# pitt attack



## debbydoo1966 (Jan 15, 2007)

http://blogs.app.com/saywhat/2010/09/06/woman-85-mauled-to-death-by-her-pit-bull/
Sorry, but I just dont trust pitts. 
I love dogs and I know there is always a possibility for any dog to attack. But pitts are just to strong for most of us to fight off. It certainly looks to be the case for this woman and her loyal dog of 9 years. It took many shots to kill this dog.


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

Is it possible that the woman fell (or died) and the dog was trying to drag her outside to the others? This is just too weird.


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## mothernature (Aug 22, 2010)

I work with dogs professionally and do NOT deal with pit bulls in any way!! They are dangerous and should NOT be bred! I've met some nice pits, but they can NEVER be trusted, they are bred to be the way they are (no fault of their own). That's one breed that should be weeded out completely.


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## debbydoo1966 (Jan 15, 2007)

Of course anything is possible.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Maura said:


> Is it possible that the woman fell (or died) and the dog was trying to drag her outside to the others? This is just too weird.


That's what I was thinking. But then why would they have such trouble getting the dog off of her? And why did it take so many shots to kill the dog...very weird story. I think there is more to it.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

I dunno. I am hesitant to comment on stories like this since the ones that involve other breeds are rarely written about. In my line of work I do know that I am waaay more likely to get bitten or attacked by a small Chi or Poodle simply because breeders tend to overlook temperament in these breeds because they are so tiny and cannot do much damage. I work on a Pit that is honestly THE nicest dog I groom. He has his paws on my shoulders kissing me all over and knocking things over with his happy tail the entire time.

I think the problem with Pits is A- There is a subculture of inner city people breeding them for human aggression and B- They do have stronger jaws than other dogs so are more likely to inflict damage. Those two facts do not make an entire breed bad, only the unethical people breeding certain strains of them (an the poorly bred strains that come out of these breedings).

The Pit was originally bred for gameness with other dogs only. Men had to be in the pit handling them and dogs who showed any aggression towards people would be killed. Aggression towards humans is not normal for this breed, and not what it was developed for...The Staffy Bull for instance has been known as the "Nanny Dog" throught history because of it's great ability to interact with kids.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Haven said:


> The Pit was originally bred for gameness with other dogs only. Men had to be in the pit handling them and dogs who showed any aggression towards people would be killed. Aggression towards humans is not normal for this breed, and not what it was developed for...


There were many very successful fighting dogs that were man eaters. If the dog was a winner it didn't matter what they did.
The cajun rules are the ones used by most dog fighters but they are not the only set of rules.
If the dog was human aggressive and could not win a fight it was destroyed.
If the dog was human aggressive and a winner it was not destroyed.

There have been many matches where both handelers and referee carried clubs into the pit.


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## asti (May 18, 2010)

pancho said:


> There were many very successful fighting dogs that were man eaters. If the dog was a winner it didn't matter what they did.
> The cajun rules are the ones used by most dog fighters but they are not the only set of rules.
> If the dog was human aggressive and could not win a fight it was destroyed.
> If the dog was human aggressive and a winner it was not destroyed.
> ...


And precisely why there are unstable dogs in the gene pool, they were created
in the real- pit world your opposition handled your dog and you handled his, this way no-one could put dope or anything else on their own dog.
Most if not all of these dogs were family members - meaning being in the home and did their fair share of farm work whether it be vermin or predator control or saving the owners life from a raging sow or bull.

I have own, bred, shown, rescued, rehabbed and re-homed the APBT for almost 30 years now and working at all breed boarding kennels and vets offices over the years, I have yet to be bitten by an APBT but have been several times by dobies, shepherds, huskys, weiner dogs and cocker spaniels just to name a few.

a friend of mine had her thigh tore open and nearly died from the wound 
caused by a Weimaraner - a bird dog
what about the lady in France that had her face tore off by her lab?
This woman probably had a stroke or heart attack, RIP and her dog was probably indeed trying to get her outside, where's the autopsy report?
we most likely will never see one cause the dog had nothing to do with it


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

pancho said:


> There were many very successful fighting dogs that were man eaters. If the dog was a winner it didn't matter what they did.
> The cajun rules are the ones used by most dog fighters but they are not the only set of rules.
> If the dog was human aggressive and could not win a fight it was destroyed.
> If the dog was human aggressive and a winner it was not destroyed.
> ...


You speak from experience?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

asti said:


> And precisely why there are unstable dogs in the gene pool, they were created
> in the real- pit world your opposition handled your dog and you handled his, this way no-one could put dope or anything else on their own dog.
> Most if not all of these dogs were family members - meaning being in the home and did their fair share of farm work whether it be vermin or predator control or saving the owners life from a raging sow or bull.
> 
> ...


You are very wrong about what happens in the real pit world. The only time the opponent touches or has access to your dog is during the wash. They are closely watched and never are alloowed to touch the opponents dog during the match. To do so is a forfeit, you loose. You are allowed to handle your dog only, never the opponents.

Most fighting dogs were sold several times. Most were not family dogs and definately didn't do any type of farm work. Using a real pit match dog for vermin control is like using a sledge hammer to kill mosquitos. Ask anyone with a real match dog and see if they will allow a dog worth thousands of $$ to be used as a catch dog. Catch dogs are cheap and can be bought for a couple of hundred $$ any time and anywhere. A real winning match dog is worth thousands of $$, they are few and far between, and much too valuable to take the chance of death or injury being used as a catch dog.

I have raised hundreds of pit bulls. Was a pit bull judge for a time, raised, trained, showed, and matched dogs. I have been bitten many times, have the scars to prove it. Was nearly killed by one of my own dogs.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Reptyle said:


> You speak from experience?


Yes, years of experience.


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## asti (May 18, 2010)

Not familiar with the way things work around your neck of the woods but I am not 100% wrong on my facts
there is a reason many people should not have dogs period just like kids - they aren't capable of doing things right


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

asti said:


> Not familiar with the way things work around your neck of the woods but I am not 100% wrong on my facts
> there is a reason many people should not have dogs period just like kids - they aren't capable of doing things right


My neck of the woods covered the entire U.S., Cuba, and several other countries.
You are completely 100% wrong. You have read a few Peta reports and choose to believe them. They are 100% wrong also.
Just do a search on cajun rules. It is very easy to read the rules. Cajun rules are used by most people but not by all. 
Country rules is another set of rules.
Check them out then return to post what you find.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

pancho said:


> I have been bitten many times, have the scars to prove it. Was nearly killed by one of my own dogs.


What precipitated the attack?


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## asti (May 18, 2010)

I'm not having a ----ing contest with you pancho and you don't know me at all so please don't assume you do
peta is a dumpster full of crack-heads in my opinion
and the rules of pit fighting have been changed over the years by people that have chosen to disobey the law regarding fighting
The origins of this breed were not to be human aggressive, period
and they were indeed working farm family members and they did handle each others dogs in the ring

since one of your own dogs attacked you and you have been bitten several times I would say you aren't doing it right and in fact are indeed helping maintain unstable dogs in the gene pool.
The public has already voiced their opinions and many wish the breed exterminated is that your end goal?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolf Flower said:


> What precipitated the attack?


I had a pair of dogs in the breeding pen. Both were of my own breeding and I owned all of the dogs in their 7 gen. pedigree.
man, his wife, and their young daughter were in my house waiting for me to get a pup they were interested in buying. While I was getting the pup the woman and daughter decided to come out of the house to look around. I had told them to remain in the house until I got back.

The male and female in the breeding pen started fighting. I didn't have my breaking sticks on me at that time. I went into the pen to attempt to separate the 2 dogs before they did serious damage to each other. I was unable to separate the two dogs and hit the male in the process. He left the female dog and hit me in the side before I even knew he had released the female. He weighed 49lbs and took me to the ground immediately. It was the first time he had attacked a person so he wasn't sure how to go about making the kill. He released my side and attempted to go for my throat. I was able to throw the dog 10-15 feet away from me. As soon as he hit the ground he launched another attack, going for the throat each time. I was able to catch the dog in midair each time and backed up a few steps each time. After several attacks I had my back up against the gate. He attacked again, I caught him and threw him as far as I possible could and got out of the gate before he could reach me again.

What saved me was the clothing I was wearing and the inexperienced dog and my experience with dog attacks.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

asti said:


> I'm not having a ----ing contest with you pancho and you don't know me at all so please don't assume you do
> peta is a dumpster full of crack-heads in my opinion
> and the rules of pit fighting have been changed over the years by people that have chosen to disobey the law regarding fighting
> The origins of this breed were not to be human aggressive, period
> ...


Like I said. Check out cajun rules. See how long they have been used. See the results if you touch the opponents dog during a match. Then come back and we can have a discussion when you learn a little more about the subject.

One thing is for sure, if you think you are the handeler for the opponents dog you do not have a clue about what you are talking about. Never in history has that been done.
Do a little research and you will see. I am not asking for you to believe me. Check for yourself. Lets see if you can come up with an answer when it was possible to handle the opponents dog. I will read any site that states thet. See if you can find one.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

asti said:


> since one of your own dogs attacked you and you have been bitten several times I would say you aren't doing it right and in fact are indeed helping maintain unstable dogs in the gene pool.
> The public has already voiced their opinions and many wish the breed exterminated is that your end goal?


First, the pit bull is my favorite breed. Did you miss the part about me being a pit bull judge. I have worked many years trying to tell the truth about the breed and help prevent attacts from happening in the first place.

Take a look at any attact by a pit bull. You will not find the dog doing the attacting is a real fighting dog. It is always the loving pet who one day decides to go wild. People who are not informed about the breed, fail to research the breed, and fail to believe why the breed was developed for are the problem. The experienced pit bull owner knows the breed, what they are capable of and usually how to handle them. What many of the pet bull people do not realize is your first mistake with a pit bull may well be your last.

Please show where a real match dog has ever attacked a person. If you do your research you will see it was the gentle, people loving, animal loving, dog that is always the one who is in the papers.
I am not saying it doesn't happen but there are very few people who have a real match dog and those people are usually able to handle the dog and do not report an attact.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Fighting dogs? Disgusting. PERIOD.


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## MARYDVM (Jun 7, 2004)

If what was reported, is actually what happened, it seems strange that the family outside heard nothing. If the bite wounds were all head and neck, the owner must have been on the ground when bitten. Some dogs will attack another dog in the household if it has a seizure. The wild, uncontrolled movements may stimulate prey drive. Perhaps this owner had a seizure?

Most of the pit bulls I work on are excellent dogs. I'd much rather draw blood from the average pit, than from a Dalmation, Chow, Cocker, Chihuahua, or a number of other breeds(including today's Rottweilers, although I've owned at least 1 of that breed for the last 27 years) Of course there are some unstable ones, but you can usually spot the problem as they walk into the exam room - and the problem dogs usually come attached to a problem owner.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

MARYDVM said:


> If what was reported, is actually what happened, it seems strange that the family outside heard nothing. If the bite wounds were all head and neck, the owner must have been on the ground when bitten. Some dogs will attack another dog in the household if it has a seizure. The wild, uncontrolled movements may stimulate prey drive. Perhaps this owner had a seizure?
> 
> Most of the pit bulls I work on are excellent dogs. I'd much rather draw blood from the average pit, than from a Dalmation, Chow, Cocker, Chihuahua, or a number of other breeds(including today's Rottweilers, although I've owned at least 1 of that breed for the last 27 years) Of course there are some unstable ones, but you can usually spot the problem as they walk into the exam room - and the problem dogs usually come attached to a problem owner.


The most likely thing that could have happened is the dog attacked so sudden and with such power and aggressiveness that the person didn't have a chance to make a noise. When a pit bull attacts they do not make any noise. A dog making any noise in the pit is usually a sure sign that dog is a cur and will loose. There have been some that made a noise and still won but they are few.

The normal pit bull will have a very high tolerence to pain. That is part of the breeding. A needle is nothing compared to the punishemnt they have to take in a match.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ravenlost said:


> Fighting dogs? Disgusting. PERIOD.


At one time it was legal and much like a horse race of today. Much like greyhound racing. Times and people change and laws are made. It was never a sport for the weak hearted.


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## MARYDVM (Jun 7, 2004)

The dog might not make a noise, but the victim would. It was a nine year old pet dog, not a match dog.


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## farmmom (Jan 4, 2009)

Minelson said:


> That's what I was thinking. But then why would they have such trouble getting the dog off of her? And why did it take so many shots to kill the dog...very weird story. I think there is more to it.


I remember an incident from when I was a teen. An older man died in his trailer across the street from where I lived. He'd been dead 3 days when he was found. Animal control had to come in and secure a little Scottie dog that would not let the emergency personel anywhere near the body.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

pancho said:


> Please show where a real match dog has ever attacked a person.


Was the dog that attacked you a match dog? I assume that you took him out of the gene pool shortly after he attacked you.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

MARYDVM said:


> The dog might not make a noise, but the victim would. It was a nine year old pet dog, not a match dog.


The victim probably didn't get a chance to make a noise. A pit bull can attact and kill in seconds. If a person did not know the dog was going to attack and did not know what the dog was capable of doing it is easy to understand the lack of noise.
Many animals attacked by a pit bull never gert a chance to make a sound.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolf Flower said:


> Was the dog that attacked you a match dog? I assume that you took him out of the gene pool shortly after he attacked you.


No, he was not a match dog. He was a show dog. I had given him to my parents when he was 8 weeks old. He was a house dog raised around all kinds of people. They returned the dog when he turned one year old because he was too strong for them to handle.

No, I kept the dog for the rest of his life. I knew what he was capable of doing. He was matched a time or two after that attact. Never lost.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

MARYDVM said:


> If what was reported, is actually what happened, it seems strange that the family outside heard nothing. If the bite wounds were all head and neck, the owner must have been on the ground when bitten. Some dogs will attack another dog in the household if it has a seizure. The wild, uncontrolled movements may stimulate prey drive. Perhaps this owner had a seizure?
> 
> Most of the pit bulls I work on are excellent dogs. I'd much rather draw blood from the average pit, than from a Dalmation, Chow, Cocker, Chihuahua, or a number of other breeds(including today's Rottweilers, although I've owned at least 1 of that breed for the last 27 years) Of course there are some unstable ones, but you can usually spot the problem as they walk into the exam room - and the problem dogs usually come attached to a problem owner.


Great post! :clap:


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

MARYDVM said:


> I'd much rather draw blood from the average pit, than from a Dalmation, Chow, Cocker, Chihuahua, or a number of other breeds(including today's Rottweilers, although I've owned at least 1 of that breed for the last 27 years) Of course there are some unstable ones, but you can usually spot the problem as they walk into the exam room - and the problem dogs usually come attached to a problem owner.



I agree, and would add Shar Pei and GSD to the list - 2 more breeds that are quick to use their mouth to get a point across. The Shepherds are the ones that make me nervous since a lot of them have sharp/nervous temperaments...A lot of Chis, Pugs and Terriers go into a complete attack frenzy when you try to touch or trim their nails.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

Boy, you guys would love to come to my house, lol. Two chows and a sheperd!! I have owned chows my whole life and have never had any real aggression from any of them. The sheperd is a lover, plain and simple. So until recently, I was on the "boo hiss, no such thing as aggressive breed" kick (at one time, our lane had two rotties, a doberman, two chows and the sheperd running around, I used to joke about any poor fool that would come dwn the lane, but all the while knowing that these dogs were sweet). Until...

This is going to be a recap for some of you, but about a week ago, my FIL's goat hopped out of her pen and was on HIS property, munching grass and weeds in back of his house. One of my cousin-in-law's pitties JUMPED the 4 foot fence for no reason other than to run the goat into the ground and attack it. Mercifully, they were able to seperate the two. The goat is covered in lacs, practically lost an ear, and had her udder ripped wide open. This would be an isolated incident, right? Well last year, the goat had gotten out of her pen and was munching grass in her own yard, when the cousin-in-law's pit bull launched itself across the 4 foot fence and attacked it. The gaot at that time suffered severe damage to her snout and throat. Problem is, it was a different pit bull. In other words, this person owns two pit bulls and BOTH of them launched across the fence for the express purpose of killing a goat, at different times. I am no longer allowing my child over there to play, and am very wary of the breed where I never was before.

I am reluctant to have to begin to admit, there are reasons perhaps for the bad raps these dogs get. Trust me I hate to say that EVERYONE I talk to has a bad chow-chow experience, but there it is. Now I have to add myself as one who has a bad pittie experience. Ironically, even after the FIRST attack last year, I still swore the breed was maligned for no reason.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

farmmom said:


> I remember an incident from when I was a teen. An older man died in his trailer across the street from where I lived. He'd been dead 3 days when he was found. Animal control had to come in and secure a little Scottie dog that would not let the emergency personel anywhere near the body.


As ambulance personnel, I run into this a lot. One time was a loser who OD'd in his car, with his pittie by his side. Poor dog was BESERK, not letting us open the door, etc. His owner had been dead at least a day. We run into this a lot with patients, as well, who swear that "Little Muffie" wouldn't hurt a fly. But strangers coming into the house putting their hands on Mrs. Smith is more than the average dog can stand. I find this a noble and loyal reaction, and quite acceptable, and insist that "Muffie" gets put into another room. Delicate balance, proclaiming myself to be a dog lover, and cooing over how cute Muffi is, while insisting she gets put up!


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Most breeds of dogs will try and eat a goat. goats seems to have fudge sauce, sprinkles, whipped cream with a cherry on top to dogs.


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## jen74145 (Oct 31, 2006)

a) Pitt bulls are horrible, destroy them all
b) Pitts are like any other dog, just more idiots get them for the "tough" factor.

There. Entire thread, cliff notes.
Carry on.


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## Rockytopsis (Dec 29, 2007)

Minelson said:


> I think there is more to it.


I live here and I also think there is more to it that is being told.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

mothernature said:


> That's one breed that should be weeded out completely.


I completely agree. Aggression is bred into the entire breed. They need to be completely destroyed, or never bred and allowed to die out then banned from the nation as a whole.


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

tailwagging said:


> Most breeds of dogs will try and eat a goat. goats seems to have fudge sauce, sprinkles, whipped cream with a cherry on top to dogs.


OK, you just made me spit milk on my computer, lol.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

mekasmom said:


> I completely agree. Aggression is bred into the entire breed. They need to be completely destroyed, or never bred and allowed to die out then banned from the nation as a whole.


There will always be pit bulls. Most of the people who have the real pit bulls are a select group. They usually kep their dogs away from other people and animals.

It is the people who are trying to show the pit bull is just like any other dog that is the problem. The pit bull has been in the U.S. for several hundred years. It is only in the last 40 years we see pit bull attacks. That is the same time groups of pet bull people decided that there wasn't any difference in a pit bull and any other dog. They were wrong and the attacts started.

One of the first attacts that killed a person happened in west Texas. I knew the dog well.

As long as there are people who think they can change a trait bred into a select group of dogs by just treating the dog different there will be more attacts. When people decide to do their research on the breed before deciding on getting one there will be fewer attacks. Many people will refuse to do the research and not believe what they do read. These people are the reason there are attacks. 

The pit bull is a great dog but isn't a dog for everyone. Most people do not need such a dog. There is just too much room for accidents. In the case of the pit bull an accident can be deadly, it can happen in a second. It can be prevented.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

pancho said:


> As long as there are people who think they can change a trait bred into a select group of dogs by just treating the dog different there will be more attacks. When people decide to do their research on the breed before deciding on getting one there will be fewer attacks.


What do you think of fila? Would you consider them as dangerous as pits?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

mekasmom said:


> What do you think of fila? Would you consider them as dangerous as pits?


Just my opinion. They are another breed that needs a experienced owner. They are a large, strong, aggressive dog. Here in the U.S. they are becoming a popular dog. I wouldn't consider tham as dangerous as a pit for several different reasons. They have a look that warns people about them. The pit doesn't really have that look. Many people would not recognize a pit bull if they had to choose one in a lineup. A fila is easy to recognize.

Usually when a pit bull attacks something dies or is badly damaged. Filas are the same but there isn't that many of them around. There is also not that many supporters of filas trying to prove they are a common pet dog. Too many people judge all pit bulls by some dog they think was a pit bull.

Pit bulls were bred for a warrior. They are the best in the world. There isn't another breed of dog that can match them weight for weight. Not many that cam match they at 2-1 weights. There is hundreds of years of selective breeding going into the pit bull. All of those years of selective breeding has been for one thing. A dog that can dominate any other dog. That has been what they were bred for, how they were selected for breeding. Some people have decided to take those hundreds of years of selective breeding and change it all in one or two breedings. It isn't possible but that is the reason for all of the attacks.
Again, not a single attack from a match dog, hundreds of attacks from pet bulls. Should be enough for anyone to see the difference.


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## TJN66 (Aug 29, 2004)

pancho said:


> No, he was not a match dog. He was a show dog. I had given him to my parents when he was 8 weeks old. He was a house dog raised around all kinds of people. They returned the dog when he turned one year old because he was too strong for them to handle.
> 
> No, I kept the dog for the rest of his life. I knew what he was capable of doing. He was matched a time or two after that attact. Never lost.


Did I read that right? You used your dog to fight in matches a time or two and it never lost after it attacked you?


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## Maura (Jun 6, 2004)

About the goat being chased and bitten by pit bulls. Other dogs will do the same thing. I lost one beautiful lamb to a loose dog, not a pit or any kind of bull dog. Most dogs won't cross the electric fencing, but some are quick enough and smart enough to go between the wires. Lost the lamb one day when I'd put my donkeys on the other side of the house to mow the side yard.

The first Boston terrier we fostered was a sweet gentleman. Tolerant and patient with children and other dogs, great little dog. One day he got out of the house, easily jumped between the el wires and latched onto one of the ewes. I mean _latched_ on- they don't let go. So, here's my poor ewe running all over the pasture with this little black and white dog hanging from her face. When the sheep stopped from exhaustion I was able to get the dog off her face. Not pretty, but we aren't talking about banning Boston terriers. Bostons are a mix of a terrier and a couple of bull dogs. Even bred as a companion, that bully blood comes through at times.

And, what is called a pit bull could be one of several different breeds or mixes.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

TJN66 said:


> Did I read that right? You used your dog to fight in matches a time or two and it never lost after it attacked you?


Yes, you read that right.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Maura said:


> And, what is called a pit bull could be one of several different breeds or mixes.


There is only one pit bull. Not everyone can tell one from several other breeds but that does not change anything. There is only one pit bull. They have been called by other names but it is the same dog.

You can call a poodle a pit bull but that does not change the breed of the dog. It is still a poodle. No other breed has ever been known as a pit bull, no mix of breeds has ever been called a pit bull.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

> August 2010. On August 2, 2010, 2-year-old Aaron Carlson of San Diego, California, was mauled to death by his parents' German shepherd mix, in their home. California is a strict liability state.





> The same day, in Iron Ridge, Wisconsin, 4-year-old Taylor Bells was fatally assaulted by a boxer that was chained to a tree, at a home that the child was visiting. Wisconsin is a strict liability state.





> On February 18, 2010, 11-day old Robert D. Hocker of Independence, Minnesota, was killed in his car seat on a bed in the bedroom. The dog was a Siberian husky, belonging to his parents. Minnesota is a strict liability state.





> On March 8, 2010, 8-month-old Justin Josiah Big Soldier-Lopez was mauled to death by two Rottweilers that were given to his parents just days before. This happened on tribal land near Tryon, Oklahoma, which is a statutory strict liability state.





> July 2010. Three Americans have been killed by dogs so far this month. On July 12, 2010, 5-year-old Kyle Holland of Lincoln Park, Michigan, was killed by his parents' dogs. The boy was sleeping when the white Labrador mix and/or the husky and German shepherd mix mauled him to death. Michigan is a statutory strict liability state.


I usually don't even bother posting in these witch hunt threads any longer. The ignorance is too much. I say ban dog ownership and that would settle the dog attack problem. You can't ban one breed because another breed will replace it as the villain dog. 

After Ontario banned "pit bulls" they proposed to ban Labradors. See where the trend goes? Probably not, no one looks at the big picture. Ever hear of the Dog Holocaust in Germany? Doubtful. Yes, you want the government to tell you what type of dog to own! Keep living in your bubbles. Any dog owner who supports the destruction of a breed of dog is just plain ignorant.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

pancho said:


> At one time it was legal and much like a horse race of today. Much like greyhound racing. Times and people change and laws are made. It was never a sport for the weak hearted.


As far as I'm concerned it was never a sport, period.


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## LoneStrChic23 (Jul 30, 2010)

I am against ANY breed being banned. Things like this lead to Breed Specific Legislation and it bleeds over into other breeds.

I am personally not a pitbull fan, nothing about the breed appeals to me.Though I consider myself dog savvy, I also don't think I am the right owner/home for a pit. I also don't think it's a breed that should be as popular as it is because the majority of people who own pitbulls should not. 

Any dog can be aggressive, any dog can cause harm (be it provoked or seemingly unprovoked) People are the problem, not the specific breed of dog. I happen to put many owners of toy breeds on the same "bad list" as some pit owners for the simple fact they treat them like a toy/accessory and do not TRAIN or SOCIALIZE them. I can not tell you how many times I have had an issue when taking my past Dane (died of cancer 3 yrs ago) out to the park or Petsmart...lil terriers, poms, chis, pugs and weenie dogs would bite, jump up on, growl at MY dog and everyone would disregard it or think it was "cute" *gag* Though if my boy, who topped 190lbs even thought of acting in such a manner, people would have panicked just because of his size, when in actuality he was a much safer, reliable dog to be around than any of the lil' ones...

Many people choose a breed for it's looks or popularity when they should in fact be choosing a dog that fits their lifestyle and their abilities. 
On the statement of the pitbull attacking the goats, my mom had ND goats several years ago and a neighbors Pyr, hopped the fence and gutted them all for fun (didn't eat any of it). And this particular dog happened to live with livestock! I have been bit by a chow, several chis, cocker spaniels and went to the ER to get stitches as a kid thanks to a Golden....all dogs have the potential to be a menace, but who those who produce them and those who own them should be held accountable for the actions, not one specific breed. This is one of those issues that I see no way of solving. Even if a law was passed against pit ownership, those who own them and own them for the wrong reasons (stroking that "I'm the biggest, toughest" ego) would still breed them...Not to mention, the media really loves those pitbull attack stories. If they actually ran a story on every dog attack or bite that happened, no one would want dogs because I guarantee most breeds would be featured a time 2 for a bad deed... JMO

Best Wishes,
Crystal
http://noodlevilleadventures.blogspot.com


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ravenlost said:


> As far as I'm concerned it was never a sport, period.


Some people say the same thing about horse racing.


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## thaiblue12 (Feb 14, 2007)

Hmm greyhounds racing compare to dogs ripping each other apart? Not in my book. I had the misfortune of seeing tapes of dog fighting and it was cruel and down right disgusting. Poor dogs sit there wagging their tails at their owners when they can barley stand while the "owner" keeps trying to get him to fight. 
It is not a sport, it is people who like violence and blood lust. They are too cowardly to box, extreme fight, or anythng that would put them at risk or get them a bit bloody so they use innocent dogs.

Pit bulls are not the problem, the owners are. All the in-breeding, inexperienced idiots who want their dogs to chew up another dog is the problem. 
Any dog can hurt or kill a person especially those who are chained often and mistreated in other ways. I read a book a while back on fatal dog attacks and pits were not the number one killers. There was even a Pom in that book that had killed a baby. 

Irresponsible owners are the problem and not the breed of dog.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

> McMinn County Tennessee woman killed in pit bull attack
> WRCB TV ^ | 09/04/2010 | WRCB
> 
> Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2010 2:31:37 AM by The Magical Mischief Tour
> ...


So now that more facts have been released. It was not her BELOVED pet that killed her. I bolded the parts that are key to WHY the attack happened.


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

farmmom said:


> I remember an incident from when I was a teen. An older man died in his trailer across the street from where I lived. He'd been dead 3 days when he was found. Animal control had to come in and secure a little Scottie dog that would not let the emergency personel anywhere near the body.


I was wondering if it was something like that. Perhaps a loyalty/protective act on the part of the dog.
I agree that dog fighting is disgusting. Dogs that are trained to be mean and fight get a bad reputation when it is the owners who made them that way!!!


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## shanzone2001 (Dec 3, 2009)

pancho said:


> Some people say the same thing about horse racing.


Horses do not maul eachother and fight to kill. They are trained to run, not attack. HUGE difference!!!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

thaiblue12 said:


> Hmm greyhounds racing compare to dogs ripping each other apart? Not in my book. I had the misfortune of seeing tapes of dog fighting and it was cruel and down right disgusting. Poor dogs sit there wagging their tails at their owners when they can barley stand while the "owner" keeps trying to get him to fight.
> It is not a sport, it is people who like violence nad blood lust. They are too cowardly to box, extrmem fight so they use innocent dogs.
> 
> Pit bulls are not the problem, the owners are. All the in-breeding, inexperienced idiots who want their dogs to chew up another dog is the problem.
> ...


There are many more greyhounds killed each year than there ever were in the pits. Just take a look around any greyhound track. If you really want to look you will find areas where they dump the greyhounds killed. These dogs never had a chance, some just weren't fast and they died because of it.

You cannot make a pit bull fight if it don't want to. Just like you cannot make a greyhound run if they don't want to. 

There are many blood sports. Some consider horse racing, dog racing, boxing, extreme fighting, and football to be blood sports.

Many people are into dog fighting for the money. There is a great amount of money to be made or lost.

Chaining or mistreating a dog does not make it a good fighting dog. That has little to do with why a dog fights. Chaining, mistreating, or any other damage done to a dog will not make it any more likely to win a fight. Just the opposite, it will make it loose a fight.

Irresponsible owners is the problem. Especially those who think they can change the inborn traits of a dog just by treating it differently.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

shanzone2001 said:


> I was wondering if it was something like that. Perhaps a loyalty/protective act on the part of the dog.
> I agree that dog fighting is disgusting. Dogs that are trained to be mean and fight get a bad reputation when it is the owners who made them that way!!!


Dogs, even the pit bull, cannot be trained to fight. There is no training a dog to fight. It is either game or a cur. 
Dogs can be trained to be mean, any breed.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

shanzone2001 said:


> Horses do not maul eachother and fight to kill. They are trained to run, not attack. HUGE difference!!!


Check into the number of horses killed each year that fail at racing. Check the number of horses killed each year that are successful at racing. Dead is dead. If a horse is slaughtered because it is slow he doesn't feel any different than a dog killed in a fight. If a horse is put down because he broke a leg in a race he is just as dead.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

pancho said:


> Some people say the same thing about horse racing.


Yep, me included.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

thaiblue12 said:


> Hmm greyhounds racing compare to dogs ripping each other apart? Not in my book. I had the misfortune of seeing tapes of dog fighting and it was cruel and down right disgusting. Poor dogs sit there wagging their tails at their owners when they can barley stand while the "owner" keeps trying to get him to fight.
> It is not a sport, it is people who like violence and blood lust. They are too cowardly to box, extreme fight, or anythng that would put them at risk or get them a bit bloody so they use innocent dogs.
> 
> Pit bulls are not the problem, the owners are. All the in-breeding, inexperienced idiots who want their dogs to chew up another dog is the problem.
> ...


Well said! I agree completely!


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## SageLady (Jun 10, 2008)

The town I live in has banned pitbulls. They are simply not allowed to be here anymore. This after some pretty severe attacks, one leaving a man in horrible condition for the rest of his life.

Dogfighting is NOT a sport. It is a sick and wicked game for people that thrive on seeing a poor dog mauled and bloodied, possibly killed. It's a game for sick people with sick minds. JMOHO.


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## TJN66 (Aug 29, 2004)

pancho said:


> Yes, you read that right.


You just lost all credibility with me about pits.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

> Family members say they believe noise from construction work to the roof is what caused the dog to become aggressive enough to attack.


Feel free to beat on my roof until your arms fall off, my dogs won't attack me and kill me because of it.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

when it comes to any breed please remember 50% of temperament is genetic.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

TJN66 said:


> You just lost all credibility with me about pits.


I wasn't worried about any credibility with you.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

> Ed Norman Ed Norman is offline
> 
> Join Date: Jun 2002
> 
> ...


Did the dog attack its owner? No, try rereading the story AGAIN. The dog attacked what was basically a stranger to the dog. This person because of their age would also be showing obvious weakness and be a easy opponent. The said dog was used to being outside, not confined indoors. I would venture to guess that the dog lived on a chain its whole life and had little interaction with people. You take this dog and confine it to a space and start pounding on things, its going to get agitated and defensive of its space. Why do you think so many dogs are kennel aggressive with strangers? Aggressive while in the car? Aggressive when in the house? Yet, as soon as you remove them from their confined space they change their attitude. Its easier to just blame the dog and the breed then to look at the dynamics of the situation it was put into. I guarantee you I could come over to your house start pounding on it, walk in and get your dogs to attack me.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Maura said:


> The first Boston terrier we fostered was a sweet gentleman. Tolerant and patient with children and other dogs, great little dog. One day he got out of the house, easily jumped between the el wires and latched onto one of the ewes. I mean _latched_ on- they don't let go. So, here's my poor ewe running all over the pasture with this little black and white dog hanging from her face. When the sheep stopped from exhaustion I was able to get the dog off her face. Not pretty, but we aren't talking about banning Boston terriers. Bostons are a mix of a terrier and a couple of bull dogs. Even bred as a companion, that bully blood comes through at times.


The pet lines and show lines in Bostons are almost like seperate breeds. All of my BTs from 100% show lines are for the most part very soft and sweet. In pet lines, you still see a lot of gameness and high strung dogs. I do have one girl who loves to spar with other dogs and will escalate things till they get out of control if challenged - like a terrier. There are certain show lines known for being dog aggressive, but it's not the norm, especially in my region.

Anyhoo, it is nice hearing from someone who has actually been ivolved with Pits on a deeper level. So much of the info we are fed comes through the media, from show breeders, or women who run Pit rescues. It's not very often we have the chance to hear real first-hand info from someone like Pancho who has actual working knowledge of the breed...It certainly has helped me see things from a broader perspective...


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Haven said:


> The pet lines and show lines in Bostons are almost like seperate breeds. All of my BTs from 100% show lines are for the most part very soft and sweet. In pet lines, you still see a lot of gameness and high strung dogs. I do have one girl who loves to spar with other dogs and will escalate things till they get out of control if challenged - like a terrier. There are certain show lines known for being dog aggressive, but it's not the norm, especially in my region.
> 
> Anyhoo, it is nice hearing from someone who has actually been ivolved with Pits on a deeper level. So much of the info we are fed comes through the media, from show breeders, or women who run Pit rescues. It's not very often we have the chance to hear real first-hand info from someone like Pancho who has actual working knowledge of the breed...It certainly has helped me see things from a broader perspective...


Thank you for reading. I have been involved with pit bulls for over 50 years.
At this time I do not own one and do not plan on ever having another.

Up untill the middle 1970's the pit bull was a different dog than you see today.
That all changed and by the 1980's the breed began to have a bad reputation. Many of the people I knew back then, even some who are still dog judges today, are beginning to back away from the breed. I have 2 friends who continue to judge dog shows but will not raise any more pit bulls.
One is a very famous pit bull breeder, the other was a very highly regarded weight puller. My cousin wrote and published a book on the pit bull history and was planning on doing another. The last time I talked to him and returned some of his old books he said he would not be publishing another book.

There has just been too much happen to the breed that we all loved.
The looks have changed quite a bit. Nowdays many of the breed are crossed with other breeds. This has caused an increase in the size of the dog and has increased the likelyhood of a pit bull attacking a person.
Many people think the pit bull is the short wide dog with a spiked collar you see dragging a person down the street. This is not a pit bull.
There are several different bloodlines that are getting to be well known who are crosses with other breeds. The large blue dogs, the gotti bloodline, new watchdog and such are not pit bulls.

As time goes by the modern day pit bull will loose all backing from the majority of the original owners. The owners whose familys imported the dog from Ireland and England. The people who tried to keep the blood pure. The people who for several hundres years kept the pit bull out of the newspapers. People who took care of their dogs and didn't allow them to attack other people.

It has already just about over. The pit bull owner has changed quite a bit in the last 40 years. Now the normal owner is usually young kids who know nothing about the history of the breed. Gone are the people who knew bloodlines and dogs. They were replaced with a younger set that never learned the history of the dog, have no use for the traits of the breed, and who will cause what owners that are left to go underground.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

pancho said:


> There has just been too much happen to the breed that we all loved.
> The looks have changed quite a bit. Nowdays many of the breed are crossed with other breeds. This has caused an increase in the size of the dog and has increased the likelyhood of a pit bull attacking a person.


The "bandogs" people create by crossing pits with human-aggressive mastiff type breeds seems like a very bad idea.

This might be sort of off topic, but I have a question about gameness and dog-aggression in pits (which you explained to me, is not necessarily the same thing). 

Did you ever see a fight-crazy dog get into the pit, get beaten, and then refuse to fight again? I am curious, in a rhetorical sense, if a dog-aggressive cur would have been "cured" of DA by getting the tar beat out of him so badly that he learned to avoid fighting. Conventional wisdom would lead me to think it would make him fear-aggressive, but of course it isn't legal or ethical to test this. 

What interests me is what makes a dog NOT want to fight. I figure if anyone would know that, it would be the old dog-men.


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## TJN66 (Aug 29, 2004)

pancho said:


> I wasn't worried about any credibility with you.


I'm sure that you werent worried about it with me. But that just goes to show that you really dont care about pits. If you did you would care about credibility with ANYONE. 

Now when I listen to you speak on them is it with a jaded ear on how you not only bred them but also used them to fight. Great owner/breeder there for someone that cares so much about the breed.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

pancho said:


> .... The owners whose familys imported the dog from Ireland and England. The people who tried to keep the blood pure. The people who for several hundres years kept the pit bull out of the newspapers. People who took care of their dogs and didn't allow them to attack other people.
> 
> It has already just about over. The pit bull owner has changed quite a bit in the last 40 years. Now the normal owner is usually young kids who know nothing about the history of the breed. Gone are the people who knew bloodlines and dogs. They were replaced with a younger set that never learned the history of the dog, have no use for the traits of the breed, and who will cause what owners that are left to go underground.


That is sad to me, but then again I tend to get sentimental over breed history...

I have seen a lot of videos on youtube placed there by the people who have ruined the breed. Gold chains, rap music, images of their dogs mating while the owners flash gang symbols in the backround. Most of them are obvious English Bulldog crosses and most vids end with text on the screen announcing a litter of puppies priced at 2k per pup. I guess the people who buy these dogs are emulating the rap stars and pro athletes that are using the dogs as an extension of their own egos in all of their tv videos...


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## beccachow (Nov 8, 2008)

tailwagging said:


> when it comes to any breed please remember 50% of temperament is genetic.


This is a true statement. A reputable breeder will cull an aggressive puppy of any breed.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

TJN66 said:


> I'm sure that you werent worried about it with me. But that just goes to show that you really dont care about pits. If you did you would care about credibility with ANYONE.
> 
> Now when I listen to you speak on them is it with a jaded ear on how you not only bred them but also used them to fight. Great owner/breeder there for someone that cares so much about the breed.


As much as you despise dogfighting, as do I, you have to respect Pancho, as he has more knowledge about the breed than pretty much anyone else who would dare talk to us about it. As he's said several times, he no longer owns, breeds, shows, or judges pit bulls and had gotten out of fighting when it became illegal.

Like it or not, pit bulls were developed as a fighting animal; that is the breed's heritage, and to turn a deaf ear to those who were involved with it is to stick one's head in the sand. You don't have to like what was done, but there is an immense amount of knowledge that we ought to listen to and learn from.

I appreciate Pacho's honesty and candor, and the pit bull's history is fascinating to me. As much as you and I think dogfighting is cruel, it is what forged the character of a breed, and from a behavioral standpoint I find it fascinating. I am sure Pancho's old buddies (as well as modern pit bull lovers) don't like him telling the truth about the pit bull to the general public, but I am grateful that he does.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolf Flower said:


> The "bandogs" people create by crossing pits with human-aggressive mastiff type breeds seems like a very bad idea.
> 
> This might be sort of off topic, but I have a question about gameness and dog-aggression in pits (which you explained to me, is not necessarily the same thing).
> 
> ...


What usually happens with a fight crazy cur they will fight as long as they are winning. If they begin to loose they will quit, also will usually quit if the match last very long. It usually doesn't make much difference in the dog afterwards. After a little rest they will usually be the same as before, fight crazy. There were many of these dogs matched in the old days. As long as they were winning they were great dogs. When they met a better dog they quit but were ready again for the next dog.
It is a dangerous thing to do as a good game dog may kill the fight crazy dog before he knows he is beat.

Really the majority of pit bulls will not fight. Well they will fight but the vast majority are not game. The game dog is very rare. That is one thing that makes the crossbred dog even more dangerous than the real pit bull, when it comes to people. A real pit bull you can usually tell what they will do. A crossbred dog will be more likely to attack a family member.

Many of the old match dogs could be around other dogs but when put in the pit would try their best to kill any other dog. I had one champion that would not even look at another breed of dog. He seemed to think they were way below him. That changed when he got to be an older dog.

What another poster said about the game dog is partial true. Most would not harm a person at all. There were still plenty that would do to a person the same as they would do to another dog. There was a well know match which pitted a game pit bull against a human boxer. It might surprise many, the boxer defeated the dog.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Haven said:


> That is sad to me, but then again I tend to get sentimental over breed history...
> 
> I have seen a lot of videos on youtube placed there by the people who have ruined the breed. Gold chains, rap music, images of their dogs mating while the owners flash gang symbols in the backround. Most of them are obvious English Bulldog crosses and most vids end with text on the screen announcing a litter of puppies priced at 2k per pup. I guess the people who buy these dogs are emulating the rap stars and pro athletes that are using the dogs as an extension of their own egos in all of their tv videos...


That is embarrasing to a breed of dogs that held such a high place in the history of dogs. Many people think those type dogs are really pit bulls. That is why most pounds will kill all pit bulls they get. No one who has researched the breed at all would even look at these dogs.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

beccachow said:


> This is a true statement. A reputable breeder will cull an aggressive puppy of any breed.


The thing most people do not understand, the pit bull was developed by doing just the opposite. Pit bulls are supposed to be an aggressive dog. They were bred for that for hundreds of years. That is why the aggressiveness can not be bred out of them in just a few matings. There will always be a throw back. It is impossible to tell by looking which pup that might be. Two gentle cur dogs might have a litter of equally cur puppies but there might be one in the bunch that is more game than either of the parents.
Most people never know until it is too late. Someone or something will have to pay for their mistake.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

I used to breed registered pits for hog catching. Gave up my dogs after I had 3 pups stolen for dog fighting by illegal Mexicans when my American Bulldog was indoors for 5 mins getting a nail trim. I got payback though. Tracked down the little 8 year old boy who had stolen my pups and sold them without papers for $500 each! Called the cops on them. You hadn't ever seen people move so fast when I told them I had called the cops. They moved out and never did move back in. Never had problems with my pit bulls. Had more problems with my bay dogs (dogs trained to track down hogs and contain them while waiting for me to arrive with the catch dogs)...bay dogs are cur dog breeds who can be quarrelsome..they have to be in order to have the guts to pick a fight with a mad feral hog or cow.

The town I live in has limited pit bulls to two per household and the dogs have to be spayed/neutered and microchipped and UTD on shots due to gang bangers fighting the dogs in bad parts of town then shooting or leaving the dying dogs in the city parks for the cops to find and have to shoot them or shoot them when the dog charges. Rather sad.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

I think the people who can't get past the dog fighting part if pancho's past could learn a lot if they did and were actually reading his posts.

The only reason people have such a distaste for dog fighting is because we have humanized dogs and the media has taught us how to react to it.

We are okay with our dogs killing other animals, from bird dogs, **** hounds, hog dogs, livestock guardians dogs. etc, its all okay if they maul, dismember and kill another animal. If a dog fights another dog people relate to it almost the same as a human assaulting another human or even murder. Now if a Great Pyrenees were to kill a coyote everyone would be jumping up and down praising the pyr for doing its job. The coyote is another type of dog, just not one we keep as a pet and turned into a furry human. For certain it didn't want to fight the LGD and get killed. I don't see the same people protesting for coyotes. Dogs are not human and just because a dog fights with other dogs does not make it anymore likely to attack a human then a dog who catches hogs, raccoon, coyotes, fox, badger, whatever else. 

Some of the stuff I read on this forum about killing raccoons and other animals is so inhumane its beyond belief, yet that is okay because they have not been humanized or made into pets. Oh the double standards.

Dog fighting today is totally different from the past and a lot of the current trends were started by animal activist groups themselves. They started distributing lies about the "sport" and that is were most of the current fighters today got their information on how to "train" a fighting dog. I can assure you with out knowing pancho that when he was involved in it he never used bait animals and half of these other "new age" training techniques. Bait animals do not train a dog to fight, but that is what all the Humane societies literature will tell you and that is what urban dog fighters today believe. They learned how to dog fight from the junk that was published. By creating fear that your dog is going to get stolen and fed to a pit bull they can generate lots of money to stop dog fighting. None of that money will ever go towards stopping dog fighting, people made PETA and The Humane Society of US richer though. The stuff about beating, starving, feeding the dogs gun powder to make a meaner pit is all propaganda from the same activist groups. Beating a dog does not make it fight and starving one is going to give its opponent an advantage. The wanna be fighters read the literature out there from these groups, and this is the stuff becoming the norm in some areas.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolf Flower said:


> As much as you despise dogfighting, as do I, you have to respect Pancho, as he has more knowledge about the breed than pretty much anyone else who would dare talk to us about it. As he's said several times, he no longer owns, breeds, shows, or judges pit bulls and had gotten out of fighting when it became illegal.
> 
> Like it or not, pit bulls were developed as a fighting animal; that is the breed's heritage, and to turn a deaf ear to those who were involved with it is to stick one's head in the sand. You don't have to like what was done, but there is an immense amount of knowledge that we ought to listen to and learn from.
> 
> I appreciate Pacho's honesty and candor, and the pit bull's history is fascinating to me. As much as you and I think dogfighting is cruel, it is what forged the character of a breed, and from a behavioral standpoint I find it fascinating. I am sure Pancho's old buddies (as well as modern pit bull lovers) don't like him telling the truth about the pit bull to the general public, but I am grateful that he does.


I will agree with the majority of people. Dog fighting is a cruel sport. Especially they way it is done today. Many of those who match dogs on the street get most of their information about matching dogs from Peta. Peta puts out a step by step how to booklet on how to fight a pit bull. It is all crap but those who know little about the breed have no other people to go to. None of the old dog men would touch them with a 10ft pole. None of them would allow those people even close to their house or their dog. 

There was dog fighting in the U.S. before the pit bull was imported. In those days many police depts, had their own match dog. The Irish were the first to bring their dogs over. Sometimes one small 25lb. dog would support a large family.

When the pit bull was imported they stopped the local dog matching. There was no competition.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JasoninMN said:


> I think the people who can't get past the dog fighting part if pancho's past could learn a lot if they did and were actually reading his posts.
> 
> The only reason people have such a distaste for dog fighting is because we have humanized dogs and the media has taught us how to react to it.
> 
> ...


That is a very true post.

Back years ago anyone who tried what is common place today would not be allowed around pit bulls. There were some of the same back then but not as many as today and the majority of pit bull owners would not sell them a dog. They usually had to steal a dog to get one.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

What might come as a surprise to many. One of the best know dog conditioner, handeler, and breeder of match bred pit bulls in the history of pit bulls, still a judge, now runs a dog rescue.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

JasoninMN said:


> ...The only reason people have such a distaste for dog fighting is because we have humanized dogs and the media has taught us how to react to it.
> 
> We are okay with our dogs killing other animals, from bird dogs, **** hounds, hog dogs, livestock guardians dogs. etc, its all okay if they maul, dismember and kill another animal. If a dog fights another dog people relate to it almost the same as a human assaulting another human or even murder.


Please don't lump me in your generalization Jason. I despise blood sport of ANY kind...chickens, dogs, people, etc. I even find boxing to be a very disgusting sport. 

The death of ANY animal (man included) disturbs me. I can't even cut up the fish we catch to feed our ducks. It brings me to tears if one of my dogs kills another animal, although I can't hold it against the dog as that is the dog's nature. BUT, I would NEVER purposely use one of my dogs to kill another creature unless that creature was putting one of us (my family or my dogs/cats/chickens/etc.) in danger.

I am NOT a member of PETA or the Humane Society as I don't agree with their tactics and profiteering. I recognize and understand the cycle of life, but in my heart I can not accept cruelty for entertainment's sake. I never will, I don't care who or what is involved.


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## Minelson (Oct 16, 2007)

Ravenlost said:


> Please don't lump me in your generalization Jason. *I despise blood sport of ANY kind...chickens, dogs, people, etc. I even find boxing to be a very disgusting sport. *
> 
> The death of ANY animal (man included) disturbs me. I can't even cut up the fish we catch to feed our ducks. It brings me to tears if one of my dogs kills another animal, although I can't hold it against the dog as that is the dog's nature. *BUT, I would NEVER purposely use one of my dogs to kill another creature unless that creature was putting one of us (my family or my dogs/cats/chickens/etc.) in danger.*
> 
> *I am NOT a member of PETA or the Humane Society as I don't agree with their tactics and profiteering. I recognize and understand the cycle of life, but in my heart I can not accept cruelty for entertainment's sake. I never will, I don't care who or what is involved.*


I bolded the comments that rang so very true to me and how I am. I don't even like football! I just don't get any of it. 

Great post Ravenlost :goodjob:


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## TJN66 (Aug 29, 2004)

Ravenlost said:


> Please don't lump me in your generalization Jason. I despise blood sport of ANY kind...chickens, dogs, people, etc. I even find boxing to be a very disgusting sport.
> 
> The death of ANY animal (man included) disturbs me. I can't even cut up the fish we catch to feed our ducks. It brings me to tears if one of my dogs kills another animal, although I can't hold it against the dog as that is the dog's nature. BUT, I would NEVER purposely use one of my dogs to kill another creature unless that creature was putting one of us (my family or my dogs/cats/chickens/etc.) in danger.
> 
> I am NOT a member of PETA or the Humane Society as I don't agree with their tactics and profiteering. I recognize and understand the cycle of life, but in my heart I can not accept cruelty for entertainment's sake. I never will, I don't care who or what is involved.


Exactly...cruelty for entertainment is in no way acceptable for me. Be it any type of animal or person. There are by far, too many other ways of being entertained than seeing two dogs maim, hurt or possibly kill each other for "sport". I also dont agree with bullfighting, cock fighting, bear bating...you get the idea. Its cruel. If you are going to kill something make it as quick and humane as possible. (I dont believe in peta nor the ridiculous propoganda they put out either.)

Now I am sure Pancho has more knowledge than I regarding pits...I never disputed that fact. I am just saying that now, I will be reading everything differently knowing his background. How can I not?


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-83402512.html

Sorry, but I just dont trust pomeranians.
I love dogs and I know there is always a possibility for any dog to attack. But pomeranians are just to squirrelly for a baby to fight off. It certainly looks to be the case for this baby and her parents' loyal dog.



-----

Ahem.

Any dog can kill.


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## littlejoe (Jan 17, 2007)

I've kind of avoided the pet forum, like I learned to avoid the equine forum. Too many on there regard horses as pets, and if you've ever seen one coming at you like an alligator, you'll know they're not ever gonna be a pet, regardless of everyone's analization. You might come to be a partner, but only if you can show leadership.

It was just the heading that caught my eye as I was glancing through.

I've never claimed to be a dog man, or a horseman. I've got way too much to learn. But I do like to listen to others who have spent enough time around them to develop knowledge. And from what I've read from doing a quick read through this thread, Pancho has a thorough knowledge of a dogs understanding!

I've had a few dogs, most of them stock dogs, who had hard lives from thier very breeding. Just like horses, they are all bred for different purposes. And within each type there are different personalities. Heelers, red and blue, aussies, curs, and even a couple of pitts. Some are bred to run, catch, head, heal, fight, buck, some were even smart enough they would've cooked breakfast if they could?

It's how you handle these personalities that brings you out as a "trainer". which I'm not!

I think the man understands what he's talking about? 'Course I'm dumber than a bucket of rocks.



TJN66 said:


> I'm sure that you werent worried about it with me. But that just goes to show that you really dont care about pits. If you did you would care about credibility with ANYONE.
> 
> Now when I listen to you speak on them is it with a jaded ear on how you not only bred them but also used them to fight. Great owner/breeder there for someone that cares so much about the breed.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

JasoninMN said:


> I guarantee you I could come over to your house start pounding on it, walk in and get your dogs to attack me.


Do all that and the dogs will have to wait in line behind me.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

So pancho used to breed dogs for fighting. Doesn't change my opinion of him. Dog fighting used to be a common and popular sport. A lot of things used to be common and popular but are now considered brutal and horrible. Boxing used to be popular, not so much now. Dogs would not be what they are today if people hadn't at one point in their history bred them for fighting.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

the only thing i have found Pancho incorrect on is the racing greyhound industry. 20 years ago he would have been spot on. since then they have gotten involved w/ many of the recue organizations that popped up. now 85% are adopted out through these rescue groups. about 1-2% retire to their owner or trainers homes as pets. about 8-9% are retained as breeding stock. the remaining 5% have a variety of outcomes including blood donors for vets, medical research, sold to hunters for breeding lurchers or adding speed to hunting greys AND lastly put down for temperament or health or just because they have no where else to send them. adoptions are probably down in the current economy and so culling is probably up but the numbers shouldn't be too far off.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Pops2 said:


> the only thing i have found Pancho incorrect on is the racing greyhound industry. 20 years ago he would have been spot on. since then they have gotten involved w/ many of the recue organizations that popped up. now 85% are adopted out through these rescue groups. about 1-2% retire to their owner or trainers homes as pets. about 8-9% are retained as breeding stock. the remaining 5% have a variety of outcomes including blood donors for vets, medical research, sold to hunters for breeding lurchers or adding speed to hunting greys AND lastly put down for temperament or health or just because they have no where else to send them. adoptions are probably down in the current economy and so culling is probably up but the numbers shouldn't be too far off.


It has been many years since I had anything to do with dog racing. Do have a friend who belongs to a retired racing greyhound group. Over the years he has adopted probably 2 dozen retired racers. They don't live very long. He keeps 4 at a time. Some will live4-6 years after retiring and some will live a year. His have all been prone to disease. He spends more on his dogs than I make in a year.

To everyone else I would like to apologize for posting what I have. I know it has bothered some very much. It is all the truth and part of the history of the pit bull. Some will try to change the history to make it look better and some will change it to look worse. I have just told my experience with the dogs. I wasn't asking for anyone to agree or disagree. It is all history now.

Some will look only at my experience with match dogs, had champions and grand champions. That is only a small part of the pit bull. I also raised and trained catch dogs and predator control dogs. Raised, trained, and showed conformation show dogs, several champions. Tried weight pulling for a while but wasn't really interested in it even thought the dogs could pull amazing amounts of weight. Also trained obedience dogs and put on many demonstrations of obedience trained pit bulls. When I first started in this people thought I was crazy when I took the collar off my dog before doing the obedience show. This was at a time when the first pit bull attacts began. Also raised and trained personal protection dogs. Had just about the only dog welcomed into Neiman Marcus in Dallas.
Last, I was a judge for a time before becoming rather disgusted with what I was seeing done to the breed. Did research for cousin when he wrote his book.

I have had a history with the breed. It was the first dog I saw when I was born. Now I will never own another one. I wasn't always right nor was I always wrong. One thing I can do. I can be as true to the breed as they have always been to me. I will tell the truth as I know it.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

pancho said:


> I wasn't worried about any credibility with you.


I love this answer--
sincere
straight
honest
wise
to the point and short! 
I just love that answer, it's perfect.


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## StBernardLove (Aug 20, 2010)

pancho said:


> There will always be pit bulls. Most of the people who have the real pit bulls are a select group. They usually kep their dogs away from other people and animals.
> 
> It is the people who are trying to show the pit bull is just like any other dog that is the problem. The pit bull has been in the U.S. for several hundred years. It is only in the last 40 years we see pit bull attacks. That is the same time groups of pet bull people decided that there wasn't any difference in a pit bull and any other dog. They were wrong and the attacts started.
> 
> ...


Amen pancho. Amen.

You can't love out or train out a trait that's been bred into a breed for over 100 years. Ever try stopping a lab from retrieving, a border collie from herding, or a beagle from hunting? It's the same concept.



pancho said:


> Just my opinion. They are another breed that needs a experienced owner. They are a large, strong, aggressive dog. Here in the U.S. they are becoming a popular dog. I wouldn't consider tham as dangerous as a pit for several different reasons. They have a look that warns people about them. The pit doesn't really have that look. Many people would not recognize a pit bull if they had to choose one in a lineup. A fila is easy to recognize.
> 
> Usually when a pit bull attacks something dies or is badly damaged. Filas are the same but there isn't that many of them around. There is also not that many supporters of filas trying to prove they are a common pet dog. Too many people judge all pit bulls by some dog they think was a pit bull.
> 
> ...


Again, amen. APBTs are the gladiators of the dog world.



pancho said:


> There is only one pit bull. Not everyone can tell one from several other breeds but that does not change anything. There is only one pit bull. They have been called by other names but it is the same dog.
> 
> You can call a poodle a pit bull but that does not change the breed of the dog. It is still a poodle. No other breed has ever been known as a pit bull, no mix of breeds has ever been called a pit bull.


Unfortunately this is only really known to APBT owners and fanciers. People get very confused when I call Lucy an American Pit Bull Terrier. Because of how many dogs are mislabeled "pit bulls", I call her what she is. Geez, I had some lady call my pure bred Rottweiler a pit bull mix. I mean really? Clearly he's a Rottweiler.



JasoninMN said:


> I usually don't even bother posting in these witch hunt threads any longer. The ignorance is too much. I say ban dog ownership and that would settle the dog attack problem. You can't ban one breed because another breed will replace it as the villain dog.
> 
> After Ontario banned "pit bulls" they proposed to ban Labradors. See where the trend goes? Probably not, no one looks at the big picture. Ever hear of the Dog Holocaust in Germany? Doubtful. Yes, you want the government to tell you what type of dog to own! Keep living in your bubbles. Any dog owner who supports the destruction of a breed of dog is just plain ignorant.


Another amen. The government is taking far too much control over our lives. If BSL ever comes to my area, I'm out of here. If you don't want my dogs, you don't want my money either. Ban idiots and irresponsible owners, not dogs. But if they banned idiots and stupid owners, half this country would be wiped out in a week. Then again that might not be a bad thing.



shanzone2001 said:


> Horses do not maul eachother and fight to kill. They are trained to run, not attack. HUGE difference!!!


Actually in China they fight horses. Horses are bred to run, but can be trained to attack.


All I can say is, not everyone should have these dogs. I wish the dog men were still the only ones to have them. And yes, I would still have my girl, as I'm very close with an old dog man. And for those of you who feel someone who once fought these dogs has no credibility, well those are the only people who truly know and understand these dogs, and know how to properly contain and handle them. And a good dog man also knows about as much in terms of fight after care for dogs as a vet does. It's just that today we have a bunch of morons running around fighting every dog they get their hands on after reading a bunch of stupid crud from HSUS (the organization that got the "bait dog/animal" myth going). 

Now, as a responsible APBT owner, first I have to wonder, why does an 85 year old woman own such a strong high drive dog? I love the breed, but I would strongly advise against my grandma having one, regardless of her health and physical capability. I wouldn't even leave a large dog on her property, or ask her to watch one of my dogs while I'm out of town.

And for those of you with bad "pit bull" farm experiences. They're terriers. They have a prey drive. Same as Jack Russells, but stronger. The last time my girl saw a horse, she wanted to kill it. She'd do the same with any animal that's not inside my house or an animal she's never seen before. But I know to keep my dog under my control at all times, with either a leash, a fence, and ever constant vigilance. Sadly many pit bull owners are not responsible, and definitely don't do their research before getting one. I've taken my girl to farms, but I will NEVER take her leash off her. I even keep two on her, one attached to her prong collar, and one attached to her everyday collar in case of an equipment malfunction.

And yes, my girl would kill an animal in a heartbeat, or at least try. But she's amazing with kids. She loves them. I would never leave a child alone with her, or any breed of dog for that matter, but that's common sense.

Many of the old pit dogs were man biters, but they also had handlers who knew how to deal with them, and once they bit, they were treated as beasts (meaning no attempts for owner on dog interaction, food, water, conditioning). Bullyson bit his owner once, owner responded by hitting him upside the head with a shovel, went to touch the dog again, and Bullyson got the picture, and went on to father many litters. Or the dogs bit out of excitement and frustration before a fight started (they knew as soon as they got into their cage or whatever they were transported in what was about to happen).

That being said, if I ever own an APBT that bites a human, unless they're guarding me or my property, I'll be taking them out back and shooting them myself. Same for any dog I own regardless of breed. I don't feed man biters, and I never will. I don't care if the dog poops gold. I wish more people were of that school of thought.

You may not like the breed, but to support their destruction and banning will just mean down the road YOUR breed of choice can be banned, and you have supported in others losing their freedom. Support responsible ownership rather than bans.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Pancho
people that can't accept history for what it is and get all but hurt about it are the same kind of dillweeds that get all bent over hindu & native american swastikas. screw them their opinions aren't worth squat because they choose to wallow in fear & ignorance.

about the greys
that is unusual most sighthounds are longlived. i know a fella in OH that got a 6 YO retired gyp & bred lurchers from her. she is not only alive but likes to hunt w/ some of her offspring (although he doesn't take her much because of the thin skin on hotbloods). this is consistant w/ what i know of longdogs. the main breeds w/ short lifespans & serious health issues are Irish Wolfhound (which is only logical since it is essentially a wirehaired dane) & the scottish deerhound. while IW will typically live 4-6 years the deerhound will commonly go to 15, IF they dodge the bone cancer & heart problem bullets that get about half the breed by age 10.
Do you happen to know if he consistantly got dogs from the same line?


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

stbernardlove
unfortunately commonsense is not a common virtue


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Great post StB.

There are a lot of other dogs/breeds that should never be placed in pet homes imo. One example would be dogs who are heavily bred out of the competitive protection sports.

My old male Dobe was a 100% protection bred import with drive through the roof. I cannot tell you how TRYING it is to raise a dog like this in a home setting. He was an amazing dog, but to give an example of prey drive-he would blow through our invis fence with his shock collar set on the highest level and keep on trucking after a deer like nothing hit him.

This is a professional version of the fence installed by a SCH trainer, and the collar had continual shocks that would keep hitting him for 10 seconds after he crossed the line...My other dogs would do a flip in mid-air and get knocked on their grits on less than 1/2 that setting.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

You know, I just have to say, I am quite impressed that we have had a working dog thread, a puppy mill/breeder thread and now a pit bull thread that never got locked on this forum. That is very impressive for a online forum of any sorts! It really is nice this thread for the most part stayed pretty civil despite the different views.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Pops2 said:


> Pancho
> people that can't accept history for what it is and get all but hurt about it are the same kind of dillweeds that get all bent over hindu & native american swastikas. screw them their opinions aren't worth squat because they choose to wallow in fear & ignorance.
> 
> about the greys
> ...


Pops, now that you mentioned it the man with the retired greys did have many from the same bloodline. He fell in love with his first retired grey and traveled all over the U.S. picking up any that were related to her. He had her sister and several pups out of her. Cancer seemed to run in the bloodline.

I have always wanted an irish wolfhound. The only thing that has stopped me is the short life span.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

I want to ask a question about everyday life and living with neighbors with pits. How do you protect yourself and your own pets from them? Animal control comes out repeatedly for complaints about the people down the road from me and other people. They had 7 pits and pit mixes who "get loose" on a weekly basis. I think they have 4 now because they got rid of a few of them.

Will My Great Pyrs be able to protect the goats from pits? Will my Great Pyrs be safe? Are the kids in the area safe? I don't care about loosing a chicken every now and then, but I don't want the monsters killing goats or kids in the area or hurting my family. And is my St Bernard safe from them? 

Animal control is a joke around here. They only take what they can catch when they finally show up. Other than that, they just go to the people to say other neighbors in the area are complaining about their dogs. Usually you see a couple of their beasts running at least once a week or more.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Mekasmom
SSS
also a pyr should be able to handle most of the junk being sold as pits now. Roosevelt wrote a firsthand account of a bulldog bieng matched on a sled dog in the north country. since the sled dog was 2-3X the size of the bulldog it just reached down and killed it same as a terrier would a rat. so your pyrs should be okay unless the whole crew shows up at one time. even then they should be able to hold their own until you get out to start shooting. also if any of the dogs are controllable & catchable take them several counties away and drop them off at a pound or rescue.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Pancho
have you considered an american staghound. they are descended mostly from *working* scotch deerhounds & greyhounds. they are currently used by wolfers to catch & kill coyotes in open running like nebraska, iowa, idaho & utah. the big ones can be as large as 34" & 120# (smallest i've heard of is 55# and average is 70-90#). they are generally great w/ the owner & usually other people but can be real killers of small animals like cats, ****, fox or even deer. as long as they don't break their back hitting a fence or irrigation ditch at top speed they tend to reach 12-15 YO, cancer & other health problems are pretty close to nonexistant. they are everything the KC would have you believe the Irish is. best of all you can get a started dog + shipping for about 1/2 what a IW pup would cost.


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## Mooselover (May 4, 2009)

i have a friend who breeds 'pits'. he is very, very, very selective about what he does and how he does it. and his pups don't go to just anyone. he doesn't do it for the money (although he could). he does it when he's got a dog that has wonder qualities that he's looking for and he wants that line continued. i wanted one of his pups and boy, did i get a drill'in about pits and the type of owner you need to be to have one. i decided that i wouldn't be a responsible 'pit' owner. no matter how wonderful his dogs are they will have that 'instintive' aggression (as he explained to me). 

thank Pancho for the wonderful information. it's the same info that my friend shared (minus the fighting info). it changed my mind about owning a pit. it's too bad more people don't do their research before owning a dog. it's dangerous for the dog, the dog owner, and the community.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Mooselover said:


> thank Pancho for the wonderful information. it's the same info that my friend shared (minus the fighting info). it changed my mind about owning a pit. it's too bad more people don't do their research before owning a dog.


DH wanted a pit bull, and though I like them, I wasn't sure if I wanted to deal with owning one. We were looking at AmStaffs a little bit, since I'd heard that AmStaff breeders have focused on creating a more peaceful animal. But thanks to Pancho and some other experienced folks I've spoken with, I've gotten the picture: no matter what the breeding or temperament of the dog appears to be, you can never trust a pit bull not to fight. I wish there was a genetic marker you could test for.


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## StBernardLove (Aug 20, 2010)

Wolf Flower said:


> DH wanted a pit bull, and though I like them, I wasn't sure if I wanted to deal with owning one. We were looking at AmStaffs a little bit, since I'd heard that AmStaff breeders have focused on creating a more peaceful animal. But thanks to Pancho and some other experienced folks I've spoken with, I've gotten the picture: no matter what the breeding or temperament of the dog appears to be, you can never trust a pit bull not to fight. I wish there was a genetic marker you could test for.


Maybe you could look into American Bullies. Basically, it's a cross between APBTs and AmStaffs, although some breeders cross them with bulldogs, mastiffs, etc. But they do run a little pricey, many of the breeders also don't test for defects or sound joints. And a lot of them breed some hideous unhealthy monsters (massive heads, short legs, low to the ground, really beefy, I feel bad for those dogs, as their existence looks unbearable). There are good AmBullies, they're just hard to find. Researching blood lines helps, as there are many that throw very hot, or cold dogs. Razor's Edge, Gotti, Grey Line and I think Watchdog are AmBully lines.

Ex. Lucy is a Colby dog. Everyone I talk to claims they're cold dogs these days. Well, yes, she's pretty laid back, and gets along with many dogs, but there are dogs she flat out wants to eat. She won't start a fight, but she'll finish it. I just make sure I keep an eye on her, have a break stick, and know the dogs she's around, and always have a collar on her.


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## StBernardLove (Aug 20, 2010)

mekasmom said:


> I want to ask a question about everyday life and living with neighbors with pits. How do you protect yourself and your own pets from them? Animal control comes out repeatedly for complaints about the people down the road from me and other people. They had 7 pits and pit mixes who "get loose" on a weekly basis. I think they have 4 now because they got rid of a few of them.
> 
> Will My Great Pyrs be able to protect the goats from pits? Will my Great Pyrs be safe? Are the kids in the area safe? I don't care about loosing a chicken every now and then, but I don't want the monsters killing goats or kids in the area or hurting my family. And is my St Bernard safe from them?
> 
> Animal control is a joke around here. They only take what they can catch when they finally show up. Other than that, they just go to the people to say other neighbors in the area are complaining about their dogs. Usually you see a couple of their beasts running at least once a week or more.


A gun helps. Depending on what the laws on protecting yourself and your livestock are, I'd just shoot them if they came on the property.

Speak with the neighbors. Ask them to please set up chain spots for their dogs, or a secure kennel. If they don't, or say they won't, let them know if the dogs come on your property, they'll be gone, whether it's by your hands or AC. Make reports so a file is started, so if you do shoot the dogs, and the neighbors have a problem with it, well, you made your complaints and nothing was done about it.

I think the pit bulls would be more interested in your goats than your big dogs. But I recommend investing in a break stick in case one of them gets ahold of a goat or dog, you can break it up quickly and with minimal damage done.

Tell the kids to come home if they see the dogs loose and let you know. Maybe they can carry pepper spray or bear mace. Make sure when they see a loose dog they don't run off screaming (kids around here do that, and that just makes loose dogs chase them).


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## Navotifarm (Dec 16, 2009)

Pancho, I'd like to know more about controlling pit bulls. What is a break stick? How do you use it? Where do you get them? 
I worked briefly for a lady who raised bull terriers. She said when they get in a fight, locked on each other, the only way she could separate them was to hang them on a fence, one on each side, and spray them with the hose. She also had pepper spray. 
In your dog attack story, you describe catching the dog in mid-air and throwing it repeatedly so I'm guessing owners of these dogs have to be terrifically strong and have amazing resources yet your 45 pound dog knocked you down. How can you tell when they are going to attack? I get the feeling they don't give much or any warning. Where I live we just had an incident where a nice older spca worker was walking a pit bull to a car and he turned on her andtore her leg and foot up, apparently taking her unawares. Do they knock someone flat and then bite or is it an allinone blammo?
In all candor, although I love most dogs, I am repelled by pit bulls. So slick and hard muscled with tiny ears and big jaws. My repulsion is instinctive but one sees Cesar Millam and his pit bull Daddy (well now it's Son of Daddy) and it makes me feel I,m being unfair to react to pit bulls as if they were snakes that could strike at any moment. So Pancho, since you've been open and lucid here plus you know what you are talking about, I'd like to know more about handling pit bulls competently. For example, the one that attacked you, I would guess he tried some other times but you anticipated and thwarted his attempts? How?
Thanks for your reply. I really want to know about handling hair trigger dogs particularly pit bulls.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

i must strongly reccommend AGAINST the american bully junk. neapolitan mastiff was used to boost size & then papers were hung on them. the neo is a recreated breed developed for manwork and so they have a very LOW inhibition against biting people. you have no way of knowing which bully got the neo genes to match up & make a truly man aggressive dog.
keep in mind Joe Lucero used this precise cross to creat the first real working bandogs in the modern era. specifically he bred a catchweight APBT from game lines over a neo *****. his dogs are extremely highly regarded among Personal Protection Dog trainers. he is EXTREMELY picky about the people he sells to, basically if you don't have or aren't willing to be mentored in properly training & handling serious PP dogs it's no sale & you can shove your money. he won't sell to just anyone because he believes it would be a hazzard to peoples lives to put his dogs in the wrong homes.
now american bullies aren't really in the same class but you never know which one might be a freak. the average person can be manhandled easily by a 40# heeler or mal, so what do you think would happen when faced w/ an aggressive 80# plus monster.
if bullies were well bred i might not have such an aversion, but they are bred almost exclusively as penile extensions by ignorant dillweeds that shouldn't own a goldfish.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

navotifarm
a breakstick is piece of strong hard wood like hickory carved into the shape of a rounded point dagger. you use it by wedging it into the back of the jaws and twist like a screwdriver. it is the best way of seperating two dogs w/ the least damage. water can cause death by aspiration pnuemonia a week or more after the incident.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Anyone who owns any type of bull, terrier or mastiff breed should know how use a breaker stick. Water, pepper spray, shocking and all the other tried techniques can make them fight harder. I have always found the easiest route is to let one of the dogs get a grip, put a leash on them, secure the leash so something then break the grip. The dogs are now separated. Oh and staying calm helps.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

StBernardLove said:


> Maybe you could look into American Bullies. Basically, it's a cross between APBTs and AmStaffs, although some breeders cross them with bulldogs, mastiffs, etc. But they do run a little pricey, many of the breeders also don't test for defects or sound joints. And a lot of them breed some hideous unhealthy monsters (massive heads, short legs, low to the ground, really beefy, I feel bad for those dogs, as their existence looks unbearable). There are good AmBullies, they're just hard to find. Researching blood lines helps, as there are many that throw very hot, or cold dogs. Razor's Edge, Gotti, Grey Line and I think Watchdog are AmBully lines.
> 
> Ex. Lucy is a Colby dog. Everyone I talk to claims they're cold dogs these days. Well, yes, she's pretty laid back, and gets along with many dogs, but there are dogs she flat out wants to eat. She won't start a fight, but she'll finish it. I just make sure I keep an eye on her, have a break stick, and know the dogs she's around, and always have a collar on her.


Really, the amstaff and the pit bull are the same dog, just different registeries. The AKC does not recognize the pit bull so they changed the name of the pit bull so they could be registered there. Many pit bulls are double registered. They are AKC amstaffs and UKC pit bulls. Some are even triple registered, AKC as amstaffs, UKC as pit bulls, and ADBA as pit bulls.

If you ask those who have only AKC dogs they will say their dogs are bred for a certain purpose and standard. Their standard is based on a UKC dog, Colby's Dime.
If you ask those who have only UKC dogs they will say their dogs are bred for a ceretain purpose and their standard is a little difference.
If you ask those who have only ADBA dogs they will say they have the original pit bull and have a different standard.
There are many dual show champions, AKC and UKC. A few triple champions, AKC, UKC, and ADBA. Same dog.

The ambully is a cross of pit bull and mastiff with a little english bull. The razors edge, gotti, grey line are mixes. Even the people who developed the breed will admit that. Watchdog used to be a very good pit bull until the owner sold out and they were crossed with the previous bloodlines.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Navotifarm said:


> Pancho, I'd like to know more about controlling pit bulls. What is a break stick? How do you use it? Where do you get them?
> I worked briefly for a lady who raised bull terriers. She said when they get in a fight, locked on each other, the only way she could separate them was to hang them on a fence, one on each side, and spray them with the hose. She also had pepper spray.
> In your dog attack story, you describe catching the dog in mid-air and throwing it repeatedly so I'm guessing owners of these dogs have to be terrifically strong and have amazing resources yet your 45 pound dog knocked you down. How can you tell when they are going to attack? I get the feeling they don't give much or any warning. Where I live we just had an incident where a nice older spca worker was walking a pit bull to a car and he turned on her andtore her leg and foot up, apparently taking her unawares. Do they knock someone flat and then bite or is it an allinone blammo?
> In all candor, although I love most dogs, I am repelled by pit bulls. So slick and hard muscled with tiny ears and big jaws. My repulsion is instinctive but one sees Cesar Millam and his pit bull Daddy (well now it's Son of Daddy) and it makes me feel I,m being unfair to react to pit bulls as if they were snakes that could strike at any moment. So Pancho, since you've been open and lucid here plus you know what you are talking about, I'd like to know more about handling pit bulls competently. For example, the one that attacked you, I would guess he tried some other times but you anticipated and thwarted his attempts? How?
> Thanks for your reply. I really want to know about handling hair trigger dogs particularly pit bulls.


A break stick is just any tapered object that can be placed behind the teeth of a dog to get him to open his mouth. Correctly used it is possible to get a dog to turn loose of another dog quickly and easily. Incorrectly used it can cause damage to both dogs and possibly the user and not break them up.

Bull terriers are a different breed than the pit bull and should be treated different. Pepper spray or a water hose will not stop a pit bull. In the case of a water hose it can actually make the fight last longer as it will cool the dog off and he will be able to fight longer. The majority of bull terriers are even tempered and do not have the bite of a pit bull so the damage done breaking up a fight may be more than the damage done in the fight.

Nearly any person in reasonable physical shape can lift a pit bull and throw it. If they cannot physically do that they have absolutely no business owning the dog. The dog that took me down hit me so fast and with such force I was down before I even realized he had hit me. He had never made any threatening move on a person before and never did after that. He was raised as a house dog by my parents since he was 8 weeks old. They do not give any warning. Barking, growling, hair standing up are for bluff. These things are used instead of attacking. A pit bull has little need of a bluff action so they don't give any warning. When a pit bull attacks they are silent. Even in a match there isn't any noise. 

Not all pit bulls have the look you described. Some do but not all and not those who are bred for a purpose. Ears are not small unless they are clipped off. You can cut them to any lenght you want or leave them natural. Natural ears make the dog look less threatening so many will cut the ears to increase the tough looks. Jaws should be strong but without the big jaws on some. The larger wider jaws make the bite less strong and breathing more difficult so the correct pit bull will not have these. Those breeding for the tough look will have the big jaws, wide large heads, wide shoulders, and short legs. These are not pit bulls, they are crosses designed to look the part but unable to actually back it up.

Hope this helped.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JasoninMN said:


> Anyone who owns any type of bull, terrier or mastiff breed should know how use a breaker stick. Water, pepper spray, shocking and all the other tried techniques can make them fight harder. I have always found the easiest route is to let one of the dogs get a grip, put a leash on them, secure the leash so something then break the grip. The dogs are now separated. Oh and staying calm helps.


That is the correct and best way and the way most experienced dog people will use. Not many people know the correct way and staying calm is almost impossible for those who do not have any idea what the dog can do or why he is doing it.

Most people want to break up a fight as soon as possible and this can cause a lot of damage. In the case of non pit bulls it is usually easier to let them go for it unless there is a lot of difference in size. The majority of dogs just don't have the power and skill needed to do much damage. They will usually get tired and want to quit in a short time.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

while it is not the noisy mess that most people think, i wouldn't call a match silent. the dogs tend to whine w/ excitement & frustration until released. they sure as heck throw a fit when they see they are being left home when other dogs get loaded up to go.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

Awesome thread share ... thanks to the contributors ...


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Pops2 said:


> while it is not the noisy mess that most people think, i wouldn't call a match silent. the dogs tend to whine w/ excitement & frustration until released. they sure as heck throw a fit when they see they are being left home when other dogs get loaded up to go.


A little bit different noise than most would think.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

A little example on jaw strenght and breaking dogs apart...My very first Boston was a little 15 lb girl out of pet lines that I purchased from an elderly farm couple. She eventually started silently and instantly attacking my other dogs in the blink of an eye - all it would take was someone pulling in the driveway and one of the dogs showing excitement...Anyways, her last attack before we had her pts, she latched on so hard to another dog that myself and husband could not pry her jaws apart. I stood there and watched hub in a rage attempting to pry her jaws apart and they would not even budge. The other dog was just laying there crying. He is a muscular guy and once lifted the front end of a International Lo Boy tractor (when it broke down in the middle of the road), yet could do nothing to release this little 15 lb bitches jaws while pulling so hard with both hands that his face was red...Compare this to a large breed latched on. I can only imagine.


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## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

All my life I have heard "this breed or that breed" that has become dangerous IE dobies because their brains grow too big for their skulls that it drives them mad with pain...heard that when I was a kid of 12 and am still hearing it 30 years later...its become like an old wives tale. Hmmm lets see it was a Pekingese that tried to take my older son's eye out when he is 5, was a shepherd mix that bit my oldest daughter when she was playing over at her friends, was a Malamute that took my youngest boy at 18 months old down by the face and ohhh wait was neighbor's chow that tried to rip my 4 year old daughter's face off...I have had a few pits mostly rescued from abusive owners Oh heck I have had lots of dogs that were rescued from bad ownership, my most current one is a AnaPyr that is very food aggressive will attack any animal that gets near me until I put her food down....A dog is a dog is a dog...


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

wintrrwolf said:


> All my life I have heard "this breed or that breed" that has become dangerous IE dobies because their brains grow too big for their skulls that it drives them mad with pain...heard that when I was a kid of 12 and am still hearing it 30 years later...its become like an old wives tale. Hmmm lets see it was a Pekingese that tried to take my older son's eye out when he is 5, was a shepherd mix that bit my oldest daughter when she was playing over at her friends, was a Malamute that took my youngest boy at 18 months old down by the face and ohhh wait was neighbor's chow that tried to rip my 4 year old daughter's face off...I have had a few pits mostly rescued from abusive owners Oh heck I have had lots of dogs that were rescued from bad ownership, my most current one is a AnaPyr that is very food aggressive will attack any animal that gets near me until I put her food down....A dog is a dog is a dog...


If you will read through the post some of us have been trying to show there is a lot of difference in dogs. Performance dogs are bred different than pets.
People who have only been around pet bred dogs may not know the difference. People who have only been around crossbreeds may not have any idea how a quality bred working dog differs.

I can remember being on a pit bull forum a few years ago. Someone sent in a short clip of their dog's normal actions. This was a modern day forum and the majority of dog owners kept commenting about how hyper, atheletic, and strong the dog was. She was a pure pit bull of a known bloodline. The people on a pit bull forum didn't even know that was the normal behavior of a quality bred pit bull. They were used to the scatter bred dogs of today.

It is all in what you are used to being around. It will amaze some how fast a greyhound is if they haven't been around one or ever seen a quality dog run.
It will amaze people who have never been around herding dogs when they see what a quality bred border collie can do.
If people have never been around a quality bred pit bull they won't believe what they are capable of either.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

My brother had an amstaff that had been used in the pit (as bait, we guessed)- scars all over him and teeth pulled- sweetest, calmest dog you'd ever want, but absolutely terrified by men in hats and long coats. Shaking under the bed terrified. His only bad habit? When you left the house and he didn't get to go, he ate things. Like a remote. Never a wild, tear into everything fit- just one thing, just to show you how he felt about being left behind, lol. 
RIP Max.


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## StBernardLove (Aug 20, 2010)

pancho said:


> Really, the amstaff and the pit bull are the same dog, just different registeries. The AKC does not recognize the pit bull so they changed the name of the pit bull so they could be registered there. Many pit bulls are double registered. They are AKC amstaffs and UKC pit bulls. Some are even triple registered, AKC as amstaffs, UKC as pit bulls, and ADBA as pit bulls.
> 
> If you ask those who have only AKC dogs they will say their dogs are bred for a certain purpose and standard. Their standard is based on a UKC dog, Colby's Dime.
> If you ask those who have only UKC dogs they will say their dogs are bred for a ceretain purpose and their standard is a little difference.
> ...


They are the same, but AmStaffs, while technically the same dog, are often being bred for different qualities, and are being bred away from the APBT. Breeders of game bred APBTs definitely breed their dogs for different traits and qualities than AmStaff breeders.

And I have seen a few well bred AmBullies, they're just few and far between. Mostly I see poorly bred monstrosities since most of the AmBully people want the most freakish looking dog they can get their hands on.

Like this one.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

There's a slight difference between AKC and UKC registered american staffordshire/pit bull. The AKC does not permit certain colors while UKC allows pretty much all colors except for merle (some people are breeding merle pit bulls claiming they're purebred. No...those pit bulls had some catahoula bred into them in the past somewhere and those breeders get angry when you say otherwise) I mean really angry!

The strongest pit bull that I've met was an ADBA registered pit bull of 32 lbs! You read that right..32 lbs. She has always been able to bring down 500 lbs of angry hog but sometimes the hog can carry her but not always. When she catches the ear, she twists her body to the point that she is able to slam down the hog usually. She is not dog aggressive because she has been taught that it was not acceptable therefore she's used as a catch dog but her mates that she is bred to are ok with female dogs but not with males at all!

The most smartest pit bull I met is called "cold" because he's perfectly fine with dogs outside of the pit..he will even play with them and do doggy things with them but once he is placed in the pit and told "Get 'em." He then will fight with ANY dog in that pit. He was trained to be "turned" on in the pit and off out of the pit. That dog is also used as a catch dog in the woods. That is rare.

One of my favorite bully breeds is the Staffordshire Bull terrier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staffordshire_Bull_Terrier they are rather excellent with children and are called the Nanny dog in England where they originated from. They are on the small side though but fun dogs to have!


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

... :0


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

Border collie maims 2 year old: 

WARNING graphic images!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...titches-attack-grandparents-timid-collie.html

Ban border collies now?


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## asti (May 18, 2010)

I am *SO SORRY *for this youngster, best of wishes for a complete recovery!

No the answer is not banning _breeds_ its the breeders/owners/handlers of ANY animal, period


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

temperament is 50% genetic and 50% environment. so which made the dog go off?
the breeding (breeder) or the owner/home (environment)


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

TedH71 said:


> One of my favorite bully breeds is the Staffordshire Bull terrier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staffordshire_Bull_Terrier they are rather excellent with children and are called the Nanny dog in England where they originated from. They are on the small side though but fun dogs to have!


You and I sure do share similar tastes in dogs. lol:goodjob:


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## StBernardLove (Aug 20, 2010)

tailwagging said:


> temperament is 50% genetic and 50% environment. so which made the dog go off?
> the breeding (breeder) or the owner/home (environment)


Neither. It was the idiot owner who later claims after the attack, "my dog would never do that/the dog never acted aggressively before". You should know what makes your dog tick, and what could potentially set your dog off. If the dog exhibits troubling behavior, either put it to sleep (more dogs in the world where that one came from) or keep it under lock and key with strict supervision.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

................I'm going too say that , after reading most of this thread , I'm Left wondering , WHY , our combat forces are NOT breeding and training Pits too attack The Terrorists in Afghanistan ! Several of these 90 pound , 4 legged commandos could roust out more terrorists in a minute than a whole platoon of Marines . Why aren't they being trained as Man killers , and then let loose upon our enemies ! , fordy


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

because real pits don't get to 90#
real pits actually bite less than other breeds
however they have been used to improve other breeds that are used for manwork.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

StBernardLove said:


> Maybe you could look into American Bullies. Basically, it's a cross between APBTs and AmStaffs, although some breeders cross them with bulldogs, mastiffs, etc. But they do run a little pricey, many of the breeders also don't test for defects or sound joints. And a lot of them breed some hideous unhealthy monsters (massive heads, short legs, low to the ground, really beefy, I feel bad for those dogs, as their existence looks unbearable).


This is exactly why we haven't looked at AmBullies. Why would anyone pay $2000 for a dog that hasn't been tested for anything, and looks like it's going to fall apart by age 4? It sort of disgusts me. The dogs themselves may be sweet and non-aggressive, but I would question why people are breeding these dogs in the first place. We already have a wide, low, thick breed with a multitude of expensive health problems, and they are called English Bulldogs. I hardly think we need another one.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

TedH71 said:


> The most smartest pit bull I met is called "cold" because he's perfectly fine with dogs outside of the pit..he will even play with them and do doggy things with them but once he is placed in the pit and told "Get 'em." He then will fight with ANY dog in that pit. He was trained to be "turned" on in the pit and off out of the pit. That dog is also used as a catch dog in the woods. That is rare.


Now this is fascinating to me. I'd be interested to know how he trained his dog not to fight outside the pit.

A friend of mine had an intact pit mix, "Otis", who was the least DA dog I ever knew; he would greet strange dogs in a friendly and confident manner, then either play with them or ignore them. Several times I saw other dogs try to pick a fight with him. He would simply turn around, march off to the nearest bush with his tail held high, lift his leg on it, and then go about his business. It always seemed to confuse the other dog.

But in the face of a real attack, he didn't mess around. One time he and his master were walking in the alley, and a shepherd mix jumped the fence and charged them. Within a few seconds Otis had that dog screaming for mercy and trying desperately to jump back over his fence.

Otis was incredibly gentle with children and other animals; even people who were afraid of dogs were won over by him. His was a temperament I very much admired.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

there were plenty of game dogs like that w/o any training at all, not most or even a large minority but enough that most every old time dogman owned at least one along the way. they just figured out over time that the box was where they were supposed to fight and so wouldn't show any drive until they were in there.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Pits aren't allowed in my town either. 

Does it happen with other breeds, yes. 

As far as Poncho, you may not like it, but at least you are getting blunt,honest, first had knowledge instead of regurgitated third and fourth pary info that has likely been sensationalized eachtime it passed a pair of lips to better prove the point.

However, I do think its a breed who's time has passed. Poncho is right. They are not a pet dog. Are their great individule dogs out there? Yes. But they are rather over shadowed by the numbers that just aren't stable. Most likely because they have been crossed with other breeds in the past to increase size or give a different color. Its sad but they are not a dog that should ever be taken in by someone to be their pet. And unfortunately for the pitt bull, there are just too many idiot humans who think it will increase their manliness to have one chained in the yard with a spiked color. We either have to ban the pit or get rid of the idiots. Personally, I am all for getting rid of the idiots so that only people who really understand the breed, know how to handle it, take the proper precautions, and work to preserve the breed the way it is suppose to be, are the ones that own them.

There have been reports yes of other breeds attacking their owner. How many wrench away from their handlers, charge down the street and attack without provocation a woman and her collie? This happened to a friend of mine in NY when a pit attacked her and her dog. The only thing that saved her and her dog was a neighbor who cracked the dog over the head with a steel bar. My friend was able to get her dog in the house and shut the door. Thanks to her collie's quick agility and large collie mane, the pit was never able to get a secure hold. But my friend says if it had been just a few seconds longer, her collie would be shreds. Once pits get into their heads to flip, they just don't stop. They are single minded in their attack.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Oh and as for the seven pits allowed to run loose, either SSS, or wait until they are around your place and toss out meat with poison in it. I love dogs but I refuse to be afraid to let my kids play. Since you can't poison or SSS the owners, all you can do is try to get rid of the mess they are making.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> As far as Poncho, you may not like it, but at least you are getting blunt,honest, first had knowledge instead of regurgitated third and fourth pary info that has likely been sensationalized eachtime it passed a pair of lips to better prove the point...


My issue is with anyone who would participate in a blood sport, not with the information on the breed being discussed.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

I am no fan of blood sports either but then I think rodeos are cruel too except for maybe the barrel racing and pole bending where the horses obviously love what they are doing. However the roping, I think is cruel as well that he bucking and such. 

But that is just my opinion and a lot of people would think that opinion is crazy.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

life is a bloodsport. don't believe me, go turn on some wild kingdom or whatever the current equivalent is.
the problem Ravenlost is you & others are willing to totally ignore the mans wealth of knowledge because of HOW he gained it. it is as asinine as saying you don't want my advice on how/which gun to use for self defense because i've actually shot people & that you'd rather get it from someone that has never been in battle. do you see the incongruity at all?


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

OBF
i would have to disagree strongly w/ breed banning. it has been a dismal failure in nearly all cases. the Netherlands repealed their ban because they found NO change in either the number or severity of dog attacks. Scotland's parliment just voted to no longer enforce the breed ban of the UK's dangerous dogs act because since the ban the number of attacks INCREASED 150% (complacent fools let their guard down basically & scumbags shifted to breeds less able to tolerate the abuse). what does seem to work is holding owners accountable for their actions (or usually the lack thereof).
what i would support is treating all dogs like a weapon and prohibt anyone convicted of a felony or certain violent misdemeanors from owning, possesing, handling or residing w/ ANY dog 30# or larger. and make violating this law a felony same as a convict w/ a gun. since a huge percentage of the irresponsible scumbags fall into that catergory it would only leave them in the hands of more capable owners & the scumbags couldn't just shift to another mentally weaker breed.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Ravenlost said:


> My issue is with anyone who would participate in a blood sport, not with the information on the breed being discussed.


Pancho has said many times that he stopped doing it when it became illegal--what's that, 30+ years ago now? He has said he agrees the sport is cruel, and believes it should be illegal. He doesn't even own pit bulls any more.

He even apologized for talking about dogfighting. What more do you want?


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

JasoninMN said:


> You know, I just have to say, I am quite impressed that we have had a working dog thread, a puppy mill/breeder thread and now a pit bull thread that never got locked on this forum. That is very impressive for a online forum of any sorts! It really is nice this thread for the most part stayed pretty civil despite the different views.





CrashTestRanch said:


> Awesome thread share ... thanks to the contributors ...


 
Not locked because the thread has stayed civil. HT is all about people helping people, and this thread is educational IMO.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolf Flower said:


> Pancho has said many times that he stopped doing it when it became illegal--what's that, 30+ years ago now? He has said he agrees the sport is cruel, and believes it should be illegal. He doesn't even own pit bulls any more.
> 
> He even apologized for talking about dogfighting. What more do you want?


Thanks.

Anyone who has any real interest in the pit bull should spend a little time researching the breed. The very first thing they should learn is the reason the breed is in the U.S. today is because it was brought in for dog fighting, no other reason. When they were first imported it was match dogs. Every single pit bull in the U.S. today came from these fighting dogs. If it wasn't for these people interested in dog fighting there wouldn't have been any pit bulls imported.

People have different ideas about what they like and want in a dog. That is the reason there are so many different breeds. With all of the choices available today there is a type of dog for just about everybody. It is very hard for me to understand why a person would take a dog bred for centurys for a certain job and want it to change just because they do not like the history of the dog. Why not just choose a similiar dog without the inbred traits they do not like. If a person wants a pet dog choose from many different breeds especially developed for just that purpose. If a person wants a watch or guard dog why not choose a dog from the many different breeds developed just for that purpose. If a person wants a hunting dog there are many different breeds to choose from that were special bred for just that purpose.

Why choose a dog that was developed, selective bred for, tested for, culled for, and used for a fighting dog. If you are looking for a fighting dog there is no better choice. If you are looking for a dog for some other reason there are many better choices. What makes a person decide on a dog they should know has the ability to do so much damage? What makes a person decide on taking a dog bred for a blood sport and want to make a pet out of it?

If people really care about the pit bull or if people really worry about the danger they can be, they should look at the people who choose the breed for pets. People and pets are not being attacked by dog fighters. People and pets are being attacked by dogs people choose to keep as pets. Many times people are attacked by their own pets. It is simple, they chose the wrong breed for a pet.

What is it about the breed that makes people choose it instead of another breed? Why would any person take such a chance just for a pet dog? Why would a person take a chance on their pet hurting another person. That is the part I find hard to understand. 
Why do people choose the breed?
Why are people willing to take that chance with their friends, family, and other people?

Hope there is someone who can explain why people choose to do these things knowing what the results might be.


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## Immaculate Sublimity (Apr 30, 2003)

Wolf Flower said:


> Now this is fascinating to me. I'd be interested to know how he trained his dog not to fight outside the pit.


A simple strategy used by many in the dog world ( conformation, obedience, agility, herding, bitework) I do multi sports with my dogs and each clashes with the basis of the other... in the show ring I dont want my dog heeling properly and looking at me, rather I want the dog to display its breed character and conformation to its best ability.... in the obedience ring I dont want my dog charging ahead to get the routine done ( and it is repetition) in agility I want my dog to hustle but , but still be tuned on my directive... etc etc etc... to accomplish all these things with the same animal... I condition them to 'collars' and each collar means a different thing to the dog... a show lead ALWAYS means only conformation... a training collar (prong or choke) ALWAYS means obedience is being worked on.... a buckle collar means agility .... and a harness means tracking or protection.... (sheep mean sheep regardless) Its quite simple if you think about it.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

Pops2 said:


> life is a bloodsport. don't believe me, go turn on some wild kingdom or whatever the current equivalent is.
> the problem Ravenlost is you & others are willing to totally ignore the mans wealth of knowledge because of HOW he gained it. it is as asinine as saying you don't want my advice on how/which gun to use for self defense because i've actually shot people & that you'd rather get it from someone that has never been in battle. do you see the incongruity at all?


Where did I say I was ignoring his wealth of knowledge? 

I personally believe that life is not a sport, but then, I don't agree that I am asinine either!


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Ravenlost said:


> My issue is with anyone who would participate in a blood sport, not with the information on the breed being discussed.


You have to realize this is a cultural issue. Cock fighting and dog fighting are common and accepted in certain cultures around the globe, and at certain times in history. Now in the US, it is not seen as an acceptable "sport". It is vicious and abusive, IMO, but I do understand that different cultures view things differently. In other nations and pockets of society around the world it is seen as a totally acceptable "sport".

Some people view hunting as animal abuse, but many see it as a sport. Same way with boxing which is stupid to me, but seen as a sport and acceptable. Same in the past with slavery. Two hundred years ago keeping a human as a slave living in substandard conditions was acceptable and seen as normal. 

It's too easy to point fingers at others and judge, and it really isn't mature to do that without considering cultural differences. But we do need to understand that cultures and times have different mores. I mean some Asians eat dogs. We treat dogs like they are children. Cultures vary greatly around the world.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jul 28, 2006)

Pops2 said:


> OBF
> i would have to disagree strongly w/ breed banning. it has been a dismal failure in nearly all cases. the Netherlands repealed their ban because they found NO change in either the number or severity of dog attacks. Scotland's parliment just voted to no longer enforce the breed ban of the UK's dangerous dogs act because since the ban the number of attacks INCREASED 150% (complacent fools let their guard down basically & scumbags shifted to breeds less able to tolerate the abuse). what does seem to work is holding owners accountable for their actions (or usually the lack thereof).
> what i would support is treating all dogs like a weapon and prohibt anyone convicted of a felony or certain violent misdemeanors from owning, possesing, handling or residing w/ ANY dog 30# or larger. and make violating this law a felony same as a convict w/ a gun. since a huge percentage of the irresponsible scumbags fall into that catergory it would only leave them in the hands of more capable owners & the scumbags couldn't just shift to another mentally weaker breed.


I would be fine with that too. However, I would further restrict it to they can't own any dogs. A 25 pound dog can do plenty of damage to a child.


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## BoldViolet (Feb 5, 2009)

Oat Bucket Farm said:


> I would be fine with that too. However, I would further restrict it to they can't own any dogs. A 25 pound dog can do plenty of damage to a child.


And an even smaller dog can kill an infant like the one I posted a few pages back.

The fact of the matter is, most people put forth far more effort into researching their next toaster than they do researching the ins and outs of a mobile creature with some serious teeth.

Worse, there are many that treat their dogs as children. They are DOGS. They are NOT children. Dogs do not think like humans. They do not behave like humans. They do not function like humans.

If I treated my Akitas like children, they'd have been put down. These are large, dominant working dogs. You CAN. NOT. take them lightly. When these dogs give me attitude (and it's only been once with my male and twice with my female), I cannot back down. ...which is really awkward when you have to tackle, mount, and bite the face of one of your dogs when your neighbors are watching...

Working as a dog groomer in a very yuppie part of town, I see the consequences of these people who get these (often large) dogs and think that they come out of the womb knowing how to behave. Golden retrievers and "doodle" dogs are supposed to be "perfect family and children dogs," but without socialization and training, they are menaces. I've been bitten by plenty of golden retrievers and labradors - dogs that "aren't supposed to be aggressive."

Pit bulls and pit bull types can be wonderful pets, but it requires lots of research into temperament and breeding, and even more training and socialization, but this is the same for any dog of any breed.

All dogs have teeth. All dogs can bite. All dogs have the basic wiring of a wild wolf when you get down to it. If more people would realize that, I think there would be less instances of dog attacks.

If people were held more accountable for the damage that their animals can do, I think there would be less instances of dog attacks.



-my opinion, your mileage may vary


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Immaculate Sublimity said:


> I condition them to 'collars' and each collar means a different thing to the dog... a show lead ALWAYS means only conformation... a training collar (prong or choke) ALWAYS means obedience is being worked on.... a buckle collar means agility .... and a harness means tracking or protection.... (sheep mean sheep regardless) Its quite simple if you think about it.


Of course, that is relatively simple to accomplish with a herding breed or any dog that is biddable enough to be trained for multiple dogsports. I guess I am not putting pit bulls in the "biddable" category, assuming that they cannot control their drive to fight. Perhaps I am not giving them enough credit?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolf Flower said:


> Of course, that is relatively simple to accomplish with a herding breed or any dog that is biddable enough to be trained for multiple dogsports. I guess I am not putting pit bulls in the "biddable" category, assuming that they cannot control their drive to fight. Perhaps I am not giving them enough credit?


Pit bulls can be trained. They are a very intelligent breed. Even with training they still have that bred in trait. It can be controlled. It is possible to take any pit bull and with enough training to be able to take it around other dogs. It has to have the training and the person controlling the dog must know what to expect and how to handle any problem that comes up.

The problems we see nowdays with the pit bull is owners that know little about the breed, owners not physically able to handle their dog, and owners who have no idea why and how the breed was developed.

Many pit bulls are smaller than 25-30lbs. It is just in recent years that we see the large pit bulls. Most are a cross. Some pure pit bull males might be 60-65lbs fat. Females usually not over 45-50lbs fat. They are not a large dog. I have even know one person who had a bloodline that produced mostly dogs under 10lbs.


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## CrashTestRanch (Jul 14, 2010)

We can bash pb's all we want, the truth is the environment the animal was raised in. Yes, some animals are "hostile" from birth, but most are raised/taught to be aggressive. 

We have rescues. APBT, Rott-Pit mix and full chocolate Lab. All very calm, great dogs. Why? Environment/Training. Out APBT is great at the dog park, walks, around strangers. The only time she is aggressive is when strangers come to the door, but she will back off when ordered (training), which I actually like in a dog.

A family member bought their dogs, one pug, was VISCOUS, that dog would take chunks outta your backside, calf, leg, hand or whatever else it could latch onto, but all the temperament data state that this breed is RARELY aggressive. Why this dog? They treated that dog aggressively, boxing, fighting, head butting, etc...it even took on a neighbors full blood rott. The other dog they had, black lab, was the same temperament. I HATED those dogs, threatened to have them put down so many times, glad their outta my house, as their behavior was impacting our dogs. Now that they're gone, my dogs have calmed down considerably.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

> I guess I am not putting pit bulls in the "biddable" category, assuming that they cannot control their drive to fight. Perhaps I am not giving them enough credit?


You can control it, but it will always be part of the dogs temperament. Just like you can't ever get rid of a working border collies desire to herd or a labs desire to retrieve. 

Pit bulls are actually very biddable and trainable. They have excelled at every dog sport out there. There are pit bulls who have even won bird dog trials and herding trials before those organizations limited the breeds that could enter. The most titled working dog ever is probably a pit bull named Dread. 



> A WORD ABOUT BANDOG DREAD
> 
> By Diane Jessup
> 
> ...


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

mekasmom said:


> You have to realize this is a cultural issue. Cock fighting and dog fighting are common and accepted in certain cultures around the globe, and at certain times in history. Now in the US, it is not seen as an acceptable "sport". It is vicious and abusive, IMO, but I do understand that different cultures view things differently. In other nations and pockets of society around the world it is seen as a totally acceptable "sport".
> 
> Some people view hunting as animal abuse, but many see it as a sport. Same way with boxing which is stupid to me, but seen as a sport and acceptable. Same in the past with slavery. Two hundred years ago keeping a human as a slave living in substandard conditions was acceptable and seen as normal.
> 
> It's too easy to point fingers at others and judge, and it really isn't mature to do that without considering cultural differences. But we do need to understand that cultures and times have different mores. I mean some Asians eat dogs. We treat dogs like they are children. Cultures vary greatly around the world.


SIGH...yes, I realize that. After all, I am a well educated 51-year-old. I also have my own morals and beliefs, as is my right. I didn't realize I'd been pointing fingers and acting immature. Thank you so much for setting me straight.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Ravenlost-- I am very sorry if I offended you by my post. I didn't mean it as a put down. I just meant that we have to see things from the origin of cultures and times too. Younger people see black and white. The older you get, we tend to see grays because we can empathize with other people's lives and cultures. Perhaps I didn't say that well enough in the first post. And I am sorry.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

No problem.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ravenlost, you haven't said anything that would bother me. Everyone should be able to say how they feel and what they believe. I know my ideas and beliefs have changed quite a bit from when I was young.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

pancho said:


> Pit bulls can be trained. They are a very intelligent breed. Even with training they still have that bred in trait. It can be controlled. It is possible to take any pit bull and with enough training to be able to take it around other dogs. It has to have the training and the person controlling the dog must know what to expect and how to handle any problem that comes up.


I suppose that is where the right owner comes in, but it seems that training a pit bull not to fight is rather like training a border collie not to herd. You'd be battling an instinct than man has bred into the dog for centuries. For me, it would be easier to start with a breed that doesn't particularly care for fighting. But I gotta hand it to anyone who can train and handle their pit bull to the point where he can be taken amongst other dogs safely.

I've heard it said that a pit bull is such a confident dog that he doesn't HAVE to fight. He might want to, but but doesn't need to. I bet it would be much harder to train a dog who is aggressive out of fear or insecurity.


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## Lone Wolf (Sep 10, 2010)

I had a pit bull it was the best dog I ever owned. Very loyal Very protective of my family and home. Some jerk shot her and paralyzed her back legs and I had to have her put down.We own a boxer now and a little mutt that my daughter has but I always have a soft spot for Pits.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Wolf Flower said:


> I suppose that is where the right owner comes in, but it seems that training a pit bull not to fight is rather like training a border collie not to herd. You'd be battling an instinct than man has bred into the dog for centuries. For me, it would be easier to start with a breed that doesn't particularly care for fighting. But I gotta hand it to anyone who can train and handle their pit bull to the point where he can be taken amongst other dogs safely.
> 
> I've heard it said that a pit bull is such a confident dog that he doesn't HAVE to fight. He might want to, but but doesn't need to. I bet it would be much harder to train a dog who is aggressive out of fear or insecurity.


That is one of the hardest things to get people to understand. It would be much easier and safer to choose a breed more in the line of what a person wants of a dog. They would have much less problems with the dog and it would be much safer for them, other people, and any animals around them.

Most pit bulls are very confident but they can have just about any problems other breeds have.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

CrashTestRanch
you are mistaken. they aren't trained to be dog aggressive THEY ARE BRED FOR IT. it is hard wired into their genes. a pit bull that is not DA is the ANOMOLY. you can't train a dog to want to fight to the degree that it will win. it is something completely in the dog's brain before it is born. you can "train" other breeds to fight or be reactive, but when they are exhausted or getting their butt handed to them they will quit the fight & jump the wall. very few breeds will stay at it long past the point of survival and only EXCEPTIONAL individuals in those breeds will stay as long as a good pit bulldog.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ever since the pit bull has been in the U.S. there has been a hunt for any dog that could defeat them in a match. Years ago some were real serious in their efforts to find such a dog because they would have been able to make quite a bit of money. Just about all breeds were tried and many different crossbreds. No other breed has ever been a serious threat to the pit bull. Most other breeds didn't last 10 minutes against a pit bull. There has been a few crossbreds that have won a few matches. Usually their matches were carefully chosen. The dogs that did win a few chosen matches could never produce anything that could win. 

There are other breeds that are as strong as the pit bull, there are other breeds that have as strong a bite as a pit bull, and there are other breeds that are as atheletic as the pit bull. The one advantage the pit bull has is gameness. When other breeds may quit when they are loosing, the pit bull stays in there. Other breeds will quit when they get hot and tired, the pit bull will stick in there. Other breeds will quit when facing a much larger dog, the pit bull will stick in there.

This trait of sticking in there is also known as being game. No other breed has any degree of gameness. This trait has been selected for in breeding the pit bull. Hundreds of years of selecting the most game dogs for breeding has developed the dog we have today. That one trait is the most important trait of the pit bull. It is also the hardest to breed for as you can't tell by looking at a dog if it is game. You can't tell until the dog is grown if it is game.
Not all pit bulls are game, the % of game pit bulls is very low.

This one trait is what makes the pit bull so much different than other breeds. It is also the hardest for people to understand. Since no other breed has any degree of gameness all of the experience in the world with other breeds does not matter when it comes to understanding the pit bull.

Gameness can skip generations. No one knows when it will show up but all pit bull people value it above all else. The likelyhood of breeding a game dog is increased by breeding game dogs to each other. Even this is no guarantee they will produce other game dogs. Game dogs are few and far between but they do show up in the breed with regularity.

This gameness is some of the cause of the problems we have today. Since most people do not know what game is they are not prepared if it happens to show up in their pit bull.


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## StBernardLove (Aug 20, 2010)

pancho said:


> Ever since the pit bull has been in the U.S. there has been a hunt for any dog that could defeat them in a match. Years ago some were real serious in their efforts to find such a dog because they would have been able to make quite a bit of money. Just about all breeds were tried and many different crossbreds. No other breed has ever been a serious threat to the pit bull. Most other breeds didn't last 10 minutes against a pit bull. There has been a few crossbreds that have won a few matches. Usually their matches were carefully chosen. The dogs that did win a few chosen matches could never produce anything that could win.
> 
> There are other breeds that are as strong as the pit bull, there are other breeds that have as strong a bite as a pit bull, and there are other breeds that are as atheletic as the pit bull. The one advantage the pit bull has is gameness. When other breeds may quit when they are loosing, the pit bull stays in there. Other breeds will quit when they get hot and tired, the pit bull will stick in there. Other breeds will quit when facing a much larger dog, the pit bull will stick in there.
> 
> ...


Great post pancho.

Also might I add that gameness is what helps APBTs excel in dog sports, search and rescue, therapy work, and as drug dogs. They're willing to do their job in any condition, any situation, even when badly injured, where other breeds would just give up.


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## Haven (Aug 16, 2010)

Like the old saying "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

...........Can someone provide the approximate price range for a pit puppy with good temperment ? , thanks , fordy:cowboy:


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

fordy said:


> ...........Can someone provide the approximate price range for a pit puppy with good temperment ? , thanks , fordy:cowboy:


Bloodlines determine the cost. If you aren't looking for any certain bloodline or for any certain job you can usually find them for free.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

I would like the see the definition of a "good temperament." I see it used most often as a term defining a dog that fits into all situations or the "ideal" pet/family dog. "Good temperament" should define how the breed is supposed to act or expected to act. If that was the case maybe not everyone would think they can own a pit, akita, fila etc. It is this thinking that there is a single "good temperament" across all breeds that gets pits and a lot of other powerful breeds into trouble. Pit bulls do not belong off leash and certianly not at dog parks. Your pitbull may not start the fight at the dog park but it will be the villain in the end no matter what the outcome is because it will fight back. They should not be kept in mulit-dog homes unless the owner wants to take the precautions and separate them when they are not supervised. many times people come home to dead dogs if they are kept together and that happens all to often. They are not the take every were you go with you type of dog, they are not widely accepted by people do to the media. They need to be on a leash or in a kennel 24/7. They should be fixed unless they have a real purpose not to be. Shelters are flowing with more petbulls then they know what do with and if you look at dog fatalities many times attacks happen when the dogs are breeding or about too. I cannot think of any time one should be off leash unless its a trained working dog but most people who keep them as pets or for breeding let them run loose. Very few petbull owners can live up to these requirements. They live in a state of denial that their dogs would ever fight and then when they do fight they stand there dumbfound not knowing how to stop it.
It also does not help that all these rescue groups who have no known background on these dogs and their breeding are telling people they can be rehabilitated and put into the average family home and adopting them out. The "good temperament" or "one type fits all temperament" doesn't exist in pits. They take a special type of person to handle them responsibly. 

To answer the price question, if I were to get a pit from a known blood line that is going to act like a pitbull. I would probably be looking at a couple grand or more. I had a pup lined up for $2500.00 sired by a dog that became a GR. Ch. and later a ROM. I backed out of the sale before the litter was born, glad I did. Funny thing is, he was a large buckskin black masked dog that most people would n't have recognized as a pit. If I was going to buy a scatter bred dog and hope it fits the watered down "good temperament/pet" category I could buy one for $25 bucks on the corner of any city or I could spend $200-300 from a "breeder" that has a pair of petbulls with blood lines that were popular 10 years ago. A little bit more and I can get into the gotti, and humongous pit mixes that are being sold as purebreds. I could also bump up into the showy Am Staff club and get a dog that has been bred for the show ring. Pay $500+ dollars for a pup with limited AKC registration. Those dog will fight just like any other pit, though they are rarely game. 

I knew a breeder who had a pack of show Am Staffs in their house coexisting peacefully. Breeding for the common goal of a "good temperament." We were in a training group together and I told her more then once to keep her dogs separated when she is not home. She laughed it off and said I didn't know her dogs, the fighting was bred out of them. Well, she added a new show dog to the house and she came home to a house painted in a blood. The new dog was killed and another was close to death. All the dogs had been fighting, 6 total. You can't show a Am Staff with scars so her show dogs were done with their careers and the fighting wasn't bred out of them yet. 

I guess the point is, it doesn't matter how much you pay for a pit bull or where it comes from, 99% of them will fight another dog if given the chance. Many of them will not "turn on" to other dogs till they are older which leaves many people surprised how their pit that played with all the dogs at the park suddenly fights its best dog pal. If you want a dog that has little inclination to scrap, get another breed.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Go with a Staffordshire Bull terrier.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Right from the Staffordshire Bull terrier Club of American. 



> Because of their impulsive natures, the other cardinal rule of Bull and Terrier ownership is "always think ahead." An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure! When it comes to strange - and especially aggressive - dogs, few Staffords are complete pacifists. Most will not back down if they are attacked or menaced, and some just don't get along with strange dogs, period. This is a physically and mentally tenacious breed; be prepared!


You won't be gaining much other then a dog that is smaller and easier to pick up.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

and they are still being matched by brit equivalents to Mike Vick.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

> Also might I add that gameness is what helps APBTs excel in dog sports, search and rescue, therapy work, and as drug dogs. They're willing to do their job in any condition, any situation, even when badly injured, where other breeds would just give up.


 I know pitbulls were bred for fighting and that's an outdated purpose. I wonder if those fighting qualities can be re-tasked as suggested, or if we'd just be playing with symantics. When I chose a dog for obedience trialing I want the pup to show the most aggresion and dominance I can find .... in a *****. It'll likely always be a Springer or a BC for me though. I know plenty of handlers who trial dogs successfully but I find I just twig faster to a female. Maybe I should try for a dog next time. Its been a while so maybe I need a challenge. 
Still what is the concensous for success in a re-tasked pitbull breeding program, yea or nay? Worth the time breeding/culling?


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

JasoninMN said:


> I would like the see the definition of a "good temperament." I see it used most often as a term defining a dog that fits into all situations or the "ideal" pet/family dog. "Good temperament" should define how the breed is supposed to act or expected to act. If that was the case maybe not everyone would think they can own a pit, akita, fila etc. It is this thinking that there is a single "good temperament" across all breeds that gets pits and a lot of other powerful breeds into trouble. Pit bulls do not belong off leash and certianly not at dog parks. Your pitbull may not start the fight at the dog park but it will be the villain in the end no matter what the outcome is because it will fight back. They should not be kept in mulit-dog homes unless the owner wants to take the precautions and separate them when they are not supervised. many times people come home to dead dogs if they are kept together and that happens all to often. They are not the take every were you go with you type of dog, they are not widely accepted by people do to the media. They need to be on a leash or in a kennel 24/7. They should be fixed unless they have a real purpose not to be. Shelters are flowing with more petbulls then they know what do with and if you look at dog fatalities many times attacks happen when the dogs are breeding or about too. I cannot think of any time one should be off leash unless its a trained working dog but most people who keep them as pets or for breeding let them run loose. Very few petbull owners can live up to these requirements. They live in a state of denial that their dogs would ever fight and then when they do fight they stand there dumbfound not knowing how to stop it.
> It also does not help that all these rescue groups who have no known background on these dogs and their breeding are telling people they can be rehabilitated and put into the average family home and adopting them out. The "good temperament" or "one type fits all temperament" doesn't exist in pits. They take a special type of person to handle them responsibly.
> 
> To answer the price question, if I were to get a pit from a known blood line that is going to act like a pitbull. I would probably be looking at a couple grand or more. I had a pup lined up for $2500.00 sired by a dog that became a GR. Ch. and later a ROM. I backed out of the sale before the litter was born, glad I did. Funny thing is, he was a large buckskin black masked dog that most people would n't have recognized as a pit. If I was going to buy a scatter bred dog and hope it fits the watered down "good temperament/pet" category I could buy one for $25 bucks on the corner of any city or I could spend $200-300 from a "breeder" that has a pair of petbulls with blood lines that were popular 10 years ago. A little bit more and I can get into the gotti, and humongous pit mixes that are being sold as purebreds. I could also bump up into the showy Am Staff club and get a dog that has been bred for the show ring. Pay $500+ dollars for a pup with limited AKC registration. Those dog will fight just like any other pit, though they are rarely game.
> ...


..............Thank you Jason ! I appreciate your effort , I want a pit , but will have too wait until I move too a property where I can fence in my buddy and work with him and we can both become educated . , fordy


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

> Still what is the concensous for success in a re-tasked pitbull breeding program, yea or nay? Worth the time breeding/culling?


My opinion is, no matter how much you cull, you will not get rid of the dog agression. Its a fixed trait in the breed and you cannot change a dogs temperament, you can only control its behaviors through training. Show dogs, such as Am Staffs (The AKC version of the APBT) have not been matched for over many generations and they still have not stopped them from wanting to fight. 



> I wonder if those fighting qualities can be re-tasked as suggested, or if we'd just be playing with symantics.


Yes, they can be retasked and controlled. A pit will never give up no matter what the task is so they have succeed in many dog sports. They are the top notch working dog extraordinaire and that is why they do not make good pets. Washington State had started to pull pits from shelters and train them as drug dogs instead of paying $12k for a imported shepherd with great success. One thing with pits versus the imported herding breeds is they are not as "sharp" to bite someone so often make more civil dogs to being around the public. I know every Malinios and 75% of the GSDs working for my city and county cannot be touched by a civilian because they are too "sharp." 

Three k-9 pits.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

they have fair noses too. some aussies use them for hog dogs and they do it all from start to finish by themselves. one of the top SAR/cadaver teams after 9-11 was an APBT & her handler from LA (i think). the dog insisted on working long after other breeds had quit.
also many mushers have bred them into their huskies to boost the heart in their dogs.
they are a good breed for crossing on greyhounds especially hotbloods for hard lurchers on eastern game like fox, ****, hog & deer. the best of those are good for crossing back onto coldblood greys & stags for more heat on a coyote. good for crossing w/ patterdale terriers for a bit bigger earth dog for use on coyote & badger. good for crossing onto curs, hounds & birdogs for making hard medium/small sized hogdogs. good for crossing into dogs bred for manwork as they boost the heart (gameness).
they should be preserved as the old dogmen made them if only so they can be bred from to improve other breeds or create dogs for a specific need.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Pops do people in the U.S. use dogs often on badger? 

Our badgers are much smaller then the European badgers who can weigh up to 90 lbs. However ours are also more predatory and aggressive so I wonder how they compare as a opponent for a terrier.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

more than you would think but not as much as they could. the dogs of choice for our badgers are large pats, small pits & mixes of the two. our badgers are much tougher fighters than the european. some people use a smaller baying terrier like a JRT and dig to them. then they draw them w/ airedales, bigger pits or running dogs.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Yes, there are non-dog aggressive pit bulls but they are bred from hog hunting bloodlines where the owner/breeder severely culls the dog fighting ones because a catch dog's sole job is to catch the hog and they're cheap to own while the dogs trained to hunt the hogs are more expensive due to the cost and labor on training them. Have been told by some people here and elsewhere that they think those pit bulls aren't purebred pits. I happen to be neutral on that because I've seen pit bulls that are descended from over 100-150 years from the same families used only for hog hunting (way before hog hunting was popular) and they look and act like pit bulls. Even then, some are dog aggressive towards males but I would say the ratio of dog aggressiveness is very low now in certain bloodlines. Also american bulldogs are said to be possibly from those hog hunting bloodlines. ABs can be dog aggressive but usually is male aggressive but have run across a few that are dog aggressive.

As for staffordshire bull terriers, yes, I already know that they can be dog aggressive but was thinking of people who would want a smaller sized dog which they are.

As for fighting dogs in England, there is a rare bloodline called the Fighting Irish pit bull...that is very tiny..around 25 to 35 lbs. Looks and acts like a pit bull but in miniature.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

TedH71 said:


> As for fighting dogs in England, there is a rare bloodline called the Fighting Irish pit bull...that is very tiny..around 25 to 35 lbs. Looks and acts like a pit bull but in miniature.


25-35 lbs. was the normal match weight of most pit bulls. Some were bigger but not much. 25 was on the smaller side but not unusual. There were many more 35 lb. match dogs than there were larger dogs.
The larger dogs were just too slow and clumsy.


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## StBernardLove (Aug 20, 2010)

Ross said:


> I know pitbulls were bred for fighting and that's an outdated purpose. I wonder if those fighting qualities can be re-tasked as suggested, or if we'd just be playing with symantics. When I chose a dog for obedience trialing I want the pup to show the most aggresion and dominance I can find .... in a *****. It'll likely always be a Springer or a BC for me though. I know plenty of handlers who trial dogs successfully but I find I just twig faster to a female. Maybe I should try for a dog next time. Its been a while so maybe I need a challenge.
> Still what is the concensous for success in a re-tasked pitbull breeding program, yea or nay? Worth the time breeding/culling?


It depends. For many who want the breed, but don't want the aggression, yeah, I suppose it's worth it.

The problem I have with it is, their gameness, which dog aggression stems from (they aren't bred to be dog aggressive, but game) would die out eventually, which to me is what makes the breed, gives them their heart and personality, and their will to do their job to the end. Breeding them away from their gameness would eventually leave you with a lab in a pit bull body.

This has already been attempted by AmStaff breeders for the past 70(I think?) years, and you still end up with many dog aggressive AmStaff. It is also being attempted by good AmBully breeders (but they are few and far between), and has been for 20 years, and you still get many dog aggressive dogs.

You can redirect the energy into any form of work or sports, but no matter how tired or heavily trained the dog is, there is always the ability and will to fight, as they are bred to do their job to the end (bred to be game). If they weren't game, then they wouldn't be the good working dogs and athletes that they are.

Also they are terriers. Dog aggression is common in all terriers to an extent. The job of terriers is to rid the world of vermin, for APBTs, dogs are on the vermin list.

"The Terrier is a dog designed for individual acheievments in game bagging sports, they have a take no prisoners attitude and go all out when nature calls. By placing a Terrier in a highly stimulated environment where heirchy is present, you are only begging for trouble, and trouble is what you will get when the Terrier is confronted with conflict. It does not matter how much training has been done either, when the Terrier has been challanged or has been physically engaged in combat, you can bet your sweet butt that the Terrier will push forward and preservere with all the tenacity and heart it can muster to vanquish the opposing foe to the death. That is what Terriers do, they were designed for that exact behavior, you cannot train it our of them, you can only manage it at best. "

I personally would be sad if my dog didn't have these qualities.^^^^^ I'd still love her, but she would only be a shadow of the dog she is now.


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## Txrider (Jun 25, 2010)

Haven said:


> The Pit was originally bred for gameness with other dogs only. Men had to be in the pit handling them and dogs who showed any aggression towards people would be killed. Aggression towards humans is not normal for this breed, and not what it was developed for...The Staffy Bull for instance has been known as the "Nanny Dog" throught history because of it's great ability to interact with kids.


Other dogs, bears, bulls, they do call them bull dogs a for a reason... Bull baiting.

It's a modification of prey drive though, and can be subject to predatory drift to other species including humans, just like it can with any dog.

The difference is that pits are bred for gameness, persistence, not letting go or stopping an attack until the target is dead.

Most dogs bite and release, they bite to make people leave an area, leave them alone, and don't get into the mind state of latch on and don't stop until one of us is dead.

Pits aren't the strongest dogs, or the biggest, they don;t even have the most powerful bite. The danger is that once one decides to attack, it doesn't want to stop and even beating it only makes it want to hold on and attack more. It simply what it was selectively bred to do, like a herding dog is selectively bred to chase, but not attack..


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

Txrider said:


> It's a modification of prey drive though, and can be subject to predatory drift to other species including humans, just like it can with any dog.


It is my understanding that it is "fight drive" which compels the pit bull to fight, and this is different and distinct from prey drive. Fight drive has to do with dominance and social aggression. I don't think pit bulls see other dogs as prey, but I could be wrong on this.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Prey drive is the desire to chase and catch.

Defense drive is the drive to defend oneself. 

All dogs have prey and defense drives but it can very between dogs. 

Prey drive is the most talked about drive so its often misused with defense drive being the most misunderstood.

Gameness is the most misunderstood trait in dogs. I won't call it a drive because not every dog has it. Gameness has nothing to do with prey drive, dog agression, attacking things, domination. etc. Sometimes it is mistaken for the defense drive which ABPT generally have a lot of. Gameness is a trait that only APBTs have shown to produce consistently and even then a small percentage of the breed is game. Many people think that a dog winning matches is game but the truth is, the loser is often the one proving their gameness. Gameness is often referred to as a variable trait in breeds, such as the dog is very game or has little gameness. This is incorrect and that idea has come from other terrier breeds that are not game. It is being used incorrectly to describe how hard their dog is on prey animals. A dog is either game or it is not and even with in APBTs most are not. A lot of dogs end up "dead game" before they are found to be game. Meaning they fought and scratched till they were killed. The luckier dogs are determined game before they get killed or they rise up from extreme odds to win. Gameness is a trait that prevents a dog from every giving up despite the odds and how near death it. It is as if any self preservation the dog had has been removed.


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## Wolf Flower (Dec 21, 2005)

JasoninMN said:


> .
> 
> Gameness has nothing to do with prey drive, dog agression, attacking things, domination. etc.


Gameness, as I understand it, is a malfunction of the self-preservation instinct. Most animals will leave a fight when they realize it is in their best interest to do so. An animal that will keep fighting beyond this point either lacks the survival alarm that tells it to stop, or the fight drive is so strong that the survival alarms are overwhelmed or ignored.


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## Willowynd (Mar 27, 2005)

tailwagging said:


> Most breeds of dogs will try and eat a goat. goats seems to have fudge sauce, sprinkles, whipped cream with a cherry on top to dogs.


Or in my dogs case...instead of trying to eat the goats he tries to ummm...procreate.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

lol, Willow! I guess your goats are roamin' around in stilettos and fishnets, huh?


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## Otter (Jan 15, 2008)

Maybe her dog just gets a different message from the fudge sauce and whipped cream...


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

.................After reading thru this thread , sometimes I think we maybe assigning Too many , Specific drives\motivational factrs too dog behavior ! I was the friend of and caretaker for a male Akita for 12 years . For the first 6 months I had him I would feed him along(shows my ignorance about the breed) side a medium sized , female shepard ; she ate very fast and would immediately move too his food bowl and start eating his food ! One morning I heard her screaming like a Stuck Pig , He had rolled her over on her back and was seeking her throat , had I not pulled him OFF , he would have dispatched her in short order even though he was only six months old . 
................It seems too me dogs really only have one drive , other than making more dogs , and that is , Survival . They kill their prey for food , they kill any interlopers who try too steal their food , they kill another animal who attacks them , etc . Maybe this too simplistic on my part and it doesn't explain other behaviors but I am really learning from this thread ! , fordy


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Fordy,

Even when I was a kid, my grandpa would tell me to feed dogs seperately even if they were puppies. My grandpa raised champion pocket beagles who were rabbit dogs. Most dogs will fight over food. Catahoulas can be the worst....I have seen 6 week old puppies fight each other over food.


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## mayfair1 (Sep 16, 2010)

pancho.... I don't know what planet you're on but at 1st i get the impression that you're aggroant.. and now you're all for pitbull?? 

were they originally from Ireland and UK fighting dogs? so how is it that cajun's rule revelence?

A true fighting dogs aren't meant to be human aggression... they would be culled because if you read the history (not talking about cajun rules) you would see that they were the size that is easier to put under your arm underneath long coat to hide them from the police.... So how can they do it if the owner couldn't touch the dog? you said that the history is created by peta? so peta created old illustration of a dogmen holding their dogs under their arm running away from the police???? I don't think so.

pitbulls were imported into USA for many different reason, they were bred bigger to do farm work... it wasn't all about fighting dogs... 

it seems that the pitbulls you see on the media are probably the result of cajun's rules or backyard breeders.... A true pitbull are not human aggression... SOME people interpret the history wrong.
I understand that some fighting pitbull weren't culled when shown human aggression... it is because the owner only cares about money and nothing else.

i own one and they don't bite anything that move. Of course she wouldn't run away if being challenge by another dog but that doesn't means she is too dangerous to keep for pet. She had not even barked or growl or attempt to bite strangers.... Why? because she got low fear level that was bred into her.... If you think about it... they are lot more safer then most other breed. fear / insecure dog bite.

the history did not only says they were created for fighting dogs.... They were originally bred for bull-baiting and when it becomes illegal, people adjust the structure slightly for underground fighting dogs... but that doesn't means they are only good for fighting and nothing else... It is just that they have better advantage then other breed but can be good for just loyal pet.

They were bred for fightings.. but they are NOT fighting dogs. I don't give a crap about how many years of knowlegde you have.. READ properly including outside of cajun's history - cajun didn't create pitbull :doh: but im not going to lie, some of your knowlegde are correct but some aren't.

it is the people like you that shouldn't own pitbull.


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## DamnearaFarm (Sep 27, 2007)

How incredibly mature of you to either register to post this rambling, misspelled, poorly punctuated post. Or else re-register under another name to slam a respected poster. 

Be gone, Troll!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

mayfair1 said:


> pancho.... I don't know what planet you're on but at 1st i get the impression that you're aggroant.. and now you're all for pitbull??
> 
> were they originally from Ireland and UK fighting dogs? so how is it that cajun's rule revelence?
> 
> ...


I will try to explain the best I can.

The cajun rules were not made up by cajuns, that is just a name for a set of rules governing dog fighting. Cajuns didn't have anything to do with it.

The pit bulls in the U.S. were imported fron Ireland and England by people who wanted them for dog fighting, nothing else. Hisory will give the dates and names of the people and the dogs. It will also give match results.

A fighting dog must be aggressive to win. They have to be willing and able to scratch to win. A non aggressive dog will not scratch. The majority of match dogs were not man eaters but some were. If they were a winniner that didn't matter much. It is true the matches were mainly about money. Many families depended on the money earned by a fighting dog. If it wasn't for the money the pit bull would not have ever been imported. In matches according to the cajun rules the handeler will be in the pit with the dog. This doesn't necessarily mean the owner of the dog. Many people were better handelers than most owners and made money by handeling match dogs. A good handeler can win a match and a bad handeler can loose a match no matter what the quality of the dog.

The dogs imported were a smaller type dog. It was mainly a matter of what the dogs were fed. Todays better food and better understanding of dog needs have resulted with a larger dog. The pit bull isn't a large dog to begin with. When a match is made it is by weight. You want the largest dog you can get at the agreed on weight. If you are over you forfeit. If you are under you will have to match against a larger dog. Weight is very important.

You own a single dog which may or may not be a pit bull. You are basing your opinons on that one dog and a distorted reading of a small part of history.

The pit bull was a fighting dog and will always be a fighting dog. Even when people who do not believe their history cause the breed to be banned in most places there will always be a fighting dog. People who breed only for pets do not keep their interest in the breed very long, a flash in the pan. The people who breed for their intened use will continue to do so as they have done for hundreds of years. 

Some people keep the breed for other uses and are quite successful at it. The pit bull is a great breed and can do many different jobs. Being a pet and house dog isn't one of these uses.

If you would have really read my posts you would see I do not own a pit bull and haven't for many years. I do not even judge anymore.
At one time I bred, trained, showed, and matched several champions and grand champions. I shipped to just about every state in the U.S and several other countries. My opinions are a combination of my experience with several hundres dogs I owned and bred, many thousands I judged, pit bull history book I have read and helped write, and a good understanding of the breed.

You base your opinion on a single dog which may not even be a real pit bull.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Mayfair, the difference between you and Pancho is he speaks from experience and you speak from a paragraph you found online about dog history. If you seriously have no idea how Cajun rules played a role in the breed, you need to spend a lot more time researching what you are talking about. It is hilarious that you thought Cajuns developed the breed. It is also funny that you contradict yourself over and over but the best is this line.



> They were bred for fightings.. but they are NOT fighting dogs


In one sentence you say 



> A true pitbull are not human aggression... SOME people interpret the history wrong.


Farther down you add. 



> I understand that some fighting pitbull weren't culled when shown human aggression


Here is a small lesson of history for you, Garners Ch. China man, was a man biter. He even bit his owners. He was not the only man biter out there, but he was a successful match dog. He then went on to be a very successful producer, becoming a ROM. You still see his line being sold today and thousands of the pet bulls have him in their pedigree now, so to say a true APBT is never going to be man aggressive is plain ignorance. One man aggressive dog has been responsible for thousands of puppies being produced and sold. Now that is part of history you will not find in a 2 paragraph description on the dogs. Yes, China man was a true game bred pit.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Gr. Ch. Zebo
Gr. Ch. Haunch
Ch. Spade
Gr. Ch. Queen of Hearts
Ch. Big O
Bullyson
Bolio

All great and famous pit bulls. Thay all have one thing in common, they would eat you up. Every one is a maneater. Every one is in many of the pedigrees of todays dogs. These dogs were not culled. They had another thing in common. None of these dogs were considered pets or house dogs.
All of these dogs were matched.


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## tailwagging (Jan 6, 2005)

Willowynd said:


> Or in my dogs case...instead of trying to eat the goats he tries to ummm...procreate.



LOL either way they seem to be Dessert.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

What a great thread, 7 pages and the nearest thing to an infractable offense so far is treated so respectfully I've just gotta wave the flag a little and remind a few we have a be nice rule here on HT. ............And I'd hate to have to enforce it.


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## wintrrwolf (Sep 29, 2009)

A dog is a dog...until human's decide to make it "better"....
I love dogs, never been bit by a dog (been bit plenty by cats), do I attribute human emotions to doggy behavior hmmm have to get back to ya on that...(glancing over at Nacho (the chiX) hiding under the blanket cause of the thunderstorm)
does a dog feel pain? do dogs feel fear or stress, if a dog is backed into a corner will it attack or run? We human's put our feelings, opinion's and perspective's on animal's because for most people it is the only way they can understand. 
Makes one wonder if dogs had had the forewarning that we human's were gonna mess up their DNA would they still have come out of the forest and joined us by the cook fire? Probable because that hunk of meat over the fire smells pretty darn good...
after all ..a dog is just what humanity has made it


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## mayfair1 (Sep 16, 2010)

JasoninMN said:


> Mayfair, the difference between you and Pancho is he speaks from experience and you speak from a paragraph you found online about dog history. If you seriously have no idea how Cajun rules played a role in the breed, you need to spend a lot more time researching what you are talking about. It is hilarious that you thought Cajuns developed the breed. It is also funny that you contradict yourself over and over but the best is this line.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


when i say "some people don't cull pitbull that shows human aggression" you cut out the bit that i also said it is because they only care about money.. meaning they don't care about rules.
they were bred for fighting.. but not everyone bred them to fight  read it between the line properly no matter how bad their english grammar are.


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## mayfair1 (Sep 16, 2010)

pancho said:


> I will try to explain the best I can.
> 
> The cajun rules were not made up by cajuns, that is just a name for a set of rules governing dog fighting. Cajuns didn't have anything to do with it.
> 
> ...


Oh i have read your post.. i know you dont do any of those things nowadays or own one.. If this was the case there wouldn't be any pet pitbull around because then they would be untouchable? It is not just one dog i am basing on... it is all the dogs i have own (30years of owning pitbulls) and helping out at the rescue centre where there's so many pitbull coming from fighting homes. we all have our own opinion.. but I DISAGREE when you said that pitbull aren't for pet simply because you think they are too dangerous to own.


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## mayfair1 (Sep 16, 2010)

RamblinRoseRanc said:


> How incredibly mature of you to either register to post this rambling, misspelled, poorly punctuated post. Or else re-register under another name to slam a respected poster.
> 
> Be gone, Troll!


:bouncy:


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

mayfair1 said:


> Oh i have read your post.. i know you dont do any of those things nowadays or own one.. If this was the case there wouldn't be any pet pitbull around because then they would be untouchable? It is not just one dog i am basing on... it is all the dogs i have own (30years of owning pitbulls) and helping out at the rescue centre where there's so many pitbull coming from fighting homes. we all have our own opinion.. but I DISAGREE when you said that pitbull aren't for pet simply because you think they are too dangerous to own.


The pit bulls you see in the rescue centers are not match dogs. Match dogs are to valuable to give up. Why give up a dog when you could sell it for several thousand $$? The dogs you see are from pet homes and from those who believe everything peta reports. 

People who raise match dogs do not let the public around their dogs and usually do not sell to the public. You cannot contact them, they will contact you if you have the qualifications and knowledge.

You might take notice of the pit bulls that make the papers and news. None are match dogs. All of the attacks has been by pets. Not a single match dog has ever made the news by attacking another person. Tjhe people who own match dogs know how to handle their dogs and have no need of rescue centers. Tjhose people who raise pet bulls fill the shelters with their dogs every time there is an attack or when their dog gets to be too much trouble.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Here are some fatalities from pitbulls this year. Note that none of them are fighting dogs, they were all kept as pets. One even came from a animal shelter. Pitbulls are great in the right hands with a job to do. They need a outlet for their energy and agression. They are NOT family pets. Now I do believe there is a reason behind every attack listed, but those reasons are not going to make any difference to the families of the deceased. While I am against breed bans, I do believe in stricter punishment for people who own dangerous dogs. A dog kills someone and they get charged with animals at large, a little slap on the wrist, or a baby is killed by their dads pit and no charges are pressed because it was an "accident." CHARGE THEM WITH MURDER for carelessly owning these dogs. If there were some consequences for people owning dangerous dogs, maybe they would take owning a dog a little more serious then. 

If rescues want to adopt a pitbulls out they should include a breaker stick in their adoption packet and a on site demonstration how to get a pitbull to release its grip. After all they are promoting responsible pet ownership right? Then they need to adopt out responsibly. I would bet 99% of people who adopted a pitbull have no idea what a break stick is. 

*
Warning some of the following accounts are pretty graphic. *

*These attacks have all taken place this year. *



> Omar Martinez
> 3-years old | Apple Valley, CA
> Omar Martinez, 3-years old, was killed by his family's pet pit bull. The toddler was bitten on the throat by the dog in the backyard after his father briefly stepped away. According to Art Bishop, a deputy chief with the Apple Valley Fire Protection District, when firefighters arrived, the pit bull, covered in blood, came out and started to attack them. Paramedics were forced to retreat to their vehicles until deputies arrived. Upon arriving, a San Bernardino County Sheriffâs deputy shot the dog dead. Rescuers were able to administer CPR as they rushed the boy to St. Mary Medical Center in Apple Valley. Martinez was pronounced dead shortly thereafter. Investigators concluded that there was no evidence of negligence and that the boy's death was a "misfortunate incident."





> 56-years old | Chicago, IL
> Johnny Wilson, 56-years old, was mauled to death by his daughter's six pit bulls. The daughter, who was reportedly breeding and selling the dogs, told authorities that she came home and found her father laying on the living room floor covered in blood. It was reported that Wilson suffered severe head trauma, including having both his ears bitten off and at least one of his eyes mauled. An autopsy by the Cook County medical examinerâs office showed that Wilson died of hemorrhaging from multiple injuries from a dog attack. His death was ruled as accidental. Authorities seized four adult pit bulls and two puppies from the home. There was no history of mistreatment to the dogs and neighbors say Wilson had never seemed to have any problems with the dogs in the past.


\



> Christine Staab
> 37-years old | Philadelphia, PA
> Christine Staab, 37-years old, was mauled to death by one of her mother's six pit bulls. The victim had gone to her mother's home early that morning and the two reportedly had an argument, which set the dog, named Jade, off. The pit bull latched onto Christine's throat, killing her. The dog did not let go of the victim until being shot to death by Philadelphia police officers (a second pit bull was also shot dead at the scene). Christine's stepfather, Thomas Fowler, and mother, Barbara Erb, defended their pet pit bulls on local news stations. Erb described the six pit bulls as "house dogs" that were well cared for and even microchipped for identification. "They were spoiled rotten," Erb said. "They were not neglected in any way." Both Fowler and Erb pleaded with authorities to have the remaining four pit bulls seized by authorities returned to them.





> Jane Doe
> 5-days old | Conyers, GA
> Jane Doe, 5-days old, was killed by the family pit bull. According to a Rockdale County Sheriffâs Office press release, the mother of the 5-day old baby girl heard the infant crying and found the pet pit bull on top of the babyâs bassinet. The bitten infant was taken to Rockdale Medical Center then airlifted to Childrenâs Healthcare of Atlanta at Egleston for surgery. The infant was listed in critical condition and died five days later, February 23, from the injuries.





> Ethel Horton
> 65-years old | Lucknow, SC
> Ethel Horton, 65-years old, was attacked by a pit bull while trying to beat the dog off her husband. According to the Lee County Coroner, Horton suffered severe injuries in the attack as well as undergoing a heart attack. She was pronounced dead on the scene. Her husband, Jerry Horton, was rushed to Carolina Pines Regional Medical Center with serious injuries. At the time of the attack, Ethel and her husband were dog-sitting their nephew's pit bull named Brutus.





> Nathan Aguirre
> 2-years old | San Bernardino, CA
> Nathan Aguirre, 2-years old, was fatally mauled by the family's pit bull. At the time of the incident, the boy had been riding his tricycle and playing with his father in the family's fenced-in yard. When his father stepped away briefly, the mother, who was in the house, came out to check on the child. She found the boy in the pit bull's mouth. The mother screamed and the dog dropped the injured child. Nathan was rushed to Loma Linda University Medical Center and underwent immediate surgery. He was pronounced dead about 6 hours later. The one-and-a-half-year old male pit bull, who had been with the family for about 3-months, was seized along with another family pit bull that was not involved in the attack.





> Savannah Gragg
> 9-years old | Kokomo, IN
> Savannah Gragg, 9-years old, was severely mauled by the family pit bull as she opened the door to let the dog out. Instead of going outside, the animal jumped on the girl knocking her to the ground, bit into her neck and "shook violently," according to the Howard County Sheriff's Department. Savannah's grandmother witnessed the attack and managed to free the child. Deputy John Cipriano responded to the scene. He reported the girl was unconscious and unresponsive and had stopped breathing twice before medics arrived. Cipriano performed CPR and restored her breathing. Savannah was rushed to Howard Regional Health System then airlifted to Riley Hospital for Children in Indianapolis. She survived 5 days before succumbing to deadly trachea and neck injuries inflicted by the dog





> William Parker
> 71-years old | Memphis, TN
> William Parker, 71-years old, was on his way to a nearby store when two loose pit bulls attacked. Parker's daughter, Gardenia, found her father still being attacked, "When I got there, the dog had already tore both his legs to pieces. No skin, just bones there," she said. Parker was in cardiac arrest by the time paramedics arrived and died shortly thereafter. About 30 minutes earlier, the same pit bulls attacked Kevin Stringfellow. Just two days earlier, police received a vicious dog call about these pit bulls, but by the time they arrived, the dogs' owner, Bernard Humphrey, had secured the animals. Police arrested Humphrey on an unrelated charge and took him into custody, leaving the dogs behind. Two days later, Sherry Wooten released the dogs setting off the events that led to Parker's death and the injury of four others. Wooten is charged with Reckless Homicide and four counts of Felony Reckless Endangerment.





> Jacob Bisbee
> 2-years old | Concord, CA
> Jacob Bisbee, 2-years old, was mauled to death by his step-grandfather's pit bulls. Police said the dogs attacked the boy when he walked into the garage. The victim's grandmother and uncle were in the house at the time, as was the boy's brother. The dogs' owner, Steven Hayashi, was not home during the incident. Within hours, authorities arrested Hayashi on suspicion of child endangerment and owning a mischievous animal that causes great bodily injury or death. The three offending pit bulls were seized along with two more that Hayashi kept in his yard. The next day, from a jailhouse interview, Hayashi admitted that one of the dogs had killed his pet Chihuahua a year earlier. But he said he never believed his dogs would attack Jacob. *He also said that he ended up with 5 pit bulls because the pit bull he adopted from a Lake County animal shelter was pregnant.*





> Jerry Yates
> 69-years old | Mountain Ranch, CA
> Jerry Yates, 69-years old, was mauled to death by two pit bulls owned by Sheryl Sellers, a friend of Yates' family and a tenant living on his property. Jerry's son discovered the gruesome scene -- his father horribly bitten, bloody and dead -- but he first had to contend with the pit bulls that tried to attack him. The coroner said the dogs continued biting Yates even after he died. Investigators immediately arrested Sellers and charged her for allowing vicious animals at large.





> Jason Walter
> 7-years old | Marshall County, IL
> Jason Walter, 7-years old, was mauled to death by four dogs while in the gravel driveway of the Eric Shanklin farm. The boy's mother was in a relationship with Shanklin and the two had spent the night at his farm. One of the dogs, a shepherd-mix, belonged to Shanklin. The other three dogs, all pit bulls, belonged to a rental tenant on his property. Karen Brady and her dogs had only moved in just a few months earlier. After the attack, a cable installer and mechanic called authorities and reported that they had been menaced but not bitten by at least one of Brady's pit bulls.


How much more proof does a person need these dogs do not make good family pets? They are working dogs, not pets!


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

Was told by a dog fighter that Bolio passed down a gene for weak legs. I didn't understand what he meant but he made it clear he wouldn't own any dogs that was descended from that particular dog.


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## Ellen West (Sep 17, 2010)

See calaverasenterprise.com for details on our latest dog mauling tragedy - a Vietnam vet killed by 2 pit bulls. Several months ago a Concord todler was killed in her garage by her family's dog. Is it worth keeping this breed alive?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ellen West said:


> See calaverasenterprise.com for details on our latest dog mauling tragedy - a Vietnam vet killed by 2 pit bulls. Several months ago a Concord todler was killed in her garage by her family's dog. Is it worth keeping this breed alive?


The breed is worth keeping alive. The one problem the breed has is the people who think they are doing the best for the breed. Many people will decide that it is the way the dog was raised that causes it to be what it is.
They usually don't have very much experience with working dogs. They usually make their decision on what they see in a single dog. They do not take into account the hundreds of years of breeding behind the dogs.

The breed was developed to be a working dog. They have very high drive and need an outlet for their energy. In the past this was channeled into a warrior. They were selective bred for that purpose. They are the greatest in the world at what they were bred for.

If the breed was left to those who know the breed and how to handle it there would not have been any problems. Trouble started when it became popular. Lots of people decided they liked the look of the dog but didn't know how it became to look the way it does.


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## StBernardLove (Aug 20, 2010)

pancho said:


> The breed is worth keeping alive. The one problem the breed has is the people who think they are doing the best for the breed. Many people will decide that it is the way the dog was raised that causes it to be what it is.
> They usually don't have very much experience with working dogs. They usually make their decision on what they see in a single dog. They do not take into account the hundreds of years of breeding behind the dogs.
> 
> The breed was developed to be a working dog. They have very high drive and need an outlet for their energy. In the past this was channeled into a warrior. They were selective bred for that purpose. They are the greatest in the world at what they were bred for.
> ...


:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

I know a couple who are involved in pit bull rescue, the man because he loves the breed, the woman because she wants to help the breed. They have 6 pit bulls in a small 2 bedroom house. No break stick. One day while the woman was home alone, and had all the dogs out, a dog they were watching started barking at something outside, and her female went for the barking dog.

The woman couldn't get her off, while the dog who was barking was being torn up, and now, the other dogs started jumping in. None had collars on, except the dog being attacked. When the woman reached in to try and separate the dogs, her female who started it bit up her hand, and her face. The woman finally had to first try beating the dogs with a metal folding chair, and then threw it through a wall, which luckily startled the dogs into stopping.

She ended up needing a ton of stitches, so did the dog who was attacked. After hearing about this, I offered her one of my break sticks. She'd never heard of one before, and she's been fostering pit bulls for 5+years. I explained it's purpose, and said it'd be good to keep around, even if it's not needed (I have a fire extinguisher, but I'm not expecting a fire), so if there's ever another fight, it can be broken up quickly. She said she couldn't accept it, _it felt like admitting she had no faith in her dogs ability to get along._

Now, these dogs are walked maybe once a month if they're lucky, and go out for a few short potty breaks throughout the day. The folks seem to think that they can just be couch potatoes, and have nothing to do, nothing to occupy them, no way to work off energy. They think I'm crazy for walking my dogs a couple of miles every evening, and making Lucy chase the flirt pole for at least 20 minutes afterwards.

I just wanted you all to get a picture of some folks that are in pit bull rescue, and why and how the breed is being loved to death. And why I can't involve myself in rescue, until I find one that will send me home with a break stick when I take my foster.


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## Ravenlost (Jul 20, 2004)

pancho said:


> ...If the breed was left to those who know the breed and how to handle it there would not have been any problems. Trouble started when it became popular. Lots of people decided they liked the look of the dog but didn't know how it became to look the way it does.


So which breeder started selling his dogs to the general public? Sounds like all these attacks are his fault!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Ravenlost said:


> So which breeder started selling his dogs to the general public? Sounds like all these attacks are his fault!


John Colby was about the first to sell to the public. He was one of the original importers of the breed. He is known as the father of the pit bull breed in the U.S. Many of the original importers considered him a puppy peddler. His family still breeds the same bloodline today. They are no longer considered one of the better bloodlines.


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## StBernardLove (Aug 20, 2010)

pancho said:


> John Colby was about the first to sell to the public. He was one of the original importers of the breed. He is known as the father of the pit bull breed in the U.S. Many of the original importers considered him a puppy peddler. His family still breeds the same bloodline today. They are no longer considered one of the better bloodlines.


Although I'm sure if he could see what's happening to the breed he helped create, he never would have done it in the first place.

Also back then, people still understood dogs and treated them like dogs, dogs still got worked and had a job to do, they didn't think it was all how you raise them, and that you can love aggression out of a dog. It was still acceptable for dogs to catch, kill and eat loose cats, rabbits, birds etc. But as time went on, and the general public became more weak, irresponsible, and down right dumb, problems started arising. Now if a pit bull catches a stray cat, it's a baby eating killing machine. If a pit bull bites someone, it's the dog's fault, not the fool who didn't properly contain it, or put it down when it showed signs of human aggression.


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## lasergrl (Nov 24, 2007)

All of this has been very interesting. I work at a large vet hospital and have seen many of the employees bitten. I always comment, that we dont have any tools in case these dogs descide that they actually know how to bite. They are of the mind set that pets are people sometimes. Time outs dont work when a dog is out for your blood.
I like this video. Very educational for anyone that would be around this breed.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mevd_GETOKM[/ame]

http://www.pbrc.net/breaksticks.html


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

I have break sticks. Always did. Mainly for catch dogs on hogs. The wooden ones are not advisable for hog hunting because they can splinter or get so water logged (if you have to go swimming) that once you use it, it's basically like paper. What I use is pieces cut up and shaped like break sticks from cutting boards. You know...the white cutting boards you use when you cut up veggies or meat. Those are excellent for break sticks, believe it or not. If you don't have one and a dog gets into a fight (pit or not) you can get the dog to dislodge using two methods. One will cause extreme pain no matter what the breed and the other method just creates discomfort enough to make the dog let go of the other dog. What methods? One is what I call the Vulcan pinch. You grab the dog in the hind leg area where the leg joins the body. Pinch really hard on the ligament or leg muscle in the area where the leg meets the body. The dog will let go. The other method is to put a stick into the anal area. Guaranteed either way to work, lol. I have not used the anal method though. Just the Vulcan pinch. It worked. You can test it on your dog and see what the dog's reaction is. I bet the dog will attempt to bite you even if the dog is a golden retriever!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

TedH71 said:


> I have break sticks. Always did. Mainly for catch dogs on hogs. The wooden ones are not advisable for hog hunting because they can splinter or get so water logged (if you have to go swimming) that once you use it, it's basically like paper. What I use is pieces cut up and shaped like break sticks from cutting boards. You know...the white cutting boards you use when you cut up veggies or meat. Those are excellent for break sticks, believe it or not. If you don't have one and a dog gets into a fight (pit or not) you can get the dog to dislodge using two methods. One will cause extreme pain no matter what the breed and the other method just creates discomfort enough to make the dog let go of the other dog. What methods? One is what I call the Vulcan pinch. You grab the dog in the hind leg area where the leg joins the body. Pinch really hard on the ligament or leg muscle in the area where the leg meets the body. The dog will let go. The other method is to put a stick into the anal area. Guaranteed either way to work, lol. I have not used the anal method though. Just the Vulcan pinch. It worked. You can test it on your dog and see what the dog's reaction is. I bet the dog will attempt to bite you even if the dog is a golden retriever!


Neither method will work for a good pit bull. Match dogs have been known to loose legs and still scratch. I knew one dog with 3 artificial legs. He lost all but one in a match, he won. it will probably work with just about all other breeds but if it works on a pit bull it should be culled.


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

pancho said:


> Neither method will work for a good pit bull. Match dogs have been known to loose legs and still scratch. I knew one dog with 3 artificial legs. He lost all but one in a match, he won. it will probably work with just about all other breeds but if it works on a pit bull it should be culled.


Reminds me of that joke about the pig with the wooden leg.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

pancho said:


> Neither method will work for a good pit bull. Match dogs have been known to loose legs and still scratch. I knew one dog with 3 artificial legs. He lost all but one in a match, he won. it will probably work with just about all other breeds but if it works on a pit bull it should be culled.


i hope that SOB was retired to stud cause you just can't get more game than that.
it's not just pitbulldogs that should ignore the pinch & the pooper tricks any good bulldog of any kind should ignore both.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

pancho said:


> Neither method will work for a good pit bull. Match dogs have been known to loose legs and still scratch. I knew one dog with 3 artificial legs. He lost all but one in a match, he won. it will probably work with just about all other breeds but if it works on a pit bull it should be culled.


That just seems so cruel that people would allow dogs to do that to each other. I do realize that times and cultures are different, but Wow. I cannot even imagine humans encouraging dogs to fight to the point of loosing limbs and calling it a sport. I'm glad cultures have changed to make this unacceptable, and especially that our culture doesn't allow it. How could the people stand at a ring and watch that? doesn't it pull their heartstrings at all? What is the mindset behind that? You explained it in such picturesque detail, and it's just tragic to me.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

mekasmom said:


> That just seems so cruel that people would allow dogs to do that to each other. I do realize that times and cultures are different, but Wow. I cannot even imagine humans encouraging dogs to fight to the point of loosing limbs and calling it a sport. I'm glad cultures have changed to make this unacceptable, and especially that our culture doesn't allow it. How could the people stand at a ring and watch that? doesn't it pull their heartstrings at all? What is the mindset behind that? You explained it in such picturesque detail, and it's just tragic to me.


For many it wasn't really a sport. It was a way to make a living. Many of the Irish that came to the U.S. were looked upon much like the Mexicans of today. Making a living wasn't easy. Making a living matching dogs was quite a bit of work but for many that was the only way they had to buy food. Getting a dog ready for a match is 30-90 days hard work with no time off. You cannot take a day off from conditioning.

It is very hard for people who don't have experience with the breed to understand. They know you do not encourage dogs to fight, you allow the dogs to fight. Anytime a dog chose to stop fighting the match was over. They could stop anytime they wanted to. The opponent was very glad to see the competition decide to stop. This meant less damage to their dog. Some matches were won and lost without the dogs ever seeing each other.

There were rules, just like any other sport. These rules were carefully watched and any infraction of the rules meant the end of the match. If you broke any of the rules you automatically lost the match. With money on the line for the winner each side were very careful to watch for and obey the rules.

Many of the matches resulted with minor damage to the dogs. The matches that resulted in death or severe damage to the dogs were few. The dogs were in the top shape and had been getting in shape for 30-90 days. They were at the peak of condition and recieved the best of care.

It is a different life and most people cannot understand it. The dogs were selective bred for combat. This is one problem we see today. Now the majority of pit bull owners have little knowledge about the breed. They consider them just another breed of dogs that can be treated like other dogs.
This is a bad mistake and others usually have to pay for their lack of knowledge. Back when there were matches the majority of people knew what the breed was and what they could do. The pit bull was not a pet. There were no free running pit bulls. There were no attacks.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

pancho said:


> It is a different life and most people cannot understand it. The dogs were selective bred for combat. This is one problem we see today. Now the majority of pit bull owners have little knowledge about the breed. They consider them just another breed of dogs that can be treated like other dogs.
> This is a bad mistake and others usually have to pay for their lack of knowledge. Back when there were matches the majority of people knew what the breed was and what they could do. The pit bull was not a pet. There were no free running pit bulls. There were no attacks.


I guess if we came from that time and culture, we could understand it better. And comparing a dog to feeding your children puts it into a better perspective too.

You are so eloquent in describing the breeding of the pitbull. I can certainly understand why they are such a dangerous breed. It is completely logical when you consider that they were bred to fight.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

................Was just perusing a couple of websites advertising Blue Nose Pitts . Very impressive animals they show on these websites , too overtly muscled Up it seems too me . Legs splayed so wide when in their natural stance that they look like they would have trouble walking . These dogs look like they were bred strictly for fighting or Hog Hunting . This has been a very interesting thread ! , fordy


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

fordy
those dogs are actually crossbreds some people call them american bully but they are just glorified mutts. they are completely worthless for matching and most wouldn't do squat on a hog.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

Pops2 said:


> fordy
> those dogs are actually crossbreds some people call them american bully but they are just glorified mutts. they are completely worthless for matching and most wouldn't do squat on a hog.



.............P2 , well too my untrained eye they look pretty strong ! It's very educational reading the posts of Youse guys , what have extensive knowledge of the pitt breed and all its twists and turns . , thanks , fordy


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

fordy said:


> ................Was just perusing a couple of websites advertising Blue Nose Pitts . Very impressive animals they show on these websites , too overtly muscled Up it seems too me . Legs splayed so wide when in their natural stance that they look like they would have trouble walking . These dogs look like they were bred strictly for fighting or Hog Hunting . This has been a very interesting thread ! , fordy


Those are not pit bulls, they are crossbreeds. The overtly muscled up dogs are too slow, not strong enough, not enough wind, not athletic, and have poor bone structure. The wide chest is not something a person looks for in a pit bull. A deep chest is needed. The wide chest causes a dog to be short winded. Many of the dogs cannot run across a normal size yard without being out of breath. Muscles need to be long, not short and bunched up. Long muscles give more power. The wide stance and splayed legs causes the dog to be very slow, clumsy, and lets another dog break the leg very easy.

They were bred strictly for looks. They cannot hunt hogs. They would be unable to catch a hog and would be killed if they got anywhere near a hog. They are far from a fighting dog. They will not fight and would last less tha 3 minutes if they would try.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

Fordy, these are all famous pit dogs of the past. Look at their build.





































Now compare it to these gotti dogs and razors edge dogs.



















The game bred dogs are not much to look at but they would put a wrecking on any of these blue dogs.

Those large muscle bound dogs were created for looking at and that is it. Plus they have had bulldogs, mastiff and other dogs added to their blood to increase size, bone and alter there build.


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## Reptyle (Jul 28, 2005)

I like the look of the dog in the second pic.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

but that is what happens when people who are ignorant of the job breed what they THINK the dog should LOOK LIKE for the job. also the reason i'll never shell out real money on a dog bred SOLELY to be a show dog.


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## Pops2 (Jan 27, 2003)

nowadays i automatically ignore any mention of red noses or blue dogs. any mention of large heads or giant size is a 100% garauntee of crossbreeding.
on what Pancho said about the wide chest, if it's noticeably wider than deep then you lose a lot of endurance. the ideal chest for holding is barrel chested (all the best hog catching breeds are barrel chested) barrel means equal distance rib to rib as spine to sternum. the best chest for endurance is noticeably greater from spine to sternum than rib to rib (scenthounds, pit bulldogs, and so on). however if the chest is too deep (slab sided like most show bred greyhounds) you again lose endurance.
there is a range between the extremes where wider chests have more leverage to control a hog or some other animal. but they do give up natural endurance and it takes a ton of roadwork to build up any descent stamina.
the big blues would be marginally better than an english bulldog which have been known to die from a walk around the block.
here is a blue dog that actually could have been matched it's blue paul. the "breed" originated in scotland as a match dog and included the colors blue, grey black & red smut. the last known line went extinct in the 30s. notice the similarities to the later matchdogs, this is a perfect example of form follows function.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

The contracts for a match has the weight of the dogs involved in the match. Most of the contracts do not have the name of the dog. The person signing the contract can bring any dog as long as it makes weight. It doesn't have to be a pit bull. You can see by the pictures the weight of some of the blue fat dogs. It would be possible to bring in a very large dog to match the weight of one of these whales. Really the dog would not have to be very large to defeat them. A dog less than half the size would beat them in very few minutes.

You do not want a dog that carries too much weight in the head, neck, and shoulders. A match dog does most of his work with the hind legs. The large head looks impressive but puts the dog at a disadvantage. Notice the ears on the blue whales then notice the ears on the pit bulls. The short pit cut looks impressive but most match dogs have natural ears. That is for a reason. A match dog does not have to look impressive. It is the results that count not the looks. In many cases it is much better that they don't look like much.
A match dog will be in top condition without an ounce of fat on him. After all he has been getting in condition for some time. Running, swimming, pole work, mill work, and a special diet is part of the conditioning of the match dog.

Even the dog in the 2nd picture should be drawn down a few pounds before a match. It is a very nice looking dog as it is.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

I have friends who have bred pit bulls in which the parents were genetically dog aggressive. The puppies started to fight each other rather seriously at 8 to 10 weeks of age! As for rednoses, yes, there are some dog aggressive ones. As for blues, well..not so much. I always consider anything over 50 lbs to be a mix. Even the guy who originally had the blue pit bulls admitted he bred mastiff into them. Those heavy dogs are often called hippo dogs.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

> I always consider anything over 50 lbs to be a mix. Even the guy who originally had the blue pit bulls admitted he bred mastiff into them. Those heavy dogs are often called hippo dogs.


There are many match dogs that have a chain weight of over 50 pounds and there have been matches with dogs over the weigh of 50 pounds so that is not true.


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