# Has your failure rate increased since Ball changed their lids?



## stef (Sep 14, 2002)

Is it me or is it the quality of the silver lids Ball now produces?

I've had two fails today. Was making spaghetti sauce and was absolutely scrupulous in making sure the rim was clean, everything the right temp and canned the right time. So far I've had two lids not seal out of 18 jars.

Right now I'm canning six pints of beans so will have to see if any of them fail.


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## strawberrygirl (Feb 11, 2009)

We had a bad batch of lids last year. Some of the lids were actually bent up slightly. Almost as is someone had popped them open with a can opener. I wrote the company and they sent me some coupons for free boxes.

ETA: Other than the bad lids I didn't notice an increase in failure rates.


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## LonelyNorthwind (Mar 6, 2010)

Absolutely, I've had more failure with the new lids - Ball and Kerr both. I lost so much last year I've decided to buy tattler lids whenever I have extra cash, the new metal lids are worthless. Hmm, Tattler lids are really expensive, the paranoid in me is wondering if Ball, Kerr and Tattler lids are from the same corporation. When I called to complain about the Ball lids last year my supplier told me it wouldn't do any good to switch to Kerr 'cause they're both the same company, made in the same factory. If they keep making poor quality product we may have no choice but to fork over extra cash for more durable lids, maybe that's what they're after. The rings are pretty cheap quality anymore either, seems one use and they rust.
Sometimes the harder we try the behinder we get.


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## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

I never canned with the old style, and have had very, very few failures. I can all sorts of stuff, BWB and Pressure. I think I've had a total of less than 15 failures in three years canning from 30 - 60 dozen jars a year.


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## sewserious (Apr 2, 2010)

Nope, had 2 failures last year, and they were the gold lids.


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## stef (Sep 14, 2002)

Macybaby said:


> I never canned with *the old style*, and have had very, very few failures. I can all sorts of stuff, BWB and Pressure. I think I've had a total of less than 15 failures in three years canning from 30 - 60 dozen jars a year.


What is 'the old style'?


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## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

I'm not sure what the old style is, but keep having people talk about how it got changed a few years back (before I got back into canning) and that the "new" ones aren't as good.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Yes- I've found that the smallest unevenness in the thinner layer of platic (rubber?) around the edge will be a failure. I look at the seal and any questionable ones are put aside for use in freezing in jars.


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## campfiregirl (Mar 1, 2011)

I haven't had a problem with Ball or Kerr, but about 20% failure using the Golden Harvest lids that came with a case of jars at Big Lots last year. Mom had the same problem. They're the gold ones with no markings on the top. I won't use the lids again, but the new jars/rings are still worth the price even if I have to throw away the lids or use them for dry/freezer storage.


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## Bambitski (Mar 16, 2012)

I had a whole batch of tomatoes ruin. And some of my pork popped too. I have been canning for years and this is the first time I have ever had problems. But last year was the first time I had to buy new lids in three years. What did they do?


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## stef (Sep 14, 2002)

Bambitski said:


> I had a whole batch of tomatoes ruin. And some of my pork popped too. I have been canning for years and this is the first time I have ever had problems. But last year was the first time I had to buy new lids in three years. What did they do?


I did some split peas and lentils yesterday. Plain, just water, no seasonings, no grease on the rims...brand new box of lids. One failed. 

I called the number on the Ball box and spoke w. someone called Sherri. We had a very polite conversation and I asked how, if at all, the lids have changed since they went from gold to silver. I also asked if they have had more complaints about sealing failures since the change. She couldn't really answer my questions, but she said she would pass on my concerns that the amount of rubber (?) (the soft material that seals) is not enough any more. She asked if I boil the lids and I told her I just heat them real hot, no boil. (which she agreed was the right thing to do)


Anyway, no real answers to share with you, but she made note of my comments and said she would send me a coupon for a box of lids. Perhaps, if enough of us who feel the lids are not the quality they once were would give them a call, they might be persuaded to increase the sealer. The toll free number is on the lid boxes.


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## paintlady (May 10, 2007)

I have not had failures with the new lids- however- I am getting tired of the dinged up rings as the packaging is so flimsy. I wish they would go back to the boxes instead of plastic wrapped half boxes. I complained to the company ( Jarden) last year and they sent me some coupons. I still hate the new packaging. Maybe if enough people complain they will change things.


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## Kbellebear (Apr 11, 2012)

When i canned 12 jars of salsa i had two fail. One was my fault as there was a tiny drop of salsa on the rim that i missed. When i looked at the other lid though i could see some noticeable uneveness in the rubber. I didn't call Ball to complain, but probably shoild have.


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## goatlady (May 31, 2002)

When you compare the old style "gold" lids with the new style "silver" lids you will notice the metal lid itself is much thinner on the silver lids AND the "rubber" sealing material is also much thinner on the silver lids. I doubt they will hold up as well as the older ones do.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

My normal failure rate with the gold lids was less than 5% (normally my fault); with the new silver lids my failure rate is nearly up to 20%... yup, a full fifth of my lids don't seal properly, that's at least 1-2 failures in EVERY load! I haven't run a load that didn't have a failure since the switch. I've gone through 3 boxes that I purchased separately, so it's not just one bad batch of lids.

The new silver lids from Jarden (Ball, Kerr, & Bernardin) are thinner than the older gold lids, and in addition to the sealing compound being thinner I think they may have changed the formula. Everything is thinner these days... the jars, the lids, the sealing compound, even the rings. I think the combination of a thinner jar rim and narrower & thinner sealing compound makes getting a good seal more difficult, and the thinner lid and band allows the lid to flex too easily and breaks the already tenuous seal.

With prices going up and quality going down, I'm getting more and more inclined to go back to the European style bale & gasket style canning jars... or to consider other commercial food jars with single-use one-piece metal lids.

Tattler isn't owned by Jarden the last I heard


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## mammabooh (Sep 1, 2004)

I haven't had any failures for several years. I buy the lids in sleeves of 300-some from an Amish bulk food store. The lids are gold, but they don't say anything on them. I don't know what brand they are, but I can find out the next time I go if any of you are interested.


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## strawberrygirl (Feb 11, 2009)

mammabooh said:


> I haven't had any failures for several years. I buy the lids in sleeves of 300-some from an Amish bulk food store. The lids are gold, but they don't say anything on them. I don't know what brand they are, but I can find out the next time I go if any of you are interested.


That would be great! Thank you. We don't have any Amish bulk food stores here, but maybe I can find them online.


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## mammabooh (Sep 1, 2004)

strawberrygirl said:


> That would be great! Thank you. We don't have any Amish bulk food stores here, but maybe I can find them online.


Ok...I MIGHT even be able to call them and ask. I'll check and see if there is a number for the store and let you know.


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## mammabooh (Sep 1, 2004)

I don't know where you are in Pennsylvania, strawberrygirl, but here is a listing of Amish bulk food stores in your state.

Weaver Markets Inc. 
Rt. 272 & Rt. 896 
Adamstown, PA 
Phone: (717) 484-4302

Peightâs Store 
136 Peight Store Lane 
Belleville, PA 
Phone: (717) 935-2922

Amish Barn 
Bird-in-Hand, PA 
Phone: (717) 393-4233

Amish Country Market 
3029 Old Philadelphia Pike 
Bird in Hand, PA 
Phone: (717) 393-4233

Kauffman Fruit Farm 
3097 Old Philadelphia Pike 
Bird in Hand, PA 
Phone: (717) 768-7112

The Kauffman Family Marketplace 
1718 Smith Township State Rd. 
Burgettstown, PA 15021 
Phone: (724) 947-9682 
Website: Outdoor Amish Wooden Swing Sets near Pittsburgh - Treated Lawn Furniture - Bulk Foods & Deli | Kauffman Marketplace

Clover Dale 
26499 Hwy 408 
Cambridge Spring, PA 
Phone: (814) 398-1926

Finneyâs Deli & Bulk Foods 
24989 Hwy 99 
Cambridge Spring, PA 
Phone: (814) 398-9222

Beemanâs Baked Goods 
168 Wolfâs Bridge Road 
Carlisle, PA 
Phone: (717) 245-0139

Martinâs Country Market 
1717 Main Street 
Ephrata, PA 
Phone: (717) 738-3754

Frenchville Country Store 
28766 Frenchville Karthaus Hwy 
Frenchville, PA 
Phone: (814) 263-7250

Dutchmanâs Country Market 
365 Rt. 41 
Gap, PA 
Phone: (610) 593-6080

Esh Foods 
58 Hatville Rd. 
Gordonville, PA 
Phone: (717) 768-8542

Glickâs Bulk & Discount 
5831 Hwy 286 E 
Indiana, PA 
Phone: (724) 349-5453

Hetrickâs Bulk & Discount 
5381 Hwy 286E 
Indiana, PA 
Phone: (724) 349-5453

Darrenkampâs Market 
106 Willow Valley Square 
Lancaster, PA 
Phone: (717) 464-2708

Alderferâs Food Pantry 
RR3 Box 162A 
Troy, PA 
Phone: (570) 297-1015

Zimmermanâs Bulk Grocery 
968 Hickory Bottom Road 
Woodbury, PA 
Phone: (814) 766-2511


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

I have only had a few self-inflicted seal failures using the bulk-tube gold lids that I purchased from Lehman's. I think they are the old-style Ball lids even though they aren't printed with the logo.


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## Macybaby (Jun 16, 2006)

About a year ago I cut up some lids and posted on this thread (it's down a bit) In case anyone is curious. 

an older canning lid thread


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

OK - I just used my DH's loading scale, micrometer and calipers 

The 2009 gold lids and post 2009 silver lids do indeed weigh nearly the same and have nearly the same thickness... certainly within acceptable tolerances.

The sealing compound on the gold lids is both deeper and wider than the silver lids (nearly twice). I scraped off all the compound and weighed it, the compound on the gold weighs nearly twice as on the silver. The weight difference could be simply less of it, or a combination of less and different formulation... I couldn't find any information on the formulation of the sealing compounds.

The embossed "seating" edge on the gold lids is deeper than the silver lids, so the silver lids could be losing rigidity from that alone.

I tested the lids with several different magnets. The gold lids were noticeably "stickier" (don't have a tool to measure the resistance/release pressure -- sorry). So, it appears that the metal formulation in the lids has changed. If they are using less steel or more malleable steel in the silver lids, or have increased the percentage of a more malleable metal in the silver lids, then the lids could be less rigid.

So... I need to figure out a way to test the rigidity that's more scientific than the fact that I can easily bend the silver lids with one hand while it takes two hands to bend the gold ones. But there's no doubt in my mind that the silver ones are less rigid and bend a lot easier. 

Also, the rims of the old jars are nearly twice as thick as the rims of the new jars. I'm going to do some test batches to see what the failure rates are with 1) old/gold, 2) old/silver; 3) new/gold, and 4) new/silver to see if the combination of factors has an impact. Logically, we can assume that thicker jar rims and sealing compound would produce a better and more consistent seal because you have more surface contact... I'll see if that proves true. (just hope I don't run out of gold lids LOL)


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## strawberrygirl (Feb 11, 2009)

Thank you for the list mammabooh. I appreciate that. Looks like they are all quite far from me. I am in the far northeast corner of Pa. Right on the Ny border.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

You know, maybe I attributed seal failure to my own lack of diligence, but now that this has been brought up, I've had more seal failures in the last 9 months or so than I have ever had, ever, and almost all the canning I have done has been with the new silver lids. Thats disheartning. I have several hundred boxes of those.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

OK - ran 4 loads, 2 in the pressure canner and 2 in BWB. Each load had 8 quarts (just plain water 1/2" headspace). Each load had 2 of each: 1) old jar & gold lid, 2) new jar & gold lid, 3) old jar & silver lid, and 4) new jar & silver lid.

Load 1: Pressure Canner 75 mins @ 10 lbs
1 combo 4 failed to seal, 1 combo 4 unsealed during cooldown, all others were fine

Load 2: Pressure Canner 90 mins @ 10 lbs
1 combo 4 unsealed during cooldown, all others were fine

Load 3: BWB 20 mins
1 combo 4 failed to seal, 1 combo 2 failed to seal, 1 combo 3 unsealed during cooldown, 1 combo 4 unsealed during cooldown, 

Load 4: BWB 45 mins
Both combo 4s unsealed during cooldown, and 1 combo 3 failed to seal

Summary:
Old jar with gold lids failed 0 out of 8 jars
New jars with gold lids failed 1 out of 8 jars
Old jars with silver lids failed 2 out of 8 jars
New jars with silver lids failed 7 out of 8 jars

On the ones that didn't seal right out of the canner, the lid was noticeably warped by vacuum and had lifted the rim.

On the ones that unsealed during cooldown:
All silver lids were noticeably warped, and PC 90 min one actually warped violently enough to pop off the jar onto the counter instead of pinging.
The one gold lid on the new jar sealed temporarily, but then lost vacuum a couple minutes after the ping but it didn't deform.

My unscientific conclusion -- the combination of the thinner rims in the new jars, with less compound and less rigid silver lid is a recipe for failures, especially at lower temps and shorter durations (the only one that didn't fail was the PC 90 min). Less compound and less rigid silver lids increased failure on thicker rim jars at lower temps and durations. The thicker compound and more rigid gold lids could seal both rim thicknesses, but the only gold failure was on the thinner jar rim for shortest duration and lowest temperature (about 5% - which was my normal baseline).


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## prairiegirl (Nov 2, 2004)

mammabooh said:


> I haven't had any failures for several years. I buy the lids in sleeves of 300-some from an Amish bulk food store. The lids are gold, but they don't say anything on them. I don't know what brand they are, but I can find out the next time I go if any of you are interested.


I've been purchasing lids from our Amish bulk food stores here in IN for the last few years. They are as mammabooh describes - gold, without any writing. I feel they are thicker than the Ball lids I've purchased. I've never used Kerr as my Mom and Aunt had trouble with Kerr when I was young.


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## sewserious (Apr 2, 2010)

PlicketyCat said:


> On the ones that unsealed during cooldown:
> All silver lids were noticeably warped, and PC 90 min one actually warped violently enough to pop off the jar onto the counter instead of pinging.


I have a question about this. How can the lid pop off the jar if the ring is still on it? Did you remove the rings before the jars had finished cooling?


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

sewserious said:


> I have a question about this. How can the lid pop off the jar if the ring is still on it? Did you remove the rings before the jars had finished cooling?


I thought the jars were cooled completely on this batch so I removed the rings. The lid popped off maybe 10 minutes after that. I did open the door right before then, so it may have been hit with a cold blast of wind; but all the jars were together on the counter and this one was toward the center:shrug:


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## sewserious (Apr 2, 2010)

PlicketyCat said:


> I thought the jars were cooled completely on this batch so I removed the rings. The lid popped off maybe 10 minutes after that. I did open the door right before then, so it may have been hit with a cold blast of wind; but all the jars were together on the counter and this one was toward the center:shrug:


Okay, just wondered. I usually let my jars cool for 12 to 14 hours before I take the rings off.


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## PlicketyCat (Jul 14, 2010)

sewserious said:


> Okay, just wondered. I usually let my jars cool for 12 to 14 hours before I take the rings off.


I normally let them cool overnight, but this was just a test and I needed the counter space


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## sewserious (Apr 2, 2010)

PlicketyCat said:


> I normally let them cool overnight, but this was just a test and I needed the counter space


Well, if you didn't cool them properly, then you can't really call it a failure!


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## Badger (Jun 11, 2010)

Last November I canned 28 quarts of white beans with ham chunks. They all sealed and everything was fine. I have used several of them and they were fine. Last week I went to get a jar to make my lunch and the lid was loose. I got to checking and 5 lids in that batch were loose. These were the silver wide mouth Kerr. They were stored in a climate controlled pantry. I checked a couple hundred other jars and no problems. These were from a case of lids my wife picked up somewhere. I think I'll stick with the bulk lids from the Amish salvage store.


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## stef (Sep 14, 2002)

Update: I first posted about this on April 23rd and called the Ball company on April 27th after fails in two separate canning sessions. Today I received a coupon for a free box of lids.

For those of you who feel that the lids are not the quality they used to be, I would encourage you to give them a call. 

The toll free number is: 

800-240-3340

It's good to discuss our experiences here, but it would also be helpful to contact Ball personally. Your voice really does matter.


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## Jan in CO (May 10, 2002)

Thank you for doing the test and posting the results! I've had about the same results, and did call the company about how the new jars I'd bought had the lids on so tightly, they seemed to pop off violently when I unscrewed them for the first time for washing. The sealant was really indented, like it had been previously used. I'm assuming it's a pressure difference from where the jars were made and here, but they assured me that all their products were given quality checks before leaving the factory, so they didn't feel there was a problem. HOWEVER, several of those lids have failed to seal, so I feel there is a problem. They did send me one $5 coupon, but I'm doing as much with tattler lids as I can. FWIW, Once in a while, one of those doesn't seal, either, and I'm really careful.


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