# Is there new technology for this?



## wmsff (Jun 10, 2010)

Hello all. I had a grid tied solar system installed a few years ago and decided not to go with the battery backup as the cost was too great and I have a gas generator. However, with the economy the way it is and my fears about the future have made me regret that decision. My question is this: is there any new technology out there that allows for use of the array when the grid is down or can I divert just to my house and not back to the grid. Or do I need to purchase a battery backup with a new inverter?

Another thing; we have a tremendous prevaling wind out here but the turbines did not have a decent working wind speed. So many of them have a kick in speed of 7mph, and only generate until it hits 25 or so mph. It is not unusual to have a constant 5mph wind and even sustained 30mph winds with gusts of over 60. Is there anything out there that would make the cut for this situation. I have been thinking of getting a small turbine and not grid tying it just to have it for the barn and possibly the house in an emergency.

I just feel annoyed with myself for having not the foresight of the situation we are entering in this world now.

Thanks for your help.


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## ace admirer (Oct 5, 2005)

well i can answer to the wind turbine. there is almost no energy in wind less than 12 mph. what little there is is lost to eff losses. small turbines = small power production unless high wind speed (the 30 mph would be good power production, the 60 mph could be borderline dangerous with out reliable control) that means dead reliable equipment and that means high dollar investment. sorry there no easy (cheap) answers to energy production.....despite what some will tell you.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Yes with the right equipment a inverter can back feed another inverter so as to feed your home while the grid is down.
And yes a battery bank is required.
You really need to know what your doing to put this together.

If your original installer is not aware of this . . than run away from him....................

And yes there is quite a number of wind turbines that would do well for you...........


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## SolarGary (Sep 8, 2005)

I guess that if you PV panels are compatible, you could replace the inverter with one like this one:
http://www.altestore.com/store/Inve...rex-XW6048-InverterCharger-865-1000-01/p5956/

and add a battery bank.
These systems are grid-tied as long as the grid is there, but are grid independent with battery storage if the grid is down. 

I think that Outback also makes a grid-tied with battery backup inverter.

An expensive step to take when you roll in the cost of maintaining a set of batteries.

Gary


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## wmsff (Jun 10, 2010)

Thanks all. And yes the installer did quote out the battery bank and advised as to the limitations of the system without the backup. Due to the cost and the lack of incentives I opted not to go that route. There is a new and more local installer I am thinking of contacting regarding this upgrade as it is not easy to get my original installer to return calls.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

wmsff said:


> I had a grid tied solar system installed a few years ago and decided not to go with the battery backup as the cost was too great...
> 
> My question is this: is there any new technology out there that allows for use of the array when the grid is down or can I divert just to my house and not back to the grid. Or do I need to purchase a battery backup with a new inverter?


You're asking two separate questions there.

1. Can I use my existing inverter and divert the power to the house.

Answer: yes.....and no. 

Yes.....you could install a separate, small inverter with a single, small battery to "fool" the your existing inverter into 'thinking' grid power was still there, and thus it would not shut down as it is designed to do when the grid drops. 

By pulling your grid connection breaker, and maybe doing some wiring changes, you COULD divert the power to your house.

BUT, no, it won't work effectively. Here's why.

You will only have power when the sun is out, unless you set up a complete "off grid" system, with charge controller(s), and a decent size battery bank. 

AND even if you say "well, fine....I'll just use power when the sun is out".....even that will be problematic, as, say for example you're running the washing machine, or the fridge is running, and a cloud goes over.....your solar production drops WAY off, causing a brown out to the appliances you have running...do that enough, and you'll have burned motors.

A battery bank, in addition to providing power at night/cloudy weather, (the "storage" part), has a SECOND purpose ( rarely mentioned )

The bank also LEVELS OUT your power demands..(which is what the grid does for you NOW)....supplying excess when you need it, and re-filling itself from the excess panel production when you don't need what the panels are producing that that time. That allows your inverter to supply what ever your demand is in a nice, steady flow.....right up until the battery depletes to a certain point (  )....then the whole she-bang shuts down....but it doesn't "brown" out....just quits, as the inverter senses low battery voltage input.

Question 2:  Or do I need to purchase a battery backup with a new inverter?



Yep....that's it. 

I'm a big fan of the Outback inverters, personally. The GTFX series is their grid tie with battery backup bunch. When grid power drops, the grid contacts in the inverter open to cut grid tie, but a second set of contacts close, and you run a separate wire from those contacts to wherever you want the power diverted........the inverter then act just like an offgrid design.

Along with one, or more, charge controllers ( depends on number of panel watts you have installed ), some more disconnects and such, probably a transfer switch at your house panel, and probably a sub-panel installed to handle certain circuits for the house you definitely want to have run on solar backup. ( That's the way I set mine up, since I was going for about 1/3 of my electrical use to be replaced by solar in the case of grid down )

It's a WHOLE DIFFERENT critter, and about the only thing you're going to be using from your old system are the panels....and even THEY might need rewiring, as often times a grid tie ONLY, the panels are wired in series, and the voltage can run as high as 600v, where the max you can run in on a charge controller like the Outback series is 150v....so you probably ought to figure except for the panels and racking, you're starting over from there on down.

By the way, your statement: *"with the economy the way it is and my fears about the future have made me regret that decision."*....is the EXACT reason I set my system up the way I did.

People often ask about "payback" on my system, and I reply "probably never....who cares ? " 

The point of this type system IS TO HAVE POWER when the grid is down, and the generators run out of fuel.

Then I ask them: What's the payback on your new car ? ( never ) What's the payback on your bass boat ?  ( never )...and so on. Quit worrying about PAYBACK and be thankful for your insight if ( and more likely WHEN ) the grid goes down.

Sorry....the unabashed prepper comes out in me sometimes.....ahahahaaaaa

Now I'm off to the farm Co-op this morning to refill some drums with diesel fuel, so if this middle east thing spreads, and oil jumps to $200+/barrel, I won't be kicking myself for sitting here with a couple extra empty drums.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Re read Andy's post and you will see why I said >"You need to know what your doing"<

Seems more and more folks are coming to finally realize that "hey I got all this wonderful equipment out there (a strickly grid tied system)----and it ain't worth a powder when the grid is down"


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## Mickie3 (Aug 28, 2010)

Jim-mi said:


> Re read Andy's post and you will see why I said >"You need to know what your doing"<
> 
> Seems more and more folks are coming to finally realize that "hey I got all this wonderful equipment out there (a strickly grid tied system)----and it ain't worth a powder when the grid is down"



After I started explaining that too my wife, she was OK with the idea of spending a few thousand extra dollars on a whole house generator vs. adding the batteries, etc. that would be needed to go grid-tie and grid-independent.  Much cheaper, once I checked into the associated costs of going both routes.


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## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

Mickie3 said:


> After I started explaining that too my wife, she was OK with the idea of spending a few thousand extra dollars on a whole house generator vs. adding the batteries, etc. that would be needed to go grid-tie and grid-independent.  Much cheaper, once I checked into the associated costs of going both routes.


Micky you are correct on the $$$ part, but what happens when you can't get fuel for the genny. 

Hey, I'm in the same boat to, but I am studying on it and feel like I am running out of time.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Mickie3 said:


> After I started explaining that too my wife, she was OK with the idea of spending a few thousand extra dollars on a whole house generator vs. adding the batteries, etc. that would be needed to go grid-tie and grid-independent.  Much cheaper, once I checked into the associated costs of going both routes.


Yep...cheaper for sure. But not an apples to apples comparison.

Whole house generator: good for as long as you have fuel, and not one minute past that.

Solar: Good for the life of the equipment, batteries usually being the weakest link, at about 6-10 years for a decent set, and 15-20 for a REALLY good set.


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## Mickie3 (Aug 28, 2010)

TnAndy said:


> Yep...cheaper for sure. But not an apples to apples comparison.
> 
> Whole house generator: good for as long as you have fuel, and not one minute past that.


Having a 1000 gallon propane tank around with a generator consuming approximately 2 gallons per running hour should suffice for a while (in winter, no more than 6 hours a day would be needed that I can see, other seasons, dramatically less.)  Yes, a tank that size will be an overkill for most, but wife wants a gas fireplace and stove, so what the heck, why get a 100 gallon one when 1000 is not a lot more to own? 





> Solar: Good for the life of the equipment, batteries usually being the weakest link, at about 6-10 years for a decent set, and 15-20 for a REALLY good set.


Will look into the numbers again, but from what I recall, batteries were not an option with what wife wants to do, although she does want a wind power generation system, sooooooooo..... maybe she will let me use my gas generator until wind and solar are completed..... something to think about.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Mickie3 said:


> Will look into the numbers again, but from what I recall, batteries were not an option with what wife wants to do, although she does want a wind power generation system, sooooooooo.....


d

Without batteries, you won't have power when the grid is down.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Without batteries you won't be able to use that nice light bulb for the middle of the night trip to the bathroom.

Without batteries some of that "6 hour per day run time" -could- be only powering that nice light bulb in the bath room.

With batteries and -wind- and -solar- MANY of those "6 hour per day run time" would be totally eliminated . . . . . . . . .

Before you rave too loudly check out the price tag on a 1000 . . . .those puppies ain't cheap............
Consider two used 500 tanks . . .much less spendy..........


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## wmsff (Jun 10, 2010)

Thanks again all. I am probably going to choke when I hear the price for the battery bank with new inverter & wiring, but I really feel I need to do this. I have just spent quite a bit on adding to the barn, new fencing, and a corral that is not a mud pit, so spending more is not desired but pretty much a necessity. I just wish I could tap into that 30" natural gas line that runs across my property. :run: If I did, I'd bet the explosion would probably be felt in Ohio!


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## Waiting Falcon (Nov 25, 2010)

Has anybody tried these products ?

http://www.earth4energy.com/


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Waiting Falcon said:


> Has anybody tried these products ?
> 
> http://www.earth4energy.com/



Not me....but I can tell you it's a complete waste of 49 bucks, as they are selling a pipe dream.


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