# Sounds bad, 3 shooters



## 7thswan

in san beranardino. Wearing body armor from what is reported.


----------



## Sourdough

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...-san-bernardino-fire-officials-report-20-vict


----------



## Bearfootfarm

7thswan said:


> in san beranardino. Wearing body armor from what is reported.


If you're going to start a thread you should at least provide some information and some credible sources


----------



## nchobbyfarm

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/12/02/as-many-as-20-shot-police-in-standoff-in-san-bernardino-calif/


----------



## Sourdough

At least 12 dead.


----------



## Lisa in WA

This is horrible. Praying for the people involved.


----------



## Laura Zone 5

I hope they take the shooters alive.......


----------



## 7thswan

Bearfootfarm said:


> If you're going to start a thread you should at least provide some information and some credible sources


Watching it on the news and reading twitter, lots of links on twitter.
We are hearing a possible explosive device.


----------



## Patchouli

I couldn't get the link above to work so here is another:

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/12/02/auth...an-bernardino-california-nbc-los-angeles.html


> At least one person opened fire at a social services facility in San Bernardino, California, on Wednesday. Early reports said that 20 people may have been wounded, but as the situation developed it remained unclear how many exactly were hurt.
> Reports first surfaced around 11:15 a.m. PT of a shooting, and the official San Bernardino Country Sheriff's Department Twitter account said an active shooter was in the area.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doug Saunders | Los Angeles News Group | AP
> A swat team arrives at the scene of a shooting in San Bernardino, Calif. on Wednesday, Dec. 2, 2015. Police responded to reports of an active shooter at a social services facility.
> 
> A spokeswoman from nearby Loma Linda Medical Center told Reuters that the hospital was expecting patients momentarily. "We're all kind of on standby right now â it could be any minute," spokeswoman Briana Pastorino said.
> 
> Inland Regional Center, located on the 1300 block of South Waterman Street, serves residents of San Bernardino and Riverside counties who have developmental disabilities.


----------



## 7thswan

basketti said:


> This is horrible. Praying for the people involved.


Yes, I read its a facility for disabled people.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

7thswan said:


> Watching it on the news and reading twitter, lots of links on twitter.
> We are hearing a possible explosive device.


Twitter is just more hysteria, not credible information.
No one seems to be reporting anything other than speculation now


----------



## Agriculture

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I hope they take the shooters alive.......


I agree. Let them rot in prison for 20 years, and then fry them. Those who get shot get off too easy.


----------



## MO_cows

Bearfootfarm said:


> Twitter is just more hysteria, not credible information.
> No one seems to be reporting anything other than speculation now


I would consider the San Bernardino Sheriff's Department's twitter account to be "credible". 

SB County Sheriff *&#10004;* @sbcountysheriff  .@SanBernardinoPD has confirmed an active shooter in the area of Orange Show Rd/ Waterman Ave near Park center. #SBCSD assisting.
 1:26 PM - 2 Dec 2015 


A lot of "official" accounts now on twitter because it's one of the fastest ways to disseminate information. And good PR, and so on and so on.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Ugh. I doubt I'm the only one who just got a "not again" feeling.

I was having a great day too.

Thanks for posting what info you can here guys. I gotta run out for a bit. I'll check in later to see what happened.

Praying it's not many people and they get it stopped fast. Sounds like its too late to pray no one be hurt.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Here's a link from drudge. Haven't read it all. Lots of pics, some video.

Sounds like disabled people were receiving care at the place. Can't even imagine the chaos of evacuating a center possibly filled with people who might struggle to keep up mentally and/or physically under normal circumstances.

Ktla channel 5, kcal 9, and fox LA 11, probably have live feeds running of local news for this online, if anyone is wanting to see the live local reports.


----------



## arabian knight

MO_cows said:


> I would consider the San Bernardino Sheriff's Department's twitter account to be "credible".
> 
> SB County Sheriff *&#10004;* @sbcountysheriff  .@SanBernardinoPD has confirmed an active shooter in the area of Orange Show Rd/ Waterman Ave near Park center. #SBCSD assisting.
> 1:26 PM - 2 Dec 2015
> 
> 
> A lot of "official" accounts now on twitter because it's one of the fastest ways to disseminate information. And good PR, and so on and so on.


 I don't know why it is in this day in age of Google and MANY NEWS sources so many just don't want to believe when someone first posts such things as this. Google MSN YAHOO so many sources are available besides staying on here and Waiting for what some call credible likes. Radio TV are another source.


----------



## Raeven

There was just information reported on Al Jazeera America that the shooting centered on a conference area that had been rented by an outside group for the day. The outside group has not yet been identified.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

MO_cows said:


> I would consider the San Bernardino Sheriff's Department's twitter account to be "credible".
> 
> SB County Sheriff *&#10004;* @sbcountysheriff  .@SanBernardinoPD has confirmed an active shooter in the area of Orange Show Rd/ Waterman Ave near Park center. #SBCSD assisting.
> 1:26 PM - 2 Dec 2015
> 
> 
> A lot of "official" accounts now on twitter because it's one of the fastest ways to disseminate information. And good PR, and so on and so on.


This early in an event, not much is truly "credible" since they really don't know what's happening. Anyone with time to Tweet isn't concentrating on the job at hand

I don't understand the huge rush to start spreading unconfirmed information ASAP. 

Have a little patience and give them time to sort things out instead of passing along rumors.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

arabian knight said:


> I don't know *why *it is in this day in age of Google and MANY NEWS sources so many just don't want to believe when someone first posts such things as this. Google MSN YAHOO so many sources are available besides staying on here and Waiting for what some call credible likes. Radio TV are another source.


Because half the reports will turn out to be false by tomorrow.

Right now on TV they are reporting "the shooters have left the area" and "one might still be inside", so one of those is false.

The only true report I heard them make is "right now we just don't know"


----------



## 7thswan

I'm watching live, KABC.


----------



## 7thswan

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ino-active-shooter-sought-20151202-story.html
LA Times.


----------



## light rain

What group had rented the space?

The man that saw the black Yukon couldn't see the driver because of tinted windows. Tinted windows would not have affected the view of the license plate... 

Are there NO cameras in the bldg. or outside the bldg.? No security guards on the premises? Just like liability ins. and other necessary guards looks like security is going to be more and more of a sop as time goes on.

I am sorry for the death and injury that someone/s caused today. We need to be intelligent and proactive after we learn more of the culprit/s and their actions. Prepare and think ahead of time.


----------



## 7thswan

They have found the/a Yukon abandonded. There is a name out there, someone of intrest. SBPD


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Very sad. And what was the liberal spin? Msnbc comments that the shooting is taking place just mere blocks from the planned parenthood. Good grief.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Vahomesteaders said:


> Very sad. And what was the liberal spin? Msnbc comments that the shooting is taking place just mere blocks from the planned parenthood. Good grief.


Already?


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Irish Pixie said:


> Already?


Good grief. It's the spin that your side is pushing. Taking a horrible tragedy and politicizing it.


----------



## poppy

Isn't San Bernadino rife with gang activity? Don't know but I think I've read that. All I know (and even that can change) is there were 1 to 3 shooters and they apparently escaped. I hope some jihadis didn't escape containment.


----------



## poppy

Vahomesteaders said:


> Very sad. And what was the liberal spin? Msnbc comments that the shooting is taking place just mere blocks from the planned parenthood. Good grief.


Ya gotta love liberal news. Maybe the shooters went to the wrong building.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

poppy said:


> Isn't San Bernadino rife with gang activity? Don't know but I think I've read that. All I know (and even that can change) is there were 1 to 3 shooters and they apparently escaped. I hope some jihadis didn't escape containment.


Just heard something very similar. They said gang activity is high. But to early to tell. Prayers for all involved


----------



## Shine

Scheduled this recent Monday:

*VICTORVILLE*-(VVNG.com): Victor Valley College officials would like to inform students and area residents that there will be an &#8220;active shooter&#8221; training exercise on the VVC campus on Monday, November 30th. There will be significant police presence at this time according to Chief Leonard Knight who said this training will last several hours.
In order to avoid any confusion, the public is being notified ahead of time. Victor Valley College Police Department (VVCPD), San Bernardino County Sheriff&#8217;s Department (SBCSD), Victorville Police Station, San Bernardino County Fire Department (SBCFD), Victorville Fire Station, and American Medical Response (AMR) have planned for and are conducting this exercise to ensure coordinated, timely and effective response to the college community, as well as enhance safety at Victor Valley College.


http://www.vvng.com/vvc-alerts-public-to-upcoming-active-shooter-training/


----------



## Patchouli

poppy said:


> Isn't San Bernadino rife with gang activity? Don't know but I think I've read that. All I know (and even that can change) is there were 1 to 3 shooters and they apparently escaped. I hope some jihadis didn't escape containment.





> Quote: Originally Posted by *Vahomesteaders*
> _Very sad. And what was the liberal spin? Msnbc comments that the shooting is taking place just mere blocks from the planned parenthood. Good grief._





poppy said:


> Ya gotta love liberal news. Maybe the shooters went to the wrong building.


The irony here is mind blowing. :facepalm:


----------



## wiscto

Yahoo news says 14 dead now. The actual Yahoo news, not one of the weird 3rd party vendors they list all the time.


----------



## gibbsgirl

light rain said:


> What group had rented the space?
> 
> The man that saw the black Yukon couldn't see the driver because of tinted windows. Tinted windows would not have affected the view of the license plate...
> 
> Are there NO cameras in the bldg. or outside the bldg.? No security guards on the premises? Just like liability ins. and other necessary guards looks like security is going to be more and more of a sop as time goes on.
> 
> I am sorry for the death and injury that someone/s caused today. We need to be intelligent and proactive after we learn more of the culprit/s and their actions. Prepare and think ahead of time.


There was some type of city of San Bernardino event happening there today.

I don't know what kind of cameras they'd have inside. But, maybe none in some places if they were offering people services because of privacy.

All of San Bernardino govt, schools, etc is on lockdown.

Shooters are at large, but they are checking a vehicle to see if it was dumped.

14 dead, 14 hospitalized.

News conferences will be on the hour for now.

I got this info from kcal 5s broadcast.

Also, no motive known yet.


----------



## gibbsgirl

poppy said:


> Isn't San Bernadino rife with gang activity? Don't know but I think I've read that. All I know (and even that can change) is there were 1 to 3 shooters and they apparently escaped. I hope some jihadis didn't escape containment.


Yes, but virtually all of socal deals with that on some level.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

I'm listening to the San Bernadino police scanners. Lots of activity.


----------



## Patchouli

14 dead and 14 wounded. Definitely sounds like a professional hit of some sort. Black SUV with tinted windows. Shooters in black with vests and masks. In and out in minutes before the police could even respond. SUV ditched. This is the polar opposite a lone wolf gunman. 

Chief Burguan seems to have his stuff together from the first press conference.


----------



## nchobbyfarm

Police interview. 14 dead and 14 wounded.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Officer just called in for backup at creekside. Black suv is cleared. Checking out an rv


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Calling in 5 dog teams to creekside whatever that is. Lots of communication going on with a posted sniper about making sure building is clear.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

This is the first time I've really used this police scanner app. It works very well if your interested.


----------



## Patchouli

Vahomesteaders said:


> This is the first time I've really used this police scanner app. It works very well if your interested.


I would be interested. Is it on your phone or your computer?


----------



## MO_cows

Bearfootfarm said:


> This early in an event, not much is truly "credible" since they really don't know what's happening. Anyone with time to Tweet isn't concentrating on the job at hand
> 
> I don't understand the huge rush to start spreading unconfirmed information ASAP.
> 
> Have a little patience and give them time to sort things out instead of passing along rumors.


I'm not passing along rumors, I quoted it from the horse's mouth. 

It is probably someone's JOB back at HQ to tweet, it's not that they are taking time away from officers handling a live shooter situation to tweet for Pete's sake. 

Tweeting out the location of the active shooting was a good public safety service, lets people know to avoid the area. There was no speculation there, just useful info. But you go right ahead and come up with something else to argue against it if that makes you feel better. 

I get texts, not tweets, from our county for emergency type stuff, Amber alerts and so on. It's usually good stuff to know and gets the word out even faster and more effectively than releasing it to the media.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Patchouli said:


> I would be interested. Is it on your phone or your computer?


Phone. It's called police scanner. They have just cleared 2 of the three floors on North building heading to the third.


----------



## Patchouli

Vahomesteaders said:


> Phone. It's called police scanner. They have just cleared 2 of the three floors on North building heading to the third.


Ah no smart phone.


----------



## 7thswan

Patchouli said:


> 14 dead and 14 wounded. Definitely sounds like a professional hit of some sort. Black SUV with tinted windows. Shooters in black with vests and masks. In and out in minutes before the police could even respond. SUV ditched. This is the polar opposite a lone wolf gunman.


sounds like the government doesn't it?


----------



## MO_cows

Patchouli said:


> 14 dead and 14 wounded. Definitely sounds like a professional hit of some sort. Black SUV with tinted windows. Shooters in black with vests and masks. In and out in minutes before the police could even respond. SUV ditched. This is the polar opposite a lone wolf gunman.
> 
> Chief Burguan seems to have his stuff together from the first press conference.


Oh geez that is awful. I was hoping the early reports of so many dead would turn out to be wrong. 

This is really a weird one. Like you said, more in the style of a professional hit than lunatic, terrorist, gang bangers, etc.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

All buildings clear. Something going on in the south creekside. Vehicle ditched. Found a. 22 long rifle.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Located a suspect walking armed in a subdivision dressed in camo. Called in bomb squad. Two men now held at gunpoint by officers


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Third male suspect just stepped out.


----------



## Patchouli

7thswan said:


> sounds like the government doesn't it?


I highly doubt it is but yes if this were a movie it would very likely turn out to be some shadowy government agency. We really need to know who rented the conference room and if they were the ones shot. That should lead to a motive and suspects.


----------



## DryHeat

From what I've gathered, it sounds like this building sometimes rents rooms out for conferences. LE isn't saying the identity of any group outright targeted, but if there was one, I bet they've known it for a while this afternoon. This doesn't sound like an attempt to inflict massive random fatalities, rather more of a planned hit or revenge retaliation for real or perceived opposition to another group's goals or beliefs. Among the tweets and stuff I've looked through was a link to an earlier article claiming that San Bernadino has a pretty high presence of neo-Nazi militia types. Some government group or inter-agency conference dealing with unpopular social issues, or perceived as persecuting such a group? This sounds *so* well-planned and equipped that that sort of scenario seems possible to me. An Islamic terror cell deciding to pick some localized target more at random then bug-out efficiently, switch vehicles, hunker down (maybe) then attack elsewhere like a mall or church later, and on, and on, a version of that DC sniper spree years ago, isn't out of the question either, given that we really do not have much information. If this IS flat-out terror, whether foreign or domestic, it could be an intense racheting upwards of the concept, especially if a pattern of unconnected "soft" targets starts playing out before these killers are done away with.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Must have gotten into a vehicle. Chasing a black suv with Utah plates. Asking for emediate backup


----------



## Tiempo

Vahomesteaders said:


> Third male suspect just stepped out.


Thanks for the scanner updates Va.


----------



## Patchouli

Video from someone there. She assumed it was a drill...... 


https://youtu.be/SRNJNlCGduM


----------



## Vahomesteaders

The way it sounds 2 men are on the run in the suv. A third is somewhere in a neighborhood at Tennessee and state Rd. One is a large heavy set male in 2015 suv untinted windows.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Got them on the run high rate of speed


----------



## po boy

Patchouli said:


> Ah no smart phone.


I just got this one on my I
phone and it appears to be available for pc and mac


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Unknown of its related to shooting. Dark chevy running at high rate of speed. All units in pursuit.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

One bailed running through parking lot with 4 officers in pursuit


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Suspect taken into custody.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Shots fired out of back window of suv.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Units taking fire. Pray for these folks.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Oh no one officer just called for a gurney.


----------



## DryHeat

CNN just now got onto the individual down in a parking lot. Kudos on these scanner updates, this is clearly the best info available if one wants to follow this on the cutting edge.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Wow you can here the shots in the scanner. This is very scary stuff. Prayers are needed.


----------



## no really

Watching some aerials now.


----------



## FarmerKat

Praying for everyone involved.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Two men in vehicle shot, one still on the run.


----------



## Tiempo

Va, I have the scanner app, there are a lot of options for San Bernadino County, which feed are you listening to?


----------



## gibbsgirl

MO_cows said:


> Oh geez that is awful. I was hoping the early reports of so many dead would turn out to be wrong.
> 
> This is really a weird one. Like you said, more in the style of a professional hit than lunatic, terrorist, gang bangers, etc.


Actually, I have not heard this suggested. But, it has occurred to me Mexican drug cartel vs city if San Bernardino.

It would be high profile and not unusual south of the border. But, they gave been creeping further into the US in recent years with more boldness.

Kcal 5 just showed a dead body in the street. May be a dead suspect.


----------



## Tiempo

Ok, the one I have on said bodies inside the car. What is a bearcat?


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Moving in to check on bodies in the car. None on foot. This may all be over.


----------



## no really

Tiempo said:


> Ok, the one I have on said bodies inside the car. What is a bearcat?


Armored vehicle


----------



## Vahomesteaders

One guy is beside the car down no movement. One inside vehicle. Praying officers are safe as they move in. Sounds like 2 down for count and one detained.


----------



## no really

They are saying one on foot now


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Bearcat is moving in to check on bodies in vehicle.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

None on foot at the moment. 2 down and third in custody.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

One in custody is a dark skinned individual. Driver believed to be white. Another suspect is now on the run. That makes 4 involved.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

4th in custody is uninvolved


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Suspect in suv is alive with AR round to chest. Pipe bombs found in different locations. Suspect from nearby Redlands.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Sending swat to suspect address.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Now another black male running from location. Not sure if involved.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Thank you vahomesteaders for sharing what you're hearing.


----------



## Tiempo

Got the feed, thanks. Device found on San Bernadino Ave, clearing


----------



## TraderBob

Unconfirmed reports identified the 3rd suspect as Farooq Saeed, a name repeated on police scanners and reported from some American news outlets.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

No problem. It was a bit nerve racking. You could here the shots being fired. Pipe bombs located in several locations.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Thankfully so far no police officers hurt.


----------



## Tiempo

Vahomesteaders said:


> Thankfully so far no police officers hurt.


The feed I have on said one officer being transported to hospital


----------



## Tiempo

Amazon empolyee scared running from building


----------



## Tiempo

Vehicle registered to "female Arabic"


----------



## gibbsgirl

Tiempo said:


> The feed I have on said one officer being transported to hospital


The last news conf lady said she didn't know details but one was going to need hospital. 90% sure I heard that right. Listening to news over kids though while I make supper.

Kcal reported CNN reporting two more suspects in standoff somewhere. But, kcal has no info to confirm.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

CBS is reporting all 3 suspects are either dead or in custody


----------



## gibbsgirl

Drudge says 17 injured now. Also has live links.

Knx 1070 radio is a good station out there. They have a live feed up on their site too I guess.


----------



## greg273

I don't like to speculate... but I am going to anyway.... the planning, the multiple gunmen, the soft target, this is probably the ISIS attack we've been waiting for.


----------



## Tiempo

It's sounding entirely possible Greg


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> Originally Posted by Tiempo View Post
> Ok, the one I have on said bodies inside the car. What is a bearcat?


If you're watching on live TV now, the Bearcats are the big trucks at each end of the SUV with the turret holes on top


----------



## po boy

greg273 said:


> I don't like to speculate... but I am going to anyway.... the planning, the multiple gunmen, the soft target, this is probably the ISIS attack we've been waiting for.


I was thinking soft target also. 

http://mortgagegrapevine.com/thread/?thread=614656

The dispatcher, who has been doing a wonderful job, was just told 
'Man in camoflauge, tactical shorts, long beard, and a head set, spotted at elementary school. 

Dispatcher says 
'You were breaking up. Did you say middle eastern male?' 

He did not, in any way, say anything except long beard...unless she is so stressed that elementary sounded like middle eastern...I could almost sympathize with that mistake


----------



## InTownForNow

Im listening too but there are a few san bernadinos- is it the one that they are checking a church?


----------



## Woolieface

Shine said:


> Scheduled this recent Monday:
> 
> *VICTORVILLE*-(VVNG.com): Victor Valley College officials would like to inform students and area residents that there will be an âactive shooterâ training exercise on the VVC campus on Monday, November 30th. There will be significant police presence at this time according to Chief Leonard Knight who said this training will last several hours.
> In order to avoid any confusion, the public is being notified ahead of time. Victor Valley College Police Department (VVCPD), San Bernardino County Sheriffâs Department (SBCSD), Victorville Police Station, San Bernardino County Fire Department (SBCFD), Victorville Fire Station, and American Medical Response (AMR) have planned for and are conducting this exercise to ensure coordinated, timely and effective response to the college community, as well as enhance safety at Victor Valley College.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.vvng.com/vvc-alerts-public-to-upcoming-active-shooter-training/


Always happens like that, doesn't it....?


----------



## poppy

greg273 said:


> I don't like to speculate... but I am going to anyway.... the planning, the multiple gunmen, the soft target, this is probably the ISIS attack we've been waiting for.


Could be but I heard the FBI said some guy in the meeting left angry and returned with 2 others and did the shooting. I wonder what sort of meeting it was. If it is true, the guy who left mad had some allies close by. It looks like they had a specific target to me. They entered the building and went straight to the 2nd floor before they shot people.


----------



## Tiempo

Dispatcher believes all suspects accounted for, officer responding not sure


----------



## po boy

poppy said:


> Could be but I heard the FBI said some guy in the meeting left angry and returned with 2 others and did the shooting. I wonder what sort of meeting it was. If it is true, the guy who left mad had some allies close by.


Hearing that on the news................... Since they had all that armor, it seems to me this was planned


----------



## wiscto

The hunt for accomplices begins.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

The one suspect in custody is black male.


----------



## nchobbyfarm

Fox News just reported a witness said one man was in the meeting, got angry, left and returned with two more armed men. Might prove untrue but interesting info. Probably take days for all info to come in. Time will tell.


----------



## no really

nchobbyfarm said:


> Fox News just reported a witness said one man was in the meeting, got angry, left and returned with two more armed men. Might prove untrue but interesting info. Probably take days for all info to come in. Time will tell.


That is interesting since witnesses also said all were wearing masks. Lot more to come out for sure.


----------



## light rain

Gibbsgirl, privacy doesn't trump safety in MHO. I would bet that the families of the 14 victims would agree...

Do they not employ any security personnel? Did not anyone in that building not have a concealed carry permit?


----------



## gibbsgirl

I'm torn right now.

I really do like when reporters get witness interviews. That's important, especially for making sure you compare what govt tells the media.

But, because many people involved may have had a mental disability, it just doesn't seem there is a good clear way to compassionately ask.

These reporters are standing waiting to ask witnesses as they are released to answer questions. It's the reporters jobs. But, there doesn't seem to be any easy way to distinguished who are staff or patient relatives from patients. And, you cannot necessarily tell just by looking with some disabilities. 

Not the worst part of the story obviously. But, sheesh, it is awkward.


----------



## InTownForNow

Thats true, gibbs- a good point to consider. Im confused about the pipe bombs- if they left and came back then they must have been planning it before, i woukd have assumed.


----------



## 7thswan

nchobbyfarm said:


> Fox News just reported a witness said one man was in the meeting, got angry, left and returned with two more armed men. Might prove untrue but interesting info. Probably take days for all info to come in. Time will tell.


yes. this is the person I hinted to many posts past(post 23). I have the name but will not post now.


----------



## gibbsgirl

light rain said:


> Gibbsgirl, privacy doesn't trump safety in MHO. I would bet that the families of the 14 victims would agree...
> 
> Do they not employ any security personnel? Did not anyone in that building not have a concealed carry permit?


I'm not necessarily disagreeing. I just said because I remember ed when my kids 4h club gave holiday gifts to easter seals center for several holidays one year. Sounds kinda like this place. They never allowed pictures inside of anyone, even when our club kids were being friends with patients, for patient privacy. So, I don't know if they would have video that would help like you might at a bank or something.


----------



## light rain

While I hate the idea of drones and other electronic privacy invasions I see that conscience and ethics are not quite the inhibitory forces they once use to be. 

Yep, Christianity just doesn't have the influence/respect that it once had. That is a sad truth... As time goes on we will become increasingly aware of the void.


----------



## Old Vet

greg273 said:


> I don't like to speculate... but I am going to anyway.... the planning, the multiple gunmen, the soft target, this is probably the ISIS attack we've been waiting for.


Haven't you heard ISIS is contained and would have nothing to do with this. It must be home grown terrorist.


----------



## nchobbyfarm

News now reporting the meeting was the Environmental Health Services of Sam Bernadino county.


----------



## 7thswan

JD got a gun, muzzies on the run, you arent taken this old girls momma out at the gov. rehab center, center fire see, revolver quick as can be, hide a bomb in your panties , I have more ammo than you have brains, so inhibit your girls and pet a goat,run away, run away run run run away...you looser scum....
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqQn2ADZE1A[/ame]


----------



## poppy

Someone posted on another site that Fox is saying the shooters had Arabic names. That might rule out the Amish and Mormons.


----------



## poppy

Old Vet said:


> Haven't you heard ISIS is contained and would have nothing to do with this. It must be home grown terrorist.


Looks like workplace violence to me.


----------



## poppy

Vahomesteaders said:


> The one suspect in custody is black male.



Could be a gang member, a converted Muslim, or just a good boy walking home with some 7-up and Skittles. Time will tell.


----------



## painterswife

One is a female, two dead.


----------



## FarmerKat

The whole story about someone walking out angry and coming back with 2 buddies to kill people just does not jive ... I mean, who is ready with body armor and pipe bombs and 2 friends to go in with you on a moments' notice? If a friend called me and said "they really ticked me off at work and I walked out, let's go kill them", I would not exactly jump into a car and go with him/her .... I would call the cops and the company to let them know where he was headed.


----------



## gibbsgirl

2nd news conference is on now with pd chief and FBI.

Terrorism has not been ruled out. But, they have stuff left to look at that might show it is not terrorism.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Someone did leave upset from mtg or party. But, they hav no confirmation of whether that person came back as the shooter or not the shooter or didn't come back at all.


----------



## gibbsgirl

It sounds like they have not confirmed if the people the cops shot were actually the shooter's....huh??

Next press conference at 8:30 or 9pm.


----------



## 7thswan

Nooo say it aint so...
http://www.vocativ.com/news/256909/isis-san-bernardino-mass-shooting-america-burning/


----------



## FarmerKat

gibbsgirl said:


> It sounds like they have not confirmed if the people the cops shot were actually the shooter's....huh??
> 
> Next press conference at 8:30 or 9pm.


That is crazy ... I pray they did not shoot some innocent people. Did they not report that there was a shootout between the people in the SUV and police?


----------



## 7thswan

FarmerKat said:


> The whole story about someone walking out angry and coming back with 2 buddies to kill people just does not jive ... I mean, who is ready with body armor and pipe bombs and 2 friends to go in with you on a moments' notice? If a friend called me and said "they really ticked me off at work and I walked out, let's go kill them", I would not exactly jump into a car and go with him/her .... I would call the cops and the company to let them know where he was headed.


people that have been brewing hate. it's not the guns it's the hate this adm. is stokeing and we know it,so does he, deliberatly. the liedowns pretend they don't know.


----------



## keenataz

Boy on the Planned Parenthood shooting many conservatives derided liberals politicizing the event. I see it took at least one poster a whole 6 hours to start politicizing. It didn't take long to bring Muslims and Obama hate to come in.


----------



## FarmboyBill

IF your talkin about the San Frisco shooting, its a guy and gal, 14 gone 17 wounded.


----------



## gibbsgirl

FarmerKat said:


> That is crazy ... I pray they did not shoot some innocent people. Did they not report that there was a shootout between the people in the SUV and police?


They did say it was a shootout,and they went there on a tip. But, the guys from what I caught at the press conference, seemed to dance around explicitly saying these people were the shooter's.

I said, huh, though cause I was sobstartled I was wondering if I heard wrong. Gotta a full household, so maybe I missed it.

The news reporters seem to have made the link and are saying the two dead and one in custody are the three suspects, but I didn't hear the officials say that.

There's a lot of people involved. There's still at least 150 people being debriefed.


----------



## 7thswan

keenataz said:


> Boy on the Planned Parenthood shooting many conservatives derided liberals politicizing the event. I see it took at least one poster a whole 6 hours to start politicizing. It didn't take long to bring Muslims and Obama hate to come in.


You meen obama the muslim? leave out the "and". we all knew he was one of the terrorist religion 's spawn.


----------



## keenataz

7thswan said:


> You meen obama the muslim? leave out the "and". we all knew he was one of the terrorist religion 's spawn.


I am not going to debate you. Only tell you that you are wrong to bring in your petty beliefs so soon after such a tragedy. 

And yes if liberals bring up gun control they wrong.


----------



## 7thswan

keenataz said:


> I am not going to debate you. Only tell you that you are wrong to bring in your petty beliefs so soon after such a tragedy.
> 
> And yes if liberals bring up gun control they wrong.


Obama is a muslim. Period. He went to and was married by a minister claimeing to be Christian but was only a cover for hateful muslims that had to "fit in" to our Christion Nation to distroy it. Your coverup beliefs are the petty ones and you still refuse to see what your political stance has done to this Country and how much hate your nonsence is bringing up. It is people like YOU that give credance to the haters of the USA, western haters for the good of islam a sick cult dreamed up by a pedofile.'heres the shooter the media talks about/dosne't talk about.http://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?a=san-bernardino-county&q=farook&y=


----------



## painterswife

7thswan said:


> Obama is a muslim. Period. He went to and was married by a minister claimeing to be Christian but was only a cover for hateful muslims that had to "fit in" to our Christion Nation to distroy it. Your coverup beliefs are the petty ones and you still refuse to see what your political stance has done to this Country and how much hate your nonsence is bringing up. It is people like YOU that give credance to the haters of the USA, western haters for the good of islam a sick cult dreamed up by a pedofile.'heres the shooter the media talks about/dosne't talk about.http://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?a=san-bernardino-county&q=farook&y=


The crap you post is ridiculous. Is there anything you don't believe is Obama's fault?


----------



## Cornhusker

keenataz said:


> Boy on the Planned Parenthood shooting many conservatives derided liberals politicizing the event. I see it took at least one poster a whole 6 hours to start politicizing. It didn't take long to bring Muslims and Obama hate to come in.


You mean like this right?
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/7599692-post5.html


----------



## gibbsgirl

News showed phone video of cops with people who were inside waiting seven hours to be evacuated. Cop was giving instructions for exiting with hands up, etc. Made a nice comment to reassure the people he would be the first to take a bullet if that happened.

But, I still cannot imagine. Seven hours is a lot for anybody. But, can you imagine the extras layers to this if some of these people were blind? Deaf? Schizophrenic? Autistic? If they needed medication while waiting? Waiting for hours. Trying to process the reality of what was happening. Possibly struggling to follow directions of law enforcement.

Oh my. I really feel terrible for the especially difficult challenges this may have created because of where this happened.....


----------



## poppy

I suspect the police put out misleading information, or at least incomplete information, on purpose. It will take some time to identify these people, find out where they live, and who their associates were to find any others who might have been involved. I'd guess it is unlikely these 3 are the only ones who knew of the attack.


----------



## mreynolds

MO_cows said:


> I'm not passing along rumors, I quoted it from the horse's mouth.
> 
> It is probably someone's JOB back at HQ to tweet, it's not that they are taking time away from officers handling a live shooter situation to tweet for Pete's sake.
> 
> Tweeting out the location of the active shooting was a good public safety service, lets people know to avoid the area. There was no speculation there, just useful info. But you go right ahead and come up with something else to argue against it if that makes you feel better.
> 
> I get texts, not tweets, from our county for emergency type stuff, Amber alerts and so on. It's usually good stuff to know and gets the word out even faster and more effectively than releasing it to the media.


Yes, its the way it works now. All radio traffic on the radio gets transmitted back to the dispatch and is available for all responders to see. The communications officer uses that info as well as other non transmitted info to send to the public relations officer and so on. It is the most accurate info there is to have. 

When I get a page to a fire or medical call I have all that info on my phone. That way if its paged out as a suicide but it was really attempted murder as we are in route we know to back off until the scene is safe.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Suspect name released. Syed Farook.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Last name or middle name may be raheel. Got info from possible property records.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

7thswan said:


> Obama is a muslim. Period. He went to and was married by a minister claimeing to be Christian but was only a cover for hateful muslims that had to "fit in" to our Christion Nation to distroy it. Your coverup beliefs are the petty ones and you still refuse to see what your political stance has done to this Country and how much hate your nonsence is bringing up. It is people like YOU that give credance to the haters of the USA, western haters for the good of islam a sick cult dreamed up by a pedofile.'heres the shooter the media talks about/dosne't talk about.http://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?a=san-bernardino-county&q=farook&y=


If you want to talk about BO you should start your own thread in Politics
This one is about a shooting


----------



## Patchouli

painterswife said:


> The crap you post is ridiculous. Is there anything you don't believe is Obama's fault?


I think it has moved past ridiculous and into genuinely sad. Hate can destroy the mind. :huh:


----------



## Roadking

keenataz said:


> I am not going to debate you. Only tell you that you are wrong to bring in your petty beliefs so soon after such a tragedy.
> 
> And yes if liberals bring up gun control they wrong.


Liberals and conservative responses...FWIW. 
I usually avoid posting in this forum, however, I feel it needs to be shared...with appropriate huffpo links.

Presidential candidates immediate responses:

Hillary Clinton
@HillaryClinton

I refuse to accept this as normal. We must take action to stop gun violence now.

Quote:
Bernie Sanders
@BernieSanders

Mass shootings are becoming an almost-everyday occurrence in this country. This sickening and senseless gun violence must stop.

Quote:
Ted Cruz
@tedcruz

Our prayers are with the victims, their families, and the first responders in San Bernardino who willingly go into harmâs way to save others

Quote:
Dr. Rand Paul
@RandPaul

My thoughts and prayers are with the victims, families, and brave first responders during this unspeakable tragedy.

More at these spots...

http://onpolitics.usatoday.com/2015/12/02/2016-candidates-react-to-san-bernardino-shooting/


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/san-bernardino-mass-shooting_565f4acae4b08e945fedc0b3


----------



## wiscto

light rain said:


> Gibbsgirl, privacy doesn't trump safety in MHO. I would bet that the families of the 14 victims would agree...
> 
> Do they not employ any security personnel? Did not anyone in that building not have a concealed carry permit?


Privacy doesn't just trump safety, lack of privacy is a safety issue. Think about what it must have taken for people to find out where you lived back in the days when you could force the phone books to keep you unlisted. Today ISIS is a hack away from knowing where some random American with an opinion lives. If that. Not to mention the power that corruption could provide to certain people over the rest of us.


----------



## Vahomesteaders

Father of dead suspect calls his son a....

" Devoted Muslim"


----------



## Darren

"One of the suspects in Wednesday&#8217;s mass shooting in San Bernardino, Calif. has been identified as Syed Farook, according to reports. Farook was linked to the horrific slaughter that took place at the Inland Regional Center, according to NBC News."


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...d-calif-massacre-identified-article-1.2453471


----------



## arabian knight




----------



## gibbsgirl

I'm gonna say it so it's been said. This was likely a gun free zone. And, if they had security, they might not have been armed "for patient safety".

I understand the argument that not all armed people can necessarily make the kill shot against a shooter.

But, the club wasn't a foolproof way to stop car thefts either.

The club was a deterrent because it was there making a vehicle with the club a less desirable target of opportunity.

Places where armed citizens are likely at, make those places a less desirable target of opportunity.

My thoughts anyway.


----------



## tiffnzacsmom

Not just client safety. Do we really want individuals with developmental delays that also may have mental health issues to easily have access to weapons? Where I work we have some individuals who can be great 90% of the time but we have to lock up even butter knives for everyone's safety. An armed guard could end up targeted out of the blue just as much as any of the other staff that's been hospitalized.


----------



## poppy

It is clearly becoming Muslim related. Some are thinking this was a Muslim terror cell preparing for an attack but the male shooter may have gotten angry at a meeting and decided to attack them instead. Whatever their reason, they certainly had the weapons and gear prepared for something bad. I have no doubt there are others involved, at least with other terror plans.


----------



## wr

Roadking said:


> Liberals and conservative responses...FWIW.
> 
> I usually avoid posting in this forum, however, I feel it needs to be shared...with appropriate huffpo links.
> 
> 
> 
> Presidential candidates immediate responses:
> 
> 
> 
> Hillary Clinton
> 
> @HillaryClinton
> 
> 
> 
> I refuse to accept this as normal. We must take action to stop gun violence now.
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Bernie Sanders
> 
> @BernieSanders
> 
> 
> 
> Mass shootings are becoming an almost-everyday occurrence in this country. This sickening and senseless gun violence must stop.
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Ted Cruz
> 
> @tedcruz
> 
> 
> 
> Our prayers are with the victims, their families, and the first responders in San Bernardino who willingly go into harmâs way to save others
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> Dr. Rand Paul
> 
> @RandPaul
> 
> 
> 
> My thoughts and prayers are with the victims, families, and brave first responders during this unspeakable tragedy.
> 
> 
> 
> More at these spots...
> 
> 
> 
> http://onpolitics.usatoday.com/2015/12/02/2016-candidates-react-to-san-bernardino-shooting/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/san-bernardino-mass-shooting_565f4acae4b08e945fedc0b3



I agree with your point. At this time, energy is best spent on supporting the victims and their families.


----------



## gibbsgirl

tiffnzacsmom said:


> Not just client safety. Do we really want individuals with developmental delays that also may have mental health issues to easily have access to weapons? Where I work we have some individuals who can be great 90% of the time but we have to lock up even butter knives for everyone's safety. An armed guard could end up targeted out of the blue just as much as any of the other staff that's been hospitalized.



I understand what you're saying, but I don't want some of the most vulnerable citizens to be so easily a target either.

Hospitals and everyday life, traffic, medications, etc, etc can present just as fatal a danger to some of these same people. But, they are worked around willingly.

Yet, there is such a stigma attached to guns that it's difficult to have an unbiased discussion about them. And, yet time and again, gun free zones are a common thread linking so many shootings, regardless of the shooter's motivation.

This time, the shooting hurt some of the most dependent people we gave, and I pray that rattles some more people to see that gun free zones are worse than a non-solution, they are an advertised invitation.


----------



## keenataz

gibbsgirl said:


> I understand what you're saying, but I don't want some of the most vulnerable citizens to be so easily a target either.
> 
> Hospitals and everyday life, traffic, medications, etc, etc can present just as fatal a danger to some of these same people. But, they are worked around willingly.
> 
> Yet, there is such a stigma attached to guns that it's difficult to have an unbiased discussion about them. And, yet time and again, gun free zones are a common thread linking so many shootings, regardless of the shooter's motivation.
> 
> This time, the shooting hurt some of the most dependent people we gave, and I pray that rattles some more people to see that gun free zones are worse than a non-solution, they are an advertised invitation.


Do we know who the victims are yet? Heard conflicting reports.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> Originally Posted by light rain View Post
> Gibbsgirl, privacy doesn't trump safety in MHO. I would bet that the families of the 14 victims would agree...
> 
> Do they not employ any security personnel? Did not anyone in that building not have a concealed carry permit?


It's ny understanding that the building was the only one of the three at the site that didn't have tight security.

The shooters seem to have attacked a group who had rented the space for a party.

It's CA, so you won't see lots of people with carry permits, and especially at a work related function.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

keenataz said:


> Do we know who the victims are yet? Heard conflicting reports.


It's only been a few hours.
It takes time to notify all the families before releasing information to the public.
I feel certain there will be a list by tomorrow afternoon.


----------



## Darren

Lots of people will be watching developments. There's lots of questions. California doesn't allow so-called assault weapons. Did the man's religion play a part? Possibly not since there's thoughts of workplace violence. If that's so why three instead of one?


----------



## gibbsgirl

keenataz said:


> Do we know who the victims are yet? Heard conflicting reports.


I heard a cop was one, but not life threatening, and the two suspects. Don't know about the others. One was a gay guy's boyfriend that was interviewed on TV, but I thought I also heard he was his brother. So, don't know. He was 42. Obviously, a loved one of some kind to the man being interviewed. Wasn't clear if the 42 to guy was a client or instructor. That's all I recall about gun shot victims.

But, I think every person in their, their loved ones and that whole community has been victimized today.

Can't imagine how frustrating it must have been for the parents if the school kids to know the shooter's were at large too. There was a school close to either that house in redlands or where the shootout happened.

I heard the news announce that the last school lifted their lockdown at 4pm. So, at least hopefully most all the kids got to get picked up and taken home before dark out there.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Eta. I've read some articles tonight, but most of what I out up for info is stuff I got from watching the local news live feeds.


----------



## keenataz

gibbsgirl said:


> I heard a cop was one, but not life threatening, and the two suspects. Don't know about the others. One was a gay guy's boyfriend that was interviewed on TV, but I thought I also heard he was his brother. So, don't know. He was 42. Obviously, a loved one of some kind to the man being interviewed. Wasn't clear if the 42 to guy was a client or instructor. That's all I recall about gun shot victims.
> 
> But, I think every person in their, their loved ones and that whole community has been victimized today.
> 
> Can't imagine how frustrating it must have been for the parents if the school kids to know the shooter's were at large too. There was a school close to either that house in redlands or where the shootout happened.
> 
> I heard the news announce that the last school lifted their lockdown at 4pm. So, at least hopefully most all the kids got to get picked up and taken home before dark out there.


I wasn't trying to be voyeuristic on who the victims were. It's just I heard it was perhaps disabled people but then it was government workers at a social gathering. Doesn't make any difference really. 

It just seems like this was a deliberate targeting and not a "kill as many as you can". 

Again it doesn't matter. It is just terribly sad and discouraging.


----------



## gibbsgirl

keenataz said:


> I wasn't trying to be voyeuristic on who the victims were. It's just I heard it was perhaps disabled people but then it was government workers at a social gathering. Doesn't make any difference really.
> 
> It just seems like this was a deliberate targeting and not a "kill as many as you can".
> 
> Again it doesn't matter. It is just terribly sad and discouraging.


I have no idea if it was either or both.

But, I think the shooter's knew those disabled people could be killed and terrorized secondarily, even if they were not primary targets.

I'd feel like it was a tragic location to target also, if say some shooter's targeted a conference hall at a Disney resort that was hosting a business event. There'd be tons of families all around. Total cheap shot, low blow, whatever. Those aren't strong enough words, but I think my comparison makes sense.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Forgot to add, atf lady said there was at least one bomb type device at irc, hadn't cleared buildings yet fully.

But, the stuff thrown out of the vehicle was fake bombs, just pipes with cloths or fuses or sonething, and they were still checking the house. She was interviewed on TV earlier.


----------



## Darren

The second suspect is Tayyeep Bin Ardogan, a 28 year-old citizen of Qatar. Syed Farook is an American citizen. 

http://pamelageller.com/2015/12/tay...ino-jihad-shooting.html/#sthash.DAlVE8Zc.dpuf


----------



## Scott SW Ohio

Darren said:


> The second suspect is Tayyeep Bin Ardogan, a 28 year-old citizen of Qatar. Syed Farook is an American citizen.
> 
> http://pamelageller.com/2015/12/tay...ino-jihad-shooting.html/#sthash.DAlVE8Zc.dpuf


An update at your linked site says this is a hoax - Tayyeep Bin Ardogan is not one of the suspects.


----------



## arabian knight




----------



## Darren

Scott SW Ohio said:


> An update at your linked site says this is a hoax - Tayyeep Bin Ardogan is not one of the suspects.


You're correct. Now it appears his wife was one of the three. It's reported he met her on line and went to Saudi Arabia to get her and her child.


----------



## 7thswan

painterswife said:


> The crap you post is ridiculous. Is there anything you don't believe is Obama's fault?


It IS all his fault because it is all planned long before he became president-AND we told you what he is all about. But you keep defending him and so he gets away with more.


----------



## scooter

This was a well planned and thought out act of terrorism. Tactical gear, GoPro cameras and right down to how it was executed. 
A neighbor reported seeing Arab men coming and going at odd hours for a long time, but, was afraid to report it because they thought it would be racially profiling.
This PC crap has been going on way too long and shoved down everyone's throats and so many people have bought into it.


----------



## Laura Zone 5

scooter said:


> This was a well planned and thought out act of terrorism. Tactical gear, GoPro cameras and right down to how it was executed.
> *A neighbor reported seeing Arab men coming and going at odd hours for a long time, but, was afraid to report it because they thought it would be racially profiling.
> 
> This PC crap has been going on way too long and shoved down everyone's throats and so many people have bought into it.*


Wasn't there some sort of 'government' program thing where they were asking us to 'snitch on our neighbor' I think it was called "see something say something"???

Is there a 'manual' to go along with this program that tells you how to 'say something when you see something AND not 'racial profile, hurt anyone's feewings?'

Just saying


----------



## M5farm

WELL,WELL,WELL looks like another mooselimb lived and worked in a community and had friends and then he did what his book told him to do. Kill infidels!!!!! Its so sad the our leaders are a bunch kitty cats!!!! and their followers defend them.


----------



## no really

Sounds like they basically had a bomb factory in their home. IED's attached to remote controlled cars. Sounds like they had plans to continue their actions.


----------



## Tricky Grama

tiffnzacsmom said:


> Not just client safety. Do we really want individuals with developmental delays that also may have mental health issues to easily have access to weapons? Where I work we have some individuals who can be great 90% of the time but we have to lock up even butter knives for everyone's safety. An armed guard could end up targeted out of the blue just as much as any of the other staff that's been hospitalized.


What do you mean? It was my understanding that this office was people who WORK w/disabled, not that the entire building was full of disabled folks. Offices FOR the disabled...?


----------



## painterswife

7thswan said:


> It IS all his fault because it is all planned long before he became president-AND we told you what he is all about. But you keep defending him and so he gets away with more.


Yes, another crazy conspiracy post.


----------



## M5farm

Tricky Grama said:


> What do you mean? It was my understanding that this office was people who WORK w/disabled, not that the entire building was full of disabled folks. Offices FOR the disabled...?


The only building I know of that's full of disabled folks is the white house and capital hill.


----------



## 7thswan

painterswife said:


> Yes, another crazy conspiracy post.


As compaired to your head in the sand approach.:boring:

https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Explanatory_Memoradum.pdf This is a government memorandom. You won't take your head out of the sewer long enough to read it tho.


&#8220;The process of settlement is a 
&#8216;Civilization-Jihadist Process&#8217; with all 
the word means. The Ikhwan [Muslim 
Brotherhood] must understand that their 
work in America is a kind of grand jihad 
in eliminating and destroying the 
Western civilization from within and 
&#8220;sabotaging&#8221; its miserable house by 
their hands and the hands of the 
believers so that it is eliminated and 
God's religion is made victorious over 
all other religions.&#8221;


----------



## Darren

painterswife said:


> Yes, another crazy conspiracy post.


You made me think of something. Is marketing a conspiracy?


----------



## Tricky Grama

scooter said:


> This was a well planned and thought out act of terrorism. Tactical gear, GoPro cameras and right down to how it was executed.
> A neighbor reported seeing Arab men coming and going at odd hours for a long time, but, was afraid to report it because they thought it would be racially profiling.
> This PC crap has been going on way too long and shoved down everyone's throats and so many people have bought into it.


Post of the decade award.

Listened to an interview last eve, no I don't have link, didn't even hear the entire thing, but guy in gov security said there were hundreds of mosques 'profiled' & monitored, 100 had jihad supporting pamphlets, &/or PREACHED jihad to their attendees. 
Someone tell me why we have done nothing about this!


----------



## painterswife

7thswan said:


> As compaired to your head in the sand approach.:boring:
> 
> https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Explanatory_Memoradum.pdf This is a government memorandom. You won't take your head out of the sewer long enough to read it tho.
> 
> 
> âThe process of settlement is a
> âCivilization-Jihadist Processâ with all
> the word means. The Ikhwan [Muslim
> Brotherhood] must understand that their
> work in America is a kind of grand jihad
> in eliminating and destroying the
> Western civilization from within and
> âsabotagingâ its miserable house by
> their hands and the hands of the
> believers so that it is eliminated and
> God's religion is made victorious over
> all other religions.â


I know being realistic is boring.


----------



## Laura Zone 5

Tricky Grama said:


> Post of the decade award.
> 
> Listened to an interview last eve, no I don't have link, didn't even hear the entire thing, but guy in gov security said there were hundreds of mosques 'profiled' & monitored, 100 had jihad supporting pamphlets, &/or PREACHED jihad to their attendees.
> Someone tell me why we have done nothing about this!


I know more than the average bear about this topic, but cannot speak on it, but suffice it to say, you are correct on the monitoring and intel gathered in such places.


----------



## 7thswan

painterswife said:


> Yes, another crazy conspiracy post.





painterswife said:


> I know being realistic is boring.


Heres your reality. Islamic attacks for the last 30 days.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks


----------



## painterswife

7thswan said:


> Heres your reality. Islamic attacks for the last 30 days.
> http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks


Supporting your hate of Obama with attacks by radical islam is not very logical and vice versa.


----------



## mmoetc

Tricky Grama said:


> Post of the decade award.
> 
> Listened to an interview last eve, no I don't have link, didn't even hear the entire thing, but guy in gov security said there were hundreds of mosques 'profiled' & monitored, 100 had jihad supporting pamphlets, &/or PREACHED jihad to their attendees.
> Someone tell me why we have done nothing about this!


Of course you don't have a link. Could be the man's relatives and friends were visiting. Someone with a suspicious mind would see a lot of white men with guns who looked a lot like the abortion clinic shooter hanging around my house and coming and going at odd hours lately. Perfect cover for planning the next attack, no?


----------



## Cornhusker

Patchouli said:


> I think it has moved past ridiculous and into genuinely sad. Hate can destroy the mind. :huh:


I don't mean any offense here, but you seem to have a lot of hatred in you.


----------



## DryHeat

My interpretation at this point has moved to this tragedy being something like 80% Islamic (of the minority but vocal jihadist strain) and 20% workplace-related "going postal" type anger fueling the target and exact timing. Somewhere overlaying all that, for the husband, the wife, or even both, could be clinical paranoia, literally voices of Allah pushing one or both of them along, but that'll be hard to be sure about unless ranting online records can now be found.

One point I've just seen mentioned in the morning news as a passing comment was that a *real* explosive device was left at the attack scene, with detonator rigged with a toy car guidance connector. Consider: the two rather oddly had gone home, perhaps an hour's drive away, then after being there a while, and unknown to them *already* under police watch, left the home and drove as far as within a mile and a half of the original scene at which point they were confronted and killed in the shootout. That toy car and its guidance, and therefore detonation rigging, was in the car with them. This sounds like a pre-planned intention to return to within detonator range of the bomb they'd left and set it off at the point when investigators, SWAT, first responders, etc would be right there, just as some Mideast terror bombings are set up with secondary explosions to catch people rushing to help.


----------



## poppy

M5farm said:


> WELL,WELL,WELL looks like another mooselimb lived and worked in a community and had friends and then he did what his book told him to do. Kill infidels!!!!! Its so sad the our leaders are a bunch kitty cats!!!! and their followers defend them.


And if you ask those who worked with him I would bet most would say he was a nice guy and they would never have thought he would do something like this. He may well have been a peaceful Muslim until he became radicalized at some point. Wonder what set him off? The news said he had a county job as a health inspector of restaurants. That's a pretty decent job around here, so he had no reason to be angry in that regard. Muslims have a tendency to just flip out and are unpredictable. We see it over and over.


----------



## arabian knight

Darren said:


> The second suspect is Tayyeep Bin Ardogan, a 28 year-old citizen of Qatar. Syed Farook is an American citizen.
> 
> http://pamelageller.com/2015/12/tay...ino-jihad-shooting.html/#sthash.DAlVE8Zc.dpuf


Farook married his wife in Saudi Arabia. So chances are very good SHE is not a American.


----------



## DryHeat

> county job as a health inspector of restaurants


I've seen a report interviewing a former co-worker who said she had already resigned her job recently over disputes with their management that had various of them upset, including the shooter.


----------



## Cornhusker

painterswife said:


> Yes, another crazy conspiracy post.


I wonder which side Obama will take on this one?


----------



## gibbsgirl

Cornhusker said:


> I wonder which side Obama will take on this one?


The side that wants to take gun. 

Off to check the news. Anyone heard how the people are doing that went to the hospitals?


----------



## Irish Pixie

poppy said:


> And if you ask those who worked with him I would bet most would say he was a nice guy and they would never have thought he would do something like this. He may well have been a peaceful Muslim until he became radicalized at some point. Wonder what set him off? The news said he had a county job as a health inspector of restaurants. That's a pretty decent job around here, so he had no reason to be angry in that regard. Muslims have a tendency to just flip out and are unpredictable. We see it over and over.


Can't the same be said of any mass killer? A few days ago we had a christian anti abortionist kill people.


----------



## Cornhusker

Irish Pixie said:


> Can't the same be said of any mass killer? A few days ago we had a christian anti abortionist kill people.


You know his religion?


----------



## scooter

I've never heard that he said he was a Christian!


----------



## poppy

Cornhusker said:


> You know his religion?


No, she is just blowing smoke. It's the same old garbage of trying to make Christianity equal with Islam. The nut she is referring to is typical of mentally ill murderers. He went there on a whim apparently. Nothing like the current shooting where they had accumulated tactical gear, made a bomb, and practiced an attack. With all the data collection by our government, how did they miss another Jihadi like they did the Boston bombers? The fact is collecting data is pretty useless. There are about 1000 current investigations going on in the US in all 50 states. Forty eight of those have suspects under surveillance 24/7 by groups of investigators.


----------



## painterswife

Cornhusker said:


> I wonder which side Obama will take on this one?


There are sides? Two people killed a bunch of people. I would hope we are all on the same side. It is wrong and should not have happened.


----------



## FarmerKat

This just occurred to me ... The news said he travelled to Saudi Arabia this year and they returned as husband and wife. The baby is 6 months old. He clearly must have travelled to meet her earlier as well as they could not possibly have a 6 months old if all happened this year. The rest is a speculation on my part .... I think that she was waiting for immigration clearance to travel to the US. It is pretty common when a US citizen marries someone abroad. If that is the case, she would have been vetted by immigration .... If that is the case, whoever did her background check clearly missed something.


----------



## Cornhusker

painterswife said:


> There are sides? Two people killed a bunch of people. I would hope we are all on the same side. It is wrong and should not have happened.


I would hope so too, but so many times, Obama has sided with Islam, not America.
He's probably conflicted on this one


----------



## painterswife

Cornhusker said:


> I would hope so too, but so many times, Obama has sided with Islam, not America.
> He's probably conflicted on this one


How is this about religion? Sounds like workplace violence to me. I suspect the possibility this new wife might be a bit radicalized and pushed him towards it but his target was his coworkers.


----------



## Cornhusker

That Clinton woman is on TV, apparently during the hoopla yesterday, shouting about closing the pretend gun show loophole, the nonexistent internet loophole, calling for registration (which has always lead to confiscation), and doing away with the "gun lobby"
She's pretty quick to stomp the bodies in her quest for the throne and control.
Wretched old hag.


----------



## Cornhusker

painterswife said:


> How is this about religion? Sounds like workplace violence to me. I suspect the possibility this new wife might be a bit radicalized and pushed him towards it but his target was his coworkers.


Obama will most likely call it work place violence, shy away from the terms islamic terrorists and poo poo it as a non event.
Remember Ft. Hood?


----------



## painterswife

Cornhusker said:


> Obama will most likely call it work place violence, shy away from the terms islamic terrorists and poo poo it as a non event.
> Remember Ft. Hood?


So you know what is was just because of his religion.


----------



## arabian knight

Cornhusker said:


> Obama will most likely call it work place violence, shy away from the terms islamic terrorists and poo poo it as a non event.
> Remember Ft. Hood?


Ya just because he didn't like being served PORK sandwiches was a excuse to go on a mass killing spree?


----------



## gibbsgirl

Cornhusker said:


> That Clinton woman is on TV, apparently during the hoopla yesterday, shouting about closing the pretend gun show loophole, the nonexistent internet loophole, calling for registration (which has always lead to confiscation), and doing away with the "gun lobby"
> She's pretty quick to stomp the bodies in her quest for the throne and control.
> Wretched old hag.


Well gosh cornhusker. Don't hold back now, tell us how you really feel, lol.


----------



## Cornhusker

painterswife said:


> So you know what is was just because of his religion.


No, from his previous actions and inactions.


----------



## greg273

Cornhusker said:


> You know his religion?


 What, we can't make assumptions like you do?? He was from North Carolina, a veritable hotbed of Christian extremists. Odds are he was one of them. 
See, assuming is not only fun, its easy. Very little thinking required, now I see why some here do it so often.


----------



## arabian knight

Cornhusker said:


> No, from his previous actions and inactions.


And being he didn't like pork to eat says volumes about WHAT religion he was and followed.


----------



## Cornhusker

greg273 said:


> What, we can't make assumptions like you do?? He was from North Carolina, a veritable hotbed of Christian extremists. Odds are he was one of them.
> See, assuming is not only fun, its easy. Very little thinking required, now I see why some here do it so often.


Where did I make an assumption?
Why are you defending the killers?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Cornhusker said:


> You know his religion?


His ex wife said he was Christian, but many who claim to be Christian don't really act like they are, so it's hard to say who is and who isn't


----------



## Cornhusker

arabian knight said:


> And being he didn't like pork to eat says volumes about WHAT religion he was and followed.


Some people just don't like pork


----------



## Cornhusker

Bearfootfarm said:


> His ex wife said he was Christian, but many who claim to be Christian don't really act like they are, so it's hard to say who is and who isn't


I hadn't seen that one


----------



## greg273

poppy said:


> Muslims have a tendency to just flip out and are unpredictable. We see it over and over.


 So do angry, white conservatives. We've seen it over and over. But don't worry poppy, unlike you, I am not going to judge an entire race, religion, or class of people based on the small minority of violent psychopaths and serial killers that group has produced. 
By the way, domestic terrorism is usually from rightwing nutcases, so there is that fact.


----------



## TripleD

greg273 said:


> So do angry, white conservatives. We've seen it over and over. But don't worry poppy, unlike you, I am not going to judge an entire race, religion, or class of people based on the small minority of violent psychopaths and serial killers that group has produced.
> By the way, domestic terrorism is usually from rightwing nutcases, so there is that fact.


No ? It sounds like you pretty much judged the state of North Carolina a few posts back ?????


----------



## nchobbyfarm

Irish Pixie said:


> Can't the same be said of any mass killer? A few days ago we had a christian anti abortionist kill people.


Do you have a link confirming he stated he is a Christian?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Cornhusker said:


> I hadn't seen that one


Even with my crappy dial up, the information was only 10 seconds and one click away. 



> Planned Parenthood shooter Robert Lewis Dear was a doomsday Christian who believed his religion gave him the right to do anything he wanted.


http://www.bing.com/search?q=robert...=-1&sk=&cvid=09AAD8F6EB9442A0A30B4E7ACF8D5CD4

He was also rabidly anti-Obama


----------



## Raeven

FarmerKat said:


> This just occurred to me ... The news said he travelled to Saudi Arabia this year and they returned as husband and wife. The baby is 6 months old. He clearly must have travelled to meet her earlier as well as they could not possibly have a 6 months old if all happened this year. The rest is a speculation on my part .... I think that she was waiting for immigration clearance to travel to the US. It is pretty common when a US citizen marries someone abroad. If that is the case, she would have been vetted by immigration .... If that is the case, whoever did her background check clearly missed something.


Not true. There are two ways for this process to go, and I know them well, having gone through the process myself with my late husband. One way is for the spouse to remain in their home country while vetting takes place and then receive permission to enter. However, if the spouse is already in the country before they notify ICE that they are married, then the spouse is allowed to remain in the country while the vetting process takes place. We know nothing so far about where they were at in the process or which process they utilized -- or* if they had applied for legal immigrant status for the wife at all*. She might well have just come in on a regular passport with minimal screening. She was still using her maiden name, correct?

Even if he traveled to meet her earlier, that doesn't mean they *ever* notified ICE that they were seeking legal immigrant status for her in the USA.

By the way, the name that keeps being stated in this thread for her is wrong. The female's name was Tashfeen Malik.

All guns used in the attack were legally purchased.

There are lots of things in this incident that don't fit the terrorism meme. First, there was no claim of responsibility by any organized terror group. Second, there were no reports by any person who was actually involved in the massacre reporting any language associated with terror attacks: No cries of, "Allahu Akbar!" or anything like that. Think that wouldn't have been reported by now if any witness had mentioned it? Third, although links to international terror groups are being investigated, no such links have been found so far.

For all the discussion about how "well planned" the attack was, it appears that only one part of it was: The part where they burst into a soft target area and opened fire on co-workers. The getaway and all the rest seems pretty chaotic and random, basically unplanned.

The rush to judgment and ugly xenophobia on display in this thread and others around the forum truly disgusts me. This sort of dehumanization of an entire segment of human beings is what is required to commence an extermination. Just keep painting with that big, broad brush.


----------



## arabian knight

Cornhusker said:


> Some people just don't like pork


And that was his excuse to go on a killing spree. Hmmmm


----------



## Cornhusker

Bearfootfarm said:


> Even with my crappy dial up, the information was only 10 seconds and one click away.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bing.com/search?q=robert...=-1&sk=&cvid=09AAD8F6EB9442A0A30B4E7ACF8D5CD4
> 
> He was also rabidly anti-Obama


Lots of people are "rabidly" anti-Obama, just as he is rabidly anti-America


----------



## Cornhusker

arabian knight said:


> And that was his excuse to go on a killing spree. Hmmmm


I don't know what his excuse is yet
I'm guessing act of terror


----------



## gibbsgirl

greg273 said:


> So do angry, white conservatives. We've seen it over and over. But don't worry poppy, unlike you, I am not going to judge an entire race, religion, or class of people based on the small minority of violent psychopaths and serial killers that group has produced.
> By the way, domestic terrorism is usually from rightwing nutcases, so there is that fact.


Where's the info on it usually being right wing terrorists? Seems like from what I've read it's rather a mixed lot.


----------



## arabian knight

*SAN BERNADINO KILLINGS WERE OVER PORK BEING SERVED AT HOLIDAY EVENT! "Insult to Islam"*


> Today's killings in San Bernadino, CA took place because a County Employee who was Muslim went berserk over Pork being served at the Christmas Party event!
> 
> According to eye witnesses who were in the Inland Resource Center in Loma Linda, CA and attending the Christmas Party where the attacks took place, Muslim employees of the county had previously asked that Pork products not be served. When one of those Muslims arrived at the event and saw that, in addition to many other foods, Bacon and Pork Sausage was being served, he angrily confronted other party-goers - allegedly saying "I'm tired of these insults to Islam" - and then stormed out of the event.
> 
> Less than an hour later, he returned with two others in a pre-planned revenge attack and started shooting.


https://www.superstation95.com/index.php/world/604


----------



## nchobbyfarm

Bearfootfarm said:


> Even with my crappy dial up, the information was only 10 seconds and one click away.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bing.com/search?q=robert...=-1&sk=&cvid=09AAD8F6EB9442A0A30B4E7ACF8D5CD4
> 
> He was also rabidly anti-Obama


As story using another story quoting divorce papers from a wife who wanted to become an ex 22 years ago. That's thin. The other links in your provided search quoted recent neighbors saying he didn't discuss religion.


----------



## gibbsgirl

arabian knight said:


> *SAN BERNADINO KILLINGS WERE OVER PORK BEING SERVED AT HOLIDAY EVENT! "Insult to Islam"*
> 
> 
> https://www.superstation95.com/index.php/world/604


Be interesting to see if that is true.

When I saw he was a restaurant inspector, I did wonder if had conflicts with that job and inspecting places that served pork or other food that was not OK by the Muslim halal rules.


----------



## gibbsgirl

This article was pretty good. Talked about it being a mishmosh of weird things that seem to make this fit sorta into several different motives, but not quite fit perfectly into one comoared to other events that have been investigated.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/0...hooting.html?referer=https://news.google.com/


----------



## gibbsgirl

I have read in a few places that he did leave the party angry and then returned as a shooter.

Really would like to hear from witnesses about the angry exchange. 

It's pretty messed up to imagine he requested certain things for a work party and was on standby to kill people if they weren't done.

If that's true, that's a really horrific motive. Kinda the nightmare version of the silly joke memos about office parties being a pain in the rear to plan because everyone is offended by something.

If it is at all related to daesh, that's terrible too. So many businesses are busy planning events for workers thus time of year. What a rotten thing to attack people for.


----------



## greg273

gibbsgirl said:


> Be interesting to see if that is true.
> 
> When I saw he was a restaurant inspector, I did wonder if had conflicts with that job and inspecting places that served pork or other food that was not OK by the Muslim halal rules.


 That website doesn't have a great history of 'truth telling'. The author goes by the name of 'USReporter'. 
According to that click-bait tabloid site, a giant wave is about to destroy Buffalo, New York. Given that story was 3 weeks old, and they haven't taken it down, tells me a lot about their disdain for the truth and their lack of integrity.


----------



## Cornhusker

greg273 said:


> That website doesn't have a great history of 'truth telling'. The author goes by the name of 'USReporter'.
> According to that click-bait tabloid site, a giant wave is about to destroy Buffalo, New York. Given that story was 3 weeks old, and they haven't taken it down, tells me a lot about their disdain for the truth and their lack of integrity.


Yes, we should only believe government controlled web sites and news sources.


----------



## FarmerKat

Raeven said:


> Not true. There are two ways for this process to go, and I know them well, having gone through the process myself with my late husband. One way is for the spouse to remain in their home country while vetting takes place and then receive permission to enter. However, if the spouse is already in the country before they notify ICE that they are married, then the spouse is allowed to remain in the country while the vetting process takes place. We know nothing so far about where they were at in the process or which process they utilized -- or* if they had applied for legal immigrant status for the wife at all*. She might well have just come in on a regular passport with minimal screening. She was still using her maiden name, correct?
> 
> Even if he traveled to meet her earlier, that doesn't mean they *ever* notified ICE that they were seeking legal immigrant status for her in the USA.
> 
> By the way, the name that keeps being stated in this thread for her is wrong. The female's name was Tashfeen Malik.
> 
> All guns used in the attack were legally purchased.
> 
> There are lots of things in this incident that don't fit the terrorism meme. First, there was no claim of responsibility by any organized terror group. Second, there were no reports by any person who was actually involved in the massacre reporting any language associated with terror attacks: No cries of, "Allahu Akbar!" or anything like that. Think that wouldn't have been reported by now if any witness had mentioned it? Third, although links to international terror groups are being investigated, no such links have been found so far.
> 
> For all the discussion about how "well planned" the attack was, it appears that only one part of it was: The part where they burst into a soft target area and opened fire on co-workers. The getaway and all the rest seems pretty chaotic and random, basically unplanned.
> 
> The rush to judgment and ugly xenophobia on display in this thread and others around the forum truly disgusts me. This sort of dehumanization of an entire segment of human beings is what is required to commence an extermination. Just keep painting with that big, broad brush.


You may be completely right. As I stated in my post "the rest is speculation on my part". I am well aware that the spouse can be waiting for the processing by ICE in the US. But I was going on media reports that he returned with her as wife from a trip* this* year to Saudi Arabia. Since they had a child that is 6 months old (based on media reports), even if he traveled to Saudi Arabia on January 1, 2015, they could not have a 6 months old baby who was left with relatives or baby sitter. Even the odds of having a premie who is 6 months old are nearly impossible (she would have to deliver the baby at 4 months gestation for everything to happen "this year"). Therefore I speculated that she was waiting for paperwork. 

I am not familiar with Arabic culture enough to know how last names are chosen. In some cultures, family members do not have the same last name. I also know many women who chose to retain their maiden name while married (for a variety of reasons) so I never gave a 2nd thought to the name.


----------



## MO_cows

greg273 said:


> So do angry, white conservatives. We've seen it over and over. But don't worry poppy, unlike you, I am not going to judge an entire race, religion, or class of people based on the small minority of violent psychopaths and serial killers that group has produced.
> By the way, domestic terrorism is usually from rightwing nutcases, so there is that fact.


So you're far too superior of a human being to judge anyone, but by the way domestic terrorists tend to be right wing? The irony is almost painful.


----------



## greg273

MO_cows said:


> So you're far too superior of a human being to judge anyone, but by the way domestic terrorists tend to be right wing? The irony is almost painful.


When did I say I wouldn't judge anyone? That is NOT what I said. I said I don't judge an entire race or religion based on the actions of a few deranged individuals, be they Muslims, or paranoid rightwing extremists.


----------



## po boy

nchobbyfarm said:


> As story using another story quoting divorce papers from a wife who wanted to become an ex 22 years ago. That's thin. The other links in your provided search quoted recent neighbors saying he didn't discuss religion.


From BFF's link
âHe claims to be a Christian and is extremely evangelistic, *but does not follow the Bible in his actions. He says that as long as he believes he will be saved, he can do whatever he pleases. He is obsessed with the world coming to an end.â*
Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2602313/robert-lewis-dear-doomsday-christian-believed-being-saved-meant-he-could-do-anything"

Doesn't appear to be a Christian, but proclaimed to be one.


----------



## greg273

Cornhusker said:


> Yes, we should only believe government controlled web sites and news sources.


 No, we should be skeptical of all info... especially sites that are clearly tabloid clickbait with outlandish, obviously false stories. So how is Buffalo, New York doing? According to 'Superstation95', they were about to be imminently destroyed by a giant wave. 
This is also the site that said 'Putin was sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria', and 'Turkey blocked Russia from sailing through the Dardenelles'. Pure BS designed to drive web hits. 
Although they may turn out to be telling the truth on this latest thing, but given their track record, I wouldn't hold out much hope of that.


----------



## Raeven

FarmerKat said:


> You may be completely right. As I stated in my post "the rest is speculation on my part". I am well aware that the spouse can be waiting for the processing by ICE in the US. But I was going on media reports that he returned with her as wife from a trip* this* year to Saudi Arabia. Since they had a child that is 6 months old (based on media reports), even if he traveled to Saudi Arabia on January 1, 2015, they could not have a 6 months old baby who was left with relatives or baby sitter. Even the odds of having a premie who is 6 months old are nearly impossible (she would have to deliver the baby at 4 months gestation for everything to happen "this year"). Therefore I speculated that she was waiting for paperwork.
> 
> I am not familiar with Arabic culture enough to know how last names are chosen. In some cultures, family members do not have the same last name. I also know many women who chose to retain their maiden name while married (for a variety of reasons) so I never gave a 2nd thought to the name.


And I'm simply pointing out that speculating about the vetting process with respect to this woman at this point is irresponsible. We have no idea if there was any vetting process going on at all.

Just because he returned and she was a wife doesn't mean ICE had any idea she was a spouse. We just don't know, at this point. Did they travel together? Do you know? I don't. Was she pregnant but didn't look pregnant? No agency administers pregnancy tests before someone enters the US on regular travel documents. If the baby is 6 months old, it was likely born in June. If she traveled alone in January, the pregnancy might not even have been obvious.

I think what you intended to do with your speculation was imply that the vetting process is inadequate. I'm just calling you on that.

As I have said in other posts around this forum, people coming into this country by way of travel documents alone is a genuinely dangerous practice in our quest for total safety from terrorism (which will never be achieved). There is virtually no vetting process for visitors. That's 20 million people per year. And if you try to vet them in a thorough, meaningful way, you bring business to a screeching halt. 

We are going to have to live with some risk.


----------



## greg273

gibbsgirl said:


> Where's the info on it usually being right wing terrorists? Seems like from what I've read it's rather a mixed lot.





> among the 27 fatal terror attacks inflicted in this country since 9/11, 20 were committed by domestic right-wing extremists. (The other seven attacks were committed by domestic jihadists, not by foreign terrorist organizations.) Of the 77 people killed in these 27 incidents, two-thirds died at the hands of anti-abortion fanatics, âChristian Identityâ zealots, white anti-Semites, or other right-wing militants.


 http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...igious_extremists_bred_in_north_carolina.html

Or if you don't like 'Slate', there are plenty of other sources who have come to the same conclusion.


----------



## TripleD

SO basically so few Muslims in the population did 25 % of the terror attacks?


----------



## greg273

TripleD said:


> SO basically so few Muslims in the population did 25 % of the terror attacks?


 Yes, and the rightwing nutcases did 75% of them. So the odds of being attacked by a Muslim are less than the odds of being attacked by a rightwinger. 

Oh, but there is less muslims, so that must mean they are more violent! Ok, but your odds of being attacked by a Muslim are still FAR less than being attacked by a rightwinger. Actually, getting hit by lightning is far more likely than either scenario.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

po boy said:


> From BFF's link
> âHe claims to be a Christian and is extremely evangelistic, *but does not follow the Bible in his actions. He says that as long as he believes he will be saved, he can do whatever he pleases. He is obsessed with the world coming to an end.â*
> Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2602313/robert-lewis-dear-doomsday-christian-believed-being-saved-meant-he-could-do-anything"
> 
> *Doesn't appear to be a Christian, but proclaimed to be one*.


 I see that a lot.

If *he* proclaimed to be one, he has to be taken at his word even if his actions say otherwise.

What he spoke of to his neighbors really means little.
There are many things I do that I don't discuss with the neighbors.


----------



## TripleD

greg273 said:


> Yes, and the rightwing nutcases did 75% of them. So the odds of being attacked by a Muslim are less than the odds of being attacked by a rightwinger.
> 
> Oh, but there is less muslims, so that must mean they are more violent! Ok, but your odds of being attacked by a Muslim are still FAR less than being attacked by a rightwinger. Actually, getting hit by lightning is far more likely than either scenario.


How many rightwingers do we have here ? You go find a total on them and get back to me....


----------



## po boy

Bearfootfarm said:


> I see that a lot.
> 
> *If he proclaimed to be one, he has to be taken at his word even if his actions say otherwise.
> *
> What he spoke of to his neighbors really means little.
> There are many things I do that I don't discuss with the neighbors.


For Political purposes?


----------



## no really

greg273 said:


> Yes, and the rightwing nutcases did 75% of them. So the odds of being attacked by a Muslim are less than the odds of being attacked by a rightwinger.
> 
> Oh, but there is less muslims, so that must mean they are more violent! Ok, but your odds of being attacked by a Muslim are still FAR less than being attacked by a rightwinger. Actually, getting hit by lightning is far more likely than either scenario.


I am trying to understand your point here. Do we as a nation discount terrorism from one group until the numbers are more equal to another? Seems being proactive on all possible terrorist activities would be more realistic. 

ISIS became a major player when IMHO were discounted as unimportant, now look at the damage.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

po boy said:


> For Political purposes?


For reality.
If he says he's one, I'n not going to argue the point


----------



## greg273

no really said:


> I am trying to understand your point here. Do we as a nation discount terrorism from one group until the numbers are more equal to another? Seems being proactive on all possible terrorist activities would be more realistic.
> 
> ISIS became a major player when IMHO were discounted as unimportant, now look at the damage.


 The point is the same as it has been, not all Muslims are terrorists, just as not all rightwingers are terrorists, despite the tiny minority of sociopaths that commit violent actions.

As far as 'ISIS being discounted as unimportant', when was that? The whole 'JV' thing Obama said was in reference to ALQUEDA, which was indeed reduced to a shadow of its former self. That doesn't mean they are incapable of doing damage. Far from it, a wounded, cornered beast is still capable of inflicting damage, even in a weakened state.


----------



## po boy

greg273 said:


> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...igious_extremists_bred_in_north_carolina.html
> 
> Or if you don't like 'Slate', there are plenty of other sources who have come to the same conclusion.


Wow! left wingers have never attacked anyone!


----------



## greg273

po boy said:


> Wow! left wingers have never attacked anyone!


 Do you continually miss the point on purpose, or is there something else going on?

Leftwing terrorists like 'Earthfirst' and others have committed many many attacks over the years, and caused MILLIONS of dollars worth of damage.


----------



## TripleD

po boy said:


> Wow! left wingers have never attacked anyone!


Of course not they are a JV team.


----------



## no really

greg273 said:


> The point is the same as it has been, not all Muslims are terrorists, just as not all rightwingers are terrorists, despite the tiny minority of sociopaths that commit violent actions.
> 
> As far as 'ISIS being discounted as unimportant', when was that? The whole 'JV' thing Obama said was in reference to ALQUEDA, which was indeed reduced to a shadow of its former self. That doesn't mean they are incapable of doing damage. Far from it, a wounded, cornered beast is still capable of inflicting damage, even in a weakened state.


The transcript shows that the president was asked about al Qaeda-affiliated groups in Iraq, Syria and Africa, which would include ISIS, when the president made his remark about the âJV team.â That was Earnestâs point when he said the president âwas not singling outâ ISIS. But, as the transcript shows, Remnick followed up his initial question with a direct question about the âJV teamâ that âjust took over Fallujah,â a reference to ISIS. On Jan. 3, the New York Times reported that âSunni militants of Al Qaeda â¦ members of the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, or ISISâ had planted their flag over Fallujah.

The president can make the case that he wasnât referring only to ISIS when he made his remark about a junior varsity team. But he cannot say that he âwasnât specifically referring to ISIL,â because The New Yorker article and the transcript of the interview make it clear that the context of the presidentâs remark included ISIS.

http://www.factcheck.org/2014/09/obama-fumbles-jv-team-question/


On the not all Muslims are terrorists nor are all right wingers terrorists I agree.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

The shooter were NOT (as I suspected) wearing "body armor"
They were wearing LBE vests.

They fired about 70 rounds in the initial shooting and about 75 in the final shootout with police.

They had 1400 rounds of 223 in the car and several hundred rounds of 9mm There were 2500 rounds of 223 at the home.

There were pipe bombs found in the house as well as thousands of rounds of ammo in 9mm and 22 LR

I'm sure this will be used as an example of the "need to control ammo purchase amounts" (Common sense, right?)

There were no "Go Pro" cameras involved.

This is from a press conference on TV right now, so I have no link, but I'm sure this will all be available online very shortly for confirmation


----------



## Farmerga

Bearfootfarm said:


> The shooter were NOT (as I suspected) wearing "body armor"
> They were wearing LBE vests.
> 
> They fired about 70 rounds in the initial shooting and about 75 in the final shootout with police.
> 
> They had 1400 rounds of 223 in the car and several hundred rounds of 9mm There were 2500 rounds of 223 at the home.
> 
> There were pipe bombs found in the house as well as thousands of rounds of ammo in 9mm and 22 LR
> 
> I'm sure this will be used as an example of the "need to control ammo purchase amounts" (Common sense, right?)
> 
> There were no "Go Pro" cameras involved.
> 
> This is from a press conference on TV right now, so I have no link, but I'm sure this will all be available online very shortly for confirmation


Well you know what they say: "Don't let a good crisis go to waste."


----------



## HDRider

Religion of Peace.


----------



## MO_cows

Bearfootfarm said:


> The shooter were NOT (as I suspected) wearing "body armor"
> They were wearing LBE vests.
> 
> They fired about 70 rounds in the initial shooting and about 75 in the final shootout with police.
> 
> They had 1400 rounds of 223 in the car and several hundred rounds of 9mm There were 2500 rounds of 223 at the home.
> 
> There were pipe bombs found in the house as well as thousands of rounds of ammo in 9mm and 22 LR
> 
> I'm sure this will be used as an example of the "need to control ammo purchase amounts" (Common sense, right?)
> 
> There were no "Go Pro" cameras involved.
> 
> This is from a press conference on TV right now, so I have no link, but I'm sure this will all be available online very shortly for confirmation


Good info, thanks.

The average person couldn't tell any difference between "body armor" and "LBE vest". Both are protective, neither common in the civilian world. I could see how it would be easy to get that wrong in the reporting.


----------



## Declan

Bearfootfarm said:


> I'm sure this will be used as an example of the "need to control ammo purchase amounts" (Common sense, right?)


Do you personally need 1,600 rounds at a time?


----------



## Cornhusker

MO_cows said:


> So you're far too superior of a human being to judge anyone, but by the way domestic terrorists tend to be right wing? The irony is almost painful.


It's pretty funny too.
The left is so full of hate, they'll side with muslims against Americans, just like their president


----------



## poppy

painterswife said:


> So you know what is was just because of his religion.


Good grief. They were radical Islamists, period. He had phone and social media contacts with known terror suspects. Try as you might, there is zero chance this was workplace violence. It was terrorism. Any person mentally on edge might get mad at his boss or coworker and shoot them. It happens. How many have you EVER seen where a guy gets disgruntled at work, storms off mad, and comes back shortly decked out in tactical gear with his wife decked out the same, has a bomb, and shoots this many people? It don't happen. This is a classic terror attack on a soft target by radical Muslims no matter how bad you and Obama wish it wasn't.


----------



## TripleD

Declan said:


> Do you personally need 1,600 rounds at a time?


3 nephews can go thru that much on any weekend......


----------



## Farmerga

Declan said:


> Do you personally need 1,600 rounds at a time?



Yep, I have gone through over 2000 rounds in a matter of a couple of days at the range with the family. Plus, if the government starts to tell me that I don't, I do, and more.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Declan said:


> Do you personally *need* 1,600 rounds at a time?


That's a pointless question.
If I don't break any laws, it's no one's business what I own.

I'm not playing that silly word game


----------



## Raeven

Ok, now we have some facts about her entry into the USA.

The arrived together in July of 2014 but she was not yet his wife. They did not say when they actually married. She was here on a K-1 visa *but not at the time of entry into the USA*, so the vetting process would be in process, but far from completed. She came in on a Pakistani passport.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

poppy said:


> Good grief. They were radical Islamists, period. *He had phone and social media contacts with known terror suspects.* Try as you might, there is zero chance this was workplace violence. It was terrorism. Any person mentally on edge might get mad at his boss or coworker and shoot them. It happens. How many have you EVER seen where a guy gets disgruntled at work, storms off mad, and comes back shortly decked out in tactical gear with his wife decked out the same, has a bomb, and shoots this many people? It don't happen. This is a classic terror attack on a soft target by radical Muslims no matter how bad you and Obama wish it wasn't.


You need to report that to the FBI agent who was just on TV who said they had found no evidence of that so far. 

He will be glad to have your sources (as would we)


----------



## FarmerKat

Raeven said:


> Ok, now we have some facts about her entry into the USA.
> 
> The arrived together in July of 2014 but she was not yet his wife. They did not say when they actually married. She was here on a K-1 visa *but not at the time of entry into the USA*, so the vetting process would be in process, but far from completed. She came in on a Pakistani passport.


Thanks for posting the info.

As for my prior post ... yes, I do believe the vetting process is not adequate. I have been through it myself. I don't happen to be a terrorist but I do not see how asking someone to say (albeit under oath) that they do not plan terrorist attacks against the US is going to stop them from doing it. It's not like no one ever lies ....


----------



## gibbsgirl

greg273 said:


> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...igious_extremists_bred_in_north_carolina.html
> 
> Or if you don't like 'Slate', there are plenty of other sources who have come to the same conclusion.


That article seems to be cherry picking crimes to draw a conclusion that south and north Carolina are stastically the source of terrorists and extremists.

The interesting thing to me is the blurred line between how we label crimes. And, the actual conviction labels even further blurr how crimes are categorized IMO.

But, in reading about a lot of tragic crimes over the years, IMO there is not a common thread that links or umbrellas them all. We've had tons of crimes committed by a variety of people for a variety of reasons. 

But, when new tragedies occur, the media tries to sort things out to make sense of them. People want to know why because they want to feel like they can stay safe and know clearly what the dangers are.

As far as white criminals, IMO they've run the gambit from prolife, pro 2nd amendment, racism, antigovt, revenge for bullying, etc. But, there are arguments to be made about it being difficult to fit those people into the confines of one particular group of origin.

As far as Muslim crimes, IMO, they seem to consistently be related to victimizing people seen as being an enemy of Islam. And, that is unfortunate. I don't wish for more crime, but it would be reassuring IMO if more crimes by Muslims were shown to be unrelated to them being Muslim.


----------



## Raeven

I think it's extremely important to draw the distinction between homegrown terrorism instigated by people who are incidentally Muslim (or Christian or Pastafarian), and terrorism brought to our shores by foreign terror interests. 

In the instant case, the authorities have said that so far, they have found no links to foreign terror interests. It doesn't mean the perpetrators weren't influenced by events abroad -- but that does not make it a foreign terrorist event.


----------



## Raeven

FarmerKat said:


> Thanks for posting the info.
> 
> As for my prior post ... yes, I do believe the vetting process is not adequate. I have been through it myself. I don't happen to be a terrorist but I do not see how asking someone to say (albeit under oath) that they do not plan terrorist attacks against the US is going to stop them from doing it. It's not like no one ever lies ....


Or, the individual may not become radicalized until some time after they entered the USA. Tell me; what is the answer to it?


----------



## HDRider

If belief in a religion drives thousands to perpetrate terror they are connected by their religion.


----------



## Raeven

HDRider said:


> If belief in a religion drives thousands to perpetrate terror they are connected by their religion.


Are you a Christian?


----------



## MO_cows

FarmerKat said:


> Thanks for posting the info.
> 
> As for my prior post ... yes, *I do believe the vetting process is not adequate. I have been through it myself.* I don't happen to be a terrorist but I do not see how asking someone to say (albeit under oath) that they do not plan terrorist attacks against the US is going to stop them from doing it. It's not like no one ever lies ....



Worth repeating!


----------



## Raeven

MO_cows said:


> Worth repeating!


I've been through it myself, too, with my husband. And I disagree. It's a heck of a lot more than just swearing an oath. Is that worth repeating, too?


----------



## gibbsgirl

Raeven said:


> I think it's extremely important to draw the distinction between homegrown terrorism instigated by people who are incidentally Muslim (or Christian or Pastafarian), and terrorism brought to our shores by foreign terror interests.
> 
> In the instant case, the authorities have said that so far, they have found no links to foreign terror interests. It doesn't mean the perpetrators weren't influenced by events abroad -- but that does not make it a foreign terrorist event.


I agree. I am much more interested in info about who were a criminals influences and associates. From what I've read in recent years, plenty of terrorists, extremists, and similar that are Muslim commit crimes in their places of birth which is not always in the middle East. Nationality is not proof of much. The common thread I've seen is that the people are found to have either traveled to the middle East, or have been following online jihad groups, or been mentored or attended teachings of mosque/clerics that are supportive of jihad, or some combination of those three.


----------



## Raeven

gibbsgirl said:


> I agree. I am much more interested in info about who were a criminals influences and associates. From what I've read in recent years, plenty of terrorists, extremists, and similar that are Muslim commit crimes in their places of birth which is not always in the middle East. Nationality is not proof of much. The common thread I've seen is that the people are found to have either traveled to the middle East, or have been following online jihad groups, or been mentored or attended teachings of mosque/clerics that are supportive of jihad, or some combination of those three.


Exactly. Which is why it is far more urgent for us to tighten up entry into the US via visitor visas than to worry about the vetting process for refugees. The point of my post about the entry of the female involved in the San Bernardino shootings is that *she arrived on a visitor's visa*, as do 20 million other people every year.

Not one single Middle Eastern refugee that has gone through our vetting process has committed a terrorist act on our shores. So it would appear that despite people's opinions, the vetting process works just fine.

If there is any terrorist connection found between these perpetrators and the Middle East, how would we have caught it? He was an American-born citizen with no criminal record. She was granted entry on a regular visitor's visa on a Pakistani passport and had no criminal record, either.

So... what realistic solution would there have been to stop this situation?


----------



## gibbsgirl

This article says officials have stated, the shooter had contact with people believed to be associated with terrorism. It's pretty vague though about the details.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/03/us/san-bernardino-shooting/index.html


----------



## Farmerga

Bearfootfarm said:


> You need to report that to the FBI agent who was just on TV who said they had found no evidence of that so far.
> 
> He will be glad to have your sources (as would we)


 Here you go: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/au...hat-killed-14/ar-AAfYExB?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp

From the article: 



> CNN, citing law enforcement sources, said Farook had been "radicalized." CNN also said he had been in touch through telephone and social media with more than one international terrorism suspect who was being investigated by the FBI.


 Take that for what it is worth. Personally, IMO, the likes of Obama, Clinton, Bush and Trump are a greater threat to my personal rights and freedoms than anyone in ISIS or other terror orgs.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Raeven said:


> Exactly. Which is why it is far more urgent for us to tighten up entry into the US via visitor visas than to worry about the vetting process for refugees. The point of my post about the entry of the female involved in the San Bernardino shootings is that *she arrived on a visitor's visa*, as do 20 million other people every year.
> 
> Not one single Middle Eastern refugee that has gone through our vetting process has committed a terrorist act on our shores. So it would appear that despite people's opinions, the vetting process works just fine.
> 
> If there is any terrorist connection found between these perpetrators and the Middle East, how would we have caught it? He was an American-born citizen with no criminal record. She was granted entry on a regular visitor's visa on a Pakistani passport and had no criminal record, either.
> 
> So... what realistic solution would there have been to stop this situation?


At this point my opinion is that the world and our nation are both in a rather precarious situation related to security, economics, national identity, etc that seems to be very affected by the flow of populations across foreign borders whether illegal or through any number of legal categories. I think that if us, and other nations are to effectively get things underway control that means birders get closed and people be located and processed to either stay or go who are not citizens everywhere.

I am more invested in what the USA dies to make this happen here. Ither nations gave to make their own decisions about what they should do.


----------



## Raeven

gibbsgirl said:


> This article says officials have stated, the shooter had contact with people believed to be associated with terrorism. It's pretty vague though about the details.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/03/us/san-bernardino-shooting/index.html


That may well be true. But it still doesn't follow that the terrorist act he committed was sponsored by foreign terrorists, though it may well have been encouraged by them.

Either way, with him as an American citizen and her here via a visitor's visa, again, I will ask: How would we have stopped it?


----------



## Raeven

gibbsgirl said:


> At this point my opinion is that the world and our nation are both in a rather precarious situation related to security, economics, national identity, etc that seems to be very affected by the flow of populations across foreign borders whether illegal or through any number of legal categories. I think that if us, and other nations are to effectively get things underway control that means birders get closed and people be located and processed to either stay or go who are not citizens everywhere.
> 
> I am more invested in what the USA dies to make this happen here. Ither nations gave to make their own decisions about what they should do.


So you think it's realistic to lock down our borders and prevent 20 million people a year from traveling to other shores, be it them to us or us to them?

Might that policy have some impact on how business is conducted, our tourism industry, the tourism industries of other nations, how happy our own citizens would be at the idea that they could no longer travel freely between other countries and our own?


----------



## MO_cows

Raeven said:


> I've been through it myself, too, with my husband. And I disagree. It's a heck of a lot more than just swearing an oath. Is that worth repeating, too?


Yes, it is. Firsthand information is always best. 

I would also be interested to know the years when you and Farmerkat went thru the process. Pre and post 9/11, perhaps made a difference?


----------



## Sourdough

You will NOT stop it. It will not prevail ultimately, but we are going to have a long period of hell. Things will continue to build and escalate upto one or more massive events. The only thing you can do is put yourself into as safe of a position as possible, then live your life. I keep saying over and over, that people have no grasp of how "HORRIFIC" it is going to get. 



Raeven said:


> again, I will ask: How would we have stopped it?


----------



## FarmerKat

Raeven said:


> I've been through it myself, too, with my husband. And I disagree. It's a heck of a lot more than just swearing an oath. Is that worth repeating, too?


I have not said it was an easy process ... but I really do not think that immigration authorities here have looked into who my friends/family in my home country were (they have not interviewed any of my family members overseas or in the US). I was fingerprinted every step of the way and I am sure my finger prints were run against databases here in the US. But the only thing that I was asked to provide from my birth country was a certificate from the local police department showing that I had no criminal record. That may mean something from a country with similar laws/values as US but in other cultures things that are a crime in the US are accepted norm. At my naturalization interview, I was asked 2 questions - who is the president of the US and who is the 3rd in line to become president if both president and vice president die. I was also asked to write "today is a nice day" to show that I can write in English. After studying for months and worrying about this interview, it was a joke. 


Regarding your question how to find those who radicalize after living in the US ... 

I do not think that any government agencies can figure out who is radicalized unless they come across links to known terrorists. I think that families and friends are the only ones who could possibly tell and it seems that the terrorists are really good at hiding that from their family/friends. 

I read recently there was a group of family members of youth who were radicalized (and traveled to ME to join ISIS) who were trying to educate others on what to look for. They had no idea how radical their children became but in hindsight they said there were signs they should have paid attention to.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Raeven said:


> That may well be true. But it still doesn't follow that the terrorist act he committed was sponsored by foreign terrorists, though it may well have been encouraged by them.
> 
> Either way, with him as an American citizen and her here via a visitor's visa, again, I will ask: How would we have stopped it?


Tightening up border control would require we expel some people, and the flow of people would have to constrict because of the workload limits. There'd be less people to deal with and more opportunity to check things like communicable diseases, personal history and whether people were here to give of themselves for our country or freeload because they had no preparation to assimilate.

Less foreign people frees up more resources to follow up on citizens who may commit treason.

Also, from what I've read, Isis and similar groups only want to sponsor fighters within their own conquered lands. They are pushing all other terrorism done in the name of Islam to be perpetrated by any Muslims willing. And, those Muslims are expected to use their own resources and abilities to plan, finance, and carry out jihad. That's why they are making use of social media, online tutorials, networks of mosques. And have a 24 helpline for jihadists to phone in for tech support. That whole system is to support freelancers and entrepreneurship in jihad. Not to report and receive orders for missions.


----------



## FarmerKat

MO_cows said:


> Yes, it is. Firsthand information is always best.
> 
> I would also be interested to know the years when you and Farmerkat went thru the process. Pre and post 9/11, perhaps made a difference?


Both. I was on an intra-company transferee visa during 9/11. I have already applied for a green card and was waiting to be invited for an interview when 9/11 happened. That stalled the process quite a bit. I started my immigration process in early 1999, got a green card in 2002 and became a citizen in 2009. I basically went from one step to another except for the 5 year waiting period from the time I got my green card until one can apply to become a citizen. I was eligible to apply for naturalization in 2007 and it took about 18 months to become a citizen.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> Quote:
> CNN, *citing law enforcement sources*, said Farook had been "radicalized." CNN also said he had been in touch through telephone and social media with more than one international terrorism suspect who was being investigated by the FBI.


That's CNN citing an unnamed source.
I watched and heard an FBI agent/spokesman on TV say they had found no conclusive evidence of any such contacts so far and they are still investigaiting.


----------



## HDRider

Raeven said:


> That may well be true. But it still doesn't follow that the terrorist act he committed was sponsored by foreign terrorists, though it may well have been encouraged by them.
> 
> Either way, with him as an American citizen and her here via a visitor's visa, again, I will ask: How would we have stopped it?


By recognizing who and what the enemy is. The enemy is plainly Sharia law.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

HDRider said:


> By recognizing who and what the enemy is. The enemy is plainly Sharia law.


We don't have Sharia law here.
We had the shooting.
Your answer is obviously incorrect


----------



## gibbsgirl

Raeven said:


> So you think it's realistic to lock down our borders and prevent 20 million people a year from traveling to other shores, be it them to us or us to them?
> 
> Might that policy have some impact on how business is conducted, our tourism industry, the tourism industries of other nations, how happy our own citizens would be at the idea that they could no longer travel freely between other countries and our own?


Sometimes we have to realize you can't always have your cake and eat it too. We have gone to far in the extreme of being relaxed with our borders and standards for admittance here. It's been a choice related to both exploiting our ego in overconfidence and our greed for profiting.

Yes, I'm sure that doing such would appear extreme since to do it successfully would require a big swing back away from the extreme we are in now.

No I do not think long term it will do damage that we can't recover from. Not doing it will definitely damage us further to an unrecoverable scale.

Fwiw, our policies regarding our standards for admission here whether for travel or residency, and our consequences for failure to comply with such laws, as well as for committing crimes while within our borders, absolutely pale in comparison to those of many other nations. And, it has not been an epic disaster for them to put their nations needs as a priority over the needs of foreigners.


----------



## Farmerga

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's CNN citing an unnamed source.
> I watched and heard an FBI agent/spokesman on TV say they had found no conclusive evidence of any such contacts so far and they are still investigaiting.


 
It is quite possible that the FBI agent knows more than he is saying. It is also quite possible that the unnamed sources pulled the info out of their rear ends. It is a mystery. That is why I said "take it for what it is worth".


----------



## Woolieface

Farmerga said:


> Here you go: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/au...hat-killed-14/ar-AAfYExB?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp
> 
> From the article:
> 
> 
> 
> Take that for what it is worth. Personally, IMO, the likes of Obama, Clinton, Bush and Trump are a greater threat to my personal rights and freedoms than anyone in ISIS or other terror orgs.


We should just maybe consider it all one and the same deal.


----------



## Woolieface

greg273 said:


> Yes, and the rightwing nutcases did 75% of them. So the odds of being attacked by a Muslim are less than the odds of being attacked by a rightwinger.
> 
> Oh, but there is less muslims, so that must mean they are more violent! Ok, but your odds of being attacked by a Muslim are still FAR less than being attacked by a rightwinger. Actually, getting hit by lightning is far more likely than either scenario.


Why is the label right wing "nutcases"? Don't liberals have any nuts? :gaptooth:


----------



## Cornhusker

Declan said:


> Do you personally need 1,600 rounds at a time?


Yes
That's not a lot


----------



## Woolieface

gibbsgirl said:


> I have read in a few places that he did leave the party angry and then returned as a shooter.
> 
> Really would like to hear from witnesses about the angry exchange.
> 
> *It's pretty messed up to imagine he requested certain things for a work party and was on standby to kill people if they weren't done.
> *
> If that's true, that's a really horrific motive. Kinda the nightmare version of the silly joke memos about office parties being a pain in the rear to plan because everyone is offended by something.
> 
> If it is at all related to daesh, that's terrible too. So many businesses are busy planning events for workers thus time of year. What a rotten thing to attack people for.


 To me, that's just batfeces crazy. It makes no sense, even if someone was upset enough about pork to kill....this seems above and beyond just a little off one's rocker and to have body armor, military weapons, an armored vehicle all ready and waiting. I just don't believe we're going to privy to the true story here.


----------



## gibbsgirl

I always laugh when someone comments about a "stockpiled cache" of ammunition and they seem to think you'd need a moving truck or bunker or something to contain it. But, I reality often it could fit in a purse or a few shoe boxes or other such container size.

They get used up practicing. Same logic for why you have multiple bats when you play baseball and want a pitching machine to practice your swing over and over and over. But, hey why practice shooting, right? It's not like it's really important to know what you're doing for your safety and other, right?

Or when someone gets upset about how many firearms a person has. Why do you need more than one? That's so bizarre, unusual, extreme. I'm like, yep, sure is. That's why that whole row of gun safes in rural king are all single weapon storage lockers. Cause only a crazy bad guy would dare have more than one. Not!

Or when someone thinks a person must have a twisted fascination with knives cause they have more than two. I want to take them into their kitchen and ask, how many knives are in here? I think you're being over the top if you have more than two for each person who lives here.

Such a stigma.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Woolieface said:


> To me, that's just batfeces crazy. It makes no sense, even if someone was upset enough about pork to kill....this seems above and beyond just a little off one's rocker and to have body armor, military weapons, an armored vehicle all ready and waiting. I just don't believe we're going to privy to the true story here.


I doubt we all ever get the full, clear, true story on anything. We get what we get.


----------



## Cornhusker

Woolieface said:


> Why is the label right wing "nutcases"? Don't liberals have any nuts? :gaptooth:


Yes they do
Most of those who run off the rails are left leaning Obama fans.
You won't hear a lot about those though...you know who runs the media circus


----------



## gibbsgirl

This article has the video I saw yesterday with a cop evacuating people from the shooting.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...es-terrified-workers-ll-protect-massacre.html


----------



## Raeven

MO_cows said:


> Yes, it is. Firsthand information is always best.
> 
> I would also be interested to know the years when you and Farmerkat went thru the process. Pre and post 9/11, perhaps made a difference?


 My experience was also pre and post-9/11. When my husband and I first applied, it was pre-9/11. He was coming in from Australia, a visa waiver country, but he was also a native of New Zealand (another visa waiver country). He had citizenship in both places. 

We opted to apply before he entered the USA because we had been told by others that the process was much more severe if we applied after we married here. Believe it or not, the INS frowns on this practice. Even though we applied prior to his entry and even though he came from a visa waiver country, it was nonetheless a very arduous process.

We applied for a K-1 fiancÃ© visa for Steve in early February 2001. Our initial application was approved in late March 2001. That simply meant that Steve was eligible to receive the K-1 packet from the American Consulate in Sydney (he lived near Melbourne). He received it in early April 2001. It was a very involved Petition. We were required to detail every family connection, every place he had ever lived, any information about a criminal record (there was none, but we were required to verify this information from every place he lived), his job history and a lot of other personal information. 

After we had gathered all the required information, Steve was able to request an interview with the American Consulate in Sydney. He was granted an interview in November 2001 â so this was very shortly after 9/11. He traveled to Sydney with all the paperwork heâd been required to gather and was interviewed at length about all aspects of his life. The interview process took a couple of hours. Of a dozen people who were there seeking entry into the US, *his was the only Petition that was approved that day*. Of course he was fingerprinted and was also required to provide additional photographs of himself.

He was then required to pass a physical. That ended up taking awhile because there were some heart irregularities. But eventually it got sorted and he was able to apply for an entry date into the United States. He was given permission to enter in early February of 2002, so this part of the process took a year.

Upon his entry into the country, we had 30 days to marry and 90 days total for him to apply for temporary resident status. We were married in mid-February 2002. We applied for temporary resident status in late February 2002 and Steve received his advanced parole documents permitting him to stay in the country until temporary legal resident status could be granted. He received his advanced parole authorization in mid-March 2002. 

Steve was not authorized to work in this country until he received his Employment Authorization Document. For this, we had to travel to Los Angeles for him to receive it in person in late March 2002. By the way, they tell you when to come. You have *no* say about this. They summon; you appear. Of course he was fingerprinted again.

He then had to show up in the Goleta, CA Field Office a week later for (can you guess?) fingerprinting.

In September 2002, we were granted an interview with INS to prove that our relationship was bona fide. Here is a list of what we were required to bring:

[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT]Payment(s) as required by USCIS. Be sure to include the payment for both the I-485 and the biometrics fee. 

[FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT]Cover Letter. Should include a description of what you are petitioning for (I-485), a table of contents (list everything in the packet). If you need additional room to explain your case, attach a separate sheet (list the attachment on the cover sheet). Make sure to sign and date the cover sheet.

[FONT=&quot]3. [/FONT]Form I-485: Petition for Alien Relative.

[FONT=&quot]4. [/FONT]Copy of the non US Citizen Spouse's Passport (biographical page as well as entry stamps).

[FONT=&quot]5. [/FONT]Copy of the non US Citizen Spouse's K-1 or K-3 Visa from Passport.

[FONT=&quot]6. [/FONT]Non US Citizen Spouse's Electronic I-94 Copy or (for older entries) a copy of a valid paper I-94 (front and back of form)

[FONT=&quot]7. [/FONT]K-1 Visa Holders: Submit Copy of NOA2 "Approval" for I-129F

[FONT=&quot]8. [/FONT]A certified copy of the intending immigrant's birth certificate along with English translation. (If in any language other than English)

[FONT=&quot]9. [/FONT]A certified copy of your marriage certificate.

[FONT=&quot]10. [/FONT]Two passport-type photos (see specification) of the Non US Citizen Spouse. Write the full name on the back. Place in a plastic bag and label the bag "Photo of <Insert Name>". Attach the bag to a sheet of paper and place behind the corresponding G-325a.

[FONT=&quot]11. [/FONT]G-325A (biographic information form) filled out, signed and dated.

[FONT=&quot]12. [/FONT]I-693, Medical Examination of Aliens Seeking Adjustment of Status. If you are a K-1, K-2, K-3 or K-4 visa holder the I-693 instructions state that you are not required to have another medical examination as long as your Form I-485 is filed within one year of your overseas medical examination. Regardless of if you are exempt from a medical exam, you are still required to complete certain portions of the I-693 and have a Civil Surgeon certify the form (and seal it in an envelope). Specifically, you will complete Part 1 (Information about you) of the I-693 and provide both the form and your DS-3025 (if you have it, proving your vaccination history) and any proof of required vaccinations that were completed prior to entering the US. If you do not have a copy of your DS-3025 you will need to provide sufficient evidence of your vaccination history to the Civil Surgeon (talk to the civil surgeon's office to discuss what vaccination records they accept as proof). If you do not have proof of your vaccination history the Civil Surgeon may insist on re-administering all the required vaccinations prior to completing the I-693. Once the Civil Surgeon has has verified that all required vaccinations have been performed, they will complete form I-693 Part 2 (the vaccination section) and Part 5 (the Civil Surgeon's Certification). They will then seal the form in an envelope and return it to you.

[FONT=&quot]13. [/FONT] I-864, Affidavit of Support (I had to prove I could support him for 2 years if necessary.)

[FONT=&quot]14. [/FONT]I-131, Application for Travel Document, if you need to travel outside the United States while your application is processed (optional)

In addition to all of the above, we were required to present numerous notarized affidavits from friends and family declaring the legitimacy of our relationship. We also had to present statements or bills showing joint ownership ofâ¦ well, anything. Cars, utility bills, credit cards jointly held, etc. Copies of our wedding invitation. Photographic evidence of us as a couple. Anything we had that demonstrated we were a real couple, not just faking for a green card. 

Our interview was not too bad. They asked us some âgotchaâ questions which we were able to answer readily, and we left with Steve being granted temporary legal resident alien status for 2 years, after which time we were able to apply for permanent resident alien status for him.

And this was the *easy* K-1 route.


----------



## Darren

I was told that once you sponsored an alien and brought them into the country, you are responsible for them even if you get divorced.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Raeven said:


> My experience was also pre and post-9/11. When my husband and I first applied, it was pre-9/11. He was coming in from Australia, a visa waiver country, but he was also a native of New Zealand (another visa waiver country). He had citizenship in both places.
> 
> We opted to apply before he entered the USA because we had been told by others that the process was much more severe if we applied after we married here. Believe it or not, the INS frowns on this practice. Even though we applied prior to his entry and even though he came from a visa waiver country, it was nonetheless a very arduous process.
> 
> We applied for a K-1 fiancÃ© visa for Steve in early February 2001. Our initial application was approved in late March 2001. That simply meant that Steve was eligible to receive the K-1 packet from the American Consulate in Sydney (he lived near Melbourne). He received it in early April 2001. It was a very involved Petition. We were required to detail every family connection, every place he had ever lived, any information about a criminal record (there was none, but we were required to verify this information from every place he lived), his job history and a lot of other personal information.
> 
> After we had gathered all the required information, Steve was able to request an interview with the American Consulate in Sydney. He was granted an interview in November 2001 &#8211; so this was very shortly after 9/11. He traveled to Sydney with all the paperwork he&#8217;d been required to gather and was interviewed at length about all aspects of his life. The interview process took a couple of hours. Of a dozen people who were there seeking entry into the US, *his was the only Petition that was approved that day*. Of course he was fingerprinted and was also required to provide additional photographs of himself.
> 
> He was then required to pass a physical. That ended up taking awhile because there were some heart irregularities. But eventually it got sorted and he was able to apply for an entry date into the United States. He was given permission to enter in early February of 2002, so this part of the process took a year.
> 
> Upon his entry into the country, we had 30 days to marry and 90 days total for him to apply for temporary resident status. We were married in mid-February 2002. We applied for temporary resident status in late February 2002 and Steve received his advanced parole documents permitting him to stay in the country until temporary legal resident status could be granted. He received his advanced parole authorization in mid-March 2002.
> 
> Steve was not authorized to work in this country until he received his Employment Authorization Document. For this, we had to travel to Los Angeles for him to receive it in person in late March 2002. By the way, they tell you when to come. You have *no* say about this. They summon; you appear. Of course he was fingerprinted again.
> 
> He then had to show up in the Goleta, CA Field Office a week later for (can you guess?) fingerprinting.
> 
> In September 2002, we were granted an interview with INS to prove that our relationship was bona fide. Here is a list of what we were required to bring:
> 
> [FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT]Payment(s) as required by USCIS. Be sure to include the payment for both the I-485 and the biometrics fee.
> 
> [FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT]Cover Letter. Should include a description of what you are petitioning for (I-485), a table of contents (list everything in the packet). If you need additional room to explain your case, attach a separate sheet (list the attachment on the cover sheet). Make sure to sign and date the cover sheet.
> 
> [FONT=&quot]3. [/FONT]Form I-485: Petition for Alien Relative.
> 
> [FONT=&quot]4. [/FONT]Copy of the non US Citizen Spouse's Passport (biographical page as well as entry stamps).
> 
> [FONT=&quot]5. [/FONT]Copy of the non US Citizen Spouse's K-1 or K-3 Visa from Passport.
> 
> [FONT=&quot]6. [/FONT]Non US Citizen Spouse's Electronic I-94 Copy or (for older entries) a copy of a valid paper I-94 (front and back of form)
> 
> [FONT=&quot]7. [/FONT]K-1 Visa Holders: Submit Copy of NOA2 "Approval" for I-129F
> 
> [FONT=&quot]8. [/FONT]A certified copy of the intending immigrant's birth certificate along with English translation. (If in any language other than English)
> 
> [FONT=&quot]9. [/FONT]A certified copy of your marriage certificate.
> 
> [FONT=&quot]10. [/FONT]Two passport-type photos (see specification) of the Non US Citizen Spouse. Write the full name on the back. Place in a plastic bag and label the bag "Photo of <Insert Name>". Attach the bag to a sheet of paper and place behind the corresponding G-325a.
> 
> [FONT=&quot]11. [/FONT]G-325A (biographic information form) filled out, signed and dated.
> 
> [FONT=&quot]12. [/FONT]I-693, Medical Examination of Aliens Seeking Adjustment of Status. If you are a K-1, K-2, K-3 or K-4 visa holder the I-693 instructions state that you are not required to have another medical examination as long as your Form I-485 is filed within one year of your overseas medical examination. Regardless of if you are exempt from a medical exam, you are still required to complete certain portions of the I-693 and have a Civil Surgeon certify the form (and seal it in an envelope). Specifically, you will complete Part 1 (Information about you) of the I-693 and provide both the form and your DS-3025 (if you have it, proving your vaccination history) and any proof of required vaccinations that were completed prior to entering the US. If you do not have a copy of your DS-3025 you will need to provide sufficient evidence of your vaccination history to the Civil Surgeon (talk to the civil surgeon's office to discuss what vaccination records they accept as proof). If you do not have proof of your vaccination history the Civil Surgeon may insist on re-administering all the required vaccinations prior to completing the I-693. Once the Civil Surgeon has has verified that all required vaccinations have been performed, they will complete form I-693 Part 2 (the vaccination section) and Part 5 (the Civil Surgeon's Certification). They will then seal the form in an envelope and return it to you.
> 
> [FONT=&quot]13. [/FONT] I-864, Affidavit of Support (I had to prove I could support him for 2 years if necessary.)
> 
> [FONT=&quot]14. [/FONT]I-131, Application for Travel Document, if you need to travel outside the United States while your application is processed (optional)
> 
> In addition to all of the above, we were required to present numerous notarized affidavits from friends and family declaring the legitimacy of our relationship. We also had to present statements or bills showing joint ownership of&#8230; well, anything. Cars, utility bills, credit cards jointly held, etc. Copies of our wedding invitation. Photographic evidence of us as a couple. Anything we had that demonstrated we were a real couple, not just faking for a green card.
> 
> Our interview was not too bad. They asked us some &#8220;gotcha&#8221; questions which we were able to answer readily, and we left with Steve being granted temporary legal resident alien status for 2 years, after which time we were able to apply for permanent resident alien status for him.
> 
> And this was the *easy* K-1 route.


I'm glad you two were able to get it all squared away. Tons of people do not follow that process for a variety of reasons, they enter through other legal status, they enter illegally, and so on. There's still lots of improvements to be made IMO, regardless if where a person comes from.

Here's another idea, some people would probably consider extreme. Foreigners who are convicted of crimes in the US should be delivered to the embassy representing their nation of origin. And, the embassy should be required to extradite the conviction home. (There are plenty we know the nation of origin of ). After it is found that said country US failing to restrict those criminals reentry to the USA, I say we remove our embassy and expel them from their embassy here.

Priorities if others change when the realize you're aware, "you treat people how to treat you."

Those are my thoughts.


----------



## Raeven

Darren said:


> I was told that once you sponsored an alien and brought them into the country, you are responsible for them even if you get divorced.


For 2 years, you are. That would be an extreme situation if it occurred, but yes. Gotta be careful about your alien.


----------



## Laura Zone 5

Bearfootfarm said:


> Even with my crappy dial up, the information was only 10 seconds and one click away.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bing.com/search?q=robert...=-1&sk=&cvid=09AAD8F6EB9442A0A30B4E7ACF8D5CD4
> 
> He was also rabidly anti-Obama


Um, hate to break it to you, but that does not make him a christian.
It makes him an idiot, USING religion as his EXCUSE to be an idiot.
Kinda like Pixies example of the idiot telling men how to abuse their wives to get their way and USING religion as his EXCUSE.

Based upon this Dear would have become a Happy Meal as soon as he walked into a McDonalds, or turn into a car simply because he walked into a garage.......


----------



## Laura Zone 5

Farmerga said:


> It is quite possible that the FBI agent knows more than he is saying. It is also quite possible that the unnamed sources pulled the info out of their rear ends. It is a mystery. That is why I said "take it for what it is worth".


That's ok, on the PP thread it was PERFECTLY acceptable that an "anonymous" source said Dear said "baby parts".

Bwaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha.........double standard party of 4 your table is now available.


----------



## Raeven

gibbsgirl said:


> I'm glad you two were able to get it all squared away. Tons of people do not follow that process for a variety of reasons, they enter through other legal status, they enter illegally, and so on. There's still lots of improvements to be made IMO, regardless if where a person comes from.
> 
> Here's another idea, some people would probably consider extreme. Foreigners who are convicted of crimes in the US should be delivered to the embassy representing their nation of origin. And, the embassy should be required to extradite the conviction home. (There are plenty we know the nation of origin of ). After it is found that said country US failing to restrict those criminals reentry to the USA, I say we remove our embassy and expel them from their embassy here.
> 
> Priorities if others change when the realize you're aware, "you treat people how to treat you."
> 
> Those are my thoughts.


Yes, I am glad we were able to clear all the hurdles. I will add that having gone through the process personally -- even as a fairly literate person who speaks decent English -- I can well understand why many immigrants who wish to gain entry lawfully give up in despair on this process. It is complicated and it is expensive.

I would also point out that many of the solutions you propose have enormous costs associated with them. It costs a lot of money to vet everyone to pieces, and it takes a lot of personnel. If you're an advocate of smaller government, how does this come about, exactly?

As a society, we live with a lot of daily practices that expose us to far more risk than that of domestic terrorism or refugees seeking asylum. We don't care about those other risks in the least. The fears associated with xenophobia are so outsized when compared to the actual risk. I don't understand this at all.

Osama bin Laden once said that his intended method of vanquishing us was to bankrupt us by causing us to spend more and more and more on our "war" on terror. By that measure, I'm afraid he is winning. Handily.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Darren said:


> I was told that once you sponsored an alien and brought them into the country, you are responsible for them even if you get divorced.


I was told the second amendment was to protect us from those who governed us, not for hunting. Go figure.


----------



## Laura Zone 5

Have not had access to the news for 2 days........

I have heard they were wearing Go Pro cameras?
has this been verified.

ALSO is there ANY hard evidence (manifestos, social media, old fashioned note, FBI intel, etc) that this was a Radical Muslim Jihading for ISIS or Alkitea?
Was there any eye witness reports that said the shooters screamed religious things indicating that religion was the root of this shooting?

I do not want to assume, without hard facts, just becasue he is brown, that he is a radical muslim, recrutied by ISIS and carrying out a planned attack for his religion.

If that IS the case, fine, but it really urinates me off that this idiot Colorado shooter is being touted as an 'extreme christian' cause I'm here to tell you, a Believer and Follower of Christ, would never act the way this fool acted.

From what I understand, muslims have the same problem: A handfull of butthats that 'claim' the religion, when they wouldn't know the religon's real meaning if it poked their eye out


----------



## oneraddad

Raeven said:


> It is complicated and it is expensive.



We didn't experience either of those things.

On one of her holidays here from England we married and she never went back except to visit. We did all the paper work ourselves and if we could do it, it couldn't be that complicated. But, this was 25 years ago and I'm sure things are different today.

Being ex-military I saw how long and complicated it was to ask permission to get married first, so we avoided that.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Raeven said:


> Yes, I am glad we were able to clear all the hurdles. I will add that having gone through the process personally -- even as a fairly literate person who speaks decent English -- I can well understand why many immigrants who wish to gain entry lawfully give up in despair on this process. It is complicated and it is expensive.
> 
> I would also point out that many of the solutions you propose have enormous costs associated with them. It costs a lot of money to vet everyone to pieces, and it takes a lot of personnel. If you're an advocate of smaller government, how does this come about, exactly?
> 
> As a society, we live with a lot of daily practices that expose us to far more risk than that of domestic terrorism or refugees seeking asylum. We don't care about those other risks in the least. The fears associated with xenophobia are so outsized when compared to the actual risk. I don't understand this at all.
> 
> Osama bin Laden once said that his intended method of vanquishing us was to bankrupt us by causing us to spend more and more and more on our "war" on terror. By that measure, I'm afraid he is winning. Handily.


I don't agree my suggestions are fiscally unsound of that we lack the resources to do so. And, we need a big change if we want big results.

Afterall, our govt has not done a remarkable job fiscally or security wise in quite some time. And, doing virtually the opposite of the proposed ideas I support, is basically spending us into oblivion.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Farmerga said:


> It is quite possible that the FBI agent knows more than he is saying. It is also quite possible that the unnamed sources pulled the info out of their rear ends. * It is a mystery*. That is why I said "take it for what it is worth".


That's why I'm willing to wait for it to be confirmed by more than one source before I decide whether or not to believe it.


----------



## Woolieface

Cornhusker said:


> Yes they do
> Most of those who run off the rails are left leaning Obama fans.
> You won't hear a lot about those though...you know who runs the media circus


Yep, though it could also have been a bit of a trick question...lol No right (or left as the case may be) way for a liberal to answer it. Sorry...just amusing myself a little.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Woolieface said:


> To me, that's just batfeces crazy. It makes no sense, even if someone was upset enough about pork to kill....this seems above and beyond just a little off one's rocker and *to have body armor, military weapons, an armored vehicle all ready and waiting*. I just don't believe we're going to privy to the true story here.


They didn't have any of those things
Why do you insist on spreading these fantasies as if they are real?


----------



## gibbsgirl

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Have not had access to the news for 2 days........
> 
> I have heard they were wearing Go Pro cameras?
> has this been verified.
> 
> ALSO is there ANY hard evidence (manifestos, social media, old fashioned note, FBI intel, etc) that this was a Radical Muslim Jihading for ISIS or Alkitea?
> Was there any eye witness reports that said the shooters screamed religious things indicating that religion was the root of this shooting?
> 
> I do not want to assume, without hard facts, just becasue he is brown, that he is a radical muslim, recrutied by ISIS and carrying out a planned attack for his religion.
> 
> If that IS the case, fine, but it really urinates me off that this idiot Colorado shooter is being touted as an 'extreme christian' cause I'm here to tell you, a Believer and Follower of Christ, would never act the way this fool acted.
> 
> From what I understand, muslims have the same problem: A handfull of butthats that 'claim' the religion, when they wouldn't know the religon's real meaning if it poked their eye out


I've been reading articles as I can today.

The thing I really want to know, and haven't found yet, is how the people in the hospitals are doing.  I haven't seen any headlines that any died. But, I haven't seen anything saying that people are stabilized and expected to do well. That's discouraging. Would be nice to know if they are still in critical condition now. Said prayers for them a few times.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Um, hate to break it to you, but that does not make him a christian.
> It makes him an idiot, USING religion as his EXCUSE to be an idiot.
> Kinda like Pixies example of the idiot telling men how to abuse their wives to get their way and USING religion as his EXCUSE.
> 
> Based upon this Dear would have become a Happy Meal as soon as he walked into a McDonalds, or turn into a car simply because he walked into a garage.......


He called himself a "Christian"

I see lots who call themselves that but don't really act the part.

Do I get to decide who is and who isn't, based on what *I* think?

Is it only real if you *act* like what you claim to be?

But those questions don't really belong on this thread anyway


----------



## poppy

Bearfootfarm said:


> You need to report that to the FBI agent who was just on TV who said they had found no evidence of that so far.
> 
> He will be glad to have your sources (as would we)


Maybe they should talk to CNN. Someone is not telling the truth. I don't trust CNN but I distrust this administration even more. Both Obama and Painterswife have a vested interest in downplaying the terror aspect of this story.:grin:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/03/us/san-bernardino-shooting/index.html


----------



## gibbsgirl

As far as xenophobia....well....

I don't think people fear quite as much that is different or foreign to them as some others think, so maybe that is where there is some confusion.

I'm not afraid of all Muslims. But, from a rational standpoint, I can come to the conclusion that the foreign Muslim communities have a lot of problems with terrorism. And, I have very little interest in importing their problems into our country.

We have enough to get in order with our own people IMO.

Xenophobia is as impractical a word to me as homophobia. Why do people use that word to describe people who are opposed to supporting homosexual lifestyles? Do they actually think they are afraid of gay people?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

poppy said:


> Maybe they should talk to CNN. Someone is not telling the truth. I don't trust CNN but I distrust this administration even more. Both Obama and Painterswife have a vested interest in downplaying the terror aspect of this story.:grin:
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/03/us/san-bernardino-shooting/index.html


So you don't want to believe the police, but you will believe a site that says their source is the police.

Yeah, that's logical. 

Why not just be patient and wait for more details?


----------



## HDRider

Bearfootfarm said:


> We don't have Sharia law here.
> We had the shooting.
> Your answer is obviously incorrect


The shooters are advocates of Sharia law. The battle is between western culture and Sharia law. 

Btw. You do not have right or ability to say I am wrong. You are not the decider. You just play one on the interweb.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Bearfootfarm said:


> So you don't want to believe the police, but you will believe a site that says their source is the police.
> 
> Yeah, that's logical.
> 
> Why not just be patient and wait for more details?


I'm not terribly convinced we get closer to the truth as time passes with news stories these days.


----------



## Laura Zone 5

Bearfootfarm said:


> He called himself a "Christian"
> 
> I see lots who call themselves that but don't really act the part.
> 
> Do I get to decide who is and who isn't, based on what *I* think?
> 
> Is it only real if you *act* like what you claim to be?
> 
> But those questions don't really belong on this thread anyway



I missed where HE was quoted as saying "I AM a christian"???
Do you have a link?

Well, you can decide in your own mind what is or is not what someone says. God Bless America.
BUT if you want TRUTH you will have to seek it.
Knowledge is Power.
Ignorance, is bliss......


----------



## Patchouli

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I missed where HE was quoted as saying "I AM a christian"???
> Do you have a link?
> 
> Well, you can decide in your own mind what is or is not what someone says. God Bless America.
> BUT if you want TRUTH you will have to seek it.
> Knowledge is Power.
> Ignorance, is bliss......


What specifically are you looking for? We have posted multiple links that said he was a Christian. Here is this one again:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/02/us/robert-dear-planned-parenthood-shooting.html?_r=0



> The man she had married professed to be deeply religious. But after more than seven years with Robert L. Dear Jr., Barbara Micheau had come to see life with him as a kind of hell on earth.By January 1993, she had had enough. In a sworn affidavit as part of her divorce case, Ms. Micheau described Mr. Dear as a serial philanderer and a problem gambler, a man who kicked her, beat her head against the floor and fathered two children with other women while they were together. He found excuses for his transgressions, she said, in his idiosyncratic views on Christian eschatology and the nature of salvation.
> âHe claims to be a Christian and is extremely evangelistic, but does not follow the Bible in his actions,â Ms. Micheau said in the court document. âHe says that as long as he believes he will be saved, he can do whatever he pleases. He is obsessed with the world coming to an end.â





> âTurn to JESUS or burn in hell,â he wrote on one site on Oct. 7, 2005. âWAKE UP SINNERS U CANT SAVE YOURSELF U WILL DIE AN WORMS SHALL EAT YOUR FLESH, NOW YOUR SOUL IS GOING SOMEWHERE.â
> 
> One person who spoke with him extensively about his religious views said Mr. Dear, who is 57, had praised people who attacked abortion providers, saying they were doing âGodâs work.â In 2009, said the person, who spoke on the condition of anonymity out of concerns for the privacy of the family, Mr. Dear described as âheroesâ members of the Army of God, a loosely organized group of anti-abortion extremists that has claimed responsibility for a number of killings and bombings.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Patchouli said:


> What specifically are you looking for? We have posted multiple links that said he was a Christian. Here is this one again:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/02/us/robert-dear-planned-parenthood-shooting.html?_r=0


To be honest, I don't doubt that some of these non-muslim criminals do consider themselves Christian.

I guess the difference I see is who endorses their behavior. In either case, I do read about faith leader and branches of Christianity and Islam, denouncing the acts of criminals claiming an association.

But, with Muslims, I do see far more often that there are also an undeniably significant amount of faith leaders who celebrate their actions.


----------



## Laura Zone 5

Ok, I was looking for where John Dear or whatever his name is, said "I AM A CHRISTIAN, JESUS CHRIST IS LORD"

Then, to prove his proclamation, I would like to see his life of 'changed persons' behavior where he used to act like a godless man, and once his profession of Faith, a completely NEW man began a NEW life / lifestyle that was God Filled.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Ok, I was looking for where John Dear or whatever his name is, said "I AM A CHRISTIAN, JESUS CHRIST IS LORD"
> 
> Then, to prove his proclamation, I would like to see his life of 'changed persons' behavior where he used to act like a godless man, and once his profession of Faith, a completely NEW man began a NEW life / lifestyle that was God Filled.


In other words, you won't believe it until he's written it in his own blood?


----------



## Irish Pixie

Patchouli said:


> What specifically are you looking for? We have posted multiple links that said he was a Christian. Here is this one again:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/02/us/robert-dear-planned-parenthood-shooting.html?_r=0


Nothing will ever be enough for some, they'll simply say, "he wasn't a _real_ christian" or whatever. 

Believe it or not, christians do heinous things in the name of their god.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

HDRider said:


> The shooters are advocates of Sharia law. The battle is between western culture and Sharia law.
> 
> Btw. You do not have right or ability to say I am wrong. You are not the decider. You just play one on the interweb.


The evidence shows you are wrong, since you claim to know "the enemy" but the shooting still took place.

"Sharia Law" didn't pull any triggers.


----------



## Shine

Irish Pixie said:


> Nothing will ever be enough for some, they'll simply say, "he wasn't a _real_ christian" or whatever.
> 
> Believe it or not, christians do heinous things in the name of their god.


So do others that are not aligned with any religion. What is your point and why are you so fixated on a sliver percentage of those that kill others?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

gibbsgirl said:


> I'm not terribly convinced we get closer to the truth as time passes with news stories these days.


I'm sure many will discount things based on their conspiracy theories.
Those same people will often parrot misinformation that has been disproven so as to further the illusion of some "cover-up"


----------



## Irish Pixie

Shine said:


> So do others that are not aligned with any religion. What is your point and why are you so fixated on a sliver percentage of those that kill others?


Dang. I'm saying that christians do heinous things in the name of their god.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I missed where HE was quoted as saying "I AM a christian"???
> Do you have a link?
> 
> Well, you can decide in your own mind what is or is not what someone says. God Bless America.
> BUT if you want TRUTH you will have to seek it.
> *Knowledge is Power.
> Ignorance, is bliss*......


On that we agree.

This thread isn't supposed to be about Dear


----------



## Patchouli

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Ok, I was looking for where John Dear or whatever his name is, said "I AM A CHRISTIAN, JESUS CHRIST IS LORD"
> 
> Then, to prove his proclamation, I would like to see his life of 'changed persons' behavior where he used to act like a godless man, and once his profession of Faith, a completely NEW man began a NEW life / lifestyle that was God Filled.


You know it's ironic I gave a personal confession of faith from Obama recently that met all the requirements of Christianity and no one would accept it because they don't want him to be a Christian. Mr. Dear proclaimed himself a Christian to friends and family. He proclaimed a harsh version of the Gospel on the internet. I have no doubt he was 100% a Christian believer to his own mind. 

I agree with your previous posts that claiming a religious belief does not make one a true adherent of a faith. People can twist their religion to suit themselves and we have to go with what the majority says. One of the things I find really frustrating here is that people can not seperate the religion of Islam from the culture of the people practicing it. 

They like to say things like "all Muslims" are this that or the other when really they are talking about a few sects of Islam in the ME or Africa that are out of control mainly due to their indigenous culture and not the religion itself. I am not even sure they are aware of the Asian countries that are Muslim that are perfectly peaceful and treat their women well and don't do anything of the things they trot out as inherently Muslim.


----------



## Patchouli

Shine said:


> So do others that are not aligned with any religion. What is your point and why are you so fixated on a sliver percentage of those that kill others?


Because the majority here are focused on a different sliver? 

It's an if then argument. If all Muslims who commit atrocities in the name of Allah are true adherents of Islam then all Christians who commit atrocities in the name of God are true adherents of Christianity. If you balk at one of those then hopefully it will make you rethink your position on the other one too.


----------



## arabian knight

He is a Christian my Aunt Fanny


----------



## po boy

Bearfootfarm said:


> On that we agree.
> 
> This thread isn't supposed to be about Dear


Strange, 

Title is 
*Sounds bad, 3 shooters *


----------



## oneraddad

I notice some Christians here don't act very Christ like and judge way too much. 

Concentrate on being the best you, you can be and let your God sort it out in the end. 

Life will be easier and much more fun.


----------



## Woolieface

Patchouli said:


> Because the majority here are focused on a different sliver?
> 
> It's an if then argument. If all Muslims who commit atrocities in the name of Allah are true adherents of Islam then all Christians who commit atrocities in the name of God are true adherents of Christianity. If you balk at one of those then hopefully it will make you rethink your position on the other one too.


Well no, that chicken don't really fly, because...

Murdering people is in direct violation of the basic tenets of Christianity. This includes Muslims and any other non-Christian person.

Killing Christians, Jews and other non believers is in direct Obedience to the Quran.


----------



## mustangglp

Patchouli said:


> Because the majority here are focused on a different sliver?
> 
> It's an if then argument. If all Muslims who commit atrocities in the name of Allah are true adherents of Islam then all Christians who commit atrocities in the name of God are true adherents of Christianity. If you balk at one of those then hopefully it will make you rethink your position on the other one too.


I think you need to look at percentage I have friend from Iraq he is very against bring more Muslim in to this country he said that many of his Christian friends were killed by Muslims ! For what its worth he is Muslim and work as translator for the US army.
You could not walk down very many street's in the middle east wearing you're normal clothIng.


----------



## Laura Zone 5

Irish Pixie said:


> In other words, you won't believe it until he's written it in his own blood?


No, but I would like the same benefit of doubt that brown folks, w/ middle eastern decent / family decent get when they go buck stupid and shoot a bunch of folks up. 
I'd like to know where they went to 'church'. What religious place they affiliate with.
When they scream "abra ka dabra' or whatever it is they say right before they blow themselves up, or shoot a place up, then yeah, I'd say their perception of the muslim religion was a huge part in their crime.

Similarly, I would like to see where Dear went to church, where he practiced his 'religion' where he professes that Christ is Lord......



Irish Pixie said:


> Nothing will ever be enough for some, they'll simply say, "he wasn't a _real_ christian" or whatever.
> 
> Believe it or not, christians do heinous things in the name of their god.


I know you hate chrisitans, we ALL get that.

But REAL muslims do not strap on hotdog suits and blow others up.
REAL muslims, practice their religion, and mind their own business.
REAL Believers, are no different.

What Dear did was murder. Period.
WHEN he goes before God on Judgment Day, Dear will answer to the Almighty God........and trust me when I say, nothing man can do to him on earth (as far as punishment goes) can compare, if Dear is not right w/ Jesus.

YES, people who say "I am a chrisitan" can and DO horrible things. 
I have first hand experience.
But it is NOT the 'human' I serve.
I serve the Lord, and it's HIS business to sort them out.


----------



## Cornhusker

Irish Pixie said:


> Dang. I'm saying that christians do heinous things in the name of their god.


Like what?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

po boy said:


> Strange,
> 
> Title is
> *Sounds bad, 3 shooters *


Different events in different states with no connections

There are (or were) threads specifically about Dear


----------



## Irish Pixie

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I know you hate chrisitans, we ALL get that.
> 
> But REAL muslims do not strap on hotdog suits and blow others up.
> REAL muslims, practice their religion, and mind their own business.
> REAL Believers, are no different.
> 
> What Dear did was murder. Period.
> WHEN he goes before God on Judgment Day, Dear will answer to the Almighty God........and trust me when I say, nothing man can do to him on earth (as far as punishment goes) can compare, if Dear is not right w/ Jesus.
> 
> YES, people who say "I am a chrisitan" can and DO horrible things.
> I have first hand experience.
> But it is NOT the 'human' I serve.
> I serve the Lord, and it's HIS business to sort them out.


How many times do I have to say I don't hate christians? In fact, there are some I love dearly. But _you'd_ know better what _I_ love and hate, right? 

My point has always been that christians aren't always good. Muslims aren't always bad. Both religions have killed in the name of their god. The are both abrahamic religions, and are basically the same.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Laura Zone 5 said:


> No, but I would like the same benefit of doubt that brown folks, w/ middle eastern decent / family decent get when they go buck stupid and shoot a bunch of folks up.
> I'd like to know where they went to 'church'. What religious place they affiliate with.
> *When they scream "abra ka dabra'* or whatever it is they say right before they blow themselves up, or shoot a place up, then yeah, I'd say their perception of the muslim religion was a huge part in their crime.
> 
> *Similarly, I would like to see where Dear went to church, where he practiced his 'religion' where he professes that Christ is Lord......*


You just lost every shred of credibility.


----------



## Cornhusker

Irish Pixie said:


> How many times do I have to say I don't hate christians? In fact, there are some I love dearly. But _you'd_ know better what _I_ love and hate, right?
> 
> My point has always been that christians aren't always good. Muslims aren't always bad. Both religions have killed in the name of their god. The are both abrahamic religions, and are basically the same.


Except one is on a global terror campaign and the other teaches love thy neighbor...basically the same


----------



## FarmerKat

This is just a question ... we do not have cable TV so I am just browsing news online. What happened to the possible 3rd & 4th shooters? Have they determined that it was only the couple?


----------



## poppy

FarmerKat said:


> This is just a question ... we do not have cable TV so I am just browsing news online. What happened to the possible 3rd & 4th shooters? Have they determined that it was only the couple?


They MAY have been the only shooters but others knew what was going on. I expect more arrests. I found interesting the link on Drudge about their neighbor lady who was concerned about seeing them receive a lot of packages, the killers and others working in their garage late at night, and other ME looking men coming and going from the house but she was afraid to report her suspicions for fear of being labeled racist. That's what political correctness has gotten us. The government used to say, "See something, say something". Political correctness makes people afraid to do that.


----------



## Cornhusker

poppy said:


> They MAY have been the only shooters but others knew what was going on. I expect more arrests. I found interesting the link on Drudge about their neighbor lady who was concerned about seeing them receive a lot of packages, the killers and others working in their garage late at night, and other ME looking men coming and going from the house but she was afraid to report her suspicions for fear of being labeled racist. That's what political correctness has gotten us. The government used to say, "See something, say something". *Political correctness makes people afraid to do that.*


That's the purpose of all this political correctness.
All they really want reported is anyone talking against the Obama "administration"


----------



## oneraddad

Cornhusker said:


> That's the purpose of all this political correctness.
> All they really want reported is anyone talking against the Obama "administration"



Get a new trick


----------



## Darren

Looks like Obama can't catch a break if this is true.

"Shooting suspect Tashfeen Malik passed DHS counterterrorism screening as part of her vetting for K-1 visa."

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/672549313298481152


----------



## poppy

Darren said:


> Looks like Obama can't catch a break if this is true.
> 
> "Shooting suspect Tashfeen Malik passed DHS counterterrorism screening as part of her vetting for K-1 visa."
> 
> https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/672549313298481152


You don't reckon she lied, do ya? They're not supposed to do that. Oh well, she's probably the only one.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

FarmerKat said:


> This is just a question ... we do not have cable TV so I am just browsing news online. What happened to the possible 3rd & 4th shooters? *Have they determined that it was only the couple*?


It's my understanding they had a 3rd suspect, but it was determined he had nothing to do with it, and the man and wife were the only two.

That contradicts *initial* reports both from police and eyewitnesses


----------



## TraderBob

Ya think the screening might be worthless then, if they can't catch someone lying? Why bother...open the borders, open the gates, let's just become another 3rd world cesspit.
Burn baby burn.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Darren said:


> Looks like Obama can't catch a break if this is true.
> 
> "Shooting suspect Tashfeen Malik passed DHS counterterrorism screening as part of her vetting for K-1 visa."
> 
> https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/672549313298481152


Eventually, if even mildly interested, more Americans are (hopefully) going to figure out the word "vetting" does NOT mean what they think it means.


----------



## Darren

It must be close to impossible to check the background of some people in the Middle East and other areas with dysfunctional governments. Can you imagine vetting Osama bin Laden based on his well known family and then having him go rogue? 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't read about Christians frequently attacking and stabbing Muslims. Nor have I heard of Jews or Christians blowing themselves and others up with a suicide vest.


----------



## poppy

I didn't hear the latest press conference but someone elsewhere posted that they said the SUV they used was a rental with Utah plates and was due to be returned today. Can't imagine the rental agency will be happy. I wouldn't call that normal wear and tear.


----------



## Darren

According to reports we had a record number of firearms purchased on Black Friday. We all know who to thank for that. 

I still think it would be a great idea to send cases of clown noses to the White House. All in favor say aye. If you hesitate, think about that too.


----------



## greg273

You can 'vet' or 'screen' somebody all ya want, if they want to cause mayhem, they will. Every criminal had a clean record, at one point.


----------



## Cornhusker

oneraddad said:


> Get a new trick


Oh BAZINGA!! Ya got me


----------



## Darren

greg273 said:


> You can 'vet' or 'screen' somebody all ya want, if they want to cause mayhem, they will. Every criminal had a clean record, at one point.


The problem we have, Greg, is that other countries more than likely do not have NSA type databases nor the type of data warehousing we have in this country. We tend to use a state driver's license for ID. Try getting one of those as ID from a Saudi woman. Finger prints on file? I doubt it. DNA? Nope.

I suspect some may not have a birth certificate. Should we ask them for the family Quran to look at the genealogy instead?

A big problem is thinking other countries work like ours. I bet you know that. But do you know to what extent it can be vastly different?


----------



## Darren

poppy said:


> I didn't hear the latest press conference but someone elsewhere posted that they said the SUV they used was a rental with Utah plates and was due to be returned today. Can't imagine the rental agency will be happy. I wouldn't call that normal wear and tear.


Something tells me they didn't take the optional insurance.


----------



## gibbsgirl

What's up with them renting a car though? I know not all jihadists are suicide people, because they have people who help plan, etc.

But, why rent a car. They surely had there own vehicle. If you're going to kill yourself, who cares what car you take.

They died in a shootout, and I heard they had bomb, planted bombs, but they didn't have suicide vests. At least what I heard.

I think they were planning to get away with it, and continue on with other jihad actions.

What they did get done was bad enough. I hope if they were working with other people those people get caught quickly.

Some of the Paris people survived, and the Boston bombers had to be tracked down.

Seems like like the new brand on jihadism in western countries is turning into trying to survive to do more than one attack.

Scary stuff.

Heard there were 21 people in the hospital today, not 17. But, my dad can't remember where he read that. Anyone hear anything about how those people in the hospitals are?


----------



## wr

gibbsgirl said:


> What's up with them renting a car though? I know not all jihadists are suicide people, because they have people who help plan, etc.
> 
> But, why rent a car. They surely had there own vehicle. If you're going to kill yourself, who cares what car you take.
> 
> They died in a shootout, and I heard they had bomb, planted bombs, but they didn't have suicide vests. At least what I heard.
> 
> I think they were planning to get away with it, and continue on with other jihad actions.
> 
> What they did get done was bad enough. I hope if they were working with other people those people get caught quickly.
> 
> Some of the Paris people survived, and the Boston bombers had to be tracked down.
> 
> Seems like like the new brand on jihadism in western countries is turning into trying to survive to do more than one attack.
> 
> Scary stuff.
> 
> Heard there were 21 people in the hospital today, not 17. But, my dad can't remember where he read that. Anyone hear anything about how those people in the hospitals are?


I have a few friends who live in cities and strictly rely on public transportation so I could see someone not owning a car but it usually takes a while to go to the trouble of renting one so unless they were planning a roadtrip, I would think that this was premeditated to some degree.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Socal is very different from places like NYC. Most of the population there has vehicles, even if they share as a household. And, public transit is spotty in its coverage and insufficient to accommodate most of the population.

Maybe they wanted to make sure the grandma got the car? Or maybe they thought they would do more jihad far into the future and so didn't want their personal vehicles linked to this attack.

I dunno.


----------



## gibbsgirl

If it was rented in Utah that seems weird too. Not like there's not a bazillion rental places everywhere there.


----------



## wr

gibbsgirl said:


> If it was rented in Utah that seems weird too. Not like there's not a bazillion rental places everywhere there.


There are a lot of questions that need answers. 

Your continual wondering about the victims in hospital led me to do some research, with no results but for some reason, I got wondering how the victims of Columbine had fared and that was an interesting read.


----------



## gibbsgirl

I found it was really upsetting to hear about the victims in Paris. They sent messages while trapped in the bataclan that the shooter's were walking the building and taking time to find survivors and shoot them. This was supposedly a real problem for those people while they waited for the police to storm the theater. Those shots would have been more targeted execution shots IMO.

I guess I've been really hoping that this shooting was different with some quick random bursts into the room/s, so maybe that could mean the gunshot victims might have fared better. Maybe not, but I found that a little comforting to hope for.

I haven't had luck either finding updates about how they are. We don't have regular TV, so I only got to see the live feeds when it happened. Been praying for good news for those people though.

Was really hoping the hospitals would have some positive news about those folks though since they've had at least enough time to assess things and start planning what care they need.

I understand not wanting personal info all over the media too though, so just praying they are well and that the hospital was asked not to give info on them.


----------



## MO_cows

gibbsgirl said:


> If it was rented in Utah that seems weird too. Not like there's not a bazillion rental places everywhere there.


It's not unusual to get out of state plates on a rental car. We rent them for work and maybe half the time it has the "right" state plates on it. They need more X cars here, they bring them in from another depot that has a surplus. No good reason to go to the expense to change the plates every time the cars change states. So I don't think that means anything in and of itself.


----------



## gibbsgirl

MO_cows said:


> It's not unusual to get out of state plates on a rental car. We rent them for work and maybe half the time it has the "right" state plates on it. They need more X cars here, they bring them in from another depot that has a surplus. No good reason to go to the expense to change the plates every time the cars change states. So I don't think that means anything in and of itself.


That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. Thanks. I thought they were supposed to have rented it from Utah.


----------



## poppy

wr said:


> I have a few friends who live in cities and strictly rely on public transportation so I could see someone not owning a car but it usually takes a while to go to the trouble of renting one so unless they were planning a roadtrip, I would think that this was premeditated to some degree.


They clearly were premeditating an attack of some sort and terrorists always look for soft targets because it gives them time to kill more people rather than spending time in shootouts with police. This guy, IMO, went to that event that day solely to assess the security situation. I'm not saying he might not have had issues with someone there, but he was targeting that meeting because it was a soft target.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Just heard skynews channel on YouTube report the 14 people who died were 6 ladies and 8 men. Didn't hear any other details about them or the injured people.


----------



## WildernesFamily

Fox news has all their names and a brief bio on a few of the victims.


----------



## gibbsgirl

WildernesFamily said:


> Fox news has all their names and a brief bio on a few of the victims.


Is it the people that died or injured or both? Thanks for the update.


----------



## WildernesFamily

gibbsgirl said:


> Is it the people that died or injured or both? Thanks for the update.


Only those who died last time I checked.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Good article about more details related to the shooter's.

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/3/syed-farook-tashfeen-malik-erased-digital-footprin/


----------



## farmrbrown

I figured out the basic motive for this shooting the day after it happened, the details have been coming out from the people who were there that confirm this, but of course the gov't and the media are doing their best to keep the info from the general public.
Why?
Because if people learned that this was a planned attack and the trigger was serving pork at a Christmas party - strike that - Holiday party, and that the shooter said he was tired of Islam being disrespected, how do you think the public would react?


----------



## Laura Zone 5

farmrbrown said:


> I figured out the basic motive for this shooting the day after it happened, the details have been coming out from the people who were there that confirm this, but of course the gov't and the media are doing their best to keep the info from the general public.
> *Why?*
> Because if people learned that this was a planned attack and the trigger was serving pork at a Christmas party - strike that - Holiday party, and that the shooter said he was tired of Islam being disrespected, how do you think the public would react?


THEN he would be no different than the PP Shooter Dear........

Dear was 'offended' by 'baby parts' and felt, in his warped perception of christianity, that HE needed to bring wrath and justice to the 'baby killers'.

Farook was 'offended' by pork at a Christmas/Holiday party? Tired of his warped perceptions of islam being disrespected?

OK I'd buy this EXCEPT for the fact Farook came in w/ body armor, pipe bombs, etc.......that he had in his home, ready for ??????
He didn't just grab a weapon, and go code red......

But at the end of the day, they could be the EXACT same crimes in the EXACT same place for the EXACT same reasons.......and Farook would be labeled "work place violence" and Dear would be labeled "terrorist".
Duh


----------



## Darren

farmrbrown said:


> Because if people learned that this was a planned attack and the trigger was serving pork at a Christmas party - strike that - Holiday party, and that the shooter said he was tired of Islam being disrespected,* how do you think the public would react?*


Get CCW permits and serve more pork?


----------



## Darren

Remember these? Is it legal to shoot over bait?


----------



## farmrbrown

Darren said:


> Remember these? Is it legal to shoot over bait?



I still those around town on the back of pick up trucks.
I think the season is year round.
Everyone should have a hobby.


----------



## Tricky Grama

mmoetc said:


> Of course you don't have a link. Could be the man's relatives and friends were visiting. Someone with a suspicious mind would see a lot of white men with guns who looked a lot like the abortion clinic shooter hanging around my house and coming and going at odd hours lately. Perfect cover for planning the next attack, no?


I don't under stand your post.
What man? & who's relatives were where?
I'll find the info I was speaking of...had nothing to do w/white men hanging around abortion clinics...had to do w/monitoring mosques.

BTW, last I heard France shut down 3 mosques.


----------



## Tricky Grama

painterswife said:


> There are sides? Two people killed a bunch of people. I would hope we are all on the same side. It is wrong and should not have happened.


And how do we prevent it? How do you prevent jihad?


----------



## Tricky Grama

FarmerKat said:


> This just occurred to me ... The news said he travelled to Saudi Arabia this year and they returned as husband and wife. The baby is 6 months old. He clearly must have travelled to meet her earlier as well as they could not possibly have a 6 months old if all happened this year. The rest is a speculation on my part .... I think that she was waiting for immigration clearance to travel to the US. It is pretty common when a US citizen marries someone abroad. If that is the case, she would have been vetted by immigration .... If that is the case, whoever did her background check clearly missed something.


You mean our gov't vetting did not prevent this immigrant from being a jihadist??? Say it isn't so!
Even from a 'friendly' gov't w/info & all...not like trying to get info from ...say...Syria.


----------



## 7thswan

TraderBob said:


> Ya think the screening might be worthless then, if they can't catch someone lying? Why bother...open the borders, open the gates, let's just become another 3rd world cesspit.
> Burn baby burn.


Ofcourse it's worthless. Muslims ,as per their books and "religion" are ok with lieing to further the cause of islam. Which is jeihad.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Raeven said:


> And I'm simply pointing out that speculating about the vetting process with respect to this woman at this point is irresponsible. We have no idea if there was any vetting process going on at all.
> 
> Just because he returned and she was a wife doesn't mean ICE had any idea she was a spouse. We just don't know, at this point. Did they travel together? Do you know? I don't. Was she pregnant but didn't look pregnant? No agency administers pregnancy tests before someone enters the US on regular travel documents. If the baby is 6 months old, it was likely born in June. If she traveled alone in January, the pregnancy might not even have been obvious.
> 
> I think what you intended to do with your speculation was imply that the vetting process is inadequate. I'm just calling you on that.
> 
> As I have said in other posts around this forum, people coming into this country by way of travel documents alone is a genuinely dangerous practice in our quest for total safety from terrorism (which will never be achieved). There is virtually no vetting process for visitors. That's 20 million people per year. And if you try to vet them in a thorough, meaningful way, you bring business to a screeching halt.
> 
> We are going to have to live with some risk.


No we are not going to have to live w/some risk. We are going to have to stop all immigration from countries that produce juadists on a regular basis. ALL. 
And we are going to have to monitor mosques, close down those that preach jihad & deport their Imams. Interview those who went there- VET. Deport those who are a threat.


----------



## Tricky Grama

no really said:


> I am trying to understand your point here. Do we as a nation discount terrorism from one group until the numbers are more equal to another? Seems being proactive on all possible terrorist activities would be more realistic.
> 
> ISIS became a major player when IMHO were discounted as unimportant, now look at the damage.


Post of the year award.


----------



## Tricky Grama

greg273 said:


> The point is the same as it has been, not all Muslims are terrorists, just as not all rightwingers are terrorists, despite the tiny minority of sociopaths that commit violent actions.
> 
> As far as 'ISIS being discounted as unimportant', when was that? The whole 'JV' thing Obama said was in reference to ALQUEDA, which was indeed reduced to a shadow of its former self. That doesn't mean they are incapable of doing damage. Far from it, a wounded, cornered beast is still capable of inflicting damage, even in a weakened state.


AH, no, I beg to differ! about ISIS, he said they were JV, no worries.


----------



## Tricky Grama

FarmerKat said:


> Thanks for posting the info.
> 
> As for my prior post ... yes, I do believe the vetting process is not adequate. I have been through it myself. I don't happen to be a terrorist but I do not see how asking someone to say (albeit under oath) that they do not plan terrorist attacks against the US is going to stop them from doing it. It's not like no one ever lies ....


Post of the decade award!!!


----------



## Bearfootfarm

greg273 said:


> You can 'vet' or 'screen' somebody all ya want, if they want to cause mayhem, they will. Every criminal had a clean record, at one point.


There you go ruining good rants by using logic and reality at the same time


----------



## poppy

farmrbrown said:


> I figured out the basic motive for this shooting the day after it happened, the details have been coming out from the people who were there that confirm this, but of course the gov't and the media are doing their best to keep the info from the general public.
> Why?
> Because if people learned that this was a planned attack and the trigger was serving pork at a Christmas party - strike that - Holiday party, and that the shooter said he was tired of Islam being disrespected, how do you think the public would react?


If that were the case, we would have another class of terrorism. It wouldn't be workplace violence so I suspect Obama and the liberals would come up with "Holiday Party Violence" or "Food preference violence". Whatever they come up with, it WON"T be Muslim terrorism.


----------



## Sourdough

Exterminate all Humans on planet earth. 

Making "ALL" firearms disappear will NOT do it. 

Making "ALL" sharp objects disappear will not do it.




Tricky Grama said:


> And how do we prevent it? How do you prevent jihad?


----------



## Woolieface

farmrbrown said:


> I figured out the basic motive for this shooting the day after it happened, the details have been coming out from the people who were there that confirm this, but of course the gov't and the media are doing their best to keep the info from the general public.
> Why?
> Because if people learned that this was a planned attack and the trigger was serving pork at a Christmas party - strike that - Holiday party, and that the shooter said he was tired of Islam being disrespected, how do you think the public would react?


Left the party and came back with bombs, guns an accomplice and an armored vehicle. That was the stupidest thing I've ever, to date, heard reported. The scenario went through my head .....

Calls the lady on the phone - "Hey sweetie, want to get some bombs together and go to this Christmas party and off some folks?"

Lady - "Well, I got laundry to do and I'll have to find a babysitter....."

Guy - "They're serving PORK!"

Lady - "Oh well, HECK YEAH, then! I'll get those bombs together."

:huh:


----------



## light rain

I'll admit I haven't read all the posts since yesterday. 

The male shooter's family I have a question about. Are his parents still alive and are they US citizens?

Did the female shooter hold a job as a pharmacist here in the US?

Their rifles were repeatedly termed assault rifles when they were not fully automatic. Is this a media mistake or was that a correct description?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> Left the party and came back with bombs, guns an accomplice and an *armored vehicle*.


Why do you continue to parrot *false* information?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

light rain said:


> I'll admit I haven't read all the posts since yesterday.
> 
> The male shooter's family I have a question about. Are his parents still alive and are they US citizens?
> 
> Did the female shooter hold a job as a pharmacist here in the US?
> 
> Their rifles were repeatedly termed assault rifles when they were not fully automatic. Is this a media mistake or was that a correct description?


The guns were standard off-the-shelf AR-15's, purchased legally
There have been no reports of any modifications to convert them to full auto
The media will lie to push the agenda, much as others do


----------



## poppy

light rain said:


> I'll admit I haven't read all the posts since yesterday.
> 
> The male shooter's family I have a question about. Are his parents still alive and are they US citizens?
> 
> Did the female shooter hold a job as a pharmacist here in the US?
> 
> Their rifles were repeatedly termed assault rifles when they were not fully automatic. Is this a media mistake or was that a correct description?


His parents are alive but divorced. They left their 6 month old child with his mother while they went to kill people. Apparently the 6 month old was not yet proficient enough with guns and bombs to go with them. His mother says she was "shocked" when she learned they did this. It seems everyone is shocked when someone they know murders people. The 2 shooters must have hidden their plans very well.


----------



## 7thswan

I heard the "guns" be called "long guns"- is this going to be the new attack for the gov. 
Second, how come the windshield on the SUV was not shot out, is it because the Police were only allowed to use wimpy ammo?
Third, do we really know if the child is their child, could be used as an excuse for some reason( media sympathy?).
4-the 3rd shooter, the other people comeing and going, the out of state vheilce. I say there is a huge coverup going on by the feds. as not to alert people to how much is really going on with these types.
What this woman is is called a "Black Widow". Don't let her being a mom or a pharma. fool you.


----------



## 7thswan

poppy said:


> His parents are alive but divorced. They left their 6 month old child with his mother while they went to kill people. Apparently the 6 month old was not yet proficient enough with guns and bombs to go with them. His mother says she was "shocked" when she learned they did this. It seems everyone is shocked when someone they know murders people. The 2 shooters must have hidden their plans very well.


I do not belive anything the family says. All horse pucky. other muslims know what their religion teaches,just some of them don't carry things so far. But there is no way they and others didn't know.


----------



## mustangglp

Laura Zone 5 said:


> THEN he would be no different than the PP Shooter Dear........
> 
> Dear was 'offended' by 'baby parts' and felt, in his warped perception of christianity, that HE needed to bring wrath and justice to the 'baby killers'.
> 
> Farook was 'offended' by pork at a Christmas/Holiday party? Tired of his warped perceptions of islam being disrespected?
> 
> OK I'd buy this EXCEPT for the fact Farook came in w/ body armor, pipe bombs, etc.......that he had in his home, ready for ??????
> He didn't just grab a weapon, and go code red......
> 
> But at the end of the day, they could be the EXACT same crimes in the EXACT same place for the EXACT same reasons.......and Farook would be labeled "work place violence" and Dear would be labeled "terrorist".
> Duh


Its clear to me that they were planing something much bigger and the party was trigger to move foward early. The whole pork thing makes it clear that these 2 we're not compatible with our society.


----------



## arabian knight

California massacre shooter pledged allegiance to ISIS -CNN

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Enough Said~!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## Irish Pixie

Has the "pork thing" been conclusively proven as the reason for these killings? If so, can someone provide a link?


----------



## TraderBob

Irish Pixie said:


> Has the "pork thing" been conclusively proven as the reason for these killings? If so, can someone provide a link?


I would say if it is, it was only an excuse to do what they were going to do anyway. 

I know many patriotic Americans that don't eat pork either. I don't think that was their reason, considering all the stuff found at the residence.


----------



## Darren

arabian knight said:


> California massacre shooter pledged allegiance to ISIS -CNN
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Enough Said~!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


That eliminates the hope of work place violence as an excuse for Obama. Someone needs to call him on the golf course and let him know.


----------



## Darren

Irish Pixie said:


> Has the "pork thing" been conclusively proven as the reason for these killings? If so, can someone provide a link?


Link? Did they serve sausage?


----------



## Irish Pixie

Darren said:


> Link? Did they serve sausage?


Boo. Hiss.


----------



## Darren

Reminds me of a Turk that worked briefly on our project as part of a US/Turkish program. We had a lunch with hot dogs. My Jewish supervisor told him the hot dogs were beef. They weren't. They both had a couple.


----------



## wr

arabian knight said:


> California massacre shooter pledged allegiance to ISIS -CNN
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Enough Said~!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


But ISIS has not claimed any part in this so while it may be true, I'm not certain that this was done on behalf of ISIS. 

I also read that one of those killed was Jewish and had a headed discussion with the shooter at an earlier point in the workplace but I don't think that's been proven. 

Perhaps they were planning a large scale act of terrorism for ISIS and something else set him off thus using already laid out plans for a more personal reason.


----------



## Darren

wr said:


> But ISIS has not claimed any part in this so while it may be true, I'm not certain that this was done on behalf of ISIS.
> 
> I also read that one of those killed was Jewish and had a headed discussion with the shooter at an earlier point in the workplace but I don't think that's been proven.
> 
> Perhaps they were planning a large scale act of terrorism for ISIS and something else set him off thus using already laid out plans for a more personal reason.


With the amount of ammo they had, they could have killed a lot more. I'm not sure why they had to run home.


----------



## TripleD

Darren said:


> With the amount of ammo they had, they could have killed a lot more. I'm not sure why they had to run home.


They might have forgotten their prayer rugs.....


----------



## Farmerga

Darren said:


> With the amount of ammo they had, they could have killed a lot more. I'm not sure why they had to run home.


 
From what I understand, the M.O. of these type of Terrorists is to hit a "soft" target first, then try and hit a harder target. The thought being that if the 2nd target turned out to be, lets say, a little too hard, they already have a success and are ensured their group of virgins in paradise.


----------



## Darren

You might be on to something. The shooting must have attracted a lot of LEOs meaning they could then move on and attack another target with less chance of interference.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Could be, or they were planning to kill themselves with cops around them maybe.

In Paris there was that apartment explosion a day or two later.


----------



## poppy

wr said:


> But ISIS has not claimed any part in this so while it may be true, I'm not certain that this was done on behalf of ISIS.
> 
> I also read that one of those killed was Jewish and had a headed discussion with the shooter at an earlier point in the workplace but I don't think that's been proven.
> 
> Perhaps they were planning a large scale act of terrorism for ISIS and something else set him off thus using already laid out plans for a more personal reason.


ISIS may not have known of their intentions at all. They have been urging their followers to attack targets of their own choice at every opportunity. They know it lessens the chance of a plot being uncovered due to chatter or too many knowing about it. So,yes, if he was a follower of ISIS he did it on their behalf.


----------



## Woolieface

There was a swat drill going on not far from the location.

_A call of multiple shots fired first came in at 10:59 a.m. from the area of 1365 S. Waterman Ave. The Police Department&#8217;s SWAT team was training nearby and was suited, &#8220;ready to roll&#8221; and responded rapidly, Lt. Richard Lawhead said._

http://ktla.com/2015/12/02/authorit...hooting-incident-in-san-bernardino-fire-dept/


----------



## arabian knight

poppy said:


> ISIS may not have known of their intentions at all. They have been urging their followers to attack targets of their own choice at every opportunity. They know it lessens the chance of a plot being uncovered due to chatter or too many knowing about it. So,yes, if he was a follower of ISIS he did it on their behalf.


 I don't know if HE was such a follower as his WIFE WAS, and SHE was a leader ISIS leader on Facebook is what reports are saying now. All it takes is one in a family and the rest will follow in this case He Did follow Her.


----------



## HDRider

Among his key points were that âlone wolfâ attackers are of particular concern and that âin many respects, we currently face a greater likelihood of attack than we have seen in years.â Bratton said there have been more than 20 terrorist plots against New York City since 9/11.

Bratton and the NYPDâs deputy commissioner of intelligence and counterterrorism, John Miller, âhave said many times that the âlone wolfâ type of potential attack seems to be a more likely scenarioâ than the larger-scale attacks typically organized by Al-Qaeda, Stephen P. Davis, the NYPD's deputy commissioner of public information, tells Newsweek in an e-mail. This would include lone wolves inspired by the terrorist group Islamic State (also known as ISIS, or ISIL). 

http://www.newsweek.com/september-11-lone-wolf-terrorist-terrorism-nypd-isis-isil-371216

Who'd a thunk it?


----------



## Darren

Woolieface said:


> There was a swat drill going on not far from the location.
> 
> _A call of multiple shots fired first came in at 10:59 a.m. from the area of 1365 S. Waterman Ave. The Police Departmentâs SWAT team was training nearby and was suited, âready to rollâ and responded rapidly, Lt. Richard Lawhead said._
> 
> http://ktla.com/2015/12/02/authorit...hooting-incident-in-san-bernardino-fire-dept/


Did the killers have a scanner? Maybe that's why they stopped killing and went home.


----------



## Woolieface

Darren said:


> Did the killers have a scanner? Maybe that's why they stopped killing and went home.


Not sure about that, but I'm just wondering why there is always a drill going on before or during these things.


----------



## poppy

arabian knight said:


> I don't know if HE was such a follower as his WIFE WAS, and SHE was a leader ISIS leader on Facebook is what reports are saying now. All it takes is one in a family and the rest will follow in this case He Did follow Her.


Then he was stupid. I would have said "You go on ahead and start without me hon. I'll be right behind you".


----------



## 7thswan

Darren said:


> Did the killers have a scanner? Maybe that's why they stopped killing and went home.


Did they go home or did they just cruse past or hang out near, watching to see if cops showed up? To see if they had been found out.


----------



## wr

Darren said:


> With the amount of ammo they had, they could have killed a lot more. I'm not sure why they had to run home.


I believe there was more ammo and pipe bombs at home and the only reason I could think of would be that they may have had another target in mind.

Perhaps the idea was to make a messy distraction somewhere, tie up police and then cause greater destruction.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Maybe their ied failed and when no bomb reports were on the news, they started improvising and decided to head back. I dunno.


----------



## Cornhusker

Bearfootfarm said:


> The guns were standard off-the-shelf AR-15's, purchased legally
> There have been no reports of any modifications to convert them to full auto
> The media will lie to push the agenda, much as others do


I read the guns were illegal in California...maybe they need another law


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Irish Pixie said:


> Has the "pork thing" been conclusively proven as the reason for these killings? If so, can someone provide a link?


I've only heard it on forums, and not in any real news reports.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Woolieface said:


> Not sure about that, but I'm just wondering why there is always a drill going on before or during these things.


Because they train all the time when they aren't actually working
Training is a big part of the job.

There's no "conspiracy" as you are trying to imply


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Cornhusker said:


> I read the guns were illegal in California...maybe they need another law


Yeah, just one more would solve all the problems


----------



## oneraddad

Uh oh... act of terrorism


----------



## Laura Zone 5

Woolieface said:


> Not sure about that, but I'm just wondering why there is always a drill going on before or during these things.


I think you would be stunned at how much these boys train.
I have a couple of friends that are SWAT and they train all the time, all kinds of locations.....Which is fine with me.

I drove past a 'training' this morning on my way to work.


----------



## keenataz

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I think you would be stunned at how much these boys train.
> I have a couple of friends that are SWAT and they train all the time, all kinds of locations.....Which is fine with me.
> 
> I drove past a 'training' this morning on my way to work.


Not to make light of this tragedy, but what else are they going to do. I would guess the vast majority of time they are on stand bye. And it is certainly a good use of that time to train and be ready.

I for one would rather have them over trained than the opposite.


----------



## Woolieface

Laura Zone 5 said:


> I think you would be stunned at how much these boys train.
> I have a couple of friends that are SWAT and they train all the time, all kinds of locations.....Which is fine with me.
> 
> I drove past a 'training' this morning on my way to work.


No doubt, but it's not always swat. Before Paris it was medical emergency responders...the drill then was a mass shooting. During the SC shooting is was a federal law enforcement drill which was active shooter training. DHS scheduled operation urban shield the summer of the Boston bombing...an exercise that involved terrorists leaving explosives in backpacks around Boston. Putnam County Emergency Response Team trained for an active shooter at a school while the Sandy Hook shooting went down....etc.,etc...


----------



## gibbsgirl

Yes. They are not coincidences IMO. It seems they are expecting certain things to go down and then poof they do. Makes me trust less what they say is or is not a threat and instead just watch for what they're practicing for.


----------



## FarmerKat

keenataz said:


> Not to make light of this tragedy, but what else are they going to do. I would guess the vast majority of time they are on stand bye. And it is certainly a good use of that time to train and be ready.
> 
> I for one would rather have them over trained than the opposite.


Not sure how it is in other agencies, but where DH worked (and works now), SWAT team members have a regular job outside of the SWAT. My DH worked road patrol, regular shifts and in addition to that he was on the SWAT team. So no, they were not just on stand-by. The training was above and beyond his regular work schedule and he was on call ALL the time.

ETA: DH's current agency just had everyone go through active shooter training in all schools in the county recently. Nothing happened. I am sure there are way more training exercises than there are actual attacks.


----------



## Woolieface

gibbsgirl said:


> Yes. They are not coincidences IMO. It seems they are expecting certain things to go down and then poof they do. Makes me trust less what they say is or is not a threat and instead just watch for what they're practicing for.


Yep, that's how I look at it. Do we need more post 911 style government intrusion? Keep calm and watch their game...


----------



## oneraddad




----------



## farmrbrown

Bearfootfarm said:


> I see that a lot.
> 
> If *he* proclaimed to be one, he has to be taken at his word even if his actions say otherwise.








Bearfootfarm said:


> For reality.
> If he says he's one, I'n not going to argue the point




That's ridiculous.
The Word said Himself "You shall know them by their fruits".





Bearfootfarm said:


> You need to report that to the FBI agent who was just on TV who said they had found no evidence of that so far.
> 
> He will be glad to have your sources (as would we)


http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-85234644/
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/us/tashfeen-malik-islamic-state.html
They've been announcing that all day.
Same thing when they say someone ISN'T a suspect but a "person of interest."
Just a bald faced lie.




Woolieface said:


> Left the party and came back with bombs, guns an accomplice and an armored vehicle. That was the stupidest thing I've ever, to date, heard reported. The scenario went through my head .....
> 
> Calls the lady on the phone - "Hey sweetie, want to get some bombs together and go to this Christmas party and off some folks?"
> 
> Lady - "Well, I got laundry to do and I'll have to find a babysitter....."
> 
> Guy - "They're serving PORK!"
> 
> Lady - "Oh well, HECK YEAH, then! I'll get those bombs together."
> 
> :huh:



I don't want this to be misunderstood. I was NOT saying the only reason he attacked was because pork was served, this was the excuse he used.
The whole thing was planned well ahead of time, evidenced by the weapons they acquired and their actions, coming quickly already dressed and armed.
There was a heated argument with one of the co-workers killed about Islam being a religion of peace. He had attended this annual party in the past and knew what was in store. It's called a "holiday party" now because of PC, but we all know it as a Christmas party.
He had requested no pork be served and knew it was probably going to be ignored. So this was the trigger he was looking for, and had a response ready for it when it happened.

I don't eat pork and am a Messianic Jew like the one killed, but I don't flip out when it's served at a dinner. I try to eat something else but I know that it won't kill me to eat it and may avoid offending the host if I politely eat a little. 
But to to kill someone because they "disrespect" your religion is the act of a crazed radical and the trigger point just shows how obscene this is.


----------



## Woolieface

oneraddad said:


>


Or that if it floats your boat....


----------



## Patchouli

Woolieface said:


> Well no, that chicken don't really fly, because...
> 
> Murdering people is in direct violation of the basic tenets of Christianity. This includes Muslims and any other non-Christian person.
> 
> Killing Christians, Jews and other non believers is in direct Obedience to the Quran.


I can counter that with bible verses you know. Bits about killing everything but the trees.....

And then the Muslim response to your statement: http://www.justaskislam.com/32/does-islam-say-kill-the-infidels/


----------



## Woolieface

Patchouli said:


> I can counter that with bible verses you know. Bits about killing everything but the trees.....
> 
> And then the Muslim response to your statement: http://www.justaskislam.com/32/does-islam-say-kill-the-infidels/


Was the flood a command for Christians to overwater the garden of Eden? What does the flood have to do with what believers are commanded to do to others?


----------



## Irish Pixie

Patchouli said:


> I can counter that with bible verses you know. Bits about killing everything but the trees.....
> 
> And then the Muslim response to your statement: http://www.justaskislam.com/32/does-islam-say-kill-the-infidels/


You know they're never going to believe that, right? Never, ever. 

The cries of "It's a liberal lie" will ring loud and long. But, but "sharia law!" will be the rallying cry. 

Oops, I forgot to add, "The old testament doesn't count!"


----------



## Woolieface

Irish Pixie said:


> You know they're never going to believe that, right? Never, ever.
> 
> The cries of "It's a liberal lie" will ring loud and long. But, but "sharia law!" will be the rallying cry.


Yeah, that's a great script. Nothing like coaching people how to answer this...

The question isn't answered there. There are no translations of the passages.

The article says *"Combat is only ordered against those who are attacking or killing the innocent Muslims or fighting against the established Muslim state."*

Which would be whom in the eyes of people from countries that have been at war with Western nations for years?


----------



## Patchouli

Woolieface said:


> Was the flood a command for Christians to overwater the garden of Eden? What does the flood have to do with what believers are commanded to do to others?



Deut. 20:
10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
16 *However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes*. 17 Completely destroya]" class="footnote" data-fn="#fen-NIV-5445a">[a] themâthe Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusitesâas the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.
19 When you lay siege to a city for a long time, fighting against it to capture it, *do not destroy its trees by putting an ax to them, because you can eat their fruit. Do not cut them down. Are the trees people, that you should besiege them?*b]" class="footnote" data-fn="#fen-NIV-5447b">[b] 20 However, you may cut down trees that you know are not fruit trees and use them to build siege works until the city at war with you falls.



1 Samuel 15:1 And Samuel said to Saul, câThe Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the Lord. 2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, âI have noted what Amalek did to Israel din opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and edevote to destruction1 all that they have. *Do not spare them, **fbut kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.ââ*



God was pretty specific about killing everyone babies and animals included if they refused to convert and accept Israel as their masters.


----------



## Irish Pixie

Woolieface said:


> Yeah, that's a great script. Nothing like coaching people how to answer this...
> 
> The question isn't answered there. There are no translations of the passages.
> 
> The article says *"Combat is only ordered against those who are attacking or killing the innocent Muslims or fighting against the established Muslim state."*
> 
> Which would be whom in the eyes of people from countries that have been at war with Western nations for years?


Crap. I forgot about the omnipotence...


----------



## Woolieface

Patchouli said:


> Deut. 20:
> 10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
> 16 *However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes*. 17 Completely destroya]" class="footnote" data-fn="#fen-NIV-5445a">[a] themâthe Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusitesâas the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.
> 19 When you lay siege to a city for a long time, fighting against it to capture it, *do not destroy its trees by putting an ax to them, because you can eat their fruit. Do not cut them down. Are the trees people, that you should besiege them?*b]" class="footnote" data-fn="#fen-NIV-5447b">[b] 20 However, you may cut down trees that you know are not fruit trees and use them to build siege works until the city at war with you falls.
> 
> 
> 
> 1 Samuel 15:1 And Samuel said to Saul, câThe Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the Lord. 2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, âI have noted what Amalek did to Israel din opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and edevote to destruction1 all that they have. *Do not spare them, **fbut kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.ââ*
> 
> 
> 
> God was pretty specific about killing everyone babies and animals included if they refused to convert and accept Israel as their masters.


Which one of those was a command to Christians and not to nation going to war before Christians existed?


----------



## light rain

Patchouli, are those verses you refer to Old Testament or New Testament?

As of the New Testament we are not bound by the old law. 

Christians, collectively and individually, have committed sins as every other religious/pagan/atheist group has done. The difference being that they also have been generous to a fault in trying to assist in helping groups/races/other religions worldwide when there is a calamity. The United States has also been generous and gives liberally. 

It seems now is the time to look at where our money, both as individuals and as a country, goes. It is going to prop and nurture people who want to annihilate us? That would not be in our interest of self-preservation. :hohum:


----------



## Old Vet

Patchouli said:


> Deut. 20:
> 10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
> 16 *However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes*. 17 Completely destroya]" class="footnote" data-fn="#fen-NIV-5445a">[a] themâthe Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusitesâas the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.
> 19 When you lay siege to a city for a long time, fighting against it to capture it, *do not destroy its trees by putting an ax to them, because you can eat their fruit. Do not cut them down. Are the trees people, that you should besiege them?*b]" class="footnote" data-fn="#fen-NIV-5447b">[b] 20 However, you may cut down trees that you know are not fruit trees and use them to build siege works until the city at war with you falls.
> 
> 
> 
> 1 Samuel 15:1 And Samuel said to Saul, câThe Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the Lord. 2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, âI have noted what Amalek did to Israel din opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and edevote to destruction1 all that they have. *Do not spare them, **fbut kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.ââ*
> 
> 
> 
> God was pretty specific about killing everyone babies and animals included if they refused to convert and accept Israel as their masters.


And none of this is Cristian it was tolled to the Jews.


----------



## farmrbrown

Patchouli said:


> I can counter that with bible verses you know. Bits about killing everything but the trees.....
> 
> And then the Muslim response to your statement: http://www.justaskislam.com/32/does-islam-say-kill-the-infidels/




From your link.....

*Now let us correct some mistakes in the 'question' itself. There is not such a meaning in the Quran, ordering or even permitting the Muslims to ever attack innocent people whether they are Christians, Jews, or any other faith for that matter.

Combat is only ordered against those who are attacking or killing the innocent Muslims or fighting against the established Muslim state.
*



Irish Pixie said:


> You know they're never going to believe that, right? Never, ever.
> 
> The cries of "It's a liberal lie" will ring loud and long. But, but "sharia law!" will be the rallying cry.




Oh, I believe it all right.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

farmrbrown said:


> That's ridiculous.
> *The Word said* Himself "You shall know them by their fruits".
> 
> http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-85234644/
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/us/tashfeen-malik-islamic-state.html
> *They've been announcing that all day.*
> Same thing when they say someone ISN'T a suspect but a "person of interest."
> Just a bald faced lie.


No, they weren't "announcing it "all day", because I watched the live *10:00 AM* news conference when they made the statement.

Anything to the contrary came later

Bible verses have nothing to do with what I'm talking about
If Dear claimed to be "Christian", I will believe that, just as I believe everyone who *says* they are, no matter how their actions belie the words


----------



## Cornhusker

Irish Pixie said:


> You know they're never going to believe that, right? Never, ever.
> 
> The cries of "It's a liberal lie" will ring loud and long. But, but "sharia law!" will be the rallying cry.
> 
> Oops, I forgot to add, "The old testament doesn't count!"


It doesn't


----------



## gibbsgirl

Woolieface said:


> Yep, that's how I look at it. Do we need more post 911 style government intrusion? Keep calm and watch their game...


Yep, the TSA and similar intrusions are over the top and unconstitutional.

I have no idea why they keep practicing stuff right before it happens. Could be because of false flags, etc or it could be because they will not tell the public about what they have Intel on and expect to happen.

Either way, it's happened too often to be random coincidences IMO.


----------



## farmrbrown

Bearfootfarm said:


> No, they weren't "announcing it "all day", because I watched the live *10:00 AM* news conference when they made the statement.
> 
> Anything to the contrary came later
> 
> Bible verses have nothing to do with what I'm talking about
> If Dear claimed to be "Christian", I will believe that, just as I believe everyone who *says* they are, no matter how their actions belie the words


I saw the statements this morning at 7am on CBS, my "day" started before then, but then, I'm like that.

If you think bible verses from Christ, the entire basis of Christianity and the ultimate authority on who is and isn't a christian has "nothing to do with it", then I guess the absurdity speaks for itself.


----------



## greg273

Cornhusker said:


> It doesn't


 Yeah right. I'l keep that in mind next time a Christian starts ranting about how 'god hates gays' and then quotes the old testament.

Oh wait, he doesn't 'hate them', just hates what they are, that sound about right?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

farmrbrown said:


> I saw the statements *this morning* at 7am on CBS, my "day" started before then, but then, I'm like that.


And I posted YESTERDAY so what you saw *this morning* means nothing at all. 



> If you think bible verses from Christ, the entire basis of Christianity and the ultimate authority on who is and isn't a christian has "nothing to do with it", then I guess the absurdity speaks for itself


*He *claimed to be a "Christian".

You quoting verses won't change that, and really have nothing to do with what I said. 

I see it more as something many do when they have nothing else logical to add


----------



## farmrbrown

Irish Pixie said:


> Oops, I forgot to add, "The old testament doesn't count!"





Cornhusker said:


> It doesn't



I beg to differ......

I somewhat understand why you would say it, but rather than try to convince you otherwise, I'll address the quoted post instead.



Patchouli said:


> Deut. 20:
> 10 When you march up to attack a city,* make its people an offer of peace. *11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12* If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.* 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
> 16 *However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes*. 17 *Completely destroya]" class="footnote" data-fn="#fen-NIV-5445a">[a] them&#8212;the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites*&#8212;as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.
> 19 When you lay siege to a city for a long time, fighting against it to capture it, *do not destroy its trees by putting an ax to them, because you can eat their fruit. Do not cut them down. Are the trees people, that you should besiege them?*b]" class="footnote" data-fn="#fen-NIV-5447b">[b] 20 However, you may cut down trees that you know are not fruit trees and use them to build siege works until the city at war with you falls.
> 
> 
> 
> 1 Samuel 15:1 And Samuel said to Saul, c&#8220;The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the Lord. 2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, &#8216;I have noted what Amalek did to Israel din opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3* Now go and strike Amalek *and edevote to destruction1 all that they have. *Do not spare them, **fbut kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.&#8217;&#8221;*
> 
> 
> 
> God was pretty specific about killing everyone babies and animals included if they refused to convert and accept Israel as their masters.




The previous 9 verses are important as well, to the reference of Israel's ENEMIES.
God never told Israel to attack and destroy peaceful nations. 
In the Deuteronomy passage you quoted there are 2 important conditions that are specified.

1) To ask for a peaceful surrender of their enemy FIRST and to honor it.

2) There are six nations targeted only. Knowing the history and the reasons why for those six, explains the reason for their prescribed destruction.
You may *assume* it was because they were of a different religion, but it was much more than that.


As for Amalek, the same applies.
Read up on Amalek and you may understand this passage better.
Then again, understanding begins with reverence for God........

Proverbs 1:7


----------



## greg273

farmrbrown said:


> I beg to differ......
> 
> 
> God never told Israel to attack and destroy peaceful nations.
> .


 You're right. 'God' didn't tell anybody anything, that was MOSES claiming to speak for God. Quite a coincidence, in the books the Jews themselves wrote, they claim their God gave them rights to that land.


----------



## farmrbrown

greg273 said:


> You're right. 'God' didn't tell anybody anything, that was MOSES claiming to speak for God. Quite a coincidence, in the books the Jews themselves wrote, they claim their God gave them rights to that land.


Yep.
Here's another "coincidence".
They have that same land today.


----------



## wiscto

greg273 said:


> You're right. 'God' didn't tell anybody anything, that was MOSES claiming to speak for God. Quite a coincidence, in the books the Jews themselves wrote, they claim their God gave them rights to that land.


And the right to kill whoever happened to be on it.


----------



## farmrbrown

wiscto said:


> And the right to kill whoever happened to be on it.


That is false.


----------



## greg273

farmrbrown said:


> Yep.
> Here's another "coincidence".
> They have that same land today.


 Not really a 'coincidence'. Most ancient tribes still inhabit the land of their ancestors. The Germanic barbarian tribes are still in Germany, the decendants of the Romans are still in Italy, the Rus and the Slavs are still in Russia.


----------



## farmrbrown

greg273 said:


> Not really a 'coincidence'. Most ancient tribes still inhabit the land of their ancestors. The Germanic barbarian tribes are still in Germany, the decendants of the Romans are still in Italy, the Rus and the Slavs are still in Russia.


I reckon then, God must know what He's doing.


----------



## Tricky Grama

HDRider said:


> Among his key points were that &#8220;lone wolf&#8221; attackers are of particular concern and that &#8220;in many respects, we currently face a greater likelihood of attack than we have seen in years.&#8221; Bratton said there have been more than 20 terrorist plots against New York City since 9/11.
> 
> Bratton and the NYPD&#8217;s deputy commissioner of intelligence and counterterrorism, John Miller, &#8220;have said many times that the &#8216;lone wolf&#8217; type of potential attack seems to be a more likely scenario&#8221; than the larger-scale attacks typically organized by Al-Qaeda, Stephen P. Davis, the NYPD's deputy commissioner of public information, tells Newsweek in an e-mail. This would include lone wolves inspired by the terrorist group Islamic State (also known as ISIS, or ISIL).
> 
> http://www.newsweek.com/september-11-lone-wolf-terrorist-terrorism-nypd-isis-isil-371216
> 
> Who'd a thunk it?


If something isn't done, we'll see more & more like this. One thing that I thought of today was that this was not a large city-NYC, f.i.-its coming to a town near you...


----------



## gibbsgirl

Oh my. This sounds like the same crazy thing just happened in Cairo.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...lled-in-molotov-cocktail-attack-a6759876.html

Employee or ex-employee bombs restaurant. It was in the basement, no way for people to escape. 16-18 dead.

This stinks of being terrorism or work place violence or whatever it's being called now.


----------



## Tricky Grama

light rain said:


> Patchouli, are those verses you refer to Old Testament or New Testament?
> 
> As of the New Testament we are not bound by the old law.
> 
> Christians, collectively and individually, have committed sins as every other religious/pagan/atheist group has done. The difference being that they also have been generous to a fault in trying to assist in helping groups/races/other religions worldwide when there is a calamity. The United States has also been generous and gives liberally.
> 
> It seems now is the time to look at where our money, both as individuals and as a country, goes. It is going to prop and nurture people who want to annihilate us? That would not be in our interest of self-preservation. :hohum:


Yup. 'Splain it one more time. 
Won't matter. If they hate Christians, they'll keep right on quoting the old testament & say "See!". 
Look what Christians believe...


----------



## Tricky Grama

greg273 said:


> Yeah right. I'l keep that in mind next time a Christian starts ranting about how 'god hates gays' and then quotes the old testament.
> 
> Oh wait, he doesn't 'hate them', just hates what they are, that sound about right?


Ya gotta quit hanging w/WBC...


----------



## farmrbrown

*Today 07:43 PM*
Bearfootfarm	
Quote:




Bearfootfarm said:


> No, they weren't "announcing it "all day", because I watched the live *10:00 AM* news conference when they made the statement.
> 
> Anything to the contrary came later
> 
> Bible verses have nothing to do with what I'm talking about
> If Dear claimed to be "Christian", I will believe that, just as I believe everyone who *says* they are, no matter how their actions belie the words








Bearfootfarm said:


> And I posted YESTERDAY so what you saw *this morning* means nothing at all.
> 
> 
> *He *claimed to be a "Christian".
> 
> You quoting verses won't change that, and really have nothing to do with what I said.
> 
> I see it more as something many do when they have nothing else logical to add



So when I "claimed" that the FBI acknowledged this morning that this was terrorism and the couple had made contacts with other extremists.......does that mean you take me at my word and is accurate?


----------



## Laura Zone 5

Farmerbrown, I am not laughing at you, not one single bit, but your last post makes me want to laugh out loud, and hard.

It is the reaction I have when I try to reason with a brick wall.


----------



## farmrbrown

Laura Zone 5 said:


> Farmerbrown, I am not laughing at you, not one single bit, but your last post makes me want to laugh out loud, and hard.
> 
> It is the reaction I have when I try to reason with a brick wall.



No biggie.
My reaction is to reach for the aspirin bottle, lol.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> So when I "claimed" that the FBI acknowledged this morning that this was terrorism and the couple had made contacts with other extremists.......does that mean you take me at my word and is accurate?


That has nothing to do with Dear and *his* own proclamations about his faith, and neither do Bible verses.

I don't know why you think that is going to change


----------



## Patchouli

Woolieface said:


> Which one of those was a command to Christians and not to nation going to war before Christians existed?


Go back and read the Islam page again. That's exactly what they said too that those killing passages apply only when Muslims are at war. And you don't get to slough it off with the excuse that was the Jews and we have Jesus. Christians have used those passages in war too.


----------



## Patchouli

gibbsgirl said:


> Yep, the TSA and similar intrusions are over the top and unconstitutional.
> 
> I have no idea why they keep practicing stuff right before it happens. Could be because of false flags, etc or it could be because they will not tell the public about what they have Intel on and expect to happen.
> 
> Either way, it's happened too often to be random coincidences IMO.


Because after the Black Friday Planned Parenthood shooting it just makes no sense at all that a SWAT team would want to run a drill in case of a similar shooter situation.  

Once again start with the obvious reason and it makes perfect sense unless you just really want a conspiracy theory spin.


----------



## Woolieface

Patchouli said:


> Go back and read the Islam page again. That's exactly what they said too that those killing passages apply only when Muslims are at war. And you don't get to slough it off with the excuse that was the Jews and we have Jesus. Christians have used those passages in war too.


Murder violates the tenets of Christianity. 
Here is what I'm talking about....

*But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;- Mat. 5:44*


----------



## Patchouli

farmrbrown said:


> I beg to differ......
> 
> I somewhat understand why you would say it, but rather than try to convince you otherwise, I'll address the quoted post instead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The previous 9 verses are important as well, to the reference of Israel's ENEMIES.
> God never told Israel to attack and destroy peaceful nations.
> In the Deuteronomy passage you quoted there are 2 important conditions that are specified.
> 
> 1) To ask for a peaceful surrender of their enemy FIRST and to honor it.
> 
> 2) There are six nations targeted only. Knowing the history and the reasons why for those six, explains the reason for their prescribed destruction.
> You may *assume* it was because they were of a different religion, but it was much more than that.
> 
> 
> As for Amalek, the same applies.
> Read up on Amalek and you may understand this passage better.
> Then again, understanding begins with reverence for God........
> 
> Proverbs 1:7





> 16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy themâthe Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusitesâas the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 *Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.*


That seems pretty clear it is mainly a religious reason. The nations may have been put on the conquer list for their sins but the complete annihilation even of babes in arms was purely religious.


----------



## Patchouli

Woolieface said:


> Murder violates the tenets of Christianity.
> Here is what I'm talking about....
> 
> *But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;- Mat. 5:44*


So you believe America should never go to war as a Christian nation then?


----------



## gibbsgirl

Patchouli said:


> Because after the Black Friday Planned Parenthood shooting it just makes no sense at all that a SWAT team would want to run a drill in case of a similar shooter situation.
> 
> Once again start with the obvious reason and it makes perfect sense unless you just really want a conspiracy theory spin.


Huh? I'm not sure what you're saying.

I was trying to say, that there have definitely been a lot of terribly tragedies that seemed to have drills right before or day of that were eerily similar to what actually happened.

Too weird to me to be a coincidence. Don't know why. But, it makes me more interested in what security type drills are being practiced than what the public is generally warned about.

Maybe, the govt doesn't want to panic the public, so they holdback telling what's really a concern? But, they can't completely hide what drills they practice. So, I find that info very useful to follow when it comes out. It shows me what scenarios they think are likely enough that first responders better be trained.


----------



## farmrbrown

Bearfootfarm said:


> That has nothing to do with Dear and *his* own proclamations about his faith, and neither do Bible verses.
> 
> I don't know why you think that is going to change


Oh, I know.
I realized that when you said whatever Christ said in the Bible had no bearing on whether Dear was really a christian or not. 
If he claimed it, you believe it.

I also know *my* claim is irrelevant to Dear.
What I asked was, would you give me at least the same credibility as him?
Simple question.
Must be a difficult answer.
:huh:


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> I was trying to say, that there have definitely been a lot of terribly tragedies that seemed to have drills right before or day of that were eerily similar to what actually happened.
> 
> *Too weird to me to be a coincidence*. Don't know why. But, it makes me more interested in what security type drills are being practiced than what the public is generally warned about.


There's really nothing "weird"

They train all the time, and you don't hear about them until something else happens.
Then some conspiracy nut starts a rumor about it and it takes on a life of it's own.

Sort of how some keep claiming the latest shooting involved "body armor" and an "armored vehicle" when that's not true at all, and they know it.

It doesn't fit the agenda, so they ignore it


----------



## Patchouli

gibbsgirl said:


> Huh? I'm not sure what you're saying.
> 
> I was trying to say, that there have definitely been a lot of terribly tragedies that seemed to have drills right before or day of that were eerily similar to what actually happened.
> 
> Too weird to me to be a coincidence. Don't know why. But, it makes me more interested in what security type drills are being practiced than what the public is generally warned about.
> 
> Maybe, the govt doesn't want to panic the public, so they holdback telling what's really a concern? But, they can't completely hide what drills they practice. So, I find that info very useful to follow when it comes out. It shows me what scenarios they think are likely enough that first responders better be trained.


That's because we are having a mass shooting every day so far this year. It's inevitable that a drill will coincide with an attack sadly.


----------



## farmrbrown

Quote:
16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy themâthe Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusitesâas the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.




Patchouli said:


> That seems pretty clear it is mainly a religious reason. The nations may have been put on the conquer list for their sins but the complete annihilation even of babes in arms was purely religious.




Religion certainly played a part in it, but what do you think the "detestable acts" were?
Do you think it was just the fact they were of a different religion?
What was it they were *doing*?


----------



## Patchouli

farmrbrown said:


> Quote:
> 16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy themâ*the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites*âas the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.
> 
> 
> Religion certainly played a part in it, but what do you think the "detestable acts" were?
> Do you think it was just the fact they were of a different religion?
> What was it they were *doing*?


Having just skimmed all the passages that specifically refer to that group of people I don't know. It doesn't say.


----------



## HDRider

Sharia Law = Radical Islamic Terrorists


----------



## no really

Just read that the female shooter lied on her visa app. She used a non-existent home address, nice vetting guys!


----------



## farmrbrown

Patchouli said:


> Having just skimmed all the passages that specifically refer to that group of people I don't know. It doesn't say.


Try Duet. 18:9 and a few other places describing the practices of worshipping Baal and Molek.
It's only my opinion of course, but sacrificing your children by fire could very well be one of the main reasons this was too detestable to allow.


----------



## Wanda

If it is all about Islamic terror, why is the wife the head of the plot? When I read the views on this board about women and Shari law, it is never talking about women being leaders of men?


----------



## Laura Zone 5

It appears to be a new tactic.
Women have no value, therefore they can be manipulated, and used as fodder for their cause. 
They are NOT leaders of men.......men control them, guide them, tell them what to do.
Any human that is oppressed will do just about anything to feel the weight of that oppression lifted, even if it's under false pretenses.


----------



## no really

Wanda said:


> If it is all about Islamic terror, why is the wife the head of the plot? When I read the views on this board about women and Shari law, it is never talking about women being leaders of men?


Did she lead or radicalize her partner? Have you heard of the Black Widows? They have been mainly Chechen but have expanded.

http://www.trackingterrorism.org/group/black-widows-chechen-republic


----------



## Darren

I don't think the woman was the head of the plot. So far Farook has always been described as a devout Muslim who attended to his prayers. The last thing TPTB want out there is for people to zero in on is that. Better to counter with the woman was the radicalizer and head of the operation not the homie.

The other option means every devout Muslim is suspect. That's the reason the AG came out so early in the process saying anti-muslim attacks would be prosecuted.

Whether you understand it or not, there's a "marketing" effort ongoing to sway public opinion. Getting balled up in a male/female, female/male discussion is irrelevant. The religion is the relevant factor as it should be with a Christian terrorist too.

It was an equal partnership. 

People in their gut know the truth and they are arming themselves.


----------



## mreynolds

no really said:


> Just read that the female shooter lied on her visa app. She used a non-existent home address, nice vetting guys!


True story. I was legally adopted but my birth father was still alive. Long story short my birth father remarried my mother when I was 11. I got my SS number in my fathers name as well as DL and whatever and never knew I had been adopted. Paid taxes in that name. 

Fast forward to 2005 in the height of the patriot act crack down. My wife and I wanted to go on a cruise. I paid and went to get my visa and found out I "didn't exist". I went to lawyer and he said he would fix it but it would take maybe 4 months. The records were sealed and legally I was not who I said I was so I could not access them. The cruise was a month away. My cruise agent told me that I could go anywhere in the world on a Sam's card. So I went and got a Sam's card in my adopted name and went to 4 countries without a problem. 

The only stares we got from anyone was the fact that we had "two different" last names and wedding rings on.


----------



## poppy

Patchouli said:


> Having just skimmed all the passages that specifically refer to that group of people I don't know. It doesn't say.


There are articles on it. Here's a decent one. Those groups were into several things forbidden by God and He did not want His people to become involved in them. Those people knew better but did it any way. Remember, these were the times of the establishment of the Jewish nation in a land occupied by several heathen nations. After the nation of Israel was established and able to take care of itself, they fought several wars but there are few if any commands to totally wipe out other peoples. In one case they were instructed to wipe out one of their own tribes, Benjamin, for sins they were committing and they nearly did. These commands to destroy entire groups of people were unique to those times for unique reasons and did not persist in future interactions between Israel and other people. Likewise, there are no commands for Christians to do it today. 

http://christianthinktank.com/qamorite.html


----------



## J.T.M.

Wanda said:


> If it is all about Islamic terror, why is the wife the head of the plot? When I read the views on this board about women and Shari law, it is never talking about women being leaders of men?


Jihadi Jezebel .... the things we men do for - well you know 

Then theres this : 
Attorney general Loretta Lynch now says the doj will prosecute hate speech directed towards Muslims. 
Now we all know that hate speech ~ whos going to define it ? ~ is not cool . 

Regardless , your/our first amendment rights are officially circling the drain.


----------



## Woolieface

Patchouli said:


> So you believe America should never go to war as a Christian nation then?


Are we a Christian nation? It takes the leaders of this country...the people that can make the decisions to be acting as Christians in order to apply that standard to what we are doing, as a country, in this world. I would not say that we have Christians making those decisions and I would also say that we the people rarely really know the true reasons our government went to war. So all I can answer is that direct defense of the people of this country is the only war I condone, personally.


----------



## Woolieface

[No message]


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Patchouli said:


> That's because we are having *a mass shooting every day so far this year*. It's inevitable that a drill will coincide with an attack sadly.


Not by the official definition.
You're getting a twisted anti-gun version of reality there:

http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/03/3...-meaningless-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/



> 355?! Why This Number Is *Meaningless* When It Comes To Mass Shootings





> Of the 355 âmass shootingsâ noted by the Post, only 40 of them (about 11 percent) meet the threshold of a âmass murderâ as defined by the FBI, meaning there were at least four fatalities.
> 
> But even these werenât all mass shootings in the conventional sense. As pointed out by the Washington Free Beacon, many of them were instead grisly murder-suicides, gangland massacres, or robberies, eliminating at least 15 more âmass shootingsâ from the list.
> 
> The FBI found *only 160 âactive shooter incidentsâ between 2000 and 2013*, when gang-related shootings were excepted, but those where nobody was shot or killed were included.


Don't parrot the spin without digging for details


----------



## Raeven

no really said:


> Just read that the female shooter lied on her visa app. She used a non-existent home address, nice vetting guys!


That's hugely disingenuous, and you know it. She came into this country on a 90-day *visitor's visa, same as 25 million other people do every single year*. There is *no* "vetting process" attached to that. As I have said, that is an enormous vulnerability to us, but I don't see a reasonable way to stop it. Do you?

She later applied for temporary residency status on a K-1 visa after she was married and already living in the country, and we have no idea where ICE was in that process -- or whether she was or would have been approved to stay.

My respect for your opinions diminishes every moment. Advance your hateful agenda all you want, but at least do it on the actual facts of the situation, not lies.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's really nothing "weird"
> 
> They train all the time, and you don't hear about them until something else happens.
> Then some conspiracy nut starts a rumor about it and it takes on a life of it's own.
> 
> Sort of how some keep claiming the latest shooting involved "body armor" and an "armored vehicle" when that's not true at all, and they know it.
> 
> It doesn't fit the agenda, so they ignore it


My point was that it doesn't have to be a conspiracy. Ultimately, it really doesn't matter.

I was saying, I see a lot of what the terror alert or reassurances, security procedures or whatever information that the public is told to be less useful when figuring out what the dangers are.

I find it more useful when I hear what the training drills are because there have been several that are spot on almost exact training for what actually happens. And, the first responders who are practicing them end up being the same first responders who need those drills.

So, tsa and all the other metal detectors and whatever does not seem to be any indication of danger at this point IMO. However, if I hear that the first responders are training for a problem somewhere near me, say at a college stadium. That now catches my attention much more. And, I will likely steer clear of it for awhile.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Raeven said:


> That's hugely disingenuous, and you know it. She came into this country on a 90-day *visitor's visa, same as 25 million other people do every single year*. There is *no* "vetting process" attached to that. As I have said, that is an enormous vulnerability to us, but I don't see a reasonable way to stop it. Do you?
> 
> She later applied for temporary residency status on a K-1 visa after she was married and already living in the country, and we have no idea where ICE was in that process -- or whether she was or would have been approved to stay.
> 
> My respect for your opinions diminishes every moment. Advance your hateful agenda all you want, but at least do it on the actual facts of the situation, not lies.


I would think there is at least minimal vetting since no fky lists would likely block a person with a visitor visa from flying in here.


----------



## no really

Raeven said:


> That's hugely disingenuous, and you know it. She came into this country on a 90-day *visitor's visa, same as 25 million other people do every single year*. There is *no* "vetting process" attached to that. As I have said, that is an enormous vulnerability to us, but I don't see a reasonable way to stop it. Do you?
> 
> She later applied for temporary residency status on a K-1 visa after she was married and already living in the country, and we have no idea where ICE was in that process -- or whether she was or would have been approved to stay.
> 
> My respect for your opinions diminishes every moment. Advance your hateful agenda all you want, but at least do it on the actual facts of the situation, not lies.




Hateful agenda where? I simply stated a fact. I am suspecting you might have an agenda also, since any discussion of vetting is considered a threat.

I have the forms sitting in front of me for filing (I-129F) the questions are on it concerning history.


----------



## Raeven

gibbsgirl said:


> I would think there is at least minimal vetting since no fky lists would likely block a person with a visitor visa from flying in here.


Was she on a no-fly list? Can you show that she was? What you "think" doesn't mean much in the discussion. What is the truth? 

Have you flown abroad since 9/11? I have. Every country requires you to state an address for your destination both coming and going. I haven't always known the address of the person with whom I was staying, at least not sitting on the plane where I was asked to give that information on a form. I wrote down what I knew, and it may have been inaccurate. No one checks that information unless they already have a reason to, and I don't see anything prior to her actions in San Bernardino that would have flagged her for further checking at the time of her entry into the USA.

I'm quite open to being shown where I'm in error about that, of course.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Patchouli said:


> Go back and read the Islam page again. That's exactly what they said too that those killing passages apply only when Muslims are at war. And you don't get to slough it off with the excuse that was the Jews and we have Jesus. Christians have used those passages in war too.


The bottom line is: NO Christians are jihadists NONE! This is almost exclusive to Islam, the theocratic political entity heck bent on destroying western civilization to set up their worldwide caliphate. Period.

Are there Christians who kill? Of course. Do the do it in the name of Presbytarianism? Lutheranism? Do they? 

I'm wondering what the tune will be of the 3-5% of those in this country who believe as you do regarding Christians-not Islamist-when these horrific acts start to be a monthly, or weekly occurrence.

Coming to a town near you...


----------



## Darren

gibbsgirl said:


> I would think there is at least minimal vetting since no fky lists would likely block a person with a visitor visa from flying in here.


They shouldn't get a visa if they're on the no-fly list. Unfortunately we had people on the watch list that were employed at airports.

http://www.newser.com/story/207975/tsa-hired-73-workers-on-terror-watchlist-dhs.html


----------



## Raeven

no really said:


> Hateful agenda where? I simply stated a fact. I am suspecting you might have an agenda also, since any discussion of vetting is considered a threat.
> 
> I have the forms sitting in front of me for filing (I-129F) the questions are on it concerning history.


I have no "agenda," and I certainly don't consider discussion of vetting a "threat." What you seem to be failing to grasp is, *she did not come into the country on a K-1 visa. She came into the country on a visitor's visa.* I have repeatedly said we have far greater vulnerability from the 25 million foreign visitors to this country. It doesn't matter about the K-1 visa, because so far as we can tell, that process wasn't completed. We don't know when they applied for that status or where ICE was in the process of vetting. *But no vetting is attached to arriving on a visitor's visa, and so to say she was going through some vetting process at the time of her entry into this country is wrong.*


----------



## Tricky Grama

no really said:


> Just read that the female shooter lied on her visa app. She used a non-existent home address, nice vetting guys!


Well, that won't be a problem w/Syrians b/c they won't have home addresses to check. One less step. Our govt will just phone assads gov & ask if these folks are ok...then ask the folks. Sure.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Wanda said:


> If it is all about Islamic terror, why is the wife the head of the plot? When I read the views on this board about women and Shari law, it is never talking about women being leaders of men?


Only when they are heck bent on murdering as many of us as possible.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Raeven said:


> Was she on a no-fly list? Can you show that she was? What you "think" doesn't mean much in the discussion. What is the truth?
> 
> Have you flown abroad since 9/11? I have. Every country requires you to state an address for your destination both coming and going. I haven't always known the address of the person with whom I was staying, at least not sitting on the plane where I was asked to give that information on a form. I wrote down what I knew, and it may have been inaccurate. No one checks that information unless they already have a reason to, and I don't see anything prior to her actions in San Bernardino that would have flagged her for further checking at the time of her entry into the USA.
> 
> I'm quite open to being shown where I'm in error about that, of course.


I made no claim about her situation. I was saying it would seem there is some vetting in existence, after you said there was none. The no fly list was my example.


----------



## painterswife

Raven, they are reporting dhe came on a Fiancee visa.


----------



## no really

Raeven said:


> I have no "agenda," and I certainly don't consider discussion of vetting a "threat." What you seem to be failing to grasp is, *she did not come into the country on a K-1 visa. She came into the country on a visitor's visa.* I have repeatedly said we have far greater vulnerability from the 25 million foreign visitors to this country. It doesn't matter about the K-1 visa, because so far as we can tell, that process wasn't completed. We don't know when they applied for that status or where ICE was in the process of vetting. *But no vetting is attached to arriving on a visitor's visa, and so to say she was going through some vetting process at the time of her entry into this country is wrong.*



The lack of vetting was on the consular level at which time she needed proof of residence.


----------



## Raeven

painterswife said:


> Raven, they are reporting dhe came on a Fiancee visa.


I have not heard that, and I would question whether it is accurate. My understanding of the time line is that they came in together in July 2014, her on a visitor's visa. They were married after she arrived here, and then applied for a K-1 visa, which is commonly referred to as a fiance's visa because there are two ways to do it: 1) Apply and be approved to come into the country and marry your spouse; and 2) Come into the country, get married and then apply.

Having gone through the process myself, I know how long it can take to obtain approval on a K-1 visa to get permission *before* you enter the country. 

If someone can show me something specific that shows she was approved on a fiance visa before entering the country, then I will wholeheartedly apologize for my comments. I haven't yet seen that, and my review of the timeline of their activities shows they were unmarried at the time of her arrival here.

I am not saying the vetting process is absolutely foolproof. I am saying it's pretty intensive, and catching a wrong address is pretty elemental to the process.


----------



## Raeven

gibbsgirl said:


> I made no claim about her situation. I was saying it would seem there is some vetting in existence, after you said there was none. The no fly list was my example.


Different things entirely. Flying back and forth alone will not get you on a no-fly list. Your activities in your home country do.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Here's a triple suicide in Chad. 30 dead, 80 injured. This is in boko haram area if Africa.

No one has claimed responsibility yet.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0TO0FM20151205

This is why it seems the jihad model has shifted to being less about missions from HQ and more about inspiring followers anywhere to do jihad wherever they can.

It's happening all over the world.

Our gun laws, and security protocols, etc do not make us unique in dealing with this or being a target. We need to shut down our open borders policies, and clean house here dealing with people who hurt others within our borders.

If we don't tighten up the flow of people, we have no chance of making progress and will be stuck sharing tragic headlines with a lot of other countries.


----------



## Tricky Grama

Raeven said:


> That's hugely disingenuous, and you know it. She came into this country on a 90-day *visitor's visa, same as 25 million other people do every single year*. There is *no* "vetting process" attached to that. As I have said, that is an enormous vulnerability to us, but I don't see a reasonable way to stop it. Do you?
> 
> She later applied for temporary residency status on a K-1 visa after she was married and already living in the country, and we have no idea where ICE was in that process -- or whether she was or would have been approved to stay.
> 
> My respect for your opinions diminishes every moment. Advance your hateful agenda all you want, but at least do it on the actual facts of the situation, not lies.


I deeply resent your calling us hateful. I could just as easily call you a terrorist supporter. 
You claim there's nothing to be done to stop these jihadists from coming here...that No really lied about the vetting of this evil terrorist...you & others of your ilk are the problem. 
There will be more & more of these evil being doing horrendous things to innocent Americans yet you say WE have a hateful agenda. Amazing.


----------



## Raeven

painterswife said:


> Raven, they are reporting dhe came on a Fiancee visa.


Ok, I've done some looking and I apologize. It does appear widely reported that she came in on the K-1 fiance visa, not a visitor's visa.

I'm not sure where they slipped up, but it does appear that they did.

no really, I am sorry for maligning your intent.


----------



## Raeven

Tricky Grama said:


> I deeply resent your calling us hateful. I could just as easily call you a terrorist supporter.
> You claim there's nothing to be done to stop these jihadists from coming here...that No reall lied about the vetting of this evil terrorist...you & others of your ilk are the problem.
> There will be more & more of these evil being doing horrendous things to innocent Americans yet you say WE have a hateful agenda. Amazing.


So long as you continue to paint with your big broad brush and conflate all Muslims with terrorists, you are advancing a hateful agenda. To hate all Muslims as you do, many hundreds of thousands who live in this country peaceably every day as useful, productive and good American citizens, is xenophobic in the extreme. We need to address the actual threats of terrorism to our safety -- not the ones you perceive in your hysteria of hatred.

As for your opinion of me, it would be difficult for me to express how little I care about that.


----------



## hippygirl

I think we all know there are "holes" when it comes to foreigners entering the country regardless of their reason/purpose for being here.

The question is "how do we close them?". I realize one's knee-jerk reaction might be "close the borders", but, in all honesty, I cannot see that happening. Can we "vet" EVERY SINGLE PERSON who wishes to enter? NOPE! Why? Because it would take a staggering amount of time/resources to do so and, as we have seen in other situations (not necessarily in the US), vetting is largely a waste of time/resources, especially when those being vetted are from third world countries (or only slightly above)...vetting is effective ONLY if the information received is accurate.

Those who would do us harm WILL find a way to do so. If that means they come in on a visitor's visa, a fiancee visa, a student visa, as a refugee, or slip across a border in the middle of the night, then that is what they will do.

They're already here and they are (apparently) patient. How do we identify them? While it's true that there are a lot of Muslims who would do us harm, it's also true that there are a lot who wouldn't, so what do we do? As we cannot be proactive (can't convict someone of a crime they MIGHT commit), all we can realistically do is be reactive and handle each situation as it arises.

Short of rounding up every Muslim or Muslim wannabe in this country and putting them out, locking down the borders, or be willing to convict/punish people of crimes they "might" commit, I don't see any other way to ensure (and I use that word very loosely) our safety (and no, I'm not advocating that we do so...just making a point).

_Just a random little "what if" here...reckon how the markets (US and global) would react if we shut the gate? Guess that's a thought to ponder in another thread...

_


----------



## Darren

gibbsgirl said:


> Here's a triple suicide in Chad. 30 dead, 80 injured. This is in boko haram area if Africa.
> 
> No one has claimed responsibility yet.
> 
> http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0TO0FM20151205
> 
> *This is why it seems the jihad model has shifted to being less about missions from HQ and more about inspiring followers anywhere to do jihad wherever they can.*
> 
> It's happening all over the world.
> 
> Our gun laws, and security protocols, etc do not make us unique in dealing with this or being a target. We need to shut down our open borders policies, and clean house here dealing with people who hurt others within our borders.
> 
> If we don't tighten up the flow of people, we have no chance of making progress and will be stuck sharing tragic headlines with a lot of other countries.


This is the crux of the situation. ISIS considers themselves the true line back to Mohamed and true followers of the Quran. Anyone else are either apostates or infidels to be dealt with according to the tenets of the Quran.

In their eyes what happened in San Bernandino was righteous. It was not deviant.


----------



## Patchouli

poppy said:


> There are articles on it. Here's a decent one. Those groups were into several things forbidden by God and He did not want His people to become involved in them. Those people knew better but did it any way. Remember, these were the times of the establishment of the Jewish nation in a land occupied by several heathen nations. After the nation of Israel was established and able to take care of itself, they fought several wars but there are few if any commands to totally wipe out other peoples. In one case they were instructed to wipe out one of their own tribes, Benjamin, for sins they were committing and they nearly did. These commands to destroy entire groups of people were unique to those times for unique reasons and did not persist in future interactions between Israel and other people. Likewise, there are no commands for Christians to do it today.
> 
> http://christianthinktank.com/qamorite.html


So you know this got me to thinking. God is omniscient right? He knows that in the future no matter who they kill the Israelite's will eventually go astray and follow other Gods and follow the detestable practices of those around them correct? So why exactly did he have all of those babies murdered? And let's run with Farmerbrown's idea that it was the practice of sacrificing infants to Molech. How exactly is ripping them from their mother's wombs, dashing them on rocks or running them through with swords the better thing? Not much moral high ground left is there?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

farmrbrown said:


> Oh, I know.
> I realized that when you said whatever Christ said in the Bible had no bearing on whether Dear was really a christian or not.
> If he claimed it, you believe it.
> 
> I also know *my* claim is irrelevant to Dear.
> What I asked was, *would you give me at least the same credibility as him*?
> Simple question.
> Must be *a difficult answer.*
> :huh:


Not a difficult answer at all.
You're still pretending the comments are somehow related, and that I didn't already answer.

I'm not explaining it a third time just to humor you


----------



## Patchouli

Bearfootfarm said:


> Not by the official definition.
> You're getting a twisted anti-gun version of reality there:
> 
> http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/03/3...-meaningless-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/
> 
> Quote:
> 355?! Why This Number Is *Meaningless* When It Comes To Mass Shootings
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Of the 355 âmass shootingsâ noted by the Post, only 40 of them (about 11 percent) meet the threshold of a âmass murderâ as defined by the FBI, meaning there were at least four fatalities.
> 
> But even these werenât all mass shootings in the conventional sense. As pointed out by the Washington Free Beacon, many of them were instead grisly murder-suicides, gangland massacres, or robberies, eliminating at least 15 more âmass shootingsâ from the list.
> 
> The FBI found *only 160 âactive shooter incidentsâ between 2000 and 2013*, when gang-related shootings were excepted, but those where nobody was shot or killed were included.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't parrot the spin without digging for details
Click to expand...

I actually read all of them thanks. I have been posting about it elsewhere for over a month. Here's a thought maybe it isn't me who is caught up in anti-gun spin. Maybe you are caught up in pro-gun spin. Because I don't really care about the FBI's definition of a mass shooting I care about the reality. And the reality is if someone takes a gun and shoots a whole pile of people it's a mass shooting. 

And the true irony here is all the people who liked your post are the ones who scream the loudest about how wrong it is that gang shootings don't count. Dichotomies, dichotomies.....


----------



## Patchouli

gibbsgirl said:


> My point was that it doesn't have to be a conspiracy. Ultimately, it really doesn't matter.
> 
> I was saying, I see a lot of what the terror alert or reassurances, security procedures or whatever information that the public is told to be less useful when figuring out what the dangers are.
> 
> I find it more useful when I hear what the training drills are because there have been several that are spot on almost exact training for what actually happens. And, the first responders who are practicing them end up being the same first responders who need those drills.
> 
> *So, tsa and all the other metal detectors and whatever does not seem to be any indication of danger at this point IMO. However, if I hear that the first responders are training for a problem somewhere near me, say at a college stadium. That now catches my attention much more. And, I will likely steer clear of it for awhile.*


I understand you now. You are assuming they have information about a potential threat that you don't. That makes sense. I thought you meant something more along the lines of them being involved in a false flag and so they are prepping for it.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

gibbsgirl said:


> My point was that it doesn't have to be a conspiracy. Ultimately, it really doesn't matter.
> 
> I was saying, I see a lot of what the terror alert or reassurances, security procedures or whatever information that the public is told to be less useful when figuring out what the dangers are.
> 
> I find it more useful when I hear what the training drills are because there have been several that are spot on *almost exact training for what actually happens.* And, the first responders who are practicing them end up being the same first responders who need those drills.
> 
> So, tsa and all the other metal detectors and whatever does not seem to be any indication of danger at this point IMO. However, if I hear that the first responders are training for a problem somewhere near me, say at a college stadium. That now catches my attention much more. And, I will likely steer clear of it for awhile.


Of course the training matches the actual events.
Police train for active shooters and respond to active shooters
Firemen train for fires and respond to fires.

No big mystery there

To suggest the training somehow predicts when an event will happen is bordering on Twilight Zone material


----------



## wr

I've had friends who have gone through the fiance process in other countries and I recently read that the US requires at least one in person visit in order to proceed. Is this correct? 

I doubt it would have changed much in this situation but if this is fact, I would think there should be more in person contact than one visit. Perhaps this would close a loophole associated with marriages of convenience for the sake of US citizenship.


----------



## farmrbrown

Patchouli said:


> So you know this got me to thinking. God is omniscient right? He knows that in the future no matter who they kill the Israelite's will eventually go astray and follow other Gods and follow the detestable practices of those around them correct? So why exactly did he have all of those babies murdered? And let's run with Farmerbrown's idea that it was the practice of sacrificing infants to Molech. How exactly is ripping them from their mother's wombs, dashing them on rocks or running them through with swords the better thing? Not much moral high ground left is there?




Good question and a frequent one too.
Job got a taste of that and his answer was, "Who knows the mind of God?"

Before I continue, I will readily admit this applies to me also, without a doubt, so take what I say in that spirit.

Here are two good, possible reasons.
1) To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
So yes, a baby leaving this world, one way or another is not necessarily the worst outcome, in a spiritual sense.
However the WAY it leaves can make a huge difference. 
It may seem to the casual reader that this was more about racism and intermarriage than anything else, but remember, those intermarriages came with the traditions of the spouses and THEIR families. IOW, those ritual sacrifices of burning their children alive to the pagan gods would become the practices of God's people and that was an abomination.

2) The future children and generations of those would lead to chaos and destruction for Israel. 
When I was following up on your question bout those nations I saw just one of many examples that stuck out as one that might be dismissed or overlooked.
Uriah.
He was a Hittite. He was also the husband of Bathsheba and the one King David had murdered in order to hide his adultery.
Not a good example for the leader of Israel to show.

Does this mean we can shift the blame on someone else?
Does this mean God should have known better than create these people?
No, it means God creates the life. What you do with it is your own free will.
Choose wisely.


----------



## farmrbrown

Bearfootfarm said:


> Not a difficult answer at all.
> You're still pretending the comments are somehow related, and that I didn't already answer.
> 
> I'm not explaining it a third time just to humor you


Then I missed it amongst the babble.
Is your answer "No, I don't believe your claim, but I believe the claim of a murderer"?


----------



## Bearfootfarm

farmrbrown said:


> Then I missed it amongst the babble.
> Is your answer "No, I don't believe your claim, but I believe the claim of a murderer"?


Scroll back and find out.
I know you didn't miss the part where I stated I wasn't explaining it again


----------



## Patchouli

farmrbrown said:


> Good question and a frequent one too.
> Job got a taste of that and his answer was, "Who knows the mind of God?"
> 
> Before I continue, I will readily admit this applies to me also, without a doubt, so take what I say in that spirit.
> 
> Here are two good, possible reasons.
> 1) To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
> So yes, a baby leaving this world, one way or another is not necessarily the worst outcome, in a spiritual sense.
> However the WAY it leaves can make a huge difference.
> It may seem to the casual reader that this was more about racism and intermarriage than anything else, but remember, those intermarriages came with the traditions of the spouses and THEIR families. IOW, those ritual sacrifices of burning their children alive to the pagan gods would become the practices of God's people and that was an abomination.
> 
> 2) The future children and generations of those would lead to chaos and destruction for Israel.
> When I was following up on your question bout those nations I saw just one of many examples that stuck out as one that might be dismissed or overlooked.
> Uriah.
> He was a Hittite. He was also the husband of Bathsheba and the one King David had murdered in order to hide his adultery.
> Not a good example for the leader of Israel to show.
> 
> Does this mean we can shift the blame on someone else?
> Does this mean God should have known better than create these people?
> No, it means God creates the life. What you do with it is your own free will.
> Choose wisely.


Kind of sad when the Hittite was the upright one and the King of Israel was not. 

I read all of Poppy's link there and the 2 questions I came away with were this: if God really cares that deeply about babies then why not have the Israelites take them all in. Spare everyone 2 and under. They never had to know they were anything but Israelites right? The only excuse the article could come up with for killing them all was they would be left behind to starve. Uh really? That's the only option?

And second the biggest one that I absolutely do not get is why does God keep wiping people out sporadically? The evils of humanity have been pretty consistent down through the centuries. The pre-flood people were wicked and violent and made God think he never should have created humans. So he picks a few who obviously weren't all that wonderful themselves looking at them post flood and saves them. Again omniscient God can't see forward to today when we are violent and killing each other? I missed the point where we got better?


----------



## Sourdough

So...........does the wife get to have sex with 72 young virgin males in the after life...........:banana::banana::banana:


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Patchouli said:


> I actually read all of them thanks. I have been posting about it elsewhere for over a month. Here's a thought maybe it isn't me who is caught up in anti-gun spin. Maybe you are caught up in pro-gun spin. Because I don't really care about the FBI's definition of a mass shooting I care about the reality. And the reality is if someone takes a gun and shoots a whole pile of people it's a mass shooting.
> 
> And the true irony here is all the people who liked your post are the ones who scream the loudest about *how wrong it is that gang shootings don't count.* Dichotomies, dichotomies.....


You've never heard me say anything to that effect., and I have no control over who "likes" something.

The problem with your source is they count even justified shootings without revealing that information, intentionally trying to make it look worse than it really is

Your claims notwithstanding, overall shooting and crime rates are down, and have had that trend since the 90's even with millions more guns having been sold:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sp...-violence-declining-except-gun-free-zone.html


----------



## Darren

Patchouli said:


> Kind of sad when the Hittite was the upright one and the King of Israel was not.
> 
> I read all of Poppy's link there and the 2 questions I came away with were this: if God really cares that deeply about babies then why not have the Israelites take them all in. Spare everyone 2 and under. They never had to know they were anything but Israelites right? The only excuse the article could come up with for killing them all was they would be left behind to starve. Uh really? That's the only option?
> 
> And second the biggest one that I absolutely do not get is why does God keep wiping people out sporadically? The evils of humanity have been pretty consistent down through the centuries. The pre-flood people were wicked and violent and made God think he never should have created humans. So he picks a few who obviously weren't all that wonderful themselves looking at them post flood and saves them. Again omniscient God can't see forward to today when we are violent and killing each other? I missed the point where we got better?


There's a reason for your confusion. Western religion doesn't have an answer.


----------



## FarmerKat

Raeven said:


> That's hugely disingenuous, and you know it. She came into this country on a 90-day *visitor's visa, same as 25 million other people do every single year*. There is *no* "vetting process" attached to that. As I have said, that is an enormous vulnerability to us, but I don't see a reasonable way to stop it. Do you?
> 
> She later applied for temporary residency status on a K-1 visa after she was married and already living in the country, and we have no idea where ICE was in that process -- or whether she was or would have been approved to stay.
> 
> My respect for your opinions diminishes every moment. Advance your hateful agenda all you want, but at least do it on the actual facts of the situation, not lies.


According to ABC news, she entered US on the fiance visa http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/san-bernardino-shooters-fiance-visa-allowed-us/story?id=35581807

Earlier you described the process your husband had to go through to obtain that visa so I am sure you are well familiar with the process.

ETA: I posted this before I got to the posts where you and others have discussed this.


----------



## poppy

Patchouli said:


> Kind of sad when the Hittite was the upright one and the King of Israel was not.
> 
> *I read all of Poppy's link there and the 2 questions I came away with were this: if God really cares that deeply about babies then why not have the Israelites take them all in. Spare everyone 2 and under. They never had to know they were anything but Israelites right? *The only excuse the article could come up with for killing them all was they would be left behind to starve. Uh really? That's the only option?
> 
> And second the biggest one that I absolutely do not get is why does God keep wiping people out sporadically? The evils of humanity have been pretty consistent down through the centuries. The pre-flood people were wicked and violent and made God think he never should have created humans. So he picks a few who obviously weren't all that wonderful themselves looking at them post flood and saves them. Again omniscient God can't see forward to today when we are violent and killing each other? I missed the point where we got better?


God was very zealous in keeping the bloodline of the Israelis pure from the day He created Adam and Eve. The reason? It's because this was the bloodline through which Christ was to come and He had to be a perfect sacrifice. Satan tried to pollute that bloodline pre flood by sending fallen angels to breed with flesh women. The reason for the flood was to wipe out that polluted bloodline from the Israeli population. Noah was not perfect and the Bible doesn't say he was. It does say he was perfect in his generations. IOW, he still had a perfect pedigree in that no fallen angel blood was in his or his wife's bloodline.


----------



## Patchouli

Bearfootfarm said:


> You've never heard me say anything to that effect., and I have no control over who "likes" something.
> 
> The problem with your source is they count even justified shootings without revealing that information, intentionally trying to make it look worse than it really is
> 
> Your claims notwithstanding, overall shooting and crime rates are down, and have had that trend since the 90's even with millions more guns having been sold:
> 
> http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/sp...-violence-declining-except-gun-free-zone.html


*



And the true irony here is all the people who liked your post are the ones who scream the loudest about how wrong it is that gang shootings don't count. Dichotomies, dichotomies.....

Click to expand...

*That was addressed specifically to the people who liked your post and not you. I agree with you that overall violent crimes are down and I am glad for that. But mass shootings even without gang shootings and robberies are definitely up. Keep in mind my original statement was made strictly to give a reason for why so many government entities would be running drills right now. Even going with your Glenn Beck article's claim that only 40 meet FBI standards for a mass shooting that still works out to almost 1 a week so far this year. So that is ample reason for increased drills is it not? 

I didn't see anything in your article about those numbers containing "justified shootings"? I went back and looked again just to be sure.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

> So that is ample reason for *increased* drills is it not?


There's no evidence of "increased drills"
Fire, EMT, and LEO personnel train on a regular basis. 
I've been seeing it first hand since the early 60's and not much has changed other than the equipment. 

There is only a *perception* of "increased training" because it's *reported* more often than before now that everyone walks around with computers in their pockets

Even tiny volunteer FD's and rescue squads will often meet and train weekly


----------



## Raeven

wr said:


> I've had friends who have gone through the fiance process in other countries and I recently read that the US requires at least one in person visit in order to proceed. Is this correct?
> 
> I doubt it would have changed much in this situation but if this is fact, I would think there should be more in person contact than one visit. Perhaps this would close a loophole associated with marriages of convenience for the sake of US citizenship.


It is true, you must have at least one in-person visit in order to proceed. My husband and I had quite a number under our belts, so that was the least of our concerns... but we had the time and money to accomplish that. Not everyone does.

I'm not sure more visits would really help one way or the other. It's worth considering that we bring on average about 27,000 people into the USA through this visa program a year and have done for years. If we're only looking at the years since 9/11, that's 378,000 foreigners. 

This is the first time I've heard about a terrorist coming into the USA via the K-1 visa route. Do you really believe it is useful to revamp an entire program -- demonstrated to be mostly successful over many years -- because of one admittedly ghastly mistake?

Heads should roll over this, yes. Procedures reviewed to ensure all requirements are being met and rules followed. I don't personally feel the entire program needs to be gutted.

If we examine the easiest way to enter this country as a terrorist, it's still the visitor visa. Again, that's 25 million people coming through this country every year. No way to vet them all, not even in much of a cursory manner. Locking down our borders isn't the answer, and it won't happen no matter how much people wish we could.

*hippygirl* put it very well. There is no way to ensure 100% safety, not from anything. 

Life itself is a calculated risk. I think it's important to keep calm, evaluate our best strategies, put our money where it will work the hardest for us and carry on. Hating every Muslim on the planet is not going to get us where we want to be.

Just to clarify, my comments are made generally, not singling you out, *wr*.


----------



## Raeven

FarmerKat said:


> According to ABC news, she entered US on the fiance visa http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/san-bernardino-shooters-fiance-visa-allowed-us/story?id=35581807
> 
> Earlier you described the process your husband had to go through to obtain that visa so I am sure you are well familiar with the process.
> 
> ETA: I posted this before I got to the posts where you and others have discussed this.


I clearly owe you an apology, too, *FarmerKat*. You have it. 

I had not had a chance to update my information about what visa the woman came in on and should have checked before I responded to *no really*. Not an excuse, just an explanation.


----------



## FarmerKat

Raeven said:


> I clearly owe you an apology, too, *FarmerKat*. You have it.
> 
> I had not had a chance to update my information about what visa the woman came in on and should have checked before I responded to *no really*. Not an excuse, just an explanation.


No apology needed  I just responded as I was reading through the thread before getting through all of the new posts since my last read.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Bearfootfarm said:


> There's no evidence of "increased drills"
> Fire, EMT, and LEO personnel train on a regular basis.
> I've been seeing it first hand since the early 60's and not much has changed other than the equipment.
> 
> There is only a *perception* of "increased training" because it's *reported* more often than before now that everyone walks around with computers in their pockets
> 
> Even tiny volunteer FD's and rescue squads will often meet and train weekly


Yes, reporting is reported more now.

Obviously, first responders train more and differently than in the 1960s.

Across the board, more training and licensing and certifications are required for individuals, businesses and other agencies. That has been on the uptick for over 100 years. Anyone or agency that falls under the umbrella of first responders is part of that too. It's not unique to our nation either. That's been happening across the whole western world 

It is a rather obtuse argument to state that is not the case.

Secondarily, with every passing decade, there are newer contemporary issues that are trained for. Since old issues don't stop being issues, the list gets longer and so we pile on more to deal with.

After it balloons to a level that is unsustainable, new things to manage it are created. Enter the DHS.

In non first responder fields I could cite the expansion of services for autism.

We can debate the necessity of any if the things that are expanding. But, pretending it isn't real or happening is nonsense IMO.


----------



## gibbsgirl

Raevan, fwiw, yes I believe security with our borders should be ramped up.

But, perhaps, what seems confusing to you in mine and other people's saying this is that it has nothing special to do with the visitor or k-1 visas.

I don't say I'm speaking for everyone though, just saying people who agree with me.

I've had a low opinion of our borders security and immigration policies and action for decades. It's nothing new. It has nothing to do with this particular woman.

I don't feel that our actions in recent decades have benefited our citizens. The reasons are many. Yes, this woman being here who did not start life as an American is an example if a problem.

But, I have gobs of other reasons. Our citizens deserve to not have the competition with or expense of foreigners legal or illegal to the extent they exist. We struggle with it in health care resources, education resources, welfare resources. And, it's the overall burden of them taken together.

National security wise, the jihadists are a problem. So, are the central and south american populations and Mexicans who bring diseases, drug cartels, human trafficking, gangs, etc.

They don't all create problems. But, a lot if them do. Enough that IMO we don't need the burden. We have plenty of national problems that just involve our own citizens. And, that should be the priority to fix first.

If we strengthen that, we can then be a place that offers openness to some foreigners. And, IMO that should really only be to direct neighboring nations, refugees from non man-made crises, and for any others who have something to offer america, the base minimum if that standard being the skills and knowledge to assimilate into our culture rapidly, not if they feel like it years, or generations later.

I was not attempting to dispute to authenticity if your experience personally with the immigration system or whether your knowledge about some intricacies was accurate.


----------



## Old Vet

We have millions of people that could be killed. So what? Some of them have family or friends. So What? Bring everybody that wants to come here in and see what might happen. Or let them go somewhere else and be safe. Most of them live in urban cities with strict gun laws.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

Patchouli said:


> I didn't see anything in your article about those numbers containing "justified shootings"? I went back and looked again just to be sure.


From the article:



> Things arenât so simple, though. First of all, the Postâs definition of a âmass shootingâ isnât an official one taken from law enforcement, but is instead taken from activists operating on the website
> 
> Reddit. The activists, who track shootings at the website Shooting Tracker, define a mass shooting as *any shooting* where 4 or more people are injured or killed.


http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015#cite_note-1

I know they counted some that included suicides, and in most of them the shooter is listed as "unknown"


----------



## Tricky Grama

Raeven said:


> So long as you continue to paint with your big broad brush and conflate all Muslims with terrorists, you are advancing a hateful agenda. To hate all Muslims as you do, many hundreds of thousands who live in this country peaceably every day as useful, productive and good American citizens, is xenophobic in the extreme. We need to address the actual threats of terrorism to our safety -- not the ones you perceive in your hysteria of hatred.
> 
> As for your opinion of me, it would be difficult for me to express how little I care about that.


More lies from you. NO ONE has said they HATE all muslims. Please, please stop w/that. Cannot have any kind of discussion when you lie about what others have said. If you want to quote one of us conservatives, do so. But to continue to say we hate all muslims is just a LIE. 

Many have said & many have 'liked' those posts about allowing in women & children. Even tho its been shown many times that women commit these terrorists acts as well. But it would seem to be the humane thing to do.

Stop lying about me as well as others. Stop it now.


----------



## 7thswan

Raeven said:


> So long as you continue to paint with your big broad brush and conflate all Muslims with terrorists, you are advancing a hateful agenda. To hate all Muslims as you do, many hundreds of thousands who live in this country peaceably every day as useful, productive and good American citizens, is xenophobic in the extreme. We need to address the actual threats of terrorism to our safety -- not the ones you perceive in your hysteria of hatred.
> 
> As for your opinion of me, it would be difficult for me to express how little I care about that.


If it makes you feel any better-it's the "RELIGION" that is sick, . There is no way to know when a muslim is going to "radicalize".


----------



## Cornhusker

Anybody notice how this went from "Act of terror" to "Mass Shooting"?
I guess that makes it easier to blame the NRA, guns and America and let radical islam off the hook?


----------



## no really

Cornhusker said:


> Anybody notice how this went from "Act of terror" to "Mass Shooting"?
> I guess that makes it easier to blame the NRA, guns and America and let radical islam off the hook?



Just waiting for the work place violence bull.


----------



## arabian knight

Tricky Grama said:


> *More lies from you. NO ONE has said they HATE all muslims. Please, please stop w/that.* Cannot have any kind of discussion when you lie about what others have said. If you want to quote one of us conservatives, do so. But to continue to say we hate all muslims is just a LIE.
> 
> Many have said & many have 'liked' those posts about allowing in women & children. Even tho its been shown many times that women commit these terrorists acts as well. But it would seem to be the humane thing to do.
> 
> Stop lying about me as well as others. Stop it now.


Of course not. In fact my Muslim Dr. literally saved my life, I have also said that on here many times in passed. Course you know that. But these that just love to paint with a broad brush they conveniently forget such things I guess.


----------



## 7thswan

arabian knight said:


> Of course not. In fact my Muslim Dr. literally said my life, I have also said that on here many times in passed. Course you know that. But these that just love to paint with a broad brush they conveniently forget such things I guess.


I think there are many muslims that don't even want to be muslims and get as far away from the mess as they can. BUT they can't leave the mess or they will be hunted down and killed by their OWN that are a bit more devoted.


----------



## arabian knight

7thswan said:


> I think there are many muslims that don't even want to be muslims and get as far away from the mess as they can. BUT they can't leave the mess or they will be hunted down and killed by their OWN that are a bit more devoted.


Darn auto spell check that should have been Saved my life, not said. Oh my.


----------



## Bearfootfarm

arabian knight said:


> Darn auto spell check that should have been Saved my life, not said. Oh my.


 I doubt anyone noticed


----------



## Lisa in WA

Bearfootfarm said:


> I doubt anyone noticed


 :happy2:


----------



## Old Vet

I wish they were vetted like I was to get mu security clearance. They went as far back as possible and interview as many as possible. They went back to the DR that delivered me and my first grade teacher and every teacher since. As far as being vetted but of course all they do now is Google the name and if you give the wrong name so what.


----------



## oneraddad

Sara Palin was vetted


----------



## Bearfootfarm

arabian knight said:


> Of course not. In fact *my Muslim Dr*. literally saved my life, I have also said that on here many times in passed. Course you know that. But these that just love to paint with a broad brush they conveniently forget such things I guess.


Have you had any religious discussions with your Dr?

Did he tell you he's Muslim?

Did you ask, or are you assuming because he's not Caucasian?

What is his last name?

Was he your Dr during the years you were banned from here?


----------



## oneraddad

Bearfootfarm said:


> Have you had any religious discussions with your Dr?
> 
> Did he tell you he's Muslim?
> 
> Did you ask, or are you assuming because he's not Caucasian?
> 
> What is his last name?
> 
> Was he your Dr during the years you were banned from here?



The Arabian Knight was banned from here at one time ?

I thought if you we're once banned but got a pass to returned you were labeled a liberal ?


----------



## gibbsgirl

Father of shooter was interviewed and spoke about his knowledge of his sons beliefs.

Sounds fairly clear, he was not simply a nation of peace Muslim.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...hooter-agreed-isil-obssessed-israel/76890108/


----------



## Bearfootfarm

oneraddad said:


> The Arabian Knight was banned from here at one time ?
> 
> I thought if you we're once banned but got a pass to returned you were labeled a liberal ?


He told us he was "banned for several years" from the entire site.

I'm just curious how one knows the religion of their Dr unless they have discussed it with them, and I can't picture how that would have gone

I've been to a few Drs in my life, and I don't recall the topic of religion ever coming up in any conversations.


----------



## farmrbrown

My wife knows the religion and denomination of her last few doctors. It comes up casually at first then gets a little more in depth as time goes on.
It may start as something like, "I'll have to pray about that" or "If this doesn't work, I'll have the church anoint and pray over me". Or it may stem from a dietary discussion.
If you know any hebrew, chances are you can find out pretty quick if your doc is jewish, lol................
There are still some amazed neurosurgeons down in FL who wrote her off for dead 20 years ago. 
She told them before she went into a type of coma from meningitis, the Yeshua had appeared at her bed and assured her it wasn't her time yet.

Matter of fact, mine, I call the Great Physician, has a Son who was a carpenter.


----------



## 7thswan

oneraddad said:


> Sara Palin was vetted


and Obama wasen't.


----------



## Tricky Grama

arabian knight said:


> Of course not. In fact my Muslim Dr. literally saved my life, I have also said that on here many times in passed. Course you know that. But these that just love to paint with a broad brush they conveniently forget such things I guess.


Post of the day award.

NP at my doc's office is a delightful muslim woman. So are our 2 sets of neighbors. 
One family, tho, a little worrisome. He had a deli that wasnt' doing too well so he burned it down. So as not to be suspicious, he burned the biz next to it too...


----------



## newfieannie

they don't have to be Muslim to do that though. I don't know how many I've heard of throughout the years around here that have done that and they definitely weren't muslim. far from it. just sayin! ~Georgia


----------

