# Peat Moss and Neutralizing Pee Odour



## ladysown (May 3, 2008)

Not sure if I'm phrasing this question the best way.

As some of you know I house my rabbits in a portable garage.

To protect the garage I put a heavy tarp over top.

The positives is that it adds an layer of insulation, it protects against wind damage (lifting and object damage tossed against it)

the negatives that it stops a lot of ventilation.

So... that means 
1. I get condensation. I handle that by a thick layer of shavings down the middle of the tent, raked up every three-four day to get mould, dropped hay etc all cleaned up. Without the shavings I get mould that I have to dig out and that leads to unsafe walking.

2. last year to got HORRID ammonia/pee smell - like I'd have to come out of the tent and bathe before even being remotely presentable. had rabbits get sneezes...and two get pneumonia. I wish to prevent that occurance this year.

I CANNOT afford at this time to do a fan, figure out a venting tube etc. 

SO.... To prevent that this year I put plastic down on all drop trays that lead to the gutters. VERY carefully placed the racks so that that pee/water spillage would all flow into catch buckets. I've also started using peat moss in the catch buckets. Tried it on the drop racks/gutters but found that worthless.

HOW much do I need to put in the buckets? I'm finding it a challenge to not overuse, and to not underuse and wonder if anyone has discovered that correct formulation? 

*So I suppose my question could be phrased as: how much peat moss neutralizes 4 cups of pee/liquid? *


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Good question... but I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you, Ladysown. I think you will have to experiment. I'd try an inch of peat moss in the bucket and see how long before you can smell ammonia. If it happens before you are ready to dump the buckets, try adding more peat moss. You may also find that a mix of peat moss and wood shavings works. I haven't priced peat moss lately, but it may be a bit cheaper to use a mix. Hope you get it working well. On mild days - or even cold still ones - opening the doors should make a big difference. My rabbits are in the goose house so the oversized pop-hole for my geese is open all day long. It faces south, so it is usually quite sheltered but does allow an air exchange.


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

What a challenge! Isn't there something not quite so ....physical and bulky that could neutralize the urine? Like those enzyme products they use to clean carpets of dog urine? Peroxide? Vinegar? Listerine? Odo-Ban? I don't have any experience with this but seems like so much labor and expense to use peat moss. Can you compost it with all that urine in it? Let's see- Rabbit urine is neutral or towards alkaline so you would need an acid to neutralize but still need enzymes to eat up the stink makers...One person I know that has garage buns used some kind of wood pellets. Don't know what they are called. My daughter used Odo-ban on puppy problems. Could you splash some in each bucket? Do you have stores like Sam's there? They sell it in a gallon concentrate.

B~


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## trinityoaks (Sep 17, 2008)

ladysown said:


> So I suppose my question could be phrased as: how much peat moss neutralizes 4 cups of pee/liquid?


I use square, plastic poo pans under my rabbit cages (36"x36"x about3", one per 8-10lb rabbit), and all the poo/pee go into those. We put a layer of peat moss about 2" deep in the poo pans, and that will absorb all the pee/odors for about a week. We empty the poo pans into our square-foot gardens and our rose beds. Eventually I would like to add earthworms to the operation, as well.

Not a direct answer to your question, but hopefully you can calculate what you need from that. For a bucket such as you are using, I would probably fill the bucket to about 4-6", or to whatever depth would collect in a week plus 2-3".

I don't worry at all about using "too much", because it's all going into the garden (1/3 of the planting mix in my square-foot gardens is peat moss anyway, and another 1/3 is compost). I do "fluff it up" somewhat before putting it into the poo pans, so that I don't have any hard chunks of peat moss that wouldn't absorb as well.


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## ladysown (May 3, 2008)

I empty buckets daily (actually twice a day).

I learned that from my dad with the cattle/goats etc...clean them as often as you can. Keeps them healthier in the long run.

I do know that it has helped. and I'm probably over-thinking this. I dislike waste and I feel overall that I'm wasting the peat moss if I use too much of it. But I suppose if I think of it all as compost then.... it's not wasted one way or the other is it?


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## a7736100 (Jun 4, 2009)

If weight isn't a problem you can use soil.


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## trinityoaks (Sep 17, 2008)

ladysown said:


> I empty buckets daily (actually twice a day).


Then an inch or two is probably plenty.



> I dislike waste and I feel overall that I'm wasting the peat moss if I use too much of it. But I suppose if I think of it all as compost then.... it's not wasted one way or the other is it?


Exactly!


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## trinityoaks (Sep 17, 2008)

a7736100 said:


> If weight isn't a problem you can use soil.


Unless the soil has a lot of composted material in it, I would think it wouldn't absorb either the pee or the odors very well. Our soil here is mostly clay, which wouldn't work well at all. That's why I use peat moss (with bunny poo) in my rose beds, to break up the clay.


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## MaggieJ (Feb 6, 2006)

If you are emptying the buckets that often, Ladysown, I'm surprised you have an odour problem at all. Briza's suggestion of vinegar is worth trying. Just the cheapest white vinegar you can get. I'd try it in one bucket on its own and in another with some peat moss. 

The other way to attack this is through the rabbits' feed. Some brands of pellets have the plant Yucca added to them to help with urine odours. I don't know more about it than that but it is supposed to help. Other people use the apple cider vinegar in the rabbits' drinking water or a touch of vanilla extract. You may have to try a combination of methods.

Peat moss combined with rabbit urine is great organic matter for your gardens. So it is never really a waste. But you do want to neutralize those odours for your health and that of the rabbits.


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## pookshollow (Aug 22, 2005)

We have a woodworker in a nearby village who always has bags of sawdust/wood shavings available for free. (It's great, he takes all our empty feed bags to put kindling wood in, as we can't take them back to the feed mill) Perhaps you could find someone like that near you? It would help extend the peat moss. 

The other option would be to get a bag of Stable Boy/Stall Dri at your local feed mill. That stuff is supposed to neutralize the ammonia in horse stalls (do you know how much urine one horse can produce? ).


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## o&itw (Dec 19, 2008)

In my opinion, the odor is only an indication of the problem, not the problem itself. I think you must still address the ventilation problem, even if the odor problem is solved. It is rather easy to create ventilation, you need some small openings at the floor of the structure, and another small opening in the top of the structure at the other end. It is actually best to have small openings at both ends. As I understand it, you would rather not make those holes.

I have to make an assumption that your "portable garage" is similiar to the ones we have here. That being a metal framed structure with a roof, metal coming a foot or two down on the sides with them mostly being open, and no ends. If that is the case, have you thrown a large tarp over the whole thing?
If it is, one of the ways you can vent is to cut a hole at the top of each gable end and sew a tri-angle of material over the hole, think up-side-down pocket, if you make the pocket piece a little larger, it will billow open slight on the lee ward side of the structure (the end on the wind side will press shut) you will still need some place for the air to get in, but unless you have it sealed well, or get a lot of snow, the air will seep in around the bottom. The more and smaller venting areas you have at the bottom the less draft (draught for you Canadians  ) you will have for a given air circulation. 

My shed has small holes all along the upper walls, and the windows are those jalouise things they used to have in mobile homes 40 years ago, so they leak a lot of air. While the building is only a few degrees above the outside temperature (some people's are 8 or 10) it is well ventilated with no drafts.
My personal opinion is that a humid building is much more of a health threat than one that is a few degrees cooler.


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

If you have any fan in the house at all, you could use that...just turn it so it exhausts instead of brings in. I would think near the floor....

Peat moss does help with the odor. I use that in our indoor rabbitry. You could also us the odor fighting cat litter if you can buy that. That stuff works extremely well, and since you're just taking to a compost pile, it should work fine. It's basically just clay.

Vinegar rinsing all pails would help tremendously. White vinegar is something like a dollar a gallon here. Cut with water and sprayed on the plastic it should help a lot. Some of the odor is probably clinging to the plastic that it travels down. 

Pine shavings would help out a lot, too. Amazing how big a change it makes in a stable when you switch from straw to pine shavings.


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## wofarm (Nov 30, 2009)

The real problem is air exchange. You need to open the thing up or install a exhaust fan. You could end up with real problems if not corrected. poor air exchange is THE most prevelant problem I see in rabbitries everywhere I go.


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## klickitat (Dec 26, 2008)

wofarm said:


> The real problem is air exchange. You need to open the thing up or install a exhaust fan. You could end up with real problems if not corrected. poor air exchange is THE most prevelant problem I see in rabbitries everywhere I go.


+1

You need fresh and clean air for healthy animals.


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## ladysown (May 3, 2008)

well....i need to figure that out then....but the question is how.

My portable garages are fully enclosed tarped steel framed portables. Over that I've put another tarp. 










They are tarped over my shed as well. this gives me a 'breezeway". And keeps my feed accessible in our cold winters. I have no problems in the old tent. the ground is solidly dry.










this the old tent (last years) mostly used for storage and my isolation area.








this is the new tent, built over well rained on ground which doesn't help. The side next to the shed is zippered and left open during the day. The section in the middle is where I get in. (I have to duck to get in). I tied the tarp that goes over fairly high to that hopefully I'll get air in underneath. I doubt that I'll have problems next year as the ground will get rock hard over the summer next year.

Not really sure what else I can do to make it more airy.


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## DevonGlen (Aug 10, 2009)

Have you ever tried stall dry? It works really well to neutralize ammonia, I used peat moss in the drop trays last winter but this year stall dry completely blew it out the window in terms of effectiveness. I had a demo done were I had pure ammonia put on my finger (Talk about smelly) and when I put it in stall dry the smell was completely gone (Thank God). It also helps compost the waste which is a big bonus.


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## ladysown (May 3, 2008)

so can stall dry be used to help dry a wet area?


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## klickitat (Dec 26, 2008)

2 ideas that might help.

#1 putting an old tire under the tarp on edge on both ends so that you have air flow at the base of the building.

#2 build a graduated trough under the cages that can catch all the waste and run it outside of your shed. Build a pit to catch the waste on the outside of the shed. You could build slope sheeting of wood and coat it with plastic if funds are tight.


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## ladysown (May 3, 2008)

hey! that gave me an idea. I have some leftover gutter. I could put that under the edges of the tarps to air flow. that might help. that and perhaps at night when the lights are off, I could run an old fan out there to help move the air around a bit to hopefully help dry things out a bit. think that might help? or am I still stuck because I don't have a opening up high?


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## Devoville (Mar 23, 2009)

Ammonia is heavier than air. Lower openings will be a better help than just high openings. The higher openings are more useful in the heat. However its hard to control draft-wise.


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## wofarm (Nov 30, 2009)

To achieve good air flow, cool air should come from the lower area and then out near the top. Only opening the bottom is not gonna solve your problem. The rabbits respirate, they breathe out moist air. even if your pans were kept more dry, you could still have a moisture problem. The smell is just warning you of the real trouble. Can you cut down, like cull out the worst) on your herd size. Thats the 2nd biggest trouble area I see visiting rabbitries, way to many culls, sitting around eating and repirating! Every herd can be cut by 50% and all would benefit. Its not about how many, its about how good is what ya got.


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## Briza (Aug 11, 2009)

The little parachute pocket idea is a great one. A vent with a cover. You can just do it with adhesive backed velcro no sewing so you don't have to take it down/off! Maybe one of those tiny battery run fans that are used up in the tops of greenhouses to move the air would work at the peak? You do need top and bottom airflow. 
That is a monster tarp! I know you would hate to poke a hole in it but I can see how it could get plenty humid and odoriferous in there! Let us know what you decide to do and how it works. You could move down here where it's only cold enough for them to grow nice thick coats! Of course we can't breed during summer...
B~


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## o&itw (Dec 19, 2008)

I would hestitate to cut a hole in a tarp also, especially if you are using it for something else in the summer, however, I do not see another way. The air in the shed is warmer (and therefore lighter) than the air on the outside due to the heat the rabbits produce, and any light that makes its way through the tarps. Warm air wants to rise. If there are no openings toward the top, there is no way for the stagnant air to escape. Think of a glass turned upside down in a container of water. Openings on two sides would work, but they would need to be large enough, that they would cause a serious draft.
Small openings at the top work best (the air has to have a place to enter at the bottom) this causes a gradual flow of air. The upside down "pockets" on the gable ends will work. You can sew, velcro, tape, anything that will work, but make them adjustable.

An elderly gentleman who smoked cigars told me that the way he tested , was to smoke a cigar in the shed (shelter, hoop house, etc) and that should take 10 minutes for all the smoke to escape. I don't suggest that you smoke in you rabbitry, but it will give you an idea of the proper flow. It doesn't take a great deal of air, but enough for the temperature. The warmer it is, the more water/fumes are evaporating from the floor, and the more airflow is needed, so one doesn't need the airflow at 10F that they would at 35F.


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## ladysown (May 3, 2008)

it's the humidity that makes things hard. If i can figure that out then things would go easier. It's only four months of the year....as I open it up as early as I can in the year. and on lovely days I open up as much as I can. makes life challenging at times, but makes it better for the buns.


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## Terry W (Mar 10, 2006)

I have a set up similar to what you describe, and no real odor issue, without daily waste removal--I permit the waste to get pretty deep, as the heat generated by it's decomposition help keep water from freezing, and yes, I do sometimes have an issue with the 'indoor rain'

My I use peatmoss, mixed with wood shavings or sawdust, and even DE to absorb and neutralize the urine. Folks, 'Stall Dry' *is* DE. For best performance, the DE is used in a light layer under the peat and wood shaving mixture in the dropping pans. Under the cages that have the droppings fall directly on the soil, I occasionally sprinkle DE, then a thin layer of the mix after raking out. Of course, many of my rabbits seem to enjoy pushing their straw out the bottom of the cages, and having it pile up on the floor. Iuse the same type of bedding mix in my chicken coop, and it seems to work equally well there. For moisture absorption, I lay newspaper across the top of the cages on those nights that I know it will rain under the tarp. I have 'raised' the floor under the tarp by permitting straw, hay, and composted material to build up. Last summer, I even spread a whole bale of peat outside the tarp, on the uphill side, to prevent surface water from flowing through the tarped area-- it works real well, and I now have stable footing...


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## ladysown (May 3, 2008)

terry i can use those ideas too! thanks!


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## byexample (Aug 28, 2009)

I would expect that any absorbent material should help mitigate the smell. I'd expect that sawdust would do well for this. You could also try adding pulverized charcoal to your peat moss / wood chips / sawdust.

I'd also expect that you might be able to hang up little bags of charcoal to help absorb odors -- I'm getting ready to try this myself.

I'd be tempted to try to find a way to drain the urine to the outside of the shed. Sounds like you already have things setup with catch buckets... could the buckets be moved to the outside somehow?

I'm somewhat surprised that you get an ammonia smell with changing your catch buckets twice a day. Our rabbits are in an insulated space with stacking cages and pans. I don't get any ammonia smell as long as I empty them every other day during the winter when the barn is closed up most of the time.

Best of luck and thanks for the post. I hadn't considered using peat moss... that's a good option to file away for future use.


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## ladysown (May 3, 2008)

I don't have a lot of ammonia smell yet...last year at this time I didn't either...but by mid-January it was very distinct. And by end of January I had two rabbits with pneumonia. I want to problem solve now before it's an issue. I cleaned up just as much then as I do now. I think with the high humidity the ammonia gets in the air or something. At least that's what I'm thinking.

BUT I've done things differently this year too with better placed catch pans, plastic covering the drop boards and such like.

I do know that adding the peat moss to the catch pans means I don't have to hold my breathe emptying them anymore.  I think to stretch my peat moss I'll add some shavings to the catch pans as well...make it less fluid as well, since right now the peat moss sometimes floats on top.

i don't know what I can do with the humidity as cutting a hole in the portable garage or in my tarps is a no go. Hubby says I don't think so hun. Cut a hole and that weakens the tarp and when we get our nasty spring winds, what will prevent the tarp from ripping where the hole is? me thinks that he has a point.  I'm going to put vent holes in the bottom (using my leftover gutters), keep the doors open as much as possible and use a fan to see if that will help.


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## trinityoaks (Sep 17, 2008)

ladysown said:


> I think to stretch my peat moss I'll add some shavings to the catch pans as well...make it less fluid as well, since right now the peat moss sometimes floats on top.


You should know that the wood shavings will NOT decompose as rapidly as the peat moss and the rabbit poo, and they will take nitrogen OUT of the soil while they decompose.

How much pee collects in the buckets in half a day? I wouldn't think it would be enough to make the peat moss float.

The peat moss must be really dried out if it's not absorbing the pee readily. I keep the bag closed until I use it so that it doesn't dry out completely.


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## ladysown (May 3, 2008)

well between using crocks, and having 21 cages of bunnies I get a fair bit in them actually. and yup, it floats.


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## Terry W (Mar 10, 2006)

If urine is soaked into the wood shavings, the ammonia (NH3) provides a buffer of Nitrogen (N) so that nitrogen loss from soil is minimized. It was stated in an article on fertilizing crops, that if a person smells ammonia after fertilizing his fields, he is LOSING Nitrogen-- thereby losing his cash investment in the process..
Also, shavings and sawdust that are already in a state of decomposition will not deplete soil nitrogen.

And dry peat moss-- yeah, it is like a sponge-- it works better when it is damp...

Terry 




trinityoaks said:


> You should know that the wood shavings will NOT decompose as rapidly as the peat moss and the rabbit poo, and they will take nitrogen OUT of the soil while they decompose.
> 
> How much pee collects in the buckets in half a day? I wouldn't think it would be enough to make the peat moss float.
> 
> The peat moss must be really dried out if it's not absorbing the pee readily. I keep the bag closed until I use it so that it doesn't dry out completely.


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

ladysown said:


> I dislike waste and I feel overall that I'm wasting the peat moss if I use too much of it. But I suppose if I think of it all as compost then.... it's not wasted one way or the other is it?


Long years of animal husbandry have taught me...

If you aren't using enough bedding that you feel a little as if you're wasting it - Then you aren't using enough!!

So it sounds to me like you're doing it right! And yes, it all goes into the garden - or you can sell it to those looking to improve their gardens - or you can use it to raise worms - etc. So no _real_ waste.

But you should use an amount and clean it often enough that when you clean it there is still some bedding that is not wet/dirty then that's the right amount.

Also, if you dust a little lime in there and wash out the pails with a solution of vinegar once a week or so that will help smells to.


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