# How I Drop a Tree



## Guest (Jan 29, 2013)

OK, today, I banged around a while, then around 11:00 started on this project. What I am going to do is dismantle my greenhouse, and put it back together, attached to the yellow building, which is adjacent to the garden. I'll plant some stuff in the 1/3 of a 55 gallon drum, and when the weather warms up, I'll simply pull them to the outside, in the garden, with a winch and pulley. I've figured it all up, I'll end up in good shape on it, won't need to buy anything else, and it will be a lot more convenient for whenever I get real old. A couple years ago, I had a huge tree fall on the overhang of the yellow building, so I want to get the tallest trees that could cause damage out of the way. I lowered one section of fence to flat on the ground and cut all the trees so they would fall there. This is how I do that. 

This tree is pretty tall. When it was down, I measured it, 97 ft tall. 18 inches across at the cut, so that could have been quite a lot of weight and reached a long ways.









1: Cut on the opposite side from the direction of your cleared space, or just whichever way I want it to fall. I like to cut about halfway through. 









Drive in a couple of wedges, once again, exactly opposite of the direction of the intended fall. Check a time or 2 to be sure you've lefe enough room for your saw. 









Cut a little, and keep tapping your wedges in. It don't take long.









Here is the before and after skyline: Before









After:









So, about 7 trees, I worked up a couple of them, but I had to go get the dogs some dogfood. Today was the last day of the cheese sale(BOGO, plus get 50 cents cash back) So I got some more extra sharp cheddar. Messed with the dogs when I got back home, I was telling them the dog food was for me, not them. The little rat terrier knew I was kidding, but that big old bonehead dog thought I was serious. At least, that's what he looked like he was thinking. 

I am seriously wore down for the day, considering that I only messed around out there maybe 5 hours. I've really lost my edge with the last couple months of shortened days and cold, rainy weather. Horribly out of shape! I'd hate to think this would be all I could do when I was 80 or something. Glad to finally get in a good lick though. I'll work up everything outside the fence a little at a time, it's not bothering anybody.


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## Raven12 (Mar 5, 2011)

You are a stud. Not a poser, a stud.


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## lonelytree (Feb 28, 2008)

I have never seen pics using this type of cuts to drop a tree. Your hinge is disturbing to say the least.


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2013)

May be disturbing to you, but it would be even more disturbing to me if I'd just let it fall the way it wanted to, and broke down some fence or took out 70 ft of asparagus and God knows how much onion and garlic on either side of the asparagus or mashed the daylights out of my building. So, be disturbed. I'm one with the universe. 

Hey, R12, I'll be back to top shelf in about 4-5 more weeks. Usually run down for 7-8 weeks when the weather turns off, then takes 5-6 weeks to get it back together when the days start getting longer. BUT, this is what a 61 year old body looks like. I do go to just a little bit of trouble to look like that, though.


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## Echoesechos (Jan 22, 2010)

Is there a reason you don't use a face cut? Is the tree a Ponderosa Pine? Puzzle bark looks like it.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I was wondering the same thing.. why you didn't take a wedge out on the side you wanted it to fall, then your hinge would be in the middle of the tree, More reason the tree would want to fall towards the face cut, and not be so dangerous... .. .You still could have used the wedges on the back cut to make sure it still fell the way you wanted.when tress 

What you have left is called a barber chair. When trees fall like that, they have been known to kill people.. Yours isn't real bad, but it could have been... If it would have split up higher, it could have easily been a disaster..


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2013)

I need that extra height to put my fence on, or even pull a cable for a couple years. I can pull a cable, and tie baling twine droppers and run beans up on it. I'm seriously into functionality. Of course, if I was doing it for someone else, I'd cut it right to the ground. If it don't rain tomorrow, I'll turn the one cedar I cut into a chair, such as this one:


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2013)

simi-steading said:


> I was wondering the same thing.. why you didn't take a wedge out on the side you wanted it to fall, then your hinge would be in the middle of the tree, More reason the tree would want to fall towards the face cut, and not be so dangerous... .. .You still could have used the wedges on the back cut to make sure it still fell the way you wanted.


Because I've seen that fail in the worst way. The weight is going to pull the tree. As far as I can tell, cutting a wedge out of the dropping side is some sort of psychological hallucination, inducing a false sense of security. And, above all, I'm a realist.


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

I think we could fight about just about anything here... maybe this is the new America. I'd side with Zong being from the Tarheel state, except he doesn't return messages... (this is a joke. See, even in this it'd start a conflagration!). Glad you got the tree down Zong. =)


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

You might want to check out some youtube videos of barber chairs... The tree splits up the middle (which a face cut helps prevent) then it snaps off somewhere above you... , the tree starts to fall and will roll off that split up above you, and kick backwards at the same time... You are almost positivitly going to be standing somewhere you can't get away once it does barber chair...

I'm glad you got it down without something going really wrong...


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## homemaid (Apr 26, 2011)

We have cut trees for firewood for many many years. Probably more than you are old. We have NEVER tried to drop a tree without cutting out a wedge. You may still need to use your splitting wedge on the backside. But what you are doing us .VERY dangerous. We have seen many many people be injured and even killed thinking they know how to cut down a tree.


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Just don't do that with anybody else around or teach anybody to do it your way.... killing yourself is one thing, being responsible for killing someone else is something else entirely. Unbelievable that people actually do something so stupid, let alone BRAG about it and present it as an example...


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2013)

I've only done it this way for a little over 30 years. Ever since I saw a guy use the notch methods and have faith that it would work, and happily cut the tree which then pinched his bar, and about 30 second later, broke his house. 
Hey, this way works, and always has, for me. I didn't title it "this is how you think I should cut down a tree" It don't have to be the youtube method, as long as I've never had it fail. And I don't have any false expectations that a notch of the side will counterbalance several thousand pounds of wood, falling as gravity dictates.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

homemaid said:


> We have cut trees for firewood for many many years. Probably more than you are old. We have NEVER tried to drop a tree without cutting out a wedge. You may still need to use your splitting wedge on the backside. But what you are doing us .VERY dangerous. We have seen many many people be injured and even killed thinking they know how to cut down a tree.


You've been cutting down trees for more than 62 years? I do not believe that. Not at all.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

Is the tree laying exactly opposite of the cut, or not?? Opinions are opinions. Facts are facts. Look at the pictures. There are your facts. by the fact that I'm typing this, right now, indicates I'm probably not dead. So, I got facts. You got opinions.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

It's called a slash cut, Zong and it's not an opinion that it's dangerous, it's fact. Feel free to do as you wish, but we'd be doing a disservice not to call you on it.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

Yeah, I used to do that too, until I saw how it gave people a false sense of security. The guy I referred to in post 13? Because he cut down a tree that fell on his house, the insurance company didn't cover it. Clearly he was the sole cause of the damage. And he kept on saying "I made the notch just like I was supposed to" I understand the purpose of the notch. I don't like it. Never have, never will. It's a lot like some people's idea about religion. "As long as I believe, I don't have to think about consequences" Fact is, the weight will carry the tree. Not the notch.

Another thing. I'm dropping these trees in a direction that they do not want to go. Cutting part way through is just going to make a leaning tree able to lean more.


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## foxfiredidit (Apr 15, 2003)

Yeah, but if he goes and does it the right way, the back of the barber chair (if there is one) will wind up in the middle of the stump and not on the outside edge. 

Nice saw Zong, I got its twin and its nephew on the back of my truck. Stay safe.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

That's my HuskyV. I really hope it'll take me through the rest of my life. I had a David Bradley that lasted decades. Musta weighed 45 pounds.


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## homemaid (Apr 26, 2011)

zong said:


> You've been cutting down trees for more than 62 years? I do not believe that. Not at all.


Hubby is a few years older than that and yes he was cutting trees for over 62 years......
Do I read a bit of arrogance in your posts?? Do as you please but please don't teach anyone how to cut down a tree.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

What is the title of this thread? Is it how you should cut down a tree? Or what? Arrogance? You tell me that you've been cutting down trees for over 62 years and expect me to believe that?? That's arrogance.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Just because there is a notch cut in a tree gives no guarantee the tree will fall that way. It will however help a great deal to avoid a barber chair. Anyone with good experience can make a tree fall most any way they want, and towards the notch, whether using wedges in the back cut, or ropes t pull it in the direction it needs to go.. 

Anyone who drops a tree on their house or a car or such should have never had a saw in their hand in the first place..


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## homemaid (Apr 26, 2011)

zong said:


> What is the title of this thread? Is it how you should cut down a tree? Or what? Arrogance? You tell me that you've been cutting down trees for over 62 years and expect me to believe that?? That's arrogance.


You can believe what you want. My hubby is well over your age of 62 and yes we still cut wood to heat our home. I don't find that as arrogant. Just keeping warm.
Enjoy your tree cutting and we will safely enjoy ours....


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

homemaid said:


> *We **have cut trees* for firewood for many many years. *Probably more than you are old*. .......................


 So, let's say that *you* started cutting trees when you were, say, possibly 18. That indicates that you are now 80, and still cutting trees. I don't believe that. Not at all. So, here's the deal. Either *YOU* have been cutting trees down for 62 years, or you haven't. Because any "we" consist of yourself and someone else. And I seriously doubt that either one of you have been cutting trees for 62 years. Which implies that you are saying something with no basis in truth. So, how is it that I'm arrogant? You make a statement that is astronomically improbable, yet accuse me of arrogance?? Had you not made the statement, yourself, I could not have responded to it. Could I have????


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

Cutting trees is dangerous, don't matter how you do it. It's best to make you peace with the Master afore you start, and several times in between.

Not every body knows how to read the bark on a tree, how to notch, and how to fall it where you want it. If the tree spins on the stump.... gotta be careful.

Had a great uncle get killed coming out the woods for lunch. They'd been cutting curing wood for tobacco...limb broke by a falling tree went ahead and broke off..fell 
and stuck right in the top of his head.

If my brother and I are cutting a bad one, we use the tractor and a couple hundred feet a cable. Shoot and arrow weighted with taps over a limb high-up. Builders twine attached to the arrow allows us to pull up a light cable attached to a heavy cable with a loop. 300 feet of heavy cable hooked to the tractor a pulling the way you want her to fall. We've cut down some bad, big trees that away. I don't recomend it to no one.

If I want to fall a bad tree myself, I use my axe to finish falling the tree. I find some times I can cut too fast with my Husky. If they're too close to light lines, I call a old boy with a trac-hoe. Cheaper than paying for the light lines.


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## lonelytree (Feb 28, 2008)

plowhand said:


> Cutting trees is dangerous, don't matter how you do it. It's best to make you peace with the Master afore you start, and several times in between.
> 
> Not every body knows how to read the bark on a tree, how to notch, and how to fall it where you want it. If the tree spins on the stump.... gotta be careful.
> 
> ...


I send my climber up and drop it 5 feet at a time. Rope the pieces down if near a structure.


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

Well that logs not going for veneer. But your not cutting for it. Technically it's not the "right" way to do it. But it's also what he's comfortable with an knows. I used to just do the hinge cut years ago before I learned bore cut. An have progressed from there n still learning. So I will give u some advice that u can still cut the trees the way u want an take some of the danger that others are talking about. U can bore into the tree where the stress that cuases barber chair. I'm sure by now u got a good idea where it'll happen now. It's an extra step that will not affect the way u cut it what so ever but make it safer.


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## Ramblin Wreck (Jun 10, 2005)

I've not seen that cut without a notch on the other side Zong, but it seems to work for you. These days, I live less dangerously if I'm felling something near a structure. I wait for a favoring wind after the ground has been drenched by a good rain and then push the sucker over. Usually it lands where the Cat pushes it...usually.


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## dkhern (Nov 30, 2012)

cut the tree any way you want. if it falls on something deal with it. if you get injured deal with it.


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## lonelytree (Feb 28, 2008)

dkhern said:


> cut the tree any way you want. if it falls on something deal with it. if you get injured deal with it.


You must be from AR.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

zong said:


> So, let's say that *you* started cutting trees when you were, say, possibly 18. That indicates that you are now 80, and still cutting trees. I don't believe that. Not at all. So, here's the deal. Either *YOU* have been cutting trees down for 62 years, or you haven't. Because any "we" consist of yourself and someone else. And I seriously doubt that either one of you have been cutting trees for 62 years. Which implies that you are saying something with no basis in truth. So, how is it that I'm arrogant? You make a statement that is astronomically improbable, yet accuse me of arrogance?? Had you not made the statement, yourself, I could not have responded to it. Could I have????


I could rustle up any number of old farts who really did cut trees longer than you've been alive. And starting at 18? my grandpa started cutting trees when he was old enough to swing an ax(too poor to afford a chainsaw, then was loggin "for real" at 16 with a chainsaw, clearing a road for the BLM).

you doth protest too much


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

How you did it, Zong, was dangerous. You risked the tree doing a Barberchair and springing the butt right into yourself. Don't even try to tell me I don't know about timber falling. I've been out there and I've been to plenty of logger funerals, averaging 1 a year.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

The Title got me  Yes, Zong, that is how you do it, and I respectfully won't argue how you did it at all. Hey, you have done it for 30 years and so far, so good. 

DH does it differently, but it works for him (cuts a wedge strategically how he wants the tree to fall). He studies the tree and then attaches guy wires to insure it won't fall where he doesn't want it to. After that, he cuts out the wedge. Then, to insure he has more control, uses the truck winch to gently pull it over. He built the log boom for the truck. This shows him felling a 100+ ft tall Cedar tree using the winch on the truck...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEu9VjIijNM[/ame]


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## wannabechef (Nov 20, 2012)

Dangerous!

I agree with most everybody else...this is NOT the way to fell a tree!

I use the winch on my truck!


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## Raven12 (Mar 5, 2011)

Warwalk said:


> I think we could fight about just about anything here... maybe this is the new America. I'd side with Zong being from the Tarheel state, except he doesn't return messages... (this is a joke. See, even in this it'd start a conflagration!). Glad you got the tree down Zong. =)


Bingo. That is ST. You can expect the regular beat down unless you are part of a certain group and then anything you do is amazing, inspiring, and to be applauded. I can name at least 3 times off the top of my head that an individual posted dangerous projects that everyone went nuts over. 

ST is not the forum to seek homesteading advice. I would recommend the other specialized forums. The same group rarely hangs out there or else they are the minority.


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

Well I guess because I'm on the authority on every subject! Yes it does get annoying for me to be perfect n great in every matter. I have come specifically into this thread to tell Zong how wrong he is! I offer no advice how to do it safer etc... But I did stay at a holiday inn express also I had coffee in a diner where tree cutter down guys go to. An there combined exp adds up to a really really lot so be intaminated! Now I think mavs advice was pretty good being that a bore above a projected split spot moves that stress to a Diffrent point in a tree.


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm going to add Zong to the my hate/ predjudice list. I don't understand him n he does things different than me.


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## starjj (May 2, 2005)

Well he did say This is the way I fell a tree. He did not suggest anyone do the same. It has worked for him for 30 years. Maybe dangerous and he is just lucky or maybe it just works for him.

Me I wouldn't be felling ANY trees. The way I do it is call someone that knows what they are doing (hopefully). I watched ex BF fall trees here and one went bad and took out a fence. Luckily it didn't take him out. Some things unless your a professional I wouldn't be even attempting to do. One is felling trees at least for me.

I will agree with R12 that some people on the forum seem to be they can do no wrong. They could pass gas and there are people on here that would compliment their perfume.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

Knocking trees down is dangerous business. Some techniques are *safer* than others and still you take your chances and say a prayer before making sawdust, as someone said.

I'm glad folks with experience piped up to tell of the pitfalls of the technique. Then the readers of this thread can make an informed choice. Certainly the OP can keep on using this risky technique if he wants to. But since this forum is a how-to place with a lot of folks that don't know any better and are looking for information(I am referring to all of HT), such stuff needs to be critiqued.

Falling trees is DANGEROUS business, and NOT something you go about with a cavalier attitude. I would wager the OP got through unscathed because it was a straight enough grained, healthy tree.

Congrats on getting it on the ground without incident. I'm glad no vegetables were harmed in the demise of the tree.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

I guess safest would be sitting on your butt in front of a computer, looking up youtube videos, and talking about something you have no actual experience with. A lot like some people are about life in general. 
It's like when I try to post pictures and details of how I garden, how I cook, and so on. There are maybe a dozen people on HT that actually want to know anything, and 20,000 that only want to criticize and say "You can't do that" 
Well, I do do that, every day of my life.
Furthermore, Anytime you have a live chainsaw, a hundred ft tall tree that weighs over 6,000 pounds, it's dangerous. Especially for an 80 year old woman. Life is dangerous. And unicorns flying around your head is really dangerous.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

nobody said "you can't do that", a few people with real experience said "that is a dangerous technique ie with a higher probability of foul up then other techniques(backed up by statistics)"

huge, enormous difference. but hey, keep on keeping on!


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Folks could post pictures of themselves driving drunk or playing Russian roulette too. Hey why not, it's worked out for them so far? Doesn't mean it isn't a moronic way to go. I fall hundreds, sometimes thousands of trees every winter, sometimes I have a couple of other guys working for me doing the same. There are different ways to do it in different situations but if I saw one of them cutting a tree like that like Zong did they'd be headed for the closest path off my property and never work a second for me again.


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

I guess this would be a good poll to see who actually cuts trees themselves an who is just posting "knowledge"they have without some substantial tree cutting time. And by the way straight grained tree is going to be the worse with barber chair. Course I would think that a hardwood wood also be more prone to doing that as well being a stronger wood than say a pine or popal that snap off. Course I only have a holiday inn express degree. A perfect straight grained tree is needs to be cut perfect to not split. Also they split some just hitting the ground. A lower grade non veneer is less like to split with the changing grain. So speaking of straight grain being less likely to split shows the amount of knowledge one has on subject that they are giving advice on.


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

Dale I assume you are also cutting for logs? So how u would get a tree down to ground needs to be a certain way to save the log.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

ah ye got me Mav ha! well I learned something about grain, thank you 

all I know is it is a dangerous thing to do so dont' do it. I'm like star, let the guys who have a sense of cutting do the cutting--I respect their experience and bring them beer and admire their skill with respect and appreciation(like I talk to them ha). When the tree is deboned I carry it off to my lair to oxidize. I am just a log humper.

the OP was probably lucky his chain was sharp too.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

Anybody cutting down a tree should have a good saw with a sharp chain. And anybody cutting a tree that is leaning south and needs to fall north should have studied the situation. Thoroughly. I'd never attach a cable to a tree that was about to fall. A tree falls pretty slowly, but that cable snaps, its going to hit you like a steel bullwhip. Cut you smack in half. And with that winch and bumper at the business end...whew!! I will take everybody's advice based on the general knowledge and intellect they exhibit in all their posts combined. Then I'll do what I know works. If a tree is leaning 5 degrees to the south, you have to stand it up straight in order to begin to make it fall to the north. cut the north side, it's gonna want to fall south. That's just the way it always works here. I suppose the laws of physics are different in different places. Like Neverland.


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

maverickxxx said:


> Dale I assume you are also cutting for logs? So how u would get a tree down to ground needs to be a certain way to save the log.


Sometimes. Everything i cut is on land i own , family owns, or a couple of landlord neighbours so i'm managing everything long-term. I do more culling and thinning than most, and fenceline removal. I cut to get as much out of each tree as i can. It's harder to hurt a log when you're dropping a tree than most people think so i just get it down as safely as i can in a given situation. From hardwood shavers and veneer down to firewood for sale, occasionally pulpwood but i usually keep it to burn myself. Then softwood logs, posts, lumber i sell myself and hemlock lumber i use at home.


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## Raven12 (Mar 5, 2011)

Zong, the uncle of my brother's friend has an ex wife who was married to the cousin of a guy who worked at a saw mill for a week. 

You are doing it wrong!!!


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

zong said:


> I guess safest would be sitting on your butt in front of a computer, looking up youtube videos, and talking about something you have no actual experience with. A lot like some people are about life in general.
> It's like when I try to post pictures and details of how I garden, how I cook, and so on. There are maybe a dozen people on HT that actually want to know anything, and 20,000 that only want to criticize and say "You can't do that"
> Well, I do do that, every day of my life.


Zong, you have beautiful gardens and orchards. I hope you tend them safely. But don't try to tell us you fall timber every day of your life though, because you don't. Anyone cuts like that gets kicked off the job the first time before they kill someone.

It goes wrong so freakin' fast, experienced men know this.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

I cut trees here, whenever I need to or want to. What I said, (and it was obvious) is I do all the things I post about that everybody criticizes and says "you can't do that"in a daily basis. I'm actually living this life, not looking it up and wishing and hoping. And I don't care about people getting kicked off a job. I'm not for hire. Life goes wrong so freaking fast. Driving to the grocery store texting on your phone can go wrong so freaking fast. Sucking down them BigMacs can go wrong so freaking fast.


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

Just saying saying dale someone who drops a few here there is another thing. An your right someone working for u shouldn't cut them like that I wouldn't let someone for me do it. But that's different. It don't sound like Zong is going to change his technique so I gave him a tip to make it safer." Boring at stress point" which is the problem with that technique he uses. So my point is someone that has been doing it one way there entire life with prolly not a lot more to cut down at this stage of homestead that cuts a few a year would prolly be more apt to add one safety step than try to learn a whole new technique by themselves that takes many trees to perfect. I just tried teaching my dad how to bore cut a tree n he just said if he's got any more that are veneer or logs he's going to have me do it he dosnt wanna learn which is fine he gets them to the ground. Most times when people cut a tree in there yard they don't care if it lands in tooth picks just that its not vertical anymore n not on top of something exspensive.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

The actual fact is, the tree is laying exactly where I want it to lay. As are the other 6 trees. I opened an 8 ft section of fence and dropped all the trees exactly there. So, dangerous is in your mind, not mine. I did my project, exactly how I planned to do it. Now, I'm going to work up all the wood and take it into a wood shelter. After it's all done, I'll take some pictures, give measurements, figure cordage, and you guys can sit there, look at the actual photographs and numbers and say "You can't get that much wood out of that few trees" Or tell me how I got it stacked wrong, or tell me it should be out in the weather. Whatever.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

13 year old girl histrionics are never pretty either

ETA speshully when it involves chainsaws and 6000 # trees.


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

Oh I retract all my previous statements Appearntly Zong is telling me n others our way is wrong an he's right. I did not realize Zong was telling ME how to cut a tree. But knowing Zong an his complete inability to take advice an even more so obstance about learning he will prolly continue running his professional logging an tree falling school. Cause if there's one thing I know of Zong he has no desire to learn. @ Zong u can not form a opinion on from some but not all the facts an force it upon me! Ill draw my own conclusions from some of the facts thank you.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Zong, has it occurred to you we are offering you correction because we LIKE you? Perhaps we don't wish to learn you killed yourself with the butt of a tree? Are you here to LEARN as well as show off what you do?

You are not the only one here "living the life," I grew up living it and I still am.

Give up the Drama King act and learn something unless you plan on posting your suicide too.


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## frogmammy (Dec 8, 2004)

It's *THAT* time of the year again, isn't it?

Mon


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

It's amazing how someknow so much with little or no expirnce but still comment. Seems almost like they are posting to antagonize? I think it's been established that that is a dangerous technique to use. What he does from this point should be what's judged. Really if u don't cut trees yourself u really don't know.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

Well, I* DID* get a blood blister. But that was from the cutter I used to clip my guide wire for the top of the fence. 

And I'm not telling anybody their way is wrong. This is how I cut down trees and make them fall where I want them to. I'd just be a lot more scared of a cable whipping around than a tree falling. 
I think there's more than one way to do things. I don't have any problem with other people doing things their way. If it works, I'm interested. If it don't work, not so much.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

maverickxxx said:


> Oh I retract all my previous statements Appearntly Zong is telling me n others our way is wrong an he's right. I did not realize Zong was telling ME how to cut a tree. But knowing Zong an his complete inability to take advice an even more so obstance about learning he will prolly continue running his professional logging an tree falling school. Cause if there's one thing I know of Zong he has no desire to learn. @ Zong u can not form a opinion on from some but not all the facts an force it upon me! Ill draw my own conclusions from some of the facts thank you.


To be utterly annoying and combative, actually in post #8 zong did tell people that notching was wrong, or at least um, crazy, an opinion formed from one experience. So, uh, put that in the file of collective observation of whatever. And yeah, to be utterly blunt (and because zong is defending his behavior so vehemently, like with big giant letters n stuff) I take his tree experience with...whatever. 

Zong post #8--"Because I've seen that fail in the worst way. The weight is going to pull the tree. *As far as I can tell, cutting a wedge out of the dropping side is some sort of psychological hallucination, inducing a false sense of security.* And, above all, I'm a realist."

And why am I being such a witch? Trees KILL. And irresponsible how to about trees KILLS. Or at least causes blood blisters. Ow.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

When you read "As far as I can tell" what does that mean to you?? Because to most people that would mean "As far as *I* can tell" Maybe you somehow transpose yourself into the "I"? I've never heard of that, but I suppose I can start referring to myself in the third person so people will know that "I" don't mean "you". So, "In Zong's experience" then, from now on. 
As to the big giant letters, a woman claimed she had been cutting down trees longer than I've been alive. And I still don't believe it, but, of course, believability and truth apparently don't matter a lot.


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## Vickie44 (Jul 27, 2010)

frogmammy said:


> It's *THAT* time of the year again, isn't it?
> 
> Mon


 
:clap::hysterical::hysterical:


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## Raven12 (Mar 5, 2011)

How ironic coming from the person who preached to me about RMHs and didn't know what smoke back was.

I'm just wondering when she last cut down a tree.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

I dont' want to highjack Zong's thread 

And I dont' have to prove myself with you neither. Enjoy your day.


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## Groene Pionier (Apr 23, 2009)

maverickxxx said:


> Well I guess because I'm on the authority on every subject! Yes it does get annoying for me to be perfect n great in every matter. I have come specifically into this thread to tell Zong how wrong he is! I offer no advice how to do it safer etc... But I did stay at a holiday inn express also I had coffee in a diner where tree cutter down guys go to. An there combined exp adds up to a really really lot so be intaminated! Now I think mavs advice was pretty good being that a bore above a projected split spot moves that stress to a Diffrent point in a tree.


That is what I was thinking... where did all those ppl come from.. all of a sudden out of the woods?
I came here specifically to tell Zong that I think what he did was how the ppl fell a tree in one of the episodes in Wartime Farm. If I am right, it might be an European way to cut trees, and we know that is a very BAD way of doing things. You are warned now Zong


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

Let's see.....Zong's (and apparently a whole bunch of Europeans) been cutting down trees his way and hasn't died yet. Others have been cutting trees down their way and haven't died yet. Me? I hire men in trees to take care of mine.

To each their own.

[youtube]6D9vAItORgE[/youtube]


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

I can draw my own conclusions without the facts thank you.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

Are you saying the European way is a bad way? Man, I was just thinking about going to Europe, too. If I do, will you teach me Dutch and let me wear some of your wooden shoes? I'm a size 15 EEEE which is like 50 in European. I'd like white, please. And take me to that dike where people always putting their finger in. I just want to look and "Tsk" is all. I'll need all natural food, of course. Beer and stuff. You'll need to speak English while I'm learning Dutch. I hope I'm not asking too much. I wouldn't want to insult you by offering to pay you for my stay, either. What do you guys use, guilders or something? Or are you on the Euro? I got one of them.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

Leslie, is that guy in skates and underwear?? Dang, I was gonna dress just like that for my next video on tree pruning.


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

*
*

*I just eat my trees.....
*

*&#8220;Ever eat a pine tree? Many parts are edible&#8221;*

Good ole Euell Gibbons


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## Tommyice (Dec 5, 2010)

zong said:


> Leslie, is that guy in skates and underwear?? Dang, I was gonna dress just like that for my next video on tree pruning.


And I can't wait to see that video and inform you that it's dangerous and just plain wrong to skate around in your skivvies with pruning equipment. I mean you could accidentally prune the wrong limb


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## Groene Pionier (Apr 23, 2009)

If you are not killed by wrongly cut trees, you can be killed by legal prostitution, legally smoking pot, legally marry the same sex, or be on fire by badly made appliances. If that didn't do the trick, you can always legally commit euthanasia. We don't have the right to carry guns and we pay a lot of taxes... welcome to Europe. 
You get everywhere with 1 euro, we have a health care system which is not too expensive and social benefits of all kind. 
Sure I would teach you Dutch if you want too, but it is not necessary, you can speak English where every you go. 
You wouldn't insult me if you offered to pay for your stay, we just go Dutch 

I do recommend you take your own wood for that size 50 for the wooden shoes, and they are usually yellow...


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

No, Zong hasn't died yet. Plenty of people die felling trees on both continents. It's a job with no room for stupid when even the smart, experienced ones die sometimes. Zong can't expect to post something like that and not get called on it and corrected. How would he feel, how would WE feel if someone saw that, posted, "I'm gonna drop my trees just like Zong," then ate the butt of a tree? 

Zong's method of cutting isn't used by anyone but brush crews cutting 3 inch or smaller saplings.

For the record, the biggest trees I've dropped were 8 inch conifers. As a little girl I don't want to run with a chainsaw any bigger than the 425. Maybe someday I'll grow up and be a *real* logger or homesteader like Zong.

Maybe I'll just go Drama Queen to match his Drama King.


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## Raven12 (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm laughing.

Patterns.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

@ Laura: Unlikely, considering your frame of mind. You would need to be open to learning. And somebody that already knows everything won't be needing to learn anything.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Walking away shaking my head.....

I no longer have any faith in the saying, "Nature weeding out the...."


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

Maybe you should instead have faith in "There's more than one way to skin a cat" After all, I too know many platitudes. I just don't practice them as a religion.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

But yet you continue with petty name calling posts. Patterns.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

Everybody that thinks this is unsafe, please post a link to your statistics. I mean, I know you guys have facts to back you up. So, the statistics of death or serious injury caused by cutting trees without notching, versus deaths or serious injuries when notching was done. Since so many people "know" it, should be pretty easy to find the stats.


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## Johnny Dolittle (Nov 25, 2007)

Zong if my dad saw you cutting a tree down without making a face cut he would send you to your bedroom. And I will do the same .... now go to your bedroom.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

This....


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

I've never seen anybody cut a tree down from behind. We always stand to the side, so our sawblade will be cutting the wood. Interesting. I'll not be standing behind any trees while cutting them down. And thats not actually what a statistic is. That's more of a cartoon.

Look, thats how I cut down trees. I appreciate all the "idiot" "stupid" and "natural selection" remarks. Really I do. Good to know how friendly and helpful some of you guys are to point out I'm an idiot, stupid, and should have been taken out by natural selection. I'll always hold those comments near to my heart. 
But, all those tree are exactly where I wanted them. And I'm not dead, or even paralyzed. So, say what you want. I never have gone in anybody's thread and just attacked them out of the blue. I always fight back though. For which I get my fair share of demerits. 
Once again, thanks for the "stupid" "idiot" and everything else. And I'm still waiting on that statistic, which will be a fact, not an opinion. .


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

Wow, graphic image, Cabin Fever!

DH takes trees down in the way he feels they should be, in the safest manner. He studies the tree, then decides how to fell it. Some he uses cables on, others he doesn't. No, none of the cables have broken. In that video, he used two very heavy duty cables. His DB was a professional Logger, owned his own company. Larry the Logger, is the 85 years young, tough old guy, who brought down his skidder to help us on Monday. He observed DH's techniques and told me DH did a good job. They both discussed how dangerous it was and I could only watch at a safe distance.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

zong said:


> Everybody that thinks this is unsafe, please post a link to your statistics. I mean, I know you guys have facts to back you up. So, the statistics of death or serious injury caused by cutting trees without notching, versus deaths or serious injuries when notching was done. Since so many people "know" it, should be pretty easy to find the stats.


What now, Hotshot?
*OSHA*

OSHA has recently revised and expanded its regulations to address all types of logging operations [29 CFR 1910.266], regardless of the end use of the forest products (such as saw logs, veneer bolts, pulpwood, and chips). Employers must be in compliance with all the requirements of this final standard by February 9, 1995.

The revised regulations are notably different from the previous ones and provide for the following:
Additional job and first-aid training for workers.
Expanded uses and types of personal protective equipment.
More stringent requirements for the use of rollover and falling-object protective structures.
*Comprehensive manual felling procedures (including proper techniques for undercuts and backcuts to prevent trees from prematurely twisting off the stump)*
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/95-101/


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

Zong, maybe you should post a video, showing how you fell the trees. I am now very interested to see it. Obviously, you aren't taking them down as it is depicted in the cartoon image...


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## lonelytree (Feb 28, 2008)

lorichristie said:


> Zong, maybe you should post a video, showing how you fell the trees. I am now very interested to see it. Obviously, you aren't taking them down as it is depicted in the cartoon image...


And then post it to http://www.arboristsite.com/ and see what happens.

I have a business license and insurance for such matters as tree removal.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Jagger Jenny of Newport Oregon

http://www.facebook.com/#!/LoggingRiggingMenAndTimberFallers

Why don't you ask some of these folks how to fall trees? Lot's of "My Guys" in the pics.


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

K Laura z is not logging operation does not apply. U obviously are using this opportunity to attack and call him names. U cut some 8" trees big deal. U have in 3 separate posts called him names. U an a few others only post to attack people gang up an offer nothing of substance. Wyld thang already showed her knowledge n got called out on just using words that invoke trees an try to pass that off as knowledge. Because u live in a logging town or whatever dosnt make u one by osmosis. If that was case I'd move next to a neurologist n proctologist to help people like I do now but have more creditbilty


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

Laura, I looked all over your link, I didn't see any statistics. Since I specifically asked for statistics, and you didn't have any, I presume you did the best you could. And pretty pictures. So, why would I ask anybody at all how I want to do stuff?


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## lonelytree (Feb 28, 2008)

For what it is worth. I am not attacking Zong. He has been a great asset to this site. I only wanted to point out that there are safer methods of felling trees. I have many hours of experience in commercial tree removal and always go for the safest method available. I would rather tell a homeowner that it will cost an additional $150 than tell them that they have a hole in their roof or to call 911.


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## defenestrate (Aug 23, 2005)

Zong, I will skip the safety commentary and ask you the question everyone wants the answer to:

In that pic of your torso, is that a Super Mario Brothers 2 shirt?


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

3 pages of whining and complaining. It's like if I had an endless hissyfit because you used a different recipe for biscuits than I do. I can't post a video because now the trees are down. And sadly(apparently for most of you) I'm still alive. And loving it.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

defenestrate said:


> Zong, I will skip the safety commentary and ask you the question everyone wants the answer to:
> 
> In that pic of your torso, is that a Super Mario Brothers 2 shirt?


Yes! good eye. I'm thinking about 4 more washings it's gonna be a blue T-shirt, like so many others, you know there was once a picture on it, but can no longer tell what the picture was.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

maverickxxx said:


> K Laura z is not logging operation does not apply. U obviously are using this opportunity to attack and call him names. U cut some 8" trees big deal. U have in 3 separate posts called him names. U an a few others only post to attack people gang up an offer nothing of substance. Wyld thang already showed her knowledge n got called out on just using words that invoke trees an try to pass that off as knowledge. Because u live in a logging town or whatever dosnt make u one by osmosis. If that was case I'd move next to a neurologist n proctologist to help people like I do now but have more creditbilty


 I don't live in town, but I've lived and worked in the timber since leaving the original family farms at 12 years old and moving to the woods. My education is forestry and trained to be an owner of a logging company. I launched a young faller from the neighborhood in his own logging company last summer. He is doing well on the contracts I got for him. I set choker and run excavator when his hirelings don't show up and the trucks are due.

What Zong posted is dangerous and the definitive of WRONG. Several of us pointing that out is not "ganging up." He doesn't want correct knowledge, he wants us to worship the awesome Zong or he goes into Drama King. Everybody's crediblity can be questioned but his? I think not. He really should stick to growing prunes. You should stick to eating them.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

Leaving home 12 years old and moving in the woods. Thats wrong. you'll kill yourself! Thats not the right way! I got friends that waited til they were 50 to leave home. Ask them if your way is OK. And the OSHa!! They don't say it's OK to leave home at 12!

It would be severely depressing to have somebody like you as a worshipper. If you can't stand for anybody to say "This is how I do it" without having a hissy fit, tough luck. And, that is how I do it.


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

I like the part about prunes !!!!!!

"How I drop Prunes"


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Back a long time ago, there were NOT hospitals nearby! Not to mention that the roads out in the country were rutted dirt roads. And, everybody in the country heated with wood.

An old farmer showed me how he cut wood for his entire life. Well, actually he ws showing my HUSBAND, as he was of another generation and that was just how things were done back then........ didn't bother me a bit: I closly watched it all.

First, he checked the the wind. Mind, on a windy day he never cut at ALL, because winds change without notice. Still, even if there was a slight breeze he did not want the tree falling towards the wind: it can sway the tree back and make the saw bind.

Then, he knelt next to the tree, and he notched the tree towards wherever he wanted it to fall. Then the back cut. And, when he got close to where he thought the tree would go over he cut SLOOOWLY! Because he said he never trusted a tree.

The REASON he used the face cut and all of the precautions was because damage to a tree did not always show: sometimes the heart would be rotten and that would influence the way the tree fell. Sometimes there would be a freak gust of wind and THAT would influence how a tree fell.

At any rate, he explainded that the face cut and the back cut was for healthy trees and a clear place for it to fall. 

If the tree had been obviously damaged (lopsided, lightning struck, partly rotten, whatever), Then he would use TWO guide lines to guide it, in the shape of a V so that there was nothing but clear ground ahead. Because sometimes a person would misjudge the height of a tree and that would make a problem for whatever the guide line was tied to. And, he always had a couple of wedges along, but he said he rarely had to use them unless the tree was a damaged one. *IF* he used the wedges, it was always used without the chainsaw in the cut. He took the chainsaw out, put the wedges in, and tapped the wedges alternately with a maul or a ledge hammer until the tree went over. 

How NOT! to drop a damaged tree.........(EDITED OUT FOR LANGUAGE) notice how, because of the damage, the tree rolls at the last second. Notice that the fallers did not use a face cut to guide the fall which MIGHT have helped, did not use wedges to guide it further which MIGHT have helped some more, and that instead of having a clear place to drop the tree the idiots left their truck too close to where the tree was expected to fall.....

In the words of the old gent who was teaching us: "NEVER! trust a tree! Never stand behind a tree, and always be alert to step out of the way of a tree."


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

Yea I hoped a wagon train heading west when I was 11 1/2 to help settle the west n chase off ******. I also snuck aboard a ship sailing to the new world


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

Hey Terri, if that old guy cuts trees that way, that's cool. I got no problem with how other people do stuff. And if you want to bake your biscuits at 350, I don't care about that either. I do mine at 450, but to each his own. It's a free country. Apparently those cartoon people in a post are the only ones who stand behind a tree to cut it. Not sure how that would work out.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Gee Mav, I think we've already established I felled trees relative to the size of my saw which is the correct saw for a person of my size and weight. 5'3" 108 pounds. That doesn't qualify me as a professional timber faller. I worked in the woods on crews in most other jobs, but I know how all of them are to be done safely. 

Now Mav, how many logger funerals do you go to per year and how many men have you personally seen killed or seriously injured by a tree jumping off the stump?

We can alse establish I am not an urban or suburban transplant or wannabee, but have always "lived the life" as some of you put it.

Zong can be a stubborn old fool if he wants, and demand "proof," but dangerous information is not going to go unchallenged. I think it's been proven, it's not my credibility that's in question here.


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

Terri I won't report u for posting a video where they use a fbomb in it but that tree was rotted in the center all the black in the center there also was nothing showing what technique they used. U did post another tecnique used. It's also a old method that's how I used to cut.


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

Yes your creditbilty is in ? When u say uve been logging since your 12. 
So by your ratios of height n weight I shouldn't be running the saws that I do unless half Sasquatch n minimum of 8' tall. 
Size dosnt qualify your saw size it's ability. 
How many logger funerals u go to dosnt help prove wrong either quite the opposite. 
Also we only have your word for it the 12 year old logging girl that left home.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

maverickxxx said:


> Terri I won't report u for posting a video where they use a fbomb in it but that tree was rotted in the center all the black in the center there also was nothing showing what technique they used. U did post another tecnique used. It's also a old method that's how I used to cut.


 WHOOPS! 

Maverick I thank you: I pulled that video!

I did notice, however, that the outside of the tree looked sound. It looked to me that it was the heart of the tree that was rotted. Which comes back to what the old gent said "Never trust a tree".


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Maverick, I do not think that you read Laura's posts in their entirety. Nowhere did she claim that all of her experince ended at age 12.


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

It started at twelve


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Folks, please remember the guiding principle here: "BE NICE"! That means, among other things, that nobody gets to mock the other person.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

That fellow was mighty lucky he didn't have to buy a birdbath.


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## Echoesechos (Jan 22, 2010)

I would love to have one of those burls in the picture. Would make a really nice table top....


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

Terri I do a bore cut which is safer than back cut. U still notch in direction u want to fall it but from there u bore into the center behind your hinge an cut toward back of the tree if your saw has enough power or u choose u can run right out back side or leave a couple Inchs have a cup of coffee an cut the rest from back side. Doing that wrks much better on rotted trees to. Alt of times strength of them is on outside so it's safer


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

So Terri name calling an mocking by Laura is okay just not anyone else. No one seriously belives she left home at twelve an started logging. She's master logger but dosnt have any of the knowledge seems strange.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

I never said I left home, home left the farm and went to the timber when subdivisions encroached the farms. We went back to the backwoods roots branch of the family.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

maverickxxx said:


> So Terri name calling an mocking by Laura is okay just not anyone else. No one seriously belives she left home at twelve an started logging. She's master logger but dosnt have any of the knowledge seems strange.


 Were you under the impression that you were the only one to have your posts deleted?

Oh, yes. What is a bore cut?


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

zong said:


> Hey Terri, if that old guy cuts trees that way, that's cool. I got no problem with how other people do stuff. And if you want to bake your biscuits at 350, I don't care about that either. I do mine at 450, but to each his own. It's a free country. Apparently those cartoon people in a post are the only ones who stand behind a tree to cut it. Not sure how that would work out.


Here, I would think other folks would realize their differing opinions are absolutely beating a dead horse :hammer:

Zong, I respect you absolutely have the right to do things your way. I didn't hear of you putting any one but yourself at any risk, either. Too bad you don't have a video, as I did want to see the action.

I bake my bisquits at 375F or 350F convection :cowboy: However, these days, we make Gluten Free pancakes, fried w/pork lard in an iron skillet.

Two hours ago, our Truck Driver got here with his self-loading truck. He pulled out with a full truckload bound for the mill with DH following behind. I'll be interested to hear the grading & scaling information. They were all Cedar, most big ones, cut 37' or a bit over. I took pics and video, will post later.


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

I put bore cut description on 108


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

Terri said:


> Were you under the impression that you were the only one to have your posts deleted?
> 
> Oh, yes. What is a bore cut?


A Barrow,,,,,,,:hysterical:


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

lorichristie said:


> Here, I would think other folks would realize their differing opinions are absolutely beating a dead horse :hammer:
> 
> Zong, I respect you absolutely have the right to do things your way. I didn't hear of you putting any one but yourself at any risk, either. Too bad you don't have a video, as I did want to see the action.
> 
> ...


Well, Lorie, I suppose I could go on and on about how you'll kill yourself with those 375* biscuits, it's my way or the highway, but.... I'm gonna try to make some at 375. I did note that the yeast biscuits I made cook at a lower temperature. For longer, also. So, there is obviously room for differing opinions and methods in biscuits. At least in my world. Do you make biscuits with self-rising flour at 375? or are they made from plain flour? I'd hate for some people to find out, but I do all my own cooking without a hazmat getup, too. (don't tell the OSHA)


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

Here we call it a plunge cut were you plunge the blade of the saw low into the trunk to check for rot before making any of the cuts. If you find rot, you adjust your undercut placement and cutting angles to offset weight differential. You use tree jacks if tree placement is a critical issue.

Every tree on my place was in reach of a building. 5 of the trees were more than 5 feet across on the butt. They had to be plunged. Yay, no rot!

Bullbuck BabyDaddy told me I could bull the job myself and if these wild boys could drop the trees without smashing anything, to write their references and send them north into the money. They put every tree right where they wanted but none of them want to go north. LoggerBoy took the 5 additional contracts I got for him, and he's picking up more, and buying decent equipment.

Bonus, I did what I was told couldn't be done, I got a firewood crew without having to resort to illegals.


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## unregistered5595 (Mar 3, 2003)

lorichristie said:


> Here, I would think other folks would realize their differing opinions are absolutely beating a dead horse :hammer:


I enjoy reading all the opinions, and the tips for baking and tenderizing meat.


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## maverickxxx (Jan 25, 2011)

How long did it take u to google that laura


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

Feather In The Breeze said:


> I enjoy reading all the opinions, and the tips for baking and tenderizing meat.


The other stuff is interesting, but whoa on the overkill on telling Zong he is wrong. Some are not nice posts, too.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

Hey, I'm bidding on a special "be an expert on stuff you never done" license on Ebay right now. So, I expect that by 10:30 Friday morning, I'll be giving hints to married women about how to keep their husbands happy. Since I never been married or had a husband either one. And breast feeding, too. I ain't talking about chicken, either.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2013)

Hey Lori, there is a really big tree in the back yard that I think could fall on the house, so, next time my daughter comes and it's not windy, I'll make a video of me dropping that tree on the gamelands instead of my drainfield. Don't worry, I've already cleared all the tree dropping with the gamelands, as long as I'm not cutting their trees, they don't mind me dropping trees on their side. BUT, I'll post the video and send the link via PM's to avoid some of that craziness. I'm going to have to do it the exact same way I always do, and I'll not edit it to take out the dead spots where I'm looking and thinking or anything. I think you'll be surprised at how simple and effective it really is. And quick.


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## Laura (May 10, 2002)

I don't have to google anything. I am who I say I am. The way you described checking for rot, if there was any, the tree would spin on your head making the undercut.

Just because neither you or zong have credibilty doesn't make other people liars.


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## L.A. (Nov 15, 2007)

"Even if you win,,,,Your still,,,,,,,,,"

Oh nevermind,,,,,,,,,,,,less,,,,,,


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

"The neverEnding story" was great for my kids, but I am locking this thread......


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