# Totally Confused - New Construction



## bigbob7777 (Nov 24, 2012)

Hi to everyone. My first post here - been lurking for a while. 

I am planning a 30 x 40 workshop-barn-hobby room building. About 8 rooms total. I'm looking into the foundation. I can't afford a slab. So, I will have a wood floor. I live in the county, on 2 1/2 acres; so codes are a bit lax.

What I'm thinking is a modified pier-beam (if that terminology is correct). I looked into a pole barn, but I don't think it's the best option. It's just myself with no heavy equipment. 

So, how does this sound: Sink footers 12" thick into the ground 3-4' deep (soil is kind of sandy and there is a creek 50' away. So the water table is high. Sink 6x6's into the ground and extend them approx 2' above grade. Then, rest a sil plate and 2x12's (2 of them) on top of the 6's. 10' between piers. Also, anchor the 2x12's to the 6's. 

Then, build stick type construction on top of the 2x12's because I will have windows and interior partitions. I've considered using concrete piers in sonotubes in lieu of 6x6's. If I use the tubes, what's the best way to anchor the 2x12's to the piers? How does this sound? Ideas? bob


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## barn-apart (Feb 10, 2005)

I put a single anchor bolt in the top if the sonotube, after curing weld a steel plate to the anchor bolt through a hole in the plate, then weld L brackets to the plate in line with the layout for the 2x12 and ( lag or bolt) them to the L brackets. 
This method allows more accurate alignment of the metal fasteners and passes code. 
Good luck.


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## bigbob7777 (Nov 24, 2012)

I don't know how to weld. But thanks.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

You can put the anchor bolt into the sonotube. Check Home Depot. There is a plate that bolts to the anchor and another bolt thru the plate connects to the framing member. The plate swivels to allow you to align as needed. No welding required. 

There is a similar product to use between the sonotube pier and the post for putting up decks. It separates the wood from the concrete to lengthen the life of the post. You might want to see if that meets your need.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

You might want to price wood versus a slab. I always found slab construction cheaper back my construction days, assuming you have to buy the wood ( versus cutting it off your own place )


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## bigbob7777 (Nov 24, 2012)

I believe concrete is about $6 a SF. That would work out to around $7200 (1200sf x $6). No way joists would cost that much. And, would still need a pier around the perimeter. 

PLease keep the ideas coming. Quick question: What's the best way to join a corner where the 2 x 12's from each side would meet? I can get a bracket for the piers on each side. But, the corners would have 2 sets of 2 x 12's meeting. Ideas?


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Concrete here is $110/yd3. Assuming you pour a 4" thick slab with an turn down of 12" wide x 8" thick, you'd need about 12 cu.yds. $1500 tax and all. ($1.25 sqft )

You'd most likely need a couple loads of gravel under it.......$800 for about 30-35 tons.
( 67 cents/sqft )

Labor to spread/form: $500 ( 42 cents/sqft )

Pour/finish labor ( here ) 75 cents/sqft.

$3.09 sqft.

$3800


Wood:

Double band around the outside ( 280lin/ft ) of 2x12 at $1.40/linft: $392
Center girder, double 2x12 ( 80' )............................................ : $112
Joists 24"oc 42-16' 2x12 (672')............................................ : $941
Joists 16"oc 62 (992').............................................: $1389
Subfloor 3/4 plywood 38 sheets @ $24/ea.................................. : $912

Nails, brackets, etc.................................................................... : $75

8" ( plenty thick enough ) x 12" 12" footers x 15 footers ( 5 down each outside, 
then 5 down the center ) 10cuft.....about 20-80lb bags Sackrete @$5/ea : $100

8' -- 6x6x8' (cut in half for piers) $15 ea........................................... : $140

$2700 to 3150 ( depending on joist spacing )

And nothing insulating the under side and the wind blowing under it.....and the critters that will LOVE ya for building them a home ( :happy2: )....... and didn't include tax delivery on materials..........and you have 12 more inches to side......

So, yeah, you might save 700 to 1000 bucks doing the labor yourself...or maybe not......


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

But to answer your question on the corners, what I would do is make a shoulder on the 6x6 pier post, cutting away 3" in each direction at the corner, leaving a 2 1/2" section, 11 1/4" high ( height, or slightly less, of a finished 2x12 ) sticking up. Then set your 2x12s on the 3" shoulder, nailing into the 2 1/2 remainder of the 6x6 post, lapping the joints of the 2x12s over each other, as shown in my crude sketch below.










I would ALSO cut a should cut 3" deep into the post piers between the corners so the 2x12s sit ON something rather than simply nailed TO the post ( much stronger ).


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## bigbob7777 (Nov 24, 2012)

Man, you guys/gals are gr8 (and totally FAST!!). thanks. If I placed the piers 10' apart, what size band lumber would you suggest? I was thinking (2) 2 x 12's. But, is that over kill? Would a 6 x 6 or (2) 2 x 8's work just as well? Also, is sinking 6 x 6's directly into the cement still an acceptable practice (versus concrete pier with (2) 2 x 12's on top)?


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

No, on 10' post spacing, I'd probably go 2x12.....and I'd probably beef it up with a hunk of 3/4" x 11 1/4" plywood between the 2x12s honestly.....lot of bearing weight on those outside walls. 

You could reduce it....say to 6' OC, with 2x8s but your problem is still the span of the center......15'......that's 2x10 (16" oc.....and that's pushing it ) or 2x12. By the way, I'd probably go to 32' wide on the building since you're paying for a 16' joist ( x2 ) anyway.

Something else to consider are "I" joists instead of solid lumber. Reduce your post spacing to 8', use a triple 2x8, then set the I joist on top the triple beam. ( your 30' wall you could stay on 10' I'd think, assuming your 40' wall is the roof bearing wall )


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## bigbob7777 (Nov 24, 2012)

You Said "Something else to consider are "I" joists instead of solid lumber. Reduce your post spacing to 8', use a triple 2x8, then set the I joist on top the triple beam. ( your 30' wall you could stay on 10' I'd think, assuming your 40' wall is the roof bearing wall )"

Would an I Beam and (3) 2x8's be less expensive than 2 x 12 solids?


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

call your local lumber yard and find out. Price I joists over solid and see, but yeah, most likely.

On the 30 ends, you could do a single 2x8, again, assuming your 40' side bears the roof weight. ( I'm guessing at your plan ).

How do you plan to run your joists to your outside band NOW ? 

Sitting on top the band, or butted to it......and if butted, HOW to plan to secure them ? Metal joist hanger on each ? or ledger strip or what ? I joist *on top* a beam spanning ( you do still need the middle girder beam ) the whole 30' is a lot faster.


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## woodsy (Oct 13, 2008)

Did a 30'x20' floating slab about 6 years ago. Total cost with earthwork ,remove top soil add a foot or two of gravel and pack w/roller, total cost about $2500. 
Did my own form work, add wire mesh , poured and finished it with power trowel,
none of this concrete work is very difficult. PT plates bolt to the slab, too easy.
And what a solid floor !
Hired a hand for a morning to help w/concrete pour. $50.00


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## MushCreek (Jan 7, 2008)

There are other factors besides cost. Do you have termites in your area? High humidity leading to rot? What do you plan to do in this building? If you want to bring a truck or tractor inside to work on it, a wood floor isn't going to cut it unless it is massively built ($$$). I poured a 6" slab in my barn because plan to set up an automotive lift, which requires a minimum 5" slab. I also plan to have a lathe (2500 lbs) and a milling machine (3500 lbs). Not to mention the welder, which would make me nervous with a wood floor.


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## woodsy (Oct 13, 2008)

The other thing is where a high water table exists, a slab is the recommended foundation in most cases.


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## bigbob7777 (Nov 24, 2012)

Thanks all for the gr8 ideas and advice. I love unfiltered conversations. I need to really think which way to go. I'd rather spend time and do it right; than just "go cheap". Lookin forward to new conversations.

bob


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

Go slab and monolithic footer, on the outer edge, (you dig down with a shovel deeper than the slab,)


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## ozarkchaz (Feb 4, 2005)

Have you considered a steel framed building? Very Eco-Friendly!


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## RealtorMike (Aug 30, 2010)

Pole barn construction is very simple and time tested. The bottom of the posts must be below frost in your area. If you do not have to deal with frost the posts should go down to the "typical for fence posts" depth. Here we a 12 inch wide hole is dug to a 48 inch than a 4 inch concrete "cookie" is placed in the bottom of the hole, 4X6 or 6X6 post placed on top and back filled with pea stone which provides excellent compaction. Post size depends on wall height. Weight bearing side walls, which carry the roof load, posts are placed 8 foot apart. Plumbed, aligned and braced before backfilling. Purloins are 24 inches center to center on walls, carriers on top are 2X10 or 2X12 depending on load, one inside, one out.
There is more to this story and I suggest some reasearch. The pioneers used this type of construction and those barns lasted over 100 years. Success is in the planning, ask around, visit local lumber suppliers or hire a Carpenter to help.
Good luck


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## rsbhunter (Mar 25, 2012)

I know how you feel, i'm at 10,000 feet, and 10 miles in on a good dirt/gravel road that gets real steep in some places...i would go with the slab...But i'm afraid that just the delivery charge for the concrete (because of location) plus, i am almost sure that the cement plant is about 38 miles from the start of the dirt road... I have a diesel pick up...what that thing drinks isn't cheap, so i know they have to make money...plus, i can't be there for everything that needs to be done on a slab( i'm 350 miles from build site).....so i either do piers by myself (mostly), or have a guy do the whole slab job for me...and like i said, a person has to make a living....so i'm sure i'd be lucky if i could get it for $5k...20'x30'....rsbhunter


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