# Well pump question



## Lajaw (Jan 26, 2012)

We have a well with a submersible pump in it. When we looked at this property, the owners had what looked like a 12/2 wire on top of the ground run to the well. This place has for the last several years been used as a hunting camp, so nothing was kept up and little is known about original workings. When we took possession, that wire run to the well was gone (along with other things) so I ran a 12/2 wire myself and put plugs on both ends like they had before. When plugged in, we get water but little pressure. There was a bladder pressure tank at the well and a bigger one in the basement. The basement tank never gets water in it. I removed the tank at the well, put in a new pressure switch and ran an additional 12/2 wire to the pump because of concerns over voltage/amperage drop. I used one 12/2 as positive and the other as negative for testing. It did not help. So now, I'm wondering if the pump might be set up for 220v and I'm only supplying it with 110v. My question is, will the pump run on 110v when it should be 220v? The well is in a location that we can't get any equipment to to pull it, so it'll have to be pulled by hand and I'm not sure how deep. Any ideas? Thanks


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

The majority of submersibles are 240 volt. That's not to say that this one is. How about the original plug configuration that was installed by the owner? Was it a 240 volt plug? Was it plugged into an existing electrical service? Does the camp have power? Is the pump hanging off a pitless adapter a few feet down inside the casing? Is there anything stamped, or written inside the lid of the casing telling you how deep the well is, or where the pump was set? Did you try disconnecting the supply pipe at the top of the well and checking flow and pressure at the top of the well head? 

Couple of points about your post, nothing personal, just info. There is no positive and negative in AC power distribution. You can get killed screwing with something you have little understanding of, when it comes to residential power. Unless your well is incredibly deep, as in over 600', you can get a 120 volt puller from a rental yard, and hand carry it to the well head. You do not need access for a truck, or heavy equipment in most cases.

Good luck, if I had to guess you need a 20 amp/ 240 volt circuit for the pump, but you will burn it out if you guess wrong. Try to get more info. to post. There are a few real experts that are members here, but any additional info. would help.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

220 has three legs, 2-- 120 volt and 1-- common.

if you have only 2 wires your feeding 110.

doh I just re read your post duh you already knew that your running 110.

you may just have a failing pump.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

||Downhome|| said:


> 220 has three legs, 2-- 120 volt and 1-- common.
> 
> if you have only 2 wires your feeding 110.
> 
> ...


EVERYTHING about this post in WRONG!!!!! This is why folks who have no clue really need to #1 avoid doing something that may end up killing them. #2 avoid giving advice to others when they haven't got a clue!!!!

In residential wiring there are very few applications where you would need both legs of the split phase service (240 volts) AND a neutral to a load. IF there is a need for a neutral (NOT A COMMON) it typically indicates that the load has a combination of 120/240 circuits in use, IE a clothes dryer, or electric range. Straight 240 volt loads, IE electric heat, well pumps, water heaters, etc..... require two hot legs and a ground. If you have a third current carrying conductor heading down a well, typically there is a control box above ground, and the third wire is the start capacitor lead.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

*"1) A black wire* which is often known as the "hot" wire, which carries the current in to the fixture. 
*2) Another "hot" wire which is red*, which also carries current in to the fixture. 
*3) A white wire* called the neutral which completes the electrical circuit for the 120 volt accessories only. 
*4) A bare copper wire* called the ground, the sole function of which is to enhance user safety. *At one time, the code allowed for one insulated wire to function as both ground and neutral in 120 / 240 volt combo circuits*, but now all such circuits must use the 4 wire scheme. This is why your new dryer (or electric range) might have 4 prongs on its plug and your old dryer receptacle only has 3 holes. In which case article 250.140 of the 2005 N.E.C. (National Electric Code) allows for the "pigtail" (the cord and plug assembly) to be changed to match the old 3 wire receptacle as long as certain conditions are met. The National Electric Code allows that, but your local code might not, so check first, or even better yet make a deal with the appliance dealer to do it for you."

from http://www.nojolt.com/Understanding_240_volt_circuits.shtml

theres nothing wrong about my post, perhaps dated but not wrong.
as far as dated goes does not sound as if the place is up to national code anyways.
you quite the condescending guy aint ya...
you could of posted that a bit different but I got a feeling you have some elitist type mentality.

By the way a Intelligent person does there own due diligence especially with thing off the web but I know lots of experts that get it wrong too.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

Downhome. Providing incorrect information to the inexperienced is generally a harmless effort. Sadly, in the case of dangerously wrong "advice" regarding medium voltage AC, it can be fatal. Advising the members here that YOU have absolutely no idea what the heck you are talking about isn't something makes me elitist or condescending. IT IS DONE TO PREVENT SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH, got it? 

Contrary to your second post, you have no understanding of electrical theory or practical installation of residential wiring, and the information you provided in the first post is 100% incorrect and could be deadly, if followed. 

Ironically enough, the piece that you cut-n-pasted (with no understanding of exactly what you were reading ) does a fine job of clarifying the fact that you are wrong. You stated, " 220 volts has three legs 2-120 volts and a common" You fail to understand the definition of the commonly used term "leg", which is slang term for a current carrying conductor. There can only be two of these in a split phase 120/240 volt residential system. You use the term "common" which you apparently are using to designate a needless neutral? The term common is used as an identifier when wiring three and four way switches, it is not a substitute for the word neutral, as a common is a current carrying conductor. Finally, you proved yourself wrong with #3 in your paste job. This statement is dealing with wiring a dryer, but mirrors my comments. Clarifying that a neutral is only needed for 120 volt loads. 

In closing, your second response, oddly enough, is largely a pasted piece about how to wire a dryer. It has nothing to do with a well, and the only reason you drifted in that direction is that you attempted to respond to my explanation as to where you might find 240 volts circuits WITH a neutral in common residential branch circuits. This change took place about 25 years ago and has NOTHING to do with your first post, or the questions the OP is asking. 
The fact that your last line covers both due diligence, and experts who are incorrect is painfully ironic.......... I'm sure your family wants to grow old with you. Do yourself a favor, stop giving advice to those that you may bring harm to, and hire an electrician next time you need one.


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## davel745 (Feb 2, 2009)

From what I read you are running 110 to the pump. but the pump may not big enough to supply to much water. A 110 volt pump isn't to large. You may need a 220 volt, 1 and 1/2 hp pump. depends on how deep the well is.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

you make many assumptions sir... in reply to wharton.


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## hillbillytn (Sep 28, 2009)

Old 2 wire pumps had 2 wires. new 2 wire pumps have 3 wires one being a ground. Old 3 wire pumps had 3 wires and control box new 3 wire pumps have 4 wires and control box. A 240v pump running on 120v wont build pressure. if a 120v pump wont build pressure with 120v it is shot. You can not tell what v pump is by how many wires on the pump.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Not to mention if you work a 240v pump too hard pulling only 120v you'll burn it up.
and if you run 220 to a 110 pump you'll burn it up.

Like I said in the first post my moneys on the pump going, low flow is usually a good indicator.
the well might be another.


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## Fire-Man (Apr 30, 2005)

Lajaw said:


> When plugged in, we get water but little pressure. There was a bladder pressure tank at the well and a bigger one in the basement. The basement tank never gets water in it. Thanks


To me if you are getting water with little pressure, there should be some water going into the bigger tank---even with a couple pounds or so of pressure. Could be the wrong voltage, but I would hunt a open/busted water line. I have water lines run over 200 yards away from my well/home. You might too---just do not know it yet.

Can you check the flow(gpm) at the pump? Do you have a cut off valve at the pump/well/tank to cut off all water lines? Cut it off and see if the pump builds up more pressure.


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## hillbillytn (Sep 28, 2009)

Most likely 240v pump.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

||Downhome|| said:


> you make many assumptions sir... in reply to wharton.


 Not a single assumption in anything I posted. Thirty years as a licensed industrial/instutional electrician, a handful of credits shy of my EE, and a bit of a clue......... you on the other hand, not so much. BTW, it is absolutely hilarious that you post a heart next to hillybillytn's post (totally correct info. btw) when it completely contradicts your dangerous misinformation, you're too much.


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## wharton (Oct 9, 2011)

hillbillytn said:


> Most likely 240v pump.


 I would tend to agree that there is a 99% chance that it is. I deal with a large regional pump supplier who has hundreds of submersibles on the shelf, but would have to special order a 120 volt unit. When it comes to actually replacing this, or any submersible, I would caution against another poster's advice to just take a WAG at the correct replacement and just throw something big in. There are a lot of factors involved including bore depth, pump setting depth, static level, desired GPMs at specific pressures, total head etc.... there is a lot of money to be wasted by oversizing a pump just because the old one "looked a little small'. I would also recommend pulling the pump for a total inspection and to bench test it above ground. The possible issues in the bore are plentiful including everything from a stuck foot valve, worn wiring, or even a hole worn through the piping.


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## Waterwheel Farm (Oct 10, 2011)

I've been through this exact thing. I bought a place, was told there was a well, but all I had was some plastic hose coming out of the ground with wires next to it. I also hooked up 120 to it, and it ran but water barely came out the hose. I then found out that many submersible well pumps have just two wires and they run on 240V. I hooked it up to 240V and it ran great for years. Not telling you to do that, but that's what I did, and you asked.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

I'm afraid wharton is right. 
Somewhere in the world, there's probably a *3 phase* well pump, but not likely in a residence or old hunt camp, lol.
Single phase 220v has 2 legs and a ground.

To the OP, it's likely a 220v pump, most are, and they may have used a generator for powering it when they needed it.
No, it won't be good to run it on 110v if it's supposed to have 220v.
If you DO end up pulling by hand, try to get a tractor in there with a bucket or forks, so you can use the hydraulics to lift. When you start gettining into hundreds of feet of pipe, you'd better be a champion weightlifter, otherwise.

One last note.
You're more likely to burn up a pump putting 110v first instead of 220v, because you're send TWICE the amps to it.


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## Fire-Man (Apr 30, 2005)

Wharton, you can jump on me for what I am about to say if you want!! Downhome was just trying to help, before you kicked him in the gut and stomped him in the dirt. You might be smart in electrial, but I Personally seen No Need for your attack. I feel you could have suggested or shared your knowledge of the 2 wires/3 wires nicely Instead Of Attacking. I feel you need more knowledge in how to treat your fellow Man!

As far as the pump, If everything but the pump checks out---no open/busted pipes etc----I would Throw 220 to the pump and see what happens. If it burns up---it was not working right anyway. The time and expence to pull the well, that is hard to get to to do anyway---I would gamble it. Most everyone says it is probably 220 anyway. Do all your "Homework" and when you see nothing else wrong--put the power to it. Its probably a old pump anyway and needs to be rebuilt/replaced! The only way I would pull it is after I Tryed It/Fried It. Then I would Have to pull it. JMO


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

just go and read some of his other posts, then go find some of mine.

I can be a ----er too but this guy... whoa donkey whoa donkey... 

ya probably should not have but there it is...

oh and smart guy , I did not pick the heart , I just liked his post cause he cut it short and said what I was trying to!


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Lajaw, 

Avoiding the whizzing contest and trying to solve your situation regarding your pump here is my suggestion. Get a good multimeter and follow the guidelines here ( http://www.deanbennett.com/testing-submersible-pump-motors.htm ) and check out the resistance in ohms of the motor windings. This is a simple and inexpensive means that should identify what is down the casing. I have no credentials for well repair and I am self taught. However, I do know how to repair water well systems.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2013)

agmantoo said:


> Lajaw,
> 
> Avoiding the whizzing contest and trying to solve your situation regarding your pump here is my suggestion. Get a good multimeter and follow the guidelines here ( http://www.deanbennett.com/testing-submersible-pump-motors.htm ) and check out the resistance in ohms of the motor windings. This is a simple and inexpensive means that should identify what is down the casing. I have no credentials for well repair and I am self taught. However, I do know how to repair water well systems.


Finally , a post that makes sense .


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

Agree to the whizing contest but if you do not know what impeadance to expect then measuring the resistance is futile. We know it pumps but not much therefore he has windings that work. What should this motor measure, anything stated here is a swag answer.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Robotron

Since we would be using DC voltage from the multimeter battery and measuring resistance and there being no 60 cycles with the mains power off and not concerned with reactance, the length and diameter along with the metal of the wire going to the motor would be the concerning variable as I see it. The link I included in my post above gives the windings resistance and we should get close to identifying the motor shouldn't we?


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Agman

If the pumps on its way out, as in the windings shorting, how are you going to know thats the proper read ? 

He said he replaced the pressure switch, if the pressure switch was bad or not set proper or if the bladder was bad that thing could of been short cycling since it was dropped.
Good way to kill a pump.

Another possibility is the pipe to the house is Broke or clogged. 
We have lots of lime and minerals and go through a coffee maker and shower head pretty frequently.


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## Robotron (Mar 25, 2012)

Still need a reference on what the windings should be. Whether its 0.5 ohms or 2 k, you still need to know what the manufacture designed to. A reading other than open circuit doesn't indicate anything without the specifications.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

I should have been more elaborate with my reply. Persons that seldom work on wells don't realize that Franklin Electric is the source of most all of the motors on submersible pumps. The brand on the pump is that of the pump manufacturer. They buy the motors from an outside source. The resistance of these motors and of the few others that are on the market typically fall in the same ohm range as those in the link posted above. The 110 volt motors will be around ~1 ohm whereas the 230v motors will have ~2 to ~3 times the resistance of the 110 volt motors for the 1/2 to 3/4 HP pumps used in most residential applications.


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## o&itw (Dec 19, 2008)

||Downhome|| said:


> just go and read some of his other posts, then go find some of mine.
> 
> I can be a ----er too but this guy... whoa donkey whoa donkey...
> 
> ...



Your second post was the "correct" way to hook up a 220 circuit. However, because the original owners ran a piece of 2 wire romex across the ground , you know that it was not done correctly for either 110 v or 220v. A 220v pump only needs 2 wires to run. Assuming it was 110 v for that reason is a good way to ruin the pump or get somebody killed. The original pump installer, who probably has a sticker on the pressure tank will most likely 
have a record of the kind of pump that was installed.

In this case, if one runs a 220 pump on 110, it will burn the pump up before long.

The OP needs to get some professional help with this pump.... this is not a place to scrimp, and doing it wrong is dangerous and may be more costly in the long run.

||downhome|| I respectfully submit that your hear-say advice is dangerous, and you should stick to answers where you have professional experience.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

LaJaw - looks like this thread derailed some, I kinda quit reading the messages.

Water and electricity can be a harmful thing.

What was there, and what you are trying to recreate with just 2 wires and your knowledge level does not sound healthy.....

I assume you bought this place to enjoy and improve and have for a long time to come.

This might be one of those good times to suck it up, realize you m
Are in over your head, and have someone who knows what they are doing come in and do a proper instal of what you need to run a well.

I know that costs money, could be a fair sized bill, but again. Water. Electricity. Wires and pipes running all over your farmstead. This can get kinda bad if you do things wrong.

I don't mean to be a know it all, or presume to be telling you what to do nor do I want to join the fray here.

I think I could muddle through figuring out the distance, voltage drop, and voltage from any clues left on your place, and could probably work out a safe wiring setup,with the right number of wires and burry them the safe 18 inches deep, but without being there to see what you are working with, I don't think it is safe for -any- of us to try to advise you what to do. There are too many details to deal with for us to guess from a distance.

It just sounds like this could go wrong in a hurry and there go your dreams and hopes for the future.....

Paul


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

well first any one who take anything as gospel on the internet really deserves a Darwin award.

But o&itw I can respect and appreciate your post.

With out specifics where all making assumptions and the original poster still has yet to respond.with any kind of specifics.

But assumming a pro did actually do the pump work is a big assumption , I put the pump in here and yes its wired properly to the 220. Breaker and all. 

Then assuming he will bring in a pro to do it is yet another assumtion, HT attracts people that want and do "do" for themselves.

I used the wrong terminology in the first post and I can thank warton for his correcting me but still don't like the way he did it. 

I should of said 2 legs and a ground. which is how ours is hooked up.


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## Lajaw (Jan 26, 2012)

After the rude belligerent posts, I pulled the pump. The pump was 110v and I replaced it with a 220v pump, ran new direct bury 10/2 with ground and have had water since. I don't get on here much because we have some nasty know-it-all's here. I solved it on my own. But thanks to everyone who actually tried to help. Much appreciated.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

Thanks for the update.

Unlike most homesteader type advice, electrical questions are fraught with a single right way to do something, and 50-60 ways to get it to work but be wrong and dangerous......

I always say if you mess up on a plumbing job you get wet.

If you mess up a wiring job, you can get a fire, dead, or set a trap that waits for 20 years to fry some unsuspecting person.......

Its good people are passionate about keeping the rest of us safe.

Paul


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## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

Lajaw said:


> After the rude belligerent posts, I pulled the pump. The pump was 110v and I replaced it with a 220v pump, ran new direct bury 10/2 with ground and have had water since. I don't get on here much because we have some nasty know-it-all's here. I solved it on my own. But thanks to everyone who actually tried to help. Much appreciated.


You did the right thing.I am surprised that the original pump was 110 volts.


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