# i don't get it. (Why Prep, explainations)



## marvella (Oct 12, 2003)

the recent thread about bob's and babies brought up something i've often wondered about on this forum.

why do so many people think they have to spend so much money to be prepared for some shtf scenario?

really, all that is needed is to identify a clean water source (admittedly not easy in this country anymore) a working knowledge of what edibles grow nearby, and knowledge of how to catch and kill various animals.

i see threads about storing sugar, and toilet paper, chocolate, etc... things that can easily be done without. 

seems to me any money would be better spent on some good field guides and weapons that don't require an outside source to supply.


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## debra in ks (Jun 13, 2002)

It would take time for most of us to learn all we need to know. For example if TSHTF in December there are going to be a lot of people die from lack of food. Those that have stores set back can at least eat from them until gardens start producing. Same with trapping and butchering. It would take time to learn these skills and people will be getting awfully hungry in the mean time. Having the advantage of being able to fall back on stores while learning new skills would be invaluable to most of us. It also comes down to morale. Having some niceties like TP or chocolate can make a big difference when everything else has gone to heck!


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

marvella said:


> the recent thread about bob's and babies brought up something i've often wondered about on this forum.
> 
> why do so many people think they have to spend so much money to be prepared for some shtf scenario?
> 
> ...


I suspect that many of us find having a supply of niceties on hand is somewhat comforting in nature. Also, if the lights are only going to be out for 3-4 weeks, I don't see myself out scrounging for dandelion greens if I have food in the freezer or pantry.

There are many different emergency scenarios. Different levels of preparedness covers different situations.

JMO


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

marvella said:


> the recent thread about bob's and babies brought up something i've often wondered about on this forum.
> 
> why do so many people think they have to spend so much money to be prepared for some shtf scenario?
> 
> ...


There are many different SHTF situations. Each person has their own. This causes some confusion when a person who thinks SHTF means their pay check is a day or two late is talking to a person who thinks SHTF means a nuclear war. Each will store back what they thing is best for their SHTF. Some think their SHTF will be only temporary and last only a few days, others see it as way of life for the remainder of their days.


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## susieM (Apr 23, 2006)

I can't see taking babies out hunting with me...they'd only cry and scare the food away.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

All of that really depends on the nature, severity and duration of the crisis known as SHTF.

Most people produce little if any of their own food. Many people, especially in cities don't even know how to cook without electricity. Even if they do, most of them live in houses where an electric stove, refrigerator, hot water heater, etc is the installed solution. Sure, they can change it, but it requires not only money, but knowledge they may or may not have.

Acquiring food from agriculture, hunting, trapping, etc is only a part of the equation. Once you have the food it usually has to be cooked, processed and preserved. Again this takes tools and skills that are no longer common.


Honestly, as the head of a family that pursues self-sufficiency and preparation through acquiring tools, skills, and supplies, nothing worries more than "Survivalists" with a barn full of guns and a backpack full of MRE's.


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## danoon (Dec 20, 2006)

I live in a very small city and there are 23 families on this little dead end street. There is no game or edible plants that would last more than a day around here. If everyone had chickens and goats we might fare better... but thats against the law until a real shtf and by then its too late, so you store some things that might keep you alive for a month or two hoping you can come up with something else by then.


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## marvella (Oct 12, 2003)

now, i'm not trying to be insulting... but basically, prep is for city folks that don't know how to make garden, hunt etc?

just trying to understand. i live in a place that is one of the most biologically diverse places in the world. don't mow for a couple weeks and there's food and medicine everywhere. i had to learn like everyone else, but why aren't people learning those skills instead of stockpiling luxuries? a couple of weeks of primitive camping should teach at least the basics of survival.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

marvella said:


> now, i'm not trying to be insulting... but basically, *prep is for city folks that don't know how to make garden, hunt etc?*
> 
> just trying to understand. i live in a place that is one of the most biologically diverse places in the world. don't mow for a couple weeks and there's food and medicine everywhere. i had to learn like everyone else, but why aren't people learning those skills instead of stockpiling luxuries? a couple of weeks of primitive camping should teach at least the basics of survival.


No.... I know how to garden and hunt, but I travel a lot and I don't have time to keep a garden right now. I do have plenty of heirloom seed stashed back, but it will still take time to establish a garden if/when needed. Having supplies enough to get to harvest time seems prudent, no?

And not everyone lives in a biologically diverse area. 

Can we all move in with you?


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## marvella (Oct 12, 2003)

JGex said:


> No.... I know how to garden and hunt, but I travel a lot and I don't have time to keep a garden right now. I do have plenty of heirloom seed stashed back, but it will still take time to establish a garden if/when needed. Having supplies enough to get to harvest time seems prudent, no?
> 
> And not everyone lives in a biologically diverse area.
> 
> Can we all move in with you?


no, heck no. i like my privacy.  

my opinion is that if you just quit mowing for a few weeks, there's plenty of food out there. you just have to learn about it. wherever it is you live, i can about guarantee there's plenty of food out there, if you know what you are looking at.


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## marvella (Oct 12, 2003)

i just went back and looked... if you live in n. ga you live in the same biologically diverse place. just stop mowing and get a field guide.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

I do know what to look for... I eat poke, lambsquarters, dandelion, and a few other things I can find on our property. I'm also familiar with many local herbs, but depending on time of year, they may or may not be available. Also, if times were THAT tough, I imagine foragers would ravage the area, probably without leaving enough to grow back.

I've never been very concerned with MY ability to survive,..... more concerned with other's stupidity.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

marvella said:


> i just went back and looked... if you live in n. ga you live in the same biologically diverse place. just stop mowing and get a field guide.



lol, I have a stack of field guides.....


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

marvella said:


> now, i'm not trying to be insulting... but basically, prep is for city folks that don't know how to make garden, hunt etc?
> 
> just trying to understand. i live in a place that is one of the most biologically diverse places in the world. don't mow for a couple weeks and there's food and medicine everywhere. i had to learn like everyone else, but why aren't people learning those skills instead of stockpiling luxuries? a couple of weeks of primitive camping should teach at least the basics of survival.


Just about anyone who has homesteaded or lived on a farm will agree with you. The people who come up with all of these ideas on hoarding luxuries have not had the same chance to learn as you have. Most live in cities and have no experience with growing their own food or preparing it if some one else would grow it. They store what is important for them until they can make the next trip to McDonalds.


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## AR Transplant (Mar 20, 2004)

can you really live in just a field? What would you do for protein? And if you will be shooting an animal, how are you going to cook it?

Roasting game is ok for a while, but isn't it pretty wasteful? Would it be better if you cooked it in a pot and saved the juices? 

and if you need a pot, then there it goes, next you'd want a tripod, then a rope, then a hook, and there you go, prepping.

good luck with your theory, I am still going to stock up on tuna, the finer things of life. I may just get crazy and get dried fruit as well. Major luxuries for sure.


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## Henry (Mar 1, 2006)

Actually you are missing some of the main points of prepping. First if a shtf scenario happens we should all agree in the depression era knowledge. All game will disappear from all but the most remote areas. The person who is a good hunter and thinks his hunting possibilities will be anything like his normal hunting is kidding himself or does not want to learn from past shtf scenarios. Second if you have to go out everyday to restock your food supply than your place is vulnerable. Also its naive to think that you can live on a restricted diet until you have tried it and learned what you really need to survive. We are snowed in during the winter and have learned what it takes to be healthy and happy with our diet. I suspect if the shtf those who are outdoors types as we are and do not see the need to prep will be hunting each other. How many of us hunters have seen wasteful even crazy hunting by novice hunters. What could you expect from a city full of people going into the country to get food. Not a pretty picture.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

All good points, yall.
A prepper's worst enemy is a detachment from reality


marvella said:


> my opinion is that if you just quit mowing for a few weeks, there's plenty of food out there. you just have to learn about it. wherever it is you live, i can about guarantee there's plenty of food out there, if you know what you are looking at.


 No there ain't.....not if you consider sound nutrition, or any reasonable level of "quality of life". The very notion of this is beyond ludicrous. 
Buying every feild guide ever in print, and a couple of weeks of camping will, by no means, prepare someone for living off the land. Yeah, the natives pulled it off, but lots of them died, too. These were folks raised learning these skills, spending the majority of their lives learning how to survive, and working in tandem with an organized community of equally skilled people. The idea that a few books and a weekend trip or so could bring you up to that level of sustainability is, well, arrogant.

Part of the idea behind prepping isn't just about the "foever", but about getting over that initial hump when the fan DOES finally turn brown. You won't have time to forage while gathering info about what happened and how bad it is, defending yourself, locating loved ones, paddling the raft out of your neighborhood, or removing the giant oak tree that came crashing into your living room. 
Game is plentiful in some places, but in others,....it ain't. In a long term surival situation, game becomes scarce quickly in even moderately populated areas, a lesson courtesy the great depression.
I'm curious, Marvella....If the lights went out right now, and you were forced to live off of your knowlege and feild guides, what would you eat for, say, the next month?


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## treesonggal (May 4, 2006)

Another thing to consider is how many people are in your household. Are they, too, capable of going into the yard or field and harvesting edible wild plants? Are they young, old, infants, blind, wheelchair bound? And if there are others in your household and they all happen to be in excellent health and able to forage for themselves, are they of the same mind as you are?

Weather is another consideration. We have lots of snow on the gorund right now. HOw easily could I/we pick edible wild foods? Perhaps if we had picked them all spring and summer, we'd have a stock of them. What do we do when they run out?

I think swampman's suggestion about trying this yourself for the next month would be worth pursuing. Then report back to us. MOst plans have holes in them and the more we can learn from one another without making the mistakes ourselves the better.


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## K-9 (Jul 27, 2007)

Well as far as BOBs go, I look at mine as a way to deal with a short term problem where I am at and provide me with the basics of food, water, shelter, and protection or to get me back to a more secure location in the event of a longer term problem. I have a very diverse set of survival skills and know a lot of things that I can eat, I know how to hunt, fish, and trap as well as how to prepare what I get. With that said, it is very impractical to rely solely on these skills for a long term survival plan for a variety of reasons. There will be a lot of other folks trying to get what they can unless you live in a very isolated area. There is only so much game in a given area, one of the reasons many of the Native American tribes were somewhat nomadic. The more you move around trying to feed yourself the more you expose yourself to detection, confrontation, or injury. Obviously the most critical time is right after the event, in the case of a small event a couple or three days, up to a month or more for a major event and who knows how long for a true nationwide event such as pandemic flu, economic collapse or a wide spread NBC event. While you may well be able to survive off the "fat of the land", I belive I feel more comfortable knowing I've got a little something put back, just in case. This really provides a good buffer because that way you can use what nature provides to stretch what you have put back but if there is nothing there at natures buffet at a given time you can fall back to the stuff you have stored away and still be okay.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

The majority of people living in the cities will never leave them until it is too late. They will try to stick it out where they are living. Even if a few do venture outside of the city they are not a threat to wildlife much at all. Hunting wildlife is a skill a person could starve to death learning if they only had what they kill to eat. These city dwellers who venture out will be either raiding parties or will scavenge. There will even be some living on the outskirts of large cities that will move in to take advantage of what there is left.

If there is ever really a serious SHTF the population will shrink by quite a lot in the first few weeks. Add to that number all of those in hospitals, resthomes, and the sick and weak people. Add a few more to that number of those who cannot go anywhere they cannot drive. Don't forget those who will be killed by gangs of scavengers and even the number of scavengers killed by people protecting their family and possessions. Add all of these together along with the number killed by whatever SHTF destroys. The number of people will drop dramatically.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

As usual, I agree with Pancho.

I live in a city, but I spent a fair amount of time in the way-the-heck-out-in-the-country with my extended family. I'm not so confident that the average rural resident can actually survive a total grid collapse either. The number of people I know who come anywhere close to feeding themselves off their own land I can count on the fingers of one hand. If you then take away the ones that absolutely rely on fuel for their tractor and electricity for their pumps, etc, that number drops down to two. Now, arguably, those rural residents would have a shorter learning curve than the average city resident, but it's still a pretty steep learning curve.


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## hillsidedigger (Sep 19, 2006)

marvella said:


> why do so many people think they have to spend so much money to be prepared for some shtf scenario?
> 
> really, all that is needed is to identify a clean water source (admittedly not easy in this country anymore) a working knowledge of what edibles grow nearby, and knowledge of how to catch and kill various animals.


Even though, I was slow catching on to the concept, historically, people have always prepared for their later years when they might not be so productive and so might be comfortable without too much effort, the modern world calls it 'saving/investing for retirement, the earlier, the better' and assumes that times will remain just as good if not get better.

The times will not remain as good. All can count on it.

Whether you take the Bible's version or just use common sense, an ominous future is approaching.

Even assuming no all-out military action, severe/prolonged/essentially terminal economic decline will soon beset nearly the entire world (caused by Peak Oil (and Peak other things), all caused by the new phenom, overpopulation, combined with the ages-old unleashed lust and greed).

Forget foraging for wildlife and wild foods. There will be a thousand human hands reaching for every remaining squirrel and acorn until there are none (squirrels and acorns).

Those who choose soon enough to establish a self-supporting system (few ways to do that other than small scale farming) may fare better than those who do not.

I expect most us reading this will live to see it.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Well having worked out in the boonies for many years and working with native american tribes monitoring their food subsistance gathering. There is no way that a large population could with some field guides be able to identify edible substances and gather enough to survive on. I have learned from them, and have eaten what the native americans were gathering. Acorns aren't too bad to eat, after all of the work it takes to prepare them in order to make them edible..... Hey those same folks would come off of the Reservation and go shopping in the local markets also........ I can imagine some suburbanite with a copy of "Stalking The Wild Aspargus" written by Euwell Gibbons trying to find enough to eat, after an event occured.

If I get snowed in up here, of if something happens with an Earthquake, Tsunami, Fires, etc... are you gonna live under a tarp while foraging for edibles. 

That is why I prepare for whatever, and plan on sheltering in place, If absolutely necessary, I know of a few very remote places in Six Rivers National Forest that I would head for, if I was gonna have to forage/ or hidout from scavengers in a post SHTF world...

Hey Swampman, I been meaning to ask you, what you have against the "vertically challenged????" To the point, where you want to stomp them?


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## bentbldr (Apr 25, 2007)

My attitude is be prepared to live like the pioneers did. Live off the land. While there were Mountain Men and Native Americans truly living off the land, the vast majority of pioneers depended on bought supplies to suppliment what they got off the land. They bought flour, salt and sugar and other necessaties. 

So, I prep by making sure that I have enough of those type items to sustain us through several months of hard times. All my preps have to be inside my home. I will not have to venture out for anything.

A soon as the SHTF, all game will be gone except in the high country.

For me, a BOB is not a long term solution. If the BOB is put together correctly, one can sustain a family for several days without help from nature. That is all a BOB is for. 

But, not prepping at all is a major mistake. I feel like some of the others in that most city folks will hunker down in the city too long waiting for someone else to come rescue them.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

radiofish said:


> Hey Swampman, I been meaning to ask you, what you have against the "vertically challenged????" To the point, where you want to stomp them?


 When the poo hits the fan, and wild game populations are depleted, the little people may be our only source of protien-rich meat.

-OR-

It's just a silly joke me and the boys were clowning around about at the bar a while back
.......you decide.
Don't try any midget huntin' with that Nagant of yours, Radiofish. The 7.62x54R is waaaay too much gun for midget.


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## longshot38 (Dec 19, 2006)

well for me and for some others here we live in areas that just letting the lawn grow would allow you to starve. its december here and i do know what plants i can eat and gather they are under snow or are dormant. here if you dont have food put back to get you through to spring when you can gather and plant you aint gonna make it. there are animals we could hunt, but so is every one else, they's gonna get scarce. so putting food back to get you through is true now, for my grand parents, they're grand parents, and back 500 years, it is and was true for my wifes people going back thousands of years and it was true for the Beothuk, the Dorest, the Mig Mau, the Maritime Archiac, the Inuit, and so on if your food stocks arnt up to measure you starve.


dean


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## PyroDon (Jul 30, 2006)

Unless you have two stomachs and hooves your not going to eat the yard even if you had two stomachs the yard would be lucky to feed you for a week or so. 
As for surviving and wild game being hunted out, have any of you ever watched survivor?? most city folks couldn't catch a chicken trapped in a five gallon bucket. Though that is the first thing they are going to do. Any stock not guarded in tight confinement and guarded is going to be gone .
I agree all the preps in the world arent going to save you cause when they run out your in the same boat as everyone else when the whole mess started.
The consoling thought is that its true a very large number of people will die do to their own ignorance, eating desease riddin wood or polluted water . many with preps will be killed by those who dont have any and vice versa. Still others will die thinking they can be a world unto themselves and have what would normally be a minor accident or illness become fatal.
so who will survive?
those who are smart enough to have stored some food ,grow some and harvest what grows wild. It will depend more on how willing you are to survive than what your have. If you have a working knowledge of things you have a chance , if you think your going to grab a book and run out and eat roots and grubs ,not so likely. 
Its a bit hard to make tator soup out of radishes.


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## dahliaqueen (Nov 9, 2005)

Opening a field guide or how-to book in a panic will not do a novice any good when TSHTF, but i have given copies of this book to some folks who had NO clue-

Camping & Wilderness Survival (Paperback)
by Paul Tawrell 

(get the 2001 publication-91/2x11- the newer one is too small)

Blurb from the back cover-

Everything you need to know, and more, can be found in this ultimate outdoor book! This is the MOST thorough book available to assist you in acquiring skills to enjoy the adventures of the outdoors. With over 3600 illustrations and pages of information, it tells you how to travel, make a camp, understand your environment, and choose equipment. In the case of an emergency it will help you find water, food, shelter from the weather, and care for yourself if you are sick or injured. Topics such as signals, animals, and weather; applied specifically to such special activities as summer hiking, desert travel, water travel and car travel. Learn individual skills such as maps and compass, first aid and mountain climbing. Ensure a lifetime of outdoor enjoyment by building a foundation of knowledge. This is a book that can be enjoyed by the entire family. Camping & Wilderness Survival is 'the fullest and finest work in the field'. You won't find a more complete guide in today's market. Prior preparation warrants enjoyable adventures in the outdoors!

http://www.amazon.com/Camping-Wilde...bs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1198716946&sr=8-3


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## marvella (Oct 12, 2003)

i don't know where to start. :shrug: 

so many misconceptions in so few posts....

i come at the whole homesteading thing (with a side of survival skills) from a different place than most. i learned thru dire poverty how to get by on very little and still never miss a meal. as long as there are beans, corn meal, flour, rice and powdered milk, i'm fine for a good while, which gives time to figure out an alternate plan based on circumstances. so, to me, spending tons of money stocking up cookies and candy and TP is a waste. 

imo, people would be better off learning how to find food in the woods (USE the field guide BEFORE you need it, don't just own it) and a good place to start learning about carrying water, building fires, etc. is primitive camping (northern latitudes folks should look at how indigenous people lived for help cuz i can't help and if i still lived there i would have frozen to death already...  ) 

all you need is one year to get started. make your garden and preserve as much as you can. repeat annually. that takes care of the "december and there's nothing to eat!" problem. still no need for massive amounts of sugar and chocolate. or toilet paper. learn what is growing in your yard. (i'm ignoring the naysayers who apparently have yards full of chemicals so nothing but grass will grow there.)

as far as game being quickly depleted... just who do you think has the knowledge to harvest that game? not many. and how hungry are they going to have to be before they actually eat it? heck, people turn up their noses at farm fresh eggs all the time.

y'all are right... given certain circumstances, there will be many many deaths. another argument for thinking there should be plenty to eat. 

swampman, you misread. i said a good place to *start* learning is with field guides and camping, not that that's all they need to do. ask my kids, they think it's a hoot... if the lights went off right this minute, i'd be able to eat well enough, and stay warm, clean and sheltered for at least a month. lived off grid for several years. i'm not arrogant, but i am experienced. my post history will show it. i'll say it again.... i think people depend on things they can BUY instead of acquiring actual skills. it doesn't take that much money to freakin' survive. learn to live *without* instead of stockpiling luxuries.

pancho, i realize most people have not had the opportunity to learn. which is kind of the point i am trying to make. i think people are spending too much money instead of learning valuable skills such as carrying water and chopping wood.

i hope that covers the worst of it. :baby04:


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## tamilee (Apr 13, 2005)

marvella said:


> the recent thread about bob's and babies brought up something i've often wondered about on this forum.
> 
> why do so many people think they have to spend so much money to be prepared for some shtf scenario?
> 
> ...


Hi;
Well, I live in Hurricane Alley. Whenever a hurricane forms and we are in the projected path people panic and head to the grocery store. I have seen people buy like 10 loaves of bread and 6 gallons of milk. Soon the shelves are bare and when a hurricane actually strikes it may be days before :
1.) the store shelves are restocked
2.) You may be trapped in your home or under martial law where you can't get out and do what you want to do
3.) the bank computers go out so debit cards won't work or the atms are out of cash or not functioning.

AS overdeveloped as this place has become there is little game and if food is scarce the same 150,000 people are going to be vying for it.

I can;t imagine how bad it would be in a country or world wide shtf scenario.
tamilee


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

food for thought.....during the depression time you folks talk aobut how game was hunted out and now it would be hunted out fast also.i am not convinced of this at all.the reason being is that back then we are talking about people who had lived a very rural lifestyle....most hunted and farmed or done some type of related work or survival.my point is that most people dont kow to kill and gut a animal...they would starve and freeze to death standing in a forest while looking at deer in the meadow.at my work most folks cant even cook on a stove much less a campfire or woodcook or grill or rocket stove..or ????...point is that alot of folks have "lost" alot of knowledge form dads or grandparents becuase of the lifestyle that most have lived in the past years.heck....i had it so roguh in the past that now....i feel like i live in a castle...the roof dont leak...and i got central air....lol..i am becoming a softy...lol...i want to go solar and the electric company can jsut be on stand by in the future.

most people cant kill and clean anyhting.......lol....you get the ewww factor.


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## woodsy_gardener (May 27, 2007)

marvella said:


> learn to live *without* instead of stockpiling luxuries.


I just had to repeat such sage advice.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

all you need is canning jars and lids...fill them with good homegrown goods and you are set for awhile.its just plain common sense from the past that you stock -up during times of plenty.

i got a buddy who canned 400 quarts of green beans this summer...now that is serious canning.i am not in that class of canner or gardener yet...but a single person can only eat so much.....lol.

also we can live on much less that we do now or most of us could...all those pounds would fall off...lol


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

marvella said:


> i don't know where to start. :shrug:
> 
> so many misconceptions in so few posts....
> 
> ...


I think you have explained much of what I have been trying to say for quite a while on this forum. You have done a lot better job than I did.

It is real hard for many to understand what to do for something to eat if they have never been hungry. It is hard for some to understand how to find shelter if they have never been without a home. People who think stockpilling TP and chocolate will save them will never begin to understand until they experience what it really means to do without.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

pancho....the best flavoring for any food is hunger....and you cant buy it in a store and you dont know what it is until you taste it.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

elkhound said:


> pancho....the best flavoring for any food is hunger....and you cant buy it in a store and you dont know what it is until you taste it.


I agree. People will be surprised what they find good to eat and how their taste changes when they do not have anything to eat for a few days. Many things they do not think they will eat gets to looking real good on about the 6th day of nothing to eat.


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## strider3700 (Feb 2, 2007)

Since it was my thread that caused this I figure I should respond.

First off I asked for two things - lists of items and lists of things I should learn. I'm all for learning new skills and since this is my first child I'm sure there are many many holes that need to be filled. 

The reason I asked about BOB is because although my primary plan is to hole up at home sometimes bad things happen in TSHTF situations and I may be forced to flee. Even if I had a Bug out location nothing says I won't be forced to flee it as well. So I wanted to know what everyone would carry with them specifically for that situation where you're on foot in the wilderness for up to 1 week travelling to a new destination. 

The reason I'm not entirely depending on foraging is pretty simple. I've done a fair amount of hunting and I've done a lot of hiking. I can safely say I see far far more game when hunting then when hiking simply because I can go to locations where the game are likely to be and wait when hunting. It would be a pretty lucky day when that location just happens to be on the way while I'm trying to get somewhere. I cover far more ground hiking then hunting and I don't expect that to change any time soon.

As to the feeding myself and family from the front lawn I know lots of people on the board probably have a larger front lawn then I have a yard. I do grow a lot of food here and during a good summer I probably could be self supporting from just my yard. If we have a bad summer then the gardens even if they don't fail will not provide enough to get by on. Winter everything stops growing here. I planted curly kale back in October. It's no bigger now then it was when it went in the ground. So I need a large stockpile to get by during the winters. I've gardened a long time and each year something that I thought I had figured out fails. This year it was tomatoes, some form of blight took 95% of them and I got a couple of salads and that was it from them. Last year I had hundreds of pounds that I was looking for things to do with. I'd be scared to death if I was reliant on what I grow each year and had zero back up plan.

I entirely agree that you don't need a lot of gizmo's and other things to survive. Sometimes they make life far far easier though and since I sometimes am in a situation where money isn't the deciding factor I don't mind buying them.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

_Originally Posted by marvella
the recent thread about bob's and babies brought up something i've often wondered about on this forum.

why do so many people think they have to spend so much money to be prepared for some shtf scenario?

really, all that is needed is to identify a clean water source (admittedly not easy in this country anymore) a working knowledge of what edibles grow nearby, and knowledge of how to catch and kill various animals.

i see threads about storing sugar, and toilet paper, chocolate, etc... things that can easily be done without. 

seems to me any money would be better spent on some good field guides and weapons that don't require an outside source to supply._

<<-------------------------------------------------------------->>

_Originally Posted by marvella
i don't know where to start. 

so many misconceptions in so few posts....

i come at the whole homesteading thing (with a side of survival skills) from a different place than most. i learned thru dire poverty how to get by on very little and still never miss a meal. as long as there are beans, corn meal, flour, rice and powdered milk, i'm fine for a good while, which gives time to figure out an alternate plan based on circumstances. so, to me, spending tons of money stocking up cookies and candy and TP is a waste. 

imo, people would be better off learning how to find food in the woods (USE the field guide BEFORE you need it, don't just own it) and a good place to start learning about carrying water, building fires, etc. is primitive camping (northern latitudes folks should look at how indigenous people lived for help cuz i can't help and if i still lived there i would have frozen to death already... ) 

all you need is one year to get started. make your garden and preserve as much as you can. repeat annually. that takes care of the "december and there's nothing to eat!" problem. still no need for massive amounts of sugar and chocolate. or toilet paper. learn what is growing in your yard. (i'm ignoring the naysayers who apparently have yards full of chemicals so nothing but grass will grow there.)

as far as game being quickly depleted... just who do you think has the knowledge to harvest that game? not many. and how hungry are they going to have to be before they actually eat it? heck, people turn up their noses at farm fresh eggs all the time.

y'all are right... given certain circumstances, there will be many many deaths. another argument for thinking there should be plenty to eat. 

swampman, you misread. i said a good place to *start* learning is with field guides and camping, not that that's all they need to do. ask my kids, they think it's a hoot... if the lights went off right this minute, i'd be able to eat well enough, and stay warm, clean and sheltered for at least a month. lived off grid for several years. i'm not arrogant, but i am experienced. my post history will show it. i'll say it again.... i think people depend on things they can BUY instead of acquiring actual skills. it doesn't take that much money to freakin' survive. learn to live *without* instead of stockpiling luxuries.

pancho, i realize most people have not had the opportunity to learn. which is kind of the point i am trying to make. i think people are spending too much money instead of learning valuable skills such as carrying water and chopping wood.

i hope that covers the worst of it. _ 


So by my preparing for natural disasters such as Earthquakes or Tsunamis that give no warning, and having spent the better part of my adult life in very remote areas - If I have a case of Charmin and a couple of Hershey bars for a quick energy boost - I ain't gonna make it, 'cause I can't freakin' survive?? I better go OD on some Marinol when TSHTF, and just fade away....(Not, this Marine is going down fighting no matter what)

*"Fix Bayonets"* Mosin-Nagant M-44 Carbine on the left, M-1 garand on the right.










*Hey I made it out of Deepest Darkest Detroit, I must be a survivor type!!*










*Oh and you specifed no firearms and such. Do these qualify???? With a knife, some fine wire, fishing line, and seine twine/ parachute cord - one can do very amazing things!!*










Gosh, I know quite a few of the non poisoinous/ edible plants along the coast. Different geographical areas, have different flora/ fauna species. Come here to a temperate rain forest and you'll need a new set of field guides I betcha.... Do I have to live in abject poverty to observe nature, utilize everything from an item, be frugal, and get by with less? I think not! 

I am gonna stockpile beer and straws, so I am assured of squirrel and dumplings - to go with the stash of flour, cornmeal, beans, and rice we are now allowed.. Hey they will be "sauced" when I use the pellet rifle or slingshot to take them out!!










Asking how to not stockpile in preperation for whatever, yet later you mention one can have a stash or beans, rice, flour, cornmeal to suppliment your foraging diet. Gee I must have missed that fact when I was in the USMC Survival class. I have eaten bugs, and other unappetizing items during that mandatory survival course. I drooled over a MRE type meal after more than four days of making it back 50+ miles from the drop off point carrying only a canteen, knife/ bayonet, map and compass (had built in mirror), and clothes/ boots. Oh, and 40 pounds of numbered bricks in an ALICE pack w/ web gear, plus my weapon (M-16A1 rifle) with no ammunition issued.

Swamp Man - I thought that Soylent Green is made of people. So it's made out of the vertically challenged instead - OK... Then I will have my Cat Sid (Obsidian) take care of my lite work. She is in Kitty Boot Camp and has her own issue of 20 razor sharp KA-BAR claws. Next week we go the the firing range with the 9mm Makarov (9X18mm) for qualification.










Now if I could only train her to use the chainsaw, to cut firewood!!!!!


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

marvella said:


> really, all that is needed is to identify a clean water source (admittedly not easy in this country anymore) a working knowledge of what edibles grow nearby, and knowledge of how to catch and kill various animals.


Sounds good in theory but has several flaws. While I am sure you can reasonable survive in some parts of the US using what you grow and hunting.
I have lots of deer, rabbit and assorted critters that I can take. The problem with this solution is when you have just a hand full of people doing the same thing the meet will be gone in no time. This plan also assumes you can get enough food wild foods year round and that they will provide enough food to survive on. Many parts of the US dont have enough wild food to support the population.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

I wonder if the people in the U.S. are still as adaptable and made of the same stuff as they once were.

Take for example the people of the dust bowl and their travels to Calif. Read Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath. The story of the family of 12 who were forced off of their land. Since they had no car they built a trailer out of junk, loaded it with their possessions, and pulled it to the side of Rt. 66 and waited. They made it to Calif. It may be a true story or not but it is an example of how the people could survive.

Read the diary of Virginia Reed who at the age of 13 was a member of the Donner-Reed party. She lived through the winter in which the party resorted to cannibalism to survive.

How many people of today would be able to survive when things really got bad?


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## triana1326 (Feb 13, 2006)

marvella said:


> i think people depend on things they can BUY instead of acquiring actual skills. it doesn't take that much money to freakin' survive. learn to live *without* instead of stockpiling luxuries.


The reason I store chocolate and other "luxury items" is more for the worth in trade I'll get. I do eat chocolate, but it's not part of my meal plans, so if I can get a fair trade with a bar of chocolate or a pint of whiskey, then I haven't robbed my family of something we really needed. As for TP, well, it's a lot more comfortable on the tush than corncobs, right?


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## OkieDavid (Jan 15, 2007)

Neighbor and I were talking about this the other day. His plan was interesting to say the least. In his SHTF scenerio we aren't talking about temporary power outages etc...we are talking global collapse and all out survival. He reminded me of a couple that live down the road from us. To describe them as hermits is an understatement. He assisted the man one day with a tractor and noticed huge stockpiles of supplies. The hermit told him that he and his wife had survival rations for three years stored in that barn without having to rely on wild game, herbs etc......Their thought was while he was out hunting, the storehouse and his wife is left unprotected. EVERYTHING they needed was stored in their barn within 50 feet of their house. Neighbor told me his plan was to lie in wait and within a day or two, one or both of them will have to make a trip to the barn for supplies. The first one should be fairly easy, the second one may take some time. Taking them out and taking their stuff would only require at most a couple of days energy for three years worth of stuff.... Several messages in this scenerio but I would say the most important two would be- Watch who you show your stuff too and preparing means more than simply stockpiling......


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## triana1326 (Feb 13, 2006)

OkieDavid said:


> Neighbor and I were talking about this the other day. His plan was interesting to say the least. In his SHTF scenerio we aren't talking about temporary power outages etc...we are talking global collapse and all out survival. He reminded me of a couple that live down the road from us. To describe them as hermits is an understatement. He assisted the man one day with a tractor and noticed huge stockpiles of supplies. The hermit told him that he and his wife had survival rations for three years stored in that barn without having to rely on wild game, herbs etc......Their thought was while he was out hunting, the storehouse and his wife is left unprotected. EVERYTHING they needed was stored in their barn within 50 feet of their house. Neighbor told me his plan was to lie in wait and within a day or two, one or both of them will have to make a trip to the barn for supplies. The first one should be fairly easy, the second one may take some time. Taking them out and taking their stuff would only require at most a couple of days energy for three years worth of stuff.... Several messages in this scenerio but I would say the most important two would be- Watch who you show your stuff too and preparing means more than simply stockpiling......


YIkes...sounds like you need to keep a close eye on your neighbor if he decides he likes your stuff too... :hobbyhors


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## Mnt'n_Man_Dan (Sep 28, 2007)

marvella said:


> as far as game being quickly depleted... just who do you think has the knowledge to harvest that game? not many. and how hungry are they going to have to be before they actually eat it? heck, people turn up their noses at farm fresh eggs all the time.


With all due respect, you are fooling yourself with this statement. As far as who....how about the thousands of inter-city people hunting for food. Don't fool yourself into thinking because they are city dwellers that they can't hunt. Most city dwelling outdoorsmen hunt and fish as their hobby to get away from it all. Some of the best hunters I know live in the big city. And as far as eating it....oh yea, most make a very tasty deer roast. The woods could become empty in a very short period and I don't plan on grazing on my lawn!


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

marvella said:


> now, i'm not trying to be insulting... but basically, prep is for city folks that don't know how to make garden, hunt etc?
> 
> just trying to understand. i live in a place that is one of the most biologically diverse places in the world. don't mow for a couple weeks and there's food and medicine everywhere. i had to learn like everyone else, but why aren't people learning those skills instead of stockpiling luxuries? a couple of weeks of primitive camping should teach at least the basics of survival.


I think most here have or are working on gaining a working knowledge of those skills *as well* as storing foods etc. One cannot be overly prepared IMO...You should have many ways of surviving from storage, to gathering from nature, to small scale farming, bartering, etc. All skillswork together to try and hedge your bets against many types of SHTF's.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

Mnt'n_Man_Dan said:


> With all due respect, you are fooling yourself with this statement. As far as who....how about the thousands of inter-city people hunting for food. *Don't fool yourself into thinking because they are city dwellers that they can't hunt. *Most city dwelling outdoorsmen hunt and fish as their hobby to get away from it all. Some of the best hunters I know live in the big city. And as far as eating it....oh yea, most make a very tasty deer roast. The woods could become empty in a very short period and I don't plan on grazing on my lawn!



Y'know, reading this thread made me think the same thing... some folks are underestimating others abilities and intelligence. Just because folks live in a city, don't mean they're stupid or can't gut an animal.


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## OkieDavid (Jan 15, 2007)

City or country will face the same issues if you are counting on wild game....I believe when it comes to that, we will be on foot or horseback as fuel will be depleted. One MUST have some way to transport all this wild game. Sure, you can debone and package smartly in the woods but rest assured, just as the vultures circle the kill- there will be folks among us in the woods rushing to the sound of the shot. How much meat can you quickly de-bone and carry out or would you choose to make multiple trips? Obviously- the game closest to town will be depleted first requiring trips farther and farther from home. The farther from home you are, the more likely you are to encounter someone less skilled at hunting than you are but just as (or more so) hungry with people depending on him to provide food.....Folks I'm telling you the truth, when it comes to survival...all bets are off. A person with a fat doe strapped to their back would make a VERY tempting target. I've observed on television what happens when civil order collapses within the inner cities and I just can't see folks cheering and giving you high fives as you peddle down the street with a load of game.....Can you imagine how rough it could be?


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

pancho said:


> The majority of people living in the cities will never leave them until it is too late. They will try to stick it out where they are living. Even if a few do venture outside of the city they are not a threat to wildlife much at all. Hunting wildlife is a skill a person could starve to death learning if they only had what they kill to eat. These city dwellers who venture out will be either raiding parties or will scavenge. There will even be some living on the outskirts of large cities that will move in to take advantage of what there is left.
> 
> If there is ever really a serious SHTF the population will shrink by quite a lot in the first few weeks. Add to that number all of those in hospitals, resthomes, and the sick and weak people. Add a few more to that number of those who cannot go anywhere they cannot drive. Don't forget those who will be killed by gangs of scavengers and even the number of scavengers killed by people protecting their family and possessions. Add all of these together along with the number killed by whatever SHTF destroys. The number of people will drop dramatically.


.................I'm surprised no one noticed the vast difference in how people reacted in Houston , vs N.O. after Katrina.......in Houston thousands made their escape in their cars reacting too ther Guv'nors instructions , thereby causing a gridlock from Houston all the way to Dallas on both I35\I40. The folks in NO stayed in their homes or migrated to the Dome so they could be plundered or pillaged by the other low lifes who , also , had no sense of humanity or cared about their fellow welfare...Ites . , fordy


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## TonyE (Aug 1, 2007)

I get all my information from Survivor Man on TV! 

There should be enough wild life in the City to feed NYC for several days in case of some unfortunate catastrophesâ¦. have you ever seen the size of those rats and other varmitsâ...they should make great morels! :lookout:


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## marvella (Oct 12, 2003)

well, at last! some support!  

as for the rest of you, please go back and carfully read what i have written, not leaving out any verbs, adverbs or nouns. there's no need to be defensive. and there's no point in my repeating what i have said numerous times already.

good luck to one and all!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Mnt'n_Man_Dan said:


> With all due respect, you are fooling yourself with this statement. As far as who....how about the thousands of inter-city people hunting for food. Don't fool yourself into thinking because they are city dwellers that they can't hunt. Most city dwelling outdoorsmen hunt and fish as their hobby to get away from it all. Some of the best hunters I know live in the big city. And as far as eating it....oh yea, most make a very tasty deer roast. The woods could become empty in a very short period and I don't plan on grazing on my lawn!


Acording to the numbers hunting and fishing is a dying sport. Each year there are less and less outdoor sportsman. Very few city dwellers are hunters and the numbers drop each year. Nowdays there are even places where the hunters still in the sport can donate their kill, if they get lucky. The majority of hunters left hunt only for sport, eating what they kill isn't that popular. Tha majority of city dwellers do not even have any weapons and what they do have are more in the line of protection rather than hunting.

These are not my words, check out the articles in Outdoor Life and American Hunter. You can see the drop in the number of hunters and fishermen each year. There is very little likelyhood of city dwellers hunting wildlife in a SHTF. Several reason is they would not know where to hunt, have the weapons, transportation, knowledge, or skill. In a SHTF it isn't likely they will just be allowed to drive to the nearest game farm and be met with open arms. Going out into the countryside looking for game by unexperienced, unskilled hunters with weapons they are not familiar with will not do much damage to wildlife. Even if they would chose to do so they would soon starve to death.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

fordy said:


> .................I'm surprised no one noticed the vast difference in how people reacted in Houston , vs N.O. after Katrina.......in Houston thousands made their escape in their cars reacting too ther Guv'nors instructions , thereby causing a gridlock from Houston all the way to Dallas on both I35\I40. The folks in NO stayed in their homes or migrated to the Dome so they could be plundered or pillaged by the other low lifes who , also , had no sense of humanity or cared about their fellow welfare...Ites . , fordy


Either way, staying and taking your chances or risking the move out of the area resulted in much of the same problems. People were crowded together with a result of people dying. If it is a true SHTF where would those who chose to go be going to? It would be gridlock in every major city.


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

fordy said:


> .................I'm surprised no one noticed the vast difference in how people reacted in Houston , vs N.O. after Katrina.......in Houston thousands made their escape in their cars reacting too ther Guv'nors instructions , thereby causing a gridlock from Houston all the way to Dallas on both I35\I40. The folks in NO stayed in their homes or migrated to the Dome so they could be plundered or pillaged by the other low lifes who , also , had no sense of humanity or cared about their fellow welfare...Ites . , fordy



 less than true...over 80% evacuated from NO area...and of course Houston had the benefit of Katrina's experience ( hindsight) to propel them to leave the city...


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## wogglebug (May 22, 2004)

pancho said:


> Going out into the countryside looking for game by unexperienced, unskilled hunters with weapons they are not familiar with will not do much damage to wildlife. Even if they would chose to do so they would soon starve to death.


Doesn't matter much, as far as YOUR survivability goes. A deer that's had two near mises from incompetent city hunters is a deer you're not going to be able to bag while you're hunting either, no matter how much better you might be.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

wogglebug said:


> Doesn't matter much, as far as YOUR survivability goes. A deer that's had two near mises from incompetent city hunters is a deer you're not going to be able to bag while you're hunting either, no matter how much better you might be.


Experienced and skillful hunters kill deer every year that have been shot at by others, some even hit by other hunters. Those without the needed skills and experience will not be able to make a kill but those who have honed their skills all through the years will be able to kill.

Again, like I have been stating, those without the skills, knowledge, and practical experience will not last long if they are depending on wildlife for their food. This skill, knowledge, and practical experience will not just come naturally with a SHTF experience.


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## marvella (Oct 12, 2003)

fordy said:


> .................I'm surprised no one noticed the vast difference in how people reacted in Houston , vs N.O. after Katrina.......in Houston thousands *made their escape in their cars * reacting too ther Guv'nors instructions , thereby causing a gridlock from Houston all the way to Dallas on both I35\I40. The folks in NO stayed in their homes or migrated to the Dome so they could be plundered or pillaged by the other low lifes who , also , had no sense of humanity or cared about their fellow welfare...Ites . , fordy


it's a simple matter of economics too. the vast majority of those who stayed in NO didnt have a vehicle or any way to get out of town, much less any money to pay for a place once they got there. imo, that's the biggest difference in that case.


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## marvella (Oct 12, 2003)

strider3700 said:


> Since it was my thread that caused this I figure I should respond.
> 
> First off I asked for two things - lists of items and lists of things I should learn. I'm all for learning new skills and since this is my first child I'm sure there are many many holes that need to be filled.
> 
> ...


see, in a case where you have partial crop failure, i think you should take the money and buy tomatoes from a neighbor and can those.

a baby does complicate things as do the sick and elderly. but really, as my old boss said at the birth of his first born, faced with tons of shower gifts, all he really needed was a bottle, blanket and a box for it to sleep in. lol!!

now, if you were determined to stock up on diaper wipes (what's wrong with a warm washrag that can be washed and reused?) or disposable diapers i might have a few words to say.


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## Gary in ohio (May 11, 2002)

elkhound said:


> all you need is canning jars and lids...fill them with good homegrown goods and you are set for awhile.its just plain common sense from the past that you stock -up during times of plenty.


Canning is nice but your assuming your going to be able to stay in your home to use them. A Nuclear, Biologic or chemical (NBC) event may drive you out of your home with little to no time for gathering supplies.


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## Beaners (Feb 23, 2005)

I think the reason people stockpile things isn't just so they can survive. It is so that they can survive in comfort. Given the opportunity to make things a little bit easier on yourself, most people would take it.

This isn't a bad thing, it actually makes survival more likely. You are going to be in a much better state mentally if you are not spending your entire day trying to find something edible (or at least not poisonous.) I'm sorry, but I don't think I would want to survive the SHTF if my husband was not going to be able to wipe his bum with TP until the survival mentality kicked in. Sure, when everyone knows they need to do A and B and they can't get C and D they are going to be willing to do what needs to be done and eat what needs to be eaten. Until we realize we are actually at that point, I would rather have those luxuries.

If I have the money to spend on TP and coffee and rice, why shouldn't I? As long as no one is going into debt to do it, I think that there are plenty of far worse things that people could spend money on, compared to things that might help a family survive a bad situation.

Kayleigh


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

strider3700 said:


> Since it was my thread that caused this I figure I should respond.
> 
> First off I asked for two things - lists of items and lists of things I should learn. I'm all for learning new skills and since this is my first child I'm sure there are many many holes that need to be filled.
> 
> ...


I'd say.... to prep. with a baby.

Get enough formula for the duration (baby's need it till 1 year). Next get the supplies to keep momma happy(a happy momma = happy daddy). Next worry about YOU. Truth be told in this kinda scenario you come a distant third.


P.S. We keep about 5 months on hand with a little one as the goats take about that long.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

Marvella, I actually agree with you mostly.... but like I said, different SHTF scenarios are going to present different challenges. A couple of the reasons I just naturally gravitate to storing extra supplies:

I grew up in S. Miss, and my family always had extra supplies on hand for hurricane season. My first big 'un was Camille. I went down right after Katrina because my family still lives in Long Beach. There were no stores, no pharmacies or much else open or available. Fuel was hard to find. My family evacuated, but we went down when we did because we knew my Mom's house was OK and she had food there. We also stopped and bought supplies on the way down. The electricity was out for about 3 weeks where we were and between me, my Mom & my brother & his family & friends, we were able to make do with what we had on hand - and we did very well. There is no foraging to survive after a hurricane because everything is contaminated from the water and sewage. You either have supplies on hand or you are SOL unless someone is handing out stuff. We were taught not to wait for that.

DH and I are artists..... we work for ourselves, and our income is dependent on our ability to work. If either of us were out of commission for any reason for any length of time, our income would be severely compromised and the stuff I've stored away would at least take the burden of purchasing food and toiletries off of us while we got things back on track.

I can sit here and think of a bazillion different situations that being prepared would make a little easier.... it's not all about TEOTWAWKI. That, of course, would change everything.


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## JGex (Dec 27, 2005)

fordy said:


> .................I'm surprised no one noticed the vast difference in how people reacted in Houston , vs N.O. after Katrina.......in Houston thousands made their escape in their cars reacting too ther Guv'nors instructions , thereby causing a gridlock from Houston all the way to Dallas on both I35\I40. The folks in NO stayed in their homes or migrated to the Dome so they could be plundered or pillaged by the other low lifes who , also , had no sense of humanity or cared about their fellow welfare...Ites . , fordy


People who did stay in NOLA were not all waiting for handouts from the get go.... a lot of folks had supplies in their homes, but when the levees broke, the water either washed them out or flooded the homes. You can't eat or drink stuff that has been in a flood situation like that because it most likely is contaminated.

I had friends and relatives who had plenty of supplies in their homes, only to be lost when their homes were destroyed or flooded.

That's what made the situation so dire so fast in both South MS & LA.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

pancho said:


> Acording to the numbers hunting and fishing is a dying sport. Each year there are less and less outdoor sportsman. Very few city dwellers are hunters and the numbers drop each year. Nowdays there are even places where the hunters still in the sport can donate their kill, if they get lucky. The majority of hunters left hunt only for sport, eating what they kill isn't that popular. Tha majority of city dwellers do not even have any weapons and what they do have are more in the line of protection rather than hunting.
> 
> These are not my words, check out the articles in Outdoor Life and American Hunter. You can see the drop in the number of hunters and fishermen each year. There is very little likelyhood of city dwellers hunting wildlife in a SHTF. Several reason is they would not know where to hunt, have the weapons, transportation, knowledge, or skill. In a SHTF it isn't likely they will just be allowed to drive to the nearest game farm and be met with open arms. Going out into the countryside looking for game by unexperienced, unskilled hunters with weapons they are not familiar with will not do much damage to wildlife. Even if they would chose to do so they would soon starve to death.


 "Numbers" and articles presented by publications that promote what?........Oh, yeah.....hunting, and the purchase of products manufactured by those who support their efforts.......
Certainly, in some cities, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who has so much as set foot in the woods. That ain't the case in alot of areas, though. There are plenty of cities around (like the ones near me), that are chock full of hardcore huntin', four-wheel-drive drivin, gun-shootin, bona fide ******** that just happen to live in the city for whatever reason. Do you really think that the majority of deer harvested in this country are shot by farmers, or folks who reside outside of the city limits?
The whole attitude that us homesteading folk are so very capable, and the city folks are just a crowd of idiots awaiting death is pure nonsense, anyway. There's a lot of "surival" wrapped up in skills that have nothing to do with finding enough grub tho cram into yer piehole, skills that may be better learned in the city.
Personally, I'm glad to have lived in both situations.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

elkhound said:


> all you need is canning jars and lids...fill them with good homegrown goods and you are set for awhile.its just plain common sense from the past that you stock -up during times of plenty.
> 
> i got a buddy who canned 400 quarts of green beans this summer...now that is serious canning.i am not in that class of canner or gardener yet...but a single person can only eat so much.....lol.
> 
> also we can live on much less that we do now or most of us could...all those pounds would fall off...lol


Let's don't kid ourselves, Barry......
It takes way more than canning jars and lids.
How 'bout the cost of a pressure canner, man hours involved with planting/maintaining/harvesting/processing, green beans, fertilizer (or the cost of fertilizer-producing livestock), purchase price and fuel for the tiller(or man-hours with a shovel), etc.......it's a long list of underlying expenses, and this one don't even scratch the surface. Unless your day job pays a nickle an hour, it's much more cost-effective to catch yer green beans on sale at wal-mart, and stock up, rather than put all that time into growing/canning your own.
Yep, by doing it youself, you get a superior product, and satisfaction, but that ain't what we're talkin' about.


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## hillsidedigger (Sep 19, 2006)

I favor the concept of year-round gardening to too much effort put into food preservation. I guess folks way up North do not have this alternative.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

marvella said:


> i see threads about storing sugar, and toilet paper, chocolate, etc... things that can easily be done without.


They could easily be done without right now, but that doesn't mean everyone would be comfortable without them. If a person wants those things and has the space and money to acquire them for the future, then why not go ahead and get them? No matter how bad things get, it always feels good to have some normal items around to use. 



marvella said:


> seems to me any money would be better spent on some good field guides and weapons that don't require an outside source to supply.


Back in the 30's during the great depression, people found out that it doesn't work to try to live that way. The game vanishes, the fields get picked over and used up, the greens depend on the proper rain or they won't be there at all even for the few who can be supplied by them. Imagine millions of people walking out of the cities and picking every green thing they see and shooting every animal that moves. First of all, the people who own the land will be fighting to keep what they have. Second, even if the land is public, there won't be enough to feed them all. 

Everyones best chance to survive a pandemic or SHTF of any kind will be to be prepared to stay home until it's over or until they can form a plan and implement that plan.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

swamp man said:


> "Numbers" and articles presented by publications that promote what?........Oh, yeah.....hunting, and the purchase of products manufactured by those who support their efforts.......
> Certainly, in some cities, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who has so much as set foot in the woods. That ain't the case in alot of areas, though. There are plenty of cities around (like the ones near me), that are chock full of hardcore huntin', four-wheel-drive drivin, gun-shootin, bona fide ******** that just happen to live in the city for whatever reason. Do you really think that the majority of deer harvested in this country are shot by farmers, or folks who reside outside of the city limits?
> The whole attitude that us homesteading folk are so very capable, and the city folks are just a crowd of idiots awaiting death is pure nonsense, anyway. There's a lot of "surival" wrapped up in skills that have nothing to do with finding enough grub tho cram into yer piehole, skills that may be better learned in the city.
> Personally, I'm glad to have lived in both situations.


From my experience the people who promote hunting would be more likely to slant the numbers of hunters in the positive direction rather than the negative. Again from my experience these people might have a little more knowledge and research in the number of hunters than the normal person. 

I also live in Ms. You will notice there are not really that many large cities located in Ms. That may not be that obvious to a person who has spent their entire life in one of the "cities" in Ms.

Another thing you may notice living in Ms. The numbers of whitetails are getting quite high. Almost anyone with a weapon should be able to hunt and kill a deer in Ms. You may also notice it isn't unusual for deer to be killed inside of the city limits of many Ms. "cities". It isn't unusual for a deer to run inside of some business in these "cities". It is possible to see deer killed by autos in many "cities" in Ms.

It is very hard to use Ms. as a guide for anything which includes cities as there are really only 3 cities in the entire state.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

You know it's getting to be a pain in the neck. People complain if you try to take care of your self. They complain if you don't.
we loose a few hunters every year during regular hunting season, think waht it would be like if more inexperienced itiots were out there with shot guns.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

I just wonder how much dandelion, Chicory, and poke greens it would take to feed a family of four. (these are the most common wild edibles where I live)

I live on a half-acre lot in a city, and because I am who I am, I don't weed out the dandelion. On one side of my property is a county easement with a fair amount of poke, and which I seed with chicory (because I like the flowers and I know it has utilitarian value more so than because I actually like it). Even then, I can't imagine that even if I was the one who caught the squirrels and chipmunks, I'd be able to feed my family for more than a day or two just by foraging my lawn and the county easement which I graciously tend for them.

I garden, of course, and we can, dry, or freeze our surplus. I've also started a shaky kind of co-op with my neighbor where we plant different crops and share the produce. This puts us miles ahead of most (sub)urban residents. Still, without storage and preps, our outlook would be bleak.


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## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

swamp man said:


> Let's don't kid ourselves, Barry......
> It takes way more than canning jars and lids.
> How 'bout the cost of a pressure canner, man hours involved with planting/maintaining/harvesting/processing, green beans, fertilizer (or the cost of fertilizer-producing livestock), purchase price and fuel for the tiller(or man-hours with a shovel), etc.......it's a long list of underlying expenses, and this one don't even scratch the surface. Unless your day job pays a nickle an hour, it's much more cost-effective to catch yer green beans on sale at wal-mart, and stock up, rather than put all that time into growing/canning your own.
> Yep, by doing it youself, you get a superior product, and satisfaction, but that ain't what we're talkin' about.


Nick....lets not kid ourselves either about wally world beans.yes it takes time and other stuff to get produce to grow...but...even if you buy a 100 bags of beans form store and you eat one bag a week....well....it will run out.all things are finite....food,fuel and even our lives.so what do we do..???...we have to constantly resupply....that is jsut the basics of life.this board is about being prepared...we all need ot be prepared for somehting...it doesnt have to be SHTF or EOTWAWKI thing.just here inmy area this year there are 1000's of people without jobs...and another 850 are to be wacked from the big truck plant by january 15...sooooo.....i wonder if these people are prepared....food in freezer...or money to buy it ...or money to make any payments they have...but you get my drift.by the way....i put between 5 and 6 gallons of beans in frezer thsi year..they all came off of 2 short 35 foot long rows.i only picked once and spent the day putting them away...i also ate tons of meals off those 2 rows.i didnt have hardly any time in growing them at all...but it did take a bit of time to prepare them..but it is all good and it is jsut part of my chore list.tomatoes i put away came off 18 plants.....and i had lots of toamtoes int he form of canned mater,salsa and chili sauce...just the canned toamtoes were about 40 quarts....but thsi took time...but this summer i learned something off thsi board from moonwolf.....a Squeezo......i got a used one off e-bay for $40 dollars and let me tell you it is a hoot to do tomatoes with...no more blanching and peeling.jsut wash and squeeze.it done 3 gallons in less that 10 minutes.so i am really excited to be refining my capabilites to do "my thing" 

so for a more detailed thing...get some seed,a hoe and some chickens and rabbits for fert for garden,caning lids and canner and get to work putting away good homegrown goodies.you will be glad you did in hardtimes and jsut for the taste.....i love to garden and can and find it pleasurable to spend time doing these things......and i hope you do too.good luck to all in prepareing how ever you se fit to do it.


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## marvella (Oct 12, 2003)

NoClue said:


> I just wonder how much dandelion, Chicory, and poke greens it would take to feed a family of four. (these are the most common wild edibles where I live)
> 
> I live on a half-acre lot in a city, and because I am who I am, I don't weed out the dandelion. On one side of my property is a county easement with a fair amount of poke, and which I seed with chicory (because I like the flowers and I know it has utilitarian value more so than because I actually like it). Even then, I can't imagine that even if I was the one who caught the squirrels and chipmunks, I'd be able to feed my family for more than a day or two just by foraging my lawn and the county easement which I graciously tend for them.
> 
> I garden, of course, and we can, dry, or freeze our surplus. I've also started a shaky kind of co-op with my neighbor where we plant different crops and share the produce. This puts us miles ahead of most (sub)urban residents. Still, without storage and preps, our outlook would be bleak.


yeah, but the point is, you are learning more every year.


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## marvella (Oct 12, 2003)

JGex said:


> Marvella, I actually agree with you mostly.... but like I said, different SHTF scenarios are going to present different challenges. A couple of the reasons I just naturally gravitate to storing extra supplies:
> 
> I grew up in S. Miss, and my family always had extra supplies on hand for hurricane season. My first big 'un was Camille. I went down right after Katrina because my family still lives in Long Beach. There were no stores, no pharmacies or much else open or available. Fuel was hard to find. My family evacuated, but we went down when we did because we knew my Mom's house was OK and she had food there. We also stopped and bought supplies on the way down. The electricity was out for about 3 weeks where we were and between me, my Mom & my brother & his family & friends, we were able to make do with what we had on hand - and we did very well. There is no foraging to survive after a hurricane because everything is contaminated from the water and sewage. You either have supplies on hand or you are SOL unless someone is handing out stuff. We were taught not to wait for that.
> 
> ...


you are right. it's impossible to know what might happen and it is impossible to prepare for any eventuality. which kind of fits with what i say.... don't waste a lot of money on non-essentials.

for the "i can't eat my lawn" folks....you don't know what you will do until you get hungry enough. that's how i learned to butcher. it was either that or not eat and i had kids to feed.


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## marvella (Oct 12, 2003)

another point... just think about it... almost everyone in this country, except for the most hard core survivalists, don't know how to feed themselves outside a grocery store. they don't know how to wipe their butts (third world countries all use their hand then wash the hand, and that's likely what all of our ancestors did too.) they don't know much of anything about how to stay alive without electricity. 

while i enjoy the luxuries as much as anyone else, i think we have lost a great deal of knowledge over the last 100 years. which is pretty much the point of the whole HT forum, right?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

I was listening to radio today and heard a report I thought might fit right in this thread. It will show what might happen when in a SHTF situation some people decide to take their weapons and defend themselver or try to kill wildlife.

A man named Dale Culp, game ranger, conservation officer, or some such job, located in south Ms. walked out of his house onto the front porch. He looked down and saw a snake. He ran back into the house and grabbed a shotgun and went back out on his front porch meaning to kill the snake. While looking for the snake he disturbed a large nest of red wasp. While fighting the red wasp and swinging the shotgun around he accidentially shot himslef in the leg. The leg wound caused him to fall off the porch on top of the snake which immediately bit him. He was hospitalized for 16 days for a combination of wasp stings, gunshot wound, and snake bite.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

pancho said:


> From my experience the people who promote hunting would be more likely to slant the numbers of hunters in the positive direction rather than the negative. Again from my experience these people might have a little more knowledge and research in the number of hunters than the normal person.
> 
> I also live in Ms. You will notice there are not really that many large cities located in Ms. That may not be that obvious to a person who has spent their entire life in one of the "cities" in Ms.
> 
> ...


 ........You're assuming that I've spent my whole life in MS?
I've lived in MS, TN, IL, GA, AL, and CO. My opinion is based on my experiences in all those places.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

elkhound said:


> Nick....lets not kid ourselves either about wally world beans.yes it takes time and other stuff to get produce to grow...but...even if you buy a 100 bags of beans form store and you eat one bag a week....well....it will run out.all things are finite....food,fuel and even our lives.so what do we do..???...we have to constantly resupply....that is jsut the basics of life.this board is about being prepared...we all need ot be prepared for somehting...it doesnt have to be SHTF or EOTWAWKI thing.just here inmy area this year there are 1000's of people without jobs...and another 850 are to be wacked from the big truck plant by january 15...sooooo.....i wonder if these people are prepared....food in freezer...or money to buy it ...or money to make any payments they have...but you get my drift.by the way....i put between 5 and 6 gallons of beans in frezer thsi year..they all came off of 2 short 35 foot long rows.i only picked once and spent the day putting them away...i also ate tons of meals off those 2 rows.i didnt have hardly any time in growing them at all...but it did take a bit of time to prepare them..but it is all good and it is jsut part of my chore list.tomatoes i put away came off 18 plants.....and i had lots of toamtoes int he form of canned mater,salsa and chili sauce...just the canned toamtoes were about 40 quarts....but thsi took time...but this summer i learned something off thsi board from moonwolf.....a Squeezo......i got a used one off e-bay for $40 dollars and let me tell you it is a hoot to do tomatoes with...no more blanching and peeling.jsut wash and squeeze.it done 3 gallons in less that 10 minutes.so i am really excited to be refining my capabilites to do "my thing"


I'm not arguing the importance of a sustainable food supply. My point is that it DOES take more than just procuring jars and lids. If nothing else, it takes time and a place to do it, two things that not everyone has.


> so for a more detailed thing...get some seed,a hoe and some chickens and rabbits for fert for garden,caning lids and canner and get to work putting away good homegrown goodies.you will be glad you did in hardtimes and jsut for the taste.....i love to garden and can and find it pleasurable to spend time doing these things......and i hope you do too.good luck to all in prepareing how ever you se fit to do it.


 Absolutely! You know me, Barry, and I'm pretty sure that you're aware that I garden extensively year-'round, grow fruit trees and bushes, hunt, forage for what's available, and can and freeze quite a bit. The store-bought wares make a fine companion to the home-grown preps, adding an element of comfort and convenience.
If you were closer, I'd gladly swap you some eggplant, dewberries, or blueberries for some of the pickled habanero/egg/sausage concoction you canned up, and no doubt put a serious dent in my stockpile of Angel Soft.  
Yep, the squeezo looks tempting.....the blanching/peeling got mighty old this summer. If you don't have one already, have a look at a steam juicer....for sure, a huge boon to the homestead.


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## FalconDance (Feb 4, 2007)

What I don't get is this:

I have friends who thoroughly preach the whole preparedness spiel. They have several firearms and the ammo stored for each, nearly 13 acres they could live off of in a pinch, etc. He has a plethora of knowledge - blacksmithing, skinning and butchering, minimalist surviving in a really bad situation, etc. She technically has the knowledge including medical know-how (CNA). BUT every year, without fail, they allow the pipes to freeze (somehow buying extras for the cellphone is more important than skirting the trailer or insulating the water tank , for a very real example) or they run out of cooking propane (they only use the small barbeque tanks for the reg. stove because they don't want to pay a tank rental) and their backup cooking is --- the microwave! Run out of water (they have never, since I've known them, kept up with their water runs to adequately support the household) so no laundry can be done? No problem, just go to the local clothes closet and take out as much as you need for a $1 donation. And if that doesn't work, mooch off your friends who do have water and do laundry at their house. (Yes, she's bringing a couple loads down today - only a couple since I told her how I felt about the whole situation).

I realize we all set our priorities and have to live with the consequences. But, as mentioned here by several, SHTF isn't necessarily the electric going off for weeks on end or the entire economy collapsing or a tsunami so gawdawful that it reaches all the way to Missouri, knocking everything out on its way! You have no water in the winter? That's an immediate SHTF scenario. It IS in your power to fix that problem and perhaps even prevent it from happening again (duh). No electric? Have wood on standby for heat and cooking purposes, propane or kerosene backup if possible and viable (or in whichever order works better for you). Can't get out to the stores? Plan now for the spring garden - that means you fence your garden spot and then make sure your goats and chickens do not get in and eat your crops -- and that's assuming you got off your lazy it-can't-happen-to-me grits and actually planted the garden instead of waiting for someone else to come and till the ground and plant the seeds whilst you complained about the price of veggies and fruit at the store.

Practice what you preach would be a good summation .

In this world, there are Consumer and Conservers. The Consumers are the ones who think, for instance, that all meat magically appears on grocery shelves and have a real disconnect between cow (or pig, chicken, etc) and the hamburger on their plate. To them, there will always be grocery stores with goods for them to buy, and a caring, efficient government program or three to bail them out when that fails (yeah, they also tend to be Pollyannas). It is unfathomable that they should actually have to "go without" whatever it is they deem "necessary" for longer than a day or two without immediate intervention by someone else to fix the problem. "It" always happens to someone else, never them.

The Conservers tend to be the ones who may certainly enjoy the immediate gratification of the grocers' neverending bounty and such but who also know that if push comes to shove, they can survive without. They prepare, sometimes casually, sometimes intensely, for eventual societal collapse of varying degrees. What if the electric goes out? Ok, fire up the candles, break out the camp stoves, etc. Stores (for whatever reason) not open/stocked/an option? No problem, use whatever is on hand and perishable first then take stock of the pantry and go from there. 

Sure, I'm simplifying. Maybe even being judgemental. And that's ok. If it comes to a situation where I have to choose, I plan to survive .


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## Pink_Carnation (Apr 21, 2006)

Something else that people haven't mentioned is if you don't have stuff stored up and try to switch to foraged foods is what happens to your intestines with the sudden change in diet. You cannot affort for that to happen when everything else is falling apart. To be prepared involves both knowledge of what you can forage and what you can store. 

Toilet paper is a luxury and a way to reduce the spread of disease. We may have to go without someday but I will prolong it as long as I can.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

swamp man said:


> ........You're assuming that I've spent my whole life in MS?
> I've lived in MS, TN, IL, GA, AL, and CO. My opinion is based on my experiences in all those places.


You are assuming I really care where you have spent time in and assuming I really care about your opinion.

By the way, your name would not be Dale Culp?


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

What do you do when the last of the jar lids are used up? What happens when the seed is used up? What do you do when a jealous neighbor or some vandal shoots a few holes in your solar panels? Just some food for thought.


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## FalconDance (Feb 4, 2007)

bowdonkey said:


> What do you do when the last of the jar lids are used up? What happens when the seed is used up? What do you do when a jealous neighbor or some vandal shoots a few holes in your solar panels? Just some food for thought.


1. Grandma used parafin as a quick fix. Barring that, you're in dehydration mode.

2. When your seed is used up? Ummmm, if you save seed from your crops, then you always have a few to carry on the next year.....

3. There are vandals and other miscreants everywhere. Unfortunately, there will always be someone who can't seem to grasp the idea that he/she does not need to steal, cheat or otherwise act in such a cretinous manner. However, if your entire survival hinges on the electric produced by that panel/set of panels, there is a larger problem. 

Always have a contigency plan in place.


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## swamp man (Dec 25, 2005)

pancho said:


> You are assuming I really care where you have spent time in and assuming I really care about your opinion.
> 
> By the way, your name would not be Dale Culp?


 Nope, I learned long ago that very few will care about my opinion.

I responded as I did because in post #67, you appear to be suggesting that my opinion is what it is because I've always lived here, and that somehow, Mississippi is different than the rest of the country, both being falsehoods.....I'm setting the record straight, that's all...

We're echanging thoughts on preparedness here, and of course, we won't always agree. If that's more than you can handle (edited by Angie) self on over to general chat.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

swamp man said:


> Nope, I learned long ago that very few will care about my opinion.
> 
> I responded as I did because in post #67, you appear to be suggesting that my opinion is what it is because I've always lived here, and that somehow, Mississippi is different than the rest of the country, both being falsehoods.....I'm setting the record straight, that's all...
> 
> We're echanging thoughts on preparedness here, and of course, we won't always agree. If that's more than you can handle without getting your panties in a wad, then I suggest you prance your prissy self on over to general chat.


My responce was to your post doubting the decrease in the numbers of hunters and your doubts of the source of the info. I will stand by the research done by the American Hunter and Outdoor Life as they both promote hunting and fishing. You may have done studies on the number of hunters but somehow I believe their numbers may be a little more accurate.

Oh, nearly forgot. I enjoy GC quite a bit and visit it often. (edited by Angie)


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Gang - 
I think there's a few differences of opinion and outlook here, but I really have to request that you don't down play each other's character.

I'd appreciate you trying to keep that in mind as you disagree.

Thanks, Angie


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

I think something that people miss in these discussions is the _"real"_ reason those of us stock up and get prepared. 

If things turn really bad for long term, life in general is not going to be anywhere near what it once was. Life is going to turn very stressful, dangerous, and down right weird. 

I think most big time preppers do so in order to keep some sort of normalcy to life (especially with children). There will be enough going on, as well as enough to do, without having to forage for food, gather leaves for toilet paper, etc.

There is also a lot to be said for having familiar foods, well balanced diets, daily personal care items, etc. It gives the body a sense of security, whether or not it truly exists.

It also gives a variety of items with which to barter with.  

It is also a very necessary, and critical, thing for people like my husband and I who are disabled and unable to walk to hunt, gather, etc. As it would be for any one, if you became ill, hurt, etc. 

Now all of this is not to say someone could not survive on the land alone if they learned how; after all, people did it for thousands of years, but for many of us, why would we when what we need is available now? We simply view it as an "investment". Absolutely none of the stocked items is a waste! It's always usable and not wasted. It's also good to know that during weeks when you're short of cash or unemployment strikes, life goes on as usual. Food/supplies is the least of our worries.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

bowdonkey said:


> What do you do when the last of the jar lids are used up? What happens when the seed is used up? What do you do when a jealous neighbor or some vandal shoots a few holes in your solar panels? Just some food for thought.


Lids can be reused for many years. With a good supply of lids a person would have enough to last a lifetime. I grow heirloom varieties so I can save seed every year. It's easy to save enough seed from one season to share with several families so they will have a garden to provide for their families. Solar panels should be considered a luxury, not something to be dependant on. Luxury items are great to have, but are not necessary.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Spinner said:


> Lids can be reused for many years. With a good supply of lids a person would have enough to last a lifetime.


This is not true at all. Several years ago you might be able to squeak by with reusing a few lids; but today, lids are no longer made of a rubber compound, rather a VERY thin one-use synthetic combo compound. No way can you use those lids over. Heck, some of them don't even hold good the first time around anymore. :Bawling:


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## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Prepping is really not that difficult or expensive if you try to keep a closed loop cycle. 

For example, my garden provides me calories. In return, I try to use only those calories to work the garden. I don't buy expensive garden equipment and chemicals. If there is a problem, I just try and burn more calories to solve it (even the thinking kind of calorie burn). 

I have a few problems in my closed loop right now but I'm taking steps to resolve them. Most of the problems are with the livestock ... I don't have enough winter forage for them so I have to buy outside supplementals. It really makes you understand why in earlier times people drove herds to "winter pastures".


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## Aintlifegrand (Jun 3, 2005)

I firmly believe that you must have *at least* three ways to provide for yourself and family.. Ie) fruit...Grow it on trees/bushes, know what you can eat in your native surroundings and where it is located, stock up on dried/canned fruit...

In addition, we try to provide *more ways* for necessities that are vital...For instance, take water: 1) Rural water coming into my house 2)Well with solar pump 3) Rain catchment 4) immediate storage in water containers 5) location of a water source and the skills/filters knowledge of how to purify.

I think storage alone is foolish as it is finite...I think foraging alone is foolish as it could/liekly will become dangerous and unavailable, and I think farming alone is risky ( droughts. theft etc).

any survival plan must provide more than one way...


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Karen said:


> This is not true at all. Several years ago you might be able to squeak by with reusing a few lids; but today, lids are no longer made of a rubber compound, rather a VERY thin one-use synthetic combo compound. No way can you use those lids over. Heck, some of them don't even hold good the first time around anymore. :Bawling:


I must have got lucky with the lids I bought last year. I've been testing them for reuse. I have several jars of water canned reusing the lids. They have been holding for over a year. Last week I boiled some water and put in a jar, put a lid on and it sealed setting on the countertop. That was the 3rd time that lid was used. 

I have a friend that reuses store bought jars from jelly, pickles, etc. If the lid has a seal in it, she reuses it. She's been doing it for several years and says it works great. I had never thought of using a lid from a pickle jar in the store, but now that she told me it works I'll test it by canning a few jars of water. I guess it makes sense that if a factory can seal them, then we should be able to seal them too.


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## Batt (Sep 8, 2006)

Now Spinner you've gone and stirred up the "Safety" nazi's. You should never ever for any reason do anything that isn't approved by the FDA, USDA or some other government mandated, committee sanctioned, bureaucratic nightmare organization. :nono:

"Oh but they only have your safety and best interests at heart." Yeah right!


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Adron said:


> "Oh but they only have your safety and best interests at heart." Yeah right!


 :rotfl:

Things like this is what scares me... http://www.newstarget.com/022434.html


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Oh trust me, I'm not the safety nazi. I'm of the "each to his own" variety! I just don't like inaccurate information.  Once correct info is given, then it's time to allow each one to choose for himself.

Spinner, I will just say this, because I think perhaps you misunderstand about seals; then I won't mention it any more. I understand what your saying, but canning water and food are two different things. You may get a seal, but not good enough to hold for food. Foods are entirely different animal give off natural gases which can pop any seal that is not a secure-full seal. 

If you look at those previous used lids (as well as those from the store), you will see a line around them on the inside where they were previously sealed. You can see how shrunk in it is and how deep the compound has been in order to seal. You need almost the entire depth of the compound to seal safely. 

When you look at the used one, you can plainly see there is not enough sealing compound to seal a second time safely. Incidentally, the store brands seal by using even less sealing compound than home canning lids; plus it is of an entirely different nature (plastic) because they are used in commercial canners that get 2-3 times hotter than home canners.

It's kind of the difference from using a vacuum sealer vs. a water bath/canner. The vacuum sealer will give a seal; but it won't give an air-_tight_ seal.

So my thinking is, it seems obvious from all this information that used lids are not safe for canning with. You might be lucky using one, maybe...but not safe. But if someone wants to, I'm not going to fault them for it; each to his own.


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## Cascade Failure (Jan 30, 2007)

Interesting thread...quite a variety of approaches.

Bottom line fo ME... 

Although I CAN forage and hunt, I prep so I don't have to. 

I CAN survive on dandelions and whatever crawls out of a hot stump.

But I don't prep to survive, I prep to thrive.

Having extra doesn't hurt...I CAN either barter or weather a crop failure or not miss a meal if a predator gets my rabbits or...

I CAN get fat if I want to... something tough to do on forage and grubs.


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## Spinner (Jul 19, 2003)

Karen, You can swell the seals back to new condition by dropping them in boiling water with a spoon of baking soda in it. Boil for 10 minutes then compare the lid to a new one. They will look the same. The Amish have reused lids for years with no problems. It's easy to tell if a lid is sealed or not. The ping will tell you when it seals and you can use a finger to plink the lid to see if the seal holds or not. Then when removing the lid you can tell if it was sealed good or not. If you don't want to reuse lids that's your choice, but I reuse thm and have no problems so far. I do keep a close eye on the reused ones for safety sake.


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Bump...

For those that wanna live off of the land, and why some of us prep...


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2009)

I see a lot of good points made in this topic on both sides of the issue.

And it's true, some people spend an awful lot of money prepping. Some people take it too far (IMO), buying up huge quantities of arms/ammo, expensive freeze dried survival food, etc.

I think most preppers do it much like I do- stock up on sales, make sure necessities are on hand, keep a full pantry.


JGex said:


> I suspect that many of us find having a supply of niceties on hand is somewhat comforting in nature. Also, if the lights are only going to be out for 3-4 weeks, I don't see myself out scrounging for dandelion greens if I have food in the freezer or pantry.


Agree.



NoClue said:


> All of that really depends on the nature, severity and duration of the crisis known as SHTF.
> 
> Most people produce little if any of their own food. Many people, especially in cities don't even know how to cook without electricity. Even if they do, most of them live in houses where an electric stove, refrigerator, hot water heater, etc is the installed solution. Sure, they can change it, but it requires not only money, but knowledge they may or may not have.
> 
> ...


Agree on all points.


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## Zipporah (Jul 30, 2006)

> I can't see taking babies out hunting with me...they'd only cry and scare the food away.


 ditto

What if it's not safe or there is a curfew or contamination of some kind.Also how many others will be out looking for food and water ?


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

NoClue said:


> Honestly, as the head of a family that pursues self-sufficiency and preparation through acquiring tools, skills, and supplies, nothing worries more than "Survivalists" with a barn full of guns and a backpack full of MRE's.


You said it there! the book 'the Postman' deals with this subject.


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## BamaSpek (Aug 15, 2008)

alot of good points. 

I think everyone that can afford it would be wise to put back food and supplies for a year at least. 

If you live in the country with a good garden,even good neighbors and woods to hunt in...think of the post SHTF situation. 

Almost every place that is huntable has a small poaching issue even today....or at least the young local guy who will shoot anything and not worry about management of next years meat harvest. 

Wait till food becomes scarce, and that deer meat is priceless for families and in trade. How many poachers might sneak on your land how many deer do you think will be bagged every season. No night hunting rules...Feral animals like dogs that people cant afford to feed going hungry and hunting the same woods you are.

Also what if there were a SHTF scenario that caused you to not be able to live off the land for a while....... fire that burned out the animal habitat and maybe your crops. Radiation......just looters. It might only take one night raid to wipe out your garden and now your starving. 

People with land, ponds,woods for hunting are IMO much better off, but certainly should still prep as much as they can. If nothing else to help others who might be starving.


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## Ohio dreamer (Apr 6, 2006)

marvella said:


> my opinion is that if you just quit mowing for a few weeks, there's plenty of food out there. you just have to learn about it. wherever it is you live, i can about guarantee there's plenty of food out there, if you know what you are looking at.


No Thank you! Not because I'm against eating what is growing in my lawn, as a general principal I'm more then fine with it....but my neighbors spray their yards with chemicals. I don't believe those chemicals are smart enough to stop at the property line. Dog's walking by make deposits. City government has laws about not cutting ones grass. Yes, a year after the neighbors run out of spray and the city government has broken down far enough to give up some silly laws....we'll be able to get much of our greens that way (from April to Sept/Oct)...but that leaves a lot of no veggie time.

On my city lot (we tried to sell and "move further out'' but houses aren't selling in our region) we are not allowed to have meat producing animals - yes, China eats dog....but I won't. Hunting is great...if it's in season, if there is anything left to hunt, if one can find bullets (or re-loading supplies). Snares work....but I can't see driving 40-50 miles to set snares (no local "public lands" - we won't trespass on private land). I don't think there are that many small animals left right now to feed our state that long.

TP and chocolate. Well TP is a nice to have. Stocking up on it will give us more time to transition to a "new way of life" if the SHTF that badly. Just because I have a few months worth of TP in storage doesn't mean I didn't also stock up on old flannel shirts and such so we have an alternative option. Chocolate...if life changes that much for a long period of time it will be nice to have a few treats. Not to mention calories = energy. 10-15 M&M can do a bunch for moral and energy.

Yes, we could live off that land - our ancestors did. But they have 15-20 years of training before doing it on their own. That training was 24/7, they lived in a community of people with the same to similar training in how to live that way. My city neighbors (in general) have NO CLUE. I can't depend on them to help us out, share their knowledge or equipment as happened daily in my grandparents lives. Most 10 yr old in our hometown know how google Hannah Montana or Jonas Brothers, but have no clue on how to butcher anything. Times have changed.

Now that said, we homeschool and our entire curriculum this year will be bring many of those skills into practice. Kids will learn to shoot, forage, make a basic shelter, etc. So we are doing what we can to teach the next generation and learn/sharpen skills for ourselves.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.


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## Callieslamb (Feb 27, 2007)

Now there we go - folks trying to tell other folks what is best for the other. Next you will want a govt entity to make the decision for us.....

The beauty of prepping is that we get to choose how/what we do. If you want weeds - go for it. If you want tons of caviar - go for it. Use your money the way you want and how you think you can best serve your family!

:gossip: If your eggs are all in one basket - I hope it doesn't tip.......


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## ChristyACB (Apr 10, 2008)

Spinner said:


> Karen, You can swell the seals back to new condition by dropping them in boiling water with a spoon of baking soda in it. Boil for 10 minutes then compare the lid to a new one. They will look the same. The Amish have reused lids for years with no problems. It's easy to tell if a lid is sealed or not. The ping will tell you when it seals and you can use a finger to plink the lid to see if the seal holds or not. Then when removing the lid you can tell if it was sealed good or not. If you don't want to reuse lids that's your choice, but I reuse thm and have no problems so far. I do keep a close eye on the reused ones for safety sake.


Yup! That does work. I just heard about that and no matter how much I stockpile lids, eventually they would run out so it is a major concern for me.

I've just canned up some water, some honey water and some extra chicken broth that I didn't like the taste of with old lids that I did that with. I'm just monitoring them to see what happens with them. So far, so good. They are marked to not eat since this is just a test.

I did branch out and try to buy some of the big rubber ring jars for dried goods so I can use more of my other jars for canning too, but I don't like 'em much. I never feel like they are truly closed.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2009)

Can you survive without TP and chocolate? YES. Would it improve the morale? Nope. Would it make you feel deprived? Yep. 

If you force too many changes on folks they'll rebel, act on emotions more and generally be giant grumps to be around. Look at the Hoarders show. Everyone knows that if you go in and just clean everything out the hoarder would be emotionally worse off and the clutter would be back in a month or two. Same thing if you suddenly told folks they have to hunt, fish or forage for their food. Tempers will grow short and it can only get ugly. 


Besides, in a national SHTF scenario the trading value of a few rolls of TP and chocolate would make them worthwhile. We joke that if it gets bad enough you could rule the world if you have a case of tampons, chocolate and TP. It could be the new currency!


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## PhilJohnson (Dec 24, 2006)

If I tried to survive off of foraging in the middle of winter it would be pretty tough. Some bark is edible and pine tree needless are too but other than that there isn't much that is fit to eat plant wise in the middle of winter in Wisconsin. 

One time I went camping with a friend of mine and in our packing we forgot a few much needed necessities. I forgot to pack plates, silverware, pots and pans, and TP. After we got a few miles down stream in the canoe I remembered this but decided we were just going to try and make due with what we had. This was in spring so there wasn't much in the way of foliage yet. So instead we improvised. I made fork and spoon out of wood (we both had knives thank goodness!) and split some wood to make plates. I did remember to bring the cast iron skillet along. I also made a spatula out of a tin can, a stick, and a nail. We did have plenty of food along so no foraging was necessary. TP, well not sure what my friend did but I resorted to using nature's very uncomfortable version of the stuff for the entirety of the camping trip. Dry leaves are not fun and are no way a good substitute for the real thing. If SHTF I'll be gettin' telephone books and rippin' out pages before I go through that mess again. We had plenty of other things which were never used. Next trip I making a check list.

The point is having the right stuff would have made the trip more enjoyable although perhaps less memorable. Obviously in a long term SHTF event eventually substitutes would have to be found for various things but for the short term for sanity sake having a few small things goes a long ways in keeping someone's spirits up.


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## tamsam (May 12, 2006)

I remember this thread and although I have read most of it the question keeps coming up, where is all this land that everyone going to live off of and how are you going to get there? There is very little if any open land where there is not a;ready people living there. As far as getting there, how far will your car or truck go on the fuel that is in the tank? Most likely there will be no fuel or supplies left anywhere on the route you plan to take. As I see it if you have to leave home try to have some where to go that you can reach on a tank of fuel. Good luck. Sam


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