# flemish giant terminal cross



## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

which way would you make the cross? which breed(s) cross well? that is which tend to retain more of the commercial breeds conversion & meat to bone ratio?


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

You don't say what you want to cross it with, but I would go with the doe being the biggest and the buck the smallest.
But I don't know how good of mothers the flemish giants are.

I've been doing a 3 way cross, with Cals, new zealand and Champayne D argent. They said the Cal NEw zealnd should be the terminal cross, but I found the hybryd vigor in the doe to make a good mother, so I went 1 more generation.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

Flemishes aren't meat rabbits. This question comes up regularly, I think it's the 'bigger is better' idea. In this case, such a big rabbit requires a LOT of bone to support it's structure - and more bone means less meat. I wouldn't cross in a flemish into my meat lines - even if it is terminal.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

it works in beef, goat & horses for meat. in the case of beef & horses it is generally done to improve the production of a more robust breed. like a good beef breed X brahman or criollo, gives you better conversion & more meat to bone than the criollo or brahman. but the cross is also better at converting rough pasture than the fancy beef breed & more robust. w/horses warmblood first crosses have the best meat to bone ratio on a bigger frame than a hotblood type. more feed involved but more meat in the same amount of time.
i don't see why crossing a meat breed & a giant shouldn't produce a bigger fryer in the same amount of time & only a little loss of conversion rate.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I understand crossbreeding works, but why not cross to another meat breed which are known for meat production and better bone? Not to mention the same body style (commercial). For example, the cow breeds you listed are still meat types. The horses are two different types - hotblooded breeds are known for lighter frames/muscling, and the warmbloods for larger frames/muscling. You're just averaging the two together, though you could get a more light type or a more heavy type - just depends on the gentics and how things pan out. 

By bringing in the flemish blood, you're increasing weight by adding bone, not meat. Bigger carcass, less meat for the amount of food put in. These studies have been done to show this. I know there's been links to it on the forum before. I believe the best cross was NZW/Cali, followed by the pure nz and cali, then flemish crosses, then pure flemish. It's all about economics and conversion, and less about superficial size. Sure, kits may be bigger but you'll put more into them for the size they get and get less out. 

Either way you make the cross, you'll loose that commercial body style. Genetics is 50/50, some will look more like momma (which if you do make the cross, should be the flemish) and some will look more like the father.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

criollo & brahman are NOT meat breeds, they are "unimproved" breeds. no specialization. which is why they are more robust. terminal crossing improves their production or crossing them on beef cows improves their conversion of rough pasture & makes them more robust.
russian horse meat raisers do terminal crosses of hot bloods on coldbloods to get a better meat to bone ratio on a bigger frame. they have been doing it long enough thatthey have certain preferences in which breeds they cross because the production is consistant. (they have also developed a warmblood breed specifically for the meat market.)


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

Hey Pops I have crossed meat breeds with Flemish with the same results every time- Flemish stamp themselves on their offspring. It means bigger heads, more bone, and slower growth rates. While most meat breed fryers are putting on muscle Flemish Fryers are growing frame, they really don't start to put on decent weight/muscle/meat until they reach over 4 months old. Thats not a fryer, thats a roaster, and by then you've poured the food into them because Flemish eat a lot, a lot more than commercial breeds. I was pretty appalled by the growth rates I saw with the Flemish crosses, there didn't seem to be much of the hybrid vigor I'd seen with other crosses either. When people use Flemish in a meat program its normally not the first cross that is the terminal cross, they take a Flemish/NZ cross and cross that on other commercial meat breeds, keeping some of the large frame and getting back some of the growth rates and better muscling. Mygoat is right, Flemish is not a meat breed, and your feed bill may end up higher than you think. Also different species, different rules, what works with other livestock may not be as effective with rabbits. Are you eating these yourself or feeding to dogs? If for your dogs the more bone might be a good thing, but for yourself thats different. Big deal is feed consumption, with Flemish you feed more, for a lot longer, but of course YMMV.


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## PulpFaction (Jul 23, 2009)

Up here, based on the stock available (which of course would vary elsewhere,) the Silver Fox stud I used on my SF does was larger than my purebred Flemish and MUCH meatier with finer bone.

My SF does eat as much as my 5lb Thriantas and hold better condition. My Flemish NEVER stopped eating. Bottomless pit.

You could not pay me enough money to work a Flemish into my breeding program. Just can't see how it's worth it.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

One of the flemish giant would eat a pound of feed a day, and that would be the buck. If it were the doe and she was nursing, I don't want to even think about how much she would eat.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

thanks Honorine


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## Honorine (Feb 27, 2006)

Always happy to help Pops


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I was told you shouldn't use any kind of wire for the floors of the cages for these rabbits. I would hate to scrape the mess out of the wooden bottom of a cage. Yuck!


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

so what are the meat breeds (besides NZ & cali)?


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## Dirk (Jun 6, 2011)

Pops2 said:


> so what are the meat breeds (besides NZ & cali)?


American, American Sable, Beveren, Blanc de Hotot, Californian, Champagne D'Argent, American Chinchilla, Cinnamon, Creme D'Argent, English Lop, Florida White, French Angora, French Lop, New Zealand, Palomino, Rex, Satin, Silver Fox.

Pretty much most medium and large rabbits have been used for meat production at some point and time. Some folk prefer medium rabbits because one rabbit is a meal for each person. Most prefer large rabbits so they can feed several people with a single rabbit.

General consensus is that giant rabbits are not very efficient meat producers.

http://www.debmark.com/rabbits/basics.htm


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## tbishop (Nov 24, 2004)

any "compact" 6/8 breed- Let me look at ARBA site-

American sable
Blanc de Hotot
Cinnamon
Creme d'Argent
Champagne d'Argent
French lop 
Harlequin
Palamino
Rex
Satin
Silver Martin
Silver Fox
Along with Cals and NZW, NZB, and NZR

I went with the compact breeds 9 1/2 lbs or more. An argument could be made for Americans, Rhinelanders, and beverens but their body types are different enough to change offspring.

Tim


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## Pat Lamar (Jun 19, 2002)

tbishop said:


> any "compact" 6/8 breed- Let me look at ARBA site-
> 
> American sable
> Blanc de Hotot
> ...


The term is "commercial" body types. The "compact" body types are, indeed, the same as the "commercial," but are too *small* to be considered for the commercial meat markets. Example: Dutch and Florida Whites are "compact" because they don't reach 5 lbs. by the 12 week maximum requirement for fryers.

Pat Lamar


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## AprilW (Nov 25, 2007)

If you only want meat for yourself and not to sell, purebred Dutch DO make good meat rabbits. They will weigh ~5lbs and need much less space/feed. But I doubt they'd be good to cross with a larger rabbit.


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## Pat Lamar (Jun 19, 2002)

Dirk said:


> American, American Sable, Beveren, Blanc de Hotot, Californian, Champagne D'Argent, American Chinchilla, Cinnamon, Creme D'Argent, English Lop, Florida White, French Angora, French Lop, New Zealand, Palomino, Rex, Satin, Silver Fox.
> 
> Pretty much most medium and large rabbits have been used for meat production at some point and time. Some folk prefer medium rabbits because one rabbit is a meal for each person. Most prefer large rabbits so they can feed several people with a single rabbit.
> 
> ...


Sorry, Dirk, but I disagree with your list. The American, Beveren, English Lop, and Florida White are *NOT* actual meat breeds. And, although the French Angora is listed as a "commercial" type breed, the commercial value is in the fur/wool, not the meat. Although any rabbit may be eaten, it does depend upon just how much meat and/or bone one prefers. There is absolutely no way that I would even consider raising English Lops for meat! LOL

Pat Lamar


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## tbishop (Nov 24, 2004)

Pat Lamar said:


> The term is "commercial" body types. The "compact" body types are, indeed, the same as the "commercial," but are too *small* to be considered for the commercial meat markets. Example: Dutch and Florida Whites are "compact" because they don't reach 5 lbs. by the 12 week maximum requirement for fryers.
> 
> Pat Lamar


Thank you for the correction Pat. It was lurking in the back of my head that I wasn't correct on that, but I couldn't quite grab it. I think it's because I started with mini lops. Same type, different weight. I hope I have that right now. Thanks again!

Tim B.


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## HillRunner (Jun 28, 2010)

is there no way to breed the giant breeds fo finer bones?


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Keep breeding to a comercial rabbit, but you probably loose size doing it.


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## PulpFaction (Jul 23, 2009)

HillRunner said:


> is there no way to breed the giant breeds fo finer bones?


IMO, it's already been done. That's how you end up with a 12 lb meat rabbit with smaller bone. Probably about the same amount of meat as a giant breed, the weight difference is in the bigger bone and head.

I'm always amazed at the mass and muscle of my Silver Fox. The Flemish never felt like that to me, even their skin felt loose and heavy. I never got the impression that I was holding meat "on the hoof" with those guys like I do with the SF. I know lots of people that eat Flemish, but they raise them for show and pet and just eat the culls. The ones that are really serious about raising MEAT steer clear, unless they've been misinformed.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I would love to see your silver fox/ Mine felt like big mini lops with straight up ears.


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## PulpFaction (Jul 23, 2009)

http://haikuheritage.weebly.com/silver-fox.html

There's my girls as Jrs. I ended up only keeping the top one. The buck I bred her to is a monster, I'll try to get pictures of him next time I'm over there. Actually, I am over due for pictures of all my SF stock. If it's still sunny this evening when I get off work I will get photos! I have some 12 week olds that must be well over 6 lbs now. Larger than my biggest Thriantas.


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## Pat Lamar (Jun 19, 2002)

There IS a "formula" for using Flemish Giants to produce meat fryers, but it requires using the FG only *ONCE* to breed to a purebred NZW. The offspring is then bred back to a NZW to produce the F3 buck that is preferred. It's that F3 buck that you will want to use as a herd buck on your NZW's.

Pat Lamar


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

PulpFaction said:


> http://haikuheritage.weebly.com/silver-fox.html
> 
> There's my girls as Jrs. I ended up only keeping the top one. The buck I bred her to is a monster, I'll try to get pictures of him next time I'm over there. Actually, I am over due for pictures of all my SF stock. If it's still sunny this evening when I get off work I will get photos! I have some 12 week olds that must be well over 6 lbs now. Larger than my biggest Thriantas.


Nice. Maybe one of these days, I'll try them again.


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## tbishop (Nov 24, 2004)

Pat Lamar said:


> There IS a "formula" for using Flemish Giants to produce meat fryers, but it requires using the FG only *ONCE* to breed to a purebred NZW. The offspring is then bred back to a NZW to produce the F3 buck that is preferred. It's that F3 buck that you will want to use as a herd buck on your NZW's.
> 
> Pat Lamar


That's GOOD information right there.

Tim B.


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## PulpFaction (Jul 23, 2009)

So the meaties you would be producing with that F3 buck are only 1/8 Flemish?


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## ilovehome (Sep 5, 2010)

I think the Americans are considered a semi-arch meat breed, as are the Giant Chinchillas, which according to the SOP are supposed to be evaluated "primarily for their commercial value. Its meat producing qualities are to be given first consideration." Since I have both, I am interested in processing them at 5 lbs and comparing their meat bone ratio.

Of course, this is not a commercial operation here...


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## Pat Lamar (Jun 19, 2002)

ilovehome said:


> I think the Americans are considered a semi-arch meat breed, as are the Giant Chinchillas, which according to the SOP are supposed to be evaluated "primarily for their commercial value. Its meat producing qualities are to be given first consideration." Since I have both, I am interested in processing them at 5 lbs and comparing their meat bone ratio.
> 
> Of course, this is not a commercial operation here...


Surprisingly, it does say that in the SOP. Ironically, however, when you consider the point system of judging this breed, the body is 40 pts., but the fur (15 pts.), color (15 pts.) and condition (10 pts.) ALSO add up to 40 pts., so the fur/color/conditon is equal to the body. Naturally, we want the rabbits to have the best bodies possible for their body type, so yes, there has to be meat on those bones. Otherwise, I honestly don't agree with that statement regarding the judging of its meat producing qualities because of the semi-arch body type (not desired in the meat industry) and the fairly heavy bones (also not desired in the meat industry). The "commercial value" with this breed is in the beautiful fur and not the meat. Processors just don't like that semi-arch body type and the heavier bones.

Pat Lamar


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## Pat Lamar (Jun 19, 2002)

PulpFaction said:


> So the meaties you would be producing with that F3 buck are only 1/8 Flemish?


Yes, that is correct.

Pat Lamar


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## lil'farmer (Jul 20, 2011)

PulpFaction said:


> http://haikuheritage.weebly.com/silver-fox.html
> 
> There's my girls as Jrs. I ended up only keeping the top one. The buck I bred her to is a monster, I'll try to get pictures of him next time I'm over there. Actually, I am over due for pictures of all my SF stock. If it's still sunny this evening when I get off work I will get photos! I have some 12 week olds that must be well over 6 lbs now. Larger than my biggest Thriantas.



lol I understand what you are saying about the SF breed we got a resuce buck.. he was 1 yr old never had been matted lol our other buck was not sure what to do with our girls ( i think he was too young still) lol This beautiful 12 pound SF Stud took care of our NZW doe and WOW what a litter large and in charge!!! I will have to see how to post a pic lol they are big and there dad is HUGE!!!!! I love him to death he is so sweet and friendly and he "Get's the job done"


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## PulpFaction (Jul 23, 2009)

I put up new pictures of my younguns here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.221829997837011.61797.180319155321429&type=1

My does are off being bred right now.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Those are nice. I almost bought a SF Buck that carried the blue gene, But i ended up with a white NZ. instead.
I lost my white bck the middle of last summer and have gone through a couple more trying to re-start my herd. After buying a trio of Champs, The cals just don't measure up so much. The growth is just not there. So I want to end up with Champs, NZW and Cals. So I can cross them.


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## scpankow (Mar 31, 2011)

SquashNut said:


> You don't say what you want to cross it with, but I would go with the doe being the biggest and the buck the smallest.
> But I don't know how good of mothers the flemish giants are.
> 
> I've been doing a 3 way cross, with Cals, new zealand and Champayne D argent. They said the Cal NEw zealnd should be the terminal cross, but I found the hybryd vigor in the doe to make a good mother, so I went 1 more generation.


Squash, the reason this works is that you are using three different breeds. This is what I will be using with my Altex/Cali/NZW breeding program. If you were to breed your Cal/NZW cross back to a Cali or NZW, you would lose the hybrid vigor.

Shannon


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## scpankow (Mar 31, 2011)

Pops2 said:


> which way would you make the cross? which breed(s) cross well? that is which tend to retain more of the commercial breeds conversion & meat to bone ratio?


Pops, you could try getting an Altex buck and using that as your terminal sire. Cross him with a Cali or a NZW. Even better is to cross the Altex with a Cali/NZW cross doe. This is has been studied at some length and may give you closer to what you want. They tend to reach butcher weight 1-2 weeks earlier.

Here is a link to the program at Texas A&M:

http://users.tamuk.edu/kfsdl00/rabb.html

Shannon


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

scpankow said:


> Squash, the reason this works is that you are using three different breeds. This is what I will be using with my Altex/Cali/NZW breeding program. If you were to breed your Cal/NZW cross back to a Cali or NZW, you would lose the hybrid vigor.
> 
> Shannon


If you line breed you will see some hybryd vigor if you bring in a unrelated animal even if it is the same breed.


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