# What would happen if 99% of America...



## Loquisimo (Nov 14, 2009)

suddenly decided they just HAD to flee to the country to save their lives? That there was no food available in the cities and towns, and that they needed food to live? Recently the blog Survival Mom had a posting on what rules people would have to follow if they were to live peacefully in the country with the current inhabitants. I personally think that that's ridiculous, that if all those hundreds of millions of city/town folk want your preps, better pray because nothing besides divine intervention will stop them. 

I suspect that somewhere there's a log of every prep stash in America, and that the government will force you to turn over your preps "for the greater good", or get some inner city thugs to do it for them. You want to shoot back, fine, you and your family are a mere speedbump when EVERYBODY wants your stuff. So they loot every single prep stash in the nation, then turn on each other. 

I'd really like to know who the 10% of the population IS that the gov expects to still be around one year after an EMP. If they're the most violent and crazy among us, would any of us really want to live in such a world? Look at Afghanistan in the early 1990s, would you really want to live in a situation like that, to be followed by the leader of the craziest crazies gaining power, to be followed by something like Mugabe's reign of terror in Zimbabwe where the farmers are overrun and killed and their land "appropriated" to the crazy guy's goons? 

Doomer porn is fun, but don't confuse it with reality. Either you get a situation like Argentina, or you get a situation like the Taliban. There are simply too many of them and not enough of us, in the final analysis. Don't fool yourself-if they really truly want your stuff, THEY WILL GET IT. Or they will look around and raid the guy who's not starving. The Rawles scenario where the little fortress of people repels jillions of invaders sounds heroic, but it can't happen. Either you run out of ammo, or the people turn on each other, or just plain get overrun. Prepping is fine, but go into it with eyes open. If everybody is starving and you're not, who will they go see about a "contribution"?


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

First of all, I don't think people are going to go to the country en masse. Think of all the city folk who "can't stand bugs" or "don't like nature". I think some people will try, but the majority will fail and go back to what they are familiar with. The government may try to get our preps, but many of us don't buy the freeze dried foods that the survival sites sell. They may have a record of who they sold to, but if you have stocked up for a year at your local stores, how would anyone know that you have it?


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## Jerngen (May 22, 2006)

I think you need to lighten up a bit. Why do you consistently do the most gloomiest posts I've seen on here? 
I do not agree with your synopsis at all and that is fine. If it comes to a total societal meltdown scenario, you feel free to throw your hands up and surrender. 
We'll continue fighting and surviving any which way we can. 

One of the main tactics of surviving by the way is blending in and not standing out. They can't go after what they don't know is there. 

We chose to live in an isolated pocket of the country several hundred miles from the nearest big city. You paint the doom scenarios with a broad brush. What we'll face will be far different (and likely easier) then what you'll face living where you do (if my memory serves correctly as to your location).

Edit: I forgot to address your first point. Where I live there will always be food available short of a few stray nuclear bombs landing in our remote area. Study up on foraging for wild foods, you will be amazed at what's out there that is actually quite edible and even medicinal.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

I agree with Astrid that the government doesn't know about most people with preps because they stock up gradually. But like you said, when people are starving, they'll look around for the people who aren't and maybe connect the dots that these people have food. That's why it's really important to try to live under the radar, both now and in any future societal crises. That applies to more than just food. The sound of a generator running might attract hordes of people suffering from electricity withdrawal. Lights in the dark could become like a beacon to everyone around.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

If 99% of the people in the U.S. went to the country, the answer is pretty obvious - go to the city. Raid the stores there.


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

ryanthomas said:


> I agree with Astrid that the government doesn't know about most people with preps because they *stock up gradually. But like you said, when people are starving, they'll look around *for the people who aren't and maybe connect the dots that these people have food. That's why it's really important to try to live under the radar, both now and in any future societal crises. That applies to more than just food. The sound of a generator running might attract hordes of people suffering from electricity withdrawal. Lights in the dark could become like a beacon to everyone around.


Okay, tinfoil time here...when you shop, do you have a "customer loyality" card to get the discounts? Do you pay with a credit card? Just sayin', because I do, If someone wants to find out what your buying, it really wouldn't be that hard. Heck, I know most the folks at the local grocery store. And they tell me what's coming up, as they do the same thing; stock up, especially on loss leaders and long shelf life stuff.
You really can't be off the radar, no matter how hard you try, IMO.
Matt


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## unregistered65598 (Oct 4, 2010)

Loquisimo said:


> suddenly decided they just HAD to flee to the country to save their lives? That there was no food available in the cities and towns, and that they needed food to live? Recently the blog Survival Mom had a posting on what rules people would have to follow if they were to live peacefully in the country with the current inhabitants. I personally think that that's ridiculous, that if all those hundreds of millions of city/town folk want your preps, better pray because nothing besides divine intervention will stop them.
> 
> I suspect that somewhere there's a log of every prep stash in America, and that the government will force you to turn over your preps "for the greater good", or get some inner city thugs to do it for them. You want to shoot back, fine, you and your family are a mere speedbump when EVERYBODY wants your stuff. So they loot every single prep stash in the nation, then turn on each other.
> 
> ...


I will have to agree with you on one thing for sure " _*I suspect that somewhere there's a log of every prep stash in America, and that the government will force you to turn over your preps "for the greater good", or get some inner city thugs to do it for them. You want to shoot back, fine, you and your family are a mere speedbump when EVERYBODY wants your stuff. So they loot every single prep stash in the nation, then turn on each other.*_ " No matter how we prep, WE CAN NOT defend our selves against the government. It just won't happen. So all I can say is if it gets to that point I sure hope I can find a safe place to hide.


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

I don't know, I think that if you're way out in the boonies, they really won't be too interested in coming for your family stash. They will be more interested in warehouses and places that might have a larger amount of food. If you live in town or in a higher population area, I think you are more apt to be noticed if you are not starving. 
As for myself, my place is VERY remote. We live in SE Alaska off the road system. I don't see anyone spending the money, gas, time etc.. to get my stash.


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## Ruby (May 10, 2002)

We get 90% of our preps from a couple of discount stores that do not use the loyalty cards. Their cash register don't even print what you bought. It's the old fashioned kind that puts out a reciept that just looks like a calcaulator reciept. They are scratch and dent type stores that also sell close out goods.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Jerngen said:


> *I think you need to lighten up a bit*. Why do you consistently do the most gloomiest posts I've seen on here?
> I do not agree with your synopsis at all and that is fine. If it comes to a total societal meltdown scenario, you feel free to throw your hands up and surrender.
> We'll continue fighting and surviving any which way we can.
> 
> ...


Um, this is what this forum is for. Discussing how to prepare for surviving. It's good to think of different scenarios in order to figure out how you would handle it. Sort of like fire drills.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Roadking said:


> Okay, tinfoil time here...when you shop, do you have a "customer loyality" card to get the discounts? Do you pay with a credit card? Just sayin', because I do, If someone wants to find out what your buying, it really wouldn't be that hard. Heck, I know most the folks at the local grocery store. And they tell me what's coming up, as they do the same thing; stock up, especially on loss leaders and long shelf life stuff.
> You really can't be off the radar, no matter how hard you try, IMO.
> Matt


The solution to that would be to grow your own food, at least as much as you can. The things you stock up on you could do through places like Sams Clubs, where it's not unusual for people to buy in bulk.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

You know what you good citizens need?

A little more of the criminal mindset.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

I very much doubt the government has a list of everyone who has preps. They just aren't that competent. If it comes down to it, it wouldn't surprise me if they went to the freeze-dried food companies and took their records, though. As far as the loyalty cards, I do have one but it isn't linked to my name at all. My purpose in that is just general privacy, not hiding anything from the government. I read years ago that there was nothing preventing the grocery corporations from selling the data on their customers to health insurance companies so they could raise rates on people who buy too much junk food. I eat healthy and I don't believe in health insurance, but that just seemed like too much of an invasion, so I keep it anonymous. But it certainly is possible to live under the radar. At least a reasonable level of under the radar.


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## Oldcountryboy (Feb 23, 2008)

The city people could very well end up in the laps of us country folks. If the polar ice caps keep melting away we could see great coastal floodings on both east and west coast of the United States, the gulf coast and up the Missippie river basin. Apparently its happened before and it could happen again. Gonna get very crowded in the inlands.


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

DH and I have discussed this. We live outside of town but right on a main highway. He says stay and defend the house, I say head for the timber and caves(Missouri is the Cave State ya know).


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

Loquisimo said:


> suddenly decided they just HAD to flee to the country to save their lives?


I'd say I suddenly got more food  I hear zombies taste good with BBQ sauce


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## JuliaAnn (Dec 7, 2004)

If 99% started a mass exodus (to where?) simply put, the deaths would likely number in the tens or hundreds of thousands. It would never happen.


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## Andy Nonymous (Aug 20, 2005)

Loquisimo said:


> ... if all those hundreds of millions of city/town folk want your preps, better pray because nothing besides divine intervention will stop them.


 Ditto with any determined group of overwhelming numbers, be they country hicks, or soldiers of fortune.



> I'd really like to know who the 10% of the population IS that the gov expects to still be around one year after an EMP.


 Besides themselves? 

Actually, I'd prefer to not have to find out, but if/when something like that happens (whether by Coronal Mass Ejection, or some other cause), there is likely to be as much divine protection (or luck) involved as anything else you or I could prep with and for.


> would you really want to live in a situation like that, to be followed by the leader of the craziest crazies gaining power, to be followed by something like Mugabe's reign of terror in Zimbabwe where the farmers are overrun and killed and their land "appropriated" to the crazy guy's goons? ...
> 
> Doomer porn is fun, but don't confuse it with reality. Either you get a situation like Argentina, or you get a situation like the Taliban...


 Or you get a set of situations outside of your imagining, whether better, or worse. 

Part of "being prepared", is being able to think and improvise as the unexpected unfolds, even if what happens is unexpectedly "normal". :hobbyhors


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## Txsteader (Aug 22, 2005)

Hundreds of millions of people would go nowhere, real fast. Heck, one million people can create a traffic jam that takes 3 days to clear.

As for being on the radar, two pieces of advice: prep gradually and always pay with cash.

Learn how to hide in plain sight.


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

Txsteader said:


> *Hundreds of millions of people would go nowhere, real fast. Heck, one million people can create a traffic jam that takes 3 days to clear.*
> 
> As for being on the radar, two pieces of advice: prep gradually and always pay with cash.
> 
> Learn how to hide in plain sight.


 so true, so true....Even a couple of thousand will snarl things to where it doesn't move. Ever been around a city when there's a big football game? Next level is the amount of traffic you see when they try to evacuate Florida or Galveston areas in preparation for a hurricane. Traffic doesn't move. For days.(I agree with the rest of your post, too, btw)


As to those lists you think the government has of all the preps...in your scenario, or any for that matter, where there is a mass exodus in a hurry...those lists, even if they exist, won't matter. They're all on a computer somewhere. In any doomsday scenario there is a complete disruption of communications, electricity, internet, etc. POOF. so much for that list, eh? 
If there's an attack on the Americas, it will probably be the cities, yes. But hardly all of them at the same time. You also don't allow for the people who think it won't happen to them, so they don't do anything, and for the people who think the government will help them. (how well did THAT work out for New Orleans, eh?...they KNEW a massive hurricane was coming, they'd been warned. tens of thousands did NOTHING until it was too late)

Some people are just drawn to the doom and gloom and revel in it. It's up to each individual to decide if they want to wallow in _"oh me, oh me...we're doomed if <whatever>"</whatever>_ or if they want to prep for what they can, and get on with the joy of living life. I choose the later.


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## gunseller (Feb 20, 2010)

Every key you ever presed on a keyboard on the net is still somewhere. Every board you regestered on has the info and you think the government will not get the info, if they do not already have it, if they want it. The gov knows who we are and where to find us if they want us. The question is do they need or want to take the trouble to mess with us. 
Back to the orginal question. Millions would die in the first week from nature. Millions more would die trying to loot. Would they get preppers and other people's food and stuff? Yes but there would be more armed preppers and other people that would kill more. If this goes on long enough we would get to the 10%. The looters and the preppers would reach peace and work together to make a living without killing. 
Steve


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## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

Ernie said:


> You know what you good citizens need?
> 
> A little more of the criminal mindset.


Are you offering to play "devil's advocate"? I agree this could easily get one sided/one view with a bit of rose colored glasses.....have 2 or 3 of us play devil's advocate (even if that's not our opinion of reality) could be very useful/enlightening. I'm not of the deep doom and gloom outlook....but I could play one on TV.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Wisconsin Ann said:


> It's up to each individual to decide if they want to wallow in _"oh me, oh me...we're doomed if <whatever>"</whatever>_ or if they want to prep for what they can, and get on with the joy of living life. I choose the later.


Well said!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> What would happen if 99% of America...
> suddenly decided they just HAD to flee to the country to save their lives? That there was no food available in the cities and towns, and that they needed food to live?


Most of them would die within 2 weeks, and the majority would die before they ever considered leaving the cities


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## Pink_Carnation (Apr 21, 2006)

For starters what are all the country folk doing in the city if 99% leave...94% of the ones that live in the country would have to be there too. 82% of the US lives in the city and suburbs not 99%.

Some areas would be overrun by sheer numbers, some would die because the wrong group found them, some would try to help them, some would kill any who approach and some would survive. Being prepared won't guarantee survival it will just improve the odds. A good location would improve your chances as well.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)




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## Usingmyrights (Jan 10, 2011)

There's no way for the government to know who all is prepped and to what extent. Unless you're rich enough to buy in extreme bulk they aren't going to notice a little here and there. Especially if you pay in cash where you can. My method has been to watch the sales adds and stocking up on whats on sale for stuff that will store well and that I'd use. Unfortunately I missed a good sale on roastbeef hash recently, but its definately something thats going to be going into the preps.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

First of all, there is no possible way to prepare for every thing that could happen. If it gets _that_ bad, death probably will be more welcomed than survival anyway.

All we can do is what we can do. Even after years of prepping and if everything we have is all gone (either through zombies, government, nuclear attack, virus, or plague) then it is what it is. There's no possible way to know exactly (or even theorize) what we would do. It's too extreme. I'm willing to bet none of us would even react like we think we would anyway. If the time comes, it's anyone's guess because none of us have ever been in such a situation anyway. We'll either end up stronger than we think, or fold faster than we ever thought we would. We just don't know.

And this is from someone who plans for everything with Plan A, B, C, _and_ D! Sometimes you just have depend on a higher power to show you the way or take you on to the hereafter. It isn't being not prepared, it's the only way you can find peace of mind if things ever do get worst than we could ever have imagined. If it comes to that, God's going to have to lead the way because there will always be some things we could never prepare for on our own.


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## mommathea (May 27, 2009)

Roadking said:


> Okay, tinfoil time here...when you shop, do you have a "customer loyality" card to get the discounts? Do you pay with a credit card? Just sayin', because I do, If someone wants to find out what your buying, it really wouldn't be that hard. Heck, I know most the folks at the local grocery store. And they tell me what's coming up, as they do the same thing; stock up, especially on loss leaders and long shelf life stuff.
> You really can't be off the radar, no matter how hard you try, IMO.
> Matt


My husband doesn't understand why I won't use the shopper loyalty cards. You get discount on your gas when you buy so much in groceries. No thanks. I'd rather spend 1c more on gas then let big brother know exactly what I'm buying. Cash only when buying preps.


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## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

All I will say is they better not come to my place if they know what's good for them.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I do believe people from cities will come to the country for food. Not all will come but it won't take that many to cause a bunch of trouble. I can see gangs sending people to forage for food. If they have no food in the city - they will come. Best bet is to not live near a large city or even a medium-sized one. Dealing with immediate neighbors in a smaller rural area will be hard enough.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

This is one area where the disconnect between people and their food supply is a good thing. In the city, people think food comes from a grocery store. Maybe we can hope they won't make the connection to where it comes from before it gets to the store.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Roadking said:


> Okay, tinfoil time here...when you shop, do you have a "customer loyality" card to get the discounts?


Sure do. 

All in the name of John E. Cash, who lives at 123 Main St, (my town) TN. And his phone number is 555-1234......and he seems to have a preference for using folding money. 

And when the checkout gal says brightly "You saved xx$ today with your card", I usually reply "honey....I know they tell you to say that, but we both know they simply mark the stuff up on the shelves so as to give a phony discount here at the register"


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## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

If the government agencies who track such things are reading this, could you please send me an itemized list of what I currently have? I need to go on a stock-up run and am a bit vague about how much of some things I've used.

Seriously, how can they track every jar of green beans or venison I have canned? Every bucket of dried beans I've got squirreled away? The jars came from my grandparents' house when they passed away. The flats and rings were bought at a yard sale with cash. And I'm not dumb enough to have it all stored in one place, one location.

I think those closest to the cities will have to deal with the brunt of this, but I also think that very few city dwellers will have the knowledge and gumption to make it on foot out to where I live. Once here, they would be facing a fairly hostile territory, dotted with people who know it well and know how to protect what is theirs. I can't imagine that would be a very appealing prospect to most urbanites.


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## Pink_Carnation (Apr 21, 2006)

With the loyalty cards they still don't know how much you eat of the food over time compared with what you buy. I've had comments on how much pasta I was buying at a time, but that stuff is long gone. Even buying close to double what you eat doesn't mean that you have anything since some people do that to give food to food banks as well.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I've worked on the database systems that large grocery store chains use to track customers. They aren't particularly doing it maliciously, but they do so in order to determine pricing trends, etc.

For example, there is a subscription service that grocers subscribe to that tracks all purchases and inventory. The data mining company then returns to them suggested pricing for specific items at specific times of year. Most of it is pretty common sense ... raise packs of hot dogs by $0.30 each for the two weeks preceeding the Fourth of July, or raise the price on canned pumpkin pie mix prior to Thanksgiving. 

They do something they call a "demographic shift" when they first start analyzing the data. What they are doing is aligning the purchases for a 3 month period with the inventory they need to stock. Let's say it's an area with a lot of elderly people. They'll stock up and slightly boost the prices on the items that elderly people prefer or need. Let's say it's a younger neighborhood of first time homeowners. They'll increase inventory and prices for diapers, kid cereal, etc. 

It's a system called "heuristic data mining" in which previous shopping trends are used to predict future buying habits. It's a souped up version of what the local grocer used to do back when he knew his customers, but now it's highly automated loops through three-dimensional data cubes. They can project how many kids you have, what those kids like to eat and how often, and how many bowel movements your one year old has in a week.

It's big bucks. Last week I was at a major newspaper working with them to put in place something called an intrusion detection system. This is a newspaper, not a grocery store, but they have been tracking the online reading habits of their customers almost every since the internet was invented (thanks, Al Gore!). They know what pages you came from before you hit their website, what you viewed and how often, what ads you clicked, and everything about their subscribers. The system they were most interested in protecting was over TWO TERABYTES of buying habits, advertising views, and personal information regarding their subscribers. They make as much money off of selling those data "slices" as they do from selling subscriptions.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Imho, the shtf progressing into a TEOTW scenario would have to be molasses slow, for the govt. to even function enough to be thinking ahead... and have lists emailed/faxed/mailed to local 'authorities', with info on 'all' the prep hoards out there.

In my most likely shtf scenario progressions, one problem leads to another, and a cascade turns into an avalanche. Grid goes down, fuel deliveries cease the next day, food stores are cleaned out... all within three days. Most retail is gone. Corporate 'may' have power... if they're on their own grid... smaller food corporations probably won't have powered backups on their servers, forever... Ernie could probably tell us how long a server farm will function if the grid at large is gone. Unless the prepper hoard data is continually being aggregated by DHS or whoever, accessing this important info once the shtf would be complicated by dead lines. If DHS or the Hoard Police do have this info constantly updated, are they forwarding it continually to it's local operatives??? If not, exactly how are they going to get this pertinent information to local DHS or HP (hoard police)??? Dead phone lines? Non-existent internet? {Can the internet survive without the grid???) If the grid is down in local areas, exactly how would the locals get it (the info).

History (recent) has proved that most people will not escape the cities. If the shtf in such a way that all cities in the country need to be evacuated, you can KYAG (Kiss your arbuckle goodbye)... you're not going to leave, unless you walk (good luck with that, fighting through the million other desperate citizens trying to escape)... boat out, yeah, if the boats still there... fly? nope. combustion vehicles, no. If you live in town, be prepared for Zombieville... good luck, hunker down, and try and weather out all your neighbors.

Believe it or not, a lot of people do have lots and lots of ammunition.

I can only speak for what I've thought about, but in my shtf/teotw world, most bridges...._ don't exist_.... How they'd come down is still a mystery... but think about bugging out of the city, and the very first bridge you come to ain't there no more???

Take out the bridges, and it's walking time... and only those that also know how to swim... which pretty much limits how much you can carry with you.

Live right on the highway? Major road? I'd be heading for the caves... or at least have most of my supplies buried in barrels. If your along an evacuation route, .....every good person that comes along is going to stop and beg... every bad person that comes along is going to try and take it from you. Totally indefensible positions in strategically terrible locations should be abandoned. If you want to die there, sure... stay and defend and it's dying time. Back up with everything you have, into the 'caves', and you got a good shot of making it.

Back to the OP question? If 99% of the population needs to evacuate the city, I'd say maybe 5% would be alive in six months, maybe as low as 1%. If during the winter, I think you'd be looking at fractions. How many non preppers, non hunters, non backpackers are prepared for camping out in sub zero weather??? Ever slept out in sub zero? Ever slept in a car, shell on a truck? in sub freezing? Got the gear, on hand, right now, to survive out in the weather?

Oh, I don't think Loquismo's post was all that harsh... maybe the survivability of the Rawles type groups... 

I'd give a 'Rawles group' even odds for surviving. I'd give an apartment dweller in downtown *name your metropolis* some 'great' odds... 1 in a 1000, or 10,000. Same person, different group setting.

He who preps the most, in the best location, wins.... all things being equal. Survive the initial troubles (asteroid, volcano, flood, hypercane), and weather out the initial thinnings (first three weeks), and they've got a good chance of making it.

....of course, I could be wrong!


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Your average corporate server farm stockpiles about 3 days worth of diesel fuel to keep their generators running. However their ability to communicate outside of that farm may be severely hampered, depending upon the outage. Most large-scale companies move data from one region to another in a mirrored data center. For example, a data center in Austin might be streaming its data to an alternate data center in Tucson. In the event of the loss of one site they throw a switch and start doing business out of the other.

There are few contingency plans outside of government which deal with nationwide disasters. 

In all likelihood, what I see happening is the government passing laws against "hoarding" and then define hoarding loosely as having supplies onhand past, say for example, a week. They would not be able to scrutinize large database systems quickly, so the best mechanism (so far) would be to establish a tip line and a reward. Something like "If your neighbor is hoarding food, dial 1-800-GOV-FOOD and receive three extra food ration stamps for this month."


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## Andy Nonymous (Aug 20, 2005)

Ernie, "it all depends..."

In an economic collapse, the grid would likely stay up for a substantial length of time, and a tip line (and data mining / collation) could help nail the less prudent stockers. In a grid down situation, chaos could be as much a friend as enemy as it would intensify the 'thining' rate, as well as reduce the odds of intentional discovery to random chance by a much less numerous (but potentially better organized) remainder.

Guesses on what WILL happen in any possible societial devolution have longer odds against being correct than winning the lottery, 5 weeks running. Two things to remember: never start a land war in Asia, never make a bet with a Sicilian when death is on the line, and NEVER underestimate the power or unpedictability of large numbers of stupid people. Ok, forget one of them. As always, YMMV. Side effects may include headache, nausea, dizziness, or heart palpitations. Put the Lime in the coconut, take two and call me in the morning.

I'm still not worried about losing my 2 cans of baked beans and 4 cans of sardines (had to go look and count) - they are pretty close dated, and may not last until the hoards arrive. I'm also developing a taste for baked tree bark, boiled worms from the compost pile, and smoked pond scum, which I don't see anyone else hoarding yet, so there should be plenty for me when the Zombpocolypse arrives. Take note, lurkers: wanna get my goods? - you'll have to pry my pond scum from my cold, slimy fingers, cause it will probably be all I've got.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I thought they already had anti-hoarding laws. And that the govt bodies already have the right, in an emergency, to enter your home and take your food so it can be redistributed to feed everyone......


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## cvk (Oct 30, 2006)

If everything we profess to believe is true then people aren't going anywhere. Firstly, when it comes to large cities and the people living in them--a good percentage don't even own vehicles! How far are they going on foot. If they have cars they need gas! That would be another problem. Secondly, if they are as dense as we like to believe then they will go to a grocery store because they don't have a clue where their food even comes from in the first place and probably would starve to death standing in a garden. LOL


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

On the way out of dodge we'll stop at the minimart and get some soda's and chips . .oh ya .. . a couple packs of cigs.. . .. .then we'll be on our way to peace in the country . . . .up there where we camped last summer . . . . .

Well come on up folks . . .Its going down to 30 below zerro tonight..
"They " want to thin out the herd . . . tonight would be a good time to start.

trouble for us locals in the mess of dead bodies to despose of


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Callieslamb said:


> I thought they already had anti-hoarding laws. And that the govt bodies already have the right, in an emergency, to enter your home and take your food so it can be redistributed to feed everyone......


Only under certain declared situations, and some of those laws are vague and haven't been tested.


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## CocalicoSprings (Mar 12, 2008)

I know an old timer who grew up on a farm in the Netherlands near the border of Germany during WW2. He told me that when the war was in full swing and chaos was the norm that the German army officers came around and marked every single animal on the farm. This fellow was 14 years old at the time. He said the officers came around and confiscated the livestock grown for meat and took all the milk but allowed them to keep only 1 pig and some of the milk from their dairy.
I imagine a similar plan would be enforced by our own military way before there would be roving bands of bad guys trying to steal our food.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

There is no way that Americans will ever do the same thing at the same time. For sure not 99%. Here we elect a president on less than 50% of the vote even if less than 50% of the voters voted. 99% is impossible, we have more people than the remaining 1% who do not exist at all.:run:


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

CocalicoSprings said:


> I know an old timer who grew up on a farm in the Netherlands near the border of Germany during WW2. He told me that when the war was in full swing and chaos was the norm that the German army officers came around and marked every single animal on the farm. This fellow was 14 years old at the time. He said the officers came around and confiscated the livestock grown for meat and took all the milk but allowed them to keep only 1 pig and some of the milk from their dairy.
> I imagine a similar plan would be enforced by our own military way before there would be roving bands of bad guys trying to steal our food.


Maybe poison would be a good item to have on hand. I can't imagine military officers doing the milking themselves. Plant some oleander.


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## KimTN (Jan 16, 2007)

I was thinking the same thing ryanthomas. How about a little Ricin? Just mix in some grain stores and pass it off to your local collection agents. Talk about decreasing your local zombie population. I would even cook the boys a good dinner before they hit the road. I'll collect their weapons later. Call it a delousing if you will. Would have a hard time keeping from smiling as they load it all up.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Poison is too indiscriminate a weapon. What if the government soldiers don't eat it themselves but rather haul it back to Chicago or Detroit and use it to feed starving children there?

In Soviet Russia, the government realized they could not trust the farmers to turn over their produce, nor could they waste the manpower going out and trying to collect it. What they did instead was to create vast farming collectives where the farmers were imprisoned and forced to work. I see that as the most likely scenario here in the States. At first the populations of those work farms will mostly be minor criminals and political prisoners. Then later it will be expanded to consist of those guilty of dissent or insurrection.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

In a world with no fuel, any authority wishing to enforce nebulous anti-hoarding laws, would be doing it on footback or horseback.

Footback/horseback indeed 'would' work, in an area where folks are clustered relatively close. How bout when your a day's ride (I've rode to town before, takes a good part of the day) away from town, and the several bridges across the swollen sloughs and creeks are gone, and it's ford or swim? 

I wouldn't want to be the 'taxman', a days ride from home, out collecting milk and eggs and whatnot... I could imagine bad things happening to the gent in the dark, on the way home, after dark. Similar to the "Robin Hood" tales, where the villagers pay their taxes by day, and RH steals them later, and returns them to the villagers.


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## KimTN (Jan 16, 2007)

They aren't going to haul the food anywhere. The local fat cats are going to eat it. You will effectively kill off the lions that lead the sheep. After that, finish off the sheep and you and your allies take the area. It's about survival. The children are going to die anyway. You weren't planning on starting and orphanage, were you? Sounds cruel, but in such a case, that's the way things would go. Oh, and be careful grinding the beans, ricin is fatal if inhaled.


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## rickd203 (Sep 11, 2005)

ovsfarm said:


> I think those closest to the cities will have to deal with the brunt of this, but I also think that very few city dwellers will have the knowledge and gumption to make it on foot out to where I live. Once here, they would be facing a fairly hostile territory, dotted with people who know it well and know how to protect what is theirs. I can't imagine that would be a very appealing prospect to most urbanites.


 

That would be me unless by some miracle I manage to sell my house. Plan A is to sell my house and get out to the country before TSHTF. Plans B, C, D and E are for if I am still here when TSHTF.
I think Loquisimo is really overestimating how many people would be able to make it out of the city under any sort of disaster. Most low income city people can't seem to afford more than a few gallons of gas at a time. They wouldn't get much more than 50 miles before they ran out of gas. Many of them are used to having so many gas stations close by that they don't even think it's necessary to keep the car topped off in case of emergency. Forget about them getting to the country on foot. About 30% of them are morbidly obese. They wouldn't get more than a mile before they collapsed. Many of them are insulin dependent or need oxygen therapy and mobility scooters to get around. The young people don't seem to know where food comes from before it gets to the grocery store. They will will be my biggest threat but it wouldn't occur to them to go to the country looking for food. I have had many city people say that they need to be around lots of people so much that they would rather die than leave the city.


The actual number of people that could make it more than 100 miles out of the city is more like 10-20%. Some of them will be hardcore gang killers but they will be on unfamiliar ground. A small community that starts preparing for them now should be able to dispatch them if they do show up.


Many of those that do get past 100 miles will be people like me and a few families I will bring with me. We have enough food to get through the first growing season so we would be looking for a small abandoned farm to rebuild. We have a good supply of seeds, chickens, rabbits garden tools and other gear to start. We are used to urban gardening so we know how to get the maximum yield out of small plots of land. 1 or 2 acres of garden should produce enough for us and enough for a trading post. Several of us are ex-military and know how to use the armory of guns and ammo we will have with us. I have been looking at about 90 different properties that would work. Most of the properties are in or near towns of around 500 people. They're small enough to get to know everyone but large enough to mount a good defense when needed.


:cowboy:


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

rickd203,

What makes you think the locals are going to be willing/interested in having you (or other groups) taking over "abandoned farms"? Just because it looks abandoned doesn't mean it doesn't belong to someone local.

I have a feeling that anyone such as yourself who attempts this may be in for a rude awakening. There are a lot more locals than you in rural areas and it's a safe bet that push comes to shove they have enough weapons and the skills/willingness to create a world of hurt for you. If someone like yourself showed up in the manner you describe and folks in the area asked us to help deal with the intruders/thieves, we would probably join in and assist.

If you want a rural place available if the SHTF, you are best off making arrangements in advance such as purchasing a place.

Just a few thoughts.

Mike


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

rickd203 said:


> Many of those that do get past 100 miles will be people like me and a few families I will bring with me. We have enough food to get through the first growing season so we would be looking for a small abandoned farm to rebuild. We have a good supply of seeds, chickens, rabbits garden tools and other gear to start. We are used to urban gardening so we know how to get the maximum yield out of small plots of land. 1 or 2 acres of garden should produce enough for us and enough for a trading post. Several of us are ex-military and know how to use the armory of guns and ammo we will have with us. I have been looking at about 90 different properties that would work. Most of the properties are in or near towns of around 500 people. They're small enough to get to know everyone but large enough to mount a good defense when needed.


Are you actually implying here that you've been scouting out up to 90 different properties that you will take over after government collapse?

Those of us already in rural areas who have endured the hardships will not welcome armed refugees coming in and setting up camp nearby.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Having lived in both the country and the city throughout my life and having experience of both country and city folks....it is my firm opinion that whatever the country folks have will be easily gotten by the city people. Sorry, but its just the hard facts. City people are faster, smarter, stronger. Evolution is a (edited out)


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

I had been thinking about this for awhile and I think those of us in the country would be more apt to make it if the SHTF in the winter months. No one to plow roads and cold bitter nights would keep the city folk where they are. It would be hard on us, but if your prepared I do think the winter would be the better time for us country folks. > Marc


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

I guess I'm not feeling that pessimistic. If you take into consideration people who would never be caught dead in the countryside, those that are in bad health, couch potatoes, people who "believe in" the government, etc... the percentage who would even try to run to the country will be small. Its true that there may be a few million of these people, but they will likely disperse from a major city. So, if you don't live within a day's driving distance from a major city you should be fine.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

kirkmcquest said:


> Having lived in both the country and the city throughout my life and having experience of both country and city folks....it is my firm opinion that whatever the country folks have will be easily gotten by the city people. Sorry, but its just the hard facts. City people are faster, smarter, stronger. Evolution is a (edited out).


:smiley-laughing013:

You can't be serious.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Several of us are ex-military and know how to use the armory of guns and ammo we will have with us.


LOL 
That doesn't make you bullet proof or invisible



> City people are faster, smarter, stronger. Evolution is a (edited out).


....


> it is my firm opinion that whatever the country folks have will be easily gotten by the city people


Molon Labe

It's no problem for me, since with that attitude, *you *won't survive long enough to get this far South.


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## Ode (Sep 20, 2006)

I have to agree with the idea that those living more than a day's drive from large cities, and/or an hour from small cities will most likely be safe from anything described by the OP. I have known far too many people who barely know how to take care of themselves in the city, let alone the countryside. Physically, mentally, and emotionally they are simply unprepared for the realities of fending for themselves when they don't have a home to sleep in every night and easy acess to pre-prepared foods. Add in that most families will have one or more dependant children slowing them down and I just think that the great majority will not even decide to leave until it is far too late, making them unable to leave at all.

Some will leave early enough to get out of the urban sprawl, but there won't be that many really, and they haven't the slightest clue how to survive outside of their comfort zone. there was a program on TLC or some such similar channel, about an apocolyptic situation. The story was from the viewpoint of a family in the city. The husband was a doctor who refused to leave for quite some time, thinking things were going to get better. When he finally did decide they had to go, it was really too late, and there were a lot of things that should have killed them...they only survived because that is how the story was written, and totally not due to their quick wits and survival abilities. One scene had them driving through the desert, without much water. in the morning, the husband noticed his wife and son brushing their teeth and washing with some of their limited numbers of bottled water. And their son had a fit rather than eat something he had never had before, a snake! I was a kid the first time I ate a snake, and I certainly didn't react like that nutty kid did. And I wasn't nearly starving to death at the time either, I ate that snake and it was good!

Too many people have grown up without having ever worked in a garden, aside from some anemic houseplants if that counts. They wouldn't know how to trap an animal or butcher it safely, or recognize wild or even many domestic food plants aside from maybe berries. And I would bet that these same people wouldn't know what berries NOT to eat, no matter how hungry they were. And the ones remaining would not know what to do to preserve any precious extra food stores for harder times. When my husband mentioned I was busy canning to the guys he works with, none of them could believe it, and one even said he didn't know anyone did that these days. You know, what with modern factories and all, there was no need to do any of that primitive stuff anymore, right? And there are grocery stores everywhere, holy cow...who DOES that stuff??? My husband told them that his wife did, and he loved it, and it sure made for some wonderful tasty meals.

Maybe this makes those of us who are interested in this type of lifestyle elitists or something, just not in the way that word is typically used. It doesn't make us snobs, or mean that we all feel like we are superior somehow. But it does confer upon us a much higher chance of survival than the majority of people living in the modern world today in the event of some mass disaster. I am grateful to my grandparents and especially my aunt who taught me gardening and food preservation. My dad was a complete (insert an alternative word for fecal matter here), in just about every way possible. But he DID teach me the invaluable skills of camping (not in an air-conditioned camper, another thing that horrifies my husband's co-workers, lol), hunting, and fishing. I also learned some basics of trapping, and wilderness survival from him, thank goodness. And I am grateful to my husband for getting me into martial arts, where I learned some very good self-defense techniques. 

I would hope that in such a scenario, I would keep on keeping on until it ended. The one thing that cannot be defined is the will to live, and it is the great unknown factor for us all. And it is the single most important trait when the world around you falls apart. I pray I will have it in spades if I ever need it.


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## sticky_burr (Dec 10, 2010)

Astrid said:


> First of all, I don't think people are going to go to the country en masse. Think of all the city folk who "can't stand bugs" or "don't like nature". I think some people will try, but the majority will fail and go back to what they are familiar with. The government may try to get our preps, but many of us don't buy the freeze dried foods that the survival sites sell. They may have a record of who they sold to, but if you have stocked up for a year at your local stores, how would anyone know that you have it?


got your rewards card handy to save 2$ ?


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

ryanthomas said:


> You can't be serious.


City people are competing everyday with people from all over the world. Things change fast. Cities are highly competitive and people living in them are living under higher stress loads.

I love the country, I moved here because I wanted my life to be easier...and it is (much). I'd much rather be here chopping wood and growing carrots than in the city competing with the worlds best and brightest. Thats a hard tough life, and people are exposed to alot more so they learn a lot more. There really is no comparison. I can't believe anyone would doubt this, its like arguing over whether the moon is made of cheese.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

Loquisimo said:


> suddenly decided they just HAD to flee to the that that's ridiculous, that if all those hundreds of millions of city/town folk want your preps, better pray because nothing besides divine intervention will stop them.
> 
> I suspect that somewhere there's a log of every prep stash in America, and that the government will force you to turn over your preps "for the greater EVERYBODY wants your stuff. So they loot every single prep stash in the nation, then turn on each other.
> 
> ...


"Doomer Porn", hmmm, where do find that ? Just kidding - so what are your thoughts - what will you do ?
If I knew someplace to go, I'd go, but I don't see any place better that where I am (& can't sell anyway !?).


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

Roadking said:


> Okay, tinfoil time here...when you shop, do you have a "customer loyality" card to get the discounts? Do you pay with a credit card? Just sayin', because I do, If someone wants to find out what your buying, it really wouldn't be that hard. Heck, I know most the folks at the local grocery store. And they tell me what's coming up, as they do the same thing; stock up, especially on loss leaders and long shelf life stuff.
> You really can't be off the radar, no matter how hard you try, IMO.
> Matt


 True, true, but sheesh, if you think about it how will our fallen govt. fund the HUGE beaurocracy needed to track y'all down & torture ya until ya tell where your stashes are (that is if ya weren't just BS-ing online {not you Roadking - a retorical you.} about having anything laid by).
I suppose the squad will be local which presents a different picture of how to deal with them.
Assuming of course that you are out in a remote, well defended location w/few locals ? (Who are armed - my locals anyway) ?? 
Don't know about y'all, but my pore ol brain has turned to mush with the hacking away day & night at the ramifications of the impending poo-storm.
One thing about it, the world will be immeasurably better off w/out a few bill. of us - myself prolly included.
Don't think this means I'm looking forward to the 'die-off', (I don't want to !), but no society has ever self-corrected & when nature (or the barbarian) does it, it ain't pretty !


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Let's be realistic for a moment. The dooms-day, mad max style, complete chaos scenario is probably the least likely thing that can ever happen. Even in the depression nothing like that ever happened. These things are fun to talk about, but realistically it is extremely unlikely. You're talking about complete lawlessness, the entire fabric of society suddenly melting away.

100 times more likely, would be prolonged depression where food is rationed, etc. Hard times to be sure but a far cry from gangs of marauding city dwellers descending on your shack and stealing your stash. If you recall your history, it was the rural people who came quite often, hat in hand, to the city looking for jobs during the depression and many other times when things were tough.

I worry about some of you when I read these posts. Do you really believe that the government has a list of your food items? I read one woman who was afraid to stock up because she thought the check out boy was keeping record of her stash 'just in case'. This kind of paranoia isn't healthy. Do you really believe that the government is going to show up and rip the tuna cans out of your starving hands? Is this what you think about?


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

Ernie said:


> You know what you good citizens need?
> 
> A little more of the criminal mindset.


Yesss ? Can you elucidate ? Sounds good.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

kirkmcquest said:


> City people are competing everyday with people from all over the world. Things change fast. Cities are highly competitive and people living in them are living under higher stress loads.
> 
> I love the country, I moved here because I wanted my life to be easier...and it is (much). I'd much rather be here chopping wood and growing carrots than in the city competing with the worlds best and brightest. Thats a hard tough life, and people are exposed to alot more so they learn a lot more. There really is no comparison. I can't believe anyone would doubt this, its like arguing over whether the moon is made of cheese.


So, did you just say that all the smart, strong, fast city people, who will be starving within a week of any sort of grid shutdown, will just plan on taking (because they are faster, stronger, smarter) whatever they want?

I concede, as evidenced by your post, that many of those city people THINK they are faster, stronger and smarter... but what does that say about folks like you, who have fled the city for the country.

The only reason you moved to the "country" was because it was "easier", right? So... are you "as smart, strong, and fast" as those in the city, "stronger, faster, and smarter" than those in the city, or not as "strong, smart and fast" as those other city-dwellers? Please detail why you moved to where you did, if the best survivability is in the cities. Most importantly, what do you hope to gain from Homesteading Today... I mean, I would figure that you, being a smarter, faster, stronger city guy, would already know all you need to know.

Of course, history says you're totally wrong. NOLA, Earthquakes, Natural Disasters, the East Coast Blackout, test results of big city school systems that have hit cities... all say you are wrong. 

I'm amused that cities, where the largest gun-owning constituency is criminals, where not many people have more than 1 weeks worth of food, zero ability to heat and cook without the grid, consist of "the brightest and best"... I guess financiers must be the ultimate survivalists.

I'd like to be around when you tell all the good old boys in your new, slower, dumber, weaker community how superior the city-folk are.

Of course, maybe things are different over in the Adirondacks, but over here, everyone detests NYC's sucking function on the rest of the state.

But please, do answer this at least, I am sure I don't have the capability of understanding it very well... being in the country and all, but give it the old college try, eh?: 



> The only reason you moved to the "country" was because it was "easier", right? So... are you "as smart, strong, and fast" as those in the city, "stronger, faster, and smarter" than those in the city, or not as "strong, smart and fast" as those other city-dwellers? Please detail why you moved to where you did, if the best survivability is in the cities. Most importantly, what do you hope to gain from Homesteading Today... I mean, I would figure that you, being a smarter, faster, stronger city guy, would already know all you need to know.


If I in ANY way have misunderstood what you're saying (you know, like arguing whether the moon is made of cheese) please take this opportunity to set me straight.

I just find it incredibly strange that your philosophy would cause you to move to the Adirondacks, come to a prep forum and participate in this discussion... unless you're just trying to poke the natives with a stick.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

seedspreader said:


> So, did you just say that all the smart, strong, fast city people, who will be starving within a week of any sort of grid shutdown, will just plan on taking (because they are faster, stronger, smarter) whatever they want?
> 
> I concede, as evidenced by your post, that many of those city people THINK they are faster, stronger and smarter... but what does that say about folks like you, who have fled the city for the country.
> 
> ...


Well if you read my post you'll see that I clearly indicated that I have lived in both the country and the city throughout my life. So trying to classify me as 'city dweller' or 'city person' is an obvious attempt to pigeon hole me and make this about ME instead of the subject.

Again it is my opinion, which would seem obvious to any SUBJECTIVE person, that city people are exposed to more and have certain advantages. I'm glad to debate that point and if I think you make a better point I'll gladly concede. 

What I will NOT do is participate in your attempt to turn this into a personal thing where you argue as the 'country boy' and me 'the city slicker' on a homesteading forum filled with country people, many of whom clearly have a chip on their shoulder regarding 'city people'( about whom they know nothing). You know nothing about me or my life, so don't assume anything just because I hold an opinion that you don't like.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

And PS... I didn't come here on a 'prep sight' I came here to talk about the things I've done my whole life, like growing veggies/hunting/ and etc.. Personally I find 'prepping' to be a dull subject and mostly a waste of time.


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## rickfrosty (Jun 19, 2008)

kirkmcquest said:


> Let's be realistic for a moment. The dooms-day, mad max style, complete chaos scenario is probably the least likely thing that can ever happen. Even in the depression nothing like that ever happened. These things are fun to talk about, but realistically it is extremely unlikely. You're talking about complete lawlessness, the entire fabric of society suddenly melting away.
> 
> 100 times more likely, would be prolonged depression where food is rationed, etc. Hard times to be sure but a far cry from gangs of marauding city dwellers descending on your shack and stealing your stash. If you recall your history, it was the rural people who came quite often, hat in hand, to the city looking for jobs during the depression and many other times when things were tough.
> 
> I worry about some of you when I read these posts. Do you really believe that the government has a list of your food items? I read one woman who was afraid to stock up because she thought the check out boy was keeping record of her stash 'just in case'. This kind of paranoia isn't healthy. Do you really believe that the government is going to show up and rip the tuna cans out of your starving hands? Is this what you think about?


Well, I think I hope you are right (but OMG what after ?).
But a couple things : during 'the depression' if you didn't live on a farm, your cousins did, or you knew someone, or your city at least had farms all around it, no ? My area has almost no farms left. The 2 that come to mind are no longer functioning.
We were not a society glutted w/a zillion images of violence - even glorifying violence ? We were much more grounded in the morals of religion, or at least some morals.
Also who will ration which food ? Ol' Slick Willie got rid of our national food stockpiles (at the bequest of the dirty dog's Bilderberg masters).
Will Big Agri ration food to us ? & at what cost ?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

kirkmcquest said:


> And PS... I didn't come here on a 'prep sight' I came here to talk about the things I've done my whole life, like growing veggies/hunting/ and etc.. *Personally I find 'prepping' to be a dull subject and mostly a waste of time.*


Very interesting comment to find on a prep forum, and rather insulting to all of us here. Maybe other forums will be more 'entertaining and informative" to you, and not so dull.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

kirkmcquest said:


> Well if you read my post you'll see that I clearly indicated that I have lived in both the country and the city throughout my life. So trying to classify me as 'city dweller' or 'city person' is an obvious attempt to pigeon hole me and make this about ME instead of the subject.
> 
> Again it is my opinion, which would seem obvious to any SUBJECTIVE person, that city people are exposed to more and have certain advantages. I'm glad to debate that point and if I think you make a better point I'll gladly concede.
> 
> What I will NOT do is participate in your attempt to turn this into a personal thing where you argue as the 'country boy' and me 'the city slicker' on a homesteading forum filled with country people, many of whom clearly have a chip on their shoulder regarding 'city people'( about whom they know nothing). You know nothing about me or my life, so don't assume anything just because I hold an opinion that you don't like.


Well, that was a much more reasonable post than suggesting that city-dwellers will automatically have a better chance of surviving and then trying to "pigeon-hole" people into being ignorant if they disagree with you.

If you attempted to originally say that city-folk get a bum rap, I think there are many here that would agree. Me being one. We have some fine folks, who due to choices they have made, or situations they've been put into, who live in the city, and seek to overcome the negatives of living there by being more sustainable. Pelenaka and her husband Woodsrunner, up in the Buffalo area, come to the front of my mind. 

But that ISN'T what you said. 

Honestly, HT has a wide range of people who participate, and all are welcome, but if you make statements on either extreme people are going to address those statements.

I don't know that I would go to a forum, like S&EP, that I thought was rather pointless and hum drum and stir the pot, but don't be surprised if you don't get burnt occasionally stirring the pot.

By the way, I think you mean an OBJECTIVE person. You want someone who is OBJECTIVELY looking at the subject at hand.

So, after a little hard-reset, I still am interested in your opinion, having been a guy who lived in both the city and country... what makes you believe that in a grid-down situation that you've got a better chance to survive since you live in a city??? I *think* you were trying to make that point, although poorly.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

rickfrosty said:


> Well, I think I hope you are right (but OMG what after ?).
> But a couple things : during 'the depression' if you didn't live on a farm, your cousins did, or you knew someone, or your city at least had farms all around it, no ? My area has almost no farms left. The 2 that come to mind are no longer functioning.
> We were not a society glutted w/a zillion images of violence - even glorifying violence ? We were much more grounded in the morals of religion, or at least some morals.
> Also who will ration which food ? Ol' Slick Willie got rid of our national food stockpiles (at the bequest of the dirty dog's Bilderberg masters).
> Will Big Agri ration food to us ? & at what cost ?


We do produce more food than most any other nation. It's our biggest export. I don't see food becoming scarce here. The cities are our hubs for trade. Everything that needs to be had comes almost always, at some point through a city. You might have all the food in the world but if you want clothes, new equipment and etc your going to have to interact with the rest of us. Thats what keeps society civil, more so than the threat of jack-booted law enforcers on the government payroll.

I think morals are firmly in place, I don't believe the hype about our decaying morals. After 9/11 people who you never figured for having any conscience came out and rolled up their sleeves to stand together and volunteer to help. Many of them not religious at all. They didn't 'hole up' and guard their stash (some did I'm sure) they went out and fixed things as best they could and many got sick doing it ( thats another story).


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

seedspreader said:


> Well, that was a much more reasonable post than suggesting that city-dwellers will automatically have a better chance of surviving and then trying to "pigeon-hole" people into being ignorant if they disagree with you.
> 
> If you attempted to originally say that city-folk get a bum rap, I think there are many here that would agree. Me being one. We have some fine folks, who due to choices they have made, or situations they've been put into, who live in the city, and seek to overcome the negatives of living there by being more sustainable. Pelenaka and her husband Woodsrunner, up in the Buffalo area, come to the front of my mind.
> 
> ...


I disagree with your assessment of my original post and its intent, but I thank you for correcting my use of the word 'subjective' and yes I meant 'objective'.

Anyway, getting passed all that...in a grid down situation I would not be living in a city I live far from any city, so again lets talk about the subject not 'me'. O.K?

My original point was that living in a city a person is forced to be more competitive. There is a larger pool of talent and more challenges on a day to day basis. This makes a person 'sharp' and having to live that way for a long time will make you a more competent person. Yes there are stereo-typical 'yuppies' who know nothing about how to do for themselves, who think food does come from the supermarket, and who can't function without their morning Latte. Those are the people that 'country folk' like to focus on and it makes them feel good to believe that those are the 'city folks'. I don't blame them for that, likewise there are those inbred people in the country without teeth, who live in shacks and are so dumb they cannot be communicated with. Those are the people that some city types like to prop up as the 'country bumpkin'.

We would all like to believe that the other guy isn't as good as us, that's human nature. But forgetting all the stereo-types and stripping away the ego-driven perceptions, we have people, some smart and capable and some not-so.

So why do I believe that the city people would have the better of the country folk in a SHTF scenario? Because of the reasons I have already given, they live in a faster paced, think on your feet, competitive environment. On top of that, the people that would come up from their comfort zones and seek your treasure would be the most aggressive of the lot. The Latte sippers aren't going to do that, they will be the first to fall prey to the marauders IMO. If people are going to come to you from the city, it will likely be the most aggressive survivors ( top of the food chain ) who have been brought up in a more aggressive, competitive environment than most 'country folk' have ever experienced.

Remember many people who live in the big cities these days aren't even from there. You have people from poor countries, survivors, who clawed their way to America and claw their way through every day. That type of mentality just doesn't exist, from what I've seen, here in the country. People here don't even lock their doors!

I love living in a place where I don't have have to lock my doors, don't get me wrong. I like living in a place where I don't have to keep a 360 degree awareness of my surroundings when walking in an unfamiliar area.....but I do anyway.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

kirkmcquest said:


> My original point was that living in a city a person is forced to be more competitive. There is a larger pool of talent and more challenges on a day to day basis. This makes a person 'sharp' and having to live that way for a long time will make you a more competent person. Yes there are stereo-typical 'yuppies' who know nothing about how to do for themselves, who think food does come from the supermarket, and who can't function without their morning Latte. Those are the people that 'country folk' like to focus on and it makes them feel good to believe that those are the 'city folks'. I don't blame them for that, likewise there are those inbred people in the country without teeth, who live in shacks and are so dumb they cannot be communicated with. Those are the people that some city types like to prop up as the 'country bumpkin'.


What evidence are you basing this theory on?

Every disaster we've seen in modern times points the opposite way. Not only in America, but in every city in the world.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Ernie said:


> What evidence are you basing this theory on?
> 
> Every disaster we've seen in modern times points the opposite way. Not only in America, but in every city in the world.


These are all our opinions so lets not kid each other about 'evidence'.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

kirkmcquest said:


> These are all our opinions so lets not kid each other about 'evidence'.


It's hardly my opinion when there are specific examples to look at which disprove your point. Let's take just one recent disaster which we are probably all familiar with:

Hurricane Katrina. It devastated both rural and city folks. In the rural areas we saw people helping each other, using boats to evacuate their neighbors to higher ground, setting up HAM radio stations, and when the waters receded they began rebuilding almost immediately. 

In the city we saw widespread looting, starving people on rooftops waving for help, and disease and mayhem in the "safe" zones where the people were confined. Many of the rescues you did see on the television were rural folks and folks from other locations coming in to help the locals. 

And now YEARS after the event, what we mostly hear from the city folks there is dissatisfaction about the quality of the government shelter they've been given and demands for more money.

If you mean that city people are more ruthless and willing to break the law in order to survive, then I might be willing to concede that point. Some certainly are. However that will be a relatively small population and banditry has never been a long-term problem for organized, disciplined rural folks. 

The fact is that city people have not fared as well as rural people in almost any natural disaster that has struck around the world for known history. My OPINION is that your statement is poorly thought-out.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Ernie said:


> It's hardly my opinion when there are specific examples to look at which disprove your point. Let's take just one recent disaster which we are probably all familiar with:
> 
> Hurricane Katrina. It devastated both rural and city folks. In the rural areas we saw people helping each other, using boats to evacuate their neighbors to higher ground, setting up HAM radio stations, and when the waters receded they began rebuilding almost immediately.
> 
> ...


I think you are getting way off track here, and that is probably contributing to your confusion about my opinion.

I'm not saying that cities are SAFER places to be in a SHTF scenario. Quite the opposite in fact. And its for that very reason that if people were to come up from the city to get your stuff ( again this is a theoretical scenario invented by the OP) you would be dealing with a very formidable force. If a group of people survive whatever horrors befell the city, and actually make out to you to aggressively get your stuff....my money is on the marauders.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Ernie said:


> The fact is that city people have not fared as well as rural people in almost any natural disaster that has struck around the world for known history.


Well of course, but lets not confuse ourselves as to WHY cities are harder hit by disasters. There are more people! A square mile in a city can have a million people at any given time. Obviously an earthquake in a sparsely populated area isn't going to produce the same body count or property damage.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

kirkmcquest, I've lived in cities, too...Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans, Denver. I've spent more time in the country. City people in general are probably more educated, at least the professionals, and I get your point about being more competitive. I think that's true, but they also tend to be very specialized, with not much useful knowledge outside their own fields. Country people, well sure there are the lazy welfare meth-lab types, but for the most part I've found country people to be very intelligent and even ingenious. When I need a solution to a tough problem, I ask a farmer for help before I ask my dad who's an engineer.

I agree with this part of what you said:


> The dooms-day, mad max style, complete chaos scenario is probably the least likely thing that can ever happen.


The only thing that I think will wipe out society as we know it is a huge EMP, which I don't think is likely to happen soon. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't prepare for whatever may come. Even if a long depression is the worst that happens, I prefer to be ready for it. If you think it's silly, that's fine, don't prepare. But clearly the people in this forum think it's important.


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## Jakk (Aug 14, 2008)

TnAndy said:


> Sure do.
> 
> All in the name of John E. Cash, who lives at 123 Main St, (my town) TN. And his phone number is 555-1234......and he seems to have a preference for using folding money.
> 
> And when the checkout gal says brightly "You saved xx$ today with your card", I usually reply "honey....I know they tell you to say that, but we both know they simply mark the stuff up on the shelves so as to give a phony discount here at the register"


I have customer loyalty cards from each the local grocery stores by me and I did not use my real full name or address. They gave me a form to fill out, I used my first and middle names, no last name, and (oops) happened to write my address wrong. Big places like BJ's or Sams "clubs" take your drivers license and that is why I don't belong.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

kirkmcquest said:


> I disagree with your assessment of my original post and its intent, but I thank you for correcting my use of the word 'subjective' and yes I meant 'objective'.
> 
> Anyway, getting passed all that...in a grid down situation I would not be living in a city I live far from any city, so again lets talk about the subject not 'me'. O.K?
> 
> ...


I read this one after my reply. I think this is a lot more reasonable and I actually agree with it. But I still don't think any of the city people you talk about will be getting anything from me unless I choose to give it to them.


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Jakk said:


> I have customer loyalty cards from each the local grocery stores by me and I did not use my real full name or address. They gave me a form to fill out, I used my first and middle names, no last name, and (oops) happened to write my address wrong. Big places like BJ's or Sams "clubs" take your drivers license and that is why I don't belong.


A little trick I learned is just don't fill the form out at all. The card still works. At least at Kroger, the only card I have.


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## Fat Charlie (Sep 9, 2010)

The best and brightest from the city can probably come up with a nifty Powerpoint slide show explaining why you should feed them. Maybe a slick new financial instrument to dupe you into signing over the farm to them. They compete with markets, companies and coworkers. Their idea of foraging involves a stack of takeout menus, and a successful hunt means reservations at a trendy restaurant. Come on- the city's best and brightest think firearms will bite them and their strongest and most vicious think that a nine is actually a weapon. 

I visit a friend in Manhattan once a year. The vast amount of infrastructure those places require is insane. A big city is going to collapse in on itself pretty quickly, raiding empty places inside and just outside the city. There'll be some leakers, but any wave of marauders is going to eat itself up before it gets very far. The ones that truly get out will be a problem, but there won't be a wave of them.


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## rickd203 (Sep 11, 2005)

Mike in Ohio said:


> rickd203,
> 
> What makes you think the locals are going to be willing/interested in having you (or other groups) taking over "abandoned farms"? Just because it looks abandoned doesn't mean it doesn't belong to someone local.
> 
> ...


 
It's foolish to assume that you speak for everyone living in rural areas. I have traveled across the country and I have found many places that would welcome some extra hands to produce food and defend their town. If you are so paranoid as to think that everyone that comes your way is an enemy, so be it. Good luck trying to survive by yourself. When TSHTF you aren't going to last very long with that attitude.


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## rickd203 (Sep 11, 2005)

Ernie said:


> Are you actually implying here that you've been scouting out up to 90 different properties that you will take over after government collapse?
> 
> Those of us already in rural areas who have endured the hardships will not welcome armed refugees coming in and setting up camp nearby.


 
I have found properties in areas that I have traveled through that want more people that would pitch in to help them survive tough times. We are more than capable of earning a place wherever we go. If you want to try to survive without any help from anyone, that's fine by me. Good Luck.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Many of those that do get past 100 miles will be *people like me *and a few families I will bring with me. We have enough food to get through the first growing season so we* would be looking for a small abandoned farm to rebuild*. We have a good supply of seeds, chickens, rabbits garden tools and other gear to start. We are used to urban gardening so we know how to get the maximum yield out of small plots of land. 1 or 2 acres of garden should produce enough for us and enough for a trading post. Several of us are *ex-military and know how to use the armory of guns and ammo we will have with us.* I have been looking at about 90 different properties that would work. Most of the properties are in or near towns of around 500 people. They're small enough to get to know everyone but *large enough to mount a good defense when needed*.





> If you are so* paranoid *as to think that everyone that comes your way is an enemy, so be it. Good luck trying to survive by yourself. *When TSHTF you aren't going to last very long with that attitude*.


LOL

What is "paranoid" about taking you *at your word*?

You say you will leave the city with your band, and take over property that doesn't belong to you.

You say you will be heavily armed and ready to fight anyone who challenges your *theft*.

I'd say it's you who won't last long with that attitude if you think you can just come in and take things over.

You ARE an "enemy"


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## forfreedom (Dec 3, 2008)

ryanthomas said:


> Big places like BJ's or Sams "clubs" take your drivers license and that is why I don't belong.


Now I know why I refuse every attempt of my mother to drag me into SAMS! :hammer:

Wow, what a heated discussion. Quite frankly folks, I hate it when the board starts getting a little hostile. 

Excellent subject though. You forgot a segment of population who is between the rock and the hard place, your's truly: not in the city, but not in the country either. I think in the event described by the OP, every surrounding subdivision resident will be looting in my backyard. I can conceal a lot of food underground and even cook it indiscriminately. My only concern is chickens. They are very noisey and I will have to part with them. I was thinking to always have a new batch, continiously, so that when (if) event occurs, I will have a small bunch of week-olds who can be kept quiet for three months. I will have to hide them in the woods somehow for the duration.

I think discussions like these are very helpful, not to feed the paranoya, but to mentally prepare for the events and to practice possible scenarios in your head. If such and such happens, what do I do? :grouphug:


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

And if people notice, the OP posted and left, and is not part of the discussion.

He lives with his mother, and she does not prep - He's posted about it on this or other forums within HT, so I'm not saying anything I've not read from his posts.

It is a more than normal extreme post for this forum, and some are sure using it for all it's worth. 

But I have learned more about some of you from it.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

ryanthomas said:


> I read this one after my reply. I think this is a lot more reasonable and I actually agree with it. But I still don't think any of the city people you talk about will be getting anything from me unless I choose to give it to them.


Yeah, don't get me wrong, some of the survivalist 'prepper' types are a whole different species. I'm talking about run of the mill, guy next door 'country folks'. Most of the people around, whether country or city bred, will look at you cock-eyed if you ask what 'preps' they've made for SHTF scenario or 'zombie defense tactics'.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

ryanthomas said:


> kirkmcquest, I've lived in cities, too...Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans, Denver. I've spent more time in the country. City people in general are probably more educated, at least the professionals, and I get your point about being more competitive. I think that's true, but they also tend to be very specialized, with not much useful knowledge outside their own fields. Country people, well sure there are the lazy welfare meth-lab types, but for the most part I've found country people to be very intelligent and even ingenious. When I need a solution to a tough problem, I ask a farmer for help before I ask my dad who's an engineer.
> 
> I agree with this part of what you said:
> 
> ...


Yes city people tend to be more educated and more specialized because that is where their attention is focused because it pays bigger rewards right now. But turn those little minds towards a survival scenario and you will get a whole different result. And lets not tell ourselves that people who live 'in the city' are all sitting behind a desk working on 'powerpoint' (as one poster suggested).

All my friends who live in the city are policemen, firefighters, construction workers, electricians, ems and etc.. These are do-ers, who deal with situations everyday that many non-city people have not imagined in their worst nightmares. If you think they are going to roll over and die because the supermarket shelves are empty you are kidding yourself and you are underestimating the competition.....a rookie mistake.

PS

I'm all for being prepared. I just feel personally that I should focus on being prepared for the more likely scenario of a rising cost of living, a falling dollar, and a depression. To fret over lawless, city marauders, coming to get your stuff is 10 steps too far for me. What I do hear continually on this site, drummed over and over again, is how frightened rural people are of the specter of 'city people'. I do think country people have it good, they do have strengths, many are good people, and there is no need to constantly express this feeling of inferiority. You do not have to be afraid, the big bad city people are not going to come and wreck your lives. In most cases they want less to do with you than you want with them.


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Just by way of example, as I said I have moved between country and city living many times in my life...when I was living in 'the country' a number of years ago, my neighbor was one of these guys who hated the city people, who he called the 'stupid people'. They were the stupid people but his livelihood and that of his family depended on those 'stupid people' because he ran a business that depended on the summer vacationers.

It was always my opinion that because he depended on those people he resented them, because he resented his reliance on them and that made him feel small....so they become the 'stupid people'...the people that he's really better than.


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## Cascade Failure (Jan 30, 2007)

The whole city vs. country thing has been talked around forever. The debate is as useful as north vs. south. 

The fact is there are capable, prepared people everywhere. Please, don't let assumptions and preconceived notions be your downfall.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

kirkmcquest said:


> All my friends who live in the city are policemen, firefighters, construction workers, electricians, ems and etc.. These are do-ers, who deal with situations everyday _that many non-city people have not imagined in their worst nightmares_. .


OK, so, like what exactly?


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## KimTN (Jan 16, 2007)

Well, there will be some city folks that have the means to survive and some country folks that have the means to survive. Stating that one group is so much smarter, stronger, whatever is kind of arrogant. I would not want to take on some backwoods hick in the swamps with all my advanced degrees and military training. People are smart in their own environments and situations. Don't ever underestimate your opponent. A lot of very educated individuals have moved out in rural areas because they feel that it will give them the advantage if things go bad. I would not put down my less educated neighbors because most of them are down right clever. There is something to the saying that a country boy will survive. And I wouldn't try to take his stuff either.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

So let's do a quick recap. rickd203 says he and his band of merry friends will go into a community they have no prior relationship with and decide what is abandoned and what is not and what they will TAKE. He expects that the locals will go along because it is him that is doing the taking rather than someone else. The locals will fall over themselves to go along with rickd203 because they are so short of extra hands.

I'm sure the locals will go along with rickd203... just because. He writes nonsense about me thinking I will get along by myself. Here's a clue ricky boy. My wifes family has been in the area since Western Reserve time. I've known folks in the area for roughly 20 years and we bought our farm (which has been in the extended family since before Ohio was a state) a decade ago. Working with local folks in the area is not "going it alone". Having a healthy dose of skepticism and amusement regarding someone like yourself is a fairly reasonable response to your attitude.

You know, those slow moving haystem chewing country bumpkins that are a lot slower than the quick thinking city folk like kirkmcquest won't have a clue as to dealing with someone like rickd203. They will fall down on their knees in gratitude that rickd203 has come along to relieve them of having to deal with the burden of abandoned land. 

They will welcome him and his crew with welcome arms because he is bringing them chickens. Live chickens are something new and wondrous to country folk. Don't eggs come from a carton or something? Glory be, you learn something new every day.

And of course those country bumplkins wouldn't know the business end of a firearm from a tree root. Nosirree bob, country folk just don't have a clue about those sorts of things. Them there experts from the city are going to teach them what's what.

As someone said earlier, doomer porn and a lot of fantasizing. Bearfootfarm called it right when he wrote about taking you at your word. If a man tells me he is a thief, why would I not treat him accordingly?

And as far as rickd203 helping me out by giving a dictionary definition of abandoned", I think most "locals" can recite chapter and verse the history of each parcel of land in the area and won't give a pile of deer pellets as to whether he has decided it is abandoned or not. 

rickd203 , You aren't being polite and using phrases like "please" and "may I?" when you talk about taking things that don't belong to you. I'm sure your mama would be ashamed at your lack of manners if she knew how you are talking. Your papa would likely take a strap and tan your hide for that kind of rudeness. Didn't your parents teach you how to play nice with others? It's that kind of attitude that can cause folks to shoot first and feed the hogs later. And the problem there is that you would likely give the hogs indigestion.

You might find yourself equally offended if a bunch of strangers showed up in your neighborhood waving weapons around and telling folks how things are going to be. And are we to accept and believe your group that is waving weapons around or is it that other group over there we should accept and believe? 

As long as we are engaging in doomer porn, my belief is that you don't make it the hundred odd miles of your Mad Max fantasy. More likely some biker gang is going to turn you into their boy toy long before you get close to anything remotely resembling rural and have the chance to show the local yokels what's what.

Mike

P.S. Angie, can we rename this the doomer porn fantasy forum?

P.P.S Apologies to kirkmcquest for conflating him with rickd203 in my response.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Mike, that was rickd203 whose survival strategy is banditry. Not, rickmcquest. 

Rickmcquest is the one who supports the belief that city people will somehow be better prepared to handle a crisis than rural people. 

It may surprise some of you to know that those of us who think about these things are ALREADY planning for this. We've discussed it with like-minded folks around tables and campfires. We know who is going to go where and which homesteads have the likeliest chance of success. We've agreed upon it beforehand and agreements have been struck. 

And we have plans to defend those homesteads from the people who have decided that their survival plan will include taking from others by force.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

> P.S. Angie, can we rename this the doomer porn fantasy forum?


I'll take it under consideration and discuss with Chuck.:smiley-laughing013::runforhills:


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

By the way, folks, it's an important time to note that some potential bandits ARE reading this forum. Their survival plans include waiting around until law and order breaks down and then taking by force. 

Please use caution when discussing where you live, what you have, or in posting any identifiable photos of your property. Not everyone here is your friend. Based on this thread alone you should realize that some folks don't intend to prep or prepare beyond arming themselves and plotting out in advance what they intend to take. 

Don't give them the intel they need to try and take YOUR stuff.


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## Astrid (Nov 13, 2010)

Jim-mi said:


> On the way out of dodge we'll stop at the minimart and get some soda's and chips . .oh ya .. . a couple packs of cigs.. . .. .then we'll be on our way to peace in the country . . . .up there where we camped last summer . . . . .
> 
> Well come on up folks . . .Its going down to 30 below zerro tonight..
> "They " want to thin out the herd . . . tonight would be a good time to start.
> ...



Don't forget the beer.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Ernie said:


> Mike, that was rickd203 whose survival strategy is banditry. Not, rickmcquest. .


My bad Ernie, I was chewing on a piece of hay and got confused. I will tidy up my post so that the correct issues are attributed to each of them.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Ernie said:


> By the way, folks, it's an important time to note that some potential bandits ARE reading this forum. Their survival plans include waiting around until law and order breaks down and then taking by force.
> 
> Please use caution when discussing where you live, what you have, or in posting any identifiable photos of your property. Not everyone here is your friend. Based on this thread alone you should realize that some folks don't intend to prep or prepare beyond arming themselves and plotting out in advance what they intend to take.
> 
> Don't give them the intel they need to try and take YOUR stuff.


Ernie,

Think of it as kind of like putting bait out for deer.

Here little bandit. Nice little bandit. Awe phooey.... all you brought was your mac10 and a handful of ammo.... and the ammo is only 9mm, not .45acp. And the 9mm isn't even +p. BAD BANDIT!


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## 36376 (Jan 24, 2009)

I was describing this thread to my husband. He said those that come from the city to take probably will never be seen again... Can you hear the banjos?


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## GoldenCityMuse (Apr 15, 2009)

To thrive & surviev in a city environs is a much different skillset than what is needed in the country. There is some overlap, but the majority do not overlap much.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

kirkmcquest said:


> Having lived in both the country and the city throughout my life and having experience of both country and city folks....it is my firm opinion that whatever the country folks have will be easily gotten by the city people. Sorry, but its just the hard facts. City people are faster, smarter, stronger. Evolution is a (edited out)


True, true... Investment bankers, lawyers, accountants, etc., are wayyy smarter than po' country folks. I daresay quite a few of em are rich... but give one a shovel and a bag of seeds, a cow needed milking, or a skunk needing shooting, I'm putting my money on the country fella.




rickd203 said:


> About 30% of them are morbidly obese. They wouldn't get more than a mile before they collapsed. Many of them are insulin dependent or need oxygen therapy and mobility scooters to get around. The young people don't seem to know where food comes from before it gets to the grocery store.
> :cowboy:


 I think the morbidly obese, and just the regular old fatty obese, and the faster, smarter, stronger younger folks will meet each other halfway... long pork will be on the menu, before long.



kirkmcquest said:


> Let's be realistic for a moment. The dooms-day, mad max style, complete chaos scenario is probably the least likely thing that can ever happen. Even in the depression nothing like that ever happened. These things are fun to talk about, but realistically it is extremely unlikely. You're talking about complete lawlessness, the entire fabric of society suddenly melting away.
> 
> 100 times more likely, would be prolonged depression where food is rationed, etc. Hard times to be sure but a far cry from gangs of marauding city dwellers descending on your shack and stealing your stash. If you recall your history, it was the rural people who came quite often, hat in hand, to the city looking for jobs during the depression and many other times when things were tough.


My agrarian grandparents indeed sought, and being industrious, found jobs in town... sorry, no hats in hand... that's for beggars. Both of them were quite skilled, and had a multitude of experiences under their belt (if something needed done, they had to do it theirselves). They did the work thing, for cash, to pay the property taxes, that would feed all the slaves in town. They never had much money before the Depression, but they were before, during, and afterwards always well fed, owning land, cattle, hogs, chickens, yada yada yada.


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## Fat Charlie (Sep 9, 2010)

wyld thang said:


> kirkmcquest said:
> 
> 
> > All my friends who live in the city are policemen, firefighters, construction workers, electricians, ems and etc.. These are do-ers, who deal with situations everyday that many non-city people have not imagined in their worst nightmares.
> ...


City stuff. You know, crimes, fires, power tools, wiring, injuries and the like. Things like that smarten you up.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Fat Charlie said:


> City stuff. You know, crimes, fires, power tools, wiring, injuries and the like. Things like that smarten you up.


ound:


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

I think I'm going to vote Kirk off the island first chance I get.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

I think the premise of the OP is waaaay off, no way 99% of the city dwellers are ever going to descend on the countryside. But there would be some. But, it isn't like most country dwellers never thought of that before or are sitting ducks, now is it? Country people are the original preppers. When you live where there isn't a 24-hour, sells everything store right down on the corner, you think ahead. You have to. Especially when you know the weather can easily keep you from getting to what stores you do have. You don't run around with the car on empty or wait until you have the last diaper on the baby to go get more. And when you can't pick up the phone and call animal control to come deal with a pesky critter, you better possess the means to take care of it yourself. 

And oh my gosh, the arrogance of youth, KirkM and Rick#! Especially Kirk's assertion that the city mouse is superior to the country mouse. You can be as smart, quick thinking and competitive as you want, but if you don't have the skills, you don't have the skills. Even if you understand something inside and out in an intellectual way, you simply can't learn/do some things without experience. You might have a degree in marine biology and still not be able to set the hook and land the fish, ya know??


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> By the way, folks, it's an important time to note that some potential bandits ARE reading this forum. Their survival plans include waiting around until law and order breaks down and then taking by force.


LOL

I can sit here at my computer and look out the window at the "abandoned" farm across the road.

The 100 year old house no one lives in and the old tractor shed out back dont show a lot of signs of use

The big field beside the house would make a nice 4 acre garden.

I'll let them take it over and get it up and running before I tell them it's part of MY farm.

I hope they have some cool guns and pretty chickens, and maybe a nice cow or two


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> i think i'm going to vote kirk off the island first chance i get.


lol


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

Loquisimo said:


> ......Either you get a situation like Argentina, or you get a situation like the Taliban. There are simply too many of them and not enough of us, in the final analysis. Don't fool yourself-if they really truly want your stuff, THEY WILL GET IT. Or they will look around and raid the guy who's not starving. The Rawles scenario where the little fortress of people repels jillions of invaders sounds heroic, but it can't happen. Either you run out of ammo, or the people turn on each other, or just plain get overrun. Prepping is fine, but go into it with eyes open. If everybody is starving and you're not, who will they go see about a "contribution"?


That's a good point about the Taliban.

Consider that Afghanistan is a nation where just about every family has an AK-47 to protect itself. Yet, we've seen time and again, when the US security forces move out of an area, the people readily cave in to Taliban thugs to rule over them after the police are attacked.

I suppose in their position, I would seem to roll over and hand over a portion of my preps to the taliban - keeping the rest hidden. the thugs are satisfied that I've paid tribute to them and move on.

Kinda like the way Americans pay off mafia hoods today. So you wanna sell your fish at the market? Gotta pay the mob 10 percent and just raise the prices on what you sell to your customers. That way, you make a living and you don't get your legs broken. After a while, you learn to like your oppressors and learn to haggle with them. - Hey Mr. Gotti, I need a favor. You know I been paying faithfully all these years. Well, I gotta problem. There's this new country hick who opened a store down the road who is taking away some of my business. You know, he ain't one of us from the old country. I'm making less money because his prices are cheaper. Can you help me put him out of business? You know it'll result in more payout to you. Thank you. You know my family and yours been good to each udder.

Al Capone did it very succesfully until the government intervened. The only people who got killed by the mob were those who did not pay a piece of the pie. they were well-armed rivals. But sooner or later, you WILL let down your guard and they will get you. Usually when you have your family together for a dinner after a christening or a wedding. then, you all end up face down in a plate of spaghetti.

Always a man to pay.

It sucks, but it's survival.


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## Andy Nonymous (Aug 20, 2005)

What was that statistic?? Something like 99% of all statistics are made up on the spot?

Making blanket generalizations (city dwellers are sharper / more aggressive, country folks are survivalists) may be easy, but neither are correct. I'm not even sure that on average either point is valid. 

People are people, and regardless of location, there will be some very sharp, very broadly talented, well motivated and capable people who can and will do "whatever it takes to survive". Some are already "prep" material, regardless of how many people per square mile there are around them. There are also some willfully ignorant, slothful, dependent people that exist only by subsidy. I live in the sticks, and have one as a neighbor. 

Trying to dichotomize "who will survive" by overly simplistic criteria over all possible scenarios, is laughable, yet we have over a hundred posts doing mostly that. Some that shouldn't have survived NOLA, did. Some that should have, didn't. Chance is like that.

It's also easy to forget that most of the people who come here are already well to the right on the prep bell curve, and in looking back, it looks like everyone else (to the left) is standing naked in the rain. 

I feel pretty confident in theorizing (from experience) that the vast majority of people fall somewhere in between the extremes of "instant game over" and "bunker hunker". Some may have some redeeming talents for long term manure (like some farmers or city emt's), but may not be 'Homestead prepped'; while others may have some preps, but have no redeeming long term talents (like a simple hoarder). Who will survive? It depends on too many other factors, some of which may be local, some global, and probably most importantly how the individual gets along with others. Team players will fare better, longer, than 'Rambo' types.

I can't recall at the moment whose sig line states "Chance favors the well prepared", but it does. Expert lumberjacks have had trees kill them. Paid firemen die in fires. Being well trained, practiced and prepared for what we have to do on a daily basis, sometimes in spite of what happens in the world around us, is a *measure* of survivability, but no guarantee of it. Any one of us, regardless of prep level or training, can end up in a situation, however large or small, in which the manure overwhelms us. 

Will I survive? What do you get when you cross an elephant with a rhinoceros? (Eleph-Ino)

One stat I don't have to look up, is that 100% of us will die, eventually, regardless of how many nights we can survive in a pine bough lean-to at -40, or how many beans, bullets or bandaids we may have stocked. And I have to admit that "survival" in some scenarios may be highly overrated. 

Thanks, Loquismo, for bringing out the clowns, as well as the saner heads (and tales), and thanks, Angie, for letting this run it's course.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

forfreedom said:


> ....my backyard. I can conceal a lot of food underground and even cook it indiscriminately. My only concern is chickens. They are very noisey and I will have to part with them. I was thinking to always have a new batch, continiously, so that when (if) event occurs, I will have a small bunch of week-olds who can be kept quiet for three months. I will have to hide them in the woods somehow for the duration.....


Not to hijack the thread, but you might consider an indoor chicken battery:

"A complete chicken raising plant. With this broiler battery in your basement, garage or shed, and with no other equipment, you can raise baby chicks to 2 or 2 1/2 pound broilers in 8 to 10 weeks. Not more than 10 minutes a day care will give you 30 broilers a month at a feed cost of 16 cents a pound or less, depending on feed prices."
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Sustainable-Farming/1970-03-01/Easy-Ways-To-Raise-Tender-Chicken.aspx

To everyone else, we now return to our regularly scheduled discussion....


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## Usingmyrights (Jan 10, 2011)

ryanthomas said:


> This is one area where the disconnect between people and their food supply is a good thing. In the city, people think food comes from a grocery store. Maybe we can hope they won't make the connection to where it comes from before it gets to the store.



I saw this newspaper clipping on another site and someone made it up with the boarder and the saying. I think it turned out well.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

As the benevolent King of ConAgra in this time of great economic upheaval, I open my arms to all your city dwellers who have come to my bountiful acres. My staff and security forces have been expecting you since the first stock market crash and we have prepared accordingly. In fact, the village of trailers you see at the far end of the compound will be assigned for your lodging.

Pledge allegiance to me, work hard and you will be fed, sheltered and kept safe. Please line up to the tent on your left for processing. No weapons allowed within the compound. Let the clerk know what size uniform you need. Wake up is 4 AM. Breakfast at 5. Work starts at 5:30 and ends at 7PM.

Tonight we have a special feast in honor of the Emperor of Monsanto.

Work hard and you shall live well. Work poorly and, well, you know...


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

BillHoo said:


> That's a good point about the Taliban.
> 
> Consider that Afghanistan is a nation where just about every family has an AK-47 to protect itself. Yet, we've seen time and again, when the US security forces move out of an area, the people readily cave in to Taliban thugs to rule over them after the police are attacked.
> 
> ...


Well, yeah, of course those poor Afghanis "cave" to the Taliban when the Taliban grabs one son, slits his throat, throws a daughter into the truck never to be seen again, then grabs another kid, holds the knife to his throat and _then_ says do or die. 

Sorry, I always laugh at people who laugh at Mad Max. They don't realize, nor have an appreciation for just what a thin line separates anybody from peace or mayhem.


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## Usingmyrights (Jan 10, 2011)

kirkmcquest said:


> Again it is my opinion, which would seem obvious to any SUBJECTIVE person, that city people are exposed to more and have certain advantages. I'm glad to debate that point and if I think you make a better point I'll gladly concede.


I wouldn't say that they are exposed to more. Just different things. There's things that country people are exposed to that city people wouldn't be.




kirkmcquest said:


> We do produce more food than most any other nation. It's our biggest export. I don't see food becoming scarce here. The cities are our hubs for trade. Everything that needs to be had comes almost always, at some point through a city. You might have all the food in the world but if you want clothes, new equipment and etc your going to have to interact with the rest of us. Thats what keeps society civil, more so than the threat of jack-booted law enforcers on the government payroll.


So in a time when food is scarce do you honestly think that the producers are going to be giving it up unless it was a benefit to them in some way? It doesn't have to go through the city. Its currently the easiest way to get it to market, but it can be traded locally. As far as clothes and such, most country people don't get too concerned about having the latest and greatest styles. They can deal with an old pair of jeans and a worn shirt. There's a good chance that an older female in the family can make stuff from a bolt of cloth. They're good at problem solving as well. It may be rigged, but keeping stuff running is what they do. Trying to get the most life out of something instead of running out and buying a new mower because Bob next door just got a new "Ultra Mower 3000".




ryanthomas said:


> kirkmcquest, I've lived in cities, too...Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans, Denver. I've spent more time in the country. City people in general are probably more educated, at least the professionals, and I get your point about being more competitive. I think that's true, but they also tend to be very specialized, with not much useful knowledge outside their own fields. Country people, well sure there are the lazy welfare meth-lab types, but for the most part I've found country people to be very intelligent and even ingenious. When I need a solution to a tough problem, I ask a farmer for help before I ask my dad who's an engineer.


This is very true. I've met city people who didn't even know the difference between a screw driver and a wrench. Sure they may be able to tell you that you that new great piece of machinary. Afterall they've got a degree in sales and marketing, but let that machine have any problems. They're going to the back room to talk to the guy that went to trade school to get it running again.



kirkmcquest said:


> All my friends who live in the city are policemen, firefighters, construction workers, electricians, ems and etc.. These are do-ers, who deal with situations everyday that many non-city people have not imagined in their worst nightmares. If you think they are going to roll over and die because the supermarket shelves are empty you are kidding yourself and you are underestimating the competition.....a rookie mistake.


A lot of country people do the jobs you mentioned, and I mean a lot. So from that stand point I'd say that they're pretty well balanced. A lot of country people don't have the money or refuse to pay someone for something that they can do themselves. So a lot of them are their own construction worker and do to the inevitable farm accident from time to time, a lot are their own EMS too.




KimTN said:


> Well, there will be some city folks that have the means to survive and some country folks that have the means to survive. Stating that one group is so much smarter, stronger, whatever is kind of arrogant. I would not want to take on some backwoods hick in the swamps with all my advanced degrees and military training. People are smart in their own environments and situations. Don't ever underestimate your opponent. A lot of very educated individuals have moved out in rural areas because they feel that it will give them the advantage if things go bad. I would not put down my less educated neighbors because most of them are down right clever. There is something to the saying that a country boy will survive. And I wouldn't try to take his stuff either.


Very true. Just think about Vietnam. You'd that that the world superpower would have no problem running over a 3rd world country. Didn't happen.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

I don't usually post in these discussions because I don't consider myself an expert by any stretch of the imagination but sometimes I get tired of the "all city folks will turn into zombies and I have a years worth of preps, am hunkered down in my bunker and will be one of the few to survive the storm". Underestimating your enemy is one of the cardinal sins of battle, no?

You (no one in particular, I don't know all your backgrounds) may be ex or current military, many years of service, very knowledgeable in weapons and tactics, have a zillion rounds of ammunition and are ready to defend your position. My question is, what if you were attacked by a dozen people just like you? I know quite a few Americans and nearly every one of them know a couple dozen military or ex military people and most of them live in a city. Are military personnell who live in the city less competent than those who live in the country? Of course not! I'm not poking a stick at military people, I respect what you do, I"m just trying to say that not everyone in cities are future foot-dragging zombie material. I know there are ex military people across all levels of society, from the down-and-out guy on the street corner to high powered executives, you never know that the guy or girl standing next to you is a vet.

If you want to talk logistics, that's different. I think that just from the sheer number of people in the cities, many will just be drowned out in the stampede. However, it doesn't mean there aren't many tough, skilled, competent people living in the city.

Again, I'm not knocking the military or prepping, I'm trying to steer this ship around to the prepping way of life and I thank the military for what you do, I just think that if your planning for an attack, you should be planning for someone coming along who is quite possibly as good or better than you and in greater numbers, not gleefully mowing down large numbers of mindless zombies. That's just the impression I get here sometimes.

Hope that makes sense...:grin:


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## Usingmyrights (Jan 10, 2011)

No offence to the military, but just because someone was or is military it doesn't mean that they know what they're doing. The first injury at the gun range in my academy class was self inflicted from a guy recently out of the Marines. We had another guy who liked to run his mouth (I think it was little mans syndrome in his case). When it came time to redman (fighting in the ring for X amount of time. Full contact and if you lock up or go down the clock stops until you're going at it again) he said he couldn't because he was hurt. He didn't complain of any injuries up to this point, but he didn't want to have to face anyone in a toe to toe conflict. There's the other extreme as. People who learned anf continued their education from the military, but those are in the minority from what I've seen.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

wyld thang said:


> Well, yeah, of course those poor Afghanis "cave" to the Taliban when the Taliban grabs one son, slits his throat, throws a daughter into the truck never to be seen again, then grabs another kid, holds the knife to his throat and _then_ says do or die.
> 
> Sorry, I always laugh at people who laugh at Mad Max. They don't realize, nor have an appreciation for just what a thin line separates anybody from peace or mayhem.



I've seen some things (through briefings) that the Taliban have done that are even more horrific than that!

I shudder to think what Americans can do if we devolve into lawlessness as we are a crafty bunch that have grown up on violent video games and media. We can be particularly cruel and vicious in so many creative ways.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

I just used the military as an example because there are a lot of them out there. You could extend that to include police, ETF, firefighters, etc. or just your average Joe Citizen who may be a lot tougher and more skilled than you think. My point was just to not underestimate your enemy.

I have dealt with the Canadian military here a little and most personnelle that I have dealt with have been great people and very competent. Anyone who has completed basic training has a huge advantage over someone like me, not to mention battle experienced troops. There are bad apples in any group but I wouldn't want to tangle with anyone with military experience who had a problem with me!


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

Truckinguy said:


> ...... Underestimating your enemy is one of the cardinal sins of battle, no?....


Are we starting to think of our fellow American citizens as the enemy?

Which relative are we willing to shoot when they come to our door looking for help?


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

Truckinguy said:


> ....I wouldn't want to tangle with anyone with military experience who had a problem with me!



The biggest thing about military experience that I have found is that you are untrained in the ways you have been brought up by family and society.

We all grow up learning that we have to be nice to each other.

In the military, we learn to shoot at human-shaped targets and to to be aggressive to the guy next to you - who just happens to be your room mate!

As a young enlisted, I had to be willing to knock an officer on his butt who was a half dozens ranks above me! Outside of training, you know that would land you in the stockade.

Law enforcement is the same way. No hesitation on pulling that trigger on another human being. Otherwise, you're just shooting at a circle on a piece of paper.

So, going to my previous post, I guess you have to think of your fellow American Citizen as the enemy.

But I'd rather not.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

BillHoo said:


> Are we starting to think of our fellow American citizens as the enemy?
> 
> Which relative are we willing to shoot when they come to our door looking for help?


I would say that there are some "fellow American citizens" I think of as the enemy. For example, folks who come nosing around thinking they are going to set up a meth lab in one of our barns, etc. So yeah, if "fellow Americans" decided they were going to come on our place and take from us by force.... I would consider them an enemy.

As far as relatives, quite a few I would welcome with open arms. Some I might give a helping hand and send them on their way. There are a few I would classify as mad dogs - I'd probably give them some kind of warning but I wouldn't trust them an inch.

Mike


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Truckinguy said:


> My question is, what if you were attacked by a dozen people just like you?


I think you are making somewhat of a leap of faith that it would be one lone homesteader facing a dozen.

I figure that by the time we had a gathering of the clan we would have around 3 dozen adults (including teens) comfortable with weapons. Amazing how folks have standardized on calibers and gauges. 

Add in neighbors that are of a similar mindset and then you might rethink about the numbers. Granted, a company sized body of experienced folks might come along with heavy weapons...... on the other hand, an asteroid might hit..... how far do you go in prepping becomes the question.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Even if it IS one lone homesteader facing a dozen, are those dozen prepared to die to steal someone else's food? Most homesteaders I know are willing to die to keep what's theirs.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I would think teritorial knowledge would be a large factor in such a skirmish.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I would think territorial knowledge would be a large factor in such a skirmish.


Yes indeed.

I know most of the woodlots, canals, roads and swamp trails within a few miles of here 

I know where the "funnels" are that will force them to pass through one specific spot unless they are willing to proceed through water with just what they can carry on their backs


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

The more I think about it, the less I think very many city people are going to make it 100 miles or more in any relatively short amount of time (if at all). 

Highways and roads would quickly turn into parking lots. Lots of vehicles running out of fuel.

If it's the winter I would expect the vast majority of people to be unprepared to deal with cold.

Mike


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## cnichols (Jan 5, 2010)

BillHoo said:


> Are we starting to think of our fellow American citizens as the enemy?
> 
> Which relative are we willing to shoot when they come to our door looking for help?


Dictionary.com defines an enemy as ...

*enÂ·eÂ·my&#8194; &#8194;/&#712;&#603;n&#601;mi/ Show Spelled [en-uh-mee] Show IPA noun,plural-mies, adjective 
ânoun
1.a person who feels hatred for, fosters harmful designs against, or engages in antagonistic activities against another; an adversary or opponent. 
*

So yes, I think someone who is coming to steal my preps "fosters harmful designs against, or engages in antagonistic activities against" me and mine. So yes, that would make them an enemy regardless of WHAT nationality they are! :duel:

And who said the person doing such would be a relative? Although I'd certainly give a horse woopin :bdh: to any relative who thought they could do such a thing.


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## Truckinguy (Mar 8, 2008)

> Are we starting to think of our fellow American citizens as the enemy?


I think the context we are talking about here, homesteader vs zombie, would indicate an enemy situation, would it not? Would zombies not also be fellow citizens?

I understand about the gathering of clans, territorial knowledge, preparing for dozens of scenarios that likely won't happen and dying to protect your homestead. There are a lot of factors involved in a conflict, my point was simply that I believe there could be more people of a better calibre escaping the cities than some think. I think many people don't give city dwellers enough credit, sure there are a lot of people who think meat comes on a styrofoam tray but I think there are as high a percentage of smart, tough, innovative people living in the city as live in the country. I also believe, as I stated before, the sheer number of people in the city would be the biggest problem most people would face, not that they were lacking in skills or intelligence.

I believe many would chance death to get some food. Hunger is a powerful motivator.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Where do you think "SSS" comes from?


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

But it seems the vast majority (here) assumes a wave of people coming from the cities with intent to steal their preps.

If your 'stead is in the line of travel, you are bound to have people just passing through. Many may have had to flee with nothing but the clothes on their backs. Or maybe their preps and homestead had been razed by natural disaster or firebombing. They're too depressed pondering their own wretched situation to consider robbing someone else.
---
Please, my family are just passing through on our way to the colony at Pacific Playland. We haven't had any food or water in 5 days. Might we get some water from your horse trough and be on our way?
---
I dunno. What is unsettling of this thread and other threads like it is that good Christian values have died and been replaced with self-survival. If that is the case, prepping is useless as we will eventually all succumb to distrust, pre-formed prejudices, lawlessness and the drive to survive at all costs.

What are we willing to give up to keep what we deem precious?













cnichols said:


> Dictionary.com defines an enemy as ...
> 
> *enÂ·eÂ·my&#8194; &#8194;/&#712;&#603;n&#601;mi/ Show Spelled [en-uh-mee] Show IPA noun,plural-mies, adjective
> &#8211;noun
> ...


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I hope all of you realize that this thread is an exercise in EXTREME thinking and such.

In reality, this forum is mostly about surviving job layoffs, floods, illness, inflation, etc. 

And then about 10% or so true End of the World as ALL know it.

This thread is in some manner, similar to watching the SyFy channel with the Asteroid coming at us, or that 10.9 earthquake. There are small chances of them, and doesn't hurt to exercise the mind on what if's. But for every Asteroid, EMP, etc - there are 100's of job lay offs, broken legs, illnesses, floods and snow storms that we can, and most do, prepare for.

But, as I've said before, this thread sure shows what people are made of.


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## cnichols (Jan 5, 2010)

For the record I wasn't "assuming" everyone is out to "steal" my preps, HOWEVER, if they are, then YES, they are my enemy. 

I in no way shape or form indicated that I would consider someone "passing through" an enemy that deserved a horse whooping or worse. TBH I'm a softy when it comes to people in distress. My DH on the other hand, can be a real hardnose. I think "if" the situation required a "female touch" I would be the one to handle it, with him standing at my side. However, in a true zombipocolipse all bets are off


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

> zombipocolipse


Great word.


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## cnichols (Jan 5, 2010)

LoL Thanks Angie .. I saw it somewhere (can't remember where) but I think it was spelled differently. 

Prepping for "charity" is as important as prepping for ourselves. Will I give food to everyone who comes begging? Probably not. But, as I said, I'm a softy so I'm sure I'll end up helping out more folks then my DH would like.


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## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

I'm glad we're floating back down to Earth.

The stresses were giving me flashbacks to when I was on my way to Iraq in 2004 and I was listening to a group of young troops bragging about how, "I'm going to KILL SO MANY OF THOSE IRAQIS!!"

I intervened and told them, "Hey troop. We not here to kill Iraqis. We're here to help them. We're here to stop INSURGENTS."

They looked at me like I had two heads and walked off.

It's too easy to ratchet things up to high levels when we're on the internet. Especially when we project our fears into a thread.
----------------------------------------------------

LUKE: There's something not right here.

Yoda sits on a large root, poking his Gimer Stick into the
dirt.

LUKE: I feel cold, death.

YODA: That place...is strong with the dark side of the Force. A domain
of evil it is. In you must go.

LUKE: What's in there?

YODA: Only what you take with you.

Luke looks warily between the tree and Yoda. He starts to
strap on his weapon belt.

YODA: Your weapons...you will not need them.

Luke gives the tree a long look, than shakes his head "no."
Yoda shrugs. Luke reaches up to brush aside some hanging vines
and enters the tree.

INTERIOR: DAGOBAH -- TREE CAVE

Luke moves into the almost total darkness of the wet and
slimy cave. The youth can barely make out the edge of the
passage. Holding his lit saber before him, he sees a lizard
crawling up the side of the cave and a snake wrapped around
the branches of a tree. Luke draws a deep breath, then pushes
deeper into the cave.
The space widens around him, but he feels that rather than
sees it. His sword casts the only light as he peers into the
darkness. It is very quiet here.
Then, a loud hiss! Darth Vader appears across the
blackness, illuminated by his own just-ignited laser sword.
Immediately, he charges Luke, saber held high. He is upon the
youth in seconds, but Luke sidesteps perfectly and slashes at
Vader with his sword.
Vader is decapitated. His helmet-encased head flies from
his shoulders as his body disappears into the darkness. The
metallic banging of the helmet fills the cave as Vader's head
spins and bounces, smashes on the floor, and finally stops.
For an instant it rests on the floor, then it cracks
vertically. The black helmet and breath mask fall away to
reveal...Luke's head.
Across the space, the standing Luke gasps at the sight,
wide-eyed in terror.
The decapitated head fades away, as in a vision.

EXTERIOR: DAGOBAH -- CAVE -- DUSK

Meanwhile, Yoda sits on the root, calmly leaning on his
Gimer Stick.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

zompocalypse.

[ame]http://www.google.com/search?complete=1&hl=en&source=hp&q=zombipocolipse+&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=[/ame]

Zombiepocalypse:

[ame]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&complete=1&q=zombiepocalypse.&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=g-sx1&aql=f&oq=[/ame]


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## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

BillHoo said:


> But it seems the vast majority (here) assumes a wave of people coming from the cities with intent to steal their preps.


I don't think the vast majority assume there will be a wave of people coming to steal their preps. The premise of this particular thread was along the lines of, "What if that does happen?" From what I've read here, the vast majority think it would never happen for a variety of reasons. But if it did, most feel confident in their abilities to defend themselves.



> What is unsettling of this thread and other threads like it is that good Christian values have died and been replaced with self-survival.


I agree with that to a point. But I think many many people here would give generously to people in need, IF they ASK, rather than trying to STEAL or take it by force. Also, I know some spend a lot of energy trying to help other people be prepared so they don't have to be dependent in bad times. I personally want everyone to be prepared so I won't have to face the situation of people coming to me for help, because I would probably give away every last bit of food I have and end up starving myself.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Billhoo,

The fact that people say they don't intend to let others take their posessions does not automatically equal they don't intend to provide assistance.

While you may have been there to help Iraqis, I doubt you would let random Iraqis wander into your living quarters.

People have to make decisions and choices. Choosing what to give and how much is no different than the decision to attempt to prevent others taking by force.

Mike


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

Truckinguy said:


> I think the context we are talking about here, homesteader vs zombie, would indicate an enemy situation, would it not? Would zombies not also be fellow citizens?
> 
> I understand about the gathering of clans, territorial knowledge, preparing for dozens of scenarios that likely won't happen and dying to protect your homestead. There are a lot of factors involved in a conflict, my point was simply that I believe there could be more people of a better calibre escaping the cities than some think. I think many people don't give city dwellers enough credit, sure there are a lot of people who think meat comes on a styrofoam tray but I think there are as high a percentage of smart, tough, innovative people living in the city as live in the country. I also believe, as I stated before, the sheer number of people in the city would be the biggest problem most people would face, not that they were lacking in skills or intelligence.
> 
> I believe many would chance death to get some food. Hunger is a powerful motivator.


Basically the point I've been making. There are many here who are self-delusional into thinking that city people are dummies who are going to turn into desperate, easy to kill 'zombies' when the supermarkets shut down.

I do go one step further in being outspoken about my personal experience with both city and country people. I was born in the 'country', my parents later moved to the city, and I moved to the 'country' when I became an adult. So I know lots of people from both ends. It is my personal opinion, and I know it annoys some of you ( but if it makes you better prepared then so be it), but most city people are just quicker. They hustle, they work together better, and they generally get things done faster in my experience. I hate to say it, but about 50% of my 'country' friends from back home are alcoholics. I know what happens to people when there is not enough stimulation and challenges, you get soft, you get slow, and some turn to booze.

Guys I know with military training are mostly cops and they are encountering hostile situations all the time, they are sharper. Sorry, but your average 'country cop' does very little beyond writing tickets. The city guys have certain advantages...in a combat/hostile situation. Thats all I'm saying, I'm not saying that they can necessarily grow a garden as well as you.

Remember we are debating the extreme, hypothetical example of 'zombies' from the city coming to get your stuff. I hope some of you aren't taking these debating points personally. This is really just an abstract mental exercise as far as I'm concerned.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

I dunno, when you live in cougar/bear/feral dog country you keep pretty sharp. When the cops are more than 30 minutes away you think twice about answering the door naked when it's someone you don't know. When the ambulance is at least an hour or more away because they can't find your house because Google has it wrong, you know you'd better have basic first aid skills and be able to keep your head on and DEAL. Or when the power goes out for out for a few weeks in a storm because your antiquated rural wire is last on the list because the road crews are all out fixing the city peoples power FIRST, you know you better know how to DEAL. I could go on and on, and I'm sure many people here can give account of situations DEALING with fire, nasty predators, bad injuries with broken bones and lots of blood and body parts cut off, using various kinds of power tools and heavy equipment, building something, fixing well pumps and vehicles, welding stuff, dealing with animals, killing animals--things the AVERAGE city person never even thinks about dealing with on their own(nevermind even getting themselves into such situations)--they just call the cops, a plumber, the firemen, the emts to do it all for them.

And comparing people with professional TRAINING(as a "city person") as more responsive to hostile situation than the average country person is not a meaningful comparison. 

The average country cop writes tickets cuz the country boy gits r done. Bag n tag. (that is an attempt at a joke btw)

(Now I have plenty of suburban/urban friends who could handle the country life just fine--the important point there is that all of them GREW UP being raised more self sufficient. Economics places them working in the city, they would all rather live in the country. They are capable in the woods. But they sure as heck aren't the AVERAGE city person.)


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## kirkmcquest (Oct 21, 2010)

wyld thang said:


> I dunno, when you live in cougar/bear/feral dog country you keep pretty sharp. When the cops are more than 30 minutes away you think twice about answering the door naked when it's someone you don't know. When the ambulance is at least an hour or more away because they can't find your house because Google has it wrong, you know you'd better have basic first aid skills and be able to keep your head on and DEAL. Or when the power goes out for out for a few weeks in a storm because your antiquated rural wire is last on the list because the road crews are all out fixing the city peoples power FIRST, you know you better know how to DEAL. I could go on and on, and I'm sure many people here can give account of situations DEALING with fire, nasty predators, bad injuries with broken bones and lots of blood and body parts cut off, using various kinds of power tools and heavy equipment, building something, fixing well pumps and vehicles, welding stuff, dealing with animals, killing animals--things the AVERAGE city person never even thinks about dealing with on their own(nevermind even getting themselves into such situations)--they just call the cops, a plumber, the firemen, the emts to do it all for them.
> 
> And comparing people with professional TRAINING(as a "city person") as more responsive to hostile situation than the average country person is not a meaningful comparison.
> 
> ...


Yeah...keep telling yourself that. I hate to be the guy who bursts everyone's bubble so I'll leave it alone.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

well, due to a larger than normal amount of craziness popping out; I think this has run it's course.

Angie


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