# 99.999% of people would call me a raving idiotic fool...



## clovis (May 13, 2002)

At the severe risk of being laughed off of this site:

For the past several years, I have been working on an invention. 

It's really not an invention, but an easier and more simple way of doing something.

I am ready to prove or disprove whether my idea is valid, but I need to figure it out on paper.

The idea sounds really, really good in my head, on paper, and with a good engineering-type friend.

I need to figure out how much electricity I can produce from a generator or alternator, or a series of generator/alternators that could power a car from said electricity from batteries. 

In short, my idea is a better, cheaper way of charging a battery(s) that would power a car. 

I am nearly 100% certain that my power generating idea would *not* power a car on its own, and even if it could, it would use more energy than what is on the market today. 

This mode of recharging batteries would only really work if you had time to let the car recharge, maybe while you were at work after you parked the car, or at night while the car was sitting. 

I would also like to figure how long it would take the alt/gen to recharge the batteries to full, running at different RPM speeds of the alt/gen.

How much electricity does it take to move a small car, like a Chevy Cobalt, down the road at, lets say, 45MPH? What about a golf cart at 25 MPH? In essence, how much power does a battery hold? 

While I understand that battery life/capacity/cost/heating issues are the achilles heel of electric cars, I would still like to figure if my idea would work in the remotest possibility.

Are there web site with the formula's needed to figure an idea like this?

I hope I haven't made a fool of myself for asking. In fact, I wanted to ask these same questions over 2 years ago, but felt like a fool for doing so.

*I feel just as foolish tonight.*

In closing, my idea probably won't work well enough to make the idea feasible in a real world application.

At least, I am not trying to invent an engine that runs on water, or create more electricity/energy than what I am putting into it, or get rich, or win a Nobel prize.

Just trying to figure out if my old technology idea would work in the remotest fashion.

I don't mind doing the work and calculations, but I need some direction and input.

If you aren't laughing too loud, not doubled up on the floor howling, or haven't snorted your beverage thru your nose yet, I would love some input and direction.

Clove


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## Windy in Kansas (Jun 16, 2002)

This site might help you as I cannot. http://www.scienceforums.net/


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

If nobody ever acts on crazy ideas much would never be discovered. I try to remind people to be constructive on these bulletn boards. Your idea (whatever it is) might draw criticism but I'm glad you'll risk it trying something and asking here. Good Luck!!


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## 12vman (Feb 17, 2004)

Clovis..

"In short, my idea is a better, cheaper way of charging a battery(s) that would power a car."

*Patent Pending*​
I envision having a pick up coil on the bottom side of a vehicle that could be lowered down to the pavement to get a charge while being parked. (Think half of a transformer in design..) The other half could be built into the parking space. Inductance will work through black top or concrete..

In short.. (no pun intended..) Park the vehicle, lower the pick up coil to the pavement, Throw some money into the parking meter. (Or, flip a switch at home or at work.. Another check deduction.. ) This would engage power to the coils in the ground below the parking space and Vala! Charge while shopping!

Or, strategically placed magnets in the roadway in downhill slopes. Lower the pick up coil just above the roadway and Vala! Charge on the fly!

How ya gonna to run those alt/gen's? (I'll bet that's the secret.. )

I'm not laughin'. You could be on to something! I wouldn't try to reinvent the wheel, though. I'd pick a current electric powered vehicle and work from there..
-Don


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

Don-
You are right...the method of running the alt/gens is the secret.

Again, not sure if it would work...it simply might take more energy to run the alt/gens than what its worth.

That is what I need to figure out.

I guess I should have been more clear of what I need to learn:

How do you figure how much a standard GM alt puts out in electricity at different RPMs?

How long would it take to charge a regular car battery with a standard GM alt to full from dead empty?

How much resistance does a standard GM alt create....or how do I figure how much drag will I put on my contraption. It is like all others, the more load I use, the more energy it will take to run my contraption. 

How much battery power is needed to power a car down the road? How is it figured, and where do I learn what each of the terms mean?


What got me thinking about this...even when gas was 1.50...I read an article about a guy who had powered an old Ford Ranger by stringing together 12 car/marine and an electric motor with a plug in to charge the batteries. Of course, he was living in warm, sunny LA, and the range and speed was limited.

That got me thinking. 

Hoping an electric car guy or someone can help steer me in the right direction.

I wish I had all the money in the world. I would have already tested this out!!!

I think I could do a real world test for my idea for $1000-$1500 scavaging a few parts and buying some used items. Simply stated, I just cannot afford to drop $1500 into an idea that I have no idea if it will work. If I can figure it out on paper first, well that might change a few things.

I am hoping that the GM alts would work in some fashion. They are cheap and readily available from junkyards.

As for re-inventing the wheel, I wish I were that smart!!!!!!

Thanks so much!!!!!
Clove


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## Windy in Kansas (Jun 16, 2002)

"How do you figure how much a standard GM alt puts out in electricity at different RPMs?"
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The best way to figure this out would of course be to install an amp meter and load and run the alternator with a small gasoline engine, varying the speed of the engine and/or using different sizes of drive pulleys. A shaft tachometer for precision would also be needed. 
========
"How long would it take to charge a regular car battery with a standard GM alt to full from dead empty?"
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Dead empty would imply no charge whatsoever in the battery, which I'm sure you do not mean. Without any battery energy there would be no power to energize/excite the fields within the alternator and therefore no output.
How long for recharging a battery would depend upon a lot of things. The rated output of the alternator, the size of the battery, and of course the RPMs the alternator is being turned at. A school bus 300 amp alternator vs a 40 amp alternator ----a 650 ampere hour battery vs a 1000 ampere hour battery, etc.
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How much resistance does a standard GM alt create....or how do I figure how much drag will I put on my contraption. It is like all others, the more load I use, the more energy it will take to run my contraption. 
--------
This sounds like a good question to pose to a racing team that is trying to pinch every available horsepower from an engine. Again the size of the alternator comes into play as well as the load on it. For operating a 40-60 amp alternator by gasoline engine I seem to recall a 4-5 horsepower requirement. Old Hoot Gibson was working on producing such, too bad he isn't still around. He could probably have answered all of your questions.
=========
How much battery power is needed to power a car down the road? How is it figured, and where do I learn what each of the terms mean?
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Without any accessories very little. As an example the generator went out of my 1949 Chevrolet truck and I drove about about 80 miles before needing to switch to a fully charged battery. The 80 miles included several engine starts and driving with lights for about 30 miles--a one ton with bed corner clearance lamps as well as stop/tail and headlamps. BTW I did install a one wire GM alternator to replace the generator.

I can't answer about modern cars with their computer modules, etc. but I would think very little as long as no accessories were used such as lights. However we all know that driving lights are a given on many modern vehicles.
The power usage would be measured in amps. A simple search will yield the meaning of amps.
=========
I agree that there are a lot of salvage yard alternators available. I don't know what you would have to pay for one but I don't find them cheap in my area, and no doubt much higher now than in years past because they contain copper wiring. When I installed the alternator on my old truck a rebuilt unit cost about $42--perhaps 10 years ago. Because the truck has corner clearance lamps and I sometimes pull a trailer that is lighted as well and also has trailer brakes I opted for a 60 amp alternator which cost more than a 40 amp. 

Sorry that I really can't help you with any of your answers but I do want to lend my support for your continued efforts toward a better mousetrap.


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

Clovis

Something to consider is that electric cars ar not wired for 12 volts on the propulsion side. They can be anywhere from 36 volts (golf cart) to over 300 volts. The regulator in the GM alts (or any alternator) would need modified to match the voltage ov the battery bank.


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## fordson major (Jul 12, 2003)

glad i'm in the .001 percentile!~


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

*WOW!!!!!*

*This is just what I needed!!!!*

This is taking me to the next step...lots to think about and study.

While have too much in my head right this minute to reply to everything that has been offered, one side note:

A core buyer I talked to a while back told me he would sell me common GM alts for about $5 each, and would refund my money if I brought them back in a reasonable time frame. I can get them tested for free about 2 blocks away at an auto electrical shop "if we aren't busy". 

I figure that I might need 8 good alternators in an ideal situation to test this out, just to learn if the idea is even feasable. I might try 4 alts to start out.

Should it look promising, I can return the GM alts, and upgrade to something decent.

What I need to know is how efficient my idea is to run those alts. 

If I can figure it out on paper, then it might be time to spend some money to see if the thing works.

I might be all wet. I do know that I am the lowliest neophyte when it comes to electricity, electric cars, theory, real world practicality, etc.

For those who have posted...thank you for your time and help!!!!!!! 

Clove


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

I would think you can look up a lot of statistics on the Prius & other hybred vehicles, and learn about they types of alternators they use in the brake regeneration curcuit, and how big of a battery & electric motor they need to move up to 30 mph, etc. While I'm sure there are trade secrets in there, there also should be a lot of info out there.

12v is not practical for electric motovation these days. Just like we moved from 6 to 12v years ago, we will again move perhaps to 48v in the near future.

I should think a GM alternator is cheap; what you will want is something that is very efficient. So test away, but you want to find a better mousetrap to get a real project out the door.

If you can eliminate mechanical motion, inverters will be more efficient. Don't know your actual power source, but will assume it is mechanical or you would not be involving alternators.

--->Paul


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## crafty2002 (Aug 23, 2006)

To start wit Clovis, don't ever worry how stupid you think others will think of you. centuries ago all the " Smart " people thought the world was flat.
They also said man would never fly. 
I am always coming up with some off the wall this or that. I am like Ford Major. I am glad I am in the .001% also. 

I don't know how much this will help but one HP is said to produce 746 watts, or .746 KW of electricity. With that said, small engines do not put out there HP ratings by no means. Same thing with electric motors. 

Others here that has said that 12 volts wouldn't work aren't completely right but they are right in that it should be a hiher voltage for effeiciency. 

I have often though about trying to build an electric car and my thoughts are to use the smallest/lightest car to be had to start with. (The smaller it is the better fuel efficiency)
Use motor that is three phase and about 460 volts and an inverter to change the battery system to useable voltage. (The higher the voltage the less Voltage drop through the wireing.)
A small diesel engine to power the alternators. 

Something else you may want to check on is how to build your own batterirs from old worn out ones at the junk yards. 
Lead is easy to melt down and pour into molds to make the plates. I just haven't came up with an easy or cheap idea to make the battery case yet. I have seen injection molding of plastic but it seeems like a chunck of money to get started in that.

Good Luck with the project and keep us tuned in on any progress.
Dennis


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## Michael Kawalek (Jun 21, 2007)

Hi Clovis
Here are a few numbers I can throw out at you. I've read that it takes about 5-6 horsepower to push a small car down the road at 55mph. Using the above numbers converted to watts, that's the equilevent of 3800-4500 watts consumed. That's a steady state value, and you can assume you'll need more power to accelerate to 55mph.

You average alternator puts out about 75 amps at 4000 RPM, which translates into about 1kw at 14.5 volts. Assuming about 33% power efficent power conversion, you'd need about a 4-4.5 horsepower engine to run one alternator at capacity.

Batteries are usually described by the number of amp-hours of current they produce. Let's say you have a 100 amphour battery. If you don't want to totally drain the battery (ruining it in a short time), assume you can consume 50 amps in 1 hour. To supply the 4500 watts of power to go 55mph you'd need about 6 or 7 of those batteries producing a total of 610 amps to drive down the road.

Assuming you have your motor/alternator setup was producing 75 amps, it would take about 4-5 hours of charging to replace the power consumed in 1 hour of driving. If you tried to do the same thing with a 150watt solar panel, it would take about 60+ hours of full sunlight to recharge all the batteries.

These are all off the cuff, ballpark numbers, but I think they'll give you an idea for what you'll have to plan for.
Have fun,
Michael


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

Thank you so much for all your input. 

This is just what I needed.

I have been super busy this week. Probably busier that I have been in 6 months. I would love to sit down and really, really study this with your input and help, but I have a family and got to make hay while the sun shines.

*I am super appreciative of your time and help.*

I have been trying to study this during what little down time I have. The first thing I have to do is sort it out in my mind, and do a little more research.

I also need to sort this out with my engineer-minded friend, who can be wildly critical of new, unproven ideas, but has been supportive and very constructive with this project.

My attention has been peaked by the bus GM alt that creates 300 amps. I wonder where I can get my hands on 4 of those? Junkyard?

Off to bed...an even busier day tomarrow.

*Again, thank you for your time, understanding and patience!!!!!!!!*

Clove


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

*Micael Kawalek*

Any chance that you would have the base mathmatical formulations, where I could plug in different numbers and figure out the different answers?

Clove


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## no1butcherman (Sep 6, 2007)

Hmm - electric car=car has 4 wheels=need to reinvent the wheel=make wheel alt/gen=4 wheels 4 alt/gen=get the wheels turning!!!


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## FL.Boy (Dec 17, 2007)

How much electricity does it take to move a small car, like a Chevy Cobalt, down the road at, lets say, 45MPH? What about a golf cart at 25 MPH? In essence, how much power does a battery hold? 


I don't know but ask Chevy next year the cobalt is going ele. they say it will go 40 miles on the battery's after that the engine will kick in and recharge the battery's or recharge with 110. 
I was wrong its call the volt and will be out in a few years.


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## Michael Kawalek (Jun 21, 2007)

Hi Clovis
The only formulas that are approprate I think are watts =Amperes X Volts (W=A X V), and horsepower = 746 watts. The other numbers are based on personal experience. For example I know the alternator of my car charges at 14.4-14.5 volts, so if a motor needs 10 amps of current, the number of watts is 144 (10A X 14.4V = 144W). I also know from reading that most energy conversions are about 33% efficient, so to produce 1 kw of electricity coming out, you'd need to put in about 3kw of mechanical energy.

Be advised when designing any electrical system, if the number of amps starts to excede 15-20 you start to require very heavy copper wire (read expensive) to carry the load safely. Another very critical consideration is matching the charging current with power consumption out of the battery. 

Frankly, the automotive engineers at Toyota, and GM work full time on developing the best batteries, chargers, and drive trains for hybrid cars, so I would seriously doubt you could whip anything better just fiddling around in your garage. I sure you could put together a system that charges the batteries, and does make the vehicle go down the road, but I would suspect you'll get it done with much more effort and less efficiency than what the automotive engineers are doing. I kind of view this effort as re-inventing the wheel, or building a better mousetrap. If you really think it will be better, than I say go for it, but it does sound like your time is very valuable, and I wonder if this is the best way to use it.


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## FL.Boy (Dec 17, 2007)

Also gm has been working on all this for over 10 years in 97 they had a all ELE. s-10.


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## WisJim (Jan 14, 2004)

Current electric vehicles using available battery and motor technology can go a mile on 500 watt-hours of electrical energy, or 2 miles per kilowatt, or better, perhaps as much as twice as far, if that helps at all.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

You know I've been wondering for years why you couldn't hook up a generator or alternator to each wheel to recharge a battery pack to help run an electric car. But I don't have the engineering or mechanical background to figure it out.
I know hybrids today use the braking power to help recharge, but why not the constant turning of the wheels?


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## friendlycritter (Mar 11, 2008)

Clovis I hate to rain on your parade but you are not the only person with this idea. I had a similar idea about 6 years ago. With my brother who is an engineer we found that many, many people were working on the same thing and in fact it is a patent idea. Unfortunately the kinks are still being worked out. So far this technology has resulted in our Hybrid cars. I figure give it a couple more years and it will be perfected. I can list some of the problems with the prototypes to consider if you are interested in devising your own electric self-charging car. Some being -weight of alternators , acceleration, added cooling systems. Anyway Toyota is very active on the self-charging electric motors.

But it is a great idea.

This site will be helpful in developing your idea further, like the part of kinetic energy from the braking to charge the battery, However I am sure they have patent rights.
http://www.rapidonline.com/toyota/prius.htm


Here is a site that has some magnetic stored energy articles that I find interesting.
http://astrosa.com/n95/n0295.htm

I don't think you are mad at all and neither do the rest of us who think just like you.


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## Windy in Kansas (Jun 16, 2002)

mnn2501 said:


> You know I've been wondering for years why you couldn't hook up a generator or alternator to each wheel to recharge a battery pack to help run an electric car. But I don't have the engineering or mechanical background to figure it out.
> I know hybrids today use the braking power to help recharge, but why not the constant turning of the wheels?


Have you ever hand cranked a small generator such as old crank style telephones had in them?

Under load they take considerable force to turn, so turning the alternators would take extra energy just to get down the road. Very similar in principal to running an auto air-conditioner as both the extra alternator load and the compressor give the engine enough extra load to affect gas mileage quite a bit. I really notice the difference on my four cylinder Ford Ranger.


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

Michael Kawalek said:


> Hi Clovis
> The only formulas that are approprate I think are watts =Amperes X Volts (W=A X V), and horsepower = 746 watts. The other numbers are based on personal experience. For example I know the alternator of my car charges at 14.4-14.5 volts, so if a motor needs 10 amps of current, the number of watts is 144 (10A X 14.4V = 144W). I also know from reading that most energy conversions are about 33% efficient, so to produce 1 kw of electricity coming out, you'd need to put in about 3kw of mechanical energy.
> 
> Be advised when designing any electrical system, if the number of amps starts to excede 15-20 you start to require very heavy copper wire (read expensive) to carry the load safely. Another very critical consideration is matching the charging current with power consumption out of the battery.
> ...


Michael,
This is a big help!!!
Re-inventing the wheel...no, but building a better mousetrap, yes.
Thank you so much!!!!!!
Clove


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

friendlycritter said:


> Clovis I hate to rain on your parade but you are not the only person with this idea. I had a similar idea about 6 years ago. With my brother who is an engineer we found that many, many people were working on the same thing and in fact it is a patent idea. Unfortunately the kinks are still being worked out. So far this technology has resulted in our Hybrid cars. I figure give it a couple more years and it will be perfected. I can list some of the problems with the prototypes to consider if you are interested in devising your own electric self-charging car. Some being -weight of alternators , acceleration, added cooling systems. Anyway Toyota is very active on the self-charging electric motors.
> 
> But it is a great idea.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your kind comments!

Sorry, not working on either of those ideas, although I find them interesting.

My idea does share with the Prius in that we are both charging batteries.

Mine is much more simple than their set up.

Again, thank you!!!!
Clove


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## clovis (May 13, 2002)

FL.Boy said:


> Also gm has been working on all this for over 10 years in 97 they had a all ELE. s-10.


I thought the GM EV was cool, and even got to see one in Indiana, plugged into the charger. The car was parked at a Rayetheon office. Aren't they the ones that developed the charger for GM?

I took a pic of the car sitting there, and now wished I would have investigated further by trying to find the owner/leassee.

My idea...even if it is dumb as a screen door on a submarine, might be an asset to an owner of a Chevy Volt, especially if you had a fleet of them, like a corporate business.

Clove


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## wy_white_wolf (Oct 14, 2004)

mnn2501 said:


> .... but why not the constant turning of the wheels?


http://www.evalbum.com/build#perpetual


> Is there anyway to make it recharge itself while driving?
> In a word, NO. Driving generators off the wheels, adding a windmill on top and similar ideas are often suggested. The problem is the increased drag from such items would be several times greater than the added power they would generate. It is a nice idea, but it won't work. There have been some folks working with pusher trailers to allow the EV to become a hybrid for highway use. You can find some info on one on JB's webpage.


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## FL.Boy (Dec 17, 2007)

clovis said:


> I thought the GM EV was cool, and even got to see one in Indiana, plugged into the charger. The car was parked at a Rayetheon office. Aren't they the ones that developed the charger for GM?
> 
> I took a pic of the car sitting there, and now wished I would have investigated further by trying to find the owner/leassee.
> 
> ...


I don't know about the charger but here's the S-10 on e-bay 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars...hash=item300239078913&_trksid=p3756.m14.l1308

Here is some more info about the S-10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_S-10_EV

I think there's lots of growing room in gas cars like why can't they make where the engine just runs from idle of about 600 rpm. to about 1,000 rpm so they would get better mpg. big trucks use to have 2 speed rear ends why can't car's and truck's have 2 or 3 or 4 speed rear ends and maybe 10 to 20 speed transmissions i think it would work make the transmission and rear do all the work why the engine just sits there and idles and sips gas.


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## friendlycritter (Mar 11, 2008)

Yours is simpler I am sure but I mentioned that the problems with your idea and the same as Toyota had. Being added weight to the car witch slowed it down. Needed increase in cooling of the generators/alternators. In theory it sounds good but the side effects make in impracticle.


> How much electricity does it take to move a small car, like a Chevy Cobalt, down the road at, lets say, 45MPH? What about a golf cart at 25 MPH? In essence, how much power does a battery hold?


This need will increase with the added weight of a generator or alternator big enough to work. At any rate most of the systems for alternators and generators charging or powering vehicles are already patent. 
If you want to make sure your idea is not already patent you can search at
http://www.uspto.gov/


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