# choices on rifles



## Rose_Thorn (Mar 29, 2008)

im stuck with the choice of purchasing a rifle im down to the .556 AR-15 or the .556 FN F2000 any advice?? its for hunting and home defense


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## ericjeeper (Feb 25, 2006)

I would start out with a good 22 caliber rifle and a 12 gauge shotgun. Wait til after this Obana crisis has blown by and then by the AR


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

the AR has the most options of any gun in the world , no other gun is so widly accesorized 

you were asking 5.56 or 7.62 nato for hunting i would say 7.62 nato but since you are asking one 5.56 vs another 5.56 then go with the one that every one knows how to work on that has hundresds if not thousands of variations all built on the same reciver 
mags are relitivly cheap and widly avaliable 


think about it this way you are deep in the heart of brand XXX trucks everybody drives them ,everybody works on them , they sell spare parts and accessories at darn near every store in the area and you can usualy find one for a fair price and for aguments sake work just as well as brand yyy trucks why would you buy a brand yyy truck 


cause guns are really just tools , like trucks , you want reasonably priced , dependable, with parts and accessories readly available.


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

I agree with Pete. Just so many options for the AR based guns. If you need a bigger rifle get a AR-10.
Pete is it nice and wet over your way too?
Bob


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Madsaw said:


> I agree with Pete. Just so many options for the AR based guns. If you need a bigger rifle get a AR-10.
> Pete is it nice and wet over your way too?
> Bob


yeah wet, not quite as bad as last year anyway not yet , most all the roads are still open , but they were out starting back in febuary working on ditches and new drainage along many of the roads in the county 

only think keeping me from picking up a couple AR's myself is the $$$ the kids would love them about their size too with the clapsing stocks 

i have a lot of respect for the m1a and m1 garand darn fine rifles and have stood the test of time , some complain about the unreliability of thier 60s and early 70s m16 while in the service but the most major blunder there was that the gov understated the actual maintinece nessasary - very tight tolerances leave little room for dirt if you want to be able to bury it in the sand and pull it out and shoot it get an AK they have plenty of slop in them for dirt , sand and poor cleaning practacies 

think about it this way they m16 have been the primary weapon system for the US military for aprox 1966 to 2009 and look to stay that way for now at least for several more years that is longer than the M1 garand often called the worlds greatest battle rifle was in service.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

The biggest problem with the M16 was changing the powder to get 200fps more and not chroming the chamber....besides the little poodle shooter round......That being said,as long as you keep it clean,it will run......The problem with AR's now is ridiculous prices and ammo cost...but if you build one from a rcvr,you can do it a lot cheaper.If you don't reload,ammo is very expensive....and some AR's don't like steel case ammo.I just sold one and am thinking of selling my other one...Just more comfortable with a Kalashnikov or FAL...BTW-when you get done hanging all the junk on it so you look "high speed,low drag",it weighs more than an M1A....


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## denaliguide (Aug 30, 2008)

SKS, foolproof and cheap. Mini-14, dependable, and uses 5.56 and lots of accessories. Shotgun for bigger dangerous game and serious close-in social work. Good accurate .22 LR, Marlin 25 w/ a 1" 4X scope. Three guns, 99% coverage.

Good Luck,

DG



zant said:


> The biggest problem with the M16 was changing the powder to get 200fps more and not chroming the chamber....besides the little poodle shooter round......That being said,as long as you keep it clean,it will run......The problem with AR's now is ridiculous prices and ammo cost...but if you build one from a rcvr,you can do it a lot cheaper.If you don't reload,ammo is very expensive....and some AR's don't like steel case ammo.I just sold one and am thinking of selling my other one...Just more comfortable with a Kalashnikov or FAL...BTW-when you get done hanging all the junk on it so you look "high speed,low drag",it weighs more than an M1A....


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Did'nt think of SKS,excellent choice...even at today's prices,you can buy 2 and have enough for a .22 and ammo...compared to AR prices I've seen..


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## pookiethebear (Apr 29, 2008)

Are you sure you can hunt with an AR15 in your state? In pa you can use an AR15 for cyotes, that is it.


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

Pete are you going to woodford this weekend? It sure will be a muddy mess there.
Bob


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## farmerjon (Jan 7, 2009)

I would go with the AR. The only issue you are going to have is you said home deffense and hunting. You will have a hard time building the same ar to do both. You will want a longer barel with a long range scope and possible even a bipod for the hunting AR. and a short barrel with a low power scope or even a laser, or just a flash light. 2 totaly diffrent guns. But the AR will do what you want and in an hour or so you can change the gun to do what you want it to do. Good luck finding one for under a grand. You might be better off buying 2 guns. .223 bolt action and a 12ga for the house. Just my thought


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## FB.Ironworker (Feb 27, 2009)

I'm wondering if i wait till i see if this oboma thing will blow over or if it's going to be impossible to buy tactical rifles. as far as ammo, there are still reasonably prices. i own a ak-74 which fires the 5.45x39 and that ammo is hard to find, not to mention 308 ammo.


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## denaliguide (Aug 30, 2008)

cant hunt big game in PA with an auto, I know that.

Once you run some boiling water thru the reciprocating parts, lube them with WD-40 & light graphite, you can fire it at -40 F with nary a hitch.

Use the Sierra 125 gr grn tip for a BC of .366. More than good enuf for deer, even lung shots on moose under 200 yds.

Add a Chicom 20 Rd internal mag, and you have a flawless rugged weapon.
It aint purty, but it will do the job over and over again. The stripper clips are so fast to load with minimal practice, anything else is simply not worth it.

Having had a M-16, an M-14, a Mini-14 & a Mini -30, I cannot understand why people are stuck on any AR, other than a Stoner??? Does not make sense.

But hey, dont let me stop you from paying double to have something that looks good. My SKS looks like crap covered with mud until I pull the trigger. After the first couple rounds go down range it starts looking pretty good.
All the women I have taught to shoot, like the Chinese copy, the Chicom 56 pretty good, as it fits their proportions nicely and doesnt hurt them. My estimation is that a female, even minimally trained on an SKS could be a real problem for a hostile.

Oh well,

DG



zant said:


> Did'nt think of SKS,excellent choice...even at today's prices,you can buy 2 and have enough for a .22 and ammo...compared to AR prices I've seen..


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## Jack T. (Feb 11, 2008)

Rose_Thorn said:


> im stuck with the choice of purchasing a rifle im down to the .556 AR-15 or the .556 FN F2000 any advice?? its for hunting and home defense


Just a point of clarification. . .

a .556 AR-15 would fire a bullet that was either *tiny* (half a millimeter) or *huge* (half of an inch).

I think you meant to say either 5.56mm or .223cal. The decimal point is important 

I'm a huge fan of the AR platform. If you want more punch than the .223 offers, look at the 6.8 or bump up to an AR-10.

You *did* vote for McCain, right? Else you supported the candidate who has promised to take the AR platform away from civilians. . .:flame:


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## Hooligan (Jul 18, 2007)

.223 and 5.56 are not interchangeable in all AR-15s. If it can shoot 5.56 then .223 can be used also but the reverse is not always true. Make sure you know what you are buying if you want to be able to shoot 5.56.

Around here the tactical weapons craze is beginning to slow down. Stores that were selling any EBR's they could get immediately for outrageous prices are now advertising "great deals and many in stock".

Of the two rifles you mention I would go with the AR simply because you can easily build different rifles for different purposes from the one receiver.


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## h8mtv (Apr 26, 2009)

Why not build a 22lr Ar15? All the great options open, cheap to shoot and now than BDM and CMMG make mags they are 100% reliable with federal bulk. 


You can always swap out uppers to one in 5.56, 7.62x39, etc. 

If in your area you can't hunt with a rifle or a semi rifle I'd go with a slug gun in a minute.


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## denaliguide (Aug 30, 2008)

they are exactly the same cartridge with differing designations as is 7.62 Nato vs. .308 Winchester.

Please dont share that kind of mis-information, for that are people reading this who actually might think you know what your talking about.

If you want a genisis of the cartridge, let me know and I will share one with you.

Please under stand that the 7.62 X 39 known as the AK round, is also known as the 30 Russian Short, not to be confused with the 7.62 X 54 Russian 30.

Note that these guys all have Metric as well as English decimal names.

To make that clear, the venerable .30/'06 Springfield is known in some places as the 7.62 X 63.

Sometimes the titles are Miltary vs. Civilian other times its Euro vs. American.

5.56 Nato and .223 Rem are totally interchangeable. 

DG

QUOTE=Hooligan;3785987].223 and 5.56 are not interchangeable in all AR-15s. If it can shoot 5.56 then .223 can be used also but the reverse is not always true. Make sure you know what you are buying if you want to be able to shoot 5.56.

Around here the tactical weapons craze is beginning to slow down. Stores that were selling any EBR's they could get immediately for outrageous prices are now advertising "great deals and many in stock".

Of the two rifles you mention I would go with the AR simply because you can easily build different rifles for different purposes from the one receiver.[/QUOTE]


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

We aren't talking about metric designations of US cartridges. We are talking about two different cartridges, 5.56 and .223. Do a bit of research. Would you believe SAAMI?...

"Almost a quarter of a century ago, SAAMI recognized potential problems with shooters assuming that the 5.56mm cartridge was identical to the commercially available .223 Remington round. Here is their 31 January 1979 release, with some minor errors corrected:

With the appearance of full metal jacket military 5.56 ammunition on the commercial Market, it has come to the attention of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) that the use of military 5.56mm ammunition in sporting rifles chambered for Caliber .223 Remington cartridges can lead to higher-than-normal chamber pressures and possible hazards for the firearm, its user and bystanders.

Tests have confirmed that chamber pressures in a sporting rifle may be significantly higher in the same gun when using military 5.56mm ammunition rather than commercially loaded Caliber .223 Remington cartridges, according to SAAMI.

SAAMI points out that chambers for military rifles have a different throat configuration than chambers for sporting firearms which, together with the full metal jacket of the military projectile, may account for the higher pressures which result when military ammunition is fired in a sporting chamber.

SAAMI recommends that a firearm be fired only with the cartridge for which it is specifically chambered by the manufacturer."

There is plenty more info available if you care to educate yourself. My Rock River has a Wylde chamber to handle both rounds plus match ammo.


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## Murray in ME (May 10, 2002)

denaliguide said:


> they are exactly the same cartridge with differing designations as is 7.62 Nato vs. .308 Winchester.
> 
> 5.56 Nato and .223 Rem are totally interchangeable.
> 
> DG


Nope. Ed Norman and Hooligan are right. The two are often interchangable but not always.


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## h8mtv (Apr 26, 2009)

Yup, just check out ammo oracle. A great source.


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## denaliguide (Aug 30, 2008)

since I was never on an AR platform since the miltary, it does not apply to me, nor, should it apply to anyone else, unless they GOTTA have an AR.

Seems to me, that knocks out AR platforms from consideration.

Think about it. Do you want a jam or head seperation cause you used a .223 Rem in your AR, or AR spec based platform.

I think you guys are truly non-versatile, and truly mis-informing people if your telling them to get an AR Platform when it cannot use interchangeable ammo. Would you specifically choose an ammo sensitive weapon?

Dont think so.

DG



Ed Norman said:


> We aren't talking about metric designations of US cartridges. We are talking about two different cartridges, 5.56 and .223. Do a bit of research. Would you believe SAAMI?...
> 
> "Almost a quarter of a century ago, SAAMI recognized potential problems with shooters assuming that the 5.56mm cartridge was identical to the commercially available .223 Remington round. Here is their 31 January 1979 release, with some minor errors corrected:
> 
> ...


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Try to follow along. The problems can occur when you use 5.56 ammo in a 223 rifle. That means it could be an H&R single shot, a bolt gun, a custom target rifle... any 223. 

Interchangeable ammo works in many calibers. If it doesn't work for some reason, it isn't interchangeable. You can't load modern high pressure 45-70 ammo in an original Rolling Block 45-70, so that ammo is not interchangeable. And in this case they are warning you not to use 5.56 FMJ military ammo in sporting 223 rifles.


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

Ed Norman said:


> You can't load modern high pressure 45-70 ammo in an original Rolling Block 45-70,


that'll get somebody hurt ED... a rollin block chambered in 45/70 WILL let a hot loaded round load into it. 

It won't shoot it safely and warnings abound about it but it can be done albeit with disastrous results!


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

denaliguide said:


> since I was never on an AR platform since the miltary, it does not apply to me, nor, should it apply to anyone else, unless they GOTTA have an AR.
> 
> Seems to me, that knocks out AR platforms from consideration.
> 
> ...


Again, Ed's right, get an AR with a 5.56 chamber and there are no issues. 

I fire .223 in my 5.56 chambered Colt LE6920 all the time. I also reload 5.56 pressure ammo in military brass. In fact, it's a little hard to find true 5.56 Ammo these days, probably about 98% available is .223. 

The difference between a 5.56 and a .223 chamber is the amount of freebore in the chamber, the 5.56 has a longer "leade" to allow for the higher pressure of the 5.56mm cartridge. Firing 5.56 ammo in a .223 chamber can cause an unsafe condition. This longer leade also causes some loss in accuracy as the bullet has a longer "jump" to the rifling. Based on the design purpose of a 5.56 rifle, this loss isn't a big deal.

While the 5.56 mm and .223 cartridges are very similar, they are not identical. The external dimensions are identical, the internal dimensions are not. Military cases are made from thicker brass than commercial cases, which reduces the powder capacity, and the NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. 

*223 Remington ammunition can be safely fired in a 5.56 mm chambered gun*, but the reverse can be an unsafe combination. The added pressure created by 5.56 mm ammo in the .223 chamber will frequently cause over-pressure problems such as difficult extraction, flowing brass, or popped primers, but in extreme cases, could damage or destroy the rifle.

There are a couple chamberings available that are a cross between a 5.56 and .223 with the idea of improving accuracy such as the "Wylde" chamber. 

Chuck


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

tallpaul said:


> that'll get somebody hurt ED... a rollin block chambered in 45/70 WILL let a hot loaded round load into it.
> 
> It won't shoot it safely and warnings abound about it but it can be done albeit with disastrous results!


Yep, that's why I said the two loadings aren't interchangeable. What would I do without the old Trapdoor and Rolling Block? They sometimes group 45-70 loads into 3 pressure categories instead of 2, and I load for all three. I use bullet type to help keep them straight. The 400 grain swaged paper patch loads can go in any of them, the 350 gr JHP goes in the strongest actions, etc.


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## denaliguide (Aug 30, 2008)

No problem nor confusion exists concering 7.62mm X 39 ammo or chamberings.

Do you really think I'd let my kids or friends outfit with AR's or 5.56?

Back in the day when we set up for conflict, after we got out of the miltary, we used Mini-14's, not AR's. Now that SK's are available as is 7.62 X 39 Ammo, chrome bores, and plenty of accessories, there is little or no chance that anyone I know will ever equip with AR's. The concept of Simple is Better wins here. There are several surprises engineered into the 7.62 X 39 Platfrom, make it quite comparable to the 5.56 and all its loadings and platforms.

Get other than an AR and there are no issues. Get a 7.62 X 39 and there are NO issues.

To make this issue this complex for people looking for a basic weapon is wrong.

My days worrying about this kinda thing is about done. I set up in the early 70's and everything I set up has worked. Making anything more complex is not on my menu. Worrying about how much freebore any weapon has is not part of the SIMPLICITY EQUATION. Scraping up the cash to buy an AR is simply foolish.

Have your fun with your AR's, its a waste of time.

DG



Chuck R. said:


> Again, Ed's right, get an AR with a 5.56 chamber and there are no issues.
> 
> I fire .223 in my 5.56 chambered Colt LE6920 all the time. I also reload 5.56 pressure ammo in military brass. In fact, it's a little hard to find true 5.56 Ammo these days, probably about 98% available is .223.
> 
> ...


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

denaliguide said:


> they are exactly the same cartridge with differing designations as is 7.62 Nato vs. .308 Winchester....


One difference between 7.62 NATO and civilian .308 is the type of primer used in the cartridge. The 7.62 NATO uses a heavier cased primer and the .308 uses a thinner cased, more sensitive primer. The use of modern .308 rounds in my M1A (M14) can result in "slam-fire." Slam-fire is the unintended firing of a round by the floating firing pin. This can happen immediately upon reloading the next round...without pulling the trigger. Slam fire can also occur in M1 Garands using modern (ie, sensitive) .30-06 rounds. I use nothing but military rounds in my M1A and M1 Garand.


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

denaliguide said:


> No problem nor confusion exists concering 7.62mm X 39 ammo or chamberings.
> 
> Do you really think I'd let my kids or friends outfit with AR's or 5.56?
> 
> ...


DG,

Youâre probably the only person that finds this âcomplexâ, so Iâll break in down for you.

*Standard AR has a 5.56 chamber; it can shoot either .223 or 5.56.*

There done.

A properly built AR will run circles around an SKS in; accuracy, ergonomics, effective range, weight, and modularity.

Swap out the upper and you have choices of multiple calibers or you can go from CQB to a DMR role by simply swapping out your optic. Add a .22 adapter, and you have cheap practice or a small game caliber. The basic M4 configuration starts out at less than 6 lbs, I can add optics, light, VFG and a loaded 30 round mag and still weigh less than a standard SKS. The relatively light recoil and adjustable stock make it easy to train new shooters or adapt to shooters of smaller stature. 

If thatâs not enough, it has the largest spare parts/accessories network of probably any rifle on the planet. 

The AR has been adopted by numerous militaries and a lot of law-enforcement agencies, I donât even think thereâs a standing army still using the SKS. 

Keep your SKS and be happy, but to call the AR a âwaste of timeâ because you canât comprehend a 5.56 chamber is laughable.

Chuck


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## Hooligan (Jul 18, 2007)

denaliguide said:


> Please dont share that kind of mis-information, for that are people reading this who actually might think you know what your talking about.



That is some very good advice that maybe you should heed yourself.

My comments were 100% accurate as as been verified by a few knowledgable posters in this thread.

I can recommend a couple sources if you want to educate yourself on weapons and cartridges for those weapons.

It sounds like you could stand to educate yourself a bit.


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Regardless of what platform you like...the 7.62x39 is superior to a 5.56...


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

FB.Ironworker said:


> I'm wondering if i wait till i see if this oboma thing will blow over or if it's going to be impossible to buy tactical rifles. as far as ammo, there are still reasonably prices. i own a ak-74 which fires the 5.45x39 and that ammo is hard to find, not to mention 308 ammo.


You are'nt looking in the right places-5.45x39 is cheap...225.00 for 2080 rds,yes it's corrosive combloc,but cheaper than 5.56 or 7.62x39...
.308 is definately expensive...reload..just linked 2000 for next wknd..


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

Rose_Thorn said:


> im stuck with the choice of purchasing a rifle im down to the .556 AR-15 or the .556 FN F2000 any advice?? its for hunting and home defense


And this poor poster just wanted our answers, but once again everyone went completely overboard. 

Of those two choices, I would pick the AR-15.

Wasn't that simple?


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## zant (Dec 1, 2005)

Touche...I agree..


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## GREENCOUNTYPETE (Jul 25, 2006)

Madsaw said:


> Pete are you going to woodford this weekend? It sure will be a muddy mess there.
> Bob


no whats woodford (pm me if you like to explain there)
well since were suggesting thing other than the 2 originaly given as what he had stated as having it narrowed down to , yes the sks is very functional and has a decent safty , somtimes need the spring replaced it it does not stay in possion , the norinco's didn't have the same gas bock as the yugo's i prefer the norico desing for simplicity they also seem to be well put together with a decent finish as far as old commi guns go , i would deffinitly replace the stock right away there are many nice synthetic options out there.

ak's while they rin like an old international pick up LOOOSE but unstoppable 
i don't care for the cumbersom safty lever 

the cetme is a nice gun mid range between the AR and SKS in price with a nice design and safty in a convinient location like the AR fire 7.62X51 nato good round , would make a nice deer gun with a scope it is a licensed copy of an hk design 

but for good american stand bys Ruger mini 14 excelent choice it is realy a scaled down version of the M1A for .223
remintion makes a 716 pump takes ar/m16 mags but is a pump carbine 
springfield makes several variants of the M1A great rifles


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

Woodford is where they held a Fur trader rendezous over teh weekend. They had great weather for it.


Back in 91 I bought a SKS new. Its a Norinco. I never had no problems with it and had tons of fun with it. I am thinking of changing a few things on it in the near future.
Bob


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## Murray in ME (May 10, 2002)

Ed Norman said:


> And this poor poster just wanted our answers, but once again everyone went completely overboard.
> 
> Of those two choices, I would pick the AR-15.
> 
> Wasn't that simple?



You're right Ed. Of the two, I'd also pick the AR. For a few reasons. The basic platform is cheaper. The AR is easily accesorised to make it exactly what you want. The AR is easy to convert to different chamberings and barrel lengths/configurations (including .22lr for cheap practice).


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

GREENCOUNTYPETE said:


> it is a licensed copy of an hk design


Don't know much about the cetme do you ?

The cetme predates the HK and in reality was the design basis for the HK 

basically there is no way in hell that the cetme is a licensed copy of the HK- sounds like some gunshow dealer was selling BS and ya bought it  

There are several clones of the HK out. The PTR 91 being one of the best of the bunch. They are made on HK machinery/dies and from surplus parts

The only "licensed" copies I know of were made down in brazil on HK machinery and some were imported by springfield armoury way back when.


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## catahoula (Dec 14, 2005)

tallpaul said:


> Don't know much about the cetme do you ?
> 
> The cetme predates the HK and in reality was the design basis for the HK
> 
> ...


 To sort of add to that, the HK isn't a gas operated rifle. Since owning a NIB HK-91 isn't an option and used ones are really expensive, the PTR 91 is an affordable alternative. The HK platform is stone reliable and has been used world wide for a long time. The only down side is it's heavy, it weighs about 13 pounds before glass, bi-pods, lights, coffee grinders, and toaster ovens. As a plus the weight does help absorb recoil. The .308 can be used on larger game, has a good range and will shoot through buildings...that sounded strange.


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## denaliguide (Aug 30, 2008)

and to reflect correctly, the prob is when you use high pressure military rounds in civilian arms. That is clear.

The most efficient matrix of cost, ammo, accessories, dependability and shootability lead me to my choice of SKS for the casual but serious use.

As to whether any standing army uses it, interests me less than what the HOME GUARD uses for reasons that are obvious on this forum. Criteria for accuracy here, is not mil match, or I'd use my Ljungman AG-42 if that was the case.

Since I have used SK's under harsh conditions, and find no disqualifying flaw, nor any controversy about ammo, IMO, local guys with local budgets, and local expectations are as well off with SKS's for the whole family rather than AN AR, or so.

I understand your points. However, at a grassroots level for getting prepped up, with arms, I think the SK is a GOOD choice, not the supreme in any particular area, but so good it cannot be ignored as THE choice, IMO.

Thanks for your great knowledge and info. My conclusions are above.

DG




Hooligan said:


> That is some very good advice that maybe you should heed yourself.
> 
> My comments were 100% accurate as as been verified by a few knowledgable posters in this thread.
> 
> ...


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## denaliguide (Aug 30, 2008)

well I am not dead certain that the 7.62 X 39 is totally superior but its clear that I like it for a number of reasons. 

Certainly a better whitetail/black bear cartridges. The Sierra Ballistic Tip 125 gr [ grn tip] would give you a BC .366 which makes it a 200+ yd gun.

7.62 X 39 also is credible for a lung shot on moose. This is not a gun I'd take up against bad animals, altho the 7.62 X 54, huge as it is, would work.

Maintenance-wise given the lack of sophistication that the troops who carry it often had, I'd say its a winner in the ruggedness department, including chrome bores as standard in most. The chrome bores reflect the likelihood your gonna shoot corrosive ammo. True corrosive ammo is bad, but it will LAST FOREVER, so when you cut open that can of ammo from your stash, YOU KNOW IT WILL FIRE.

Lastly if you have even gotten any Spanish '95 Mausers, in 7 X 57, and noticed that many of them have dark bores, which are a result of attempts to neutralize the corrosive residue by urinating into the bores. That was a field expedient.
Then washing it out with hot water was the next echelon of care. The salt in the urine supposidly washed away and reduced the corrosive residue.
Those guys building the SK and AK took note and added chrome bores, treating corrosive ammo as a fact of life.

Fitted with an internal Chi-Com 20 rd mag, and strippers its as fast a loader as any. Its not my choice for a long range xtra accurate piece like my 6.5 X 55 Swed Mausers are.

Like the US Govt when they decided that a soldier with 200 rds of 5.56 was more "survivable" than one with 100 rds of 7.62, I feel that a family grouping with 2 or 3 SK's are a lot more survivable than the same family with 1 AR.

No one is going to argue the technical merits, dirty, scared, and in danger.
Better to have someone other around to back you up, and create cross-fire, or pull the the old Ein-Satz Kommando move. SKS in their Chi-Com Type 56
Variant[ generally the most common & cheapest ] also fit those of smaller stature easily, and since we are talking family groupings here, that is a PLUS.

Reassuring to know that when your opponent enters the "beaten zone" that they will find themselves in a " L " crossfire, with perhaps a third postion pre-set to seal the door shut. Thats why I think 2 or 3 SKS will beat 1 AR hands down every time.

Rotate your ammo.

DG



zant said:


> Regardless of what platform you like...the 7.62x39 is superior to a 5.56...


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## Chuck R. (Apr 24, 2008)

Rose_Thorn said:


> im stuck with the choice of purchasing a rifle im down to the .556 AR-15 or the .556 FN F2000 any advice?? its for hunting and home defense



I just thought of one more reason to choose the AR over the FN.

I took another carbine class yesterday and put 416 rounds through my AR in a little under 8 hours of shooting. This was my 4th Carbine class in addition to 26 years in the Army with the M16 âfamilyâ. Students ran the gamut from military, law enforcement, retired military and regular gun enthusiasts. Ranges varied from under 7 yards to a little over 100, stationary positions to shooting on the move and use of cover. The weapons consisted of 12 ARs (11 M4s, 1 Rifle), 2 AKs and 1 FN P90 (5.7X28). 

All the rifles ran fine, but one Eotech and one Aimpoint went down and those shooters went to irons. 

What got me, and is the reason for this post was how much of the instruction was really geared towards the ergonomics and firing characteristics of ARs. Everything from short-range POI VS POA to immediate action drills was âARishâ. The instructor was very good, and knowledgeable, but it was obvious he was most familiar with the AR and was not in as good position to help the folks with âotherâ guns. He had no "tricks" to offer on TAC reloads etc. Some of the guys had been running ARs for years, and a few were guys that I usually shoot matches and train with. During down time we could compare notes, BS what we liked about our equipment and didn't. There was probably over 100 "collective" years worth of experience on ARs in that one class. 

I know there are instructors that teach predominately AK classes, but Iâve never heard of one that specializes in bullpup designs. The point being that with a common weapon, you can take advantage of a lot of techniques and procedures that others have learned, and they might not be as prevalent for a less common weapon. Iâve shot the AUG, FN90 and the FN2000 and the drills and function are different. 

One other thing about weapon weight, it may or not make a difference in ârealâ life, but at the end of a day like yesterday after doing a chit-load of transitions from âlow readyâ to firing, roll drills, multiple engagements, and getting in and out of firing positions; lighter is better. 

Chuck


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## Bearman405 (Jan 30, 2009)

Trained on the M14, M16 & the 1911................

Anybody short of cash can put together a cheap kit by buying the SKS and the Mosin-Nagant. Both are cheap to buy and the ammo is cheap as well.

For the price of one AR, you can have three or four SKSs and several Ts rounds of ammo. Same goes for the Mosin-Nagant over the M14.............

I still keep my 1911 over any other cals.............:bouncy:


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## tallpaul (Sep 5, 2004)

Bearman405 said:


> For the price of one AR, you can have three or four SKSs and several Ts rounds of ammo. Same goes for the Mosin-Nagant over the M14.............



Your a tad outdated on pricing sir...
sks ammo is about 200 a thousand on the cheap now adays and SKS are 250 and up...


decent ARs start about 800 or so...

maybe 2 sks and one thousand rounds... still viable but not the days of 70.00 sks and cases of 7.62 x39


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