# watch what you say around your kids



## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3157716/posts

I wonder if this is genuine. If so, I wonder what the left thinks of this. 

And does this apply for only the majority, or also minorities?


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

People like her are the reason people don't like people like her. Seth


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Here are her remarks: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...topeka-school-district-senior-recognition-day They seem pretty straightforward to me and I agree with her. If I heard grandpa making a racial joke at dinner...yeah, I'd say something. Wouldn't you? As for whether it should be applied to everyone: of course. My daughter had a South American Spanish teacher who called the kids, "stupid ------" when they missed an answer. That was wrong too and we called her on it.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Here are her remarks: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...topeka-school-district-senior-recognition-day They seem pretty straightforward to me and I agree with her. If I heard grandpa making a racial joke at dinner...yeah, I'd say something. Wouldn't you? As for whether it should be applied to everyone: of course. My daughter had a South American Spanish teacher who called the kids, "stupid ------" when they missed an answer. That was wrong too and we called her on it.




I would leave grandpa be. He's lived 88 years, fought in two wars and raised all of us, he can say what he pleases. Seth


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Seth said:


> I would leave grandpa be. He's lived 88 years, fought in two wars and raised all of us, he can say what he pleases. Seth


 You can do as you please, your grandpa may vary.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> You can do as you please, your grandpa may vary.


He does not vary, same guy my whole life. Seth


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Seth said:


> He does not vary, same guy my whole life. Seth


 Good.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

I understand your point. Just that we're on different sides of this issue. Seth


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Which issue is that? Objecting to off-color comments or jokes or just disliking Michelle Obama?


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

So did the man/woman Michelle also supply an 800 number to report what was said? I do not in any way favor racial humor (unless its really funny) or racial comments. I do not feel it is appropriate for the first lady(?) to encourage children to spy on their families. I do believe in raising awareness so that our children understand that stupid and hatred are expressed by all people of all races, to their shame.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

JJ Grandits said:


> So did the man/woman Michelle also supply an 800 number to report what was said? I do not in any way favor racial humor (unless its really funny) or racial comments. I do not feel it is appropriate for the first lady(?) to encourage children to spy on their families. I do believe in raising awareness so that our children understand that stupid and hatred are expressed by all people of all races, to their shame.


 Where is it that she tells anyone to spy on family members? Can you cut and paste that quote here? Here is the actual speech again. Without the inflammatory baloney that the OP's link has: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...topeka-school-district-senior-recognition-day


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Which issue is that? Objecting to off-color comments or jokes or just disliking Michelle Obama?


Both, I suppose. Off color comments do not offend me, and I certainly have no respect for our First Lady or her husband. However, I do not believe in broad-brush racism. For example, I don't believe all redheads are soulless, but if I saw one that was, I'd call it like I saw it. Seth


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Without the inflammatory baloney that the OP's link has


 Kindly clarify the "inflammatory baloney" statement. 

Basically I asked three questions, and you did not address them.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

The freerpublic site _really_ put the spin on it. According to the official transcript, she asked the kids to speak up, politely, when they encountered off color or racist remarks within their own family. 

_"You all can make a difference every day in your own lives simply by teaching others the lessons you&#8217;ve learned here in Topeka.

__Maybe that starts simply in your own family, when grandpa tells that off-colored joke at Thanksgiving, or you&#8217;ve got an aunt talks about &#8220;those people.&#8221; Well, you can politely inform them that they&#8217;re talking about your friends. (Applause.)" 
_

_"But no matter what you do, the point is to never be afraid to talk about these issues, particularly the issue of race. Because even today, we still struggle to do that. Because this issue is so sensitive, is so complicated, so bound up with a painful history. And we need your generation to help us break through. We need all of you to ask the hard questions and have the honest conversations, because that is the only way we will heal the wounds of the past and move forward to a better future. (Applause.)"_



Wait a week, she'll stick her foot in her mouth or blow too much of our money again. But the one in the OP is fiction.


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## okiemom (May 12, 2002)

when did off color mean racist? I have always know it to be more bawdy not anything about race.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Tabitha said:


> Kindly clarify the &quot;inflammatory baloney&quot; statement.
> 
> Basically I asked three questions, and you did not address them.





Tabitha said:


> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3157716/posts
> 
> I wonder if this is genuine. If so, I wonder what the left thinks of this.
> 
> And does this apply for only the majority, or also minorities?


 I showed you via the original transcript that it was not genuine. I have no idea what the left thinks of it. And I believe that I specified that in my case, it applied to everybody and even gave a specific example. Do all answers to your posts have to be laid out so specifically for you? As far as the "inflammatory baloney" comment. If you will read my post more carefully, you will see that I did not say you posted inflammatory baloney, but your link did. Do you see? If you need clarification on what I meant by inflammatory baloney...read MO Cows post.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

okiemom said:


> when did off color mean racist? I have always know it to be more bawdy not anything about race.


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-color_humor


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

I think that if the first lady said, "The sky is blue," some of these right-wing screech sites would run the story under the headline,"Michelle Obama: Arbitrary Color Labels on the Horizon!"

Read the information linked to the link in the OP.



> &#8220;Maybe that starts simply in your own family, when grandpa tells that off-colored joke at Thanksgiving, or you&#8217;ve got an aunt [that] talks about &#8216;those people,&#8217;&#8221; she said. &#8220;Well, you can politely inform them that they&#8217;re talking about your friends.


What's wrong with that?

A bit of conversation about things that matter to members of the family.

We have these sorts of conversations within our own family, occasionally.

The most recent was when our sixth-grader was bothered because some of the kids during lunch at school were pulling their eyes into slants and making oriental talk at one of his friends whose mother is from the Philippines. 

We told him it would probably be best to tell the other "friends" who were making fun of the kid that it wasn't cool. "Don't make a major issue about it," we said, "because boys in middle school are mostly looking for a reaction when they do this sort of stuff." 

If he felt that he needed some sort of more substantial retort, he could remind them that the language spoken in the Philippines is Spanish, not oriental.

And, it might be time to evaluate whether the catcalling kids are worth spending much time around.

Heck, I have to watch what I say around my kids and other folks from time to time. What's pretty darned funny to me might very well be misunderstood or offensive to some. 

And, I have to admit that my children have called me on it when they thought I went over the line. Sometimes, I realized that they were right. Sometimes I thought that they weren't. The resulting conversation seemed to be the best place for learning and common understanding of how we should regard others.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

barack can be glad she wants everyone else to be "sensitive" to racial harmony. Otherwise she'd be slapping him silly after nearly every unscripted remark. eric holder would be wearing a goalies mask.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Where is it that she tells anyone to spy on family members? Can you cut and paste that quote here? Here is the actual speech again. Without the inflammatory baloney that the OP's link has: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...topeka-school-district-senior-recognition-day


Hey, im agreeing with her. Sort of. I only find it interesting that her husbands administration is the most racist group to occupy the Whitehouse. I wonder if she brings this up at the dinner table.


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## InTownForNow (Oct 16, 2008)

I try not to over emphasize someone's race-blatantly pointing out the fact that they are black and I'm white doesn't have anything to do with anything, A man (or woman) isn't made by the color of their skin. If they are a good friend, or a hard worker, or whatever the situation calls for is what I'm interested in.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Which issue is that? Objecting to off-color comments or jokes or just disliking Michelle Obama?


I think we are all on the same page as far as disliking her.
She's not a nice person


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

LOL

When it comes to fighting racism, children should seen and not heard. 

Just wait until gramps lets loose on the gays.


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## dizzy (Jun 25, 2013)

My son and his friends are all different colors, nationalities, etc. And they all get together and tell racial jokes. Not one of them is offended by any of the jokes, and normally the one the joke is told against is the one that laughs the most.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Cornhusker said:


> I think we are all on the same page as far as disliking her.
> She's not a nice person


 Not me. I like her a lot from what I know about her. Of course never having met her as you obviously have, I may lack pertinent information about her niceness.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

dizzy said:


> My son and his friends are all different colors, nationalities, etc. And they all get together and tell racial jokes. Not one of them is offended by any of the jokes, and normally the one the joke is told against is the one that laughs the most.


 Well that seals it then. Racist jokes are awesome!


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## dizzy (Jun 25, 2013)

We made it a policy to always accept our children's friends. There was never one that was turned away or made to feel out of place at our house. Even if they knew I didn't always approve of choices that they made, they knew I still cared about them.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Not me. I like her a lot from what I know about her. Of course never having met her as you obviously have, I may lack pertinent information about her niceness.


Nah, I never met her.
Lots of people in public service I don't like, and never met a one.
Heck, as hard as it is to believe, some people don't like GW Bush, and I'm pretty sure the never met him.
Same with Palin, Cheney, Simon Cowell, and Peewee Herman


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Cornhusker said:


> Nah, I never met her.
> Lots of people in public service I don't like, and never met a one.
> Heck, as hard as it is to believe, some people don't like GW Bush, and I'm pretty sure the never met him.
> Same with Palin, Cheney, Simon Cowell, and Peewee Herman


 I try not to base whether or not I think a person is nice by their political leanings. I think Bush was probably a nice enough guy and I think his wife was terrific. But I do think most Michelle Obama haters hate her because she is Obama's wife or worse...because she is black. Here on GC I've heard her referred to as a wookie or Chewbacca. And in this thread, a man/woman? There is a difference between disliking someones politics or behavior and behaving like a middle schooler and calling names.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

dizzy said:


> We made it a policy to always accept our children's friends. There was never one that was turned away or made to feel out of place at our house. Even if they knew I didn't always approve of choices that they made, they knew I still cared about them.


Same here


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

I do not call people names, (wookie, ginger, etc.)when that happens, credibility is lost. I will call someone a jerk, [content deleted], or whatever shoe fits them, broad brush strokes miss a lot of details. I try to make my points respectfully and with decent vocabulary. Seth


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I try not to base whether or not I think a person is nice by their political leanings. I think Bush was probably a nice enough guy and I think his wife was terrific. But I do think most Michelle Obama haters hate her because she is Obama's wife or worse...because she is black. Here on GC I've heard her referred to as a wookie or Chewbacca. And in this thread, a man/woman? There is a difference between disliking someones politics or behavior and behaving like a middle schooler and calling names.


It's always easiest to claim racism and not look too hard at the real reasons


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

I'm proud to be more tolerant than most of you. I can laugh at jokes about anything except filth. I've heard hilarious jokes about all races, ages, both sexes (actually trans gendered folks too) and most of them are funny. I even laugh at jokes about people just like me. People need to quit being so up tight and laugh more.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

poppy said:


> I'm proud to be more tolerant than most of you. I can laugh at jokes about anything except filth. I've heard hilarious jokes about all races, ages, both sexes (actually trans gendered folks too) and most of them are funny. I even laugh at jokes about people just like me. People need to quit being so up tight and laugh more.


People love to be offended
Gives them an excuse to squawk


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Cornhusker said:


> It's always easiest to claim racism and not look too hard at the real reasons


 When I asked why the poster was calling her a wookie and Chewbacca they wouldn't answer. Why do you suppose they were calling her that? She doesn't appear to be suffering from hirsutism and she speaks normally. It's also very easy to claim it's NOT racism.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Cornhusker said:


> People love to be offended
> Gives them an excuse to squawk


You're right. I can't imagine spending my time looking for something to be offended about. There's enough serious things going on in the world to pay attention to for me to worry about who is and isn't PC. I ain't.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> When I asked why the poster was calling her a wookie and Chewbacca they wouldn't answer. Why do you suppose they were calling her that? She doesn't appear to be suffering from hirsutism and she speaks normally. It's also very easy to claim it's NOT racism.


Because she's a loudmouth?
I don't know, I do know that wookies aren't black, so any perceived racism is most likely your own prejudice.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Cornhusker said:


> Because she's a loudmouth?
> I don't know, I do know that wookies aren't black, so any perceived racism is most likely your own prejudice.


 I doubt it. You'd think Ann Coulter or Laura Ingraham would be getting it too if it was about being a loudmouth.They are much louder than Michelle Obama. "Blacks" aren't exactly black either, are they?


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Cornhusker said:


> Nah, I never met her.
> Lots of people in public service I don't like, and never met a one.
> Heck, as hard as it is to believe, some people don't like GW Bush, and I'm pretty sure the never met him.
> Same with Palin, Cheney, Simon Cowell, and Peewee Herman


Met Paul Rueben (Peewee Herman) once, seemed nice enough, but I didn't shake his hand. Seth


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Cornhusker said:


> People love to be offended
> Gives them an excuse to squawk


Many people take themselves way too seriously. Seth


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I doubt it. You'd think Ann Coulter or Laura Ingraham would be getting it too if it was about being a loudmouth.They are much louder than Michelle Obama. "Blacks" aren't exactly black either, are they?


You don't remember the lefties saying Coulter was a transvestite?
Must be racists who were saying that
Remember when the lefties said Palin's son was actually her grandson and sent someone to live next door and make up stories?
Must have been racially motivated
I'm deeply offended by you people who hate white people
I demand an investigation from the DOJ, and Obama needs to say it was stupid to say those things
Political correctness all around


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Cornhusker said:


> You don't remember the lefties saying Coulter was a transvestite?
> Must be racists who were saying that
> Remember when the lefties said Palin's son was actually her grandson and sent someone to live next door and make up stories?
> Must have been racially motivated
> ...


I'm sure you can figure out how one can be racially motivated and the others were plain mean. You didn't hear it from me either. I think people who indulge in sophomoric name calling like that are lacking in any real reasoning skills. Doesn't matter if they are on the right or left.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

It is no ones business what is said in my home. 
I do still have the right to say what I please. 
I also have the right to dislike who or what I please. 
If others find me offensive they have the right to stay away from me. 
I don't go out of my way to be hurtful.
I am kind of tired of others expecting me to be super sensitive to their ideas when they can stomp mine into the dust and get pats on the back. 
Whether folks like it or not we ALL have the right to think and speak as we choose.
Even bigots and bullies. 
Instead of teaching folks to be super sensitive why not teach the easily offended to toughen up. That is what my mother taught me. Stand up for your belief and don't let anyone push you. Bullies in school left me along because the didn't get a rise out of me. Bullies in school left my boys alone for the same reason. My boys also took on bullies on behalf of other kids. 

The world is a hard place. WE need to teach kids how to survive it, not weaken society in this country so that they will not be able to handle the Putins of their world. 

Bullying is not ok but neither is being an over sensitive tattle tale. If some one is mean stand up to them to their face. Don't run and snitch to some one not involved in the situation.

Words do not break bones. If there is a threat then yes go seek help.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Blast away if you want but this is my opinion. I don't believe in racism at all. When you live in a country where red, yellow, black and white are all sitting in our congress, presidency, clergy, schools, hospitals, law offices and all other places of high ranking employment that many are also a part of the democratic voting process. In other words they must be voted on by the majority of the American people there is not racism. 

Ok, before the blow up. There is however hatism as I call it. When I listen to racism comments many times they could be aimed at red, yellow, black or white. I have seen hatism aimed at "homesteaders" for example. Some folks really believe we are a bit off our crocks so to speak. They want nothing to do with us or any dirty old farmers that come in a cafe with sheep (or whatever) your choice of carp is on your boots. 

Off color jokes in my mind are jokes that are mean spirited or nasty toward anyone. 

The racism card is no good anymore yet some folks continue to throw it. Our president and first lady are black. In my mind if that can happen this country is not racist as a majority. Sure there are hatist that know if they simply tried that card folks would laugh at them so they have to label it racism. There are also those that seem to want to feel sorry for themselves and throw racism out there for a reason they didn't get the better job. Come on compare resume's. Heck I am sure many folks can say they have applied for a job and someone else got it. Maybe just because they had a nicer get up on. Who knows?

I just don't buy it anymore. We need to work on hatism and admit racism is an "old word." Red, yellow, black, white, rich, poor, homeless and us (homesteaders just as an example). WE should be over that already. 

If your kids sat at the dinner table and made a nasty comment about "anyone" wouldn't you tell them that was not acceptable? Come on is it racism or just hatism? Quit making this racism.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MJsLady said:


> It is no ones business what is said in my home.
> I do still have the right to say what I please.
> I also have the right to dislike who or what I please.
> If others find me offensive they have the right to stay away from me.
> ...


The thing is she didn't tell anyone to become a "tattle tale". She told them to do exactly what you advocate- to stand up for what they believe and not be bullied or cowed into accepting speech they don't like even if it's spoken in their own home. You and others can say what you like and if your kid calls you out on it you are free to explain to them why you feel that way and why it's acceptable. Or you can just say my house, my rules. Your choice.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

So you think KKK'ers aren't racist? How about your run of the mill White Supremacists? Get it? WHITE. SUPREMACISTS. Just because many people are not racists does not mean racism does not exist. That's just silly. It's like saying that because most people in the US have brown hair, therefore blondes and redheads don't exist.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Racism exists. It is blatant on this very website.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> The thing is she didn't tell anyone to become a &quot;tattle tale&quot;. She told them to do exactly what you advocate- to stand up for what they believe and not be bullied or cowed into accepting speech they don't like even if it's spoken in their own home. You and others can say what you like and if your kid calls you out on it you are free to explain to them why you feel that way and why it's acceptable. Or you can just say my house, my rules. Your choice.


 Exactly, and this is why it's important for linked sources to be reputable and accurate. Even though it's been pointed out over and over that she never told anyone to spy or report anyone, the drum beat still goes on as if the OP's source was actually correct instead of inflammatory baloney. Maybe people should follow the links within their link and check these things out before they post them. Unless of course, inflammatory baloney is actually what they want to post.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> So you think KKK'ers aren't racist? How about your run of the mill White Supremacists? Get it? WHITE. SUPREMACISTS. Just because many people are not racists does not mean racism does not exist. That's just silly.


I believe they are just "hatist." Some folks just like to hate someone. It makes them a part of a group and they feel they fit in. 

I don't appreciated being called silly. There have been many times that what you have said I think is silly but you have a right to your opinion. 

We are a melting pot and we have melted for many years. That is not a racist country IMO. Sure there are those among us that show their insecurities by hating folks that are not the "same" as they are but that is their issues. I won't make them mine. I belong in my World and I don't have a need to be in some group to put others down so that I can feel bigger than I actually am.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> I believe they are just &quot;hatist.&quot; Some folks just like to hate someone. It makes them a part of a group and they feel they fit in.
> 
> I don't appreciated being called silly. There have been many times that what you have said I think is silly but you have a right to your opinion.
> 
> We are a melting pot and we have melted for many years. That is not a racist country IMO. Sure there are those among us that show their insecurities by hating folks that are not the &quot;same&quot; as they are but that is their issues. I won't make them mine. I belong in my World and I don't have a need to be in some group to put others down so that I can feel bigger than I actually am.


 I didn't call you silly, I called the idea that racism no longer exists silly. See the difference?


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

In my home if someone says something about anyone....it is handled accordingly. 

Example: Little Susie comes home very upset because the kids at school teased her and were mean about her hair cut. What do you do? In my home it would be telling her that sometimes people are mean...don't let it be your problem.

Little Jackie comes home very upset because some kid made fun of her because of her hair and the color of her skin. What do you do? In my home it would be telling her that sometimes people are mean...don't let it be your problem. 

We have been host parents to 21 foreign exchange students over the past 15 years. We have also been house parents to 11 teenage at risk teens in a boys home. I am a CASA. I care about all human beings but I refuse to accept the racism card. It needs to mean nothing. All kids have come home after having a rough day with someone .... it is handled the same for all. People are mean sometimes. You can't do anything about their behavior but you can adjust how you handle it.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I didn't call you silly, I called the idea that racism no longer exists silly. See the difference?


It is hard to express on here what I want to say but here goes. I get what you are saying but I do disagree. 

To me racism is just a man made "word." Without people giving it meaning it means nothing. 

"Hate" is real, it is a feeling and is what gives the word "racism" its meaning.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> It is hard to express on here what I want to say but here goes. I get what you are saying but I do disagree.
> 
> To me racism is just a man made "word." Without people giving it meaning it means nothing.
> 
> "Hate" is real, it is a feeling and is what gives the word "racism" its meaning.


Racism is hate based on color of skin or race. It exists and calling it something else does not make it anything less.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> It is hard to express on here what I want to say but here goes. I get what you are saying but I do disagree.
> 
> To me racism is just a man made &quot;word.&quot; Without people giving it meaning it means nothing.
> 
> &quot;Hate&quot; is real, it is a feeling and is what gives the word &quot;racism&quot; its meaning.


 And some people are stupid enough to hate based on the color of someone's skin. Some because of someone's religion. Just because something is stupid and wrong doesn't make it not real and sticking your head in the sand and plugging your ears and saying "lalalala" doesn't make it not real either.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Also, ALL words are man made. Where did you think they came from?


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

My head is not in the sand. Hate is very real and not just a word.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

With what I said we have done.....Don't tell me my head is in the sand! I have seen more "hate" than you probably ever will. I have dealt with more "hate" than you ever will. I have received more reward in seeing those that were victims of "hate" step up and decide racism is just a word. It can't hurt them unless they let it have more power than just being a word.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> With what I said we have done.....Don't tell me my head is in the sand! I have seen more "hate" than you probably ever will. I have dealt with more "hate" than you ever will. I have received more reward in seeing those that were victims of "hate" step up and decide racism is just a word. It can't hurt them unless they let it have more power than just being a word.


Are you saying that racism does not exist if you don't let it hurt you?

Try telling that to my mother, brothers, sisters who are all of Japanese decent and have been fighting racism their whole lives. It is the actions that hurt you in the work place and life in general.

You used the word victim. How can they be victims if racism does not exist?


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Racism IMO is a low class, insecure, irresponsible, needy word used to disguise a "hatred" for anyone unlike themself. I am the child of a Vietnam veteran KIA in the jungles of Vietnam. I am the grandchild of those serving in WWII and Korea. I am the great grand child of those serving in WWI and it goes on. I am part of a very military family. I came home from school one day as a young child and told my grandpa that the kids at school told me my daddy was killed by "those ----s" not even sure that is spelled right. Grandpa told me something that stuck with me for years. They were just men, just like my daddy, doing what their country required them to do. I needed to "hate" the war not the people.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> Racism IMO is a low class, insecure, irresponsible, needy word used to disguise a "hatred" for anyone unlike themself. I am the child of a Vietnam veteran KIA in the jungles of Vietnam. I am the grandchild of those serving in WWII and Korea. I am the great grand child of those serving in WWI and it goes on. I am part of a very military family. I came home from school one day as a young child and told my grandpa that the kids at school told me my daddy was killed by "those ----s" not even sure that is spelled right. Grandpa told me something that stuck with me for years. They were just men, just like my daddy, doing what their country required them to do. I needed to "hate" the war not the people.


Racism is describing the type of hate.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> So YOU get to decide which words are real and which aren't? How about gays? Do you think there aren't people who judge others because they are gay? Or is that just generic hate too? When hate is focused on particular traits like race, that is racism. Whether you like it or not. And yes. I do think your head is in the sand if you think racism doesn't exist.


 
Absolutely it is "hate." So what is judgements against those that are gay? You just made my point. It is just hate. We haven't come up with a word for it yet. I don't want to come up with a "generic" word for it. It is what it is and it is wrong.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Are you saying that racism does not exist if you don't let it hurt you?
> 
> Try telling that to my mother, brothers, sisters who are all of Japanese decent and have been fighting racism their whole lives. It is the actions that hurt you in the work place and life in general.
> 
> You used the word victim. How can they be victims if racism does not exist?


 
Because lots of people are victims of "hate." I truly despise that hatred but it doesn't define anyone except those that are the "haters."


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Any hate can be focused on one particular trait. For example: I hate beets. That doesn't mean I hate all veggies, it means I hate beets. You think that because there isn't a specific term like racism for gay-bashing that it doesn't actually exist?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> Because lots of people are victims of "hate." I truly despise that hatred but it doesn't define anyone except those that are the "haters."


It defines the type of hate. That is very important to those that experience that type of hate.

I am perfectly fine with someone hating me because of my actions. I am not fine with someone hating me because of my race, something I can not change.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

So here is a very cliche' saying that all of us have heard but many of us need to live by. "sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never harm me." It is not about sticking my head in the sand, it is about really making it mean ... nothing. Most of us are heinz 57 in the US. I just don't get why we play into this. I am sure some of you are 100% something but not me. I am part Indian, part Norwegian, and part English. My biggest percentage is Cherokee Indian. I'm proud of it and it doesn't bother me one bit.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

painterswife said:


> It defines the type of hate. That is very important to those that experience that type of hate.
> 
> I am perfectly fine with someone hating me because of my actions. I am not fine with someone hating me because of my race, something I can not change.


Seriously though it is their problem. Don't make it yours. I can guarantee that your family is a closer, happier, and more stable family than any of those that spend their time "hating" someone or something different than themselves.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> So hear is a very cliche' saying that all of us have heard but many of us need to live by. "sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never harm me." It is not about sticking my head in the sand, it is about really making it mean ... nothing. Most of us are heinz 57 in the US. I just don't get why we play into this. I am sure some of you are 100% something but not me. I am part Indian, part Norwegian, and part English. My biggest percentage is Cherokee Indian. I'm proud of it and it doesn't bother me one bit.


It has to be acknowledged to change it. It has to be shouted from the rooftops to educate and change it.

Words do harm. You can fight to ignore them but they do for so many.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Any hate can be focused on one particular trait. For example: I hate beets. That doesn't mean I hate all veggies, it means I hate beets. You think that because there isn't a specific term like racism for gay-bashing that it doesn't actually exist?


 
That is not what I said. Like many times you are twisting words. It exists because of people who "hate" those that are different than them.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> Seriously though it is their problem. Don't make it yours. I can guarantee that your family is a closer, happier, and more stable family than any of those that spend their time "hating" someone or something different than themselves.


I fight for those that can't just as people fought so I a women can vote, own businesses etc. I will continue to fight when I think something is wrong. Racism is wrong and I will fight it in every way I can. My words are powerful and I will use them over and over to acknowledge that hate and fight it.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

And a cross burning in your front yard is just a campfire by your reckoning, right?


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

painterswife said:


> It has to be acknowledged to change it. It has to be shouted from the rooftops to educate and change it.
> 
> Words do harm. You can fight to ignore them but they do for so many.


 
Absolutely words do hurt. I am not arguing that with you at all. I acknowledge that you and your family have been hurt many times by those that are "threatened" by someone different than themselves. 

One big point I agree with you on is that people need be educated on the effects of hate. Usually those that are called "racists" dislike and "hate" many people and many things, not just one particular race of people. They just like to "hate" anything different than them. That is where educating is important.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

painterswife said:


> I fight for those that can't just as people fought so I a women can vote, own businesses etc. I will continue to fight when I think something is wrong. Racism is wrong and I will fight it in every way I can. My words are powerful and I will use them over and over to acknowledge that hate and fight it.


 
and I am right there with you fighting against "hate, the emotion" which in my opinion is the basis for all words "haters" use against those that are different from self.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> and I am right there with you fighting against "hate, the emotion" which in my opinion is the basis for all words "haters" use against those that are different from self.


So how can you tell people that racism is just a word? You now acknowledge that words hurt and racism is hate. It names a horrible action.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I'm not twisting words. I'm making a point and you don't like it, so deal with that rather than continually trying to make yourself a victim in an argument.


 
Anyone who knows me would laugh at that statement. One thing I am not is a victim. I am a positive person who tries to see the positive things in a negative situation. Your point made no sense with this discussion. "Hate" exists all around us but it is exactly that. It is what it is. It is wrong.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Why someone tells something about why they have their views and feelings so strongly does not mean they are trying to play a victim's role. It simply means they have a reason behind their feelings. I am not a victim at all. I am a strong survivor. "Hate" LOL I don't know how old you are but try being a child of a man fighting in Vietnam in those days. Don't tell me I don't understand "hate" because I do. There is really only one thing I truly "hate." There is it!


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Ok, I am done. PW I truly am sorry for any pain you and yours have felt. I wish you much happiness and success in your life and do truly hope that you can make a difference in the country and help educate others on the affects of being afraid and threatened by anything different than themself.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

painterswife said:


> So how can you tell people that racism is just a word? You now acknowledge that words hurt and racism is hate. It names a horrible action.


What a load of bull. The left likes to overuse the word hate to fit their agenda. Someone said she hates beets. I'm betting she doesn't. She may not like how they taste but she doesn't swell up with hate if she sees a beet in the grocery store. It's perfectly okay to dislike people for any number of reasons. Some people don't like to be around any people and become recluses. Doesn't mean they hate everyone or anyone. The left bashes conservatives far more than people bash different races. Do you hate conservatives? I admit I don't like being around city people in general and inner city people in particular, Muslims, flamboyant gays, politicians, and others. I'm free to associate with people of my choosing. Doesn't mean I hate those groups. I certainly don't mean them any harm or wish anything bad on them.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> So you think KKK'ers aren't racist? How about your run of the mill White Supremacists? Get it? WHITE. SUPREMACISTS. Just because many people are not racists does not mean racism does not exist. That's just silly. It's like saying that because most people in the US have brown hair, therefore blondes and redheads don't exist.


Yet the left claim that exclusively black groups aren't racist
Seems hypocritical to me


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Racism is hate based on color of skin or race. It exists and calling it something else does not make it anything less.


That's why Obama, Holder and MO are racists


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Three times you've claimed victimhood in this thread (claiming I called you silly, getting worked up because of the "head in the sand" comment and claiming I twisted your words) but you just did it again by equating racism with being the child of a soldier during the Vietnam War. You are arguing against your own stance at this point so I'll leave you to it.


 
Wrong again. Why are you so threatened by anyone that actually has life experiences? Lets see.... I saw soldiers, not just my father, get spit on, called baby killers, told to die on and on. I get "hate" from experience.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

grandma12703 said:


> Wrong again. Why are you so threatened by anyone that actually has life experiences? Lets see.... I saw soldiers, not just my father, get spit on, called baby killers, told to die on and on. I get "hate" from experience.


Because it might mean someone can dislike the Obamas for reasons other than skin color and their fan club can't accept that.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

poppy said:


> I'm proud to be more tolerant than most of you. I can laugh at jokes about anything except filth. I've heard hilarious jokes about all races, ages, both sexes (actually trans gendered folks too) and most of them are funny. I even laugh at jokes about people just like me. People need to quit being so up tight and laugh more.


Now that made me spit coffee all over my computer screen! Proud to be more tolerant than the rest of us..... :hysterical:


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## crazyfarm (Oct 29, 2013)

grandma12703 said:


> Blast away if you want but this is my opinion. I don't believe in racism at all. When you live in a country where red, yellow, black and white are all sitting in our congress, presidency, clergy, schools, hospitals, law offices and all other places of high ranking employment that many are also a part of the democratic voting process. In other words they must be voted on by the majority of the American people there is not racism.
> 
> Ok, before the blow up. There is however hatism as I call it. When I listen to racism comments many times they could be aimed at red, yellow, black or white. I have seen hatism aimed at "homesteaders" for example. Some folks really believe we are a bit off our crocks so to speak. They want nothing to do with us or any dirty old farmers that come in a cafe with sheep (or whatever) your choice of carp is on your boots.
> 
> ...


You don't believe racism is real.................. You must be white. Hey, I used to think like you. I'm a white girl. I did not marry a white boy though. I married a Mexican. Let me tell you, racism is alive and well.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

grandma12703 said:


> So here is a very cliche' saying that all of us have heard but many of us need to live by. "sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never harm me." It is not about sticking my head in the sand, it is about really making it mean ... nothing. Most of us are heinz 57 in the US. I just don't get why we play into this. I am sure some of you are 100% something but not me. I am part Indian, part Norwegian, and part English. My biggest percentage is Cherokee Indian. I'm proud of it and it doesn't bother me one bit.


That is a very false statement though. Words hurt far more and leave bruises in the mind that sometimes never heal. Ask anyone who has been the brunt of any sort of verbal abuse and they will tell you it hurts more than a slap in the face would. Having been on the receiving end of both as a child the hits and kicks went away but the words are still there in the back of my mind forever.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

crazyfarm said:


> You don't believe racism is real.................. You must be white. Hey, I used to think like you. I'm a white girl. I did not marry a white boy though. I married a Mexican. Let me tell you, racism is alive and well.


Actually I am 1/2 Indian. I look Indian. I guess I am just different. I try to just ignore ignorant people who hate for no reason beyond someone being different.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> That is a very false statement though. Words hurt far more and leave bruises in the mind that sometimes never heal. Ask anyone who has been the brunt of any sort of verbal abuse and they will tell you it hurts more than a slap in the face would. Having been on the receiving end of both as a child the hits and kicks went away but the words are still there in the back of my mind forever.


 Yes words hurt and hurt bad but as I have gotten older I have learned that words that are thrown out of hate because of something people are afraid or threatened by (meaning something different than themself) are seriously their problem. Not mine. I won't make them mine. For the best defense is to be successful and happy.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Patchouli said:


> That is a very false statement though. Words hurt far more and leave bruises in the mind that sometimes never heal. Ask anyone who has been the brunt of any sort of verbal abuse and they will tell you it hurts more than a slap in the face would. Having been on the receiving end of both as a child the hits and kicks went away but the words are still there in the back of my mind forever.


Words last longer than broken bones as well.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

Why get so angry and go on the attack because someone doesn't share your opinion? If those are grandma's beliefs then those attacking her for them are no better than those they called racist imo. Isn't that that very definition of intolerance?


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

How is it victimhood if the experiences brought out a person who has learned to be a positive person? I think victimhood would be if I were on here telling you that I hate all people and things because of the things that have gone on in my life? I am not that way. I learned to focus on the good things. Looking for the positive side of even negative situations. Hate is hate and it is out there. There unfortunately will always be hate.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

crazyfarm said:


> You don't believe racism is real.................. You must be white. Hey, I used to think like you. I'm a white girl. I did not marry a white boy though. I married a Mexican. Let me tell you, racism is alive and well.


 
You do realize Mexicans and blacks can be racist too. It's not just a white thing.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

dixiegal62 said:


> Why get so angry and go on the attack because someone doesn't share your opinion? If those are grandma's beliefs then those attacking her for them are no better than those they called racist imo. Isn't that that very definition of intolerance?


I personally don't want any child or person to think that racism is just hate. If you think that is an attack so be it. I won't apologize for saying it is not. She posted her opinion and I posted mine. No one is angry.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

Lisa in Idaho tell me exactly what you consider racism to be? You made the comment about me comparing to being a child of a Vietnam Vet. I believe what you consider racism to be is being called names, mocked, being discriminated against at work or at finding work, passed over for promotions, etc. Correct me if I am wrong? Hate is hate! It IS the same type of hate that I saw as a young child when we would pick daddy up at the airport and he and the other soldiers came off the planes. They were red, yellow, black and white. My dad would drag us through that airport as fast as we could go because he was worried about our safety. Hey, I was good even then....I didn't care what those people were doing my daddy was a HERO! I was 4-5-6...I wanted to stop and fight that hate. I don't think it is so different. Was it racism only against the red, yellow and black soldiers? What about the white soldiers? It didn't matter to those doing it.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> Lisa in Idaho tell me exactly what you consider racism to be? You made the comment about me comparing to being a child of a Vietnam Vet. I believe what you consider racism to be is being called names, mocked, being discriminated against at work or at finding work, passed over for promotions, etc. Correct me if I am wrong? Hate is hate! It IS the same type of hate that I saw as a young child when we would pick daddy up at the airport and he and the other soldiers came off the planes. They were red, yellow, black and white. My dad would drag us through that airport as fast as we could go because he was worried about our safety. Hey, I was good even then....I didn't care what those people were doing my daddy was a HERO! I was 4-5-6...I wanted to stop and fight that hate. I don't think it is so different.


Never mind.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

I'm confused. Why is it different? If the races are all being treated the same, which is badly, then please explain why it is two different things.

You don't have to change what you said. You have a right to your opinion. I just can't get my head around it. If racism is about race and not about actions it just confuses me more. Is it not just "hate" across the board in that case?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> I'm confused. Why is it different? If the races are all being treated the same, which is badly, then please explain why it is two different things.


Your father was judged by something they thought he did. You were collateral damage. That is not racism.

It is one thing to be able to justify or defend your actions, you can't just your race.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Your father was judge by something they thought he did. You were collateral damage. That is not racism.
> 
> It is one thing to be able to justify or defend your actions, you can't just your race.


 
I get that part but would you have considered it racism against the red, yellow and black soldiers because I know some did? That is where the difference makes no sense to me at all. It felt the same to all of them.

You shouldn't have to justify your race just as you shouldn't have to justify the fact that you are fighting the war that Uncle Sam said you had to.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> I get that part but would you have considered it racism against the red, yellow and black soldiers because I know some did? That is where the difference makes no sense to me at all. It felt the same to all of them.
> 
> You shouldn't have to justify your race just as you shouldn't have to justify the fact that you are fighting the war that Uncle Sam said you had to.


Only if they treated them differently than your father because of their race. For example, they only treated the orange soldiers badly for doing the same thing. If they treated all soldiers the same then their was no racism.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

I am just trying to make the point that lots of people go through "hate" crimes against their person. If someone that is yellow, red, black, or gay have something happen to them the police classify it as a "hate" crime. It is HATE. Just as when a child is bullied horribly at school because they don't have the money for nice clothes or their water has been shut off so they are dirty. It feels the same to them red, yellow, black or white. It's hate. It hurts the same for everyone who goes through it.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Racism can be hate but not all hate is racism.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> I am just trying to make the point that lots of people go through "hate" crimes against their person. If someone that is yellow, red, black, or gay have something happen to them the police classify it as a "hate" crime. It is HATE. Just as when a child is bullied horribly at school because they don't have the money for nice clothes or their water has been shut off so they are dirty. It feels the same to them red, yellow, black or white. It's hate. It hurts the same for everyone who goes through it.


You made a very clear point that you don't believe there is such a thing as racism. We don't agree and we are being vocal about it.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

I agree to disagree with you PW. One thing I want you to know though is I truly am sorry if your family is going through this. Life is too precious to let others mess with your happiness.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> I agree to disagree with you PW. One thing I want you to know though is I truly am sorry if your family is going through this. Life is too precious to let others mess with your happiness.


You do know that not all racism is hate sometimes it is just bad upbringing and not knowing better. I would actually think the majority of racism is that.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Racism will never die. There are too many people getting rich off of it. Seth


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

painterswife said:


> You do not that not all racism is hate sometimes it is just bad upbringing and not knowing better. I would actually think the majority of racism is that.


No kidding. A classmate of my daughter's told her that he wasn't a racist....he just didn't like ------s.


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## Guest (May 20, 2014)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Not me. I like her a lot from what I know about her. Of course never having met her as you obviously have, I may lack pertinent information about her niceness.


I formed an immediate dislike for her when she stated for the first time in her life she was proud to be an American .


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> No kidding. A classmate of my daughter's told her that he wasn't a racist....he just didn't like ------s.


Well, if I'm right about which word he used, I don't like em either. But I do not judge by ethnicity, but by character. ------s come in every color. Seth


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Seth said:


> Well, if I'm right about which word he used, I don't like em either. But I do not judge by ethnicity, but by character. ------s come in every color. Seth


It might suit your purposes to believe so but that isn't actually true. It is still a pejorative term for African Americans.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

I only know one African American, his name is Ekwere, he was born and raised in Zimbabwe then immigrated here. The rest of the blacks I know are just Americans. Seth


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

********************


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> It might suit your purposes to believe so but that isn't actually true. It is still a pejorative term for African Americans.


Truth is a fickle thing, there is more than one. Mostly it depends on popularity and perspective. Seth


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Lisa, why do you use the term "African American"? Seth


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Seth said:


> Well, if I'm right about which word he used, I don't like em either. But I do not judge by ethnicity, but by character. ------s come in every color. Seth


Look into the origin and the common use of the word and I think that you'll discover that it's pretty color-specific.

Some folks confuse it with "niggardly" which isn't the same word at all.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Racist, homophobia, islamophobia, extremist, radical, denier, truther, etc. etc.. All words used by people without an argument to end one.


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## crazyfarm (Oct 29, 2013)

grandma12703 said:


> Actually I am 1/2 Indian. I look Indian. I guess I am just different. I try to just ignore ignorant people who hate for no reason beyond someone being different.


The racism I see doesn't bother my husband. He has the "rise above" mentality. Bothers the absolute crap out of me because I know better. I know how I am treated and I'm treated very well. He's treated like garbage by some people. When I think of my kids having to deal with this..... Doesn't help that my son is the spiting image of his dad and my daughter is my clone. So even my kids don't look like siblings. I've already had someone ask me how "I came to get a colored baby". I gave her the basics of the birds and the bees. I don't believe she'll ever make such an unintelligent comment again in her life.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Oggie said:


> Look into the origin and the common use of the word and I think that you'll discover that it's pretty color-specific.
> 
> Some folks confuse it with "niggardly" which isn't the same word at all.


I see your point, and you are correct. I equate the word that shan't be typed with a subculture that takes without giving back, that does more harm than good, a drain on those around them, pretty much anyone that's a poor excuse for a human. In my experience, those folks come in all shapes, sizes and colors. Interestingly (to me) the first time I heard the word it was used in reference to an older cousin of mine by my grandfather. When I was six(ish) he told grandmother that Paul was a sorry --- G- no good ------. When I asked what that was he said it was anyone who was good for nothing. I guess truth is in popularity and perspective. It was years before I knew people labelled an entire race with that word. It's original (to me) definition has just stuck. Seth


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

painterswife said:


> You do know that not all racism is hate sometimes it is just bad upbringing and not knowing better. I would actually think the majority of racism is that.


 
I agree except... they are brought up to "hate" someone because of the color of their skin. The hate is still the underlying factor IMO. They can be taught to "hate" their neighbor because their dog barks at night. It is still being taught. Taught to "hate" whoever and whatever it is.

Do those parents tell them that they are to be racist in those words? Probably not......but they do tell them that ______ is no good and you shouldn't like people like that. That is teaching "hate."


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> I agree except... they are brought up to "hate" someone because of the color of their skin. The hate is still the underlying factor IMO. They can be taught to "hate" their neighbor because their dog barks at night. It is still being taught. Taught to "hate" whoever and whatever it is.
> 
> Do those parents tell them that they are to be racist in those words? Probably not......but they do tell them that ______ is no good and you shouldn't like people like that. That is teaching "hate."


Racism doesn't necessarily have to involve hate. If you think someone is not equal to other folks based on the color of their skin, that is racism. .


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

grandma12703 said:


> I agree except... they are brought up to "hate" someone because of the color of their skin. The hate is still the underlying factor IMO. They can be taught to "hate" their neighbor because their dog barks at night. It is still being taught. Taught to "hate" whoever and whatever it is.
> 
> Do those parents tell them that they are to be racist in those words? Probably not......but they do tell them that ______ is no good and you shouldn't like people like that. That is teaching "hate."


Again you don't have to Be brought up to HATE to be racist. You only have to treat people badly becasue of their race to be racist. Hate is not a requirement of racism.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

dixiegal62 said:


> Wow talk about anger issues! My comment you quoted wasn't even addressed to you. So I guess you didn't read who I quoted and commented to before you jumped in. You might want to remove that huge chip you have on your shoulder Lisa.


Who was angry? I apologize if you took that as anger..it wasn't. Typing on an iPad and I'm not used to it. I saw whom you quoted but am unaware that we must only answer if our post was quoted. As far as a chip on my shoulder, nope...none that I know of. Sorry to disappoint.
There you go...removed the hey! That I thought I'd already deleted


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

painterswife said:


> Racism can be hate but not all hate is racism.


True. I would also add not all racism is hate. A lot of it is just ignorance. There is no real malice or anger behind it there is just ignorance and misunderstanding and laziness and a failure for people to get out of their little boxes and see other people for what they really are not just what they ignorantly label them as.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

*********


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

My maternal grandparents immigrated to the US from Poland. I'm not Polish American, my father's ancestors are from Scotland, but I'm not Scottish American. I'm just an American. Seth


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Tabitha said:


> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3157716/posts
> 
> I wonder if this is genuine. If so, I wonder what the left thinks of this.
> 
> And does this apply for only the majority, or also minorities?


I don't like the 2 websites that were listed there because they're both biased and full of one-sided hatred and that makes them dishonest and unreliable as news sites.

But I did track down what MO factually said. I don't know what the problem is though. :shrug:

I do think that children and young adults need to try to educate their elders about bigotry and racism but I don't think young people can get dogmatic elders to correct their ways. Older people get set in their ways and don't learn new tricks all that well, and some of them are never more happy than when they're being miserable and ignorant and making other people more miserable. People like that are a waste of time and effort, so why bother with them? 

That's okay though because all the hateful elders are going to die soon anyway so it's just a matter of waiting for them to all die and bid good riddance to them. It's today's young people and the generations that will follow them are the ones that are most important and need to pay attention to the lessons about equality and compassion for fellow humans. So if the young people are taking to heart MO's message about not being racist and bigoted and try to discourage it in others then it's all good. That's all that matters.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Just one more thought to add to the above.

Parents who don't teach their children about respect and tolerance of other people's differences, who say spiteful and racist things about other people - they usually lose the respect and love of their children with the passage of time. Those elders are most often the ones you see in their old age being abandoned or neglected by family, dying alone and not loved or respected by anyone.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Racism certainly does not require hate, or even dislike. It only requires that you have predisposed ideas about someone based on their race. My old pop is a good man. As a child growing up in the South if the 60s and 70s my parents both taught me not to treat people different because of their looks, and taught by example, but they were far more racist than I turned out to be. Seeing the deep rooted racism in them, who I supposed to be free of such things, allowed me to search my own heart and come away a better person. If I claimed to be free of racism, I would be lying, but I do pretty good. My younger family members do even better. 

The things that come out of our mouths!!  the other day two CNAs were cleaning my dad, when he called them "stupid (the word that must not be spoken)s". I was appalled, not that he said it, but that it is in his heart, and it caused me to think on these things. My father has biracial grand kids and great grand kids,that he loves to death, but on occasion would have to be corrected when he said off color things. Things he never thought of as harmful. It is part of all of us's growing.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

I am black, though I use the word African-American interchangeably.When I was growing up in the 1970's, the word "colored" was both passe and offensive and black was the correct term to use. In the 1980's and 1990's, the term African American became the more acceptable term to use because of the negative connotations of words derived from the Latin term for black. When you look them up in a dictionary, they are usually words that mean doom, gloom, filth or evil. 

I grew up in an area where people still used the term "colored" because they thought that they were using the term that was more polite. We didn't like it, but tried to change their behavior by using the term that we were most comfortable with around them. Eventually, it rubbed off on most of them.

I have never understood why some people knowingly use a term/descriptor that is offensive to the people that they are talking to or about. It makes for rather tense relations and sets the stage for mistrust. It is similar to someone who is speaking with a very religious person and then proceeds to use profanity for every other word. It is disrespectful. It is equally disrespectful to tell someone how they should feel about a situation when you have no way of trying on their skin and walking around in it.

I'd never tell an Asian person that they don't experience racism or a LBGT person that they are not discriminated against. Their experience is just different from mine and it isn't fair to marginalize it, as though it is of no importance. It would be similar to not being able to feel empathy for the latest victims of a tornado. The difference is that a tornado can be cleaned up and things might be able to go back to some semblance of normalcy. A person who is being discriminated against cannot change the thing that they are being persecuted for. You can't change your skin color, nor change your sexual orientation.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Martian, from your perspective, how racially insensitive have I been throughout this topic? Maybe I could use this as a learning experience. Seth


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

My mother, rest her soul, was born in texas and raised in OK. She grew up in sundown towns http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundown_town . Until the day she died, she remembered the first time she ever saw a black man. Her and her brother had been made to go into the cellar, and she peaked out of a cracked window in the door. She watched a huge black man, by prior arrangement, come into the yard and, with a hammer, brain their pet goat, sling it over his shoulder, and leave. :rotfl: My mother's early experience with colored folk told her that they were goat killing monsters. I remember that when we first moved to this tiny town, my mother was, for the first time, surrounded by black people and uncomfortable. A young boy came to the door one day and wanted badly to wash her car. He just wanted to make a little money. My poor mother was deathly afraid of him. But, she learned, and she grew. She was loved by many of those same people when she passed, and they were welcomed into our house to grieve with us.


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## TheMartianChick (May 26, 2009)

Seth said:


> Martian, from your perspective, how racially insensitive have I been throughout this topic? Maybe I could use this as a learning experience. Seth


I've read a lot of posts in this topic and (to be honest) I'm not sure that I remember your posts specifically. Rather than single anyone out, I'd rather engage in a discussion about the topic. Conversations about how people feel on various sides of the issue are far more educational and productive than pointing fingers. I think that there has been enough of that.


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

So...we have gotten far, far away from the OP's subject, at least IMHO, which is that children should NOT be correcting their elder family members. I'm sure there are children out there that could do it in a respectful manner that encourages discussion, but, basically, what we have here is MO, in her unadulterated quote, telling kids to disrespect their elders.

Children may, and thankfully in more recent generations do, believe that their parents/grandparents/etc are wrong in their racist tendencies, but that does not give them permission or the right to correct them. It's more of this stupid and destructive tendency, nowadays, to let children rule the home when parents should be.

And, btw, I give way more leeway to old racists. I think it is wrong to force my modern day morals and opinions on them. In addition to being disrespectful, it also is a waste of time. It is only the very rare person who changes late in life what they were brought up on, particularly on this issue. 

When some elder family member goes all racist on me, I am polite but quickly change the subject. On the otherhand, if a child/younger family member says something insensitive or racist, I immediately correct them.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

FeralFemale said:


> So...we have gotten far, far away from the OP's subject, at least IMHO, which is that children should NOT be correcting their elder family members. I'm sure there are children out there that could do it in a respectful manner that encourages discussion, but, basically, what we have here is MO, in her unadulterated quote, telling kids to disrespect their elders.
> 
> Children may, and thankfully in more recent generations do, believe that their parents/grandparents/etc are wrong in their racist tendencies, but that does not give them permission or the right to correct them. It's more of this stupid and destructive tendency, nowadays, to let children rule the home when parents should be.
> 
> ...


I respectfully disagree. Would you tell a child to be quiet if one parent was abusing another child or berating them? It is not disrespectful to point out something that is wrong.


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

painterswife said:


> I respectfully disagree. Would you tell a child to be quiet if one parent was abusing another child or berating them? It is not disrespectful to point out something that is wrong.


We weren't talking about abuse. The topic is correcting elders when they say something racist.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

FeralFemale said:


> We weren't talking about abuse. The topic is correcting elders when they say something racist.


Same answer. Elders that are doing wrong should be corrected. Everyone is capable of change.


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Same answer. Elders that are doing wrong should be corrected. Everyone is capable of change.


No, it is not the same. You are equating someone being physically or mentally abused to someone expressing their opinion in their own home. It is not the same, no matter how you want to make it that way.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

FeralFemale said:


> No, it is not the same. You are equating someone being physically or mentally abused to someone expressing their opinion in their own home. It is not the same, no matter how you want to make it that way.


While my example does not work for you my answer is the same. Pointing out something is wrong is not disrespectful. How it is done may be.


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

painterswife said:


> While my example does not work for you my answer is the same. Pointing out something is wrong is not disrespectful. *How it is done may be*.


I agree, and I covered that in my first post.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

If being forced to listen quietly to someone tell racist or off color jokes, and or express like feelings and ideas is not mental abuse, Then I'm not sure what would be


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

We have raised our children to always stand up for what is right and we don't expect them to make exceptions for any bad behaviour we may exhibit in their presence. If other parents want to raise children with ambiguous morality I suppose that is their business, but it isn't our way of doing things.


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## FeralFemale (Apr 10, 2006)

mistletoad said:


> We have raised our children to always stand up for what is right and we don't expect them to make exceptions for any bad behaviour we may exhibit in their presence. If other parents want to raise children with ambiguous morality I suppose that is there business, but it isn't our way of doing things.


" ambiguous morality "???

One person's ambiguous morality is someone else's solid morality. Would you like a popular political figure telling your children what they may or may not do in your own home? That is the point.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Of course, the 1st lady wasn't speaking to children either, she was speaking to young men and women graduating high school. Kids this age have been correcting their elders for generations.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Tabitha said:


> you mean if it was not against the rules you would?


This is clearly baiting and not very subtle about it either


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Lisa and Patchouli, in rereading this topic, I see where you and I had a couple posts deleted for insulting one another. Just too clear this up, you have not insulted nor offended me. We just have differing views, and I can respect that. I hope that you have not taken personal offense to my posts. Seth


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Seth said:


> Lisa and Patchouli, in rereading this topic, I see where you and I had a couple posts deleted for insulting one another. Just too clear this up, you have not insulted nor offended me. We just have differing views, and I can respect that. I hope that you have not taken personal offense to my posts. Seth


Same here, I have no problem with our conversation at all.  I do not offend easily so no worries.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Me neither.


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## DAVID In Wisconsin (Dec 3, 2002)

painterswife said:


> Same answer. Elders that are doing wrong should be corrected. Everyone is capable of change.


In my world we never corrected our parents or grandparents. We didn't have to agree with them but to correct them would be disrespect able. I am 54 and would still never dream of correcting my mother.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

I am glad there is no one angry. Everyone has a right to their opinion. I guess in a perfect world I just hope that someday ALL people are treated FAIRLY. That includes red, yellow, black, white, gay, rich, poor, tall, thin, fat and all the rest. Probably just a dream but hey, who knows?


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

We try to teach tolerance and love in our home, and we don't tolerate rude actions or words against each other. Children are people too, and just because they're younger doesn't mean they're second class citizens. Parents and grandparents are NOT perfect, so if a child corrected me because I said something wrong or hurtful, I would be glad for the correction. The "rules" of niceness don't stop once you're "old enough". 

How can you expect to teach children love and understanding and tolerance when you don't practice it yourself?


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

In my family correcting your elders was not looked on kindly. Had an Aunt that would comment on white people along the lines that they were all crooks and trouble. She was not comfortable in any way with marrying outside our race, she thought it polluted the bloodlines.. Even as a kids we knew she was wrong but never corrected her. My parents talked to us about it when we asked. 

My Dad told me that people like her seem to blame others for their own problems instead of facing them, sometimes it is a race or gender, even a religion. It didn't matter it was just the easy way out. He always told us if you let someone's dumb comments effect your life than they would win. Move on and live your life knowing that you are a good person and not controlled by others problems, be strong.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

DAVID In Wisconsin said:


> In my world we never corrected our parents or grandparents. We didn't have to agree with them but to correct them would be disrespectable.


We did and we were encouraged to discuss what we thought was right and wrong. No one is to old to learn. I know they use to teach that you were to respect your elders but that enable a lot of abuse of all kind. Respect is earned, even by your elders.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

All this talk about correcting elders reminds me of the show All in the Family.. the son in law constantly putting down the father in law who allowed him to live under his roof, fed and supported him all the while being put down and insulted for his beliefs. Worse yet was when he was running his mouth between bites of the food he was enjoying for free! When the meathead was running his mouth I was always hoping Archie would put him on the road 

I was always taught to respect my elders to this day I would never argue with them. My kids where taught the same respect, if they wanted to speak to me or their father or grandparents about a touchy issue one on one no problem but if they had ever rudely corrected any of us at the dinner table they would have been told to leave the table. It's matter of showing respect.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

I don't know when pointing out that someone is wrong became disrespectful?

How you discuss it is a very different thing. Confusing the two seems to be the problem. Then again this thread and many of the interactions on this forum show that many can not differentiate between the two.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

painterswife said:


> I don't know when pointing out that someone is wrong became disrespectful?
> 
> How you discuss it is a very different thing. Confusing the two seems to be the problem. Then again this thread and many of the interactions on this forum show that many can not differentiate between the two.


 
imo a child correcting his elders and telling them they are wrong is very disrespectful, more so in front of others. I would have no problem with them bringing up the subject one on one with them at a later time.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

In my world, if someone is old enough to go across the seas and kill and die for freedom, they are long passed old enough to tell grandma that she is being a narrow minded twit and an embarrassment. It is then up to grandma how she handles the news.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I could care much less about what MO says compared to WHY is she doing/saying this.Everything this regime does is to get people arguing. More Hate and to separate us. There is no hearing what they say, watch what is going on and WHY. Not too hard to figure out if one looks at their past.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Who says speaking up about hate speech means yelling at a family member at a crowded dinner table?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Let's say grandpa goes on a racist rant at Sunday dinner. Should young Jill or Bobby sit there silently while thinking how can it be that their best friend, James, belongs to the same group grandpa is so roundly sure are worthless and not deserving of human dignity? What of Jill's parents who have had James at that very same table and found him to to be quite a nice young man? Since everyone else at the table is younger than grandpa should no one speak up to express disfavor at his words? After all, he is everyone's elder.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Let's say that grandpa goes on a rant about American soldiers being mindless pawns of a capitalist corpocracy used to secure the worlds natural resources.

I would hope that young minds and mouths in the room would also offer their perspective.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I considered putting "freedom" in quotation marks.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

I never understand why some feel that simple chronological advancement equates to some kind of superiority and a requirement that 'elders' be respected despite what foolishness might exit their mouths simply because they were born sooner.

Sorry, grandpa doesn't get a pass for being a jerk just because he was born longer ago.

If anything it's the opposite, he's had more time to learn better.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

A short story here and I promise no one is a victim here. My granddad is 97 years old. He is very old school. I have never known him to dislike anyone. We are all eating dinner one evening and he says to my granddaughter (age 7) and I quote, "I drove past the school today and saw you playing on the slide with that little black girl." Granddaughter and I quote, "hmmm, must have been _________ she has black hair." No putting in his place etc. she just see's a friend...nothing else. He meant nothing negative and skin color means nothing to her. Everyone is the same. 

When we worked at the home for disadvantage teens we lived with 11 teenage boys. We had red, yellow, black and white. They were all discriminated against in society. When we would go to the mall or to a movie or out to eat. These were good kids but since they were in the boys home they were a problem in people's minds. It didn't matter what color they were.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

Y'all have your opinion of how elders should be spoken to and I have mine. I never said you should think as I do. It was my understanding people wanted to hear different views on the subject and that's my view :shrug:


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

dixiegal62 said:


> Y'all have your opinion of how elders should be spoken to and I have mine. I never said you should think as I do. It was my understanding people wanted to hear different views on the subject and that's my view :shrug:


So if Dad said something offensive at the dinner table, and after dinner his son said, "Dad, it bothered me that you called my friend a _______ at dinner. I don't like it when you talk like that about my friend." That would be disrespectful to you?


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

dixiegal62 said:


> imo a child correcting his elders and telling them they are wrong is very disrespectful, more so in front of others. I would have no problem with them bringing up the subject one on one with them at a later time.


 
I think you have to remember that if you are in someone else's home you should respect them IMO. That said at our dinner table there was always lots of discussions. We were fine with the kids asking questions but they always did it respectfully and without finger pointing. It opened a lot of lines of communication and teaching moments. As far as at others homes....the kids waited until we got home to talk about something that bothered them. If it was a grandparents or great grandparents usually my DH and I would talk to that person after the fact and tell them how the kids felt. 90% of the time they hadn't even realized it had come off that way. 

All in the Family was definately a show of a changing time. I liked it. I didn't always agree with it but it definately dealt with a lot of subjects that were rough at the time.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

vicker said:


> In my world, if someone is old enough to go across the seas and kill and die for freedom, they are long passed old enough to tell grandma that she is being a narrow minded twit and an embarrassment. It is then up to grandma how she handles the news.


 
I agree but usually if they are mature enough to fight and die for our country they should have developed a level high enough to do it in a respectful and productive way. Just being rude back does nothing. Explaining why you feel the way you do does sometimes actually accomplish something.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

I don't think we have point out our elders faults, as that would be disrespectful; however, you can discuss and show an elder where they are wrong when it comes to matters like this. And it can be done in a manner that still shows them respect. 

Being an elder doesn't mean they have right to hateful talk, even if that is their opinion. No one does. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you get to say everything that pops into your head.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

MDKatie said:


> So if Dad said something offensive at the dinner table, and after dinner his son said, "Dad, it bothered me that you called my friend a _______ at dinner. I don't like it when you talk like that about my friend." That would be disrespectful to you?


 I think what you just said is not a disrespectful way to approach it. Most dad's would not be offended by that. It would make them think. It may not change them but it would make them stop and think.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

MDKatie said:


> So if Dad said something offensive at the dinner table, and after dinner his son said, "Dad, it bothered me that you called my friend a _______ at dinner. I don't like it when you talk like that about my friend." That would be disrespectful to you?


No and I mentioned a one on one talk with the elder in my post


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

grandma12703 said:


> A short story here and I promise no one is a victim here. My granddad is 97 years old. He is very old school. I have never known him to dislike anyone. We are all eating dinner one evening and he says to my granddaughter (age 7) and I quote, "I drove past the school today and saw you playing on the slide with that little black girl." Granddaughter and I quote, "hmmm, must have been _________ she has black hair." No putting in his place etc. she just see's a friend...nothing else. He meant nothing negative and skin color means nothing to her. Everyone is the same.
> 
> When we worked at the home for disadvantage teens we lived with 11 teenage boys. We had red, yellow, black and white. They were all discriminated against in society. When we would go to the mall or to a movie or out to eat. These were good kids but since they were in the boys home they were a problem in people's minds. It didn't matter what color they were.


I find your daughter's response delightful and appropriate. I also didn't find the grandfathers remark racist or disrespectful. Would your response , or hers, have been the same if grandad had loudly demanded why she was playing with that little ************* and didn't she have any white friends? All mentions of race aren't racist.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

My older sister and I were brought up in the same household. There's a 10 year difference in age and a 3 decade difference in attitude towards race between us. There are things she can say to me in a private conversation that I will just laugh off because it's not worth the drama. At the same time she quickly learned those same attitudes were not to be expressed in front of my daughter and she knows better than to express them around my grandson. Part of that learning process was calling her out in the middle of a family dinner at my house and leaving another at her house. I respect much of what my elder sister has done in her life, I don't respect some of her opinions.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

For me it boils down to showing respect. For example I would never correct my husband in front of others and he wouldn't me. Plenty of time to discuss what we disagree on later in private. Many disagree but personally I don't feel the need to point out to people who don't agree with me are wrong or that they must think and feel the way I do.

From what I've seen and heard from MO she doesn't seem like the type that would put up with her kids having the nerve to have a different opinion than hers. 

Many people use correcting others as a form of belittlement, a good example is online when others disagree with you and then correct your grammar or spelling.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> My older sister and I were brought up in the same household. There's a 10 year difference in age and a 3 decade difference in attitude towards race between us. There are things she can say to me in a private conversation that I will just laugh off because it's not worth the drama. At the same time she quickly learned those same attitudes were not to be expressed in front of my daughter and she knows better than to express them around my grandson. Part of that learning process was calling her out in the middle of a family dinner at my house and leaving another at her house. I respect much of what my elder sister has done in her life, I don't respect some of her opinions.


I agree. Somethings are so wrong that they need to be met head on at all times.


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

mmoetc said:


> I find your daughter's response delightful and appropriate. I also didn't find the grandfathers remark racist or disrespectful. Would your response , or hers, have been the same if grandad had loudly demanded why she was playing with that little ************* and didn't she have any white friends? All mentions of race aren't racist.


 
Agreed completely! I think that is where maybe my head is in the sand a bit because I don't have a family where that would have ever been said that way. I don't know many folks who would have said that. I do know, however that I did see discrimination in the boys home and it didn't matter the color. I also saw it with some exchange students depending what part of the world they were from. 

Maybe my take on "hatism" instead of "racism" comes in that it is hard for me to believe anyone could be intentionally that cruel without "hate" in their heart. After thinking on it all night long maybe I should have added "fear." A fear of difference. 

This is completely my opinion but I still think "racism" is an old word. Sure there are "racists" just as there are "elitists" but that is different to me. In today's World I see much more discrimination across economic lines than color lines. I could be wrong, like I said, perhaps growing up this was shielded from me but it is how I feel and it is what I have seen.

My granddaughter would have probably said the exact same thing. After dinner she would have asked her mom or I why papa said that? We would have explained and then I probably repectfully would have explained to him why he shouldn't say those things. It would have been done in a setting between he and I.


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## crazyfarm (Oct 29, 2013)

mmoetc said:


> Let's say grandpa goes on a racist rant at Sunday dinner. Should young Jill or Bobby sit there silently while thinking how can it be that their best friend, James, belongs to the same group grandpa is so roundly sure are worthless and not deserving of human dignity? What of Jill's parents who have had James at that very same table and found him to to be quite a nice young man? Since everyone else at the table is younger than grandpa should no one speak up to express disfavor at his words? After all, he is everyone's elder.


My fathers parents are blantant racists. One day they were over at my parents with us all and going on and on about Mexicans in a racist and derogatory way. I had a huge grin on my face and eventually grandma looked over and you could tell she was like, "Hell, that's the one who married a Mexican." Elbowed my grandpa and the silence was very awkward. Now that I have kids I'd kindly tell them to take their opinions and shove them because I don't want my kids thinking they are lower than anyone else just because of their heritage.


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## crazyfarm (Oct 29, 2013)

dixiegal62 said:


> For me it boils down to showing respect. For example I would never correct my husband in front of others and he wouldn't me. Plenty of time to discuss what we disagree on later in private. Many disagree but personally I don't feel the need to point out to people who don't agree with me are wrong or that they must think and feel the way I do.
> 
> From what I've seen and heard from MO she doesn't seem like the type that would put up with her kids having the nerve to have a different opinion than hers.
> 
> Many people use correcting others as a form of belittlement, a good example is online when others disagree with you and then correct your grammar or spelling.


Do you have children? Everything changes when you do. My kids are biracial and I won't tolerate anyone bashing 1/2 their race. That includes my husbands father who does say inappropriate things about whites on occasion. I have no problem speaking up in front of my kids and saying that's not ok and I'd appreciate it if things like that weren't said. They can then continue but I'll take my kids and leave. I don't want my kids feeling shame for who they are or wondering if the people speaking vile things are right. I will correct it right there and that's that.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

crazyfarm said:


> Do you have children? Everything changes when you do. My kids are biracial and I won't tolerate anyone bashing 1/2 their race. That includes my husbands father who does say inappropriate things about whites on occasion. I have no problem speaking up in front of my kids and saying that's not ok and I'd appreciate it if things like that weren't said. They can then continue but I'll take my kids and leave. I don't want my kids feeling shame for who they are or wondering if the people speaking vile things are right. I will correct it right there and that's that.


Yes 3 grown kids and 7 grandkids.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

7thswan said:


> I could care much less about what MO says compared to WHY is she doing/saying this.Everything this regime does is to get people arguing. More Hate and to separate us. There is no hearing what they say, watch what is going on and WHY. Not too hard to figure out if one looks at their past.


I don't understand why so many people can not just take her at her word and understand she cares about kids and families and America in general. It always leaves me scratching my head when she says something awesome or innocuous and then a certain crowd comes out screaming it is evil. Just makes them look absurd. The Obamas are doing absolutely nothing to spread hate and separate us. It is the factions who hate the Obamas who are doing all the hating. 

I mean honestly who thinks eat all your vegetables, get outside and play, stand up for what is right, don't spread prejudice, etc. are evil?


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

Patchouli said:


> I don't understand why so many people can not just take her at her word and understand she cares about kids and families and America in general. It always leaves me scratching my head when she says something awesome or innocuous and then a certain crowd comes out screaming it is evil. Just makes them look absurd. The Obamas are doing absolutely nothing to spread hate and separate us. It is the factions who hate the Obamas who are doing all the hating.
> 
> I mean honestly who thinks eat all your vegetables, get outside and play, stand up for what is right, don't spread prejudice, etc. are evil?


 
If she's worried about spreading prejudice she needs start at her own house with her own husband. That man loves creating racial division. They must not have any peace at the dinner table what with his girls having to point out his racist comments all the time.

Hilter was big on encouraging kids to grow big and strong, eat right, stand up for what he believed was right and to monitor what their parents said too. What next a toll free number to report in?


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

I snipped the racism problem in the bud with the in-laws. I let them know if they wanted to see their grandkids there would be no derogatory comments about people of other races period. They tried it once, we got up and walked out and they never tried it again. We never said one word either. They may have a right to say what they like in their house but I also have a right to not have to listen to it. 

Our kids were always allowed to speak up respectfully about anything they saw us doing that was wrong in their eyes. We would discuss it and sometimes it was a misunderstanding and sometimes we genuinely were wrong and we apologised and corrected it. I have no illusions that I am perfect due to my age. I would far rather be corrected and fix my mistake than have my kids sit in respectful silence all the while losing respect for me inside because of something I did or said.


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## DAVID In Wisconsin (Dec 3, 2002)

vicker said:


> In my world, if someone is old enough to go across the seas and kill and die for freedom, they are long passed old enough to tell grandma that she is being a narrow minded twit and an embarrassment. It is then up to grandma how she handles the news.


I cannot imagine calling my grandmother "a narrow minded twit and an embarrassment". And I think this approach would offend any person much less your own grandmother and I am fairly sure this wouldn't go very far in getting them to agree with your view of the world.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

Patchouli said:


> I snipped the racism problem in the bud with the in-laws. I let them know if they wanted to see their grandkids there would be no derogatory comments about people of other races period. They tried it once, we got up and walked out and they never tried it again. We never said one word either. They may have a right to say what they like in their house but I also have a right to not have to listen to it.
> 
> Our kids were always allowed to speak up respectfully about anything they saw us doing that was wrong in their eyes. We would discuss it and sometimes it was a misunderstanding and sometimes we genuinely were wrong and we apologised and corrected it. I have no illusions that I am perfect due to my age. I would far rather be corrected and fix my mistake than have my kids sit in respectful silence all the while losing respect for me inside because of something I did or said.


One of my daughter in laws tried played the old, "Do as I want you to or you won't see your grandkids" routine on me one time. I left her a message saying I'd miss the girls but she knew where we lived when she got ready to visit again.

I would never treat her so badly and expected the same out of her. Once she figured out I wouldn't be crawling and begging she came back around she missed me babysitting. No problems since


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

dixiegal62 said:


> One of my daughter in laws tried played the old, "Do as I want you to or you won't see your grandkids" routine on me one time. I left her a message saying I'd miss the girls but she knew where we lived when she got ready to visit again.
> 
> I would never treat her so badly and expected the same out of her. Once she figured out I wouldn't be crawling and begging she came back around she missed me babysitting. No problems since


I would presume that your DIL's problem with you was not that you were a flaming racist.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

Patchouli said:


> I would presume that your DIL's problem with you was not that you were a flaming racist.


You're right, it had nothing to do with race but it was over a comment I made that she took offense to


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

FeralFemale said:


> " ambiguous morality "???


Yes, ambiguous morality. The idea that something is bad but some people get a pass on doing it anyway. How is that not ambiguous?


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

painterswife said:


> I don't know when pointing out that someone is wrong became disrespectful?
> 
> How you discuss it is a very different thing. Confusing the two seems to be the problem. Then again this thread and many of the interactions on this forum show that many can not differentiate between the two.


Pointing out something is wrong most certainly can be disrespectful and rude. Unless you are doing so to prevent someone from embarrassing themselves (psst, zip up), getting hurt, or taking up for a moral issue like the racism issue being discussed here, just shut up. 

Ever been in a conversation where someone corrected another, for no good reason other than to be a know it all? Rude, boorish, disrespectful. And many of the posts in this thread are bordering on that, IMHO. It might actually be the intention to be helpful, but it's not coming across that way.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

dixiegal62 said:


> You're right, it had nothing to do with race but it was over a comment I made that she took offense to


In our case it was racial slurs constantly and with young children I did not want them picking up those words and then using them. The mindset was so vocal and pervasive it would have been hard for it not to become engrained in the little ones thinking. They still had plenty of opinions I disagreed with but they did clean up their vocabulary.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MO_cows said:


> Pointing out something is wrong most certainly can be disrespectful and rude. Unless you are doing so to prevent someone from embarrassing themselves (psst, zip up), getting hurt, or taking up for a moral issue like the racism issue being discussed here, just shut up.
> 
> Ever been in a conversation where someone corrected another, for no good reason other than to be a know it all? Rude, boorish, disrespectful. And many of the posts in this thread are bordering on that, IMHO. It might actually be the intention to be helpful, but it's not coming across that way.


That is a how. Not a why. IMO. I have made my best steps forward when someone said something to me the wrong way but had the guts to say it. I could not fault them for anything but the method of delivery.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Whatever works.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

mistletoad said:


> Yes, ambiguous morality. The idea that something is bad but some people get a pass on doing it anyway. How is that not ambiguous?


 
In society today I guess it depends on what your pointing out as bad. People who believe certain actions are sins and point it out are labeled as self righteous.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

To all what is the Freedom of speech mean to you? To me it means that everybody has the right to freedom of speech even if I disagree with not the PC crap that every body is in to today. The PC is undermining the freedom of speech. Any body that used the N word has the right under the constitution. Lets not forget that freedoms are lost every time we use the PC crap.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Old Vet said:


> To all what is the Freedom of speech mean to you? To me it means that everybody has the right to freedom of speech even if I disagree with not the PC crap that every body is in to today. The PC is undermining the freedom of speech. Any body that used the N word has the right under the constitution. Lets not forget that freedoms are lost every time we use the PC crap.


Yep, they have the freedom to say it, and others have a right to speak up about it. :happy2:


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

dixiegal62 said:


> If she's worried about spreading prejudice she needs start at her own house with her own husband. That man loves creating racial division. They must not have any peace at the dinner table what with his girls having to point out his racist comments all the time.
> 
> Hilter was big on encouraging kids to grow big and strong, eat right, stand up for what he believed was right and to monitor what their parents said too. What next a toll free number to report in?


Exactly. I've read too much about her and listened to her speeches to have have any respect for anything she says. It's all a calculated act.

as far as the Hitler regime you are right, I see the same kind of anger watching him speek:
âAn ominous new development within the HJ was the appearance of HJ-Streifendienst (Patrol Force) units functioning as internal political police, maintaining order at meetings, ferreting out disloyal members, and denouncing anyone who criticized Hitler or Nazism including, in a few cases, their own parents.â


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

dixiegal62 said:


> If she's worried about spreading prejudice she needs start at her own house with her own husband. That man loves creating racial division. They must not have any peace at the dinner table what with his girls having to point out his racist comments all the time.
> 
> Hilter was big on encouraging kids to grow big and strong, eat right, stand up for what he believed was right and to monitor what their parents said too. What next a toll free number to report in?


There is a vast difference between reality and seeing what you want to see. Some days I think half of America must live in an alternate universe.


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

Patchouli said:


> There is a vast difference between reality and seeing what you want to see. Some days I think half of America must live in an alternate universe.


 
Yes there is. It depends on which side your looking out of. Many thought Hitler was their savior others saw the devil. YMMV


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Old Vet said:


> To all what is the Freedom of speech mean to you? To me it means that everybody has the right to freedom of speech even if I disagree with not the PC crap that every body is in to today. The PC is undermining the freedom of speech. Any body that used the N word has the right under the constitution. Lets not forget that freedoms are lost every time we use the PC crap.


To me there's a difference between the right of freedom of speech and abuse of freedom of speech. Just because a person has the freedom to say whatever they want doesn't mean they should have the right to abuse their freedom of speech and say things that are harmful. 

People who abuse their rights over and over again will inevitably have their rights taken away from them by a higher authority. People who consistently abuse their right of free speech will inevitably have that right taken away from them too.

A few days ago while I was gardening in front of the senior citizens complex I heard a young woman (maybe early 30's) using guttersnipe language very loudly. Like every second word coming out of her mouth was effing this and effing that. I turned and looked, and this woman was pushing her grandmother (a sweet Victorian old lady in her late 90's that I know well and admire) in her wheelchair and the woman was directing her bad language at her grandma. Grandma was humiliated and objecting to grand-daughter's bad language, asking her to please not use that kind of language around her, and the grand-daughter said to her "I effing have effing freedom of speech so I'll effing say whatever I effing want whenever I effing want to!"

I stepped up and said to her "That is not freedom of speech. That is abuse of free speech, and furthermore it is verbal and mental abuse of a senior and I think maybe I should report you to the superintendant of the residence for verbally and mentally abusing your grandmother. I'm sure if they knew what you are doing they wouldn't want their client being taken out on an outing and being abused by a grandchild during the outing."

She told me to mind my own business and then she shut up when I told her that she had just made it my business by abusing her grandma in public. The next day grandma came out to the garden and said thank you for intervening and that her grand daughter had been more polite for the rest of the outing and apologized for her behaviour when she brought her back home. Personally I don't think the grand daughter apologized because she was genuinely feeling sorry, I think she apologized because she was afraid I'd report her bad behaviour and abuse and disrespect for her grandmother's wishes to not use such bad language to her.

There is no excuse for bad behaviour and you can be free to say whatever you want but abuse of freedom of speech is bad behaviour. It has nothing to do with what is or is not politically correct, it's just plain ignorant and ill mannered.

There was a time once when people got their mouthes washed out with soap for using abusive speech. What ever happened to those times?


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I figured I missed MO denouncing Marxism sometime in the near past. I'm working on an Elder Abuse case right now, so this subject is enlightening on how we should treat our Family and what should be being put into Graduation age adults heads.....


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## dixiegal62 (Aug 18, 2007)

Paumon said:


> To me there's a difference between the right of freedom of speech and abuse of freedom of speech. Just because a person has the freedom to say whatever they want doesn't mean they should have the right to abuse their freedom of speech and say things that are harmful.
> 
> People who abuse their rights over and over again will inevitably have their rights taken away from them by a higher authority. People who consistently abuse their right of free speech will inevitably have that right taken away from them too.
> 
> ...


 
Sounds like her parents didn't teach her to respect her elders and more as not taught her she had a right to say whatever was on her mind to whomever she wanted


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

It does, doesn't it?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

dixiegal62 said:


> Sounds like her parents didn't teach her to respect her elders and more as not taught her she had a right to say whatever was on her mind to whomever she wanted


No one should be treated like that, no matter what age. Would you have expected her not to tell the girl that if she was her elder? Don,t get it twisted.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

dixiegal62 said:


> Sounds like her parents didn't teach her to respect her elders and more as not taught her she had a right to say whatever was on her mind to whomever she wanted


Yep, sounds like she wasn't taught to be respectful and polite when saying what ever was on her mind to whomever she wanted.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

My mom, who could make a sailor blush when needed, always told me the use of negative words, curse words and so on indicated a lack of education and or good breeding. 
My mom grew up in a hooverville into a factory worker and she still knew how to act like a lady.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

Many times you have to show someone you respect them by letting them know when they have disappointed you. My dad used to respect the heck out of me, with a limb from the pear tree. I remember a long period when he respected me every darn day! It was the highest form of respect, and I respect him for it.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I saw a friend of mine's daddy backhand him in the mouth for questioning him. My friend was 25 years old at the time. That is not respect.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

That pear tree put out a lot of suckers. I'm thinking we had something of a symbiotic relationship.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Paumon said:


> To me there's a difference between the right of freedom of speech and abuse of freedom of speech. Just because a person has the freedom to say whatever they want doesn't mean they should have the right to abuse their freedom of speech and say things that are harmful.
> 
> People who abuse their rights over and over again will inevitably have their rights taken away from them by a higher authority. People who consistently abuse their right of free speech will inevitably have that right taken away from them too.


I understand Canada has statutes against what some consider "hate" speech, but thankfully the US does not. It's not the popular speech that needs protecting, it's the unpopular.

When you start down the road of deciding, sometimes arbitrarily, what is "proper" the only views you'll hear are the majority's. Much like someone voicing their objections to a lynch mob, speaking one's mind can be positive. Stifling unpopular opinions isn't just a slippery slope, it's a water slide.

You really should read Orwell's 1984.


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

painterswife said:


> Racism is hate based on color of skin or race. It exists and calling it something else does not make it anything less.


Actually, racism in America is dead. Just ask _anyone_.

The answer will _never_ be, "why yes, I am a racist".


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Paumon said:


> People who abuse their rights over and over again will inevitably have their rights taken away from them by a higher authority. People who consistently abuse their right of free speech will inevitably have that right taken away from them too.


Yes when God comes back he will take that away but no body else will without force. If you read the constitution that right is endowed by the creator not by the people or the government.


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## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

dixiegal62 said:


> Y'all have your opinion of how elders should be spoken to and I have mine. I never said you should think as I do. It was my understanding people wanted to hear different views on the subject and that's my view :shrug:


You must think like the hive
Resistance is futile................................................


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Ozarks Tom said:


> > Originally Posted by *Paumon*
> > _To me there's a difference between the right of freedom of speech and abuse of freedom of speech. Just because a person has the freedom to say whatever they want doesn't mean they should have the right to abuse their freedom of speech and say things that are harmful. _
> >
> > _People who abuse their rights over and over again will inevitably have their rights taken away from them by a higher authority. People who consistently abuse their right of free speech will inevitably have that right taken away from them too._
> ...


I stand by what I said. Freedom of speech should not mean one has the right to abuse their freedom of speech whereby it causes harm to others who are innocent. That includes abusing freedom of speech by telling harmful mistruths, by spreading misinformation or propaganda that harms others' reputations and livelihoods or causes innocent people to be victimized. There are long standing laws in your country and in my country against that kind of thing (read as slander and /or hate propoganda) but unfortunately with the advent of internet people have been abusing their freedom of speech to cause terrible harm to victims on internet and promoting genocide and suicide. 

One of the consequences of the several teen suicides that have recently occurred in Canada due to internet hate propoganda, bullying and victimizing has been for new laws to be enacted into the Canadian Criminal Code within the past year. I don't know if new laws have been introduced yet to the American Criminal Code because of internet abuse or if that will ever happen. America might not ever bother to do anything about it but Canada does want to protect the innocent from being victimized:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_Canada

_*Hate speech laws in Canada* include provisions in the __Criminal Code of Canada__, provisions in the Human Rights Act and in other federal legislation, and statutory provisions in each of Canada's ten provinces and three territories. The Criminal Code prohibits "hate propaganda." The __Canadian Human Rights Act__ prohibits discrimination on various grounds, and forbids the posting of hateful or contemptuous messages on the Internet................_

_..........Sections 318, 319, and 320 of the Code forbid hate propaganda. "Hate propaganda" means "any writing, sign or visible representation that advocates or promotes genocide or the communication of which by any person would constitute an offence under section 319."_


The bullets below are the fundamental freedoms stated in the statutes in our Constitution and Charter of Rights and Freedoms. There is nothing there about hate speech not being permitted in Canada. You can read all of the statutes at the following link, it is the whole thing:

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/Const/page-15.html#h-39 



A snip from our constitution, everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

(_a_) freedom of conscience and religion;
*(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;*
(_c_) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(_d_) freedom of association.
Those fundamental freedoms apply to everyone equally:

(1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Old Vet said:


> Yes when God comes back he will take that away but no body else will without force. If you read the constitution that right is endowed by the creator not by the people or the government.


Well, that's as good an excuse as any for people to exercise their right to be abusive, isn't it? Putting the onus on God and only God to pass judgement means that people who want to be abusive have free rein to be abusive and they have nothing to worry about from society until they die.

I am of the opinion that the people who object the most about the possibility of losing their right to be abusive of speech are the small and powerless people who take it for granted and already do it the most. They like to be abusive. They want to be abusive. Abuse of others makes them feel powerful in their smallness. They don't want to have that taken away from them and so they'll say that God gave them the right to be abusive and only God can take it away. In my opinion putting it all on God is a cop out for evil minded people who know they are toxic and have a poisoning of mind.

I guess in some places there's not much you can do about people like that except let them continue being toxic.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

MDKatie said:


> Yep, sounds like she wasn't taught to be respectful and polite when saying what ever was on her mind to whomever she wanted.


I think that one grand daughter was a bad apple who had a problem regarding comprehension of personal rights and respect of others that had nothing to do with how she was taught or raised by her family. I've met the grandmother's sons and daughters (including the mother of that abusive young woman) and some of the other grandchildren and great grandchildren. They are kind and loving, respectable people of good conscience, (just like the grandma) attentive and respectful of the grandma and have provided her with a high end seniors residence where she is happy and all her special medical and dietary needs are met. None of them have struck me as the type of people who weren't well raised within that family. But any good family might produce a bad apple or two through no fault of the family, eh?


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Paumon said:


> Well, that's as good an excuse as any for people to exercise their right to be abusive, isn't it? Putting the onus on God and only God to pass judgement means that people who want to be abusive have free rein to be abusive and they have nothing to worry about from society until they die.
> 
> I am of the opinion that the people who object the most about the possibility of losing their right to be abusive of speech are the small and powerless people who take it for granted and already do it the most. They like to be abusive. They want to be abusive. Abuse of others makes them feel powerful in their smallness. They don't want to have that taken away from them and so they'll say that God gave them the right to be abusive and only God can take it away. In my opinion putting it all on God is a cop out for evil minded people who know they are toxic and have a poisoning of mind.
> 
> I guess in some places there's not much you can do about people like that except let them continue being toxic.


No not really all you need to do is to stick with the truth and justice. If you have a complaint then air it in the open not behind their backs. As you are doing now making up what I said and not understanding what I really said. Who gets to decide what is OK to say and what is not? Not the Government or the people around some campfire. Every body needs to have respect for other person. In the case you posted about you should have made it very clear to that person that their language will not be spoken around you or to the older lady and back that up with conviction and maybe some thing about what might happen if they persist. I may not agree with any body but I will defend their rights to say just about anything but I will fight for my rights also. You can give up any right you want to but do not give up my rights in the process.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Old Vet said:


> No not really all you need to do is to stick with the truth and justice. If you have a complaint then air it in the open not behind their backs. *As you are doing now making up what I said and not understanding what I really said.* Who gets to decide what is OK to say and what is not? Not the Government or the people around some campfire. *Every body needs to have respect for other person.* In the case you posted about you should have made it very clear to that person that their language will not be spoken around you or to the older lady and back that up with conviction and maybe some thing about what might happen if they persist. I may not agree with any body but I will defend their rights to say just about anything but I will fight for my rights also. You can give up any right you want to but do not give up my rights in the process.


I understood what you were saying. You said _"If you read the constitution that right is endowed by the creator not by the people or the government."_ I understood that, and I understand that you believe that is the truth. But I don't agree with it because I don't believe that is the truth, it's just a presumption (because God has never endowed anyone with any rights and nobody can disprove that) and I think it's presumptuous of men for it to be written into any constitution as if they think they know what's on God's mind. 

But that's just a difference between you and me in our respective beliefs about what people want to believe God has endowed them with. And of course everyone has a right to believe whatever they want to about God, whether it's true or not. I do believe many people use their so-called God-given rights as an excuse and justification for behaving badly. 

But I do agree with you that everybody needs to have respect for other persons. Which brings us back to whether or not we should be more respectful about what we say about other people to our children, and whether or not it's okay for our children to correct adults when they observe adults being disrespectful, racist and bigoted towards other people.


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## Guest (May 22, 2014)

plowjockey said:


> Actually, racism in America is dead. Just ask _anyone_.
> 
> The answer will _never_ be, "why yes, I am a racist".


This post hits the nail on the head .


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## Scott SW Ohio (Sep 20, 2003)

I have been reading this thread and the opinions on children respecting their elders with interest. I guess I qualify as an elder now, and I always have considered myself pretty broadminded but things do change over time. My daughter Annie is an outspoken kid who is not afraid to challenge my beliefs, and in the process has helped me to update and refine my worldview. Every time she calls me out on something I thank her. Of course not all of you would agree, but to me this penchant of Annie's for saying "I can't believe you just said that" or "are you listening to yourself?" and then sharing her insight is a very direct expression of her love and respect for me, and I am grateful that she cares enough to speak out.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Paumon said:


> I stand by what I said. Freedom of speech should not mean one has the right to abuse their freedom of speech whereby it causes harm to others who are innocent. That includes abusing freedom of speech by telling harmful mistruths, by spreading misinformation or propaganda that harms others' reputations and livelihoods or causes innocent people to be victimized. There are long standing laws in your country and in my country against that kind of thing (read as slander and /or hate propoganda) but unfortunately with the advent of internet people have been abusing their freedom of speech to cause terrible harm to victims on internet and promoting genocide and suicide.
> 
> One of the consequences of the several teen suicides that have recently occurred in Canada due to internet hate propoganda, bullying and victimizing has been for new laws to be enacted into the Canadian Criminal Code within the past year. I don't know if new laws have been introduced yet to the American Criminal Code because of internet abuse or if that will ever happen. America might not ever bother to do anything about it but Canada does want to protect the innocent from being victimized:
> 
> ...


Sorry, you can't have it both ways. I bolded your statute regarding unlawful speech, to go along with your citing of your Constitution. They're not quite the same, are they? Either you have free speech, or you have laws punishing it, not both.

Just who gets to decide what's "proper"? You? Or maybe a panel of bureaucrats? How about the Academics? Most likely politicians pandering to the majority for votes. You can be sure whoever it is they'll have _nearly_ everyone's best interests in mind.

Old Vet was correct, if not necessarily precise. Our Constitution acknowledges our rights come from God, not the government. The government's duty under the Constitution is to protect those God given rights, not inhibit them (at least that was their initial purpose).

See, the problem is the natural bent for people wanting to control others. I guess it's sort of a liberal thing. What could be more injurious to society than restricting spoken/written thought? Our founders committed treason in voicing their objection to tyranny, setting a fine example for a country based on freedom of the individual. It's a shame Canada didn't follow their lead.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Seth said:


> Truth is a fickle thing, there is more than one. Mostly it depends on popularity and perspective. Seth




Just thought I'd say it again. Seth


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Old Vet said:


> Yes when God comes back he will take that away but no body else will without force. If you read the constitution that right is endowed by the creator not by the people or the government.


I am sorry but the God of the bible most assuredly did not give us anything approaching freedom of speech. I seem to remember a quite a few laws involving death for saying things that were not allowed.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> I am sorry but the God of the bible most assuredly did not give us anything approaching freedom of speech. I seem to remember a quite a few laws involving death for saying things that were not allowed.


I never said God was the creator. In some cases you could say that nature is the creator. But to each his own on that. But God of the bible will come back one day and only the faithful will see it. Yes their are things that I would never say because of my faith will not allow it.


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Sorry, you can't have it both ways. I bolded your statute regarding unlawful speech, to go along with your citing of your Constitution. They're not quite the same, are they? Either you have free speech, or you have laws punishing it, not both.
> 
> *Just who gets to decide what's "proper"?* You? Or maybe a panel of bureaucrats? How about the Academics? Most likely politicians pandering to the majority for votes. You can be sure whoever it is they'll have _nearly_ everyone's best interests in mind.
> 
> ...


Our constitution recognizes that God and the rule of law are supreme.

Who decided what is proper and what is injurious and what our rights, laws and demands are? It's the people who decided, that's who, and it's our judicial systems and our multiple governments that uphold the people's decisions. Canadians determined their own rights and don't believe in all that other impractical nonsense about God-given rights.

Shame ?? Certainly no shame for Canada. That's just your opinion coming from a different perspective but the only perspective that is important to Canada is the Canadian perspective, nobody else's. Canada never felt the need to follow America's lead and commit treason because Canada never experienced or even imagined any tyranny. Canada made a point of violently rejecting America's attempts to forcefully "persuade" Canada to see things from the American perspective and since you say it's a shame Canada didn't follow America's lead I guess that rejection is still sticking in some people's craws after all this time.

It's all good though. Well, all good for happy, laid back Canada at least. I don't hear people here constantly complaining or being permanently split by schism forever so I guess we must be doing something right.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

This is getting boring. Can we get back to bashing the 1st lady?


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## crazyfarm (Oct 29, 2013)

A lot of this forum is made of Americans. You don't hear them constantly complaining do you? I reject your assumption that the majority of Americans are bitter, unhappy, complainers. Canada is not superior in that. I'm sure there are just as many cranky people there as here, we just broadcast ours more. Makes better TV.



Paumon said:


> Our constitution recognizes that God and the rule of law are supreme.
> 
> Who decided what is proper and what is injurious and what our rights, laws and demands are? It's the people who decided, that's who, and it's our judicial systems and our multiple governments that uphold the people's decisions. Canadians determined their own rights and don't believe in all that other impractical nonsense about God-given rights.
> 
> ...


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

crazyfarm said:


> A lot of this forum is made of Americans. You don't hear them constantly complaining do you?


Uh, yeah.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Paumon said:


> It's all good though. Well, all good for happy, laid back Canada at least. *I don't hear people here constantly complaining *or being permanently split by schism forever so I guess we must be doing something right.


Of course not, you've got laws against it!


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

crazyfarm said:


> A lot of this forum is made of Americans. You don't hear them constantly complaining do you? I reject your assumption that the majority of Americans are bitter, unhappy, complainers. Canada is not superior in that. I'm sure there are just as many cranky people there as here, we just broadcast ours more. Makes better TV.


Canada is neither superior nor inferior to America and if an American on this forum had not decided to include Canada into this discussion to criticize and bash about then a comparison of the freedom of expression and state of mind and happiness of Canadians would not even be up for consideration. I don't know why he felt the need to bring Canada into the conversation to criticize but it happens often around here so I have to conclude there is some deep seated resentment towards Canada for some reason. Being a loyal Canadian I can't find it within myself to just stand by and ignore it when some resentful American decides it's time to pick on Canada for some misconceived reason again so I'll defend my country to the death. But I can assure you that Canada has nowhere near as many cranky complainers and malcontents as America apparently has if this forum and other American media and websites are anything to go by.

The MAJORITY of this forum is made up of Americans and the majority of the topics that get posted are complaints and criticisms of something that somebody resents or is deeply unhappy about. Honestly. The majority. Go do a review of the topic titles. Like this topic for example .... just another topic to exercise freedom of speech to bash your First Lady because she advised young adults to not be racists and to try to nip it in the bud with other people. Really, how is her reasonable advice deserving of complaint and resentment? It wasn't. Somebody's hate-filled websites just used that as a lame excuse to express their hatred of the First Lady and somebody else carried the criticism and hatred over to this forum so the hatred could be passed on. 

Maybe you're so used to it that you just don't notice the American discontent is second nature but seriously, to people in most other countries when they're talking about America their foremost impression is of a nation of unhappy and divided people who have been unhappy and divided and always at war or some kind of conflict with _somebody somewhere_, even with each other, perpetually ever since the nation's settlement. Think about it, examine the history and you'll see it's the truth. That's over 400 years of discontent and conflict and I guess that can become bred in the bone second nature without the people thinking anything of it. But other people around the world do notice it and find it to be of concern.


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## Scott SW Ohio (Sep 20, 2003)

Paumon, I think internet forums everywhere tend to concentrate the discontented, unfortunately. I don't know if you are in personal contact with many Americans, but most people I know here in the USA are positive, optimistic and fair-minded - just like the Canadians I know.


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## crazyfarm (Oct 29, 2013)

I suppose you are correct if you are only looking in this group. I was referencing the entire forum as a whole and I haven't seen much complaining outside of this group. Just people talking life and animals. I felt you had attacked MY country and like you I would defend her. I'm happy here. My family is happy here. Most people are that I know. Fear and hate are just broadcast on our news stations. Honestly part of the reason I don't have cable. Nothing there I want to see.



Paumon said:


> Canada is neither superior nor inferior to America and if an American on this forum had not decided to include Canada into this discussion to criticize and bash about then a comparison of the freedom of expression and state of mind and happiness of Canadians would not even be up for consideration. I don't know why he felt the need to bring Canada into the conversation to criticize but it happens often around here so I have to conclude there is some deep seated resentment towards Canada for some reason. Being a loyal Canadian I can't find it within myself to just stand by and ignore it when some resentful American decides it's time to pick on Canada for some misconceived reason again so I'll defend my country to the death. But I can assure you that Canada has nowhere near as many cranky complainers and malcontents as America apparently has if this forum and other American media and websites are anything to go by.
> 
> The MAJORITY of this forum is made up of Americans and the majority of the topics that get posted are complaints and criticisms of something that somebody resents or is deeply unhappy about. Honestly. The majority. Go do a review of the topic titles. Like this topic for example .... just another topic to exercise freedom of speech to bash your First Lady because she advised young adults to not be racists and to try to nip it in the bud with other people. Really, how is her reasonable advice deserving of complaint and resentment? It wasn't. Somebody's hate-filled websites just used that as a lame excuse to express their hatred of the First Lady and somebody else carried the criticism and hatred over to this forum so the hatred could be passed on.
> 
> Maybe you're so used to it that you just don't notice the American discontent is second nature but seriously, to people in most other countries when they're talking about America their foremost impression is of a nation of unhappy and divided people who have been unhappy and divided and always at war or some kind of conflict with _somebody somewhere_, even with each other, perpetually ever since the nation's settlement. Think about it, examine the history and you'll see it's the truth. That's over 400 years of discontent and conflict and I guess that can become bred in the bone second nature without the people thinking anything of it. But other people around the world do notice it and find it to be of concern.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

crazyfarm said:


> A lot of this forum is made of Americans. You don't hear them constantly complaining do you? I reject your assumption that the majority of Americans are bitter, unhappy, complainers. Canada is not superior in that. I'm sure there are just as many cranky people there as here, we just broadcast ours more. Makes better TV.


Uh yeah they are constantly complaining right here on this forum! This is GC isn't it? Take a wander up to Politics if you think there aren't a ton of complainers here.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Paumon said:


> Canada is neither superior nor inferior to America and if an American on this forum had not decided to include Canada into this discussion to criticize and bash about then a comparison of the freedom of expression and state of mind and happiness of Canadians would not even be up for consideration. I don't know why he felt the need to bring Canada into the conversation to criticize but it happens often around here so I have to conclude there is some deep seated resentment towards Canada for some reason. Being a loyal Canadian I can't find it within myself to just stand by and ignore it when some resentful American decides it's time to pick on Canada for some misconceived reason again so I'll defend my country to the death. But I can assure you that Canada has nowhere near as many cranky complainers and malcontents as America apparently has if this forum and other American media and websites are anything to go by.
> 
> The MAJORITY of this forum is made up of Americans and the majority of the topics that get posted are complaints and criticisms of something that somebody resents or is deeply unhappy about. Honestly. The majority. Go do a review of the topic titles. Like this topic for example .... just another topic to exercise freedom of speech to bash your First Lady because she advised young adults to not be racists and to try to nip it in the bud with other people. Really, how is her reasonable advice deserving of complaint and resentment? It wasn't. Somebody's hate-filled websites just used that as a lame excuse to express their hatred of the First Lady and somebody else carried the criticism and hatred over to this forum so the hatred could be passed on.
> 
> Maybe you're so used to it that you just don't notice the American discontent is second nature but seriously, to people in most other countries when they're talking about America their foremost impression is of a nation of unhappy and divided people who have been unhappy and divided and always at war or some kind of conflict with _somebody somewhere_, even with each other, perpetually ever since the nation's settlement. Think about it, examine the history and you'll see it's the truth. That's over 400 years of discontent and conflict and I guess that can become bred in the bone second nature without the people thinking anything of it. But other people around the world do notice it and find it to be of concern.


Maybe the problem stems from the fact you're not used to hearing open dissension, and that's why you see us as "cranky" and "complainers", "always at war", and with a "history of discontent". The very fact you can state these somewhat "hateful" comments on this site is due to our freedom of expression in this country. If you wrote a letter to your local paper referring to a group in those disparaging terms you'd most likely find yourself in front of one of your many tribunals. 

Being corrected by someone from another country in a discussion about our internal politics and political figures is sort of like a neighbor intruding on a family argument. Not always welcome.

It amuses me when someone says "you can have an opinion, you just can't communicate it". I'm extremely proud and happy our country hasn't allowed a tyranny of the majority to take hold (yet).


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

OT - All you're doing is digging a hole deeper and deeper for yourself showing how insular and poorly informed you are about anything outside of your own little bubble. Maybe you should quit before you dig your hole so deep you can't get out?


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Maybe the problem stems from the fact you're not used to hearing open dissension, and that's why you see us as "cranky" and "complainers", "always at war", and with a "history of discontent". The very fact you can state these somewhat "hateful" comments on this site is due to our freedom of expression in this country. *If you wrote a letter to your local paper referring to a group in those disparaging terms you'd most likely find yourself in front of one of your many tribunals. *
> 
> Being corrected by someone from another country in a discussion about our internal politics and political figures is sort of like a neighbor intruding on a family argument. Not always welcome.
> 
> It amuses me when someone says "you can have an opinion, you just can't communicate it". I'm extremely proud and happy our country hasn't allowed a tyranny of the majority to take hold (yet).


Canadian media does the same thing as American media - people can write letters to the local newspapers or they can go online to the comments sections where readers from anywhere in the world can write in to comment about articles and current events. They can say whatever they want just like Americans do. What's not permitted is foul language or hate propaganda that promotes genocide.

Then there's very open Canadian forums just like HT and other American forums. There are Americans and people from other countries who are more than welcome to join and say what they want on the Canadian public forums and other websites. The Canadians don't get their knickers all in a twist about it when foreigners offer their opinions and get blunt about it but they will call BS when they see it. 

You might find this one below informs and corrects your misconceptions about free speech in Canada. There are lots of topics about American goings-on and news events as well as Canadian and international topics. Nobody has had to go before any of the mysterious Canadian tribunals that you have been imagining because of speaking their minds honestly and bluntly.

Fill your boots Tom and you're welcome to join there too and speak up.

http://www.canadaka.net/forums/scroll


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Interesting, y'all might have missed this:

_Steyn, at the moment, is effectively being tried, by a quasi-judicial panel in Vancouver, for insulting Islam._
_Normally, that's the sort of proceeding you'd expect to hear about in Saudi Arabia or Iran, not the West. But the British Columbia Human Rights Commission, in the cause of protecting minorities, asserts its right to judge and even restrict speech._
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/free-speech-eh-why-is-canada-prosecuting-mark-steyn-1.720445


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## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Interesting, y'all might have missed this:
> 
> _Steyn, at the moment, is effectively being tried, by a quasi-judicial panel in Vancouver, for insulting Islam._
> _Normally, that's the sort of proceeding you'd expect to hear about in Saudi Arabia or Iran, not the West. But the British Columbia Human Rights Commission, in the cause of protecting minorities, asserts its right to judge and even restrict speech._
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/free-speech-eh-why-is-canada-prosecuting-mark-steyn-1.720445


That's really old news and the entire case was thrown out of court 6 years ago. :bored: 

Steyn should be taken with a pinch of salt. He's a first class bigot and hate monger of the highest order, a hard-core right wing extremist fanatic and a betrayer of Canada, America, Britain and Europe. As a Canadian he's a real disappointment and Canada is ashamed of him. 



Ozarks Tom said:


> Being corrected by someone from another country in a discussion about our internal politics and political figures is sort of like a neighbor intruding on a family argument. Not always welcome.


You still don't get it, do you? Canada and America are family, not just neighbours. They're best friends and kissing cousins that were both engendered from the same family tree, married, joined at the hip and sleeping in the same bed. They're spouses that are dependent on each other and have been interfering, co-operating, correcting each other and making decisions together for decades. They're the only 2 countries in the world that have the unique partnership and alliance that exists between them and neither one can exist without the other. 

Where were you when the marriage vows were said and the contract signed and sealed - were you asleep at the back of the church and missed the entire wedding ceremony?

You may as well accept it and get used to it like the rest of the world has my friend because whether you like it or not we're stuck with each other and this is one marriage where there is no such thing as divorce.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Maybe the problem stems from the fact you're not used to hearing open dissension, and that's why you see us as "cranky" and "complainers", "always at war", and with a "history of discontent". The very fact you can state these somewhat "hateful" comments on this site is due to our freedom of expression in this country. If you wrote a letter to your local paper referring to a group in those disparaging terms you'd most likely find yourself in front of one of your many tribunals.
> 
> Being corrected by someone from another country in a discussion about our internal politics and political figures is sort of like a neighbor intruding on a family argument. Not always welcome.
> 
> It amuses me when someone says "you can have an opinion, you just can't communicate it". I'm extremely proud and happy our country hasn't allowed a tyranny of the majority to take hold (yet).


I have been to Canada several times and people there are far more polite than they are here. Never been hauled up before any tribunals either. If you want to see the biggest proof though that Americans are far ruder than our northern cousins just look at the reactions anytime some poor Canadian right here on this forum dares to raise an opinion on America. The Americans attack them quite nastily. 

And if you truly think most of America's history has not been a never ending "tyranny of the majority" I would invite you to crack out a good history book.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Paumon said:


> *That's really old news and the entire case was thrown out of court 6 years ago. *:bored:
> 
> Steyn should be taken with a pinch of salt. He's a first class bigot and hate monger of the highest order, a hard-core right wing extremist fanatic and a betrayer of Canada, America, Britain and Europe. As a Canadian he's a real disappointment and Canada is ashamed of him.


To paraphrase the bolded words: Dude, that was 6 years ago! The reason for the link was to point out what has been so artfully avoided (in another's post denied), and that would be Canada does indeed have tribunals for "hate" speech.

Speaking of hate speech, how would you define the rest of your words above?

Gee, it's fun arguing with liberals.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Paumon said:


> You still don't get it, do you? *Canada and America are family, not just neighbours.* They're best friends and kissing cousins that were both engendered from the same family tree, married, joined at the hip and sleeping in the same bed. They're spouses that are dependent on each other and have been interfering, co-operating, correcting each other and making decisions together for decades. They're the only 2 countries in the world that have the unique partnership and alliance that exists between them and *neither one can exist without the other. *
> 
> Where were you when the marriage vows were said and the contract signed and sealed - were you asleep at the back of the church and missed the entire wedding ceremony?
> 
> You may as well accept it and get used to it like the rest of the world has my friend because whether you like it or not we're stuck with each other and this is one marriage where there is no such thing as divorce.


Your first bolded words could be twisted into a reference to the Crazy Uncle in the attic the family would prefer not to mention.

Your second bolded words seem to assume Canada has something vital to the US, an assumption based more in national pride than reality. With a population roughly equivalent to California, it's hardly the lynchpin to our survival.

Not to be trite, but one of my best friends is Canadian (been here 14 years), but when he starts talking about politics or healthcare, I tune him out.


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## Ozarks Tom (May 27, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> I have been to Canada several times and people there are far more polite than they are here. Never been hauled up before any tribunals either. If you want to see the biggest proof though that Americans are far ruder than our northern cousins just look at the reactions anytime some poor Canadian right here on this forum dares to raise an opinion on America. The Americans attack them quite nastily.
> 
> And if you truly think most of America's history has not been a never ending "tyranny of the majority" I would invite you to crack out a good history book.


Of course you've never been before a "hate speech" tribunal, they're only for those who offend a protected specie.

I agree Americans are "far ruder than our northern cousins", there aren't laws against it.

Our government has indeed strayed considerably from it's origin in the Constitution over time, but someone can still burn the flag, and the KKK can still parade down the street (both of which I find disgusting, but wouldn't forbid). We're currently suffering under the tyranny of the minority, and in some cases those minorities come together, giving us disastrous results - i.e. obama & co.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Of course you've never been before a "hate speech" tribunal, they're only for those who offend a protected specie.
> 
> I agree Americans are "far ruder than our northern cousins", there aren't laws against it.
> 
> Our government has indeed strayed considerably from it's origin in the Constitution over time, but someone can still burn the flag, and the KKK can still parade down the street (both of which I find disgusting, but wouldn't forbid). We're currently suffering under the tyranny of the minority, and in some cases those minorities come together, giving us disastrous results - i.e. obama & co.


Maybe that is the true difference between Canadians and us: they are just raised to be polite and we are obviously not. You have already taken your attacks on Paumon into the personal and insulting realm. It has nothing to do with laws, I don't need a law to make me treat my fellow man with dignity and respect. 

As for tyranny of the majority in our history I think you missed my point. Tyranny of whites over blacks and other ethnicities and races. Tyranny of the US over Native Americans. Tyranny of men over women and children. Tyranny of heterosexuals over LGBTs. Tyranny of Christians over other religions. The list is long and sad.


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## Seth (Dec 3, 2012)

Patchouli said:


> Maybe that is the true difference between Canadians and us: they are just raised to be polite and we are obviously not. You have already taken your attacks on Paumon into the personal and insulting realm. It has nothing to do with laws, I don't need a law to make me treat my fellow man with dignity and respect.
> 
> As for tyranny of the majority in our history I think you missed my point. Tyranny of whites over blacks and other ethnicities and races. Tyranny of the US over Native Americans. Tyranny of men over women and children. Tyranny of heterosexuals over LGBTs. Tyranny of Christians over other religions. The list is long and sad.


While I wholeheartedly agree with this, I must point out that tyranny has been the rule rather than the exception for the history of the world. It will always be, the names/groups will change, but tyranny is here forever. It's human nature of the highest order.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Seth said:


> While I wholeheartedly agree with this, I must point out that tyranny has been the rule rather than the exception for the history of the world. It will always be, the names/groups will change, but tyranny is here forever. It's human nature of the highest order.


I agree.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Ozarks Tom said:


> Of course you've never been before a "hate speech" tribunal, they're only for those who offend a protected specie.
> 
> I agree Americans are "far ruder than our northern cousins", there aren't laws against it.



Have you recently offended a specie and been before a Canadian hate speech tribunal? 

It would be quite helpful if you would share your experiences with the rest of us.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Cornhusker said:


> Nah, I never met her.
> Lots of people in public service I don't like, and never met a one.
> Heck, as hard as it is to believe, some people don't like GW Bush, and I'm pretty sure the never met him.
> Same with Palin, Cheney, Simon Cowell, and Peewee Herman


Right ya are.
But I'm still trying to get past her not being proud of her country. Among other things like fleecing the country she's not proud of for 'bout a billion in vacations etc.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Cornhusker said:


> You don't remember the lefties saying Coulter was a transvestite?
> Must be racists who were saying that
> Remember when the lefties said Palin's son was actually her grandson and sent someone to live next door and make up stories?
> Must have been racially motivated
> ...












I also remember that darling baby being called all sorts of names by the left...b/c of course he's Down's Syndrome. As well as "her ____ fruit". Nice.
Don't know how anyone can belong to that party.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

MJsLady said:


> It is no ones business what is said in my home.
> I do still have the right to say what I please.
> I also have the right to dislike who or what I please.
> If others find me offensive they have the right to stay away from me.
> ...


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

WV Hillbilly said:


> I formed an immediate dislike for her when she stated for the first time in her life she was proud to be an American .


Amen.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> Let's say grandpa goes on a racist rant at Sunday dinner. Should young Jill or Bobby sit there silently while thinking how can it be that their best friend, James, belongs to the same group grandpa is so roundly sure are worthless and not deserving of human dignity? What of Jill's parents who have had James at that very same table and found him to to be quite a nice young man? Since everyone else at the table is younger than grandpa should no one speak up to express disfavor at his words? After all, he is everyone's elder.


Since the 1st lady was talking about kids, I'm thinking she means...kids. It would be up to the older family members to say something to the g'pa. Just MHO.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

Yeah, that is generally the way it is handled in our family. We have a couple that really, really don't like white people, when they start up their rants the adults put a stop to it. Chain of command in effect here.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Which issue is that? Objecting to *off-color* comments or jokes or just disliking Michelle Obama?


This comment sounds somewhat racist to me.... cant you even construct a simple sentence without bringing color into it? Oh, and exactly which color would be "off" in your opinion?


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Tricky Grama said:


> I also remember that darling baby being called all sorts of names by the left...b/c of course he's Down's Syndrome. As well as "her ____ fruit". Nice.
> Don't know how anyone can belong to that party.


I remember the repubs saying there was a new "dog" in the Whitehouse when Clinton was elected...of course they were talking about 13 year old Chelsea. Shame on them, too.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Ambereyes said:


> Yeah, that is generally the way it is handled in our family. We have a couple that really, really don't like white people, when they start up their rants the adults put a stop to it. Chain of command in effect here.


And when the chain of command breaks down or the commanders share the views no one in the ranks should speak up?


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## crazyfarm (Oct 29, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> I have been to Canada several times and *people there are far more polite than they are here*. Never been hauled up before any tribunals either. If you want to see the biggest proof though that Americans are far ruder than our northern cousins just look at the reactions anytime some poor Canadian right here on this forum dares to raise an opinion on America. The Americans attack them quite nastily.
> 
> And if you truly think most of America's history has not been a never ending "tyranny of the majority" I would invite you to crack out a good history book.


I think the bolded statement depends on where you live. Many, many people come to my state in July and always leave messages about how wonderful and polite we are.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> And when the chain of command breaks down or the commanders share the views no one in the ranks should speak up?



Doesn't happen, but than again our family is pretty strong, including the kids. We talk, we discuss and we teach.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Ambereyes said:


> Doesn't happen, but than again our family is pretty strong, including the kids. We talk, we discuss and we teach.


You also made us use reasoning.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Ambereyes said:


> Doesn't happen, but than again our family is pretty strong, including the kids. We talk, we discuss and we teach.


I'm glad for you that it works that way. If I felt like being argumentative I might ask what happens if the kids come to a different conclusion than you even after discussion? Are they still allowed to freely express those contrary opinions or does the top of the chain still have final say?


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> I'm glad for you that it works that way. If I felt like being argumentative I might ask what happens if the kids come to a different conclusion than you even after discussion? Are they still allowed to freely express those contrary opinions or does the top of the chain still have final say?


That question would not be argumentative in my world.. LOL, when we discuss things in my family they are discussed without tip toeing around. 

As to the kids coming to a different conclusion, they are free to do so, unless it is dangerous or illegal. And they can have an opinion, but they have to realize that not all will agree with it. That is itself is a life lesson.

I have always felt that consequences for actions can be the best teachers. We can all learn from them, no matter the age.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Tricky Grama said:


> I also remember that darling baby being called all sorts of names by the left...b/c of course he's Down's Syndrome. As well as "her ____ fruit". Nice.
> Don't know how anyone can belong to that party.


You must not have a political party then since all of them can be hateful.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Ambereyes said:


> That question would not be argumentative in my world.. LOL, when we discuss things in my family they are discussed without tip toeing around.
> 
> As to the kids coming to a different conclusion, they are free to do so, unless it is dangerous or illegal. And they can have an opinion, but they have to realize that not all will agree with it. That is itself is a life lesson.
> 
> I have always felt that consequences for actions can be the best teachers. We can all learn from them, no matter the age.


You still haven't answered the question of what is proper when the ranks disagree with those higher on the chain of command. You say that they may have different opinions but are they free to openly express those opinions in defiance of those higher up the chain?


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Patchouli said:


> You must not have a political party then since all of them can be hateful.


Correct you are.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> You still haven't answered the question of what is proper when the ranks disagree with those higher on the chain of command. You say that they may have different opinions but are they free to openly express those opinions in defiance of those higher up the chain?



As to the kids coming to a different conclusion, they are free to do so, unless it is dangerous or illegal. And they can have an opinion, but they have to realize that not all will agree with it. That is itself is a life lesson.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Ambereyes said:


> As to the kids coming to a different conclusion, they are free to do so, unless it is dangerous or illegal. And they can have an opinion, but they have to realize that not all will agree with it. That is itself is a life lesson.


That still doesn't answer the question of how freely they may express that opinion. Are children to be seen and not heard or are they free to express that dissenting opinion no matter who, or how far up the "chain of command" that opinion dissents from?


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

mmoetc said:


> That still doesn't answer the question of how freely they may express that opinion. Are children to be seen and not heard or are they free to express that dissenting opinion no matter who, or how far up the "chain of command" that opinion dissents from?


As one who grew up within this group of families, yes we could express our views,but respect was always in play. I have many times and yeah I got answers. 

Why does having a chain of command with in a family seem to disturb you?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

no really said:


> As one who grew up within this group of families, yes we could express our views,but respect was always in play. I have many times and yeah I got answers.
> 
> Why does having a chain of command with in a family seem to disturb you?


It doesn't disturb me. All families have one in some form or another. My question pertains to the original criticism in this post of the First Lady advocating that those further down the chain speak out against those things said by those higher up the chain. Having conversations and explaining the rationale for opinions and stances is great. Telling your kid that because you're just a kid you can't speak up to racist Uncle Buck when he starts in because he's higher up the chain of command is, in my opinion, counterproductive.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

mmoetc said:


> It doesn't disturb me. All families have one in some form or another. My question pertains to the original criticism in this post of the First Lady advocating that those further down the chain speak out against those things said by those higher up the chain. Having conversations and explaining the rationale for opinions and stances is great. Telling your kid that because you're just a kid you can't speak up to racist Uncle Buck when he starts in because he's higher up the chain of command is, in my opinion, counterproductive.


Speaking up and asking questions is something we were always free to do. Good parenting IMHO is about answering the hard questions fairly.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

no really said:


> Speaking up and asking questions is something we were always free to do. Good parenting IMHO is about answering the hard questions fairly.


And it was the same in the house I grew up in and it was how my daughter was raised. It is how I think all families should be. I know the reality of the world is quite different. None of that really answers the question of why it might be wrong to buck the chain of command and stand up to the racist at the dinner table no matter your age or rank in the family structure.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> This comment sounds somewhat racist to me.... cant you even construct a simple sentence without bringing color into it? Oh, and exactly which color would be "off" in your opinion?


Just saw this and normally I'd roll my eyes at such a baiting post but I'm on my boat, under sunny skies, cruising the beautiful San Juan Islands with a rum and coke in my hand. So carry on with your silliness...if I see it I'll be sure to laugh.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

MDKatie said:


> I remember the repubs saying there was a new "dog" in the Whitehouse when Clinton was elected...of course they were talking about 13 year old Chelsea. Shame on them, too.


I thought they were speaking of that dog, Bill.
Plus, if it was about Chlesea, it was not vile, like it was about Palin's handicapped child.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Just saw this and normally I'd roll my eyes at such a baiting post but I'm on my boat, under sunny skies, cruising the beautiful San Juan Islands with a rum and coke in my hand. So carry on with your silliness...if I see it I'll be sure to laugh.


Enjoy your day.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

I worry when a govt person (and First Lady has assumed a public role in politics/ govt....) suggests family members monitor each other.

It sounds like the book 1984.

Family members should not be recruited as govt personnel.

While her intentions might have been well meaning, it comes across badly.

Paul


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

rambler said:


> I worry when a govt person (and First Lady has assumed a public role in politics/ govt....) suggests family members monitor each other.
> 
> It sounds like the book 1984.
> 
> ...


If she had said anything about bringing government authorities in I would agree with you. Advocating for people to have the courage to personally stand up for what they believe in is far from Orwellian.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Well that seals it then. Racist jokes are awesome!


Only to those with a sense of humor.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> If she had said anything about bringing government authorities in I would agree with you. Advocating for people to have the courage to personally stand up for what they believe in is far from Orwellian.


I appreciate what you are saying. It is difficult to separate a personal comment from an official govt proclamation when coming from a prominent political person, and so the comments have a different feel to me than they may to you. Just a subtle thing.


The difference between a bully and an advocate is only, perhaps, which side of an issue one is on? Anyhow it seems at times.

This country has gotten very active in telling people to crush bullies because they are bad and bad behavior; while at the same time telling people to become advocates pushing ones goals and views upon others.

That is an interesting set of goals to sort out. 

Personally, I'm more for tolerance and understanding, and if that doesn't get anywhere to simply move on. I'm not really on board with confronting ones elders in the family. There is already enough conflict in most families that our leaders don't need to advocate for more.

I would not want to. Bully my elders, whether they are wrong or not.

Paul


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Tricky Grama said:


> I thought they were speaking of that dog, Bill.
> Plus, if it was about Chlesea, it was not vile, like it was about Palin's handicapped child.


So it's ok to pick on a child, as long as it's not a handicapped child? It's less hurtful to a teen girl than a baby who has no clue what was said? Please don't try to justify it.


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

rambler said:


> I would not want to. Bully my elders, whether they are wrong or not.


If I were to say to my parents "Please don't use that language in front of my children," or my children were to say "I don't like it when you say that," I do not feel as though that would be bullying. Are people really that delicate when they age?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mistletoad said:


> If I were to say to my parents "Please don't use that language in front of my children," or my children were to say "I don't like it when you say that," I do not feel as though that would be bullying. Are people really that delicate when they age?


I cant speak for everyone.... but I am extremely delicate now that I am getting older... 63 next week.... and it seems my feelers are always getting trampled on by this younger generation with all their "politically correct" nonsense.

If I were to say to my dear old dad "Please don't use that lang...." I would be picking myself up off the floor on the far side of the room before I could finish the sentence. Yep, he gets his feelers hurt pretty easily too.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Tricky Grama said:


> I thought they were speaking of that dog, Bill.
> Plus, if it was about Chlesea, it was not vile, like it was about Palin's handicapped child.


How in this wide world is it not vile to call a young girl a dog? I think you must have a party if you defend the meanness of one and not the other. By the way the Clinton's had a cat not a dog. The Lab puppy didn't come until later in the Presidency.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I cant speak for everyone.... but I am extremely delicate now that I am getting older... 63 next week.... and it seems my feelers are always getting trampled on by this younger generation with all their "politically correct" nonsense.
> 
> If I were to say to my dear old dad "Please don't use that lang...." I would be picking myself up off the floor on the far side of the room before I could finish the sentence. Yep, he gets his feelers hurt pretty easily too.


I am sorry your father is abusive. If my father was like that I would not spend time with him.


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## mistletoad (Apr 17, 2003)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I cant speak for everyone.... but I am extremely delicate now that I am getting older... 63 next week.... and it seems my feelers are always getting trampled on by this younger generation with all their "politically correct" nonsense.
> 
> If I were to say to my dear old dad "Please don't use that lang...." I would be picking myself up off the floor on the far side of the room before I could finish the sentence. Yep, he gets his feelers hurt pretty easily too.


I wouldn't be inviting a person like that into my home.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> I am sorry your father is abusive. If my father was like that I would not spend time with him.


My father is not abusive. He just has a very low tolerance for stupid.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> How in this wide world is it not vile to call a young girl a dog? I think you must have a party if you defend the meanness of one and not the other. By the way the Clinton's had a cat not a dog. The Lab puppy didn't come until later in the Presidency.


I dont think anyone was referring to Chelsea.... Her mother however fits the definition to a tee.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I dont think anyone was referring to Chelsea.... Her mother however fits the definition to a tee.


That is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> My father is not abusive. He just has a very low tolerance for stupid.


One adult hitting another adult for something they say is abuse.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> That is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself.


Yep, she is disgusting.... but I just pointed it out... I didnt make her that way... the shame is hers, not mine.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Patchouli said:


> One adult hitting another adult for something they say is abuse.


Perhaps in your "PC" world. In my world it is perfectly acceptable to use necessary means to stop or to prevent "abusive" verbal insults.


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I dont think anyone was referring to Chelsea.... Her mother however fits the definition to a tee.


Actually, looks like Rush is the one who said it, and he absolutely was referring to Chelsea since he held up a picture of her.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

MDKatie said:


> Actually, looks like Rush is the one who said it, and he absolutely was referring to Chelsea since he held up a picture of her.


IF so, then I stand corrected... and that would make Rush a bit of a putz. I am curious though, again, I dont get out much, so I could be wrong but I was under the impression that Rush did a radio gig.... holding up a photo in front of a microphone doesnt make a lot of sense to me. But then Charlie Mcarthy did pretty well on radio too. :shrug:


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## MDKatie (Dec 13, 2010)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> IF so, then I stand corrected... and that would make Rush a bit of a putz. I am curious though, again, I dont get out much, so I could be wrong but I was under the impression that Rush did a radio gig.... holding up a photo in front of a microphone doesnt make a lot of sense to me. But then Charlie Mcarthy did pretty well on radio too. :shrug:


I've seen Rush on tv before. Howard Stern, too. Not that I actually watched on purpose, but just flipping channels.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mistletoad said:


> I wouldn't be inviting a person like that into my home.


A wise move on your part... particularly if you are going to attempt to change his ways at this late date in his life.


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