# Guarding PLUS Farm dog??



## mamahen

I've posted before about wanting an all-around farm dog. One that will enjoy being with the family, be safe (and watch out for) the stock, patrol/guard the property but NOT be too human aggressive (unless provoked). We have a little over 50 acres, woods & field. 

My ideal dog would be short to medium haired (nothing too shaggy, but blowing a coat twice a year is ok), on the larger side (over 100 lbs would be great, but slightly smaller is ok).

Is there such a dog? I mean, I know there is but which breed? I like to research breeds completely before I start a hard search.

Breeds I am thinking of: 

*Bullmastiff*

*Boerboel*

*Central Asian Shepherd* (I've had a hard time keeping 2 similar breeds apart, it seems some call these dogs CAO OR CAS, but I thought those were 2 seperate breeds?)

*English Mastiff*

*American Bulldog*

I know that every dog is different and not all dogs even in the same breed have the same traits. I've taught my both my cocker spaniel & basset hounds to round the chickens up.:teehee:

I would possibly be able to bring said puppy to work with me a few days a week to socialize it a bit more.


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## pancho

Have you ever worked with large aggressive dogs before?


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## mamahen

Rotties, American bulldogs and German shepherds.


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## Our Little Farm

Karakachan.  

The best dog I have ever had.


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## thaiblue12

Anatolian or Anatolian-Pyrenees mix if you have livestock aside from chickens. My boys are the mix, they blow out their coats in the Spring. One is med haired the other long and harder to keep off my clothes  Thankfully one did not mind when a young girl and her mom came to look at goats, her squealing, running up to hug him. Mom did not try to stop her or ask if he was friendly....... Sigh. They do a good job and I am happy with that mix. oh and happily neither drool, big plus to me.


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## pancho

mamahen said:


> Rotties, American bulldogs and German shepherds.


Good. Glad to hear that.
You will be able to handle any of the breeds.


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## Kits&Kids

from what ive read the boerbols can be kinda agressive with people.just somthing to think about.


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## citxmech

Kits&Kids said:


> from what ive read the boerbols can be kinda agressive with people.just somthing to think about.


My Kangal/Boerboel cross is an absolute sweetheart. Based upon her temperament, as well as the other pure-bred Boerboels I've interacted with (4 or 5 at this point) I haven't see anything in any of them that has concerned me in terms of human or dog aggression. Not that poor handling couldn't make a dangerous dog out of one, but that's true of any dog. 

Having said that they are more on the dominant/pushy side - and they are quite large and strong, so these are not first-time dog owner animals. I have found that a positive, assertive, and consistent approach is best, but the key is really early and dedicated socialization. 

A bigger issue with Boerboels is that they are so family/pack oriented that they really hate being alone for any length of time and they can get quite stressed-out if they are. This is not the kind of dog you want to leave kenneled or crated for 9hrs/day 5 days/wk, and like any guardian dog - a regular exercise program is especially important to ensure a happier, less problematic animal.


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## yarrow

For our situation (we have a nubian goat farm, deep in the Ozarks).. we have BOTH LGDs (a pair of pyrs) AND an American Bulldog... The LGD's are with the goat herd 24/7 .. they also protect a small flock of sheep and an a rather large assortment of poultry (which free range and are NOT locked up at night... we rarely loose any birds to predators..Not a single hawk loss in the last 5 years)... The American Bulldog is wonderful with the poultry, gentle with the bottle baby goats (ALWAYS supervised however.. unlike the LGDs who I never feel the need to keep a bit of an eye on.. the American Bulldog has quite a bit of prey drive, so we just make sure accidents, don't have the chance to happen).. The AB is wonderful with family & friends... a bit stand-offish with strangers (until she gets to know them) a WONDERFUL house watchdog.. no one comes into the drive without us knowing.. she will stand her ground and allow no one into the yard, until she is told it's okay
.. the LGDs are sweet & gentle with our family.. but want NOTHING to do with outsiders.. not aggressive, but they have NO SENSE of HUMOR when it comes to the safety of the herd.... but they will move the herd out and away from guests..or move them quickly back to the barn, if there is a predator threat...
I never MIX the American Bulldog (we also have an older boxer that hangs out with the AB).. and the LGDs.. The AB & Boxer are NEVER allowed anywhere near the adult doe herd...it would be a blood bath.. the Pyrs will NOT TOLERATE other dogs near the goats... that said.. we have NO fighting between the two groups (I have simple cattle panels up to keep the American Bulldog & Boxer OUT of the barn lot/pasture..Each two-some knows who is suppose to stay where.. however if they were to get into the barn lot/pasture.. I have no doubt that the LGDs would kill them).. It's quite a few dogs.. but for our needs, it works well.

Bob Barker








Lola








Moon (4 months old)








Moon & Lily catching some zzzzzs









susie, mo ozarks


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## Grazer

mamahen said:


> *Central Asian Shepherd* (I've had a hard time keeping 2 similar breeds apart, it seems some call these dogs CAO OR CAS, but I thought those were 2 seperate breeds?)



Actually it is the same breed but they are known under many different names (like Koochie dog, Alabai, CAO etc).
Ovcharka is a Russian word for Shepherd.
I've never had one myself, but I've met several and from what the owners have told me they could fit your bill perfectly.
Although some lines might be a little more human aggressive than others.

But same goes for Boerboels to be honest; all the Boerboels I've met were used as family guard dogs and they were very convincing in their role lol

So a LGD is always a safer choice because of their low prey drive, and breeds like Anatolian Shepherd/Kangal, CAO, Spanish Mastiff etc all are medium haired LGD's.


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## BobbyB

This is my male Black Mouth Cur, Blade





























he roams the place, love the kids, isn't aggressive to any other animals or other dogs here. I do use him for hog hunting , so he kind of has a hard time understanding hogs in a pen really dont need to be bayed, but a pup could be broke from that instead of trained for it.


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## Pops2

Grazer said:


> Actually it is the same breed but they are known under many different names (like Koochie dog, Alabai, CAO etc).
> Ovcharka is a Russian word for Shepherd.
> I've never had one myself, but I've met several and from what the owners have told me they could fit your bill perfectly.
> *Although some lines might be a little more human aggressive than others*.


the CAO & CAS are breeds being created by europeans & americans from asian breeds of molosser, the same way they created the anatolian from turkish LGDs & mongrels. attempts to suborn landrace breeds are just examples of euro & american bigoted arrogance ( mostly from showies & which i find REALLY offensive). it would be like the asians saying the boxer, bourdeaux, alano & bullmastiff are all varieties within one breed.
i don't speak russian yet, so can't tell you what the word means.
yes some of the breeds used to make CAO & CAS are very man aggressive.


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## Pops2

Mamahen
what are your main threats? how versatile do you want?


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## Grazer

Pops2 said:


> the CAO & CAS are breeds being created by europeans & americans from asian breeds of molosser, the same way they created the anatolian from turkish LGDs & mongrels. attempts to suborn landrace breeds are just examples of euro & american bigoted arrogance ( mostly from showies & which i find REALLY offensive). it would be like the asians saying the boxer, bourdeaux, alano & bullmastiff are all varieties within one breed.
> i don't speak russian yet, so can't tell you what the word means.
> yes some of the breeds used to make CAO & CAS are very man aggressive.


Firstly and fore mostly, I don't understand why you are telling me that since I'm neither Russian or a CAO breeder.
I just told OP what it says in CAO standard according to FCI.

The FCI considers all those other types I named as a subtype of a CAO and thus does not recognizes them.
Those are the facts.
I do not care about politics nor do I care to discuss it on here. 

If you want to know what Ovcharka means, you can use google translator or better yet ask someone who's Russian and I'm sure they can explain it to you.

Anyway, according to many, some of the best CAO of all subtypes kennels are found in Russia.
Also, Dogue the Bordeaux, the Bullmastiff and Boxers are all recognized breeds that have been bred as purebred dogs for decades.
Which is not something I can say about the aboriginal CAO's, as according to researchers there has been a lot of crossbreeding going on in the Central Asia.
Besides, in Japan they did take best Western bred mastiffs and crossed them with their local dogs in order to create the Tosa Inu. Which has become a recognized breed.

Some CAO's are very man aggressive indeed, but unfortunately they are now mostly used as fighting dogs throughout the whole former Soviet Union.


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## Pops2

Grazer said:


> Firstly and fore mostly, I don't understand why you are telling me that since I'm neither Russian or a CAO breeder.
> I just told OP what it says in CAO standard according to FCI.
> 
> The FCI considers all those other types I named as a subtype of a CAO and thus does not recognizes them.
> Those are the facts.
> I do not care about politics nor do I care to discuss it on here.


 regardless of your source, you chose to pass untruthful information. i chose to correct it.



Grazer said:


> If you want to know what Ovcharka means, you can use google translator or better yet ask someone who's Russian and I'm sure they can explain it to you.
> 
> Anyway, according to many, some of the best CAO of all subtypes kennels are found in Russia.


 or i'll just ask one of my coworkers.



Grazer said:


> Also, Dogue the Bordeaux, the Bullmastiff and Boxers are all recognized breeds that have been bred as purebred dogs for decades.
> Which is not something I can say about the aboriginal CAO's, as according to researchers there has been a lot of crossbreeding going on in the Central Asia.


 the point of the analogy is that the varios molossers of central asia are as differrent as those 4 european breeds. lumping them together is both arrogant & ignorant on the part of the show oriented clubs & registries of europe & americas. actually because of the tribalism & it's associated pride & bigotry AND the very isolated lifestyle of MOST people in central asia there is very little crossbreeding. this is something the showies could have found out easily if they really cared about preserving these landrace breeds. instead, in order to create yet another source of ribbons for their egos, they lump all these breeds together in direct contradiction of the very people they get the dogs from. because apparently the russians, brits & americans know the turk, uzbek, tajik, pashtun & tibetan dogs better than the people who developed them.


Grazer said:


> Besides, in Japan they did take best Western bred mastiffs and crossed them with their local dogs in order to create the Tosa Inu. Which has become a recognized breed.


 i'm not sure what this has to do w/ the CAO & CAS other than the fact those breeds are being created by europeans & americans from asian stock. but then MOST show dogs & many working breeds originated from crossbreeding.



Grazer said:


> Some CAO's are very man aggressive indeed, but unfortunately they are now mostly used as fighting dogs throughout the whole former Soviet Union.


they have always been used for fighting dogs against each other, other animals & even people. nothing new about it.


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## Grazer

If it's truthful to FCI, then it's truthful to me too.
Don't get me wrong, I've never cared about pedigree's or dog shows. In fact I think dog shows have ruined many working breeds.
But at the same time FCI is the one who recognizes purebred dogs, so their opinion matters to me.
I'm just speaking for myself here.

As for the word ovcharka, as I'm said I'm not Russian, but if you ask your Russian friends I'm pretty sure they'll tell you that the word simply means shepherd or shepherd's dog, depends the spelling and ovcharka is used as a suffix in the names of many LGD/herding breeds, including those that are not native to Russia.
But you don't have to believe me of course, you can find out yourself.

I'm not an expert, but from what I've been told and read, I think that both the modern CO and the modern CAO are descending from certain aboriginal dogs in Caucasus mountains and Central Asia and have been crossbred with Western mastiffs at one point in time.
So that's why the ones on dog shows look a little different.
But the breeds are stable now.
I do think that Koochie dog, Gampr, Nagazi, Alabai etc get mixed. Because although some people in say Turkmenistan or other Central Asian countries may live remote, they at the same have contact with each other all the time because of economy trade etc.
It's very difficult to live completely remote nowadays.
Probably more so now than hundreds of years ago.
Which reminds me of that one time when I was watching a documentary about the canaan dog and how difficult it was to find a purebred one, even in the most remote areas.
And that's when breeding with a pedigree is useful.
Not bulletproof of course, as some people will mess with pedigree's anyway. But a good foundation non the less.

If people from Central Asian countries lobby hard enough and worked on creating a separate standard for their native breeds, I think that over time they can get their subtype recognized as a separate breed.
Just look for instance at the mini bull terrier or the English Cocker Spaniel and the American Cocker Spaniel being recognized as a separate breed etc.
So that was the point I tried to make with the Tosa.

Well I was under the impression that they've been used as fighting dogs rather than LGD's more frequently in the last 30 years or so.
The CAO from the fighting lines don't make good LGD's because of their huge dog aggression. As LGD's are supposed to work in teams.
But sadly (to me at least) because of industrialization LGD's are not needed as much as they used to be needed and that's why the CAO has been used as a fighting dog more so now than in the past.


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## Rock

However I am 100% bias as I spend a huge part of everyday with this breed.:stars:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=432037


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## Pops2

Grazer said:


> If it's truthful to FCI, then it's truthful to me too.
> Don't get me wrong, I've never cared about pedigree's or dog shows. In fact I think dog shows have ruined many working breeds.
> But at the same time FCI is the one who recognizes purebred dogs, so their opinion matters to me.
> I'm just speaking for myself here.


that is the root problem here. the FCI at it's core is still a show fancy organization. the history of all show registries has been a dramatic lack of honesty & integrity at many levels. taking their word is why people think irish wolfhounds are ancient wolf killers. yeah, pay no attention to the well documented history that shows they were invented in the 19th century from deerhounds & danes.



Grazer said:


> As for the word ovcharka, as I'm said I'm not Russian, but if you ask your Russian friends I'm pretty sure they'll tell you that the word simply means shepherd or shepherd's dog, depends the spelling and ovcharka is used as a suffix in the names of many LGD/herding breeds, including those that are not native to Russia.
> But you don't have to believe me of course, you can find out yourself.


 no need i 've seen both herders & molossers called ovtchartka so i'm pretty sure you're right.



Grazer said:


> I'm not an expert, but from what I've been told and read, I think that both the modern CO and the modern CAO are descending from certain aboriginal dogs in Caucasus mountains and Central Asia and have been crossbred with Western mastiffs at one point in time.
> So that's why the ones on dog shows look a little different.
> But the breeds are stable now.


 actually I still see a lot of variation in type for both. i think it would be in the best interest of both breeds to leave a lot of leeway in type. i don't even mind the breeds being created. what i mind is the wiilful & dishonest attempt to destroy landrace breeds in the process.



Grazer said:


> I do think that Koochie dog, Gampr, Nagazi, Alabai etc get mixed. Because although some people in say Turkmenistan or other Central Asian countries may live remote, they at the same have contact with each other all the time because of economy trade etc.


you can think that all you want, but you're still wrong. in Afghanistan there are actually two breeds that outsiders are calling sage koochee. koochee means nomad & their "tiger" dogs are leggy & lean to make the long runs from summer pastures in the north to winter pastures in the south. they don't wait on dogs that don't keep up this keeps the type set for an endurance build.
the settled tajiks & pathans both have variants of the heavy lion type. the settled hazaras also keep tigers. most people living in the region never leave the valley they are born in. koochees are the primary vehicle of trade for many villages.


Grazer said:


> It's very difficult to live completely remote nowadays.


 no it's not. i have relatives in their 30s & 40s that have NEVER left the hick TX towns they were born in. now take away the cars of 90% of the population & get rid of the roads & that is what most of central asia is like. 



Grazer said:


> Not bulletproof of course, as some people will mess with pedigree's anyway. But a good foundation non the less.


 yeah, pedigree is only as good as the breeder's integrity.



Grazer said:


> If people from Central Asian countries lobby hard enough and worked on creating a separate standard for their native breeds, I think that over time they can get their subtype recognized as a separate breed.


 my point is they shouldn't have to lobby anyone. saying that only reinforces the assinine arrogant bigotry of the western registries. the jack russell was just working bred fox terriers but the western registries didn't blink at making them a seperate breed. 



Grazer said:


> Well I was under the impression that they've been used as fighting dogs rather than LGD's more frequently in the last 30 years or so.


 nope, been fighting them for centuries. they aren't really LGDs in the sense of the pyr & the akhbash. they tend to guard everything stock included.



Grazer said:


> The CAO from the fighting lines don't make good LGD's because of their huge dog aggression. As LGD's are supposed to work in teams.
> But sadly (to me at least) because of industrialization LGD's are not needed as much as they used to be needed and that's why the CAO has been used as a fighting dog more so now than in the past.


 in the stans the same dog that is guarding the home or herds on wednesday may be fighting on thursday or saturday ( friday is the Muslim sabbath, most places the weekend is thursday & friday a few are friday & saturday).
industrialization on a western scale is still mostly unknown there. the old soviet stans mores so than Afghanistan but still not like the west or far east.


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## Pops2

mamahen
what are your primary threats? how versatile do you want the dog to be? you might do well to consider a big carnathon line black mouth cur like BobbyB.


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## Grazer

Pops from what I could read, you seem to think that you and people who think like you are the only ones that are right and that's it. 
Well to me almost everything you just wrote is rubbish.

And also, you don't know me, don't know where I'm from or where I've lived, so don't presume that you know how things roll in that part of the world and I don't.

Anyway, since nothing you say will make me think differently regarding the subject and I'm sure the same goes for you....I will just agree to disagree with you. 


@ Rock, your American Bulldogs are really good looking and seem to have an excellent temperament. I hope all your puppies will find the right homes.

And I hope mamahen will find the right dog for his situation.


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## pancho

Some people will pick their favorite breed and research them. They will pick out what they like and reject the rest. The trick is knowing what to keep and what to reject.
Sometimes people pick the wrong things for various reasons.
It doesn't change the real history, just their view of it.
The deeper the research the more likely a person will pick the correct things to keep.
If a person disagrees with another it is simple to do more research and prove that person wrong.
Sometimes your research does not prove you are right. Then the person has a choice. They can adjust their ideas or choose to stay with the wrong ideas.
Sometimes people will choose the wrong thing to do.


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## Wolf Flower

Grazer said:


> If it's truthful to FCI, then it's truthful to me too.


There's your problem. Dog registries are notorious for revisionist history and are susceptible to lobbying by special interest groups who have their own agenda. Take for example the Anatolian Shepherd. Nothing against the breed, but it is NOT a Turkish breed as has been written--they are a mixed breed of Turkish origin, a sort of generic dog of unknown parentage, with some guardian and some pariah dog influence. But a few folks with a lot of money, power and sway insisted that their version was the one true flock guardian of Turkey. Now, everyone in Turkey knows the difference between the Akbash, the Kangal, and the pariah dog, but this mix dubbed the "Anatolian Shepherd" was the one that got AKC recognition.


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## Rock

My friend is a park Ranger (the dog on right is also named Ranger, go figure) 
She also sends them to cow camp for a month each year.


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## Grazer

Wolf Flower said:


> There's your problem. Dog registries are notorious for revisionist history and are susceptible to lobbying by special interest groups who have their own agenda. Take for example the Anatolian Shepherd. Nothing against the breed, but it is NOT a Turkish breed as has been written--they are a mixed breed of Turkish origin, a sort of generic dog of unknown parentage, with some guardian and some pariah dog influence. But a few folks with a lot of money, power and sway insisted that their version was the one true flock guardian of Turkey. Now, everyone in Turkey knows the difference between the Akbash, the Kangal, and the pariah dog, but this mix dubbed the "Anatolian Shepherd" was the one that got AKC recognition.



Excuse me, my problem? lol
No it's not my problem as I'm not a breeder nor do I care about pedigree's.
Therefor I do not have a problem and I can chose to respect what FCI says, as you can chose to not respect it.
You don't see me trying to change your opinion so why are you, Pops and Pancho so bent over to change mine?

Live and let live.
Cause nothing you guys say will change my opinion simply for the fact that what you perceive as true isn't true to me.

I know everything about the Anatolian Shepherd's history and CAO's history and what you guys are blabbing about is old news to me.
Also, some of the things Pops said are just plain lies based on politics.
But anyway, none of it change how FCI is going to view these dogs.
If you don't like it, complain to someone who cares. Maybe FCI does, cause I sure as hell do not.

Btw, if any of you 3 knew anything about LGD's from real life experiences and not just from reading rubbish all over the internet, you'd know that if youlive in high predator country, you need more than 2 dogs.
And if you want LGD's to work as a team you can't have dogs from fighting lines.
Also...almost all LGD breeds have been used to guard everything and quite a few breeds were even military dogs.
So CAO's background is not that different from other LGD's.

But don't take my word for it, ask the breeders and talk to them. Meet their dogs in real life, like I did.


This thread was supposed to help mamahen find the suitable breed for his situation and it got hijacked.
So I'm done participating in it.

You have a good day folks.


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## Wolf Flower

Grazer said:


> Btw, if any of you 3 knew anything about LGD's from real life experiences and not just from reading rubbish all over the internet, you'd know that if youlive in high predator country, you need more than 2 dogs.
> And if you want LGD's to work as a team you can't have dogs from fighting lines.


Um... I never said anything about LGDs other than the one post about Anatolians, and the fact that dog registries are prone to error. You might have me mixed up with someone else. I was simply pointing out that that the FCI, AKC, UKC, etc are merely dog registries and do not always get their facts straight, because the people that give them information often have an agenda. It is wise to do your research and not rely only on what a registry has to say--I just take it all with a grain of salt until I talk personally to those who have experience with the breed.

To the OP: I have heard that Black Mouth Curs and English Shepherds are good all-round farm dogs that will both guard your home and act as an LGD.


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## pancho

Grazer said:


> Excuse me, my problem? lol
> No it's not my problem as I'm not a breeder nor do I care about pedigree's.
> Therefor I do not have a problem and I can chose to respect what FCI says, as you can chose to not respect it.
> You don't see me trying to change your opinion so why are you, Pops and Pancho so bent over to change mine?
> 
> Live and let live.
> Cause nothing you guys say will change my opinion simply for the fact that what you perceive as true isn't true to me.
> 
> I know everything about the Anatolian Shepherd's history and CAO's history and what you guys are blabbing about is old news to me.
> Also, some of the things Pops said are just plain lies based on politics.
> But anyway, none of it change how FCI is going to view these dogs.
> If you don't like it, complain to someone who cares. Maybe FCI does, cause I sure as hell do not.
> 
> Btw, if any of you 3 knew anything about LGD's from real life experiences and not just from reading rubbish all over the internet, you'd know that if youlive in high predator country, you need more than 2 dogs.
> And if you want LGD's to work as a team you can't have dogs from fighting lines.
> Also...almost all LGD breeds have been used to guard everything and quite a few breeds were even military dogs.
> So CAO's background is not that different from other LGD's.
> 
> But don't take my word for it, ask the breeders and talk to them. Meet their dogs in real life, like I did.
> 
> 
> This thread was supposed to help mamahen find the suitable breed for his situation and it got hijacked.
> So I'm done participating in it.
> 
> You have a good day folks.


Could you show me where I tried to change your mind?
I don't remember mentioning any names.

You know everything about their history?
I have never met a person that knew everything about any subject before.


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## Pops2

Grazer said:


> Excuse me, my problem? lol
> No it's not my problem as I'm not a breeder nor do I care about pedigree's.
> Therefor I do not have a problem and I can chose to respect what FCI says, as you can chose to not respect it.
> You don't see me trying to change your opinion so why are you, Pops and Pancho so bent over to change mine?
> 
> Live and let live.
> Cause nothing you guys say will change my opinion simply for the fact that what you perceive as true isn't true to me.


 because your opinion led to making false statements that are grounded in western bigotry. taking the FCI's word for it over the people in those countries is like listening to an eskimo over a bedouin on the subject of survival in the negev. 



Grazer said:


> I know everything about the Anatolian Shepherd's history and CAO's history and what you guys are blabbing about is old news to me.
> Also, some of the things Pops said are just plain lies based on politics.


what did i mix up the lion & tiger types? it's possible since they use the dari word sheer for both lion & tiger. other than that, name one factual falsehood.


Grazer said:


> But anyway, none of it change how FCI is going to view these dogs.
> If you don't like it, complain to someone who cares. Maybe FCI does, cause I sure as hell do not.


 that is because FCI (like other show focused registries) only cares about the bottom line $$$$$$. if that means ignoring truth & knuckling under to western bigotry, thats okay as long as the money keeps coming in.



Grazer said:


> Btw, if any of you 3 knew anything about LGD's from real life experiences and not just from reading rubbish all over the internet, you'd know that if youlive in high predator country, *you need more than 2 dogs*.


 where has any of us disputed that. even better i can gladly link you to threads where i myself have put forth those exact words & supported others of like mind.


Grazer said:


> And if you want LGD's to work as a team you can't have dogs from fighting lines.


 you're making a false assumption that there really is such a thing as "fighting" lines in the small villages. only in the large cities (like kabul, kandahar, samarkand & tashkent) are they kept strictly for fighting. in the villages a herder takes his best dog to the next village & matches it. when it's over he takes it home to the pack it lives w/. they don't match them against the dogs they team up w/ to guard the flock. since LGDs are expected to protect against stray & feral dogs (to include killing them) there is nothing incongruous in matching them against strange dogs.


Grazer said:


> Also...almost all LGD breeds have been used to guard everything and quite a few breeds were even military dogs.
> So CAO's background is not that different from other LGD's.


 again no one is disputing this.



Grazer said:


> But don't take my word for it, ask the breeders and talk to them. Meet their dogs in real life, like I did.


 which breeders the ones in europe, north america or asia?



Grazer said:


> And also, you don't know me, don't know where I'm from or where I've lived, so don't presume that you know how things roll in that part of the world and I don't.


 right back at you
i got one last question for you
tuh pahkto ka daree jebay hubaray kawalieshay? (sorry, i'm too computer stupid to write from right to left or to put it in the propper script)


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## Farmer2B

Pops2 and Grazer, your arguement is not helping mamahen find her dog.


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## Ross

No its not is it.


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## Pops2

Farmer2B said:


> Pops2 and Grazer, your arguement is not helping mamahen find her dog.


true that. sorry mamahen.
again unless you have mt lion or wolves, a big carnathon line BMC would just fit the bill being territorial toward stray dogs, aggressive toward predators & able to herd larger stock AND able to hunt down & thin out predator populations where needed. if you already have other dogs a good cur should boost their aggression & confidence. the right catahoula would be the same but i've seen them be more DA w/ their pack mates than the BMCs. just don't try to have the dog flying solo if you have coyotes, lion or wolves.


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## thaiblue12

Rock said:


> My friend is a park Ranger (the dog on right is also named Ranger, go figure)
> She also sends them to cow camp for a month each year.


That picture does not say "farm" to me, it says working dogs, possible chicken killers. 

In mamahen's post she states *(and watch out for) the stock* not harass, herd or otherwise annoy, chew on. 

I much prefer this type, waiting for me to give him afterbirth once the doe in the barn is done kidding. Low prey drive, good with people as long as they do not make the goat kids cry, keeps coyotes away, keeps people in their cars when they come here until I tell him it is ok, then he stands between the goats and them. 

He is an Anatolian Great Pyr mix, weighs 125 lbs. He never licks or puts his mouth on people or livestock as he has been trained not to. Kids run around him, bounce off of him and he does nothing as he is suppose to he is just there to keep them safe. They snort or the guineas scream and he checks that out asap. 
He is a productive member of my farm and family. 

So in my personal experience mamahen I like this mix and they both have worked out well for me except one hates my neighbor's dog for good reason, he bites people! So he has to stay with the bucks or else he go nuts if he hears that PITA bark or fence run and wants to correct him, or tear out his throat idk he bites me one more time I will find out


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## AngieM2

Ladies and Gentlemen 

This is just a reminder that the Homesteading Today main rule is "Be Nice".

There are several posts on this thread that fall short of that by a lot. Please revise your manner of posting.

Please remember this is for Neighborly help and FRIENDLY advice.

Unfriendly name calling and other such posts will have to be deleted if they keep up.

Thanks everyone.
Angie
moderator

I


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## Rock

thaiblue12 said:


> That picture does not say "farm" to me, it says working dogs, possible chicken killers.
> 
> In mamahen's post she states *(and watch out for) the stock* not harass, herd or otherwise annoy, chew on.


Well you making assumptions and I'll just disagree and leave it., That is actually in a contest and if they touch the hog they are DQ'ed. _(there is thousands of prize dollars involved)_ That however is not a 2 way street, notice the kevlar vests. She has had a dog ripped open by a hog , they saved him but he lost a testicle. Some farms have hogs & cattle, not just chickens and goats.
She has also camped all over the U.P. and say he is very good at keeping bears away. They are not my breed of choice, but they are very able dogs.
Any dog can kill chickens _(even mine that ya see the baby chick sit on his feed dish)_ or any other livestock if they are not trained. You said yourself that yours has been trained not to lick or mouth anything!
A guard dog that is locked away is useless, when needed.


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## mamahen

:hijacked:

Sorry for not posting everyone - if it's not one thing it's another. My male basset has a partial colon obstruction from eating raw beef bones this weekend. I've been running him to vets all weekend (including the after-hours ER vet) :shocked: I'm hoping he's on the upswing after this latest round of treatment.

What predators? Lots of coyotes, running in small packs. Lots of black bear. And raccoons, red fox, possums, skunks and assorted other small varmints. Usually no problem dogs. The neighbor dogs come on the property, but usually do not chase the animals (yet). The biggest problem so far this year is the raccoons and skunks, the coyotes are definitely getting bolder and closer. We live trap the ***** and give them to a young trapper that is earning money.

*thaiblue12* - your boy is very handsome!! 

*Pops2* - When I was younger I looked seriously into BMC. They seemed like a good all around dog. I guess I forgot:teehee:



I will post more later - time for another potty break for my boy!


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## Grazer

Farmer2B said:


> Pops2 and Grazer, your arguement is not helping mamahen find her dog.



Farmer, if you go back and read all posts you'll see that all I did was telling mamahen about the official CAO standard and what to expect from a CAO personality.
That's when Pops, Pancho and to a degree Wolf Flower started arguing with me about the politics behind FCI and the CAO & Anatolian Shepherd history.
As if I was interested in arguing.
I tried to at first debate politely, but when that didn't work I tried to agree to disagree and obviously that didn't work either.
So I decided to ignore their posts as I just don't know what their problem is.
They should have simply left my post alone, as I only tried to tell mamahen official facts and nothing else. Especially nothing that has to do with politics.


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## pancho

Grazer said:


> Farmer, if you go back and read all posts you'll see that all I did was telling mamahen about the official CAO standard and what to expect from a CAO personality.
> That's when Pops, Pancho and to a degree Wolf Flower started arguing with me about the politics behind FCI and the CAO & Anatolian Shepherd history.
> As if I was interested in arguing.
> I tried to at first debate politely, but when that didn't work I tried to agree to disagree and obviously that didn't work either.
> So I decided to ignore their posts as I just don't know what their problem is.
> They should have simply left my post alone, as I only tried to tell mamahen official facts and nothing else. Especially nothing that has to do with politics.


Please go back and read my post again. I didn't pick any side. I stated people will research their favorite breed and pick and choose what to believe.
I didn't say you were right or wrong.
I didn't say Pops was right or wrong.


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## wolffeathers

mamahen said:


> I've posted before about wanting an all-around farm dog. One that will enjoy being with the family, be safe (and watch out for) the stock, patrol/guard the property but NOT be too human aggressive (unless provoked). We have a little over 50 acres, woods & field.
> 
> My ideal dog would be short to medium haired (nothing too shaggy, but blowing a coat twice a year is ok), on the larger side (over 100 lbs would be great, but slightly smaller is ok).
> 
> Is there such a dog? I mean, I know there is but which breed? I like to research breeds completely before I start a hard search.


Our dog that fits your bill the most is our Great Pyr/Komondor, with the exception of his long hair coat.

He plays fetch, snuggles, patrols, and chases unknown animals from the property. He barks and mock charges the fence when strangers appear, but once any member of the family lets that person in the fence. He settles down and checks them out. He is fairly obediant for an LGD. He sits, lays, "gets out of the kitchen", "goes to bed", comes, fetches, and "puts the goats away". 

He is the perfect balance of pet, LGD, and surprisingly? Farm dog.  When we had Boer goats they would get out of the pasture, Goose knows that the goats belong in the pasture and will herd them(but never making contact with them) until they are back in the pasture. Once they are back through the fence, he's their best friend again. 

He is able to determine our two house dogs(beagle mix and an aussieXst.bernard) from strange dogs. When we had barn cats, he would snuggle with them in the yard; but heaven help the stray cat that wondered in on it's own whim.


His first priority is me and the family, then the stock, then the yard. He will run strange animals off the property, help me herd goats or horses back through a goat, then just as quickly settle down and walk through a flock of hungry birds or herd of goats, then play with the house dogs and lay calmly about the house the rest of the time.

He's sitting beside my bed, with his head resting looking at me as I type this now. (We originally got him to be a strictly outdoor goat dog, he had other ideas and wanted to be with the family; I like his idea better and it's really worked out in the end.  )


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## earthkitty

> He is an Anatolian Great Pyr mix, weighs 125 lbs. He never licks or puts his mouth on people or livestock as he has been trained not to. Kids run around him, bounce off of him and he does nothing as he is suppose to he is just there to keep them safe. They snort or the guineas scream and he checks that out asap.
> He is a productive member of my farm and family.





OH, he is so pretty!! And I am with you on that photo. Don't like it one bit, the whole idea seems "sporting" simply to entertain the humans.


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## Wolf Flower

Grazer said:


> Farmer, if you go back and read all posts you'll see that all I did was telling mamahen about the official CAO standard and what to expect from a CAO personality.
> That's when Pops, Pancho and to a degree Wolf Flower started arguing with me about the politics behind FCI and the CAO & Anatolian Shepherd history.


Again: I was not arguing with you. All I'm saying is: When researching breeds, it's a good idea to talk to people who have hands-on knowledge and experience, and not just the registry's blurb, as registries have at best incomplete information.

Do you actually disagree with this?


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## siberian

I think Grazer has done a temendous amount of research, as well as a decent amount of time owning and working with some nofthese dogs. The englishb language may have hindered some, but overall it seems like a couple of you are insistant upon pushing the point for whatever reason. Grazer, I admire your respectfullness and knowledge. Thank you


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## Pops2

mamahen said:


> :hijacked:
> 
> Sorry for not posting everyone - if it's not one thing it's another. My male basset has a partial colon obstruction from eating raw beef bones this weekend. I've been running him to vets all weekend (including the after-hours ER vet) :shocked: I'm hoping he's on the upswing after this latest round of treatment.


 sorry for the hijack.
i hope everything turns out well. 



mamahen said:


> :What predators? Lots of coyotes, running in small packs. Lots of black bear. And raccoons, red fox, possums, skunks and assorted other small varmints. Usually no problem dogs. The neighbor dogs come on the property, but usually do not chase the animals (yet). The biggest problem so far this year is the raccoons and skunks, the coyotes are definitely getting bolder and closer. We live trap the ***** and give them to a young trapper that is earning money.


a BMC is highly trainable & a common choice for coyote decoy dogs. properly raised & started they can deal w/ or help deal w/ all of those threats. AND herd & help protect the homestead from two legged vermin.


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## Farmer2B

I would find someone who has the dog you want and go to the pound. Pick a nice puppy you both agree on that is very young and take advantage of hybrid vigor + low cost.

However know I little on the subject on LGDs, please someone correct me if this is a bad idea.


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## Pops2

Farmer2B said:


> I would find someone who has the dog you want and go to the pound. Pick a nice puppy you both agree on that is very young and take advantage of hybrid vigor + low cost.
> 
> However know I little on the subject on LGDs, please someone correct me if this is a bad idea.


pound puppy breed ID is often FAR off the mark & that directly affects temperament & personality predictability. curs are not true LGDs & will need training to do it well. they won't really bond w/ the stock but it will be covered by a strong territorial umbrella. 
LGDs also have very predictable temperaments IF PUREBRED. mixed bred & crossed bred can run the whole range of combinations of normal breed personality traits not to mention anamolous traits. hence the urinating contest stemming from pointing out the CAO/CAS being RECENTLY/ONGOING mixed breeding in origin.
a pound puppy is a crap shoot on temperament/personality. not that an experienced trainer WILLING to put in the effort couldn't be succesful, but going w/ a known quantity improves the chances & quality of success.
in fact i enjoy trying to hunt nontraditional breeds from the pound because the success is more satisfying.


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## pancho

Much of the reason behing different breeds of dogs was to develope a dog for a certain job. Through selective breeding breeds were developed for special jobs. They are far more likely to do the job than another breed developed for something different.
Taking a breed developed for a special job and crossing it to another breed will result with a dog with less ability to do the job. It is very hard to predict what genes a pup will recieve from which parent and which ones will dominate.
A cross bred may do the job and it may not. A pure breed may do the job and may not. It is all a gamble. Your chances of success can be improved by making the right choice.


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## BarbadosSheep

Farmer2B said:


> I would find someone who has the dog you want and go to the pound. Pick a nice puppy you both agree on that is very young and take advantage of hybrid vigor + low cost.
> 
> However know I little on the subject on LGDs, please someone correct me if this is a bad idea.


sorry, yes it's a bad idea. Like others have said, breeds of working dogs have been developed generation or in some case, thousands of years to do a specific job. Livestock guardian dogs are a good example of this. They have been bred to be very protective of the stock they guard. They have also been bred to have a low prey drive. It's still a gamble with any pup if it will turn out to be a good guardian dog but the chances improve greatly if that dog is a livestock guardian breed. Also "hybrid vigor" really is not all it's cracked up to be, unless you talking about street dogs who have generations of "only the strong survive" behind them. Otherwise, with a cross of two pure bred dogs you still inherit all of the health problems that are common to both of those breeds.


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## Naderhood

The best farm dog in my experience is a Bouvier (http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/bouvierdesflandres.htm)

You can cut the coats short to keep down on maintenance. They're naturally protective but sociable as well. Great guard dogs that dont need any training to guard a farm as their instincts are strong. They have an extremely high pain tolerance so they are great with cattle, kids, or any other rambunctious animal. A big male will be about 90lbs can be well over 100.


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## Rock

earthkitty said:


> OH, he is so pretty!! And I am with you on that photo. Don't like it one bit, the whole idea seems "sporting" simply to entertain the humans.


Everyone gets an opinion I reckon that 1 is yours!


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## BarbadosSheep

Naderhood said:


> Bouvier's are the best farm dogs in my experience.
> 
> http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/bouvierdesflandres.htm
> 
> You can cut the coats short so there is less maintenance on them. EXCELLENT farm dogs!


I had bouvier years ago. She was an awesome dog....right up to point when she killed several of my best goats. They are herding dogs, not livestock guardian dogs.


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## Naderhood

A herding dog is a livestock guarding dog. When they arent herding, their job is to watch over the animals. You must have had a poorly trained dog. They arent a dog you can leave out with the animals permanently like an AnatolianShep, but they are awesome farm dogs nonetheless.


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