# Ccw



## CGUARDSMAN (Dec 28, 2006)

Anyone carry and what?? I just bought a new Glock 27 that will be my new carry piece.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

KelTec 32ACP, Colt Series 70 Gold Cup NM, sometimes a Glock, Ruger 22 auto, 22 mag derringer, S&W Model 15, various Blackhawks, and sometimes it's just a surprise.


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

I have a CCW and do carry... I rotate betwen several pieces but the keltec p-32 and a smith & wesson 642 do most of the time. Several full size pieces come out if I indeed have to go into a yucky area. CCW is work and finding the right gear has been "interesting" and eye opening at the same time. A mini glock is temping as is the new compact smith M&P...


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## Tom Bombadil (Mar 25, 2008)

My first CCW weapon was an Astra A-80 firing .45 El Dorado rounds. It was too heavy but could not be damaged no matter what. 

I upgraded to a Glock 23C with Hydrashock rounds when my environments became more predictable and I had more money.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

I have the Minnesota permit and the Utah permit. These two permits make me "legal" in over 30 states (IMHO, the 2nd Amendment makes me "legal" in all 50 states.)

The photo below shows our four 45ACPs. I carry the stainless 3" Kimber 1911 and the S&W 325PD (N-Frame) Airlite revolver.










Edited to say: It looks like I didn't have the Kimber's magazine all the way locked in when I took this photo.


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## FalconDance (Feb 4, 2007)

I have a CCW but don't carry - YET. My revolver is just a tad too big to conceal. Shame, it shoots like a dream and is very reliable. As sweet as Cabin Fever's 'babies' look, I rather prefer a .22 myself.

Very _very _soon I plan to get a much smaller one (oops, hubby heard it here first  ).


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

FalconDance said:


> ....I rather prefer a .22 myself....


That big stainless wheelgun at the top of the photo belongs to WIHH. She doesn't carry it, but she sure likes it. It's hefty enough that the recoil is not as much as my lightweight .45ACPs.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

Wisconsin keeps voting it down.
But I gotta tell ya, being on call a night, and having to go to some really nasty neighborhoods in the wee hours.
You know, "Excuse me sir, can you move your crack pipe, I need to bleed the radiator so as you can get some heat".
Sometimes there is legal CC, and some times there is common sense.

Walther PPK .380


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## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

hunter63 said:


> Wisconsin keeps voting it down.
> But I gotta tell ya, being on call a night, and having to go to some really nasty neighborhoods in the wee hours.
> You know, "Excuse me sir, can you move your crack pipe, I need to bleed the radiator so as you can get some heat".
> Sometimes there is legal CC, and some times there is common sense.
> ...


hunter63,

Do not take this as a personal criticism or a disagreement with the gist of your post. I just wanted to clear up the matter.

The previous Republican legislatures passed concealed carry twice, but the Democratic governor vetoed it twice and the legislative majority could not override the governor's vetoes. The State Supreme Court has put the both of them on notice that the 1873 ban on concealed weapons won't pass a constitutional test when a case makes it to the court. Apparently there are cases that are traveling through the appeals process that could overturn the 1873 ban. The recent election of Mike Gableman may have sealed the issue's outcome. Maybe Doyle's vetoes will allow us to carry, without a permit of any kind, like some states.:rock:


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## beamernc (Jan 5, 2008)

I carry a Kel-Tec P3AT (.380), a Russian made Makarov (9x18), a Glock 19, a S&W 60 (.38) or a Colt Govt. Model (.45). It depends on where I am going and what I am wearing.


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## gunsmithgirl (Sep 28, 2003)

Yup sure do. What I carry kinda depends on what I am doing and wearing. Mostly carry a Springfield compact 1911 .45acp. Sometimes I also carry my full size 1911 or EAA witness.


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## hunter63 (Jan 4, 2005)

diamondtim said:


> hunter63,
> 
> Do not take this as a personal criticism or a disagreement with the gist of your post. I just wanted to clear up the matter.
> 
> The previous Republican legislatures passed concealed carry twice, but the Democratic governor vetoed it twice and the legislative majority could not override the governor's vetoes. The State Supreme Court has put the both of them on notice that the 1873 ban on concealed weapons won't pass a constitutional test when a case makes it to the court. Apparently there are cases that are traveling through the appeals process that could overturn the 1873 ban. The recent election of Mike Gableman may have sealed the issue's outcome. Maybe Doyle's vetoes will allow us to carry, without a permit of any kind, like some states.:rock:



Yeah, I know, I hear ya, no sweat, didn't want to get into all the reasons, only that so far it's illegal.


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## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

hunter63 said:


> Yeah, I know, I hear ya, no sweat, didn't want to get into all the reasons, only that so far it's illegal.


I just didn't want the rest of the forum to believe Wisconsinites are complete idiots. We're only partial ones!:cow::banana02:


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

diamondtim said:


> I just didn't want the rest of the forum to believe Wisconsinites are complete idiots. We're only partial ones!:cow::banana02:


the taxation departments and the other legislation you all put up with may beg to differ  
I have a buddy with family up there and while gorgeous country they are awfully left ...


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## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

I've thought that we should change the state slogan from "America's Dairyland" to 
"Deep in the heart of _*Taxes*_":grit:


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## Va. goatman (May 12, 2006)

I mostly carry a 3in. Ruger sp 101 .357mag but with +p 38 Hydra-shok ammo this is one great little revolver works great on the farm to


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## Jack T. (Feb 11, 2008)

CGUARDSMAN said:


> Anyone carry and what?? I just bought a new Glock 27 that will be my new carry piece.


Wonderful weapon. My wife carries one every single day.

I carry different things depending on how I'm dressed. Walther, Glock, or Smith Scandium. . .


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## CGUARDSMAN (Dec 28, 2006)

Jack T. said:


> Wonderful weapon. My wife carries one every single day.
> 
> I carry different things depending on how I'm dressed. Walther, Glock, or Smith Scandium. . .


I have a Steyr S40 also and it is just enough bigger than the Glock to be uncomfortable in my waistband holster.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Well I have had a State of California (very difficult to obtain, depends on which county you live in) CCW License for over a decade now. We are limited to only three weapons on our CCW license, which just started putting our photographs on them this year!! So I decided on my Colt model 1911 Gov't in .45 a.c.p., a Walther P-38 in 9mm parabellum (9X19mm), and a Czech CZ-52 in 7.62X25mm Tokarev (all Military Surplus semi-auto weapons). I also have numerous holsters for concealed carry - leather shoulder, inside the waistband, outside the waistband, and the fanny pack type holsters. 

I decided not to carry my Ruger GP-100 w/ 6" heavy barrel in .357 magnum (two of them), Czech CZ-75B in 9mm parabellum, CZ-83 in .380 a.c.p., FN/ Browning model 1922 in .32 a.c.p., Browning Buckmark target model in .22LR, or my 9mm Makarov (9X18mm). Plus extra magazines with me at all times. Hey I have the neighborhood bears and mountain lion roaming around up here on the hilltop. 

I do not own a Glock, and never would!! I have shot several models (17, 19, 23) in different calibers, and I just don't like 'em with no manual safety!!!!! That and they have no exposed hammer.....

I wish my California license was like my sister's Michigan CCW license. She can carry any legal weapon she owns with her CCW license. I do know that Michigan will honor any other state's CCW license, so I don't fly back there to visit unless I am packin' my equalizer!!


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## CGUARDSMAN (Dec 28, 2006)

I have a CZ-52 great gun very accurate but is kind of heavy for ccw. The reason i had bought the Steyr was that it had the glock type trigger but had an additional safety too. The Glock however i think is just more durable and like i said the 27 is enough smaller that it carries easily.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

CGUARDSMAN - the CZ-52 is about the same size as a full sized Colt 1911...










That's a Springfield Armory 1911 clone with a CZ-52. With my size at 6'4" tall, I can handle the physical size of toting around that much iron!! That and I was issued a Colt 1911 in the Marine Corps.


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## lockman (Mar 18, 2008)

Sig P220R in a Comp-tac CTAC.


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## Bear (Jan 25, 2005)

Colt series 90 Lt./w defender in 45ACP


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

Thats the first time I have ever heard of someone CCW'ing a p-38 let alone as having a choice of other guns... 

not that its bad - its just the first time.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Well TP, I guess there is a first for everything!!!! I like my Walther P-38's (X2) since I do have several weapons to choose from!!!!


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## Tom Bombadil (Mar 25, 2008)

Is anyone else frustrated with the limitations that are put on their CCW permit? For example, I know a lot of the big cities do not allow weapons on mass transit - even if you have a permit. 

To me, this is stupid. If I have a permit then I should be able to carry ANYWHERE in public.


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## CGUARDSMAN (Dec 28, 2006)

Radiofish here are a few of mine...


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## fishinsoap (Feb 22, 2008)

Colt .45 1991-A1 and Walther PPK. VA has reciprocity with many states, but some of the limitations on where we can carry are a bit much.


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## Batt (Sep 8, 2006)

Cgardsman...Mo. Here too, so that means I can carry what I can legally own. My favorite is my Ruger GP100 .357, but it is just too heavy for everyday use unless I'm going into a really yukky area. Mostly I carry my Bersa .380 in a holster with an extra magazine pocket.


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## wally (Oct 9, 2007)

the state of kansas wants about 600.00 for the ccw..While I would like to have one I cant afford the money now..so I carry ruger 357 on the dash of my truck..and when I leave the truck it goes with me..wally


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## CGUARDSMAN (Dec 28, 2006)

wally said:


> the state of kansas wants about 600.00 for the ccw..While I would like to have one I cant afford the money now..so I carry ruger 357 on the dash of my truck..and when I leave the truck it goes with me..wally


According to what i read about KS. the cost is around $150. where did you come up with the $600 figure??


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## K-9 (Jul 27, 2007)

I carry a Glock 22 or a Glock 27, I hated them at first but since I have gotten used to them I like them and the more I shoot them the more I like them. They are a little thick through the slide but if you plan for it in clothing purchases it is not an issue. But I don't have much of a choice in what I carry as it is prescribed by policy. The flip side of it is that I don't have to worry about the you can carry here, can't carry there rules. Also buy a good holster for your 27 with some type of retention, they are grip heavy and can easily come out of a holster that has no retention. Also never carry a loaded Glock that is not in a holster. Good luck


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Here are two of my listed CCW weapons. 

Why not carry a Walther P-38 as a CCW weapon?? I know a LEO that carries a Walther P-38 as an on duty weapon. I am deadly accurate with any weapon, and I just plain like the Walther P-38 with it's double action trigger, exposed hammer, visible loaded chamber indicator, and an actual safety (unlike a Glock)!!! In fact my dad has Grandpa's WWII war trophy 1943 Nazi issue P-38, my brother has a P-38, but my sister decided she like the Czech CZ-52 instead.

The Walther P-38 in a leather horizontal shoulder holster. Plus the CZECH CZ-52 in an inside the waistband leather holster.









CZ-52 on top and the Walther P-38 below.









This Ruger GP-100 in .357 is just too big to use as a CCW..









The only restrictions that I have are: No carrying in a school, courtroom, correctional facility, or any place where the main source of income is from sales of alcohol. That and any place with a sign prohibiting weapons on the grounds/ facility.

Now don't make me pop a cap in your muffin, with my 9mm Makarov!!!!


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## Tom Bombadil (Mar 25, 2008)

Wear the Ruger on your hip and forget concealing. Who is going to mess with someone who has THAT on his hip?!?


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

I carry 24/7 a KelTec P3AT in .380. Easy to hide and carry 'everywhere'. Concealed carry means just that ....conceal it, carry it everywhere and keep your mouth shut about it. 
I don't carry it in Federal or city buildings or police stations. The other places that have the 'No Guns allowed' signs ....those are exactly the places I want to have my pistol !! Those places we call 'Criminal Protection Zones', and the criminals know it too. To robbers, places with those signs are just soft targets. I refuse to be a target ............
I really like the looks of the small Kimber 45's like the ultra-carry. Someday when I have too much money ......
Ohio Rusty ><>


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

Radiofish- there is nothing "wrong" with the p-38... I find if I am gonna carry somethin that big and as few rounds as it has I will carry a .45. If I want nine and that size the sig 226- Berretta 92 or the glock 17 come out to play... like I said I had just not heard of a p-38 as a choice when others are available before. I like em and just ad a friends here for cleaning etc. I would not mind having a pre war version where the machining and finish were not late war standards


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## VarmitSniper (Apr 2, 2008)

I don't CC yet, still waiting for 21 to come along so i can get a CCP. My choice of weapon though is a Springfield XD Compact, a friend has one and shooting it thoroughly convinced me.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Well TP, as I posted above, I wouldn't own a Glock if it was given to me. 

I have a Czech CZ-75B, and had a S&W model 39 also chambered in 9mm parabellum (9X19mm). I do carry a Colt Gov't full sized model 1911 in .45 a.c.p. as one of my CCW weapons, but here in California we are limited to 10 round or less magzines for CCW carry. My Walther P-38 works out for me just fine, and I can field strip it and reassemble it blindfolded in less than a minute. Besides 8 rounds ought to be enough firepower, unless one is a very poor shot!! 

It is my own personal choice to use a P-38 for the 9mm parabellum round. We are limited to only three weapons on our CCW licenses here in Califorina. With the size of my hands and my height (6'4" tall), carrying around that much steel is no problem for this Marine Corps Veteran. My hands are way too big for my 9mm Makarov, or the Hungarian PA-63 in 9mm Makarov (9X18mm) or the Czech CZ-83 in .380. I have to watch out that I don't get bit in the web of my hand, when the slide comes back to load another round!!!!! I do have plenty of choices of weapons, and went with what is best for my comfort.

Besides during my recent requalification at the outdoor range, I outshot everyone else there while using my military surplus semi-automatic 50+ year old weapons with fixed sights. Of course they have been worked over by my gunsmith as to trigger pull, recoil springs, polishing the feed ramps, etc....


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

Radio - I did not say it was the worst choice in the world  As far as outshooting everyone at the range its usually not that tough  My little kahr arms double action only compact nine with fixed sights is small for my 6'5" frame and mitts but I out shot everyone at our ccw class as did my 642 snubby smith 

I like my tiny guns as much as my big guns. I do find the smaller ones just dandy for CCW If I can carry 10 shots or less with a smaller gun in the same cartridge I personally find it to generally make more sense. 

As far as dislike of glocks- I had never owned or cared for them. I picked one up last year after I gave my dad my last high cap 9mm- a smith 5906 after a few "mistaken" pizza delivery attempts in a week. I wanted another high cap before the democraps got back in and started to gut our rights again. Glock had the cheapest magazines so I tried a Glock 17 and have been pleasantly surprised accurate,reliable and durable.

I guess if your old and feeble and need the additional safeties somewhere on the gun then you are making the right choice -for you  

Funny thing is a couple months after that I "found" a somewhat local sig 226 for CHEAP and grabbed it... I like it to. I always wanted one but never found the right deal and would not pay "new price" for one even though I REALLY like the P220 I have had for years

If ya did not have the mag restrictions there would ya carry the CZ75? I would like ta get one or three  of them too...


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Yes even with two Walther P-38's, I would consider carrying the CZ-75B in 9mm parabellum (9X19mm) for CCW carry. I even have a couple of appropiate CCW leather holsters for my CZ-75B. I find a model of firearm I like, and tend to obtain more than one of that model. And lots and lots of extra magazines.

But with the grey zone in California CCW laws and magazine capacity restrictions, I opted for what I can drive nails with and are legal. I want a large heavy handgun and enjoy the size of my Colt 1911, CZ-52, and Walther P-38. I like external hammers, at least one manual safety feature, and a large handgrip for a CCW weapon.

Old and feeble?? Well I don't need no high capacity magazines!!! The wanna be Gangstas in Detroit and Oakland like them there spray and pray pistolas... Couldn't hit a barn at 30 feet, let alone at 30 yards!!! I just place the rounds in the center of mass, and then one to the head. 2 maybe 3 rounds tops per customer!!! I practice out to 40 meters in distance, and fire from many different firing positions. 










If they get too close, I could always get them with the powder burns from my CZ-52...


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## MoBackwoods (Mar 13, 2008)

I carry a 9mm Beretta 90Two. This is Beretta's new version of the 92FS.



radiofish said:


> Well TP, as I posted above, I wouldn't own a Glock if it was given to me.


I agree radiofish, no Glocks for me!


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## bajiay (Apr 8, 2008)

I am wanting to get my permit as I work lots of night hours....like now. What is the best piece? I can shoot pretty well, want something lightweight, very easy to use....


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## big rockpile (Feb 24, 2003)

Tom Bombadil said:


> Wear the Ruger on your hip and forget concealing. Who is going to mess with someone who has THAT on his hip?!?


Haven't read all the post.But this makes me think back.I use to carry a Shotgun in town,always got stares from people.Well one day I was walking down Main Street couple seen me and was laughing,then the girl seen a Cop,she oh he is going to get in trouble.Well me and the Policeman said our Howdies and went on.Kind of freaked the Girl out.

big rockpile


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

bajiay said:


> I am wanting to get my permit as I work lots of night hours....like now. What is the best piece? I can shoot pretty well, want something lightweight, very easy to use....


WOW! That is a loaded question (no pun intended). You can ask 50 CCW permittees and you'll get 50 different answers. There is soooo much personal preference. The things that I believe most CCW permittees will agree on is:
1. pick a firearm that fits your hand and feels "right" to you
2. pick a caliber that you can "handle" safely (ie, .45acp and .44 mags have too much recoil for some folks)
3. pick a caliber that has a history of being a "man stopper"
4. pick a caliber that will penetrate deeply into the body mass without existing thru the body
5. pick a firearm that you believe will be reliable 100% of the time. There is much debate in regards to reliability between a semi and a revolver.
6. pick a firearm that you can tote all day long without being a discomfort
7. You'll have to decide whether you want to rely on "capacity" or "caliber." In other words, small caliber firearms (semi's) often can carry a high capacity of "less effective" rounds whereas a larger caliber pistol generally carry less capacity of "more effective" rounds.
8. If possible, find a shooting range, gun shop, or friend that will allow you to practice with several styles and calibers of firearms before making a decision.

This is just the tip of the iceberg, there are other items that you'll have to weigh before making a choice that I can't think of right now. ANd choosing a firearm is only your first decesion, once you have made that decison, then you're gonna have to make several others, like concealment methods, holster styles, aiming systems (lazers, night sights, etc), flashlights, whether to carry a secondary firearm, etc.

I'd suggest visiting this website and possibly becoming a member and subscribing to their magazine before you do anything:
U.S. Concealed Carry Association


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

Radio- the old n feeble was a joke on the dinosaur equipment ya carry  don't feel bad though the new stuff I have only keeps the 7 series seventy .45 acp colt Gold Cups and government models,old blued smith revolvers and a m1 garand company . I also enjoy the old stuff more than most  

As a former Glock hater I will point out that they do shoot well and past 20 yards at that  

I wanted one I did not really care about and I really do not want to beat up real colts and smiths leavin em in the work truck,tool box or carryin them in the dozers or bobcat... I like my other guns 

btw just because the glock can hold 19 rounds with plus two mag bases does not mean I need to waste shots etc. I would rather have em and not need them than vice versa


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## Tom Bombadil (Mar 25, 2008)

tallpaul said:


> btw just because the glock can hold 19 rounds with plus two mag bases does not mean I need to waste shots etc. I would rather have em and not need them than vice versa


Assuming you are willing to carry a 9mm. I like .40 or bigger with a .45 usually being the caliber of choice ... except for the Glock 23. What can I say that all you Glock Haters won't rip into me for?  

Seriously, Glocks are one of those guns that you either love it or hate it. I know people (some on this board, apparently) who won't touch them and I know people that won't have anything but a Glock. Me ... I think their 9mm are fine for 9mm, I love their .40s, I think their .45 is too light in the front so too much muzzle rise between shots, and don't get me started on the 10mm.

I had a friend in the military that carried a .50 Desert Eagle. I told him that he was nuts - its too big, too heavy, it belongs in a collectors case, blah blah. He would just smile and say, "When I pull this out, everyone knows I'm serious. Just seeing it has sent people home and I don't mind NOT shooting people I don't have to." I used to love firing that thing - except for the brass coming straight back at your head. Still, everywhere we went to fire that thing, people would stop and stare. Still, I would never carry a Desert Eagle - concealed or in a hip holster.

So, to each his own. The best part about everyone having their own tastes and choices is all meeting up at the range and having an "educational exchange". Don't get to do that much since we started having kids. That is why I love reading the posts from the folks willing to explain their choices.

Thanks, y'all! Keep it coming! :goodjob:


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## Rose_Thorn (Mar 29, 2008)

i dont know much one cc but what kind of clothes do you where so no one notices that you are carrying?????


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Tom - my brother in law has a Glock 23 in .40S&W, and I have fired it along with a Glock model 19 and 21. I just don't like the Glock design, the feel of the grips, and no external hammer.

Well Bajiay, do you want a .38/ .357 revolver, semi-automatic pistol, or an exotic concealed weapon. If there is a range anywhere near you that rents out firearms, try the following calibers: 9mm parabellum (9X19mm), .38 special, .357 magnum, .40 S&W, 10mm, .44 magnum, .45 a.c.p, .45 Long Colt, or even a .32 a.c.p. round.I think that the .22LR or .22 magnum, and .25 a.c.p. rounds are too small for a CCW weapon firing beyond 10 feet.

As Cabin Fever posted above, there are many aspects of what and why you will carry a concealed weapon.

Myself, I perfer military surplus semiautomatic pistols as a CCW weapons choice. I also prefer military surplus rifles. I have a M-1 Garand, and 1903 Springfield in .30-06 springfield, amongst others in my collection. 

Clothing - In the cooler months a longer jacket will cover my shoulder holster on inside the waist band or outside the waist band leather holsters. Warmer months, I buy a larger and taller shirt, Hawaiian, dress, etc and leave it untucked. Sometimes year round, I wear a cammie blouse (camoflauge jacket for you civilians) in either desert or woodland patterns = great CCW concealment for large framed pistols. But in California in counties with less than 200,000 population - one can open carry a weapon in plain sight.
<<=================================>>

Here is the State of Kansas CCW Q and A page.

http://www.ksag.org/files/shared/CC.Brochure.pdf

For the State of Kansas beside the cost of the mandatory 8 hour range training, it is $40.00 for the County Sheriff and $110.00 to the Kansas Attorney General ($150.00 total). CCW license is good for four years, and nothing is said about any limits on the weapons you can carry...

http://www.ksag.org/files/shared/conceal.carry.FAQ.pdf


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## Rose_Thorn (Mar 29, 2008)

any one know the laws on cc for the state of IL???


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

I think that Wisconsin and Illinois are the only states that does not issue a CCW license. Here after a giggle search...

"As of 2006, two states (Wisconsin[6] and Illinois[7]) and Washington D.C.[8] have no provision for legal concealed-carry." from......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry

Could that be due to Chicago, maybe?????


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## Rose_Thorn (Mar 29, 2008)

omg that sucks whats the cost for one out there in cali radiofish??? im moving out there next year!!


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## bajiay (Apr 8, 2008)

Wow. So much to think about. Didn't realize that. Do they have a Guns For Dummies Book out there? -LOL- I work at the Sheriff's Dept. Guess I could have them go with me to the range and try out their guns they are always talking about. Thanks for all of your input guys!


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## Tom Bombadil (Mar 25, 2008)

I am sure if you ask some of the folks at work at least one or two would let you join them on the range to put some holes in some paper. Trying is the best way to decide.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Rose Thorn - It costs for an original license is $170.00 ($95 state and $75.00 county). Renewals are $72.00 per two years after the inital license. Training costs between $25.00 to $75.00 for the firearms training for initial or renewal.

The California CCW licenses are issued by County or Cities. Here is a page that shows how many CCW licenses are issued by the city and county law enforcement. If you are not going to L.A. or the Bay Area, you should be fine.

http://www.calccw.com/Forums/county-faq/810-all-cities-issued-two-year-ccws-2005-a.html

The County of San Francisco issued 10 CCW licenses in a year. The counties across the bay (Contra Costa and Alameda are nor issuing many CCW licenses. The county I am located in Humboldt - issued 1,200+ CCW licenses last year (2007) putting us in 13th place out of the 58 counties.


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## bajiay (Apr 8, 2008)

Tried out a 9mm today. Seemed kind of heavy though. Is this a good thing? What do you think of 9's?


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## K-9 (Jul 27, 2007)

Oh now you have gone and done it, you started the 9 lover/hater debate. (just kidding) Contrary to what a lot will have you believe the 9mm with good ammo is a perfectly adequate self defense round, a lot of the 9s bad rep comes from use of FMJ ammo or poorly designed HP ammo. With the good bullet designs available today, the 9s record in actual shooting is not far behind the 40 and 45. Ultimately it comes down to what you can shoot well, a well placed 9mm gold dot is far more effective than a poorly placed or miss with a 40 or 45.

Now on to your second question about the handgun you fired seeming heavy, that can be a good thing or a bad thing. A heavier gun generaly has less recoil, than a lighter gun of the same caliber, A heavier gun requires more thought in how to carry it than a lighter gun and generally the heaveier gun is larger/bulkier. For example a Beretta 92 carried in a coat pocket is going to produce a pronounced droop of the coat to that side if not counter balanced with something of near equal weight in the other pocket where as a light gun, say a Keltec P3AT would not be noticeable. This is not to say that heaveir guns can not be carried as a CCW it just means it takes more commitment and planning on your part to be able to do it comfortably. If your carry set up is not comfortable then you will not carry it so no matter how theoretically effective it is, it is useless to you if you don't have it with you. Also I recommend that you avoid the idea of the "gun of the day" cycle, in other words don't keep switching back and forth between a lot of different guns. Pick one or two that have basically the same controls and stick with those, also carry in generally the same location as much as possible. In a deadly force situation, the last thing you need to be worried about is which gun am I carrying today and where is it at. You need to build muscle memory with the draw stroke, and the manipulation of the handgun, it is hard to do this if you keep changing where you carry the gun and how the particular gun you are carrying works. Hope this helps


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## Tom Bombadil (Mar 25, 2008)

Yep, you gone and done it. :duel:

I am one of the "heavy" crowd - there are only two ways to increase the amount of energy on target - more weight or more velocity. I am one of the "more weight" crowd - I love the .300 whisper and its bigger brothers and I carry the biggest caliber I can consistently fire accurately with the heaviest rounds it will shoot.

Having said that, if 9mm is what I had to work with (NATO being NATO and all), I would find a good jacketed hollow-point with a record of good expansion. I personally like the designs with the posts in the center, but to each his own. 

And with 9mm, it will have a few more rounds in the mag - I will leave it to others to tell you how you are going to need them.


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## nathan104 (Nov 16, 2007)

Not all that I have, but the only ones I carry.

Taurus model 85 2" snubnose revolver 38 special
East German Makarov 9x18 (my favorite)
Glock 23


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## bajiay (Apr 8, 2008)

Good info, thanks guys!
Ok, so a lot of the officers have glocks, what is the difference between that and a 9mm? (I actually have tried talking to the officers about their guns but we never get to finish the conversation because of the phone ringing or I have to send them on a call.)
Yes, I know my gun smarts just aren't, but I am trying ok?! At least I do have a decent shooting ability no matter what my husband puts in my hands. I would just like to be more educated. I am getting ready to take the hunters safety course, if that makes anyone feel better!


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## Tom Bombadil (Mar 25, 2008)

What caliber Glocks are they carrying? Some people don't like the way the Glock feels in their hand and some people find they have a lot of "torque", particularly the .40 Glocks.


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

Rose_Thorn said:


> omg that sucks whats the cost for one out there in cali radiofish??? im moving out there next year!!


for a guy that is a "lover of freedom" california is not the place "I wanna be" ... I would have to be dragged there kickin n screamin to live or the money sooo insane I could do what I wanted to anyhow... 

the only freedoms that come in california have fees attached to them... unless of course you are an illegal or gay or both ifin ya really want ta hit the "lottery"...


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## bajiay (Apr 8, 2008)

TomB-I am not sure. Will have to ask when I work tomorrow. Will get back to you on that!


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## Rose_Thorn (Mar 29, 2008)

TP i know but but i like it out there and no im not illegal or the other but anyway.


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## bajiay (Apr 8, 2008)

Okay TomB, I asked the officer at work today and he was carrying a Glock-40cal. He let me hold it and it was too heavy also. He said I should get a Glock 357 cuz it is little and powerful. What do you think and what do those cost?


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## CGUARDSMAN (Dec 28, 2006)

depends on which model you get. should be around $495 i have the 40 but can get the barrel and magazines to convert mine the the .357 or 9mm


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## Tom Bombadil (Mar 25, 2008)

bajiay said:


> Okay TomB, I asked the officer at work today and he was carrying a Glock-40cal. He let me hold it and it was too heavy also. He said I should get a Glock 357 cuz it is little and powerful. What do you think and what do those cost?


You definitely want to fire the .357 before you buy it. It has a reputation for being a hot round that has a fair amount of muzzle rise on the light Glock. I have seen them for under $500 around here.


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## Jack T. (Feb 11, 2008)

bajiay said:


> Okay TomB, I asked the officer at work today and he was carrying a Glock-40cal. He let me hold it and it was too heavy also. He said I should get a Glock 357 cuz it is little and powerful. What do you think and what do those cost?


The Glock was *too* heavy??? You'll be hard pressed to find much that weighs less. Not only that, but the Glock 40 and the Glock 357Sig use the same frame and slide. . .so one is not less heavy (noticeably) than the other. 

Just because somebody has a gun and a badge doesn't mean they know Jack about firearms. :flame:


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## Tom Bombadil (Mar 25, 2008)

That is a good point - if you think the Glock .40 is too heavy, you might want to look at something like a LadySmith .38 revolver.


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## Jack T. (Feb 11, 2008)

Tom Bombadil said:


> That is a good point - if you think the Glock .40 is too heavy, you might want to look at something like a LadySmith .38 revolver.


Yup. . .or one of the Smith Scandium AirLights. . .but holy smokes the recoil on those is ferocious! Very much a "carry always, shoot only when getting killed will hurt more" gun.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

I agree with a Ladysmith .357mag (you can shoot .38 Specials in one o' these). Get a stainless steel model and you'll have enough weight for reduced recoil without being too heavy to carry. WIHH started out with one of these but switched to a Smith N-Frame .45acp revolver....there really isn't that much difference in recoil between these two wheelguns. The N-Frame is heavier however than the J-Frame Ladysmith.


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## tanksoldier (Nov 20, 2007)

bajiay said:


> Good info, thanks guys!
> Ok, so a lot of the officers have glocks, what is the difference between that and a 9mm? (I actually have tried talking to the officers about their guns but we never get to finish the conversation because of the phone ringing or I have to send them on a call.)


"Glock" is a gun manufacturer, like Toyota is a car manufacturer. Other common gun makers are Colt, Ruger, Smith & Wesson, Taurus and Sig Sauer.

Some rounds are designed for revolvers and have a rim, others are designed for pistols and do not. There is some crossover, but generally not. .32 ACP 9mm, 10mm, .40 S&W, .380 ACP and .45 ACP are pistol rounds; .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 Special and .44 Magnum are revolver rounds.

9mm is a caliber, the diameter of the bullet. These are given either in millimeters (ie: 9mm, 10mm) or in inches (ie: .32 means .32 inches, .40 means .4 inches, .45 means .45 inches, etc). .380 ACP, .38 Special and 9mm are all about the same size in diameter, but the cases are different lengths and have different amounts of powder. .380 ACP is often known as 9mm Kurtz (meaning Short) in Europe. You will often see 9mm called "9mm Luger" or "9mm Parabellum". There is a lot of historical context as to why certain bullets and cartridges are the way they are and called what they are called, but don't worry about that too much. 

Generally speaking .380 is the least powerful, then .38 Special and then 9mm but you can have a .38 Special with a hot load shoot harder than a weakly loaded 9mm... and then there are different bullet weights for each caliber too. Bullets are weighed in "grains" abbreviated "gr". A grain is 1/437.5 of an ounce. 9mm can be had most often in 115gr, 124gr and 147gr bullet weights. Variation is less common in the other calibers: .380 is usually about 90gr and .38 Special is found most commonly in 158gr or 125 gr though others exist. .357 Magnum is the same as .38 Special, they made the case longer and put more powder in it. That's not technically correct but will serve well enough for this discussion. You can shoot .357 in a .38 revolver, but not vis-versa. It comes in .110gr, 125gr and 158gr loadings usually.

The other calibers are similar: .40 S&W is a short version of the 10mm, .45 GAP is a shortened .45 ACP which is itself a shortened version of the old .45 Colt revolver cartridge without the rim. They all have at least two or three bullet weights available.

The issue of bullet weights comes down to your preference and what you shoot well. The difference between 125gr and 158gr in .38 Special may not seem like much but you will notice it on the range when you shoot. Some guns shoot a certain weight of bullet better due to their design. You have to find out what works for you and your gun.

How "hot" the load is also varies. "Hotter" doesn't always mean more powder, sometimes it's a faster burning powder but in either case it increases the chamber pressure and pushes the bullet faster. There are certain specifications for each caliber. There are standard loads, then there are loads marked +P and +P+, the "P" originally stood for a "police" load but most are available to the public now. So, to put it all together, a 115gr 9mm +P+ is a light bullet with lots of "oomph" behind it. I carry the "Federal 9BPLE" 115gr 9mm +P+ load myself. Federal is a manufacturer like Toyota or Glock, and 9BPLE is their name for that particular round. It's an old law-enforcement round, surpassed now by better technology but inexpensive and adequate for my purposes. 



> Yes, I know my gun smarts just aren't, but I am trying ok?!


You're doing just fine. The only dumb question is the one that went unasked.

In a lighter gun recoil will be more of a problem. You have to be able to practice with the gun and shoot it well enough to save your life if/when. Strength seems to be an issue here. If a Glock is too heavy to use then recoil from a .40 may be unmanageable.

Some people buy two guns of the same type and manual of arms, one lightweight and one all-steel, so they can practice with the heavy one and carry the light one... the heavy version also serves as a reserve gun. That doesn't seem like the best solution in this case.

Revolvers are simple to operate, but have fewer rounds and often a very heavy trigger pull. Pistols hold more bullets and often have easier triggers but can have a more complex manual-of-arms. Smaller guns are often harder to use than larger ones. They recoil more and are harder to get a good grip on, and they usually have smaller sights. The 2" revolvers like S&W's J-frames or the Taurus M85 are often called "expert's guns" because they really are hard for a beginner to use effectively. Don't buy the smallest gun you can find as your first gun. Buy one that fits your hand well and that you enjoy shooting.

I would suggest Taurus's "Millennium Pro" series of pistols, in 9mm. If the recoil from 9mm is too much they can be had in .380 and .32, and the 9mm versions can be found with a titanium slide making them even lighter. They are light, compact, simple to operate, fairly high quality, inexpensive and seem to fit smaller hands well. One issue: Taurus did have quality control issues with an earlier version called simply the "Millennium" series. The issues were fixed in the "Millennium Pro" but make sure you know which you are looking at and buying. The Pros will always say "Millennium Pro" on the side.

Don't be ashamed if you end up with a .32 ACP gun, it's still better than a sharp stick. Winchester makes a very good "Silvertip" round in .32 ACP. 

If you prefer revolvers and .38 Special is too much there is a round called .32 H&R Magnum. Lighter bullet but much more "oomph" make it more-or-less equal to a lower power .38 Special but with slightly less recoil. Ruger and Taurus both make revolvers for it.

Don't, however, sell yourself short. I know some petite women who handle full-size .45 M1911s... it's more about training and practice than anything. Listen to those with experience and consider their advice but in the end buy the gun that YOU like and that YOU shoot well and don't worry if others say too big to small or wrong color. If it isn't right for you you'll know after a bit and you can try something else. Most people go thru several guns before they settle on what works best for them, and even then they sometimes change after years. It's part of owning guns.

For myself I carry a Sig Sauer P225 and load it with the 9mm 115gr +P+ round from Federal mentioned above.


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## wogglebug (May 22, 2004)

> You can shoot .357 in a .38 revolver, but not vis-versa.


Whoops. Little slip there. Just exactly the reverse. 
.38 Special is the older, shorter cartridge, less powerful brother of the .357 Magnum; and can be used in .357 revolvers. The converse does not apply. While it's less often done, the same relationship applies with .44 Special (older, shorter cartridge, less powerful) and .44 Magnum - you can use the Special in the Magnum, but not the opposite.


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## bajiay (Apr 8, 2008)

So much info! Thanks ya'll! I actually printed a lot of this info out so I have a reference. And yes, I am not very strong. Have been fighting a terminal illness and it has really affected the bones & muscles in my arms. I'm a wimp BUT I'm still here! So, something light but with kickbutt power is what I need. And, is it "normal" to get antsy when shooting guns? I mean, I get all excited and just want to blow the target to pieces! I think I'm getting addicted! I'm really good too!


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

I have permits for KS and FL. I usually carry a Les Baer "Stinger" (officer's frame, Commanders slide) in .45ACP in a Sparks VMII IWB holster. I have it set up to mirror my IDPA pistol.

It's the "little" one:









When I can't conceal that, I carry a little SIG230 in a Sparks VMII.

Chuck


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## CGUARDSMAN (Dec 28, 2006)

well i decided something for the front pocket was in order since summer is coming and shorts will be what i wear so hear it is a kel-tec p32


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Excellent choice, I've carried one for years with Silvertips. I usually cram it straight in the pocket and blow the lint out every evening.


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## Philbee (Jul 5, 2004)

I have shot my friends Glock Model 36, sub compact .45 ACP and I was very surprised at how easy it was to shoot. It did not kick nearly as hard as I expected and the gun is quite small for a .45. I am getting used to the Glocks and I'm really impressed with the company. A friend of mine told me that his police friends have told him that the Glocks in the .40 S&W caliber wear out quickly. I questioned the very good gun shop near where I live and the statement of the .40 S&W Glocks was confirmed. I was shown the reason why by looking at a opened up a .40 Smith & Wesson M&P. There are a couple of steel fingers at the back of the Smith & Wesson but the Glock's fingers are not made of steel.
The M&P feels very good in the hand and it has adjustable grips so that it will fit almost any hand. The Glock has a square shape but the Smith & Wesson feels very comfortable. The trigger on the Smith & Wesson is very nice too. S&W seems to make very nice trigger actions on their handguns.


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

well all this talk reminded me that I wanted another ccw... I was lookin and got side tracked... I saw a Glock 19 cheap and local... I could not pass it up
NIB with a holster for 4 bills- I like it! I have been carrying it and its small enough and the 15 rounds should be adequate ... I ordered a bunch of mags for it and the ones for the 17 glock fit it also... I hate that the dems might win and the new AWB is looming... the mag prices are already climbing... I should be set for high cap pistols anyhow...


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

Philbee said:


> IThere are a couple of steel fingers at the back of the Smith & Wesson but the Glock's fingers are not made of steel.


What are the "fingers" of which you speak?

BTW the smith M&P is really nice- I would have gotten one but at 39.00 a pop for the mags I went glock who was at the time 17.00 aeach for new- they are climbing now though as likely will be the others... I found some new gun take outs for 13.00 and grabbed 19 of em 

I have not seen nor gotten deals like that for the smiths... and I own a few smith auto's albeit the older models which have and do serve me well


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## Jack T. (Feb 11, 2008)

tallpaul said:


> I should be set for high cap pistols anyhow...


*Standard* capacity, man. . .standard capacity.  

Unless you want to call a six-shooter, which was designed to hold six rounds, a "low capacity" handgun.


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## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

Kel-Tec P3AT (.380) in my pocket and a Ruger 9mm in the truck. While walking around the woods I put my Taurus .38 special in a hip holster, every other round is snake shot.


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## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

Kel-Tec P3AT (.380) in my pocket and a Ruger 9mm in the truck. While walking around the woods I put my Taurus .38 special in a hip holster, every other round is snake shot.


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## RoughRider (May 16, 2008)

99% of the time I carry a Colt Govt. Model .45 with an adequate backup gun (usually also .45 but sometimes a .44, depending on the season).

R.R.

"You are no more armed because you posess a handgun than you are a musician because you own a piano." - Jeff Cooper


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