# Possible Dog Attack!!!



## MBeckett (Aug 8, 2011)

First off we are very new at raising sheep, we have 3 ewes and 1 ram, we also have a Great Pyrenese dog in with them as well. Today my went out to feed the sheep and noticed that one of them had wet slobbers on there neck but as mating season is here she thought that it was probably the ram having mated with her and slobbered on her neck. So when I got home my wife told me about this and so I went out to do chores and noticed that the two smallest sheep had bite/puncture wounds on there necks and were all slobbery. So immediately I took the dog out of the pen and put her with the other dogs we have we treated the wounds with peroxide and put some anti-bacterial cream on them. One also has a bite on there leg as well. I guess basically before we fully blame dog and find her a new home, I want to ask everyone Could the Ram have done this during maiting or is it the Dog who did this. We have never had any problems with the dog other than if the sheep would get in to her food but even then she would just grawl and chase them for about 3 or 4 feet. Your opinions and experiences with breeding are welcomed. Thank you all in advance!!


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## J.T.M. (Mar 2, 2008)

My vote is for the dog....... boars slobber not rams ,and neither leave puncture wounds.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I took the dog out of the pen and put her with the *other dogs *


Your dog could have done it, or it could have been a stray since you've taught your LGD that *other dogs *are OK

It wasn't done by the Ram


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## LibertyWool (Oct 23, 2008)

Yea, this could not be your ram, sheep only have lower teeth in the front and no canine teeth (sorry for the pun). So they have nothing to puncture with.


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

how old is your pyr and how long has he been with the sheep?


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## wendle (Feb 22, 2006)

How old is your Lgd and how long on the Job? It's possible you had a coyote attack that the Lgd intercepted. I've had a few hits like that some years ago. The coyotes are alwas onthe hunt looking for opportunity. Sure it's possible the Lgd did it watch him just in case. A Lgd can tell the difference between your dogs and something attacking his flock.


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## Shoupie (Mar 21, 2009)

Is your LGD's food secure? Is he getting enough to eat? He could be getting after them for going after his food.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I've copied this thread from the sheep forum here on HT too. So it can get a wider range of replies. You will have to check there for them as new replies do not automatically go to both threads. I'll post the link.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Link to the Sheep forum thread
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=415160


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

1. As stated above always first check: DOES YOUR DOG HAVE FOOD, enough food, and is he content? Fresh water? Shade in the heat? Some place to get out of wind, cold?

2. Observe....on a day off you or someone needs to do a sentry post and watch what is going on in that pen/field/pasture before you blame your Pyr, it could have been a stray, if your Pyr has been allowed to think other dogs are okay, he may be allowing a dog in to play, maim or hassel the sheep. 

....which is why I marvel at how some people can keep 'pet' dogs along with LGD's. It seems to me it would be so confusing for the LGD. Here at my place, it's LGD or nothing, any dog other than LGD comes along, they are toast. My neighbor with goats, shares back fence line...my dogs all know her Pyr LGD and lick and greet through fence. However their husky dog pet, receives a full out fence attack. LGD's KNOW the difference between 'one of them' and a non-guarding breed. It may sound far fetched but they do. I sure hope it is not your Pyr.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

Sure sounds like a young/puppy lgd behavior.

Is this dog a puppy? Most LGD's aren't considered mature until after 2 years, some not until 3.

Please verify the age of the dog, and NO, the ram did not do this.

HF


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

I would also assume your dog is young and trying to play. They are big dogs, and play rough. They don't hurt their flock on purpose though, but they can actually kill them while trying to play with them. They are just huge rough and tumble dogs.


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## MBeckett (Aug 8, 2011)

Our great pyr is about 9mo old, we have only had her for about 3 weeks and we gradually introduced her over the course of a week. She has been in with the sheep ever since and everything was fine until the other nite when we went out and the sheep had been attacked. I have watched her run and play with the sheep on several occasions. She was raised around sheep and goats until she was 3 or 4 months old and then the previous owners had her as a house dog until we got her. We hate to get rid of her but do you think this sort of behavior will continue?


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Your dog could have done it, or it could have been a stray since you've taught your LGD that *other dogs *are OK
> 
> It wasn't done by the Ram


I have *Other Dogs*, why is teaching them that they are as much a part of the pack as everything else cause a problem? 

Mine better the heck not attack my house dogs. Now I have had puppies show too much interest in chickens and my boys squish them down, show them teeth and teach them that it is not ok to sniff, chase or look cross eyed at them. 
Now if a stray dog shows up, which has happened they chase it off. They know the difference. 

Is your girl spayed? 
Is she eating in the sheep pen? I feed mine away from the goats and in the early evening when the chickens have gone to bed. They would get into the boys food and they would sometimes let them eat it and sometimes chase them off. 

She is still young but needs to learn not to chase them. Does she have toys to keep her occupied? 
Three weeks and her young age, she needs more training. Since she has not really harmed them, I would start by not feeding her near them and correcting her everytime her even starts to chase them. 

If you have a fence area outside of the sheep pen, then let her patrol that a night and not be in there with them for right now, but she will still be able to keep predators away from their pen. In the daytime put her in the pen and correct any behaviors.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I have Other Dogs, why is teaching them that they are as much a part of the pack as everything else cause a problem?


Letting them play with *your* dogs teaches them that it's OK to PLAY with "other dogs."

LGD's shouldn't be "part of the pack"
They are supposed to be part of the *herd* to which they have bonded


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

MBeckett said:


> Our great pyr is about 9mo old, we have only had her for about 3 weeks and we gradually introduced her over the course of a week.



Therein lies your problem.

Your dog is a puppy, and puppies will play.

Sometimes, your herd queen & a daughter or two, or perhaps the bucks can correct this if put together with NO young kids or yearlings. They need to be aggressive towards her, meaning 4 years or older, dominant/strong personalities. If they are not aggressive enough, and she gets away with it, then she is only being encouraged to continue.

One of my retained pups had the unfortunate experience of being a teenager just after kidding time. I watched her get pummeled by my older does anytime she even looked at those kids, then of course momma, daddy, and auntie lgd's added their wisdom. Poor dog ended up a perfect guardian. I don't recommend you putting your dog with young kids, it worked for me because I had the right mix of "teachers".

You must stop this behavior ASAP. Tie her in the pen, Segregate her & only let her out under supervision, use a shock collar on her, hobble her, whatever works so she does NOT get away with this anymore.

Alpha roll her (if you can get to her) when she starts to nip/chase/looked crosseyed. Since she is 3 weeks new to you, you should be leash training her, perimeter training her, and making her understand YOU are in charge, and she WILL do your bidding by protecting these animals. 

go to www.lgd.org , there is a world of help articles to help you understand where your pup is at, and how to correct it. You can ask here also, but it helps when you get a really good handle on how these dogs work, and why.


HF


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

MBeckett said:


> We hate to get rid of her but do you think this sort of behavior will continue?


She will eventually outgrow it, but it takes a long time. They are HUGE puppies who play rough. It's not really an attack, but she is trying to play with them.


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## Malamute (Sep 15, 2011)

Sounds like some good information already.

Are you sure it was your dog that did it? Did you by chance measure the tooth marks and measure your dogs teeth? Just wanting to bring up that it may have been another dog, and would be sad for your's to get blamed for it. Being young, she may have not paid enough attention if another dog came around.


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## akane (Jul 19, 2011)

> which is why I marvel at how some people can keep 'pet' dogs along with LGD's. It seems to me it would be so confusing for the LGD.


We never had a problem. Dogs are more than smart enough to learn that these dogs are ok and those dogs are not. It was never an issue. If stray dogs came on the property they would be harassed or at least followed and watched closely until they left and attacked if they threatened anything. Yet the neighbor could come over with their dog so long as we were there to give permission. The same is true of wild animals and other pets. If I say that cat belongs in the barn then that cat is left alone but if I point out a feral causing problems I don't even have to say anything except "hey, look" *point at cat* and the cat will be gone. Possibly dead. I generally tried not to watch those moments. Even rabbits and prey animals they could be taught to chase wild ones and then mother pets in the stable or house. I think it's doing your dogs a disservice to think they are too stupid to realize the difference. The only dogs we ever had issues with were not raised to know the difference and had to be taught their entire puppy hood over again. That was a failing of the humans not the dogs.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Letting them play with *your* dogs teaches them that it's OK to PLAY with "other dogs."
> 
> LGD's shouldn't be "part of the pack"
> They are supposed to be part of the *herd* to which they have bonded


Where did I say they play with each other?? My house dogs are not suppose to not be allowed outside or in the field because I have LGD? 
My LGD are not ill trained or stupid, they know the difference between what is mine and what is not-- this includes my cats and my chickens. 

They even know that the neighbor's dogs who they hear bark daily and see often are not allowed here. When his idiot dogs break out my one LGD stands between those dogs and the goats. He does not move or chase them. The younger one is the one who goes after them and chases them away. 

People come here to buy goats, chickens or whatever and they bring dogs without permission and my LGD do not tolerate it ever. 

You raise yours the way you want to and I raise mine they way I want to. My way also allows me to avoid any vet bills from fighting amongst my own dogs, I can take them all out on a perimeter run and I like it this way. 

Dogs do not run my life, I tell them what to do and they do it. They are all MY dogs and know who is in charge and it is not them.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Where did I say they play with each other??


Where did I say you said it?

You asked me a question about what I said, and I gave you an answer.

It had nothing at all to do with "you".

It was about the OP taking HER dog and "putting it WITH the* other dogs*"



> You raise yours the way you want to and I raise mine they way I want to. My way also allows me to avoid any vet bills from fighting amongst my own dogs, I can *take them all out on a perimeter run *and I like it this way.



So you DO allow them to interact outside the pasture.

How is that different than "letting them play" together?

(My way doesn't cause any Vet bills either)

LOL


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## BarbadosSheep (Jun 27, 2011)

Dogs can interact with other family dogs without playing. My pit bull and her two best friends (who happen to be chihuahuas) interact all the time; they live together in the same house. But they never play because they are too small to play with her and she knows it. My 2 anatolians need to be allowed to interact with my other dogs so they don't kill them if they ever venture into the pasture. But I won't let them play with the pit bull (she plays too rough) or the chihuahuas (they are too small). The Anatolians DO play with each other though and there is no way to avoid that. Puppies play. Just have to supervise them until they are old enough to know that playing with the livestock is not permitted.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

akane said:


> I think it's doing your dogs a disservice to think they are too stupid to realize the difference. The only dogs we ever had issues with were not raised to know the difference and had to be taught their entire puppy hood over again. That was a failing of the humans not the dogs.


I think I made it very clear in my post that my (extremely intelligent!) dogs easily recognize another LGD and accept it and it's the non-LGD's they have issues with.

Also I think there is no pat answer for all this that covers everyone. We all have different requirements and set ups. Perhaps here on my set up, things are more 'black and white' there are no, or extremely few 'gray' areas. Someone/something is either accepted and is 'okay' to be in here, or it's dead meat. The neighbor's huge husky, who charges the fence line when he's let out in the AM, strongly resembles a wolf. I like the fact that my dogs don't like him. :gaptooth: There is no need for any retraining or failure on my part because my dogs are doing precisely what they should be doing which is also why I have zip predation loss. :grin:

I acknowledge how some people can co-mingle pets and LGD's I have just never done it, everything here works, and I have no need for 'pets' on my place. 

_LGD's shouldn't be "part of the pack"
They are supposed to be part of the herd to which they have bonded_

I agree Bearfoot only edit I would make for my own situation is that my pack is part of my herd because I run a pack of LGD's. But I do agree....that allowing LGD's to co-mingle with pet dogs and play and what-ever on a regular basis, I don't know if I'd allow young pups to do that alot (frankly if I had pet dogs my LGD pups would never interact with them at impressionable stages) simply because they might bond too much with the pet dogs instead of as you say, the livestock or the working LGD pack. I let my pups bond to the stock AND the pack because the pack is already ahead of them, and bonded to the stock, and show pups the way. OK is this getting convoluted or what...grin....:rock:


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Do you think that having more than one LGD is better because that way they have another rough and tumble dog to play with? We have always had multiples which I like better. I can't imagine how hard it would be to have only one who had nobody to play with? Does having multiples help prevent this problem of them trying to play with stock?

I know, you also have to watch about not letting them learn to play with people. I know my oldest son comes over, and I almost always have to get after him for trying to play with the big dogs. He's over 30, and should know better, but....... I guess kids are always kids. I still have to be the mean Mom who tells him to leave them alone. They just cannot ever learn to play rough with people because of their size.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

-------------nvm I am not going to argue with him-------------


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Do you think that having more than one LGD is better


I like working them in pairs



> They just cannot ever learn to play rough with people because of their size


They shouldn't be playing with people at all.

They should be handled enough to be controlable, but there shouldn't be multiple people going in to "play" with them, and it's best not to let the dogs out to roam and play IF you really want them to do the job they were bred to do.

You either want a Livestock Guardian, or you want a "pet", but you shouldn't be trying to make one dog do both


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I let my pups bond to the stock AND the pack because the pack is already ahead of them, and bonded to the stock, and show pups the way. *OK is this getting convoluted or what...grin*


LOL

It makes perfect sense to me.

*LGD's* bonding together, WITH a flock, in a* contained *situation is far different than bonding with *other* dogs OUTSIDE the flock and pastures, because if they bond too much with the DOG PACK rather than their "FLOCK PACK", when the strays come around, they may revert to pure *dog/prey *behavior


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## Fowler (Jul 8, 2008)

My LGD's know, sniff and smelled my 114 lb lab house dog, they also know of my cats.
However, I will not allow then to run, play, chase or be around my house dog for more then a couple of minutes. And never, ever. ever, will I allow my lab into the paddock with my sheep or LGD's. He sees them through the fence only. When I let everyong out into the yard my lab has to stay confined into the house. When my lab has to use the bathroom when my LGD's are in the yard, my lab goes out to do his business, the LGD's sniff at him, and my lab comes right back in.
I do not want my LGD's to learn any bad habits from my house dogs period.
They basically know not to kill him, that he is family. And that's all they need to know.
When my lab goes outside at night and gets too close to their paddock my LGD's will lay into him and not stop till he leaves. Which is how I want it. My lab has no business being over there.


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