# WHY is she pawing the ground???



## midkiffsjoy (Sep 29, 2005)

Okay, I went out to try using one of those bebe baby listening montior thingys on Holly and caught her giving birth. She had two out and I bounced her "just in case" *roll eyes* and darn if I didnt feel another one (I was SURE). She was pawing the ground like mad, and eventually gave birth to a third kids. I bounced her again and didnt feel a fourth, so we took her and the kids outta the pasture and into pen by the house. She's passed the afterbirth, but she's STILL pawing the ground!!! She's pawed a kid once or twice while doing this and I'm kinda worried about her. ALSO her milk is THICK. It's like yellow elmer's glue. I dont remember colostrum (YES I cant spell, move on) being SO thick!!!????!!! I've managed to give two of the kids 4 oz of cows milk, and the tiny one about an oz. Mom bought that colostrum in a bag and I dont know if I should use it or not. DO NOT say, "Find a dairy and buy colostrum" because there ARE NONE around here. It's just not an option. What else can I do????

Help???


----------



## deafgoatlady (Sep 5, 2007)

She is in labor. That is why she is pawing the ground..


----------



## Rockytopsis (Dec 29, 2007)

Why would you use store bought stuff when you have the real thing? Some of my goats have very thick colstrum but the kids manage to get it down.


----------



## MisFitFarm (Dec 31, 2007)

RockyTopSis is right. Plus, Mom's groceries are SO much better for the kids than the store bought kind! And they really need colostrum, so you should be trying to get them to nurse Momma. How is she now? Is she still pawing? Did she clean up the kids?


----------



## Jillis (Sep 11, 2005)

That thick colostrum is the good stuff! Give it to the babies before 12 hours from birth is gone. Use a needleless syringe if you have to. 

Perhaps the pawing is the mother goat "nesting". She'll settle down soon enough. Is she a first freshener? If so, she might be quite unsettled about her new role as a mother. Especially with triplets! If you feel she might hurt the babies, maybe you should separate them, but do milk out that colostrum and give it to the babies. 

HTH! Jill~


----------



## AnnaS (Nov 29, 2003)

Colostrum "replacers" do not have enough active IgGs. The babies should be given their dam's colostrum ASAP. Raw, if you are not doing CAE prevention, or heat treat by holding the colostrum at 135-140 degrees for 1 hour. I heat colstrum in a double boiler to 140, then pour the colostrum into a Thermos, wrap the Thermos with towels, & take the temp in 1 hour. 

The Elmer's glue thing is normal. The babies should get at least 8 oz in the first 6 hours. 

The pawing is also normal- it's nest building, and they can get a little carried away. It doesn't necessarily mean that she has another kid in her. 

Congrats on the babies!


----------



## Jan in CO (May 10, 2002)

She may be having contractions to pass the placentas, and is pawing because of them. Not to worry, just let them have the colostrum from their dam, and keep a close eye on them to be sure she has enough milk and is allowing them all to nurse. Congrats! Jan in Co


----------



## midkiffsjoy (Sep 29, 2005)

This was not her first time, though I think it's the first time she's had triplets. I've never seen colostrum so thick, so I had to ask. Her milk SUCKS. I mean mother's milk is best, but if she's not making enough of it (and she isn't) well, you're kinda stuck. I'm not letting kids die because "mother's milk" is the best. I'm giving them SOMETHING!!! Neither she nor Babe kidded making enough milk. I have them in a pen with unlimited clean water, unlimited alfalfa pellets, mineral/bs, unlimited beet pulp, and some calf manna (although NOT unlimited). Holly has A LITTLE milk and they are scarfing it down (though I'm having to help the littlest one cause the other two keep knocking her down and out of the way) but not enough, and Babe's milk still isnt in, after having given birth three days ago (though her two are still trying her). In other words I'M THE SUPPLIMENTER, right now I'm using whole cow milk from the store, but would powered colostrum be better than whole cow milk from the store? How about powdered colostrum MADE with whole cow milk from the store instead of water????

Hope I was a little clearer that time. grin. Thanks!!!

OH - Holly is STILL pawing at the ground like a weirdo, and she passed the placenta before I posted the first time. Maybe she's just confused due to having triplets for the first time.

I'll post pictures soon! Waiting for the darn things to upload, and in the meantime Bonnie and Belle seem to be starting labor. Oh Joy! (MAN I'm tired!)


----------



## CountryHaven (Jul 17, 2005)

Are you sure there isn't another one in there that didn't come out?
She sounds like she's still in labor. I would definately think by now the pains of childbirth would be passed.


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

If you do not get colostrum in them soon they will most likely die. They should not have been given any whole milk yet, just colostrum. Mom's is fine. It doesn't matter if it's thick. Mix up some of the powdered colostrum as directed & mix it with the dam's colostrum to thin it out some & get it down them ASAP!


----------



## Jan in CO (May 10, 2002)

Sounds like you are doing the right thing, by supplementing them. Don't beat yourself up over it, some just don't make much milk, and nothing you feed them does any good. I can tell if I DON'T feed alfalfa, or enough of it, the milk production the next milking is less than half what they normally give! 

I've had does and ewes that can feed triplets, and some that can't feed one. Store cow's milk is better than milk replacer, most of which has soy in it and gives them the runs. After the first day, it doesn't make sense to spend the extra on colostrum, so I'd skip that and keep doing what you're doing. Maybe the does will pick up production a bit, and maybe not. You're doing fine, just keep an eye on them. Jan in Co


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

If they didn't get colostrum within the first 12 hours you will be lucky if they make it. They need that colostrum. Any little bit is better than none.


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

They don't make much milk at first because the babies don't need much milk at first. Humans work the same way. The babies get maybe an ounce or so at a time at first. Then, they take a nap and go back for another ounce after they wake up.

Don't expect gallon production right after giving birth. It doesn't work that way.


----------



## midkiffsjoy (Sep 29, 2005)

She's finally laid down. I bounced her after the third, and didn't feel another one. And then she passed the BIG afterbirth. They didn't get alfalfa all winter. It's hard to decide what to feed when everyone has their own VERY different opinion, so I tried my own feeding schedule, and it didn't work. Now I know, and I can try something else. I KNOW they dont give a gallon a day at first, but I know they should have enough to feed their babies, and this year, they dont. Babe's kids got less colostrum than the triplets have had, and they are thriving. Luck, but hey, I'll take it! 

Wendy - Thank you for letting me know that powdered colostrum is better than nothing! Next time I'll know and I'll go get that in them. They did try very hard to strip out what Holly had, but she didnt have enough to shake a stick at. So they probably all got a mouth full, but that's it.

Jan - Nod. I'm learning that alfalfa pellets is something that can not be gone without. I had a doe die of bloat over alfalfa hay, but I've since learned that Texas's alfalfa hay is CRAP, so I'm not so scared to use alfalfa pellets anymore. I'm so in shock over Babe not having any milk because she's my BEST milker. She milked for two years on one freshening, and STILL had to hop to the milk room every morning. Holly isn't my best, but she's not a poor milker either. I HONESTLY think this is a lack of alfalfa pellets rearing it's ugly head and I hope that them having access to them NOW will help up their milk production. I've also started giving my other does alfalfa pellets and beet pulp free choice. I hope they wont have QUITE the problem Babe and Holly are having. 

The REALLY weird thing is NONE of my other does EVER pawed the ground!!! They cry. They hollor. They get up and get down. They make no noise at all and just drop them as they browse, but I've never had a doe paw the ground. THAT was a new one to ME!!! But then if I had triplets, I might do some things dh has never seen me do while giving birth too!!!! giggle. (It would *bite* to have triplets, but that's just ME!!!!)

Thanks All!! They are resting right now. I'm gonna make up some powdered colostrum, and get it in them ASAP!!! *grin*


----------



## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

If they are older than 12 hours the powdered colostrum really won't do much for them anymore. You can still give it to them, but if they don't get the antiodies they need right away, they do not do well.


----------



## midkiffsjoy (Sep 29, 2005)

Thanks Wendy! WELL.....I mixed it up and went out with a bottle in each pocket (I felt like a old west cowgirl) woke up the three babies, gave them each 2 oz, 2oz, and 3 oz respectivly. One cried and what would I hear from across the pasture, but a return cry. I finished them up (well within 12 hours of birth), grabbed a flashlight and headed out into the pasture. Bonnie, a first freshener I had penned up this afternoon, gave birth to twins, cleaned one, and then stood there like a moron staring at them with this WHAT IS THAT SLIMY THING SCREAMING AT ME!!!!! sigh. Ran back up to the house, grabbed towels, and the vet box. Called mom to come back down. I cleaned up the kids, let Duece in the pen to clean up the afterbirth (she really is a life saver), bounced Bonnie to check for a third, and mom showed up to help hold Bonnie to get the kids to nurse. Bonnie is freaking and wont let them nurse. I checked her spicots and they are on and they have milk. She doesnt have a big udder, but she out to be able to feed them if she'd HOLD still. I made a bed up for them, gave them each an oz of the extra bottle I had on me, and put them all togeather. I'm gonna take a hot shower and go back out and check on them. I tried to get ya'll pics but the chip wasnt in the camera. The doeling is brown with a dark stripe down her back with a star on her head and the buckling is black with a white strip on one side (going up and down) with a star on his head. They are beautiful. I'm worried about the buckling. She'd cleaned up the doeling, but COMPLETELY ignore the buckling and he isnt as active, and has a little phlemy sound when he breathes. sigh. I'm crossing my fingers and passing out. This whole 7 kids in one week thing is NOT cool!!! I'm NEVER doing it that way EVER AGAIN!!!


----------



## deetu (Dec 19, 2004)

Wendy said:


> If they didn't get colostrum within the first 12 hours you will be lucky if they make it. They need that colostrum. Any little bit is better than none.


I have had a few doelings that never got colostrum and lived fine lives. One was a triplet that was a premee that took two days before it could stand. (Her two sisters were regular weights) She is five now and turned out to be a really nice doe, giving me twin doelings her FF and taking really good care of them. Another one was sold as day old and died from bloat at three months because the woman who bought her went immediately to replacer instead of staying on the cows milk.

What I'm saying is that it is best to get colostrum in them but it is not neccesarily a death sentance if they don't.


----------



## Tam319 (Jan 6, 2007)

midkiffsjoy said:


> This whole 7 kids in one week thing is NOT cool!!! I'm NEVER doing it that way EVER AGAIN!!!


LOL That is funny...we had 8 babies today and one more in labour right now. I wish they'd have MORE of them, get it over faster. LOL Kidding is a fun time but so exhausting, eh? 

I hope the little ones thrive. We had one doe last year with thick, goopy pudding like colostrum. Still seemed to do the trick!  Be patient as when their milk comes in they might just surprise you and produce enough for everybody. Colostrum is pretty concentrated stuff so you aren't going to see the same volume as you would milk.


----------



## midkiffsjoy (Sep 29, 2005)

Tam319 said:


> LOL That is funny...we had 8 babies today and one more in labour right now. I wish they'd have MORE of them, get it over faster. LOL Kidding is a fun time but so exhausting, eh?
> 
> I hope the little ones thrive. We had one doe last year with thick, goopy pudding like colostrum. Still seemed to do the trick!  Be patient as when their milk comes in they might just surprise you and produce enough for everybody. Colostrum is pretty concentrated stuff so you aren't going to see the same volume as you would milk.


*MOUTH HANGING OPEN* OH MY STARS!!!! 8 in ONE day!!???!!! Holy terror!!! And did I say "ACKKKKK!!!!"???!!!??? 

And I thought 5 in one day stunk!!! Well, I just checked on Holly's spickets and they are shooting out fine now. Pudding is a great way to describe what she had. It was really far out. She still hasnt made a bag, but she's got some and hopefully it'll come in. I was a huge bf mom myself and it really ticks me off when a mom says "Oh I can't bf cause I skipped some feedings, gave em a bottle, and now I have no milk" Use it or loose it. Use it more and more will come in. So I'm hoping they keep stripping her and her body starts in. I think it'll help now that she has alfalfa pellets.
Bonnie is really ticking me off!!! She's not ignoring hers, she talks to them, but she wont let them nurse, and she wont lay down with them. Even the DOG wanted to lay down with them!!! As far as they are concerned they WANT mom, but if the stumbling woman in overalls that smell of spilled iodine comes into the pen MUG HER cause she has a bottle!!! I'm gonna strap Bonnie down in the morning and rape her of her milk against her will to give it to her kids cause "this aint happenin'". I am NOT having the ONE goat that gave birth WITH A BAG decide that she doesnt FEEL LIKE feeding her kids!!! Mom once had to put one of her does on the stand to make it allow one of it's twins to nurse. She was a ff too and let one nurse, but not the other. I dont know whats with all these multipul births!!! I'm so used to ff having ONE (and it's always a buckling) and then after that them having two (one of each) this year's been "different". Oh well......We are building our barn this month and I will SO be wiring that sucker so NEXT year I will have LIGHT!!!!!! (Cause this whole trying to help a doe out in the dark of night thing does NOT rock my boat!!!) I SURE hope Belle doesnt kid (she's lost her ligaments and her goat parts are puckered outward) TONIGHT. I'm out of towels..... (And I could SO use a shower!!!! groan. grin.)


----------



## Jillis (Sep 11, 2005)

Midkiffsjoy said:


> It's hard to decide what to feed when everyone has their own VERY different opinion, so I tried my own feeding schedule, and it didn't work.


I just wanted to comment that it is one thing to have an opinion, and another to have an _informed_ opinion. Should one be seeking "opinions" or "information"? 
I sought information, and then sifted through the information I received. I took several factors into consideration:

The experience and success of the people I was asking.

The references they provided to back up their "opinions". 

The results in their animals.

I am not trying to be snarky here. I have benefited tremendously from the input I received from this particular forum over every other source, and I am a person who does enormous research on anything I get involved with. There are goatkeepers here whose knowledge, experience and desire to help beginners has been a gift beyond price. No need to seek _opinions_, look for those who have experience and information. 

Congratulations on your new babies!

Jill~


----------



## midkiffsjoy (Sep 29, 2005)

Not snarky at all! The problem is every single goat owner feeds their own way because in their OPINION their way is the best way. And then when someone asks, everyone shares their OPINION on what to feed. In somes opinion, replacer is fine. In others opinion replacer "is tha devil". It was MY opinion (after doing more reasearch than is healthy. I even bought out of print books from other COUNTRIES about goats. I read everything I could get my HANDS on.) that everyone was trying to make it overcomplicated. After all don't Boers and Spanish goats live on pasture alone? Didn't aplines live in the mountians on browse alone? Well, I have learned I was wrong. I have decided that since I know a great goat by the name "Lonesome Does" in it's name that I am just gonna give up and feed mine as closely to match the way Vickie feeds hers as I can. I know if I do that, than I can not go wrong. And in the meantime I know that every rotational patch that I finish and add will make all of our lives that much better.

It really helped when I read about calcium on WWW.DAIRYGOATINFO.COM (GO READ IT!) and then I UNDERSTOOD the importance of protien. I understood alfalfa. I understood WHAT it does. I was taught at Praire View Goat Research Center that I should have at least 12% protien, but that's not enough to make good milk. That's enough to keep them alive. Now I know the DISTINCTION! Now I know about the ration of protien/phosphorus. Knowing the WHYS makes it easy to understand everyones OPINIONS and to decide for yourself what to do. 

If it was so easy to decide what to feed there wouldn't be people who are having kids that are too big cause they fed too much grain. Ketosis wouldn't be something that keeps goat owners up at night. How many people here feed "Goat Chow" because the options spin their heads??? Everyones got to learn how to feed their goats the best they can. Not everyone has access to the same feeds. I've figured out how NOT to feed mine (and I STILL did better than SOME I've seen!!!). I've seen some that just dont care. I do.


----------



## debitaber (Jun 6, 2003)

put the kids on her, and let them suck, and yes, some times it is that thick , she is still in labor, but some times with one or two sucking, it helps bring the next one faster. and her kids need that colostrum now. It is important, that they get is as soon after birth as possible.


----------



## midkiffsjoy (Sep 29, 2005)

Okay.....triples, yesterday. Passed everything. Labor is over. She is STILL pawing the ground today. Weirdo. giggle. Maybe it's just her stress tick (like sucking her thumb) for dealing with having had triplets for the first time. grin.


OH!!! And while I'm still supplementing them some, Babe and Holly have begun competing and now they are doing much better, except for the 2lb triplet which I'm having to supplement heavily due to being knocked out of the way a lot by it's bigger siblings. 

Babe and Holly are having an "I'm a better mom than YOU contest" (And I thought only we humans were so silly as to try that! giggle)

Now if only BONNIE would GET A CLUE!!! (She still doesnt know what her kids are. sigh.)


----------



## CountryHaven (Jul 17, 2005)

I'd be a little worried about that doe still pawing the ground. I don't know if calling a vet is an option for you but it sounds like something is retained in there. Even something as small as a little teeny tiny patch of placenta can end up killing the doe.


----------



## midkiffsjoy (Sep 29, 2005)

I'd have never thought of it being that! Thank you for pointing that out!


----------



## CountryHaven (Jul 17, 2005)

you're welcome, I hope she's okay.


----------



## midkiffsjoy (Sep 29, 2005)

It's weird she'll paw until she's down to the dirt (or in the case of the pen she's in now, which is really my garden that was fenced off, the carpet I put down as a weed barrier) and then laying down. It's like she cant stand the feel of leaves, or grass. It was warm today, and alfalfa tends to heat animals up. If she were a dog I would think that she was trying to cool off. I will make sure to give her a shot of antibiotic when I get home. When she was taking her time birthing the third, I sterilized my hands, put them in gloves, and sterilized them too before I check her. I didnt give her a shot then, it was up at mom's house, and I forgot till your post. I'm gonna claim lack of sleep (common household items are starting to turn into goats from the corner of my eye) for being so stupid as to not haven given her the shot yet. In the meantime I've taken the 2lb triplet to give her a break, and give it a chance. It's still gonna sleep with them at night, but I'm feeding it. 

I can just see taking it around town in a small dog purse like those shiny blonds. giggle.


----------



## CountryHaven (Jul 17, 2005)

> common household items are starting to turn into goats from the corner of my eye


I can't quit claim the household products yet, but so far this kidding season my girls have had me waiting and watching so long I've mistaken a chicken, 2 cats, and an overturned bucket (I guess that could sort of be counted as a household item) for kids in the straw.


----------



## midkiffsjoy (Sep 29, 2005)

CountryHaven said:


> I can't quit claim the household products yet, but so far this kidding season my girls have had me waiting and watching so long I've mistaken a chicken, 2 cats, and an overturned bucket (I guess that could sort of be counted as a household item) for kids in the straw.


THE PIG!!! The goats have their own pet potbelly pig, and that thing (I'm mad at her now, so I'm referring to patty cake as "that thing") snuggles down in the hay with the goats and every time I go out I see a bit of the pig and think it's a kid!!!


----------



## Goat Servant (Oct 26, 2007)

Ok Im jumping over replies here about Bonnie is it? Who is not letting her kid(s) nurse?
Right now I have a doe out there still in kidding pen w/week old trips. This doe has always rejected the smallest kid. First time I gave up & bottle bed the one. 
The second yr she was showing signs of rejecting a little doeling. I went out there and held her several times a day to make her nurse that baby. After several days of this it got so when she saw me coming she'd she'd kick into mom mode & look at me as if to say, "See I am taking care of my baby."

This is a very stubborn hard headed large % doe and after about 3 days of DH & I going out there, one holding a rear leg up & the other holding her head..this am I went out by myself and while I still had to hold her she wasnt fighting it as much so we MAY have turned a corner.
One of her doelings this yr got disbudded at future owners request. She was the largest baby. I KNEW she would try to reject her.


----------



## midkiffsjoy (Sep 29, 2005)

Yes, it was Bonnie. I honestly believe it was that she was scared of them due to the fact that she kidded in the pitch black darkness of night for her first freshening. BUT.....then Belle kidded with twins and did a GREAT job!!! Bonnie now is doing a much better job. I dont know if it was cause she could see what she was supposed to be doing, or that doe competition thing. But everyone's doing well except I still give little Moolah an extra bottle now and again. She doesnt always get her share with being so much smaller than her brother and sister. 
Last year we have to put Olympia in the stand to let Aphrodite nurse till she got used to her. But mom has the stand. I have to wait till the barn is finished till I can get a stand (gonna happen next).

grin.




Goat Servant said:


> Ok Im jumping over replies here about Bonnie is it? Who is not letting her kid(s) nurse?
> Right now I have a doe out there still in kidding pen w/week old trips. This doe has always rejected the smallest kid. First time I gave up & bottle bed the one.
> The second yr she was showing signs of rejecting a little doeling. I went out there and held her several times a day to make her nurse that baby. After several days of this it got so when she saw me coming she'd she'd kick into mom mode & look at me as if to say, "See I am taking care of my baby."
> 
> ...


----------

