# Electric fence~ why is it clicking?



## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I've installed a Parmak SE4 with 4 ground rods~ the ground rods are also attached to the woven wire fence the electric wires are run in front of. The charger is in my garage~ there is about 75Ft of run out cable to the fence and the first of the ground rods (all is the 40K insulated underground cable) Under gates is the 40K insulated underground cable. There is one lightening diverter installed just where the lead out wires reach the fence, and grounded to the first grounding rod. I've not finished the fence but have two pastures done. It's doing stuff I don't understand~ think you can help me out?

1. When I went under the first gate I only ran the hot wire under it. Later we discovered that if you touched the woven wire fence that was not directly attached to the ground that ran back to the charger on the other side of that gate you would get a small shock. Not like the fence line itself, but a small pulsing shock. We ran another cable under the gate and connected that section of woven wire fence to the section that was attached to the grounds that ran back to the charger and the shocking stopped. Any idea WHY it was doing that? The woven wire fence was not attached to the charger in any way...but it would give you a pulse if you touched it until we attached it to the wire running back to the charger.

2. The charger usually reads 18.9 to 19.9 So this morning when I saw it reading 0.0 I knew I had a ground short. Took me a while to find it but I finally did and I fixed it. The charger then went back to normal readings. BUT while looking for the ground fault I discovered that if I was very quiet I could HEAR the top line of the fence clicking...which eventually led me to where the top line was touching the woven wire fence. After making this discovery I noticed that my lightening diverter is clicking. I never noticed it before~ and the parmak is still reading 18.9 to 19.9 so has the lightening diverter always clicked and I didn't notice before or is this new....and is it SUPPOSED to click?

3. There is one spot on the fence where I went around a tree. I ran the wire through some tube insulation I bought at Tractor supply. The tube insulation is touching the tree~ but the wire is not because it's inside the insulation. Today I noticed that there are ants on that tree....and everywhere the tube insulation is touching the tree there are a LOT of dead ants piled up. Is the electric somehow killing the ants through the tube insulation? It looks like thats what has to be happening....but WHY? And do I need to be concerned about it?

Thanks for any help
I'm still learning!


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

What kind of tube insulation are you using? Is the black stuff made of rubber about a cent size?


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I couldn't find it on TS web site~ but this is the same product I used to insulate the wire around the tree~ just from a different retailer

http://www.fishock.com/store/high-tensile-electric-fence/500-546


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## Our Little Farm (Apr 26, 2010)

That is what we use. Should be fine. Not sure why the ants are dying, or what is going wrong.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

1. That is likely simple induction. If the hot wire runs parallel to the woven wire and is reasonably close, a voltage will be induced into the woven wire. Other examples of induction are the standard AC transformer, such as sits on a power pole, and a radio tower and your radio antenna at home. In all cases, the voltage is not directly connected with a wire, but induced over a space that insulates. Induction issues are why a cable tv line has an outer shield and an inner conductor. Induction is what allows electric motors to turn.

2. I don't care for lightning diverters. I had one on my unit and removed it. Humidity and dirt play a part in whether the charge gets drained and you hear snapping. Moist air is more conductive, and will pass more charge. Lightning likes to travel in straight lines to ground. To protect your unit you can have the feed line go within an inch or so of the ground rod, with the line from the fence pointing down directly at the ground rod, then making a 90 degree turn at the closest point, with the lead curving back up to the charger. Add a couple of 18" loops in that section of wire to create a choke coil. When lightning strikes the fence, it'll run along the line towards the charger, meet up with a false leader from the ground rod, form a connection to ground there and discharge into the ground. The choke loops will cause any lightning that does continue towards the charger to run into an EMF blockade of its own making. 

3. Dead ants are good. Keep up the good work.  You likely have leakage of the current through the insulator tube. Use stand-offs to hold it away from the tree, otherwise the ants will eventually cause a direct short. The tree may appreciate not getting zapped as much as well.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

Interesting. What's a "choke loop"? Are the loops separated or can they touch each other?


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

The link below is a commercial way of doing things. It shows their version of a choke coil, down towards the bottom. The loops are separated, more separation for higher voltages, less for low voltages. Just a few loops of wire can do much the same thing.

http://www.kencove.com/fence/6_Lightning+Protection_resource.php

Chokes are clever little animals. They create a choke point partly blocking AC current, while allowing DC current to pass with no resistance. Design is typically based on the frequencies and currents involved. Wiki gives a little explanation of what they look like and are used for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choke_(electronics)

There are technical terms and specs for various chokes, but unless you are interested in electronics theory it isn't something you need to know on a day to day basis. My dad built radio stations, so I was exposed to this stuff early on in life.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Thanks!

I'm going to buy a better fence tester tomorrow. The one I have has 5 little lights that are supposed to light up~ but I can't see them unless it's dark outside. So I'm gonna pick up one of the digital ones from Tractor Supply. Hopefully troubleshooting will be easier that way than it was this morning hauling around a useless tester I couldn't see in the morning sun and listening to the fence!

I'll go ahead and put a couple of the little plastic rings around that tree to hold the insulated wire off it. Do you think I should take out the lightening arrestor? Am I wasting a lot of electricity running it straight to ground there? The charger is still reading 18.9 to 19.9 so I thought that meant I wasn't losing much voltage.


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## cc-rider (Jul 29, 2003)

My electric fence makes tiny clicking noises, too. I think I read that it was supposed to. I never worried about it. Wondered if it bothered the chickens, though!


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

If you aren't seeing a drop in voltage, continue to use it. I don't, but then I also unplug stuff when I know there is a big storm coming.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Thanks. I've only had the fence for a couple weeks and it's the first electric fence I've ever had. I was in Southern California previously and fire fear is VERY strong for me so I didn't want to do electric at all...but after spending a LOT of money to put up the woven wire fence and then watching the pigs, goats and horses attempt to destroy it...I finally gave in and am trying electric! All my neighbors have repeatedly assured me that I don't need to worry about every tiny spark here like we did in So Cal but it's still hard to get past it. I see your also in North Alabama~ so your also I neighbor I guess! We are about 45 min south of Huntsville on the 65.

I really appreciate all the help. Every time I think I know the answers I find new questions!


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Kencove has a StayFIx brand fence compass that will read voltage and give direction to the fault. It is expensive but worth the money.

In the #1 statement in your first post IMO you had a difference in ground potential. That is what you felt, one good ground and one poor ground.

The lightning diverter is wet and it is shorting through the moisture. Those things do not work.

The tube insulation at the tree is failing. Voltage is feeding through to the tree.

Put a surge protector on the power cord to the charger

Buy some extra fuses for the SE4, you will eventually need them.

Failure can be two modes....incoming down the power line and feedback from the fence in a storm.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

...................Also , the higher the voltage the greater the chance that a plastic insulator with a hairline crack will short out ! Moisture will add conductivity and will exploit and Expose any potential "shorts" in your system . 
...................All wires\conductors with a voltage traveling thru them , also have a circular magnetic field that surrounds that wire . THOSE LARGE multi cable power lines , 125 feet tall , carrying up too 300,000 plus AC volts have a magnetic field that extends all the way down too ground level ! , fordy


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## Ken Scharabok (May 11, 2002)

If it is the box itself which is ticking that is fine. Will click every time it sends juice down the wire.

If the click is somewhere in the fence, then you have a short.

Cattle can either hear or smell electric fencing. I have a couple of on/off switches on mine so I can work on a section without having to turn off the entire fence. Neighbor's young bull was 'appraising' one of my cows obviously in heat. Kept away from the fence until I shut that section down and within a minute had jumped the fence.


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## chickenista (Mar 24, 2007)

Our box clicks and we put a 'switch' in the line so that it will click on purpose. It acts as a reminder to kids and grownups that the fence is hot!


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

The box in the garage clicks. It reminds me to look at the charger whenever I go out there and check that the voltage didn't suddenly drop indicating there is a problem. I've been trying to get my husband and kids to pay attention to the charger but they can come in and out of the garage a hundred times and I'll be the one to notice when I go out that the charger says 0.0!

No~ the clicking we are hearing out by the lightening diverter is definitely not from the box. Too much distance and a solid wall between the charger and where the clicking is. I'm almost positive it's the diverter.

That Stayfix looks like a nifty a tool~ but your right it is VERY expensive! I'm going to try to justify the additional expense to my husband. It's twice as much as the one I planned to buy but it looks like four times as much tool for the cost.

If I remove the lightening diverter will the fuse in the Parmak SE4 protect it from surges coming from the fence line? I do already have the charger plugged into a surge protector and I also unplug it in really nasty weather but I want it to be protected if I happen to not be home when nasty weather comes through.


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## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

Don't touch the wire from your SE-4. Ask me how I know!!! It Hurts roughly like getting punched by Mike Tyson when he was Young. 14-18,000 volts is quite a belt. I bumped mine with the back of my head while freeing a dog who had gone under the fence. Everything went black and then brite flash and got knocked to the ground. Was holding dogs chain collar so he got zapped too. Cell Phone in my pocket was knocked off the air (turned itself off). I now turn the fence off EVERY TIME I WORK NEAR IT.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Actually~ when the gate was shocking us I thought "well those wussy dogs of mine~ why are they throwing such a tantrum over that little shock" and then I reached out and...yes...I touched the wire myself in my snotty self important way...and then started screaming like my hair was on fire. It FELT like my hair was on fire, and every joint in my body ached for HOURS after! Thats how I know the gate was not getting the full fence effect. I found out first hand why the dogs scream. What I don't understand is why the goats just give it a dirty look and walk the other direction. Tough goats. MEAN FENCE


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Cheryl aka JM
Nothing will protect the SE4 or any other charger from a hard lightning hit coming in from the fence. ParMak is good about honoring their warranty.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Nobody has responded to the ant issue. You are in the south. Fire ants LOVE electricity.

I have to use fire ant poison around the AC unit, the well pump, the septic tank controller box, and the electric fence charger monthly to prevent them from piling up in the boxes and shorting them out.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

What do you mean by "the box in the garage?"


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Sorry~ the box as in the charger~ which is in the garage. It looks like I swapped back and forth between calling it a box and the charger....but I meant the Parmak SE4 charger which is in the garage in both cases!


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## 65284 (Sep 17, 2003)

I have a light that fastens to the fence one wire to the fence hot wire another to the ground. I placed it where It can be seen from any door or window in the front of the house. If the light is flashing all is well, if not something is wrong, a not very expensive way to check the fence without going outside.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

New questions~
I bought the Stafix recommended. Disconnected the lightening diverter. The fence has stopped clicking....BUT

1. The charger went from pretty consistently reading 19.9 to pretty consistently reading 18.5. Is that a problem? I'm getting ready to run more fence but as of this moment the only difference to account for the two readings is that I disconnected the lightening diverter (all I did was remove the ground connection from the diverter so that if I changed my mind I could hook it back up. The hot connection is still run to the diverter)

2. The new fence tester is confusing the snot out of me. The instructions kind of assume you know what your doing and are not just stumbling around learning this from scratch. It says that if "the current readings are low in several places, indicating there is no fault on the line" and if "the current reading is particularly high indicating there is a fault somewhere on the fence line"...Okay~ are they talking amps or Volts? Cuz it reads both and I'm confused. The highest line of the fence has the lead out wire from the charger wrapped on it. This runs to the gate where the top line terminates and a feeder line runs to the middle line and then to the bottom line. When I take a reading to the left of the lead out wire in the direction of the gate I get 23A and 10.4KV and directing toward the gate where the feeders run to the two lower lines. Okay~ to the right of the lead out wire I get 4A and 10.5KV running in the direction of the rest of the top line. Not sure that is okay. Then when I read the middle line I get 0A and 10.4KV, the bottom line flashes between 0A to 1A and 10.4 KV~ both running the direction of the rest of that line.

So~ if I'm supposed to be looking at amps for a fault I have a problem. If I'm supposed to be reading volts I think i"m okay. Oh~ and just to make it more complicated before I disconnected the diverter I was getting readings of 45A to 50A on the top line (I didn't read the two bottom lines before I disconnected it)...and ALL of these readings are being taken within a few feet of the lead out wire. I've not even tried reading at the end of a line yet!

I'm confused.
Gonna go see what the end of a line reads. Bet thats confusing too.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Now it has changed it's mind and the top wire next to the lead out wire is reading 23A pointing back to the lead out wire, and flashing to 5A leading away from the wire. Most of the rest of the fence is reading 0A with no arrow for direction except one spot very far from the lead out wire that read 70A once, and then would not read anything but 0A so I don't know if that was a fluke of the fence tester or the fence. Pretty much the entire fence is reading 9.9KV to 10.5KV no matter what it's amp reading is.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Oh! I keep forgetting to add information. On some spots on the top wire closest to the lead out wire I get a reading from the AIR as I approach the wire with the fence tester. These readings are as high as 10A and 7KV or 8KV but usually lower. I only get readings from the air close to the line if it is a spot that is going to give me an Amp reading~ areas that have 0A readings do not register anything on the tester until I touch the tester to the wire when they read 0A and betweenb 9.9KV to 10.5KV


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

If this were a garden hose: 

Amps would be how many gallons of water are flowing through.

Volts would be how much pressure is on the line.

If you kink a garden hose, it will not have much flow, but it will build up pressure inside it.

If you have good voltage, the fence is getting a nice feed from your fencer.

If the amps are low, you have a very poor connection/ splice. Somewhere where the wires are put together, you have rust or loose connection. The voltage is passing through, but it can't carry any amps.

Sorta like a kinked garden hose - can build up pressure, but you won't get much flow.

--->Paul


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

okay~ so I know where I'm losing the amps reading at the gate so it must be a poor connection that should be remade. But why am I getting a lower amp reading on one side of the lead out wire than on the other? And why am I getting readings from the air when I get close to the top wire?


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

.....................Resistance and Voltage are opposites.................The higher the voltage the lower the resistance ! Think of this situation as a plumbing problem........the voltage is water pressure , Current is water volume or , how much water you are actually pumping out the end of a long pipe . 
.....................The size(diameter) of the wire is analgous too the diameter of the pipe , i.e. , you can pump more water thru a 3 inch pipe at 30 PSI than you can a 1 inch pipe at 30 PSI , assuming Both are the same length . Or , your electricial transformer can pump more voltage thru a bigger diameter wire , than a smaller one ! BUT , there is a factor called "friction loss" in plumbing which works just like resistance in a wire that reduces the volume of water flowing thru a pipe , Friction loss(less water flowing) increases with each additional foot of length and voltage will decrease when additional wire is added too your system . 
.......................Now , about those confusing readings , lets say you have 1000 feet of fence currently , and NO shorts , now you add another 1000 feet for a cross fence that Runs UP the side of a...Rocky... hill , and so you tap into or ONto the current hot wire , and add a couple of new grounds on the new hot wire . When , you measure your voltage at the middle and end of the new hot wire , Your voltage readings are , ALL lower than the older 1000 feet . This is a natural occurance, because run off from rain will maintain a higher moisture content and a higher voltage reading lower down along the older section of fence , rock will prevent the ground rods from being as effective as the ones along the older section of fence , and finally there is added resistance for every additional foot of the new 1000 feet of fence , you would EXpect too find lower voltage readings due too all the above factors . , fordy:thumb:


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I'm trying to understand. I'm going to read the answers several more times. I can tell they make sense...I'm just a little slow sometimes! 

I've got to go run an extension of the electric around my garden because the goats have discovered they can push their faces into chicken wire and eat garden plants with their very long lips through chicken wire. If the goats have figured this out~ it won't be long before the rest of the critters just knock the little fence down for their share of garden veggies. So~ I'm gonna electrify it today~ then it looks like I need to work on my corner connections because I'm pretty sure thats where I lost the Amps and it looks like I need them even though the fence is maintaining voltage.

I can't tell you all how much I appreciate the help. I really hate not understanding stuff and feeling like an idiot. Your all so nice about helping me get it. Thank you!


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Okay~ I am completely confused and demoralized by this stupid fence. I can't afford to give up~ I've spent a gross amount of money on it....

BUT I'M TIRED of feeling like an idiot and REALLY TIRED of getting shocked!

It makes no sence to me. The hose thing makes sense. The plumbing thing does. So how does a hose with a kink in it build pressure 6 feet PAST WHERE IT STOPS!?!

Okay~ I took some pics to help show what I'm not getting. Maybe that will help explain it.

This is the first ground rod where the lead out wires come up. I attached it to the woven wire fence here as I was told that would be a good idea and the gentleman helping me said it was too. There are 4 ground rods all together~ all four attached to the woven wire fence, all 10 to 20 feet apart. You can see in this pic where the ground from the charger comes up out of the pipe with the lead out wires, is attached to the ground rod and another lead out wire is attached to the fence.









So~ that sounds to me like what I was told to do. I should be in good shape....but remember that pic as we go on please.

This is the woven wire right next to where that ground rod is attached at~ Why is the ground woven wire fence carrying 2amps when most of the fence doesn't have a reading of ANY amps?










BUT here is a reading from the OTHER side of that ground connection~ still 2amps and they are not going to the ground but continuing on down the fence to...I don't know where...Somewhere they can nail me I expect.










So I don't get that. but wait~ there is more I don't understand

THIS is the lead out for the hot wire. the wire you can see wrapped there is the hot wire lead out from the charger. I have COMPLETELY disconnected the lightening diverter~ there should be no where for the electricity to go in this short space~ but on one side of the hot wire connection I get 7amps and 3.9kv heading TO the charger connection









And on the OTHER side of the charger connection....less than 6 inches away from that first reading just on the other side of that wrapped hot wire I get 19amps and 9.2kv GOING the other way! Also~ back to the wire that connects to the charger! Oh~ and to add to the confusing these numbers are not static~ they jump around wildly~ but it is always MUCH higher to the right of the hot wire connection than to the left of it


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Like thats not confusing enough....it gets worse. This gate is VERY far away from the charger. Probably about 3/4 of mile of wire between this gate and the charger.









AND it is 6 feet away from where the last of the hot wire is run....the hot wire that reads 0amps and 10.9kv









And the woven wire just below that hot wire reads 0amps and 0kv









BUT the gate that is 3/4 of a mile of wire away from the charger, and 6 feet away from the closest hot wire....is hot! The woven wire right next to it shows a reading of 2amps and 0volts (yes you CAN feel it and I'm getting tired of feeling it!)









But to make it even MORE complicated....because that gate is in a pasture that makes a complete circle~ while it is 6 feet from the closes hot wire on one side of it~ on the other side of it it is about 40 feet from the 4th ground rod which is grounded to the woven wire fence on that side of the gate. And get this....the gate ONLY nails you or carries a charge when it is CLOSED so that metal from the gate chain contacts both the gate and the grounded woven wire fence it is pressing against









Anyone have any clue WHY this is happening? What have I done wrong? I'm completely frustrated and I don't know what to do now but scream!
Help please!
Thank you!


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

I think the problem you're having is due to the way you have set up the fence. Why did you decide to electrify the woven wire? Typically, hotwire is run as single wires inside a fence such as field fence or non climb. They make hotwire extenders that keep the hotwire from shorting out on the fence. You shouldn't need a wall effect of hotwire, just a few strands of electrified wire should do the trick.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

The first thing you need to do is to run the ground wire by itself (do not share a conduit with the hot wire) from the charger to #1 ground rod, then put #2 ground rod about 10 feet away from #1 ground rod, then put #3 ground rod about 10 feet from #2 ground rod, then put #4 ground rod about 10 feet from #3 ground rod. Now if you want a ground wire to the woven fence connect a wire from #4 rod to the woven wire fence. It will be best to put the ground rods in a damp area or under the eve of a building where water drips off the roof. Once you get the ground in good order if that doesn't help the situation we will review the rest of the setup.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Farmergirl~ the woven wire is not electrified (edit~ okay it IS electrified but I DID NOT run the electric to it....I don't know WHY it's electrified!). It's attached to the ground connection not the hot connection. There are 3 strands of single hot wire run parellel to the woven wire fence with insulators extending those hot wires away so they do not touch the woven wire fence.

Agmantoo~ thank you~ I think thats what I need. Someone to tell me exactly what to do. I will go out tomarrow and buy some new ground rods and do exactly that. Because there is so much distance between where the fence starts and the charger (about 75 feet) I'll just run another insulated cable from the charger to the area right outside the garage and lay in some new ground rods there. That will put the ground rods about 40 feet from the beginning of the fence~ and should still be no where near any phone or water lines or the household ground rod. I didn't put it there to start with because I thought the ground would stay moister out by the septic field where I put it~ but it appears THAT isn't working the way I hoped so I'll try it up near the house like I had considered before. I'll let you know what happens once I do that.
Thank you


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Cheryl, based on your photos, I'm not quite understanding what you have done. Please correct me if I am wrong in my description. I don't mind being corrected. It is good for the soul.

1. You have four good ground rods properly connected to the ground terminal.

2. You have the woven wire fence ONLY connected to the ground and so are not concerned if that fence touches the literal ground.

3. You have a single hot wire that is a few inches away from the grounded woven wire fence.

4. You have not verified that the woven wire fence is electrically continuous.

5. The woven wire fence on the left side of the gate does not have a wire on the physical ground leading from it to the woven wire fence on the other side of the gate.

6. You fence is 3/4 of a mile in length or longer.

7. Your fence tester has no ground connection but is used by hanging it over a wire.


If all of these are correct, here are some thoughts that build, to allow you to come to your own conclusions:

The electricity in an electric fence is high voltage of very short duration, forming a pulse, kinda like a tsunami wave in the ocean, but of electricity rushing down that narrow fence wire in an attempt to bring the entire fence wire up to the XX KV (kilovolts) level that the charger puts out. Almost immediately, when the pulse dies out, the electricity rushes to any spot where there is a "leak" and discharges. (Electronics gurus, bear with me - I know that isn't technically correct, but it is a decent analogy)

For lack of a better description, that tsunami of electrical voltage can get distracted by conductors that are near it. Think of it being a rock music fan, and an Elvis concert is one street away. It'll divert some energy into thinking about that concert, even if it can't get admitted. The closer the concert, the more it wastes energy trying to get admitted.

The rating on fence chargers is based on a standard. That standard is of a single hot wire, 3 FEET away from the ground or any wire that is a ground wire.

The laws of electrical induction state that the amount of induction increases TREMENDOUSLY if wires get closer together. 

You have your hot wire within six inches of your ground wires (the woven fence).

Your tester is ONLY measuring what it can without actual contact between TWO points of electrical potential. (Think of the devices used in Ghostbusters, the movie.)

A tester like that is not used to having both the hot wire AND the ground wire near it. It can give ghostly readings under such conditions.

Induction between two close wires can be affected by stuff like wind blowing the wires nearer to each other or further apart.

Now that I have referenced a tsunami, Elvis, and Ghostbusters, the issues may become more apparent.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

1. You have four good ground rods properly connected to the ground terminal.

Yes~ 4 galvanized rods connected to the ground terminal correctly IF I understood the directions correctly. It seemed kind of idiot proof~ so I'd say absolutely yes they are correctly connected...but I think we've already established that in this specific situation I'm pretty sure I qualify as an idiot. The 1st ground rod is approx 75 from the charger (this is where the hot wire starts too) and runs from the terminal on the charger to the first rod via an underground insulated (30K rated) cable, buried most of the run but then run through a length of plastic conduit under the driveway and coming out where you can see in the first picture. The hot lead out runs parellel and through the same conduit. Both hot and ground lead outs are 30K rated insulated underground fence wire. The first ground rod is then attached to the woven wire fence. Approx 20 feet from that point the next ground rod is also attached to the woven wire fence, then 10 feet to the third, about 15 feet to the 4th rod. The 4th rod is in a spot that stays wet almost all the time. Only the first rod is connected directly to the terminal, the other three rods are connected to the first rod using the woven wire fence as the conductor.

2. You have the woven wire fence ONLY connected to the ground and so are not concerned if that fence touches the literal ground.

Yes~ the woven wire does in fact touch the ground in several places and is in constant contact with the metal Tposts which are also driven into the ground.

3. You have a single hot wire that is a few inches away from the grounded woven wire fence.

Well~ it's actually 3 hot wires, one high, one middle and one low. All the hot wires are held away from the woven wire fence with plastic insulators.

4. You have not verified that the woven wire fence is electrically continuous.

I suspect that may have something to do with why I get shocked on the gate if the gate is closed, but not if it is open. Or if I'm touch the gate and the woven wire. I think it is continuous if the gate is closed and contacting metal on the other side of the opening, but not if it is open. But of course to confuse things I went out to do chores tonight~ gritted my teeth, grabbed the gate to open it...and it didn't shock me. Don't know why~ it sure was earlier today.

5. The woven wire fence on the left side of the gate does not have a wire on the physical ground leading from it to the woven wire fence on the other side of the gate.

No it does not. I was considering putting one in~ but there is not a hot wire under that gate either. The hot wire comes in from the back side and around that pasture.

6. You fence is 3/4 of a mile in length or longer.

Approx so far. I've purchased so far 2 miles of wire~ I just opened up the 4th spool so I"ve used about 1 1/2 miles of wire....but that specific location we are discussing I suspect is about 3/4 of a mile going the long way around like the hot wire is from the charger.

7. Your fence tester has no ground connection but is used by hanging it over a wire.

Yes. Thats a nifty new toy I just bought for $99. It's supposed to make my life easier. Thats what I thought anyway. My other tester has a ground wire, but it only has 5 little lights indicating volts, I can't see the lights when it's light outside....and that new tester was supposed to make it easier to find faults in the fence. I've had it all of one day...and I hate it, I hate the fence, I hate my goats, I'm kind of hating everything right now.....

If I'm understanding what your saying about the tsunami and Elvis~ then even if I move the ground field away from the woven wire fence like I'm planning to do tomorrow I'm still going to have these issues as long as the woven wire fence is there. But I only bought the electric fencing to protect the woven wire fencing which I'd already spent an obscene amount of money on in the first place.

Yep~ I think I hate everything. That nifty new fence tester and that electric fence charger are first on the list.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

The first thing I'd do is stop looking at the amps and the arrow, and just read the voltage.

Next, I'd disconnect the woven wire from the ground rods, but still have all the ground rods connected to the charger.

If the gate is hot, that tells me there is a short nearby

Once you get the woven wire disconnected from the ground rods, check your voltages again, and if they read high enough, , don't let the changing amps worry you at all

If there is STILL a problem with current in the woven wire, you may have to do as Agman said and separate the lead out hot and ground wires.
You could be getting "induced" current just because they are so close together


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

that does bring up something I've been wondering about. What do those amp measurement mean? I've tried looking it up online, and I just can't find anything but a definition of amps. IS it a problem that there is 19 amps here and 6 amps there if the whole thing is 10kv? With all this ground discussion I still can't find ANY logical reason that the amps on the hot wire where the lead out hot is connected should be 7 amps on one side and 19 on the other side and I'm looking at 6 inches of fence I can clearly see IS NOT grounded out....but the amps are jumping wildly.

Ignore the amps?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> but the amps are jumping wildly


.


That's why I wouldn't pay any attention to them.

Your meter is TOO sensitive, and the tiniest variation in how you hold it to the wire is causing the different readings ( I think LOL)

As long as the voltage is high enough, it WILL shock the animals, which is all that really matters


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

okay~ thanks.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Read the instruction that came with the meter and learn how to use the meter.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

Look up 'stray voltage' with an internet search. Dairy farmers have battled that for years. Do you have any bigger power lines near your fence? Induced voltage....

By the way, you do _not_ have 7 amps, or 2 amps, or much of any amp at all, on your wire. You must be missing a decimal point & perhaps a zero or 2. I know what you mean, but we are dealing with frations of an amp. Your meter may be measuring in 1/1000 of an amp? At least 1/100 of an amp.

On a dry day, measure the shock value of your carpeting. You will find some wild readings. You have a very sensitive meter, measuring very tiny amounts of electricty. You have to take that into consideration....

Is your ground very dry & sandy? That makes grounding difficult. Do your ground rods go 6-8 feet deep, or are they short?

Running the hot wire & ground wire in the same pipe for a long ways isn't so good - one wire is charging the other with an induction load. Might want to just put a ground rod in next to where the box is, and ground it only there on the one rod. See if that clears up some of your issues. Don't run the ground wire out to the fence.

Somewhere, you are inducing current onto your ground setup.

Somewhere, your ground is not all grounded together.

--->Paul


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Disconnecting the woven wire fence from the grounds and wiring them all directly together did not fix the problem. It did change a few things up~ the entire fence, the charger and even the gate read lower numbers than they did last night. But the gate still shocks me, and now the fence is less powerfull than earlier. I'm going to TSC right now to buy some new ground rods and try laying a new ground feild up closer to the charger like Agmantoo suggested. Do I need to keep the cable with the ground completely away from the cable with the hot wire the entire run? If so I don't see how thats possible ~ the hot and ground terminal on the charger are right next to each other, and the cables run out the same hole in the eaves of the house. Or is just not having them run through the same plastic conduit under the driveway going to be good? Guess I'll find out.

Agmantoo:


agmantoo said:


> Read the instruction that came with the meter and learn how to use the meter.





Cheryl aka JM said:


> New questions~
> I bought the Stafix recommended. Disconnected the lightening diverter. The fence has stopped clicking....BUT
> 
> The new fence tester is confusing the snot out of me. The instructions kind of assume you know what your doing and are not just stumbling around learning this from scratch. It says that if "the current readings are low in several places, indicating there is no fault on the line" and if "the current reading is particularly high indicating there is a fault somewhere on the fence line"...Okay~ are they talking amps or Volts? Cuz it reads both and I'm confused.





Cheryl aka JM said:


> With all this ground discussion I still can't find ANY logical reason that the amps on the hot wire where the lead out hot is connected should be 7 amps on one side and 19 on the other side and I'm looking at 6 inches of fence I can clearly see IS NOT grounded out....but the amps are jumping wildly.


There is nothing on that 6 inches of fence EXCEPT the twist on of the hot wire lead out...but I have 7 amps on one side of the lead out twist on and 19 on the other side of it. The instructions just say there is a fault there....but unless it IS the hot wire lead out that IS a fault I don't see it. Maybe it has to do with the ground lead out running through the same plastic conduit as the hot lead out...maybe when I lay the new ground rods that will resolve itself? We'll see.


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

Electrical wires running exactly parrallel to each other will afect each other. The closer they are, the more that effect is. The higher the voltage is, the more that affect is.

You are dealing with very high voltages....... It's alright that the wires get close to each other from time to time, but they should not run closely in parrallel for any amount of run....

----

What type of wire did you use - the insulation on it? Because of the very high voltages, electricity likes to 'leak out' of fencer wire. Typical household 120v wire will start leaking out at 600 volts or so. The special fencer wire has a lot better insulation on it, but still, nicks & scuffs and pinholes happen. If your output wire & ground wire are basically wrapped around each other, bits of electricity will be passing through the gaps between the wires.

-----

Your gate having voltage you can feel on it is a grounding problem. The gate needs to be grounded. Where is it getting the voltage from? Overhead utility wires running in parrallel? The fencer wire bleeding to it by a wire almost touching it (forget about insulated wire - see above - the high voltage of fencers leak through insulation). Somewhere, somehow, that gate is picking up a charge. Turn off the fencer, see if the gate still has a charge.

--->Paul


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Back from the store. I bought 5 new ground rods and a masonry bit for my drill so I could bring the ground lead out of the building with it not being parallel to the hot lead out. Man at the store says I'll be at it all day~ but that bit will eventually go through the brick even though I don't own a hammer drill.

The lead out wire~ I said before it was 30K rated but I looked it up and I was wrong. It is actually 40K rated~ it was the best stuff I could find
http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=2&mscssid=TE0DEN76FRCA8LJ1VSFTWQD6PMVH2K72

However~ even with that 40K rated insulation~ I can take a reading with that nifty tester on the outside of the lead out wires and read 9-10amps on the outside of each wires insulation.

The gate~ I unplugged the charger and it doesn't shock me anymore. So it definately has something to do with the electric fence. If changing the ground bed and wiring doesn't fix it...and I've already looked I cant find anywhere the electric hot wire is touching the feild fence....then how do I ground the gate? will one of the ground rods I'm going to have to leave unused out by the fence line do or do I have to run it all the way back to the charger as well?


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Cheryl aka JM
Making this repair may be like eating an elephant. it can be done but at a bite at a time.

Install your grounds first. and connect to the charger. Put your fence tester on the charger hot wire connection. You should get high voltage and 0 amps. Now connect your insulated hot to the hot terminal on the charger and run the wire to the fence but do not connect to the fence. Take the measurement again. It should be high voltage and 0 current again. If you have a high current reading then consider drilling the separate holes. If the current reading is very low, under a few amps then connect the hot wire to the fence and read the meter again. If the amp reading jumps up high, say above 6 to 8 amps then there is a problem at the fence and you need to isolate the problem. If you will do the above and report your findings I will return here tonight to help.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

Okay~ I have more information. I have not drilled the new hole yet because Agmantoo suggested I may not have too and I really don't want to put a hole in the wall if I can help it. So I made a new ground field up next to the charger~ but the hot and ground wires are still parallel going up the inside of the garage, through the eaves, and then down the side of the house. but where the hot lead continues there out across the turkey pen and under the driveway the ground lead out only goes to just outside the garage~ wire run of about 15 to 20 feet but physical run of probably only 3 or 4 feet from the charger. The first ground rod is there~ then approx every 10 to 15 feet for a total of 5 ground rods. I could only get them driven in about 4 feet each (I think there is a shelf of rock down there~ I REALLY tried to get them deaper!) but there are 5 of them lined together so according to what I've read that gives me a total of about 20 feet of rod underground so hopefully thats good.

So now that I did that~ THE GATE STOPPED SHOCKING ME!!!!!!! WHOO HOO!!!!!! Hopefully it won't start again. 

But~ as far as those stupid amp readings. If those are important I have a real problem....because I NEVER got any readings like Agmantoo said I should. I took a LOT of readings so lets start with

With the charger plugged in~ No ground and No hot wire attached. Just the thing plugged in. 
The digital numbers on the charger are 14.4 to 14.5
The hot terminal on the charger reads 21Amps, 8.1KV
The ground terminal on the charger reads 16Amps, 0.6KV

With the charger plugged in, the ground wire lead out attached and connected to the new ground bed NO hot wire attached: (this is the condition Agmantoo said I should get High voltage and 0 amps but that is not the case)
The digital numbers on the charger are 14.3 to 14.4
The hot terminal on the charger reads 32Amps, 8.4KV
The ground terminal on the charger reads 24Amps, 0.0KV

So going on~ With the charger plugged in~ the ground wire lead out attached and connected to the new ground bed AND the hot wire lead out attached to the charger but NOT to the fence: (again according to Agmantoo I should have high voltage and 0 amps&#8230;.but I don&#8217;t) 
The digital numbers on the charger are 14.9 to 15.0
The hot terminal on the charger reads 32Amps, 2.6KV
The ground terminal on the charger reads 19Amps, 0.0KV 
The first ground rod with the hot lead NOT attached to the fence reads 0amps, 0.0KV
At the fence in this condition~ with the hot lead NOT attached to the fence the hot lead reads 0Amps, 13KV

So~ attach the hot lead to the fence~ now the readings are
The digital numbers on the charger are 16.4 to 16.6
The hot terminal on the charger reads 30Amps, 1.6KV
The ground terminal on the charger reads 17Amps, 0.4KV
The first ground rod with the hot lead ATTACHED to the fence reads 0amps, 0.0KV
At the fence in this condition~ with the hot lead ATTACHED to the fence the hot lead reads 5Amps, 8.6KV
BUT~ the same as before~ the Left of where the lead out is attached reads 1amp, 9.2KV
To the RIGHT of where the lead out is attached (6 inches away&#8230;.not grounded out at all) reads 22Amps, 9.2KV (where did it get all those amps? The lead out wire only had 5amps!)

And pretty much everything else is reading the same~ 0amps on most of the fence~ 9 to 10KV on most of the fence~ only now the gate is not shocking me. So~ I&#8217;m happy&#8230;.but I do want my fence to do all that it is designed to do and since I&#8217;ve read a lot that the amps are what gives a fence it biting power I&#8217;d kind of like to figure that out because right now I have one little section of REALLY MEAN FENCE at 22 amps (Figures that&#8217;s the area I touched it when I wanted to see how bad it was!) and a lot of not very mean fence at 0amps. I&#8217;d like to have a reasonably mean fence if possible. But I am happy the gate stopped shocking me!


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

The following readings you recorded and posted is as it should be and indicates the fence is correct at that point. 
"At the fence in this condition~ with the hot lead NOT attached to the fence the hot lead reads 0Amps, 13KV" This is as it should be and without any leakage from the hot wire to the ground going through the wall and the other routing to the fence. All is OK at this point

"At the fence in this condition~ with the hot lead ATTACHED to the fence the hot lead reads 5Amps, 8.6KV" 

This is indicating that there is a small load (5 amps) and that the fence voltage is 8,600 volts. The 8,600 volts is the potential that will drive the shock. 5 amps are being consumed at this time due to the load (wire and weeds plus leakage). This shock will be of a very short duration and comparable to static. You know when you walk across carpet and touch metal. The static is high voltage similar as the charger voltage but there is a difference in that the better the charger the higher the amperage and the harder the shock. The amperage is what differentiates the intensity of your fence charger over that of a static shock. In you situation you obviously have a good output in that you have a good amperage unit.

The next observed reading reported has me confused.

"To the RIGHT of where the lead out is attached (6 inches away&#8230;.not grounded out at all) reads 22Amps, 9.2KV (where did it get all those amps? The lead out wire only had 5amps!)"

I do not understand you statement "&#8230;.not grounded out at all)" Does this mean that the fence wire is insulated and the lead out wire is attached? It the answer is yes I need to know which direction the arrow on the new tester is pointing. If the arrow is pointing away from the charger there is a short to ground in that direction. This short will be from the fence wire to something that goes to ground. A cut insulator, the fence wire touching another wire or metal such as a tee post. Go down the fence wire and put the new tester on the fence again and look at the arrow on the tester. If the arrow reverses you have gone past the short. Also if you go past the short the amperage will drop. Keep searching using this method until you find the short. I will check back here. Let me know your results.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

I was playing with it before I had to stop and make dinner for the family. I believe the problem may be more than one issue. If I follow the direction of the 22amps I come to a corner where a feeder drops to the lower two lines of hot wire, and to an insulated cable that runs under a gate to feed the next section of fence. With all the wires attached I get 22amps on that side of the top wire~ but as soon as it terminates and goes to the feeder wire I have 0amps on the lower two lines and on the lines on the other side of the fence. If I disconnect the insulated connection to the other section of fence I get 22amps on the top line, 8amps on the feeder line, and then 0amps on the two lower lines. I'm somehow leaking at all the connections there...and I'm wondering if I made a mistake listening to the neighbor who showed me I did not need a bunch of specialty insulators cuz it would work fine wrapped around the same insulators used for line wires at corners, and that I did not need to buy splices and compressors because it would work with twisting the wire. Well...it seems it works for the KV but not for the amps. I lose the amps at the closest corner and feeder lines.

I'll play with it more Friday~ I have some obligations I can't get out of tomorrow so fence frustration will have to wait a day.


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## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

"By the way, you do _not_ have 7 amps, or 2 amps, or much of any amp at all, on your wire." If you are truly running AMPS vs milliamps you surely don't want to touch the hot wire as it is running 18-19,000 volts and that much voltage with other than MICRO-AMPS will KILL YOU. Your 120 volt household outlets are only breakered for 15-30 amps at 120/240 volts and your whole house breaker box is only 200 amps for 30-40 breakered circuits.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

You want to lose the amps. Those are amps being wasted! If you can access where the power for the fence starts under the gate and disconnect that wire. The portion of the wire that is remaining hot should drop to 0 or near 0 amps. Then go to the other side of the gate and temporarily run an insulated wire ABOVE ground and reconnect to the other side of the gate with the portion under the gate disconnected. The high amp reading should go away provided the short is under the gate. You are close to having your problem fixed!


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Here is the Specs on that fence charger.
Model SE-4 Super Energizer 4 Fence Charger (110-120 volts)
ParmakÂ®
Made in USA

LOW IMPEDANCE will shock through wet weeds and brush. Ideal for livestock and predator control. Super Energizer 4 Features:

Digital meter shows voltage on fence
Digital computer controlled circuitry
NEW - Advanced lightning protection
Increased power for predator control
UL listed
Indoor installation
*9.1 Joule rating **
50 mile range
Full one year warranty including lightning damage
* One joule is defined as: The work done to produce power of one watt continuously for one second; or one watt second.

For proper grounding of ALL Parmak fencers,* it is recommended that you use three (3) 8' copper ground rods spaced at 10' intervals. *
That is 3--- 8 Foot Copper Ground Rods NOT attaching to some other fence for ground but Pounded into the Ground to near ALL of their 8 Foot~!!!! And THEN ground to the ground side of the fencer. That is Grounding the unit.. Now you can run a Separate Ground wire close to the hot wire for better shocking capability to the animals. But it MUST be Grounded into the Ground as deep as 8 foot~!


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

YuccaFlatsRanch
She is replying to a device that is giving a reading that is monitoring a capacitor discharge arc for the briefest of time. She is not in danger from the voltage/amperage.


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

When I give the amp readings it's just what the tester is telling me. It very probably IS milliamps...but as I read the display it shows a number and then an A and the instructions say that is the amperage display~ so I've been reporting the numbers as they are given by the tester. As amps. I don't know all that much about it~ but I imagine your right and it can't be full amps it is reading...but since it says Amperage I've been reporting the numbers given in that spot as the amp reading.

It is grounded. It was grounded before with 4 ground rods and to the woven wire fence. That apparently was causing a problem~ so now it s grounded with 5 ground rods. I do not have them driven 8foot into the ground...I live in a very rocky area (locals call it a mountain...but I don't know about that) So since I could not get the rods driven the full 8 feet down I went with the recommendation that for every Joule you should have two feet of rod underground. I have 5 rods~ 6 foot each driven at least 4 foot deep each. That gives me at least 20 feet of rod underground~ which for 9 joules is what is called for. And it's working. The rods are not that expensive and if I have a problem~ I'll drive a couple more~ or if I could figure out how to lift the four I put in down by the fence line I could just add those to the ground bed I created today.

Thanks!


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Cheryl aka JM
You can jack the abandoned ground rods out using an old vehicle bumper jack or equivalent. Wrap a short length of log chain around the ground rod and hook same to the jack and start jacking. Just wrap the chain about 4 or 5 turns and is should get a grip on the rod. You may have to experiment but it will work. Been there. PS....did you see my last post?


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

..............After reviewing your pics of the ground connections I'd offer this observation , simply wrapping one wire around another isn't a very good idea , it can create a high resistance connection over time thru rust , etc which will reduce the voltage significantly ! Notice how you attach the ground wire too the ground rod , thru a compression screw that forces physical contact between the two metal surfaces . This is how you should make ALL connections regardless of ground wire or hot wire . 
.............Too accomplish this cheaply , simply take a 1 inch long x 1\4 inch bolt and use some larger washers along with 1\4 inch washers and then put both wire surfaces between the big washers and tighten securely . This type of physical connection is infinitely more conductive electricially than simply wraping one wire around another . They also make some electrically conductive grease that you could dabb onto these connections , the point being that the grease will inhibit rust from forming on the bare metallic surfaces . It will eventualy form but it will take much longer in the presence of the grease . , fordy


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## Cheryl aka JM (Aug 7, 2007)

It's raining today so I can't work on the fence. But I do have a new observation~ frustration. The gate that WAS shocking me before stopped when I moved the ground bed away from the woven wire fence and up by the turkey pen. The turkey pen does not have a hot wire on it~ The INSULATED hot lead out wire does run along one side of the turkey pen, but there is not hot wire on that pen and that pen is not attached to the ground rods at all. This morning when I went out to do chores....the gate on the turkey pen zapped me. So~ I now have a NEW gate zapping me. Should I ground it? To the ground rods for the charger or drive it's own ground rods?


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## arabian knight (Dec 19, 2005)

Cheryl aka JM said:


> The* INSULATED hot lead* out wire does run along one side of the turkey pen, but there is not hot wire on that pen and that pen is not attached to the ground rods at all. This morning when I went out to do chores....the gate on the _turkey pen zapped me_. So~ I now have a NEW gate zapping me. Should I ground it? To the ground rods for the charger or drive it's own ground rods?


The reason the New Gate is now shocking you is the Insulated Hot Lead Wire has a Crack in it Shorting through the ground to the gate. In other words since this is now shorting to another gate after moving it, the Insulation is BAD on the hot lead in wire.
REPLACE the Insulated Hot Lead In Wire. 
Note: If this is a black hard plastic outer coating, with heavy gauge wire inside, I have had PLENTY of trouble myself when that type is under ground, EVEN though it does say you can Bury It~!!!!! The Plastic Coating gets hair line cracks in it and that shorts to what ever it is close to, Or in your case BOTH Gates that have had this Same Insulated wire close to it.


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

Cheryl, I know this is a real pain for you, and I admire your spunk at keeping after it, but when I read about the new gate zapping you, I suddenly got this mental image of you with "Bride of Frankenstein" hair standing on end. 

I agree with that leaking insulation idea. High voltages leak, especially in wet conditions.


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