# Not worse; not better



## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I have a 10 day old bull calf that isn't doing well. He was sick last week - I thought it was pnemonia. But, it's scours. I have LA200-ed, Neomycin-ed, electrolyt-ed, peptobismal-ed, and yogurt-ed him and he is still alive - but not getting better. I called the vet - he said to give him a shot of neomycin ( I was using the oral stuff). He doesn't recommend scour tablets anymore. Not that I can find them around here anyway.

I was using bounce back - but you are supposed to alternate the BB with milk. I can't ever get a whole 2 qts of milk down him - barely 1 so I started going out to give him something every 4 hours. I haven't gone over 1 gallon a day. It seemed like the milk was making his stomach hurt. Electrolytes have been easy to get down most of the time. I switched to Re-sorb - another electrolyte that you are supposed to use ONLY for 2 days, then mix 1/2 and 1/2 with the milk then 1/4:3/4 - each for a day. *Anyone have a home remedy that might help this calf over the hump? *He is weak, but still stands on his own. Doesn't follow me but did look up and at me the last time I was out there. He is a bag of bones. He does drink water from his water bucket.


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

Callie - I posted a homemade recipe here a year ago - but can't find the thread - wish I was home. I learned it at UW Madison - Dr. Brisol's Calf Scour Remedy/Elixir. It called for 1 can of beef consomme (thicker than broth), salt substitute (kcl), something else - perhaps baking soda, and water to two quarts. The dosage was similar to the Resorb as far as transitioning back to milk. You can try with beef broth, and 1 Tablespoon of salt substitute. It certainly can't hurt.

One thought - unless he is a large breed such as Holstein or a large framed beef, he doesn't need 1 gallon per day. It is good that he still stands on his own. What color is the diarrhea? That may help someone here with a diagnosis. E coli, coccidiosis, ... Do you know how much water he consumes on his own? What his temperature is? It does sound like he needs ENERGY - without sending the bacteria into a reproducing frenzy.

Something I wonder about - with people we always talk about using all of the antibiotic prescribed - even if feeling better. The point being that an antibiotic doesn't kill the bacteria, it keeps the bacteria from multiplying. So you need to treat long enough that the youngest bacteria die of old age without reproducing. 

I'll check for the recipe when I get home.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Thanks - he's the largest calf I have ever had my hands on. He is so big that I almost can't straddle him (back when I was working on his bottle feeding skills.). His manure is almost clear water at times - other times, very runny yellow. 

so maybe he needs more antibiotics? I wasn't sure how much to give or how often. 
I don't know how much water he is drinking - it isn't much, but I didn't even know he could drink from a bucket. 

I have the beef consume - but not the salt sub....I'll google the sub....and see if I can find it.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Have you given him any probiotics to help get the good bacteria going again? Also give him the one quart milk with two eggs( your own if you have them from a neighbor if you don`t) and a package of knox jello in the milk. How long have you been giving the anitiotics? You should only give them for three to four days. Do you have any fresh garlic? Crush a clove and give that to him also. > Thanks Marc


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

Ok, this should get him in teh right direction. First get some Sulfa drug(Sustain III, SUlmet, SMZ/Bactrum Tablets) preferable teh SMZ'z from the vet. They are sulfamtephzine tablets same as human bactrums. Also at the vet get either Nuflur Draxin shot for him. LA 200 seems to only really shine on hoof root and pink eye. But in this case this guy really needs the sulfa. I am battle the same scours he has in 2 day old calves right now. A day of the SMZ's and they are turning around. Beleive me I am about ready to pull my hair out now. 8 new heifers in 5 days with one having twins. Then my old jersey dropped one too this morn. SO 10 calves in 5 days
Later
Bob


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Thanks, Marc....I will try it. I found a recipe similar to what chix mentioned and used pectin, beef broth, baking soda. I will mix up your suggestion when I go back out in a couple of hours. I really need him to start needing the milk. I have been giving him my own yogurt with the probiotics in it. I do have chickens. I think some of the electrolytes have antibiotics in them - otherwise, I gave him 3 shots - 12 hours apart. That was 3 days ago.

Madsaw, Congratulations on all the calves. My vet is no help. He carries very little medications for cows. I only used the LA 200 when I thought he might have pneumonia. I found sustainIII at the feed store but those pills were SO BIGGG and for calves that were already on hay and grain. NO sulf-meds here at all. I might have to run to Carla's and see what she can get up there if he doesn't improve tomorrow.


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

*Dr. Bristol's Calf Scour Elixir*
1 can (~14 oz) Beef consomme
1 package sure jell
2T baking soda
1 Tbs Lite Salt (kcl)
2 qts water (warm)

Feed this mixture 3-4 feedings, begin transition back to milk by mixing 3/4 elixir to 1/4 milk, then 50:50, then 25:75.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Chixarecute said:


> *Dr. Bristol's Calf Scour Elixir*
> 1 can (~14 oz) Beef consomme
> 1 package sure jell
> 2T baking soda
> ...


Thanks - Yes, that's the recipe I fed him tonight. But, he's already been on electrolytes for 2 days. I don't think he will last if I only pump those into him. I am going to try the milk mix Marc suggested and see what happens. If he is worse in the am, I will go back to this formula.


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

Callieslamb said:


> Thanks, Marc....I will try it. I found a recipe similar to what chix mentioned and used pectin, beef broth, baking soda. I will mix up your suggestion when I go back out in a couple of hours. I really need him to start needing the milk. I have been giving him my own yogurt with the probiotics in it. I do have chickens. I think some of the electrolytes have antibiotics in them - otherwise, I gave him 3 shots - 12 hours apart. That was 3 days ago.
> 
> Madsaw, Congratulations on all the calves. My vet is no help. He carries very little medications for cows. I only used the LA 200 when I thought he might have pneumonia. I found sustainIII at the feed store but those pills were SO BIGGG and for calves that were already on hay and grain. NO sulf-meds here at all. I might have to run to Carla's and see what she can get up there if he doesn't improve tomorrow.


Yeah there is 2 sizes of the SIII. Even the calf boluse ones are big. We use a small boluse gun to give them. Even a good dose of Sulmet liquid will work too. But it gives what ever you mix it in a bitter taste and sometimes turns the calf off from drinking it. In my experince pennicillin will be even better choice in this app then the LA. I belive there is also another calf boluse you can by at some feed stores that is the sulfamenazole. It too will also work. I think it comes in a yellow and white bottle. 
Is it very offten you need a sulfa med for your calves? 

Thanks about the calves. This bull we used is seeming to throw alot of bull calves compared normal. I just got to think only 14 more heifers togo in teh next month. Plus all the dry milk cows. WOW !!! What am I thinkin, am I nuts. Can anyone hide me out for a few months so I can get out of feeding all them little hungry calves.
Bob


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

I don`t know if I`m just lucky and if I know that much, but we are organic here and if we get sick animals we have to treat them organicly. We do use antibiotics if it comes to a last resort, but on the most part get along very well doing what we do. I have always done alot of old time remedies and they work well for us, I am a firm believer that there are natural cures out there we can use. We harvest natural plants that grow on our farm to use for some of our remedies, and not just for our animals but also for us. Callie I do hope you get along very well with your calf, I wish I was there to help you, as I have said before I hate making these long distance diagnosis. Talk later > Marc


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Marc,
I love your posts. You are quite the asset to this forum. 

I lost the calf this morning. I hate it. I want to quit farming today...but hopefully, a day with a large rootbeer and a sewing machine will get me back on my feet. He tried. He really, really tried. I tried too. I will keep your recipe for if we have this trouble again. I wished I had tried it sooner.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Callie, I`m sorry you lost your calf, and trust me I do also loose calves, just not very often. I know how you feel about wanting to give it up, I have had alot of days like that as of late. Just chalk it up to learning, things get better, you learn from what you do. > Thanks Marc


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Callie, BTW the rootbeer sounds wonderful, one of my downfalls. > Marc


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

got too busy for the rootbeer.....Decided work was what I needed to do. Some good friends stopped by to pick up chickens and helped me bury him. Now there's some friends. It's a slump....dang it. and now the cow has mastitis......raining and pouring here, but not snowing. 

We were trying to let DS 10, earn some money by raising calves. Not a good beginning to his experience. 

Thanks


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

Wish you was closer. Could set you back up with a few in no time. RIght now smaller colored calves are not worth nothing. My half sister has been buying calves for 10 cents a pound the last few weeks. Granted they are the smaller sickly looking ones. SO far they been haveing decent luck on them.
Bob


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I was dumping 15 gallons of milk a week. I hated that waste. We could try milk shares....or buy some calves to drink it. We decided on calves. We don't actually "do" calves but thought to maybe keep 2 on hand for a while for that extra milk - letting DS raise them and earn the money. I have one milk cow, hopefully, eventually, she will calve. I went to a big dairy near Grnd Rapids and boughttwo bulls. We were planning to sell as feeder calves in a few months. Probably after winter. 

How far are you from Chicago? I am 2 hours away on the east side of the lake. Not sure I want to get another calf right now......but I have that one lonely one in the barn now. After this week, I wouldn't mind just dumping the milk again! but I will get my never back soon. I can get a jersey calf here for $20 - I picked holsteins this round - they were $70. 

I will keep looking for sulfa- drugs for scours though. I might as well have them on hand. I haven't found ANY here. Do they happen to need refrigeration? I was thinking boluses - not refrigerated meds. Maybe some store has them in the fridge. And I can get my good friend, Carla, to pick me up too - she lives up north in dairy land. I live in the midst of all the apple trees. 

I appreciate all the help and encouragement.


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

We're close to 4 1/2 hrs from chicago. It would be to much gas money for a calf or 2.
The sulfa drugs are little boluses. SO they are just on the shelf. Might be something in yoru area you have to ask for at teh farm store. I will look up a few brand names for you. If you ever had to take Bactrum the doctor prescirbed to you. That is what I use on the calves right now. 2 pills per 100 lbs twice a day. Its cheaper then the S III when they are little. If you need anything just let me know . 
Later
Bob


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

That was nice of your friends to help you bury the calf, they have a saying around here, " Friends help you move, and good friends help you move the body" guess in your case it was a calf. Don`t give up yet, > Thanks Marc


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I'm not giving up. DH told me to go get another calf.....So I will probably brave that issue next week. It was really nice of them. Now I am challenged to be such a friend too. 

Bob- thanks. I will look around here. MY feed store will buy what I want for me...but I hate to have them have things on the shelf that they can't sell to others. Bactrum is a people med? I haven't taken antibiotics in years and years!


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## Looking4ewes (Apr 30, 2006)

Is it possible to get an older calf? My first purchased calf was 2 weeks old when I got him. It was a very easy transition, particularly helpful since I'm inexperienced.

Sorry about the mastitis, too. ;-(


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

That's what we decided to do. ANOTHER good friend, helped me find a calf that will be 10 days old and already drinking off a bucket - I will pick him up on Wed of next week. He will cost me just a tad more, but I am sure it will be worth it.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I just caught up on this. So sorry to hear you lost him~ but I'm happy to see you getting back at it right away! And yes~ friends that will help you bury are friends to keep!! I've got a few of those~ but only a few.


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## Bret4207 (May 31, 2008)

Callie, I feel your pain. I lost a nice heifer and a cow this summer. I'm not a natural "cow" guy, but I'm learning. I guess we just have to keep trying. Funny, I can spot a sick lamb 100 yards away but didn;t pick up on pneumonia right in front of me.

Keep the faith.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

It's never easy for me. But....teaching DS is more important than a calf. We did what we could for him. Glad he wasn't a big cow! Don't know that I could face that one.


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## Chixarecute (Nov 19, 2004)

Callieslamb - just a thought - if you are putting the new calf into the same stall/barn as the one that got sick - you may want to consider some santizing before you bring the newbie in - a spray of 10% bleach with 90% water should kill a lot of things - soak down the walls, floor, crevices. Also do the buckets, bottles, etc.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

The other one I bought is in that stall and he is thriving - eats hay and grain on his own now, jumps, runs and makes a nuisance of himself. Good thought though. Obviously what was wrong with the one wasn't contagious. I really think he had some kind of damage from birth. His eyes were blood shot when I bought him which said "hard birth" to me. A lesson learned there. He was weak and the switch to a new situation just too much stress for him. He got sick and couldn't recover. Alas.


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