# Alternatives for backup power supply



## Ninn (Oct 28, 2006)

Good afternoon, group. My DH and I live in a trailer park and are beginning homesteaders. The plan was to cut expenses and become as self sufficient as possible so as to truly enjoy living on a single income and caring for our family. Our trailer was made in 1972, so I will tell you now, moving it out of this park is not likely to ever be an option. Over the next year or so, we will be rebuilding, rewiring and thoroughly insulating this place from top to bottom. It is heated with an oil burning, forced hot air furnace, brand new but at the lower end of the efficiency scale. The brand new, more efficient hot water heater is electric. We run 2 tvs and 2 computers, a coffee maker and microwave, as well as the blower on the furnace ,fridge, washer, dryer, and all the houeshold lights on electric. What we are wondering is what type of backup system would be best. We experience power outages here frequently. Since it is a trailer park, we cannot have a woodstove. (this upset me greatly, as I was looking forward to my li'l house heater). We currently have oil lamps for lighting and are purchasing a kerosene heater for backup heat. Since this place is so darned drafty right now, ventilation will not be an issue this winter.......lol. I have considered a gasoline powered generator. However, I am concerned about noise issues and the possibility of theft. Are the newer models relatively quiet? Are they heavy enough to prevent teenagers from taking off with it? How hard is it to tie into my existing power ? Are they efficient and safe? What other alternatives are out there? Ultimately, we would like to convert the whole house to solar heating and cooling. To that end, we will be replacing our roof this summer with one that hangs over all sides by 1 foot, and including a rainwater harvest system for the garden. (this should alleviate the drain on the park well, which is forced to pump water up hill-don't ask me, i didn't build the place-i would have put it at the top.)We already know that whatever choice we make, someone is going to complain while we are either installing it or using it or both. Can you imagine us being the only trailer with lights and heat when the power goes out? This happens several times a year, so I would like to be prepared. The water pump burns out so much that we have a 5 day supply of water for each person as well as the dog already. Can we install a second hot water tank just for water storage? Can it be tied in to our existing system to heat in the newer heater? I know, I have alot of questions. Sorry if I am overwhelming everyone. Just smack me on the head and tell me to slow down. Sometimes I get carried away. Any advice is welcome. Thank you.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

Side issues - water pushes uphill a lot better than a pump can suck it up the hill. Not sure what your problem is with the uphill pipe... Water storeage, you are looking to use an old non-funtioning water heater as a storage tank before the good water heater - sure that can be done you need to drain water out the bottom of the tank to access it of course..... Lower efficiency furnace was a mistake if you are planning to stay here more than 5 years.....

For the power backup issue:

Ok, as I read your message, you want it real cheap because you don't have any extra $$$, and you want it real quiet so it doesn't upset the neighbors, and you want it thieft proof because you aren't in the best neighborhood.

Whew.

Legally you need a special interlocking power switch on your main breaker box to disconnect the power grid all the time when you tie in your home generator. Some people ignore this, and say they will always remember to do it without the interlocking switch, and just plug it into a drier plug to back-feed. Ok, whatever, those are your decisions. Feeding power back into the whole trailer park if you forget - oy..... Some folks have made their own switch, but a new one you buy is going to be $200 or more. This is if you want your backup to power the whole trailer.

A trailer typically takes 40-50 amps to power everything. That is a 25 hp or so engine, either gasoline, diesel, or natural/propane gas. You will spend $5,000+ to get a good one set up that is quiet. Some come on by themselves when needed, etc. I suspect you are not going to get into that.

What you will go with is a $4-500 gasoline powered unit with 2 plug ins, and you will run an extension cord to your furnace. Forget about the rest of the stuff, you need heat & water to live on. Perhaps plug in the refrig every 12 hours if you have a real long outage. You don't need the interlocking switch, because you are not powering the whole house, just one or possibly 2 items at a time with extension cords. It will basically supply as much power as one outlet in your house, so you can divy up that outlet to a couple items, as long as you don't do too much at one time.

These gas units can be cheap, $400 or so, and have a noisy, cheap, not so good engine. Or they can be $1500-2500 and have a good, very quiet engine on them, electric start, etc.

Your choice. Kinda get what you pay for here.

Folks who want to steal will find a way to walk off with anything. The big $10,000 unit would be hard to take. Any of the small 5000 watt units are small enough for one determined kid to lug off.

I've gone from the rediculously top notch to the too cheap. You need to sit down & figure out what you really need to power, how many amps those items take, and then decide what quality of unit you need.

You'll have to spend $500 for a cheapie, and you should spend $1500+ for a good unit esp with the noise issue as you mention.

You'll need to secure it somehow.

Now, let the discussion begin on how stupid my ideas are. 

--->Paul


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Now, let the discussion begin on how stupid my ideas are.

--->Paul
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Sorry,sounds reasonable to me.

BooBoo


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

There really is no discussion on what Rambler posted.
Good thoughts.

I'd like to add;
I think you would be a good candidate for;
Kohler G-10ERG propane generator.
10kw---will handle most of your stated load.
Its quiet.
Has its own *dog house* cover over it.
locked down on its own concrete pad.

Check it out at; www.backwoodssolar.com
pg. 86 current catologe

Oh ya . . .the price is only . . . .$9485

you add the transfer switch, installation, and concrete.

It will do the job.

Should you decide to go with the $400 dollar cheapie, . .reread Rambler's comments above . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


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## dirtundernails (Nov 20, 2006)

Agree. $500 gets you a generator that might not start when you really need it, won't last, is noisy, and portable (easy to steal.) Expect those low end gas generators to last less than 500 hours. Thats a buck an hour, PLUS gas... They must be well maintained, and test run every month and gas kept fresh... If not, then trying to get the thing started will give you something to do till the power comes back on. 

Do you, perchance have a small diesel tractor with a PTO? If so blessed, get thee a PTO generator, and build a concrete pad and dog house. Power gores off, back the tractor up, connect and fire it up. 

If you only need a few hundred watts, then there is another suggestion. You get an inverter for your auto, and use that. Fast, easy and portable. Emergency short term power for a few bucks. 

Lastly, if your handy, get a generator head (1800 rpm 4 pole type ) of the appropriate size, and scanvenge a small diesel from a tractor or old auto, or whatever, and hook it all up.

Hubby of Dun.


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## Ninn (Oct 28, 2006)

OK, lots of good information here. However, you all are assuming I have ANY idea what you are talking about as far as watts, units, pto's etc. Please dumb it down for a total newbie. 

The plan for this year will probably be for a generator under 1000 dollars, with savings plans in place to eventually get a really good, quiet one. At some point in the future, we want to build our own home on our own land, so we will need it then anyway. May as well get the best we can afford and avoid replacing it later, right? 

Remember, dumb it down so I can explain it again later without sounding like I've lost my mind please. Thank you.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

The responses above were to what you posted that your "load" is . . . . .your asking alot from a small gennie. And the electric water heat is another no no.
Watts; a unit of electrical measurement for the amount of power a device uses.
Think about a *100* watt light bulb.
Now a dimmer *50* watt light bulb . . . which uses 1/2 the power.
Adding up all the things you first listed amounts to a bunch of power.

Typical hot water heater elements use 4500 watts.
If you run the cheapie 5000 watt gennie to "heat your water" theres so very little left to run anything else.
BUT . . . .running the cheapie that heavey (4500) will defently cause it to fail Very soon.

The cheapie's have very poor voltage regulation.
If you choose to run your puters on the cheapie . . . . .good luck . . . . .don't say you haven't been warned.

If you can double that $1000 then you can get a reasonable gennie that will run most all of your stuff . . . . . but NOT the water heater.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Heat and water like Paul said. Actually everyone has great advice, we run our generators at least once a month, if not two or three times in the cold months. You already have water, and while i wouldn't add another working water heater, sure you can plumb in another tank in series before the heated tank so the water stays fresh. So what does your furnace need. Burner motor and fan motor, neither will be big draws running both could be on start up. You also have a tiny draw for the thermostat, and either a transformer or an ignitor to account for. The transformer draws 300 watts an ignitor draws 30 watts. Quite a difference. Being a cheaper furnace count on the transformer being installed but you could have it swapped out for an ignitor. ($150 installed unless the guy has to drive for quite a while to get to you) A 2500 watt generator should start and run your furnace either way. If the burner had a PSC motor and an ignitor you might get away with a smaller generator. So a 5000 watt generator is twice as big as that one load, so you'll have ample to run lights and refrigerators/freezers, but if you share the duty then a 2500-3000 watt generator would squeek you through. My point is a 2500 watt generator might come in better quality for the price, but shop carefully. I've seen virtually the same cheap generator selling for $250 in Walmart sell for $400 in a local farm store and $600 just down the street. Look for Honda but you'll need more than $1000, just to get the smaller generator.


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

putting on my nomex
Ok first off in a 72 trailor a forced air oil burner was likely not the best choice .
Especially if you know the area has frequent power outages . A simple deerborne or warm morning propane would have been a much better choice and likely just as efficient if not more so . I say this because in our old 70 trailor we went fron an 80,000btu force air unit to a 65,000 btu deerborne (with the optional blower) and cut our heating bill by a third . a very large advantage is that even when the powers out the stove still works . 
An alternative would be to install a second gas waterheater and install a simple radiant floor heating system using a 12 volt pump . Gas water heaters require no eletric to work after all.
For back up lighting and possibly even a radio. the first thing to do is change out all the lites to CFs and put them all on their own cercuits. these circiuts are ran to a surplus computer UPS , granted mine is currently only set up to provide two hours at full draw but a future battery bank will extend that . you could also put in a 12 volt aux wire and use leds to provide emergancy lighting. 
your first order of business is to reduce the total power you normally use .
you failed to meantion a fridge which will draw 600 watts and over 1200 on start up, the start up on your furnace fan is likely 1500 watts 
the single tv is another 300 computor about the same (these are gerneralizations) lights (standard 60 watt bulbs) there another 300 watts 
eletric water heater 5000watts it adds up quick.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Ross makes a good point.
wally fart has a proven track record of demanding from there suppliers lower prices.
So-------that gennie thats sitting on the floor at wallys looks the same as the one down the street. . . . .But you can bet that its a *special* edition made just for wallys.
Now then are you prepared to gamble your money on that unit verses the other one . .?
---What--corners did the mano take to cut down the price to meet "wallys" demands . . . . . .those units are allready the bottom of the line on quality.

How do you say it in Latin...

. . . .Buyer beware . . . . .


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## Ninn (Oct 28, 2006)

I think I have alot of work to do before any of this makes sense. As for the furnace, I had no choice but to replace what was here with another of the same type. We live in a trailer park, so my preferred choice of wood heat is not available. We got aid from the state for part of the replacement fees based on our income level, so we had to put in what they required. We keep it set at 65 and wear sweaters. Our share of the expenses was less than 800 bux.

I can't wait to get out of here already, and we just moved in.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Well yes Wally products are unique too. But even so you can't just buy on price. even the similar generator for 3Xthe price isn't that much better. You really need to go with brand power if it's all you have. Now I just bought a China diesel 5000 watt generator, but it's not my only one either. I've seen some of these china diesels that have hit over 2000 hrs of rough use so i was suitably impressed. (powering a welder in the field) There are occasional surprises in cheap equipment. Funny the actual generator on the china diesel is identical looking to the one on my Honda 5000 EX. It was risky to buy the china version but I have the Honda and 2 italian built B+S power 2500 watt generators too. If I was only to have one it would be the Honda, I only bought the Diesel because I keep hundreds of litres of diesel on hand, and neighbors have torture tested theirs. It's Kubota Orange to make buyers feel better.  If I was smart I'd have bought a PTO generator but I never get comfortable about ones I can afford.  Plus I like having some redundancy in my capabilities.


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## Runners (Nov 6, 2003)

Ninn said:


> The plan for this year will probably be for a generator under 1000 dollars, with savings plans in place to eventually get a really good, quiet one. At some point in the future, we want to build our own home on our own land, so we will need it then anyway. May as well get the best we can afford and avoid replacing it later, right?


Don't buy JUNK, when really GOOD used equipment can be had for the same or less.

I have 3 Generators - the 5kw (5000 watts) Coleman extended run - a 10kw 1972 Dayton with automatic transfer switch, auto start, and a 15kw Generac, 1800rpm, 4 cylinder, water cooled. The 10KW is running 100% of the lighting, outlets, furnace, fridges, freezers, well pump AND the electric water heater - all off of Propane. Does it load it all down - YEP!!! It would be impossible to add the electric stove - so does that give you something for size comparison? Being it's propane, we don't have to worry about Gasoline going bad, or someone stealing gas or the generator. It weighs over 600lbs.

If I switched to the 15kw, I could run everything we have in our 1700 sq ft house & basement, no problem.

Here's _HOW I got these units... CHEAP!_ 
Call your local Generac or Kohler or Onan dealer - and tell them your plight. Ask if they got a USED (but still good) unit, a "pull out" from someone that upgraded to a larger unit. Chances are, they've got several units on hand, paid the original owner a few $$ for the trade-in and they've already made their $$ on the new sale.

I spent $600 for the 10kw unit with the automatic transfer switch (40hrs run time), and $700 for the newer 15kw unit that had a whopping 50hrs of run time. Both were serviced commercially, and came with service records of oil & filter changes - so I knew what I saw on the outside was not indicative of what was on the inside. The deals are out there, start looking someone else besides the big box stores.

2 years ago, I pulled a 155kw natural gas unit, with a 454 chevy engine out of a site, because mice had chewed up the windings on the generator. Not even 100hrs, but about $4000 to replace the field and stator windings from Generac. We GAVE AWAY the whole thing to the first guy that would remove it. The unit was installed in 1999.

As far as NOISE - you can easily make a muffler out of an old 20 gal LP tank - those things that we see all over the place on BBQ grills, that had to be replaced because they had the "wrong" valve or weren't worth getting re-tested. Just 2 pieces of pipe, a hole saw & weld it up. (drill a hole, fill with water & drain before welding) The thing is so quiet, the engine vibrating makes more noise than the exhaust. The trick is to force the exhaust gasses to 'change direction' as many times as possible - this reduces the noise. For the generator, just build a dog house out of plywood and INSULATE it (for noise and most important, HEAT). Use duct work to direct the air flow into the engine/generator from the outside, and then another piece to direct the hot air OUT of the dog house. It's been working good on that 10kw generator for 4 years. We can hear his 5kw genset run, he cant' hear our 10kw though.

Personally, I'd FORGET the PTO driven units. Precious tractor hours add up FAST running full throttle, and those tractors and PTO units don't have the voltage or frequency controls a REAL genset has. In other words, a PTO unit is more likely to burn out your well pump, furnace motors, washer, dryer, TV, etc., because the speed the generator turns isn't controlled very well. If the generator speed varies, so will the voltage & frequency.... lights bright & then dim, TV scan lines, motors draw more and then less amps, speeding up and down - none of this stuff is designed for "dirty power". If you get those neat little "twister flourscent bulbs" and have dirty power - they'll burn out quickly (like ours do - we're lucky to get a year and a half out of them).

Believe it or not, that old vintage 1970s 10kw genset I'm running was designed to be installed safely in a basement of a house. These units are out there, and chances are, they hardly got any use, but someone had a lucrative service contract to maintain them.... Best of all, you can get them for 10% of the original value, and wind up with nice features like auto-start, auto-transfer, propane powered, a hot water heater, (water cooled generator makes ALL the hot water you can use), and best of all - a big enough unit with serious regulation controls to maintain that 60hz, 120/240volts you're household equipment lives on.

Then, if you decide to go SOLAR or WIND or HYDRO - you'll have a reliable back up source of power - instead dragging some cheap 5000 watt, gasoline powered, noisy genset that says "steal me" to all the neighbors!

IMHO, don't waste your time with DIESEL (we have lots of them where I work), they're expensive to maintain, you _must_ turn the fuel over, and if it's cold, it won't start (unlike propane). I should add, practically any little gas generator CAN be converted to Propane or dual fuel with a kit.

After screwing around with all these generators over the years - the LAST thing I want it is the darn thing to keep me awake all night - or trying to get it running - or refilling it every 8hrs with GAS - or plugging in this and then switching to that appliance, etc., - when someone's got exactly what I _really want and they're happy to get rid of it - CHEAP!_  

BTW... if you want batteries, I still get them FREE - 35ah to 70ah, gell cells, 12 volt - really nice to put on those little UPSs to keep them running many hours instead of minutes. We have 5 inverters/UPSs in our house - some run chick incubators, some run the house lights, which sure beats kero lamps & flashlights. And, those 1400va UPSs can be found here and there, they really work great with lights, ceiling fans, computers, etc., when you replace the little batteries with something 10x or bigger.

_I can't ... imagine ... being found dead on the toilet, Countryside magazine in hand, kero lamp was just about out - gassed to death! Arrrgh!_ :baby04: ...in my case, it'd be Home Power magazine!


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

WOW good post runners.

Ninn, theres a bunch of good thoughts.

Ya I wouldn't mind stumbling on one of those 10k units.

Ross, Yup the Honda stuff and your 5000 EX are good equipment. Unfortunately the price tags scare people away . . . .to bad.

In this day and age it is indeed unfortunate that the places like wally farts have been such an influence toward causing the peoples(sheeples) attitude to be;

-----More cheaper is more better--------

wasn't it ole Ben F. who said some thing about . . . 
. . .penny wise. . . .pound foolish . .


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## mike3367 (Dec 15, 2004)

i plan on using htis head http://www.utterpower.com/ST.htm and probably mount it to this motor found here http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product2_6970_410747_410747. i think for the money should work nicely. plus i will have batteriers to store some of that energy. if i could id get a lister engine but they are way to big and heavy for me at this point and time


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## Runners (Nov 6, 2003)

mike3367 said:


> i plan on using htis head http://www.utterpower.com/ST.htm and probably mount it to this motor found here http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product2_6970_410747_410747. i think for the money should work nicely. plus i will have batteriers to store some of that energy. if i could id get a lister engine but they are way to big and heavy for me at this point and time


I think.... a package 10kw unit with all the controls built in looks more appealing to me.

If you can solve the governor problem to within 1hz, over the entire load range, you're doing really good!

BTW... I consider a 1800 rpm 4 pole alternator as 2x more sensitive to engine speed than a 3600 rpm 2 pole alternator. 

4 pole unit = 30rpms per 1hz (1800 rpm)
2 pole unit = 60rpms per 1hz (3600 rpm)

When you attach a load (pump starts), I think the 3600rpm mechanical governor will react quicker to open the throttle & to maintain your 60hz.

The voltage regulation problem ought to be pretty straight forward - but it's really nice to have both these controls tied into a working package than try to design & build it yourself.

Propane conversion kit - bi & tri fuel kits for small engines!
http://www.propanecarbs.com/small_engines.html

Good luck, I'd like to hear how it turns out!


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## CountryWannabe (May 31, 2004)

<<I can't wait to get out of here already, and we just moved in.>>


OK. I bet I am missing something major here. Do you own the trailer, or are you renting? I take it that the lot is small? If you are planning on moving any time very soon, I am not sure it will be worth your while spending very much. Old trailers do not get better with time, and the improvements you mention (solar roof, extra water tanks, etc) just strike me as money spent that could be put to better use (payment on a property of your own) 

Mary in OK


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## Ninn (Oct 28, 2006)

Unfortunately, we own this little nightmare. We plan to bring it up to code and improve the daylights out of it, then sell it to our oldest daughter. She is interested in the lifestyle changes we are making and is helping and learning alot. My BIL is also interested in buying it when we are ready. I just want it to be as efficient and inexpensive as possible while still retaining some reasonable level of indoor comfort. The lot is a decent size, the neighbors leave something to be desired. I have already had 3 complaints about my dog (who is licensed, utd on shots and consistently restrained in her own yard) doing damage to other tenants dogs when they have entered my yard. We are looking right now at about 5 years before we can get out of here. Then, we are so gone.


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## chuckhole (Mar 2, 2006)

As far as the questions go, my DW and I live in the city and see our country place only on weekends (130 miles away). We faced many of the same problems you have. We made many mistakes along the way and our biggest ones were putting good money into something that should have been scrapped for parts. The short term costs were lower but the longer term benefits just aren't there. One of the few things we did right was go propane wherever we could. Our stove, water heater and space heating is all propane. Our country place is really remote. We drive 3-1/2 miles of gravel roads to get to it and it is at a dead end. The power is always going out because of falling tree limbs and such. We have oil lamps for emergency lighting, so what is left for the electricity can easily be taken care of with a smaller generator. I believe we saved more money on being able to go to a smaller quality generator than the higher prices we paid for the propane appliances. And in the long run, propane is much more efficient than electric so you will save in electricity costs.

Runners, thanks for your excellent posts and the link to the propane conversions. That one hit my favorites.

I agree with CountryWannabe. Every dollar you spend on this trailer will only give you 10 cents in value when you have to sell it. Financially speaking, it is a bad invenstment. Do what you have to so you can live comfortably. If you find that you are living in a nightmare, do you really want to pass that on to your relatives?


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## strider3700 (Feb 2, 2007)

Runners said:


> As far as NOISE - you can easily make a muffler out of an old 20 gal LP tank - those things that we see all over the place on BBQ grills, that had to be replaced because they had the "wrong" valve or weren't worth getting re-tested. Just 2 pieces of pipe, a hole saw & weld it up. (drill a hole, fill with water & drain before welding)



Excellent post but this isn't safe. Propane can be absorbed into the metal of the tank and may outgas when heated. Fill the tank with water, cut the hole and then weld all with water in the tank. A bit messier and definitely a pain but no chance of an explosion.


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