# Question about "bad" food



## RockyGlen (Jan 19, 2007)

My MIL has told the story of them sifting the flour to remove the weevils before they made their bread during times of rationing and/or the depression. It has made me wonder what I would do....Right now, I'd feed it to the pigs or something, but if it was all the flour I had - I'd be sifting.

When we talk about flour or sugar going bad - I know the taste is off, but will it make you sick?

I heard (I think on here) about rancid pancake mix making people really sick, but how do we know what can be eaten anyway and what is deadly.

For instance, rancid rice...


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## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

I wonder if the rancid pancake mix had eggs in it?

People used to sift out weevils, that is why we have sieves. Weevils will make the food smell like a musty old goat but it won't likely kill you, especially if the food is cooked. One thing you can do is to parch the grains before storing in a clean tight container as that kills weevil eggs and larvae.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2008)

"Bad food" is a relative term.

In the here and now when food is cheap in the grocery store there isn't any reason to put up with weevily flour, rancid pancake mix, or anything else like that unless you're just too cheap to buy fresher food. Even with the price of wheat, flour, milk and so on being as high as they are food in America is still fairly cheap compared to what it used to cost, say in the Great Depression. Three hot meals on the table used to cost a man a good deal more of his day's wages than it does for nearly anyone today.

But circumstances can change. When you cannot afford to throw that weevily flour out because you have no money to buy more then "bad food" changes with it. If it's not too terribly weevily then sift the little devils out and use the flour. If there are only a very few to begin with you may not even have to sift them out. Sure it might not be as nice as fresh, non-buggy, flour, but it's a sight better than no flour at all.

And if things have gotten so bad that there simply isn't any more food to be had even if you had the money then worrying about things such as mycotoxins and such that might have subtle negative impacts on your health long after the fact becomes relatively unimportant. You may get liver cancer in ten years from that pan of aflatoxin laden cornbread or you may dang well starve to death in the next ten days if you don't eat it.

There is bad and there is bad. Really bad makes you sick as soon as you eat. Not so bad makes you only slightly ill when you eat it or presents a subtle health threat after the fact. Cosmetically bad is the stuff that just looks nasty but won't literally make you sick, at least not right away.

The closer you are to dying if you don't makes the difference as to how "bad" a given food really is. Of course if it's so spoiled that it's going to make you truly sick or even kill you if you do then you're just up the creek.

.....Alan.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

In the days of wooden ships and iron men, flour weevils were considered a valuable source of protein, often the only source available. They were affectionately referred to as 'boatmen'.


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## RockyGlen (Jan 19, 2007)

Alan, and anyone else, is there a list somewhere of foods that can kill you if you eat them when rancid? Obviously, there is botulism, but I mean things like rice, flour, oats, etc. I understand that there COULD be long term consequences, but I'd like to be forewarned if there is something immediately toxic.

BTW - I found the pancake mix thing - he's a candidate for the darwin awards. The pancake mix sat open in the cabinet for 2 years, the guy had an allergy to mold, his roomates quit eating theirs because it tasted like rubbing alcohol and he just kept on chewing. What killed him was his allergy to mold....not the pancake mix. 
http://snopes.com/medical/toxins/pancake.asp


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## RockyGlen (Jan 19, 2007)

NoClue said:


> In the days of wooden ships and iron men, flour weevils were considered a valuable source of protein, often the only source available. They were affectionately referred to as 'boatmen'.


I was in the hospital once and was talking to dh on the phone. He does not know how to cook and so went to the nearest store and bought some boxed mixes. He mentioned that the mac and cheese had bugs in it. I asked if he threw it out, and he said NO, he just cooked it, they wouldn't hurt anything. I about lost my lunch, but it didn't seem to hurt any of them.


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## Bonnie L (May 11, 2002)

I used to clean the offices & kitchen at our church. I let the priest know I'd found weevils in his flour. He said, no problem, extra protein. 

I can't think of any insect that would make you sick. Generally they are in food you cook, anyway. I just have a problem getting past the idea that they are bugs. 

Mixes are something else. They usually have shortening and/or powdered eggs in them. Those I wouldn't touch.


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

"rancid" refers to oil or fat spoiling, getting old, rotting, going bad. Rice isn't going to go rancid(no fat). 

Sugar can absorb bad taste/odor or get icky from getting wet, but it's not going to go bad. 

So it's better to store the staples (flour, sugar, oil) separately, than together in a pancake mix. THose things will store longer separately than mixed up together. The fat in pancake mix is hydrogenated too, that yuck bad fat to boot.


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## RockyGlen (Jan 19, 2007)

wyld thang said:


> "rancid" refers to oil or fat spoiling, getting old, rotting, going bad. Rice isn't going to go rancid(no fat).


I have always heard that brown rice will go rancid...never had it happen, but have always heard it. Does anyone know for sure?


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## foxpawz (May 12, 2002)

Brown rice will go rancid.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

RockyGlen said:


> I have always heard that brown rice will go rancid...never had it happen, but have always heard it. Does anyone know for sure?


Well in Wyoming It may never go bad for practical purposes. The temps are generally cold. If you store in a basement or cold pantry. Your stores may never go off.



foxpawz said:


> Brown rice will go rancid.


You don't say where you are from but if it's a warm area things can spoil rapidly in the best scenarios.


Here on our little mountain top. It's cold enough to keep most stuff for a very long time. In fact we used to have weevils when we first moved here. But due to our wood heat(temps can be quite cold in the morning). We have rid ourselves of them.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

When we lived overseas in tropical places, I put my flour in the freezer, but we had weevils and bugs in all kinds of things. We'd pour our breakfast cereal in the bowl, pour on the milk, shake the bowl a little and watch all the little bugs float to the top. We'd pick them out, line them up and have a contest to see who had the most. Then we'd eat our cereal. It was useless to get too upset, or throw it out, as most grain based foods had bugs in it.


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## Michael Kawalek (Jun 21, 2007)

Yes, brown rice definately goes rancid. Here in California with warmer summertime temperatures, a bag of brown rice is only good for a couple of months. If you really want to store brown rice, keep it in an oxygen free sealed container. Oily foods like peanut butter, premixes, and such become rancid because the unsaturated fatty acids oxidize in the presence of air. That's an example of chemical spoilage. Another example is the slow breakdown of vitamins over the course of several years.

The documented deaths are more related to alergic shock. It could be mold in the pancake mix, or peanuts, or a bee sting. All can be deadly for a sensitive person.

Most foodborne problems come from microbial spoilage though. Food that has been cooked but left out so bacteria can grow. Staphylococcus produces a toxin that makes people very sick, bloody diarreia and such. Other disease comes from improper handling where people don't wash their hands after using the toilet. That's usually E. coli or Salmonella. Overall, the best advice to give, if it smells like something is wrong with it, then, there is something wrong with it. Don't eat it!


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I think (and could be wrong) that botulism is a modern phenomenom... before canning was popular, food might spoil, but the anerobic conditions didn't exist for the botulism to form.

I know when I first went to Alaska, the authorities had education programs for the natives, basically asking them to not prepare traditional foods with tupperware, five gallon buckets, or plastic bags. They'd bury their meat traditionally in baskets, and the food would ferment, and breathe. In 'modern storage buckets' the food would ferment, then go botulistic... Inuits died each year, because of modern convenience.

My uncle tells the story of growing up, they'd store hams through the winter, and by the end of the ham 'season', there'd be lots of 'skippers' in the meat... tiny maggots. They'd wash them out, and eat what was left.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

During seafaring times, the weevils in rice and flour were the largest form of protein a sailor got. They weren't picky. 

Disease is one thing. Hunger is another. I've never understood picky eaters ... I think most of them just haven't been hungry before. Really hungry. Hungry enough not to care.

The best water I've ever had in my life I drank out of a cow hoofprint. It took me almost two days to find it.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

I caught a pack of chicken breasts and 2 rolls behind my shed this afternoon.... they were smoking cigarettes and drinking Night Train.

You think they've gone bad?











Sorry... it was the thread title. I couldn't help myself.....


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

JGex said:


> I caught a pack of chicken breasts and 2 rolls behind my shed this afternoon.... they were smoking cigarettes and drinking Night Train.
> 
> You think they've gone bad?
> 
> ...



It's your hat, it has effects on your brain unless it's lined with tin foil.

Angie


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

But, but... Evil Bunny Hat is supposed to protect my head!!!

Oh noooooo!


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

RockyGlen said:


> Alan, and anyone else, is there a list somewhere of foods that can kill you if you eat them when rancid? Obviously, there is botulism, but I mean things like rice, flour, oats, etc. I understand that there COULD be long term consequences, but I'd like to be forewarned if there is something immediately toxic.
> 
> BTW - I found the pancake mix thing - he's a candidate for the darwin awards. The pancake mix sat open in the cabinet for 2 years, the guy had an allergy to mold, his roomates quit eating theirs because it tasted like rubbing alcohol and he just kept on chewing. What killed him was his allergy to mold....not the pancake mix.
> http://snopes.com/medical/toxins/pancake.asp


 What Ms. Mikkelson reports in her Snopes piece is true, but it is not completely the whole truth.

_The pancake mix that delivered a toxic payload was analyzed and found to contain four rather nasty molds: Penicillium, *Fusarium*, Mucor, and *Aspergillus*. The decedent had not been allergic to eggs (which are a component of pancakes), so there was no doubt as to which allergy had killed him. It had been mold, and nothing but._

There are many mold genera that can infect foods, particularly grain products. Many of them do not produce mycotoxins. Some of them do however and the two I highlighted above contain many species that produce mycotoxins ranging from mildly to acutely toxic. Precisely which Fusarium and Aspergillus species were in that pancake mix was not stated, nor the level of any mycotoxins they may have produced. Maybe there was only a little, maybe there was more. For sure having an allergy to mold and eating that mix was asking for serious trouble and he found it.

We should all keep in mind that a little bit spoiled equates to a little bit toxic. If it's only a minor amount of minor spoilage we can probably eat that food and go right on with no apparent problem. The more spoiled it becomes however the greater the potential problem lurking within. This is especially so if it should happen to be a spoiler that produces some sort of acute toxin it could very well lay you out or even kill you. Botulism is far from being the only spoiler out there that can be lethal.

As I said before risk is relative. If it's a literal choice of eat it or starve then maybe any potential danger lurking within the spoiled food is acceptable. For lesser situations the risk/reward ratio usually indicates not eating it. Aflatoxins and other such fungus produced toxins have rarely been acutely poisonous _to people_ in the United States but as many can tell you there have sure been plenty of livestock killed from eating mycotoxin contaminated feed. The ones that weren't killed were sickened, perhaps to the point they were no longer economically viable. This is why livestock feed grains are now all supposed to be tested before they can be sold through normal channels. Human grains for the same reason, especially commodities such as peanuts and corn. In other nations there have been outbreaks and deaths due to mycotoxin contaminated foods. Ergot is a fungus too and most all of us have at least a passing familiarity with the consequences of ergotism.

Here's a resource that some of you might find useful. It's the FDA's "Bad Bug Book" (http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/intro.html). Not everything there pertains to food spoilage, but all of the important food spoilage organisms are included for both dry foods such as grains and grain produts and wet pack and high moisture fresh foods. We hear about these bugs often, every time there is a major spoilage related food recall. It's worth familiarizing yourself with them and it is where you will find your list. In my opinion under anything less than extreme conditions I would tolerate only minor weevil infestations at best. Anything else would require careful weighing of risk versus benefit under the circumstances you are forced to deal with at the time. 

.....Alan.


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## RockyGlen (Jan 19, 2007)

One more question, Alan. Would the cooking process kill or negate the molds and bacterias in grains? 

I know that canned goods are a whole different story - but some of us have huge quantities of grains stored up and if they went bad and were all we had to eat, it could be a disaster. I hope I'm not bugging you.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

No, cooking temperatures do not break down many mycotoxins and many bacterial poisons as well. Some will breakdown that way, but many do not. You're a grain farmer and I am not so you would know how best to keep bins of grain from spoiling better than I. 

In a real disaster if it came down to "eat this or starve" I'd dig through it to find the least weevily grain I could find then sift and winnow it as thoroughly as I could. Most weevils won't actually make you sick or injure (there are some that can) so if it's not completely eat up with them then under extremis it can be eaten. If it's moldy then you have a pretty stark choice to make: starve now or take a chance that there isn't too much mycotoxin in the grain?

.....Alan.


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## RockyGlen (Jan 19, 2007)

we have never had weevils or had grain go bad, but we are in a very dry climate. Our biggest problem with the bulk grains in the barn is mice. For what we store to eat, we just put in food grade buckets, seal, and put in a cool, dry, root cellar. I do limit the amount of brown rice I have, using white for long term storage even though I have never lost any brown rice. I also do not store rolled oats, but the whole groat, for the same reason.

Thanks for the answers - I think it behooves all of us to be as aware as possible.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

I can't say that I've ever eaten a weevil (I very well may have, but it didn't stand out or I just don't remember). I have however, eaten grubs, snails (without garlic and butter), ants, grasshoppers, snakes, eels, and no end of other odd bits and pieces of things not normally. While I wouldn't go out of my way to eat any of the above in normal circumstances, I can personally vouch that none of them killed me or, other than occasionally retching as I swallowed, even made me sick.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

botulism toxin will break down if boiled for 10 minutes. the spores require temps that can only be reached with pressure canning, but the toxin itself breaks down if boiled for 10 minutes. since botulism spores have to be present on many foods we eat raw, i would have no worries about botulism as long as you boil your food for ten minutes.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

For the most part, all foods can be rendered edible again by thoroughly cooking them. If not, the human race would have died out long ago.

There are exceptions to this, of course, but it's a good rule to follow.


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## Dutch 106 (Feb 12, 2008)

Hi Guys,
I thought that insect control was the primary reason to use dry ice or oxygen reducers in grain storage pails. With no free O2 the bugs and eggs present in most grain were killed.
I'm very allergic to mold. my former significant other could not figure that out no mater the number of times she made me sick with it. 
I would have been barfing on the first bite so I guess I'm safer than the Darwin award candidate with the moldy pancake mix.


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