# How to deal with a bad attitude?



## MDKatie

I'd love to get some tips on how to deal with my DSS's poor attitude when it comes to learning new things. He's 10, and in 5th grade in a public school. Since he was in kindergarten, he has had a poor attitude when it comes to learning new things. Reading, writing, addition, subtration, multiplication, division, fractions, etc. You name it, when he was first learning it he convinced himself he couldnt' do it, and would practically shut down when we tried to help him. 

It seems maybe he doesn't pay attention in class, or doesn't ask questions when he doesn't know something, so we end up teaching him at home pretty much. He's sitting next to kids he doesn't know this year, so I don't think the problem is him talking. Maybe he's daydreaming or zoning out? He doesn't need glasses, doesn't have trouble hearing, and doesn't have a learning disability. He just psychs himself out so badly that he gets so frustrated he'll end up in tears before we even start learning something! 

Each time, it's the same old song and dance. He'll get worked up before we even start teaching him something. We'll have to calmly explain he needs to calm down and have a positive attitude or else we won't get anywhere. Then we'll teach him something, staying positive about it the whole time. He'll finally stop resisting and actually listen, then he'll understand the new concept and be able to do it himself. 

The thing is, it's getting REALLY old. It is very hard to keep cool and calm when all I want to do is get frustrated at him for his poor attitude. We remind him every time people aren't born knowing how to read, talk, ride bikes, do addition, etc...and that it takes practice to learn it and get it down. I feel like we've gone through this enough, and I don't know if we're coddling him at this point or not. I don't want to have to sit down with him every single night to do his homework with him (or help explain everything) for his entire school career. I feel like he should maybe be a little more independent.

I don't want to get tough on him, because he truly is getting very frustrated, and I don't want to make him feel like he's being bad....BUT, we've tried telling him it's no fun for US to teach him when he's crying and having a poor attitude. 

So, any ideas,suggestions, tips, etc would be great. DH and I usually work together at this, and one will take over when the other is getting frustrated. I want to keep learning/teaching a positive experience for both parents and student, but it's really hard. Has anyone had this experience? Is it something that will get better with age?


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## Trapper

My wife and I had this conversation the other night.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

She is good at calculus I and II and III, and algebra and geometry.
She has learned these things because she needed them.
I have only learned algebra and not geometry or calculus because I haven't needed them.

So when it comes to calculating the square yards of gravel needed for under a 800 square foot deck--she does the calculation. If I need to do a quality control grinding on a metal part, I don't need anything but a little algebra or basic math within a 1000th of an inch.

Give him a task to DO something requiring those calculations you want him to learn. Hands-on.

How many quarts of tomatoes fit in the sink to fill a canner full of quart jars. What number of square yards of gravel are needed, and sand, and cement, to build a dog house with a foundation? How many board feet will be needed for the wood. How many square feet of asphalt type roofing will be needed?

Look for the need. Best of luck to you.


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## floyd242

Has he been tested for dyslexia?


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## MDKatie

floyd242 said:


> Has he been tested for dyslexia?


No he hasn't. He was slow to "get" reading, and we spoke to several teachers about it, and they all said they didn't think it was dyslexia, just that he wasn't quite "there" yet and that it was normal for some kids to not pick it up as quickly. He made a marked improvement his 3rd grade year and has been doing grade level reading since. He just doesn't like it.


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## Laura Zone 5

I have dyslexia and I do not read for pleasure....and I do not like or do well in math, especially if there is more than 1 problem on the paper.

I was called lazy, under achiever, did not apply myself, trouble maker (I talked to my neighbors to help me understand). When made to read out loud in class, I was humiliated by laughing class mates and a badgering teacher.


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## SLFarmMI

I teach special education students (of all sorts of disabilities) so I see resistance/bad attitude/work avoidance all day long. What it all boils down to is fear. Your remark that his teachers said it took a little longer for him to "get" reading made it all clear. You can bet that before reading gelled for him, that he knew darn well that he wasn't getting it. No one would have needed to say anything to him about it -- kids are really smart that way. They know exactly who the good readers (or writers, or whatever) are. Some kids internalize the belief that if they struggle they just aren't ever going to get it and that there must be something wrong with them because everyone else gets it. This self-defeating message plays in their heads over and over again and can lead to what looks like a poor attitude. I can almost guarantee it that a 5th grade boy isn't asking questions when he doesn't understand something. No way is he going to admit that he doesn't know something in front of his peers. For boys of that age, it is way better, in their view, to be seen as the guy who won't do something as opposed to the guy who can't do it.

So, here is what I do for my resistant/frustrated kids. I'm using math as an example. First, I never give them a whole sheet of math problems and turn them loose. You're doomed if you do. He's going to see that sheet of work and start getting busy convincing himself that he can't do it and never will be able to do it. Now, you can't control if he gets a whole page of problems from his teacher but here is how you can address that. Take a manilla folder and, on the front, cut strips to the fold. Then slip the assignment in the folder and open one flap. The rest of the problems are out of sight, out of mind. Only allow him to work one flap at a time. 

For learning new material, I teach my students one step at a time. Then I have them do that 1 step on 1 problem. Then the student has to bring me that 1 problem. We look at what they have done. If it is incorrect, I re-explain/re-demonstrate and have them fix that 1 step on that 1 problem as many times as it takes until the kid gets it. If it is correct, then the student is allowed to do the next step on that 1 problem and so on until the problem is done. Once they are independent in the step by step process, then they are allowed to do the entire process on 2 problems before they have to check in with me. So on and so forth until they are independent and automatic on the skill. It may take us a week to do a sheet of math problems but I don't really give a rip. I'd rather they have one page done correctly and with understanding of the concept than 50 pages done incorrectly with no understanding.

I've also made "cue cards" for processes that have multiple steps. These are just index cards with the steps to a process (division for example) written on them. Kids can refer to them when they need a reminder.

I would sit down and discuss your concerns with the teacher. You shouldn't have to be re-teaching every concept at home. I would request frequent checks for understanding (that's the process outlined above) within the classroom. I would also make sure he has preferential seating. That could be in the front of the room, back of the room, alone, with quiet girls only -- where depends on how the individual student and the character of the room.


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## MDKatie

SLFarmMI said:


> I teach special education students (of all sorts of disabilities) so I see resistance/bad attitude/work avoidance all day long. What it all boils down to is fear. Your remark that his teachers said it took a little longer for him to "get" reading made it all clear. You can bet that before reading gelled for him, that he knew darn well that he wasn't getting it. No one would have needed to say anything to him about it -- kids are really smart that way. They know exactly who the good readers (or writers, or whatever) are. Some kids internalize the belief that if they struggle they just aren't ever going to get it and that there must be something wrong with them because everyone else gets it. This self-defeating message plays in their heads over and over again and can lead to what looks like a poor attitude. I can almost guarantee it that a 5th grade boy isn't asking questions when he doesn't understand something. No way is he going to admit that he doesn't know something in front of his peers. For boys of that age, it is way better, in their view, to be seen as the guy who won't do something as opposed to the guy who can't do it.



Thanks for your great reply! Yes, I can bet also that he's way too shy to be asking questions if he doesn't understand. And he's very aware who the "smart" kids are, but he's done some great improving the past year or two and we could see his confidence building. We try really hard to always be positive, tell him how well he's doing, etc.  



> So, here is what I do for my resistant/frustrated kids. I'm using math as an example. First, I never give them a whole sheet of math problems and turn them loose. You're doomed if you do. He's going to see that sheet of work and start getting busy convincing himself that he can't do it and never will be able to do it. Now, you can't control if he gets a whole page of problems from his teacher but here is how you can address that. Take a manilla folder and, on the front, cut strips to the fold. Then slip the assignment in the folder and open one flap. The rest of the problems are out of sight, out of mind. Only allow him to work one flap at a time.
> 
> For learning new material, I teach my students one step at a time. Then I have them do that 1 step on 1 problem. Then the student has to bring me that 1 problem. We look at what they have done. If it is incorrect, I re-explain/re-demonstrate and have them fix that 1 step on that 1 problem as many times as it takes until the kid gets it. If it is correct, then the student is allowed to do the next step on that 1 problem and so on until the problem is done. Once they are independent in the step by step process, then they are allowed to do the entire process on 2 problems before they have to check in with me. So on and so forth until they are independent and automatic on the skill. It may take us a week to do a sheet of math problems but I don't really give a rip. I'd rather they have one page done correctly and with understanding of the concept than 50 pages done incorrectly with no understanding.
> 
> I've also made "cue cards" for processes that have multiple steps. These are just index cards with the steps to a process (division for example) written on them. Kids can refer to them when they need a reminder.


Great ideas! I think breaking it down into small steps will be a little easier for him to handle. Luckily, he doesn't get too many full sheets of math, so we'll make sure to break them up even further though. When reading a whole page was intimidating to him, I told him to look only at the first word, then sentence, then paragraph, etc. 



> I would sit down and discuss your concerns with the teacher. You shouldn't have to be re-teaching every concept at home. I would request frequent checks for understanding (that's the process outlined above) within the classroom. I would also make sure he has preferential seating. That could be in the front of the room, back of the room, alone, with quiet girls only -- where depends on how the individual student and the character of the room.


We'll definitely talk to his teacher about it. We'll ask that she find a quiet moment alone with him to make sure he's understanding it. I don't want him to feel embarrassed about asking for help, and I want her to understand he's going to be too shy to ask for it on his own. 

Thanks so much for the suggestions! We definitely don't want him feeling stupid or bad. I told him yesterday that it's completely fine for him to feel mad and frustrated when he doesn't get something, but it's absolutely NOT ok for him to take it out on us, or to speak rudely to us. We went through some suggestions on how to express his feelings of frustration and anger without directing it at a person.


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## DEKE01

I used to work in south florida hotels with newly arrived Haitians. The women often had had no education (I don't think they felt a need for girls to get an education), English was at best a broken second language which they did not read, they had zero common sense and work place values - at least as we expect Americans to have. None of that is meant to be racist, it is just that their culture was so different than ours that we were working from the very beginning. 

We tried and failed at a lot of things until we tried the methods SLFarmMI advocates. Very small steps, lots of praise for getting the most basic advancement, lots of hands on demonstration, no moving on until the current part was mastered. We tried giving a $100 bonus for 90 days of on time, perfect attendance and never paid a dime. Then we started paying $10 for a perfect week and began to see lots of change for the better. 

Big problems, long lists of instructions, multi week time frames were just too much for them to wrap their heads around. I suspect this 5th grader might have a similar view on life at his young age. Don't fight it, take advantage of it. I love SLFarm's point that it is better to one thing well than to move on and do many things poorly. 

School's are really good teaching well behaved, quiet, attentive girls. School's still haven't figured out that rambunctious boys need different approaches. I have a lifelong friend who failed two grades and struggled his entire school career. Once he got in the Army, he excelled, mastered everything he was given and rose to the highest enlisted rank. The Army's education approach worked for him whereas the public school approach was a failure.


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## MDKatie

Thanks for the input, DEKE01. I have been thinking maybe we'll try a reward system....say every night he does his homework, and keeps a positive attitude, and makes a good effort, he'll get reward...maybe a sticker on a chart, or a marble in a jar. Once the chart/jar is full he'll get a reward. I really prefer positive enforcement over negative. I'd hate to make him dislike schoolwork even more.


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## chickenista

We had this problem with DS before we pulled him out of school.

Problem 1 - he was sooo bored. He would catch what the teacher said the first time, but she would repeat it and repeat adn tuned out.

2- then he would miss when she changed. Especially bad on verbally given test. He would answer the question, she would give it 3 more times and he would miss the new question.

3- all of the failure, getting fussed at, the pressure that I put on him, the pressure the teacher put on him etc.. fried his brain. He could NOT think under pressure ..at all.

4- when he got home he would recite the answers to everything he had blanked on. The stress of the classroom and the pressure at home had created a bad stress response, a panic. And he just couldn't. And he was so frustrated adn starting to get angry inside etc..
It was turning into a bad scene. We never could find a way to help him cope, to find a way to keep him from tuning out from the droning on, but it got to where he was so distressed that he couldn't grasp anything. His adrenaline would spike the minute he got to school. It became impossible for him to absorb anything.

We had to pull him.
His attitude is great adn he is blowing through his education.

If that is not an option, it may be time to get the school counselor involved to help him with coping mechanisms etc.. maybe you could observe a class and see what it is like for him in class etc.. we did that.


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## KnowOneSpecial

I agree with breaking it down. 

Also, if you can, put whatever he's learning (vocabulary words, math problems, etc.) on a 3x5 and tape it to the garage door. Then tell him he can't go outside unless he touches the card and either does the problem or gives the definition. Don't do all of the vocab words- one or two at a time! 

When my kids would start to get upset I would stop whatever we were doing and just sit there and wait for them to 'get over it'. I wouldn't say a word or do anything but sit and quietly pray for them. Then we'd talk calmly about why they were upset.


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## MDKatie

chickenista said:


> If that is not an option, it may be time to get the school counselor involved to help him with coping mechanisms etc.. maybe you could observe a class and see what it is like for him in class etc.. we did that.


Homeschooling is not an option for us. I'd love to observe a class, but I wish we could do it without him knowing we were there.


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## Whisperwindkat

chickenista said:


> We had this problem with DS before we pulled him out of school.
> 
> Problem 1 - he was sooo bored. He would catch what the teacher said the first time, but she would repeat it and repeat adn tuned out.
> 
> 2- then he would miss when she changed. Especially bad on verbally given test. He would answer the question, she would give it 3 more times and he would miss the new question.
> 
> 3- all of the failure, getting fussed at, the pressure that I put on him, the pressure the teacher put on him etc.. fried his brain. He could NOT think under pressure ..at all.
> 
> 4- when he got home he would recite the answers to everything he had blanked on. The stress of the classroom and the pressure at home had created a bad stress response, a panic. And he just couldn't. And he was so frustrated adn starting to get angry inside etc..
> It was turning into a bad scene. We never could find a way to help him cope, to find a way to keep him from tuning out from the droning on, but it got to where he was so distressed that he couldn't grasp anything. His adrenaline would spike the minute he got to school. It became impossible for him to absorb anything.
> 
> We had to pull him.
> His attitude is great adn he is blowing through his education.
> 
> If that is not an option, it may be time to get the school counselor involved to help him with coping mechanisms etc.. maybe you could observe a class and see what it is like for him in class etc.. we did that.


 This was it for us as well.


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## Danaus29

It might help to remember that it's NOT his attitude. The problem is a one-size-fits-all educational system. Square pegs don't fit into round holes. He simply learns differently than the majority and is being stressed and ultimately set up for failure. 

Baby steps and lots of praise for even small accomplishments. 

Something that helped some of the handicapped kids I knew were plastic letters and numbers. The kids could touch and arrange the letters and numbers to match the problem or word.


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## MDKatie

Danaus29 said:


> It might help to remember that it's NOT his attitude.


Like I said before, the problem is his attitude. His attitude towards us when we try to help him was really bad last week. We're not bothered by his needing extra help, but we are bothered that he was rude to us. He can help that. 




But, just wanted to post a good update! He needed math help tonight, so I sat down with him to go over stuff. I just took it step by step, like I normally do, but the difference was night and day. I'm not sure if it's because we had the talk with him last week, or if he was better rested, or what, but his attitude was positive. He tried and never had a bad attitude at all.  We went over several things and he got them all. We did lots of practice questions and he never once acted like it was awful. Then, after we were finished I made sure to tell him how proud I was of his good attitude and how great he did. He said, "Well this stuff is _fun_", which was funny to me because it was the same stuff pretty much that we went over last week...decimals. His dad and I both complimented him on it several times tonight. He's got a math test/quiz tomorrow and I reminded him to take his time and go over the steps...I told him to have confidence because he knows the material!


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## pheasantplucker

Few people (after infancy)intrinsically learn for the pure joy of learning. Most people need to feel their efforts are to be rewarded. This is especially true if the tasks become more intricate and complex. Eventually the learner will see the benefits of learning tasks, and begin to feel satisfaction through their accomplishments. For now, though in your child's case, I would break down problems into sequential "baby steps" and reward success. Say your son enjoys Legos building toys. You could have a pile of them at your disposal, and as he succeeds at solving steps in a problem, he is rewarded with a building block. You could then have the rule that every time he accumulates 5 or 10 building blocks, he gets a ten minute break with all the Legos. Then once he's done, they all go back to you and he has to work for the next reward. Perhaps when he is finished with the entire assignment, he can have twenty of thirty minutes of time which he as earned. I would avoid using food as a reward. We all work for pay. Some kids feel that if they are not rewarded for their efforts, it is a waste of time. Eventually he will, hopefully, see the importance of working...more social acceptance, feeling of accomplishment, good report card, etc. Good luck. As a former teacher, you encounter all kinds of kids with varying attitudes, abilities, and learning styles.


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## Grumpy old man

well ,This is the way it worked in our house .


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## CraterCove

MDKatie said:


> No he hasn't. He was slow to "get" reading, and we spoke to several teachers about it, and they all said they didn't think it was dyslexia, just that he wasn't quite "there" yet and that it was normal for some kids to not pick it up as quickly. He made a marked improvement his 3rd grade year and has been doing grade level reading since. He just doesn't like it.


Your first mistake is using a teacher as a medical diagnostician. Yes, they may have a lot of field experience but they are not doctors and can't be used for a reliable diagnosis of any kind.

I have to say it is a little disconcerting that you say you don't want to have to help him with his homework. It's part of being a parent. I don't agree with homework, I think it sets children up to be taken advantage of in the work place when it is established that it's okay to be sent home with extra work every day. Also, I'd say that there are almost no circumstances under which homeschooling is not an option, it'd be more honest to say you don't want to do it. You can even get the district to help you if it is determined he has a medical issue that would make it best health wise or socially to have him stay home, a teacher will come to you every week. Maybe he needs one on one attention with someone who will listen to him?

Perhaps the reason he doesn't do better is because school has become a place he dreads going every day all day long. Perhaps that is solely because of what other people have now defined as his difficulty learning or it could be because of social issues occurring that neither you nor his teachers know about. You mentioned he's crying... yes crying can be trying to get out of work but it can also be an overflow of stress that you are simply adding to not taking away from. I'd definitely get a counselor involved or take him to a psychologist who understands children behavior.

I had a difficult child-- he even convinced his second grade teacher that reading was just too hard for him. Keeping him home for a year broke him of that attitude. Before I pulled him out (this time because we have two little ones we will be homeschooling so why not do all three?) he was on the honor roll, he reads for entertainment (is neck deep in the Ender series) and wants to be a scientist. Sometimes difficult is lazy and pushing boundaries, sometimes its because of another influence you are not aware of.

I know some of that may have seemed harsh but it's kind of a harsh situation you are having to deal with. I know it seems really hard right now but hopefully you guys can come out the other side with a better understanding of each other.


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## MDKatie

CraterCove said:


> Your first mistake is using a teacher as a medical diagnostician. Yes, they may have a lot of field experience but they are not doctors and can't be used for a reliable diagnosis of any kind.


I never said we used the teacher(s) as medical diagnosticians. We have worked with all of his teachers closely on tracking his progress and not a single one of them even thought he may have a learning disability. If we thought there was even a chance of it, we would have taken him to an actual doctor. 



> I have to say it is a little disconcerting that you say you don't want to have to help him with his homework. It's part of being a parent. I don't agree with homework, I think it sets children up to be taken advantage of in the work place when it is established that it's okay to be sent home with extra work every day. Also, I'd say that there are almost no circumstances under which homeschooling is not an option, it'd be more honest to say you don't want to do it. You can even get the district to help you if it is determined he has a medical issue that would make it best health wise or socially to have him stay home, a teacher will come to you every week. Maybe he needs one on one attention with someone who will listen to him?


We don't mind helping him with his homework. What I don't think should happen is having his parents sit down with him every single night without fail, and go through each and every step of his homework with him. At first, we probably will, but once he learns something he should be able to do his homework on his own, by using his text for help, and only asking us if he's unable to figure it out on his own, using the resources he has. I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect children to learn to do things on their own, without their hands being held every single step of the way. Do you expect your children to be able to do work without you sitting next to them and helping with every step? And I don't mind them having homework, as long as it's a reasonable amount. It's good for them to have practice doing what they learned that day. And I had homework all my school career (especially college) and don't ever have to bring work home with me now. 

And I appreciate your trying to help with ideas and suggestions on homeschooling. It is not an option for us, even though you think it is. We all work, and not one of us is able to quit our jobs to stay home. Plus, not everyone thinks homeschooling is the best option out there. Many homeschooling parents hate public schools and think they're worthless, but I happen to support public schools and think they're beneficial in many ways. We've had nothing but positive experiences with the kids' school, and I don't feel that taking him out would be beneficial to him at this point. Plus, I have a feeling his mother would have something to say about that as well. So, even though you think anyone and everyone can homeschool, it's not an option for us.


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## Danaus29

When a 10 yo has a homework meltdown it's usually not because they want to lash out. They are simply frustrated and upset that they don't get something that everyone else in the class gets. They have to realize they can understand the work before they can tackle new challenges. Blaming his attitude and placing that burden on his shoulders just makes him feel worse.

My youngest was like that. She had a teacher that kept going on (in class in front of the other students) about my dd's attitude. Let's just say it didn't help. It took dd a long time to get over that.


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## SLFarmMI

CraterCove said:


> Your first mistake is using a teacher as a medical diagnostician. Yes, they may have a lot of field experience but they are not doctors and can't be used for a reliable diagnosis of any kind.
> .


It is a common misconception that doctors should be the ones "diagnosing" learning disabilities of which dyslexia is one type. They do not have the training or experience to do so. In fact, if you look at the required members of the multidisciplinary team necessary to evaluate for special education in the area of learning disabilities, doctors are not listed.


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## SLFarmMI

MDKatie said:


> I never said we used the teacher(s) as medical diagnosticians. We have worked with all of his teachers closely on tracking his progress and not a single one of them even thought he may have a learning disability. If we thought there was even a chance of it, we would have taken him to an actual doctor.
> 
> We don't mind helping him with his homework. What I don't think should happen is having his parents sit down with him every single night without fail, and go through each and every step of his homework with him. At first, we probably will, but once he learns something he should be able to do his homework on his own, by using his text for help, and only asking us if he's unable to figure it out on his own, using the resources he has. I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect children to learn to do things on their own, without their hands being held every single step of the way. Do you expect your children to be able to do work without you sitting next to them and helping with every step? And I don't mind them having homework, as long as it's a reasonable amount. It's good for them to have practice doing what they learned that day. And I had homework all my school career (especially college) and don't ever have to bring work home with me now.
> 
> And I appreciate your trying to help with ideas and suggestions on homeschooling. It is not an option for us, even though you think it is. We all work, and not one of us is able to quit our jobs to stay home. Plus, not everyone thinks homeschooling is the best option out there. Many homeschooling parents hate public schools and think they're worthless, but I happen to support public schools and think they're beneficial in many ways. We've had nothing but positive experiences with the kids' school, and I don't feel that taking him out would be beneficial to him at this point. Plus, I have a feeling his mother would have something to say about that as well. So, even though you think anyone and everyone can homeschool, it's not an option for us.


I've thought of one more idea for you. I warn you it's a little strange (but then again, I'm the strange teacher in the building so it's par for the course :heh. Only do this when you are certain that your son really does know how to do the assignment and is asking for help just out of habit or comfort. If you have the slightest doubt that he may not know it securely, don't do this. Ok, once you are sure he is able to do the skill and just wants some hand holding, put some distance between you and him. Go across the room or better yet go into another room. If he wants help, he must come to you. Before he can ask his question, he must do 5 push ups or jumping jacks or whatever physical activity you can think of. The best ones are the ones that cross the midline (middle of the body, dividing left from right). It is amazing how many kids who really know how to do something remember that they really do know how to do it without help when they have to do jumping jacks. Plus the physical activity is actually stimulating to the brain. It sounds odd but it has worked in my room.


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## MDKatie

Danaus29 said:


> Blaming his attitude and placing that burden on his shoulders just makes him feel worse.


There's a difference in a teacher making someone feel bad vs. a parent teaching a child they're not allowed to be disrespectful, even when they're frustrated. 



SLFarmMI said:


> I've thought of one more idea for you. I warn you it's a little strange (but then again, I'm the strange teacher in the building so it's par for the course :heh. Only do this when you are certain that your son really does know how to do the assignment and is asking for help just out of habit or comfort. If you have the slightest doubt that he may not know it securely, don't do this. Ok, once you are sure he is able to do the skill and just wants some hand holding, put some distance between you and him. Go across the room or better yet go into another room. If he wants help, he must come to you. Before he can ask his question, he must do 5 push ups or jumping jacks or whatever physical activity you can think of. The best ones are the ones that cross the midline (middle of the body, dividing left from right). It is amazing how many kids who really know how to do something remember that they really do know how to do it without help when they have to do jumping jacks. Plus the physical activity is actually stimulating to the brain. It sounds odd but it has worked in my room.


I'll keep that in mind! One of his teachers even mentioned the midline thing before...it helps the brain focus/remember tasks and she said it's great for when they're learning the alphabet and things like that. She'd get the students to do things that crossed the midline. Thanks for the tip!

DSS had his math quiz today (that we studied for last night) and only got 3 wrong. A huge improvement. :bowtie:


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## CraterCove

SLFarmMI said:


> It is a common misconception that doctors should be the ones "diagnosing" learning disabilities of which dyslexia is one type. They do not have the training or experience to do so. In fact, if you look at the required members of the multidisciplinary team necessary to evaluate for special education in the area of learning disabilities, doctors are not listed.


Yeah and that's a problem. Child behaviorist, psychologists and or medical doctors should be the only ones making medical/ behavioral decisions that effect the course of that child's life.

ETA: This is thread drift that gets into things that have nothing to do with the op's situation--- plus it seems to me they have topped the mountain and may be on the downhill side of things now. Seems to me she has it well in hand.


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## ErinP

Behaviorists and psychologists often ARE at IEPs. 
But why an MD?  This really _isn't_ their area...

Teachers, especially experienced SpEd teachers, are far more likely to recognize LDs than a medical doctor ever would. Probably more likely than a behaviorist or a child psychologist as well, for that matter. Neither of the former are dealing with kids and learning on a daily basis... 
Though obviously that's purpose of a team; to view issues from multiple angles and see things others might be missing.


----------



## CraterCove

Psychiatrists are MDs aren't they? before they specialize? and shouldn't the gatekeeper of your child's health be your pediatrician? The first thing I did when my 'difficult' child was singled out by teachers and administration was to go to my pediatrician to get referrals to health professionals who would know what to test for, how to diagnose and what to do afterward-- none of those things should be left in the hands of teachers and administrators. 


And again... thread drift...


----------



## MDKatie

I don't mind thread drift! Drift away!


----------



## DEKE01

CraterCove said:


> Psychiatrists are MDs aren't they? before they specialize? *and shouldn't the gatekeeper of your child's health be your pediatrician? *The first thing I did when my 'difficult' child was singled out by teachers and administration was to go to my pediatrician to get referrals to health professionals who would know what to test for, how to diagnose and what to do afterward-- none of those things should be left in the hands of teachers and administrators.
> 
> 
> And again... thread drift...


Sorry, but part of that grates on me. The gatekeeper of my child's health is me and DW. Yep, we brought in experts along the way when needed, but we didn't outsource parental responsibility.


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## CraterCove

okay, point taken. The buck stops with me... but I certainly don't allow non-medical professionals to advise me on medical matters. I don't care how much field service someone has done I'm not comfortable with them just stepping in when there is a lot of specialized and particular knowledge needed to make an accurate assessment.

My pediatrician first rules out any medical problem that could be causing difficulty (eyes, ears, so on and so forth) Then we source a psychologist to consult with regarding behavior and suggestions. And then, should the problem be extensive and seem to require the intervention of someone with a different skill set we bring in (as an absolute last course) a psychiatrist. 

A teacher can alert me to a concern, but no way am I giving them and the school administration actual power in any decisions made.


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## ErinP

CraterCove said:


> Psychiatrists are MDs aren't they? before they specialize? and shouldn't the gatekeeper of your child's health be your pediatrician?


First of all, I've never lived anywhere populated enough to have access to a pediatrician. My kids see a physician's assistant, or a GP if something is above the PA's knowledge. 
I can't even guess how far I'd have to drive to find a psychiatrist... 

Secondly, many LD's aren't medically related, or at least not to an extent that a physician is going to do something that an educator can't. And when it is something that is suspected to be medical (vision, ADHD, etc.) a referral, or at the least a recommendation, is made.

And thirdly:


> A teacher can alert me to a concern, but no way am I giving them and the school administration actual power in any decisions made.


I think you're making a pretty big assumption... :shrug:


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## CraterCove

Sooo I have to make statements about what I believe to be a proper course of action in my life based upon the hinky little unique details of your circumstances? Hmm...

Obviously access can be an issue-- but are you saying that if you truly needed a pediatric neurologist there would be absolutely no possible way for you to get to one, ever? 

Also, how is a learning disability or a behavioral problem not covered by psychology, behavior studies, medical sciences and psychiatry but it is something I should allow to be diagnosed by a teacher, administrator or a counselor whom I did not choose? I don't really understand? What kind of actual learning disability am I going to find that doesn't require some kind of medical/ behavioral knowledge to diagnose?


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## CraterCove

Keep in mind that this is the very first link I came across: http://drc.calpoly.edu/content/eligibility/whoCanDiagnose

It's from a disability resource center page at a college. 

Note how an Education Specialist is a NO on both counts for diagnosing LD or ADHD?

Also on the NO list for LD: School Counselor, Vocational Counselor,Social Worker, Speech and Language Specialist, Occupational Therapist, Psychiatrist and Physician

On the yes list, specifically for LD: Psychometrist, Neuropsychologist, Educational Psychologist, School Psychologist, Clinical Psychologist

Teacher is not on that list of Yes, not for LD or ADHD ~shrug~ As I said, a teacher can alert me to a concern but they are not necessary for diagnosis, they are in fact, extraneous to the task.


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## SLFarmMI

What kind of actual learning disability am I going to find that doesn't require some kind of medical/ behavioral knowledge to diagnose? 

All of them basically. Dyslexia (reading), dysgraphia (writing) and dyscalculia (math) are the 3 biggies. Those are the ones that I deal with mostly so I will address how a child is certified as LD in those areas. 1. The classroom teacher and/or the parent sees that something is just not right and the child is not learning at the rate he or she should be. 2. Attendance history, vision, hearing are all checked to rule those areas out as a cause of the problem. 3. Academic interventions (different types of learning activities, extra help with a tutor, etc) are put into place and progress is monitored. Interventions are tweaked as needed. 4. If the child is still not progressing and the school team with the parents decides that it is warranted, a referral for a special education evaluation is made. Depending on the child, this evaluation may involve the speech pathologist, school social worker, school psychologist, occupational therapist, teacher consultant (me). None of us are doctors. 5. We all do our various evaluations and, as a team, determine if the child fits the criteria for a certification of cognitive impairment, learning disability, emotional impairment, speech and language impaired, etc.


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## CraterCove

Unless you are a psychologist of some kind, nope, you do not have the certification necessary for me to trust you with such as diagnosing LD. Sorry, not qualified.


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## MDKatie

It seems to reason that teachers would be good at initially catching any abnormalities in learning, since they are the ones teaching so many children. It stands to reason someone who sees 25ish students a year (plus more for many teachers) would notice when something isn't quite right. Not saying a teacher is the final word on whether or not a child has a disability, but it certainly seems like they'd be a good resource for helping to diagnose.


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## SLFarmMI

CraterCove said:


> Unless you are a psychologist of some kind, nope, you do not have the certification necessary for me to trust you with such as diagnosing LD. Sorry, not qualified.



I am absolutely qualified to evaluate for a learning disability. Please see the last section of the following. 

Michigan Administrative Rules for Special Education / March 2012
Part 1

(3) A determination of learning disability shall
be based upon a full and individual evaluation
by a multidisciplinary evaluation team, which
shall include at least both of the following:
(a) The studentâs general education teacher
or, if the student does not have a general
education teacher, a general education
teacher qualified to teach a student of his
or her age or, for a child of less than school age,an
individual qualified by the state educational agency to teach a child of his or
her age.
(b)At least 1 person qualified to conduct
individual diagnostic examinations of
children and who can interpret the
instructional implications of evaluation
results, such as a school psychologist,
an authorized provider of speech and
language under R 340.1745(d), or a teacher
consultant.


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## CraterCove

I am sorry, but that doesn't meet my standards. Having input because you have field experience is one thing but over-diagnosis starts in schools. ~shrug~ Sorry.


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## SLFarmMI

CraterCove said:


> Unless you are a psychologist of some kind, nope, you do not have the certification necessary for me to trust you with such as diagnosing LD. Sorry, not qualified.


I should also add to my earlier post that many (myself included) teacher consultants, at least by me, hold, in addition to teaching certification and master's degrees, additional certification in learning disabilities. I know for a fact that I've had more classes (not counting workshops (I've had more of those as well) -- just counting college classes) in learning disabilities than our school psychologist. Just because a person has the label psychologist after his or her name, does not mean they have had much training in the field of learning disabilities.


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## CraterCove

True enough. However, that title is the absolute basement of requirements. I just don't think you understand how important my children are to me. If I don't know you personally I need certain ground floor requirements for me to even consider your opinion when talking about a potential diagnosis that will color his entire future.


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## SLFarmMI

CraterCove said:


> True enough. However, that title is the absolute basement of requirements. I just don't think you understand how important my children are to me. If I don't know you personally I need certain ground floor requirements for me to even consider your opinion when talking about a potential diagnosis that will color his entire future.



Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I personally would listen the opinion of a person who has had a myriad of education and training in addition to real experience in teaching children with learning disabilities and the associated implications (educational, emotional and social) of those disabilities. I would certainly afford that opinion at least equal weight to the person who only gives cognitive and achievement tests, has never taught and has known my child for a total of maybe 3 hours. But to each his own.


----------



## Danaus29

MDKatie said:


> It seems to reason that teachers would be good at initially catching any abnormalities in learning, since they are the ones teaching so many children. It stands to reason someone who sees 25ish students a year (plus more for many teachers) would notice when something isn't quite right. Not saying a teacher is the final word on whether or not a child has a disability, but it certainly seems like they'd be a good resource for helping to diagnose.



You would think so bit I have never found this to be true.

OP, no you shouldn't be tolerating disrespect.


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## CraterCove

SLFarmMI said:


> Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I personally would listen the opinion of a person who has had a myriad of education and training in addition to real experience in teaching children with learning disabilities and the associated implications (educational, emotional and social) of those disabilities. I would certainly afford that opinion at least equal weight to the person who only gives cognitive and achievement tests, has never taught and has known my child for a total of maybe 3 hours. But to each his own.



You know how when you get a new kind of car you suddenly notice all the cars of the same type on the road? I wouldn't want discrepancies or other underlying issues to be termed as something simply because that is what a person is used to looking for. 

We will have to agree to disagree. Perhaps were you involved in the issues I had I would not have such a bitter taste in my mouth about teachers and administrators attempting to work as diagnosticians. But I'd say the burden of proof one should have a say in my child's life is on the outsider, be they teacher, MD, or psychologist.


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## Grumpy old man

I'd fix the whole won't pay attention disrespectful attitude with a switch from the closest willow tree , all the pyscho who ha babble is why all these kids are the way they are today . This is a homesteading site not How do we pamper johnny to get him to listen . Every time he didn't do what was asked he would be cleaning stalls ,raking hay fields ,and moving dirt piles until he saw how much easier it was to study in the air conditioning sitting at a table ...Just my opinion but I bet it would work for most uninterested youngsters ! and at the very least you would have a cleaner homestead !


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## MDKatie

Thanks, but we're not going to beat our children.  Chores, yes. They both already do regular chores.


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## Grumpy old man

MDKatie said:


> Thanks, but we're not going to beat our children.  Chores, yes. They both already do regular chores.


I never said to BEAT your children . A swat on the butt will get his attention . My children are in their 30's and "survived" their upbringing just fine . time out is an invention of the current generation of young families and probably one of the reasons we have such weak children being raised today , labeling kids with some type of affliction to explain why they don't perform . many kids are seriously ill with allergies from all the antibiotic cleaners /soaps /wipes / it amazes me that some people have no problem wiping down their environment with chemicals but refuse to discipline their children because they don't want to hurt their feelings but it's ok to slowly poison them with chemicals .:soap:


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## MDKatie

Grumpy old man said:


> I never said to BEAT your children . A swat on the butt will get his attention . My children are in their 30's and "survived" their upbringing just fine . time out is an invention of the current generation of young families and probably one of the reasons we have such weak children being raised today , labeling kids with some type of affliction to explain why they don't perform . many kids are seriously ill with allergies from all the antibiotic cleaners /soaps /wipes / it amazes me that some people have no problem wiping down their environment with chemicals but refuse to discipline their children because they don't want to hurt their feelings but it's ok to slowly poison them with chemicals .:soap:


In my opinion, using anything but your hand to spank a child is beating (and sometimes people go overboard using their hands too). I'm not a fan of spanking at all, and I was spanked a few times as a child. It's not about not hurting their feelings, it's about not using physical violence. No point in arguing about it, you have your opinion and I have mine. :thumb:

And check what's in that soap box! It could be filled with toxic chemicals. :teehee:


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## Grumpy old man

our entire world involves violence from the government to walking down the street it's used as a deterrent for inappropriate behavior best learned at home before it slaps them in the face as an adult .and my soap box contains Castile soap :smack


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## MDKatie

Grumpy old man said:


> our entire world involves violence from the government to walking down the street it's used as a deterrent for inappropriate behavior best learned at home before it slaps them in the face as an adult .and my soap box contains Castile soap :smack


So why bring it into the home? Government should not use force/violence to control citizens, but parents should use violence to control their children?


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## Grumpy old man

Lets agree to disagree about home discipline ,it's a generational thing and what I would consider appropriate some may not .Violence is such a strong word and I would not consider a child being reprimanded violence . It just seems to me that the more a child is coddled the less prepared they are in real life situations when mommy or daddy is not there to hold their hand and yet those who despise violence in the home provide very violent video games to children . This post is not directed at you it's just my own personal opinion ! I would never allow any video game into my home ,i would much rather see those kids outside enjoying nature where they could actually learn something !


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## CraterCove

I don't know if its a generational thing or not. I'm 34... the troublesome child I was talking about in my life is now 12. The reason he stopped being troublesome was a year of homeschooling to show him there were no excuses and no way he was going to get away with refusing to learn. Once we crested the hill... as I said, he reads for entertainment gets high marks in math and science (still has horrible handwriting but then again so do I, I am an all caps writer) and genuinely enjoys learning new things.

And, if he wants play time, whether he is being homeschooled or public schooled he has to help clean stalls. He's a tall gangly little dude and I swear I'll get some muscle on his lanky behind yet!

I don't shy away from corporal punishment when warranted. However, I would not ever use anything but my own hand. It is too hard to gauge force when you add an implement to the equation and while getting their attention is important, not taking overmuch chance of long term or permanent damage. In fact certain forms of punishment are meant to ostracize and 'hurt feelings' it uses our herd or pack instincts, our desire to be accepted by the group to alter behavior that is considered maladaptive or harmful to the well-being of the group. This can be accomplished by a number of different means-- different children learn with different stimuli. 

I think it sounds like the OP has this situation under control, however, it seemed they had a breakthrough.


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## Grumpy old man

It's a generational thing because I have boots that are older than 34 !ound:


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## MDKatie

Grumpy old man said:


> Lets agree to disagree about home discipline


Yep, I said that a few posts back. No sense in arguing over differing opinions because they don't change very often. 



CraterCove said:


> I think it sounds like the OP has this situation under control, however, it seemed they had a breakthrough.


For now it seems, but the school year just started. :thumb:


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## DEKE01

MDKatie said:


> So why bring it into the home? Government should not use force/violence to control citizens, but parents should use violence to control their children?



EXACTLY!

I swatted my young daughter a few times when she was violently out of control or refusing to do things like wear pants in the middle of winter and needed to go somewhere. Spanking because they aren't learning the way a teacher wants them to learn isn't going to help anything. SPanking them because they have so much energy they can't sit still isn't going to help. 

And maybe if kids didn't see so much parental control = physical force, people wouldn't grow up and accept gov't control = physical force.


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## CraterCove

Parental 'control' is supposed to be keeping them alive until they have grown enough sense to hopefully make it on their own. Governmental control is to create slaves, mindless cogs in the machine that fills its coffers. Big difference in intent. 

Also, I have boots that are older than me, they were my mother's. With proper care a well made pair of boots should last generations!


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## MDKatie

Met with DSS's teacher tonight for back to school night. She said that homework is practice, not a torture session, and the kids should be spending 30-40 minutes max on it. She said if it's taking longer, then something isn't right and if it's just not working out then send her a note saying the kids tried and it wasn't working. She said for the most part they should be able to get it themselves, with maybe a little parental help. 

She also said they have math first thing in the morning (at 7:45), so he's likely forgetting some of what he learned by the time he gets home and does homework (4pm). He eats lunch at 10:45, so we're going to make sure he has a good snack before homework, and maybe some "chill out" time before starting, so he's not tired and hungry. We think that'll help the situation too, and hopefully prevent any more frustrating homework sessions.


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## Grumpy old man

Beat him ! , Beat him I say !,Tar and feather the little monster! , Throw him in the barn with the hogs for a nite ! Wear his rump out with a switch ! ..........No Really I'm glad you had a chance to talk with his teacher and come up with a plan .Good for you ! :bow:


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## Grumpy old man

And when that doesn't work try the hogs !:nono:


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## MDKatie

Grumpy old man said:


> Beat him ! , Beat him I say !,Tar and feather the little monster! , Throw him in the barn with the hogs for a nite ! Wear his rump out with a switch ! ..........No Really I'm glad you had a chance to talk with his teacher and come up with a plan .Good for you ! :bow:





Grumpy old man said:


> And when that doesn't work try the hogs !:nono:


:rotfl:


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## CraterCove

OMG Old Man, you kill me, but in a good way. 

Glad you've got a good teacher to help with this. Math and Sciences really should be in the morning when the brain is fresh and alert-- I definitely save language arts for the afternoon. I had some science to back that up at one point but I lost it, so now I just have to work on faith that it's correct.

I'm rooting for you and DSS, it will get better!


----------



## IndyGardenGal

MDKatie- I could have written your post about my younger daughter. I've had teachers tell us that there MUST be something going on (along with their ADHD suggestions). So after a lot of doctors including a Behavioral doc that said he could see ADHD, but then referred us out to a neuropsychologist for brain mapping. Guess what? No learning disability, no ADHD, she just doesn't learn in the way public schools teach. That simple. So we are moving to homeschooling, and I have some resources that we've found to already be great tools that engage her in a fun way, so she does learn without tears. Send me a message, and I can get that information for you.

As for spanking, it's considered negative reinforcement punishment. Consider you're speeding and you see a cop car. You slow down right then, but do you stop speeding altogether? No. You only slow down when you have a fear of being caught. That's what negative reinforcement does, IMO. I'd rather teach my kids the logic behind why their behavior is wrong, so they understand, and positively reinforce the behaviors I want to see more of. And really, if he's got a bad attitude because he feels defeated, how will spanking make that better?

Just my opinion.


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## CraterCove

I love it when I see parents trying to logic and reason their 2 year old out of running into traffic.  Just saying, Negative reinforcement has it's uses. I'm not going to throw out a hammer because it won't work to paint my wall.


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## MDKatie

CraterCove said:


> I love it when I see parents trying to logic and reason their 2 year old out of running into traffic.  Just saying, Negative reinforcement has it's uses. I'm not going to throw out a hammer because it won't work to paint my wall.


I would think grabbing the 2 year old and actually supervising him would be better than spanking him to tell him not to go in traffic. You can't reason and explain things with a 2 year old, but you can with a 10 year old.


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## CraterCove

You are absolutely correct... I don't think I have laid hand to behind since they were padded with diaper. WHen it comes to circumstances that mean their life, it's the shock that matters, the pulling and holding of attention, more than anything else. 

I remember a horse trainer once telling me it's not the strike but the sound, the sort of 'snapping to' and demonstrated by placing his hand on the rump of a horse and then clapping it with the other hand. The horse reacted exactly as if it had actually just been struck, even though he was not.

I happen to believe that if you still feel the need to use physical punishment on a 10 year old--- dude, you've failed somewhere along the way.


----------



## Grumpy old man

I started 3 different times to respond again to this post and retracted my opinion so as not to ruffle the feathers of the mother hens ,BUT since this is an open forum in a HOMESTEADING site I have to say that some of us have already delt with these issues 20 -30 years ago and we have already lived thru the outcome of a child being paddled to correct inappropriate behavior and None of my children were DAMAGED by my actions as they were growing up or have any residual effects .When a 30 something year old parent comments on "the correct way " you have to realize many of us "older folks still see you as children yourselves "When you find out that time out or reducing the amount of time you allow video games /cell phone use or television will lead your child down the road to self entitlement because your child sees no reason to listen to you other than a temporary loss of entertainment time from weapons of war 3 /grand theft auto /some other video were they constantly kill people or trolls under a bridge and the only recourse for killing hundreds a day is to push the reset button ! the "wussification of children " continues and this is a HOMESTEADING site not how to coddle little Johnny in suburbia !! In my educated opinion ! you may not like my opinion but when little johnny is doing drugs,stealing and disrespecting you when he is 15 because you never set rules and boundaries and consequences when they were younger you may think differently .What made you respect your parents decisions when you were younger time out or a paddled butt for not obeying their rules ?:smack


----------



## CraterCove

Well, if we are talking about my mother, I still don't respect her. She spends my father's hard earned money and mopes about not ever 'going anywhere' or 'doing anything' when they go out to dinner and other meals many times a week. She goes on vacations by herself with her friends and he never gets to do the same.

However, if we are talking about my father. He spanked me but that's not what hurt the most. And I learned from him-- I can make a child who has done something he ought not to have cry without laying a hand to him. Do not discount the use of disappointment and a higher standard. Punishment, even corporal punishment is psychological. It's all about leverage, I want maximum effect with minimum force.

Of course, I also learned how not to get punished by learning how not to get caught.


----------



## MDKatie

Grumpy old man said:


> .What made you respect your parents decisions when you were younger time out or a paddled butt for not obeying their rules ?:smack



You're arguing your point to the wrong person. My parents spanked me only a couple times and I can tell you my mom's lectures were worse. I get that you like spanking, and you think that's the "correct" way to raise children. You've certainly said that enough times in this thread. The horse is already dead, you can stop beating it. I never said my way was the "correct" way to raise children, but it is the correct way for OUR family. And arguing your opinion about video games is pointless, because the kids hardly play a single video game, and when they do they're at their mother's house. 

And since when does homesteading mean you have to spank? And I can guarantee not a single one of my siblings (or I) deal drugs or anything like that. We're all upstanding members of society, hard workers, good parents, good people, etc. So really, we're tired of hearing about spanking. :soap:


----------



## Grumpy old man

1st I'm Not arguing with anyone !,
2nd I never said anything about "your children " and never would !
3rd I'm Posting my opinion just like I wrote and have no dog in your race !

So don't take someone posting on an anonymous site so personal ! I think you may need a time out and reread my post in no way was it directed to anyone in particular !


----------



## ErinP

> the "wussification of children " continues and this is a HOMESTEADING site not how to coddle little Johnny in suburbia !



I think you're confusing two _very_ different issues. 


There is no connection between spanking and homesteading... There never has been.


----------



## Grumpy old man

ErinP said:


> I think you're confusing two _very_ different issues.
> 
> 
> There is no connection between spanking and homesteading... There never has been.


I only posted "MY" own opinion, To each their own . :duel:

But isn't that the whole idea when posting a problem on an open forum to ask for different opinions and ideas that may have worked for others ? because if all you want is to hear what you want to hear how does that help ? It's like holding up a red flag and when someone says "that looks crimson " your offended ?


----------



## IndyGardenGal

CraterCove said:


> I love it when I see parents trying to logic and reason their 2 year old out of running into traffic.  Just saying, Negative reinforcement has it's uses. I'm not going to throw out a hammer because it won't work to paint my wall.


I'm assuming this was directed at me. I was speaking in terms of my child that's around the same age as OPs child. I have 4 kids, and I deal with each child as needed. I'm not saying negative reinforcement doesn't have uses, because sometimes natural consequences serve as negative reinforcement.

Maybe my kids are just easier than others. I came from a spanking family, but I was only spanked maybe twice in my life. I was a naturally compliant and easy-going child.


----------



## ErinP

Grumpy old man said:


> I only posted "MY" own opinion, To each their own . :duel:
> 
> But isn't that the whole idea when posting a problem on an open forum to ask for different opinions and ideas that may have worked for others ? because if all you want is to hear what you want to hear how does that help ? It's like holding up a red flag and when someone says "that looks crimson " your offended ?


huh?:huh:
I'm not even remotely offended... 


I was just pointing out that your logic is _extremely_ faulty. You said that because this is a homesteading site, people should be supportive of spanking. That's like saying that because the sky is blue, people should be supportive of spanking. 

One has nothing whatsoever to do with the other... :shrug:


----------



## Grumpy old man

Well... IN MY OPINION , those who are farming /ranching , and have been for a while are less apt to join into the psycho babble of todays generational fads of "we'll just reward little johnny until he sees the error of his ways " mindset .let's take him to a psychotherapist for treatment of his ADD and stick the poor little overactive kid on some type of medication instead of putting him outside to play and burn off the extra energy .Seems to me many kids aren't even leaving the house to get out and play anymore let alone get dirty or heaven forbid play in the mud ! Everything today is antibiotic soaps /sprays /washes /detergents and the kids are sickly weak and afflicted with weird allergies because they have never been exposed to any dirt and have been forced to live in a bubble . I'm not sure what these kids would do if they were told to go out and play would that mean sit on the sun porch with a game boy ?

I in NO way encourage anyone to BEAT their children ,but yes if the situation warrants it a spanking should still be a tool of parenting .


----------



## CraterCove

I agree with Old Man.


----------



## ErinP

well you can if you want, but it makes no sense whatsoever. :shrug:

Even 200 years ago, there were people who didn't believe in spanking to discipline...
You're drawing conclusions from things that are completely unrelated. 

It looks more like an excuse to be judgmental.


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## IndyGardenGal

Just because we don't spank doesn't mean we don't practice discipline and put our kids in a bubble while praising them for being special little snowflakes. Honestly, it takes a lot more work from a parent to not use physical forms of discipline. So maybe you've met someone that says, "We don't spank." When really they should be telling you, "We don't parent our children at all."

What's funny about the idea that not spanking means physically weak TV zombies that can't hack it outside. I have pictures of my girls covered head to toe in mud after a torrential downpour. Most people can't believe how my kids don't cry or whine unless they are REALLY hurt. In fact, we had a mother at the playground act offended because my 6 year old told a child that tripped and cried to "rub some dirt on it.":teehee:


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## wyld thang

whew. Y'all please remember that children absorb and reflect the caregiver's attitudes about learning. Sure the kids add in their own quirks to the mix, but parental attitude is hugely important. Look at your self, how do you go about learning something new, do you seek out learning new things and experiences, do you look for ways to improve the wheel--design and efficiency of everyday life. 

Katie I would say you need to go back to the beginning and "reprogram" new attitudes for learning. Find something outside of school stuff, that he is interested in and do all you can to provide him a positive inspiring experience where he is successful and that success is won by his effort. Find something to learn together that is fun and satisfying. Give him plenty of space and time to just go WOW.


----------



## fordy

MDKatie said:


> I'd love to get some tips on how to deal with my DSS's poor attitude when it comes to learning new things. He's 10, and in 5th grade in a public school. Since he was in kindergarten, he has had a poor attitude when it comes to learning new things. Reading, writing, addition, subtration, multiplication, division, fractions, etc. You name it, when he was first learning it he convinced himself he couldnt' do it, and would practically shut down when we tried to help him.
> 
> It seems maybe he doesn't pay attention in class, or doesn't ask questions when he doesn't know something, so we end up teaching him at home pretty much. He's sitting next to kids he doesn't know this year, so I don't think the problem is him talking. Maybe he's daydreaming or zoning out? He doesn't need glasses, doesn't have trouble hearing, and doesn't have a learning disability. He just psychs himself out so badly that he gets so frustrated he'll end up in tears before we even start learning something!
> 
> Each time, it's the same old song and dance. He'll get worked up before we even start teaching him something. We'll have to calmly explain he needs to calm down and have a positive attitude or else we won't get anywhere. Then we'll teach him something, staying positive about it the whole time. He'll finally stop resisting and actually listen, then he'll understand the new concept and be able to do it himself.
> 
> The thing is, it's getting REALLY old. It is very hard to keep cool and calm when all I want to do is get frustrated at him for his poor attitude. We remind him every time people aren't born knowing how to read, talk, ride bikes, do addition, etc...and that it takes practice to learn it and get it down. I feel like we've gone through this enough, and I don't know if we're coddling him at this point or not. I don't want to have to sit down with him every single night to do his homework with him (or help explain everything) for his entire school career. I feel like he should maybe be a little more independent.
> 
> I don't want to get tough on him, because he truly is getting very frustrated, and I don't want to make him feel like he's being bad....BUT, we've tried telling him it's no fun for US to teach him when he's crying and having a poor attitude.
> 
> So, any ideas,suggestions, tips, etc would be great. DH and I usually work together at this, and one will take over when the other is getting frustrated. I want to keep learning/teaching a positive experience for both parents and student, but it's really hard. Has anyone had this experience? Is it something that will get better with age?


................You need to cultivate his interest IN a Hobby such as Model airplanes , his creativity (and intelligence) will soon reveal itself by building the balsa wood models , studying the plans , and he will soon (with help and encouragement) be able to put the kits together until finished ! By starting with the simple balsa gliders and progressing into the more complex models , he will learn the same way he would have in school......i.e. from the concrete examples into the abstract examples . DONOT RUSH HIM , allow him to progress at his own pace . The reason he is not learning in school is because he has been demoralized by his peers and and categorized as "Dumb" or slow . He doesn't learn because he is afraid of failure ................IF he doesn't participate , he can't fail ! 
...................In addition , he will keep failing in public school until he realizes his tormentors were wrong ! It would be best to completely remove him from his present school and place him somewhere he doesn't have a reputation as Dumb...........................he needs a NEW start , in a less demoralizing school learning environment ! , fordy


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## MDKatie

He doesn't have a reputation as dumb, not sure where that came from. His teacher says he's doing well, and does his work at school.


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## fordy

MDKatie said:


> He doesn't have a reputation as dumb, not sure where that came from. His teacher says he's doing well, and does his work at school.


 
.............I suppose I overstated his problems , I substituted my adjective for yours and it was not correct ! , sorry , fordy


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