# Bark collar/barking question??



## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

Our LGD---A 1 year old Great Pyr/Maremma cross--has been known to be a barker, but has done pretty well for us over the last few months or so not barking much and only when it was at something actually close to the property. Someone on here recommended one of the citronella spray anti-bark collars, which we got, for nights when he just decided to bark (and we have neighbors that don't appreciate it) so if we felt he was not barking due to a threat, we'd put the bark collar on him. It seemed to snuff any non-necessary barking, but he will still bark and let us know if there was something we needed to check out.

Now--he's figured out that if he barks for a couple minutes, the collar runs out of spray and he can bark all night long....And he has been. 

We are just not sure what to do next...we want him to be a guardian, but when the bored/restless barking starts, it's very loud and all night long. The neighbors have the habit of calling the sheriff if he goes very long and so, we really need to figure something out to help the LGD to do his job--but not the crazy, loud barking all night. Nothing has changed with his environment, diet, etc. 

He has a companion dog, an Akbash, that doesn't bark much at all as well, just as an FYU.

Thanks so much!


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## anita_fc (May 24, 2008)

FYI, I am a dog trainer. We have found that electronic remote collars are the best option for us. They can be used to correct so many problems with LGDs. The problem with graduating to an electronic BARK collar when you are running more than one dog is that it is more likely to trigger a dog fight. The remote collar gives you more control over the correction level and amount of correction.

We, too, have found that our Pyrs are noisier than our Akbash. :-( I love the Pyr personality, but man oh man. Those PSAs (public service announcements) really get old at 2 or 3am!

By the way - I have found that most dogs learn to bark the citronella reservoirs dry, given enough time.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Maybe another option would be to rehome the dog. It sounds like he is doing his job. Do you know for sure that there aren't coyotes howling , or some predator walking around setting him off? From my own personal experience the lgds I have seem to do more barking than fighting, but keep the flock protected well. For close, complaining neighbors you should consider an alternative guardian like a Llama or donkey.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

I think bark collars should be reserved for other breeds, not LGD. You should rehome the dog.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I agree.....you should find him a new home if he barks too much for you. Pyrs are known for barking.....a LOT. It is their guarding style. If you can't tolerate barking, then get another Anatolian. They do bark too, but not as much.


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## lexa (Mar 30, 2012)

If rehoming is not an option you cold try moving onto shock collar. You would have to shave off an area on his throat for prongs to touch his skin directly and keep checking the area daily to make sure there are no sores. If you decide to try it, make sure that you are there to observe when he starts barking. Shock collar worked for my neurotic poodle for a while but that she learned to bark in the way that did not triggered the collar. It worked for my cocker as well but the problem with him was that he would bark at his ball all the time and could go on for hours. My hubby thought that collar would "cure" him from this obsessive barking but he became scared of his ball instead. It took him couple days to regain the trust in that ball.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

If you decide to go with the el collar it means that you have to be outside with him. He barks three times, you praise him. He continues, you zap him.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

A bark collar will not work for a GP. It just won't. You would have to shave the neck and get a super-duper strong bark collar for it to even faze the dog. Plus GP are bred to bark to keep intruders away. It's cruel to try to stop them. It's like beating a duck for swimming.
Rehome the dog.


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## anita_fc (May 24, 2008)

Mekasmom, I respectfully disagree that e-collars are cruel when used to CONTROL barking in a LGD. I do agree, however, that rehoming the dog may be the better alternative depending on the OP's circumstances.

I first read about using an e-collar in the David Sims & Orysia Dawydiak book, _LIVESTOCK PROTECTION DOGS - SELECTION, CARE AND TRAINING_. They advised the careful and correct use of an e-collar to teach the dog when it is inappropriate to bark. I do not accept that "there might be something out there" because the dogs use a different bark when there is a real threat. There is an urgency that comes into their bark that you don't hear with PSA barking.

When one has a second dog that does not bark excessively, it actually makes it much easier to determine when a correction may be in order. When the Akbash is quiet, there is probably no legitimate reason for the Pyr/Maremma (pyremma or marenees?<g>) to be barking. Great Pyrenees are well known for slipping into 'public service announcement' mode where they 'roof-roof-roof' repeatedly. It is also more typical for YOUNG dogs to bark more just as they are coming of age (from 12 to 18 months). I think it's largely because they really haven't developed their self confidence yet, so they try to keep things further away by PSA-barking. If you teach them self-control at this age, you usually end up with a dog that will work its whole life without doing that excessive barking thing. (Until old-age sets in, that is; then all bets are off.)

They can be trained to REDUCE their barking, and it does not have to be a cruel process to do so. The goal is not to STOP their barking, but to reduce it to "what's necessary". This is why I recommend a remote trainer, instead of a straight bark collar. It allows the dog to signal a warning for "things in the night" but teaches them to stop after a few barks. 

It IS more work because you do have to supervise. I assumed that's not a big problem when a dog barks all night - few people can sleep through constant barking! ;-) You don't have to be outside with the dog, but you would need an unobstructed line-of-sight from the house to the pasture - a window works well, especially a 2nd story window. I often observe my dogs from an upstairs bedroom window since it gives me a much larger view.

I've successfully used e-collars on several Pyrs to moderate their barking to a more appropriate level. You do not have to use a super strong collar correction, just the level it takes to make the dog stop. Most collars have at least 6 levels so you can experiment with what level is effective for your own dog. Some will respond at the lowest level; some in the middle; I've never had one require the highest level. As for shaving hair, you only need to clip two small squares of fur on the under side of the dog's neck for the contacts to rest on. The collar needs to be fitted snugly so that it remains in place against the skin.

Depending on the size of your property, you can use a collar that has a one-half to one-mile range (from transmitter to collar). The beauty of the e-collar is that a correction can be delivered with no human in sight. There is never any unpleasant association with the owner. In other words, the dogs don't take it personally whatsoever; they associate the correction with what they were doing at the time. Whereas, physical corrections can make a dog become afraid of the person delivering a correction.

Most of the emotional response to e-collars comes from their early days (1960s) when they had only one strength: BROIL. Modern e-collars provide adjustable intensity corrections. They are far more humane than many of the physical corrections humans are known to use on dogs.

We've had both Pyrs and Akbash for 11 years, several of each. The Akbash are far quieter dogs, but we have trained our Pyrs to reduce their barking immensely. If you buy a model with a warning tone, you can give the tone right before the shock correction (we trainers call it the "stim", short for electrical stimulation). You could also use verbal "hush" commands the same way. When that is followed by the stim every single time, the dog eventually learns to quiet when he is warned.

I think it is far sadder to wash out a nice LGD for something that CAN be modified by training. But if the OPs property is not conducive to using this kind of collar, they may find it easier and cheaper to rehome the barker and obtain another Akbash (or other less barky breed). The remote collars run from $199 to more than $600. I have both the expensive kind (Tri-tronics) as well as a lower priced unit (Dogtra). 

All dogs bark, some more than others. I have three of the barkiest breeds known to mankind: Pyr, German Shepherd, and Shelties. 

Also, as a nod to fairness - I always try the stim levels on my own arm before I put it on a dog. I want to be reminded of just how that feels. It makes a person much more judicious about the use of "the button". Less likely to be abused that way.

Anita, dog trainer from Idaho


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## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the ideas and thoughts, everyone. 

I hate this situation, becuase WE don't mind the barking. We are fine with it as long as he deems it necessary.  

The Neighbors, do not agree. We have 20 acres, with a 20 acre parcel open field to the east of us, but to the west of us are 4 houses that line our property. There are coyotes that run down the south line of our property, which is why we got the LGD's in the first place. We also have a llama, but thought with coyotes close at last once per month, the dogs would be better.

The neighbors are calling the sheriff, threatening lawsuit (even thought LGDs fall under the right to farm act) they are just not happy. I don't want to be THAT neighbor, but we really love our LGD's too. 

Our Akbash doesn't bark hardly at all, so we may have to keep just her, but I hate the idea of re-homing him. He's such a great dog aside from the neighbors not liking him.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Honestly, if you have 20 acres and live in the country, I would ignore the neighbors. Let them call the sheriff. There are rarely ever any noise ordinances in the country.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I agree with mekasmom 100% It's not like you are in a subdivision. There are known predators in the area. Your neighbors should appreciate the fact that your dogs are alerting to them. As far as shocking a dog for barking just because YOU don't see a threat? That's wrong. You may not see that raccoon or fox slinking around in the dark, but the dog does. And don't decide it's nothing since only one dog barks. I have two ASDs but usually only one of them barks. If's a sort-of threat (raccoon, cat, etc), Isaac barks. If it's something bigger, like a dog or human, they both bark. But I can't scold Isaac for barking at what he sees as a threat.


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## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

mekasmom said:


> Honestly, if you have 20 acres and live in the country, I would ignore the neighbors. Let them call the sheriff. There are rarely ever any noise ordinances in the country.


This is absolutely what I want to do. The sheriff says the county has noise ordiance, but we are in rural city limits, and the city has no ordiance. And both the county and city have "right to farm" acts which specifically say, 'livestock working dogs' so I feel like we have the right to have our LGD's.

These neighbors are never ever happy. They complain about some spots of weeds on OUR side of the fence, which they decided to spray some of in the spring (that's trespassing in my book) and we've tried to be accomodating, but I don't think it will ever matter.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

Skipping all the answers. You got a breed of dog that does it's job by barking at night, sometimes all night, to keep predators away. Now you complain that dog barks? 

Rehome the dog. Please!

Okay, I've read the rest. It's the neighbors complaining. Neighbors that are not going to be happy no matter what you do. Do they complain if you mow too early or late or about animal smells? 

I think I would have to just ignore those neighbors. Find any ordinances and mail them to the neighbors. Include a nice message stating that as you are operating withing the law, you will consider it harassment if they continue calling the police on you for what you have a legal right to do. Don't let them get away with anything, IE spraying onto your property. 

Are they new neighbors? 

Good luck to you.


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## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm not the one complaining. It's the neighbor situation, which we've tried to appease, that I'm seeing if there are any other options. 

We love that he barks, because we know he's protecting the herd of sheep.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

I should have read the whole thing first. I admit it. I have read posts from people who get these dogs and then complain that they do exactly what the breed description says they will. 

I did go back and read the rest and added to my post. 

This type of neighbor cannot be appeased. The more you try to be the good neighbor, the more demanding they will be. 

Call me grumpy, but I would be tempted to do something really annoying and get a donkey or some peafowl or something nice and loud. LOL


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## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

DaniR1968 said:


> I should have read the whole thing first. I admit it. I have read posts from people who get these dogs and then complain that they do exactly what the breed description says they will.
> 
> I did go back and read the rest and added to my post.
> 
> ...


LOL! And yes, that thought has crossed my mind.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

The whole issue with the "right to farm" is going to come into play only if you are a real farm, not just a little hobby farm with a few animals for your own use. If you are filing taxes as a farm and making (or attempting to make) a profit, then you can get protection under the Right to Farm laws.


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## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

DaniR1968 said:


> Skipping all the answers. You got a breed of dog that does it's job by barking at night, sometimes all night, to keep predators away. Now you complain that dog barks?
> 
> Rehome the dog. Please!
> 
> ...


The thought has occured to me that they are harassing us when they call us at 10:30 to let us know that our dogs are barking...um, yes..we know.  There are 3-4 neighbors who complain, 1 is newer than us, one is the main complainer, the rest have been there longer than we have, but alas, they still moved in next to 40 acres of farm land.....not to mention the dairy that is south to all of us. Give me a break people.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I can't stand it when suburbanites move into the country next to farm land and then complain about farm animals. How silly and petty is that! Next thing you know, they will be complaining about animal poop. I have an idea. Buy them a nice gift. Get them a case of ear plugs and wish them a happy life.


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## JPiantedosi (Apr 23, 2012)

I wouldn't wory too much about it. If you have LGDs and are using them as legitimate farm dogs then I believe I would tell the neighbors to get bent. The sheriff basically is doing his job by coming out, but if the neighbors are threatening with a law suit, and you feel like you are protected by "Right To Farm", then Id tell them to saddle up, and see what happens. 

Id say fight it. Keep your dogs, and if the nieghbors don't like it, tough.

Jim


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

DaniR1968 said:


> I should have read the whole thing first. I admit it. I have read posts from people who get these dogs and then complain that they do exactly what the breed description says they will.
> 
> I did go back and read the rest and added to my post.
> 
> ...


I was thinking more like hogs
They might very well still call the police even if the barking is warranted.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

I like the idea of getting hogs. Tell them that since you are having to get rid of your livestock guardian dog, you were going to get some livestock that is more predator-proof and hogs fit that bill perfectly.


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

Just a couple will do it, and think of all the yummy home raised bacon and ham. I hear they root up weeds real well too.


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## anita_fc (May 24, 2008)

With the rest of the story, I too would be disinclined to accommodate the neighbors.

The chances are good that as your boy matures and gains more confidence, his barking might drop off naturally. I would worry more about the potential for harm to the dog - either by shooting or poison. 

City jerks complaining about the country life is one of my pet peeves, too.


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## PFS farmer (Sep 25, 2012)

I think there is a lot of great suggestions here, but this reminds me of a story that I fell out of a chair laughing and I probably shouldnt have.

Friend of mine had a pair of pug nose dogs. The female would bark at anything including her own shadow. They went to walmart and bought a barking shock collar. Put it on the dog and for the first time in my life I was attending a pug nosed dog RODEO! She barked and started bucking like a prized bull. She stopped, barked again, and we was back in action. This went on for a bit and she eventually figured it out and didnt bark anymore unless necessary. All I could see was this dog bucking like the best bronc horse ever and although couldnt hear it, but if Larry The Cable Guy could of been the announcer it would of made millions......Anyways......Just saying.


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## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

BarbadosSheep said:


> The whole issue with the "right to farm" is going to come into play only if you are a real farm, not just a little hobby farm with a few animals for your own use. If you are filing taxes as a farm and making (or attempting to make) a profit, then you can get protection under the Right to Farm laws.


We do file as a farm, have a registered flock of Dorpers that we are tying to make some money on. They are not just for our own use. Thank you for clarifying that point!


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## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

JPiantedosi said:


> I wouldn't wory too much about it. If you have LGDs and are using them as legitimate farm dogs then I believe I would tell the neighbors to get bent. The sheriff basically is doing his job by coming out, but if the neighbors are threatening with a law suit, and you feel like you are protected by "Right To Farm", then Id tell them to saddle up, and see what happens.
> 
> Id say fight it. Keep your dogs, and if the nieghbors don't like it, tough.
> 
> Jim


We have a good friend that is a lawyer, so we wouldn't have to go it alone......it may come to that. The deputy that has come out, has no clue what the the 'right to farm act' even means, so it could be interesting.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

If you decide to get hogs, make sure their pen is right up to the property line of the grouchy neighbors.


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## RoyalValley (Apr 29, 2009)

OH...another question....he's not been neutered yet, planning on that here soon. Could that be a problem with the barking??


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Nope. The breed is known for barking.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

RoyalValley said:


> OH...another question....he's not been neutered yet, planning on that here soon. Could that be a problem with the barking??


GPs bark. They bark to keep intruders away. It's their warning system, "Huge dog on duty! Stay away!" 
It's just wrong to get GPs then be upset that they bark. That is what they do as part of their protection system.
Ducks swim.
Kangaroos jump.
And GPs bark.
It's a fact of life.


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