# ? Cooperation amongst neighbors



## Joel_BC (Nov 10, 2009)

First, I'll say that although I respect survivalists for many reasons, I have not really been one in a dedicated way. I do live on rural land, know how to raise food, have probably a year or so of food stocked here (much of it just the accumulation from raising food & smart bulk shopping), etc. I'm handy with the outdoors & with tools, as is my wife. Plus we're flexible and adaptive.

We're in Canada. I've long realized that there could be a massive breakdown in society, because - mainly, in my view - too many people have become un-skilled, un-self-reliant, and thoroughly dependent on "big systems" - plus have perhaps badly priorized the values in their lives. But I won't go into all that!

Okay, now here's my question: How cooperative do you believe the people in your neighborhood would be in a crisis that might extend to affecting your own region (e.g., shortages or interruptions of goods and/or services people have come to expect)? If you feel cooperation would occur, what form(s) do you believe it might take?


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

I'd like to think that community gardens, massive compost endeavors, clothing redistribution, community protection/defense and barter would flourish in most smaller, more remote areas.
For certain portions of the country, (world) there is no reason that a relative utopia couldn't be realized, a few weeks or months into the unknown.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

In my area I have no doubt that most would work together for the good of all. There's only about 3 families in this area. Everyone is either closely or remotely related to each other. I'm one of the "wild cards" that moved in from somewhere else. 

This area is so close tied that I got a call the other day and it was a wrong #, but still talked to the guy for a few minutes. He ask me if I'd like a deer if he gets an extra one.  Yep, this is a pretty close community where just about everyone is willing to help out their neighbors. The close community covers about a 15 or 20 mile radius, with a few people outside the radius who are included. Very few inside the radius are excluded, and everyone knows who they are.


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## Riverrat (Oct 14, 2008)

In my area there would not be to big of a problem with people working together. The area I live in now is 90% family, and the rest are long time residents. That is just a way of life here....


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Do you even know your neighbors?????

I do know my neighnors, and we help each other now during the good times, so I have no doubt that we would coontinue to do so if things got bad..

Plus most of my neighbors have Marine Corps ties - they are either Marine Corps Veterans, or have a USMC Vet in their family. So at least we have a common bond beside just a close proxmity to each other!


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

I'd say that anybody with any brains will realize fairly quickly after a major disaster that the people who group together with others will have a much better chance of surviving. I'd expect a kind of social Darwinism to happen, with many of the "slower" people(to get the idea) to end up dying off quickly due to their own lack of action. Anybody who waits around for somebody to come save them or the government to come help them will be easy pickings for the people out there who realize that they're on their own.:bash:


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## naturelover (Jun 6, 2006)

Joel, do you mind if I ask what region of BC you're in?

With regard to neighbourly and community cooperation, not only in the area I'm in (lower mainland) but for the whole province, I would expect to see even more support and cooperation than the level of friendly cooperation that already exists west of the Rockies and north of the border. If the provincial population was a lot higher than what it is now then food supplies might be a bit more difficult to provide and spread around to more isolated places, but it would still happen. As it is right now, if society broke down in more highly populated regions outside of this province, I think this province would do okay as a whole after a bit of adjustment. My biggest concern would be about getting enough wheat supplied to BC for the first year or so. Otherwise, we already have all the resources that would be needful.

.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Right now, my next door neighbor and I exchange taking care of each other - then up the long drive of this little mobile home park - I know of some, mostly on waving basis - but the manager of this place is a good 'mistress of ceremonies' when it comes to looking out for all of us.

I do know manager has let me know if someone moves in and needs something and if I might have extra, or help me feed a pet outside cat of the lady that had to go live with her nephew, etc.

Angie


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## Pam6 (Apr 9, 2009)

I think it is 50/50 for my neighborhood...which I would actually just consider all of the people who live on my road as my neighborhood. It is a 1.5 mile dead end road with 11 neighbors. Half of them already kind of help each other and the other half would not do anything for you now so I would not think that they would be very dependable in a crisis situation.


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## cast iron (Oct 4, 2004)

I used to have significant doubts that people would band together in the event of a disaster of some type, but after being through 3 severe flooding disasters in this state I can say the human condition of caring for one another and helping one another is alive and well in the vast majority of people.

The amount of neighbor helping neighbor was unbelievable, everything from providing food and shelter for others to rescuing stranded people, and carrying livestock through almost waist deep fast moving water so they would not drown. It is simply amazing what can be done when people give of their resources and skills to help each other.


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## Trixters_muse (Jan 29, 2008)

We have several new families around here and I am still getting to know many of them, not many of my old friends left anymore. I have been here 10 years and I have two neighbors that have been here 15 and 8 years, everyone else has been here two years or less. So far, three of the newbies are nice and the lady next to me has been really nice, we helped her to install a privacy fence and she helped us take down a huge holly tree. We look after her dogs since she works nights and every time she heads to the store she asks if we need anything or want to ride along. My main concern around here is no one really stocks up on food, most everyone buys take out or shops by the week and most of them have two or more kids. If SHTF, helping each other will be great and dandy but whats gonna happen when all the "friendly and helpful" neighbors get hungry and I'm the one with all the food? Of course they don't know what I have, but it is a concern for me. I'm hoping to educate some of them a bit even if I come off as a bit odd or eccentric, it sure won't be the first time!


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## Jakk (Aug 14, 2008)

In a SHTF situation I am screwed. I live in a suburban, cookie cutter subdivision and hardly know my neighbors. Directly next to me on both sides are friendly neighbors and I know I could count on them, and they know they can count on me. But, one neighbor has his house up for sale. Right across the street is a rental house that gets new tenants every year. The rent is high and the house is small so the tenants do not normally stay more than a year. 

Next to them is a family that I dont trust. I run a food pantry and help them out weekly with groceries. I know for a fact they hit up every food pantry within 25 miles of here, plus they have established themselves in THREE Churches. The people from the Churches are always willing to help. They had a new fireplace(complete with ceiling to floor brick wall) installed courtesy of one of the congregations. They are moochers and although they do give me some food donations every once in a while (what they get from other pantries and dont like), they are out for themselves. 

The rest of the block is too wrapped up in new HD TV's and SUVs. The lady two houses down from me got a HUGE TV for xmas. How do I know? I saw her putting the box out to the curb. She was positioning it so everyone could see the front of the box with the picture!


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## TurnerHill (Jun 8, 2009)

If society collapses, cooperation among neighbors will become universal, and very quickly.

The bad guys will form groups; the good guys (or indifferent guys) will need to do the same, or they will die. Quickly.

Lone wolves die alone.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

We are in a small remote area, our neighbors already help each other.


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## megafatcat (Jun 30, 2009)

Sounds great but when that neighbor has a group of friends and relations who want to join up with your group and they will then outnumber the original group?
When someone has items stolen, how long will a group of semi-strangers last? The thief might be a drifter passing through, but unless you catch them how do you know?
My ideal would be a system like the Fed should be, Individual homesteads cooperating in specific, limited areas. But when things get hungry, how long until civil war?


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## Joel_BC (Nov 10, 2009)

naturelover said:


> Joel, do you mind if I ask what region of BC you're in?
> 
> With regard to neighbourly and community cooperation, not only in the area I'm in (lower mainland) but for the whole province, I would expect to see even more support and cooperation than the level of friendly cooperation that already exists west of the Rockies and north of the border.


No, I don't mind your asking. I'm in the southeast corner, not too far from Trail & Castlegar.

I _do_ know my neighbors, and the majority of people living here also know theirs. We have circles of friends here who are truly mutually supportive - plus, there are many links amongst these circles. As well, very many skills are represented among the people in these circles - with food provision, construction, mechanics & hand skills, first-aid, home-making, etc being some of the prime ones.


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Some of my neighbors will make it. Some won't.

I don't have a huge inclination to help all of them reach a self-actualized, survival-aware state of being. In an extended emergency, those who were prepared are going to be deluged by the ones who weren't. 

There are those who tried to be prepared but failed in some aspect. They should be helped. There will be those who weren't prepared but now realize the absolute necessity of it and are willing to change their ways. They should be helped. Then there will be those who were a drain on the resources of a thriving community before and will continue to be a drain on the resources of a survival community. I don't feel any obligation to them and would probably keep them moving at the point of the gun.

What part of the ant's plan involved her feeding the grasshoppers who played all summer long? God's plan called for Noah to gather two of every animal and his family. It did not call for him to build extra space to save the ungodly neighbors who mocked him and did not help to build the ark.


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## Vashti (Dec 22, 2006)

We live in a pretty rural area, and our neighbors are all at least .25 miles away. The three closest are all elderly, and in poor health. They used to be preppers, but now just live week to week, waiting for the big D, I think. One still has horses, and we help to care for them when we can. 

I don't know my neighbors very well at all, and this has been weighing on me. Especially after reading Alan's story and now I'm nearly finished with Alas, Babylon...both have strong stories of the necessity to have a working community after TSHTF. I'm thinking about ways that I can get to know my neighbors...especially those with families that may be a little further away. 

On another note, we live about 2 miles from a small town, and 16 from a larger community. If things were to really get bad, there wouldn't be enough law enforcement for the whole county, and our little community would get left out in the cold without help. Our little fire department is made up of aging retirees, and I'm not especially excited about them providing any kind of law enforcement either. I wish there were a way to not only get to know my neighbors, but to set up an action plan together for defense and community sustainability should real problems arise (without coming out and making myself look like a real weirdo.)


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Ernie said:


> Some of my neighbors will make it. Some won't.
> 
> I don't have a huge inclination to help all of them reach a self-actualized, survival-aware state of being. In an extended emergency, those who were prepared are going to be deluged by the ones who weren't.
> 
> ...


Even more ironic is the story of the ten virgins...... five were prepared, five were not. All were warned of the impending circumstances.

Whom to help will definitely be a moment by moment exercise in discernment.


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## Henry (Mar 1, 2006)

Well my nearest neighbor is about 25 klm away. About 20 years ago when we were making a trip to town we noticed them moving in. We went back a few days later and i was able to help them with digging a well so we do get on. Even so if times get dangerous we will cut off the road and go it alone for a few years if necessary. The advantage to being able to grow and shoot most of your food is important.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

You get to know your neighbors by interacting with them. Everyone pretty much knows everyone around our neck of the woods. Cooperating doesn't mean that you have to be best of friends, just that you have common interests.

I kind of agree with Ernie. 

Mike


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

How well my neighbors will work co-operatively with me in a crisis will depend on how well they cooperate now. Sure they may get a little icey but those previous connections will work once you apply a little well remembered good neighborly help yourself for them. Establishing neighborly networks after the fact is a real up-hill battle.


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## Common Tator (Feb 19, 2008)

I started this thread a while back. It is about the CERT program. You might want to see about a similar program in Canada. http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=331878&highlight=CERT

My ranch is located in the National Forest. The nearest small town prepared for an emergency a while back. They have a shipping container filled with food and emergency gear. They did this because they realized that there could be hundreds of stranded people, motorists, folks attending local camps and retreats, etc. This highway was blocked for 3 weeks after the Big Bear quake. They are prepared to feed and offer some comfort to those in need. That is a better plan that driving them off at gunpoint. Really, most SHTF scenarios are temporary. This approach is much better for those occasions. Most of the folks in that town have also made their own preparations in their own homes as well.

Please review the CERT site, and you will see many, many locations where large scale preparations have been made.

My own preparations mean that my family and I won't be additional mouths to feed for that town, and we may even be able to help.


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## manygoatsnmore (Feb 12, 2005)

The immediate neighbors here are good ones, always willing to help if needed, and I offer my help to them as well, spare plants, etc, too. Although we are not close close, I know I can rely on them and I think they know I am there for them, as well. One of my goals for the new year is to expand that relationship and get to know even more of the neighbors along our road. I know some of them that are like minded pretty well, but there are new neighbors I haven't really met yet. There are a couple neighbors here that I really DON'T like, but most are fine.

If I am able to get to work, we actually have a pretty good group of like minded prepper-type folks on my crew. We do a lot of trading and do talk about SHTF type situations amongst ourselves now, but geographically, we are spread over 4-5 counties in 2 states...that could be a problem in the long run. Depending on the situation, these people could be a real asset, or totally out of the picture. :shrug:


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## cast iron (Oct 4, 2004)

manygoatsnmore said:


> One of my goals for the new year is to expand that relationship and get to know even more of the neighbors along our road.


Good point. I've started to welcome people who have just moved in as well. Today I spent $4 on a box of cookies from the bakery and I will walk down the road to the people who just moved in and welcome them to the neighborhood. $4 for starting off on the right foot with neighbor relations. 

Yeah I know, I should have baked them myself, but I was concerned that poisoning them might diminish the good deed.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Just remember that no matter how hard you try, some of your neighbors will not get along with you or others!!!! 

I have been introduced to most of the folks for a few miles up and down the main road, over the last few years. It helps if the old timers put in a good word for you, while you are introduced to the neighbors. I get waved at all of the time while driving by most of the neighbors, and have been know to pull over and shoot the breeze if the weather is nice/ not raining.

There are a few folks along the main road that I would not trust one bit, even during the good times! The bad guys kind of keep their distance from the local territory of the "Gun Happy Marine" that knows in a 'good way' about 1/2 of the County Sheriff's Deputies.

As Ernie posted, I can only show folks the way - but I can't make them responseable for their own future safety. Nor will I go out of my way to help the folks whom wouldn't even prepare to help themselves. Geez, beside a whole dedicated section on 'Earthquake Kits' in the local phone books, the TV stations are always showing making "Earthquake Prep Kits" commericals. So too bad if folks don't even have the bare essentials for 3 days of staying at home.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

This thread got me to thinking about my awesome neighbors and sure has me grateful for them (on good terms with all of them)! Right next door, two Nurses (husband & wife), hardworking Contractor on our other side (new neighbor). The family above are kind people, but couldn't be relied upon. Short distance away, small store owner stocked with more firewood than "Larry" (84 yr young retired Logger up the road) with DD/SIL working on remodeling he & DW's view home (he is another hardworking Contractor), an Electrician... Most of the guys are incredibly handy around here & can do anything my DH can't (he can do a LOT due to the life he lived). Unfortunately, I'd say the Nurse and Larry's sister are the ONLY women who would be worth anything (besides me, of course) during an emergency. I say this because a lot of women can't cook, sew, work very hard, or even handle a firearm (pitiful)---this is bizarre as the guys are incredibly handy around here! Not far, guys with heavy equipment, well equipped fishing boats, portable mills, many with chainsaws, trucks, most of the guys are good hunters, too, etc...and let's go back to "Larry."

At 84 years of age, Larry is still logging trees on his own property, just built a post/beam carport & also a craft cottage for his daughter (did a beautiful job), and he has a large log skidder, backhoe, and other assorted tractors & equipment. Larry grows an incredible 5,000 sq organic garden every year, has a wonderful fruit orchard, and loves to barter!

When we had a snowstorm, every single neighbor was checked on! The road was cleared by LARRY, not the County! When that snow melted and we had a heavy rainstorm, the resulting flooding washed out our only way in. We were all so well prepared, most would have been fine for at least a month (we could have been fine for a year). That included our neighbors. Most of them keep a lot of extra food on hand, most have generators themselves, and it is high time we call a meeting. It was discussed a few months back, but no meeting was ever organized. That will be my job and probably this month would be a good one to plan one! 

Since all of our community is on community or private wells, a power outage takes out the pumps (all wells 300+ feet deep). My DH has us on a large enough generator to power the deep well pump & run our household & also machinery in his Shop. When the power shuts off, the generator auto-switches on within 7 seconds. This means we aren't without water (private well). Unfortunately, most of our community doesn't have private wells. When there is an outage, they have no water (none of the local community wells have backup generators). We also have 1KW, 6KW and 8KW generators---that would probably help a few neighbors. Since we have a guest room, a camper, a garden cabin (soon to be heated), and also a travel trailer- we have room to take in some people if we had to.

Our situation is truly rare, I know. We all wave at each other, stop to chat when we see each other, and are on a first name basis at the least with all of them. I hadn't called "Larry" for about a week and he walked on down and checked on us!


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## cast iron (Oct 4, 2004)

megafatcat said:


> Sounds great but when that neighbor has a group of friends and relations who want to join up with your group and they will then outnumber the original group?
> When someone has items stolen, how long will a group of semi-strangers last? The thief might be a drifter passing through, but unless you catch them how do you know?
> My ideal would be a system like the Fed should be, Individual homesteads cooperating in specific, limited areas. But when things get hungry, how long until civil war?


Our plan is to eat the crooks first, then the ornery neighbors, then any neighbors who are left, and finally, we will save extended family members for last.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

If the community doesn't get along now, odds are they won't later, when it really counts. There are three people out on the main road that have moved in in the last few years... they weren't interested in talking, so phooey on em.

We've got good eggs and bad eggs. The bad eggs are hardly tolerated now. Whether they'll turn a new leaf, or keep up their rotten ways is the question. Rotten ways won't be tolerated long if they feel law and order isn't around.

Grasshoppers will find living rough.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Wayne02 said:


> Our plan is to eat the crooks first, then the ornery neighbors, then any neighbors who are left, and finally, we will save extended family members for last.



Soylent Green..... It's people.......


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Ernie said:


> What part of the ant's plan involved her feeding the grasshoppers who played all summer long? God's plan called for Noah to gather two of every animal and his family. It did not call for him to build extra space to save the ungodly neighbors who mocked him and did not help to build the ark.


You have a great way of putting wise words together.


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## woodsy_gardener (May 27, 2007)

First off, I identify myself as a 'doomer', also a liberal and a bachelor. My neighbor up the road is the head of a clan (brother, son in law, grandkids), Navy, conservative, is also a doomer. We were talking recently about the, as we see it, oncoming disaster. He made the comment that when the cell phones stop working it'll be time to park the vehicle and stay where you are.

He laughed at a new neighbor who was teaching his wife to shoot a 22, just in case. He's a hunter and has a nice collection, nothing against guns. Point being, and I agree, we are far enough out that we will be forgotten. He has the guns to hunt and defend but does not think it will be necessary to defend our location. We both planned it that way 35 years ago.

I hope I'm wrong and the economy will recovery so much that Goldman-Sachs can keep paying multi million $$ bonuses for another 100 years.


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

lorichristie said:


> This thread got me to thinking about my awesome neighbors and sure has me grateful for them (on good terms with all of them)! Right next door, two Nurses (husband & wife), hardworking Contractor on our other side (new neighbor). The family above are kind people, but couldn't be relied upon. Short distance away, small store owner stocked with more firewood than "Larry" (84 yr young retired Logger up the road) with DD/SIL working on remodeling he & DW's view home (he is another hardworking Contractor), an Electrician... Most of the guys are incredibly handy around here & can do anything my DH can't (he can do a LOT due to the life he lived). *Unfortunately, I'd say the Nurse and Larry's sister are the ONLY women who would be worth anything (besides me, of course) during an emergency. I say this because a lot of women can't cook, sew, work very hard, or even handle a firearm (pitiful)---this is bizarre as the guys are incredibly handy around here! * Not far, guys with heavy equipment, well equipped fishing boats, portable mills, many with chainsaws, trucks, most of the guys are good hunters, too, etc...and let's go back to "Larry."


In some way's I'd agree with you in general with the women I know but in others I'd point out some other things to look for.

During brain studies it was discovered, among other things like more comprehensive communication abilities, women will often choose the least complicated method of doing something. In choice studies, women will overwhelmingly choose a smaller, simpler and less effective tool that takes longer to complete a task than a complicated one that imposes more risk. Some of the conclusions were that women, _when working alone_ or with another who is equally skilled, always choose the less risky method of doing something. It is believed it stems from genetic benefits in that a women who survives by not choosing risky things is more likely to have children that she can protect to grow up. But, when presented with a choice of not doing the job at all or doing the risky behavior when there is sufficient gain, she will usually do it herself, regardless of skill set.

Makes sense yes.

Well, eye opener for me was how helpless I really did think a lot of women were and was worried that I'd be constantly helping them with stuff when their husbands deployed. Shocker. They were bucking up and doing all kinds of stuff...including using a chain saw!

I think that a lot of the stuff that we look down on women for not knowing how to do anymore is simply a matter of prioritizing. Many women say, "Why should I make clothes?" because not only can she buy them for cheaper (and Cabela's flannels ARE awesome and better than my home made) but also because she is working all day at a job and coming home and having the lion's share of caring for children and household.

That doesn't mean that if something happened, she wouldn't be cramming a needle through cloth like a madwoman right enough.

When looking at skills, look harder at basic intelligence and understanding. Skills can come, smarts can't!


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## TurnerHill (Jun 8, 2009)

texican said:


> If the community doesn't get along now, odds are they won't later, when it really counts. There are three people out on the main road that have moved in in the last few years... they weren't interested in talking, so phooey on em.
> 
> We've got good eggs and bad eggs. The bad eggs are hardly tolerated now. Whether they'll turn a new leaf, or keep up their rotten ways is the question. Rotten ways won't be tolerated long if they feel law and order isn't around.
> 
> Grasshoppers will find living rough.


I agree with this. 

Since the Free State Project selected New Hampshire as the, "Free State", we have been inundated with libertarians, many of them of the survivalist mindset. Many of these are great people, and a real net benefit to the community.

But many are not. Many are stand-offish, hostile to local custom, in constant conflict with small-town police forces that are really pretty easygoing, and generally don't get along well with others, including others whose families have lived here for hundreds of years.

In a societal meltdown, what would happen to these people? They may (and do) "prep". They may have lots of guns and ammo, and food stores, and have surrounded their trailers with barbed wire. But they have no connection to their neighbors or the larger community.

Many people on this thread seem to feel that the question of, "Would you band together with your neighbors" is one that the well-prepared survivalist approaches from a position of strength. That you will be comparatively well off, and will get to choose who to work with (the whole grasshopper and ant thing). 

Well, that may not be so. If there is a social meltdown, my neighbors and I will no doubt work together. We have a long connection to this land, and have worked on it and hunted over it for generations. We all have the means to defend ourselves. We have skills that would be valuable.

Would we be able to tolerate the existence of heavily-armed lone-wolf survivalists of uncertain loyalties and anti-social tendencies in our midst? I don't think we would. You can fill in the rest for yourself.


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

There is a valid concept, long recognized in International Law, for resolving conflicts when all other options have failed.
It is called _Trial by Combat_", and the overwhelming tendency, longstanding in antiquity, is that good prevails.
There is no better reason to strive for excellency and see to it that your own intentions are always pure.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

My experience has been that when a major disaster hits, people mostly work together - some more than others. Some people will step up and volunteer and organize, others wait to be asked, but few flat-out refuse either to help or be helped. Some people, among them some of the best prepared, figure that the most helpful thing they can do is just stay out of the way and let the people whose job it is to organize, rescue, and repair do their thing.

I grew up in hurricane country and was part of the local Red Cross organization when we were hit by a major storm in 1983 the entire island was effected and was generally cutoff both from the mainland and different parts of the island were cut off from each other. There was a total loss of electricity, phone, and clean water. Many houses were damaged or destroyed as were businesses and industry.

Most of the malfeasance came in the form of profiteering - over-charging for ice, gasoline or other fuel, generators and chain saws. The majority of these people weren't locals, but people from the mainland that trickled in as the roads opened up or came by boat. A few of them came to bad ends but most were just shut down by the law and or had their merchandise siezed.

Some of the more interesting things I observed were in the more remote and inaccessible parts of the island. The people out in the marshes fell into one of two categories - they were either totally prepared and self sufficient, or they normally lived in such austere conditions that the storm made no noticiable impact on their lives other than the number of visitors they received. The self-sufficient types that I met were more than willing to share though, and became one our more dependable sources of ice.

One of the jobs I did during the daytime was to deliver food and water to neighborhoods. We delivered both to all neighborhoods - rich and poor alike, including the very worst neighborhoods in town. There were some abuses in the projects and other poor areas - people jumping in line, and coming through the line more than once. We never felt that we were in any danger though, and solved the abuse problem by going to those areas last and just passing out whatever we had left on the truck until it was all gone.


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## FarmerChick (Dec 28, 2009)

My area is getting to "do you know your neighbors"---nope

I know all the horse people I ride with, all the farms I deal and sell with, all the "like minded" people like me from long ago who won't sell there land for new developements.

So I know I have a support system that will work if the SH*tf........we barter everything and borrow and all that now. All us farmer and dirt types stick together and we know who we are. 

All the farms that sold out and now have fancy houses on one acre lots....they are on their own...LOL....I know "it" has moved into my area....the people who rely on society to provide for them. 

I take care of family, friends first, would I help others later if I could, yes. But we come first and in the end I will fight and shoot if necessary to ensure my survival...hopefully it would never come to that type of situation (well not in my lifetime)

I can survive. Others I don't know abuot that aren't in my circle.


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## stranger (Feb 24, 2008)

My neighbors all work for the state or are school teachers and they think anyone with more than 2 days food or a garden is a right wing nut.


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## Joel_BC (Nov 10, 2009)

ChristyACB said:


> When looking at skills, look harder at basic intelligence and understanding. Skills can come, smarts can't!


The idea of "skills" may have come into our discussion because I mentioned skills in my opening post. I didn't mean to say - at all - that skills are the only important thing... positive attitude, adapatablity, "smarts" (like Christy said), and effective focus of energy are each imporant, too. These aspects are important in rural community members. I'd say _cooperativeness_ is, too.

But I _do_ have a personal 'beef' with the school system and other aspects of education in modern North American life that have neglected to expose kids to cooking, carpentry, fabric arts, basic plumbing, basic home electrical, food production, and so on. Seems like dangerously partial education to me. Not to say that I reject people, as individuals, because of this fault in the education system.


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

ChristyACB-


> Well, eye opener for me was how helpless I really did think a lot of women were and was worried that I'd be constantly helping them with stuff when their husbands deployed. Shocker. They were bucking up and doing all kinds of stuff...including using a chain saw!


Eyeopener for me was to see how incredibly HELPLESS almost every single woman was *around here.* Not sure about your study except we had emergency situations and most of the women were acting like chickens with their heads cut off. A few of us, the capable "thinking" type, actually did whatever we could to help and solve problems. I am a problem solver by nature and can thank my grandparents and my father for teaching me many useful skills. Now, most men around here are the hardworking problem solving types and very few headless chickens there. I am not prejudice, since I AM A WOMAN, LOL. Now, on studies, I am so out of the box that they don't seem to apply to me most of the time.

I believe long term hardship invokes women to expand their skills.


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## Joel_BC (Nov 10, 2009)

I know it's an individual matter. Each of us hs his or her feeling about where the vulnerabilities or weaknesses of the current situation lie, and what might tend to "go wrong" first. My own feeling is that the sort of general stability in the economic sphere - the North-Amrican "business as usual" of the Post WWII era - seems unlikely to re-establish permanently. Seems to me that stretches like the recession of the early '80s and the 2008-2010 period will come more frequently. And it will impact local finance & economics. Could send out a lot of ripples.

I feel it's likely that more people will feel the impulse to 'knuckle down' (or "buck up') and be more self-reliant, as the fat of the land in the big system diminishes. I'm not anticipating social breakdown into guerilla warfare amongst social factions - but _not_ saying it could not occur, particularly in some localities.

But, for instance, this past year certain seed companies were selling so much that they ran out of certain seeds. Other shortages of this sort could easily occur.

Neighbors who save seed and are willing, to a reasonable extent, to share it (and share knowledge about saving seed) would seem to make sense. And similar things.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

We have been through three floods, a couple fires , power outages and other minor disasters . In every case our neighbor hood has come together and every one helped in what ever ways they could .
Its no secret that I and Ernie have a different view of what the Lord tells us concerning treatment of our fellow man .
Im a ten fold kind of person . Firmly believing that for every good deed done it will be returned ten fold . Call it Karma call it the Golden rule but its always worked . After all Christ himself told us to love thy neighbor as thy self .
As for Noah and why he was spared well look a bit closer the world was being punished for being selfish the people punished were those that were selfish and self indulgent. Only one of many examples given in the Bible of people who put themselves first being punished , while those who gave of them selves and all that they had were rewarded .
No one is an island unto themselves .
All the prepping in the world will not save your life without cultivating human resources as well .
If someone really wants what you have they only need to observe for a week. In that time they will discover how many people are in your compound and then they can simply snipe every one off one at a time from a hidden position until all are dead and walk in without fear . 
This can easily be done from 500 yards + out


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Im a ten fold kind of person . Firmly believing that for every good deed done it will be returned ten fold . Call it *Karma* call it the Golden rule but its always worked


Karma works for bad stuff too


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Would we be able to tolerate the existence of heavily-armed lone-wolf survivalists of uncertain loyalties and anti-social tendencies in our midst? I don't think we would. You can fill in the rest for yourself.


So youre going to be a vigilante hit squad?
I think youve watched too many Charles Bronson movies


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> But I do have a personal 'beef' with the school system and other aspects of education in modern North American life that have neglected to expose kids to *cooking, carpentry, fabric arts, basic plumbing, basic home electrical, food production*, and so on. Seems like dangerously partial education to me. Not to say that I reject people, as individuals, because of this fault in the education system.


I dont see where those subjects have much of a place in K-12, and they are there in Community colleges for anyone whos made it that far without figuring out a lot of it already


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## wyld thang (Nov 16, 2005)

ChristyACB said:


> During brain studies it was discovered, among other things like more comprehensive communication abilities, women will often choose the least complicated method of doing something. In choice studies, women will overwhelmingly choose a smaller, simpler and less effective tool that takes longer to complete a task than a complicated one that imposes more risk.
> !


so this is why I grab a butter knife when I need a screwdriver


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## ChristieAcres (Apr 11, 2009)

dangit, another study that proves I think more like a man...HELP ME?! I do everything the more complicated way, and trouble-shoot very well, and excelled in the guy thinking stuff. That means I get along great with guys, anyway  Okay, most of them, but not the guys who want to chase me down and turn me into dinner. Oh, that is another thread...LOL!


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## TurnerHill (Jun 8, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> So youre going to be a vigilante hit squad?
> I think youve watched too many Charles Bronson movies


Hey, I'm on record as thinking that all of this, "What I will do after the apocalypse" stuff is silly daydreaming. I don't think it is going to happen in my lifetime.

That said, if it did happen and a nutjob was endangering my community, and by extension my family? Whether through his own paranoia, inablility to work with others, or excess of religious fervor? Scoped .30-06 from the treeline when he goes out for water, and he'll never know what hit him. 

I'll go further. It is clear many people HOPE for a breakdown, for various reasons. One of those reasons is that they plan to build a "Godly" Christian society from the ashes.

Those people will be treated in exactly the same way that a group showing up to re-establish the global Islamic caliphate would be treated.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

TurnerHill said:


> I'll go further. It is clear many people HOPE for a breakdown, for various reasons. One of those reasons is that they plan to build a "Godly" Christian society from the ashes.
> 
> Those people will be treated in exactly the same way that a group showing up to re-establish the global Islamic caliphate would be treated.


Very true
One should look at how and why the 
Amish have been about to remain as they are.
they have in many cases face prejudice and hate yet rather tan rise to the hate with violence and anger they ignore it and continue on their peaceful path

Many seem to hope for a apocalypse and seem to invision a mad max world .
the thing is those who plan to organize and take will quickly be killed off by others just like them


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Turnerhill,

You have an interesting and dangerous way of thinking. The fact that a person isn't interested to work with you makes them a threat? Personally I would consider someone like yourself to be a threat. By the way, what all do you bring to the table that people should be tripping over their feet running to be your best friend if the SHTF?

You might be proud of your 30-06 but don't seem to consider that the person you are thinking of taking out may have an 82A1 and be able to stand off just a wee bit (ok, a lot) further than you when they consider taking you out.

The fact that you would voice such thoughts publicly is a good indicator that folks that you might consider a threat already have an inkling that they should consider you a threat.

Personally, as long as folks leave me or those associated with me alone I'm generally willing to reciprocate. 

Seems like you have a need to impose yourself on others "pre-emptively". That might turn out to be hazardous to your health. It certainly would in my neck of the woods. Most folks know each other and a lot of them are related one way or another. 

Just my 2 cents.

Mike


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## TurnerHill (Jun 8, 2009)

They sure better not be working at cross-purposes.

If you read my earlier posts, you will see that I am one of those "locals" who know and/or are related to most in my area. 

Way too many survialist types aren't looking forward to the end because they want to be left alone. They are looking forward to the end because they figure that in the confusion, they will be able to impose their own values on a world that, as they see it, has rejected them.

If some of our recently arrived crazies were sponsoring an in-gathering of similarly-minded crazies from away, or if they were trying to impose their world-view or religious views on us, I'd say the local boys would have something to say about it.

As to what I would bring to the table that "people should be tripping over their feet running to be your best friend if the SHTF?", the answer is nothing. The local people are ALREADY my friends of long standing. That is kinda the point. These are people I went to school with, hunted with, served on the local fire department with, and who voted me into local public office. MY people, in other words. 

If society is breaking down, we will be returning to the sort of tribal and village system that has prevailed for the vast majority of human history. Subsistence villages don't have the luxury of putting up with kooks. Especially kooks who cannot or will not respect the mores of the larger group, who seek to impose their religious views on the larger group, or refuse to participate in the common defense.

Lone wolves die alone. And a wolf pack doesn't allow lone wolves in it's territory.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

I am downright proud to know someone who lives in an area where everyone thinks absolutely alike and will all buy into exactly what you say must be done. It positively sends shivers down my spine to think of the unanimity of thought.

In my area folks are not quite so stepford minded even though most have ties going back to Western Reserve times. About the only thing they will likely unite on is outsiders coming in to tell them what to do. I have a feeling that locals trying to tell them what to do might get shot up a bit as well. Folks in the area just don't seem to take to other people telling them what they have to do. If it makes sense they will consider it. Kind of like the sign in the County building telling people not to spit (chaw) on the floor.

I don't exactly see society breaking down all that fast around our farm in the way you seem to be fantasizing about. The boom passed the area by and the bust is just the same old thing and another notch in the belt taken in. Even at the height of the boom unemployment was running over 11%.

I expect there might be an uptick in problems but we just don't seem as concerned about strange crazies as you seem to be. Maybe it's because you have a strange crazy magnet out your way that is attracting all those folks. Another possibility is that our area isn't perceived as being quite as attractive to folks who think they might impose themselves on others. Who knows.

Glad that you have everything under control in your area. :hobbyhors It means all the rest of us can sleep easier at night.

Mike


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## sunshinytraci (Oct 20, 2007)

I was in the '94 earthquake in Northridge, CA. My family only really talked to a few of our neighbors before the quake, but after, boy, everyone became so friendly and helpful. We had big barbeques where we all brought things to share. It was kinda cool for the week or so we had no utilities. After that, it all pretty much went back to the way it was before. 

You never know how your neighborhood will behave in a crisis situation. My experience (although limited in duration which is surely a factor. No one was starving.) was very positive.


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## rabbitsbus (Mar 3, 2007)

What an interesting topic. I'm new here and smile at the neighbors working together that most of you have. In a SHTF situation I am on my own and know it. Why? Because trouble came to my family this past year and I know how my neighbors reacted. I too. took goodies to new folks, heck...I was the one who took soup to the sick in the hood. I babysat for more than one family bla,bla,bla. Anyway, when I was down (going thur a divorce) one by one, they came by...."Can I have your tractor since you won't need it"? The livestock you're selling? well. I could take it off your hands to do you a favor for free. Can I buy your house?(offering a third its value) I have no sign up as I intend to stay here. I actually have neighbors that pulled up and walked my property! Anyway, I know what to expect. Hope none of you are disappointed with your neighbors the way I've been


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> That said, if it did happen and a nutjob was endangering my community, and by extension my family? Whether through his own paranoia, inablility to work with others, or excess of religious fervor? Scoped .30-06 from the treeline when he goes out for water, and he'll never know what hit him.


So you will judge who is "endangering the community" or who is a "nutjob"?

Sounds to me like YOU are the dangerous one who is a threat


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## TurnerHill (Jun 8, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> So you will judge who is "endangering the community" or who is a "nutjob"?
> 
> Sounds to me like YOU are the dangerous one who is a threat


Nope, the community will. Just as small subsistence villages have always done.

Your right to be left alone to do whatever you darn well please, without regard for your community, is a right afforded to you by our Constitution and the time of plenty in which we live.

If TSHTF, no Constitution, no plenty.

And no lone wolves, unless they demonstrate themselves to be harmless.

I know my neighbors. If times were that bad, none of the anarcho-libertarian whackos drawn to our area by the FSP, or the religious whackos who are presnet to some degree everywhere in this country, would be allowed to gather in like-minded people to establish the dominance their own ideology. They just wouldn't. So when I read people hear ramble on about making connections with like-minded people, I laugh a bit.

Make connections with your neighbors, even if you think that they are insufficiently ant-like.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Nope, the community will. Just as small subsistence villages have always done.


That's not what you said. You said it would be *you and YOUR friends*.

A "community" is EVERYONE



> Would we be able to tolerate the existence of heavily-armed lone-wolf survivalists of *uncertain loyalties and anti-social tendencies *in our midst?


Those things would be a matter of opinion

Would the "lone wolf" be able to "tolerate" the angry villagers who dont like the guy who just minds his own business?


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## glazed (Aug 19, 2006)

lorichristie said:


> I believe long term hardship invokes women to expand their skills.


Boy howdy you can say that again.


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## TurnerHill (Jun 8, 2009)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's not what you said. You said it would be *you and YOUR friends*.
> 
> A "community" is EVERYONE
> 
> ...


Look, I've been pretty clear, in this thread and others, that I think this is a largely academic discussion, because I think that there is virtually no chance of a long-lasting societal breakdown of the sort so many here anticipate, many of them eagerly. But if you want to imagine this sort of future, I think you need a reality check.

Many survivalist types, which includes many who shun the word in favor of "prepper" or something similar, basically believe that the world after the fall would be divided into three basic groups:

1. The evil-doers, who alone or in groups will roam the world preying on those weaker than themselves. Also known here as zombies;

2. The frightened, directionless masses of insufficiently ant-like people, who will flee in terror, and who will need to be (and will be able to be) "moved along" from your farmyard gate at the point of a gun. Also known here (stupidly, IMO) as "sheep" or "sheeple";

3. The virtuous, well-preppared, ant-like "prepper", who will remain a stalwart protector of his family and farmstead, and only his family and his farmstead, while the first two groups battle it out.

Well, thousands of years of human history suggest that you are missing one group. Probably the largest.

If society melts down, there will be people, many of them, who have not "prepped." They will not have a garage full of toilet paper, or underground bunkers, or even a month's supply of canned goods. And yet, they will not join roving bands of bandits to steal, rape and murder. Neither will they mill about helplessly like sheep.

They will ask their neighbor to look after things a bit, and they will go down to the town center to see how they can help out. They will put out fires or fill sandbags if that is what is required. And they will provide for a minimum level of physical security if that is required. They may very well limit the ability of people from away to travel into the village, even if (maybe especially if) those travelers are trying to get to the home of Crazy Larry the anarchist, or Marlon the aggressive Bible-thumper. In other words, they will pull together, *as a community*,to do what needs to be done. And if the breakdown persists for any length of time, they will be unable to accept freeloader households who don't provide either a rifleman for the barricades, or dinner for those riflemen.

Things have played out in this fashion thousands of times, and would again.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Bearfootfarm,

Just look at it this way. Be grateful that TurnerHill doesn't live by you and isn't your problem to deal with. 

I figure with an attitude like his he is probably at the top of someone in his areas list to be dealt with out of hand. I don't mean that as an insult to him just pointing out that he seems to have a self rightous attitude and an inclination to want to impose himself on others.....and when someone quotes what he wrote he back pedals and claims a different meaning.

I'm sure we all misunderstood what he wrote. It's us not him.

Mike


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## TurnerHill (Jun 8, 2009)

Mike in Ohio said:


> Bearfootfarm,
> 
> Just look at it this way. Be grateful that TurnerHill doesn't live by you and isn't your problem to deal with.
> 
> ...


I would like to repeat what I said earlier, but it was deleted and I was warned.

So, Mike, I will simply suggest you read my posts more carefully. I have been entirely consistent. No back-peddling here.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Please do not attack each other, or be insulting. Those posts have a way of becoming the unseen.

Angie


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

TurnerHill said:


> I would like to repeat what I said earlier, but it was deleted and I was warned.
> 
> So, Mike, I will simply suggest you read my posts more carefully. I have been entirely consistent. No back-peddling here.



Absolutely consistent TurnerHill claims...... so let's look at his own words as typed by his own hand.....

Posted 12/29/09, 09:38 AM 



TurnerHill said:


> Well, that may not be so. If there is a social meltdown, my neighbors and I will no doubt work together. We have a long connection to this land, and have worked on it and hunted over it for generations. We all have the means to defend ourselves. We have skills that would be valuable.
> 
> Would we be able to tolerate the existence of heavily-armed lone-wolf survivalists of uncertain loyalties and anti-social tendencies in our midst? I don't think we would. You can fill in the rest for yourself.


Note that TurnerHill doesn't refer to not tolerating people who have actually done anything, only that they be of uncertain loyalties and have "anti-social tendencies". I present you with Mr. TurnerHill.... self appointed Judge, Jury and Executioner.

But in case we are unclear as to TurnerHills intent.....

Posted Yesterday, 10:07 AM 



TurnerHill said:


> That said, if it did happen and a nutjob was endangering my community, and by extension my family? Whether through his own paranoia, inablility to work with others, or excess of religious fervor? Scoped .30-06 from the treeline when he goes out for water, and he'll never know what hit him.


Notice how it went from "We" to "I". In other words not even a group decision, it is TurnerHills decision as to whether you are allowed to live or should be put down cause he doesn't like how you might think.

Posted Yesterday, 12:54 PM 



TurnerHill said:


> They sure better not be working at cross-purposes.


You betchya. If a person doesn't toe TurnerHills line sumtin bad gonna happen to them... yessiree bob!

And from the same post we have this tidbit....



TurnerHill said:


> .....or refuse to participate in the common defense.


So all you Amish and Mennonites appear to be on TurnerHills list as well.... you horrible pacifists you!

And he finishes up his post with...



TurnerHill said:


> Lone wolves die alone. And a wolf pack doesn't allow lone wolves in it's territory.


So Mr. TurnerHill has hisself his own little wolfpack and you all better not pee in his territory or else. Everybody clear on that?


Let's move on to Mr. TurnerHills next post....

Posted Today, 12:50 AM 



TurnerHill said:


> Your right to be left alone to do whatever you darn well please, without regard for your community, is a right afforded to you by our Constitution and the time of plenty in which we live.


Slightly after that he writes:



TurnerHill said:


> And no lone wolves, unless they demonstrate themselves to be harmless.



So Mr. TurnerHill gets to decide when your rights (including the right to be left alone) are rescinded. Times get rough and he is going to be the decider! And you better prove to him you are harmless... OR ELSE!

So now we get to where Mr. TurnerHill does a little back pedaling and starts talking about "the community" (I picture him singing Kumbaya and hugging his gun toting prepping neighbor as he writes)

In responding to BearFootFarm he writes:

Posted Today, 09:04 AM 



TurnerHill said:


> A community is everyone, but communities do not operate by demanding unanimity before a decision can be made. Subsistence villages are not Constitutional Republics, carefully enshrining the rights of minorities. Even the right to simply, "be left alone." At the very least, villagers have always been required to contribute to the common defense. Common defense, not just the defense of their own farmstead. If history shows us nothing else, it shows that those who do not participate directly in the common defense are required to provide sustenance to those that do.


Phrased so much more thoughtfully and nicely but Mr. TurnerHill is still on that same track of being the decider. He gets to decide who the community is and is going to force a person to go along (or thinks he is going to).

Mr. TurnerHill seems to have forgotten that the saying "Don't Tread on Me" predates the Constitution of the United States which Mr. TurnerHill doesn't seem to think very highly of.

I leave it to all of the readers to decide for themselves whether Mr. TurnerHill is someone they would trust as their neighbor if times ever got hard or whether he might be exactly the kind of threat that he goes on about. What would be the risk of Mr. TurnerHill deciding you might be a risk or a problem and using that .30-06 of his on you from the treeline?

Personally I'm glad that folks in my area are more tolerant of folks in general although many of us get a might tetchy about trespassers and poachers. Even someone like Mr. TurnerHill might be tolerated for a bit.... until he started trying to act out his fantasy of being the decider. 

Yes Mr. TurnerHill, I have read what you have written with all the due care it deserves. Your own words make it clear who and what you are. 

Please don't send me anymore PMs. I normally would refrain from quoting them publicly but I am serving prior notice that in your case I will post them publicly.

Mike


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## TurnerHill (Jun 8, 2009)

Oh my God, posted publicly! How ever will I survive? LOL

Fine, go ahead and pretend that you will be left alone with hoards of goods, while refusing to participate in the common defense, and gathering your, "like-minded" bretheren to yourself.

I am sure that if society ends, people will behave differently than they have every other time a society has collapsed. Sure they will. Uh-huh. Keep believing that.

This is stupid anyway. Society isn't ending, and your heirs are going to be trying to figure out what to do with a barn full of toilet paper.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

At the risk of Angie getting tired and shutting down the thread:

1) It would appear that if you can't insult me publicly you will run for the PM route of "tweaking" me. My statement wasn't a threat nor did it imply that you would be harmed. I see no purpose in carrying on a "conversation" where part is in public and part is in private. If you have something to say then say it in public and phrase it in a way that is acceptable to the moderators. Common practice is not to post PMs in public. That is the only reason for my public statement.

2) Preparing for the common defense doesn't mean setting oneself up as the decider of whose thoughts are pure such as you have indicated in your posts that you plan on doing. I figure folks around me will find a balance when it comes to cooperating. The key word is cooperating. 

3) Around here people are smart enough to figure out how to use leaves and avoid the poison ivy. Guess you will have to appropriate your TP from some other place.

4) Society may or may not end in my lifetime. You apparently believe that society will go on forever without any disruption. But having claimed to not have considered the possibility you sure do go on pretty long winded about what you would do in the event that society is disrupted. Gotta scratch my head on that one.

I can't find a single example of a society that has gone on indefinately. Each person finds their own comfort level and capacity in preparing for various events. Each person should accept that there are consequences to their choices. You claim to prepare not at all for a possibility you deny. I undertake certain efforts recognizing that while the potential for the event may be small in any given (annual) timeframe, the potential consequences are significant.

Your choices seem to be predicated on enforcing your will on others. My approach is to ensure that others are unlikely to be able to force themselves upon me and those around me. Only time and circumstances will tell which approach works better.

I wish you the luck you deserve in your undertakings and express my gratitude that you are distant from me.

Mike


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## TurnerHill (Jun 8, 2009)

Mike in Ohio said:


> express my gratitude that you are distant from me.
> 
> Mike


Ditto.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

May I suggest that Mike and TurnerHill put each other on ignore for a bit.
This will make the offending party rather invisible, and PM's will not get through for annoyance factor.

Angie


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Let me get this straight 
Mike your saying that if


> a nutjob was endangering my community, and by extension my family?


that you would not take any action ? 

After all your condemning Turner hill for what many here have already stated , they they would defend their families if the need arises .

so where exactly is the line drawn


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Anybody got some aspirin? :nana:


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> Anybody got some aspirin? :nana:


sure you dont want a motrin or maybe a darvicet with a stiff bourbon chaser


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Maybe Rum - but don't tell Wisconsin Ann or Rose2005. I hear they put it in their tea. (or the chocolate rum balls someone is passing around at work!)


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

PyroDon said:


> Let me get this straight
> Mike your saying that if
> 
> 
> ...


TurnerHill is drawing the line that if someone doesn't agree to work with him in the way that HE says they should work with them that he is going to whack them with a .30-06 from a treeline (his words not mine). Don't provide food then HE is going to force you to (or kill you).

That is a bit different than taking action against someone who represents a direct threat. In my mind, what he is talking about is offense not defense (although he might be of a mind that the best defense is a good offense).

If a person wants to be left alone then I have no problem leaving them alone. Not to say that I will necessarily act in their defense if they are isolationist - depends on the circumstance. If our Amish neighbors are pacifist that is their choice. If they choose to help support others that is their choice and if they choose not to that is also their choice. Wrap up forcing people to "donate" food and supplies in pretty words and it is still theft.

What TurnerHill is describing as his thinking is certainly not cooperation among neighbors.... it is coercion where the stronger subgroup subjugates the rest of the folks through force and intimidation. And remember, the only person we have heard saying that TurnerHill should be the decider is..... Turnerhill. All of his disclaimers to the contrary, I would classify his posts as doomer porn.

With apologies to all who would set themselves up as petty tyrants, that's just not my style and I don't take kindly to that sort of attitude.

That's not to say that if someone represents a direct threat to me and mine I won't take action. That is a lot different from what he is describing.

Mike


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

You shouldn't be drinking that bourbon or rum. It might affect your aim if those crazy neighbors start acting nutty.

:duel:


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Mike, you feel the way many of us do, but we're just not really going to discuss it publicly. There were a couple of posts in this thread that I shook my head at, but I just decline to participate with people whose version of fun is arguing about stuff they know little about on the internet.

My advice to you is to say what you want to say and then move on. You can make your point in one post and then don't worry about the rebuttal from the other guy. The observers can decide for themselves which argument is the valid one.


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Mike in Ohio said:


> You shouldn't be drinking that bourbon or rum. It might affect your aim if those crazy neighbors start acting nutty.
> 
> :duel:


I KNEW there was a hole in my thinking.... 

guess I'll just have to :viking:


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

No offense Mike but I think your reading more into what was said than what was intended .

The sad fact is that any time there are hard times communities become more defensive and tend to run out siders or loan wolf types off . 
In the depression it was common for the fine upstanding business men of the area to band together and burn hobo camps as well as knock heads . 
They develope a pack mentality or become what some would describe as clanish. those that dont fit in are driven out just as a weakened dog is driven from the pack. 
As humans we like to think we have more compassion than animals and will in good times lend assistance . But in bad times families and communities tend to become very territorial and less inclined to tolerate .


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> Maybe Rum - but don't tell Wisconsin Ann or Rose2005. I hear they put it in their tea. (or the chocolate rum balls someone is passing around at work!)


Ive still got some bourbon balls left over from Christmas under lock and key,
I'll share with you. (have to keep them locked up or the youngest will get snockered thinking they are just candy


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

PyroDon said:


> Ive still got some bourbon balls left over from Christmas under lock and key,
> I'll share with you. (have to keep them locked up or the youngest will get snockered thinking they are just candy


I'll take two and not call you in the morning - Thanks!


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

PyroDon said:


> No offense Mike but I think your reading more into what was said than what was intended.QUOTE]
> 
> No offense taken.
> 
> ...


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Mike and Ernie, 2012.

I think Mike sees clearly enough........and I prefer Ernie's approach to dealing with antagonistics.

Angie, I hear that a long, deep, hot bath does wonders for the nerves.


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## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Forerunner,

Great minds think alike. After dinner I'm going to steep myself in the clawfoot tub and indulge in a couple fingers of rum, a large glass of water and some orange slices.

Mike


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## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Couple shots of whiskey and the recliner by the wood stove for me tonight.

Tomorrow I think I'll get out and see about cooperating with some neighbors.:bouncy:


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Forerunner said:


> Couple shots of whiskey and the recliner by the wood stove for me tonight.
> 
> Tomorrow I think I'll get out and see about cooperating with some neighbors.:bouncy:


Timothy - I knew you were a WISE gentleman!

Have a great evening and enjoy cooperating tomorrow.


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## ACountryMomma (Aug 10, 2008)

I would like that chocolate rum ball recipe to make for my neighbors... (yet another step in building good relations in the local community)

Seriously - PM me with any and all recipes... Chocolate rum balls sound lovely! (I would like them too)


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I don't have that recipe. Boss had the rum balls from a friend. Family recipe, etc.

Angie


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> No offense Mike but I think your reading more into what was said than what was intended .
> 
> The sad fact is that any time there are hard times communities become more defensive and tend to *run out siders or loan wolf types off *.


LOL You say one thing in the first sentence, and the opposite in the second

We all understood exactly what he ( and you) are saying


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

ACountryMomma said:


> I would like that chocolate rum ball recipe to make for my neighbors... (yet another step in building good relations in the local community)
> 
> Seriously - PM me with any and all recipes... Chocolate rum balls sound lovely! (I would like them too)


I can likely get you a recipe for various liquor balls 
My mom uses bourbon,rum, irish cream, and various other variations
with the same basic recipe.
hers use vanilla wafers crushed and ground nuts .


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

That would be great Don.

You can post it on this thread, or start a new one - just good stuff!


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## Joel_BC (Nov 10, 2009)

Ordinarily, I think we let old threads (like 'sleeping dogs') lie. Pardon me for reviving this thread, but I believe current events (Japan) are demonstrating the relevance of the question in my OP that started the thread.

In the face of a catastrophe the likes of which few of us on this board have lived through, the Japanese are showing their ability to rally - to be kind and helpful to one another, to grip up, and - so far - to cooperate.

They're mostly now a "modern" population of industrial-system (and "post-industrial") workers, not predominantly farmers, certainly not back-to-the-landers.

I've read enough and heard enough to know that a lot of racists, sixty years ago, would have put them down. I think times have changed a lot in that regard. The Japanese are showing the kind of gumption and fortitude that I think most of us can really admire. And, quite apart from the role of their governmental emergency agencies, the ordinary people seem to be doing things in a cooperative manner.

What say?


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

PyroDon said:


> sure you dont want a motrin or maybe a darvicet with a stiff bourbon chaser


I could go for a bourbon!


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## whiskeylivewire (May 27, 2009)

I'll take a shot of Jameson, thanks. I have a cold and I'm sure it would loosen it up...but only a shot! I haven't drank alcohol in 2 years...I'll probably get loopy over the shot!

Now seriously...My DH and I were just talking about this type of thing today. My basic question was...we always help out those in need ie Japan, Haiti...who will come help us if we have a major calamity? DH said no one...we already had the calamity with Katrina. 

Our neighbors to the south are my in-laws..so we would band together fine. Neighbors to the east would be okay and those to the west are like minded individuals. Now, the neighbors to the north don't like us much. Apparently, barking **** dogs are interrupting their "peaceful" country retirement. DH told them to keep their horses quiet and our dogs won't bark


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## Wags (Jun 2, 2002)

Newest neighbors can't be bothered to even return a wave - and they called animal control on us for having a "dangerous dog" because they didn't like us having pit bulls. (Our dogs do not roam or make trouble!) The dogs licked the responding deputy and he wrote the neighbors off as "odd". The other neighbors are friendly and we have a good relationship with them, but they are elderly and in poor health. We do have friends in town and our place is the meet up spot in a SHTF situation.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Well, depending what might happen, "neighbors" might be non-existent for us. During the 1993 flooding, we were the only ones who stayed in our home for miles around. Our neighbors are a mile away from us in 3 directions, and a lot farther than that on the 4th side. So we all have options, not like a cul de sac or something. We know and are on good terms with all of the "one milers", but not all buddy-buddy. I think our neighbor situation is one of the best parts about where we live.


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## manygoatsnmore (Feb 12, 2005)

Joel, I'm glad to see you revive the thread - I'd forgotten I'd even posted on it. And I missed the whole Mike vs TurnerHill contretemps.  I'm surprised Angie didn't lock the thread, lol.


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