# 9 Biker Thugs Killed in wild shootout



## Hoopjohn (Mar 8, 2013)

Waco Texas in the news again. As what generally happens, first news reports are sketchy as to the true facts.
Still sketchy are the details. Early reports have bikers first fighting with fists, knives, etc and then it escalates to full fledged shootout. Supposedly, at one point, shots fired at cops....who return fire. 

This will be interesting to follow as all the details/facts make there way forward.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Gang turf wars happen all the time! I wonder why this one is news worthy? It is on every channel!


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Well, it was pretty big and a lot of bystanders got caught in it. I think it deserved coverage.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

The store and restaurant and bar had a heads up from police and did nothing to prevent the problem.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

nchobbyfarm said:


> Gang turf wars happen all the time! I wonder why this one is news worthy?


When was the last time there was a biker turf war with a body count this high?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Nevada said:


> When was the last time there was a biker turf war with a body count this high?


It's hard to say because they are usually better at hiding the bodies

I remember it was pretty common in the 70's with the Storm Troopers and the Jackels around here


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

This is clearly the fault of republicans for not passing a bill to provide infrastructure to improve the possibilities of the bikers. A 
chess match could have prevented the violence but the republicans have proposed no pro Chess bills. I also suspect some of the bikers were killed by rogue cops. The DOJ needs to investigate that police dept. Biker lives matter too.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Bearfootfarm said:


> It's hard to say because they are usually better at hiding the bodies


So it happens all the time, yet you can't remember when.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Pick your color... We all do....


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

So let me get this straight, 9 thugs were eliminated from society, I'm fine with that. They can eliminate each other all they want, just leave the rest of us alone.


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## Forcast (Apr 15, 2014)

we just need to open a gladiator stadium and let people do what they do


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Nevada said:


> So it happens all the time, yet you can't remember when.


The cops in those areas are used to the turf wars and such and said so on tv today. This came as no surprise to them and they previously warned the restaurant. This one was a bit larger than usual, but not uncommon.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

poppy said:


> The cops in those areas are used to the turf wars and such and said so on tv today.


I saw a Las Vegas biker gang lawyer on the news this evening who said most of the dead were killed by the police. He didn't say how he knew that, but he said that at least 5 of the dead were shot by police. Here's the video of that news segment.

http://www.news3lv.com/content/video/default.aspx?videoID=5771143


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Nevada said:


> So it happens all the time, yet you can't remember when.


It does happen all the time but not with a body count this high usually. 

http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/nation/2015/05/18/27554143/

What's even more disturbing is the cartel body count (US citizens) that doesn't even get any air time. 

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/42232161/...mexico-drug-wars-claim-us-lives/#.VVqfL_co6P8

This article was before or close to the time (2011) the Eagle Pass Newspaper was bombed and the reporter killed for reporting their activities. It never made it to the news other than that one newspaper. Now they are too afraid to print anything it seems. 

2013 the mayor of Chicago declares El Chapo public enemy #1. That hasn't been used since Al Capone. So its more than a border problem. 

But anyway, don't mean to highjack the thread. The point is many many gang deaths are not reported here and other states too.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Nevada said:


> I saw a Las Vegas biker gang lawyer on the news this evening who said most of the dead were killed by the police. He didn't say how he knew that, but he said that at least 5 of the dead were shot by police. Here's the video of that news segment.
> 
> http://www.news3lv.com/content/video/default.aspx?videoID=5771143


Yes, the news report I heard on the radio was the same as what you heard. There was weapons ranging from brass knuckles to clubs to guns there confiscated.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

Nevada said:


> When was the last time there was a biker turf war with a body count this high?


I don't know!!! When was the last biker turf war?


Pause for effect!

I said gang! Google! Hundreds of stories? Several with way more bystanders and bodies involved? Heck, enough just out of Chicago to top this story!

Everyone wants to use the term biker to conjure up stereotypes!!!!


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Last I heard, cops said the restaurant folks were lying & would not take their advice on security, etc. the parent co. Is thinking of taking away their franchise...


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

There hasn't been much reported on this since it happened, at least not outside the local news in Waco.
I can't post the links due to language, and I'm not sure it's a good idea for other reasons.:TFH:

But if you were to search out the site, Western people, who like Rifles, you could even call them Shooters, and they had a wordpress.com suffix, you might find some interesting first hand accounts that don't match the official version........


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> first hand accounts that don't match the official version........


Yes, from random posters on the internet

Imagine that!!

The bikers who say "I didn't do nothin', man" or "I didn't have any weapons, but they arrested me for my primary chain belt and my Buck knife anyway"


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

farmrbrown said:


> There hasn't been much reported on this since it happened, at least not outside the local news in Waco.
> I can't post the links due to language, and I'm not sure it's a good idea for other reasons.:TFH:
> 
> But if you were to search out the site, Western people, who like Rifles, you could even call them Shooters, and they had a wordpress.com suffix, you might find some interesting first hand accounts that don't match the official version........


Yes. I read a site that keeps up with every single thing about this case. If you' d like the site addy. Pm me.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Yes, from random posters on the internet
> 
> Imagine that!!
> 
> The bikers who say "I didn't do nothin', man" or "I didn't have any weapons, but they arrested me for my primary chain belt and my Buck knife anyway"


Noooo.........when I say firsthand, I'm talking about some who were arrested and some still in jail........like the CMA guys.
Never heard of them?
The "C" stands for Christian and they were there at the request of the other bikers to help keep the peace as they were having this meeting.
Then there's the surveillance tapes seen by reporters before they were confiscated, not just the restaurant, but surrounding businesses.

There are _some_ published facts to consider as more is released.
I'll verify before I post........


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

7thswan said:


> Yes. I read a site that keeps up with every single thing about this case. If you' d like the site addy. Pm me.


Thanks, I'll probably take you up on that, some biker friends at work gave me one that has a lot more on this including the background history about law enforcement and some reasons why they get nervous when groups get together to discuss things.
Things better said in a PM.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Noooo.........when I say firsthand, I'm talking about some who were arrested and some still in jail........like the CMA guys.
> Never heard of them?
> The "C" stands for Christian and they were there at the request of the other bikers to help keep the peace as they were having this meeting.


Still bikers, still giving one side of the story, still under arrest.

The quotes I used were also first hand from a couple that were arrested "for no reason"

Neither side has any credibility right now, so it doesn't make a lot of difference what they are saying on someone's blog.

If they wanted peace they should all have stayed at home, or the leaders only could have met and all sat at one table.

Getting 500 outlaw bikers together isn't conducive to "peace"


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Still bikers, still giving one side of the story, still under arrest.
> 
> The quotes I used were also first hand from a couple that were arrested "for no reason"
> 
> ...


If I'm not mistaken, not all were outlaw bikers, some were weekend riders and social MC's but it probably would have been a good idea to leave the one percenters off the guest list. 

It is my understanding that this is an annual thing that is put on to discuss legislation and issues relating to those that ride and a bit of a get together that has gone on for some time but if you're going to invite rival outlaw clubs, there's a good chance somebody's going to get hurt.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Still bikers, still giving one side of the story, still under arrest.
> 
> The quotes I used were also first hand from a couple that were arrested "for no reason"
> 
> ...



Yep, one side of the story is exactly what I'm talking about.
I've heard the Waco PD, now I'd like to hear any other version of the event so I can make up my mind independently on what happened, and what didn't.

Specifically, I'd like the autopsy results.
The Waco chief stated none of HIS officers were in sniper position, nome of HIS officers fired until fired upon and HIS officers were just sitting in their cars. But we also know there were at least two other agencies there.

Two allegations bother me about this and both need to followed until proven true or false.

1) That some arrested are innocent restaurant patrons, the couple you referred to were driving a little Nissan, I believe, and walking thru the parking lot to go in and eat.
Nevertheless, held on a $1 million bond and refused to be lowered UNLESS they agreed not to sue.

Now, you may not believe a word of that, good for you. I hope it isn't true as well. But if it IS, I hope they sue Waco for every penny its got, cuz they darn sure deserve it! 
Time will tell.

2) I'd like to see the autopsy results on the nine dead.
Again, it's _alleged_ by witnesses, criminals, liars, jailbirds, citizens......take your pick............that all nine were either head or neck shots fired from the surrounding roofs.
The Waco chief already stated .223 police rounds were recovered and most of us know that ain't what they carry in a standard PD sidearm.
So, I'd like to know what bullets killed them, when and where they were fired.
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-t...ief-offers-some-details-in-deadly-6324300.php
Waco Police officers were in their cars in parking lots adjacent to the restaurant when the shooting starting, according to the statement, and were not pre-positioned in sniper posts.

Houston Lawyer Paul Looney, whose clients are among those arrested, said he's spoken with several eyewitnesses who said police took up sniper positions and fired at bikers.

"He can say what he wants to say," Looney said of the chief. "The evidence is ultimately going to be available to us all."

SWAT team members had silencers on their rifles that fired .223 caliber ammunition, weapons which are capable of fully automatic fire, but were kept in the semi-automatic mode, meaning one bullet for each time the trigger is squeezed.








If you wanted to provide cover for assassinations it would be easy to find 400+ weapons on such a large group gathered in one place. Just show how mean and dangerous they were and no one questions the headshots of those running to their bikes trying to leave.
For most people, they got what they deserved, right?

The last thing I'm looking at is the events preceding all of this. 
Apparently comments were made that certain associations had the ability to gather 800,000 armed men at any given notice, should they be needed if the gov't decided to implement *martial law.*
Saying, * "If they wanted peace they should all have stayed at home," * is about what I'd expect from the PTB.
I don't like the PTB.
If the PTB want peace, I suggest they stay off of rooftops and leave the sniper rifles at home.
It ain't no fun when the rabbit's got the gun.....Elmer Fudd.


You remember that term from the Jade Helm thread, don't you?

Now do you see why I'd rather find out the facts for myself rather than take your word or anyone else's on what did or didn't really happen at Waco?
I think we all remember Waco for a few other reasons as well.......


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Still bikers, still giving one side of the story, still under arrest.
> 
> The quotes I used were also first hand from a couple that were arrested "for no reason"
> 
> ...


Not your interp. of a "blog". There are sites that collect police reports,atopsys,all media ,video,google earth, even send people to do foot work.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

I found a recent local report, it has some autopsy reports, hopefully they are correct but this is not a copy of the actual autopsies.
So far, those "random blogs" appear to have been pretty accurate. Almost all head or neck shots and all outside the building.....
If you know anything about LEO training, head shots are not at all recommended EXCEPT for snipers, standard training is for center mass, not to mention that a head shot with a handgun in a gun battle is not likely. 
Now a head shot thru the scope of a sniper, that's another story.

http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/Waco-Shooting-Near-Twin-Peaks-In-Waco-304043711.html

Autopsy Reports Released

Preliminary autopsy reports released Tuesday identify the nine bikers who died Sunday afternoon in a shootout with rival gang members and police at Waco&#8217;s Twin Peaks restaurant, and at least two of them have local ties.

The nine bikers, all of whom were members of either the Bandidos or the Cossacks, all died of gunshot wounds.

Jesus Delgado Rodriguez, 65, died of gunshot wounds of the head and trunk.

Jacob Lee Rhyne, 39, died of gunshot wounds to the neck.

Richard Vincent Kirshner, Jr., 47, died of gunshot wounds but the report did not specify where he was shot.

Richard Matthew Jordan, III, 31, died of gunshot wounds to the head.

Wayne Lee Campbell, 43, died of gunshot wounds to the head and trunk.

Daniel Raymond Boyett, 44, died of gunshot wounds to the head.

Matthew Mark Smith, 27, died of gunshot wounds to the trunk

Manuel Issac Rodriguez, 40, died of gunshot wounds but the report did not specify where he was shot.

And Charles Wayne Russell, 46, died of gunshot wounds to the chest.

...............
Meanwhile Wednesday, Waco police Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton said investigators recovered about 300 weapons from the shooting scene including everything from pocket knives to assault-style knives to guns to chains to brass knuckles, to an AK-47 and body armor.

Earlier in the day, Swanton said about 1,000 weapons were recovered.

Swanton discounted media reports that four of the nine bikers were killed by police, saying that will be impossible to determine until autopsies and ballistic tests have been completed.

&#8220;Is it possible? Yes. Is it a fact? No,&#8221; he said.
.................

McLennan County Justice of the Peace Pete Peterson ordered the autopsies, but declined to identify them until their families have been notified.

They all were from Texas, he said.

Three of the dead were found in the parking lot just outside of the restaurant, four were found in front of the building and one had been dragged behind a neighboring restaurant, Swanton said.

All nine were members of two of the five gangs involved in the melee, he said.

...............







From the same link above.......

The approximately 170 suspects arrested* after the shootout Sunday were all charged with engaging in organized crime and were ordered held in lieu of $1 million bonds.*

Investigators are questioning them and are encountering varying degrees of cooperation, Swanton said.

One of the 170, Justin Nash Waddington, is a drainage maintenance supervisor for the City of Killeen, city spokeswoman Hillary Shine confirmed Tuesday.

She had no further comment.

*McLennan County Sheriff Parnell McNamara said Tuesday he plans to keep all 170 suspects in his jail for as long as he can.*


..............
Meanwhile Wednesday San Antonio officials confirmed that one of the men arrested in connection with the shootout is a retired San Antonio police detective.

Martin Lewis 62, worked for the department for more than 30 years before he retired in 2004.

He remains jailed in lieu of $1 million bond charged with engaging in organized crime.
..............


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

7thswan said:


> Not your interp. of a "blog". There are sites that collect police reports,atopsys,all media ,video,google earth, even send people to do foot work.


What's your point?

It's still an internet site with an agenda, passing on one side of the story.

In fact, what you stated is a perfect description of INFOWARS and Alex Jones, and we all know how credible his reports are.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I found a recent local report, it has some autopsy reports, hopefully they are correct but this is *not a copy of the actual autopsies*.


So what you found is some reports that may or may not be true, that show 6 out of the nine might have either been shot "in the trunk and head" or it didn't specify where.

It doesn't say where the shots came from, or the type of weapon, but you already are making assumptions it must have been snipers and "assassinations"

I'm not in a rush to figure out what happened until I see some verified evidence, and baseless speculation is pointless.



> Now do you see why I'd rather find out the facts for myself rather than take your word or anyone else's on what did or didn't really happen at Waco?


I haven't attempted to offer any facts since I wasn't there. 
I'm also not taking your word for anything either

You're not going to find reliable information on most of the sites you're frequenting if they are talking about gathering "800,000 in case of Martial Law".


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> So what you found is some reports that may or may not be true, that show 6 out of the nine might have either been shot "in the trunk and head" or it didn't specify where.
> 
> It doesn't say where the shots came from, or the type of weapon, but you already are making assumptions it must have been snipers and "assassinations"
> 
> I'm not in a rush to figure out what happened until I see some verified evidence, and baseless speculation is pointless.



Yes, I found a local news report who quoted the chief of police and his Lt.
THAT'S where the info came from.
I agree I don't have to automatically believe them, but I haven't yet found a PDF file with the actual autopsy reports to post here yet.
I've been a little busy today helping my 80 year old mother......my apologies, I'm doing the best that I can.:banana:



Bearfootfarm said:


> I haven't attempted to offer any facts since I wasn't there.
> I'm also not taking your word for anything either
> 
> You're not going to find reliable information on most of the sites you're frequenting if they are talking about gathering "800,000 in case of Martial Law".


As far as "assumptions" and "baseless speculation" goes, I'm gonna stop and correct you right there.
I don't assume or speculate on police rules and standards. I know them.
My wife and her entire family are former LEO or actively employed now.
You won't face a grand jury for a head shot, but you WILL catch Hades from IA (internal affairs) and the chief if you do it UNLESS you're a SWAT tactical sniper.
Now, I'm not the one who speculated as to whether they were assassinations,
but there are some who are raising those questions due to the past history there.
I DO know from past relationships I had with members of the Warlocks and Outlaws in Florida that the police did in fact strive to keep them from making peace with each other.
Whether you believe me on THAT is of no concern to me whatsoever.:kiss:


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> As far as "assumptions" and "baseless speculation" goes, I'm gonna stop and correct you right there.
> I don't assume or speculate on police rules and standards. I know them.
> My wife and her entire family are former LEO or actively employed now.


You're speculating on the facts of this case.
It has nothing to do with "rules or standards"



> Now, I'm not the one who speculated as to whether they were assassinations, but there are some who are raising those questions due to the past history there.


You're repeating it, which is no different



> I DO know from past relationships I had with members of the Warlocks and Outlaws in Florida that the police did in fact strive to keep them from making peace with each other.
> Whether you believe me on THAT is of no concern to me whatsoever


Whether you believe it is of no concern to me either
It has nothing to do with this case, and is just more hearsay.

I'm not making any decisions nor speculating until I see verifiable facts and not what your biker buddies claim, since I also know how they are

You've already decided it's some sort of police conspiracy


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You're speculating on the facts of this case.
> It has nothing to do with "rules or standards"
> 
> 
> ...


Ya know, you're outright false insinuations about me are starting to tee me off, but then you probably already know that.
But you DON'T know me or my "biker friends" and don't know how they are.

And no, posting a story or an opinion from someone else DOESN'T mean it's the same one I have. I'm an independent thinker and don't put exclusions on the info I read or hear, it's called the process of gathering information before making a judgement.
Police departments keeping info to themselves doesn't help, it only provides fuel to the theory that there is something to hide.
So don't blame me for my skepticism, it's well earned.

Now, while you were posting your rant against me and the assumptions you think I've made, I was searching out other sides to this with better explanations of the deaths of those in the parking lot.
Pardon me while I post the link below which claims, by an anonymous source, that the first 3 to die were at the hands of the rival gangs, head shots and all.
That does sound like a better explanation, as I said without fear of contradiction, that it was HIGHLY unlikely that patrolmen running to the scene would have done so.
That WAS what I said, remember?

I don't know why, or understand, why some people put so much effort into criticizing, deriding, insulting or humiliating others when they ask questions or ponder possibilities in their search for the truth.
But I do know it does more harm than good in that quest.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/stat...tness-it-was-a-setup-from-start-to-finish.ece




Waco witness: &#8216;It was a setup from start to finish&#8217;
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Published: 24 May 2015 02:40 AM
Updated: 24 May 2015 06:27 PM
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WACO &#8212; Richie was the first to die, then Diesel, then Dog.

Whatever else they were in life, the men with the biker nicknames were Cossacks, loud and proud and riders in a Texas motorcycle gang. And that&#8217;s what got them killed, shot to death in a brawl with a rival gang in the parking lot of a Texas &#8220;breastaurant&#8221; that advertised hot waitresses and cold beer.

&#8220;I saw the first three of our guys fall, and we started running,&#8221; said their brother-in-arms, another Cossack, who said he was there a week ago when the shooting started at the Twin Peaks restaurant.

The Cossack, president of a North Texas chapter of the motorcycle gang, asked not to be identified because he is in hiding and said he fears for his life. He is a rare eyewitness speaking publicly about the Waco shootings, one of the worst eruptions of biker-gang violence in U.S. history.

Since last week&#8217;s violence, Waco police have offered few conclusions in their investigation. But they have said that the violence was touched off when an uninvited group, presumed to be the Cossacks, showed up at a meeting of a larger confederation of motorcycle clubs dominated by the Bandidos.



...........



Trouble started almost immediately, he said: One of the Bandidos, wearing a patch that identified him as a chapter president, ran his bike into a Cossack standing in the parking lot. The Cossack who was hit was a prospect, a man seeking to become a full member of the club.

&#8220;They came up really fast, and the prospect turned and faced the bikes,&#8221; the Cossack chapter president said. &#8220;He fell backward into other parked bikes. The guy who hit him stopped and got off of his bike and said, &#8216;What are you doing? Get ... out of my way. We&#8217;re trying to park.&#8217;&#8221;

Cossacks quickly jumped to the prospect&#8217;s defense, he said: &#8220;Guys were saying, &#8216;You&#8217;re disrespecting us,&#8217; or, &#8216;We&#8217;re not backing down.&#8217; &#8221;

In a blink, it started, he said: &#8220;Two punches: One from them, one from us.&#8221;

A Bandido with a patch identifying him as sergeant-at-arms of the same chapter threw a punch at Richard Matthew Jordan II, 31, known as &#8220;Richie,&#8221; who was from Pasadena. Jordan punched back.

&#8220;At that point in time, the sergeant-at-arms shot Richie point-blank,&#8221; the Cossack said.

Police said Jordan died of a gunshot wound to the head.

&#8220;Then all the Bandidos standing in the parking lot started pulling guns and shooting at us,&#8221; he said. &#8220;There were maybe 60 or 70 of us in the parking lot. ... We took off running. We scattered. Three of our guys went down instantly. They caught a couple more that tripped and fell, and Bandidos were shooting at them.&#8221;

He said that the second man to die was Daniel Raymond Boyett, 44, a Cossack known as &#8220;Diesel.&#8221; Police said that the Waco man died from gunshot wounds to the head.

The third man down was &#8220;Dog,&#8221; Charles Wayne Russell, 46, of Winona. Russell&#8217;s cause of death was listed as a gunshot wound to the chest.

The Cossack said that he believes the Bandidos had no intention of making peace that day.

&#8220;It was a setup from start to finish,&#8221; he said.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Pardon me while I post the link below which claims, by *an anonymous source*, that the first 3 to die were at the hands of the rival gangs, head shots and all.


It takes you an awful lot of words to post more speculation and rumors



> Ya know, you're outright *false insinuations* about me are starting to tee me off, but then you probably already know that.


I haven't stated anything false, but if what I say bothers you, no one is forcing you to read any of it



> I don't know why, or understand, why some people put so much effort into *criticizing, deriding, insulting or humiliating *others when they ask questions or ponder possibilities in their search for the truth.
> But I do know it does more harm than good in that quest.


I have no control over your false perceptions of persecution when someone disagrees with something you've said, although I have noted how defensive it makes you

Much of what you posted is mere speculation from unknown sources.
That's an undeniable fact that has nothing to do with you personally

Why not have some patience and wait for all the information to come forth instead of parroting the rumors?

Why does that concept irritate you?


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> I don't know why, or understand, why some people put so much effort into criticizing, deriding, insulting or humiliating others when they ask questions or ponder possibilities in their search for the truth.
> But I do know it does more harm than good in that quest.


There are two great motivators I always consider - Fear or Money.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

That ain't what bothers me, Bearfoot.
It's always bothered me when someone says something false about me. That's about the nicest way I can put it on this forum.

There's 3 in the earlier post and 2 in your last, both quoting me, so if you find it strange I would read it, and then object to disparaging and incorrect remarks made about me, then you grossly misjudged me.

"Most" of what I posted were links from news stations and local papers from Dallas, Houston or Waco. Press releases from the Chief of police, his Lt., maybe the prosecutor,
jail, and interviews with members of the public, with others chiming in on what _they_ might have heard.
What the heck did you expect to be posted and discussed on a forum anyway?
That's your idea of "mere speculation from unknown sources"? 

Personally, I'd like to see threads stay unlocked, so I'm content to let to the facts speak for themselves. 
I don't have a problem with opinions, but slander is another matter......


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> That ain't what bothers me, Bearfoot.
> It's always bothered me when someone says something false about me. That's about the nicest way I can put it on this forum.


No one has said anything false about you.
In fact, you are the only one trying to make it about "you"



> That's your idea of "mere speculation from *unknown sources*"?


You posted comments from *anonymous* sources, so yes, I'd call that "unknown.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> No one has said anything false about you.
> In fact, you are the only one trying to make it about "you"




YOU have posted false statements about me, and I'm tired of it, won't stand for your bully tactics that poison threads and I guess your behavior hasn't changed much.







Bearfootfarm said:


> So what you found is some reports that may or may not be true, that show 6 out of the nine might have either been shot "in the trunk and head" or it didn't specify where.
> 
> It doesn't say where the shots came from, or the type of weapon, but you already are making assumptions it must have been snipers and "assassinations"
> 
> I'm not in a rush to figure out what happened until I see some verified evidence, and baseless speculation is pointless.



*False. What I "found" was the press statement from the police chief, published by the local news station. And when someone is shot in the head, it isn't a speculation they were assassinated, unless it was self inflicted, it's almost always a fact.*








Bearfootfarm said:


> You're speculating on the facts of this case.
> It has nothing to do with "rules or standards"
> 
> 
> ...


*False. Police standards absolutely are relevant to shots fired to the head. In fact it's the main reason this was called into question in the first place. Just because YOU don't think it's relevant doesn't make it true.

Repeating something IS NOT the same as originating it, please consult a dictionary.


And it is a FACT that you do not know my "biker buddies and how they are."

That was perhaps the the most objectionable of all of your false statements.

A retraction would be nice.*





Bearfootfarm said:


> It takes you an awful lot of words to post more speculation and rumors
> 
> 
> I haven't stated anything false, but if what I say bothers you, no one is forcing you to read any of it
> ...


*False. The majority of what I posted was from local news links. That was the "awful lot of words" you claimed was more of my "speculation".*



Bearfootfarm said:


> You posted comments from *anonymous* sources, so yes, I'd call that "unknown.


*Again, False.
That was a local news report, the link is there. The report kept the source anonymous, not me, but from his very accurate description of the wounds and the names of those shot, why would you criticize posting it?


And worst of all, that last "anonymous" source is the one that actually vindicates the cops in this case!
Your stubbornness and hostility makes no sense to me when someone is actually confirming your viewpoint!*


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> False. What I "found" was the press statement from the police chief, published by the local news station. And when someone is shot in the head, it isn't a speculation they were assassinated, unless it was self inflicted, it's *almost always a fact*.


But in this case it's speculation without more evidence



> False. Police standards absolutely are relevant to shots fired to the head. In fact it's the main reason this was called into question in the first place. Just because YOU don't think it's relevant doesn't make it true.


No, the standards have nothing to do with the* facts* of this case
Just because YOU *do* think it's relevant doesn't make it true



> False. The majority of what I posted was from local news links. That was the "awful lot of words" you claimed was more of my "speculation".


It's largely unproven allegations and speculation, and you posted it, which makes it "your's" in the context of this thread.



> Again, False.
> That was a local news report, the link is there. The report kept *the source anonymous,* not me, but from his very accurate description of the wounds and the names of those shot, why would you criticize posting it?


Isn't that exactly what I said, that it was from an anonymous source?



> Your *stubbornness and hostility* makes no sense to me when someone is actually confirming your viewpoint!


Again, I have no control over your false perceptions.



> A retraction would be nice.


I'm not responsible for you misunderstanding what I said

If you don't want to hear what I think, put me on ignore rather than complaining all the time. 
It makes no difference to me.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Nah, that's ok, I don't have anyone on ignore.

The reason is, you can learn a lesson from anyone, even a _bad example._

The relevance of police policy when SWAT snipers are present or not is pretty basic logic.
There were obvious assassinations, it's just that we learned they were probably at the hands of rival bikers, NOT the police.
Too bad the police couldn't have provided that piece of info more readily.

I'm sure it's impossible to admit one iota of a mistake, given the lesson we had on the cell phone traffic ticket thread ......now locked.
Even a former prosecutor and magistrate couldn't give convincing amount of evidence with a precedent case served on a silver platter.:bash:

I guess we'll have to PM the OP on that one when she comes back to see how it went for her.
Meanwhile some of us will try to keep the doors and blinds open so we can learn something.
Adios and good night.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Bearfootfarm said:


> What's your point?
> 
> It's still an internet site with an agenda, passing on one side of the story.
> 
> In fact, what you stated is a perfect description of INFOWARS and Alex Jones, and we all know how credible his reports are.


No, it's not. People post info that they find. The readers get to make up their own mind. Maybe you have a diffrent idea of what a "blog" is.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

7thswan said:


> No, it's not. People post info that they find. The readers get to make up their own mind. Maybe you have a diffrent idea of what a "blog" is.


I know you keep telling us what it is but haven't produced a link so "The readers get to make up their own mind".

Why not just show the site?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> I found a recent local report, it has some autopsy reports, hopefully they are correct but this is not a copy of the actual autopsies.
> So far, those "random blogs" appear to have been pretty accurate. Almost all head or neck shots and all outside the building.....
> If you know anything about LEO training, head shots are not at all recommended EXCEPT for snipers, standard training is for center mass, not to mention that a head shot with a handgun in a gun battle is not likely.
> Now a head shot thru the scope of a sniper, that's another story.
> ...




Another update........

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...ith-gun-type-police-use/ar-AAgi9v4?li=BBnb7Kz

*Four of the nine people killed in a melee between rival biker gangs outside a Texas restaurant were struck by the same caliber of rifle fired by Waco police, according to evidence obtained by The Associated Press that provides the most insight yet into whether authorities were responsible for any of the deaths and injuries.

*


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## gibbsgirl (May 1, 2013)

Thanks for the update.

So, are they testing guns from the scene, Leo or biker ones, to find which weapons were fired and/or match up to the people killed?

Also, have you found any news about what happened to all those people that were arrested? Seems like last I heard, many had sat in custody a reaalllyy long time. Then, the news reports just faded from the headlines.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

This one is kind of tough. Should we let these guys have a private war on American soil? No. But who shot first is kind of a big question.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wiscto said:


> This one is kind of tough. Should we let these guys have a private war on American soil? No. But *who shot first *is kind of a big question.


There are videos showing bikers shooting inside the restaurant

There were earlier implications that since some were shot in the head that was proof of "police snipers", but I notice this latest article documents that's not the only way for head shots to occur:



> Department of Public Safety video shows one of the men who was killed, Jesus Delgado Rodriguez, tackling another biker brandishing a gun. The two wrestle on the ground until another biker approaches and appears to stomp on Rodriguez's head.
> 
> *The biker with the gun then shoots Rodriguez in the head* and walks away.


And:


> It was not clear whether any bikers had similar guns to the police that day. Among the hundreds of weapons authorities recovered from the scene were 12 long guns, which could include rifles.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> http://www.dallasnews.com/news/stat...tness-it-was-a-setup-from-start-to-finish.ece
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This was from a post on the 2nd page.
I tried to copy the next few paragraphs from my link, but it kept pasting the first part of the story instead.
I figured if anyone was interested they could read the rest for themselves.


The point is, many of the first accounts of what happened, specifically from those that were there, turned out to be fairly accurate even though it was dismissed as being "not credible".


--------------------------
NOW I can do it....:shrug:
---------------------------


Hours of audio and footage and hundreds of documents including ballistics reports show that four of the dead and at least one of the wounded were struck with bullets from .223-caliber rifles &#8212; the only type of weapon fired by police that day.

Two of the four dead had wounds from only that kind of rifle; the other two were shot by other kinds of guns as well. The ballistics reports show that the rest of the people killed were shot by a variety of other guns.

It was not clear whether any bikers had similar guns to the police that day. Among the hundreds of weapons authorities recovered from the scene were 12 long guns, which could include rifles.

The Southwestern Institute of Forensic Sciences, which conducted the ballistics analysis, declined to comment on its findings.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

__________double post__________


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

gibbsgirl said:


> Thanks for the update.
> 
> So, are they testing guns from the scene, Leo or biker ones, to find which weapons were fired and/or match up to the people killed?
> 
> Also, have you found any news about what happened to all those people that were arrested? Seems like last I heard, many had sat in custody a reaalllyy long time. Then, the news reports just faded from the headlines.


All 177 have been released.
http://www.wacotrib.com/news/twin-p...cle_96c8a81d-be6a-5c80-b8ad-2bf6a0cce4de.html

This link had some interesting details about why you haven't heard much......

http://abovethelaw.com/2015/08/the-...d-more-about-the-177-bikers-arrested-in-waco/


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

That second ink is really interesting. I would not have wanted to be responsible for sorting out a mess that huge.


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