# Is alternative power worth it?



## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Not in a feel good way, but in dollars and sense?

I have been waiting for a good alternative to grid power for as long as I've had a bill. I have yet to find an alternative that doesn't cost at least double. Most are 4-5 times the cost. Now I realize independence has value that is impossible to measure, But important. Alternative power guru's suggest saving power, down sizing, learning to do with less. If you did this on grid power your bill would be tiny. So any "savings" with using alternatives would be even less than trying to maintain a regular lifestyle.



Will there ever be a cheap, low cost, or even at par "alternative" to grid power?


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## GregYohn (Jan 24, 2013)

Look, what is correct? Where you live depends if alternative energy is good for you. 

My local electric rates are high. Are your rates low? Does your State subsidize AE? Are planning to live there more than a year or two? 

In my State, leasing solar panels costs less than paying an electric company, so I would say AE is worth it!


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

GregYohn said:


> Look, what is correct? Where you live depends if alternative energy is good for you.
> 
> My local electric rates are high. Are your rates low? Does your State subsidize AE? Are planning to live there more than a year or two?
> 
> In my State, leasing solar panels costs less than paying an electric company, so I would say AE is worth it!


 Electric is not expensive with a cursory look at the cost of solar. Grid tie solar works out to be Impossible without heavy subsidy. They tell me 40-50 thousand to replace a 100 dollar monthly bill. The lease I guess it's good if you want 2 bills.

P.S. My state is the same as yours Pennsylvania.


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

Short term doesn't look so good. Long term and small systems work well. I am all 12 volt, I have to live within the system, manage it, that is all I get. It can be done ongrid but it is easy and tempting to use more and more. I, Sweetie and everyone that uses and sees it, marvels at how simple and easy it is to live small. 12 volt all on a shared wall, simple to wire, very cheap install cost. Later added a microhydro unit that I found for $25.00. Everything was used, recycled or scrounged. Less than 16' of wire, 4 outlets, 4 LED lights, 3 used batteries and a small solar panel....James


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Short term is not the only way to look at solar. With the closing of many coal fired plants, and the current "war on carbon", the cost of electricity is likely going to escalate in the future. When you put in solar now, you are basically "pre-paying" your bill for the next 20 years or so.

Also, ( and this is the #1 reason I installed mine ), there is a reasonable possibility that the grid could fail at some future point ( economic collapse, EMP hit, Carrington Event, etc ), and a backup source of power will mean the difference in living 20th century style ( lights/refrigeration ) or one of those previous centuries.

If solar doesn't work for you, don't go there. Spend the money on a Carnival Cruise.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

TnAndy said:


> Short term is not the only way to look at solar. With the closing of many coal fired plants, and the current "war on carbon", the cost of electricity is likely going to escalate in the future. When you put in solar now, you are basically "pre-paying" your bill for the next 20 years or so.
> 
> Also, ( and this is the #1 reason I installed mine ), there is a reasonable possibility that the grid could fail at some future point ( economic collapse, EMP hit, Carrington Event, etc ), and a backup source of power will mean the difference in living 20th century style ( lights/refrigeration ) or one of those previous centuries.
> 
> If solar doesn't work for you, don't go there. Spend the money on a Carnival Cruise.


Your reasons for wanting it are why I wish the same for me and mine.  I also predict that if the government artificially raises the cost of electric too much... The people will vote them out as is happening across the pond.

P.S. Apparently traveling by boat hasn't changed much in 200 years...


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Yet once again Andy has hit the nail with the claws of the hammer . . . .lol

Think I'll sell my system . . . .

Carnival Cruse . . .here I come . . . . . .

In my luggage I will have my newly developed slingshot turd slinger....... . . STS (pattented)

From the 12th story up I just hope it will go far enough away so that it doesn't come back and splatter on the side of the ship lower down.
That will be a challenge on the windward side of the ship..........lol


Thanks Andy . . . . I shall for go my wind & PV for a turdy life at sea......................lol


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Let's take this a different way... Is even micro-solar worth while?

Take a 30 watt solar panel and a 7 watt bulb.

Can someone demonstrate how the panel above is cheaper than using grid power for this light?


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Let's look at "worth it" for a minute and assume new construction of a rural home. 

When we built our home a few years ago the local power company quoted well over $100,000 to bring up power. They, somewhat reasonably, have a policy requiring that power line extensions be underground. Pricy! That would require a lot of fuel, wire, plastic, transformers, manpower, component shipping etc. be expended.

We put in a fine solar system for a 3,400 sf house for a bit under $25,000. 

Lots of good questions about payback if you have power already to or very close to your house. Rural ..........it depends.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Gray Wolf said:


> Let's look at "worth it" for a minute and assume new construction of a rural home.
> 
> When we built our home a few years ago the local power company quoted well over $100,000 to bring up power. They, somewhat reasonably, have a policy requiring that power line extensions be underground. Pricy! That would require a lot of fuel, wire, plastic, transformers, manpower, component shipping etc. be expended.
> 
> ...


I'm sure the price of the above land was also lower to reflect this reality. Living in certain places have different costs. But they aren't necessarily more than other places just different.

For instance where I'm at I expect to heat the home for 7-8 months a year. This is quite expensive. But I have almost no cooling cost at all. You couldn't get grid power... Didn't the cheaper price of the land offset it?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

It really depends on whether you are using your own brain, intuition and personal circumstances or following every latest invention or gadget.
The title of the thread said "alternative" yet you only mentioned solar, and by that I think you meant solar voltaic.
There are many other alternatives to electric, not just one. Find what works for you. If it's electric, good for you. OTOH, my electric bill is lower than ever, my propane bill went to zero, because I went with the alternative of wood. The material is free, my labor is small, no investment in tools because I already owned a chainsaw and maul, and my return on investment of the stove and chimney was one year.
Now if you make a lot of money per hour, then your labor factor will be different than mine. But I enjoy the exercise, it doesn't adversely affect my income and it lowers my expenses.
That's what works for me. Others may find it's natural gas, coal, passive solar, geothermal, wind, hydro, making methane from their farm's manure or just insulating their house.
It's when people think that there is only one alternative for everyone on the planet that things get messed up.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> It really depends on whether you are using your own brain, intuition and personal circumstances or following every latest invention or gadget.
> The title of the thread said "alternative" yet you only mentioned solar, and by that I think you meant solar voltaic.
> There are many other alternatives to electric, not just one. Find what works for you. If it's electric, good for you. OTOH, my electric bill is lower than ever, my propane bill went to zero, because I went with the alternative of wood. The material is free, my labor is small, no investment in tools because I already owned a chainsaw and maul, and my return on investment of the stove and chimney was one year.
> Now if you make a lot of money per hour, then your labor factor will be different than mine. But I enjoy the exercise, it doesn't adversely affect my income and it lowers my expenses.
> ...


Your right in that this post is kinda focused on solar. Wind has about the same #'s also. One could use hydro, of course water front property costs more than no water... So is it really cheaper? 

As for using wood. If your cutting your trees, your still losing money IMHO. They are worth more as timber generally. If your cutting "free" wood. As you note time can be an expensive proposition. I too enjoyed harvesting wood. I've switched to coal. I spend far less time and get better more even heat. Which means I consume less btu's per day. No up and down heating. The difference is so stark.. That if I was to continue processing wood and selling it. I could more than double my money in regards to the cost of coal.

Wood I used 8 cord at a local price of 150 a cord. Or 1200 a year.



I use 3 ton of coal at the local price of 200 a ton. or 600 a year.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

I was trying to say that, for NEW construction, the (I think the term is embodied, or maybe embedded) TOTAL cost needs to be compared. 

On grid - your fraction of power plant has to be built, distribution infrastructure, pollution, maintaince, government/taxpayer subsidies forever, and a bill every month. 

Off grid - society and the environment gets off pretty cheap and you pay a minimal amount for maintainence - once the system is in. 

Which is cheaper? Beats me ..... but I think that for energy conscious consumers, off grid is a contender.


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi,
Doug put in his 4.6 KW system for $2.29 a peak watt -- $11,500 total.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/PV/DougEnphase/DougEnphase.htm

If you take off the 30% federal tax credit, that becomes $8000. If your state has some credits, that may go down some more.

Per PVWatts, the system will generate about 5900KWH a year.

If you pay 10 cents a KWH, thats about $500 saving a year, which is 6.25% return on your investment.
Its not that easy to find investments that pay 6% that are tax free, risk free, and inflation protected these days.

For me, the 10000 lb reduction in carbon emissions is also a big plus.

If you heat your house 7 or 8 months a year, you are probably putting quite a bit more energy into heating than into electricity -- you might want to take a look at solar thermal for some of your heating. 


Gary


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> Your right in that this post is kinda focused on solar. Wind has about the same #'s also. One could use hydro, of course water front property costs more than no water... So is it really cheaper?
> 
> As for using wood. If your cutting your trees, your still losing money IMHO. They are worth more as timber generally. If your cutting "free" wood. As you note time can be an expensive proposition. I too enjoyed harvesting wood. I've switched to coal. I spend far less time and get better more even heat. Which means I consume less btu's per day. No up and down heating. The difference is so stark.. That if I was to continue processing wood and selling it. I could more than double my money in regards to the cost of coal.
> 
> ...



There ya go, you gotta find what works for you.
I collect wood that's all around me, but "save" the trees on my place for if and when I need them. For the past month or so, they've been moving the power lines and have felled a whole bunch of trees for me.
My neighbors have been clearing some of theirs, and ask me to take them away.:grin:
There's continuous supply within a short vicinity. I'm always looking for a good "alternative".:banana:


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

Gary
That is a great way to explain the solar with comparing to investing in stock market. Hopefully doing it this way will show more people what the benifits of solar are.

P.S. how the greenhouse coming? I am tossing around the idea of building one but with a vertical glass solar wall and solar water heat on the roof for nighttime heating. Actually been tossing around that idea for years but never get around to doing it. What are your thoughts on vertical, I probably get about the same sun as you being here about an hour east of the MREA. ..... sorry to change subject
Gary

Would move to to warm nicaragau if my wife would let me


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

Gary
How has your pv system done compared to what pv watts projects?
Gary


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

stanb999 said:


> As for using wood. If your cutting your trees, your still losing money IMHO. They are worth more as timber generally.


You're not up on forest management.

Depending on your annual rainfall ( 30" or so +....ours in East TN is typically mid 40" range ), but for most areas, you can cut a cord of wood off an acre per year, and actually IMPROVE the final timber yield. You cut out the stuff that will never make decent timber, and thin to allow the best to grow.

That means an 5-10acre wood lot will supply the typical home forever.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

stanb999 said:


> Electric is not expensive with a cursory look at the cost of solar. Grid tie solar works out to be Impossible without heavy subsidy. They tell me 40-50 thousand to replace a 100 dollar monthly bill. The lease I guess it's good if you want 2 bills.
> 
> P.S. My state is the same as yours Pennsylvania.


Our whole house system is running around $20k. No grid-tie.





TnAndy said:


> Short term is not the only way to look at solar. With the closing of many coal fired plants, and the current "war on carbon", the cost of electricity is likely going to escalate in the future. When you put in solar now, you are basically "pre-paying" your bill for the next 20 years or so.


I agree completely.



Where we live municipal utility grid goes down at least once a month, every month. It has been many years since our township went a month without losing power at least once.

I want reliable power. 

We bought PV panels and are in the process of going off-grid, as the only means of getting power to our home everyday. We will still be hooked-up to the grid but only as a secondary source, for those days when the municipal utility company feels like providing power.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

TnAndy said:


> You're not up on forest management.
> 
> Depending on your annual rainfall ( 30" or so +....ours in East TN is typically mid 40" range ), but for most areas, you can cut a cord of wood off an acre per year, and actually IMPROVE the final timber yield. You cut out the stuff that will never make decent timber, and thin to allow the best to grow.
> 
> That means an 5-10acre wood lot will supply the typical home forever.


Yes, But my "woods" are in the process of returning they are in the neighborhood of 15 years from timber (6-8 inch caliper.) There were a bunch of wolf, miss shaped, double trunk trees that I cut out. But now it's a waiting game.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

SolarGary said:


> Hi,
> Doug put in his 4.6 KW system for $2.29 a peak watt -- $11,500 total.
> http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/PV/DougEnphase/DougEnphase.htm
> 
> ...


Lets see if I have the math right...
590 watts a month is 59.00 dollars.

for his solar it cost 11,500... that is 70 dollars a month @ 4% for twenty years.

This nets a loss of 11 dollars or 20%.

Tax credits are great for those that are rather well off. If you don't make enough to pay taxes (as most Americans with children) you pay the full freight.

The state I live has incentives for solar and you can receive them. If you higher a company to do the install it has been suggested in my area it would be around 25-30K for an install by certified companies. Basically they work like farm subsidies, they make it cost twice as much then give you half back. These programs are required to grid tie. So the above 11,500 is likely much less than it will cost.


I've been thinking about solar preheating, It will most likely work 6 months or so of the year. I will need a heat exchanger and anti-freeze in the pipes. But it could work. It's just that it's cool and cloudy so much of the year.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

stanb999 said:


> Tax credits are great for those that are rather well off. If you don't make enough to pay taxes (as most Americans with children) you pay the full freight.


Stan, 

I think you're mistaken on tax credits......you get them regardless of the taxes you pay. It's quite possible to pay zero tax, and the credit put you in a refund position for the total amount of the credit. Those very low income Americans with kids do it all the time with the "earned income credit". ( don't earn much income, the Feds send you free money )

A deduction is probably what you are thinking of when it comes to upper income folks. A deduction reduces your taxable income by the amount OF the deduction....so your taxes only go down by your tax rate times the deduction amount.


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

stanb999 said:


> Lets see if I have the math right...
> 590 watts a month is 59.00 dollars.
> 
> for his solar it cost 11,500... that is 70 dollars a month @ 4% for twenty years.
> ...



Hi,
I'm not really understanding your math.

Dougs system generates 5900 KWH (not watts) a year, or about 500 KWH a month.

IF you pay 10 cents a KWH, then thats about $600 a year saving -- this year.
Even if you paid the full $11K to put the system in with no rebates, the $600 is a 5.5% return on your money. 

If electricity goes up 5% a year, then that $600 will be nearly $1000 in 10 years -- so, its an investment that pays more each year.

You may not qualify for the federal tax rebate, but you should really find out what your state rebate programs are. This site is a good place to start: 
http://www.dsireusa.org/index.cfm

For example, Doug got a $1000 payment on hooking the system up, and his utility pays him 12 cents a KWH extra for each KWH his PV system generates.
Every state is different.

I'm not really trying to sell you on PV. I think that for most people working on energy consumption and getting efficiency up will payoff much better than going for PV. This was certainly true for us, and we basically paid for our PV system with the savings from other conservation, solar thermal projects -- PV was the last thing we did because its payback was not as good as the other energy saving projects.

Gary


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

TnAndy said:


> Stan,
> 
> I think you're mistaken on tax credits......you get them regardless of the taxes you pay. It's quite possible to pay zero tax, and the credit put you in a refund position for the total amount of the credit. Those very low income Americans with kids do it all the time with the "earned income credit". ( don't earn much income, the Feds send you free money )
> 
> A deduction is probably what you are thinking of when it comes to upper income folks. A deduction reduces your taxable income by the amount OF the deduction....so your taxes only go down by your tax rate times the deduction amount.


It's a non refundable tax credit. Which means you must owe the amount to claim it.

http://energystar.supportportal.com...rticle/19243/Is-the-tax-credit-non-refundable


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

haley1 said:


> Gary
> That is a great way to explain the solar with comparing to investing in stock market. Hopefully doing it this way will show more people what the benifits of solar are.
> 
> P.S. how the greenhouse coming? I am tossing around the idea of building one but with a vertical glass solar wall and solar water heat on the roof for nighttime heating. Actually been tossing around that idea for years but never get around to doing it. What are your thoughts on vertical, I probably get about the same sun as you being here about an hour east of the MREA. ..... sorry to change subject
> ...


Hi Gary,
I wanted to use the greenhouse first to see how well it would do as a low thermal mass sunspace for house heating, so the first set of tests on it were with no thermal mass at all in the space just to see how much heat it could produce -- http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Sunspace/LowMassSunspace/TestsLowMassSunspace.htm
This worked really well -- I think that low thermal mass sunspaces for space heating are the undiscovered gem of solar. 

So, now we are ready to give it a shot as an actual greenhouse, and I need to add thermal mass, make benches, etc. I don't think we will plant anything until mid March as we are out of town some of that time. This should be interesting as we a both total beginners at gardening.

--
I think vertical glazing works fine for solar space heating, but not so sure about as a 4 season garden. You might want to make a diagram and just see if plants that are a ways away from the glazing will get light when the sun is up higher in the sky.
I've also been thinking about ways to collect more solar to heat the plant beds.

Hoping to make the MREA next summer.

Gary


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

haley1 said:


> Gary
> How has your pv system done compared to what pv watts projects?
> Gary


Hi,
So far, the system has exceeded the original PVWatts estimates by a few percent each year.
This year it may not as it feels like its not been as sunny.

I think that PVWatts does a good job and is probably just a bit on the conservative side.

Gary


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

SolarGary said:


> Hi,
> I'm not really understanding your math.
> 
> Dougs system generates 5900 KWH (not watts) a year, or about 500 KWH a month.
> ...


So you were expecting folks to have 11 grand sitting in a pile in the backyard? My math was based on the reality that a home equity loan and payment would be required. That's why it costs 70 bucks a month for the 11,500 dollars. So you "lose" about 20 bucks. I did tell you about the "state" program. they give you a little cash 1/3 rd. But you MUST use a certified installer. So the system will cost around 20K. This of course is unless double digit inflation hits. Then the 20K payment of approx 140 would seem reasonable.

P.S. Doesn't matter what the government wants. IF people can't pay it it wont happen. Look to the folks over in Europe...

Greeks are burning the national forests in their fire places, Pensioners in England are dieing in the cold.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

stanb999 said:


> Let's take this a different way... Is even micro-solar worth while?
> 
> Take a 30 watt solar panel and a 7 watt bulb.
> 
> Can someone demonstrate how the panel above is cheaper than using grid power for this light?


I guess that my system could be considered a micro-solar system. (512 watts of panel, 4-6 volt golf cart batteries, a C-40 charge controller..)

Looking at todays costs, I figure I could purchase my solar panels for ~$650 including shipping. Charge controller for ~$120. Batteries for ~$90 each. ($360) ~$1130 so far..

Install and wiring would vary from install to install. In my install, I'll add another 1k.. ~$2130.. (High estimate to cover shipping costs?)

This is initial cost(s). If everything is installed properly and the charge controller is adjusted right, this system will last 8 yrs. beyond the cost of adding a little distilled water to the batteries now and then and a little battery connection maintenance.. (The family member thing..)

8 yrs. later, replace the batteries.. (Maybe $100/each) $400.. (Assuming no lightining strikes close by during that time..) Then it's just a charge controller.. :grin:

How you use the system is the important part. I only have a limited amount of energy to work with to keep my batteries healthy. That's where the frugal thing comes into play. I have everything that I need for a comfortable life and I, in no way, live in a cave. (TV/DVD in bedroom with amplified speakers, Tunes everywhere!, 24/7 vent fan on my bathroom facility, water pump(s), Computer anytime!, 74" projection TV/DVD system with hillbilly surround sound, All of the lights that anyone would need, Ect..Ect.. I'm just limited to how much power that I can use in a day..

Is it worth it... ? YEP! After the initial costs, ~$400 every 8 yrs... Beat That! :rock:


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Good post 12vman

This debate goes round and round and round.....

"I can't afford it (PV)" . . . .etc. etc.

I can just hear those same folks crying / whining when the grid goes down for a multitude of reasons . . . .or the KWH price goes really sky high................

It is very comforting to know that the system I started building many years ago will provide me with the comforts of electrical devices (life sustaining water for one) for a good while despite what the crazy insane idiots do in the washington district of crimminals....

Peace of mind . .???


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

12vman said:


> I guess that my system could be considered a micro-solar system. (512 watts of panel, 4-6 volt golf cart batteries, a C-40 charge controller..)
> 
> Looking at todays costs, I figure I could purchase my solar panels for ~$650 including shipping. Charge controller for ~$120. Batteries for ~$90 each. ($360) ~$1130 so far..
> 
> ...


512 X 4.5 = 2.3 KW per day. or about 23 cents...
23 cents X 365 = 83.95 a year.
83.93 X 8 = 671

$671 first 8 years of power. Do you agree?

Each year the panels will lose 1%. Am I correct?

Total "profit" for first 8 years is 271 dollars.

years 8-16
Panels produce on average 88% of peak or 450
450 X 4.5 = 2.0 KW a day or 20 cents.
73.00 X 8 = 584

Total "profit" for second 8 years is 184 dollars

Years 16-24
panels produce on average 80%
409 X 1.8 KW a day or 18 cents.
65.70 X 8 = 525 

Total "profit" for last 8 years is 125.00

Total profit over life of the system
years
1-8 271
9-16 184
17-24 125

total for life 
580 dollars - initial 2130 = -1550

or Invest $2130 for 24 years...
@ 1% you gain 577 
@ 2% 1,310.90
@ 3% 2,242



Looks like it is a very poor investment with a large negative return.

P.S. I did a quick spread sheet. 
You never get better than $1000 in the hole even at 66 years out. Then it starts the balance growing again.

It's here.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/125916177/solar


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

When considering 'profit' from a power system there may be many other costs your forgetting.

In my area, we live in forest. Whenever a person wants power from the grid, you must start by getting estimates for how many poles and how many miles of wire must be installed to reach your property. That is all 'private' power line.

It is not uncommon for the pole/wire installation to be more expensive than a stand-alone solar system.

Then after you get the poles/wire installed, you are still responsible for clearing trees every year back away from those lines. We live in forest. Every wind storm and every blizzard, naturally includes blow-downs. So either you must trim trees every summer, or else you will see blow-downs that take down your lines.

These are expenses that must be included. The Utility Company does not simply bring power to your homestead for free.

Then finally, you must include somewhere in your math; how many days EXACTLY do you expect the grid to be up on any given year. They do not run the grid 365 days/year. It is only up when the utility crews can clear their lines and get power to your line. From then until the next outage.

When I was shopping for land, most places I looked at would have required that I run pole/wire for 5+ miles to reach the property.

The property I ended up with, only needed two poles put in. So my 'private line' was less than $2,000. I am still responsible for keeping trees away from it. They can usually provide gird power 2 to 3 weeks at a time, between outages.

Here in our township, we have two residents who do not have utility line anywhere near their properties. It is cheaper for them to be off-grid, than it would be to install private power lines from the grid back in to their properties.

I am in town, you go out into the rural areas it gets worse.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

The power co. wanted 6k to run lines out here in '89. At that time, I had ~6k in everything, being solar was ~$5/watt. It was a personal choice.. Tie up to corporate or go it as a loner. I chose the independent road..

It has nothing to do with profit. I have control of my power and I don't worry about anyone or anything shutting it down. It also gives me a better insight of my environment, being the need to keep track of what mother nature gives me. She has her good and bad days and I need to adjust to her whims. It's something that most take for granted, especially during the winter..

Run the numbers any way you want but they'll never figure the mindset it takes to actually cut the umbilical cord and just do it..


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Me being the one in control of my own power has a lot to do with my decision to use solar. Extensive power outages on a frequent basis did sort of help nudge me in this direction as well. You can't put a price on peace of mind.


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

stanb999 said:


> 512 X 4.5 = 2.3 KW per day. or about 23 cents...
> 23 cents X 365 = 83.95 a year.
> 83.93 X 8 = 671
> 
> ...



PV panels don't continue to drop in power at that level year after year:

"Research from Switzerland: Still good after 20 years
The LEE-TISO testing centre for PV components at the University of Applied Sciences of Southern Switzerland installed Europeâs first grid-connected PV plant, a 10kW roof, in May 1982. They analysed the performance of the panels in 2002 and published the results in a scientific paper (Chianese et al, 2003). The PV plant was installed with 288 monocrystalline modules and an initial nominal plant power raring of 10.7kW, or an average of 37W peak rating per panel. Interestingly, when the panels were tested in 1983, the peak power output of the panels came to an average of 34W, 9% less than the initial rated peak output. This steep initial drop is normal â even with modern PV panels a loss of 5% over the first 12 months is not uncommon.

When the panels were tested in 2002, the average peak output of the panels was 32.9W â 11% lower than the nominal value in 1982 and only 3.2% lower than the measured value in 1983. In other words, between 1983 and 2002 the panels peak output had only degraded by around 0.2% per year since 1983 (0.5% per year against initial nominal rating)."


So, 12V is going to pay something like $3K or $4K for 30 years worth of electricity.

The average family in the US using 1000 KWH a month and now paying 10 cents a KWH and with 5% rise in electricity prices per year will end up paying $79,700 for 30 years with a bill in year 30 of nearly $5000. Sounds like 12V is doing OK to me.

Gary


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

SolarGary said:


> So, 12V is going to pay something like $3K or $4K for 30 years worth of electricity.
> 
> If he had the ability to use grid power it would have cost him 1500 less.
> 
> ...




What does the average families usage have to do with anything? Your comparing commuting on a moped with driving a family of 6 around in a minivan.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

12vman said:


> The power co. wanted 6k to run lines out here in '89. At that time, I had ~6k in everything, being solar was ~$5/watt. It was a personal choice.. Tie up to corporate or go it as a loner. I chose the independent road..
> 
> It has nothing to do with profit. I have control of my power and I don't worry about anyone or anything shutting it down. It also gives me a better insight of my environment, being the need to keep track of what mother nature gives me. She has her good and bad days and I need to adjust to her whims. It's something that most take for granted, especially during the winter..
> 
> Run the numbers any way you want but they'll never figure the mindset it takes to actually cut the umbilical cord and just do it..



From the first post on this thread...
"Now I realize independence has value that is impossible to measure, But important."

I agree that there is a great value to being independent.


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## Raven12 (Mar 5, 2011)

Passive solar, thermal mass, and insulation seem like basic and easy steps to saving energy. 

(I have so much research to do and not enough hours in the day!)


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

stanb999 said:


> What does the average families usage have to do with anything? Your comparing commuting on a moped with driving a family of 6 around in a minivan.


12V is a family and has found an approach that combines efficiency, a low cost PV system and some modest lifestyle changes that will save him tens of thousands of dollars in energy costs over the next couple decades compared to other average families -- anyone can take the same approach.


Gary


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

SolarGary said:


> 12V is a family and has found an approach that combines efficiency, a low cost PV system and some modest lifestyle changes that will save him tens of thousands of dollars in energy costs over the next couple decades compared to other average families -- anyone can take the same approach.
> 
> 
> Gary


What you say is kinda correct. Except the "modest" lifestyle changes part.

He can't have AC, A freezer and refrigerator, well pump, and he likely uses propane for things that electric is cheaper for like heating(geothermal), cooking, and water heating. 

Fact is unless Nat gas is available, grid electric is the next cheapest "energy".


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

stanb999 said:


> What you say is kinda correct. Except the "modest" lifestyle changes part.
> 
> He can't have AC, A freezer and refrigerator, well pump, and he likely uses propane for things that electric is cheaper for like heating(geothermal), cooking, and water heating.
> 
> Fact is unless Nat gas is available, grid electric is the next cheapest "energy".


Refrigerator/freezers are possible in off-grid homes, and well pumps are common.

'Cheapest' is only 'good' if you live urban enough to have access to the grid. 

Also what good is cheap on any given day, except for when your electric company feels like providing power. Otherwise the grid is useless.

I prefer power day after day after day.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

stanb999 said:


> What you say is kinda correct. Except the "modest" lifestyle changes part.
> 
> He can't have AC, A freezer and refrigerator, well pump, and he likely uses propane for things that electric is cheaper for like heating(geothermal), cooking, and water heating.
> 
> Fact is unless Nat gas is available, grid electric is the next cheapest "energy".


I have A.C. I just use it when necessary. I use a generator which cools my bedroom only. Granted, I use gasoline but maybe 10 gal. all summer..

I have a freezer/fridge combo. I also have a small camper fridge to keep beverages in so I don't have the need to open the bigger fridge as often..

I don't need a well pump because I collect rain water. It's at ground level so it's easy to move around with 12 volt Shurflo pumps..

I heat my water with a tankless water heater. I can run it normally, everyday, for 3 months on a #20 grill cylinder. I operate both fridges and my cook stove for 6-7 weeks on a #100 lb. cylinder. I could survive without the propane and the gasoline. They just provide me with a few luxuries..

I even have a microwave! I just fire up the genny, use it, and shut it down. Maybe 1/2 pint of gasoline..

I became "modest" by choice. I keep my system small "by choice". I could have a lot more toys and luxuries if I choose to but why? More stuff, more to take care of and I'm not getting any younger. I believe that I can still throw some golf cart batteries around for a while on my own..

Looking at it from dollars and cents, my system has paid for itself years ago.. (Just figuring a common electric bill every month..)

Right now I'm listening to XM Deep Tracks on my home brew stereo through a Sony armband FM rcvr. tuned to my yardcaster FM xmtr. frequency that fills the valley with some good jams. I have my home brew cold cathode fluorscent light fixture above my computer turned on and some wood in the wood burner getting me thawed out.. Might go outside and throw some bratwursts on the grill.. Life is good.. Later I'll take me a rain water shower! It don't get any better than that..

@512 watts, I'm at the bottom of the barrel compared to some but I know how to use it.. :dance:


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

stanb999 said:


> Your right in that this post is kinda focused on solar. Wind has about the same #'s also. One could use hydro, of course water front property costs more than no water... So is it really cheaper?
> 
> As for using wood. If your cutting your trees, your still losing money IMHO. They are worth more as timber generally. If your cutting "free" wood. As you note time can be an expensive proposition. I too enjoyed harvesting wood. I've switched to coal. I spend far less time and get better more even heat. Which means I consume less btu's per day. No up and down heating. The difference is so stark.. That if I was to continue processing wood and selling it. I could more than double my money in regards to the cost of coal.
> 
> ...


Glad the coal works for you. Personally, wood makes more sense for me. I have 80+ acres of woods. I could cut only down and sick wood and still have more than I could burn. That wood would have little or no timber value. Price of coal here is higher than what you pay. 

And then, of course, your scenario only makes sense if you actually ARE still cutting wood and selling it at a profit. If not, than you have just traded something you got yourself for something you have to pay someone else for. Rather than gain $600 per year, you have actually LOST $600 per year.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Darntootin said:


> Glad the coal works for you. Personally, wood makes more sense for me. I have 80+ acres of woods. I could cut only down and sick wood and still have more than I could burn. That wood would have little or no timber value. Price of coal here is higher than what you pay.
> 
> And then, of course, your scenario only makes sense if you actually ARE still cutting wood and selling it at a profit. If not, than you have just traded something you got yourself for something you have to pay someone else for. Rather than gain $600 per year, you have actually LOST $600 per year.


Sure, It is a loss, But It will pay back when I can harvest a few dozen $3000 dollar Cherry trees an acre in 15 years. Not to mention the hard maple and tight grain Ash.

IF I had more acreage I'd likely still be burning wood like you. I did it for 10 years.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

12vman said:


> I have A.C. I just use it when necessary. I use a generator which cools my bedroom only. Granted, I use gasoline but maybe 10 gal. all summer..
> 
> I have a freezer/fridge combo. I also have a small camper fridge to keep beverages in so I don't have the need to open the bigger fridge as often..
> 
> ...


Darn YOU! :nono:

Don't think I don't respect your life style. I do very much. 

My question or more complaint was and is when will it be cheap enough that simple poor folks that live a moderate life style like myself can afford it. It isn't workable for 98% of Americans. Some have more money than brains and pay the full freight. A few mavericks live a non-standard lifestyle. Hardly main stream. no?

I don't expect parity... But 3-4 times is hardy worth it unless some other important factor like cheap property far from the grid.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

"..when will it be cheap enough that simple poor folks that live a moderate life style like myself can afford it."

It is now if one would not expect a totally "normal lifestyle", as being connect to the grid, and remembering that it is an "alternative"..

You can afford it if you didn't expect everything that the grid has spoiled you with. If you had to supply all of your current toys and luxuries on your own, only then you would understand the need to be "modest".

If you can't justify the reason, then there's no need to try. Please don't take me as being condesending, I'm just looking at reason..

Everyone looks at it differently. Some go grid tie, some go with an alternating voltage system, and hardheads like me do the D.C. thing. Any way you look at it, it's an alternative and it isn't going to be easy or as cheap as the grid. That's what the masses are doing and anything outside of the box is going to be "different" in one way or another. Maybe costs or a lifestyle change, it ain't gonna be the same..

I had the new home with a perfect yard and a new van parked in the garage so I know what it's like on that side. I jumped ship by choice and never intend to turn back! It was the best move that I've ever made! Nothing can give me the feeling of freedom and security that I have acquired out here.. (Even if I poop in a bucket and pray that mother nature gives me some rain..) It's a mindset that can't be found unless one finds it. Once you find it, it's a beautiful thing..


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

stanb999 said:


> Sure, It is a loss, But It will pay back when I can harvest a few dozen $3000 dollar Cherry trees an acre in 15 years. Not to mention the hard maple and tight grain Ash.


Thats great but what are you doing with all your cull lumber? The down stuff that is rotting on the ground as we speak? Or the poor sickly growth that is better off culled and has little or no timber value? Or the low value timber? IMO a forest should be managed for optimum growth potential, that management requires cutting and culling.


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## justin_time (Dec 2, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> will it be cheap enough that simple poor folks that live a moderate life style like myself can afford it. It isn't workable for 98% of Americans. Some have more money than brains and pay the full freight. A few mavericks live a non-standard lifestyle. Hardly main stream. no?
> 
> I don't expect parity... But 3-4 times is hardy worth it unless some other important factor like cheap property far from the grid.


You have to define moderate, in fact if your serious you have to identify every load, and measure it (a killowatt meter is your friend) It has never been cheaper or easier to get set up, Panels are at well below 1 dollar a watt, I know I have seen prices of 60-75 cents a watt in the US. I paid 5-6 dollars a watt once! (years ago). 
The absolute waste, both by design,and by how power is used is stunning
You will discover this as you start useing a killowatt meter. I live rural, with panels and a wind turbine, been set up for years when it was hard, and more costly to do- now its a piece of cake by comparison.
I am over the next year setting up a home in the city to be the same way
using the knowledge I have learned.
For anyone thinking of going down this road dont spend a nickel, on anything other than a killowattmeter,use it to identify your loads, the time of demand, spend a year just experimenting in reducing your consumption. Reducing consumption does not mean going without anything!!
I live like a wastefull king on 300 amphrs or less than 4kwhs a day, but know others who use even less, and arnt going without anything.
The stunning waste that is built into how we live, and what we are encouraged to value is mind boggling....I could go on on how I have reduced my demand , but its not really helpfull as everyone, and their situation is different, and each person who is serious will discover how if they start down the path of useing a killowatt meter,and reducing load...

12vman, YOU ROCK , and know the score, wish I had neibours like you..ever think of moving to Canada?


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

good post justin time.......

Yes the Madison Ave. advertizing has done its job dumb ing down Joe Public into consumerism . . . . . . Bigger is more better . . . You ain't nobody unless you have the latest and greatest (and 'more bigger) this or that.
This all puts a total choke hold to reliance on the grid electric as the fuel for all this stuff to work..

Great grandpa and grandma survived ok without air conditioning in yester year...........
But today the world would come to an end if oh so many folks could NOT turn on the AC . .
Huge electric use . . . .can you live without it .?? . . . . .You decide . . . .

Only with the right mind set should you / can you go **off grid**


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

*freedom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

I have spent most of my adult life off the grid. A good portion of that just living with out and a good portion of that in a tent. And I consisider a couple of winters in a wall tent in Alaska the best years of my life.
Im older now, living of the grid with many more comforts in the Texas hill country. Living the dream!
Let me repeat my earlier post
*FREEDOM!!!!!!!!*


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## reubenT (Feb 28, 2012)

As has been said it depends on your situation in life, place of residence, attitude. and level of education. 
We live a half mile from a county road and about 2 miles from a 3 phase main line. If the line hadn't already been in place we would likely have never gotten it. Since even a half mile would have been too much money. But nevertheless I know and can see what is coming in our country and world, and it aint a pretty picture. A lot of the better educated wealthy people are leaving and they have good reason to do so. Tough times and unreliable resources are going to be the way of life before long. I've educated myself in many technical lines since I was 13, (late 1970's when I got started) being naturally technically curious. And I also am planning on building greenhouses for commercial food production. Reliable power is an absolute necessity for greenhouse operation. And we've had power down for weeks at a time after ice storms. So I want independent power. Been researching various ideas for years and experimenting. Consequently I'm on the verge of putting together my own small scale power plant using simple cheap technology that will generate a lot of power and pay for itself in a matter of weeks or a few months at most once the system is set up. (a zero pollution method by the way) I can feed it into the grid, get paid for it, and scale up with no upper limit. (Although to get very big with it I'd have to build a facility close to a substation) It will finance setting up my greenhouse and food growing operation, which once in operation will make it's own profit. And the power plant will be set up to switch off the grid and keep running my operation without pause when the outside power goes down. The only pause being the fraction of a second it takes for a relay to switch. So yah, abundant cheap power can be had, just takes a technical brain to do the research, find it and make it work. But once it's found it gets ridiculously simple and cheap.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

Back in the early 1970s we built a new super insulated house on some land a bit beyond the existing power lines. The utility quoted us a price of just over $3000 to bring in the power, with a minimum monthly bill of $20 (if I recall right, it might have been a higher monthly bill) for 20 years. We installed a rebuilt wind generator and battery system for less than that, so we figured it paid for itself as soon as we started using our own electricity. 
Now over 30 years later, we are still using the wind generator at a different place, and have added numerous PVs to the battery based system. Also, we added 2460 watts of grid-tied PVs late 2012 and are able to track the production of these panels and our total energy usage accurately. 
If I would have had my 2460 watts installed by a local PV contractor, he could have done it for $4 a watt, or about $10,000 total installed, complete. (It is a simple installation without a lot of complications). These panels are producing about 9kWhr a day, even now in the winter with snow and cloudy days. I have found through experience that output will increase most of the rest of the year. The 9kWhr is worth about 12cents a kWhr or over $1 a day, or over $365 a year. Figuring this as a return on a $10,000 investment, the rate of return is about 3.65%, better than money in the bank. And, since the annual output should actually be greater than this, and I actually spent less than $10,000 on the system, my return is more like 5.9% or a bit better. My PVs and the Enphase inverters have 25 year warranties, and nothing else in the system is likely to fail before that, so I think I made a good investment. 
When people ask if my PV system is going to pay for itself, I tell them, yes it is, a lot faster than your TV set, game console, snowmobile, SUV, or almost anything else they spend that kind of money on.

So here is my point:


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

WisJim said:


> Back in the early 1970s we built a new super insulated house on some land a bit beyond the existing power lines. The utility quoted us a price of just over $3000 to bring in the power, with a minimum monthly bill of $20 (if I recall right, it might have been a higher monthly bill) for 20 years. We installed a rebuilt wind generator and battery system for less than that, so we figured it paid for itself as soon as we started using our own electricity.
> Now over 30 years later, we are still using the wind generator at a different place, and have added numerous PVs to the battery based system. Also, we added 2460 watts of grid-tied PVs late 2012 and are able to track the production of these panels and our total energy usage accurately.
> If I would have had my 2460 watts installed by a local PV contractor, he could have done it for $4 a watt, or about $10,000 total installed, complete. (It is a simple installation without a lot of complications). These panels are producing about 9kWhr a day, even now in the winter with snow and cloudy days. I have found through experience that output will increase most of the rest of the year. The 9kWhr is worth about 12cents a kWhr or over $1 a day, or over $365 a year. Figuring this as a return on a $10,000 investment, the rate of return is about 3.65%, better than money in the bank. And, since the annual output should actually be greater than this, and I actually spent less than $10,000 on the system, my return is more like 5.9% or a bit better. My PVs and the Enphase inverters have 25 year warranties, and nothing else in the system is likely to fail before that, so I think I made a good investment.
> When people ask if my PV system is going to pay for itself, I tell them, yes it is, a lot faster than your TV set, game console, snowmobile, SUV, or almost anything else they spend that kind of money on.
> ...



Sure it pays if you otherwise would have used the money for dancing girls and parties... or worse a bass boat. :grin:

The issue with your math is you never get a return on your original investment. 6% return on the 10 grand would be 600 bucks yearly, and you still have the 10 grand. To get your 10 grand back 16 years is needed at your "rate" of production. Expected "life" of the panel is 25... You just never get there. You lose money. Like a "boat" a hole in the water to throw money!


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

reubenT said:


> As has been said it depends on your situation in life, place of residence, attitude. and level of education.
> We live a half mile from a county road and about 2 miles from a 3 phase main line. If the line hadn't already been in place we would likely have never gotten it. Since even a half mile would have been too much money. But nevertheless I know and can see what is coming in our country and world, and it aint a pretty picture. A lot of the better educated wealthy people are leaving and they have good reason to do so. Tough times and unreliable resources are going to be the way of life before long. I've educated myself in many technical lines since I was 13, (late 1970's when I got started) being naturally technically curious. And I also am planning on building greenhouses for commercial food production. Reliable power is an absolute necessity for greenhouse operation. And we've had power down for weeks at a time after ice storms. So I want independent power. Been researching various ideas for years and experimenting. Consequently I'm on the verge of putting together my own small scale power plant using simple cheap technology that will generate a lot of power and pay for itself in a matter of weeks or a few months at most once the system is set up. (a zero pollution method by the way) I can feed it into the grid, get paid for it, and scale up with no upper limit. (Although to get very big with it I'd have to build a facility close to a substation) It will finance setting up my greenhouse and food growing operation, which once in operation will make it's own profit. And the power plant will be set up to switch off the grid and keep running my operation without pause when the outside power goes down. The only pause being the fraction of a second it takes for a relay to switch. So yah, abundant cheap power can be had, just takes a technical brain to do the research, find it and make it work. But once it's found it gets ridiculously simple and cheap.


Appeal to authority? Only the highly educated would spend 100 thousand for a salary slightly higher than average. ROI for a collage education for the last 15 years has been highly negative. Hardly a sign of thinking ahead or knowledge of math.


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> Sure it pays if you otherwise would have used the money for dancing girls and parties... or worse a bass boat. :grin:
> 
> The issue with your math is you never get a return on your original investment. 6% return on the 10 grand would be 600 bucks yearly, and you still have the 10 grand. To get your 10 grand back 16 years is needed at your "rate" of production. Expected "life" of the panel is 25... You just never get there. You lose money. Like a "boat" a hole in the water to throw money!


Actually expected life of pv panels themselves is over 50 years, I know several people that went off the grid in early 70's and those same panel still work with only a few percentage of degrading. The industry warranties panels at half expected life.

While doing your math you forgot to include increasing price of future energy, for example 10 years ago I was paying 8 cents a kwh now I pay 14 cents so for a long term investment it is a very good investment


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

haley1 said:


> Actually expected life of pv panels themselves is over 50 years, I know several people that went off the grid in early 70's and those same panel still work with only a few percentage of degrading. The industry warranties panels at half expected life.
> 
> While doing your math you forgot to include increasing price of future energy, for example 10 years ago I was paying 8 cents a kwh now I pay 14 cents so for a long term investment it is a very good investment


The expected life of panels is 30 years. There is more to degrade than just the silicon.

Inflation is an issue. Grid power is still cheap tho.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

stanb999 said:


> The expected life of panels is 30 years. There is more to degrade than just the silicon.
> 
> Inflation is an issue. Grid power is still cheap tho.


Grid power is only an option on the days when you are urban enough to have it available to your property, and when the grid is up.



I have three neighbors who are off-grid because the expense of buying easements and installing private power lines to their homes is far too expensive.

I am 'on-grid' but it only works on the days when the grid is up.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

ET1 SS said:


> Grid power is only an option on the days when you are urban enough to have it available to your property, and when the grid is up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course grid power isn't viable everywhere. But it is most everywhere.

Where it isn't the property value/tax offset more than pays the difference. Shall we discuss that? I know what property costs up in the unincorporated townships.  But for 99% of the people alternatives just aren't viable options. Believe me. I wish they were. I'd do it in a heart beat if they would break even or close. Just for the piece of mind. 4x the cost? not so much.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

stanb999 said:


> The expected life of panels is 30 years. There is more to degrade than just the silicon..


No, life expectancy is at least twice the warranty period, which is 20 to 25 years, so the panels should last 40 to 50 years. My 32 year old panels haven't lost enough output for me to measure.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

stanb999 said:


> . Just for the piece of mind.



That's why I put mine in. As backup power. We've been thru power outages of several weeks, and decided that isn't a place we want to be.

Can one justify a whole house generator that sits there unused for years ? No, until commercial power isn't available. Then price isn't a much of an issue.


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

I am not going with my AC in the Georgia summers...I can skate by without many things, but AC come before lights in my house!


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

How much money do you have in the stock market? What kind of monthly dividend does it pay?
We took our money out of the stock market and put it into our off grid system. Figure it out, a lot of persons round these parts average 200 bucks a month elec bill. Thats my monthly dividend. Wall street can screw up again, any bets ? But my investments will be worth just as much or more. I sleep at night a lot better now that my retirement is working for me right her on the homestead making electricity for my 50" tv, computer, ac, pool and oh yeah a bunch more is grazing out there in the pasture Grass fed ribeye anybody?


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

I think 8 years on golf cart batteries is stretching it...maybe 4 if used daily.


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

wannabechef said:


> I think 8 years on golf cart batteries is stretching it...maybe 4 if used daily.


I just replaced mine. I had 4 in use daily. Installed in 9-2004. They have been going south for the last year or so. I noticed the charge was getting shallow. (Charging too soon) Achieving the bulk voltage sooner than normal and dropping voltage quicker..

Yeah, I wore them out.. LOL

It's all in how you care for them..


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Alaska said:


> How much money do you have in the stock market? What kind of monthly dividend does it pay?
> We took our money out of the stock market and put it into our off grid system. Figure it out, a lot of persons round these parts average 200 bucks a month elec bill. Thats my monthly dividend. Wall street can screw up again, any bets ? But my investments will be worth just as much or more. I sleep at night a lot better now that my retirement is working for me right her on the homestead making electricity for my 50" tv, computer, ac, pool and oh yeah a bunch more is grazing out there in the pasture Grass fed ribeye anybody?


Well, None. See I'm a family man and homesteading fella. The market has no purpose for me. I'm not a gambler. Buying solar power is an even worse investment than the market. At least in the market you have a chance of break even or better. 

If you bill is 200 a month your solar installation will cost 50 grand. For that kind of cash you can do a lot of investing. Property rentals, small business, hi value livestock. All capable of returning more than a measly 200 a month.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

TnAndy said:


> That's why I put mine in. As backup power. We've been thru power outages of several weeks, and decided that isn't a place we want to be.
> 
> Can one justify a whole house generator that sits there unused for years ? No, until commercial power isn't available. Then price isn't a much of an issue.


Oh, I just learned to live without much use for power outages. The only things that run are the freezers, fridge, and the TV.:sing: We don't "need" power for the rest of daily living. I have a 3000w generator, it cost 500 bucks. It uses approx. 2 gallons of gas a day(we only run it at night). With two weeks of outages a year it would cost 28 gallons of gas or just north of 110 dollars a year... If you have a monthly bill of 200 a month. It's about a wash.  Tho, you have to learn to live with "less". Kinda like living on alternative power.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> Well, None. See I'm a family man and homesteading fella. The market has no purpose for me. I'm not a gambler. Buying solar power is an even worse investment than the market. At least in the market you have a chance of break even or better.
> 
> If you bill is 200 a month your solar installation will cost 50 grand. For that kind of cash you can do a lot of investing. Property rentals, small business, hi value livestock. All capable of returning more than a measly 200 a month.


 50 Grand dont buy It. We have less than thirty and run evrything. microwav, washer dryer, freezers(full of grass fed beef) , tv, dvr, comp, well, charger for the golf car.
What is 30 gran gonna be worth in the stock market or just currency for that matter. what the hell are you gonna do when the grid goes down


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Alaska said:


> 50 Grand dont buy It. We have less than thirty and run evrything. microwav, washer dryer, freezers(full of grass fed beef) , tv, dvr, comp, well, charger for the golf car.
> What is 30 gran gonna be worth in the stock market or just currency for that matter. what the hell are you gonna do when the grid goes down


no? Lets see what http://www.findsolar.com/ has to say...

Yep, 48 thousand after incentives. 79 grand before. All to "save" 200 a month. (this is just uses the default settings. In the American heartland.) 














P.S. The land I live on and the house I live in was a homestead for more than 100 years before electric power. I figure if the early settlers could eek out a living so can I. I have no idea how most in the deep south will cope once the A/C and fridges full of sweet tea stop.


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## Gritty (Nov 26, 2012)

I am by no means an expert---never crunched numbers, etc... But I did grow up off grid and I knew we didn't have a lot of extra $$ to be throwing around. Where we lived we: a) couldn't afford to have the lines brought up c) my folks had a back-to-the-land mentality and wanted to give it their best go---

I do know my dad lucked out in getting a bunch of battery banks from a train. We had wind and solar. In upstate ny= not a tremendous amount of winter power. So we used propane for refrigeration and some lighting. Woodstove was our only source of heat. Oil lamps in the bedrooms and a Coleman lantern for practicing the piano (oil was too dim to see the sheet music). 

I don't know that they saved a lot of money, but I think growing up that way was good for me. I feel like i am pretty capable of living with very little if need be. And my time wasn't filled with a lot of tv and junk, so I read and played piano (and got pretty good at both.


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## justin_time (Dec 2, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> no? Lets see what http://www.findsolar.com/ has to say...
> 
> Yep, 48 thousand after incentives. 79 grand before. All to "save" 200 a month. (this is just uses the default settings. In the American heartland.)
> 
> ...


Wow, Havent checked this thread in a while, First this isnt directed at at Stan as such, I would never try to encourage someone fully convinced he cant do something economicaly,to try, rather this is for someone thinking about going down the path of solar power. 
Stay away from online calculators, stay away from installed packages,stay away from everyone telling what you need. Decide To instal your own, You will be your own warranty, and customer support. Get a killowatt meter, use it. 
Absoute first grade panels I know can be bought for 70, 80 cents a watt.
Lets say you are a wastfull pig who wants to use lots of power. 4000 watts of panels would cost [email protected] cents 3000.00 dollars. a charge controler like a midnight classic 150, maybe have to go to a 200 would be something like 700.00 depending on batteries and make your own interconnects lets allow 2500.00, now for a inverter lots of kinds, and power ratings budget 2500.00 for a kick ass one, and there is all your major components for 8900.00!! (I can do it for even less). Round up to 10,000 for other little bits.

There can be other things depending on circumstances but right there is the lions share of of all your costs, for a very good system, This is a major system, not minor at all. 79,000 is for those who cant do, cant figure it out, cant get it done,Cant improvise, and arnt going to try.

One guy down the road from me runs his place, full size fridge, I think a small frezer, sat tv, stereo, lights, microwave, all the normal applianes like computer, toaster, popcorn maker.All off 1kw of 12 volt panels and 1200 amp hours of t105's, 3 kids in the house Goes without nothing. Now nov, dec,jan,and feb he does have to run the generator for charging, but if he would add more panels, or a wind turbine he could likely reduce the generator time way down.
Its not about the size of your system, rather what you do with it.
Systems can cost 79,000 out there only because there are people who believe thats what it costs.......


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

$79,000 is a lot of money.

Our system when it is finished should total around $8,000 to put us off-grid.

No more electric bills, and finally we hope to have electricity every day, all month long, every month.


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## justin_time (Dec 2, 2012)

ET1 SS said:


> $79,000 is a lot of money.
> 
> Our system when it is finished should total around $8,000 to put us off-grid.
> 
> No more electric bills, and finally we hope to have electricity every day, all month long, every month.


Yes, thats likely using first rate everything. Its just never, ever been more afordable. Often plug and play components. 

Now with the example I gave thats a first rate system, but if that is more than you want to spend you can still achieve a great system for much less, and take this from someone who doesnt like to spend a nickel more than I have to, and i am going to use today prices, for those who are cheap like me.
First speak with a panel manufacturer, or importer. Tell them straight up you need 2500 watts of panels (or whatever amount), will pay cash, and want B grade. Now they may not sell to you direct as they could have retailers, but if they wont sell direct they can send you to one of there retailers, and if you have indicated you are price sensitive they will likely refer you to one who has good pricing, and again tell the retailer you will pay cash. B grade, are panels that flash electricaly 100%, only thing is they may have cosmetic irrgularities, I have found that just means to much silicone squessed out onthe backside, no big deal, current price (last 30 days) .61 cents per watt, so thats 1525.00 for 2500 watts. A serious amount of power. 
For a charge controler get a C60 or there about maybe two, assuming two at 120.00 each thats 240.00. Now for cables, contactors, fuse holders, diodes and all kinds of great parts head to your local scrap metal dealer, and ask him to point you to the junked electric fork lifts, a absolute gold mine of parts, my nearest one lets me just help myself to the electrical parts (i do buy lots of metal from him though). Bet you can get all you can carry for 20.00 cash.
Now for a inverter You can pick up a new 1800 watt (3000surge) pure sign wave for 900-1000, but as this example is for cost, go with the largest mod sign wave Canadian tire sells,I think it to is 1800 watt with 3000 plus surge( for 10 minutes). regular price is something like 400 but its on sale every few months for 250.00, now I dont normaly recommend mod sign wave but this is a good bullet proof unit, been running my neibours place for 13 years, and I have scooped the output wave form and its a good multi step.

So that comes to 2015.00 Now add a battery bank of whatever size you want lets just say 1000 amp/hrs- 1500.00+
So that comes to 3515.00.
If you are building any place out in the country this price is likely cheaper than what it would cost you to put in a power pole and run the line to the road. I know what I have recomended is not perfect in many ways but a example of a system done cheaply that will get you power independant for most needed things at a reasonable cost. Before anyone beats me up about not having a large enough battery capacity, its good for 300 amphrs a day(3.5kwhrs) and if solar power is short during the day just hammer them back up in the evening with the genny.
Lots of ways to skin this cat, I paid more than this amount just for my panels (used) back in 2001. IT HAS NEVER BEEN MORE AFFORDABLE!
NEVER EASIER.The real question is why is anyone still hooked up to the grid? I should add you really need to be heating with wood too, as a furnace blower motor could eat through 2 kwhrs by itself on a cold day, and these are real today prices in Canada with likely hidden taxes built in so those of you in the states can do it even cheaper I am sure....

Oh I should add I ofcourse dont know about legal/insurance requirements(if you care about such things) for your area, I can only say up to 2012 in Alberta, any home owner can pull their own permit to work on their own home, call an inspector when done, just that simple. I had to have a place intown inspected last year as I upgraded a service, and trenched a line to the garage, and I explained to the inspector at the time that I was eventually going to be taking this house off the grid and wanted to be sure I was doing everything right.. He said if its completely unhooked from the line he wouldnt fail any system, and didnt know any inspector who would. He only cared that the components were csa or ul,installed as per manufacturers instructions, and he would want attention paid to proper grounding.Other than that, keep it neat. He did advise me that there were new requirements coming out in 2013 or 2014, but could not comment on them as he hadnt seen them yet. My impression was that for homeowners doing their own thing, they dont much care, but its a different story, if you are selling your services to install systems for people, or are hooked to the grid, and this pulling permits, and inspections is really just for insurance reasons, If you dont care about such things, then just do what you want.... Its almost imposible to do wrong, its only Two wires! (dc side), I cant even imagine how someone could screw it up! Again for thoses who havent touched electrical systems, its DC, again two wires! You cant get it wrong! Dont be afraid to try....


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

justin_time said:


> Yes, thats likely using first rate everything. Its just never, ever been more afordable. Often plug and play components. ...


I agree.

PV efficiency slowly creeps up every year. Never before have PV panels been this efficient.

PV price-per-watt creeps down every year. Never before have PV panels been this cheap.

Charge-Controller / Invertors are getting better and more innovative every year. An installer was telling me about MPPT technology, that is great stuff. Now it is pretty much available on all systems.


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## justin_time (Dec 2, 2012)

ET1 SS said:


> $79,000 is a lot of money.
> 
> Our system when it is finished should total around $8,000 to put us off-grid.
> 
> No more electric bills, and finally we hope to have electricity every day, all month long, every month.





ET1 SS said:


> I agree.
> 
> PV efficiency slowly creeps up every year. Never before have PV panels been this efficient.
> 
> ...


Yes, and the great thing is those mppt controlers can extract near the full wattage available from the panels, and if im not misstaken ones like the Midnight classic have grounding, arc fault, and disconnecting features that meet your code requirments built right in, saving on other components, and wiring. Though I dont understand panel pricing, as even for China prices a below a dollar a watt make no sense, I believe thats below the cost of manufacture.
Its crazzy, I dont know how long it will continue, cant see it going on at these prices, I am wondering if companies arnt just using up there inventory of raw materials, and blowing product out the door before they shut down. I am not complaining, rather buying all I can afford right now, but the other shoe has to drop at some point.
I also wonder how long power companies will allow it to continue, they have a lot to lose if people start switching to off grid, I am doing the place in town this year, and both neibors seen me unloading panels and chatted with me, about what I am doing, couldnt believe the low cost, and if my system works they want me to help them get set up..


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

justin_time said:


> Yes, and the great thing is those mppt controlers can extract near the full wattage available from the panels, and if im not misstaken ones like the Midnight classic have grounding, and disconnecting features that meet your code requirments built right in, saving on other components, and wiring.


Right 





> ... Though I dont understand panel pricing, as even for China prices a below a dollar a watt make no sense, I believe thats below the cost of manufacture.
> 
> Its crazzy, I dont know how long it will continue, cant see it going on at these prices, I am wondering if companies arnt just using up there inventory of raw materials, and blowing product out the door before they shut down. I am not complaining, rather buying all I can afford right now, but the other shoe has to drop at some point.


The USA dumped a huge sum of money into setting up 'Evergreen' to operate; then the German government subsidized PV manufacture. They wanted 100% of German homes to be self-supporting, and a high percentage of homes, businesses, schools, hospitals are self-supporting now. But all of those subsidies ran Germany into debt, and their nation folded. Leaving warehouses filled with PV panels, un-used and 60% of production cost had already been paid for. So they have been put on the market for 55cents/watt - 75cents/watt.

Anyone who refused to buy at those prices was an idiot.

When our president gave a huge grant to Solyndra, they knew ahead of time that they could not actually manufacture panels at a competitive price. But the move was politics. Dump a $Billion$ to be seen 'boosting' the green economy and all. The day they opened, they closed. There is no way in the USA to make solar panels, comply with EPA regulations, and to be competitive.

Refining exotic heavy metals is hugely toxic and produces far more pollution then most people understand. It works in Mexico and China, because there are very little pollution laws in those locations. But California? LOL



When there are subsidies that governments are willing to hand to the manufacturers, then there will be below-cost products on the market.

In the case of Evergreen, the subsidies caused market prices to drop.

In the case of Solyndra, no product was ever produced. The only people who benefited were the construction workers and the CEO.


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## Rick (May 10, 2002)

stanb999 said:


> Let's take this a different way... Is even micro-solar worth while?
> 
> Take a 30 watt solar panel and a 7 watt bulb.
> 
> Can someone demonstrate how the panel above is cheaper than using grid power for this light?


We have no power hook up or bill. Arco panel was made in 1970's - passed on free with the property. CF bulb bought marked down to 3 dollars. Inverter 30 dollars. Battery - Subaru starting battery pulled out of auto service 12 months ago, and revitalized with 16 volts of good old fashioned sunshine.

It provides 60 watts in sun and for a couple hours thereafter, for a laptop, DSL or cell hotspot, and of course the light. 

We have a niftier, over-sized set-up for the Sundanzer and Misc. use , along with 3 more of those Arco panels run into two, 6 year old deep cycle batteries (EverStart) that won't quit. Extra for movies, laptop, lights and recharging all of the above.

We have saved at least 20 thousand dollars in 7 years I'd say, of course our power demands have stopped being so demanding. 

Around here we get our power from little manila envelopes.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

freedom and self reliance whats it worth


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## TxGypsy (Nov 23, 2006)

Something I don't think anyone else has mentioned is equity. I have equity in a solar system. If the components are still functioning, I can re-sell them for at least a portion of the original purchase price. If I spend $8,000 on a solar set up, I can recover part of that money if I sell my system. If I spend $8,000 to get grid power to my house, I'll never be able to recover any of that money, and I'll get to pay an electric bill for however long I live there.


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

stanb999 said:


> no? Lets see what http://www.findsolar.com/ has to say...
> 
> Yep, 48 thousand after incentives. 79 grand before. All to "save" 200 a month. (this is just uses the default settings. In the American heartland.)
> 
> ...



Baloney.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Darntootin said:


> Baloney.


tell me where i can have the system installed for less or even better for the cost of 200 a month. Has to be parity...

13K in panels, inverter, inspected for grid tie. Your comment isn't helpful at all.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I have never heard of anyone spending so much money on a system.


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## justin_time (Dec 2, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> tell me where i can have the system installed for less or even better for the cost of 200 a month. Has to be parity...
> 
> 13K in panels, inverter, inspected for grid tie. Your comment isn't helpful at all.


Stanb, 

I see your frustration, first you really need to forget that on line calculator.
That stupid thing is to help the power company, look at who authored it, the power company themself!!. Its structured to discourage you from even trying, and if you do try, to extract as much money from you as possible, and still keep you tethered to them. Lets look at it piece by piece.

1529kwhrs a month is what they say is the usage divide by 30 days in a month and you get 51 kwhrs a day, thats nuts, I dont know anyone using that, do you? look at your own bill, do you use that?

They imply you need 13kw in panels, now looking at just the typical average electrical consumption of a single family home,its 25 to 32 kwhrs a day depending on the study, lets just say 30 for our purposes. Well with that size of array you are going to make all the power you need in 2hrs or a little more. Thats nuts, way more panels than you need ( at greater cost).
Thats why people are calling bs on that calculator and its pricing, and why on earth you would go grid tie, makes no sense to me, but it sure benifits the power company if you do!
Also I understand not everyone enjoys seeing how low they can reduce their usage like I do, but with even the most modest attempts, at energy conservation, and management that typical 30 kwhr/day measurement could be cut in half so easly to 15 kwhrs/day people would not even notice it.
You seem not to want to do any of the work yourself so you will pay through the nose to have it all done for you. 
Go with a modest array, I bet 3000 watts is pleanty (you dont say where you are) get rid of 240 volt loads, Gas stove only, if you wont do the work yourself, hire a electrcian (as opposed to a larger company) who can pull permits and call for a inspection. I really see being grid tie as playing against the house so to speak, and I advise eveyone to cut them right out.
I should add the money you save not buying the extra 10kw in panels put to a modest wind turbine to augment your power when the suns not shineing, 

(Just think of the costs for mounting hardware, wiring, connectors, for 10kw of unneeded panels, its nuts)


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

It's that kind of propaganda that scares folks away from the alternatives..


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## justin_time (Dec 2, 2012)

stannb,

I did some checking, as usual these costs are likely more than you would pay in your country, and your dollar is higher so that again means you would pay less in your country, and these prices are complete everything, and grid tye (that costs you easly 2 , 3 or 4 times more) that you insist on....

A 3kw system 5.72 installed per watt. The size I ballparked 17,000

A 4kw system 5.07 installed per watt. 20,200


A 10 kw system..3.97.......................39,700 (largest they do)

Take maybe 15 percent off these prices for USA.

Thats no discounts full retail, if you have discounts for your area apply them.

I would say thats roughly 50 percent of what your "helpful" power company is telling you.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

justin_time said:


> stannb,
> 
> I did some checking, as usual these costs are likely more than you would pay in your country, and your dollar is higher so that again means you would pay less in your country, and these prices are complete everything, and grid tye (that costs you easly 2 , 3 or 4 times more) that you insist on....
> 
> ...




Heres the deal,

In Pennsylvania, if you do the work yourself. You don't get any subsidy. No, cost share. No green credits. You can grid tie but it must be inspected. With out grid tieing solar has a strong negative cash flow, for starters, the batteries cost more than the electric they store. So if you do it yourself you pay the full freight. Stupid, I know. But it is the way it is. I do everything myself. I have never had a contractor work on my house. 

Federal subsidies being as they are you get the benefit if you pay taxes. I make above average income, but with 3 kids I pay no taxes. Which is more than fair. But the price structure due to the subsidies makes it very expensive.

The size of the system. Where I live, On the highest ridge south east of the great lakes, It is foggy or overcast most of the fall,winter, and spring. It's rainy/snowy. We get around 60" of precipitation a year. We get about the same moisture each week with just a bit less in summer, bit more in spring and fall.
Sizing the system for 2 hours a day would be prudent. Maybe three hours a day would be more realistic tho. 

1500 Kwatts a month, is high. I would expect something around 1000 Kwatts. The point is tho. 1500 watts cost 200 a month in a bill. 1000 watts cost around 130 or so. Costs don't favor it. The disparity is easier to see with a larger system that is why I'm focusing on it. For instance a led light in a far flung outbuilding seems reasonable. 30-40 dollars. But it isn't the cost of grid electric that is the issue. It's location. That little light using 100-200 milli-amps an hour would not be noticed on your bill by even the most ardent.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

What would work for me? Wind. Of course the cost is out there.

I have 11-12 average wind speed. In actuality it's more like 20 and 3. If it's windy it's windy. Enough that deciduous trees fail to grow well in the direction of the average wind. for me north,north,west.

The local hurdles. 
Large trees, means the tower hight must be higher than 30 meters, 40 would be prudent. Towers this size have signifgant cost.

We have almost no local zoning or land use provisions, except for wind towers. Republicans. :flame: Basically one per land owner, location is reasonable in that they just don't want it to fall on land of another, you have to tell your neighbors and advertise for a public meeting(noise is the issue here). The regulations are geared towards large companies and wind farms, not farmers and land owners. 

All the same issues apply as far as grid tie and monies from the state and federal governments.

The above makes it so I would need a tall tower, 25K and a large generator, 25 k.
For a total in the range of 50K before subsidy. 
Subsidies it would get it to be around 25K, 
I'd get 7500 direct and green energy credits for the difference.
To "save" the same 150 a month it costs 25K.


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## Conhntr (Aug 7, 2010)

Guys if solar was a good financial investment there would be companies out there offering to intall it for free, then charging a monthly fee that is less than your current electric bill. If the return is better than the stock market there would be a ton of capital interested in this. Even with all the incentives/rebates/subsidies i do not believe this is the case? 

Of course every situation is different. Despite the fact that it does not make financial sense to cut the cord there are situations where it makes sense mostly in areas of No utilities/unreliable utilities. 

Of course this argument could be made against the whole idea of homsteading in general. We all know you can work a minum wage job for 1 hour a day and make enough to buy more food off the dollar menu then you can possibly eat in a day. But for a variety of reasons we are willing to go theough the trouble of growing our own food despite the fact that it does not make economic sense to do so. 

Same goes for soloar, but to try to convince people it is cheaper (except in rare cases it wont be) is not helpful. Argue on its merits just as you would a pasture raised chicken vs chicken mc uggets.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I want nothing to do with the gobermint having their hand in my pocket . . . .So I could care less about those phony *subsidies* 

I do renewable energy for my own self.......
.
Sure is nice to have the convenience of my 'electrical' items. while the storm or what ever has knocked down the grid........

Stan......I have never installed a tower less than 30 meters . . and I have done several 40 meter turbine towers...................
yes you have to put it up where the real wind is.........


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Jim-mi said:


> I want nothing to do with the gobermint having their hand in my pocket . . . .So I could care less about those phony *subsidies*
> 
> I do renewable energy for my own self.......
> .
> ...


What is the real cost of a 40 meter tower? I keep trying to locate an approximation. But they are all so expensive that they seem like the above quotes for solar. Are they really 20+ thousand? I was thinking of a 6-10k size generator. I know the tower cost has a lot to do with the size of the turbine.

If the tower cost is closer to 15, the generator head can be had for about the same. With the subsidies it would be reasonable to hook it up even with the bank loan that would be required.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

I so enjoy turning on every light when the grid is down. W live on a hilltop and can see and bee seen for miles and miles.
WE did a lot of the work ourselves but have also found an installer that works with us and guides us in the right direction.
He likes grass fed beef and makers mark. I try to never run out of either.


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

Conhntr said:


> Guys if solar was a good financial investment there would be companies out there offering to intall it for free, then charging a monthly fee that is less than your current electric bill. If the return is better than the stock market there would be a ton of capital interested in this. Even with all the incentives/rebates/subsidies i do not believe this is the case?
> 
> Of course every situation is different. Despite the fact that it does not make financial sense to cut the cord there are situations where it makes sense mostly in areas of No utilities/unreliable utilities.
> 
> ...



Actually there are a few companies out there, wish I could remember names, only located in a few states


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## Conhntr (Aug 7, 2010)

haley1 said:


> Actually there are a few companies out there, wish I could remember names, only located in a few states


Im genuinely curious if you can remember. Off hand where the monthly payments LESS than the grid-elctric bill?


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

So much depends on the type of tower you want....
Mono pole
Free standing
Guyed lattice 
Of course it must have an engineering stamp as to the loads it will carry

And because of the most wonderful bunch of criminals and idiots in washington dc, the price of steel has shot up the price of towers...and turbines.......

So yes 25K would be very easy to spend on a tower......
Much more for a mono-pole... ..


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Jim-mi said:


> So much depends on the type of tower you want....
> Mono pole
> Free standing
> Guyed lattice
> ...


That is what i figured. total of 40k just makes it too darn expensive.


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

http://www.solarcity.com/residential/solar-lease.aspx

http://www.sungevity.com/go-solar

Here are a few, more out there Google solar lease


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

. . WOW . . . some more of that lease crap......

BUYER BEWARE.........

dare to read the fine print.............
/'
those outfits are not your friends

they are in it only to make many bucks.......................


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

Jim-mi said:


> . . WOW . . . some more of that lease crap......
> 
> BUYER BEWARE.........
> 
> ...


Come on Jim, corporations are our friends and can be completely trusted:banana:


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

justin_time said:


> stannb,
> I did some checking, as usual these costs are likely more than you would pay in your country, and your dollar is higher so that again means you would pay less in your country, and these prices are complete everything, and grid tye (that costs you easly 2 , 3 or 4 times more) that you insist on....
> 
> A 3kw system 5.72 installed per watt. The size I ballparked 17,000
> ...


That sounds about right in this area.


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## superduty5.9 (Feb 6, 2013)

I am very interested in solar and other AE. I would like to someday be off grid. I have 3 kids and a wife. I know we could reduce alot without even trying. If I replaced the stove and water heater with LPG it would take a load off my bill. I live in the sticks and don't have access to natural gas. Would a LPG dryer be cost effective. My wife already hangs clothes to dry outside when possible but what about rainy or cold days. If I got rid of those 220v devices the only thing left is the well pump. I have a 2100 sf house. I know there are alot of factors but what would be a ballpark figure for me on a system. How many watts?


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi,
You are on the right track with trying hard to get your current electric usage down first. 

One thing you might consider if your house is suited to it is to build a low thermal mass sunspace off the south side of the house. This would provide some free heat and would also give you a four season place to dry clothes without an electric dryer.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Sunspace/sunspaces.htm#LowMassSS

I would work first on getting more efficient with your electricity use, insulating and sealing the house -- both of these normally have good paybacks. 

Gary


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## DSBlack (Apr 7, 2013)

I don't think I have ever seen an argument more thoroughly worried.


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## Allen15 (Apr 18, 2013)

In the urban environment I now am in, wind is not an option, but I've considered solar seriously, because I believe that it probably *IS* worth it in the long run, if one is willing to do it for the long-run, in a stable environment (do you really OWN the land you're on? Is your southern exposure safe from long-term development?).

In my area, I've discovered by studying my utility bills, that my real cost of electricity from the public utility monopoly is about $0.15/Kwh, & if I don't charge myself labor to install it, I'm pretty sure I can beat that, although it starts to come down to going large enough to succeed, or giving up and not fighting the system.

Going completely off-grid can pay for itself & if your initial labor cost is low or zero, the ROI period can even be less than 5 yrs.

Going grid-tie is required to gain tax credits, etc., and as far as OUR local regulations go, the only part of the system that has to be professionally installed, inspected, etc., is the grid-tied inverter and utility cut-off switch.

The problem with going small & grid-tie, is that many local utility companies have stacked that deck against the little guy, because they will enough strings on it to force one to spend much more money, but they will at the same time, restrict the size of your solar array to a small enough capacity that you won't pay for it over a 20+ year time period. You get a huge hole in your bank account, you get to patch it up a little with the tax credits, you get a warm fuzzy feeling about doing something environmentally good, and you still end up paying much more than if you never bothered with it...

Our local electric co. program limits the size of the array to 2 Kw capacity, although our usage is above 4 Kw/hr on a monthly average, so the best a 2 Kw system could do would be to cut our bill by about 25% divided by the insolation factor  ... Not worth the costs to have their licensed & blessed contractor/installers do it.

One can however, apply to become part of the grid suppliers at various tiers, and for our area, tier 1 is anything up to 10 Kw. There is an application fee, and more inspections, but that would entitle you to possibly selling alternative energy credits to the utility company (another possible income stream I didn't know existed before digging into this mess). You would need to be grid-tied, so that an independent 3rd party can monitor your production, but the kicker is, that you don't even have to actually sell power back to the grid, just be connected to it for metering and monitoring!

That's right, if you have the right spot of land where you could build this, you could produce 100% of your electricity, use all of it, instead of selling it back to the grid, and then sell the UT company warm-fuzzy alternative energy credits that they can use in their annual reports to show how they're "investing x$ in alternative energy sources"... You don't really think that the utility company is actually going to go out and build all those wind farms, or solar arrays that their reports show them "spending money" on, do you?? That's how they get around it, and since it is strictly based on actual production of energy, they have a total risk of ZERO to do it that way.

If you are willing and able to work the system, YES, it can be worth it, but like anything with a payback, it is likely to be hard work at times.

Getting back to my local example, I think my spreadsheet came up with the following numbers:

My local monthly electric bill is about $290/month, which could be cut some by conservation, but it is what it is...

An off-grid home-built 6 Kw 48 Volt system using commercial solar panels would cost about $24K, with about $8500 of that being 1000 aH of batteries, (although I think I may be able to shop around and do a little better with the batteries, but it is in the ballpark.) I'd probably want more aH than that for more reserve for when the sun doesn't shine, and would probably need to replace those batteries ever 5 years, but even at those rates, the system has still paid for its initial costs, plus a change of batteries in under 9.5 years, with each subsequent battery replacement paying for itself in less than 2.5 years, but lasting 5 years... ($8500 every 5 years vs. paying the utility company $3480/year until they choose to jack the rates up even more???) That's a no-brainer, but requires the starting capital to get on board, so go large, or go home...

Grid-tie would bump the costs up a little bit, not much for me, because I wouldn't even apply for the inspection until I'd already done the work, so they couldn't force me to have one of their cronies come in, and do the easy parts at extra-ordinary rates. I am sure I'd have to calm the inspector down a bit, but all of my system designs and plans so far, have been with components that all had UL listing and approval, so they can't fuss too much about it, as long as it didn't look poorly installed.

Xantrex 6048 inverter
24 SolarWorld 255 watt panels
2 Midnight Classic 150 charge controllers
1 Midnight Solar E-panel with breakers
6 Midnight Solar surge protectors
3 Midnight Solar combiner/disconnection boxes

As many batteries as I can afford thereafter in 48 volt banks...


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## Allen15 (Apr 18, 2013)

Stanb999, it seems as if you keep looking at solar PV power as if it is supposed to produce a profit for the end-user, and that one 'can get a better ROI elsewhere', but in the mean time, don't you still have utility bills?

If you will have to spend money on paying for utility bills during that same 20-30 years, what, if anything, do you have to show for that decades later? You don't suddenly become vested in the utility company, so that after 30 years, your remaining power is free for life, so either way, it kind of becomes a wash, as a sunk cost, since you will end up paying for power one way or another. You don't earn interest or gain equity on your utility payments.

The difference is that long term, if you make your own power, you have much more control over what it will cost & when it is working, vs. being at the mercy of the utility companies who really don't want us peons to ever get the idea that we could (& probably should) be doing without them...


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Allen15 said:


> Stanb999, it seems as if you keep looking at solar PV power as if it is supposed to produce a profit for the end-user, and that one 'can get a better ROI elsewhere', but in the mean time, don't you still have utility bills?
> 
> If you will have to spend money on paying for utility bills during that same 20-30 years, what, if anything, do you have to show for that decades later? You don't suddenly become vested in the utility company, so that after 30 years, your remaining power is free for life, so either way, it kind of becomes a wash, as a sunk cost, since you will end up paying for power one way or another. You don't earn interest or gain equity on your utility payments.
> 
> The difference is that long term, if you make your own power, you have much more control over what it will cost & when it is working, vs. being at the mercy of the utility companies who really don't want us peons to ever get the idea that we could (& probably should) be doing without them...



The issue is in the numbers...

If as you say your grid power is 15 cents. Solar isn't even close to break even.

With a 290 dollar bill you use +/- 2000 KWH a month. To get that from an array at the solar isolation of 4 hours a day/ you would need a 16 KW system.

2000 KWH / 30 Days = 66.666666667 per day
66.666666667 / 4 hours = 16.666666667 per hour.

If you nix the batteries in your second example. It's about 2 dollars a KW, kinda low but OK. The system would cost 32 thousand...


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

stanb999 said:


> The issue is in the numbers...


No.. The issue is the state of mind. Anything "Alternative" is always more expensive and requires more maintenance. (Yugo verses Porsche) Almost anyone can have a Yugo and drive it in the snow but if you wanna Porsche, you gotta pay the price and take care of it.. :duel:


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

12vman said:


> No.. The issue is the state of mind. Anything "Alternative" is always more expensive and requires more maintenance. (Yugo verses Porsche) Almost anyone can have a Yugo and drive it in the snow but if you wanna Porsche, you gotta pay the price and take care of it.. :duel:


I agree to a point. I just wish they would end subsidies. Then the price structure would be the same for all.


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> The issue is in the numbers...
> 
> If as you say your grid power is 15 cents. Solar isn't even close to break even.
> 
> ...



so with these numbers you are saying a 9.2 year payback, yes? less if rates go up, yes? then you are making a return after that, so after 20 years you come out pretty good? yes?


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

A few days ago, I toured a net zero home, completed in late 2011. The home is all electric, stove, dryer, HVAC, hot water, well pump, everything. He has only one utility, the electric company. 

Technology employed is PV, all LED lights, geothermal HVAC with waste heat preheating the 85 gallon super insulated hot water tank, few windows facing the south, open cell expanding foam super insulation in walls and roof, reflective roof coating. 

The owner is an engineer and retired college professor, so he is comfortable with analyzing technology and calculating rates of return. he showed me all his electric bills last year. he never had a month that he used more power than the PV generated and at the end of the year, the electric company sent him a check for ~$260. 

His internal rate of return for all this is 6+%. He showed me the numbers. He has a good retirement but not one where he can spend money frivolously. Every added cost had to have economic justification. I interviewed the builder and he said they spent a lot of time justifying each technology. 

A tax free return of more than 6%? You bet it is worth it.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

haley1 said:


> so with these numbers you are saying a 9.2 year payback, yes? less if rates go up, yes? then you are making a return after that, so after 20 years you come out pretty good? yes?



Find an install for 2 bucks a watt.  If you can do that then yes. 

Grid tie... much more cost.
Batteries ... they cost more than they give.


P.S. find 2 dollars a watt installed, I will buy it. Current installed price is north of 5.50 or 88 grand for the above system. You will get tax and other benefits... so the actual price will be just north of 60K. yep a twenty year "payback". Put 60k in a mutual fund and use the return to pay your bill. At the end of 20 years you still have your 60K and no bill for 20 years.


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

stanb999 said:


> Find an install for 2 bucks a watt.  If you can do that then yes.
> 
> Grid tie... much more cost.
> Batteries ... they cost more than they give.
> ...


Sorry but the $2 a watt was what you quoted


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

haley1 said:


> Sorry but the $2 a watt was what you quoted


No that is what the post above suggested. It was for an "off" grid with batteries. I removed them because they cost more than they give over an average lifetime,

Some quick math on batteries...
120 dollars for 100 amp hours for 5 years. Assuming they give you 20% daily. 20 amp hours @ 12 volts is 240 watts of energy available a day. It would take about 4 days for the battery to give 1 kilowatt. A kilowatt costs 15 cents in the above example. 

So 365 / 4 = 89 kilowatts a year of available power from the battery. 

89 x .15 is $13.35 dollars of power a year.

5 year average life is $66.75 of power available.
Some have claimed batteries last longer especially higher priced ones.. If it lasts 10 years it's still only $133 dollars worth of power.(these batteries cost much more.)


P.S. this didn't include the cost of the panels... Just the batteries.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

An honest discussion with someone who's mind has been made up long before any of this started is an act of futility ....

What is the term for someone who keeps dragging up negative this and negative that . . ???

So for now I raise my drink (of water) to all of us who have stepped up and gotten involved with renewable energy and the good feelings it brings . . .and independence. . . . . .To all the others I say . . . .When you get the right (open) state of mind . . the door is, and has, always been open........................


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Jim-mi said:


> An honest discussion with someone who's mind has been made up long before any of this started is an act of futility ....
> 
> What is the term for someone who keeps dragging up negative this and negative that . . ???
> 
> So for now I raise my drink (of water) to all of us who have stepped up and gotten involved with renewable energy and the good feelings it brings . . .and independence. . . . . .To all the others I say . . . .When you get the right (open) state of mind . . the door is, and has, always been open........................


I truly wanted to be proven wrong. I would love to be grid free. I hate them. (the power co.) Why. because they strung lines in the straitest possible fashion without regard for the land scape. They trashed the forests and made lanes for easy trespass. They charge huge rates with the force of the state behind them.

Alternative power just isn't affordable.


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## Allen15 (Apr 18, 2013)

One can't 'nix the batteries in a grid-tie, or one only has power during insolation = not compatible with normal life/business/etc.

If you recall, I mentioned that one must "Go large, or go home", and I was serious about that part, at least in my own example.

I am running an IT business at the same address, and have a server farm in the basement that I need to keep running 24/7/365, so yeah, my usage is probably higher than average, but the back yard is 3/4 of an acre with a gorgeous southern exposure on a slight slope to the south...

The installation isn't something I'm factoring in, because I fully intend to put the solar array on the rear roof wing of a long greenhouse running east-west (myself), so what I mount the solar array to is a sunk cost, with its own payback in the grocery bill and food security, & I don't trust another to climb on top of my greenhouse 

The 24 panels I was using for the example was a minimum size I'd consider starting at, just because it was a comfortable fit with that inverter, & going higher would require ganging inverters. It is cheaper to get started with the minimum equipment, than to be daunted by or overwhelmed by the total cost of jumping into the deep end and drowning. I expect to have mounting space for about 19 Kw of solar panels, but doing it in smaller chunks is easier to manage financially. I will not be building exactly that system, but it should easily meet the needs of many residential families, and the pricing was actually for Class A components, too, so there is more savings to be had if one is willing to work for them. If I don't count the installation and go after all of the price cuts I can find, I can make my own electricity for about 12 cents a Kw, and at least for me, I can MAKE it worth it. YMMV?

ANYTHING I can do toward that goal reduces both my electric bill, and my dependence upon a less-than-reliable utility company, and hastens my ROI.

The other issue is getting the first 6 Kw up and producing, while it won't replace my entire utility needs, will provide for some resiliency for those most critical circuits when the utility company fails to provide, and also get my neighbors used to seeing it there, so it can more quickly blend into obscurity. Thereafter, I can add to it at my leisure, without raising eyebrows.

Another possible hurdle will be if/when I choose to go over the 10 Kw mark in nameplate capacity, because if I were to also attempt to go after the "Renewable Energy Credits", I'd need to register with, and pass inspection as a Tier 2 production facility. I don't know how lucrative that market is, because the local utility company has auctions for them twice a year, and the price they pay is variable (I don't even know the range); it might not even be worth chasing those nickles, but for a system that could realistically pay for itself and at the same time provide my utility service, that worth quite a bit.

You frequently mention how putting the money into some other investment would be a better return over the same time, but during that time, how much do YOU expect you would have literally thrown away on electric bill payments to a utility? You gain no equity in your electric bill, vs. an alternative energy source where yes, you pay for it, but next month, you still have it working for you, not demanding that you feed it *again & again*...

Even starting out with 6 Kw, that means that it is 6 Kw I don't have to buy from the utility company, which is a really good start, even if it doesn't fully cover my bill 



stanb999 said:


> The issue is in the numbers...
> 
> If as you say your grid power is 15 cents. Solar isn't even close to break even.
> 
> ...


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## Allen15 (Apr 18, 2013)

The installation is free labor (me doing the installing), and I stated that up front. I've never been interested in trying to price what others would charge me to do what I can do for myself in this arena, so you may be right on that, where it just isn't cost-effective to buy solar energy (that you pay someone else to install) 

Grid-tie add-on costs are an inspection, which at 2 Kw "net metering program" level or less is free, but all components are likely to be required to be standard UL listed, etc, and at least look like it was professionally installed, over that, and up to 10 Kw, a "Tier 1" interconnect application is required at $50 non-refundable, and a more rigorous inspection is likely to accompany it. "Tier 2" (IIRC) covers up to 100 Kw, but the approval process can drag out for a year, and the application fee is $150.

All of these systems would need to have proof of automatic disconnect in the event of a grid failure in less than 2 milliseconds, but any UL listed grid-tied inverter system should handle that properly.

IFF you can't safely install this equipment yourself, you are then also at the mercy of your local electrician and/or installer, and it isn't fair to blame the cost of alternate energy on your electrician, because if you were starting from nothing, you still be paying the electrician to connect you to the grid too, right? Be honest, now...

Batteries will pay for themselves if one buys good quality ones, and maintains them.

P.S. I won't install yours for $2/watt  Your current estimation for "installed price" involves paying someone (else) to do it for you, and for 88 grand, I 'might' consider traveling to Pennsylvania and installing yours too 



stanb999 said:


> Find an install for 2 bucks a watt.  If you can do that then yes.
> 
> Grid tie... much more cost.
> Batteries ... they cost more than they give.
> ...


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## RVcook (Mar 29, 2008)

stanb999 said:


> ... Put 60k in a mutual fund and use the return to pay your bill. At the end of 20 years you still have your 60K and no bill for 20 years.


Wow...seems like I'm not alone in this thinking. I also took the time to work out the financial logistics of a similar scenario several years ago and I came to the exact same conclusion...:shocked:. 

RVcook


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

RVcook said:


> Wow...seems like I'm not alone in this thinking. I also took the time to work out the financial logistics of a similar scenario several years ago and I came to the exact same conclusion...:shocked:.
> 
> RVcook


Provided the too big to fail banks don't wreck your mutual fund with another financial debacle.

Personally I am looking at solar, but all done myself as I have the ability, for probably half the cost of buying one from a solar company and having it installed. Initially I will likely just go grid tied, and my power company will pay me for any excess, but at wholesale price.

Kinda like the geothermal heat pump I installed. For 6k I installed what would have cost me 20k to have installed.

The only thing holding me back is figuring out how much I need with the 240v geothermal AC system, and sourcing good cheap panels. I am in central Texas and plenty of sunshine is no problem here whatsoever.

For me it is more that I want to get my monthly costs down now while I have money and ability to earn it, so whatever happens later I can plan on no light bill. Basically I want to lower my monthly cash flow to live what I consider a good comfortable lifestyle for just a few hundred a month in the future regardless of inflation etc.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Txrider said:


> ... Personally I am looking at solar, but all done myself as I have the ability, for probably half the cost of buying one from a solar company and having it installed.


Around here hiring someone to install will run 3X to 4X more.





> ... Initially I will likely just go grid tied, and my power company will pay me for any excess, but at wholesale price.


Grid-tie will instantly double your expenses.





> ... I am in central Texas and plenty of sunshine is no problem here whatsoever.


There are only a few places in USA that lack sunshine.



In my region we tend to have more full sunlight in winter than we do in summer.


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## Horseyrider (Aug 8, 2010)

My goodness, there are sure a lot of replies to this thread. I have to say that we've been so fortunate with our solar that we've just signed a contract to double it. We're on the grid and intend to stay there, but our cost of power should net about zero. I like being on the grid; we have juice when we need it, in the amount we need, but we don't have to buy when we produce enough. I look at it a lot like I look at my relationship with my garden and my grocery store. I grow most of the food we eat, but some years certain crops fail or we just don't get enough yield, so I'm glad to have the grocery. But when things go right, I don't need the grocery at all. 

Right now we're producing about 65% of our energy. When this is done, we'll have a good credit and we'll cut down on the propane we use for heat, instead using some electric space heaters. 

I find it surprising that the above poster has had an experience so diametrically opposed to ours. We hired our first system done. The total cost was $40,000, which we were prepared to cover ourselves. We got $12,500 back in credits from the Feds, a rebate for $12,500 from the state, and a hefty discount from the manufacturer of the system. We paid the installer $2K for the installation, and that was a bargain. Our total cost netted out like $6K. This time should be similar, although the price of the hard goods has actually dropped, so our contract is for $36,000. We expect it to net at about $7000. For us, that's payback in single digit years.

And since I'm still grid-tied, I can run my washer, dryer, dishwasher, oven, refrigerator, freezers, and stock tank heaters all at the same time and never sweat it. From where I sit, it's a win/win.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

ET1 SS said:


> Around here hiring someone to install will run 3X to 4X more.


Probably realistically 3-4x here as well.



> Grid-tie will instantly double your expenses.


I'll be trading off charge controllers and battery costs for interconnect and anti islanding equipment cost, I don't see it costing that much more, but it could as I haven't gotten into details with my electric coop yet.



> There are only a few places in USA that lack sunshine.
> 
> 
> In my region we tend to have more full sunlight in winter than we do in summer.


True but it's higher than average here and shines all year, vs wind which I don't have enough of here to really work with.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Horseyrider said:


> I find it surprising that the above poster has had an experience so diametrically opposed to ours. We hired our first system done. The total cost was $40,000, which we were prepared to cover ourselves. We got $12,500 back in credits from the Feds, a rebate for $12,500 from the state, and a hefty discount from the manufacturer of the system. We paid the installer $2K for the installation, and that was a bargain. Our total cost netted out like $6K. This time should be similar, although the price of the hard goods has actually dropped, so our contract is for $36,000. We expect it to net at about $7000. For us, that's payback in single digit years.


If I could get a net cost like that here I would have hired it out already, all I get here is a federal tax credit of 30%. I'm using it this year for the geothermal heat pump I installed. It would have cost about 20k if I had it done, it cost 6k doing it myself minus the 30% credit it'll be a net cost of about 4200, actually a little more but that's not bad for a geothermal system.

I figure I need about a 6kw system to make more than I use, and I'm trying to get the price installed by myself under 10k, not including the federal tax credit which would bring the cost down to say 7k..


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Txrider said:


> ... True but it's higher than average here and shines all year, vs wind which I don't have enough of here to really work with.


There are published charts. Texas gets the same number of usable sunlight hours/day as anywhere else of the same Latitude.

The difference as you climb Latitude is very small.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Horseyrider said:


> My goodness, there are sure a lot of replies to this thread. I have to say that we've been so fortunate with our solar that we've just signed a contract to double it. We're on the grid and intend to stay there, but our cost of power should net about zero. I like being on the grid; we have juice when we need it, in the amount we need, but we don't have to buy when we produce enough. I look at it a lot like I look at my relationship with my garden and my grocery store. I grow most of the food we eat, but some years certain crops fail or we just don't get enough yield, so I'm glad to have the grocery. But when things go right, I don't need the grocery at all.
> 
> Right now we're producing about 65% of our energy. When this is done, we'll have a good credit and we'll cut down on the propane we use for heat, instead using some electric space heaters.
> 
> ...


Without the subsidy you could buy more than a 400 dollar monthly bill for what you spent. Hardly a deal.

Your actually fortunate in that your rather well to do in that you pay taxes in excess of 12500 dollars. That puts your income at least in the range of 80K. your income makes you in the top 10% in the country. 

Don't you find it abhorrent that the top income earners get a free gift for cheaper energy? At worst shouldn't the subsidies be even across the income classes or at best eliminated?


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## Horseyrider (Aug 8, 2010)

stanb999 said:


> Without the subsidy you could buy more than a 400 dollar monthly bill for what you spent. Hardly a deal.
> 
> Your actually fortunate in that your rather well to do in that you pay taxes in excess of 12500 dollars. That puts your income at least in the range of 80K. your income makes you in the top 10% in the country.
> 
> Don't you find it abhorrent that the top income earners get a free gift for cheaper energy? At worst shouldn't the subsidies be even across the income classes or at best eliminated?


I make no apologies for our income or the hard work in gaining a top education and paying off the debt incurred in doing so, nor for the frugality we practice so we can save and invest, so that we have choices like this one open to us. I see no free gifts here; I see the fruits of hard work and careful investment of time, money, and other resources. The subsidies are as even across income levels as what you care to invest. Invest more, you get more back. Invest little or nothing, and what you get is little or nothing. 

And that applies not only to solar power, but to brain power, earning power, learning power, and the power of compounding interest.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Horseyrider said:


> I make no apologies for our income or the hard work in gaining a top education and paying off the debt incurred in doing so, nor for the frugality we practice so we can save and invest, so that we have choices like this one open to us. I see no free gifts here; I see the fruits of hard work and careful investment of time, money, and other resources. The subsidies are as even across income levels as what you care to invest. Invest more, you get more back. Invest little or nothing, and what you get is little or nothing.
> 
> And that applies not only to solar power, but to brain power, earning power, learning power, and the power of compounding interest.


If you do well financially or not isn't the point. The point is subsidies.
The free marketer in you doesn't find the subsidies a bit socialistic? 

Gaining top education with debt funded by the tax payers? DO you work for the government as well?

I guess you wouldn't understand the free market.


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

LOL, Free market??!! Where? You think the oil industry is a function of anything even remotely resembling a free market? There isn't any alternative industry that can compete with the TRILLIONS of government tax money spent propping up the oil industry. The peasely subsidies kicked back for solar aren't even a fraction of what is spent securing and subsidizing the price of oil.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Darntootin said:


> LOL, Free market??!! Where? You think the oil industry is a function of anything even remotely resembling a free market? There isn't any alternative industry that can compete with the TRILLIONS of government tax money spent propping up the oil industry. The peasely subsidies kicked back for solar aren't even a fraction of what is spent securing and subsidizing the price of oil.


No of course oil is heavily subsidized... But the price is the same for all consumers.

With alternatives it costs less out of pocket for certain people. To match your logic. Gas in a Cadillac should cost 1/3 the price of gas put in a Ford. If you put that gas in a BMW you would pay 25% more than the Ford. If you put it into a Hyundai you would pay nearly double the cost of fueling the Ford. So that more dollars could be spent on american cars.

That is about the state of things with the tariffs and "FSA" for the eco-plebes.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

stanb999 said:


> Your actually fortunate in that your rather well to do in that you pay taxes in excess of 12500 dollars. That puts your income at least in the range of 80K. your income makes you in the top 10% in the country.
> 
> Don't you find it abhorrent that the top income earners get a free gift for cheaper energy? At worst shouldn't the subsidies be even across the income classes or at best eliminated?


From my understanding the federal tax credit can be split up into 3 years if you don't owe enough taxes to take the whole credit in one year.

As for abhorrent, we're talking whether the cost of solar is worth it, not the cost of government. All you need to make the subsidies even is to make the tax credits refundable.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

ET1 SS said:


> There are published charts. Texas gets the same number of usable sunlight hours/day as anywhere else of the same Latitude.
> 
> The difference as you climb Latitude is very small.


Sure if all things are equal, but practically speaking a spot like say Western Arizona is going to get about a full kilowatt per sq meter per day if not 2kv more direct surface radiation than say Dallas Texas at about the same attitude, and Dallas is going to get close to a kilowatt per square meter more than somewhere like say Georgia at about the same latitude simply due to differences in average cloud cover.

If I am putting up 50 square meters of panels, that's a 50kv/m2/day difference potential minimum and could be 100kv difference between Texas around Dallas and say western Arizona.

http://www.chavescounty.net/uploads/documents/1264008479Solar Radiation.jpg


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

stanb999 said:


> No of course oil is heavily subsidized... But the price is the same for all consumers.
> 
> With alternatives it costs less out of pocket for certain people. To match your logic. Gas in a Cadillac should cost 1/3 the price of gas put in a Ford. If you put that gas in a BMW you would pay 25% more than the Ford. If you put it into a Hyundai you would pay nearly double the cost of fueling the Ford. So that more dollars could be spent on american cars.
> 
> That is about the state of things with the tariffs and "FSA" for the eco-plebes.


I think his logic isn't that it "should" be that way, more likely his logic is just like mine, It is that way and there's no reason for me not to take advantage of it. 

I pulled a low 6 figure income for a long time, and as a lifeong bachelor I have been bent over and aresraped on taxes for it. I paid out to subsidize married folks filing joint, I paid out to subsidize everyone's kids through their dependent deductions, etc. etc. and the little credit I get back for a solar install or my geothermal is a pimple on the grits of just one years tax bill, I couldn't care less about the morality of it, if I can get a smidge back I'll grab it.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Txrider said:


> From my understanding the federal tax credit can be split up into 3 years if you don't owe enough taxes to take the whole credit in one year.
> 
> As for abhorrent, we're talking whether the cost of solar is worth it, not the cost of government. All you need to make the subsidies even is to make the tax credits refundable.


Without the credits in today's market Solar isn't close to worth it.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Solar shouldn't be viewed so narrowly. It makes perfect sense for the individual and society in some cases. Without subsidies.

One mile of underground powerline extension to our rural house would have cost $63,000. In 2003. That's one mile of 3" plastic conduit, big honkin copper wire and several transformers. Plus the labor, fuel/polution to make, transport and install it. 

The solar panels, controllers, inverters, mounts etc for our, unsubsidized, system cost around $12,000 and I hauled it home in two pickup loads. It powers our 3,500 sf home quite nicely.

Which version is less impact and cheaper?


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## Plantman (Nov 17, 2012)

Last year we put in a solar system designed to generate 2/3 of what we normally use. Then we started being more conservative with the power we used, turning off extra lights, etc. The total system cost $28 thousand and we got a tax credit of almost $9,000. We were also allowed to depreciate the remaining amount as a deduction which saved us $14,000 on our income tax. On top of that, we sell our excess electricity back to the grid. Our electric bills are very low, some months they wind up owing us money. Our summer bills used to be $500 plus, this year they have averaged $125. Besides saving us money we are making money on this system. Best investments we have for the year. 
We also have the added security during power outages. Wish I had done this years ago.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

Most grid-tied systems don't supply power to the home if the mains are down. Most don't have batteries for that matter. Be sure to install the right parts if you want power when everyone else is out.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

. . . . . $500 a month electric bills . . . Wow


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Gray Wolf said:


> Most grid-tied systems don't supply power to the home if the mains are down. Most don't have batteries for that matter. Be sure to install the right parts if you want power when everyone else is out.


Yup the system I want to start with will not supply power when the grid goes down, at least not at first. A charge controller and battery system may be added later for that. I'm aiming for low/no light bills first, off grid or grid backup is a secondary thing for me. 

Like I said I just want to cut my monthly cash flow as deep as I can, so I can live decently on much less income in the future.


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## Horseyrider (Aug 8, 2010)

Gray Wolf is correct, and it makes sense. In the event of a power failure, the power company will have their workers servicing the lines. They need to know that electricity isn't coming back at them from our system, and that they are safe. I'm perfectly okay with that, and have a nice generator backup system to protect us in that event. After a big storm we used it just a few weeks ago, and ran our two freezers, refrigerator, well, etc with no trouble. In the winter it'll also take are of the furnace and a stock tank heater. 

We rarely have power failures, so for us it's a good choice.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

Freedom , Living ff the grid gives us freedom. Whats it worth? Priceless.
Gray wolf explains it clearly.
We also put our system in for what it would have cost to have access to the grid and a monthly bill.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Gray Wolf said:


> Solar shouldn't be viewed so narrowly. It makes perfect sense for the individual and society in some cases. Without subsidies.
> 
> One mile of underground powerline extension to our rural house would have cost $63,000. In 2003. That's one mile of 3" plastic conduit, big honkin copper wire and several transformers. Plus the labor, fuel/polution to make, transport and install it.
> 
> ...


To get the same power from the grid wouldn't have cost nearly 63,000. What you have is a 20 amp breaker one mile from a pole. That would cost just a few a thousand dollars. The grid power cost would be tiny for this supplied power.

If you built a solar system that supplied 30-40 KW a day(about 1000KW a month) with a start-up in the range of 20000 watts. Then your numbers would be meaningful.

Your not comparing the same things.

You would get great gas mileage in one of these. It even has room for a passenger!










Imagine the freedom you would enjoy not having a car payment! Alaska


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

The line extension cost was $63,000 years ago. More now of course. That was just to get power to the house, not to pay for any power at all.

Off-grid homes, and conserving people, don't use anywhere near 30-40,000 watts a day.

It makes perfect sense to be off-grid in many cases. If you are on the grid now and have a consuming lifestyle (30,000 - 40,000 KW a day) that you don't want to change, it isn't worth considering. You will never live long enough to see a payback.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

stanb999 said:


> If you built a solar system that supplied 30-40 KW a day(about 1000KW a month) with a start-up in the range of 20000 watts.



My system is 11kw ( 11,000watts ) and does about 1000kw/hrs/month on average.


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

I have lived long term with city utilities, no power/water/gas, and with self made power/ water and propane. All three ways have their pros and cons. Living without what we think of as utilities is not all bad for sure...it certainly is quiet! I think for my last and hopefully soon next place I would like to have gray water, very small solar, lpg frige and stove and outhouse type toilet. I really miss the quiet and think I could meet my requirements for under ten grand. I would have to break that down into number of years worth of current utility bills- looks like about 30 years worth!


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## Horseyrider (Aug 8, 2010)

TnAndy said:


> My system is 11kw ( 11,000watts ) and does about 1000kw/hrs/month on average.


DH says that's what we will have when we are done. I'm so pleased to hear that about yours, as I've long admired yours and will be stoked to have something similar.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

TnAndy said:


> My system is 11kw ( 11,000watts ) and does about 1000kw/hrs/month on average.



The link on the other page shows exactly half that for the last month. :hrm: 

It produces 100 dollars a month of power. Did it cost less than 36,000 total? (based on 30 years with no repairs)

I also bet you don't have batteries and inverters that gives 100 amp, 220V.. Or using about half the potential of a modern house electrical system. Forget the fact that most houses have 2 200amp panels if the house has electric heat or heavy cooling needs. That would be off the charts for cost.

P.S.
FYI batteries never pay for themselves with power returned, at least not at today's cost.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Gray Wolf said:


> The line extension cost was $63,000 years ago. More now of course. That was just to get power to the house, not to pay for any power at all.
> 
> Off-grid homes, and conserving people, don't use anywhere near 30-40,000 watts a day.
> 
> It makes perfect sense to be off-grid in many cases. If you are on the grid now and have a consuming lifestyle (30,000 - 40,000 KW a day) that you don't want to change, it isn't worth considering. You will never live long enough to see a payback.


30-40 kW a day isn't being a heavy user at all. A bill for 1000kw a month in most of the country is just north of 100 bucks. If anything most people have bills that are much higher. You make is seem like running a tv, a water heater, fridge and an air conditioner once in a while is over the top in usage. 


Stating that you use so little just reinforces the fact that the system provides you with little usable power. If a grid tied person was to limit themselves to your electric usage their bill wouldn't likely be more than just a few dollars. They wouldn't have the batteries. They wouldn't have the fuel bill.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

stanb999 said:


> If a grid tied person was to limit themselves to your electric usage their bill wouldn't likely be more than just a few dollars. They wouldn't have the batteries. They wouldn't have the fuel bill.


We don't talk about grid tie systems around here a lot, but that's where you find maximum economy. I think people shy away from grid tie because it doesn't offer security during power outages and it's a lot less romantic than a stand alone battery system. But when you are asking whether a solar PV system is worth installing, you can't really ignore the economy of grid tie.

First, you don't need batteries. That saves the power loss of storing and recovering power from batteries, which is significant. Instead, a grid tie system uses the grid itself as a battery. Excess power turns the meter backwards, so power consumed at night can be free. The cost of buying and replacing batteries is also saved, so system installation cost is significantly less.

I'm seeing solar panels approaching 60 cents per watt now. Solar panels and grid tie inverters are not that expensive. If you can install it yourself I think a grid tie system will more than pay for itself, and even have a relatively short return on investment payback period.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Nevada said:


> We don't talk about grid tie systems around here a lot, but that's where you find maximum economy. I think people shy away from grid tie because it doesn't offer security during power outages and it's a lot less romantic than a stand alone battery system. But when you are asking whether a solar PV system is worth installing, you can't really ignore the economy of grid tie.
> 
> First, you don't need batteries. That saves the power loss of storing and recovering power from batteries, which is significant. Instead, a grid tie system uses the grid itself as a battery. Excess power turns the meter backwards, so power consumed at night can be free. The cost of buying and replacing batteries is also saved, so system installation cost is significantly less.
> 
> I'm seeing solar panels approaching 60 cents per watt now. Solar panels and grid tie inverters are not that expensive. If you can install it yourself I think a grid tie system will more than pay for itself, and even have a relatively short return on investment payback period.


Send me the address/link where I can by 100 watt panels for 60 bucks... I'll take 2 now! 

I don't want a pallet or truck load. And shipping shouldn't more than double the cost. So yeah, I'll pay 240 bucks.... Now.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

stanb999 said:


> Send me the address/link where I can by 100 watt panels for 60 bucks... I'll take 2 now!
> 
> I don't want a pallet or truck load. And shipping shouldn't more than double the cost. So yeah, I'll pay 240 bucks.... Now.


Here's a quantity of five 120 watt panels for $360, plus freight.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6KW-600-wat...011?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f2754f9ab

Here is a larger quantity from MX Solar for 75 cents.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-235w-mx-s...164?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f275c0adc

68 cents.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-A-grade-s...854?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f2766006e

A pallet load for 63 cents.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/20-280-w-so...812?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cd3c70ee4


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Here's a quantity of five 120 watt panels for $360, plus freight.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6KW-600-wat...011?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f2754f9ab
> 
> ...


These average a bit more than what was discussed... 2 100 watt panels for 240.... You can get a single panel... Not two.

Is the warranty available from these sellers of seconds and closeouts?

P.S.
If you want warranted panels from reputable companies you will pay north of 1.25 in bulk, and 2.50 a watt for one. With shipping easily doubling the cost. Nonsense ebay links from swap meet re-sellers isn't the same.

Now here is a good deal!

http://www.amazon.com/Grape-Solar-G...=UTF8&qid=1374612048&sr=1-4&keywords=100+watt


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

stanb999 said:


> These average a bit more than what was discussed... 2 100 watt panels for 240.... You can get a single panel... Not two.
> 
> Is the warranty available from these sellers of seconds and closeouts?


All I know is what's in the auctions. I'm not the one selling them. If you don't like it then don't buy it. I said you can get panels for near 60 cents per watt, and that's where to get them from.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Nevada said:


> All I know is what's in the auctions. I'm not the one selling them. If you don't like it then don't buy it. I said you can get panels for near 60 cents per watt, and that's where to get them from.


So you put up prices that have no bearing on the discussion. They are seconds that don't have warranty That's why they are cheap. That's also why you shouldn't attach them to your house unless you have lots of money and time.


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## Gray Wolf (Jan 25, 2013)

What they cost on your doorstep is the actual cost. Quoted fee on super cheap panels is usually for a full pallet load in their warehouse, somewhere.

Check on crating charge for less than a pallet. It can add up.

I'll sell panels on ebay for 43.7 cents a watt if you like but watch out for my shipping charge!

Probably even cheaper if you don't mind paying shipping from China. By the way, most all panels I've seen had the crystals grown in one country and the panels assembled in another. Is there actually a 100% "made in USA" panel?


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

stanb999 said:


> The link on the other page shows exactly half that for the last month. :hrm:


That is because I only have 20 panels ( 5kw ) of the 11kw (50 panels) total on Enphase inverters that report on that site. The rest of the system is battery based using Outback equipment. I have bought a meter from Enphase that will tie in the other 6kw and report the total on the linked site, but I just don't have it installed yet.




stanb999 said:


> It produces 100 dollars a month of power. Did it cost less than 36,000 total? (based on 30 years with no repairs)


I've got about 30k in the whole shebang. Take out the 30% federal, and $1,000 local credits, plus a 10 year program where the local utility buys all my power production for 12 cents over retail ( retail being about 9 cents ), and it works out to a decent deal.




stanb999 said:


> I also bet you don't have batteries and inverters that gives 100 amp, 220V.. Or using about half the potential of a modern house electrical system. Forget the fact that most houses have 2 200amp panels if the house has electric heat or heavy cooling needs. That would be off the charts for cost.
> 
> P.S.
> FYI batteries never pay for themselves with power returned, at least not at today's cost.


My twin Outback inverters produce 5kw @240v IF we go off grid (as in a power outage)(the Enphase portion of my system drops out in a grid down situation.....the Outback portion moves into off grid mode ).....if we stay on grid, we produce more power than we use. 11kw @240v =45amps

"Most" houses certainly do not have 2-200amp panels....new McMansions may, but certainly not the average house. The average home in the US uses around 900kw/hrs/month ( Dept of Energy....look it up)

For the record, we heat with wood ( and have done so since 1975 ), with propane backup, and a couple of recently installed Mitsubishi "mini" split heat pumps......rarely ever use them for heat, mainly for some AC in the dog days of summer.......and they are high SEER units.....the one I just put in the bedroom, 12,000BTU, is a 23 SEER. I can actually run it cheaper than the whole house fan.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Meter reader was just here. We produced 1146kw/hrs for the reading month ( June 26 to July 26 ) and consumed 966kw/hrs. After paying right at 100 bucks for the 966 ( 9 cents/hr + 12.50 meter fee ), and getting a credit of $240 for the production ( 21 cents x 1146 ), our net credit is 140 bucks for the month. 

They add that to the running credit we already have, and cut us a check at the end of the year for whole year. I figure it will be around 800-900 bucks, as we just added that last 2500w array about a month or so back. NEXT year, I don't plan to make any changes, and anticipate around 1400 or so back.....in addition to no power bill.


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