# Slowly Going Solar



## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

We have been off grid going on six years. Used gas all this time to charge our battery bank. Could never afford solar in a big way. Do have six of the 45w sets from harbor freight. They don't do much for actual power making. We still use electric like we are on grid. I have looked in to solar for years but the upfront costs are so high. 

Well I bit the bullet yesterday and ordered four 300 watt Renogy panels. Today I am ordering the Midnite solar classic 150 charge controller, breakers etc. to hook it all up. We have a large battery bank made up of a mix of AGM 2 and 12 volt batteries. Most of them are getting pretty old at this point. Hopefully they will last a few more years. They were all used when we got them. 
We are currently using a 12v system but plan to change over to 48v in the next few years. So I hope the batteries will last until after we can make the switch. I like those 2v 1,100 AH batteries. A single series string will probably be enough or more than enough. 
While it is still quite expensive to set up a solar power system it has gotten a whole lot cheaper in the last few years. But in the long run I am sure it will be cheaper than 2-3 gallons of gas a day. Which is about average for us. Sure we can go a week or two without recharging but then it takes days of continuous charging to bring them back up. So I try and charge for a while each night when its cool or cold.
I hope to be able to add four new panels every six months until we have enough. Once we have two charge controllers and eight panels it will be time to think about moving up to 48 volts. Or decide if we will need a third charge controller for the 48v system, if so then we will go ahead and get it and 4 more panels then switch to 48v the next time. This solar stuff is a little weird not sure if I have it all figured correctly. But from what I see we can only run 1200 watts on a single controller at 12v. On the other hand that same controller at 48v can handle around 4 to 5,000 watts. Boy I sure hope I have this stuff figured out right. 

Ok that was strange just got off the phone with my bank when Civic Solar tried to process the card for the charge controller and stuff my bank shut the card down. They thought it was fraud. So now I have to wait for them to unlock my card. But good to know they lookout for their customers. Once thats done all my parts will have been ordered. 

I was going to start building the mount for the panels but on second thought maybe I should wait. To many times I have built things according to the specs to find things have changed and now didn't fit. So if I wait and have the panels in hand then I know everything will fit right. 

Larry
A World Away


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Good for you Larry, and good luck.
As from the previous thread, I too am just starting out, a lot smaller steps for me right now.
Good luck!

Matt


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Adding that much solar--in steps-- your going to have to get real serious about a real battery bank soon........

Yes those big 2volt batts is an excellent way to go.......
Also too at least a 24v system.....


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

Jim-mi said:


> Adding that much solar--in steps-- your going to have to get real serious about a real battery bank soon........
> 
> Yes those big 2volt batts is an excellent way to go.......
> Also too at least a 24v system.....


Yep I just want to hold out as long as I can since we have over 4,000 AH at 12V but not enough of the 2v to make a 48v bank. If I get rid of the 2v (some of the oldest) that also cuts 2,200 amp hours out of my bank. If I am lucky they will hold out until I switch to 48v in about a year and a half or two years. Then I also have to get lucky again and get some more used ones from a battery company I know that does customer change outs every three years needed or not. They most always have some going for scrap that are three years old and never been more than load tested. I bought the last set for scrap prices and they have lasted five years. Just swapped the 12 oldest last month. (12) 134 AH AGM for about $300.00

Larry


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

When I purchased my panels, they were $5/watt! It's a lot cheaper these days..

Good luck and keep on keepin' on..


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2013)

I keep thinking that Solar should have come further in our lifetime...


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

Thanks 12vman

Traci, It does seem that way.


Using the data sheet here :
https://www.renogy-store.com/300-Watt-Solar-Panel-p/rng-300p.htm
for the panels and the string size here :
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/produ...ontroller.html#MidNiteClassicStringSizingTool
for the controller If I plugged all the numbers in right then 16 panels 8 parallel strings of 2 @ 48 volts battery bank should give me the best bang for the buck. Would you agree?

Thanks 
Larry


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

Just got tracking info for everything I ordered. According to what they sent everything will be here by friday. When I ordered I got the impression it would be well in to december before everything got here. :bandwagon: 

Larry


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

TraciInTexas said:


> I keep thinking that Solar should have come further in our lifetime...


When it got going in the 70-80's, the dream was panels at "50 cents/watt". Dropping the tax credits at the time killed the industry just as it was starting to take off.

Well, today it's down to a buck/watt, (or less) and if you factor inflation into the equation, it's WELL under 1980 "50 cent/watt".

So we have arrived at part of the goal !

Next, the "holy grail" is cheap storage for off-sun hours. When that hurdle has been scaled, you'll see solar all over the place.


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

TnAndy said:


> When it got going in the 70-80's, the dream was panels at "50 cents/watt". Dropping the tax credits at the time killed the industry just as it was starting to take off.
> 
> Well, today it's down to a buck/watt, (or less) and if you factor inflation into the equation, it's WELL under 1980 "50 cent/watt".
> 
> ...


Including shipping these panels cost me $1.06 a watt. Thats just for the panels though. Back in the 90's I had way more spendable money than I do now, in the 80's I was still a kid. Lord if I had spent all the money on solar I wasted racing 1/4 mile, I could power a small town. lol But it sure was fun and I mistakenly thought I would always have money like that. :bash:

Speaking of cheap storage maybe its time to look into other ways of storing power. Something that wont wear out like batteries do. An inertia wheel comes to mind. But talk about moving parts a several thousand pound wheel turning at XXXX rpm could get scary too.

Larry


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## Bellyman (Jul 6, 2013)

Or you could explore NiFe batteries. Taken care of, they should outlive you.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Bellyman said:


> Or you could explore NiFe batteries. Taken care of, they should outlive you.


Problem is nobody makes a solar charge controller for them so you have to have one custom made.

Some are trying to use regular (both PWM and MPPT) with them. Problem is they don't match the charge profiles needed for NiFe so they are cutting the life of them to less than lead acid batteries.

WWW


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

My panels showed up today. Renogy seems to have it together. Now I have to finish clearing the space where they are going. Still waiting on the charge controller and breaker box from civic solar.

Those of you who have built / installed your panels do you think it will be ok to mount all 4 of them on a single pole mount. What I have is a 3.5 OD iron pipe. 

Larry


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

I've got 10-175w panels on 6" pipe, and 10-245w panels on 8"....and a WHOLE bunch of concrete....










I'd think 3.5" would handle 4.

But honestly, I like the ground mount rack I used last the best. Easy to install, easy to work on the stuff on it...just a few wheelbarrow loads of concrete....just all around easier.

1.5" pipe, and 2" galvanized angle.
(Idea stolen from Solar Gary's website ! )


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## Roadking (Oct 8, 2009)

Your pics always make me drool and pull out my solar notebooks TN...
someday I'll get that far.

Matt


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Drooling is good. I did it from 1975 until 2008 when I finally started.

You just have to do a lot of wiping.


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

Nice set up TN 

I thought I lived in the hills but you've got me beat. How many kw are you charging? 

On another note what to do with my HF panels. Will it mess up any of the new stuff I'm adding if I leave them hooked up as is? Man I will be glad when I don't have to listen to a gas engine anymore.

Larry


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Larry,

Right at 11,000 watts.

andy


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

As long as you don't have to much of that 3.5" pipe above the concrete it should carry the load.
You don't want to put your "sail" too high or the flexing from the wind will eventually weaken the pipe . . not good.

My pole mounts are two 6" and one 8"----with a lot of concrete, and one ground mount.


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

Thanks Jim-mi 

I will check around see what else I can come up with. Needs to be 3 ft in ground and about 7 ft above for what I would like to accomplish. Planning to stack panels on side making a unit 6'4" wide and 13'4" tall. or there abouts.

Larry


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

That is a substantial "sail" . . . . . . .So judge for yourself as to wind conditions in your area.

Yes 3' in the ground with lots of concrete is quite reasonable.


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## Txpipecarver (Nov 17, 2013)

I live in south Texas and as much sun we get here one would think solar would be easy... I think you have to change your lifestyle first then go off grid??


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2013)

Would love Solar panels..Im wondering the cost though? I have no idea where to begin to look.I know our home is not very big..like 1200 square foot with a detached 800 square foot Garage..Any advice would be very grateful for.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

WE made the plunge 5 years ago into wind and solar. 
We looked at two factors make that three.
1. The cost of bringing in electricity to our build sit. 15 to 20 grand.
2. trusting wall street with our retirement funds??????????? So we decided to take not put any more money in those investments and instead put all funds into wind and solar. if you figure 150 or 200 mo electric bill you are not paying is a dividend. What kind of safe wall street investment does it take to have a 200$ mo dividend.
3. Last but not least as William Wallace would say FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOMMMM!


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Alaska said:


> 2. trusting wall street with our retirement funds???????????* So we decided to take not put any more money in those investments and instead put all funds into wind and solar. if you figure 150 or 200 mo electric bill you are not paying is a dividend. What kind of safe wall street investment does it take to have a 200$ mo dividend.*



I figured up what I had in mine and figure I'm getting a 12% (TAX FREE) return on amount invested. I can't find any place else that would pay that kind of guaranteed return.


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

TnAndy said:


> I figured up what I had in mine and figure I'm getting a 12% (TAX FREE) return on amount invested. I can't find any place else that would pay that kind of guaranteed return.


Guaranteed is the key word. As we saw just a few short years ago wall street investments can disappear into bonuses for the fat cats. My solar panels aint going anywhere!


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

Got the first four panels and controller. Now I am just waiting on the combiner box. I have been thinking about mount options and think I am going to go with the KISS method. The main reason is I hope to need to move the panels in a few years. Thanks to everyone for their input. 

Larry


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

We got the four posts set for the panels. Decided to go with a ground mount made out of pressure treated wood. Used 4x4x8 and 4x4x12 posts 2x6x16 for framing. Think I will lay tar paper between the treated wood and the panels to keep them from corroding. I am building it so the angle can be changed throughout the year. Also trying to keep it high enough that my girls cat wont jump up on the panels. I will have to cut the posts down some wanted to get 8 and 10 footers but they only had 8 and 12, same with the 2x6x16 ordered 14s but they only had 16s. If it ever quits raining I'll get some pictures and post them. 
Still waiting on the combiner box and breakers. 
Larry


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## nosqrls (Jun 9, 2012)

If you can find them what you want are electric fork lift batteries. They come in 12,24,36,48,96 volts. and and are rated at up to 1600 ah for 20 hrs. and are priced comparably with buying separate batteries but are designed for abuse. and can be found used.put four in a separate building and keeping tabs on four is a lot easier than 40 and are designed for deep cycle and 1500+ cycles from 100% to 20%. So a solar array setup should be just fine because they come in popular solar voltages. Yes I know they are heavy but you should only have to move them just once. Just my 2 cents.


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

I get all my batteries used. They are all AGM and three years old when I get them. I pay scrap prices for them. A friend works at a backup power supply co. they have contracts with local hospitals, banks and such. These companies have to have new batteries every three years or their insurance goes. Most of the batteries have been on float charge and tested, few of them have actually been used. But even the ones that have been used still have very little use since they only get used when the grid goes down. But if I ever loose my source I will look into lift batteries. Thanks
Larry


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## Halfway (Nov 22, 2010)

This is a VERY motivating thread!


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

Been at it for five years and have not stopped changing since the start. The worst thing we did led us to the best thing we have done.
I had intended to do it all myself, but working full time we just were not getting ther fast enough. So we decided to hire some help and found a very local guy who claimed to be a solar installer. Boy was he a mess. Only one panel in three was working. He said I was an idiot and was just not doing the math and everything was working great. 
long story -short we ran into a gal on the outback forum who volunteered to come out and look at the system. She confirmed what we already knew the installer was a screw up. She helped us along for a couple of years and in the process we also met a real installer who we have become good friends with. He supplies product at a fair price and keeps me from making any major screw ups. I hire him to do most of the wireing as he does a much neater job than I do.


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

Hey Alaska thanks for the pics! Wind power is cool too, if they keep logging around here we might just take a stab at it. We would still be on the bottom of usable wind power but power is power every little bit adds up.

Larry


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

Here is the main source of power, all controls and batteries are in the building which faces due south with the roof at a 30 deg angle. Wires are buried 150 feet to the house.
The first two panels for the next array are on our home made tracker for now. Manually moved several times a day. Next array scheduled for January.


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

nice set up you have there alaska. I like the mobile mount for those two panels. Thanks for the pics. I see you have the same type charge controller that I ordered, how do you like it? Is it easy to use?

Larry


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## Alaska (Jun 16, 2012)

The classic was added recently to replace the bergey wind controler that burnt up on us.So far so good really have not had to do a thing with it.
We have an outback fm 80 controller for the solar. And it has been good. 
And again I dont have to do much with it.


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

Ok working on my panel mount. Found that I am NOT going to be able to adjust it for full tilt angle. My latitude is 36.9 what would be the best year round setting? 51 degrees? Or since our summer weather is so much better should I lean that way? 
Also if I can still adjust part of that sweep between 36 and 66 degrees which end of the spectrum would be best? 

Thanks
Larry


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

biggkidd said:


> Ok working on my panel mount. Found that I am NOT going to be able to adjust it for full tilt angle. My latitude is 36.9 what would be the best year round setting? 51 degrees? Or since our summer weather is so much better should I lean that way?
> Also if I can still adjust part of that sweep between 36 and 66 degrees which end of the spectrum would be best?
> 
> Thanks
> Larry


Hi,
I think your best bet would be to run PVWatts Version 1 for several tilt angles and see what works best in your area:
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/pvwatts/version1/

Since PVWatts gives you the output by month, you can use it to see how much you gain by varying the tilt through the year. 

Gary


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

SolarGary said:


> Hi,
> I think your best bet would be to run PVWatts Version 1 for several tilt angles and see what works best in your area:
> http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/pvwatts/version1/
> 
> ...


Super thank you 

A friend of mine came by and took a look and between us I think we can still get the full 35 - 65 degrees. I just have to change the way I lay out the panels run them horizontal instead of vertical. I will definitely chek out that site and add it to my solar group.

Larry


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

For a fixed array it is better to favor the winter angle to max out for the shorter days ......
You wont loose that much during the longer summer days....


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## Explorer (Dec 2, 2003)

Jim-mi said:


> For a fixed array it is better to favor the winter angle to max out for the shorter days ......
> You wont loose that much during the longer summer days....


This is how I have my array set up.


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

Finally got my 4 little panels up today. 



A slow start to going solar with only 1200 watts. I also have six of the HF 45w kits that we have had a few years now. 

Now I am still waiting on the combiner box to show up then I can hook it all together. I was able to keep some of the tilt adjustable I can adjust between 35 and 55 degrees. The tall front posts do create a small bit of shading but I think (hope) its worth it. In the picture the panels are at 51 degrees.

Larry


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

Finally got the controller hooked up yesterday. We are making power this morning, almost 700 watts or 50 amps of charge @ 13.7 volts when I checked a few min ago. I did unhook 2,200 Ah worth of batteries that are pretty old and may be drawing the system down. I need to give them a long slow charge and test them to see if they stay or go. Its nice to actually be making enough power to see the results. The sun will be strait on the panels in about an hour we'll see what its charging then. 

Larry


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## Deeplines (Dec 7, 2013)

bigkidd - did you get your battery knowledge off the internet, read books or do you work in the trade?

Just trying to figure out all the terminology you are using about amh and all that. I understand what you are saying, just trying to figure it out. (If that makes sense.)

Nice job on the project.


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

Deeplines said:


> bigkidd - did you get your battery knowledge off the internet, read books or do you work in the trade?
> 
> Just trying to figure out all the terminology you are using about amh and all that. I understand what you are saying, just trying to figure it out. (If that makes sense.)
> 
> Nice job on the project.


 Um I wouldn't say I really have any knowledge about them per say. I have been messing with mechanical junk all my life. So the little I know has just been picked up over the years. 

Batteries are rated in amp hours or AH the ones I took out of the loop are old 2 Volt rated at 1,100 AH each. I have 12 of them. Or 2,200 AH @ 12 volt. I also have 16 134 AH 12 Volt batteries. 

Now I have a question for you all? Now that I have this up and running it doesn't appear to be acting right. Using a classic 150 controller the charge is swinging all over in full sun. It will go from 70 volts and 900 watts or 60 amps charge down to nothing then back up. No cloud cover or anything. It never stays constant. Today it went from input from the panels was 70 + volts to showing input down to 2 volts then back up. It just keeps bouncing around. Is this normal or do I have a problem? 

Thanks

Larry


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

biggkidd said:


> Finally got my 4 little panels up today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would guess the tall front posts will eliminate 90% of the power from the bottom 2 panels for all but about 1 hour a day.

WWW


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## biggkidd (Aug 16, 2012)

wy_white_wolf said:


> I would guess the tall front posts will eliminate 90% of the power from the bottom 2 panels for all but about 1 hour a day.
> 
> WWW


Why? Its a very small shade spot on the second panel after 1 pm. I messed up with the mount it is not pointing dead south. It's off a few degrees. I left the posts tall like that so that I can adjust them for summer use. If they are costing me that much I will find away to change it. 

Thanks
Larry


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