# Starting from scratch



## JBjunior (Feb 22, 2016)

Good afternoon,

I guess this thread is of the "if you knew then what you know now" kind. We just finished paying for 40 acres and a couple of manufactured homes in SE NC. The majority is wooded, so we have been managing the timber with a consultant, and we are in the process of selling all of the timber (will probably plant back 20-25 acres). It has a small pond and will be a bare landscape (minus the two mobile homes that family members live in) to start with. We are active duty military that travel all over (on average move every two years) so this will be a slow process for the next few years. We have no debt, try to pay cash for everything, and will attempt to continue that along our journey.

We plan on building a small (750-800 sf) ICF (concrete, for the hurricane zone) home for our family. I want to have a large shop for storage and projects, probably a pole barn, and a wide range of sustainable resources. We already have a Kubota B7100 with a front end loader. We are very simple, have been downsizing most of our "consumer" items to practical needs and look forward to "retiring" in about 8 years. I grew up working hay, tobacco, cows, horses, hogs, turkeys, etc. so I am familiar with many processes.

From a construction stand point, or mainly a spending money standpoint, what should I be looking at as far as procuring/building for maximum benefit? If you were starting with a bare landscape, what order would you want to accomplish things?


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I am trying to understand why you would want to cut down all your trees, the go back and re-plant them? Clear cutting land isn't much less than raping the land.

Seems you would be much better off to manage what you have.. thin what needs to be tinned, and if you want a different type of trees, seed those in between the mature trees... 

I've got to wonder about your timber "consultant". Sounds to me like they are looking for a way to get rich and take some serious advantage of you.. 

You can get a hold of your local resources office, or land management or what ever your state offers, and have them come out and have them recommend the best way to manage your timber. . They don't have money as their motivator.


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## JBjunior (Feb 22, 2016)

simi-steading said:


> I am trying to understand why you would want to cut down all your trees, the go back and re-plant them? Clear cutting land isn't much less than raping the land.
> 
> Seems you would be much better off to manage what you have.. thin what needs to be tinned, and if you want a different type of trees, seed those in between the mature trees...
> 
> ...


That is the way timber works sometimes, the state has been involved from the beginning and concurs with the consultant. Cut down, take a portion of the profits and re-plant for next time.....


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Wow.. that is blowing my mind the state would say that too, unless there's an issue with all the trees such as some sort of disease or bug infestation.. Clear cutting land can cause a lot of erosion and invasive plants to take over along with other problems.. 

What state is this?


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## JBjunior (Feb 22, 2016)

simi-steading said:


> Wow.. that is blowing my mind the state would say that too, unless there's an issue with all the trees such as some sort of disease or bug infestation.. Clear cutting land can cause a lot of erosion and invasive plants to take over along with other problems..
> 
> What state is this?


As I stated in the original post, NC. No issue with the trees, it is a management practice. The state has been involved with my timber management for around 5 years. Not sure if erosion is a major issue on flat land in a forest.

Regardless, does anyone have any insight to my question?


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Sorry, I missed the part about NC.. If you got flat land.. well then... so much for erosion issues.. 

If I was in your shoes, I'd be sure water was the first thing taken care of... Not sure if you need a well or city water.

As far as a building, I think I'd build me a pole barn or similar first, then if need be, you could live out of part of that, while giving you a place to store everything. It would also be cheaper to build that first than building the home first.

A septic or sewer will probably be required before you could build a house. If you went with a pole barn or similar first, you may be able to bypass the requirements of the septic or sewer.. .You really need to find out the requirements of that from your county.


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## JBjunior (Feb 22, 2016)

simi-steading said:


> Sorry, I missed the part about NC.. If you got flat land.. well then... so much for erosion issues..
> 
> If I was in your shoes, I'd be sure water was the first thing taken care of... Not sure if you need a well or city water.
> 
> ...


Thanks. There are two wells on the property but I would be looking to put in at least one more. I am looking to do a composting toilet, I will have to fight to do it in my county but it has been allowed within the state before. I like the idea of a pole barn first. I have considered doing a large pole barn and furnishing part of it to live in, either short-term or long-term.


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## Dustin (Apr 20, 2011)

I think when you look back on it, you'll say if I knew then what I know now I would never have clear cut my land. That is unless these are already pines? A good hardwood timber stand is one of the best sustainable resources you can have next to your supply of water. From a resale standpoint, it also devalues the land quite a bit.


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## Michael W. Smith (Jun 2, 2002)

Dustin said:


> I think when you look back on it, you'll say if I knew then what I know now I would never have clear cut my land.


I agree.

About the time the forest "consultant" told me I needed to clear cut and then plant new trees, I would be looking for a new forest consultant.

What kind of trees are being clear cut and what kind of trees are you supposed to plant?


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## simplegirl (Feb 19, 2006)

Do you already have water and electricity to your home site? I know you said there are a couple of manufactured homes on the property so I am assuming you do. 

We also considered a composting toilet and finally decided against it. Mostly because of resale value. Our property will go to our girls (hopefully) once we are gone. Neither of them (and MOST people) would NOT go for a composting toilet. Regardless you will need a septic system so look into that now also.

Be sure you know if you need permits of any kind prior to building. Some places have very few codes and don't require many permits but others have a lot of hoops to jump through. 

Best of luck to you!


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## JBjunior (Feb 22, 2016)

Michael W. Smith said:


> I agree.
> 
> About the time the forest "consultant" told me I needed to clear cut and then plant new trees, I would be looking for a new forest consultant.
> 
> What kind of trees are being clear cut and what kind of trees are you supposed to plant?


Trees are pine. I appreciate the concern, but since this thread wasn't about that particular topic I wasn't going to address it, since everyone is getting caught up on it.... now I will. 

This has been a historically unmanaged plot of timber. There are various growth ages, all of adequate age, but highly overgrown and "thick" plot with an unmanageable underbrush (it would cost more to make it manageable than the trees would ever be worth, without clear cutting). The reason to clear cut is to cash out from what is on site, and then plant higher yielding/quicker growing, adequately spaced, actually managed/cared for timber. 

In my neck of the woods, clear cutting these will not hurt value. If it does, I will gladly pay less taxes. I have no plans to sell, so a short term potential loss in value until the pines are back up, is of no concern either.


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## JBjunior (Feb 22, 2016)

simplegirl said:


> Do you already have water and electricity to your home site? I know you said there are a couple of manufactured homes on the property so I am assuming you do.
> 
> We also considered a composting toilet and finally decided against it. Mostly because of resale value. Our property will go to our girls (hopefully) once we are gone. Neither of them (and MOST people) would NOT go for a composting toilet. Regardless you will need a septic system so look into that now also.
> 
> ...


Already have water and electricity, 2 septic systems.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

JBjunior said:


> will not hurt value. If it does, I will gladly pay less taxes.


LOL.. I had to laugh at this part.. When it comes to the government, your land will never decrease in value.. I keep swearing I'm going to go contest my property taxes because a whole lot of my land is over grown with Autumn Olive, and I've been working hard to remove a lot of it, but it's a battle I'll never win.. I also know the local government will never admit my land is worth a lot less because of the trash brush they had talked people into planting 40 years ago.. Another government idea that went belly up, and we the people are paying for..


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

JBjunior said:


> Trees are pine. I appreciate the concern, but since this thread wasn't about that particular topic I wasn't going to address it, since everyone is getting caught up on it.... now I will.
> 
> This has been a historically unmanaged plot of timber. There are various growth ages, all of adequate age, but highly overgrown and "thick" plot with an unmanageable underbrush (it would cost more to make it manageable than the trees would ever be worth, without clear cutting). The reason to clear cut is to cash out from what is on site, and then plant higher yielding/quicker growing, adequately spaced, actually managed/cared for timber.
> 
> In my neck of the woods, clear cutting these will not hurt value. If it does, I will gladly pay less taxes. I have no plans to sell, so a short term potential loss in value until the pines are back up, is of no concern either.


Being from the piney woods of east Texas I see your problem now with the trees. I agree with the managers now. You have nothing but a pain in the neck and a severe fire hazard during droughts. 

Other than that I agree with the pole barn first. Its easy, quick, will get your feet wet and you can do most anything with it.


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## JBjunior (Feb 22, 2016)

simi-steading said:


> LOL.. I had to laugh at this part.. When it comes to the government, your land will never decrease in value.. I keep swearing I'm going to go contest my property taxes because a whole lot of my land is over grown with Autumn Olive, and I've been working hard to remove a lot of it, but it's a battle I'll never win.. I also know the local government will never admit my land is worth a lot less because of the trash brush they had talked people into planting 40 years ago.. Another government idea that went belly up, and we the people are paying for..


I hear ya.



mreynolds said:


> Being from the piney woods of east Texas I see your problem now with the trees. I agree with the managers now. You have nothing but a pain in the neck and a severe fire hazard during droughts.
> 
> Other than that I agree with the pole barn first. Its easy, quick, will get your feet wet and you can do most anything with it.


Thank you for your thoughts.


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## kdj1998 (Apr 2, 2014)

I have been slowly working on my property for a lot of years as it was owned by my father. I purchased it from him about 1 and half years ago, it had no utilities nor was it every homesteaded... For an 80 in Kansas never to be homesteaded in Kansas usually means there is an issue... For me its the hill and the limestone...

Anyway, First I had a well drilled... I ended up with 2 wells and one dry hole by the time it was done. first well is a low producer, 2nd is more than adequate for a house but about as far from where I want to build as it can be!

Second, I had power pulled in. I set one utility pole and installed a disconnect on that pole. I have not pulled power to any other location, but the guys at the power company told me that I can move my disconnect after I have a building up. Neat deal they told me if I get a yard light for a year, the transformer was free... I'm all for free!

Third, I use my acreage for pasture and have cattle on it, so I built a fence around 2 acres that I want to use for building etc.

Now I have some entrances to improve, then I need to build the well house, I also need a small shed as I live 40 minutes from my property.

My plan is to build a two story shop, about 24 x 30 or so... Then use the upper story as living space... lower for storage, parking, workshop. Alternative is build a single story and get that RV I've been wanting... 

house will be last... and honestly may or may not happen until I'm near retirement...


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

I would start by adding carbon in the form of wood chips or straw or hay or compost to your future garden spot. The more the better.

I would also figure out if you want fruit trees and where and get them planted now so they are bearing fruit when you move to the property.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

If I were 18, and didn't mind looking at a war zone for three or four years, and then, not being able to actually move around at all on the land, for another ten years, till the under story jungle started dying out, I might clear cut everything and then have a nest egg for retirement in 40 or so years.

Know, if you cut down your mixed forest and replant (as in by a professional) your property tax issues might change. Here, they would triple from 'mixed forest' going into 'plantation'.

I did buy pine plantation property, and finally after 20 years, was able to actually move around in it, on foot, without losing too much blood.

otherwise.... get a good survey, set corner posts in cement, and fence the entire tract. Soil surveys. Building a pond/lake? core to see if you have clay. Plant orchards asap as it'll take years to get to harvest.

Get a complete title report, and of course, title insurance...


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## JBjunior (Feb 22, 2016)

texican said:


> If I were 18, and didn't mind looking at a war zone for three or four years, and then, not being able to actually move around at all on the land, for another ten years, till the under story jungle started dying out, I might clear cut everything and then have a nest egg for retirement in 40 or so years.
> 
> Know, if you cut down your mixed forest and replant (as in by a professional) your property tax issues might change. Here, they would triple from 'mixed forest' going into 'plantation'.
> 
> ...


It is already fenced with livestock fencing. I do have to repair some areas and will move some around. It already has a pond, though I would like to modify it.

The entire property is a "regular" rectangle with a smaller square jutting off near the bottom. The smaller square already is cleared, about 4 acres, and has two homes on it. Going into the large rectangle already has tractor "roads around the entire perimeter. There are also many cut through roads through the property. There is one large driveway/road that goes up near the center that goes all the way to the pond and near the top of the property. The pond area already has a couple of acres cleared and there is another area that was cleared of about 2 acres 7 years ago. My point is it isn't just a big block of raw woods. 

I didn't close on the clear cutting and I have decided to have a forestry mulcher come in for about 3-4 acres near my home site for the short term. I am going to leave all of my large trees and just have them take down all of the underbrush and smaller trees. I don't envision clear cutting at any point, I will make plans with the rest of the property coming up in the next few months.


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## melli (May 7, 2016)

JBjunior said:


> It is already fenced with livestock fencing. I do have to repair some areas and will move some around. It already has a pond, though I would like to modify it.
> 
> The entire property is a "regular" rectangle with a smaller square jutting off near the bottom. The smaller square already is cleared, about 4 acres, and has two homes on it. Going into the large rectangle already has tractor "roads around the entire perimeter. There are also many cut through roads through the property. There is one large driveway/road that goes up near the center that goes all the way to the pond and near the top of the property. The pond area already has a couple of acres cleared and there is another area that was cleared of about 2 acres 7 years ago. My point is it isn't just a big block of raw woods.
> 
> I didn't close on the clear cutting and I have decided to have a forestry mulcher come in for about 3-4 acres near my home site for the short term. I am going to leave all of my large trees and just have them take down all of the underbrush and smaller trees. I don't envision clear cutting at any point, I will make plans with the rest of the property coming up in the next few months.


Cool. Pics tell a story....

I have a thread up here...my acreage is a lot smaller. However, it was fully treed. I had little choice but to clearcut it. Top of a rock, trees were struggling, no soil to weather summer droughts or get nutrients. I tried to be selective about it, but when trees are crammed against each other, you take out a bad one, the roots are tied in with the good one. But the biggest problem, is once you clear an area, the trees you leave behind become a hazard because they grew up skinny, and cannot withstand a windstorm. Up here, we call them pecker poles. :shrug:
In the end, I wasted a lot of time trying to be selective. 

Ok, as for your question...I like the idea, if you can (here we technically cannot build outbuildings (sheds, barns) until there is a house...absolute ########!). 
I've got two outbuildings and still no house....lol
With an outbuilding, a big one, one can live in it, and also store tools and materials one collects in their travels. I am always looking out for deals on building materials I could use. 
We do need septic to get a permit. You mentioned you have two septic fields? Are they functional? 
It sounds like you got your land clearing situation sorted...hopefully, that includes pulling stumps, stacking slash piles for burn or mulch (whatever is done down there). 
Getting power to the barn you want to raise would be helpful (temp outlet). Getting cable/internet there would be helpful too...I can't live without Internet (buy more junk and research). 
Are the mobile homes on site? Important to have some accommodations nearby while you do your first build. Getting them hooked up to septic, water and power would be the first thing I'd do, if they are not. 
All the best.


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## Echoesechos (Jan 22, 2010)

Nothing wrong in selective harvesting. I read into your posts that you didn't buy the property to become a tree farm. I would look at your 8 year plan and put in fruit trees, berry bushes, garden beds etcc don't they might be producing when you retire. As you plant I would setup a drip system to water those items you plant. Are you planning on visiting the property often thru the year? If so you could adjust water system and check for any issues with what you plant. 

How fortunate that a lot of the immediate needs are met. Fencing, septic, water, housing. Are you able to rent out the homes? Income from rentals and maybe over site of your property for a reduction in rent. 

How fun to be where you are and your future is exciting.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

One thing that many people overlook is the lifetime cost of a home or car. The cost of construction is only part of the cost. Then there are costs of cooling and heating, maintenance, etc. Those often amount to more than the construction costs.

One thing I'm focusing on in designing my future home is how I can reduce the future costs of cooling and heating at a time when my income will be fixed. That means lots of insulation beyond the recommended level and shade trees. It also makes a more comfortable home.


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## JBjunior (Feb 22, 2016)

fishhead said:


> One thing that many people overlook is the lifetime cost of a home or car. The cost of construction is only part of the cost. Then there are costs of cooling and heating, maintenance, etc. Those often amount to more than the construction costs.
> 
> One thing I'm focusing on in designing my future home is how I can reduce the future costs of cooling and heating at a time when my income will be fixed. That means lots of insulation beyond the recommended level and shade trees. It also makes a more comfortable home.


You are right fishhead, that is why we are building small, in the shade, with adequate insulation to keep us cool. Heating isn't much of an issue.


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## JBjunior (Feb 22, 2016)

Echoesechos said:


> Nothing wrong in selective harvesting. I read into your posts that you didn't buy the property to become a tree farm. I would look at your 8 year plan and put in fruit trees, berry bushes, garden beds etcc don't they might be producing when you retire. As you plant I would setup a drip system to water those items you plant. Are you planning on visiting the property often thru the year? If so you could adjust water system and check for any issues with what you plant.
> 
> How fortunate that a lot of the immediate needs are met. Fencing, septic, water, housing. Are you able to rent out the homes? Income from rentals and maybe over site of your property for a reduction in rent.
> 
> How fun to be where you are and your future is exciting.


You are right, I didn't. I like the idea of trees though. Good information what to plant. I will be living on the property in a month or so. The homes are rented out to family that have kept an eye on the property.


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## Darren (May 10, 2002)

ICF is a good way to go for hurricane resistance. There are differences in the various manufacturers. Based on a recent project I'd use the forms that collapse to save space in shipping and are expanded on the job site. They are also longer.

You must make sure the footer is absolutely level otherwise the ICF will be a PITA to level later. You may get into a situation where you have to cut off the keys to get them level which means using an adhesive and plywood nailers to keep them together when you pour. 

The easiest way to do the rebar is to drill the footer and use a construction adhesive like the epoxy from Hilti to glue the vertical rebar into the footer. That hole needs to be at least 8" deep. Pour the footer appropriately. Lay the horizontal rebar in on the connecting struts. Use rebar bent 90 degrees for the corners and make sure you have the correct overlap for the bar size you use.

Currently there's only one manufacturer that makes an outlet/switch box that works with ICF. That doesn't mean you can't use regular boxes. You'll need a temporary piece of plywood over them to keep the concrete from moving them. Use conduit for wiring inside the ICF. Use a vibrator to consolidate the concrete around the rebar, conduit, etc. You can use an electric "knife" to cut grooves in the foam to add conduit and plumbing if you'd rather do that. The drywall will hide it.

Build the window and door frames out of wood rather than use the factory steel frames to save money and eliminate the energy loss associated with a direct metal connection from the interior to exterior. That can be a "rough-in" frame to act as part of the form. Brace those vertically and horizontally. Even the steel frames will be moved by the concrete if they're not braced.

I wouldn't try to pour the entire wall in one shot. That's the easiest way to prevent blowouts. Place the footer and afterwards set two to three layers of the ICF for the first pour to get above ground. That keys the ICF to the footer. Make sure the ICF is properly braced otherwise the walls can end up being out of plumb and weaving from corner to corner. Pour the rest of the ICF in three or four foot lifts. Once the ICF is above ground, do your underground plumbing etc. Use sleeves through the ICF to provide a passage for the piping, drains, etc. then place the floor slabs to work off.

For the roof, you can get embed plates with Nelson studs from a steel fabricator. Set those in the top layer of the ICF. You can weld metal trusses to those to make a roof that a hurricane will not rip off. I'd go with a flat roof using metal decking that's screwed to the trusses. Do not weld them. You can add as much insulation on the decking as you like. Normally that's 4" in two layers offset to avoid continuous gaps.

You'll have an incredibly strong and energy efficient structure. It's also a simple DIY job that can be done in stages as you have the money and time.


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