# How important are pedigree's?



## smalltime (Jan 26, 2007)

Hello all, I have decided to do rabbits again but I have a few questions maybe you all could weigh in with your wisdom.

A few years back I purchased a trio of NZW from a local meat rabbitry (over 350 does) anyways the folks where great, very helpfull and the rabbits where in supurb health and all turnd out to be very healthy breeders and put much meat on my table, unfortanatly I had to give them up do to some unseen unfortanat events.

Fast forward to today, I am back in the market for some breeders so I emailed the rabbitry where I purchased my other breeders from and asked about pedigrees and cost for 4 rabbits, 2 jr. bucks 1 jr. doe and the possability of a senior bred doe that was ready to come off their line, but still had a few good litters left in her... I was told that because they only have rabbits for meat they no longer keep or offer pedigrees for their rabbits and that if I wanted a bred doe she would cost 1500$ WHAT!! and that jr. does and bucks where 25$ a pop... ok so I guess Ima do a classic trio of Jr's LOL

So my question is, how important are pedigree pappers for those of you that just do rabbits for meat.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

1500.00 for a breeding meat doe with no show wins and no progeny show wins? Outrageous. Especially when jrs possibly out of that doe are 25.00.  The most expensive NZ rabbit I've ever heard of was 300.00, and I think that is a lot. I've never paid more than 75.00 for a rabbit so far - and that includes my rare show silver fox rabbits. 

Anywho, it depends on what you plan on doing with your rabbits. If ALL of the kits are going to be for meat, then the pedigrees don't mean diddly. However, if you're thinking of selling the occassional breeding quality rabbit to 4-H'ers or other breeders, then I'd get pedigrees. Mainly because when you sell a pedigreed rabbit you can get more money for the same rabbit. It allows you to sell to more buyers, if you have pedigrees on your rabbits. It also costs no more to maintain a pedigreed rabbit than an unpedigreed rabbit.


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## laughaha (Mar 4, 2008)

If you've already had a positive experience with this rabbitry and know they have good rabbits, and are just raising for your own table; I wouldn't worry about pedigrees. I would go with the juniors too.


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## smalltime (Jan 26, 2007)

I agree 1500$ is crazy! I don't know where they came up with that price... Maybe they dont cull their breeders when they get old and just let em breed out till death :shrug: 

These would be for my table but maybe in the future I might find a market in selling breeders/4-H Etc... Is there a way to Pedigree my bunnies or do I have to start with already paperd stock? I know that these rabbits are purebreeds and this particular rabbitry is very clean and well run. 

Also would yawl recomend starting with a classic trio or should i start with 4 jr.s = 2 does, 2 bucks?


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Are you eating these or showing them? If you are just eating them, not selling-- not showing, I would buy dollar rabbits from the sale barn to start a colony of them. They all taste pretty much the same. And they all reproduce like rabbits. I personally would NEVER pay over eight dollars for a rabbit. But I don't show other than the kids at 4H when they were small. And those were two dollar rabbits not $1500, and they still win blue ribbons.


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## smalltime (Jan 26, 2007)

mekasmom said:


> Are you eating these or showing them? If you are just eating them, not selling-- not showing, I would buy dollar rabbits from the sale barn to start a colony of them. They all taste pretty much the same. And they all reproduce like rabbits. I personally would NEVER pay over eight dollars for a rabbit. But I don't show other than the kids at 4H when they were small. And those were two dollar rabbits not $1500, and they still win blue ribbons.


Yup I am eatting them but at the same time I am very "high maintenance" the wife calls it LOL I prefer words like " Passonate" or "pride" myself.. I don't wanna get 6 months down the road and run into a business oppertunity and have to pass because I did not get the prop. documentation, fact is no matter how good the rabbits are without pedigrees Im limited to my just my table and the pet industry... I guess the real problem I have with all of this is I have looked at alot of bunnies and nothing holds a candle to these folks breed stock IMO and now I might have to pass up on these because of politics! And I'm sorta P'd off at the breeder because they should know better, if your going to sell breeding stock then you should keep their pedigree papers up to date...


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Around here NZW's with pedigrees go for $20 with pedigrees at 10 weeks.
You can start your own pedigree's, it's not like registering them with ARBA.
Pedigrees are just a family tree.


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## smalltime (Jan 26, 2007)

SquashNut said:


> Around here NZW's with pedigrees go for $20 with pedigrees at 10 weeks.
> You can start your own pedigree's, it's not like registering them with ARBA.
> Pedigrees are just a family tree.


This is good news! How do I do it? From what I see, its just a family tree showing 3 generations? Cant you do that with any rabbits? I mean how dose showing this info mean anything? I just don't get it...


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## ladysown (May 3, 2008)

just for meat and not for breeder sales?

Don't worry on them.


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

Pedigrees are meant to show that your current rabbit is descended from <whomever>, generally only used for purebreds. It's also valuable if you're worrying about linebreeding (or trying to guard against it).

All you need to do to start your own pedigrees is to keep good records, and probably tattoo the various rabbits so you can keep track of who is who. 3 generations is required to get your rabbit registered with ARBA (proving that the rabbit is a purebred, basically). There are a few rabbit pedigree software out there that make it super easy. Kintraks.com has one that is free to try out. Only limitation on it is the number of rabbits you can enter (60, I believe). Evans software is another that many people use. Or just do it the old fashioned way. 

The pedigree includes the date of birth, tattoo number (if rabbit has one), male/female, color, and that's about it for basic stuff. Some include the weight (as a senior) of the parents(useful for "is this rabbit acceptable, too small, too big" )any championships won...can't think off the top of my head. Some are as simple as a human tree - child - parents -grandparents-great grandparents. 

I've been learning a LOT about pedigrees with my Beverens and Americans now. Holy Moly...very important with the rarebreeds so that genetics can be continued or discontinued. I made the decision when I started with rabbits to just include the pedigree with the rabbit..no additional charge. costs me nothing to do...just hit "print" and it's done. (okay. costs me maybe a penny) Many people will charge more for the pedigree for various reasons. It's very individual. 

and on a personal note...$1500 for a bred rabbits is ridiculous. (I had another word ready to type, but decided against being banned) I understand Florida has few rabbits (likely due to the heat?) but goodness. You could import a purebred NewZealand FROM New Zealand for that price. 

good luck with your search.


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## XLT (Apr 7, 2005)

hey, I mean I'll give a quantity discount of $1200 if you buy three... I'll hand carry them to your door gift wrapped 

Don't have NZW, just blacks and reds though


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

Did they really want $1500 for an older doe? Could it have been a typo!?! I've heard of some pricey rabbits, but goodness! I'll sell you all of mine for that price.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I use a pedigree software called kintraks. I LOVE it. It was free for me, because I have a mac and he needed people to troubleshoot mac versions. It does SO much more than pedigrees. I have several 'databases' - one for goats, rabbits, rats and whatever else I could want one for as well. It keeps track of health, sales, breedings, litters, growth rates - pretty much ANY aspect of raising animals you could possibly imagine.

I think for windows users it's only like 25.00, but I could be wrong. I tried to offer to pay the man for his mac version, I love it so much - but he refused.  

Yes, you can start pedigrees, as well. I have some rabbits that are purebred silver fox, but the previous owner didn't buy their pedigrees when she originally bought them, when she was starting out. I've been building pedigrees with their offspring. Eventually you'd build up to fully pedigreed again, after a few generations.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I use kintraks and keep pedigrees for all my rabbits, including crosses.


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## ladysown (May 3, 2008)

$20 to purchase Kintraks, owner/designer is easy enough to work with too.


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## smalltime (Jan 26, 2007)

wolffeathers said:


> Did they really want $1500 for an older doe? Could it have been a typo!?! I've heard of some pricey rabbits, but goodness! I'll sell you all of mine for that price.


Cut and paste from email...



> A senior Doe, already bred, would cost you about $1500 because we would have invested so much into her,once we put the Does in our lines. Our breeding stock sell for $25 each


:gaptooth:


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

yes, the person with Kintracks is AMAZING. He emails back SO FAST!

I also keep pedigreed crosses around... Helps keep everybody straight. Hard to remember how everybody is related, without pedigrees.  Also with crosses, you can work your way back to purebred. And with ARBA shows, as long as a crossbred conforms to the standard for which you're showing it under, it can show right along with the purebreds. I have a 75% silver fox buck (25% chinchilla) with BOS leg.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

smalltime said:


> Cut and paste from email...
> 
> 
> 
> :gaptooth:


They GOTTA be pulling your leg on that asking price. A senior rabbit would NOT have cost anywhere near that much to raise up to breeding age. I don't know what else they would have 'invested' in the doe to think that 1500.00 is reasonable, either...? Especially if it was a cull doe that was being culled due to age - as she ages from young to prime breeding years, they would in theory make more and more back on her as she produces litters. By the time she's retired, they'll actually LOOSE money keeping her, as she will likely drop in production - at which point they should raise up a replacement and butcher her ANYWAYS - where they'll get very little for her meat.


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## smalltime (Jan 26, 2007)

mygoat said:


> They GOTTA be pulling your leg on that asking price. A senior rabbit would NOT have cost anywhere near that much to raise up to breeding age. I don't know what else they would have 'invested' in the doe to think that 1500.00 is reasonable, either...? Especially if it was a cull doe that was being culled due to age - as she ages from young to prime breeding years, they would in theory make more and more back on her as she produces litters. By the time she's retired, they'll actually LOOSE money keeping her, as she will likely drop in production - at which point they should raise up a replacement and butcher her ANYWAYS - where they'll get very little for her meat.


My thoughts exactly...


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## pfaubush (Aug 17, 2009)

Meat rabbits for your own table wouldn't really need pedigrees, but if you ever think about selling, expanding, outcrossing, etc., they sure are handy. I started out without pedigrees and decided to add more rabbits. I also got people calling me for breeding stock and couldn't sell because I didn't know their lineage. In our area, there is somewhat of a family shtick...every breeder has rabbits related to every other breeders.

Just something to keep in mind.


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## smalltime (Jan 26, 2007)

pfaubush said:


> Meat rabbits for your own table wouldn't really need pedigrees, but if you ever think about selling, expanding, outcrossing, etc., they sure are handy. I started out without pedigrees and decided to add more rabbits. I also got people calling me for breeding stock and couldn't sell because I didn't know their lineage. In our area, there is somewhat of a family shtick...every breeder has rabbits related to every other breeders.
> 
> Just something to keep in mind.


This is why I must have paperd bunnies, I do not want to be limited to just selling for meat/pets.

I'm having a hard time locaiting a breeder of NZW's that offers pedigrees? Anyone know of a central florida breeder? 

this sucks....


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## pfaubush (Aug 17, 2009)

Go to http://www.rudolphsrabbitranch.com/rrrbrdusa.htm and click on F. It looks like there are quite a few NZ breeders. I don't know Florida, so I'm not sure how far you would have to drive.


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## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

I have decided to keep pedigrees on all my rabbits, mainly so I know who is who, and cane figure out percentages...and I seem to be a nit picker like that I guess. Although I started with mutts and didn't care about pedigrees even once I bought pure...got em anyways, but didn't really care. NOW I do!


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## smalltime (Jan 26, 2007)

pfaubush said:


> Go to http://www.rudolphsrabbitranch.com/rrrbrdusa.htm and click on F. It looks like there are quite a few NZ breeders. I don't know Florida, so I'm not sure how far you would have to drive.


Thank you, looks like the closest one is about 8hrs round trip, with todays gas prices I'd be spending more on fule than bunnies... On the upside, not allot of compatition round hereound: :sob:


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## pfaubush (Aug 17, 2009)

smalltime said:


> Thank you, looks like the closest one is about 8hrs round trip, with todays gas prices I'd be spending more on fule than bunnies... On the upside, not allot of compatition round hereound: :sob:


No problem! Seeeeee, without the competition, you'll need those peds.


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## RRT Harlies (Apr 27, 2008)

Thewre is a big show in Dalton, GA in a couple weeks. You should see if anyone from down there is attending and can bring back buns for you. I would ask on the MeatRabbits, ShowBunnyList or District6arbamembers Yahoo Groups. I might not have the right title for the D6 one though.


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## SherrieC (Aug 24, 2002)

I wish I could get papers on my first harlies : )


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## Immaculate Sublimity (Apr 30, 2003)

for $1500 it better come with friends - say a dexter cow and maybe a few chickens to complete my milk meat and eggs need.


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## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

I wonder if maybe they meant $150? I hope sooo...Can't imagine they will be selling any bred does at that price, even $150 for a doe that is older and has no pedigree is outstandingly expensive....


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## rabbitgeek (Mar 22, 2008)

Using computer software to keep track of pedigrees is highly recommended. 

Keeping pedigrees also helps you keep notes about production so you which rabbits to breed together.

Have a good day!


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## pfaubush (Aug 17, 2009)

I agree with rabbitgeek! I use Evan's and it is fantastic. They have a free version that is very nice. The uprgraded version is imo phenominal!


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## hotzcatz (Oct 16, 2007)

Most pedigrees are only three generations, so get the rabbits you like, name and number them. They will have generation #2 pretty quick, save some of them, name and number them. Their kids will be official generation #3 pedigreed rabbits. 

If the pedigreed rabbits are true to type, then you can take them to a rabbit judge and get them registered. 

If you were starting out with an unpapered herd, then two bucks and two does would be better than one buck and three does so you could have more genetics to mix together. If you only had one buck all the kids would be half-siblings. If you had a championship type buck, that might be okay, though, but two would be better. At least, IMHO.


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## smalltime (Jan 26, 2007)

hotzcatz said:


> Most pedigrees are only three generations, so get the rabbits you like, name and number them. They will have generation #2 pretty quick, save some of them, name and number them. Their kids will be official generation #3 pedigreed rabbits.
> 
> If the pedigreed rabbits are true to type, then you can take them to a rabbit judge and get them registered.
> 
> If you were starting out with an unpapered herd, then two bucks and two does would be better than one buck and three does so you could have more genetics to mix together. If you only had one buck all the kids would be half-siblings. If you had a championship type buck, that might be okay, though, but two would be better. At least, IMHO.


Thank you, I found someone not to far away that has pedigrees and 6 week old kits available... Is 6 weeks old to young to ween them ?


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

smalltime said:


> Thank you, I found someone not to far away that has pedigrees and 6 week old kits available... Is 6 weeks old to young to ween them ?


Nope, not at all. That's actually older than the age that most meat rabbits are weaned, at around 4-5 weeks. I wean at 6 weeks, and butcher before 12 weeks. But then, I raise for show too and think kits do better weaned at 6 weeks, but that's my opinion - I know many who wean at 4 weeks and have no issues.


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## smalltime (Jan 26, 2007)

mygoat said:


> Nope, not at all. That's actually older than the age that most meat rabbits are weaned, at around 4-5 weeks. I wean at 6 weeks, and butcher before 12 weeks. But then, I raise for show too and think kits do better weaned at 6 weeks, but that's my opinion - I know many who wean at 4 weeks and have no issues.


Great! Thank you... I'm going to meet up and have a look at them here in a few hrs.

What things should I be aware of? Any particular questions I should ask? what about things I should look for before I purchase anything... :cowboy:


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## Wisconsin Ann (Feb 27, 2007)

smalltime said:


> Thank you, I found someone not to far away that has pedigrees and 6 week old kits available... Is 6 weeks old to young to ween them ?





mygoat said:


> Nope, not at all. That's actually older than the age that most meat rabbits are weaned, at around 4-5 weeks. I wean at 6 weeks, and butcher before 12 weeks. But then, I raise for show too and think kits do better weaned at 6 weeks, but that's my opinion - I know many who wean at 4 weeks and have no issues.


Just an FYI:

In some states it's illegal to sell under a certain age, due to weaning concerns. In Wisconsin, for instance, the kits MUST be 8 weeks of age before selling.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

I'd ask for parent weight, breeding history etc on parents. Try to pick doe kits out of litters with good parents.. Parent does should be at least 10lbs and bucks at least 9lbs. If you don't know much about conformation you can't really go wrong with just picking the biggest kits out of a litter for breeding. That way you know they had the best growth rate for their litter. At least, that's what I'd do. 


Also, you may want to consider temperament. My NZW's in the past were mean snots, and I'd buy more does if I ever found a breeder that honestly culled for temperament as well as quality. You may consider buying kits from a litter raised by a 'sane' mother.


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## smalltime (Jan 26, 2007)

Thank you everyone for the help and advise.

I chose 2 does and a buck, looked like he had around 200 or so Bunnies, Reds Whites and Blacks, They all looked to be in good shape and well cared for, said he would mail me the pedigree's for them and charged me 10$ each


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## Cheribelle (Jul 23, 2007)

Sounds like you did great!


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