# Combining Alternative Energies



## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

Every time I look into solar and start to get excited, I remember all the things that can dampen my mood with it... the inefficiencies... clouds... night time, lol. Still, it's something that I continue to go back to, which got me wondering ~ has anyone here ever created a combined approach to their energy needs? 

As an example, on many pieces of property with topographical variation can be found streams of varying flow rates, sizes... Could a dam be created for say a small pond for night-time use, or to augment a solar array on a cloudy day?

Could perhaps a small set of windmills (3 or 4) be set near the top of the property to add a marginal amount of wind power to the equation? Not the behemoth 100'+ towers that can be heard for miles around, but perhaps 50' or so? Something that could be easily dropped for maintenance? Or climbed, for that matter?

Is it feasible to combine all three in a way that might be more cost effective than trying to achieve power only from one source?


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

My understanding is if you have enough water to use as a resource, you also have enough regulations on it that you don't want to. You better check on which govt weenie is coming for you before you "obstruct a water way" with a dam. This ain't 1800 anymore.

Wind is fine, if you have wind. Many think they do, and don't. A 50' tower might produce nothing, and a 100' may. All depends on obstructions, location, and so on.

Here's a 100' tower I built for internet access, not wind power. It barely clears the tree tops at the top of the mountain.






























Solar works for me. Generated 7,333 kw/hrs this year.


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

That's a gorgeous solar array Andy! Also a fine tower! I, myself, would get up about twenty feet on something like that before my limbs started shaking uncontrollably and my hands were literally dripping sweat ~ it's good points though with regard to the water, points that I didn't know. It's actually been central Tennessee where I'd been looking (apart from Hawaii, but for very different reasons of course, lol!). It just seemed like such a winner... find a small creek, build a small dam, and have enough to run some light bulbs, the microwave, and a television during the evening hours before the sun came up and the solar kicked back in. Still, can these things work in tandem in any meaningful way, as far as you know?


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

What size panels are those? Also, you mentioned 7333 kwH for the year, so around 600 a month or so? How far off is that from what the stated kwH "on the box" would've been? What would a system that size cost ~ start to finish?


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I really take offense at your statement about hearing a wind turbine for miles.

I have installed many wind turbines, non of them on towers less that 100'.......

You are so wrong about your sound "for miles" statement.........


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Warwalk said:


> What size panels are those?


Ground mount: Solarworld 255w (10)

Tracking mount just above: Solarworld 245w (10)

Farther back down hill to right: Solarworld 175w (10 + 10 you can't see in this photo right behind it )





Warwalk said:


> Also, you mentioned 7333 kwH for the year, so around 600 a month or so? How far off is that from what the stated kwH "on the box" would've been?


Yes...the monthly average for 2012 was 611. 

A low of 453kw/hr in January, a high of 714 in May

There is no kwH stated on any box. There is a watt rating, and the kilowatt hours you get depend on how much sun falls on them for what length of time. The exact same panel in Arizona will likely produce far more annual kw/hrs than that panel mounted in Michigan.




Warwalk said:


> What would a system that size cost ~ start to finish?


I have about 35k in it. Built in 4 stages, beginning in 2008, when 175w panels were $800. Now, 255w panels are under $300. My "guess" is you could do this system today (as I have it set up) for something like 25k, assuming you did your own labor as I did. Probably less if you used Chinese gear.

Also, this is NOT your typical system. 5950w of it are on a grid tie/battery backup system, using a pair of Outback inverters (120/240v) and a 1200amp/hr battery bank.....designed to supply us with basic power in a grid down situation. This last addition, I used Enphase mirco inverters and is grid tied ONLY, for the sole purpose of knocking down our electric bill.


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## K.B. (Sep 7, 2012)

Warwalk said:


> Could perhaps a small set of windmills (3 or 4) be set near the top of the property to add a marginal amount of wind power to the equation? Not the behemoth 100'+ towers that can be heard for miles around, but perhaps 50' or so? Something that could be easily dropped for maintenance? Or climbed, for that matter?


My old neighbors in Colorado used both PV and wind for their home. It provided them with all the power they needed. The house is an earthship, so it was designed to be energy efficient right from the start.

If I recall, I don't believe their wind turbine was on a tower higher than 20'. The wind coming over the foothills of the Front Range is pretty reliable.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

TnAndy said:


> My understanding is if you have enough water to use as a resource, you also have enough regulations on it that you don't want to. You better check on which govt weenie is coming for you before you "obstruct a water way" with a dam. This ain't 1800 anymore.


I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I read that water through a 2 inch pipe with a head of 35 ft can generate enough power for the avg home. That isn't a lot of water and in many cases the outlet can be redirected back to the stream it came from.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

I think you need to re-visit those numbers.

Average home uses 900kw/hrs per month......about 30kw/hrs/day.

35' of head with 2" pipe would be 'maybe' 200 watts. Over 24 hrs, best case, 5kw/hrs. (200x24/1000)

You'd need 6 of those units.

And when you start taking 6 x 2" of water out of a stream:

1. You gotta have a pretty good stream with the head to do it. Those are way more rare than you'd think.

2. Even though you are only "borrowing" the water for a short time, and returning it to the stream downline, many places the natural resource weenies require permits and paperwork for that. Not saying you can't pull it off, especially IF it's all internal on your own land, but be prepared to run afoul of govt regs on water.....you'd be amazed how tight it's gotten.


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## CesumPec (May 20, 2011)

You might be right TnAndy. I think where I got my numbers was here

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Hydro/hydro.htm#WaterMotors

a quick look didn't find the calculations but I'm pretty sure it is in there somewhere. When i was considering moving to the mtns, I was pretty interested in micro hydro. But since I came to flat Fl, I gave up on the idea.


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

@Jim-mi ~ I wasn't trying to upset you. I'm really just in the initial learning stages on alot of this. However, I had a friend that worked for a German outfit called Zargus out in Amarillo and he said you could hear the wind farms long before you reached them. I've heard of this happening in other areas as well, such as upper New York, Hawaii, Holland... that they really try to put the windmills as far from people as possible. But, again, that might be talking about the very large ones maybe?


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

I have been involved with as low as a cheap piece of junk 300 watt Southwest Wind Power Air 303 . . . . the noise-est of all..........Up to a commercial German Ferlander (sp) 2.5 Mega watt unit . . .At the time it was the largest unit installed in North America......In between were several 10K turbines.
By far the quiet-est was the Very large German unit. I remember quite well standing at the base of the German unit and carrying on a conversation in very normal tones. That unit was spinning at a hub speed of 12 rpm (Max speed is 14 rpm) Moving to the farmer/property owner porch 600' feet away . .you would not even hear the woosh woosh of the 140' foot long blades........
(Hub height for this unit is 100 meters . . . .yes more than a football field tall)

I have **been there done that**

So that is why I deeply resent totally incorrect information put into a public forum...........


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## buenijo (Jun 14, 2012)

Warwalk said:


> Is it feasible to combine all three in a way that might be more cost effective than trying to achieve power only from one source?


Hey Warwalk. Yes, you can use multiple independent sources of dc electricity to supply a central battery system (solar array, hydro, wind turbines, genset, etc.). The best sources depend on the resources in your area. For example, if you're in Arizona the choice is clear (solar). Northwest Texas: wind. Hydro: if you're really lucky. Northwest: wood might be a good choice. However, you can combine all.


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

Huge thanks for the response Buenijo! I wasn't sure if they'd all run through the same piece of equipment or if they'd each require their own. 

@Jim-mi ~ sorry again if I peeved you off, I was merely working on what my buddy at Zargus had told me. So, wind issues aside, what would a windmill cost (pole, concrete pad or guy wires, turbine, blades and housing) that lists at 10Kw, and I apologize if I sound ignorant with this, but when I see them online they 1) Don't have prices listed as a general rule, and 2) List the kilowatts for a 25mph wind speed... where I'd be (looking at land in Tennessee) I've seen average speeds normally averaging 15 mph at 100 meters. I know there's a formula floating around on the internet, but I haven't seen it for awhile, but I remember power increases exponentially at greater speeds.


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

@TnAndy ~ If I understand correctly (still working my way through the learning curve, so tell me if I'm wrong), the combined capacity of your panels would be a 8.5 kW system (the nomenclature a company would use if I looked for the information online?). Assuming laboratory conditions of perfectly clear glass, no loss of power, direct sunlight without a cloud in the sky for 12 hours a day, such a unit would produce 8.5 x 12 hrs x 30 days = 3060 kW hours a month, but due to real world issues (clouds, change in sun angle, etc) averaged between 400 kwh - 700 kwh? 

Hopefully I'm getting a better handle on it and got those calculations correct. For me, whether it's the wind, water, or solar, I want to make sure that I wouldn't size myself incorrectly, thinking I was going to get more power than I'd actually be getting, if that makes any sense (?)

Also, you hear about a number of people making their own panels. Is there any real cost savings to this? I remember back when I had my insulation company people would always say they would be insulating their own attics, and they were amaaaazed when I'd give them a price equal to what they'd pay doing it themselves. They asked how I did it... I told them it was simply an economy of scale ~ that I got a much better price then they did, since it was our stock in trade. So I'm not sure if that's the case with pre-made panels vs do it yourself or not?


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

You are correct on your numbers above in a dream world. 

In the real world, you can figure the panels will put about about 75-80% of their rated figure, and for 4-7hrs/day on average, depending on your location, time of year, and so on.

My 5950w system did 611kw/hrs average per month last year ( that last 2550w array didn't come online until the first week of December, 2012, and didn't add much at all to 2012 figures.....disregard it).

6kw of tracking panels = 600kw/hrs/month in east TN.

IF you look up "PV Watts".....it's an online calculator that uses weather station data from around the country ( just pick the location closest to you) and enter your anticipated solar PV system stats into the software, and it will generate fairly close to what you will get with whatever size system you want to install. It will ask for such info as whether you're tracking ( single or dual axis ) or fixed mount and the angle of the mount, and so on...


Do not even consider making your own panels unless they are simply to experiment. 

Years back, when panels were 5-6-7 bucks/watt, you might could have competed on price, though I doubt you could on quality and weather integrity long term.

Now, GREAT, made in USA, panels can be had for right at a buck/watt, and cheapy Chinese stuff for well under a buck.....no way can you even buy the stuff, much less put a panel together that will hold up for 20-30 years for what you can buy factory panels for......that's my opinion. There are enough obstacles to over come getting a good solar power system up and running without adding the DIY panels in the mix. Also, assuming your electric code authorities look at your system, panels must meet UL standard to be grid connected. DIY panels will NOT have a UL label.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

The whole south east of USA is *generally* poor for wind. Of course there is a few exceptions..

You will not put up a 100 meter tower for home use....
The 60 meter towers I have put in come out to 195' . . . .
The FAA gets involved with anything over 200 feet . . .big time regulations.....

More realistic is 40 meters for *home* usage........

If there is any validity to your 15 mph at 100 meters then you would be wise to install a 100 foot MET tower to gather data for a year.
That data can be analized to determine if it is worth the price to harness wind........

And the best for last . . . . . A good reliable 10K turbine, big tower, inverters, etc. etc.
. . . . . . .lets start at $60,000........

Kinda makes you catch your breath doesn't it............


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## JohnP (Sep 1, 2010)

Warwalk said:


> Every time I look into solar and start to get excited, I remember all the things that can dampen my mood with it... the inefficiencies... clouds... night time, lol. Still, it's something that I continue to go back to, which got me wondering ~ has anyone here ever created a combined approach to their energy needs?
> 
> As an example, on many pieces of property with topographical variation can be found streams of varying flow rates, sizes... Could a dam be created for say a small pond for night-time use, or to augment a solar array on a cloudy day?
> 
> ...


As far as bang for your buck. 
#1 is energy saving and passive (or near to it) devices. Sky lights, sonatubes, insulation, ventilation, solar space heaters, solar water heating, etc etc.

#2 is hydro power IF you have a steady, year round flow of it. The reason is, you don't need a whole lot of hydro to make a lot of power because it's 24/7/365. 

#3 is solar due to the reliable source (the sun) being available worldwide. Supply and demand. Ease of installation. 

#4 probably wind. Almost needs to be DYI to be cost effective though. Even then, the same money put into solar gives you more power per dollar unless you're in a real windy spot. There's a few places on the globe.

The battery bank is what allows you night time / cloudy day use. All the active AE methods above are merely to charge your battery bank. A generator can be and usually is used to supplement. Doesn't make sense to buy double of one of the above technologies just for the occasional 5 day cloudy streak. Come to think of it, a generator could have been #4 with wind as #5. Some people actually have nothing but a big ole battery bank and a generator to run a big ole charger once every day or three. It does away with a lot of components. 

It has to be really dark clouds like raining for us to not get any power. Complete cloud coverage yet bright day and we maintain. 

Your post title "combining alternative energies" made me think first of passive solar design which is where it really fits best. Actually passive and active together along with minimal consumption.


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

@TnAndy ~ Again, huge thanks for all the information! I looked up PV Watts and definitely have a little bit better understanding of what's available, costs, etc now. On one site they had these panels (manufacturer was Trina?) that were going for $.79 / watt in pallets ~ 290 watts a panel, 20 panels a pallet. I figured 3 pallets worth would create a pretty robust system! 17.4 kW for just under $14K. 

Still, I know this isn't the only part of the equation... I realize there's the setup. The tie-in. The mounts. The inverter. If I could bend your ear for a minute longer, it brought up two other questions, hopefully easy ones... 1) Most people, myself included, tend to focus at these early stages on the cost of the panels, but I realize all those other things have a cost as well. 

As an approximate percentage for a DIY project, where perhaps an electrician buddy does the final hookup to grid, what would the various parts run? Would it be like 1/3rd for the panels, 1/3rd for inverter, 1/3rd for mounts? Or are the panels the biggest cost? Like maybe half the cost for the panels, and the rest for the inverter and mounts? I realize there will be variables (whether the panels tilt, the brand used, etc), but just ballparking it.

Also, I like the way you have your setup on the ground. This is what I'm hoping for as well, where I don't have to climb up on the roof or anything like that. Just a spot on the property a little away from the house, perhaps with a chainlink fence around it.


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

@Jim-mi ~ Likewise huge thanks for your help as well! Wind is still something of great interest, especially as solar won't run all day. I was looking on the US wind maps for the state of Tennessee to see what the average wind speeds were in various areas, and that's where I got the 15mph from. It seems like wind power is indeed a good deal more than Solar, but I suppose that the benefit is that it has the potential to provide service at all hours (provided the wind's blowing, lol!). Also, at least for my family, peak electric usage occurs (unfortunately) at hours when the sun is at it's weakest, which could mean either a large battery bank or a change in habits. For instance, laundry is typically done at night, lights aren't necessary when the sun's at it's brightest, and daytime is typically the time when we're out at work, at school, etc... thus the appeal of wind. 

$60k for a 10kW tower would be a major major investment, especially since it probably wouldn't perform at peak levels all the time, but again I think the benefit to such an arrangement would be that it could be used at all hours. Perhaps it would be beneficial to look into a slightly smaller system, perhaps a 5kW tower?


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

@JohnP ~ I liked the way you put the information in an overview, as it definitely puts things in better order. I especially liked that hydropower was so high up the list, lol! In my property search, I'm keeping many of these things in mind, and will be seeking out some of these features (such as a decent stream on the property with cooperative topography such that a dam could be built and water harnessed, at least for a portion of the day... and a local government amiable to my plan). 

It was an interesting idea about the generators as well. I hadn't really considered such a thing, but I could see how, even if the fuel was more expensive (not sure) that a generator and bank of batteries could be an easy way to go. I've also heard (but not seen) where people are starting to use wood for electrical generation... I suppose it works like a steam engine or something, but again I've never seen it firsthand, and don't know what type of fuel requirements (how many cords a month) would be necessary. 

Still, in some ways, this type of biomass approach seems to be an up and comer, as many people have tremendous stands of trees, and supposedly when coupled with a well managed replanting plan the technology is carbon neutral... which is a plus. 

I think, one of the biggest things for me will be finding a way of re-arranging my energy usage. Obviously AC would be out, which is okay, and gas / wood could be used for heating and cooking. But there will still be those peak demand times, such as in the early evening when the kids are watching Tv, the computers running, most lights are burning, or in the mornings when the coffee maker's on, hair drier's on, etc... I'll have to find a way of adjusting that, or tie myself into the grid.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Warwalk said:


> @TnAndy ~ Again, huge thanks for all the information! I looked up PV Watts and definitely have a little bit better understanding of what's available, costs, etc now. On one site they had these panels (manufacturer was Trina?) that were going for $.79 / watt in pallets ~ 290 watts a panel, 20 panels a pallet. I figured 3 pallets worth would create a pretty robust system! 17.4 kW for just under $14K.


That would be a huge system, for sure. IF you need that much, you probably need to consider cutting your use. 

Also, if grid tie, you better be sure your electric provider will accept that, and how they will treat the infeed. In our case, we get a nice infeed rate....but many places only net meter, or don't give you anything in some cases. 

If you haven't been to this site, check it out:

http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/surveys/free-solar-panel-price-survey/




Warwalk said:


> Still, I know this isn't the only part of the equation... I realize there's the setup. The tie-in. The mounts. The inverter. If I could bend your ear for a minute longer, it brought up two other questions, hopefully easy ones... 1) Most people, myself included, tend to focus at these early stages on the cost of the panels, but I realize all those other things have a cost as well.
> 
> As an approximate percentage for a DIY project, where perhaps an electrician buddy does the final hookup to grid, what would the various parts run? Would it be like 1/3rd for the panels, 1/3rd for inverter, 1/3rd for mounts? Or are the panels the biggest cost? Like maybe half the cost for the panels, and the rest for the inverter and mounts? I realize there will be variables (whether the panels tilt, the brand used, etc), but just ballparking it.


My guess is panels are about 1/2 or a little more, assuming you do most of the labor. I've never used conventional racking, always made my own here, so I don't even know what that runs. Also a HUGE variation is whether you go grid tie only ( cheaper ), or plan to have battery backup.....in the battery case, I'd say panels amount to 1/3.





Warwalk said:


> Also, I like the way you have your setup on the ground. This is what I'm hoping for as well, where I don't have to climb up on the roof or anything like that. Just a spot on the property a little away from the house, perhaps with a chainlink fence around it.


That design is stolen from a fellow Tennessean over on Solar Gary's website, which you should also visit. You can spend many many hours there, one of the best website going for AltE stuff.

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/PV/DougEnphase/DougEnphase.htm


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

@TnAndy ~ I'm actually looking not too far from where you are in the big scheme of things... I've been looking about an hour East / Southeast of Nashville. No locations specifically, but just in that area. Wherever the land (and property taxes) are inexpensive, while still being somewhat close to civilization.


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