# A herd of young street bums



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

I know Maine is behind the times (thank God for the most part!) but the past 2 times I've shopped at a certain "plaza" in Waterville I've witnessed young bums (16-29yo) shoplifting and hanging out begging and pan handing (prolly selling sex and drugs too) outside of Family Dollar and Savealot. I really am annoyed by the whole deal... I make it a point to look the dirtbags in their stoned eyes and give them my best "you are a disgrace" motherly look. This past time 4 of them tried a herding technique with DD and I and when I felt pursued I stopped and said "Back off!" to some rather shocked guy who complied...we were not bothered when we left the store. 
I should think the store owners would ask the LEO to drive by now and then and move these ne'er-do-wells along but....


----------



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

You're playing with fire confronting them.... Sounds like they don't have anything to lose and could appreciate three hots and a cot.. .


----------



## Farmer Willy (Aug 7, 2005)

I would tell them the pickings are better over in Jerusalem's Lot. Let 'em take their chances.


----------



## backwoods (Sep 12, 2004)

Call the police yourself, tell them there are some suspicious drugged looking characters loitering in the lot, and they make you feel uneasy even getting into your car. I'd also complain to the store management, or higher if necessary, to a regional manager. I think you did the right thing by telling them to back off! They're looking for a "victim" and an easy one at that. Easy victims don't stand and face them and order them to back off. Easy victims don't make eye contact with them, they continue to try to avoid them, and that's the person they are going to follow out into the lot. I wouldn't hesitate to call LEO on them next time, but you don't want it to be obvious to them, that you did.


----------



## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

The stores around here do chase them off before they start bothering people.


----------



## pamda (Oct 14, 2004)

I feel like I have gone back to the 'hood every time I shop family Dollar Is it something they do to make their stores so town crummy? And even though people say do not confront , do, it is the idea they will not be stood up to that allows this to continue. Also, tell the manager, tell them if they do not put a stop to it you will contact the head office. Call the cops, make a stink. It's the only way to get things done.


----------



## ovsfarm (Jan 14, 2003)

I am naive about some things. What is "herding" and why do they do it?


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Best conversation I've had in weeks was with a homeless guy who was panhandling on a street corner in town the other day. 

Guy's name was Jerry and he followed a woman down to Austin and then she ditched him. Now he just wants to go back home. He can live on $2 a day and so most of his money that he's getting from panhandling is going into his pocket for the long hitchhike back home to Virginia. A fascinating character and we shared many traits in common, such as the fact that neither of us really like "working for the man" and that we both think living off the land is the way to freedom.

I sat there for a half hour and chatted with Jerry. He assured me that, yes, he knows the Lord and he didn't feel like he was being "punished" by being broke and having to panhandle, but rather that it was just a chapter in his life that had recently opened and he expected to close.

I felt very uplifted from my time spent with Jerry. Maybe you're missing out not taking a moment to have a chat with these kids.


----------



## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

I think you should carry pepper spray. Have it in hand and be ready to use it if they are near.


----------



## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Ernie said:


> Best conversation I've had in weeks was with a homeless guy who was panhandling on a street corner in town the other day.
> 
> Guy's name was Jerry and he followed a woman down to Austin and then she ditched him. Now he just wants to go back home. He can live on $2 a day and so most of his money that he's getting from panhandling is going into his pocket for the long hitchhike back home to Virginia. A fascinating character and we shared many traits in common, such as the fact that neither of us really like "working for the man" and that we both think living off the land is the way to freedom.
> 
> ...


You are a man; you have not, I assume, ever danced this earth as a woman. I have sometimes stepped outside of my gender; it rarely ended well. The OP and her daughter were uncomfortable; suggesting that they chat these kids up isn't really a good idea.


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

one panhandler on a street corner that you approach, or are approached without brashness; is totally different than a group of teens with a closing in on a subject type of 'herding'.

Not even the same thing. 
Now if one teen was asking for help, and in a polite way - that would be an opportunity for a conversation.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Well, I guess we all have to do what we're going to do, but I'd hate to pepper spray someone who just needed some comforting words and a helping hand instead.

People tend to respond to fear with aggression. They respond to friendliness with friendliness. They respond to compassion with grace.

At least that's been my experience in things. 

With the way the economic situation is turning, we should probably get used to seeing more people hanging out in places looking for handouts.


----------



## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

I'd be afraid to carry pepper spray or a weapon; I'm sure I'd shoot myself. But for the OP to be afraid or uncomfortable is just part of being female IMO. One on one I have assisted people--not financially but physically--all of my life--my late mother was legally blind so I have some understanding. Years ago I was "herded" in Tijuana--in broad daylight--I was also groped. I stay away from groups of young men and have for over 35 years.


----------



## wottahuzzee (Jul 7, 2006)

I don't call it "herding." I call it "packing up" like dogs or wolves would do.


----------



## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Ernie said:


> Best conversation I've had in weeks was with a homeless guy who was panhandling on a street corner in town the other day.
> 
> Guy's name was Jerry and he followed a woman down to Austin and then she ditched him. Now he just wants to go back home. He can live on $2 a day and so most of his money that he's getting from panhandling is going into his pocket for the long hitchhike back home to Virginia. A fascinating character and we shared many traits in common, such as the fact that neither of us really like "working for the man" and that we both think living off the land is the way to freedom.
> 
> ...


They are really good con artists too...which you found out.

I won't give bums or any pan handler the time of the day, hassle me and all bets are off.


----------



## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

By herding I think the OP meant that the boys were trying to "herd" them away from the store. Move the girls to where the boys wanted them to be. Like herding cattle......


----------



## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

In Madison WI they passed a pan handling ordinance , it states how far from a businesses door they can pan handle , and such , well it got kind of confusing so on State street they just painted squares on the side walk were pan handling is ok if they leave the square they are in violation.
I don't spend much time down there but a few times a year , and it seems to have reduced pan handling to those locations that you can fairly easily walk past.


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

Ernie --I agree not all books can be judged by their covers....but I watched one of the kids demand a smoke from an old guy walking by....genuine fear in the old guy and he gave them the whole pack...
I'd rather be more proactive than be forced into a reactive place...and I don't always carry pepper spray or a gun or cell phone so my brain/gut was my only resource at the time...
Prolly a 100 different approaches to use in the situation...just sharing what I chose to do in the moment...'cause it might be coming to a place near you.


----------



## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

I remember one time in a mall when a group of young males decided to try to intimidate me! :heh: I was strolling down the aisle when they purposely grouped together and walked toward me. (I was in an electric scooter). I just kept going at my normal pace. At the last moment they parted like the Red Sea! :teehee:

I find that when encountering a bully or bullies, assertiveness works wonders.


----------



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

In this area "packs" of kids are pushing people into corners and beating them within inches of their life.. for fun.. not to steal from them. It's become a big problem in this area..

They are also walking into stores in large groups and cleaning the place out... Just recently we've had 5 very high end jewelry stores, such as Cartier, cleaned out by groups wielding hammers and smashing and grabbing.. 

I'm not kidding when I say you're playing with fire.... A group of kids can easily overwhelm you... Some get off on the thrill of being confronted then showing they don't fear you. People that age are fearless and bulletproof.. at least in their minds...


----------



## Raymond James (Apr 15, 2013)

What Backwoods said X 2.

If you see something that looks wrong/illegal call LE. 

When walking in a public place head up, scan the area, be aware of surroundings. I recently visited south Chicago and had several pan handler / hang out on the street types take one look at me and the wife and vacate the area they assume we are or were LE.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

mpillow said:


> Ernie --I agree not all books can be judged by their covers....but I watched one of the kids demand a smoke from an old guy walking by....genuine fear in the old guy and he gave them the whole pack...
> I'd rather be more proactive than be forced into a reactive place...and I don't always carry pepper spray or a gun or cell phone so my brain/gut was my only resource at the time...
> Prolly a 100 different approaches to use in the situation...just sharing what I chose to do in the moment...'cause it might be coming to a place near you.


Demanding anything, including a cigarette is no-deal, in my book. You left that part out of your story. 

I would have moved them along if I had to go get a buddy or two to help me do it. 

Nobody in need, if I can help them, is going to go hungry or without shelter. But people who get demanding about it need to be moved out of the neighborhood by any means necessary.


----------



## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

katydidagain said:


> I'd be afraid to carry pepper spray or a weapon; I'm sure I'd shoot myself.


There are courses you can take to become confident with a weapon or even without a weapon.
Weapons, be the guns or pepper spray, don't shoot people all by themselves.


----------



## backwoods (Sep 12, 2004)

Speaking as a lady, especially to the ladies here... for heaven's sake, LISTEN to that little voice in your head, or when the "hairs" on the back of your neck "stand up" and something seems wrong, makes you uncomfortable, or... you think why is that person still behind me...LISTEN!!! That is your body telling you you're in danger! That you may be being "preyed" upon or stalked like a hungry animal stalks its prey. Be aware of your surroundings, scan the area and make eye contact with the person, if possible. Let them know, that YOU know, that they are there. See who else is around, and are they likely to help you, or the other person who makes you uneasy? Is it some of his buddies? I've made a point to speak directly to a person who made me really uncomfortable in a parking lot before. Why? Because they didn't expect it, and it distracted them long enough for me to get my door unlocked & jump inside while they were looking for what I had pointed at in the opposite direction. "OMG, LOOK AT THAT!" and sure enough, he turned away from me and looked. By the time he turned back I was safely locked in my car and roaring out of the parking space. Maybe he was harmless, but I kinda doubt it. Why else would he cuss me & kick at my car as I drove off? Just pay attention to what's going on around you. I've even crammed my little kids into the car without putting in the carseats because I didn't feel comfortable turning my back to the parking lot "boys" who were hanging around. Drove a short but safer distance from them, then buckled the littles in. I've read where several women had been raped while buckling their toddlers into a car seat! You have to be "on guard" at all times now, sad to say.


----------



## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

mnn2501 said:


> There are courses you can take to become confident with a weapon or even without a weapon.
> Weapons, be the guns or pepper spray, don't shoot people all by themselves.


I'm aware of courses; I choose not be armed. backwoods' post above is how I deal and have dealt with potentially dangerous situations; it's worked for 59 years.


----------



## Ardie/WI (May 10, 2002)

backwoods said:


> Speaking as a lady, especially to the ladies here... for heaven's sake, LISTEN to that little voice in your head, or when the "hairs" on the back of your neck "stand up" and something seems wrong, makes you uncomfortable, or... you think why is that person still behind me...LISTEN!!! That is your body telling you you're in danger! That you may be being "preyed" upon or stalked like a hungry animal stalks its prey. Be aware of your surroundings, scan the area and make eye contact with the person, if possible. Let them know, that YOU know, that they are there. See who else is around, and are they likely to help you, or the other person who makes you uneasy? Is it some of his buddies? I've made a point to speak directly to a person who made me really uncomfortable in a parking lot before. Why? Because they didn't expect it, and it distracted them long enough for me to get my door unlocked & jump inside while they were looking for what I had pointed at in the opposite direction. "OMG, LOOK AT THAT!" and sure enough, he turned away from me and looked. By the time he turned back I was safely locked in my car and roaring out of the parking space. Maybe he was harmless, but I kinda doubt it. Why else would he cuss me & kick at my car as I drove off? Just pay attention to what's going on around you. I've even crammed my little kids into the car without putting in the carseats because I didn't feel comfortable turning my back to the parking lot "boys" who were hanging around. Drove a short but safer distance from them, then buckled the littles in. I've read where several women had been raped while buckling their toddlers into a car seat! You have to be "on guard" at all times now, sad to say.


I can't agree more! Watch your surroundings!

I don't keep a purse with me in my electric scooter for that reason! Of course, I have a crabby :teehee: looking, big sized DH with me most of time time!

Once, we weren't together in this huge store in the city. I became aware of a man behind me so I moved on. Where I went, he went. I went to the feminine products, thinking to lose him. Not! So, I meandered casually to the service desk, turned sharply and yelled, asking why he was following me. He ran out the door like his pants were on fire!

I always told my DD that if she was somewhere and it didn't feel right, it wasn't right and to get the heck out of there!


----------



## backwoods (Sep 12, 2004)

Ernie said:


> Demanding anything, including a cigarette is no-deal, in my book. You left that part out of your story.
> 
> I would have moved them along if I had to go get a buddy or two to help me do it.
> 
> *Nobody in need, if I can help them, is going to go hungry or without shelter*. But people who get demanding about it need to be moved out of the neighborhood by any means necessary.


Couldn't agree with you more, Ernie. It's "usually" pretty easy to discern the difference between those truly needing help, and those looking to prey upon someone. One exception being, true con artists who are just out to "sucker" people out of some quick cash, refuse to do any kind of work when it's offered, and make fun of people who show kindness to them. Gotta be a special place for them to go, one day...


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

backwoods said:


> Couldn't agree with you more, Ernie. It's "usually" pretty easy to discern the difference between those truly needing help, and those looking to prey upon someone. One exception being, true con artists who are just out to "sucker" people out of some quick cash, refuse to do any kind of work when it's offered, and make fun of people who show kindness to them. Gotta be a special place for them to go, one day...


Heh. I worry less about the guy on the corner suckering me out of a couple of bucks and some spare change than I do about the entire corporate system designed to sucker us all out of everything we have. 

Occasionally I get suckered. I bought this one guy a sandwich in Cleveland because all I had was a credit card and no money. He was panhandling outside of a sandwich shop I was going into so I ordered two and brought him out one. He stuck it quickly in his backpack so nobody else would see it and thus impact his panhandling with the "hungry, please help" sign.

Still, Christ commands me to feed the hungry. If I occasionally get fooled in the doing of good, then shame on them ... not shame on me.


----------



## willbuck1 (Apr 4, 2010)

Hey Ernie long time no see. I know of too many panhandlers that spin a good line and consider it a good career path. I will feed the hungry but would never give them cash.


----------



## pamda (Oct 14, 2004)

There is a family pan-handling here who have an old but still useable little motor home. They are a man, woman, older teen and a kid about 7. I have watched them fro a while. Mom is grossly over weight, dad looks like a meth head, teen is just plan scary looking ( no tats, ok hair but his eyes are scary, kwim?). Little boy has behavior issues like crazy. I was going to give them what money I had one day, but, mom and kid were in dollar store and I caught a scene from a horror story. Kid was demanding all kinds of stuff mom was cursing him out he hit her she yelled etc. I walked pasted them and she smelled like cigarettes so bad it hurt. I am sorry but if you can afford to smoke and eat all the junk food she bought I will keep my cash.


----------



## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

I get hit up every time I go to Jack in the Box or McD's. It is making me nuts. Just a word of caution...my drug addicted brother is a very experienced sociopath. He will charm you with his knowledge of the bible and get you to give him your family and your home REALLY so please do not be tricked by this population of people. My brother has been conning judges for years and years.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Heh. I find it somewhat amusing that y'all think I neither know how to spot a conman or to protect myself against one. 

Very few people here know my background or my family history, but let's just say I'm not as naÃ¯ve as it might sound on these topics.

I give what I can afford to give. Nothing is mine anyway ... I simply steward it for the Lord. Occasionally I get screwed out of this or that small thing, but in general I think the people had good intentions but their lack of character kicked in. The guy you give a $5 to on the street may really mean to buy himself something to eat and to go looking for a job tomorrow, but it may be very difficult in his life to walk past that liquor store with a $5 in his hand. Maybe if enough people press a $5 into his hand then he'll learn the discipline he needs to avoid that. I can spare $5 to give him a chance.

I will not, _absolutely will not_, go through my life so fearful of being taken advantage of that I won't reach out to my fellow humans on this planet and try to do God's will. If I fall on my face in the doing of it, then I take no harm from it. There are many, many blessings I receive from it.


----------



## FunnyRiverFarm (May 25, 2010)

Ernie said:


> Heh. I find it somewhat amusing that y'all think I neither know how to spot a conman or to protect myself against one.
> 
> Very few people here know my background or my family history, but let's just say I'm not as naÃ¯ve as it might sound on these topics.
> 
> ...


The thread isn't about anyone's 'fear of being taken advantage of'...it is about fear of being physically attacked by aggressive people...not about people asking for what you are willing to GIVE, but people using intimidation to TAKE what you have.


----------



## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

This thread was also started by a woman. One who is not accustomed to being intimidated in her normal shopping environment.
Men have really different experiences on this topic generally.


----------



## FunnyRiverFarm (May 25, 2010)

I understand what the OP is saying about groups of young people (mostly male) that are not for the right thing. I've seen it and experienced it...and most of the time it is not about any particular 'need'...it is about power and control. They single a person out--usually women and elderly people--and 'herd' him/her to separate them from anyone that may be able to help, then surround and verbally or physically intimidate until they get what they want...which sometimes is to just beat or rape someone.


----------



## backwoods (Sep 12, 2004)

...Especially when accompanied by a young, attractive teenage daughter. I've had grown men leer at her so noticeably that I placed myself between him and her and GLARED back at THEM. I finally asked a Mexican man at the public library what he was staring at, did he have a problem? He acted surprised and said, no. I said then you'd better go stare at someone else or you will have. He left. And before you go there, my dd dresses quite modestly. NO body parts exposed, ever, and no skin tight clothing. She's 14!!! 

Ernie, I'm sorry if you thought I was directing my comments AT you. I seriously wasn't. I've been duped a few times myself trying to help people I thought were in need. They were actually better off than me, they were just "poor-mouthing" to get people to feel sorry for them & GIVE them stuff they didn't even need. My point was to be discerning in the difference of someone who needs help, and in someone asking, but in an intimidating way, to demand something from you. And how the first should be helped, if you are able, and the second should ring your alarm bells.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

backwoods said:


> ...Especially when accompanied by a young, attractive teenage daughter. I've had grown men leer at her so noticeably that I placed myself between him and her and GLARED back at THEM. I finally asked a Mexican man at the public library what he was staring at, did he have a problem? He acted surprised and said, no. I said then you'd better go stare at someone else or you will have. He left. And before you go there, my dd dresses quite modestly. NO body parts exposed, ever, and no skin tight clothing. She's 14!!!
> 
> Ernie, I'm sorry if you thought I was directing my comments AT you. I seriously wasn't. I've been duped a few times myself trying to help people I thought were in need. They were actually better off than me, they were just "poor-mouthing" to get people to feel sorry for them & GIVE them stuff they didn't even need. My point was to be discerning in the difference of someone who needs help, and in someone asking, but in an intimidating way, to demand something from you. And how the first should be helped, if you are able, and the second should ring your alarm bells.


Many men have totally lost custody of their eyes these days. I understand exactly what you're talking about there. Luckily my daughter is only 2 so I haven't yet had to gouge out any eyeballs.

Don't apologize. I'm not upset in any way. I'm just slightly confused by the thread. 

If someone demands, well, depending upon the situation, I will deal with it accordingly. I have a sympathy for those who take money in need but then squander it. Often that's just part of the problem that put them in the situation in the first place.

And there are some who just creep you out, and I tend to respect those gut feelings. But in general I have an obligation to help the needy. Unfortunately my resources are very thin these days and so I'm really only able to help those in need who are in my more direct acquaintance.


----------



## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

mpillow said:


> I should think the store owners would ask the LEO to drive by now and then and move these ne'er-do-wells along but....


Call the store owners and tell them that. And refuse to shop there until it is done.


----------



## ralph perrello (Mar 8, 2013)

I worked hard for 50 years. I give advice to panhandlers. GET A JOB!
There are many jobs going begging even through the recession. I do not want to hear there are no jobs. Clean up, get a haircut and shave and find a job. I am not real nice either while giving my advice.


----------



## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

ralph perrello said:


> I worked hard for 50 years. I give advice to panhandlers. GET A JOB!
> There are many jobs going begging even through the recession. I do not want to hear there are no jobs. Clean up, get a haircut and shave and find a job. I am not real nice either while giving my advice.


I agree!

Another pet peave of mine are fundraisers where people stand at intersections with signs begging for money for baseball or other sports, I don't mind donating money to teams, but don't do it in the road.


----------



## MichaelZ (May 21, 2013)

I think you should each carry the pepper spray. I make my 14-yr old daughter take it along whenever she goes on a bike ride. In fact, I think I will get her a second small pepper spray as a backup too. If she were ever abducted and placed in a vehicle, spraying inside the vehicle could save her. I tell her she should aim for the eyes. A good dose of this stuff and nobody is going anywhere, and if it was sprayed in the eyes the attacker would be out of commission for a good while. I have accidentally sprayed this in the house - a little goes a long way! If this were sprayed inside a car, nobody will be driving that car for a long time.

With respect to the intimidating people, best to travel in pairs rather than alone. Don't look them in the eyes but don't show fear either. Casually avoid. And if this does not work, call your police. I do some street ministry in similar areas and we are advised to always go out in groups of 2 or more.


----------



## Usingmyrights (Jan 10, 2011)

Spray isn't a guarantee. Some people arent affected by it and anyone can fight through it. It's part of getting certified by the state LE commission down here. Usually you have to run through a course after being sprayed. It hurts, it does effect your ability to function and I'd rather be tased than sprayed again. However, it won't stop anyone. While a minor wouldn't be able to, a firearm with the training to use it, is the best option. As far as calling LE jus remember that when seconds count the police are just minutes away.


----------



## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Heh. I worry less about the guy on the corner suckering me out of a couple of bucks and some spare change than I do about the entire corporate system designed to sucker us all out of everything we have.
> 
> Occasionally I get suckered. I bought this one guy a sandwich in Cleveland because all I had was a credit card and no money. He was panhandling outside of a sandwich shop I was going into so I ordered two and brought him out one. He stuck it quickly in his backpack so nobody else would see it and thus impact his panhandling with the "hungry, please help" sign.
> 
> Still, Christ commands me to feed the hungry. If I occasionally get fooled in the doing of good, then shame on them ... not shame on me.


There was a guy with a "hungry, will work for food" sign outside Walmart a year or so ago. I did my grocery shopping and bought him a half dozen items of non-perishable, easily eaten food, probably $10 worth. As I was leaving the parking lot, I got out of the car and walked over to him with the bag. He glanced at it, gave me a disgusted glance and told me to put it under the nearby bush "with all the rest". There were half a dozen bags of donated food under that bush. As I was leaving, he said "what I really want is money". Yeah, bingo. Just a panhandler looking for booze/drug money. I told him no and left.

I was angry, but it hasn't stopped me from doing it a couple of other times. I won't give cash to anyone, but I will buy them food. Like Ernie said, if they're con men the shame is on them.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Mom_of_Four said:


> There was a guy with a "hungry, will work for food" sign outside Walmart a year or so ago. I did my grocery shopping and bought him a half dozen items of non-perishable, easily eaten food, probably $10 worth. As I was leaving the parking lot, I got out of the car and walked over to him with the bag. He glanced at it, gave me a disgusted glance and told me to put it under the nearby bush "with all the rest". There were half a dozen bags of donated food under that bush. As I was leaving, he said "what I really want is money". Yeah, bingo. Just a panhandler looking for booze/drug money. I told him no and left.
> 
> I was angry, but it hasn't stopped me from doing it a couple of other times. I won't give cash to anyone, but I will buy them food. Like Ernie said, if they're con men the shame is on them.


His sign should have read "will work for money" if he wanted money. I'm ok with that. 

Many homeless people do not want food but rather cash, and it doesn't always mean they're scamming you. Food for most homeless people is very easy to find. There's a whole bunch of places where you can go to get free food, some restaurants will feed them for free, and if none of that is available then there's always dumpster diving. 

You want to please a homeless person then give them a bottle of water and a couple of bucks. Something clean to drink that you can carry with you is much more of a blessing and the cash can help them get out of their current situation. If you give them $10 worth of food then it feeds them, but it keeps them in their current life. If you give them $10 then they can put it aside to find a way out of their current situation. They can't carry that $10 worth of food somewhere else and buy a bus ticket back home with it.


----------



## pamda (Oct 14, 2004)

There was a rumor here that the Rescue Mission was helping the men living there by driving them to places to pan handle. I poo poo'd the idea for a long time until I was out really early one day and saw it for myself. A van with the missions sign on it and a worker I know. Dropping guys (and a couple women ) off by a local store. I have also seen the same sign used by several different people as they are working in teams. I do not mind helping a person out but not if they are doing it instead of looking for work or making it a life style. We had one bunch who got a wheel chair and were claiming war vet status..except they would get up, and go off and someone else would take the chair and sign. These people I called the cops on. They were from one state over and the chair was stolen.


----------



## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Ernie said:


> His sign should have read "will work for money"


I'm just guessing, maybe unfairly, but I'm willing to bet if I told him I needed someone to come help me stretch the barbed wire and muck out the chicken house and weed the garden for pay I would have gotten that same disgusted look. 

Many years ago a man came into the fast food restaurant where I worked. He said he wanted work, and I offered him an application. He said no, he wanted an odd job or two to make some cash because he was hungry. I offered him the "expired" burgers we couldn't sell (we ate them, they weren't old or spoiled, just too old to sell), but no he needed cash.

I asked the manager, who said he could weed the parking lot, where grass was coming up in the cracks, and she'd pay him $5/hr (I was making $3.50/hr) and he agreed. I look outside a few minutes later and saw him walking down the road, evidentally looking for an easier way to make a buck. :grumble:

So I have a healthy mistrust of people who want to "work for money"


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

One of the boys was using a crutch....he had tats and piercings as did one of the other kids....the girl was off on her own little trip sitting on the curb....another young boy looked new to the "crowd"....the house for little wanderers is just up the street...
I think I will call the store and let the manager know how I feel.

I'm sure none would want to shovel out goat poo or weed the garden or help butcher animals but I don't have enough time for all my chores, let alone time to sort thru their BS. I just want to go in and out as quickly and safely as possible so I have my time and energy to spend on my own stuff.

Call me selfish...if you want.:shrug:


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Mom_of_Four said:


> I'm just guessing, maybe unfairly, but I'm willing to bet if I told him I needed someone to come help me stretch the barbed wire and muck out the chicken house and weed the garden for pay I would have gotten that same disgusted look.
> 
> Many years ago a man came into the fast food restaurant where I worked. He said he wanted work, and I offered him an application. He said no, he wanted an odd job or two to make some cash because he was hungry. I offered him the "expired" burgers we couldn't sell (we ate them, they weren't old or spoiled, just too old to sell), but no he needed cash.
> 
> ...


Well, that's the problem. The few bad apples spoil the whole barrel for everyone. There are people out there who would do the work and do it well, but how do you sort them out? I don't have the answer for that one.

But the problem is that almost all employment in America is on a contract basis. You come in, fill out an application, pee in a cup, and then they'll pay you minimum wage to work the hours THEY want you to work, for as long as they want you to work and they'll fire you on the spot when they're done with you.

But what if you don't need permanent employment? What if you're $20 shy of your week's living expenses and just want to do some ad hoc work? Do you call yourself a "sidewalk contractor" and tell them you'll sweep their parking lot for $20? Pick up trash in the ditch for $10? 

There's absolutely no allowances in America for people who live non-traditionally. Get a job, fill out your proper tax forms, pay into social security, and contribute to the GDP. Anything less than ABSOLUTELY OBEDIENCE and FULL COMMITMENT from the employee is unacceptable. 

We as homesteaders ought to be a little more sympathetic to that plight. The world looks down on us, but hey, we've got homeless and unemployed people to look down on so it's ok?

I guess I was lucky early on in my life. I found a mentor who taught me that while "jobs may be scarce, work is always plentiful". If you showed up somewhere with a smile and were ready to work for some money, people would always pay you. Sometimes the employees of various places would pay me to do the really unpleasant parts of their job so they didn't have to. I'd go scrub the dumpster out while they sat on the curb and smoked. 

Somewhere along the line I forgot that. I got a job, got paid, filled out my tax forms, paid into social security, and became an upright citizen.

It's only this last year that I remember how the old Ernie got by and I've got a heckuva lot of sympathy for the outsiders on the fringes of polite society now.


----------



## K.B. (Sep 7, 2012)

MichaelZ said:


> I think you should each carry the pepper spray. I make my 14-yr old daughter take it along whenever she goes on a bike ride. In fact, I think I will get her a second small pepper spray as a backup too. If she were ever abducted and placed in a vehicle, spraying inside the vehicle could save her. I tell her she should aim for the eyes. A good dose of this stuff and nobody is going anywhere, and if it was sprayed in the eyes the attacker would be out of commission for a good while. I have accidentally sprayed this in the house - a little goes a long way! If this were sprayed inside a car, nobody will be driving that car for a long time.


spraying pepper spray or other "weapons" inside a vehicle is not something I would recommend to anyone who was still inside that vehicle.

spray, stun guns, etc... are no substitute for solid training in matters of self-defense. it is worth leaning how to defend yourself and others (armed and unarmed techniques).


----------



## Slatewiper (Nov 22, 2012)

Ernie said:


> Best conversation I've had in weeks was with a homeless guy who was panhandling on a street corner in town the other day.
> 
> Guy's name was Jerry and he followed a woman down to Austin and then she ditched him. Now he just wants to go back home. He can live on $2 a day and so most of his money that he's getting from panhandling is going into his pocket for the long hitchhike back home to Virginia. A fascinating character and we shared many traits in common, such as the fact that neither of us really like "working for the man" and that we both think living off the land is the way to freedom.
> 
> ...



Great way to get yourself killed in the process.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Slatewiper said:


> Great way to get yourself killed in the process.


I ain't dead yet. 

Besides, it'll likely be the government that eventually kills me, not some bored kids outside of a dollar store.


----------



## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

I think gender really determines, for the most part, how one perceives a situation. I tend to be a little too nonchalant as I've been told by several men but there are times I do get a bad feeling; when that happens I move away as quickly as possible.


----------



## Jupiter (Dec 30, 2012)

I got stopped going in Walmart a few months ago by some young teens raising money for veterans. I will happily donate to vets but I know enough that I can donate personally. Something just wasn't right about this group. Really in your face, follow you to your car type...wanted to know why I wouldn't give. As the wife of a disabled vet I REALLY resented that.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Proper panhandlers never group up. It cuts into their money supply too much. Same reason why you rarely see hitchhikers together.

How did Ernie learn so much about panhandling? I talk to people. One of my favorite "tactics" is to approach a homeless person or panhandler and tell them that "I was about to eat lunch over there but I really don't like to eat alone. Would you eat lunch with me if I bought for both of us? We could eat in there or out here, whichever you'd like."

Most of the time people take me up on it and I've never spent a more interesting 30 minutes or so. All men love to talk about their trade and demonstrate how good at it they are, and a panhandler is no different.

I got stopped by two youngish panhandlers once on a public city street and they DEMANDED money. They didn't ask. They just said, "Give us some money, man."

I asked, "Do you have a gun? A knife? Show it to me!" They looked at each other uncomfortably. I reached for my belt and said, "I do. Want to see it?" They took off.

That's NOT panhandling. That's mugging people. And they weren't even properly equipped to do it.


----------



## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Last time I was in Chicago, there was a hippy guy with long dreads sitting there playing some super mean harmonica.. This guy was crazy good... He had a sign out saying "Please donate for beer... I listened a while, and gave him a couple bucks... Great entertainment, and the guy was honest what he wanted money for... How can you resist? I got no problem buying a guy a beer...


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

simi-steading said:


> Last time I was in Chicago, there was a hippy guy with long dreads sitting there playing some super mean harmonica.. This guy was crazy good... He had a sign out saying "Please donate for beer... I listened a while, and gave him a couple bucks... Great entertainment, and the guy was honest what he wanted money for... How can you resist? I got no problem buying a guy a beer...


That's not panhandling either. It's "street busking", which is a time-honored profession.

In the days before canned music, tavern owners and shopkeepers would often try to entice men like that to sit in front of their shops to provide entertainment for their customers.

They're a dying breed. I always try to support them. They don't want food and most of them are NOT homeless. They want money. If you want music played in the streets, then you should support them.


----------



## nbone (Dec 31, 2007)

I like your take on it all Ernie, but surely do understand others concerns with any type of engagement with a group like that. Its a shame it has to be that way, but is a true reality of the current times. I surely wouldn't want my wife and dau. engaging in any way with them, but I see your point too. In "some" instances just a kind word/conversation could make a diff. in ones life, or at least open the door to a chance too. But, this doesn't sound like that instance. A guy sitting with a sign, may stir some disgust among some, but I can walk by or talk to him, much different than a group that seems intimidating and aggressive. I'd have to side with, call the store, or Corp. office. If they think it could cost them slightest bit of profit, those kids will be gone in a flash. Let "johnny law" confront them, not one of our ladies and child armed with pepper spray.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Once she explained the situation a little more then it certainly didn't sound like a good situation and I completely respect the individual's judgment call on any of these situations.

But I do advocate in homesteaders helping the homeless. We're oddballs and they're oddballs. I think that, in general, oddballs should stick together.


----------



## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

simi-steading said:


> Last time I was in Chicago, there was a hippy guy with long dreads sitting there playing some super mean harmonica.. This guy was crazy good... He had a sign out saying "Please donate for beer... I listened a while, and gave him a couple bucks... Great entertainment, and the guy was honest what he wanted money for... How can you resist? I got no problem buying a guy a beer...


My Dad traveled 5 days a week for his job, so he saw a lot of panhandling in his day. He usually gave a dollar or two here and there, when he could spare it.

He told me once that a man who appeared to be homeless walked up to him one day and said "Look mister, I'm gonna be honest with you. I'm an alcoholic and I haven't had a drink in a while, and if I don't get a drink soon I'm gonna be real sick. Could you spare some cash so I can get a drink?" Dad appreciated his honesty and gave the guy $20. Then, typical of my Dad, he said "But don't let me catch you using it to buy a sandwich or something!" He and the man both laughed, the man thanked him profusely, and then went across the street into the liquor store to buy his booze.

I rarely have cash on me to give to begin with, and I donate the little spare money I have to organizations that I have fully vetted to ensure that my money is going to a good cause. But I'd rather see a panhandler holding an honest sign ("Too lazy to get a job", "alcoholic needs $ for booze", etc) than the ones that you know are just blatant lies ("will work for food").


----------



## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

> But the problem is that almost all employment in America is on a contract basis. You come in, fill out an application, pee in a cup, and then they'll pay you minimum wage to work the hours THEY want you to work, for as long as they want you to work and they'll fire you on the spot when they're done with you.


On top of that most places wont pay you for a week or two. If you really need money now that's not gonna cut it. There are some valuable survival lessons to be learned from the homeless and others like them who live on the fringes of society.


----------



## Paumon (Jul 12, 2007)

simi-steading said:


> Last time I was in Chicago, there was a hippy guy with long dreads sitting there playing some super mean harmonica.. This guy was crazy good... He had a sign out saying "Please donate for beer... I listened a while, and gave him a couple bucks... Great entertainment, and the guy was honest what he wanted money for... How can you resist? I got no problem buying a guy a beer...


Too funny and sounds a bit familiar. The last time we were in Tucson for the annual gem and mineral show there was a guy in costume in front of one of the entrances. He had a sign up that said "get your picture taken with me for $1" and when I asked he why he said "so I can buy myself a bag of pot tonight". :hysterical:He was quite assertive about posing for pictures but he was a hoot, a really funny guy with a beautiful smile and cracked some great jokes at us. 

He was pure ebony skinned with colored symbols painted on his face, thighs and arms, feathers and bones in his hair and dressed as a barbarian warrior with a fake spear and battleaxe, a shield on his arm, a home-made chainmail armour tunic made from beer can rings and a loincloth made from braided strips of leather straps and fake leopard fur, and knee high boots. You could tell he had made the entire costume himself and had done an imaginative job of it. 

We each one of us in our group got our pictures taken with him.


----------



## blaundee (Nov 3, 2012)

The store manager should chase them off- customers should not have to deal with that sort of harassment. Panhandling/begging/stealing is common in NM, but most store managers make a point of walking around the parking lots & chasing those people off.


----------



## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

blaundee said:


> The store manager should chase them off- customers should not have to deal with that sort of harassment. Panhandling/begging/stealing is common in NM, but most store managers make a point of walking around the parking lots & chasing those people off.



Our town passed an "anti-aggressive panhandling" law because of stuff like this.


----------



## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Post 48 was excellent Ernie. Been there, done that.


----------



## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Most predators respect other predators.... A group of wolves will sometimes harass a grizzly bear... the bear usually wins, but enough wolves will make even it nervous, and wander off.

If concealed carry isn't an option, or if it is available, but you can't afford it, you can always 'bluff' them into thinking your armed. A small fanny pack, worn in front, with a good bulge will ward off most evildoers... making a point of unzipping and placing your hand inside, while staring them in the eye, should make them leave.

Bluffing doesn't work? The real thing will work wonders. If I had a firearm, I'd never 'show it' till it was time to use it. Imho, criminals are more polite in states where concealed carry is the law... they don't want to get shot.

You can either live in fear, or they can... when it comes down to choices of them vs. me, I have a peculiar habit of always siding with me.


----------



## texastami (Sep 13, 2002)

We have a guy who has a sign that says "hungry, anything helps"... and then just as you roll up to where he is standing (on the corner of the street), he flips it over and it says "Why lie? I want a beer...." 

guess he thinks his honesty is worth a few bucks.... WHATEVER


----------



## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Probably mentioned this before...
My grandpa loved panhandlers when they come through town... especially if they had "Will Work For Food" signs... He'd pick em up, and start carrying em home.......to WORK... they'd beg him to let them out of his truck, full of shovels, axes, barbed wire rolls, etc.

Thing is, he actually took in young people and gave them homes... back before there was such a thing as Child Protective Services, welfare, or other handout programs. They all worked, but got a safe and secure home, and never went to school with bad clothes, or went hungry.


----------



## BabyGoats (Apr 8, 2013)

for telling them to "Back Off!"

I'd like to share this, from an article about how psychopaths choose their victims: "
*And what was it about these people that made them seem vulnerable? A later study found that the men were picking up on whole suite of nonverbal cues, including the length of their stride, how they shifted their weight, and how high they lifted their feet. Taken together, these cues gave the psychopathic men a rough gauge of how confident their potential victims were. Body language that implies a lack of confidence --- read: socially submissive --- includes lack of eye contact, fidgeting of the hands and feet, and the avoidance of large gestures when shifting posture.*

Women need to MAKE eye contact, not avert their gaze. Looking down, avoiding eye contact tells bums you're afraid and submissive. Walk straight, don't hunch your shoulders- appear assertive. One way to walk around in public is to practice walking like you're on your way to an important appointment- not wander around aimlessly. I used to be one of those victims- I always wondered why bums seemed to single me out of a crowd. It was my submissive look and gait. 

Look like you won't' take sh%t from people and it will help a lot. I was out walking one day and had to pass by a crummy bus stop frequented by bum types. One of the bums started with the "..scuse me.." I turned around like and gave him a "look"- he suddenly changed his mind and stuttered out "oh sorry, thought you were somebody else" yeah suuure. 

Good people really in need don't ask strangers in the street for help. Consider all beggars to be crooks. It's not meanness, it's the truth. And it's about time we start putting these bums in their place and not allowing them free rein. I keep my tear gas spray (they sell some that click on to a keychain) handy, and try not to shop at places bad guys seem to congregate. And yes, it seems Dollar Tree is the type of place they always hang out- that and those corner stores like Circle K. I avoid those type of shops and when I go into a place, if I get a bad vibe I simply turn around and walk out, even if I just walked in.

Another problem that American women in particular have is the fear of appearing ""rude" or racist so we allow ourselves to engage in conversation or avoid changing the side of the street we're on when we walk. Don't worry what some stranger thinks about you! Switch seats, cross to the other side, do whatever you want and don't concern yourself with what other people think about you- who cares? They are strangers. Don't ever talk to people who come up to you on the street asking for something. 

I disagree with the fellow who says you "may miss out on a good story" what?? How good can the story BE? Sorry, I have lots of books if I want a good story, don't need to hear one from a bum who may run off with my purse, or worse yet with my life.


times are tough, times have changed. Stay safe, don't talk to strangers.


----------



## mpillow (Jan 24, 2003)

LOL me assertive....(always)


----------

