# Finding a self-sufficient farm



## claytonpiano (Feb 3, 2005)

I have been looking for a self-sufficient farm in my area for some time. I just want to visit and see what I might have forgotten. That may be hopeless on my part. I have read Jackie Clay, Countryside and on and on.

Still, in my mind, I keep wondering what else I might be missing should the world collapse. I keep looking for things on you-tube, but the ones I have found are the survival type. I want something that is more practical than fighting zombies.

Do any of you have recommendations for either farms that might let me come observe or even you-tube channels that might help with the what have I forgotten question?

Before making recommendations, you should know that we are already debt free, own small acreage, can and dehydrate and raise all of our own vegetables, eggs and are working on fencing for beef and pigs. 

I guess I just really want to "see" what others are doing. I would love to "see" what you are doing as well. I am aware that there are many who do not want to share and understand why you would not.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Totaly self sufficient? That would be a biggie. It would be easer to find obama's birth certificate.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Do you mean self sufficient as in NEVER get anything from the outside world ? I doubt one exists, if that is the definition. Even the space station gets a fairly regular re-supply.

So then it's simply a matter of degree. You already sound like you're already fairly far down the road. What you're looking for is someone that is a little farther than you, or several someone's you can get individual ideas from.

For example, we raise most of what we eat.....dairy products being one exception. I think I could raise a milk cow, or milk goats, but honestly, it's more commitment than I want so shell out for the return. IF the day comes I can't get a gallon of milk from the store, I'll likely commit. But not now.

Pork: we raise two-three feeder pigs per year. Spring to fall, then they go in the freezer. I could buy a boar and sow(s), but again, that 6-8mo commitment of raising some feeders I bought from somebody else is quite enough for me.

I can about guarantee IF you find a truly self sufficient farm, there won't be an internet connection, a TV antennae/dish, or likely even a phone line......because they won't have time to be ON them.....


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

http://www.polyfacefarms.com


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

I may be wrong, but I always felt that growing grains to make bread and such as probably the most difficult part of being completely self-sufficient.

I mean, lots of people grow all of their own veggies. Depending on the size of your family a few cows, pigs, goats and chickens will supply the raw materials for your meat and dairy requirements.

But, how do you figure how much grain to grow to meet your needs for flour or do you even bother. Grains could also supply much of what is needed to feed your livestock, especially during winter in northern climates.

Maybe I find this the most difficult part because I have never grown grain before nor have I ever gone through the entire process from planting grain seed all the way through to the end of the process - a loaf of bread. Do not get me wrong, I have baked my share of breads from scratch many times, but I have never supplied my own flour in a way other than buying it at a store or buying the grain and then grinding it myself.

TRellis


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

claytonpiano said:


> Do any of you have recommendations for either farms that might let me come observe or even you-tube channels that might help with the what have I forgotten question?
> 
> I guess I just really want to "see" what others are doing.


Sounds like you're right where you need to be. Between participating in this forum, Homesteading Questions, the gardening forum and all the animal forums , things will come up that say to you: "Oh, I need to think on/follow up with that..."

I've been on HT for a few years and have found the goal of self-sufficiency not only to be a process, but the comfort zone for most to be individualistic.


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## Janis R (Jun 27, 2013)

Having a water source is the most important, we have a well with a hand pump so I thought we were doing well until we had to pump water. We are now looking for property with ponds or creeks.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

TRellis said:


> I may be wrong, but I always felt that growing grains to make bread and such as probably the most difficult part of being completely self-sufficient.
> 
> I mean, lots of people grow all of their own veggies. Depending on the size of your family a few cows, pigs, goats and chickens will supply the raw materials for your meat and dairy requirements.
> 
> ...


 
I know the only grain I'm likely to ever grow would be corn. So if the day comes that I cannot buy wheat or flour, I plan to switch most of my carb intake to potatoes. I know I can grow those and I don't need to figure out how to hull the wheat and such.


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

Cyngbaeld said:


> I know the only grain I'm likely to ever grow would be corn. So if the day comes that I cannot buy wheat or flour, I plan to switch most of my carb intake to potatoes. I know I can grow those and I don't need to figure out how to hull the wheat and such.


LOL...

So I guess unless you and I have neighbors willing to trade their flour for our whatever, neither of us will have buns for our hamburgers and hotdogs/sausages, noodles for spaghetti, etc.

TRellis


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## JamieCatheryn (Feb 9, 2013)

It's not so hard to go without wheat, check out Paleo recipes, except the ones that use too much coconut and almond, that's just lazy substitutions. We went Paleo one summer and lost all our excess weight and felt awesome. Slipped after that and stopped doing as well, but now we're in a happy medium. If you lean toward low grain anyway but you want some, you could grow under 1/4 acre and build a simple drill and bucket thresher and get all you need.

Traditional feed for the animals would take a lot of grains and legumes (and scraps), best to plan for something to feed them. Grassfed and pastured is good to keep it minimal, but expect some input needed.


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## Sumatra (Dec 5, 2013)

Cyngbaeld said:


> I know the only grain I'm likely to ever grow would be corn. So if the day comes that I cannot buy wheat or flour, I plan to switch most of my carb intake to potatoes. I know I can grow those and I don't need to figure out how to hull the wheat and such.


I'd recommend trying that out for a while instead of just planning the switch. It'll be hard enough adjusting to things after a collapse without adding a totally different diet to it. 

Using potatoes as a substitute is a good idea as it gives you more of the necessary calories, but there isn't nearly as much diversity in recipes


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

No, there isn't much diversity, but when I've run out of stored grains, it will be switch or starve. I expect I'd start increasing potatoes and decreasing wheat long before running out. The thing is, I can grow more calories for less effort with potatoes over wheat. I also hope to have a fruit orchard producing before it comes to giving up wheat. 

Livestock can eat things like potatoes, carrots, turnips, cabbage to substitute for the grain that is going to be hard to grow. Might have to switch to livestock that can forage for a lot of their own groceries too.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

When we were looking for our farm, we didn't insist on totally self sufficient, but we wanted something that could possibly support us. We made sure it had a DEEP well so drought shouldn't affect it, and a pond for fish and extra water. Some woods for firewood, some pasture for animals or garden, decent fencing so we wouldn't have to spend a bunch right away (ours has bad fencing but we bought it anyway).

The one thing I wish we'd looked for is a mature orchard on the property. We've planted our own orchard, but it takes years and a steep learning curve to produce. Berry bushes and nut trees would also be good.

A greenhouse would also be nice, although you can build one yourself if you can't find a ready made one.

A house with a wood stove would also be useful, and lots of outbuildings so you have ready made chicken coop, potting shed, etc.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

TRellis said:


> I may be wrong, but I always felt that growing grains to make bread and such as probably the most difficult part of being completely self-sufficient.
> 
> I mean, lots of people grow all of their own veggies. Depending on the size of your family a few cows, pigs, goats and chickens will supply the raw materials for your meat and dairy requirements.
> 
> ...


We shifted to growing beans, that we use for our breads, pizza, snack crackers, cakes, fudge, etc.


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## Cygnet (Sep 13, 2004)

You can't ever be totally self sufficient. Even prehistoric man had trade routes. 

What you can do is focus on, in the case of a SHTF scenario, is being able to produce an excess of trade goods and/or having desirable skills. Then trade for what you need. 

For example, I would much rather grow a bushel of onions and trade for a bushel or two of grain than I would be to try to grow the grain myself. Grain is labor intensive on a small scale, onions not so much. I know onions do well here. OTOH, if I had a lot of acreage and the right equipment (and/or draft animals) to cut down on the labor, I might seriously consider growing corn or winter wheat as my trade good. 

Insert the crop of your choice, that grows well in your area, for $onion.


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## planzman (Feb 28, 2012)

Simple. Google and youtube anything

http://youtu.be/uTGilR95T44


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Maybe not focus so much on grains. Grains initially were not ground and turned into bread. They were allowed to ferment in water and create beer. The resulting beer is a better food than the grain. This would be very low alcohol (sorry to burst that bubble). It may be more efficient to concentrate on moving away from bread and pasta. If you are going to think outside the box, then think outside the box.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Cygnet said:


> You can't ever be totally self sufficient. Even prehistoric man had trade routes. ...


Consider: Karp and Akulina Lykov.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

You can grow everything you eat if you only eat what you can grow. The problem is, most of us want to eat stuff we can't grow. Then there are the things you need that you might have trouble growing, like batteries.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Wolf mom said:


> , but the comfort zone for most to be individualistic.


This is what I find is most important/telling. Even with just 2 of us, the diffrence in what we can/will live without is huge. My dh will not live without many things that I don't give much thought to. He must have his Hinze catsup , even tho I can make it from my garden/canning. I don't use the stuff. We raise beef, but he has listened to me want a milk cow FOREVER.I do not drink milk,but use alot of butter and cheeze. I have begged to take diffrent cows we have and to train them to let me milk ( I pretty much can train anything,and he has seen it)-nope.He even went to a neighbors Jeresy farm and looked in a moment of weekness-nope.I do have a neighbor I can get all the milk I want from-but only for trades. So I figure this year all the maple syrup I make will go for trade,as I don't like sweets. Dh sells all the syurp to his work buddies otherwise. A 50 lb bag of sugar lasts us years for canning and wine, and bread , is just something for me to put butter on.I can live with just an outhouse -not dh. I can go weeks without leaving the house, dh can't even go without his phone. I could go on. I went thru some of this in my first marriage when we were off grid, he would rather hang out at the bar while I gazed at the stars lying on my sofa thru the skylight. Dumped him, but I accept there are diffrent tolerances and some people like to "reward" themselves with certian things for all the work they do. I just plain like my work.


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## Ann-NWIowa (Sep 28, 2002)

If you want solid information on what is required for various crops or livestock, go to the library and get books, subscribe to periodicals that specialize in what you want to know about and investigate what information is available through the Extension Service. U-tube is great fun, but the information on U-tube is not always accurate. 

Gene Logston has a good book on small grains as well as other vry useful subjects -- web site https://thecontraryfarmer.wordpress.com/. There are numerous good books on homesteading. Everything you need to know about canning, freezing, dehydrating, storing food crops, making cheese, etc. can be found at http://nchfp.uga.edu/publications/publications_usda.html Extension Service also has information on most animals and crops. 
Its always better to go to established sources to learn the basics and then go to U-tube and Internet for adding others perspectives on the subjects.

I've often found that after an in-depth study of a subject I decide its not worth my time, financial investment and effort. The time, financial investment and effort for chickens would certainly put them on my to do list. Goats are fun animals, provide meat and milk, but require a major investment in fences and decent housing. Failure to keep your goats inside fences will result in your orchard, bush fruits and garden being ruined so I would question adding goats until/unless I had those fences. You need to look at each and every project/animal you intend to take on in-depth before you decide whether or not you can manage it.


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## ncchickenmama (Aug 21, 2013)

You might consider going to look at some living history farms within our state. There is one called Island Farm in Manteo that is fairly self-sufficient to an extent, they do living history demonstrations various weekends of how the family would have lived and farmed in the mid-19th century. 

Also there is Horne Creek Farm in the rural northwestern piedmont near Pilot Mountain, a great living history farm with some neat educational programming. 

Visiting these places may help you think of skills you still need to learn and help you understand how homesteads worked without modern conveniences.


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

ET1 SS said:


> We shifted to growing beans, that we use for our breads, pizza, snack crackers, cakes, fudge, etc.


I had never heard of using beans to make breads and what not. Something new to research. (As if I did not already have enough. LOL)

Thanks!

TRellis


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

We have a friend [Will Bonsal]who grows a wide assortment of grains, in small 20' X 20' plots. He operates a non-profit seedbank with many heritage grains that were found in ancient tombs, etc. They must all be grown so often to keep them viable. He supplies seed to anyone. From each of his grows, the surplus harvest is used to feed his family. I have attended a few of his presentations, he is a fascinating speaker.

Our land is largely wet and forested. It is not conducive to growing grains. My Dw found that she can produce beans very well in buckets. She now grows beans in 80-buckets, 5 plants per bucket. Every year she researches / develops one new bean recipe. At our annual homesteading fair, we demonstrate: how beans are grown, how they are ground to flour, all the baked goods that she has came up with, and we hand-out samples of these baked goods. We started with pizza crusts, then breads. Later snack crackers, chocolate cakes, fudge, oatmeal cookies.


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## claytonpiano (Feb 3, 2005)

To clarify, the scenario I listed in the original post was not about what you can and do not want to do without. Circumstances in a collapse means that you have no choice about some things that you must do without. This might include the ability to trade.....think Syria and Iraq at the moment. True this is a horrible situation and the ability to continue breathing would be the issue there. I am praying daily for that entire situation. Some things only God and prayer will change.

I truly believe we, personally, can survive in a collapse given no outside issues from roving bands etc. We have lived for a year on just what we grew and produced here with the exception of sugar, salt, apples and wheat. We had to use storage for that. I am attempting to grow a small plot of wheat, but am not sure how well that is doing given the frozen ground for the last month or so. True, mankind has traded for centuries, but my goal in this post is acquiring as much knowledge as possible to be totally self-sufficient.....at least for a time.

What works for self-sufficiency in Wisconsin is different here in NC. As usual, Cyngbaeld has given a wonderfully practical answer with the potato idea. NC being a sweet potato haven presents with a great idea for good food, starch and calories. 

The idea of grinding beans works as well. I have done that to produce a bread that we can tolerate. Growing enough beans, however, is something of a challenge when you are feeding more than two. Also, shelling, drying and preparing all need to be considered. So, what practical ideas do you have for making that easier and less time consuming?

Thanks to all who have shared so far. Great ideas and I appreciate all of you taking the time to answer.


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## claytonpiano (Feb 3, 2005)

Cyngbaeld said:


> No, there isn't much diversity, but when I've run out of stored grains, it will be switch or starve. I expect I'd start increasing potatoes and decreasing wheat long before running out. The thing is, I can grow more calories for less effort with potatoes over wheat. I also hope to have a fruit orchard producing before it comes to giving up wheat.
> 
> Livestock can eat things like potatoes, carrots, turnips, cabbage to substitute for the grain that is going to be hard to grow. Might have to switch to livestock that can forage for a lot of their own groceries too.


This is an important post. These crops are easy to grow and if we can have enough storage, then our livestock can survive the winter. 

I think at that point, livestock rotation will be key and only having animals that are manageable......hence not ruining the pasture would be really important. I get lax when it is hot and just let the critters stay too long and supplement with feed. Even stockpiling pasture becomes a great idea for winter....although, this winter would have been a disaster without the stored items the Cyng describes!


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

So, I just had to look up bean flour. One person uses an electric mill. another uses a common blender. I think this is doable.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

claytonpiano said:


> ... The idea of grinding beans works as well. I have done that to produce a bread that we can tolerate. Growing enough beans, however, is something of a challenge when you are feeding more than two. Also, shelling, drying and preparing all need to be considered. So, what practical ideas do you have for making that easier and less time consuming?
> 
> Thanks to all who have shared so far. Great ideas and I appreciate all of you taking the time to answer.


I think that with all crops there is some work required. There are a few crops that are ready to eat without processing. For example apples are pretty much ready to eat, as they come off the trees. Last year we harvested 6 bushels, as our orchard comes into it's maturity the harvest should climb. But nobody can eat such a quantity of apples before they rot. So even though it is a crop that can be eaten without any further processing. To store them, they require processing [labor].

Among the various things my Dw grows is beans. She has been using beans as a wheat substitute, for gluten-free baked goods.

To our palate bean-flour bread tastes identical to Whole-Wheat bread. When combined with chocolate or cinnamon you can not taste 'bean' at all.

If processing beans is too much labor, then don't it.

We produce: honey, maple, elderberry, blueberry, pork, eggs, plums, grapes, fiddleheads, and an assortment of herbs. All of it requires labor.


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

http://vegetables.wsu.edu/NicheMarket/SmallScaleHarvesting.html

Harvesting and shelling dry beans.

Daughter eats a lot of dry beans due to celiac, but I can't tolerate them due to kidney problems. They are good to boost protein intake for livestock too.

I use gluten free oat flour for baked goods for daughter. Of course I do not grow the oats, much less hull them. She can eat potatoes and all veggies though.


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## Farmer Willy (Aug 7, 2005)

Seems to me that there cannot be such a thing. Taking something out the system will require something to be put back. Not even the planet is self sufficient. Without input from the sun things shut down.

I suppose what you are looking for is the lowest input place you can find. The trick is in keeping the difference from becoming too much.


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## sdnapier (Aug 13, 2010)

claytonpiano said:


> I have been looking for a self-sufficient farm in my area for some time. I just want to visit and see what I might have forgotten. That may be hopeless on my part. I have read Jackie Clay, Countryside and on and on.
> 
> Still, in my mind, I keep wondering what else I might be missing should the world collapse. I keep looking for things on you-tube, but the ones I have found are the survival type. I want something that is more practical than fighting zombies.
> 
> ...


I am impressed. You could be the one doing the tours/seminars. Let me know what your hours are


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## Homesteader (Jul 13, 2002)

Not that this will answer your questions, but I really enjoy this family's homesteading adventures, on utube, do a search: an american homestead


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

Look for land with not only decent pasture, but also enough hay to get all your livestock through winter. Hard to be self sufficient without hay unless you plan on hunting/fishing or just doing without regular meat.

As far as the self sufficiency goes, you certainly CAN be completely self sufficient even with poor quality land and short seasons. Here's an interesting story of a Russian family who lived completely on their own in the harsh siberian wilderness, successfully, for 40+ years;

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...ntact-unaware-of-world-war-ii-7354256/?no-ist


So there's your proof. Complete self sufficiency absolutely possible.

Now the question is how important is complete self sufficiency to you and how much are you willing to give up to achieve it?


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

Darntootin said:


> ... As far as the self sufficiency goes, you certainly CAN be completely self sufficient even with poor quality land and short seasons. Here's an interesting story of a Russian family who lived completely on their own in the harsh siberian wilderness, successfully, for 40+ years;
> 
> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...ntact-unaware-of-world-war-ii-7354256/?no-ist
> 
> ...


Up in post #18


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Self sufficient is impossible, period. Get it out of your head. This is a fairy tale put out for those who have something to sell or an agenda to forward. Self reliance may be more like it. It's difficult to do it all, impossible probably, but maybe on a most basic level. . If you plan on using fuel, electricity, even home generated, you'll need the outside world. Any thing you can't do for yourself, anything that needs to be purchased, you'll need money. That right there says you'll have to tie in to the system sooner or later. I do think it's prudent to be as self reliant as possible, whether homesteading or not. The wise person is constantly accessing his situation, constantly updating and improving their journey towards self reliance. So far no one I know has got there. Well except for a neighbor who has a couple container tomatoes and picks a few handfuls of berries from the side of the road and now has declared that he lives off the land. Rant over, what was the OT?


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## claytonpiano (Feb 3, 2005)

bowdonkey said:


> Self sufficient is impossible, period. Get it out of your head. This is a fairy tale put out for those who have something to sell or an agenda to forward. Self reliance may be more like it. It's difficult to do it all, impossible probably, but maybe on a most basic level. . If you plan on using fuel, electricity, even home generated, you'll need the outside world. Any thing you can't do for yourself, anything that needs to be purchased, you'll need money. That right there says you'll have to tie in to the system sooner or later. I do think it's prudent to be as self reliant as possible, whether homesteading or not. The wise person is constantly accessing his situation, constantly updating and improving their journey towards self reliance. So far no one I know has got there. Well except for a neighbor who has a couple container tomatoes and picks a few handfuls of berries from the side of the road and now has declared that he lives off the land. Rant over, what was the OT?


I think everyone who reads this portion of Homesteading Today already knows what you have shared. I certainly do. Mankind lived for centuries without electricity. How foolish to think that there are those of us who cannot or won't. It is also ridiculous to think that man lives like an island without contact with the outside world. It is never a fairy tale to attempt to prepare as well as we can and ask for help from friends who might be able to share more knowledge than we have managed to acquire. Our family can and has lived mostly on only what we stored or produced for a year. We had, however, prepared financially for just such a time. That is also being self-sufficient....being prepared to handle what life throws at us. I learned how to do this from a lady in the paragraph below.

I remember sitting with a lady preparing for a piano festival. She had walked to the house in this upscale neighborhood to assist with the mountains of paper work involved. I just happened to be assigned to the same task as she and we were chatting. She knew that we raised organic vegetables and animals and questioned how we were doing that in the city. I shared a little bit, but she shared even more. Her husband had been out of a job for more than a year. They had lived on food storage and their savings. The only expenses they had were a small amount for electricity, taxes, and internet. She had walked to where we were working in order to not use gasoline. I had thought she was a fellow piano teacher, but she was actually a mom who bartered for the piano lessons for her children. Her help with paper work was part of the barter arrangement. Now, you might not think she was self-sufficient, but she told me that through turning their backyard into a vegetable garden and picking berries and bartering for apples, they had extended their food supply greatly. When I asked her how much longer she thought they could live like this, she told me probably for another year or even more if her husband could keep the part time job he had just acquired. Thankfully, their house was paid for. She had secured clothing for her kids by forming a clothing swap. Were they self-sufficient? I think so. They worked to provide food and used their brains for barter. To me.....that is true self-sufficiency.

I have never believed that you can rely totally on yourself for complete survival. God placed us here with the desire for fellowship with each other. We learn from each other. We build on what others have discovered and shared. Folks who are truly self-sufficient have built relationships with family and like-minded people who you can count on in a crisis. That, too, is self-sufficiency. We often leave out that aspect. 

In the quoted post you did rant, but gave no solution. How can we improve what we are doing? Instead, you are critical of your neighbor who has at least taken a step towards providing some things for himself with tomatoes and berries. We all started somewhere. We all thought we were doing fantastic until we learned more. His living off the land is inadequate of course, but maybe there will be a way you can help him improve in the future. Isn't that part of what life is about....not only improving your life, but attempting in some fashion to help the lives of those around us? I guess that is my rant.


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## claytonpiano (Feb 3, 2005)

Homesteader said:


> Not that this will answer your questions, but I really enjoy this family's homesteading adventures, on utube, do a search: an american homestead


These are great!! Thanks!


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

bowdonkey said:


> Self sufficient is impossible, period. Get it out of your head. This is a fairy tale put out for those who have something to sell or an agenda to forward. Self reliance may be more like it. It's difficult to do it all, impossible probably, but maybe on a most basic level. . If you plan on using fuel, electricity, even home generated, you'll need the outside world. Any thing you can't do for yourself, anything that needs to be purchased, you'll need money. That right there says you'll have to tie in to the system sooner or later. I do think it's prudent to be as self reliant as possible, whether homesteading or not. The wise person is constantly accessing his situation, constantly updating and improving their journey towards self reliance. So far no one I know has got there. Well except for a neighbor who has a couple container tomatoes and picks a few handfuls of berries from the side of the road and now has declared that he lives off the land. Rant over, what was the OT?


Complete nonsense. Self reliance/sufficiency is absolutely possible, its been done and is documented. Period. There is no argument. Man does not need other people to survive, that is a myth.


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## Sumatra (Dec 5, 2013)

Why the frequent insistence that self-sufficiency is impossible? Regardless of whether or not it can be done, most people who use that word never take it so literally. Just like how apparently you can't have a homestead unless it fell under the Homestead Act? Or how you can't have a farm unless you fall into a certain criteria which few of us can agree on at the same time? All those labels homesteading, modern homesteading, self-sufficiency, self-reliance, sustainable living,etc... mean different things to the people using them. And pointing it out doesn't do much but increase disagreements and start more names for what people are doing.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Darntootin said:


> Complete nonsense. Self reliance/sufficiency is absolutely possible, its been done and is documented. Period. There is no argument. Man does not need other people to survive, that is a myth.


Show me one. Everyone has to rely on someone else sooner or later. Usually sooner. No one on HT is there. Like I said, get as self reliant as possible. Worthwhile endeavour in my book, whether for making a better homesteading experience or getting ready for hard times. IMHO, it was MEN that's done more to promote this fallacy.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Darntootin said:


> Complete nonsense. Self reliance/sufficiency is absolutely possible, its been done and is documented. Period. There is no argument. Man does not need other people to survive, that is a myth.


Ya know, a little more meat in that post and I would have awarded you the first Grumpy Gold Star award!


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

bowdonkey said:


> Ya know, a little more meat in that post and I would have awarded you the first Grumpy Gold Star award!


Thanks Bowdonkey! Love your posts. I've just seen this issue come up alot on HT over the years, its been argued to death. Self reliance is absolutely possible, there are a number of historically documented cases. I have no doubt that there are millions of people living that way all over the world. Yet you see people on HT making that claim that it is "impossible", because they don't/can't do it. Baloney.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Maura said:


> Maybe not focus so much on grains. Grains initially were not ground and turned into bread. They were allowed to ferment in water and create beer. The resulting beer is a better food than the grain. This would be very low alcohol (sorry to burst that bubble). It may be more efficient to concentrate on moving away from bread and pasta. If you are going to think outside the box, then think outside the box.


I like this idea!


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Go on youtube and check out the BBC series "Wartime Garden". They have others, but I think this one is most relevant to where your at now.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

its more than possible...its the level of it you/me/we might not like....lol....it might mean grits and opossum gravy 5 days a week washed down with water..instead of what we want....it might mean weeding the garden more instead of surfing the net...it might mean fixing cut hands and nails from had work instead of manicures and painted nails....lol.

its the our level of perception that keeps us from it.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

bowdonkey said:


> Ya know, a little more meat in that post and I would have awarded you the first Grumpy Gold Star award!


You were so close DT. History would have been made. Probably best you didn't get it. Everyone would have been so jealous.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt2AYafET68[/ame]


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

elkhound said:


> its more than possible...its the level of it you/me/we might not like....lol....it might mean grits and opossum gravy 5 days a week washed down with water..instead of what we want....it might mean weeding the garden more instead of surfing the net...it might mean fixing cut hands and nails from had work instead of manicures and painted nails....lol.
> 
> its the our level of perception that keeps us from it.


 Forget the defintions, I totally agree you can be somewhat self sufficient. But you will always need something you can't produce yourself. I'm splitting hairs. I know to many people who claim they need no one. They tell me this while living in a modern home, sitting in 
a vehicle with the window rolled down while having a chat with me. I'm
not buying it. Tell me that while wearing a loinclothe made out of a feedsack or better still a sunbaked roadkilled deer hide and maybe then I'll listen.


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

bowdonkey said:


> Forget the defintions, I totally agree you can be somewhat self sufficient. But you will always need something you can't produce yourself.



Simply not true. Sorry donk, history proves you wrong;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Selkirk

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/ist/?...uman-contact-unaware-of-world-war-ii-7354256/

There are more but that should be enough to prove the point. Not sure you can claim something is "impossible" when several people have posted documented proof of people who have done it.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

I researched them when it was first posted awhile back. Very impressive survival story. They where at the top of the class for mental, physical toughness, resourcefulness, and self reliance. But not exactly self sufficient! LMAO.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

bowdonkey said:


> Forget the defintions, I totally agree you can be somewhat self sufficient. But you will always need something you can't produce yourself. I'm splitting hairs. I know to many people who claim they need no one. They tell me this while living in a modern home, sitting in
> a vehicle with the window rolled down while having a chat with me. I'm
> not buying it. Tell me that while wearing a loinclothe made out of a feedsack or better still a sunbaked roadkilled deer hide and maybe then I'll listen.



we cant wear loin clothes in siberia....lol...well you can...i aint that tuff i want to be covered in fur and stay close to a pile of locust/oak coals till spring comes...roflmao


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

bowdonkey said:


> I researched them when it was first posted awhile back. Very impressive survival story. They where at the top of the class for mental, physical toughness, resourcefulness, and self reliance. But not exactly self sufficient! LMAO.



A family living completely cut off from other humans for 70 years were not self sufficient? You must have a unique definition of self sufficiency.

I dont think this family were all that unique. I think situations like this were very common through history.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

then explain the 1000's of year natives survived on their own?


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

Darntootin said:


> A family living completely cut off from other humans for 70 years were not self sufficient? You must have a unique definition of self sufficiency.
> 
> I dont think this family were all that unique. I think situations like this were very common through history.



yep i agree.....if it wasnt so then humankind would have never made it...just look at the population pre industrial revolution/electricity etc. they made it.....but not like we currently live....but all wont survive it either in that situation if it happens in the future.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

i talked with an amish kid about 14 once back in 1994 he was asking about the harness hames i had on my work horse that were light weight metal..i told him they were recycled chainsaw motor blocks he said hmm and i could see he was puzzled...he finally said a chainsaw? i explained it to him...he said on yea i have heard of them but never seen one before....these were some real old school isolated amish.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Darntootin said:


> Simply not true. Sorry donk, history proves you wrong;
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Selkirk
> 
> ...


Selkirk was an inspiration in HS. A master survivalist, that needed someone to manufacturer his gun and powder for him. Even that nail he sewed with! We are approaching this from two very different points of view. I'm splitting hairs. The idea you can go it alone, you need no one is a fallacy. I know you're just mad you didn't get the award.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

elkhound said:


> we cant wear loin clothes in siberia....lol...well you can...i aint that tuff i want to be covered in fur and stay close to a pile of locust/oak coals till spring comes...roflmao


They are actually quite comfortable, if you keep a can of Gold Bond handy. I tried using road dust like a chicken, but just to abrasive. :happy2:


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

Alexander Selkirk is the most widely known example of one individual marooned on an island for four years. He survived by catching fish, foraging, and chasing down small goats. Back in those days it was common for captains to maroon sailors on islands, and there are other examples of men living alone and surviving for years.

As Elkhound points out we now that there were, and are, indigenous people throughout the world that lived and thrived in isolated places, far removed from other people. 

We know from these examples and many others, that self reliance is not only possible but common.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

elkhound said:


> then explain the 1000's of year natives survived on their own?


They had each other. They didn't survive on their own. Even Ishi couldn't do it. Have you two hardheads LMAO read "Island of the Blue Dolphins".


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

i am biased about what i am to say...lol...but i think the appalachian mtn folks are some of the most self sufficient...self reliant there has been....mainly because of certain knowledge and the land base itself.....i mean theres a reason they made the foxfire books...they done tons of stuff without outside interference.....bowdonkey...they even made blackpowder themselves.family cland controlled huge sections of land and many were very isolated.they didnt need anything the outside world had to offer....thats a quote from many old timers too.but i do admit its close to being gone...maybe for good too.

theres a reason they settled here...the land base and what it would/could do....wood for everyday items from spoons and bowls to a home with a shake roof you split yaself.....but i do adnmit you at least needed a small array of tools...axe,hatchet,mallet and a froe.

not to mention the medicinals growing wild here.

ramble ramble ramble....lol


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

bowdonkey said:


> Selkirk was an inspiration in HS. A master survivalist, that needed someone to manufacturer his gun and powder for him. Even that nail he sewed with! We are approaching this from two very different points of view. I'm splitting hairs. The idea you can go it alone, you need no one is a fallacy. I know you're just mad you didn't get the award.


Definitely splitting hairs. Who made the bow that the indian used to take game? He did. nobody manufactured it for him. A bow can take game as well as a musket. The presumption that Selkirk wouldnt have survived if not for the nail is too far out. It doesnt prove your position.

The idea that a person cannot go it alone is a myth!! Dis-proven over and over

And , yes, I am jealous that I didnt get the award. But your still wrong.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

i would rather be in a small clan i tire of talking to myself....lol


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

theres a small private museum close by i may go visit and ask if i can take pictures...they have some of the coolest stuff you ever seen...theres hollowed out tree trunks the size of 55 gallon drums there they used for storage....a big wooden bowl thingy that was a bathtub all from mid 1800's from here with story of where in area it came from and the family etc.its really cool place to see.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

theres these great big mounds here in my area...huge....they are old hand built furnaces were they smelted ore from the dirt here....not a factory...just a furnace in the open.theres one close by road and its getting real over grown now i may try and get a few pictures of it...most dont even know what it is...they think its a tiny hill....lol


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Darntootin said:


> Definitely splitting hairs. Who made the bow that the indian used to take game? He did. nobody manufactured it for him. A bow can take game as well as a musket. The presumption that Selkirk wouldnt have survived if not for the nail is too far out. It doesnt prove your position.
> 
> The idea that a person cannot go it alone is a myth!! Dis-proven over and over
> 
> And , yes, I am jealous that I didnt get the award. But your still wrong.


OK, I'm wrong and your right, LMAO. :happy2:


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

bowdonkey said:


> OK, I'm wrong and your right, LMAO. :happy2:


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

getting a place set up is key to what most modern people think of self sufficient place and again its their perception and needs also.

have established fields..pasture and hay....high tinsel fence to me is the best long term fence around...some i built in 1990 still looks exactly now like the day installed....woven wire wont do that...


infrastructure...it makes the logistics of daily living so much better and go smoother too..it makes you efficient...plus your practiced skill sets.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

elkhound said:


>


ROTFLMAO, oh gosh that was the best. I think Clayton thinks we're a bunch of loonies. I think we answered his questions though. Do you guys realize how much time we burned up? -8 right now outside so I'm not feeling to guilty.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

elkhound said:


> getting a place set up is key to what most modern people think of self sufficient place and again its their perception and needs also.
> 
> have established fields..pasture and hay....high tinsel fence to me is the best long term fence around...some i built in 1990 still looks exactly now like the day installed....woven wire wont do that...
> 
> ...


Got a question, did you purchase your fencing?


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

i knew if i gave you a gold star you would wet ya hockey draws with delight...roflmao


oh we do have a bit of fun tossed in during the winter time as we do try and hash out answers and opposing views on subject matter.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

bowdonkey said:


> Got a question, did you purchase your fencing?



yep...i traded 100 gallon of my molasses for it....they guys wife was tired of eating plain pancakes and he wanted molasses cookies....lol..other wise it woulda been lik old timers done around here...split rail fence.....lol

i guess you missed the part where i said most modern types of today talking about setting up a farm.....lol....you ornery thing...lol

when better products come along and you have ability only a fool wouldnt upgrade a bit in key items...like fencing....or a wood cook stove over cooking in a fireplace or a rocketstove so yu can cook on dropped twigs instead of cutting and chopping wood so often.


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

I bought all my fencing too. I never claimed to be all 100% self sufficient with self made everything. I've never run a marathon either but I can assure you it's possible.



...of course *some* might say that running a marathon is not possible because the runners are wearing shoes!


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Clayton, download the free Aldiko app. Then go to www.manybooks.net, or Guttenberg.org, or jubilee 101.com and knock yourself out. Lots of pioneer and old time knowledge. Lots of farming and gardening books from the 18th and 19th centuries. And free of charge. You absorb even half the knowledge there and you can walk around like ole Donk and tell everyone they're doing it wrong! There I fixed it. You're getting to be a real pain DT. Speaking of DTs, I think it's time for some medication!


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

bowdonkey said:


> Clayton, download the free Aldiko app. Then go to www.manybooks.org, or Guttenberg.org, or jubilee 101.com and knock yourself out. Lots of pioneer and old time knowledge. Lots of farming and gardening books from the 18th and 19th centuries. And free of charge. You absorb even half the knowledge there and you can walk around like ole Donk and tell everyone they're doing it wrong!


Aaah, that domain has expired. Looks like you got it wrong again! LOL:hysterical::nana:


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

I just downloaded "How to win any argument", free book on kindle today. You guys are done for it now. He-he-he.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Wow...I got 3 cords of wood cut/split while ya'll were having this discussion.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

TnAndy said:


> Wow...I got 3 cords of wood cut/split while ya'll were having this discussion.


I moved 2 cords of wood..... but it was already cut and split.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

workaholics...snort...roflmao.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

elkhound said:


> workaholics...snort...roflmao.


That's a dirty word around here. I try to be as lazy as possible!


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## claytonpiano (Feb 3, 2005)

Wow, just wow! Too much thinking. Tires me out. :bored:

I did go to an organic growers society conference this past weekend in Asheville. The man in the permaculture class showed us a manual oil press. Too much work. I'm sticking with animal fat. My arms hurt just looking at it. Reminds me of trying to use the Country Living Grain Mill for real. Maybe it is because I am female, but I might starve before I can get enough grain ground for one loaf. Hoping the solar panels or generator will run the electric one. Otherwise, Cyng's idea of potatoes becomes a necessity.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

claytonpiano said:


> Wow, just wow! Too much thinking. Tires me out. :bored:
> 
> I did go to an organic growers society conference this past weekend in Asheville. The man in the permaculture class showed us a manual oil press. Too much work. I'm sticking with animal fat. My arms hurt just looking at it. Reminds me of trying to use the Country Living Grain Mill for real. Maybe it is because I am female, but I might starve before I can get enough grain ground for one loaf. Hoping the solar panels or generator will run the electric one. Otherwise, Cyng's idea of potatoes becomes a necessity.


I'd have never guessed from your post you were a woman. Hope we didn't come on too strong for ya. You can never really tell from our forum names. I found out 7thSwan was a lady a year or two ago, and in the past couple weeks MOcows and Darntootin were women. And DixieBees is a guy. Thank you everyone for being gracious about my mistakes.


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## MOSSYNUT (Aug 8, 2014)

I have several people that I subscribe to on yt Wranglerstar, jnull0, and ....
I just drew a blank. If I remember when I get home I might be able to send you a link that should have all the ones I watch. Mostly gardening and homestead stuff with just a few to keep me up to date on the latest zombie situation.


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## claytonpiano (Feb 3, 2005)

bowdonkey said:


> I'd have never guessed from your post you were a woman. Hope we didn't come on too strong for ya. You can never really tell from our forum names. I found out 7thSwan was a lady a year or two ago, and in the past couple weeks MOcows and Darntootin were women. And DixieBees is a guy. Thank you everyone for being gracious about my mistakes.


Too funny! I'm married to a male. He is, how shall we say?????, a STRONG personality. He is not interested in grinding wheat, however. He loves his tractor and tools.


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

claytonpiano said:


> I have been looking for a self-sufficient farm in my area for some time. I just want to visit and see what I might have forgotten. That may be hopeless on my part. I have read Jackie Clay, Countryside and on and on.
> 
> Still, in my mind, I keep wondering what else I might be missing should the world collapse. I keep looking for things on you-tube, but the ones I have found are the survival type. I want something that is more practical than fighting zombies.
> 
> ...


Should the world collapse? and you want to be safe? WOW! I don't think any place would be safe?

I'm still a decade plus from retirement, but I make plans for the future, in todays world. I've got a retirement plan I invest in, land, etc. It doesn't amount to a hill of beans if things got tough. Some would say I'm overboard. I've invested in long term storage things, that could become barter items...they are barter items now!

I've always been one to try and look into the future. What we do today can affect us in years ahead. Such is agriculture! Long term...but it requires you look at short term as well. Short term meaning a year or three...or four...or five?

Still...I'm 'bout as smart as a bucket of rocks!

Most farms can't make their way, cuz the profit margin is to slim. Big or small! Big farms, can farm the govt. Little farms can also do so, but on a smaller scale.

_If it collapsed, I would defend home as long as I could, but then would hope I could simply disappear? Hopeful that I could cache as much as I could. That isn't very realistic, however._


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