# Senario: Abandoned Kids



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

You have prepped enough for your own family, and maybe a little extra. You are struggling to feed your own children, knowing your stores are only gonna last so long, and winter is coming. 

You find a child (or two or three) knocking at your door. Their parents left a note saying they know you could give those kids a better life...

The poor things are emaciated. Ribs are showing, feet are bare, or with shoes falling apart. Parents are long gone. They say that mommy said you could feed them, that this is their new family. 


See, I could imagine doing this. Watching you kids starve has to be one of the worst things imaginable. What would you do in this situation? Wouldyou take them in? Would you turn them away?

Knowing myself, I would take them in...hopefully find new homes close by for all but one or two, depending on how many there are. They would get a crash course in working, but realistically, you'd have to watch them, as mom and dad have taught them to steal and scrounge, and hunger has taught them to hoard what they find. 

Where would you stand?


----------



## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

As long as there was not a steady stream of them, I would take them in. I can't imagine ending up with 30 kids to feed or anything..
But I would take them in.. many hands (even small ones) make light work. Clean up, gardening etc.. could be aided by children. There would be a learning curve and issues etc.. and even in children, thieves, slackers etc.. would be dealt with. A few evenings of watching the others eat would take care of most issues quickly.
It would be added stress, but added joy as well.
But lordy - I hope it doesn't come to that.. truly I do.


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

My view will not be popular....fair warning!

No....1) potential disease 2) traumatized kids have mental health issues (as a foster parent and adoptive parent I would say that 80% of this group have sociopathic tendancies) hungry kids will steal and hoard food 3) most will not have the work ethic necessary...I do believe that by age 10 your opportunity to influence/ingrain is over--so a losing battle I would not want to add to my LOAD.


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

oh, I forgot. What about an infant? You may or may not be nursing (even non nursing women and men can and do produce milk) you may or may not have formula...or enough water to make the formula...But in the case of a lone infant...would you leave it on your doorstep, take it in, or abandon it to die?

If I had formula or was nursing an infant or toddler, I would take it in, no question. If I had goats or another milk animal, I would take it in...but if I didn't and wasn't? probably depend on it's age. Old enough to take solids? probably take it. 

Too young for that and no way to feed it? Sad to say, but chances are I would kill the poor thing, make it's death quick, and bury it, if I couldn't find someone willing and able to care for it. Also, that is reliant on me having, at least, my husband around, as another young baby would tax my ability to care for my own, esp if I was alone.


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

An infant would be more difficult....I might consider doing a full inspection eye contact, tracking, grasp....similar to APGAR ? that they do on newborns...eye contact is a mental health tester...grasp and tracking...physical and cognitive..


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

and mpillow, I totally get where you are coming from with older kids. I was a foster kid, and while I have grown and changed a lot, while I was in foster care I stole (food, not stuff) hoarded the food, snuck the food. thats with PLENTY of food and a wonderful fostermom telling me to eat whatever I wanted. I think that there would be lots of mental health issues...from people seeing what we are not used to, at this point in time. Perhaps even parents telling older children to take what they can and come back to us with the food. Thinking of that...I'd be leery. Kids can be good liars. And then with the raping and pillaging that normally follows a major disaster, you would have to worry about your kids beign abused if you had your own. I still think I would try to take them in, but then, where do you draw the line? huh. 

Another problem (one you certainly know plenty about) is attatchment disorder. Those kids have no feelings, it seems, and will do anything to you, because in the process of losing so much and being abused/neglected, they have lost their humanness. Those are scary kids, even at six or seven (I had a foster brother with attatchment disorders...)


----------



## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

We can and certainly should prep for what might happen in this world, but ultimately we have to prep for what might happen in the next. This is what comes to mind when I consider situations such as these:



> When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
> 
> And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
> 
> ...


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

attachment disorder is the root of the problem no doubt. But "normal" folk are good hearted and believe love conquers all....love is good but these kids can't process it.


----------



## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

It would be hard to make a firm decision, not knowing all the circumstances ahead of time, but I'd be inclined to do what I could for children.


----------



## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

My opinion will probably be met with scorn. 

I would not take them in under any circumstances that lead to my family becoming lean. I would also be gentle as possible and not leave them to wander in fear to eventually starve. This is the same for my own children, I would never allow them to suffer slowly and agonizingly should there be zero other options. Draw whatever conclusions you wish. 

As much as it would tear my heart out to see scared hungry kids I would not take them in. As I would gaze down upon them I would know that taking them in could result in my own children, my flesh and blood, being the next batch of scared and hungry kids because I took food out of their mouths to save others.

It's easy to act as if one has altruistic ideals but lets face it, if comes down to accepting stangers at the expense of your children you don't have a survival mindset. You may have a prep for emergencies mindset but survival is about base animal needs and scratching at existence against what may be overwhelming odds against you. Being kind has no place in survival unless there is something in it for you such as a community set up.

Sometimes this land of hypothetical is a little too insulated and the answer from a warm well fed person is not at all like that of a post TEOTWAWKI survivor. If someone has a morality or ethics that are worth risking life for they may not live to keep those values. Surviving in miserable times isn't about earning boyscout badges.

It should be noted that I am very resourceful when it comes to stretching a meal. Harsh actions would only come if absolutely required.


----------



## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

hintonlady said:


> My opinion will probably be met with scorn.
> 
> I would not take them in under any circumstances that lead to my family becoming lean. I would also be gentle as possible and not leave them to wander in fear to eventually starve. This is the same for my own children, I would never allow them to suffer slowly and agonizingly should there be zero other options. Draw whatever conclusions you wish.
> 
> ...


I figure if God tells me to do things a certain way, He already has a plan figured out. In an EOTWAWKI situation, I'm going to have to rely on Him more than ever, so doing as He says is the best plan I can have.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

During the government-induced famine in the Ukraine, women in the countryside would just toss babies inside open boxcars, hoping against hope that when the trains got to the cities that there babies would still be alive and someone would take care of them.

Watch the video "Harvest of Despair" to see how it went down in Russia. I suspect our own approaching famine will be somewhat similar.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXkgGdZC6uQ[/ame]


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

deaconjim said:


> I figure if God tells me to do things a certain way, He already has a plan figured out. In an EOTWAWKI situation, I'm going to have to rely on Him more than ever, so doing as He says is the best plan I can have.


I keep trying to think this way as well. After all, no sparrow falls without His notice. I have to imagine that if a starving child makes it to my doorstep then he was probably guided there by God for me to take care of.


----------



## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

Ernie said:


> I keep trying to think this way as well. After all, no sparrow falls without His notice. I have to imagine that if a starving child makes it to my doorstep then he was probably guided there by God for me to take care of.


That starving child might well have been sent there to take care of you.


----------



## beaglebiz (Aug 5, 2008)

deaconjim said:


> I figure if God tells me to do things a certain way, He already has a plan figured out. In an EOTWAWKI situation, I'm going to have to rely on Him more than ever, so doing as He says is the best plan I can have.


POTD :thumb:


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

deaconjim said:


> That starving child might well have been sent there to take care of you.


True enough. We just don't have the long view that God has.


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

POTD? What's THAT stand for?


----------



## Narshalla (Sep 11, 2008)

Shrarvrs88 said:


> oh, I forgot. What about an infant? You may or may not be nursing (even non nursing women and men can and do produce milk) you may or may not have formula...or enough water to make the formula...But in the case of a lone infant...would you leave it on your doorstep, take it in, or abandon it to die?
> 
> If I had formula or was nursing an infant or toddler, I would take it in, no question. If I had goats or another milk animal, I would take it in...but if I didn't and wasn't? probably depend on it's age. Old enough to take solids? probably take it.
> 
> Too young for that and no way to feed it? Sad to say, but chances are I would kill the poor thing, make it's death quick, and bury it, if I couldn't find someone willing and able to care for it. Also, that is reliant on me having, at least, my husband around, as another young baby would tax my ability to care for my own, esp if I was alone.


Sorry, the only time a human male produces anything from his breasts is when he has an infection or he has cancer. The body of the male does not know how to produce the correct hormones in the correct proportions to achieve lactation.

There is two other times that a male might lactate -- first, if he receives a continuous series of injections of the correct hormones to produce lactation, but they would have to be administered several times a day. Second is if he is a chimera -- has the DNA of both a male and a female in his body, which fused together while still a few cells big. This is theoretically possible, but entirely unlikely.

As for me, no, I wouldn't take them in without their parents. If their parents were there, and willing (and able) to work, I would take the children in, too. If the parents left, they would have to take the children with them.

If the parents stayed a few days, then slipped out during the night, leaving the kids, yes, I would load the kids up in a wagon, take them to the nearest town, and drop them off. Yes, that is harsh and cruel, but the fact is, if there is barely enough to feed the ones we already have, then there won't be enough to feed them, too, and we can _all_ starve, together, or some of us make it through.

As for an infant, I might take it in, but only because I want another child and have been having troubles in that area. But that's only because it's what I decided I want, ahead of time.

No matter how hard you try, you can't support everyone with the work of a few, and at that point, the ones that were unlucky enough to have been born into the wrong family are probably going to end up dead.

For that matter, the ones that _do_ prepare might end up without, as well, because their stuff got taken by those that "needed it more." Those are the ones who will be willing to work, and might survive, if they are lucky.

ETA: Yes, I would take them in if I was called to by God. However, called to by God and guilt tripped by man are two entirely different things, and I know the difference.


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

It is so hard to imagine where we could be...rethinking my earlier post on infants. I could nurse it, even if I wasn't nursing at the time. I have never had aproblem with supply, and could probably feed two or three, if I had to....(this is something I think about, if my kids and I were without food, and I had a young toddler/baby, I could nurse my others...one woman kept her seven month old and four year old alive that way) 

And thinking about it, it is really a moot point for me, my hubby has the biggest, sweetest heart and would not turn away any kid. I guess It's time for us to plan on a few extra, just in case, eh?


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

There have been men, fathers even, who have nursed their own infants when the mother died...I saw an article about it, let me see if I can find it. 

Of course, it WOULD not be an ideal situation, and it's probably true that not all men can do it (and few would try). Even women who have been pregnant and nursed before have a hard time building up a milk supply for an adopted baby...but it IS possible....here, I will go find an article about it to link...

I stand corrected! Thank you for getting me to research further, and it did not take long....aparently while men CAN produce milk, there has never been an instance where a man has produced near enough milk to feed an infant. 

And that is what I get for trusting totlally in LLL.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Not trying to provoke an argument here or religious debate, but are those of you stating that you'd let other people's children starve before helping them identifying yourselves as Christians?

I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind these decisions.

My oldest son and I were sitting in the barn just last night as we fed a pair of orphan lambs. 

Son: "It makes me mad how that one ewe butts that orphan baby away every time she tries to nurse. Both her baby and the other one could nurse at the same time."

Me: "She's just being a good mother and protecting her own milk supply. How would you feel if your mother let strange kids come into the house and eat up all your food?"

Son: "Yeah, but these sheep are all part of the same flock. Don't they realize they should take care of each other?"

Me: "Maybe she doesn't realize she's part of a flock. Maybe she just thinks it's her and her lamb versus the world."

I sat out there on a stump by the barn, watching the stars twinkle for a long time after that conversation, digesting the epiphany. We really are sheep. We could all together turn and face the wolf and drive it away, but instead we let one of the others get eaten and are thankful that it wasn't us. Maybe we're a flock too, but we just don't realize it.

Once again, I realize that God gave us agriculture to train the faithful. Sheep are provided to us not for meat and wool, but rather for our instruction.


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

My guess is some of you have never had first hand experience with cute charming manipulative fire setters or sibling stranglers.
My kid is MEAN to animals given the chance(she was an infant when we got her)...my friends kid is in lock up nearly at age 12 tried to strangle sibling and teacher...another boy age 16 raped his 6yo sister....another foster of ours set house on fire with his next "family" 

Do you really want this in your house???


----------



## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

Ernie said:


> Not trying to provoke an argument here or religious debate, but are those of you stating that you'd let other people's children starve before helping them identifying yourselves as Christians?
> 
> I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind these decisions.
> 
> ...


THIS is a POTD (Post Of The Day).


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

Ernie said:


> Not trying to provoke an argument here or religious debate, but are those of you stating that you'd let other people's children starve before helping them identifying yourselves as Christians?
> 
> I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind these decisions.
> 
> ...


wow, ernie. Thank you for sharing that story. What a revaltion, and something to stew over.


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

_Not trying to provoke an argument here or religious debate, but are those of you stating that you'd let other people's children starve before helping them identifying yourselves as Christians?_

'Tis my understanding that it is God's right to judge me not man.


----------



## godsgirl (Apr 1, 2007)

I can not imagine not feeding them. THAT IS NOT AN OPTION ! If the Lord places a child in need in my life and I refuse to take care of that child I would never beable to live with myself.


----------



## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

There are so many things to consider. I doubt if any of us would truly know what we would do unless it happened to us.

1. Depending on ages of kids, they might have been trained to open the door and let their parents/owners in at an opportune time. It could be a ruse to eliminate you and take everything you have.

2. Disease. Do you want to risk the lives of your children to a disease that might kill your children? In a world of starvation their will probably be a lack of hygiene that promotes deadly diseases we don't have today.

3. Starvation. Will feeding them be the tipping point for your children between surviving or starving before spring harvest? Can you live with the knowledge that you might be creating a situation where your children will die a slow painful death so you can extend the lives of some unknown children who will die the same way?

4. Where do you draw the line? How many children on the doorstep will you take in until you take no more? If word gets out that you took in some kids, will lots more suddenly start showing up? How will you reject the ones you can't take in? Everyone, no matter how well prepped you are, will have to draw the line somewhere or you may end up trying to support hundreds of kids. For every child you take in, it cuts YOUR childs ration in 1/2. 

5. What about clothing for the newcomers? You'll be facing extra laundry, possibly diapers, food & eating utensils, sleeping arrangements, and other considerations.

These are just things that come to mind immediately. In a total breakdown of society, you never know what you may have to face.


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

Spinner said:


> There are so many things to consider. I doubt if any of us would truly know what we would do unless it happened to us.
> 
> 1. Depending on ages of kids, they might have been trained to open the door and let their parents/owners in at an opportune time. It could be a ruse to eliminate you and take everything you have.
> 
> ...


What an aawesome way to put it. It's true. We likely DO NOT know how we would react, what we would do. There would be many dangers with bringing in other kids....but then...facing them hungry. 

Wow. didn't know what a pot this would stir.....


----------



## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Ernie said:


> Not trying to provoke an argument here or religious debate, but are those of you stating that you'd let other people's children starve before helping them identifying yourselves as Christians?
> 
> I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind these decisions.
> 
> ...


 very well said!!!

I would just like to say also that kids are not stupid. If you turn away another human being, especially repeatedly, so that your own children can have food--that WILL teach them something, probably something you'd rather not have them learn. There is far more to this life than having a full belly and a warm bed.

What I bolded is an attitude that really gets my goat with Christians. They call it "counting MY blessings" and "thanking God for MY deliverance". Jesus was all about kindness, generosity, and compassion, and he was very clear about people who lack those actions(um, "goats").

SO if I thin the soup to feed a few more kids, that is *not* a survival mindset? I beg to differ--what will preserve the human race and drive away the wolves is hanging onto any shred of compassion. Otherwise we are worse than animals and will get what we reap. In raising a child you feed not only his body but his heart and mind too. 

I have a friend who lives in a rough neighborhood. He collects cheap/free bikes on craigslist, fixes them up and gives them to the kids of the neighborhood. He learns their NAMES and is merely nice and friendly to the fatherless. Guess what, his house and cars alone have never been broken into. Wonder why that is...(no he doesn't do this so he doesnt' get broken into neither, he does it because Jesus said so)


----------



## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

(Ernie) you might like this article, it kinda goes along with I was trying to say
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-bad-news-of-self-righteousness


----------



## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

deaconjim said:


> I figure if God tells me to do things a certain way, He already has a plan figured out. In an EOTWAWKI situation, I'm going to have to rely on Him more than ever, so doing as He says is the best plan I can have.


Thank you for being so polite about a difference of opinion. Funny, I also payed much more attention to what you said because of it. 

I respect your fortitude and as much as I can understand what you are saying.


----------



## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

TO get this out of the Christian mudhole, another way of thinking about this is the thing of Karma, what goes around comes around (which I think Jesus was saying the same thing in the "Golden Rule"). And I believe it was the message of "The Road"--what is the light within you? Human goodness or unhuman nothingness?


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

wyld thang said:


> TO get this out of the Christian mudhole, another way of thinking about this is the thing of Karma, what goes around comes around (which I think Jesus was saying the same thing in the "Golden Rule"). And I believe it was the message of "The Road"--what is the light within you? Human goodness or unhuman nothingness?


Alright, now you're just bashing. "Christian mudhole"?

Cover me with mud then. I'm happy to wallow in it.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Let's get one thing perfectly clear here ...

I'm a jerk. I'm a big, rude, arrogant jerk who is self-centered, callous, and cruel. Not just some of the time, but almost ALL of the time. 

If I ever, ever, even remotely approach the likeable status, it's not the real Ernie you're seeing. It's the grace of Christ that I struggle day and night to find shining through.

Being a Christian is like clinging to a rope that leads you out of a pit full of soft pillows and free cheeseburgers. The easy thing to do is to just let go and stay in the pit. The only reason you ever grab on to the rope in the first place is because you know you'll die down in that pit if you don't. 

What you see and what you bash is not the failings of Christ or Christianity. It's the failings of real people. Real people who fall short of the goal, just like I do every single day. Like I did a half hour ago, and like I'm going to do again here in a few minutes.


----------



## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

oops!


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

OK, everybody.  

Can we simmer? 

I love the responses and learning how others think they would handle the situation. I think "christian mudhole" was only in reference to where it seems to be going...swamped in a debate of whether or not a christian would turn away kids. Just WHERE it was going...and not really a slam on christianity (I sure hope not). 

EVERYONE has given me a lot to think about...I know that. Ernie and Deacon Jim have given me cause to rethink my postition on EVER abandoning kids, while my own experience as a foster kid (and what I did, and saw other kids do) and mpillows perspective as a fosterparent has given me reality. What would I be facing, taking young children in? Old children? what would be my plan to ensure I get burnt as little as possible? I do think everyone here has contributed good things...a lot of things to think about at the very least...


----------



## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Ernie said:


> Alright, now you're just bashing. "Christian mudhole"?
> 
> Cover me with mud then. I'm happy to wallow in it.


I didn't mean mud as bashing, I like mud and play in it a lot. I was trying to be inclusive and considering the folks who read this thread who do not follow in particular the christian faith in thinking about how other traditions think about the effect of actions. I call it a mudhole because from the "outside", "they" sure see us wallowing in the pit arguing over jots and tittles and coming up with stuff like my children are more precious than other children--sure they are on the parent's eyes, but in God's eyes? they're all the same preciousity.

those cheeseburgers and feather are made of mud btw.I do heartily bash sanctimonious sepratist self righteous Christian boo hoo, cuz Jesus did it too. Sure I know it's the failings of real people. Who call themselves Christian and act like goats. It's all there in the bible how that plays out.


----------



## Fat Charlie (Sep 9, 2010)

Cyngbaeld said:


> It would be hard to make a firm decision, not knowing all the circumstances ahead of time, but I'd be inclined to do what I could for children.


When you're well fed and armed, being cruel to the hungry is bad for your soul. You've gotta do what you've gotta do, but you have to think about your soul too.


----------



## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

In answering the original question, there is no way, no how that I could turn away starving children from my door. If it meant my own family loses its fight sooner, then that is what will be. I am not afraid of death, but I would be afraid of what kind of person I had become if I could be so cold as to turn away desperate children.


----------



## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

wyld thang said:


> SO if I thin the soup to feed a few more kids, that is *not* a survival mindset? I beg to differ--what will preserve the human race and drive away the wolves is hanging onto any shred of compassion.
> 
> *Perhaps our difference of opinion is in religous ideaology. I see survival as only indirectly related to faith, I assume that in your case the two are one in the same. I'm not going to waste either of our time debating which opinion is right. I think at a minimum we are clear on why our opinions are different.*
> 
> ...


I am not without compassion. I have given great portions of my time and money to less fortunate. I don't do it to earn an eternal reward, I don't do it for recognition. I give because I selfishly enjoy the feeling that it gives me. I am sure plenty will be shocked or even disbelieve and that's their judgment and perception. I'm not too torn up over that.

Giving generously in good times is not at all like giving modestly in times of desperation.

To each their own I guess. Is it safe to assume you guys will feed my brood after a SHTF scenario?:cowboy: Thank you kindly if you have such noble intentions. Any one of you is welcome to stop by pre SHTF. I love to care well for guests. After SHTF the welcome mat will be rolled up. No offense intended.


----------



## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Sorry SHara, I didn't mean "mudhole" to equal Jesus/Christianity (the REAL deal as it is) is stupid. I have NEVER said that ever. I was just trying to keep this open to all faiths, since this board is made up of people of many different views--and our actions do indeed coem from what we "believe". Trying to be hospitable, since we're all in this together(whether we like it or not). One thing for sure, the end of things will sure make you think just what exactly are your values, and what you're willing to DIE and LIVE for. No running away on that one! Actions will have direct, more swiftly seen consequences. 

so, "the mudhole of christian bellybutton gazing"...is that better?


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Okay - as to the Christian bashing in posts, and then the responses - Don't!

There was no put down of other point of view, just a question to see if there was any correlation in previous responses.

I like all of the responders here as friends, but I absolutely will stop any religious bashing and put downs. 

Be our actions be due to our beliefs - they are our beliefs and reasons - that does not mean tearing that belief system down by others is going to be tolerated.

So, lighten up on that aspect - believe what you do, and have the reasons posted - but do not tear down others beliefs or reasons.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I hope that if anyone I know is considering abandoning their children that they bring them to my house.

When people hear that I have four children and we're expecting another one, the general responses are along the lines of "I don't know how you do it" or "aren't they a lot of trouble". 

This morning, the fourteen year old fed the lambs. The ten year old fed the chickens. The seven year old and the four year old brought in firewood for momma to light the stove. Then they all got together and fixed breakfast and now they are heavily involved in some sort of complex origami apocalypse on the living room floor. Every mouth comes with a PAIR of hands, and in my experience ... children LIKE to work. Maybe it's different around other households, but around here it's pretty cut and dry. We all work. (Except for Daddy, who had a rough night and so slept in late this morning. The kids were even quiet while I did so. Go, kids, go.)

I don't think for us on homesteads that the problem is going to be extra children. I think the problem is going to be that there aren't ENOUGH children.


----------



## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

hintonlady said:


> I don't do it to earn an eternal reward, I don't do it for recognition.


I help others _because_ I have an eternal reward, not so I can earn one.


----------



## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Ernie said:


> Let's get one thing perfectly clear here ...
> 
> I'm a jerk. I'm a big, rude, arrogant jerk who is self-centered, callous, and cruel. Not just some of the time, but almost ALL of the time.
> 
> ...


Ernie, your last statement was profound and touched me very deeply. I'm not sure about faith and all that stuff but what you said transcended dogmatic differences in a way that opened my eyes very wide.

Failings of real people...

That will be on my mind for a long time. Thank you for the philisophical cross road. I needed to hear that.


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

wyld thang said:


> Sorry SHara, I didn't mean "mudhole" to equal Jesus/Christianity (the REAL deal as it is) is stupid. I have NEVER said that ever. I was just trying to keep this open to all faiths, since this board is made up of people of many different views--and our actions do indeed coem from what we "believe". Trying to be hospitable, since we're all in this together(whether we like it or not). One thing for sure, the end of things will sure make you think just what exactly are your values, and what you're willing to DIE and LIVE for. No running away on that one! Actions will have direct, more swiftly seen consequences.
> 
> so, "the mudhole of christian bellybutton gazing"...is that better?


No, not better.
You are digging deeper.
I'm capable of making it okay for all beliefs.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Heck, why would I want to survive if NOT to do God's will? This world sucks. It's either too cold, too hot, filled with mosquitos, and it's hard to find good food. All the things I really enjoy are harmful to me. 

The only reason I'm here is because I'm sent. The only reason to survive is because I'm doing God's will. When that will is done, heck, take me home where the cheeseburgers are thick, the cavendish is cured to perfection, and the ale is dark and strong.

I understand other people have different motivations as to why they do things, but I can't fathom them. I'm doing all I can with what I've got.


----------



## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

deaconjim said:


> I help others _because_ I have an eternal reward, not so I can earn one.


You and Ernie keep hitting me with zingers.

I like your style.


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

I think that a long time ago I was of the same mindset when it came to helping children..all children...no matter what.

Well I have fostered and adopted and worked with fetal alcohol kids and profoundly handicapped kids....I've done my walking in the shoes so to speak...and made my judgement call based on actual experience...

I have to wonder any of you have had first hand experience ? 

I'm of the belief that God is the only power to judge me and that if I help my self than God will help me....I'd be eliminating the risk of some potentially dire circumstances by not taking the kids in....why else would God have given me the opportunity to work with kids like this and the understanding that came from doing it?


----------



## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

Ernie said:


> I hope that if anyone I know is considering abandoning their children that they bring them to my house.
> 
> When people hear that I have four children and we're expecting another one, the general responses are along the lines of "I don't know how you do it" or "aren't they a lot of trouble".
> 
> ...


This post alone makes me really want to meet you and your family one day. I like your thinking. A lot.


----------



## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Oh bother, I suspect we are approaching lockdown.

I was really enjoying the calm parts of the thread drift.

*sigh*

Ernie, Jim- You two would stand a chance at wearing my edge off given time. (Time and and a saints worth of patience, lol)


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

We are not near lockdown. Just a warning so it doesn't get that bad 

Now -:icecream::icecream::icecream::icecream: for everyone.


----------



## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Is that freeze dried astronaut ice cream from your very own preps...?

Goody goody goody.


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

I am afraid of thread lock, too.  

But, in case it DOES go that way, thank you all for sharing in theis discussion, and, like Hinton Lady, I have enjoyed the chill parts of this conversation.


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

Oh, Ok, Angie! cool!


----------



## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

OOh! I am glad I came across this thread. Ice-cream! I'll take vanilla with caramel sauce please Angie.


----------



## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

mpillow said:


> My view will not be popular....fair warning!
> 
> No....1) potential disease 2) traumatized kids have mental health issues (as a foster parent and adoptive parent I would say that 80% of this group have sociopathic tendancies) hungry kids will steal and hoard food 3) most will not have the work ethic necessary...I do believe that by age 10 your opportunity to influence/ingrain is over--so a losing battle I would not want to add to my LOAD.



Mpillow...all I can say is that I absoltely TOTALLY understand your postion...TOTALLY. She's not being sarcastic when she mentions "load".

I too have lived with/raised beautiful and talented and outwardly wonderful-but inwardly terribly damaged children that had major neglect issues: You'd hope food hoarding is the worst they'd deal with....!! I was thinking age 3 or so...mpillow. Family disruptions and disfunction and after much life experiences and counselling for my children/family...I can say without a doubt that Mpillow is correct about personality disorder problems ( from personality disorders----to attachment disorder---to bi-polar-----all the way up to Sociopath/psychopath. Certainly it is honorable to take care of the hurting/helpless...*BUT you need to be educated in how to help correctly*, and to be super aware of the convoluted thinking and manipulations that some children develop as coping skills to give them the sense of "security" they were robbed of elsewhere. You can save their lives (((IF))) they let you...You can feed them and Love them...it may or may
not be reciprical(sp?). Many of these folks deepest issues is that they really don't trust that anyone really wants to love them or that they are deserving of that love although they outwardly will suck you dry of emotion.

I'd feel that I need to help abandoned/ hungry...but I am a survivor of quite a few years of hell from pitiful, yet ~very deep level `deeply angry and scared people, and know what they are capable of. By that I mean your marriage or relationships between husband /wife/ children/extended family may end up being damaged by the forces of dealing with other hurting people. *(Love is the answer but sometimes it's "tough love" discipline). By the way...the hurting soul almost always appear very charming and helpful...and can trick nearly everyone ~but~ the people they chose to unleash their discreet issues upon. 

*PLEASE UNDERSTAND:*I do not say any of this posting with animosity... I really don't! I love the children and people I have lived with who suffered with these problems, but they can and will take you down too- throw you under the bus, etc... and all you can do is direct from a safe place sometimes and pray/ hope they make it back from their self destructive behaviors. *(ever watch the television show Intervention?) If you are willing to be a strong, super strong care-giver who's learned how to work thru the difficulties l then go for it....but do learn it's not all puppy and kitty kisses that will fix an abandoned child's life. In fact that only makes them more insecure...they need guidance.


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

YUMMMY..I have cookie dough....(but I'm not sharing with the children! ( pun intended!) )


----------



## remmettn (Dec 26, 2005)

How Feral are these kids


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

secretcreek said:


> Mpillow...all I can say is that I absoltely TOTALLY understand your postion...TOTALLY. She's not being sarcastic when she mentions "load".
> 
> I too have lived with/raised beautiful and talented and outwardly wonderful-but inwardly terribly damaged children that had major neglect issues: You'd hope food hoarding is the worst they'd deal with....!! I was thinking age 3 or so...mpillow. Family disruptions and disfunction and after much life experiences and counselling for my children/family...I can say without a doubt that Mpillow is correct about personality disorder problems ( from personality disorders----to attachment disorder---to bi-polar-----all the way up to Sociopath/psychopath. Certainly it is honorable to take care of the hurting/helpless...*BUT you need to be educated in how to help correctly*, and to be super aware of the convoluted thinking and manipulations that some children develop as coping skills to give them the sense of "security" they were robbed of elsewhere. You can save their lives (((IF))) they let you...You can feed them and Love them...it may or may
> not be reciprical(sp?). Many of these folks deepest issues is that they really don't trust that anyone really wants to love them or that they are deserving of that love although they outwardly will suck you dry of emotion.
> ...


great post!...chaos consumes and these kids love chaos because they are very feral indeed... chaos=opportunity to manipulate and control

The odds of winning are like going to Vegas.


----------



## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

mpillow said:


> attachment disorder is the root of the problem no doubt. But "normal" folk are good hearted and believe love conquers all....love is good but these kids can't process it.


I hope you see my long post somewhere in here that says I totally understand your position. I do know that attachment disorder has a spectrum like autism does. I' know siblings that were ...oh say middle of the spectrum....with attachment disorder: but polar opposites in personality. One- who was neglected but taken out of that bio home at about one month of age... turned out very well with only ADHD issues but able to process love, and develop loving kind relationships. Another came to his adoptive family at three days old and still has issues with abandonment- even though he grew up in a most wonderful supportive home and dearly loves his adoptive parents...

The other sibling, left in the neglectful home for the first 5 months of age...is also intelligent and seemingly loving...and raised with all the love that sibling could and couldn't handle...self destructed at age 17 and after two yrs of falling down a pit and living a life of university of hard knocks hit the bottom...and is now much now aware of the love that person was given and how much better they had it when they lived in a loving home who supported them. That person is now turning their life around: working and earing what they purchase, and going to school to climb out of their "hole"...and had to grow up a whole bunch... That person will probably always have things to work on, but they are doing much better and have a huge compassionate heart for hurting children ( even if that person at times is pretty selfish and grows tired of help those hurting children...comes with the self centeredness of attachment disorder)..ugh...

MY opinion is that God wants a complete family that supports and gives a child a sense of worth and trust from day one is what works best... I've seen the other side. But I understand the huge fear of a negelcted or abandoned child and would once again cope with the tough stuff. *(I think I am about to be a grandma to three little ones who my adopted son ( age 20) wants to be the adopted daddy to before too long....oh boy....


----------



## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

deaconjim said:


> We can and certainly should prep for what might happen in this world, but ultimately we have to prep for what might happen in the next. This is what comes to mind when I consider situations such as these:


So, does one prep accordingly, with the view of obtaining warehouses full of supplies, to raise every child that's dropped by? I think Christian charity would demand taking in the amount that you could honestly raise. I'm talking Dark Skies EOTW scenario... civilization is gone and ain't coming back for maybe a decade or ever...


hintonlady said:


> My opinion will probably be met with scorn.
> 
> It should be noted that I am very resourceful when it comes to stretching a meal. Harsh actions would only come if absolutely required.


No Scorn here... Humans will go through a great cleansing during the Dark Days.



deaconjim said:


> That starving child might well have been sent there to take care of you.


 One or two, no problem. A dozen? A hundred? There is a line, that if crossed, would mean all those you've already taken in, and your own family, would depart this earthly realm quicker.



Ernie said:


> Let's get one thing perfectly clear here ...
> 
> I'm a jerk. I'm a big, rude, arrogant jerk who is self-centered, callous, and cruel. Not just some of the time, but almost ALL of the time.
> 
> If I ever, ever, even remotely approach the likeable status, it's not the real Ernie you're seeing. It's the grace of Christ that I struggle day and night to find shining through.


But how do you really feel? I look at you (never having seen you IRL of course) as a big ol prepped teddy bear! Of course, a properly prepped teddy bear is probably going to need to be big, rude, arrogant, self centered, callous, cruel, and have a big ol bag of hard heartedness stored away, just in case.

To not have some of these qualities would mean you go down in the 'first round' of trials.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd easily take in several children, if they seemed to be normalized, and not diseased... If they found their way here in the first place, I'd consider it a major OPSEC Fail... my place isn't easily found. I'd worry about their parents lingering. I CANnot see a parent leaving a child behind, without first trying to Take What others have, first. No one, once the stomach starts eating on the ribs, is going to just lay down and die, if they think they can steal/beg/forage off of someone else.

I'd rather not be placed in a situation where feral children are left on my doorstep. The anatolians here stay hungry all the time anyhow... they've taken live pigs and made them into snacks (they eat lots of pork scraps I bring home 3x a week, anyhow). I'd be aghast if I saw them playing with human baby skulls in the front yard... either ones left unwittingly in the 'feed bowl' at the front door (where the dogs eat)... or left elsewhere, and the dogs dragged home. They already bring amazing amounts of gynormous bones home with them.

Infants? Geesh... ain't no infant diddly here, supply wise. Old enough to walk and talk, they have a chance... diaper sized? All chilluns, not familied in well stocked/prepped households deep in the country, away from zombies, I think would perish... It'd take some real skillsets, and a well stocked everything, imho again, to do infants, in the Dark Days. Afterwards, who knows... 

Nice (but of course, dark) thought provoking thread...


----------



## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

Ernie said:


> I keep trying to think this way as well. After all, no sparrow falls without His notice. I have to imagine that if a starving child makes it to my doorstep then he was probably guided there by God for me to take care of.


I agree "consider the lillies of the field"-sermon on the mount -Matthew/ "Care for the widows and orphans".../"If you feed the poor, cloth the naked/ take care of the least of your brethern..you do so likewise unto me (Christ)...but the reality is that it can make things very very difficult, but with God...(((all things are possible))). I know that to be true. 
-scrt crk


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

secret creek, you hit the nail on the head! 

For me, I wasn't that bad. I was much worse than your average kid, but not terrible when it comes to abused children. I wanted very much for someone to love me, and looking back, I did things that would make people SCREAM (inside, of course) just to test their mettle. DID they love me? WOULD they go the distance? I saw kids who hated everyone (my brother is one) My brother, he will smile at you, work hard, let you think for years that he is this sweet inocent young man. And then you realize he stole all the money for your bills, he's been using meth the entire time, he was stealing you blind right underneathe your nose and blaming others for it. When we were kids, he blamed me. And I got into trouble, for HIS misbehaviors. Once we grew up (or I did, at least) he blamed the tenants at the complex I managed. 

He isn't as bad as I've seen it, but he is a real world example of someone I love so very dearly and who screwed me over so very badly. Kids who are abused...they decide sometimes that no one cares, so why be good. Or they get convinced in their head they are bad, and it is so hard to convince them otherwise. So hard to shake them of that idea. And do you know how the behave? Like monsters. 

You CAN turn them around. I was turned around. I hope soon to be a very productive member of this earth, if not society. But turning kids with histories around is very hard, takes disipline (but not TOO much) hard work, supervision, and trust at some point. It is such a tight rope, and if you fall, they will stab your back. 

Trust me. My brother is living proof.


----------



## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

texican said:


> So, does one prep accordingly, with the view of obtaining warehouses full of supplies, to raise every child that's dropped by? I think Christian charity would demand taking in the amount that you could honestly raise. I'm talking Dark Skies EOTW scenario... civilization is gone and ain't coming back for maybe a decade or ever...


No, I think you should prep as you feel led to do. When God gives you a job to do, He also provides accordingly. Look through the Bible, you'll never find a single place where God says "Oops!" He won't be taken by surprise, nor will He fail to plan for something. 



texican said:


> One or two, no problem. A dozen? A hundred? There is a line, that if crossed, would mean all those you've already taken in, and your own family, would depart this earthly realm quicker.


If that's the case, so be it. We've prepped for that too.


----------



## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

deaconjim said:


> That starving child might well have been sent there to take care of you.


Dear Sir... That statement hit me most profoundly...made me ball my eyes out. Sometimes all I have is that I believe and trust that God has a WAY bigger idea in mind....WAY BIGGER. He never,ever lets me down....challenges me beyond what I thnk I can stand...OH YOU BET. But He never leaves me as long as I do His will. Ever.


----------



## Sunbee (Sep 30, 2008)

Seems to me that it's more likely that you'd see kids who came from a healthy family before collapse than a messed up one. People who aren't taking care of their kids before don't seem likely to me to take them to someone else after. None of my nieces and nephews' parents prep, but they are good kids. They wouldn't likely make it to us--too far, so I'd hope that someone closer would be able to take them in. If they made it to us, you bet we'd take them in, but there are hundreds or thousands of miles in the way.


----------



## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

Ernie said:


> Let's get one thing perfectly clear here ...
> 
> I'm a jerk. I'm a big, rude, arrogant jerk who is self-centered, callous, and cruel. Not just some of the time, but almost ALL of the time.
> 
> ...


I like the "realness" in your words. I agree...people will fail, but God's will is perfect.


----------



## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

Shrarvrs88 said:


> secret creek, you hit the nail on the head!
> 
> For me, I wasn't that bad. I was much worse than your average kid, but not terrible when it comes to abused children. I wanted very much for someone to love me, and looking back, I did things that would make people SCREAM (inside, of course) just to test their mettle. DID they love me? WOULD they go the distance? I saw kids who hated everyone (my brother is one) My brother, he will smile at you, work hard, let you think for years that he is this sweet inocent young man. And then you realize he stole all the money for your bills, he's been using meth the entire time, he was stealing you blind right underneathe your nose and blaming others for it. When we were kids, he blamed me. And I got into trouble, for HIS misbehaviors. Once we grew up (or I did, at least) he blamed the tenants at the complex I managed.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry that life was so hard for you...I really am. I do understand all you spoke of. It's beautiful that you survived and can see yourself moving forward past the anger/hurt stuff.... You will(okay already DO) have a very strong survival will!

Sometimes the brain of a hurt (abused/neglected/drug damaged) child (I'm not talking knee booboo hurts) never developes fully and the judgement and emotions areas are damaged for life. What scares the crap out of me are all the innocent children born to crackmoms -addicted at birth, or the babies abused and neglected that will be growing up withno guidance and then will be roaming the world with little to no conscious... I can let that thought overwhelm me...but I don't chose to...just can't. 
-scrt crk


----------



## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Not trying to provoke an argument here or religious debate, but are those of you stating that you'd let other people's children starve before helping them identifying yourselves as Christians?
> 
> I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind these decisions.
> 
> ...


Yet another one of your posts that hit the heart and have me thinking. I never put 2 and 2 together that way......


----------



## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

Ohio dreamer said:


> Yet another one of your posts that hit the heart and have me thinking. I never put 2 and 2 together that way......


Is it any wonder that the bible is absolutely chock full of "sheep" and "shepherd" illustrations???? Lost sheep, sheep before shear's is dumb(quiet), all we like sheep are led astray, slaughtered beloved lamb story told to King David, PSALMS 23 is the complete story of a good shepherd leading his sheep to safe places to eat drink, trust...etc... *(but why are goats made out as the bad guys?...I know... because they are thinkers and get in trouble and because they go ferel so easily (ie: don't need a herder) 
-scrt crk (raises her beloved goaties)


----------



## Dutchie (Mar 14, 2003)

I like animals much more than children. OK ... I don't like children that much bat all.

But I would NEVER turn away a homeless, hungry animal OR child. NEVER.


----------



## 36376 (Jan 24, 2009)

I hope me and mine do not have to find out what we would do. I am a Christian, but I've been burned so many times with caring for others. It has taken a toll on my physical and mental health. I have first had experience with this. If the situation ever arose, you better believe there would be some serious praying. At the very least I would take them long enough to place them in a safe environment. I don't think I could just send them away by themselves. My husband wouldn't just send them away alone either. Prayer, Prayer, Prayer and try to discern God's will.


----------



## Chuck (Oct 27, 2003)

godsgirl said:


> I can not imagine not feeding them. THAT IS NOT AN OPTION ! If the Lord places a child in need in my life and I refuse to take care of that child I would never beable to live with myself.


A commendable assertion, to be sure. But it's something I have to face often as a war correspondent. In Congo, I walked through a camp which held about 80,000 orphans and children under the age of 12. About a thousand were dying every day from malnutrition and disease. In three months most of them would be dead, but there were another 250,000 living outside the camp, waiting to get in.

How do you deal with it when God puts 80,000 needy children in your life? Because they are there right this moment, in that camp, and nobody is helping them. But I could not feed them all. It was a very heart-rending realization. I've had the same thing happen in Haiti, Iraq, Ethiopia, Rwanda, Kenya, Burma, Peru, Afghanistan and a host of other places. 

I've had women hand me their babies and beg me to take them home, knowing they couldn't feed them and they would soon die. Here in Mexico last Sunday a woman sat across from me in church feeding her newborn infant dirty water because she had no milk. 

I fed that one. But there are so many more, even in our neighborhood.

What have I learned? That spiritual poverty is worse than physical poverty. That death is not the worst thing that can happen. That life on this earth is suffering for many millions of people.

And I've learned to help the ones I can and leave the rest to God. Often, the best thing I can do to help those in need is use the gifts I have been given to make their plight known to the world, and in this way help hundreds of thousands more than I could help alone.


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

Secret Creek, I don't intend to garner sympathy, my life has been tough, but it has made me tougher. I have been hurt, but I chose to love my own children more, and that does not mean spoiling them, for spoiling a child is setting them up to fail. I think as much as I can, and try to decide where I stand, and I listen to those older and wiser than me. I was trained as a child, not taught. I was treated worse than most would treat their animals, but God DID turn it for better. It took a lot of patience, and love, and work on the part of many adults, and my husband was vital in my realization that people ARE good. I grew up enough to forgive, and to recognize that people can change. I know that some day, God will use what I have learned, what I have been through, to His greater good. I am still in the process of learning what I need, but I am maturign with His help. 

I ask for no sympathy. I trust the Lord has a reason, and His reasons are good. 

I DID want to illastrate what can happen, even in two children, full blooded siblings, at that, growing up in the same "home" with the same issues. How sometimes, given the right situation and people, a child can change dramatically. Some of that has to do with the child themselves, of course. They need to be willing to confront their demons and face the truth full-on, and that truth is that each person is solely responsiible for their own actions. Even if a gun were put to my head....if I do something that is wrong, I live with that my entire life. Because I made that choice. Each person will do what they choose in any cirumstance, but a vital part of growing up is realizing that what you do is your choice, not something to "get out of", which is where my brother is. 

I probably made no sense at all. I hope I did.


----------



## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

All I know is that God knows my heart and my ability, and knows what I can physically and mentally bear. He provides. I keep on, keeping on taking the challenges that are set in front of me knowing that I may well be entertaining angels unaware...being tested to see if I walk -my -talk -and if I do His will...no matter how hard I find it, I have something better when my life here is over and no guilt for not doing what I could while here. If I go down fast, I'll be able to say that I did the best I could and leave a plan of hope for the ones I leave behind. Nothing is worse than not having hope.


----------



## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

Shrarvrs88 said:


> Secret Creek, I don't intend to garner sympathy, my life has been tough, but it has made me tougher. I have been hurt, but I chose to love my own children more, and that does not mean spoiling them, for spoiling a child is setting them up to fail. I think as much as I can, and try to decide where I stand, and I listen to those older and wiser than me. I was trained as a child, not taught. I was treated worse than most would treat their animals, but God DID turn it for better. It took a lot of patience, and love, and work on the part of many adults, and my husband was vital in my realization that people ARE good. I grew up enough to forgive, and to recognize that people can change. I know that some day, God will use what I have learned, what I have been through, to His greater good. I am still in the process of learning what I need, but I am maturign with His help.
> 
> I ask for no sympathy. I trust the Lord has a reason, and His reasons are good.
> 
> ...


I meant no offense. ...it's a momma's heart. I feel for all children who've been hurt by others. If anything, your words make me smile for the hurt-by others-children I raised who are working out their lives , learning life is more than the next "blame someone else" situation. The good goal is to be responsible, and make good choices like you mentioned...and growing strong like you are. ) 
-scrt crk


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Chuck I hope you are safe....it seems very shaky down there these days!

Shrar...you are on the right track...great job!

And I don't want to seem harsh...I want you all to know that I take my job as my little one's mom very seriously...she is the work of 5 kids...supervision, explanation of Why its ok or not ok....and praise when she "gets" it and does well. I home school her because I think some of the temptations at public school would spoil all of our hard fought efforts to keep her on the straight and narrow....My family was against adopting her and I knew that I was up to the challenge but I knew she would become my "focus" because she needs it to keep her safe. Just an example of daily life....she cannot use the bathroom with the door closed because she gets into bathroom cleaners and toiletries...and has ingested way too much toothpaste (multiple times) and hydrogen peroxide once...binged on cough drops...qtips up her nose...you get the idea...
In a survival situation ....I'm maxed out.


----------



## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

My goodness, I read this thread early on and had to put it away and think about it. I am not a survivalist. I am a prepper. For some there is a difference. I have thought through many scenarios: would you shoot a person? would you eat a person? All the scenarios are gruesome. I would shoot a person to protect my children. Would I turn away children? I could not turn away children or hungry people begging. JWR has said in his writings that the biggest risk to someone trying to survive with their family is the wandering beggars. His final thoughts are that he could not handle watching others starve and so has a bug-out location in the most remote depths he can put it in order to be hidden from society during the "great die-off" that would occur in such a breakdown of civilization. My farm is remote, my plans are to place my family further hidden in the depths of it. I figure whoever finds me has been sent by God and I'll do my best. Regardless, I will not become one of the hoard. I will not go over to the dark side. (echoes of star-wars music...)


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

No offence taken, Secret Creet, just wanted to be sure I was taken the right way.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

I have not read all the posts, but in answer to the OP, I would not hesitate to take in a starving child. I know that there may be issues, but then again, we all face various issues in life. I believe God has a purpose for everything that happens in my life. If a child were left for me to tend to, then I figure God will give me a way to take care of it or them. Don't remember where it is in the Bible, but Jesus is telling them that they saw him naked, hungry, thirsty, etc and turned him away. When they argued and said they never he did, or asked him when they ever saw him like that his reply was quite telling, what you do to the least of these....... who am I to turn them away when Jesus gave me all that I have to start with?


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Ernie said:


> Heck, why would I want to survive if NOT to do God's will? This world sucks. It's either too cold, too hot, filled with mosquitos, and it's hard to find good food. All the things I really enjoy are harmful to me.
> 
> The only reason I'm here is because I'm sent. The only reason to survive is because I'm doing God's will. When that will is done, heck, take me home where the cheeseburgers are thick, the cavendish is cured to perfection, and the ale is dark and strong.
> 
> I understand other people have different motivations as to why they do things, but I can't fathom them. I'm doing all I can with what I've got.


Exactly! Besides, what sort of example would we set for our own children if we were to turn away other children. Adults are one thing, they are mature enough and capable enough to make thier own decisions, but a child has to be taught. There's an old gospel song that talks about this world is not my home, I'm just a passin through. Eventually we're all going to die, but to do so without the hope of heaven just makes this life worthless in my opinion.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

mpillow said:


> I think that a long time ago I was of the same mindset when it came to helping children..all children...no matter what.
> 
> Well I have fostered and adopted and worked with fetal alcohol kids and profoundly handicapped kids....I've done my walking in the shoes so to speak...and made my judgement call based on actual experience...
> 
> ...


Not judging you, but yes, I do have some experience in this area. Yet for me, I could not turn away a child. It's just not in me to do so.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Chuck said:


> A commendable assertion, to be sure. But it's something I have to face often as a war correspondent. In Congo, I walked through a camp which held about 80,000 orphans and children under the age of 12. About a thousand were dying every day from malnutrition and disease. In three months most of them would be dead, but there were another 250,000 living outside the camp, waiting to get in.
> 
> How do you deal with it when God puts 80,000 needy children in your life? Because they are there right this moment, in that camp, and nobody is helping them. But I could not feed them all. It was a very heart-rending realization. I've had the same thing happen in Haiti, Iraq, Ethiopia, Rwanda, Kenya, Burma, Peru, Afghanistan and a host of other places.
> 
> ...


God sends YOU because you can handle it. He doesn't send me because I wouldn't be able to.

I can't even go into downtown Chicago in wintertime and come home with all the clothes I left with. I'm a big danged softie.


----------



## beaglebiz (Aug 5, 2008)

Ernie said:


> I'm a big danged softie.


I knew it.


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

That's why I like you, Ernie. You are strong in your convictions, a grump and mean at times....but only to cover up the obvious. You are a love bug! Lucky wife and kids you got, man.


----------



## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

mpillow said:


> My view will not be popular....fair warning!
> 
> No....1) potential disease 2) traumatized kids have mental health issues (as a foster parent and adoptive parent I would say that 80% of this group have sociopathic tendancies) hungry kids will steal and hoard food 3) most will not have the work ethic necessary...I do believe that by age 10 your opportunity to influence/ingrain is over--so a losing battle I would not want to add to my LOAD.




I was also a foster/adoptive parent and it can be a trail of tears. They definitely pull at my heart strings, but I would have to reeeaaally think about it long and hard, mostly because if they are older than about 3-4 they might go back out and tell others-namely adults that you have food.


----------



## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> Exactly! Besides, what sort of example would we set for our own children if we were to turn away other children. Adults are one thing, they are mature enough and capable enough to make thier own decisions, but a child has to be taught. There's an old gospel song that talks about this world is not my home, I'm just a passin through. Eventually we're all going to die, but to do so without the hope of heaven just makes this life worthless in my opinion.



The only problem is that you are assuming that these kids are LIKE your own children. They aren't. Often they come from pretty horrific situations and try as you like, you can overcome them. I have had crack babies (and actually adopted one), fetal alcohol kids, abused and neglected kids... and the behavior problems... One 3 year old was actually abusing my own daughter who was 4!! I wouldn't put my own family and kids at risk ever again.


----------



## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Chuck said:


> A commendable assertion, to be sure. But it's something I have to face often as a war correspondent. In Congo, I walked through a camp which held about 80,000 orphans and children under the age of 12. About a thousand were dying every day from malnutrition and disease. In three months most of them would be dead, but there were another 250,000 living outside the camp, waiting to get in.
> 
> How do you deal with it when God puts 80,000 needy children in your life? Because they are there right this moment, in that camp, and nobody is helping them. But I could not feed them all. It was a very heart-rending realization. I've had the same thing happen in Haiti, Iraq, Ethiopia, Rwanda, Kenya, Burma, Peru, Afghanistan and a host of other places.
> 
> ...


But we're not talking about 80,000 children on ones' doorstep, the OP said one(or two or three).

Every single one of us is at the end of a long line of folks who survived to pass on their genes because someone had mercy to give a piece of bread. Most existence on this planet has been very desperate indeed. You start with ONE. The one that comes to your door. (that's what I believe anyway).

And for every manipulative damaged freak child out there, there is a kid who turned out *fine* because someone in their past cared. I've also come across manpulative lil monsters that come from families who have everything too. Not to mention adults.

By faith Abraham.


----------



## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

wyld thang said:


> But we're not talking about 80,000 children on ones' doorstep, the OP said one(or two or three).
> 
> Every single one of us is at the end of a long line of folks who survived to pass on their genes because someone had mercy to give a piece of bread. Most existence on this planet has been very desperate indeed. You start with ONE. The one that comes to your door. (that's what I believe anyway).
> 
> ...



You are right... there are kids that come from a hellish situation and turn out fine... but do you want to risk your own family to see if they are one of the few?


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

My nephew came to stay with me for a week last summer. The kid is seriously messed up. If his stepfather wasn't already in prison then I believe they'd be finding his body in a cornfield somewhere and I doubt the police would look too hard for the killer.

I could not reach this kid. 6 days and not one glimmer of hope. He lies, he steals, and he bullies other children. He's 15 years old and I hate to think of him as a lost cause, seeing as how he's family and all, but I seriously had no idea how to reach him. I would HOPE that in a SHTF situation where the kid realizes that it's conform or starve then he'd straighten out. A lot of times I think that these sorts of personalities thrive only because the law prevents us from hauling them out behind the barn and putting a bullet in the base of their skull. But I just don't know. Maybe some people are just so fundamentally broken that you can't reach them.

I hate to think so. Y'all would be shocked if you knew the 20 year old Ernie, or even the 30 year old Ernie. The 40 year old Ernie has finally learned how to be a human being. There's hope for the 50 year old Ernie too.


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

_I could not reach this kid. 6 days and not one glimmer of hope. He lies, he steals, and he bullies other children. He's 15 years old and I hate to think of him as a lost cause, seeing as how he's family and all, but I seriously had no idea how to reach him. I would HOPE that in a SHTF situation where the kid realizes that it's conform or starve then he'd straighten out. A lot of times I think that these sorts of personalities thrive only because the law prevents us from hauling them out behind the barn and putting a bullet in the base of their skull. But I just don't know. Maybe some people are just so fundamentally broken that you can't reach them._
You know what I'm talking about...
Which is why I take on no more....my hands are full trying to SAVE the one I committed to...she would try to hurt a younger sibling...she tries to hurt younger playmates...the animals...we wanted more children(after adopting) but realized the risk...A SACRIFICE we chose to make.


----------



## jessepona (Sep 7, 2005)

This thread... it's given me a lot to think about. I'm grateful to everyone who posted, especially Ernie.


----------



## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Astrid said:


> You are right... there are kids that come from a hellish situation and turn out fine... but do you want to risk your own family to see if they are one of the few?


Because I have had a handful of people in my life who were shrewd as serpents, but full of Jesus. They went right into the pit and came out the other side. "By faith Abraham"--when God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, Abraham thought WTH yet raised the knife because God said so(feed the orphan, care for the old, defend the innocent). God PROVIDED a ram, a substitute sacrifice, and preserved His People. The Bible is full of stories where people went out on a limb to do what God said, and really cool stuff happened(which had to do with preserving the people). 

The Bible says to be smart as serpents, that doesn't mean be a sitting duck, nor to be miserly because something bad might happen--it means be strong, watchful, clearsighted, knowing what the pure truth of things is. I'm just of a belief that what comes to my doorstep, face to face, is not random, that I have a choice for good(even thought that thing might die real quick) or not.

Just, frankly, I believe what the bible says. Don't hide your light under a bushel--I think that applies to SHTF too.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Astrid said:


> The only problem is that you are assuming that these kids are LIKE your own children. They aren't. Often they come from pretty horrific situations and try as you like, you can overcome them. I have had crack babies (and actually adopted one), fetal alcohol kids, abused and neglected kids... and the behavior problems... One 3 year old was actually abusing my own daughter who was 4!! I wouldn't put my own family and kids at risk ever again.


I took in a 14 yr old girl who's mother died of a drug overdose. Her stepdad had been sexually molesting her since she was 5 yrs old. So yes, I'm sure they would be like my children. I have an adopted son who's birthmom I don't know much about. He has some learning disabilities and will probably never be able to survive on his own. I think that gives me enough experience to state that I would take in children who were hungry.

Bottom line, my kids ARE those kids. Would I take in more? You bet I would!


----------



## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

There are risks involved, but still.. I would take them.
But.. there are rules.
Everybody works to eat etc..
and if there are real problems, then food will be cut off. If that is not an attitude adjustment and the straggler is a threat to the security of all.. well then.. they will be sent on their way ..or whatever....

But being cold and hungry and exposed to the elements before coming to me does have the added advantage of making them enthusiastic about retaining their new found position in a plce with a roof and food.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Ernie said:


> My nephew came to stay with me for a week last summer. The kid is seriously messed up. If his stepfather wasn't already in prison then I believe they'd be finding his body in a cornfield somewhere and I doubt the police would look too hard for the killer.
> 
> I could not reach this kid. 6 days and not one glimmer of hope. He lies, he steals, and he bullies other children. He's 15 years old and I hate to think of him as a lost cause, seeing as how he's family and all, but I seriously had no idea how to reach him. I would HOPE that in a SHTF situation where the kid realizes that it's conform or starve then he'd straighten out. A lot of times I think that these sorts of personalities thrive only because the law prevents us from hauling them out behind the barn and putting a bullet in the base of their skull. But I just don't know. Maybe some people are just so fundamentally broken that you can't reach them.
> 
> I hate to think so. Y'all would be shocked if you knew the 20 year old Ernie, or even the 30 year old Ernie. The 40 year old Ernie has finally learned how to be a human being. There's hope for the 50 year old Ernie too.


Don't give up on the 15 yr old. The 14 yr old we took in is now in the USAF as a security police. She's happily married and doing quite well. We also partially raised her uncle, who was only a couple of years older than she is. We got involved in his life when he was 8 yrs old. His Dad had a drug and alcohol problem. Not sure what his mom's problem was, but she was never around, which is why I said we partially raised him. He basically lived with us, although we never had legal custody of him. His mom worked out of state and only came around about once a week, leaving him and his 2 sisters to fend for themselves. He decided that he had more security with us than with two teenage sisters, so he stayed with us except for the one day a week his mom was in town. Then he'd go see her so she would buy him clothes ect. He became a youth pastor and just recently joined the Air Force (see a pattern here? DH is in the AF and I was in). Bottom line, we never know until we try, but if we don't try, we already know those kids won't make it.


----------



## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

Chuck said:


> A commendable assertion, to be sure. But it's something I have to face often as a war correspondent. In Congo, I walked through a camp which held about 80,000 orphans and children under the age of 12. About a thousand were dying every day from malnutrition and disease. In three months most of them would be dead, but there were another 250,000 living outside the camp, waiting to get in.
> 
> How do you deal with it when God puts 80,000 needy children in your life? Because they are there right this moment, in that camp, and nobody is helping them. But I could not feed them all. It was a very heart-rending realization. I've had the same thing happen in Haiti, Iraq, Ethiopia, Rwanda, Kenya, Burma, Peru, Afghanistan and a host of other places.
> 
> ...


Chuck, that is a rough position to be in, and nothing anyone can say will ever make it easier to see. You have to do what God calls you to do. Perhaps showing the world what is going on is your part in what He has in mind to help them. Jesus did say that we would always have the poor among us.

Of course, you are right about spiritual poverty. Not a single one of us will leave this world alive unless the Lord comes back soon, and that is why preparing for the next world is much more important than preparing for what may come in this one.


----------



## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

mpillow said:


> _I could not reach this kid. 6 days and not one glimmer of hope. He lies, he steals, and he bullies other children. He's 15 years old and I hate to think of him as a lost cause, seeing as how he's family and all, but I seriously had no idea how to reach him. I would HOPE that in a SHTF situation where the kid realizes that it's conform or starve then he'd straighten out. A lot of times I think that these sorts of personalities thrive only because the law prevents us from hauling them out behind the barn and putting a bullet in the base of their skull. But I just don't know. Maybe some people are just so fundamentally broken that you can't reach them._
> You know what I'm talking about...
> Which is why I take on no more....my hands are full trying to SAVE the one I committed to...she would try to hurt a younger sibling...she tries to hurt younger playmates...the animals...we wanted more children(after adopting) but realized the risk...A SACRIFICE we chose to make.



I know EXACTLY what you mean. I had a 9 year old foster child once who killed 2 rabbits and a goat kid by putting a hose in its mouth because "It looked thirsty". I had to have the state send her to a group home for "level 4" kids. My son, who we adopted, was a crack baby and we had him since birth. He at least didn't live through whatever hell put the 9 year old into such a state, but even he has anger issues, has hurt the other kids and isn't nice to animals. In a SHTF situation its not worth the risk unless its a very young child.... and even then be cautious.


----------



## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Someone gave their child, I would have to do in return; I have given a child,one I couldn't/woulden't let suffer. Now, I would have to stand the test of time and what it has given me. There is no place for excuses, as I've been given Bessings for a reason.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

7thswan said:


> Someone gave their child, I would have to do in return; I have given a child,one I couldn't/woulden't let suffer. Now, I would have to stand the test of time and what it has given me. There is no place for excuses, as I've been given Bessings for a reason.


Very well said.


----------



## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

It is not like every single child that shows up at the door will be damaged and messed up.
There will be suburban kids etc.. the crack babies and the children of true freaks will be long gone.
If the child doesn't look or act right, then they go..whatever that needs to mean.

There is no need to keep focusing on the completely unlikely worst case scenarios..

You assess the situation just like you would assess any situation and make a decision based on what you know and what you feel and what you intuit. And you work with the decision that you make.


----------



## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Sonshine said:


> Very well said.


Sonshine, if you only knew...you've brought tears to me. Thank You.


----------



## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

7thswan said:


> Someone gave their child, I would have to do in return; I have given a child,one I couldn't/woulden't let suffer. Now, I would have to stand the test of time and what it has given me. There is no place for excuses, as I've been given Bessings for a reason.


a-freakin-men


----------



## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

To put a different spin on this.... 

What if one is already involved in volunteer work as a card carrying 'Certified Disaster Worker' for the good of their community, in times of a crisis? In my emergency capacities/ duties - I could be involved in many different emergency scenarios, in which I would be working with the authorities in assisting the general public.

Are we then supposed to give even more of ourselves/ our resources, on rescuing an individual? If I were feeling that charitable and not suspicious of the circumstances - I may hand the child part of a MRE meal, and send them on their way with a warning never to return. 
I have no prep items for children, since there are none in my household.
So now do I need to go out and obtain supplies for the possibilities of children, because the original scenario may happen someday? I don't think so.....

For a child or three to find themselves on my doorstep, there would have to be an adult involved in getting them way up here. Where's the adult(s), that brought them up the hill? I would ASAP get the kids to a place where they could be cared for, even if it is in a make shift refugee camp.

During an emergency, it is amazing what resources my State issued ID card allows me access to. I am sure that I could get the local Red Cross or any other agency running the local shelters, to take in the kids that wandered up here and onto my doorstep.

Plus what if the emergency that has the kids wandering around instead of an Earthquake, was a biological event?
Do you dare take in possible carriers/ contagious persons? Besides malnutrition, do they have other communicable diseases/ parasites? Are you ready to deal with serious medical problems that are introduced into your own family, from you being charitable to strange children?

I also wanted to say my attitude is not due to being callous, but rather from being a realist.


----------



## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

We all learn from personal experiences, but it's good to have all kinds of different perspectives from other people. Some of us who have become jaded by our experiences can get a different perspective by others who haven't had those experiences. However it is always wise to consider everyone's point of view.

I appreciate you guys who have never experienced what I have with foster kids. On the other hand, I think my experiences will help me to be more discerning if something like this were ever to happen.


----------



## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

Uhm after thinking on this for a bit, I'd have to say I would take in a starving kid. Children may not always know WHY they are starving, but they sure do know they are hungry, so I'd do my best to take care of the immediate problem of filling an empty tummy.

Then I would have to see just what sort of waif I had on my hands. Could be like a horse gone bad, just no hope and I'd have to figure out how to re-home said child. Even I have my limits as to what types of things I can deal with alone. 

I look at it this way - why would the Good Lord send me a hungry kid (any kid that lands on my doorstep is determined to be there as the farm is quite removed from the road and view of any passerby)..so I figure I would feed first, figure out the mental and physical issues second.

Not all children are damaged. Some are slightly damaged, some are heavily damaged and some are beyond repair. How would I be able to determine that in the split second of opening my door and seeing little child on doorstep wanting food? I don't reckon it would be too fair to turn a kidling away based on a split second look. What would I do? Take said child back down the driveway and put the kid out like a dumped pup? I believe that God would likely put a very very black mark beside my name in the book if I did that. 

I do believe that what we do here on Earth is kept up with by God or maybe he delegates it to an Angel but I do believe HE knows. I don't think I would want to stand up there and tell him that I put myself before a child. That would really be a hard thing to do.

I think about Mother Teresa and how she lived in the slums of India and helped the poor..she could have retired and lived an easier life but she chose to keep helping the poor. Now I am no Mother Teresa, but I figure if she could help hundreds, I could help one or two. Even in a very bad time.

I guess we all have to do what we think is right in our own minds and hearts. In my heart I know that feeding a kid would be the right thing for me to do. 

Chuck, I don't know how you do it..that would break my heart seeing that many children starving. We know it happens but I don't think any of us can imagine the magnitude of the problem because the numbers you speak of are so huge. In this scenario we are talking one or two children, but the enormity of what you describe is beyond most of us to imagine. Bless you for what you are doing, stay safe out there.


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

I think if a kid were starving, if they had lived through the hell that will come, they are going to have issues. If their parents cared and loved them, they are going to have issues. True, most (if not all) kids of drug addicted, negletful parents will die soon after, but any kid is going to go through severe trauma, esp. if they starve and have to scrounge, steal, and lie to put something in their bellies, and esp. if they see their parents doing that (what parent WOULDN'T if their kids were starving to death?!). 

So I think it's a fair assumtion that any kid that shows up on your doorstep after TEOTWAWKI comes (assuming it does in our lifetimes) will have some issues. Going hungry AS AN ADULT put me in the path of "prepping", being so hungry the thought of food makes you cry will do that. I didn't become emaciated, by any means, and had the knowledge of WHY I was hungry, although not the knowledge of how to feed my belly legally. This is in an age of gov. assistance, folks. An age of free meals at shelters. If you don't know where to go to get food, if you are out of your element (as many folks would be, migrating to find food and safe shelter) you ARE GOING TO GO HUNGRY. Period. And hunger (true hunger, not the "oh, I missed a meal, poor me") does things to the way you think and process information in your brain. 

Before, I never would have thought twice about feeding others, giving my last bite. Now, I think about it a lot. Now, if someone comes uninvited, into my food (even if they live with me) I panic, I get mad, and I threw one roommate out because he just didn't get it. the prospect of people coming over for dinner terrifies me...not that I don't have enough to share, I do. But it still scares me. 

So yes, any person you take in, I think it's safe to say they will have issues. Young girls (and boys) coming in are likely to have suffered sexual abuse...look at how rampant rape is in collapsed society. Look at Haiti. Look at New Orleans after Katrina. These kids are likely to have barely escaped with their lives from their homes...and very lucky if they have. 

They will likely be VERY grateful for any help, and worship the ground you walk on, even if they do not show it. Once I found out where a shelter was, the woman offered me an orange. You have NO idea how amazing her kindness felt to me....I hadn't eaten in days. I felt like I had met an angel. 

Many (most) of these kids would likely take advantage of whatever they could. You would likely find food in their sleeping space, stashed. I STILL do that, as a married mother. If I go on trips, I have to stop myself from taking the jelly containers at restaraunts. Not tht I need them or would eat them, even. But like I said, it changes the way you think. I can control my behavior. And I do, but I want so badly to take them, just in case. 

These kids...the threat of withholding food would likely be a very powerful motivator....I know because I have been there. It may be hard to get through to them....you would have to watch them like a hawk. 

After mulling this over all day...I have to say, I would not turn away a child. If the parents came and were willing to work hard, I would take them too, and make sure that they understood that there is a probationary period...of forever. If someone turned out to be a bad apple, I would deal with that then.

This is just the conclusion of my thoughts today. Thought I would share it.


----------



## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

Sonshine said:


> Not judging you, but yes, I do have some experience in this area. Yet for me, I could not turn away a child. It's just not in me to do so.


I believe mpillow was being very frank about not being able to take in others...not because she hasn't a heart. Her situation dictates that she is at capacity in her current situation giving care to a special needs child. I would never fault a person for knowing their situation.

-scrt crk


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

I think it is commendable, knowing your limits and what you would do, actually. If you take on more than you can take, you are helping no one.


----------



## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

Just because people don't shout from the roof tops all the things they have seen and done, does not mean that they have not had the experience. Some are just quieter about it.

In answer to your post Chuck. I cannot imagine the emotional torment in seeing all those children in need and knowing that you were helpless at that time to do something. But I do know that you will make a difference through your work.


----------



## Pouncer (Oct 28, 2006)

I hope I never have to find out. I am pretty sure I will have my hands full with family children as it is, and that is the limit of preps I can manage. 

This thread has been very thought provoking and was not really something I had considered. I suppose it depends a great deal on just what sort of emergency occurs. I can only think of two boys I would not allow in, under any circumstances. 

And my 40 year old cousin, I'd just as soon shoot. He's likely the biggest threat to my safety.


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I don't know what I'd do. In the past I've had another's son live with us (when married) and it was a + and - situation.

Since then, I've allowed a friend of my daughter's to land with us for a few months - just a phone call's notice.

But in this type of situation, I'd be paying attention to the setting, the child/ren, and what my 'bones' were telling me; and the small voice from above that from time to time is annoyingly loud until I do what it says.

I cannot give a solid answer to this, but I can give more thought to it.


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

It's not just about me...no kid deserves to be put in danger...and that would be a HUGE risk to a "younger" kid....in my household. I LOVE babies of any kind, I Love my daughter...I KNOW my daughter...


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Astrid said:


> We all learn from personal experiences, but it's good to have all kinds of different perspectives from other people. Some of us who have become jaded by our experiences can get a different perspective by others who haven't had those experiences. However it is always wise to consider everyone's point of view.
> 
> I appreciate you guys who have never experienced what I have with foster kids. On the other hand, I think my experiences will help me to be more discerning if something like this were ever to happen.


As you stated, we all learn from personal experiences. My own personal experiences in life have placed me in the frame of mind that I could never turn away a child. I'm not saying that everyone has to do what I would, just that this is what I would do. I'm not trying to judge those who, for whatever reason, don't believe they could take in a child in these circumstances. Having lost my own children many years ago and being childless for so long, my love for children could not allow me to turn one away. I've worked in children's ministries for about 25 years now. I had always prayed for God to send me the kids no one else wanted. Be careful what you pray for.  I've ministered to kids involved in drugs and gangs. I've ministered to kids who have watched their parents blow their brains out. I've ministered to kids who have been through things that most of us would think of as unimaginable. Throughout the years my DH and I have brought many of these kids into our home. Some, through the grace of God, we were able to help. Others, we still pray for, but for me, I would let them in my home again, regardless of whether the world was falling apart around us.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

secretcreek said:


> I believe mpillow was being very frank about not being able to take in others...not because she hasn't a heart. Her situation dictates that she is at capacity in her current situation giving care to a special needs child. I would never fault a person for knowing their situation.
> 
> -scrt crk


Which is why I stated I was not trying to judge, but was also trying to explain, maybe not in the best way, that I do understand, because I have also raised some of these children, and in fact have a DS that we adopted who will probably never be able to survive on his own. He's 12 yrs old right now and still can not read at a second grade level. Did not start speaking until he was 5 yrs old. Has some pretty iffy social skills, although he loves everyone, he just doesn't quite understand socially accepted behaviors. Each of us has our own reasons for the decisions we make in life. I don't fault anyone for their decisions, but I also have my own reasons for mine.


----------



## deaconjim (Oct 31, 2005)

The thing is, we all have to do as we are led to do, and with an understanding of our own limitations. I have said what I would do in this situation, but I'm not saying that is what everyone should do. In the end, no one else will have to face me and answer for their actions. It is God we have to answer to, and He leads us in the direction we should go.


----------



## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

Reverse the situation!

What if you was the only parent left and was very ill? You know you only have a few short weeks left before you die and you have kids. Wouldn't you want someone to be nice enough to take them in, feed them and clothe them? 

What if the situation gets bad enough that people start turning to cannibalism? Wasn't it in the 40's or 50's that China was so broke that people started eating their children? Would we do the same here in the U.S. ?


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

well said, deacon!


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

The difference between an Autistic child, a delayed (old word "retarded") and an emotionally damaged kid is the ability to tell the truth. 
Wrap your head around it...my kid is intelligent...she could read at age 4...she is BEAUTIFUL! the bluest eyes god ever made and freckles that would take all day to kiss...

She will tell you the sky is green and the grass is blue and laugh to test you out...she will tell you "My mom doesn't let me eat" after you watched her eat a bowl of spaghetti and homemade bread...because in her mind when I tell her you can't have cookies for dinner...her mind warps it....


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Oldcountryboy said:


> Reverse the situation!
> 
> What if you was the only parent left and was very ill? You know you only have a few short weeks left before you die and you have kids. Wouldn't you want someone to be nice enough to take them in, feed them and clothe them?
> 
> What if the situation gets bad enough that people start turning to cannibalism? Wasn't it in the 40's or 50's that China was so broke that people started eating their children? Would we do the same here in the U.S. ?


Why don't you start a thread along those lines since it's 180 point of view from this one?


----------



## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

Our Little Farm said:


> Just because people don't shout from the roof tops all the things they have seen and done, does not mean that they have not had the experience. Some are just quieter about it.
> .


Yep. Uh-huh. That's right.
I was a birth child in a home that took in foster kids.. not the most pleasant of childhood experiences.


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

WHAT?!?! China was eating it's children? And so recently? And now I must google....

Definately start a thread about that 180* situation...


----------



## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

This thread has had me pondering all day...and reliving some very painful moments as a parent where we had to take back our home and safety of our lives... and send a barely legal adult we'd loved and raised ...and grew very fearful of...away for the better of everyone else and their own out -of -control self. 

The good news is that that young adult lived thru their SHTF experience, and now thanks us for our tough love ... asked forgivness, has apologized profusely, and while not living here anymore...is a hardcore prepper who calls and asks advice all the time. But...before the "happy ending"...there were days I really thought I was going to lose my mind...no joke. "walking on eggshells all the time kind of "shell shock" /PTSD stress is TERRIBLE, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But I lived didn't I? Who knows how that made me a stronger, wiser person in the big picture... It's sure allowed me to help others since.

-scrt crk *(I hope no one takes that as me tooting my horn).


----------



## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

mpillow said:


> The difference between an Autistic child, a delayed (old word "retarded") and an emotionally damaged kid is the ability to tell the truth.
> Wrap your head around it...my kid is intelligent...she could read at age 4...she is BEAUTIFUL! the bluest eyes god ever made and freckles that would take all day to kiss...
> 
> She will tell you the sky is green and the grass is blue and laugh to test you out...she will tell you "My mom doesn't let me eat" after you watched her eat a bowl of spaghetti and homemade bread...because in her mind when I tell her you can't have cookies for dinner...her mind warps it....


BTDT!!! Total backward thinking, twisted everything you said into something ugly ( warped processing too)... or gave answers to push your buttons to create a response even if it's a negative one. Bless you for keeping your daughter secure and safe.
-scrt crk


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

That is not taken as tooting your own horn by me. Sometimes, we have to do very painful things to help our loved ones. 

Bad situations make us stronger. 

I believe tough times are sent to us so that, in the future, we have what is needed to give what we are meant to. 

There should be no shame in admitting what we have survived, IMHO, and it SHOULD be acnolidged that it changes us, teaches us.


----------



## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Just throwing this in(thx SP, Mother Theresa was brought to my mind too). (oops, from wikipedia)

When Mother Teresa received the (Nobel Peace)prize, she was asked, "What can we do to promote world peace?" She answered "Go home and love your family." Building on this theme in her Nobel Lecture, she said: "Around the world, not only in the poor countries, but I found the poverty of the West so much more difficult to remove. When I pick up a person from the street, hungry, I give him a plate of rice, a piece of bread, I have satisfied. I have removed that hunger. But a person that is shut out, that feels unwanted, unloved, terrified, the person that has been thrown out from society&#8212;that poverty is so hurtable [sic] and so much, and I find that very difficult."


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

mpillow, you have every ounce of respect from me. Your daughter is so blessed to have you. I am sure only you trully know how much so. I am also certain she was sent to you for a reason. 

Thank you for taking her and helping her.


----------



## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

secretcreek said:


> But I lived didn't I? Who knows how that made me a stronger, wiser person in the big picture... It's sure allowed me to help others since.
> 
> ).


yup!!


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Shrarvrs88 said:


> WHAT?!?! China was eating it's children? And so recently? And now I must google....
> 
> Definately start a thread about that 180* situation...


North Korea. Not China.


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

according to Wikipedia (I know, I know) there have been MANY instances of cannabalism in the last hundred years....ugh. Just the thought...


----------



## Ruby (May 10, 2002)

It's funny how so many on here would turn away a human child but take in stray dogs and cats.

I would not be able to sleep at night if I turned away a child. You could always quarintine them until your sure they are free of sickness. I would not want to stand before God on judgement day and have him ask why I turned away one of his children.

As far as infants being fed. You can give them potato water with a little sugar. Of course it's not infant formula but you can feed them soft scrambled eggs cooked cereal. There is lots of things that you can feed a baby without having to breast feed it.

I'm with deconjim and Ernie on this one. God has a plan, if he sends those children to you he won't let something happen to your family.


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Well though my boy is 16 I did come across a find. Baby stuff its put away for someone in need. I just thought at the time that it would find it's way into the hands of parents in need. So, far no parents in need have come by or come to my attention. 

I would have the room, and we could share what we have. I'd do it.


----------



## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Ruby said:


> It's funny how so many on here would turn away a human child but take in stray dogs and cats.


In a SHTF scenario as presented by the OP I highly doubt anyone would be taking in stray dogs and cats.


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

And no dogs or cats were previously mentioned or considered.


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

you bet I'D be taking in stray dogs and cats....muhahaha!

and I'd invite them to dinner too! as a matter of fact...I would INSIST upon it. *evil grin*


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Shrarvrs88 said:


> you bet I'D be taking in stray dogs and cats....muhahaha!
> 
> and I'd invite them to dinner too! as a matter of fact...I would INSIST upon it. *evil grin*


BBQ sauce or Alfredo? or just plain gravy?


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

mmm....can we have all three as dip? lol


----------



## dranger1108 (Aug 7, 2010)

Watching my own child die a slow death of medical issues, I don't think I can turn a child away if it was starving. I couldn't watch a child starve or die cause I didn't do anything to help it. We would care for it to the best of our ability.


----------



## Narshalla (Sep 11, 2008)

wyld thang said:


> But we're not talking about 80,000 children on ones' doorstep, the OP said one(or two or three).
> 
> Every single one of us is at the end of a long line of folks who survived to pass on their genes because someone had mercy to give a piece of bread. Most existence on this planet has been very desperate indeed. You start with ONE. The one that comes to your door. (that's what I believe anyway).
> 
> ...


One or two or three _today_, and a few more next week and a couple more the week after that, and another a week after that . . .

When would you draw the line? Will you say, the first five that come to my door, I'll take them in, but not any after that? The first ten? Thirty (assuming, of course, that you have enough food to feed that many)?


----------



## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

I understand that some may feel that taking in a hungry child may take away from your own child(ren), but think for a minute how it would affect your own child to see you turn a hungry, homeless child away?
Not that I could or would turn away a needy child, but if I did, my own children would be absolutely *devastated!*


----------



## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Most of us insist that we would take in hungry children left on our doorstep, but nobody has as of yet answered the question of how many they would continue to take in. 
*
Does no one draw a line on the number of children they could take care of?* If they keep coming at the rate of 2 to 10 per week, you could have as many as 100 children in as little as 10 weeks. Could you honestly care for that many stray children, especially if many of them were thieves and/or sick & weak? 

I'd like to hear how you would feed them, clothe them, sleeping arrangements, laundry, and other care. I know for a fact that there is no way I could take in that many children. 

I would assume these stray children would be around age 10 and under. I'd guess the majority of them would be infants & pre school ages. Children older than that would probably be out scrounging, stealing, and doing anything they can to survive. I doubt any teens would be left on a doorstep to be cared for by strangers.


----------



## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

Wow, that is a tough question. I have no idea how to answer that, but considering I am moving to a pretty remote location, I doubt there would be very many children showing up on my doorstep.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

dranger1108 said:


> Watching my own child die a slow death of medical issues, I don't think I can turn a child away if it was starving. I couldn't watch a child starve or die cause I didn't do anything to help it. We would care for it to the best of our ability.


That's where the whole life experiences come into affect. Many here know that I have buried 4 children. One I watched as she fought for her life for 2 months before finally succumbing. Like you, I couldn't turn away a child in need.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Spinner said:


> Most of us insist that we would take in hungry children left on our doorstep, but nobody has as of yet answered the question of how many they would continue to take in.
> *
> Does no one draw a line on the number of children they could take care of?* If they keep coming at the rate of 2 to 10 per week, you could have as many as 100 children in as little as 10 weeks. Could you honestly care for that many stray children, especially if many of them were thieves and/or sick & weak?
> 
> ...


As a Christian I firmly believe that God won't place more on us than we can bear. He knows that I could not turn away a child, so I'm just trusting in Him and the abilities He's blessed me with to be able to take care of however many He sends my way.


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Shrarvrs88 said:


> You have prepped enough for your own family, and maybe a little extra. You are struggling to feed your own children, knowing your stores are only gonna last so long, and winter is coming.
> 
> You find a child (or two or three) knocking at your door. Their parents left a note saying they know you could give those kids a better life...
> 
> ...


Matthew 18:5-7

1 Kings 17 (pay special attention to 12-17)


----------



## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

Shrarvrs88 said:


> you bet I'D be taking in stray dogs and cats....muhahaha!
> 
> and I'd invite them to dinner too! as a matter of fact...I would INSIST upon it. *evil grin*


I would too. I know some will :bash: people for saying it. But I would eat cats, dogs, horses, anything, before letting children starve.


----------



## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

shanzone2001 said:


> I understand that some may feel that taking in a hungry child may take away from your own child(ren), but think for a minute how it would affect your own child to see you turn a hungry, homeless child away?
> Not that I could or would turn away a needy child, but if I did, my own children would be absolutely *devastated!*


So would mine.


----------



## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

Spinner said:


> Most of us insist that we would take in hungry children left on our doorstep, but nobody has as of yet answered the question of how many they would continue to take in.
> *
> Does no one draw a line on the number of children they could take care of?* If they keep coming at the rate of 2 to 10 per week, you could have as many as 100 children in as little as 10 weeks. Could you honestly care for that many stray children, especially if many of them were thieves and/or sick & weak?
> 
> ...


I would do what I could with what I had. Why worry about tomorrow when you are not promised today?
You do what you have to do because if you were to do anything else, you might as well be dead already.


----------



## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

I refrained from answering this until I could think about it. I didn't want to feel pressured to jump on the "all the children in the world" bandwagon here.

I think no one here is addressing the "how" and "why" the children are there. What SHTF happened? And how and why the children are randomly being placed at your doorstep is important and does make a difference. So I think looking at times when this has happened in history is a good start. Germany, soviet union, occupied france all left good records.

If we're talking the slow decrease in the ability of a family to care for it's own with a nose diving economy, less social services and families running out of options on how to get help for their kids, that is one thing. 

Either way, if they're winding up at your door specifically, then you're not likely to keep your own preps for long because your condition is now known. I would call that a serious failure of OPSEC there. BUT, for the sake of the thread, let's just say they weren't targeted to your home specifically, but left at a church, school or hospital.

If we're talking about a pandemic and all the infrastructure people rely on to care for their families falling kaput due to it (by that I mean grocery chains, medical, school..etc) then that is something different.

In the case of the former, which is one I think is more likely, you're going to have good people and bad people. Bad people aren't going to be more worried about their children than themselves. Good people are. You're more likely to find a child with a note pinned to them and a bundle of goods from a good person who just wants their child to live.

Bad people will show up with the child or come and "find" the child at some later point. That is their in with you and that is dangerous.

In that situation, if there are children being found in large numbers (because they are now!) with a note pinned to them a bundle of their favorite things at central points, I would certainly take as many in as I could keep safe. But the kicker is that I would choose them. Not because I want a specific kid or whatever, but because I can take care of more of them better if I choose correctly the age and sex groupings. For every infant, one child above 8 to help watch them...etc. But only if they were anonymously dropped and only if the parent had no way of knowing where they wound up. 

Otherwise, consider this. For those who say every kid dropped at their door is welcome, first you would have a rush of kids and then you would never sleep again. For every one of those kids you could have a parent (or just the grown up who used the kid as bait) watching and waiting. 

In the second case...no way. I don't have the ability to operate a quarantine facility. How would I do that? How would I care for the ill and potentially ill and then NOT come back and infect or potentially infect my family? How do I take care of an infant that may have whatever disease has set the world to tumbling and still take care of our infant? 

I think there are a lot of rosy thoughts here but I don't think they are necessarily true. There have been many threads on taking in "other folks" and in each case most people have recognized that using children to get in is a likely situation and one that is ripe to end up with us dead. If some illness has been sufficiently bad to wipe out the social services and other avenues for people so completely that they are dumping children unattended at my door, then there is no way I'm opening that door to let the disease in to kill my own family.

If it is a matter of needs, in that situation, then there should be PLENTY of goods and scavenge around for the parents to feed their children with and no need to dump them off unless they are sick themselves and need to find a home for the kids before they die. In which case, there is again no way I'd open the door to them.

Listen, I love kids and wanted more than the duggars but I won't kill the ones I have for strangers. 

As for the messed up-ness of kids, yes. But you are talking about kids who are winding up in the system today and were made that way in normal times. I don't think we can simply assume that every middle class child that might get dropped off because their family is going down the tubes with everything else is going to be some sort of monster.

That is very unrealistic. I doubt very much they are going to just drop off the kids in the worst group home in the city on your doorstep. And yes, I was a messed up kid too and I did get over it (for the most part) so know whereof I speak. 

Of course, I hope none of this ever happens and doubt it would every come to a line of kids at anyone's specific door. It does bring up a good point. All the people here claiming that they would take in all of them....are you currently doing so? There is a great need for foster homes in most parts of the US. I think it a bit disingenuous to claim you would do this thing but not actually be doing it though the need is there now.


----------



## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

I've done foster care in the past. It wasn't the children that put me off continuing to do foster care. It was the social workers and the fact that many times I felt they were being more destructive to the children and their families than helpful.


----------



## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

I 'would' take in a kid or two right now..today! But I do not meet the requirements necessary for the state or for adoptions agencies. Sigh... and I wouldn't want to jump through those horrible hoops even if I did.


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

ChristyACB said:


> Of course, I hope none of this ever happens and doubt it would every come to a line of kids at anyone's specific door. It does bring up a good point. All the people here claiming that they would take in all of them....are you currently doing so? There is a great need for foster homes in most parts of the US. I think it a bit disingenuous to claim you would do this thing but not actually be doing it though the need is there now.


This is a great point... but in others' defense...the regulations on bedroom size, window size, visitation with dirt bag parents, fire marshall inspection...its not easy to meet the physical requirements let alone the mental and background issues...its a huge commitment that is not ROSY at all...(well maybe on the day parental rights are terminated and on the day adoption is finalized) but its years to the finish.
Happy with the one I've got and grateful to be done with the "social services system" that is just as dysfunctional as the families the kids come from.

And I'll add that even today's "good, caring pin the note to the shirt" parents have not raised a kid that is used to the level of work and responsibility necessary to live post grid failure...How many 10 yo's do you know can chop wood, fetch water, feed a wood stove, feed/milk animals, cut grass and brush for animals....cook dinner...be happy w/o television....or eat plain oatmeal?


----------



## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

mpillow said:


> This is a great point... but in others' defense...the regulations on bedroom size, window size, visitation with dirt bag parents, fire marshall inspection...its not easy to meet the physical requirements let alone the mental and background issues...its a huge commitment that is not ROSY at all...(well maybe on the day parental rights are terminated and on the day adoption is finalized) but its years to the finish.
> Happy with the one I've got and grateful to be done with the "social services system" that is just as dysfunctional as the families the kids come from.
> 
> _And I'll add that even today's "good, caring pin the note to the shirt" parents have not raised a kid that is used to the level of work and responsibility necessary to live post grid failure...How many 10 yo's do you know can chop wood, fetch water, feed a wood stove, feed/milk animals, cut grass and brush for animals....cook dinner...be happy w/o television....or eat plain oatmeal?_


I don't there is a high percentage that could. But look at it realistically. Even 100 years ago, how many kids raised in a city knew how to do that? And those skills can be taught, they aren't a deficiency in character. We all learned at some point...most of us as adults here on the board.


----------



## secretcreek (Jan 24, 2010)

mpillow said:


> This is a great point... but in others' defense...the regulations on bedroom size, window size, visitation with dirt bag parents, fire marshall inspection...its not easy to meet the physical requirements let alone the mental and background issues...its a huge commitment that is not ROSY at all...(well maybe on the day parental rights are terminated and on the day adoption is finalized) but its years to the finish.
> Happy with the one I've got and grateful to be done with the "social services system" that is just as dysfunctional as the families the kids come from.
> 
> And I'll add that even today's "good, caring pin the note to the shirt" parents have not raised a kid that is used to the level of work and responsibility necessary to live post grid failure...How many 10 yo's do you know can chop wood, fetch water, feed a wood stove, feed/milk animals, cut grass and brush for animals....cook dinner...be happy w/o television....or eat plain oatmeal?


I'm of the opinion that it's the typical, urban, "normal kids" who will be the ones who hurt the most, be lost at first...if abandoned/orphaned. They may not have ever experienced a survival situation like hurting children have that drives them to look out for number one's needs. Typical "normal" kids think life is all about: chicken nuggets or cheese pizza,X-box or Wii and Disney movies if under 12...and it's all about cellphones, and social network whining and posturing after age 12... Reality of a SHTF will throw them into shock and fear. I work with kids like this all the time in my church congregation to get to accept new and different flavors, situations where they think of others needs, and learn to think "really think"... they learn quick, but some really, really balk at change that's not normal cool for them. The messed up kids are the super quick thinkers and very oportunistic "feeders" so to speak...because life dictated they learn that to survive early on. They'll eat anything-even your left overs on your plate, and love clothes that are new to them-from the thrift shops. Life experiences of those things place them way ahead than the "normal" American child. 

I'm just glad my own young adult kids know how to hand milk, chop wood, make a fire, camp primitive, had exposure to basic medicinal herb knowledge... can forage a few wild edibles, learned gun safety and can (do ) hunt, mend clothing, basic car machanics, chain saw experience, tractor experience... Those giant toned thumbs honed from years of video gaming will make great "hole pokers" to drop seeds down into the soil of a victory garden, eh? :happy0035:

-scrt crk


----------



## bigfoot2you (Oct 3, 2007)

hintonlady said:


> My opinion will probably be met with scorn.
> 
> I would not take them in under any circumstances that lead to my family becoming lean. I would also be gentle as possible and not leave them to wander in fear to eventually starve. This is the same for my own children, I would never allow them to suffer slowly and agonizingly should there be zero other options. Draw whatever conclusions you wish.
> 
> ...


YUP What she said exactly!! I would have a very, very hard time saying no to children.......but...........


----------



## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

I am curious why some people are willing to accept a potential threat when it comes in child form but would be quick to turn away an adult?

With my rudimentary bible knowledge I realize one is supposed to help widows and orphans or whatever but what about weary travelers, aren't all desperate types pretty much covered in the kindness "biblical clause" depending on where you look...even go so far as love thy neighbor etc. I guess the point is that we are supposed to help anyone, right?

I am just havig a hard time understanding what I feel is a sort of disconnect between and adult pointing a weapon at your child or another child "pointing starvation" at your child. Both are a threat to life regardless of how they come packaged, cute and pitiful or big and burly.

A threat is a threat is a threat, at least in my book. 

Not trying to antagonize, I really truly don't understand why kids are exempt with the exception of one simple truth, they have no means to help themselves. BUT that complicates it because many adults are helpless too, some from choice some from lack of exposure or understanding.

Is taking a kid in different than taking in an elderly person or a person in a wheel chair?

Mostly I am confused by opinions on this thread.

BTW, I am not cold hearted, today I would be happy to take in any of my firends kids, extended families kids or abandoned kids with no dangerous emotional issues. I would take in a dozen, today. After a meltdown of the grid...well, you already know how I feel about that.


It is a great honor when Chuck can visit a thread especially considering his work load. I can only imagine what our little world in here must look like when his world IRL is as it is... I also can't help but wonder something. If he had handed the mother with the baby in the church a can of formula would she share it with a child abandoned at her door? After seeing her in a church feeding her baby dirty water would any of us fault her, even for a moment, if she refused to share her can of formula with a stranger?

Imagine for a minute that when thses kids show up at your door that you are already hungry, emaciated and eating crumbs. Few if any of us are hungry right now.


----------



## susieM (Apr 23, 2006)

Any kids that come to my door during hard times will be cooked and eaten.


----------



## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

susieM said:


> Any kids that come to my door during hard times will be cooked and eaten.


I don't know if you were serious or kidding, either way your brazen attitude cracked me up.


----------



## bigfoot2you (Oct 3, 2007)

susieM said:


> Any kids that come to my door during hard times will be cooked and eaten.


:shocked::run:


----------



## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Narshalla said:


> One or two or three _today_, and a few more next week and a couple more the week after that, and another a week after that . . .
> 
> When would you draw the line? Will you say, the first five that come to my door, I'll take them in, but not any after that? The first ten? Thirty (assuming, of course, that you have enough food to feed that many)?


it's called community (or *village*)


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2011)

160 posts in a thread that's not quite twenty four hours old yet. Must have touched a nerve!

This scenario is one of my apparently not-so-private nightmares. 

I know what the arithmetic says about X number of calories in total divided among X number of mouths needing X amount of nutrition per day.

I know the risks of bringing in unknowns. 

I know what cold logic says.

I know all of that. I've taught it to more than a few over the years.

But I also know that every night I've got to lay down to sleep sometime and I'd prefer not to have to be drunk to do it. I also know that my own children would ask "Daddy, why did you send those children away?" 

So, in a nutshell I don't have a good answer to that question. In this I'm going to go with what Cyngbaeld said:



Cyngbaeld said:


> It would be hard to make a firm decision, not knowing all the circumstances ahead of time, but I'd be inclined to do what I could for children.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

hintonlady said:


> I am curious why some people are willing to accept a potential threat when it comes in child form but would be quick to turn away an adult?
> 
> With my rudimentary bible knowledge I realize one is supposed to help widows and orphans or whatever but what about weary travelers, aren't all desperate types pretty much covered in the kindness "biblical clause" depending on where you look...even go so far as love thy neighbor etc. I guess the point is that we are supposed to help anyone, right?
> 
> ...


The OP was about taking in children, not adults. I feel better able to cope with children. I'm not a big woman and most adults could easily overpower me, BUT, if an adult needed help, one that was disabled etc, I would probably have a hard time turning them away too. We've already made arrangements to help out our elderly neighbors in a worse case scenario. He's disabled due to a plane wreck a few years back. She's up in years, but is willing to help with the chores.

Most adults are able to fend for themselves, some of them just need to be put in a situation that forces them to do so. Most kids are not able to fend for themselves. Guess that's why I would more readily take in a child than an adult. But as I've stated earlier, I believe God will send who he will. If he sends them, he'll give us the means to do what needs to be done.


----------



## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Sonshine said:


> The OP was about taking in children, not adults.


Yes, it certainly was. I just see them as so closely related that it's hard for me to envision one scenario without thinking of the other. For myself taking in one group is identical to taking in the other which is why I wanted to point out to others that danger comes in many forms. Just food for thought.

I think it is very sweet of you to consider the elderly couple BEFORE a shtf scenario. You are "putting your money where your mouth is" IRL, the only place it really matters. I am sure you are a wonderful neighbor.

FWIW, I am a huge softy and have to wear a crusty exterior to survive. I have had various animals and yes, people follow me home since I was a youngster. It gets expensive, mostly in very hurt and betrayed feelings, when a mouth you feed bites you. *sigh* I know many people may doubt this about me. I worked very hard to get this jaded, lol. 

Maybe God has a different plan for me and it can all be just that simple.:goodjob:


----------



## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

Personally, I think it all comes down to your personal goals. Is your goal to survive as long as you can at any cost, willing to trade in your humanity and become like an animal in wild? Is your goal to survive as long as possible with your humanity intact willing to accept death when it comes prepared to meet your maker? Each of us makes our own decisions. In the dark times, our actions show who we really are.


----------



## dranger1108 (Aug 7, 2010)

ChristyACB said:


> Of course, I hope none of this ever happens and doubt it would every come to a line of kids at anyone's specific door. It does bring up a good point. All the people here claiming that they would take in all of them....are you currently doing so? There is a great need for foster homes in most parts of the US. I think it a bit disingenuous to claim you would do this thing but not actually be doing it though the need is there now.


I would love to be a foster parent, but since I live in a fixer upper and have "too" many pets I would never pass at being a foster parent. 
But here in my small town it's ok to leave kids in this
open cans, rotten food, maggets in the sink.. and not a clean dish to be had.

They have had the cops to their house several times for the school calling, for the baby getting out in winter wandering the street in a diaper. Child welfare has been to their has several times and yet the house is still like this. And the kids are still in this mess. I unfortunally babysit for this family - I try to be a positive influence to the kids, that are 1,3,6, and 8.
If SHTF I would take the kids in, but I wouldn't and couldn't if the parents came with. The parents have other issues that I couldn't bring into my house.
:grit: Unfortunally the system sucks.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Looks like my house today. We've been stepping over 50 pound bags of rice for days while I wait on some more bins to arrive. Hope nobody calls CPS on me. 

Since you're so willing to post pictures of someone else's messy house, why don't you take your meddling self over there and help them clean it up? If the babysitter took pictures of the inside of my house and posted them on the internet in a call for the government to take my children away, there would be hell to pay.


----------



## Chuck (Oct 27, 2003)

Well, I don't know, Ernie. That house is over-the-top. I've seen indigenous tribes living in dirt-floored huts made of camel dung that were living cleaner than that. Those pics are a sign of some serious mental disorder.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

hintonlady said:


> Yes, it certainly was. I just see them as so closely related that it's hard for me to envision one scenario without thinking of the other. For myself taking in one group is identical to taking in the other which is why I wanted to point out to others that danger comes in many forms. Just food for thought.
> 
> I think it is very sweet of you to consider the elderly couple BEFORE a shtf scenario. You are "putting your money where your mouth is" IRL, the only place it really matters. I am sure you are a wonderful neighbor.
> 
> ...


I think you hit the nail on the head there. God has called each of us for different purposes. Those he has called to take in others firmly believe he'll make a way for us to do so. Each of us has to follow our hearts, or in the case of Christians, the direction the Lord leads. Like you, I've been burned numerous times and I almost gave up on people in general, but God reminded me that except for his grace, there goes I. I think another thing that makes a difference in my way of thinking is that I have known a great deal of suffering in this life. To me, as Paul stated in the Bible, to die is to gain. Fear is just a passage to me. If for whatever reason we find that our supplies are gone and there's no way to forage or raise enough food to feed us, then I believe it's time for me and mine to go Home to be with the Lord, which in reality will be our ultimate goal anyways. As long as the Lord leaves me on this earth, I feel I need to help out in anyway he directs me to and trust in him to provide the means to do so. Hope that makes sense.


----------



## Narshalla (Sep 11, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Looks like my house today. We've been stepping over 50 pound bags of rice for days while I wait on some more bins to arrive. Hope nobody calls CPS on me.
> 
> Since you're so willing to post pictures of someone else's messy house, why don't you take your meddling self over there and help them clean it up? If the babysitter took pictures of the inside of my house and posted them on the internet in a call for the government to take my children away, there would be hell to pay.


She posted pictures of a hoarders' house. (And not even a very messy one, by hoarding standards.)

I'd explain it, but you are normal, so you would have difficulty understanding and probably wouldn't believe me.

However, if you look up "Hoarders" on A&E -- here is the link -- you will get some level of understanding of the problem, though if you, like me, have never dealt with the problem firsthand, then it's still hard to grasp.

But this is rather a :hijacked: line of discussion, and there are several thread on hoarding already.


----------



## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

In 1926 my GM died. 2 girls ages 6 and 2 were left with just a father with no family on his side near by. His wife's own mother had died very young leaveing young children. My Grandfather 's father inlaws spinter sister stepped up to the plate.
A lady who is only known as "Great Aunt Helen" by my mother stopped the world to raise mom and her sister. The plan was set My GF would move into Helen's paid for home she had inherited. GF would return to his trade as a traveling steam pipefitter building hospitals. They did not hide the plan. Catholic Socail Services got involed - moral issues unmarried man and woman shacking in up. Mom and Sis went to an orphanage for 2 years. Great A Helen fought and got fully custody of mom and sis and adopted the girls. GFwas out of the picture (away working and he kept a low profile in order for GAH to get the girls). It worked. GF was only pretending for years to be out of the picture and just "visiting" between jobs.

In 1930 a knock at the door and appeared on Helens doorstep was a man and a 9 year old girl. The man claimed that he was in CA and had married my GM's sister and she had died (history repeated). The man asked that the Girl (known only as Cousin Nelly) stay with Helen while he looked for work. So, now there were 3 girls in the house. Nelly never saw her father again. For some reason -lost thru the years Nelly did not give or know her true last name. She was never adopted, no reports made, no reach out for help from any Goverment or social group. Nelly was given Helen's last name and that was it.

End result 3 girls safe. GF worked for cash Helen in time worked For ATT as an operator. Was it hard yes, What mom told me is that Helen found girls in the neighborhood to match the girls. The playmates had a normal for the day -Stay at home mom who listened in and reported to helen any issues that the girls had in adjusting that was glean thur interation with playmates. Helen knew and later in life shared with mom that though she loved the girls and felt like their mother she knew that it would be hard for these girls to adjust if she replace their birth mom in all ways. She let the girls develope the level of relationship. Mom was the closest, next her sister Nelly kept her distance but still functioned in the family it was wondered if comming in last with out a mate made the separation. 

Knowing what it meant to my mom is why I would do it. Mom just died in Nov. of last year still gratefull to GREAT AUNT HELEN. Someone who did not have to step up to the plate but did. repeatedly. There is one photo -missing- of Helen changing my diaper. I could not find it and that I regrete.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Yeah, that house is a mess. And the people probably need some help.

But how would you feel if your BABYSITTER was sneaking around your house, taking pictures, and then posting them on the internet while calling for Child Protective Services to come take your children? Trying to solicit support for their actions on internet forums? 

While we're at it, did the poster find any stashed food, weapons, or precious metals? How about an address?

For heaven's sakes, the KIDS are visible in one of the photos. Do you think their parents gave permission for their photos to be pasted on the internet?

This poster is someone that the family TRUSTS, and he/she just stabbed them in the back and endangered them as a family unit. How would any of you like to have a person like that in your life? I think I know what most of you would do if you found out that someone had just done this to you. Can you honestly condone it being done to someone else?


----------



## dranger1108 (Aug 7, 2010)

Ernie said:


> Looks like my house today. We've been stepping over 50 pound bags of rice for days while I wait on some more bins to arrive. Hope nobody calls CPS on me.
> 
> Since you're so willing to post pictures of someone else's messy house, why don't you take your meddling self over there and help them clean it up? If the babysitter took pictures of the inside of my house and posted them on the internet in a call for the government to take my children away, there would be hell to pay.


Ernie, does your house have month old ----ty diapers on your floor? are there maggots and flies living in your sink? is your wife's used maxi pads and douchs products on the floor of your bathroom that your kid uses? Has your kids gone to the hospital four times for worms because your 2 year old eats dirty cat litter?
I have helped clean it up several times, but when you spend all day cleaning the crap and to only go there again and it's worst it's a slap to your face.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

dranger1108 said:


> Ernie, does your house have month old ----ty diapers on your floor? are there maggots and flies living in your sink? is your wife's used maxi pads and douchs products on the floor of your bathroom that your kid uses? Has your kids gone to the hospital four times for worms because your 2 year old eats dirty cat litter?
> I have helped clean it up several times, but when you spend all day cleaning the crap and to only go there again and it's worst it's a slap to your face.


We only have your word that any of that is going on, and you've just shown us all how trustworthy you are. 

I'm going to walk away from this issue now. Family privacy being invaded by meddling busybodies is something that gets under my skin REALLY fast. I hope I don't know you.


----------



## Narshalla (Sep 11, 2008)

wyld thang said:


> it's called community (or *village*)


Okay, I understand that. Well, you have twenty families in your village, with the average family size of four, so eighty people -- only half of which are adults.

How many children could your village take in? You have forty adults to parent the new children, assuming that every adult is emotionally capable of giving the care necessary to a traumatized young child (many aren't emotionally set up to take care of children that aren't theirs, or at least family.)

Also, this is assuming that all of them are physically capable, too -- a nursing woman has enough on her plate, taking in a two-year-old and integrating him/her into the household requires a lot of time and effort that she may not have. Another infant would be less physical work and less emotional work, provided that she is emotionally capable and had enough milk, and not all women are emotionally capable of feeding another woman's child, especially one that the mother has abandoned but might return to claim again.

So assuming all the stars are aligned perfectly, how many children could such a village take in? One hundred? Two hundred? Once people found out that they were taking in children, the maximum number would be reached in no time at all.

What's more, if you have enough for the children, then you have enough for the parents, too, don't you? Because very, very soon, you will find adults on your doorstep, demanding (not asking) their share of your food, too.

And as has been mentioned, it is entirely possible that the parents would leave the children so that the kids could unlock the doors some time later and let the parents in. I'd be worried about this with any child older than about six -- they'd probably be capable, and their emotional attachment to their parents would virtually guarantee that they'd do what their parents said.

Any child younger than six, meanwhile, would require a level of care and supervision that could very possibly take you away from the tasks you need to complete to feed and care for that child.

There are many things to think about, and like I said before, I will with my whole heart if God calls me to, but I am fully capable of resisting a guilt trip by man. And yes, I could sleep with myself afterwards.


----------



## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Narshalla said:


> Okay, I understand that. Well, you have twenty families in your village, with the average family size of four, so eighty people -- only half of which are adults.
> 
> How many children could your village take in? You have forty adults to parent the new children, assuming that every adult is emotionally capable of giving the care necessary to a traumatized young child (many aren't emotionally set up to take care of children that aren't theirs, or at least family.)
> 
> ...


I have a lot of things to say on this, but I really can't go there here, it would be just too "rude" or brazen or something. Sorry. K then, you "win"  Guilt free, no calorie too!


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Well, maybe I should go back to the dentist's chair. Seems as if good fun (ha) was had while I was away.

I'm glad some self editing was done by some poster's. Thank you.

Now - everyone, please take a deep breath. Breathe......
This is a deep subject for the possible future, and obviously the current timeframe.


----------



## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

wyld thang said:


> I have a lot of things to say on this, but I really can't go there here, it would be just too "rude" or brazen or something. Sorry. K then, you "win"  Guilt free, no calorie too!


Wyldthang, if I, of all people can play nice surely you can one up me on it?

My memory doesn't serve me well enough to know who has posted what and where in this thread but that single post, in and of itself seemed like interesting points. 

Maybe percieved differently when on the other side of the fence but I think that in a nutshell the question remains:

Where does one draw the line? 

*Never draw the line and die to support that?
*A couple kids and let the rest starve?
*A dozen kids and then build a moat?


As politely as possible I would like to add...

Those of you who would take in children would watch your own kids starve to death knowing the extra kids were the reason? Wouldn't your kids then do the opposite of wondering why you sent kids away and instead wonder why you gave their food to someone else? That second question is the one that would make it hard for me to sleep at night.

Sometimes life or God gives you the the option to choose the lessor of the evils. I'm thinking that in this situation no one would be sleeping well or happy about things they have to do. Some people would hate butchering for themselves. We all have different conditioning.


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2011)

hintonlady said:


> Those of you who would take in children would watch your own kids starve to death knowing the extra kids were the reason?


 I haven't read this entire thread and I'm not going to so I'm going to ask did anyone actually say they would do such a thing or are you inferring it?

The circumstances of the scenario have everything to do with the way I would respond to it.

Until some specific circumstances are laid out there can be no definite answer.

This entire thread, as overheated as it has become, is just another vague thought exercise to which no specific conclusions can be reached.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

A.T. Hagan said:


> I haven't read this entire thread and I'm not going to so I'm going to ask did anyone actually say they would do such a thing or are you inferring it?
> 
> The circumstances of the scenario have everything to do with the way I would respond to it.
> 
> ...


Exactly, it's an exercise. Everyone has to search their own hearts to determine what they would do in any given circumstances. What might be the right thing for some to do, may not be for others. It seems some of this has turned into a judging contest. How can we judge anyone for what they may or may not do in this situation?


----------



## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

Hintonlady.
I asked my kids the original question. I asked them what they would want us to do. I told them the situation regarding food, and possible problems.

They all answered that there is no way they would want us to turn away a child. 

"What if it were us looking for food and shelter?" one of them said. 

I told them it might mean we would run out of food and would starve sooner.

They answered that rather that then become someone they would not like.


----------



## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. We are all different. Some of us can live with some things others can't. Some are stronger, some are weaker.

I hope we never have to find out. 

I hope that those of you that have read this thread, and think of the children that are hungry, will look around to those that are living in such conditions today, and dig deep into your pockets to help them.


----------



## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

A.T. Hagan said:


> I haven't read this entire thread and I'm not going to so I'm going to ask did anyone actually say they would do such a thing or are you inferring it?
> 
> The circumstances of the scenario have everything to do with the way I would respond to it.
> 
> ...


I am not personally feeling heated, have enjoyed the discussion and am trying to be polite. If I seemed otherwise I am sorry.

I wasn't trying to assume anything about anybody or judge. I am sincerely curious about how the other half thinks. My questions are aimed at learning not provoking. It hoovers for me that people always assume the worst of me. (not saying that YOU are Alan, I am often misunderstood) I'm just one of those people who deeply engages in a conversation and it translates into seeking out deeper and deeper answers. My biggest passion is learning about people and how they tick It's a bane in life because I know it is off putting. I'm just not the type to nod my head, okey dokey and blow someone off because I disagree. I am the type to stay up all night until there is a consensus. It is also why I am cursed to be non religious, no single member of any clergy has had the tenacity to hear out my depth of questioning so I can believe in sincerity because I am not a blind faith type.

Maybe if I didn't get elbow deep into conversations I would seem a lot more polite. *shrug* :hammer:

That being said, I posed the question in question (lol) with a sense of the theme we were going upon, from my recollection of a few individuals statements. I was continuing with an idea built over too many pages to look back upon without being obsessive, IYKWIM. People said they would accept their deaths if it was a part of being led to saving a child...or statements pretty much along those lines. I was just trying to dig deeper to see if that meant also allowing their children to die at the expense of saving others.

I agree that with such loose understanding of the scenario at hand it is hard to know what one would do and even harder to understand others motivations.

Clearly I have expressed my point but even in doing so I have learned something in here and *gasp* allowed those with patience to my quearies to change my mind about a few very serious matters that are not thread related. Along the way I have grown, probably not in ways anyone but myself can recognize. This heated thread that I saw as educational has served to confuse me about where I stand so in a sense those on the other side have won, fair and square, no sarcasm. I am almost compelled to change my mind due to some of the things people have said in here. 

I am admitting that I may be wrong, pending further thought and may accept the other sides argument as my own. Yes, stranger things have been known to happen, just not often. I am even maybe possibly kinda considering going to meet a church. JUST because of this hot thread.

On that note I have nothing else to post but would like to thank everyone who continues to humor my crusty side with their infinite patience, you too Alan. Most of this is not aimed specifically toward you but I owe you for opening the door to me trying to demystify myself to others and maybe help them see that I am not just the screen name to roll eyes at.

I am just a passionate person and cyberspace does not generally convey my true nature very well.:banana02:

I'm going to walk away from further posts in here because I truly have nothing left to offer, may not have had anything to begin with. True to my style I must make a joke, take it or leave it. :banana02:

***WARNING, totally lame and possibly offensive joke to follow***

Why on earth would I want more kids, I can't get rid of the ones I already have?

(It was a JOKE, don't roast me, I LOVE my kids)


----------



## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

LOL. Your joke was a good one HL. 

I can feel that way sometimes when I am in the middle of enjoying a bubble bath and every few mins someone knocks on the door to ask me a question. Argh! 

Peace and quiet is not for parents.


----------



## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

Our Little Farm said:


> I hope that those of you that have read this thread, and think of the children that are hungry, will look around to those that are living in such conditions today, and dig deep into your pockets to help them.


I lied about that last post being my last.

I kept wondering all night (don't sleep much, even without doing evil, lol) about how folks know they are being called to do something...how you can feel it and know the difference.

As a trying to be a good person (maybe even edging of the potential of being a Christian person) I have felt a calling all day since Chucks post.

Including this post I am going to gather $5 per post in this thread. I can't stop thinking about that womans baby with the dirty water. It may be too late for that baby but maybe there is another...

I challenge, dare and hope some of you can dig deep, even a couple dimes and nickels if you have it. Lets all band as a village to see what we can come up with, in these shtf times and feed one baby as much as we can.

I trust Chuck is a good Christian and human being. I trust he can pick a worthy, hungry baby and maybe we can buy a good stock of formula. I am sure American dollars amount to a good bit where he is. Let us all share our blessings and feed a baby.

Maybe if we are lucky and God is willing our village can adopt this kid for even longer...

If I'm not mistaken I just volunteered $65. Anonymous donation are probably just as good too. I just want to get the ball rolling.

Perhaps Angie can facilitate something with Chuck so we can donate to him directly to keep it all honest.

Who is with me? I know you have to have like .50 and a stamp, please?


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

hintonlady - if this goes anywhere, there is an ophanage down where Chuck is - that is where things should go - we can get that name, I think they may have a email or something. I do know he's traveled other places recently (in Mexico), so one of those other places may be where that baby was.

I'll see if he can give information and each can do as they have the ability and inclination.


----------



## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

As others have said, it's not an easy question to answer, and (seriously) NO ONE can say what they'd do, because none of us have been in that situation. It's all well and good to speculate, tell others how strong you'd be (or how weak) or state that you'd do the unthinkable rather than put your own child in danger, but the fact remains that it's all speculation, and the likelihood of your ever being called on to abide by any decision made now is pretty slim.

Having said all that, I will admit that I adore my children and would do, literally, anything to ensure their survival -- but again, qualified by the life we have led up until now and the challenges we've faced so far. I know, for a FACT, that I can't stand to see a child (ANY child) go hungry, and I would be hard pressed to turn them away. I also know, for a FACT, that given my life up until now, and the challenges I've faced during the time I've spent on this earth, I'd rather lose my life than my humanity.


----------



## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

If starving kids showed up at my door in present society; I would give them food, find out their story and what happened to their parents? Then I would call the authorites as where I live we could be charged with kid napping if we kept abandoned kids. My own mother was left in a basket on a doorstep. The couple kept her and raised her. She in turn had no problem walking away from my sisters and me. 

Times and laws have changed and you just can't keep a baby or kids without doing it legally even if the child is a relative. Someone has to have legal guardianship.In an emergency situation one could get in hot water too if the parents said you stoled their child.It would be better to take in the parents also.

As for sharing food ofcourse we would until it was all gone. No sense hoarding as people will find out and steal it anyway. I believe God intended people to look out for eachother and will provide a way if we freely share what we have.


----------



## lmrose (Sep 24, 2009)

Can you imagine looking like a well fed family while all those around you are starving? You would be sitting ducks because everyone would raid your home to find that stash of food you must certainly have!


----------



## Chuck (Oct 27, 2003)

Thank you, Hintonlady, that is a very generous offer. I have been thinking about that baby since we saw her last Sunday, and wondering how she is. 

We provided for milk for that baby, and several others we've come across in recent weeks. The village of San Jose sits in a floodplain out in the desert near where we live, and about a hundred families live there. When hurricane Jimena hit last year, the village was completely flooded out and most people lost everything. It is still recovering.

During a medical clinic where my wife and kids were acting as translators last week, they came across dozens of women each day who do not have milk for their babies, and more than a few who have no food at all. Each morning in Guaymas a long line of these women forms at the social security office, where the government hands out some food and formula each day. Most days only a few dozen get fed - the rest go back home hungry. I gave one lady a ride the other day who had been three days in a row, but because she lived far out of town, she and her 2-year-old had yet to get there before the food ran out. 

All that to say, there is a tremendous need here. If anyone would like to donate, send the money to me via paypal ([email protected]) and I will make a video of the families we touch with your generosity, and post the story here on HT. If you'd like your donation to remain anonymous, that's fine too. 

Mailing won't work, as we'll be heading back to the states next week after nearly three months in Mexico. So make it quick and we can help some desperately needy people here, and you can see exactly where every penny goes.

Cheers,

Chuck


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

thank you Chuck.

Hintonlady started a separate thread about this - You've posted there, also.

I have stickied that thread just for the help of child/ren.
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=385040
(has same post from Chuck on it.)

Angie


----------



## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

> All the people here claiming that they would take in all of them....are you currently doing so? There is a great need for foster homes in most parts of the US. _I think it a bit disingenuous to claim you would do this thing but not actually be doing it though the need is there now._


You have great points.....
I do not drive around all day long, looking for disabled vehicles, with occupants in need. However, when someone is on the side of the road, I stop and ask if I can help, or make a phone call for them. It makes me no less genuine in the moment, that I am trying to help, because I do not make it my mission every moment of my life.

That's the way I took the OP. "If" the opportunity presented itself, how would I react. Did I read the OP wrong?


----------



## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

It is very easy for all of us to hypothetically say that we would or would not do something. As you all know, my family saw a need in society and went through a lot to try to help children. In the 5 years we did foster care we feel we did a lot of good. I wouldn't trade those years for anything. 

It is a good exercise to discuss issues like this before they happen so we can mentally prepare ourselves to deal with them. In spite of my earlier comments, I love children and it would kill me to turn a child away. On the other hand, I think we should be wise in our approach to who we help in such a scenario. On the other hand, how do we discern between a person who will be harmful and one who won't. I think like others have said, we all have to search within ourselves and decide what we can and can't handle.


----------



## Narshalla (Sep 11, 2008)

wyld thang said:


> I have a lot of things to say on this, but I really can't go there here, it would be just too "rude" or brazen or something. Sorry. K then, you "win"  Guilt free, no calorie too!


This isn't a contest, I was just wondering if you would ever draw the line and say, "No, enough, I can't take more. It simply can't be done."


----------



## stormaq (Oct 26, 2008)

I would certainly take them in, I can always add extra water to the soup or beans. If they are old enough to follow rules & will not obey, then they're out.

When my DH's grandmother was questioned about mental illness during the teen's, 20's & 30's, her reply was " Honey there waren't no mental illness, working in a field, hoeing from sun up to sun down, you were just plain too tired to have mental illness".

A couple of years ago DH spoke with a professor from OSU. She said that almost all forms of mental illness, dramatically improves (and in many cases is cured) by old fashioned outdoor manual labor.


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2011)

Shrarvrs88 said:


> You have prepped enough for your own family, and maybe a little extra. You are struggling to feed your own children, knowing your stores are only gonna last so long, and winter is coming.
> 
> You find a child (or two or three) knocking at your door. Their parents left a note saying they know you could give those kids a better life...
> 
> ...





Ernie said:


> I have to imagine that if a starving child makes it to my doorstep then he was probably guided there by God for me to take care of.





godsgirl said:


> I can not imagine not feeding them. THAT IS NOT AN OPTION ! If the Lord places a child in need in my life and I refuse to take care of that child I would never beable to live with myself.


Since it IS my calling to take care of children, I would know God sent the child(ren), and yes I would take them. God would provide a way to feed them, as He has already done so many times.



Sunbee said:


> Seems to me that it's more likely that you'd see kids who came from a healthy family before collapse than a messed up one. People who aren't taking care of their kids before don't seem likely to me to take them to someone else after.


I agree.


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2011)

Sonshine said:


> As a Christian I firmly believe that God won't place more on us than we can bear. He knows that I could not turn away a child, so I'm just trusting in Him and the abilities He's blessed me with to be able to take care of however many He sends my way.


Amen.



ChristyACB said:


> All the people here claiming that they would take in all of them....are you currently doing so? There is a great need for foster homes in most parts of the US. I think it a bit disingenuous to claim you would do this thing but not actually be doing it though the need is there now.


I would love to, but would NEVER qualify according to the standards set by CPS.

Furthermore, it wouldn't be fair to a child to even try to take one in, in my particular circumstances (obviously it would be a different situation if society collapsed).



Our Little Farm said:


> I hope that those of you that have read this thread, and think of the children that are hungry, will look around to those that are living in such conditions today, and dig deep into your pockets to help them.


This is exactly why I do the extreme couponing thing, it's how I feed the children God puts in my path to feed.


----------



## hintonlady (Apr 22, 2007)

I was wrong, I stand corrected.



> There's just something so intoxicating about the smell of my baby's hair. I think that one single thing alone would kill my spirit if I ever had to lay her to rest. Starvation is an ugly ugly way to die.
> 
> Yes, I would take in little vagabounds. I would be scared, I would quarantine them, I would keep an extra eye on security, I would be even more scared... but kids, hungry kids? It just shouldn't happen. I would take them in because in that moment seeing them would be more intense than fears of the next days meal. I would MAKE a way. My fierce will to survive is stronger than giving up on my kids or any others. Bring me a thousand, I'll put all the little beggars to work. That's 2000 hungry hands pulling weeds!!!


Please see the putting money where my mouth is sticky to find out why.


----------



## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

I have read almost every post in this thread. I'll freely admit that some I had to quit reading because of tear filled eyes. I would have to say that I would readily take in children and trust that God put them in my path for a reason that has not been revealed to me at this time. Frankly, I am seeing my own children out there wandering, looking for food and shelter because something has happened to where I cannot protect them anymore. I hope and pray that we are teaching them enough to get along okay for a short time on their own and I hope and pray that some some kind family would take them in. I have a feeling tonight will be a night when it is hard to fall asleep.


----------



## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

This has been a hard thread for me to read because when I became a Mom, those bonding hormones made me love all children. However, I can't imagine doing anything to jeopardize the well-being of my own child. 

Several posters have mentioned Mother Theresa. Does anyone know if she had problems with emotionally damaged children in her orphanages? I assume that the conditions described here would be universal and affect all races and nationalities, especially if they begin in such young children. If she did encounter these types of children, how did she deal with it?

On one hand, I think it is pointless to dwell on what we would do in situations like these. Talk is cheap when we're on this side of the fan and I don't believe any of us can predict with 100% accuracy how we would react then. Because the events surrounding the situation would have affected us very profoundly also, perhaps changing who we are and how we will react to things.

On the other hand, it is beneficial to think about important questions like these, to try to think of any things we could do now that would better enable us to help others later. For what it's worth, I think that everyone is not called to be a hand. The Bible says that some are hands, some are feet, some are eyes or ears. We each have our own gifts and place within the body. The "eye" might tell a "hand" that they are doing something wrong by reaching out instead of being vigilant, and yet there is need for both activities and each person should do that for which they are uniquely and divinely suited. Some will take in children, others will be called to do other things. It is not at all helpful for us to criticize each other for expressing our unique gifts.


----------



## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

No doubt about it. There is no way I could turn a little child away. If it meant taking in 100, I'd figure out a way or we'd all go down together. 

I sure don't mean that as holier than thou manner or that I'm so great -- I'd be darn scared and I'm pretty sure I would be panicking a little at how we're going to do it. But I have absolutely no doubts that God would honor our willingness to do His will and would provide.

I always think about that we never know who we're helping or what blessings come from a doing for another in grave need. The Bible teaches us that we do "entertain angels unaware". In other words, you never know when one of those little children isn't a little child at all, rather someone sent by God to bless us. Or perhaps God testing us to see if we really would do for another as if it were Him? It's easy to do unto others when in plenty; but in need? It sure would be the ultimate test of our faith since it could mean our own lives!

I figure that if God sends children to us during SHTF, then it's up to Him to provide us with the means to help them. If He sends them, then He _*will*_ do a miracle to help us to help them. 

If the Lord can feed 5,000 adults with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread, then a measly 100 kids hanging out with us should surely be eating pretty good with all this tuna and wheat I have stored! :thumb:


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2011)

Karen said:


> No doubt about it. There is no way I could turn a little child away. If it meant taking in 100, I'd figure out a way or we'd all go down together.
> 
> I sure don't mean that as holier than thou manner or that I'm so great -- I'd be darn scared and I'm pretty sure I would be panicking a little at how we're going to do it. But I have absolutely no doubts that God would honor our willingness to do His will and would provide.
> 
> ...


Ditto and AMEN!!! :angel:


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> I think about Mother Teresa and how she lived in the slums of India and helped the poor..she could have retired and lived an easier life but she chose to keep helping the poor. Now I am no Mother Teresa, but I figure if she could help hundreds, I could help one or two. Even in a very bad time.


I was thinking of her too. I have read several books about her & she did deal with a lot of children & aduls with medical & mental issues. She NEVER refused anyone that needed help.

I could never turn away a child. If God sends them to me, then I will find a way to feed them. If the world gets so bad that people are refusing to help each other & show compassion, then I no longer want to be a part of that world. I know my kids would never allow me to turn away a child. Even if it meant giving up some of their food. I would never want to meet my maker & tell Him that refused to help a child. I would help adults too if need be. I know my grandmothers used to feed the hobos. I guess I can step up to any challange God sends my way. So, if you feel the need to dump a baby or a child, bring them to my house.


----------



## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

Just a few thoughts on the matter....

This is the reason the desert cult has lasted for nearly 2000 years. Group is more important than individual. Saving the children of other believers makes more believers. Which was the point all along. Was the plan to not make the children attend mass? 

A self aware human animal sees famine differently however. They see it as more (food, land, resources) for them after a bit of time. Harshness rules this terrible existence. We currently have an awful lot of resources to share and don't (see Chuck's post.). Lie to yourselves if you must. I try my best to view the world.... With eyes open wide.


----------



## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

So much has been discussed on this thread, but it brings joy to my heart that we are able to help some children, here, today through Chucks paypal account. 

As I said before, if you would help those children in the OP, why not help children that are in need right now? Please Dig deep. 

Chuck's donation paypal account to help RIGHT NOW. [email protected]


----------



## godsgirl (Apr 1, 2007)

Karen said:


> No doubt about it. There is no way I could turn a little child away. If it meant taking in 100, I'd figure out a way or we'd all go down together.
> 
> I sure don't mean that as holier than thou manner or that I'm so great -- I'd be darn scared and I'm pretty sure I would be panicking a little at how we're going to do it. But I have absolutely no doubts that God would honor our willingness to do His will and would provide.
> 
> ...




I couldn't have said it better.


----------



## Hobbes (Apr 1, 2008)

This has been a very though provoking thread, and I really appreciate your sincere and transparent thoughts on the matter. I am reminded of George Muller, who ran the famous orphanages (that still continue today btw) by faith that God would provide.

I have a book in front of me that I am going to read. It is called "Sometimes God Has A Kid's Face" by Bruce Ritter of Covenant House. It is their stories of dealings with street kids and kids that others would not touch. Food for thought.

Being single, I don't have the resources (other people) to take care of a lot, but (with God's help) I would do my best. 

Sometimes, God might deputize someone to be a shepherd for someone else's lambs.

John 21:15 "So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs."


----------



## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

George Mueller was simply amazing in what he did & how he went about it.

I don't know what I would do. WOuld I be giving, or would the selfish man win out.
Sigh, self is always lurking just below my surface demeanor, waiting to be selfish.

This has been a most thought provoking thread, I am glad it has continued on.


----------

