# Wind generator, Need help...



## justmyluk (Apr 28, 2005)

I just bought a small wind generator (200 watt...30 volt dc ametek motor) off ebay. Hooked it up to a 7 foot test pole in the back yard and tested it with a meter. In a good stiff breeze it was puting out a little over 16 volts. In higher winds it should put out a little more.

I have 90 watts of solar panels (harbor freight)running thru a Juta 20 amp charge controller that works great. I know I should run the wind wind generator thru a charge controller with a diversion load but I don't know how much of a load or what type (ie water heater, light bank etc.)I should put on the batteries (2 deep cycle marine) in a worse case senario (high winds).

Also Let's say I was not home and I was running a diversion load. What would happen if the diversion load burned out or the fuse blows to the load, what happens to the batteries? Will they continue to charge and over charge, causing a fire hazzard?

This is just a small project that I am running out in my shop to get a feel for alternative energy (running my shop lights and a few outlets off a 1200 watt inverter). If it works out I might try running it to part of the house, maybe converting one room at a time as I get my feet wet.

What are you running? I need all the help I can get...


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

How big (amp hour rating) are the batteries? If they are big enough you might not need a load--I have no idea what "deep cycle marine" batteries might be. If they are physically the size of automotive batteries, the maximum of 15 amps or so that the wind generator might be able to put out could overcharge and overheat them, so the diversion load would be a good idea. The Xantrex C40 is a good choice for a diversion load controller, and can handle 40 amps, giving you room for expansion in the future. For the load itself, I rewired some electric furnace heating elements to give me the resistance I need for the load I want.


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## justmyluk (Apr 28, 2005)

The two batteries are 75 amp hours each (150 total). I looked at the C40 xantrex and was holding out for a good price on ebay (looking for around $100 or less).
What would happen if your diversion load burned out while you were away. Would you run the risk of overchargeing your batteries? (this is one of my main concerns).


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## dennisjp (Mar 3, 2006)

This is something that I have studied on, but not finished studying. If the diversion load burns out, and you are away long enough, it will cook your batteries. Yes there is not only a fire hazard, but the batteries could expload.
Acid everywhere. 
But it would take a while to do so. 
200 watts at 30 volts is only 6.6 amps. You would need to keep two battery on a charger for atleast a couple days at that charge to do damage to them.
That is barely above a trickle charge. Most trickle chargers put out two amps, and with two batteries your max would be 3.3 amps each.
Instead of thinking about diversion loads, I would spend the cash on extra batteries. What's the use in producing electricity if you don't save it for use and waste it?????
Another thought is, winter is upon us. Hook your diversion load up to an electric base board heater somewhere you need a little extra heat. Maybe under the computor desk to warm your feet a bit. If you hook up a 240 heater, as a deversion load, it will produce heat. Not very much, but what ever watts goes through it will create heat. Watt per watt. And I assure you, it will never burn out a 240 volt heater. Even a little 24" one. You would never burn it out with a 200 watt charging system. That would last a life time on that set up. 
By the way, what did you pay for the system?
Good luck and God Blees.
Dennis
PS. 150 amp hours batteries at 50 percent charge, if you used them before leaveing, to get them down to that, would take your windmill about 11 hours to charge them back up to full charge, "IF" the wind mill was produceing at full charge, which very seldom happens. If you leave on a fairly calm day, You will be luckey to be getting one amp, but on the other hand feb. winds will get it on up there. 
Therefore, I would suggest as I said, a 240 volt heater for the diversion. You get free heat and no worries about it burning out.


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## justmyluk (Apr 28, 2005)

Thanks for the input, ya'll have given me a lot to think about.
So far the costs are as follows:

2 sets harbour freight solar panels (45 watt each) $358 (I had 20% off coup)
2 new deep cycle batteries (75 amp each) $ 50 (25$ each thru friend)
1 Juta charge controller ( 20 Amp) $ 57 (thru ebay)
2 Blocking diodes (40 amp) $ 16 (thru ebay)
1 wind generator (200 watt) $ 275(thru ebay)
1 Victor inverter (1200 watt) $ Free (christmas present)
Total cost so far $ 756

I had plenty of #6 #8 and # 10 wire to put it all together with. I still need to put up a small tower (about 25 feet) for the wind generator and fix up a charge controller for it. My total cost when finished should be around $1000.
Not to bad for a solar/wind project that should pump out free energy for many years to come. 

I'm having so much fun putting this thing together, who knows, I might just keep adding to the system and say good buy to my electric bills forever...


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

> Also Let's say I was not home and I was running a diversion load. What would happen if the diversion load burned out or the fuse blows to the load, what happens to the batteries? Will they continue to charge and over charge, causing a fire hazzard?


I may be way off here but by my understanding. If you are running a load diverter, your batteries would be safe. The diverter sends power only to the batteries when they need a charge. All other times it goes to the diverstion load. If the diversion load burns out, the load diverter should still protect the batteries. What isn't protected is the generator. With no-place for the power to go it might burn out the generator.

Your system sounds about the same as mine. The windgenny isn'ty finished as I haven't figured out a quick easy way to take it down for my extended absenses.


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## justmyluk (Apr 28, 2005)

Thanks for the input WyWhiteWolf. 
Anyone please chime in to set us straight on this. 

Here is my understanding of how it works:

The wind gen is hooked to the batteries as well as the charge (diversion)controller. 
When the batteries become completly charged, the diversion load kicks in taking the extra charge away from the batteries untill the batteries fall below a full charge.

If the diversion load burns out, the generator is still connected to the batteries and you have nothing using up the extra charge. With the generator still pumping charge into the batteries and no where else to go they will overcharge. 

Where is 12 Volt man when you need him...


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## dennisjp (Mar 3, 2006)

justmyluk said:


> Thanks for the input WyWhiteWolf.
> Anyone please chime in to set us straight on this.
> 
> Here is my understanding of how it works:
> ...


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## justmyluk (Apr 28, 2005)

Thanks Dennis, I think I'm getting a better understanding of this now. I will look for an old 220 dryer coil and rig something up. 

You're right , it is a shame to waste all that extra energy... come to think of it, a few more batteries would be nice...


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## dennisjp (Mar 3, 2006)

justmyluk said:


> Thanks Dennis, I think I'm getting a better understanding of this now. I will look for an old 220 dryer coil and rig something up.
> 
> You're right , it is a shame to waste all that extra energy... come to think of it, a few more batteries would be nice...


Give me a day or two and I will look throgh my catalogs and there is one of them that has some baseboard heaters really cheap. I think 17- 18 bucks for a 24" and best I can remember, they were about 27 for a 4 foot one. . Plus shipping of course, but you can't beat that. 
Even if you are not home, any extra juice would help keep the chill knocked of in the house. Could keep the pipes from freezing. 
Good luck with the project.
God Bless
Dennis


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## dennisjp (Mar 3, 2006)

Hey, I just looked at post number 5 better than I did earlier. You doing ok there. 
I have been thinking about building me a windmill useing an automobile alt. and think I can do so, but I have too many irons in the fire for the income already, if you know what I mean. Where in N.C. do yo live? I'm in Danville, Va. about a 1/4 mile from the N.C. line. 
Dennis


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

A wind turbine without it's own controller.....hmmm

junk car bats are a bad deal.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

Just to be fair, _anything_ can fail, even 220v heaters running on far less voltage. Wires break, connections fail, etc. So it is a valid concern.

Guess with the current low input, wouldn't just leaving a clock or 2 plugged into the system while gone draw it down enough that the risk of over-charge would be really low?

Think your best $$$ spent would be on making a much higher mast for the windmill. From what I hear.

--->Paul


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## patarini (Nov 19, 2004)

What wind charger did u get? I am thinking of adding one to y solar system here.


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## justmyluk (Apr 28, 2005)

dennisjp said:


> Hey, I just looked at post number 5 better than I did earlier. You doing ok there.
> I have been thinking about building me a windmill useing an automobile alt. and think I can do so, but I have too many irons in the fire for the income already, if you know what I mean. Where in N.C. do yo live? I'm in Danville, Va. about a 1/4 mile from the N.C. line.
> Dennis


I live just outside Charlotte in the small town of Indian Trail.


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## justmyluk (Apr 28, 2005)

patarini said:


> What wind charger did u get? I am thinking of adding one to y solar system here.


I bought it from a guy on ebay who makes up his own kits useing 30 volt ametek motors. I was very impressed with the construction and output of this small system. Here is a link to the one I bought:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...80028534472&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT&rd=1

I painted it John Deer green and yellow. I think it came out looking pretty good.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Hopefully this will clear things up

http://www.svhotwire.com/divert_loads.html



> Divert loads are typically needed with a wind generator to reduce the possibility of voltage spikes which could damage the charge controller. They also maintain an electrical load on the wind generator when the batteries are fully charged.
> 
> This prevents the blades from "freewheeling", thus reducing noise and vibration as well as wear on the wind generator.


Looks like to me if it's wired correctly the batteries are not in any danger. At least until the charge controller burnes out.

Wiring should be from the wind generator to the load diverter. Then to the charge controller (if seperate from the dirveter) then the batteries. Diversion load is also wired to the load diverter.


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## justmyluk (Apr 28, 2005)

Great Link White Wolf!
It seems like hot water or heater is the prefered load.


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## dennisjp (Mar 3, 2006)

justmyluk said:


> I bought it from a guy on ebay who makes up his own kits useing 30 volt ametek motors. I was very impressed with the construction and output of this small system. Here is a link to the one I bought:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...80028534472&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT&rd=1
> 
> I painted it John Deer green and yellow. I think it came out looking pretty good.


It says it is designed to run the wires down the center op the pipe. How does it keep the wires from being twisted so tight they break if the wind keeps changeing directions and it goes round and round for a while.
Does it have some sort of brushes and a collector plate. 
I was just wondering how that would work. 
I know I have set and watched a wind vane across the street go in circles for quite some time and hardly ever turn around and go back the other way. 
From the picture, it looks like tha wire just goes straight down the pipe. Does it have a stop where it will only go a 360 and then must go the other way?
Just asking, because with everything I have raed and it has been a lot on this subject, I have never seen the answer to that question. 

You are right, Rambler. Wires do break but they are something that on this small a wattage is not ampt to get hot enough to get brittle and it would take something to do so, and if a 220/240 volt heater went bad, it would simply be from old, old age. It sure wouldn't be from the wattage.
And if a clock will run for a year on a single AA size battery, I don't think it would 100 or probably a 1,000 of them pluged up would be of any help if his diversion load burned out. I am not sure what a clock uses, but it would be micro amps, meaning nil to none. 
Any electric heater that calls for 1,000 watts would last forever, with the max of 200 watts being delivered. 
A regular little box, 120 volt heater, and most of the coils are good for 1,500 watts, would be good enough. 
I should have never brought up 220/240 volts, but if I were really worried about this, that is what I would have used, until looking at this thread and stopping to think about it. 
I have a little bitty 1,500 watt heater at my feet as I speak, or rather punch keys, lol. I could unplug the fan, because you wouldn't want the fan motor to burn up from low voltage and and start a fire, but with it being in a metal box, 
and the generator only being able to put out 200 watts, that is only 13.34 % of what the coil is designed to handle. 
I have no idea what type of diversion load you are useing but, I assure you, even with a 120 volt/1500 watt heater, It will not burn out. 
It is nearing winter. I don't know anything about you nor your home, but I spend several hours a day at the computor. I keep an electric heater under the desk and as long as I am in that room, it keeps me more than warm. 
I am not saying that your excess electricity will do this, but atleast it isn't wasted. 
Any electricity that goes threw that heater, however small it may be, will make some heat. At your feet, under a computor is my choise. 
IMHO, God Bless
Dennis


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

dennisjp said:


> It says it is designed to run the wires down the center op the pipe. How does it keep the wires from being twisted so tight they break if the wind keeps changeing directions and it goes round and round for a while.
> Does it have some sort of brushes and a collector plate.
> I was just wondering how that would work.
> I know I have set and watched a wind vane across the street go in circles for quite some time and hardly ever turn around and go back the other way.
> ...



One solution:
http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind_tips.html
(near bottom of page)



> Pendant Cable--Our personal experience up here in Colorado is that it is much easier to simply use a length of flexible cable and a steel safety cable instead of slip rings. Use the highest quality stranded, flexible cable you can find and attach it in a loose loop from the wind generator power terminals to where your feed wire comes up the pole. Use a length of wire that allows about 3 or 4 wraps around the pole. Or, run the wire down the center of the tower pipe and let it twist inside. Our experience is that while the cord can eventually wind itself around the pole, it will also eventually unwind itself. Some of our models have flown for years with this kind of system and required no maintenance. With a properly designed wind turbine and furling system, you should hardly ever see the mill make a 360 degree yaw. We simple use a power plug and socket at the bottom of the tower and unplug it once or twice a year to untwist the wire. We've seen commercial turbines on 120 foot towers that successfully use the pendant cable system.


I've also read of using screen door springs to pull down on the wires from below to unwind the wiring when the wind quits blowing.

And I've read of using real heavy wire inside the pole where the wieght of it alone will put enough pull on the wind generator to unwind it.


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## justmyluk (Apr 28, 2005)

dennisjp said:


> It says it is designed to run the wires down the center op the pipe. How does it keep the wires from being twisted so tight they break if the wind keeps changeing directions and it goes round and round for a while.
> Does it have some sort of brushes and a collector plate.
> I was just wondering how that would work.
> I know I have set and watched a wind vane across the street go in circles for quite some time and hardly ever turn around and go back the other way.
> ...


Most everybody now a days are useing #6 welders cable. It is real flexable and acts like a rubber band when wound tight and then it unwinds itself. You are supposed to secure it at the top and then pull it tight, then secure it at the bottom. The say this stuff will never twist enough to break because of it's durability. 
I plan on placing a clamp about a foot down from the pivot and then running a loose spring to the pivot. This will allow the pivot to turn 360 or more and when the spring gets tight it will pull it back to zero and start all over. Just a precaution on my part.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

hello, novice here...

couldn't a person install mechanical stops on the pole to keep the generator and blade assembly from turning a complete 360? perhaps two bolts seperated by about 30 degrees and a little vertical differential with corresponding stops at two points on the rotating assembly. one stop at 0 dgrees and another at 380 or 390 degrees allowing full rotation but no further? it would work like a doorstop.

sorry if i missed something...


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## dennisjp (Mar 3, 2006)

My White Wolf.
Out of all the studying I have done, it was mostly for water wheels but the same concept as far as producing electricty goes hand in hand, I have always wondered how they kept the wire from twisting to much, and what they did to keep it from doing so.
Thanks, MWW
I will mark that site and raed it from top to bottom, when I have the time. 

Justmyluck, I welded for many years and am one to tell you, a welding cable can and will get caught on any and everything it posibly can, and still come out just fine. I would have to say, if you have two, # 6 stranded copper wires, running down the center and they are anchored good, they will unwind themselves as soon as they can. I had just never tought of that. Makes sense to me, and I think I would be willing to atleast give it a try. 
But at the same time, at the cost of that cable, I think I would try the brushes, copper and pvc pipe arrangement first. 

That's just me. I try to cut cost anywhere I can and that also makes sense to me. 
God Bless
Dennis


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

The stops would prevent your wind generator from following the wind, and likely greatly decrease your output. Would have to wait until the wind changed enough to blow it off a stop again.

As well certain rare but often enough wind blasts would put a lot of stress on those stops (and so the prop itself) in sudden wind changes.

Don't think I would like that.

I am surprised at the option of letting the wire curl, and it will uncurl itself in calm times. Wouldn't have thought of that.

--->Paul


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i understand the genset not following the wind...that is why i suggest over-travel. 390 degrees of spin and two stops seems like it should work. how about if it were coupled with a tail section that was double and set at a 30 degree differential, one tail and another 30 degrees out from it?

never mind me, i like to free form my thoughts, lol. :shrug:


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

MELOC- unfortunately your free and good thoughts are just asking for trouble down the line.
Yes the AWP did start out with out slip rings--and twist up the wire. But due to the demand finally put in a slip ring assenbly..........far better.
Any unit that twists up wires is trouble waiting to happen ---down the road.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Jim are these a sort of slip ring/carbon brush assembly so the electrical contact is maintained or is there some other kind of contactor? I've heard of the idea but the mechanicals are fuzzy.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Slip ring\ carbon brushes to maintain constant contact

......Yes

Its reasonably simple, but must be built hefty enough to last for years.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Jim-mi said:


> ....Any unit that twists up wires is trouble waiting to happen ---down the road.


Maybe, I plan on using a heavy duty extension cord for mine. I don't see how it would wear any worse than extension cords I abused daily in the shop and that will give me a plug at both ends. Also the weak link I believe is the ametek motor. I expect the bushings to last only 1 to 2 years so it will need maintance long before the wiring and can check everything over good then.


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## justmyluk (Apr 28, 2005)

wy_white_wolf said:


> Maybe, I plan on using a heavy duty extension cord for mine. I don't see how it would wear any worse than extension cords I abused daily in the shop and that will give me a plug at both ends. Also the weak link I believe is the ametek motor. I expect the bushings to last only 1 to 2 years so it will need maintance long before the wiring and can check everything over good then.


Good choice WhiteWolf, a lot of small wind generator owners are useing heavy duty drop cords and they say they work just as well as the welding cable. If you secure at the top and pull it tight before securing it at the bottom, it won't have the slack to knot up.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

MELOC said:


> i understand the genset not following the wind...that is why i suggest over-travel. 390 degrees of spin and two stops seems like it should work. how about if it were coupled with a tail section that was double and set at a 30 degree differential, one tail and another 30 degrees out from it?
> 
> never mind me, i like to free form my thoughts, lol. :shrug:


I enjoy following different thoughts - leads to places I wouldn't have thought of. 

So, I don't understand. If you have something that spins 360 degrees, how can you have 2 stops, and still allow 390 degrees of rotation? How do the stops work? At best you could have 359 degrees of travel with one stop.....

Even so, when the windmill hits a stop & the wind continues to rotate off in that direction, the 390 degrees still would be at a stop. As long as there is one stop, it's going to stop....


If you have 2 tails 30 degrees from each other, would not the windmill average it out to 15 degrees offset, and just add drag to the wind leaving the mill, thus adding turbulence & a tiny bit less production?

I'm just trying to understand, can't get it in my head right. 

--->Paul


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

i was thinking one could have a double tail with the tail seperated by 30 degrees but parallel to what would be the normal axis or normal single tail (both fins would be perpendicular to the prop). or maybe you could look at it as two tail fins seperated by a few feet, but it is relative to the size of the unit...so i said 30 degrees but parallel to each other and perpendicular to the blades.

for the stop, i was thinking you could have two stops seperated by 30 degrees. imagine two "L" shaped brackets hanging down. one is shorter than the other and sits in close to the pole. lets say you used bolts on the pole for the brackets to come to rest against. one bolt would be longer than the other one to meet with the "L" bracket that sticks out further. that should allow more than 360 degrees of rotation but not a complete spin. hopefully, having two tail fins seperated off center from the prop would allow the wind to shift the genset as it needs to go when the wind changes.

did that make any sense?


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

ok...that won't work, lol. it is still 360 degrees no matter how complicated you make it.  

hey...i tried. :shrug:


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

MELOC said:


> ok...that won't work, lol. it is still 360 degrees no matter how complicated you make it.
> 
> hey...i tried. :shrug:


Yup.  Spinning once around, you will hit the stop. I think I know what you were trying to do with the 2 L brackets & studs. But - it's going to hit at 359 degrees or whatever. 

I suppose a series of cams...... 

--->Paul


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## justmyluk (Apr 28, 2005)

Why make things more complicated then they need to be... Placing about a foot long spring (foot long unstreched) verticle down the front or back side of the pole and attached to the wind generator should do the trick. Once the wind turns the tail enough times it will become tight and when the wind dies down it should unwind. When I get mine up I will let you know how it works. I still need to get my diversion controller and my diversion load and I should be ready to fly.

Please keep your ideas coming, I think it's giving us all something to think about...


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

I may have mentioned this before but I can't find the post now...

I am on a solar system right now and would like to look into adding wind generation. I think I can still use my existing inverter (7500w) without upgrading and already have a battery bank and gennie (but would love to upgrade both of those, pending budget...). Where do I begin? Help! (Feel free to PM me if that's easier.)


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