# Evil in my area... DOG FIGHTING



## aunt fannie (Mar 7, 2009)

This story was on my local news tonight... I am sick to my stomach & my blood pressure is up... I am in South GA & would like to know if you have this sort of thing in your area as well.

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=htt...QGY1jAhAQHQ2AHfvRrWZN9EEzv_sjjIpxQvKQAHiuPviA


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Sickening. That poor dog!

Yes, it does happen near here in Memphis. The Memphis Animal Shelter was even caught selling dogs they claimed to have euthanized as bait dogs. Law Enforcement really needs to come down hard on these dog fighting rings. Penalties and jail time need to be increased too.


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## SunsetSonata (Nov 23, 2006)

Clicking on that picture and seeing that poor miserable dog close-up.... HORRIBLE. I hope they catch the jerks who believe they have a right to inflict such brutality upon an animal for entertainment.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I'm in South Georgia too and have been so upset about this all week.
http://savannahnow.com/opinion/2012-02-15/editorial-dog-fighters-collar-creeps#.Tz8IUFHYFDl

6 Pitbulls were stolen from the downtown Humane Society in Columbia, SC last Saturday night and there was another break in with pitbulls taken in the last month. 

I think there is so much other crime going on that dog-fighting, even though it is illegal, gets put on the back burner with the police. When these creeps do get caught, the penalties are never very strong.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

The shelter in columbia was broken into three times in the last month.. I think it was 16 pit bulls stolen, total. The good news is that they found the punks who did it and recovered all of the dogs. The punks were stealing them to sell for fighting. It sickens me how common dog fighting is in this area.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

I spent many years raising, training, and fighting dogs.
Dog fighters do not use bait dogs. They never did. Peta came up with the whole idea to raise funds. It worked, they raised quite a bit of money. They also started the things they used to raise the finds. Kids who want to be a dog fighter will do those things to a dog because Peta gave them the idea.
A dog fighter would never let their fighting dog loose on another dog without money on it. No profit in doing that. Your fighting dog could be hurt by accident and it cost a lot of money. Why take the chance?
A dog fight will last for hours. No bait dog will live more than a few minutes. A fighting dog that is allowed to fight a non fighting dog will soon learn the fight will be over in a very few minutes. When it comes time for a real fight for real money the dog still thinks the fight will be over in a very few minutes. The other fighting dog knows it will last for a long time. If you use bait dogs you are guaranteed to loose. Doesn't make sense.
A dog fighter would never do anything to the teeth of another dog. The same thing would happen as I described above. Your fighting dog would get used to a dog with bad teeth and be completely useless against a dog with good teeth.

Using a bait dog does not make sense to a man with a fighting dog. It is guaranteed to make your dog useless for a fighting dog. It will loose every fight. Dog fighters have know this for hundreds of years. Only those who have absolutely no knowledge about dog fighting would think there was any benefit of using a bait dog.

How many times have you ever heard about a boxing champion practicing his boxing with a 6 year old kid? Not much a kid could teach a boxing champion. Not much workout beating up a small kid.
A fighting dog is very valuable and extreemely hard to find. Less than 5% of all pit bulls are fighting dogs and 0% of other breeds are. Of the 5% of pit bulls that are game less than that have ability, strength, endurance, and bite. About the same % as there are male boxing champions.

The next time you see a story such as this you can thank the friendly humane society and peta. It is their idea. Need someone to blame, why not the ones who came up with the idea? Kids may do such a thing as this. Kids are not dog fighters.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Pancho, maybe the dog fighting rings around here are much less sophisticated than your fighting rings, but yes.....they DO use bait dogs here. They have nothing invested in their fighting dogs so they don't care if they get killed. They file the teeth off of the bait dogs and use them to train young dogs. I know this for a fact. I live here....I see this stuff ALL the time. It is sickening and disgusting.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> Pancho, maybe the dog fighting rings around here are much less sophisticated than your fighting rings, but yes.....they DO use bait dogs here. They have nothing invested in their fighting dogs so they don't care if they get killed. They file the teeth off of the bait dogs and use them to train young dogs. I know this for a fact. I live here....I see this stuff ALL the time. It is sickening and disgusting.


Could I ask what experience you have with fighting dogs?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Pancho, with all due respect. I do not doubt your experience but you do not live here where drug dealers reign. These people do know what they are doing. They might not be the way you know but nevertheless, they do exactly what Barbados sheep said that they do there not so far away from here. They feed puppies red pepper in their food so that they will be mean. A woman who was waiting in line with me one day at a store told me that I should train my German Shepherd to be mean and to guard me and to protect me by putting red pepper in his food while he is a pup. They do file the teeth off dogs and have no compassion. It is all a game to them.
They do use bait dogs here and the police do put these kind of things last. When 2 or 3 people are getting shot every night, there are not enough police to put out there to see if the dog fights tips pan out.
Even when they are arrested they get off with almost nothing. It is disgusting and disheartening.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

gapeach said:


> Pancho, with all due respect. I do not doubt your experience but you do not live here where drug dealers reign. These people do know what they are doing. They might not be the way you know but nevertheless, they do exactly what Barbados sheep said that they do there not so far away from here. They feed puppies red pepper in their food so that they will be mean. A woman who was waiting in line with me one day at a store told me that I should train my German Shepherd to be mean and to guard me and to protect me by putting red pepper in his food while he is a pup. They do file the teeth off dogs and have no compassion. It is all a game to them.
> They do use bait dogs here and the police do put these kind of things last. When 2 or 3 people are getting shot every night, there are not enough police to put out there to see if the dog fights tips pan out.
> Even when they are arrested they get off with almost nothing. It is disgusting and disheartening.


When a speeder is going down the road, causes a wreck, and kills another person, do people say a race card river killed a person in a wreck?

When a truck hits a power pole toppling it and a pedisterian walking along is electrocuted doo people say an electrician did it?


If your dairy bull kills the neighbor does people say a rodeo bull did it?

What I am saying the people who did this were not dog fighters. I do not doubt that it happens, just asking why they blame it on a certain group that definately do not practice this and look at it with more repulsion than anyone on this forum. 
Dog fighters do not do this type of thing no more than people who drive red cars run over people.

Peta and the humane society came up with this idea to raise funds. It didn't happen until they described just how to do it. After their instruction manual was put out people did exactly what they suggested. This was not dog fighters. They were blamed. It is very easy to blame someone for doing something when you don't need proof. 

Can anyone name one single dog fighter that has ever in history been caught and convicted of this? If this is the case I sure would like to know about it.
I do know of a few kids caught doing the same thing. Again, kids are not dog fighters. 

There are rules to a dog fight. Contracts are signed. Forfeit money is put up.

When you see or hear of a drug dealer selling drugs to kids do people say a Dr. was caught selling drugs to kids?

When a bank robber kills someone during a robbery does people say a local hunter killed a person today?

Just a few questions I would like for anyone to answer. If they could please tell us of their experience in dog fighting it would help.
Thanks


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Dog fighting is a disgusting "sport". I don't care who does it. So is cock fighting, bull fighting, rodeos and circuses. When animals are abused in the name of "sport" or "entertainment" it is a disgusting practice as far as I'm concerned.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ravenlost said:


> Dog fighting is a disgusting "sport". I don't care who does it. So is cock fighting, bull fighting, rodeos and circuses. When animals are abused in the name of "sport" or "entertainment" it is a disgusting practice as far as I'm concerned.


How about horse racing and dog racing.
Does dog sledding bother people?

More greyhounds are killed each year then there ever has been in the history of dog fighting.
Many horses are destroyed by horse racing people.
How about polo?
Hunting?
Fishing?
Dog shows?


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

pancho said:


> How about horse racing and dog racing.
> Does dog sledding bother people?
> 
> More greyhounds are killed each year then there ever has been in the history of dog fighting.
> ...


do to a variety of factors including the decline in dog racing, over 85% of all track dogs are placed through adoption groups. most of the 15% is breeding stock. about 1% become pets for people associated w/ the industry. something like 2% are put down nowadays & most of those are due to truamatic injuries & illnesses.
most of the PETAphiles are equally opposed to all of those, so it's wasted breath. also because of the HSUS & PETA lies alot of the gangbangers & other unmentored turds do all of the stupid crap the AR whackos made up. they're too stupid to realize it's counter productive.
i learned so much from one old time dogman, it REALLY ticks me off to see them associated w/ the modern crap for brains by the equally ignorant PETAphiles.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

I very much dislike any type of animal abuse. Hunting for food is not an abuse to me, however hunting just for the kill (trophy) is very much wrong in my opinion. 

I fish almost daily to feed my ducks. 

I do find horse racing quite disturbing considering the extreme physical and mental stress placed on race horses.

Don't know much about Polo or dog shows. 

BTW...I find PETA to be very disturbing as well!


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

Yes. We have a big problem with this! I have a friend with a big male boxer that actually wound up killing a guys female pit when she jumped into his fence. The fighter guy called the police and wound up arrested and all of his dogs euthanized. My friend had no trouble because the dog was in his fenced yard.

They also put out warnings from time to time not to let anyone take more than 2 kittens or puppies from any free litter because anyone who takes more - up to a whole litter - are probably using them for pit training.


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## wingnut64 (Jan 12, 2012)

How some people manage to get so twisted and still walk among us, is hard for me to understand.
I'm glad I've never been around it and hope I never witness it.
I put animal abusers about one step above pedophiles.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

pancho said:


> Could I ask what experience you have with fighting dogs?


thank God I have no personal experience. I would never fight a dog....it's a disgusting and inhumane thing to do to an animal. I live in an area where there is a LOT of dog fighting. I have seen the animals that survived it and some that didn't. I have seen the dogs who had their teeth filed down so they could not fight back. Dog fighting is a coward's sport. Men who let dogs rip each other to shred to make a buck or prove something. Pathetic and sad.

for the record, I am against dog racing too. Sledding....the jury is out on this one. It depends on how the dogs are treated....some are well treated and some are not. Dog shows.....NO problem with this. These dogs are usually loved family pets or in the case of my breed (Anatolian shepherds) are active working dogs until they show and then they go back to their lives. Nothing cruel about this at all. In none of these dog sports are animals encouraged to rip another dog to pieces.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ravenlost said:


> I very much dislike any type of animal abuse. Hunting for food is not an abuse to me, however hunting just for the kill (trophy) is very much wrong in my opinion.
> 
> I fish almost daily to feed my ducks.
> 
> ...


From my limited experience with peta and the humane society they kill more animals than any sport.
I find it hard to understand why a group would be able to take a dog from a chain setup and kill it to help the dog. It just doesn't sound right. I bet the dog might not quite think they are doing it any favors either.


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## Rock (Jan 5, 2009)

pancho said:


> I spent many years raising, training, and fighting dogs.
> Dog fighters do not use bait dogs. They never did. Peta came up with the whole idea to raise funds. It worked, they raised quite a bit of money. They also started the things they used to raise the finds. Kids who want to be a dog fighter will do those things to a dog because Peta gave them the idea.
> A dog fighter would never let their fighting dog loose on another dog without money on it. No profit in doing that. Your fighting dog could be hurt by accident and it cost a lot of money. Why take the chance?
> A dog fight will last for hours. No bait dog will live more than a few minutes. A fighting dog that is allowed to fight a non fighting dog will soon learn the fight will be over in a very few minutes. When it comes time for a real fight for real money the dog still thinks the fight will be over in a very few minutes. The other fighting dog knows it will last for a long time. If you use bait dogs you are guaranteed to loose. Doesn't make sense.
> ...


 Have to agree about the whole bait dog thing.
If you use a dog on something that is weaker cant or wont fight bad, you are not building a champ, you are building a bully.
Like any other bully when they go against someone that stands up, the bully will fold like a $20 dollar suit
HSUS saved 7 dogs last year, they took in millions upon millions of dollars. They use it for 7 figure salaries and advertising, very very little goes to the local shelters.
I volunteer at the local shelter, working with the more aggressive dogs to see if they can be saved/rehomed.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> thank God I have no personal experience. I would never fight a dog....it's a disgusting and inhumane thing to do to an animal. I live in an area where there is a LOT of dog fighting. I have seen the animals that survived it and some that didn't. I have seen the dogs who had their teeth filed down so they could not fight back. Dog fighting is a coward's sport. Men who let dogs rip each other to shred to make a buck or prove something. Pathetic and sad.
> 
> for the record, I am against dog racing too. Sledding....the jury is out on this one. It depends on how the dogs are treated....some are well treated and some are not. Dog shows.....NO problem with this. These dogs are usually loved family pets or in the case of my breed (Anatolian shepherds) are active working dogs until they show and then they go back to their lives. Nothing cruel about this at all. In none of these dog sports are animals encouraged to rip another dog to pieces.


I will agree. Any one who would abuse a dog by filing its teeth down should be put in jail. The part I am trying to explain this is not done by dog fighters.
It was something that was the brainstorm of a group that is supposed to protect animals, not by dog fighters.
Could anyone explain the benefit a dog fighter would get out of doing anything like what they are blamed for?
It is easy to see the benefit peta and the humane society gets. Just follow the money trail.
It is rather simple when you look at it with an open mind. Who benefits from such an action?


I believe you have LGDs. You do not feel the same when they kill coyotes?
I wouldn't class all people who have LGDs as being guilty of animal cruelty. I am pretty sure the coyote does not feel any better than when it is attacked by your LGDs than a dog in a fight. One thing that might be of interest. If a dog in a dog fight does not want to fight the whole thing is over. Some fights are ended when the dogs do not even touch each other. Most are ended when one dog decides he has had enough. Not many dogs are killed in a dog fight. One way to look at it. You have a dog worth $10,000. He may not be able to beat the dog he is matched against. Perhaps the other dog is just a better animal or is better conditioned. Your dog is still a great one. Do you let your $10,000 dog die for your failures or pick him up and take him home? How many coyotes get the same chance with your LGDs?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Rock said:


> Have to agree about the whole bait dog thing.
> If you use a dog on something that is weaker cant or wont fight bad, you are not building a champ, you are building a bully.
> Like any other bully when they go against someone that stands up, the bully will fold like a $20 dollar suit
> HSUS saved 7 dogs last year, they took in millions upon millions of dollars. They use it for 7 figure salaries and advertising, very very little goes to the local shelters.
> I volunteer at the local shelter, working with the more aggressive dogs to see if they can be saved/rehomed.


Thank you very much Rock.
I am not very good at explaining things.


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## yikes (Jan 23, 2011)

Thank you Pancho for posting. Your real life experience shows in your honest posts. You have given us facts with which to see the fallacy in other posts. Thanks again.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I forget the actual wording but it is illegal here in Ontario to keep dogs for the purpose of fighting or killing other dogs. Not sure if LGDs got an exemption or not. Lets keep the discussion reasonable so there's a chance to learn from each other in this thread please. I'm not saying you have to like it or agree even.


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## Texasdirtdigger (Jan 17, 2010)

D-i-s-g-u-s-t-i-n-g!!


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

Local flea markets in NE Texas often sell dog fighting propaganda; tshirts lauding it, bumper stickers and the like.

I struggle with it because I believe all life to be valuable, humans at the top, and feel like something has to be broken in someone to look at an animal and think about how cool/profitable/fun it would be to watch it hurt another one. But still, I['m sure the disgust on my face shows when I see things like that. 

I don't deliberately cause unnecessary pain. I don't think anyone should. The end.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I don't like bull fighting either and think it is a horrible "sport".

Cockfighting and dog fighting still goes on. Even the spectators are arrested if they are raided. The spectators are just charged with misdemeanors but actual participants can get 1-5 yrs now since new laws were passed after the Michael Vick case. However, they don't usually get maximum penalties.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

pancho said:


> I spent many years raising, training, and fighting dogs.
> Dog fighters do not use bait dogs. They never did. Peta came up with the whole idea to raise funds.
> 
> The next time you see a story such as this you can thank the friendly humane society and peta. It is their idea. Need someone to blame, why not the ones who came up with the idea?


This is such a logical post. Does Peta ever really do anything that isn't related to fund raising?

Dog fighting is horrible. Actually just being mean to an animal on purpose is horrible. But how much misinformation is there that was put out as propaganda just to raise funds?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

There are a couple of different sets of rules for dog fighting.
Most go by the Cajun rules. A quick search will show a person the rules.
Please take note of the use of scratch lines and the term turns. Also take note of the amount of time each dog has to scratch into his opponent.

Now take a look at modern day boxing. Notice when the bell rings the opponents both come out of their corners and advance on each other. Now compare that to when the referee of a dog fight (yes there is a referee along with 2 handelers, judge, and a time keeper) says release your dogs. Each dog advances against their opponent.
In boxing when one boxer is knocked down the referee immediately moves the other boxer and protects the downed boxer. In a dog fight when a dog turns his head away from his opponent it is called a turn. The handeler of the other dog immediately grabs his dog as soon as possible when they are out of holds and takes him back to his scratch line. The other dog is taken back to his scratch line. The dog who turned away is released and it has a certain amount of seconds to cross the pit and make contact with the other dog. If he does not do that he looses and the fight is over. If he is successful the match resumes until the next opportunity either handeler sees to pick up their dog when they are out of holds. The process is repeated again with the dogs taking turns being released first. If either dog does not cross the pit and make contact in the set time of a few seconds the fight is over and the dog that did not cross the pit is the looser.
There are many reasons why a dog will not cross the pit to the other dog, or scratch. He can decide he doesn't want to fight anymore which is the most common thing to happen. He can be exhausted and too tired to go across. This happens quite often.
He can be physically unable to cross. This happens very seldon and when that happens the dog looses but is considered a very valuable dog. Sometimes the loosing dog is considered a much better dog than the winner and is much more valuable.

Now think a second or two and think what it takes for a dog to cross the pit to the other dog even when he is loosing.
It takes heart, called gameness. It takes determination. It takes strength. It takes years of selective breeding. It takes conditioning. It takes great amount of work getting the dog into shape for a match.

No think how that dog would be able to possess these things if his only contact was with puppies, cats, and bait dogs with their teeth filed down. Do you actually think that would be a good way to train so magnificent an athlete? Do you actually think any of those things would make the dog better at his job?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Another installment.

The pit bull has been in the U.S. for many years. It was imported in the 1800s. Mostly fron England and Ireland. The people who imported the dog were dog fighters.
The dogs spread all across America and has became of of the all time favorite breeds.
For a hundred years the pit bull never caused a problem. Never in the newspapers, never killed a person, never used as an instrument of destruction, and never even used as a guard dog or attack dog

Lets fast forward to today. Pit bulls are always in the newspapers. Breed bans are very common. Pit bulls are commonly used as a guard dog, attack dog, used to threaten people, used to protect drug houses, attack and kill family pets, and kill farm animals.

Now lets see when things changed. What caused the pit bull to change so much. 1980 could be about the time things started to change for the breed. Over 100 years with no problems. Now suddenly problems are showing up all over the U.S. Pit bulls are attacking and killing children, elderly people, and just about everyone they can. Pt bulls are killing family pets, grabbing them out of the arms of scared owners. Pit bulls are even breaking into homes and farms to kill animals.
How did this happen?

One thing happened about that time. Humane societys and Peta decided to save the breed from the dog fighters. They spread the word the dog had to be trained to fight and if raised like any other dog they would be the same as any other dog. People liked the strong, healthy, good looking, intelligent dogs. Their devotion to the family quickly made then a favorite. Puppies were sold at very high prices for pets.
People believed the story put out about the pit bulls. Why not, it sounded so good.
These puppies began to grow up. They grew up into the dog hundreds of years of selective breeding had produced. They were strong, fearless, and aggressive.
These new owners had raised the pups just like any other breed of dogs.
When they became grown dogs they did what genetics told them to do. They are a combat dog. The happy friendly puppy who was friendly with everyone and everything noticed the cat or dog it had been playing with all of its life. It did exactly what it was selectively bred to do, it attacked. Imagine the surprise of the people. They had bought into what they were told. Can you imagine how they felt when they tried to save their other pet from the pit bull?

Now suddenly the breed has stopped being the popular dog and become the devil dog.
People had no idea on how to handle a grown pit bull. No idea what the dog was capable of. No idea what to do when the dog attacked something. No idea on any warning signs. 
Some used any method of trying to save their other pets. They beat, chocked, burned, shot, stabbed, drowned, and anything else they could think of to stop the attack.
Remember this dog was bred for combat. Any pain inflicted on them they returned with a greater intensity.
People could not believe what was happening. Again dog fighters were blamed.. The Humane society and Peta assured them it was because of the evil dog fighters and if they would donate enough money they would remove them from the face of the world.
People jumped at the chance to save the breed. Millions of dollars was funneled into these clubs. They used some of this money to distribute pamplets describing the horrible things dog fighters all do to, not only the pit bulls, all warm cuddly pets. They even described in detail how to do such acts. If that wasn't enough they made films.
The attacks continued and the donations flowed in.

Now lets look at who owned the dogs guilty of all of the attacks and killings. Who owned these dogs? People were assured they all belonged to those horrible dog fighters.
But when a dog was caught committing these things they belonged to the family down the street, the little old lady across the street, people who said they couldn't believe their family pet would do such a thing.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

pancho said:


> Now think a second or two and think what it takes for a dog to cross the pit to the other dog even when he is loosing.
> It takes heart, called gameness. It takes determination. It takes strength. It takes years of selective breeding. It takes conditioning. It takes great amount of work getting the dog into shape for a match.


I don't doubt the work involved in preparing a dog for a match, but I think we might be anthropomorphisizing when we talk of gameness as "determination" and "heart". Gameness is simply the lack of self-preservation. Granted, winning a match requires strength, conditioning, and some degree of fighting skill. But the most important thing--gameness--is nothing more than a freak of nature. That is why it is difficult to find and must be bred for very dilligently--nature fights it. All of nature wants to preserve its own life, and all animals have inborn survival mechanisms. That means, if they are losing a fight, they quit, in order to live and fight another day... Except for the game dog who does not care if he survives. 

This rare quality may be useful to man, but not so useful to the dog. A game dog would never survive in nature. He'd pick a fight with a mama Grizzly or a pack of wolves and get himself killed.

Anyway... back to the topic at hand. When Pancho says that "dog fighters" would never use bait dogs or file a dog's teeth or what have you, he is talking about a certain group of dog fighters, the old-school men that were organized and followed rules. The new-school "dog fighters" that use bait animals and allow their dogs to fight in the street with no holds barred should have a different name. It's confusing to some when Pancho says "dog fighters would never do xxx", because the young punks who fight their dogs nowadays DO in fact do those things. Whether it was because Peta gave them the idea, or they just thought it would be fun to watch their dogs tear up defenseless animals, I don't know. But it is a whole different kind of dog fighter and there ought to be a different name to differentiate them from the old-school dog fighters.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Wolf Flower said:


> Anyway... back to the topic at hand. When Pancho says that "dog fighters" would never use bait dogs or file a dog's teeth or what have you, he is talking about a certain group of dog fighters, the old-school men that were organized and followed rules. The new-school "dog fighters" that use bait animals and allow their dogs to fight in the street with no holds barred should have a different name. It's confusing to some when Pancho says "dog fighters would never do xxx", because the young punks who fight their dogs nowadays DO in fact do those things. Whether it was because Peta gave them the idea, or they just thought it would be fun to watch their dogs tear up defenseless animals, I don't know. But it is a whole different kind of dog fighter and there ought to be a different name to differentiate them from the old-school dog fighters.


That's the way I'm reading it. Pancho is from the old school, organized dog fighting discipline, the gang bangers only want to see their dog kill something. In my case, I have been to many national shooting competitions, and also been out with the boy when we see if we can hit that rock over there. Both would be called target shooting, but they aren't very similar.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolf Flower said:


> I don't doubt the work involved in preparing a dog for a match, but I think we might be anthropomorphisizing when we talk of gameness as "determination" and "heart". Gameness is simply the lack of self-preservation. Granted, winning a match requires strength, conditioning, and some degree of fighting skill. But the most important thing--gameness--is nothing more than a freak of nature. That is why it is difficult to find and must be bred for very dilligently--nature fights it. All of nature wants to preserve its own life, and all animals have inborn survival mechanisms. That means, if they are losing a fight, they quit, in order to live and fight another day... Except for the game dog who does not care if he survives.
> 
> This rare quality may be useful to man, but not so useful to the dog. A game dog would never survive in nature. He'd pick a fight with a mama Grizzly or a pack of wolves and get himself killed.
> 
> Anyway... back to the topic at hand. When Pancho says that "dog fighters" would never use bait dogs or file a dog's teeth or what have you, he is talking about a certain group of dog fighters, the old-school men that were organized and followed rules. The new-school "dog fighters" that use bait animals and allow their dogs to fight in the street with no holds barred should have a different name. It's confusing to some when Pancho says "dog fighters would never do xxx", because the young punks who fight their dogs nowadays DO in fact do those things. Whether it was because Peta gave them the idea, or they just thought it would be fun to watch their dogs tear up defenseless animals, I don't know. But it is a whole different kind of dog fighter and there ought to be a different name to differentiate them from the old-school dog fighters.


Yes, gameness is a hard thing to describe. Some say it is what makes the race horse run with a broken leg or heart problems. Some say it is what makes a mother protect their young until death takes her. Some say it is what makes a dog defend its master against all odds.
Granted not many animals have this thing. It isn't something that can be seen like a certain color. It is very hard to breed for something that can not be seen and something most people have never actually seen.

The only way to tell if an animal has this elusive gene is to test that animal.

Domestic dogs rarely survive in nature. Even those who become feral depend mostly on man. In the U.S. there is no feral dog population that depends on nature completely for its livelyhood.

One thing to remember. For over 100 years the gangbangers and young punks never thought about dog fighting. Never was a dog abused by having its teeth filed down. Never dogs fought on the streets in the street for sport. Never a bait animal stolen and used. Never anyone releasing a pit bull to tear up a defensless animal.

Then Peta needed doantions. Peta put out the pamplets. Just magically the dog fighters changed from a secretive bunch to a bunch of young punks and gangbangers.
Funny how things like that happen. Wonder what got into their mind to change at that time and to change so completely?


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

I don't think you'll get any disagreement here that PETA is a hot mess of deception and harm.


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## wanda1950 (Jan 18, 2009)

When will the human race rise above it's fascination with seeing animals/people fight, bleed & die? I feel sure many would attend if the Roman arena was revived & people were thrown in to fight lions, etc. 

Whatever the rules are, or if there aren't any rules, putting two animals together to watch them fight & bleed is IMHO sick, sick, sick. If dogfighting was legal & organized with a set of rules, it still would be sick, sick, sick.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Yes, unfortunately pit bulls are big business here in NC as well.

As Wolf Flower pointed out, I think there is old-school dog fighting and then there are the young punk crowd. Two different crowds and I believe the one that makes the news most often is the young punks with a "point" to prove. I think both crowds get lumped into one.

We once had a neighbor move in, and the very first time he introduced himself to us he asked us to help him build a better privacy fence because he had a couple of "warriors" that would kill our dogs if the fence failed. He didn't fight those dogs, but commonly referred to them as "warriors". One day his "warriors" got loose and they were the most pitiful looking creatures you'd seen. A male and a female covered in mange and underweight. He didn't fight those dogs, but wanted the world to think he was "bad" that way and did. Instead he had a couple of poorly kept and poorly bred pits in his backyard junkyard, that he wanted people to think were vicious and that he was a dangerous man for owning them. They ran off and were never seen again.

I won't comment on the ethics of dog fighting. I just think that there are two different groups involved, that get lumped into on. And we absolutely all agree that PETA is just crazy and a mess.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Comparing a combat ready pit bull to a pet dog by just looking would be similiar to comparing Lance Armstrong to Rosie O'Donnel.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

pancho said:


> The only way to tell if an animal has this elusive gene is to test that animal.


Yes, and there is no legal or ethical way to test it anymore. Unless you count hog hunting, which IS legal, as a test for gameness.



> Domestic dogs rarely survive in nature. Even those who become feral depend mostly on man. In the U.S. there is no feral dog population that depends on nature completely for its livelyhood.


The exception to that would be the Carolina dog, or "American Dingo" as some like to call it. Some say they are a dog that became feral centuries ago, others say they were always wild, the true progenitor of the domestic dog and brother to the wolf.[/QUOTE]


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolf Flower said:


> Yes, and there is no legal or ethical way to test it anymore. Unless you count hog hunting, which IS legal, as a test for gameness.
> 
> 
> 
> The exception to that would be the Carolina dog, or "American Dingo" as some like to call it. Some say they are a dog that became feral centuries ago, others say they were always wild, the true progenitor of the domestic dog and brother to the wolf.


[/QUOTE]

Pit bull people have been having the discussion if hog hunting would be a real game test for a pit bull. The majority of people with real experience say no.

I don't think I have ever seen a Carolina dog. Heard the name a few times.
Will have to do some research.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Those dogs are a registered breed in the UKC. 
http://www.carolinadogs.com/


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

This is the latest news on the bait dog.

Reward up to $8,100 for tips on bait dog
http://www.wtoc.com/story/16956376/reward-up-to-8100-for-tips-on-bait-dog


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sorry about the dog but the wounds on it didn't come from a fighting dog.
Looks nothing like the wounds it would recieve even being within reach of a fighting dog for a couple of seconds.
Notice no wounds on the body. None on the head. Ears even clean.
No real bad wounds anywhere. None showing where the dog shook the hold out which is an indication of a fighting dog.
From the looks and placement of the wounds I would say they were made by two smaller dogs or two larger dogs with weak boxer or bulldog type bites, snubnosed dogs.

I went back and had another look.
Please expand it and watch it real well. When it shows the dog on a leash be ready to pause it. When the dog accepts a treat hit pause. Notice something about the mouth? See those two white things on each side?
That, my friends, are the cutters. Teeth, fangs. They have not been ground down.
Story is completely BS.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

If these scum are so interested in fighting let THEM fight but they are too cowardly to do that and risk getting hurt or killed.

I'd take the whole lot of them strip their clothes and toss THEM in the ring with the dogs.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

fishhead said:


> If these scum are so interested in fighting let THEM fight but they are too cowardly to do that and risk getting hurt or killed.
> 
> I'd take the whole lot of them strip their clothes and toss THEM in the ring with the dogs.


There are usually 3 people in the ring in a dog match. Dogs don't care. They are focused on the other dog and don't even know there is anyone around them.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

pancho said:


> How about horse racing and dog racing.
> Does dog sledding bother people?
> 
> More greyhounds are killed each year then there ever has been in the history of dog fighting.
> ...


I don't know a lot about horse racing, but I know that many of the grey hounds that raced are adopted out to good homes. I don't see anything about the list you mentioned that I consider cruel. None of them harm an animal for just the sport of it.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

There are far more ex-racing hounds than there are homes. the ones who are not rehomed are euthanized. Nothing humane at all about that sport. And the ones that do get lucky enough to go to a home take up space in the home that could be used for a really needy dog, who ends up being euthanized instead.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sonshine said:


> I don't know a lot about horse racing, but I know that many of the grey hounds that raced are adopted out to good homes. I don't see anything about the list you mentioned that I consider cruel. None of them harm an animal for just the sport of it.


I live fairly close to a greyhound track. I have a very good friend who adopts retired racers. I think he has 5-6 in his house right now.
Every once in a while there will be a site found that has ben used as a dump for greyhounds. Hundreds of dead dogs will be found. Not long ago they found one on a farm a ways from me. It had been used for many years. Several hundred dead greyhounds were found there. That isn't counting how many that were buried there that weren't found or had decayed.

Many greyhounds are adopted out. Many more are killed. Just not enough homes for the number of retired racers. This does not even count the dogs that were culled because they were slow.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

according to the NGA (registry for track greys) 85% of track dogs get placed w/rescues after their careers are over. a few go to medical research associated w/ sighthound specific health issues. a few become pets for their owners or trainers. most of the rest become breeding stock. as the industry has shrunk & rescue efforts have grown the percentages have climbed to where they are now. only about 1% are euthed outright. if someone kills a bunch of track dogs, it's because they (the person) are a turd not because they don't have options.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Pops2 said:


> according to the NGA (registry for track greys) 85% of track dogs get placed w/rescues after their careers are over. a few go to medical research associated w/ sighthound specific health issues. a few become pets for their owners or trainers. most of the rest become breeding stock. as the industry has shrunk & rescue efforts have grown the percentages have climbed to where they are now. only about 1% are euthed outright. if someone kills a bunch of track dogs, it's because they (the person) are a turd not because they don't have options.


What about all of those who do not make it to the track?
When my friend adopts a greyhound he can research all of the siblings that have a track record. Most don't have very many that do.
What happens to the rest of the litter?


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

The slow dogs are also adopted. Greyhounds have large litters and I'm sure puppies are "culled", but we have friends who have adopted greyhounds that did not have a career. The greyhound rescue people now have direct lines to breeders and pick up those not destined for the limelight.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

The problem is....there are only so many homes for unwanted dogs.....racing greyhounds, strays, puppy mill breeders, etc. For each greyhound that gets adopted, another unwanted dog is put to death. I wish all forms of "animal entertainment" would be outlawed.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

> I wish all forms of "animal entertainment" would be outlawed.


So no more dog shows, cat shows, or 4H or future farmers, no more Lassie or Benji or babe? No more RCMP musical ride, or any animals in parades? No more zoos or petting zoos or pony rides or equestrian events or Iditarod? Or.....? pets even?


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

pancho said:


> What about all of those who do not make it to the track?
> When my friend adopts a greyhound he can research all of the siblings that have a track record. Most don't have very many that do.
> What happens to the rest of the litter?


check the rescues, ALOT of dogs under 2 yo & even some under 18 months. these are dogs that can't cut it on the track (injured or just too slow even for the smaller tracks). i know of hog doggers that have used the slow track gyps to breed running catchdogs by putting them under somekind of bulldog.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Pops2 said:


> check the rescues, ALOT of dogs under 2 yo & even some under 18 months. these are dogs that can't cut it on the track (injured or just too slow even for the smaller tracks). i know of hog doggers that have used the slow track gyps to breed running catchdogs by putting them under somekind of bulldog.


Don't know about other rescues but the ones my friend works with don't allow any intact animals to be adopted out.
Don't seem like the greyhound breeders would get rid of intact dogs as the bloodline is still there even if that particular dog is slow.
There are show bred greyhounds also that are not track bred. Quite a bit of difference in them I am told.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

pancho said:


> Don't know about other rescues but the ones my friend works with don't allow any intact animals to be adopted out.
> Don't seem like the greyhound breeders would get rid of intact dogs as the bloodline is still there even if that particular dog is slow.
> There are show bred greyhounds also that are not track bred. Quite a bit of difference in them I am told.


the rescues don't, but if you contact breeders & trainers directly you can get them before the rescues do.
if you have a choice between a cold dog & a hot one w/ identical pedigrees, 9 times out of 10, which one are you gonna breed to? so yeah they aren't real worried about giving up a dog to the hoggers to crossbreed that would otherwise have been cut & made into a fat couch potato.
show & track dogs are both considered hot bloods. coldbloods are bred strictly for hunting & aren't registered. show dogs are usually poor stayers because they've been bred for too deep & narrow of a chest. no matter how much work you put into them you can only get so much out of them, 800-1200 yds is about the limit for most. the last two decades of lure coursing has improved the show dogs a lot (still not in the same class as a coldblood but an improvement still). they usually have better feet & skin. the track dogs have been bred for pure speed at short distances on soft groomed tracks. a side effect of this is thin skin, weak feet & slow recovery. their endurance improves w/ more long runs & carefully controlled running on progressively rougher ground can strengthen some dogs' feet. you can often make some descent dogs by crossing the two types. less wastage than a hotblood litter but more than a coldblood. crossing to either type or a cross of the two for a coldblood line that is too tight & losing performance will give a quick fix.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Ross said:


> So no more dog shows, cat shows, or 4H or future farmers, no more Lassie or Benji or babe? No more RCMP musical ride, or any animals in parades? No more zoos or petting zoos or pony rides or equestrian events or Iditarod? Or.....? pets even?



I guess my statement was too broad. I disagree with any animal sport that produces an excess of animals that need to get disposed of when they are no longer entertaining or making money. Greyhound racing and horse racing are the ones I mainly object to. Horse racing would not be so bad if they were not running horses so young. Zoos have a purpose...they entertain, but they also educate. Road-side zoos should be shut down. I have a problem with some circuses....but not all of them. Most equestrian events are fine...those are highly trained and valuable animals.....not mass-produced.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Pops2 said:


> the rescues don't, but if you contact breeders & trainers directly you can get them before the rescues do.
> if you have a choice between a cold dog & a hot one w/ identical pedigrees, 9 times out of 10, which one are you gonna breed to? so yeah they aren't real worried about giving up a dog to the hoggers to crossbreed that would otherwise have been cut & made into a fat couch potato.
> show & track dogs are both considered hot bloods. coldbloods are bred strictly for hunting & aren't registered. show dogs are usually poor stayers because they've been bred for too deep & narrow of a chest. no matter how much work you put into them you can only get so much out of them, 800-1200 yds is about the limit for most. the last two decades of lure coursing has improved the show dogs a lot (still not in the same class as a coldblood but an improvement still). they usually have better feet & skin. the track dogs have been bred for pure speed at short distances on soft groomed tracks. a side effect of this is thin skin, weak feet & slow recovery. their endurance improves w/ more long runs & carefully controlled running on progressively rougher ground can strengthen some dogs' feet. you can often make some descent dogs by crossing the two types. less wastage than a hotblood litter but more than a coldblood. crossing to either type or a cross of the two for a coldblood line that is too tight & losing performance will give a quick fix.


Makes a lot of sense.
I know the dogs my friend adopts do not live long. Many health problems and seem to catch a lot of disease. Skin so thin he has to be very careful when he lets them outside. They even sunburn.
But they are fast. If a person took an intact one I imagine with a little creative breeding you could have a very good dog.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> I guess my statement was too broad. I disagree with any animal sport that produces an excess of animals that need to get disposed of when they are no longer entertaining or making money. Greyhound racing and horse racing are the ones I mainly object to. Horse racing would not be so bad if they were not running horses so young. Zoos have a purpose...they entertain, but they also educate. Road-side zoos should be shut down. I have a problem with some circuses....but not all of them. Most equestrian events are fine...those are highly trained and valuable animals.....not mass-produced.


In just about anything where animals are used for competition or for a special task they have to be mass produced. Not all dogs or other animals are good for special things. Some are not good for anything. Even a conformation or obedience dog isn't the normal run of the mill dog. People sometimes spend years breeding dogs to find a single one that will win in either. 
To have a winner in anything you have to breed for it. Since not all breedings are a success you will have excess animals.
Even most equestrian events demand an animal that can preform a certain task. Not all animals are able to do this. You do not win in anything by picking the common animal. They have to be special. Not all animals are special so people have to mass produce to find that special animal. That usually leaves an excess number of unwanted animals.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

BarbadosSheep said:


> I guess my statement was too broad. I disagree with any animal sport that produces an excess of animals that need to get disposed of when they are no longer entertaining or making money. Greyhound racing and horse racing are the ones I mainly object to. Horse racing would not be so bad if they were not running horses so young. Zoos have a purpose...they entertain, but they also educate. Road-side zoos should be shut down. I have a problem with some circuses....but not all of them. Most equestrian events are fine...those are highly trained and valuable animals.....not mass-produced.


first not all "small roadside zoos" are what you think they are. some (about 1/4-1/3) keep purebred tigers, lions, etc & are part of global cooperative breeding programs designed to keep down inbreeding among captive populations. second these small "zoos" & other elements of the exotic pet trade represent about HALF of the worlds ENTIRE population of tigers & substantial portions of other animals world population. think about how many people live more than an hour away from the big zoos. beyond gas it cost about $70 to take my family to the hogle zoo. now put the entire burden of maintaining the worlds captive wildlife populations on them alone. how much more expensive does it become? how long could they maintain their existence when they are already cash strapped & depend heavily on volunteer labor.
there is a sizable minority of the exotic pet community that is operating illegally under the radar. besides the unintended damage to larger zoos, banning small zoos & circuses will only push more people under the radar. USDA has requirement for the keeping of exotic animals. if you see someone failing to abide by those requirements, harass the local USDA until they do their job. 
the slaughter of excess race horses is a viable means of controlling their population (helps feed all those tigers). would you have a problem w/ cows racing knowing they will eventually become big macs? no one is forcing anyone to eat horse but there are people that WANT that meat.
both racing sports are dieing industries, even moreso in the current economy. lots of venues around the country have closed more probably will in this economy. why fight another civil war? let the institution fade away naturally.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I don't care if excess horses are slaughtered. The problem is that some stupid politician in washington decided that slaughter horses in this country should be illegal. So that meant that unwanted horses got packed into trailers and transported half way across the country and into Mexico and Canada. I understand they have recently allowed slaughter again, but they are considering shutting it down again. That why so many horses are starving to death in this country. We need horse slaughter to be legal and humane. As it is now, if I go to a livestock auction with a trailer attached, I better lock it or I may find a horse or two abandoned in the back of it. The ex-race horse rescues are overloaded with unwanted race horses that no one wants....and can't legally be slaughtered either.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I'm not really trying to put you on the spot Barbados, but really whats the difference between slaughtering horses and euthanasia for surplus greyhounds? More playing devils advocate here than arguing, just trying to promote discussion in general. My wife looked into adopting a grey hound and we coulda rescued a kid out of the official Russian child welfare system easier!!


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Racing a horse until it's no longer able to race and then disposing of it is just as bad as racing greyhounds, no matter what method of disposal is used. There are not enough homes for any of them. I don't agree with racing any animals. Overbreeding any animal in hops of making a fortune on them at the track is wrong, regardless of species. Those who don't perform don't live. but a horse can only have one foal a year, and where as a dog can have 20 or so a year. This means there is a much larger surplus of unwanted dogs than there are horses. 

I am totally with you on the dog rescue places. They expect way too much from people! My daughter wanted to adopt another chihuahua for a house dog. We live 1/4 mile off the road and her current dogs do not go outside unattended. But she is ineligible for adoption because her yard isn't fenced. and most of the Great Pyrs and Anatolians that end up in rescue can't go to working homes....they require them to be a house dog. How dumb is that!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> Racing a horse until it's no longer able to race and then disposing of it is just as bad as racing greyhounds, no matter what method of disposal is used. There are not enough homes for any of them. I don't agree with racing any animals. Overbreeding any animal in hops of making a fortune on them at the track is wrong, regardless of species. Those who don't perform don't live. but a horse can only have one foal a year, and where as a dog can have 20 or so a year. This means there is a much larger surplus of unwanted dogs than there are horses.
> 
> I am totally with you on the dog rescue places. They expect way too much from people! My daughter wanted to adopt another chihuahua for a house dog. We live 1/4 mile off the road and her current dogs do not go outside unattended. But she is ineligible for adoption because her yard isn't fenced. and most of the Great Pyrs and Anatolians that end up in rescue can't go to working homes....they require them to be a house dog. How dumb is that!


I have a hard time understanding how a rescue that specializes in a certain breed knows so little about that breed. LGDs were another group of dogs developed for a special skill. They were not developed to be a house dog or a pet. It would seem like a breed rescue that handles these breeds of dogs would take into consideration what the breed is bred to do.

Again, just another example of people who think they have the best interest of the dogs in mind when they are becoming the breeds worst advertisement and one of the most damaging group for the breed. Just from a lack of research for the breed they are supposed to care for.


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

Pops2 said:


> first not all "small roadside zoos" are what you think they are. some (about 1/4-1/3) keep purebred tigers, lions, etc & are part of global cooperative breeding programs designed to keep down inbreeding among captive populations. second these small "zoos" & other elements of the exotic pet trade represent about HALF of the worlds ENTIRE population of tigers & substantial portions of other animals world population. think about how many people live more than an hour away from the big zoos. beyond gas it cost about $70 to take my family to the hogle zoo. now put the entire burden of maintaining the worlds captive wildlife populations on them alone. how much more expensive does it become? how long could they maintain their existence when they are already cash strapped & depend heavily on volunteer labor.
> there is a sizable minority of the exotic pet community that is operating illegally under the radar. besides the unintended damage to larger zoos, banning small zoos & circuses will only push more people under the radar. USDA has requirement for the keeping of exotic animals.


Yup. This. Roadside zoo is another word and idea peta made up to create anger. Most of the "roadside zoos" take better care and more personal care then aza zoos. Just because the habitat is made of shelving and spools instead of rock and grass people get bent out of shape. Have these people who complain ever met a cat? I will tell you the cat doesn't prefer the grass and rocks, its just more people pleasing.
I have a geoffroys cat. There is a studbook for private breeding. How many people have ever seen one in a zoo? Zoos do not care about lesser species. They do not bring in the visitors like megafauna does. "Roadside zoos" keep and breed the lesser species regularly. There is a place for them.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

lasergrl said:


> I have a geoffroys cat. There is a studbook for private breeding. How many people have ever seen one in a zoo? Zoos do not care about lesser species.


So is he a pet? I'd love to see a photo, I don't think I've ever seen one in person.


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

We have a private zoo in our area. Many of their animals are rescued. 

Many of the animals enrichment includes unnatural items, such as tires and lumber climbing structures. After the holidays, many of the animals got leftover Christmas trees(which Bodi the bear absolutely LOVED and would shred into millions of pieces).

Do the animals have thousands of acres to roam? No. But they get great care, even if they have to put up with visitors admiring with them on Saturdays and Sundays. When their lion started having skin allergies, they had 4 different exotic animal vets come in to evaluate her. It's hard to run a private zoo, especially one open to the visitors because they've all heard the PETA propoganda. When visitors saw the lion scratching and licking her paws they called the police.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

lasergrl said:


> Yup. This. Roadside zoo is another word and idea peta made up to create anger. Most of the "roadside zoos" take better care and more personal care then aza zoos. Just because the habitat is made of shelving and spools instead of rock and grass people get bent out of shape. Have these people who complain ever met a cat? I will tell you the cat doesn't prefer the grass and rocks, its just more people pleasing.
> I have a geoffroys cat. There is a studbook for private breeding. How many people have ever seen one in a zoo? Zoos do not care about lesser species. They do not bring in the visitors like megafauna does. "Roadside zoos" keep and breed the lesser species regularly. There is a place for them.


but, but, but parroting propaganda from an organization dedicated to the destruction of all zoos & all animal ownership is so much easier. really, research means actually putting forth effort & gaining knowledge. who wants to do that?


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

Here is Rauli the geoffroys cat enjoying a cockeral in the bathtub. You can see just how small she is. She is technically a pet since I am not a zoo. She cannot be bred because she has ulcerative colitis. Dont want that being propogated.










How about a serval on a bed?










Or a fennec fox:











They all look pretty happy to me. BUT they get the same one on one care and largely the same type of caging as roadside zoos have. They seem pretty happy to me. There is bad and good in any population and activity and eveyone here knows that.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

I don't care much for cats but those are some nice ones. I would like to own one. 
They look well taken care of, and from the looks of the first picture, fed an appropriate diet.
The fox is nice also.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Good looking animals Lasergrl, thanks for the pictures!


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## pamda (Oct 14, 2004)

There are fenic foxes at our zoo. One of them zones in on my oldest dd when we go there. My daughter is in her 30's so not a kid. That fox will sit on the fenceline of her cage and they talk to each other. It is the most amazing thing.


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

Fennecs are great animals. I am suprised they are not more common as pets. It is probably the price tag. They are usually on par with ferrets regarding level of care, though ferrets definately poop more and stink more. They are a more "easy" exotic.
Pamda, fennecs definately pick favorites. Wonder if your daughter looks like her care giver?


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Yes I have heard that Fennec foxes make good pets and tame down very nicely if captive-raised. But some states (like California) have regulations regarding "exotic" or wild animals. How much will a Fennec kit cost? Do you give them run of the house like a cat, or do they need to be caged at times like a ferret?


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

Talk about thread drift!!


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## pamda (Oct 14, 2004)

Yup! Good drift..took the evil right out of it. I cannot comment on the dogfighting at all. It would get me kicked out of the homesteading family as I am so opposed to it. And my mouth runs off when my beliefs are so strong. There is nothing that anyone can say to even begin to change my opinion.


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## Farmer2B (Oct 20, 2011)

Horse Racing was brought up earlier in this thread.

It is true that every year a few horses must be put down - and I can guarantee that NO ONE is okay with it. I get a lump in my throat every time and I've been a fan for a long time. 

PETA has made some useful improvements like banning undertack shows, however to ban the whole sport? Good breeders don't breed for speed or stamina, they breed for competitiveness. Some horses fight to the wire, some really enjoy racing. 
Most trainers care for their horses (I'm not a huge Todd Pletcher fan after his many breakdowns) and with the rise of syndicates more and more owners are getting more personal with their racers.

I'll say this, when Secretariat won the infamous '73 Belmont Stakes he was really enjoying himself, kind of like when you hit a homerun or out run someone. 

Now not every horse likes racing, but I'd say the majority do and they get treated better than some people I know. I can say Storm Cat sure did! There was never manure on his bedding for more than a few minutes!


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Strong opinions are good, but it is essential to test them from tIme to time with new information and perspective. All sport fighting of animals is wrong, most sport fighting amongst humans needs to be a test of skill not just who is standing last. JMO though.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

As the owner of chows, I was warned to keep an eye on them when I lived in the city limits. There are some dogs that ARE a worthy match for a YOUNG pit in training, chows are one of them. Dogs went missing out of people's yards left and right. Shortly after joining the fire department, I watched a pit puppy on leash with a guy who had a home depot bucket. They walked to a vacant property where he turned the bucket over and dumped a live rabbit out, then set the dog free.

You are trying to get these people to fit your rules of how it is SUPPOSED to be, but they aren't listening. You don't have a boxer fight a 6 year old, but when the 6 year old is first training to box, who does HE fight? 

You can support fighting, but don't try to justify other people who do not follow your rules, beause they just don't. I have seen enough toothless pit bulls in basements full of feces and urine and blood soaked walls to know better.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Farmer2B said:


> Horse Racing was brought up earlier in this thread.
> 
> It is true that every year a few horses must be put down - and I can guarantee that NO ONE is okay with it. I get a lump in my throat every time and I've been a fan for a long time.
> 
> ...


That is exactly the way a fighting dog is. They enjoy the combat. It is impossible to make a dog fight. It is nearly impossible to keep some from fighting. Some fighting dogs will actually go into a slump unless they are rolled regulary. They stop eating, lack interest, and sleep continually. A 20-30 minute roll gets them back to their old selves.
A good fighting dog is, most times, treated much better than pet dogs. Their food is much higher quality, they are exercised every day, they are groomed, and they spend more time with their owners than many lap dogs.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ross said:


> Strong opinions are good, but it is essential to test them from tIme to time with new information and perspective. All sport fighting of animals is wrong, most sport fighting amongst humans needs to be a test of skill not just who is standing last. JMO though.


Dog fighting is more of a test of skill, endurance, and gameness. It is not the last dog standing. Some times a loosing dog is the best of show even though they did not win.

Sometimes people get the wrong idea about dog fighting. It isn't a contest to see which dog can kill the other dog. Not many dog fights result with a dead dog. Dog fighting is a test of gameness. The pit bull is supposed to be a game dog. The only way to see if a dog is game is to match it against another dog. It isn't a contest to see which dog is the strongest or bites the hardest. It is a contest to see if a dog is game and worthy of being bred.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

beccachow said:


> As the owner of chows, I was warned to keep an eye on them when I lived in the city limits. There are some dogs that ARE a worthy match for a YOUNG pit in training, chows are one of them. Dogs went missing out of people's yards left and right. Shortly after joining the fire department, I watched a pit puppy on leash with a guy who had a home depot bucket. They walked to a vacant property where he turned the bucket over and dumped a live rabbit out, then set the dog free.
> 
> You are trying to get these people to fit your rules of how it is SUPPOSED to be, but they aren't listening. You don't have a boxer fight a 6 year old, but when the 6 year old is first training to box, who does HE fight?
> 
> You can support fighting, but don't try to justify other people who do not follow your rules, beause they just don't. I have seen enough toothless pit bulls in basements full of feces and urine and blood soaked walls to know better.


A chow is not anywhere near a match for a pit bull puppy. Might as well put a pit up against a house cat. It may come as a surprise to most but a pointer would come much closer to being a match to a pit bull than just about any other breed.

Gr. Ch. Dew, match weight 51-53 lbs, was a winner of 7 matches. Never lost a match. He was a black and white spotted dog out of the Clouse bloodline.
He was born without a single tooth in his head and never ever had one. He was a smooth mouth all of his life but he won 7 matches. He was retired to stud and lived a long life finally dying of old age.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

I was told it was because of the chow's excessive fur, loose skin, snub nose, and excessive scruff; they were able to fight longer because it was more difficult to get a firm grip in a vital place; perhaps not with any visciousness associated with pit fighting, but longevity in the fight. Even if they aren't "approved" bait dogs, they are/were getting stolen a lot for the purpose; at the time, they were listed as the most stolen dogs for this purpose (been many years, though, since I have lived within city limits). Again, your message is clear about how things SHOULD be done if someone indulges in fighting, but when you have punks fighting these dogs on street corners, common sense goes out the window.

I probably sound way harsher than I mean to, I am pretty tired and my subtle filter flies out the window when I am tired, lol. I mean no personal offense.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

the real PITA is that all the crap the young doofuses do is based entirely on the lies told by PETA & HSUS. the other PITA is people continue to treat the propaganda as gospel even when they have access to truths. 
beccachow
i don't doubt what you're saying. a ring of morons was busted several years ago in harlow nc "fighting" akitas
i've seen pointers make some catchy hog dogs.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

beccachow said:


> I was told it was because of the chow's excessive fur, loose skin, snub nose, and excessive scruff; they were able to fight longer because it was more difficult to get a firm grip in a vital place; perhaps not with any visciousness associated with pit fighting, but longevity in the fight. Even if they aren't "approved" bait dogs, they are/were getting stolen a lot for the purpose; at the time, they were listed as the most stolen dogs for this purpose (been many years, though, since I have lived within city limits). Again, your message is clear about how things SHOULD be done if someone indulges in fighting, but when you have punks fighting these dogs on street corners, common sense goes out the window.
> 
> I probably sound way harsher than I mean to, I am pretty tired and my subtle filter flies out the window when I am tired, lol. I mean no personal offense.


Excessive fur isn't much protection when it comes to fighting dogs. Usually it causes the dog more problems with excessive heat build up. Think about being in a wrestling or boxing match wearing a fur coat. It would limit the amount of time you could you had before you became overheated. Legs are a favorite of some dogs. If they take the legs out from under the other dog they win. A chow has very weak legs, barely stronger than a doberman which has some of the weakest legs.
Loose skin doesn't help either. A fighting dog does not use skin holds. They go for bone and meat below the skin. A snub nose weakens the jaw very much. Jaw strength and bite comes from a longer nose. Short nosed dogs are something people think would help. It is actually just the opposite.

I once knew a man who had a chow which he thought was a fighting dog. He filed its teeth to a point. Shaved the dog's body except for around the neck. He then sprayed that purple stuff that athletes use to toughen skin all over the rest of the dog's body.
He thought he had the perfect fighting dog. The first time he showed the dog to some dog fighters they laughed him out of the place and would never let him near any of their dogs or even near them.

Forgot to add, the man with the chow had never seen a fighting dog. He got all of his information from publications put out by PITA.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

pancho said:


> He was born without a single tooth in his head and never ever had one. He was a smooth mouth all of his life but he won 7 matches.


I have never heard of a dog being born with no teeth! Is that genetic or congential? Did he ever produce any toothless dogs?

Most would think it would be impossible for a dog to fight without teeth. But again, the point of matching is to test gameness, not to see which dog causes the most damage to the other.

Are there any photos of this toothless dog? I can't picture it. I've only seen very old toothless dogs.

I suppose that, even toothless, the jaw would inflict enough pressure to really hurt. A vise-grip is pretty smooth, but I'm still not going to put my hand in it.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

So it was propaganda; I will definitely bow to your wisdom on that. The scary thing is, the people who NEED to know this, don't, and continue to dog-nap animals. makes me wonder if they know, but just get a kick out of watching their dog kill a defenseless dog? 

It certainly doesn't help our perception of the sport to have so much misinformation and bad publicity, and so many participants who make up their own rules.

I admit to having a better understanding of what the sport was intended for now. Not many of us knew anything beyond what we have learned from punk thugs and bad publicity.

What a shame that what should be a sport showing "gameness" has been twisted to a game of "fight to the death" by modern participants. I think the disconnect comes when people stop looking at thier dogs as living animals and start looking at them as disposable. For the vast majority of us the sport itself as it is known today is bad enough, but the callous treatment of the dogs before and after makes us even sicker. In your world, Pancho, I get the feeling the dogs are treated like treasures; too bad you can't get the message across to others. In my world, punks leave the injured animals to die, don't treat any wounds, fight to the death, kick young puppies as they walk, it is shameful. And any meeting between two dogs is an immediate fight, in the street.

I recall responding to an MVA where the guy had a pittie in the back of his car, he was a striking dog and I said so. The punk laughed and said, "Yeah he's pretty...pretty tough." I shook my head and asked why he needed a "tough" dog, and he said because HE was tough (typical punk posturing). I asked him if he was so tough, why did he need a tough dog and why didn't he just get a chihuahua? He found someone else to talk to after that.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolf Flower said:


> I have never heard of a dog being born with no teeth! Is that genetic or congential? Did he ever produce any toothless dogs?
> 
> Most would think it would be impossible for a dog to fight without teeth. But again, the point of matching is to test gameness, not to see which dog causes the most damage to the other.
> 
> ...


I don't have any idea what caused the dog to be born without teeth. He never seemed to have any problems. He ate the same food as the rest of the dogs, including bones.

He was used as a stud but as far as I know he never produced a pup without teeth. He also never produced a dog near the quality of himself. I chose not to breed to the dog even though I was 1/2 owner and kept the dog. Also I was suspect of his true gameness even though he won 7 matches.

The dogs he was matched against all had good teeth. Dew would usually look like he was loosing for the first 30 minutes. You can imagine how the bets were running when they saw a toothless dog matched and then watched him loose for 30 minutes. Again imagine that toothless dog winning and the thoughts of those same people.

In Dew's last match he was up against a younger dog and went uphill by 1.5lbs. The other dog was a well know weight puller. Great dog. Great strength, great bite, and deep gameness. He never stopped. His owner picked him up to save him. For about 2 weeks he doctored his dog and cared for him night and day. Even holding the dog up so he could stand. It took the dog 2 weeks before he could stand on his own. I thought enough about his performance, even though he lost, that I bought several dogs out of him. Sadly they were not the same quality as he was and I gave them away.

We did have one problem with the dog. When I had him I kept him in a pen. When my partner kept him he was on a chain. If any dog happened to get within reach of him he would kill the dog and eat it. Several times he found the remains of a dog that had come within reach of Dew.

The man who had the loosing dog in Dew's last match was an example of a dog fighter. He did the best to train, condition, and see the dog was in the best condition of his life. When he knew that his dog had lost the match he picked him up to prevent any further damage. He paid gladly for the vet bills and watched day and night until the dog recovered.

Compare that to those who use bait dogs and cats to train their dogs. Those who do not condition. Those who fight on the street. Those who do not know when to pick their dog up. Those who do not doctor their dog and care for it when it is recovering. Then you will see why they are not dog fighters, only punks who have been told what they should do by those who will benefit from their actions.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

beccachow said:


> So it was propaganda; I will definitely bow to your wisdom on that. The scary thing is, the people who NEED to know this, don't, and continue to dog-nap animals. makes me wonder if they know, but just get a kick out of watching their dog kill a defenseless dog?
> 
> It certainly doesn't help our perception of the sport to have so much misinformation and bad publicity, and so many participants who make up their own rules.
> 
> ...


Thanks for understanding.

I am not defending dog fighting. It isn't something people should do.
I try my best to tell the truth. Sometimes people will take the time to read and think there might be a difference and what might be the cause.

A person with a true fighting dog has nothing to prove by letting their dog kill another dog or any other animal. They will not allow their dog around other animals. What is there to gain? There is no need to prove to a bystander how tough your dog is.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Pancho, I thank you for standing your ground and explaining this all. I had no idea there was a different culture for fighting these dogs other than what I have been exposed to.

I still don't agree with the whole thing, but that is ok. I now have a MUCH better understanding of what it was meant to be. 

So how do we stop the errant sub-culture from their twisting of what seemed to be a reputable sport at one time? What can we do when we have heroes like Michael Vic propagating the bad side to this argument?


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I think the problem is that the errant sub-culture is now the majority. So now matter how "noble" the sport once was, it's not that way anymore. Now people use these dogs to to try to prove they are men.


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## TriWinkle (Oct 2, 2011)

pancho said:


> A chow is not anywhere near a match for a pit bull puppy. Might as well put a pit up against a house cat. It may come as a surprise to most but a pointer would come much closer to being a match to a pit bull than just about any other breed.
> 
> Gr. Ch. Dew, match weight 51-53 lbs, was a winner of 7 matches. Never lost a match. He was a black and white spotted dog out of the Clouse bloodline.
> He was born without a single tooth in his head and never ever had one. He was a smooth mouth all of his life but he won 7 matches. He was retired to stud and lived a long life finally dying of old age.


A pointer? Really? Wouldn't have thought so...Why is that?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

beccachow said:


> Pancho, I thank you for standing your ground and explaining this all. I had no idea there was a different culture for fighting these dogs other than what I have been exposed to.
> 
> I still don't agree with the whole thing, but that is ok. I now have a MUCH better understanding of what it was meant to be.
> 
> So how do we stop the errant sub-culture from their twisting of what seemed to be a reputable sport at one time? What can we do when we have heroes like Michael Vic propagating the bad side to this argument?


A start might be to stop giving money to those who actually encourage and instruct people on how to best destroy dogs. The people who publish the pamplets used by those who perform these acts.

Dog fighting has never been widespread. How many people have actually seen a dog fight? How many people have actually seen a fighting dog? How many people actually know a dog fighter?
Now how many people have read PITA's account on what goes on and how widespread dog fighting is?

Vic is an example of one of the punks that believed and did as PITA instructed. He was not a dog fighter, never had a fighting dog, never went to a dog fight. He was what PITA trains and looks for to use to obtain money from those who believe them.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

BarbadosSheep said:


> I think the problem is that the errant sub-culture is now the majority. So now matter how "noble" the sport once was, it's not that way anymore. Now people use these dogs to to try to prove they are men.


It wasn't noble.
Just a way to develope and test a breed of dogs. Much like any other breed of dog developed. How do breeds become recognized breeds bred for a purpose? They have to be tested to see if they can do the job they are bred for. Much like a LGD, greyhound, or a beagle.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

TriWinkle said:


> A pointer? Really? Wouldn't have thought so...Why is that?


Look at the body conformation of a pointer.
Deep chest for greater lungs.
Sturdy body built for endurance.
Head shape and jaw length for greater biting force.
Able to take quite a bit of work and look forward to it.
More aggressive than most dogs.
And just stubborn enough to take the fight to another dog.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

pancho said:


> Look at the body conformation of a pointer.
> Deep chest for greater lungs.
> Sturdy body built for endurance.
> Head shape and jaw length for greater biting force.
> ...


Interesting, we are talking about English pointers, correct? I have never known an aggressive one though my experience with them is limited. They do have a lot of energy.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolf Flower said:


> Interesting, we are talking about English pointers, correct? I have never known an aggressive one though my experience with them is limited. They do have a lot of energy.


Yes, you have the right dog.
I am not talking about aggressive to people.
Most pit bulls are not aggressive to people.
People have a tendency of thing animal aggression is the same as human aggression. That is not the case.

The pointer is not a fighting dog, just much closer to one than most other breeds. Many years ago some people would cross the pit bull with the pointer and use them for fighting dogs. I can remember one that was well known and a winner. A few other breeds have been tried also. There was even a well know winner who was part boston terrier. 99.9% of the crosses were useless but every once in a while one would be different.

All through the years people have been trying to find a dog that could defeat the pit bull. They have tried crosses between the pit bull and other breeds. They have tried all kinds of mixed breeds. They have tried pure breeds. Just about any large breed of dogs has been tried. So far none have even been a decent opponent. Some people will say if you could breed a pit bull the size of a chihuawa the pit bull would loose to one. There was a man who bred a line of pit bulls that weighed 7-12lbs. There wasn't a breed of dogs that could compete with them either.

Years ago when the rotty first became popular many people thought one could beat a pit bull. That is the people who didn't know much about dogs.
The call went out worldwide for the meanest rotty in the world. They finally found what many considered the meanest one. He was in Puerto Rico.
He was conditioned and matched. He lasted 7 minutes before he jumped the wall. He was not even matched against a pit bull. He was matched against a bandog.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

pancho said:


> Yes, you have the right dog.
> I am not talking about aggressive to people.
> Most pit bulls are not aggressive to people.
> People have a tendency of thing animal aggression is the same as human aggression. That is not the case.


I didn't mean aggressive toward people, I meant aggressive toward dogs/other animals, or a tendency to want to fight. It seems unusual for a bird dog.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolf Flower said:


> I didn't mean aggressive toward people, I meant aggressive toward dogs/other animals, or a tendency to want to fight. It seems unusual for a bird dog.


Lots of pointers are more animal aggressive than most dogs and they are much more capable than most breeds.
Sometimes people will judge a dog more by its looks than what it is capable of doing. Many people think a doberman would be a tough dog. They are a weak dog. They do not have a soft bite, their legs are weak, they are not balanced and easily taken off their feet, and soft bodied. Some think a german shepherd might be a tough dog. They have a better bite than a doberman but are usually even weaker in the rear end. Rottys are a little better but they do not have any degree of gameness. The second they start loosing they will run. Almost any dog of equal size will take them.

Usually, the larger the dog the less game they are. They tend to be slower, don't have the strength per pound of body weight, and do not have the balance of the smaller dogs. There are some exceptions.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

pancho said:


> Usually, the larger the dog the less game they are. They tend to be slower, don't have the strength per pound of body weight, and do not have the balance of the smaller dogs. There are some exceptions.


So THAT explains chihuahuas!!! They are the most brave little things and tend to rule the roost!!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

beccachow said:


> So THAT explains chihuahuas!!! They are the most brave little things and tend to rule the roost!!


No just seem that way because they are usually allowed to. In an earlier post some people thought the chihuahas were brave but a man bred a line of pit bulls that weighed 7-12lbs.
No other breed their size could keep up with them. Most breeds bluff. They can be bad when they are winning but at the first sign they might be loosing they will quit in a hurry. One good indication of a dog with more bluff than action is the amount of noise they make. Barking and growling is a threat. A dog that means business will not need to threaten so won't bark or growl.
In a match if one dog makes a noise it is as almost sure bet they will loose.
I have only seen it work out different once. A small red female that would scream until she got into a hold.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Ok Pancho, 

I've had some pretty tenacious and dog aggressive Silky Terriers. How do the terrier breeds stack up? In my experience (a lot of it in the dog grooming area, where I've dealt with quite a few terriers and terrier crosses) terrier breeds are different in temperament than many other breeds and one part of that is the sort of gameness where they don't know anything about being small and pain makes them tougher and fight harder. 

If I am grooming a terrier and it gets wound up or feels threatened, I know that quitting, letting them settle down and starting over works best because they fight when they are threatened or hurt. I know some fight out of fear, but I had to be careful with even the sweetest and kindest of the dogs if they took a dislike to another of my dogs. 

I'm just curious as to your take on terriers in general or any of the terrier breeds (besides the Pit Bull Terriers, of course!).


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

I see the same thing working with terriers, Granny. I do not "force" a Terrier to do anything; A terrier will feed off your energy and continually escalate the fight till it's 200% out of control. I normally do not talk to dogs I work with, but I have found that verbally "negotiating" with a terrier and using abrupt verbal or hand signals to snap it's brain out of terrier-rage works best when I can see them dropping into "the fighting zone".


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

GrannyCarol said:


> Ok Pancho,
> 
> I've had some pretty tenacious and dog aggressive Silky Terriers. How do the terrier breeds stack up? In my experience (a lot of it in the dog grooming area, where I've dealt with quite a few terriers and terrier crosses) terrier breeds are different in temperament than many other breeds and one part of that is the sort of gameness where they don't know anything about being small and pain makes them tougher and fight harder.
> 
> ...


Terriers are just about the most aggressive dog breeds there are.
Many of the terriers were hunting dogs. They are usually gentle, calm, intelligent, and loveable dogs but can turn into a chainsaw in a second.
Take the beddington terrier for instance. Looks like a sissy dog. It is one of the gamest dogs around.
Terriers are great all around dogs. They come in all sizes, colors, and shapes.
A person can find one that will be right for just about any dog person.
Just remember, most might be small outside but the inside is a different matter.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

To be honest, I've had Silkys for a long time, my last two are almost 16 yrs old and almost 15 yrs old. When I showed them, I had to keep them separated into small groups that got along well with each other. I enjoyed them, I like terriers in general. However, my next dog is going to be a mellow mutt, I think. I'm done with showing and breeding show dogs, have been for years. I just want something to keep me company and follow me around, a dog that will travel well and be cute, smart and trainable. No more intensity! lol


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I used to have a Jack Russell Terrier that did whatever she could to escape from her pen so she could attack my Rottie. We had a chain link top on her kennel. She would climb the sides and work her way around the top, poking her nose at the wire until she found as escape route. Then she'd climb into the yard where the rottie was and launch an all-out attack. The Rottie really didn't want to fight but did defend herself from the terrier and nearly killed her twice. We ended having to find her a new home with no other dogs. She was a sweet little thing, but she could not stand other dogs....male or female! Most of my JRTs were sweet and could easily be kenneled with opposite sex terriers. I had one old terrier that loved to escape so she could go snake hunting. She would come home with blood streaked on both of her sides where the snake's chewed up body smacked her sides and she shook it. She did that until she was a very old dog. she was an awesome ratter too. I used to run the dogs in terrier trials. The racing was a blast. All the dogs were muzzled though, because at the end of the race a fight always broke out as soon as they came through the finish line. Handlers were there to snatch them up off the ground as soon as they came through to keep the fighting down. Such game little dogs!!


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

The pit bull was used in creating the Boston terrier. Bostons tend to have either bulldog mellow personalities, or terrier fighting personalities. I had one rescue for which I was the second foster home. The pattern happened in both homes. The dog was fine for two weeks, then started attacking the other dog(s). No growl, no warning, just attack (bite and hold). My border collie suffered puncture wounds, first on his legs, later his face. I had to keep that dog separate at all times. My border collie has a bit of ruff on his neck and between that and the Boston's pushed in face, the collie did not get his throat torn out.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Haven said:


> I do not "force" a Terrier to do anything; A terrier will feed off your energy and continually escalate the fight till it's 200% out of control.


Boy is that true! I will say that I enjoy grooming terriers. I like their spirit, the way they hold themselves, their confidence. As long as the dog doesn't go into fighting mode, they are one of the most pleasurable dogs to work with IMO. I have noticed differences in temperament between softer terriers like the Lakeland, Border, and Wheaten, as opposed to the JRT, Irish, and Scottish. I have one Irish terrier that is great to work on unless another dog looks him in the eye. Then I can't touch him until he calms down or he will redirect and bite ME. He ignores most dogs in cages unless they are at eye level. I sometimes have to cover those cages. 

I have only ever groomed one Silky terrier, and he was a little monster. Hard-muscled, fit, and ready to fight. Thankfully he had a good coat and never required a lot of work. What is it with terrier teeth? They are HUGE relative to the size of the dog!

Scottish Terriers are the most predictable biters, and JRTs are all over the map; some are domineering and quarrelsome and will bite me as soon as blink. Others are awesome little dogs that are incredibly tuned in and obedient to their owners. I once boarded a JRT who was great with all my other dogs, ignored my cats, even ignored my chickens until I tried to catch one in front of him--then he was right there "helping" me.

Cairns and Westies, too, are all over the map. Some very submissive, soft, sensitive. Others will merrily become a wall of teeth and bite you for sport. I used to groom a Westy who was fine for everything, even his toenails, but he HATED his bath and the second he was in the tub he turned into a snapping turtle and you couldn't get near him. We had to muzzle and practically hog-tie him to keep him in the tub. A Cairn I groom has to be given a Xanax before he comes in; with it, he is good to work with. Without it, he is a screaming, whirling dervish.

Most short-legged terriers HATE their feet touched or their nails done, but that is common with all short-legged breeds, Doxies, Corgis, Bassets, PBGV, etc.

My favorite terriers are Border Terriers. Awesome temperament. The terrier spirit without the aggression. I regularly see two that I handstrip and they kiss me the whole time; when I get to a sensitive area, they will ever-so-gently begin to nibble my fingers to let me know they're starting to get uncomfortable. Some dogs will simply whip around and bite you. I might own a Border someday.

I like Lakelands and Fox Terriers, too. I groomed a Wire Fox all his life and he never had a bad word to say to me; when intact, he would try to get his groove on with me the whole time, but after neutering he was much better. Even at 17 years of age, old and frail and shivering, he never turned on me.

Airedales--mostly easy dogs to handle, but I had a couple of huge specimens (~90 lb) that were people-friendly but terribly DA and no other animal could be out while they were out. God forbid if another dog walked by when one was on the table.

Good and bad, if I could groom terriers all day long I'd be a happy camper.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

My Bostons have always been a nice balance between the bull and terrier blood. They are little clowns that adore people and get along fine with other dogs, however, if challenged by an aggressive dog, they will spar and not back down from a fight. They also enjoy hunting and digging for moles, etc.

That being said, I have heard of a lot of poorly bred pet BT's with aggression issues. The show lines are like a whole seperate breed temperament-wise.

One of the dogs caught a large rabbit in the yard this year and I came out to find my little 15 lb Boston ***** latched onto its head in a deep hold. When I approached her to remove it, she gripped it tighter while shaking it and cracked it's skull right in half.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Wolf Flower said:


> Most short-legged terriers HATE their feet touched or their nails done,
> .


I always say it's because you are trying to remove their digging tools

My restraint system comes out for most SL terrier nail jobs.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

The terriers attitude is what most people like about them. It can sometimes be a problem. Most people know about terriers before getting one. They expect them to act like terriers. That is the reason they get them.

The pit bull is the same way. But for some reason many of the owners think different of them. They expect them to be different from other breeds. They were developed to be a warrior but people are suprised when they really are one.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

pancho said:


> The pit bull is the same way. But for some reason many of the owners think different of them. They expect them to be different from other breeds. They were developed to be a warrior but people are suprised when they really are one.


I have a few friends who own Pit Bulls and they are of the belief that Pits were bred to be "nanny dogs" and that they are simply victims of bad press and bad owners. While I agree that bad owners are the biggest problem, the second biggest problem are the owners that think they are just like any other dog and it's "all how you raise them". Frustrates me to no end. Thankfully, their particular dogs are friendly and dog-social, but I dread the day a tragedy occurs because their dog suddenly, one day, acted like a warrior.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolf Flower said:


> I have a few friends who own Pit Bulls and they are of the belief that Pits were bred to be "nanny dogs" and that they are simply victims of bad press and bad owners. While I agree that bad owners are the biggest problem, the second biggest problem are the owners that think they are just like any other dog and it's "all how you raise them". Frustrates me to no end. Thankfully, their particular dogs are friendly and dog-social, but I dread the day a tragedy occurs because their dog suddenly, one day, acted like a warrior.


Please advise your friends to do some research on the breed. Just the least amount of research will show how the breed was developed and what is was developed to do. Pit bulls do have bad press and bad owners. Unfortunately your friends are the bad owners which cause most of the bad press.

Many people believe as your friends. Many believe its "all how you raise them". That is all good and well until the day when they realize that is not the truth. Usually it makes the TV news and newspapers. Certainly usually a case of bad press and certainly a case of bad owners. It is just bad that people do not take the time to realize they are the bad owners they talk about.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

Fortunately many people get away with "it's all how they are raised". I haven't had pits, but I know better. Even my Silky terriers managed, in a few minutes where I'd made a mistake of only having ONE gate between two males that hated each other (and believe me, I know how they were raised, because I raised them to be show dogs). I had two small packs, each group fine within itself for years. One night it was rainstorming and I put one group in the kennel and one in the yard adjacent to the kennel. Half an hour later (didn't hear anything due to the storm), I had one dead dog and two or three injured ones. One of the injured ones had a tooth hole in her armpit that I didn't find until it became infected, in spite of treatment, I lost her too. 

The one that died was a very sweet older dog that got along great with MOST other dogs, was a show Champion and the sire of several BIS winners and Specialty winners. I wouldn't consider him dog aggressive particularly, his temperament was one of the best. However he sure didn't like his son and his son hated him. 

I never put the boys out together and some of the girls couldn't be trusted except with a boy. It was hard for me, I was very attached to all the dogs involved, but I also knew their potential because of their breed and I know it was my fault for not being more careful. 

Also too bad that many people breed pit bulls without any idea what they are doing and what to breed for.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I used to believe it was all how they were raised. Until I got a very well bred Rottie who taught me differently. Her mother's side was all show champions. For 5 generations back, every single dog but one had earned their championship. Many also had obediance titles and some were therapy dogs. On the sire's side for 5 generations, all were Schutzhund and tracking titled. She took after her daddy. She had her mother's gorgeous looks, but had her father's sharp temperment. She was a fantastic dog but I could not show her. She did not appreciate some stranger (the judge) grabbing her face to peer into her mouth or running his hands all over her body. 

My pit bull is the sweetest, most intelligent dog I have ever owned. She is brilliant and so eager to please us. But she is also dog aggressive. I can't blame her for that.....it's what she was bred to be and it can't be trained out of her.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

pancho said:


> Please advise your friends to do some research on the breed.


I've tried. Their "research" is limited to pro-pitbull propaganda and they choose not to believe anything that acknowledges the dog's true ancestry and purpose. They think the dogs were originally bred to be "nanny dogs" and that they were only used for fighting when "bad" people got hold of them and turned them into fighting dogs.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolf Flower said:


> I've tried. Their "research" is limited to pro-pitbull propaganda and they choose not to believe anything that acknowledges the dog's true ancestry and purpose. They think the dogs were originally bred to be "nanny dogs" and that they were only used for fighting when "bad" people got hold of them and turned them into fighting dogs.


Ask them who was the first person that imported them into the U.S. And the 2nd, 3rd, 4th. I think I reported about a match of two of the first imported pit bull in the U.S.

They will probably end up in the newspapers or on TV trying to tell people how their dog was raised right and they don't know what caused him to do what he did. Just hope it is another animal and not a person.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

pancho said:


> Sorry about the dog but the wounds on it didn't come from a fighting dog.
> 
> Notice no wounds on the body. None on the head. Ears even clean..
> 
> Story is completely BS.


Actually, it looks like the dog has chewed on itself. Since the injuries on on the fore legs and feet, it really does look like they are self-inflicted. That is the first place dogs chew on themselves.
It could have allergies or it might be self mutilating out of boredom. It's always possible the dog was crated for hours with nothing to do, so it self mutilated, and it was a form of abuse. But it doesn't look like dog fights. Even when two toy dogs get into a snippet and bite each other, they go for the neck and ears. They don't chew on each other's feet.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Maura said:


> The pit bull was used in creating the Boston terrier. Bostons tend to have either bulldog mellow personalities, or terrier fighting personalities.


I didn't realize that. We had a foster boston years ago, and it was the nastiest most hyper thing. I was glad when it moved on to a home. I just didn't like the breed at all. She couldn't get along with any other dog.


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## Hazmat54 (Aug 10, 2010)

Fascinating thread. A great example of how evil slips and slides around until people think it is ok.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

mekasmom said:


> Actually, it looks like the dog has chewed on itself. Since the injuries on on the fore legs and feet, it really does look like they are self-inflicted. That is the first place dogs chew on themselves.
> It could have allergies or it might be self mutilating out of boredom. It's always possible the dog was crated for hours with nothing to do, so it self mutilated, and it was a form of abuse. But it doesn't look like dog fights. Even when two toy dogs get into a snippet and bite each other, they go for the neck and ears. They don't chew on each other's feet.


I was thinking the exact same thing when I saw the picture. But if the pic helps to get attention and stops dog fighting then I'm all for it.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Hazmat54 said:


> Fascinating thread. A great example of how evil slips and slides around until people think it is ok.


Hmm don't think I see any converts here just people who now know some history behind it. I wouldn't support the old style dog fighting either, but I sure appreciate knowing the rationale and practices of its origins. If you don't know your history and all that, ........... Just as i thought the breed its self was not bred or meant to be a man killer and its only in modern news we're seeing either a change or a misuse of a dog breed and the public's reaction to that! Useful to dissect on its own. Besides some of the thread drift has been very educational too.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Hazmat54 said:


> Fascinating thread. A great example of how evil slips and slides around until people think it is ok.


Who said it was "ok"? Even Pancho says dogfighting is wrong. I am interested, as are others, in the breed's true history. Sometimes you have to suspent value judgments for a moment to be able to understand things in historical context and why they were done. It's like learning about slavery in the US. Just because the history is spoken about doesn't mean it's being condoned... it's called education.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

mekasmom said:


> Actually, it looks like the dog has chewed on itself. Since the injuries on on the fore legs and feet, it really does look like they are self-inflicted. That is the first place dogs chew on themselves.
> It could have allergies or it might be self mutilating out of boredom. It's always possible the dog was crated for hours with nothing to do, so it self mutilated, and it was a form of abuse. But it doesn't look like dog fights. Even when two toy dogs get into a snippet and bite each other, they go for the neck and ears. They don't chew on each other's feet.


Some people will say the pit bull is a cross of the bulldog and a terrier but that is false. The pit bull is the original. The bulldog was an odity that people liked and bred for. The boston terrier and the bull terrier are the result of a cross of the pit bull and a terrier along with a few other breeds.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

A breeds history stays the same no matter what laws are passed.
Like I posted earlier. Dog fighting never was a noble sport. It was legal and sanctioned by the UKC. Chanpionships were awarded to dogs who won 3 matches. Their registration papers stated the same.

The dog fighter developed the breed. That part is a fact. Without them there wouldn't be a breed called pit bull today. There would also not be a few other breeds as the pit bull was used to make them. The pit bull was also used in several other breeds to save them. The irish setter is another one we would not have today without the pit bull.

Sometimes people do not like the history and decide to change it. Sometimes people who do not know any better will believe them. Then we end up like today. Pit bulls attacking and killing people and pets. Mainly because some people didn't like the history of the breed and tried to change it. Quite a price to pay for something so false.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I've enjoyed the conversation. I sure don't support dog fighting, not the old style and certainly not the new style. I've seen someone, don't remember who in this long thread, compare dog fighting to horse racing, as sometimes horses get hurt racing. That's not really the same thing, there is no intent to cause harm to a horse racing, it is an athletic event and sometimes accidents happen. There is an intent to fight the dogs and dog fights certainly do cause injuries. The whole new young gangster with a dangerous dog is terrible, you get all the drugs involved and whole new and awful levels of abuse become common. 

People do need to know what pit bulls were bred for and what to expect from one. They are common pets in our small town, most of them seem to do just fine. However, they are equipped to do damage if something does go wrong. Our neighbor's dog was loose one day and excited because their other dogs were also loose and barking at our cat... I went out to send the young dogs home (German Shepherds) and the pit bull was out and wound up. He was very threatening towards me and it was a pretty tense few minutes as I quietly backed up to our front door. 

The dog is very well trained, his owner could have called him back, they've never seen him like that I'm sure. He's not really a safe dog though. We spoke with them and he's never been out again. I think they have some idea what sort of dog they have, they took it seriously. I'm glad and I'm still a little careful to keep an eye out for him. I'm not frightened because of his breed though, but because he is not really stable AND his breed - not a good combination.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

GrannyCarol, in the old days the dog would not be running around loose. That is another side effect of PETA and the HSUS. The best way to keep a pit bull secured is usually by a chain. PETA and HSUS have tried and been successful in many areas to make it against the law to chain a dog. While this seems like a good idea to many they are not familiar with a pit bull that can go through a chain link fence faster than you can walk through the gate. A pit bull can be very well trained but without the owner in control that training is useless. No old time dog man ever let his pit bull run loose.

I used to put on obedience demonstrations with one of my pit bulls. Going into the ring I would remove the collar. I could stand in one spot and put the dog through an obstacle course by voice commands, hand signals, and by silent whistle. I could stop him anywhere and recall him anytime during the course, could make him run the course backwards. The dog would do whatever I wanted him to do. He would aslo kill another dog if given the chance. He could take a person to the ground before you could snap your fingers and would not hesitate to do so. If I wasn't there the dog would do as he wanted to do.

Years ago pit bulls were very seldon aggressive to humans. Most of the old time dog men would cull a dog immediately if they showed human aggression. I know one very well that did that. He hired a kid to help him around his dogs. One of his females grabbed the kid by the bottom of the pants leg when he walked by where it was chained.
The man walked into his house got his gun and immediately killed the dog. These people knew what such a dog was capable of doing. They put more value on a human than they did their favorite dog. I will have to admit I am not that way.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

My Grandfather field trialled Labradors. My mother bred, trained and showed dogs pretty much her whole life. I was raised to the standard of pretty much zero tolerance for human aggression in any dog. 

I had a lovely English Setter dog that was worked with since he was a pup, smart, well trained, would sit, stand, stay, come, etc with hand signals. He was being shown and doing well... one day I was careless and left my three year old son with him and he nipped my son. Although my son said that he bit the dog first, I had the dog put down and the dog's young son was neutered and sold as a pet (he was a very sweet dog, the father wasn't as stable as I liked to start with). English Setters ought to be a rock solid sweet family dog. I just figured if a dog was more than I could safely keep, who could I sell or give it to and not feel responsible?

I agree with your old time dog men, but then I'm an old time dog woman, I guess.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

GrannyCarol said:


> I agree with your old time dog men, but then I'm an old time dog woman, I guess.


Sure wish there were more like you around.


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## GrannyCarol (Mar 23, 2005)

I wish my mom was still around myself. She sure wasn't perfect, but she would say things like, "It's just as easy to love a good dog as a poor one." She taught me lots of things, some of them had to do with dogs, or livestock, like temperament is highly hereditary and not to make excuses in breeding stock, but also to go with your gut after you gathered all the information you could and that having excellence is more important than getting rid of a minor fault. 

I loved her very much, we enjoyed each other. She died many years ago now, I still miss her. She was a lady, but she also knew where to bang on her car battery to get the car to start! Maybe I didn't learn so much about housekeeping, but she did teach me how to ride a horse and train a dog. Oh dear, now I'm getting emotional.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Hazmat54 said:


> Fascinating thread. A great example of how evil slips and slides around until people think it is ok.


Evil is evil. It is not ok. But if that picture is being propagated as a lie, then that is wrong. Just look at it. Do dogs bit each other on the feet? In a dog fight, even between two siblings who are arguing over a toy, they bite each other's ears and necks or faces. They don't grab each other's legs and chew them. 
That picture is of a self mutilated dog. Look at all the dogs that come into the vet clinic with wounds inflicted from their own pack members over a toy or food or whatever. They don't come in with foot and leg wounds. They come in with auricular hematomas and neck wounds or face lacs. The simple fact is that dogs don't attack each others feet. And if anyone be it law enforcement, media, or peta are promoting that picture as a dog that was a victim of dog fighting then it is a lie. Because that is the picture of a self mutilated dog. How many dogs have you ever seen come into the clinic with bites on their legs and feet from another dog? None. It's done by themselves out of boredom or allergies.


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