# Pole building post protection



## markcrain (Oct 21, 2010)

I have 5 acres in N.E. TN. The property is in a hollow and the ground is on the wet side. I'm concerned about the posts rotting before I die so I want to protect them. I've seen post protectors that are plastic sleeves placed over the post bottom, but if water got in there would be no way for it to get out. Some of them recommend drilling drain holes but that would defeat the purpose. I thought it might be better and cheaper to use the paint on bed liner available. I could then use lag bolts to help hold down and paint right over them. Any thoughts on this idea?


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Creosote. We have a pole barn that's been up for 50 years with posts soaked in creosote, and its as strong now as then.


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## markcrain (Oct 21, 2010)

I don't think creosote is available any longer.


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## Bentley (Jul 10, 2008)

I have a pole building with the post protectors you reference. The exterior of my building is metal, and the entire building (30x40) was built in two days, so there was no opportunity for rainwater to get inside the protectors, which cover the posts three feet above the concrete. Unless you are using a lot of water inside the building, there will be no chance of moisture getting inside the protectors. 

I believe the post protectors are a great idea.

Good luck with your project.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

> I don't think creosote is available any longer.


 Drat I think you're right! Ok so now I have to scour old hardware stores for left overs.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

I'm as cheap as they come, and use the lumber off my sawmill for everything on the place EXCEPT what has to go in the ground. For that, go ahead and buy treated posts.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Ross said:


> Drat I think you're right! Ok so now I have to scour old hardware stores for left overs.


There's a treatment plant less than an hour away from me that buys sawn railroad ties and then pressure treats them with creosote. Just about any day of the week at the truck stop you can see and smell flatbed loads of creosoted ties.

What has happened is several of the materials previously available to consumers through retail outlets are now only available for specific uses other than residential. One example is CCA treated lumber. If you know where to go , or who to call, you can still buy it by the truckload. Same with creosoted material. I had some oak cribbing treated about ten years ago. 

There's an association of wood preservers website that you may be able to use to find a treatment plant near you. I've never had a problem calling the treatment plant direct.

Here's one list of wood treaters. I suspect that are many more that don't belong to the association. As you can see CCA and creosote is still being used.

http://www.awpa.com/suppliers/treatedwood.asp


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

There are 2 types of treated lumber, green ground contact and brown. Use the green, usually, 4"x6", 6"x6" and 6"x8" for pole buildings. Dig a larger hole, place concrete in the bottom to set the pole on and fill with crushed rock well tamped. This lets the rock dry out during dry spells. Do not put concrete at ground level, stays wet and rots....James


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## markcrain (Oct 21, 2010)

jwal10 said:


> There are 2 types of treated lumber, green ground contact and brown. Use the green, usually, 4"x6", 6"x6" and 6"x8" for pole buildings. Dig a larger hole, place concrete in the bottom to set the pole on and fill with crushed rock well tamped. This lets the rock dry out during dry spells. Do not put concrete at ground level, stays wet and rots....James


The problem is its in a wet area so with gravel even it will see a lot of moisture. Thats why I was considering that bed liner to protect it. Not sure if its a good idea or not.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

markcrain said:


> The problem is its in a wet area so with gravel even it will see a lot of moisture. Thats why I was considering that bed liner to protect it. Not sure if its a good idea or not.


The latest ground contact treated lumber has not been in use that long. No one can say how long it will last. That's why I suggest you talk to a locally owned lumber yard near you and ask which wood treating company they buy treated lumber from. Call that company and find out which treatments they offer. 

I've made the following suggestion many times. Ask them if they offer 2.4 lb/cf CCA treatment. They may call that marine grade. It is designed for constant salt water immersion. It will still be there fifty years or longer into the future.

If you ask someone at the local lumber yard or a big box store if CCA is still available, they'll swear up and down it's been outlawed by the EPA. That is absolutely wrong.


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## markcrain (Oct 21, 2010)

No thoughts on using a paint on bed liner to coat over the bottom of a treated post?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

The idea behind pressure treating is to get the chemical throughout the wood, not just on the surface. Wood degrades from the outside in unless there's a defect that allows water and fungal spores to get inside. Everything will rot eventually. That's why after probably decades of use, railroads have to replace ties.

I want enough chemical in the wood so that the fungus that will rot the wood is subject to a hostile environment. Fungus spores are everywhere. All they have to do is get to the wood. If you were able to completely seal the wood, then fungus wouldn't be able to get to it.

Generally wood rots were it is exposed to alternating periods of wetting and drying. Like at the ground surface for fence posts. You've probably seen or read about people who harvest logs that have been underwater for a long time. They've been preserved. Of course in salt water, the wood gets eaten. With rainwater or groundwater, the environment isn't as destructive.

After all that, if you can keep water away from your post, you should be ok. If it's subject to wetting and drying, it will eventually rot. It may take a hundred years or longer with some treatments and some species, but it will rot.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

What about scorching the part that goes underground. That should last for at least 100 years.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Well help me because I am doing the BQ post only because an old timer told me it works and he had proof enough for me in the ground. But.............I laugh at myself every time I roast a pole cause I do not for the life of me understand how it works or why it works. Can you help this dumb blonde understand the scorching deal?


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

The Forestry Service says it's a waste of time. I suspect the instances of charred posts lasting a long time are due to the nature of the wood itself; heart wood, species, etc. In other words, if it hadn't been charred it would have still lasted a long time. The charring and the long life are not related. It's coincidence only.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fpltn/fpltn-108.pdf


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

You could always pour concrete piers and set the poles on top


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

kasilofhome said:


> Well help me because I am doing the BQ post only because an old timer told me it works and he had proof enough for me in the ground. But.............I laugh at myself every time I roast a pole cause I do not for the life of me understand how it works or why it works. Can you help this dumb blonde understand the scorching deal?


In my archeology class the professor told us that charring preserves the wood for centuries. The artifacts that have been discovered prove it.

I also remember seeing a birch stump that had been charred decades earlier. It was still solid even after being buried in moist ground. It would have been completely decomposed had it not been charred.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Thanks Fishead --something must change the wood in the heating --I am a science geek at heart... Just because it does work I do it....I wonder if the charring removes elements needed to promote decompotion.


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## swollen tongue (Mar 9, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You could always pour concrete piers and set the poles on top


 this is the best solution if you have water concerns


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## Qhorseman (Jul 9, 2010)

My house sits on CCA treated 5X5's rated ground contact. We can still get CCA wood around here. Mine are sitting on a concrete footing 4' deep with 2 bags of pre-mix around the bottom then back filled and well tamped. They have been in the ground for 8 years with no visible signs of deterioration yet. It is my understanding the Forest Products Labratory has some "test posts" that have been in the ground for 75 years with no loss of strength yet. Good Luck on your project.


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## KP55 (Jan 30, 2015)

Here's a video explaining how decay occurs and how the post protectors work.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbKYmE2nkKM[/ame]


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## michael ark (Dec 11, 2013)

Around here the old timers used red cedar and tared the bottom of the post that was in the ground.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Best bet, imho, if you're wanting to avoid buying expensive pressure treated posts, is to use 'post oak' logs if you can find them. When cured, hard as steel, and will last a lifetime, in the ground. My great uncle built a post oak pole barn, down here in the 'river bottoms', subject to flooding when the river gets out, back in the 30's.... In the 90's, I salvaged 16' 3x12's for a floor in a barn here... had to drill holes for nails... that 'hard'!

Wanted to remove the metal siding... alas, the nails holding the tin on, were unremoveable... would have had to use a sawzall or a grinder, to cut the nail heads off.... impossible to remove the nails from the post oak logs sunk in the ground.

Can't find post oak? Consider sinking 6x6 pressure treated 'footers' into the ground, resting around a foot up out of the ground, and build up on top of them.... lay sills on top, then it's all standard construction....


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

markcrain said:


> I don't think creosote is available any longer.


Yes you can still get creosote logs. I just got some for a fence built for my boss. Here in Texas I use Leo Hicks Lumber co. They do it themselves there. they ship a long way but not sure if they ship up your way.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Old growth Cypress post will last forever as will the oak ones mentioned They do call it post oak for a good reason. 

I once worked on a house in south east Texas that was the oldest surviving home in the county. The spun glass windows in it were floor to ceiling and only 8" wide. I was told it was to shoot out of while keeping any intruders over 8" wide from getting in and still letting in the cool air. It was a cool house for a wood junkie like me. Anyway...

It was sitting on cypress stumps. No rot after 160 years except for the bark was slaked off. They were put in the ground a certain amount. Not sure how much but we have no frost line here sop probably not too much. And then cut off with a crosscut with a water level to grade. I think they will last another 160 from the looks of them.


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## gimpyrancher (Jun 6, 2010)

If you dig a hole twice the diameter of the post, put concrete in the bottom (Couple inches deep) then completely surround the post with concrete and building up a 2-3" sloped concrete collar (sloping down from the post to the soil level) that directs shed water away from the post, isn't this enough to protect the posts? :facepalm:


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## 42flathead (May 6, 2015)

I use a posthole digger to bore a hole. Then I build a 18 x 18 square form out of 2x4's. I then position the form with the post hole in the center. Some rebar in the hole and fill with concrete to the top of the form. I then place a bolt in the wet concrete to use for mounting the post bracket.


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## Osteve (Apr 13, 2012)

How old are you?


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## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

Many modern pole buildings use a section of precast concrete post poured into the ground, then above grade the wood post is bolted to such. No chance or rot this way.

Also, modern treated wood is much better quality than stuff being used several decades ago. Many pole barns built in 60's and 70's had posts rot off right at ground level. It's not near as common with today's materials.


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## 42flathead (May 6, 2015)

It is a pto driven 3pt post hole digger.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I've been thinking about this a lot lately because I'm thinking that I will put my next house on posts possibly made out of concrete poured inside of thin wall pvc pipe or cardboard tubes set on a concrete pad. They would never rot.


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## RonM (Jan 6, 2008)

Morton Buildings uses a technique that puts 2x6's in the ground that are treated and then makes laminates with untreated 2x6's above grade, they claim it is much cheaper than treated lumber all the way up when you don't really need it above ground...


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

I'm looking at a pole building later this year. With termite damage in a close by house, I'll go with the 2.5 lb/cu ft. CCA. Termites don't survive on arsenic no matter how far up they crawl. They have gone 6' up in the house in one area. Fungi don't grow on wood with arsenic either.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I made a bunch of concrete bases for a pole barn. Made them 6 x 6 and 5 feet tall. Welded 6 x 12 x 1/8 plates to form a H shape. Plates on opposite sides of the concrete and a 6x6 plate across the middle of the plates to form the separation between wood and concrete. I welded two 1/2 inch rebar to run through the concrete. Also welded 1/2 rebar piece connecting the lower, in concrete, part of the plates. Had 1/2 inch holes punched in the plates to allow the plates to be screwed into the posts.

I made a form that allowed me to pour 8 at a time. To give me a nailing surface, as part of the post would be out of the ground, I imbedded 1x 1 1/2" strips of plastic deck boards into one side. Could screw into that and not worry about rot. 

Didn't work. The 10 inch auger didn't give me enough room for error. Once you drill in clay, you don't move over 2 inches and re-do. Couldn't get the holes at the exact same depth. I changed plans and went with a slab of concrete and 12 rows of concrete blocks. 

In sand it might have worked. Here is what the form looked like.


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## Nimrod (Jun 8, 2010)

Mike Oehler used "Penta" to soak the parts of the posts that were buried in the ground. Then it was determined that Penta (PCPs and dioxin) can cause cancer so they were banned. Now he suggests that you char the part of the posts that will be buried and encase the end of each pole in 5 garbage bags. For those of us that live where the frost line is more than 3 feet deep, we will have to come up with some other way to have the plastic wrap come up several inches above ground level.

He also mentions that the creosote that collects in the chimney of your wood stove is identical, chemically, with the commercial stuff. You could make your own creosote dip by mixing the stuff you get when you clean your chimney with kerosene but he has never tried it.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

haypoint said:


> I made a bunch of concrete bases for a pole barn. Made them 6 x 6 and 5 feet tall. Welded 6 x 12 x 1/8 plates to form a H shape. Plates on opposite sides of the concrete and a 6x6 plate across the middle of the plates to form the separation between wood and concrete. I welded two 1/2 inch rebar to run through the concrete. Also welded 1/2 rebar piece connecting the lower, in concrete, part of the plates. Had 1/2 inch holes punched in the plates to allow the plates to be screwed into the posts.
> 
> I made a form that allowed me to pour 8 at a time. To give me a nailing surface, as part of the post would be out of the ground, I imbedded 1x 1 1/2" strips of plastic deck boards into one side. Could screw into that and not worry about rot.
> 
> ...


Were you going to put pads under your posts?


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## just_sawing (Jan 15, 2006)

Black Locust will last very long
Bodock will also last
Eastern Red Cedar will last but the white will rot
Red Oak soaked in burnt Motor oil will last 20 years
Burning the bottom will stop water intrusion but the water in the log will still rot. 
Walnut (non Sap Wood) is great


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## 1948CaseVAI (May 12, 2014)

markcrain said:


> I don't think creosote is available any longer.



You can still get creosote from India, but it may be more trouble than it is worth to you, although there is a bonus joy in defeating the epa.

You can back fill with foam, like the utility companies are doing now for their largest poles, and the foam is supposed to keep water from getting to your posts.


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