# Anyone taking Diatomaceous Earth?



## terri46355 (May 16, 2003)

I've read online praises for food grade diatomaceous earth (DE). Silica, the main ingredient in DE, is touted as a cure-all. If you are taking DE: 

What are your taking it for?
How much are you taking?
How long have you been taking it?
Does it work for you?


----------



## FarmerRob (May 25, 2009)

I've never heard of anyone taking it, although I may be surprised by answers that follow. I have heard of many people giving it to their pets and livestock, mixed in with food, as a worming agent. I guess if I had worms I might give it a try. Food grade is distinguished from non-food grade by being of a coarser texture. You can see some good pictures of DE at the Perma-Guard website: http://www.perma-guard.com/
The coarse texture causes this type of DE to kill anything with an exo-skeleton, such as garden pests, roaches, ants, etc. It is good to put some in your chicken's (and other poultry) dust bath area to keep down mites.

If this stuff is supposed to be a curative for humans I would like to hear about that, but it will be news to me.

BTW, if anyone is looking for a deal on DE, the best I have found so far, is thru Amazon. They have the Perma-Guard food grade fossil shell flour in a 50# bag. Shipped to me was a in mid $50s. Direct from Perma-guard the shipping was more than the product (at least to Georgia).


----------



## Darren (May 10, 2002)

Arteries, one teaspoon twice a day, two months, I probably won't know for at least another four months.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

It is a source of silica.

http://www.eidon.com/silica_article.html


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

DE is just as effective as eating sand, since chemically it's no different
The ONLY sites that praise it also happen to SELL it


----------



## jennigrey (Jan 27, 2005)

Go ask this question down in the horse forum. eep:


----------



## terri46355 (May 16, 2003)

Try getting it at the local feed store. I bought a 50 lb bag of Perma-Guard food grade DE for $25.


----------



## "SPIKE" (Dec 7, 2011)

I have not been able to find it locally. The last I bought cost $27 for 50 lbs., but it cost $28 to ship! :flame:

This is one of those debatable subjects. Some use it, some don't. Some studies say it works for some uses, but not others. Some studies say it does not help with internal parasites, but it may help dry out the fecal mater and help eliminate parasite eggs. The people that sell if of course promote it well.:shrug:

I guess you are looking for opinions. My opinion and $1 will get you a cup coffee at most places!:banana:

I use it. I mix with fluid and drink it myself. I am healthy and do not take it for any particular problem. I ate dirt as a kid and I guess I still do as an adult. This dirt is just cleaner! LOL

I feed it to my animals. I dust my animals with it. I sprinkle it in my animals housing. I use it for garden pest.

SPIKE


----------



## jross (Sep 3, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> DE is just as effective as eating sand, since chemically it's no different
> The ONLY sites that praise it also happen to SELL it


I understood de to be the skeletons of dead diatoms therefore almost pure calcium whereas sand is silica. I have used pool grade de in the garden to kill cutworms and slugs as the sharp skeletal matter cuts their hides desicating them. First time I've heard of anyone eating it.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Humans and critters have been taking DE for thousands of years. Deposits are on the land. DE is fossilized plants from the oceans and lakes. It looks and feels like flour.

All it is is 28 trace minerals.

NO ONE knows why DE works like it does. Those of us who feed and take it are just glad it works!

I've been taking DE for many years. Have been feeding it to my house pets and livestock for over 30 years. My critters haven't had any sickness, diseases, or vet bills all these years and I can't remember the last time I saw a doctor.
My large livestock free choice feed DE. I keep it in a feeder in a weather proof area. You can't over-dose DE. My house pets prefer DE mixed with something they like. I free choice feed so can't put it in their feed. They like raw eggs, I have poultry, so that's what I mix the DE in.

DE also deworms when the right amount is fed, so I've bought no commercial dewormers for my critters all these years.

The amount each person takes daily depends on why they're taking it. Some of us take a lot, some of us take smaller amounts.

Everything that breathes around here takes DE daily. You couldn't pay me enough money to quit using it!

DE is available at many feed stores.

There are different grades of DE. The industrial grade is used in many ways such as in swimming pool filters. It is treated and heated. When DE is heated, it becomes crystalline, up to 85% crystalline and can cause lung problems, cancer, even death.

This is why we use food grade DE. It's not fooled with and is less than 1% crystalline. The bag will say on the front FOOD CHEMICAL CODEX GRADE. If it doesn't, don't purchase.

World Minerals owns most of the DE deposits in the U.S. Their largest supplier is Perma-Guard, and that is the name you will see on bags of 100% food grade DE. 

Prices vary across the country. I've seen those 50 pound bags sell from $15 to $55 dollars. Same bags, same stuff!! Where I'm presently at, it's $24.50

DE prevents, reverses, cures most "incurable" diseases.


----------



## terri46355 (May 16, 2003)

Rogo said:


> Humans and critters have been taking DE for thousands of years. Deposits are on the land. DE is fossilized plants from the oceans and lakes. It looks and feels like flour.
> 
> All it is is 28 trace minerals.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the great answer! How much do you take a day? I took 1 tsp. of Perma-Guard DE this morning as a preventative, because the FDA lists it as GRAS. I'm also going to put it on the animal feed. Thanks again.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I understood de to be the skeletons of dead diatoms therefore almost pure calcium whereas *sand is silica*


DE is *FOSSILIZED *"skeletons" of Diatoms
It has NO calcium at all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth



> The typical chemical composition of oven dried diatomaceous earth is *80 to 90% silica*, with 2 to 4% alumina (attributed mostly to clay minerals) and 0.5 to 2% iron oxide.[1]





> I have used pool grade de in the garden


Pool grade is the most hazardous form because it's been calcined (heat treated) which changes the crystalline structure


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> All it is is *28 trace minerals*.


That's not true.
That's sales hype



> The typical chemical composition of oven dried diatomaceous earth is 80 to 90% silica, with 2 to 4% alumina (attributed mostly to clay minerals) and 0.5 to 2% iron oxide.





> DE also deworms when the right amount is fed,


Not according to SCIENTIFIC studies

http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/controlgoatparasites.html



> In the case of diatomaceous earth there have been several studies done by parasitologists in different parts of the country that have found *no beneficial effect *to feeding it or offering it as mineral





> There are different grades of DE. The industrial grade is used in many ways such as in swimming pool filters. It is treated and heated. When DE is heated, it becomes crystalline, up to 85% crystalline and can cause lung problems, cancer, even death


Finally, an actual fact!!



> DE prevents, reverses, cures most "incurable" diseases


LOL
At least *pretend *to be serious


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== It has NO calcium at all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth ===


There is a brand of DE, Red Lake, on the market. It is mixed with clay. I have never used it. I use Perma-Guard. It's 100% DE.

Calcium is one of the 28 trace minerals in Perma-Guard. PPM - 1300 / % composition - 0.1300

When I throw my hens eggs on the ground for the critters (pigs and poultry), if they don't hit a rock, they don't break. I then have to break them with my foot.

And I've never fed the poultry oyster shell!! No need. Plenty of calcium in the DE.

When my 93 year old mom fell, the doctor couldn't figure out why she didn't break anything. She looked up at him - all 4' 10 inches of her and 85 pounds - looked him in the eye and said, "that's because I'm taking the stuff you said wouldn't do me any good." She then walked away. Yep, DE has plenty of calcium.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

.13 percent? Sooooo.... that's .0013, right. Yup.

Parts per MILLION. So out of 1,000,000 parts, 1300 of them are calcium.

More likely your mother has good genes.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

We who use DE become preachers of the product. Hate to see humans and critters suffering when there's an inexpensive and safe fix.

The naysayers can try all they want to stop us from using it. A lot of folks would like to stop us -- doctors, nurses, hospitals, pharmacies, pharmaceutical companies, chemical companies (yep, DE kills insects - except earthworms).

I'm 72, have no prescriptions, over the counter stuff, or even aspirin in my house 'cause it's not needed. My passion is riding my mule on tough mountain rides (he's 24). 

Good genes?? Then there's millions of us around the world with good genes!! )

I know plenty of doctors and vets who take and feed DE, but they'll never tell their patients/clients about it 'cause they know they won't see them again.
Oath to heal or not, they say they have to feed their families. Sad, isn't it.


----------



## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Rogo said:


> (yep, DE kills insects - except earthworms)


Any idea why it kills internal parasite worms, garden pests, all sorts of insects, but earthworms are immune?


----------



## Bentley (Jul 10, 2008)

I understand that DE only works when it is dry. 

Therefore.........


----------



## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

DE does not "kill" intestinal worms in horses and dogs. It scores the eggs which in turn do not hatch. 
At least that's my understanding.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> There is a brand of DE, Red Lake, on the market. It is mixed with clay. I have never used it. I use Perma-Guard. It's 100% DE.
> 
> Calcium is one of the 28 trace minerals in Perma-Guard. PPM - 1300 / % composition - 0.1300


*1/10th of one percent *is EFFECTIVELY "no calcium".



> *Plenty of calcium *in the DE.


Not according to YOUR *numbers*, which say each pound of DE has *1/1000th *of a pound of calcium



> We who use DE become preachers of the product


That doesn't make the claims factual, and could actually be used as possible evidence of DE's psychotropic qualities



> (yep, DE kills insects - except earthworms)


More *misleading* sales hype from those who promote it's use in the garden



> The naysayers can try all they want to stop us from using it.


I personally don't care if you eat it, drink it , inject it, or sleep in piles of it.

I DO care that *others *are informed of the truth rather than the anecdotes.
Then they are free to make their own decisions.

You have to admit though, when you say things like this:



> DE prevents, reverses, cures most "incurable" diseases


you lose ALL credibility


----------



## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

That is so tiny amount nothing would benefit from such a small amount. I wonder what a handful of nice clean sand would contain? LOL


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

That line about incurable diseases ruffled my feathers, too. Having a grandson who is a cancer survivor thanks to St. Jude Childrens Research Hospital, NOT diatomaceous earth, it is offensive that someone makes those claims.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> DE does not "kill" intestinal worms in horses and dogs. It scores the eggs which in turn do not hatch.
> At least that's my understanding.


It helps PREVENT worms by drying out the FECES once it leaves the body, and makes it harder for the eggs to hatch.
You can get the same effect much sooner by simply throwing it directly on the manure

DE passes UNCHANGED through the body, and is often used as a "marker" in testing due to that fact

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth#Marker_in_livestock_nutrition_experiments



> Natural diatomaceous earth (dried, not calcined) is regularly used in livestock nutrition research as a source of acid *insoluble* ash (AIA), which is used as *an indigestible marker. *
> 
> By measuring the content of AIA relative to nutrients in test diets and feces or digesta sampled from the terminal ileum (last third of the small intestine) the percentage of that nutrient digested can be calculated using the following equation:


----------



## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

jennigrey said:


> Go ask this question down in the horse forum. eep:


Whoops. No need. The party is here.


----------



## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

Darren said:


> Arteries, one teaspoon twice a day, two months, I probably won't know for at least another four months.


To clog them or clean them out?!? :nana:

I'm assuming you have some type of problem that you have been taking the DE for 2 months and you expect to know if it helped in 4 more months. Would you care to elaborate?

I've used DE on my animals. I still have some, but haven't used it for a while. I've seen and read all the claims that it can do that are to benefit an animal.

While I can see how DE (using it dry) on insects would work, I'm not so certain how it would work internally. It's supposed to work by "cutting" an insect and it therefore drys up. Most intestines are moist, so not sure how anything is going to dry up in there.

Not saying it doesn't - but it just doesn't seem it would make a difference for killing worms. Now the comment about it slicing the eggs, so they don't hatch . . . . now that could have some merit.

But I'm not so certain I would believe that DE is a cureall for EVERYTHING.


----------



## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

I went to the website to look around. Hmm.

The stuff they sell specifically to target insects has some interesting ingredients.



> Perma-Guard's insecticides kill by physical action, not chemical. First by being abrasive to the insects exoskeleton and absorbing its body fluids, thus posing no harm to warm-blooded life. The addition of Pyrethrins and Piperonyl butoxide is to irritate the bug, causing the bug to become active, allowing the DE to work more quickly. As the Pyrethrins and Piperonyl butoxide becomes inactive after three months once applied these products do not contain persistent chemicals harmful to the environment and to higher forms of life, to which insects become immune -- it is a natural insecticide. Perma-Guard products are a much needed revolution for pest control. These products are certain death to insects. Moreover, on any surface, these natural pesticide products have a remarkable repellency factor. As long as it is present, insects tend to stay away, making a serious infestation unlikely. Also, the more it is used, the more an environment is created that tends to make insects feel unwelcome.


Looking at my can of fly spray, the two active ingredients are Pyrethrins and Piperonyl butoxide, and it is certain death on bugs. No DE needed. DOes DE work on insects without the addition of two other known insect killers?

And this line caught my eye: 


> First by being abrasive to the insects exoskeleton and absorbing its body fluids


On another page of the website, they say:


> FOSSIL SHELL FLOURÂ® does not swell, does not absorb nutrients and poses no long term hazard when used as an anti-caking agent in your animal's feed.


How does it know to absorb the nutrients of life needed by the insect, but it does not absorb nutrients needed by the livestock? Truly a miracle product.

http://perma-guard.com/fossilshell.html


----------



## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Ed Norman said:


> How does it know to absorb the nutrients of life needed by the insect, but it does not absorb nutrients needed by the livestock? Truly a miracle product.
> [/url]


Sorta what I was thinking...

killing internal parasites by drying them out... or 'firming up' stools... if the stuff is so absorbent, why doesn't it absorb all it's going to absorb, in the mouth and stomach, before it gets to where the nasties are at?...

If I take DE, or any other whatever, daily, and have no problems with ailments... is it the supplements I take that's preventing me from having ailments, or was I going to be ailment free (ir)regardless?

Reckon if I were real wormy, and knew I was wormy, I'd give it a shot, maybe. And then take a worm pill...


----------



## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Rogo said:


> I know plenty of doctors and vets who take and feed DE, but they'll never tell their patients/clients about it 'cause they know they won't see them again.
> Oath to heal or not, they say they have to feed their families. Sad, isn't it.


That's some cold-blooded doctors. Watching those little kids dies, young mothers suffer and die, leaving a family motherless, watching a beloved grandparent slowly die before their time, watching a hard working father and husband die and leave the family without support. And all those doctors would have to do is mention DE and everyone would be cured. But nope, they gotta pay the mortgage and the country club fees. And not one doctor is brave enough to say we should all be taking DE daily to cure all ailments known.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Actually, I have heard of one doctor in the east. The alzheimer patients bothered him. He put them on DE. He's been so successful reversing the disease that he's continued.

Full blown AIDS reversed. Cancer, both in dogs and humans reversed. 

I also take DE so I won't get what my family has put in my genes -- cancer, diabetes, macular degeneration, and who knows what else. After wearing glasses and contact lenses for over 50 years, I no longer need them for distance or near. Renewed my driver's license and there's no restrictions.

I've helped to introduce you to DE. Do as you wish. I love that my critters and I live without pain and I really love not having vet or medical bills.


----------



## J.T.M. (Mar 2, 2008)

I chain smoke 3-4 paks of ciggs. a day ,and I don't have worms therefore.........


----------



## Rope (Jan 2, 2012)

We sell 100% DE at work. It is sold as a floor dry. It is not food grade I am sure, but maybe I should spread some of it around the chicken house? 
Think I will pass on eating any myself. 
A


----------



## acde (Jul 25, 2011)

If you are going to self medicate you must FIRST self educate, thanks for the info Rogo. Glad you are in good health, I will do my research.


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

All of you folks that have been eating DE, I'd like to know how many years you've been eating it.

There's no way I'd eat DE or give it to my livestock in their feed, not even to birds. I don't believe that it's effective against internal parasites. 

Humans and animals digestive systems and organs aren't designed to eat silica and mineral materials in that form. It's damaging for the kidneys and the whole renal system and can contribute to the formation of kidney and bladder stones. People and animals already get pretty much all the silica they need in liquid form and in plant/meat foods that already have silica and other minerals assimilated into it.

.


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I tried DE as a wormer, it was a catestrophic failure! Never again.


----------



## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

wow, adding another thing to the list not to discuss at cocktail parties...
no politics,no religion and no DE! lol

DE sure seems to be a polarizing subject, but I will weigh in with my humble opinion and experience.

I have used DE for close to 30 yrs in the garden, the house and with pets and livestock as bug control, am not sure about it killing worms internally, but I do know it works to keep the flies down and hornworms off my tomato plants..

We add it to all our animals feed, and if you have ever eaten a commercially made biscuit/pancake mix, 
_you _have ingested DE.

I would never claim it to be a cure-all, but after reading some reports of it helping with joint pains, etc, I decided to try taking it internally to see if it would help.

After only a week of taking 1-2 tsp's a day, then working up to a tblsp or two, the pains in my joints were no longer bothering me enough to need pain relievers and after a month, I cancelled a planned visit to the Dr. for shots to ease the pain.

Placebo effect?? 
maybe, but I'd much rather be fooling my mind with something harmless, than needing to take pain meds and nasty cortizone shots to keep doing what I love...
working hard in the garden and taking care of all our animals.


----------



## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

J.T.M. said:


> I chain smoke 3-4 paks of ciggs. a day ,and I don't have worms therefore.........


And I chew and don't have worms either. LOL


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I thought tobacco was a natural wormer?


----------



## terri46355 (May 16, 2003)

Sometimes it is the simple things that work best, so I can't disagree with Rogo. I know someone who had high blood pressure and after taking DE, he has normal blood pressure and no longer needs a prescription.


----------



## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Mine in bold:



Ellie Mae said:


> wow, adding another thing to the list not to discuss at cocktail parties...
> no politics,no religion and no DE! lol
> 
> DE sure seems to be a polarizing subject, but I will weigh in with my humble opinion and experience.
> ...


I'm a believer. Some never will be. Some will say it's all lies without ever having even tried it for any of it's many uses. In the end, I believe any that have found it "harmful" were simply using the wrong stuff. All DE is NOT created equal.


----------



## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

terri46355 said:


> Sometimes it is the simple things that work best, so I can't disagree with Rogo. I know someone who had high blood pressure and after taking DE, he has normal blood pressure and no longer needs a prescription.


I've heard that, too. Also, that it may help with dysfunctional thyroids. I should try it. My thyroid quit working years ago, so I have that little pill to take everyday for the rest of my life! Ugh!


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

I would give a little thought to anything that will kill insects going into my body.
If it destroys the outsides of insects wonder what it does to the intestines?


----------



## "SPIKE" (Dec 7, 2011)

EasyDay,

It will dissolve/mix well enough in water, juice, or milk to drink.

SPIKE


----------



## "SPIKE" (Dec 7, 2011)

I am not promoting or trying to change anyone's mind, but here is some interesting reading;

http://www.earthworkshealth.com/human-use.php

SPIKE


----------



## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

EasyDay,

DE does "dissolve" in water,
I add a couple tsp or tblsp's to a small amount of water, mix well and put it in a shot glass and slug it down, like I used to do with Tequila...

The one downside to taking it internally that we experienced at first, is that it will clean out your intestines...so good in fact, DH told me he was getting rid of food he hadn't even eaten yet, lol

We backed off the amount to 1 tsp a day and built up slowly over a week or so, no more super colon cleansing effects and all is well.

those of us who have had relief from joint pain by taking DE are not scientific studies of course, and
*disclaimer...
I am NOT suggesting anyone else take DE internally or that it is some miracle cure, just sharing our personal experience with it.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

> The typical chemical composition of oven dried diatomaceous earth is 80 to 90% silica, with 2 to 4% alumina (attributed mostly to clay minerals) and 0.5 to 2% iron oxide.


That adds up to 96% at most. Leaves plenty of room for trace minerals. Not saying they're there, but something fills the remaining 4-17.5%.


----------



## "SPIKE" (Dec 7, 2011)

Ellie Mae said:


> wow, adding another thing to the list not to discuss at cocktail parties...
> no politics,no religion and no DE! lol
> 
> .


:hysterical::rotfl: :doh: :stirpot:  :bash:

SPIKE


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> That adds up to 96% at most. Leaves plenty of room for trace minerals. Not saying they're there, but something fills the remaining 4-17.5%.


Anything else is *contaminates* (usually clay) that can be found in *any soil*

Silica is the second most common element on Earth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon


> Measured by mass, silicon makes up 27.7% of the Earth's crust and is the second most abundant element in the crust, with only oxygen having a greater abundance.[11] Silicon is usually found in the form of complex silicate minerals, and less often as silicon dioxide (silica, *a major component of common sand*). Pure silicon crystals are very rarely found in nature.




If ingesting it would *really* cure everything, no one would ever be sick at all, since silica is everywhere


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Ah c'mon Bearfoot, listenin don't cost a dime, ............


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Anything else is *contaminates* (usually clay) that can be found in *any soil*


Source?


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Source?


I've already posted lots of links


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Ah c'mon Bearfoot, listenin don't cost a dime, ............


LOL

I've heard this song and dance routine too many times already


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Me too I would have thought there wasn't a soul in N America that believed in cure-alls but I'll leave it to them to enjoy.


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Quartz in it's solid form cannot dissolve and be assimilated into the body by eating it.

Silica is quartz crystal (silicon dioxide). It's what glass is made from. Quartz does not dissolve in water, it doesn't even dissolve in the hydrochloric acid that is in the stomach. Not even muriatic acid can dissolve quartz and muriatic acid can dissolve the flesh off your bones and then dissolve the bones.

Anyone who says they're taking DE that dissolves in water is not taking real silica DE, they're taking clay and crushed calcium and limestone.

If you want real silica in it's molecular form you can get it from drinking infusions of horsetail plants.

.


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

> If you want real silica in it's molecular form you can get it from drinking infusions of horsetail plants.


 Good to know.... oddly the sheep avoid it completely.


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Ross said:


> Good to know.... oddly the sheep avoid it completely.


Animals won't eat it unless they sense they have a silica deficiency, and even then they will only nibble tiniest bits of it because the roughage of horsetail can damage the internal organs and intestines - it's kind of like eating glass or steel wool.

Horsetail has so much silica in it, it was at one time used for polishing stone sculptures and gemstones to a fine polish. 

Drinking too much silica through horsetail infusion (made like a tea that is allowed to steep for several hours) can be detrimental to the body and cause renal failure. It must be taken in very small amounts. 

Anyone eating real silica DE in it's solid form, even in small amounts, is just asking for kidney and bladder stones and complete renal failure a few years down the road.

.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I've already posted lots of links


None of them says what the last 4% is.


----------



## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

I am not sure about what others posted, but I placed the word dissolved in parentheses for a reason, it does not dissolve per se, but becomes mixed enough to get down the throat, like a thin chalky liquid.

Only _one _ poster claimed DE as a cure all...

any scientific studies or links regarding the ingesting of DE and/or silica causing kidney stones and renal failure? 
I haven't come across them, but am always open to new info, pro and con.

It is obvious that there are two camps with strong opinions regarding the use of DE, those who like it and those who don't...
each to their own.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== Any idea why it kills internal parasite worms, garden pests, all sorts of insects, but earthworms are immune? ===


The outer skin of the earthworm is too tough for the powder to work.


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Ellie Mae said:


> any scientific studies or links regarding the ingesting of DE and/or silica causing kidney stones and renal failure?
> 
> I haven't come across them, but am always open to new info, pro and con.


Just do some research on what happens when you eat crushed, powdered glass.

That will tell anybody all they need to know about eating silica DE, since it's basically the same thing.

.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

All you naysayers with your myths can skip this message. For those who have written to me, I thought I'd include these field reports so all can see them:


FIELD REPORT - FEEDING CODEX FOOD-GRADE DIATOMACEOUS
EARTH (DE) TO DAIRY COWS

J. S. Bunker, Bunker Farms, Mesa, Arizona

After feeding 100 dairy cows on DE for approximately
one year, the following results were noted:

1. Warbles became non-existent.

2. Fly nuisance almost completely disappeared.

3. Odours were almost completely gone.

4. Cows have better hair and coat condition and have
no desire to lick soil as in the past.

5. Vet bills have been significantly reduced.

6. Butterfat content has risen from 503 lbs. per cow
to 513 lbs. per cow.


FIELD REPORT - FEEDING OF CODEX FOOD-GRADE
DIATOMACEOUS EARTH TO DAIRY COWS

Daniel M. Brandt, McFarland, Wisconsin

Results from feeding 5 to 6 ounces of food-grade
diatomaceous earth to dairy herd for a period of five
weeks:

1. Butterfat tests have shown an increase of 3.7 to
3.9.

2. Mastitis, which had been quite a severe problems,
came under control (no new cases).

3. Cows are brighter and healthier in appearance and
milk production has increased without an appreciable
increase in feed.


STUDY OF CODEX FOOD-GRADE DIATOMACEOUS EARTH IN FEED
PIGS

M. F. Petty, DVM, Alabama

Results were as follows:

1. No internal parasites were discovered in the test
group at any time after seven days of the DE.

2. All hogs on DE stopped rooting and destroying the
wooden feeder after 10 days.

3. By the end of the third week the odour of the test
group was noticeably less offensive than the control
group.

4. At the end of six weeks the fly population
decreased markedly.


RESULTS OF THE USE OF CODEX FOOD-GRADE DIATOMACEOUS
EARTH WITH POULTRY

C. S. Mangen, DVM, San Diego,California

Using two groups of birds with each group consisting
of 8,000 white leghorn caged layers in their pullet
year which had been producing for five months.

After feeding the test group 60 lbs. of diatomaceous
earth per 1-1/2 tons of standard mixed feed (17%
protein) for 2-1/2 months the following results were
observed:

1. There appeared to be less flies around the test
group.

2. Droppings are of a drier consistency, making for
easier cleaning of the house.

3. Seventy-five percent less deaths in the test group.

4. A 2-4 case per day increase in egg production by
the test group compared to the control group.


RESULTS OF CODEX FOOD-GRADE DIATOMACEOUS EARTH FED TO
HORSES

Four Winds Stables, Robert D. Horkman, Orlando,
Florida

Results of feeding 5 oz. of diatomaceous earth to show
horses for a period of one year. 

Healthier-looking animals with a definite sheen to
their coats 

absence of internal parasites 

better feed conversion 

reduction in manure odour 

fly control 

cured scours in cases where other medications had
failed 

improved appetites in picky eaters.


REPORT ON FEEDING OF STAR LAKE DIATOMACEOUS EARTH TO
DAIRY GOATS

Sue Cheeseman, Pinnacle Farms, Lanark County, Ontario

We have been providing DE to our herd of Alpine dairy
goats on a regular basis (two weeks on, two weeks
off) for three years and have had completely
eliminated all internal worm problems. We have also
found that the fly population has dropped and we have
successfully used DE to treat lice. Everyone who meets
our goats comments on the soft, rich texture of their
coats and we are convinced that the DE plays a role in
this as well.


CLINICAL OBSERVATIONS OF FEEDING CODEX FOOD-GRADE
DIATOMACEOUS EARTH TO DOGS

O. C. Collins, DVM, Midland Animal Clinic and
Hospital, Midland, Texas

In clinical observations of feeding dogs over 35 lbs.
1 tablespoon/day and under 35 lbs. 1 teaspoon/day of
diatomaceous earth, within seven days all ova
disappeared from stools. Diatomaceous Earth controlled
Ascarids (Toxacara canis), Hookworms (Anclyostoma
caninum), and Whipworms (Trichuris vulipis).


FIELD REPORT - FREE CHOICE FEEDING TO DAIRY CATTLE

Dairy Herd Association Improvement Program,
HusseyFarms, Litchfield Park, Arizona

Tests run on purebred Jersey dairy cows given free
choice access to codex food-grade diatomaceous earth
(DE).

Average intake was three ounces per cow per day.

After six months the following results were observed:

1. Milk production in the test group increased over
20% with butter-fat content remaining the same.

2. Warbles problems came to an abrupt halt.

3. Feed assimilation improved and fly problems were
brought under control.


ORGAN ANALYSIS OF DAIRY COWS

Michigan Department of Agriculture, Laboratory
Division, Lansing, Michigan

Upon pathological examination of the organs of dairy
cows having been given free-choice feeding of codex
food-grade diatomaceous earth for a period of
approximately five years, no visible organ
abnormalities were observed.


RESULTS OF CATTLE FEED LOT TESTS

Webster Feed Lots Inc., Webster, Colorado
by Dr. Jack Martin, Sterling Nutritional Services

Four groups of cattle of over 300 head each, test
steers, control steers, test heifers, control heifers.
All groups primarily hereford/angus crosses or "black
baldies" with remainder being hereford, angus, or
exotics. All groups nearly identical in breed
composition.

Test groups fed freshwater, food grade DE at the rate
of 3% of total daily ration. (Note: Midway through
the test, heifer ration was changed from 3% to 1.5% as
there had been a reduction in the daily feed
consumption with the test heifers. Normal feed
consumption resumed with the lower percentage of DE.)

Significant findings include:

Fewer deaths: DE fed calves had lower pen mortalities.
None of the test group deaths were caused by lactic
acidosis, a common result of switching calves from
pasture to feedlot.

Lower Feed Cost: Test animals experienced daily weight
gain similar to the control animals while consuming
less feed.

Greater Profit: Performance was better in the steer
group than the heifer group. The DE fed steers
yielded $9.10 per-head profit than the control steers.
The DE fed heifers produced $8.30 per head more 
money.


REPORT ON FEEDING CODEX FOOD-GRADE DIATOMACEOUS EARTH
TO WALKING HORSES

L. Thomas, Trainer, L. Frank Roper Stables, Winter
Garden, Florida

With horses fed approximately 5 oz. of diatomaceous
earth mixed in the feed twice daily, the following
results were observed:

1. Stopped scours even on horses that had not
responded to any other medications.

2. Noticeable fly reduction.

3. Horses showed an increase in appetites.

4. Weight gain due to better feed conversion.

5. Reduction in manure odour.

6. Elimination of any internal parasites.

7. Healthier appearance.


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

So my round up efforts on horsetail would seen (at some level) to fall into somebodies best management practice. I feel much better... wait no much the same as always. If critters ignore a ready source of the same curative, all on their ones-ies who am I to argue?


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

This is what diatoms look like when they're alive. Diatomaceous Earth (DE) is comprised of microscopic amorphous silica exoskeletons of Diatom&#8217;s. 

The typical chemical composition of average raw oven dried diatomaceous earth powder is around 80 to 90% amorphous silica with 2 to 4% alumina and 0.5 to 2% iron oxide.
















This is what broken up, fossilized microscopic sized diatom particles look like - bits of glass.










.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> All you naysayers with your *myths* can skip this message.


LOL

No *links* for your* FACTS*?

Because you don't want anyone to see it all came from sites SELLING DE?


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Gee Rogo that's not even close to my personal experience using DE. DE counts as the biggest mistake of my life, it cost my animals too. Not worth repeating and certainly worth warning others about. DE is BS


----------



## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Ross said:


> Gee Rogo that's not even close to my personal experience using DE. DE counts as the biggest mistake of my life, it cost my animals too. Not worth repeating and certainly worth warning others about. DE is BS


I agree. And not linking from a site that is pushing DE, but just copying the info, is not really the thing to do when trying to make a point.


----------



## lmnde (Sep 25, 2006)

Here is another yay sayer: I don't know why it works, how it works - it just does. I raise dogs - and for several years we had been living in a country place with well water. No matter what water filters I used [not a Berkley though] - we had giardia more often than not in weaning puppies, and the humans in my family dealt with constant irritable bowel syndrome, diarrhea, belly aches and stomach cramps.

Long story short - within 2-3 days pups had normal stools, and so did we humans. I tend to forget about how well DE works, unless I am battling a long term "poop" issue - and am glad for the reminder of this threat. It's been a while since I used it, and since it worked well for me in the past, I have absolutely no qualms about using it either on any of my animals or myself either. And yes - for the dogs at least - it does work as a wormer if given in substantial quantities.


----------



## buffalocreek (Oct 19, 2007)

I take Azomite daily, 1 tbsp. Over 60 trace minerals, including calcium. Cured my back pains. Been taking it over 15 years and am never sick.


----------



## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Ellie Mae said:


> I am not sure about what others posted, but I placed the word dissolved in parentheses for a reason, it does not dissolve per se, but becomes mixed enough to get down the throat, like a thin chalky liquid.


Yep, that's what I looking for. I'd tried it in my garden sprayer one time, to no avail. So thanks for your answer. Nice to get a legitimate answer.


----------



## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Rogo said:


> All you naysayers with your myths can skip this message. For those who have written to me, I thought I'd include these field reports so all can see them:
> 
> 
> FIELD REPORT - FEEDING CODEX FOOD-GRADE DIATOMACEOUS
> ...


Thanks for posting this, Rogo.

I forgot to mention that I also sprinkle it in my horse barn on the floor/bedding. I use a regular flour sieve, and just leave a light dusting around. It completely eliminated my barn fly problem. I rarely have to use fly spray on the horses anymore in the summer, and I like that! Less poison on my horses.


----------



## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> LOL
> 
> No *links* for your* FACTS*?
> 
> Because you don't want anyone to see it all came from sites SELLING DE?


Factoidz doesn't sell it:
http://wellness1.factoidz.com/diatomaceous-earth-part-4-use-by-humans/

Personal experience wins out for the Yay-sayers. We aren't selling it, so we don't care if you don't use it.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Factoidz *doesn't sell it*:
> http://wellness1.factoidz.com/diatom...use-by-humans/


Read the ads



> Diatomaceous Earth Sale DiatomaceousEarth.net
> Buy Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth. Up to 35% of Retail Pricing!


Their SPONSORS do, and the site *promotes* its use, although they admit it's based on hearsay rather than science:



> Many people have reported excellent health benefits relating to the use of Diatomaceous Earth but since no clinical trials have been done, these *reports are purely anecdotal *and as with any nutritional supplements, an FDA disclaimer is required before proceeding:
> 
> This information is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.


It's just one more *sales pitch *with no basis in fact

Now look at the LINKS at the end of the article, and tell me again about how "they don't sell it":



> Resources and places to order Diatomaceous Earth
> 
> http://www.diatomitecanada.com/fossil-shell-flour-diatomaceous-earth.htm
> http://www.westonaprice.org/environmental-toxins/mad-as-a-hatter
> ...





> *Personal experience wins out *for the Yay-sayers. We aren't selling it, so we don't care if you don't use it


LOL
If that's what makes you happy, keep thinking that


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I got a years supply from the Ontario distributor free for being a naysayer. I followed their instructions to offer it both free choice and mixed in the feed. It was a long time ago so I forget how much but I remember weighing it as instructed. Sure they ate it in the mix and maybe they licked some as free choice I remember one day it went down very quickly when a ewe fell into the bin and coated herself in it. We started clean of worms and the load grew until I had sick and dying ewes. So no not everyone who tries it swears by it. I warn others to read the science thats out there and use their heads. I tried it and it was the biggest mistake I ever made. And yeah you won't get alot of people to admit they made that serious a managment error so the yaysayers are bound to win.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

I tried DE. Like Ross said, it was a big mistake.
I was raising mostly pheasants and quail. I mixed DE with the feed and made a dusting area filled with sand and DE.
I stopped worming my birds as I was depending on the DE.
Not only did I end up with a bunch of wormy birds but also birds with breathing problems from the DE in the dusting area. Worming them again was the easy part. The breathing problems I couldn't do anything about. The birds never got over it.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Ross, do you think the DE contributed to the dying ewes, or was it just the lack of worming? I understand it's not an effective wormer, but I'm wondering if it's actually dangerous, beyond the problems from breathing the dust.


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I'm sure it wasn't killing internal worms, we returned to a regular dosing of Safeguard and the flock pulled through but not without losses. I've been culling and working towards parasite resistance as a third trait selector (after multiple births and loin length) and reducing the frequency of worming to a point that worries me..... but they're hanging tough. Everyone is getting a dose of Safeguard this week, after a 6 month interval and following ivomec. So far so good. Of interest to the grass fed crowd I cut back on my grain ration this winter too. To be fair the management group is down to 40 animals and its easier to hide success in a small sample size.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I'm wondering if it's actually dangerous, beyond the problems from breathing the dust.


The breathing hazard is the only real problem, since it's totally *inert* otherwise.
The biggest risk is pretending it cures things when in fact it does not.

Judging from what I've seen, besides killing some insects and absorbing moisture, it may also cloud your vision and cause delusions


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> it's totally *inert* otherwise.


I'm not convinced of that, but maybe.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I'm not convinced of that, but maybe.


Not just "maybe":

http://diatomitecanada.com/why-use-diatomaceous-earth.htm



> Diatomaceous Earth is *inert* and will not break down or decompose like other growing mediums


http://www.custommilling.com/DiatomaceousEarth.html



> Many of your chemical garden dust products have an *inert* ingredient in it. The *inert* ingredient is usually *Diatomaceous Earth*.


http://www.whiteearth.ca/de.htm



> Food grade *Diatomaceous Earth *is used as a binding agent or* inert *carrier in foods, pills, toothpastes etc. It is listed in the ingredients as Silicon Dioxide.


http://www.lehvoss.de/eng/1283.htm



> *Diatomaceous earth*, also known as Kieselgur, consists of the very fine silicon skeleton of dead diatoms. Because of its natural structure, diatomaceous earth has a very large surface, is *chemically inert *and has a very high absorption capacity


----------



## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The breathing hazard is the only real problem, since it's totally *inert* otherwise.
> The biggest risk is pretending it cures things when in fact it does not.
> 
> *Judging from what I've seen, besides killing some insects and absorbing moisture, it may also cloud your vision and cause delusions *


*snort*


----------



## lmnde (Sep 25, 2006)

All right - so it doesn't work for you for whatever reasons, point taken. Maybe you didn't use enough, had the wrong variety, are a a skeptic and wouldn't believe that the sky is blue when someone else tells you, maybe your animals' issues were already too severe to be helped even with DE - who knows. Matters not. 

Why however is it necessary to ridicule the ones who do use it successfully and have a track record of successful use, by being sarcastic and snarky? Can you not agree to disagree in a mature manner?


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Not just "maybe":
> 
> http://diatomitecanada.com/why-use-diatomaceous-earth.htm
> 
> ...


From your first link:


> Minor Elements %
> Calcium (Ca)	0.014
> Magnesium (Mg)	0.185
> Sulphur (S)	0.0030
> ...


Trace minerals and heavy metals are not totally inert. All mammals can potentially use trace minerals (or be harmed by heavy metals). And even if the DE itself is chemically inert, it could still have a non-chemical mechanical benefit. I don't know if that's the case, but I can keep an open mind about it.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Trace minerals and heavy metals are not totally inert


Those are only 3-4% of DE, and are found in most everything we eat.
"Open minded" also means *accepting* science over sales hype.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Those are only 3-4% of DE, and are found in most everything we eat.
> "Open minded" also means *accepting* science over sales hype.


Trace minerals don't need to be large amounts. Trace means miniscule. A lot of trace minerals are lacking from our food, so maybe there is some benefit to supplementing. I'm not accepting sales hype. Maybe some have accepted the sales hype, but most of what I've seen in this thread are people sharing their personal experience, not sales hype. It's anecdotal evidence, but it's still evidence. It isn't discounting science to consider the possibility that there might be something to those anecdotal claims. There is still a lot of mystery when it comes to life, so there's still plenty of room to learn new things.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> It's anecdotal evidence, but it's still evidence. *It isn't discounting science *to consider the possibility that there might be something to those anecdotal claims.


Actually it is, when the anecdotes can't be *verified* by the science.

All the "evidence" given by those who think it's benficial is all from sites that sell it, and all the "studies" they present are cut and pasted from those same sources.

If you try to research the "Drs" who did them, it seems the ONLY thing they ever did was the one "study", since you won't find any mention of anything else they ever did.

"Trace minerals" in DE are STILL just elements that can't be removed in processing.
A vitamin pill makes more sense if you feel you need to supplement your diet.

That way you don't have to eat the other 95% that's *useless powdered rock *that constitutes the majority of DE



> There is still a lot of mystery when it comes to life, so there's still plenty of room to learn new things.


There is mystery to life.

Mystery to DE?

Not so much, since it's basically common dirt


----------



## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Actually it is, when the anecdotes can't be *verified* by the science.
> 
> All the "evidence" given by those who think it's benficial is all from sites that sell it, and all the "studies" they present are cut and pasted from those same sources.
> 
> ...


I take daily vitamins that have trace minerals in them, and have done so for many many years, and they have been put in there in specific amounts, for specific reasons, so no need tho go and "eat some dirt" that has not been through any kind of scientific testing. imo.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> All the "evidence" given by those who think it's benficial is all from sites that sell it


That's not true. Several people have posted their own experiences. Those experiences are evidence. They aren't proof, but they're evidence. It's possible that there's something there that science and medical studies haven't tested yet. You probably can get all the trace minerals from a pill, but maybe there's a particular balance in DE that scientists haven't figured out yet. Or maybe that inert material has some kind of physical mechanism of benefit to digestion or something. I don't know. In the relatively short time since I graduated from med school there have been a lot of tremendous new discoveries. I have no doubt there's a lot more to come and probably quite a lot that we'll never understand. If people think this works for them, as long as it isn't harmful, I don't see why they should be discouraged from doing their own experiments. The exception to that would be the cases already pointed out where it was depended on as a wormer and where it was claimed to be a cure-all. It's important to refute those statements and I'm glad people did. But there's no need to treat people like they're stupid if they think it helps them.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Most people who use DE do not do side by side comparison. There is no control group. They either use DE or they don't. Their animals may be in good health. Their animals may well be in good shape without the DE. Without the use of control groups it is impossible to tell if DE works.
Science does their research with control groups. They have one group fed DE, one group fed no DE, and another group using conventional wormers. Everything else is the same.
Their findings are that DE does not kill worms inside of animals. Those fed DE have the same worms in the same number as those fed no DE.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

I'm convinced of that much pancho. And I agree that people should be informed about that if they're considering giving up on wormers and replacing them with DE. But I'm talking mostly about the cases of people who have experienced positive results taking it themselves. After all, that is what the OP asked about. It isn't scientific to draw conclusions based on people's anecdotal experiences, but it doesn't discount science to simply _consider_ those experiences when making your own decisions.


----------



## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

pancho said:


> Most people who use DE do not do side by side comparison. There is no control group. They either use DE or they don't. Their animals may be in good health. Their animals may well be in good shape without the DE. Without the use of control groups it is impossible to tell if DE works.
> Science does their research with control groups. They have one group fed DE, one group fed no DE, and another group using conventional wormers. Everything else is the same.
> Their findings are that DE does not kill worms inside of animals. Those fed DE have the same worms in the same number as those fed no DE.


I thought we had moved beyond the wormer thing. In my barn fly issue, chicken coop mites issue, and garden issue, there is the "before" and "after" comparison. The proof's in the puddin', as they say.

As far as humans taking it, we know that silica is good for us (hair, bones, nails, etc.), so if people see a difference by taking it, who's to say they don't? Different diets, different metabolisms, different lifestyles, etc., can all lead to different results. To each his own.


----------



## lmnde (Sep 25, 2006)

Most people who use DE may not do side by side comparisons because they either do not feel the need for it themselves, nor do they feel the need to proof something to others. If you want side by side - how about the alternative of before and after? I bet everybody who uses DE long term can give you before and afters. If you chose to accept that, that of course is up to you!

I'd think most ppl who go the DE route, have tried traditional, chemical ways first and have decided to go to a more natural and chemical free way. In my experience many ppl who use it as a dewormer use it once for a few days and then stop. I made that mistake the first time around, and it didn't work for me either at my first go. It also seems to me that they do not use enough of it for a sufficiently long period, if there is already a parasite problem in the first place. There is no lasting long term effect - once it passes the body, it's gone and if the parasite load is heavy or not fully exterminated, they will be back to reproducing within days once the next batch of worms matures.

I do not use DE all the time - mostly because it works so well, that the problem goes away and after a while I tend to forget about it, until it becomes necessary to do something about it again. 

When I first use DE after a time period of not using it, I add a lot - not a tsp or tbsp per pet - I add 5-6+ heaped cups to a 50# bag of feed and mix and stir until the kibbles or pellets are well coated all the way through the bag or feeder [your feed will be white coated - not dusted!]. I will feed this full strength like this to my dogs, cats, potbellies and rabbits for several days in a row. Two-three weeks at minimum if you have or suspect you have an internal parasite problem or if it has been a while since your last deworming cycle, before reducing the amount of DE that goes into a bag of feed to about 2-3 cups per 50# bag. Your pets [dogs and cats] specifically will not be particularly thrilled if the feed is heavily coated for a few days, but will come around once hungry and then eat it readily thereon. The pigs and bunnies don't seem to care much one way or the other. 

One thing I noticed over the years - is that there are no side effects or signs of toxic reactions from the die off of the parasites, as you can at times experience with traditional wormers. I have purchased my share of breeding dogs/pups over the years, and also done plenty of rescue work with dumped and deserted pups that were loaded with worms. I've repeatedly had pups that a "not so kind" soul dumped in my driveway, that after getting started on DE looked like you dumped a bowl of ramen noodles on their potty papers - days and days worth of it. 

Anyways - back to the subject at hand - you must feed a higher concentration for the initial 2-3 weeks straight through, as most internal parasites are on a 2 week cycle. After 2 weeks any adult worms and eggs should be destroyed, but I like to be safe and go a 3rd week, just because [nothing scientific here - just experience and my gut feeling]. [The response to coccidia and giardia is pretty much noticeable after just 2-3 days of it, I'd recommend continuing for longer for other intestinal worms though]. After that you can add less to your feed, as you are just preventing any new parasites from settling in, that have been picked up in the environment. I'm not familiar how it will work with ruminants as I don't own any, but would think that with grazers/browsers a good rotational system is also needed in order to control parasites in the ground. If you dry lot or have only limited space for your animals on a small homestead, you need to consider broadcasting it in your runs and barns as well, as you will have a parasite load in the ground too [plus it will help with odor control and flies].


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Those experiences are evidence. *They aren't proof*, but they're evidence


Science shows their "evidence" is incorrect, and based on false assumptions.



> In the relatively short time since I graduated from med school there have been a lot of tremendous new discoveries.


If youve been to med school, you should understand that anecdotes are meaningless without controlled testing to *verify* the hypothesis.

In the case of all these claims, it's simply not true.

It doesn't mean anyone is "stupid"
That's YOUR word.

It means they are making false *assumptions*


----------



## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Science shows their "evidence" is incorrect, and based on false assumptions.


No. That's your interpretation. Their "assumptions" (observations) are their own, and though they haven't been scientifically proven, "not proven" does not equal "incorrect".

_Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. _ (A basic rule of science.)


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Science shows their "evidence" is incorrect, and based on false assumptions.


Science does not show that at all. No controlled study has been done with DE used in treating joint pain, for example. So science cannot say the person who posted that it helped them was incorrect. It's possible it wasn't really the DE, but science certainly has not made that determination.



> If youve been to med school, you should understand that anecdotes are meaningless without controlled testing to *verify* the hypothesis.


Also not true. Anecdotal evidence is not proof of anything, but it's also not meaningless.



> In the case of all these claims, it's simply not true.
> 
> It doesn't mean anyone is "stupid"
> That's YOUR word.
> ...


Yeah, it's my word for the way you've treated people in this thread who have graciously answered the question the OP posed. It's downright rude. You have no way to know that the people who take DE derive no benefit from it, so saying it's not true is the epitome of arrogance. They have no reason to lie about it, unless you think they're all selling the stuff.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

My 10 year old dog who has been guarding my livestock since she was a pup, has never
seen a vet, never had any medication, never been vaccinated. She takes her DE
daily.

Then there's my horses, mules, donkeys, bovine, poultry, swine, etc. etc., who
also don't know what a vet looks like. And can't forget all the healthy mule
foals that have been born from my Mammoth jack and broodmare band. They, too,
take their DE daily. The pigs provide this porkaholic with a constant supply of
pork. The poultry provide plenty of eggs. Never even had a sick chicken.

And I, don't remember how many years it's been since I've seen a doctor. But I'm
only 72.

Why would I need 'scientific' proof when I saw results the first week I took DE. And have seen it work for many years on everything that breathes around here.

If you can't get sickness or diseases, you always feel great and have lots of energy.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Anyone can become a DE dealer. I have no desire to do so. And no one sends me a check for talking about DE. I talk about it because I hate to see humans and critters suffer when there's an inexpensive and safe fix. We who use DE become preachers of the product.


----------



## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

ryanthomas said:


> Yeah, it's my word for the way you've treated people in this thread who have graciously answered the question the OP posed. It's downright *rude*. You have no way to know that the people who take DE derive no benefit from it, so saying it's not true is the *epitome of arrogance*. They have no reason to lie about it, unless you think they're all selling the stuff.


Unfortunately, it has become the expected response-type from BFF, should you express disagreement. His rash inferences ruin many otherwise 'civil' threads, but I just remind myself that it's "mind over matter". I no longer _mind_, because his opinions don't _matter_.


----------



## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

pancho said:


> Most people who use DE do not do side by side comparison. There is no control group. They either use DE or they don't. Their animals may be in good health. Their animals may well be in good shape without the DE. Without the use of control groups it is impossible to tell if DE works.
> Science does their research with control groups. They have one group fed DE, one group fed no DE, and another group using conventional wormers. Everything else is the same.
> Their findings are that DE does not kill worms inside of animals. Those fed DE have the same worms in the same number as those fed no DE.


the OP was not talking about using DE for worming, or at least that was the ASSUMPTION I made.

I have never told others to use DE for worming, but I do spread the word about the mass reduction in flies. We have folks commenting on how we have 
very few flies for the amount of animals we have and I _know_ that is a direct result of using DE in their feed. 

Last Spring we had kazillions (note, the scientific word) of flies all over our screens and I was horrified, then realized I had not added DE to the last bags of feed we had brought in. I went out and "dosed" the feed bins and within a day or two no more flies and we had no more bouts of "kazillions" of flies.

Scientific? 
absolutely, as results by "official" scientists are brought about by observations, and getting the same results over and over again.

I don't need no stinking Official stamp of approval to tell me what I can already observe on my own.
Many of our "approved" modern medicines came from herbal medicine practiced by our ancestors and they figured it out all by themselves without control studies, the FDA and I imagine, in spite of the naysayers.


----------



## "SPIKE" (Dec 7, 2011)

Is there scientific proof that there are UFOs? 
Is there scientific proof that there are no UFOs?

A lot of people claim to have seen them.:shrug:

SPIKE


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

A person can swallow a rock each day of their life and say the rock has improved their health. In their case it may be true. A person's mind is a powerful thing. If a person tells themselves they feel better each day they will usually feel better each day.
Eating a rock will not help or hurt. It comes out of the body in the same shape as it goes in. 
If a person needs help to make themselves feel better they should seek that help. If their help involves eating a rock they should continue to do so.

Scientific tests have proven a placebo works in some cases. A rock can be a placebo.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

pancho said:


> Eating a rock will not help or hurt. It comes out of the body in the same shape as it goes in.


That may not be true. The body may leach miniscule pieces of the rock out of it. Or it may not. But I agree with you that the placebo effect could be part of it, or all of it in some cases.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> But I agree with you that the placebo effect could be part of it, or *all of it *in some cases.


It has to be *all of it*, or the effects could be duplicated in a lab



> *No controlled study *has been done with DE used in treating joint pain


That's your assumption.
It's most likely false, since DE HAS been approved by the FDA for other uses, none of which happen to be *medicinal*


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Unfortunately, it has become *the expected response*-type from BFF, should you express disagreement


Yes, verifiable *facts* are my typical response.


----------



## terri46355 (May 16, 2003)

One thought on why there hasn't been more studies on the use of DE as a supplement... There is no profit for Big Pharma in conducting the studies. If it works, no one would buy the drug when they can get a 50 lb bag at the feed store for $25 and treat themselves.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

It costs big bucks to have the FDA approve products and to keep the products on the shelves. Products have to sicken / kill a lot of folks before they'll take them off the shelves and even then they sometimes don't. Wanna pay for it? Hope not. I avoid FDA products as much as I can.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It has to be *all of it*, or the effects could be duplicated in a lab
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How could you possibly know that the effects could not be duplicated in a lab when those effects have not been tested in a lab? That's not an assumption. I actually searched clinical trials. I didn't find a single relevant study. If I missed one, feel free to do your own research and show us the FACTS, not your opinion of "it has to be" or "most likely false."

Here's an interesting study I found about DE lowering cholesterol, though. It isn't definitive because there was no placebo group, but this is how research works. Medicine is often inspired by anecdotal evidence to do a study with measurable indicators looking for correlation, and then attempt to confirm causation with placebo-controlled trials.



> Individuals administered orally 250 mg diatomaceous earth three-times daily during an 8 weeks observation period. Serum concentrations of cholesterol, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglycerides levels were measured before study entry, every second week during the period of diatomaceous earth intake and 4 weeks after stop of intake. Compared to baseline (285.8 +/- 37.5 mg/dl = 7.40 +/- 0.97 mM) diatomaceous earth intake was associated with a significant reduction of serum cholesterol at any time point, reaching a minimum on week 6 (248.1 mg/dl = 6.43 mM, -13.2% from baseline; p<0.001). Also low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (week 4: p<0.05) and triglycerides levels decreased (week 2: p<0.05, week 4: p<0.01).
> 
> [...]
> 
> *Diatomaceous earth, a bioproduct, is capable of reducing blood cholesterol and positively influencing lipid metabolism in humans. Placebo-controlled studies will be necessary to confirm our findings.*


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9533930


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

(Diatomaceous earth, a bioproduct, is capable of reducing blood cholesterol and positively influencing lipid metabolism in humans. Placebo-controlled studies will be necessary to confirm our findings)

How is it possible to believe such a statement? This is an example of why people get wild ideas about a product. It is impossible to say with any certainity what cause any change without something for comparison.
Might as well have said, cloudy days are capable of reducing blood cholesterol. It would be just as true.


----------



## "SPIKE" (Dec 7, 2011)

pancho said:


> (Diatomaceous earth, a bioproduct, is capable of reducing blood cholesterol and positively influencing lipid metabolism in humans. Placebo-controlled studies will be necessary to confirm our findings)
> 
> How is it possible to believe such a statement? This is an example of why people get wild ideas about a product. It is impossible to say with any certainity what cause any change without something for comparison.
> *Might as well have said, cloudy days are capable of reducing blood cholesterol. It would be just as true*.


Well Pancho, with all due respect don't you think the bolded statement in your above quote was a bit extreme and /or just down right rediculous.
Here is the whole article about cholesterol. It is a study from educated medical poeple. Read the last sentence about "confirming their findings".



Diatomaceous earth lowers blood cholesterol concentrations.
Wachter H, Lechleitner M, Artner-Dworzak E, Hausen A, Jarosch E, Widner B, Patsch J, Pfeiffer K, Fuchs D.
SourceInstitute of Medical Chemistry and Biochemistry, University of Innsbruck, Fritz Pregl Strasse 3, Innsbruck, A-6020, Austria.

Abstract
In this study a potential influence of diatomaceus earth to lower blood cholesterol was investigated. During 12 weeks we monitored serum lipid concentrations in 19 healthy individuals with a history of moderate hypercholesterinemia (9 females, 10 males, aged 35 - 67 years). Individuals administered orally 250 mg diatomaceous earth three-times daily during an 8 weeks observation period. Serum concentrations of cholesterol, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglycerides levels were measured before study entry, every second week during the period of diatomaceous earth intake and 4 weeks after stop of intake. Compared to baseline (285.8 +/- 37.5 mg/dl = 7.40 +/- 0.97 mM) diatomaceous earth intake was associated with a significant reduction of serum cholesterol at any time point, reaching a minimum on week 6 (248.1 mg/dl = 6.43 mM, -13.2% from baseline; p<0.001). Also low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (week 4: p<0.05) and triglycerides levels decreased (week 2: p<0.05, week 4: p<0.01). Four weeks after intake of diatomaceous earth was stopped, serum cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglycerides still remained low and also the increase of high-density lipoprotein cholesterol became significant (p<0.05). Diatomaceous earth, a bioproduct, is capable of reducing blood cholesterol and positively influencing lipid metabolism in humans. Placebo-controlled studies will be necessary to confirm our findings.

PMID:9533930[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

SPIKE


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

pancho said:


> (Diatomaceous earth, a bioproduct, is capable of reducing blood cholesterol and positively influencing lipid metabolism in humans. Placebo-controlled studies will be necessary to confirm our findings)
> 
> How is it possible to believe such a statement? This is an example of why people get wild ideas about a product. It is impossible to say with any certainity what cause any change without something for comparison.
> Might as well have said, cloudy days are capable of reducing blood cholesterol. It would be just as true.


It isn't a definitive statement. It's a statement of the findings of the study. That's how science works. You test something and report your findings. And you include the caveat that it hasn't been confirmed by placebo-controlled studies. For the record, there was comparison, though. They took measurements before, during, and after. Choose to believe it or not. That's fine. But it is a scientific study, even if it goes against your opinion.


----------



## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

J.T.M. said:


> I chain smoke 3-4 paks of ciggs. a day ,and I don't have worms therefore.........


Agreed! And I find tobacco juice to be a miracle killer of garden slugs and other pests, yet it's safe for human use!

After a good smoke, I can challenge anyone to a run around the block!

It's also amazin how tobacco clarifies and sharpens the mind!


----------



## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

I like to check sources.

** No such place as Bunker Farms in Mesa, AZ

** I found someone else was checking the same field reports on the internet:

"Just about anywhere you go on the web theres references made to studies done by a M.F. Petty DVM. I tried to find these published papers to no avail.I then tried to research DR.Petty, As far as the Alabama Veterinarian assoc. is concerned there has never been an M.F. Petty liscensed,neither is there anyone of that name liscensed with the AVMA."
http://www.backwoodshome.com/forum/vb/archive/index.php/t-18081.html

** No such place as Four Winds Farm in Orlando, FLA

** No such person or papers published by C. S. Mangen, DVM (other than these suspect field reports)

** No such place as Midland Animal clinic, Midland TX. There is a Midland Animal Center, but no staff ever worked there by name of O.C. Collins DVM


I don't have time to go chasing after the rest of these ghosts. So I will rest my case.







Rogo said:


> All you naysayers with your myths can skip this message. For those who have written to me, I thought I'd include these field reports so all can see them:
> 
> 
> FIELD REPORT - FEEDING CODEX FOOD-GRADE DIATOMACEOUS
> ...


----------



## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

BillHoo said:


> I like to check sources.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...


I picked one at random, just for self-verification, and found this:

http://www.woodsdressage.com/four_winds_farm.html

They operate out of Ocala, but do a mobile horse business in several other towns, including Orlando. That means someone may have messed up the town, but most likely not the business.

So, I checked the vet, MF Petty. In the backwood's home forums... http://www.backwoodshome.com/forum/vb/showthread.php?t=18081 ... someone else questioned his existence and reported back with this:



> I found this reference to M.F. Petty, DVM in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association&#8206; back in 1963.
> 
> "B. F. Hoerlein, DVM, Ph.D.; AB Few, DVM; MF Petty, DVM ... Few (1961) was a Research Fellow and Dr. Petty (1960) a Student Fellow of the Morris Animal Foundation."


This guy's probably dead by now.


So many threads these days get thrown out of whack with trivial over-analyzing (see above). The way I see it, those that like what DE does for them, good for you and have at it! If you don't believe that the users' personal observations are true (you certainly can't prove that), by all means, don't use it! 

I remember a DE thread from a year or two or three ago, and I read an online report that the FDA declined to test it for ingestion because (due to it's "all natural" properties) it isn't a "drug". Do I have a link? No. Did I link to it way back when? I don't remember... but, I'm not going to look to see. I'll leave that to the anal retentive members.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> It isn't a definitive statement. It's a statement of the findings of the study. That's how science works. You test something and report your findings. And you include the caveat that it hasn't been confirmed by placebo-controlled studies. For the record, there was comparison, though. They took measurements before, during, and after. Choose to believe it or not. That's fine. But it is a scientific study, even if it goes against your opinion.


My opinion does not really matter.
Neither does the people who performed this "test".
How do they know or even have any idea what caused any change?
Things change. Enviorment changes. Food changes. The body changes.
That is why if there is no control group the test is useless. Any changes noted could be because of many different things. It is impossible to know what caused the change as they have nothing to compare it to.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

EasyDay said:


> I picked one at random, just for self-verification, and found this:
> 
> http://www.woodsdressage.com/four_winds_farm.html
> 
> ...


Oh Hey! I know Wood's Dressage! My daughter clinics with Bill (he travels up here a few times a year) in fact, her regular trainer is staying with he and his wife right now in Florida. I've never heard any mention of DE but I can find out if he uses it.


----------



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> Oh Hey! I know Wood's Dressage! My daughter clinics with Bill (he travels up here a few times a year) in fact, her regular trainer is staying with he and his wife right now in Florida. I've never heard any mention of DE but I can find out if he uses it.


I should have looked more closely at the original link. I'm sure Woods Dressage is not the Four Winds from Orlando. Woods Dressage was Four Winds when they were in Massachusetts, not in Florida.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

Year ago, when I started feeding DE to my critters, I periodically took in fresh manure samples from several critters so the vet could do fecal tests. This is the best way to test ANY dewormer. 

Soon the vets told me to stop bringing in samples since they all had been clean. Several of those vets started feeding DE to their own stock.

Cholesterol (sp?) -- I have many friends who are doctors. I'm not a patient of any of them, so they talk to you different.
They've told me not to bother being tested. They along with big pharma, started this thing to fatten their wallets. They also have said that doctors are asking patients to get their count down too low, since cholesterol is needed for many body functions.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

pancho said:


> My opinion does not really matter.
> Neither does the people who performed this "test".
> How do they know or even have any idea what caused any change?
> Things change. Enviorment changes. Food changes. The body changes.
> That is why if there is no control group the test is useless. Any changes noted could be because of many different things. It is impossible to know what caused the change as they have nothing to compare it to.


They don't know for sure. But the study isn't useless. It shows a correlation. That's a great first step. The researchers tested it on a group of people, not just one. It's very unlikely that a group of people would have similar positive changes at roughly the same time but from different causes while all taking part in the study. Nothing is a sure thing, not even with science. But it was enough evidence to show findings.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> For the record, there was comparison, though. They took measurements before, during, and after. Choose to believe it or not. That's fine. But it is *a scientific study*, even if it goes against your opinion.


It's not very "scientific" with no control group, no placebos, and no information as to whether other factors such as DIETS were controlled.

It's just another fabricated "study" to hype DE


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> How could you possibly know that the effects could not be duplicated in a lab when those effects have not been tested in a lab? That's not an assumption. I actually searched clinical trials. I didn't find a single relevant study


If the producers of DE WANT to make the claim, they have to do the studies.
If they haven'[t been done, it's because folks are smart enough to realize it's* pointless*, since it's nothing but powdered rock



> But it was enough evidence to show findings.


The "finding" was they need a REAL study

If it REALLY did the things evreyone claims, it would be proclaimed a "miracle drug", and Drs all over the world would be prescribing it


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's not very "scientific" with no control group, no placebos, and no information as to whether other factors such as DIETS were controlled.
> 
> It's just another fabricated "study" to hype DE


Take it up with science. This methodology is routine. I don't know the background of the researchers for that study, but you've shown no reason to believe they're hyping anything. You've also shown no studies that show DE doesn't work, so you have even less evidence than the people who claim it does.

ETA: For what it's worth, what I posted was just an abstract, not the whole study. It may very well talk about the diet factor in the actual study.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> You've also shown no studies that show DE doesn't work


You don't need a "study" to prove an* INERT *substance has no effect,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert



> In English, to be inert is to be in a state of *doing little or nothing*.





> There is no available scientific evidence that supports the health claims about diatomaceous earth.
> 
> Dr. Risk Rasby, professor of Animal Science at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, states that although diatomaceous earth is known to kill insects, its effect on intestinal parasites in animals has not yet been reported.


http://www.ehow.com/facts_5644674_human-nutritional-benefits-diatomaceous-earth.html


> There have been 4 or 5 scientific studies and the data consistently show that diatomaceous earth does not kill worms in goats although one study did show that at a very high level (5% of the diet), it had a slight effect.


http://www.scsrpc.org/SCSRPC/Publications/part5.htm





> Given that the level of dust is already quite high in barns, diatomaceous earth does not seem appropriate when the animals are fed indoors.
> 
> The main motivation for adding diatomaceous earth to rations should not be to control internal parasites. If it is to be used, it is important to use non-calcined diatomaceous earth and without additives for insecticide use


http://eap.mcgill.ca/agrobio/ab370-04e.htm





> According to Anne Zajac, DVM, PhD, Virginia-Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine, Virginia Tech, Blackburg, VA, there have been several studies done by parasitologists in different parts of the country that have found no beneficial effect to feeding it or offering it as mineral.


http://www.motesclearcreekfarms.com/asp/articles/DE.asp


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You don't need a "study" to prove an* INERT *substance has no effect,


There you go *assuming* that it's inert. Maybe it isn't. Your links are all about worms in livestock. Some people did make claims about worming animals with DE, but you're responding to my post about its use in humans for non-parasitic conditions. And no offense, but you're really not qualified in that area. Highly respected medical doctors who have published thousands of studies in peer-reviewed journals have a lot more authority.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

I have never seen so much negativity on a forum thread. Makes me wonder if those who are so negative are in a field competing with DE. I know doctors, vets, pharmaceutical companies, pharmacists, chemicals companies, etc. don't want us using DE. Perhaps they're in one of those fields.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

The negativity could be because people are claiming that DE cures terminal diseases when there has never been an iota of proof that it does. Declarations of near miraculous curing with absolutely no evidence smacks of snake oil salesmen and that irritates many people, including myself. 

Imagine a mammal inhaling all of this thousands sharp edges, especially Crystalline silica because it can cause silicosis.


----------



## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Irish Pixie said:


> The negativity could be because people are claiming that *DE cures terminal diseases when there has never been an iota of proof that it does*. Declarations of near miraculous curing with absolutely no evidence smacks of snake oil salesmen and that irritates many people, including myself.
> 
> Imagine a mammal inhaling all of this thousands sharp edges, especially Crystalline silica because it can cause silicosis.


Particularly when those of us reading the thread either have a loved one with a non-curable disease or have one ourselves.

Ditto. Reminds me of an informercial.  And I seriously doubt there is some big plan to cover up the 'fact' that DE cures so many ills- particularly without any... wait for it.... PROOF. Paranoia can run rampant out there.....

All those silly, silly doctors out there.... amassing all those thousands of dollars in student debt and causing all those who suffer such pain and monetary issues... when all they need to do is prescribe a spoonful of dirt a day. Shame on them.


----------



## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

Methinks this thread has run it's gammot.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> Particularly when those of us reading the thread either have a loved one with a non-curable disease or have one ourselves.
> 
> Ditto. Reminds me of an informercial.  And I seriously doubt there is some big plan to cover up the 'fact' that DE cures so many ills- particularly without any... wait for it.... PROOF. Paranoia can run rampant out there.....
> 
> All those silly, silly doctors out there.... amassing all those thousands of dollars in student debt and causing all those who suffer such pain and monetary issues... when all they need to do is prescribe a spoonful of dirt a day. Shame on them.


Exactly. All those silly, silly Veterinarians too. :thumb:


----------



## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

What folks keep overlooking here is, no one here is trying to sell you a product.
You can move to a new thread as simply/quickly as you can change the channel when infomercials come on. Just sayin'


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Some "folks" like proof with a statement that DE cures terminal illnesses, we're silly that way. Seriously, someone could read that DE cures AIDS and cancer and actually believe it. It's my duty to dispell the insanity.  The "pro DEers" can turn the channel (so to speak) as well. I guess the thread hasn't run it's gamut yet.


----------



## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> The negativity could be because *people* are claiming that DE cures terminal diseases when there has never been an iota of proof that it does. Declarations of near miraculous curing with absolutely no evidence smacks of snake oil salesmen and that irritates many people, including myself.
> 
> Imagine a mammal inhaling all of this thousands sharp edges, especially Crystalline silica because it can cause silicosis.



Only *one* poster stated that DE cured everything, don't lump everyone who finds DE to be beneficial in some way.

this thread has been interesting in the amount of people offended by those who like & use DE.

so far those of us who do, have been compared to snake oil salesmen, mentally ill and suffering from delusions and people who believe in UFO's & people who could think eating a rock could be beneficial and so on.

Geez, people.

I have used DE for over 30 years in my garden and with my animals, I am not dying from renal failure, do not have lung problems, do not think UFO's abducted me and am not certifiably mentally ill and suffering from delusions. I also do not believe DE cures any terminal illnesses and I don't sell DE.

lots of knee jerk reactions on this thread.


----------



## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> If the producers of DE WANT to make the claim, they have to do the studies.
> If they haven'[t been done, it's because folks are smart enough to realize it's* pointless*, since it's nothing but powdered rock
> 
> 
> ...


And Big Pharma would have taken it as their own. All they have to do is patent a particular drug PROCESS for manufacturing it. Merck for example had most of their big money making patents expire in 2000 (held for 50 years before generic pharma is allowed to make copycats). 

Mercks lawyers found a loophole. If you change the process to improve the product, you can apply for an extension. So they cahnged the process for packaging some of the drugs noting that ie. "bubble packing aspirin keeps the product fresher for the consumer". Some copycat drug makers went out of business waiting for those patent extensions to expire so they could ship their product which had to be destroyed when it went bad.

I can see...........Diatomica by Bristol-Myers Squib. Purified diatamaceous earth using a patented pill deployment process brings you the wonders of DE from the environmentally friendly folks at Bristol-Myers! Diatomica - It's gentle on your digestion and pure because of our patented "micro-screening" process - unlike some DE sources which include impurities like clay and fecal contaminants. Only $20 for a 50 capsule bottle.

And ANY of the Big Pharmas can do that and make far more money than some bulk dealer.

But they won't because there are no real studies that proves that it works. And they do not want to get sued for millions when someone gets sick or dies because the product did not cure what it claimed.

Hey! I'm not the food police. Eat what you want. To everyone else. Go forward with eyes open.


----------



## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

Ellie Mae said:


> Only *one* ...this thread has been interesting in the amount of people offended by those who like & use DE.....


That's because we care about you Ellie!


----------



## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

At the turn of the century, people used to take radium pills and sipping radium water. They swore up and down that it was a cure all and gave them more energy, and made them stronger.

Then the cancer and severe bone degeneration kicked in.... Dead men, tell no tales.


----------



## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)




----------



## BillHoo (Mar 16, 2005)

Cabin Fever said:


>



Thanks for reigning me in!

....I haven't had my colloidal silver today.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

BillHoo said:


> Thanks for reigning me in!
> 
> ....I haven't had my colloidal silver today.


:bouncy: ound: :thumb:


----------



## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

BillHoo said:


> Thanks for reigning me in!
> 
> ....I haven't had my colloidal silver today.


I took my silver yesterday. It was a 1961 quarter. Crapped out two dimes and a nickel this morning. It was a good thing, I needed the CHANGE!


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> They don't know for sure. But the study isn't useless. It shows a correlation. That's a great first step. The researchers tested it on a group of people, not just one. It's very unlikely that a group of people would have similar positive changes at roughly the same time but from different causes while all taking part in the study. Nothing is a sure thing, not even with science. But it was enough evidence to show findings.


I agree that it is a starting place. Every test has to start somewhere. I just think they should have completed the test before releasing info. If they were going to do a test they should do it the right way and not do half a job. Many people will see the results they posted and form an opinion about the product that may or may not be true.

Before posting the statement then did they should have completed the test or waited to release the info.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Many of the people discussing DE on this thread have tried it.
Some have had success. Some have had failures.
Why should the thread be for only those who have had success?


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

All I'm saying is I get my medical information from medical doctors. If I have a question about sheep, I'll ask a sheep farmer.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Ellie Mae said:


> Only *one* poster stated that DE cured everything, don't lump everyone who finds DE to be beneficial in some way.


That's the truth. There's a lot of middle ground between "it cures everything" and "it is completely useless."


----------



## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

Cabin Fever said:


> I took my silver yesterday. It was a 1961 quarter. Crapped out two dimes and a nickel this morning. It was a good thing, I needed the CHANGE!


Don't we all, CF- don't we all.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

pancho said:


> Many of the people discussing DE on this thread have tried it.
> Some have had success. Some have had failures.
> Why should the thread be for only those who have had success?


It's one thing to post your experience of it not working when you tried it for worming your chickens. It's another to make broad statements that it cannot possibly work for anything anyone wants to use it for.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> There you go* assuming that it's inert*. Maybe it isn't. Your links are all about worms in livestock. Some people did make claims about worming animals with DE, but you're responding to my post about its use in humans for non-parasitic conditions. And no offense, but you're really not qualified in that area. Highly respected medical doctors who have published *thousands of studies *in peer-reviewed journals have a lot more authority.


I'm not "asssuming" anything.

Silicon Dioxide is an inert substance, and THAT is what makes up about 90% of DE

So show the "thousands of studies" that *say* conclusively DE cures everything


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> All I'm saying is I get my medical information *from medical doctors*. If I have a question about sheep, I'll ask a sheep farmer.


LOL

Yet you ignore the MD's and DVM's who *did* studies and say it doesn't work at all


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> So show the "thousands of studies" that *say* conclusively DE cures everything


I never made such a claim. The thousands of studies I referenced were in regard to the qualifications of the researchers who did the one study I did post.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> LOL
> 
> Yet you ignore the MD's and DVM's who *did* studies and say it doesn't work at all


I haven't seen any of those studies yet, except the ones you posted about it being used for worming.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

I've talked about this thread with others who take DE. They just laughed and said they all know naysayers and just ignore them. I told them there's always some who will ask me privately about taking DE for some condition they have. And they all thank me for being able to get rid of the condition. And it's happened here. That's why I talk about DE.

No, I won't tell you who. Their privacy is important. If they want to tell you, they will. In the past, I've seen some gloat while telling naysayers on that forum how wrong they are. Some still don't believe them. So be it. At least those folks are free from the condition.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

I had never even heard of people taking this stuff before I read this thread, but I'm considering trying it myself now. I'll probably monitor my renal function just to be sure it's safe, but I don't see any reason not to give it a go. It's cheap and readily available.


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

And I tell people my experience so their animals don't have to suffer. Friends don't let friends do DE! Or at least not to rely on it! Reminds me of a joke.

The Psychiatrist was escorting a patient from one Psychiatric Hospital to another. They were travelling by train, and the Psychiatrist was intrigued to see the patient tearing up bits of paper and throwing them out of the window.

&#8220;What are you doing that for?&#8221; asked the Psychiatrist.

&#8220;It&#8217;s to keep the elephants away !&#8221; answered the patient.

&#8220;But there are no elephants in Surrey,&#8221; pointed out the Psychiatrist.

&#8220;Effective, isn&#8217;t it?&#8221; was the logical answer.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted by Ellie Mae
> Only one ...this thread has been interesting in the amount of people *offended* by those who like & use DE.....


I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not "offended" at all

I'm just presenting facts to counter the fiction.

If *reality *offends anyone, that's their problem


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Ross said:


> And I tell people my experience so their animals don't have to suffer. Friends don't let friends do DE! Or at least not to rely on it!


I appreciate you sharing your experience. I'll keep it in mind with my own livestock.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

DE has been used for thousands of years, its uses handed down by word of mouth. I found out about it about 35 years ago. Wish I had known about it when my dad was alive; he could have lived longer.

World Minerals owns most of the DE deposits in the U.S. Perma-Guard is their largest dealer. They ship all over the world. Since they can't make claims, they go by testimonials.


=== poster stated that DE cured everything ===


Not me. I stated that DE prevents, reverses, cures most incurable diseases.
I've seen it and I've heard it from different folks. 
I wouldn't want to go back to the conditions I was living with. And I certainly don't want what my family has put in my genes -- cancer, diabetes, macular degeneration, and who knows what else.

I do love that after wearing glasses and contact lenses for over 50 years, they are no longer needed for near or distance. Eye doctor wrote down my RX on his pad and I almost fell out of the chair -- 20/20 in one eye, 20/30 in the other. My drivers license says 'no restrictions' and I'm 72. I can read a map or any small print holding it at a normal distance, not with outstretched arms.

My 93 year old mom, 4'10" and 85 pounds fell. The doctor couldn't figure out why she didn't break anything. She looked up at him and said, "it's because I'm taking the stuff that you told me wouldn't do me any good." And then she walked away. Yep, takes DE. She needs no prescriptions or medications.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

The above post is an example showing why people take the time to try to show the truth about DE.


----------



## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

pancho said:


> The above post is an example showing why people take the time to try to show the truth about DE.


he may not have proof that it helped, but no one also has proof to show it didn't.

just because you find it hard to believe, does not make it so in his personal experience.

and for those of you who need "proof" or studies that DE is at least considered harmless and doesn't cause renal failure, lung diseases, delusions, or UFO's to visit, look to the FDA who approved it as an additive to food for the public's consumption. 
I'll bet many of you have foods in your pantry with DE in it right now, unless you grow and produce all your own foods, especially grains.
I dunno why, but I sure find that funny after reading some of the posts on here.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ellie Mae said:


> he may not have proof that it helped, but no one also has proof to show it didn't.
> 
> just because you find it hard to believe, does not make it so in his personal experience.
> 
> ...


Couple of things that might help you.

He isn't a he.
DE is added to many foods, medicines, and grains.
It might help to check why DE is added to these products.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

pancho said:


> The above post is an example showing why people take the time to try to show the truth about DE.


I agree with you on that. I'm very skeptical that DE can do all the things Rogo claims, but I also am not even remotely convinced that it's completely useless. And what's the harm in giving it a try if you're going to die anyway? At 29 years old, I have had a type of cancer for over five years that will almost certainly kill me eventually. I have gone through conventional treatments only to get more sick. A few years ago I decided against doing any more of the currently available conventional treatments, and I have long outlived the average of patients who undergo those conventional treatments. If I've already decided not to accept the medical "cures" there's really not much risk in throwing a little diatomaceous earth at the cancer. Maybe it will help, maybe it won't. Obviously, that route isn't for everyone and I would not advise anyone to rely on DE to save their life.

But my whole point is that in science we use reason and balance to consider evidence. Rarely will you hear scientists make broad absolute statements. They're always hedging. People claiming without proof that something does nothing are just as wrong as people who claim without proof that it cures everything.


----------



## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

pancho said:


> Couple of things that might help you.
> 
> He isn't a he.
> DE is added to many foods, medicines, and grains.
> It might help to check why DE is added to these products.



hard to tell someone's gender on here at times, my apologies to Rogo.

and I know why DE is added to foods, but alot of folks don't know many ready made foods contain DE.

I mentioned it to point out to the one's who are claiming catastrophic health effects from ingesting it that they too are probably eating it, just not aware and on purpose.

Those who are claiming that DE will cause horrible side effects are scare mongering without proof just as they accuse those who claim benefits without major studies and proof.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

If you want to know how to take DE or how to feed it to your critters, drop me a note. Put DE in the Subject line.

rogo16 @ yahoo.com (Remove spaces)

I've got a 24 year old mule waiting to go on a tough mountain ride for most of the day. Hope you enjoy your day as much as I will.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Those who are claiming that DE will cause *horrible side effects *are scare mongering without proof just as they accuse those who claim benefits without major studies and proof.


Who said anything about "side effects"?

It's INERT.
It doesn't DO anything

Ask yourself this:

IF DE has such wonderful benefits, WHY is it that no one has done the research to PROVE it?

Those who claim it works offer "proof" in the form of a "study" done over 20 years ago that only concludes "more testing is needed".

WHY hasn't anyone done that testing if it *REALLY* showed so much potential?

(The* answer *is it doesn't DO anything at all, other than kill some insects)

It's just simple logic


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Who said anything about "side effects"?
> 
> It's INERT.
> It doesn't DO anything
> ...


I think naturelover said it will cause kidney problems. That's the only side effect I've seen anyone mention, but I don't remember if she included a source for that. As for the rest of your post, it does seem like a logical conclusion, but logical doesn't always equal true in this world. There are many reasons that a lot of potentially useful things aren't studied. To each his own.

For the record, I haven't claimed that DE does anything. I have no way of knowing if it does. My only contention has been that MAYBE it does, and the only clinical trial I could find on DE said the same thing.


----------



## Ellie Mae (Jan 18, 2011)

Am not up to reading back through 150+ posts to find who said what about the potential "side effects", a word I used to describe what others have equated with ingesting or using DE...

I recall a comparison to eating glass, some kind of lung disorder from breathing it, kidney issues and renal failure. I call those side effects.

I do not have a link, or a study handy, but if I recall correctly, St.John's wort is a prime example of a group of people using a non mainstream alternative for depression with some good results, that was then taken and studied for pro's and con's and it is now what I would consider known as a common herbal remedy for depression and sold in stores. 

Does that mean it did not help people with mood disorders until an "official" study was done?

With some of the responses I have read on just this thread alone to anyone who dares admit they take DE, I see why it would not become something people are willing to readily share with others. 
I am strong enough to take ridicule and stand my ground, but there are others who are afraid to either be rejected by others on an internet forum or be made a laughing stock.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ellie Mae said:


> hard to tell someone's gender on here at times, my apologies to Rogo.
> 
> and I know why DE is added to foods, but alot of folks don't know many ready made foods contain DE.
> 
> ...


That last sentence is very true.
A person can eat all of the DE they want and it probably won't do much more than dry them out a little. DE would have to be the majority of their diet before it did much damage.
Breathing DE inside of the lungs is completely different. It is easy to find out all of the lawsuits against DE manufactures in the past. Many safety regulations were enacted to prevent lung problems in DE mines.

Most of the people here have heard all of the miracles Rogo claimes DE will do.
We have had these discussions in the past. DE will not cure disease. DE will not mend broken bones. It isn't some miracle drug.


----------



## barnyardgal (Sep 21, 2009)

Wow~I say everyone use *THEIR* own judgement in using the product...There is good & bad in everything we put in our mouth~~


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

DE has a use.
As long as it is in its dry form it will kill insects.
It can be used as a drying agent.
It has many uses.

It can also cause lung problems if breathed in.
Anyone who does not believe this can do research on lawsuits against DE manufactures and see what laws were enacted to protect people who worked in DE mines.
Also take note of the protective equipment that is mandatory to workers in DE mines.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

barnyardgal said:


> Wow~I say everyone use *THEIR* own judgement in using the product...There is good & bad in everything we put in our mouth~~


I agree.


----------



## terri46355 (May 16, 2003)

And a wise man said over 2,000 years ago that we should be more careful about what comes out of our mouths than what goes in.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> the only clinical trial I could find on DE said the same thing.


The trial you showed concluded a* REAL *study was needed.

If the companies that mine, process and distribute DE spend millions of dollars already, WHY is it they won't spend a few hundred thousand to do *actual clinical trials *that PROVE their health benefit claims, and INCREASE the value of their product?

(Here's why)

http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/diatomite/



> Diatomite is a chalk-like, soft, friable, earthy, very fine-grained, siliceous *sedimentary rock*, usually light in color (white if pure, commonly buff to gray in situ, and rarely black).
> 
> It is very finely porous, very low in density (floating on water at least until saturated), and essentially *chemically inert *in most liquids and gases. It also has low thermal conductivity and a rather high fusion point.
> 
> Diatomite is now used principally as a filter aid; but it has many other applications, such as an absorbent for industrial spills and as pet litter, a filler in a variety of products from paints to dry chemicals, an insulation material as sawn and molded shapes as well as loose granular, a mild abrasive in polishes, and a silica additive in cement and various other compounds.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> The trial you showed concluded a* REAL *study was needed.
> 
> If the companies that mine, process and distribute DE spend millions of dollars already, WHY is it they won't spend a few hundred thousand to do *actual clinical trials *that PROVE their health benefit claims, and INCREASE the value of their product?
> 
> ...


So don't use it. I have more evidence for my position than you have for yours. The study I posted was an actual clinical trial, of which you conveniently ignore the first half of the conclusion. For what it's worth, clinical trials usually cost millions. The miners are doing fine without them, probably with repeat customers.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Also, silica may be "essentially chemically inert in most liquids and gases," but it is not completely chemically inert. I just pulled a chemistry book off my shelf and found that it says "silica is somewhat soluble in water and in dilute acids." Wow, imagine that. Our stomachs use acid to help digest what we put in our mouths. And don't forget all those other trace minerals also in DE. There's also a possibility that there are mechanical/biological effects apart from any chemical action. Even with eight beers in me I can shoot holes in uneducated opinions.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> So don't use it. I have more evidence for my position than you have for yours. The study I posted was an actual clinical trial, of which you conveniently ignore the first half of the conclusion. For what it's worth, clinical trials usually cost millions. The miners are doing fine without them, probably with repeat customers.


The miners are doing fine by selling DE for its intended purpose much like those Bearfootfarm has listed.
Do you actually think there is enough people buying DE for a miracle cure to matter?
Not a lot of people will eat kitty litter and try to tell everyone it is a miracle cure for all diseases and even broken bones.
Not a lot of people drink paint for its ability to cure arthritis.
Not a lot of people use insulation as eye drops to inprove eyesight.
Not a lot of people use cement additives to cure cancer, diabetes, macular degeneration, and who knows what else.

Some people believe all of the above. It is your choice if you want to be included in that group.
Good luck to you.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> Also, silica may be "essentially chemically inert in most liquids and gases," but it is not completely chemically inert. I just pulled a chemistry book off my shelf and found that it says "silica is somewhat soluble in water and in dilute acids." Wow, imagine that. Our stomachs use acid to help digest what we put in our mouths. And don't forget all those other trace minerals also in DE. There's also a possibility that there are mechanical/biological effects apart from any chemical action. Even with eight beers in me I can shoot holes in uneducated opinions.


Arsenic (As) 4.6
Cadmium (Cd) <0.5
Cobalt (Co) 5.8
Chromium (Cr) 7.1
Lead (Pb) 7.4
Mercury (Hg) <0.2
Selenium (Se) 0.61
Nickel (Ni) 9.9
Silver 

This a partial list of some of the trace minerals in DE.
If I remember right some of those will accumulate in the body.
Ever wonder what the effects of these minerals might be?


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

pancho said:


> Do you actually think there is enough people buying DE for a miracle cure to matter?


No, you're probably right about that. But the fact that they don't do the studies proves nothing. Maybe they don't believe it's useful for any medical use. But they're miners, so why do I care what they think about medicine? I don't.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

pancho said:


> Arsenic (As) 4.6
> Cadmium (Cd) <0.5
> Cobalt (Co) 5.8
> Chromium (Cr) 7.1
> ...


I know what the effects of these are. Some are BAD. But I don't know how much any of them accumulate or how much you need in you to do any harm. That's something I intend to research before using it myself. Interestingly enough, some heavy metals have been shown to be beneficial in very small doses.


----------



## J.T.M. (Mar 2, 2008)

Add the word " critters " to the list of words I absolutley can not stand...


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> I know what the effects of these are. Some are BAD. But I don't know how much any of them accumulate or how much you need in you to do any harm. That's something I intend to research before using it myself. Interestingly enough, some heavy metals have been shown to be beneficial in very small doses.


I had a friend who got lead poisoning. He was a sandblaster. Took him a long time to recover and the last time I saw him he was still bald. Along with several more serious problems all of his hair fell out.
I don't think they even sell arsnic anymore. Years ago you could buy it for rat and mouse poison.
Mercury isn't anything to play with. The place I worked in we had a mercury switch break. They called in a special crew to clean it up.


----------



## chickenslayer (Apr 20, 2010)

When I was 4 years old I ate dirt all the time, but then I grew up and don't eat dirt anymore.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

pancho said:


> I had a friend who got lead poisoning. He was a sandblaster. Took him a long time to recover and the last time I saw him he was still bald. Along with several more serious problems all of his hair fell out.
> I don't think they even sell arsnic anymore. Years ago you could buy it for rat and mouse poison.
> Mercury isn't anything to play with. The place I worked in we had a mercury switch break. They called in a special crew to clean it up.


It's all in the dosage. I don't know the acute toxicity levels for those things off the top of my head, but I'm guessing they're much higher than the levels in DE, just for the simple fact that people consume and don't die. Long-term maybe there are issues with some of them, but I haven't been able to find anything on that yet.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

chickenslayer said:


> When I was 4 years old I ate dirt all the time, but then I grew up and don't eat dirt anymore.


Most likely you do if you eat any processed food.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> The study I posted was an *actual clinical trial*, of which you conveniently ignore the first half of the conclusion. For what it's worth,* clinical trials usually cost millions*


So you're saying now that they spent "millions" for a "trial" that concluded they needed to do a REAL TRIAL, and then *never did it*?

LOL



> And don't forget all those *other trace minerals *also in DE


Those are everywhere. Many of them are poisonous
You don't need to eat the Silica to get them.
That's just sales hype for "contaminates"



> But the fact that they don't do the studies proves nothing. *Maybe they don't believe it's useful for any medical use*. But they're miners, so why do I care what they think about medicine? I don't


So the people who produce it don't think it's useful for medical use, even though the distributors *claim* it is, and they could increase the value MANY times by doing some simple tests to prove it.

I think they don't do the tests because they already *know* the answers, and they would rather keep selling it based on the rumors


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> So you're saying now that they spent "millions" for a "trial" that concluded they needed to do a REAL TRIAL, and then *never did it*?
> 
> LOL


Nope, I didn't say that at all. But nice try.



> Those are everywhere. Many of them are poisonous
> You don't need to eat the Silica to get them.
> That's just sales hype for "contaminates"


They are not everywhere, but they are lots of places, including the toxic ones, but the toxic ones are only toxic in relatively large doses. The essential ones are lacking in a lot of farmland these days. A sheep farmer should know about how important cobalt is. Silica itself is essential to life, not in nearly the amount it occurs in DE, but the uptake is very low.



> So the people who produce it don't think it's useful for medical use, even though the distributors *claim* it is, and they could increase the value MANY times by doing some simple tests to prove it.
> 
> I think they don't do the tests because they already *know* the answers, and they would rather keep selling it based on the rumors


I have no idea what the people who produce it think. Your guess is as good as mine. But those "simple tests" are not so simple and they probably wouldn't really increase the value much. It isn't a drug. It's a mineral complex mined from the ground. Nothing proprietary about that. And people like you probably wouldn't believe it had any value even if they did double-blind placebo-controlled clinical studies and published them in highly respected peer-reviewed journals, so why bother? It's just minerals after all.

For what it's worth, I'm still open-minded. If you have any real information to convince me how worthless or horrible DE is, I'd appreciate it so I can make a fully-informed decision. But your theories and "logical" arguments aren't helpful. None of what you've posted in this thread qualifies as "neighborly help and friendly advice."


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> But those "simple tests" are not so simple and they probably wouldn't really increase the value much. *It isn't a drug*. It's a mineral complex mined from the ground


It would be IF they proved it could do all the things they claim it will do , and it WOULD increase the value.



> None of what you've posted in this thread qualifies as "neighborly help and friendly advice."


LOL

*Facts* fit both of those.
Fantasies don't


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

I guess I have different definitions of "neighborly" and "friendly." And "facts." Glad my neighbors are wonderful, kind, knowledgeable people.


----------



## Ross (May 9, 2002)

I hope you find what you need Mr Thomas!


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Ross said:


> I hope you find what you need Mr Thomas!


Thank you. And I want to say again that I appreciate how you shared your experience in a neighborly and friendly way.


----------



## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Wow. Astonishing that this discussion has been going on this long.



ryanthomas said:


> I know what the effects of these are. Some are BAD. *But I don't know how much any of them accumulate or how much you need in you to do any harm.* That's something I intend to research before using it myself. Interestingly enough, some heavy metals have been shown to be beneficial in very small doses.


Arsenic (As) 4.6
Cadmium (Cd) <0.5
Cobalt (Co) 5.8
Chromium (Cr) 7.1
Lead (Pb) 7.4
Mercury (Hg) <0.2

The above are some of the heavy metals that Pancho posted for you earlier re: heavy metals found in DE - all are very harmful and none of them are beneficial even in small doses. They all *bioaccumulate* in the body and brain over time and you don't need much of it to do harm.

http://www.lenntech.com/processes/heavy/heavy-metals/heavy-metals.htm

Heavy Metal Toxicity:
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/814960-overview

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-156.shtml

.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

naturelover said:


> *all are very harmful and none of them are beneficial even in small doses.*


There's another broad statement that isn't entirely accurate. Cobalt is an ESSENTIAL trace mineral that is only toxic at excessive levels. An arsenic compound has been used to treat certain cancers. And most of us are already exposed to similar or higher levels of some of these heavy metals every day.

Do you have any numbers on how much of any of them it takes to do harm? I am doing my own research, but so far I haven't been able to determine if regularly consuming a small amount of DE could cause toxic levels of chromium, nickel, or cobalt. Lead is a minor concern, especially for children. Cadmium and mercury, there are higher levels in a lot of water and foods. I won't say they're inconsequential, but most of us are already exposed to these levels.

If anyone has any data to share, I would very much appreciate it. If I can determine the levels of chromium, nickel, and cobalt are acceptable for me, I'll consider doing my own experimentation on myself, but I prefer to know as much as I can up front.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> There's another broad statement that isn't entirely accurate. Cobalt is an ESSENTIAL trace mineral that is only toxic at excessive levels. An arsenic compound has been used to treat certain cancers. And most of us are already exposed to similar or higher levels of some of these heavy metals every day.
> 
> Do you have any numbers on how much of any of them it takes to do harm? I am doing my own research, but so far I haven't been able to determine if regularly consuming a small amount of DE could cause toxic levels of chromium, nickel, or cobalt. Lead is a minor concern, especially for children. Cadmium and mercury, there are higher levels in a lot of water and foods. I won't say they're inconsequential, but most of us are already exposed to these levels.
> 
> If anyone has any data to share, I would very much appreciate it. If I can determine the levels of chromium, nickel, and cobalt are acceptable for me, I'll consider doing my own experimentation on myself, but I prefer to know as much as I can up front.


I agree. Most of us are exposed to some level of heavy metals everyday.
Most people will try not to be exposed to any more heavy metals than necessary. Many of the heavy metals are retained in the body so every little bit adds up.

Now my question is. Why take something on purpose that contains heavy metals in addition to those we are exposed to daily?
Does DE double the amount of heavy metals the body retains?

Guess I have another question. Heavy metals are not good for the human body. DE contains trave amounts of heavy metals.
There may not be any research on the effects of DE one way ot the other. It may or may not have any good effect on the body. There has definately been research on heavy metals effect on the human body. 
Now the question. 
Why would a person choose to gamble?


----------



## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

ryanthomas said:


> There's another broad statement that isn't entirely accurate. Cobalt is an ESSENTIAL trace mineral that is only toxic at excessive levels. An arsenic compound has been used to treat certain cancers. And most of us are already exposed to similar or higher levels of some of these heavy metals every day.
> 
> Do you have any numbers on how much of any of them it takes to do harm? I am doing my own research, but so far I haven't been able to determine if regularly consuming a small amount of DE could cause toxic levels of chromium, nickel, or cobalt. Lead is a minor concern, especially for children. Cadmium and mercury, there are higher levels in a lot of water and foods. I won't say they're inconsequential, but most of us are already exposed to these levels.
> 
> If anyone has any data to share, I would very much appreciate it. If I can determine the levels of chromium, nickel, and cobalt are acceptable for me, I'll consider doing my own experimentation on myself, but I prefer to know as much as I can up front.


I like your gung ho attitude when it comes to heavy metals. The little bit we all get in our daily routines might not be lethal, so you will seek out new sources for extra ingestion. Everyone needs to find their own limits. I can respect that. Rasputin survived enough cyanide to kill five men. Too bad he was a poor swimmer. 

Arsenic: http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9922970
Cobalt: http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9923518
Chromium: http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927136

And anything else from blueberry flavor to spearmint: http://www.sciencelab.com/msdsList.php


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

pancho said:


> Many of the heavy metals are retained in the body so every little bit adds up.


This is true, but I'm not sure how big of a deal it is. Lead ingested by adults, for example, is mostly excreted within a month. And only a fraction of the lead ingested is absorbed by the body to begin with. So it's a concern, but I'm not yet convinced it's a deal-breaker.



> Now my question is. Why take something on purpose that contains heavy metals in addition to those we are exposed to daily?


It's possible any benefit outweighs any negative effects. That's something for everyone to decide for themselves. Many prescription drugs have some pretty nasty side effects, yet millions of people take them every day. Clearly the benefits outweigh the risks for them. ETA: Another example, how many millions of people willingly allow dentists to install little pockets of mercury in their mouths?



> Does DE double the amount of heavy metals the body retains?


There's no reason to believe it does. Some people have claimed it actually helps remove heavy metals from the body, but there's no proof of that.



> Why would a person choose to gamble?


Like I said above, weigh the risks. I don't consider it a gamble the way I'm approaching it. I'm trying to determine before I use the stuff if it's likely to be dangerous. If I come to the conclusion that it's safe, I'll try it and monitor my blood for heavy metal levels. The levels in DE do not appear to be enough to cause acute toxicity if it's taken in small amounts, but it's possible they could accumulate over the course of several months. If that happens, I'll stop taking it. It won't kill me overnight.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> There's *no reason to believe *it does


Other than hearsay, and a few incomplete studies, there's *no reason to believe *it's beneficial either


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Ed Norman said:


> I like your gung ho attitude when it comes to heavy metals. The little bit we all get in our daily routines might not be lethal, so you will seek out new sources for extra ingestion. Everyone needs to find their own limits. I can respect that. Rasputin survived enough cyanide to kill five men. Too bad he was a poor swimmer.


I wouldn't say I'm gung ho about it. I'm open-minded and willing to experiment on myself if there's no great risk. I'm probably going to die young anyway, and I've already accomplished more in my life than most people three times my age. Just as an example of what I'm talking about when I say the risk is probably low, take a look at the MSDS for arsenic. It takes 145 mg/kg to cause acute toxicity. I weigh about 80 kg, so it would take 11.6 grams of arsenic. Diatomaceous earth contains 4.6 mg/kg of arsenic. In order to get 11.6 grams from DE, assuming I absorb every gram I consume (which I likely wouldn't) I would have to consume over 2500 kg of it, which is over 5500 pounds.


----------



## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

ryanthomas said:


> I'm probably going to die young anyway,


What if you don't?


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Other than hearsay, and a few incomplete studies, there's *no reason to believe *it's beneficial either


That's why I choose to find out for myself. There's enough anecdotal evidence for me to give it a try, as long as it's safe. If I derive no benefit, I'll stop taking it and I'll be out about $10. No big loss.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Ed Norman said:


> What if you don't?


Then I'll have a beer and celebrate. Alcohol is another poison that people willingly put in their bodies.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> That's why I choose to find out for myself. There's enough anecdotal evidence for me to give it a try, as long as it's safe. If I derive no benefit, I'll stop taking it and I'll be out about $10. No big loss.


You are gambling you will be out only about $10.
You may also be gambling away your life.
It is your life to gamble.

You have read the ingredients. That part is a fact.
You have read the effects of heavy metals on the body. That is a fact.
You have read there is no scientific benefit of taking DE. That is a fact.
Some person on the internet says it will cure all diseases including broken bones, cancer, and aids.

Your choice. Good luck with whatever you choose.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

pancho said:


> You are gambling you will be out only about $10.
> You may also be gambling away your life.
> It is your life to gamble.


That's ridiculous. It's not going to kill me. If I check my blood once a month I'll know LONG before it's at a dangerous level. Did you see my example with arsenic? It would take 5500 POUNDS to cause acute toxicity. At 250 grams a day, that would take something like 25,000 YEARS to consume. And that's assuming none of it would be excreted, which is not true. The other heavy metals are in similarly small amounts. I suspect I will die of old age before 25,000 years.



> You have read there is no scientific benefit of taking DE. That is a fact.


That is NOT a fact. I've seen more scientific evidence saying there is benefit than scientific evidence saying there is not, which is to say not much versus ZERO. Not much beats zero any day. Thanks for your concern, but this was a wildly inaccurate statement. Do you really think repeating a falsity ad nauseum will somehow magically make it true?


----------



## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

If it's the heavy metals you are after, why use the DE as a carrier? Why not a spoonful of each heavy metal a day, and monitor your blood as stated? You've show n me that arsenic is more or less harmless, all studies to the contrary.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> That is NOT a fact. I've seen more scientific evidence saying there is benefit than scientific evidence saying there is not, which is to say not much versus ZERO. Not much beats zero any day. Thanks for your concern, but this was a wildly inaccurate statement. Do you really think repeating a falsity ad nauseum will somehow magically make it true?


No, you have not seen any scientific evidence that shows any benefit from DE. The one you keep referring to is not scientific evidence. It may satisfy you but it isn't scientific evidence. It takes more than that to prove anything. Especially if there is nothing to compare the results to, no control group, no testing of anything or anybody out of the group that was fed DE.
That is not scientific proof. That is what many people and scientists call a WAG.
Do you know the difference in a scientific experiment and a WAG?


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

pancho said:


> No, you have not seen any scientific evidence that shows any benefit from DE. The one you keep referring to is not scientific evidence. It may satisfy you but it isn't scientific evidence. It takes more than that to prove anything. Especially if there is nothing to compare the results to, no control group, no testing of anything or anybody out of the group that was fed DE.
> That is not scientific proof. That is what many people and scientists call a WAG.
> Do you know the difference in a scientific experiment and a WAG?


WAGs don't get published in medical journals. If you want to redefine science, take it up with science. But it doesn't change the fact that there are even LESS scientific studies saying DE provides no benefit.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Ed Norman said:


> If it's the heavy metals you are after, why use the DE as a carrier? Why not a spoonful of each heavy metal a day, and monitor your blood as stated? You've show n me that arsenic is more or less harmless, all studies to the contrary.


I don't know where you got those ideas. I never said anything of the sort.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== and I'll be out about $10. No big loss. ===


Hey. Where are you getting 50 pounds of food grade DE for $10? Inquiring minds want to know!!


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Rogo said:


> Hey. Where are you getting 50 pounds of food grade DE for $10? Inquiring minds want to know!!


I'm not buying 50 pounds. I think that was for 10 pounds.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

The DE I take is Perma-Guard Fossil Shell Flour. Here's what's in it:











This is my DE magnified 7,000 times:


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Did you see my example with* arsenic*? It would take *5500 POUNDS *to cause acute toxicity.


Surely you're not SERIOUS?

http://manbir-online.com/diseases/arsenic.htm



> The reported *lethal dose *of arsenic ranges from *120 to 200 mg *in adults and is 2 mg/kg in children.


----------



## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Arsenic, element 33, has a long and nefarious history; its very name has become synonymous with poison. In the 15th and 16th centuries, the Italian family of Borgias used arsenic as their favorite poison for political assassinations. Some even have suggested that Napoleon was poisoned by arsenic-tainted wine served to him while in exile. 

5500 pounds of it in a wine glass.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

There's NO arsenic in my DE as you can see.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Surely you're not SERIOUS?
> 
> http://manbir-online.com/diseases/arsenic.htm


You are correct that my calculations were wrong. I thought I read in the MSDS that the toxic level was 145 mg/kg, but either I misunderstood that or they were mistaken. If it's actually 120 mg, then I would have to consume 57 pounds. So still not likely to cause acute arsenic poisoning, but it does make it a much greater risk. I'll definitely have to look at those numbers again when I've had some sleep. I do appreciate you catching that mistake.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Ed Norman said:


> 5500 pounds of it in a wine glass.


That 5500 pound figure was of DE, not arsenic. It was calculated from the link you provided, which said "Acute oral toxicity (LD50): 145 mg/kg" which was either incorrect or I interpreted it incorrectly. The correct figure should be 57 pounds, unless I'm making another error.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Rogo said:


> There's NO arsenic in my DE as you can see.


That is the brand that I was considering. But I think those other numbers are also of that brand, but from another lab.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> You are correct that my calculations were wrong. I thought I read in the MSDS that the toxic level was 145 mg/kg, but either I misunderstood that or they were mistaken. If it's actually 120 mg, then I would have to consume 57 pounds. So still not likely to cause acute arsenic poisoning, but it does make it a much greater risk. I'll definitely have to look at those numbers again when I've had some sleep. I do appreciate you catching that mistake.


You might take a little better look at several things. 
Those scientific experiments you keep talking about could sure use another look also.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

pancho said:


> You might take a little better look at several things.
> Those scientific experiments you keep talking about could sure use another look also.


There's only one. That's one more than the studies that say it does nothing. I don't really care about that study anyway, since it's about lowering cholesterol and my cholesterol is fine. I will be rethinking the risk, though. It would still take well over 250 years to kill me with the dose I arbitrarily chose, but chronic exposure is potentially an issue.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Well my watch is over for tonight. As long as people are in the mood to prove me wrong and do all the work for me, feel free to find the toxicity level, digestive uptake, and excretion rate of nickel, cobalt, and chromium. I only have a few medical books with me and I doubt any of them cover those topics.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

=== There is no arsenic in my brand. ===


>>> That is the brand that I was considering. But I think those other numbers are also of that brand, but from another lab.


You had best recheck your information.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> There's only one. That's one more than the studies that say it does nothing. I don't really care about that study anyway, since it's about lowering cholesterol and my cholesterol is fine. I will be rethinking the risk, though. It would still take well over 250 years to kill me with the dose I arbitrarily chose, but chronic exposure is potentially an issue.


Have a good night.
Maybe if you eat enough of that DE you could half that 250 years. 
Just take you 125 years if you really try.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> === There is no arsenic in my brand. ===


There was none in the *3* samples they tested.
That doesn't mean there will be none in the next bag

It also said it was* 99.452*% Acid Insoluble Matrix, which means material that does *NOTHING* at all.

It has Barium:


> *Small amounts *of water-soluble barium may cause a person to experience *breathing difficulties, increased blood pressures, heart rhythm changes, stomach irritation, muscle weakness, changes in nerve reflexes, swelling of brains and liver, kidney and heart damage*.


Read more: http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/ba.htm#ixzz1mFTDrT45

It has Lead:


> Lead may cause a range of health effects, from *behavioral problems and learning disabilities, to seizures and death*


http://www.epa.gov/lead/

It has Mercury:


> Health effects of mercury. Mercury exposure at high levels *can harm the brain, heart, kidneys, lungs, and immune system* of people of all ages.


http://www.medicinenet.com/mercury_poisoning/article.htm

It has Cadmium:


> Cadmium is an *extremely toxic* metal commonly found in industrial workplaces, particularly where any ore is being processed or smelted. Due to its low permissible exposure limit (PEL), overexposures may occur even in situations where *trace quantities* of cadmium are found in the parent ore or smelter dust


http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/cadmium/index.html

It has Phosphorus:


> Phosphorus was formerly commonly *contained in rat poisons and roach poison*. It may also be contained in some fireworks, but those containing phosphorus are now outlawed in most states.
> 
> Phosphorus poisoning causes burning pain in the mouth, esophagus, and stomach. Diarrhea, nausea, and vomiting with the taste and breath odor of garlic occur. The vomitus and later the stools and urine may appear luminous because of their content of phosphorus. *Damage to the liver and kidneys is extensive*.


http://www.wikihealthy.com/poisoning/phosphorus-poisoning.html

It has Zinc:


> Even though zinc is an essential requirement for a healthy body, excess zinc can be harmful, and cause zinc toxicity.[1] Excessive absorption of zinc *can suppress copper and iron absorption*. The free zinc ion in solution is *highly toxic to plants, invertebrates, and even vertebrate fish.*
> The Free Ion Activity Model (FIAM) is well-established in the literature, and shows that *just micromolar amounts of the free ion kills some organisms*. A recent example showed 6 micromolar killing 93% of all Daphnia in water.[2]


It has Lithium:


> Signs of lithium overdose or* poisoning *are:
> 
> 1. Persistent diarrhea.
> 2. Vomiting or severe nausea.
> ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_toxicity

It has Manganese:


> Manganese effects occur mainly in the respiratory tract and in the brains.
> Symptoms of manganese poisoning are *hallucinations, forgetfulness and nerve damage*.
> 
> Manganese can also cause *Parkinson, lung embolism and bronchitis*.
> ...


Read more: http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/mn.htm#ixzz1mFbwy7ji


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

So is it poison or does it do nothing? Can't be both. Manganese and zinc are two more essential minerals. Phosphorus and lithium may also be. I really wish people here could understand that the poison is in the dosage. Anyway, I've got a month or so before I get back to a place where DE is even readily available. That should be enough time to either do the research or forget about the topic entirely. Depends on how bored I get.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> So is it poison or does it do nothing? Can't be both. Manganese and zinc are two more essential minerals. Phosphorus and lithium may also be. I really wish people here could understand that the poison is in the dosage. Anyway, I've got a month or so before I get back to a place where DE is even readily available. That should be enough time to either do the research or forget about the topic entirely. Depends on how bored I get.


I used to work night shift, for about 15 years. Nothing to do but stay awake.
Doing research on the computer kept me awake. I had time to research anything I was the least bit curious about. You wouldn't believe somethings I spent weeks researching 8 hours a day. Since I am not the most intelligent person I had to prove to myself if something was true or false. Since I didn't know anything about many of the things I was curious about I had to look with an open mind. I had to try it.

Somethings I found out were good and some were bad. I try to give people some insight on what worked for me and what failed. I can't say what will work for others, just try to give my experiences. I don't expect others to take my word for anything. Just trying to give a heads up.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

pancho said:


> I used to work night shift, for about 15 years. Nothing to do but stay awake.
> Doing research on the computer kept me awake. I had time to research anything I was the least bit curious about. You wouldn't believe somethings I spent weeks researching 8 hours a day. Since I am not the most intelligent person I had to prove to myself if something was true or false. Since I didn't know anything about many of the things I was curious about I had to look with an open mind. I had to try it.


That's kind of been my approach over the last several days. I've been sailing, so I have to do something to pass the hours of boredom and stay awake late at night. Since there's so much disagreement about the potential of this stuff, and I'm not the type to take someone's word who has no experience with something, I decided maybe I'll try it for myself and see what happens. I don't expect any miracles, but I won't be surprised if there's some benefit either.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> So is it poison or does it do nothing? Can't be both


Read *what it says*
Over 99% does nothing, and much of what's left are poisons



> I really wish people here could understand that the poison is in the dosage.


Why expose yourself to MORE when you don't know how much you're already getting?


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Why expose yourself to MORE when you don't know how much you're already getting?


I do know how much is in my blood, at least of the well-known heavy metals. If the levels go up too much, I can stop taking DE. My heavy metals levels are already so much lower than the average American that they'll probably still be below average after I take DE for a month, or even six months. If I do get around to trying it, I'll post the results down in the alternative health forum, even if I'm wrong. Not as any kind of proof, but just for anyone who is interested. For what it's worth, everything is poison in excess.


----------



## terri46355 (May 16, 2003)

Ryan, 

I am looking forward to your posts in alternative health. My cousin's wife has been taking 1 Tbsp for a littler longer than a month. A pain from an injury 5 years ago that plagued her night and day has disappeared. Placebo effect? She also told her rheumatologist about taking DE. The doctor said taking DE couldn't hurt her.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

Wow, I'm surprised you're still here Terri! Sorry we took over your thread! I have lots of pain from breaking many bones in my body over the years, so that's interesting to me. Mostly I don't even notice the pain much anymore, but I would sure notice if it went away.


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

ryanthomas said:


> I do know how much is in my blood, at least of the well-known heavy metals. If the levels go up too much, I can stop taking DE. My heavy metals levels are already so much lower than the average American that they'll probably still be below average after I take DE for a month, or even six months. If I do get around to trying it, I'll post the results down in the alternative health forum, even if I'm wrong. Not as any kind of proof, but just for anyone who is interested. For what it's worth, everything is poison in excess.


How did you find out how much was in your blood?
I don't think I have ever been tested for any type of heavy metal.
Maybe they did but just didn't tell me.
I am supposed to go in for a physical this month. Think I will ask the Dr. about heavy metal poisoning.

I have never had a broken bone in my life besided a cracked rib or two. Don't know how I got to be an old man without breaking something.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

pancho said:


> How did you find out how much was in your blood?
> I don't think I have ever been tested for any type of heavy metal.
> Maybe they did but just didn't tell me.
> I am supposed to go in for a physical this month. Think I will ask the Dr. about heavy metal poisoning.


I have my blood drawn once a month already for other medical monitoring, and had several of the heavy metals checked once. Mercury and platinum were a little high, so I dealt with those and now I check occasionally just to be sure everything is still within the "acceptable" range.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

The minerals in DE are TRACE minerals. Since no one knows why DE works like it does, I've very thankful it works. I've used DE longer than 'scientific' studies are done....30+ years. When I see old folks on walkers/canes, plugged in to oxygen, not able to move well, etc. I'm thrilled I'm on DE.

Each of us takes different amounts of DE accordingly. I take 9 very heaping tablespoons daily. It's great to be close to 73 and have no pains or problems and be able to do many things easier than when I was half this age. My livestock free choice feed DE. Some of those critters I've had for 25 years.

DE a poison? I don't think so!


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Rogo said:


> The minerals in DE are TRACE minerals. Since no one knows why DE works like it does, I've very thankful it works. I've used DE longer than 'scientific' studies are done....30+ years. When I see old folks on walkers/canes, plugged in to oxygen, not able to move well, etc. I'm thrilled I'm on DE.
> 
> Each of us takes different amounts of DE accordingly. I take 9 very heaping tablespoons daily. It's great to be close to 73 and have no pains or problems and be able to do many things easier than when I was half this age. My livestock free choice feed DE. Some of those critters I've had for 25 years.
> 
> DE a poison? I don't think so!


I am just a few years younger than you.
No health problems ever in my life, not even a broken bone.
Lungs in excellent shape, heart the same.
A 10 mile walk is easy and that can be in cowboy boots, don't break a sweat.
100 degree temps in the summer, no problem, I can work out in the sun all day.
Winter, I can walk barefooted through snow.
I have several relatives who have lived to be over 100 years old.
We all have one thing in common. None of us have ever eaten a single bite of DE.


----------



## "SPIKE" (Dec 7, 2011)

http://www.humet.com/acatalog/ToxicMetals.pdf

this is good reading. I think you will enjoy it Ryanthomas.
Do a page search for diatomaceous earth, if you do not wish to read the whole thing.

SPIKE


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

I also have never broken a bone in spite of working with livestock for so long.

Summer temps here in the sun get up to the 120's and 130's.

No relatives that i know of have lived to be 100. Mom was 93 -- longest lived relative I know of -- dad in his 70's.

Glad your family could get along without DE. I couldn't. And I wouldn't want to go back to the conditions I used to have before DE.


----------



## ryanthomas (Dec 10, 2009)

[QUOTE="SPIKE";5705272]http://www.humet.com/acatalog/ToxicMetals.pdf

this is good reading. I think you will enjoy it Ryanthomas.
Do a page search for diatomaceous earth, if you do not wish to read the whole thing.

SPIKE[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that link. I read the section on diatomaceous earth and saved the article to read the rest later. They have some interesting conclusions about how DE works. I kind of suspected it might have something to do with adsorption, and it seems they're saying it's something like that. They also mentioned a few things that I need to read up on more, such as high-dose vitamin C and chelation therapy, both of which I've used and both of which they say are not good. Learning all the time.


----------



## Rogo (Jan 1, 2006)

When I first saw that food grade DE removed unwanted metals from the body, I pictured someone eating sushi with one hand and DE with the other!!

If I can find that piece, I'll post it. I haven't seen it for some time.


----------



## T. Stine (Mar 11, 2012)

I first read about diatomaceous earth in my gooming supply book. It is recommended for treating fleas on your pets. I looked it up on the web and learned that health food stores are selling it as a detox for worms and such in humans. After extensive research I purchased a 50lb bag from sears for about $50. I feed it to my hens and put in their dust bath. I feed to my yorkies and put on their fur twice a week after bath. I am anxious to see if it takes care of my squash bugs this year. I found that it also has many uses for humans. My husband, son and I have been taking it for about a month now. After only 2 weeks I noticed the soreness in my ankle has dissapeared. I have had a sore ankle for over 3 years. My husband had lower back pain, it is gone. My son lifts weights and has noticed an increase in his energy while use DE. My mom has been getting shots for macular degeneration for about 2 years. I sent her some and she has been taking it for a month. She told me just last week that when she went for her shot, the Dr. told her she no longer needs them!!! I read on an MS website that a lady who has had bad pain in her legs took DE and the pain is now gone. My brother has MS so I sent him some and he is going to try it. I realize the DE has lots of silica in it, which may be all I needed for my ankle, but it also cleans out the colon, etc. I am telling all my friends about this and they are going to let me know what their results are. One told me yesterday that she has noticed an increase in energy. I take 1 heaping teaspoon full with juice twice a day. My husband takes 1 tablespoon twice a day. I am thrilled about the results, and hope to share more as I get them. Please, anyone who gets results, let everyone know. Thank you.


----------



## T. Stine (Mar 11, 2012)

Rogo said:


> The minerals in DE are TRACE minerals. Since no one knows why DE works like it does, I've very thankful it works. I've used DE longer than 'scientific' studies are done....30+ years. When I see old folks on walkers/canes, plugged in to oxygen, not able to move well, etc. I'm thrilled I'm on DE.
> 
> Each of us takes different amounts of DE accordingly. I take 9 very heaping tablespoons daily. It's great to be close to 73 and have no pains or problems and be able to do many things easier than when I was half this age. My livestock free choice feed DE. Some of those critters I've had for 25 years.
> 
> DE a poison? I don't think so!


Thank you for your post. I am thrilled to have learned about DE. If people are worried about injesting poision, they should research what is being put into our food and the drugs that the Dr.s push, which are first approved by the FDA and then later shown on a lawsuit commercial for horrible damages. I say, to each their own. Thanks again.


----------



## T. Stine (Mar 11, 2012)

lmnde said:


> All right - so it doesn't work for you for whatever reasons, point taken. Maybe you didn't use enough, had the wrong variety, are a a skeptic and wouldn't believe that the sky is blue when someone else tells you, maybe your animals' issues were already too severe to be helped even with DE - who knows. Matters not.
> 
> Why however is it necessary to ridicule the ones who do use it successfully and have a track record of successful use, by being sarcastic and snarky? Can you not agree to disagree in a mature manner?


Thank you for saying what so many of us are thinking!!! Have you ever noticed that the ones who continue to brow beat others with their opinions are always the mean ones as well? Every web site you read has one or two people who can't just give their opinion and then be quiet. I believe such people just use the web to be cruel to others. After a while, the nice people change web sites. Thanks again for your post and have a wonderful day.


----------



## Forlane (Jul 17, 2010)

I noticed a significant boost in energy and lack of aches and pains when I started taking this about a month ago when I first read this thread. Although I still have, them I figured my aches were mostly from walking 10+ miles a day at work without stretching. 

As someone else stated it cleans out the colon, if you don't already flush daily this will help immensely. a little bit TMI but it put me on the toilet multiple times a day. Although I should note, it is not like having diarrhea so don't worry about that if you are still on the fence and haven't tried DE yet. At first it was quite annoying, as I work in a service sector job (Hardware Store) I realized that having a health stool was well worth the annoyance. 

I take 1 monster heaping teaspoon in my cup of coffee which is about 10-14oz. I drink 2-3 of those cups a day before work. 

-Chris the helpful Ace hardware handyman


----------



## terri46355 (May 16, 2003)

My husband and I have been taking 1 tbs. each day for 6 weeks. My husband started taking it to see if it reduces his blood pressure. An unexpected benefit has shown up. 

He had pain every day (for years) in his ankles and feet that would only subside when he took 3 Ibruprofens, wrapped his ankles with a heating wrap, and laid down. Recently, he noticed that the pain is almost totally gone. He is able to do what he wants to do, when he wants to do it, without the constant pain.

Other than taking DE, he has made no lifestyle changes.


----------



## EasyDay (Aug 28, 2004)

pancho said:


> I am just a few years younger than you.
> No health problems ever in my life, not even a broken bone.
> Lungs in excellent shape, heart the same.
> A 10 mile walk is easy and that can be in cowboy boots, don't break a sweat.
> ...


That's wonderful.
Consider yourself (and your family) very lucky.
But, your situation is most unusual, regardless of lifestyle, diet, etc.
IOW, you shouldn't be used as a "control group". ;-)


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted by *Rogo*
> _The minerals in DE are *TRACE minerals*_


Everybody pushes that as a huge selling point, then later they say this:



> When I first saw that food grade DE *removed unwanted metals* from the body,


Please explain how a totally INERT substance can *ABSORB* things FROM your body, and yet *RELEAS*E those same types of things INTO your body?

It must be Magic Dust , huh?


----------



## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

I really don't think anyone should eat this !!! I put this stuff down to kill insects. The microscopic edges of diatomateous earth are like little razors. When bugs walk across the stuff, it cuts them up and kills them. You really don't want a spoonfull of these little razor blades loose in your stomnach and bowels ........ It could cause great harm to your insides I would think ... bleeding ulcers, etc.

Ohio Rusty ><>

Somewhere between culture and agriculture


----------



## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

Interesting thread and thanks to the OP and those who have given their experiences - pro and con.

You know I always hear people denigrate 'anecdotal evidence' in favor of 'scientific proof'. If someone tells you this or that works, I don't necessarily believe it will work for me, but it's a pretty good reason to investigate.

Naysaying anecdotal evidence reminds me of the man whose wife caught him with another woman. He said, 'Honey, are you going to believe me or your lying eyes?" 

I can certainly see why the scientific community would not endorse this - think about it.

Every pill prescribed by doctors doesn't work for everyone. For some it will work fine, for some it won't work, for some it will cause illness and for some it will cause death. We seem to accept that from the pharmaceutical companies - why do we demand a better performance from any other product?


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Naysaying anecdotal evidence reminds me of the man whose wife caught him with another woman. He said, 'Honey, are you going to believe me or your lying eyes?"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I read the same general thing used as a sales pitch on a page selling DE

Drugs on the market have been proven to do what they say they will do.
DE has never been proven to do anything but kill insects and absorb moisture.

No matter how many anecdotes there are, they are still not proof DE really works without controlled studies to confirm the results.

When a product is *95% inert material*, no one should really expect it to so anything at all


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Many times if a person thinks something will cure anything it will work for them.
Placebos are a very good indication of that. If some people think they are taking medicine for a certain ailment they will naturally think they are doing better on it.
That is the reason there has to be a scientific study and tests done. There have been scientific studies and tests done on DE. People are free to believe the results of the studies and tests or to believe old wives tales.
Just because a person thinks they are cured of an ailment doesn't mean they really are.


----------



## sidepasser (May 10, 2002)

LisaInN.Idaho said:


> I should have looked more closely at the original link. I'm sure Woods Dressage is not the Four Winds from Orlando. Woods Dressage was Four Winds when they were in Massachusetts, not in Florida.


Sounds like the same people, just added a "service" to the Four Winds Farm, i.e. Woods Dressage.

see below directly from the link provided in the original post.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]I[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]n 1991, after many years in Massachusetts, Susan and Bill Woods said good-bye to the cold and made Florida their year-round home. [/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Drawn to the rolling hills and sprawling live oaks of the area, they found land and built their farm, aptly naming it to reflect their penchant to travel so far and wide on their judging and teaching assignments. Only ten minutes from Interstate-75, Four Winds Farm is a small facility located in rural NW Marion County outside Ocala, Florida. The Woodses specialize in private dressage instruction at the farm, offered on a superb all-weather rubber arena surface.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Services offered at the farm include:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Private dressage instruction
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Short course tune-ups for out-of-town or out-of-state riders
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Horses taken in training (general boarding not offered)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Coaching for regular students at area dressage shows[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] 
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Four Winds Farm is also "mobile." Susan and Bill conduct regular lessons in many Florida locations, including Jacksonville, St. Augustine, Orlando, Brooksville, Tampa, Sarasota, and Daytona. 
[/FONT]

As far as DE goes: I used in in my ten stall stable for fly control, it worked well in the stable as well as outside in the manure pile/compost heap. No flies in the chicken yard or goat yard either. Seems to work very well in eliminating all sorts of bugs in the garden too. 

That is my anecdotal evidence of what it worked for at my farm. Don't use it now as my horse is boarded and the boarding facility provides fly control.
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[/FONT]


----------



## GBov (May 4, 2008)

So, having sifted through all the for and against it seems to boil down to............

It doesn't work so good for intestinal worms although one poster gets great success by feeding it in mega doses. Perhaps because with so much going through the guts the worms cant get out of the way.

It works great for fly control. Many many posters use if for that and get positive results.

Many posters have had great benefits by taking it themselves.

Many posters have great success feeding it to their animals, including an all over improvement to body condition.

Several have had bad results but seemingly only for worm control which it doesn't work very well for.

Naysayers say it doesn't work for anything but users of it say otherwise.

Question for the naysayers. Have YOU tried it? For anything? Other than intestinal worms, that is.

I was given this link when I asked about using DE as a worm-er but having waded through all NINE pages I am now going to do two things.

1) Get some food grade DE and use it on my megawatt fly problem.

2) Get ten meat chicken chicks and raise five of them with DE and five of them without DE and see how they compare at slaughtering time.

Thanks to everyone who posted in this thread, both pro and con! :clap:


----------



## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

GBov said:


> Question for the naysayers. Have YOU tried it? For anything? Other than intestinal worms, that is.
> 
> :clap:


Yes, I tried DE in just about every way you can think of except eating it myself. I can experiment with animals but would rather not gamble with my health.

It does kill insects. The problem where I live is the high humidity and frequent rains. It turns DE into a solid rock over night. It killed insects the first day but that was it.

I tried it sprinkeled on animals and birds. I tried mixing it with sand for a dusting place for birds. I tried it mixed with my animal bedding. I tried feeding it to animals and birds. I put it on ant beds, plants, in the garden.


It did absolutely nothing to stop internal parasites. I raised some tragopan pheasants and they developed breathing problems when exposed to DE. They cost a little too much to try it for long.

For me it is alright if you live in a desert where it never rains and the humidity stays around 10% it will kill bugs. It won't kill any internal parasites. It is very hard to keep from breathing in DE and it can damage your lungs..


----------



## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I read the same general thing used as a sales pitch on a page selling DE
> 
> Drugs on the market have been proven to do what they say they will do.
> DE has never been proven to do anything but kill insects and absorb moisture.
> ...


Actually, believe it or not - that was my own thinking - I feel that way about a lot of supplements people are always pooh-poohing because there is no 'scientific evidence'. Believe me, there won't be any 'scientific evidence' (that gets made public) unless and until they can get a patent on it - same way with food supplements. 

As I say, I'm not pro or con - but I am - maybe so. I'm also 'don't say it doesn't work just because corporate America hasn't given it the go ahead'.

Some drugs on the market have proven to do what they say they will - sometimes and for some people, and for some length of time. For some they haven't worked, for some they have caused complications necessitating more pills, for some it has caused serious problems and for some death. All these passed and 'proven' by 'scientific evidence'. 

I'm not sure, but I think some of our pharmaceuticals contain a large percentage of inert ingredients - I know some OTC medications do. I remember when a pharmacist would fill a bottle with distilled water and dump in a small measure of powder for some medications. I don't see a difference. I'm pretty sure a large portion are water or other fillers or binders.


----------



## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Trixie said:


> I'm not sure, but I think some of our pharmaceuticals contain a large percentage of inert ingredients - I know some OTC medications do. I remember when a pharmacist would fill a bottle with distilled water and dump in a small measure of powder for some medications. I don't see a difference. I'm pretty sure a large portion are water or other fillers or binders.


In college Organic Chem lab, we made salicylic acid, which is the good stuff in aspirin. Each of us ended up with a half teaspoon or so on a filter. The instructor warned us that much was lethal, because an aspirin tablet is well over 90% inert with just a pinch of the salicylic acid.


----------

