# Digging your own basement? ($$ rant, too!)



## cc-rider (Jul 29, 2003)

I mean....how hard can it really be?? I had quotes of anywhere from $9300-12500 to dig and pour a 24'x24' basement 8' high. 

I've got clay soil. No rocks within 8 foot of the surface. No trees. I can rent a backhoe for $179 a day. 

It seems like if I dug a hole, leveled off the bottom, put drainage tile around the outside and hooked it to my "curtain drain" that goes to the storm drain at the road, dumped stone in, dumped cement in, and then dry-stacked a basement wall and then parged it..... wouldn't that work??

Am I too simplistic?? 

I know my water table is high. When I dug the footers for the pole barn, they filled with water. So I guess that means I'd be pumping the basement out until I got it built and tarped. 

Do I NEED a sump pump???? Seems silly to dig a hole to attract water, and then pump it back out. Can't you just make the basement waterproof?? 

I'm just frustrated. If I wanted to borrow the money for a $150K home, I'd be just fine, but since I want to borrow $10K for someone to build a basement, and another $15K for the shell to be erected.... I can't do that. No one loans money for something like that. You aren't allowed to be your own general contractor.....or builder (even worse!). So if I do it as I can afford....that means building my own basement, and framing walls myself. 

Chris
NW Ohio


----------



## Triffin (Apr 20, 2005)

*
I know my water table is high. When I dug the footers for the pole barn, they filled with water
*

I wouldn't go with a basement at all if the above is your case ..
A 'wet' basement is useless ..

Triff ..


----------



## brosil (Dec 15, 2003)

One of my friends is a builder and was stuck with a site that had a quicksand-like soil. He cast a solid concrete basement and lowered it into the waterfilled hole. He built the house on top of that and the house "floats" there quite nicely. The basement is dry. It should be noted that he'd been building houses for about 40 years at that point.


----------



## Jim S. (Apr 22, 2004)

Uh....Chris...could it maybe be that BECAUSE your water table is so high, THAT is why the estimates are so high? Those contractors know what it will take, believe me. 

No, you can't just dig a hole in the ground in a high water table area and dry stack a basement with a drain field and that is that. In my area, we can't have basements at all cuz of the high water table. Yet a guy did put one in...and he PAID THROUGH THE NOSE for it, too. You have to account for water pressure against the outer walls, and added drainage (pumps), and underfloor hydraulic pressures, etc. But he had to have a basement, so...

My advice is, take your money and add a second story or more SF to the house, and build over a crawlspace. Sure, you could do a basement even with a high water table. But remember the old adage -- anything is possible, just apply money. It's a matter of getting best return on your investment. $10 grand can add a lot of SF to a house.


----------



## Selena (Jun 25, 2005)

Cost of cement keeps increasing - demand from China ain't helping us at all. And depending on your state, insurance costs (liability, equipment, and WC) is not cheap for those in physical trades. All excavators are not created equal and if you are hiring your cement work, you might be best to use the excavator the cement guy recommends. He/she knows first hand how good of a job.


----------



## Farmerwilly2 (Oct 14, 2006)

I'd need more information to tell you if the quote was a good one, you gave dimentions. What about materials, type of wall, backfilling, floor slab, ect. You make no mention of that.
Now, not wanting to poke you in the eye here, but I'm thinking if you need to ask some of these questions about doing this I can understand why a lender would have a problem lending on it. If it was me doing the lending I want to know that I was lending the money to someone who knows what they are doing, that if they defaulted I'd have some way of getting my money back. When a competent builder puts up a house they always have a finished house they can market. Risking money on a 'first time I wanna try it myself and save money' probably doesn't look to promising to them. 
Let me go on and say I'm all for you building your place, it is a good time and nothing feels better than doing it yourself. Give us some more details to work with. Lots of folks on this board have built their place, like to talk about building, and are willing to give advise. Talk to us CC and let us put our heads together. I'll end with saying that technically you can build with a water issue, but is it cost effective to do it? I'd say your site and your budget will determine how you build it. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone building a coffer dam around a site just to build their basement. I'm certain it can be done, but at what cost.


----------



## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

Have you thought of what the costs are? for a 5" floor and 8" walls, you've got around 27 yards of concrete. At $100/yrd, your talking $2700. Add re-bar, re-wire, drain tile, gravel. (I was quoted $89/yard and $120/yard last year)

Excavation isn't cheap.$2000-$4000 isn't unreasonable for the hole in the ground. Thats some fairly expensive equipment they use to dig. Adding more drain tiles? $$$

I don't have prices on concrete work, but a few thousand to cast the footings, walls, and slab is very realistic. I wouldn't be surprised by $4000 for that alone

Add those up, and you're around the low end of what they quoted. If you have multiple quotes (3-5), you probably have a good idea of what the actual cost is for your area.

If you do indeed have a high water table, they also may be charging a nuisance fee (its not a good idea, but if they want to pay me for it...) or just additional engineering costs.

We bought a backhoe just after we purchased our property. It takes longer than you think to move to dirt. My second (third?) project was to excavate for the 40x80 shed. (60x100 flat area) SE corner was 4.5' too high, NW corner was 4' too low. I figured 200-300 yards of dirt to move. It took me 5-6 full days to move it. Granted, the ground was freezing, so It slowed me down some in the mornings, but you get the idea. Your 24x24x8 hole is 170 yards. Its not going to take all that much less time to dig it out. (others chime in to give your estimates, please)

I think you really need to find out what your water table is at the house site. Its my personal opinion that can never get a permanently sealed basement. The floor will crack, the walls will crack if the ground is water-logged. The sump is a very good idea. Its a backup when the water table rises in a very wet year. The goal is to make sure there is never water on the other side of the concrete. Drain tiles are a must.

Even if you go with your method of construction, I would guesstimate at least $4000-$5000 worth of materials, unless you have a great source or salvage. If you do go this route, plan on it taking MUCH longer than you estimate. (Ann'll be rolling her eyes and nodding her head when she reads this. I promise that we'll get lots of stuff done on the shed this weekend... 

I'd suggest looking into non-traditional loan sources, if you have to go the financing route.

Good Luck

Michael


----------



## gregbaka (Apr 4, 2007)

Hi Chris,

Since your house footprint is small (24x24) you may want to consider just using a concrete pier foundation. The concept is most common along the ocean coasts where they they put the homes on very tall wooden piers for hurricane flooding, and that will give you an idea of the strength too. 

But in Ohio that isn't a problem, so you could use short concrete piers or posts (poured in those big cardboard tubes, Sono-tubes?)

Nice part is the cost - equipment wise only an earth auger is needed (can be hired); materials is rebar, tubes, and concrete; labor can be do-it-yourself. You don't even need to bulldoze up your landscaping.

After that you basically build a heavy-duty deck (again do-it-yourself'able) for the shell to be built onto. Maybe you can take out a loan for a "deck" as a property enhancement project.  

You may want to get your hands on some of the old books on designing/building small homes that were written by Alex Wade.

You will want to skirt the perimeter for appearances, to keep the animals from camping underneath, and to keep the plumbing warm.

Hope this opens some new possibilities,

Greg in MO


----------



## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

gregbaka said:


> Since your house footprint is small (24x24) you may want to consider just using a concrete pier foundation. The concept is most common along the ocean coasts where they they put the homes on very tall wooden piers for hurricane flooding, and that will give you an idea of the strength too.
> Greg in MO


This brings up another idea... post frame house. You've build a pole barn, so use the same method to build a house. You can have either single or 2 story. Use SIP construction instead of sheet metal, and it will look like regular construction once its done as well.

Do you have to have a basement, or is it just that in the northern half of the US most of us have them? (I'm fond of them. If you're going 42" down for frost, might as well go 86")

Michael


----------



## moopups (May 12, 2002)

Have you considered just jacking up the structure with a coordinated jacking system, like house movers use? Once it is high enough it would be a simple matter to pour a footer, then a slab, then install concrete blocks, and eventually lower the structure back down on to the additional space.

Of course there would need to be vertical supports added within the new space, all depending on the framing members of the structure. Contact your most local house movers about their cost to do this, via their equipment. This would cure the moisture problem completely.


----------



## coup (Feb 28, 2007)

what about a zero interest credit card? what time of year was the water up in the pole building holes.......lot of recent rain...... ask lots of questions from people that won't benefit from it...


----------



## hillsidedigger (Sep 19, 2006)

I've been digging a basement, during occasional spare time, under our existing house. Its a big job with a shovel and two 5 gallon buckets. I might live long enough to finish the project.


----------



## RedneckPete (Aug 23, 2004)

cc-rider said:


> I mean....how hard can it really be?? ..... Do I NEED a sump pump???? Seems silly to dig a hole to attract water, and then pump it back out. Can't you just make the basement waterproof??


With no intention of being rude, your questions betray a lack of knowledge that will hurt you should you attempt to undertake this project yourself.

I dig or repair basements almost every day. People without adequate knowledge or expertise that attempt to undertake this kind of work themselves at best waste their time. At worst they make the end product far more expensive for themselves.

Imagine you rent the backhoe, hack out a hole that is poorly shaped (best case scenario) then get cold feet. Your foundation guy will likely walk from the job, or will charge you to fix the hole you messed up. It only gets worse from there.

Pete


----------



## fordson major (Jul 12, 2003)

project near us has water near the surface, just too get rid of the water is a full time double 6 inch pump. special concrete and techneque too keep the hydrostatic pressure from pushing the foundations around or in! when installing the sewer/water mains they encountered many springs . price for hole and concrete sounds ok too me, no sump or tile, priceless!


----------



## moonwolf (Sep 20, 2004)

cc-rider said:


> I mean....how hard can it really be?? I had quotes of anywhere from $9300-12500 to dig and pour a 24'x24' basement 8' high.
> 
> I've got clay soil. No rocks within 8 foot of the surface. No trees. I can rent a backhoe for $179 a day.


The figures quoted you seem within reason for the job. 

In the mid 90's we had a 16 x 28' dug down 10 ft. for a basement. Soil also is clay with no bedrock. The excavator took 3 days to dig that out to a stage for the builder to put in forms and pour the cement. All in all, the project took 2 weeks, and then the framing continued. The cost for the excavation was about 
$2000 total. The builder cost to build up the footings, make a frame for the concrete, all the rebar, waterproofing, weeping tile exterior at ground, sand fill, etc. His charge for that was around $10,000. If they were doing that this season, that would be well over $15,000. 
If, in your case, you could get to the same stage for around $10,000, it might be well worth it in the long run, and they would know what ground conditions they are dealing without guessing.
I figured the work they did for the solid basement was well worth the professional work they did IMHO.


----------



## cc-rider (Jul 29, 2003)

Thanks for all the replys. Let me straighten out a few misconceptions I've caused....

I'm not complaining about the cost of having the basement done, I believe the 10-13K figure is probably pretty good for around here. The issue is, I can't get a bank loan to DO it! That makes my options, (1) do it myself, or (2) don't have a basement.

I asked for your advice before I went back to bank just so I would have some ideas of what I wanted to do. I keep thinking about the post frame idea (building the 30X50 barn wasn't that big of a deal with a rented auger, etc.), but I really like the idea of a basement. The extra storage space, not taxed as high, a place for all the well pump, softner, etc., tornado proof (necessary around here!), making my footprint smaller for tax purposes, etc. I'm hoping to go solar, too, and wanted to use that as thermal mass. (I know.... I can get that using a slab, too). Most of the buildings around here have basements, so I know that water tables can't be too big of an issue. I have a very dry basement, with no sump, in town.

I agree...bankers would be leery of me. A (cough,cough) older, single grandmother attempting to build her own home with her own hands. So far, I've bought the land, had the driveway installed (after I attempted to do it myself and found that it is pretty hard to move 120 tons of stone with a shovel), had the septic installed, electric brought to the property, built the chicken taj mahal, had a well drilled, put up a 30X50 barn (hopefully will finish that this weekend!).... so I'm capable of at least subcontracting out what I know I'm not capable of doing.....and I'm pretty capable of a lot of stuff.

My problem (?), if it is a problem, is that I want to pay cash as I go and have it all paid for and done before I retire. I have a house in town a few miles away from "the farm", so I'm not camping out there, but it'd really be nice to get out there soon because driving out every day to take care of the chickens is a chore! Especially in the winter with a 200 foot driveway (and the tractor in the barn at the END of the driveway). If I wanted to pay to have a nice fancy house constructed by someone around here (Wayne Homes, etc.), I could get a loan without a problem. But I don't WANT something like that, and banks don't loan for construction unless you are a proven contractor. Which I totally understand.....but it doesn't help my situation.

I've thought about the 0 interest credit cards. I hate to do that. Besides, I don't think I can get one for $15K. I've already equity-outted (heehe. is that a word?), my house in town to put in the septic, etc., knowing that I'll sell it once I build. I'll have about $15K profit from that, however, to put towards a bank loan (if I can ever get one!)

Moonpups - there isn't a current structure there. I must have mislead you somewhere. Sorry!

Anyway...thanks for the input. I agree....putting in my own basement would be rather difficult and timeconsuming. It wasn't the cost of having it professionally done that I was objecting to, it was just that doing it myself was turning out to be the only option. Yes, materials to do it myself would still be expensive, but with "no interest for 1 year" offers from all the local Menards, Home Depot, etc., I could get the materials and pay it all off when I sell my current home. 

Again, thanks!


----------



## knight88 (Nov 17, 2006)

CC, Have you considered a minor excavation 2-3 feet, build your full basement, then back fill around it. your house will then be on a small hill and dry. Have seen this done in AZ on flood plain areas and it seems to work well.. Andy


----------



## poorboy (Apr 15, 2006)

Professional back hoe back in 92 dug me a 26x40 in eight hrs time and he had to contend with some rocks. A much larger trackhoe is 100$ an hr here now and can dig a pretty hughmongus basement in 8 hrs...


----------



## fantasymaker (Aug 28, 2005)

As tempting as a basement is if you put a pencil to it I bet single story on a concrete slab is the cheepest per foot. You might even think of building a metal pole building that would be a shop later but could be a home now.


----------

