# Questions about gardening in rocky soil



## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

This is our 3rd year gardening in our very rocky soil. Our garden is about 75ft X 50ft. I'm surprised how much food we got from it last year, considering the problems we're having. The soil between the rocks must be decent, plus the droppings from our rabbits help. I think we could probably get about 10X as much from our garden, though.

It's so hard to get rid of the weeds or work organic matter into the soil because the soil is so hard to till & dig in. We have this awful grass - I don't know what kind it is but it has long runners & every little piece of root that doesn't get pulled up makes a new clump of grass. 

Lasagna gardening is too expensive - buying truckloads of peat moss etc. We can collect some leaves from the woods - but it would take a lot of them to make a deep mulch over the whole garden. A couple of years ago we tried piling straw a foot deep, and it sprouted a nice thick crop of oats . . . . .

Last fall we laid down black plastic over part of the garden and we just pulled it back. It looks pretty good - it looks like it killed almost everything under it but it's very early in the season for us & still cold so it's hard to tell. The soil under the plastic was thawed out but still very wet. We decided to give it a whirl and yesterday we poked a double row of inch-deep holes with a stick and planted peas in them. When a rock was in the way we just planted around it or pried it up if it was small. We moved the plastic to a different part of the garden - hopefully it will kill the grass & weeds before it's time to plant there. We still have 2 months left before our last frost date.

Does anybody have any helpful advice? Maybe somebody on here has already tried some of our ideas and will save us some time by telling us if they're not going to work.

The best-sounding idea we have so far is to go buy more black plastic & cover the whole garden with it as soon as possible. Then, after the big pile of rabbit poop has thawed and dried out & the stuff under the plastic is dead, we can peel the plastic off and put the rabbit droppings on top of the soil where we want to plant the heavy feeders, & plant in rows. We can just poke holes & plant instead of trying to till or dig - any reason not to? The root crops can go in the few raised beds we have. We don't want to build too many more raised beds - buying the topsoil, building the beds etc is expensive.

How do we keep the weeds, especially that grass, from coming back on the paths? We are thinking about laying down layers of feed sacks & weighing them down with rocks, but it seems like they would be too slippery to walk on when it's wet out. Cardboard? Old boards? 

Is there something low & annual , or something that could be mowed, that we could plant in the paths that would outcompete any grass trying to grow back? 

Also, what's the best way to keep the grass from creeping back into the garden from around the edges?

Thanks, in advance, for any help!


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

I'm guessing quackgrass.......... http://www.extension.umn.edu/yardandgarden/ygbriefs/h507quackgrass.html

For rocks, a separate rock garden and pond from hand picking those you come across---

Lifelong projects for both problems.

geo


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

That's it. Quackgrass. Ugh - thanks George! It says "Never use a rototiller where quackgrass is growing, because it amounts to propagating thousands of new plants from the chopped up rhizomes." So we got all bruised up and exhausted trying to till that field two years in a row - just to propagate quackgrass.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Hey! Check this out! 

"The roots of couch grass [another name for quack grass] have a sugary flavour to some extent resembling that of liquorice. The roots of the herb are dried and pounded to prepare bread and are consumed by humans in many regions when there is an acute paucity of food.

During the classical period or life in the Roman times, Dioscorides (40 AD &#8211; 90 AD) and Pliny (23 AD &#8211; 79 AD) advocated the use of roots of the couch grass to enhance urine flow as well as treat kidney stones. Much later, in 1597, herbalist John Gerard documented that though couch grass was considered to be a bane by the peasants as it invaded their fields and gardens destroying their crops, the roots of the plant possess purgative properties benefitting those suffering from constipation and also clears the blockages in the liver and uterus with no heat. During food crisis, people roasted the couch grass roots and grounded them as an alternative for flour and coffee."

Quack grass - survival food! Maybe I can have a "pick your own" quack grass farm and charge people for it.


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## Marabunta (Feb 24, 2011)

I'm in much the same boat as you, Farmergirl. I spent much of last fall and winter digging rocks out of my garden plot, using the big ones to build a retaining wall for my terraced-garden system, and the small ones to beef up my driveway a bit. Didn't get as far along as I'd hoped (lots and lots of rocks!) so my Plan B is container gardening for this first spring.

When I had a few storebought potatoes and onions start sprouting on me, I decided to plant them and just see what happened. I was pleasantly surprised when they came up, and even more so to see how deep green and healthy they look!

I knew that rocky-clay soil often contains minerals and nutrients that sandy loam does not. But after seeing what normally grew in this soil - and more so, what wouldn't grow - the progress of my ad hoc garden still amazes.

My approach is to think big and work small: double-dig a few square feet, sift through the soil and remove all rocks that're too hard for plant roots to penetrate, drop the grass and weeds in the bottom to rot, and repeat. In time, I'll have the entire plot free of unwanted rocks. Meanwhile, I'll amend one bed at a time, as compost becomes available. Before you know it, I'll have a fertile garden plot!


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Raised beds would be a solution but the initial cost is a bit high.
Perhaps building one raised bed a year.


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## HappyFarmer (Jun 17, 2006)

We have a rocky area where we grow our squash. We pile the waste hay/manure there in mounds & plant various squashes. Just thinking maybe you could get some manure from a local farm & make bigger piles, the piles smother existing vegetation & pulling any weeds are very easy. 

Admittedly we havn't done it like this with other veggies, but it works great with the squashes.

HF


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

I'm digging beds in my rocky ground. Remove rocks, place a layer of cardboard then a light layer of mulch(straw). This way, I only have to dig where I'm going to plant and not the whole garden spot. Can do a bed at a time. After the initial digging I shouldn't have to dig it again as long as I keep mulch on it. Shouldn't have to weed. Cardboard will keep the grass from growing up and will disintegate in time.

Don't know how it'll turn out, we'll see.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I have a 4 gallon bucket near me all the time and I fill it full of rocks as I pick them out.


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## Paquebot (May 10, 2002)

An advantage to rocky ground is moisture retention. That's especially helpful during drought periods. Soil dries by evaporation into the air. The rocks slow that process.

Martin


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

The first year we had the garden we tilled and raked it several times to get the biggest rocks out. Now we dig the garden by hand to remove rocks and bind weed roots. we used to get buckets full, but this year I will only get about 1 4-gallon bucket full of rocks and next to none on the bind weed roots.
The chick weed is still pretty bad though.
The chick weed does make good tea, but we can only use so much.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

I like the idea of piling the manure & straw very deeply - if we could get it. Then the quack grass would just grow up into the manure and straw, I think. Then it would be easy to pull out. I just don't know where to get it. We have some farming neighbors but one of the farms is so dirty and unhealthy, I don't think I'd want to bring anything here from it. The other people are so standoffish . . . .

We produce enough rabbit poop that, if we had the paths covered, we could probably pile it deeply enough on the rows.

We were planning to use our tax return to buy a Honda cultivator. Now I'm thinking maybe we should use that $ to buy something non-slippery to put on the paths, like rolled roofing. If we layed the rolled roofing on the paths we would only have to worry about pulling the grass out of the rows. We've been doing things organically so far, but I wouldn't be opposed to carefully painting Roundup on any grass that crawled out out under the roofing.

Yeah - rolled roofing on the paths, wide rows, rabbit poop piled deeply on the rows . . . . we could put the stones between the paths & rows to make raised rows.

Squashnut, we've hauled buckets & buckets of rocks out, too! If only we were masons . . . . wouldn't take long to have enough to build a little house!


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

fffarmergirl,

For a Yooper who quotes Pliny, it seems only fitting that your next reading assignment should be the works of Scott and Helen Nearing. Follow their lives as they made their homestead in the rocky regions of Vermont and Maine......"The Good Life" They made walls, fences, and their very house from the rocks they picked out of their soil........

A couple of comments: 

Black plastic will likely just keep your U.P. soil wet and cold and delay your planting efforts beyond the last frost date, especially for your row crops like green beans, carrots, chard, spinach, and such. I think, too, that it hasn't really killed your weeds and grasses, but more likely it is just keeping them dormant........

Soil solarization might work, but that involves using clear plastic in an open area, and leaving it on the ground for at least six weeks in the hottest part of the summertime--may be hard to do that far North.......and it may not burn out the deeper rhyzomes

The looser and mellower the soil, the less of a problem with quackgrass----it just pulls up in long root/rhyzome strands. Unfortunately the only way to get the soil loose is to rototill it and make it friable with lots and lots of organic matter.

White clover http://www.ppws.vt.edu/scott/weed_id/trfre.htm might be a candidate for your permanent walkways, but it, too can get a bit invasive. It should block out a lot of quackgrass, though, and if you use a square shovel/spade as an edger, you should keep the clover in bounds.(Just don't go barefoot when it is in bloom.......)

Go to your hardware and buy/order a golf club style "weed whip" http://www.hardwareworld.com/Grass-or-Weed-Whip-pYB7LHC.aspx ....Then continue using lots of straw mulch. Oats and wheat are pretty benign, and you can just whack them off. In fact, I would plant squash, cabbage, brocolli, tomatoes, peppers in "oases" filled with compost, then mulched with straw or some of those leaves from the woods. The weed whip will also knock down any heads of quackgrass that poke up.......

For your row crops in open soil, check out the various hoes that might be more useful and won't go too deep and unbury weed seeds. I like a warren hoe http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1274983&cp=2568444.2598674.2601431.1305554 and it is my hoe of choice for making furrows for planting, and the first cultivation in and among the tender, tiny seedlings. A very sharp warren hoe, on its side, will just skim through the top half inch of soil, and you won't have to rotoill the middles.... A scuffle hoe or swan neck hoe will do the same skimming work in the row middles....You can find them at ACE Hardware(not an endorsement)

Good luck in your annual battle....if you would like a change of pace, I'll send you some lambsquarter seeds..... 
geo


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Thank you so much for your help, Geo. I will definitely get that book. I'm sure I'll identify closely with them! Pliny . . . wasn't he that guy who escaped Mt Vesuvius?

So what you're suggesting is that we pile the straw deeply over the paths. Use the warren hoe to plant in the rows. When the plants are tall enough, pile the straw deeply around them, too? Whip the oats as they sprout from the straw and just leave them there to compost.

In the fall, go ahead and till the straw in even though it will break up the quackgrass rhizomes, because it will make the soil loose and friable enough that the grass will be easy to pull in the Spring. Save all the rocks from the tilling and build a cathedral or colosseum with them. Then, in the Spring, get more straw and do it again.

I've done that white clover - maybe it will work later when the soil is looser & the quack grass is more under control. It did invade my rows, though. I pulled a lot of it to feed to my rabbits.

Of course, I'll be piling my rabbit poop on the rows, too.

As for those lamsquarter seeds, I can think of a few people who might want them. I can get you the addresses of my old boss, my ex husband, a teacher who made me write on the board . . . . .


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## jwal10 (Jun 5, 2010)

mnn2501 said:


> Raised beds would be a solution but the initial cost is a bit high.
> Perhaps building one raised bed a year.


This is what I did, picked the rocks out down 6" or so and added good garden soil and a lot of compost. Beds are 3'x16', 3 made a lot of space and 2 small kitchen gardens 3'x4'. I do have a small plot for corn, cucumbers and zuchinni. I raise my tomatoes in large black tree pots. With the 6'x8' greenhouse and year around hoops I have plenty for 2 of us....James


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

We have some raised beds in a different area & the quack grass dived underneath and came up in the middle of them. So - they're good for avoiding rocks but don't help the quack grass. It's not too hard to pull out of the beds because the soil is nice & loose, but it's established on the paths & comes back very quickly. We have to kill it in the paths. . . . . . .


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

What y'all call quack grass in the north we call a lawn in the south. 
It's St Augustine grass.


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## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

Pliny . . . wasn't he that guy who escaped Mt Vesuvius?

Pliny the Elder....the kid wouldn't listen.......

geo


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

Pliny the Elder....the kid wouldn't listen.......

Pliny the Younger died in the volcano? Which Pliny is the one people like to quote?


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## susieM (Apr 23, 2006)

http://www.google.fr/images?rlz=1C1...tBIy2hAef_M3rCA&ved=0CCYQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=677

Have a look at strawbale gardening. It works for me...and I do it at the local school for the little kids, too, on a paved courtyard.


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## fffarmergirl (Oct 9, 2008)

susieM said:


> http://www.google.fr/images?rlz=1C1...tBIy2hAef_M3rCA&ved=0CCYQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=677
> 
> Have a look at strawbale gardening. It works for me...and I do it at the local school for the little kids, too, on a paved courtyard.


!!!! Look at that! Oh, wow - it looks so easy. Just grow right in the straw. I suppose at the end of the year you can just untie the bales and spread the old straw around and the next year you can put more straw bales right on top of the old stuff. Pretty soon you would have layers and layers of composting straw . . . . verrrrry nice.

How do you get the dirt in there? I want to try it with my potatoes. I wonder if it would work for carrots?


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## PrincessFerf (Apr 25, 2008)

mnn2501 said:


> Raised beds would be a solution but the initial cost is a bit high.
> Perhaps building one raised bed a year.


We have TONS of rocks around us. We are building one raised bed each year + adding composted chicken manure.... helps in the raised bed.

We have been saving newspaper for the past several months to layer at the bottom of the raised bed. It will eventually break down, but it will reduce the weeds and quack grass that grows there. 

I also pull, pull, pull weeds as much as possible. Over time, it does make a difference.


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## susieM (Apr 23, 2006)

fffarmergirl said:


> !!!! Look at that! Oh, wow - it looks so easy. Just grow right in the straw. I suppose at the end of the year you can just untie the bales and spread the old straw around and the next year you can put more straw bales right on top of the old stuff. Pretty soon you would have layers and layers of composting straw . . . . verrrrry nice.
> 
> How do you get the dirt in there? I want to try it with my potatoes. I wonder if it would work for carrots?


It works very well for carrots, but they say not for potatoes. Or corn, because it tips over.

I water the bales for three weeks and then sprinkle over compost activator or fertilizer, then spread with planting medium and either plant or directly sow seeds. Last year it didn't rain much, and I spread a good top layer of sawdust over and around the plants on the bales and Wow!, stuff grew like crazy and didn't need so much water.

After two years, the ones at the school are still going, except where the kids haver fallen into them when playing...we're planning to surround the old bales with new ones. The ones in my own garden are still going strong, but maybe next year I'll simply spread the composted straw around and top with new bales.


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## susieM (Apr 23, 2006)

ps I began the strawbales by putting cardboard under the ones in the garden...no weeds have popped through. The straw that sprouts simply gets plucked out.


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