# Welcome to a dictatorship run nation



## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

With the stroke of a pen we became a nation run by a dictator. He bypassed Congress and the constitution to do so. Our only hope is a Republican challenge to the Supreme Court. Sad day indeed. 5 million more votes secured for the party of destruction.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Vahomesteaders said:


> With the stroke of a pen we became a nation run by a dictator. He bypassed Congress and the constitution to do so. Our only hope is a Republican challenge to the Supreme Court. Sad day indeed. 5 million more votes secured for the party of destruction.


Hey, his lawyer said it was legal. Isn't that the standard that's been set?


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Who cares WHAT Obama's lawyer says. ~! Obama has been going against the constitution for so long that any lawyer in Obamas hip pocket will agree with him.
And then there is 25 to 30 tapes that ANYBODY can find Obama says it IS ILLEGAL FOR HIM TO DO--- Just what he did tonight~! Guess that doesn't count eh?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

arabian knight said:


> Who cares WHAT Obama's lawyer says. ~! Obama has been going against the constitution for so long that any lawyer in Obamas hip pocket will agree with him.
> And then there is 25 to 30 tapes that ANYBODY can find Obama says it IS ILLEGAL FOR HIM TO DO--- Just what he did tonight~! Guess that doesn't count eh?


As I recall, a previous president's lawyer said it was OK to torture. That seemed to fly just fine, and set one heck of a precedent.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I missed the news. What did he do?


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

He just made all illegal immigrants legal.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Vahomesteaders said:


> He just made all illegal immigrants legal.


I don't like what he did, but that's not a fair characterization. He ordered that certain illegal immigrants not be deported and could qualify for work permits.

Even if it proves legal, the next President can cancel the Executive Order (although unlikely the next President would have the guts to do so). 

The thing is, this is just the 1st step. There are another 6 million or so that will be given safe haven before this is over. Plus there is also the likelihood that Obama will issue a blanket pardon which is completely Constitutional.


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

The illegals here in Az aren't happy with him or his plan. I would also bet that once the illegals are legal, the majority will vote republican, not democratic.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Vahomesteaders said:


> He just made all illegal immigrants legal.


Not exactly. He's just not going to deport parents of American citizens who have been here for 5 years or more. But he not going to issue them green cards or give them citizenship.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Nevada said:


> As I recall, a previous president's lawyer said it was OK to torture. That seemed to fly just fine, and set one heck of a precedent.


Give it a break! You embarass yourself. Our Constituation is being destroyed and you play some sophmoric tit for tat game. Hitler would have loved you.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Hey, his lawyer said it was legal. Isn't that the standard that's been set?


Educate yourself, this has NEVER been done, no precedent, this is illegal, totally against the Constitution.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> As I recall, a previous president's lawyer said it was OK to torture. That seemed to fly just fine, and set one heck of a precedent.


That's b/c waterboarding as the navy seals do to each other in training, is NOT torture. Go to YOUR party who OK'ed it all.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

MoonRiver said:


> I don't like what he did, but that's not a fair characterization. He ordered that certain illegal immigrants not be deported and could qualify for work permits.
> 
> Even if it proves legal, the next President can cancel the Executive Order (although unlikely the next President would have the guts to do so).
> 
> The thing is, this is just the 1st step. There are another 6 million or so that will be given safe haven before this is over. Plus there is also the likelihood that Obama will issue a blanket pardon which is completely Constitutional.


He cannot make laws. Cannot. He cannot change the saws that say illegals cannot work here. He cannot say that employers can hire them. He is NOT king.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I read his speech to my wife last night... Man it is amazing when you see the words, instead of just hear them.. 

I love how he says "we're a nation of laws" but yet he talks about the "criminals" that will be sent back, but the "hard working" families will be given a chance to "get right with the law"

What does he not understand about ANYONE that is here illegally is a "criminal"? Just because they came here to work and not break laws, they still have, just by being here.....

I'm sick of him picking and choosing what laws to enforce or not... Especially when the ones he decides not to enforce are damaging our country.. .

OH.. one place I really got riled up about in his speech, was when he said "our" families go back for generations here in the US.... Sooooo...He's not even from here.... LIAR!


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> Not exactly. He's just not going to deport parents of American citizens who have been here for 5 years or more. But he not going to issue them green cards or give them citizenship.


So he's gonna give 'em 'blue' cards instead? He's gonna make it 'legal' for illegals to WORK. He cannot. HE cannot make laws. Do you get this?


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I wanna know what the requisite is for someone that snuck into the country, to be able to prove they've been here 5 years or more..

OH, and again, about sending criminals back, if someone has been here for 5 years and working under the table, then they haven't paid taxes for those 5 years... In the USA, not paying your taxes is a SERIOUS crime that WILL get you arrested... Just ask Wesly Snipes, Willie Nelson, Martha Stewart... 

OH, but if you are someone like Al Sharpton, and don't pay your taxes, we can look the other way... You know, since they do such good work bringing the people together..


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

and we he just realeased 5 more gitmo prisoners, Come ON IN!


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

I just struck on a PERFECT plan.. 

Obama says there is no way it's possible to be able to send 5 million people back to their home countries they came from... We don't have the man power or the resources.. .

SO, as retaliation to his new EO, we all stop paying taxes for 5 years... The amount of time he's giving to illegals who didn't pay taxes for those 5 years 

The government won't have the resources to arrest all of us.. Maybe then they will see the errors of their ways..


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## DAVID In Wisconsin (Dec 3, 2002)

The Muslim in chief has sold the US taxpayer out, once again. The man must be looking to start a civil uprising against him and the government.


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## trulytricia (Oct 11, 2002)

All the rich, the powerful, the elites of the world are cracking out the champagne bottles. Especially the ones south of our border. They don't need to worry about making reforms or sharing their nations wealth. BO has insured them a safety valve and provided them with millions of slaves, the American citizens.


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## MoonRiver (Sep 2, 2007)

Tricky Grama said:


> He cannot make laws. Cannot. He cannot change the saws that say illegals cannot work here. He cannot say that employers can hire them. He is NOT king.


As I understand it, he can use prosecutorial discretion to avoid deporting illegal immigrants. I think that is a stretch, but unlikely the courts would take it on.

The work permits are likely unConstitutional as that is a role of Congress. Again, he can use prosecutorial discretion to refuse to prosecute employers hiring illegal aliens.

What he is doing is making a decision that during his administration, this is how the Justice Department will conduct business. He is making it sound like it is the law, but it is not. 

It could be compared to a city or state deciding they will not arrest anyone for possession of less than 4 oz of marijuana. They are not making the possession of marijuana legal, just using executive authority to not arrest and not prosecute.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgTPH5y1-ZI[/ame]


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Not exactly. He's just not going to deport parents of American citizens who have been here for 5 years or more. But he not going to issue them green cards or give them citizenship.


Yay!!!!! It is all for the families!!!!!

And how do you think those "American citizens" became citizens? They are the result of illegal aliens illegally coming to the U.S. (which is a criminal act) and then having a child born on U.S. soil. That child becomes a U.S. citizen by "right of soil", sometimes referred to as an "anchor baby". That is one of the lamest excuses for offering citizenship that I have ever heard of and should be stricken from the books. 

And before you get your knickers in a knot I have U.S. citizenship by "right of soil" and never really understood why. I was accidentally born in the U.S. one and a half months premature (I guess I was claustrophobic). My parents never intended for that to happen.

I am not cold-hearted, but there is a right way to do something and many wrong ways to do the same thing. Enter a country legally and go through the system as it is presently configured and you are welcome. Enter illegally, avoid and/or circumvent the system and all I can say is "Adios!", "Wiedersehen!", etc.


TRellis


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Note only Congress has the authority to enact law, any enactment of law by the Judiciary or the Executive office is in Excess of Jurisdiction: Article I, Section 1. &#8220;All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.&#8221; 

18 U.S.C. Section 1. &#8220;Whenever a judge acts where he/she does not have jurisdiction to act, the judge is engaged in an act or acts of treason.&#8221; U.S. v. Will, 449 U.S. 200, 216, 101 S.Ct. 471, 66 .Ed.2d 392, 406 (1980); Cohens v. Virginia, 19 U.S. (6 Wheat) 264, 404, 5 L.Ed 257 (1821) 

&#8220;Any judge or attorney who does not report such judges for treason as required by law may themselves be guilty of misprison of treason,&#8221; 18 U.S.C. Section 2382. 

"Obviously a judgment, though final and on the merits, has no binding force and is subject to collateral attack if it is wholly void for lack of jurisdiction of the subject matter or person, and perhaps for excess of jurisdiction, or where it is obtained by extrinsic fraud. [Citations.]" (7 Witkin, Cal. Procedure, supra, Judgment, Â§ 286, p. 828.).


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## Crisste (Nov 17, 2014)

Vahomesteaders said:


> With the stroke of a pen we became a nation run by a dictator. He bypassed Congress and the constitution to do so. Our only hope is a Republican challenge to the Supreme Court. Sad day indeed. 5 million more votes secured for the party of destruction.


Yup.. Presidents have a way of getting things done. 

George Bush (Republican) declared a personal war against two different countries without any declaration by congress.. Which, by the way, is required by constitutional law. He also lied to the American people about WMD's in order to do it. Then, when he was done, he allowed his republican buddies to pillage and rape our financial and economic system and plunge us into one of the biggest recessions in history. (dare I call it a mini-depression?). 

How did you feel when you're home lost half its value within a single year? Did you like that? 

So yes, presidential power comes with its own perks in that sense. Allowing a bunch of immigrants into our country is how this country was built. When I was in school, they taught this in history classes, did they stop teaching it?

So, lets refresh. We put a republican in charge and we get war and they let a bunch of rich people get richer. 

We put a democrat in charge and he puts a stop to a lot of it. Funny thing is, when Clinton was in charge, we had 8 years of prosperity and no wars. Oh ya, Clinton was a democrat by the way.

Yup, doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the difference.
Bill Maher said it best:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1yoY1nxwe8&feature=player_detailpage#t=55[/ame]


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

7thswan said:


> Note only Congress has the authority to enact law, any enactment of law by the Judiciary or the Executive office is in Excess of Jurisdiction: Article I, Section 1. âAll legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.â
> 
> 18 U.S.C. Section 1. âWhenever a judge acts where he/she does not have jurisdiction to act, the judge is engaged in an act or acts of treason.â U.S. v. Will, 449 U.S. 200, 216, 101 S.Ct. 471, 66 .Ed.2d 392, 406 (1980); Cohens v. Virginia, 19 U.S. (6 Wheat) 264, 404, 5 L.Ed 257 (1821)
> 
> ...


*Right, but now the Emperor has spoken. All hail the Emperor*


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

simi-steading said:


> I wanna know what the requisite is for someone that snuck into the country, to be able to prove they've been here 5 years or more..
> 
> OH, and again, about sending criminals back, if someone has been here for 5 years and working under the table, then they haven't paid taxes for those 5 years... In the USA, not paying your taxes is a SERIOUS crime that WILL get you arrested... Just ask Wesly Snipes, Willie Nelson, Martha Stewart...
> 
> OH, but if you are someone like Al Sharpton, and don't pay your taxes, we can look the other way... You know, since they do such good work bringing the people together..


Post of the day award.


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

*Default Sheriff Joe Arpaio sues Obama over immigration executive order*

Go Joe Go, do it you da man~! Glad I had the opportunity to vote for you. We need more sheriffs just like you.~!

Case 1:14-cv-01966 Document 1 Filed 11/20/14 Page 1 of 19
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
&#65532;Mr. JOE ARPAIO, Elected SHERIFF of Maricopa County, State of Arizona
550 West Jackson Street
Phoenix, AZ 85003
Plaintiff,
v.
The Honorable BARACK OBAMA, individually and in his professional capacity as President of the United States of America
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, D.C. 20500

http://www.freedomwatchusa.org/pdf/141120-Arpaio%20Complaint%20with%20Exhibits.pdf


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Crisste said:


> Yup.. Presidents have a way of getting things done.
> 
> George Bush (Republican) declared a personal war against two different countries without any declaration by congress.. Which, by the way, is required by constitutional law. He also lied to the American people about WMD's in order to do it. Then, when he was done, he allowed his republican buddies to pillage and rape our financial and economic system and plunge us into one of the biggest recessions in history. (dare I call it a mini-depression?).
> 
> ...


You don't know your facts. Just more parroted words from the left.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

MoonRiver said:


> As I understand it, he can use prosecutorial discretion to avoid deporting illegal immigrants. I think that is a stretch, but unlikely the courts would take it on.
> 
> The work permits are likely unConstitutional as that is a roll of Congress. Again, he can use prosecutorial discretion to refuse to prosecute employers hiring illegal aliens.
> 
> ...


Did you know he has already asked for contractual work to make 34 MILLION Green Cards.


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## badlander (Jun 7, 2009)

Our beloved nephew was robbed and shot dead in the street in Denver in plain view by an illegal alien drug dealer.

This all makes me sick to my stomach.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

badlander said:


> Our beloved nephew was robbed and shot dead in the street in Denver in plain view by an illegal alien drug dealer.
> 
> This all makes me sick to my stomach.


I'm sorry. I have been hearing many stories like this.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

> What does he not understand about ANYONE that is here illegally is a "criminal"?





> ... illegal aliens illegally coming to the U.S. (which is a criminal act)


This is incorrect. 

Entering illegally is a civil infraction, not a criminal offense. Sure, entering (and staying) illegally is wrong, but it's an important distinction, legally.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Tiempo said:


> This is incorrect.
> 
> Entering illegally is a civil infraction, not a criminal offense. Sure, entering (and staying) illegally is wrong, but it's an important distinction, legally.


Being here illegally is a civil matter, but depending on how he entered the act of crossing the border illegally might be a criminal act. But most undocumented immigrants enter the US legally and overstay, which is civil.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Crisste said:


> Yup.. Presidents have a way of getting things done.
> 
> George Bush (Republican) declared a personal war against two different countries without any declaration by congress.. Which, by the way, is required by constitutional law. He also lied to the American people about WMD's in order to do it. Then, when he was done, he allowed his republican buddies to pillage and rape our financial and economic system and plunge us into one of the biggest recessions in history. (dare I call it a mini-depression?).
> 
> ...


So lets refresh. 

If you had any credibility at all you just lost it. 

Do you know that congress voted & approved EVERYTHING Bush did regards to wars? Do you have ANY idea how many prominent Ds yelled for years about going after Saddam?
We've posted the quotes from them over&over&over.
Bush going to was w/o congress? I think you mean this Idioitincharge.
BTW, any quote from Maher is a quote from an IDIOT.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

Vahomesteaders said:


> He just made all illegal immigrants legal.


************************************
was that he was going to make only 5 million illegals....'legal' with the 
stroke of his electronic pen, scribbling out executive orders. However,
there is talk that the administration is seeking out appropriate venders
who have the capability to produce 34 million green cards in the next 5 years!
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...y-Prepares-Surge-Of-Millions-Of-Immigrant-IDs
Granted.....math isn't my best subject, but even I can see a 'problem'
with the figures. Of course, this is from the party that brought us the
ACA with the infamous catch phrase: "we have to pass the bill in order 
to find out what is in it." No such worry here......Obama says 5 million
and it really means 37 million.....or possibly/probably more.....especially
if the next election looks in question.....just "legalize" 20+ million more for
a landslide victory!!!


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

badlander said:


> Our beloved nephew was robbed and shot dead in the street in Denver in plain view by an illegal alien drug dealer.
> 
> This all makes me sick to my stomach.


I am so sorry for your loss. 
This has happened to so many.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Being here illegally is a civil matter, but depending on how he entered the act of crossing the border illegally might be a criminal act. But most undocumented immigrants enter the US legally and overstay, which is civil.


Guess those paths and the trash left behind by the illegals crossing my land and my neighbors were not breaking any laws? Nearly forgot the dead bodies left by the coyotes and drug smugglers.


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## badlander (Jun 7, 2009)

7thswan said:


> I'm sorry. I have been hearing many stories like this.



Thank you. It happened 5 years ago but lives fresh in our family's hearts and minds.

I know not everyone who is Hispanic is a criminal. I know that there are countless innocent children who had nothing to say in their illegal status or in the fact that their mother came here to give birth to an 'American' Child. I know that this country was built on the backs and labor of LEGAL foreigners who came to this country through Ellis Island and other legal ports of entry. My father's family came from Germany, my mothers from Ireland. I am a child of Legal Alien Migrants and proud of the fact that I am also the last generation who can claim Native American status thanks to my Cherokee great grandmother.

But how many criminals are going to get legal status because of this declaration? How many more families are going to suffer because one of these criminals are packing legal status cards and are now even more emboldened to commit murder because of it.

Don't tell me the criminals won't come forward to claim legal status. Frankly I don't want to hear it. All I can think about is the funny, compassionate, intelligent young man with a new PHD title who was shot down and now lies in a grave 200 miles away from us. I will never again receive a funny email, card or telephone call from him. No more Christmas get to-gathers.

All I can think about is a line from the old Charlton Heston version of the Ten Commandments.

"So it shall be written, So shall it be done." Spoken by Yul Brenner as the emperor of Egypt.

This isn't the America it was when I was born 60+ years ago. It has become a dictatorship and I grieve for it as I grieve for my nephew.


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

Crisste said:


> Yup.. Presidents have a way of getting things done.
> 
> George Bush (Republican) declared a personal war against two different countries without any declaration by congress.. Which, by the way, is required by constitutional law. He also lied to the American people about WMD's in order to do it.


REALLY!?!?!?!?!?

The authorization for the use of military force in Afghanistan and other locations was approved by Congress:

_House of Representatives:

On September 14, 2001 the House passed House Joint Resolution 64. The totals in the House of Representatives were: 420 Ayes, 1 Nay and 10 Not Voting. The Nay was Barbara Lee, D-CA. [1] Lee is notable as the only member of either house of Congress to vote against this bill.[2]

Senate:

On September 14, 2001 Senate Joint Resolution 23 passed in the Senate by roll call vote. The totals in the Senate were: 98 Ayes, 0 Nays, 2 Present/Not Voting (Senators Larry Craig - R and Jesse Helms - R)._

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Military_Force_Against_Terrorists



The authorization for the use of military force against Iraq was also approved by Congress:

_Introduced in Congress on October 2, 2002, in conjunction with the Administration's proposals, H.J.Res. 114 passed the House of Representatives on Thursday afternoon at 3:05 p.m. EDT on October 10, 2002, by a vote of 296-133, and passed the Senate after midnight early Friday morning, at 12:50 a.m. EDT on October 11, 2002, by a vote of 77-23. It was signed into law as Pub.L. 107â243 by President Bush on October 16, 2002_


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution





> Then, when he was done, he allowed his republican buddies to pillage and rape our financial and economic system and plunge us into one of the biggest recessions in history. (dare I call it a mini-depression?).



I am certainly not going to be an apologist for Haliburton, the American auto industry, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, AIG, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, et al.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

But, do you really believe that all of those entities are Republican owned and operated, without a single Democrat involved in any way, shape or form? There is more than enough blame to go around on both sides of the political coin.




> How did you feel when you're home lost half its value within a single year? Did you like that?


Ah!!! The good old days!!! Where people willingly paid many more times the actual amount that their home was worth, balloon payments, fudging of income levels so that the loan would be approved and then found out that they could not afford the home. Didn't the legal justification for easing the requirements for home loans come during the Clinton administration? <---- (Rhetorical question.)



> Allowing a bunch of immigrants into our country is how this country was built.


Yes it is, but you forgot to add one little adjective. "legal"!!! Way back in time the U.S. was almost begging people to come here and settle the new lands even though they were already settled by Native Americans.




> Allowing a bunch of *legal* immigrants into our country is how this country was built.


There... I fixed it for you.



> When I was in school, they taught this in history classes, did they stop teaching it?


I actually hope that you are just misremembering what was actually taught. 



> So, lets refresh. We put a republican in charge and we get war and they let a bunch of rich people get richer.


Whoops!!! 

President's during wars of the last century:

WW1 - Woodrow Wilson (D)
WW2 - Franklin D. Roosevelt (D)
Korean War - Harry Truman (D)
Vietnam War - Eisenhower (R), Kennedy (D), Lyndon Johnson (D), Nixon (R), Ford(R) --- Kennedy, LBJ and Nixon were arguably the main presidential players for this war. Oh, the deified JFK was the one that approved the overthrow of South Vietnam President Diem and some believe his subsequent assassination. Kind of like his obsession with assassinating Castro. It almost looks like a theme.
Gulf War - George H. Bush (R)
Afghan War - George W. Bush (R)

There are a lot of (D's) in that group.



> We put a democrat in charge and he puts a stop to a lot of it.



Actually he has not yet ended much since we are still in Afghanistan and going back to Iraq to fill in the vacuum our departure created (prognosticated by many in the military and quite a few conservatives).




> Funny thing is, when Clinton was in charge, we had 8 years of prosperity and no wars. Oh ya, Clinton was a democrat by the way.


Easy to do when there is a technology and internet boom that he was in no way responsible for. That is unless you believe that Al Gore truly "fathered the internet"?

Also easy when you fudge the numbers a little and include Social Security where it should never be included.



> Yup, doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the difference.


Here is where you are really right, because I am not a rocket scientist.

TRellis


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

A neighbor told us last week that Obama has not only made Carter look like a good POTUS he has also made Nixon look like a political saint.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

About those "34 million green cards"

It's not an order for green cards, it's an order for card stock to make green cards and EAD cards to cover a 5 year period.

Over 1 million new green cards are issued annually, before you get your green card you get an EAD card, so that's about 6 million cards in 5 years.

Green cards are issued for either 2 years or 10 years then must be renewed and reissued.

Then account for misprints and card stock wastage during shipping, storage and production, which is bound to happen, then add in cards that need to be replaced due to being lost, stolen or damaged and card stock for 34 million cards over 5 years starts to sound not particularly surprising.


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

Tiempo said:


> This is incorrect.
> 
> Entering illegally is a civil infraction, not a criminal offense. Sure, entering (and staying) illegally is wrong, but it's an important distinction, legally.



_"The illegal entry of non-nationals into the United States is a *misdemeanor* according to the Immigration and Nationality Act, which prohibits non-nationals from entering or attempting to enter the United States at any time or place which has not been designated by an immigration officer, and also prohibits non-nationals from eluding inspection by immigration officers."_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_entry#United_States

Definition of misdemeanor:

_"noun 
1. Law. a criminal offense defined as less serious than a felony. 
2. an instance of misbehavior; misdeed."_


_"A misdemeanor is any "lesser" *criminal *act in some common law legal systems. Misdemeanors are generally punished less severely than felonies, but theoretically more so than administrative infractions (also known as minor, petty or summary offences) and regulatory offences. Many misdemeanors are punished with monetary fines."_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misdemeanor

I never said that illegally entering the U.S. is a capital offense, but I still believe that it is a "criminal" act. Something much less than murdering someone, but still against the law.



Nevada said:


> Being here illegally is a civil matter, but depending on how he entered the act of crossing the border illegally might be a criminal act. But most undocumented immigrants enter the US legally and overstay, which is civil.


Uhhhhhhh........ No!

_"The Pew Hispanic Center estimates that 6â7 million immigrants came to the United States via illegal entry, accounting for probably a little over half of the total population. There are an estimated half million illegal entries into the United States each year.

According to Pew, between 4 and 5.5 million foreigners entered the United States with a legal visa, accounting for between 33â50% of the total population.

A smaller number of illegal immigrants entered the United States legally using the Border Crossing Card, a card that authorizes border crossings into the U.S. for a set amount of time."_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Illegal_entry

The numbers from this study are closer than I actually thought, but crossing the border illegally is still the winner.

TRellis


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

Quote: *"Funny thing is, when Clinton was in charge, 
we had 8 years of prosperity **and no war**s. 
Oh ya, Clinton was a democrat by the way." 

* 
*"Easy to do when there is a technology and internet boom that he was in no way responsible for. 
That is unless you believe that Al Gore truly "fathered the internet"?

Also easy when you fudge the numbers a little and include Social Security where it should never be included."*
***************************************
Guess that both of you, seem to have forgotten that it was CLINTON who,
thru NATO, authorized the bombing of the Serbs......of course it was only a very 'small war'.....
but it actually accomplished a lot for the amount of blood that was shed.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1514131/posts

Nothing like killing a few christians to get on the Saudi's christmas wish list that year.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Funny thing is, Clinton got slammed during the midterm & cleaned up his act. Worked w/Rs. And NEVERNEVER tried to "Fundamentally change the USA"!!


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

copperkid3 said:


> Guess that both of you, seem to have forgotten that it was CLINTON who,
> thru NATO, authorized the bombing of the Serbs......of course it was only a very 'small war'.....
> but it actually accomplished a lot for the amount of blood that was shed.
> 
> ...


Nope. I did not forget it at all. I was just referring to those conflicts which in the U.S. have been euphemistically referred to as "wars". I was trying to keep it simple.

In all honesty I also neglected to mention such places as Nicaragua, Panama, El Salvador, Cuba, Mexico, Grenada, Lebanon, Laos, Cambodia, Libya, and many others where the U.S. military was utilized.

TRellis


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## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

Tricky Grama said:


> That's b/c waterboarding as the navy seals do to each other in training, is NOT torture. Go to YOUR party who OK'ed it all.


Water boarding is torture there is plenty of precedent where people have been tried and convicted of torture for water boarding. A simple question for you. Why do navy seals water board each other? Answer to learn to resist torture as part of their counter-interrogation training.

Jim


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

Tiempo said:


> About those "34 million green cards"
> 
> It's not an order for green cards, it's an order for card stock to make green cards and EAD cards to cover a 5 year period.
> 
> ...


Well, let us do the math because I think 34 million is a bit high, but I am not sure and I am also curious. I will even do this considering everything in a worst case scenario.

I will start with your initial number of just over one million green cards being issued annually and I will even increase that number ten percent each year (hopefully worst case) because we all know that the numbers increase annually.

first year: 1.1 million
second year : 1.21 million
third year : 1.33 million
fourth year: 1.47 million
fifth year: 1.61 million

That is a total of 6.72 million cards. Let us assume that everyone is handed both their green card and EAD card at the same time, which I am pretty sure does not happen, and the number doubles to 13.44 million.

Now let us assume that all of the green cards are issued for only a two year period (worst case). First year people will actually be issued green cards two additional times over the five year period, second and third year people will only be reissued cards one more time during the five year period. Fourth and Fifth year people will not need reissuing during the five year period.

first year: 1.1 million X 2 = 2.2 million
second year: 1.21 X 1 = 1.21
third year: 1.33 X 1 = 1.31

For a total of expired and reissued cards: 4.72 million cards

13.44 million + 4.72 million = 18.16 million cards

18.16 million cards +/- are all that are needed to be issued at the most, in a worst case scenario. 

Do you really believe that there is a need for an additional 15.84 *million *cards to cover "_misprints, card stock wastage during shipping, storage and production, replacements due to being lost, stolen or damaged and card stock_."

This almost doubling of the cards needed for a worst case scenario does not seem _"particularly surprising"_ to you?

Or is it just a case of where we need to find a better supplier for the cards, a better means of transporting the cards undamaged, more adept federal employees that will fill out the cards correctly and, of course, a better quality of immigrant that will not lose their green card?

TRellis


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

TRellis said:


> _"The illegal entry of non-nationals into the United States is a *misdemeanor* according to the Immigration and Nationality Act, which prohibits non-nationals from entering or attempting to enter the United States at any time or place which has not been designated by an immigration officer, and also prohibits non-nationals from eluding inspection by immigration officers."_
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_entry#United_States
> 
> ...


You are correct about entering illegally, it is a misdemeanor. However, being present illegally is a civil infraction only. It's estimated close to half of 'illegal aliens' entered legally but are now present illegally.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

TRellis said:


> Well, let us do the math because I think 34 million is a bit high, but I am not sure and I am also curious. I will even do this considering everything in a worst case scenario.
> 
> I will start with your initial number of just over one million green cards being issued annually and I will even increase that number ten percent each year (hopefully worst case) because we all know that the numbers increase annually.
> 
> ...


No, I don't think there's a need for that much stock, it's no secret that government is obscenely wasteful.. that's nothing new. 

What I was attempting to illustrate is that the idea the RW pages are throwing around that the government is ordering 34 million green cards is way off the mark.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I don't think Obamas game of Dicktator is done.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Jim Bunton said:


> Tricky Grama said:
> 
> 
> > That's b/c waterboarding as the navy seals do to each other in training, is NOT torture. Go to YOUR party who OK'ed it all.
> ...


When our military personnel are waterboarded in training it can't be compared to detainees being waterboarded. That because the military trainees understand the process, and know that death isn't part of that process. Detainees have no such knowledge.

The whole intent is to make the detainee believe that death is imminent. That threat alone is enough to make it torture. Look at the US Code for the definition in section 2C.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2340


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## Pearl B (Sep 27, 2008)

7thswan said:


> I don't think Obamas game of Dicktator is done.


I don't either. I'm kinda wondering if the EO's are just beginning. I suspect that the resounding rejection of all things "Obama policies", in the latest elections, has personally wounded him. 
Perhaps to the point he's tired of playing President and wants to be impeached.

In the paraphrased words of the venerable Eric Cartman Stuff it you guys, I'm going home :hysterical: :sing:


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

Tiempo said:


> You are correct about entering illegally, it is a misdemeanor. However, being present illegally is a civil infraction only. *It's estimated close to half of 'illegal aliens' entered legally but are now present illegally*.


Actually the numbers that I posted coming from the Pew Hispanic Center cover a range from as low as 36% to a high of 48% depending on which estimates are the most accurate. I guess you can consider that close. The average would be 42%. 58% illegally entering and 42% legally entering. In a political election that would be considered a "landslide", giving the politician with the 58% a "mandate". At least by today's standards.



Tiempo said:


> No, I don't think there's a need for that much stock, *it's no secret that government is obscenely wasteful*.. that's nothing new.
> 
> What I was attempting to illustrate is that the idea the RW pages are throwing around that the government is ordering 34 million green cards is way off the mark.


You will get no argument from me about government waste. It is quite obscene. I have seen it in living color. But these numbers are beyond the pale even by normal government waste standards. If I were to change a single assumption in all of those calculations the numbers become even more alarming. 

If I assume that only half of the green cards issued are for two years and the other half for ten years then the total needed would be only 13.1 million cards (not including misprint, loss, etc.) That would mean that there are about *21 million* cards without an intended purpose. That is a lot of extra cards.

Do you see now why the RW (right wing, I assume) might have their knickers in a knot? There is quite the potential for those extra cards to be issued when they should not be by the standards present before last night. Let's just hope that they do not fall into idle hands controlled by idle minds.

Me? Prior to the research and math calculations I was just a little wary as to why that many extra cards are needed. Now, I do seriously question the need for so many. 

TRellis


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Pearl B said:


> I don't either. I'm kinda wondering if the EO's are just beginning. I suspect that the resounding rejection of all things "Obama policies", in the latest elections, has personally wounded him.
> Perhaps to the point he's tired of playing President and wants to be impeached.
> 
> In the paraphrased words of the venerable Eric Cartman Stuff it you guys, I'm going home :hysterical: :sing:


I think he's in Vegas right now,running his trap.I'll read a transcript,won't listen to his lies.


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

7thswan said:


> I think he's in Vegas right now,running his trap.I'll read a transcript,won't listen to his lies.


Actually I am sort of listening to him now. A moment ago he mentioned again how he has been trying for more than 5 and 1/2 years (his time in office) to get an immigration reform bill passed, but the leaders of the House of Representatives have blocked it for those 5 and 1/2 years. 

Obviously he has forgotten that Nancy Pelosi was the Speaker of the House for the first two years of those 5 and 1/2 years when the Democrats owned both the House and the Senate. 

If this issue has been so important to him why was an Immigration Reform Bill not passed in those first two years? 

Now he has the crowd chanting, "Pass a Bill!" 

The clueless being manipulated by a clever liar. 

TRellis


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

I hear they are Kids. Probably couldn't go to a venue with adults,noone would show up.


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## fixitguy (Nov 2, 2010)

7thswan said:


> I don't think Obamas game of Dicktator is done.


He's not done at all, This is just a start. His next hat trick will be trying to stay in office.
I think two next two years he will try to pass his agenda at a rapid pace, unlike we have ever seen.


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

Nevada said:


> When our military personnel are waterboarded in training it can't be compared to detainees being waterboarded. That because the military trainees understand the process, and know that death isn't part of that process. Detainees have no such knowledge.
> 
> The whole intent is to make the detainee believe that death is imminent. That threat alone is enough to make it torture. Look at the US Code for the definition in section 2C.


I am assuming that you have never been to SERE school. 

You are correct that in the back of your mind you "think" you know that death is not a "planned" part of the process, but "stuff" happens. I am willing to bet that all of those individuals that I saw die during training also thought that they "knew" that death was not part of the process. When my parachute did not open properly once I was not thinking about "how could this happen during training?" All I could think of was to shake the risers several times to get that bugger to open before I become a splatter mark. Well, that and "where is the rip cord for my emergency chute hiding."

The same thing when that towel is stretched across your face and the water enters your nose and mouth. You do not care or even realize that it is training. Your survival instincts kick in and you do what you think you need to do. Just ask the guy that was not strong enough to hold down a leg and got kicked in the face.



> The whole intent is to make the detainee believe that death is imminent. That threat alone is enough to make it torture.


Short of that, what do you suggest? You have an individual in custody that you firmly believe has information that in your hands can prevent the deaths of many of your fellow soldiers and/or innocent civilians. How do you get the information? And time is not on your side.


TRellis


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

fixitguy said:


> He's not done at all, This is just a start. His next hat trick will be trying to stay in office.
> I think two next two years he will try to pass his agenda at a rapid pace, unlike we have ever seen.


I just ment the amnesty. He's just getting warmed up on the Tyrany. :buds:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

TRellis said:


> I am willing to bet that all of those individuals that I saw die during training also thought that they "knew" that death was not part of the process.


How many US troops have died during waterboard training?


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

None that I know of, but I do know of quite a few instances in scuba training where a student is unresponsive at the bottom of the pool (shallow water black-out) and is quickly revived by medics. 

I really do not believe that it is much of a stretch to think that there was probably one or two unresponsive students after waterboarding training that were revived by the medics standing right there.

Without the medics who knows what would have happened.

But I do think that you may have missed a question that I asked in my last posting:



> Short of that (that being torture by waterboarding), what do you suggest? You have an individual in custody that you firmly believe has information that in your hands can prevent the deaths of many of your fellow soldiers and/or innocent civilians. How do you get the information? And time is not on your side.


I am not trying to zing you or anything. I am genuinely interested in what a non-military person thinks it acceptable in trying to retrieve information from an uncooperative individual in a timely fashion?

TRellis


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

TRellis said:


> I am not trying to zing you or anything. I am genuinely interested in what a non-military person thinks it acceptable in trying to retrieve information from an uncooperative individual in a timely fashion?
> 
> TRellis


Shoot em in the right knee cap if that don't work try the left one . Burning Bamboo under the finger nails :sing: Stake em out on a ant hill :thumb: Lots of ways other than waderboarding :buds:


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## TRellis (Sep 16, 2013)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Shoot em in the right knee cap if that don't work try the left one . Burning Bamboo under the finger nails :sing: Stake em out on a ant hill :thumb: Lots of ways other than waderboarding :buds:


LOL...

Yeah, but you seem to be on my side.

By the way, a drill bit through the knee works as well and you do not waste any ammunition and you forgot the honey for the ants... or was that for the bears? 

TRellis


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

And once again bait and switch into something that has nothing to do with what is happening NOW.


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## trulytricia (Oct 11, 2002)

badlander said:


> Thank you. It happened 5 years ago but lives fresh in our family's hearts and minds.
> 
> I know not everyone who is Hispanic is a criminal. I know that there are countless innocent children who had nothing to say in their illegal status or in the fact that their mother came here to give birth to an 'American' Child. I know that this country was built on the backs and labor of LEGAL foreigners who came to this country through Ellis Island and other legal ports of entry. My father's family came from Germany, my mothers from Ireland. I am a child of Legal Alien Migrants and proud of the fact that I am also the last generation who can claim Native American status thanks to my Cherokee great grandmother.
> 
> ...


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## trulytricia (Oct 11, 2002)

Memorial for victims of illegal aliens

http://www.ojjpac.org/memorial.asp


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

trulytricia said:


> badlander said:
> 
> 
> > But how many criminals are going to get legal status because of this declaration?
> ...


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

Vahomesteaders said:


> With the stroke of a pen we became a nation run by a dictator. He bypassed Congress and the constitution to do so.


Take it on back to the very first President to issue an EO, then run the country like a dictator. We built a monument to him, so why would the rest of them that followed think there is anything wrong with it ?











When Obama locks up an entire State legislature to keep them from voting on an issue, he will be in the big leagues.....like this guy ^.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Jim Bunton said:


> Water boarding is torture there is plenty of precedent where people have been tried and convicted of torture for water boarding. A simple question for you. Why do navy seals water board each other? Answer to learn to resist torture as part of their counter-interrogation training.
> 
> Jim


Yes, & it was not the waterboarding that was used on the Sept 11th terrorists. 
If you have a problem, take it to Pelosi & the rest of her committee who ok'ed it.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

TRellis said:


> Actually I am sort of listening to him now. A moment ago he mentioned again how he has been trying for more than 5 and 1/2 years (his time in office) to get an immigration reform bill passed, but the leaders of the House of Representatives have blocked it for those 5 and 1/2 years.
> 
> Obviously he has forgotten that Nancy Pelosi was the Speaker of the House for the first two years of those 5 and 1/2 years when the Democrats owned both the House and the Senate.
> 
> ...


I remember a bill being DEFEATED by his D congress. But he issued an EO anyway.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

TRellis said:


> I am assuming that you have never been to SERE school.
> 
> You are correct that in the back of your mind you "think" you know that death is not a "planned" part of the process, but "stuff" happens. I am willing to bet that all of those individuals that I saw die during training also thought that they "knew" that death was not part of the process. When my parachute did not open properly once I was not thinking about "how could this happen during training?" All I could think of was to shake the risers several times to get that bugger to open before I become a splatter mark. Well, that and "where is the rip cord for my emergency chute hiding."
> 
> ...


Post of the decade award.
Thank you for your service.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

TRellis said:


> None that I know of, but I do know of quite a few instances in scuba training where a student is unresponsive at the bottom of the pool (shallow water black-out) and is quickly revived by medics.
> 
> I really do not believe that it is much of a stretch to think that there was probably one or two unresponsive students after waterboarding training that were revived by the medics standing right there.
> 
> ...


Oh, OH, Me! ME!! I know his answer! 
Ask them nicely.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

My main field of work has anyways been construction. Now I work from home building custom furniture and woodcrafts. Do you know how many times in the last 5 years I have seen honest American folks both white and black drive into a job sight looking for work only to be told there is none? And why were they told that? Because there were 10 illegals working for minimum wage or less off the books. Now that he has done this they will come out of the wood work and they will work for minimum wage. So skilled Americans in that field well not have work because a now legal immigrant will do it for 1/4 the pay. Good honest small business won't be able to compete with the folks charging half what the job is worth and be shut down. It's a shame.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> How many US troops have died during waterboard training?


More than have terrorists.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Vahomesteaders said:


> My main field of work has anyways been construction. Now I work from home building custom furniture and woodcrafts. Do you know how many times in the last 5 years I have seen honest American folks both white and black drive into a job sight looking for work only to be told there is none? And why were they told that? Because there were 10 illegals working for minimum wage or less off the books. Now that he has done this they will come out of the wood work and they will work for minimum wage. So skilled Americans in that field well not have work because a now legal immigrant will do it for 1/4 the pay. Good honest small business won't be able to compete with the folks charging half what the job is worth and be shut down. It's a shame.


Of course! 
I'm extremely upset at what this will do ESPECIALLY to the black work force.


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