# Lock Down Lives Saved / Lives Lost



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

According to an analysis recently published here at _Revolver_, the coronavirus lockdowns _may _have saved up to 750,000 life years, but in return they destroyed 18.7 million life-years, thanks to the long-term toll of poverty, health problems, suicides, substance abuse, and more that are inflicted on the people through a weaker economy and long-term career turmoil.









Revolver Exclusive Study: COVID-19 Lockdowns Over 10 Times More Deadly Than Pandemic Itself - Revolver News


A groundbreaking new study commissioned by Revolver News concludes that COVID-19 lockdowns are ten times more deadly than the actual COVID-19 virus in terms of years of life lost by American citizens. Up until this point there had been no simple, rigorous analysis that accurately and...




www.revolver.news


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Exactamundo.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

One never makes the wrong diagnosis when viewing the case thru the retro-specto-scope.

When the decision to shut things down was made, it was the right decision...But as the data came in thru the next three months, it should have been obvious to all that we should have opened things back up completely ASAP....Those (blue) states that remain relatively closed are doing so out of a strictly political POV- intended to keep the economy dragging to make Trump look bad....Are the voters too stupid to see thru that?


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

doc- said:


> One never makes the wrong diagnosis when viewing the case thru the retro-specto-scope.
> 
> When the decision to shut things down was made, it was the right decision...But as the data came in thru the next three months, it should have been obvious to all that we should have opened things back up completely ASAP....Those (blue) states that remain relatively closed are doing so out of a strictly political POV- intended to keep the economy dragging to make Trump look bad....Are the voters too stupid to see thru that?


Are the dumb masses to stupid to know the difference? Absolutely!


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I love Earnest T Bass.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Many of the internet people are turning this blue dog into a neocon. I never thought I would live to see that day either. Have they lost all of their minds? 

I am not sure I can even vote for a blue dog catcher now.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Blue dog?

Neocon?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Dang. Learned something.

The *Blue Dog Coalition*, commonly known as the *Blue Dogs* or *Blue Dog Democrats*, is a caucus of United States congressional representatives from the Democratic Party who identify as fiscally responsible and centrist. The caucus professes an independence from the leadership of both parties and promotes national defense.[3][7]


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Blue dog?
> 
> Neocon?


I'm just trying to talk so they will understand. 

Not really a neocon yet but they are getting on my last blue dog nerve lately.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Dang. Learned something.
> 
> The *Blue Dog Coalition*, commonly known as the *Blue Dogs* or *Blue Dog Democrats*, is a caucus of United States congressional representatives from the Democratic Party who identify as fiscally responsible and centrist. The caucus professes an independence from the leadership of both parties and promotes national defense.[3][7]


I used to be friends with Charlie Wilson if that tells you anything. I was actually at his literal death bed 10 minutes after it happened. He wasn't as nice as Tom Hanks made him out to be either but he did care about both sides in his area. That was why he got elected. Even my mother (who has said she would vote for a mangy cur dog Republican before a Democrat) voted for "Good Time Charlie". He was that good to his people. 

Modern day politicians have forgotten how they got elected.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Neocon
Historically speaking, the term neoconservative refers to those who made the ideological journey from the anti-Stalinist leftto the camp of American conservatism during the 1960s and 1970s.[4] The movement had its intellectual roots in the magazine Commentary, edited by Norman Podhoretz.[5] They spoke out against the New Left and in that way helped define the movement.[6][7]


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## random (Jul 23, 2020)

HDRider said:


> According to an analysis recently published here at _Revolver_, the coronavirus lockdowns _may _have saved up to 750,000 life years, but in return they destroyed 18.7 million life-years, thanks to the long-term toll of poverty, health problems, *suicides*, substance abuse, and more that are inflicted on the people through a weaker economy and long-term career turmoil.


I've been arguing this for some time. Now it's touched me personally, as this was exactly the case with the funeral I just attended.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I don't think we can begin to tally the true cost of lockdowns.

I look at all the seniors who were locked away from family. Many with little time left to enjoy their loved ones, others who lost cognitive skills or completely lost the ability to recognize family members.

I see elderly who have lost vitality and are now sitting at home in front of their televisions suffering from depression because the groups and organizations they enjoyed are closed.

Besides the financial cost of weddings and family reunions being rescheduled, some will be missing family members who will simply won't be around for next time.

I've watched surgeries delayed because those hospitals were closed and know a few people who died because their surgeries were delayed too long. 

Border closures have separated families for an indefinite period of time and my elderly aunt will not see her grandchildren again before she dies, unless the border happens to reopen in a matter of days. 

I don't claim to have any more answers than anyone else but it's going to take a long time before anyone will convince me that lockdowns didn't harm as many people as it's assumed to have saved.


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## Vjk (Apr 28, 2020)

I can't speak for others, but the shutdown has been amazingly beneficial to me. I worked from home 3 out of 5 days anyway, so going to everyday was no big deal. It made it so I could spend most of my time with the grandpeep in SC. I've saved a ton of money everyone always wanted to go out to eat, now they just have to suffer with my home cookin. Tell me how helping the baby take his first steps or reading to him or feeding him etc. etc etc ...... is a bad thing. Tell me how this is so much different than Northern folk 100 years ago that were snowed in from October to April??????


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

wr said:


> I don't think we can begin to tally the true cost of lockdowns.
> 
> I look at all the seniors who were locked away from family. Many with little time left to enjoy their loved ones, others who lost cognitive skills or completely lost the ability to recognize family members.
> 
> ...


There have been to many deaths among the elder population and not from covid. There is a man in town that needed back surgery, he is now in a wheel chair and it's doubtful he'll be able to regain the use of his legs even with surgery. The hospital nearest us furloughed or layed off over half the employees, since they shut down elective surgery. There are many problems that have yet to surface.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I love Earnest T Bass.


“How. Do. You. Do. Mrs. Wiley?”

“I ain’t no creatchture!”


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

In the United States, and perhaps other countries, if an elderly person is alert, oriented, and not a danger to themselves or others (the same goes for those with mental health conditions) they can be taken home from nursing homes and mental health facilities as long as the living space is safe. It may involve contacting health and human services. Go get your elderly and mentally ill family members and take care of them at home so they won't be isolated. 

I know a family that is doing this right now, it can be done.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Vjk said:


> I can't speak for others, but the shutdown has been amazingly beneficial to me. I worked from home 3 out of 5 days anyway, so going to everyday was no big deal. It made it so I could spend most of my time with the grandpeep in SC. I've saved a ton of money everyone always wanted to go out to eat, now they just have to suffer with my home cookin. Tell me how helping the baby take his first steps or reading to him or feeding him etc. etc etc ...... is a bad thing. Tell me how this is so much different than Northern folk 100 years ago that were snowed in from October to April??????


You nailed it with your first sentence. It hasn’t been all negative for lots of folks in a position like you or I. The negative impact was/is terrible for many, many others.

Imagine being in an early stage of building your life and nest egg, maybe with young ones at home, and your gainful employment isn’t something that can be done on a computer. Imagine you’re a salon owner, and you’re told you can’t have a customer in your establishment unless they’re elected royalty.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> In the United States, and perhaps other countries, if an elderly person is alert, oriented, and not a danger to themselves or others (the same goes for those with mental health conditions) they can be taken home from nursing homes and mental health facilities as long as the living space is safe.


If they could be cared for at home they likely wouldn't be where they are to begin with.



Irish Pixie said:


> I know a family that is doing this right now, it can be done.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

mreynolds said:


> ...Modern day politicians have forgotten how they got elected.


Actually, they’ve just learned that getting elected is much easier than the way those old suckers did it.

Now, all they need to do is to pick the right party, and let CNN do the rest for them. Wolf Lemon will tell the masses BS things that have absolutely no meaning like “_murders happen because of multi-mag weapons_”, and “_we’ll never be safe until all the high-velocity clipazines are used up_”, and the brainless will repeat those “facts” with conviction.

Then, all you have to do is be the politician (with the right letter, of course) and declare how you’re going to _”clean up all the deadly high-velocity multi mag clipazines_” and the zombies that Wolf Lemon mesmerized will vote for you.

Why waste time and energy trying to do good things?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Irish Pixie said:


> In the United States, and perhaps other countries, if an elderly person is alert, oriented, and not a danger to themselves or others (the same goes for those with mental health conditions) they can be taken home from nursing homes and mental health facilities as long as the living space is safe. It may involve contacting health and human services. Go get your elderly and mentally ill family members and take care of them at home so they won't be isolated.
> 
> I know a family that is doing this right now, it can be done.


Great idea for those that are willing to and can. On the other hand why would they be in a nursing home to start with. Does make things complicated for sure.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Redlands Okie said:


> Great idea for those that are willing to and can. On the other hand why would they be in a nursing home to start with. Does make things complicated for sure.


What many people don't realize is that most "nursing homes", not specialized care facilities, do nothing that can't be done at home with time and effort. Three hots, a cot, meds, and help with the activities of daily living. Anything more than that the patient is sent to an acute care or specialized facility. 

Most people don't _want _to change an adult diaper, fall proof their house, provide round the clock care, etc. but it can be done, and those that need that care will be not be isolated and alone.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> ... but it can be done, and those that need that care will be not be isolated and alone.


Exactly!
And those blessed by the brilliant, poster-worthy leadership in your home state will be guaranteed LOTS of company.

...including an intentional random sampling of people who may have a really, really bad strain of The Cold.

I wish I could buy a poster to commemorate that rare genius.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> In the United States, and perhaps other countries, if an elderly person is alert, oriented, and not a danger to themselves or others (the same goes for those with mental health conditions) they can be taken home from nursing homes and mental health facilities as long as the living space is safe. It may involve contacting health and human services. Go get your elderly and mentally ill family members and take care of them at home so they won't be isolated.
> 
> I know a family that is doing this right now, it can be done.


And what about those that can't be taken home? Is it okay that they are declining, will spend their final days separated from friends and family or are they just a bit more collateral damage?


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

wr said:


> And what about those that can't be taken home? Is it okay that they are declining, will spend their final days separated from friends and family or are they just a bit more collateral damage?


Maybe if we had enough testing like the sports teams do a system can be set up to allow more contact. Are you okay with visiting your relative if you might bring in something that will kill one if their friends or neighbors? Do you complain when new mothers stop people visting their children that are not vaccinated?

Most people don't have all the answers. I don't and I don't expect that you do. If you can't bring your loved ones home, you don't have the right to put others in danger.


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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

In my circle of acquaintances there are very few people that have had covid. I know of a couple people that know someone who has died from it. But I know several people that have overdosed, committed suicide and succumbed to other diseases of dispair. Someone I knew well fell to dementia, and know of several others in the same boat. The human mind is the most fragile part of the body, and the supposed cure for covid is the perfect thing to attack it.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

painterswife said:


> If you can't bring your loved ones home, you don't have the right to put others in danger.


Wow. That is cold. So, it’s perfectly ok with you that the elderly sick person endures pain and death alone with no provisions made for an appropriately masked and gowned loved one to be by her side.

That is likely the most disgusting thing I have ever read here.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Wow. That is cold. So, it’s perfectly ok with you that the elderly sick person endures pain and death alone with no provisions made for an appropriately masked and gowned loved one to be by her side.
> 
> That is likely the most disgusting thing I have ever read here.


I did not say that. You only assume it. I am not happy with either scenario. I just live in reality. We have to work towards solutions with the options we have.

I have been separated from a love one when they were undergoing cancer treatment. Isolation room. I get how it feels not to be able to see them.

I have also had a loved onne brought home from the hospital so they could die of their cancer surrounded by the people they love. Home care is possible in some situations.

I am all for shutting down professional sports so that the tests can be used to get the elderly family visits.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I stand by my statement.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> *What many people don't realize* is that most "nursing homes", not specialized care facilities, do nothing that can't be done at home with time and effort.


That's great if one is able to provide care 27/7.
But again, if they could, they wouldn't be paying for the nursing home in the first place.



Irish Pixie said:


> Most people don't _want _to change an adult diaper, fall proof their house, provide round the clock care, etc. but it can be done, and those that need that care will be not be isolated and alone.


You keep saying the same thing over and over, and still ignore reality.
But why would today be different?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

painterswife said:


> Maybe if we had enough testing like the sports teams do a system can be set up to allow more contact.


Most of the "sports teams" are infected.
Testing doesn't protect anyone.



painterswife said:


> If you can't bring your loved ones home, you don't have the right to put others in danger.


If *yours* are at home they won't be in any danger.
Lead by example, and *not* by trying to control others.



painterswife said:


> I am all for shutting down professional sports so that the tests can be used to get the elderly family visits.


There's no shortage of tests, and most sports are already "shut down".



painterswife said:


> I just live in reality.


I think not. 
If you did you wouldn't say most of the things you do.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wr said:


> And what about those that can't be taken home? Is it okay that they are declining, will spend their final days separated from friends and family or are they just a bit more collateral damage?


Those that can't be taken home are in the best possible place for them. If they are not alert and oriented, they need to be protected, and in a specialized are facility they will be. 

Allowing outside people into a facility full of vulnerable people could be a death sentence for some of them. It's sad, it truly is, but if they can't be taken home, they must be taken care of and protected. 

What do you think can, or should, be done?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That's great if one is able to provide care 27/7.
> But again, if they could, they wouldn't be paying for the nursing home in the first place.


Like I said, it can be done if someone wants their family member at home and that person is alert, oriented, and not a risk to themselves or others. Most won't do what needs to be done, so the family member is in a nursing home.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Wow. That is cold. So, it’s perfectly ok with you that the elderly sick person endures pain and death alone with no provisions made for an appropriately masked and gowned loved one to be by her side.
> 
> That is likely the most disgusting thing I have ever read here.


The exact same thing can be said of every person who dies of Covid, enduring pain and dying without family. What do you propose be done to protect those vulnerable people that must be protected, and still allow them contact with their family?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Might be time to realize that everyone cannot be protected and perhaps its not the right thing to do in some cases. I have a really hard time thinking that all of the caregivers and medical staff have gave up their lifestyles and interactions with family and friends. Perhaps family are not as dangerous in all cases as some fear. 


Do what’s reasonable, live life best as can be done. Know when its time to move on. Where is the line made between caring and protecting versus warehousing and sending out invoices. Radical subject for many I realize.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> *Like I said*, it can be done if someone wants their family member at home and that person is alert, oriented, and not a risk to themselves or others. Most won't do what needs to be done, so the family member is in a nursing home.


Still repeating the same old lines, still ignoring reality.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> What do you propose be done to protect those vulnerable people that must be protected, and still allow them contact with their family?


People can choose for themselves how much "protection" they need.

If you were *truly* concerned about "protecting" people, you'd favor a ban on alcohol, since that could save 30+ lives per day.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Redlands Okie said:


> Might be time to realize that everyone cannot be protected and perhaps its not the right thing to do in some cases. I have a really hard time thinking that all of the caregivers and medical staff have gave up their lifestyles and interactions with family and friends. Perhaps family are not as dangerous in all cases as some fear.
> 
> 
> Do what’s reasonable, live life best as can be done. Know when its time to move on. Where is the line made between caring and protecting versus warehousing and sending out invoices. Radical subject for many I realize.



You sound like some sort of monster.
OLM-Old Lives Matters
CGHHAAOMSLMT-Care Givers Home Hospice And All Other Medical Staff Lives Matter Too (pronounced with the letter Q silent as in 'fish')
T Shirts are in pre production and will be available on Let It Go and Ebay.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Redlands Okie said:


> Might be time to realize that everyone cannot be protected and perhaps its not the right thing to do in some cases. I have a really hard time thinking that all of the caregivers and medical staff have gave up their lifestyles and interactions with family and friends. Perhaps family are not as dangerous in all cases as some fear.
> 
> 
> Do what’s reasonable, live life best as can be done. Know when its time to move on. Where is the line made between caring and protecting versus warehousing and sending out invoices. Radical subject for many I realize.


Sounds wonderful in theory, but healthcare facilities have an obligation to protect all their patients. Say bed one's family (because bed one isn't alert and oriented or their family could just take them home) wants to open the facility to visitors, bed two's family says no, they want their family member protected. Remember, the facility has the obligation to protect all it's patients. What is their legal obligation? 

Warehousing is all most nursing homes (not specialized care facilities) do- three hots, a cot, meds, and help with activities of daily living. And that can be done at home, if people want their alert and oriented, no danger to themselves or others to have visitors during the pandemic, bring them home. In my opinion, they have no right to danger other people.


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## random (Jul 23, 2020)

Not all insurance will pay for home care. Not all families have the space or resources to take in an elderly family member who needs care. So poor folk are screwed, I guess?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

random said:


> Not all insurance will pay for home care. Not all families have the space or resources to take in an elderly family member who needs care. So poor folk are screwed, I guess?


Nope. Medicare (as long as it lasts) and Medicaid will both pay for home health care aides, there are county/state programs as well (at least there are in NY) that provide respite for caregivers, a home can be made safe (there are even agencies to help with this), and the elderly can be taken care of at home by family. Being "poor" usually means more help, in my experience. The family just has to want to do it, and it's not easy. 

It's not much different than what my family has done for decades- parents work different shifts so someone is always home. Absolutely doable. 

If a family is worried about their alert and oriented elderly there is an option- bring them home.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Irish Pixie said:


> Sounds wonderful in theory, but healthcare facilities have an obligation to protect all their patients. Say bed one's family (because bed one isn't alert and oriented or their family could just take them home) wants to open the facility to visitors, bed two's family says no, they want their family member protected. Remember, the facility has the obligation to protect all it's patients. What is their legal obligation?
> 
> Warehousing is all most nursing homes (not specialized care facilities) do- three hots, a cot, meds, and help with activities of daily living. And that can be done at home, if people want their alert and oriented, no danger to themselves or others to have visitors during the pandemic, bring them home. In my opinion, they have no right to danger other people.


I pretty much agree. 

Just wondering about the ability to protect all patients from being infected by the caregivers. I probably should be saying the very unlikely ability to protect the patients from the caregivers.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Redlands Okie said:


> I pretty much agree.
> 
> Just wondering about the ability to protect all patients from being infected by the caregivers. I probably should be saying the very unlikely ability to protect the patients from the caregivers.


Care givers are trained to use PPE properly, or at least they should be by now. Masks, shields, etc. plus they change gloves between every patient, unlike the clueless you see wearing them in the grocery store (and lots of other places) who transfer infectious material to everything they touch. They are the reason I use so much hand sanitizer.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope. Medicare (as long as it lasts) and Medicaid will both pay for home health care aides











Understanding Medicare Coverage for Home Health Aides


Medicare may cover some services provided by home health aides but only under specific circumstances. We explore home health services and Medicare.




www.healthline.com





"Medicare *doesn’t* pay for most services that fall under health aide services. These include:


around-the-clock care
home meal delivery or help with eating
homemaker services, such as doing laundry, cleaning, or shopping
personal care, such as help with bathing, getting dressed, or using the bathroom
If personal care services from a home health aide are the only care you need, Medicare doesn’t usually cover these. They do cover home medical care services."


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Maybe if we had enough testing like the sports teams do a system can be set up to allow more contact. Are you okay with visiting your relative if you might bring in something that will kill one if their friends or neighbors? Do you complain when new mothers stop people visting their children that are not vaccinated?
> 
> Most people don't have all the answers. I don't and I don't expect that you do. If you can't bring your loved ones home, you don't have the right to put others in danger.


Ironically, you comment seems to conflict with the opinions of Canadian geriatric care professionals. They seem to unanimously agree that the isolation and cognitive decline of seniors is very concerning and are pressuring the government for change. 

I also think there is a vast difference between a new mother making a personal decision that she feels is best for her child than a ham handed blanket decision that seems to have a negative affect on an entire group. 

Would you be just as comfortable if that same new mother to be not allowed access to her child in it's last days or if it were in ICU and do we accept the mortality rate on those who's critical surgeries were delayed as well? A local man was a casualty of delayed surgery and I'm sure his family takes no comfort in the idea that he was sacrificed for the greater good.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Irish Pixie said:


> Nope. Medicare (as long as it lasts) and Medicaid will both pay for home health care aides, there are county/state programs as well (at least there are in NY) that provide respite for caregivers, a home can be made safe (there are even agencies to help with this), and the elderly can be taken care of at home by family. Being "poor" usually means more help, in my experience. The family just has to want to do it, and it's not easy.
> 
> It's not much different than what my family has done for decades- parents work different shifts so someone is always home. Absolutely doable.
> 
> If a family is worried about their alert and oriented elderly there is an option- bring them home.


After visiting 4 main Nursing home in our area we decided to take care of Father and Mother at our homes. There was appointed Doc to come and visit them in our home. The asia Doc said it would not work and we would have to put them in a home that he had part owership in. We said no. He said he would not leave our house untill we signed to have them moved to nurning home. We told him again to leave and we would could take care of our folks much better then his nurning home. The 3rd time he he repeated he could not leave untill we sign to have them move. My Brother opened front door and i picked him up by the seat of his pants and out the door on the grass he went. He said he was going to get a court order to have them removed. Ok. Go ahead but don't let us see you again. We never heard from him again. A different Doc. came to our house to check our folks after that and said how good our folks were doing at our house.  We took cane of them for 8 years. Bother passed away the same month. They were 82 when they passed away. We all worked full time and hired two ladies to be with them durning the day time while we were working. It was a trying time the last year when both were in bad shape. We did enjoy their company durning those years. The Jewish nurnist nurning home in this area is out of this world. Very good. The differents being it cost 4k a month to keep just one person there. They also receive money from the government for each person in their care. The extra money charged is for all the extras they provide.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> The exact same thing can be said of every person who dies of Covid, enduring pain and dying without family. What do you propose be done to protect those vulnerable people that must be protected, and still allow them contact with their family?


Your empathy for those affected with covid seems to conflict with your signature line. Are you suggesting that karma somehow makes them deserving to catch it and possibly die?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wr said:


> Your empathy for those affected with covid seems to conflict with your *signature line*. Are you suggesting that karma somehow makes them deserving to catch it and possibly die?


Good observation.



> A point to ponder- when many unfortunate things happen to a person, is it just bad luck? Or is it karma?


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

The following quote is from the NYS health department. I assume with proper care the nursing home patients would be ok. The reality of what should be done and what the caregivers actually do is of concern. 



“The timing of staff infections correlates with the timing of peak nursing home resident mortality across the state;”






__





New York State Department of Health Issues Report On COVID-19 In Nursing Homes






www.health.ny.gov


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Understanding Medicare Coverage for Home Health Aides
> 
> 
> Medicare may cover some services provided by home health aides but only under specific circumstances. We explore home health services and Medicare.
> ...


Both programs will pay for home health aides. *The bottom line is if you want your alert and oriented family member home, it can be done. *



Irish Pixie said:


> Nope. *Medicare (as long as it lasts) and Medicaid will both pay for home health care aides*,* there are county/state programs as well (at least there are in NY) that provide respite for caregivers, a home can be made safe (there are even agencies to help with this), and the elderly can be taken care of at home by family.* Being "poor" usually means more help, in my experience. The family just has to want to do it, and it's not easy.
> 
> It's not much different than what my family has done for decades- parents work different shifts so someone is always home. Absolutely doable.
> 
> If a family is worried about their alert and oriented elderly there is an option- bring them home.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Both programs will pay for home health aides.


*Sometimes*, but only under very specific conditions, as explained by a credible source.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Redlands Okie said:


> The following quote is from the NYS health department. I assume with proper care the nursing home patients would be ok. The reality of what should be done and what the caregivers actually do is of concern.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In the State of Mo. care is really bad in most nurning homes. Home care is also very bad. Has been for years. Nothing has changed here in 20 years. Same old bad care for the old folks. If you depend on the government to take care of old folks forget it. It will not happen. I have lived and worked in Canada and have some folks living there. Their systrem is much much better then in the U.S.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Redlands Okie said:


> The following quote is from the NYS health department. I assume with proper care the nursing home patients would be ok. The reality of what should be done and what the caregivers actually do is of concern.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. That was March, right? Which is why I said:



Irish Pixie said:


> Care givers are trained to use PPE properly,* or at least they should be by now*. Masks, shields, etc. plus they change gloves between every patient, unlike the clueless you see wearing them in the grocery store (and lots of other places) who transfer infectious material to everything they touch. They are the reason I use so much hand sanitizer.


From your link:

"NYSDOH further analyzed the timing of the COVID-positive staff infections and the timing of nursing home deaths. Based on published data, the average length of time between COVID-19 infections to death is between 18-25 days.[1] Therefore, the link between the timing of staff infection and nursing home mortality is supported by the fact that the peak number of nursing home staff reported COVID-19 symptoms on March 16, 2020 — 23 days prior to the date of the peak nursing home fatalities, which occurred on April 8, 2020. It is likely that thousands of employees who were infected in mid-March transmitted the virus unknowingly — through no fault of their own — while working, which then led to resident infection."

This doesn't have much to do with your post, but it's brought up constantly:

"NYSDOH also examined the potential impact of the NYSDOH's March 25, 2020 admission policy. A survey conducted by NYSDOH shows that approximately 6,326 COVID-positive residents were admitted to facilities between March 25, 2020and May 8, 2020; this finding is supported by an independent analysis done by the _Associated Press_ on May 22, 2020.[2] However, an analysis of the timing of admissions versus fatalities shows that it could not be the driver of nursing home infections or fatalities. An individual nursing home-by-nursing home analysis of admissions versus fatalities further supports this finding."


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> *Sometimes*, but only under very specific conditions, as explained by a credible source.


Yup. Exactly what I said. Medicare and Medicaid both will pay for home health aides. It's good to agree on something, huh?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Yup. *Exactly* what I said.


No, not "exactly".



Irish Pixie said:


> Medicare and Medicaid both will pay for home health aides.





Irish Pixie said:


> The bottom line is if you want your alert and oriented family member home, it can be done.


That's only half true, no matter how many times you repeat it.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

101pigs said:


> After visiting 4 main Nursing home in our area we decided to take care of Father and Mother at our homes. There was appointed Doc to come and visit them in our home. The asia Doc said it would not work and we would have to put them in a home that he had part owership in. We said no. He said he would not leave our house untill we signed to have them moved to nurning home. We told him again to leave and we would could take care of our folks much better then his nurning home. The 3rd time he he repeated he could not leave untill we sign to have them move. My Brother opened front door and i picked him up by the seat of his pants and out the door on the grass he went. He said he was going to get a court order to have them removed. Ok. Go ahead but don't let us see you again. We never heard from him again. A different Doc. came to our house to check our folks after that and said how good our folks were doing at our house.  We took cane of them for 8 years. Bother passed away the same month. They were 82 when they passed away. We all worked full time and hired two ladies to be with them durning the day time while we were working. It was a trying time the last year when both were in bad shape. We did enjoy their company durning those years. The Jewish nurnist nurning home in this area is out of this world. Very good. The differents being it cost 4k a month to keep just one person there. They also receive money from the government for each person in their care. The extra money charged is for all the extras they provide.


Thank you. I imagine your parents appreciated the effort you and your family put into their care. It can be done.

My uncle did it for as long as he could with my grandmother, she eventually deteriorated and had to go into a dementia facility. He was a dairy farmer, and had Medicare, and later Medicaid, home health aides help him. Plus there was a county program that provided home health aides as well.


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## 101pigs (Sep 18, 2018)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you. I imagine your parents appreciated the effort you and your family put into their care. It can be done.
> 
> My uncle did it for as long as he could with my grandmother, she eventually deteriorated and had to go into a dementia facility. He was a dairy farmer, and had Medicare, and later Medicaid, home health aides help him. Plus there was a county program that provided home health aides as well.


Some states are much better then others. In Ca. and Wa. state have much better home care then a lot of the southern state. Fl. and Mississippi are the two really sad states for care of our old folks.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

Who pays for nursing homes


wr said:


> Ironically, you comment seems to conflict with the opinions of Canadian geriatric care professionals. They seem to unanimously agree that the isolation and cognitive decline of seniors is very concerning and are pressuring the government for change.
> 
> I also think there is a vast difference between a new mother making a personal decision that she feels is best for her child than a ham handed blanket decision that seems to have a negative affect on an entire group.
> 
> Would you be just as comfortable if that same new mother to be not allowed access to her child in it's last days or if it were in ICU and do we accept the mortality rate on those who's critical surgeries were delayed as well? A local man was a casualty of delayed surgery and I'm sure his family takes no comfort in the idea that he was sacrificed for the greater good.


I did not say that I was not concerned with congitive decline or other problems that social distancing and isolation cause. It is tiring that you keep posting saying I am.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

painterswife said:


> Who pays for nursing homes
> 
> I did not say that I was not concerned with congitive decline or other problems that social distancing and isolation cause. It is tiring that you keep posting saying I am.


As a Canadian, I would have thought you would know the answer to your question about who pays for nursing homes. 

I never indicated what I feel your opinion is, I simply stated that the opinion you shared conflicted with Canadian geriatric doctors. 

Perhaps you'd care to respond to my concerns rather than express outrage over someone challenging your statement.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Irish Pixie said:


> Yes. That was March, right? Which is why I said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kind of late for many that have not survived the learning process. It’s the way of the world it seems. With the nursing home employees seemingly having the lower end of the skill set often times its a mess. Hopefully your right and the caregivers are actually practicing what’s being recommended.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

My son sent me this. It hits the nail with the hammer.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)




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## barnbilder (Jul 1, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> My son sent me this. It hits the nail with the hammer.


Spot on. I especially liked the analogy of extreme government overreach regarding a marginally threatening disease to a husband only hitting a wife because he loves her.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Redlands Okie said:


> I pretty much agree.
> 
> Just wondering about the ability to protect all patients from being infected by the caregivers. I probably should be saying the very unlikely ability to protect the patients from the caregivers.


Theory and fact are two different things. Our government imposed very stringent rules for those working in nursing homes, including not being able to work part time at one or more facilities. 

In the facility I'm familiar with, patients are no safer by locking people away from their families. The duty RN's and RNA's are familiar with PPE but each one of them has family and real lives and exist within the community and any one could be an asymptomatic carrier. 

Patients are visited by doctors, physio therapists, occupational therapists, denturists, various people from geriatric assessment programs, part time cleaning staff, part time kitchen staff, etc and that doesn't include those who are transferred to local hospital and labs for tests and x-rays or trips to dentists for optometrists. 

Thousands of people come in contact with those seniors that others believe to be safe while they are locked away from family members and it's unrealistic to assume all those people are all super cautious and caring while family members who want access to them are selfish carriers risking the lives of every patient in the facility.

Big noise was made about the seniors who died but very little mention of those who recovered. While we were reading about 'patients dropping like flies' in a Calgary facility with little mention of those who recovered just as quickly as the rest of the population.

Sadly, nobody is interested in hearing what those in nursing homes want and it seems like another case of somebody assuming to know what's best for somebody else with no compelling evidence to prove there is any merit in the theory.


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## random (Jul 23, 2020)

Irish Pixie said:


> Being "poor" usually means more help, in my experience. The family just has to want to do it, and it's not easy.
> 
> It's not much different than what my family has done for decades- parents work different shifts so someone is always home. Absolutely doable.
> 
> If a family is worried about their alert and oriented elderly there is an option- bring them home.


For some families, yes. For others, not so much. You're making too many assumptions.


Irish Pixie said:


> Both programs will pay for home health aides. *The bottom line is if you want your alert and oriented family member home, it can be done. *


I am an example of what you're saying: My mother in law recently moved in with us. I spent several thousand dollars remodeling our garage into an indoor space, including a bedroom for her. I certainly had the time and money to do so. But then, I'm quite well-off compared to most.

What about a single mother with three children, working 30 hours/week at minimum wage and scraping by with TANF assistance, living in a one-bedroom 700-square-foot apartment, sharing her bedroom with her kids, who still has month left when the money runs out? What does she do in a similar circumstance?

All I'm saying here is that not every situation fits into your description; people fall through the cracks. Also, I'm not sure why you've limited things to "alert and oriented" because that's not necessarily the situation with a lot of the cases in the OP, so you're only making a point about a subset of them at most.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

random said:


> For some families, yes. For others, not so much. You're making too many assumptions.
> 
> I am an example of what you're saying: My mother in law recently moved in with us. I spent several thousand dollars remodeling our garage into an indoor space, including a bedroom for her. I certainly had the time and money to do so. But then, I'm quite well-off compared to most.
> 
> ...


You're assuming that the addition of another person into the household wouldn't bring additional benefits, many elderly people do receive Social Security, pensions, etc. My entire point is: if you want your elderly alert and oriented family member out of a nursing home so they aren't isolated in the pandemic it can be done. You can get help from various agencies to allow them in your home. 

*Alert and oriented is a way of determining if a person is legally and medically competent. Google elder law. If they are not alert and oriented to name, year, place, and situation they probably won't be released from a medical facility without a court fight. In my opinion, if a person isn't alert and oriented they need to be were they can be protected, ie. medical facility.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> My entire point is: *if you want* your elderly alert and oriented family member out of a nursing home so they aren't isolated in the pandemic *it can be done*.


In most cases of those in nursing homes, it can't be done.
It's not just a matter of what people "want".



Irish Pixie said:


> You're assuming that the addition of another person into the household wouldn't bring *additional benefits*, many elderly people do receive Social Security, pensions, etc.


Most all that "extra" money would go towards the payment for services.
They would be allowed to keep $30 per month as long as they owned no property and had less than $2000 in any savings accounts.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> In most cases of those in nursing homes, it can't be done.
> It's not just a matter of what people "want".
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for your opinion.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you for your opinion.


Those are the facts.






Medicaid and In-Home Care: Eligibility, Benefits & State Rules


Learn about Medicaid programs and the eligibility requirements for Medicaid to pay for medical and non-medical home care, discover what services may be covered benefits.




www.medicaidplanningassistance.org





*"Eligibility Requirements for Medicaid Home Care*
In order to be eligible for Medicaid, and hence, in-home care, there are eligibility requirements that must be met. In addition to being a resident in the state in which one applies, there are also financial and functional needs that must be met.

*Financial Criteria*
While both income and assets are considered for Medicaid eligibility purposes, the limits vary based on the state in which one resides and the program for which one is applying. In order to be eligible for the regular state Medicaid program, one must meet the criteria set forth for their specific eligibility group. For the purposes of this article, the eligibility group is “aged, blind and disabled”. 

Generally speaking, most states limit one’s monthly income to either 100% of the Federal Poverty Level (FPL) or 100% of Supplemental Security Income (SSI) / Federal Benefit Rate (FBR). 

As of 2020, a state that utilizes 100% of the FPL as the *income limit allows a single applicant up to $1,063 / month*. States that utilize 100% of SSI, limits an individual’s income to $783 / month (as of 2020). 

*Assets are also considered and are generally limited to $2,000 for an individual.*

See state-specific Medicaid eligibility requirements for home care here.
HCBS Medicaid waivers and LTSS demonstration waivers generally allow higher income limits than do state Medicaid plans. Often, these waivers utilize the same eligibility requirements as does institutional (nursing home) Medicaid. 

As a general rule of thumb, in 2020, 300% of SSI is used as the income limit. This means that an individual cannot have more than $2,349 / month in income.

*There is also an asset limit, which in most cases, is $2,000."*


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Those are the facts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you. And that up to $1063.00, or if on SSI up to $783.00, would help support the alert and oriented person in a family member's home correct? Would they also be eligible for SNAP and other benefits? Perhaps the family member would be eligible for a larger home due to another person living there, is that possible too?


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Those are the facts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If the elder is in a nursing home paid by medicare they are already meeting these requirements.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you. And that up to $1063.00, or if on SSI up to $783.00, would help support the alert and oriented person in a family member's home correct?


It all goes to the service provider, not to the "family member".
It typically isn't enough to cover all expenses.



Irish Pixie said:


> Would they also be eligible for SNAP and other benefits?


Look it up yourself.



Irish Pixie said:


> Perhaps the family member would be eligible for a larger home due to another person living there, is that possible too?


I don't see how an extra $30 per month will get anyone a larger home.
You're grasping at straws.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> You're assuming that the addition of another person into the household wouldn't bring additional benefits, many elderly people do receive Social Security, pensions, etc. My entire point is: if you want your elderly alert and oriented family member out of a nursing home so they aren't isolated in the pandemic it can be done. You can get help from various agencies to allow them in your home.
> 
> *Alert and oriented is a way of determining if a person is legally and medically competent. Google elder law. If they are not alert and oriented to name, year, place, and situation they probably won't be released from a medical facility without a court fight. In my opinion, if a person isn't alert and oriented they need to be were they can be protected, ie. medical facility.


As someone who has taken in an elderly relative, the amount of money we spend on her far exceeds the amount of money she contributes to the family. Not that we have her here for money or would kick her out because of it, but it's definitely a net loss for us. Thankfully we can afford it. If we were poor, and she were in the same financial boat she's currently in, we'd have to figure something else out because we probably financially couldn't do it.

Physically taking care of someone who is unable to take care of themselves is a whole other issue. Yes, you can get people in, but it's not nearly often or long enough unless you pay out of pocket - especially if the person is immobile. In my case, I simply cannot physically lift her. If it gets to the point that she is unable to help me help her, again we'll have to figure another situation out. 

I'm not saying people can't and don't do it. But it's not a walk in the park, it's not cheap, and it's definitely not easy.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mish said:


> I'm not saying people can't and don't do it. But it's not a walk in the park, it's not cheap, and it's definitely not easy.


This is what I've been saying for the last two pages. It's not easy, and many families won't do it, but it can be done.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I don't see how an extra $30 per month will get anyone a larger home.You're grasping at straws.


I was referring to the single mother with kids who receives government benefits as indicated by a prior poster, ie. "poor person", if another person joins the household they may qualify for a larger home (ie. apartment, etc.). Apparently I wasn't clear, or maybe I was... doesn't matter.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> This is what I've been saying for the last two pages. It's not easy, and many families won't do it, but *it can be done.*


Alcoholics can stop drinking any time and fat people can lose all the weight they *want *by simply sticking to a diet. 

*It can be done. *


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## random (Jul 23, 2020)

Irish Pixie said:


> You're assuming that the addition of another person into the household wouldn't bring additional benefits, many elderly people do receive Social Security, pensions, etc. My entire point is: if you want your elderly alert and oriented family member out of a nursing home so they aren't isolated in the pandemic it can be done. You can get help from various agencies to allow them in your home.


You are speaking from experience?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> I was referring to the single mother with kids who receives government benefits as indicated by a prior poster, ie. "poor person", if another person joins the household they may qualify for a larger home (ie. apartment, etc.). Apparently I wasn't clear, or maybe I was... doesn't matter.


Perhaps moving is less expensive in the US than it is in Canada but I have found that even transfer of utilities to a new location costs close to $500 and that's not including the actual move itself. 

With my own trucks and trailers (which many poor people don't own) and volunteer help for moving, my last move cost over $1,000.00 in actual out of pocket expenses, which really doesn't factor into the budget for the working poor who will likely also have to rent truck or moving van.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

random said:


> You are speaking from experience?


Second hand experience. As I explained earlier in the thread, my uncle kept my grandmother in their home (he was a dairy farmer) with the help of home health aides (Medicare, a county agency, and later Medicaid) until she deteriorated to the point where she went to a specialized care facility. He lost part of the family farm to pay for what Medicaid paid out for her care. 

You have personal experience with Medicaid, I believe? I think I read that in one thread or another. Does your experience differ?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wr said:


> Perhaps moving is less expensive in the US than it is in Canada but I have found that even transfer of utilities to a new location costs close to $500 and that's not including the actual move itself.
> 
> With my own trucks and trailers (which many poor people don't own) and volunteer help for moving, my last move cost over $1,000.00 in actual out of pocket expenses, which really doesn't factor into the budget for the working poor who will likely also have to rent truck or moving van.


Yes, definitely a different price point for moving. We moved last November, I packed small personal items, the movers took apart, packed, and moved everything else. There was overnight storage, and they unloaded all of it the next day in the new house. It was a bit more than you paid doing it yourself, including a generous tip. 

Coincidentally, I received a breakdown of where our monthly donations go to Catholic Charities in yesterday's mail, and among them they help pay for moving expenses, utility hookup, and other incidentals. 

Again, if a person wants their alert and oriented person in their home and out of a nursing home, it can be done.


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## random (Jul 23, 2020)

Irish Pixie said:


> Second hand experience. As I explained earlier in the thread, my uncle kept my grandmother in their home (he was a dairy farmer) with the help of home health aides (Medicare, a county agency, and later Medicaid) until she deteriorated to the point where she went to a specialized care facility. He lost part of the family farm to pay for what Medicaid paid out for her care.
> 
> You have personal experience with Medicaid, I believe? I think I read that in one thread or another. Does your experience differ?


I would say you were fortunate that things worked out as they did. Your uncle was apparently in a position where he was able to accept another person into the home, and the additional costs involved were covered.

When my wife's grandfather was in need of care, her mother took him in, but not everything was covered. Fortunately, she used to be a nurse so was able to handle some of it herself. That's not always an option for everyone. So yes, my experience differs. Again, we were fortunate to be in a position where we were _able_ to take him in.

My first-hand experience with "the system" has often been a nightmare. From them constantly changing my daughter's doctors, to the denials of service, and the times where she was removed from SSI without us even being notified - times where I have had to solicit my congressman for help - I have to constantly stay on top of it. Again, I am fortunate that I have a job where I can take time to handle stuff like that on the regular basis that I must. In fact, I have another one of those matters to attend to next week because of a paperwork screwup on their end.



Irish Pixie said:


> Again, if a person wants their alert and oriented person in their home and out of a nursing home, it can be done.


That single mother is someone who lived in my apartment building. Her having to take in a parent was, thankfully, _not_ something she actually had to deal with. But I used the example because there simply was no possible way for her to bear the costs, not just financial, but emotional and to her time (there are costs beyond just money). 

At that time, living in that ghetto, I wouldn't have been able to do it either, not matter how much I wanted to. Today I am in a much better place, and can (and am) doing what I can for a family member.

You have personally seen things work out. That's not always the case. Don't extrapolate from your personal experience to everyone's. Please, try to have a little bit of sympathy and understanding for people who are not as well off and don't have the options you have had. You're making a blanket statement that simply does not always hold true. I'm just asking you to remember those whose life circumstances don't offer them any choices, or at least no viable ones, on such matters.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Second hand experience. As I explained earlier in the thread, my uncle kept my grandmother in their home (he was a dairy farmer) with the help of home health aides (Medicare, a county agency, and later Medicaid) until she deteriorated to the point where she went to a specialized care facility. He lost part of the family farm to pay for what Medicaid paid out for her care.
> 
> You have personal experience with Medicaid, I believe? I think I read that in one thread or another. Does your experience differ?


I have personal experience. Yes, its completely different.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

random said:


> I would say you were fortunate that things worked out as they did. Your uncle was apparently in a position where he was able to accept another person into the home, and the additional costs involved were covered.
> 
> When my wife's grandfather was in need of care, her mother took him in, but not everything was covered. Fortunately, she used to be a nurse so was able to handle some of it herself. That's not always an option for everyone. So yes, my experience differs. Again, we were fortunate to be in a position where we were _able_ to take him in.
> 
> ...


My uncle, if you had read the thread or my prior post, kept my grandmother in *their* home, the family dairy farm. He never married, it was just the two of them, living on the milk and calf sales of a 40 (at most) head operation, timber sales, and a gravel pit. You can understand this wasn't the lap of luxury, correct? Sometimes life circumstances don't offer many choices, you are correct. He did it, with the help of home health aides for several years, because he'd always told her he would. Perhaps you shouldn't assume so much. 

I had small children, a full time job, and lived 4+ hours away and did what I could, which usually amounted to paying his electric and phone bill so I could get hold of them. It was all he'd let me do. 

You asked if I had personal experience, yes. I also know of others that have done the same thing, and I know of one family right now in the process of removing an alert and oriented family member from a nursing home. They are not as economical challenged as my uncle and grandmother, but they're doing it during a pandemic.

I stand by this- if you (collective you) want your family member at home, it can be done.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> *Again*, if a person wants their alert and oriented person in their home and out of a nursing home, it can be done.


So you keep saying.



Irish Pixie said:


> Second hand experience.





Irish Pixie said:


> I had small children, a full time job, and lived 4+ hours away and did what I could, which usually amounted to paying his electric and phone bill so I could get hold of them. It was all he'd let me do.


Social services would have paid those bills if they qualified for help.



Irish Pixie said:


> You asked if I had personal experience, yes. I also know of others that have done the same thing, and I know of one family right now in the process of removing an alert and oriented family member from a nursing home. They are not as economical challenged as my uncle and grandmother, but they're doing it during a pandemic.


More anecdotes.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> More anecdotes.


Yes. That is what "experience" means. 



random said:


> You are speaking from experience?


----------



## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

If masks, hand washing, sanitization and lockdown measures worked, covid would not have spread through nursing homes like wildfire.

If masks, hand washing and sanitization kept covid from spreading there was no reason to keep the family (restricted to one or two support people) from visiting.

My mother in law was in a nursing facility before covid hit. Her caretaker had to fight with doctors and the hospital to get her out of the facility. It took 2 weeks. During the time she was in the facility her care would have been neglected if someone was not with her. I saw how other patients were neglected with no one responding to nurse calls.

During the time she was there, little to no measures were implemented to prevent the spread of disease despite it being the height of the flu season.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Danaus29 said:


> If masks, hand washing, sanitization and lockdown measures worked, covid would not have spread through nursing homes like wildfire.
> 
> If masks, hand washing and sanitization kept covid from spreading there was no reason to keep the family (restricted to one or two support people) from visiting.


The problem was in the beginning of the pandemic, March and early April in NY. There weren't masks and lock down back then, it took deaths and some time to realize that we were fed a load of BS about how infectious Covid can be. We're just finding out now that it was known in February that Covid was going to be a big issue. 

This is just my opinion, and I'm sure we're going to have to agree to disagree.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Irish Pixie said:


> Yes. That is what "experience" means.


"Anecdote" means stories that can't be confirmed.
You already said you have *no* first hand experience.




> Irish Pixie said:





> Second hand experience.


Everyone with *firsthand* experience has tried to tell you you're mistaken.
Some have even shown you data to support what they said.
Which version seems more credible?


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> "Anecdote" means stories that can't be confirmed.
> You already said you have *no* first hand experience.





random said:


> *You are speaking from experience?*


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Thank you for proving my points.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> The problem was in the beginning of the pandemic, March and early April in NY. There weren't masks and lock down back then, it took deaths and some time to realize that we were fed a load of BS about how infectious Covid can be. We're just finding out now that it was known in February that Covid was going to be a big issue.
> 
> This is just my opinion, and I'm sure we're going to have to agree to disagree.


The ones here happened after the lock-down. Just recently a nursing home near my mom has been overrun with covid. I know all of New York was hit hard and fast. But in many states it is just now spreading rapidly. Nursing homes still in lock down mode with no visitors but the virus has run rampant. Newark, Ohio had a nursing home where many residents died in July and early August. In Ohio the majority of the covid deaths were nursing home residents.








2,797 Ohio nursing home patients have died with coronavirus; 65% of Ohio’s total COVID-19 deaths


Ohio reports 87 new COVID-19 deaths to long-term care facility patients.




www.cleveland.com


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Thank you for proving my points.


----------



## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Danaus29 said:


> The ones here happened after the lock-down. Just recently a nursing home near my mom has been overrun with covid. I know all of New York was hit hard and fast. But in many states it is just now spreading rapidly. Nursing homes still in lock down mode with no visitors but the virus has run rampant. Newark, Ohio had a nursing home where many residents died in July and early August. In Ohio the majority of the covid deaths were nursing home residents.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not familiar with what happened anywhere but New York. It sounds to me like guidelines weren't being followed, or were just relaxed. It's terrible that it happened.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

It is happening all across my state. Yes, most guidelines and protocols were ignored. Ohio is too lax on nursing home oversight. Even before covid, disease and infections were problems in nursing homes. So was neglect and abuse.I can only imagine that it is worse now without family members being involved


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> It is happening all across my state. Yes, most guidelines and protocols were ignored. Ohio is too lax on nursing home oversight. Even before covid, disease and infections were problems in nursing homes. So was neglect and abuse.I can only imagine that it is worse now without family members being involved


We have had a few also here in town. It is odd that some are bad and most are not. That cant be coincidence.


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## random (Jul 23, 2020)

Irish Pixie said:


> My uncle, if you had read the thread or my prior post, kept my grandmother in *their* home, the family dairy farm. He never married, it was just the two of them, living on the milk and calf sales of a 40 (at most) head operation, timber sales, and a gravel pit. You can understand this wasn't the lap of luxury, correct? Sometimes life circumstances don't offer many choices, you are correct. He did it, with the help of home health aides for several years, because he'd always told her he would. Perhaps you shouldn't assume so much.


Well, I was assuming that he had a home where he could take her in, and that's about it. Never assumed "lap of luxury". It's still a different circumstance.



> I stand by this- if you (collective you) want your family member at home, it can be done.


For many, perhaps. For all, no.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Danaus29 said:


> The ones here happened after the lock-down. Just recently a nursing home near my mom has been overrun with covid. I know all of New York was hit hard and fast. But in many states it is just now spreading rapidly. Nursing homes still in lock down mode with no visitors but the virus has run rampant. Newark, Ohio had a nursing home where many residents died in July and early August. In Ohio the majority of the covid deaths were nursing home residents.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know why people think it won't happen. It's not like those in nursing homes have some magic shield that keeps them safe. 

Aside from direct unit staff (RN's, RNA's and Aids), patients are seen by doctors, physio therapists, occupational therapists, geriatric assessment people, facility doctors, personal doctors, denturists, dentists. Also from the outside world is unit clerks, office staff, cleaning and laundry staff and food preparation staff, servers, etc. 

In order to believe that people in nursing homes are safer locked away from family, we also have to assume that all those people mentioned are also self isolating and not in contact with anyone who may be infected. 

I see many staff shopping as well, hear conversations about weekend camping trips and family reunions, know that some of the part time staff also work at Walmart, drive cab or work at the local tavern for extra income. 

I still can't grasp the idea that a large group are safe to access patients and family members are not.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

I haven't been following this thread, so forgive me if this has been mentioned before: NHs are not hospitals. They are neither constructed physically nor equipped nor logistically able to provide the necessary isolation for a wide spread, air borne infectious disease like CoViD.

Secondly, let it be known that the average Length of Stay (life expectancy, if you will) of a new NH admission is only 5 months (that's median stay; mean is a little longer because there are the less common cases where a resident stays alive there for a couple years.)...*Statistically speaking*: CoViD has not increased the death rate among NH pts-- They were doomed to die soon anyway. When things are totaled up after one year, you will see that there will have been *no excess deaths* in the NHs.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Which makes it all the more unreasonable that NH residents were locked away from their families.


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## Macrocarpus (Jan 30, 2018)

The figures posted by the OP assume that it is better to let the virus go, kill all the old and weak, let it expand exponentially so that those young and strong can go on with their lives unhampered. If you are talking wild animals, that is what happens, but if you are talking cattle any rancher would vaccinate, isolate, do anything he could to save his herd. No one, anywhere, had any idea how to face this pandemic. Perhaps next time we will let the chips fall where they may.


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## Redlands Okie (Nov 28, 2017)

Might as well until you know what to to for the situation. Might be causing more harm than good.


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## Hiro (Feb 14, 2016)

doc- said:


> I haven't been following this thread, so forgive me if this has been mentioned before: NHs are not hospitals. They are neither constructed physically nor equipped nor logistically able to provide the necessary isolation for a wide spread, air borne infectious disease like CoViD.
> 
> Secondly, let it be known that the average Length of Stay (life expectancy, if you will) of a new NH admission is only 5 months (that's median stay; mean is a little longer because there are the less common cases where a resident stays alive there for a couple years.)...*Statistically speaking*: CoViD has not increased the death rate among NH pts-- They were doomed to die soon anyway. When things are totaled up after one year, you will see that there will have been *no excess deaths* in the NHs.


I previously believed that in the next few years a diligent statistical analysis would show the true mortality rate for the Wuflu. I no longer think it will be possible. It is likely there will be so many deaths due to the economic effects of lockdowns, lack of early diagnoses of cancer or heart disease, psychological effects of the fear mongering, etc. there will be no statistically relevant way to separate it out. 

Granted, I live in a rural area. But, it is hard to escape, even by casual observation, the local rag of a newspaper hyping the cases and their lack of self awareness with the next issue noting that overdose deaths have increased....math is hard for journalist I know. But, the increase in overdose deaths is significantly higher than the Wuflu deaths here. Anyway, I am a generally zen dude; but, this really is beginning to damage my calm.....not the Wuflu, the effects of the hype and anger towards other citizens that had nothing to do with this virus and are similarly at risk.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Back at the beginning when we first went into lock-down you couldn't get a doctor to see you for anything. I had the unfortunate experience of having a sore throat that kept getting worse. All I could think was "I'm going to die from strep throat because everyone is panicking about covid!" Finally I convinced my doctor to phone in an antibiotic scrip just in case. Within 24 hours of starting the antibiotics I felt much better.

There is no doubt in my mind that the long term effects of the panic that is still occuring in the medical system will cause the loss of lives which could have been extended many years under normal circumstances.

My hubby had to postpone some badly needed dental work because dentists stopped seeing patients. He'll probably lose a few teeth because of covid.

Don't get me started on the long lasting effects of releasing prisoners so they wouldn't risk getting covid in jail. Their health care was much better than what was given to nursing home residents.


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## random (Jul 23, 2020)

Danaus29 said:


> Back at the beginning when we first went into lock-down you couldn't get a doctor to see you for anything. I had the unfortunate experience of having a sore throat that kept getting worse. All I could think was "I'm going to die from strep throat because everyone is panicking about covid!" Finally I convinced my doctor to phone in an antibiotic scrip just in case. Within 24 hours of starting the antibiotics I felt much better.
> 
> <...>
> 
> My hubby had to postpone some badly needed dental work because dentists stopped seeing patients. He'll probably lose a few teeth because of covid.


Around May or so in the thick of this, I busted a tooth. Had a big gaping hole in it. Dentist did not consider that to be an emergency and told me "call back if you are in unbearable pain".
I found another dentist that DID consider it an emergency. And now I have changed dentists permanently.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I went to visit my mother today who has moved into an apartment in the same building and mistakenly walked through the wrong door and it was an enlightening experience.


Danaus29 said:


> Back at the beginning when we first went into lock-down you couldn't get a doctor to see you for anything. I had the unfortunate experience of having a sore throat that kept getting worse. All I could think was "I'm going to die from strep throat because everyone is panicking about covid!" Finally I convinced my doctor to phone in an antibiotic scrip just in case. Within 24 hours of starting the antibiotics I felt much better.
> 
> There is no doubt in my mind that the long term effects of the panic that is still occuring in the medical system will cause the loss of lives which could have been extended many years under normal circumstances.
> 
> ...


A young man in Saskatchewan died because his surgery was postponed for virus control and I doubt very much if he's the only one. 

He was an accident years before that damaged his heart quite badly and required regular surgery to keep things running smoothly. 

His scheduled surgery was cancelled because of the virus and rescheduled twice before he simply died in hospital from the consequences of postponed surgery. 

One of our driver's wives will likely die long before she gets what she needs. Her surgery to correct 4 aneurysms on her brain was cancelled for the virus. 

Those are only a couple of examples and there are many more.


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## random (Jul 23, 2020)

wr said:


> Those are only a couple of examples and there are many more.


I "Liked" that because there's really no other option, but there's really nothing to "like" about what you posted.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

doc- said:


> I haven't been following this thread, so forgive me if this has been mentioned before: NHs are not hospitals. They are neither constructed physically nor equipped nor logistically able to provide the necessary isolation for a wide spread, air borne infectious disease like CoViD.
> 
> Secondly, let it be known that the average Length of Stay (life expectancy, if you will) of a new NH admission is only 5 months (that's median stay; mean is a little longer because there are the less common cases where a resident stays alive there for a couple years.)...*Statistically speaking*: CoViD has not increased the death rate among NH pts-- They were doomed to die soon anyway. When things are totaled up after one year, you will see that there will have been *no excess deaths* in the NHs.


Thank you for posting this information.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Healthcare Workers


COVID-19 guidance, tools, and resources for healthcare workers.




www.cdc.gov






> The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) recently issued Nursing Home Reopening Guidance for State and Local Officialspdf iconexternal icon that outlines criteria that could be used to determine when nursing homes could relax restrictions on visitation and group activities and when such restrictions should be reimplemented. Nursing homes should consider the current situation in their facility and community and refer to that guidance as well as direction from state and local officials when making decisions about relaxing restrictions. When relaxing any restrictions, nursing homes must* remain vigilant for COVID-19 among residents and HCP in order to prevent spread and protect residents and HCP* from severe infections, hospitalizations, and death.


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