# what is wrong with memorization?



## cindyc

This is a little bit of a rant, but not really... It is not directed at anybody and I'll stop talking before I let it become an argument, but I really don't understand! I get so tired of hearing how bad "rote" memorization is! Memorization is foundational! It is like people think that if you memorize something you MUST not acutally understand it... therefore memory and repetition is bad. That is simply NOT true! No, memory is not learning to think... It was never designed to teach thinking, but it sure makes thinking easier once you get to higher levels of a subject. 

Here is a personal example...
My kids actually compete on math competition teams and I can tell you memorization is a BIG part of it. EVERY one of the questions is a thinking question, a word problem, and a trick question. EVERY one. They not only have to have basic facts memorized but pages and pages of geometrical formulas, theorums, square and cube roots, fraction to decimal to percent conversions... They don't have time to have to figure that stuff out in their head b/c the problem itself, figuring out how to attack it, and dealing with very large numbers has to take place FAST and ACCURATELY. Believe me they are thinking on a higher level than they would EVER be thinking if they weren't doing these competitions. They wouldn't be doing these competitons if they didn't have facts memorized (and then some)! The stuff they have to memorize is called the "tool box". That is as good of a definition as I can think of to explain WHY memorization is important. It is a TOOL you use in COMBINATION with understanding that brings about the TOTAL package of COMPETENCY. One without the other is incomplete IMO, especially in maths!

OK, so those who don't think memory is important... convince me. I don't see it.
Cindyc.


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## PromisedLand

Ever wonder why kids from Indian families do so well in the spelling bees? I have heard that much of their education is based on rote memory. We would do well to value that method and increase our use of it (as a means to an end of course).


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## Callieslamb

Memorization is only bad if thre is only a list of memorized items in your brain and can't solve a problem with what you have memorized. In other words, you have to know how to use those mathematical formulas. What about rote memorizationg for but for history or science? Just a list of memorized facts isn't the kind of information that leads to true education.

So, when people talk about memorization being 'bad', I am not sure they are thinking 'math formulas' but more history, literature, and science. With each subject there is an element of memorization -but when that is all there is....can you truly be educated? No.

I think it important to memorize verses, poems, sayings etc as part of education in the same was as classical music being mathematical and listening to it helps you learn.


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## cindyc

Callieslamb said:


> Memorization is only bad if thre is only a list of memorized items in your brain and can't solve a problem with what you have memorized. In other words, you have to know how to use those mathematical formulas. What about rote memorizationg for but for history or science? Just a list of memorized facts isn't the kind of information that leads to true education.
> 
> So, when people talk about memorization being 'bad', I am not sure they are thinking 'math formulas' but more history, literature, and science. With each subject there is an element of memorization -but when that is all there is....can you truly be educated? No.
> 
> I think it important to memorize verses, poems, sayings etc as part of education in the same was as classical music being mathematical and listening to it helps you learn.


Memory work is just a foundation to build on. We don't do memorizing of dates in history, but we do connect people with eras, thought processes, that sort of thing. So when somebody says "the french helped us in the revolutionary war" you go to your memory bank for that era of time any you go "Oh, the french and the english were having some trouble over several things at that time so that makes sense". Then you have CONNECTED two peices of information that you would not have connected without the memory work. In that case, NOT memorizing things would actually impede independent connections and understanding of the time. How about connecting an author to a historical time? Knowing that Dickens lived during the industrialization of england tells you something about both his writing and about history when you read his books. It gives you better tools for critical analysis of both! 

Grammar was never meant to be memorized just for writing complete sentences! Kids who are read to will do that naturally in many cases. It was meant to be memorized for understanding! If you can find a noun, a verb, a gerund... you can read Pigrams Progress in it's original archaic english and understand it without having to have someone else translate it into modern english for you! Add to that root words from Latin, and Greek, and you can FIGURE OUT the meaning of EXTREMELY complicated writing for yourself without it having to be spoon fed to you, but you have to FIRST memorize the roots, and the basics of grammar. 
Whats more, if you can find it in english, you can find it in french if you are studying that, or spanish, or any of the romance languages that use those particular grammar forms and roots. NOW you have the skills to "think out" something basic about MANY languages because you know how to find a NOUN and you know a few definitions in a language of origin! It starts with "rote memory" though! 
OK, this is long, sorry... I hope I am making my point in a good way. I just think this is overlooked as a skill/tool in learning. 
And I do agree with you Callieslamb about memorizing poems, verses, sayings, too. If you don't want to call it "memory" call it "drama", but it is important.  
Cindyc.


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## Terri

When I try to memorize too much, I forget bits of it. 

Your kids do not. Good for them! 

More than one method needs to be used, for those of us who CANNOT accomplish one type of learning.


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## Nel frattempo

We do not do any "memorization" - none. To us it is way too boring - besides being punitive, restrictive and controlling. My older boys were in a private school for early years and memorization was about all they did. It was frustrating and boring. When we started Homeschooling full time, I worried about not doing the memorizing, but quickly discovered there was no need. My youngest son is about grade 4 / 5 and we have not found it necessary to use memorizing with him either. If he wants to do so as a method of learning, it is his choice and he did use flash cards for multiplication tables, but it was his choice. 

To me I think memorizing can be a good tool available, but should not be a forced method of learning. All those dates, names and whatever else is being "memorized" to spit back out on a test is just "busy work" and to be avoided.

I think it is up to each student and family to decide what works. For us, memorizing is not a good tool and so we do not use it and it has not slowed down or hurt (academically) any of our 3 students.


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## DocM

Rote memorization does not teach someone to think. It does have a place; math facts for instance. Memorization is not the foundation of logical thought though, it's the foundation of brainwashing.


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## bumpus

.
One of the best actors of all times who got standing ovations, and people really liked him, but he used the same memory problem as an excuse to his advantage.

He always said in his last years *I don't remember, I just don't remember.* when the news people would ask him an important question.

But in his final days I heard him make a remark to the news media not to long before he died.

He correct the news people by saying *" Now wait a minute I Distinctly Remember " * and he correct the news report.

That man was very famous and used the I don't remember to protect himself, and later would only remembered what was important to him.

His name was Ronald Regan and he disguised himself as President of the U.S.A. being an actor at heart, and people ate it up like hot cakes.

I remember him being this way ! ! !


bumpus
.


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## hisenthlay

I'm not an HSer, but I think this is an interesting topic. I wanted to chime in to agree with cindy, and to say that I think in many instances, memorization is the beginning of learning--necessary building blocks--but not the whole picture. We all "memorized" our ABCs so that when we got to Run, Spot, run, we could recognize that R was a letter that made a certain sound, and so on. Without memorization, how do you efficiently learn a foreign language? It makes sense to memorize that manzana means apple and naranja means orange--then, after memorizing them, you do exercises using those words in conversation, etc. so they become ingrained past "rote memorization". 

Again like Cindy said, memorization is also great when you need a quick recall of something. For example, I didn't have to do a ton of memorizing in law school, because it's rare that I'll need to know some fact on the spot. What's more important is that I'm aware of the basic issues and principles, and that I know how and where to find more information about them. DH, on the other hand, had to do lots of memorizing in med school, because he does need quick recall when dealing with patients on a daily basis. He has to understand everything, too, but if he has to look up what drug does what every time or what symptoms relate to what various diseases or how many mgs of something to administer, he'd have real problems. 

I see memorization as mental push-ups. It's not a complicated/high order exercise like doing gymnastics or riding a horse, but it's good for your brain.


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## bumpus

.
Many people remember a whole lot of things, but they can not figure out hardly any thing important without a calcuator or a computer. 
And most of them have no common sense, so they look to someone else who does.

Most people do not know, all of what they think they know, about what the know.

They just think they do, and that is because they do not really remember.

Don't you remember being taught this in the past, 
or did you forget, and not remember ? ? ?


bumpus
.


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## cindyc

hisenthlay said:


> I'm not an HSer, but I think this is an interesting topic. I wanted to chime in to agree with cindy, and to say that I think in many instances, memorization is the beginning of learning--necessary building blocks--but not the whole picture. We all "memorized" our ABCs so that when we got to Run, Spot, run, we could recognize that R was a letter that made a certain sound, and so on. Without memorization, how do you efficiently learn a foreign language? It makes sense to memorize that manzana means apple and naranja means orange--then, after memorizing them, you do exercises using those words in conversation, etc. so they become ingrained past "rote memorization".
> 
> Again like Cindy said, memorization is also great when you need a quick recall of something. For example, I didn't have to do a ton of memorizing in law school, because it's rare that I'll need to know some fact on the spot. What's more important is that I'm aware of the basic issues and principles, and that I know how and where to find more information about them. DH, on the other hand, had to do lots of memorizing in med school, because he does need quick recall when dealing with patients on a daily basis. He has to understand everything, too, but if he has to look up what drug does what every time or what symptoms relate to what various diseases or how many mgs of something to administer, he'd have real problems.
> 
> I see memorization as mental push-ups. It's not a complicated/high order exercise like doing gymnastics or riding a horse, but it's good for your brain.


THANK YOU! You are much better at stating the case than I am. But thta is my point exactly.
Cindyc.


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## hisenthlay

cindyc said:


> THANK YOU! You are much better at stating the case than I am. But thta is my point exactly.
> Cindyc.


 Thanks, but I thought your explanation was great.  The example of the math competition is perfect, and is exactly the same sort of thing DH has to do at work--quick recall of memorized facts, then synthesizing them into a diagnosis and treatment plan appropriate for each case. I'd say maybe your kids should consider becoming doctors, if it wasn't an increasingly thankless and grueling line of work.... :help:


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## Cheryl in SD

I think memorization is great. Some things my children memorize easily and others they just don't. For instance, the twins win competitions for Bible verse memory, but although we have tried to memorize (using every memory techinque I can find) math facts, they just don't get it. I do think it is important to memorize things like math facts & parts of speach, so we will keep trying.


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## cindyc

hisenthlay said:


> Thanks, but I thought your explanation was great.  The example of the math competition is perfect, and is exactly the same sort of thing DH has to do at work--quick recall of memorized facts, then synthesizing them into a diagnosis and treatment plan appropriate for each case. I'd say maybe your kids should consider becoming doctors, if it wasn't an increasingly thankless and grueling line of work.... :help:


  I do have one who wants to be a Vet. Does that count?

Cindyc.


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## cindyc

Cheryl in SD said:


> I think memorization is great. Some things my children memorize easily and others they just don't. For instance, the twins win competitions for Bible verse memory, but although we have tried to memorize (using every memory techinque I can find) math facts, they just don't get it. I do think it is important to memorize things like math facts & parts of speach, so we will keep trying.


I have a good memory technique book. I will try to get it back from the lady who has it on Friday, and peruse it for ya if you want. Maybe there are some more things to try. It has been helpful to us, anyway.  They do get mental blocks from time to time...

Cindyc.


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## cindyc

Nel frattempo said:


> We do not do any "memorization" - none. To us it is way too boring - besides being punitive, restrictive and controlling.


How so? 



DocM said:


> Rote memorization does not teach someone to think. It does have a place; math facts for instance. Memorization is not the foundation of logical thought though, it's the foundation of brainwashing.


How did you come to this conclusion?


Guys, these are not snarky questions... I want to understand the other side of the coin. I really do.  

Cindyc.


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## Sonshine

I think memorization is important, but we have to be sure our kids are also learning cognitive skills. I mistook my DS's memorization of numbers for understanding the concept of them. The same could be done with reading. I thought my DS was reading long before he actually was, when in reality he was memorizing books. When the words were placed in a different sentence or even alone, he couldn't tell you what it was. Now, this may be unusual for most kids, I don't know, but my son is LD and has had a really hard time with his cognitive skills, but he does wonderful at memorizing.


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## Terri

Cindy, there is no good idea that has not been abused.

I before e except after c is a very usefull thing to memorize.

However, memorizing that the xyz party is the cause of poverty in this country is not enough. OK, perhaps the teacher/parent/grandparent/mentor really believes this. We all have our beliefs. But, part of being educated is applying the test of logic to what we have been taught. Was there poverty in this country BEFORE party xyz was formed? Are there OTHER causes of poverty? Is there any cause-and-effect as to WHY my teacher/parent/whatever says that party xyz causes poverty in this country?

Memorization is vital in math, but is some subjects it is not enough.

And, some people try to use it as their ONLY teaching tool! That is why so many people are not enchanted with too much memorization. 

For instance, a fine young lady went to a Catholic school. She tells my daughter that my daughter is not a Christian, because my Daughter is a methodist. She has been taught that only Catholics are Christians, and because she MEMORIZED it and never QUESTIONED it, she is dead sure that Methodists are not Christian. 

Memorization is a good thing, but it is not enough. And, some people (and some schools!) use memorization ONLY, which is not a good thing. 

People complain about memorization because it is a technique that is sometimes abused. "Only Catholics are Christians". "Party xyz causes poverty". "Every body in a union is part of the Mafia". And so on. Memorization is the START of education. And, some "Teachers" stop at that point.


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## DocM

Terri said:


> Cindy, there is no good idea that has not been abused.
> 
> I before e except after c is a very usefull thing to memorize.
> 
> However, memorizing that the xyz party is the cause of poverty in this country is not enough. OK, perhaps the teacher/parent/grandparent/mentor really believes this. We all have our beliefs. But, part of being educated is applying the test of logic to what we have been taught. Was there poverty in this country BEFORE party xyz was formed? Are there OTHER causes of poverty? Is there any cause-and-effect as to WHY my teacher/parent/whatever says that party xyz causes poverty in this country?
> 
> Memorization is vital in math, but is some subjects it is not enough.
> 
> And, some people try to use it as their ONLY teaching tool! That is why so many people are not enchanted with too much memorization.
> 
> For instance, a fine young lady went to a Catholic school. She tells my daughter that my daughter is not a Christian, because my Daughter is a methodist. She has been taught that only Catholics are Christians, and because she MEMORIZED it and never QUESTIONED it, she is dead sure that Methodists are not Christian.
> 
> Memorization is a good thing, but it is not enough. And, some people (and some schools!) use memorization ONLY, which is not a good thing.
> 
> People complain about memorization because it is a technique that is sometimes abused. "Only Catholics are Christians". "Party xyz causes poverty". "Every body in a union is part of the Mafia". And so on. Memorization is the START of education. And, some "Teachers" stop at that point.


Said perfectly, so I have nothing to add.


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## cindyc

Terri said:


> Cindy, there is no good idea that has not been abused.
> 
> I before e except after c is a very usefull thing to memorize.
> 
> However, memorizing that the xyz party is the cause of poverty in this country is not enough. OK, perhaps the teacher/parent/grandparent/mentor really believes this. We all have our beliefs. But, part of being educated is applying the test of logic to what we have been taught. Was there poverty in this country BEFORE party xyz was formed? Are there OTHER causes of poverty? Is there any cause-and-effect as to WHY my teacher/parent/whatever says that party xyz causes poverty in this country?
> 
> Memorization is vital in math, but is some subjects it is not enough.
> 
> And, some people try to use it as their ONLY teaching tool! That is why so many people are not enchanted with too much memorization.
> 
> For instance, a fine young lady went to a Catholic school. She tells my daughter that my daughter is not a Christian, because my Daughter is a methodist. She has been taught that only Catholics are Christians, and because she MEMORIZED it and never QUESTIONED it, she is dead sure that Methodists are not Christian.
> 
> Memorization is a good thing, but it is not enough. And, some people (and some schools!) use memorization ONLY, which is not a good thing.
> 
> People complain about memorization because it is a technique that is sometimes abused. "Only Catholics are Christians". "Party xyz causes poverty". "Every body in a union is part of the Mafia". And so on. Memorization is the START of education. And, some "Teachers" stop at that point.


Yea, I guess I could see if it was done in that way why someone could make that argument. OK thanks.  That is not really what we do, and I guess I would consider that indoctrination, not memorization. But, I do see your point. In our family dynamic, memorization is INTENDED to CAUSE questions! And it does. My kids really enjoy memorization work, too. We also study Logic and try to give both sides of a lot of things historically, to cause us all to dig a little deeper. But the connections to memory work we have done before really helps us to better reference those historical events and make our own connections. I learn as they do.  
I just have found it to be a useful tool that actually AIDS in thinking as they get older, and they have gone places with their thinking that they would have missed without those memorized foundations. Anyway, as I said, in your above case, I do see your point, how that could be considered destructive. I just wonder if, like many other things, we have thrown out the baby with the bathwater? 
Thanks for talking this out with me.  
Cindyc.


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## Terri

Cindy, your curriculum sounds about perfect.


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## Tracy Rimmer

There is, however, a difference between memorization of fact for academic purpose and indoctrination. It's not so much the memorization that is a problem, but the promulgation of a personal belief as fact -- indoctrination. 

And memorization should NEVER be used as the ONLY tool for learning. That's counterproductive if one is trying to raise a thinking adult rather than a biddable child.


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## Kee Wan

Since I started working - I've not been on as much - but I do check in once in a while.....

Lemme add my two cents (ok - it's gonna be 8 cents when I'm done...)

Memorization - started at a realtivly early age (liek about 5 -7) is CRITICAL in brain development. We know (thanks to hitler) that infants who'se eyes are covered from birth become blind and loose forever the mechanisms by which to turn visual stimuli into meaningful mental images. This is because at that time (birth) the synapses in the brain that allow images to be recognized, cataloged etc...are forming....if they are not used while forming - they do not form - and blindness results. 

Memorization (a short-cut way to get information from short-term to long-term memory) is a skill - that requires a specific type of brain activity.....that kind of activity starts to form (on average) about 5-7 years old (about the time that many of us were learning out addition tables)....If those pathways in the brain are not used and sharpened, they will never fully develop. When we come across information time and time again, sooner or later, it transitions from short-term to long-term memory.....memorization just speeds and strengthens this process so that things are eventually remembered more easily and after fewer encounters. It also aids recall....so memorized facts can be imediatly brought to bear on a situation, without having to sit and think..... 

Why do we want this developed?

I, for one, would like my emergency-room physician to have memorized AS MANY procedures and medications and interventions (AND correctly) as he can....I do NOT want him gloving up with his nose in a textbook "refreshing"....I want him to KNOW IT COLD! 

I would like my pysical therapist to KNOW the parts of the human anatomy to best be able to manipulate it and help it heal. 

I would like the grocery store clerk to KNOW that there are 12 in a dozen, that apples are fruits, carrots are vegetables, and that when I give her a $10, for a $9.75 item, that $90.25 is NOT appropriate change (although, it's an awfully nice gesture :baby04: :baby04: ).

I want my EMT to know the steps in placing a KED board, using a defibrilator and extricating people from smashed vehicles....WITHOUT a book, or notecards. 

I want my child to KNOW The street signs, and rules of the road, WITHOUT a book - when they are behind the wheel. 

As A teacher I thought that students who used a calcualtor (sometimes correctly adn sometimes not) to take the square root of 25, to cube 3, to divide 1000, by 100.....all ought to have known those things (by senior in High school). Certainly those who multiplied 2 by 9 and 6 by 8, and did not know that thier calculator had lied upset me. 

All of these things are facilitated by enhanced memorization skills. Memorization is a skill, and one that is optimally initially developed between 5 anfd 7 years of age, and if not continuously applied, is often dulled. 

Oftentimes, children who are good at memorization have an easier time of many classes because they have facts at their disposal to use immediatly, instead of having to hunt about for them. 

One other thing that one needs to be aware of when choosing to memorize something is WHY one is choosing to memorise to begin with.....memorizing factoids (how many busshels of cotton did the US produce in 1875? - WHO CARES?) is sometimes taken to extremes..... Some facts lend themselves to synthesis more easily than memorization...others are better memorized. 

We (our homeschool) teach memorization because we see it a way to help children learn how to learn more efficiently, and effectivly....because while information is always available, sometimes it's WAY more convenient to have it immeidatly to hand instead of having to get the backpack out, dig about in it, find the calcualtor, remove the cover, turn it on, punch in the numbers, and discover that 3 x 4 = 12. 



> It is a TOOL you use in COMBINATION with understanding that brings about the TOTAL package of COMPETENCY.


I ABSOLUTLY LOVE THIS!!!! How TOTALLY TRUE!!! A+++ - and I'm going to put THIS on a sign in my schoolroom.


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## cindyc

Kee Wan said:


> Memorization - started at a realtivly early age (liek about 5 -7) is CRITICAL in brain development. We know (thanks to hitler) that infants who'se eyes are covered from birth become blind and loose forever the mechanisms by which to turn visual stimuli into meaningful mental images. This is because at that time (birth) the synapses in the brain that allow images to be recognized, cataloged etc...are forming....if they are not used while forming - they do not form - and blindness results.
> 
> Memorization (a short-cut way to get information from short-term to long-term memory) is a skill - that requires a specific type of brain activity.....that kind of activity starts to form (on average) about 5-7 years old (about the time that many of us were learning out addition tables)....If those pathways in the brain are not used and sharpened, they will never fully develop.


Yes, and in fact when our children were struggling with learning challenges, and we were working with an educational psychologist, visual memory was one of the things he REQUIRED us to work on. The kids would have to do things like learn their spelling words from a numbered chart. Then they would have to spell them FORWARD and BACKWARD. Then they would have to take two of the words that he chose, and spell ONE FORWARD, and ONE BACKWARD, interspersed together, so if the works were COMPACT and SPEAKER, they would have to tell him "C-R-O-E-M-K-P-A-A-E-C-P-T-S" and he would ASK for it by the NUMBER PLACE that it occupied on the chart, NOT by the words! His whole point in doing this was that this kind of memory exercise along with the physical exercise we were doing acutally BUILDS NUEROPATHWAYS in the brain! Those pathways then migrate to the areas of greatest need. They have been doing this sort of thing (not the exact exercises we used, but the concept worked out in different ways) with stroke victims, and brain injured for 30 years, and they KNOW it works, but they have only recently applied it to learning disabilities. Scientifically they KNOW that memory work develops the brain, and they USE that information in THERAPY all the time! Then I hear educators saying that memorization has no value at all when brian scientists are saying it serves a critical purpose! :shrug: I really wonder about that. I wonder if because there has been abuse of a GOOD thing, we have stopped doing it and lost all of it's benefit instead of just not letting it be abused anymore. Our kids are not struggling the way they used to BECAUSE of the memory work and other things we did with the psychologist! Maybe that is why this topic is so important to me. Cindyc.


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## cindyc

Terri said:


> Cindy, your curriculum sounds about perfect.


Oh, no, it isn't! But thank you for that!  I struggle with what I am doing EVERY day! I second guess my self, I change things... just like everybody else. My curriculum is just different b/c it is taylored to my kids. I have a very clear understanding of where we are all trying to go together, and that helps. But what you are seeing is the beauty of homeschooling in action. It sounds great because it is working for US, and meets our particular needs so I sound very positive about it when I post. It is surely not what everybody needs to do, and it surely isn't perfect! But I am encouraged by your words, and I thank you for that. Actually, this morning, encouragement is just what I needed!

Cindyc.


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## Cara

From this thread I've seen that I didn't understand the question. I think of memorization as facts-math, spelling words, grammar rules-not peoples opinions-if you aren't Catholic, you're going to Hell. Now that I see that some use it as a way to control and manipulate, I can see the problem. Like everything else, it can be used for good or evil.


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## georgec

Kee Wan pointed out very nicely that memorization is a skill that is learned and developed. The different parts of the brain are in many ways like muscles, if you don't use those muscles they will wither away.

Those that don't teach their children to memorize are doing them a disservice. Memorization is not punitive, it is an essential part of learning. It is also not boring, unless they were taught that it is boring.

My 6 year old daughter has the best memory in our family. She can hear a story and repeat it back almost verbatim a couple of hours later. I attribute this to her memorizing Bible texts since she was 2. We have been working on her memory her whole life.

How can you learn Anatomy and Physiology without memorization? How can you program a computer without memorizing the available commands? Memorization is an every day tool for most people. Don't you think it might be important to give this tool to our children?


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## Dente deLion

cindyc said:


> The kids would have to do things like learn their spelling words from a numbered chart. Then they would have to spell them FORWARD and BACKWARD. Then they would have to take two of the words that he chose, and spell ONE FORWARD, and ONE BACKWARD, interspersed together, so if the works were COMPACT and SPEAKER, they would have to tell him "C-R-O-E-M-K-P-A-A-E-C-P-T-S" and he would ASK for it by the NUMBER PLACE that it occupied on the chart, NOT by the words!



WOW, this is amazing! If my kid ever finds out where I got this fabulous idea that I'm going to spring on him ... well, look out, Cindyc!


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## cindyc

Dente deLion said:


> WOW, this is amazing! If my kid ever finds out where I got this fabulous idea that I'm going to spring on him ... well, look out, Cindyc!


If you are gonna do it, and you want the neurological benefit, they have to be MOVING at the same time. They have to be moving BOTH sides of the body. (Like walking with the left leg out whilst swinging the right arm up.) That makes the memory work accomplish its goal (if you are doing it for that reason.) Otherwise, it is a really fun game, and they feel really confident when they do it right, but it isn't as strong in terms of brian development.

Let me know how it goes.  
Cindyc.


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## longshadowfarms

If you think about it, young children do this all the time when they learn a new word and use it over and over, when they ask you to read a book over and over and over. Memorization starts plenty early and continues all through life.

Will anyone be offended by a hint of levity? A song comes to mind....



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vytosDX9dVM[/ame]


I am the very model of a modern Major-General,
I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical,
From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical;
I 'm very well acquainted too with matters mathematical,
I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical,
About binomial theorem I'm teeming with a lot o' news -
With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse.

With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse;
With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse;
With many cheerful facts about the square of the
hypote- potenuse.

I'm very good at integral and differential calculus,
I know the scientific names of beings animalculous;
In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I am the very model of a modern Major-General.

In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
He is the very model of a modern Major-General
animalcule - a microscopic organism


I know our mythic history, King Arthur's and Sir Caradoc's
I answer hard acrostics, I've a pretty taste for paradox,
I quote in elegaic all the crimes of Heliogabalus
In conics I can floor peculiarities parabolous.
I can tell undoubted Raphaels from Gerard Dows and Zoffanies,
I know the coaking chorus from the Frogs of Aristophanes,
Then I can hum a fugue of which I've heard the music's din afore,
And whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore.

And whistle all the airs, etc

Then I can write a washing bill in Babylonic cuneiform,
And tell you every detail of Caractacus's uniform;
In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I am the very model of a modern Major-General.

In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
He is the very model of a modern Major-General

In fact, when I know what is meant by 'mamelon' and 'ravelin,'
When I can tell at sight a Mauser rifle from a javelin,
When such affairs as sorties and surprises I'm more wary at,
And when I know precisely what is meant by 'commissariat,'
When I have learnt what progress has been made in modern gunnery,
When I know more of tactics than a novice in a nunnery;
In short, when I've a smattering of elemental strategy,
You'll say a better Major-General had never sat a gee. -

You'll say a better, etc

For my military knowledge, though I'm plucky and adventury,
Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century;
But still, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I am the very model of a modern Major-General.

But still, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
He is the very model of a modern Major-General!


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## cindyc

longshadowfarms said:


> If you think about it, young children do this all the time when they learn a new word and use it over and over, when they ask you to read a book over and over and over. Memorization starts plenty early and continues all through life.
> 
> Will anyone be offended by a hint of levity? A song comes to mind....
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vytosDX9dVM
> 
> 
> I am the very model of a modern Major-General,
> I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral,
> I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical,
> From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical;
> I 'm very well acquainted too with matters mathematical,
> I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical,
> About binomial theorem I'm teeming with a lot o' news -
> With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse.
> 
> With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse;
> With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse;
> With many cheerful facts about the square of the
> hypote- potenuse.
> 
> I'm very good at integral and differential calculus,
> I know the scientific names of beings animalculous;
> In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
> I am the very model of a modern Major-General.
> 
> In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
> He is the very model of a modern Major-General
> animalcule - a microscopic organism
> 
> 
> I know our mythic history, King Arthur's and Sir Caradoc's
> I answer hard acrostics, I've a pretty taste for paradox,
> I quote in elegaic all the crimes of Heliogabalus
> In conics I can floor peculiarities parabolous.
> I can tell undoubted Raphaels from Gerard Dows and Zoffanies,
> I know the coaking chorus from the Frogs of Aristophanes,
> Then I can hum a fugue of which I've heard the music's din afore,
> And whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore.
> 
> And whistle all the airs, etc
> 
> Then I can write a washing bill in Babylonic cuneiform,
> And tell you every detail of Caractacus's uniform;
> In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
> I am the very model of a modern Major-General.
> 
> In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
> He is the very model of a modern Major-General
> 
> In fact, when I know what is meant by 'mamelon' and 'ravelin,'
> When I can tell at sight a Mauser rifle from a javelin,
> When such affairs as sorties and surprises I'm more wary at,
> And when I know precisely what is meant by 'commissariat,'
> When I have learnt what progress has been made in modern gunnery,
> When I know more of tactics than a novice in a nunnery;
> In short, when I've a smattering of elemental strategy,
> You'll say a better Major-General had never sat a gee. -
> 
> You'll say a better, etc
> 
> For my military knowledge, though I'm plucky and adventury,
> Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century;
> But still, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
> I am the very model of a modern Major-General.
> 
> But still, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
> He is the very model of a modern Major-General!


Speaking of memory... I can't remember what musical this is from? It's still worth a chuckle.  

Cindyc.


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## longshadowfarms

Pirates of Penzance! I have memorized more stuff than I care to admit including almost every phone # that I've used more than a half dozen times. That still doesn't help me remember why I went into the other room once I get there.


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## bumpus

.
Many people have very large memory capabilities.

But if they have learned it wrong what benefit is it to 
have all of that wrong knowledge.

That is the problem with False Prophets and All Liars 
They remember a lot of things but they are still wrong.

God said so ! ! !

bumpus
.


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## cindyc

bumpus said:


> .
> Many people have very large memory capabilities.
> 
> But if they have learned it wrong what benefit is it to
> have all of that wrong knowledge.
> 
> That is the problem with False Prophets and All Liars
> They remember a lot of things but they are still wrong.
> 
> God said so ! ! !
> 
> bumpus
> .


Hey Bumpus! Welcome to the class room. I don't see you here much. Glad you chimed in.  
Again, I think my question was really about the memorization of an actual FACT, like 5 + 5 = 10 rather than idealogical indoctrination. Some people think you shouldn't do any memorizing of any facts in whatever your particular school setting is. That is what I am asking about and have had trouble understanding.  

Thanks,
Cindyc.


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## bumpus

.
You can remember that 5 + 5 = 10 and that might help sometimes.

But it's not important.

What is important is learning and understanding and remembering  the principles of addition which will help a person add anything properly, and come to the right answer.

You may know the answer to a certain triangle but if you do not understand and remember how to figure out the equation to a triangle you will not be able to figure out the area of another different size triangle.

Remembering the fundamental equations of any principle will allow you to figure out any problem and come to correct results.

bumpus
.


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## Terri

I don't think that most people have ANYTHING against memorization, actually. We all do it, and we all expect our kids to do it. It can be overdone, but it usually is not.



cindyc said:


> Hey Bumpus! Welcome to the class room. I don't see you here much. Glad you chimed in.
> Again, I think my question was really about the memorization of an actual FACT, like 5 + 5 = 10 rather than idealogical indoctrination. Some people think you shouldn't do any memorizing of any facts in whatever your particular school setting is. That is what I am asking about and have had trouble understanding.
> 
> Thanks,
> Cindyc.


The great thing about math is that there is always more than one way to solve any problem.

My own son-the one with the poor rote memory- didn't have the times tables memorized until he was 11 or 12. Instead, he played to his STRENGTHS and he learned that 3x4 meant either 3 groups of 4 or 4 groups of 3. 

Instead of doing multiplication, he was in reality adding VERY fast! Which worked for him.

At age 13, his mental math is almost as good as mine and I am no slouch. In another year I expect him to be better than I am, and I have a college degree. 

By some philosophies, he should have been held at memorizing the times tables until he knew them but that would have been a mistake. Memorization is ONE learning tool of MANY, and it is not important that my son usually uses a different method. I believe in the use of memorization where it is needed: it is just that some people (very few, now) thnk that one size SHOULD fit all, and it does not.

Cindyc, I think that memorization is one of your strengths, and your children have apparently inherited your ability. That is a good thing. You obviously understand how to use memorization well, and your kids are learning quickly and well. 

Some other people have a differnt strength, AND THEY DO NOT SEE WHY EVERYBODY ELSE CANNOT USE BEST WHAT THEY USE BEST! It is, basically, an inability to put themselves in another persons shoes! So, when you hear somebody complaining about memorization, you might consier that since THEY learn better by a different method, they figure that so does EVERYBODY! 

Some kids (my son included) can memorize so much even if he wanted to. This is why, in the classroom, a wide variety of teaching techniques are used: so that every student can use his/her BEST pathways to learning, so that they all get a good education. 

You have tilted your teaching methods to your and your childrens strengths, and that is a good thing. It is just that many students learn better with a different approach. I don't think that memorization is discounted: it is just that many students do better with a different approach! 

Knowing my son, he would have difficulty in learning what you are teaching your children. He would quickly fall behind in your class. Memorization is his very weakest ability, and he STRAINS to memorize what he must.


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## bumpus

.
Your theory may work in small figures but if the child does not know the basic fundamentals of a circle he will never figure the circumference, diameter, or radius, of a circle on a large scale.

You may count on your fingers and toes but that will not work when you have to figure fractions, decimals, percentage, etc.

If you do not know the basics of division you will not get the right answer for a problem of; 

638.945 divided by 59.04 on you fingers and toes and I do not believe you will remember the answer later on.

You can not subtract 94738 - 4675.74 and get the right answer if you do not know the proper equation, and the answer will never be right.

Multiply 4567.8 X 7578.743 and get the right answer if you don't know the equation needed.

By the way don't use a calculator use just a pencil and paper 
and no help from anyone else.


You have to remember the inches in a foot, feet in a mile etc.

There are basic fundamentals in life that are needed to learn other things, and those never change,  and if you can't remember them you are at a stand still.

It makes no different how smart a person thinks they are.

bumpus
.


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## Terri

Oh, he did memorize the times tables: it is just that it took him 2 years!

And, while he was working on that, he was ALSO learning about division and fractions.


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## menollyrj

What a great thread! I teach chemistry, and I do require my high-schoolers to memorize things like the first 20 elements (name & symbol), 18 polyatomic ions, charges on some elements, etc... Of course, I don't make them memorize it all in a day, and it is information we use continually, but they do just have to KNOW it. We can't have higher level discussions about chemical theory if they don't KNOW the parts of an atom. We can't predict products of chemical reactions if they don't KNOW polyatomic ions and how to write formulas. Memorization alone won't make a good student, but a good student will have to memorize.

-Joy


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## cindyc

menollyrj said:


> What a great thread! I teach chemistry, and I do require my high-schoolers to memorize things like the first 20 elements (name & symbol), 18 polyatomic ions, charges on some elements, etc... Of course, I don't make them memorize it all in a day, and it is information we use continually, but they do just have to KNOW it. We can't have higher level discussions about chemical theory if they don't KNOW the parts of an atom. We can't predict products of chemical reactions if they don't KNOW polyatomic ions and how to write formulas. Memorization alone won't make a good student, but a good student will have to memorize.
> 
> -Joy


That is EXACTLY my point, Joy! I am finding that in MOST things we study, what we have memorized raises the level of discussion. I know it doesn't teach thinking, or mastery. I don't deny that. BUT it is more like it gives us a vocabulary by which to discuss the thinking and mastery elements of the subject. 
In a LOT homeschooling circles around here, anything that is considered memory "by rote" is dismissed out of hand as being bad, or at least educationally not having much value. All I am saying is that I have found the opposite to be true. Could my kids understand things and get through school without it? Probably, but why not use ALL the tools at my disposal. My son is in 7th grade and will start Algebra II before the end of the year! I never planned that, but the memorization work he has done for the team has increased BY FAR how much and how soon he can understand where it comes to math. I personally am not good at math, but working on memory things with my kids as they have gotten older, I am a lot better at it than I used to be. It works! Then when you learn that you are ACTUALLY growing neuropathways in the brain by doing it... Why not use it?
Cindyc.


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## Nel frattempo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nel frattempo
We do not do any "memorization" - none. To us it is way too boring - besides being punitive, restrictive and controlling.


How so? -- said Cindyc

Sorry - I am just getting back - To answer, we are fairly "active" learners, stay busy, were called "hyper" when still in traditional school, we do not sit still for long, stay on the go, "do" school in the car and on the go, the boys finish assignments very quickly, and move on to new material quickly too.

So! For us, if someone were told to sit down and memorize, it would be "restrictive, punitive and controlling" -- but again --- memorizing can be a good tool, just not a forced one. 

But I also really believe that every family has to do what works for them and then try not to worry about what the others are doing. This is something I have to keep working on each semester.

For example: My 16 yr old was struggling with his writing last fall, it was an ordeal, the tutor kept giving him assignment after assignment, it was not going well and he was miserable. She gave him "rules" to MEMORIZE and he just was not getting it, I wanted him to take a month off, she said no she thought he should keep going and keep memorizing, but we did it my way, took 2 months off and when he got back to it, he flew through the material even though he did nothing at all on it during the break. He just needed a break from it.

Same thing happened with my 9 yr. old son's math tables, he did not like it, we took a break, went back to it and he finished it quickly and happily.

I, personally, have "control issues" in that I totally do not like and cannot stand anyone trying to "force" me to do anything nor can I abide anyone trying to force something on my children. To me forced memorization is just punitive and for us it does not work.

My concern too would be that if one simply memorized something, it would not be a subject they "thought" about and I like for the students to THINK and not just spit back something they memorized to parrot back.

Hope this explains our view.


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## menollyrj

Nel frattempo said:


> My concern too would be that if one simply memorized something, it would not be a subject they "thought" about and I like for the students to THINK and not just spit back something they memorized to parrot back.


I agree that memorization not followed by some demonstrated usefulness of the memorized factoids is worthless. Why bother memorize something if it isn't useful information. I don't make my students memorize all the elements on the periodic table because that is useless. Sure, I could test them on it, but why? I don't make my students memorize a lot of vocabulary definitions because the ones we use frequently, they learn over time. They don't have to formally memorize them because they are incorporated into their vocabularies during class time. However, if students memorize information so that subsequent material is understandable or so that students can intelligently discuss new ideas, then I'm all for memorizing!  But I do see your point - memorizing has to have some value beyond just knowing a fact; it must have some recurring usefulness in order to warrant being stored in the memory.

-Joy


----------



## cindyc

menollyrj said:


> I agree that memorization not followed by some demonstrated usefulness of the memorized factoids is worthless. Why bother memorize something if it isn't useful information. I don't make my students memorize all the elements on the periodic table because that is useless. Sure, I could test them on it, but why? I don't make my students memorize a lot of vocabulary definitions because the ones we use frequently, they learn over time. They don't have to formally memorize them because they are incorporated into their vocabularies during class time. However, if students memorize information so that subsequent material is understandable or so that students can intelligently discuss new ideas, then I'm all for memorizing!  But I do see your point - memorizing has to have some value beyond just knowing a fact; it must have some recurring usefulness in order to warrant being stored in the memory.
> 
> -Joy


Yes, exactly. That is the middle ground I am trying to get to.  
Cindyc.


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## quietstar

Memorization methods provide children with more reading words in the beginning two years of study when compared with students learning phonics. After that, the memorization method falls well behind. Need I mention the limits that word memorization places on spelling...How well I know about that failure...Glen


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## pheasantplucker

I'd add to the thread, but I forgot what I was going to say.


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## cindyc

pheasantplucker said:


> I'd add to the thread, but I forgot what I was going to say.


L! And I had a stellar come back all planned, but it's gone now too!  

Now THAT'S funny!
Cindyc.


----------

