# Which rat poison?



## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

OK, here is the issue. I have had a bad season with rats in the chicken coop. They have eaten an entire litter of 10 day old bunnies in thier nest box, killed 2 young cockerels, attacked a crippled duck- who was then placed in a small mesh cage to recuperate- and about the time he was healing, they chewed his feet off through the wire! They recently ate- and I do mean ate a bantam cochin...all that remained was spine, leg bones and some feathers.
I have tried putting out a mix of plaster of paris and peanut butter inside empty cages that the chickens can't reach- the rats eat the entire batch in one night- I am not seeing any dead rats and seems they are still eating it up just as fast and if I fail to put it out for a couple days- I find a bird dead. I found a hole outside one of the coops (the one the duck was attacked in and the baby rabbits eaten), cannot find any holes outside the other coop which was where the cockerels and the bantam cochin were (who BTW were closed in since it is winter). I need something to take out the rats...water buckets are not going to work- it is winter- they freeze. I have trapped a few in live traps but now they are not falling for them. So my options are narrowing to poison. I was going to go with the vit D 3 bait as I was told it was safe for poultry and dogs would not be able to get second hand poisoning, but I read about there being no anidote...so would it be enough to harm a collie? Another site reccomends anti-coagulant type baits as vit K1 shots are the antidote and all vets have it on hand. Well that is wonderful IF I know a dog has eaten a dead rat. I don't want to harm my poultry or my dogs- I just want rid of these rats! Sarah- your take on it? Others?


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## GoldenMom (Jan 2, 2005)

To be honest, I really don't know anything about how rat poisons will affect chickens/birds, except that the anticoagulant ones can affect them. Thank goodness, I've not had to deal with rodent issues in the barn and hopefully Chester and Ripley (OK, I'm counting on Ripley) will keep it from becoming an issue. Do you have a barn cat(s)? Mine don't bother adult poultry or adult rabbits. I do have make sure they can't get into chicks or near the baby rabbits. But of course they were babies and grew up with the birds/rabbits. If you got a kitten, the rats would probably make off with it before it got big enough to kill them!

As for the dogs, the cholecalciferol (Vit D3) baits can definitely cause problems. Here's the toxic information: 0.5-3mg/kg can cause toxicity (about a tablespoon in a 40# dog), the lethal dose is 4.5-12mg/kg. Secondary poisoning is not recognized (ie the dog eating a dead rat). You are right, there is no specific antidote-typically you try to vomit them (if ingestion was recent), maybe some charcoal, then just supportive treatment.

I have used the anti-coag mouse poisons in my basement (there is no access for the animals into my basement-you have to go outside to get down there). I didn't worry too much about that. My DH did put some in the garage a few years back. I made him remove those after I caught Ruby eating them twice (I puked her immediately and she was obviously fine since I'm still complaining about her).


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## RandB (Aug 13, 2002)

We have had periodic rat problems here. We have found over the years that poison is the most effective way to go. Most cats will not take on a full-grown rat, although they will hunt the little ones, and mice and moles. The most effective animal to control rats I have seen, is my neighbor's Jack Russell terrier, who used to take great sport in killing rats. So I would suggest you either need a rat terrier, or do the poison thing.
We use the solid rat bait, or bait nuggets, placed inside one of those rat bait stations. It is the safest way to do it, the rats can run in and out to get the bait, but chickens and dogs and cats can't get to the bait. We also place the bait stations in out-of-the-way places where other animals aren't likely to go, anyway. We get the rat bait and stations at the local feed store. It has been very effective, there is something in the taste of the bait that attracts them, and they don't mind going into the station because it doesn't trap them. Be prepared for a LOT of dead rats to deal with, a week or 10 days after you put the bait out. We have never had an incident of any of our animals getting poisoned, or sick from the poisoned rats. 
It isn't pleasant, I don't really like poisoning any animal, but rats are so destructive, they have killed some of our chickens before and get into our feed and dig holes everywhere. This has been the best course of action we have found. Good luck with solving your problem.


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

I used the One Bite blocks in my attic, worked great. I don't use poisons anywhere else because of my children and other animals. When I lived with my folks, I would put a 4ft long piece of pvc pipe (2-3 inch) in the chicken pens with the poison right in the middle. never had a problem with the chickens and had dead rats all over the place. If you use the blocks that have a hole in them, you can drill a hole or multiple holes in the pipe and put nails through to hold the bait in place.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

I can deal with mice, but not rats, your problem would have me scared to go into the darn coop.
They might have holes you cannot see. I am dealing with mice right now and when I moved the chickens feed pan a hole was right under it :flame: I put out traps, in the chick room and closed it off to the chickens. The little turds tripped one trap, nothing caught and the other was untouched. 
Aside from hidden holes rats are also good at climbing. They might be going up and in. They usually follow the same path, so if you can find it you can try to put traps along it. 
I forget what channel it was on but there was a rat infestation at a horse stable and these things were running along the pipes and were able to get in alot of places. I think they looked for pee and poop along the areas to find where they were traveling. They even attached traps to the pipes using zip ties. They also put out posion, I forgot what kind they used but it looked like water in tiny dishes, which they claimed was not enough to harm a dog or cat.
I am sorry you lost all those baby rabbits, and you poor duck getting his feet chewed would just make me angry.


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

OK I am going to post an ad looking for a local rat terrier looking for a job to do. I will give a few days for a response. If nothing, then I will get bait stations and use the anti-cogulant bait. Venus will not be happy about not being able to exercise out of the pen for several weeks, but I can't risk her snapping up anything (dead) she finds and chowing it down quickly once the poison goes out. Thanks for your help.


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## JoanneB (Feb 23, 2010)

I agree with Rand, a terrier is a natural remedy for dealing with mice, rats or other unwanted vermin. I would suggest acquiring a young puppy so that you can aclimate him/her to the other animals otherwise rabbits and chickens may also be killed. If your chickens and rabbits are securely penned you would be able to teach a puppy that they are not to be chased/barked at/killed etc. I have jack russels and who occasionally catch mice in the house but we sure don't have many!! A russell with prey drive should be able to catch and kill an adult rat by the time they are just a few months old. 

Good luck
Joanne


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## simplepeace (Oct 29, 2005)

Good plan!
Willowynd, I would also post to the Great outdoors section here on HT - lots of people with working dogs. 
Also, I would call your vet and ask for anyone with Rat terriers, Jack Russells, Borders, feists that hunt small game (even non-working but seriously game doxies). Or google breed clubs in your area, you might have better luck finding serious workers that way than posting an ad. 

Also, I would keep at least 2 barn cats after you get rid of the rats you have now.
My cats go out to the chicken coop first thing in the morning, when I have the coop open which is any time it isn't dead of winter here  Oh, they go to the coop for rodents, lol not the chickens - they fully ignore the poultry. 

I had a kitten years ago that at the age of 8 weeks killed 4 mice overnight the first night we had him, and regularly brought home huge crows to show us before he ate them. All of our neighbors would borrow him during harvest season to keep their houses rodent free.

Can't live without them now. I got sick of mice in my house and couldn't do anymore d-con - couldnt stand to have stinky, rotting corpses in my basement anymore. Now the cats sleep in the basement in winter, so no more mice. I even found 1/2 a garter snake down there in November, it must have come through the cellar doors? No clue how, but they found him....
Anyway, it will be interesting to hear what you come up with as far as ratters go.

Good luck!


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## belladulcinea (Jun 21, 2006)

If we were closer I would lend you Bob and Bella, they will take on any rat, they killed a 2 lb. Norwegian wood rat last fall, the thing was ginormous, then they took care of the babies with a little help from the chickens. Bob hunts them, runs them out and Bella kills them.


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

I do not want another dog to keep. I am already close to my personal limit and trying to place at least one more (already placed one this year) before I have a ***** bred this year. I would much rather "borrow" one for a few late afternoons/early evenings to do its work, then have it go home.



JoanneB said:


> I agree with Rand, a terrier is a natural remedy for dealing with mice, rats or other unwanted vermin. I would suggest acquiring a young puppy so that you can aclimate him/her to the other animals otherwise rabbits and chickens may also be killed. If your chickens and rabbits are securely penned you would be able to teach a puppy that they are not to be chased/barked at/killed etc. I have jack russels and who occasionally catch mice in the house but we sure don't have many!! A russell with prey drive should be able to catch and kill an adult rat by the time they are just a few months old.
> 
> Good luck
> Joanne


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

simplepeace said:


> Good plan!
> Willowynd, I would also post to the Great outdoors section here on HT - lots of people with working dogs.
> Also, I would call your vet and ask for anyone with Rat terriers, Jack Russells, Borders, feists that hunt small game (even non-working but seriously game doxies). Or google breed clubs in your area, you might have better luck finding serious workers that way than posting an ad.
> 
> ...


I don't have a barn- I have 2 coops....plus everytime I have tried outdoor cats they find the highway....so would rather not go with outdoor cats. I have a 9 yo house cat and she has gotten one mouse in the last 2-3 yrs she has been here. I have not seen signs of mice in the house this winter though either (normally I get them every winter) and none in the sticky traps...so maybe she is keeping them at bay now.
I will try the other places you mentioned...thanks for the tips.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Rats can get into holes the size of quarters. My domestic rats were able to do that. As for mice, they can get into holes the size of dimes. Get rid of the birds for a while. They're messy eaters and rats/mice love bird feed. I am not sure if they're fond of rabbit feed so can't help ya there.


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## FoxyWench (Jan 22, 2010)

terrier and/or barn cats.

by the time you realize your dog has eaten a poisend rat unless you catch them in the act its already too late, and all poisens can be passed from rat to dog/cat, the ones that are supposedly "harmeless" simply arnt as strong and will stille effect (and can kill a dog whos sensitive to it...)


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

I don't want to get rid of my birds. Just got them back a year ago and had difficulty finding some of the breeds and raising up the first turkeys. There has to be a way to keep things in balance. I can live with mice, they just eat some feed. If it was just a few rats that were doing damage to objects or eating feed or a few eggs, I could deal with that...but killing off my animals is something I can't. I doubt they care for rabbit feed, my rabbit feed container is open with a bag over it since I lost the lid last year and is never touched, no droppings, etc. But they do like the baby bunnies.



TedH71 said:


> Rats can get into holes the size of quarters. My domestic rats were able to do that. As for mice, they can get into holes the size of dimes. Get rid of the birds for a while. They're messy eaters and rats/mice love bird feed. I am not sure if they're fond of rabbit feed so can't help ya there.


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## RandB (Aug 13, 2002)

Just to clarify, it is my experience that most cats will not attack and kill full grown rats. They are great for mice and moles, though. Of course there are probably exceptions, but I have had and known a lot of farm cats over the years. A cat seems to have a built-in sense of size limits for their prey. That is why they are safe around grown chickens, they just don't even try to go after a large bird, only very small ones. Ditto with rodents. But when the neighbor's terrier would come through the fence to visit, she would find and kill a rat every time she came. If you can find one or two good "ratter" terriers to visit for awhile, you might not have to do the poison thing. I think I would let the dogs have at it for a couple of weeks, then after they are done, maybe do a round of poison to get anything they missed. I hope you can find someone who will lend you a good terrier to help out.


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## deb (Jul 27, 2002)

Willowynd Do you have an Amish community near you? Most Amish farms in our area have rat terriers to manage the rat population, but they are regular farm dogs so they are used to chickens and don't go after them. You can probably find an Amish Rat terrier to "rent" by putting up a sign at the local feed store or Amish grocery store.

deb in Wi


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

If you are going to poison, what about using the Quintox bait from Peaceful Valley Farm Supply? Vit. D3 is the active, if dogs and cats can't get the bait directly, dead rats should not cause secondary poisoning. Just calcifies their blood. My 2 cents worth...


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

That is what I was looking into articow but there is no antidote and that makes me nervous. Deb, I never thought of the Amish. I use an Amish processor so will try calling him. My ads have resulted in nothing.


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## Shoupie (Mar 21, 2009)

You could try hanging your cages or perhaps girding the cages legs with sticky traps. Anti freeze might also tempt them.


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

My cages are directly attached to the walls....hole through the walls and second cage on outside. No more direct losses since that last one...but that hens mate was found dead in the coop a few days later with not a mark on him. Is it possible for birds to pine away that much for a mate?


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

This is why we have a lgd in with our poultry. We've had him kill weasels, rats, and even a raccoon that somehow got into the coop. He's earned his keep for life, and he wouldn't harm a chicken if his life depended on it, because he was raised with them. I guess he thinks they are his sheep/goats! But then, we have a chicken barn and outside run, so he has a lot of room to move around, and we let him out in the pasture during the daytime hours.


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

That may be suitable for you, but having a LGD would be too much for me for several reasons...first of all my property is not completely fenced off. Second, I have issues with lots of barking (which is why I train my collies what "enough" means asap). Third, I doubt I could afford to feed a dog that large


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

My friend has GPs and they eat 1-2 cups a day! His dogs don't eat that much but they do need fencing and will bark.


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