# Worming naturally?



## katc

Hey, all! I have a warmblood and 3 minis whom I have started worming naturally (to avoid chemicals in the compost going into my garden). I've been using a combination of Grapefruit Seed Extract in their water and pumpkin seeds. My big girl and two of my minis are doing GREAT. My smallest mini gelding, however, always seems to get the worst worm load. The last two times we wormed, it seemed to do the trick. But this spring he just can't quite seem to get the whole load dumped. Is there anything I'm missing? A different type of parasite that isn't sensitive to the GSE and pumpkin and needs something else to kick it out? I will, of course, use a conventional wormer if I can't get it figured out, but I'd REALLY rather not.


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## Maura

What does your vet say? Some parasite load is expected, they are never parasite free. Are you rotating pasture? This is a great technique to keep parasite loads down. Is there anything growing in your pasture that is a vermicide? My donkeys (and sheep) would nibble on these plants as needed.


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## GrannyCarol

Yeah, I would definitely have a stool sample checked to see just what he's got going on and you can make an informed decision as to what he needs.


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## haypoint

A fecal sample can detect eggs and worms that are being expelled at the time of the sample collection. Sadly, none will show up if the parasites are elsewhere, like in the lungs, liver, heart, etc.

I hate chemicals and I love my horses. I have studied ivermectin more than most. It was discovered in nature. In a soil sample in Japan, I believe. Now it is recreated in a laboratory.

I worm quite a few animals. The tube paste wormers are convenient and harder for the horse to spit out. But they are expensive, too. So, I buy a bottle of injectable ivermectin, put the proper amount in a syringe, remove the needle and squirt the ivermectin into the back of my horses mouth. 

You'd have to ask your Vet about any remaining chemical that passes through the horse's digestive tract. I'm not sure if it all breaks down or not. Not a concern to me since the chemical compound is found in nature anyway.

I could tell you that what you are using is ineffective and you can cite a web site that says different. Ask your Vet. Ask ten Vets. These methods have an effect in large doses. Like the chemicals in tobacco, in large doses, will paralyze some types of worms in the digestive track. So you see a mass of worms in the manure. But parasites live in other places in your horse and it takes a near toxic load of tobacco to cause this partial dump.

Older animals are not going to show parasite damage as obviously as colts. So as your animals mature, they'll look better while carrying a worm load than a colt would.

Ivermectrin is safe for me to drink, would take a lot to even cause temporary diarrhea. So any amount, if there is any amount, that gets added to tons of composting manure, wouldn't bother me to add to my garden. I think that the bacteria from wild bird dropping would be of greater concern, psittacosis, or e coli that occurs in horse manure, or chlorine in the city water system to be far worse.


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## arabian knight

Yes Ivermectin is so safe that in 3rd world countries they are using to deworm Humans~!
And in Mini's you have to be careful IF using some other products that you do not ACCIDENTALLY Overdoes~! But in the event of a accidentally overdose of Ivermectin it is way better to use that product as it won't hurt your mini. Having minis for years I have read up on dewormers. And Ivermectin is the safest for minis.
Don't forget their are three stages for worms in horses. Even doing a fecal sample will ONLY TELL worms at THAT one stage.
There are ALWAYS worms in horses, so a nice Safe deworming program is the only way to keep worms at a low count.
After all who has a better love of minis and their health then me. I housebreak them haul them around in the back of my car and they do enjoy watching TV while in the house. LOL


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## katc

Thank you for the responses. I suffer from Chemical Sensitivity issues, so I've gotten pretty strict about what ends up in the food I'm eating (or the soil my food is growing in). I had not actually researched ivermectin, just assumed that it was a chemical and that I should try to avoid it, like I do pesticides and herbicides.


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## haypoint

katc said:


> Thank you for the responses. I suffer from Chemical Sensitivity issues, so I've gotten pretty strict about what ends up in the food I'm eating (or the soil my food is growing in). I had not actually researched ivermectin, just assumed that it was a chemical and that I should try to avoid it, like I do pesticides and herbicides.


Great that you have determined that you have chemical sensitivities. 

I recommend you separate the chemicals that you are sensitive to and what isn't. It must be a challenge to assess each ingredient and the path it takes on its way to your plate?

As I'm sure you understand, everything is a chemical compound of some sort. Take water, for example, it is a compound of two chemicals. 

Pesticides tend to be more toxic than most herbicides. Apparently killing plants is far easier than killing insects.

Do you mulch your garden with newspapers? Do you microwave plastic food dishes? Apple juice generally comes from Chinese concentrate. Most honey is imported from China. Sustainably raised fish is code for farm pond raised. 

Do you have allergies? Have you had an allergy test by a doctor?


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## GrannyCarol

If you have chemical sensitivities, you may also want to look into using Panacur (fenbendazole) to worm your horses. I would consider that even safer than Ivermectin. I've used it on horses and dogs (and it is used on people too) and it's almost impossible to overdose it. I have an Ivermectin sensitive dog (a collie), it's not completely safe for all creatures. She has a mutant gene that causes the sensitivity, something her breeder is working on, but Tango has one normal and one mutant. Her offspring are better, most are normal/normal, so her breeder can go forward with improved health in her dogs. It is a good, useful and reasonably safe drug. 

The argument it was found naturally is pretty useless - a lot of compounds are found naturally and are flat out poisonous, or very useful in smaller doses, but not safe in larger ones. It's not that simple, unfortunately. Also, although a compound can be safe to eat, when it is digested, it can change into something else that is less safe, be sure to check into that. That applies to "natural" wormers as well as manufactured ones. I hope I don't confuse you, but this can be a complicated subject.


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## arabian knight

The main thing when deworming minis is Get THEIR WEIGHT Correct~!!! And that is for ANY type of deworming medicine~! It is very important when it comes to deworming miniature horses..ALL deworming meds are given according to the WEIGHT of the horse. And in the case of minis there weight is hard to just look at them to guess at what they weigh, Don't Guess ~! Know what they weigh.


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## DisasterCupcake

katc said:


> Thank you for the responses. I suffer from Chemical Sensitivity issues, so I've gotten pretty strict about what ends up in the food I'm eating (or the soil my food is growing in). I had not actually researched ivermectin, just assumed that it was a chemical and that I should try to avoid it, like I do pesticides and herbicides.


Ivermectin is passed through the GI tract and excreted. 

Some breeds of cattle and sheep dogs, predominantly collies, are susceptible to eating the feces of recently wormed sheep, goats, cattle, horses, and experiencing toxic effects due to a gene that allows the chemical to pass the blood-brain barrier. 

How long has it been since you switched to natural dewormers? Animals coming off of a conventional schedule of chemical worming often are dependent on them, and will need extra support during the transitional period. They may even require you to use the appropriate chemical dewormer to get over the parasite load before they can begin to charge their own immune system. 

Is there a place you can stall or keep the horse seperate while he is wormed so that you can muck his manure to a pile that is not used for compost or fertilizer? 

In addition to the things you mentioned, there are herb combinations like wormwood and black walnut that can be fed at the appropriate dose for a few days. I've also had a lot of success using Shaklee's Basic H in the water trough from time to time. That is at your discretion however, as the product is not approved for ingestion let alone worming. 

I've also had a lot of success with skinny, ill horses by feeding soaked whole oats. Not sure what it is about it, but it nearly always perks them up, puts weight on, and without a wormy belly.


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## haypoint

While some ivermectin, after permeating every cell of the animal will be expelled in the manure, it commonly degrades in a day or two. Even then it binds to soil and does not uptake into plants.
It is possible that the Collies with the genetic predisposition to an allergic reaction to ivermectin, you&#8217;d need a dog that swallows quantities of manure quickly after the horse expels it. Since that might also contain several stages of several parasites, I&#8217;d want to keep my Collie away anyway. 


Animals that have been administered commercial wormers do not develop any sort of dependency. Younger animals are more severely damaged by parasites than older animals. Older animals do not develop an immunity, they just don&#8217;t show the signs as much.
If it were possible to rid your animals and their environment of all forms of parasites, then there would be no further need for commercial wormers. In real world situations, that never happens.
Herb combinations like wormwood or black walnut can be fed, but will not rid your horse of damaging parasites. Nor will garlic, cinnamon, tobacco or Basic H.
If you have a high level of concern, you could confine the horse for a few days following administering ivermectin, place that manure in an area where the sun can quickly break down the chemicals. Then, a week later, add it to your compost pile.
Artery biting, blood sucking, liver migrating, lung traveling worms and grubs will not be stopped by adding oats to their feed. Oats are a far easier to digest food that is higher in protein. It will fatten up a horse. It may even make a horse that has an infestation of various parasites look better. 
A &#8220;hay belly&#8221; is often seen in horses fed lower quality hay and no high proteins, like grains. The horse, unlike cattle, cannot extract all the crude fiber nutrients in lower quality hay. In an attempt to obtain sufficient nutrients, a horse will fill up on hay, while the other areas remain thin. This would also be true if the worms and grubs were devouring blood and organs faster than the horse could rebuild them, causing a starved horse appearance with a full duodenum (hay gut).


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## aoconnor1

I am a firm believer in worming my horses regularly, and once a year I have fecals done to be sure I'm hitting all parasites. I use Ivermectin mostly, but once a year I use Panacur to hit what the ivermectin might miss. The last fecal I had done was parasite free, a real feat for a cattle and horse ranch with over 30 head of horses and 16 head of cattle! I simply can't afford to have a horse of cow go down physically because of a parasite infection. 

I believe ivermectin and Panacur are both very safe, hope this helps you some.


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## Lisa in WA

aoconnor1 said:


> I am a firm believer in worming my horses regularly, and once a year I have fecals done to be sure I'm hitting all parasites. I use Ivermectin mostly, but once a year I use Panacur to hit what the ivermectin might miss. The last fecal I had done was parasite free, a real feat for a cattle and horse ranch with over 30 head of horses and 16 head of cattle! I simply can't afford to have a horse of cow go down physically because of a parasite infection.
> 
> I believe ivermectin and Panacur are both very safe, hope this helps you some.


Do you not have to worry about tapeworms down there? We hit ours once a year with praziquantel to get the little buggers.


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## aoconnor1

basketti said:


> Do you not have to worry about tapeworms down there? We hit ours once a year with praziquantel to get the little buggers.


Yes, I worm with Equimax once a year, it has Ivermectin and Praziquantel.


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## DisasterCupcake

Animals that are being dewormed on a regular schedule do become dependant on wormers.

Animals that are parasite-resistant have built up immunity to worms and other parasites. The only difference between an animal that is dependant on wormers and one that is resistant is their educated immune system. If a worm load is routinely 'taken care of' by a medicine, the immune system does not have to deal with it, and is not educated to deal with it. If you suddenly stop worming animals that are in a schedule, they will either succumb to a large worm load, or they will look very bad for a long time and slowly recover as their immune system is educated.

Since worms are a ubiquitous part of ecology and cannot simply be avoided, everyone finds a way that works for them to deal with them. Neither is right or wrong. Just different.


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## haypoint

DisasterCupcake said:


> Animals that are being dewormed on a regular schedule do become dependant on wormers.
> 
> Animals that are parasite-resistant have built up immunity to worms and other parasites. The only difference between an animal that is dependant on wormers and one that is resistant is their educated immune system. If a worm load is routinely 'taken care of' by a medicine, the immune system does not have to deal with it, and is not educated to deal with it. If you suddenly stop worming animals that are in a schedule, they will either succumb to a large worm load, or they will look very bad for a long time and slowly recover as their immune system is educated.
> 
> Since worms are a ubiquitous part of ecology and cannot simply be avoided, everyone finds a way that works for them to deal with them. Neither is right or wrong. Just different.


If I said chocolate cupcakes were the best and you insisted that Lemon cupcakes were the best, we could agree to disagree.

If I said the earth was flat and you said it was round, that isn't a topic we could agree to disagree. I'd be wrong and you'd be right. There is science to support that.

That you want to use herbs to perform a task that is beyond their ability isn't a subject that fits "neither right or wrong". 

Growing animals are more severely damaged by parasites than adults. I'm a bit hesitant to call that an immunity, since most animals battle parasites their entire lives.

I want to exercise dominion over my animals. I am their steward. I will use effective wormers to minimize the destruction of the organs and circulatory system.
It appears that you strive to keep chemicals out of your life at the peril of the animals in your charge, perpetuating the herbal wormer myths.

Those are two opposing animal husbandry methods. I cannot alter your beliefs nor can you change mine. On that, we can agree.


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## Lisa in WA

DisasterCupcake said:


> Animals that are being dewormed on a regular schedule do become dependant on wormers.
> 
> Animals that are parasite-resistant have built up immunity to worms and other parasites. The only difference between an animal that is dependant on wormers and one that is resistant is their educated immune system. If a worm load is routinely 'taken care of' by a medicine, the immune system does not have to deal with it, and is not educated to deal with it. If you suddenly stop worming animals that are in a schedule, they will either succumb to a large worm load, or they will look very bad for a long time and slowly recover as their immune system is educated.
> 
> Since worms are a ubiquitous part of ecology and cannot simply be avoided, everyone finds a way that works for them to deal with them. Neither is right or wrong. Just different.


Do you have a link with evidence supporting this?


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## DisasterCupcake

basketti said:


> Do you have a link with evidence supporting this?


Sure. 

"The difference between parasite resistance and susceptible sheep is their immune response to the parasite (Greiner 2004)"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14974560

"Both innate and adaptive immunities protect the host from H. contortus infection. Clearance of the nematode in immunized sheep requires several events, including the activation of nonspecific defense mechanisms, the recognition of parasitic somatic and excretion/secretion antigens, and the initiation of an appropriate acquired response [54]."
kkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3591228/

Susceptibility to parasites has been generally thought to be determined largely by genetics. However, with good management and breeding practices, more parasite resistant or resilient animals can be developed even within susceptible breeds. However, it is my personal opinion that using chemical dewormers slows the progression of breeding resistant animals due to the fact that, selection for resistance is impossible when the parasitic load is artificially checked.


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## Lisa in WA

DisasterCupcake said:


> Sure.
> 
> "The difference between parasite resistance and susceptible sheep is their immune response to the parasite (Greiner 2004)"
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14974560
> 
> "Both innate and adaptive immunities protect the host from H. contortus infection. Clearance of the nematode in immunized sheep requires several events, including the activation of nonspecific defense mechanisms, the recognition of parasitic somatic and excretion/secretion antigens, and the initiation of an appropriate acquired response [54]."
> kkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3591228/
> 
> Susceptibility to parasites has been generally thought to be determined largely by genetics. However, with good management and breeding practices, more parasite resistant or resilient animals can be developed even within susceptible breeds. However, it is my personal opinion that using chemical dewormers slows the progression of breeding resistant animals due to the fact that, selection for resistance is impossible when the parasitic load is artificially checked.


In horses. 

From what I've read, there is very little chance of domestic horses other than range horses having an opportunity to develop immunity to parasites because of how we keep them.

And I've still not seen any clinical evidence of "natural anthelmintics" actually working. Has something new developed over the past year or so?


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## haypoint

How is your breeding horses for parasite resistance coming? Have you located the horses that have this resistance to parasites? Is this a hereditary characteristic? 

It is my uneducated opinion that changing an animal to react differently to parasites is possible, in theory, but highly unlikely and requiring many centuries of selective breeding.

If there is one horse with an actual immunity to all parasites, not that I believe it actually exists, that horse's DNA could be spliced into the DNA of all other horses, making all horses immune to parasites.

To eliminate the use of chemical wormers, protect all horses from the internal devastation caused by parasites, would you favor this alteration of the horse's DNA?


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## barnbilder

To see clinical evidence of natural anthelmintic efficacy, there would have to be subjective research done on it. That is not likely to happen in our current system of a politically charged scientific community. If an herbalist hired enough lobbyists, you might see it, but that situation is not very realistic, because there is a lot more money in pharmaceutical wormers, naturally occuring anthelmentics are usually really cheap if not free.

If you use natural wormers and do fecals, just remember, the results are not valid, because the life stage might not be proper at the time of the fecal. But if you use chemical wormers, you can get away with one fecal a year, just to see if you need to switch chemicals. 

Whatever happened to being able to look at your animals and tell whether they were wormy or not? Seems like if you were a good steward you would brush up on those skills a little. 

If you use the same trusted wormer time after time, just because of what you think you know about it's efficacy, it is eventually going to let you down. Sometimes hard. I don't care how much you pay for it. No such thing as the perfect broad spectrum wormer. If you aren't using an integrated approach to parasites, you aren't being a good steward of your animals. Depending on a couple of specific chemical families is not sound animal husbandry. They can disappear in the blink of an eye. All you need is some meth-head figuring out how to mix it with something else to make a recipe (almost happened with tramisol). A bunch of idiots pouring the stuff in a bunch of pet animals whether they need it or not can cause resistance, just the same as the FDA pulling it off the market. Most of the horses I see it wouldn't matter if they had worms or not, it's not like they ever do anything but lay around in a pasture. Some of them go for a ride once in a while, but they still spend more time riding than being ridden.


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## barnbilder

Well, it is purely my opinion that most horses wouldn't really die of exertion exacerbated by parasites. And there isn't much way to prove that a good stockman can tell when something is near a worm threshold by looking at it, smelling it's breath, running his fingers through it's hair. But for the benefits of parasites, I'm not really into spoon feeding people information that is easily found. I don't have any handy government statistics that I can easily copy and paste. I suppose if you read on some of the work of Graham Rook you might learn something, but there will probably be big words.


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## Irish Pixie

barnbilder said:


> Well, it is purely my opinion that most horses wouldn't really die of exertion exacerbated by parasites. And there isn't much way to prove that a good stockman can tell when something is near a worm threshold by looking at it, smelling it's breath, running his fingers through it's hair. But for the benefits of parasites, I'm not really into spoon feeding people information that is easily found. I don't have any handy government statistics that I can easily copy and paste. I suppose if you read on some of the work of Graham Rook you might learn something, but there will probably be big words.


I understand completely. 

One question- until a person gets to the exalted level of being able to smell parasites on a horse's breath, is it OK to use a proven to work dewormer? Or must the horse suffer?

I Googled Graham Rook, a UK based MD, but found nothing to indicate he has ever published any research regarding parasites and horses. Could you be more specific?


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## aoconnor1

barnbilder said:


> Well, it is purely my opinion that most horses wouldn't really die of exertion exacerbated by parasites. And there isn't much way to prove that a good stockman can tell when something is near a worm threshold by looking at it, smelling it's breath, running his fingers through it's hair. But for the benefits of parasites, I'm not really into spoon feeding people information that is easily found. I don't have any handy government statistics that I can easily copy and paste. I suppose if you read on some of the work of Graham Rook you might learn something, but there will probably be big words.


I beg to differ with you about being unable to prove that a "good stockman" knows when a horse has parasites. When there is an infestation issue, the horses coats get dull, sometimes the hairs curl upward, and lots of times the tail head is frizzy from rubbing their itchy backside. They can become less interested in feed, drink less water, and look "down" in their eyes and body language. Often times they will present a colic. They may also present with diarrhea if it is a heavy load. 

Don't even start to tell me about knowing when animals have a parasite load, it IS very visible to the eye of a good horseman or woman, and most of us make sure our horses never get to those stages of infestation by using, GASP, a commercial wormer to protect our animals from all sorts of issues that can and do arise form parasitic infestations.


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## Irish Pixie

basketti said:


> In horses.
> 
> From what I've read, there is very little chance of domestic horses other than range horses having an opportunity to develop immunity to parasites because of how we keep them.
> 
> And I've still not seen any clinical evidence of "natural anthelmintics" actually working. Has something new developed over the past year or so?


The linked article is over 12 years old as well. I'd like to see current and species specific information.

I'm not saying there aren't natural dewormers don't work, it's that I'm not familiar with them. 

When I was a kid a horse was old at 16, due to better health care and deworming in particular, it's common now to see a horse working in it's 30s.


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## haypoint

It is true, an experienced eye can often detect massive parasitic loads. 

When the circulatory system has been stripped of nutrition, anemia results. If the anemia persists, you can see a whitening of the gums or eye lids. 

When the grubs and various worms have overtaken the animal's necessary nutrition, nutritional deficiencies will begin. At extreme levels, the animal's protective hair coat will suffer from this lack of nutrition, leaving a dull or patchy hair coat.

Different parasites attack different areas. Some chew through organs, like heart and liver. Some live in the digestive tract and chew on the intestinal lining. Some spend parts of their life cycle in the arteries, munching away on the arterial wall.

Even a person with the most basic understanding of biology should understand what happens when the intestinal lining or the artery wall is punctured or ruptures under stress.

In hundreds of thousands of years of natural selection, there are no documented equine cases of any measurable resistance to all parasites. I conclude that it is not going to happen in my lifetime with any type of "selective" breeding towards that "trait".

200 years ago, Michigan was mostly swamp and virgin white pine. There was very little wildlife due to the sterile forest floor. Once the swamps were drained and the forests cut, the land opened up to agriculture. Wildlife flourished. Pastures that had never been exposed to parasites provided a relatively low incidence of infestations in farm animals. It is likely that every pasture that has had wild life or domestic animals graze, are infected with parasites. Settlers that cleared the land benefited from high levels of fertility from the virgin soil and a lack of parasitic completion. 

The resulting changes in the farming environment include a variety of parasites living in the pastures. These parasites are replenished by wildlife and domestic livestock.


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## DisasterCupcake

Because of how we keep them, yes parasite resistance in horses is difficult to impossible to attain. 

There is far more research in commercially productive animals. Horses, while they can be productive, are not in the same class and probably won't garner as much attention for research. 

Since you quoted specifically on immunity to parasites, I hadn't realized you were asking for 'natural anthelmintics' research. No, I don't have any. Personally I find the term a little oxymoronic. There are herbs and other substances that provide good nutrition and support an animal in ridding itself of parasites. I would not call those 'natural anthelmintics'.

No, I don't breed horses. DNA is an interesting topic, but for the most part I stick with nutrition. Susceptible individuals can still be hardened, to whatever extent their genetics allow. I have converted, over several years, to 'natural' worm control from scheduled deworming. That is, using pasture rotations, chickens in the pasture, feeding DE or and at times of stress, supplements. This started following my vets advice to stretch the schedule out from 3 months to 4 and then to 6 months, to avoid parasite resistance. Now we only check once a year. The younger horses are doing better than older ones, in terms of needing invtervention. We still use chemical dewormers if they are indicated, mostly for the older horses. This may suggest genetics has less of a role than age of conversion, but that's just a bit of conjecture.

The most interesting part (to me) is the relationship that most parasites eventually develop with their hosts. We think of parasites generally as 'bad' or something at least best avoided. But they are just a part of ecology. They are filling a niche, like decomposing bacteria. Is it really the parasites that make an animal sick, or the animal that is sick is just a nice feeding ground for parasites? Another question we have to ask is, are we fighting a losing battle by trying to introduce species or breeds of animals unsuited to our environment, soils, climate, food chain, etc.


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## haypoint

Because of how we keep them, yes parasite resistance in horses is difficult to impossible to attain. 
No, parasite resistance is mythical. It simply doesn&#8217;t exist as an inheritable characteristic. 


True, there is more research on some common food animals than with horses. However, a huge amount of study is done on horses. 
I don&#8217;t know how I could politely state it any clearer. I&#8217;m not asking about &#8216;natural anthelmintic&#8217; research. My question is more basic: Proof. Herbs and spices are not effective wormers and if you claim differently, supply your proof that they are. Let&#8217;s take this in steps. Name the herbs and substances that provide good nutrition. Then, name the herbs and other substances that add to a horse&#8217;s health that enables it to combat parasites. To me it is like adding an octane booster to your car&#8217;s fuel to combat the salt that is rusting off your fenders. 


Some parasites survive for a couple seasons in a pasture. Rotational pastures work when the blades of grass never get below 3 or 4 inches tall. Parasites rest on the blades of grass, waiting to be ingested. Few people have that luxury of moving animals off a pasture with 3 inches of grass remaining.
DE works well on cabbage worms. DE does not work on internal parasites. A quick study and basic understanding on how and why it works on cabbage worms should explain why it cannot kill internal parasites.
There are enough toxins in tobacco that it is possible to poison your horse enough to flush the digestive tract of a gob of worms. I don&#8217;t recommend that and it does nothing to the other stages of those worms or worms in other parts of the horse.
Generally, younger horses are bothered more by parasites than older horses. Your conjecture of the opposite is suspect.
Are you saying that your Vet suggested you extend the interval between herbal treatments or did your Vet suggest an extension between effective commercial wormers?
Parasites are part of the ecology? Sure, but so are Zeka infected mosquitoes. There is no symbiotic relationship with their host.

You ask if it is the parasites that make the horse sick or was the sick horse an easier target?
Parasites don&#8217;t exactly cause disease. When parasites weaken the arterial wall, it is the burst artery that kills the horse, not the worm. When the parasites overtake the circulatory system, the animal is anemic. It is the lack of red blood cells that causes the anemia. Worms cause healthy horses to become unhealthy and untreated unhealthy horses can die.
Yes, we humans are introducing species or breeds of animals unnatural to our environment, soils, climate and food chain. By careful breed selection, we have obtained cattle that efficiently produce high quality, tasty protein. We have by careful breed selection obtained cattle that produce a hundred pounds of liquid milk, daily. We have, through plant breeding increased yields ten times the average just a few decades ago. We have developed farming methods that permit weed and pest control, without the soil robbing cultivations or toxic chemicals practiced by our ancestors.
Fighting a losing battle? Hardly. In the plant and animal segment of agriculture, we are working with nature like never before. Never before, in the history of mankind have we had such a wide array of healthy, pesticide free, food at our finger tips.
For anyone that believes their herbal methods work: After a few years of no commercial wormer, tie up your horse in a stall. Give them a normal, complete dose of a commercial wormer. Collect the manure for 24 hours. Lay the manure out on a picnic table and sort through it. Identify the species of grubs and worms. Google each species. Consider the damage you have permitted to go on inside your horse.


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## barnbilder

No symbiotic relationship between parasites and host? Do research and educate yourself. There are reams of research on the subject. By actual professors, not livestock savants hiding behind internet personas.

Nasty parasites tearing into their arteries and eroding their stomach lining. I know. Better not feed hay or take them outside of a padded stall then.


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## Irish Pixie

DisasterCupcake said:


> Ivermectin is passed through the GI tract and excreted.
> 
> Some breeds of cattle and sheep dogs, predominantly collies, are susceptible to eating the feces of recently wormed sheep, goats, cattle, horses, and experiencing toxic effects due to a gene that allows the chemical to pass the blood-brain barrier.
> 
> How long has it been since you switched to natural dewormers? Animals coming off of a conventional schedule of chemical worming often are dependent on them, and will need extra support during the transitional period. They may even require you to use the appropriate chemical dewormer to get over the parasite load before they can begin to charge their own immune system.
> 
> Is there a place you can stall or keep the horse seperate while he is wormed so that you can muck his manure to a pile that is not used for compost or fertilizer?
> 
> *In addition to the things you mentioned, there are herb combinations like wormwood and black walnut that can be fed at the appropriate dose for a few days*. I've also had a lot of success using Shaklee's Basic H in the water trough from time to time. That is at your discretion however, as the product is not approved for ingestion let alone worming.
> 
> I've also had a lot of success with skinny, ill horses by feeding soaked whole oats. Not sure what it is about it, but it nearly always perks them up, puts weight on, and without a wormy belly.


Black walnut can be toxic to horses causing colic and laminitis, this is due to the chemical juglone. 

http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/horse/pasture/black-walnut/docs/black-walnut.pdf


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## DisasterCupcake

haypoint said:


> Because of how we keep them, yes parasite resistance in horses is difficult to impossible to attain.
> No, parasite resistance is mythical. It simply doesnât exist as an inheritable characteristic.




Do you have research to back up that statement? 



> True, there is more research on some common food animals than with horses. However, a huge amount of study is done on horses.


That may be, but I'm not familiar with it. 


> I donât know how I could politely state it any clearer. Iâm not asking about ânatural anthelminticâ research. My question is more basic: Proof. Herbs and spices are not effective wormers and if you claim differently, supply your proof that they are. Letâs take this in steps. Name the herbs and substances that provide good nutrition. Then, name the herbs and other substances that add to a horseâs health that enables it to combat parasites. To me it is like adding an octane booster to your carâs fuel to combat the salt that is rusting off your fenders.




Politely, I did respond you explaining that no, I do not think that 'herbs or spices' are used or can be used successfully as wormers, so I will not support that statement. I did state that maintaining good health, nutrition and good management all play a cruicial role. I do not believe that there is any one magical blend of 'herbs and spices' that is going to cure every animal. 



> Some parasites survive for a couple seasons in a pasture. Rotational pastures work when the blades of grass never get below 3 or 4 inches tall. Parasites rest on the blades of grass, waiting to be ingested. Few people have that luxury of moving animals off a pasture with 3 inches of grass remaining.


This is the main reason why the way most people keep their animals requires chemical intervention. Luxury, to me, is depending on chemicals and synthetic health to keep livestock productive. 



> DE works well on cabbage worms. DE does not work on internal parasites. A quick study and basic understanding on how and why it works on cabbage worms should explain why it cannot kill internal parasites.


I never claimed to use it to kill internal parasites. 


> There are enough toxins in tobacco that it is possible to poison your horse enough to flush the digestive tract of a gob of worms. I donât recommend that and it does nothing to the other stages of those worms or worms in other parts of the horse.
> Generally, younger horses are bothered more by parasites than older horses. Your conjecture of the opposite is suspect.


It's a conjecture. 


> Are you saying that your Vet suggested you extend the interval between herbal treatments or did your Vet suggest an extension between effective commercial wormers?
> Parasites are part of the ecology? Sure, but so are Zeka infected mosquitoes. There is no symbiotic relationship with their host.



My vet suggested spreading out our chemical wormer treatments. 
Zika virus (that's what I assume you are referring to) hasn't been shown to cause much more than minor flu symtoms. Media hype played the birth defects in South America to be attributable to the virus with no data to support it. 
Whethor or not the virus has a symbiotic relationship with mosquitoes is not relevant to the discussion, imo.
[/QUOTE]
Since the rest seems to be your opinion I'll just ask, do you have research substantiating what you said?


----------



## Lisa in WA

DisasterCupcake said:


> Do you have research to back up that statement?
> 
> 
> That may be, but I'm not familiar with it.
> 
> 
> Politely, I did respond you explaining that no, I do not think that 'herbs or spices' are used or can be used successfully as wormers, so I will not support that statement. I did state that maintaining good health, nutrition and good management all play a cruicial role. I do not believe that there is any one magical blend of 'herbs and spices' that is going to cure every animal.
> 
> This is the main reason why the way most people keep their animals requires chemical intervention. Luxury, to me, is depending on chemicals and synthetic health to keep livestock productive.
> 
> 
> I never claimed to use it to kill internal parasites.
> 
> It's a conjecture.
> 
> My vet suggested spreading out our chemical wormer treatments.
> Zika virus (that's what I assume you are referring to) hasn't been shown to cause much more than minor flu symtoms. Media hype played the birth defects in South America to be attributable to the virus with no data to support it.
> Whethor or not the virus has a symbiotic relationship with mosquitoes is not relevant to the discussion, imo.



Two questions: where are you getting your info about Zika virus and do believe in homeopathy?


----------



## DisasterCupcake

basketti said:


> Two questions: where are you getting your info about Zika virus and do believe in homeopathy?


Not that I wouldn't be delighted to share my personal life story, I think we've left the realm of relevance to the discussion.


----------



## Lisa in WA

DisasterCupcake said:


> Not that I wouldn't be delighted to share my personal life story, I think we've left the realm of relevance to the discussion.


Simply looking for context. Not sure why you think my questions have anything to do with your life story at all.

Is the Zika question also too personal?


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## haypoint

I wish it were possible to prove an absolute. There have never been any parasite-proof horses. If there were one, it would be well studied and documented.
You may not be familiar with the extensive research on horses. Since you are not so terribly far from MSU, I&#8217;d suggest you visit their extensive equine division.
Earlier in this discussion you mentioned a couple herbs and even Basic H as treatments. Are you walking that statement back? Are they used successfully as wormers or not?
I&#8217;m not convinced that maintaining good health, nutrition and management prevents or even reduces parasites. With good health, nutrition and management, I might be more apt to survive a gun shot, but the good health, nutrition and management won&#8217;t stop the bullet. So, an animal with tip top care can endure a parasitic load better than one that is improperly fed. But, it is my contention the parasitic bite marks on the liver will be about the same.
I was all set to agree with your statement that there is not any magical blend of herbs and spices, but you added a clarification, &#8220;to cure every animal&#8221;. I contend that there is not any magical blend of herbs and spices that is going to cure any animal. We are still on the parasite topic, right?

Finally, we have an agreement: &#8220;the way most people keep their animals requires chemical intervention&#8221;
Oh, wow, two in a row:&#8221;Luxury is depending on chemicals and synthetic health to keep livestock productive.&#8221; What a wonderful time we live in, where we have the products and the means to provide for our health and the health of those in our care at a higher level than has ever been experienced in the history of mankind.

Sorry if I made a false assumption. If you don&#8217;t feed DE to get rid of internal parasites (doesn&#8217;t work), what is the purpose? 

Sorry if Zika and mosquitos wasn&#8217;t a good example. Perhaps Lyme disease and ticks? Avian Influenza and turkeys? Polio and children? Wire worms or Bots and colts. I just do not see any symbiotic relationship in any of this. 

You chose not to respond to the final paragraph in my diatribe. But it is both my opinion and is a collection of facts. Feel free to pick anything I stated that is not a fact. I doubt I've the time or will to catch you up on the last hundred years of agriculture, but if there's anything that really sticks in your craw, I'll explain it to you, with plenty of proof.


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## barnbilder

I am reminded of my professional experiences with a government agency when it was necessary to anesthetize aquatic vertebrates. Often we used clove oil. Eugenol is powerful stuff. Very effective, hard to overdose, cheap, locally available. When we needed to anesthetize fish that could end up in the human food chain, we were forbidden to use clove oil. There hadn't been a study on it, so it could not be used as a "drug". We had to order in some pharmaceutical junk that was 400 bucks a jar, known carcinogen, to use on fish destined for human consumption instead of clove oil, which is a common food ingredient, because "there hadn't been a study". It works, we know it works, but it is not expedient to study whether or not we can use it, so therefore, it doesn't work. That is how data works, and why you won't see a study on anything "natural". 

I still maintain that there is plenty of evidence that natural products are capable of killing some parasites. I also maintain that killing all parasites is not realistic, or even desirable. There is plenty of research that would indicate that parasites can have health benefits for their host. There is also plenty of research on how parasites can become resistant to commercial anthelmintics with repeated use.


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## haypoint

barnbilder said:


> I am reminded of my professional experiences with a government agency when it was necessary to anesthetize aquatic vertebrates. Often we used clove oil. Eugenol is powerful stuff. Very effective, hard to overdose, cheap, locally available. When we needed to anesthetize fish that could end up in the human food chain, we were forbidden to use clove oil. There hadn't been a study on it, so it could not be used as a "drug". We had to order in some pharmaceutical junk that was 400 bucks a jar, known carcinogen, to use on fish destined for human consumption instead of clove oil, which is a common food ingredient, because "there hadn't been a study". It works, we know it works, but it is not expedient to study whether or not we can use it, so therefore, it doesn't work. That is how data works, and why you won't see a study on anything "natural".
> 
> I still maintain that there is plenty of evidence that natural products are capable of killing some parasites. I also maintain that killing all parasites is not realistic, or even desirable. There is plenty of research that would indicate that parasites can have health benefits for their host. There is also plenty of research on how parasites can become resistant to commercial anthelmintics with repeated use.


I'm well aware of parasites becoming resistant to specific wormer formulations. While it is uncommon, good stewardship dictates that you rotate wormer formulations.

I've been unable to locate any of the "plenty" research of parasitic health benefits for host. We are discussing horses and I suppose we wouldn't be drifting too far if you cited research on other mammals. We aren't talking about insects or bacteria. While I'd love to search this out and learn about this, I've been unable to locate it. Is any of this research you speak of, on the internet?

As I mentioned in an earlier post, in a high enough concentration tobacco has a toxic effect and a gob of intestinal worms will be shoved out. So, I agree that natural products are CAPABLE of killing SOME parasites. But they are a long way off from being an effective wormer.


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## barnbilder

Most of the research has been on humans. Internal parasites keep production of certain immune cells more steady. Hay fever and asthma tend to be conditions of the affluent.


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## haypoint

barnbilder said:


> Most of the research has been on humans. Internal parasites keep production of certain immune cells more steady. Hay fever and asthma tend to be conditions of the affluent.


I've been unable to locate any of the "plenty" research of parasitic health benefits for host. We are discussing horses and I suppose we wouldn't be drifting too far if you cited research on other mammals.While I'd love to search this out and learn about this, I've been unable to locate it. Is any of this research you speak of, on the internet?:bored:

Are you implying that humans, infested with internal parasites, are therefore protected from asthma and hay fever?:umno:


----------



## aoconnor1

barnbilder said:


> Most of the research has been on humans. Internal parasites keep production of certain immune cells more steady. Hay fever and asthma tend to be conditions of the affluent.


I have stayed out of this fight, but, um, so hay fever and asthma (I have both and am anything but affluent), are issues of people WITHOUT parasite loads? So, those who are wealthy and hopefully parasite free are more prone to asthma and allergies? I must have a rich uncle out there somewhere who came along and wormed me as an infant and then paid our physicians to keep me parasite free. Otherwise I would be on parasite overload by now with super duper immune cells and my asthma and allergies would be gone.

Maybe I should find a stray, worm infested horse or dog and borrow some of its parasites so I can get rid of my allergies and asthma. How long do super immune cells take to grow?


----------



## DisasterCupcake

No one is saying that parasites cure anything, or even suggested the idea. 

No one is saying that there are animals that are 100% parasite-proof. 

There is evidence to show that parasites can develop symbiotic relationships with their hosts. 
http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1003000

I have read several other papers on research with Irritable Bowel Syndrom in humans. In clinical studies where introducition of whipworms were used to alleviate symptoms. In humans, IBS is associated with sterile living conditions and processed food, as are autoimmune disorders. I suppose I could site more research, but at this point, I really don't think anyone is taking anything I say seriously. So I'll save it. 



> Fighting a losing battle? Hardly. In the plant and animal segment of agriculture, we are working with nature like never before. Never before, in the history of mankind have we had such a wide array of healthy, pesticide free, food at our finger tips.


I concede that the quantity of food pouring out of our soils is at the highest it's ever been. However, the quality is abysmal. I do not know what you mean by 'we are working with nature like never before'. 


> For anyone that believes their herbal methods work: After a few years of no commercial wormer, tie up your horse in a stall. Give them a normal, complete dose of a commercial wormer. Collect the manure for 24 hours. Lay the manure out on a picnic table and sort through it. Identify the species of grubs and worms. Google each species. Consider the damage you have permitted to go on inside your horse.


You seem to suggest that presence of worms invariably means disease and damage to the host. Certainly parasites cause a lot of damage under certain conditions. But the outcome is not certain. Unless you have proof that 100% of the time there are worms, there is worm damage? 

For my statement that there isn't data to prove the microcephaly birth defects are caused by the Zika virus. I got it from the news. 
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/17/zika-hysteria-health-expert-research-leslie-lobel


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## Irish Pixie

Interesting theories on IBS and rhesus monkeys, I'll be interested to read more on the human trials. Do you have more information on autoimmune diseases being caused by "In humans, IBS is associated with sterile living conditions and processed food, *as are autoimmune disorders*." I have an autoimmune disorder (for the last 40+ years) and I'm always looking for additional information. 

The Zika cite you provided is from an unreliable website. Current information can be found here: http://www.cdc.gov/zika/

As far as refuting information- people come here to learn so all sides of a topic should be discussed. If I feel something isn't correct, is experimental, or can't be proven I'm going to say so.


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## barnbilder

Yes, doctors are actually infecting people with parasites to treat asthma, IBS, MS, and a host of other auto-immune diseases, evidently with success. It would seem that the germophobia enabled by modern technology has had disastrous results on relationships that developed over many thousands of years. It is not inconceivable to think that a zero parasite regimen could have those same results on livestock, with horses being some of the most medicated, and in many cases, the most sickly. I used to think that horse owners just had a tendency to exhibit Munchhausen-by-proxy, but some of this new research that is coming out, explains a lot.


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## DisasterCupcake

Irish Pixie said:


> Interesting theories on IBS and rhesus monkeys, I'll be interested to read more on the human trials. Do you have more information on autoimmune diseases being caused by "In humans, IBS is associated with sterile living conditions and processed food, *as are autoimmune disorders*." I have an autoimmune disorder (for the last 40+ years) and I'm always looking for additional information.
> 
> The Zika cite you provided is from an unreliable website. Current information can be found here: http://www.cdc.gov/zika/
> 
> As far as refuting information- people come here to learn so all sides of a topic should be discussed. If I feel something isn't correct, is experimental, or can't be proven I'm going to say so.


Sorry to hear. This is a more recent publication studying the dominant excratory proteins effects on immunoregulation. Which is probably more applicable to you than IBS studies. 

I didn't state that autoimmune disorders are caused by sterile environment or anything at all. Sorry to be nit-picky here. Association does not prove causation, and it's easy to fall through the cracks of semantics. 

We can agree to disagree on what a reliable source is. Suffice to say, the CDC does not make my list 

Edit; file too large to attach. Maybe you can find it online. "Therapeutic potential of larval excretory/secretory proteins of the pig whipworm Trichuris suis in allergic disease"

F. Ebner1,*, M. R. Hepworth1,2,*, S. Rausch1

R. Lucius5

, E. Hamelmann6 & S. Hartmann1

, K. Janek3


----------



## Irish Pixie

DisasterCupcake said:


> Sorry to hear. This is a more recent publication studying the dominant excratory proteins effects on immunoregulation. Which is probably more applicable to you than IBS studies.
> 
> I didn't state that autoimmune disorders are caused by sterile environment or anything at all. Sorry to be nit-picky here. Association does not prove causation, and it's easy to fall through the cracks of semantics.
> 
> We can agree to disagree on what a reliable source is. Suffice to say, the CDC does not make my list
> 
> Edit; file too large to attach. Maybe you can find it online. "Therapeutic potential of larval excretory/secretory proteins of the pig whipworm Trichuris suis in allergic disease"
> 
> F. Ebner1,*, M. R. Hepworth1,2,*, S. Rausch1
> 
> R. Lucius5
> 
> , E. Hamelmann6 & S. Hartmann1
> 
> , K. Janek3


Please just add the link to the file, it doesn't have to be added in full here. A bit nit picky because it was implied, "*as are* autoimmune diseases."

The information in your link on Zika is outdated and was media created hype. We can agree to disagree tho.


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## barnbilder

http://opensourcehelminththerapy.or.../Helminths_and_the_IBD_Hygiene_Hypothesis.pdf

10 seconds on google.


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## Irish Pixie

barnbilder said:


> http://opensourcehelminththerapy.or.../Helminths_and_the_IBD_Hygiene_Hypothesis.pdf
> 
> 10 seconds on google.


What is this link in reference to?


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## barnbilder

Irish Pixie said:


> What is this link in reference to?


It is in reference to the benefits of some parasites in curbing the host's auto-immune response responsible for inflammation, allergy, irritable bowel syndrome, asthma, and like conditions.

Here is a link that, if you read far enough, has information on natural and botanical substances as de-wormers. It is bookmarked with references to studies. I'm sure you could look those up. Might help to be fluent in French and German.

http://eap.mcgill.ca/agrobio/ab370-04e.htm


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## Irish Pixie

barnbilder said:


> It is in reference to the benefits of some parasites in curbing the host's auto-immune response responsible for inflammation, allergy, irritable bowel syndrome, asthma, and like conditions.
> 
> Here is a link that, if you read far enough, has information on natural and botanical substances as de-wormers. It is bookmarked with references to studies. I'm sure you could look those up. Might help to be fluent in French and German.
> 
> http://eap.mcgill.ca/agrobio/ab370-04e.htm


Sigh. Did either of you realize the article is 22+ years old? I do believe that research on the subject has changed just a bit in that time, don't you? 

And how can this be verified without cites that can be further researched? I don't speak German or French, can you translate please?


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## Irish Pixie

barnbilder said:


> http://opensourcehelminththerapy.or.../Helminths_and_the_IBD_Hygiene_Hypothesis.pdf
> 
> 10 seconds on google.


This research paper is from 2009 with no further development, at least that I can find.

Again, I don't care what anyone does with their stock. Treat them with herbs and spices but don't expect anyone to believe it without proof.


----------



## haypoint

"I concede that the quantity of food pouring out of our soils is at the highest it's ever been. However, the quality is abysmal. I do not know what you mean by 'we are working with nature like never before'. "

Soil Scientists have been able to study the plants nutritional requirements and soil amendments can be tailored to the plant's needs. We have, in large part, given up the damaging tillage methods that for the past thousand years lay waste to tons of topsoil per acre per year. It has become uncommon to spray insecticides on corn. Herbicide use has gone from highly toxic chemicals to highly diluted formulations that dissolve into harmless compounds within a week or two. Plant breeders are developing strains of corn that withstand soggy conditions as well as drought. Just to name a few ways. If you want to know more ways farmers work with nature, let me know and I'll gladly add to this list.

"You seem to suggest that presence of worms invariably means disease and damage to the host. Certainly parasites cause a lot of damage under certain conditions. But the outcome is not certain. Unless you have proof that 100% of the time there are worms, there is worm damage? "

If you had signs of a termite infestation in your home, I'd suggest the presence of termites invariably means damage to your home. While it may be true that I have no certain proof that the termites in your walls will damage your home and there may even be documented cases when a termite infested home did not collapse, I would not want you to risk having your home fall on your head. Lacking proof that 100% of homes collapsed following a termite infestation, would you withhold treatment?

"I didn't state that autoimmune disorders are caused by sterile environment or anything at all. Sorry to be nit-picky here. Association does not prove causation, and it's easy to fall through the cracks of semantics." 
Sorry, but when you write, "In humans, IBS is associated with sterile living conditions and processed food, *as are autoimmune disorders*." aren't you saying autoimmune disorders are associated with sterile living conditions? Aren't you implying that one causes the other? I understand your need to attach bad health with processed foods and your belief that modern high sanitation standards are bad. I only ask that you check your facts before you run the broad brush across all foods.

You say that parasites cause a lot of damage under certain conditions. My reply is that parasites can cause a lot of damage under any conditions and can cause a little damage under any conditions. We don't get to pick.


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## barnbilder

Irish Pixie said:


> This research paper is from 2009 with no further development, at least that I can find.
> 
> Again, I don't care what anyone does with their stock. Treat them with herbs and spices but don't expect anyone to believe it without proof.



If you can't find any further development, it is because you haven't looked. I have already given you plenty of information to find out plenty of information. You have repeatedly ignored it. It is not my problem if you don't know how to use a search engine.


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## barnbilder

Irish Pixie said:


> Sigh. Did either of you realize the article is 22+ years old? I do believe that research on the subject has changed just a bit in that time, don't you?
> 
> And how can this be verified without cites that can be further researched? I don't speak German or French, can you translate please?



I don't speak German. I can get by in French. Luckily my herbalist is fluent in both.

Could you please cite references for studies that prove that botanical substances don't kill parasites?


----------



## Irish Pixie

barnbilder said:


> I don't speak German. I can get by in French. Luckily my herbalist is fluent in both.
> 
> Could you please cite references for studies that prove that botanical substances don't kill parasites?


Why would I do that? I don't use botanicals to deworm my stock. I really don't care one way or the other, and it would be waste of my time.


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## barnbilder

Irish Pixie said:


> Why would I do that? I don't use botanicals to deworm my stock. I really don't care one way or the other, and it would be waste of my time.


So, why exactly are you on here speaking out against botanicals if you don't use them, and don't really care one way or another? If you can't provide specific information, or even anecdotal evidence, what exactly are you bringing to the discussion.


----------



## Irish Pixie

barnbilder said:


> So, why exactly are you on here speaking out against botanicals if you don't use them, and don't really care one way or another? If you can't provide specific information, or even anecdotal evidence, what exactly are you bringing to the discussion.


People come here to learn. Based on what you and others have said botanicals can kill reliably kill parasites, and I'm pointing out that there is no proof that this is true. By contributing both pro and con a reader can decide for themselves. 

I've been saying all along I don't care what you do with your stock but don't expect others to believe something without proof.


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## barnbilder

But if someone references proof, it is too outdated, or in the wrong language, or you can't seem to find it. I think anyone reading any of this could probably figure out plenty. It is certainly your prerogative to use commercially available chemicals, that way you have all of the studies to fall back on for piece of mind. I tend to like seeing results, in terms of measured output and animal performance. For my stock, (I don't have horses), I have had some pretty poor results out of commercial wormers. Lot's of resistance, lot's of spectrum shift. Mainly became interested in botanicals because I could use them with lactating animals (goats)in many cases without throwing away milk. Everything for many years was off label for goats anyway. There were no studies, still not many, but a few on meat goats now. So I learned a long time ago, if you are waiting on a study on something outside the mainstream, you might wait a long time. I see no reason that something that works on worms for one species won't work on worms for another species. For years, we gave Ivomec for horses to goats. 

Some people try to paint the picture that herbal treatment is throwing a few pumpkin seeds in the hay rack and sharing a chew of tobacco with your animal. You will get out of something exactly what you put into it. Doesn't matter if you use the same tired wormer from the feedstore shelf once every six months whether they need it or not, or if you save money with pumpkin seed, your animals will be disappointed. If you go to the trouble of consulting with an herbalist or an alternative/holistic vet, you can get some very good results from herbal treatments that have been in continuous use for eons.

Just remember, just because it is "not a chemical", it is still a chemical. Wild cherry leaves are all natural. So is silver nightshade, which will cause ivomec to cross the blood brain barrier and kill horses. Very helpful to have someone to consult with, some of the stuff is dangerous and you can overdose, some species process things differently, an etc. In many instances, we will probably never know how effective, or dangerous any of these things are, because there won't be a study.


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## arabian knight

Why all this talk about leaving or putting gin some parasites?
The OP was about MINIATURE HORSES, Horses ALWAYS have and always will have some stage of parasites in their system~!
When deworming you are getting one one the stages of worms. POSSIBLY TWO.
But you Never get ALL out no matter what the source of deworming is used. And Voo Doo types of deworming minis just does NOT CUT IT. Period~!
Use a dependable commercial dewormer and make sure the weight of the animal and ROTATE dewormers~!


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## Irish Pixie

barnbilder said:


> But if someone references proof, it is too outdated, or in the wrong language, or you can't seem to find it. I think anyone reading any of this could probably figure out plenty. It is certainly your prerogative to use commercially available chemicals, that way you have all of the studies to fall back on for piece of mind. I tend to like seeing results, in terms of measured output and animal performance. For my stock, (I don't have horses), I have had some pretty poor results out of commercial wormers. Lot's of resistance, lot's of spectrum shift. Mainly became interested in botanicals because I could use them with lactating animals (goats)in many cases without throwing away milk. Everything for many years was off label for goats anyway. There were no studies, still not many, but a few on meat goats now. So I learned a long time ago, if you are waiting on a study on something outside the mainstream, you might wait a long time. I see no reason that something that works on worms for one species won't work on worms for another species. For years, we gave Ivomec for horses to goats.
> 
> Some people try to paint the picture that herbal treatment is throwing a few pumpkin seeds in the hay rack and sharing a chew of tobacco with your animal. You will get out of something exactly what you put into it. Doesn't matter if you use the same tired wormer from the feedstore shelf once every six months whether they need it or not, or if you save money with pumpkin seed, your animals will be disappointed. If you go to the trouble of consulting with an herbalist or an alternative/holistic vet, you can get some very good results from herbal treatments that have been in continuous use for eons.
> 
> Just remember, just because it is "not a chemical", it is still a chemical. Wild cherry leaves are all natural. So is silver nightshade, which will cause ivomec to cross the blood brain barrier and kill horses. Very helpful to have someone to consult with, some of the stuff is dangerous and you can overdose, some species process things differently, an etc. In many instances, we will probably never know how effective, or dangerous any of these things are, because there won't be a study.


Significantly out of date, insufficient, and in another language research doesn't help anyone. All the name calling didn't either.

Can you be more condescending? Anyone that took high school chemistry know that everything is made up of chemicals.

So you don't have horses, have provided no current research on botanical dewormers, came in name calling people that disagreed with you, and just want us to take you at your word? No. Just no.


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## Lisa in WA

Irish Pixie said:


> Significantly out of date, insufficient, and in another language research doesn't help anyone. All the name calling didn't either.
> 
> Can you be more condescending? Anyone that took high school chemistry know that everything is made up of chemicals.
> 
> So you don't have horses, have provided no current research on botanical dewormers, came in name calling people that disagreed with you, and just want us to take you at your word? No. Just no.



That's what I decided. when people substitute name calling and condescension for actual knowledge and throw around jibberish and untruths that we are supposed to take at face value because he says so...No need to keep engaging with him. 

It's a waste of energy when I can be out doing something else. 

Insecure people who have to behave like this to make a point about something they have zero experience about are just not worth replying to after a couple of tries.


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## barnbilder

Yes zero experience. So people need to listen to the opinions of people that have zero experience with herbal wormers. I said I don't have horses, true, but I didn't say I didn't have equines. I have sheep on ground that has had sheep on it for over 200 years. I think I know a little something about parasites. 

Name calling? The same people peruse this sight and continually assault and insult anyone that doesn't do things the way the extension service says to do things. (You know, the guys that said chicken poop was good cow feed). 

People have a right to know that there are people who do not follow the norms, and are quite successful at it. People should know that the reason that there aren't studies, because it is not economically expedient to perform a study. There also aren't any studies showing the ineffectiveness of herbal agents, so that makes the studies irrelevant. 

Show me a study that says quassia doesn't kill parasites. Show me a study that says sericea lezpedeza doesn't have anti-parasitic properties. Then you will have something to add.


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## Irish Pixie

barnbilder said:


> Yes zero experience. So people need to listen to the opinions of people that have zero experience with herbal wormers. I said I don't have horses, true, but I didn't say I didn't have equines. I have sheep on ground that has had sheep on it for over 200 years. I think I know a little something about parasites.
> 
> Name calling? The same people peruse this sight and continually assault and insult anyone that doesn't do things the way the extension service says to do things. (You know, the guys that said chicken poop was good cow feed).
> 
> People have a right to know that there are people who do not follow the norms, and are quite successful at it. People should know that the reason that there aren't studies, because it is not economically expedient to perform a study. There also aren't any studies showing the ineffectiveness of herbal agents, so that makes the studies irrelevant.
> 
> Show me a study that says quassia doesn't kill parasites. Show me a study that says sericea lezpedeza doesn't have anti-parasitic properties. Then you will have something to add.


Dang. I simply don't care if some herbs and spices kill some parasites sometimes, I just don't. What I do care about is factual information, and there is currently no research that proves that non chemical dewormers work at least as efficiently as chemical ones.


----------



## DisasterCupcake

Irish Pixie said:


> Dang. I simply don't care if some herbs and spices kill some parasites sometimes, I just don't. What I do care about is factual information, and there is currently no research that proves that non chemical dewormers work at least as efficiently as chemical ones.


That is moot point when the purpose of the thread is to discuss NATURAL alternatives to commerical dewormers. 

We aren't here to discuss how/why we should be using commercial wormers. 

There is plenty of research evidence for natural wormers. Whether or not they hold up to commercial standards, or yours, is completely irrelevant.


----------



## DisasterCupcake

True, farmers do not spray as much insecticide. In reality, insecticide use has not dimished due the fact that GM plants now make their own. 

Truly damaging agricultural practices have become less damaging. Great. We've learned a lot about plants. Yet our soils today are 50 to 100 percent depleted of minerals and orgnanic matter than the same soils 50 years ago. This trend is not reversing.

Comparing mechanical systems to biological systems... original. 

Yes, I did say "In humans, IBS is associated with sterile living conditions and processed food, as are autoimmune disorders." Which translates directly to; In humans, IBS is associated with... and autoimmune disorders are associated with... 
Stating that there is association in NO way implies causation. 

I don't think you understand my needs at all. I have no need to make claims in areas outside of my experience or knowledge. However, after going back and forth over things you THINK I said, I have to say that you read between the lines pretty liberally.


----------



## Irish Pixie

DisasterCupcake said:


> That is moot point when the purpose of the thread is to discuss NATURAL alternatives to commerical dewormers.
> 
> We aren't here to discuss how/why we should be using commercial wormers.
> 
> There is plenty of research evidence for natural wormers. Whether or not they hold up to commercial standards, or yours, is completely irrelevant.


What is relevant is if they work at all. There is no current research to prove they do that I'm aware of. If there is current research that proves that natural dewormers work on equines, please provide it. 

The thread has moved off the original topic, that happens frequently.


----------



## Lisa in WA

I've been hearing over and over about "there are no studies!" And using clove oil as a fish anesthetic was used as an example. Here is what a quick Google search shows:


----------



## barnbilder

Original topic was that the OP, for his or her own reasons, wished to seek alternatives to synthetic chemical wormers. Probably came here to discuss other people's experience in using chemical wormers. If anyone dared share anything here, they would be incessantly ridiculed by people that make bold, nonfactual statements like "ivomec is safe, I could drink it".

Why would anybody study this stuff on horses, to see if the same efficacy witnessed in small ruminants from alternative feeds as wormers would hold true in equines? Equines have no commercial value, and most equine owners are very chemically oriented anyway. No meat withdrawals and no milk withdrawals to worry about
, so why not pour on the chemicals?

The gold standard of the pro synthetic chemical crowd seems to be total worm eradication. Killing some worms is not good enough. The research, which is quite current, in the field of human medicine, would indicate that this is not necessarily a good thing. The way some herbal feed additives work is with tannins. They can be added to feed nearly continuously, are nutritional, and have been proven to kill worms in the species of grazing animals they have been studied on. Due to the mode of their action, which is in creating unfavorable conditions for parasites within the host, they are not "purge wormers" and they don't rely on specific neuro-toxins which some parasites can build resistance to. Some botanicals do work through neurotoxicity. Hay is a wormer. Fiber scours the inside of the gut. Therefore, an apetite stimulant, would in effect be a form of wormer. The more fiber they eat, the more worms they shed, true there are worms that spend some time outside the gut, but most end up there eventually, or initially.


----------



## Irish Pixie

barnbilder said:


> Original topic was that the OP, for his or her own reasons, wished to seek alternatives to synthetic chemical wormers. Probably came here to discuss other people's experience in using chemical wormers. If anyone dared share anything here, they would be incessantly ridiculed by people that make bold, nonfactual statements like "ivomec is safe, I could drink it".
> 
> Why would anybody study this stuff on horses, to see if the same efficacy witnessed in small ruminants from alternative feeds as wormers would hold true in equines? Equines have no commercial value, and most equine owners are very chemically oriented anyway. No meat withdrawals and no milk withdrawals to worry about
> , so why not pour on the chemicals?
> 
> The gold standard of the pro synthetic chemical crowd seems to be total worm eradication. Killing some worms is not good enough. The research, which is quite current, in the field of human medicine, would indicate that this is not necessarily a good thing. The way some herbal feed additives work is with tannins. They can be added to feed nearly continuously, are nutritional, and have been proven to kill worms in the species of grazing animals they have been studied on. Due to the mode of their action, which is in creating unfavorable conditions for parasites within the host, they are not "purge wormers" and they don't rely on specific neuro-toxins which some parasites can build resistance to. Some botanicals do work through neurotoxicity. Hay is a wormer. Fiber scours the inside of the gut. Therefore, an apetite stimulant, would in effect be a form of wormer. The more fiber they eat, the more worms they shed, true there are worms that spend some time outside the gut, but most end up there eventually, or initially.


So people that use chemical dewormers are wrong and you're right just because you say so? No one should ask for proof to back up information provided? Is that what you're saying?

Thread drift happens... often.


----------



## barnbilder

basketti said:


> I've been hearing over and over about "there are no studies!" And using clove oil as a fish anesthetic was used as an example. Here is what a quick Google search shows:


 I think you missed my point. It works, people have known that it worked long before it was studied. The thing that hadn't been studied, was the effects of the clove oil (which is a food additive), used as a drug, on humans in the food chain.

Rotenone works too. It works too good. South American Indians knew it worked, without benefit of a study. They ground up root bark and dumped it in the water and waited downstream with a fish basket. People have been feeding things to animals for centuries and have seen gobs of worms come out the next day. It's not rocket surgery.


----------



## Lisa in WA

barnbilder said:


> I think you missed my point. It works, people have known that it worked long before it was studied. The thing that hadn't been studied, was the effects of the clove oil (which is a food additive), used as a drug, on humans in the food chain.
> 
> Rotenone works too. It works too good. South American Indians knew it worked, without benefit of a study. They ground up root bark and dumped it in the water and waited downstream with a fish basket. People have been feeding things to animals for centuries and have seen gobs of worms come out the next day. It's not rocket surgery.





barnbilder said:


> I am reminded of my professional experiences with a government agency when it was necessary to anesthetize aquatic vertebrates. Often we used clove oil. Eugenol is powerful stuff. Very effective, hard to overdose, cheap, locally available. When we needed to anesthetize fish that could end up in the human food chain, *we were forbidden to use clove oil. There hadn't been a study on it, so it could not be used as a "drug"*. We had to order in some pharmaceutical junk that was 400 bucks a jar, known carcinogen, to use on fish destined for human consumption i*nstead of clove oil, which is a common food ingredient, because "there hadn't been a study"*. It works, we know it works, but it is not expedient to study whether or not we can use it, so therefore, it doesn't work. That is how data works, and why you won't see a study on anything "natural".



Nope, didn't miss your point at all. You are just trying to change it because you were wrong. Pretty easy to see.


----------



## DisasterCupcake

People, this is a public thread. Not a peer reviewed publication. 

Yes, threads can drift. However, this isn't drift. If someone asks for ideas and such, and others get ridiculed/attacked for providing WHAT THE OP ASKED FOR, how are you in any way different from a bully? 

It's great that you feel the need to police a farm forum to protect the naive. Really, it isn't too much to ask for experiential or published references. But then to go on and on about how everything you supply is sh*t and not worth YOUR time, is going a bit far, donchya think? On top of that making statements that you in fact can't back up or refuse to. 

/done.


----------



## Lisa in WA

DisasterCupcake said:


> People, this is a public thread. Not a peer reviewed publication.
> 
> Yes, threads can drift. However, this isn't drift. If someone asks for ideas and such, and others get ridiculed/attacked for providing WHAT THE OP ASKED FOR, how are you in any way different from a bully?
> 
> It's great that you feel the need to police a farm forum to protect the naive. Really, it isn't too much to ask for experiential or published references. But then to go on and on about how everything you supply is sh*t and not worth YOUR time, is going a bit far, donchya think? On top of that making statements that you in fact can't back up or refuse to.
> 
> /done.


Hey cupcake...you haven't been able to back up any claim you've made, period. Just because you want to believe in homeopathy and other fairy tales, doesn't mean you won't be called on it.


----------



## GrannyCarol

haypoint said:


> ...For anyone that believes their herbal methods work: After a few years of no commercial wormer, tie up your horse in a stall. Give them a normal, complete dose of a commercial wormer. Collect the manure for 24 hours. Lay the manure out on a picnic table and sort through it. Identify the species of grubs and worms. Google each species. Consider the damage you have permitted to go on inside your horse.


Many of your points make sense, but this is just silly. Put some cooked food out for 24 hours and then check it for grubs and worms - duh, they will come from flies and bugs, not from the cooked food. That proves nothing. The internal parasites will exist as eggs that will hatch in the host after ingestion, not in the feces. That statement really shows a basic ignorance of the whole situation and devalues anything you have to say (even the things that are good).


----------



## barnbilder

basketti said:


> Nope, didn't miss your point at all. You are just trying to change it because you were wrong. Pretty easy to see.



Because you can't back up any claims that you have you are now trying to belittle someone with a different opinion than you. I was there. At the time, we did not have clearance to use clove oil, as a government agency, because clove oil was not approved for use as a drug.

Your constant attack on people's credibility, or knowledge shows that you don't have either on your side. This whole argument is moot, because following your logic, nobody should have horses anyway. Cars and ATVs are much more effective means of transportation.

Last time I checked, horses were property though, anybody that wants to can have one, and they can take care of it in whatever manner works for them.


----------



## Lisa in WA

barnbilder said:


> Because you can't back up any claims that you have you are now trying to belittle someone with a different opinion than you. I was there. At the time, we did not have clearance to use clove oil, as a government agency, because clove oil was not approved for use as a drug.
> 
> Your constant attack on people's credibility, or knowledge shows that you don't have either on your side. This whole argument is moot, because following your logic, nobody should have horses anyway. Cars and ATVs are much more effective means of transportation.
> 
> Last time I checked, horses were property though, anybody that wants to can have one, and they can take care of it in whatever manner works for them.


Uh-huh. What logic is that from me that says people shouldn't have horses? Now you're just floundering and attacking anything you can and making no sense at all. And yep...people can have horses and neglect them because they think they know better than vets and scientists, but dont expect the knowledgeable owners to not call them on it when they advise other people about it.

Are you anti-vaccine too?


----------



## arabian knight

They should also TAKE CARE of them as best to their ability and on the Advice Of Veterinarians. 
Period, End Of Story, End Of Debate~!
And deworming miniature horses and their smallness is NOTHING to be experimenting with UNPROVEN methods of getting rid of worms.~!!!! or even Hearsay wives tail methods.
I bet those same would deworm their dogs with shoving a penny down their throat, or by doing it with tobacco also~! LOL


----------



## barnbilder

haypoint
I worm quite a few animals. The tube paste wormers are convenient and harder for the horse to spit out. But they are expensive said:


> So here you have someone advocating off label use of a drug. Are there any studies supporting the effectiveness of this technique? True, the active ingredient is the same, but there are different adjutants in these products that could effect uptake. Are these adjutants proven safe when administered orally?


----------



## Lisa in WA

barnbilder said:


> So here you have someone advocating off label use of a drug. Are there any studies supporting the effectiveness of this technique? True, the active ingredient is the same, but there are different adjutants in these products that could effect uptake. Are these adjutants proven safe when administered orally?


Psst. Injectable ivermectin is also approved for oral use in horses. 

More flailing around.


----------



## barnbilder

arabian knight said:


> They should also TAKE CARE of them as best to their ability and on the Advice Of Veterinarians.
> Period, End Of Story, End Of Debate~!
> LOL


I know of no law requiring owners of livestock to defer management issues to a veterinarian. In fact, I've seen veterinarians give bad advice and kill stuff. There are good and bad veterinarians. There are vets who embrace herbal and homeopathic treatments. Mine even does acupuncture therapy.

Funny you should mention worming stuff with a penny. While I wouldn't advocate that, copper oxide wire particles are one of my personal favorite methods of parasite control.


----------



## barnbilder

basketti said:


> Psst. Injectable ivermectin is also approved for oral use in horses.
> 
> More flailing around.


My bottle doesn't say you can do that. So you are saying not to follow the label instructions on drugs?


----------



## Lisa in WA

barnbilder said:


> My bottle doesn't say you can do that. So you are saying not to follow the label instructions on drugs?


Only you can make some kind of leap from one statement to the next following your own er..."unique" brand of logic. :happy2:


----------



## hihobaron

Haypoint
RE:
Your Comment:
"How is your breeding horses for parasite resistance coming? Have you located the horses that have this resistance to parasites? Is this a hereditary characteristic? 

It is my uneducated opinion that changing an animal to react differently to parasites is possible, in theory, but highly unlikely and requiring many centuries of selective breeding.

If there is one horse with an actual immunity to all parasites, not that I believe it actually exists, that horse's DNA could be spliced into the DNA of all other horses, making all horses immune to parasites.

To eliminate the use of chemical wormers, protect all horses from the internal devastation caused by parasites, would you favor this alteration of the horse's DNA?"
==========================================

Is what you said NOT also called "Genetic Engineering" GMO ,etc.
How do you get that by the no GMO /Tree Hugger type people.
I have horses and goats and use both chemical and DE in the feed.
My horses were part of a study with the use of DE for a parasite control both internal and "External" (Fly Control around barn, Mange, Lice) 20 years ago.
The Study went on for over a year with my herd, fecal samples each month, done at the University of Wisconsin Veterinarian Collage Ditamaciouse Earth (DE) was fed at 1 TSP twice a day with mash or sweet feed. to keep the inhalation hazard down.
Very low fecal counts, but DE will only get intestinal parasites. it will NOT get blood born parasites like lung worms or blood born larval stage parasites. 
I use a Ivermectian Base paste a couple times of year to get blood born parasites. 
The Above UW Study referenced was "Canceled" when (Pfizer Drug MFG) made a Donation of 2 Million dollars to the UW system Veterinarian School to stop research. 
So testing program for NON-Chemical parasite control was canceled and documentation shredded. 
I have continued to use DE and do my own lab work now still the same results.
I still have 2 of the Original Study Group horses with me 17-18 years old and still working.
So this has been a ongoing private study for that length of time. NO COLIC in that time.
Parasites are one of the major causes of colic/death in horses.
DE also works on fire ants and has other insect uses.
AS in fly control around the barn, it is in the manure of the horses and kills fly's and larva even after going through the horse.
People that visit here comment on the few fly's around.
I do believe in a combination of chemical and natural parasite control. DE dose the job.
Last Comment: I also believe in the fact that all animals including US have a parasite load. ALL immune systems have to deal with the "Challenge" we and our animal can not live in a plastic bubble of a perfect environment. Watch the Movie "Bubble Boy"
The trick is balancing the "Tolerable Parasite Load" to what the body can maintain and "Prosper" with.
Happy Trails
hihobaron and the Troops in South Carolina


----------



## arabian knight

Well I certainly would NOT recommend feeding DIRT to a miniature horse. That is a No Brainer. Does sand colic come to mind??? I have reached in and took out hands full of sand after a horse was put down because of sand colic. Not A Pretty Site~!


----------



## Lisa in WA

In many situations, paste dewormers are only needed twice a year. That's all that I do here in the northwest. There is no mechanism for diatomaceous earth to work internally. 

http://www.doctorramey.com/natural-dewormers/

"6. Diatomaceous earth. Diatomaceous earth is the fossilized remains of diatoms, a type of hard-shelled algae. It typically feels abrasive, and it&#8217;s made up of about 80 &#8211; 90% silica, which is the same chemical that makes up sand. If you really want to dig into diatomaceous earth (pun intended), you can CLICK HERE. 

Et tu, Brute?
Et tu, Brute?
Used in gardens, diatomaceous earth absorbs oils and moisture from the external skeleton of insects, and dries them out, killing them. However, in order to work it has to be dry. Trust me, as someone who has opened up more than a few feet of equine intestines, it&#8217;s not dry inside.

But, heck, if if works externally to kill bugs, you might as well try it internally, right? (NOTE: This is not how logic works.) Undaunted, diatomaceous earth advocates maintain that the particles have spiny edges that piece the parasite&#8217;s outer layer; a soily Brutus taking action against a parasitic Julius Caesar, as it were.

While the idea that eating some pulverized fossil remains may strike some of you as silly on it&#8217;s face (I&#8217;m raising my hand, too), there have been a few studies using diatomaceous earth to try to control parasites. The results have been pretty unanimous. Whether it be goats in North Carolina, cattle and sheep in the UK, or lambs in Iowa, diatomaceous earth just doesn&#8217;t work (CLICK HERE to see research summaries). Good studies haven&#8217;t been done in horses &#8211; it&#8217;s probably not worth the time.


----------



## barnbilder

hihobaron said:


> Haypoint
> RE:
> Your Comment:
> "How is your breeding horses for parasite resistance coming? Have you located the horses that have this resistance to parasites? Is this a hereditary characteristic?
> 
> It is my uneducated opinion that changing an animal to react differently to parasites is possible, in theory, but highly unlikely and requiring many centuries of selective breeding.
> 
> If there is one horse with an actual immunity to all parasites, not that I believe it actually exists, that horse's DNA could be spliced into the DNA of all other horses, making all horses immune to parasites.
> 
> To eliminate the use of chemical wormers, protect all horses from the internal devastation caused by parasites, would you favor this alteration of the horse's DNA?"
> ==========================================
> 
> Is what you said NOT also called "Genetic Engineering" GMO ,etc.
> How do you get that by the no GMO /Tree Hugger type people.
> I have horses and goats and use both chemical and DE in the feed.
> My horses were part of a study with the use of DE for a parasite control both internal and "External" (Fly Control around barn, Mange, Lice) 20 years ago.
> The Study went on for over a year with my herd, fecal samples each month, done at the University of Wisconsin Veterinarian Collage Ditamaciouse Earth (DE) was fed at 1 TSP twice a day with mash or sweet feed. to keep the inhalation hazard down.
> Very low fecal counts, but DE will only get intestinal parasites. it will NOT get blood born parasites like lung worms or blood born larval stage parasites.
> I use a Ivermectian Base paste a couple times of year to get blood born parasites.
> The Above UW Study referenced was "Canceled" when (Pfizer Drug MFG) made a Donation of 2 Million dollars to the UW system Veterinarian School to stop research.
> So testing program for NON-Chemical parasite control was canceled and documentation shredded.
> I have continued to use DE and do my own lab work now still the same results.
> I still have 2 of the Original Study Group horses with me 17-18 years old and still working.
> So this has been a ongoing private study for that length of time. NO COLIC in that time.
> Parasites are one of the major causes of colic/death in horses.
> DE also works on fire ants and has other insect uses.
> AS in fly control around the barn, it is in the manure of the horses and kills fly's and larva even after going through the horse.
> People that visit here comment on the few fly's around.
> I do believe in a combination of chemical and natural parasite control. DE dose the job.
> Last Comment: I also believe in the fact that all animals including US have a parasite load. ALL immune systems have to deal with the "Challenge" we and our animal can not live in a plastic bubble of a perfect environment. Watch the Movie "Bubble Boy"
> The trick is balancing the "Tolerable Parasite Load" to what the body can maintain and "Prosper" with.
> Happy Trails
> hihobaron and the Troops in South Carolina



That was the same fate of the copper oxide wire particle study. They completed the study, and posted the results, and poof, it was gone. I had it bookmarked on my computer. Posted it to someone, and they told me it wouldn't open. I couldn't believe it. That is when I started looking at these things as if there aren't studies proving ineffectiveness, then that probably means it was effective, and they don't want you to know.

I expect the same to happen with the sericea lespedeza studies. If you are interested in alternatives, it pays to read and remember. I have the sericea results printed off. I can remember back when DE was generally accepted to be a wormer. I can remember back when you could worm sheep with copper. I still do. Then they came out with a study on one little group of sheep. Now everybody is terrified of copper. Imagine if they picked the right kennel of border collies to test ivomec on. Nobody would be giving ivomec to a dog.

These companies are putting something in a tube, that is basically a voodoo fungus anyway, except it is synthetic, probably costs three cents and they are selling it for twelve dollars. I can't blame them for using wealth and influence to sway hearts and minds. Doesn't mean I have to buy into it.


----------



## Lisa in WA

barnbilder said:


> That was the same fate of the copper oxide wire particle study. They completed the study, and posted the results, and poof, it was gone. I had it bookmarked on my computer. Posted it to someone, and they told me it wouldn't open. I couldn't believe it. That is when I started looking at these things as if there aren't studies proving ineffectiveness, then that probably means it was effective, and they don't want you to know.
> 
> I expect the same to happen with the sericea lespedeza studies. If you are interested in alternatives, it pays to read and remember. I have the sericea results printed off. I can remember back when DE was generally accepted to be a wormer. I can remember back when you could worm sheep with copper. I still do. Then they came out with a study on one little group of sheep. Now everybody is terrified of copper. Imagine if they picked the right kennel of border collies to test ivomec on. Nobody would be giving ivomec to a dog.
> 
> These companies are putting something in a tube, that is basically a voodoo fungus anyway, except it is synthetic, probably costs three cents and they are selling it for twelve dollars. I can't blame them for using wealth and influence to sway hearts and minds. Doesn't mean I have to buy into it.


And yet...here is an article referencing studies about deworming with copper wire particles. http://www.sheepandgoat.com/#!cu-cowp/c1dvh


So much more.....juicy to believe in conspiracy theories though.


----------



## barnbilder

Wow, they put it back up. I guess they got tired of people cross referencing to the South African studies.


----------



## haypoint

hihobaron said:


> Haypoint
> RE:
> Your Comment:
> "How is your breeding horses for parasite resistance coming? Have you located the horses that have this resistance to parasites? Is this a hereditary characteristic?
> 
> It is my uneducated opinion that changing an animal to react differently to parasites is possible, in theory, but highly unlikely and requiring many centuries of selective breeding.
> 
> If there is one horse with an actual immunity to all parasites, not that I believe it actually exists, that horse's DNA could be spliced into the DNA of all other horses, making all horses immune to parasites.
> 
> To eliminate the use of chemical wormers, protect all horses from the internal devastation caused by parasites, would you favor this alteration of the horse's DNA?"
> ==========================================
> 
> Is what you said NOT also called "Genetic Engineering" GMO ,etc.
> How do you get that by the no GMO /Tree Hugger type people.
> I have horses and goats and use both chemical and DE in the feed.
> My horses were part of a study with the use of DE for a parasite control both internal and "External" (Fly Control around barn, Mange, Lice) 20 years ago.
> The Study went on for over a year with my herd, fecal samples each month, done at the University of Wisconsin Veterinarian Collage Ditamaciouse Earth (DE) was fed at 1 TSP twice a day with mash or sweet feed. to keep the inhalation hazard down.
> Very low fecal counts, but DE will only get intestinal parasites. it will NOT get blood born parasites like lung worms or blood born larval stage parasites.
> I use a Ivermectian Base paste a couple times of year to get blood born parasites.
> The Above UW Study referenced was "Canceled" when (Pfizer Drug MFG) made a Donation of 2 Million dollars to the UW system Veterinarian School to stop research.
> So testing program for NON-Chemical parasite control was canceled and documentation shredded.
> I have continued to use DE and do my own lab work now still the same results.
> I still have 2 of the Original Study Group horses with me 17-18 years old and still working.
> So this has been a ongoing private study for that length of time. NO COLIC in that time.
> Parasites are one of the major causes of colic/death in horses.
> DE also works on fire ants and has other insect uses.
> AS in fly control around the barn, it is in the manure of the horses and kills fly's and larva even after going through the horse.
> People that visit here comment on the few fly's around.
> I do believe in a combination of chemical and natural parasite control. DE dose the job.
> Last Comment: I also believe in the fact that all animals including US have a parasite load. ALL immune systems have to deal with the "Challenge" we and our animal can not live in a plastic bubble of a perfect environment. Watch the Movie "Bubble Boy"
> The trick is balancing the "Tolerable Parasite Load" to what the body can maintain and "Prosper" with.
> Happy Trails
> hihobaron and the Troops in South Carolina


Glad you caught the inference to GMO. I was afraid it slipped by, unnoticed. The fear of GMO does present some paradoxes. Often GMO reduces the use of chemicals, so which "evil" do you avoid?

I always enjoy hearing another folklore tale about Big Pharma stifling some herbal remedy. 50 years ago it was the Fish carburetor that gave car's 100 miles per gallon but the patent was bought up by Big Oil. Thanks for the chuckle. If you have a source for that, I'd like to learn more.

Glad you don't believe that non-digestible sand (DE) doesn't attack parasites in the blood stream. 

But if you believe in DE as a wormer, thank goodness that you combine it with actual effective chemical wormers. But it does make the effectiveness of DE difficult to quantify.


----------



## DisasterCupcake

hihobaron said:


> Haypoint
> RE:
> Your Comment:
> "How is your breeding horses for parasite resistance coming? Have you located the horses that have this resistance to parasites? Is this a hereditary characteristic?
> 
> It is my uneducated opinion that changing an animal to react differently to parasites is possible, in theory, but highly unlikely and requiring many centuries of selective breeding.
> 
> If there is one horse with an actual immunity to all parasites, not that I believe it actually exists, that horse's DNA could be spliced into the DNA of all other horses, making all horses immune to parasites.
> 
> To eliminate the use of chemical wormers, protect all horses from the internal devastation caused by parasites, would you favor this alteration of the horse's DNA?"
> ==========================================
> 
> Is what you said NOT also called "Genetic Engineering" GMO ,etc.
> How do you get that by the no GMO /Tree Hugger type people.
> I have horses and goats and use both chemical and DE in the feed.
> My horses were part of a study with the use of DE for a parasite control both internal and "External" (Fly Control around barn, Mange, Lice) 20 years ago.
> The Study went on for over a year with my herd, fecal samples each month, done at the University of Wisconsin Veterinarian Collage Ditamaciouse Earth (DE) was fed at 1 TSP twice a day with mash or sweet feed. to keep the inhalation hazard down.
> Very low fecal counts, but DE will only get intestinal parasites. it will NOT get blood born parasites like lung worms or blood born larval stage parasites.
> I use a Ivermectian Base paste a couple times of year to get blood born parasites.
> The Above UW Study referenced was "Canceled" when (Pfizer Drug MFG) made a Donation of 2 Million dollars to the UW system Veterinarian School to stop research.
> So testing program for NON-Chemical parasite control was canceled and documentation shredded.
> I have continued to use DE and do my own lab work now still the same results.
> I still have 2 of the Original Study Group horses with me 17-18 years old and still working.
> So this has been a ongoing private study for that length of time. NO COLIC in that time.
> Parasites are one of the major causes of colic/death in horses.
> DE also works on fire ants and has other insect uses.
> AS in fly control around the barn, it is in the manure of the horses and kills fly's and larva even after going through the horse.
> People that visit here comment on the few fly's around.
> I do believe in a combination of chemical and natural parasite control. DE dose the job.
> Last Comment: I also believe in the fact that all animals including US have a parasite load. ALL immune systems have to deal with the "Challenge" we and our animal can not live in a plastic bubble of a perfect environment. Watch the Movie "Bubble Boy"
> The trick is balancing the "Tolerable Parasite Load" to what the body can maintain and "Prosper" with.
> Happy Trails
> hihobaron and the Troops in South Carolina


Great info. 

I would postulate that, due to it's drying properties, DE can reduce average manure moisture content. While this might not make a significant difference in very humid or wet climates, it could theorethically help to reduce numbers of shed parasite eggs from hatching and/or making it to L3 larval infective stage. It may also inhibit motility of L3 stage larvea from manure to the forage base. 

In other studies, the high available silicon content of DE was shown to improve crop yeilds, and reduce crop pest losses. Adding fertilizer to my pastures hasn't hurt yet.

I agree that DE is not a complete control plan for parasites, but I do think that it has a very useful place in juncture with other protocols. I personally have seen significant improvement of parasite loads in my own horses after starting DE, without changing anything else. I've never had a horse colic, either. I feed it in a soaked alfalfa and oats, so there is no dry inhalation risk.


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## Lisa in WA

DisasterCupcake said:


> Great info.
> 
> I would postulate that, due to it's drying properties, DE can reduce average manure moisture content. While this might not make a significant difference in very humid or wet climates, it could theorethically help to reduce numbers of shed parasite eggs from hatching and/or making it to L3 larval infective stage. It may also inhibit motility of L3 stage larvea from manure to the forage base.
> 
> In other studies, the high available silicon content of DE was shown to improve crop yeilds, and reduce crop pest losses. Adding fertilizer to my pastures hasn't hurt yet.
> 
> I agree that DE is not a complete control plan for parasites, but I do think that it has a very useful place in juncture with other protocols. I personally have seen significant improvement of parasite loads in my own horses after starting DE, without changing anything else. I've never had a horse colic, either. I feed it in a soaked alfalfa and oats, so there is no dry inhalation risk.


Links to the studies you're referencing?


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## haypoint

DisasterCupcake said:


> Great info.
> 
> I would postulate that, due to it's drying properties, DE can reduce average manure moisture content. While this might not make a significant difference in very humid or wet climates, it could theorethically help to reduce numbers of shed parasite eggs from hatching and/or making it to L3 larval infective stage. It may also inhibit motility of L3 stage larvea from manure to the forage base.
> 
> In other studies, the high available silicon content of DE was shown to improve crop yeilds, and reduce crop pest losses. Adding fertilizer to my pastures hasn't hurt yet.
> 
> I agree that DE is not a complete control plan for parasites, but I do think that it has a very useful place in juncture with other protocols. I personally have seen significant improvement of parasite loads in my own horses after starting DE, without changing anything else. I've never had a horse colic, either. I feed it in a soaked alfalfa and oats, so there is no dry inhalation risk.


Drying properties? Do you think a handful of DE in each pocket of my jeans would cut dryer time? Explain how DE, after it slides out the rear of a horse, reduces the manure pile moisture content?

I agree, adding fertilizer to my pastures hasn't hurt yet, either. 

When you say you have seen significant improvement in parasite loads, you mean a reduction of parasites. Right?

Just as stones have a useful place in producing Stone Soup, in conjunction with cubed potatoes, diced carrots, chopped onions, diced beef roast and minced garlic, DE makes a similar contribution to the effectiveness of ivermevtin. If you are unfamiliar with Stone Soup, google it.


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## barnbilder

Here is a link that shows some studies on DE effects on fly populations in poultry litter and as internal and external parasite control in poultry.

http://www.absorbentproductsltd.com/benefits-of-diatomaceous-earth-in-animal-feed.html

Saying that DE is just sand based on silica content is like saying that a hammer and pair of scissors are the same based on their iron content.


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## DisasterCupcake

https://www.researchgate.net/public...on_of_rice_Sajal_Pati_Biplab_Pal_and_GC_Hazra

DE used as silica fertilizer, increases yeild and reduces pests.


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## Heritagefarm

I've used DE with good results in the past with good results. Those who are adamantly opposed to any sort of practice closely approaching "natural" will of course bash it. It must be genetic or something, because I can't think of any other reason to get so snarky about it.


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## hihobaron

Heritagefarm
Hello
RE: DE
I agree with you about the effects of DE.
Been using it for over 20 years in horses and now goats.
It works as a internal parasite control as well as external fly control. 
I will still dose critters here a couple times a year with a chemical de-wormer .
Especially the Pack Goats (Lung Worm)
I worked with a University program to prove the effectiveness of DE in horses a long time ago. Full Trial Study. We were just getting ready to publish findings and Phizer came in and offered a 5 Million grant to the University BUT the conditions were that several "Study" programs were to canceled and not published. DE was one of them.
The University was a Major Vet School.
Of course the University took the money and closed down our program. 
============================
Note: 
I only use strait DE. Pool filter Grade
It dose not absorb any mosture in the gut.
Red Lake Earth Brand has a good percentage of Bentionit Clay in it.
You know what else they use Bentionit for?
Well Drilling Mud to keep the well bore open till they can get a casing put in.
Don't know about you but I don't want that in my critters guts to make a plug.
Had a friend that used some Red Lake Earth in her chickens dusting spot (mites)
She HAD white chickens, they liked it but turned "PINK"
Happy Trails
hihobaron and the critters in SC


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## Irish Pixie

Heritagefarm said:


> I've used DE with good results in the past with good results. Those who are adamantly opposed to any sort of practice closely approaching "natural" will of course bash it. It must be genetic or something, because I can't think of any other reason to get so snarky about it.


I have never read anything that proves that DE used internally has any type of anthelmintic properties. Do you have a link?

DE works well in the garden and as a dust for chickens but becomes inert in a wet environment.


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## Heritagefarm

Inconclusive. This study provides a look at the efficacy of DE as a wormer. 

http://scholar.googleusercontent.co.../+diatomaceous+earth+wormer&hl=en&as_sdt=0,26 

It was as I said, inconclusive but did not rule it out.


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## Irish Pixie

Heritagefarm said:


> Inconclusive. This study provides a look at the efficacy of DE as a wormer.
> 
> http://scholar.googleusercontent.co.../+diatomaceous+earth+wormer&hl=en&as_sdt=0,26
> 
> It was as I said, inconclusive but did not rule it out.


It's not proven to work, correct? In my experience (45+ years with horses) deworming is one of the most important aspects of horse care so I will continue to use what is proven to work.


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## Heritagefarm

Irish Pixie said:


> *It's not proven to work, correct*? In my experience (45+ years with horses) deworming is one of the most important aspects of horse care so I will continue to use what is proven to work.


where did you get that? If someone in the scientific community interpreted "inconclusive" as "not proven to work," they'd be kicked out.


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## Irish Pixie

Heritagefarm said:


> where did you get that? If someone in the scientific community interpreted "inconclusive" as "not proven to work," they'd be kicked out.


Ok. Inconcusive is not sufficient proof for me to label something as proven to work. Better? I'm pro horse health, so I will use proven to work dewormers on my stock. 

DE has not been proven to work internally as an anthelmintic.


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## Agriculture

Heritagefarm said:


> where did you get that? If someone in the scientific community interpreted "inconclusive" as "not proven to work," they'd be kicked out.


May be, but who in the scientific community considers "inconclusive" to mean "might work", "probably works" or "does work"? You're grasping as straws like the rest of the DE mongers, in the futile attempt to have your medieval belief accepted. DE only works in the minds of those who wish it so.


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## Heritagefarm

Irish Pixie said:


> Ok. Inconcusive is not sufficient proof for me to label something as proven to work. Better? I'm pro horse health, so I will use proven to work dewormers on my stock.
> 
> DE has not been proven to work internally as an anthelmintic.


That's probably a good idea, seeing as horses aren't exactly renowned for superior health. 



Agriculture said:


> May be, but who in the scientific community considers "inconclusive" to mean "might work", "probably works" or "does work"? You're grasping as straws like the rest of the DE mongers, in the futile attempt to have your medieval belief accepted. DE only works in the minds of those who wish it so.


Medieval beliefs? DE mongers? Where do you get this? You and your ilk are the reason I wanted an organics forum - not to stall debate but to prevent people like you from wading in and stirring up trouble with your "modern beliefs superiority complex." Ha.


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## Agriculture

Primitive beliefs is more accurate. I know exactly why you wanted a separate safe space, 
and it has everything to do with stifling debate, except that which you believe.

Yes, those pesky modern beliefs really get in the way of one's dreams. The world is not flat, unicorns don't exist, modern medicine works, DE doesn't. Deal with it.


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## barnbilder

If you want to worm your livestock effectively, a microscope and some McMaster slides are a pretty handy investment. Because, the "proven to work" anthelmintics don't always work all that good.


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## Heritagefarm

Agriculture said:


> Primitive beliefs is more accurate. I know exactly why you wanted a separate safe space,
> and it has everything to do with stifling debate, except that which you believe.
> 
> Yes, those pesky modern beliefs really get in the way of one's dreams. The world is not flat, unicorns don't exist, modern medicine works, DE doesn't. Deal with it.


I don't have anything to deal with aside from your bad attitude. It's possible to have a debate where facts and information are exchanged. You don't debate - you blundgeon. Go stuff it.


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## Agriculture

The only debate about the effectiveness of DE would be like the debate about the color of the sky, so if you like to do that, there is only an exchange of facts and accurate information in one direction. Keep thinking otherwise, you poor dear.


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## Heritagefarm

Agriculture said:


> The only debate about the effectiveness of DE would be like the debate about the color of the sky, so if you like to do that, there is only an exchange of facts and accurate information in one direction. Keep thinking otherwise, you poor dear.


You don't even know my beliefs on the matter, you poor dear. You believe simply because you can label something as "medieval" that it makes it inferior. As in the case of DE, it has to be mined, so good luck doing that with "medieval" technology. Andy FYI, I enjoy primitive methods of doing things sometimes. 

Now, if you actually bothered to think, "maybe there's something I can learn here," you might have asked me, in which I would tell you I just use chemical wormers because DE hasn't been shown to be very effective by the studies I have read. See? I can change my mind when presented with facts. You on the other hand should probably meander back to high school.


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## Agriculture

So you've finally realized that DE doesn't work, yet you're upset that I say it? Well isn't that brilliant. Same with your mining claim. Ever hear of iron? How about gold?


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## Heritagefarm

Agriculture said:


> So you've finally realized that DE doesn't work, yet you're upset that I say it? Well isn't that brilliant. Same with your mining claim. Ever hear of iron? How about gold?


The only thing I'm irritated by is your pompous, condescending, egotistical stuck-up manner. Oh, and incase you hadn't noticed, mining is far easier with machinery. Works much better than sending the peasants into the shafts with pick axes, but I'm sure with your superior brain power, you already knew that. Further, DE wasn't discovered until the early 1800s, so your claim of "medieval methods" is egregiously false. Oh, and just to help you along, "egregiously" means "shockingly bad."


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## aoconnor1

Heritagefarm, you would do well to ignore Agricuture. He comes along and is rude to a lot of us, it isn't just you. I mostly quit posting here because of him. Too many times an honest conversation has turned into an attack because he is so superior to us and condescending, it becomes a war of words. Leave it be, you are not going to win against a big mouth with an even bigger ego.


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## haypoint

If I were to openly attack a member, the way Heritagefarm or Aoconner1 have just done, I would be scolded by the moderator and the thread locked. 

I understand you want to believe. Hard to accept that all the money and effort using DE has been wasted. 

Who insulted who first is often difficult to determine and rationalization is a powerful human emotion. You may want to scold someone that gave an answer that hurt your feelings, but it is often more effective to ignore them.

Cinnamon, garlic, tobacco and DE are not effective internal wormers, no matter what sign/phase of the moon you applied them.


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## Heritagefarm

haypoint said:


> If I were to openly attack a member, the way Heritagefarm or Aoconner1 have just done, I would be scolded by the moderator and the thread locked.
> 
> I understand you want to believe. Hard to accept that all the money and effort using DE has been wasted.
> 
> Who insulted who first is often difficult to determine and rationalization is a powerful human emotion. You may want to scold someone that gave an answer that hurt your feelings, but it is often more effective to ignore them.
> 
> Cinnamon, garlic, tobacco and DE are not effective internal wormers, no matter what sign/phase of the moon you applied them.


Please read the posts... Agriculture was the first to use an ad homenem attack. Also I'm not supporting g DE as a wormer any further due to the lack of evidence. That doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't work, but that there's no evidence to back it up.


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## wr

It's interesting that members who have never participated or shown any interest in horses claim to be experts on DE with no understanding of how delicate a horse's system really is. 

AK touched on the sand impaction issue but he failed to mention that there are studies indicating that horses treated with DE have shown high enough incidents of colic that it warrants further research. 

There was also a time when horses were wormed with chewing tobacco too but that hasn't really stood the test of time either but ultimately, if you're going to declare something unproven to be a solid success, it might be a good idea to at least back it up with before and after fecal samples. 

As a rule, I prefer not to close threads and I'm more than open to discussion but it would be helpful when someone drops by to discuss something that relates to horses, they may have either some knowledge of horses or a desire to learn about them.


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## aoconnor1

haypoint said:


> If I were to openly attack a member, the way Heritagefarm or Aoconner1 have just done, I would be scolded by the moderator and the thread locked.
> 
> I understand you want to believe. Hard to accept that all the money and effort using DE has been wasted.
> 
> Who insulted who first is often difficult to determine and rationalization is a powerful human emotion. You may want to scold someone that gave an answer that hurt your feelings, but it is often more effective to ignore them.
> 
> Cinnamon, garlic, tobacco and DE are not effective internal wormers, no matter what sign/phase of the moon you applied them.


I merely suggested that heritagefarm ignore Agriculture, that person stirs up more trouble sometimes....

As for DE, I don't use it with my horses or anything else except to spread around my chicken coop for my birds to dust bathe in.

I have never thought to use it for worming horses, there are proven products out there that I use that work, so I stick with vet recommendations and products I know will get the job done.


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## haypoint

It was my understanding that pointing out, by name, an individual as a jerk was against the rules, as well as name calling. Is it just me or does this sound like the personal attacks you hate so much? 
"your pompous, condescending, egotistical stuck-up manner"
"He comes along and is rude to a lot of us, it isn't just you. I mostly quit posting here because of him. Too many times an honest conversation has turned into an attack because he is so superior to us and condescending, it becomes a war of words. Leave it be, you are not going to win against a big mouth with an even bigger ego."
I'm sure many of us have been tempted to tell some pea brained idiot just what a fool they are, but it is best to just ignore them. Perhaps this open exchange can serve the purpose of demonstrating the lack of social discourse exists on both sides of this discussion.


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## wr

aoconnor1 said:


> I merely suggested that heritagefarm ignore Agriculture, that person stirs up more trouble sometimes....
> 
> As for DE, I don't use it with my horses or anything else except to spread around my chicken coop for my birds to dust bathe in.
> 
> I have never thought to use it for worming horses, there are proven products out there that I use that work, so I stick with vet recommendations and products I know will get the job done.


It might be a good idea to express your concerns to Tiempo or myself rather than taking it upon yourself to publicly insult other members.


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## Alder

barnbilder said:


> If you want to worm your livestock effectively, a microscope and some McMaster slides are a pretty handy investment. Because, the "proven to work" anthelmintics don't always work all that good.


This is how anybody can check whether their worming program works. Simple microscopes are cheap on Ebay, and there are youtubes I'm sure showing how to set up a fecal floatation test for parasite eggs.

Me? I'll trust my vet's experience (and my own since I do fecal checks) and keep using and rotating the commercial wormers.


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## haypoint

Alder said:


> This is how anybody can check whether their worming program works. Simple microscopes are cheap on Ebay, and there are youtubes I'm sure showing how to set up a fecal floatation test for parasite eggs.
> 
> Me? I'll trust my vet's experience (and my own since I do fecal checks) and keep using and rotating the commercial wormers.


Fecal will spot eggs IF the animal is passing eggs at that moment. What about the worms chewing on the liver, carving paths through the heart or doing laps in the lungs? Their eggs or larva won't be passed in a fecal.

Good to use the judgment of a Vet and rotate chemicals.


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## Heritagefarm

haypoint said:


> It was my understanding that pointing out, by name, an individual as a jerk was against the rules, as well as name calling. Is it just me or does this sound like the personal attacks you hate so much?
> "your pompous, condescending, egotistical stuck-up manner"
> "He comes along and is rude to a lot of us, it isn't just you. I mostly quit posting here because of him. Too many times an honest conversation has turned into an attack because he is so superior to us and condescending, it becomes a war of words. Leave it be, you are not going to win against a big mouth with an even bigger ego."
> I'm sure many of us have been tempted to tell some pea brained idiot just what a fool they are, but it is best to just ignore them. Perhaps this open exchange can serve the purpose of demonstrating the lack of social discourse exists on both sides of this discussion.


Since when is it insulting to call someone out on their rudeness? I admit my post wasn't exactly diplomatic. Maybe I'm tired of the conventional farmers always attacking organic and alternative methods regardless of whether or not they actually work. It's called being open minded.


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## haypoint

Heritagefarm said:


> Since when is it insulting to call someone out on their rudeness? I admit my post wasn't exactly diplomatic. Maybe I'm tired of the conventional farmers always attacking organic and alternative methods regardless of whether or not they actually work. It's called being open minded.


 Somehow you seem to have rationalized that it is acceptable to publicly name call someone that was rude.
When a method, action or process is folly, pointing out the facts that it is folly isnât always an attack. Calling factual information that runs against your wishful thinking an attack is called being closed minded.
In this free country, you can be closed minded if you chose to be. You can strongly desire that the facts presented are wrong. 
Perhaps when confronted with facts that counter beliefs that you hold dear, it might be best to ignore/shut up, rather than resort to name calling. 
DE does nothing good for horses and can do harm. There are no effective herbal wormers. Horses suffer injury and death from internal parasites. As loving, caring caretakers of these beautiful creatures, regular treatment with chemical wormers is necessary. 
Conventional farmers are not stupid and do not use chemicals because they hate the soil. There are many organic and conventional farming methods that run parallel. You may object to a farmerâs use of chemical weed killer. The farmer may object to organic farmingâs repeated cultivation that always increases erosion of the top soil. But they arenât attacks.


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## Alder

haypoint said:


> Fecal will spot eggs IF the animal is passing eggs at that moment. What about the worms chewing on the liver, carving paths through the heart or doing laps in the lungs? Their eggs or larva won't be passed in a fecal.
> 
> Good to use the judgment of a Vet and rotate chemicals.


That's why you look at fecals every 8 weeks. Also, you won't catch tapes in a fecal flotation. In this day and age (and if you have wild rabbits, hares or mice on the property), just assume the horses are fighting tapes and worm for them 2x/year.


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## Heritagefarm

haypoint said:


> Somehow you seem to have rationalized that it is acceptable to publicly name call someone that was rude.
> When a method, action or process is folly, pointing out the facts that it is folly isnât always an attack. Calling factual information that runs against your wishful thinking an attack is called being closed minded.
> In this free country, you can be closed minded if you chose to be. You can strongly desire that the facts presented are wrong.
> Perhaps when confronted with facts that counter beliefs that you hold dear, it might be best to ignore/shut up, rather than resort to name calling.
> DE does nothing good for horses and can do harm. There are no effective herbal wormers. Horses suffer injury and death from internal parasites. As loving, caring caretakers of these beautiful creatures, regular treatment with chemical wormers is necessary.
> Conventional farmers are not stupid and do not use chemicals because they hate the soil. There are many organic and conventional farming methods that run parallel. You may object to a farmerâs use of chemical weed killer. The farmer may object to organic farmingâs repeated cultivation that always increases erosion of the top soil. But they arenât attacks.


Perhaps you need to review some of the evidence...



Agriculture said:


> May be, but who in the scientific community considers "inconclusive" to mean "might work", "probably works" or "does work"? *You're grasping as straws like the rest of the DE mongers, in the futile attempt to have your medieval belief accepted.* DE only works in the minds of those who wish it so.


Until that point, I had not called anyone out in a personal attack. So, I realize pointing fingers is rather childish, but I'm inclined to defend myself against the apparent allegations that I started this. As you can see, "You... DE mongers....medieval beliefs," is actually pretty insulting. My attempt to come up with a defense for a natural worming method was called primitive and trolling, essentially. Maybe you take this stuff lying down - actually I know you don't, so really wants your point? Oh, and you seemed to have missed the part, several times now, where I admit I can't find [conclusive] evidence to back up DE.


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## haypoint

Heritagefarm said:


> Perhaps you need to review some of the evidence...
> 
> 
> 
> Until that point, I had not called anyone out in a personal attack. So, I realize pointing fingers is rather childish, but I'm inclined to defend myself against the apparent allegations that I started this. As you can see, "You... DE mongers....medieval beliefs," is actually pretty insulting. My attempt to come up with a defense for a natural worming method was called primitive and trolling, essentially. Maybe you take this stuff lying down - actually I know you don't, so really wants your point? Oh, and you seemed to have missed the part, several times now, where I admit I can't find [conclusive] evidence to back up DE.


If I admit that I can not find conclusive evidence that the earth is flat, that is different from admitting the earth is round. That I can't find conclusive proof infers that I may still be right, just unable to prove it.

I don't demand a public admission from you of being wrong about DE. 

I cannot speak for Agriculture, but perhaps it was the tenacious grip on mythical beliefs that provoked his insulting remarks towards that group, that you apparently hold membership? 

If you like heritage varieties of tomatoes and I like Romas, we can discuss our likes and dislikes. But if I start going on about the flat earth, there is a good chance someone will tire of my nonsense and accuse me of being a "Flat Earther" and holding on to outdated beliefs.

I love my horses. Horses have been a big part of my life for most of my somewhat long adult life. I've seen the ravages of internal parasites. To ignore comments that might lead others to unknowingly leave their horses unprotected from these preventable attacks is, in my mind, sinful.


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## aoconnor1

wr said:


> It might be a good idea to express your concerns to Tiempo or myself rather than taking it upon yourself to publicly insult other members.


I actually pm'd you before I posted. Never heard back.


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## wr

aoconnor1 said:


> I actually pm'd you before I posted. Never heard back.


That's odd, there is nothing in my inbox.


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## aoconnor1

wr said:


> That's odd, there is nothing in my inbox.


I checked again this morning to make sure it was sent and it was. I'm sorry wr, I will re-send it.


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## Heritagefarm

haypoint said:


> If I admit that I can not find conclusive evidence that the earth is flat, that is different from admitting the earth is round. That I can't find conclusive proof infers that I may still be right, just unable to prove it.
> 
> I don't demand a public admission from you of being wrong about DE.
> 
> I cannot speak for Agriculture, but perhaps it was the tenacious grip on mythical beliefs that provoked his insulting remarks towards that group, that you apparently hold membership?
> 
> If you like heritage varieties of tomatoes and I like Romas, we can discuss our likes and dislikes. But if I start going on about the flat earth, there is a good chance someone will tire of my nonsense and accuse me of being a "Flat Earther" and holding on to outdated beliefs.
> 
> I love my horses. Horses have been a big part of my life for most of my somewhat long adult life. I've seen the ravages of internal parasites. To ignore comments that might lead others to unknowingly leave their horses unprotected from these preventable attacks is, in my mind, sinful.


Seriously man? You're comparing organics and growing things naturally to beliving the earth is flat? Get real! I'm sick of tired of the conventional farmers who think they have the tall and mighty horse in the room. Also you keep misconstruing my words, most likely on purpose, because I'm not advocating using DE any longer, but you keep claiming I am doing so, which makes you a liar. Didn't they teach people not to lie in kindergarten?


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## haypoint

Heritagefarm said:


> Seriously man? You're comparing organics and growing things naturally to beliving the earth is flat? Get real! I'm sick of tired of the conventional farmers who think they have the tall and mighty horse in the room. Also you keep misconstruing my words, most likely on purpose, because I'm not advocating using DE any longer, but you keep claiming I am doing so, which makes you a liar. Didn't they teach people not to lie in kindergarten?


Yea, I'm serious. But, no I'm not comparing organics and growing things naturally with believing the earth is flat. The topic was DE as a wormer and I was comparing that wives tail (no offence to the wonderful wives out there) to those that believe the earth was flat. Sorry if that threw you off track. 

You say that I compared organics with believing the earth was flat, when I clearly did not. Well, bless your heart.

Your post, #94, "I've used DE with good results in the past with good results." then call me a liar for claiming you believe DE to work as a wormer. Well, pumpkin, bless your heart again.

By "not advocating DE as a wormer any longer", did you mean since post #94, two weeks ago?


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## Heritagefarm

haypoint said:


> Yea, I'm serious. But, no I'm not comparing organics and growing things naturally with believing the earth is flat. The topic was DE as a wormer and I was comparing that wives tail (no offence to the wonderful wives out there) to those that believe the earth was flat. Sorry if that threw you off track.
> You say that I compared organics with believing the earth was flat, when I clearly did not. Well, bless your heart.


I might offer you a blessing, but I'm rather inclined with wish you a dreadful evening.


----------

