# Newbie hydro power questions



## BlueberryChick (May 12, 2008)

Okay, we are new to the idea of alternative energy so feel free to talk down to me. It will probably help. We live on a river, but cannot divert the flow. The idea is to put a pipe into the river, starting with a large one, getting smaller to create pressure then using that flow to turn a turbine for a generator. Does that sound feasible? We have a fully ON-grid house; could we generate enough power for it? Or at least enough to reduce our dependence on the power company?

Blue


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

you cannot create power. only transfer energy from one form to another. water power to electrical power is what you want. to have water power you have to have large flows through your device at low pressures or small flows at large pressures. any device you use to transfer energy has effeciency losses. 1 hp = 746 watts = 550 lbs of weight moved one foot in one second. say an efficency of 10 % would roughly = 5500 lbs of water moving one foot in one second. generally a device called an undershot waterwheel was used in situtations like you describe. the paddles of the wheel form the dam itself. the answer is it would take a major outlay of capital to make a dam or broad waterwheel to transfer the energy to electrical if it were not so , everybody would be doing it.


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

Grid electricity is far far cheaper than creating your own electricity. You want to "reduce your dependence" on the power company by installing hydro-electric power? And why do you care if you're dependent on the power company? Its just a service/product you purchase, not unlike many other services/products.

Are you going to quit fueling your vehicles, quit purchasing phone service, quit purchasing food, quit purchasing propane or natural gas, firewood? Unless you're willing to live in the middle of nowhere like a pioneer, you're gonna be dependant on something.

If you want to "reduce your dependence" - the best place to start is by reducing your consumption. Where the energy comes from is not really an issue - how wisely you use that energy is far more important.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

unfortunately, your idea is probably considered diverting the flow. they get you coming and going. 

i have seen designs for floating undershot water wheels and i think that is a great idea for low head applications. i think gary has some links to good hydropower info at www.builditsolar.com 

about the practicality and expense...what is the value of security and independence? lots of people talk down on alternative energy production because of the cost. what happens when the grid power goes off for a week or two due to a storm or other disaster? i like the idea of having some means to power certain items in the household when the grid power fails. you can bust your butt all summer and fill the freezer and all it takes is a day or two without grid power to lose it all. consider it a hobby. how much money do people spend on their hobbies? how practical is $2000 worth of skydiving, scuba or ski gear?


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

MELOC said:


> about the practicality and expense...what is the value of security and independence? lots of people talk down on alternative energy production because of the cost. what happens when the grid power goes off for a week or two due to a storm or other disaster? i like the idea of having some means to power certain items in the household when the grid power fails. you can bust your butt all summer and fill the freezer and all it takes is a day or two without grid power to lose it all. consider it a hobby. how much money do people spend on their hobbies? how practical is $2000 worth of skydiving, scuba or ski gear?



*Wise words that more should pay heed to.*


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## BlueberryChick (May 12, 2008)

MELOC, thanks for the link. We'll check it out, keeping in mind the "diverting the flow" problem. Also, you, OntarioMan and ace admirer hit on another point, that of cost. I should have been clearer, we aren't looking at this as a cheap solution. More as a backup system, to run at least the water pump, freezer, etc. I like the mindset of "hobby". 

OntarioMan, I've been thinking about your points. I _should_ be able to articulate why I care. The answer is I care about dependence on the power company because I can't control outages. We are in the middle of nowhere and if power goes out, it could be quite a while until they get to us. You also made me think of other areas of our lives where we try to "reduce dependence". We grow and preserve some of our food. We started keeping chickens this spring to provide eggs. Are we still dependent on the grocery stores? Yes, but a little less than we were a year ago. We have a wood stove for heat in the winter, and have plenty of wood on our property to burn. I use a clothesline to dry clothes. You are right that reducing usage is the best place to start, but we are still looking for alternatives.

The road to complete self-sufficiency is long and challenging for us and my family will probably not see the end of it, but I'd rather be on that road than sitting still. 

Blue


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Blue don't give up hope.
Theres another unit that you could try.
No pipes
No diversion
No big (fun to look at) water wheels.
It kind of looks like the lower unit of an outboard motor. You suspend this 'machine' into the current and the flowing water turns the propeller--turning the alternator.. . . . . .
the out put might not be great . . . .But its 24\7
And its not visable to others unless your right on top of it . . .

Ok, No I've never played with one of these . . .
AND . . .I don't know anything about how much "flow" it takes to generate any amount of power. . . . .How much flow do you have . . . .???
The beauty of water power is its 24\7 consistency.

Don't be discouraged by someone saying "Oh its not worth it" etc.etc.

From the attitude I perceive in your postings, if this unit worked (at your location) . . . . you would have a big smile of satisfaction on your face.


Last disclaimer: Like I said it does need a fair amount of water flow . . . . .


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

Blue,
Is this the same river in the picture that you posted on the gardening section?

If so, why not post it here. It might give some ideas to the other posters.

Neat project you are working on. Even if you do very little with the power you create, it is wonderful that no fossil fuels were burned. It does us all some good!

Clove


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

Oh, BTW, do a google search for small hydro.

Lots and lots to learn and see.

I saw at least one inline water wheel that did NOT utilize a sluice or a dam, and utilized gears to speed up the generator, thus creating more electricity.

Clove


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

the axial flow turbines (prop or "motor boat unit" takes a stream flow of about 10 miles per hour. to start generating any electricity.

hp = gpm x psi / 1714 every foot of head water = about 0.433 psi. if you have a waterfall of about 5 feet or more and around 500 gpm and the generator was not too far from your home, you could get about 100 watts of power. each set of gears will loose about 25 % efficiency. gears dont make electricity. they convert torque into speed (higher rpms). required since most (not all) generators need to turn a few hundred to a couple of thousand rpm. power in =power out - efficiency. 

in the 40 years that i have been in study of hydraulic power, i have NEVER actually seen a water plant (river or stream) that did not have water falling a distance. . usually either daming up an entire stream to develop a head or diverting a portion of a stream around a natural water fall to allow the diverted water to pressurize a mixed flow turbine or flow over a water wheel, the most efficient of which is the overshot wheel at around 74% in itself. most of the old watermills in my area have been taken away by floods. 

have you considered solar. for a few thousand, a few panels, batteries, inverter and switchgear could be had. with these a couple hundred watts could be collected for about 5 hours a day. i'm using a few to power an old sharecroppers house that i use for the kids playhouse.


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

ace admirer said:


> the axial flow turbines (prop or "motor boat unit" takes a stream flow of about 10 miles per hour. to start generating any electricity.


That's certainly not true of the units I have seen.
Concidering that water is 1000 times as dense as air its not surprising that useful amonts of enerrgy can be recovered in streamflows as low as 2 mph


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

i'm sure that useful amounts of power could be made with flows as low as zero mph. and drops of zero fall. show me


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Sure not a problem but as a matter of manners I should wait till you have proved both of your statements.

http://www.wildnatureimages.com/Fish Wheel 1.htm

Even the tiny propeller style generater mentioned in the following will work down to 6 mph.

http://www.daycreek.com/DC/html/DC_hydro.htm

obviosly since the old fashioned multi blade wind mills will pump water in airspeeds down to 8 mph they will work in water at a much lower speed.


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## cindy71 (Jul 7, 2008)

THE POWER COMPANY......What a joke....... I will be doing all I can to go solor,wind, and water power as soon as we sell this place and get more land. As for the power co. they raise rate all the time just this year it gone up 3 times. You ask why they tell you because the cost of fuel most of ours come from river flow thats free, but now due to the drought in the S.E. they are using that as an excuse. Here is my epenion people are cutting back using more efficient light bulbs and applinces now so usage is down so to keep profits up they have to raise rates........ Just my to cents worth.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

In designing hydro systems, I use the following calculation to give me the estimated watts at the hydro generator. Watts = Head * GPM * 0.054. For instance, at my trout pond, I have a incoming penstock that produces 55 GPM of water with approximately 12 feet of head. The amount of power I could anticipate is 12 * 55* .054 or 35 watts. This does not take into account wire loss in moving that power from the hydro generator to a point of use or storage (eg batteries). 

jim


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

fantasymaker said:


> Sure not a problem but as a matter of manners I should wait till you have proved both of your statements.
> 
> http://www.wildnatureimages.com/Fish Wheel 1.htm
> 
> ...


a fish wheel is a device to catch fish....it is not producing any power....except to lift a basket with a fish in it to dump it into a trough. has nothing to do with generating electricity,,,unless it caught an electric eel. the glacial flows in the copper river can be fairly fast,, known for some of it rapids....the photo of the fish catcher seems to have flows around it of around 8 to perhaps 10 mph.and a flow of...well millions of gallons per hour and certainly would make useful power,,,,if it were not taken away by flood flows.

the second site posted seems to be a generalization overview. 

"Typically, a generator of this kind costs around $1,200 and can produce between 1.5 KWh and 2.4 KWh per day. " the engineer in me wonders how in the world you make 1.5 killo watt hour in a day. doesn't even make sense. is that 1500wattshours/24 hours/day???? if so, thats about 63 watts. if so thats a break even for the unit itself of two years...with batteries/inverters/efficiencies,,,break even would be around 7 to ten years....thats an off the cuff estimate.....its a unit first designed to tow behind sail boats to keep batteries charged for navigation lights and radio. 

here is a paste from the company that makes and sells the unit in the article:

Ampair UW Water Turbine 
$1,528.00
Web Price Only!
ABS Part No.: AQUW-SHP
Ampair UW Water Turbine
Click to enlarge

Ampair's 100 watt UW100 water generator (formerly the Aquair UW) is a very durable, versatile solution for home or marine hydroelectric power for 12V, 24V and 48V DC power systems. The forward facing shrouded 3 bladed propeller drives a permanent magnet alternator producing up to 8 Amps output current for a 12 volt system.

The propeller, cable exit and rear of the casing are all double sealed. The alternator body is filled with hydraulic fluid, with a reservoir in the rear end casing, to prevent corrosion and equalize pressure changes caused by depth and ambient temperature.

Effective January 2008 comes standard with the Shrouded Propeller, to prevent seal damage from fishing line or debris. A low rpm propeller is also available for high water speed locations (flow of 8 knots - 4 meters per second - or greater), and an anti-clockwise propeller (the low-RPM and anti-clockwise options are typically special order only). Also available: a stainless steel propeller guard cage and mounting "

8 knots is about what? 9.2 mph....thats the min. its a unit that is used for fast moving water,,,,its an axial flow device,,,,,,high velocity...has to be high velocity because of the units small blade size....if the blades were 6 or 8 feet across,,,then useful amounts of power could be made. 

old fashion wind powered water pumps were slow speed low water pumping units. used to raise water to fill tanks for cattle or homes that did not have electric power. they pumped a couple of hundred of gallons of water a day at most. they were never used to make electrical power. the blades stalled out and lost efficiency in wind speeds much above 20 mph.. thats why all modern electrical wind plants use long slim blades, high stall speed. they would make just as much power with two blades, but because of gyroscopic forces, three are used to reduce the forces that would tend to overload the shafts as the unit pivoted in changing winds... for the most part wind plants have to have blades of about 8 feet min. with average speeds of 12 mph or more to generate any useful amount of power...i know i have a three bladed unit 6 feet in diameter in my back yard that i built when i was 17. great advances have been made in design of low speed generators (thus no gearing that loses about 30% of input wind power" but there is no way of getting around the LAWs of thermodynamics....those pesky laws...that were taught in middle school science classes. 


listen, i'm not making this stuff up...and no body here wants to make alternate energy more than i do. since i was 9 or ten years of age, i've been involved with the idea (my neighbor and hero built two overshot waterwheels that pumped water up a small hill to his house and later to his swimming pool) but lets try to keep basic science in mind. 

LisainN.idaho , does your formula include efficiency losses? i'm thinking it does. its within a magnitude of the theory conversions that i use in the classroom.

anyway i guess my mechanical engineering degree and experience puts me at a disadvantage. but i would be tempted to fail a college student sitting in my classroom if they described me as moronic,,,,although i'm sure some might........probably do.....are you one of my students????probably not...

show me, i really want to see a low flow/low fall system that works. to make useful amounts of electrical power.. i do...really....i want one myself....

please don't get mad with me....i did not make the laws of thermodynamics, i just live in a world that is governed by them,,,we all do.


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

Well, if "backup power" is a concern, perhaps something like a diesel generator would meet your needs - and may even fit well in whatever "alternative" power systems you have in mind for the future.

IMO, off-grid power and even generating your own electricity with "alternative" methods is basically reserved for those who either have a very minimalistic lifestyle, those who simply cannot get grid power or those who are interested in this area as a hobby. Alternative energy is also somewhat limited to the conditions required to generate that energy - we don't all have waterfalls in our backyards or constant high winds. 

I often hear of those folks who complain about the cost of grid electricity or folks who want to be "independent" of grid electricity and be "self-sufficient". Well, generating your own electricity is extremely expensive, and realistically, you may be just trading one dependance for another - since those off grid are extremely limited with what they can do with electricity. Many of us here have very high demand electric devices - devices like table saws, air compressors, welders and even washing machines. Those machines may make you just as independent as providing your own electricity, just in a different area. Many folks who are off-grid make use of fuels such as propane and diesel - so where is the "self-sufficiency"?

Ironic that you mention "control outages" - makes you wonder how many folks generate their own electricity just to have control over it?

Many of us start out on a quest to generate electricity - but quickly realize that it is far more practical to concentrate on other areas - such as energy conservation, solar heat and even making more informed choices. 





BlueberryChick said:


> ...OntarioMan, I've been thinking about your points. I _should_ be able to articulate why I care. The answer is I care about dependence on the power company because I can't control outages. We are in the middle of nowhere and if power goes out, it could be quite a while until they get to us. You also made me think of other areas of our lives where we try to "reduce dependence". We grow and preserve some of our food. We started keeping chickens this spring to provide eggs. Are we still dependent on the grocery stores? Yes, but a little less than we were a year ago. We have a wood stove for heat in the winter, and have plenty of wood on our property to burn. I use a clothesline to dry clothes. You are right that reducing usage is the best place to start, but we are still looking for alternatives.
> 
> The road to complete self-sufficiency is long and challenging for us and my family will probably not see the end of it, but I'd rather be on that road than sitting still.
> 
> Blue


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Can we all try to keep this thread positive and stop the name calling please?


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

If a diesel generator were insulated, say in a small building in which it's waste heat keeps it warm, one might be able to use 100% waste vegetable oil.

(WVO isn't free even if you pick it up yourself. You have the cost of fuel for the pick up and then some processing costs, such as filters.)

Problem I see with one is output vs demand and trying to match the two. Might work out OK if you have a buy-back agreement with the local power company. You use their power during low demand periods and your generator during high demand periods, selling them any excess.

I have a friend in IN who is into WVO in a fairly big way. He picks it up once a week from two Legion Halls and one restaurant. Allows for settling through several pour-offs of the usable oil. When there is virtually no sediment he pours it into one of those 275 gallon white plastic containers with the metal framework. That is heated from his outdoor wood furnace. As needed the tank then gravity flows through two in-line filters. I believe one is 5 mc and one 20 mc. For filters he waits until an auto parts house has them on sale and then about buys them out. Says his labor is maybe a couple of hours a week.

He uses the WVO to fuel a couple of early 80s WV. During the summer he might run 1/9 diesel/WVO. During winter he might run 9/l diesel. He figures he averages about 1/1 for a year.

He did note his mileage increases about 1 mpg with each bump up in diesel. That is, at 1/9 he can get about 40 mpg. At 9/1 he can get about 48 mpg. Straight diesel, say while on the road, about 50 mpg.

He also uses it in his diesel farm equipment. He bought a bulldozer to clean up a field. Since he was running through a couple of tanks a day, for the first refill, he used 100% WVO. When he was maybe a half-hour from stopping he added diesel to the tank so it would start the next morning.


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## OntarioMan (Feb 11, 2007)

Some thoughts :

- you don't have to "collect" WVO - in many major cities, you can buy it already filtered, at less than 1/2 the price of diesel

- I've seen agreements to purchase electricity (i.e. grid tie) which allow solar, hydro and wind - but I've never seen one which would allow you to backfeed from a fuel powered generator - as many of the "programs" were designed (and offer incentives for) "green" energy production

- If I were seriously considering living off-grid, a diesel generator would be my first priority - and one that could run WVO

- even with cheap WVO and a diesel genset, its still going to cost more to produce electricity than to purchase it from the grid - but no-doubt, a far cheaper initial investment, far more capable and far more convenient than other alternatives (like wind and solar generated electricity). 



Ken Scharabok said:


> If a diesel generator were insulated, say in a small building in which it's waste heat keeps it warm, one might be able to use 100% waste vegetable oil.
> 
> (WVO isn't free even if you pick it up yourself. You have the cost of fuel for the pick up and then some processing costs, such as filters.)
> 
> ...


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## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

Ace the point of getting power is to do some work right? The fishwheel may not make any electricity but it does preform usefull work and thats the key.
besides the statment wasnt about electricity ,what you said was;

"i'm sure that useful amounts of power could be made with flows as low as zero mph. and drops of zero fall. show me" 
Im sure that was ment to be sarcastic , and even though it was your statement to prove I took the liberty of proving it for you.

Your statment about the flow of millions of gallons is right . power potential is a balance you can get power from a little water and a lot of head like in a impluse wheel, medium amounts of water and head like in a overshot water wheel or the one that so many here have trouble with, a LOT of FLOW and a little head . 
I think you misunder stand what the website you quoted is saying about the optional propeller. Its for places where the water speed is too great for the unit Ie over 8 knots the unit does fine in places that are slower. 
I realize this is a small capacity unit but it does make the point. a bigger unit will f course have the potential for more power and as a upside often low head high flow areas are big enough for big turbines.

Your Following statement worries me,

"anyway i guess my mechanical engineering degree and experience puts me at a disadvantage. but i would be tempted to fail a college student sitting in my classroom if they described me as moronic,,,,although i'm sure some might........probably do.....are you one of my students????probably not..."

You seem to realize the disadvatage you are at in free thinking but yet you would unfairly punish a student for recognizing that even if his work was up to par, thats scary and makes me wonder how many excellent minds we lose to the education process just cause they wont brown nose you.


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