# please teach personal responsibility to your students



## cindy-e

I'm sure you all know this. This is sort of a mini-rant I guess.

I am as dyed in the wool home schooler as they come. I have been doing this for 15 years. But I have a cooperative class right now with some great kids who have just been sitting back and letting mommy handle everything for far too long. Last week I had one tell me that he didn't do his home work because "my mom didn't give it to me." These are late JH, early high school kids!!! 

As a parent of a kid in college now... please, please don't neglect to require your student to take personal responsibility. Please. There is a fine line between administration, inspecting what you expect, following an over arching plan etc... and doting, managing your child's time for them, and hovering. Seriously... It's what is best for the child's future. 

FWIW,
Cindyc.


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## Wolfy-hound

High schoolers NEED to be more independent and taking care of their own schedules and making certain their own work is done and that they set up things on their own. In the next couple years, they may be off to college and expected to take care of themselves.

A lot of senors end up dumping all their grades because the teachers don't do as much for them, and they won't step up and do it themselves. Senoritus. I was lucky in a way, I was used to doing things for myself since before elementary. My parents NEVER said "Did you do your homework? You have to study if you have a test." If I wanted to advance in life I had to step up and do it myself and arrange everything myself. And I ended up with top scores in ACT/SAT/PSAT type tests too.

Kids need to learn to do for themselves. (not as early as me, obviously).


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## Danaus29

One of the women I work with has had problems with one of her son's teachers. It seems the teachers _expect and require_ that parents help with the child's homework. Students who take responsibility for themselves are quickly becoming an endangered specie.


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## cindy-e

I actually do require a lot of parental involvement. It is sad that I have to. I was told that it was unwise to have any communication with a child (online. It is a hybrid class) that the parents are not copied on, so that there can never be anything at all misconstrued. For this reason, everything that I send out to the kid has to go through the parent email. I can understand why that is annoying to a parent. As a parent, it used to annoy me, but that is just the way it has to be. 

But at the same time, what I expect of parents is just awareness and (if it is a new skill) helping a kid get organized, not allowing a child a complete lack of responsibility for his or her own deadlines. And certainly I do not expect the parent to simply excuse work because it wasn't working for them that week. One parent told me they "just ignored" an email from me because they didn't know what it was about. So the take home test the student was supposed to do didn't get done. Still, even if the mom is terribly unorganized, the kid had the syllabus, and knew there was a test going home. He could have asked his mom for it himself. 

Sigh... I just had a mom email that her son is dropping the class. The reason? He is failing his classes because he won't do the work. So... instead of holding him accountable to do what he said he would do when he signed up for my class, she drops it for him, effectively lightening his workload. Yea. That'll teach him. ????? "The result of not doing your work is you get less of it, buddy." He's a sharp kid. It is not an ability problem. I think I might have dropped something else, like any sports or extra activities, time with friends... what have you. Dropping a class to teach a kid to do his school work does not make sense! 

There is just this real "anti-anything-schoolish" attitude in some of the homeschool world around here. Every person has to do what they think is best for their family. This is not a judgement. But if college is in the future of any kid, pretending that they don't need these skills is not helping them. And the particular kid (above) is very bright and only 13. How could he (or his parent) possibly know if he wants to go to school at that age. It just seems to be wise to be prepared. That is all I am saying. I have a kid who has aspergers, and another with dyslexia and mild dysgraphia. One is at school on scholarship currently, and one is most certainly going to get some scholarships next year when she goes. You never know with kids. When they were little, and struggling, I just wouldn't have guessed. 

Anyway, FWIW,
Cindyc.


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## Two Tracks

Thanks for the reminder...


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## Laura Zone 5

Teaching a child work ethic is more important than teaching math.
Teaching a child how to discern, and think and act independently, is more important than science.
Rooting the child in the Word is the single most important thing you will teach (IMHO).

And when the parent instills the above skills, bathed in Scripture?
You will be blessed to see good fruit.
Not perfect fruit, just good fruit.
That has been my experience.

We did not do co-op because it was had the same 'feel' as school:
Pushy bossy control freak mom's.
Kids running wild all over the place.
No discipline, no structure.
And really, no substance.
It was 'playing school' for the 'experience' of school without going to school.
THAT was not for us.


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## Whisperwindkat

I have actually seen this a lot since my child became high school age...children whose parents do everything for them or have little interest in preparing them for a future. I see many parents who think that if they just get through any curriculum then they have done what they should. They don't consider the quality of the curriculum or material that they are using. It's sad, but I see many homeschoolers at the high school level that have no personal responsibility or goals.


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## cindy-e

Laura Zone 5 said:


> We did not do co-op because it was had the same 'feel' as school:
> Pushy bossy control freak mom's.
> Kids running wild all over the place.
> No discipline, no structure.
> And really, no substance.
> It was 'playing school' for the 'experience' of school without going to school.
> THAT was not for us.


That does sound terrible. I wouldn't do that either. I have seen co-ops like that. Actually I almost never do large co-ops for those same reasons. This is just one class that is meeting in someone's home. 

With that said, in late JH, early HS classes, covering everything that needs to be covered in a class that meets one time per week is not really very feasible (if the class is worth anything in terms of content.) Nobody likes homework. If we could conduct the class without homework in one day a week, we would. But if we could, would it be worth a whole class? this class meets for 33 weeks. That is 33 hours of class. Most high school classes in a regular high school meet for at least 180 hours a year. 90 hours if it is a half credit class. And then they often have homework too. So 33 hours of class to learn anything that needs a class isn't very helpful. =) (Unlike some homeschoolers, I do think that some things are better in a class, like literature discussion for example, or logic or public speaking (hard to do without a public. =) 

They have a great time in class. It's a great group of kids in that way. They are really engaged. They ask questions. They are interested. Really smart. But they aren't going to get everything out of the class that they should get if they don't do the homework. 

Because the one day a week structure isn't usually enough for that level of class, most of the classes of which I am aware for that age are a hybrid of things going out over internet during the week and also the once a week in person class. That requires some very clear communication structures (like a syllabus). A syllabus is just a fancy name for a list, really. I use lists to organize my work all the time. Lists work, so I don't have a problem using them in my class. It helps the kids to be successful if they know exactly what they need to either learn or do. 

I set the class up to give the parents an easy vehicle for teaching personal responsibility to the students. They know exactly what should be done, and it is easy to follow up to ensure that it has been done. I have tried to encourage the parents that this type of organization is a skill, and if they will help the kids through it, by the end of the year, the students will probably not need a great deal of help. But it's hard to teach kids to be responsible if I have parents who won't even open an email from a teacher. Sigh...

Every structure has a language. Math, Sciences, spoken languages, computer languages, office jobs and infrastructures, politics, family (even individual families). Like it or not, if a child will go to college, they have to know the language and culture of school. Words like syllabus, deadline, mid-terms.... skills like creating a study guide, engaging in classroom discussion, presenting projects in front of entire groups of people, and writing papers. College will be "a school". And it will function like "a school" whether we want it to or not. I suppose to some, that could make me appear as if I am "playing school" or "being controlling" of what you do or do not do in your home (by assigning homework or requiring that things be turned in formatted a certain way), but my total heart in all of it is the success of the child! I can't tell you how many kids I have seen wash out in college, not because they can't do the work, but because they don't understand the structures of education! It happens. No matter what we in the homeschooling world say. I am aware that home schoolers graduate from college (and go to college) in higher statistical numbers than public schoolers do. But I can tell you from my experience which home schoolers succeed. And it isn't the ones who reject all educational structure in most cases. That is just anecdotal, and YMMV, but it explains a bit of my point of view. 

I know that everybody has different paradigms about what education should be in the home school world. That's OK with me. I am fine with people not joining the class if this type of structure doesn't work for them. But if they are in the class, that is different. Then I expect them to do the work and to learn to be responsible for themselves more and more throughout the year. I expect parents help in moving the kids in that direction through healthy accountability at home. That is their job, like teaching is mine. I don't think that is unfair. I certainly don't think it is unkind or unnecessary. But like I said, YMMV.





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## Danaus29

cindy, the parental assistance requirement was for homework assignments. The parents have to help the kids do their homework. Not an easy thing when both parents work full time jobs on alternate shifts so they don't have to pay for babysitters.

I saw a lot of parents doing their childs work when my kids were in school. All the parents had done a major science project for their kids except for me. My son got a low grade because of "lack of parental assistance". I told his teacher that I had already done my time in school and I had no desire to repeat the experience. My son was proud of himself for doing his all on his own.


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## cindy-e

Danaus29 said:


> cindy, the parental assistance requirement was for homework assignments. The parents have to help the kids do their homework. Not an easy thing when both parents work full time jobs on alternate shifts so they don't have to pay for babysitters.
> 
> I saw a lot of parents doing their childs work when my kids were in school. All the parents had done a major science project for their kids except for me. My son got a low grade because of "lack of parental assistance". I told his teacher that I had already done my time in school and I had no desire to repeat the experience. My son was proud of himself for doing his all on his own.


Wow. No, I don't want the parents to help with actually doing the homework, just being sure that it gets done! Good for you for not doing that! Was the teacher grading you, or your student? Strange.


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## halfpint

Cindy;
I'm having some of the same issues in my Chemistry class this year. I questioned a parent about a student as he was getting all the homework done, but was clueless on the test. She found out he was using the teachers manual to answer the homework problems, but since I create my own tests couldn't do so on them so I knew something was up. I have a student that is probably going to drop. Parent didn't expect him to have to do homework since we meet 2 hours a week. My registration form says to expect 3-5 hours of homework a week. Not sure how anyone could get Chemistry (with labs) done in 2 hours a week. 

I've been home educating for 20 years and the attitude of Home schooled parents now is totally different than when my oldest were in high school.
Dawn


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## Mid Tn Mama

If you have the energy and interest in speaking to these parents about why homework is so important, you could say, " No matter how fun and engaging and hands-on today's class was, your child will not be able to remember it unless there is some work that is self initiated. Unless they use what they learn today all by themselves at home in the assignment, it will have been a useless task.

As for parents helping students--there is a big difference between helping your child understand HOW to do algebra and DOING the algebra for them.


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## cindy-e

halfpint said:


> Cindy;
> I've been home educating for 20 years and the attitude of Home schooled parents now is totally different than when my oldest were in high school.
> Dawn


Yes! absolutely yes. I can't understand it. All of the people I relate to in homeschooling (in terms of goals, ideals, student expectations and etc...) have been doing this as long or longer than I. Many have kids who have gone on to grad school or are married with kids already. Oddly, the fact that we (I include myself in that older group) don't do some things the same way as schools and our statistics are so good is one of the reasons younger homeschoolers cite for why they balk at simple responsibility in a class or anything that looks remotely "schoolish". I don't know what they thought we were doing to get those stats. We made our students do work that we graded and that they (sometimes) did not want to do. We gave them tests and term papers. And yes, they read lots of real book instead of text books. What educational techniques we used, we tailored to the learning style of the child wherever we could. They traveled more and learned from real places and real people. They were not sequestered from real life. But they weren't totally protected from all of the structures of school either! The "new home schoolers" don't want to hear that. So the parents that I work with these days treat homeschool like it was magic. Doesn't matter what you do, if you homeschool, you are going to produce a healthy, productive adult out of any kid under any circumstance as long as you have enough library books in the house. Doesn't even really matter if you are disciplined enough to read them. 

I am not even talking about unschoolers vs other things. Unschooling when done right is very hard, harder than classical (my way of doing things) I think. Child led, but balanced for the child's future world and responsibilities is very hard too. I know people who have successfully done both, but it did not look like what it seems to look like these days (which is not schooling and kids prone to temper tantrums and video game addiction). Those terms don't seem to be defined the same way they used to be. 

I mean, again, YMMV. It's just what I see in the classes that I teach. It gets worse every year. But then again, public school teachers say the same things, so maybe it's just the general state of culture. IDK.


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## Laura Zone 5

cindy-e said:


> I mean, again, YMMV. It's just what I see in the classes that I teach. *It gets worse every year. But then again, public school teachers say the same things, so maybe it's just the general state of culture*. IDK.


It's early, and I'm thinkin'
Be scared.....:shocked:

I like diggin into and learning 'root issues'.
The deep 'whys'.

I guess a great question is WHY do mom's do this?
Why do moms feel they must cover little johnny's butt?
Why do moms feel they need to 'do' the kids work for them?

Do they really think they are helping?
Do they fear they will be exposed as a bad mother?
Did no one help them with anything when they were children?
Are they husbands SO emotionally absent they are substituting their children into his place for that 'attention/affection'?

Is this a pride issue?
Is it a fear issue?
Is it a insecurity issue?
Is it a control issue?

What is it?


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## cindy-e

Laura Zone 5 said:


> It's early, and I'm thinkin'
> Be scared.....:shocked:
> 
> I like diggin into and learning 'root issues'.
> The deep 'whys'.
> 
> I guess a great question is WHY do mom's do this?
> Why do moms feel they must cover little johnny's butt?
> Why do moms feel they need to 'do' the kids work for them?
> 
> Do they really think they are helping?
> Do they fear they will be exposed as a bad mother?
> Did no one help them with anything when they were children?
> Are they husbands SO emotionally absent they are substituting their children into his place for that 'attention/affection'?
> 
> Is this a pride issue?
> Is it a fear issue?
> Is it a insecurity issue?
> Is it a control issue?
> 
> What is it?


very good questions, Laura. I have some thoughts on this, but I really don't know. Some of what you suggest above may very well be in play. Sigh... 

I have to teach today. And I am going to go and totally enjoy the class! The kids will totally enjoy the class. But somebody won't turn in the homework, a guarantee it. Sigh...


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## Laura Zone 5

cindy-e said:


> very good questions, Laura. I have some thoughts on this, but I really don't know. Some of what you suggest above may very well be in play. Sigh...
> 
> I have to teach today. And I am going to go and totally enjoy the class! The kids will totally enjoy the class. * But somebody won't turn in the homework, a guarantee it. Sigh...*


*
* 
So they get a ZERO with no opportunity to make it up.
That's what happens in the real world.


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## cindy-e

Laura Zone 5 said:


> [/B]
> So they get a ZERO with no opportunity to make it up.
> That's what happens in the real world.


Actually, they surprised me and the all turned in their homework. Maybe we are past the part of setting the expectations. They actually reported enjoying the homework, too. Yesterday in class the created persuasive videos using ethos pathos and logos. They were hysterical! LOL! 

I hope we are past the drama now, and we can just get on with the learning. =)

Cindyc.


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## cindy-e

Since we were on this topic this week, I thought I would share why my 1st semester freshman in college has going on this week at college. Do not feel you are doing a disservice to your kids to require academic discipline! 

Here is what ds's midterm in American Political Thought looks like: First, know the amendments, some by number. This is the oral defense part of the exam. Students will be called on in class and they better be able to answer any question the prof asks about any amendment he chooses- out loud & in front of class. They will be thinking questions, not just content questions, requiring you to state and defend a point of view. Study other topics related to constitutional law, reading only the federalists and Tocqueville and be prepared to do the essay part of the exam. Know the topics well. You do not know the actual essay prompts in advanced. Also, bring a 3 page argumentative essay written in advance on the topic, "does the supreme court have the right to determine the constitutionality of a law?" Solid supports for your point of view must be given, but must only reference class materials. This is a two day midterm!

He has two more midterms this week, in Biology (cumulative over lab materials and drawings from the beginning of the year. This is Bio for majors and is way harder than it sounds.) He still has more new content in the bio class this week, and the cumulative midterm for the rest of the bio material will be next week. And in Bible, he also has to write a paper defending the theological idea of the Davidic Line. In Literary traditions of the western world he has to and read four books of the odyssey - which will end in a series of quizzes. 

These are just the major assignments, not the little ones. 

Yep. Be encouraged as you insist on academic excellence from your students. I know it is an adjustment, and sometimes a hard adjustment. But as you see from the above... it is so important! They have to know how to study for larger tests, how to write good papers of various kinds, how to read a syllabus, to manage their time...


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## Evons hubby

Laura Zone 5 said:


> [/B]
> So they get a ZERO with no opportunity to make it up.
> That's what happens in the real world.


Yeppers that's how it worked for me when I was in public school. If it hadn't been for high test scores I would have failed every class instead of D's.


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## SLFarmMI

I think a big part of it is a culture thing. Parents aren't teaching their kids the value of work like our parents taught it to us. In the elementary school I teach at the three 4th grade teachers got fed up with kids not doing their homework so they started mandatory detention. When I left the building on Tuesday, there were 35 kids lined up for detention. That shakes out to a full third of the 4th graders who don't do their work. Pathetic.


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## motdaugrnds

*It is the parents who need the education!*

I worked within an alternative school system throughout my professional tenure...was in the clinical department working with children and their parents. If the parents did not get in the child's way of growing, the school system did! (I even had the Principal knock me out of a therapeutic session once to tell me "Put her back the way she was!" in reference to an older teen who had come to our school a zombie and was now acting out.)

I wrote a poem about this just to let off some frustration: Here it is.

http://motdaugrnds.com/motdaugrnds/educational/parenting/childrencry.html


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## ErinP

> Parents aren't teaching their kids the value of work like our parents taught it to us.


My parents taught me the value of work. And I still have a solid work ethic. 


But homework doesn't fit that category for a lot of kids. 
I certainly wasn't lazy, but I _was_ distractible, disorganized and couldn't understand the value of that history assignment I couldn't find that week. Particularly since I usually got A's on my tests, so obviously I understood what I was doing... 

Consequently, when I saw my ADD son really struggling to keep his poop in a group once the chaos of JrHi hit, I started hearing things like "He's just kind of lazy..." So I pulled him.
He's not lazy. He's a space cadet and horrendously disorganized, but he's not lazy. He needs tools and reinforcement to keep himself on the track. ...Not labels that he's useless!:smack

However, this isn't what cindy was complaining about. Her complaint was kids who drop the ball and then _blame someone else_.


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## SLFarmMI

Actually, of the 35 kids that were in the detention group, only 3 were kids diagnosed with ADHD so I don't think it was an ADHD issue. I was a little proud that of the huge bunch for detention, only 2 were kids on my caseload so hopefully my kids at least are getting the message, "even if it is hard, give it a try".


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## ErinP

I didn't say it was. 
Re-read my post.


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## SunsetSonata

I know this is an older thread, but I just came across it and think the content is important. Failure to teach kids personal responsibility happens everywhere, not just to the homeschooled; far from it. Just nag those kids to get up on time and get things done, don't let them figure out how to complete assignments, help them write their reports, make sure they get those good grades no matter what. And don't change your approach should your child require a set number of nagging sessions to complete any of those things, just keep on preventing the natural consequences of passivity and laziness. Yep, prevent them from experiencing failure until they're in college when failure _is a lot more expensive!_ 

I have seen this happen. Whether homeschooled or in public school, please, it's in everyone's best interests for kids to suffer actual consequences in life WELL before it's time to go out into the world. Learning responsibility starts when YOUNG. Playing catch-up later is nowhere near as effective when their lives have not been BUILT on healthy attitudes.


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