# Who's killing who with guns in the US?



## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

The problem is clear when you look at the stats but why won't politicians address the problem and leave everyone else alone? If you remove black on black gun murders, 75% of gun murders disappear. If you also remove black on white gun murders, 90% of gun murders disappear. Without these murders, our national gun murder numbers compare very well with much of the rest of the world.

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-ne...uarters-of-all-gun-murders-disappear_05072014


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I'll just sit and wait for the liberal cry of "racism!". It's an "Emperor has no clothes" story everyone is afraid of.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

So I am curious what is your solution then Poppy? Is this just to take another knock at black people or did you have some constructive reason for this post?


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Nice 'source' 

Do your own research on the stats. This guy is pulling them out of his :flameproofundies:


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Tiempo said:


> Nice 'source'
> 
> Do your own research on the stats. This guy is pulling them out of his :flameproofundies:


Really? I'm talking about homicide rates. Whites are much more likely to die from suicide using guns than blacks but the black homicide rates are through the roof. Here's a few graphs.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/national/gun-deaths/


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

I'm sure thats all true so what do we do about it? Blacks are here, they are part of our society we can't 'send them back to Africa'. We have to play the cards we are dealt.

IMO we just have to insist on our individual constitutionally guaranteed rights.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> So I am curious what is your solution then Poppy? Is this just to take another knock at black people or did you have some constructive reason for this post?


Don't start that racist carp with me. It's a diversion from the topic by people afraid to confront the real problem. The fact (I know you hate facts) is that without black on black homicide our gun murder rate is very low. Politicians need to focus on murder in the inner cities and leave the rest of us alone. The answer? I'm not sure. More gun laws aren't the answer because we've tried that but it is all politicians ever propose. It isn't even a black issue. Black murder rates among rural blacks is probably no higher than whites. It is an inner city culture issue of irresponsible parents, including fathers that sire kids the don't stick around to raise them and mothers who have multiple children by different fathers and gangs.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I think that the purpose of the article is that the so called gun violence is not caused by the gun but by underlying social problems. If we focus on the gun we are ignoring the social problem which will then escalate. Four of the Black men I work with have been shot. There has to be a reason for this and it is not the availability of guns. I can not think of anyone in the town I live in who does not own a firearm nor can I remember anyone who has been shot unless they were in the service. Obviously it is not the firearm causing the violence. If we deny that there is a problem in the black community for fear of being judged racist we are burying our heads in the sand. If not the gun the next cause is poverty, but even that is a lame excuse. My parents generation went through the depression. Povery was extreme. There is a picture of my mother and my aunt Sally wearing flower sacks as dresses. Her father died when she was ten and there were six kids in the family. They knew poverty. But they didn't kill anyone. I have my own theories, but I'd like to hear someone elses.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

..............And , most of the guns used in black on black murders are probably stolen...........doesn't Chicago have very strict gun control laws ? , fordy


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

The government is only using gun violence as a reason to take away our guns.. It really has nothing to do with it.. They want our guns gone because they fear we'd use them against them if they started to do everything with this country they really want to do.

If there was never a mass shooting, or the murder rate with guns was almost non existent, they would still try and find reason to take away our guns..


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

It is a culture issue, not a gun issue. Things have become acceptable, normal within some sub-cultures that should not be normal or acceptable. 

It isn't a problem that the federal government can ever solve! There has been program after program, good money thrown after bad. 

I think what would help is reform of the housing entitlements. An 18 year old girl with a baby can get a rent-free apartment (and TANF and SNAP and more), which often becomes the hangout/base of operations for other young people up to no good. Let these "wayward" girls and their offspring remain under their family's roof and be the family's problem, then there is at least some incentive to change the behavior. 

I think if there was a strong effort made with collaboration between city, maybe county, govts and activists from the private sector, some change for the better could be made. One bad neighborhood at a time, at the local level.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

People who have or earn the least amount of money in the United States commit the overwhelming majority of gun crimes.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

I still don't get the object of the thread. Is the point to make you feel superior because you are white? Is it to lament the fact you can't "send them all back to Africa"? Is there any legitimate point beyond race baiting? No one has raised any so far.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Nope. None of that Im white, Im better. The thread is expounding a problem in the Black community. Not to put down the Black community, but to really understand the problem. No one mentioned "sending them back to Africa" but you. Nor is there any race baiting. I think these are legitimate questions effecting our society and should be discussed. I really think that liberals could care less if the Black community is killing themselves as long as they can be used for their political objectives.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

JJ Grandits said:


> Nope. None of that Im white, Im better. The thread is expounding a problem in the Black community. Not to put down the Black community, but to really understand the problem. No one mentioned "sending them back to Africa" but you. Nor is there any race baiting. I think these are legitimate questions effecting our society and should be discussed. I really think that liberals could care less if the Black community is killing themselves as long as they can be used for their political objectives.


Might want to take a wander back up through the thread on the "back to Africa" thing. 

I am curious how you think a bunch of white folks discussing this here is going to solve what you say yourself is a problem that it is only suffered by the black community?


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

................When I did a google on same races killing each other I came up with only (2) specifics , (1)black on black violence in several large government multi story housing projects in several different cities , and , (2)the latino situation mainly in LA where different gangs execute hits on each other's members ! Then , there is a third example where mainly white on white killings occur between motorcyle gangs but the number of deaths is statistically not important when compared to the other two situations . 
.................So , the two largest minorities are basically , the only examples of where two members of the same race kill each other for no reason except drugs , money and gang affiliation . And , given that the illegtimate birth rate among black females is 70% , it would seem to indicate that the lack of a father figure in the home is a Major contributing factor to this ongoing problem in the affected communities . , fordy


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Patchouli said:


> Might want to take a wander back up through the thread on the "back to Africa" thing.
> 
> I am curious how you think a bunch of white folks discussing this here is going to solve what you say yourself is a problem that it is only suffered by the black community?


So you don't think whites can or should help solve a "black" problem??? 

It's everybody's problem. Everybody who pays taxes especially. Society is paying for a lot of cops, prisons, public assistance, etc. that wouldn't be needed if the sub-culture could evolve into something better. And beyond the cost in dollars, there is a high cost in human dignity and quality of life.


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## Win07_351 (Dec 7, 2008)

Gun grabbing is an agenda that cares very little for who is really committing the crimes.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> I still don't get the object of the thread. Is the point to make you feel superior because you are white? Is it to lament the fact you can't "send them all back to Africa"? Is there any legitimate point beyond race baiting? No one has raised any so far.


Still dodging the issue I see. Hillary Clinton said this week in an interview that gun ownership needs to be reined in and Obama, along with many other dems, has said the same thing. The point of the post is they are lying and ignoring the real problem. Why aren't they coming up with ideas to help prevent inner city gun crime instead of lumping average gun owners into the group they want to reign in? You know full well it is because someone will call them racists and it might cost them some votes. I feel very confident that no one will be killed in a gun murder in this county or within 100 miles surrounding this county in the next month. Do we need our guns regulated more? I am also confident that 25 people will be murdered by guns in Cook County this Saturday night. There's the problem.


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## notwyse (Feb 16, 2014)

Well. I am sure I am painting a target on my forehead....but it seems to me that it is more of a socioeconomic problem rather than race. I live surrounded by Navajo nation....and I can tell you it can be VERY violent. And for a rural area we sure have our share of cop killings.


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> So I am curious what is your solution then Poppy? Is this just to take another knock at black people or did you have some constructive reason for this post?


he just asked a question, he did not offer a solution. Maybe you have one? I sure don't. 



What is the crime/shooting rate among church going people?


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

We may look at this as a rural vs urban issue as well. The fact is though that urban areas generally have stiffer gun control yet they still have more shootings.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> I am curious how you think a bunch of white folks discussing this here is going to solve what you say yourself is a problem that it is only suffered by the black community?


Maybe we can start by electing people who will dismantle the welfare state that has gone a long way to destroy the black family and is starting to make inroads on white and Latino ones. The out-of-wedlock birthrate in the white community today is probably what it was 20 years ago in the black community ... this isn't going to remain a "problem that is only suffered by the black community" for long. 

We need fathers (both black and white) to marry the mothers of their children and stick around to raise their kids. You know -- the way it used to be.

I can't blame an impoverished pregnant teenager for deciding that Uncle Sam would make a better partner than an 18-year-old kid in saggy pants ... but shame on us for giving her that option. :nono:


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Oggie said:


> People who have or earn the least amount of money in the United States commit the overwhelming majority of gun crimes.


I doubt that- most professional religious earn the least money, the Amish are probably right down at the bottom. Even now women, who uniquely earn less, are less likely to kill. I imagine that most immigrants are at the bottom of the income scale, yet I also suspect that they are less like to kill. Artist are right at the bottom, yet I doubt there is a rash of artists murdering people. Lots of division and catagories to contradict the idea of poverty and violence being one and the same.
I suspect that those who murder are just people who do not feel responsible for their actions against others and who have a bad work ethic and who confuse the power holding a gun gives with the power they have as people.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

MO_cows said:


> So you don't think whites can or should help solve a "black" problem???
> 
> It's everybody's problem. Everybody who pays taxes especially. Society is paying for a lot of cops, prisons, public assistance, etc. that wouldn't be needed if the sub-culture could evolve into something better. And beyond the cost in dollars, there is a high cost in human dignity and quality of life.


I don't think there is any interest whatsoever in solving the problem. I think this is all about pointing the finger at another race to make some people feel better about their own. 

Our current justice system is a joke and the costs of our insane incarceration system don't have anything at all to do with our true crime rates. They have everything to do with making a whole lot of money off of jailing a large chunk of our population and the poor and minorities are bearing the brunt of that in large part because of entitled and ignorant white people who believe all this bunkum about evil and scary black and brown people. 

You really want to fix the system and save some money? First do some homework into the reality behind our prison system. Second stop passing on the myths.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Tabitha said:


> he just asked a question, he did not offer a solution. Maybe you have one? I sure don't.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the crime/shooting rate among church going people?


Well I don't know but around here every person that has shot another person in the last 20 years that I know of was white and a Baptist.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> Well I don't know but around here every person that has shot another person in the last 20 years that I know of was white and a Baptist.


Where's here?


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

willow_girl said:


> Maybe we can start by electing people who will dismantle the welfare state that has gone a long way to destroy the black family and is starting to make inroads on white and Latino ones. The out-of-wedlock birthrate in the white community today is probably what it was 20 years ago in the black community ... this isn't going to remain a "problem that is only suffered by the black community" for long.
> 
> We need fathers (both black and white) to marry the mothers of their children and stick around to raise their kids. You know -- the way it used to be.
> 
> I can't blame an impoverished pregnant teenager for deciding that Uncle Sam would make a better partner than an 18-year-old kid in saggy pants ... but shame on us for giving her that option. :nono:


Very well said! That 18 year old kid wouldn't be wearing saggy pants if he had to support his family.

Until our politicians, specifically dems, have the backbone to take away the incentives for fatherless homes, nothing will change. 

Right now, there are two obvious but selfish reasons the status quo won't change. First, a dependent/reliable voting base. Second, the ability of liberals to feel good about themselves for caring. For them, caring is enough.


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## morgaineotm (Apr 5, 2010)

bottom line, more people are killed in auto accidents (especially DUI) than with guns, yet no one says we should limit car sales. Violence is a problem, why all the unhappy young men who feel they need to express themself by killing? No way to truly keep guns out of the hands of the unlawful, and no one wants to admit that society is starting to unravel (except maybe some of the folks on this list). No easy answers, but don't fall into the "baffle them with BS" rhetoric that government and media are throwing around


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

where I want to said:


> Where's here?


Obviously far away from any inner city. He does have a point. White Baptists are well know for committing murder.ound:ound:ound:ound:ound: The things leftists will say still amazes me.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

poppy said:


> Obviously far away from any inner city. He does have a point. White Baptists are well know for committing murder.ound:ound:ound:ound:ound: The things leftists will say still amazes me.


Yep, those Baptist and Amish are like the Sunni and Shia. The Amish are at a real disadvantage though, slow getaways.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Patchouli said:


> I don't think there is any interest whatsoever in solving the problem. I think this is all about pointing the finger at another race to make some people feel better about their own.
> 
> Our current justice system is a joke and the costs of our insane incarceration system don't have anything at all to do with our true crime rates. They have everything to do with making a whole lot of money off of jailing a large chunk of our population and the poor and minorities are bearing the brunt of that in large part because of entitled and ignorant white people who believe all this bunkum about evil and scary black and brown people.
> 
> You really want to fix the system and save some money? First do some homework into the reality behind our prison system. Second stop passing on the myths.


It isn't bunkum that young males, mostly black and latino, are committing the most violent crimes. The ones causing the problems have a screwed up value system, no respect for others or for life itself. Too many times if you don't lock them up for life, they go right back to their bad habits. In Kansas City, there was a recent shooting caught on surveillance where a guy walked up to a car at a gas pump and just started shooting into it. It appeared to be unprovoked and no link between shooter and victims. He killed a father and shot his 10 year old son who was in the car with him. That kid will never walk again. The shooter just got out of jail weeks before this incident. So execution or keeping them behind bars until they are too old to cause trouble seems to be the only way to protect the rest of society. 

Big brothers/Big sisters and other such organizations have probably done more good to help young people stay away from the wrong track in life than all the government programs put together. So let's keep spending the taxpayer money on prisons as long as we need to, because that is where it is most effective.


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## defenestrate (Aug 23, 2005)

If you want these murders to go down, take 100% of the money budgeted to fight "The War on Drugs", and invest it in modern, quality educational and medical facilities in the poorest neighborhoods in America, along with a real public works program repairing and improving the infrastructure of the nation. Improvements should focus on putting broadband and some manner of computer or thin web client in every home that wants it. If the drugs regulated by the DEA ceased to be totally illegal, the profit motive would go way down. Our drug policies are used to oppress minorities as well as the mentally ill. If you want the gang killings to stop, stop funding agencies that ensure the livelihoods of gangs.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

I forget the name of the sociologist who over a decade ago compared American gang culture to African militant warlord culture however I do recall that he said if our gang culture lacked guns, knives and machetes as used by the warlord militant cultures elsewhere , concrete blocks, garrotes , fire bombs etc. would be used by our urban gangs for members to "make their bones" and increase their subculture status as long as lack of positive social influences existed.

He said as long as the subculture existed that glamorized the act of random killing and elevated status within the incarceration social environment factor of our sub cultures, regardless of the weapons available, it would continue.

Sadly he was correct taking into consideration this past years rise and various subculture names given to the "knockout game" perpetrated by many roving gangs of inner city youth and young adults. They used fists , not other lethal weapons to achieve levels of lethality almost as bad as the "bones making" status killing factions have.

Life is not always pretty but thankfully we have some aged members of those unappealing sectors of life who survived the malignant social factors they passed through and now perform outreach efforts to get those who have already entered the sub cultures out before they are in too deep and keep younger folks from entering the less desirable sub cultures at all with more constructive options.


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

I don't see it as 'THE' solution but I think the public needs to be more aware of child development. The lack of conscience or care/concern for life is commonly caused by a lack of, loss of, or insecure bond that a child needs to create with his/her primary care giver. The window to damage or impair a child's conscience is in the first 6 years. While others in this thread have pointed to the lack of fathers I feel that it's more likely the lack of parenting from a single mom who is working multiple jobs or ridiculous hours. Perhaps it is just poor bonding due to a bad parenting example, uninterested parent, immature parent, uneducated/ unprepared parent.
Adding child development curriculum to public education could help.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Patchouli said:


> Might want to take a wander back up through the thread on the "back to Africa" thing.
> 
> I am curious how you think a bunch of white folks discussing this here is going to solve what you say yourself is a problem that it is only suffered by the black community?


 Nothing wrong with white folks discussing this. Black leaders don't address it, except to garner a little publicity.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Here's an interesting article explaining who is shooting who. Surprisingly small numbers of shooters doing a high percentage of the shooting.

_The data in the new paper is equally fascinating, and on one level, as you might expect, quite troubling. To begin with, the dramatic disparities the rates of nonfatal gunshot injury: overall it&#8217;s 46.5 per 100,000 for the city as a whole from 2006-2012. It&#8217;s 1.62 per 100,000 for whites; 28.72 for Hispanics, and 112.83 for blacks._
_ For all males, it&#8217;s 44.68 per 100,000; 239.77 for black males, and for black males from 18-34 it&#8217;s 599.65. As Papachristos and co-authors Christopher Wildeman and Elizabeth Roberto point out, that&#8217;s a staggering one in 200._

http://www.chicagomag.com/city-life...Big-Numbers-But-a-Surprisingly-Small-Network/

I'm wondering if such a small number of miscreants were surrounded by law abiding people allowed to have guns, Chicago, Detroit, NY, etc., would they be shooting with such abandon.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

poppy said:


> The problem is clear when you look at the stats but why won't politicians address the problem and leave everyone else alone? If you remove black on black gun murders, 75% of gun murders disappear. If you also remove black on white gun murders, 90% of gun murders disappear. Without these murders, our national gun murder numbers compare very well with much of the rest of the world.
> 
> http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-ne...uarters-of-all-gun-murders-disappear_05072014


FWIW, most major anti gun legislation, in recent years, centered around assault weapons, with multi round ammo clips.

Murder with assault weapons is a white crime, not a black one.

Our prisons are already filled with blacks who commit homicide, with guns. What is the answer to reduce this? A big part of the problem, is that they have guns.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

plowjockey said:


> FWIW, most major anti gun legislation, in recent years, centered around assault weapons, with multi round ammo clips.
> 
> Murder with assault weapons is a white crime, not a black one.
> 
> ...


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Sorry, you are totally wrong. Having guns is not a big part of the problem. Thinking it is a big part of the problem is the problem. How does having guns cause violent crime? I own a number of firearms so with your logic I should have a violent history. Matter of fact, Im also White and Baptist. Not all violence is performed with a gun. Physical beatings and stabbings are also violent activities. Recently in Buffalo a 13 year old boy was killed by another 13 year old boy over a smart phone. No gun was involved. There is a culture that has no respect for property or life and it is tearing our cities apart. The worst of it is that our media glamorizes the Gangsta lifestyle showing it a way to satify immediate wants but not showing the consquences. As I said before I have many Black friends at work and I question the violence in their neighborhoods. They live behind barred windows, locked doors, and it seems like everyone has a Pit Bull. They have a very close knit community and the knowledge of who the real bad guys are is pretty widespread. When I ask how this is tolerated I was told that "Snitches wear stitches and end up in ditches". I can't understand that. This is a social problem, a cultural problem, a psychological problem, but not a gun problem. If a drunk driver kills someone you don't blame the car. The same goes with poverty. Poverty does not cause crime. Believe it or not, in my quiet little White Baptist rural world there is a lot of poverty too. It may lead to theft for some easy money but nobody is getting shot. Why do cities like Chicago or Detroit have so much violence when cities of the same size have so much less? Buffalo NY is something like the second poorest city in America. It has its problems, but using the belief that poverty causes crime we should be stacking corpses in the street. was the killing of the boy mentioned a result of poverty or a result of morality? Actually Buffalo is a pretty cool place. Inspite of its poverty it is known for its charity. The other side of poverty is that it allows you to empathize with others. It's s drinking town with a football problem. If we are going to ignore the real causes of this problem and fall back on the basic political and media hype in order to understand it nothing will happen except more violence.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

I


JJ Grandits said:


> Sorry, you are totally wrong. Having guns is not a big part of the problem. Thinking it is a big part of the problem is the problem. How does having guns cause violent crime? I own a number of firearms so with your logic I should have a violent history. Matter of fact, Im also White and Baptist. Not all violence is performed with a gun. Physical beatings and stabbings are also violent activities. Recently in Buffalo a 13 year old boy was killed by another 13 year old boy over a smart phone. No gun was involved. There is a culture that has no respect for property or life and it is tearing our cities apart. The worst of it is that our media glamorizes the Gangsta lifestyle showing it a way to satify immediate wants but not showing the consquences. As I said before I have many Black friends at work and I question the violence in their neighborhoods. They live behind barred windows, locked doors, and it seems like everyone has a Pit Bull. They have a very close knit community and the knowledge of who the real bad guys are is pretty widespread. When I ask how this is tolerated I was told that "Snitches wear stitches and end up in ditches". I can't understand that. This is a social problem, a cultural problem, a psychological problem, but not a gun problem. If a drunk driver kills someone you don't blame the car. The same goes with poverty. Poverty does not cause crime. Believe it or not, in my quiet little White Baptist rural world there is a lot of poverty too. It may lead to theft for some easy money but nobody is getting shot. Why do cities like Chicago or Detroit have so much violence when cities of the same size have so much less? Buffalo NY is something like the second poorest city in America. It has its problems, but using the belief that poverty causes crime we should be stacking corpses in the street. was the killing of the boy mentioned a result of poverty or a result of morality? Actually Buffalo is a pretty cool place. Inspite of its poverty it is known for its charity. The other side of poverty is that it allows you to empathize with others. It's s drinking town with a football problem. If we are going to ignore the real causes of this problem and fall back on the basic political and media hype in order to understand it nothing will happen except more violence.


Pretty simple to me.

If I was going to do great harm to someone and I had a baseball bat and an gun - I'd use the gun. It's safer and easier to use.

Apparently, I'm not alone with this logic.

FWIW Buffalo NY is number 10 in most dangerous cities in the U.S.

http://xfinity.comcast.net/slideshow/news-forbesdangerouscities2012/2/

It's never mentioned, but Chicago has some relatively decent areas, where even white people will go after dark.

Detroit also, though, the pickings are a bit slimmer.

http://www.detroit.com/nightlife/


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

po boy said:


> plowjockey said:
> 
> 
> > FWIW, most major anti gun legislation, in recent years, centered around assault weapons, with multi round ammo clips.
> ...


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I heard that #10 thing too. Im in the city pretty regularly. Their broadcast news and newspaper is mine also. I have a hard time believing that statistic. If they are #10 who is #11? Either way I stand by my post. Believe as you will.


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## Vash (Jan 19, 2014)

plowjockey said:


> po boy said:
> 
> 
> > True and I'm totally against all assault weapons bans.
> ...


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

JJ Grandits said:


> I heard that #10 thing too. Im in the city pretty regularly. Their broadcast news and newspaper is mine also. I have a hard time believing that statistic. If they are #10 who is #11? Either way I stand by my post. Believe as you will.


No doubt Buffalo is a great city, with larger than usual crime problems, typical of many, now days.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

gweny said:


> I don't see it as 'THE' solution but I think the public needs to be more aware of child development. The lack of conscience or care/concern for life is commonly caused by a lack of, loss of, or insecure bond that a child needs to create with his/her primary care giver. The window to damage or impair a child's conscience is in the first 6 years. While others in this thread have pointed to the lack of fathers I feel that it's more likely the lack of parenting from a single mom who is working multiple jobs or ridiculous hours. Perhaps it is just poor bonding due to a bad parenting example, uninterested parent, immature parent, uneducated/ unprepared parent.
> Adding child development curriculum to public education could help.


I know that is a popular thought but I come from a time when at least people of my parent's age were quite familiar with orphanages and being farmed out as child help. And they did not develop into violent people, even when suffering a pretty abusive childhood.

I think there has been to much time spent, culturally speaking, on trying to fix the failures of society rather than on providing reinforcement for the more successful members. It has lead to the idea that as long as an individual is pursuing their own happyiness it is sufficient. That individual respect is more important that community obligations.

We need much more "father of the year" celebrations and a whole lot less " been sober two years" celebrations. People need to be told what a good person is from early childhood so they can have pride in it when they achieve it rather than letting every child figure it out for themselves. They can leave quite a wreck behind them when wisdom finally arrive at age 50.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Patchouli said:


> I still don't get the object of the thread. Is the point to make you feel superior because you are white? Is it to lament the fact you can't "send them all back to Africa"? Is there any legitimate point beyond race baiting? No one has raised any so far.


I think you need to read more critically, without a pre-conceived bias.

You'll then find what you claim to be looking for.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

plowjockey said:


> po boy said:
> 
> 
> > True and I'm totally against all assault weapons bans.
> ...


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Our own U.S. Constitution, creates the conundrum. 

"Shall not be infringed" applies also, to our fellow inner city citizens, who keep guns, so they can shoot other Americans.

Why they shoot everybody, we may not agree with or even understand, but it is their right to have guns. The Constitution never stated "unless".

We really can't have it both ways.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

plowjockey said:


> Our own U.S. Constitution, creates the conundrum.
> 
> "Shall not be infringed" applies also, to our fellow inner city citizens, who keep guns, so they can shoot other Americans.
> 
> ...


I know many city citizens who own firearms and have not shot anyone. The SOLE PURPOSE of the second amendment was to ensure an armed population who could overthrow the government if needed. It guarantees our freedom.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

JJ Grandits said:


> I know many city citizens who own firearms and have not shot anyone. The SOLE PURPOSE of the second amendment was to ensure an armed population who could overthrow the government if needed. It guarantees our freedom.


As do I.

So, should we regulate guns, away from those who may do harm?


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

defenestrate said:


> If you want these murders to go down, take 100% of the money budgeted to fight "The War on Drugs", and invest it in modern, quality educational and medical facilities in the poorest neighborhoods in America, along with a real public works program repairing and improving the infrastructure of the nation. Improvements should focus on putting broadband and some manner of computer or thin web client in every home that wants it. If the drugs regulated by the DEA ceased to be totally illegal, the profit motive would go way down. Our drug policies are used to oppress minorities as well as the mentally ill. If you want the gang killings to stop, stop funding agencies that ensure the livelihoods of gangs.


Again, it has been tried over and over and it does not work. Anything new in those neighborhoods is destroyed in a few years. For some reason, they do not want or tolerate success. Black kids who succeed in school are ridiculed by the other kids. The life of those big high rise brick apartment houses in Chicago used to be 10 years. Ten years and they had to be torn down and replaced. How hard do you have to work to destroy a new brick apartment building to the point it is uninhabitable in 10 short years? Any business in those neighborhoods can count on being robbed often. Would you invest in one and be willing to work in it? Put in new sewers and they steal the manhole covers to sell for scrap.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I think solutions have to grow out of the troubled community. Anything imposed upon it from the outside, however well-meaning, is likely to be a misguided effort and probably a waste of resources.

A society will function best when it requires all able-bodied people to work to get what they need to provide for themselves and their children. Any time it creates alternate routes to survival, it weakens the fabric of the society, as people will be less productive than they would be otherwise. Meanwhile, others will have to work even harder to take care of them. 

As a side benefit, people who work all day have less energy left with which to get into mischief. And I've noticed that people tend to take better care of things they buy with money they've earned than things that are merely given to them.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

where I want to said:


> Where's here?


Rural Bible belt America.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

tarbe said:


> I think you need to read more critically, without a pre-conceived bias.
> 
> You'll then find what you claim to be looking for.


Because there was no pre-conceived bias in the posting of this thread. I think a quick post search will answer that question.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

plowjockey said:


> FWIW, most major anti gun legislation, in recent years, centered around assault weapons, with multi round ammo clips.
> 
> Murder with assault weapons is a white crime, not a black one.
> 
> Our prisons are already filled with blacks who commit homicide, with guns. What is the answer to reduce this? A big part of the problem, is that they have guns.


Black gangs seem to like Mac 10 's and Kel-techs that have been modified to be full auto instead of big, bulky "assault" rifles. Since these "assault" rifles these few white shooters used were not fully automatic, it appears that the blacks have superior fire power and much better concealment. The answer is loaded open carry, no permit needed. Any conviction of a violent crime, no guns for you. The second part to a solution is that the black community needs to step up and support their kids. Not enough are! Ever listen to some rap lyrics? That is what their aspiring to become! Their told by their friends and family that prison isn't so bad. Not all, but lots, never even seem to try to choose the path to a lifetime career, they choose the path of quick and easy. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong!


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

where I want to said:


> I know that is a popular thought but I come from a time when at least people of my parent's age were quite familiar with orphanages and being farmed out as child help. And they did not develop into violent people, even when suffering a pretty abusive childhood.
> 
> I think there has been to much time spent, culturally speaking, on trying to fix the failures of society rather than on providing reinforcement for the more successful members. It has lead to the idea that as long as an individual is pursuing their own happyiness it is sufficient. That individual respect is more important that community obligations.
> 
> We need much more "father of the year" celebrations and a whole lot less " been sober two years" celebrations. People need to be told what a good person is from early childhood so they can have pride in it when they achieve it rather than letting every child figure it out for themselves. They can leave quite a wreck behind them when wisdom finally arrive at age 50.


As a former orphan/ foster kid that actually lived in one of those orphanages after witnessing my mothers murder I know what it is to have the deck stacked against you. If you check the statistics it's a miracle I haven't killed anybody. It truly is a miracle that I survived at all in all honesty. I've looked up a few kids I remembered from the orphanage (in inner city Chicago) as an adult only to learn just how lucky I am. See, when you've lived it you know you've got 2 paths to choose from and the way out is very, very difficult. But since I could see that the other route led to jails, institutions, and death (most can't see that or don't have a reason to care); I choose to bust my ----- to get to a better life. Choosing that path without guidance or representation is rare. Choosing that path with little to no concern for life is impossible. 
The key is the concern for life/others/ a conscience. It doesn't matter who the bond is with; Be it mom, dad, grandma, or even a foster parent. Please google Reactive Attachment Disorder. This is how violent murderers without a conscience are created. That bond is the first and most important lesson we will ever learn. I know because I have lived it. I have spent my life studying and learning about it so I could save myself.
I'm not trying to fix society. Adding early child psych development curriculum to schools certainly wouldn't fix all of society! Perhaps though.... Perhaps it could help?
It would've helped me. Maybe it could've helped my bio-mom make better parenting decisions? Perhaps it would have helped her understand that putting me up for adoption was a better option than a crack whore trying to raise 2 kids in a cheap motel?


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

willow_girl said:


> I think solutions have to grow out of the troubled community. Anything imposed upon it from the outside, however well-meaning, is likely to be a misguided effort and probably a waste of resources.
> 
> A society will function best when it requires all able-bodied people to work to get what they need to provide for themselves and their children. Any time it creates alternate routes to survival, it weakens the fabric of the society, as people will be less productive than they would be otherwise. Meanwhile, others will have to work even harder to take care of them.
> 
> As a side benefit, people who work all day have less energy left with which to get into mischief. And I've noticed that people tend to take better care of things they buy with money they've earned than things that are merely given to them.


As the old folks in the past century would say "idle hands are the devils workshop


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

willow_girl said:


> I think solutions have to grow out of the troubled community. Anything imposed upon it from the outside, however well-meaning, is likely to be a misguided effort and probably a waste of resources.
> 
> A society will function best when it requires all able-bodied people to work to get what they need to provide for themselves and their children. Any time it creates alternate routes to survival, it weakens the fabric of the society, as people will be less productive than they would be otherwise. Meanwhile, others will have to work even harder to take care of them.
> 
> As a side benefit, people who work all day have less energy left with which to get into mischief. And I've noticed that people tend to take better care of things they buy with money they've earned than things that are merely given to them.


 ................There is Tremendous Disfunctional Energy , Stored in those Hi Rise , Government built Housing projects !!!!! The Drug dealers and gang bangers have a captive audience they can sell drugs too , and Rob . Lots of residents don't want or NEED Jobs cause everything is already paid , FOR.....so they just sit there and vegetate and collect all their bene's that they never earned in the first place . 
................IF , the government had any sense or backbone , IT would Implode those Hi Rise housing units , and disperse the residents , out to single family rentals throughout the community ! Once this is accomplished , the family members are once again subject to the Rules of Good Behavior , that forces them to act in a completely , Different way . 
Anyone in the neighborhood who continues acting like they did in the HiRise will have a police officer at their door to put them in jail . Then they loose their benefits and the freebies are no more . , fordy


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

fordy said:


> ................There is Tremendous Disfunctional Energy , Stored in those Hi Rise , Government built Housing projects !!!!! The Drug dealers and gang bangers have a captive audience they can sell drugs too , and Rob . Lots of residents don't want or NEED Jobs cause everything is already paid , FOR.....so they just sit there and vegetate and collect all their bene's that they never earned in the first place .
> ................IF , the government had any sense or backbone , IT would Implode those Hi Rise housing units , and disperse the residents , out to single family rentals throughout the community ! Once this is accomplished , the family members are once again subject to the Rules of Good Behavior , that forces them to act in a completely , Different way .
> Anyone in the neighborhood who continues acting like they did in the HiRise will have a police officer at their door to put them in jail . Then they loose their benefits and the freebies are no more . , fordy


In jail they are still living on my dime. Not to mention that would destroy property value... Also now that mom and dad are in jail who is raising the kids?


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

Shrek said:


> As the old folks in the past century would say "idle hands are the devils workshop


People aren't killing each other cause they're bored and have nothing better to do. Maybe there's a reason people 'used' to say that.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> It would've helped me. Maybe it could've helped my bio-mom make better parenting decisions? Perhaps it would have helped her understand that putting me up for adoption was a better option than a crack whore trying to raise 2 kids in a cheap motel?


In the absence of government assistance, I think many people who are not able to provide for a child would choose to put it up for adoption or perhaps not have one in the first place. No?

As things stand now, the government will give you all sorts of nice things if you have (and keep) a baby. There is no incentive to refrain from producing children, no matter how poorly-equipped the mother is to care for them. There is no incentive for putting a child up for adoption.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I am glad to see that this thread has evolved into a discussion of the social issues that are causing violence instead of the battle cry of blaming a manufactured tool. History has shown that people have a violent nature. Are the Romans sitting in the coliseum cheering as two men hack each other to death any different then the slice and dice movie viewers? If we ignore the violence in movies, video games, song lyrics or whatever material found on the internet as having an influence we are lying to ourselves. Garbage in, garbage out, applies to more then computers.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

JJ Grandits said:


> I am glad to see that this thread has evolved into a discussion of the social issues that are causing violence instead of the battle cry of blaming a manufactured tool. History has shown that people have a violent nature. Are the Romans sitting in the coliseum cheering as two men hack each other to death any different then the slice and dice movie viewers? If we ignore the violence in movies, video games, song lyrics or whatever material found on the internet as having an influence we are lying to ourselves. Garbage in, garbage out, applies to more then computers.


If that were true then America would be horror movie right now with blood running in the streets since a very large percentage of Americans play video games, watch violent movies, etc.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

willow_girl said:


> In the absence of government assistance, I think many people who are not able to provide for a child would choose to put it up for adoption or perhaps not have one in the first place. No?
> 
> As things stand now, the government will give you all sorts of nice things if you have (and keep) a baby. There is no incentive to refrain from producing children, no matter how poorly-equipped the mother is to care for them. There is no incentive for putting a child up for adoption.


I am sure abortion rates would increase. Not so sure adoption ones would though. Free contraception that is easily accessed would decrease it more than anything else.


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

willow_girl said:


> In the absence of government assistance, I think many people who are not able to provide for a child would choose to put it up for adoption or perhaps not have one in the first place. No?
> 
> As things stand now, the government will give you all sorts of nice things if you have (and keep) a baby. There is no incentive to refrain from producing children, no matter how poorly-equipped the mother is to care for them. There is no incentive for putting a child up for adoption.


Abortion is an issue that is a can of worms and while I think that's a valid concern it will take us off topic. In an attempt to stay on topic I will say this...
When a baby cries and no one ever answers that baby learns to rock itself. Toddlers that go un-fed will figure out what to eat the hard way, trial and error, and mimicking others. Add a little violence to the mix and you now have a child that trusts no one....
Moving forward , someone gives this kid a dollar or a hamburger or toys for Christmas. That child who trusts no one and is not only stuck in survival mode (much like a war vet, POW, or kidnap victim) but literally knows nothing else, nothing better; will see that person as a tool to be used to survive. 
Growing up that child learns that not only can people be used for food and free toys, but having a baby (using the baby and the system) is a great way to survive. When survival and using people (because you have no concept of relationships, love, or trust) is all you know it is how you live and how you teach your kids to live. And the cycle continues and grows...
We have to start at the begin inning to fix the problem. Abortion is not a beginning. The baby born into the situation/ cycle is where we must start to fix the problem.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Gweny, with all due respect, by the time many babies are born, they're already damaged by their mother's drug or alcohol use during pregnancy.


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

JJ Grandits said:


> I am glad to see that this thread has evolved into a discussion of the social issues that are causing violence instead of the battle cry of blaming a manufactured tool. History has shown that people have a violent nature. Are the Romans sitting in the coliseum cheering as two men hack each other to death any different then the slice and dice movie viewers? If we ignore the violence in movies, video games, song lyrics or whatever material found on the internet as having an influence we are lying to ourselves. Garbage in, garbage out, applies to more then computers.


I agree that viewing violence is not helping. Kids that are born into survival don't understand relationships or value life. Showing these kids violent images that laud violent people as heroes, respected, and successful survivors will turn them to violence but the problem did not start with that, and most of them are viewing plenty of violence at home. The problem is again a child that has an attachment issue. The problem is still the lack of or broken/ insecure bond with their first primary caretaker in the first 6 years of life.
Children with a secure bond see the violence for what it is, entertaining fiction. In the interest of our freedom I'm completely against all censorship, and while it may be a bit successful it does not solve or address the real issue. It doesn't help these kids create a bond or have a meaningful relationship.


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

willow_girl said:


> Gweny, with all due respect, by the time many babies are born, they're already damaged by their mother's drug or alcohol use during pregnancy.


That's true. I was born with a heart problem, my sister with turrets, another with cerebral palsy... All from drug use during pregnancy. I'm not aware of any statistics that show these medical defects are at all related to violent crime. So damaged, yes. Violent? No.
Fetal alcohol syndrome education in schools has done much to decrease drinking during pregnancy. It has become taboo in our society. Awareness has had a huge effect.
Medical professionals, social services, and educators look for it and so those kids are likely to get help. Teaching kids about attachment and attachment issues won't save everybody but it can have the same positive effect.
Children born with FAS are immediately reported to CPS.


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## summerdaze (Jun 11, 2009)

I see the root of this problem the way that I see many of society's problems. Not enough love in the home, in the community, in the world. Rather rich or poor, children who are well loved and cared for, regardless of income, and taught love and respect for others, I think would just have to fare better then the children who are cranked out, abused in some cases, unloved, and uncared for. The parents have so many issues themselves, many aren't thinking about what's best for their children. Just trying to survive another day in a sucky world. 
IMO, it's time for people of faith to step up, and churches to reach out in their communities. It's not about just throwing money at the problems, it's about throwing love, concern, and care at them. Teaching them about love, by example. You can solve someone's immediate needs with money, but it's a band aid. Sometimes it takes that, but it still is a temporary solution. It's going to take going in deeper then that. And a lot of faith in action.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Patchouli said:


> If that were true then America would be horror movie right now with blood running in the streets since a very large percentage of Americans play video games, watch violent movies, etc.


I'm not saying it is the sole cause, but it does desensitize people to the suffering and brutality about them. When the extremely violent attitude becomes ingrained in a culture and when such actions are admired as a form of self awareness and independance, life imitates art instead of the other way around. Think of the change in movies over the decades. The cowboy used violence to solve a social problem for the good of the community. The gang banger uses violence to meet his own needs and earn what he determines is a form of respect. Same methods, different motivations and outcomes. Even though the violent crime rate has been steadily falling the urban environment is still a hot spot. Does the lack of opportunity cause the mind set and attitude that leads to violence, or does the mind set and attitude that leads to violence cause the lack of opportunity? These are the real issues that should be discussed. When a politician screams about gun control he or she is grandstanding and doing a diservice to the people they represent.


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## gweny (Feb 10, 2014)

summerdaze said:


> I see the root of this problem the way that I see many of society's problems. Not enough love in the home, in the community, in the world. Rather rich or poor, children who are well loved and cared for, regardless of income, and taught love and respect for others, I think would just have to fare better then the children who are cranked out, abused in some cases, unloved, and uncared for. The parents have so many issues themselves, many aren't thinking about what's best for their children. Just trying to survive another day in a sucky world.
> IMO, it's time for people of faith to step up, and churches to reach out in their communities. It's not about just throwing money at the problems, it's about throwing love, concern, and care at them. Teaching them about love, by example. You can solve someone's immediate needs with money, but it's a band aid. Sometimes it takes that, but it still is a temporary solution. It's going to take going in deeper then that. And a lot of faith in action.


I agree that love is the answer, but what these kids need is unconditional love that comes with natural consequences. These kids don't understand help. They don't get why you are giving away free food, but free food will bring them to your door.
I believe that government needs to stay out of the business of saving people because without the message of love the problem is simply perpetuated.
The real saviors are the individuals on the ground helping one person at a time.... The big brothers & sisters, the soup kitchen workers, the church shelters, and the foster parents.
If anyone here wants to truly help decrease violent crime in our world then that is how. Show these kids love without judgment regardless of their choices until they get mad at you for letting them hurt you... Then you have done it. Then and only then have you taught them how to bond, what a relationship is.
In that way I agree with you. I'm not Christian but I do think that inner city churches are the most equipped to give what is needed.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

Not into the church thing myself, but I agree that few things are changed for the better in this world except through great love. 

"Compassion" literally means "to suffer with," or to suffer alongside someone.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Even with the higher violence rate among inner city people, the violent criminals are still a small minority within those communities. There are lots of good people just trying to survive. The immediate solution is for them to start killing the criminals. It won't fix the underlying problems, but it will help.

The police chief of Detroit wants more citizens to have guns and not be afraid to use them. This is no conservative guy, just someone who has already seen what doesn't work and has a little common sense to go with his experience.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

jtbrandt said:


> Even with the higher violence rate among inner city people, the violent criminals are still a small minority within those communities. There are lots of good people just trying to survive. The immediate solution is for them to start killing the criminals. It won't fix the underlying problems, but it will help.
> 
> The police chief of Detroit wants more citizens to have guns and not be afraid to use them. This is no conservative guy, just someone who has already seen what doesn't work and has a little common sense to go with his experience.


 The Detroit chief received his field exposure in the LAPD as I recall.

For a police officer from the west coast to take such a position says much about the social issues and misconceptions pushed as fact by some sectors of current society.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

notwyse said:


> Well. I am sure I am painting a target on my forehead....but it seems to me that it is more of a socioeconomic problem rather than race. I live surrounded by Navajo nation....and I can tell you it can be VERY violent. And for a rural area we sure have our share of cop killings.


I lived briefly in that area in the early 1990s. No way would I want to go there now, because gangs moved in and took over a few years later.  Very sad thing, because it's a beautiful area with mostly decent people.


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## thesedays (Feb 25, 2011)

defenestrate said:


> If you want these murders to go down, take 100% of the money budgeted to fight "The War on Drugs", and invest it in modern, quality educational and medical facilities in the poorest neighborhoods in America, along with a real public works program repairing and improving the infrastructure of the nation. Improvements should focus on putting broadband and some manner of computer or thin web client in every home that wants it. If the drugs regulated by the DEA ceased to be totally illegal, the profit motive would go way down. Our drug policies are used to oppress minorities as well as the mentally ill. If you want the gang killings to stop, stop funding agencies that ensure the livelihoods of gangs.


I've heard more than once that in many cities, if the rich white people would stop giving their kids so much money, the gang and drug problem would dry up overnight because they would lose most of their funding.

And I almost, but not quite, believe that known gang members should be sterilized. I've also heard the same thing from people who have worked at alternative high schools.


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## just_sawing (Jan 15, 2006)

The larger point is that when you have a welfare state the third generation of the system is now empowered with a I deserve syndrome. When you have that and moral compasses such as church and other institutions removed replaced by the media that tells them they can get what they want through Song and Visual you have a broken piece of society. 
The horrible thing is that this mass makes up a population that can be manipulated into violence easy. Notice that I have not use the race difference, there is not any. Green black Blue or purple polka-dotted would act the same in the same situation.
The black population can justify their actions with it happened before.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

JJ Grandits said:


> I'm not saying it is the sole cause, but it does desensitize people to the suffering and brutality about them. When the extremely violent attitude becomes ingrained in a culture and when such actions are admired as a form of self awareness and independance, life imitates art instead of the other way around. Think of the change in movies over the decades. The cowboy used violence to solve a social problem for the good of the community. The gang banger uses violence to meet his own needs and earn what he determines is a form of respect. Same methods, different motivations and outcomes. Even though the violent crime rate has been steadily falling the urban environment is still a hot spot. Does the lack of opportunity cause the mind set and attitude that leads to violence, or does the mind set and attitude that leads to violence cause the lack of opportunity? These are the real issues that should be discussed. When a politician screams about gun control he or she is grandstanding and doing a diservice to the people they represent.


Of course it has an impact on people and that is undeniable. For those who think it doesn't, why do advertisers spend billions of dollars a year on such things? It's because they know what people see and hear does indeed affect their actions.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

jtbrandt said:


> Even with the higher violence rate among inner city people, the violent criminals are still a small minority within those communities. There are lots of good people just trying to survive. The immediate solution is for them to start killing the criminals. It won't fix the underlying problems, but it will help.
> 
> The police chief of Detroit wants more citizens to have guns and not be afraid to use them. This is no conservative guy, just someone who has already seen what doesn't work and has a little common sense to go with his experience.


They are indeed a minority but I wouldn't call it small. As a group, they keep our prisons full at great expense to us.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

poppy said:


> They are indeed a minority but I wouldn't call it small. As a group, they keep our prisons full at great expense to us.


You are mistaken. Remember I'm talking about violent criminals. Here's some figuring off the top of my head without bothering to look up sources for precise numbers:

There are roughly 2 million people in prison at any given time in the U.S. Roughly half are from the inner city. Of that half, roughly half are in for non-violent offenses. So, we have somewhere around a half million violent offenders "keeping our prisons full at great expense to us" out of many millions of people who live in the inner cities. A half million out of many millions is a small minority.

Truth is, it's the non-violent offenders keeping our prisons full for no good reason.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

jtbrandt said:


> You are mistaken. Remember I'm talking about violent criminals. Here's some figuring off the top of my head without bothering to look up sources for precise numbers:
> 
> There are roughly 2 million people in prison at any given time in the U.S. Roughly half are from the inner city. Of that half, roughly half are in for non-violent offenses. So, we have somewhere around a half million violent offenders "keeping our prisons full at great expense to us" out of many millions of people who live in the inner cities. A half million out of many millions is a small minority.
> 
> Truth is, it's the non-violent offenders keeping our prisons full for no good reason.


 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/4th..........IF 1/2 million are Violent(1/4 of 2 million) , then the other 1.5 million(3/4) must NON violent offenders ! So , it's the Non violent offenders who keep the prisions full . , fordy


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

fordy said:


> 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/4th..........IF 1/2 million are Violent(1/4 of 2 million) , then the other 1.5 million(3/4) must NON violent offenders ! So , it's the Non violent offenders who keep the prisions full . , fordy


The math doesn't quite go that far. It's about 1/4 of the prison inmates who are violent and from the inner city...there's another 1/4 who are violent and not from the inner city. But your point is correct...it's the non-violent ones filling up our prisons, along with the violent ones of course, but most of us can agree the violent ones shouldn't be out and about.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

In Michigan, with all the alternatives to prision, most actual prisoners are there for violent crimes.
75% are Black.
Recently, in Detroit, a white guy clipped a tenager that stepped out into the road. He backed up and got out to check on the kid. He was beaten and robbed by up to 20 guys, while 80 others watched. Took a week to figure out who was involved. Only came up with three or four people.
The Chief of Police stated, on the radio interview, that it might have been better if the guy would have been carrying a gun. That is the message. Police can't get there, so it is up to the residents to tale it into their own hands.

Couple weeks ago, burglers were confronted by armed homeowner, shot and managed to die in the driveway. 

Residents of Detroit are taking back what is left of their community.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Prisons are an industry. It used to be that you were jailed in a city, county, state or federal facility. The guards were officers who worked for the municipality. Today, our prisons owned by municipalities, but are operated by corporations. This poses a particular issue because once you are in jail, the corrections officers are charged with keeping you incarcerated. Get jumped by another prisoner and they add more time to YOUR stay for bad behavior. (How is it your fault that someone beat you up?)In this way, you become a pawn of the system and there is no incentive for them to let you out. They are paid to "care" for prisoners and they make the most money when they operate at capacity. It's sort of like the song, Hotel California, by the Eagles:

'You can check out any time you'd like, but you can never leave.'


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I have to disagree with you on that one. In New York the prisons are run by the State and the employees are State employees. I have friends on both sides of the bars.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

TheMartianChick said:


> Prisons are an industry. It used to be that you were jailed in a city, county, state or federal facility. The guards were officers who worked for the municipality. Today, our prisons owned by municipalities, but are operated by corporations. This poses a particular issue because once you are in jail, the corrections officers are charged with keeping you incarcerated. Get jumped by another prisoner and they add more time to YOUR stay for bad behavior. (How is it your fault that someone beat you up?)In this way, you become a pawn of the system and there is no incentive for them to let you out. They are paid to "care" for prisoners and they make the most money when they operate at capacity. It's sort of like the song, Hotel California, by the Eagles:
> 
> 'You can check out any time you'd like, but you can never leave.'


Nonviolent offenders are a problem. For one thing, they don't stay nonviolent. Sooner or later the purse snatcher, burglar hurts someone, the drunk driver kills someone, even the fraud might end up committing murder to cover up. And the person who sells drugs? How many people have died as a result of their "nonviolent" business?

If you live in a world where too many people are breaking into homes, stealing cars, selling and using drugs, you have such a restricted life where you constantly have to make stress ridden choices about daily life where a mistake gets you killed. The more ugly people let out of jail, the more everyone else is put into a prison of fear where even tty heir home is not to be assumed safe.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

JJ Grandits said:


> I have to disagree with you on that one. In New York the prisons are run by the State and the employees are State employees. I have friends on both sides of the bars.


I wasn't referring specifically to NY. There are companies like Corrections Corp. that do this professionally. It isn't in their best interests to rehabilitate anyone.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Rehabilitate? Really? 
Wackinhut and Corrections Corp generally have waiting lists. Then the State run Parole Board releases one, another is sent to replace him.
Prisons are a drain on the taxpayers, but imprisoned felons cost less locked up than what they drain from communities through steams of crimes, Court costs and added security costs. 
Shot on sight is far less costly.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Detroit-Michigan.html

Detroit has lost 500,000 citizens in the last 20 years, as a result of the closure of many auto related jobs. 
Also, Detroit is mostly Blacks. Detroit is mostly in poverty.
http://www.crimemapping.com/map.aspx?aid=0c6c72dd-7122-4509-b897-17f60e517d9d


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## Junkman (Dec 17, 2005)

Relative killed by Aunt over a stupid argument. She was 21 and had a Son.
Aunt in jail and has children. It wasn't the gun, it was the drinking that
killed the young girl, it was the partying that preceded the argument.
No one will ever know the whole story. Fine people. By the way no one
was of color. Two families destroyed.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Drunk woman, 24 years old, smashed her car at 3 am. Walked several blocks and walked up to a porch and began pounding to get help.
The homeowner, adapting to the high crime area, kept a loaded shotgun handy.
Fearing that the intruder was going to break down the door, he prepared to shoot. But when he saw it was a woman, opened the door, but kept the shotgun pointed at her. She rushed towards him and the gun fired, blowing her head off.
Black woman murdered by racist white homeowner or woman killed due to heightened fear of robbery, caused by mostly young black robbers?


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

haypoint said:


> Drunk woman, 24 years old, smashed her car at 3 am. Walked several blocks and walked up to a porch and began pounding to get help.
> The homeowner, adapting to the high crime area, kept a loaded shotgun handy.
> Fearing that the intruder was going to break down the door, he prepared to shoot. But when he saw it was a woman, opened the door, but kept the shotgun pointed at her. She rushed towards him and the gun fired, blowing her head off.
> Black woman murdered by racist white homeowner or woman killed due to heightened fear of robbery, caused by mostly young black robbers?


Are you referring to the Renisha McBride case? She was shot in the back of the head through a closed, locked screen door according to all of the reports that I've read.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

TheMartianChick said:


> Are you referring to the Renisha McBride case? She was shot in the back of the head through a closed, locked screen door according to all of the reports that I've read.


Maybe you should read more of the reports. Huff po has some that say she was shot in the face and not through a door.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Sadly there are many conflicting media depictions of the Dearborn Heights Michigan shooting . All that can be hoped for is that when the homeowner is tried for the second degree murder and other charges filed by the county D.A. next month , they have 12 willing to weigh the forensic and autopsy evidence and not anything they saw on mainstream media in the last 7 months.

I know a guy here who was born in Dearborn Heights and when the military offered him his retire out duty assignment he chose this state although his mother chose to continue to live in the house he grew up in.

After his retirement when she wanted to visit with his family he would have her fly here being escorted from her home to the airport and back on her return by a relative there who was a LEO. When she passed away he had the same relative covering his back as he settled her affairs and interred her remains.

He told us that since his relative in law enforcement had provided for her safety and well being for so many years he offered him her house and furnishings as a token of appreciation and his cousin told him to not worry because the house and property wasn't even worth as much as a decent new car and best as I understand they cleaned it out and legally surrendered the house and land.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Fortunately all these problem will be solved by passing more gun control laws. Hillary said so.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I sometimes hear the assertion, mostly from liberals, that America imprisons too many people. Usually there is a (negative) comparison to the percentage imprisoned by some repressive regime like Iran or China. OMG, we're worse than the Muslims or Communists! 

The funny thing is, this contention never seems to be accompanied by documentation alleging that we have a high _false_ conviction rate. The liberals don't seem to be claiming that too many _innocent_ people are _wrongly_ imprisoned! Which leads me to wonder, is it really a bad thing to put_ guilty _people in jail? Isn't a high incarceration rate a sign that our system is _working_ -- that criminals are being apprehended, tried, convicted and punished? And isn't that a _good _thing? 

I suppose a fair argument could be made that laws are too harsh -- for instance, criminalizing relatively harmless things like the possession of small amounts of MJ. If that's how you feel, fine -- work to get the laws changed. _But don't complain because the police and courts are being too effective in enforcing the laws that are on the books!

_Just my 2 cents.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

JJ Grandits said:


> I think that the purpose of the article is that the so called gun violence is not caused by the gun but by underlying social problems. If we focus on the gun we are ignoring the social problem which will then escalate. Four of the Black men I work with have been shot. There has to be a reason for this and it is not the availability of guns. I can not think of anyone in the town I live in who does not own a firearm nor can I remember anyone who has been shot unless they were in the service. Obviously it is not the firearm causing the violence. If we deny that there is a problem in the black community for fear of being judged racist we are burying our heads in the sand. If not the gun the next cause is poverty, but even that is a lame excuse. My parents generation went through the depression. Povery was extreme. There is a picture of my mother and my aunt Sally wearing flower sacks as dresses. Her father died when she was ten and there were six kids in the family. They knew poverty. But they didn't kill anyone. I have my own theories, but I'd like to hear someone elses.












Honestly, I do believe that the "D" party-now b/4 everyone rants, I'm not talking about the average "D" person, just the PTB-only see people of color as voters to help them be in power forever. They DO NOT want to better people as a whole...then they would be educated, able, & self-sufficient. The ol' "...give a man a fish..."


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

fordy said:


> ................When I did a google on same races killing each other I came up with only (2) specifics , (1)black on black violence in several large government multi story housing projects in several different cities , and , (2)the latino situation mainly in LA where different gangs execute hits on each other's members ! Then , there is a third example where mainly white on white killings occur between motorcyle gangs but the number of deaths is statistically not important when compared to the other two situations .
> .................So , the two largest minorities are basically , the only examples of where two members of the same race kill each other for no reason except drugs , money and gang affiliation . And , given that the illegtimate birth rate among black females is 70% , it would seem to indicate that the lack of a father figure in the home is a Major contributing factor to this ongoing problem in the affected communities . , fordy


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

willow_girl said:


> Maybe we can start by electing people who will dismantle the welfare state that has gone a long way to destroy the black family and is starting to make inroads on white and Latino ones. The out-of-wedlock birthrate in the white community today is probably what it was 20 years ago in the black community ... this isn't going to remain a "problem that is only suffered by the black community" for long.
> 
> We need fathers (both black and white) to marry the mothers of their children and stick around to raise their kids. You know -- the way it used to be.
> 
> I can't blame an impoverished pregnant teenager for deciding that Uncle Sam would make a better partner than an 18-year-old kid in saggy pants ... but shame on us for giving her that option. :nono:












I'm w/you. The 70% out of wedlock birth rate among black people stands out as the biggest cause...
I've been poor. I've known folks poorer than me. We all owned guns. No one shot anyone.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

gweny said:


> As a former orphan/ foster kid that actually lived in one of those orphanages after witnessing my mothers murder I know what it is to have the deck stacked against you. If you check the statistics it's a miracle I haven't killed anybody. It truly is a miracle that I survived at all in all honesty. I've looked up a few kids I remembered from the orphanage (in inner city Chicago) as an adult only to learn just how lucky I am. See, when you've lived it you know you've got 2 paths to choose from and the way out is very, very difficult. But since I could see that the other route led to jails, institutions, and death (most can't see that or don't have a reason to care); I choose to bust my ----- to get to a better life. Choosing that path without guidance or representation is rare. Choosing that path with little to no concern for life is impossible.
> The key is the concern for life/others/ a conscience. It doesn't matter who the bond is with; Be it mom, dad, grandma, or even a foster parent. Please google Reactive Attachment Disorder. This is how violent murderers without a conscience are created. That bond is the first and most important lesson we will ever learn. I know because I have lived it. I have spent my life studying and learning about it so I could save myself.
> I'm not trying to fix society. Adding early child psych development curriculum to schools certainly wouldn't fix all of society! Perhaps though.... Perhaps it could help?
> It would've helped me. Maybe it could've helped my bio-mom make better parenting decisions? Perhaps it would have helped her understand that putting me up for adoption was a better option than a crack whore trying to raise 2 kids in a cheap motel?


Congrats & blessings to you, hoping for the best for you.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

willow_girl said:


> I sometimes hear the assertion, mostly from liberals, that America imprisons too many people. Usually there is a (negative) comparison to the percentage imprisoned by some repressive regime like Iran or China. OMG, we're worse than the Muslims or Communists!
> 
> The funny thing is, this contention never seems to be accompanied by documentation alleging that we have a high _false_ conviction rate. The liberals don't seem to be claiming that too many _innocent_ people are _wrongly_ imprisoned! Which leads me to wonder, is it really a bad thing to put_ guilty _people in jail? Isn't a high incarceration rate a sign that our system is _working_ -- that criminals are being apprehended, tried, convicted and punished? And isn't that a _good _thing?
> 
> ...


There are a whole pile of problems involved here. First yes there are plenty of innocent people convicted of crimes every day in America. Maybe you have heard of the Innocence Project? They work to exonerate those falsely convicted using DNA evidence.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/DNA_Exonerations_Nationwide.php

Second we have a lack of good legal representation for those who are poor or minorities which leads to plea deals that should never be taken, cases lost that should have been won and longer sentences.

Third we have mandatory sentencing that gives a person who sold drugs at one Grateful Dead concert a lifetime prison sentence. There are cases in the news daily of people convicted of very minor crimes sentenced to absurd amounts of jail time. That is a serious waste of tax payer money.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

A whole lot of problems here too. First a person has to have two prior convictions to get a third under three strikes standards, so your example is a person who didn't get a life term for one sale at one concert. He got a life sentence at his third conviction of a felony.
The Innocence Project works to free people not neccessarily proving they are innocent but that their convictions were from trials with technical defects. They try to prove defect in conviction, rarely innocence at all.
And this, even if actually innocent, is a miniscule proportion of convictions.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

What a person goes to prison for is almost never what their crime was. Plea Bargaining.

Let's say I run a Drug House and after hundreds of transactions, possession of illegal and stolen firearms, I get arrested. The Police's informant changes his mind, after threats by me, and refuses to testify. This happens a few times. Finally, they get the evidence they need. My lawyer agrees to a deal. I go to prison for under 3 years, if I plead guilty to possession of under 500 grams of MJ.
My non-violent business could be directly tied to dozens of armed robberies, hundreds of home invasions and a few drive-by shootings. That is normal activity for those needing an income stream to support their habits.
But, I'm convicted of a non-violent crime. I pass the business on to my cousin before I go to prison. 
I did meet a guy that was in prison for drunk driving. In Michigan drunk driving is a felony. This guy had been arrested 12 times for drunk driving over 6 years. The 13th time, he lost control of his truck and his passenger was killed. So, he copped a plea to Drunk Driving, a non-violent offence.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

where I want to said:


> A whole lot of problems here too. First a person has to have two prior convictions to get a third under three strikes standards, so your example is a person who didn't get a life term for one sale at one concert. He got a life sentence at his third conviction of a felony.
> The Innocence Project works to free people not neccessarily proving they are innocent but that their convictions were from trials with technical defects. They try to prove defect in conviction, rarely innocence at all.
> And this, even if actually innocent, is a miniscule proportion of convictions.


There are actually other types of minimum sentencing besides the three strikes laws. 
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ng-drug-sentence-of-staggering-idiocy/274607/



> A first-time narcotics offender, father to three, sold pain pills to a friend. His punishment: 25 years in prison. It's just the latest evidence that U.S. drug policy is madness.


You might want to read that link on the Innocence Project. They use DNA from older cases to prove whether or not it was actually the person who was convicted who committed the crime. They have actually not only freed a lot of innocent prisoners but also found the person who did commit the crime in more than half of their cases. The number is only miniscule because they are just getting started and it takes time and money to get the DNA processed. Not to mention if you were one of those hundreds of falsely convicted prisoners including 18 on death row I don't think miniscule is even a word you would use.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> I don't think there is any interest whatsoever in solving the problem. I think this is all about pointing the finger at another race to make some people feel better about their own.
> 
> Our current justice system is a joke and the costs of our insane incarceration system don't have anything at all to do with our true crime rates. They have everything to do with making a whole lot of money off of jailing a large chunk of our population and the poor and minorities are bearing the brunt of that in large part because of entitled and ignorant white people who believe all this bunkum about evil and scary black and brown people.
> 
> You really want to fix the system and save some money? First do some homework into the reality behind our prison system. Second stop passing on the myths.


So it IS the white man's fault?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

gweny said:


> I agree that love is the answer, but what these kids need is unconditional love that comes with natural consequences. These kids don't understand help. They don't get why you are giving away free food, but free food will bring them to your door.
> I believe that government needs to stay out of the business of saving people because without the message of love the problem is simply perpetuated.
> The real saviors are the individuals on the ground helping one person at a time.... The big brothers & sisters, the soup kitchen workers, the church shelters, and the foster parents.
> If anyone here wants to truly help decrease violent crime in our world then that is how. Show these kids love without judgment regardless of their choices until they get mad at you for letting them hurt you... Then you have done it. Then and only then have you taught them how to bond, what a relationship is.
> In that way I agree with you. I'm not Christian but I do think that inner city churches are the most equipped to give what is needed.


Gweny,
I admire you greatly. You are an inspiration to me and I welcome you to HT. I wish I knew how to empower you to deliver your message many times over what you are doing here.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Yesterday a 16 year old black boy shot and killed a cab driver because he thought he was taking the long way to his destination. He did not kill the driver simple because he had a gun. And he didn't kill the driver because he was Black. The driver died because a young man had no respect for the life of another. He came from a sub-culture where life has no value. This is not a gun thing and this is not a race thing and this is not a political thing and I wish I had the answers. What makes a young boy act this way? Who and what influenced him? Or better yet, who or what didn't?


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

JJ Grandits said:


> Yesterday a 16 year old black boy shot and killed a cab driver because he thought he was taking the long way to his destination. He did not kill the driver simple because he had a gun. And he didn't kill the driver because he was Black. The driver died because a young man had no respect for the life of another. He came from a sub-culture where life has no value. This is not a gun thing and this is not a race thing and this is not a political thing and I wish I had the answers. What makes a young boy act this way? Who and what influenced him? Or better yet, who or what didn't?


Yesterday a white boy took 3 guns and killed 7 people and wounded 13 more because he had mental issues. Still waiting for the thread about white people killing people with guns since mass murderers are pretty much always white males.


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## Deeplines (Dec 7, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> Well I don't know but around here every person that has shot another person in the last 20 years that I know of was white and a Baptist.


I'm still waiting on where HERE is? Not some broad remark like Rural America. You tell us the county and state we will be able to see the FACTS.


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## po boy (Jul 12, 2010)

Patchouli said:


> Well I don't know but around here every person that has shot another person in the last 20 years that I know of was white and a Baptist.


 I have never seen an article that identified a killer as being Baptist.
And:
*Myth: Serial killers are all white males.*

Contrary to popular belief, serial killers span all racial groups. There are white, African-American, Hispanic, and Asian serial killers. The racial diversification of serial killers generally mirrors that of the overall U.S. population.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> Yesterday a white boy took 3 guns and killed 7 people and wounded 13 more because he had mental issues. Still waiting for the thread about white people killing people with guns since mass murderers are pretty much always white males.


Thing of it is, even tho the insane person killed several, it DOES NOT come close to black on black killings or even black on white killings.
You are dancing all around this, being PC or kind or not offensive. But there is a huge problem w/what I mentioned as well as the OP. 
Family breakdown, no values, no father in the picture are the common denominators.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> Yesterday a white boy took 3 guns and killed 7 people and wounded 13 more because he had mental issues. Still waiting for the thread about white people killing people with guns since mass murderers are pretty much always white males.


No one is arguing that mental illness causes many such tragedies, no one...

While you spout nonsense denying a culture of false idols and inherent violence.

Carry on..


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Instead of addressing the problem some people want to turn it into a political, racist debate. That's pretty interesting since fostering that debate has caused the problem to escalate through their ignorance. They are closet racists.


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## tarbe (Apr 7, 2007)

Patchouli said:


> Yesterday a white boy took 3 guns and killed 7 people and wounded 13 more because he had mental issues. Still waiting for the thread about white people killing people with guns since mass murderers are pretty much always white males.


All you see is color/race?


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Deeplines said:


> I'm still waiting on where HERE is? Not some broad remark like Rural America. You tell us the county and state we will be able to see the FACTS.


I don't believe in putting out too much information about myself on the internet. So I won't be sharing that. But I think if you look at any rural mainly white county in most of the center section of America you will find what I say to be true. 

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/19...-kentucky-kentucky-mountains-eastern-kentucky


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

po boy said:


> I have never seen an article that identified a killer as being Baptist.
> And:
> *Myth: Serial killers are all white males.*
> 
> Contrary to popular belief, serial killers span all racial groups. There are white, African-American, Hispanic, and Asian serial killers. The racial diversification of serial killers generally mirrors that of the overall U.S. population.


I never mentioned serial killers. I mentioned locals killing each other. If you know the local who killed someone you also generally know what church they went to also. Doesn't matter if they put it in the new article we all know who they are and most everything about them.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

JJ Grandits said:


> Instead of addressing the problem some people want to turn it into a political, racist debate. That's pretty interesting since fostering that debate has caused the problem to escalate through their ignorance. They are closet racists.


This thread was started as a political racist debate. I am just pointing out the absurdity of making it about race or politics. People kill people period and that is what we should be trying to fix not just sloughing it off on another race so we can feel all special about ourselves.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

thesedays said:


> And I almost, but not quite, believe that known gang members should be sterilized.


The better solution is to sterilize ALL of them at birth, not just gang members.... do that for about three generations.... problem solved.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> The better solution is to sterilize ALL of them at birth, not just gang members.... do that for about three generations.... problem solved.


I sincerely hope this was facetious. If not we are now wandering into eugenics.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Tricky Grama said:


> Honestly, I do believe that the "D" party-now b/4 everyone rants, I'm not talking about the average "D" person, just the PTB-only see people of color as voters to help them be in power forever. They DO NOT want to better people as a whole...then they would be educated, able, & self-sufficient. The ol' "...give a man a fish..."


I agree with you on this. The "D" platform is based on helping the poor and needy. In order to be elected and reelected they need poor and needy voters. Hence.... they do everything in their power to produce even more poor and needy people. Economic policies that would provide prosperity would be a death nell to the D party.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I agree with you on this. The "D" platform is based on helping the poor and needy. In order to be elected and reelected they need poor and needy voters. Hence.... they do everything in their power to produce even more poor and needy people. Economic policies that would provide prosperity would be a death nell to the D party.


Complete and total hogwash.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> Complete and total hogwash.


If you have evidence to the contrar... please bring it forward. Show me a "D" program designed with the purpose of providing a prosperous nation. So far all I have seen of their efforts provide ways to entrap the poor and keep them in poverty. Snap, welfare (or whatever name it goes by today), hud housing, wic, a vast array of disability programs..... all designed to purchase the poor fellers vote... with the rich mans tax money. Ever since FDR began his "feed the poor" social programs is been one failed program after another. We have far more folks living in "poverty" today than we did during the depression.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> If you have evidence to the contrar... please bring it forward. Show me a "D" program designed with the purpose of providing a prosperous nation. So far all I have seen of their efforts provide ways to entrap the poor and keep them in poverty. Snap, welfare (or whatever name it goes by today), hud housing, wic, a vast array of disability programs..... all designed to purchase the poor fellers vote... with the rich mans tax money. Ever since FDR began his "feed the poor" social programs is been one failed program after another. We have far more folks living in "poverty" today than we did during the depression.


If you see only what you want to see then all the reality in the world will not change your mind. Examples would be pointless since the programs you listed are not ways of keeping the poor in poverty they are ways of lending a hand to get them out of poverty. I am sure you could find plenty of people all over this forum who have been helped by those programs and are now on their feet doing well. Myself included.


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

Do you remember the census guy who was thought to be murdered but turned out to have committed suicide in Clay county Ky? I remember all the bad talking about rural Eastern Ky. Nobody cared that violent crime in Clay county was practically nonexistent. No murder in a couple decades. 
No, instead vitriol spewed at us hillbillies by the everloving kind liberals.
sample:
At the height of the national media glare, the _Manchester Enterprise_'s young editor received an e-mail from New York: "What are you people, backwoods ignorant freaks?" the e-mailer wrote. "This crime is a reflection of all the residents of Clay County.&#8230; You are all disgusting pigs, and if one could level a curse at a community, then I curse the whole lot of you." 

Crime statistics of Clay county, note especially murder per 100 000.
http://www.insideprison.com/city_cr...tyCaseR=CLAY&stateNorm=KY&zipC=40962&stateID=

those Baptists in action...


while I am at it, compare the crime statistics of Dayton Oh with Clay county Ky 
http://www.insideprison.com/city_cr...state=OHIO&stateNorm=OH&zipC=45402&stateID=36

And make sure you compare with the National average.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Watch any national news program the last 3 days? All about the nut in California who killed several people. It's all about a rich kid and his guns. Have you seen one national news stories telling you that 39 people have been shot in Chicago in the last 3 days? I haven't, but it happened. Every one of those 39 were someone's son, daughter, father, etc., but since they are black the country sort of expects it out of them and it doesn't even make the news.


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

of course not poppy, you are a racist when you notice it. Latch on like a tick when whites commit something and milk it endlessly for the last drop, 
while having totally ignored the Knoxville horror. 
To the decent blacks on here, this is not about blacks but about the liberal media.


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## Tex- (May 18, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> If you have evidence to the contrar... please bring it forward. Show me a "D" program designed with the purpose of providing a prosperous nation. So far all I have seen of their efforts provide ways to entrap the poor and keep them in poverty. Snap, welfare (or whatever name it goes by today), hud housing, wic, a vast array of disability programs..... all designed to purchase the poor fellers vote... with the rich mans tax money. Ever since FDR began his "feed the poor" social programs is been one failed program after another. We have far more folks living in "poverty" today than we did during the depression.


A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.- mis-attributed to several, so I will call it, author unknown.

I'm not sure who said this, but it sure seems to be playing out as predicted. How long before we get to the dictatorship stage?

Tex


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Patchouli said:


> Complete and total hogwash.


And don't forget the hogwashers. If you try to pull their heads out of the sand they will freak out and wash your hog.......completely!


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> If you have evidence to the contrar... please bring it forward. Show me a "D" program designed with the purpose of providing a prosperous nation. So far all I have seen of their efforts provide ways to entrap the poor and keep them in poverty. Snap, welfare (or whatever name it goes by today), hud housing, wic, a vast array of disability programs..... all designed to purchase the poor fellers vote... with the rich mans tax money. Ever since FDR began his "feed the poor" social programs is been one failed program after another. We have far more folks living in "poverty" today than we did during the depression.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> If you see only what you want to see then all the reality in the world will not change your mind. Examples would be pointless since the programs you listed are not ways of keeping the poor in poverty they are ways of lending a hand to get them out of poverty. I am sure you could find plenty of people all over this forum who have been helped by those programs and are now on their feet doing well. Myself included.


Ah, but those are few & far b/w, b/c NOW there's literally 1/2 the country on some sort of gov't ass't. Going back decades, there's GENERATIONS of folks who live only on welfare.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Tabitha said:


> Do you remember the census guy who was thought to be murdered but turned out to have committed suicide in Clay county Ky? I remember all the bad talking about rural Eastern Ky. Nobody cared that violent crime in Clay county was practically nonexistent. No murder in a couple decades.
> No, instead vitriol spewed at us hillbillies by the everloving kind liberals.
> sample:
> At the height of the national media glare, the _Manchester Enterprise_'s young editor received an e-mail from New York: "What are you people, backwoods ignorant freaks?" the e-mailer wrote. "This crime is a reflection of all the residents of Clay County.â¦ You are all disgusting pigs, and if one could level a curse at a community, then I curse the whole lot of you."
> ...


Neither of your links work for me. I get a page of gibberish. Interestingly enough I just read about the Census guy yesterday looking up stats on your state. Very sad case. I do find it telling that he thought his ploy would work there.....

Unless you can disprove the statistics in this article with a link that works I think the facts on rural white counties speak for themselves. 

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/19...-kentucky-kentucky-mountains-eastern-kentucky



> A review by the Lexington Herald-Leader found that Leslie and nine neighboring Appalachian counties in southeastern Kentucky had higher homicide rates than many major U.S. cities.
> 
> 
> * Wolfe and Perry had homicide rates of 24.2 and 21.6 for every 100,000 people, higher than Philadelphia, Boston or San Francisco.
> ...


Your Clay county is listed there by the way. 

A few more fun facts for Kentucky. When it comes to murder 55% of the people committing it are white compared to 24% that are black. The victims of murder are 69% white vs. 31% black. So it would appear at least in Kentucky it is mostly white people killing white people and maybe a few black people too. 

I would say that makes a wreck out of all of the theories in this thread that it is all black people. But since that does not fit the prevailing paradigm I am sure it will be railed against. 

Murder stats are on page 17:
http://www.kentuckystatepolice.org/pdf/cik_2009.pdf

On the upside it looks like your Clay county did not have any murders in 2009. All those other white rural counties listed in the article link above still ranked highest in the state on a per capita basis.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> A few more fun facts for Kentucky. When it comes to murder 55% of the people committing it are white compared to 24% that are black. The victims of murder are 69% white vs. 31% black. So it would appear at least in Kentucky it is mostly white people killing white people and maybe a few black people too.
> 
> I would say that makes a wreck out of all of the theories in this thread that it is all black people. But since that does not fit the prevailing paradigm I am sure it will be railed s.


You need to cite population proportions to make any relevant conclusion. it is the volume inside a partcular demographic that is at issue.
If 50% of murders are committed by a population that represents 70% by numbers, than the murder rate must be lower than another group.
I have no idea if your conclusions are right or wrong as your data is not useful.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> Neither of your links work for me. I get a page of gibberish. Interestingly enough I just read about the Census guy yesterday looking up stats on your state. Very sad case. I do find it telling that he thought his ploy would work there.....
> 
> Unless you can disprove the statistics in this article with a link that works I think the facts on rural white counties speak for themselves.
> 
> ...


I finally figured out what state YOU live in. Denial.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> Neither of your links work for me. I get a page of gibberish. Interestingly enough I just read about the Census guy yesterday looking up stats on your state. Very sad case. I do find it telling that he thought his ploy would work there.....
> 
> Unless you can disprove the statistics in this article with a link that works I think the facts on rural white counties speak for themselves.
> 
> ...


Reality check. Blacks make up 7.8% of Kentucky's population but they commit 24% of murders.

The five largest ancestries in the commonwealth are: American (20.9%), German (12.7%), Irish (10.5%), English (9.7%), African American (7.8%).[6] Only eight Kentucky counties list an ancestry other than American as the county's largest, those being Christian and Fulton, where African American is the largest reported ancestry, and the state's most urban counties of Jefferson, Oldham, Fayette, Boone, Kenton, and Campbell, where German is the largest reported ancestry.[6] Southeastern Kentucky was populated by a large group of Native Americans of mixed heritage, also known as Melungeons, in the early 19th century.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Patchouli said:


> If you see only what you want to see then all the reality in the world will not change your mind. Examples would be pointless since the programs you listed are not ways of keeping the poor in poverty they are ways of lending a hand to get them out of poverty. I am sure you could find plenty of people all over this forum who have been helped by those programs and are now on their feet doing well. Myself included.


I disagree. A lot of programs seem to trap people, even if that is not the original intention. When a person gets to the point where they earn enough money to leave the program, it is usually still not enough to make up for what they are loosing in benefits, so they often reduce their earnings and stay on the benefits. The programs don't do a good enough job of helping people transition to self sufficiency. 

I have a friend who ended up in section 8 housing after a bad divorce. She worked her butt off and earned incentive pay on her job to make extra money and be able to get out on her own. But they raised her rent so much due to the extra income, she was actually losing money out of her pocket each month and had a really tough time "breaking free". Anyone less stubborn/determined than her, would still be there.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> If you see only what you want to see then all the reality in the world will not change your mind. Examples would be pointless since the programs you listed are not ways of keeping the poor in poverty they are ways of lending a hand to get them out of poverty. I am sure you could find plenty of people all over this forum who have been helped by those programs and are now on their feet doing well. Myself included.


I have a feeling examples are pointless more because they dont exist than those I gave are directly responsible for keeping millions of our good citizens in the throws of poverty. Yes... there are those who do escape the cycle.... but they are the exception rather than the rule. I personally know a great many right here in my own county who were raised "on the system", and are now raising their own the same way. It continues for generations.... Show me the stats where ANY social program in this country has accomplished its stated goals of eliminating poverty.... we have a higher percentage of the population on government support today than ever before in the nations history. Something like 47 percent as I recall.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

MO_cows said:


> I disagree. A lot of programs seem to trap people, even if that is not the original intention. When a person gets to the point where they earn enough money to leave the program, it is usually still not enough to make up for what they are loosing in benefits, so they often reduce their earnings and stay on the benefits. The programs don't do a good enough job of helping people transition to self sufficiency.
> 
> I have a friend who ended up in section 8 housing after a bad divorce. She worked her butt off and earned incentive pay on her job to make extra money and be able to get out on her own. But they raised her rent so much due to the extra income, she was actually losing money out of her pocket each month and had a really tough time "breaking free". Anyone less stubborn/determined than her, would still be there.


Yeppers.... there is no "incentive" built into the programs to encourage anyone to get off once they get on. Quite the opposite... the built in incentives encourage one to remain in the system.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

where I want to said:


> You need to cite population proportions to make any relevant conclusion. it is the volume inside a partcular demographic that is at issue.
> If 50% of murders are committed by a population that represents 70% by numbers, than the murder rate must be lower than another group.
> I have no idea if your conclusions are right or wrong as your data is not useful.


The data is in the links.....


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

HDRider said:


> I finally figured out what state YOU live in. Denial.


Can't argue with my facts or statistics so you resort to insults.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

poppy said:


> Reality check. Blacks make up 7.8% of Kentucky's population but they commit 24% of murders.
> 
> The five largest ancestries in the commonwealth are: American (20.9%), German (12.7%), Irish (10.5%), English (9.7%), African American (7.8%).[6] Only eight Kentucky counties list an ancestry other than American as the county's largest, those being Christian and Fulton, where African American is the largest reported ancestry, and the state's most urban counties of Jefferson, Oldham, Fayette, Boone, Kenton, and Campbell, where German is the largest reported ancestry.[6] Southeastern Kentucky was populated by a large group of Native Americans of mixed heritage, also known as Melungeons, in the early 19th century.


First as I have mentioned before if you copy things off the internet you are required to provide a link according to forum rules. It's not that hard, copy and paste your info and then copy and paste the link: 

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sp...202-cutting-pasting-articles-please-read.html

Second your info is just made up numbers so far as I am concerned until you provide a link.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

obviously the statistics quoted are racially biased to enforce the posters prejudice against white people, and probably Baptists in particular. The poster should stop being a hater. People who hate only make things worse.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

JJ Grandits said:


> obviously the statistics quoted are racially biased to enforce the posters prejudice against white people, and probably Baptists in particular. The poster should stop being a hater. People who hate only make things worse.


I don't hate my own race and yes I am white. I don't really care one way or the other about Baptists. I don't hate much of anything really besides lies and ignorance. But I fight both of those wherever I can.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> First as I have mentioned before if you copy things off the internet you are required to provide a link according to forum rules. It's not that hard, copy and paste your info and then copy and paste the link:
> 
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sp...202-cutting-pasting-articles-please-read.html
> 
> Second your info is just made up numbers so far as I am concerned until you provide a link.


Here ya go. It was hard to find. Only about 16,000,000 hits. When you get done with those, PM me and I'll find you more. 
just something to consider. Whites make up almost 88% of the population of Kentucky but they only commit 55% of murders. Blacks make up 7.8% of Kentucky's population but commit 24% of murders. To be equally responsible for murder, Blacks should only be committing about 5% of murders instead of 24% or ,reversed, whites would have to commit 165% of murders.

http://censusviewer.com/state/KY


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

MO_cows said:


> I disagree. A lot of programs seem to trap people, even if that is not the original intention. When a person gets to the point where they earn enough money to leave the program, it is usually still not enough to make up for what they are loosing in benefits, so they often reduce their earnings and stay on the benefits. The programs don't do a good enough job of helping people transition to self sufficiency.
> 
> I have a friend who ended up in section 8 housing after a bad divorce. She worked her butt off and earned incentive pay on her job to make extra money and be able to get out on her own. But they raised her rent so much due to the extra income, she was actually losing money out of her pocket each month and had a really tough time "breaking free". Anyone less stubborn/determined than her, would still be there.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> First as I have mentioned before if you copy things off the internet you are required to provide a link according to forum rules. It's not that hard, copy and paste your info and then copy and paste the link:
> 
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sp...202-cutting-pasting-articles-please-read.html
> 
> Second your info is just made up numbers so far as I am concerned until you provide a link.


Ok, I am not positive but fairly sure poppys info came right out of the link that YOU posted. I remember reading it at the time but really am not interested in going back and rereading everything in that link again.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> Can't argue with my facts or statistics so you resort to insults.


"Complete and total hogwash"..... ring any bells?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Some will claim that the high rate of arrests among Blacks is because Cops are focused on them. Some will claim that when Whites break a law, they get a pass, while Blacks always go to jail. Some will blame poverty. Some are still beating the "They were once Slaves" drum.

But facts don't support that. Cities with a Black Police Force arrest plenty of Blacks. Statistics show that in predominately White Communities, the chance that a White criminal will do jail time is higher than in Black communities, for the same crime. Reason is clear, when crime is rare, punishment is greater, when crime is common, punishment is less. It is wrong to attach an excuse for crime on poverty. Most people in poverty do not commit crimes.

I'm sure many would be offended if I were to saw "Violence is just in their nature." But look at the tribes of Africa. Look at the Sudan, Somalia, Nigeria and many more. Look at the Spokesperson for the kidnappers of those School girls in Nigeria. Sure, Whites have waged many wars, too. But I have trouble separating the centuries old tribal warfare and the intercity gang violence. 
An ancestor of mine, towards the end of the War between the States/Civil War/ War of Northern Aggression, felt that the Southerners would never accept Blacks. He believed that most Blacks had learned skills, while slaves, that would put them centuries ahead of Africans. He proposed, each year, transporting 20% back to Africa until they were gone. A return to their original homelands, with skills assuring prosperity, away from the hateful Whites. He had some beliefs about inter-racial mixing. Remember this was over 150 years ago. 
He believed White were good, Blacks were good, but crossbreeds were often prone to violence. His solution was never advanced and we continue the social experiment to this day.

Yes, welfare can turn a safety net into a hammock. I worked with a woman that went from very low income to earning over $40,000. For that first year, her house rent was $50. But when it was adjusted for income, she was fit to be tied. She didn't know how she could afford $600 a month rent. Welcome to the world of unsubsidized housing.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, I am not positive but fairly sure poppys info came right out of the link that YOU posted. I remember reading it at the time but really am not interested in going back and rereading everything in that link again.


Look up.... it was not from my links I would have recognized it and Poppy posted his link after I asked for it.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> "Complete and total hogwash"..... ring any bells?


There is a vast difference between facts and statistics which just are what they are and the internal motivations of people who create and vote for social welfare programs. We can sit down and look at the cold hard facts about who murders who and how. The numbers are right here in front of us. To accuse people of having evil motives is a far harder thing to quantify unless you are somehow Omniscient and able to read hearts and minds. 

I happen to believe a lot of those programs are good. I have voted for and know a lot of Democrats. I know why I and they believe those programs to be a good and useful thing. Not one single one them, myself included wants those programs to hold anyone down. We all sincerely want to see poverty ended in this country. We all want to see every child get a good education and good job and have a decent home and a secure place to raise their children. You are welcome to say you think our ideas do not work the way we want them to and explain why and we can discuss that but slurring us by accusing us of evil motives ends all conversation. 

Your accusations were wrong and extremely offensive and I labeled them exactly what they were: HOGWASH. Don't try to tell me what I think or why I do what I do. You are welcome to speak for yourself and I will be happy and interested to hear what you have to say but do not presume to think you know what I think or to speak for me.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> Look up.... it was not from my links I would have recognized it and Poppy posted his link after I asked for it.


I am pretty sure I read some of those stats here... "Murder stats are on page 17:
http://www.kentuckystatepolice.org/pdf/cik_2009.pdf" posted by yours truly in post 132. I am also pretty sure tabitha brought forward links from reputable sites that contradicts your other sites claims. Sorry if those links dont work on your comp... they work fine for me. If you would like me to I will be happy to go back and look those stats up and copy and paste them for you.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> The data is in the links.....


Then you are saying that rural people have a higher murder rate than urban people? But that black people, as a subdivision of the population, are responsible for an even disproportionate share of the lower level of urban murder? 

I can believe that some country areas suffer from a higher murder rate as my own seems to be considered a refuge for the mentally disturbed from the cities and a place to create drugs in relative isolation from the police, which then becomes a money maker for country youth who have little job options. A bad case of not in my backyard ism. And they tend to kill each other in the pursuit of even easier drug money. Even ten years ago that was not the case, but the free-for-all created by the almost instant reflex statements after Obama was elected that medical marijuana would not be prosecuted has lead to ever worsening problems that even the DOJ's reversal has not slowed.

But rural versus country is not the op's issue.

Me- I think violence is a disease created out of lack of self-respect, leading to posturing, and a condoning of disrespect by society out of misplaced guilt over other people's difficulties. And it spreads.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> There is a vast difference between facts and statistics which just are what they are and the internal motivations of people who create and vote for social welfare programs. We can sit down and look at the cold hard facts about who murders who and how. The numbers are right here in front of us. To accuse people of having evil motives is a far harder thing to quantify unless you are somehow Omniscient and able to read hearts and minds.
> 
> *I happen to believe a lot of those programs are good. *I have voted for and know a lot of Democrats. I know why I and they believe those programs to be a good and useful thing. Not one single one them, myself included wants those programs to hold anyone down. We all sincerely want to see poverty ended in this country. We all want to see every child get a good education and good job and have a decent home and a secure place to raise their children. You are welcome to say you think our ideas do not work the way we want them to and explain why and we can discuss that but slurring us by accusing us of evil motives ends all conversation.
> 
> Your accusations were wrong and extremely offensive and I labeled them exactly what they were: HOGWASH. Don't try to tell me what I think or why I do what I do. You are welcome to speak for yourself and I will be happy and interested to hear what you have to say but do not presume to think you know what I think or to speak for me.


My accusations were not directed at the average voter who has been duped into believing what the politicians spew forth. One only needs to look at the RESULTS of these various failed programs to see they are not effective nor are they what they appear to be on the surface. Now, there have been literally hundreds of these programs since FDR first sponsored and promoted them back in the 30s.... Would you care to bring forth a single one that has been anything close to a success story or as you put it "good"? I would love to hear about it. Paying people to be poor is a durn poor incentive for them to become productive. What you end up with is generational dependency and increasing numbers of poor people. Providing economic conditions that make business profitable is what will provide these good souls with jobs, and all those great things you claim to want for them. While you and the other progressives may not want any of these programs to hold people down..... the fact is that they DO!


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

where I want to said:


> Then you are saying that rural people have a higher murder rate than urban people? But that black people, as a subdivision of the population, are responsible for an even disproportionate share of the lower level of urban murder?
> 
> I can believe that some country areas suffer from a higher murder rate as my own seems to be considered a refuge for the mentally disturbed from the cities and a place to create drugs in relative isolation from the police, which then becomes a money maker for country youth who have little job options. A bad case of not in my backyard ism. And they tend to kill each other in the pursuit of even easier drug money. Even ten years ago that was not the case, but the free-for-all created by the almost instant reflex statements after Obama was elected that medical marijuana would not be prosecuted has lead to ever worsening problems that even the DOJ's reversal has not slowed.
> 
> ...


We see high murder rates in mostly white rural counties and in mostly black urban areas. That is supported by the statistics. Per capita murder rates are high in both. So the question we should be asking is what is the common denominator? It's obviously not race. 

The one thing those rural counties have in common with the urban areas of Kentucky is poverty. Extreme poverty leads inevitably to a lack of hope and violence. Yes you will always have the people who just keep going no matter what but the longer the poverty stays entrenched and the less hope there is the more violence and crime thrive. Kids grow up seeing the only people getting ahead in life are those who steal or those involved in drugs. In those rural white counties it may be growing pot or making meth. In the urban ones it is selling that meth and pot. Life is short and so kids get into the mindset of just wanting to get a bit of something before they die. Areas plagued by poverty tend to degenerate in other ways. People are tired and hopeless and they have children they don't want and can't take care of and the cycle just breeds more poverty, hopelessness and despair. 

The only thing that fixes the problem is a kid managing to get out of the area or someone coming along and cleaning it up and giving hope through education and jobs and a glimpse of a better life.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> My accusations were not directed at the average voter who has been duped into believing what the politicians spew forth. One only needs to look at the RESULTS of these various failed programs to see they are not effective nor are they what they appear to be on the surface. Now, there have been literally hundreds of these programs since FDR first sponsored and promoted them back in the 30s.... Would you care to bring forth a single one that has been anything close to a success story or as you put it "good"? I would love to hear about it. Paying people to be poor is a durn poor incentive for them to become productive. What you end up with is generational dependency and increasing numbers of poor people. Providing economic conditions that make business profitable is what will provide these good souls with jobs, and all those great things you claim to want for them. While you and the other progressives may not want any of these programs to hold people down..... the fact is that they DO!


See now this I have no problem with. Conservatives have their ideas on how to fix the world and so do liberals and they are frequently diametrically opposed. I am fine with debating whether or not your program or mine works and what is potentially best. 

I actually agree that a lot of programs were well intentioned but did not pan out the way they should. For example here in my rural county we have a high level of poverty. We have a lot of small farms, mainly raising cattle and we have a few local jobs but most people have to drive 30 miles or more to get to a job. That was fine before the gas went through the roof. These days the double wallop of the jobs drying up and the gasoline eating into the small paychecks they are getting means a lot of people are actually better off collecting unemployment or welfare subsidies of one sort or another. On the one hand that seems to support your argument that these programs are bad for people since they inspire them not to work. Ultimately though I don't think we will know until 2 things happen: the benefits run out (and all benefits except disability do run out) and the economy picks back up. Then we will see what these people do and whether they just used the programs to get them through the hard place or if they wind up doing nothing. Interestingly enough increasing the wages at the places these people were working at would get a lot of them back on their feet and back to work immediately. 

The other thing that I have seen out here is a migration of people moving back to Granny's old shack and trying to make a go of things someplace where they at least have free rent and can have a garden and some chickens. A lot of them didn't stick but some have. It's been nice to see old places fixed back up and gardens going again. I'd be willing to bet a few of my tax dollars went to these people too and I think that is great.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

"The only thing that fixes the problem is a kid managing to get out of the area or someone coming along and cleaning it up and giving hope through education and jobs and a glimpse of a better life."

I saw that in action. Blacks that moved from the poverty of the south, came to Michigan to earn big bucks in the factories. They did well, despite a degree of racial prejudices. These people had grown up in hard work and low pay and enjoyed the opportunities presented them. Then, in the 1950s and 60s, these people reached out to family members that remained in the poverty ridden south. "Come on north, to the land of opportunity." was the call. Often these young adults had troubled pasts. They were sent north before their behavior bought them an early death. But, instead, Detroit, Pontiac, Flint, Saginaw became their new battlegrounds. They brought their violence with them. This triggered "White Flight" to the suburbs. This caused industry to withdraw from these powerful industrial centers. Some fought against it and died, others simply walked away. Poverty did not cause the violence. Violence caused the poverty.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

haypoint said:


> "The only thing that fixes the problem is a kid managing to get out of the area or someone coming along and cleaning it up and giving hope through education and jobs and a glimpse of a better life."
> 
> I saw that in action. Blacks that moved from the poverty of the south, came to Michigan to earn big bucks in the factories. They did well, despite a degree of racial prejudices. These people had grown up in hard work and low pay and enjoyed the opportunities presented them. Then, in the 1950s and 60s, these people reached out to family members that remained in the poverty ridden south. "Come on north, to the land of opportunity." was the call. Often these young adults had troubled pasts. They were sent north before their behavior bought them an early death. But, instead, Detroit, Pontiac, Flint, Saginaw became their new battlegrounds. They brought their violence with them. This triggered "White Flight" to the suburbs. This caused industry to withdraw from these powerful industrial centers. Some fought against it and died, others simply walked away. Poverty did not cause the violence. Violence caused the poverty.


So why in your opinion did the first group come up there and thrive and the second one did not?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> So why in your opinion did the first group come up there and thrive and the second one did not?


Society's attitude changed. Most southern Blacks, born in the 1910s knew what would happen if they stole a car, just as most blacks, born in the 1950s and 60s knew what would happen if they stole a car. The difference is vast. Racial prejudices often resulted in swift, cruel illegal punishments. Go to work every day, keep your head down, get educated and don't look a White guy in the eyes seemed to work. They built strong families, strong neighborhoods and community pride. Prey on the working class, get loud, get street smart, avoid education and confront everyone seemed to be the marching orders for this newest generation of intercity population. They controlled their neighborhoods with violence. They now preside over the burned rubble of vacant communities, penny less and fatherless.
The enlightened populations of the 1960-70s tolerated oddball behavior, demanded equal and super equal treatment of all minorities. We provided the excuses for their actions.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

haypoint said:


> Society's attitude changed. They controlled their neighborhoods with violence. They now preside over the burned rubble of vacant communities, penny less and fatherless.
> The enlightened populations of the 1960-70s tolerated oddball behavior, demanded equal and super equal treatment of all minorities. We provided the excuses for their actions.


Yep- there was a clearer sense that society benefited from the hard working citizen who took care of his family and that society had the right to express that to people who offended that sense. A good father was respected and expected to raise his chikdren to be good too, no matter how short of ideal that often was.
Then the bigotry that played out became confused with the expression of society's displeasure. It was decided that the society that could tolerate such horrendous and violent racism could not have any good to offer and all its functions were condemned. 
Black people who sought to restrain the behavior of young black people were called Uncle Toms or oreos. And white people who tried to do the same were accused of racism by both black and white young people. The ethetics of hard work and responsibility, honesty and respect were lost in a storm of young people who thought they knew better and older people who accomodated them. Drug addiction and violence had little but law enforcement to try and stop the spread. And that certainly did not work out. 
And the same people who created this change in the 60s and 70s are still in love with this ideal. I saw a Murphy Brown reunion a couple of days ago where the TV talking heads were rhapodizing about how the TV character had put Dan Quail and his remarks about the importance of fathers in the family in his place. Of course they will then have another show making a hero out of the ubiquitous "single mother" struggling to raise her children without a pause to think about the connection between the two.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> We see high murder rates in mostly white rural counties and in mostly black urban areas. That is supported by the statistics. Per capita murder rates are high in both. So the question we should be asking is what is the common denominator? It's obviously not race.
> 
> The one thing those rural counties have in common with the urban areas of Kentucky is poverty. Extreme poverty leads inevitably to a lack of hope and violence. Yes you will always have the people who just keep going no matter what but the longer the poverty stays entrenched and the less hope there is the more violence and crime thrive. Kids grow up seeing the only people getting ahead in life are those who steal or those involved in drugs. In those rural white counties it may be growing pot or making meth. In the urban ones it is selling that meth and pot. Life is short and so kids get into the mindset of just wanting to get a bit of something before they die. Areas plagued by poverty tend to degenerate in other ways. People are tired and hopeless and they have children they don't want and can't take care of and the cycle just breeds more poverty, hopelessness and despair.
> 
> The only thing that fixes the problem is a kid managing to get out of the area or someone coming along and cleaning it up and giving hope through education and jobs and a glimpse of a better life.


Actually if you will look at the stats over the years, violent crime rates drop during hard times, (such as the great depression) and increase with prosperity. those stats kinda blows holes in the above theory.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

haypoint said:


> Society's attitude changed. Most southern Blacks, born in the 1910s knew what would happen if they stole a car, just as most blacks, born in the 1950s and 60s knew what would happen if they stole a car. The difference is vast. Racial prejudices often resulted in swift, cruel illegal punishments. Go to work every day, keep your head down, get educated and don't look a White guy in the eyes seemed to work. They built strong families, strong neighborhoods and community pride. Prey on the working class, get loud, get street smart, avoid education and confront everyone seemed to be the marching orders for this newest generation of intercity population. They controlled their neighborhoods with violence. They now preside over the burned rubble of vacant communities, penny less and fatherless.
> The enlightened populations of the 1960-70s tolerated oddball behavior, demanded equal and super equal treatment of all minorities. We provided the excuses for their actions.


I can't respond to this without getting in serious trouble.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Actually if you will look at the stats over the years, violent crime rates drop during hard times, (such as the great depression) and increase with prosperity. those stats kinda blows holes in the above theory.


This whole article is very interesting but I think this response is very pertinent to our discussion: http://freakonomics.com/2011/06/08/...ng-a-bad-economy-does-crime-continue-to-fall/



> *William J. Bratton* is the only person to have ever led the two largest police forces in the U.S., NYPD and LAPD. He is currently vice chair of the Homeland Security Advisory Council, and chairman of Kroll, a leading risk-consulting firm.There is no immediate causal relationship between poverty or economic downturns and crime. An increase in employment or a decline in GDP usually will not lead to a commensurate increase in criminal activity. This is because most poor people are not criminals and never will be, even if their circumstances grow markedly worse. They are more likely to take the pressures of bad times out on themselves and their families: suicide rates and domestic violence rates often rise faster in downturns than property crime and violent crime against strangers.
> 
> This statement comes with a major proviso, however. Extended and severe downturns that engender long-term unemployment rates of 15 or 20 percent in poor and minority communities _can_ have criminogenic effects, not only because they foreclose economic opportunities, but also because they perpetuate an underclass culture that fails to educate and socialize young men. As these young men grow, they become the foot soldiers for crime of all kinds, including drug dealing, robberies, burglaries, auto theft, and other larcenies, as well as targeted and random shootings in the public square.
> 
> Such extended downturns are also likely to cause revenue shortfalls at the state and local levels that may result in sharp cuts to policing and other government services, as is already happening now. These cuts tend to reduce dramatically the staffing flexibility of police managers and the very innovative policing programs that have helped drive the crime decline of the past 20 years because the resources that remain are needed for baseline operations. If the police are disabled in this way just as a larger pool of crime-prone youth comes on the scene, you might see a repeat nationwide of the circumstances that drove crime in New York City in the late 1970s and 1980s. Disabled significantly by the New York City fiscal crisis and subsequent layoffs of police personnel, the NYPD failed to contend with the emerging crack epidemic of the early 1980s, and violent crime surged. With these dual factors â poorly socialized youth and weakened police departments â simultaneously at work, the long-term outlook for crime could worsen significantly, and the positive crime trends of the past 20 years could be reversed.​


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

He has a bad case of "feed me."


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> So why in your opinion did the first group come up there and thrive and the second one did not?


It wasn't totally the second one. They got progressively worse and the same is happening with Hispanics. The first ones were hard working and caused little trouble. Neither group came from a place that told them they were victims. Both groups had to work hard to survive. When one has people telling them they are victims and can't make it on their own, they won't. Taking the government handouts is easier. Unfortunately the handouts also give you a lot of free time to hang out on the streets with your friends instead of being home in bed tired from a day's work. Young people with too much free time is a recipe for trouble. Don't deny it. I was young once and remember how it was.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> My accusations were not directed at the average voter who has been duped into believing what the politicians spew forth. One only needs to look at the RESULTS of these various failed programs to see they are not effective nor are they what they appear to be on the surface. Now, there have been literally hundreds of these programs since FDR first sponsored and promoted them back in the 30s.... Would you care to bring forth a single one that has been anything close to a success story or as you put it "good"? I would love to hear about it. Paying people to be poor is a durn poor incentive for them to become productive. What you end up with is generational dependency and increasing numbers of poor people. Providing economic conditions that make business profitable is what will provide these good souls with jobs, and all those great things you claim to want for them. While you and the other progressives may not want any of these programs to hold people down..... the fact is that they DO!


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> Yesterday a white boy took 3 guns and killed 7 people and wounded 13 more because he had mental issues. Still waiting for the thread about white people killing people with guns since mass murderers are pretty much always white males.


Actually he used a knife on 3, a gun on 3, and a car on the 13, yet the libs are only calling for another gun ban


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Patchouli said:


> Can't argue with my facts or statistics so you resort to insults.



Two ways of looking at it (using the facts given)

1. the real way:
24% of murders being committed by 7.8 % of the population. 7.8% being the percentage of blacks in the total population of Kentucky.

2. The liberal politically correct way: 76% of murders are committed by whites


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> Can't argue with my facts or statistics so you resort to insults.


Sorry. I was being mean. That said. You got no facts, just an abundance of tightly held opinions.


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