# Personal changes due to government actions



## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

When Obama was elected,
1) I had 4 free channels on TV
2) the interest rate on my savings was at least 5%
3) I had good medical insurance and had a good doctor
4) my overall tax rate was 21% (sales tax, state and fed income tax, misc gov't fees, property tax)
5) the murder rate in my area was 1 per 100,000

Now I have
1) one TV channel and it's NBC 
2) the interest rate on my savings is under 1%
3) I have mediocre insurance that costs twice as much and have a bad doctor
4) my over all tax rate is 27% ( several school bonds, increased sales and income tax, new fees) 
5) the murder rate is 4 per 100,000

The only good thing I can think that has happened is that we are not militarily as involved in Iraq- at least as far as I can trust the government's information.

Oh, and one of the previous all Spanish speaking utility line tree trimming crews has learned English, so when they blocked me into my driveway this year, I could ask how long they would be. Turns out they're pretty nice guys.

And I like my new neighbor.

But over all, it's fairly depressing,.


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## DAVID In Wisconsin (Dec 3, 2002)

Welcome to socialism. It only gets worse.


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

Just stop bragging already!!LOL You were bragging, right!

Wade


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## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

where I want to said:


> When Obama was elected,
> 1) I had 4 free channels on TV
> 2) the interest rate on my savings was at least 5%
> 3) I had good medical insurance and had a good doctor
> ...


I have nineteen free channels for my tv.
The stock market has more than doubled and my anuity is doing just great.
My medicare premium is very good.
I have the same doctors I always had.
My property taxes have been held down mainly due to the taxes the county gets from the wind generators.
My farm land has more than doubled in value.
The murder rate around here has always been just about zero.
This administration has done very well for me.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

wwubben said:


> I have nineteen free channels for my tv.
> The stock market has more than doubled and my anuity is doing just great.
> My medicare premium is very good.
> I have the same doctors I always had.
> ...


Six years ago I had Dish network and dial up internet. Today I have high speed fiber optic cable to my living room wall providing me with high speed internet, phone and cable for the same price as before. Thank you stimulus money.

My insurance is better and less expensive for me. Thanks ACA.

Six years ago I watched the stock market lose half its value. On good advice I got out before the worst hit. On better advice I got back in and have made up my losses and more than doubled my worth.

I don't remember the last murder in our county.

Maybe a tale of two Americas?


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/27/business/the-typical-household-now-worth-a-third-less.html?_r=1

IN 2003 inflation adjusted net worth for the typical household was $87,992.
IN 2013 - 10 years later, it was $56,335 - a 36% decline.

"The reasons for these declines are complex and controversial, but one point seems clear:
When only a few people are winning and more than half the population is losing, surely something is amiss".


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## plowjockey (Aug 18, 2008)

Obamacare.

We have to pay more up front (full deductible), but 22yo DS who can't find any job that pays medical benefits, get to stay on our policy to age 26.

Our income has been going up every year, as are taxes and the cost of everything.

I can imagine things much worse, than they are.


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## Belfrybat (Feb 21, 2003)

Things for me have pretty much stayed the same. My Mutual Fund IRA lost about 1/3rd it's value in 2008, but it is now about 20% over it's highest before the crash. I just went on Medicare Advantage, and it's $20.00 a month more expensive than Christian Healthcare Ministries, but pays for more things, including medications. My house has gone up a bit in value, but not too much. Since it's paid for, that equates to free rent for 5 years. I wasn't working when the recession hit, so I wasn't affected there. House and auto insurance have stayed pretty much the same. Groceries are going up, but since I shop sales, I haven't really noticed personally. 

All in all life is good.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

wwubben said:


> I have nineteen free channels for my tv.
> The stock market has more than doubled and my anuity is doing just great.
> My medicare premium is very good.
> I have the same doctors I always had.
> ...


I suggest your taxes shoukd immediately be raised so that more can be directed to me. You obviously have not been distributed your equal share of the misery.


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## GrannyG (Mar 26, 2005)

Yes, we are all going down the tubes....I am carrying almost all my renters...they struggle, even working long hours.....we help many with extra food when we know they are not making ends meet....we are all in this together....and how many more thousands of little mouths are we now going to have to be taxed on to feed....we have a president who cannot make decisions.....we have a congress that will not act...we are all like fish floundering on the bank.....and then we have to pay for them to have a vacation !

and I can't even get decent TV reception....LOL....still using the old antenna and a box....no cable...


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2014)




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## MushCreek (Jan 7, 2008)

Our lives have undergone some drastic changes, but not really due to the actions/inactions of the government.

We essentially left the city, and have been building a homestead in a rural area. We had planned to do this anyway, so the government doesn't really get the credit.

I suppose the biggest changes due to the government are that I have become more conservative, stronger in my religious faith, and much better prepared to survive whatever natural or man-made disasters come our way. Why is this the government's fault? I have become increasingly pessimistic about the future of this once-great nation. The seeds of our decline go way back before Obama, though. He and his cronies have accelerated the process more than I thought possible.

One thing I can pin on Obama and the ACA is that my wife's work in health care has become increasing precarious as hospitals keep cutting back, and we had a hard time finding doctors in our new community.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

There's alot I can say but these days it just isn't safe to speak freely anymore. That, more than anything else pretty much sums it up.


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## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

where I want to said:


> I suggest your taxes shoukd immediately be raised so that more can be directed to me. You obviously have not been distributed your equal share of the misery.


I didn't realize you wanted to live off the government teat.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

wwubben said:


> I didn't realize you wanted to live off the government teat.


You are not the government, although you make that sound appealing. When are you sending me my first check?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

where I want to said:


> You are not the government, although you make that sound appealing. When are you sending me my first check?


Everyone is the government. That is a big part of our problems. Blaming it on the government when we put up the candidates, vote them into office and then complain when they do things we don't like.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

painterswife said:


> Everyone is the government. That is a big part of our problems. Blaming it on the government when we put up the candidates, vote them into office and then complain when they do things we don't like.


"We" don't put up the candidates. Candidate are chosen for us by party affiliates, and corporate backers. The biggest fallacy is that we choose our representatives. They are chosen for us by a political elite, and we get to choose from a group of pre-chosen options. Everyone is not the government.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Twobottom said:


> "We" don't put up the candidates. Candidate are chosen for us by party affiliates, and corporate backers. The biggest fallacy is that we choose our representatives. They are chosen for us by a political elite, and we get to choose from a group of pre-chosen options. Everyone is not the government.


Pass the blame again. 

"They did it, I did not have any input". It was the corporate backers"

We hear this none stop litany of this is the greatest country in the word because of our system of government and then I hear the same people complaining that they have no input in who the government is. More hooha from people who will not get off their duffs and be the change they want.

Do something instead of complaining and them maybe others might listen. Other than that it is all meaningless belly aching.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

painterswife said:


> Pass the blame again.
> 
> "They did it, I did not have any input". It was the corporate backers"
> 
> ...


Well if you don't know how the government and the world works then I can understand why it all looks so easy to you. If you want to believe that you are choosing your government go right ahead. Whatever makes you feel better about things, I guess. Personally, I don't like to live in denial about the reality of the world I live in.


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## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

where I want to said:


> You are not the government, although you make that sound appealing. When are you sending me my first check?


You wanted me to pay more taxes.Taxes are paid to the government.You can only receive my tax payment through the government teat.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

wwubben said:


> You wanted me to pay more taxes.Taxes are paid to the government.You can only receive my tax payment through the government teat.


Yup.Government can't give you anything that it hasn't taken from someone else.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Twobottom said:


> Well if you don't know how the government and the world works then I can understand why it all looks so easy to you. If you want to believe that you are choosing your government go right ahead. Whatever makes you feel better about things, I guess. Personally, I don't like to live in denial about the reality of the world I live in.


If you are not choosing your government then it is your own fault. That is the whole point. The mechanisms for change are there but most would rather just complain instead of doing. Talk about living in denial.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

painterswife said:


> If you are not choosing your government then it is your own fault. That is the whole point. The mechanisms for change are there but most would rather just complain instead of doing. Talk about living in denial.


Are you suggesting that we pick up arms and attempt to overthrow the government? 

If the candidates that run our government are not chosen by us, then how do you propose to make these changes?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Twobottom said:


> Are you suggesting that we pick up arms and attempt to overthrow the government?
> 
> If the candidates that run our government are not chosen by us, then how do you propose to make these changes?


So you complain but you have no clue how the government works? You don't know how to make those changes you want? You need to ask me?


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

When was the last time that a politician without an L, D or and R behind his name was on a major ballot? Much less won a high office?
Even the guys, few there are that claim to be an I toe the line with either the D or the R party. 

For US the people to truly choose there would have to be a general election with an open ballot to decide who ran for office.

Then a general election from those who had the most votes on that ballot. 
Or more general ballots if there were too many choices, in order to narrow it down to the peoples true choice for the higher offices.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

painterswife said:


> So you complain but you have no clue how the government works? You don't know how to make those changes you want? You need to ask me?


No,I know how it works. You don't. Yet you continue to tell us that we should make the changes. So tell me your ideas. How do you propose that we the people change a government that is not chosen by the people?

I want to hear what you think you know. My guess is you will not tell us your ideas, because as we all have pretty much guessed by now, you have no ideas.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MJsLady said:


> When was the last time that a politician without an L, D or and R behind his name was on a major ballot? Much less won a high office?
> Even the guys, few there are that claim to be an I toe the line with either the D or the R party.
> 
> For US the people to truly choose there would have to be a general election with an open ballot to decide who ran for office.
> ...


I guess that means the US is not that great after all if the system of Government does not elect who the people want. I guess that means the constitution is not worth much either.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Twobottom said:


> No,I know how it works. You don't. Yet you continue to tell us that we should make the changes. So tell me your ideas. How do you propose that we the people change a government that is not chosen by the people?
> 
> I want to hear what you think you know. My guess is you will not tell us our ideas, because as we all have pretty much guessed by now, you have no ideas.


Do I need ideas? You are the one complaining. Maybe my ideas are the reason you are complaining you don't get to choose your own government.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

MJsLady said:


> When was the last time that a politician without an L, D or and R behind his name was on a major ballot? Much less won a high office?
> Even the guys, few there are that claim to be an I toe the line with either the D or the R party.
> 
> For US the people to truly choose there would have to be a general election with an open ballot to decide who ran for office.
> ...


Exactly. Refreshing to hear from someone who actually understands the system.

Few know that almost 200 people ran for president in 2012. The general public has no knowledge of them, we were not able to even hear their ideas, they were not allowed to participate in the debates, and about 95% of them were not even allowed on the ballot. So, on the off chance that you even heard of one of them and wanted to vote for them you were not permitted to.

There are 40 official political parties in the US. Each election they put up at least one candidate. Most will get zero media time, zero chance to debate, and will not be permitted on the ballot. Roughly 3 times as many independent candidates will be running at any given time.

Aside from the parties, contributions play an equally big role in who has a fighting chance in any race. And that means corporate, and special interest backing. Without that you are nobody. The idea that we have the opportunity to vote someone in who isn't pre-chosen is stunningly naive.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

MJsLady said:


> When was the last time that a politician without an L, D or and R behind his name was on a major ballot? Much less won a high office?
> Even the guys, few there are that claim to be an I toe the line with either the D or the R party.
> 
> For US the people to truly choose there would have to be a general election with an open ballot to decide who ran for office.
> ...


2012.http://www.co.eau-claire.wi.us/CountyDepartments/CountyClerk/docs/ballot68.pdf The fact that they can't gain support or votes is not the fault of the system, but the people utilizing the system. Electoral change seldom happens from the top down. Change will come from local elections and new people with new ideas building a base. Want to change the system instead of just whining about it- run for local office.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

> There are 40 official political parties in the US. Each election they put up at least one candidate. Most will get zero media time, zero chance to debate, and will not be permitted on the ballot. Roughly 3 times as many independent candidates will be running at any given time.



Not to mention that most media pundits either support the R or D party in their "reporting".
I remember a gal running here. She was asked to be on Glen Beck's radio show. That was the day I lost respect for him. When he asked her about 9-11 her reply was, there are still a lot of unanswered questions and he automatically labelled her a "911 truther" and it was all down hill from there. Her ideas were valid and would have done much to help the country but since she didn't swallow that we have all the answers about 911, he with his mega media clout destroyed her. 

I imagine the same happens to others every election cycle. Even GB toes a conventional government line.

Who is going to change the system when it supports the status quo? It too a revolution to do it the last time.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

painterswife said:


> Do I need ideas? You are the one complaining. Maybe my ideas are the reason you are complaining you don't get to choose your own government.


How silly. Like I said, you have no ideas and nothing of substance to back your assertions. 

You're just trolling.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Twobottom said:


> The idea that we have the opportunity to vote someone in who isn't pre-chosen is stunningly naive.


The reason you can't vote for someone ( at this moment in time) that is not prechosen is your own fault. You need to be working in the trenches to change things instead of complaining about them.

Vote with your dollars, or take away the dollars that are allowing those people to get to where they are chosen. Instead of saying it is impossible do something. Other countries do it every day.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Twobottom said:


> How silly. Like I said, you have no ideas and nothing of substance to back your assertions.
> 
> You're just trolling.


I have a different opinion so I am just trolling. Where are your great ideas? Instead of doing the work you just say it is not possible. That is one great idea.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

mmoetc said:


> 2012.http://www.co.eau-claire.wi.us/CountyDepartments/CountyClerk/docs/ballot68.pdf The fact that they can't gain support or votes is not the fault of the system, ...


Sure it is. Check the Commission on Presidential Debates. They decide who gets invited to debate. Who are they? A committee of republican and democrat party representatives.

The last time a candidate who was not a member of the R or D parties had a reasonable chance was Ross Perot. Since then they have changed the rules to make sure that never happens again. Hence, the formation of the commission, amongst other things.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

I posted a question a while back about whether people would sign a nominating petition for someone of another party. The predominant response was that they wouldn't. If people aren't even willing to allow others access to the ballot is it the media or major party's fault that they get shut out. Or is it the very people who complain about limited choices?


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

painterswife said:


> I have a different opinion so I am just trolling. Where are your great ideas? Instead of doing the work you just say it is not possible. That is one great idea.


You don't have an opinion...your just talking around in circles to avoid delving into the issue. I don't really want to argue with you personally, it s waste of time.If you want to discuss the issue of our lack of representation in a meaningful way, I'm all ears.

It seems like you want to "oppose" without discussing.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Ross Perot was a good guy too. Had 1 little idea I could not get behind or he would have had my vote! 

(He wanted to remove children from poor families and put them in homes of wealth. Being a poor family is not a disease and I would fight to the death for my kids!)


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Twobottom said:


> Sure it is. Check the Commission on Presidential Debates. They decide who gets invited to debate. Who are they? A committee of republican and democrat party representatives.
> 
> The last time a candidate who was not a member of the R or D parties had a reasonable chance was Ross Perot. Since then they have changed the rules to make sure that never happens again. Hence, the formation of the commission, amongst other things.


If you can't get an invite to the party the cool kids are holding you have a couple of choices. You can sit in your room and whine or throw your own party. What local office are you running for and how are you working to change the system you hate so much. I'd suggest you throw a party of your own.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> If you can't get an invite to the party the cool kids are holding you have a couple of choices. You can sit in your room and whine or throw your own party. What local office are you running for and how are you working to change the system you hate so much. I'd suggest you throw a party of your own.


That would be work. Complaining is much easier.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

mmoetc said:


> ..... If people aren't even willing to allow others access to the ballot is it the media or major party's fault that they get shut out. ...


Ah....if the major parties are conspiring to monopolize the debate process...then yeah, of course it's their fault.

If the media is giving time to only two parties and deliberately ignoring all the others...then yeah, its their fault too.

I do blame people for remaining ignorant to some extent but the problem stems from the fact that they believe in the media and they trust what they are being told. Wouldn't it be great of the people all woke up and started backing candidate that weren't corporate-media backed? Sure but that is not going to happen. If there is going to be any chance of the people actually choosing their representatives, then the whole process needs to change.

As MJ lady suggested in her post, we'd need a different electoral system.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Yep you can through your own part, IF you have the money. 
Other wise no one knows there is a party.
The MSM will not cover anything that can not generate income. This includes Fox.
No media attention= no way to get your message out= a losing battle.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

mmoetc said:


> If you can't get an invite to the party the cool kids are holding you have a couple of choices. You can sit in your room and whine or throw your own party. What local office are you running for and how are you working to change the system you hate so much. I'd suggest you throw a party of your own.


What makes you think I'm not? I am very politically active. The fact remains, that our system right now does not represent the people. The people do not choose their representatives, they are chosen for us.

Just telling me to 'change it' is not an intelligent suggestion.How do you propose to change the system so that the people are in charge of their government again, rather than the other way around?

You are the one's claiming it's all our fault, so tell me your ideas? So far I haven't heard any.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Twobottom said:


> What makes you think I'm not? I am very politically active. The fact remains, that our system right now does not represent the people. The people do not choose their representatives, they are chosen for us.
> 
> Just telling me to 'change it' is not an intelligent suggestion.How do you propose to change the system so that the people are in charge of their government again, rather than the other way around?
> 
> You are the one's claiming it's all our fault, so tell me your ideas? So far I haven't heard any.


Then you haven't been listening.

Getting involved locally. Building local grassroots organizations that work on issues important to you. Running for office yourself or identifying and supporting and working hard for candidates you choose. Show up at candidate forums. Call and write your local news outlets demanding time. Change isn't going to happen because we wish it to or because we have some miraculous national epiphany. It's going to happen, as it always has, because dedicated, passionate people make it happen. I'm no big fan of the Tea Party but in a short time they organized and got people elected. Their follow up has been lousy and they have allowed themselves in many cases to be co-opted by the Republican Party. 

It can be done. It can't be done overnight.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

wwubben said:


> You wanted me to pay more taxes.Taxes are paid to the government.You can only receive my tax payment through the government teat.


No, I want to cut out the middleman who is obviously favoring you over me. Government, as I mentioned to start, is my problem. All of the listed items were things government did to me without a by your leave. 
Since you say that you, on the other hand, have directly benefited by this government taking from me , and you believe in redistribution of wealth by the government who did the taking, and that government has failed in making me equal to you, the moral imperative is for you to make sure that I receive what would then create equality. 
Send me what you owe me. I'm only following the logical end you insist upon. 
If you want to stop insisting on the virtue of a government that takes from me to give to you, then I'm willing to forgive the debt you owe.


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

I've been reading the thread, I bring up the case of Ron Paul, during the debates the media refused to ask him questions, when he won Iowa the media claimed someone else won it, Then the republican party (I forget the state) had the republican sheriff beat up one of Ron Paul's workers and the republicans finally stole his delegates. He wasn't allowed to get in, it was rigged. As I pointed out before in the 2008 election what choice was there, Obama or Mc Cain, both controlled by big business. Look at how many bankers are in the cabinets of the last few administrations. One must understand we and most countries now are Fascist. Fascism is the merger of state and corporate powers. Look at how many department heads in Government are from big business. As to local elections, If I chose to run as an independent, the big parties would use up my meager campaign funds by dragging me into court challenging me every step of the way, if you don't play ball with them, your not allowed to run. Republican and Democrat are two sides of the same coin, there is only one real party in the U.S. they just look like they fight with each other, reminds me of World Federation Wrestling.

On to another topic, Most don't understand the new bank made by the BRICS nations, It is designed to by pass the dollar. Right now the dollar is the world reserve currency, that means nations pay their bills in U.S. Dollars, When they want oil they pay in dollars, when one nation buys widgets from another they use dollars to settle payment. 2/3 of all dollars are held over seas. But this is shortly to be no more, more and more countries are settling their debts in either their own currency or the Yuan. When this transition is complete all those dollars will come home to roost, Lets talk inflation. More and more the U.S. is being shut out, we have bullied others too long and they are sick of it. If you think times are bad now just wait. We will be looking at destruction, maybe not total destruction, but destruction of the U.S. dollar, they are talking around 80% devaluation.


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## bigjon (Oct 2, 2013)

same insurance/same doctors/lots of overtime at work/garden producing like crazy/my taxes went down/value of my farm land went up/haven't murdered anybody today......:banana:


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

:huh:


BlackFeather said:


> I've been reading the thread, I bring up the case of Ron Paul, during the debates the media refused to ask him questions, when he won Iowa the media claimed someone else won it, Then the republican party (I forget the state) had the republican sheriff beat up one of Ron Paul's workers and the republicans finally stole his delegates. He wasn't allowed to get in, it was rigged. As I pointed out before in the 2008 election what choice was there, Obama or Mc Cain, both controlled by big business. Look at how many bankers are in the cabinets of the last few administrations. One must understand we and most countries now are Fascist. Fascism is the merger of state and corporate powers. Look at how many department heads in Government are from big business. As to local elections, If I chose to run as an independent, the big parties would use up my meager campaign funds by dragging me into court challenging me every step of the way, if you don't play ball with them, your not allowed to run. Republican and Democrat are two sides of the same coin, there is only one real party in the U.S. they just look like they fight with each other, reminds me of World Federation Wrestling.
> 
> On to another topic, Most don't understand the new bank made by the BRICS nations, It is designed to by pass the dollar. Right now the dollar is the world reserve currency, that means nations pay their bills in U.S. Dollars, When they want oil they pay in dollars, when one nation buys widgets from another they use dollars to settle payment. 2/3 of all dollars are held over seas. But this is shortly to be no more, more and more countries are settling their debts in either their own currency or the Yuan. When this transition is complete all those dollars will come home to roost, Lets talk inflation. More and more the U.S. is being shut out, we have bullied others too long and they are sick of it. If you think times are bad now just wait. We will be looking at destruction, maybe not total destruction, but destruction of the U.S. dollar, they are talking around 80% devaluation.


Excellent post. Summed up our situation perfectly.:clap::goodjob:


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

BlackFeather said:


> I've been reading the thread, I bring up the case of Ron Paul, during the debates the media refused to ask him questions, when he won Iowa the media claimed someone else won it, Then the republican party (I forget the state) had the republican sheriff beat up one of Ron Paul's workers and the republicans finally stole his delegates. He wasn't allowed to get in, it was rigged. As I pointed out before in the 2008 election what choice was there, Obama or Mc Cain, both controlled by big business. Look at how many bankers are in the cabinets of the last few administrations. One must understand we and most countries now are Fascist. Fascism is the merger of state and corporate powers. Look at how many department heads in Government are from big business. As to local elections, If I chose to run as an independent, the big parties would use up my meager campaign funds by dragging me into court challenging me every step of the way, if you don't play ball with them, your not allowed to run. Republican and Democrat are two sides of the same coin, there is only one real party in the U.S. they just look like they fight with each other, reminds me of World Federation Wrestling.
> 
> On to another topic, Most don't understand the new bank made by the BRICS nations, It is designed to by pass the dollar. Right now the dollar is the world reserve currency, that means nations pay their bills in U.S. Dollars, When they want oil they pay in dollars, when one nation buys widgets from another they use dollars to settle payment. 2/3 of all dollars are held over seas. But this is shortly to be no more, more and more countries are settling their debts in either their own currency or the Yuan. When this transition is complete all those dollars will come home to roost, Lets talk inflation. More and more the U.S. is being shut out, we have bullied others too long and they are sick of it. If you think times are bad now just wait. We will be looking at destruction, maybe not total destruction, but destruction of the U.S. dollar, they are talking around 80% devaluation.


So how do you propose to change the system? You assert that you would face legal challenges if you ran. What would they be and can you give examples if tactics like this being used in local elections in your area. The legal requirements for running for most elected offices are pretty minimal. But as long as you complain about the system you're doing your part.


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

mmoetc said:


> So how do you propose to change the system? You assert that you would face legal challenges if you ran. What would they be and can you give examples if tactics like this being used in local elections in your area. The legal requirements for running for most elected offices are pretty minimal. But as long as you complain about the system you're doing your part.


It sounds like alot of people are trying to educate you about this problem. So far several posters have given you good information with good examples. But when they ask you to give information or ideas you don't give any.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Darntootin said:


> It sounds like alot of people are trying to educate you about this problem. So far several posters have given you good information with good examples. But when they ask you to give information or ideas you don't give any.


Really? I was asked for my answers and gave them. What I've heard from others is that the system is rigged, we're powerless, political parties are mean, yada, yada, yada. I've read no solutions. I've read why things can't be done, but nothing about what should or could be done. Please, give me an example of what you're personally going to do in this election cycle to change the way things are are being done.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

mmoetc said:


> Really? I was asked for my answers and gave them. What I've heard from others is that the system is rigged, we're powerless, political parties are mean, yada, yada, yada. I've read no solutions. I've read why things can't be done, but nothing about what should or could be done. Please, give me an example of what you're personally going to do in this election cycle to change the way things are are being done.


Several have explained how our system works and therefore why our representatives aren't chosen by the people. You have not refuted it or given any ideas about how this can be overcome. You just keep repeating "what are you doing to change it"....I'm doing lots of things but I ( and others ) have told you the way things are NOW. If that changes, great. Maybe something I do in the future might make a difference, I dare to dream. But for NOW our system is being run by elites. I thought Blackfeather's post and examples were spot on. Whether or not he is doing anything about it doesn't matter for the purposes of this discussion.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Twobottom said:


> Several have explained how our system works and therefore why our representatives aren't chosen by the people. You have not refuted it or given any ideas about how this can be overcome. You just keep repeating "what are you doing to change it"....I'm doing lots of things but I ( and others ) have told you the way things are NOW. If that changes, great. Maybe something I do in the future might make a difference, I dare to dream. But for NOW our system is being run by elites. I thought Blackfeather's post and examples were spot on. Whether or not he is doing anything about it doesn't matter for the purposes of this discussion.


I'll refer you back to post #45 for some of my solutions. I'll be actively working for a few locals seeking office this fall. Outcomes are not guaranteed but if they succeed we will have another foothold inside the system and can work to influence changes we like. I'm still waiting to hear one thing you would change let alone how you expect to facilitate that change. Tell me again how the system is so rigged you can't be heard. I don't think I've quite gotten your point, yet.


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

This thread is moving faster than I can keep up with it! I think this "constitutional convention" thing would be the way we can actually adjust our government back to working for the people.I understand it takes 34 stated to do something(EVEN have the convention ) and 38 to ratify anything and I've heard 34 have signed up so what happens now?
I think we have drifted far from the original intent of the constitution and really should get back to it.Seems the only thing you hear about is the second amendment,and there are real concerns there.Every one relates it to the ownership of guns and that wasn't even the true intent at all. The 2nd was put into play as a deterrent to "enemies both foreign and domestic"and the way it was written would give anyone the right to have a standing army with all the latest and greatest money could by.We hacked up the 2nd a long time ago.
People now relate the 2nd to gun rights which it wasn't really meant for as we address it.When it was written everyone had guns. That's how they go food. It was the same as owning a hammer or a shovel,it was just another tool! It was a forgone conclusion and had no reason to be addressed.Now we are trying to protect this "liberty" of gun ownership with the 2nd.Time has changed.
The thing that really needs changed is the people in office don't have anyone to answer to. They are not held accountable for their actions.To start with,we need to get rid of terms. Government service was never meant to be a career.All these people get elected to 2,4,6 year terms and start campaigning for the next election the day after getting elected. This service was meant to be just like serving in the military,not a life long job.I say "one and done".You got one chance at doing something meaningful for your country and you're out of here.You can get your name in lights of flame out,it's up to you but next term you won't be here!
The other part of this is that congress has no one to answer to. They make laws that apply to everyone in the country but congress.Does that make sense to any of you? Really! I mean think about it! The judicial branch is supposed to keep them in check.Well,how's that working out? Not so good I think. They even pick and choose what cases they will hear.And who has authority over them? Idontknow! Anybody?
Then we can talk about the congress that is seated an average of 32 hours PER MONTH!!!Do you even know anyone that can keep their job by only doing it for 32 hours a month?/
Yes we need a constitutional convention!


Wade


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

I am vetting candidates.

I am seeking out new faces with morals,knowledge,heart.

My voice matters.

I put on debates.

I have no money.

I laugh when people praise the food I provide at debates and meet and greets.

Homemade tortilla, filled with home grown shredded vegetables seasoned with what ever and homemade yogurt. Cookies, coffee and water. On platters that were gotten from the dump that once had a life as a microwave glass plate.

Pizza hm. Etc

Now this is a year round volunteer activity.

In getting this involved I am in the trenches.

Any one can do what I do. I do it because most of it is what I can do at home during a computer.

Who else wants to get involved. I will help any one. You got a phone, and a computer and time.....gas money helps later.

Where is your local meeting joint..might be a Coffee shop or maybe a firehall.

I want better government I will not pass the buck and I will not have some party boss tell me I can't. 

After working to fine good folks to run or approving a valid current elective person running for office I work to support. 

Pm me and I will help. It is not that I have all the answers it it's because I really believe we as Americans can do more.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> I am vetting candidates.
> 
> I am seeking out new faces with morals,knowledge,heart.
> 
> ...



The little things are what counts. keep up the good work.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

kasilofhome said:


> I am vetting candidates.
> 
> I am seeking out new faces with morals,knowledge,heart.
> 
> ...


We may disagree on a lot, but on this stand with you. I can't move a mountain all at once by myself, but I can start moving one rock at a time.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

where I want to said:


> Now I have
> 1) one TV channel and it's NBC
> 2) the interest rate on my savings is under 1%
> 3) I have mediocre insurance that costs twice as much and have a bad doctor
> ...


1) We get about 45 free channels. Weed out Spanish, religious, home shopping, and duplicate channels, that leaves about 20. That's unchanged over the Obama administration.
2) You are holding your savings in US dollars? Seriously?
3) I have healthcare insurance that's so good I've been accused of gloating just for describing it in this forum. I had no healthcare insurance when Obama was elected.
4) Of course I pay sales tax like everyone else, but my property tax is only $350/year. Most of my income is not taxable, so I pay no income tax.
5) Murder rate is 5.1 per 100,000. It was 8.9 per 100,000 when Obama was elected in 2008.
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Las-Vegas-Nevada.html


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## wwubben (Oct 13, 2004)

where I want to said:


> No, I want to cut out the middleman who is obviously favoring you over me. Government, as I mentioned to start, is my problem. All of the listed items were things government did to me without a by your leave.
> Since you say that you, on the other hand, have directly benefited by this government taking from me , and you believe in redistribution of wealth by the government who did the taking, and that government has failed in making me equal to you, the moral imperative is for you to make sure that I receive what would then create equality.
> Send me what you owe me. I'm only following the logical end you insist upon.
> If you want to stop insisting on the virtue of a government that takes from me to give to you, then I'm willing to forgive the debt you owe.


What has the government given to me?I work hard,am conservative with my money and make the business decisions that benefit me and my family.I don't ask for gifts.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

The only change I can really think of for us due to government is that we no longer pay property taxes, but that is a state, not fed thing. 

Aside from that, not much change one way or the other.


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## Twobottom (Sep 29, 2013)

mmoetc said:


> I'll refer you back to post #45 for some of my solutions. I'll be actively working for a few locals seeking office this fall. Outcomes are not guaranteed but if they succeed we will have another foothold inside the system and can work to influence changes we like. I'm still waiting to hear one thing you would change let alone how you expect to facilitate that change. Tell me again how the system is so rigged you can't be heard. I don't think I've quite gotten your point, yet.


I guess my point is that none of the things you or anyone else has done has changed the reality that we do not choose our representatives. I have been active in supporting 3rd party candidates in my area. Once in a great while, in local elections you can get one by. But in the big show, you need party and corporate backing to be taken seriously. And as Blackfeather pointed out, Ron Paul was blackballed anyway...even while running as a republican!

If you feel you can change the system, I support you. So far nobody has. Maybe you will do something that will change it, when that day comes you'll have my support.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Twobottom said:


> I guess my point is that none of the things you or anyone else has done has changed the reality that we do not choose our representatives. I have been active in supporting 3rd party candidates in my area. Once in a great while, in local elections you can get one by. But in the big show, you need party and corporate backing to be taken seriously. And as Blackfeather pointed out, Ron Paul was blackballed anyway...even while running as a republican!
> 
> If you feel you can change the system, I support you. So far nobody has. Maybe you will do something that will change it, when that day comes you'll have my support.


Still no ideas, huh? I can only do what I can do and any small influence I have is better than none.


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

wow a lot of witch hunting going on, well I guess I'll stir things up a bit more, some one wondered if I'm doing anything about the political problems locally or nationally. No. Here is why, but first my beliefs are my own I have no wish to convince anyone of them. Firstly, I hear so many people say I'm going to vote for the lesser of 2 evils, I have no desire to vote for any evil, lesser or not. Secondly, and more importantly, I consider myself a Christian, and the bible says we are ambassadors for Christ. Christ is a king of a kingdom which prophetically is yet to be set up, Does the ambassador from England vote in U.S. elections? No, he represents another government. I believe as a Christian I represent the government of God, therefore though I have to live in this world, I should not be a part of it. as I said just my belief, though I like to watch what is happening in the world.


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## Scott SW Ohio (Sep 20, 2003)

where I want to said:


> When Obama was elected,
> 1) I had 4 free channels on TV
> 2) the interest rate on my savings was at least 5%
> 3) I had good medical insurance and had a good doctor
> ...


Hey, we have two things in common - I am glad to see us out of Iraq and I like my new neighbor too! Here's how I am doing otherwise:

Before the crash I kept money in CDs and got a pretty good interest rate. When rates went to near nothing I reinvested the money in dividend stocks. That has worked out very well for me - the dividends roughly equal my best CD interest rate and share prices have nearly doubled since I bought them.

I too lost channels in the switch to digital - so I give up watching TV. I never watched a lot but now I have several hours a week back to do useful stuff around my place. I do not miss television at all. Okay, occasionally I will watch a PBS episode of Call The Midwife or Downton Abbey, but these now are available via the internet, for free, and I can watch them on my schedule.

I still have the same insurance through my employer, though the cost goes up each year. We did just get some added vision coverage, and I am now in our FSA plan to pretax some medical expenses, which moderates the cost bite. I have the same doctors as always. 

Last year I refinanced into a 15 year mortgage at 3% fixed. I would rather be debt free, but debt like this is pretty easy to take. My first mortgage, in the early years of the Reagan administration, was 12.25%. I have a mortgage because I had the chance, in early 2011, to buy a bank-owned house (my dream house) at about a third of its previous value. House prices in my area now are rebounding strongly, so this has proven to be a terrific money-making investment - not that we are going to sell any time soon. 

Things are sure changing, and that challenges us all to react to crises and opportunities as best we can. Not everyone will turn lemons into lemonade, sadly, and I feel a lot of sympathy for many of those here who find themselves worse off than before.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

painterswife said:


> If you are not choosing your government then it is your own fault. That is the whole point. The mechanisms for change are there but most would rather just complain instead of doing. Talk about living in denial.


Why don't you educate us all about those "mechanisms for change"?

How does one go about changing the fact that you have to vote one party in primary elections? Unless you registered as an Independent, in which case you throw the election board volunteers into a tizzy of, what do we do?

How do you change the fact that incumbents, due to name recognition alone, and reinforced by the fact that there is undoubtedly something popular that they voted for they can tout, will win time after time?? Often in spite of major scandals. 

How do you change the fact that the crop of candidates seems to get more pitiful year after year, so how do you get good people to run and not just have to sift thru the lesser of the evils??


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MO_cows said:


> Why don't you educate us all about those "mechanisms for change"?
> 
> How does one go about changing the fact that you have to vote one party in primary elections? Unless you registered as an Independent, in which case you throw the election board volunteers into a tizzy of, what do we do?
> 
> ...


Hard work, pounding the pavement, working the phone, working the internet, running for office, to name just a few things you could do. However sounds like you have already decided that nothing will work or is worth your effort.

How about researching what all those people who wanted same sex marriage did.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

For us, Beloved's employer, at least for this year, kept the insurance that we have had and did not raise our premiums. This may change in January.

While things went up, we had an influx of extra cash.
We used most of it to repair our trucks and purchase a home.

We find we are about the same as normal, now paying off repairs that went over budget and a few other bills. 

However we live in Texas which has, thanks to it's varied industry and other interests not been as hard hit by the bad economy as other states. At least in my area, where new oil deposits have been put to work.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Never give up.

There are two ways we pay for those we elect.

Cash as in pay

And with your vote.

If an alaskan person wants my vote they will take my call. Period. They need me I may not need them ...if they won't speak to me prior to election day why will they listen to my views on policy if they get in office.

My persistence on this has gotten known. As such local ask for my take and I give it. Those people become a voting block. And it is growing. We are a group of misfits thru out the state. We represent all parties with one major issue focused on...... accountability to the voters. We track their voting records.

Amongst ourselves we have lively debates and we learn a lot. Because we are not a group of people who are mirror clones of a point of view or dreams for this nation where we find common group we are quite a force. But we support people acting on things we do not as an individual support. Take the pot right now it is decriminalize. 

Some want it legal and I see that as growth of government. I am anti drugs for me that is where my right ends. What others partake of is there choice. NOW steal to support a drug habit is stealing ....law already on the books. I'll some over drugs law is already on the books. Impaired driving due to drugs.... law already on the books.



Get involved. Care. Government impacted every facet of your life

Medical
Education
Water wells
Chickens
Autos
size of your home
Speed that you drive
What you put in your body
Can you have off the grid living
Who will care for you children if you die
Where can you be buried.
What you can grow
Where you can grow it
How you heat your home
How much of your paycheck you keep
How many can live in your home

Just a few reasons to know the people in power.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

kasilofhome said:


> ...if they won't speak to me prior to election day why will they listen to my views on policy if they get in office.


Let me guess, you refused to vote for Barak Obama because he wouldn't take your phone calls. :hysterical:


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Read the post.

Obama is not from Alaska is he?

Now if you want not to look childish and a fool consider you next post better.


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

Because the government won't let me drive 130 miles per hour, my recent travel took 10 hours each way instead of 5.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Oggie said:


> Because the government won't let me drive 130 miles per hour, my recent travel took 10 hours each way instead of 5.


Oh- when did they change the speed limit from 130 mph?


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

55 mph was due to lower gas consumption. The benefit was lives.
Showing everyday impact on how we are controlled was an attempt to wake some up to reasons why having firm reason to vote for someone values and goals is very important. 

For me my property taxes were going to increase to the point where I would default if the local government went a head abd built a 5 million dollar inflatable done so the 400 children would get 3 weeks longer to practice soccer on grass. Thru a grassroots effort that goal was defeated. Plus I got highly involved with ACT ALLIANCE of CONCERNED TAXPAYERS, I have learned so much. Congressman Don YOUNG, Sarah Palin, Joe Miller,Sean Parnell,mead treadwell, Dan Sullivan, Rafael Cruz have all spent time with us as a group and one on one. They are just people.

I am trying to get folks to realize that as long as the voters maintain the rights we have better government. This is not a joke or bull. 

Why settle being helpless, are on homesteading today because we want to take or learn how to have more control in our lives.....how better than to get involved with polices and government.

Never give up some battles will.be lost (Obama and his gang) some will take time but find people who care and start.


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## bigjon (Oct 2, 2013)

read all the posts,laughed at some/shook my head at some.a whole lotta shtf right here.i think the original post got lost.are u better off or not.how has the current gov affected u?


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## Oggie (May 29, 2003)

where I want to said:


> Oh- when did they change the speed limit from 130 mph?


That's the point. Speed limits also limit my freedom.

Happiness is fleeting.

If I'm going to pursue it with success, I gotta drive fast.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

painterswife said:


> Hard work, pounding the pavement, working the phone, working the internet, running for office, to name just a few things you could do. However sounds like you have already decided that nothing will work or is worth your effort.
> 
> How about researching what all those people who wanted same sex marriage did.


If there was anybody running who was worth a hoot, I WOULD be out working hard on their behalf. But it seems like always, the wrong people run, for the wrong reasons. 

I only wish I knew where to find good candidates and how to recruit them. I work at a small business, I live in the boonies, there simply aren't very many people in my life! 

On the local level, we don't even get to vote on a lot of things that affect us, because we live outside the city limits. 

The "big 2" parties have way too much power over the election process. I have been advocating for a new 3rd party for years, have even started threads about it here. But I don't have the expertise to make it happen, let alone the money. 

You can only do what you can do. Don't assume all I'm doing is whining on the internet, because you would be wrong.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

MO_cows said:


> If there was anybody running who was worth a hoot, I WOULD be out working hard on their behalf. But it seems like always, the wrong people run, for the wrong reasons.
> 
> I only wish I knew where to find good candidates and how to recruit them. I work at a small business, I live in the boonies, there simply aren't very many people in my life!
> 
> ...


I am not assuming anything, only reading what you write. You asked for examples but shoot them all down as fast as you read them.


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## ROSEMAMA (Jan 12, 2007)

bigjon said:


> read all the posts,laughed at some/shook my head at some.a whole lotta shtf right here.i think the original post got lost.are u better off or not.how has the current gov affected u?


Well, in the Land of Lincoln, since 2008 I have : Higher taxes all the way round (highest rise was PT which went up 25%); my health ins. went up (emp. pays part, so this will change again in Jan.); cost of food is up, so the garden is much bigger; tightened my belt big time to become debt-free because this administration gives me no confidence in anything it says or does. 
I have seen colleges at other hospitals lose their jobs, so I'm constantly preparing for that eventuality. 
Savings have been converted into non-fiat based wealth.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Other than the usual conservative asset tweaks I do during bear financial periods the only thing I might consider a "personal change due to government action" is the solar and spring fed hydro generated electricity enhancements I am trying to add to my emergency electricity source in case Ohhboy  succeeds in achieving Australian style carbon emission EPA revisions and utility hikes.

I figure if he succeeds on his threat and the electricity costs rise I hope to use my current emergency electric source as a limited standard use feed to power 30 to 40 percent of my electrical consumption and instead of having to switch critical appliances over during extended blackouts from grid failure if the grid goes down my house will just be in brown out.


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