# Questions for Christians, Pagans, or any other faith..



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Ok, I have some questions for those of the various religious beliefs. 

First... what is your belief?
Two... why do you believe the way you do? How you were taught? by parents? Worldly experience? other... please explain. 

Three.. Have you ever had an honest to goodness "sitty down on a stump" type talk with the God of your faith... not just a prayer to Him asking for this that or the other, but a real one on one, face to face talk where you asked questions, and received answers to those specific questions right then and there? 

I would love to hear about anyones experiences and compare notes.


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

_Well, you asked for it  I gave this testimony a little over a year ago at our local town hall._

*My Testimony*
Childhood Memories
I was born near Junction City, WI, the youngest of 4 kids. The spoiled brat to my older siblings. I was 5 years younger than the next youngest, so from age 11 on I was the only kid at home most of the time.

My childhood was filled with good memories and very bad ones. My mom was like a saint, putting all the rest of the families needs before her own. I had a father that tried his best to be a better father than his (abusive father) was. And my dad was a better father. He took me fishing & hunting, played with me out in the yard after he got home from working construction all day (even into his 50&#8217;s), and tried his best to be a good dad. And by many accounts, he was a great dad. He never missed a day of work that I remember and I am convinced he would have laid his life down for any one of us. But my dad drank excessively at times with his buddies on construction, leading to yelling at my mom, breaking things, and even striking her a few times. At those times I felt like I was living in a single parent home. I cried myself to sleep many times, convinced our home was going to disintegrate. My father tried, on his own, to be &#8220;a good person&#8221;, but this just didn&#8217;t work once the booze kicked in. The alcohol got the better of him. The drinking situation got much better once he retired, about the time I left home. But I think I still carried a lot of bitterness. In today&#8217;s world, I see a lot of situations even tougher than mine was, with broken homes and substance abuse almost being the norm in some places. And each situation often will produce a new generation to repeat the cycle.

*Church*
I was brought up in Catholic church. Truthfully, I had a confused idea how to be saved. In first communion class I was taught the catecism teaching that one mortal sin un-confessed to a priest, at any time in one&#8217;s life, would send them to hell (this is actually part of the catecism). Also, the general idea that I heard was that &#8220;if you lived a good enough life, you would go to heaven&#8221;. How good? I often wondered. I grew up in fear of religion because religion made me uneasy. I never knew if the un-confessed sin in my life fell into the &#8220;mortal&#8221; category. Also I never knew if I was &#8220;good enough&#8221;. I grew to dislike going to church.

*Into The Adult Years*
Upon age 17 I started drinking with friends from high school. By age 18 I was already drinking fairly regularly, almost every Friday night and even on week nights. At that time, it was legal for an 18 year old to drink in WI. Truthfully, it seemed like an OK thing to do. In the world I grew up in, alcohol seemed to play an integral role in holiday get-togethers, weddings, and most other social activities. Only my mom abstained from nearly all alcohol use. At the Thanksgiving meal even the kids were given wine.

Once in college, I abandoned church almost altogether. My lifestyle got wilder with each passing year. A guy like me did not belong in church. Church was for people &#8220;living a good life&#8221;. I would go to Catholic church every once in a while, but it had no effect on me other than to make me feel uneasy about myself, which I suppose was not the worst thing. What I see in today&#8217;s world is no church at all in the lives of many. In all this I was truly unhappy.

*The 4 Spiritual Laws*
In my sophomore year in college I met a girl that was a &#8220;born again Christian&#8221;. Of all places, I met her in a bar! If I were ever to see this lady again I would rebuke her for ever getting involved with me! Still, we started dating somewhat seriously. Her friends of Campus Crusade for Christ were very concerned about her. They sent an older man, Jerry D., to try and get me on the right track. Jerry, to me, seemed like a 100 years old (since he was bald) but in actuality he was maybe 35. He took me out for &#8220;coffee and pie&#8221;, which appealed to me. The pie part anyway. Jerry outlined the 4 spiritual laws. I still remember the diagram of a canyon with sinful man on one side, God on the other, and the cross of Jesus bridging the gap.

*The Verses*
Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God&#8217;s one and only Son.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God&#8217;s wrath remains on them.
Acts 16:31 &#8220;Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved&#8212;you and your household.&#8221;
Ephesians 3:12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

*7 Years of Rejecting The Message*
I rejected that message, but it never left me. The Christian girl and I broke up and she married a very good Christian man that I knew. Although truthfully, at the time I did not think of him as very good! I spent the next 7 years living in the world, increasingly restless. I was not destitute though - I got my degree in Paper Science and Engineering at UWSP and then got a very good paying job. The pay I had back then would be equivalent to about $70,000 now! Imagine being a young single guy with that much money. I thought that life would be good. My Dad was very proud of me and used to brag to everyone about me. Still, after the infatuation of almost unlimited money wore off, I was unhappy. Very unhappy to the point of going into a state of depression on several occasions. I would go out on the town on Friday, Saturday and even some Wednesday nights. I longed for friendship, but the fellow &#8220;bar flies&#8221; simply wanted someone along so they wouldn&#8217;t feel like an alcoholic. I longed for &#8220;love&#8221;, unconditional love. I went through a number of relationships, often getting bored with them and quitting on them, or messing them up myself. I had this reoccurring dream (maybe 4 or 5 times) where I was crying and saying aloud &#8216;I just want to be loved&#8221;.

*Accepting the Message*
Nearly 7 years after hearing the 4 Spiritual Laws from Jerry D., an older lady at work named Patty that seemed to genuinely care about me told about a group of Charismatic Catholics that met on a Wednesday night at a school. Through all this time, I sealed myself off from any other religion but the Catholic one I was raised in. I would occasionally go to a Catholic service. So this group seemed like something I should check out. I attended one of the meetings. This was not a &#8220;religious service&#8221; like I was used to. Instead, this group of Charismatic Catholics proclaimed Jesus with all their hearts and they were quite animated and even &#8220;praying in the spirit&#8221; while they worshipped. Instead of getting alarmed by some of this unusual behavior, a message was spoken into my heart. There was something going on that I can not even describe. But it seemed quite real. I remember going home and running 6:45 miles (first time ever) in my 3 mile run! Still, I did not fully accept Jesus as payment for my shortcomings, but there was definitely something new and different about my mindset. Around this time, I lost my good job at the paper mill and had to take a much more difficult factory job for less pay working tortuous shift work. 12 hour night shifts lifting and stacking rolls of printed plastic weighing over 100 pounds. Some 140! This experience seemed to break me. I quit, with no other job, tried to sell my house but still had a house payment to make, and intentions to start college again. I spent a lot of &#8220;quiet time&#8217; waiting for the realtor to call, getting more anxious by the day. And my roommates moved out, taking their rent payments with them. Everything seemed to be closing in. With no job, it would only be a matter of time til I lost the house and brought shame upon myself and family.

Finally, a full 7 years after my meeting with Jerry D., I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior. Within days, a lot of things happened. I got my realtor to break our contract and then a friend from my former job sold my house in a matter of days (at zero commission). A buddy from high school who became a lawyer, did the paperwork for me at no cost. I had enough money to pay off all my debts and head up to UWS. But a few months later, as my friend and I drove up to UWS, I kept on driving to Duluth! I then attended UMD to get a teaching secondary math certificate and also a subsequent Masters in Applied Math.

*A New Life*
In Duluth I met my wife Renee. We settled in Duluth for 7 years and then moved out to Oulu where we are now. Before I accepted Christ, I was almost convinced no woman would be right for me. They all bored me or I scared them away. My parents stopped getting excited over the next girl I brought home for them to meet &#8211; they knew it would fizzle out. I would wreck the relationship or grow tired of it. But God found for me, the most interesting woman in Renee! And she is pretty darned cute! And I manage to behave myself now. Pretty much anyway.

*Growing in My Faith*
It has been almost 27 years since the time I accepted Christ. My faith has had ups and downs, and I have come to realize something very important: I can not be half-way about my faith! It needs to be #1 in my life, ALL the time. Sadly, I must admit that in these last 27 years it has not always been that way. Several events gave me a sense of urgency, however. The first major event was when I was a new believer, I prayed one night that I could see a glimpse of heaven. That night I had a dream where my father was crying and I was yelling at him, but he did not reply. It was clear to me the next day: I had bitterness in my heart. I was to forgive my father for all misdeeds, unconditionally, as Jesus forgave me. I always remember this dream, whenever any bitterness toward anyone creeps in. In Matthew 18: 21, The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant, a servant was forgiven a tremendous debt, yet he would not forgive a small debt owed him. This servant was then tortured and jailed. Jesus forgave my BIG debt. Now I must forgive the small debts. In the last 5 years of my dads life, when my mom went to the nursing home, I called him daily &#8211; we became very close and I miss talking to him.

The next big event, some 7 years ago was when my very good friend Shawn M. got terminally ill with Leukemia. This shook me up quite a bit. He died and this made me get a bit more serious with my spiritual life. Shawn&#8217;s death saddened me a lot, and it made me think I needed to pray more, and I need to be more of a 24/7 Christian, and not one that only worries about Sunday and maybe Wednesday.. After this I joined a men&#8217;s weekly prayer group through our local fellowship with Al & Troy S., Matt S., Luke W., & Larry F. &#8211; this was one of the best things for me as it helped keep my focus. Then, my third cousin Linda of Proctor was diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer. In July 2009 she was given about a year to live. They gave her indefinite chemo to make her last months or years of living of better quality &#8211; there was no plan for cure. It was just a death sentence, as Linda herself even called it. She had two girls that needed her very much, one with a disability. So I prayed and prayed and prayed for her. I still do. Linda is off treatment now and doing very well. I pray that she can one day hold her grandchild in her arms &#8211; I very much believe that this will happen, assuming she has a grandchild of course.

*God&#8217;s Plan For All of Us*
I believe God has a plan for each of us. As the bible says. And it is up to us to follow that plan, or go our own way, with prayers of others playing a part in a way I truthfully can not explain, but I simply believe that faith, obedience, and prayer are all important. I believe it is no accident that I am here right now sharing all this and you are hearing what is being said.

We can do great things for the Kingdom of God, even if we are not a missionary or pastor of a church. Bringing up our kids as God would have us is a great thing in itself. We can share the Gospel with others. We can pray for others. We have a purpose!

*Faith*
Many want absolute proof of God and proof of His plan for humanity. In the universities, evolution is taught as a fact, when the fact is, all the modern (atheist) scientists in the world can not honestly explain the complexities of life and how it originated. See my paper _The Creation Paper_ that I spent over a year working on if you want to read more about this &#8211; there are cards on the table. Still, even with all the scientific evidence suggesting a creator, it boils down to faith.

The Bible says we must have faith like a child. Luke 18:17 says &#8220;Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.&#8221; And Matthew 18:3 says &#8220;Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.&#8221; The decision is up to you. Follow God&#8217;s plan, or your own.

*Prayer*
Lord God I pray right now that the gospel verses spoken tonight will be stored in peoples hearts like they were in mine so many years ago. I pray that all here see the seriousness of their role here on earth. I pray that all here see they have a purpose, there is a Divine plan. I pray that all here would be moved to follow that plan. In Jesus Name. Amen.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

MichaelZ said:


> Instead of getting alarmed by some of this unusual behavior, *a message was spoken into my heart.* There was something going on that I can not even describe. But it seemed quite real.


Thank you for the very well written testimonial... of which each and every word I appreciate and value the importance of... The above snippet however is the part that I am the most interested in hearing more about. You say you cannot really describe what was going on... and I do not doubt your word on that for a New York minute! I find that our language (at least what little of the language I am familiar with) makes it incredibly difficult to describe most things having to do with spiritual awareness. It is this very aspect that I am hoping someone can put a bit more light on for everyones benefit. You say a "message was spoken in to your heart". Is it possible for you to relate to us a bit more about what that message was?


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## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Thank you for the very well written testimonial... of which each and every word I appreciate and value the importance of... The above snippet however is the part that I am the most interested in hearing more about. You say you cannot really describe what was going on... and I do not doubt your word on that for a New York minute! I find that our language (at least what little of the language I am familiar with) makes it incredibly difficult to describe most things having to do with spiritual awareness. It is this very aspect that I am hoping someone can put a bit more light on for everyones benefit. You say a "message was spoken in to your heart". Is it possible for you to relate to us a bit more about what that message was?


The message to me was that Jesus is more than just a historical figure and that His teaching is more than a religion or attending a church, whatever denomination it might be. And it seemed to validate the things spoken to me years earlier, as if God was saying "Those verses shared with you 7 years earlier were indeed the Truth". From that point in time I started reading the Bible on my own.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

First... what is your belief?

Christian 


 Two... why do you believe the way you do? How you were taught? by parents? Worldly experience? other... please explain.









How long do you want this to be? Yes I originally began attending church because my guardian did. However after studying several other ways of life, this one fits me. However, while my Faith is strong, my attachment to the religion they took me to, is not. All religions are off based. Only Faith is pure and can not be tainted. Religion is man made (Other than Judaism which God set up)

Three.. Have you ever had an honest to goodness "sitty down on a stump" type talk with the God of your faith... not just a prayer to Him asking for this that or the other, but a real one on one, face to face talk where you asked questions, and received answers to those specific questions right then and there?

I do this all the time. Most folks think I am talking to myself but I am working things out by putting my questions out to God and listening for the leading he promises to provide. Yes many times I have seen things that totally stumped me resolve themselves as a result of these chats.


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## sustainabilly (Jun 20, 2012)

1. Almost every organized religion stems from a few basic concepts. Most of these deal with the best, most productive and compassionate, way to live with your fellow human beings. Those concepts formed the foundations for religion, before it was religion. In short, spirituality. It doesn't matter to me what one calls themself. Only how they choose to live within their belief system. Their actions will show me if they are true to their beliefs. 

2. I think K.I.S.S. applies here. I start with the above and, generally, everything else falls neatly into place. Didn't always think this way. Had to learn humility first.

3. See last sentence.


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

I consider myself "Other." I'm sort of a Pagan agnostic, I suppose.

I was raised Catholic, but the Pagan gods and practices are more what jive with my soul.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, I have some questions for those of the various religious beliefs.
> 
> First... what is your belief?
> Two... why do you believe the way you do? How you were taught? by parents? Worldly experience? other... please explain.
> ...


My belief is that which I feel appropriate for my religious needs as is anyone's choice of religion.

The reason I embrace my belief of choosing is twofold , The first reason is that for the first 15 years of my life my parents exposed me to their beliefs and a number of many others until the time that they felt I was adequately exposed to enough to choose a path that provided for my needs or none at all. The second reason is that a pastor of one faith I was being exposed to when I was 10 scoffed at an emotional loss I was facing at the time and biased me against the faith he represented and at the same time pushed me closer to a faith I was exposed to a year earlier.

In the years since I have come to understand that the particular pastor while representative of many short sighted individuals of many faiths beside his own did not represent all followers of his faith or any other and I learned to respect all others faiths _____ as long as they are not extremists and have desire to kill me or others.

Yes I have talked to my Gods. Sometimes the answer is yes. Sometimes the answer is no. Sometimes when we talk they respond with a bountiful harvest of whatever I am pursuing. Sometimes they remind me the bounty of simple humility and humbleness.


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## Pat-wcWI (Oct 28, 2012)

I am a Born Again Christian.

For me, finding Jesus Christ was gradual. I went to different churches, watched Billy Graham on TV and almost went to Mpls to see him, but backed out at the last minute feeling somehow I wasn't ready for the whole experience.

Then a series of personal and family tragedies over a couple of years caused me to start to pray to the Lord, first asking "why". It was after my feeling comfortable praying that I actually felt the Holy Spirit come over me. To describe it, I would have to say it started as a feeling of peace that increased 100-fold in a few minutes time while in prayer.


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## EDDIE BUCK (Jul 17, 2005)

*I hope its OK to use this testimony that I posted back in 09.I will never forget what I believe was God,not in an audible voice,but still reminding me that I should share my blessings that He so graciously bestows on me every day of my life.Stop putting me, me, me,first all the time, and think about others.

Most every day that passes, I think back to that event, and see if things are in order, and am I doing what God would have me to.

You folks on here that are saved,you know what I'm talking about, when things happen in your life that has God's finger prints all over them. Here's one I'd like to tell.Its been about twenty years ,but seems like just yesterday. *

While Bo my wife,,and I were living on the river, we ate a lot of fish.Anyway,one day I told her that I would go and try to catch at least three crappie,one for her,one for my son and one for me.There were nice crappie in that spot.

I drove my boat down the river past two creeks that were on the right.No one else was in the creeks or river fishing.I could see the end in those creeks and no one was there. The next creek on the left is where I went and it just runs a short distance and it dead ends.Anyway I was anchored just a few feet just out of the river in the mouth of the creek.I had been setting there about an hour and a half and had caught two nice crappie. (only one more needed for supper)

Soon a boat with two men came from down the river and started fishing in the same creek as me.They hollered and asked had I caught any crappie, and I hollered back,I have caught two. They fished up one side the creek, and I saw them catch one, and as they were fishing down the side I was on,they caught one more.Well they pulled up beside me, and they told me about the two they had just caught, and said they were going to the next creek up, and try to catch two more for supper.

They started the motor and went to the next creek and cut the motor off, and I thought started fishing. While I was talking to those two men,I couldn't help but notice the man in the front of the boat,had both legs removed from the knees down. Anyway as I sat there trying to catch that last fish I needed for supper,I started having this deep down feeling, that I should go and give my two fish to them, and that would make them four, and they would have plenty for supper, and I lived on the river and could fish most anytime anyway.

Well I thought that would be the right thing to do,so I cranked my boat up, and run the short ways to the creek they were fishing in,BUT NO ONE WAS THERE.There was nowhere to hide the boat or take it out.Now I know they were there because I could hear them talking a little before I cranked my boat.I started looking trying to see anything under water or floating that would let me know they had sunk and maybe drowned,NOTHING.

Nothing to do but go home and call 911 or someone that could come search for them.I cranked up and went back to my house. I pulled my boat up to where I kept it tied, and tied it,reached down and got my cooler with them two fish in it, and started walking toward the house,all at once I heard a boat coming from up the river,the opposite direction from where me and those two men were fishing.The boat started slowing down and pulled up where my boat was tied, and cut the motor off,I had never seen this fellow in my life, and he said,I was up the river bass fishing and I caught this nice crappie.

He reached down and picked it up and said, I was wondering would you like it for your supper.I said Mr,you just don't know how much I appreciate you giving me that fish,how did you know I already had two and needed one more? 
He cranked the motor smiled and took off. Folks, I didn't make that phone call,after the fellow gave me that fish. I knew those two fellows in the other boat were doing just fine where ever they were at.

I never saw any of those folks again, but I'm looking forward to one day I,ll see them, and that other guy will have two good legs as I'm telling him how good those Three fish were.

Hebrews 13:2
Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Oh,my wife and I are Christians and we were raised in Baptists churches.She started out in MO and now lives here in the sticks with me in eastern NC.Another happening with God's finger prints on it.LOL


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## RichInPA (Nov 13, 2013)

I am a Pagan, I practice Asatru.

I was raised Roman Catholic, and was an Altar Boy for 8 years.

I believe in Nature, equality for all (regardless of race, religion, or sexual orientation).

I despise those that use their religion as a weapon.

Research the Council's of Nicea and Constantinople, where 180-300 bishops and cardinals (per council) got together to decide what to change, add, and remove from the bible.

As long as you treat people well, and act like a decent person, what does your religion matter?


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## tiffnzacsmom (Jan 26, 2006)

I'm also Asatru and am a former Catholic. I left the church for me as it no longer fit not as any act of rebellion or do to anger with the faith. 

I've had dreams involving the gods but I can't say it was them talking to me. I do know that I have a wonderful community that I never had before and would not have met if I wasn't on this path. 

I would never degrade someone for their path though there are some aspects of many that I do not agree with. Take care of your part of the world to leave it better for our descendents.


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## mrsgcpete (Sep 16, 2012)

First... what is your belief? UNIVERSALIST/ AGNOSTIC

Two... why do you believe the way you do? How you were taught? by parents? Worldly experience? other... please explain. I was raised Roman Catholic, my husband converted to Roman Catholic and We were Raising our children Roman Catholic, But i have never felt it in my gut. Almost 1 1/2years ago we left the catholic church very unceremoniously and never went back, we know attend a liberal Lutheran church. The pastor knows that I dont share his christian beliefs and is okay with that. My gut instinct tells me that there is one God being, that is interpreted by people all over the world in many different ways. 

Three.. Have you ever had an honest to goodness "sitty down on a stump" type talk with the God of your faith... not just a prayer to Him asking for this that or the other, but a real one on one, face to face talk where you asked questions, and received answers to those specific questions right then and there? Nope, that would probably clear up the agnostic part if it happened.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, I have some questions for those of the various religious beliefs.
> 
> First... what is your belief?


I believe the Bible.
I believe everything in it, and the stuff I don't get....I believe the Spirit will enlighten me, if needed.



> Two... why do you believe the way you do?


The Spirit confirms it.



> How you were taught? by parents? Worldly experience? other... please explain.


My mom took us to church for xmas and easter.
My neighbors took us to Vacation Bible School, and lived out The Word in front of us.



> Three.. Have you ever had an honest to goodness "sitty down on a stump" type talk with the God of your faith... not just a prayer to Him asking for this that or the other, but a real one on one, face to face talk where you asked questions, and received answers to those specific questions right then and there?


Yes, and yes.
I have also had long (months long) discussions that I have yet to receive and answer.
I am about to have a long discussion, again, same topic, new twist.
I am starting to wonder if He made and exception to His rule of "never giving us more than we can bare"......


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I am really enjoying these responses! Looking forward to some good discussion as soon as we have heard from a few more.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

Asatru is my belief system, raised that way. One parent Catholic and the other Asatru. I try to follow the Virtues, 
Courage
Truth
Honor
Fidelity
Discipline
Hospitality
Industriousness
Self-reliance
Perseverance


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Christian and I always have been, although not always a good one in my youth. Hard to explain but I have always known it was the only way. The Bible proves it. No one has ever been able to explain to me how prophets thousands of years ago could foretell exactly what people would live where in the end times and what they would do unless it was God instructing them. Read the prophets and look at what is happening today. It is all unfolding exactly as written.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

All I can say is wow... a brave set of questions for an internet forum... and actually some really great non-confrontational replies... .I think that says a WHOLE lot about how great this forum is.. 

Myself... I had to go to church all the time.. Methodist... up until I was on my own.. 

All I'll say is I can only believe in the things I see or is proven fact, and I sure saw a whole lot of hypocrisy in the religious realm..


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## Hollowdweller (Jul 13, 2011)

2 songs

*Forms are loosely fitting
Jury still are sitting
Sense of duty keeps us all in motion
Prison sirens wailing
That security is failing
Do not inspire a lifetime of devotion
No one will sympathize
No one really tries
They need a faith that leads them like a drum
And I can hear it pounding down among the ruins
Sad to say, I don't think I'm the only one.

I awoke and someone spoke
They asked me in a whisper
If all my dreams and visions had been answered
And I don't know what to say
I never even pray
I just feel the pulse of universal dancers
They'll waltz me till I die
They'll never tell me why
I never stop to ask them where we're going
Yes, but the holy, the profane
Are all helplessly insane
Wishful, hopeful, never even knowing.

And they asked if I believe
And do the angels really grieve
Or is it all a comforting invention?
It's just like gravity, I said
It's not a product of my head
It doesn't speak, but nonetheless commands attention
And I don't care what it means
Or who decorates the scenes
The problem is more with my sense of pride
Because it keeps me thinking "me"
Instead of what it is to be
I'm not a passenger, I am the ride
I'm not a passenger
I am the ride *
*
and



I am not a prophet,
I wouldn't be one if you paid me,
But it doesn't take a lot to see ,
Just where you're headed lately,
Pretty soon you're gonna ask me,
How come the life you lead,
Doesn't make you very happy,
Or satisfy your needs,
You talk about your needs as though
You know just what they are,
When in fact to really know them,
Is like travelling to a star,
It takes so long you die along the way,
So I say hey, hey, hey.

C'mon, siddown,
Let's talk about illusion,
How everything is made of it,
No wonder life's confusin',
All this stuff we take for granted,
So solid to the touch,
Is just a concrete indication,
That we love ourselves too much,
But if we don't love ourselves, you say,
Who will? Whatever for?
I say, that's a better question
Than the one you asked before,
But the answer is still just as far away,
So I say hey, hey, hey.

Let go of all of this,
Forget about your reason,
You can leave it all behind you,
You can start another season,
All these silly little fictions,
Are gonna take you by surprise,
When you see them in the daylight
And finally realize,
You told them to yourself,
Nobody else was listening,
You'll be standing broken-hearted,
Like a disillusioned Christian,
With your mouth open but nothin' left to say,
So just say hey, hey, hey.

*


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## WV Farm girl (Nov 26, 2011)

I am Christian - Methodist. I was raised that way. My Dad accepted Christ when I was young. I can remember him being baptized and he lives a Christian life everyday. He is the best man I know and is my inspiration. 

I do not however go to church regularly. Every church I go to starts talking about $ and it angers me. God doesn't want my money, HE wants me to be a good person. I try to be. Fail miserable sometimes, but I do try. 

I have had experiences. Seen and heard things, felt things that I can't explain except to confirm to me that there is an afterlife. No I haven't had a face to face convo with God. I'm not worthy of that, but I like to think HE directs me sometimes. 
I believe in the Bible. I think more people should read it and be taught it, I think the world wld be a better place if it occurred. I do strongly believe "What you do onto others you do onto me". This includes our treatment of animals. There is no need for cruelty, we are Stewards and need to act as such. I do believe there will be an accounting of our actions. 

I have always been interested in other religions, the why and how of them. I look forward to other's comments.


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## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

one---the apostles creed explains my beliefs
two---I gained my belief from the holy spirit thru my mother,pastors,other people,and my own bible study.Reading the bible is not enough,you have to study it with prayer in my opinion.


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## Twp.Tom (Dec 29, 2010)

Y.H., I have enjoyed reading your posts. I usually like your point of view. I think this is a good thread, to include here on HT, as I feel that everyone has a belief/unbelief. I am very interested in other peoples opinions, as I have always had many questions about these topics. First, and foremost, I respect everybody's opinions, as I feel that everybody should be able to believe what they want, as long as they are not hurting anyone. I was introduced to the Roman Catholic Faith, as an infant-they want to perform a Baptism as soon as possible when the child is young. My parents brought me to the church, I was ceremoniously dunked in "Holy Water", prayers were spoken over me, and I was on my way to being a "Catholic". My parents brought my sister, and I to church with them on Sunday's, Once a week, we attended "Mass". Mass was about a 1 hour meeting. The other people at Mass were our neighbors, other local Catholics. Back in the 60's,about half of the Mass was spoken in Latin. I did not understand everything said, and I would get sleepy sometimes, and want to doze off . Our "Parish" was established by German immigrants back in the 1800's. The "Church", was a gigantic sandstone structure. There were beautiful stained glass windows-14 of them-each one depicting the "Stations of The Cross" The "Altar" was Massive, carved , and scrolled oak." Jesus ",was hanging on the cross Behind the center of the altar. I am not sure, But I think that the statue of "Mary" was on the right, and the statue of Joseph ,was on the left. There were some really fancy candles, and other adornments. The "Chalice " (a very shiny gold metal drinking cup),sat at the center of the altar table. It sure was a fancy place. There was an old "pipe organ" ,up on the balcony. The organist would accompany the congregation, as we sang a few Hymns during mass. I attended grade school, next to the church-the "parish school". I was "educated" by the "Nun's"-they were "Sisters of Notre Dame". They wore long black "habits", that flowed down to the floor (covering their shoes) ,and black "veils" that covered their heads. All you could see was their face, and their hands. For the most part, they were fairly nice "Sisters". They did believe in corporal punishment, and I got wacked by rulers ,yardsticks ,paddles, they would even grab us by the ears ,and yank us around ("us", meaning the non-conforming ,behavioral problem kids-me). We had "Uniforms"-the boys wore white shirts , red ties ,blue pants. The girls wore Red Plaid dresses, and white blouses , and saddle shoes. We had religion class every day at school. For about an hour a day , we would read out of the bible ,and discuss God , and our religion. This is the time that I was probably influenced the most. I asked a lot of questions, and I received a lot of answers. The year was 1969, and what I remember most from that time was the Vietnam war. I watched Huntley/Brinkley in the evening with my Dad. I did not understand why during the day I was being taught to forgive my fellow man, and to live according to the ten commandments. And in the evening I was seeing footage from the war, body counts , crimes against humanity? It made no sense? As I saw all of this suffering ,people dying. I thought to myself, How can God let this happen? I am sorry to say, but my Faith, in "God" , our "Creator" began to fade. I thought "How could this Great Omnipotent Force"-Allow men to destroy each other Why? It was at this time , I questioned our government also-" One Nation, Under God?" I thought who are they kidding? And then in the history books, I read about the "Crusaders" , killing ,and plundering , in the name of God? Preposterous-I thought. It was at this time, that I knew I would have to start figuring things out for myself , time for me to start thinking , making my own decisions! I liked the Commandments though, I would stick with them, seemed like a good way for a civilized person to live. I believed that I still had a relationship with God ,but it was on my terms now. In the following years , I did not have to continue going to church (my parents allowed me to decide at 12 yrs. old -what I wanted to do). I tried to live my life, in accordance of the Ten Commandments , and just like most ,I sinned along the way. I always asked for forgiveness in prayer , always asking God to help me be a better person. And when Life became really difficult ,and unbearable at times-I asked for His help. I have asked him to help others also, when we are living well, isn't the world a better place? He has never let me down. I have cried out " God please Help me" , and I have never had an audible response. But I feel that I have always been pointed in the right direction, by my conscience (my Soul). I believe that He is in our souls. May God Bless You All. Have a Good Evening*:grouphug:


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## RichInPA (Nov 13, 2013)

Holy wall of text batman! Paragraphs!


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## Twp.Tom (Dec 29, 2010)

http://hunterphotographic.photoshel...mer-wedding/G0000XQ5a8Ju1hY4/I00005OQMFzBwiFE


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, I have some questions for those of the various religious beliefs.
> 
> First... what is your belief?


I believe in one God of the universe, that there are many demi-gods (i.e. Jesus for example is one of the demi-gods) and other beings (angels, nature spirits) in communion with God and working on God's behalf, and I practise universal Shamanism as a form of communion and interaction with God. I do not worship God since God doesn't demand to be worshipped nor set any rules to be lived by.



Yvonne's hubby said:


> Two... why do you believe the way you do? How you were taught? by parents? Worldly experience? other... please explain.


Why? :shrug: Because it is the way it is. I'm not trying to be trite, that's just the way it is. One either knows God or one does not, there is no why.

How was I taught? By God I guess. I was born knowing that God exists. Also as I was growing up I asked lots of questions about God and the answers were given to me in a variety of ways - answers or knowledge that came to me out of nowhere from divine spirit, and from other people, nature, other religious practises and believers and their churches, many books, personal worldly experience, a few timely miracles. 



Yvonne's hubby said:


> Three.. Have you ever had an honest to goodness "sitty down on a stump" type talk with the God of your faith... not just a prayer to Him asking for this that or the other, but a real one on one, face to face talk where you asked questions, and received answers to those specific questions right then and there?


Yes. Also, as a shamanic practitioner I've acted as an intermediary for other people who had questions - that is to say asking their questions for them and then relaying to them the answers that I was given for them.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Wow. we are getting some really good responses.... everyone has posted very well written responses with out a single "negative" towards anyone elses beliefs... I really really hope this trend continues. I suppose it is time for me to give some insight to others as to my own beliefs, and how I have come to arrive at them. First... as others have done I will give you some background or "history". I was raised primarily by my father and step mother... who I always refer to as "mom". She was the one who wiped my nose, cared for me, and took care of me most of my childhood. (from age six on up till I left home at 15) My dads parents (granny and grampa) had a lot to do with my care and upbringing up until I was 6. Granny was very religious... at least in appearance and for appearances sake. She attended church regular and seemed to dwell on particular scriptures a lot... "spare the rod and spoil the child" was one she put a lot of stock in. Every morning us three boys would be woke up, lined up and given our daily lickin. According to granny, we would need it at some point through the day, and didnt want to be bothered later in the day so we got our lickins first thing to cover our days "sins". For whatever reason us boys felt compelled to get our moneys worth.... after all we had paid the price, might as well have the fun!  She also drug us to church on sunday mornings and forced us to endure the long windy sermons about fire and brimstone while sitting on those hardwood pews designed several centuries earlier by some unknown sadist while working for the spanish inquisition for the purpose of torture. I learned very early on to never ask granny for advice or council about things of a spiritual nature... like "granny, what are those pretty colors I see around everyone?" Questions like that were sure to get you an extra good licking come next morning! something about satan and the devils work etc etc. 

Mom and dad were not quite as weird when it came to God and religion... us boys were allowed to go to church with most anyone who wanted to put up with us, but it was never forced on us.... although questions about anything out of the ordinary were met with the same basic negative attitude as granny had. 

Grampa? He had little use for preachers or any form of religion. His attitude towards religion was best summed up one evening when I was staying with them... I would have been about 17 at the time. Granny had invited her church friends to the house for a bible study session... They were going over the "verily I say unto thee" scriptures in the new testament. After an hour or so of this, grampa became weary of the whole thing, picked up his hat, motioned for me to come with him and headed for the door. Without breaking stride as he walked across the room he said... and I almost quote... "Verily I say unto thee.... bull stuff" and we exited immediately thereafter. 

Throughout my growing up years I attended various churches for various reasons.... of which none had much to do with religious conviction. My dads aunt was a seventh day adventist... which got me out of working on saturday, on sundays moms brother would take me to their church where there was not only no work on sundays.... there were some mighty cute girls! 

Life went on... I really never gave a lot more thought to spiritual matters or "supernatural" stuff until I was about 19... maybe 20. I had long since stopped wondering what those various colored lights were around people, I just accepted them as part natures way of letting me know who to give a wide berth to, and who was likely to treat me well. Those who have broad bands of silver.... you can pretty much count on them when your down and out... those with the narrow dark blue with little or no silver.... are the ones to be wary of. the broader and brighter color the bands... the "nicer" the person. narrow bands... dark colors..... not so nice. 

anyway, when I was about 19 or 20 I was in a sears and roebucks store in the shoe and boot section. I had the very strangest sensation come over me... something new and different and totally strange. I looked at a pair of boots on the shelf about 20 feet down the aisle from me and with out lifting a finger or moving a muscle... pushed those boots off the shelf and into the middle of the aisle! The feeling went away within less than a minute and I was quite dumbfounded to say the least! It was at this point that I KNEW there was more to our world than meets the eye! I didnt know what.... but "something" was out there. 
Over the course of the next several years I had several other experiences that made me all too aware that our normal daily existence (or at least mine) did not include a fraction of what is yet to be understood by man.... but is still very real. One such experience involved my self awareness expanding well beyond its normal boundarys in my cranium. For want of better explanation I would almost call it an out of body experience, except I didnt really leave my body... I merely expanded my awareness beyond its normal limits. I was "aware" of everything in the vicinity of somewhere around 100 ft in all directions. Not visually seeing.. more like mentally aware... including the critters outdoors, bugs, mice, birds outside, every plant and any other life forms within that range were as "visible" to me as the fireplace in front of me. As the boundary kept expanding larger and larger I became scared.... had no idea what was happening to me... or how to control it! At the point fear overcame me the phenomenon ceased as quickly as it had come. Strange stuff I thought. 

As years passed I had other brief glimpses of things we normally do not see hear or feel in our three dimensional world. 

Sometime in the early 80s I was again given quite a glimpse into the "other" side of our world. This is when I had the sitty down, heart to heart talk with God that brought together all things about God, Jesus, the Holy spirit, and all the other things of spiritual nature I had heard others speaking about over the years. I finally had my answers! The bible suddenly made perfect sense! And so did many other things I had heard that were not part of grannys bible. Or at least not contained in the parts she had read to me! I now understood where that bright silver light around my grandfather went the night it disappeared from around him as he took his last breath on this earth. From that moment on I have been a believer... I had been given the "proof" that so many seek and so many preachers and shaman are clueless about. So many scriptures now make perfect sense that had been so puzzling to me previously. I had only this worlds concepts to compare them to. The best comparison I can make would be that of a mouse living within the confines of a large ship... he understands those things he sees, feels, hears..... but has no clue about things beyond the ship. Mankind is the same way... we are rapidly learning all there is to know about the world, and the physical realities we all see hear and feel everyday.... but most of us really have no idea what lies beyond the boundaries of our very limited existence. I have been shown tiny glimpses of what lays on shore, therefor I believe there is more than just this ship. Seeing is believing!


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I believe in God and Jesus the Son of the living God.


BUT....I am a lost and wandering soul. I have never felt comfortable in a church building. I was raised in the Church of Christ and have never gotten past that. It was drummed (literally) into my head that I was going to hell. Everything was negative, bad, sinful and NO FUN. Church is hard for me because of Dad and certain people in the church I went to as a kid. Dad and I never got along and I left home at 12. I have never felt close to anyone except Grandpa, Grandma, Mom, my first girlfriend, my wife and our 2 kids. Dad had a bad temper and I inherited it. Now, I am a very even tempered person and have few highs and lows. Life is what it is. I can hear my Grandmother in my head, IF and when I get close to doing something I feel is wrong. I don't do anything on impulse. I go back to when I sat at my Grandmothers knee and listened to the stories of her youth. She grew up in Oklahoma, near the reservation of her ancestors, The Chief Joseph Band. God is the creator of this earth and I am part of it. I am confused and conflicted. I have never been able to get past the very dark time when my Grandfather died and the hell of being alone, really alone. I worked to make sure I had enough money to live as I wanted to. All to the detriment of my health. When I was told that I would never work again and may not live through my illness, I found light in my Grandmothers heritage. I guess I feel like the heathen Indian that the white man came to enlighten....James


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## AriesMaverick (Jul 8, 2012)

*What is your belief?*
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. 
And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell. The third day He rose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty. From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Christian church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.

*Why do you believe the way you do? * What with studying the bible and various other philosophies, this rings with Truth.

*How you were taught?* My parents raised me to search the scriptures. Growing up, we attended church and had a music ministry. 
However, it wasn't until I got into my 20s that I began to do some serious searching and fully established a close relationship with God. Kinda like when you're raising a kid, and all they seem to do is be a sponge and ignore everything, and then *poof* they're a mature adult that understands wisdom and they're your best friend. 

*Have you ever had an honest to goodness "sitty down on a stump" type talk with the God of your faith... not just a prayer to Him asking for this that or the other, but a real one on one, face to face talk where you asked questions, and received answers to those specific questions right then and there?* All the time. He's my Father after all . I don't always get immediate and satisfactory answers.


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## sustainabilly (Jun 20, 2012)

This is my belief. I wrote this when I was searching for what I had lost in my life. I used a list of virtues from the bible that spoke to my soul. These things are the heart of fellowship. I believe the serenity prayer at the end should be something everyone should try to emulate. It sure is an almighty trial to follow it, but I keep tryin'.  

CHOICES

I will follow my moral compass 
Toward humility, honesty, and industry. 
With clarity of thought, composure, and 
Accountability, to guide my steps.

Patience, with discretion, will be my 
Watchword.
Ever aware that I have two ears and one mouth
I will balance their use accordingly.
Always embracing fellowship with good humor.

I will strive for the serenity to accept
The things I cannot change 
The courage to change the things I can 
And the wisdom to know the difference.​


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

Thanks for posting about yourself YH. My own DH could move things and communicate with animals via Telepathy. 
In my own family we have a strong psychic touch. Not stuff that you talk about in general conversation. It was taken as natural, that's the way it is. 
I grew up in an area where every town had one church and that church was catholic. It was a happy, good time. Secure, safe, sure of the way things are.
Met some mormons when I was 17. Big surprise, they felt as secure in their belief as I did. Somehow at this point I started looking at the world. I had to start thinking. I guess my soul left the nest. But who or what am I. I was born knowing/believing in God. I figured God knows what is what. At that time I started praying for God to guide me. I wanted with all my heart to walk in his path. well, I fell down and got dirty, had some, well, different, experiences. Once to keep me from despair. Always praying, Lead me Lord, lead me in your righteousness. In this day and age the end of that stanza has new meaning too. 'For it is thou Lord, thou Lord only that maketh me dwell in safety. 

I donot believe God sends anyone to hell to burn forever. To burn up into ashes and cease to exist, not forever. 
Story of the wild geese. It was a terrible storm, the geese were blown way out on the Baltic, then thick fog. They flew yonder and hin, lost, and it was getting dark. then, on the southern tip of an island, a cannon was fired. The leader stretched her neck and was filled with certainty. Now she knew which direction to fly. 
My cannon shot is Lord Yeshua. Praise and thanks.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Yes, I have had sit down talks with God, and God has spoken to me in my heart. He very rarely talks, of course, but He has been known to. 

The thing is, it is a very fine thing when God says "I love you", but it is probably not what you are looking for?


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

tiffnzacsmom said:


> I'm also Asatru and am a former Catholic. I left the church for me as it no longer fit not as any act of rebellion or do to anger with the faith.
> 
> I've had dreams involving the gods but I can't say it was them talking to me. I do know that I have a wonderful community that I never had before and would not have met if I wasn't on this path.
> 
> I would never degrade someone for their path though there are some aspects of many that I do not agree with. Take care of your part of the world to leave it better for our descendents.


I also started Life as a Roman Catholic. In fact in my high school years I attended a Seminary, with the idea of entering the Catholic priest- hood.
But, in my 17th summer, I discovered girls. And so, I dropped out of that
religious pursuit of the priesthood. I remained a Catholic, though, until I was about 40 years old. Then I really began searching for a Faith that I related to, on a deeper level. I drifted through various Pagan Groups. And, they filled a void in my Life, for a time.

After about 6 or 8 years of studying and practicing Paganism and Wicca,
I was drawn by the Northern Gods away from Wicca, and whole heartedly into Asatru, a Pagan Religion of our Germanic Ancestors. I studied hard and worked at it. Within a few years I began leading a small Asatru Kindred a group of Worshippers. I also became a Member of both the Major Asatru Organizations in the USA and became recognized as Clergy in both. We have a need for Clergy, just like any other active religion.

And for the last several years I have been practicing Asatru. And for most of that time, I have led a small group of Asatruar, IOW, a Kindred, in our Chosen Faith. 

Yes, I have met several of Our Gods, Odin, Thor Frey and Tyr and a few of our Goddess, Frigga and Freyja too, on a very personal level. And I've had talks with Them. That's what some folks call "UPG" or "Unusual Personal Gnosis".
It has occurred for me, while sitting out by our stone Altar on the Hill, in the woods, meditating. And a time or 2 sitting out on the bench, by our pond.
I Believe with all of my Being in Asatru. I am 73 years old. I know that after my death, I will reside with my Ancestors in a place of Resting called Gladheim. And I can't say I have much fear of Death at this time.


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## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

Old John said:


> I also started Life as a Roman Catholic. In fact in my high school years I attended a Seminary, with the idea of entering the Catholic priest- hood.
> But, in my 17th summer, I discovered girls. And so, I dropped out of that
> religious pursuit of the priesthood. I remained a Catholic, though, until I was about 40 years old. Then I really began searching for a Faith that I related to, on a deeper level. I drifted through various Pagan Groups. And, they filled a void in my Life, for a time.
> 
> ...


 Did you fear death while you were a practicing catholic?


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Oh, YH, has discussion and question period begun yet, I have some questions to ask too.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

In my very early childhood my parents took me to church with them. Then they stopped going and played in a country and western band in some local bars. Even when they were going though, I had already stopped believing. I had seen too much hypocrisy in the church as well as my home. Many years later I lost my first two kids in a house fire. There was a woman, I had never met before, that lived close by. She saw me outside of the burning house, in the end of December, barefooted and in shorts. She took the shoes off her own feet and the coat off her back and placed them on me. Then she took me to the hospital, where I was admitted. After she made sure my physical needs were being met she told me about the love of Jesus. I ignored her and eventually became quite rude to her. In the next couple of years I buried 2 more kids. Right after the funeral of my fourth child I called an Air Force recruiter and within a week I was in basic training. I was running, from what, I'm not sure, myself? Maybe, or the pain. But I learned I couldn't run from myself or my pain, they followed me wherever I went. Something else I couldn't run from were the words this woman had spoken to me and the kindness she had shown me. I continued to run for a few more years and I think I just got tired of running. I got tired of always hurting. I hated myself and my life. Yet those words were still there, so one day I sat down and spoke to the Lord. Basically I said to him that if he was real then make me a believer. Prove to me you are who they say you are. That was a turning point in my life. I had had nightmares every night since my first two kids died. I'd wake up screaming because I relived the fire over and over. After I prayed I had the first peaceful night since the fire. I made a promise to God that I would serve him the rest of my life now. I also asked the Lord to allow me to meet with the lady from the fire so I could share with her what an impact her words and actions had in my life, even though it took 8 years. I finally had that chance about 17 years ago. I visited a church in a small town in Alabama, and there in the middle row sat this little ole lady. I wasn't sure she would recognize me, but when I went up to her she gave me the biggest hug I have ever recieved and told me she knew that the Lord would be speaking to my heart and bring me home to Him. She was right. A couple of years after that, this dear lady went home to be with the Lord. I was so thankful for the opportunity to tell her what showing the love of Christ had done for me.


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## Old John (May 27, 2004)

wwubben said:


> Did you fear death while you were a practicing catholic?


No, I really did not fear Death because of any Fear of Hell. _ I have always, even when I was a youngster_ known the difference between "Right and Wrong".
And although I have on occasion strayed from the Path of Righteousness, in some minor infractions.
It was never in any Major way. And I always Believed in God's Forgiveness and Love. And I think I learned that in Catholicism.

And now, in Asatru, I still always try to do what is "Right and Just. And for the Good of All. You see...I'm not a real Selfish person.

In Asatru we have Tyr, the God of Justice & Law. And In Asatru we have the 3 Tyrian Laws, concerning any Action:

1. Is It Right Action?
2. Is it Just Action?
3.Is it for the Good or Welfare of All?
So, I don't Fear a Judgment of The Gods, Because I know How to Live Justly and I always Try to Do it.
See, It's All on Me. And I know it.

But I don't preach to Anyone. They Have their own Path to Seek, and to Follow.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

I am a nihilist. I have never questioned the existence of god but I regularly question and ponder what that means and if it matters. I find standing upon the precipice and gazing into the abyss to be a freeing experience. It all ends in heat death so what's the point?

The point is today and the point is how you want to look back on your life. I go to church and take my children I believe I have had connection to a higher power or entity at times. I am a baptized 'Mormon' because I like their idea of an afterlife and a new beginning in which I could be god of my own reality. That sounds better than the usual pearly gates and kneeling before a jealous god praising his glory for eternity. 

I believe it is better to use the brain god gave you (or evolution gifted you with) and be a good person than to be on the straight and narrow out of fear of punishment or promise of reward. And I believe you cannot be a good person if you deny your capabilities--- to stand in judgement of even the most foul and heinous act you can imagine one needs to be able to wonder and follow a line of thought that includes how they might come to a similar act. 

I dislike zealots be they Christian, Muslim or Atheist... they are all just looking for a way to beat back the dark and sleep at night. I find it easier to sleep by embracing what lurks in the dark corners of my mind than by trying to deny them.

I think if I were really honest and felt I could truly pursue a 'faith' I would be Aghori. Everything is profound and holy, not just the pretty things.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Paumon said:


> Oh, YH, has discussion and question period begun yet, I have some questions to ask too.


By all means! anytime is a good time to discuss and ask questions.


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## SeanInVa (Oct 3, 2013)

*what is your belief?*
Currently, I consider myself agnostic. I can very easily say "there is no god" in times of stress, but at my core, I simply don't know.

*why do you believe the way you do?*
I tend to be quite analytical, so I tend to approach many things from a "what does the evidence show" perspective (not always, but mostly). I can find no evidence for a God (one or many). I have asked him many, many times to show himself, somehow. I don't feel like I have ever been answered. In my mind, religion tends to be the product of mortal men attempting to explain things they don't understand (including death).

I also see how much pain and suffering religion (or men acting in the name of religion) has caused over history, and this makes me wary as well.

*How you were taught? by parents? Worldly experience? *
I was raised in Southern Baptist churches. I gave my life to christ when I was in 4th grade (so.. 9 years old or so?) and shortly after, our townhouse was burgled. This immediately planted the seeds of doubt in my mind - "why does God let these things happen to Christians?" but I kept trying. We did the nightly devotional reading which included reading the Bible every night and discussing, as a family, what it meant to us. I went to church pretty much every Sunday. Being someone who has never, ever "fit in" with any social group - and being bullied in school a lot, I think I may have just been looking to be accepted by anyone at that point.

Around the age of 16 or 17 I think is when I really started to drift away. I started becoming more and more interested in "alternative history" (think, Graham Hancock,Erik von Daniken and Zecharia Sitchin). I also started exploring history around Jesus and that time period. The dead sea scrolls, "lost" gospels, etc. Even though I really had no faith anymore, I was still very interested in the historical side of it. Maybe I was simply looking for my "evidence". The more and more I researched, the more and more the Bible seemed like the work of mere men, and not the direct word of God. There are many contradictions and "stories" that seem to be duplicated or taken from older, non-Judeo sources. Why do some Christians point to the old testament to show how one thing (say, homosexuality) is a sin, but then turn right around and go to a crab pickin' and gorge themselves (as much as you can on crab) on shellfish (which is also outlawed in the very same book)? It is these kinds of things that really swayed me.

As I started to identify more and more as atheistic or agnostic, I started to notice more and more how "Christians" (others may do the same, I interact mostly with Christians vice Muslims or other religions) treated people like me. No matter how good I try to live my life, there are people who will shun me, curse me, and even threaten me (it's true) simply for not believing in God. The hypocritical nature of some of these people casts the rest in a negative light, and tends to further my resolve in my belief that there is probably no god (or at least, the one I have been taught about my whole life).

*Have you ever had an honest to goodness "sitty down on a stump" type talk with the God of your faith... not just a prayer to Him asking for this that or the other, but a real one on one, face to face talk where you asked questions, and received answers to those specific questions right then and there? *
I have tried multiple times. It usually ends with crickets for me. One may say my mind is closed. Maybe it is now. at one time it was as open as it ever will be, and not once did I feel like God ever cared to answer.

All that said, I still "talk to God". Cause you know, like I said, I don't *know* if there is or is not a god or gods. I curse "god" out when I feel like "he" is being unfair - like when my stepfather passed away in 2012 at the age of 57, and likewise I tend to say "thanks" at times, even though my brain is asking me "what the heck are you doing talking to someone who is not there?" 

In my heart, I don't feel like I can believe in god/gods. I can say I do, but in my heart, I just don't feel it. And there is no sense in not being true to myself just to make other religious people happy.

I guess in the end, if I had to pick *something* - I would say I believe in nature. I can see nature. I can interact with nature. If I treat nature right it will (mostly) treat me right in kind.


*** Please note - I am offering my experience and my thoughts, I am in no way trying to project my thoughts on anyone here ***


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

SeanInVa said:


> *** Please note - I am offering my experience and my thoughts, I am in no way trying to project my thoughts on anyone here ***


This is exactly what I am looking for.... everyones individual thoughts and experiences without the condemnation of anyone elses. So far everyone that has responded has managed to do just exactly this. I am very proud of each and every one of you! As I read the various posts I am learning, comparing yalls experiences with my own. I am truly hoping that we can all learn from each other and this continues to be a very positive thread.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

1. 
I'm not of any particular religion.

Spiritual would be the best term for my belief system.

2.
I do believe in a Higher power.

I have also have looked into many religions, with a open mind and heart.

My belief is there is no one true religion, that each holds a facet of that one true Faith.

I have adopted from many, those things that hold true to me.

You have to look, not just among them but with in your ownself.

The answers are there. 

But in the same sense its on a personel level.

3.
Yes and No.

Take into account my answer to the second question.

"you have to look" 

Its kind of complicated but yet simplistic...

We are all connected the whole of creation, surrounded by spiritual energy and presence, all endowed with gifts and inherent knowledge from the creator.
All created with a purpose and a plan,if your open and aware, you can see it. you know it. not sure how else to convey it.

"God" presents "himself" in many different forms and many different ways. 
You though have to make the connections.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Okay YH, what I wanted to ask you about was in regard to the following statements:



Yvonne's hubby said:


> Life went on... I really never gave a lot more thought to spiritual matters or "supernatural" stuff until I was about 19... maybe 20. I had long since stopped wondering what those various colored lights were around people, I just accepted them as part natures way of letting me know who to give a wide berth to, and who was likely to treat me well. Those who have broad bands of silver.... you can pretty much count on them when your down and out... those with the narrow dark blue with little or no silver.... are the ones to be wary of. the broader and brighter color the bands... the "nicer" the person. narrow bands... dark colors..... not so nice.


The questions are - did you ever at any time do any research about the colours you saw? Did you not know at the time when you were younger that there was a vast array (literally hundreds of years worth) of respected literary information and explanations available about colored auras and about the silver 'etheric' aura? Or did you know the information was available but it wasn't important enough to you to learn more about it? When you got older and had your epiphany, did you follow through and do any research to learn more about the purpose of your gift so that you could use it? If not, I'm curious to know why not. That is, if you don't mind explaining.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Paumon said:


> Okay YH, what I wanted to ask you about was in regard to the following statements:
> 
> 
> 
> The questions are - did you ever at any time do any research about the colours you saw? Did you not know at the time when you were younger that there was a vast array (literally hundreds of years worth) of respected literary information and explanations available about colored auras and about the silver 'etheric' aura? Or did you know the information was available but it wasn't important enough to you to learn more about it? When you got older and had your epiphany, did you follow through and do any research to learn more about the purpose of your gift so that you could use it? If not, I'm curious to know why not. That is, if you don't mind explaining.


I had no clue as to what those pretty lights were when I was young.... and somehow granny didnt seem to think it was important for me to know anything about them... other than it was "the work of the devil". I learned only what I observed over the years after watching them, and the folks behaviors. I have never really be curious enough about most things to spend much time in intense study. I was always pretty much keeping my mind occupied with things like where is the next meal coming from and how am I going to get a roof over these kids heads. Its only been in my later years that I have given much thought to these matters at all... other than that one sitty down discussion with God.... that one left quite an impression on me. I have since read some rather interesting articles by others who have shared similar experiences.... at least I think they were similar... our written language leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to discussing such matters. For example, I know of no word that adequately can describe the "energy" involved... it felt warm... it was sorta like light... it was very pleasant... it tasted wonderful, sounded even better and yet Light is the closest word I know to describe that particular form of energy that surrounded me.  "Time" as we know it is not a part of that dimension... as the good book says a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day.... my best shot to describe it? It all just IS


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## homstdr74 (Jul 4, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, I have some questions for those of the various religious beliefs.
> First... what is your belief?


The religion I adhere to is Roman Catholic. 



> Two... why do you believe the way you do? How you were taught? by parents? Worldly experience? other... please explain.


One of the things Catholicism helps me to do is to face the challenge posed by the present reversion to the Paganism of ancient times. The challenges faced today may not be as daunting as the ones faced back then, but they have the potential to turn into such a disaster.

I was reared Catholic, &#8220;fell away&#8221; from the Church in my teens (of course) and twenties, came back to the Church when I realized I was wasting my time armed only with existential knowledge and no tradition passed on by the elders. I also studied all of the other major religions, but decided they were not for me. So that&#8217;s my story and I&#8217;m sticking to it. 



> Three.. Have you ever had an honest to goodness "sitty down on a stump" type talk with the God of your faith... not just a prayer to Him asking for this that or the other, but a real one on one, face to face talk where you asked questions, and received answers to those specific questions right then and there?
> 
> I would love to hear about anyones experiences and compare notes.


 
I have never prayed a &#8220;Prayer of Petition&#8221; for money or things. I often pray for my family, near and extended, and for those who need prayers. 

Most of my prayers are prayers of gratitude for my life and for the wonderful world we live in, but most specifically the situation into which I was born. I don&#8217;t know how other Americans see themselves, whether they see themselves as fortunate or unfortunate, but I have been to almost four dozen other countries in this world and have seen the difference; and it is an amazing difference. Why was I not born into a family living in a mud hut in Central Africa, or a Nipa Hut in the Phillipines? I am able to own acreage, build on that acreage, raise food for my family, and yet travel anywhere I want. I can criticize elected officials, some of whom I know as friends, and I am free to do just about anything that is lawful, or, as they say around here, &#8220;anything you&#8217;re big enough to do&#8221;. 

I have had many insightful moments with the Higher Power. I ask few to no questions mostly, because what is, is, and there ain&#8217;t no two ways about it. Most of the questions I might ask I can better answer myself by looking into the mirror and having a discussion with that guy right there. But I definitely know the times He pulled me out of a deathtrap, and they number more than one. I give thanks for that, among many other things. How do I know I had help from God? Usually it&#8217;s His angels (BTW the ones I&#8217;ve met don&#8217;t have wings but look m/l like all the rest of us) who help out. I just know that there ain&#8217;t no way that particular situation could have played out w/o some spiritual help. 

There is a sense, a higher sense, that is impossible to describe but was best written in scripture by St. Paul&#8212;"*For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.&#8221;* KJV---1 Corinthians 13:12


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## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

I was raised without religion. My father was raised Catholic, but did not practice, and we were taken to church on occasion just so we were exposed to it and knew what it was all about. But we didn't pray at home.

We were very much taught the difference between right and wrong. It seems like we all have a built-in sensor of what is right and we act accordingly. Both my parents did and explained the right and wrong things to us.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Dutchie said:


> I was raised without religion. My father was raised Catholic, but did not practice, and we were taken to church on occasion just so we were exposed to it and knew what it was all about. But we didn't pray at home.
> 
> We were very much taught the difference between right and wrong. It seems like we all have a built-in sensor of what is right and we act accordingly. Both my parents did and explained the right and wrong things to us.


I have often wondered about that built-in sensor thing. I have heard it comes with the deal but experience tells me its a learned thing... handed down by our parents. I know my daddy didnt rely on us kids ability to determine right from wrong... he taught us via the toe of his boot.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I had no clue as to what those pretty lights were when I was young.... and somehow granny didnt seem to think it was important for me to know anything about them... other than it was "the work of the devil". I learned only what I observed over the years after watching them, and the folks behaviors. I have never really be curious enough about most things to spend much time in intense study. I was always pretty much keeping my mind occupied with things like where is the next meal coming from and how am I going to get a roof over these kids heads. Its only been in my later years that I have given much thought to these matters at all... other than that one sitty down discussion with God.... that one left quite an impression on me. I have since read some rather interesting articles by others who have shared similar experiences.... at least I think they were similar... our written language leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to discussing such matters. *For example, I know of no word that adequately can describe the "energy" involved... it felt warm... it was sorta like light... it was very pleasant... it tasted wonderful, sounded even better and yet Light is the closest word I know to describe that particular form of energy that surrounded me.  "Time" as we know it is not a part of that dimension... as the good book says a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day.... my best shot to describe it? It all just IS*


Thanks. I'm familiar with that consciousness that you've described. That heightened awareness of All That Is is what we call the Shamanic State of Consciousness. There are several methods used in various cultures to achieve that transcended state at will, most often through stimulation of the senses and using sounds to alter the brain waves into the receptive Theta Wave state. Thus one achieves communion and oneness with All That Is, otherwise known as God Consciousness.


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## GrammaBarb (Dec 27, 2012)

Hi Folks,

I was raised nominally Catholic, and in moments of levity describe myself as a "recovering Catholic". I confess that I have no clear vision of a deity or a heaven or whatever. I do believe that what we call God is the entire Universe, and that there is no such entity as a "personal" savior, however---

Having said that, I'd like to relate an experience. I had a heart attack while scuba diving, and nearly died. A few years later, after demonstrating a form for a Karate class, my heart stopped, and I had no heartbeat for nearly four minutes. I was revived by medics and the defib paddles, and since then (1990) I have had implanted defibrillators. (again) However.....

During that four minutes, I saw the tunnel, the white, warm welcome of a foggy feeling of things being "right", and I really wanted to go in. I didn't do it, because I remember thinking clearly, "I can't go yet, I have a son who needs me", and I turned around.

But I didn't *want* to turn around, and I do believe that since that experience I can more easily accept the fact that there is *something* after---or "out there" or whatever. Do I know what it is? No, I haven't a clue. But having gotten a little peek in the door, so to speak, I am comfortable. 

It has been interesting reading all of the preceding stories. Thanks for sharing.

Barb


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

Wow GramBarb, I really don't know what to say.

there are theories that explain what you saw and yet without experiencing it myself, which I don't have the guts to do, all I can say is wow, I believe you and I don't honestly know what that means.... But I'm hopeful.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

GrammaBarb said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I was raised nominally Catholic, and in moments of levity describe myself as a "recovering Catholic". I confess that I have no clear vision of a deity or a heaven or whatever. I do believe that what we call God is the entire Universe, and that there is no such entity as a "personal" savior, however---
> 
> ...


Your experience sounds incredibly similar to mine... although I did proceed to the end of the tunnel and entered the meadow. I too wanted to stay there, but had kids that were depending on me so I turned around and came back to the harsh reality on "this side". That brief glimpse however really turned my life around. I no longer have any fear of what awaits, my priorities have completely changed as to what is and is not important in life.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

I have been pronounced dead twice. Both times I saw Grandma. The first time I was 7 and in an iron lung. I was not scared, Grandma was there. She was not really there, she was at home 100 miles away. I remember bright, foggy, distance, but my focus both times was what was between us, nothing.... but something. I was hesitant to step over, I started to but realized I was still laying down. I have had dreams about Grandma since, talking to her, reaching out and stepping over to see her....and falling. Never scary, just jolted, aware but not waking up. I was not there when Grandma died, or the funeral. I did not say goodbye. Nearest I can tell, she passed while I was in surgery or waking up from surgery. I was very sick, hours of sick. She talked to me, at least I heard her, I saw her, she was there reaching out. Another thing is that anyone else that I have known and passed over, is gone, never seen again. Grandma isn't, she is still with me. Here and there. I talk to her, always at night, she tucks me in, sometimes. If I am really tired and go lay down in bed and drift, right before I am out she comes to me. I know she is there and know she was there the next morning. I remember the conversation but I never remember what I said. Sweetie will ask, who were you talking to last night. Grandma. I have asked her to listen and tell me what I say. Sweetie says that she can not understand a word of it.?????


....James


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Paumon said:


> Thanks. I'm familiar with that consciousness that you've described. That heightened awareness of All That Is is what we call the Shamanic State of Consciousness. There are several methods used in various cultures to achieve that transcended state at will, most often through stimulation of the senses and using sounds to alter the brain waves into the receptive Theta Wave state. Thus one achieves communion and oneness with All That Is, otherwise known as God Consciousness.


Are you also familiar with the state of consciousness that allowed me to move objects just by thinking about doing it? That has happened to me a couple of times over the years. Both times it lasted for a very brief time, (less than a minute) I have often wondered if there might be a way to "get there" on my own, when I wanted to.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Are you also familiar with the state of consciousness that allowed me to move objects just by thinking about doing it? That has happened to me a couple of times over the years. Both times it lasted for a very brief time, (less than a minute) I have often wondered if there might be a way to "get there" on my own, when I wanted to.


Oh yeah! :grin: Look out! . . . . eep:

Yes, I'm very familiar with that. That is psychokinesis, aka telekinesis, or PK or TK for short. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychokinesis 

It's a real phenomenon alright, highly documented and more people possess strong PK abilities than are aware of it. However, the problem with PK is that it's extremely unreliable. It seems to come and go as it pleases together with hormonal changes in the body or with emotional/mental agitation and it's almost impossible to control without decades of practising and working at it. In the uncontrolled state it can be dangerous and destructive, causing a lot of unintentional damage to physical things. 

I'm sure you have heard of poltergeist activity (spontaneous fires, mechanisms breaking for no reason, things flying across rooms, light bulbs bursting, electricity going off and on, loud noises from things rising off the floor then crashing down, things going missing and reappearing in places where there's no possible explainable way it could have gotten there, etc.) - those kinds of disturbing activity is something a lot of people associate with "gremlins" or some kind of ghostly or demonic activity but it is actually a manifestation of uncontrolled PK. It can happen with people of all ages but it most often occurs in environments where there are youngsters between the ages of 4 - 20 and most especially with children going through the phases of puberty and experiencing hormonally triggered emotional excitement or agitation.

Anyway, if you want to learn more about your psychokinesis and learn how to control it there ARE techniques for refining it and working it to your will in small, non-destructive ways. However there is probably not much you can do with it that will truly bring great benefit into your life or the lives of others if you are not using your PK in conjunction with other vibrational healing modalities. For example if you can see and read auras you could use that gift together with your PK to do some powerful vibrational healing on other people - i.e. laying on of hands or crystals, reiki, touch for health, etc. - but first you would need to learn more about the electromagnetic energy fields of bodies, and about auras and the chakras (energy centers) that generate the aura colors, and you would need to learn how to refine and channel your PK.

It's not hard to do, it just takes time and dedication to learn about it and to have sincere belief in yourself and the gifts you have.


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## krochetnkat (Dec 19, 2013)

*My answers in bold*

First... what is your belief?
*The closest thing that would define me is Pantheist. However, to Christians I am Atheist. I do not believe in God, however believe we are all connected. If someone asks I generally describe myself as a mystic or spiritual to save time.*
Two... why do you believe the way you do? How you were taught? by parents? Worldly experience? other... please explain. *Worldly experience. My family is Southern Baptist, that is how they attempted to raise me, however I have just always believed the way I do. Matter of fact, they kicked me out of the church very young because I asked too many questions and if I saw a contradiction, I would ask about it. My family, other than my current husband (who is pagan) are all still Baptist.*

Three.. Have you ever had an honest to goodness "sitty down on a stump" type talk with the God of your faith... not just a prayer to Him asking for this that or the other, but a real one on one, face to face talk where you asked questions, and received answers to those specific questions right then and there? *For me there is no one to talk to, however, if I am upset/angry it's not uncommon to see me step outside and breathe and let my emotions clear. LOL It's a complicated belief set to explain without, as my husband says, sounding like a stoned hippy. However, the universe has been good to me and never led me down the wrong path. Every tear I have shed has been for a good reason, and every heart ache had a happy ending. My friends say there's an odd sense of peace about me... that is pantheism LOL*


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

I don't know what "label" I could use to describe myself. I was raised in a very strict Christian sect and when I was 17 the priests made me move out of our home and live on my own to "find myself". I spent three very dark years submersed in drugs and alcohol and nearly didn't make it. After three years my Parents told the priests they were no longer attending the church and asked me to move back home. Over the years I came to realize how hard that decision was for them and I believe they struggled with their spiritual path for the rest of their lives. 

Ironically, during those three years I lived on my own, there were four guys my age who, along with their families, cared for and supported me like family and it shocked me that these people, who I was taught were going to Hell because they weren't part of our church and therefore not saved, could be acting more Christian-like than the, er... Christians?

My main issue with organized religion is that the teachings of the church usually gets twisted by some in the church to hurt and control others. We have family we haven't seen in 30 years, one sister, nieces, nephews, uncles, aunts, cousins, childhood friends. The members of our family who left the religion are unclean or evil to heavily simplify it and those in the church will have nothing to do with us. My Dad died last January not knowing he was a great grandfather.

My feelings against organized religion are strong enough that I won't go into it here out of respect for those who follow that path but I do respect simple Christians who don't judge and who give of themselves to those who are less fortunate. I love the southern black churches (sorry if not politically correct) where they are singing and dancing in the aisles. There seems to be a real happiness and joy there compared to the sombre services I'm more familiar with. There are good and bad people in every group, religious or otherwise, and unfortunately my family and I seem to have dealt mostly with the bad. 

Anyway, when it comes down to it, I don't doubt anyone's spiritual path. If someone says they saw a light while temporarily dead, they can move objects using their mind, they talk to God or they see an aura around people, I don't doubt what they say for a second. Who am I to say they can't? There are many things I can't explain and I accept that.

I find great comfort in the earth based religions, Paganism, Wicca, etc. although I don't believe in their Gods. I believe in the seasonal cycles, the circle of life, of treating people the way we want to be treated and leaving the Earth better than when we found it.


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

> Ok, I have some questions for those of the various religious beliefs.
> 
> First... what is your belief?


I'm a Christian.


> Two... why do you believe the way you do? How you were taught? by parents? Worldly experience? other... please explain.


My parents were not religious though they did christen us and take us to the Episcopal church when I was young. We went infrequently then stopped attending altogether and later joined the Religious Society of Friends (aka Quakers) because we attended a Friends School where my mother was also a teacher. I knew very little about the Bible and had never read it.

I first took LSD when I was 14 and was experimenting with drugs as a teen. I became interested in spiritual things later on and was given New Age books to read by a friend. There were often references to the Bible. Once I asked my husband who Job was? I pronounced it to rhyme with "Bob". My husband corrected my mis-pronunciation and said, "You know, Susan, you should read the Bible sometime!" His words stuck with me. I looked for my Bible at my parents home that the Quakers had given me years before. It had my name stamped on the front cover, but couldn't find it anywhere. I forgot all about it. Then, out of the blue, my Father in Law gave me a gift of a Bible! I knew God had something to do with him giving it to me, so I began to read it. 

I started reading it from Genesis all the way to Revelation. I hid it whenever my unbelieving friends came over yet I knew it was the truth as I read it. Through His word, God spoke to me, convicting me of my sins and showing me the way to come to Him through His Son Jesus Christ. God's Holy Spirit was working in me, opening my eyes to the truth. I realized that God was Holy and I was not! That I was a guilty sinner, separated from the One True God. I found out that Jesus is the God-Man, God in the flesh, who lived as the sinless and perfect man, and obeyed His Father perfectly, and who was the only one who is holy enough to pay the price to ransom sinners. I was shocked to read in the gospels that after Jesus was crucified and died on the cross that He was raised to life bodily! I had never understood about the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. Such an ignorant person I was! I trusted in Him and Jesus took away my sins and gave me His righteousness and made me a child of God forever. No one can take me out of His hand!


> Colossians 1:21-23
> 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sightâ 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.





> Three.. Have you ever had an honest to goodness "sitty down on a stump" type talk with the God of your faith... not just a prayer to Him asking for this that or the other, but a real one on one, face to face talk where you asked questions, and received answers to those specific questions right then and there?


I believe the Scripture is complete and that there are no more prophets in our day like in the NT and OT times. God's word says not to add to or take away from the Word of God. I do believe God still communicates in personal ways with His children. When I was sick with a serious immune disease years ago during the time of the most intense pain, I felt God's nearness to me but did not hear anything audibly. I knew that He was telling me "I will be with you" and I was greatly reassured. I was bedridden for awhile but the Lord graciously healed me and I went into remission. At that time I did not know if I'd be crippled for the rest of my life. There have been many times when a certain verse in the Bible has spoken to me in a personal way or God has used a friend's words or a quote from a book to give me comfort and assurance.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I was raised by freethinking agnostics who were big on reason. In my young adult life, I flirted with religion in several guises, but it never seemed very 'real' to me. In the end, I returned to the ways of my youth, and became a freethinking agnostic.

I guess it's true what they say -- "Teach a child in the way that he is to go, and when he is old, he won't depart from it." :hysterical:


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## OzarkFarming (Dec 26, 2013)

We'll I am Christian but que. the bible at times. Yes I have had sit downs in my head with god. I don't agree with all the things the bible says either. I want to believe that all my loved ones that passed are ok and in a good place. So what does that make me, not sure.


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## Buckhuntr (Oct 4, 2012)

I was raised up in the Primitive Baptist church where, as I understood it, one's ultimate destination was predestined. As such, one could be baptised into the Church, but there was no "saving" of one's soul in the process - you either were or you weren't. Later I fell into my first wife's evangelical sect (her cousin was the pastor at the time), in which the church leaders actually took great pride in their lack of religious education. :facepalm:
The blatant hypocrisy and lack of tolerance I witnessed while attending that church, plus my own scientific leanings, observations, and free-thinking ways, pushed me into Agnosticism. Listening to a lay preacher misread a word in the KJV as a different word, with a wholly different meaning than the correct word, then proceed to ad lib an hour-long sermon on the misread word to a constant chorus of AMENs, well, one becomes just a wee bit cynical about the whole thing. 

Funny thing is, in all my early life, and on to the present, I have always felt more spiritual when surrounded by Nature than inside any building or with any other people. 

In any case, every People to have lived on this earth believed in Gods and Goddesses (by whatever name) because that gave them comfort and hope and a way to explain the (to them) unexplainable. Is there really a God? Or multiple Gods? Beats me. At this stage in my life, I consider it irrelevant to my existence. 

Feel free to PM me if you want to really get into a debate on the subject.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Buckhuntr said:


> Feel free to PM me if you want to really get into a debate on the subject.


I am not looking to "debate" anyones religious or spiritual beliefs.... but rather to learn more about them. Discussion is an entirely different thing. So far this thread has provided me with some very good insights as to how others have found whatever paths they have chosen. I also find it amazing that everyone has been able to present their own story without attacking any one else's. This in itself tells me a lot about the fine folks here on HT.


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

For those who are interested in the paranormal, check out this article about the Life of Arthur Pink who at one time was a medium practicing clairvoyance, psychomancy, and magical healing.
http://www.evangelical-times.org/ar...f-Arthur-Pink---Part-2--Appointment-with-God/


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## BlueRose (Mar 7, 2013)

YH: I wish I knew. I have 'religion hopped' alot. I have not found any where to call 'home'. The old adage Do as I say not as I do. Is what I grew up with? Spending 46 years in abuse sort of messes with your brain. Beg God to protect me to save me either I wasn't listening to His answer or there is no one there. But I feel that there has to be, because I am still alive so I must be here for a reason. Don't make since do I. I have read all the post I looked up some 'religions' I did not know about. I am learning


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

VA Susan said:


> For those who are interested in the paranormal, check out this article about the Life of Arthur Pink who at one time was a medium practicing clairvoyance, psychomancy, and magical healing.
> http://www.evangelical-times.org/ar...f-Arthur-Pink---Part-2--Appointment-with-God/


I'd have liked to read it but for some reason that linky no worky for me. Any chance of you giving a quick run down of what it was about?


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## unregistered358967 (Jul 17, 2013)

BlueRose said:


> YH: I wish I knew. I have 'religion hopped' alot. I have not found any where to call 'home'. The old adage Do as I say not as I do. Is what I grew up with? Spending 46 years in abuse sort of messes with your brain. Beg God to protect me to save me either I wasn't listening to His answer or there is no one there. But I feel that there has to be, because I am still alive so I must be here for a reason. Don't make since do I. I have read all the post I looked up some 'religions' I did not know about. I am learning


Are you in a safe place now? Do you need help?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

BlueRose said:


> YH: I wish I knew. I have 'religion hopped' alot. I have not found any where to call 'home'. The old adage Do as I say not as I do. Is what I grew up with? Spending 46 years in abuse sort of messes with your brain. Beg God to protect me to save me either I wasn't listening to His answer or there is no one there. But I feel that there has to be, because I am still alive so I must be here for a reason. Don't make since do I. I have read all the post I looked up some 'religions' I did not know about. I am learning


You make perfect sense to me. It is possible that He answered your prayers, just not with the answer you were seeking. Maybe He listened and He provided you with the strength to endure rather than allowing you simply to escape? I certainly dont have the answers... barely understand some of the questions myself but like yourself I keep learning, and striving to understand all I can. I think most of us are much the same way... especially after reading through the posts in this thread.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

VA Susan said:


> For those who are interested in the paranormal, check out this article about the Life of Arthur Pink who at one time was a medium practicing clairvoyance, psychomancy, and magical healing.
> http://www.evangelical-times.org/ar...f-Arthur-Pink---Part-2--Appointment-with-God/


Interesting read.... thanks for posting it.


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Interesting read.... thanks for posting it.


You're very welcome!


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

Paumon said:


> I'd have liked to read it but for some reason that linky no worky for me. Any chance of you giving a quick run down of what it was about?


Paumon,
Try doing a google search using the three words 'Arthur Pink spiritism' and it should come up. It was the third one down on my comp. It is on the evangelical-times link.


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## BlueRose (Mar 7, 2013)

Yes I am in a safe place now. I had quite the experience a few months ago. It worked out with me not having to deal with some of the people any more. I will be staring a post and showing you all what I am up to now. lol

YH: There is alot to learn isn't there. We everyone hear being nice and no flaming we can learn more. thank you for starting this thread.


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## soulsurvivor (Jul 4, 2004)

I think of time as the freeze frame that allows me to sit on that stump and experience creation as memories. For as long as I can recall there has always been a universal force of love that creates all life. When you feel the love flowing through yourself the belief turns to knowing and there are no questions left to answer, no religion that can offer more, and you accept the gift with gratitude and humbleness forever after.

There is a natural cycle within the nature of universe/earth that allows for specific frequencies and vibrations at least once within a 36 thousand year period. During this time of maybe a thousand earth years this love frequency rules the earth and all life upon it. It's referenced in many antiquities and documents and yet none come right out and say matter of fact that this is what happens. It's left to discovering it either for yourself through a spiritual experience or not. No one will say this is coming soon to earth through you. The controllers always attempt a life wipe prior to this event.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

soulsurvivor said:


> I think of time as the freeze frame that allows me to sit on that stump and experience creation as memories. For as long as I can recall there has always been a universal force of love that creates all life. When you feel the love flowing through yourself the belief turns to knowing and there are no questions left to answer, no religion that can offer more, and you accept the gift with gratitude and humbleness forever after.
> 
> There is a natural cycle within the nature of universe/earth that allows for specific frequencies and vibrations at least once within a 36 thousand year period. During this time of maybe a thousand earth years this love frequency rules the earth and all life upon it. It's referenced in many antiquities and documents and yet none come right out and say matter of fact that this is what happens. It's left to discovering it either for yourself through a spiritual experience or not. No one will say this is coming soon to earth through you. The controllers always attempt a life wipe prior to this event.



Okay, want to hear more about this above. It's just enough information to be highly interesting and bear more investigation.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

YH, in retrospect I realize I said something in my first post that may have been misleading and I want to offer some clarification on that. I had said:



> as a shamanic practitioner I've acted as an intermediary for other people who had questions - that is to say asking their questions for them and then relaying to them the answers that I was given for them.


I did not mean that I ask a question for someone and then give an answer to them from a reply that was given to me directly into my mind and out of my mouth. I know there are people who do that, they are called prophets, oracles or mediums, but that is not my method. My method is through the use of a variety of divinitory tools and then precise interpretation of the answers given through those tools.


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## soulsurvivor (Jul 4, 2004)

CraterCove said:


> Okay, want to hear more about this above. It's just enough information to be highly interesting and bear more investigation.


You want me to prove to you how I know this. I'll explain as I can but understand that this is from my perception. You will have your own perspective and none can claim ownership of that other than you. 

In 1997 I lived in an alternate reality during the months of June, July, and August. I was home recovering from a triple bypass, grateful that I no longer was a candidate for a heart transplant, and thriving in good health. But as good as that reality was it was being enhanced by something else that I could sense and feel coming into me from nature and outdoors. I could say it was spiritual but I prefer to say it was natural. My entire existence was supported by an energy of love and comfort. I could see this energy as it came into my torso. It looked like wavy lines at a 45 degree angle. It had the mirage effect and it felt so immensely life affirming as it filled me up and then flowed from me. This happened in early June and only once but the effect remained with me through the next months. 

I'd like to stop here because it all becomes even more unbelievable from this point forward. My example doesn't have to be another's experience. I don't want to do or say anything that could mess it up for anyone. I wasn't on drugs or drink. Let's just say that I know this was a natural event. It happens for humans on earth at a set time and cycle. I got an early dose of the fun yet to come. It's a natural event that has been shredded into lies and then threaded throughout systems of control. Those doing the controlling don't want us knowing.

I don't want to sit here and recommend 16 years worth of reading/research on the topic of the return of the Christ consciousness. But that would be a good place to start. He was our walking talking human example for this special time in the cycle of earth and heaven. Focus on the love, the actions, and allow the rest to rest.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

SoulSurvivor, I am open to thinking about any possibility. I don't think these sorts of things are things that can be proven except through personal experience which is difficult if not impossible to fully convey to another person-- a part of being encapsulated and alone.

Was your mind split between the two realities? Could you tell things were amiss? How different were things? Were people different that you knew?


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## soulsurvivor (Jul 4, 2004)

CraterCove said:


> SoulSurvivor, I am open to thinking about any possibility. I don't think these sorts of things are things that can be proven except through personal experience which is difficult if not impossible to fully convey to another person-- a part of being encapsulated and alone.
> 
> Was your mind split between the two realities? Could you tell things were amiss? How different were things? Were people different that you knew?


Oh my goodness, thank you for that understanding and I can tell from your questions that you already know something about this. No, my mind wasn't split between the two realities because the emotional feeling was the reality, if that makes sense. I felt as fully physical as I had prior to the wave entry. Except then it took on an increased feeling of my body being lighter, everything was easier, and total pure joy in being a part of nature. That sounds corny and it was. I kept pinching myself after I found out from those around me that they weren't feeling exactly the same as I was. My husband and son seemed to be happier in my presence than they had previously, but that's my perspective and maybe not theirs entirely. My husband was very happy with the new me though and even now asks me when I'm going to bring that old me back. I had returned to work full time and everyone there seemed to be happier than before in working with me, but again, my perspective and maybe not theirs. You know what, I saw everyone as being happy to be in my world and that would include my church family, friends, family, and even strangers. I had several experiences where complete strangers would come up to me in stores and ask me general questions and then shake my hand. I had the impression they were simply wanting to touch me, or rather touch the energy they felt coming from me. 

It felt natural for me to become more physically active during that time. I walked daily, not just walking, but power walking. I could almost keep up with my jogging friends. I took up line dancing which isn't something I'd ever dream of doing prior to that. I went off of all medication except for two medications one each for heart and blood pressure. My doctors were beside themselves with the improvement of my physical condition. They all said at some point during that time frame that it was a miracle how improved I was. I went from a less than 18% heart function to an almost 60% function, unheard of according to the docs. But it wasn't just the physical that was supporting me. It was the emotional love that was going through me like new blood and that's what it felt like, new blood of love. 

I had an experience during that time where I could see, feel, and hear the music that each and every life in nature makes naturally. It was again seen through my eyes to be that wavy mirage and it was coming from every tree, flower, blade of grass, insect, and animal around me at that moment that stood still. Even now the memory of that music is soul deep and meaningful. I'll never forget it even if I never get to experience it again. 

I seemed to have an ease of reading people's needs, not necessarily their exact thoughts as it was clear to me that I shouldn't intrude upon another's thoughts, but I could finish your sentences. 

In terms of who is important in this universe I am a nothing nobody of concern for anyone. I don't want control over any and I'm not here to challenge long held beliefs. I'm at the end of my current life pathway and it's going to be a simple step for me to quietly go forward from here. The only message I want to leave is that humans are part of a natural universe that is created by love. Those humans who are on earth when the universal wave of love rolls in are going to have the memory that carries creation forward into the next natural cycle, just as the ultimate creator intended it to be.


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## skeeter (Mar 23, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> First... what is your belief?
> [\QUOTE]
> 
> I am a born again follower of Jesus.
> ...


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## RThomas (Dec 27, 2013)

I'm an atheist and have been for about 18 years.

Growing up my mother was always searching for the religion that was right for her. I was exposed to a lot of different views. I've been to mainline protestant churches, Catholic services, Mormon churches and Kingdom Halls. But I had no question that there WAS a god. 

I didn't become an atheist until after I met my future wife. Her family was/is VERY religious. I began to study, and read the entire bible again. I'm a naturally very skeptical person and I just realized that for me there was no evidence to believe any of it. I just can't accept things on faith alone. That's not a knock on anyone that does believe, so I don't want anyone to take my disbelief as an attack on their faith.

Anyway, that's the short version


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I've spent years wondering why people seek a religion.. I've wondered why people want something to believe in, things they can't see but only read?.. I've wondered why they read books and take it as gospel?,

Why do people dispute science, Why is the government involved? Why do people, churches and governments kill each other over "religion"?

Why can't we all just get along?


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

The short answer is that our brains are designed for it, Simi. Science is a headless god and dangerous if put in the stead of religion. Science is not capable of representing and explaining everything. Most people, especially religious Athiests, those with the zealous desire to 'convert the heathens' don't even understand the scientific process.

Religion or a belief in any kind of God or spirituality is absolutely _not_ a dangerous thing. Religion does not cause wars. Zealotry causes wars and kills people. Extremism causes wars and kills people. I'll remind you that Pol Pot was an atheist, what god did he kill people for?

Humans have a perfectly natural desire to find their place in the larger scheme of things. 

As for the 'why can't we all get along?' Because we are humans, it's in our nature to group up and fight. It's the only way to even begin to control human population since we can shelter ourselves from the natural elements and we can combat disease and other controls of the natural world to balance life. War is the natural state of humans, not this weird notion of 'peace'. Peace is personal and I don't believe it is applicable except as personal and individual in nature.


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

simi-steading said:


> I've spent years wondering why people seek a religion.. I've wondered why people want something to believe in, things they can't see but only read?.. I've wondered why they read books and take it as gospel?,
> 
> Why do people dispute science, Why is the government involved? Why do people, churches and governments kill each other over "religion"?
> 
> Why can't we all just get along?


Some of the greatest scientists have been Christians. Christianity is not anti-science. This is one of my favorite science stories that I found online and print out for our church's AT hiker ministry.



> One day, as Newton sat reading in his study with his mechanism on a large
> table near him, his scientist friend who did not believe in God stepped in.
> Scientist that he was, he recognized at a glance what was before him.
> Stepping up to it, he slowly turned the crank, and with undisguised
> ...


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## unregistered358967 (Jul 17, 2013)

SoulSurvivor, I totally 'get' you. I've always had the feeling there's more to this life here on earth that meets the eyes. Thank you for the affirmation.


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

CraterCove said:


> Religion or a belief in any kind of God or spirituality is absolutely _not_ a dangerous thing. Religion does not cause wars. Zealotry causes wars and kills people. Extremism causes wars and kills people. I'll remind you that Pol Pot was an atheist, what god did he kill people for?


Very true, CraterCove! 

When the Son of God came to earth He went about doing good. He lived a sinless and holy life, yet Israel's religious leaders with the help of Rome crucified their own Messiah! That is how depraved man is! But God can even save "Jerusalem sinners" (Acts 2)!


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

My beliefs are Traditional, Christian, Biblical. That about sums it all up ....

Ohio Rusty ><>


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## suzfromWi (Jun 1, 2002)

I am a spiritual person. Growing up my folks drank on weekends. Mom would go to bed drunk and call for me in the night. My sisters would send me to her. I was the youngest. Mom would talk to me about the Bible and God for hours until she fell asleep. She sent us younger kids to Bible school during the summer months and the only church nearby in the country was Baptist. The Minister was a Bible thumping, hollering, hell and ----ation man. After I grew to a teen there was no more church except when I got married in a Methodist one. I raised my kids to be kind, loving, and fair to all. My life was VERY hard, wont go into that, but I felt deserted by God. Now life is good and I have a running relationship with my God. We talk often and he has proven over and over that he loves us all. We just have to let him in the door of our hearts. Religion for me, is just a man made dictatorship to rule the masses. Too many awful things have been done in the name of religion. Nature and my higher power are what drives my life. Its not complicated, its my soul...


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## Zapthycat (Jan 7, 2014)

I'm a fundamentalist Christian, which is to say that I believe in the fundamentals of what Jesus Christ came to teach: give to the poor, treat people how you would like to be treated, love your neighbor as yourself, give to God what is God's. 

You can call you apostolic as well, in that I adhere to what the Apostles taught (in the Bible). 

As far as the extra-biblical ideas, I don't adhere to those whatsoever. 

I attend a Pentecostal church, but I don't 100% appreciate everything that is taught. I don't think grand cathedrals should be built or cherry-wood pews should exist when there are people in the slums that need food. 

But that's just me.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I am really enjoying reading all of the different responses and the variety of beliefs brought forward. I want to thank everyone for their input and for being so very civil and respectful of others beliefs. I have learned a lot so far and am looking forward to hearing from others as well. :clap:


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

suzfromWi said:


> I am a spiritual person. Growing up my folks drank on weekends. Mom would go to bed drunk and call for me in the night. My sisters would send me to her. I was the youngest. Mom would talk to me about the Bible and God for hours until she fell asleep. She sent us younger kids to Bible school during the summer months and the only church nearby in the country was Baptist. The Minister was a Bible thumping, hollering, hell and ----ation man. After I grew to a teen there was no more church except when I got married in a Methodist one. I raised my kids to be kind, loving, and fair to all. My life was VERY hard, wont go into that, but I felt deserted by God. Now life is good and I have a running relationship with my God. We talk often and he has proven over and over that he loves us all. We just have to let him in the door of our hearts. Religion for me, is just a man made dictatorship to rule the masses. Too many awful things have been done in the name of religion. Nature and my higher power are what drives my life. Its not complicated, its my soul...


Suz,
I was sad to read about the difficult experiences you've had growing up. I'm glad you didn't give up on God. The Bible condemns the abuse of alcohol. I hope that your mother took her own advice and sought the Lord's help and repented of her sins. I doubt that Jesus screamed at people during his sermons as the pastor of your childhood did. He invited the little children to come to him and they adored him. Jesus is the friend of sinners. He willingly received the repentant prostitutes and the tax collectors who knew they needed a Savior, but He used very strong language when dealing with the self righteous Pharisees and false teachers who were mis-representing the truth about God and His Kingdom.


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## Jupiter (Dec 30, 2012)

Zapthycat said:


> I'm a fundamentalist Christian, which is to say that I believe in the fundamentals of what Jesus Christ came to teach: give to the poor, treat people how you would like to be treated, love your neighbor as yourself, give to God what is God's.
> 
> You can call you apostolic as well, in that I adhere to what the Apostles taught (in the Bible).
> 
> ...


I attend a Pentecostal church as well.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

"science is a headless god"--whoa, whoa, whoa. lemme rant a tad...the Mr has been teaching all week about the scientific method. I can't tell you how valuable science has been to me in my intention to Know What Is. Basically, the "scientist" observes some Thing and seeks to know it As It Is, the truth of it, un dictated by the scientist's assumptions or wishes or even previous ideas that have hereto so far been "proven" true(as possible with the mix at the moment)

IE, there is a humility, a separation from ego in pure observation that is valuable in being still and knowing the I AM. or, as one will eventually discover the WE ARE. So "Zen" after all.

Carl Sagan, an atheist and scientist, is for me (a very spiritual person)the person I point to as my most inspiring priest and waysayer to the Everything. 

So "true" science as a headless god? well yeah sure after all, if the head represents ego. Thus, sans ego, there is humility, the "I don't know", the beginning of wisdom. Bring it on!


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

wyld thang said:


> "science is a headless god"--whoa, whoa, whoa. lemme rant a tad...the Mr has been teaching all week about the scientific method. I can't tell you how valuable science has been to me in my intention to Know What Is. Basically, the "scientist" observes some Thing and seeks to know it As It Is, the truth of it, un dictated by the scientist's assumptions or wishes or even previous ideas that have hereto so far been "proven" true(as possible with the mix at the moment)
> 
> IE, there is a humility, a separation from ego in pure observation that is valuable in being still and knowing the I AM. or, as one will eventually discover the WE ARE. So "Zen" after all.
> 
> ...



You do realize you are talking to a nihilist, right? I know what science is--- and I know that if you take it as a replacement for religion then it's dangerous. It has no conscience there is no morality to science. Defined by science you have no free will, you are nothing but reactions and there is nothing wrong at all with eliminating those who drain the communal resources. Science is inhumane when taken as a god and worshiped.

I think you are looking for something to get upset about instead of trying to understand what I said. I said nothing against science, I said most people who use science in place of god know nothing of the scientific process... they are simply the ones crying out 'but science!' all of the time and using it as a tool to oppress people.

I've read Carl Sagan's books... he's a convert the heathen kind of evangelizing atheist, not much different in my mind to any other kind of missionary. I much prefer the Penn Jillette kind of libertarian atheists not the totalitarian state-ist atheists.

Also, there is no such thing as 'pure' observation where the observer does not affect the observed.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

CraterCove said:


> You do realize you are talking to a nihilist, right? I know what science is--- and I know that if you take it as a replacement for religion then it's dangerous. It has no conscience there is no morality to science. Defined by science you have no free will, you are nothing but reactions and there is nothing wrong at all with eliminating those who drain the communal resources. Science is inhumane when taken as a god and worshiped.
> 
> I think you are looking for something to get upset about instead of trying to understand what I said. I said nothing against science, I said most people who use science in place of god know nothing of the scientific process... they are simply the ones crying out 'but science!' all of the time and using it as a tool to oppress people.
> 
> ...


I think you could just interchange the words "science" and "religion" in this entire post and it would make just as much sense. I think religion has been used to oppress countless people over history. It depends on your point of view and experience.

I don't find religion has conscience or morality any more than science does, it can just as coldly cut people off from their lives. Again, I must emphasize that is just MY EXPERIENCE. I've lived through and continue to deal with the wrongful judgement and excommunication of a church.

Science is neither inhumane or judgmental. It is what it is. Action/reaction and cold, hard facts. We're not supposed to take comfort from it or fear it. It provides the framework within which our natural world exists and we must operate within it. It is like the structural steel that holds the building up and allows us and our natural world to create the warmth of life within the building.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

Truckinguy said:


> I think you could just interchange the words "science" and "religion" in this entire post and it would make just as much sense. I think religion has been used to oppress countless people over history. It depends on your point of view and experience.
> 
> I don't find religion has conscience or morality any more than science does, it can just as coldly cut people off from their lives. Again, I must emphasize that is just MY EXPERIENCE. I've lived through and continue to deal with the wrongful judgement and excommunication of a church.
> 
> Science is neither inhumane or judgmental. It is what it is. Action/reaction and cold, hard facts. We're not supposed to take comfort from it or fear it. It provides the framework within which our natural world exists and we must operate within it. It is like the structural steel that holds the building up and allows us and our natural world to create the warmth of life within the building.


I hope you aren't expecting me to disagree with your assessment. It's one I have put forth before. Except, science is inhumane, in human... it does not possess a capacity for mercy. It is incapable of such a thing, where as religion can teach the embracing of mercy. Justice is also a cruel, blind god to build one's life upon, just ask that dude from that musical Le Mis. 

Also, excommunication, at least in the religion I chose (LDS) is never supposed to be a life long sentence. Usually it's supposed to work as a wake up call by showing a person how life outside the circle of the church is like. ~shrug~ I am sorry you are having to deal with what you are but even Jesus denounced religion.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

CraterCove said:


> I hope you aren't expecting me to disagree with your assessment. It's one I have put forth before. Except, science is inhumane, in human... it does not possess a capacity for mercy. It is incapable of such a thing, where as religion can teach the embracing of mercy. Justice is also a cruel, blind god to build one's life upon, just ask that dude from that musical Le Mis.
> 
> Also, excommunication, at least in the religion I chose (LDS) is never supposed to be a life long sentence. Usually it's supposed to work as a wake up call by showing a person how life outside the circle of the church is like. ~shrug~ I am sorry you are having to deal with what you are but even Jesus denounced religion.


No, sorry, I didn't mean to come across as combative. I"m still on a life long quest to find answers to everything and I find debates on this subject quite helpful. I agree that science does not possess the capacity for mercy, how can it? It's not supposed to, it only gives us facts and structure that we use to live our lives. 

I have found that religion only teaches mercy if one agrees with and lets themselves be subjected to the churches doctrine and control. Nature itself can be cruel and merciless but it can also be beautiful, warm and joyous. Nature also does not judge but demands respect and I find comfort in that.

I think that humans can absolutely learn and practice any virtues supposedly taught by religion: mercy, compassion, love, selflessness, charity, etc. without the assistance of any religion. We need to give ourselves more credit and realize we have the capacity for good and not focus on the bad. Christianity starts off by telling everyone they were born in sin and that makes no sense to me. I'm not inherently bad or evil just by virtue of being born. I think the message of Christianity had a lot to do with turning me away from it as much of it just didn't make much sense.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Truckinguy said:


> No, sorry, I didn't mean to come across as combative. I"m still on a life long quest to find answers to everything and I find debates on this subject quite helpful. I agree that science does not possess the capacity for mercy, how can it? It's not supposed to, it only gives us facts and structure that we use to live our lives.
> 
> I have found that religion only teaches mercy if one agrees with and lets themselves be subjected to the churches doctrine and control. Nature itself can be cruel and merciless but it can also be beautiful, warm and joyous. Nature also does not judge but demands respect and I find comfort in that.
> 
> I think that humans can absolutely learn and practice any virtues supposedly taught by religion: mercy, compassion, love, selflessness, charity, etc. without the assistance of any religion. *We need to give ourselves more credit and realize we have the capacity for good and not focus on the bad. *Christianity starts off by telling everyone they were born in sin and that makes no sense to me. I'm not inherently bad or evil just by virtue of being born. I think the message of Christianity had a lot to do with turning me away from it as much of it just didn't make much sense.


I have heard that if there is no God, only physical science, then there can be no good or bad... all things become "IS".


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I have heard that if there is no God, only physical science, then there can be no good or bad... all things become "IS".


I suppose there is good and bad as it relates to us living our lives and being happy. I'm not real preoccupied with finding out whether we're here for a reason or if it's all just by chance. My concern is that we are here and we should live the best lives we can. If there is a God, I really can't believe that he would cast me aside for simply living a good life and treating others well.

Whether we're here by chance or not, we are basically good beings capable of living together in peace. It's always going to be a struggle but that's how we grow and mature. We just have to stop telling ourselves that we're not! :happy2:


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

Pretty much, trucking guy. Well except for the basically good part . We are basically good when we teach ourselves to rise above our selfish, lazy, egocentric base selves.


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

Truckinguy said:


> Science is neither inhumane or judgmental. It is what it is. Action/reaction and cold, hard facts. We're not supposed to take comfort from it or fear it. It provides the framework within which our natural world exists and we must operate within it. It is like the structural steel that holds the building up and allows us and our natural world to create the warmth of life within the building.


tell that to Dr. Ignaz Semmelweiss. 
And to all the poor souls who died due to pharmaceuticals. Multi thousands. And how often has science had to remedy a proven (assumed) fact? 

My opinion is, it all depends on humans, and they can be avaricious, proud, power hungry, conceited,...etc., etc.
Look at religion. The moment there is money and power to be gained from it, there will be those springing to action who want both. My guess is, that those folks are not exactly religious at heart.


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

Man was made in God's image and was originally good in every way, but rebelled against God and has fallen and is separated from God. He is spiritually dead, unable to communicate with God and an enemy of God by nature. Without faith it is impossible to please God. God offers eternal life, forgiveness and peace to all who will come repenting and believing in His crucified and risen Son.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart _is_ deceitful above all _things_, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

That's why we need a "new heart" from God. The Bible says that every person will stand before God one day. If you are saved, you are clothed with Christ's righteousness and your sins are wiped away. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Your own righteousness will not be good enough. 
Words from the hymn _Jesus Lover of My Soul_
Just and holy is thy Name;
I am all unrighteousness;
False and full of sin I am,
Thou art full of truth and grace.
http://www.opc.org/hymn.html?hymn_id=371 You can hear hymn here


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## NickyBlade (May 27, 2008)

First... what is your belief?

I'm a Christian. 

Two... why do you believe the way you do? How you were taught? by parents? Worldly experience? other... please explain. 

I grew up in an Open Bible Church. The church changed pastors and a year later closed it's doors when I was in my early teen years. For 22 years, I never found another church. I absolutely understand the hypocrisy that so many other people have also experienced... however my faith in the Lord remained strong. I read my Bible on my own and prayed on my own.

For the past year, even though I was baptized as a baby, I really wanted to be baptized... but I didn't have a church. The pastor of my parents church agreed to baptize me last month! And then my husband and our two daughters wanted to be baptized also! So, the four of us were baptized together in our home town. 

My husband is in the Army and I have a friend I met while we were in Hawaii who was also sent to NY a week after us! So, she's been a good friend for about 6 years now. Recently, she's also really started studying the Word and just this week her and I attended a Bible Study together and I do believe we've found a church home! 

Three.. Have you ever had an honest to goodness "sitty down on a stump" type talk with the God of your faith... not just a prayer to Him asking for this that or the other, but a real one on one, face to face talk where you asked questions, and received answers to those specific questions right then and there? 

I pray and talk with God all day long. It'd be pretty awkward not to since I believe He is always with me.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

I feel really strongly about infant baptisms--- if a religion advocates them I do my best not to associate with them. I find the idea really, really offensive. The infant can't enter into an agreement that requires free will to make. It's not like circumcision that indicates a parent's adhesion to a pact.


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

CraterCove said:


> I feel really strongly about infant baptisms--- if a religion advocates them I do my best not to associate with them. I find the idea really, really offensive. The infant can't enter into an agreement that requires free will to make. It's not like circumcision that indicates a parent's adhesion to a pact.


Crater Cove, I can understand your feelings. I'm a Reformed Baptist so I also hold to believer's baptism as you do. I was baptized as an infant but was later baptized after becoming a believer. I have worshiped with those who differ on that issue and was a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) which baptizes infants for many years. At that time it was the best church available to us. Even though we didn't agree with that practice, the word of God was preached faithfully there and there were/are many true believers there. We're members of a small local Baptist church now and our pastor is a Reformed Baptist. The Reformed Baptists have much in common with the conservative Presbyterians. The Presbyterians hold to the Westminster Confession of Faith as their standards and the Reformed Baptists hold to the London Baptist Confession which is almost identical to the WCF except on infant Baptism and church government.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Truckinguy said:


> I suppose there is good and bad as it relates to us living our lives and being happy. I'm not real preoccupied with finding out whether we're here for a reason or if it's all just by chance. My concern is that we are here and we should live the best lives we can. If there is a God, I really can't believe that he would cast me aside for simply living a good life and treating others well.
> 
> Whether we're here by chance or not, we are basically good beings capable of living together in peace. It's always going to be a struggle but that's how we grow and mature. We just have to stop telling ourselves that we're not! :happy2:


From what I have seen in my short 62 years on this planet I have to question that whole "we are basically good beings capable of living together in peace" thing. Mankind seems to like to have a ruckus going somewhere. If there is no God, nor purpose, nor reason for our presence here, then that is ok... its not good nor bad it just is how things are. If however God does exist.... our lives obviously have a purpose and good and evil become real.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> From what I have seen in my short 62 years on this planet I have to question that whole "we are basically good beings capable of living together in peace" thing. Mankind seems to like to have a ruckus going somewhere. If there is no God, nor purpose, nor reason for our presence here, then that is ok... its not good nor bad it just is how things are. If however God does exist.... our lives obviously have a purpose and good and evil become real.


Yes, we definitely like our conflicts, don't we? 

I will say that once I threw off the burden of religion I found the peace and freedom I had never known before. No longer did I have people telling me I was worthless and, in fact, so bad that someone died because of it. I no longer had the pressure of trying to live up to some impossible standard of perfection without which I would not have access to some mythical paradise. I could go about my life free to make my own decisions and be responsible for my own consequences of those decisions. My point is that I felt an enormous sense of relief when I decided not to walk those paths anymore.

I know Christians who are kind and generous people and I know Christians who are the biggest crooks you could ever meet. I know Muslims who are also kind and generous people and we all know about Muslim who blow up themselves and others. I know non-religious people who are good and others who can't be trusted. It just seems to me that being religious doesn't make anyone any less likely to be good or bad.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Ok, came to this thread rather late, always thought I didn't have enuf time to read all-I've read most all the way thru. So VERY interesting!

Raised Catholic, but didn't go to catholic school til 4th grade b/c of where we lived.
Consider myself 'spiritual' rather than 'religious'. Know the dif? Spiritual folks are too lazy to go to church!

The handling of the pediphiles mostly is what has kept me away from attending services but I routinely stop at church, go in, kneel down & converse w/my Savior regularly.

So, yes,I believe in God & His Divine Son as my Savior.
I believe the church should've remained as Jesus founded it. Simple is usually better.

Patty


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

Tricky Grama said:


> Ok, came to this thread rather late, always thought I didn't have enuf time to read all-I've read most all the way thru. So VERY interesting!
> 
> Raised Catholic, but didn't go to catholic school til 4th grade b/c of where we lived.
> Consider myself 'spiritual' rather than 'religious'. Know the dif? Spiritual folks are too lazy to go to church!
> ...


Those men are wolves, not shepherds! It was wise of you to stay away from them. There are still faithful Shepherds out there who actually feed and protect the sheep. Don't give up looking for a good church. God will judge the evildoers.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Truckinguy said:


> Yes, we definitely like our conflicts, don't we?
> 
> I will say that once I threw off the burden of religion I found the peace and freedom I had never known before. No longer did I have people telling me I was worthless and, in fact, so bad that someone died because of it. I no longer had the pressure of trying to live up to some impossible standard of perfection without which I would not have access to some mythical paradise. I could go about my life free to make my own decisions and be responsible for my own consequences of those decisions. My point is that I felt an enormous sense of relief when I decided not to walk those paths anymore.
> 
> I know Christians who are kind and generous people and I know Christians who are the biggest crooks you could ever meet. I know Muslims who are also kind and generous people and we all know about Muslim who blow up themselves and others. I know non-religious people who are good and others who can't be trusted. It just seems to me that being religious doesn't make anyone any less likely to be good or bad.


amazing how you can fly when you ditch that burden huh?

also, that old adage of "you find what you're looking for" applies, yes? be a compassionate open wonder-filled person and suddenly "those people" start popping up everywhere, especially where you were told before they can't possibly exist!


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## MistysShady (Dec 31, 2013)

Great thread, really enjoying reading these posts! 

My belief is in science, however I used to identify myself as "spiritual" or "pantheist" as I felt that the world was still divine, even though because of the modern days we are living in, the world may be thoroughly understood, but that knowing (science) didn't make it any less magical, spiritual, or whatever. 

But these days, I feel in my heart a big gaping hole... that would be where the love and hope that came with this belief was. What happened to it, I really don't know. It is like the science just grew, like moss over the rock that was my sense of spirituality, until facts were all that was left.

This part of me, the moss covered part, tells me the world is the way it is, and to search for some way to show it worship would only be self serving. It might make me feel good again, but the world would still be the same old world who didn't care about what I did. 

The rock part however, really, really wants this feeling again... I am trying to get in to pagan traditions to see if this makes my soul feel better. I think pagan is what I've always felt and believed... just that the natural world is a cycle that I wish to be a part of, rather than under my roof, shaded from the sun and moon... under my fluorescent lights, manipulating the sun... etc. As well as be a part of, worship is really the key. Like I said, it just seems so self-serving so I have been hesitant. Having said that, I am under the impression that because humans are the only animals that have evolved to be so intelligent, we must be here to show appreciation (worship) for this world, not just be a part of it, like all the other animals, hence the worldwide history of incredible art, spiritual ceremonies, etc.

I was raised a Christian by my mother, atheist father. Went to church until I was about 12. Stopped going, I don't know why. As soon as I learned Greek mythology in school, I became interested in other religions (not that mythology is considered religion anymore, but anyways). I still love Christmas songs about baby Jesus, and I appreciate many of the teachings, however since that time I haven't felt Christianity is what resonated most with me. These days I am opposed to a lot of what is in the bible, and the history that Christianity has caused. My mom turns a blind eye to this, something she is very good at. 

As far as sitting down and talking to God goes, I would pray as a child, and felt at peace, but not necessarily having an active conversation. When I was a teenager I was on LSD and stared at the moon, sitting on the beach all night, for literally 12 hours without saying a word. This, while drug-induced, and I apologize, I don't mean to compare your holy moments to a teenagers mind boggled on drugs, but I felt a lot of love in those hours, from the moon...like a big shiny eye that was watching and listening to me, even though I wasn't speaking. While I know this was not divine, it was drugs, it is a feeling I remember and wish I could feel again... after that experience I spoke to the moon all the time, literally out-loud, for years later, after the drug-doing had ceased, I still spoke to "her." Haven't done this in forever. 

But, there's my story, very condensed... this is a huge topic for me right now, as like I said, I've really felt I've "lost my religion" and getting back in touch with it is a priority for me. Thanks for listening, I apologize for the drug reference, but that is my story.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

MistysShady I really enjoyed your post, no need for any apology about your experience. I have heard that many people have used lots of various methods and substances in order to achieve the state of mind required to "get there". :thumb:


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

MistysShady said:


> ....... As far as sitting down and talking to God goes, I would pray as a child, and felt at peace, but not necessarily having an active conversation. When I was a teenager I was on LSD and stared at the moon, sitting on the beach all night, for literally 12 hours without saying a word. This, while drug-induced, and I apologize, I don't mean to compare your holy moments to a teenagers mind boggled on drugs, but I felt a lot of love in those hours, from the moon...like a big shiny eye that was watching and listening to me, even though I wasn't speaking. While I know this was not divine, it was drugs, it is a feeling I remember and wish I could feel again... after that experience I spoke to the moon all the time, literally out-loud, for years later, after the drug-doing had ceased, I still spoke to "her." Haven't done this in forever.
> 
> But, there's my story, very condensed... this is a huge topic for me right now, as like I said, I've really felt I've "lost my religion" and getting back in touch with it is a priority for me. Thanks for listening, I apologize for the drug reference, but that is my story.


Your post was eloquent. I don't think you should apologize for the drug reference or to think that your experience was not holy or divine just because it was drug induced. LSD is a man-made psychotropic similar to the psilocybin from which LSD was inspired in the '50's. Psilocybin along with peyote, morning glory seeds and many other naturally occurring psychotropics have for many thousands of years been used to induce a divine or holy state, to produce visions and wonders, and to communicate with nature and with the gods. 

So I'm going to tell you something that most people don't realize. Our human bodies are chemically equipped to utilize those natural substances for just those purposes. It's not the chemicals in the natural substances consumed that cause the euphoria or divine trance. It is chemicals that are produced naturally by the body to counteract the substances consumed which cause the euphoria/trance. Sometimes those chemicals in the human body will be produced and released into the system to cause the same phenomenon even when an individual has not consumed a psychotropic and may never have consumed a phsychotropic in their entire life. It's always in the body and very often can be caused to be produced and released into the system through ritual fasting if not by consuming a psychotropic substance.

This is one of the reasons why throughout history there have been so many documented instances of holy men, shamans, religious saints, ascetics, etc. etc. that have achieved a state of divine trance and communication and oneness with nature and the gods without having ever consumed any substances. They were tripping out on psychotropic chemicals that their own bodies have produced on their own. Some shamans to this day know how to induce the phenomenon just by thinking about it.

Millions of people pray and strive to achieve that very state every day and every day they fail. There is no shame for you to have experienced what so many others want simply because you consumed a particular substance to achieve that state in your youth. Never apologize for it, be proud that you had the blessed experience and be happy that you still remember it and have appreciation for the experience.

There is a special place you can go to where you may find what you're looking for to fill that empty hole that you mentioned. If you have a car go to Green Point Picnic park at Harrison Lake (it's on the way to Sasquatch Provincial Park) - walk along the shoreline past all the picnic tables continue along the shoreline around the crescent beach until you get to just before where all the many big rocks are and the little point that points towards the tiny island. Pick a place on the smooth round pebbled beach beneath the three big douglas fir trees there whose branches sort of hang out over the beach and lie down, relax, empty your mind and wait. There is a Spirit of Peace that resides there who will find you. PM me if you would like me to pm you with a photo of the place so that you will recognize the spot.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

VA Susan said:


> Those men are wolves, not shepherds! It was wise of you to stay away from them. There are still faithful Shepherds out there who actually feed and protect the sheep. Don't give up looking for a good church. God will judge the evildoers.


 Agree, but I am not searching...I have a 'church' w/in me. 
And, btw, the last pope 'defrocked' hundreds of pediphiles. Not sure if they were penalized, tho...will have to read more on that.

While my beliefs remain the same...the MAIN teachings of the Catholic church, I'm not in line w/a lot of the 'man-made' teachings...i.e., you've sinned if you don't attend Mass on certain days, eating meat on Friday, etc.(where are all those folks who went to hell for that & then they changed it???  )


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Thank Goodness God/Goddess/Cosmos is more merciful and loving than we are!


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## MistysShady (Dec 31, 2013)

Wow, you guys are amazing! Thank you, very much. I will certainly look for that place Pauman. Me and the family are always looking for new places to enjoy, and if we could take the moment to remember, appreciate, and worship as well.


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

MistysShady,
I also tripped on LSD and have used drugs. I'm a Christian now and realize that while I was doing those things I was opening myself up to spiritual powers that are evil. The Lord graciously protected me. A person does not need drugs to find peace with the One true God. Drugs are a counterfeit peace. The Bible tells stories of those who were given powers by the devil. Jesus, the Son of God came to break the Devil's power.


> Acts 16:16-22
> 16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
> 17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
> 18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
> ...


If you read the Bible you will see many such confrontation between good and evil. Somehow Paul was able to see through the pious sounding words and discern an evil spirit behind it all. The Bible says that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. I read a book once called _The Beautiful Side of Evil _by Johanna Michaelson. She was heavily involved in the occult. She believed her psychic powers were a gift from God but later found out that she had been deceived. She finally found deliverance from the evil spirits with the help of some faithful Christians and became a Christian.



> 2 Corinthians 11:
> 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
> 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
> 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


Another account.


> Acts 13:4-12
> 4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
> 5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.
> 6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
> ...


Be very careful what you open yourself up to!


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

Tricky Grama said:


> Agree, but I am not searching...I have a 'church' w/in me.
> And, btw, the last pope 'defrocked' hundreds of pediphiles. Not sure if they were penalized, tho...will have to read more on that.
> 
> While my beliefs remain the same...the MAIN teachings of the Catholic church, I'm not in line w/a lot of the 'man-made' teachings...i.e., you've sinned if you don't attend Mass on certain days, eating meat on Friday, etc.(where are all those folks who went to hell for that & then they changed it???  )


Getting rid of the man made traditions is what happened during the reformation. The church should be "always reforming". Everything needs to be tested by the Bible, and man made traditions need to be thrown out!


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

VA Susan said:


> Be very careful what you open yourself up to!


MistysShady said that what happened with her was a single occurrence that happened many years ago when she was a teenager and that it never happened again. I don't understand what is the point of you chastising and proselytizing to her now and trying to put the spirit of fear on her about something that happened such a long time ago and is over and done with. 

Are you suggesting that if she goes now to a sacred beach near her to enjoy the relaxing peace of nature that she will be opening herself up to an evil influence from nature?


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

Paumon said:


> MistysShady said that what happened with her was a single occurrence that happened many years ago when she was a teenager and that it never happened again. I don't understand what is the point of you chastising and proselytizing to her now and trying to put the spirit of fear on her about something that happened such a long time ago and is over and done with.
> 
> Are you suggesting that if she goes now to a sacred beach near her to enjoy the relaxing peace of nature that she will be opening herself up to an evil influence from nature?


Paumon,
God made the whole world, so no, I am not trying to make her fear going to a geographical location. What I am worried about is trying to reach this altered state of consciousness with or without drugs such as what you were suggesting. 



> This is one of the reasons why throughout history there have been so many documented instances of holy men, shamans, religious saints, ascetics, etc. etc. that have achieved a state of divine trance and communication and oneness with nature and the gods without having ever consumed any substances. They were tripping out on psychotropic chemicals that their own bodies have produced on their own. Some shamans to this day know how to induce the phenomenon just by thinking about it.


The unseen world is very real and evil is real and very deceptive. Did you read the story of Arthur Pink's conversion I posted?


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## MistysShady (Dec 31, 2013)

VA Susan, I do appreciate your input, and thank you Paumon for looking out for me  Whether an altered state of mind (strictly non-drug-induced, for the sake of the conversation) is evil or divine, I don't know but I do know I personally do not cite the Bible as a reliable source. The "accounts" you posted are no more than stories to me, but nonetheless a story can certainly be educational! Therefore I suppose I will believe what my eyes/mind shows me... however I will be sure to take it all with a grain of salt, because like you were sort of saying, things are not always as they seem.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

VA Susan said:


> Paumon,
> God made the whole world, so no, I am not trying to make her fear going to a geographical location. What I am worried about is trying to reach this altered state of consciousness with or without drugs such as what you were suggesting.
> 
> 
> The unseen world is very real and evil is real and very deceptive. Did you read the story of Arthur Pink's conversion I posted?


I see. Well be at ease and relax then. Nobody can reach a nirvanic state or any other altered state of consciousness by simply relaxing in a beautiful place in nature and allowing themself to commune with the spirit of peace there.

I don't believe in trying to make another person feel guilty or fearful because of a drug experiment that brought them pleasure and nirvana in the past when they were a teenager. Reassuring a person that they have no need to apologize to anyone else (especially not to faceless strangers) for that past experience doesn't mean that they are being encouraged to try the experiment again. 

However, if a person does wish to try to achieve a nirvanic state of bliss again, by whatever means of their choosing, I think that is their business alone. It's not my place to assume that a person is going to try to do it again and not my place to try to dissuade them from choosing to do so by telling them threatening and frightening stories about demons. I think it's wrong and counterproductive when people try to frighten other people that way.

Yes, I read the story of Arthur Pink's conversion that you posted for me. I felt that you posted it for me in an attempt to threaten and frighten me. That's why I never commented any further about it.


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

Paumon said:


> I see. Well be at ease and relax then. Nobody can reach a nirvanic state or any other altered state of consciousness by simply relaxing in a beautiful place in nature and allowing themself to commune with the spirit of peace there.
> 
> I don't believe in trying to make another person feel guilty or fearful because of a drug experiment that brought them pleasure and nirvana in the past when they were a teenager. Reassuring a person that they have no need to apologize to anyone else (especially not to faceless strangers) for that past experience doesn't mean that they are being encouraged to try the experiment again.
> 
> ...


I understand why you would take it that way, but that was not how I meant it. The thing about reading someone's posts is that you cannot know the motives and heart of the writer. I was not writing to frighten or to threaten you, but because I was wanting to caution anyone reading, not just you, of possible dangers in the spiritual realm. I do believe the word of God is true. I was only sharing that information for those who might not be aware of those dangers. My warnings were given out of love and I would hope that if I was being influenced by such teachings (as I was before becoming a Christian) that a Christian would risk me getting mad at them and speak the truth to me in love.


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## 354508 (Feb 5, 2013)

I now consider myself an Atheist. I was raised Methodist, by my mother and my ex-catholic father. My dad had a very rough upbringing in the catholic church, his father beat him, his siblings and my grandmother, as well as sexually abused my aunts when they were children. My grandmother went to the church for help, and was told to keep quiet about it, and mind her place, as was god's will. 

I wasn't raised to attend church regularly, but was taken on major holidays, and attended confirmation as an 11-12 year old, and it was the third time my dad had been in a church as an adult. I never knew why before, but it was around this age that my father told me about his father and his actions, and the churches reaction. It gave me a very low view of the catholic faith.

My maternal grandmother is a very religious person, and took me to UMW camp for a couple summers in a row when I was 14-16 years old. At this point, I had started to question my faith, and wasn't sure if I wanted to be a member of the Methodist church, but I went each year, hoping for some new insight that would reinstill my faith. I never found it. 

As I grew older, I began to recognize myself as an agnostic, because I was not quite ready to rule out that there wasn't a God. I was more afraid than anything about the unknown, and what would happen to me after I died. That fear kept me clinging to the last bit of faith I had. I looked into some other religions, but never found one that really made me go "Aha!" 

When I was 22 I had the unpleasant experience that led me to atheism. A few years earlier there was a young teenager that my partner and I had taken in to our home in an attempt to help him straighten up his life. He was skipping school, failing classes, disrespecting his mother, and in general on a path of self destruction. His mother was at her wits end, and having known my partner at that time, and myself our whole lives, she agreed to let Garrett come live with us for the remainder of his 8th grade year of school. In the 6 months he lived with us he only missed one day of school, took his medication, became respectful, got away from many of the friends that were leading him on a path of destruction, and turned himself around. He moved back in with his mother that summer, and was a better kid. Fast forward 2 years, and I get a call at work. Garrett had been killed in a car accident after riding home with a friend on the last day of school. He was 2 weeks from turning 16. I was devastated. This wonderful young man had worked so hard to turn his life around, was doing his best, and was cut down in his prime. I sank into a deep depression following this, and spent the next several months trying to rationalize his death. I tried turning to god for comfort. I found silence. 

As I emerged from the darkness I emerged an atheist. I found the strength to pull myself up, not from an otherworldly power, but from within myself, and from my daughter, and my family. 

I realize that I don't know everything. Nor do I claim to. I'm only 26 for pete's sake! But I know right from wrong, and I know that I need to treat others with respect if I want it in return. Am I perfect? Not by a long shot, but I don't claim to be either. 

I believe in the golden rule, and I don't need religion for that, only morals. Not everyone with religion has morals, just as not everyone with out religion doesn't. As long as you treat me kindly, I will return that favor.

I would also like to say, I am very happy to see everyone having such a nice and civil discussion on a very hot topic.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

That sees to be a pretty common theme with Athiests it seems to me. They have some occurrence they want explained and when they don't find an explanation that somehow means there is no god. I find the 'god lets bad things happen to good people so he must not exist' thing a little shallow. 

As a nihilist I say if god is then you are of no more consequence than a single ant in a single colony is of consequence to you. You are just a cog in the wheel, not any different really than if there was no god at all. At best we are like dogs (in constant need of reprimands and further training not to mess the carpet), at worst it's more like Lovecraft always saw the gods.

But I do see an interconnected nature to everything here. People don't really like to think about it because there is personal pain involved but when something happens to a person, like to this young man you speak of, how does his situation and his death touch other people? How many people has his story inspired and warned, or in some dark corner just contemplated the direction their life was headed? Probably no one will ever know but there's a reason all those touchy freely folks quote things about life being about how many lives you've touched or whatever. 

Just expressing my opinions and impressions, btw, not trying to judge anyone.


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## MistysShady (Dec 31, 2013)

Plendlful said:


> I believe in the golden rule, and I don't need religion for that, only morals. Not everyone with religion has morals, just as not everyone with out religion doesn't. As long as you treat me kindly, I will return that favor.
> 
> I would also like to say, I am very happy to see everyone having such a nice and civil discussion on a very hot topic.


First off, I'm terribly sorry to hear about your friend. May he be resting in peace. 

The first segment I quoted because I think this is such a great view atheists and agnostics tend to have. I want to post a video of a song by a comedian but it is slightly inappropriate, so I'll just semi quote it... "I don't need a million metaphors to understand not to be a jerk." No disrespect to those who desire or need those metaphors (or truths, as they would be considered). I'll figure out who the song is by and post the info in case anyone is interested, it was quite funny and positive, regardless of it's grittiness. 

And I agree that everyone is so lovely and civil. It is what drew me to this forum. I actually have stopped frequenting an equine forum because most of the posters were just plain nasty, even if they weren't trying to be. I know it is hard on the computer to convey tones of voice and what not, but everyone here is doing a superb job!


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

MistysShady said:


> The first segment I quoted because I think this is such a great view atheists and agnostics tend to have. I want to post a video of a song by a comedian but it is slightly inappropriate, so I'll just semi quote it... "I don't need a million metaphors to understand not to be a jerk."


I kind of think if there is this father figure kind of god who sees us as his children that he'd hope that one day every single person felt just that way; Doing good and being good for the sake of it, because it's right and not because he said so. What does every parent want for their children but what they have and are and more?


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## RThomas (Dec 27, 2013)

CraterCove said:


> That sees to be a pretty common theme with Athiests it seems to me. They have some occurrence they want explained and when they don't find an explanation that somehow means there is no god. I find the 'god lets bad things happen to good people so he must not exist' thing a little shallow.


I think most atheists would disagree with you. Most of them don't become atheist because something bad happened which caused them to lose faith. However, that may be what starts their questioning. But for most, that is just the beginning of a much longer journey. And for many, and I'd say for the majority based on my anecdotal evidence, their questioning doesn't have any thing to do with something terrible happening. It certainly didn't for me.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

RThomas said:


> I'd say for the majority based on my anecdotal evidence, their questioning doesn't have any thing to do with something terrible happening. It certainly didn't for me.


Ok, I am curious here, what is it that caused them to question the existence of God?


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## RThomas (Dec 27, 2013)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, I am curious here, what is it that caused them to question the existence of God?


It could be any number of things. We all have individual stories. You can find a lot of these stories with a Google search. Here is one collection, but there are many more. Very interesting stuff. http://comingoutgodless.com/


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, I am curious here, what is it that caused them to question the existence of God?


Personally, for me, it was starting to notice that many people who profess to follow God or call themselves Christians behaving in a very un-Christian like manner. On top of that, I found many on the "outside" showing a lot of compassion, love and support when I needed it. It was a shock to see these people, who I had been taught growing up that they were holy men, doing things that caused people a lot of pain and suffering. It was easier for me to deal with your average person, who I could decide if they were good or bad on my own, than deal with someone who professes to hold themselves to a higher spiritual standard but turns out to be just as capable of doing wrong as the next guy. 

Not trying to bash Christianity in particular, it's just what my experience is. I don't believe in any other Gods either but I haven't had to experience any negativity from anyone else who follows any other path.

I don't do blind faith very well, I find comfort in something that's real and tangible. I can see the seasons change, I experience life and death here with my animals and I try to treat others the way I want to be treated. I don't think the answers to life are that complicated and I think we tend to over think things. Once you clear all the complicated stuff out of the way, I think the answers are right under our nose!


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Ok, I am curious here, what is it that caused them to question the existence of God?


For me it's been there as long as I can remember.

I attended a Methodist school full time from the age of 5 to the age of 11, I enjoyed the Bible stories well enough but they never rang true to me even as a small child, they were just stories to me and I've always felt it was all mythology kind of instinctually (and before I get accused of being insulting, I'm talking about how I _felt_ as a small child of only 5 onwards).

I don't feel as though I ever rejected God/s as I have never, ever felt there was such a thing _to _reject.


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## CraterCove (Jan 24, 2011)

I am just going to say... those are all reasons that Jesus was against religion. Self-righteous, duplicitous, hypocritical people who teach others to conform or be cast out. Ironically, that's exactly what 'christians' are not supposed to be.

Though, I will say, you have to search out good people. You don't just walk into a church and automatically find an environment of love and support and caring. You have to search for it. It's why despite my misgivings about some of their teachings and despite being baptized in the LDS faith--- and despite not believing that god's (or lack thereof) existence has any impact on mine we go to a Methodist church on a regular basis.

However, I found the church where all the grandparents go so my sons get loads and loads of positive attention from what they cal 'the grandma ladies'.


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

I read this quote just now and my first thought was to share it with those reading this forum. It was written by Philip Mauro and published in 1909, but the words are timeless. The book is called _Life in the Word_.
He talks about the Bible being the living Word and also that Jesus Christ is also called the living Word. All other things we read are dead words, but God's word is alive and powerful.


> We are passing through the domain of death, the country of the last enemy that is to be destroyed, and who has put all things in this scene under his feet ( 1 Cor. 15 :26, 27). On every hand our eyes meet the unmistakable evidences of the supreme sovereignty of death. But in this domain of death there is a Living Word ; --a Living Word in a dying world. The forces of corruption and decay cannot fasten upon it, and it laughs at the attacks of its enemies.
> But that Word is here, not merely to manifest life, but rather to impart life to those who are perishing, and to bring them into vital contact with the new Life-source of humanity, the Son of God, the Second Man, the Lord from heaven, Who liveth and was dead, and behold He is alive forevermore, and has the keys of death and of Hades
> (1 Cor.15:47; Rev. 1 :18). He, as Man, has crossed the gulf between the realm of death and that of life. To that end He became &#8220;a partaker of flesh and blood,&#8221; not to improve flesh and blood, but in order that &#8220;through death He might destroy him that had the power of death that is the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage" (Heb. 2:14,15). Having Himself crossed that gulf He is the Way of life to all who believe on Him, who, having heard His Word-- the Word of life--have likewise passed out of death into life (John 5 : 24).
> This is the wonderful provision of God for the deliverance of dying men. In order that they might not die, and because God wills not that any should perish (2 Pet. 3 : 9), He has sent into this dying world a Word of Life. For God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matt 22: 32).
> --Philip Mauro published 1909


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## VA Susan (Mar 2, 2010)

Plendlful said:


> I now consider myself an Atheist. I was raised Methodist, by my mother and my ex-catholic father. My dad had a very rough upbringing in the catholic church, his father beat him, his siblings and my grandmother, as well as sexually abused my aunts when they were children. My grandmother went to the church for help, and was told to keep quiet about it, and mind her place, as was god's will.
> 
> I wasn't raised to attend church regularly, but was taken on major holidays, and attended confirmation as an 11-12 year old, and it was the third time my dad had been in a church as an adult. I never knew why before, but it was around this age that my father told me about his father and his actions, and the churches reaction. It gave me a very low view of the catholic faith.
> 
> ...


Plendlful,
I was so sorry to hear of those painful experiences and how "the church" failed your father's family. Jesus says that not everyone who professes faith is a true Christian.


> Matthew 7:15-23
> 15 &#8220;Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep&#8217;s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor _can_ a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
> 21 &#8220;Not everyone who says to Me, &#8216;Lord, Lord,&#8217; shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, &#8216;Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?&#8217; 23 And then I will declare to them, &#8216;I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!&#8217;


I was also very sad to read about Garrett's death and your heartbreak. I'm glad that you were able to make a difference in his short life and make it so much happier for him. My little infant daughter died a month before she was to be born and so we never got to know her. The Lord gives and the Lord takes away. I have hope of meeting her one day in heaven and one day her soul will be reunited with her glorified body on that great resurrection day. Jesus wept at the tomb of his friend Lazarus and then raised him from the dead. He came to die for sinners and to break the curse of death.


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## 354508 (Feb 5, 2013)

VA Susan, Thank you for your kind words. While we may not share the same beliefs, I do appreciate the sentiment. I am sorry for the loss of your child. I have been fortunate enough to have not lost one of my own children, and I can't imagine your pain.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

> First... what is your belief?


I'm an agnostic atheist. Agnostic in the sense that I believe there is a universal intelligence that we all have access too and atheist in the sense that I don't believe that the universal intelligence is some kind of omnipotent God that has a plan for humanity and is watching over us.




> Two... why do you believe the way you do? How you were taught? by parents? Worldly experience? other... please explain.


Mother was an atheist and father was devout Ancient Greek Orthodox which traces back to the earliest Eastern Christian churches that the Apostles founded. Growing up I tried a variety of Christian Sunday schools and churches in a small town that was a fully Christian town with no people of other religions living there. I was bored with all of those denominations and what they were teaching and I stopped going to church when I was 17. When I was 19 years old I went to a city to attend university and there I met other people who were of other religious beliefs so then I was able to learn about other religions. Before I met those other people I had already come to the conclusion that there isn't a God, religion is all about politics, blind faith, fear of god, social control and rules (which admittedly I realize many people actually do need a fear of god and the control and rules over them because they can't think for themselves) and learning about other people's religious philosophies didn't change my mind about that. 

I believe that religions don't answer the questions that seekers of truth and enlightenment are searching for but if I had to pick some "path" to follow I'd say I like the Buddhist philosophy most. I'm not Buddhist but Buddhism aligns the most with my own philosophy about cause and effect and a universal intelligence that we can tap into. Buddhism is simple with no strict rules and regulations, there is no Buddhist God and it's not about religion, there is no jealous or vengeful god that demands to be worshipped, no sacrificial martyrs and no such thing as Satan. Bhuddism is tolerant of all other beliefs and religions, it's all about having purpose in one's way of life and understanding about cause and effect:

1 - to lead a moral life, to be compassionate,
2 - to be mindful and aware of thoughts and actions, of cause and effect,
3 - to develop wisdom and understanding,
4 - to seek universal enlightenment.

There are some other precepts but those are the most important ones and they align with my own philosophy. From Judaism and Christianity I like Moses' 10 Commandments, also Jesus' Lord's Prayer for saying grace and his sermon on the mount because of their messages and I agree that what are considered the 7 Deadly Sins are just that, deadly sins. 



> Three.. Have you ever had an honest to goodness "sitty down on a stump" type talk with the God of your faith


No. No talks with gods but I've sat down to meditate and have talks with nature and the universe. Sometimes I've directed questions at the universe and the answers have come to me intuitively or through dreams but I've never heard voices or seen visions.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Ok, I am curious here, what is it that caused them to question the existence of God?


For me, it was cognitive dissonance stemming from the way the natural world does not seem to suggest that there is an omnipotent deity who cares deeply about our fate. 

Looking strictly at the evidence presented by the natural world, I'm afraid you'd reach an entirely different conclusion! :hysterical:

Thus it seems that religion (any religion) is mostly a matter of wishful thinking ... wanting to believe that a "man upstairs" is looking out for us, and, of course, when we die, we'll go to Paradise and be reunited with all of our lost loved ones. Who _wouldn't_ want that? But _wanting_ it doesn't necessarily make it realistic. 

You might say that the existence of malaria made an agnostic out of me.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

MistysShady - I wanted to tell you that I'm familiar with that spot at Harrison that Paumon recommended to you. I was there to attend an outdoor Wiccan wedding and concur that it is lovely with a special magical quality to it. It sparkles. Our family have returned there a few times in summers to picnic and swim. It's held sacred by the people of the StÃ³:l&#333; Nation, other people have quiet weddings there, it is a great place to go to paddle around in a canoe, and the variety of rocks there are great to build inukshuks or inspire other creativity. :thumb:


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