# Q about coconut & other alternate flours



## Danaus29

Does coconut flour taste like coconut? Is there any way to hide the taste? I've had things made with coconut flour in which I could still taste coconut and I am not a coconut fan.
Does almond flour/meal act like regular flour? I've had almond meal cookies before, made with a recipe just for them. They were awesome! But not good for a low carb or keto diet because of the sugar that was used in the recipe.
What about flax meal/flour? Does it taste funny? Does it work like regular flour?
Has anyone tried oat flour? I know the carbs are similar to regular flour but does it work like regular flour?


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## Alice In TX/MO

None of them taste like wheat flour. That is because the enzymes in your saliva aren’t turning them to sugar as they do when you chew wheat based items.

It takes a while to learn to use alternative flours.

Oat flour doesn’t have the level of gluten that wheat flour does, so it doesn’t act the same way.


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## Danaus29

K, thank you. Buckwheat pancakes are awesome but again, not much better than regular flour when it comes to carbs or calories. I have relatives that are on gluten free diets and love oat and buckwheat flour. I guess it depends on what you make with the particular substitutes.


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## vicki in NW OH

Oat flour is high carb. I used to make pancakes with gf oat flour, and they were really good. Recipe is on Bob's Red Mill website. Don't eat them any more because of the nausea and pain I get when I eat grains. I have celiac disease, and Sjogren's is affecting my stomach also.


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## barnbilder

Buckwheat flour is awesome. Lots of protein, and using any flour type product you should be concerned with getting as much protein in it as possible, to make it worth the calories (makes no difference if they are fat calories or carb calories). Coconut flour has a decent protein payload, but will add a lot of calories for it's volume.


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## Alice In TX/MO

If you are doing Keto, stay with almond and coconut flour. 

Try different brands of coconut flour. Their flavor varies.


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## painterswife

I use almond flour more than coconut. Blanched has the skins removed so it looks more like regular flour. Non blanched looks darker because of the skins.


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## newfieannie

I use the almond more than coconut also but when I do use it I don't detect the coconut . I used coconut in those brownies but only 1 1/2 T and even then I could have done with less. took me a few tries since I started with coconut flour because it soaks up so much liquid. I'm still working on it.~Georgia


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## Danaus29

Thanks for the info everyone. 

Is there any particular one or combination that would be best for breading on deep or pan fried fish and zucchini? I found this recipe that looks really good:
http://screwedonstraight.net/3-2-1-keto-breading/
although to me any recipe that contains cheese sounds pretty good. 
Deep fried mushrooms are a favorite of mine. I was checking some recipes and already my stomach is growling!


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## painterswife

I often use pork rinds ground up for breading. Sometimes mixed with almond flour.


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## Danaus29

I'll pass on the pork rinds. It has to be something dh can eat too and he is on a low salt diet. We're trying to keep his blood pressure medication at the minimum.


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## painterswife

Danaus29 said:


> I'll pass on the pork rinds. It has to be something dh can eat too and he is on a low salt diet. We're trying to keep his blood pressure medication at the minimum.


I had high blood pressure before I started Keto. I was told to stop using salt. I started Keto and it turned out that salt intake no longer mattered for me. In fact I had to up it somewhat. Eating Keto for me means very few commercially prepared foods or sauces. That reduced salt intake so much that I started to add in a bunch of salt on my own. I no longer use any medication.


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## HermitJohn

All grains are high carb. But if you want to eat grain, suggest millet flour and buckwheat flour as two of best choices. Though be aware only wheat and to some extent rye have significant gluten. So dont expect same qualities in baking. And no none of alternative flours from other grains tastes like wheat flour. Different textures, different flavors. 

I use flax meal almost daily. Flax is an oily seed, not a grain. I use the dark kind cause its easiest to find, though if you can find it, the light colored flax is milder and most people probably prefer it. Same nutritionally. Not like grain flour at all to work with.


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## painterswife

The one thing I miss about using wheat flour is yeast bread. The smell alone is like a drug when bread is baking.


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## newfieannie

how are you eating the flax HJ? mixing it with something like cottage cheese or the like? I bought a bunch a few days ago at the bulk store .

now I've heard some of you mention pork rinds for breading. I've never seen bags of it around here. do you mean the scrunchions that are left when you fry up salt pork(fat back) or do you mean something else?

I'm trying a yeast bread recipe today using almond or coconut flour. we'll see how it turns out. ~Georgia


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## reneedarley

HermitJohn said:


> All grains are high carb. But if you want to eat grain, suggest millet flour and buckwheat flour as two of best choice


Buckwheat is actually a seed


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## vicki in NW OH

I just bought a book called _Simply Keto_. It has a recipe for breaded chicken tenders. It uses golden flax meal, with parsley and garlic powder added, as the breading. The chicken is coated with mayo first then the flax mixture. I'm going to try to find the flax meal and try this.


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## HermitJohn

reneedarley said:


> Buckwheat is actually a seed


All grains are also seeds if you want to be technical. Dont believe me, plant one! The only thing different about buckwheat is that it isnt a grass, its related to rhubarb and sorrel. For purposes of a low carb diet, its high carb and used just like any grain. Buckwheat does have a chemical in it that helps body control blood sugar. Mung beans have same chemical. I switched to only buckwheat after diabetes diagnosis. Worked while I was on insulin. Once I went off insulin, it was just another high carb grain and had to go bye bye.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Pork rinds pulverized in a good blender or food processor make nice coating instead of flour based breading.


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## HermitJohn

newfieannie said:


> how are you eating the flax HJ? mixing it with something like cottage cheese or the like? I bought a bunch a few days ago at the bulk store .
> 
> now I've heard some of you mention pork rinds for breading. I've never seen bags of it around here. do you mean the scrunchions that are left when you fry up salt pork(fat back) or do you mean something else?
> 
> I'm trying a yeast bread recipe today using almond or coconut flour. we'll see how it turns out. ~Georgia


I mix flax meal, eggs, and some olive oil into a batter, then make hotcakes with it. You need the eggs to hold it together. Working with flax meal is much different than most flours. Well lot different than wheat flour. Some people also cook whole flax seed like you would oats or corn for a porridge. 

Pork rinds are pieces of pig skin deep fried. Least thats way I understand it.


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## newfieannie

I've never had hotcakes but I think I will try that tomorrow for breakfast. ~Georgia


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## Danaus29

Buckwheat hotcakes with real maple syrup (or strawberry syrup, mmmmmmm) are awesome! But syrup contains lots of carbs.  Unsweetened fruit syrups IMO are better with buckwheat pancakes than they are with regular pancakes. 

Cream cheese with chopped strawberries or peaches on buckwheat pancakes! Oh yum!


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## HermitJohn

I personally eat the flax meal hotcakes with whole milk greek yogurt and some chopped greens. Even bit hot sauce mixed in helps. Whole milk greek yogurt by way has a nice spreadable texture. Lot nicer than the low fat kind.

Buckwheat is just as high carb as most grains. Its good, but it isnt low carb, even without the added sugar. Whole hulled buckwheat by way makes a nice porridge if you arent worried about low carb. Quite popular eaten that way in Russia I think.


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## Danaus29

Yes, it is still high in carbs. Been forever since I made pancakes anyway. I rarely eat more than one or two small pancakes. Hubby loves buckwheat pancakes, more than regular ones. He isn't trying to lose weight. I am looking at options as to how I can eat less carbs and not have to make 2 different meals, 3 times a day. To me the syrup on pancakes makes them too sickeningly sweet. Buckwheat pancake mix still has regular flour in it. 

I may try flax meal hotcakes when I'm cooking for myself. I've never had flax meal so I wouldn't try serving it to him just in case it's a flop. I plan on trying it in a deep fry breading substitute I read about though.


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## Alice In TX/MO

I highly recommend pancakes made with coconut and almond flour.


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## HermitJohn

Yesterday finally tried some flax seed porridge. No idea how long it would take. Added some lentils in with the flax as I figured 100% flax seed porridge would be little much.

Got pressure cooker up to 15# and went 5 min. Nope, still crunchy. Brought it back up to pressure and another 10 minutes. This time it was ok, though lentils little over done. So I would say between 15 minutes and 25 minutes. I doubt extra time would hurt the flax. By way I dont cook stuff directly in pressure cooker. I put in the trivet and just cover it with water. Then stainless steel bowl on the trivet. Put the flax and lentils in the bowl along with water. Cook anything like grain, beans, or seeds this way usually want 2 parts water to 1 part grain/bean/seed. Think of it as a sort of double boiler method.

Now should warn you, flax cooked this way is lot like okra or some other plants and produces lot gelatinous goop. When opening cooker after 5 minutes it was pretty unappetizing. But after another 10 minutes at pressure, the goop had solidified to certain extent and was not nearly as objectionable. And the lentils went very well with it. Added some butter and hot sauce and bit soy sauce. Interestingly my blood sugar this morning was lower than it has been in couple weeks. I think the gelatinous goop helped, no doubt a LOT of fiber. I wondered cause I dont usually eat this much flax at one time and flax indeed is a plant so has carbs, just not nearly as many as grains do. I didnt add any veggies cause I didnt know how long it would take. They turn to mush quickly in a pressure cooker. So seeing how this takes around 20 minutes, better to just add raw chopped veggies after flax cooked or lightly steam them separately.


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## newfieannie

I just can't take anything slimy so if I saw that gelatinous goop I'd have to dump the whole works. I did cook up the flax and eggs. added some hemp hearts and cheddar and it was really good.more like scrambled I guess. I have a hard time eating eggs. never ate them until I went on keto but I had no trouble eating them that way.

flax meal is not that expensive here. coconut and almond flour is. I wanted to try some macadamia nuts but as I mentioned previously they are 35 dollars a lb. I think they have it in lbs there. I suppose it could be kg. anyway I'm going to pick up a few just to try soon as I get back down again. there is so much at that bulk store most of it I have no idea what it is. still they don't have "just like sugar' or Swerve. I didn't ask for it though because I figured it would be by the bins of different types of sugar and it wasn't. I can't take the stevia so I think I will order some from amazon. ~Georgia


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## HermitJohn

newfieannie said:


> I just can't take anything slimy so if I saw that gelatinous goop I'd have to dump the whole works. I did cook up the flax and eggs. added some hemp hearts and cheddar and it was really good.more like scrambled I guess. I have a hard time eating eggs. never ate them until I went on keto but I had no trouble eating them that way.
> 
> flax meal is not that expensive here. coconut and almond flour is. I wanted to try some macadamia nuts but as I mentioned previously they are 35 dollars a lb. I think they have it in lbs there. I suppose it could be kg. anyway I'm going to pick up a few just to try soon as I get back down again. there is so much at that bulk store most of it I have no idea what it is. still they don't have "just like sugar' or Swerve. I didn't ask for it though because I figured it would be by the bins of different types of sugar and it wasn't. I can't take the stevia so I think I will order some from amazon. ~Georgia


LOL, I completely understand. In past wouldnt considered eating anything in a gelatinous goop soup, but things change when grain isnt an option anymore. And I think the flax seed and egg batter hotcakes are easiest way to use flax. Oh bit wheat bran added to the batter lightens it a bit. Corn bran nicer if you can find it. Pure bran has no carbs and still has bit nutrition. 

Dont forget sunflower seeds also. You can grind them up in a meal too if you want. They are more expensive than flax but far less than tree nuts and tree nut meal. I buy the hulled raw ones in 50# bag from Honeyville, cheapest I found and I wait for the occasional 20% discount on total order. Can eat them raw or toast them or add them to soups or stir fry. Or grind them into a meal. 

Sesame seeds are fine too, but nearly as expensive as nuts. I bought some toasted off Amazon and they were not only pricey but I ate them too fast. They were good, too good. 

You wont overeat on flax seed! Yea flax seed not much, if any, more expensive than grain. And it is supposed to be very healthy. I recently finally got 50# bag flax seed from Honeyville when I ordered the sunflower seed. I had been buying flax seed meal in the little bags at grocery store to make sure I would eat it. This large bag is a third the price per pound of the little bags. It is whole seed which will store lot better than meal. Just extra step of grinding it in my little electric coffee grinder for hot cakes. In pressure cooker, left seed whole.


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## newfieannie

oh that's good to know HJ. thanks! I saw sunflower and sesame seed. I must get them and grind them. all of the stuff is in large bins and we scoop it up and put in the bags provided. must be a lot of people eat this stuff because the place is packed .

I bought some chia seed also last time because I saw several people loading up on it and then I saw where Cabin Fever was eating it. not knowing how to eat it I mixed some with cottage cheese. even if we have no health problems whatsoever no harm in trying to eat healthy. ~Georgia


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## Danaus29

Hmmm, I wonder how ground pumpkin seeds would taste when used as meal. I love them plain and as a cheese and nut snack.


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## vickinell

Do you soak your nuts? I soak my almonds, sunflower seeds, and pumpkin seeds because of the lectin.
I also pre-soak my steel cut oats in apple cider vinegar when making salmon patties.


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## barnbilder

I soak mine in the hot tub badoom boom.


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## newfieannie

made up some bread today with flaxmeal,coconut and almond flour. 2 T chia seed, 1/2butter and 1/2 coconut oil ,salt soda,vinegar and eggs. I ate half a loaf but I only made a small one in case I would have to throw it away. it's my best tasting keto bread so far!.i don't like soda although I couldn't detect it but i'll experiment with baking power next. soon as I get some more almond flour i'll make a larger loaf. i'll try it toasted for breakfast tomorrow


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## barnbilder

You would be better off with wheat flour. Less calories. There really isn't any kind of flour that you can make bread that you can eat a half of a loaf of. Not without blowing through an entire days worth of calories. Unless it is made in one of those ken and barbie loaf pans. Or maybe if you are running a marathon.


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## barnbilder

Coconut flour will run around 466 calories per cup. Wheat has 407. 87 grams of carbs in wheat compared to 65 grams of carbs in coconut. Coconut has more fat, eight times as much, but only gives you an extra gram of protein. Now soy protein isolate, only 270 calories per cup, 1.5 grams fat and 3 g of carbs, gives you 60 grams of protein per cup. Slip that in a recipe with some regular flour and you can make bread worth eating. IOW, you get enough protein to make it worthwhile eating all that fat. Fat has over double the calories of carbs or protein per gram, and most bread is intrinsically fat heavy, so you don't rerally want a flour that is going to add much in the way of fat, because the caloric profile of it will knock you out of meaningful protein calories that are actually hard to craft into a proper diet, if you are concerned with actual diet and not some "list of good foods" junk science.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Or, if you are eating in a doctor approved keto way, almond flour and coconut flour are just fine.


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## newfieannie

how in the heck would you know? when I said I ate half a loaf I meant I ate half a loaf. it was very small to begin with because I am still experimenting. course I already said that it was a small pan. ~Georgia


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## barnbilder

newfieannie said:


> how in the heck would you know? when I said I ate half a loaf I meant I ate half a loaf. it was very small to begin with because I am still experimenting. course I already said that it was a small pan. ~Georgia


How many calories was it?


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## Alice In TX/MO

If you are doing keto, that's not very important.


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## barnbilder

Alice In TX/MO said:


> If you are doing keto, that's not very important.


That makes absolutely no sense. So let's get this straight, the keto diet has magical properties that allow it's practitioners to consume unlimited calories without succumbing to the laws of physics and mathematics? 

If you are seriously interested in losing weight, or if you are like me and you were obese and lost all of your excess body fat and are now trying to gain lean muscle weight, you better darn well know how many calories were in the half a loaf of bread you just ate. Last time I checked, with our smallest loaf pans, (any smaller would be a muffin and not a loaf) using the lower calorie flower blends, a half loaf is going to demolish your calories for the day. A couple slices is bad enough.


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## Terri

One of the benefits of the keto diet is that people say that nobody wants to eat very much of it. That means that the number of calories eaten is self-limiting. People say "I'm full" and voluntarily stop eating at about 1200 calories a day.

Or, so say those people who are on the keto diet: it did not work for me. I felt hungry 24/7. As I have often said, we are NOT all alike. Many people on the keto diet say they are rarely hungry but I am always hungry on it. Go figure.


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## barnbilder

With a fat heavy diet, 1200 calories could be a tiny amount of food. (1200 is going to be too low for most people to achieve effective weight loss by the way, but that is an entirely different mater).

Here is what I seriously think happens with people on the Keto diet. This is based on what I have heard on other fitness and weight loss sites and forums and from real life weight loss experiences. 

They get on this thing and because it is different, and they have to do things different, it changes their eating habits. It limits their caloric intake, because they are changing eating habits and avoiding certain foods, in this case carbs. We all know what happens when you limit caloric intake, boom, weight loss, so then they are true believers. 

Now once they figure out recipes, and they get used to eating tons of fats in place of carbs, and they get comfortable with it, if they let their caloric intake creep up they will start gaining. Real easy to get too many calories with a fat heavy diet. 

Some eventually figure out that caloric intake is what really matters, others start blaming even more carbs and getting even more extreme in their dieting. Which might work, if it results in a caloric deficit. Carbs don't make you fat. Fat doesn't make you fat. Eating too much makes you fat.


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## Alice In TX/MO

You know, I respect your experience with weight loss. It would be pleasant if you had respect for someone who has had an experience that is different from yours.


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## barnbilder

There is only one experience with weight loss to have. It is all math and physics. Unless there is some major shift in human evolution, everyone is pretty much bound by the same laws. There are nine calories per gram of fat. Protein and carbohydrates have only four. If you eat at a deficit, you will lose weight. If you eat at a surplus, you will gain weight. Protein can be burned for energy, used to generate muscle, or passed from the body. Carbs and fats will be burned or stored as fat. Fat and carbs are pretty much interchangeable, their respective caloric contribution is the only thing that matters in the long run.

Weight loss is based on calories. You won't lose weight because you have a list of bad foods and good foods. You will lose weight because you are at a caloric deficit. Too drastic of a deficit will cause changes in your body that will actually decrease your burn rate, making it that much harder to lose weight. In other words it takes longer. With a big deficit, taking longer means a risk of giving up, either totally or periodically. Binging, cheat days, or large meals made with "good" ingredients will undo any progress made if they happen too frequently.

Some people have medical conditions that make them less tolerant of certain macronutrients. But it still works the same way, as they are all interchangeable, just do the math and trade them while staying in a deficit. Fats and carbs don't really matter if you don't have one of those conditions. Protein matters, and you need to leave room for your protein in your total caloric intake. Discussion of ingredients and recipes are completely irrelevant when there is no mention of calories, macronutrient content in grams, etc. Pounding back a half loaf of bread is not a good way to lose weight, I don't care what kind of magic beans you make the flour from.

That said, bean flour is pretty good stuff, as it can pack a decent protein profile, if you don't let the carbs scare you. And black bean pasta, mmmm. 2 ounces dry spaghetti= 3g fat, 19g carbs and 25g protein. You can pretty much make sauce with pure sugar at that point and still have healthy spaghetti.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Nutrition is an evolving field of study. We don’t know all there is to know. 

Not that long ago, the wise ones said margarine was healthier than butter. That turned out to be 100% wrong.


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## HermitJohn

barnbilder said:


> That said, bean flour is pretty good stuff, as it can pack a decent protein profile, if you don't let the carbs scare you. And black bean pasta, mmmm. 2 ounces dry spaghetti= 3g fat, 19g carbs and 25g protein. You can pretty much make sauce with pure sugar at that point and still have healthy spaghetti.


Hope you never get diabetes. You will find out how important those carbs really are. Course then you will argue that insulin is just part of the package... LOL Hope you have insurance that pays for most of it cause that insulin and most other diabetes drugs are $$$$. But I still dont see your interest in arguing effectiveness of low carb. You obviously are happy with your high carb, high protein diet. More power to you. Though I think high carb plus high protein and low fat is just asking for health problems. Really a bad combination.

I personally dont want to count calories or starve myself like you apparently want to do. Low carb works for me, controls my blood sugar and I lost 50 pound without trying. 

Just remember how they fatten hogs for market. They dont feed them a high fat diet, they feed them a high carb diet and limit exercise by confining them in a feedlot. Course the farmer isnt planning a long life for that hog and isnt worried if it gets diabetes.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Interesting history....
https://idmprogram.com/historic-perspective-obesity-hormonal-obesity-1/


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## barnbilder

HermitJohn said:


> Hope you never get diabetes. You will find out how important those carbs really are. Course then you will argue that insulin is just part of the package... LOL Hope you have insurance that pays for most of it cause that insulin and most other diabetes drugs are $$$$. But I still dont see your interest in arguing effectiveness of low carb. You obviously are happy with your high carb, high protein diet. More power to you. Though I think high carb plus high protein and low fat is just asking for health problems. Really a bad combination.
> 
> I personally dont want to count calories or starve myself like you apparently want to do. Low carb works for me, controls my blood sugar and I lost 50 pound without trying.
> 
> Just remember how they fatten hogs for market. They dont feed them a high fat diet, they feed them a high carb diet and limit exercise by confining them in a feedlot. Course the farmer isnt planning a long life for that hog and isnt worried if it gets diabetes.



If you don't want to count calories, it is a free country. But for managing weight or diabetes anything else is pretty much getting a witch doctor to shake a monkey foot at it. Never said I was on a high carb diet. But I definitely don't eat like a pig anymore, because that is what made me fat. Doesn't matter what you eat, if you eat like a pig, you will soon look like one, and you can fatten hogs with fat just as easily as you can with carbs.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Barnbuilder, do you have a dog in this hunt? Skin in this game? A reason for banging the drum?


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## Alice In TX/MO

Another example of nutrition science changing....

https://gizmodo.com/diet-soda-might-still-contribute-to-diabetes-rat-study-1825393954/amp


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## HermitJohn

\


barnbilder said:


> you can fatten hogs with fat just as easily as you can with carbs.


So what kind of oil do you fatten your pigs on? LOL

https://physicalculturestudy.com/2014/12/04/why-coconut-oil-isnt-fit-for-pigs/


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## HermitJohn

barnbilder said:


> But for managing weight or diabetes anything else is pretty much getting a witch doctor to shake a monkey foot at it..


One potent monkey foot! Cause it works very well for me. Your mileage may vary.


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## painterswife

I know he doesn't get it yet but eating keto reduces hunger. That is how you reduce your calories. Not feeling hungry is the goal. Not worrying about the sugar crash cycle is the goal. How you get your calories is important. Eating all sugar is not good for your health. Carbs are sugar to your body. You don't eat just for calories. You eat for nutrition.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Understanding the insulin hormone trigger is crucial to those with Type Two Diabetes. 

That is one of the best reasons for considering the Keto was of eating. Stop the insulin trigger, stop the problem.


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## barnbilder

Carbs get turned to sugar and burned. Or they get stored. If you don't have carbs your body turns to protein to burn as energy. It can burn fat, or store it, it can burn carbs or store them, it can't really store protein, unless you count muscle synthesis, but that is a much more complicated process. Carbs are not necessarily sugar. There are a lot of carbs that come bundled with essential nutrients, both macro-nutrients, and micro-nutrients. Take your beloved coconut flour for instance. The problem I have with keto, is that people are relying on fat for fuel, when fat is so easy to get way too much of (calorically speaking) bundled with your protein sources. Cheese, meat, whole eggs, etc. If it weren't for carbs, then it would be very easy to hit your total daily caloric requirement without getting anywhere close to your protein requirement. Unless you supplement heavily with the various protein powders and drink your food instead of eating it. Fortunately most people that are on keto don't seem to have a clue, so they are getting plenty of carbs anyway. They run screaming from bread made from wheat flour and chug milk instead. Or use coconut flour.

Milk is loaded with sugar by the way. I fatten hogs with it. Lots of fat, some protein and some sugar. It is a perfect fattening agent. A few tree nuts, and some waste peanuts I get for cheap and boom, fat hogs. I have to pen them and put them on pure corn to lean them up for butchering.

I eat ice cream, m&ms, and stuff like that. Don't limit any food choices. I make them fit and can still lose weight while eating them. You don't have to do keto to lose weight. You can eat whatever you want. You have to do some planning, but you will have to do that anyway, if you are serious about weight loss.


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## painterswife

So you don't have any physical problems with eating more carbs and sugars that others do. I do. If I eat too much. I have pain. Pain from inflammation. I feel old, I ache, I feel foggy. If I eat few carbs and more fat I lose all those symptoms. I never get what others call a sugar crash. My energy is more consistent. I never get the shakes from not eating.

It is obvious that you have not become Keto adapted and understand the difference you feel eating this way. Yet you spend time insulting those that are. Keto is not about losing weight. It is about being healthy, understanding what carbs and sugar does to our bodies. You have found what works for you. Why can't you let us do what works for us with out the put downs?


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## barnbilder

Being overweight will cause all of the symptoms you describe. If you have health problems, and are ovcerweight, the first thing you should do is try to manage your weight. It will help immensely. If you have medical conditions that prevent a diet heavy with certain carbs, then don't eat as many carbs. Carbs and fats are interchangeable. But you need to manage your calories, if you are overweight and want to lose weight. Not having the nice low calorie carbs to work with and having to rely on the high calorie fats will make it very difficult to manage a diet properly. It can be done, but there is math involved, if you aren't doing the math, you aren't doing anything.


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## painterswife

barnbilder said:


> Being overweight will cause all of the symptoms you describe. If you have health problems, and are ovcerweight, the first thing you should do is try to manage your weight. It will help immensely. If you have medical conditions that prevent a diet heavy with certain carbs, then don't eat as many carbs. Carbs and fats are interchangeable. But you need to manage your calories, if you are overweight and want to lose weight. Not having the nice low calorie carbs to work with and having to rely on the high calorie fats will make it very difficult to manage a diet properly. It can be done, but there is math involved, if you aren't doing the math, you aren't doing anything.


Carbs and fat are not interchangeable. Not much more to say if you believe that. Carry on. I don't feel the need to educate you.


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## Terri

Barnbilder, fat in some people is an appetite suppressant.

The end.


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## painterswife

You don't need any carbs in your diet. You can live perfectly well on fat and protein. That is the difference between carbs and fat. Glucose is what some parts of your body need. Your body can make that from protein and fat.

I will add. Keto is not just about losing weight. My husband who is 6 foot 5 and 180-185 pounds is not overweight. He is healthiest and feels better when he is eating Keto. He has sustained energy through the day and does not feel tired after his lunch. He mood is better. When he is eating a higher carb diet he gets grumpy if does not eat. When Keto that does not happen because he does not run out of fuel when his tummy is empty. His body uses fat for fuel and always has enough to get through the day.


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## barnbilder

Carbs and fats are interchangeable, as they both provide calories. Granted fat provides more calories, and this is why it is more satisfying, you can fit more of it in your gullet, quicker. Neither will serve the role of protein, though protein can be burned to serve their role.


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## painterswife

barnbilder said:


> Carbs and fats are interchangeable, as they both provide calories. Granted fat provides more calories, and this is why it is more satisfying, you can fit more of it in your gullet, quicker. Neither will serve the role of protein, though protein can be burned to serve their role.


Carbs and fat are not interchangeable. You can live without carbs and still produce the glucose you need. You can't live without fats.


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## Alice In TX/MO

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/how-chris-mccandless-died

You can starve on a high protein, low fat diet.


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## barnbilder

If you have some good variety to your protein sources, you are going to get more than enough fat to function. Beyond that, yes, carbs and fats are intechangeable, as they are just fuel. The body does not need very much fat at all to function, or carbs for that matter.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Carbs trigger an insulin response. 

Fats don’t. 

Ask a diabetic if they are interchangeable.


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## barnbilder

I think I went over that.


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## painterswife

They are not interchangeable. They are different fuel sources. Ketones or glucose. Ketones are a much more efficient fuel system .


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## barnbilder

painterswife said:


> They are not interchangeable. They are different fuel sources. Ketones or glucose. Ketones are a much more efficient fuel system .


Yep. That's why gram per gram fats have over double the calories that carbohydrates do. I should have said, "calories from fats and calories from carbs are interchangeable". It would have confused you less.


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## painterswife

barnbilder said:


> Yep. That's why gram per gram fats have over double the calories that carbohydrates do. I should have said, "calories from fats and calories from carbs are interchangeable". It would have confused you less.


 I get what you are saying. You don't seem to get that those of us discussing keto understand that calories are not the only thing to consider when using this way of eating for health or weight loss.

You keep saying it is just about the calories. It is not. I could eat all my calories in sugar and be killing myself. My health will be far better eating my calories in fat and protein than protein and carbs.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Yeah, he doesn’t get it. 

It’s ok. 

I do. The rest of us do.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Why use almond flour? 
What is the difference between almond flour and almond meal?


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## barnbilder

You really need to study the first law of thermodynamics. Physics. You can't change physics.


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## painterswife

https://www.dietdoctor.com/first-law-thermodynamics-utterly-irrelevant


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## painterswife




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## painterswife




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## painterswife

http://davidgillespie.org/why-the-first-law-of-thermodynamics-has-no-place-in-human-nutrition/


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## painterswife

https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2007/10/04/thermodynamics-and-weight-loss/


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## Danaus29

My experience from my big carb reduction (haven't done keto all the way yet for several reasons, working on them but it will take time) is that even though I might feel full from bread, gravy, pasta, etc., I am hungry again within a couple hours. I can consume the same number of calories with no carbs and feel satisfied longer. I have discovered that eating a lot of carbs also makes me feel tired and run down faster. Same calories, no carbs and I can run all day. 

Since my family tree was filled with diabetics and people with high blood pressure I am feeling the need to really watch carb consumption. My grandfather had diabetes which was managed through diet and exercise when he was at home. When he spent some time in the hospital they could not keep his sugar levels under control. At that time his calorie count was very strictly regulated but carbs were not. He was cranky and hungry most of the time. Once back home he went back on his regular diet including a daily breakfast of bacon and eggs and within a week his blood sugar levels were back to normal. He was even able to eat an occasional bowl of ice cream or a couple cookies without blood sugar spikes. At that time carbohydrate regulation for diabetics wasn't even an option offered by health care professionals. They all told him he should eat a bowl of unsweetened oatmeal for breakfast and never have the bacon and eggs. 

There is no "one size fits all" diet for weight loss or optimal health. What works for one may not work for another. If people want to experiment with alternative solutions when the accepted norm is not working then why keep telling them it can't possibly work? They already know that what they have tried doesn't work. So what if using alternative flours is not something everyone would do? It is an alternative other people want to explore. If alternative eating habits are not harming the person trying them, why keep telling them they are wrong? 

I saw a shelf full of low carb items at Big Lots a couple days ago. I haven't done any comparison shopping at other stores yet. It was interesting to see the different items.


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## barnbilder

It seems there are a lot of bloggers out there that deny basic laws of physics. It's really simple. You can blame carbs, or you can blame yourself for gaining weight. There are good carbs out there. Just like good fats. Trans fats have calories, but they don't do much else for you. Same with sugar.

Doesn't matter if they are bad or good, if you consume too many calories from carbs or fats,you are going to be fat. Being fat doesn't do anything for your heart health, your diabetes, or your joints.

It seems that all of the pro-keto/anti-carb bloggers miss a key factor, a most beneficial component of some really good carbohydrate food sources, and a carbohydrate itself, is fiber. You can live without it, but not very happy and healthy. It has some of the same benefits for weight loss, hormonal regulation, and so forth that people want to attribute to forcing metabolic disorders through fat intake, yet get thrown under the bus with the whole "carbs are bad" group-think.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Actually, no.

https://thenourishedcaveman.com/the-right-fiber-for-a-ketogenic-diet-my-research


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## barnbilder

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Actually, no.
> 
> https://thenourishedcaveman.com/the-right-fiber-for-a-ketogenic-diet-my-research


So an opinion blog trumps science once again. Nice.


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## HermitJohn

barnbilder said:


> It seems that all of the pro-keto/anti-carb bloggers miss a key factor, a most beneficial component of some really good carbohydrate food sources, and a carbohydrate itself, is fiber. .


LOL, apparently you are clueless about flax. I made several posts in this thread about flax. Flax is VERY high fiber. So are nuts and other high oil seeds. High fiber but their calories mostly from fat. So is most non-starchy fresh produce high fiber. Still dont think you get enough fiber, add real bran (not the sugared bran cereal in a box), its darn near ALL fiber. 

You seem to want to pretend low carb means living on buckets of lard. You can be low carb, but vegetarian and high fiber. Get a clue. If anything biggest problem with most diets is that they dont inclued enough non-starchy fresh produce. Want a seriously healthy food pyramid/plate, it would be 3/4 fresh non-starchy produce and little bit of everything else. But you will never see that. Fresh produce is expensive and considered a luxury by most. Grains and thus grain fed meats and grain derived fillers and other mystery factory foods are subsidized heavily by govt.

I am also not seeing you post any scientific data supporting your theory that people will sicken and die without a large amount of sugar and starch? Your body needs very few carbs and definitely not the high concentration carb foods like grain. You eat any plant derived food and you get some carbs. Plenty for body's needs. Pay attention, its LOW carb, not NO carb. 

And now I am seeing your theory that all calories are equal that you think people could just buy a hundred pound bag sugar, pure cane sugar, and live entirely on that. Many spoons full of sugar keeps the barnbildr healthy? After all just well live on cake and candy if all carbs are equal....


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## HermitJohn

barnbilder said:


> So an opinion blog trumps science once again. Nice.


Your science seems to be a blanket statement by you that all calories are equal? How about something to back up this nonsense? How about some studies feeding rats entirely on sugar to prove all calories are equal?


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## Terri

Folks, I have edited this thread before and I will do it again if people cannot disagree with COURTESY!

People are entitled to hold their own opinions, whether or not other people agree.


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## Alice In TX/MO

With my previous post, I referenced a blog that discussed how fiber is incorporated into the ketogenic diet. It addressed your concern directly.

Thank you for the opportunity to clarify.


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## barnbilder

Carbs are not harmful for people without diseases or metabolic disorders. Fats are not harmful to people without diseases or metabolic disorders. Sugar, or lard, as a diet staple with no variety could be harmful. Being obese is harmful. Exclusive diets seldom work for most people. Most people aren't willing to do the math required for an exclusive diet to be healthy and effective. Non exclusive diets, based on math work for a multitude of people, even those with diseases and metabolic disorders. 

If you can't tolerate carbs, great, just eat fats. It is a no brainer. But you need to measure the fats you are putting in. You need to hit your protein target, you need to hit your calorie target, and after that the fat/carb debate is a matter of personal preference/tolerance. 

Promoting a diet as the be all end all diet plan, without any math involved is scary dangerous to unsuspecting people. I see no discussion on any of these threads of calories, grams of nutrients in a recipe. Just lists of good foods/bad foods, and blogs about good foods/bad foods. Foods are tools to promote health and should be chosen very carefully. Sometimes it is not just about fuel for you, it's about fuel for the organisms that live inside you. That is largely an emerging science, still in it's infancy. Severely restricting large groups of foods from the diet is bad for microbial health. Makes little sense for anyone to do it UNLESS they have a medical reason to do so.


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## painterswife

I can see that you don't really understand Keto. Eating Keto you have targets or macros as we call them. We eat protien, fat and carbs in ratios depending on our goals. Different people can tweak those macros depending on their tolerances and how active they are. Keto is not just for losing weight. It is for our health. 

It is just not about fuel or calories. It is also about blood sugar and hormones, satiety and no sugar crashing. It is about sustained energy and ketones that are the best fuel for your brain. 

You see no discussion because you only seem to want to tell us we are doing this wrong. You have not read the books, studies or reports we have. You don't belong to groups that discuss the science. I have been studying this for almost three years since I first saw Moonriver discussing it. I have tested my body for glucose since then. I know what different foods do to my blood sugar and blood pressure. I know how I feel when I eat different foods. I know what works for me. I don't come here an insult what works for you.

You just cut down this way of eating and promote your way but you are not us.


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## Terri

barnbilder said:


> Makes little sense for anyone to do it UNLESS they have a medical reason to do so.


And yet half of us *DO* have a "medical reason" to follow the diets we are following. That is kind of the whole point. That is why some of us ended up here, and why people keep talking about their blood sugars. Healthy people do not KNOW what their blood sugars are doing, and they do not need to.


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## Alice In TX/MO

Exactly, Terri. I am cooking for a friend who is Type 2 diabetic, overweight, with a fatty liver, and elevated liver enzymes. That was eight weeks ago.

I started really working on the Ketogenic way of eating after that doctor visit at the VA.

The last VA visit on Tuesday was an eye opener. His glucose level was 109. The liver enzymes were in better shape. He has lost weight. Down from 213 to 198.

The doctor was very happy AND supporting of the Ketogenic way of eating.

The nurse said, "Oh, yeah, I'm keto, too. My sister starting eating keto and got off her Type 2 Diabetes meds because she doesn't need them anymore."


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## HermitJohn

barnbilder said:


> Carbs are not harmful for people without diseases or metabolic disorders. Fats are not harmful to people without diseases or metabolic disorders. Sugar, or lard, as a diet staple with no variety could be harmful. Being obese is harmful. Exclusive diets seldom work for most people. Most people aren't willing to do the math required for an exclusive diet to be healthy and effective. Non exclusive diets, based on math work for a multitude of people, even those with diseases and metabolic disorders.


Ok, if a calorie is a calorie then why would a diet of only sugar or lard be harmful? I thought you stated that a diet is only about regulating the units of heat, namely the calorie.

Once again I see no SCIENTIFIC proof on your part that a human body or any other mammal body treats an ingested calorie of fat the same as it does an ingested calorie of sugar. This idea of treating a calorie of anything as a unit of heat would mean we could just fill ourselves up on eyedroppers of gasoline. The devil is in the details and you are ignoring the details and passing this off as established fact when you have established nothing except a calorie of heat is a calorie of heat. So unless you want to say humans can live on gasoline cause the body only sees a calorie as a calorie....



barnbilder said:


> If you can't tolerate carbs, great, just eat fats. It is a no brainer. But you need to measure the fats you are putting in. You need to hit your protein target, you need to hit your calorie target, and after that the fat/carb debate is a matter of personal preference/tolerance.


Again why would I measure when my body tells me to stop eating when eating fat? I lost 50 pound without counting anything, just no grain. I already didnt eat much sugar. Whereas my body doesnt apparently have the same ability to signal to stop eating with a high carb intake! I say you only need to count calories and literally starve yourself, if you are eating significant carbs. And then your body adjusts when it detects starvation mode and lowers your metabolism to conserve fat. It protects you but also makes you lethargic. And means you lose no weight. But again your theory ignores this and makes believe a calorie is a calorie and the body burns calories at a set rate and doesnt raise or lower level of metabolism.

Obviously also you missed that link about hogs LOSING weight when fed coconut oil. This was more than half century ago but apparently the take back then on it, was that something in the grain affects the thyroid, slows it down and piles on the weight. Something the coconut oil didnt have. Even though same amount of calories. Oh but I forget, for you a calorie is just a calorie and there is no difference in way it affects the body..... Cause for sure the devil cant be in the details can it? 

As to protein, I have yet to see anybody diagnosed lacking in protein if they are getting enough daily calories. I suppose if all those calories come from non-natural foods that are mostly carbs and artificial colors and flavorings... But by food, meaning natural minimally processed foods even lettuce contains protein as does nearly everything else. And saying you need meat for muscle, where do the herbivores get their muscle that the carnivores eat? Also if you arent getting enough total calories, most likely you arent getting enough of anything. If you were on an intentional starvation diet like you think is only right and proper way to lose weight, then you would have to be very careful to get nutrients you need. Just observe the anorexics out there! They count calories and if they determine they have too many, they toss their cookies. They tend to have lot of traditional starvation related nutritional diseases. Few people in USA not getting enough total calories and experiencing actual physical starvation. They most likely arent getting nutrients they need, but junk calories not that hard to come by in this society.



barnbilder said:


> Severely restricting large groups of foods from the diet is bad for microbial health. Makes little sense for anyone to do it UNLESS they have a medical reason to do so.


I thought you were saying a calorie is a calorie? Again where is the SCIENTIFIC proof that you need large quantities of carbohydrates? What else do carbohydrates do other than provide blood glucose? You just keep restating your own simplified theory, show us some research! Most cultures through ages those that ate high carb diet was because it was easily available and CHEAP, not cause they needed huge quantities of carbs. In other words ECONOMICS, not nutrition. I think it would be extremely difficult to not get enough carbs if you eat any plant foods at all.


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## Danaus29

barnbilder said:


> Makes little sense for anyone to do it UNLESS they have a medical reason to do so


And therein lies the quantifier. People who start and stay on keto diets HAVE a medical reason to do so.
You still have to factor in the second law of thermodynamics and gibbs free energy. Energy can be stored or expended, it all depends on a catalytic reaction. It's a system that really deserves more research in regards to metabolism and diets. 

I did find a bit of research on the subject:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC543577/


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## barnbilder

painterswife said:


> I can see that you don't really understand Keto. Eating Keto you have targets or macros as we call them. We eat protien, fat and carbs in ratios depending on our goals. Different people can tweak those macros depending on their tolerances and how active they are.


That is exactly what I do. But because I am not diabetic, I don't really worry about carbs. Had 259 grams of them today.


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## Alice In TX/MO

That’s great!


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