# Learning from mistakes



## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I know I'm subjecting myself to a lot of criticism by writing about my mistakes on a public forum, so why do I feel compelled to do it? I guess writing to you all helps me think things through and also reassures other beginners that they aren't the only ones making dumb decisions. I also hope for useful tidbits of information that I haven't read or heard elsewhere. Please don't be too harsh.

I got bucked off for the first time yesterday and, now that I've had some time to think about it, I think I have determined all of the reasons why it happened. I'm hoping that my reaction to being bucked off will prevent it from happening again in th e near future or at least not for any of the same reasons.

I will start from the beginning......Zippy is 8 and not really a been there done that horse, but there are a lot of things I really love about her. She LIKES to be ridden, for one thing. She wants to learn and isn't buddy sour or barn sour. She is not spooky. Anyway...She is the horse I have been riding since last fall and the one I have had my lessons on, and I like her.

The problems started when a mustang gelding came to board at the stable. He thinks he is a stallion and so does Zippy. She never bonded with another horse before and she just HAD to fall for the bad boy. They are like Romeo and Juliet. They started breaking fences and running off together so the stable owner decided one or the other of them has to be stalled every night. It was so convenient to have her stalled when I arrived to ride her.....(insert some Jaws music here Da dum Da dum), that I asked the stable owner if she could just keep her in the stall until I got there!

So the weather got warmer and I started riding Zippy every day. My abs and thighs were really benefiting from all the trotting, and Zippy started getting muscles that ripped like a stallion's! (Da dum Da dum) and those muscles started increasing Zippy's metabolism and she started losing fat (dadum dadum dadum) so I said (DADUMDADUMDADUMDADUM) "zippy is getting too skinny, let's give her some (SCREAM!!!!!) GGRRAAIINN!!!!!!!:trollface

To be continued, after I milk my goats.


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## Horseyrider (Aug 8, 2010)

LOL!!! Well at least you have a sense of humor about it! 

How much grain? And stalled up? That can make for a lot of fizz; and when coupled with a relatively green horse, the results can be explosive. Unfortunately, we really need to expect behavior from our mares that is every bit as exemplary as we do from our stallions. Both are 'entire,' but both require solid manners and a deference to their rider.

I, for one, appreciate your candor. No doubt similar stoopid has happened to every single person here. They just might not admit it on a public forum.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

But Judy looked at me askance and said "No . . . . . I don't think that would be a very good idea. I don't know how she'll react to grain, since she's been stalled up." I said "Yeah - you're probably right about that," saddled Zippy up, and went to take her for a ride. 

I was standing in mud when I went to mount, and my thighs were a little sore. I had a hard time hefting myself up, and as I was slooooooowly making my way up I heard my friend yell "Stacey!! You're saddle's slipping, let go!" Startled, I let go and Zippy took off running toward the pasture in full gear.

About 700 feet away, Maco The Wannabe Stallion looked up from his hay. Their eyes met. Judy shouted "OMG NO! She's in full gear! Your reins are slipping, she's going to break your reins! The saddle's going to get caught on the electric fence!!" and she ran to the barn to get some grain.

I slowly walked toward Zippy and held out my hand and said "here, Zip!" She turned around and slowly walked up to me. Tears sprang out of my eyes. Judy arrived with a scoop full of grain and said "guess she didn't need this! She chose YOU over Maco! Wow - you two really have bonded. She deserves a treat for that."

We hand fed her about half a scoop of grain and gave her lots of loves and scratches. I asked "should I go ahead and ride her after that grain?" and Judy said "Well, you're doing so well with her. Go ahead, but let me hold her head while you get on." 

We had a wonderful, long ride. We rode past a snake and she didn't balk. We rode past horses rushing at her from other pastures and she continued forward. We trotted fast and slow - she tried to break into a canter but responded well to the half halt. When we got back to the barn, I was in high heaven. I said "I LOVE this horse! I've never met a better horse! She's the best horse in the world!!!"

da dum da dum


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## brody (Feb 19, 2009)

saddle slipping is NOT being bucked off  very important lesson in this one for you and anybody else new to riding  thanks for sharing


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

LOL brody the story continues

Sooooo the next day! My husband and I decided to go on our first ride together.

As we were saddling up, Judy said "You're RIGHT! She IS losing weight! Would you look at that?!" Yup. I think she does need some grain.

I said "Well - she did fine on it yesterday," and Judy said "She did - looks like she's one of those horses that doesn't get hot with grain. We'll start her on it tonight and then I'll turn her out in the morning."

So Lance and I went for our ride. Like I said - it was his first time out trail riding on his horse. He'd been in the arena on him but that's it. He was a little nervous. He only wanted to walk - no trotting for him, just slooooow plodding on his broke old gelding. Zippy, on the other hand, earned her name. Every day, she wants to go go go. She's not happy unless she's at least trotting. I kept her at a walk, though. We walked fast - up and back around Al and Lance, then up and back around Al and Lance. We got about 1/3 of the distance Zippy and I usually travel and Lance said "I'm about ready to go back. Lets end this on a good note." 

I tried to turn Zippy around but she was having none of that. I could have forced the issue but I said "what the heck." While Lance and Al waited, Zippy and I trotted up and down the crossroad a few times to get a little bit of her energy out, then we slowly walked back to the barn. She really hadn't got much of a ride in but Lance was so happy about going on his first trail ride and I didn't want to ruin it for him.

So . . . . we put her in a stall with 1/2 scoop grain, a little selenium, ground flax seed, and a tad bit of the supplement they've been giving the babies because, for some reason, Zippy has got a little butt-high recently and it looks like she might actually be growing for some reason.

I groomed her and put her in her stall and said "See ya tomorrow, Zippy!"


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

So 24 hours later! 

Lance said "I had so much fun yesterday. Let's go ride again today!" and I said "OK!"

So I went to the barn and Zippy was in her stall. I was like "What the heck? Didn't she get turned out?" and went to free longe her. She was kind of a turd while we were longeing. She kept turning when she wasn't supposed to turn, and no matter how long we went it seemed like she just didn't lose any energy. She wouldn't behave and wouldn't behave and I was exhausted and out of breath.

Judy came in the barn and said "What's going on?" and I said "I just can't get her to mind me!" So Judy said "let me do it." She lunged Zippy while I went and milked my goats. When I got back, Zip was standing there with her head down looking like a content old horse.

I hopped on and we went for a ride - but we didn't get halfway the distance we'd gone the previous day before AL started acting up! He wasn't acting up bad but Lance is very safety conscious and he said "let's just call it a day." 

Zippy was still feeling pretty energetic but we really didn't have a choice - didn't want Lance riding if he wasn't comfortable. I put Zippy in her stall with her grain.

And the NEXT day when I came back she was in her stall again! That was totally unplanned for - there was some sort of emergency or confusion or something at the stable and she just didn't get her turnout. I wasn't about to ride her. I was tired and she'd been stalled with grain again, and it was just a recipe for disaster.

So I cleaned some stalls and helped my friends desensitize their little colt for a while, and one of them noticed while we were chatting that every time I said the word "Ride" Zippy's ears would come forward! I was like "She knows what the word 'ride' means!" "Look - she wants to go for a ride soooooo bad, but Lance made me dinner and he's waiting for me. But the poor thing - she's got to be so full of energy. I wonder why she's not turned out? Oh . . . I shouldn't ride her . . . . but the poor thing, just look at her! She wants to ride!"

So (I'm hanging my head in shame) I took her to longe her. And she didn't behave, and didn't behave and didn't behave. My arms were tired and I rested a while and walked her around in the back barn then longed her again and she did OK . . not great really . . . I really wasn't sure because sometimes she does pretend like she's going to behave, then acts up. So I decided I would just get on her in the back barn and see. If she acted OK then maybe I'd just take her for a SHORT ride and then go have dinner with Lance.

So - I went to put my tired old leg in the stirrup, and my shoe was covered in mud. Ever so slooooooowly I tried to mount, and then she started to run off just like she'd done 2 days ago. I said to myself "I'm not letting her get away this time! I don't want her to learn a bad habit!" so I held on - and I was just kind of hanging with my shoulders over the top of the saddle trying to push myself up. And then she started crow hopping and I said "I'm NOT letting her throw me" so then she started bucking - both feet up in the air as high as they would go. Over and over and over.

and THAT is the recipe for a wreck!

When I screw up - I screw up GOOD. Count the mistakes!!!!!!


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

So anyway. It was a good thing we were in the back barn. Zippy is getting turned out in the arena now so she's separated from Maco but she can still get some exercise. She's not going to get grain anymore - they're going to give her more alfalfa and fat instead. We're going to have to start using a mounting block with someone at her head, and getting re-oriented to proper mounting, and I won't be riding her without supervision for a while.

Oh - but wait! I forgot to tell you! I did something right! After she bucked me off, I got right back on! I was scared to do it, but I did it. I rode her around the back barn and got her exercised. I'm pretty proud of that and it kind of makes up for some of my stupidity.

Oh -why did I confess this to you? Why, why, WHY?!


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## hatwoman022 (Aug 30, 2004)

For the mounting get on and get off, get on and get off. It takes a zillion times to get them to stand still. Having someone hold her head isnt a bad idea to start, but mostly it is practice, practice, practice. If she moves once you are on but not far, then back her into the SAME position you started from and start all over again. For my mule since I had no one to hold his head I *gasp* left him tied while I mounted. This isnt an exceedingly safe practice but for him and I it worked just fine. I no longer have to do that, he came to me from a 6 ft plus tall teenage boy who could just step into the saddle on my 16.2hh mule, so he had a bad habit of moving the second my foot hit the stirrup. No more, but it took a few weeks to get him out of it. 
As for the rest of your story, yep ya got bucked. But it wasnt for a lack of trying to do things right, you lunged her first, you want her to be turned out more and until you have them on a certain feed for a while you will never know how they will react. Put it bluntly crap happens ! We've all been thrown, just tuck and roll ! ! Ya know a horse person when you see them fall off an inanament object and you see them tuck and roll ! ! LOL 
Do NOT be hard on yourself, we've all been bucked off, we've all done things that at the time seemed ok but that in retrospect seem oh so dumb.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

I would not do the alfalfa hay if you can feed something else. It can really unbalance a young horse because of the calcium levels.

I would suggest just feeding some plain oats, not many. Also start her on wet beet pulp, which can be quite filling, adding weight WITHOUT making her stupid like other grain feeds can. The suggestion of plain oats, is to get her eating the wet beet pulp, liking it. Oats alone, don't have as many calories, as mixed feeds, corn based feeds. As horse likes eating her wet beet pulp, you might be able to just remove the oats. Then do slight increases of wet beet pulp, to make quantities larger and more filling, more food value.

Drawbacks with beet pulp, is it will ferment in heat, warm days if uneaten. It can take time to be ready to eat, if you use pellets instead of the shreds. Pelleted beet pulp is cheaper here, so that is what I use. You add water to either type of beet pulp, make it wet to feed. NEVER feed it dry, despite any reports, gossip, about others "never having any trouble with feeding it dry" to their horses, and yeah, that includes some Dr. who did a study about feeding it dry. 

I personally KNOW half a dozen horses who choked on the dry shreds, when owners got lazy, didn't want to do it wet. Shreds stick to moist throat, create a clog to choke horses. Same horses NEVER had a problem with wet beet pulp.

With the pelleted form expanding even MORE, I hate to think how badly clogged a horse might get if you fed pellets dry! 

Proportions are like 1-1 water and shreds, ready to eat in about 20 minutes. With water about 3parts to 1part for pellets, and a few hours to let them fully expand for eating. Hot water will speed up time soaking either type beet pulp, so you can feed faster. Stick your hand in the bucket, feel that all the beet pulp has no lumps, to know when the pelleted type is ready to serve.

Beet pulp expands GREATLY when ready to feed. You have to do a little experimenting, so you know how much dry you want, so it fluffs to the right amount for feeding. Not have too much prepared. In heat, humidity, horse should have an hour to eat it, then you remove any left and throw it away so it doesn't spoil and get eaten. Beet Pulp can have a "smell of it's own" but the fermented stuff has a different smell, stronger, so you can tell the difference.

I have been using wet beet pulp for about 20 years, have found it to be a great horse feed. Just does a lot of good stuff for the horse body, without making their brain fall out! A bit more trouble to prepare for feeding, but worth it to me. Great for young animals, growing animals.

Another suggestion, is to get some sort of mounting block to get on your horse with. You describe her being hard for you to mount, not able to easily swing into the saddle. Being young, she is not patient to begin with. Having you pull hard to get on, may unbalance her, so she does start moving, then continues, creating problems. Using the mounting block, will get you up higher to begin, which should make it easier to put foot in stirrup, lift up and swing over to get seated. Lots less work for YOU! Then continue to STAND STILL for a bit, good practice for her! You get seated comfortably, feet situated, reins adjusted, then TELL her to walk on. Teaching her patience, waiting for command, is going to help her be better acting in all things you do with her.

You might also want to get her a breast collar, Y shaped, to prevent saddle turning fully underneath her if it should slip or girth isn't tightened as needed. Saddle can still turn A LITTLE, get down on her side, but not go fully under her belly with you trapped in stirrups. I have had that happen to the kids, once each. They didn't check girth before mounting, or didn't RECHECK girth after 15 minutes of riding time, when it usually loosens as horse warms up. Then girth gets rechecked about every hour or two of riding. Girths fit just changes as horse is used for long times, needs to be retightened during the day. Breast collar saved both kids from getting hurt with saddle turning under them. Could only slip partially sideways, kid got feet down hanging off one side, slid off and stopped horse. Had to remove saddle, put pads back on, saddle on, so horse's hair was not all bent wrong-way, uncomfortable to horse. Kids didn't forget THAT lesson, did girth checks as needed from then on. They had a couple good old horses (bless them!), who were not freaked out with saddle slipping, stopped easily, waited for problem to be fixed.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

It's likely not the last time you'll get turfed but there's more lessons than just the grain. A turned saddle is very dangerous and cinched need to be checked a couple times before mounting. 

Grain may have contributed to your problem but your horse is buddy sour and that's going to be tougher to resolve but make sure your friend watches things closely for a while. 

Ultimately, if you learned something and walked away from the wreck, it wasn't a bad day. 
Your mare is getting away with little things like waking out before being mounted and your buddy needs to help you stop that immediately.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Oh, I longe and check the cinch three times before I get on, ride in the back barn then check again before riding outdoors, and use a breast collar. The breast collar has got looser with the weight loss so I have to remember to loop th straps around the rings once before buckling, and I forgot the day I got bucked. The saddle is tight enough, I just need to mount more quickly so we're not off balance for so long. I will use a block from now on. I wanted to be a big tough cowgirl and mount from the ground but, honestly, I need to get in a little better shape before I try to mount from the ground in mud wearing slippery boots.

After all of this I feel bad because I just hadn't realized how old I am. I thought I would be able to hold on and finish mounting when she started moving. In my head I have th body of a 20 year old but in reality I'm 44 and horses just make me feel like a kid.

I have lost twenty pounds and I need to lose at least another twenty, and I guess just keep riding and get in better shape. I am afraid all the riding has made her into too much horse for me. Now I'm afraid of her and can't get on her again until I'm over that because she will sense it and take advantage.

She is just such a great horse and it did take several days in a row of screwups before she finally exploded, so I think she and I can do alright. Right? 

I was wondering about one of those mounting stirrups. Has anybody used one? I want to be able to mount from the ground if I get thrown on the trail.

Thanks for not taking th opportunity to tear me up for sharing. I need more support now that my friend's daughter isn't available. My friend is a wealth of knowledge on ground work etc but her years of riding are over and her daughter had been the one doing all the riding and finishing.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Thanks for all the advice on feeds and mounting. I wonder if my friend has ever fed beet pulp. I will have to suggest it. How young of horses have problems with calcium imbalances on alfalfa?


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

Growing young horses get Epiphisitus, which is tightening of the tendons, leading to a very upright ankle. At times you can just remove the Alfalfa, feed them the WORST hay, first cutting grass types, trying to regain the mineral balance in the body, have pasterns return to normal. Other times the horse needs surgery to relieve the tightness.

Alfalfa is much too rich for horses, though a lot of resource folks recommend it. We have seen way too many problems with it, young horses, pregnant mares, to use it straight. Even a heavy percentage of Alfalfa in mixed hay, can cause problems. The higher calcium in it also can be a problem in causing horses to pee A LOT to remove the extra nutrients they can't use in their body. Can be hard on the kidneys over time.

Mounting a horse from the ground is "old-fashioned" thinking of your athletic prowess. It is actually hard on the HORSE, being pulled sideways, bracing legs to hold you up. Your getting a mounting block is easier on horse AND you. Older horses can show uneven shoulders from that years of mounting pressure.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

At age 8 are they at risk of epiphisitis still? Officially - she should be done growing. She's not done, though - she really started having a growth spurt!

It's definitely easier not to mount from the ground and if it's easier on the horse, I don't have to let the difficulty I have hurt my pride. I think I need to find one of those mounting stirrups, though - somehow have it with me on trail rides just in case.

Also - my friend showed me how to longe a horse without expending so much energy. It's not good if I get pooped out before the horse is done longeing. I haven't tried it yet but it's all in the way you point your shoulders. So if I can do it right, we will have a lot more success.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

You need to get horse under control, standing and waiting until TOLD to move out.

Sorry, but at this point, the "mounting stirrup" is going to cause you grief, maybe get you hurt. Horse does not have the idea of STAND STILL REGARDLESS of what rider is doing. Then you have to deal with stirrup after mounted, get it where it needs to be for RIDING. You and horse are NOT READY yet for adding things to the mounting process.

Hate to say it, but this lunging horse is only making her MORE FIT, so she can argue longer when you get on. Maybe a program of exercises to warm her up, get her obedient to the bridle, for 20-30 minutes or so,THEN go out trail riding. You work together, but in a controlled place.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Yeah she is getting fitter a lot faster than I am improving. That is for sure.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I'm absolutely shocked that your mentor has not taught you to check the fit of your tack every time you use it. 

I'm not a huge fan of lunging a mature horse day after day and really don't feel there is any benefit nor do I feel it replaces good old fashioned training. Others may disagree. 

I'm not sure why you would need a second stirrup but in my opinion it will not prevent heaving on the saddle and if you're riding trails, you should be able to mount your horse by training it to stand and situating the horse in a low spot.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

wr -did you not see my post about checking the fit of my tack every single time I use it? ONE time I forgot to loop the breast collar and that had absolutely nothing to do with my mentor.

As far as longeing the horse before I ride her - it's to make sure she's listening to me. I've never had a problem riding her after I did it correctly and waited until she was responding correctly. I've only had problems with her if I haven't longed her correctly prior to riding her. The longeing IS creating a much more fit horse, though, and now she's getting to be too much horse for me. I don't know how else I can make sure I have her full attention before I take her out. Someone mentioned doing some exercises with her and I'm willing to do whatever needs to be done, but I don't know what exercises those would be as they're not things the trainer I was working with taught me about and they're not things my mentor does.

I'm open to all suggestions. I don't want to have to stop riding Zippy but I will have to if I can't figure this out. I don't want to have to buy another horse, either, and I'm not going to find a free lease on a perfectly well-behaved been there done that beginner safe horse. I have to take what I can get.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

Getting turn out will go a long way in making her behave better. A horse cooped up with little or no exercise and with grain on top of it is not a good combination.

This is not to sound harsh but I think some of her behavior is because you let her get away with things. She wants to go and you get tired of arguing so let her. You cater to her so she doesn't get upset or because you are afraid and she gets worse for it. The same thing is going to happen with the horse your husband rides. He acted up a bit and you turned back. What did the horse learn? Act up and the ride is over. Without meaning to, the horses are being trained to act up or act out.

For now go back to riding in the arena to get your confidence back up. Never!!!! stop and put a horse up after misbehavior. Even if you get off, lunge and/or tie the horse up for a while. That way the horse learns that misbehavior does not get them put back out or in the stall with lovely food.

Use a mounting block! I mount my (short) horses from my trailer or a picnic table or whatever is available where we ride. If I have to get off on the trail, I find a log or bank to get back on. It is so much easier on my back and knees not to mention how much easier it is on their backs.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Ok- here I go right off the deep end. 

A horse that bucks so often may not be the horse for you. There are plenty of horses who don't do that. The fact that you were so happy when she did not misbehave is an indication that this is what you really want in a horse. 

I can remember trying a new saddle on a trail ride and being unable to keep it slipping back on a steep trail. So at about 5 or 6 hundred feet up a shale slope, I was forced to get off my horse to move up the saddle. The trail was all of 4 feet wide and when I dismounted on the wrong side because there was no purchase on the correct side, I slipped on the loose rocks and ended under my horse. She just stood there the whole time while I completed the trip underneath her belly, hung on to the tack to inch my way back under her neck to the cliff side, loosen the girth and reposition the saddle and tighten the girth. Then I climbed the cliff a bit to get the room to mount again and get up the rest of the thousand foot climb.

Now that is a horse to be grateful you have. Not one that allows you not to get bucked off. And there are those good horses out there. 

My advice is to find one, even if it is 15 or 16 years old and start enjoying yourself.

It's not like I don't have my gimpy joints because I kept a horse that I knew would buck when upset but I just let it roll because I did not want to go through the trouble of selling her and getting a more suitable one. I knew better. I knew that one day I would get distracted and she would react and I would get bucked off. But despite this, I did not follow my own advice. And have paid for it in pain for decades. 

Sorry to be throwing in a downer but there are certain reactions in a horse that are not worth the risk.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

fffarmergirl said:


> wr -did you not see my post about checking the fit of my tack every single time I use it? ONE time I forgot to loop the breast collar and that had absolutely nothing to do with my mentor.
> 
> As far as longeing the horse before I ride her - it's to make sure she's listening to me. I've never had a problem riding her after I did it correctly and waited until she was responding correctly. I've only had problems with her if I haven't longed her correctly prior to riding her. The longeing IS creating a much more fit horse, though, and now she's getting to be too much horse for me. I don't know how else I can make sure I have her full attention before I take her out. Someone mentioned doing some exercises with her and I'm willing to do whatever needs to be done, but I don't know what exercises those would be as they're not things the trainer I was working with taught me about and they're not things my mentor does.
> 
> I'm open to all suggestions. I don't want to have to stop riding Zippy but I will have to if I can't figure this out. I don't want to have to buy another horse, either, and I'm not going to find a free lease on a perfectly well-behaved been there done that beginner safe horse. I have to take what I can get.


Quite honestly, I don't feel you want input from anyone and I think I'll refrain from further advice and allow you and your mentor to figure things out.


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## hatwoman022 (Aug 30, 2004)

Wr- that seems hard, as a forum moderator I think you should be setting an example about how we should interact with each other and not being rude.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

hatwoman022 said:


> Wr- that seems hard, as a forum moderator I think you should be setting an example about how we should interact with each other and not being rude.


Wr was not remotely rude. She was matter of fact and polite. She disagrees with what appears to be a potentially dangerous situation and said she would refrain from further comment.
Your post was way out of line.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Perhaps you should read further into the situation before making a judgement. 

I won't comment any longer either.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I don't feel I was hard, insulting it unkind. I offered suggestions based on my concerns for the safety of the horse and rider, which were rejected. Like so many old school mentors, I chose to not impose my opinions or beliefs on someone who disagrees with them. 

In my opinion, I was courteous and respectful enough to stand down, keep my opinions to myself and defer to the OP's mentor, who is there is there and better able to assess the situation than someone diagnosing over the internet.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

It sounds like among other things, your saddle does not fit properly. You do not use a breast collar to hold a saddle in place while mounting or riding on flat land. If your saddle is slipping that badly it does not fit. It may be pinching the horse if you have to cinch it as tightly as you are describing. 

I'm not sure how much time you horse has in a pasture or pen. It sounds like she does not get enough exercise and is getting too much grain. If she is getting her own way when lunging or anything else you are doing with her, you are training her to expect to be in charge. This is going to only get worse if you don't correct it.


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## goodhors (Sep 6, 2011)

I had about decided as WR, not to participate here anymore. OP is giving us more information each time, but not to improving her situation. Breast collar was ineffective because THAT DAY, it was not fitted right. Tack has to be fitted correctly EACH ride. Sometimes adjusted DURING the ride.

Mentor is somewhat helpful, but sure doesn't have time to follow her around and correct things as they happen. Not a rider, lost her other Mentor that did ride.

Maybe having LESSONS would help. Take horse and go to a Trainer Barn for a month or so, to improve horse and herself in riding that horse, would be a good solution. There needs to be some kind of consistency in feeding, handling, riding process, before progress can be made. Her handling of horse may be wrong, since she is not reading it well or maybe responds the wrong way. Trainer on hand WATCHING, can catch these kinds of problems, help her correct them and move on. 

Trainer might also look at saddle fit, see if it is usable or not on this horse. Worrying about saddle fit is a fairly new thing in Western, where we bought saddles to fit OUR rear, came in Full QH or Semi QH bars. Then you picked the trim on saddle and READY to ride!

We can analyze her posts to pieces, make suggestions, but we are NOT THERE to see the process or changes needed. We are giving GENERALIZED information or critiques that "usually" work on someone's horse. OP may not be able to do what is needed, which is why a trainer or getting lessons can improve. EVERYONE can get improved with some lessons, other eyes seeing how you use yourself, how horse behaves, to reach a better answer to the situation you are in.

You can't FIX things long distance. She needs to find a Trainer for horse and her, pay for the help and THEN make her choices about keeping horse or getting another.

This is turning into a trainwreck with everyone chiming in, each little bit different advice. I am with WR on this one, just back away and let it go, we have said what we thought helpful. WR wasn't rude, just SAYING why she wouldn't add any more, it isn't going to help OP. Time for OP to Cowboy Up, make her choices and get on with it. ALWAYS some reasons things happen, you deal with it or walk away.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

It seems that this conversation is going to go on without the op. And that is ok. I personally have tried making an unsuitable horse do for me a few times- right up to the point the horse forced me to give up my "I can work through this" fantasy through physical injury.

I have long since come to the conclusion that some things will never be a good fit with the way I wanted to ride, no matter how many other things are appealing. No amount of a beautiful and athletic prospect at a bargain price will make up for a lifelong physical injury.

But I would not have seen that when my eyes were full of stars either. I wish I had understood that what I really wanted was a good, safe ride with a willing companion and respected that instead of falling in love with the beautiful "project" whose temperament was never going to be appropriate no matter how well trained. 

She owns her husband's horse and the filly. There is a solution for much of the issue right there. She could use her husband's horse for lessons so when the filly, who has yet to show whether she will be a good match or not, needs work, there will be the skills in place to train her. It is not a perfect solution as she can not ride with her husband but she can ride and train his horse some times and walk the filly with him when he rides at his preferred walk.
And best of all, take lessons.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Molly I'm pretty sure my saddle fits. I could have somebody else check it to be sure but it has never slipped during riding. I'm not tightening it up any tighter than anybody else tightens a cinch - I check it three times because I have been taught that you never get on a horse without checking the cinch three times. It's just a safety measure. My hand can fit between the girth and her belly after it's tightened. I use a breast collar just as another safety measure. The one time when my saddle slipped it only slipped a little and it was my fault because I mounted much too slowly. My friend yelled "your saddle is slipping" but I think maybe she overreacted. I made the mistake of mounting slowly more than once and in hindsight I realize that's uncomfortable for Zippy. All saddles move a little - and mounting incorrectly makes them move more but I don't think the saddle is loose .I saw a checklist somewhere listing how to check for fit and, from what I could tell, it fits (checking for dry spots under the saddle blanket after she sweats etc.) 

Zippy doesn't buck "a lot". She bucked repeatedly the one time and I'm afraid that she will buck again if I don't change the way I'm doing things. If I didn't know I needed to do things differently I wouldn't have started this thread.

The horse is definitely not getting enough exercise and she was definitely getting too much grain. Now she's not getting grain and I'm not even going to think of getting on her until she gets more exercise.

Dani I agree I have been catering to her and I need to stop. I have a hard time determining when I'm catering and when I'm trying to meet her needs. Like - when she seems to have excessive energy, I know I need to stay in control but I also feel like I should let her get some of the energy out. So I have to find a way to get the energy out while making it my idea? I have a hard time knowing where the line is and I do think I'm letting her get away with too much.

When Al was acting up, we taught him that if you go back to the barn you get worked. My friend longed him until he was good and sweaty. A trail ride would have been much more pleasant for him. And he's a good example of something I have been thinking about - it seems to me that even a very well trained older horse acts up if you let them get away with it.

Does anybody else besides wr feel like we're overdoing the longeing? I guess I could have brought Al out to the arena and rode him around instead of longeing. I can't do that with Zippy when she's not obeying me though - I really don't feel safe getting on her until she's obeying 100%.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I DO need lessons. I shouldn't be going off riding by myself anymore. While I trust that my friend does know more about horses than anybody else I know, she's not a rider. She's disabled and has been for many years and, even when she did ride, she much preferred ground work. Plus - she's busy. She taught 4-H kids for many years, though, and her kids showed horses all their lives. 

I want to ride. There are so many boarders over at the stable and none of them actually ride. They just take care of pet horses. 

I don't know where on earth I could get lessons - and getting another horse at this time is out of the question. If I bought another horse, I couldn't afford to board them. I'd have to bring them to my house and that would be a disaster waiting to happen.

When I disappear from conversations for a while, by the way, it's because I'm a nurse and I'm often on call. Last night I was out all night taking care of a hospice patient.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

fffarmergirl said:


> Zippy doesn't buck "a lot". She bucked repeatedly the one time and I'm afraid that she will buck again if I don't change the way I'm doing things.
> 
> Does anybody else besides wr feel like we're overdoing the longeing? I guess I could have brought Al out to the arena and rode him around instead of longeing. I can't do that with Zippy when she's not obeying me though - I really don't feel safe getting on her until she's obeying 100%.


Longing can have lots of reasons- it can get a cold backed horse to relax. It can be used to focus a horse to listen to you. It can allow a horse to let off some steam, although that is not a real good use. It can allow a rider to visually check the horse's action.

But, if a horse is full of nervous energy, it will not wear them down in a few minutes. A horse that is always full of anxious movement needs steady slow and controlled work to learn to go that way. Not to practice running around more anxiously. In otherwords, longe with the goal of focusing the brain and don't allow a period of recess thinking. She needs to learn self discipline and that comes from slow and steady work.

I thought she had bucked more than one time but even that once was enough to let you know it's there. And you need to know how to stop it from happening before she even knows she's going there.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

wr said:


> I don't feel I was hard, insulting it unkind. I offered suggestions based on my concerns for the safety of the horse and rider, which were rejected. Like so many old school mentors, I chose to not impose my opinions or beliefs on someone who disagrees with them.
> 
> In my opinion, I was courteous and respectful enough to stand down, keep my opinions to myself and defer to the OP's mentor, who is there is there and better able to assess the situation than someone diagnosing over the internet.


What suggestions did I reject? I told you the reasoning behind the longeing and I also admitted that I think the longeing is making the horse too fit and then I said that somebody else had mentioned that there were other exercises I could do instead of longeing, but I don't know what those exercises are.

So basically I was saying "this is why we're doing what we're doing but I admit it doesn't seem to be working out." 

The only thing I rejected was your assumption that my mistakes are due to the negligence of my next door neighbor, who is mentoring me basically for free.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

where I want to said:


> Longing can have lots of reasons- it can get a cold backed horse to relax. It can be used to focus a horse to listen to you. It can allow a horse to let off some steam, although that is not a real good use. It can allow a rider to visually check the horse's action.
> 
> But, if a horse is full of nervous energy, it will not wear them down in a few minutes. A horse that is always full of anxious movement needs steady slow and controlled work to learn to go that way. Not to practice running around more anxiously. In otherwords, longe with the goal of focusing the brain and don't allow a period of recess thinking. She needs to learn self discipline and that comes from slow and steady work.
> 
> I thought she had bucked more than one time but even that once was enough to let you know it's there. And you need to know how to stop it from happening before she even knows she's going there.


Thank you. What I'm hearing you saying is that, rather than trying to poop her out I should just longe her long enough to make sure she's paying attention and then when I ride her I should make her walk or trot slowly. Right? 

We quit the grain days ago - we still have the stall to deal with. She has become an escape artist. She's not allowed to stay the night outside with the rest of the horses anymore and I don't really have a say in that. I'm not riding her again until that situation gets figured out.

I hope she will be a good horse for me again after we fix all of this. She was great before.


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## DaniR1968 (May 24, 2008)

Exactly, don't lunge to tire her out but rather to get her paying attention to you. I like to do regular changes of direction and speed when I have a horse that isn't listening to me very well. That is usually a new to me or young horse. It's not something I do on a regular basis.

As for the barn, I have read some of your past posts and honestly this does not sound like a great fit for the horse. Turn out is not something I would ever compromise on. I could be wrong but think I recall you also having limited to no turnout for your filly at one point. Seriously, not something I would allow. She is your horse and you should have more say about what goes on with her. You might consider looking for another barn. Who knows, you might find a mentor who rides and will ride out with you.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

fffarmergirl said:


> Thank you. What I'm hearing you saying is that, rather than trying to poop her out I should just longe her long enough to make sure she's paying attention and then when I ride her I should make her walk or trot slowly. Right?
> 
> We quit the grain days ago - we still have the stall to deal with. She has become an escape artist. She's not allowed to stay the night outside with the rest of the horses anymore and I don't really have a say in that. I'm not riding her again until that situation gets figured out.
> 
> .


Yes but even more to the point, longe her from the get go with the idea of getting her to relax as she goes and the length of time she gets longed is determined by how long it is until she relaxes. You can tell she is relaxing when her head lowers and her gait steadies. Her nose is no longer pinched tight and she gets soft in her carriage. 
Eventually, when she understands what you want and you prove reliable to her, she will comes faster to the point where you can change gaits and stop and turn without her getting excited. The goal is to teach what you want while longeing and that is done with you directing as quietly and consistantly as you can.


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## AugustRED (Apr 18, 2010)

Groundwork is an excellent way to make sure the horse is paying attention before you step into the saddle & girth can be tightened several times during the course of exercises. When I do groundwork before a ride it isn't to wear the horse out for the very reason you mentioned - they just end up more fit! Instead of running circles the goal should be to ask them to move different body parts which requires them to pay attention & thereby show respect. I personally employ Clinton Anderson's techniques, many of which you can find simply by searching on Youtube or watching his show online. My experience has been that with consistency they require less and less work before a ride because they get very quick about figuring out that obeying means less work - be a nut & we'll be doing this until you can be quiet & attentive - sometimes it's two minutes, sometimes it's an hour. But when I'm smart I don't get on until they are showing me their brain is engaged, the ride always goes better...

One thing I've learned (or rather am learning, I'm still young & bouncy but want to stay that way for as long as possible) is it's not always best to just tough things out or just climb back on. Definitely don't put them away but find a safe way to deal with it which for me normally means at least some groundwork before I get back on. In your case it sounds like the bucking was probably at least somewhat fear related - she shouldn't have moved off but when she did the sensation was uncomfortable/unfamiliar so she decided crow hopping would get rid of it instead it just scared her more and so on. I'd be inclined towards some desensitizing - you'd be shocked how many "broke" horses freak out when you slap the saddle or flop the fenders, it's just something they aren't used to. Silly horses ...

You're making a lot of the same mistakes we've all made - as long as you are truly working to build your knowledge you're on the right track. Never stop learning that's the key!


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Totally different take on lunging, and it makes sense. Rather than forcing their respect, you get them to relax. Zippy really needs to relax. That would be a lot more pleasant for me too.

I have thought about going to a different barn. I love Judy and think she is a great person and I have learned so much from her. We just have completely different goals. Honestly, she is a breeder. She breeds nice quarter horses and a lot of her babies go on to be shown. I thought showing would be a fun thing to do but now that I'm getting to know a little about the horse world and I have heard how nasty some show people can b I'm not sure it will be fun.

Her horses are geared more toward western pleasure and that does not even look fun for me. I am more than willing to help her show her horses in exchange for knowledge and the availability of horses to trail ride, lessons, etc hut I'm positive showing won't be my cuppa tea. If I can't ride what is the point of being into horses at all? If zippy can't be turned out I can't ride her. 

I don't want to lose Judy as a friend. Talk about a homesteader with years of experience......She is an absolute wealth of knowledge and we are growing our veggies cooperatively, milking goats together etc. This would be a very difficult decision to make. That is why I so badly want to find a way to make this work out.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Thank you very much for your post augustred.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Breeders don't always make good trainers and not coaches, trainers and mentors don't always mesh with someone.

You get defensive every time I mention your mentors shortcomings but she can be a great friend, breed great horses and simply not capable of relating information in a way that makes sense to you and judging by many of your comments and responses, I think this is a big part of your problem. 

The horse she helped you pick is not ideal but I think she's also reluctant to be firm with a friend. I remember when you talked about this horse and you were determined this was the one and she may have con led the same thing I did. You were intending to get a horse ASAP and it might be easier to approve based on potential rather than argue. 

You have also repeatedly said that you don't understand industry terminology and simply forge ahead. Perhaps she reads that as you not wanting a surplus of input. 

Regardless if the reason, you, your horse and your mentor are not all on the same page. 

As to your comment that your saddle fits well. Are you sure and has anyone taught you how to fit a saddle?


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Not only do I not understand industry terminology, I'm a very verbal and blunt person and my friend communicates in a much more subtle manner. So she might have told me some really important stuff and I didn't hear what she was saying. Sometimes you will say something to me, assuming she hadn't already told me, when she did tell me but I didn't get it. Then when you say it, it clicks that she was trying to tell me the same thing and I didn't pick up on it.

So we are totally not on the same page! As far as the saddle fit.......I've had both my friend and her daughter help me saddle the horse. I had six very nice saddles given to me and my friend picked which one to use. Neither person said it didn't fit.....I read things about how to tell but I, myself, most likely would not notice if it didn't fit. It doesn't move around when I'm riding. It doesn't make any noise. When I take it off the horse's back doesn't have any dry spots. . . . It isn't the saddle that zippy is wearing in the picture from the previous thread.

I assume all the questions about saddle fit mean the type of behaviour she is showing is often due to poor fit. I would imagine Judy or Sarah would have noticed any problems but Is there anything simple enough for me to do to check?

I'm no expert but my gut is telling me almost all the problems are from my terrible mounting, the grain, the stall, and me letting her get away with stuff. To me it seems like she does fine on the trail. She wants to go but walks when I tell her to walk, trots as fast or slow as I tell her to, and has never cantered unless I told her to and that was only when Sarah was there. That being said, I have been afraid she might not obey me and wr you once told me that you have to understand hints with horses because once they get past hinting it is too late.

So I guess what I need to know is, where is the line between catering to her and just relaxing and enjoying the ride while remaining in control. I need to know how to read what she needs in order to be happy and healthy and give it to her without her demanding it. That is something I will only learn from riding. Maybe I will just go ride Al a lot more and that will help with zippy.

I don't want to give zippy up and I don't want to have to switch barns. I want to find out what I have to do to make it work. She seems to me to be pretty good considering her age and the mistakes I have made with her.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

You might watch Monty Roberts, Buck Brannaman, Clinton Anderson or some of the other professional trainers video's. Turn the sound off and just watch how the trainer handles the horse. It might help you to see how some very competent people work with horses. There is a you tube video "dancing mare" that is a dressage horse too. Watch how quiet her rider is. Compare these to what you are seeing at your barn. You are not looking for the same level of competence, that won't happen, but you should see the quiet, positive handling of horses. 

My theory is that if you get one good idea from a book or tape, or it reminds you to try something you forgot, it's worthwhile. I don't subscribe to the following _____, or that you become a trainer by watching tapes or reading books or going to clinics, it's something that you learn over years of doing something you have a talent for and interest in.

I don't think there should be any reason to lunge a trained horse on a regular basis if you are riding regularly, unless you are working on a problem or training toward a specific goal. I haven't ridden my mare this year and when I do I will simply saddle her and ride. I personally do not like to lunge a horse, I think it is boring and I would guess most horses would agree. Who likes to go in circles for no reason? Having a specific training goal is different.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

And I do feel the need to defend my friend because she doesn't owe me anything. Yes she has shortcomings but so do I and it would be wrong of me to allow my mistakes to reflect poorly on her. She is not on this forum and can't defend herself and, while I'm assuming some people on here are good trainers, Judy and Sarah are the people available to me in real life. She makes her entire living as a professional horse person so obviously she knows infinitely more than I do, and she is a licensed ferrier and knows all the local horse people. I need her.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Thanks Molly.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I said I don't think the saddle fits because you use a tight breast collar to keep it in place. If the saddle fits, you wouldn't need it. We live in the mountains and the only time we use breast collars is if we are riding in some pretty rough country. I have a bad back and can't do it anymore, but my DH can mount on his saddle that fits his horse well without cinching it at all--I know that because he was showing 4H kids how a good saddle should fit a horse. We are very fussy about saddles quality and fit, and both do make a difference.

If you can find a bareback saddle, the kind they use in rodeos (basically a leather strap on a kind of a tree, with a handle and a girth) and ride with it it will help your balance and it is safe. Do not use a bareback pad, no matter how well recommended they are. They can turn under the horse if you loose your balance.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Nobody is telling you to throw your friend under the bus and I don't think she is incompetent. 

I do think she is skilled and like most mentors (myself included) and when she realizes you're not listening, she shuts down so you're only getting answers to questions now rather than a mentor. I don't intend to sound mean but if someone is not listening, there is no point in doing much more talking. 

You tell us what you want and make it clear that you don't want to change barns or mentor , which gives you two choices. Start listening to your mentor and maybe sort this mess out or keep doing what you've been doing and end up with a truly spoiled horse and possibly significant injuries. 

I always find your threads frustrating because you do ignore solid advice because a single thing catches your attention. Longing makes sense to you right now but it's not going to stop her from stepping out when you're mounting and it may or may not resolve the bucking. 

This mare needs significant training and you need to understand that as long as you're worried about making her happy instead of mannered, you are trying to make a buddy not a horse and horses don't respect buddies.


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## dizzy (Jun 25, 2013)

Do you have a round pen available to you? If so, and you're interested, I can PM you some exercises that you can do that will help a ton! I used to have to lunge Misty B4 riding her because she was so hot (she's an Arab), but I no longer need to do that-and it's not because she's calmed down! 

And I prefer to give my ideas via pm because if it's not the same way someone else does their work, then you end up having people getting into a fight on the "correct" way to work-which IMO, accomplishes nothing.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Yes - Dizzy, I would be very happy if you PMd me some exercises. Thank you very much!


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Molly, I probably do not need the breast collar. I will have to look into a bareback saddle and maybe try it on a calmer horse to get my balance. I have been practicing riding without my feet in the stirrups and that has helped me learn how to sit.

The way we lunge came from Clinton Anderson I think. We free lunge the horse until she pays attention to us and then we say "whoa" and drop the lunge whip. If she turns and faces us and follows us when we back away from her, lunging is over and we go for a ride. If not we lunge some more.

I don't know if you would consider Zippy a well trained horse. I do know that, at this point in time, I would not feel safe getting on her without lunging her first. There have been times that we've noticed a problem during lunging that I'd rather not find out about on the trail. Plus lunging helps with making sure she's cinched up good. Also - we're just coming out of winter. We got snow this morning. So most horses have been sitting for months. I only started riding again 2-3 weeks ago, though we went on a few rides during the winter.

I had a membership to Giddup Flix for a while - it's like netflix but nothing except horse videos. I might renew that. Watching with the sound off would probably teach me a lot.


WR there is never a time I'm not listening. A lot of times I'm listening and it sounds like you are speaking another language and maybe I miss a lot of what you're saying but that doesn't mean I'm not listening. I wouldn't come on here asking questions and sharing my experiences and risking being torn to sh reds with criticism unless I really, truly am hoping for some good advice. I ALWAYS listen to Judy but half the time my mind is going "huuuuuuuuhhhhh?"

I don't want a spoiled horse or significant injuries, that's why I am here. There are just certain things you say that make sense to you and I don't understand because I've only been with horses for 18 months and about 12 months of those were winter.

I am absolutely positively not going to take Zippy on any rides until we solve the mounting issue (as well as the turnout issue) and I am hoping the bucking was only associated with the mounting problems. 

As far as making her happy - I realize she needs discipline and I do have a hard time disciplining horses as well as children. I love the happy sounds she has recently started making on rides. I DO want her to be happy! If I didn't care about her feelings, why would I want to ride her? Riding a bicycle would be a heck of a lot less hassle! BUT - I know that horses, as well as children, have to have structure and discipline and clear boundaries in order to be happy, because they don't feel safe if they don't have clear rules and a leader. I just have to learn where the line is. That's something you're not going to be able to describe online, I will have to have somebody experienced with me on trail rides.

Maybe I can just pay someone to ride with me.

Thanks, everybody. Sorry for frustrating you.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

You know that is a thought- there is a woman here who goes to the owner's location for lessons. She will accompany people on trail rides to help if they need it. Maybe there is someone there?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I think longing has become your emotional safety net and you're really having a tough time getting past the fact that it's not intended to replace training. 

If you're going, 'huh,' you need to ask for clarification because the end result is still the same. 

I'm a pretty soft touch with kids too but I was their mother, not their buddy so they were expected to follow rules for safety. Mine wanted to run for the store before I had everybody out of the car and my keys in hand. I sure didn't let them run off and I didn't really care what they preferred. I also didn't allow them to run off in a mall, just because they had go go personalities. 

My horse work and some days they work very hard. Sometimes I need another gear and other days, the work is painfully slow but in either case, they will meet my expectations and I will not compromise mine. That's what makes safe, sane, well adjusted horses. 

I might have missed one or two but in all the years I've dealt with horses, other than retired to babysitters, I've never seen a safe, sane buddy.


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## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

Zippy will not be relaxed and enjoy her work until you are so if that means you need to step back and ride Al until you are confident and relaxed then that's what you need to do. In the meantime do groundwork with Zippy which doesn't mean running her in mindless circles. Set up obstacles and lead her through them, ask her to back, ask her to unlock her hindquarters, ask her to give her head and to submit to pressure in general. Once you have all that going good then get on her and ask her to do the same things. Once both of you are comfortable there then move on to something else. 

It's been my experience that a hot horse is better off learning it's OK to go slow. Letting them move out just hypes them up and they want to go faster. My first mare was an arena soured barrel horse. I spent months letting her go no faster than a walk, then months of letting her slow trot for very short distances and then back to a walk and she couldn't trot again until she relaxed. I had her a year before we started on loping. Even though she thought full speed ahead was the best her whole attitude changed for the better once she realized that she was capable of taking it easy and enjoying the scenery (we did all this out on the trail). 

We're in the age of instant gratification and that's just not possible with horses. We send a horse to a trainer or work with them ourselves for 30 or 60 days and think that the horse should now be perfect. It takes years, many miles and a lot of work to have the perfect partner.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I've been working outside so I've had time to think about this all day. Remember when you were a student nurse or had just graduated and you had to instruct and then do a procedure on a patient that was about your Grandmothers age? You had to be the professional in charge and you where not sure you were? So you told yourself you were the nurse and it worked, you really were. You were confident enough to give your patients confidence in you. Now, picture Zippy wearing the hospital gown, and you are her nurse. For her own good you are in charge. Now fake it until you convince both of you. You can take care of dying patients, you can certainly make a horse behave!


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## offthegrid (Aug 11, 2009)

I think lunging can be a great way to interact with your horse whether they are young or old - but I agree 100% that the goal is not to "wear them out" because you will lose.  And they will only get fitter and fitter, and less likely to "tire out".

There is a great book about lunging....I lost my copy but it taught you how to teach your horse to lunge, step by step, starting on a leadrope, and the moving up to a lunge line. Tons of exercises and fun things to do. 

I used to lunge my OTTB ex-broodmare quite a bit when we first started to ride her because I didn't trust her and she would be "jiggy" and nervous at first. My ultimate goal was just to get her listening and thinking before mounting - and when we were really at our peak I could get her to go from a halt to a walk to a trot...back to a walk, and back to a square halt in 2 rotations. She was like "I've got this".  

We used the same verbal commands on the ground and under saddle, and it really helped me communicate with her and learn to trust her. 

I also just wanted to comment about feed -- a scoop of grain is not really likely to turn an otherwise normal horse into a fire-breathing maniac unless they are experiencing some sort of food intolerance or allergy. I'm sure the real issue is the lack of turnout and the new herd bound situation with the gelding. So, if she needs weight, I think it's reasonable that you can supplement her feed carefully without making her "hot". I'd personally go with beet pulp....but if she won't eat that (or it's too inconvenient, because it must be soaked), you could consider something like Triple Crown Senior feed, which has a low NSC (13%, if I recall) but is higher in calories. I would definitely not feed oats if you're concerned about her being hot - oats are almost the highest sugar/starch (NSC) content possible (other than corn). Nearly any other grain would be lower.

As for alfalfa, I've never heard of horses having issues with alfalfa. I wouldn't suggest switching from 100% straight grass hay to 100% straight alfalfa hay, but supplementing with alfalfa hay or alfalfa cubes isn't dangerous. Some horses don't tolerate alfalfa as well as others (I have heard people say their horses got "hot") but mine never have. It's a great choice for picky hay eaters because they tend to love it and clean it up.

Finally, I'd definitely say you should work in an arena for a while, and gain your own confidence back. Not having to worry about mounting from the ground, for example, will help you focus on your own riding. And, if you can't resolve the herd-bound problem with the new gelding, think about calling in a trainer for help. 

Good luck!


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Hey - just want to let everybody know I'm not ignoring anyone. I've been away for a few days and don't have time to read everything right now but I appreciate your input and will read it when I get a chance hopefully this evening.


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## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

http://www.amazon.com/The-Longeing-Book-Arco-Equestrian/dp/0668063246

Probably one of the best books on longeing a horse out there, lots of exercises and reasons for longeing, it has diagrams/pictures and pretty much step by step.

Never just run the horse in a circle, the only thing a horse learns is to go faster until they can't go anymore, or they tire and pull a tendon, strike a back leg and go lame.

Sit down with a piece of paper and figure out what your plan is for longeing. Do you want to work on verbal commands? i.e. "walk on" for walk, "t-rot" for trotting, do you want to teach the whoa? (that would be your best bet and can be taught on a longe line as well as on a lead).

You can teach collection, balance, shortening and lengthening of gait, etc. on the longe but you need a plan and then research HOW to do it. READ, look at videos, pictures, call a nearby stable and ask to pick their brain..etc.

I understand you have a mentor who helps, but not every horse person knows everything for every horse. Ask around and if you see a consensus in "how" to do a particular thing, I can bet that those are the folks that have done it and lived to tell about it. lol..

Horses are individuals, some respond to subtle cues and others have to be hit with a train to get it. (not literally, but hopefully you get my point). Figure out what your horse is..a subtle "oh yea with a lightly raised finger on the reins or a "ok listen to me and give me your face tweak of the reins)..notice I did not say "haul her mouth out her butt"..

Once you figure that out, adjust what you do to take advantage of her natural inclinations. My mare will adjust her gait if I move my rear in the saddle, I never have to be heavy handed with her, but just Sunday, she lost her pea brain in the indoor arena and had to be longed because she was snorty, bucking and in general having a fit. This is a mare that never does anything, but..she was up all weekend because of pouring rain and was eating her fool head off..so of course she needed to run a little. But after a couple of laps, I began asking her to walk, halt, walk, halt, and then reversed and ask again in the opposite direction. Within a few minutes she was listening, I mounted and off we went and had an hour lesson.

I would accomplish nothing just allowing her to run full steam ahead except for a possible injury and a tired arm. I allowed a couple of laps to get the buck out and then ask for obedience and got it. I ask, ask, then tell. Mares are a bit more difficult at times than geldings but they should mind properly no matter if Mr. McStudly comes for a visit.

I watch ears, I can feel tenseness in the back, the shoulders, the neck..if I tense up, the horse becomes a spring that is wound too tight. Breathe deep, and relax and your horse will tend to feel that and become more relaxed.

That is about all I have at the moment, oh and if your are going to longe your horse, put some polos or other protection on to keep her from accidently striking a leg. If you do not know how to apply polos, go to utube and find a known trainer who is doing it. There are also other leg protectors out there that don't have to be wrapped and are easy to apply. Point is..a circle is small, most horses are not balanced very well when they start longeing and many will strike an opposite leg and create an injury..some serious, some just bruises. It is easier to prevent than to treat.

I usually use a absorbine refreshment brace after longeing or doing any particularly hard work as well to cool out my mare and relieve any swelling, etc.

Got to run, it's time for work again..

and if you do not get something it is easy to say "This is what I heard, "repeat what you think you heard" and then ask if that is correct. Clarification goes a long, long way as horse terminology can vary from one side of the state or country to the other. My poor instructor..I ask her a lot of questions..but I never stop until what she is telling me is very clear in my mind. Then I practice it in front of her until she says "good job", then we practice more until I hear "that's correct"..

Hope this helps..


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

I would not use polo wraps unless you have been well taught and have someone knowledgeable to check your wraps. It isn't hard to cause tendon damage with poor wrapping. Too loose, too tight or uneven wraps can cause a problem. Splint boots and bell boots are much easier and hard to screw up


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I would not use polo wraps unless you have been well taught and have someone knowledgeable to check your wraps. It isn't hard to cause tendon damage with poor wrapping. Too loose, too tight or uneven wraps can cause a problem. Splint boots and bell boots are much easier and hard to screw up


Yup, and there are many horse people that have no clue how to how to properly use polo wraps. Google "bandage bow" and see what happens when done improperly.










From too tight bandages- the hair fell out AND a bandage bow.

From: http://shutupandmuck.wordpress.com/wrapping-for-dummies-101/


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## Mrs_Lewis (May 15, 2014)

fffarmergirl said:


> I DO need lessons. I shouldn't be going off riding by myself anymore. While I trust that my friend does know more about horses than anybody else I know, she's not a rider. She's disabled and has been for many years and, even when she did ride, she much preferred ground work. Plus - she's busy. She taught 4-H kids for many years, though, and her kids showed horses all their lives.
> 
> I want to ride. There are so many boarders over at the stable and none of them actually ride. They just take care of pet horses.
> 
> ...


Hi, it sounds like you have bonded with, and love, this filly. But you pretty much answer your own questions in this post. 
Need lessons - no available trainer.
Need co-rider - none of the others where you board ride.
Can't get another horse - can't board 3.

Board the horse where the help you need is available, or trade Zippy for a horse that is level with you.
Of course, it is easy for random people on internet to give their opinions, but looking at what you've posted you seem quite aware of what you can/need to do. Just need your heart to catch up to your head...

I wish you and Zippy the best for the future.


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