. Their strong stand against booze stems from the knowledge that booze is considered the cause of like 80% of birth defects. 
I'll guess that illegal drugs fill in the remaining 20%. Not vaccinations.


----------



## where I want to

haypoint said:


> At one time, I was doing fund raising activities for Michigan Special Olympics. Handicapped Children, Children with Downs Syndrome, Learning impaired, Autistic children and young adults compete in Olympic style events.
> I provided sleigh rides. I could do car washes, Spaghetti Dinners, all sorts of activities. But nothing associated with booze. Nothing at a Bar. Nothing that served booze. Their strong stand against booze stems from the knowledge that booze is considered the cause of like 80% of birth defects.
> I'll guess that illegal drugs fill in the remaining 20%. Not vaccinations.


I can remember children's wards during epidemics. You could go to a window and wave at a school friend, who was one of a dozen or more in the hospital with complications due to some "childhood illness." 
It's been repeated many times, even if the wildest unrealistic claims of the complications vaccines cause were true, it would be a small fraction of the damage done by the complications of the disease itself.


----------



## haypoint

I can only speak about the Amish that I know in Michigan and Ohio.
These large families have relatives all over their communities. When taking to the Amish teens, most know who their Uncle or Aunt is, but their eyes glaze over when asked about cousins. They just don't consider them related. 
There are a high number of "special children" in the Amish community. This has been studied and is easy to figure out when cousins marry cousins. 
In the past few years, greater effort is made to "mix it up". Families move to other communities. Families travel to distant relatives for events that result in teen romances.
But the point is that most Amish have large families, don't get vaccines, have a higher than average childhood death rate and higher than average "special" children directly related to inbreeding.
To be quite honest, I didn't know that Amish didn't vaccinate until a few months ago. Horse Progress Days, held in Ohio this year, is a huge event for the Amish and others using Horse Power. A month before this event, a group of Amish, returned to Ohio from Missionary work in the Philippines, with Measles. It swept through several Amish communities until strict quarantining efforts brought it under control. Many Amish from Michigan canceled plans to go, due to their lack of protection.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/201...ak-in-ohio-leads-amish-to-reconsider-vaccines


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Just Google "Amish healthier than most Americans." Look at all the results. Even mayo clinic talks about it.


----------



## haypoint

Vahomesteaders said:


> Just Google "Amish healthier than most Americans." Look at all the results. Even mayo clinic talks about it.


Hey, it ain't the lack of vaccinations.:facepalm:
Most grow their own fresh vegetables, set meal times, few are overweight. Drinking and smoking is rare, no TV, no video games. Lots of walking. In bed at dark. mid day naps. :thumb:
Is going to the doctor less a measurement of health? Amish don't go to the doctor much. Midwives take care of the many births. I doubt still birth or SIDS gets reported to anyone.
You just can't take a specific group of people with lifestyles different from others in a hundred different ways and conclude that a single aspect is proof of anything.:hammer:
Please don't use www.naturalnews.com in an intelligent conversation, it just ruins your credibility. That is what popped up when I googled your suggestion.

You might enjoy the enlightenment:
http://blogs.plos.org/thepanicvirus...ccinate-claims-disproved-by-fact-based-study/


----------



## PrettyPaisley

Vahomesteaders said:


> Just Google "Amish healthier than most Americans." Look at all the results. Even mayo clinic talks about it.



Come on now. You know that you can make suggestions like that. Everyone knows that you are responsible for every single search result that might pop up and no one will admit search result placements are for sale. Your credibility will hinge on quoting the likes of a Mike Adams, even when all he is doing is cutting and pasting from the precious CDC documents. 

You're gonna have to do a better job of proving your point. Perhaps a Go Fund Me is an option. That can start your task of buying off the gov't and then you'll have street cred.


----------



## Molly Mckee

Pretty Paisley, did I miss your post about your qualifications about your education and experience that give you any expertise in the field of science? You make sarcastic remarks, but I haven't seen any reason to believe that you are an expert.

My niece married a man that grew up Amish. He left before baptism, so he is not shunned. They have a one year old. When my niece said something about vaccines, his family said to vaccinate. The ones that are Amish as well as those that have left the church. They mostly belong to one of the more conservative groups, but it also depends on what the Bishop says. Two of his brothers are Bishops, they both encourage vaccination. There are many different kinds of Amish, and their believes vary. Not only do they encourage vaccinations, but they are vaccinated. Some Amish don't vaccinate, and keep their kids at home so they marry in the area, others send them to other groups where they have relatives or friends so they don't end up marrying cousins who have cousins for parents. My nephew's family has teens coming to help all the time to help but to meet other younger Amish as well. Many realize how the intermarrying has hurt children and want their children to have fewer problems.


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## where I want to

PrettyPaisley said:


> Come on now. that you are responsible for every single search result that might pop up
> 
> You're gonna have to do a better job of proving your point. Perhaps a Go Fund Me is an option. That can start your task of buying off the gov't and then you'll have street cred.


There is definitely a double standard in deciding what is credible or not. The myriad of anti-vaccine sites are developed from the same few opinions from the same small group repeated endlessly. These sites ignore all the various international studies by hundreds of researchers providing peer reviewed papers to huge professional groups.
If you want to google a reality check, google check child mortality. Measles account for 4% of the deaths of children world wide. It is not the biggiest killer, but not negligible.




In 1947 through 1949, before widespread use of the vaccine, an average of 580 cases of tetanus and an average of 472 deaths from tetanus were reported [5].- During 1972--2006, the cumulative number of reported neonatal tetanus cases decreased to 32; the most recent cases were reported in 1989, 1995, 1998, and 2001.[4] 

http://www.smartvax.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=88:disease-risk-tetanus

Whooping cough deaths in one year- http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/10/20/california.whooping.cough/


Congenital birth defects due to unvaccinated mothers- http://kidshealth.org/parent/system/ill/birth_defects.html

Hundreds of authoritative sources of opinions and stats versus the same 3 or 4 retreads on not vaccinating


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## PrettyPaisley

We've beaten the pertussis vaccine to death. Parents or caregivers? You mean the ones who've been vaccinated for it? You mean, vaccines don't work?


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## where I want to

PrettyPaisley said:


> We've beaten the pertussis vaccine to death. Parents or caregivers? You mean the ones who've been vaccinated for it? You mean, vaccines don't work?


And this statement is any evidence at all? You have be treated courteously with meaningful source that take time to research. You could respond in kind.


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## haypoint

PrettyPaisley said:


> We've beaten the pertussis vaccine to death. Parents or caregivers? You mean the ones who've been vaccinated for it? You mean, vaccines don't work?


In 60 years there isn't much of me that's the same. Don't know why you'd expect every vaccine in every person would last six decades? Lots of vaccines require booster shots. Most folks don't work 60 years, why would every vaccination? :smack

When I see someone grasping at straws like that, I think they must be making a nest.:clap:

We have discussed rabies vaccinations before. 40,000 people die each year from rabies, but it is uncommon in the US. Why? Because we have had strict requirements for canine rabies vaccinations. Likely rabies will always exist in the wild animal population. Dogs often are that link between wild animals and humans. Another vaccine success story. BTW, most Vets get the vaccinations but get blood tests every few years to check that the antibodies are still active. Otherwise, gasp, they get a booster.


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## Molly Mckee

where I want to said:


> And this statement is any evidence at all? You have be treated courteously with meaningful source that take time to research. You could respond in kind.


She can't reply with meaningful sources because they don't have any. They keep repeating the same old song, all that I have seen have been totally discredited. They think that if you restate a lie often enough it will become true--but it doesn't. I don't know why, they could be hurting a lot of kids if their parents read their propaganda and believe. Maybe it has to do with the how to make donations part of the websites? Or maybe they don't have a clue how to research and read scientific studies and really don't understand what they are repeating?
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## haley1

http://www.morganverkamp.com/august...-relationship-between-mmr-vaccine-and-autism/

Wow, what timing, saw this on local fox news tonight and found the website they talked about. Maybe time to think about it.


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## PrettyPaisley

where I want to said:


> And this statement is any evidence at all? You have be treated courteously with meaningful source that take time to research. You could respond in kind.


Did you read the link? The article stated these kids most likely caught pertussis from caregivers and parents. I was going with the information presented to me.


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## PrettyPaisley

haypoint said:


> *In 60 years there isn't much of me that's the same. Don't know why you'd expect every vaccine in every person would last six decades? Lots of vaccines require booster shots. Most folks don't work 60 years, why would every vaccination? :smack*
> 
> When I see someone grasping at straws like that, I think they must be making a nest.:clap:
> 
> We have discussed rabies vaccinations before. 40,000 people die each year from rabies, but it is uncommon in the US. Why? Because we have had strict requirements for canine rabies vaccinations. Likely rabies will always exist in the wild animal population. Dogs often are that link between wild animals and humans. Another vaccine success story. BTW, most Vets get the vaccinations but get blood tests every few years to check that the antibodies are still active. Otherwise, gasp, they get a booster.


And how many children under 3 months are currently in your care? 

Yes-you are correct. Parents and caregivers are a new cash crop. So are the elderly. There is no end to the good that can be done with regular vaccines for all. Especially when it comes to the bank accounts of Big Pharma and thinning the population for those buttering the bread of the likes of Gates.


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## Vahomesteaders

haley1 said:


> http://www.morganverkamp.com/august...-relationship-between-mmr-vaccine-and-autism/
> 
> Wow, what timing, saw this on local fox news tonight and found the website they talked about. Maybe time to think about it.


That's a good read but those here will laugh at it and write it off as propaganda. If they want to keep poisoning their children and grandchildren, let them I guess.


----------



## haypoint

PrettyPaisley said:


> And how many children under 3 months are currently in your care?
> 
> Yes-you are correct. Parents and caregivers are a new cash crop. So are the elderly. There is no end to the good that can be done with regular vaccines for all. Especially when it comes to the bank accounts of Big Pharma and thinning the population for those buttering the bread of the likes of Gates.


 Making a profit isn't an evil thing. Without incentive there would be no inventions, no cars, no phones, no computers. Do you hate Bill Gates because he sold what people wanted at a price they wanted to pay. If we restricted Pharmaceuticals from making a profit, about the only thing they'd be selling is aspirins. It is the hope of making a profit that drives research. When that research saves lives, and the folks that invested their retirement savings into shares of those companies, earn a profit, funding their Condo on Lake Lure, that isn't a bad thing.

I don't think I could live with myself if I had given my grandchildren Whooping Cough. How do you rationalize that?

Ever talk to someone that has contracted Shingles? What do they recommend you do?:nono:


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## watcher

Vahomesteaders said:


> Actually yes. There was a large study globally of the Amish around the world. They don't vaccinate. And the autism rate as well as several other illnesses among them is 86% lower than the same number of people who vaccinate. Mental retardation and birth defects was also extremely low in the Amish community.


Can you provide a link? I've searched for the study and all I get is news stories about it.

Also I have found links to studies which show that many Amish do vaccinate. One study of 359 found the rate to be 68%.


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## JeffreyD

haypoint said:


> Ever talk to someone that has contracted Shingles? What do they recommend you do?:nono:


Deal with it!


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## watcher

PrettyPaisley said:


> And how many children under 3 months are currently in your care?
> 
> Yes-you are correct. Parents and caregivers are a new cash crop. So are the elderly. There is no end to the good that can be done with regular vaccines for all. Especially when it comes to the bank accounts of Big Pharma and thinning the population for those buttering the bread of the likes of Gates.


Again you have the luxury of not vaccinating your kids because the odds of them being exposed to anything is so small because most of the people around you are vaccinated. Can you even imagine what it would be like if even 50% of the people in the US today stopped vaccinating?

I used this with another poster I'll use it with you now.

Say you lived in a neighborhood where everyone but you owned firearms, had large protective dogs and security systems. Would you say that the odds of you getting robbed are small because criminals would not venture into a neighborhood like that due to the protection provided by the firearms, dogs and security systems your neighbors owned. That means in protecting themselves from being robbed they are protecting you as well. 

Now say that several of those neighbors see you being safe and decided that keeping all that stuff is just too much to deal with. At some point the criminals are going to see that there are enough unprotected houses to make it worth while to go into that neighborhood. At that point which houses do you think will be robbed? The ones which have the protection or those who have none?

This is the same way with non-vacciner (if that's a word). As long as most people around them are vaccinated the odds of them or their kids getting say measles is very small. But at some point there are enough unvaccinated people to make the odds go up. At another the risk of a full fledged epidemic gets high and it only takes one infected person to start it.

It seems you are not old enough to have any knowledge of parents living in fear that their child would be the next to get polio. To not be shocked to hear that the family on the next farm over was going to bury their youngest child because it was common for kids to die. Or know of a baby being born blind because the mother had "German measles". To wonder if your husband would die the horrible death of "lock-jaw" after stepping on an old horse shoe and having a nail go into his foot.

Those of us who are old enough to remember such things have no problems with getting our children and ourselves vaccinated.


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## Evons hubby

PrettyPaisley said:


> And how many children under 3 months are currently in your care?
> 
> Yes-you are correct. Parents and caregivers are a new cash crop. So are the elderly. There is no end to the good that can be done with regular vaccines for all. Especially when it comes to the bank accounts of Big Pharma and thinning the population for those buttering the bread of the likes of Gates.


I dont have anyone under my care... my Yvonne pretty well takes care of not only herself, but myself too as my health continues to deteriorate due to too many years of abusing my body with life. I take vaccinations seriously... I understand that in rare cases minor side affects can be a result, but in 99.999999 to the umpteenth 9... it just isnt a problem. Figure the odds of pulling a royal flush, on the first hand dealt to you in your very first hand at playing poker... A bit over 649 thousand to one. In my 50 some odd years of playing poker, I have seen ONE royal flush... The way you look at vaccinations.. you would fold. Me? I would not only stay in, I would raise the bet.... not enough to blow everyone else out of the game, but enough to build the biggest pot I could. My point? You are gambling with you children's future.... you need to work on figuring those odds.


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## haypoint

I think that if I truly believed that Pharmaceuticals were out to kill people and that Autism was caused by vaccines, I'd be against most vaccinations. 

But I fear real diseases instead.


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## PrettyPaisley

So we've traded children blinded by German measles for scores of kids with what we now write off as normal issues. Autism - no longer a surprise to see a dozen or so kids in a classroom on the spectrum. Epi pen walls in the nurses offices so kids don't drop dead after lunch because a breeze blew a peanut crumb in their direction. We rank in the 3rd world numbers of dead kids under five. Just because you don't have a dead baby doesn't mean it ISN'T STILL HAPPENING. 

I may not have first hand experience with dead or sick babies (but for the grace of god-though there is a marked difference in my daughters and I know it was because of that bull crap HIB injection I was bullied into letting her have at two days old) but I meet women everyday who do. I had a man call me yesterday seeking homegrown heirloom vegetables because he can't afford more than 4/10 of a acre but knows he has to make real changes, as is 2 month old son contracted encephalitis he day after his shots. He told me, as his voice cracked, he watched his baby lost and desperate for his mother's breast which he could no longer locate. I meet parents like this constantly because the community of those with damaged kids is growing by leaps and bounds and they are demanding answers and taking on the task of changing this lockstep, swallow what the gov't forces down your throat crap. And yeah - I know of babies who have died after their vaccines and don't dare tell me it is any less tragic than your great great aunt Bertha just because we've got to take one for the team. 

You want to swap blindness and sterility for auto immune disorders and cancer you go right ahead. But it's not okay with me to knowingly jack up innocent babies with crap we KNOW will harm them just because of your misguided fear and love of passing the buck. And my kids are NOT healthy because someone else is dead. My kids are healthy because I have the guts, the passion and the willingness to do what is RIGHT by them instead of lining up with cowards and blindly following everyone else off the cliff of comfort.


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## Molly Mckee

You don't listen to anyone who doesn't agree with you do you?
There are many possible causes of autism in children, vaccines have been proven by scientists not to cause autism. One thing that may make it seem that there are more kids identified with autism, they used to be considered different. Mothers for the most part stayed home with their kids and there was a lot less stress in life. Many parents today have used illegal drugs, which are much more likely to have contaminates in them than any vaccine or prescribed drug. The variables go on and on, from catalytic converters on cars that have changed the type of pollutants in the air to foods full of chemicals, to high fat diets, to lack of exercise and very scheduled lives. Saying one of the few things that has been proven not to cause autism does cause it ....... 

You do what you want with your life, just stop trying to hurt others.


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## where I want to

haley1 said:


> http://www.morganverkamp.com/august...-relationship-between-mmr-vaccine-and-autism/
> 
> Wow, what timing, saw this on local fox news tonight and found the website they talked about. Maybe time to think about it.


It clear as mud and it cover the ground - as the old song goes. Seems likely that the autism "link" was because data was taken from a special ed school for people with autism, who are-tah tah- likely to have autism. Which would certainly taint the data. 
And what Dr. Thompson is doing with a lawyer is trying to defend himself from suits by parents of autistic children who blame him for "skewing" the results by leaving this data out of his study. Seems his government employer is not wanting to defend him in these cases. He blames them for his predicament. 
So as far as I can sort out- it was not wrong to leave this data out scientifically but the rabid autism-vaccince-link people are suing because it was excludednas they choose to think it supports their position. 
It appears - and appears is because it is impossible to get through to the truth in a law suit- that it is a case of legal advice seeking protection from the sharks and forcing him to acknowledge that this was done rather than any revelation of a conspiracy or truth.


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## where I want to

PrettyPaisley said:


> You want to swap blindness and sterility for auto immune disorders and cancer you go right ahead. But it's not okay with me to knowingly jack up innocent babies with crap we KNOW will harm them just because of your misguided fear and love of passing the buck. And my kids are NOT healthy because someone else is dead. My kids are healthy because I have the guts, the passion and the willingness to do what is RIGHT by them instead of lining up with cowards and blindly following everyone else off the cliff of comfort.



Passion is the only thing right. And blind passion is not the road to truth.

Unlike you, I and many people my age and older have lived at a time when scourges like polio killed and maimed thousands of children every summer because there was no vaccine for it. So WE know. Actually have had that truth rubbed in our faces. Every year there were stories of children living in iron lungs because they couldn't breath on their own. We all knew children dragging around heavy braces with their crutches. For Pete's sake, we had a President paralyzed from polio. This is not fiction. This is not a conspiracy. This is history. Look up iron lung.

I can remember standing in huge lines with other school children to get polio vaccinations. And suddenly like a curtain coming down, all the children stopped getting sick. Just like that. 

I had a small pox vaccination- ever see anyone scarred and blinded from small pox? No? Thank vaccination. Thyphoid fever? Dyptheria? No? Thank vaccinations. With consistent vaccinations world wide, no one needs a small pox vaccination any more.

So you think you know because there are still things that can't be fixed. But you don't know. You think that these age old scourges of disease are gone, maybe you think they never existed. But you are simply wrong. No polite way to say it-wrong. You think what goes on now is so horrible but it is ease itself compared to the world of my childhood and my childhood was ease itself compared to 50 years before that.



http://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...-polio-survivor-worries-about-new-f2D11641456. I know you don't want to check it out so I put the first story that came up when I googled iron lung. Not that I expect you will look anyway- it's truly ugly.


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## where I want to

http://www.cdc.gov/24-7/savinglives/diphtheria/campaign.html

The Iditarod Dog Sled race was established in memory of a heroic trip to bring diphtheria anti-toxin to an isolated community with an outbreak of the disease. This story started a national campaign to vaccinate for this disease and virtually stopped the 15,000 deaths a year in the US at that time.

And this figure did not include the disabilities due to heart and kidney damage- life long pronlems.


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## where I want to

http://m.jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S1.long

Until the 1960's measels killed one out of every 1000 people infected and hundreds of thousands were infected yearly.


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## where I want to

And on and on and on........


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## Vahomesteaders

I'm not saying vaccines don't work. But at what risk? You cannot deny the rate at which autism and other mental and emotional diseases are growing. What's causing it? There is significant prove they cause asthma and other allergies as well as many autism links. As to the pharmaceutical companies. They are for profit only. They put man on the Moon and claim to know everything about evolution and can tell you everything about a puddle of ooze and cells billions of years ago but can't cure the common cold or cancer? They can build an atom bomb and transfer body parts and faces but can't cure ibs. They have a cure for cancer and most illnesses. But it would break them to give it to you. They give you just enough to keep you coming back. They make clients not cures. They know these vaccines do cause problems. There is no history of seizures in my family. Yet both my kids who never had them started too after the 3 year vaccination. First my son. Got his 3 year shots and he started having siezures. 18 months later my daughter turned 3 had her shots and started having random siezures. No explanation from doctors. I know it was those shots.


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## unregistered358967

Vahomesteaders said:


> Yet both my kids who never had them started too after the 3 year vaccination. First my son. Got his 3 year shots and he started having siezures. 18 months later my daughter turned 3 had her shots and started having random siezures. No explanation from doctors. I know it was those shots.


I have three friends (in different states) who have kids with similar reactions. It was a night and day difference according to them. I didn't see their kids' personalities before getting the shots... they're convinced the shots caused their kids to go on the spectrum, and yes, all three kids are definitely mildly to moderately autistic.

So I can't help but wonder this_...in some kids does there lie some sort of genetic marker for Autistic Spectrum Disorder that would normally stay in the background, but something in a vaccine "turns it on"? _ Sort of like the perfect storm.

I honestly don't know but all of my friends say if they could turn back time they would. The amount of guilt they feel is heartbreaking.


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## Vahomesteaders

Jax-mom said:


> I have three friends (in different states) who have kids with similar reactions. It was a night and day difference according to them. I didn't see their kids' personalities before getting the shots... they're convinced the shots caused their kids to go on the spectrum, and yes, all three kids are definitely mildly to moderately autistic.
> 
> So I can't help but wonder this_...in some kids does there lie some sort of genetic marker for Autistic Spectrum Disorder that would normally stay in the background, but something in a vaccine "turns it on"? _ Sort of like the perfect storm.
> 
> I honestly don't know but all of my friends say if they could turn back time they would. The amount of guilt they feel is heartbreaking.


It is a shame. Thankfully my kids grew out of the siezures for now. But I have turned down every shot from that point forward. I mean look at the hpv thing they want girls to have. It's killed many girls and actually has been linked to cancer and yet parents give it to their kids. Not my daughter. Just a couple weeks ago with the Ebola thing. They were pumping an unknown vaccine into people turn told them what was in it. They just poisoned those people for life. Like the old saying goes. Science was so busy trying to figure out of they could they didn't stop to think of they should.


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## SLFarmMI

There has been no scientifically proven link between autism and vaccines. Yes, there has been a rise in ASD diagnoses but a great deal of that rise is due to better methods of identification. But no, we're not looking at a dozen or more ASD kids in one classroom as Pretty Paisley has stated in a previous posting. There's also been a trend for people outside the medical or educational fields to look at a person who is outside the "norm" and declare "they must be on the spectrum". It's the latest "hot topic". These things tend to come in waves. The last one was learning disabilities. Suddenly, everybody had a learning disability, regardless of whether they really did. I did many an evaluation on kids whose parents were convinced they had learning disabilities when they weren't even close to meeting the criteria. Now, I'm starting to see an upswing in parental requests for evaluation of autism. And before people jump all over me about "you're not a doctor, you can't diagnose autism", you should know that there are both medical and school methods of diagnosis and, in the schools, we have to follow the school method of evaluation.

The fact of the matter is that, as of right now, the causes of autism are unknown. Researchers have found abnormalities in several areas of the brains of people with ASD and others have found abnormalities in the levels of neurotransmitters in the brain. Both of these things suggest that autism could be caused from a disruption in fetal brain development in the womb. Twin studies suggest that some people are genetically predisposed to autism (something like 80-90% chance that if one twin has ASD that the other one will as well). There is also a greater chance (I don't know the percentages) that if there is one child in a family with autism, that other children in the family will as well. These results do not indicate a causal link between autism and vaccines.


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## handymama

Hpv causes cancer! I have hpv and two daughters and I am here to tell you they will be vaccinated. Wish to God I had been.


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## unregistered358967

SLFarmMI said:


> Now, I'm starting to see an upswing in parental requests for evaluation of autism. And before people jump all over me about "you're not a doctor, you can't diagnose autism", you should know that there are both medical and school methods of diagnosis and, in the schools, we have to follow the school method of evaluation..


Yup. I think parents are more aware of it. It's good that the schools do testing for it early on so that if there's truly a problem, further testing/evaluations can be done and treatment started frim there as a jumping point. From what I've seen, it's not something that kids can fake..a kid is either on the spectrum or not..


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## Vahomesteaders

handymama said:


> Hpv causes cancer! I have hpv and two daughters and I am here to tell you they will be vaccinated. Wish to God I had been.


Instead of vaccinating or kids for an std we should be teaching or kids about safe sex or no sex before marriage.


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## handymama

You really think they're gonna listen to you in the heat of the moment? Yeah, maybe they will, but I'm not willing to take that chance. And We tell our kids not to play with cleaners but still get cabinet locks. We tell them not to touch the guns but get locking gun safes. Tell them to brush their teeth but take them to the dentist. And you can easily get hpv while wearing a condom. All it takes is rubbing. Its a mixing of skin cells.


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## Vahomesteaders

Kids will listen if we set the example and instill in them good moral character. But that's for another thread. Lol


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## handymama

Oh, I was taught not to have sex before marriage. I was taught about stds. And I got hpv from my firstborns father who had cheated on me. I was 21, not just some dumb kid. I was taking birth control and had been in a relationship with him for three years. Because of my hpv I've had cervical cancer scares. Multiple surgeries to remove the horrendously painful bleeding warts. I had to have Csections with my following two children because there was a chance that, coming out of the birth canal, they could get some of my skin cells in their mouth and get cancer of their vocal chords. They could have brushed up against it inside me and gotten Hpv too. And the Aldara cream that is supossed to remove them is eight hundred dollars for a three month supply.


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## PrettyPaisley

handymama said:


> Hpv causes cancer! I have hpv and two daughters and I am here to tell you they will be vaccinated. Wish to God I had been.



Please do research before you buy this hook, line and sinker. If the vaccine works it is for just a couple strains of HPV that could lead to cervical cancer which is very slow growing. If you are of high risk a Pap smear can be detect precancerous cells and more often than not with a healthy immune system your body will clear these cells up in their own. This I have lived. I did the precancerous cells thing when I was 23-24 years old. After three years of twice annual Pap smears to keep an eye on things and with no further issues - they were gone. 

Meanwhile, young girls are dropping dead after this series of shots. While common sense says telling girls to simply avoid a risky situation should be enough - most acknowledge it takes more than a promise of heaven to get that to happen. Teach your children well but nourish their bodies and keep them out of the system.


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## handymama

So how many deaths- you know, other than the ones they found out were caused by other things, like pre existing diabetes, drug use, and heart problems- have they found occurred directly because of hpv vaccine? Because I honestly couldn't find any, and I looked.


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## handymama

And honestly I wouldn't wish the warts on anybody. The hpv vaccine also protects against the most common strains that cause the warts.


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## PrettyPaisley

where I want to said:


> And on and on and on........



Did it ever cross your mind that this might be by design ?

So that the earth doesn't become overpopulated, so we don't run out of water and so we don't buy the Monsanto tag line of feeding the world while we kill it with chemicals ? 

I don't want anyone to die. Not my kids, not your kids, not your third cousins dog groomer. But who are we to say? Would you rather have fewer people, with stronger bodies and resolve, than millions of sick folks barely hanging on without their daily meds? And yeah - by my definition I wouldn't be here either. I mean, isn't this supposed to be god's call? Does his "plan" include so many sick children, sick young people, 40 year olds who's bodies are less able than my 86 year old grandpa ? 

It doesn't seem the trade off is working so well - other than numbing a bunch of brains and creating a legion of zombies.


----------



## PrettyPaisley

handymama said:


> And honestly I wouldn't wish the warts on anybody. The hpv vaccine also protects against the most common strains that cause the warts.



Yeah - what you described sounds brutal. I can't imagine. 

But I'm not so sure the vaccine is the silver bullet when perfectly healthy girls are being buried from a vaccine that Merck wouldn't develop with Rick Perry's money promises.


----------



## watcher

PrettyPaisley said:


> So we've traded children blinded by German measles for scores of kids with what we now write off as normal issues.


Yes. 




PrettyPaisley said:


> Autism - no longer a surprise to see a dozen or so kids in a classroom on the spectrum. Epi pen walls in the nurses offices so kids don't drop dead after lunch because a breeze blew a peanut crumb in their direction.


You ever think we have more sick kids because more sick people are surviving to reproduce? I know several adults who would have died in childhood in the past who now have children. And guess what a lot of their kids have the same health problems as the parents have/had. 

Think about it. Years ago someone with a severe peanut allergy most likely would not have lived long enough to marry and have kids. Today they do. And their allergic kids will live to produce even more allergic kids.




PrettyPaisley said:


> We rank in the 3rd world numbers of dead kids under five. Just because you don't have a dead baby doesn't mean it ISN'T STILL HAPPENING.


And what studies do you have to show why we rank where we do?


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## handymama

Wow. I didn't even know there were people like this. Kind of like Hitler, wanting to build a stronger race by removing the inferior ones. I'm pretty freaked out right now. Don't think I will visit this thread again.


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## PrettyPaisley

watcher said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You ever think we have more sick kids because more sick people are surviving to reproduce? I know several adults who would have died in childhood in the past who now have children. And guess what a lot of their kids have the same health problems as the parents have/had.
> 
> Think about it. Years ago someone with a severe peanut allergy most likely would not have lived long enough to marry and have kids. Today they do. And their allergic kids will live to produce even more allergic kids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And what studies do you have to show why we rank where we do?



You think about it. Years ago there weren't deadly peanut allergies raging through the halls !!!! 
But we did have Epi pens years ago. I carried one with me for a very long time when I started taking "allergy" shots to cure what was eventually cured by cleaning living. 

And you're wrong; allergic kids don't produce allergic kids anymore than asthmatic kids produce asthmatic kids. At least not the ones who wake up and figure out how to end the cycle.


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## arabian knight

handymama said:


> Wow. I didn't even know there were people like this. Kind of like Hitler, wanting to build a stronger race by removing the inferior ones. I'm pretty freaked out right now. Don't think I will visit this thread again.


Yes it is the new religion, these anti vac folks have to worship something so they are hanging onto untruths, hype at its a very best, and misinformation that has been spreading like mad since the net came on board. They now have a New Pulpit the Internet to spread such misinformation and widely hyped up untruths.


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## handymama

Well, we tell the Jehovah's witnesses to go away too. It usually works around here. So that'll have to be my philosophy I guess, cuz we can argue til we're blue in the face and not change any opinions. I'm out lol.


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## Molly Mckee

PrettyPaisley said:


> Please do research before you buy this hook, line and sinker. If the vaccine works it is for just a couple strains of HPV that could lead to cervical cancer which is very slow growing. If you are of high risk a Pap smear can be detect precancerous cells and more often than not with a healthy immune system your body will clear these cells up in their own. This I have lived. I did the precancerous cells thing when I was 23-24 years old. After three years of twice annual Pap smears to keep an eye on things and with no further issues - they were gone.
> 
> Meanwhile, young girls are dropping dead after this series of shots. While common sense says telling girls to simply avoid a risky situation should be enough - most acknowledge it takes more than a promise of heaven to get that to happen. Teach your children well but nourish their bodies and keep them out of the system.


Pretty Paisley you still have not given us any reason to believe you have any knowledge about any scientific studies or that you even understand that "I feel" and "I am a parent "are not a reason to accept what you claim. You might want to try to understand how scientific studies work, or how to read research. You are not qualified to give advise, and you don't seem interested in learning anything. If you believe it, you seem to think we should too, and that isn't how research works. I do hope people who read this will do their own research, looking at true studies and not self serving articles that go back to the the same unscientific studies. I would also skip the ones that tell you how to donate to help in the fight. They seem to have a good reason for existing, and it isn't a scientific one.

You could be really causing problems for any child who's parent is depending on your opinion, and you don't even understand how wrong you are. 
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## unregistered358967

I do enjoy reading the different points of view on these threads, but remember there is an ignore button here which helps in case you still want to visit but not be annoyed.  I believe we can agree to disagree on many points.

Sorry -this was for handymama who is relatively new here. I hate to see anyone chased off.


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## PrettyPaisley

Oh for Pete's sake. 

Yes, not participating in medical wellness programs is akin to Hitler. Because history has shown us just what a raging hippie he really was.


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## handymama

Lady, you ain't no hippy. Hippies wanna spread the peace and love, not the diphtheria and hpv.


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## where I want to

I think there might be something to consider in the idea that vaccinating children so much causes some problem but having seen pre some vaccine times personally (not all vaccines just some) and having suffered through measles, chicken pox and mumps in the same year, along with accompanying encephalitis, the effects of not vaccinating on a large scale are a hundred times worse than the unclear and not convincing effects of vaccinating.
If you want to eliminate the effects of vaccinations, then lobby for vaccination improvement, not run down the path of mass return of disease you have only the vaguest idea about.
The bottom line with all the proof of problems attributed to vaccines is that it is all all all opinion and nothing more.


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## PrettyPaisley

I didn't say I was a hippie but I sure as crap am not Hitler. I'm trying to stay away from the mad scientist, egomaniacal, power hungry, bank rolled eugenics-types and keep kids off the B0 trains. 

But since you brought it up - let's just go with the idea that they were passing out condoms at Woodstock and call it a fact. While your situation is horribly unfortunate, I'm sure more than hpv was being passed around there.


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## Molly Mckee

I give up. You don't have any facts to back up your position Paisley. You and those you follow just make them up as they go along. I just hope your girls don't pay the price.


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## Molly Mckee

One other thing---do you really think the medical malpractice insurance companies would let the doctors or their staff give these vaccines if there was any even slightly legitimate proof that they could be dangerous? Have you ever seen a case where the person getting the vaccine got a huge settlement?


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## handymama

You know, my ex husband always thought everybody was out to get him. And I told him, look, you just ain't that important. The whole world ain't out to get us all with these vaccines. They were created by scientists to help people, not hurt them. I really don't think, when my obstetrician suggested I get a flu shot while pregnant, that she was being all evil and trying to get money off me. I think she was trying to help me with not getting sick when I worked in a nursing home, was pregnant, anemic, and already dehydrated. I don't think the vaccines are evil. I do think they need to figure out what's up with all the autism nowadays. And I feel like the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks.


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## handymama

And you brought up hippies, not me. What I meant by the Hitler comment is you seem to think that the diseases are natural selection. That those who succumb to them, vaccinated or not, were genetically the weaker link and should go on and die out. That's just horrible. You can't do that to people. You don't say well, my kid has asthma, must mean he's got bad genes. Lets make sure he doesn't reproduce. Creepy!


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## haley1

Molly Mckee said:


> One other thing---do you really think the medical malpractice insurance companies would let the doctors or their staff give these vaccines if there was any even slightly legitimate proof that they could be dangerous? Have you ever seen a case where the person getting the vaccine got a huge settlement?


??? Ronald Reagan created legislation that caregivers and manufacturers are not liable for and cannot be sued for anything vaccine related


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## Molly Mckee

There are plenty of thing that you are not supposed to be able to sue for, but attornies always find a way around it. I haven't heard of anyone even trying, probably because you can't win a case when all real evidence says you are wrong.


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## haypoint

haley1 said:


> ??? Ronald Reagan created legislation that caregivers and manufacturers are not liable for and cannot be sued for anything vaccine related


Do you believe that legislation was put in place to protect and permit Big Pharmaceuticals to poison us?
Do you think that legislation was put in place to put a stop to all the nonsensical Anti-Vaccine fringe groups clogging up the system with frivolous law suits, needlessly driving up Health Care costs?

Pick one.


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## BlackFeather

I've noticed that some say there is no scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism or other problems, maybe so, are these the same types of scientists who have been caught fudging data to prove global warming? I keep seeing studies withdrawn due to scientific fraud for various topics. If you play the game you get grants, if you don't play, you don't get money for research. I say again who can you trust anymore? Maybe vaccines are ok and maybe not, I have found that the more I learn, the less I trust. We know out government lies to us, unemployment isn't 6 to 7 percent and inflation isn't 2 percent, do we trust the CDC a government organization? I agree vaccines are generally useful, but are they putting things in the vaccines that aren't beneficial, either due to cost considerations or worse? 
I never gave conspiracy theorist, the time of day. My father always said the John Birch society were conspiracy nut jobs. Then I saw a couple of years ago a speech given by the president of the J.B. society back in the late 80's, most every thing he warned about has or is coming to pass. As much as I dislike Alex Jones, I have to admit a lot of what he said 5 to 8 years ago looks to be happening. I still don't like him, but I don't dismiss these people out of hand any more, I just file away what they say in my mind and see if it comes to pass later. My opinion is the same with vaccine conspirators, I honestly don't know, but I file away what they say and wait. In the mean time it's up to each of us what we do with the information we have. To Be vaccinated or Not To Be vaccinated that is the question.


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## JeffreyD

haypoint said:


> Do you believe that legislation was put in place to protect and permit Big Pharmaceuticals to poison us?
> Do you think that legislation was put in place to put a stop to all the nonsensical Anti-Vaccine fringe groups clogging up the system with frivolous law suits, needlessly driving up Health Care costs?
> 
> Pick one.


No, I pick both!


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## Evons hubby

JeffreyD said:


> No, I pick both!


well I pick neither! and choose to pick my nose instead!


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## MoonRiver

> A study published earlier this month re-analyzing data put out by the CDC in 2004, claims to have found a statistically significant association between autism and the age at which the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine is given to infant African-American boys.


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...m-with-vaccines-but-theres-more-to-the-story/

Yesterday I was discussing with my doctor, the APOE gene and how it relates to both Alzheimers and heavy metal detox. 

THE APOE gene has three common forms: (Mayo Clinic)


APOE e2 &#8212; the least common &#8212; appears to reduce the risk of Alzheimer's.
APOE e4 &#8212; a little more common &#8212; appears to increase the risk of Alzheimer's.
APOE e3 &#8212; the most common &#8212; doesn't seem to affect the risk of Alzheimer's.
You get 1 copy of the APOE gene from your mother and one from your father. So 2 APOE e4's is not good.

The way my doc explained it to me in terms of heavy metals is e2 is like 2 arms, e3 like 1 arm, and e4 like no arm. Since you have 2 genes, you have APOE x and APOE y. Add the number of arms for x and y. In my case, I am e3/e4 (which increases my likelihood of getting Alzheimers). Regarding heavy metals, I have 1 arm (1+0) to sweep heavy metals out of my body. 1 arm isn't enough (for my particular case), so I need supplements to help get the toxins out of my body.

So with vaccinations, the same type of thing applies. For some kids, the aluminum that was in some vaccinations wasn't a problem, but for others with a different genetic makeup it was.

(The 23andme genetic test is $99)


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## handymama

Moonriver, I find that fascinating.


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## MoonRiver

haypoint said:


> Do you believe that legislation was put in place to protect and permit Big Pharmaceuticals to poison us?
> Do you think that legislation was put in place to put a stop to all the nonsensical Anti-Vaccine fringe groups clogging up the system with frivolous law suits, needlessly driving up Health Care costs?
> 
> Pick one.


Neither. It was put in place to protect one of the biggest and richest lobbyists there is.


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## MoonRiver

handymama said:


> Moonriver, I find that fascinating.


 I guess Alzheimers hasn't kicked in yet because I was able to remember what she and I discussed a day ago.


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## Jim-mi

Go to Naturalnews.com

And if you disbelieve all the stuff Mike Adams has written and Lab proved, then I feel sorry for your closed-mindness attitude ....

All those alphebit agencys that ban Mercury......
But yet nothing is said about the Mercury in vaccines . . .??????

Because of the strangle hold BIG PHARMA has on this country .......
They can not be sued . . . it is law

Yes Mike Adams has proved, in his lab, toxic Mercury is in vaccines.......


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## unregistered358967

So maybe I'm not far off base when I suggested earlier that vaccine could possibly 'switch on' autism in kids who are predisposed to it?


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## handymama

Sounds possible. Maybe we ought to do a bit of genetic research before we vaccinate kids.


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## MoonRiver

Jax-mom said:


> So maybe I'm not far off base when I suggested earlier that vaccine could possibly 'switch on' autism in kids who are predisposed to it?


NIH claims APOE is not related to autism, but I didn't read their research so I don't know if they looked at indirect links.


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## unregistered358967

I know- I was speaking of genetics in general. . I still think there is so much to learn....I guess time will tell.


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## Evons hubby

Jim-mi said:


> Yes Mike Adams has proved, in his lab, toxic Mercury is in vaccines.......


Yes, mercury has been used in vaccines, in very minute amounts as a preservative. This was one of complaints raised by the antivaxx crowd, and it has since been replaced with other, safer, preservatives. Even with those trace amounts of mercury in the vaccines, there were still no links between the use of those vaccines and autism. (or anything else for that matter) Now, just as a fer instance.. when I was a kid in school we played with mercury bare handed! nobody thought much about it back then... other than you shouldnt ingest it... and here I am, 63 years old, some fifty odd years later, and I am very much alive and well! Of course back then we took guns to school too, and nobody ever shot anyone where I went to school!


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## arabian knight

That is correct. And even as a kid I PLAYED with mercury. I remember plying with it while rolling is around on the kitchen table also. Neat stuff~!
And gee i am in my 60's now with no ILL effect with the things I played with back in the 50's. Still alive and like a dead mule can't kick, Life is good. LOL


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## PrettyPaisley

I recall "playing" with mercury. But I wasn't 3 months old, my blood brain barrier was fully developed and we weren't allowed to play with it by injecting it into our blood stream. Silly grown ups...always squelching all the fun !! What's is the difference between a little "spin the mercury" beads and playing doctor?? And then they went and put a stop to eating lead paint ! Geez...poor kids today. So deprived !!!


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## PrettyPaisley

Jax-mom said:


> So maybe I'm not far off base when I suggested earlier that vaccine could possibly 'switch on' autism in kids who are predisposed to it?



I think that's an awesome theory. On the outside it looks hit or miss, but why couldn't it be possible that, with everybody being different, toxins manifest as autistic symptoms in one kid, as eczema in another, as a life threatening food allergy in some, as encephalitis in others and SIDS in the most tragic cases ? 

The truth is, as long as there is no demand for real research (instead of paying lip service with a couple of peer reviewed bogus studies that resulted in witch hunts) - we will always have the loud crowd sitting back and saying, "show me a real study for all this poppycock" when they KNOW their demands can't be met. It's all just hysteria and cult like behavior from the fringe. We won't EVER know the truth...at least not on paper. So the decision has to be left up to the individual to do the best they can (until the ignorant masses come with pitchforks to burn you at the stake for sorcery). You muster the courage to follow your soul but no matter which path you choose you have to pray that the universe finds favor in your kid.


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## haypoint

Since the vast majority of birth defects, physical and mental have been proven to directly relate to drug and alcohol use by parents, blaming a congenital mental disorder on vaccines is a way to deflect the blame/remorse/guilt of the parents onto anything except their behavior.

Congenital defects are often not recognized early or manifest themselves later on. Bi-Polar disorder often isn't recognized or present until the person is in their late teens. Might as well blame Bi-polar on acne creams, because it was recognized after puberty. 
Autism is no longer lumped into "that kid ain't right in the head". We now recognize a whole spectrum of mental disorders within that category. Asperger's Syndrome is within that spectrum. Many people with this form of Autism go on to be very productive citizens. One could argue that Sheldon Cooper on the TV show Big Bang Theory is a textbook example of Asperger's Syndrome. Temple Grandin is another. Highly intelligent, sees the world differently and poor social skills. Nearly every University faces the challenges of Asperger' Syndrome students. They often have no trouble making the intelligence requirements, but their lack of social adequacy can create turmoil within the student population. I suspect some (many?) Silicon Valley inventors possess this disorder. Computer geeks to the max.

These are disorders that were not recognized in years past.

As far as Mercury goes, have you had your teeth pulled, yet? Mercury used in filling teeth. Can't be worried about a tiny, tiny amount in vaccines of the past while you walk around with a mouth full of Mercury. IMHO

Anyone with more than a passing interest in learning about Autism should read Dr. Temple Grandin's books on Autism. I find her books on humane treatment of livestock to be informative as she has personally designed most of the worlds cattle confinement and movement structures. She suffers from Autism and teaches at Colorado State University.


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## Vahomesteaders

Actually they just released a report about the Mercury in filings leading to several brain problems and vision problems.


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## haypoint

If drugs and alcohol are great contributors to birth defects and proper pre-natal care reduces birth defects and the mother's health and proper diet influence the baby's health, would you think that the Black babies born that never received Birth Certificates would have a higher or lower amount of birth defects, including Autism without vaccinations? 
Including subjects into any study without the complete information available skews the data.
If you were studying the causes car crashes and some of the accident reports only listed the make of the vehicle, but lacked the time of day, weather conditions, traffic amounts, age of driver, day of the week, etc. you might conclude that the cause of accidents was because they were driving a Ford F-150, the most common vehicle on the road. Lack of complete data leads to wrong conclusions. Now do you understand why children without birth certificates (or the corresponding information derived from that certificate) were not included in the study? Or must you support your conspiracy theory?


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## haypoint

Vahomesteaders said:


> Actually they just released a report about the Mercury in filings leading to several brain problems and vision problems.


Well, what are you waiting for? Get them filings out before it is too late.....


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## PrettyPaisley

Still walking around with a mouthful of mercury and I'm sure if I had time to sit and ponder I could relate it to issues. Instead I'll focus on overcoming said health issues with a clean diet and keep skipping the kombucha because of dental choices made for me by others. Thanks for asking. 

Tobacco was targeted by politicians driven by liberals who demonize free choice. There was $$$$$ in it - just like with vaccines. I have zero doubt that at the rate we are going - there will be a push by normally level headed folks who are terrified of cooties to force a gov't mandate on vaccines. While most level head folks won't push as hard, the gov't will play the "greater good" card and it won't be long before we are all a bunch of zombies with our brains oozing from our ears.


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## unregistered358967

Yes, while the experts do look at the mother's behavior while she was pregnant, they also look at family history to see if there might be a familial component. Not everything is a result of something the mother did wrong. 

And yes, the DSM is now in their 5th edition and one of the biggest changes was lumping into an umbrella diagnosis, simply 'Autistic Spectrum Disorder' (asperger is no longer used). It also changed how long symptoms needed to be present. That book gets revised about every 10 years.

It's very hard to determine if babies have any form of Autistic Spectrum Disorder because one of the checking points deals with pragmatic language (involves nonverbal cues)..so most parents don't even think to test that early, nor would it probably do any good. I'm not sure if there's a genetic test for babies - haven't done any research on that, but as far as neuropsych testing, it's usually done anywhere from 12-18 months, once communication (or lack of) has started.


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## unregistered358967

haypoint said:


> Well, what are you waiting for? Get them filings out before it is too late.....


I actually had one taken out - but what a pain. I wouldn't recommend it! They had to drill it out and took too much tooth out which resulted in a crown, then a root canal.

So I decided to just let sleeping dogs lie. I'm a fairly stable person though, so if I starting acting as mad as a hatter then I'll go from there.


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## watcher

BlackFeather said:


> I've noticed that some say there is no scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism or other problems, maybe so, are these the same types of scientists who have been caught fudging data to prove global warming? I keep seeing studies withdrawn due to scientific fraud for various topics. If you play the game you get grants, if you don't play, you don't get money for research. I say again who can you trust anymore? Maybe vaccines are ok and maybe not, I have found that the more I learn, the less I trust. We know out government lies to us, unemployment isn't 6 to 7 percent and inflation isn't 2 percent, do we trust the CDC a government organization? I agree vaccines are generally useful, but are they putting things in the vaccines that aren't beneficial, either due to cost considerations or worse?
> I never gave conspiracy theorist, the time of day. My father always said the John Birch society were conspiracy nut jobs. Then I saw a couple of years ago a speech given by the president of the J.B. society back in the late 80's, most every thing he warned about has or is coming to pass. As much as I dislike Alex Jones, I have to admit a lot of what he said 5 to 8 years ago looks to be happening. I still don't like him, but I don't dismiss these people out of hand any more, I just file away what they say in my mind and see if it comes to pass later. My opinion is the same with vaccine conspirators, I honestly don't know, but I file away what they say and wait. In the mean time it's up to each of us what we do with the information we have. To Be vaccinated or Not To Be vaccinated that is the question.


The difference is the vaccine studies are open and have been themselves studied. Remember there are plenty of lawyers out there who would LOVE to find even the smallest link because it'd mean a bigger payday than the tobacco lawsuits.


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## watcher

I have a question for ya'll. You don't vaccinate your kids due to the dangers so do you let them ride in your car? From my quick google searching it seems even if you believe all the anti-vax data your child stands a much larger chance of being killed or severely injured each time you take them for a ride then being vaccinated.


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## arabian knight

There are studies right now going on that are seeing if getting married later in life has anything to do with it. The thinking is the male sperm changes some as the man gets older and with many folks now waiting till later in life to have children they are studying if the male sperm has changed enough to cause said problems in the offspring.


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## Vahomesteaders

arabian knight said:


> There are studies right now going on that are seeing if getting married later in life has anything to do with it. The thinking is the male sperm changes some as the man gets older and with many folks now waiting till later in life to have children they are studying if the male sperm has changed enough to cause said problems in the offspring.


Actually many of the autistic kids I know are from much younger parents. My Sil has 5 kids. One is autistic. Her first at 17. None of the others are. I know several other autistic kids born to teen mom's. So not sure if age plays a part. Oh and her first child is the only one who was vaccinated.


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## unregistered358967

watcher said:


> I have a question for ya'll. You don't vaccinate your kids due to the dangers so do you let them ride in your car? From my quick google searching it seems even if you believe all the anti-vax data your child stands a much larger chance of being killed or severely injured each time you take them for a ride then being vaccinated.


I'll bite. My kids (now older) are vaccinated, but I spaced them out as much as it was allowed and we do (did) only what was necessary for entering school(s). They ride in the car, first with carseats, then booster seats, now seatbelts. I'm an awesome driver, and my son is now learning and is also very safe. We don't skydive, or bungee jump. We don't smoke, do drugs or drink or even fly in airplanes often. When it's possible to minimize risk for my children, I do, but I know I can't protect them from everything. 

I belive there's risk in anything and it's by the grace of God that I'm even here typing this in my boring little world. But I also think there's so much more to the vaccine issue than we know at this point in time...just my very humble 2C. I'm not here to argue with anybody and I'm not necessarily anti-vax, but not pro either. To me it's unfortunately a necessary evil because we moved around so much when the kids were young. I think my POV comes about from me being raised Christian Scientist and not being vaccinated until it was necessary to enter college. I suppose my parents did the exempt thing when I was younger.


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## arabian knight

Vahomesteaders said:


> Actually many of the autistic kids I know are from much younger parents. My Sil has 5 kids. One is autistic. Her first at 17. None of the others are. I know several other autistic kids born to teen mom's. So not sure if age plays a part. Oh and her first child is the only one who was vaccinated.


 This is what I am talking about.
And one more thing on the website Autism Speaks NOT ONE mention about canine as a cause.
Now THAT in itself is interesting. 


> The study found that the incremental risk of having a child with autism increased by 18 percent â nearly one fifth â for every five-year increase in the mother's age.
> 
> The study may help answer questions surrounding why autism rates have risen in recent decades. Some had blamed vaccinations geared to fending off other, unrelated diseases, but studies have not supported that line of thinking. Meanwhile, more and more women are having babies later in life.
> 
> Advanced parental age was already a known risk factor for having a child with autism. However, previous research has shown contradictory results regarding whether it is the mother, the father or both who contribute most to the increased risk of autism. For example, one study reported that fathers over 40 were six times more likely than fathers under 30 to have a child with autism.


http://www.livescience.com/6080-autism-rates-higher-children-older-moms.html

So in other words NOBODY knows and no scientific study has shown that ANY substance taken or injected cause said problems. or what causes it Period.,


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## haypoint

Jax-mom said:


> I'll bite. My kids (now older) are vaccinated, but I spaced them out as much as it was allowed and we do (did) only what was necessary for entering school(s). They ride in the car, first with carseats, then booster seats, now seatbelts. I'm an awesome driver, and my son is now learning and is also very safe. We don't skydive, or bungee jump. We don't smoke, do drugs or drink or even fly in airplanes often. When it's possible to minimize risk for my children, I do, but I know I can't protect them from everything.
> 
> I belive there's risk in anything and it's by the grace of God that I'm even here typing this in my boring little world. But I also think there's so much more to the vaccine issue than we know at this point in time...just my very humble 2C. I'm not here to argue with anybody and I'm not necessarily anti-vax, but not pro either. To me it's unfortunately a necessary evil because we moved around so much when the kids were young. I think my POV comes about from me being raised Christian Scientist and not being vaccinated until it was necessary to enter college. I suppose my parents did the exempt thing when I was younger.


It is great that you are a good driver, but you also realize that good driver or not, another driver can kill you or your children. But you do what you can to minimize that with seatbelts. In the same way that you try to protect your children with proper nutrition. But if you don't vaccinate, their exposure to a life threatening disease will trump your other efforts. No mother wants to attend their child's funeral wishing she had buckled their seat belt or got their vaccinations. You can refuse to buckle them up, citing a story of someone that was trapped in a burning car by a seat belt. You can refuse to get them vaccinated citing a flimsy report of immunization caused Autism. Ultimately it is a choice you'll have trouble rationalizing about.

Statistically, late in life babies have higher risk for birth defects. Don't know if it is guy's crusty old sperm or women's crusty old eggs. But birth defects can be traced to both parents' reproductive condition.


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## doingitmyself

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but someone without the proper credentials attempting to sway others to endanger their children is downright criminal.


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## MoonRiver

haypoint said:


> Well, what are you waiting for? Get them filings out before it is too late.....


If it wasn't so expensive, I would be in the dentist office today having them removed. But since government and insurance companies won't acknowledge the damage caused by amalgams, neither insurance nor Medicare will pay to have them removed. That day is coming, but probably to late to help me.

Mercury binds to "ports" in the body that good metals need to bind to. The result is a deficiency in good metals like magnesium, selenium, zinc, etc. I take the max allowable dosage of zinc every day and still have a deficiency. I take 2 g of magnesium a day and same thing. Somehow I have to get the mercury out of my body.

Mercury amalgams themselves are not the problem, if they don't leak. The problem is when the mercury is leaking out of the tooth into the mouth and into the bloodstream.


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## Vahomesteaders

doingitmyself said:


> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but someone without the proper credentials attempting to sway others to endanger their children is downright criminal.


What gives proper credentials? Docs go to school and study the public books available to us. They read the same studies available to us and a peer says ok you learned what we wanted you to so now your a professional and can spread the word we taught you. Well anyone can read and study material facts and reviews and come up with the truth or an opinion. And in this case both opinions have supporting facts and studies. It's just your definition of credentials is skewed.


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## MoonRiver

doingitmyself said:


> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but someone without the proper credentials attempting to sway others to endanger their children is downright criminal.


It's like global warming. Hundreds of scientists (or doctors) are often wrong. Just look at the harm the food pyramid has caused. Same with a low fat diet. 

Credentials mean very little. In fact, being credentialed could be said to be "indoctrinated".


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## PrettyPaisley

arabian knight said:


> so in other words nobody knows and no scientific study has shown that any substance taken or injected cause said problems. Or what causes it period.,


*Because no one has the cojones to do any!!!!!!! *


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## PrettyPaisley

doingitmyself said:


> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but someone without the proper credentials attempting to sway others to endanger their children is downright criminal.


Let me tell you something. Being the mama is the only credential I need. 

When I started searching for information there was NO ONE willing to give me the answer. NO ONE. Everywhere I looked it was information and "do the research and make up your own mind". And now I know why. It's the least informed and most indoctrinated that want to tell you to shut your mouth and line up for shots. It's the most informed that force you to do your own research. And when you DO the work - rarely will you find someone who is informed that will continue with the vax schedule the CDC lays out.


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## Jim-mi

And just because a person has a Dr. credential does NOT mean they are wise.
They have been indoctrinated to a narrow amount of ideas..
For a Med Dr. it is huge on using pushing drugs to mask a condition.
Med Dr's receive a whopping 2 hours about "diet" in all their years of education . . .wow...

My brother-in-law has a Dr. "credential" . . . . . .And yet he has trouble knowing which end of a screw driver to hold onto..........


----------



## Molly Mckee

Let's see do I believe a high school dropout who happens to be a mother or a number of well trained researchers and doctors? Do I believe the scientific studies that I do understand or the rants of the uneducated? Do I believe those who get a paycheck for their work or those who promote an idea, push it to the uneducated, and ask for "donations" to support their work? Especially when there is not one reputable study showing a link between autism and vaccines, and many studies showing vaccines are safe. The good they do and the lives they save is very well documented, and countless children have been saved by vaccinations.


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## arabian knight

Very well said. That is the plain truth.


----------



## MoonRiver

Molly Mckee said:


> Let's see do I believe a high school dropout who happens to be a mother or a number of well trained researchers and doctors? Do I believe the scientific studies that I do understand or the rants of the uneducated? Do I believe those who get a paycheck for their work or those who promote an idea, push it to the uneducated, and ask for "donations" to support their work? Especially when there is not one reputable study showing a link between autism and vaccines, and many studies showing vaccines are safe. The good they do and the lives they save is very well documented, and countless children have been saved by vaccinations.


I just did a bing search and found several scientific studies that show a link between vaccines and autism. I'd comment on your other points, but they're moot as your basic premise is incorrect.

A word of advice. Personal attacks seldom win an argument.


----------



## arabian knight

Molly Mckee said:


> Let's see do I believe a high school dropout who happens to be a mother or a number of well trained researchers and doctors? Do I believe the scientific studies that I do understand or the rants of the uneducated? Do I believe those who get a paycheck for their work or those who promote an idea, push it to the uneducated, and ask for "donations" to support their work? Especially when there is not one reputable study showing a link between autism and vaccines, and many studies showing vaccines are safe. The good they do and the lives they save is very well documented, and countless children have been saved by vaccinations.


----------



## MoonRiver

arabian knight said:


>


Come on AK. Post of the day for a personal attack?


----------



## doingitmyself

Being a momma does not give one the right that one should try to sway other folks not to vaccinate their children. If one does not want to vaccinate, then so be it but don't be telling other mommas they are wrong. In fact other mommas could claim the one is trying to harm their children with ones opinion ... and that is all it is, is the ones opinion. Ones opinion is not the law. Nor is it unbiased. It may or may not be correct. 

I personally believe vaccines are by far worth using. But i would not tell someone that they should vaccinate your kids. That's on the mamma's head, not mine. 

Why do some thing their opinion is any more important or worthy.


----------



## arabian knight

MoonRiver said:


> Come on AK. Post of the day for a personal attack?


Personal Attack??? Ah come on.... Nothing was mention on who or even mention anybody at all in that post. How in the world do you or anybody get a personal attack out of that one post???


----------



## MoonRiver

arabian knight said:


> Personal Attack??? Ah come on.... Nothing was mention on who or even mention anybody at all in that post. How in the world do you or anybody get a personal attack out of that one post???


It was the 3rd or 4th time in this thread she made the same attack on PP.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Molly Mckee said:


> Let's see do I believe a high school dropout who happens to be a mother or a number of well trained researchers and doctors? Do I believe the scientific studies that I do understand or the rants of the uneducated? Do I believe those who get a paycheck for their work or those who promote an idea, push it to the uneducated, and ask for "donations" to support their work? Especially when there is not one reputable study showing a link between autism and vaccines, and many studies showing vaccines are safe. The good they do and the lives they save is very well documented, and countless children have been saved by vaccinations.


How about a college graduate with a bachelor of science degree who happens to be a parent? There are very valid studies linking the autism outbreak of the last 10 years to vaccination.


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## MoonRiver

doingitmyself said:


> Being a momma does not give you the right that you should try to sway other folks not to vaccinate their children. If you do not want to vaccinate, then so be it but don't be telling other mommas they are wrong. In fact other mommas could claim you are trying to harm their children with your opinion ... and that is all it is, is your opinion. Your opinion is not the law. Nor is it unbiased. It may or may not be correct.
> 
> I personally believe vaccines are by far worth using. But i would not tell you that you should vaccinate your kids. That's on your head, not mine.
> 
> Why do think your opinion is any more important or worthy.


I went back and reread the 1st 4 pages of this thread. PP has only said what she does and why she does it. I don't think she ever tried to "sway other folks not to vaccinate their children". The rest of your post also seems to have no basis in what PP actually posted.

I don't agree with her 100%, but I agree a lot more than I disagree.

Epigenetics is a relatively new field and most doctors and researchers don't have a clue. It's the ability to turn genes on and off by controlling environmental factors. 

Just getting kids outside and playing in the dirt goes a long way toward having healthy kids. Add plenty of sunshine and keep them away from RF as much as possible, and their brains should also be in good shape. If PP's kids maintain this type of lifestyle throughout adulthood, I bet they remain healthier than their peers.


----------



## Molly Mckee

I was not attacking PP. However every time this comes up she is one of the people that think their opinion is more important than other peoples and she does not explain why---like a degree in --. experience in , or what ever. A lot of people read these posts and IMO trying to influence others not to vaccinate is wrong, very wrong. Reading and understanding some scientific studies can be hard, so it is easier to go with feelings, but feelings in this case can cost children a lot. Some of us older members have had some of the diseases that no longer effect many people in the US, or we have seen the damage they can do. They can come back, they are in other parts of the world, and personally I would hate to see any child suffer with polio or any other preventable disease.
I don't want to see kids with Autism either, but a link between autism and vaccines has not been found, even with very extensive testing. There are so many variables in children, including how they were conceived, age of parents, threat of miscarriage, exposure to chemicals and on and on. I think there may well be something or things causing more autism, if in fact there is more and not an enlarged group of identifying symptoms. Finding a cause would be wonderful, when you continue to say the cause is the one thing that has been extensively tested and proven not to be a problem, you are directing money and talent away from finding the reason we are seeing more autism.


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## doingitmyself

^^ yes that right there^^ :goodjob:


----------



## MoonRiver

Molly Mckee said:


> I was not attacking PP. However every time this comes up she is one of the people that think their opinion is more important than other peoples and she does not explain why---like a degree in --. experience in , or what ever. A lot of people read these posts and IMO trying to influence others not to vaccinate is wrong, very wrong. Reading and understanding some scientific studies can be hard, so it is easier to go with feelings, but feelings in this case can cost children a lot. Some of us older members have had some of the diseases that no longer effect many people in the US, or we have seen the damage they can do. They can come back, they are in other parts of the world, and personally I would hate to see any child suffer with polio or any other preventable disease.
> I don't want to see kids with Autism either, but a link between autism and vaccines has not been found, even with very extensive testing. There are so many variables in children, including how they were conceived, age of parents, threat of miscarriage, exposure to chemicals and on and on. I think there may well be something or things causing more autism, if in fact there is more and not an enlarged group of identifying symptoms. Finding a cause would be wonderful, when you continue to say the cause is the one thing that has been extensively tested and proven not to be a problem, you are directing money and talent away from finding the reason we are seeing more autism.


vaccines are a lot like food. Food manufacturers keep looking for additives that extend shelf life. So the Cherios you buy today isn't the same Cherios you had as a kid. Same with vaccines. They keep looking for substances that can extend the life of the vaccine. And just like with food additives, some of the stuff they use is toxic. 

They try to use small amounts which gets them by the FDA, but is a small amount of poison really OK? It wasn't in the polio vaccine you had as a kid. it wasn't in any of the vaccines you had as a kid. So you can't directly compare the vaccine you had as a kid to the vaccine that is offered today.


----------



## vicki in NW OH

NBC News had a vaccination segment on earlier this week. What I found interesting is that the demographic for not vaccinating is upper middle class, highly educated.


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> vaccines are a lot like food. Food manufacturers keep looking for additives that extend shelf life. So the Cherios you buy today isn't the same Cherios you had as a kid. Same with vaccines. They keep looking for substances that can extend the life of the vaccine. And just like with food additives, some of the stuff they use is toxic.
> 
> They try to use small amounts which gets them by the FDA, but is a small amount of poison really OK? It wasn't in the polio vaccine you had as a kid. it wasn't in any of the vaccines you had as a kid. So you can't directly compare the vaccine you had as a kid to the vaccine that is offered today.


From what I read the thimerosal was added after a bout of illness that caused by a vaccine going bad. It has mostly been removed because of public pressure but that means the vaccines need more careful handling to be safe. 
It's always a trade off. But the one thing I am sure about is vaccinations changed the world for much better and now we have two generations who are ignorant of diseases that are still out there. I suspect there has been no change in the actual disease rate for genetically influenced diseases but that preventing the complications of the infamous "normal childhood diseases" has left what would have been previously assigned as a result of those illnesses to be clearer they stand seperately. Also when doctors and researchers are not fighting the fire fights of epidemics, they have time to spend on those conditions.


----------



## Evons hubby

Vahomesteaders said:


> There are very valid studies linking the autism outbreak of the last 10 years to vaccination.


there is a difference twixt a study and a valid study. just sayin. :shrug:


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## Vahomesteaders

Yvonne's hubby said:


> there is a difference twixt a study and a valid study. just sayin. :shrug:


When I say study we are taking about well respected universities and doctors.


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## where I want to

Vahomesteaders said:


> When I say study we are taking about well respected universities and doctors.


Post links if you're making allegations about specific studies. It helps if the study results have been duplicated. And if peer review found problems with the methodology. Size of the study is crucial as a result of 25 patients can be so far off as to be unusable while there are less issues with a study of 50,000.

A doctorate does not give authority to a study or theory in a non-related field. I read that one of the biggest citations for anti vaccine peopke was actually an opinion by a podiatrist. He may be doctor so-and-so but he has no more expertise than a doctor of english lit.


----------



## doingitmyself

vicki in NW OH said:


> NBC News had a vaccination segment on earlier this week. What I found interesting is that the demographic for not vaccinating is upper middle class, highly educated.


Or in other words yuppies that shop at Whole Foods stores ( no garden allowed in those kind of subdivisions) and eat "organic, clean, raw, or otherwise strange diet fads, drive a "luxury hybrid" ( LOLOL) and live in a 3500 sq ft home in the suburbs", recycle their plastic bags and otherwise consume far more everything than any two families need. Save the whale sticker on bumper, and has the stick family on the rear window including the 2 dogs and one cat.

Educated in one precise bit of technology that will be outdated in 3 years, student loans in the $200,000's range this are the folks that believe they know everything, 'cause they seen it on google!! Sure, yes sir ri, i will follow their lead!!!! ound:


----------



## Evons hubby

MoonRiver said:


> They try to use small amounts which gets them by the FDA, but is a small amount of poison really OK?


Yes, I am alive today thanks to small amounts of "deadly poisons". You dont get much more toxic than chemotherapy and radiation treatments. The cancer died... I didnt.  Then there are those other poisons taken in small amounts daily that keep people alive and above ground. Things like warfarin... more commonly known as cumadin, or rat bait!! Its used by millions to keep their blood from clotting and killing them. Our modern medical world relies heavily on "toxic" substances to keep us healthy and alive. Salt in low doses is one thing, most folks think of it as necessary to make their food palatable... but dont over do it... as little as 8 ounces ingested at one time will prove to be quite toxic... and without immediate treatment most likely deadly.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

where I want to said:


> Post links if you're making allegations about specific studies. It helps if the study results have been duplicated. And if peer review found problems with the methodology. Size of the study is crucial as a result of 25 patients can be so far off as to be unusable while there are less issues with a study of 50,000.
> 
> A doctorate does not give authority to a study or theory in a non-related field. I read that one of the biggest citations for anti vaccine peopke was actually an opinion by a podiatrist. He may be doctor so-and-so but he has no more expertise than a doctor of english lit.


Running out the door to get feed but her is a link to 20 studies that show the link. 
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/09/22-medical-studies-that-show-vaccines.html?m=1


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## MoonRiver

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yes, I am alive today thanks to small amounts of "deadly poisons". You dont get much more toxic than chemotherapy and radiation treatments. The cancer died... I didnt.  Then there are those other poisons taken in small amounts daily that keep people alive and above ground. Things like warfarin... more commonly known as cumadin, or rat bait!! Its used by millions to keep their blood from clotting and killing them. Our modern medical world relies heavily on "toxic" substances to keep us healthy and alive. Salt in low doses is one thing, most folks think of it as necessary to make their food palatable... but dont over do it... as little as 8 ounces ingested at one time will prove to be quite toxic... and without immediate treatment most likely deadly.


Totally different case. You are taking toxins as medicine, plus you were informed of what you were taking. People that get inoculations are taking toxins as toxins and are not told about it.


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> A doctorate does not give authority to a study or theory in a non-related field. I read that one of the biggest citations for anti vaccine peopke was actually an opinion by a podiatrist. He may be doctor so-and-so but he has no more expertise than a doctor of english lit.


So a medical doctor and an English Lit Ph D are equal when it comes to doing a scientific study related to medical treatment?


----------



## Evons hubby

MoonRiver said:


> Totally different case. You are taking toxins as medicine, plus you were informed of what you were taking. People that get inoculations are taking toxins as toxins and are not told about it.


I am pretty sure vaccines fall under the heading of "Medicine". and NO I was not informed of the contents of the chemo treatments... I was merely told that if I didnt sit in that chair over there and let them pump that bag of stuff (that looked like urine, and might have been as far as I know) into my veins that I might die. I took a chance, seemed the right thing to do at the time.


----------



## Evons hubby

MoonRiver said:


> So a medical doctor and an English Lit Ph D are equal when it comes to doing a scientific study related to medical treatment?


Yep, they both rate right up there with having your auto mechanic or the pool boy do it... none of them are qualified to be performing scientific studies. You are looking at entirely different fields here.


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> So a medical doctor and an English Lit Ph D are equal when it comes to doing a scientific study related to medical treatment?


Exactly the opposite of what I said.


----------



## MoonRiver

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yep, they both rate right up there with having your auto mechanic or the pool boy do it... none of them are qualified to be performing scientific studies. You are looking at entirely different fields here.


Not hardly. Statistics and research are a requirement for a Ph D.


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> Not hardly. Statistics and research are a requirement for a Ph D.


English lit statisticians?


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> Exactly the opposite of what I said.


Explain it then. Some of the best research ever has been done by people with a doctorate in a different, but related field. The scientific method and statistics are the same, regardless of subject.


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> English lit statisticians?


I guess not. I was in a Ph D program that came under the education department and it did require statistics and research. I guess it is only the hard and social sciences that require statistics.


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> Explain it then. Some of the best research ever has been done by people with a doctorate in a different, but related field. The scientific method and statistics are the same, regardless of subject.


Possible but very unlikely, especially in scientific fields where the knowledge needed to undertake a study is so esoteric that it mostly has a language that is unintelligible to outsiders. Related is one thing- totally unrelated is another. These days even closely allied fields can't talk to each other in detail.

I doubt an english lit PhD could even make sense of a scientific chemical analysis without, well, taking on another course of study leading to chem PhD. That is directly an issue even on these forums- it is so easy to respond to someone's reading of some study with a "but it doesn't say that." They simply can't derive the information they think they can when they can't even read the paper.


----------



## doingitmyself

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Yes, I am alive today thanks to small amounts of "deadly poisons". You dont get much more toxic than chemotherapy and radiation treatments. The cancer died... I didnt.  Then there are those other poisons taken in small amounts daily that keep people alive and above ground. Things like warfarin... more commonly known as cumadin, or rat bait!! Its used by millions to keep their blood from clotting and killing them. Our modern medical world relies heavily on "toxic" substances to keep us healthy and alive. Salt in low doses is one thing, most folks think of it as necessary to make their food palatable... but dont over do it... as little as 8 ounces ingested at one time will prove to be quite toxic... and without immediate treatment most likely deadly.


Very well said, and excellent point made!


----------



## MoonRiver

doingitmyself said:


> Very well said, and excellent point made!


Excellent point? Ask him if he would allow his grandkids to take the "medicine".


----------



## Evons hubby

MoonRiver said:


> Excellent point? Ask him if he would allow his grandkids to take the "medicine".


I try not to interfere in my kids lives too much... it would be up to them to decide if their children took the medicines prescribed by their doctors... That being said, IF one of my kids asked my opinion I would not only allow it, I would highly recommend it!


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> Possible but very unlikely, especially in scientific fields where the knowledge needed to undertake a study is so esoteric that it mostly has a language that is unintelligible to outsiders. Related is one thing- totally unrelated is another. These days even closely allied fields can't talk to each other in detail.
> 
> I doubt an english lit PhD could even make sense of a scientific chemical analysis without, well, taking on another course of study leading to chem PhD. That is directly an issue even on these forums- it is so easy to respond to someone's reading of some study with a "but it doesn't say that." They simply can't derive the information they think they can when they can't even read the paper.


You've got to get outside the box you are in. Most medical studies are funded by big pharma. Almost every thing you have learned in graduate school is wrong. Universities don't teach, they indoctrinate.

Read this http://chriskresser.com/about


> I returned to the U.S. to seek medical care. In the next few years I saw more than twenty doctors around the world and spent thousands of dollars in an effort to diagnose and treat my condition. No one could figure out why I felt the way I did or what to do about it.


Chris is one of the guys leading the charge in real science. Many of the guys and gals making the biggest breakthroughs are people who were sick and current western medicine couldn't help them. They kept digging until they started finding answers. They went into any area that they thought might be helpful. No boundaries. And their studies weren't funded by big pharma.


----------



## Evons hubby

MoonRiver said:


> Not hardly. Statistics and research are a requirement for a Ph D.


Hmmm..... Ph D. Piled higher and deeper... 

But are they required majors for a podiatrist? Or for an english lit teacher? 

Its kinda like HVAC was required for my two stepsons mechanical engineering degrees... they spent all two hours learning the rudimentary basics... but I wouldnt have hired either one to install, set up and balance out a ventilation system for a chicken house... much less for an office building or hospital, or school.


----------



## haypoint

vicki in NW OH said:


> NBC News had a vaccination segment on earlier this week. What I found interesting is that the demographic for not vaccinating is upper middle class, highly educated.


Of course. They shop at Whole Foods, buy organic, are mostly gluten intolerant and buy Lean Cuisine because they can't stand to see uncooked meat. Their kids go to upscale Charter Schools. Believe in Pro-Bionics.And they have bought into the Anti-Vaccine movement, so they have something to talk about at Soccer games.


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> You've got to get outside the box you are in. Most medical studies are funded by big pharma. Almost every thing you have learned in graduate school is wrong. Universities don't teach, they indoctrinate.
> 
> Read this http://chriskresser.com/about
> Chris is one of the guys leading the charge in real science. Many of the guys and gals making the biggest breakthroughs are people who were sick and current western medicine couldn't help them. They kept digging until they started finding answers. They went into any area that they thought might be helpful. No boundaries. And their studies weren't funded by big pharma.


Ask the people in West Africa if they would care for any of the issues raised here if they could get their hands on a Big Pharma vaccine for ebola.


----------



## haypoint

MoonRiver said:


> If it wasn't so expensive, I would be in the dentist office today having them removed. But since government and insurance companies won't acknowledge the damage caused by amalgams, neither insurance nor Medicare will pay to have them removed. That day is coming, but probably to late to help me.
> 
> Mercury binds to "ports" in the body that good metals need to bind to. The result is a deficiency in good metals like magnesium, selenium, zinc, etc. I take the max allowable dosage of zinc every day and still have a deficiency. I take 2 g of magnesium a day and same thing. Somehow I have to get the mercury out of my body.
> 
> Mercury amalgams themselves are not the problem, if they don't leak. The problem is when the mercury is leaking out of the tooth into the mouth and into the bloodstream.


If there was something in my mouth that was killing me, I'd grab the Channel Lock pliers and get it out. Beliefs and convictions without action is useless.

Be careful dosing yourself with Zinc. I once looked up Zinc Poisoning, in a Medical Dictionary and found, "see Lead". Well if you understand Lead Poisoning, you'd back off on that zinc, maybe.
We are all going to die and if that keeps you happy and busy between now and then, enjoy.


----------



## Evons hubby

haypoint said:


> If there was something in my mouth that was killing me, I'd grab the Channel Lock pliers and get it out. Beliefs and convictions without action is useless.
> 
> Be careful dosing yourself with Zinc. I once looked up Zinc Poisoning, in a Medical Dictionary and found, "see Lead". Well if you understand Lead Poisoning, you'd back off on that zinc, maybe.
> We are all going to die and if that keeps you happy and busy between now and then, enjoy.


Lead poisoning is especially lethal when its injected in quarter ounce doses at speeds in excess of 2000 ft per second.


----------



## doingitmyself

I have no PhD, after my name but my research is in direct agreement with Yvonnes hubby. MY research shows that when a Ruger .204 bullet that weighs 32 grains and is moving at 4100 fps and it contacts a Ground Hog. The GH dies even before the exploded body parts settle back to earth. 

So lead poisoning becomes a larger and larger concern in direct correlation with higher speed = higher splat factor= dead GH's.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

haypoint said:


> Of course. They shop at Whole Foods, buy organic, are mostly gluten intolerant and buy Lean Cuisine because they can't stand to see uncooked meat. Their kids go to upscale Charter Schools. Believe in Pro-Bionics.And they have bought into the Anti-Vaccine movement, so they have something to talk about at Soccer games.


Well we eat all organic food we grow, hunt and butcher. Are gluten free because my daughter has celiacs. We homeschool and make 30k a year on a very good year and I drive an old gmc pickup. But I read into the vaccines and discovered for myself the truth. Think about something. The anti vaccine scientist say abc causes and affects xyz and they break it down how it does so. The docs and those who are working for the pharmaceutical companies just come out and say abc does not cause or affect xyz. Trust us we know. Now tell me how many people who work for the pharmaceutical companies are going to shoot themselves in the foot by outing or even doubting their colleagues. ALL doctors and scientist work for the pharmaceutical companies and NOTHING they say is the truth because it's the largest for profit industry in the world.


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> Ask the people in West Africa if they would care for any of the issues raised here if they could get their hands on a Big Pharma vaccine for ebola.


You keep changing direction. You were talking about studies.


----------



## MoonRiver

haypoint said:


> If there was something in my mouth that was killing me, I'd grab the Channel Lock pliers and get it out. Beliefs and convictions without action is useless.
> 
> Be careful dosing yourself with Zinc. I once looked up Zinc Poisoning, in a Medical Dictionary and found, "see Lead". Well if you understand Lead Poisoning, you'd back off on that zinc, maybe.
> We are all going to die and if that keeps you happy and busy between now and then, enjoy.


100 mg/day is considered safe.

And while I think the amalgams are likely the cause of my health problems, I am not $15,000 sure. Maybe $5000 sure, but not $15000.


----------



## MoonRiver

doingitmyself said:


> I have no PhD, after my name but my research is in direct agreement with Yvonnes hubby. MY research shows that when a Ruger .204 bullet that weighs 32 grains and is moving at 4100 fps and it contacts a Ground Hog. The GH dies even before the exploded body parts settle back to earth.
> 
> So lead poisoning becomes a larger and larger concern in direct correlation with higher speed = higher splat factor= dead GH's.


Since you don't have a Ph D in that field, how can you make such a statement?


----------



## Evons hubby

MoonRiver said:


> Since you don't have a Ph D in that field, how can you make such a statement?


Personal observation during repeated experiments does help one form logical conclusions... that pile of dead groundhogs over there by his barn makes a pretty good statement all by itself. It also helps to form a conclusion when millions of other folks report in with very similar results in their experiments with various other critters.


----------



## Evons hubby

MoonRiver said:


> 100 mg/day is considered safe.


Do you happen to know the "safe" levels for mercury... over a period of years?


----------



## Evons hubby

While looking for how much mercury exposure would cause health problems, I ran across this little tidbit... Thought I would bring it forward for those interested. 

"Mercury use in some pharmaceuticals, such as thiomersal (ethyl mercury), which is used as a preservative in some vaccines, is very small by comparison with other mercury sources. There is no evidence that suggests a possible health hazard resulting from the amounts of thiomersal currently used in human vaccines."

If you want to read the article in its entirety, (very informative) heres the link. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs361/en/

Further reading in the article mentions a far greater risk is involved by the use of coal for heating your home, or a dental filling, and any number of other things that virtually nobody gives much thought to.


----------



## doingitmyself

now that's inconvenient.... LOLOL


----------



## Evons hubby

doingitmyself said:


> now that's inconvenient.... LOLOL


I was shooting for educational. It appears to be quite informative, and goes into a lot of the known problems with mercury... the big culprit appears to be consuming large fish.... that of course have been consuming lots of smaller fish in waters that are contaminated by industrial mercury.


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> You keep changing direction. You were talking about studies.


When I have time, I will try to look at them but the first link was to an advocacy site that was full of interpretation and no study paper. It takes too long during the day to look at it. I suspect that they will all boil down to repetitions of the same small studies with lots of words making much of them. But I will try.

But that is not the bottom line anyway. The bottom line is do you choose the old ways of epidemics, which is where the world would be without vaccines, or do you choose to try to improve them while accepting the imperfect results. It is a fantasy to think that you can eat or herb your way out of whooping cough or tetanus.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

where I want to said:


> When I have time, I will try to look at them but the first link was to an advocacy site that was full of interpretation and no study paper. It takes too long during the day to look at it. I suspect that they will all boil down to repetitions of the same small studies with lots of words making much of them. But I will try.
> 
> But that is not the bottom line anyway. The bottom line is do you choose the old ways of epidemics, which is where the world would be without vaccines, or do you choose to try to improve them while accepting the imperfect results. It is a fantasy to think that you can eat or herb your way out of whooping cough or tetanus.


I use to laugh at herbal remedies. Then I started to study them and then learned to make them. Almost every major med starts as a base herb. Take valium. It's base was velarian root. Which works just the same just over a little longer time. Most all mood elevating drugs have an herb that test better then they do with no side affects. Such as rhodiola root and st. John's wort. Which is by prescription only in almost every country for depression. Calming herbs that can replace anxiety meds like ativan or xanax like velarian, passion flower and skull cap. They are all potent and work better in many studies than prescription drugs which are extremely dangerous. We make many poultice blends that can clear up 3rd degree burns in two weeks. I even mended a broken deers leg with just wrap and burdock poultice. For every disease I believe there is a natural remedy. Though I don't support much of the seventh day adventis church, they are curing cancer with diet and herbs. And the Chinese have been doing it fir centuries. But America is fir the quick and easy and to lazy and skeptical to to try what's been used for thousands of years around the world.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Do you realize over 74% of the pain medications and emotional drugs we use in this country are banned everywhere else? Do you also know that almost every single preservative and many other food items we use are banned everywhere else? Why? Most Americans trust their leaders and guys in white coats.lol


----------



## watcher

MoonRiver said:


> I just did a bing search and found several scientific studies that show a link between vaccines and autism. I'd comment on your other points, but they're moot as your basic premise is incorrect.
> 
> A word of advice. Personal attacks seldom win an argument.


Can you post those links? 

All the links to scientific studies I found showed no link. Including one which studied over 14 million cases.


----------



## BlackFeather

Just thought I'd point out, for what it's worth, Galatians 5:20 mentions witchcraft, the Greek word is pharmakeia, (Strong's concordance #5331 meaning medicine,{ by extension}, magic, sorcery, witchcraft. Interestingly #5332 phamakeus meaning druggist, a poisoner, {by extension} a magician- sorcerer.) from which we get the word pharmaceutical. Just thought you'd be interested in the works of the flesh.

Speaking indirectly of potions, one of the medicines the gastroenterologist wanted to give my daughter had mouse proteins in it, he said so. No eye of newt or bat wing though.  She decided not to take it, she didn't want to have a craving for cheese, or the urge to scurry along the floor boards at night, or develop a perpetual fear of her cats.  (called Remicade if your curious)


----------



## SunsetSonata

The medicine with mouse protein is AWESOME. I was quite sick for a couple of years. None of the medicine tried was working and Remicade was fairly new at the time. I was told at the time it was party manufactured from mice - didn't bother me at all. Because of Remicade I got well enough to leave the hospital within just a few days. The change was dramatic. And I continued to improve, and have been fine ever since - for years! Without it, I wouldn't be able to work, and would probably be in and out of the hospital. Remicade - PREACH IT!

Oh, I'm not only part mouse, I'm part horse too, because I worked at a vet hospital and we saw rabies at least once. Really, it's not a problem. 

Some smart people somewhere learned from the scientific discoveries of others, and were able to advance treatment further. I'm grateful for THOSE people.


----------



## Molly Mckee

BlackFeather said:


> Just thought I'd point out, for what it's worth, Galatians 5:20 mentions witchcraft, the Greek word is pharmakeia, (Strong's concordance #5331 meaning medicine,{ by extension}, magic, sorcery, witchcraft. Interestingly #5332 phamakeus meaning druggist, a poisoner, {by extension} a magician- sorcerer.) from which we get the word pharmaceutical. Just thought you'd be interested in the works of the flesh.
> 
> Speaking indirectly of potions, one of the medicines the gastroenterologist wanted to give my daughter had mouse proteins in it, he said so. No eye of newt or bat wing though.  She decided not to take it, she didn't want to have a craving for cheese, or the urge to scurry along the floor boards at night, or develop a perpetual fear of her cats.  (called Remicade if your curious)


I can't believe anyone who has a child with colitis or any serious autoimmune disease would not want to try Remicade or any other drug that has been released for over 10 years with good results for many patients. How could you quote scripture (out of context) and be willing to let your child suffer? IMO you are abusing your child. And joking? about it making her crave cheese ect shows a huge lack of compassion--or you are simply a troll.

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## Molly Mckee

Vahomesteaders said:


> I use to laugh at herbal remedies. Then I started to study them and then learned to make them. Almost every major med starts as a base herb. Take valium. It's base was velarian root. Which works just the same just over a little longer time. Most all mood elevating drugs have an herb that test better then they do with no side affects. Such as rhodiola root and st. John's wort. Which is by prescription only in almost every country for depression. Calming herbs that can replace anxiety meds like ativan or xanax like velarian, passion flower and skull cap. They are all potent and work better in many studies than prescription drugs which are extremely dangerous. We make many poultice blends that can clear up 3rd degree burns in two weeks. I even mended a broken deers leg with just wrap and burdock poultice. For every disease I believe there is a natural remedy. Though I don't support much of the seventh day adventis church, they are curing cancer with diet and herbs. And the Chinese have been doing it fir centuries. But America is fir the quick and easy and to lazy and skeptical to to try what's been used for thousands of years around the world.


There is so much in this that is not true--but if you want to treat rabies, 
tetanus, polio and smallpox with herbs, go for it--just don't use them on anyone but yourself! And it you think the Seventh day Adventists are curing cancer with diet and herbs, maybe you and the Adventists should send out some press releases.
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Molly Mckee said:


> There is so much in this that is not true--but if you want to treat rabies,
> tetanus, polio and smallpox with herbs, go for it--just don't use them on anyone but yourself! And it you think the Seventh day Adventists are curing cancer with diet and herbs, maybe you and the Adventists should send out some press releases.
> http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


What's not true? Everything posted is verifiable 100%. As to the cancer they have Infact cured several types of cancer with those methods. Some forms are to far along and to aggressive at that point to treat in this methods. But caught early they can help the body do what is supposed to and fight and kill the diseases. The key is prevention. Yes things like polio are not curable at this point. Though there are several herbs that do put it into remission and stop it's damaging of the central nervous system and even repair the damage already done. Don't doubt or be scared of the things you are ignorant of. Educate yourself and learn about them.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

I mean this is a homesteading site where most people strive to be self reliant and educated on alternative methods to live by that don't necessarily go along with the rest of society. Since most live this lifestyle because society is destined to crumble on itself since it's become so reliant on the govt and men it suits and white coats. But some threads make you think it's just city slickers who have no clue about anything that does not come from a university or walgreens. Lol


----------



## arabian knight

Molly Mckee said:


> I can't believe anyone who has a child with colitis or any serious autoimmune disease would not want to try Remicade or any other drug that has been released for over 10 years with good results for many patients. How could you quote scripture (out of context) and be willing to let your child suffer? IMO you are abusing your child. And joking? about it making her crave cheese ect shows a huge lack of compassion--or you are simply a troll.
> 
> http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


 Yes that is the next drug when I go back on the strong ones for my severe RA. And there is not any herbs that is going to cure RA either, but this drug and others will stop the immune system from attacking itself and going on a rampage in ones body. I just won't take Methotrexate anymore, that one did a number on me, and nearly put me 6 feet under.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

arabian knight said:


> Yes that is the next drug when I go back on the strong ones for my severe RA. And there is not any herbs that is going to cure RA either, but this drug and others will stop the immune system from attacking itself and going on a rampage in ones body. I just won't take Methotrexate anymore, that one did a number on me, and nearly put me 6 feet under.


Actually ra runs in my wifes family. And there is a very affective treatment for it. It's called Triptergium wilfordii-Hook F, or TwHf. It's a chines herbal remedy and is treated better than methotrexate with none of the affects. Look it up. Give it a try. It may really help you. You can buy it online sometimes but I'd sells so quickly it can be hard to get. We have an ayurvedic doc in our area that can get all Chinese medicines. So you may have to look that route. But don't give up on affective treatment without all the side affects.


----------



## MoonRiver

Vahomesteaders said:


> I use to laugh at herbal remedies. Then I started to study them and then learned to make them. Almost every major med starts as a base herb. Take valium. It's base was velarian root. Which works just the same just over a little longer time. Most all mood elevating drugs have an herb that test better then they do with no side affects. Such as rhodiola root and st. John's wort. Which is by prescription only in almost every country for depression. Calming herbs that can replace anxiety meds like ativan or xanax like velarian, passion flower and skull cap. They are all potent and work better in many studies than prescription drugs which are extremely dangerous. We make many poultice blends that can clear up 3rd degree burns in two weeks. I even mended a broken deers leg with just wrap and burdock poultice. For every disease I believe there is a natural remedy. Though I don't support much of the seventh day adventis church, they are curing cancer with diet and herbs. And the Chinese have been doing it fir centuries. But America is fir the quick and easy and to lazy and skeptical to to try what's been used for thousands of years around the world.


Pharma doesn't make money if they can't get a patent. That's why we pay huge amounts for many substances that are based on plants found naturally in nature. And that's why pharma pushes so hard to have Congress restrict the sales of herbs and supplements.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

MoonRiver said:


> Pharma doesn't make money if they can't get a patent. That's why we pay huge amounts for many substances that are based on plants found naturally in nature. And that's why pharma pushes so hard to have Congress restrict the sales of herbs and supplements.


That's right. There were 3 herbs banned this year by the us and made for prescription only because they were so affective and cheap. The pharmaceutical company wad not making any money on them so that's what happens. It's a shame really.


----------



## unregistered358967

Molly Mckee said:


> Let's see do I believe a high school dropout who happens to be a mother .



Wow. Not only is this rude, it sure makes me think twice what I post here, lest it get used as ammo. 

I'm done with this thread but felt I needed to say that personal attacks are not okay with me.


----------



## BlackFeather

Molly Mckee said:


> I can't believe anyone who has a child with colitis or any serious autoimmune disease would not want to try Remicade or any other drug that has been released for over 10 years with good results for many patients. How could you quote scripture (out of context) and be willing to let your child suffer? IMO you are abusing your child. And joking? about it making her crave cheese ect shows a huge lack of compassion--or you are simply a troll.
> 
> http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


First off she has already had Remicade as a child it did nothing. Secondly I know people who have taken it and their immune system has been destroyed by it. Thirdly, she is over 21 and it's her decision, and fourthly the joke was hers, I just typed as she dictated it to me. Fifthly The surgeon she works for supports her use of herbs, since long term use of these new drugs can cause cancers and other problems, and only being 22, by the time she is 40 she will likely have bad side effects from these drugs. The doctor agreed that she should wait till she is older before trying some of these new drugs as long as she can get along with out them.
No scripture was taken out of context, witchcraft is a work of the flesh, it's just interesting that the Greek meaning of the word is what it is. Finally, calm your emotions.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

BlackFeather said:


> First off she has already had Remicade as a child it did nothing. Secondly I know people who have taken it and their immune system has been destroyed by it. Thirdly, she is over 21 and it's her decision, and fourthly the joke was hers, I just typed as she dictated it to me. Fifthly The surgeon she works for supports her use of herbs, since long term use of these new drugs can cause cancers and other problems, and only being 22, by the time she is 40 she will likely have bad side effects from these drugs. The doctor agreed that she should wait till she is older before trying some of these new drugs as long as she can get along with out them.
> No scripture was taken out of context, witchcraft is a work of the flesh, it's just interesting that the Greek meaning of the word is what it is. Finally, calm your emotions.


I had bad stomach problems. They thought colitis and crohns disease. I went gluten free and cut out all dairy and high fiber stuff and wow what a difference. Most folks have a gluten intolerance. It's a natural inflammatory agent. It can do a number on the gut. She might try that as well. It changed my life. Alot of trust in the Lord helped as well. I have since added back in eggs and many fruits and vegitables. I believe the gluten wad my main problem.


----------



## MoonRiver

watcher said:


> Can you post those links?
> 
> All the links to scientific studies I found showed no link. Including one which studied over 14 million cases.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058170
http://omsj.org/reports/tomljenovic 2011.pdf
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jt/2013/801517/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12145534
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/6/1611.full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15527868


----------



## MoonRiver

Molly Mckee said:


> I can't believe anyone who has a child with colitis or any serious autoimmune disease would not want to try Remicade or any other drug that has been released for over 10 years with good results for many patients. How could you quote scripture (out of context) and be willing to let your child suffer? IMO you are abusing your child. And joking? about it making her crave cheese ect shows a huge lack of compassion--or you are simply a troll.


So it's OK for YOU to tell other parents how to raise their kids?


----------



## elkhound

_pharmakeia_
Pronunciation
fÃ¤r-mÃ¤-k&#257;'-Ã¤ (Key) 
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From &#966;&#945;&#961;&#956;&#945;&#954;&#949;&#8059;&#962; (G5332) 
Dictionary Aids
*Vine's Expository Dictionary:* View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage


the use or the administering of drugs
poisoning
sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it
metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry


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## bluefish

Molly Mckee said:


> I can't believe anyone who has a child with colitis or any serious autoimmune disease would not want to try Remicade or any other drug that has been released for over 10 years with good results for many patients. How could you quote scripture (out of context) and be willing to let your child suffer? IMO you are abusing your child. And joking? about it making her crave cheese ect shows a huge lack of compassion--or you are simply a *troll*.


 troll 
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll



Your post kinda seems to fit the definition, no?


I mean, wow! How come most of the pro vac people are so nasty and vitriolic?


----------



## where I want to

thermopkt said:


> troll
> One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument
> 
> 
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll
> 
> 
> 
> Your post kinda seems to fit the definition, no?
> 
> 
> I mean, wow! How come most of the pro vac people are so nasty and vitriolic?


Far as I can tell there is plenty of acid throwing at both ends. 

But it is clear that all the herbs in the world do not cure diseases like whooping cough or tetanus. Modern medicine can not cure them once they take hold. The best that can be done is to support the body so it can hopefully survive long enough to cure itself. And even then a bacteria or virus can linger to raise it's ugly head decades later. 
That is why prevention by vaccines are so good. Better to prevent a car accident than fix up afterwards as best as you can.


----------



## arabian knight

Vahomesteaders said:


> Actually ra runs in my wifes family. And there is a very affective treatment for it. It's called Triptergium wilfordii-Hook F, or TwHf. It's a chines herbal remedy and is treated better than methotrexate with none of the affects. Look it up. Give it a try. It may really help you. You can buy it online sometimes but I'd sells so quickly it can be hard to get. We have an ayurvedic doc in our area that can get all Chinese medicines. So you may have to look that route. But don't give up on affective treatment without all the side affects.


Oh ya now here is a good side effect. Maybe Maybe not. LOL

Hmmmmmmm
It is also under investigation for its apparent antifertility effects, which it is speculated,* may provide a basis for a Male oral contraceptive.*[1]

Who knows LOL
Now if something would GROW Cartilage back in my knees it maybe something to look into, but when that cartilage is GONE and bone on bone is rubbing there is not much that is going to Stop THAT kind of pain besides a Knee Replacement of which I already had one done a few years back. 

Nope I am going to try that stuff that is made from chicken combs, it MAY take up at least SOME space for awhile at least, of the missing cartilage, and I can wait a few years before I have the knee replaced.

And on a side note i am OFF ALL of the RA drugs for the last 6 years, and only take aspirins and Ibuprofen to manage the pain, and REST also helps as I am retired. LOL


----------



## where I want to

Ok- I have spent a little time reviewing MoonRiver's last list. 
First the NIH publishes a huge range of papers of medical interest without comment or screening. Therefore you will find discredited studies there- the purpose is to have a location for scientists to look at anything, good or bad. The NIH links are the ones referencing the very questionable anti vaccine lobby groups funded studies. In NIH catalogs, you will find studies from around the world, by many different parties with varying credentials. You have to look carefully at them to have any idea of their validity.
The toxicology ones are links to a very small study (20 people) study showing that children who already have autism have a greater sensativity to thimerosal than would be expected. It raises issue for and against the thimerosal levels in vaccines being large enough to matter but will take time to sort out whether it offers useful information, especially in the light of the removal of thimerosal from most vaccines without subsequent reductions in autism levels. But at least there is a methodology and data given to look over.
But none of the links have the authority of the huge population studies from Europe and the US showing no statistical links to vaccines and autism.


----------



## Molly Mckee

I am a RN BS, with years of experience and ongoing education---enough to know what I don't know. I was not trying to be provocative, but trying to get help for your kids. I have seen how colitis patients suffer--I could not watch a child (or any one) suffer like that when help was available. If you aren't comfortable with Remicade there are other drugs that can help as well.

As I have said before, not only am I old enough to remember how sick these diseases can make kids, I had polio, as did two of my brothers. We have all had on going problems from it. And we were among the lucky ones. We had polio 6 weeks or so before the vaccine was released. My parents have never had to say I wish we had had you vaccinated. And they were over protective, if anything. And as my DB says, we grew up in "Mayberry" a small town, surrounded by farms. We played outside for hours, had gardens, fruit trees, drank milk straight from the neighbors cows. We grew up like Pretty Paisley wants her girls to--and I agree is good--but we got Polio anyway. I can not even imagine how hard it would be to watch your children die, to know I could have prevented it would destroy me.

I hope I have made at least one person think, do real research and maybe keep a child from suffering.


----------



## DaleK

Oh I don't know..... As delusional as most anti-vaxxers are, if their child was to die from one of these diseases, they'd soon convince themselves that Monsanto or big pharma or Blackwater poisoned them


----------



## Vahomesteaders

A long but Good read. 
http://vactruth.com/2009/07/21/dr-andrew-moulden-interview-what-you-were-never-told-about-vaccines/


----------



## arabian knight

Vahomesteaders said:


> A long but Good read.
> http://vactruth.com/2009/07/21/dr-andrew-moulden-interview-what-you-were-never-told-about-vaccines/


*
Dr. Andrew died of a sudden heart attack *

Hmmmm I wonder if he also did not believe in Taking meds to prevent such things as what Killed him........

Why I say that is in his obit on stupi line as he may have died of a Broken Heart, Ya his heart broke alright.,


----------



## MoonRiver

DaleK said:


> Oh I don't know..... As delusional as most anti-vaxxers are, if their child was to die from one of these diseases, they'd soon convince themselves that Monsanto or big pharma or Blackwater poisoned them


There is only 1 person that posted in this thread that might be considered an "anti-vaxxer" and she is far from delusional.

I have been reviewing some videos that were recommended to me, and the doctor mentions vaccinations as 1 of many triggering events for autism. 

That doesn't mean that a vaccination causes autism, but that a child who already has neuro-immune syndrome may have autism triggered by a vaccination. Autism is a symptom of the neuro-immune syndrome and not a disease. If I am understanding correctly, his strategy is to address the neuro-immune syndrome and the autism will go away.

I am reviewing the videos because of the neuro-immune syndrome, not autism. It appears that heavy metal toxicity may also be a symptom of neuro-immune syndrome, so I am trying to figure out how to address it. Dopamine seems to be a big part of the answer.


----------



## MoonRiver

Molly Mckee said:


> I am a RN BS, with years of experience and ongoing education---enough to know what I don't know. I was not trying to be provocative, but trying to get help for your kids. I have seen how colitis patients suffer--I could not watch a child (or any one) suffer like that when help was available. If you aren't comfortable with Remicade there are other drugs that can help as well.
> 
> As I have said before, not only am I old enough to remember how sick these diseases can make kids, I had polio, as did two of my brothers. We have all had on going problems from it. And we were among the lucky ones. We had polio 6 weeks or so before the vaccine was released. My parents have never had to say I wish we had had you vaccinated. And they were over protective, if anything. And as my DB says, we grew up in "Mayberry" a small town, surrounded by farms. We played outside for hours, had gardens, fruit trees, drank milk straight from the neighbors cows. We grew up like Pretty Paisley wants her girls to--and I agree is good--but we got Polio anyway. I can not even imagine how hard it would be to watch your children die, to know I could have prevented it would destroy me.
> 
> I hope I have made at least one person think, do real research and maybe keep a child from suffering.


And how many kids did you know with autism back then? None, I bet.


----------



## arabian knight

And the resin for that IS: as many new diseases are found out about YEARS after many have had SOMETHING they just DIDN'T know what to NAME IT....So that argument gores out with babies bath water. LOL


----------



## thesedays

MoonRiver said:


> And how many kids did you know with autism back then? None, I bet.


I can think of several people I grew up with in the 1970s who I now believe were on the autistic spectrum. It was only diagnosed if it was very severe, and many of them were called "retarded" or "brain damaged", and the kids I knew were just considered strange, socially awkward, etc. There was one boy who had very severe behavioral problems who was sent away to a state facility, and we were told that he had "childhood schizophrenia" which it was also dubbed. Parents who were often very well-meaning often thought the child was acting that way to embarrass them, and thought they could punish their kids' behaviors out of them. Doesn't work that way.

All the adults who are being diagnosed nowadays didn't become that way last week.


----------



## MoonRiver

arabian knight said:


> And the resin for that IS: as many new diseases are found out about YEARS after many have had SOMETHING they just DIDN'T know what to NAME IT....So that argument gores out with babies bath water. LOL


I guess way back in the dark ages - say 1996, they didn't know what autism was.

Autism per 1000 children.








http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism#mediaviewer/File:US-autism-6-17-1996-2007.png


----------



## where I want to

http://www.autismspeaks.org/science/science-news/autism-70-–-kanner-dsm-5

The definition of autism is established through the DSM, which establishes the codes and criteria for psychiatric billing of insurance. As you can see if you look at the history of defining autism, the graph you cite corresponds to expanding the definition of autism. 

So yes, MoonRiver was right- they didn't know what autism was until 1994, when the definition was changed to include what had been not included previously.

There were not clearly more people with the disease as much as there were more people covered under the term.


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> There were not clearly more people with the disease as much as there were more people covered under the term.


Have no idea how you can make that assumption. Going from less than 1 per 1000 to over 5 per 1000 in 12 years and you are saying it was all because doctors are learning how to code for it?

So does that mean you think there were 5+ kids per 1000 with autism in 1920? How about 1600?


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> Have no idea how you can make that assumption. Going from less than 1 per 1000 to over 5 per 1000 in 12 years and you are saying it was all because doctors are learning how to code for it?
> 
> So does that mean you think there were 5+ kids per 1000 with autism in 1920? How about 1600?


Yes- the definition went from possessed by the devil in 1600 to childhood schizophrenia in 1920 to autism in 1994. If you're counting things for stats, it helps to know the definition of what you are counting. 
Doesn't it at least raise a question for you when the stats align with the changes in definition?

Especially when vaccination existed long before this purported increase.


----------



## FarmerKat

MoonRiver said:


> There is only 1 person that posted in this thread that might be considered an "anti-vaxxer" and she is far from delusional.
> 
> I have been reviewing some videos that were recommended to me, and the doctor mentions vaccinations as 1 of many triggering events for autism.
> 
> That doesn't mean that a vaccination causes autism, but that a child who already has neuro-immune syndrome may have autism triggered by a vaccination. Autism is a symptom of the neuro-immune syndrome and not a disease. If I am understanding correctly, his strategy is to address the neuro-immune syndrome and the autism will go away.
> 
> I am reviewing the videos because of the neuro-immune syndrome, not autism. It appears that heavy metal toxicity may also be a symptom of neuro-immune syndrome, so I am trying to figure out how to address it. Dopamine seems to be a big part of the answer.


I have been holding back in posting in this thread because of the vitriol in some of the replies ...

I believe that Moon River is absolutely right. I do not think that autism is "new" but a few generations ago, our environment was so much cleaner. I have a child with autism and I do not care whether there is a scientific study to prove what I see every day of our life. If you met my child today, you would never guess that he struggles with a neurological disorder. You would probably just think he is a tad shy ... but we have stopped vaccinating, eat only the most basic natural foods, use only natural household products (mostly homemade), stay away from gluten and dairy, do not use plastic, the list goes on an on. In other words, we took control of our environment. It is night and day difference in my son's symptoms. 

Also, my kids have not been sick since we cleaned up our food and home and stopped vaccinating. And it is not because they are locked up at home without exposure to germs. They spent several months travelling abroad, using public transportation, etc. But they just have strong immune systems and do not get sick easily. 

Just because something works for the majority, it does not mean that it works for all. As parents we have responsibility to do what is right for our children, not to blindly follow the crowd.

Both my parents have severe disabilities from polio which they got before vaccine was available. So yes, that factored in our decision about vaccinating. But also, when my mom saw the list of vaccines they pump babies with starting at the ripe old age of 2 months, she was shocked. 

I wish more people took the time to research what is in the vaccines and make their choice on case by case basis rather than succumb to the fear mongering from either side of this issue.

ETA: I also think it is entirely uncalled for to accuse someone of child abuse (as it has been done by some in this thread) because they disagree with a parenting choice someone else made.


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> Especially when vaccination existed long before this purported increase.


How many times do I have to say the vaccine in 1960 is not the same as the vaccine in 2010. What's in the vaccine has changed. How often you take it may have changed. The age you take it may have changed. The lab where it was manufactured has definitely changed. Possibly the country it was manufactured in has changed. The water used in the plant has changed. The emf in the plant has changed.


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> How many times do I have to say the vaccine in 1960 is not the same as the vaccine in 2010. What's in the vaccine has changed. How often you take it may have changed. The age you take it may have changed. The lab where it was manufactured has definitely changed. Possibly the country it was manufactured in has changed. The water used in the plant has changed. The emf in the plant has changed.


So support this with dates of formula changes. So many thing have changed- maybe you're seeing the rise of cell phone emissions or perservatives in food in kid's cereal or air pollution due to so many cars. If you can assign your ideas to vaccines, there must be some basis other than your beliefs.


----------



## where I want to

FarmerKat said:


> I have been holding back in posting in this thread because of the vitriol in some of the replies ...
> 
> I believe that Moon River is absolutely right. I do not think that autism is "new" but a few generations ago, our environment was so much cleaner. I have a child with autism and I do not care whether there is a scientific study to prove what I see every day of our life. If you met my child today, you would never guess that he struggles with a neurological disorder. You would probably just think he is a tad shy ... but we have stopped vaccinating, eat only the most basic natural foods, use only natural household products (mostly homemade), stay away from gluten and dairy, do not use plastic, the list goes on an on. In other words, we took control of our environment. It is night and day difference in my son's symptoms.
> 
> Also, my kids have not been sick since we cleaned up our food and home and stopped vaccinating. And it is not because they are locked up at home without exposure to germs. They spent several months travelling abroad, using public transportation, etc. But they just have strong immune systems and do not get sick easily.
> 
> Just because something works for the majority, it does not mean that it works for all. As parents we have responsibility to do what is right for our children, not to blindly follow the crowd.
> 
> Both my parents have severe disabilities from polio which they got before vaccine was available. So yes, that factored in our decision about vaccinating. But also, when my mom saw the list of vaccines they pump babies with starting at the ripe old age of 2 months, she was shocked.
> 
> I wish more people took the time to research what is in the vaccines and make their choice on case by case basis rather than succumb to the fear mongering from either side of this issue.
> 
> ETA: I also think it is entirely uncalled for to accuse someone of child abuse (as it has been done by some in this thread) because they disagree with a parenting choice someone else made.


First let me congratulate you on your son's hard won improvement. I do not question that there has been an improvement and that it might be due to you efforts to eliminate toxins.

But unfortunately your success might very well lead to some looking to easy answers and satisfying surity to say that your experience proves vaccines are bad.

In actuality, vaccinating was one change in many you made, not to mention you, being a diligent parent, probably gave him special attention as to his schooling. Any of the things you did might have made the difference. Or simply time and schooling. Or less sugar in kid's diets (that is one of my personal pet ideas.) It is hard to just pick one thing as the sole reason for the improvement.

And that is why anecdotal evidence is a pretty poor substitution for population studies and testing evaluations in making a decision on this issue You point out everyone is different- so what works for your son might not work for many others. Then it is impossible to know which changes made a difference- could have been something other than vaccinations. Populaion studies smooth out the individual differences and make it possible to see the things that cause a good or bad effect for all and thus lead to conclusions as to cause and effect.

For example I said that I vaccinations and did not get those diseases and did not have vaccinations and did get those diseases. But that is just one bit of data out of millions. I'd never say that all people who are not vaccinated get every disease, even if exposed. Nor do I think that every person who gets vaccinated will not get the disease. I can say that a large majority will be protected and, if too many are not vaccinated, there will be epidemics. This is life and death issues and the goal should be to get the best evidence possible before making a choice.


----------



## Molly Mckee

Letting a child with very painful condition like colitis suffer because of your belief in a totally discredited idea is in my mind child abuse. If you have ever seen someone with a sever colitis attack, I think you would understand. This is not "a parenting choice", I don't understand how a parent could do this, and I would bet that that same parent would be at the nearest ER demanding someone do something, if he was the one with colitis. This can be life threatening, and not treating it will lead to more problems.


----------



## JeffreyD

arabian knight said:


> *
> Dr. Andrew died of a sudden heart attack *
> 
> Hmmmm I wonder if he also did not believe in Taking meds to prevent such things as what Killed him........
> 
> Why I say that is in his obit on stupi line as he may have died of a Broken Heart, Ya his heart broke alright.,


Kinda like Jim Fix, health nut and rabid anti smoker. Was found dead of a heart attack while jogging!


----------



## JeffreyD

Molly Mckee said:


> Letting a child with very painful condition like colitis suffer because of your belief in a totally discredited idea is in my mind child abuse. If you have ever seen someone with a sever colitis attack, I think you would understand. This is not "a parenting choice", I don't understand how a parent could do this, and I would bet that that same parent would be at the nearest ER demanding someone do something, if he was the one with colitis. This can be life threatening, and not treating it will lead to more problems.


Can I tell you what to do with YOUR kids? Just curious! !!!


----------



## where I want to

I'd agree that using the term child abuse when so much is unknown in a forum is too far to go. But then the anti vaccine people are pretty free at blaming parents who do vaccinate for any health problems that their children have. That is too far too. And dangerous.


----------



## where I want to

JeffreyD said:


> Can I tell you what to do with YOUR kids? Just curious! !!!


Well, every post on this thread is someone telling others what to with their kids. It's the nature of the whole issue.


----------



## PrettyPaisley

Jax-mom said:


> Wow. Not only is this rude, it sure makes me think twice what I post here, lest it get used as ammo.
> 
> I'm done with this thread but felt I needed to say that personal attacks are not okay with me.



If this post was directed towards me, I'm not a high school drop out.  Proud junior college drop out but I did walk across the stage for my diploma. Then I ran as fast as I could away from formal education.  

My ignore list has exactly two people on it for personal (and untrue???) attacks. And I bet you can guess that haypoint isn't on there.  So if it appears I am ignoring personal attacks, I am. It keeps me from being banned because I've responded in the past and can't keep accumulated demerits. Too bad others can't offer me the same courtesy - but I guess that means I've have to start with personal attacks, huh? :gaptooth:


----------



## Molly Mckee

JeffreyD said:


> Can I tell you what to do with YOUR kids? Just curious! !!!



If one of my kids had serious colitis or other potential life threatening disease that could be treated and I didn't want to treat it because of misinformation/ misunderstanding, I would hope you would! 
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> Well, every post on this thread is someone telling others what to with their kids. It's the nature of the whole issue.


Only 1 person has done that and it wasn't an anti vaccine person.


----------



## JeffreyD

Molly Mckee said:


> If one of my kids had serious colitis or other potential life threatening disease that could be treated and I didn't want to treat it because of misinformation/ misunderstanding, I would hope you would!
> http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


You didn't answer my question!


----------



## wr

PrettyPaisley said:


> Let me tell you something. Being the mama is the only credential I need.
> 
> 
> 
> When I started searching for information there was NO ONE willing to give me the answer. NO ONE. Everywhere I looked it was information and "do the research and make up your own mind". And now I know why. It's the least informed and most indoctrinated that want to tell you to shut your mouth and line up for shots. It's the most informed that force you to do your own research. And when you DO the work - rarely will you find someone who is informed that will continue with the vax schedule the CDC lays out.



I often wonder why you feel the need to insult those that do believe in vaccinations? Is it because you frustrate when someone disagrees or that your feel that this tactic will cause people to gravitate toward your way of thinking with insults? I've personally found the opposite to be effective.


----------



## JeffreyD

wr said:


> I often wonder why you feel the need to insult those that do believe in vaccinations? Is it because you frustrate when someone disagrees or that your feel that this tactic will cause people to gravitate toward your way of thinking with insults? I've personally found the opposite to be effective.


I see a little frustration here , but certainly no insults! Not sure where your seeing them? I see many more from the "pro" side! :shrug:


----------



## watcher

MoonRiver said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21058170
> http://omsj.org/reports/tomljenovic 2011.pdf
> http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jt/2013/801517/
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12145534
> http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/6/1611.full
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15527868


Thanks, next week I should have some time to read them


----------



## MoonRiver

watcher said:


> Thanks, next week I should have some time to read them


If you are really interested in autism, I suggest this series of videos starting with this one. It is really for anyone that wants to learn about neuro-immune syndrome.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5m2jfiSnN4"][youtube]J5m2jfiSnN4[/youtube][/ame]


----------



## watcher

MoonRiver said:


> If you are really interested in autism, I suggest this series of videos starting with this one. It is really for anyone that wants to learn about neuro-immune syndrome.


To be honest with you I'm not really interested in autism. I am interested in seeing how the studies you listed were done vs the ones I have found which show no link.

I know enough about studies and statistics to know if you want you can eventually find or make the data show what you want. But once you publish your data and procedures and others review it the truth comes out.

As you know the first study which linked vaccines to autism was latter proven to be a complete fraud. IIRC, not only was the way the data was collected slanted many of the numbers were faked.

I have been trying to find an actual copy of a study I read a summary of. It studied over 14 million cases and could find no link between any vaccine and autism. If this study was done according to good solid scientific procedures I'd have to say its a death knell for the autism-vaccine link. After all if you have that many cases and can't find a link then there's not one to be found.


----------



## BlackFeather

I have Crohn's disease, the doctors have a bag of tricks (medicines, or is it potions) that they use when I didn't respond to them, they just try them over. Crohn's goes into remission eventually on its own. (My gastroenterologist confided that they weren't sure how well medicines work, if they work at all, just for that reason.) So when my daughter got Ulcerative Colitis and their bag of tricks didn't work for her, at 13 years old they wanted to cut out her colon. I stopped them, because I had experienced the medical profession, so what happened, I went home fasted and prayed for a solution. A couple of days later my wife was walking through the pharmacy section of the store when a strong thought came into her head "get green tea capsules since she won't drink green tea", she wasn't even thinking of that. We tried green tea pills and by the time the bottle was empty her colon was improving. I believe there are herbs to help with most illnesses, for me it was Peppermint (schnapps mostly, which worked for over 15 years, and finally it stopped but surgery was the answer this time,) it's just finding out which will work for you, since every one is different no one can dictate which herb you need, you have to find out for yourself. I have found listen to your cravings. My next post will be from my "abused" daughter.


----------



## watcher

Ok more facts and studies to discredit that vaccine-autism link can be found here: http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/48/4/456.full

Its a footnoted abstract on, IIRC, 20 studies of a link between vaccines and autism from around the world (US, UK, Denmark, Sweden and Finland). Most of the footnotes link to abstracts and the full text of the studies (I haven't had the time nor will to dig into them) so you can judge for yourself if you think the studies were done in a unbiased manner.

The conclusion from the study of the studies states:
_
Twenty epidemiologic studies have shown that neither thimerosal nor MMR vaccine causes autism. These studies have been performed in several countries by many different investigators who have employed a multitude of epidemiologic and statistical methods. The large size of the studied populations has afforded a level of statistical power sufficient to detect even rare associations. These studies, in concert with the biological implausibility that vaccines overwhelm a child's immune system, have effectively dismissed the notion that vaccines cause autism._

I know for those who have made up their minds all these facts will mean nothing but to those who are genuinely worried and want to know the facts as opposed to anecdotal evidence this would be a very good place to start.

Edited to add: I found another page which has links to 107 studies from around the world all of which find no link between vaccines and autism.

http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2014/03/75-studies-that-show-no-link-between.html


----------



## Evons hubby

PrettyPaisley said:


> If this post was directed towards me, I'm not a high school drop out.  Proud junior college drop out but I did walk across the stage for my diploma. Then I ran as fast as I could away from formal education.
> 
> My ignore list has exactly two people on it for personal (and untrue???) attacks. And I bet you can guess that haypoint isn't on there.  So if it appears I am ignoring personal attacks, I am. It keeps me from being banned because I've responded in the past and can't keep accumulated demerits. Too bad others can't offer me the same courtesy - but I guess that means I've have to start with personal attacks, huh? :gaptooth:


As much as I disagree with you on this subject... I truly hope I am not one of those on your ignore list... I do try to be respectful of others, even if they are wrong occasionally.

(this has been a test of the ignore button system)


----------



## Vahomesteaders

BlackFeather said:


> I have Crohn's disease, the doctors have a bag of tricks (medicines, or is it potions) that they use when I didn't respond to them, they just try them over. Crohn's goes into remission eventually on its own. (My gastroenterologist confided that they weren't sure how well medicines work, if they work at all, just for that reason.) So when my daughter got Ulcerative Colitis and their bag of tricks didn't work for her, at 13 years old they wanted to cut out her colon. I stopped them, because I had experienced the medical profession, so what happened, I went home fasted and prayed for a solution. A couple of days later my wife was walking through the pharmacy section of the store when a strong thought came into her head "get green tea capsules since she won't drink green tea", she wasn't even thinking of that. We tried green tea pills and by the time the bottle was empty her colon was improving. I believe there are herbs to help with most illnesses, for me it was Peppermint (schnapps mostly, which worked for over 15 years, and finally it stopped but surgery was the answer this time,) it's just finding out which will work for you, since every one is different no one can dictate which herb you need, you have to find out for yourself. I have found listen to your cravings. My next post will be from my "abused" daughter.


That's good news. There is a natural remedy for just about everything. People just don't take the time to learn. They tried to tell my wife after a10 minute visit, she had fibromialga which is what was causing her to ache all over and get migraines. So they wanted her on anti depressants and lexapro. They did nothing. Come to find out. She had a b12 and magnesium deficiency. Started those and it cleared right up. Same with my stomach problems. They labeled it ibs/crohns. I changed my diet stayed away from gluten and any spasmatic type foods and almost emediatly it was gone. When my mother had a stroke she was pretty much a vegitable. But stable. So we had to bring her home and care for her. Cleaning her trachea changing diapers etc.. I got real low. Ran on very little sleep and just got in a bad state. But didn't want to take meds. So I researched and found one of the greatest things on the planet for those depressed feelings is fish oil. The omega 3 dha and eph, are the essential building blocks for the brain for the central nervous system and creating serotonin. Started on two a day and within a week it was an amazing difference. Still hard sometimes because of the situation but man could I cope with stress better. And add some aswagandah root tea and I was a new man. These things work better than any med and so much safer.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

watcher said:


> Ok more facts and studies to discredit that vaccine-autism link can be found here: http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/48/4/456.full
> 
> Its a footnoted abstract on, IIRC, 20 studies of a link between vaccines and autism from around the world (US, UK, Denmark, Sweden and Finland). Most of the footnotes link to abstracts and the full text of the studies (I haven't had the time nor will to dig into them) so you can judge for yourself if you think the studies were done in a unbiased manner.
> 
> The conclusion from the study of the studies states:
> _
> Twenty epidemiologic studies have shown that neither thimerosal nor MMR vaccine causes autism. These studies have been performed  in several countries by many different investigators who have employed a multitude of epidemiologic and statistical methods. The large size of the studied populations has afforded a level of statistical power sufficient to detect even rare associations. These studies, in concert with the biological implausibility that vaccines overwhelm a child's immune system, have effectively dismissed the notion that vaccines cause autism._
> 
> I know for those who have made up their minds all these facts will mean nothing but to those who are genuinely worried and want to know the facts as opposed to anecdotal evidence this would be a very good place to start.
> 
> Edited to add: I found another page which has links to 107 studies from around the world all of which find no link between vaccines and autism.
> 
> http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2014/03/75-studies-that-show-no-link-between.html


Weer have provided just as much facts from those who aren't paid by the fda or pharmaceutical companies. If they are being paid by or sending patients ti the pharmaceutical companies you can't trust their data.


----------



## BlackFeather

When I was first diagnosed at 11, my dad took my to see Dr. X who had done two surgeries on my father already and was familiar with us and our history. Because Dad had the sister disease already, I wasn't scared. Because I saw my father was strong and could handle the disease I knew I could as well. When Dr. X met me for the first time, apparently she was impressed with me because I didn't whine or complain; I was strong and unafraid and she admired that--so much that she hired me when I turned 16 to work at her office!

I was sent out to Children's Hospital in Buffalo for treatment. I remember spending entire days there for tests like upper endoscopies, colonoscopies, upper GIs, cat scans. I remember seeing doctors once a month, once every two months, etc. And nothing they did for me ever helped. By 14, I was fed up with all the tests and medicines and I hated seeing doctors. I didn't feel like I needed them when the green tea was working fine for me. I was being home-schooled, which helped tremendously to lower stress. I was doing very well and following up with local primary doctors as needed. 

When ever I needed to see a doctor, my parents where always there to make sure I got the care I needed, but at the same time if I didn't WANT a doctor's care (when it was obvious they could do nothing for me any ways) they allowed me to treat myself by buying me herbal remedies (green tea, boswellia etc) and foods I was craving, these caused me to improve. I know my own body and I know how to take care of it.

I find it selfish of parents, who forcefully have their child treated according to the medical community and the treatments do not help the child rather all the tests and medicines are torturing them. And I can attest, that I felt tortured at Children's Hospital. Some children respond to medications, and others don't. Parents need to realize when to stop and look for alternatives.

Now, working for Dr. X, I often hear her complain to the staff regarding nurses at the hospital; nurses who think they know everything and try to parade themselves around like doctors. I remember when I was in 6th grade, the school nurse tried to accuse my father of abusing me. When Dr. X found out, she called the school and demanded to speak with the principal. This is the first time a surgeon ever called the middle school and ripped the vice principal a part and told him the school nurse needed to go back to school and that she didn't know what she was talking about! Let's just say, we never had any problems since then.

Dr. X is still impressed with me as a patient and an employee, because she knows me inside and out--literally. Yes, she stated that I was "suffering", but I don't feel it. I know that there is a possibility of surgery in my future, and Dr. X thinks it's best for me to continue treating myself the way I do and continue to have periodic scopes. When the times comes, perhaps I'll have a permanent colostomy bag, but right now, I'm not ready for that and I can tell you that I'd be a very bitter girl if I had had the surgery at 13. I'm glad my dad didn't allow them to remove my colon, because I still have a hope that things will be well with me eventually. 

As far as medications go, I've tried them all. They don't work for me at least. If Remicade works for someone else, hey, that's great. I'm happy for you, but it didn't help me. Perhaps I'll develop colon cancer. The simple solution will be to remove the colon and then I'll be cured which sounds like a better alternative plan than taking medications to help the colitis, but can cause lymphoma down the road--and if I develop that then I'm downright screwed. Sometimes you have to pick the lesser of the two evils, and that's what I've had to do. Working at Dr. X's is office, I meet colon cancer survivors who are in their 80s and 90s--so I'm not afraid of dying from such a disease. I make sure I'm scoped periodically and biopsies are done to rule-our malignant cells in their early stages.

It's my life and I want to live it the way I want to. Advice is good, but when it comes to my body, I know what's best.

-- From the "abused" daughter of BlackFeather.


----------



## Evons hubby

MoonRiver said:


> If you are really interested in autism, I suggest this series of videos starting with this one. It is really for anyone that wants to learn about neuro-immune syndrome.
> [youtube]J5m2jfiSnN4[/youtube]


So before I attempted to view this video... I usually have comp issues trying to see them... I did a search on our good doctor Kendall. Seems he has teamed up with the author of the fraudulent studies done a few years back that began all this nonsense... yep... he's in bed with good old Andy Wakefield! I will now ask your forgiveness for not bothering to crash my comp listening to what Kendall has to say.


----------



## watcher

Vahomesteaders said:


> Weer have provided just as much facts from those who aren't paid by the fda or pharmaceutical companies. If they are being paid by or sending patients ti the pharmaceutical companies you can't trust their data.


Please support your claim. Show us where these studies have been "paid by or sending patients ti(sic) the pharmaceutical companies".

And did you even take the time to read the abstract I linked to much less follow the links to the actual studies in the footnotes?


----------



## MoonRiver

Yvonne's hubby said:


> So before I attempted to view this video... I usually have comp issues trying to see them... I did a search on our good doctor Kendall. Seems he has teamed up with the author of the fraudulent studies done a few years back that began all this nonsense... yep... he's in bed with good old Andy Wakefield! I will now ask your forgiveness for not bothering to crash my comp listening to what Kendall has to say.


It makes no difference to me what you do.


----------



## Evons hubby

MoonRiver said:


> It makes no difference to me what you do.


I sorta figured that... and that part is all good. Care to comment on the relationship between the good doctor Kendall and his mentor Andy Wakefield who has been found guilty of fraudulent practices in his research work? These were not just errors or oversights... they were blatant misrepresentations of the facts in order to achieve the desired "results". Me? I would take the word of the world health organization or the CDC over theirs anyday.


----------



## MoonRiver

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I sorta figured that... and that part is all good. Care to comment on the relationship between the good doctor Kendall and his mentor Andy Wakefield who has been found guilty of fraudulent practices in his research work? These were not just errors or oversights... they were blatant misrepresentations of the facts in order to achieve the desired "results". Me? I would take the word of the world health organization or the CDC over theirs anyday.


So you would take the word of the CDC over Wakefield? Would you believe this CDC doctor who just came forward this month?



> _&#8220;Oh my God, I did not believe that we did what we did, but we did. It&#8217;s all there&#8230; This is the lowest point in my career, that I went along with that paper. I have great shame now when I meet families of kids with autism, because I have been part of the problem.&#8221;&#8212;CDC Whistleblower Dr. William W. Thompson, in a recorded interview with Dr. Brian Hooker._


http://m.theepochtimes.com/n3/91225...ldren-at-risk-of-autism-media-remains-silent/

I don't think there is a relationship other than Wakefied and Stewart came to a similar conclusion. As I understand it, Dr Stewart believes that for children that have both a genetic disposition for and an impaired neuro-immune system, some vaccines may be a triggering event for autism. You are giving a disease to a child whose immune system cannot handle it.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other on Wakefield. I am researching Dr Stewart because he was recommended to me as having an approach that might help me with heavy metal detox resulting from mercury amalgams.


----------



## Evons hubby

MoonRiver said:


> So you would take the word of the CDC over Wakefield? Would you believe this CDC doctor who just came forward this month?
> 
> http://m.theepochtimes.com/n3/91225...ldren-at-risk-of-autism-media-remains-silent/
> 
> I don't think there is a relationship other than Wakefied and Stewart came to a similar conclusion. As I understand it, Dr Stewart believes that for children that have both a genetic disposition for and an impaired neuro-immune system, some vaccines may be a triggering event for autism. You are giving a disease to a child whose immune system cannot handle it.
> 
> I don't have an opinion one way or the other on Wakefield. I am researching Dr Stewart because he was recommended to me as having an approach that might help me with heavy metal detox resulting from mercury amalgams.


I may have granted them some credibility, enough to read the article at least, but again, upon reading the article you postes a snip of, I ran headlong into our good doctor wakefield again. The man is a proven fraud and leaches off innocent victims.... To have ANY connects, links and ties to him does NOT make anyone credible to me It has quite the opposite affect. Short answer? No, I wouldnt believe a word this particular CDC doctor has to say without some serious investigation showing absolute proof of the allegations. 

I also urge you to look further into Wakefield, and the good doctor Kendall who is indeed in business with Wakefield... or anyone else who has ties with him.


----------



## MoonRiver

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I may have granted them some credibility, enough to read the article at least, but again, upon reading the article you postes a snip of, I ran headlong into our good doctor wakefield again. The man is a proven fraud and leaches off innocent victims.... To have ANY connects, links and ties to him does NOT make anyone credible to me It has quite the opposite affect. Short answer? No, I wouldnt believe a word this particular CDC doctor has to say without some serious investigation showing absolute proof of the allegations.
> 
> I also urge you to look further into Wakefield, and the good doctor Kendall who is indeed in business with Wakefield... or anyone else who has ties with him.


How many times do I have to say I don't care what Wakefield did or didn't do, said or didn't say. I have not championed him or referenced him that I know of.

You said you believed the CDC and I simply pointed out that just this month, a CDC doctor from the study that concluded there was no link between autism and the MMR vaccine, came out and said there was fraud in the study and that the data, did indeed show a link.

If you wish to ignore it because Wakefield's name was in the same article, fine. I don't care.

My interest is in heavy metal detox and Dr Kendal, not autism and Wakefield.


----------



## haley1

So I have been looking at both sides too form my own opinion and found this guy Dr poul thorsen. On the most wanted site you have to scroll down to find him. Looks like he faked some studies and funneled the money the CDC paid him into his own pocket

https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives/profiles.asp


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/central-figure-in-cdc-vac_b_494303.html


----------



## Evons hubby

MoonRiver said:


> How many times do I have to say I don't care what Wakefield did or didn't do, said or didn't say. I have not championed him or referenced him that I know of.
> 
> You said you believed the CDC and I simply pointed out that just this month, a CDC doctor from the study that concluded there was no link between autism and the MMR vaccine, came out and said there was fraud in the study and that the data, did indeed show a link.
> 
> If you wish to ignore it because Wakefield's name was in the same article, fine. I don't care.
> 
> My interest is in heavy metal detox and Dr Kendal, not autism and Wakefield.


I understand your concerns about the affect of heavy metals and their problems when it involves public health. What I fail to understand is your seeming fascination with anything that comes out of the mouths of people who are linked to Dr."?" Wakefield. The man is a blatant fraud, who has been tried and convicted, his reputation totally and rightfully destroyed. He has ZERO credibility what so ever, and has been thoroughly exposed as no more than a dishonest fraud out for personal gain. Me? I would put no faith whatsoever in anyone who willfully opts to work side by side with him, be in cahoots with him or use his name as a reference... I wouldnt hire his pool boy to clean the grunge out of my toilet. But my all means, believe in his hype, go for it. I wish you the very best of luck.


----------



## gibbsgirl

found this article tonight. thought it might be of interest to some of the people who were chatting on this thread.

http://sharylattkisson.com/cdc-possibility-that-vaccines-rarely-trigger-autism


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## PrettyPaisley

haley1 said:


> so i have been looking at both sides too form my own opinion and found this guy dr poul thorsen. On the most wanted site you have to scroll down to find him. Looks like he faked some studies and funneled the money the cdc paid him into his own pocket
> 
> 
> 
> https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives/profiles.asp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/central-figure-in-cdc-vac_b_494303.html


----------



## where I want to

http://atlantaunfiltered.com/2011/04/13/autism-researcher-indicted-for-alleged-1m-cdc-fraud/
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...raud-and-embezzlement-and-the-danish-studies/



The bottom line seems to be that this individual did not actually supply any data to these studies showing no autism links- that was the fraud. He got grants and did not do the work. His name appeared on some papers because he was connected to the Universities that did to the studies and billed for work that was never done.

On the other hand, Wakefield made up the data for his claims- that was his fraud.


----------



## PrettyPaisley

You accuse those who disagree with you of only seeing what they wish to see. 

The same can be said by the lockstep Big Gov't lemmings. ANYONE can be bought, ANYONE'S reputation can be ruined in the one minute sound bite world in which we live. What makes a headline discounting one doctors work any more important than another ? (Though I don't see many pro-vac folks here quoting Offit-I only see them bashing Wakefield but no anti-vax folks quoting either.) 

If you choose to research further, if you choose you rely on your own efforts to dig for information and if you're willing to turn off CNN and really see the truth, it's out there. And I'm not talking about what you saw 60 years ago or who is buried in your family's plot. I'm talking now, today, sick kids today and what is being injected into them. To compare 1940s illnesses with 2014s vaccines makes no more sense than comparing wheat from the bible to what is grown in Iowa today. 

If you want to protect kids from VPDs then stop injecting them with ridiculous amounts of money making "shots" and trying to bully them with scare tactics. Stop trying to scare moms of teenagers into thinking that their daughter will be the 1 in 40,000 that will die of cervical cancer when the truth is 140 girls have died as of last October because of this toxic concoction developed only after Perry agreed to try to force it on all school girls in Texas. Stop trying to tell parents they are wrong when they say the life left their children after milestone vaccines like 2 months, 4 months (SIDS spikes at these ages) and 15 and 18 months (when regression is most often reported). 

You can rest the anti-vax concerns solely at the feet of greedy pharmaceuticals and the govt't. I know scores of women who would vax their kids if they could do it slowly and on their own terms. If they could get a single dose of JUST a diptheria shot or a single does of JUST a tetanus shot. But you can't. You could up until a few years ago. You could order it and have it sent to your pediatrician's office - but those days are over. Now you get a slurry of several shots in one, suspended in preservatives (yes- there is still thimerosal is vaccines) and injected into your kid along with several others, all in one day. And for what? The Greater Good ? (Think of all the addition co-pay money that would flow if parents had this option.) Give the baby a chance to handle one at a time. Give the momma a chance to take her baby home after one dose of one shot and let her nurse it's immune system in preparation for another. Let her detox the crap from it's body before shooting it with more. 

Back. Off. Back away and stop cramming this crap down our throats. Because your tactics aren't accomplishing anything except more mud slinging, more name calling, finger pointing and division among those of us who should be fighting them, not each other. Screaming about child abuse is akin to a liberal backed into a corner and all they can muster is "RACIST!!! You're a RACIST!" It's ineffective and shows you have nothing left to offer and your knowledge on the truth about what is being injected into the kids of today is littered with holes and driven by the gov't controlled media. Surely we self-sufficient types can understand that.


----------



## arabian knight

PrettyPaisley said:


> Back. Off. Back away and stop cramming this crap down our throats. Because your tactics aren't accomplishing anything except more mud slinging, more name calling, finger pointing and division among those of us who should be fighting them, not each other. Screaming about child abuse is akin to a liberal backed into a corner and all they can muster is "RACIST!!! You're a RACIST!" It's ineffective and shows you have nothing left to offer and your knowledge on the truth about what is being injected into the kids of today is littered with holes and driven by the gov't controlled media. Surely we self-sufficient types can understand that.


Yes yes yes, that is the Way The Anti ones are doing and should be doing what is said. All this anti that anti this is nothing more then hyped up stable floor sweepings and nothing more.


----------



## Molly Mckee

PrettyPaisley said:


> You accuse those who disagree with you of only seeing what they wish to see.
> 
> The same can be said by the lockstep Big Gov't lemmings. ANYONE can be bought, ANYONE'S reputation can be ruined in the one minute sound bite world in which we live. What makes a headline discounting one doctors work any more important than another ? (Though I don't see many pro-vac folks here quoting Offit-I only see them bashing Wakefield but no anti-vax folks quoting either.)
> 
> If you choose to research further, if you choose you rely on your own efforts to dig for information and if you're willing to turn off CNN and really see the truth, it's out there. And I'm not talking about what you saw 60 years ago or who is buried in your family's plot. I'm talking now, today, sick kids today and what is being injected into them. To compare 1940s illnesses with 2014s vaccines makes no more sense than comparing wheat from the bible to what is grown in Iowa today.
> 
> If you want to protect kids from VPDs then stop injecting them with ridiculous amounts of money making "shots" and trying to bully them with scare tactics. Stop trying to scare moms of teenagers into thinking that their daughter will be the 1 in 40,000 that will die of cervical cancer when the truth is 140 girls have died as of last October because of this toxic concoction developed only after Perry agreed to try to force it on all school girls in Texas. Stop trying to tell parents they are wrong when they say the life left their children after milestone vaccines like 2 months, 4 months (SIDS spikes at these ages) and 15 and 18 months (when regression is most often reported).
> 
> You can rest the anti-vax concerns solely at the feet of greedy pharmaceuticals and the govt't. I know scores of women who would vax their kids if they could do it slowly and on their own terms. If they could get a single dose of JUST a diptheria shot or a single does of JUST a tetanus shot. But you can't. You could up until a few years ago. You could order it and have it sent to your pediatrician's office - but those days are over. Now you get a slurry of several shots in one, suspended in preservatives (yes- there is still thimerosal is vaccines) and injected into your kid along with several others, all in one day. And for what? The Greater Good ? (Think of all the addition co-pay money that would flow if parents had this option.) Give the baby a chance to handle one at a time. Give the momma a chance to take her baby home after one dose of one shot and let her nurse it's immune system in preparation for another. Let her detox the crap from it's body before shooting it with more.
> 
> Back. Off. Back away and stop cramming this crap down our throats. Because your tactics aren't accomplishing anything except more mud slinging, more name calling, finger pointing and division among those of us who should be fighting them, not each other. Screaming about child abuse is akin to a liberal backed into a corner and all they can muster is "RACIST!!! You're a RACIST!" It's ineffective and shows you have nothing left to offer and your knowledge on the truth about what is being injected into the kids of today is littered with holes and driven by the gov't controlled media. Surely we self-sufficient types can understand
> that.


How about scientific facts instead of insulting those that don't agree with you. You still haven't explained why your opinion is worth the time it took you to write it. And you don't make much sense.
Insulting people does not make you right, neither do your feelings. How about some real, provable, repeatable facts.
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## Evons hubby

PrettyPaisley said:


> What makes a headline discounting one doctors work any more important than another ?


I think that probably has to do with having gone through a lengthy court process and being found guilty of blatant fraud vs being accused of it. I have been accused of many things over the years, a few times when I was indeed guilty (traffic tickets) I plead guilty and saved the courts a lot of time and energy, but so far when I have been accused of higher crimes the truth has won out and I have yet to be found guilty by a judge or jury. 

Fur what its worth, I dont think you are a child abuser, nor a racist nor anything else of a negative nature, I think you are a loving mom who is doing her best to take care of her kids the best way she knows how. It appears to me that you may be confused on some points, but hey, we all make mistakes sometimes, thats how some guy got rich by putting erasers on one end of a pencil.


----------



## watcher

PrettyPaisley said:


> You accuse those who disagree with you of only seeing what they wish to see.


I do if you see a link between vaccines and autism. I have posted a link to an abstract which reviewed 20+ studies from AROUND THE WORLD which looked at MILLIONS of cases using different research methods and none, not one, zero of them found there was any link between the two.

We are not talking about one limited study. We are not talking about one large study. We are not talking about several studies done by one governmental agency or company or university. 

Yet there are people who claim, without posting proof, that these studies are 'flawed' because they are paid for by "Big Pharm". People who say because they have or know someone who has or know someone who knows someone whose cousin knows someone who had seemed to suddenly develop autism after being vaccinated is all the "proof" they need to show a link.

I challenge you to come up with 20 studies which cover 1,000,000+ cases which show a link.




PrettyPaisley said:


> The same can be said by the lockstep Big Gov't lemmings. ANYONE can be bought, ANYONE'S reputation can be ruined in the one minute sound bite world in which we live. What makes a headline discounting one doctors work any more important than another ? (Though I don't see many pro-vac folks here quoting Offit-I only see them bashing Wakefield but no anti-vax folks quoting either.)


The problem is relying on any one doctor's work. I know enough about studies and stats and data to know that I could do a study to show a link between swimming and pregnancy. And I'm sure I could find several women who discovered they were pregnant not long after they had gone swimming to hold up as examples. But if 20 other people or groups did studies of millions of women swimmers all of which showed there was no basis for thinking this would you still believe it?




PrettyPaisley said:


> If you choose to research further, if you choose you rely on your own efforts to dig for information and if you're willing to turn off CNN and really see the truth, it's out there. And I'm not talking about what you saw 60 years ago or who is buried in your family's plot. I'm talking now, today, sick kids today and what is being injected into them. To compare 1940s illnesses with 2014s vaccines makes no more sense than comparing wheat from the bible to what is grown in Iowa today.


Only because THEY WORK! Just what do you think would happen if we stopped vaccinating? Do you think whooping cough, measles, scarlet fever, polio and everything would magically stop at the US boarder?


----------



## MoonRiver

> The family of Hannah Polling will receive $1.5 million in damages and to pay for her care in the outcome of the first-ever successful Federal lawsuit charging that a childhood vaccine caused autism. And that's just for the first year. The award also includes $500,000 for her care each year from the second year on, as long as Hannah lives.
> 
> The Polling family could receive as much as $20 million over Hannah's lifetime, say observers familiar with the case.
> The award stems from a sealed settlement between the federal government and the Pollings reached in 2007, five years after the family filed suit in federal vaccine court claiming that a combination vaccine Hannah received in July 2000 caused her to develop autism.


http://www.huliq.com/8738/15m-plus-award-vaccine-autism-lawsuit


> The federal Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, better known as "vaccine court," has just awarded millions of dollars to two children with autism for "pain and suffering" and lifelong care of their injuries, which together could cost tens of millions of dollars.
> The government did not admit that vaccines caused autism, at least in one of the children. Both cases were "unpublished," meaning information is limited, and access to medical records and other exhibits is blocked. Much of the information presented here comes from documents found at the vaccine court website.
> Some observers will say the vaccine-induced encephalopathy (brain disease) documented in both children is unrelated to their autism spectrum disorder (ASD). Others will say there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise.
> What's more, these cases fit the pattern of other petitions, (i.e., Poling and Banks) in which the court ruled (or the government conceded) that vaccines had caused encephalopathy, which in turn produced permanent injury, including symptoms of autism and ultimately an ASD diagnosis.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/post2468343_b_2468343.html

I could have listed many more cases where the government has paid millions to settle autism/vaccines law suits. If there is no link, why is the government making settlements?


----------



## frogmammy

So, are mothers still holding "Pox parties" for their neighborhood and friends when their kids get Chicken Pox?

I know people on these very forums talked about holding the "parties" so their kids would get Chicken Pox while they were young, rather than when they were adults.

Mon


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> http://www.huliq.com/8738/15m-plus-award-vaccine-autism-lawsuit
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/post2468343_b_2468343.html
> 
> I could have listed many more cases where the government has paid millions to settle autism/vaccines law suits. If there is no link, why is the government making settlements?


Because fighting cases, especially involving children with irrational advocates is expensive, the vaccine could have had manufacturing defects that lead to problems, the administrator of the vaccine could have stored it wrong, or given the wrong amount or gave the wrong amount, etc etc etc.

You cite the government paying a court case tried through the government courts as proof that the government is lying. No questions over that? The attorneys may sue alleging the vaccine caused autism but it could well be that the awards are based on other conditions.

A person can have a reaction to a vaccination which may lead to an illness but the number of people involved in that sad outcome is miniscule compared to the ones left in the same condition if the disease becomes epidemic again.

No one is saying that a vaccination will never cause harm but that the harm of not vaccinating en mass is far, far, far, far worse.


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> Because fighting cases, especially involving children with irrational advocates is expensive, the vaccine could have had manufacturing defects that lead to problems, the administrator of the vaccine could have stored it wrong, or given the wrong amount or gave the wrong amount, etc etc etc.


I've never heard of the government not having the resources to fight a law suit. 



> No one is saying that a vaccination will never cause harm but that the harm of not vaccinating en mass is far, far, far, far worse.


That is probably true, but no one in this thread has argued the "greater good". Everyone arguing for vaccinations have said there is no link between autism and vaccinations. It sure seems to me that if there is no link, the government is setting an extremely bad precedent by paying damages.


----------



## FarmerKat

frogmammy said:


> So, are mothers still holding "Pox parties" for their neighborhood and friends when their kids get Chicken Pox?
> 
> I know people on these very forums talked about holding the "parties" so their kids would get Chicken Pox while they were young, rather than when they were adults.
> 
> Mon


I know several people that have done this.


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> I've never heard of the government not having the resources to fight a law suit.
> 
> That is probably true, but no one in this thread has argued the "greater good". Everyone arguing for vaccinations have said there is no link between autism and vaccinations. It sure seems to me that if there is no link, the government is setting an extremely bad precedent by paying damages.


If calmly looking back, you will find that exact point made repeatedly. 

The trouble is the adherence of anti vaccine people that autism is a consistent result to vaccinating. When autism might be the result of any inflamation or may be a genectic issue because so far all the studies have shown the same rate of autism in people who don't vaccinate as those who do. Yet, because there are so few people who don't vaccinate and therefore very few who had autism despite no vaccinations, the anti vaccine people make the giant leap over all the evidence into saying this proves the connection. 

Vaccinations have become the victims of their own success. They have prevented so much misery, disability and death that some people have been fooled into complacency that the rare reaction to a vaccination is much worse than the disease it prevents. If anti vaccinating peopke acknowledged the horrors of diseases that vaccinating prevents, then their concerns might not get such intense reactions. But to uphold the personal opinions, they must dismiss the clear evidence of history that diseases wreak havoc. And the battles lines get drawn.


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> If calmly looking back, you will find that exact point made repeatedly.


Please show me 2 examples.



> The trouble is the adherence of anti vaccine people that autism is a consistent result to vaccinating.


Again, please show me 2 examples.


----------



## arabian knight

where I want to said:


> If calmly looking back, you will find that exact point made repeatedly.
> 
> The trouble is the adherence of anti vaccine people that autism is a consistent result to vaccinating. When autism might be the result of any inflamation or may be a genectic issue because so far all the studies have shown the same rate of autism in people who don't vaccinate as those who do. Yet, because there are so few people who don't vaccinate and therefore very few who had autism despite no vaccinations, the anti vaccine people make the giant leap over all the evidence into saying this proves the connection.
> 
> Vaccinations have become the victims of their own success. They have prevented so much misery, disability and death that some people have been fooled into complacency that the rare reaction to a vaccination is much worse than the disease it prevents. If anti vaccinating peopke acknowledged the horrors of diseases that vaccinating prevents, then their concerns might not get such intense reactions. But to uphold the personal opinions, they must dismiss the clear evidence of history that diseases wreak havoc. And the battles lines get drawn.


 Yes that is correct. If these same people put more into what REALY is causing such problems instead of blaming just one thing vaccines they would be better off. But nope those that adhere to the anti vacs are stead fast in just saying that than trying to find what is causing it cause so far no scientific studies have put a link that vaccines cause autism, none. Oh the anti vaccine folks would like to think so as they hate government so much they cant see the truth and no there are no complete scientific studies to link the two together.


----------



## MoonRiver

arabian knight said:


> Yes that is correct. If these same people put more into what REALY is causing such problems instead of blaming just one thing vaccines they would be better off. But nope those that adhere to the anti vacs are stead fast in just saying that than trying to find what is causing it cause so far no scientific studies have put a link that vaccines cause autism, none. Oh the anti vaccine folks would like to think so as they hate government so much they cant see the truth and no there are no complete scientific studies to link the two together.


No, that is not correct.

No one has said that "autism is a consistent result to vaccinating". And no one has denied "the clear evidence of history that diseases wreak havoc." That is ridiculous and inflammatory.


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> Please show me 2 examples.
> 
> 
> Again, please show me 2 examples.


Posts # 13,21,26,89,95 and I stopped at page 6 because it was a boring exercise.


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> Posts # 13,21,26,89,95 and I stopped at page 6 because it was a boring exercise.


I checked the 1st 3, and my numbers must not match yours because 2 of the posts were by you. So I read the posts around them and NONE of them made either of the points you claim they make.

Saying that vaccines have killed children is not the same as saying vaccines always kill children. 

Just show me 1 example where someone made the claim that



> "autism is a consistent result to vaccinating"


which is what you wrote.


----------



## watcher

MoonRiver said:


> I've never heard of the government not having the resources to fight a law suit.


Its not their money so why bother fighting?


----------



## watcher

Again I will ask can anyone post links to 20 or so studies done in several different nations by many different agencies and using a few different methods involving millions of cases which show a link between vaccines and autism?


----------



## Evons hubby

Ok, I have spent the past hour or so searching for this evidence of vaccinations causing autism, and the latest (supposedly) whistle blowers comments and letter to his superiors at the CDC. So far I have found dozens of comments from the antivax crowd, and even came up with a letter he sent that has been of great interest to the antivax folks, but sadly it is in such tiny print its totally unreadable, and my comp doesnt seem to have what it takes to enlarge it. 

Here is what I have found, this is a partial snip of a letter released by the good Dr. Thompson Aug 27 2014:

"I regret my co-authors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data was collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.

I want to be absolutely clear that I believe vaccines have saved and continue to save countless lives.* I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefits.*" 

I think that last couple of lines (bolding mine) pretty well sums up this whistle blowers position. 

You can read the entire article here: http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/cd...ccines-given-to-pregnant-women-causes-autism/

In my estimation the antivax folks are grasping at any available straw that remotely supports their position, but then I am biased, over the years I have immunized all the kids in my household, (as I was as a child) and havent had any bad reactions to date.


----------



## MoonRiver

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Here is what I have found, this is a partial snip of a letter released by the good Dr. Thompson Aug 27 2014:
> 
> "I regret my co-authors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data was collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.
> 
> I want to be absolutely clear that I believe vaccines have saved and continue to save countless lives.* I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefits.*"
> 
> I think that last couple of lines (bolding mine) pretty well sums up this whistle blowers position.


Here's what you seem to be missing. When we talk about the general population, I think just about everyone agrees vaccines are fantastic and save lives. BUT, when it comes down to an individual child, a vaccine may cause tremendous injury.

For an agency like the CDC, they are probably OK with vaccines as long as the injury rate is less than 1 per 100,000 (I just made up this rate as an example). But as a parent, you might want to try to understand why that 1 in 100,000 child is injured, especially if your child is underdeveloped for their age or showing signs of immune deficiency, etc. 

Autism, like many other diseases, seems to be related to our modern society. Something man has introduced in our recent history seems to be causing it. From what I have read, I believe there is cause and there is a trigger. Many doctors believe that vaccines are likely the trigger and not necessarily the cause. Maybe that is why studies don't show a direct causal relationship.

And as far as the whistleblower's comments, there is one part you seemed to have ignored.


> the risks associated with their administration


He admits there are risks. What are the risks? How can they be minimized? What children are most at risk?
*
Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccine Filed Reports *(source)
Injured - 855
Deaths - 57
Total - 923
Compensated - 357
Dismissed - 489

Almost 4 in 10 claims have been compensated by the government just for the MMR vaccine.

Here's an example of the problem. Autism is just 1 of a wide range of diseases that is increasing at a dramatic rate. Why?









http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html


----------



## Evons hubby

Why? We could say flat screen tv's just as easily as vaccines... except vaccines have been around a lot longer without all of these increases in the incedence rates of autism... or we could take another guess... cell phones, or moms sitting in front of computers while pregnant, or..... any number of things.... why is the unknown, but scientific studies point more away from vaccines than toward them. Maybe its all that raw milk from cows that are grazed under power lines? Or the hole in the ozone? Or twinkies, or the progressive catch all for everything since the Jones town flood.... BUSH DID IT!


----------



## MoonRiver

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Why? We could say flat screen tv's just as easily as vaccines... except vaccines have been around a lot longer without all of these increases in the incedence rates of autism... or we could take another guess... cell phones, or moms sitting in front of computers while pregnant, or..... any number of things.... why is the unknown, but scientific studies point more away from vaccines than toward them. Maybe its all that raw milk from cows that are grazed under power lines? Or the hole in the ozone? Or twinkies, or the progressive catch all for everything since the Jones town flood.... BUSH DID IT!


Did you actually read what I wrote?

I didn't make the case that vaccines caused autism, but that it might be a *triggering event* for a specific subset of children.

And how many times do I have to say that the vaccine you had or the ones your children had are NOT the same vaccines given to children today. Pull out your vaccination records and match them up with what is recommended today.


----------



## Evons hubby

MoonRiver said:


> Did you actually read what I wrote?
> 
> I didn't make the case that vaccines caused autism, but that it might be a *triggering event* for a specific subset of children.
> 
> And how many times do I have to say that the vaccine you had or the ones your children had are NOT the same vaccines given to children today. Pull out your vaccination records and match them up with what is recommended today.


Yes, I read what you wrote.  And in this post you wrote pretty much the same thing... "it might be". My point was that it might be any number of other things too.

As to my vaccination records, those would be tricky to "pull out". I have to pretty much rely on memory. I distinctly recall the polio(shots, before the oral vaccine became available) and small pox vaxs, and remember getting others every year in school, but my folks werent big on keeping up with records that didnt apply to the IRS demands, and I have no records of my own. 

I am aware that things change in the medical world on a daily basis, that doesnt bother me at all, things change in every field of endeavor as improvements are developed. Our cars today are vastly superior to those of yesteryear. I expect to get at least 300k out of today cars, in the fifties you could hope for maybe 100k before they were worn out. In the fifties my throat cancer would have been the death sentence for me... but here I am, (thanks to improvements in the medical field), very much alive and a great source of irritation to those around me! 

You say vaccines might be a trigger among a specific subset of children. The diseases vaccines prevent are quite often deadly to those same children if left unvaccinated. And yes, life is a gamble, but for me, this one is a no brainer unless your child is definitely in that specific subset, and even then it takes very little to figure the odds and go with preventing the deadly disease.


----------



## FarmerKat

It is great that only 1 child among thousands has a negative long term reaction to a vaccine ... it just really sucks when it is YOUR child. We keep talking about autism, but how about the many other health problems that are associated with vaccines? For example, Guillain-Barre Syndrome is (albeit rare) a side effect of the flu vaccine. I know of a family who lost a child to Guillain-Barre after a flu shot ... Even if their child was the only one to die (and I do not know the statistics re. Guillain-Barre), do you think they were happy their baby was the only one and that his death was for the greater good? (Here is a link to CDC website that states that in rare cases the syndrome appears after a flu vaccine: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/guillainbarre.htm)

My son had an awful reaction to the Prevnar vaccine (I know which one, because we only used to vaccinate one shot at a time on our own schedule - we no longer vaccinate now). He was 2 years old, in so much pain he was unable to walk, was throwing up and covered in an awful rash. When his pediatrician treated him for the reaction, she said it was a "normal" side effect of the vaccine. As far as I am concerned, there was nothing "normal" about the suffering it caused him. It took my son a whole months to recover. And I certainly was not happy he was hurting for the greater good.

It seems like all of the pro-vaccine folks are so scared of any unvaccinated child ... why? If you are vaccinated, what do you have to worry about? Where we live, I have yet to find a pediatrician who will accept an unvaccinated child (or child that is vaccinated on an alternative schedule). One of the arguments that I hear from other parents is that they like it because they do not want to be in the same waiting room as an unvaccinated child. But what about the children they see in the playground, in school, in the store ... do they go around requesting a shot record from every parent they see? I have never met anyone who asked me if my kids were vaccinated before they would allow their kids to play with them. Nor have we lost any friends when they found out about our choice to stop vaccinating. 

And as for pulling vax records ... I actually do have mine - it is a very short list compared to the CDC schedule today. They were also given much later in life, not starting at birth.


----------



## haypoint

Anyone that says modern society is the cause of Autism, doesn't know much about Autism.
Modern society merely recognized a disorder that has been with us for perhaps thousands of years. The key word here is "recognized". 
For centuries we locked people up for any and all abnormal mental disorders. We mixed the Bi-polar with the learning impaired with the emotionally retarded with post-partum depression. Problem solved. 
It has only been recently that we have been enlightened enough to classify and separate and treat individual disorders.
To believe that Autism somehow appeared within the past 40 years, is to believe the entire Western Hemisphere sprung up, out of the vast ocean during Columbus' 1492 exploration. Just because you didn't recognize something, doesn't mean it didn't exist.

I think it is just awful to take recent advances in vaccine creation and recent advances in identification and treatment of brain disorders and throw them together into some convoluted cause/effect where no reasonable connection exists.

Yes, governments do settle lawsuits by paying for things that they are innocent. I am closely aware of a prisoner that filed suit, alleged Guards dumped him out of his wheelchair onto the floor. The State gave him $10,000. just to settle. A lengthy lawsuit would cost more and the State runs the risk of getting a cockeyed jury and losing the suit.


----------



## arabian knight

Yes lawsuits are styled all the time like that doesn't mean the party that paid off the other side is guilty of anything, just that it would drag on for years and cost plenty.


----------



## watcher

MoonRiver said:


> Did you actually read what I wrote?
> 
> I didn't make the case that vaccines caused autism, but that it might be a *triggering event* for a specific subset of children.
> 
> And how many times do I have to say that the vaccine you had or the ones your children had are NOT the same vaccines given to children today. Pull out your vaccination records and match them up with what is recommended today.


But the data DOES NOT SHOW ANY LINKAGE. Did you read the link I posted to the abstract of a study on world wide studies? They looked at 20 studies done around the world involving millions of cases and could find on linkage. If vaccines were a trigger then in that many cases there would be a large enough trend to show linkage.

As has been pointed out one reason the number of autism cases are increasing is the fact more people are being labeled autistic. Thinking back to my time in school I can think of several kids who would probable be labeled autistic today. But back then they were called 'slow' or 'unruly'. AAMOF, I had two guys who 'graduated' 8th grade (my school only with to 8th then you had to go 'city' school) with me who went to work as janitors at that same school the day after graduation, yep they were old enough to legally drop out after 8th grade. I'm sure both of them would be labeled as autistic today.

The same thing goes with ADHD. We have millions upon millions of cases today. I don't think there was a single case 30 years ago. Is that being caused or triggered by something or is it just that we now call it a disease and drug kids to keep them calm?


----------



## where I want to

FarmerKat said:


> It seems like all of the pro-vaccine folks are so scared of any unvaccinated child ... why? If you are vaccinated, what do you have to worry about? Where we live, I have yet to find a pediatrician who will accept an unvaccinated child (or child that is vaccinated on an alternative schedule). One of the arguments that I hear from other parents is that they like it because they do not want to be in the same waiting room as an unvaccinated child. But what about the children they see in the playground, in school, in the store ... do they go around requesting a shot record from every parent they see? I have never met anyone who asked me if my kids were vaccinated before they would allow their kids to play with them. Nor have we lost any friends when they found out about our choice to stop vaccinating.
> 
> And as for pulling vax records ... I actually do have mine - it is a very short list compared to the CDC schedule today. They were also given much later in life, not starting at birth.


The basic reason to fear the anti vaccination people is that no vaccination is a 100% effective , so if the percentage of people who aren't vaccinated increases enough that, added to the percentage of those who don't gain immunity, a third of the population becomes vulnerable to the disease. And that is enough to create danger for the disease spreading out of control. Even if you are vaccinated, presented with enough exposure, the disease can find a hold.

I do think there is something to be said for staging the shots over a longer period at a later age. But that is only a vague feeling. I do not know why that is not considered acceptable- if it is simply assumed or whether there is research showing that an early vaccination schedule is critical.


----------



## FarmerKat

watcher said:


> The same thing goes with ADHD. We have millions upon millions of cases today. I don't think there was a single case 30 years ago. Is that being caused or triggered by something or is it just that we now call it a disease and drug kids to keep them calm?



While there are environmental things that contribute to ADHD symptoms (food dyes are one example), I do believe that the reason for such a surge in ADHD diagnosis today is that we are pushing children into formal classroom setting too early in life. Four and five year olds are not developmentally ready to sit at a desk all day but in our society we have come to expect that of them. 

I do believe that there are true cases where individuals have trouble with focus and attention, but those people do not outgrow the condition and struggle with it for life. I bet if kids started school at 6 to 8 years old (not 4 to 5) and school was not an all day thing, we would see a huge decrease in the number of kids diagnosed with ADHD. Many kids are diagnosed at 3 or 4 years of age and drugged from that point on. So sad ...


----------



## FarmerKat

where I want to said:


> I do think there is something to be said for staging the shots over a longer period at a later age. But that is only a vague feeling. I do not know why that is not considered acceptable- if it is simply assumed or whether there is research showing that an early vaccination schedule is critical.


Honestly, when we vaccinated on a delayed basis, I went on "mom intuition" rather than science. I wish it were more acceptable to do so. It is interesting that with some vaccines, young babies have to get a series of 3-4 shots but if you vaccinate later, only 1 or 2 shots are needed. 

In my opinion, there are 2 contributing factors to the push for fast and early and they are unrelated to any science re. efficiency of the vaccines. Most kids go to day-cares from 6 - 12 weeks of age and remain in an all day school/childcare situation the rest of their childhood. I think if majority of children spent their preschool years at home, the push would not be there. Preschools and daycares require vaccinations.

The second factor is cost. When we vaccinated (1 shot at a time, once a month or further apart and only when my kids were 100% - no runny nose, etc.), it cost us a Dr visit co-pay each time. Not everyone is fortunate to be able to afford that.


----------



## where I want to

I did not think about day care- hardly done when I was young.


----------



## watcher

FarmerKat said:


> While there are environmental things that contribute to ADHD symptoms (food dyes are one example), I do believe that the reason for such a surge in ADHD diagnosis today is that we are pushing children into formal classroom setting too early in life. Four and five year olds are not developmentally ready to sit at a desk all day but in our society we have come to expect that of them.
> 
> I do believe that there are true cases where individuals have trouble with focus and attention, but those people do not outgrow the condition and struggle with it for life. I bet if kids started school at 6 to 8 years old (not 4 to 5) and school was not an all day thing, we would see a huge decrease in the number of kids diagnosed with ADHD. Many kids are diagnosed at 3 or 4 years of age and drugged from that point on. So sad ...


There's also the factor that most schools have removed most of the physical activity. Back in the stone age you had recess up til you were a young adult, i.e. a freshman in high school. You ran around, played tag, see who could cover the most distance when jumping out of the swings. When the bell rang you went back to class. When it was warm you were hot sweaty and making fans out of notebook paper to cool off. When it was cold you spent 20 minutes trying to stem the flow from your thawing nose.

Today most schools don't even have playgrounds and the ones that do there's not enough room to run much less play any games.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Just read about a about a terrible virus affecting children that the cdc says is racing across the country and killed several kids so far. Not very good treatment for it yet. It's resistant to most of our drugs. Wonder how it developed? Could be the fact they mutate to beat our system.


----------



## PrettyPaisley

Vahomesteaders said:


> Just read about a about a terrible virus affecting children that the cdc says is racing across the country and killed several kids so far. Not very good treatment for it yet. It's resistant to most of our drugs. Wonder how it developed? Could be the fact they mutate to beat our system.



I read that they are also most likely vaccinated kids. It's an obnoxious claim but you know that if these kids hadn't been vaxed it would be a headline. Never mind you don't vax for a virus - the general population wouldn't stop to consider that.


----------



## Molly Mckee

PrettyPaisley said:


> I read that they are also most likely vaccinated kids. It's an obnoxious claim but you know that if these kids hadn't been vaxed it would be a headline. Never mind you don't vax for a virus - the general population wouldn't stop to consider that. [/QUOTE
> 
> WHAT??????
> http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## bluefish

Pretty much all vaccinations are for viruses.


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## FarmerKat

Yes, it is scary for sure every time a new virus pops up that is resistant to existing treatments. IMO, it does not matter if the children were vaccinated or not because they would have been vaccinated against another virus. A polio vaccine will not protect you from the measles ... 

I wonder how many people have actually contracted it vs. how many are reported. Often people respond to a virus differently, some may have just very mild symptoms that they do not think twice about or seek care. But others with compromised immune systems are affected in a very serious way.


----------



## MDKatie

PrettyPaisley said:


> Never mind you don't vax for a virus - the general population wouldn't stop to consider that.


Is this a typo? :smack


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## DryHeat

I haven't been following this thread so haven't read everything; it does sound like this has been mentioned earlier but I don't know if with a link, so here's one http://www.bmj.com/content/330/7483/112.5 Details behind a paywall but this much shows from a Mayo Clinic study ten years ago: 


> Changes in the definition of autism, rather than use of the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine (MMR vaccine), led to increased diagnosis of autism in the United States and probably in Europe, says a study from the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota (_Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine_ 2005;159:37-44).
> Before the late 1980s and early 1990s, these children were diagnosed as retarded or having developmental delay, lead author William Barbaresi, a developmental paediatrician, told the _BMJ_.
> The prevalence of autism increased more than eightfold in the United States


 I've never seen the least reason to think this definition change and resulting increase in autism numbers wasn't THE total explanation behind all the hoo-ha about vaccines "causing" the condition.

Edit delete, since earlier statement was clarified as mis-spoken.

From what I've seen, there's really been one and only one (in the US anyway) serious failure of vaccine production and safety testing, the "Cutter Incident" of fifty years ago http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutter_Laboratories


> On April 12, 1955, Cutter Laboratories was one of several companies that the United States government licensed to produce Salk polio vaccine. In what became known as the *Cutter Incident*, some lots of the Cutter vaccine&#8212;despite passing required safety tests&#8212;contained live polio virus in what was supposed to be an inactivated-virus vaccine. Cutter withdrew its vaccine from the market on April 27 after vaccine-associated cases were reported. <snip>
> The Cutter incident was one of the worst pharmaceutical disasters in U.S. history, and exposed several thousand children to live polio virus on vaccination.[5] The NIH Laboratory of Biologics Control, which had certified the Cutter polio vaccine, had received advance warnings of problems: in 1954, staff member Dr. Bernice Eddy had reported to her superiors that some inoculated monkeys had become paralyzed (pictures were sent as well). William Sebrell, the director of NIH wouldn't hear of such a thing.[3]
> The mistake produced 120,000 doses of polio vaccine that contained live polio virus. Of children who received the vaccine, 40,000 developed abortive poliomyelitis (a form of the disease that does not involve the central nervous system), 56 developed paralytic poliomyelitis&#8212;and of these, five children died from polio.[6] The exposures led to an epidemic of polio in the families and communities of the affected children, resulting in a further 113 people paralyzed and 5 deaths.[5] The director of the microbiology institute lost his job, as did the equivalent of the assistant secretary for health. Oveta Culp Hobby stepped down. Dr Sebrell, the director of the NIH, resigned.[3]


 Balance this one mess-up from extreme urgency of doing something about the ongoing polio epidemic in those times with millions of lives saved and crippling side-effects avoided over the two centuries since smallpox vaccination began to be conceived and developed, and it's clear public heath officials have this one right and anti-vax folks don't.


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## PrettyPaisley

MDKatie said:


> Is this a typo? :smack



Yes. Treat for a virus. Thanks.


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## Molly Mckee

PrettyPaisley said:


> Yes. Treat for a virus. Thanks.


I still don't understand what you are trying to say.
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## watcher

Molly Mckee said:


> I still don't understand what you are trying to say.


I think she's trying to say there's no treatment for a viral infection. Which isn't quite true but close.


----------



## where I want to

watcher said:


> I think she's trying to say there's no treatment for a viral infection. Which isn't quite true but close.


But there are vaccines to minimize it in some cases- the flu for one. 
Rabies is caused by a virus.

Maybe polio?


----------



## watcher

where I want to said:


> But there are vaccines to minimize it in some cases- the flu for one.
> Rabies is caused by a virus.
> 
> Maybe polio?


You can prevent viral infections via pretreatment but once infected you really can't cure someone.


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## Molly Mckee

Most of the things you vaccinate for are viruses. You don't give antibiotics for a virus, you certainly treat the symptoms as well as any secondary infections. There are anti viral drugs that can help a viral infection. Polio and Ebola are virus, you certainly do treat viruses. 

It would probably help if people knew what they were promoting, when they are so positive they are right and they don't even know what vaccinations are for, how diseases are treated or how dangerous viruses can be. It shows how much the anti vac crowd studies what they are doing. Saying you don't treat a virus is as wrong as saying you don't vaccinate for a virus.


----------



## where I want to

watcher said:


> You can prevent viral infections via pretreatment but once infected you really can't cure someone.


In post 389, there was a statement that the sick children were mostly vaccinated. But of course not for this illness. It is a timely example of the issues under discussion now.


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## Vahomesteaders

It's simply saying that we keep vaccinating everything and something Stronger comes down the road. We are creating super bugs that will do far more damage.


----------



## where I want to

Vahomesteaders said:


> It's simply saying that we keep vaccinating everything and something Stronger comes down the road. We are creating super bugs that will do far more damage.


So it is better to die more often of known diseases, chosing to do nothing , rather than later of different diseases? But, since it is very possible to get a new more vigorous disease along with the old ones, not vaccinating doesn't keep that wolf away from the door anyway.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

where I want to said:


> So it is better to die more often of known diseases, chosing to do nothing , rather than later of different diseases? But, since it is very possible to get a new more vigorous disease along with the old ones, not vaccinating doesn't keep that wolf away from the door anyway.


Is about finding better treatment for diseases instead of pumping our kids up with vaccines that will create Stronger more deadly diseases.


----------



## where I want to

Vahomesteaders said:


> Is about finding better treatment for diseases instead of pumping our kids up with vaccines that will create Stronger more deadly diseases.


Strangely I have not heard of "vaccine" resistant disease. I suppose there may be a possible bug that mutates beyond the immune system's ability to cope but then they always had that attribute, which is why we had so many epidemics. Without vaccinations, a lot of people's immune system could not effectively overcome a disease in time to save the person.
And that is all a vaccine does- it primes an immune system to recognize a disease immediately so that the disease can be killed by the normal immune system inherent in most of us. 
Overcoming a disease through vaccination does not lead to disease resistence unless it was going to develop that way anyway. 
Now that a new disease comes along is not the result of vaccination unless the fact that more people survive the old diseases so they can be infected and spread the new disease counts. 
Now better treatment would leave surviving bacteria to evolve better ways to kill people.


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## Molly Mckee

Vaccines do not make super bugs, over use of antibiotics is one of the main things that makes super bugs. Why don't some of you people find out what you are talking about before you spread miss-information.


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## Vahomesteaders

Molly Mckee said:


> Vaccines do not make super bugs, over use of antibiotics is one of the main things that makes super bugs. Why don't some of you people find out what you are talking about before you spread miss-information.


Just one of the links to my misinformation. When I get to my pc I'll post the 3 dozen that show vaccines do cause mutations. 
http://healthimpactnews.com/2012/are-vaccines-creating-superbugs/


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## watcher

where I want to said:


> In post 389, there was a statement that the sick children were mostly vaccinated. But of course not for this illness. It is a timely example of the issues under discussion now.


And because they were not vaccinated against this virus about the only thing we can do is provide "supportive care" while the body itself fights.


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## watcher

Vahomesteaders said:


> It's simply saying that we keep vaccinating everything and something Stronger comes down the road. We are creating super bugs that will do far more damage.


Actually what's happening is we are preventing the stronger virus which were doing the most harm which allows lesser known and, in the virus world, weaker ones to infect us.

One reason more people die of cancer today than years past is because other things killed most people before they got old enough for cancer to kill them.


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## watcher

Vahomesteaders said:


> Is about finding better treatment for diseases instead of pumping our kids up with vaccines that will create Stronger more deadly diseases.


Care to point out any viral infection we have a cure for?


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## Molly Mckee

Vahomesteaders said:


> Just one of the links to my misinformation. When I get to my pc I'll post the 3 dozen that show vaccines do cause mutations.
> http://healthimpactnews.com/2012/are-vaccines-creating-superbugs/


I don't believe information when it is not scientific, does not identify specific studies, and just happen to be selling a book. For a study to be believable it has to be specific and reproducible. This is simply hype, looking for suckers. 

If you wanted to invest some time and effort you could really learn how legitimate studies are done, and why the type of information you are promoting is not done correctly. Here is a start, a legitimate study is reproducible.
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Vahomesteaders

Molly Mckee said:


> I don't believe information when it is not scientific, does not identify specific studies, and just happen to be selling a book. For a study to be believable it has to be specific and reproducible. This is simply hype, looking for suckers.
> 
> If you wanted to invest some time and effort you could really learn how legitimate studies are done, and why the type of information you are promoting is not done correctly. Here is a start, a legitimate study is reproducible.
> http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


Reproducible? Like evolution or the big bang? Good logic there.


----------



## MoonRiver

watcher said:


> Actually what's happening is we are preventing the stronger virus which were doing the most harm which allows lesser known and, in the virus world, weaker ones to infect us.
> 
> One reason more people die of cancer today than years past is because other things killed most people before they got old enough for cancer to kill them.


I doubt it. I bet whatever causes cells to mutate and become cancerous is more prevalent today than it was 100 years ago. Women are getting breast cancer at younger and younger ages. Same with prostate cancer.


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## FarmerKat

MoonRiver said:


> I doubt it. I bet whatever causes cells to mutate and become cancerous is more prevalent today than it was 100 years ago. Women are getting breast cancer at younger and younger ages. Same with prostate cancer.


I think it all goes back to the fact that we are much further removed from natural ways of living than 100 years ago - in many, many different ways. Toxins in our environment and food are just one but so are changes to lifestyle. 

Hundred years ago, women started having babies just as they got through puberty, nursed their babies for a couple of years and then got pregnant again. Their hormones went through an entirely different cycle than women today. Today an average girl goes through puberty, starts taking hormonal birth control, has 2 or 3 kids later that she nurses for a few months (if at all) and takes hormonal birth control in between to control when she has the kids. Breast cancer is largely related to estrogen and progesterone and what happens with these hormones in women's bodies today is nothing like what happened century or more ago. 

I am certainly not advocating that all 12-13 year olds get pregnant and start having babies one after another but since breast cancer came up, I am just pointing out yet another difference in our way of life today.


----------



## MoonRiver

Molly Mckee said:


> I don't believe information when it is not scientific, does not identify specific studies, and just happen to be selling a book. For a study to be believable it has to be specific and reproducible. This is simply hype, looking for suckers.
> 
> If you wanted to invest some time and effort you could really learn how legitimate studies are done, and why the type of information you are promoting is not done correctly. Here is a start, a legitimate study is reproducible.


That is a cop-out. Where are the replicated studies that show the ebola vaccine has been proven effective and safe, yet it is being recommended.


> On 2 September, a 39-year-old woman in Bethesda, Maryland, received a novel Ebola vaccine never given to humans before. In as little as 2 months, this same vaccine may go into the arms of thousands of health care workers and other first-line responders to the Ebola epidemic now wreaking havoc in West Africa. No experimental vaccine has ever been on a faster track toward widespread use. âItâs absolutely unprecedented,â said Marie-Paule Kieny, an assistant director-general at the World Health Organization (WHO). more


So I guess you don't think they should give the vaccine because it hasn't been proven and replicated in a scientific study.

Or, if you agree the vaccine should be given, does that mean you get to determine when information can be believed and others can't?


----------



## Molly Mckee

Vahomesteaders said:


> Reproducible? Like evolution or the big bang? Good logic there.


Google it-- you might actually learn something valuable.

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> That is a cop-out. Where are the replicated studies that show the ebola vaccine has been proven effective and safe, yet it is being recommended.
> 
> So I guess you don't think they should give the vaccine because it hasn't been proven and replicated in a scientific study.
> 
> Or, if you agree the vaccine should be given, does that mean you get to determine when information can be believed and others can't?


Nonsense, it is being rushed into production, abandoning normal procedures checking efficacy and safety because of the desperate nature of the disease. Trying to get a vaccine out there is the only hope to save the 50% of people who die from this disease.

It is like sending an untested army out to fight a war because the enemy is at the gates right now. It is better to test and evaluate but there is no time.


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> Trying to get a vaccine out there is the only hope to save the 50% of people who die from this disease.


So if the vaccine doesn't work, they just give up? Since it's the ONLY HOPE, I sure hope it works.

Or maybe it isn't the ONLY HOPE. Maybe they fall back on common sense things like following the CDCâs protocol for treating patients who test positive for âserious infectious diseases.â


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## Molly Mckee

What choice would you make if someone is dying? Try something that might or might not work or let them lie down and die? I don't believe there is enough to use in a widespread program. Frankly, I think that a dying patient should be allowed to try an experimental protocol when there is nothing else to offer, as long as the patient and and the family are in agreement and fully understand what their decision means. Even if the patient dies, he may save others. I think under certain conditions that is a reasonable thing to do.


----------



## MoonRiver

Molly Mckee said:


> What choice would you make if someone is dying? Try something that might or might not work or let them lie down and die? I don't believe there is enough to use in a widespread program. Frankly, I think that a dying patient should be allowed to try an experimental protocol when there is nothing else to offer, as long as the patient and and the family are in agreement and fully understand what their decision means. Even if the patient dies, he may save others. I think under certain conditions that is a reasonable thing to do.


So unless I am dying, I can only get scientifically approved standard treatment? Who decides what is approved? The drug companies? The government? The AMA?

Sounds like ObamaCare to me. You will get the treatment we have decided is best for you and we will decide when you just need to take a pain pill and die.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Molly Mckee said:


> Google it-- you might actually learn something valuable.
> 
> http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


Done so many times. It cannot be reproduced and was never witnessed thus does not even fit in the parameters of science.


----------



## where I want to

MoonRiver said:


> So if the vaccine doesn't work, they just give up? Since it's the ONLY HOPE, I sure hope it works.
> 
> Or maybe it isn't the ONLY HOPE. Maybe they fall back on common sense things like following the CDCâs protocol for treating patients who test positive for âserious infectious diseases.â


Even if every country could afford such care, and it's population had no irrational, fearful and uncooperative people in it, there would be a problem with a highly contagious disease like the flu when the sick out number the people and facilties to care for them.


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> Even if every country could afford such care, and it's population had no irrational, fearful and uncooperative people in it, there would be a problem with a highly contagious disease like the flu when the sick out number the people and facilties to care for them.


You sure change the subject whenever someone points out your errors.


----------



## Molly Mckee

Vahomesteaders said:


> Done so many times. It cannot be reproduced and was never witnessed thus does not even fit in the parameters of science.


What reproducible means in a scientific study is that if you do a study of 2000 people, of certain ages, sexes, ect. in a reported way, I should be able to get the same results, using the same type of study subjects and the same protocols. It's pretty simple, if the study that is done in the same way as the first study does not produce the same results, something is wrong and needs to be identified. Sometimes the reason is that the first study had errors. Sometimes it's something else, but that needs to be identified. If the first study can't be reproduced, then it's not valid.
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Molly Mckee said:


> What reproducible means in a scientific study is that if you do a study of 2000 people, of certain ages, sexes, ect. in a reported way, I should be able to get the same results, using the same type of study subjects and the same protocols. It's pretty simple, if the study that is done in the same way as the first study does not produce the same results, something is wrong and needs to be identified. Sometimes the reason is that the first study had errors. Sometimes it's something else, but that needs to be identified. If the first study can't be reproduced, then it's not valid.
> http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


Studies have many variables. Even if similar people are studied, genetic makeup and predisposition to certain things cab throw off entire studies. It's like polling 2500 Americans and saying 89% of the public feel this way. Well 2500 does not even register on the scale for the majority. Yet they say the majority has spoken. Take 2000 people in the us and 2000 people in Europe and the study results will vary. Every nation has its own bugs and its own approach to those bug's. So a vaccine study in America will differ from a vaccine study in Europe Africa etc.. And that strand of the disease is very likely different as well in each place. And it's people under a different genetic makeup and predisposition to other illnesses. So the studies can't really be trusted. So to say that the millions of children born each year with autism have no link to vaccines in any way shape or form, is being nieve.


----------



## MoonRiver

Molly Mckee said:


> What reproducible means in a scientific study is that if you do a study of 2000 people, of certain ages, sexes, ect. in a reported way, I should be able to get the same results, using the same type of study subjects and the same protocols. It's pretty simple, if the study that is done in the same way as the first study does not produce the same results, something is wrong and needs to be identified. Sometimes the reason is that the first study had errors. Sometimes it's something else, but that needs to be identified. If the first study can't be reproduced, then it's not valid.


Can you give me just 1 study that has been duplicated following the exact, original protocol that showed the same results?


----------



## arabian knight

Molly Mckee said:


> What choice would you make if someone is dying? Try something that might or might not work or let them lie down and die? I don't believe there is enough to use in a widespread program. Frankly, I think that a dying patient should be allowed to try an experimental protocol when there is nothing else to offer, as long as the patient and and the family are in agreement and fully understand what their decision means. Even if the patient dies, he may save others. I think under certain conditions that is a reasonable thing to do.


 And to make a scientific study done it MUST be done over and over again with many different samples and get the same results, and you got that right non have been shown to show vaccines ar causing autism, or even partly to blame. Not One.


----------



## where I want to

I've done with this thread for awhile. Although it is neccessary to respond to irrational arguments on such an important issue, when the arguments are down to dishonest sniping, it is enough to let the thread stand on its own merits.
The argument comes down to wanting to believe that vaccines have no good except to provide money to a drug company and dismissing the obvious history of epidemics as overblown, because it makes it easier to decide not to take a risk on reactions by vaccinating. If all the truth is reviewed, it is clear that vaccines prevent a lot of deaths and injuries while causing a very few clear problems and are being blamed for many more with no direct evidence.
I'm sorry that questioning these assumptions is treated as a personal insult by those wanting such an easy answer. But it is what it is- the bottom line is always that there is no possibility of anti-vaccine advocates agreeing that they are effected by outside forces such as disease as they always fall back on the idea that they personally have never seen anyone die of small pox. And that will be true as long as vaccines are successful- there will be few personal contacts of those horrors to bring reality in someone's face. 
And since nothing but their direct experience is meaningful to them, there is no way to move them even a bit. All that can ever be done is to raise the issues so people don't think that the anti-vaccine agenda is reality.


----------



## MoonRiver

where I want to said:


> I've done with this thread for awhile. Although it is neccessary to respond to irrational arguments on such an important issue, when the arguments are down to dishonest sniping, it is enough to let the thread stand on its own merits.
> The argument comes down to wanting to believe that vaccines have no good except to provide money to a drug company and dismissing the obvious history of epidemics as overblown, because it makes it easier to decide not to take a risk on reactions by vaccinating. If all the truth is reviewed, it is clear that vaccines prevent a lot of deaths and injuries while causing a very few clear problems and are being blamed for many more with no direct evidence.
> I'm sorry that questioning these assumptions is treated as a personal insult by those wanting such an easy answer. But it is what it is- the bottom line is always that there is no possibility of anti-vaccine advocates agreeing that they are effected by outside forces such as disease as they always fall back on the idea that they personally have never seen anyone die of small pox. And that will be true as long as vaccines are successful- there will be few personal contacts of those horrors to bring reality in someone's face.
> And since nothing but their direct experience is meaningful to them, there is no way to move them even a bit. All that can ever be done is to raise the issues so people don't think that the anti-vaccine agenda is reality.


You keep making blanket statements and every time you do, you are wrong. You can't say all, every, etc unless it really is all, every, etc. 

_"Nothing but their direct experience.._."

No one has made such a statement or even implied it in this thread

_"so people that don't think"_

insulting people is certainly not going to get them to agree with you
_
"no possibility of anti-vaccine advocates agreeing that they are effected by outside forces such as disease"

That's just strange. Everyone understands they are at risk. Where people differ is on how big and how threatening that risk is.
_
"dismissing the obvious history of epidemics as overblown"

No one said such a thing.


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## sammyd

Vahomesteaders said:


> Just one of the links to my misinformation. When I get to my pc I'll post the 3 dozen that show vaccines do cause mutations.
> http://healthimpactnews.com/2012/are-vaccines-creating-superbugs/


In your own link it says that


> âThe virus is always evolving and mutating, and new viruses will emerge,â He said. âItâs only a matter of time until the old vaccine we have doesnât work.â


There was nothing in that article that even hinted that vaccines cause the mutations.


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## watcher

Vahomesteaders said:


> Studies have many variables. Even if similar people are studied, genetic makeup and predisposition to certain things cab throw off entire studies. It's like polling 2500 Americans and saying 89% of the public feel this way. Well 2500 does not even register on the scale for the majority. Yet they say the majority has spoken. Take 2000 people in the us and 2000 people in Europe and the study results will vary. Every nation has its own bugs and its own approach to those bug's. So a vaccine study in America will differ from a vaccine study in Europe Africa etc.. And that strand of the disease is very likely different as well in each place. And it's people under a different genetic makeup and predisposition to other illnesses. So the studies can't really be trusted. So to say that the millions of children born each year with autism have no link to vaccines in any way shape or form, is being nieve.


But if there are many studies done, in many areas, using many different methods, covering millions of people and all the studies all agree you can be fairly sure the conclusions of those studies are true.

This is just what has happened with the autism-vaccine link. It has been studied and studied and studied and the conclusion of these studies is there is no link.


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## Molly Mckee

Vahomesteaders said:


> Studies have many variables. Even if similar people are studied, genetic makeup and predisposition to certain things cab throw off entire studies. It's like polling 2500 Americans and saying 89% of the public feel this way. Well 2500 does not even register on the scale for the majority. Yet they say the majority has spoken. Take 2000 people in the us and 2000 people in Europe and the study results will vary. Every nation has its own bugs and its own approach to those bug's. So a vaccine study in America will differ from a vaccine study in Europe Africa etc.. And that strand of the disease is very likely different as well in each place. And it's people under a different genetic makeup and predisposition to other illnesses. So the studies can't really be trusted. So to say that the millions of children born each year with autism have no link to vaccines in any way shape or form, is being nieve.


You and moon river might want to look up how true scientific studies are done before you embarrass yourselves any more. It is obvious that you have never worked with them or know how they are done. 

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## MoonRiver

Molly Mckee said:


> You and moon river might want to look up how true scientific studies are done before you embarrass yourselves any more. It is obvious that you have never worked with them or know how they are done.


That's just insulting. Why is it every time I ask you a question, you refuse to answer it. You keep throwing things out as if they are fact, but is actually your personal opinion. 

Medical studies are some of the least scientific studies there are. Over time, we see study after study proven wrong. When it comes to the human being, they just can't seem to control for all the variables. Plus they can't kill and dissect them like they do with animals. There are also ethical conflicts which can make it difficult to run experiments on humans. The cheapest study is where you ask the participants to self report. Extremely unreliable.

Look at the Seven Countries study done by Ancel Keyes on saturated fats and heart disease and you will find a biased study that came to an inaccurate and dangerous conclusion that set back nutrition policy in the US by at least 50 years. If more medical professionals would question conventional wisdom, we would all be better off.


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## watcher

MoonRiver said:


> That's just insulting. Why is it every time I ask you a question, you refuse to answer it. You keep throwing things out as if they are fact, but is actually your personal opinion.
> 
> Medical studies are some of the least scientific studies there are. Over time, we see study after study proved wrong. When it comes to the human being, they just can't seem to control for all the variables. Plus they can't kill and dissect them like they do with animals. There are also ethical conflicts which can make it difficult to run experiments on humans. The cheapest study is whe you ask the participants to self report. Extremely unreliable.
> 
> Look at the Seven Countries study done by Ancel Keyes on saturated fats and heart disease and you will find a biased study that came to an inaccurate and dangerous conclusion that set back nutrition policy in the US by at least 50 years. If more medical professionals would question conventional wisdom, we would all be better off.


Have you clicked on the link I have posted at least twice to the abstract which reviewed 20 studies from all over the world which covered millions of case histories?


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## Molly Mckee

I am not going to look thing up for you, you won't believe me anyway. It's very obvious you do not understand how a scientific study is done. If that insults you, why don't you fix it? Many legitimate studies show that vaccines do not cause autism. It is an excepted fact by the educated experts here and in other countries. You are trying to make a point when you don't understand how true, scientific conclusions are reached. If you want to be taken seriously, learn the basics, do real research.

When all the time and money is wasted on something that there is no real evidence is a problem, through many many studies, all you are doing is keeping the real reason for autism from being found. Is that really what you want?


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## Evons hubby

So far, all the studies I have read about, from both sides, weigh heavily in favor of vaccines being a pretty safe bet. Some minor issues have developed in some cases... but those are the oddity, not the norm and the good of vaccinations far outweighs the rare cases of problems that may or may not have been the result of the vaccine. Millions upon millions of lives saved outright, millions more lives saved from crippling disabilties.... versus MAYBE a few severe cases where someone developed the disease itself, or MAYBE the vaccination "triggered" other problems? I will go with vaccinating every time.


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## MoonRiver

Molly Mckee said:


> I am not going to look thing up for you, you won't believe me anyway. It's very obvious you do not understand how a scientific study is done. If that insults you, why don't you fix it? Many legitimate studies show that vaccines do not cause autism. It is an excepted fact by the educated experts here and in other countries. You are trying to make a point when you don't understand how true, scientific conclusions are reached. If you want to be taken seriously, learn the basics, do real research.
> 
> When all the time and money is wasted on something that there is no real evidence is a problem, through many many studies, all you are doing is keeping the real reason for autism from being found. Is that really what you want?


I imagine I have read more studies and taken more statistics classes than you have. I imagine I have taken more graduate level college courses than you have. One quotes scholarly research articles when you write graduate level papers, so I am very knowledgeable in how research is conducted and how research papers are written. I have also had to sit through long and tedious graduate level courses on how to do research and how to write research papers.

Research is biased from the very beginning because the person doing the study chooses the subject. Why does one choose a certain subject? Often because they have an interest in it. That interest implies a certain bias based on what they already know. Researchers HOPE to prove their hypothesis. 

The title of the college statistics book way back in my undergraduate days was _"How to Say Anything with Statistics"_. Have you ever heard the phrase "Lies, da**ed lies, and statistics"?

How often do you think studies are stopped when initial results don't show what the researchers are looking for to be true? How often is funding pulled when initial findings don't serve the drug company funding the study? How often are studies chosen because they can get grant money for that specific subject?

I have met some of the most close minded, biased people when I was in graduate school. They think they are smarter than everyone else and try to force their opinions on others. When these people do research, do you really believe it is not biased? As an example, try to find a scientific study by someone with a Masters or PhD in Women's Studies in which the results go against the women's lib orthodoxy. 

Put me on ignore, leave the thread if it upsets you, but stop with the insults.


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## MoonRiver

watcher said:


> Have you clicked on the link I have posted at least twice to the abstract which reviewed 20 studies from all over the world which covered millions of case histories?


Knowledge changes over time. As we learn new things, some things we thought were true prove not to be.

The field of epigenetics (altering the activity of genes without changing their structure) is a fairly new field and I would bet most researchers have little knowledge in this area. What epigenetics does is address the old nature nurture question. Our genes (nature) can be influenced by epigenetics (nurture/environment).

In my case, I have a genetic variation that leads to a higher rate of Alzheimers. There are certain things I can do or take that might reduce the odds of getting it. There are also bad things one can do that might increase the odds of getting Alzheimers. So if I eat a lot of junk food and don't do the other things I could be doing to reduce the odds of getting Alzheimers, and get it at age 80, was it because of genes or because of a poor diet? I say both.

And I think that's the part that may be missing in the studies of vaccines and autism. Do a small number of children have a genetic predisposition to autism and in those cases, does something in the vaccine trigger a reaction that may result, either directly or INDIRECTLY, in autism?

From what I have read, I believe autism is a symptom and not a disease. Heal the underlying disease and the symptoms go away. That's why it seems to me that autism is both nurture and nature. If autism is a symptom and not a disease, studies would not show a DIRECT link, but that doesn't mean there is not an indirect link.


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## MoonRiver

Yvonne's hubby said:


> So far, all the studies I have read about, from both sides, weigh heavily in favor of vaccines being a pretty safe bet. Some minor issues have developed in some cases... but those are the oddity, not the norm and the good of vaccinations far outweighs the rare cases of problems that may or may not have been the result of the vaccine. Millions upon millions of lives saved outright, millions more lives saved from crippling disabilties.... versus MAYBE a few severe cases where someone developed the disease itself, or MAYBE the vaccination "triggered" other problems? I will go with vaccinating every time.


You would follow the recommended schedule and dosing even if you had a very sickly and underdeveloped baby that was in icu for the 1st 2 months of life?


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## Evons hubby

MoonRiver said:


> You would follow the recommended schedule and dosing even if you had a very sickly and underdeveloped baby that was in icu for the 1st 2 months of life?


Most likely. I am not that familiar with "the recommended schedule" but I have a feeling that it includes things about these "exceptional" circumstances, as in making sure anyone who is to receive any vaccination is in good enough physical condition to deal with it. I never had any unusual situations to deal with. My kids were all pretty much normal, standard, garden variety, little brats and they got vaccinated, just like I did.


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## FarmerKat

So I just had to go look it up ... here is a link to the CDC recommended vaccines for children up to 6 years old (in easy to read format for parents): http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/downloads/parent-ver-sch-0-6yrs.pdf

To summarize the number of vaccines received by age (for some, there is a range - I counted them only once in the range):

Birth: 1
2 months: 8
4 months: 7
6 months: 9
12 months: 7
15 months: 3
2 years: 1
3 years: 1 
4-6 years: 9 (most kids get these at 4 or 5 so that they can enter Kindergarten)

I count MMR and DTaP as 3 vaccines as it is for 3 different diseases. But other vaccines also contain vaccines against multiple strains of the same virus (e.g. flu or PCV - PCV now has 13 different strains of the virus). 

Now take a look (I was born in 1973) - here is what I got before I turned 6:
3 months: DTaP (3)
4 months: DTaP, Polio (4)
8 months: Polio (1)
9 months: small pox (1)
10 months: DTaP (3)
1 year: Tuberculosis (1)
2 1/2 years: Polio (1)
3 years: Polio (1)
5 years: DTap (3)

That adds up to vaccines for 6 diseases and total number of vaccines in the first 6 years of my life 18.

Compare that to children being vaccinated against 14 disease today with a total of 46 vaccines in the first 6 years. 

Just food for thought ...


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## FarmerKat

Another food for thought ... when we did vaccinate on a delayed schedule, only one shot at a time, my son had an awful reaction to Prevnar (PCV) but we never had any other reaction - no fever, no redness, nothing ... My friends who vaccinated according to the recommended schedule generally had 1-3 days of their kids not feeling well - usually redness, swelling, low grade fever ... all considered normal (I disagree with the "normal" part but that's just me). In my mind that shows the load the vaccines put on little babies' bodies. 

Even if I do not feel that vaccinations are the right thing for our family anymore, I am not "anti-vaccines" in general. I feel strongly that children should be vaccinated on a much more spread out schedule later in life.


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## watcher

MoonRiver said:


> And I think that's the part that may be missing in the studies of vaccines and autism. Do a small number of children have a genetic predisposition to autism and in those cases, does something in the vaccine trigger a reaction that may result, either directly or INDIRECTLY, in autism?


If this were the case in the vast studies which have been done (remember there have been MILLIONS of cases studied) if there had been even half of a percent of the kids with such a predisposition it should have shown up.




MoonRiver said:


> From what I have read, I believe autism is a symptom and not a disease. Heal the underlying disease and the symptoms go away. That's why it seems to me that autism is both nurture and nature. If autism is a symptom and not a disease, studies would not show a DIRECT link, but that doesn't mean there is not an indirect link.


The latest thing I have read is pointing to autism being a physical condition (genetic or not is not known) which is caused by too many 'connections' in the brain. If this is the case then I don't see how anything, other than normal human maturation, which could trigger it.


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## MoonRiver

watcher said:


> The latest thing I have read is pointing to autism being a physical condition (genetic or not is not known) which is caused by too many 'connections' in the brain. If this is the case then I don't see how anything, other than normal human maturation, which could trigger it.


What I heard in a video was that the different senses are out of sync in the brain. Imagine you are playing a video game and your sight, touch, and hearing are slightly out of sync. What kind of picture would you have in your brain?

So the tendency is to shut down because the more sense information that comes in, the worse it gets. Through brain imaging, they are able to see this. With successful treatment, they are able to get the brain to properly synchronize.


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## haypoint

Autism is neither a disease or a symptom. It is a mental disorder. There is a wide range within this disorder. Asperger's Syndrome is within this disorder. The star in the movie Rainman would be an example. Temple Grandin would be another. Dr. Sheldon Cooper on Big Bang is likely Asperger's, too. 

In the 1960s it was called Autism. Prior to that it was often referred to as being nuts or off in the head.


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## MoonRiver

haypoint said:


> Autism is neither a disease or a symptom. It is a mental disorder. There is a wide range within this disorder. Asperger's Syndrome is within this disorder. The star in the movie Rainman would be an example. Temple Grandin would be another. Dr. Sheldon Cooper on Big Bang is likely Asperger's, too.
> 
> In the 1960s it was called Autism. Prior to that it was often referred to as being nuts or off in the head.


Mental disorder simply means it has a behavioral component.

According to NIH, autism (ASD) has both genetic and environmental (epigenetic) causes.


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## arabian knight

We are not talking about what it is NOW, the post was years ago they the doctors and others just dismissed what is called today as autism as some kind of metal disorder, and nothing more. And rise in it today is they KNOW what to called this and so more are being diagnosed as having autism then years ago. Simple as that.


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## watcher

MoonRiver said:


> What I heard in a video was that the different senses are out of sync in the brain. Imagine you are playing a video game and your sight, touch, and hearing are slightly out of sync. What kind of picture would you have in your brain?
> 
> So the tendency is to shut down because the more sense information that comes in, the worse it gets. Through brain imaging, they are able to see this. With successful treatment, they are able to get the brain to properly synchronize.


Google "autism brain connections". 

From one place:

_Researchers report that children with autism appear to have excess synapses -- cellular connections -- in their brains compared with typical children._

_The extra synapses in the brains of autistic children are due to a slowdown in the normal brain "pruning" process during development, the researchers believe._
_
. . . published online Aug. 21 in the journal Neuron._

It was a small study (26 cases) but it does point more to a possible genetic link than a chemical one.

I haven't read the study, as stated I'm not really that interested in autism and its possible causes. Its my understand with all the extra connection small stimulations which would be no problem at all for a normal brain totally overwhelm the autistic's brain.


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## MoonRiver

arabian knight said:


> We are not talking about what it is NOW, the post was years ago they the doctors and others just dismissed what is called today as autism as some kind of metal disorder, and nothing more. And rise in it today is they KNOW what to called this and so more are being diagnosed as having autism then years ago. Simple as that.


It's not that simple. The rate of autism is still increasing.


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## MoonRiver

watcher said:


> It was a small study (26 cases) but it does point more to a possible genetic link than a chemical one.


Genetics by themselves are often not the cause of disease. It is the combination of the genetic disposition PLUS environment.


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## mmoetc

MoonRiver said:


> It's not that simple. The rate of autism is still increasing.


And it's not that simple. The rate of recognition has increased. Whether the rate of occurance has is hard to judge. There are many more resources put into identifying and labeling today because there are resources and money and jobs available to support this growth industry. I can look back 35+/- years and identify 7-10 of my third through sixth grade classmates who would have today qualified for some special attention. Then they were just disciplinary problems. I also knew kids who had a sibling that didn't attend regular school or were otherwise institutionized. Today some of these kids would be mainstreamed into public schools. 


I have a three year old grandson who has had speech and learning therapy since he was about 18 months. He aged out of this early intervention program a couple of months ago having shown great progress in the areas he needed help. The last thing his therapists told my daughter upon hearing that a move to another state and different programs was coming up was- Don't ever let anyone tell you he's on the spectrum. It's the easy way out.


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## haypoint

MoonRiver said:


> Genetics by themselves are often not the cause of disease. It is the combination of the genetic disposition PLUS environment.


Here is some information. At the end of this web site is a list or organizations that deal with Autism. I'd suggest that those interested in determining a connection between vaccinations and Autism, simply email all these groups for an educated opinion.
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/autism/detail_autism.htm

Yes, the number of children diagnosed as autistic is going up. However, over the last 40 years the number of children diagnosed as "retarded", "nuts", "off in the head", "tongue tied" or "dumb" has dropped dramatically. Coincidence?


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## watcher

MoonRiver said:


> It's not that simple. The rate of autism is still increasing.


Is the rate of autism increasing or is the rate of diagnosing it increasing.

Back years ago if you start coughing a lot then started coughing up blood and finally died gasping for breath you were listed as dying from either "consumption" or tuberculosis. As medicine got better the rate of lung cancer went up because we were able to tell cancer from TB.


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## watcher

MoonRiver said:


> Genetics by themselves are often not the cause of disease. It is the combination of the genetic disposition PLUS environment.


I guess there could be some environmental factors which could cause someone to be born with too many connections in their brain but I can't think of anything could cause it to happen after birth.


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## MoonRiver

watcher said:


> Is the rate of autism increasing or is the rate of diagnosing it increasing.
> 
> Back years ago if you start coughing a lot then started coughing up blood and finally died gasping for breath you were listed as dying from either "consumption" or tuberculosis. As medicine got better the rate of lung cancer went up because we were able to tell cancer from TB.


The rate has increased since 2000. You tell me why.










And it may be as many as 1 in 50 today. All I can think is somebody must be making a lot of money off autism for the rate to be increasing that quickly.


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## Vahomesteaders

All the proof we need is our own experience. In the late 80s and early 90s, I went to a school of 1200 kids. I knew most everybody. I recall not one with autism symptoms. We had a few blind and retarded children but not one with these symptoms. That same school today with only 800 students has two entire classes devoted to just autism with about 20 kids per class. No down syndrome or other disabilities in those classes. Just autistic children. Explain that.


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## haypoint

MoonRiver said:


> The rate has increased since 2000. You tell me why.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And it may be as many as 1 in 50 today. All I can think is somebody must be making a lot of money off autism for the rate to be increasing that quickly.


Please think of something else. Identification, no money is the reason. If you won't get any of Temple Grandin's books on Autism, perhaps you can Netflix the movie Temple Grandin. he often does speaking tours. Perhaps you could attend one.

If breast cancer has an environmental cause, like obesity, we can expect an increase in breast cancer. but 50 years ago a lot of breast cancer was simply lumpy breasts and women died from lymphoma instead of breast cancer. Identification is the key, the change in numbers. Same with Autism. Mild cases were never diagnosed, the child was simply odd. If you combed through the historical records of any of the hundreds of State Mental Institutions, you'd see many patients that obviously has Autism.


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## Evons hubby

MoonRiver said:


> The rate has increased since 2000. You tell me why.


I can think of a couple reasons. First out of the gate would be there are a lot more parents these day looking for any excuse to get on the dole, I personally know of two families who went to dozens of doctors in order to get their kids "properly diagnosed" with conditions so they would qualify for gov handouts. You would be hard pressed to pick those kids out of any group of "normal" kids on any playground.... there is not a durn thing wrong with those kids, their parents? thats a whole nuther subject. 

Secondly in recent years the definition of autism has been expanded to include many other conditions that previously had their own classification. Those kids now fall in the autistic group, thus raising the rates of autism.


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## MoonRiver

watcher said:


> I guess there could be some environmental factors which could cause someone to be born with too many connections in their brain but I can't think of anything could cause it to happen after birth.


Our brains are constantly making and destroying connections. It's how we learn. I googled what you recommended and found that the study confirms what I had posted.



> during axon formation the nerve fibers seem to have difficulty in finding correct connection points to link to in the brain. more


This is what is causing sense information to be out of sync. 

And this one.



> Does motivational interest increase gamma synchrony across neuronal networking to enable computation of related sensory inputs that might lead to greater social understanding in autism spectrum conditions (ASC)? Meaning, is it possible/likely that in autism because individuals process one aspect of sensory input at any one time (therefore missing the wider picture in general) when they are motivated/interested or attending to particular stimuli their attention window is widened due to increased gamma synchrony and they might be enabled to connect in ways that do not occur when they are not motivated? This is my current research question. If gamma synchrony is helping with the binding of information from collective sensory inputs, in ASC, when and only if the individual is motivated, then this has huge potential for how learning might be encouraged for individuals with an ASC. more


That didn't completely make sense so I looked up gamma synchrony and found this.



> Gamma Brain Waves have also been linked to having a great memory and an increased perception of reality. People lacking in Gamma Brainwaves tend to experience difficulties with learning and mental processing. Usually people with impaired or retarded mental functioning tend to have significantly less Gamma Brainwave activity than those who have average and above-average intelligences. There seems to be a correlation with higher amounts of Gamma Brainwave activity and increased brain functioning ability.


My guess is they're half right. I don't think it is motivational interest, but probably some increased hormone that results from it. Does a person's adrenalin or cortisol increase when they are motivated? What if they can't produce enough of either? I have my doubts it would work long term.

Again, I go back to fixing the underlying cause. Why does the person have low gamma waves? Could it be fixed by getting poisons out of the body and combining that with proper brain nutrition?

I'm sure that if low gamma waves are the problem, some pharmaceutical company will come up with medication to raise it. Treat the symptom and not the cause.


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## MoonRiver

haypoint said:


> If breast cancer has an environmental cause, like obesity, we can expect an increase in breast cancer. but 50 years ago a lot of breast cancer was simply lumpy breasts and women died from lymphoma instead of breast cancer. Identification is the key, the change in numbers. Same with Autism. Mild cases were never diagnosed, the child was simply odd. If you combed through the historical records of any of the hundreds of State Mental Institutions, you'd see many patients that obviously has Autism.


Do you really believe that?



> About 85% of breast cancers occur in women who have no family history of breast cancer. These occur due to genetic mutations that happen as a result of the aging process and *life in general*, rather than inherited mutations. more


Life in general means environmental.

OK, how many of you reading this had a grandmother or great grandmother that lived past the age of 60 that had breast cancer?


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## haypoint

MoonRiver said:


> Do you really believe that?
> 
> OK, how many of you reading this had a grandmother or great grandmother that lived past the age of 60 that had breast cancer?


I do really believe that many women have died that had undiagnosed breast cancer. Early detection is a fairly new development. In the past, undiagnosed breast cancer spread into the lymph nodes or other organs and breast cancer was not listed as the cause of death.
But, because of public awareness, many cases of breast cancer are diagnosed and treated. This increase in awareness increases the number of cases. 
To classify recognition of autism as proof of an increase is like claiming mammograms cause breast cancer. after all, since wide spread use of mammograms, the cases of breast cancer have sky rocketed.

I used breast cancer as an example of how detection of something, like Autism, creates an increase in the number of identified cases, not necessarily an increase in the disorder/disease. Didn't think we'd sidetrack to a debate on historical lack of breast cancer deaths. Sorry.


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## haypoint

I have a nephew that is 35 years old and Autistic. He can do anything that interests him, but cannot be forced to learn anything that doesn't interest him. He cannot add two and two. Just clams up. But he knows which Sunday the Lions Club has their Brunch. He can't pass a driver's test, even when given orally. But he can operate a tractor with a 3 point hitch back scoop like a pro. Talks very little but is an expert at adding enough conversation to keep people talking. Change is upsetting to him. Rides his bicycle 18 miles round trip to town daily, often pulling a 2 wheel cart to carry anything he may choose to haul. He once cross country skied 5 miles through the woods that he'd never been in, without trails, in sub zero temperatures and came out a few hundred feet from his grandmother's house. It is an interesting disorder.
I know others with Autism that are hundreds of pounds over weight and just grunt and are often aggressive. I know one guy that doesn't talk, just noises and gestures, but holds a job of sorting recyclables.


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## MoonRiver

haypoint said:


> I used breast cancer as an example of how detection of something, like Autism, creates an increase in the number of identified cases, not necessarily an increase in the disorder/disease. Didn't think we'd sidetrack to a debate on historical lack of breast cancer deaths. Sorry.


But it's the same issue I am arguing. I believe that changes in our environment have caused new human diseases plus increased the rates of occurrence of other diseases, breast cancer being one. They tried to pin increase in breast cancer rate on use of hormone replacement. Well if hormones are the problem, what about all the hormones in meat and milk? We know girls reach puberty at younger and younger ages. Maybe because of all the hormones in the food they eat?

We put fake foods into our bodies and when it gets broken down, there is stuff our bodies have no idea what to do with it. Where does it go?

For millions of years, changes in the human environment happened over hundreds or even thousands of years. Now we are changing our environment on a yearly basis. Or fly to Asia and change it immediately. Don't you think all the rf we are emitting could be interfering with the low voltage system in our body? Or that going from an all natural diet to what we have today could make a difference? Or that all the chemicals they dump in our drinking water could make a difference?

Think of the magic of the human body and realize we are doing things to it that effect it at the cellular level. The obvious is that obesity goes up, but so does diabetes, alzheimers, cancer, mls, arthritis, and every other disease that has inflammation as its basis. Our bodies are in a constant state of inflammation.


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## FarmerKat

mmoetc said:


> I have a three year old grandson who has had speech and learning therapy since he was about 18 months. He aged out of this early intervention program a couple of months ago having shown great progress in the areas he needed help. The last thing his therapists told my daughter upon hearing that a move to another state and different programs was coming up was- Don't ever let anyone tell you he's on the spectrum. It's the easy way out.


Are you serious??? You say it is the easy way out to have a child with a neurological disorder (i.e. Autism Spectrum Disorder)??? 

There are many other conditions that present themselves with similar behavioral symptoms - sensory processing disorder, auditory processing disorder, ADHD, hearing problems, vision problems, etc. It is CRITICAL for parents to know a proper diagnosis so that they can help their child cope with the challenges these disorders bring. Knowing what the underlying issue is can mean night and day in how well your child adjusts to challenges of daily life. 

Many people throw the autism label around but the truth is that most pediatricians, psychologists, speech pathologists and occupational therapists are not properly equipped to make the right diagnosis. It needs to be made by a developmental pediatrician or a neurologist. It also sometimes takes many different tests by other medical professionals to rule out other conditions. 

Individuals with autism can and do live fulfilling lives and accomplish great things. One of our friends was told her son would never be able to have a conversation when he was a little boy ... when they told her that, she pulled him out school (because if that was their attitude toward him, it was not a healthy environment for him), started homeschooling him and learned what he needed to thrive. He is in college now, is popular with his friends, has good relationship with his girlfriend and is an Eagle Scout. But our friend did not certainly take the easy way out, did she???

My son who is on the autism spectrum used to hide in a corner all scared in a group of kids when he was little ... we have taught him to recognize how he feels and now he is perfectly comfortable in a room of 40 kids. But when he starts feeling uneasy, he takes a break, finds something to do alone in his own space for while and then goes back to the group. He has learned to do this when he was 4 years old. If we never took the time to learn what is going on and why, we would have never been able to teach him how to cope when overwhelmed. 

I mentioned in one of my prior posts that we completely overhauled what we eat and what we use in our household. I also took ABA classes from a local university (Applied Behavior Analysis can be extremely helpful with kids on the autism spectrum) and we homeschool. 

Try for a week to change your diet to gluten-free, dairy-free, soy-free, GMO-free, artificial color/flavor/preservative free, MSG-free, synthetically produced nitrate/nitrite-free, try making every single meal from scratch (starting with milling your own flour). Also remove every artificial scent from your house (soap, laundry detergent, shampoo, deodorant, toothpaste, etc.) and replace all plastic cooking utensils with ones made from natural materials. And after you try it come and tell me if that is an easy way out.

I apologize that this go so much off topic from the "are vaccines safe" question ... but saying that ASD diagnosis is an easy way out really hit a nerve with me.


----------



## mmoetc

FarmerKat said:


> Are you serious??? You say it is the easy way out to have a child with a neurological disorder (i.e. Autism Spectrum Disorder)???
> 
> There are many other conditions that present themselves with similar behavioral symptoms - sensory processing disorder, auditory processing disorder, ADHD, hearing problems, vision problems, etc. It is CRITICAL for parents to know a proper diagnosis so that they can help their child cope with the challenges these disorders bring. Knowing what the underlying issue is can mean night and day in how well your child adjusts to challenges of daily life.
> 
> Many people throw the autism label around but the truth is that most pediatricians, psychologists, speech pathologists and occupational therapists are not properly equipped to make the right diagnosis. It needs to be made by a developmental pediatrician or a neurologist. It also sometimes takes many different tests by other medical professionals to rule out other conditions.
> 
> Individuals with autism can and do live fulfilling lives and accomplish great things. One of our friends was told her son would never be able to have a conversation when he was a little boy ... when they told her that, she pulled him out school (because if that was their attitude toward him, it was not a healthy environment for him), started homeschooling him and learned what he needed to thrive. He is in college now, is popular with his friends, has good relationship with his girlfriend and is an Eagle Scout. But our friend did not certainly take the easy way out, did she???
> 
> My son who is on the autism spectrum used to hide in a corner all scared in a group of kids when he was little ... we have taught him to recognize how he feels and now he is perfectly comfortable in a room of 40 kids. But when he starts feeling uneasy, he takes a break, finds something to do alone in his own space for while and then goes back to the group. He has learned to do this when he was 4 years old. If we never took the time to learn what is going on and why, we would have never been able to teach him how to cope when overwhelmed.
> 
> I mentioned in one of my prior posts that we completely overhauled what we eat and what we use in our household. I also took ABA classes from a local university (Applied Behavior Analysis can be extremely helpful with kids on the autism spectrum) and we homeschool.
> 
> Try for a week to change your diet to gluten-free, dairy-free, soy-free, GMO-free, artificial color/flavor/preservative free, MSG-free, synthetically produced nitrate/nitrite-free, try making every single meal from scratch (starting with milling your own flour). Also remove every artificial scent from your house (soap, laundry detergent, shampoo, deodorant, toothpaste, etc.) and replace all plastic cooking utensils with ones made from natural materials. And after you try it come and tell me if that is an easy way out.
> 
> I apologize that this go so much off topic from the "are vaccines safe" question ... but saying that ASD diagnosis is an easy way out really hit a nerve with me.


I didn't say it was the easy way out for those with the condition or those parents dealing with it. It is the easy label for mÃ ny caregivers to tag kids with to access the programs and funding rather than dealing with what the child may actually need.


----------



## haypoint

MoonRiver said:


> But it's the same issue I am arguing. I believe that changes in our environment have caused new human diseases plus increased the rates of occurrence of other diseases, breast cancer being one. They tried to pin increase in breast cancer rate on use of hormone replacement. Well if hormones are the problem, what about all the hormones in meat and milk? We know girls reach puberty at younger and younger ages. Maybe because of all the hormones in the food they eat?
> 
> We put fake foods into our bodies and when it gets broken down, there is stuff our bodies have no idea what to do with it. Where does it go?
> 
> For millions of years, changes in the human environment happened over hundreds or even thousands of years. Now we are changing our environment on a yearly basis. Or fly to Asia and change it immediately. Don't you think all the rf we are emitting could be interfering with the low voltage system in our body? Or that going from an all natural diet to what we have today could make a difference? Or that all the chemicals they dump in our drinking water could make a difference?
> 
> Think of the magic of the human body and realize we are doing things to it that effect it at the cellular level. The obvious is that obesity goes up, but so does diabetes, alzheimers, cancer, mls, arthritis, and every other disease that has inflammation as its basis. Our bodies are in a constant state of inflammation.


Girls reach puberty because they received plentiful nutrition their whole lives. That was mostly missing in the previous 5,000 years. 
If you wonder what your body does with what it doesn't know what to do with, turn around before you flush. There's your answer.

I don't know what chemicals they are dumping in your water, But it is likely to be healthier than the e coli and salmonella our ancestors got from drinking downstream from the beaver dam.

An increase in the recognition of a disease isn't an increase of the disease. In the past hundred years, astrologists have discovered more stars than in the previous 5,000 years. I say they have always been there, only now we recognize them. You seem to be saying that something modern man has done has created millions of stars that didn't exist previously. Same for Autism. I say it was always there, just recently recognized. You believe by classifying it, it is on the upswing?


----------



## FarmerKat

mmoetc said:


> I didn't say it was the easy way out for those with the condition or those parents dealing with it. It is the easy label for mÃ ny caregivers to tag kids with to access the programs and funding rather than dealing with what the child may actually need.


You are right. And I apologize for flying off the handle ...


----------



## mmoetc

FarmerKat said:


> You are right. And I apologize for flying off the handle ...


no worries. I understand dealing with issues in kids can ramp up sensitivity.


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## MoonRiver

haypoint said:


> Girls reach puberty because they received plentiful nutrition there whole lives. That was mostly missing in the previous 5,000 years.


So it's nutrition and not environment?



> Research into environmental toxins and their effects on hormones has proven insightful into how a child environment can affect precocious puberty. Dr. Mary Wolff, along with colleagues at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine, published a report in March 2010 on the effects of certain chemicals found in a wide variety of everyday consumer products, including nail polishes, cosmetics, perfumes, lotions and shampoos. *The results show a direct relationship between use of these products and early breast and pubic hair development in girls*. more





haypoint said:


> If you wonder what your body does with what it doesn't know what to do with, turn around before you flush. There's your answer.


Wouldn't it be nice if it was that simple. Toxins are often absorbed into your fat and organs.


> Seems simple enough, but all of a sudden *the body doesnât know what to make of the end product*. The trans fats go on to incite havoc in cell metabolism. Research indicates trans fats cause comparatively more weight gain than the same diet with monounsaturated fats and a *redistribution of body fat tissue to the abdominal area*, the riskiest place to carry extra padding. Additionally, theyâre *associated with inflammation and **atherosclerosi*s. more





> Another study (PDF) examined how aflatoxin, when fed to a cow, was *distributed throughout the animalâs tissues, with particular emphasis on the internal organs*. Researchers dosed a 160 kg calf with 52 mg aflatoxin per day for five days, then slaughtered the animal and analyzed its tissues for aflatoxin levels. Aflatoxin was found in all cuts, but it was *concentrated mostly in the kidneys and, to a lesser extent, the liver*.





haypoint said:


> I don't know what chemicals they are dumping in your water, But it is likely to be healthier than the e coli and salmonella our ancestors got from drinking downstream from the beaver dam.


 Let's just look at fluoride.


> In 2006, a study published in _The Lancet_ identified fluoride as "an emerging neurotoxic substance" that causes severe brain damage. The National Research Council (NRC) wrote that "it is apparent that fluorides have the ability to *interfere with the functions of the brain and the body* by direct and indirect means."
> 
> About a month later, another study published in _Environmental Health Perspectives_ found a definitive link between fluoride intake and *reduce IQ levels*, indicating once again that fluoride intake causes cognitive damage.
> 
> At Harvard University, researchers identified a link between fluoride and bone cancer. Published 14 years after it began, the study found that the highest rates of osteosarcoma, a fatal form of *bone cancer*, were occurring most in populations drinking fluoridated water. The findings confirmed those of a prior government study back in 1990 that involved fluoride-treated rats.
> 
> Kidney disease is another hallmark of fluoride poisoning. Multiple animal studies have found that fluoride levels as low as 1 part per million (ppm) -- which is the amount added to most fluoridated water systems -- cause kidney damage. And a Chinese study found that children exposed to slightly higher fluoride levels had biological markers in their blood indicative of *kidney damage*. more





haypoint said:


> An increase in the recognition of a disease isn't an increase of the disease. In the past hundred years, astrologists have discovered more stars than in the previous 5,000 years. I say they have always been there, only now we recognize them. You seem to be saying that something modern man has done has created millions of stars that didn't exist previously. Same for Autism. I say it was always there, just recently recognized. You believe by classifying it, it is on the upswing?


Terrible analogy and everything you attribute to me, I didn't say nor do I believe it. There is overwhelming proof that our environment is making us sick. The debate is about "how sick".

Think of our bodily systems like software programs. Remember the blue screen of death? A good programmer has a routine to handle every conceivable error PLUS a default error process in case something slips through that wasn't expected. Microsoft blew it by allowing an error to slip through their error processing.

Under normal conditions, our skin, our lungs, our kidneys, and our liver remove toxins from the body. But what's the default program for when an unknown substances gets into the system. Maybe it can be expelled by p or p. Maybe it can be expelled by the lungs or skin. Or maybe it ends up being absorbed by the body - which is bad.

When the body is not functioning near peak efficiency, the organs can have trouble keeping up with the load. That's one of the reasons fat people tend to stay fat. As they lose weight, toxins get flushed out of the fat into the blood stream. If the body is functioning well, the toxins get flushed. If not, the body starts to become toxic and starts sending craving signals to the brain to get the person to eat foods which will quickly rebuild the fat so the toxins have someplace to go.



> *Seniors with Alzheimerâs to Increase 30 Percent by 2025*, Report Says





> *Pesticides increase risk for Parkinson's disease*: Certain people may be more susceptible more





> *Cancer Rates Expected To Increase 75%* By 2030 more


So are the rates of disease increasing or are they just getting better at counting? The answer is obvious.


----------



## haypoint

Children are maturing faster due to nutrition. Daily sexual stimulation may hasten the process. But it is absolutely not brought on by Bovine growth hormones you believe are in the milk but in reality do not enter the human food chain and if they did are completely non-digestible. 
Sorry you didn't like my analogy, but your sketch of how the human body works to get rid of toxins was awful as well.
The Fluoride Fringe has been spreading myths for 50 years, that I remember, perhaps longer. 
Aflitoxins are not added to modern diets and likely have been in our food for hundreds of years. It is a natural substance.
You can't take a study of a few hundred in this group and a few hundred in another separated by exposure to something and draw any scientific conclusions. The group exposed to more fungicides were likely outside more, also exposing them to more exhaust toxins, sunlight and golf balls. 
As us Baby Boomers continue to out live our parents, expect a cornucopia of late in live maladies to rear their ugly heads as this generation of over fed, under worked, hopped up on vaccinations, old coots fight the grim reaper. 
If we'd all agree to get caught up in a corn picker, get run over by a team of horses, stay away from heart medications, turn off the pacemaker, give up on insulin and simply die at 48 years old, Parkinson's, breast cancer, prostate cancer, Alzheimer's rates would go way down.


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## MoonRiver

haypoint said:


> Children are maturing faster due to nutrition. Daily sexual stimulation may hasten the process. But it is absolutely not brought on by Bovine growth hormones you believe are in the milk but in reality do not enter the human food chain and if they did are completely non-digestible.
> Sorry you didn't like my analogy, but your sketch of how the human body works to get rid of toxins was awful as well.
> The Fluoride Fringe has been spreading myths for 50 years, that I remember, perhaps longer.
> Aflitoxins are not added to modern diets and likely have been in our food for hundreds of years. It is a natural substance.
> You can't take a study of a few hundred in this group and a few hundred in another separated by exposure to something and draw any scientific conclusions. The group exposed to more fungicides were likely outside more, also exposing them to more exhaust toxins, sunlight and golf balls.
> As us Baby Boomers continue to out live our parents, expect a cornucopia of late in live maladies to rear their ugly heads as this generation of over fed, under worked, hopped up on vaccinations, old coots fight the grim reaper.
> If we'd all agree to get caught up in a corn picker, get run over by a team of horses, stay away from heart medications, turn off the pacemaker, give up on insulin and simply die at 48 years old, Parkinson's, breast cancer, prostate cancer, Alzheimer's rates would go way down.


I provided references for every point I made and you provided

nothing.


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## haypoint

MoonRiver said:


> I provided references for every point I made and you provided
> 
> nothing.


Anyone can find any reference to prove anything. What's the point? I pointed out the weaknesses in your references, that should be sufficient.
Are vaccines safe?


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## arabian knight

I read a few of those and had a good laugh at what was said and then started to cry to think others believe in such things.


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## MoonRiver

Molly Mckee said:


> You and moon river might want to look up how true scientific studies are done before you embarrass yourselves any more. It is obvious that you have never worked with them or know how they are done.


Gosh, it looks like I'm right again! Please note the comment near the end about prevailing bias.


> *Why Most Published Research Findings Are False*
> 
> There is increasing concern that most current published research findings are false. The probability that a research claim is true may depend on study power and bias, the number of other studies on the same question, and, importantly, the ratio of true to no relationships among the relationships probed in each scientific field. In this framework, a research finding is less likely to be true when the studies conducted in a field are smaller; when effect sizes are smaller; when there is a greater number and lesser preselection of tested relationships; where there is greater flexibility in designs, definitions, outcomes, and analytical modes; when there is greater financial and other interest and prejudice; and when more teams are involved in a scientific field in chase of statistical significance. *Simulations show that for most study designs and settings, it is more likely for a research claim to be false than true. Moreover, for many current scientific fields, claimed research findings may often be simply accurate measures of the prevailing bias.* In this essay, I discuss the implications of these problems for the conduct and interpretation of research.


http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124


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## Molly Mckee

MoonRiver said:


> Gosh, it looks like I'm right again! Please note the comment near the end about prevailing bias.
> http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124


You might like to read about why one of the founders of that site, that publishes anything, no longer feels it is a good idea. You can find anything you want on the internet, pro or con on anything you want to believe. That does not make it right. 

I think all you want to do is argue. If you cared about learning, you would stop arguing and start learning.
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## MoonRiver

Molly Mckee said:


> You might like to read about why one of the founders of that site, that publishes anything, no longer feels it is a good idea. You can find anything you want on the internet, pro or con on anything you want to believe. That does not make it right.
> 
> I think all you want to do is argue. If you cared about learning, you would stop arguing and start learning.


That article was referenced by a neurosurgeon I know. I'm afraid I will have to take his knowledge over yours. He has been saying, as long as I have known him, that most scientific studies are wrong.


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## arabian knight

What makes him so right, and the rest so wrong? He is just one person from the many that have studied for years this problem. One Guy **** THINKS he is right and it is HIS Opinion all the rest are wrong? WOW just wow


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## Vahomesteaders

Common sense tells you something. A mother is Todd not to drink or eat many things while pregnant it goes into her milk. Cows are no different. They eat gmo food and steroids. I live in dairy country and go to dairy farms daily. They use many Antibotocs and growth hormones and steroids to stimulate milk production. So much that the average milk cow on large dairy only lives about 6 years before it's worn out and dies. Versus a farm dairy cow for a family can go 15 plus years plus with good milk. Those hormones are passed right to your milk and don't burn off with pasterization. That is why we switched to raw milk years ago. I seen how it works.


----------



## MoonRiver

arabian knight said:


> What makes him so right, and the rest so wrong? He is just one person from the many that have studied for years this problem. One Guy **** THINKS he is right and it is HIS Opinion all the rest are wrong? WOW just wow


Him who?

I read an article that was recommended by a doctor I know, and posted a link and quote in this thread from the article. It was a peer reviewed, scholarly article published on plosmed. Even the 2 authors of an article that questioned some of the methodology used in the original article had this to say:



> *We agree with the paper&#8217;s conclusions and recommendations *that many medical research findings are less definitive than readers suspect, that P-values are widely misinterpreted, that bias of various forms is widespread, that multiple approaches are needed to prevent the literature from being systematically biased and the need for more data on the prevalence of false claims.


Donald Rumsfield said "there are the known knowns, the known unknowns, and the unknown unknowns". 

Researchers are very good at the known knowns, not as good at the known unknowns, and even less good at the unknown unknowns. That's why most studies end up showing exactly what the researcher thought they would show. That's just how our brains work - it fills in gaps for us from information previously stored. That's why eye witnesses are often wrong.


----------



## MDKatie

Vahomesteaders said:


> Common sense tells you something. A mother is Todd not to drink or eat many things while pregnant it goes into her milk. Cows are no different. They eat gmo food and steroids. I live in dairy country and go to dairy farms daily. They use many Antibotocs and growth hormones and steroids to stimulate milk production. So much that the average milk cow on large dairy only lives about 6 years before it's worn out and dies. Versus a farm dairy cow for a family can go 15 plus years plus with good milk. Those hormones are passed right to your milk and don't burn off with pasterization. That is why we switched to raw milk years ago. I seen how it works.



ALL milk has hormones, even organic milk and milk from your backyard family cow. There is simply no getting around that...hormones are naturally found in milk. 

Farmers are not allowed to have antibiotic residues in milk, or else they have to pay for the entire tanker full of milk. It's a HUGE no-no, and farmers are very careful to make sure to follow withdrawal times with milk cows because it could cost them the whole farm. 

Most commercial cows don't last 15 years because it's hard on their feet/legs being on concrete or hard surfaces. Also, most people who have family cows don't care if their cow takes an extra cycle or two to breed back, or drops production levels. Dairy farms have to think about the bottom line because it is their livelihood. They cannot wait a cycle or two extra to try to get a cow to settle, and they can't afford cows who don't have great production, because it costs them money. Cows that get culled from dairies can go on to live long, productive lives as family dairy cows.


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## Vahomesteaders

95% of calves from dairy farms are worthless. They are pulled almost emediatly from the mom and get no colostrum. That almost always ruins them for life. And dairy farms seeking to the local market are not under the same National guidelines. It's all based on volume. And the are very few restrictions on the hormones given.


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## MDKatie

Vahomesteaders said:


> 95% of calves from dairy farms are worthless. They are pulled almost emediatly from the mom and get no colostrum. That almost always ruins them for life. And dairy farms seeking to the local market are not under the same National guidelines. It's all based on volume. And the are very few restrictions on the hormones given.


That's just simply not true. Every single dairy farm I've worked on has fed colostrum to ALL calves, even bull calves they send to auction. And even heifer calves pulled from their moms at birth can still be excellent mothers if sold to a farm where they're allowed to raise their calves. 

Like I said before, ALL milk has hormones in it! *Most* dairy farms to not treat their cows with rBST.


----------



## haypoint

Nearly all dairies quit BGH years ago, just didn't do enough to justify the costs. 
Even the 6,000 cow dairies give colostrum to their calves. They have always had value, more so lately.


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## Vahomesteaders

They sure don't here in va. They have an auction every week selling few day old calves on the bottle from the dairy farms. My neighbor bought several of them and at two years old only weigh 500lbs and won't take a breed. Always sickly looking. All the others fat and plump. It's the same sorry all over here. Infact the steers bring double what the heifers do. Usually the heifers bring 40-60 dollars a head where steers will go 120 or so. Everyone knows they generally won't produce well.


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## Molly Mckee

Vahomesteaders said:


> 95% of calves from dairy farms are worthless. They are pulled almost emediatly from the mom and get no colostrum. That almost always ruins them for life. And dairy farms seeking to the local market are not under the same National guidelines. It's all based on volume. And the are very few restrictions on the hormones given.


I don't know where you got your information (MoonRiver?) but it is wrong on so many levels. If 95% of the caves were worthless we would not be drinking milk from cows or eating meat. Cattle would be on the endangered species list in short order. 

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Molly Mckee said:


> I don't know where you got your information (MoonRiver?) but it is wrong on so many levels. If 95% of the caves were worthless we would not be drinking milk from cows or eating meat. Cattle would be on the endangered species list in short order.
> 
> http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


There are far more cattle raised for beef on large free range ranches than there are crammed into dairy barns. And far more raised on small farms for beef than crammed into dairy barns. We got 50 head that have sustained themselves fir over 20 years. We do artificial insemination for best breed for our uses such as dairy and beef.


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## arabian knight

Oh and a nice side step that was, going from DAILY cattle that don't live over 6 years to now BEEF cattle that are so poorly raised they also live short lives. Well SURE BEEF cattle live short lives that is why we have BEEF in the Stores as we speak.
Nobody in the BEEF industry would be caught dead keeping their cattle till they are 20 years old, and then selling to market. 
And a daily operation not treating and feeding their calves in a timely manner is also a untruth.

[YOUTUBE]?v=JJRy82i8e5Q[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## watcher

MoonRiver said:


> The rate has increased since 2000. You tell me why.
> 
> 
> And it may be as many as 1 in 50 today. All I can think is somebody must be making a lot of money off autism for the rate to be increasing that quickly.


As I said more people are being diagnosed with it. Check the number of kids who now have been diagnosed as ADHD vs the number in 2000. I'm willing to bet you'll find we have a LOT more kids on drugs for it now then then. Does that mean there's an epidemic of it? Or maybe vaccines are cause that as well? Or could it be the fact that today any 6 y.o. kid who can't sit quietly behind a desk for 2 straight hours is now said to be ADHD.


----------



## watcher

Vahomesteaders said:


> All the proof we need is our own experience. In the late 80s and early 90s, I went to a school of 1200 kids. I knew most everybody. I recall not one with autism symptoms. We had a few blind and retarded children but not one with these symptoms. That same school today with only 800 students has two entire classes devoted to just autism with about 20 kids per class. No down syndrome or other disabilities in those classes. Just autistic children. Explain that.


You are telling me you don't have classes for the 'slow' kids? Most of them today would probably be listed as autistic.


----------



## where I want to

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/dsm5-in-distress/201006/psychiatric-fads-and-overdiagnosis

OK back again. There are fads in diagnosing - I remember a point at which "personality disorder" became as common as pigeons in the city. 

The truth is the DSM is not a therapy manual but a billing manual. It's gospel nature among mental health and drug providers is because it is the way insurance providers agree to pay for mental health treatments and drugs. Not in DISM, don't get paid. And the goal of the mental health industry is to find a coding for every issue that a member of the public wants to have treated that allows them to get paid for their work.

It is strange that the hunger to accept the government and drug companies's stats about an official expansion of the diagnosis of autism as proof of the the evil of "Big Pharma" and "Big Government" itself is never questioned. Where do you think that these stats on increased autism levels come from?

It's like the fashion industry telling everyone that last years clothes are now "dated" and need to be replaced. Last years clothes still keep a person warm but it is more profitable to create demand by changing the style. Frankly, if a drug has been developed, a code will also be developed to insure it is covered in the DSM.

So what happens? There is a problem and to get paid for treating that problem, a provider needs to have an acceptable code. Every DSM revision is either the result of pressure by the provider to get paid and therefore expand the definition or the insurance company objecting to money being obtained by the providers getting very creative about fitting people into a diagnosis. And the number of times the code for autism is checked, it is used in compliling the stats.

People like a diagnosis. It's like saying "I felt so good when they found out what I had." It might mean a better treatment but it frequently means no treatment change at all- just a sense of justification that "see I really did have a problem after all."

It doesn't mean there is no problem but what to call the problem, and it's acceptable treatment, changes.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

arabian knight said:


> Oh and a nice side step that was, going from DAILY cattle that don't live over 6 years to now BEEF cattle that are so poorly raised they also live short lives. Well SURE BEEF cattle live short lives that is why we have BEEF in the Stores as we speak.
> Nobody in the BEEF industry would be caught dead keeping their cattle till they are 20 years old, and then selling to market.
> And a daily operation not treating and feeding their calves in a timely manner is also a untruth.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]?v=JJRy82i8e5Q[/YOUTUBE]


You must have been under the Friday night influence if you took that away from that post.lol That was a post to show why there will never be a cattle shortage. Abs no its not an untruth. Again go to harrisonburg va livestock exchange on a Friday night and you will see calves that can't hardly walk yet come through. You can pick one up for a little of nothing. And they all come from the dairy farms.


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## Vahomesteaders

watcher said:


> You are telling me you don't have classes for the 'slow' kids? Most of them today would probably be listed as autistic.


Not one that I can remember. We had a couple that were down syndrome and one that had cerebral palsy. But I don't recall one kid that acted like my nephew who is autistic. Our even acted slow. We had a special needs class and it had less than 7 kids in it and I knew them all because I helped with the class. Would help then get lunch, brush their teeth etc..


----------



## where I want to

Vahomesteaders said:


> Not one that I can remember. We had a couple that were down syndrome and one that had cerebral palsy. But I don't recall one kid that acted like my nephew who is autistic. Our even acted slow. We had a special needs class and it had less than 7 kids in it and I knew them all because I helped with the class. Would help then get lunch, brush their teeth etc..


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/asylums/special/excerpt.html

There was a massive "deinstitutionalization" starting in the mid-1960s following several court cases. But this people did not go away. This fall in large hospital population, where they were pretty much hidden, was matched with the rise in group homes and paying parent's to maintain children at home. Kids used to be sent away but people don't do that anymore. Also the rise in homelessness (another changing definition there) is part of the closing of mental hospitals. 
I suspect the percentage of mental illness is pretty much the same throughout history but where they are located has changed. Things look worse because mental illness is not so tucked away.


----------



## sammyd

Vahomesteaders said:


> They sure don't here in va. They have an auction every week selling few day old calves on the bottle from the dairy farms. My neighbor bought several of them and at two years old only weigh 500lbs and won't take a breed. Always sickly looking. All the others fat and plump. It's the same sorry all over here. Infact the steers bring double what the heifers do. Usually the heifers bring 40-60 dollars a head where steers will go 120 or so. Everyone knows they generally won't produce well.


None of that has anything to do with getting colostrum
If an animal only weighed 500 pounds at 2 years I would suspect the person feeding the animal not the handling as a calf. 
Had a neighbor do the exact same thing, we both bought from a local farmer the same day. We sold our steers 18 months later. Mine were twice the size and far sleeker. I got 78 cent a pound and he got 32. Nothing to do with getting colostrum or not. 
Steers will always bring more than heifers if folks are looking to make beef.
Heifers won't breed if free martins which is why they would be sold as calves and why the price is generally lower...


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## Vahomesteaders

sammyd said:


> None of that has anything to do with getting colostrum
> If an animal only weighed 500 pounds at 2 years I would suspect the person feeding the animal not the handling as a calf.
> Had a neighbor do the exact same thing, we both bought from a local farmer the same day. We sold our steers 18 months later. Mine were twice the size and far sleeker. I got 78 cent a pound and he got 32. Nothing to do with getting colostrum or not.
> Steers will always bring more than heifers if folks are looking to make beef.
> Heifers won't breed if free martins which is why they would be sold as calves and why the price is generally lower...


Maybe where you are but here its the cattle. He had 45 head. 7 he bought from the auction at no more then 2 days old. His kids bottle feed them. They all turned out this way. Most of the time no colostrum is a death sentence. They have no immune systems at birth. Scours is almost guaranteed which usually does them in. I've worked with cattle all my life. I live in dairy country in the highest dairy County in the state of va and second on East coast. I see the inner workings everyday. They get the calf of the cow asap and ship them straight to the auction. Maybe letting it stay with the mother an hour of that. If they are born the same day as the auction they certainly won't get any. Sine may get a day at most which would be better than nothing. But a good healthy calf should have at least a week.


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## sammyd

the calf can't absorb any of the anti bodies after 24 hours. A week of colostrum is unnecessary for disease prevention.
If they make it 3 weeks chances are they will make it. Having 500 pound animals at 2 years is bad management period. You may get delayed puberty or reduced milk production from lack of colostrum but animals that far underweight are not explainable by that at all.


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## Vahomesteaders

sammyd said:


> the calf can't absorb any of the anti bodies after 24 hours. A week of colostrum is unnecessary for disease prevention.
> If they make it 3 weeks chances are they will make it. Having 500 pound animals at 2 years is bad management period. You may get delayed puberty or reduced milk production from lack of colostrum but animals that far underweight are not explainable by that at all.


When calves born at the same time as the calves that were bought and fed the same thing and graze together everyday in the same fields yet under weigh them by 1000lbs, it's the calves not the management.


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## bamabear44

I have been really debating this, but decided to get the vaccine, my granddaughter works in the nursing homes. she is adamant about me getting one, I am 67. and have diabetes and heart decease. I have it scheduled for April 28 if I cannot get it sooner, Her friends sister , only 20 got put in the hospital yesterday with it, had trouble breathing, she has type 1 diabetes. sad, I hope she heals....


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## doohap

haley1 said:


> The government says they are completely safe, you can trust them


LOL!!


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