# Trying to utilize land with cattle, sheep, and goats together



## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

I'm going to post this same thread on the goat, sheep, and cattle board to try and utilize more good responses and ideas. 

Here's the deal: I have goats, sheep, and cattle. None of the species are purebred anything. I can't specifically say I'm a purebred Nubian, Jersey, or Katadhin breeder. I can say I have goats, sheep, and cattle. 

What I'm interested in has been some inner desire for several years now to better utilize my land. This strong belief that I'm only getting a small percentage out of my grass/weed growing ability has lit a fire inside me to put forth some effort over the winter to hit the ground running come spring.

I don't have the ideal situation for rotational grazing. My property is an 80 acre rectangle but the topography prohibits me from cutting the ground up into equal sizes or shapes. In fact, it's rolling hills, rocks, and hardwoods for the most part. The only grass that grows there is what I have planted after clearing a 4-5 acre spot here or there on a somewhat flat area. I try to have a dozer come once every year or two and clear a little bit more land. Some of it will never be utilized for farming or grazing but will make a great supply of lumber and firewood. 

I've tried to do what most farmers in my area have done and that's to establish bermuda grass as soon as I get the land cleared. However, even if you get it to grow the work has just begun. I think for every bermuda seed I plant there's about 10 million weed seeds brought in by wind, rain, and bird droppings. While I'm not opposed to weed sprays I think that if I was a better grazing manager I could utilize the critters I have on the place to graze these weeds instead of wasting tractor deisel and spraying or brush-hogging. 

There has to be a way with all the critters I have to utilize the ground I have. With all the natural fertilizer they make me, I also don't want to buy anymore commercial fertilizer. In fact, I don't see how one can make money if they have to fertilizer their property in order to get grass to grow. 

Back when God created all of this there weren't any anhydrous ammonia plants or chemical companies and it all worked out just fine. 

What are some of your thought?


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

Goats are Browsers, they prefer woodland scrub type they like to eat with their heads up, big weeds and such are on the menue as well, to a lesser extent they will eat grass and lower weeds if nessisary, but would rather clear the underbrush and trees, opening up new areas, there is a guy over on the Goat page i think that did this, turning woodland into more open grazeing land with goats, 

Sheep graze but more selectively, they will go through the pasture and pic out the clover and dandilion and other low to the ground lush weeds along with the grass, they will clean up the grass so its more grazeable, just look at the pictures of the deep green grassland of England and Irland, that land scape was created with sheep grazeing,

Cattle graze, they are not as selective but will search out the best green lush grass first, they would rather have grass and clover over just about anything else, they will eat other things when they have too but grass is their thing,

theoretically you could run your goats in your brush and forest area and let them clean it back, cut trees as you can for them to clean up, burn the dead wood, let grass and weeds move in, run sheep thru it to clean up the weeds and then the cattle will have a nice green pasture, 
but it will take alot of managment to accomplish this


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

KSALguy said:


> but it will take alot of management to accomplish this


great info, but:

how MUCH management are you thinking? Is this subjective, or are there set guides available somewhere?


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

you would need to fence each section to work and have multiple sections going at one time to keep the system running with out over doing any one section, goats would lead the way, it takes time to clear large growth with out ruining the land, likewise it has to settle so the goats can work thru each stage, then as that settles and grass and weeds take over the sheep need time to work but not near as much time, then after that cattle need to be grazed responcibly so as to not over graze,


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

so "MiG or Rotational" grazing systems, how LONG for each type of animal in each rotation time frame?


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

this would have to be a case by case basis, you would have to keep and eye on how the given area is responding, the longest time will be getting the trees and scrub transitioned out with the goats, and then the shortest would be the middle section with the sheep, but technically there is also quite a bit of over lap here between the Goats and the sheep depending on what your starting with,


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

These are actually the kinds of details I'm specifically interested in. I've considered taking an inventory of all the different breeds and species of grasses and weeds I have growing. Then, I'd need to do some research on what critter will specifically eat what. I realize an animal's pallet can be trained somewhat, but I'd like to have them ready and willingly eat what's in front of them.

As well, to decrease manpower input, I'd like to have all three species run together if possible. I realize the goat and sheep mineral intakes would be an issue, but other than that it ought to work shouldn't it?


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

I'll be watching this as this is something I want to experiment with also. Another point to consider is the stocking density of the different breeds. For example, I have mostly grass with a little bit of browse and tall weeds. 5 goats would be all I need. You have mostly trees and scrub you may need 20 goats. Will hot wire hold all your critters? Pig tail posts and polywire on a reel are perfect for portable fencing. It is suited to making making any size or shape paddock that you need. It is very quick and easy to lay out a paddock.


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

*all of this depends on what your starting with both in location, soil type, and plants available*

you could run all three togather but it would in my mind make it harder to keep from over grazeing an area, if your working to clean woodland and scrub the goats are going to eat at eye level first, and work their way up, this will open up the undergrowth but if the trees are thick and havy you will have to cut them down as you go, the goats will eat this back to dead wood for you to remove, after you have worked an area with goats to this point its going to look pretty bare, you will need to take the goats off and let the ground rest, it will regrow into what was there underneath the tree cover before weather you knew it was there or not, its probably going to be regrowth of small trees and bushes, bramble and weeds will move in first, its like shaveing back layers of growth, you cant do it all at once, put the goats back in to clean up the next round, depending on what your working with it could take several times of takeing the goats off and putting them back on to work down to a mostly soft weed and grass mix, the goats eating the new growth as its given time to come back will kill back the trees and brush growth as well as their droppings help build up the top soil, because of the way you would be working the goats on the area it would be best to have several smaller sections to work the goats thru like a rotaion, that way they can clean the whole thing without over grazeing and damageing the land so it can regrow in the way you want it, (_also this method will greatly reduce your parasite load_) i really wish i knew who it was that has already done this with his land and goats he had some really good pictures of the whole process, 
by slowly cutting back the brush and trees with goats the only real heavy work for humans would be removeing the dead wood, you wont have to till or plant or work the soil any anyway, it will take care of its self, both with the root systems in place still holding it all togather and the added goat manuer and then as the new plants move in and take up the space provided by the big stuff being eaten back,


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

its like createing a grassland, it takes the browsers to keep the edges clean for the grazers, and then above the browsers it takes the big heavy movers to make more room, like in africa, the Elephants break open new places to be cleaned up then the browsers clean up the brush and thorny stuff left behind and along the edges, then the grazers are able to eat the grass, 
goats are your browsers to clean up the stickery thorny woody plants keeping them from takeing over the grass, your takeing the role of the Elephant knocking down trees for the goats to eat opening up new areas, sheep will help clean the new low growth of the lower stickers and weeds, and then its all ready for the cattle,


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

I've been running cattle and goats together for several years. No sheep. It works very well.

I have a mix of trees and pasture. Both the cattle (Dexters) and the goats like to browse the shrubs and both like to graze the pasture.

My cattle won't eat very close to a cow pile, but the goats will. This keeps the pasture pretty even. It looks nice.

Both cattle and goats have worm parasites, but they're not the same worms. Every cattle worm that a goat eats, dies. Same for goat worms that a cow eats. It keeps the worm load down on the pasture. I almost never worm the cattle and seldom do the goats.

I don't keep sheep because of the problem with copper. Sheep are sensitive to it and cows and goats need it.

When I started running cattle and goats, the wooded portion was so dense you couldn't penetrate it. Poison ivy, honeysuckle, wild rose, blackberry and sweet gum saplings predominated. All that is gone now and some of the trees are dead. The goats eat the bark, girdling the tree. Before too many more years, there will be pastureland where the trees are .

My pastures are divided into 4 paddocks and the cattle and goats rotate through with the cattle. They feed together, sort of. I mean that they both have access to the same pasture, but the cattle stay there grazing almost all the time. The goats come and go back to their loafing spots.

One thing I look for is tall grass. In my opinion, anything that grows tall does so because the cattle and goats won't eat it. That makes it a weed. Stealing nutrients from the soil without nourishing the livestock. So I cut it. Bush-hog. Hopefully before it goes to seed.

Genebo
Paradise Farm


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

"What I'm interested in has been some inner desire for several years now to better utilize my land. This strong belief that I'm only getting a small percentage out of my grass/weed growing ability has lit a fire inside me to put forth some effort over the winter to hit the ground running come spring."

I fully agree that you are not utilizing the property to maximize its potential.

"What I'm interested in has been some inner desire for several years now to better utilize my land. This strong belief that I'm only getting a small percentage out of my grass/weed growing ability has lit a fire inside me to put forth some effort over the winter to hit the ground running come spring."

I know of no one that has a place that rotational grazing fits perfectly but do not let that stop you. A paddock can be any size or shape. Rotational grazing lets a person maximize the potential of properties that have issues IMO. There is no need to wait till Spring to start. Get yourself a spritzer bottle and the herbicide Remedy and start killing the undesirable underbrush and open up the soil to the sun. The brush will rot in a few years or you can burn it. I use to try to pick up all the roots and limbs from land clearing. It was a near waste of time. The native grasses and the sown seed emerged just fine with them present. The brush hog broke the remnants of the trash to where it was not a problem.

"I've tried to do what most farmers in my area have done and that's to establish bermuda grass as soon as I get the land cleared. However, even if you get it to grow the work has just begun. I think for every bermuda seed I plant there's about 10 million weed seeds brought in by wind, rain, and bird droppings. While I'm not opposed to weed sprays I think that if I was a better grazing manager I could utilize the critters I have on the place to graze these weeds instead of wasting tractor deisel and spraying or brush-hogging."

Doing what others are doing is where I think you are making a mistake! You are replicating problems that preexist. Rotational grazing will make you a better manager and a better steward of the property. There are numerous forages that could work for you and possibly in conjunction with the bermuda. Some of these forages may already exist but are suppressed by the existing but not beneficial growth that is present. If you have not read a large portion of the above sticky on rotational grazing you may find it worthwhile.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

I have to get started with figuring the stocking rate of the different species and get a solar charger bought. 
agman, I have plans to get started on it during this winter. However, with my desire to have square or uniform paddocks, I figure it would just make it easier to move my electric fence strip. I was up at UpNorth's place last Fall and liked the way they moved theirs. Kinda one of those "monkey see, monkey do" things. I'm open to suggestions on how to break up my ground into even sized paddocks. (I'd like to have them even so I get a uniform plan going on rotation and regrowth.) I don't want to have them on paddock "A" for 3 days and paddock "B" for 10 days and so forth.
As far as different grasses, weeds, and legumes. One of my best friends is the county extension agent and has a lot of resources to tap from the Oklahoma State University. He has been very helpful on the rotational grazing part. There just isn't much printed information on combining the three species. I don't want to have to do any mechanical removal of vegetation such as brushogging or weed spraying. I don't mind the initial use of remedy or dozing the brush. But once it is open I want to use grazers to remove it.


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## Up North (Nov 29, 2005)

Some additional info on the rotational grazing end of things (or at least how we do things). One of the big reasons why we like the portable fencing is that we can size the paddock to the conditions that we are running the cows through. In the spring flush we give the girls a bigger paddock. Everything is young and green and they will eat it all with no problems. This time of year I have my paddocks really small. I have lush new clovers/alfalfa with older headed out grasses. If I gave the girls a big paddock they would eat all the clover and alfalfa and leave all the mature stuff. With a very small paddock I force them to eat everything, allowing them a more balanced diet and all those mature grasses are not wasted. So what I guess I'm trying to say is that you don't necessarily have to have a set *even* sized paddock. In WI we did and it was fine but I like the flexibility I have now better.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

francismilker
IMO it is impossible to predetermine the specific size of a paddock to met the needs of the animals being grazed. Initially I attempted to standardize on my paddocks based on the limited information available. It did not take very long to realize I had a problem. I now have two parallel permanent wires that are rather lengthy. I use the step in place metal pigtail posts and polywire to allocate the amount of forage that the animals are given access. I create a temporary fence behind and ahead of the animals with the herd in between the two parallel polywires. Depending on the time of year and the amount of rain and the content of the herd I can very efficiently utilize the available forages. This works great and can be adapted to most any layout. I think you need to reconsider and become flexible if you want to maximize the use of the place you have and to arrive as a low cost producer that is more profitable than a conventional producer.


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

moveable hotwire temporary fences work great for cattle, and even sheep to a point, but when you combine Goats and Woodland/scrub, they dont really make much more than a HOT MESS, the wires will get shorted out and tangled in the scrub, goats are NOTORIOUS for finding a way out of fence of ANY kind let alone a simple hotwire temp fence, you will need to break up your woodland area which is the main issue it seams with this whole concept of converting it into useable pasture for the cattle and sheep, set up your hot wire temp rotaion fencing in the open grassland you have already, then break up your woods and scrub into workable sections to rotate your goats thru to clean them up, your really looking at TWO COMPLEATLY differint setups for the diversity of your topography, once you have the woods and scrub cleaned up you can open things back up and run all of them togather, 

or just put one big fence around the whole thing put everyone in all at once and let them figure their own way out,


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Provided you have a good perimeter fence who cares where the goats are? If the temporary and the permanent fences are hot enough the goats will not destroy the setup. They may crawl under as the deer do here but seldom do any damage.


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

goats will get tangled in the wire, i have had the misfortune to find them tangled both soon enough and too late, 

besides the fact that its the same concept as rotaional grazeing with the cattle, you limit the area the cattle have access too so that they eat all the grass and dont leave any, you would do the same with the goats in the woods and scrub so they clean it up instead of just picking thru it,


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

How about the electric panels for sheep to use on the goats? it's woven wire that's about to be elec. 

I have been working on understanding rotational grazing for a year now. I have decided to put in a good perimeter fence and use the temporary fencing where and as I see the pasture needs it. A wet year will be different than a droughty year. Late spring - early fall? Too many variables. I was working to take into account all the variables and finally realized that I can't do that ahead of time. Decisions about grazing have to be made as it happens not six months before. 

Now if I can just figure out how to get those silly sheep to eat what everyone says they will eat...so far...they seem to eat exactly what the cows do- only they leave the alfalfa to grow...???silly sheep.


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## KSALguy (Feb 14, 2006)

the woven electric netting might work, i have never used it, goats have to be "Trained" to respect electric fence, their natural reaction to getting shocked is to eather run right thru it or freak out with legs going every which way and getting tangled eather just ripping it down or getting stuck, goats and electric wire is complicated in the open flat setting of a good grassy pasture, when you add tree debri and brush and all the other things you run up against in a hilly wooded scrubby area its next to impossible, goats need tall strong fence lines other wise they can jump over or smash down what ever it is, the best fence line i was able to maintain with out alot of upkeep on my part was a 5 strand tight barbed wire base with a woven wire overlay on the inside part of the fence, goats will lean and rub against the fence to scratch bowing the fence out and breaking it down, the barbed wire structure supports the woven to keep that from happening, large goats will stand on their back legs with their front feet on the top edge of the fence reaching up into trees pushing down and streaching the wire out, 
Goats treat their environment alot differint than other livestock and if you want them to do the job of cleaning up thick heavy brush and trees you have to know how to manage them, if you let them roam the whole pasture they will eat a little from here and a little from there, their favorite things will be eaten down first and cleaned up but everything else will wait untill they feel like it, thats why you have to make them clean an area compleatly before moveing them to the next,


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

agmantoo said:


> francismilker
> IMO it is impossible to predetermine the specific size of a paddock to met the needs of the animals being grazed. Initially I attempted to standardize on my paddocks based on the limited information available. It did not take very long to realize I had a problem. * I now have two parallel permanent wires that are rather lengthy. I use the step in place metal pigtail posts and polywire to allocate the amount of forage that the animals are given access. I create a temporary fence behind and ahead of the animals with the herd in between the two parallel polywires. * Depending on the time of year and the amount of rain and the content of the herd I can very efficiently utilize the available forages. This works great and can be adapted to most any layout. I think you need to reconsider and become flexible if you want to maximize the use of the place you have and to arrive as a low cost producer that is more profitable than a conventional producer.


Great idea! I can see this working for me as well. Thanks. I'll have to try some diverse shapes and sizes though due to the topography of my place.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

Up North said:


> Some additional info on the rotational grazing end of things (or at least how we do things). * One of the big reasons why we like the portable fencing is that we can size the paddock to the conditions that we are running the cows through.* In the spring flush we give the girls a bigger paddock. Everything is young and green and they will eat it all with no problems. This time of year I have my paddocks really small. I have lush new clovers/alfalfa with older headed out grasses. If I gave the girls a big paddock they would eat all the clover and alfalfa and leave all the mature stuff. With a very small paddock I force them to eat everything, allowing them a more balanced diet a nd all those mature grasses are not wasted. So what I guess I'm trying to say is that you don't necessarily have to have a set *even* sized paddock. In WI we did and it was fine but I like the flexibility I have now better.


Good food for thought here. From what I remember about my tour of your pasture, you didn't have an over abundance non desireables do you? Are the cattle adapting to eating "all" the standing growth based upon you limiting there access to the quantity of good stuff? 

BTW, how's the newly planted field north of your place doing with the recent rains?


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## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

So, how did this work out? Are the cattle and sheep happy together?


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## trbizwiz (Mar 26, 2010)

I am quite curious as to how this turned out too. 

One thing with grazing. It is better to jump in and start than to do a bunch of plannig on stocking rates and such. there are so many factors to grazing that you can rarely work it out on paper. If you over stock hay is an option. iF you under stock, just shrink your grazing area and allow the rest to stockpile for lean seasons. 

I am intrigued by the use of goats. there is much forage left over when I move my animals that would probably be ideal goat forage. Usually its the forage around patties that may not have spread.


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## SCRancher (Jan 11, 2011)

I am interested in this also however I will not implement anything other than Cattle until I move to my farm (which means building a house).

Once I do however I have some thoughts that my also be of interest.

I have read that pigs are ideal renovators - so move the goats in to clear (or not) then put pigs in the area. They will root up, dig up and manure the ground - my father-in-law used to raise hogs and when he wanted to clear an area of brush AND trees he would lock his hogs up in the area. The hogs would eventually dig the trees out and fell them.

Regarding training animals to an electric fence. I built a training area - it's probabily 30 x 30. When I got my cattle they had never encountered an electric fence. I put water in there for them and then simply left them alone for 3 days with out food. On the 2nd day they would try to reach through the fence to get to the grass on the other side. On day 3 they quit trying and just bawled about it.

Mind you I have a fence charger that put's out 9.5 kv so it's not something anything want's to touch a 2nd time. I doubt my solar charger would have been enough deterrent and only hurt my training.

When I eventually do get my goats and sheep they will also get a similar training. Think I'll shave the sheep first though....

Anyway anyone else consider pigs in the creation and renovation of pasture?


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## trbizwiz (Mar 26, 2010)

Yes, I doubt a true solar charger would ever keep a goats attention. You probably need a large 12 volt charger with a solar panel to power a battery. Most solar chargers are around 1/4 joule. I have an x3 that is 3 joules on 10,000 feet of wire with some grass touching th ewire. It turns the grass brown and kills it, adn lays the lumber to anything that touches the wire. My muck boots keep me fairly insulated so I cna touch and cross wires if needed. My Stayfix x3 is either 12 volt or 110. I have mine plugged in, but I would not hesitate to clip it on a battery and charge with solar if I needed too. i called th emanufacturer adn they recomended a deep cell battery and a 30 watt solar pannel. they said I could get a deep enough charge to run for 28 days on full power with little to no sun with that setup. Usually in winter we will not have more than 10 or so days with little ot no sun.


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## SCRancher (Jan 11, 2011)

Found it - knew I read it somewhere:


> Pigs are also used on Salatin's farm to till fields for crops and to clear scrubby land for pasture. Pigs are so keen and so strong, they will even clear quite large tree roots right out of the ground - a little sprinkle of corn around the offending stump or root is all the encouragement they need.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

Over the past year since this thread's initiation I've gotten pretty salty at utilizing my ground to it's full potential for the time. While it may not be the best idea, it's low input and it works for me at the time. I simply keep all species under the same fence and move them all at the same time from pasture to pasture. When they're finished with a paddock, it's wiped clean of weeds, grass, and brush. Since my stocking rate is a lot lower now than what it was when I started this method, I'm not overgrazing the different paddocks. Also, my paddocks are large enough that they have time to recover before regrazing.


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## trbizwiz (Mar 26, 2010)

Awesome follow up. Do you find it challenging to keep the goats in? What type of fencing are you using?


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

The glory of my operation is that I'm the only person living at the dead-end of a three mile road in a very secluded area. If my critters get out, the only thing I have to worry about is a mad wife when her garden is in season. Other than that, some goat poop on the porch is the biggest hassle! 

Seriously, I use a fifty mile fence charger on a couple of hot wires ran close to the ground on a barb wire fence. They may get out of it once, but they remember what that wire done to them and don't get really excited about lowering themselves to the grounded position to get another shot of it. 

With the drought that we're in right now, everything growing is fair game. (Except for the boss's garden) I refuse to mow perfectly good grazing when the pastures are dry and crispy. I will say though, the dry grass conditions are forcing them all to do more browsing back in the thick stuff. When all the tender and green stuff is unavailable they'll find something to eat. And that usually means vines, briars, and bushes so it's working well for me.


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## okiemom (May 12, 2002)

I run goats w/ cows. love it. the goats go to my fil's for the winter. the hardest thing is keeping the goats in . currently I cant get my charger to zap the goats enought for them to no get in my yard and eat all my new trees. the fencer works though I have gotten into it severa times. 

goats make the nicest cow pasture. i use 3 strand hot wire and it is not enough they will still shove through. I want to re fence my acerage w/ goat 2x4 fencing but that is going to be a huge deal and might not be possible. goats have killed out most ofthe thistle and poision ivy. they do also eat the clover. 

I am thinking that i might just buy somme wethers and raise them to butchering size and then sell and start over when needed. breeding goats is tought here as the boers are not very hardy. they are worse than sheep for trying to die for no reason. I have spet years culling and it is getting better but they are still not as hardy as what we were lead to believe. the local vet sold out do to them dieing off. 

I was also wondering about using sheep if they were easier to keep in.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

okiemom, 
The way I acheived success with my hotwire fence is to run 3 hot wires with a ground wire in between each one that is connected to a ground rod. With our Oklahoma drought conditions they don't get that good of a jolt when it's dry outside. As well, the standard charger recommended for goats doesn't do the trick. I went and bought a 50-mile charger from TSC and they definately know it when they touch it. Usually the first time it gets them they are in the process of going under it so when they get zapped they go ahead and go on through. They are definately leery of getting close to it the second time though.


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