# Older shep relapsing in front of newbie in traini



## LFRJ (Dec 1, 2006)

Here's a conundrum! We had two older working farm collies. Both were terrific guard animals, very trustable around our poultry - very, VERY keen to the way the farm was to be kept and together they were a formidable team! Sasha (13), the alpha female died suddenly last winter, leaving Oscar (7 yrs) alone. He went into a severe depression and was seemingly unable or unconfident to manage alone. 
We picked up another English shep pup who is now 8 months. She has a bit of prey drive we are trying to correct and with help from an e-collar, she is coming around so as not to chase the poultry. Oscar NEVER before chased or harmed our poultry. He is in charge off leash all day btw while we are at work. Never lost a bird.

We were hoping he would help 'teach' the young pup, but not happening. In fact, he's such a beta-boy that when the 8 month old began chasing the chickens, he joined in, tackled one and began ripping the feathers off. We were shocked - completely the opposite of what we wanted. Okay. He's a follower, not a leader. Since the pup is way too young and untrustable unsupervised, during the day, she has been kept in a fenced yard away from the birds. 

We have lately put Oscar in the fenced yard with her for company. As someone else mentioned, boredom is our biggest enemy. (She otherwise has all day to spend figuring her way through the fences). This arrangement works fine, until a chicken hops into their yard by big mistake and then guess what. Oscar, springs into action and demonstrates chicken mauling to his little sister who for the most part, watches.

And yet, when they're apart, he's fine and back to his old, trustable self. Nary a feather is harmed. So, what IS this?
Why does he exhibit chicken killing behavior when with her, and not alone? Pack behavior? Where do we go from here? Keep working with her separately and keep them kenneled apart until she IS trustable? Finally, how much back peddaling is occurring each time she gets to watch her older brother demolish a chicken while we're doing everything in our power to teach her otherwise? 

We could borrow another older female for the summer who, much like our beloved late collie who died, can rule the roost for a while. Would that be worth trying? 

Oy! I was really hoping our older boy would teach her the ropes, but he seems to be taking her every cue, and she's not even a year old yet. What a putz!


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## anita_fc (May 24, 2008)

Therein lies the problem of trying to use a breed that is essentially a herding breed. You are more apt to find varying and problematic degrees of prey drive in herding breeds. Sounds like the pup has awakened Oscar's prey drive. Wish I had some real advice to offer. :-(

Anita Crafton
Dan-Ani Pygmy Goats
Hansen, Idaho


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## LFRJ (Dec 1, 2006)

Nope. Not helpful, but thanks for your reply. 

I refuse to bow to the notion that the only helpful LGD's are Great Pyrs, et al. :hohum:

I don't want them. They would not work on our 4.5 acre farmstead (where we contend with coyotes, *****, and occasional cougar). English Shepherds have proven to be workable guard dogs for decades and our former team more than exhibited their talents for our needs over the years - even took on varmits that left them so lacerated, they ended with hospital stays, tubes draining their wounds, and me with enormous vet bills. So yes, there are varying levels of prey drive, but i will not be persuaded that the only LGD is of the usual standard. 

I have a common problem and need practical advice. In the end, and over time, we hope to knit the two dogs together (current 8 moth old and 7 yr old beta boy) to replicate the team we had before. 

I can borrow a farm collie from another farm for the summer. Would it help teach the 8 month old pup?
Thanks.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

The easiest way to have taught the pup about chickens would have been to have him around them when he was smaller. I would work with the pup separately from the older dog until I had control of the pup.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

At that pup's age, I would not leave it alone with chickens. Even livestock guardian breeds are not reliable with chickens until they are mature. 8 moths is puberty, an age which most dogs become obnoxious for a while. And you have genetics working against you, in spite of your refusal to accept that idea. Livestock guardian breeds have been bred for thousands of years to virtually eliminate prey drive. Herding breeds (including ALL types of collies) have been bred for hundreds of years to HAVE a prey drive, only the prey drive is redirected into herding activities. You are trying to make a dog do something it was never designed to do. 

So I have no useful advise for you, other than to say good luck. I hope it works out for you.


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## MARYDVM (Jun 7, 2004)

Your farm was previously ruled by a doggie matriarch.( I had one of those in an American Bulldog who made it her business to see that everyone behaved, and every creature was taken care of). Your male was simply mirroring her behavior. Now he's doing the same for his new undisciplined "leader". Bringing in a dominant ***** will help in the short term, but if the young female does not develop a caretaker personality then problems will persist. But I would definitely try bringing in the older female as a role model.
I would also put the e-collar on the male and set him up for a strong correction in the presence of the pup. He needs a negative experience in the killing chicken with her in the pen situation to interrupt that new behavior ASAP.


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## LFRJ (Dec 1, 2006)

Thank you so much Mary. 

Both sheps come from the same, excellent working line so our expectations are that the pup will mature and fill the role our former ***** occupied, (with the male resuming his role as the muscle of the operation). 

We more than certainly anticipated that we would have to corral and direct the prey drive, (which is not as strong in English sheps as in Borders, Aussies or Cattle dogs), but we did not expect the kink in training our older male has presented....and I wasn't sure if adding another governing ***** to the mix would help add guidance, or just be a nuisance. So far, they haven't made a kill, but they're getting closer each time a bird hops the fence into their area.


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