# murmer getting louder, it may be starting



## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Dangit Stan, Iâm becoming a doom and gloomer.........

I visit another site that has average, everyday people from one metro area. Most of them are typical urban dwellers. Today in particular there is a very strong, dark theme that came up, independently of my own prep influence.

Just for background, the room usually moves fast and has a lot of childish themes so for the group to come together and be mostly serious and discuss some key issues is RARE. Aside from arguments about politics and oil there is something that made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck.

John and Jane doe Urban, at least 5 sets of them in are complaining about MAJOR economic woes. Iâm not talking about bad choices on a mortgage. Iâm talking about hard choices between medicines or gas to go to work. Even the usually comfortable have pulled kids from sports, are having trouble getting groceries, worried about bills. The stress level is on red alert and this isnât a drill.

I live rurally and have been blessed to only have decided not to drive to town for extra fun when I get bored in the boonies. That doesnât mean I am unconcerned. It just hasnât hit home hard yet because we lead an isolated life.

I donât really know how to put my feelings into words adequately. I hate to go red alert like some on here because it gives me stress. As much as I like to think/pretend all is well and I need to quit being paranoid, I have a very bad feeling that when average folks start getting upset the âeventâ is on itâs way. 

The masses are starting to wake up with hang overs..............know what I mean?


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Some other message boards I hang out on are still talking about what the stars wore to the Oscars, and whether Britney is bi-polar. I have neighbors who are suffering a lot from the gas prices, but I don't think a lot of people understand enough to be worried yet.

I'm just glad we're stocked with food, debt free and hubby has a reasonably secure job. It will take a lot longer for hard times to affect people who plan ahead.


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## jlxian (Feb 14, 2005)

I know you are right --- the general talk of gloom and doom is getting more widespread. A lot of the folks I work with are making noises about bigger gardens, how to pay for gasoline, etc.


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## Shinsan (Jul 11, 2006)

I know _exactly_ what you mean Hintonlady. Despite that most Australians feel that we are isolated from the problems in America, they are going to be brought down to earth with a painful thump.
I went into 'Red Alert' around the beginning of the year, and have been prepping since then. Fortunately I've also convinced Chi and the girls that there is the distinct likelihood that conditions are going to get a lot worse before they begin to get better, and that it may be a very long bumpy road ahead.
Tonight's news on the telly that gas prices are going to rise again sharply next week, and that supermarkets can no longer keep absorbing the increased costs of production and transport and will have to raise prices drastically, only reinforced what I had been telling them. ("Gee Papa, how did you know that as going to happen?" lol)
But talk to people in the street, and they don't appear have a clue as to what is happening around them. When the big rushes start on the supermarkets, we won't be in the queues: We will be pretty much prepared. (That sort of preparation helps reduce your stress level a lot, too.)


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## moonwild (Mar 20, 2006)

Just seen on the news that the sale of garden seeds is up 25% this year! People are begining to see the light.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

moonwild said:


> Just seen on the news that the sale of garden seeds is up 25% this year! People are begining to see the light.



With every new person who plants a garden there is also planted a seed of hope.

If people could just change a small percentage of what they do, everyone across the board, it would make such an impact.

So many are too complacent and make efforts such as ours almost cancel out. I think it takes at least two homesteading families to counter balance one mcmansion family.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

hintonlady said:


> With every new person who plants a garden there is also planted a seed of hope.
> 
> *If people could just change a small percentage of what they do, everyone across the board, it would make such an impact.*
> 
> So many are too complacent and make efforts such as ours almost cancel out. I think it takes at least two homesteading families to counter balance one mcmansion family.


And yet, when someone makes a statement to that effect as a Presidential candidate, they get raked over the coals even on this message board where I expect people to be frugal and aware of their own consumerism:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=251633

There is a certain, bull-headed segment of our Nation that thinks we can use, use, use all resources to whatever personal glut they desire. Yet changing just a small percentage of our driving habits would have a tremendous effect on our fuel needs. Putting on a sweater instead of turning up the heat would make a huge difference in how much energy is needed.

:shrug:

Every new garden I've seen this year has made me smile as have the questions I've gotten about raising tomatoes, squash, etc. There ARE people waking up... hopefully most will get on board before we fight over resources.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I noticed the difference when threads on topics that would have once only been seen down here in the "tin-foil hat" forum, are all over the site. Esp. now in Country Families. And when the usual daytime member/guest count went from an average of about 10 to about 40 or 50.

(and I hope that political _arguing_ stays in GC).

Angie


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## Amylb999 (Jan 28, 2007)

hintonlady said:


> Dangit Stan, Iâm becoming a doom and gloomer.........
> 
> I visit another site that has average, everyday people from one metro area. Most of them are typical urban dwellers. Today in particular there is a very strong, dark theme that came up, independently of my own prep influence.
> 
> ...


First of all, I can't possibly see how one could construe my happy go lucky nature as DOOM and GLOOM. 

Secondly,
I go to a City-data Forum for my area. The folks on these forums are mostly the mobile corporate types. They go to these boards to find out general info and fluff about an area prior to moving. Well my area (well really south of me by 50 miles or so.)is filled with bedroom communities for North Jersey and NYC. Yup, the drive over 80 miles in bumper to bumper traffic. Their commutes are in excess of 2 hours one way. They bought in the region to get away from the city/superburd. 

Now the nightmare has come to the surface. They are talking about losing their homes, layoffs, crazy high gas, food, and every manner of doom!!!! I was just as surprised as you when the threads started to appear. What is really interesting is the folks in these areas paid 200-250,000.00 for their "country" home. If they lose their city job or can't afford to get there the jobs where they live pay on average $10.00 an Hr. They are sinking fast. It's really said to see. But truthfully I don't like the MC people, with their MC houses, and their MC lives. They just drive up taxes for me. 

OH' shoot this was a doom post. 

This is ME not She!!!


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## pickapeppa (Jan 1, 2005)

I have an adult child who works in a large, well-to-do suburban area of Chicago. She's a waitress for an upscale restaurant, and doing quite well for herself, income wise.

We had a conversation today about gas prices and commuting as she's planning on moving to the city soon with a transfer. She said that business and tipping has only dropped off a little bit since gas really started climbing.

The increased rent in the city would be offset by lower transportation costs for her.


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## moonwild (Mar 20, 2006)

pickapeppa said:


> I have an adult child who works in a large, well-to-do suburban area of Chicago. She's a waitress for an upscale restaurant, and doing quite well for herself, income wise.
> 
> We had a conversation today about gas prices and commuting as she's planning on moving to the city soon with a transfer. She said that business and tipping has only dropped off a little bit since gas really started climbing.
> 
> The increased rent in the city would be offset by lower transportation costs for her.


The upscale will be the last to give up.They will have to drag the credit cards out of their cold anorexic hands before they give up going out to dinner!


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## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

While I am happy to see more people are putting in gardens, I hope that these people also find a support network. It can be so hard to start something new and not have a clue what you're doing and have no one to ask. It would be a shame to see people who were tight on money to begin with end up spending a lot to start a garden and get little to show for it...and not know why.

I also hope that there isn't too much of a backlash for those who are just beginning to see the light. Even if we think our neighbors are "yuppie scum" they are still our neighbors. And late to the party is better than not showing up, right? (Besides, for every family that learns how to garden, I have to stock one less case of ramen.)

Kayleigh


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## Mostie (Mar 20, 2008)

Maybe it's just me, and maybe I'm really just weird, but...it reminds me of the stories about Noah's Ark, how nobody would listen, and everyone would just talk about how crazy Noah was for doing what he was doing, etc.- I don't see it so much as spewing 'gloom and doom' as I see it being about the fact that...the facts, are the facts-things are what they are- gas here just went up to a little over 4$ a gallon today- I don't really know what the price is everywhere else, except in California where my older kids are- and I know it's higher there than it is here- and we seem to be such a society that doesn't want to hear the 'bad' things, because it's 'depressing'- and now all of a sudden, hard times are knocking at the door- and people are worried that if they admit it, and face it, that somehow it's going to hasten it, or something, and bring it about faster-- there's a difference in being a 'gloom and doomer', and just facing what is- I haven't read every post in every forum on the board, but I haven't really seen a whole lot of 'gloom and doom'- just a lot of people who are scared, and hey- I don't blame anyone for that!


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## Ninn (Oct 28, 2006)

What really has me worried is how this is going to affect the stone industry. My husband is shop foreman in a shop that builds the pallets all that stone is shipped on. When people stop spending money on luxury items, those lovely bluestone patios will be on the short list. When the stone isn't selling, the quarries won't need pallets. Tight now, they are turning away clients, they are so busy. I have no idea what we will do if the shop goes under due to lack of demand for stone. Somehow, I don't think people are going to be building decorative garden retaining walls out of PA bluestone in California anymore. Most of the stone that is mined here is sent south and west for landscapers and builders. With the mortgage crisis, the gas crisis and the economic downturn, I have a feeling that we are going to be in dire straights rather quickly. We are considering building on, even in the trailer park, rather than buying a house. We can afford lot rent a whole lot easier than a mortgage payment. Guess it's a good thing I'm going back to work. There will always be office work to do somewhere. Any pay check is better than none and this economic mess is really starting to worry my hubby and me.


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## kabri (May 14, 2002)

We just planted potato last summer because we knew we would not have much time to nurture a garden. They did great!!! This year, we got serious, added lots of compost from our pile, and planted. Now for the challenges! Our black spanish turkey hen thinks the garden is her private play ground! Since we have lots of predators I don't clip wings. We bought one of those water scarecrows. It caught her in mid flight, DH witnessed her putting on the breaks and swerving to avoid the water spray! Then it was a battle with slugs. Think we got that under control. Then :grit: moles decided to have a party under our one area that has a raised bed, that had the carrots, beets, lettuce and spinich just starting to emerge! Huge holes now in the dirt, many seedlings destroyed, :Bawling::Bawling::help: We decided to try beets again, after rats totally destroyed our crop 2 years ago. Protecting these plants is harder than our sheep and chickens!!!!


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## uyk7 (Dec 1, 2002)

> If people could just change a small percentage of what they do, everyone across the board, it would make such an impact.


IMO, it wouldn't make any impact at all. Big business would just increase their prices and leave then there. Back in the 80's, the utility companies in VA asked customers to conserve as much as possible to see how much energy could be saved. The customers saved so much energy that the utility companies raised their rates because they weren't selling enough.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Today I found myself thinking that I better take a couple of gas cans and fill them for the mower. In a couple of months it might cost me double what it would be today. GB announced last night that gas has gone up every day for the past 5 days. One day it jumped a dime and another day (earlier, not during these 5 days) it jumped .25 overnight. What if it starts jumping .10 a day, or .25 a day? What if it jumps $1 overnight? I'm filling every gas can I have for the mower and the weedwacker. I might end up using that extra gas in the car if prices go so high I can't buy gas anymore.


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## Horns Bach (Mar 11, 2008)

Feeling extremely "anxious" today, I would call it "anxiety".
Not knowing, but knowing something is coming, you know.

The hurricane season is supposed to be bad this year, 9 hurricanes predicted and at least two of those very powerful. All we need to knock gasoline up into the sky and beyond reach.

People in my line of work who travel alot are now complaining about the airline industry, sending out warnings that the prices are skyrocketing (get your tickets NOW), and not only that but the airline services are getting chaotic, delayed flights and such. I don't think the airlines are going to make it if the prices go any higher.

I think we are going to see fuel rationing in the next couple of years, sooner if something interrupts supply.


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds
> 
> "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!" -- Charles Mackay, "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds", 1841





> Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences.
> -- Robert Louis Stevenson


I've been watching the housing bubble unfold for several years; it lasted several years longer than I would have expected. And I've been watching the public slowly come to the realization of just what a hangover it's going to be.

A year and a half ago, here on this subforum, bearish financial news was generally ignored or scoffed at. I was told that I should be focused on rain barrels, and that only greedy people worried about preserving their purchasing power by buying gold. About 6 months ago though, lots of people besides me started posted such info, and it generated much more discussion, and a greatly reduced hostility.

At the same time, I also visit a bearish financial forum, and have since about 2002. For the most part, everything was concerned about which stocks to short, whether gold or silver was going to outperform, what the short term direction of the stock market was going to be, etc. About 6 months ago, I noted an occasional new phenomenon -- people talking about stocking up on food, whether to get a gun or not, and so forth. Suddenly a few people started to realize that major economic problems, which they've been seeing building for years, were going to have an impact on their physical lives too, not just on their bank balances. 

In short, I think up to this point, most people have been focused on only one segment of the problems we're facing, and are suddenly confronted by the magnitude and the interconnectedness of everything. 

At this point, if I had to guess, we're still at less than 10-15% of the pop'l that's really aware of what's going on. I expect that number to accelerate quickly, now that more people have friends talking about it, or know someone personally affected by layoffs, foreclosures, etc. 

The shoes still to drop are:
* cities and states hurting for tax revenue, and facing painful budget cuts or tax increases or both
* Pension fund underfunding, and social security being negative cash flow in several years and not offsetting the fed budget deficit but adding to it
* implications of peak oil for agriculture and suburbia

This stress on the middle class is likely to have a political impact too, altho I don't know how to predict what it will be.

So, I'd say you're wise to be upping the alert level. And the info you give is very useful anecdotal info.

--sgl


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

Ninn said:


> What really has me worried is how this is going to affect the stone industry. My husband is shop foreman in a shop that builds the pallets all that stone is shipped on. When people stop spending money on luxury items, those lovely bluestone patios will be on the short list. When the stone isn't selling, the quarries won't need pallets. Tight now, they are turning away clients, they are so busy. I have no idea what we will do if the shop goes under due to lack of demand for stone. Somehow, I don't think people are going to be building decorative garden retaining walls out of PA bluestone in California anymore. Most of the stone that is mined here is sent south and west for landscapers and builders. With the mortgage crisis, the gas crisis and the economic downturn, I have a feeling that we are going to be in dire straights rather quickly. We are considering building on, even in the trailer park, rather than buying a house. We can afford lot rent a whole lot easier than a mortgage payment. Guess it's a good thing I'm going back to work. There will always be office work to do somewhere. Any pay check is better than none and this economic mess is really starting to worry my hubby and me.


Welcome to my world... we're artists. Right now, I can still make bank when we release a print, but art isn't very important when people can't afford gas to get to work.

One more year and we'll be completely out of debt and our house should be finished. If something happens before we can complete that, we'll still be OK, but that's my plan and I'm sticking to it while the sticking's good.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Heh. I'm a farmer first and foremost. Because I can't keep the ends meeting that way, I also work a consulting gig as an engineer designing high-availability computer systems. 

The worse things get ... the better BOTH of my lines of work do.


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## Guest (May 23, 2008)

Shinsan said:


> Despite that most Australians feel that we are isolated from the problems in America, they are going to be brought down to earth with a painful thump.


A little off topic, but the reason Australians and Americans feel something of a kinship is because our histories have such strong similarities, and it's made us as two peoples who are very much alike. 


Mostie said:


> I don't see it so much as spewing 'gloom and doom' as I see it being about the fact that...the facts, are the facts-things are what they are-


It's hard for anyone to ignore the facts when inflation is spiraling out of control and the economy is collapsing.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I've got to differ with the poster way up who said "It will take two HT'ers to offset one mcmansion'er".

Not sure where she was looking but I have seen some of those mcmansioners that it would easily take way more than a dozen of the 'frugal Me's' to counter balance.

Wastefullness personified........


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## Shinsan (Jul 11, 2006)

From Ladycat: "A little off topic, but the reason Australians and Americans feel something of a kinship is because our histories have such strong similarities, and it's made us as two peoples who are very much alike."

At the top end, we are tied firmly together by Govt policies and Big Business, thus at the bottom end, (where you and I are at), we are united by a common hatred of those!


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## Freeholder (Jun 19, 2004)

Shinsan said:


> From Ladycat: "A little off topic, but the reason Australians and Americans feel something of a kinship is because our histories have such strong similarities, and it's made us as two peoples who are very much alike."
> 
> At the top end, we are tied firmly together by Govt policies and Big Business, thus at the bottom end, (where you and I are at), we are united by a common hatred of those!


While recognizing the validity of a common enemy as a unifying force, we have more than that! We have not only a lot of similarities in our history, we also have similar cultures because many of the founders of our respective nations came from the same places. This is true of Canada, also, and, of course, New Zealand. It helps that we share a language, too!

Kathleen


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## Guest (May 23, 2008)

BlueJuniperFarm said:


> we also have similar cultures because many of the founders of our respective nations came from the same places.


That's part of the "similar history".


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Jim-mi said:


> I've got to differ with the poster way up who said "It will take two HT'ers to offset one mcmansion'er".
> 
> Not sure where she was looking but I have seen some of those mcmansioners that it would easily take way more than a dozen of the 'frugal Me's' to counter balance.
> 
> Wastefullness personified........


You are absolutely right, I just like to be goofy. This subject is too heavy for me to grasp in any other way.

IF tshtf all the poeple in my area will be thrilled to have me for my most ridiculous enthusiasm and humor at the worst of times. : ) I seem to clown around more the more stressed I am. :shrug:

Morale boosting should be on all prep lists!


Today I went to Aldi, because who can afford malwart these days? I have a wierd thing where complete strangers start to talk to me wherever I go........

The lady in front of me just blurted out something about gas prices and her worries about things to come. I just smiled.....

She also started a conversation with several other people in line and the cashier. Cashier jokingly mentioned needing a second job to pay for the diesel in her tractor from helping her husband farm. That my friends is a VERY bad sign. 

The next line over had a couple side comments, it was an odd moment of a small rural store coming alive with gas/economy/no $ for groceries gripe fest. 45 seconds later it was over. It happened just the same and in my opinion is pretty significant. When gas was lower I never saw people join in like they did today.

Natives are restless, bastile party on horizon. I will be staying home where it's safe. I'm not big on carrying pitch forks and torches. (can't afford the kerosene to light one anyway)


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## Sabre3of4 (May 13, 2008)

We just has this situation pop up. The City Utilitiy wanted to raise rates(because of conservation) just after a huge fiasco with something else in the city budget and it got really ugly at the city council meeting scheduled to talk about it. Thank lord we have to have a council vote before they can raise rates because quite a few of the council members are hanging on to their seat *by* the seat of their pants and are afraid if they vote to raise rates, there will be a very real call to lynchin' around here.....

Sabrina




uyk7 said:


> IMO, it wouldn't make any impact at all. Big business would just increase their prices and leave then there. Back in the 80's, the utility companies in VA asked customers to conserve as much as possible to see how much energy could be saved. The customers saved so much energy that the utility companies raised their rates because they weren't selling enough.


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## mezzogirl (May 25, 2008)

A little late getting in on this but..
Here in Atlanta, people are totally in out in the blue. Everwhere around us those "other" people are losing their homes, cars, liquidating their assets to keep afloat, etc. Check out Craigslist for Atlanta and their are easily 400 posts a day on people selling all the furniture they own just to make ends meet. There is SO much housing for sale right now- including new construction just sitting there. Many people who wanted to trade up to higher lifestyles (I find that is what Atlanta is about) could not sell their house because of the overwhelming market of foreclosures. So they are just remodeling the current home to meet the wants. I see very little concern about preparing for anything here. I mentioned the word "homesteading" the other day among some church friends and crickets....."What is THAT?!" Wow, I did an audience check and decided to just be quiet. And that is what we are going to do. Stay quiet, finish paying down our college debt and car loan and then get the heck out of dodge. Atlanta is the last place you want to be if any catastrophe occurs. 
Just an example, during Katrina, there was buzz that their may be a shortage of gas in the Atl metro area and what happened? Within a few hours, many gas stations were out of gas and people were assaulting each other at the pump. Yikes, time to move out to the sticks.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

mezzogirl said:


> A little late getting in on this but..
> Here in Atlanta, people are totally in out in the blue. Everwhere around us those "other" people are losing their homes, cars, liquidating their assets to keep afloat, etc. Check out Craigslist for Atlanta and their are easily 400 posts a day on people selling all the furniture they own just to make ends meet. There is SO much housing for sale right now- including new construction just sitting there. Many people who wanted to trade up to higher lifestyles (I find that is what Atlanta is about) could not sell their house because of the overwhelming market of foreclosures. So they are just remodeling the current home to meet the wants. I see very little concern about preparing for anything here. I mentioned the word "homesteading" the other day among some church friends and crickets....."What is THAT?!" Wow, I did an audience check and decided to just be quiet. And that is what we are going to do. Stay quiet, finish paying down our college debt and car loan and then get the heck out of dodge. Atlanta is the last place you want to be if any catastrophe occurs.
> *Just an example, during Katrina, there was buzz that their may be a shortage of gas in the Atl metro area and what happened? Within a few hours, many gas stations were out of gas and people were assaulting each other at the pump. Yikes, time to move out to the sticks.*


It wasn't just ATL.... out here in the Commerce/Athens area, gas and gas cans were hard to find. I was on my way to the Mississippi Coast right after Katrina and I almost couldn't find anything to carry fuel in to make sure I had enough once I got to Mississippi. The people here bought out every store that carried gas cans. They panicked.


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

I've noticed on various forums more discussion of frugal living. Of course, I often laugh at what others consider frugal! We enlarged our garden again this year.

At a recent family gathering I took the opportunity to talk to several "in the know" family members. One is a CPA married to a bank examiner and she said that he was "very busy and it is never good when bank examiners are that busy." Another CPA whose corporation owns a number of Interstate truck stops said that the dollar limits imposed by the oil jobbers on the amount of product he could buy in a week is no longer enough to fill his tankers and that if prices keep rising he will end up out of product before he can purchase again. Another who is a CPA who was in banking for a number of years and is now working for state government, said the economy was "in the tank" and "sucks big time" and "its not going to get better for a very long time". Ages of these people vary from mid 40's to late 60's so they are experienced as well as knowledgeable. They also vary from very wealthy to living paycheck to paycheck. This was on two different days with different people present and no one expressed any interest or asked any questions other than me and my dh. 

A couple weeks ago as I came home on Friday evening a tanker was unloading at a local gas station. Before the weekend was out they had all their pumps marked "out of fuel". I thought it odd at the time but after hearing about the oil jobbers issue I'm wondering if that was the problem i.e. $ allotment allowed wasn't large enough to fill tanks.

I think people in general do not see beyond their own personal financial issues to the big picture. While this is especially true of the 40 and under crowd, it is also true in a large segement of the population of any age. A couple old sayings come to mind...none so blind as those that will not see...and head in the sand.


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## mezzogirl (May 25, 2008)

JGex,
That is when I truly realized that I was living in a "dog-eat-dog" community. I'm not very familiar with the Commerce (I just know about the big outlet mall) but all of North GA seems to have become the Atlanta suburbs. I personally know people who commute from Dahlonega to ATL every morning. If there is a shortage of gas here - more than just a two day event- there will be major rioting. I think I would rather read about in the paper than experience it first hand....


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## MorrisonCorner (Jul 27, 2004)

Well, nothing like high gas prices and "general Yipes" to get your butt in gear. I finally put my foot down this year and insisted we put some sort of garden in. Now, whether or not I can get him to actually eat the vegetables that come out of the garden.. that's the challenge...

I decided to invest in "high end" stuff too: blueberries, strawberries, currants, apples, pears.. and if I'm lucky... a cherry tree as well. I'm thinking we can "always" afford rice and beans if necessary, but the luxury items, like blueberries? Those would be nice to grow, and might even have market value if it came to that.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

mezzogirl said:


> JGex,
> That is when I truly realized that I was living in a "dog-eat-dog" community. I'm not very familiar with the Commerce (I just know about the big outlet mall) but all of North GA seems to have become the Atlanta suburbs. I personally know people who commute from Dahlonega to ATL every morning. If there is a shortage of gas here - more than just a two day event- there will be major rioting. I think I would rather read about in the paper than experience it first hand....


I agree with the rioting.... 

Commerce is a little rural, but growing due to white-flight. I don't have a choice about living here right now, so we're just hunkering down. We live in a house that looks like crap from the outside, so I just have to hope that the larger, more affluent looking houses will be looted before anyone considers mine, lol.... 

I simply cannot imagine commuting from Dahlonega to ATL every day. We talked about DH commuting to ATL when we moved here, but I didn't want him having an aneurysm in traffic due to high blood pressure, so we figured out a way to work at home and make $$. So glad we did now.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

I have a dumb question. I live out in the sticks where not all that much has changed yet. Everything is getting more expensive, but most of us are just tightening our belts. We grow much of our own food and many have a long history of living within our meager means. We can, sew, garden, cook from scratch and make the occasional sacrifice and do without. We are an eddy off the mainstream of American society. We don't have much, we don't make much, we don't buy much.

I hate to admit it, but lots of folks around here think that it's high time the McFolks are getting a little taste of a drink called Fairness, with a chaser of Reality. Is it true that is happening? In all honesty, we don't really know any McFolks personally, but we hear about them from others and on the news. Is reality really coming home to roost? Are these people really having to sell all their fancy stuff and start living "real" like the rest of us? Or is it just that they are complaining about how bad things are for them while they downsize from the new Hummer to a new Jeep Cherokee? From the $750,000 McMansion to a "tiny" 2000sqft $150,000 hovel? (We paid $40,000 for our land, house, and barns.) I just can't quite bring myself to believe that they are actually suffering from hunger and homelessness. Am I mistaken? I guess I can imagine it possibly happening to me, but not to them--it has seemed so unequal for so long that I can't wrap my mind around the idea of them truly being humbled.

Other than rumors, I really don't have any good source of info regarding this question. (We don't have tv reception out here, so I get dribs and drabs from the internet and listen to what others have heard.) Thanks for the info.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

ovsfarm,
That's not a dumb question. I've wondered the same thing myself.


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## mezzogirl (May 25, 2008)

Well Ovsfarm,
I guess everything is relative. I grew up north of Lake Pontchartrain (New Orleans) area in the 80's when it was one stop sign and woods. We built our house as a family with cash and NO nail gun (if you know what I mean). Atlanta was a culture shock for me. It is very affluent and while people are friendly, there investments are not always in the right place. I put a high value on friendships and community spirit. That isn't a priority here that I have noticed. It is very easy to get sucked up into the McMansion lifestyle even if you aren't that sort of person. I have been convicted a few times myself of compromising my values to obtain the lie. 
So the reality is- there are many wealthy people in this area. But you won't find them in McMansions. Those people are the ones who built a life on credit cards and interest only loans because they could make the monthly payments. When prices started going up, they started moving out. Now those houses are not selling and they are getting foreclosed on. They are not starving to death. But they are being humbled. As far as being a dose of "Fairness," I think everyone has been swayed by people around them at one point in their life. A lot of these people, some of which I know personally, had great intentions of providing a great life for their kids and their future. They couldn't see a few years down the road. Yes, they will definitely taste reality but this is a learning experience for everyone.


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## turtlehead (Jul 22, 2005)

We moved from Atlanta three years ago. We left a swim/tennis community and *excellent* schools to move to the boondocks of WV.

From what I gather from friends and family still in the 'burbs, what they are now feeling is a "downturn" in the economy. They have to play golf at home instead of at Lake Tahoe. They keep the "old" SUV instead of buying a new one. They eat out less often or at less expensive restaurants. Some folks I know have been unable to make house payments and their homes got foreclosed on. They're still working and eating, but they're renting now. They aren't scared or "humbled", they're waiting for things to improve and get back to normal.

These people aren't greedy or selfish. They usually want the best for their kids - good education, opportunities in sports and the arts, maybe the chance to learn a language (or two) and travel - see the world and experience other cultures. They're heavily involved in their children's lives, coaching little league, running scout troops, helping with neighborhood swim meets, and chaperoning field trips.

These people aren't stupid, either. They have good solid skills and made good solid plans for the future based on the fact that they have good solid jobs. Most of them do have a lot of bills - mortgage, car payments, credit cards - but they also expected they'd have the means to pay those bills. They don't, in their opinion, squander money foolishly. They invest in retirement funds, college funds, and home improvement. They tithe at church and contribute to charities. They enjoy eating out and vacationing, shopping for clothes, and giving gifts to their friends. They simply are accustomed to having a larger income/outgo than most folks who hang out on HT.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Turtlehead, I know a lot of people like the ones you describe. Just solid middle class people enjoying life and doing their best for their kids. I know a dozen women my age who have absolutely NO interest in any of the things I do, and don't even like the idea of camping or canning. They aren't stupid, they just have no frame of reference. In their entire lives they've been able to buy what they wanted, vacation, improve their lives every year. Nobody I know has gone bankrupt yet or lost their house, but I'm sure many of our acquaintances are worried about how bad things will get before it improves. And I do know two neighbors who have significant credit card debt....

We could be considered McFolks in some ways - hubby has a secure job, we live in a nice, mid-sized house, own a respectable sized farm, our kids go to a private school, our kids play in Little League and take gymnastics. 

But the difference is that we've worked hard to stay debt free. My car is 8 years old, hubby's is 6. We don't vacation or buy new toys, or even eat out very often. We keep to ourselves, grow a big garden, improve our land, save for the future. We're very frugal and document where all our money goes, and all our purchases are talked over as "needs" or "wants". 

Plus we've got food and supplies that would see our family through an extended period of unemployment, unrest, or illness.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

ovsfarm said:


> I have a dumb question. I live out in the sticks where not all that much has changed yet. Everything is getting more expensive, but most of us are just tightening our belts. We grow much of our own food and many have a long history of living within our meager means. We can, sew, garden, cook from scratch and make the occasional sacrifice and do without. We are an eddy off the mainstream of American society. We don't have much, we don't make much, we don't buy much.
> 
> I hate to admit it, but lots of folks around here think that it's high time the McFolks are getting a little taste of a drink called Fairness, with a chaser of Reality. Is it true that is happening? In all honesty, we don't really know any McFolks personally, but we hear about them from others and on the news. Is reality really coming home to roost? Are these people really having to sell all their fancy stuff and start living "real" like the rest of us? Or is it just that they are complaining about how bad things are for them while they downsize from the new Hummer to a new Jeep Cherokee? From the $750,000 McMansion to a "tiny" 2000sqft $150,000 hovel? (We paid $40,000 for our land, house, and barns.) I just can't quite bring myself to believe that they are actually suffering from hunger and homelessness. Am I mistaken? I guess I can imagine it possibly happening to me, but not to them--it has seemed so unequal for so long that I can't wrap my mind around the idea of them truly being humbled.
> 
> Other than rumors, I really don't have any good source of info regarding this question. (We don't have tv reception out here, so I get dribs and drabs from the internet and listen to what others have heard.) Thanks for the info.



Very valid point. Since I am the OP I would like to elaborate on the spirit of my post.

Yeah, there is the mcmansion set who can get used to living on a budget. *oh the horror*. They can go bankrupt and start the game all over again all from the confines of a cushy job and life of convenience. 

Those people could use some exercises in a humble life.

What I was and remain concerned about are the average struggling, payday to payday, not quite middle class families. My worries are for the poor just getting poorer. Sadly while the Mcmansions set are semi insulated and getting financial slaps on the wrist the working poor are getting a financial smack down.

In my area for instance: Amerin electric rates went up so high last year many people simply could not get bills paid. many were shut off. Of course due to laws about winter many get cut in spring and never can afford to pay it down or turned on again for next winter. Amerin also announced another 15% rate hike in a couple months. Been lots of threats of legislation, they are a monopoly in the area but still no relief. 

I know one guy, through a forum who was about to get fired. He simply does not have the gas money to get to work all the time. (Yes he was online, at a library or home is not my business. Yes he could get a 2nd 3rd or 4th job, again not my business)

minimum wage in my area is $7.50
40 hour work week times 4 weeks = $1200 a month - 17% taxes/fica etc. = $996 a month take home.

Average rent for small DUMP $400
Average utilities for said dump $100 or more
car expense because no late buses to meanial gas station job or living rurally
$150 for car payment and maintenance, because the poor cannot buy a car cash outright.
Another $75 a month for insurance
Another $100 or more for gas
Now add in the basics like food and daycare if someone is a single parent.............


It reminds me of the adage "sold my soul to the company store".

Not everyone has the advantage of a good job, or is immune to unemployment, not everyone has specialized training or a good edumacation. Some people, in great quantity lead very desperate lives even without a slump in the economy. The poor are paying dearly for the mistakes and ignorance the mcmansion set put into the mix.

I live rurally and am insulated from seeing a lot of this stuff but my origins are from a harsher, city, "hand to mouth existance". Not everyone escapes........


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## Mostie (Mar 20, 2008)

I remember seeing something online a bit back about a husband and wife in their 40's who (I can't remember what exactly happened, but I know their home was foreclosed) were quite well to do, and had to buy a very, very nice RV and live in that- they were going on about how humiliating it was, and devastating to be in this situation in their 40's- they filmed it on their RV...I remember sitting there, thinking these two must be insane, to complain about something that was very, very nice, it really was- and I wondered how they would have fared had they REALLY hit rock bottom and ended up in a homeless shelter - this happened to me when my ex husband walked out on me and 5 kids when the rent was due, and I was home after losing my job because I was getting over pneumonia...talk about a reality check right between the eyes...it was horrific, but more than how horrible it was, was the realization that to make 'things' important (bigger cars, better homes, nicer vacations, etc. etc., the list could go on and on andonandon..) was to be brought up short and smacked in the face should something happen, such as losing a job, losing a spouse, etc.- it changed me forever, it really did- when you're in a situation such as that, you realize what is really important in life, and how many luxuries are truly not needed, to be happy- 

I recall reading another one somewhere about how someone said she had to tighten their belts by going from butter to margarine- I have to admit, I laughed- I haven't bought butter in years, lol~


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

What will happen to many of the people caught in the crunch is that they will use credit cards to prop up their lifestyle. I see it all the time even for people with lower incomes. Instead of immediately reacting to a downturn by cutting all spending they keep on keeping on the way they did when things were rosy. Eventually, they will end up in bankruptcy unless a miracle happens. Pride has a lot to do with it. They don't want the Jones to know they can't afford to keep up. (There was a cartoon in the newspaper awhile back that said "Its a lot easier to keep up with the Jones since they filed bankruptcy.") There will always be those who are not seriously affected by a downturn but in this recession I think there will be many more who will.


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

Dh and I were discussing the downward "class" slide yesterday. As we see it, the people who were barely lower middle class (like us) are now sliding dangerously close to upper lower class and even lower, those who used to live there are now poor. Those who used to be poor are becoming desperate and the desperate are now nearly destitute. I'm not so sure how much this is affecting the upper middle class and upper classes, but liked Turtlehead's explanation that they are having to play golf locally rather than travel to distant, upscale locations. From my perspective, that does not seem like all that much of a bother, but I guess it varies depending on one's perspective.

I have pondered how long and low the slide will go. I personally doubt that the wealthy who call the shots (and price the gas) will let it go to complete annihilation of the masses. They need someone to buy the junk their cheap labor, foreign factories pump out. If we're all starved-out dead, then there are fewer consumers able to bring them more money. But I do fear that many will have to face becoming wage slaves in order to exist. 

The only way I know to preserve my independence and my family's wellbeing is to be as self sufficient as possible; to opt out of the game rather than trying to win at it. So to conclude our discussion, dh and I tried to brainstorm what jobs and industries will thrive in the lowered/lowering economy. Things like small engine and appliance repair for when people have to get things fixed instead of replacing them (using recycled parts instead of new), local food producers who have very low energy inputs and are very close to their markets, equipment rental companies who could rent trenchers or trailers or chipper/shredders for infrequent uses instead of consumers having to buy those things. Hmmm, what else will lots of people need during these times???

We live in exciting times!


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

i'm sure you'll all have lots of sympathy for these people:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/01/f...d3fe3d03622d334b&ex=1212552000&pagewanted=all
> 
> It&#8217;s Not So Easy Being Less Rich
> By CHRISTINE HAUGHNEY
> ...


But if you read the whole thing, you'll see that they're cutting back on their spending on hair stylists and personal trainers, etc. That means those people are also affected. It's a ripple affect all the way thru the economy. Eventually it hits people that mfg cars and boats, and people that sell organic veggies to restaurants, and all the people that sell to those people....



ovsfarm said:


> I hate to admit it, but lots of folks around here think that it's high time the McFolks are getting a little taste of a drink called Fairness, with a chaser of Reality.


While there's plenty of stories in the news about people that overextended themselves and are now losing their homes, this is just the first round effect. Whichever industries were selling to those people will now have to cut back, laying off people, pressing their vendors for discounts, cutting back on travel and training and R&D and advertising and charitable contributions. These second tier effects don't only hit the people that deserve it.

There's also ways to get hit financially by the town you live in. When the SIV debt market first froze up, turns out the state of FL had a bunch of money in SIVs that local towns and municipalities had their spending money in. They had to scramble to pay the local police and firemen. 

The blowup of subprime caused a financial loss to a little town in Canada, and a little town in Norway north of the artic circle. Both will have to cut services or increase taxes. There's a city in Louisiana that had money in some sort of interest rate swap that is now losing money.

A big bank just cut back on student loan funding to community colleges and second-tier schools. 

And that's before any impact on the crime rate. 

And don't forget that all these people get to vote too. See any sanity or realism coming out of the politicians of either party these days?

If the stock market crashes, or it simply goes nowhere for a decade, it means that many state and private pensions which are already underfunded will not have enough money to pay out what they promised. Companies and states will have to contribute more, which means either they raise prices/taxes, or cut staff/services. Or retirees will get less than they were expecting.

Robert Louis Stevenson said: "Soon or Late, we all sit down to banquet of consequences." While true, the consequences don't always land on the ones that acted foolishly. I think there will be a lot of pain around the country and around the world due to the credit bubble bursting.

--sgl


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## mezzogirl (May 25, 2008)

Ooo, so right SG142! Last summer, not only was the economy weakening but we were (and still are) going through a major drought in Atlanta. Our watersource that services the entire metro area was at record lows and you could see all kinds of garbage at the bottom of Lake Lanier that had never been exposed before. Well, the drought restrictions were heavily enforced here. Many small local landscape companies who were already suffering because if the mortgage crisis went out of business. Pretty much anything that had to do with outdoor water went under. Landscaping is a HUGE business here and many of the businesses are mom and pop run operations. So it is like a big food chain of sorts. 
That marriage thing you posted was pretty funny. That dude "bought" a shopper- that's why his net worth dropped to $8 million...


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

sgl42 said:


> Robert Louis Stevenson said: "Soon or Late, we all sit down to banquet of consequences." While true, the consequences don't always land on the ones that acted foolishly. I think there will be a lot of pain around the country and around the world due to the credit bubble bursting.
> 
> --sgl


This and the rest of what you posted is what keeps me from exercising much Schadenfreude over watching any "McFolks" getting a taste of reality. No matter what the staunchest survivalist wants to think, no man is an island and the chances of everyone being affected in some manner by the economic situation is pretty likely. 

While I'm all for people getting the chance to fully learn the hard lessons of living beyond their means, I also look at society as a living organism comprised of all people. Like a real living organism, if there is cancer in one part of the body, it will affect the health of the rest of the body.


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## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed myself....and I've never even been in the "middle" class....and had to do the garden/canning thing my whole life....hunting and fishing ....cutting firewood.
We committed to no debt many years ago and attained it before age 35, we went without dinners out, babysitters, nice clothes, new cars, "toys" for the kids....I am so glad we did because we'd be sunk by now. (no doubt)

I'm glad I have experience doing all this stuff and have added farming but its a long LONG day and it hurts to shell out $1000 for 9 cord of tree length wood but the heating oil equivalent would be nearly $5000. And butchering your own animals is no NO! fun but we like to eat and meat is very satisfying....

Our kids also know the meaning of work too and so we can count on them to help provide for the needs of the family. My son shot his first deer at 10yo. Not many boys get to be young "men" so early these days. My 12 yo daughter has been right by my side planting an incredible amount of corn, potatoes, beans and tomatoes etc. this year. She also does morning and night milking chores with me while my 7yo is sweeping and washing/putting away dishes and tending the piglet.

My husband works 6 days a week. Cuts wood or tills or hunts on the 7th.

I feel like I have to be on my "game" at every minute....if the dog barks I check for thieves 4 legged or 2.....If the chickens or guineas sound off I'm checking....

And this is just the beginning......


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## insocal (May 15, 2005)

JGex said:


> And yet, when someone makes a statement to that effect as a Presidential candidate, they get raked over the coals even on this message board where I expect people to be frugal and aware of their own consumerism:
> 
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=251633
> 
> ...



Shame on you, you COMMIE PINKO, JGex!!!!

;-)


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## tnborn (Mar 18, 2005)

I feel the high gas prices at my house. I'm thinking about axing several things.Have to replant my beans:grit: I want to buy some apple, pear, cherry trees. strawberries and grapevines are on the agenda. I hope to get some bills paid off.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

insocal said:


> Shame on you, you COMMIE PINKO, JGex!!!!
> 
> ;-)


It's the hat, isn't it? 


Must get new picture.....


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## rkintn (Dec 12, 2002)

*Yes he could get a 2nd 3rd or 4th job*

Unfortunately, this isn't as easy as it once was either. Just ask my oldest daughter looking to find a job in the next town over, where she lives, in order to save on gas. She's hit every fast food and movie rental place in town...not to mention Hellmart. A year ago, it woulda been a gimme to get a job at any of those places...not any more.


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## Mostie (Mar 20, 2008)

rkintn said:


> *Yes he could get a 2nd 3rd or 4th job*
> 
> Unfortunately, this isn't as easy as it once was either. Just ask my oldest daughter looking to find a job in the next town over, where she lives, in order to save on gas. She's hit every fast food and movie rental place in town...not to mention Hellmart. A year ago, it woulda been a gimme to get a job at any of those places...not any more.


That reminds me of where I used to live, in the Central Valley in Cali- it's an agricultural belt, and during the off season, the minimum wage jobs are snatched up really quickly- my son in law wanted to get a job at Taco Bell, and for crying out loud, they asked for a resume, lol- I couldn't believe it...


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

mpillow said:


> I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed myself....and I've never even been in the "middle" class....and had to do the garden/canning thing my whole life....hunting and fishing ....cutting firewood.
> We committed to no debt many years ago and attained it before age 35, we went without dinners out, babysitters, nice clothes, new cars, "toys" for the kids....I am so glad we did because we'd be sunk by now. (no doubt)
> 
> I'm glad I have experience doing all this stuff and have added farming but its a long LONG day and it hurts to shell out $1000 for 9 cord of tree length wood but the heating oil equivalent would be nearly $5000. And butchering your own animals is no NO! fun but we like to eat and meat is very satisfying....
> ...



I know each and everyday is hard for you..but you should be very proud of the lessons you are teaching your children and how much quality you bring to your family. :clap:....


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## two_barking_dogs (Sep 17, 2002)

One problem that we have in my area is that home construction is a major part of the local economy. This home construction was usually for second homes for people from Atlanta or retirees moving into the area from other parts of the country. From what I understand the request for building permits has almost gone to zero. So since home construction has slowed more people have less money to spend. This is impacting the smaller stores and resturants as they have less customers and thus they are cutting back on staff. Economic slowdowns feed on themselves

Also being in a more rural area requires you to drive longer distances. Its not like for a lot of you all out west but at 15 miles to town it adds up for a lot of folks.

I still notice that most people in the area still don't have gardens. Seems strange since most people have plenty of room to grow a garden if they wished.


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

The mummur is growing to a rumble as more and more are facing the hard facts of high gas prices, ever increasing food prices, too much debt, loss of jobs, business closings. Big businesses are cutting back which leads to small businesses losing orders and failing. Cities are struggling to provide services. 

The city where I work has huge holes in streets even major streets and they've been there for months. City leaders want to build a huge aquatic center by bond issue and assess individual homeowners for infrastructure repairs and citizens are raising their voices (finally). I understand last night council meeting was very interesting!! 

Our local community paper had two articles on emergency preparation this week. There is going to be a senior citizen meeting with county law enforcement to discuss emergency preparations and I've suggested my dh go and listen. Maybe its just pandering to the elderly but the suggestion was anyone who has managed to survive to age 70, 80 or beyond has already been thru a few emergencies and their experience will be valuable in a future emergency. No one said anyone who survived the Depression and WWII but I felt it was sort of implied. When you think about it that is very true. Seniors have a lot of useful survival information that will be gone when they are.


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## Shinsan (Jul 11, 2006)

two_barking_dogs said:


> ....Also being in a more rural area requires you to drive longer distances. Its not like for a lot of you all out west but at 15 miles to town it adds up for a lot of folks.
> 
> I still notice that most people in the area still don't have gardens. Seems strange since most people have plenty of room to grow a garden if they wished.


Our village is populated by many Air Force personnel, so they're not inclined to establish veggie gardens as they routinely get posted to other bases. Many of the other permanent residents are 'Tree Changers' who wanted to get out of the city: They live in McMansions, still have jobs, SUVs they don't need, and have no interest in gardening other than landscaped front yards and flower beds visible to people passing by.
But I've noticed that as each week goes by the smiles are slipping and the tempers shortening as people become more aware of the deteriorating economic situation.


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## countrymouse (Nov 9, 2004)

As per my usual MO, I'll defend people in the city. 

Sure, the city is filled with clueless, inconsiderate criminals, slobs, and yuppies, but there are plenty of other people that live here with functioning brains. For every BMW-driving-stock-broker-a-hole, there's an old guy looking in the alley for good things that have been thrown out. For every soccer-mom with $75K in credit card debt, there's a single mother with no debt, a garden, and a stash of gold coins. In my little church alone, there are several immigrants and refugees from some of the most violent conflicts, brutal governments, and severe economic collapses in history. They're not only prepared for SHTF--they've already survived SHTF! 

OK, now I'll get on-topic:

I was at a quiet, family-oriented barbeque in suburbia a couple of weeks ago and two relatives of the host and I started discussing the coming depression. These guys steered the conversation to the widespread cannibalism that we are "bound to experience" after the collapse! Just imagine that conversation five years ago (anywhere other than on this board, of course.)


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## sgl42 (Jan 20, 2004)

countrymouse said:


> I was at a quiet, family-oriented barbeque in suburbia a couple of weeks ago and two relatives of the host and I started discussing the coming depression. These guys steered the conversation to the widespread cannibalism that we are "bound to experience" after the collapse! Just imagine that conversation five years ago (anywhere other than on this board, of course.)


Very interesting anecdote. Seems the fact that there's serious problems is penetrating into the mainstream consciousness. However, it not surprisingly is mostly irrational and ill-thought out fear, rather than reasoned analysis of what's likely to happen, or reading of history to see what's happened before. Any insight into what these people were doing to prepare? Where they stockpiling food? Cutting back expenses? Gardening?

Personally, while I think the crime rate will increase everywhere, I don't expect there to be maurading hordes roaming the countryside everywhere. It will be much easier for desparate people to have protests in front of city hall and the state capital, and i'm sure a whole slew of politicians and pedagogues will arise to service the need. Doesn't cost anything (except inflation) to print more money, they'll dole out money to everyone to pacify them. Probably huge lucrative contracts to Cargill and Monsanto and ADM and Wally World and Halliburton to set up soup kitchens.

I expect the politicians and their idiotic new plans and ideas to be far more dangerous (and unpredictable) than any problem from crime. Also, while inconvenient, protecting myself from a random criminal here and there is far more under my control than most other potential problems.

--sgl


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2008)

sgl42 said:


> I don't expect there to be maurading hordes roaming the countryside everywhere.


I don't expect there would be too many of them. By the time it got to that point, there would be no fuel to drive, and most would be too weak to walk very far.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I think that while it's really starting, since the regular people are starting to notice an impact.

I think not much is being done yet by them, cause they are in shock and not believing what their pocket book lint is telling them.

Hopefully, the shock will wear off and some adjustment of their lifestyles will make it 'better' for them and those they impact.

Maybe.....

Angie


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## Kazahleenah (Nov 3, 2004)

> minimum wage in my area is $7.50
> *40 hour work week times 4 weeks = $1200 a month - 17% taxes/fica etc. = $996 a month take home.*



17% taxes? Try closer to 33%. (State, FICA, Federal and SS)

$7.50 X 40 hours= $300.00
33% taxes:$99.00

leaving $796 "take home" a month.


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## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

AngieM2 said:


> I think that while it's really starting, since the regular people are starting to notice an impact.
> 
> I think not much is being done yet by them, cause they are in shock and not believing what their pocket book lint is telling them.
> 
> ...


*Lots of low income folks are getting hit but it is still just a thing that happens to other folks in the main stream mind. There are still LOTS of inches of belt tightening that can get squeezed, before the herd panics. When extras start to go bankrupt like 30% of fancy bistros, trendy boutiques, florists, car detailers etc. etc. then it will get ugly. That type of business closing up signifies the beninning of the urgently impending collapse. While they still operate as usual, spending is as usual.

I am sure .gov analysts and corporate finance teams are watching this very closely and squeezing every last cent out of gas, inflation on basic needs etc. I think they hope to ease up a hairs breath away from snapping the camels back. What they don't realize is that panic, frustration and the fall out of rolling heads does not fade as quickly as a stimulus will buy.

Tax perks for people who live more sustainably would have been smarter. IE: lowered grocery tax if you garden and shop less, lowered fuel tax by using hybrids or less fuel, lower utility tax if you use less power willingly etc. Then at least the money would be well spent on the American people and go a long way to help the country and environment.

That's not what they want, now is it? They want that stimulus money we pay for in taxes to funnel right into corporate Americas balance sheet, only spending moments in our thin, desperate hands.

Somewhere between summer gas hitting $5, a very bleak October in stocks and a Christmas sale season going dry and insane winter heating costs I think the bottom will fall out.*



Kazahleenah said:


> 17% taxes? Try closer to 33%. (State, FICA, Federal and SS)
> 
> $7.50 X 40 hours= $300.00
> 33% taxes:$99.00
> ...


*I wanted to be modest in my guesstimate. I assumed someone would say that those figures were too lean and cite that many people do not make merely minimum wage, or have two income families.

I wasn't trying to be exact, merely illustrating my point. it is obvious you are already speaking my language. *

Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?!?!?!


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2008)

hintonlady said:


> *Tax perks for people who live more sustainably would have been smarter. IE: lowered grocery tax if you garden and shop less, lowered fuel tax by using hybrids or less fuel, lower utility tax if you use less power willingly etc.*


Sounds like a government paperwork nightmare.


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

At present the standard response seems to be more about how to maintain the status quo rather than survive shtf so I'd say the majority of people haven't "got it" yet.


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## countrymouse (Nov 9, 2004)

sgl42 said:


> Very interesting anecdote. Seems the fact that there's serious problems is penetrating into the mainstream consciousness. However, it not surprisingly is mostly irrational and ill-thought out fear, rather than reasoned analysis of what's likely to happen, or reading of history to see what's happened before. Any insight into what these people were doing to prepare? Where they stockpiling food? Cutting back expenses? Gardening?
> 
> --sgl



That was the funniest thing about the whole conversation. They really believed it was going to happen, but didn't seem all that prepared. As far as I can tell, their prep consists of stocking up on extra ammo. Hell, maybe they are planning on being part of the problem! :croc:


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