# After abortion?



## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

First, this is not a pro or anti abortion question. You guys have argued that on many other threads. My question is, what effect does an abortion have on a mom after the abortion, if any?

I've never had an abortion, never needed one as I had a hard enough time conceiving my one and only child. But, I do know a few women who have had them and it seems to be something they want to forget and never mention again. I also know women who have miscarried and went into depression for months and some always long for the child they lost. 

Now, you may not want to talk about your abortion since that is a very private matter and you will be judged (Oh come on, you know how people are) but you surely know someone close to you who will go un-named that has had an abortion so how did they do? Did they ever have second doubts, were they glad, were they sad, did they move on and never think of it again or did they always wonder what the child would have been like? 

I hope this will start a balanced discussion where we can all learn something without it getting ugly. Do you think we can?


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## susieneddy (Sep 2, 2011)

My first wife had an abortion way before I met her. She was in a very bad marriage and was in the beginning process of a divorce. Problem is she found out she was pregnant and didn't want anything to do with the baby or the father so she decided to get an abortion. Her Dad was a Doctor so he knew where to take her and get it done. She never talked about it other than telling me about it. She didn't have to do that but she did. 

Both of her sisters also had abortions (they were single) and it never seemed to bother them. The whole family was religious especially their Dad but he didn't hesitate at all.


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

My daughter works for a surgeon. As part of the paper work a woman is asked how many children, how many pregnancies. If there is a discrepancy my daughter must ask why. Not all but a majority look and act ashamed when the say they had an abortion. They act reluctant to admit it, even if many years later. Those who say they had a miscarriage had a "oh well it happens" attitude. A still birth, SIDS or other childhood death is a more of a sad, loss of a child attitude. On the bright side a few have twins, triplets or adopt so they have more children than pregnancies.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Women are reluctant to talk about it because of the treatement they get from a portion of the population. No need to subject yourself to so much hate.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Up until about 30 years ago clinical abortions weren't usually called abortions. They were more commonly called D&C's (short for dilation & curettage) and they were indeed extremely common, (they still are common) and were done for all sorts of reasons including pregnancy, at the sole discretion of the doctor and patient. 

It was so commonplace there was nothing unusual about hearing women discussing amongst themselves the numbers of D&C's they'd had or when they were going in for another D&C. Privately amongst women everyone knew that most of the time a D&C was done to get rid of an unwanted "accident" but publically everyone pretended it was to clean out cysts, polyps, adhesions or congested endometrium, etc., etc. That was a good enough explanation for women and doctors to give to unsuspecting fathers, husbands or employers who would have had a conniption fit if they knew it was actually to get rid of an "accident". More enlightened fathers, husbands and employers who were in the know still pretended not to know.

Those women who got D&C's didn't feel bad or depressed about it. They were doing what needed to be done even if they had to be slightly devious about it in order to avoid condemnation from the "holier than thou" crowd.

Abortion was the ugly word full of condemnation that was applied to what desperate "bad girls" without a family practitioner had to do in dirty back room butcher shops to get rid of an "accident" that could ruin their life if they didn't get rid of it. They weren't really bad girls, they were just girls without means who were shamed, ostracized and made to feel like they were evil by others who thought they were better than everyone else. Even condemned by those self-righteous others who had means and thought nothing wrong of themselves or their wives/girlfriends getting D&C's for themselves. Those self-righteous others are still doing that.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

I agree with painterswife about why women don't talk about having an abortion. Also, it's basically no one else's business. It must be a horrible decision to make. 

I think how a woman feels after depends on why she had the abortion. If it was a rape or incest, it would be a real sense of relief. Relief also if she wasn't in a stable relationship/marriage, etc. If it was because she couldn't afford or felt she couldn't properly care for a child (or another child) I think there would be more sorrow. 

Not all woman that miscarry are "oh well it happens" about it. I know women that still morn the loss of a miscarriage or stillborn.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Yes, I think it's important to not confuse regret with fear of stigma.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

I don't really know. I've been around to see what happens after miscarriage, but those were people who intended to carry to term.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Tiempo said:


> Yes, I think it's important to not confuse regret with fear of stigma.


Yes. Good that you mentioned that. This is so important it deserves repeating. Do not confuse regret (or depression) with fear of stigma.

Decades ago when women were just getting "D&C's" (for whatever reason was given including getting rid of a fetus) it was commonly accepted and there was no stigma to it. Abortion was a dirty word that carried stigma and condemnation.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Very interesting, thank you. Please keep them coming.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

My mother's mother was 16 when she had her 1st child. She was near 50 when she got pregnant with my mother. Her husband was older. I know she was tired at that point in her life. (8) She strongly considered an abortion. Her husband said if you have this baby you can go to NY to visit your family. I guess money was tight and this was an incentive. I am so glad that my grandfather, whom I never met, came up with an attractive offer. 

My mother's life and my own have not been especially note-worthy but my/our children and grandchildren are using every bit of opportunity that God and life puts in front of them. I am so grateful to live long enough to see their accomplishments and long enough/or at all to see the generations progress...

How do you know whether sadness originates from fear of stigma or genuine regret from a realization of opportunity lost and responsibility ignored?


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## farmerDale (Jan 8, 2011)

The few ladies I know are not upset by what others think in the least, but they are extremely guilty, devastated and always wonder what the child would have been like if they had made the correct decision.

This jives with the many articles and radio talks I have heard about women who have had this tragedy happen in their lives. They care much less about what others think than they do about the guilt over what they have done, and the life they snuffed out.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

I guess it depends then, I've never met a woman who's had an abortion who seems terribly bothered by it, including someone very close to me who had two before meeting her husband and going on to have three children. She loves her kids to bits and is a fantastic mother, but the abortions don't bother her at all.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

> How do you know whether sadness originates from fear of stigma or genuine regret from a realization of opportunity lost and responsibility ignored?


You often don't.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

I agree, Tiempo. We who did not make this decision don't. I believe the women who were involved in the abortion know, but for many reasons, choose not to discuss it. That is their right.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

My birth mother never looked back nor felt any guilt about having an abortion, but then she never looked back and felt no guilt about abandoning three little boys either. I was three, one brother six and the oldest eight. Our aborted sister would have been five had she not been aborted... Quite illegally at the time.


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## mrsgcpete (Sep 16, 2012)

I have met women who have had both reactions. I think it all depends on where you hang out, the kind of folks you run in too... I have met women there that had abortions that were in a group that dedicated their lives to helping women heal from the sadness they felt about their abortions. I have been in groups were women had abortions, some multiple and it was a chapter in their lives or it was the best option at the time. It effects every one differently.


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> My birth mother never looked back nor felt any guilt about having an abortion, but then she never looked back and felt no guilt about abandoning three little boys either. I was three, one brother six and the oldest eight. Our aborted sister would have been five had she not been aborted... Quite illegally at the time.


I'm sorry YH, my husband's birth mother did similar. IDK if she ever had an abortion, but she did abandon her two youngest boys (my husband was the youngest..six months old) and kept the oldest (5).


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## FarmerKat (Jul 3, 2014)

I do not know if one can honestly know how a woman felt after an abortion unless they are speaking about themselves. I have friends who have said matter of factly that they had an abortion and the way it was said, you would think there were no emotions involved. But I have no idea if there were or not, I just do not think that women discuss that part as much. I have only had one friend who was openly sad to have had an abortion but she may have been sad about the circumstances not the abortion itself. She had an affair, got pregnant and her husband said she had to choose to have the child or stay married. She chose to stay married. I am sure it was a difficult time in her life but there was so much involved other than the abortion. 

Also, you cannot go by medical records ... miscarriages are recorded as abortions. I have never had an elective abortion but I lost a baby we very much wanted. All my medical records say 3 pregnancies, 2 children, 1 abortion.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Tiempo said:


> I'm sorry YH, my husband's birth mother did similar. IDK if she ever had an abortion, but she did abandon her two youngest boys (my husband was the youngest..six months old) and kept the oldest (5).


No worries, I was very fortunate actually, dad found us a wonderful loving step mother. I honestly beleive I was much better off the way things worked out.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

> Now, you may not want to talk about your abortion since that is a very private matter and you will be judged (Oh come on, you know how people are) but you surely know someone close to you who will go un-named that has had an abortion so how did they do?


At first, she was ok. She was 20 or 21 when she did it.
(this was about 10 years ago) 
She never spoke about it, (she never told us the truth. She said she was going to KY to see a friend, a friend she had never talked about to us, and she 'miscarried' while she was there)

About 18 months later, she was pregnant again.....
She kept that baby, had another 3 years later, kept him too.
2 boys.
She has some 'survivors guilt' and the nagging question "was that, my girl?"




> Did they ever have second doubts, were they glad, were they sad, did they move on and never think of it again or did they always wonder what the child would have been like?


Regrets. yes.
Tries to 'justify' ''it wasn't the right time" but no sooner is that said it's "but, looking back, it would have worked out; that might have been my only girl".


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

The question presented is more complex than a single answer can provide. 

I have one friend who had an abortion and she regrets it terribly but she would also be the first to tell you that she she was young and simply complied with her wanted in order to safe face/social standing within the community.

Another woman had an abortion because she was the victim of a break in and rape and it brought her no relief or comfort but she felt it was a justified ending to a horrible experience. She prefers not to discuss it because she seems to be judged on her lack of character for allowing the rape to happen and judged again for the abortion so it's only something she discusses with close friends but she lives with no regret. 

I know another woman who was leaving a very violent husband when she learned she was pregnant and chose abortion because she felt that having the child would compromise her safety and welfare by being forever accessible to the father by way of custody and visitation, which she felt was justified since the man had very nearly killed her twice. She also lives with no regrets but also prefers to not discuss these things with outsiders because she's been judged harshly.

Of those I know, none prefer to discuss their reasons or their feelings publicly but only the one who had an abortion to satisfy someone else has regrets but the other two did weighed their options and thought carefully before making any decisions. Neither is pleased, happy or unconcerned about the decisions they made, they simply feel they made choices that were best for them under bad circumstances.


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

When I was a teen, I thought nothing of abortion. To me at the time it was just tissue. Now that I'm an old woman, I see things very differently. I am so glad I was never in the position to make that decision because at the time I'm sure I would have done so without a second thought. But, I'm not sure I could live with myself today if I had. People change and our past catches up to us. I find it really hard to believe that child doesn't haunt the mother from time to time, even if she is convinced it was the best choice at the time. I was just wondering how it really does effect women years later since I would never ask someone I knew personally who had an abortion. Sounds like it depends on the person.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

Miss Kay said:


> When I was a teen, I thought nothing of abortion. To me at the time it was just tissue. Now that I'm an old woman, I see things very differently. I am so glad I was never in the position to make that decision because at the time I'm sure I would have done so without a second thought. But, I'm not sure I could live with myself today if I had. People change and our past catches up to us. I find it really hard to believe that child doesn't haunt the mother from time to time, even if she is convinced it was the best choice at the time. I was just wondering how it really does effect women years later since I would never ask someone I knew personally who had an abortion. Sounds like it depends on the person.


Just wisdom talkin'.

As we get older, seeing a lifetime of so much senseless death, we begin to realize how precious and fragile life is.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

How precious, fragile and irreplaceable life is. A gift to be treasured.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

When I was 14 I got my girlfriend pregnant. We sat down with our families together and decided to have it. A week later they had an abortion behind our back. It was devastating to myself and my mother. Was I young? Yes but I never shucked my responsibility. I think the father of the child should have a say and the abortion be done in a case by case basis. There are always 3 people involved and the 2 who created the third, who had no choice, should agree. If the mother doesn't want it, then the father can raise it without her. But he should have a say. Years later my ex, who is still mine and my wife's friend, now has 5 children being raised by her mother and grandmother while she is in prison due to drugs. All of which started after she killed the baby.


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## SLFarmMI (Feb 21, 2013)

Vahomesteaders said:


> When I was 14 I got my girlfriend pregnant. We sat down with our families together and decided to have it. A week later they had an abortion behind our back. It was devastating to myself and my mother. Was I young? Yes but I never shucked my responsibility. I think the father of the child should have a say and the abortion be done in a case by case basis. There are always 3 people involved and the 2 who created the third, who had no choice, should agree. If the mother doesn't want it, then the father can raise it without her. But he should have a say. Years later my ex, who is still mine and my wife's friend, now has 5 children being raised by her mother and grandmother while she is in prison due to drugs. All of which started after she killed the baby.


And if they don't agree, then what? Your plan only works if the woman wants to continue the pregnancy. What if she doesn't?


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

SLFarmMI said:


> And if they don't agree, then what? Your plan only works if the woman wants to continue the pregnancy. What if she doesn't?


Tough call, isn't it?

But if it takes two to make a baby, why shouldn't it take two to kill it?


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Vahomesteaders said:


> When I was 14 I got my girlfriend pregnant. We sat down with our families together and decided to have it. A week later they had an abortion behind our back. It was devastating to myself and my mother. Was I young? Yes but I never shucked my responsibility. I think the father of the child should have a say and the abortion be done in a case by case basis. There are always 3 people involved and the 2 who created the third, who had no choice, should agree. If the mother doesn't want it, then the father can raise it without her. But he should have a say. Years later my ex, who is still mine and my wife's friend, now has 5 children being raised by her mother and grandmother while she is in prison due to drugs. All of which started after she killed the baby.


Sounds like your own mother was the one who dodged the biggest bullet in spite of being willing to raise her own underage child plus a grandchild.


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## KentuckyDreamer (Jan 20, 2012)

I shall never forget the day I came home from college after learning about abortions. Being as anti abortion as they come, I was ranting and raving to my grandmother. I do not know if I got her at the wrong moment or not but she blurted out " I have had several and never regretted the first one". 
Many years later when she was in her eighties, I had taken her to the doctors. The nurse asked why she had gotten a hysterectomy at such a young age. By that time my grandmother was quite outspoken and simply replied "I got tired of getting pregnant". When asked how many times she had been pregnant she replied, "I don't know". 
This of course broke my heart, but that was her. She had married at age 17 and only had one child, my father. 

She had twelve siblings, all raised dirt poor. Several of the girls did not have children which is rare for the times...I assume they all had abortions and no regrets. I cannot imagine.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Vahomesteaders said:


> When I was 14 I got my girlfriend pregnant. We sat down with our families together and decided to have it. A week later they had an abortion behind our back. It was devastating to myself and my mother. Was I young? Yes but I never shucked my responsibility. I think the father of the child should have a say and the abortion be done in a case by case basis. There are always 3 people involved and the 2 who created the third, who had no choice, should agree. If the mother doesn't want it, then the father can raise it without her. But he should have a say. Years later my ex, who is still mine and my wife's friend, now has 5 children being raised by her mother and grandmother while she is in prison due to drugs. All of which started after she killed the baby.


I'm so sorry.
I'm afraid if the law provided "fathers rights", then the tables could be turned: HE wants the abortion, and she does not....forcing her to abort.
I suppose the way around that would be to 'allow' him to sign off all his rights, and she then cannot go after him for support / visitation.....
It all gets so muddled and messy.

PTSD can happen to anyone who has faced a trauma that their brain cannot process. 
Those who have sustained a 'head trauma' (concussion, etc) are more at risk for PTSD. 
She could have / could still suffer from PTSD after the abortion....

It's just so sad.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Vahomesteaders, it must have been a very heartbreaking time in your life and all involved. I give credit to your Mom for trying to support you and your gf and her unborn gc. 

I know by your words this reality will always be with you and the reasoning that if she had not aborted the two of yours baby, life for the immediate three of you and other future children may have taken a totally different direction. 

When I was coming of age in the 1960's it was common in talking about what we did in our lives as "it's my life and I can do what I want". With such freedom comes an equal amt. of responsibility that isn't entirely visible in teens and twenties. It leaves senior citizens some disquieting moments in retrospection and prayers that the grand children and unborn great grand children understand the phrase of cause and effect...


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## Tiempo (May 22, 2008)

KentuckyDreamer said:


> I shall never forget the day I came home from college after learning about abortions. Being as anti abortion as they come, I was ranting and raving to my grandmother. I do not know if I got her at the wrong moment or not but she blurted out " I have had several and never regretted the first one".
> Many years later when she was in her eighties, I had taken her to the doctors. The nurse asked why she had gotten a hysterectomy at such a young age. By that time my grandmother was quite outspoken and simply replied "I got tired of getting pregnant". When asked how many times she had been pregnant she replied, "I don't know".
> This of course broke my heart, but that was her. She had married at age 17 and only had one child, my father.
> 
> She had twelve siblings, all raised dirt poor. Several of the girls did not have children which is rare for the times...I assume they all had abortions and no regrets. I cannot imagine.


I think a lot of people don't realize just how common abortion was in the days before it was legal.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

For those who want fathers to have greater rights, what happens if the father would rather she have an abortion? It happens way more often than one thinks and a lot of young men seem to prefer the abortion route rather than skipping college, getting a job and raising a child. 

I have two sons who have a certain number of friends who have found their girlfriends were pregnant and only one was willing to step up to the plate as a parent, the rest seemed very keen to avoid 18 years of child support those women who chose to raise their child, seem to be doing it without child support and an involved parent.


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## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

susieneddy said:


> My first wife had an abortion way before I met her. She was in a very bad marriage and was in the beginning process of a divorce. Problem is she found out she was pregnant and didn't want anything to do with the baby or the father so she decided to get an abortion. Her Dad was a Doctor so he knew where to take her and get it done. She never talked about it other than telling me about it. She didn't have to do that but she did.
> 
> Both of her sisters also had abortions (they were single) and it never seemed to bother them. The whole family was religious especially their Dad but he didn't hesitate at all.


"The whole family was religious" - come on - give me a break


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

wr said:


> For those who want fathers to have greater rights, what happens if the father would rather she have an abortion? It happens way more often than one thinks and a lot of young men seem to prefer the abortion route rather than skipping college, getting a job and raising a child.
> 
> I have two sons who have a certain number of friends who have found their girlfriends were pregnant and only one was willing to step up to the plate as a parent, the rest seemed very keen to avoid 18 years of child support those women who chose to raise their child, seem to be doing it without child support and an involved parent.


How about if there is at least one party that wants that child to live, they live.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Woolieface said:


> How about if there is at least one party that wants that child to live, they live.


Sure thing...IF that party can carry the pregnancy to birth.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Vahomesteaders said:


> When I was 14 I got my girlfriend pregnant. We sat down with our families together and decided to have it. A week later they had an abortion behind our back. It was devastating to myself and my mother. Was I young? Yes but I never shucked my responsibility. I think the father of the child should have a say and the abortion be done in a case by case basis. There are always 3 people involved and the 2 who created the third, who had no choice, should agree. If the mother doesn't want it, then the father can raise it without her. But he should have a say. Years later my ex, who is still mine and my wife's friend, now has 5 children being raised by her mother and grandmother while she is in prison due to drugs. All of which started after she killed the baby.


You shucked your responsibility when you had sex with her.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

basketti said:


> Sure thing...IF that party can carry the pregnancy to birth.


That's just the abortion debate all over again and doesn't warrant mentioning. The answer I gave was for the particular question asked... what to do if father's rights end in a father requesting an abortion the mother doesn't want.


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## wiscto (Nov 24, 2014)

wr said:


> The question presented is more complex than a single answer can provide.
> 
> I have one friend who had an abortion and she regrets it terribly but she would also be the first to tell you that she she was young and simply complied with her wanted in order to safe face/social standing within the community.
> 
> ...


See now.... Real people complicate the imaginations of certain people here. Why do you have to go and make things hard?


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## susieneddy (Sep 2, 2011)

JoePa said:


> "The whole family was religious" - come on - give me a break


Believe it or not. I know it is the truth.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Woolieface said:


> That's just the abortion debate all over again and doesn't warrant mentioning. The answer I gave was for the particular question asked... what to do if father's rights end in a father requesting an abortion the mother doesn't want.


And my answer addresses it as well. The father of the fetus should have no rights over the woman's body. Period.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Jolly said:


> Tough call, isn't it?
> 
> But if it takes two to make a baby, why shouldn't it take two to kill it?


But it only takes one to carry it and go through the physical trauma of the pregnancy. So that person gets to decide what happens to her body.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

basketti said:


> And my answer addresses it as well. The father of the fetus should have no rights over the woman's body. Period.


Yeah, I already knew you thought that


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Woolieface said:


> Yeah, I already knew you thought that


Amazingly, I already knew you were against the right of a woman to choose what happens to her body, too!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

basketti said:


> Amazingly, I already knew you were against the right of a woman to choose what happens to her body, too!


I'm not sure it's that simple. It's a pretty hot topic and it is interesting to hear other opinions. 

There will never be any middle ground until both sides hear and understand the concerns of others.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

wr said:


> I'm not sure it's that simple. It's a pretty hot topic and it is interesting to hear other opinions.
> 
> There will never be any middle ground until both sides hear and understand the concerns of others.


Well, the middle ground is where the fence runs and I hate sitting on that thing....


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

basketti said:


> Amazingly, I already knew you were against the right of a woman to choose what happens to her body, too!


I'll start a thread on psychic ability any day now.


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## Fennick (Apr 16, 2013)

Woolieface said:


> I'll start a thread on psychic ability any day now.


I think you should. It would be an interesting topic.


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## Woolieface (Feb 17, 2015)

Fennick said:


> I think you should. It would be an interesting topic.


Will I or won't I? Are you psychic?


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## Narshalla (Sep 11, 2008)

Jolly said:


> Tough call, isn't it?
> 
> But if it takes two to make a baby, why shouldn't it take two to kill it?


Because it might take two to start the pregnancy, but it's the woman who bears all the risk of pregnancy and childbirth, and then is tasked with the lion's share of the child rearing for the next two decades, or faces the condemnation if she doesn't,

After all, if a woman has a kid, leaves it with the father and walks away, society considers her to be a monster.

But if a man does it? I mean, yeah, people don't approve, but ultimately, it doesn't effect him nearly as much as it does her.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Narshalla said:


> Because it might take two to start the pregnancy, but it's the woman who bears all the risk of pregnancy and childbirth, and then is tasked with the lion's share of the child rearing for the next two decades, or faces the condemnation if she doesn't,
> 
> _After all, if a woman has a kid, leaves it with the father and walks away, society considers her to be a monster.
> 
> But if a man does it? I mean, yeah, people don't approve, but ultimately, it doesn't effect him nearly as much as it does her._


True.
It is expected, by society, that the 'maternal instinct' be fully intact 100% of the time.
The generation that is 13-20 right now, and 20-30 right now?
You will see MORE women, just walk away.
We thought the 80's were the 'me' generation? BAAAA 
Just wait.

You are slowly seeing more men get full custody of kids because mom is just not a good fit, not the best for the kids......

Women have proven for decades we don't "need" a man to 'support us or the kids' financially. 
Does it help? Well sure.
BUT we don't NEED them.
Over and over we have told them; WE DON'T NEED YOU.
We don't.
We have day care, we have baby sitters, we have nanny's.
We can make our own money.
We don't 'need' them like women 'needed' a man in 1940.

It breaks my heart when we reduce 'children' to 'financial burden'.
The joy that my children have brought me; even when I was dirt poor, far out weighs any financial concern I have ever had.
That's me though.

I have never been raped, I never got pregnant when I was 14, I've never been pregnant, and scared/freaked out. 
I have never been pregnant and ______ (fill in with something negative). 
I cannot imagine.....

"Father's rights" on children in the womb is a bad idea because there are always 2 sides to every coin.
Yes, he could have the 'right' to bring this child to full term and birth.....BUT that also gives him the 'right' to terminate, even if the mother does not want to terminate.......
That's no good.


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## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

susieneddy said:


> Believe it or not. I know it is the truth.



Well all I can say they must adhere to some pagan religion - can't be Christian - having sex and single followed by abortions - someone needs to read the bible if they claim to be Christians - they sure aren't living like Christians - Christ said "depart from Me - I never knew you" - 
'


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

JoePa said:


> Well all I can say they must adhere to some pagan religion - can't be Christian - having sex and single followed by abortions - someone needs to read the bible if they claim to be Christians - they sure aren't living like Christians - Christ said "depart from Me - I never knew you" -
> '


Can you elaborate on why they must be of some "pagan religion"?


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## RichNC (Aug 22, 2014)

JoePa said:


> Well all I can say they must adhere to some pagan religion - can't be Christian - having sex and single followed by abortions - someone needs to read the bible if they claim to be Christians - they sure aren't living like Christians - Christ said "depart from Me - I never knew you" -
> '


Are you serious, you have never known a Christian to have sex before marriage, ha ha ha!!


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## susieneddy (Sep 2, 2011)

JoePa said:


> Well all I can say they must adhere to some pagan religion - can't be Christian - having sex and single followed by abortions - someone needs to read the bible if they claim to be Christians - they sure aren't living like Christians - Christ said "depart from Me - I never knew you" -
> '


you really have no clue about life do you. 

You may have heard of their pagan religion. It is called the Church of Christ


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Narshalla said:


> Because it might take two to start the pregnancy, but it's the woman who bears all the risk of pregnancy and childbirth, and then is tasked with the lion's share of the child rearing for the next two decades, or faces the condemnation if she doesn't,
> 
> After all, if a woman has a kid, leaves it with the father and walks away, society considers her to be a monster.
> 
> But if a man does it? I mean, yeah, people don't approve, but ultimately, it doesn't effect him nearly as much as it does her.



Well, I nerve gave birth but I, not the birth mother did the lions share .. the three dollars of support in 21 years did not go far, and she never balanced work, and child care, childhood costs. But you know what 21 years ago today I skipped the stretch marks, morning sickness and thankfully one woman listening to a birth father did not removed the life from the fetal tissue that I have to leave to pick him up from work.

His birth mother is an angel... her hardship she couldn't bear to deal with then was important enough to drive three hundred plus miles to see him toss a tassel.


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## Narshalla (Sep 11, 2008)

Laura Zone 10 said:


> True.
> It is expected, by society, that the 'maternal instinct' be fully intact 100% of the time.
> The generation that is 13-20 right now, and 20-30 right now?
> You will see MORE women, just walk away.
> ...


It has nothing to do with men being told they're not needed -- people have always viewed the man leaving as bad, and the woman leaving as apocalyptic. This isn't a new thing -- maybe this new excuse is new, but the reaction isn't.

If there's a baby, it's the woman's responsibility.


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## Narshalla (Sep 11, 2008)

kasilofhome said:


> Well, I nerve gave birth but I, not the birth mother did the lions share .. the three dollars of support in 21 years did not go far, and she never balanced work, and child care, childhood costs. But you know what 21 years ago today I skipped the stretch marks, morning sickness and thankfully one woman listening to a birth father did not removed the life from the fetal tissue that I have to leave to pick him up from work.
> 
> His birth mother is an angel... her hardship she couldn't bear to deal with then was important enough to drive three hundred plus miles to see him toss a tassel.


With respect, do you want a cookie?

Because yes, it's great that you took care of your child, but you just proved my point -- you hold up your example of you meeting your obligations as this wonderful thing, so different from all what all the others did -- which is exactly what I was saying, the woman is expected to do all the work, and in the case where admits she's not up to it, the man stepping up to the plate is a wonderful, worthy thing deserving of much admiration and many accolades.

And when the man decides he's not up to it and walks away . . . she raises the kid, but that's just what's expected of her.


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## sss3 (Jul 15, 2007)

Didn't read all the posts. The only problem I have is, when women use abortion as a form of birth control. One woman had 5 abortions. She didn't want children. IMO the pregnancies could have been prevented. Also, knew a woman who literally lost her mind because of an abortion.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> Also, knew a woman who literally lost her mind because of an abortion.


Or she might have bee crazy to begin with.
Blaming such things on one incident is seldom accurate.

In the end it still come down to the fact that no one should have the right to choose other than the woman who is pregnant, since she carries the most risk.


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

The one at the most risk in our society is the physically limited and without a voice. I think the unborn child is at the head of the line. After that come the children and the elderly...

JoePa, you are right in theory but all we have to do is look at the TV preachers and even pillars of our own communities. Many times personal desires/addictions trump the 10 commandments. I've seen multiple times when families will castigate a sinner and then when someone in their own family does the same action there are excuses and "extenuating circumstances". Whether it is myself, the politician or a TV personality there is a price to pay for sin. We as the doers pay and so does society as a whole. 

Susieneddy, why do you say that Christianity is pagan? Also which religion do you think is preferable in living a moral, positive life? Examples?


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## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

RichNC said:


> Are you serious, you have never known a Christian to have sex before marriage, ha ha ha!!


Yes I have - but they are sinning - and then an abortion - I don't think I would call them religious - would you?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

JoePa said:


> Yes I have - but they are sinning - and then an abortion - I don't think I would call them religious - would you?


I would not call them 'devout'.
I would not call them ' orthodox'.

I know a lot, A LOT of 'religious' folks who sin their butts off all week, then show up to church thinking God is "Tinkerbell" and He waves a little wand like "this" and their sins are magically erased, and they can go home, feel good, and then start the sinning all over again........

We all sin JoePa. Somehow in our minds and hearts, we hold those who claim Christ as their own, to a different and higher standard. AND they SHOULD live differently; but at the end of the day, we are all human.....that makes us messy.

Mistakes / bad choices happen.
When it happens over and over it is a pattern of behavior and ceases to be a 'mistake'.
It's a choice.


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## JoePa (Mar 14, 2013)

Well - just let me say this - half of the people who claim to be Christian are not really Christians - why do I say this - because you just have to see how they live - that's why - look at our country - it is estimated that 85% of the people claim to be Christian yet look at the filth that is on TV and in the movies - look at the abortions - look at the crooked politicians - look at the greed and self centeredness - same sex marriages - I could go on and on - if we had so many true Christians in this country this wouldn't be the case - 

Christ addressed these so called Christians - "Not all those who say Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - only those that do the will of my Father" - "At the end many will come and ......... but I will say depart for I never knew you" - 

Anyone can say that they are a Christian but it is how you live that bears out that claim - for those who like to bash Christianity let me say this - Christ taught that we should love one another - help the poor - be kind and forgiving - don't murder - etc. - before that there was a pagan world - Amen :whistlin:


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

JoePa said:


> Well - just let me say this - half of the people who claim to be Christian are not really Christians - why do I say this - because you just have to see how they live - that's why - look at our country - it is estimated that 85% of the people claim to be Christian yet look at the filth that is on TV and in the movies - look at the abortions - look at the crooked politicians - look at the greed and self centeredness - same sex marriages - I could go on and on - if we had so many true Christians in this country this wouldn't be the case -
> 
> Christ addressed these so called Christians - "Not all those who say Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - only those that do the will of my Father" - "At the end many will come and ......... but I will say depart for I never knew you" -
> 
> Anyone can say that they are a Christian but it is how you live that bears out that claim - for those who like to bash Christianity let me say this - Christ taught that we should love one another - help the poor - be kind and forgiving - don't murder - etc. - before that there was a pagan world - Amen :whistlin:


I cannot Judge another's eternal destination. Jesus said not to do that; only He can make that call.....
I know He said you will know them by their fruit.....
I know He said He looks at the heart, not outward appearances.

I know I am a hot mess......and sometimes that big ole log in my eye? Heck if I could get it out, I'd have firewood for 4 winters!! 

All I can do is "Love the Lord my God w/ all my heart, soul, mind and strength, and Love my neighbor as I love myself".
I don't have to love the sin. Just the sinner.


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## susieneddy (Sep 2, 2011)

JoePa said:


> Well all I can say they must adhere to some pagan religion - can't be Christian - having sex and single followed by abortions - someone needs to read the bible if they claim to be Christians - they sure aren't living like Christians - Christ said "depart from Me - I never knew you" -
> '





light rain said:


> The one at the most risk in our society is the physically limited and without a voice. I think the unborn child is at the head of the line. After that come the children and the elderly...
> 
> JoePa, you are right in theory but all we have to do is look at the TV preachers and even pillars of our own communities. Many times personal desires/addictions trump the 10 commandments. I've seen multiple times when families will castigate a sinner and then when someone in their own family does the same action there are excuses and "extenuating circumstances". Whether it is myself, the politician or a TV personality there is a price to pay for sin. We as the doers pay and so does society as a whole.
> 
> Susieneddy, why do you say that Christianity is pagan? Also which religion do you think is preferable in living a moral, positive life? Examples?



light rain, I didn't say Christianity is pagan. I was responding to JoePa comment that I copied above. He was assuming the people I was referring to were a pagan religion because I said they were very religious and he didn't believe me.


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## susieneddy (Sep 2, 2011)

double post


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Sorry. I went back and re-read and realized I misinterpreted the post.


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## susieneddy (Sep 2, 2011)

susieneddy said:


> Believe it or not. I know it is the truth.





JoePa said:


> Well all I can say they must adhere to some pagan religion - can't be Christian - having sex and single followed by abortions - someone needs to read the bible if they claim to be Christians - they sure aren't living like Christians - Christ said "depart from Me - I never knew you" -
> '





susieneddy said:


> you really have no clue about life do you.
> 
> You may have heard of their pagan religion. It is called the Church of Christ


light rain, here is the whole conversation so you can see why I made that comment. My comment was sarcasm


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## light rain (Jan 14, 2013)

Yes, I realized it was sarcasm when I went back and re-read your post. 

My family growing up didn't joke too much or employ sarcasm so most of the time I take statements at face value. Can cause some real communication challenges with family sometimes... :hrm:


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Narshalla said:


> With respect, do you want a cookie?
> 
> Because yes, it's great that you took care of your child, but you just proved my point -- you hold up your example of you meeting your obligations as this wonderful thing, so different from all what all the others did -- which is exactly what I was saying, the woman is expected to do all the work, and in the case where admits she's not up to it, the man stepping up to the plate is a wonderful, worthy thing deserving of much admiration and many accolades.
> 
> And when the man decides he's not up to it and walks away . . . she raises the kid, but that's just what's expected of her.


What respect... no to the cookie just that in this case the mother had had an abortion prior... she really did not want kill but she was feeling trapped providing an option might save a woman from regret. 

One person's trash is another's treasure. But bitterness is harmful.

We really were busy yesterday with our family's special holiday. He is more than just tissue.. he always was and will always be a person

Women choose to do all the work or to share the action. In many cases.
Women who choose partners with out care or who choose to be a single woman from the get go absolutely chose to do it all.

A woman who's partner dies, well it's hard. Be careful who you breed with that is quite helpful advice.


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## Narshalla (Sep 11, 2008)

kasilofhome said:


> What respect... no to the cookie just that in this case the mother had had an abortion prior... she really did not want kill but she was feeling trapped providing an option might save a woman from regret.
> 
> One person's trash is another's treasure. But bitterness is harmful.
> 
> ...


You know, my point was that society regards childrearing as the woman's responsibility and disproportionately praises men who go it alone.

And I don't know if you intended to prove my point, but you just proved it perfectly, because you stated that you believe that if the man walks out, well, unless he died, then it's clearly somehow her fault -- that she didn't pick well, or she wasn't careful . . .

And yet, at the same time, you're against abortion, so a woman who figures out really early in the situation that the guy is not going to stick around, she gets stuck with the baby regardless.

It's almost like you think children are a punishment for women having sex.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Narshalla said:


> You know, my point was that society regards childrearing as the woman's responsibility and disproportionately praises men who go it alone.
> 
> And I don't know if you intended to prove my point, but you just proved it perfectly, because you stated that you believe that if the man walks out, well, unless he died, then it's clearly somehow her fault -- that she didn't pick well, or she wasn't careful . . .
> 
> ...


This doesn't seem to be an uncommon thought, and I don't know how people that can think that way.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Children are a gift.
ONLY women, have been blessed with the ability to be the host for a new life, created from just two tiny components.
Men play a part, but it is women who have been blessed with the ability to take his contribution and with hers bring forth life.....

Being a mother, IMHO, is an honor.

I cannot imagine giving my baby up for adoption. 
I think women who do that are the most selfless, giving, loving people on the planet.
Carrying a baby to term and giving that baby away is infinitely harder than having an abortion (the act itself).

The lasting effects of giving a baby up / having an abortion can be equally devestating.

I guess the way to prevent 90% of unwanted pregnancies is to say no. 
You simply say no. 
If you say yes, then there are plenty of FREE resources to protect yourself, so that you do not get pregnant.

The other 10%, rape (marital or not) b/c failure, etc.......the law allows the woman to choose...and because I have never become pregnant under duress, I cannot speak to why a woman chooses what she does.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Laura Zone 10 said:


> *Children are a gift.*
> ONLY women, have been blessed with the ability to be the host for a new life, created from just two tiny components.
> Men play a part, but it is women who have been blessed with the ability to take his contribution and with hers bring forth life.....
> 
> ...


On the two bolded statements I could not agree more, and yet most women in this country today opt out month after month, year after year, idly disposing that precious gift with a myriad of (to me) bogus excuses instead of getting busy and bringing forth those precious gifts.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Well, I sorta acknowledge these female unless raped, kidnapped and rape did willing spread their blessings by freewill... So.... So what the hades
Caused them to freely agree to sexual relations with an abusive person... 

Why over look that females entered into and maintained being in these relationships.

women not under slavery rules and can say no... It's one syllable.. the bulk of humans show who they are and if you wait long than it takes to chug a beer or go thru their wallet many might find the duds before sex ....same go for the men..slow down ..the are fatal lady land mines staking the pick up joints.

Do guys have any idea how many women fake an abortion to pay the phone bill. Hey one benefit to the anything go bathroom is men can finally listen to women in the poorly named ladies room...where drunk female in clubs plan on conning men..

The fake need for abortion one night stand plan. Or the immature say 22 year old hotty seeking military bennies for life fantasy.. where they openly plan a surprise pregnancy to for a marriage. 

I had to spend a lot of time in New York night clubs.. I have the world's smallest bladder and I became totally discussed with the crowd of women..and openly as only a winner in drink and drown night can be.

Who's kidding women use men and claim they are the fairer sex..While batting their eyes they will pick pocket a man's future. ....and label him a brute.

Like I used to warn men ....never drink and have sex.. drive alone it's safer for your Ira. Good night


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