# will a LGD submit and do its job?



## sticky_burr (Dec 10, 2010)

like title say will a LGD submit to to owner as alpha and still do its job. i know hthey are strong willed . but i am thinking any dog should surrender things ie if i tell it to give or go or what ever and should know that the animals are mine and its meerly 2nd in line


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> will a LGD submit to to owner as alpha and still do its job


They should, and most do..
If they don't they are dangerous


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## sticky_burr (Dec 10, 2010)

yea i just keep reading that these are 'strong wiled' and ' not like other dogs' i can understand having to teach a wee bit longer but will do what is needed and submit. i dont care about shakig paw or fetch. but the animal should know that we are the leaders and we can take a sheep anywhere and we shouldnt be challanged etc or we are allowed to take thier food dish etc....


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## Rockytopsis (Dec 29, 2007)

We started when our dogs were pups teaching them to sit and I put my hand in their mouths and handle their feet. I put my hand in their food while they are eating. I continue to do this now. The male is well over 100 pounds and the female is right behind. 

They do their jobs verry well. 

Nancy


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## wolffeathers (Dec 20, 2010)

"Strong willed" just means "stubborn". You have to be concrete and consistant in your training. Goose is submissive, but strong willed. "Come here" is a hard one to continue to drill into his head. If you have food, he'll practically teleport under your feet, but if no food... He'll send you this cheesy look over his should and just stroll away or around, come half way and stop, come 3/4 way and flop on the ground and wag his tail, etc, etc, etc. He is submissive but the stinker is just strongwilled. Be steady and consistant in your training and any dealings with your dog(or any animal for that fact).


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

sticky it is YOUR job and YOUR responsibility to maintain alpha status. Of course the dog will still work if you are alpha. 

If you can't become alpha over the dog you need to seriously reconsider your owning an LGD. No one said it would be easy. Try maintaining alpha status over 15 dogs...I do it. Takes emmense amount of effort and time but I pull it off. This includes 6 intact males.

LGD's will never always come to you when called. It is what it is. These are not push button dogs never will be. They don't need us to do their job it comes naturally to them. People don't seem to be able to handle that sometimes they think they have to be all controlling...you will never acheive that with a true LGD as with a border collie or german shepherd. But, do not confuse alpha with control. Alpha just means you are the end-all, you call final shots. Being alpha does not mean you will be able to get your dog to come to you all the time. You are pack leader, not pack director. There is a difference.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

My Akbash is very submissive to people. You can do anything to him, take anything out of his mouth, etc. But submission and obedience are two distinct things in an LGD's brain. 

For an LGD, my boy is actually quite obedient. He comes when called about 90% of the time, obeys most commands eventually, and respects a reprimand. But I will never expect him to be an obedience dog--that's not his job. He needs to make decisions independently in order to keep the livestock safe. That means that if there is a stray dog running along the fenceline, I can call him all day long and he will not hear me until the job at hand has been done and the stray dog is gone.


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## Goatress (Feb 4, 2011)

Wolf Flower you hit it on the head, if they are working they 'tune you out' until job is done, then...they might come back, lol...! Their definition of when its time isn't always the same as ours...grin....is it!?

sticky this can be difficult I know to understand and to even live with at times. However once you learn to let go of the need to have that all-the-time obey mentality in your dog, you will be quite suprised and pleased because your dog will be doing its job. I have learned to let go a lot more running LGD's. If that makes any sense!


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

The alpha male LGD here was raised with the bucks... when the LGD ***** came into heat, he decided he liked living with her, and she stays next to the does, that live by the house. After he chewed on a few 'money dogs' (weeners/hua huas) it was time for an attitude adjustment. He bowed up to me and growled, and I put the smack down on him. Collared him down and he went into what the GF calls collar paralysis. About a day of me sitting on him, reinforcing that "I" was alpha male, finally took. For a week, everytime he saw me coming, he'd roll on his back and urinate himself.

He still does his job, mostly. He doesn't hover over his charges, but he does keep them in sight, and is ready to 'roll' if the alert goes out....

He growls at me after dark... once I 'identify' myself, and he growls, I 'burn roll' his ear.... till he stops.

I'll not put up with a dog that thinks he can take me... although he probably could.


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

I have Akitas, and those are serious dogs that you have to make darn sure they know you're alpha. Are LGDs typically of the same sort of stubborn dominance?

Are there any books about LGDs y'all can recommend? I'm years from getting an LGD (no farm, yet!  ), but I want to make sure I'm prepared and have researched them well before I get one.


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## sticky_burr (Dec 10, 2010)

i was reading oddly about chickens lol to start in the brooder that if they start in to use 2 fingers to push them apart/down. recons to me that this should be done with pups too since mom will do this as well. would this help life long? .. just thinking lol but i dont plan to eat a dog after 24 weeks lol so maybe more important

i definately know it will be a life of work. and no they wont always listen and its an individual issue one may submit easily while annother of the same litter may not, this is the nature of it i guess. will turning them on to thier back as pups to select one that is 'naturally' sub still accepted? 
i read about thier LGD getting licked by a goat lmao  so i guess submitting not much of a problem lol. although should not a LGD 'release' once you come to deal with what ever the problem is? sounds too "push button" but lol it would be nice. even if it was a **** release the dog "dispatch" the small invader with out a dog in the way.

and thanks all


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

sticky_burr said:


> i definately know it will be a life of work. and no they wont always listen and its an individual issue one may submit easily while annother of the same litter may not, this is the nature of it i guess. will turning them on to thier back as pups to select one that is 'naturally' sub still accepted?


It does make life easier if you select a pup that has a more submissive nature. The pup that readily rolls over onto its back and stays there without a struggle is going to have the easiest personality to deal with in that regard. But you have to keep at it as the pup matures. 

It's not difficult to establish yourself as the alpha with LGDs, as long as you don't expect blind obedience; I'd say that as a rule, most LGDs are not interested in dominating humans. Some man-aggressive guarding breeds will tend to challenge your authority--Rotts and Akitas come to mind--but LGDs are generally more interested in dominating predators and other dogs. 

Just understand that if your LGD does not always come when called, it doesn't mean he is challenging your authority, and he will NOT understand punishment for what you might perceive as "disobedience". As I said, submission and obedience are two different things in the LGD's mind.


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## Judy in IN (Nov 28, 2003)

My Anatolians come EVERY TIME I call. 

They get scratches and loving....and an Anatolian cannot resist loving. 

If I need to correct, I do it with voice and maybe clap my hands. 

THEY know who the alpha ***** is! LOL!


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## westbrook (May 10, 2002)

Choose a breeder that has temperament tested their pups. A pup should be chosen according to its personality and the environment they are going to live in. Not all breeders temperament test. Many breeders let you pick a puppy. Most people pick the most playful puppy and then don't understand why that cute playful puppy is now eating the couch! (referring to all breeds not LGD specific)

My most alpha/aggressive pups will NEVER be put with a family with children (unless they have had previous LGD)! nor will they be placed with anyone that has never had a LGD. A shy, tender hearted pup never gets placed with anyone that needs a more serious working dog. Instead I look to place them with people that wants more of a pet and will be working in a nice fenced yard. There is the middle of the both of these personality types and they very in aggressiveness.

As a breeder, I keep records of their personalities from the moment they are born, spend time observing them and how they interact with not only each other but with other livestock.

I take my pups to another breeder that does temperament testing, I can't temperament test my own pups because they know me and they know their space. So off we go to an unfamiliar place.

the pups are placed in an area where they can't see the pup being tested. A pup is removed from the holding area.

One person picks the puppy out from the holding and this person is the person that retrieves the pup after each test or if the pup wanders off. 

The person performing the test tests without emotion. They just preform the test.

The third person grades the puppy after each test. And finally the breeder adds their knowledge about the puppy from observing the puppy's behavior over the months since it was born.

This test can be preformed at the breeders home using yourself and spouse, friend, older child and the breeder.

The breeder moves away and only does the testing. They should not speak or be seen by the puppies being tested. the area should be unfamiliar.

The breeder can choose a couple of puppies for you from your application questions and talking to you on the phone. 

here is the test..

http://www.workingdogs.com/testing_volhard.htm

There is lots of information on the net about 'how to temperament test a puppy' or puppies.

the second part of the test is looking at how a puppy stacks up. This is used to see if there is any problems with the pups structure. 
Watch the puppy run away from you... is the back legs straight or are they hockey - see parts of a dog... ankle (in a human we would refer to this as knocked kneed). When they are walking in front of you from left to right or visa versa, do they stand on their pads (feet) or are they down on their pasturn? (on the back feet, they are walking on not on their pads/feet but between the feet and ankle)

parts of a dog
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/mammals/dog/label/anatomy/labelanswers.shtml

Yes LGD are different. I have Anatolians that stand 27-33" at the shoulder and weigh 140-180 pounds. I am the boss! It is like raising children. I know the kind of behavior I expect out of my children and I teach them using positive reinforcement... the same with a puppy, sit.. treat! <smile> bribery works! LOL! my dogs are obedience trained!!!!!! no, they don't want to come when called... they do reluctantly, of course there is a treat waiting for being good dogs. I think I read in their eyes.. 'what? you want me to get up and come? why? I am perfectly happy just laying here taking it all in! ok, I will come *yawn*... I am here. What? a stupid treat? ok, I will eat it.. can I go back to relaxing now?' 

http://lgd.org is a great site and I highly recommend you read it. they have a wonderful library. Click on Library at the home page.

I do hope this helps.


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## sticky_burr (Dec 10, 2010)

lol why the LGD s eating your sofa you left it out in the pasture... silly questions geez

i always recon kids and dogs .. 100% consistant never correct angry or exessively.. with a dog bumping them in the side with the side of the knee to get thier attention is ok .. doing it 20 times in a row your obviously doing something wrong


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