# Water Bag showing???



## tomjones (Dec 22, 2007)

This morning as a I got ready to leave, my daughter was doign chores in the barn. I walked out to visit with her and make sure all was well with her Nigerian Dwarf does that are getting ready to kid. She was standing by the pen of the closest first freshener and said that nothing seemed imminent. No real changes from yesterday. Princess (the goat) was standing feet high on the gate begging for treats in her usual fashion. In my typical smart alec dad manner I asked her what she thought the water bag hanging out meant if there was nothing imminent???

Preface my interpretation. I have a LOT of beef experiance, as in thousands of calves born, but not much with goats. In a beef animal, if a heifer had a water bag out and had not calved in 4-5 hours, I would have gone fishing for a hung leg or a malpresentation. 

My daughter conned her mother into skipping her first study hall, claiming this was an "Educational Experience" and watched her for a couple of hours. It appears the water bag never broke, and she has basically just been in discomfort all day. AFter 15 minutes this morning the water bag went back in, without breaking. She says it was out again tonight for a few minutes again when she stood on the fence, but when I just got home from listening to Joel Salatin speak (a whole nother very cool story) I checked her and she appeared just uncomfortable. I watched her for a minute and she defecated twice, but was still feeling good enough to stand up on the gate and say hi. I gently inserted a finger a ways (if there actually is something wrong my slender handed daughter is going to have to be involved because my hand is not going to work) and I could feel nothing unusual except that I believe the water bag to be there and intact. 

Anyone have suggestions??? Is this an unusual phenomenon at all??

At this point I am inclined to just let her work, but am willing to entertain opinions for a few minutes before zonking until a 230am dad check. Anyone??


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

If it is indeed the water bag, your daughter needs to have gone in this morning after a half hour or less of no labor.
That does sound like there is a mispresentation and if you want any chance of a live kid(s) on the ground, something needs to be done ASAP.
This assumes what you are seeing is the actual water bag...and with your beef experience, I trust your judgement.
If a kid is not presented properly at the cervix, the doe will not have proper contractions. So it quite likely is sideways.
Please lube up and get the baby(ies) out.
Edited to add,
If you can feel the water bag, then the doe is fully dilated. She has been in labor since this morning or earlier.


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## tomjones (Dec 22, 2007)

Any value in oxytocin in goats??? 

I can think of absolutely nothing else it could have been... size of an orange, taught, full of fluid. Different in size from a beef animal, and more perfectly round than a beef animal. Orange versus a pear shape in cattle. I simply dont know that I am going to be able to get into her. But I am about to start getting my stuff on...


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Sounds like a goat water bag to me. You need to go fishing.


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

http://www.freewebs.com/morningmistherd/sheskiddingright.htm
Scroll down to the second kid being born.

If she is dilated then yes there is some benefit to oxytocin. If she isn't dilated, the oxy causes strong contractions but against a closed cervix. I don't have experience with it myself. The only time we used it was under vet instructions with a dead decomposing kid we pulled. I let the doe labor with the kid malpresented. We gave the doe the oxy after we managed to get the kid out (5 hours myself and then another 1 or 2 hours with the vet). It was to help the uterus and expel the excess.


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## tomjones (Dec 22, 2007)

Well.. I don't know what to do or say. There is literally no way that I can get my hand anywhere close to fitting, and my daughter says hers wont go either. I can feel the cervix and it does not appear to be dialated to me. I can get my fingers onto the first cervical ring, but not into it. I can feel no kids beyond it no matter what position I place her in. The sack has absolutely not broken or at least I have never seen a female with that clean a hind end after she is leaking uterine fluid. 

I am about to the point of saying it was a minor vaginal prolapse. THe condition and spirits she is in would never make me say a heifer was in distress. Maybe goats are tougher than heifers, but I doubt it. UNlike a heifer, I fear my only option is to call for a csection if I am going to intervene at this point, and she just does not appear in that level of distress. So I guess I have to wait and see. We'll see what morning brings.


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

A minor vaginal prolapse was another possibility.
But fluid filled sounds like a water bag.
Veruca is the doe we pulled the dead decomposing kid from. I had luted her two days after suspecting she had been in labor. At that point she had gone off feed. Before that she was fine. For two days she acted perfectly fine. She had started labor and after no progression, her cervix had closed back up with the kid inside still.
It did not end well for us. 
Keep a close eye on her. 
http://fiascofarm.com/galleries/Goa...th_Related_Photos/Goldies_Delivery/index.html
This one shows both the red bubble and the bubble that contains the kid. Did it look like either?


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## tomjones (Dec 22, 2007)

Similiar, but it was solid red... I thought fluid filled but really doubting myself. Not even sure if my vet would caeserian her.


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## Caprice Acres (Mar 6, 2005)

tomjones said:


> Any value in oxytocin in goats???
> 
> I can think of absolutely nothing else it could have been... size of an orange, taught, full of fluid. Different in size from a beef animal, and more perfectly round than a beef animal. Orange versus a pear shape in cattle. I simply dont know that I am going to be able to get into her. But I am about to start getting my stuff on...


Do NOT NOT NOT give oxytocin to a goat with a mispresnentation! If she cannot move the baby, she will rupture her uterus. Oxytocin doesn't dialate the cervix, just causes contractions. 

Sounds like a prolapse if it was all pink/red, especially going in and out... If you see it again, post pictures and someone with expereince with prolapses can help ID it. I would normally describe birthing sacs as amber colored and clear.


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Hows the doe doing this morning? Any pictures yet? When is the does' due date?
I'm keeping my fingers crossed everything is fine & a good outcome for you & the doe.


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

None of the pictures I found were what I wanted.
Here are some I took this afternoon of Victoria kidding.
*Graphic*








Water bag that the kid is in. This can also be darker in color if the kid has passed the meconium (usually due to a stressful labor).








Showing a red bubble alongside as well.








Hand behind to show the tint of the red bubble better.

A vaginal prolapse can look like a water bag. There is air behind it which makes it puffy. So touching it to feel texture will tell you more. It is pink and fleshy.
I thought I had pictures of Milky Way's prolapse, but can't find it in my photobucket album and can't find it on any of the forums I would have posted on. My tower with most of my pictures is currently non-functional, so I can only work with what I have uploaded and pictures I take now.


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## tomjones (Dec 22, 2007)

After looking at all of these pics I would have to say I was looking at a vaginal prolapse. A much more uniform red color, and while I would have said full of fluid, really an inverted vaginal wall would also be full of fluid. Lookinga t her bag she is enlarge for sure, but not ready to leak milk or anything. If I can get smoe pics I sure will, but we stood her on her back legs for some time this morning trying to recreate and could not.. I will keep you updated....


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Looking forward to updates; hoping and praying for the best.


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## mabeane (Jun 5, 2010)

I think I have a doe with a minor vaginal prolapse today as well. She is wide open and this fleshy thing is going in and out when she stands (in) and sits (out). She is due (150 days) in two weeks. 
She walks like she is very uncomfortable.


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## tomjones (Dec 22, 2007)

If I can I will get a pic, but she is not doing anything today...


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## tomjones (Dec 22, 2007)

No recurrences of whatever was hanging out. And is now several days closer to what I would have figured her due date as. Gave her a belly rub/inspection last night and felt at least two kid movements, so things are still kickin in there. That was very good news.


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

Glad to hear it.
When Milky Way had her prolapse prior to kidding two or three years ago, it did interfere with the delivery. The kid was tangled up in all the loose skin. It was blocking the kids delivery so I had top go and pull it aside to make space for the delivery. It does not sound like your doe's is as extreme as Milky Way's was. Her's was pretty constant everytime she laid down for the last two to three weeks of her pregnancy. Just something to keep in mind. 
Milky Way is 9 this year and delivering for her ninth time. She has only had the one issue a few years back. No issues before and none since.


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## severtki (Jul 6, 2008)

Give us an update on your doe when you have a chance -- everything still looking OK?


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## BackfourtyMI. (Sep 3, 2007)

Yeah, update please? Any babies yet?


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