# dnr going after bakers green acres again!



## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

I seen a video from Mark posted last week. The dnr are starting to go after him again. 
Sit rep: http://youtu.be/0Y6z1PMOkKI


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

myheaven said:


> I seen a video from Mark posted last week. The dnr are starting to go after him again.
> Sit rep: http://youtu.be/0Y6z1PMOkKI


He has caused his family and himself a lot of problems. Time for him to get rid of the wild hogs. He could be making good money raising good farm pork. 

He received a letter telling him he could be fined 1000 dollars for raising wild hogs. So what. That is what the law is. No wild hogs. He admits he has wild hogs. Well he could very well loose this case and really be out some more money that his supporters may not pay him this time around.


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## njenner (Jul 15, 2013)

I don't see why it is such huge problem for him raise farm hogs as opposed to wild ones. I know people here in Cali that have their property torn to shreds by wild hogs.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

njenner said:


> I don't see why it is such huge problem for him raise farm hogs as opposed to wild ones. I know people here in Cali that have their property torn to shreds by wild hogs.


The government is doing what most pig farmers want. Get rid of the pest. A few of us farmers got together and just about shot or trapped and got rid of the wild pigs in my valley. Still a few around but they are no real danger at present. State of Michigan along with a lot of other states is trying to take care of the Russian boar and other hog problems. 

.http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12145_55230---,00.html


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## Zimobog (Aug 31, 2013)

I haven't watched every single Baker's Green Acres video, but my understanding is he raises Mangalista hogs not "wild" hogs. In one video I watched regarding his case, the DNR was concerned with "feral" hogs, not wild hogs. 

From what I have seen of the videos, DNR is misapplying a very foggy standard to his hogs.

"Feral" hog is not a breed it is a condition of human care, confinement, and management.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I was watching one of his other videos, and saw the pigs in the background... They didn't look very wild to me... Yep.. they had straight tails, but pot belly pigs have those too... and if you breed a pot belly with a regular pig, you could still get straight tails... 

I'm understanding this is how the DNR is deciding it is a wild pig?

Isn't a ferel pig just a wild pig? If a guy had a couple pigs get loose and didn't catch them, and they had pigs in the wild, wouldn't that make those new piglets ferel? They could even have curly tails.. 

I don't know.. I don't know this guy's history, but it seems the DNR is pushing him around for not a lotta reason.. As long is he is being a responsible farmer, what's the issue? The fact the DNR dropped the case right before it was about to go to court, where they would have had to prove their case, really makes you feel they are pushing the boundaries and know they'd lose.. .But then to come back at him again AFTER they dropped the case.. what a crock.. 

Starting to make me think I need to hide my pigs.. 

Here's that video.. 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Os5X8hHjQ[/ame]


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## SouthGAMan (May 5, 2014)

gerold said:


> He has caused his family and himself a lot of problems. Time for him to get rid of the wild hogs. He could be making good money raising good farm pork.
> 
> He received a letter telling him he could be fined 1000 dollars for raising wild hogs. So what. That is what the law is. No wild hogs. He admits he has wild hogs. Well he could very well loose this case and really be out some more money that his supporters may not pay him this time around.


No offense but the DNR was concerned with FERAL hogs....feral hogs are hogs that basically no one has control over. Hogs inside a fence and being raised are not 'feral' strictly just by the definition. 

I don't know every single minute detail of this issue but I do definitely know that if the government can't even come up with EXACT criteria of their definition then it is a terrible law. Their original definition of straight versus curly in my book would had made no sense either because I have definitely seen feral hogs in the woods with curly tails and some with straight tails. At the very least they need a strict and well defined definition. Until they have that then any non-corrupt judge that I know would quickly throw it out.


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## Zimobog (Aug 31, 2013)

I'm just a *******, but "wild" and "feral" are different to me.

A "wild" hog is one thing (although hybridization occurs between feral hogs and "wild" hogs). "Wild" hogs are sometimes called European, Razorback, or Russian hogs. I don't know if I'd call those "wild" as they were an introduced ie non-native species. 

A "feral" hog is any hog that has been introduced to the wild from human management.

"Feral" hogs, as far as I have seen, are not a separate species of hog. Cattle, horses, goats, sheep, cats, dogs or whatever can be "feral" without regards to it's genetics. The only way to change a feral hog to a farm hog is to confine it. 

Human control and management makes a hog feral or not. If someone is feeding, raising, breeding, and butchering hogs there is no way they are feral or wild.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

To me, wild and feral are the same thing.. wild is not a breed, as is neither feral... They live in the wild... They don't want any human interaction..


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## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

Dictionary.com:
Wild: living in a state of nature; not tamed or domesticated
Feral: existing in a natural state, as animals or plants; not domesticated or cultivated; 
wild.
Appears to me they are defined the same way.


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## njenner (Jul 15, 2013)

I suspect there is more to this story than as represented in the video. For one thing, if he represented the facts and legal procedure accurately, he would likely have a 1983 claim (civil rights violation). In that event, it also means that the government would be required to reimburse him for ALL of his attorney's fees and costs (42 U.S.C., sec. 1988) upon dismissal of their action. Additionally, it like would establish a malicious prosecution claim also entitling him to recover attorney's fees. This would be notwithstanding the state law as the civil rights action is based upon federal law.


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## Dstrnad (Aug 9, 2014)

gerold said:


> He has caused his family and himself a lot of problems. Time for him to get rid of the wild hogs. He could be making good money raising good farm pork.
> 
> He received a letter telling him he could be fined 1000 dollars for raising wild hogs. So what. That is what the law is. No wild hogs. He admits he has wild hogs. Well he could very well loose this case and really be out some more money that his supporters may not pay him this time around.


So you consider mangalista wild hogs? What other breeds do you consider wild?


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## Dstrnad (Aug 9, 2014)

No disrespect but where are you getting your info? He was fined $700,000 not $1000. He also has not had any Russian boar for some time. He raises mangalista. Most of this was about principal. They probably would have never went after him if he had just kept quiet. The fact is that the way the law was written all pigs were illegal except for confinement operations. Now the reality is that they were probably just going to go after Russian boar but that is not how the law was written. It made every pasture pig grower illegal, if they wanted to come after you. I just don't see how anyone that raises pigs outdoors would be OK with technical being illegal but not worry because your not the one they are after. Sheeply think that way not Americans.


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## woodsman14 (Oct 6, 2014)

According to Michigan law; Any pig outside of a fenced perimeter for more than two days is considered feral and may be shot or otherwise killed on site without a permit from the government. But they still need landowner permission.

In my county; Any livestock that is loose shall be fined $155.00. That may be per head per day?


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## Dstrnad (Aug 9, 2014)

woodsman14 said:


> According to Michigan law; Any pig outside of a fenced perimeter for more than two days is considered feral and may be shot or otherwise killed on site without a permit from the government. But they still need landowner permission.
> 
> In my county; Any livestock that is loose shall be fined $155.00. That may be per head per day?


Just to be clear his pigs are and always have been fenced in. We are not talking about free ranging pigs without control, we are talking about fenced in pastured pigs.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

Dstrnad said:


> So you consider mangalista wild hogs? What other breeds do you consider wild?


He had Russia boar hogs before when this all started. That was why they first decided to check him out.

Some people were raising wild Russian boars and selling them to hunting clubs and were turned loose for hunters to hunts. Some escaped and some were released on government property.

You said Mangalista not me.


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

the dnr dropped the case at the last second so they don't have to pay him back what he spent on legal fees. I just don't get why his breed of pigs he raises in confinment and has for many years is such an issue. they are not wild or distroying anything. No habitats were harmed in the confinment rearing of his hogs. The dnr made up some vague discription of an imaginary pig. they could use that same discription on my modern day hogs.

gerold I don't see how he caused himself this greif. cause he didn't roll over and let them kill his pigs over some new law thew pulled out of their grits. Gerold what if your next? What if they come after your animals? Will you just roll over and give up?


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

Dstrnad said:


> No disrespect but where are you getting your info? He was fined $700,000 not $1000. He also has not had any Russian boar for some time. He raises mangalista. Most of this was about principal. They probably would have never went after him if he had just kept quiet. The fact is that the way the law was written all pigs were illegal except for confinement operations. Now the reality is that they were probably just going to go after Russian boar but that is not how the law was written. It made every pasture pig grower illegal, if they wanted to come after you. I just don't see how anyone that raises pigs outdoors would be OK with technical being illegal but not worry because your not the one they are after. Sheeply think that way not Americans.


I got my info. from a letter he quoted from a video he posted. That stated about the $1000 fine now for illegal hogs. Not talking about the fine he receive before. Looks like he has decided not to fight about the latest letter he has received from the government. 

I think he has decided not to raise the Russia hogs any longer. That is what he was asked to do before all the legal action started.


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

Gerold if I remember correctly he got rid of the boar a while ago. but some of his pigs are sill like 1/32 russian. His pigs are not wild. they are domesticated with a heritage back round.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

myheaven said:


> the dnr dropped the case at the last second so they don't have to pay him back what he spent on legal fees. I just don't get why his breed of pigs he raises in confinment and has for many years is such an issue. they are not wild or distroying anything. No habitats were harmed in the confinment rearing of his hogs. The dnr made up some vague discription of an imaginary pig. they could use that same discription on my modern day hogs.
> 
> gerold I don't see how he caused himself this greif. cause he didn't roll over and let them kill his pigs over some new law thew pulled out of their grits. Gerold what if your next? What if they come after your animals? Will you just roll over and give up?


If the government decide my Yorks and blue butts and Herefords are illegal they will have to shut down all the pig factories in the U.S.A. This will not happen but if the government did do that , i would butcher all my hogs and feed them to my dogs.

P.S. I do not like foul mouth talk like you posted in your reply. I will not ans. any more post of yours if you continue with that kind of reply.. Sure post what replies to me you wish without the inappropriate disrespectful laguage about the DNR.


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## Dstrnad (Aug 9, 2014)

gerold said:


> He had Russia boar hogs before when this all started. That was why they first decided to check him out.
> 
> Some people were raising wild Russian boars and selling them to hunting clubs and were turned loose for hunters to hunts. Some escaped and some were released on government property.
> 
> You said Mangalista not me.


They tried to apply the fine to ALL of his pigs not just the Russian boar which he no longer had. The DNR did not decide to check him out. When he heard about the law he asked for clarification, they would not clarify, under their description all pigs were illegal except in factory farm settings so he sued them. This is not as much about the Russian Boar as it is about the right to farm and the legal process that must be followed in a free society. No one wants Russian boar running around, but the DNR decided to word the law so that all pigs were illegal and it was their discretion to decide when to enforce it and upon who. Gerold under the law even your pigs would be illegal, now your not the target so they probably would never bother you, but that is not the point, which is why he did what he did. They tried to bring the smack down for opposing their rule when he was not even the one they were after.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

Dstrnad said:


> They tried to apply the fine to ALL of his pigs not just the Russian boar which he no longer had. The DNR did not decide to check him out. When he heard about the law he asked for clarification, they would not clarify, under their description all pigs were illegal except in factory farm settings so he sued them. This is not as much about the Russian Boar as it is about the right to farm and the legal process that must be followed in a free society. No one wants Russian boar running around, but the DNR decided to word the law so that all pigs were illegal and it was their discretion to decide when to enforce it and upon who. Gerold under the law even your pigs would be illegal, now your not the target so they probably would never bother you, but that is not the point, which is why he did what he did. They tried to bring the smack down for opposing their rule when he was not even the one they were after.


I think he has decided not to fight this issue any longer for now. He should be ok with the hogs he has now. Of course if they try to steamroll him again he may file a lawsuit on the DNR. He may still file a lawsuit to recover all the problems they have caused him. I am sure he could fine a lawyer from another state to take his case if he wants to file for damages. In a case like that if the state got some wrong advise and did do wrong they would try to settle out of court if he would accept that.


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## myheaven (Apr 14, 2006)

gerold said:


> If the government decide my Yorks and blue butts and Herefords are illegal they will have to shut down all the pig factories in the U.S.A. This will not happen but if the government did do that , i would butcher all my hogs and feed them to my dogs.
> 
> P.S. I do not like foul mouth talk like you posted in your reply. I will not ans. any more post of yours if you continue with that kind of reply.. Sure post what replies to me you wish without the inappropriate disrespectful laguage about the DNR.


lol! OK I'll use the unslang term "buttocks". 
I know the Michigan dnr. I lived there for 23 years. they are not your friend.
I know truth hurts and some can't take the cold hard truth. dnr bad bad bad


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

myheaven said:


> lol! OK I'll use the unslang term "buttocks".
> I know the Michigan dnr. I lived there for 23 years. they are not your friend.
> I know truth hurts and some can't take the cold hard truth. dnr bad bad bad


Thanks. Buttocks is much better. LOL.

Lots of government agents try to be the big cheese. I understand that and have had to deal with them before myself.
I do try to stay away from any government department if i can get the job done myself.


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## Dstrnad (Aug 9, 2014)

I agree they probably will not bother him or any of us as we are not the targets. Well he is a target by going against them, but for the most part they were after the game ranch guys. However nothing has changed the DNR still will not clarify so technically we could be guilty of a felony. Personally I think they could not figure out how to make just Russian boar and comparable illegal so they wrote it so it covered everything. That or an intern wrote it and no one proof read it for content. Also there is only one species of pig so a breeder could just wild up a heritage hog over several generations and end up with something that the ranch guys would hunt but was technically legal. I also do not believe that wild hogs will ever be a true issue in Michigan. We have pockets of them and my father even killed one several years ago. In Michigan our winters will keep them at bay. Not because of the snow but feed vs cover in winter, along with the ultimate 2 legged predator.


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## njenner (Jul 15, 2013)

If the government dismissed the case right before trial (which I doubt) it would open it up to malicious prosecution/discriminatory enforcement proceedings under federal law. I know MANY lawyers that would love to represent him on a contingency if the facts he represented are true. That is why I do not believe the representations he makes are accurate. Attorney's fees are awarded in both types of actions. (sorry; but yes I have to finally admit I AM a lawyer.)


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## Dstrnad (Aug 9, 2014)

He sued them they never charged him with anything. They counter sued for the fines without actually charging him with anything. Last minute the DNR said his pigs were legal therefore he could not sue the gov because he did not have any cause or such.


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## njenner (Jul 15, 2013)

So I researched the court case and as suspected; the government did not dismiss the case prior to trial. Rather, the *judge* dismissed the case finding that Green Acres was no longer in violation because he did not have a wild boar and was therefore in compliance with the law. I understand both sides of this but it is important to get the true facts before jumping on the anti-government band wagon. Yes, there are badge heavy government inspectors and the like; but in my experience, if you are reasonable, most of them are just trying to do their job and they are reasonable as well. Mark totally misrepresented the legal proceedings. This reminds me of the raw milk debate. The proponents fail to cite the 10-20 children across the country that remain on dialysis (for life) as a result of their parents belief that raw milk is a cure all. Louise Pasteur saved millions of lives by his pasteurization processes that he propounded. Science says raw milk is dangerous. So I trust facts and science.......


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## Dstrnad (Aug 9, 2014)

njenner said:


> So I researched the court case and as suspected; the government did not dismiss the case prior to trial. Rather, the *judge* dismissed the case finding that Green Acres was no longer in violation because he did not have a wild boar and was therefore in compliance with the law. I understand both sides of this but it is important to get the true facts before jumping on the anti-government band wagon. Yes, there are badge heavy government inspectors and the like; but in my experience, if you are reasonable, most of them are just trying to do their job and they are reasonable as well. Mark totally misrepresented the legal proceedings. This reminds me of the raw milk debate. The proponents fail to cite the 10-20 children across the country that remain on dialysis (for life) as a result of their parents belief that raw milk is a cure all. Louise Pasteur saved millions of lives by his pasteurization processes that he propounded. Science says raw milk is dangerous. So I trust facts and science.......


That is a half truth!
Yes the judge dismissed the case on the request from the DNR after they dropped their counter suit and said Mark Bakers pigs are legal even any wild boar that he may have. Therefore the judge had to dismiss it. Here is the DNR lawyer.


[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNgb05jIqIs[/ame]


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

What is this law that makes raising pigs illegal unless it's in a pig mill kinda operation?

I've never heard anything like that before... Can someone post the code concerning it?

Is this in just the state the Bakers are in, or is this a nation wide deal?


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## Dstrnad (Aug 9, 2014)

It is a state thing. In Michigan wild boars, old world swine, hybrids, etc. Are illegal under Michigan's invasive species order. In order to identify them because there is only one species of swine the state issued a declatory ruling that described every pig on the planet, it litterally said straight tails or curly. Even had a sentence that said other features not currently known. They put a clause that exempts factory farms. This part was eventually thrown out. The original iso remains so the delema still exists as to what is an old world swine. Are mangalsta old world? What about Tamworth or others? Who gets to decide? Is it then legal for hunting ranches to hunt other heritage breeds?


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Interesting.. thanks for sharing that... I wasn't sure what was being said.. 

Sure does sound like the government is stepping all over people just to protect the large corporate farms... 

Glad I don't live in MI... my pigs got straight tails with tufts of hair on the ends, will hold them straight up, and have a ridge of hair like a razor back... I'm sure I'd be in court there too..


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Here the state deemed every hog on the ground as feral. They cant be trasnsported on the highway unless they have a metal tag or tatoo in their ear. That tag has a farm number on it. Without that ID number the fine is 5000 bucks.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

simi-steading said:


> What is this law that makes raising pigs illegal unless it's in a pig mill kinda operation?
> 
> I've never heard anything like that before... Can someone post the code concerning it?
> 
> Is this in just the state the Bakers are in, or is this a nation wide deal?


You will have to look up the laws in your own state. The law is different in just about each state. A real mess. Then you got the Feds to cope with.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

This thread did get me looking... Best I can tell, so long as you keep your animals penned and out of the water ways, roads and other people's property, there's not much to worry about..


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

simi-steading said:


> What is this law that makes raising pigs illegal unless it's in a pig mill kinda operation? ... Is this in just the state the Bakers are in, or is this a nation wide deal?


This is a Michigan rule that was put through without good science. They used very poor definitions of what constitutes a feral pig. There are claims that the law was pushed through to protect factory farming. Maybe, maybe not. Could just be stupidity on the part of the rule makers. Might be greed though. Hard to tell. Either way it's bad regulations.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I seriously doubt it was done because the law makers were too dumb to understand... They have lobbyist that write the rules for them.. politician just jam the bills through the legislature to help out their lobbyist friends.

It;s nothing but greed any more.....


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

simi-steading said:


> This thread did get me looking... Best I can tell, so long as you keep your animals penned and out of the water ways, roads and other people's property, there's not much to worry about..


That true for just about any live stock a farmer has. Watch your stock and keep them on your own property and know your state requirements for transporting livestock. Good idea to check the laws at least once a year because they are updated and changed.


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## njenner (Jul 15, 2013)

Thanks for posting the video - that explains a lot. The DNR attorney looks like an idiot! I understand the issue is really mootness in that there was no longer a triable issue of fact. The judge had to follow the rule of law. I do question whether Baker has a claim for discriminatory enforcement under federal law, however, especially if they target him again and again. Sounds to me like CAFO pig farmers got their way with this regulation. Hard to comprehend why such a rule would have been adopted when local farmers are pretty good shots and can probably handle any wild/feral hog problem.


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## SouthGAMan (May 5, 2014)

njenner said:


> Thanks for posting the video - that explains a lot. The DNR attorney looks like an idiot! I understand the issue is really mootness in that there was no longer a triable issue of fact. The judge had to follow the rule of law. I do question whether Baker has a claim for discriminatory enforcement under federal law, however, especially if they target him again and again. Sounds to me like CAFO pig farmers got their way with this regulation. Hard to comprehend why such a rule would have been adopted when local farmers are pretty good shots and can probably handle any wild/feral hog problem.


You haven't ever been around a feral hog problem have you? They are definitely a different animal all together and once they are even semi-established they are almost impossible to get rid of. 

Here is a video from the Texas Parks and Wildlife (and I don't agree that poison is a good alternative although they only talk briefly about that option):
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GigpxLNbgeg[/ame]

Here is another video discussing some of the issues (this one by Jager Pro)

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS4_YaVOr2o[/ame]

To me one of the most telling videos is this one from Jager Pro showing the differences in effectiveness in panel selection in traps...Not just anything will work or be effective.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tvyq4RM3IpQ&index=6&list=PL4721038A3D35B28A[/ame]

I have personally witnessed over 15 feral hogs in one group in the woods. The animals do not act at all like tame hogs. Much more aggressive for sure.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

simi-steading said:


> I seriously doubt it was done because the law makers were too dumb to understand... They have lobbyist that write the rules for them.. politician just jam the bills through the legislature to help out their lobbyist friends. It;s nothing but greed any more.....


*grin* Aye, but I was offering the benefit of the doubt...


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

If the government really wanted to get rid of feral hogs they could quite easily. It is as simple as making them open season year round and offering a bounty of $100 per pair of ears. Our beloved fearless leaders have had great success in the past driving peoples and species into extinction using this method. It's old hat. The fact that they don't do this is the proof that they aren't really interested in solving the problem.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Agreed.. Here in WV, the DNR released hogs back in the 70's... If you want to shoot any wild ones, there's a season for that... 

Open season on coyotes though.. go figure..


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## njenner (Jul 15, 2013)

Can you even imagine the number of hunters that would flock to the woods for a $100 bounty?!!!! I'd probably stay home  but I agree with Walter - that would do the trick and probably cost less than all the trapping/poisoning they are trying to come up with.


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## Zimobog (Aug 31, 2013)

Bounties worked on wolves and mountain lions!
Back in the day farmers and ranchers ponied up the cash for bounties cause it was their stock at risk.

Average city person ain't going to want their taxes going to shoot hogs.

In Alaska we don't have any such thing as wild hogs but there is no closed season on deleterious, exotic, and invasive species... And coyotes lol


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Heck.. I'd sit in a field all day for open season on hogs if we had them here... I don't need a bounty to get me to eat free pig..


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## woodsman14 (Oct 6, 2014)

gerold said:


> He had Russia boar hogs before when this all started. That was why they first decided to check him out.
> 
> Some people were raising wild Russian boars and selling them to hunting clubs and were turned loose for hunters to hunts. Some escaped and some were released on government property.
> 
> You said Mangalista not me.


I agree with gerold. There WAS a farm raising Russian or European pig stock less than 5 miles from me. They were basically tame, sold them for hunts. Real sporting eh? :umno:


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

The hogs got pretty bad in Fl. 15 years ago. The hogs were in groups of 15-30. At that time i work for the State of Fl. The Mexican workers that worked in the citrus groves stated shooting them and got the numbers down quite a bit. The hogs lived in the glades between the big citrus groves. At night they would go into the citrus groves and feed on the citrus that would be on the ground. Grover owners started setting traps for them and got rid of a lot of them.
At that time we were told to shoot any we happen to see. I seen a lot but was not to interest in shooting them. One morning while having coffee in a local store out where the groves were an old pickup truck came in the back of the store and unloaded a couple big black wild hogs that were already skinned and gutted. The store also sold fresh pork and pork lunches. We had coffee at this shop about 2 x a week. Our state truck was clearly marked with the state of fl. emblem on both sides of the truck. This didn.t seem to bother anyone bring in the pigs or the store owner.
My partner and my self looked at each other and just about fell over.  My partner said you going to call it in or do you want me to call it in. I let him take care of it. 
To bad the place had good coffee. The store was shut down the same day and the owner did go to prison for a few different charges.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Too bad.


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## Zimobog (Aug 31, 2013)

gerold said:


> The hogs got pretty bad in Fl. 15 years ago. The hogs were in groups of 15-30. At that time i work for the State of Fl. The Mexican workers that worked in the citrus groves stated shooting them and got the numbers down quite a bit. The hogs lived in the glades between the big citrus groves. At night they would go into the citrus groves and feed on the citrus that would be on the ground. Grover owners started setting traps for them and got rid of a lot of them.
> At that time we were told to shoot any we happen to see. I seen a lot but was not to interest in shooting them. One morning while having coffee in a local store out where the groves were an old pickup truck came in the back of the store and unloaded a couple big black wild hogs that were already skinned and gutted. The store also sold fresh pork and pork lunches. We had coffee at this shop about 2 x a week. Our state truck was clearly marked with the state of fl. emblem on both sides of the truck. This didn.t seem to bother anyone bring in the pigs or the store owner.
> My partner and my self looked at each other and just about fell over.  My partner said you going to call it in or do you want me to call it in. I let him take care of it.
> To bad the place had good coffee. The store was shut down the same day and the owner did go to prison for a few different charges.


And here's why I left Florida :facepalm:.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

gerold said:


> unloaded a couple big black wild hogs that were already skinned and gutted.


I thought they were all pink/white after the skin came off...


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

simi-steading said:


> I thought they were all pink/white after the skin came off...


They are . However the head and feet were not skinned. Wild hogs in Fl. are black for the most part a few are brown. Lots of Eurasian boars still in Fl. along with others that are mixed with the Eurasian. The mixed breeds get well over 500 lbs.

Here in Missouri killing wild boar is legal year round. Shoot on sight. 
No hunting permit required. Open season on wild boar has really help control this problem.

http://mdc.mo.gov/your-property/problem-plants-and-animals/invasive-animals/feral-hog-control

Rules for the killing of wild boar above link.

In the state of W.V. there is not much of a wild hog problem. Due to many reasons. One is the cutting of a lot of Oak tree so not many acorns. Mining has also cause a decrease in Wild hog in W.V.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I knew.. I was just giving ya a hard time... Call it boredom


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## Dstrnad (Aug 9, 2014)

Had to chuckle on this comment, what is funny is that half the people think you left because of places serving wild pork. The other half because he went to jail over it. Each in disbelief that anyone would think different. Lol


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## Zimobog (Aug 31, 2013)

Dstrnad said:


> Had to chuckle on this comment, what is funny is that half the people think you left because of places serving wild pork. The other half because he went to jail over it. Each in disbelief that anyone would think different. Lol


Heck this isn't the politics section: I left Florida cause you can't get good coffee no more.:drum:


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

Dstrnad said:


> Had to chuckle on this comment, what is funny is that half the people think you left because of places serving wild pork. The other half because he went to jail over it. Each in disbelief that anyone would think different. Lol


Fl. is a good place to hunt wild boar. Lots of them there. You can hunt wild boar on private property with the owners permission. A lot of grove owners will be glad if you can get rid of a few boar. 
However don't hunt with a gun or bow without the permission of the property owner. In Fl. you can be fined 5K and/or get up to 5 years in prison without the property owners permission to hunt there.


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## Philosaw (Mar 3, 2014)

Where I live in Northern California people hunt, eat, trap, raise and cross breed, feral hogs with domestic. I see them as another resource. As for aggressiveness, if one were to trap a domestic hog and freak it out, it too would be a dangerous animal. In my lifetime there were still people who raised pigs on there homesteads without fencing, calling them in at night to feed and bed. So it's not too surprising that some escaped and went feral, breeding like crazy. The big issue in Michigan was on what a feral hog is. Since there are no "wild" hog in the U.S., they had to come up with a definition, which they had trouble doing, because it's impossible! I just finished raising a feral boar, which I bred to a Mangalitsa sow, that you couldn't have seen the difference between it and a very personable Tamworth except for his ability to jump a 3 foot fence.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

The Wild hogs that live in the US are a mixture of wild hogs brought here hundreds of years ago and escaped farm pigs with a sprinkling of Eurasian/Russian for good measure. Michigan didn't have any, until people like Baker brought them to Michigan to breed and sell for sport. But they don't respect fences and began destroying other people's property. Lawyers are mostly fools and the DNR has little experience in wild hog varieties. So in an attempt to include all the various ways wild hogs look, they wrote a law that could have described heritage breeds. The DNR was never after Bakers heritage breed. But they were after the wild hogs he bought and their offspring. So, just to muddy the water, Baker crossed his rare heritage breed with the nasty wild hogs. He whipped up sympathy and money. For Baker it was the principal, but to others they just wanted the pest eradicated and that starts by eliminating the initial breeding sources, like Baker's. Michigan is famous for building cars. Not doing so well at that right now. The taxpayers can't be expected to pay hunters $100 an ear for wild hogs while Baker is still breeding them. 
A reasonable person would see the environmental damage wrought by the recent introduction of this invasive species, admitted he couldn't contain them, use the year the DNR gave everyone to sell to the sport ranches that were buying them to shoot and focus on his growing demand for heritage pork to those high end restaurants. A fool would start cross breeding their rare breed to wild pigs and spend countless hours in this self made battle against those that want to protect the environment. That includes crops, gardens and livestock. 
I like the spirit he displays, but on this issue, he's on the wrong side.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

myheaven said:


> Gerold if I remember correctly he got rid of the boar a while ago. but some of his pigs are sill like 1/32 russian. His pigs are not wild. they are domesticated with a heritage back round.


Please recheck your facts. Baker was crossing his heritage breeds with wild. Check my figures, but that's 50/50. I think while Baker was fighting the DNR, he was intentionally blurring the line between Wild and heritage. The DNR wasn't ever going to kill his hogs. That is hype used to get support. DNR told him to get rid of them.


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## Dstrnad (Aug 9, 2014)

Cranbrook, would you mind filling out your profile where you are, what you do, who you are, etc. Thank You

I agree with some of your post but have some questions.

1) What was he supposed to do with his hogs if he could not sell or transport his hogs and had to get rid of them? To be killed is the only logical outcome either directly or indirectly it would be at the dnr's hand.

2) Last I heard they estimate between 3000-5000 feral swine. @ $100 a pop that is less than they are going to pay on the 5 year study. I think that people would rather their taxes went to a bounty vs more DNR employees. I'm not sure where you are from but here in Michigan the DNR operates with a heavy hand, ask any citizen of the state.

3) Where are you getting your info? 50% It was my understanding that Mark only was using the Russian Boar to add specific traits to his Mangalista. So every generation would have less and less Russian Boar, at the trial dismissal he was down to 1/7th. What percent would be ok with you? All pigs started out that way.

4) Are you saying only Russian Boar would be illegal under the law as written and not heritage hogs raised on pasture? I didn't read it that way.

5) It's my understanding that Mark asked the DNR for clarification before all this mess started, and they would not clarify. They could have said at that point that Mangalista are ok. Instead they referred to the declaratory ruling for identification which covered all pigs. Do have information to the contrary.

6) Baker was not a sport breeder. Where did you get that info?

7) Are you ok with a law that made all heritage breeds illegal?


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I've followed this case and the mangalista breed pretty intently. To preserve the quality of the breed and keep from getting too inbred it was necessary to add some Russian. The meat quality is the reason for the breed, it, and some of the gourmet Spanish hogs have a good dose of what could be called "Russian" (which is a very American term). Crossing them with a modern breed would be a huge step in the wrong direction, no need to propagate any more of that "other white meat" garbage. We are talking about niche market, high end cuts, and artisan cured pork products, geared toward persons of culture, not the wallyworld stuff. I realize that this takes a leap of faith to believe that Mr. Baker is legitimate. It would be a much larger leap of faith to believe that the powers that be are wise and benevolent, and are armed with good, unbiased science.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

barnbilder said:


> I've followed this case and the mangalista breed pretty intently. To preserve the quality of the breed and keep from getting too inbred it was necessary to add some Russian. The meat quality is the reason for the breed, it, and some of the gourmet Spanish hogs have a good dose of what could be called "Russian" (which is a very American term). Crossing them with a modern breed would be a huge step in the wrong direction, no need to propagate any more of that "other white meat" garbage. We are talking about niche market, high end cuts, and artisan cured pork products, geared toward persons of culture, not the wallyworld stuff. I realize that this takes a leap of faith to believe that Mr. Baker is legitimate. It would be a much larger leap of faith to believe that the powers that be are wise and benevolent, and are armed with good, unbiased science.


Are you saying that the Mangalista breed of hog was part Russian boar before? Or that Russian is now being added to improve the breed? I know nothing of this breed but would like to learn more about the history of the Mangalista and if it had Russian boar in it years ago.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Yes, it was a Hungarian breed that was developed by hybridization with European Boar. They have a lot of dark red meat. Crossing them with a Yorkshire would not perpetuate this trait. Due to oppressive and burdensome regulation it is very difficult to obtain breeding stock in this country. So you have a limited gene pool to work with, with regard to things like inbreeding depression. European Boar have some of the carcass traits needed, are highly available in the US, and are a part of the breeds original makeup. Seems like a no brainer to use this to grade in to a rare and vulnerable strain. 

If they really wanted to control feral hogs, they should put a government agency in charge of their well being. Worked wonders in WVA, almost zero hogs in the original stocking area, despite multiple Russian boar stockings. They are doing just fine in the places that they migrated to that actually have habitat suitable for hogs, however.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

barnbilder said:


> Yes, it was a Hungarian breed that was developed by hybridization with European Boar. They have a lot of dark red meat. Crossing them with a Yorkshire would not perpetuate this trait. Due to oppressive and burdensome regulation it is very difficult to obtain breeding stock in this country. So you have a limited gene pool to work with, with regard to things like inbreeding depression. European Boar have some of the carcass traits needed, are highly available in the US, and are a part of the breeds original makeup. Seems like a no brainer to use this to grade in to a rare and vulnerable strain.
> 
> If they really wanted to control feral hogs, they should put a government agency in charge of their well being. Worked wonders in WVA, almost zero hogs in the original stocking area, despite multiple Russian boar stockings. They are doing just fine in the places that they migrated to that actually have habitat suitable for hogs, however.


Thanks for the reply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangalitsa

Above is a link for some of the history of the Mangallitsa. 
I will look at the history of it and learn more about it. There are some Mangalista pure breed being raised here in Missouri. The ones here are Red and some are the curly type. 

I have an email from a fellow over on the east coast that wants to sell me a couple. 

Nice looking pigs. 

Best,
Gerold.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Manga hams are typically selling for about $275 per. So you have farmers thinking outside the box, developing a niche market, remaining solvent without fitting the mold of big Ag and bigger Government. That is usually a recipe for government intervention.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

All hog breeds were developed from n on-domesticated wild feral hogs.If you believe adding tough hided, tiny ham, rough shouldered Russian as a direct way of improving this registered heritage breed, you might like the LGD I've been crossing with wolves to increase their intelligence. 
There are several other heritage breeds that have the red meat, full flavor that could be used in a cross, instead of grabbing the boar you were using to breed wild hogs in your sport hunt business. 
I don't expect to change your mind, nor you change mine. The government moved (way too slowly) to try to protect the property of the residents by banning wild hogs. The State did a poor job executing it. Baker and a few others could have sold the rest of the wild hogs to the sport shooters and gone on with their heritage breeds. But like the folks of Ferguson, a few people fanning the flames among people that are looking for a reason to hate, and Baker is your martyr. He seems to love the attention.
By the way a guy in northern OK was just caught transporting and then releasing feral pigs. By Baker's definition, once he loaded them up they weren't feral any more. Right?


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## Dstrnad (Aug 9, 2014)

When do you think you'll have the LGDs available for sale I may be interested in one.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Name a heritage breed that could improve the redness and firmness of flesh in the Mangalitsa, including the loin cuts. The difference in Baker and all of the people that still turn loose feral hogs in Michigan, is that Baker dared question the DNR's authoriti. What about Hereford hogs? They can throw a striped pig every now and then. What about Guinea Hogs, some of them have pretty straight tails? The MDNR has done nothing to clear that up, and they have done nothing to protect property from hog damage, as they still allow shooting preserves with hogs on them, just like every state that has a hog problem. So far all they have offered is burdensome, un-enforceable regulation, and jackbooted thuggery. I can see the similarity to Ferguson in terms of the DNR's rampant looting, but that is about as far as I can draw a connection.


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## Dstrnad (Aug 9, 2014)

Cranbrook,
What is all this nonsense about his sport hunt business? You might want to check your facts.

This is not just about the Russian boar. He could not just have went on with heritage breeds according to the DNR those would have been illegal.


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## Dstrnad (Aug 9, 2014)

Yeah just like Ferguson I guess i missed all the homesteaders looting Tractor supply.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

The wild hogs brought into Michigan are a variety of strains. Different areas in the south have wild pigs that look different from other wild hogs in other areas. Most have mixed with some feral domestic breeds that escaped the farm. Anyone that hunts wild hogs knows what the hogs look like in their hunting areas and aren't going to mistake them for farm hogs. While the behavior of most wild hogs is obvious to those that know hogs, getting a lawyer to write it down in such a way that someone couldn't poke a hole in it is near impossible. Then getting a State government department with zero experience in livestock and little knowledge of this newly arrived species to guide them is bound to be a cluster.
All the farmers that raise hogs know what disease problems come with wild hogs mingling with their hogs. The crop farmers know the damage a few wild hogs can do to a crop. Those tree hugger types don't want another animal eating ground nesting eggs and increased erosion from ditch bank rutting in wildlife areas. Most of the people that were raising wild hogs admit they couldn't keep them inside fences.
So, there is a general understanding they do damage and a general desire to get rid of them. But there is also a sense that we don't want someone else telling us what to do and especially Cops. Easy to make DNR look like Cops. Easy to get folks excited with, "Today my heritage pigs, tomorrow they'll be after your children." Everyone loves an underdog and that's how Baker has presented himself. 
Because of the diseases they carry, wild hogs shouldn't have been allowed into Michigan, to start with. Many were imported illegally, never checked for deadly pig diseases and damaging non-native parasites. I'm not going to get too excited about it, few people support wild hogs in Michigan. Eventually, those close to the situation will see truth and those far away will lose interest. But don't believe for one moment that this is anything to do with Big Farmer against Little Farmer. Michigan is a great promoter of small farming.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

http://modernfarmer.com/2014/03/meet-mangalitsa-hairy-pig-thats-kobe-beef-pork/

Some people just don't want to change the Mangalitsa the way it is. 
Looks like a beautiful pig. Should i go ahead and buy that breeding pair for $750.

Best,
Gerold.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Dstrnad said:


> Cranbrook,
> What is all this nonsense about his sport hunt business? You might want to check your facts.
> 
> This is not just about the Russian boar. He could not just have went on with heritage breeds according to the DNR those would have been illegal.


Check your facts, DNR never after his Mangalesa, never. Nor were they going to shoot his hogs. In addition to his heritage hog business, he was breeding wild hogs to sell to the places that pay to shoot. DNR gave him a year to sell them to those places. They gave those places a year to complete their reserved hunts. Then it was over, illegal to breed, illegal to buy, illegal to haul in from other states. Baker refused. Tried to muddy the water by cross breeding, making it even less clear cut what was wild pigs and what was heritage/domestic.
The description the DNR used was overly broad. Had to be. Wild hogs aren't uniform. When domestic hogs get loose and run with and breed with wild hogs, they might be considered wild hogs, but they are clearly feral hogs.
I think we have all known someone that was a nit picker. Always looking for a way to get around a rule. If you agree with that person, they are your hero. If you don't agree, that person just makes a simple town meeting two hours longer and nothing gets accomplished.


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## woodsman14 (Oct 6, 2014)

Dstrnad said:


> Cranbrook,
> What is all this nonsense about his sport hunt business? You might want to check your facts.
> 
> This is not just about the Russian boar. He could not just have went on with heritage breeds according to the DNR those would have been illegal.


1.) Yes, even Ted Nugent held hunts. BTW he was a draft dodger among other things, though not all are pertinent to this thread.

2.). I raise registered Hereford Hogs, we have ZERO legal issues and the DNR has a post less than 7 miles from me. So yes, you can raise them and every other Heritage breed of recognized Domesticated swine. Maybe you should check your facts?


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

You might try to do a little fact checking. First off, any farmer who has wild hogs co-mingling with his tame hogs needs to evaluate his fencing situation. The DNR has been going after Baker, because as a farmer, he is low hanging fruit. Easy prey that can't get away. The fenced hunting operations, which are the real contributing factor in Michigan's feral hog problem, have either sidestepped the law by using compliant genetics, or are just doing business as usual. Those operations still exist, which makes the argument that Baker was supplying those operations irrelevant. It makes no difference if it is a "Stoker" hog or a "Russian" or a Tamworth, if you turn them loose to go wild in a large enclosure and they escape, there is a problem. But that would take real enforcement to control. Much easier to attack a farmer, then when it gets too much press, drop the whole thing, and then go after him again when you think the coast is clear. This is what the DNR has done and is doing. 

The feral hog problem in the US as a whole, is just media hype. Little has changed in the 60 years or so since it was common practice for the government to stock pure Russian boars on Air Force bases and other such stellar wildlife management decisions. The only difference has been in regulation. At one time, people that wanted feral hogs had them. People that didn't, took care of them themselves, or let others do it. People at one time could earn a living trapping hogs, if they were good at it. The government put a stop to selling wild hogs at the stock market. They used some trumped up reasons like stopping the spread of disease, (kind of irrelevant for a country with open borders.) So in order to stop the spread of disease, they took actions that probably caused the hog population to increase tenfold. If you believe that wild hogs can't be eradicated, you are a victim of propaganda. They can be eradicated, and have been in many instances. Whitetailed deer were almost eradicated, and those things are like rats. But it can't be done while allowing people to make money letting people shoot wild hogs on their place, and at the same time making it illegal to sell wild caught hogs for food. Harassing people for having Mangalitsas with a thirty second of wild boar in them will definitely have no effect, but it is easy and it feels good to people that are otherwise uninformed.

If anyone wants hogs controlled, the USDA offers that service. They do a very poor job of it, but they ensure that by doing control work for free, that no serious private sector entity can compete. It is a never ending cycle of media hype, perceived rise in populations, tax funding, and proof positive that nobody can control feral hogs because the federal government is trying really hard and failing. Unless people get smarter, I don't really see that cycle changing. But maybe if they drive Baker to a heart attack, the airhead reading the evening news can sleep peacefully knowing that those bad old wild hogs aren't going to eat the begonias at her condo.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

http://www.superiorgameranch.com/pages/boarhunt.html
http://www.bearmountainquest.com/hunting.html
http://www.trophyranch.com/

Just the tip of the iceberg. No chance of any of those escaping, and besides, if they do, I'm sure they all meet the DNR guidelines. So just pat yourself on the back, and condemn "the guy that makes the council meeting take more than five minutes." The government is taking good care of you. They are protecting you from bad people like Mark Baker who have the audacity to question them.


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## woodsman14 (Oct 6, 2014)

barnbilder said:


> http://www.superiorgameranch.com/pages/boarhunt.html
> http://www.bearmountainquest.com/hunting.html
> http://www.trophyranch.com/
> 
> Just the tip of the iceberg. No chance of any of those escaping, and besides, if they do, I'm sure they all meet the DNR guidelines. So just pat yourself on the back, and condemn "the guy that makes the council meeting take more than five minutes." The government is taking good care of you. They are protecting you from bad people like Mark Baker who have the audacity to question them.


Well, you link game/sport hunting sites :facepalm: and I will link straight to the state of Michigan.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12145_55230-276322--,00.html

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12145_55230---,00.html


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

So basically, the state of Michigan is stating that their inspection yielded nothing but Mark Baker, while thirty seconds of google can find what amounts to hundreds of potential feral swine. Maybe they should let some of their IT guys help with investigation instead of keeping them so busy changing the information on their website.


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## Philosaw (Mar 3, 2014)

Michigan isn't the only state with a wacky government. In California I've seen our Fish and Game make blunder after blunder over the years such as introducing wild turkeys which have gone nuts all over the state and damage crops. Then there was Fallow Deer introduced instead of doing something productive to protect our blacktail deer. How about allowing farmers to line the creeks with old autos to prevent erosion. Then on top of that they declare feral hogs a problem but now require a tag to shoot with a one a day limit! I'm not a government hater, but sometimes I wonder at an entity that can put a man on the moon but can't figure out an answer to a simple pig problem.


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## woodsman14 (Oct 6, 2014)

Barnbilder, do you honestly believe everything posted on the internet is true?

Plilosaw, they aren't solving a pig problem here, they are preventing it. Check the links I gave. It plainly spells out a particular species of swine. So all the stories being perpetuated about heritage breeds being illegal are flat out lies designed to cause fear and confusion among people, namely farmers and voters to get public sympathy.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

woodsman14 said:


> Barnbilder, do you honestly believe everything posted on the internet is true?
> 
> Plilosaw, they aren't solving a pig problem here, they are preventing it. Check the links I gave...


Do you honestly believe everything the government tells you is true...and everything they do is logical and for your own good?


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

cranbrook said:


> you might like the LGD I've been crossing with wolves to increase their intelligence.


Hmm... You mean something like these:










http://sugarmtnfarm.com/dogs

Fantastic livestock herding and guarding dogs. We've had them for six generations on our farm. They eat predators, keep the livestock in the right fields and are great at herding as well.

-Walter

PS. Cranbrook, Please fill in your location information which makes it easier to answer questions. At the very least your zone. See this thread:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/pigs/505485-please-fill-location-info.html


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Some people seem to forget that the government is not a magical benevolent beast, but is made up of people. Always fallible, sometimes corruptible, lazy, greedy people.

If you check the facebook pages of some of those places, there are some pretty current posts with pictures of some really big hogs that look and are described as Russians. But I'm sure they are just filling exhisting bookings. And I'm sure none of those are breeding or escaping.

There is a huge market for what some describe as "bony, tiny hammed, tough" hogs. What some consider a heritage breed runs two bucks a pound, and what others consider a heritage breed runs you about $40 a pound. The difference is that one of them has a high percentage of Russian traits and/or genetics. If you keep them in an adequate fence what difference does it make if they are 100% Russian or if they are pot-bellies? If they get loose, what difference does it make if they are a Russian, or one of the Stoker Hogs that have been developed for Michigan hunting preserves to look and act like a Russian but meet the ISO requirements?

The difference is, that Michigan DNR officers don't want to walk miles of wet, muddy, briar covered fenceline, doing the inspections that would be needed to actually impact the perceived hog problem. They would get their fancy paramilitary uniforms all dirty. Much easier to roll up into farmers place and give him a hard time.


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## woodsman14 (Oct 6, 2014)

I can only laugh. :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

woodsman14 said:


> I can only laugh. :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:


Why? Can't think of a brilliant response? I understand. :thumb:


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## woodsman14 (Oct 6, 2014)

Well honestly I didn't come here to argue, and since I live in Michigan and you don't, I'll just watch for the obviously fact filled posts of government conspiracies with great anticipation. :thumb:


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## docholiday (Jul 31, 2014)

I live in Michigan. I also work at a very well respected pig farm. From the discussion ive had with the farm owners, their not Baker fans at all. They know him and are familiar with his operation and are embarrassed to have him as a local pig farmer. Sometimes one sided YouTube videos and articles that lean toward our big bad government stepping on the little guy and stripping us of our rights is easy to buy into. I'm not really picking sides, all I'm saying is that some local pig farmers who are very intelligent, excellent at what they do, and level headed are not on his supporting team, take that for what it's worth.


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

docholiday said:


> I'm not really picking sides, all I'm saying is that some local pig farmers who are very intelligent, excellent at what they do, and level headed are not on his supporting team, take that for what it's worth.


I'm not picking sides either. I don't know Baker, but I HAVE read the court briefs, and have watched court proceedings, and have followed the developments in this story.

Maybe Baker is an arrogant, egocentric ideologue...or maybe he's just a guy that feels he's being targeted by unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats, and feels like he has a moral duty to fight them on principle. I don't know which one he is.

What I do know is the MDNR made an unwieldy, unenforceable classification/regulation. This regulation created more confusion than it solved, because it wasn't based on logic or swine biology. When the DNR was questioned about the regulation, the bureaucrats did what bureaucrats do. They used the full power of the government to intimidate and destroy anyone who has the chutzpah to push back.

It's clear that Baker really pissed some people off. Maybe he was itching for a fight, maybe he brought a lot of problems on himself. But even if this is the case, assuming the DNR has no culpability because in a MDNR publication it sets the record straight about the MDNR and the feral swine problem... is just as naÃ¯ve as those who think that Baker had SWAT teams descend on his farm and shoot all his large black pigs.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Wonder what the local pig farmers think of the dozens of fenced hunting enclosures that are still stocking wild hogs?

A persons popularity is not what is being questioned here. It is the matter of un-elected bureaucrats making un-enforceable regulations and singling out selected individuals that they deem "less mainstream". Kind of like mob rule, but with badges. 

It would all be much more believable if they didn't allow people to stock wild hogs of any kind. It would also help if they had maybe a little bigger hog problem. They have been keeping records for three years now and the county with the highest kill reported 16 hogs killed in that time. Some counties don't even have reported sightings, and most have one or two sightings and maybe one kill. !6 hogs is a good mornings hunt in Texas. Of course the ones that the locals catch in a hog trap and sell back to the hunt clubs where they came from probably don't get counted.


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## Zimobog (Aug 31, 2013)

highlands said:


> Hmm... You mean something like these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See dogs like Walter's would be totally illegal here in AK, whereas I myself own two swine of 50% Russian genetics which would be illegal in Michigan.

The way I see it, unless Walter's dogs were on my property I (nor any other collection of people) are entitled to so much as an opinion about his dogs.
Private property residing on private property.

I feel the same way about Russian hogs. Unless my property damages your property in some way, there is no grounds for intervention. It's my job to make sure that doesn't happen, to keep my property to myself.

I don't care if Walter has dogs that are half Tyrannasuarus Rex- not my property and not my problem.

yeah, yeah... Think of the children.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

I'm working on Mammoth genetics for our pigs... T-Rex is an interesting idea...  (That's a grin, not a joke.  )


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

barnbilder said:


> Wonder what the local pig farmers think of the dozens of fenced hunting enclosures that are still stocking wild hogs?
> 
> A persons popularity is not what is being questioned here. It is the matter of un-elected bureaucrats making un-enforceable regulations and singling out selected individuals that they deem "less mainstream". Kind of like mob rule, but with badges.
> 
> It would all be much more believable if they didn't allow people to stock wild hogs of any kind. It would also help if they had maybe a little bigger hog problem. They have been keeping records for three years now and the county with the highest kill reported 16 hogs killed in that time. Some counties don't even have reported sightings, and most have one or two sightings and maybe one kill. !6 hogs is a good mornings hunt in Texas. Of course the ones that the locals catch in a hog trap and sell back to the hunt clubs where they came from probably don't get counted.


The state has given the hunt clubs , and people that raise certain hogs for the hunt clubs or for any other reason a time limit to get rid of the hogs. After that time they will be faced with a fine for each illegal hog they have on their property. They have till sometime in 2015 to get rid of the unwanted pigs. That is what the state has posted on their web site. If you need to know more about the date and time about this you can go to the states web site.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Those that pretend not to know the difference in fence pressure between Heritage Hogs and Wild Hogs, might not think there is a difference between a house cat and a feral cat. But if you try to pet a feral cat, you'll learn the difference, just as when you import 250 wild hogs from Texas and try to keep them inside your Michigan cattle fence. Those pigs that have been running through fences for a century or two, mixed with the occasional escaped farm hog come in all sorts of colors and tail configurations. Government rules and regulations along with good intentions aren't going to stem the tide of environmental damage these hogs present. Send them back where they came from. If they won't take them back, declare an open season on them. But, for gosh sake, stop the intentional farm breeding of this pest.
It really isn't anything to argue about. It is over, a done deal. Lots more real issues to discuss. Seems those close to the truth, have Baker figured out.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

It's a matter of training, not genetics and feral pigs have much more recent domestic ancestry than you think. Even with 'domestic' animals you should be properly training them to electric as it is a psychological barrier. Without that training 'domestic' pigs are just about as likely to run through an electric fence as not. Feral pigs are not as different as some people thing. 

Feral pigs are not as much of a problem as some make them out to be. If they really were such a big problem the government would exterminate them quite easily by making them open season 365 days a year with a $100 bounty per pair of joined ears. It's an easy system that has been repeatedly used to drive species and people's to extinction. Works.

Live trapping pigs, even 'feral' pigs is also quite easy. Use their innate behaviors against them with a simple corral spiral trap. Works.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

You know that feral cats and house cats are both the same, right? Felis Silvestris. There is a wild ancestor that is almost extinct due to crossbreeding. Scottish Wildcat is one of it's common names. It is known as Felis Silvestris as well. They all kill songbirds. Scottish Wildcat bite will get just as infected as common housecat bite. They are all invasive if they get out of confinement. 

It would be interesting to know exactly, from those "close to the facts", what the difference in environmental impact will be between Russian Wild Boar, and Stoker Hogs. Stoker hogs, for those that don't know, are developed to be able to fend for themselves and revert to wild behavior, as well as display a lot of Russian traits, AND at the same time meet Michigan's ISO requirements. They are bred for the express purpose of turning loose in the woods so that somebody can "have something to shoot at." Mark Baker has a website, a blog, and a permanent physical address, none of which fit into the typical business model for questionable people that raise game for shooting preserves. If the powers that be think it wise to attack the problem at it's source, they should look past the farmers raising potentially invasive swine and destroy the market for those swine. If they really don't want feral hogs, then make it illegal to receive monetary compensation for the privilege of hunting hogs and make it illegal to advertise guiding services for hog hunting. Good chance that irresponsible people would quit breeding wild boar at that point. The problem is not Russian Boar, they will normally come to a bucket just like any other pig that gets out, until you let some inebriated rich guy shoot them in the buttocks. For every Mark Baker that is standing up and questioning the unwise decisions of the powers that be, there are ten breeders that are floating beneath the radar, shipping in pigs from wherever they can get them, and ready to open the gates and walk away from it all at the first sign of suspicion. The reason for this, is that they have a ready and willing market.


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## Philosaw (Mar 3, 2014)

highlands said:


> It's a matter of training, not genetics and feral pigs have much more recent domestic ancestry than you think. Even with 'domestic' animals you should be properly training them to electric as it is a psychological barrier. Without that training 'domestic' pigs are just about as likely to run through an electric fence as not. Feral pigs are not as different as some people thing.
> 
> Feral pigs are not as much of a problem as some make them out to be. If they really were such a big problem the government would exterminate them quite easily by making them open season 365 days a year with a $100 bounty per pair of joined ears. It's an easy system that has been repeatedly used to drive species and people's to extinction. Works.
> 
> Live trapping pigs, even 'feral' pigs is also quite easy. Use their innate behaviors against them with a simple corral spiral trap. Works.




I couldn't agree with Walter more! I have raised many feral hogs and there is no difference between them and a domestic hog if started early. My all time favorite boar was the most gentle great animal I have ever raised. I also have lived among them for forty years and have never seen any lasting damage from them. To say that they can be described by a law is rediculous. A pig is a pig is a pig.


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## woodsman14 (Oct 6, 2014)

In my opinion, feral animals are mostly if not completely domestic creatures that are living in a wild state of nature. When wild boar is mentioned it is most often referring to a specific breed of pig recognized and zoologically typed as either Russian or European, and neither being considered as domestic livestock. I also think some people deliberately want and try to confuse the two in public for their own reasons.

Its really not hard at all to tell the difference. No need to split hairs.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

woodsman14 said:


> In my opinion, feral animals are mostly if not completely domestic creatures that are living in a wild state of nature. When wild boar is mentioned it is most often referring to a specific breed of pig recognized and zoologically typed as either Russian or European, and neither being considered as domestic livestock. I also think some people deliberately want and try to confuse the two in public for their own reasons.
> 
> Its really not hard at all to tell the difference. No need to split hairs.


https://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Feral_Hog_in_Texas_339523_7.pdf

The above link tells of the wild Feral hogs in the U.S.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Wild hogs have been imported into many states that never had Wild Hogs. As a result, many states now have Wild Hogs running at large. Many states have attempted to control/eliminate these newly introduces animals. All have failed. Michigan DNR allows hunting of feral hogs, without requiring a special license. Many thousands of deer hunters are free to shoot feral hogs. Few are seen and therefore, few are shot. But game cameras are proof that this nocturnal, wily omnivore exists by the thousands in Michigan. 
Giving hunter a $100 bonus to eradicate this pest might be an option. Might create a huge market for night vision rifle scopes. But as long a people, like Baker, are breeding them, it makes little sense to go after the end product. Stomping out the original source of this invasive species, importation and instate breeding, seems to me to be the logical starting point.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

cranbrook said:


> Wild hogs have been imported into many states that never had Wild Hogs. As a result, many states now have Wild Hogs running at large. Many states have attempted to control/eliminate these newly introduces animals. All have failed. Michigan DNR allows hunting of feral hogs, without requiring a special license. Many thousands of deer hunters are free to shoot feral hogs. Few are seen and therefore, few are shot. But game cameras are proof that this nocturnal, wily omnivore exists by the thousands in Michigan.
> Giving hunter a $100 bonus to eradicate this pest might be an option. Might create a huge market for night vision rifle scopes. But as long a people, like Baker, are breeding them, it makes little sense to go after the end product. Stomping out the original source of this invasive species, importation and instate breeding, seems to me to be the logical starting point.


 This is what I've been saying. If Michigan wants to not have feral pigs, they need to stop letting people turn pigs loose in the woods for people to shoot at. The problem is not and never has been with farmers, like Mark Baker, it is with the shooting preserves that dot the Michigan landscape with the blessings of the state. To pretend that there is some sort of difference between stocking Tamworths and Russians is folly. Be they Guinea Hog or Magical Unicorn Pigs, they will transform their environment if you continue to allow people to stock them in the wild, which is what the state of Michigan is doing. The only reason they went after Baker is that he dared question the obvious flaws in their knee-jerk reactions. Effective feral hog control has never proven to come from the government, but it does exist.
It has not worked in any state that allows people to stock hogs for people to shoot at.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

barnbilder said:


> This is what I've been saying. If Michigan wants to not have feral pigs, they need to stop letting people turn pigs loose in the woods for people to shoot at. The problem is not and never has been with farmers, like Mark Baker, it is with the shooting preserves that dot the Michigan landscape with the blessings of the state. To pretend that there is some sort of difference between stocking Tamworths and Russians is folly. Be they Guinea Hog or Magical Unicorn Pigs, they will transform their environment if you continue to allow people to stock them in the wild, which is what the state of Michigan is doing. The only reason they went after Baker is that he dared question the obvious flaws in their knee-jerk reactions. Effective feral hog control has never proven to come from the government, but it does exist.
> It has not worked in any state that allows people to stock hogs for people to shoot at.


Michigan DNR considers captive deer to be an agriculture concern, not theirs. So when those Pay to Shoot places added Wild hogs, they weren't interested, because they were inside a fence. Eventually, it was seen as a problem. Government grinds slowly. Once they had the laws in place, the Pay to Shoot places were allowed to complete their reserved hunts for a year. Baker and others raising pigs for this so called sport, were given a year to sell their remaining pigs to the Pay to Shoot places or to people in other states that would allow them.
Most everyone acknowledged they were unable to contain them and they were getting out into the environment. 'cept Baker.
As far as I know, none of the Pay to Shoot places have real Wild Hogs to shoot. There have been a few places that buy rough looking domestic hogs and trick City Slickers into paying $800 for a Wild Hog Hunt. But, if there are places that you know about that still, after a few years of it being illegal, offer Wild Hog Hunts, I'd like to see it for myself. 
They "went after" Baker because he refused to get rid of the illegal wild pigs.
Watch how the DNR turns their back and ignores Baker once he cleans out the Wild Hogs he was raising. It is my guess that he'll find another way to put himself into the spotlight. Media attention is addictive.


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## largeblack (Oct 12, 2014)

Cranbrook, you have obviously been reading posts on this thread. Fill in your location, please.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I think what Mark Baker actually did, was buy some Russian hogs to infuse into his Mangalitsa genetics. After he got done with it he phased it out by selling it to whoever would buy it, which in Michigan would be any of the oodles of shooting preserves that exist. His main concern, for most of the time that this issue has taken place, has been for his Mangalitsa hogs that contain a small percentage of Russian boar, both from their original breed make-up and from recent outcrosses. The breed in it's pure form meets many of the ISO criteria outlined by the state. The state has gone back and forth on how to handle his unique situation. This has been what this fight was about. You make it sound as though Mark Baker started the wild hog industry in Michigan, this is incorrect, the Michigan DNR started the wild hog industry in Michigan, by burying their heads in the sand on what they deemed "an agricultural matter". You insinuate that Mark Baker is nothing more than a hunting preserve supplier, this is not true, he is simply a farmer, he studied a breed of hogs for a long time before becoming involved with them, and he made a conscious decision to preserve a unique and special breed of pig, with it's own unique value and challenges. If the DNR can jump the fence into Agricultural matters, and force people not to raise one kind of hog, then in twenty years from now, when they find out that, as many have known for quite some time, ANY kind of hog can revert to wild traits in a few generations of wild living, THEN, what is to stop them from banning another breed of domestic hog? Many eyes are on this situation, because what ever kind of nonsense the state of Michigan gets away with, other states will try. They, being a faceless, unelected government agency, have a track record for blaming other people for the problems that they created, and then set themselves up as the only solution for those problems. Usually by enforcing limitations on personal freedom. The time for enforcement was when they failed to inspect fences in paid shooting preserves that offered hog hunts. They still have not considered following the example of many other states, and outlawing paid hog hunts, which has dried up new releases of wild hogs overnight in most cases. They have decided instead to approach the issue by making an example out of someone who is not even really related to the real issue.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Furthermore, acknowledging that there are still places that buy "rough looking hogs for city slickers to shoot" shows a flaw in logic. In many cases these "rough looking hogs" are carefully developed breeds that have a long snout, long hair and long legs for the wild look and at the same time have curly tails and don't have striped piglets so they meet the requirements of the law. In reality with long enough hair to survive a Michigan winter, and often times historically feral, but not Russian genetics, (ie, California type feral hogs) they have the adaptations necessary to do just fine in the wild. Put any hog in a pen and shoot enough of his buddies, he will quit coming around. All you need is a windstorm and a rotten tree and you are well on your way to a feral population. Cornfield turned under by long haired California ferals will look almost identical to a cornfield turned under by Wild Russians. No difference. Only difference is that the Californian Spanish type ferals are OK according to MDNR.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

cranbrook said:


> Wild hogs have been imported into many states that never had Wild Hogs.


There are not states in the USA who have or ever had a native wild hog population. Hogs are an invasive. A very tasty invasive, but an invasive. They are not wild but rather feral.


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## woodsman14 (Oct 6, 2014)

highlands said:


> There are not states in the USA who have or ever had a native wild hog population. Hogs are an invasive. A very tasty invasive, but an invasive. They are not wild but rather feral.


That is true, there are No Native wild hogs here originally, which is exactly why the DNR has specified them as illegal to own in Michigan. Certain groups are outcrossing them in order to Try to confuse the law which in turn will probably involve other species such as the Mangalitsa. Baker crossed the two. Now he cries foul???! :facepalm:


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Mangalitsa is not a separate species, neither is "pink factory farm pig". That shows the folly of trying to defend an un-enforceable law. Outlaw fee hunting for pigs, if you want to not have wild pigs.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

barnbilder said:


> Mangalitsa is not a separate species, neither is "pink factory farm pig". That shows the folly of trying to defend an un-enforceable law. Outlaw fee hunting for pigs, if you want to not have wild pigs.


Aye, that's part of the problem with the way they're writing these regs. All the pigs are the same species. The defining of species is a bit different than many understand.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I've seen people respond to this issue over and over, and it seems like a lot of people have a blind faith in "state". Over and over I hear Mark Baker vilified. He is made to sound as the only person in Michigan who has bred wild Eurasian hogs in the state. He is made to sound like the leader of a crime syndicate of feral hog raisers. I don't think any of these negative paintings shows the true situation. I'm sure he has personality quirks just like the rest of us, and I'm sure he will gladly accept every dime people will send to him, but through all of this, I don't think his goal has been to raise wild boar for the shooting pens. Has he sold some wild boar to the shooting pens? Of course, what else would you do with wild boar in Michigan, where there is a ready market, keep them for pets? He has stated, repeatedly, that his goals have been gourmet pork production and rare breed preservation. I haven't seen anything that could even bring these stated goals into question. No matter what his motives are, or what kind of person he is, or what happens to the state of feral pigs in Michigan, I could truly care less. What bothers me is that there are those among us that will blindly follow anything the state tells them, including condemning someone for being an entrepreneur, and supporting misguided and poorly written laws. The law as it is written, at best, will amount to a bunch of un-elected officials who don't know hog rooting from turkey scratching INTERPRETING what breed of hogs can be raised and who can raise them. If folks like Mark Baker don't stand up to them, they will start treating livestock ownership like some kind of privilege or reward. Livestock are property and until they enter or damage another's property, they are no one but the owners business. Prove that my property damaged your property and then you might have something. If the people that blindly support the state, who obviously are not even clear on the whole species concept, would render just a tiny bit of that misplaced respect and compassion to their fellow man, then we could get somewhere. This case is a perfect example of how government gets out of control, it's not hard to figure out how Hitler got the leeway to accomplish what he did when you hear people blaming Michigan's swine problem on Mangalitsa hogs


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## cooper101 (Sep 13, 2010)

Your post basically says that each person can pick and choose which laws are valid and which aren't and when we choose to ignore (or resist) enforcement efforts, we are absolutely not responsible for any of the consequences. If that isn't antisocial, I don't know what is. 

There's a huge difference between "live and let live" and "I'm gonna do whatever the hell I want."


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

cooper101 said:


> Your post basically says that each person can pick and choose which laws are valid and which aren't and when we choose to ignore (or resist) enforcement efforts, we are absolutely not responsible for any of the consequences. If that isn't antisocial, I don't know what is.
> 
> There's a huge difference between "live and let live" and "I'm gonna do whatever the hell I want."


That's not what he's saying at all. He's only saying he doesn't support laws that do not warrant escalation up to lethal force. He is not saying that he has no intention of following any laws that he deems silly or inappropriate... those were your words not his.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

I have removed posts that have drifted too far from the topic and are borderline.

Bring the discussion back to the topic.

-Walter with Moderator Hat on


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## largeblack (Oct 12, 2014)

Never mind. Too off topic.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

njenner said:


> I don't see why it is such huge problem for him raise farm hogs as opposed to wild ones. I know people here in Cali that have their property torn to shreds by wild hogs.




http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12145_55230-251114--,00.html

Three good video on how wild hogs etc. can cause a lot of damage. Link above.


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## Zimobog (Aug 31, 2013)

Maybe they should purchase all his "questionable" hogs from him at fair market value. When my son wouldn't stop roller skating in the house I bought his skates off of him. Win-win.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/news_wp/?attachment_id=10898

Hey folks from Texas, check out the numbers on the map and then weigh in on how over-run with hogs Michigan is.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Zimobog said:


> Maybe they should purchase all his "questionable" hogs from him at fair market value. When my son wouldn't stop roller skating in the house I bought his skates off of him. Win-win.


I doubt that the state would come anywhere close to fair market value for a Mangalitza, which is around $700 per head. If they had to pay for them, then you would hear that all pigs are essentially the same, Sus Scrofa, and that they were worth $1.40 per pound.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

barnbilder said:


> I doubt that the state would come anywhere close to fair market value for a Mangalitza, which is around $700 per head. If they had to pay for them, then you would hear that all pigs are essentially the same, Sus Scrofa, and that they were worth $1.40 per pound.


Mangalitza is not on the states list of wild hogs, if they are mixed with a wild breed well.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

barnbilder said:


> http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/news_wp/?attachment_id=10898
> 
> Hey folks from Texas, check out the numbers on the map and then weigh in on how over-run with hogs Michigan is.


7k today. 70k in 5 years.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Mangalitza are mixed with a wild breed, and they have striped piglets, long hair, and straight tails. All pigs are related to wild boar. Who gets to decide? What difference does it make whether someone is producing gourmet pork on a farm with hogs that are related to wild boar, when people are still allowed to dump pigs that have all of the wild traits, except for the ones listed in the order, in the woods?


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## Gravytrain (Mar 2, 2013)

gerold said:


> 7k today. 70k in 5 years.


Not in the north.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

I'm not seeing 7K on the chart, the numbers I'm seeing seem to indicate there is a soybean field in Texas with more wild hogs than Michigan has, statewide.


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## SouthGAMan (May 5, 2014)

Those sightings and killing numbers from that chart are ridiculously low. I bet on rare occasions more wild hogs are killed in one day in Georgia than that map showed for a whole year. I know i have seen sounders with more than 20 in them (counting piglets). I know several people who have killed 3 in one day and when I was young and we caught them with dogs it wasn't unheard of us to catch 5 or 6 of them live (then feed them out a bit before we butchered them).


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## woodsman14 (Oct 6, 2014)

barnbilder said:


> Mangalitsa is not a separate species, neither is "pink factory farm pig". That shows the folly of trying to defend an un-enforceable law. Outlaw fee hunting for pigs, if you want to not have wild pigs.


:hammer: Read the already posted links before you post crap like that please. There is NO FEE for hunting wild boar or feral hogs in Michigan.  Fact is you will be very lucky to find any except maybe at Bakers. :drum: Hunters post want ads on craigslist looking for land infested with wild or feral pigs all the time, never hear about any takers though.


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## woodsman14 (Oct 6, 2014)

Zimobog said:


> Maybe they should purchase all his "questionable" hogs from him at fair market value. When my son wouldn't stop roller skating in the house I bought his skates off of him. Win-win.


If I were your son, I would buy several more pairs of skates since you set the precedence. In a short while you would be broke. Lol! :thumb:


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

woodsman14 said:


> :hammer: Read the already posted links before you post crap like that please. There is NO FEE for hunting wild boar or feral hogs in Michigan. Fact is you will be very lucky to find any except maybe at Bakers. :drum: Hunters post want ads on craigslist looking for land infested with wild or feral pigs all the time, never hear about any takers though.


You seem to be the one quite misinformed. There exist in Michigan, countless facilities wherein customers pay for the privilege of shooting a wild boar, fallow deer, sick buffalo cow or whatever. Usually, most sentient beings would refer to this payment as a fee. These facilities even advertise for their services, have for some time. Some have even bragged about their willingness to comply with the silly law, and their development of a specific breed of hog that exhibits wild traits desirable by hunters, WHILE at the same time meeting the criteria of legal swine under the proposed law. Furthermore they have been given a grace period to use up existing stocks of wild boar on previously booked hunts. The fact is, that within these facilities it would be impossible to have any idea how many wild boar were present. As long as these facilities are allowed to operate there will be feral hogs in Michigan of varying degrees of wildness. I doubt that you do find many people willing to allow hog hunting outside of these facilities, because in most places that this situation persists, the locals trap the escaped hogs and re-sell them to the fee-hunting areas. Still others, lured by a thriving market, quietly import animals from various localities in the dark of night. All of these groups are certainly much less vocal than Mark Baker, outside of the advertisements for their hunting facilities. I am sure that a halfhearted attempt could yield no less than a half dozen of these facilities, if they don't really have hogs present maybe you should contact your states enforcement agencies, which must not have a lot to do, and report them for false advertising.


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## woodsman14 (Oct 6, 2014)

Aaaah! Now I see where you are coming from! You want that the State should write yet another law to further clarify that Russian Boars cannot be Let for hunting purposes that involve any form of payment?

Yes, yes, good way to further waste Michigan taxpayers money, litigation.

The point is Russian Boar are illegal to own. Why make it harder to understand than that? If someone wants to raise them in your state then that's fine with us in Michigan. :thumb: We don't want to impose Our rules or laws elsewhere, though it seems everyone wants to impose on us. :bdh:


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

http://thunderhillsranch.com/
http://www.trophyranch.com/
http://sciboarhunter.com/
http://www.superiorgameranch.com/pages/boarhunt.html
http://www.bearmountainquest.com/hunting.html
http://www.backwoodshuntclub.org/
http://www.supergranch.com/packages.htm
Here are just a few of the places that currently advertise hogs for hunting in Michigan, I wonder if you looked up the map with hog sightings if there would be any pattern with regards to the locations of these places? Mark Baker does not purport to release hogs into wild conditions. It is the very nature of these businesses. Baker's business model calls for swine raised in relative confinement and then sent to a processor.Why the attacks against Baker? Looks like there are plenty of higher risks of invasive swine than Mark Baker.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

States that don't have real feral hog problems also don't allow fee hunting for hogs. Outlawing a species won't protect you from people that sneak them in anyway, if people are willing to pay enough for the trophy, people will find them, and bring them in. Hogs can revert to wild traits in a short time anyway, studies have shown far fewer generations for swine than many other domestics, further complicating a "species" ban. Maybe making fence inspections on the fee hunting facilities and closing them down for non-compliance would work. Maybe RFD tag technology could be utilized with stiff fines for escaped or non-tagged swine. Or altogether outlawing of fee hunting for swine. Maybe all of these things plus some sort of licensure for swine shooting facilities with proceeds going towards swine eradication programs. There are many solutions that could work. Attacking outspoken, independent, farmers will do nothing, besides tick off outspoken, independent farmers. The hunt clubs can absorb it by passing off the price to their high rolling clients. Contrary to popular belief, farmers usually can't absorb a whole lot of extra cost or impositions on their liberty, over and above current levels.


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## Philosaw (Mar 3, 2014)

barnbilder said:


> http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/news_wp/?attachment_id=10898
> 
> Hey folks from Texas, check out the numbers on the map and then weigh in on how over-run with hogs Michigan is.



We have more feral,hogs in our tiny town of Yorkville Ca than all of Michigan according to the map and I am not exaggerating one bit.


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## woodsman14 (Oct 6, 2014)

barnbilder said:


> http://thunderhillsranch.com/
> http://www.trophyranch.com/
> http://sciboarhunter.com/
> http://www.superiorgameranch.com/pages/boarhunt.html
> ...


Agreed! I'm going to ask why there is a double standard?!


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

woodsman14 said:


> Agreed! I'm going to ask why there is a double standard?!


All farms raising wild hogs,all sporting hunting clubs has to get rid of their wild hogs on a date set by the state in 2015. After that date they will be fined by the state so much for each hog they still have. This is on the state web site.


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## Dstrnad (Aug 9, 2014)

Yes but they can still hunt I so approved hogs.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

Dstrnad said:


> Yes but they can still hunt I so approved hogs.


I think you may be right. They can still hunt non-wild hogs that are approved. Most of the clubs may close. Most people that hunt wild hogs want a wild hog to hunt not one that will come up to them and say shoot me.


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## Dstrnad (Aug 9, 2014)

I think we may have different images of what is a wild hog. There are hogs out there that meet the iso, that most of the people that pay to hunt them would never tell the difference. Also who poses a bigger threat the hunt clubs with buried fence or the guy that fenced his 40 acre wood lot with 2 strands of electric raising Tamworth or other heritage breeds? I think a lot of the people that support this secretly don't think the guy with the fenced in forty should be able to do that either and see how this could apply there as well. I could be wrong just my opinion. I would like to here from the people that support it what they think.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Do all of the hunt clubs have buried fence? What happens when an oak tree falls on it in a windstorm and it's full of hogs that have been shot at too many times to come to a bucket? 

Remember, there are clubs in Michigan that have been hard at work developing breeds that have wild enough traits to pass for wild, but not enough traits to be illegal. Looking at them and from what I have read, they are some blend of Tamworth and California type feral. It goes without saying that the California type ferals have been doing just fine for many generations and don't have enough Russian in them to meet the criteria of the ISO, supposedly descendants of early Spanish stock. It shouldn't take that much understanding of genetics to realize that if their are any feral Russians around to mix with this constant supply of fresh DNA, enough wild traits will be passed on to make feral hogs that survive in the wild regardless of ISO designation. 

I would say that the Tamworth owner with two strands of electric is much less of a threat than the black market Russian breeder with two strands of electric that will raise them regardless of the law, and be much less vocal and locatable than Mr. Baker in doing it. As long as there is a market, they will be supplied, the clubs can simply claim that a "wild" hog wandered into their enclosure. Happy rich guy has a swell trophy, everyone is happy. Easy to haul pigs in, if it's worth your time.


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## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

myheaven said:


> I seen a video from Mark posted last week. The dnr are starting to go after him again.
> Sit rep: http://youtu.be/0Y6z1PMOkKI


Just wondering how many offspring the wild pigs have around the country per litter. The ones around here had 1-4 most of the time. Seems these pigs in the wild didn't have near as many piglets as the sows i have here on my farm. With good conditions and good feed the sows seem to fair a lot better then the ones out in the wild.


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

Nutrition during gestation has a strong effect on litter size.
Survival is also a strong effect on what you'll see. Think predators.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Hogs have large litters, often ten plus. Individuals within the same litter may vary quite a bit, especially when different genetic traits mix at random. Predators take the ones whose traits don't fit their environment. These things all contribute to the ability for hogs to quickly revert to wild traits when in the wild, even when they start out as highly domesticated.


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## woodsman14 (Oct 6, 2014)

I don't understand. Barnbilder, what is your position on this... Are you for or against wild boar being imported and / or raised in Michigan? And what is your position on feral hogs roaming freely in Michigan?


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

My position is that the term "wild boar" is very subjective. ANY swine allowed to roam freely could potentially threaten sensitive ecosystems and agriculture. But the sensitive ecosystems have been altered pretty drastically already with invasive plant species, maybe in the grand scheme of things the pigs are supposed to invade to help control invasive plants. Maybe that is why the powers that be saw fit to make them out of bacon, so that we would cart them everywhere. At the end of the day, on a personal level, I could really care less what happens in Michigan, because I don't really depend on Michigan for anything. I just hate to see them cross the line into anything resembling a breed ban, because it sets a bad precedent. If that is all they are going to do, without addressing the real problem, they will still have a hog problem. Right now, only a handful of Mangalitza breeders are affected, but down the road, when they still have a hog problem and they decide to go after Tamworth breeders, or maybe just anybody that doesn't raise hogs under industrial confinement, the precedent is set. Judges uphold laws based on precedent. Allowing a situation in which people stand to gain monetarily for turning loose hogs in the wild and teaching them to fear people, by shooting at them will do nothing but perpetuate wild hog populations and illicit trade in the outlawed species of hog. This practice has much precedence already set against it. Telling a person what he can do with his property, on his own property is never a good precedent. 
The state of Michigan's DNR could gain a lot by looking into the practices that go on in paid hunting facilities, not only in terms of it's feral hog problem, but also in other areas of wildlife conservation such as CWD and other diseases perpetuated by captive deer hunting. States that outlaw fenced hunting for sensitive species don't really loose much revenue, outfitters learn to switch gears and guide for hunters who wish to pursue game in wild areas under fair chase practices. The lazy slobs can still shoot pen raised quail and pheasant on preserves, nobody stocks hogs, most people abandon questionable strains of hog as breeding stock and incidences of CWD go way down in wild deer. Instead of protecting wild hogs and keeping feral hog sightings secret, the locals actually start blasting them, because they no longer see them as a potential revenue source for trapping and reselling to hunt clubs. At the end of the day, making changes to fenced hunting preserves would accomplish more than a breed ban that people are already figuring out ways around. It would also help people see hunting in a little better light, as being made up of considerate, conservation minded individuals that help control wildlife populations, which in many cases they are. 

When it all boils down, Mangalitza are not wild boar, the prices that you can command for Mangalitza are not in line with anything that you would provide to a hunt club. They do have wild boar traits and wild boar genetics as a breed and from their beginning. They typically are not that hard to keep in compared to any other breed, and because they command a higher price, I'm sure that fencing considerations would be well thought out. Prices should make recovery a top priority should one escape. If a precedent is set to ban Mangalitza, then nothing is safe. Persian cats should be on the list based on what I saw one do on a guy's carport.


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