# Is this a good deal?



## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Last night at our local beekeepers meeting, a man offered to sell me a 1-box hive with bees and queen, inner and outer lids and screened bottom board, frames already with brood- for $125. and he will deliver and set it up for me, come back 2-3 times for a month to see how the bees are doing and give me pointers. And will also give me a replacement queen if the first one doesn't keep on her job. He says they were treated for mites this fall. He is not a commercial grower, strictly a hobby guy with 50 hives - he says. He does sell his honey, but it isn't a business - he says. He has also just started raising queens to sell. He says he got into bees because he say retirement looming and needed a hobby/interest. Others in the association seems to like him well enough and some even took him up on his deal.

I think the price is great - about what I would pay for a nuc alone. The hive was what I was going to order anyway to start with and let DH build the rest of the boxes for me. It seems like just the thing I wanted. I really like the idea of buying local and not having shipping charges or issues of bees DOA. 

Any cautions here that I should be aware of? I keep reading not to buy a hive of bees from someone else and not purchase used hives. I am not sure this is in that category. 

Side note: I was really, really surprised at the number of people that started with captured hives. I didn't know it was such a huge thing!


----------



## indypartridge (Oct 26, 2004)

Sounds like a great deal to me!! One of the biggest reasons beekeepers warn against buying old equipment is because you don't want to bring any pathogens (such as AFB) into your beeyard. Well, you don't have a beeyard yet since you're just getting started! 

I'd jump on this deal!


----------



## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

It might be a great deal and it might not. If I were buying hives here in Ohio I would ask the seller to present an inspection certificate (there is no additional charge to them).

The second issue is what kind of shape the woodenware is in. A few years back I bought 10 hives from someone. The woodenware was homemade and it turned out not to quite match the dimensions of all my other woodenware. Some of the covers were starting to rot on the inside (from age and humidity). 

I was ok with those issues because I planned on swapping out old woodenware for new over the next year or two (I was basically paying for the bees).

Your mileage may vary.

Mike


----------



## sugarbush (Jul 15, 2007)

I say no, all he is selling you is a 10 frame Nuc. A Nuc with laying queen is worth about 80.00, five extra frames about 2.00 each.

A hive is worth 125.00 if it came with two hive bodies and 20 frames, plus laying queen and bees.


----------



## Iddee (Sep 25, 2005)

I say check the condition of the wood. If it is fairly new, and not home made, it is a deal. I start new hives in new wood and get 150 for the same set up, without the after sale service.


----------



## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Mike: I will check the wood. Good point. I was thinking that I could easily replace it if it wasn't what I wanted but I forgot about the covers and bottom being part of the hive....Like I said, I am a beginner... I did ask about the size of the hive body and he said the plans in the TN Beekeeper's instructions- which are the plans we were going to follow- fit them exactly, but I don't know for sure that he builds them. We decided to build our own so we can control the type of wood used. 

The only nucs I have found online have been $120. That is what I was going to order anyway. I like the idea of the bees not being shipping and going through that stress. 

Inspection - sounds great. I will definately ask. 

Iddee - don't tell him your price!!! 
sugarbush- please, tell me where I can find a new hive for that price! I have only found $150 and up. 

Indy - is there danger of the hive having a disease that will keep it from flourishing already? I didn't think of spreading disease - good point, but no, I don't have to worry about spreading it to other hives. I was thinking of another problem with a diseased hive. I guess the inspection would take care of that.


----------



## indypartridge (Oct 26, 2004)

Callieslamb said:


> Indy - is there danger of the hive having a disease that will keep it from flourishing already? I didn't think of spreading disease - good point, but no, I don't have to worry about spreading it to other hives. I was thinking of another problem with a diseased hive. I guess the inspection would take care of that.


Yes, Mike is right about getting it inspected before you buy. Looks like it's required in Tennessee:
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publications/pbfiles/PB1745.pdf
(see page 8, Beekeeping Regulations in Tenn)
http://www.state.tn.us/agriculture/regulate/apiary/index.html

As for the deal, if the wood is in good shape, then I see it this way:
nuc: about $80 this year
Kelley sells a hive with 1 deep, inner & outer lid with screened bottom board for $69 (w/o tax or shipping). That totals about $150 and matches what Iddee is charging.
http://go.netgrab.com/secure/kelleystore/asp/product.asp?product=159


----------



## sugarbush (Jul 15, 2007)

Any hive with bees in it is not going to be new equipment, Guys who sell off nucs in hives usually do so to get rid of un-servicible wooden ware. If it was good wooden ware and they are not selling out they would need it.

Here is a link for nucs. http://my4acres.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=18&Itemid=88

For full hives keep your eye on beesource or beemaster's forum, they come up from time to time.

I think you are better off to make or buy a hive and put a nuc in.


----------



## Durandal (Aug 19, 2007)

sugarbush said:


> I say no, all he is selling you is a 10 frame Nuc. A Nuc with laying queen is worth about 80.00, five extra frames about 2.00 each.
> 
> A hive is worth 125.00 if it came with two hive bodies and 20 frames, plus laying queen and bees.


No offense but I am not too sure where you are getting prices from. This includes the guy dropping it off, visiting, and education classes of sorts.

Its a great deal.

The going rate for a 5 frame NUC (assuming you provide your own nuc box) is 60.00.

3# Packages of Buckfast are selling for 125.00

The buyer in this case gets bees that have made it through a season and are better, IMO some package with a new 2008 queen from Hawaii.

Anyways, assuming the gear is in good shape and the bees are disease free (club or association members are usually on the up and up I have found) then you probably have an excellent deal going here. THe advice alone could be worth the 125.00.

Callieslamb, I'd go for it if you trust your source. Its a great way to start just do a little research about the source before you jump on it.


----------



## OkieDavid (Jan 15, 2007)

The onsite service, knowledge and opportunity to "show you" what to look for alone is worth the price even if the bees ultimately don't make it......woodenware is cheap compared to knowledge and experience.


----------



## alleyyooper (Apr 22, 2005)

Guy here in Michigan last year was selling a double deep established hive for $100.00. All the wooden ware was well used at this commercial honey bee bussness. You had to pick them up and transport them to your site.

But you are getting a mentor from the deal so I would say jump on it.


 Al


----------



## Iddee (Sep 25, 2005)

I said.."I start new hives in new wood ".

Sugarbush then says..."Any hive with bees in it is not going to be new equipment".

Have I been called a liar, or what?


----------



## off_da_grid (May 22, 2007)

What part of Tennessee are you in Callieslamb? I'm in East TN and know many of the beekeepers in this area, most all of them are straight-shooters, save 1 or 2. It sounds to me like this beekeeper is giving you a wonderful
deal and a helping hand to boot. I feel as though you can't put a price on experience and he is offering his, so I say take it and run with it.
Cardboard nucs(5 frame)are selling for $90 dollars around here, so the $125 sounds very fair to me. If I can help just let me know.
Tom


----------



## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

sugarbush said:


> Any hive with bees in it is not going to be new equipment, Guys who sell off nucs in hives usually do so to get rid of un-servicible wooden ware. If it was good wooden ware and they are not selling out they would need it.


This has not been my experience at all. My experience over the years has been:

1) Seller includes cardboard Nuc;
2) Seller provides Wooden Nuc and buyer pays deposit. If buyer returns Nuc in good shape and timely manner they get their deposit back.
3) Seller provides Nuc and buyer keeps it (In this case I have generally seennew woodenware)
4) Buyer brings own Nucs and frames are transferred

A variation on 4) is what I did last spring. I provided my nucs ahead of time to the person I was getting the bees from.

I like having my own Nuc boxes. The ones I have have a metal drop down gate in the front for closing them up. They also have metal (over wood) covers that have a circular mesh opening (that can be covered) which can be used for feeding or ventilation as desired. I have 10 of them.

I have yet to personally encounter the person selling nucs to get rid of unservicable woodenware.

Mike


----------



## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Thanks for your input. I was thinking this deal was almost as good as just ordering the bees and putting them in my own hive. Having them come from a local source is great news to me. Mentoring....boy do I need that. I am not really so worried about the wood, but I don't want junk either. If I have to replace it next year, that is fine, but I don't want to replace it this year. I think I can count on mechianical Engineer DH to come up with a really fine hive structure anyway (read over- engineered structure  ).

I think I need to make the time to go and visit his hives. That will probably tell me a lot - would probably tell a lot of you a lot more. I can see what kind of operation he runs. At the next beekeeper meeting I will clarify if he is new wood or not. If it is not, I might build my hive, take it to him and let him put his bees and frames in it, if he will go for that. Is that okay to ask a beekeeper? I don't know all the 'politeness" rules for this kind of fun. I don't want to insult him. Best of all with this deal- we can work it out between us when to deliver. I have a friend that is also starting in bees this year, so we are learning together.

Off-da-grid - I live in West Tn, near Jackson, unfortunately. or I would be glad to come over and let your bees sting me so I can learn a few things. thanks for the offer.


----------



## sugarbush (Jul 15, 2007)

Durandal said:


> This includes the guy dropping it off, visiting, and education classes of sorts.


That is called a Mentor and is always free.




Durandal said:


> The going rate for a 5 frame NUC (assuming you provide your own nuc box) is 60.00.
> 
> 3# Packages of Buckfast are selling for 125.00
> 
> .


Horses here in lexington sell at auction for millions every year, doesn't mean every horse is worth millions.

No offence Iddee.... I know that you sell new equipment with your nucs, that's still a nuc in new equipment and your customers are paying for that. This sounds like a nuc in old equipment to me.

Mike
You miss-read my post.
People who sell nucs do so to make money, I was stating that if they are selling a nuc and calling it a hive, they are getting rid of old equipment.

These are the questions that need to be asked.

1. Is it an overwintered hive or a new split?
2. Is it in old equipment or new?
3. Does he have inspection records and treatment records for the hive.
4. How old is the queen

The decision is really easy, if its worth 125.00 to you than buy it. My opinion is that you would be better off to buy a nuc for 80.00 and put it into new equipment. The upside is that you are getting a new quality queen from a breeder, not an old queen that this guy may not know the history of; and you may end up needing to replace the first season.


----------



## sugarbush (Jul 15, 2007)

Callieslamb said:


> I might build my hive, take it to him and let him put his bees and frames in it, if he will go for that. Is that okay to ask a beekeeper? .


Absolutley ask, He should have no issues with doing so. Local bees are the best bet for a first timer.


----------



## Iddee (Sep 25, 2005)

You misread my post. I get 85 for a nuc. I sell them mostly to experienced beeks. I get 150 for a full ten frame hive, started within the last year in new equip. and ready to be supered.
Queen less than a year old.

I think a newbee is better off with ten frames and a settled queen than with a package or nuc with a strange queen that has to be introduced.


----------



## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

is 10 frames of bees already going with the queen. Now just how many bees per frame, I don't know. That is yet to be determined. I am sure he told me, I just didn't understand enough to hear everything he said. 

Iddee -sorry I misunderstood your pricing. Yours sounds like an excellent deal.


----------



## sugarbush (Jul 15, 2007)

Callieslamb said:


> is 10 frames of bees already going with the queen. Now just how many bees per frame, I don't know. That is yet to be determined. I am sure he told me, I just didn't understand enough to hear everything he said.
> 
> Iddee -sorry I misunderstood your pricing. Yours sounds like an excellent deal.


The frames should be close to full, but the # of workers is less important than sealed brood and open larva.

Iddee
I think you and I have a different interpretation of what constitutes a working hive. For me a working hive is a laying queen, worker bees and two deeps or three medium hive bodies. Anything less than that I consider a nucleus, which is why I refered to your started hives as Nucs in new equipment.


----------



## Iddee (Sep 25, 2005)

nuc....3 to 5 frames with queen and brood, honey and pollen

Hive...full 8 frame, ten frame, or 12 frame box with queen, etc.

Two hive bodies= two story hive.

add supers and you have supered hive.

OK, so we agree to disagree, now back to the OP.
A 10 frame bottom board, hive body, ten drawn frames, queen, bees, honey, pollen, inner lid and outer lid, healthy, disease free, and equip. in good condition, is well worth 125.00 and more. The knowledge and experience gained through working with a beek and having him to call with questions is a priceless bonus.

Callie, I didn't think you did. My post wasn't pointed at you.


----------



## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

Iddee said:


> nuc....3 to 5 frames with queen and brood, honey and pollen
> 
> Hive...full 8 frame, ten frame, or 12 frame box with queen, etc.
> 
> ...


I agree with Iddee for the most part. A nuc has 3-5 frames with a laying queen and the foundation of the frames built out and having brood,pollen and honey.

For me a hive has at least one body (8-10 frames), a bottom board, an inner cover and an outer cover. 

While I normally see 1 or two deeps for a "base" hive (no honey supers) I have seen folks that do a deep and a medium or a deep and 2 mediums for the base hive.

Mike


----------



## OkieDavid (Jan 15, 2007)

Around "here" a "nuc" is five (typically old frames and VERY old comb) with usually a grand total of one full frame of closed brood and two frames of egg/open brood and two frames of comb that may or may not have anything in it or on it complete with about three pounds of bees and a laying queen that may or may not have overwintered with this particular colony. When I say "total" understand I am only talking about several partially filled frames that would add up to a "total". Sell for around $85-90. A complete hive is sold as top/bottom boards and a *single* deep brood box with an "established" queen and workers.....Could be anything from a last year split on new equipment to a unmanaged hive who has successfully survived/swarmed/repopulated for years....Typical prices run from $125-150.


----------



## off_da_grid (May 22, 2007)

Mike in Ohio said:


> I agree with Iddee


Me too. It's not that difficult to distinguish a nuc from a hive.

Callie, you are very welcome. Good luck with your new found hobby.


----------



## Mike in Ohio (Oct 29, 2002)

I have to update/correct my previous post. At yesterdays Stark County Beekeepers banquet I was speaking with an older fellow (maybe in his late 70's/early 80s) who only uses shallows...even for his brood boxes. He told me that he just can't handle the deeps and would have to give up beekeeping if he had to move deeps around to check his bees.

Learn something new everyday <G>

Mike


----------



## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

use the shallow frames too. I plan on using medium ones. I would rather have to lift a few heavier ones ( I am hoping they will be heavy) than several lighter weight ones. My issue is going to be switching them out quickly enough and tending to things in a timely manner.


----------



## sugarbush (Jul 15, 2007)

I use all medium, all 8 frame. It has nothing to do with weight for me, I am still young and spry, it is about space.

All of my current bees are feral stock, including the queens that I have bought for splits. Every time I do a removal the colony is in a very tight space, far smaller than the standred deep hive body. 

So in the interest of keeping bees as much in a natural state as possible, and treatment free, I use smaller equipment so when the time comes to add a box they are not streached thin managing that new space.

I am actually thinking about trying to go even smaller with either 5 frame nuc boxes or a six frame hive.


----------



## Timber (Jun 15, 2003)

As a new beekeeper this is a great deal. If I was starting out I could give a rat's a.. if the woodenware will fall apart in a couple years. If some of you look back to your starting days, just ask yourself how many questions pass through your head opening your hive for the frist, second and problem times.

Folks, Callieslamb hit the jackpot here. HANDS ON EDUCATION from a season beekeeper two to three times a month. With all the problems taken care of. Not mentioning the working relationship years to come. Geeesh 

Timber


----------



## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

I will take this deal and see how it works out. I promise to let you know. In fact, I might get two! I just bought some local honey today and it is just fine. Not as good as Wyoming honey - but then, I am not in Wyoming!


----------

