# I will not say no to any family in need.



## illinoisguy (Sep 4, 2011)

I know that many of you are preppers and we talk all the time about opsec and protecting our goods. But to be honest, if someone I knew or didn't know for that matter that had kids were hungry, I would no doubt help them. I am not saying I would give them steak or prime cuts. But I told my wife it might be prudent to buy those small bags of white beans and have multiple cans of spam on hand. Would I eventually eat the beans, yes, so no loss there.

Then if someone is in need comes by, hand them a bag of beans and a can of spam. This is a very wholesome and tasty meal. My wife's grandparents lived off beans daily back in the 30's. They had nothing else. Those will work.

Call me crazy, I just can't say no and while many of you preach "opsec and lying low", I would say most of you have the same heart and would do the same and help those. I've been on here long enough to read many here.


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## NamasteMama (Jul 24, 2009)

I love this hymn and it clearly described how I feel about this... 
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vuyId4VTotA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

I'm trying to store food for my 2 teens, my husband and myself for a year. That's a lot of food. Do the math for a family of four. If my parents and sister's family make it to our house, along with my 26 year old and his family, there will be 16 of us. That makes the year's worth of food only cover 3 months. If I feed the neighborhood too, my 15 & 17 y.o. children will begin to starve in a couple of weeks. My heart wants to feed every stray I see-- logic says it's not possible. JW Rawles says the biggest threat post apocalypse is not zombies but beggars. That family you just gave beans and spam to were hungry. They will be hungry tomorrow too. They didn't prepare in advance, they probably won't save any food to stretch out. Where will they go tomorrow when they are hungry again? What will happen if you tell them no? Who else will they bring for a handout? Will they bring their cousins and grandparents back the next day? I do believe in having a plan for charity, but handing out food at your back door isn't it. Can you take in a child to feed and trust that the child won't unlock the door in the middle of the night for an attack or theft? JW did an excellent article on logistics that I'm unable to locate, but here is his take on charity:
http://www.survivalblog.com/charity.html


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## GarlicGirl (Mar 12, 2010)

I will do what i believe Jesus would do.


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## RubyRed (Sep 24, 2011)

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.


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## pamda (Oct 14, 2004)

The more people who show up, the more work will get done. There is always something needing done. If the worst happens, there will be much work to be done. I will not support anyone able bodied who won't carry their weight, but if you can and you do , you eat and have a warm spot. And any child who needs it gets it, also anyone old and infirm. I do not believe that turning away the few will help me in anyway.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Some of you kind folks need to hunt some of the blogs wrote in country's that have had a break down in the government .:fussin:

One small example was our ice storm a few years back when i fired up the generator and turned the news on they had lines of folks at the Walmart just trying to buy food for supper . They would let a few at a time in cash only $15.00 max . How many people you know that has no cash Now if you live in town how many dozen can you feed  Now suppose this disaster last four days odds of an closed door getting looted is great much less a open door . 

You say more workers for what guards if it is a real SHTF i an't sticking my head out till dark ,and i'm in the country .How many here can survive half a year not going out to a town .

Some that plan coming here in a SHTF deal know getting out of a city may be tough imagine the roads in and out of a city a parking lot .


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Please don't take this the wrong way...

Everything is relative. People have differing views on TSHTF. To some it's a temporary power outage, or relatively localized disaster. In such a case, where only a microscopic cluster of humans are undergoing tragedy, Yes, it's a foregone conclusion, you help everyone, opening your doors to strangers, feeding, sheltering, and clothing them, till in a few days, they can go back to their homes

In a nationwide or planetwide SHTF, one cannot help everyone... If you've prepped for your own family, and x amount of others, any more mouths will mean someone prepped for will go without. Live on a main road? Once even Billy Bob knows the SHTF and everything is different now, you feed Billy Bob and his hunting rig full of family, good luck sending him on down the road... he is gonna camp out, wanting more. IF he did leave, he'd probably return, knowing you had food and he doesn't... and tell all his friends Mr. Prepper has enough to feed everyone. They come, and your nice again, and your years worth of food feeds the masses for a week? maybe, then you and your family starve with the rest of the unprepped masses.

Giving food aid out of the house? Beans? Rice? Sounds good, but if you do, expect to take care of those people until your grub runs out... people do bad things when they get hungry. Many folks smarter than me, have said never ever give food out of your house... if you practice charity, do it through the church... never let anyone know you have plenty... let them think your getting aid from the same church.

More hands make for more workers. True, in the abstract... breaks down in realityville. How many people do you know personally that can work out in the bald burning sun all day, doing back breaking menial labor? Know "of" some Mexicans, but none personally. Let those extra hands show up, and you have to feed them. If you have enough food for a year for four people, and you let some willing hands come in, say two families of four each, you've cut your food supply down to four months. Hopefully you have enough seed stockpiled to grow enough food for a minimum of two years (in case of catastrophe)... if the SHTF in the winter, you've just committed suicide, in that you wouldn't last till the end of the next growing season.

If you plan on feeding everyone that shows up, there's no need to prep at all... especially if you live where other folks can see your place. You theoretically 'could' prep, in the middle of nowhere, have this "help everyone" that shows up philosophy, and survive just fine, as no one would show up, or if they did, it'd be rare.

Now if you live out on the great plains, and have a silo with a hundred thousand bushels of wheat or corn, well, yeah, it 'can' be done.

If you will not say no to any family in need, your essentially telling your own family that they are expendable. That total strangers who scoffed at taking care of their ownselves, are more important than your family, that has scrimped and saved and sweated over a sweaty stove canning up the excess fruit and vegetables (that the 'grasshoppers' wouldn't dream of eating, while Mickey D's and Pizza Hut still exist).

Show up at my place, with a horse trailer full of necessary food, clothing, fuel, supplies, an extensive skill set, and a family of bust a gut workers, and you'd find shelter... Within a few days, we'd have you a house built (own a sawmill and have worlds of timber). Show up overweight, with a hand out, expecting the Holiday Inn, and we have troubles.... (no supplies, no skillsets, an obvious aversion to work)

Suicide isn't pretty.

If you plan on helping everyone, I'd recommend buying tractor trailer loads of grains and putting that food in silos, and all the other accoutrements of civilization...


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

[[[......I will do what i believe Jesus would do. .....]]]]]

Oh yeah. I read about that. He fed hundreds of people with just one loaf of bread. It must be useful to know how to do that.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

While I'd love to help everyone, the bottom line is that God gave our children to us and keeping them safe, healthy and fed is our first responsibility. It's not a matter of the number of hours I've spent canning and preserving, or even the money spent on stocking food. It's the fact that having a soup line at my house will mean my children will go hungry, will be exposed to diseases and also be in danger.

We don't plan to let people hang around. We have some food we'll trade for labor, or give as a handout, but for the most part we are going to appear as hungry as the next person.


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

If I had a family then I wouldn't help anyone I couldn't afford to. Being a guy out here alone, I really don't see myself putting my needs above starving women and children. I understand those who might do that and if its your food then its your right to use it as you see fit.

I'm not really a prepper though, just a homesteader with livestock, veggy plots, and etc..


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## goatlady (May 31, 2002)

How the heck are they supposed to cook those dried beans? Where will they get the water? Do they even have a pot to cook in? Giving someone ONE meal is just postponing their bad situation and leaving yourself wide open to losing everything you and your family worked for.


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## homefire2007 (Sep 21, 2007)

illinoisguy said:


> I know that many of you are preppers and we talk all the time about opsec and protecting our goods. But to be honest, if someone I knew or didn't know for that matter that had kids were hungry, I would no doubt help them. I am not saying I would give them steak or prime cuts. But I told my wife it might be prudent to buy those small bags of white beans and have multiple cans of spam on hand. Would I eventually eat the beans, yes, so no loss there.
> 
> Then if someone is in need comes by, hand them a bag of beans and a can of spam. This is a very wholesome and tasty meal. My wife's grandparents lived off beans daily back in the 30's. They had nothing else. Those will work.
> 
> Call me crazy, I just can't say no and while many of you preach "opsec and lying low", I would say most of you have the same heart and would do the same and help those. I've been on here long enough to read many here.


Illinoisguy, I hear you....I would hope and pray if my children or loved ones were far away, someone would help and feed them. As I will do for others who have mothers, fathers and loved ones.


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

It seems everyone stops at my house when they need directions or help. (probably because my house looks warm and inviting and I have a really wide driveway) I'm willing to help anyone with anything, no problem, I've helped quite a few people with car trouble -- one guy was almost out of oil and I put 4 1/2 quarts in his car, another family in a minivan overheated, and I filled their radiator and engine with antifreeze and water. People have stopped for directions, needed to use the phone because they are broke down, etc. If someone is in need, I'll help them. If they are hungry, I'll feed them. I make the best coffee in the whole county so if they need something to eat, they will also get the best cup of coffee they had in a long time. There is always extra food cooked in the fridge ..... I can share .... it's no big deal. 

If you stopped at my house today and you needed something to eat, you have a choice of sloppy joes with colby cheese, or chicken rice-a-roni with vegetables, grilled romaine lettuce and tomatos, or bisquits, eggs and sausage gravy. (I finished off the roast with potatoes yesterday) For dessert you are stuck having a klondike bar (bg). 
Like I said .... I always have stuff cooked ....I can share. I'm blessed with enough that I can share.

Ohio Rusty ><>

"Captain Smith, do I understand that the Titanic just hit an iceberg?"
"Yes, Mr. Andrews."
"Do you understand that I did not design her for that?"
"I do, Mr. Andrews."
"Well, fine, then. We all win."


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## Harry Chickpea (Dec 19, 2008)

oregon woodsmok said:


> [[[......I will do what i believe Jesus would do. .....]]]]]
> 
> Oh yeah. I read about that. He fed hundreds of people with just one loaf of bread. It must be useful to know how to do that.


There is a pragmatic way to read that parable, and it sorta fits this situation.
Remember that those were the days before McDonalds, and when people went out they carried some food with them, hidden away in their clothing.

When he passed the loaf out, everyone wanted to be seen as partaking, so stuff "magically" appeared out of pockets as the bread was passed. If you think of the mindset of the times, that alone was a miracle. It was perhaps the first BYOB lecture. One of the lessons of it is that people often have resources of their own that they don't think about until pressed.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

We aren't talking helping in good times of plenty . In our ice storm our electric was out 14 days roads were solid ice trees everywhere and roads closed . Now take a down damaged power grid in the winter say 60 days how you going to fair If you live it town those shelves will be bare in 24 hours then what . What others do will be no skin off my nose till they run out in short order . 

Yea today i'll share but that grid goes down and i know things are going to get scarce and no way to get food easy i'm not putty my family in jeopardy for those that didn't prepare for emergencies .Buy your ipods fancy cars spend it all and don't have the needs of life on hand your fault not mine . I hope my preps (if i have any ) are never needed .

For fun reading SHTF School - Real Life Survival Experiences | Page 3 This guy survived a year and said the PTB gave everyone a snow job . See where you would be in case of a large disaster ,riots or a EMP strike .Yea i know can't happen here :thumb:


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## Ohio Rusty (Jan 18, 2008)

Interesting stories Sawmill Jim of the SHTF school ..... Enjoying the read. I agree totally with his thoughts about buying gold and silver vs. buying useful things like preps, ammo, barter supplies, etc.

Thanks for the link !!

Ohio Rusty ><>

"Captain Smith, do I understand that the Titanic just hit an iceberg?"
"Yes, Mr. Andrews."
"Do you understand that I did not design her for that?"
"I do, Mr. Andrews."
"Well, fine, then. We all win."


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

There was a time i felt that way too, but i am finding i am changeing my mind.
Some people now think others owe them. To the point that rather than to grow a garden they go to the goverment to ask for more hand outs. When it is pointed out to them that we no longer have it to give, they don't seem to care.
Last night a person on the tv, said it was ok for our country to allow food stamps to be used to buy drugs and prostitutes.
My dh and i do for our selves, some times we both hurt so bad at the end of the day we cann't hardly move to go to bed. But these people want others to do for them. 
It's not a good place to be in to feel that you would turn people away, but that is where i am at and i am afraid that is where more and more people will be before this is over.


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## pumpkin (May 8, 2012)

We would be saying no to anyone in need. We have prepared to take care of our family. In a serious situation where law and order and the normal way of life has broken down you do not know how long you will be on your own and the only help you have is yourself. What we have on hand will feed 8 for a year and maybe longer. This does not even include all of the family. If we start to care for others then our 8 will not have enough for a year. If there was one slice of bread left and the choice was to give it to my child or half to my child and half to a stranger I would give it all to my child. This is when you understand just what a Sophie's Choice means.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Ohio Rusty You welcome:bow: 

It is amassing even now how some act can you imagine if they were hungry what you would have to contend with .eep:

There is another blog by a guy from Zimbabwe but haven't found it yet .


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

RubyRed said:


> Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.


True.

Teach a man how to fish, while the world's awash in fish, and he eats for a lifetime...

However, if you try and teach a man how to fish, after all the fish are gone, he starves and you've wasted your time.

Currently, the world is awash in food, supplies, gear, anything your heart desires, can be had (if you have the cash). If one supposedly doesn't have the cash, look at their lifestyle and see the waste... alcohol, smokes, drugs, eating out, new cars, new homes, new yada yada yada. Teach others to forego the ephemeral pleasures and plan for their own future, in a time of chaos. It's a moot point, afterwards...


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

homefire2007 said:


> Illinoisguy, I hear you....I would hope and pray if my children or loved ones were far away, someone would help and feed them. As I will do for others who have mothers, fathers and loved ones.


If you prep already, surely your children and loved ones have been exposed to the same philosophy. There is no reason your children or loved ones shouldn't be prepped and ready (for bear), right now. If they're in school, there's always room for a couple of suitcases or backpacks. If they have a car or preferably, a truck, it can be stocked with months worth of food and supplies. Mine is.

I don't have any children, but if I did, they'd have all the supplies they need with them, if they were away at school, or living far off. Only one niece, a thousand miles away, and she's coming around, realizing her family is better off trusting themselves, than strangers.

The Kindness of Strangers, I fear, will be a scarce commodity, once the fuel trucks and food trucks stop rolling, and the grocery stores and walmarts shelves are empty.


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## RubyRed (Sep 24, 2011)

texican said:


> True.
> 
> Teach a man how to fish, while the world's awash in fish, and he eats for a lifetime...
> 
> ...


I agree completely with your thoughts. Afterwards is a moot point.

However, with a CLOSE family member that did knock on my door in need of food, shelter etc, they WOULD be out hunting for food whether it be animal or plants. They would NOT get a "free ride". They WOULD be selling their valuables or bartering them for "our" survival. 

Many family members other than my children, do not know how to fend for themselves. I would, (given the circumstance) show them what I have learned, my skills to survive and starter resources. Maybe.


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## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

You will honestly feed more than just the ones who knock on your door. In a break down situation you and your family will be dead within days with your attitude. In a break down situation I will run off the UPS man - a great way to get you to open the door. Shoot the UPS guy, take his uniform and truck. Pull up to your house and get you to blindly open your door - it's just the normal UPS delivery - BOOM, you are dead. Sorry to be honest and graphic. If you aren't dead and they just take your food, meds, and fuel, money, etc, how are you going to explain to your kids that they have to go hungry because you gave their food away??? Not me.


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## TNHermit (Jul 14, 2005)

One easy way to find out if you would help people is to open up your garden. Tell a few people they can have everything they can pick or go halves. 
I've had the word out for ten years. Nobody has shown up. They will take all you pick and give them ready to eat.

The other problem I have with prepping and I do prep is that we all have this scenario that kinda floats around in our head on how its going to go down. It never happens like that. You can be prepped to the gills and lose it all in a flash. For me knowledge is the best prep there is and being able to do all kinds of things. SO there again invite some people in and offer to teach them how to prep and survive. See how many you get.


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## vicker (Jul 11, 2003)

I for one am excited That when TSHTF UPS will still be making deliveries  I'll just order one of them honey roasted hams.


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## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

Or your electric or water guy, or whatever is needed to get you to let your guard down and open the door. In a SHTF scenario we (me and neighbors) will close off all access to our small valley to all who don't live here. If we can figure out how and the SHTF is bad enough we will attempt to close off the road that even comes to our valley. A few do-gooders might object, but we will find a way to deal with that. I classify people these days as either a contributor or a hungry mouth to feed. Hopefully the hungry mouths to feed will evacuate very soon after the SHTF and I won't have to deal with them.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

In CE there is a thread about Spain and the empty urban apartments. Where did all the people go that lived in and rented those apartments?


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## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

YuccaFlatsRanch said:


> Or your electric or water guy, or whatever is needed to get you to let your guard down and open the door. In a SHTF scenario we (me and neighbors) will close off all access to our small valley to all who don't live here. If we can figure out how and the SHTF is bad enough we will attempt to close off the road that even comes to our valley. A few do-gooders might object, but we will find a way to deal with that. I classify people these days as either a contributor or a hungry mouth to feed. Hopefully the hungry mouths to feed will evacuate very soon after the SHTF and I won't have to deal with them.


That's my plan--to cut off the road from the main highway. I'm expecting/hoping a lot of folks to evacuate to areas with more people and assistance. That leaves the folks who are used to doing for themselves, about 6 families, most of which have livestock.


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## Old Vet (Oct 15, 2006)

Each situation is different and each one has their own set of rules that go with that situation. I for one will miss several meals to feed a kid. In a local emergency or in every day life I would feed anybody that was hungry. But in a global TSHTF I would not.


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## unregistered29228 (Jan 9, 2008)

Old Vet said:


> Each situation is different and each one has their own set of rules that go with that situation. I for one will miss several meals to feed a kid. In a local emergency or in every day life I would feed anybody that was hungry. But in a global TSHTF I would not.


That's how we feel too. I buy bags of groceries for homeless people we see on the street, and donate to food pantries in these "normal" times. But in a SHTF situation we'd be thinking more of our own survival.


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## YuccaFlatsRanch (May 3, 2004)

I am more than willing to help people Prep. In fact we take non-LDS members with us to the LDS cannery all the time. HOWEVER, in a SHTF scenario where either my family, friends or myself may be injured/killed - not going to be so accomodating.


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## Kevingr (Mar 10, 2006)

In my world I could never turn family away, we're to close for that. Yes, in a long term SHTF scenario that's going to be a problem, but there's no way I could turn them away. Any others would be met by Smith, Wesson and me.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

I feel the same way as the OP. I just could never turn down a starving child. We have purposely stocked a LOT of powdered broth, dehydrated veggies, and unflavored protein powder just for the purpose of those passing by and ask for a meal. 

We figure we can make buckets of nutritious soup for practically nothing, if we had to to feed others that pass by and are in desperate need of a meal. I think we've invested something like $150 for the 'needy soup' only and calculate we could make a huge pot of soup everyday for a year if we had to. Our family will stick to our other preps.

For me and my family, there are worst things than death. For one, allowing a child to die because we refused to help, instead horded it all for ourselves. It's not the children's' fault their parents were ignorant. We've discussed this as a family and all agreed that we could never live with ourselves if we didn't prepare for those who just didn't get that they need to stock up. 

The problem is that it's not the people's fault they didn't understand. Preppers have forever appeared to be gloom and doomers and just plain weird. It's why no one else will listen to us. Plus you have the government and emergency oganizations telling everyone nothing bad will happen to them that the government won't fix; there's all kind of government programs for those who need it; and the only reason to stock up is for weather/natural emergencies -- and then only 3 days is sufficient. So why would someone do otherwise that has never known SHTF in their entire life? It isn't that they are stupid, lazy or have their head in the sand - rather they are just plain ignorant of 'real life' because we all had it so good in this country for so long and the government always has bailed us out. They can't fathom it any other way.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Karen if it works for you great i can see a big camp forming in your front yard .With free food why would anyone move on .I;m talking a SHTF not just a few day thing .

Even now we got so many thieves on the loose i got a gate and cameras up and on .:fussin:

While back a guy ,wife and baby were going around begging money for this and that ,job wasn't on his list . 

I feel for those not prepared but when i know that the SHTF the razor wire will go up .Sorry not taking chances with my family on strangers .

I knew a great guy little while while back was robed and killed for $35.00 what would someone do for your stash .Send a crying child to your door and pick you off at 200 yards


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Not really, you take your cup of soup and move on and I am also thinking long term SHTF; that's why we planned on the soup. And I'm not saying I wouldn't take my gun with me to the yard to give them their soup to be sure they understand what 'move on' means. But to refuse someone when we do have it? Doesn't make sense to me.

I guess maybe it's that if things are so bad that we have to live behind razor wire, board up the house, shoot anyone who steps on the property, let people die because our family is more important than theirs -- then that's not life. We resort to being no less than barbarians where it's everyone for them selves, the other guy has no value in this world, and doing the right thing becomes a sin. 

I have a difficult time wrapping my mind about why people would choose to want to kill little children in order to live under those conditions. It's not like we're going to live forever under the best of circumstances. Morals mean nothing until put to the test. If we believe we're more important than anyone else, we're no better the worst of the worst (Hitler, Manson, etc.); we're all in the same boat.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

It's funny you mentioned a boat at the end of your post. I was thinking the whole thread was just an example of the lifeboat problem from philosophy. It's based on the old discussion of a ship sinking. If the lifeboats are full, trying to take aboard more people could cause the lifeboat to capsize or sink, dooming everybody. It's a tough choice, which is one of the reasons no good solution has ever come up for the problem. Sometimes life presents a situation where none of the choices are good ones. 
There are also some other "twists" on the original scenario. For example, if the people in the lifeboat are stuck there for a long time, how are the resources divided? Dividing any food and water among all the people equally seems fair, until you realize that if there are children or smaller adults among the survivors, they don't need as much water as larger people do.
That's why philosophy is often described as "questions that are never answered".

"I just could never turn down a starving child."

To some people that would be considered a weakness, and they will have no problem using it against you if they can.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Karen said:


> Not really, you take your cup of soup and move on and I am also thinking long term SHTF; that's why we planned on the soup. And I'm not saying I wouldn't take my gun with me to the yard to give them their soup to be sure they understand what 'move on' means. But to refuse someone when we do have it? Doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> I guess maybe it's that if things are so bad that we have to live behind razor wire, board up the house, shoot anyone who steps on the property, let people die because our family is more important than theirs -- then that's not life. We resort to being no less than barbarians where it's everyone for them selves, the other guy has no value in this world, and doing the right thing becomes a sin.
> 
> I have a difficult time wrapping my mind about why people would choose to want to kill little children in order to live under those conditions. It's not like we're going to live forever under the best of circumstances. Morals mean nothing until put to the test. If we believe we're more important than anyone else, we're no better the worst of the worst (Hitler, Manson, etc.); we're all in the same boat.


I felt the same way as you till i started really listening to people and understanding that they don't feel the same way as i did. They are not going to share. Not even your stuff with you. They will take it all. if you bring a gun to the yard with the soup, they will have a bigger gun.
it was greed that got us into this mess, and the economic crash did not teach people that greed was wrong, it just made them greedier. 
If some one hurt my family because i felt I had to feed a stranger, I am not sure i could live with myself. Or if i wasn't there to help protect my family then where would they be?


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## bourbonred (Feb 27, 2008)

Okay, so, You'll take your gun and the soup, Let them eat, then point the gun at them and threaten to shoot them if they don't want to "move on"? Shooting someone point blank is harder than not feeding someone. If your gun is just for show and you're not willing to shoot, then you shouldn't be pointing it in the first place. I don't see the logic. BTW, FD, the lifeboat example is a perfect illustration of what we're all struggling with here. There is no good answer to what we are discussing. Right now groups of people all over the globe are hungry/starving and our pantrys are full. How is that any different? If you are not actively feeding people now, you think you will when there is less food to be had? I don't like any of the answers. I don't want to deal with the situation. But our country is on a crash-course and I would rather think through problems ahead of time. I will feed my kids before strangers. What I do with my own portion of food--I don't know...


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

bourbonred said:


> Okay, so, You'll take your gun and the soup, Let them eat, then point the gun at them and threaten to shoot them if they don't want to "move on"? Shooting someone point blank is harder than not feeding someone. If your gun is just for show and you're not willing to shoot, then you shouldn't be pointing it in the first place. I don't see the logic. BTW, FD, the lifeboat example is a perfect illustration of what we're all struggling with here. There is no good answer to what we are discussing. Right now groups of people all over the globe are hungry/starving and our pantrys are full. How is that any different? If you are not actively feeding people now, you think you will when there is less food to be had? I don't like any of the answers. I don't want to deal with the situation. But our country is on a crash-course and I would rather think through problems ahead of time. I will feed my kids before strangers. What I do with my own portion of food--I don't know...


You'll eat it and stay strong, so you can care for your family.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

He who eats must work.

As long as there's work to do, go ahead and hand out food as payment for labor. If you have regular good laborers, hire some folks to work on shelter and clothing for your other laborers. Let it be known that you'll trade food for cultural items (books, musical instruments, etc) so people have some collecting work they can do off of your homestead. Hire people to read books on foraging, and identify plants others collect. 

Even kids can work, and they eat less than adults, there is charity in picking age-appropriate work and feeding full portions for it, and if you're trying to build a long term society, you can feed two kids for the price of one adult, which will be more valuable to you in 20 years. In a SHTF situation kids will have to grow up faster than they do today. 

You have to be willing to fire the lazy worker and send them on, or else you can't save the next guy that comes down the road and can actually contribute to your own long term survival. 

Don't have more work? Ask your workers if any of them wants to give up their place and move on to make room for another child or two. 

If you manage your workers right, you'll have fewer problems with outsiders, as they will want to protect their positions.

But always keep in mind your resources, and how renewable they are. You serve no-one if you set yourself up as lord of a small kingdom of workers and they all starve because you ran out or the first harvest is not enough to replenish your stores. There may be another person just down the road that had less generous terms but is better situated to last a long time and could have saved more lives.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

I think it is the Normalcy Bliss or the ostrich syndrome :fussin: Many don't think anything this large could happen in the US 

Lots of good reading from this guy he saw it first hand and says lot of the same is happening here Fernando âFerfalâ Aguirre.

How many has ever saw a mob of even twenty mad people or of five or ones on drugs their fear factor is near O .Back in my younger days i did lot of stupid things one night me and another guy was scouting hot spots for the local cop shop i made one bad turn and was near surrounded .Yes you can turn around in the middle of a street, you just can't be picky how you do it .They were looking for some trouble makers with shotguns .

Also in a SHTF one big worry is cops they will be the best and biggest armed gang .There is some now that should never been in such a job now much less if things get tough . Like in Mexico now .

Time is coming you won't drive far without being stopped for some stupid reason or the other these small towns need money bad .They take money from the Feds to hire more cops that they other wise can't afford and then want to expand even more .

Some have never saw the bad side of society they just worked a 9 to 5 and went home never dealt each day with all types of people .

Maybe TPTB can kick the can further down the road but QE 3 may bring it closer .


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

dlskidmore Or your workers could get high and slit you throat :thumb: Some folks just going to eat their seed corn no matter what .ound:

Fellow i know was expanding his business and told his older employees that they going to do drug testing and if anyone knew they couldn't pass it to go home 10 out of 13 left .This is why in the oil patch if you can pass the drug test and are breathing you most likely got a job .I did anyway eep:


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Sawmill Jim said:


> dlskidmore Or your workers could get high and slit you throat :thumb: Some folks just going to eat their seed corn no matter what .ound:


Yeah, it's a careful balancing act, takes strong leadership, the average person would eventually fall off the top of this pyramid, but if the new warlord knows what is good for him he'll keep the real preppers as advisers who have a clue how to keep their kingdom going. Best to have friends of a martial leaning to help maintain the pyramid.

Even if you stand and shoot everyone that comes to your property, eventually the local warlord will rise and come to take whatever it is you're defending so well. May as well bring up the local warlord yourself and position yourself as a right hand man/woman.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

dlskidmore Think i'll gather family look like i do now poor which i am and make the area hard to access . Think folks may think i done been robed and move on :thumb: In the next few months i'll be adding more devices like intercom at gate and more cameras for the good times . Not many house out this way i think that helps trim the numbers some . eep:


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

I applaud your spirit, IllinoisGuy, and I share your intent.

I'm divorced now, and live mostly alone. I keep my freezer full and have an always expanding garden from which I can the excess. My pantry stays full to overflowing. Additonally, I have stores of most other necessities. In the event of a major emergency or catastrophe, my brother and sister have orders to come here with their families, no questions asked, no notice needed. I keep enough on hand to feed them plus my own kids and my ex (her arrival would be the only sign I would need that the apocalypse was at hand). My neighbors and friends also know that I'm always good for a meal.

Besides that, I help anyone and everyone with even the slightest interest in gardening with seeds, compost, containers, advice, labor, books, or whatever it is they need. I've also found that the easiest way to get someone interested in gardening is bring them a basket of fresh from the garden produce, or to serve them a dish made exclusively of produce from my garden.


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## Becka03 (Mar 29, 2009)

I am a Christian conservative- and I am sorry- but My family comes first- along with a few others that know I expect work out of them- and others who are actually family who are total zombies who will not be allowed on the property-


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## illinoisguy (Sep 4, 2011)

I am required to first help my own family or I am nothing but an infidel. Also the mandates of christianity and Christ compel me to help others. Would I be careful who I help? You bet. I have said no to druggies when they asked for help. The help they needed I could not give them and food/money would just further their habit.

Bottom line, I will help anyone in need if its within my power. I have this sneaking suspicion that if I do, I won't run out.


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## GarlicGirl (Mar 12, 2010)

I've been following this thread with great interest. I'm wondering if one's viewpoint is based on individual circumstances and surroundings. My place is very rural and isolated from large populations. The nearest city of any size is 100 miles away with quite rugged terrain between those fleeing it and us. Our community consists of self sufficient people with many different skill sets who already barter for work and necessities. Nobody can do or has everything. We need and value each other. That said, any person who manages to find their way to this area could be a valuable addition. Persons fleeing big cities would include physicians, nurses, mechanics, etc. I don't propose feeding thugs and criminals, but families who find themselves in a difficult situation due to being unaware of our dangerous world. And to those who say they would never help these strangers, be aware that I would help your family if something happened to you. Misfortune can happen to any of us, regardless of extensive planning.


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## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

I've hesitated to post on this thread because I'm not real sure what I would do. I do believe that it's important to try to teach your neighbors and family members how to raise a garden and some livestock before things fall apart. I have several neighbors that are on board now, but it's taken me a few years to accomplish that. I don't know if I could turn away a hungry child, adults, maybe, but a child would be hard. I guess for me, I'll have to pray about this and leave it in God's hands. If I feel God has sent certain people my way, I would not turn them down, but except for that, I'm not sure I would give away what my family would need.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Through years of praying about this, it is our belief that God has answered us in the direction 'we' are to go (meaning our family; others He may direct differently). He has commanded us to feed the hungry. I don't believe God is going to put anyone here that doesn't need our help. I believe He will protect us from harm if we do as He's commanded us to do. I know if someone doesn't believe in God or in the power of God, it would be difficult and off the wall to understand; but if we are in error, we loose our life doing a good thing. I'd rather go out that way than allowing others to suffer because of our selfishness to live only a little longer. For our family, our lives are no more valuable than any other family's life.

BTW folks, I wouldn't use that gun when taking out the soup. :doh: It would only be as a deterrent for those who how didn't understand "now please move along". If they refused, they would have no reason to stay because nothing more would be given them. This is going to be 'aid'; not an all you can eat buffet! 

But being so rural as we are, I believe genuinely hungry families would be respectful and grateful for whatever we could do to help and would be only passing through anyway to get to safety in another location or get to family. Gangs would be deterred from around here because there's nothing to get around here and they know people here in the mountains are armed, have dogs, and will dig in deep. They simply wouldn't get much around here anyways because people don't have much and we're all so far and few between. Most of the roads aren't easy, off the beaten path, and there's no major cities within hours of a drive as it is. 

I guess it's just one of those things that I refuse to worry about. Whatever happens, happens. I just won't put ourselves higher than another when there is more than enough to share.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

Karen said:


> I guess it's just one of those things that I refuse to worry about. Whatever happens, happens.





> Matthew 6:34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.


I'm not a real prepper. I can imagine enough scenarios that I can't prepare for them all, especially the ones that are contradictory. I do participate in discussions as a thought experiment, but fretting about this stuff will just drive you crazy and keep you from fully living the today you were meant to live. God bless your generous heart, and I'm sure he'll guide you if it's appropriate to change your policy in the future.

My first post is based on:


> 2 Thessalonians 3:10
> New International Version (NIV)
> 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: âThe one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.â


Both stances are Christian, it takes judgement to decide which is appropriate for the current time.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

I think this is one of those fundamental divides among 'preppers'. The thing is, most people don't really know what side of the line they _really_ fall on until it actually happens - until they're actually looking a hungry person in the eyes.

The only possible exception would be people who have experienced true hunger for themselves. I've said it before but I'll say it again: Going five involuntary days without eating will change the way you look at the world - at least that's my experience.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

I can go five days without eating, easily. Going a single day without water, on the other hand.... 

My guess is that if the food is very cheap and simple, such as cooked wheat gruel or some such, people are not terribly likely to sit around mooching off of you day after day if they are the exploitative sort. Probably that type would go elsewhere to find meat, cigarettes, etc. Truly though...water. Water is not easy to come by in much of the country and clean water that will not give a city person the runs is probably even more scarce. You can only carry so much water on foot and what I see is that water, not food, would be a limiting factor in travel.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

chamoisee said:


> I can go five days without eating, easily. Going a single day without water, on the other hand....


you're a much stronger person than I am then. I've done it - not by choice - and can honestly say there was nothing easy about it for me.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

chamoisee said:


> I can go five days without eating, easily. Going a single day without water, on the other hand....
> 
> My guess is that if the food is very cheap and simple, such as cooked wheat gruel or some such, people are not terribly likely to sit around mooching off of you day after day if they are the exploitative sort. Probably that type would go elsewhere to find meat, cigarettes, etc. Truly though...water. Water is not easy to come by in much of the country and clean water that will not give a city person the runs is probably even more scarce. You can only carry so much water on foot and what I see is that water, not food, would be a limiting factor in travel.


I don't know. Some of the food they sell in the freezer section of the store is pretty bad and we have all kinds of people mooching that stuff.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

NoClue said:


> you're a much stronger person than I am then. I've done it - not by choice - and can honestly say there was nothing easy about it for me.


After the first day or so, I don't notice it anymore. I used to fast from time to time and it typically felt like work when I started to eat again.


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

chamoisee said:


> After the first day or so, I don't notice it anymore. I used to fast from time to time and it typically felt like work when I started to eat again.


Better to have some one who wants to eat, more motovation to figure out a way to find something to nurish yourself with.

You may not eat for a couple of days, but you would be unable to do much. So the water would be wasted on you.
I would be thinking of ways to keep up my strength, so I could help take care of others, and provide for them..


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

I was still bicycling actively, pulling a bike trailer with two toddlers in it. I probably had some reserves though, and was in good physical shape.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

FourDeuce said:


> It's funny you mentioned a boat at the end of your post. I was thinking the whole thread was just an example of the lifeboat problem from philosophy. It's based on the old discussion of a ship sinking. If the lifeboats are full, trying to take aboard more people could cause the lifeboat to capsize or sink, dooming everybody. It's a tough choice, which is one of the reasons no good solution has ever come up for the problem. Sometimes life presents a situation where none of the choices are good ones.
> There are also some other "twists" on the original scenario. For example, if the people in the lifeboat are stuck there for a long time, how are the resources divided? Dividing any food and water among all the people equally seems fair, until you realize that if there are children or smaller adults among the survivors, they don't need as much water as larger people do.
> That's why philosophy is often described as "questions that are never answered".
> 
> ...


Think of it this way.... will you throw your children out of the lifeboat, so that other children can come in? Children who's parents didn't care about them in the first place (like you do yours) or they'd've prepared for them.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

texican said:


> Children who's parents didn't care about them in the first place (like you do yours) or they'd've prepared for them.


That's a little harsh, their parents may have just been preparing for a different future than the one that came. I'm sure there are possible futures not covered by all your disaster plans.

Everything's a tradeoff. One person stockpiles and has a deep bunker, another has a homestead and all the basics to carry on off grid, another works on getting their kids through a mostly useless education so they can end up on top of the new world order. Who's right? :shrug: Only the future can tell us.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

dlskidmore said:


> That's a little harsh, their parents may have just been preparing for a different future than the one that came. I'm sure there are possible futures not covered by all your disaster plans.
> 
> Everything's a tradeoff. One person stockpiles and has a deep bunker, another has a homestead and all the basics to carry on off grid, another works on getting their kids through a mostly useless education so they can end up on top of the new world order. Who's right? :shrug: Only the future can tell us.


Yep ipods and sports events traded off for prepping .I don't know Texican but short of being invaded by UFO's i bet he is ready :icecream: And i wouldn't rule that out either :nono:


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

I may be the oddball, but if things get that bad as to where I could not feed a needy person, I would welcome death. I don't understand why people would want to be around if things get that bad. I trust God to take care of me & mine. I am prepared & have a lot of food on hand. I also remember Jesus telling us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisoners, care for the sick, bury the dead, etc. I try to live my life as Jesus did & I know he would not have turned anyone away from his door. If someone shoots me & takes my supplies, then I at least died doing what I feel God wants me to do.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Wendy said:


> I may be the oddball, but if things get that bad as to where I could not feed a needy person, I would welcome death. I don't understand why people would want to be around if things get that bad. I trust God to take care of me & mine. I am prepared & have a lot of food on hand. I also remember Jesus telling us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisoners, care for the sick, bury the dead, etc. I try to live my life as Jesus did & I know he would not have turned anyone away from his door. If someone shoots me & takes my supplies, then I at least died doing what I feel God wants me to do.


I want to be here to help my children and grandchildren this is my priority and responsibility .One who don't take care of their own is worse than a non believer .

Didn't old Joseph lie in a few years supply of wheat .:icecream:

Years back didn't some try to impress their christian ways on the Indians right here in this country how did that work for them :croc:


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## lathermaker (May 7, 2010)

I'm really worried about the younger generation, the 20 somethings. They have grow up with all the gadgets, food, shelter and whatever they want. Their sense of entitlement really scares me. They don't believe that anything can happen, or if it did, the "Government" is going to take care of it pronto. I've read in numerous articles about how the most dangerous people to watch out for is the 20 something males. They won't work for food, they will just come in and take what they want.

I prep because I will take care of my family, (myself & my husband). We are both really good working with "stuff", basically anything a homesteading person would need. I have NO PATIENCE at all for those that would sit on their rear ends and expect someone to take care of them. I have a feeling "Will work for Food" is going to be the barter system of the day.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

I think it's a bit presumptuous to say that a college education is "mostly worthless". It is becoming increasingly difficult to get anything other than an entry level job without some kind of a degree, whether or not it even relates to the job. Besides which, do you really want to live in a world in which there are no nurses or doctors? Wait. Never mind. I don't need to know the answer to that. :-/ I for one, want my medical professionals to have some idea of what they are doing. For that, they need an education. 

And speaking of medical care, most entry level jobs don't seem to offer medical benefits. To get those jobs, it behooves one to have an education. So no, it isn't worthless.


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Sawmill Jim said:


> Years back didn't some try to impress their christian ways on the Indians right here in this country how did that work for them :croc:


I think you have it backwards; the Indians tried showing the Christians about corn and how to survive here and look how that worked for _them._


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

pamda said:


> The more people who show up, the more work will get done. There is always something needing done. If the worst happens, there will be much work to be done. I will not support anyone able bodied who won't carry their weight, but if you can and you do , you eat and have a warm spot. And any child who needs it gets it, also anyone old and infirm. I do not believe that turning away the few will help me in anyway.


this is my view as well. 

My great grandparents lived next to some railroad tracks in the 30s during the depression. As Im sure everyone knows many traveled such track at the time. They fed ANYONE for an honest days work. Expand the garden, mend a fence, harvest some wild food or another. some stayed years, many stayed hours. Everyone who got a meal worked for it. Luckily for them (or those they helped rather) they had land, and could expand, lots of wild foods etc. Wouldnt work for everyone of course. 

in my case, there are about 24 families in a secluded canyon. gardening isnt common here due to the high elevation, poor soil, and lack of water. I happen to have the varieties and skills needed, along with knowing all the wild plants pretty well. I could easily keep my extended family and all these families fed should they listen to me, and work for it. 

Further, the city Im close to is 12k people, again LOTS of animals around, but little other food, that said I DO have plans that could be followed to keep those 12k bellies full. Would people at either of those levels listen to me? I dunno. Its not m problem. I have thought it out though, extensively, and it could be done. Depending on how things play out Id do my best to share what I know. 

If conditions dont allow it, then I will do everything in my power to take care of my family atleast... To many variables for me to have a stagnant view. But I will cast a wide net if conditions allow it. 

Dont get in my way though if it comes to that...


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

> Quote:
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by Sawmill Jim
> ...


I sincerely hope the snippy comments about Christians and non-Christians do NOT invade this thread. There are enough of those topics elsewhere on the site.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

chamoisee said:


> I think it's a bit presumptuous to say that a college education is "mostly worthless".


I didn't mean to say all degrees are worthless, but the kind that gets you on top of politics or bureaucracies is pretty worthless unless you're on the right side of the right power centers, which is pretty unpredictable.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

AngieM2 said:


> I sincerely hope the snippy comments about Christians and non-Christians do NOT invade this thread. There are enough of those topics elsewhere on the site.


I guess i took it different we now are trying to teach others how to prepare and survive and it don't seem to be working for us either . It apeares to be two different worlds or peoples living side by side one that consume,spend and go in debt bunch ,then the savers . Thing is when TSHTF the ones we were trying to teach may very well attack us and our way of life . Not realizing they are eating their seed potatoes today leaving non for tomorrow .eep:

PC was one of our leading down falls that and seeing the neighbor with a big house he worked years for. Then this person goes out buying one on credit thus spending 30 years of future earnings one may never have . Seems everyone is trying to get on the :bandwagon: to instant ,credit based prosperity eep:


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

"That's a little harsh,"

Life is a little harsh sometimes, too. If people make bad choices, life often has a way of making them pay for their choices. Nobody will be able to save everybody. Trying could cost you and your family your lives.
If you haven't read Day of the Triffids yet, you might find it interesting. In that book, the world ends because a comet passes by and blinds almost everybody, then the triffids come along and make things worse by killing a bunch of the blind people. Some of the few survivors who can still see try to organize and save as many of the blind survivors as possible, but their efforts fail and also causes some of the survivors who can see to die.


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## tkrabec (Mar 12, 2003)

Wendy said:


> I may be the oddball, but if things get that bad as to where I could not feed a needy person, I would welcome death. I don't understand why people would want to be around if things get that bad. I trust God to take care of me & mine. I am prepared & have a lot of food on hand. I also remember Jesus telling us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisoners, care for the sick, bury the dead, etc. I try to live my life as Jesus did & I know he would not have turned anyone away from his door. If someone shoots me & takes my supplies, then I at least died doing what I feel God wants me to do.


We are also told to be stewards of the planet. Unless we're told or called to do something, we don't know his will. What if TEOTWAWKI is the cleansing that the world needs? and our preps for our families is to keep us and ours safe, while not providing for the locusts. What if the locusts are to be culled thru starvation & death (depending on where in the bible you read its thou shalt not commit murder, not thou shall not kill). 

I will gladly share knowledge with others, and food & other preps with those who can help me survive, as well as anyone I'm called to help. But I will not endanger my family & tribe just helping anyone who comes along.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

FourDeuce said:


> If people make bad choices, life often has a way of making them pay for their choices.


If the world doesn't go to hell in a handbasket in the way you prepped for, prepping might look like the bad choice, robbing you of money and time, and opportunities because it's hard to move your acquired supplies. None of us know the future...

Yes, we will all pay for our choices, but just because someone makes a different choice doesn't mean it didn't make a lot of sense from their point of view at the time, and they could turn out to be the ones that are right.

The comment I responded to assumed parents didn't love their kids if they didn't prep for the particular future that happens to come to pass. That's too harsh. the world is harsh enough without all the pointing fingers.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Well this is a harsh world i learned that long ago . As i was posting on another thread got to going back in time .I was raised by grandparents it was four miles or more to any store this was done by walking. So being prepared was and is just a way of life .You ever walk that many miles in the winter for a loaf of bread :hysterical: Me either .But buddy watching that garden grow in the summer had your mouth watering .

Spend your money on junk don't cry to me if your job goes south .Only two things are certain death and taxes and you can be certain they will tax your funereal too


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

Most people were different during the last Great Depression. They wouldn't have questioned their obligation to work for a hot meal and a place to sleep.
Now I don't know. people think they are owed it. Work or not.

people are coming out of college now and still not getting a job. So that can go either way. Dh and i have always worked for our selves and as such have never been out of work. If one job ended we made ourselves a new one.
Like right now there is only enough work for DH, so i stay home and raise our food. Many on unemployment and welfare think it is below them or it is too hard to grow a garden. if they think that now, what makes you think they would help grow a garden when the welfare stops coming, especially when they don't get the privilege of being head gardener.
My greatest fear would be that I would give food to one family and they would tell some one and every one would show up. Food only goes so far and it takes a while to produce it. here we have to have the right season to grow it too, so it's hard to come by with out a trip to the store. All you have to do is look at the food bank shelves to know that.


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

Well the entitlement minded will find no sanctuary with me either. Like I said above though, I will do my best to help all those who are willing to help themselves. Seeds, knowledge, hopefully a few newly hatched chickens or meat rabbits if I can spare them etc. (babies meant for breeding not eating) 

I agree those expecting handouts will be in for a world of hurt, in general. There arent enough of us capable of providing to fill all those hands even if we all fully intended to. 

Lots of other issues such folks could cause as well. To many to list. whatever we face, I think its a given things will get tougher for a period. with much worse issues possible. I actually think in many scenarios the entitlement minded could potentially be what throw us over the edge into deeper issues. 

It is what it is. The cycle of civilizations that us great apes havent yet figured out to break.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> I want to be here to help my children and grandchildren this is my priority and responsibility .One who don't take care of their own is worse than a non believer .
> 
> Didn't old Joseph lie in a few years supply of wheat .
> 
> Years back didn't some try to impress their christian ways on the Indians right here in this country how did that work for them


I will take care of my own. I would also expect people to pitch in & help out for their meal. I can't say I would want my kids to even survive if it means a world of people treating each other this way. They would be better off dead than living in a world where they have to kill others to survive even the harshest of conditions. Not worth it in my opinion. I am teaching them that death is sometimes a better alternative to life.


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## dlskidmore (Apr 18, 2012)

SquashNut said:


> Many on unemployment and welfare think it is below them or it is too hard to grow a garden.


You'd be surprised. I taught three teenage boys from the hood to make Jam from wild grapes we found growing on the edge of a city park (The city has of course since "exterminated" the rouge vine.) They think social security is "free money from the government" (I straightened them out) but they were absolutely fascinated by the idea of making their own food. No-one ever taught them better.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Wendy said:


> I will take care of my own. I would also expect people to pitch in & help out for their meal. I can't say I would want my kids to even survive if it means a world of people treating each other this way. They would be better off dead than living in a world where they have to kill others to survive even the harshest of conditions. Not worth it in my opinion. I am teaching them that death is sometimes a better alternative to life.


That goes against what the bible teaches. Many faiths believe suicide will earn you a place "below".


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## demeter (Jul 15, 2010)

I like to think I'd be gracious and generous. But honestly, if it came down, I mean really came down to the wire of me and mine vs. you and yours--well yours will be out to the best of my ability. Sucks, I hate even thinking about it.

Demeter


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

demeter said:


> I like to think I'd be gracious and generous. But honestly, if it came down, I mean really came down to the wire of me and mine vs. you and yours--well yours will be out to the best of my ability. Sucks, I hate even thinking about it.
> 
> Demeter


You know if you really are honest with yourself (talking to me too) it is already this way now :cowboy:

Few years back fellow traveled a ways from home and found his self broke .So this was the days when phone Co's had operators and he calls his buddy and ask him to wire him some cash his buddy says sorry i can;t here you so the guy repeats it same response . The operator is listening in and says he is down south needing cash and the buddy says i still can't here him but if you can here him you send him the cash . And this in good times :angel:


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> That goes against what the bible teaches. Many faiths believe suicide will earn you a place "below".


I did not say suicide. If someone were to kill me for my supplies though, it might not be such a bad thing. I would never take my own life or tell my kids to do that. They know suicide is a very big sin. I just can't imagine killing someone. I guess I will not know unless it actually happens which I hope it never does.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

dlskidmore said:


> That's a little harsh, their parents may have just been preparing for a different future than the one that came. I'm sure there are possible futures not covered by all your disaster plans.
> 
> Everything's a tradeoff. One person stockpiles and has a deep bunker, another has a homestead and all the basics to carry on off grid, another works on getting their kids through a mostly useless education so they can end up on top of the new world order. Who's right? :shrug: Only the future can tell us.


Any reason they can't do both? Too many parents are engaged in keeping up with the Jones, getting their children every ephemeral indulgence imaginable. 


Wendy said:


> I may be the oddball, but if things get that bad as to where I could not feed a needy person, I would welcome death. I don't understand why people would want to be around if things get that bad. I trust God to take care of me & mine. I am prepared & have a lot of food on hand. I also remember Jesus telling us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisoners, care for the sick, bury the dead, etc. I try to live my life as Jesus did & I know he would not have turned anyone away from his door. If someone shoots me & takes my supplies, then I at least died doing what I feel God wants me to do.


 But, what if God told you to prepare for hard times, to take care of you, yours, and your community? Reminded of the NOLA Katrina story, of the God fearing woman telling the first rescuers, while the water was rising, it's OK, God will provide. Once on top of her house, a boat came by..... God will provide. Then a helicopter landed a basket for her..... no, God will provide. At the Pearly Gates, the lady asked God why he didn't 'provide'... God said, I sent three parties to rescue you. 

Personally, I feel it is my duty to provide for me and mine... I've been told to provide now for the coming dark days. Hard as it may be to believe, I'm not living in a bunker, scared of shadows... I enjoy frivolity and the ephemeral pleasures... just because I put aside an extra case of hard to find hot sauce when I run across it doesn't mean I'm totally crazy....



Sawmill Jim said:


> I want to be here to help my children and grandchildren this is my priority and responsibility .One who don't take care of their own is worse than a non believer .
> 
> Didn't old Joseph lie in a few years supply of wheat .:icecream:
> 
> Years back didn't some try to impress their christian ways on the Indians right here in this country how did that work for them :croc:


A lot of religious folks pay heed only to the New Testament, but the Old Testament, imho, has some 'hard hitting' life lessons!



silverseeds said:


> this is my view as well.
> 
> My great grandparents lived next to some railroad tracks in the 30s during the depression. As Im sure everyone knows many traveled such track at the time. They fed ANYONE for an honest days work. Expand the garden, mend a fence, harvest some wild food or another. some stayed years, many stayed hours. Everyone who got a meal worked for it. Luckily for them (or those they helped rather) they had land, and could expand, lots of wild foods etc. Wouldnt work for everyone of course.
> 
> ...


I lived a year in NM, out in the high desert areas in the Gila National Forest... if you don't mind me asking, how are you going to feed 12k people? What animals? Cattle, possibly, I do know there are some huge ranches out there. But cattle won't last long, and I imagine the owners would not agree to just give them away, gratis. Hopefully the plan doesn't include wild game. A few people, imho, could take down the elk herds in short order, sans game wardens.



dlskidmore said:


> If the world doesn't go to hell in a handbasket in the way you prepped for, prepping might look like the bad choice, robbing you of money and time, and opportunities because it's hard to move your acquired supplies. None of us know the future...
> 
> Yes, we will all pay for our choices, but just because someone makes a different choice doesn't mean it didn't make a lot of sense from their point of view at the time, and they could turn out to be the ones that are right.
> 
> The comment I responded to assumed parents didn't love their kids if they didn't prep for the particular future that happens to come to pass. That's too harsh. the world is harsh enough without all the pointing fingers.


 The way I see it, to anyone that sees this post, the future could be a brutally harsh place to be... prep now, you've been enlightened, and there's now (once again, if you're reading this) no excuse.

I have relatives that go on cruises several times a year, go to the casinos once a month, and blow money carelessly. When they visit relatives hereabouts, they expect deluxe accommodations... They're overweight, out of shape, have zero skills, and nothing but bad attitudes. One of them actually moved up here... and within a month, had alienated every family member and neighbor around... why they moved here, expecting everyone else to change, is beyond me. I give them a survival time of maybe a week... they ended up building a home, right next to a highway.

Parent's are supposed to love their kids. Most just don't want to buy into the crazy notion that something might happen that negates their entire worldview. Know lots of friends and relatives who 'say' they'd rather die, than 'camp out'. Trouble is, once they're starving, they'll realize death is not swift, and very painful... then they'll decide they do want to live, and will do whatever it takes to survive, if even for an extra day. Suicide is against most religions, afaik...

I'd not turn away anyone today or tomorrow... a week after it's obvious to the unilluminati, by then, the road approaching my place will be ripped up and destroyed, the several culverts removed, deadfall trees scattered like a tornado'd moved through, and a burnt out vehicle or two would block the road, with buzzards roosting on top of the apparent carcasses inside. If your not there before, you'll not make it there thereafter.

Six strong backs and weak minds would come in handy.... as long as it's in the spring or early summer, so they could break ground to raise a crop before winter. Dead of winter? I doubt if I could keep them alive till spring... if I did, they'd be so weak as to be like death camp survivors... If they show up with five to ten tons of supplies, all would be well. My family that might move in, have that kind of supplies, on hand.


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

texican said:


> I lived a year in NM, out in the high desert areas in the Gila National Forest... if you don't mind me asking, how are you going to feed 12k people? What animals? Cattle, possibly, I do know there are some huge ranches out there. But cattle won't last long, and I imagine the owners would not agree to just give them away, gratis. Hopefully the plan doesn't include wild game. A few people, imho, could take down the elk herds in short order, sans game wardens.


Actually the cattle would indeed be part of the only workable plans I can come up with. As well as many wild plants, and a nearby lake. No doubt 12k isnt easy to feed here at the drop of a hat, and it would be tight at first. I ran the math on it conservatively and I honestly think it can be done. Especially considering at best only 6-9k of those would even be down for such plans. the first 2-3 years assuming the rough patch wed have to get through lasts that long, (could be a generation or more) would be tough. No doubt about it. 

I should add, Id be no where near this 12k people as it played out. Ive got a few versions of plans written up and if it seems needed Id drop off the plans and seeds and a few other starting supplies to several churches and the VFW and places like that. Lists and examples of the wild plants needed etc. They can act on it or try to if they want. For me Id be either at my homestead here, (in a canyon 15 miles out of town) or my much more remote 5 acres farther out of town. 

I happen to know how to dryland farm in places very few if anyone in the area can do so. In an area known to not have water, and less game and cattle for that matter then other remote spots that might actually draw some people. Took me intense study over a decade to acquire such knowledge. Only recently am I at a level its reliable.

Dont feel like going more in depth, but based on the other parts of your post we seem to have similar viewpoints on aspects of this. You be hard press o travel to where I will be with selected folks. I will keep it there. And little reason to go there when "known" "better" areas are a shorter distance..


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## radiofish (Mar 30, 2007)

Texican wrote: Suicide is against most religions, afaik...

Well if we remember our history, for those of us that were around at the time. 
During the Vietnam war - the Buddhist Monks in Saigon that took a bath in 87 octane, then lit themselves on fire in public, as a means of protesting.

The Vietnam War

*Passers-by stop to watch as flames envelope a young Buddhist monk, Saigon, ... market square, he has set himself on fire performing a ritual suicide in protest ...*

Then there were the Japanese (civilians and military) in WWII, that would commit Hara-Kari in the face of being defeated instead of surrendering to the Allied Forces. 
The practice of self-immolation still happens in rare cases currently with Japanese society.

[ame=http://www.google.com/search?q=hara+kari+japanese+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=ZH2&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&sa=X&ei=UGfIT-utOKqhiAfXoPgQ&ved=0CAcQvwUoAQ&q=hara+kiri+japanese&spell=1&fp=1&biw=800&bih=404&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&cad=b]hara kari japanese - Google Search[/ame]


edited to add: I almost forgot the current crop of religious persons looking to find their just rewards, by becoming a martyr. Look to the Middle East, and those lured by the promises of their religious leaders in exchange for wearing garments in public places that are made of high explosives.


The persons doing this, fully expect to see "The Promised Land" according to their own religious beliefs.

As far as taking in others..

Sorry but I'll have to say no. It is not that I don't care about others. I do many volunteer activies in my own community including training and preparing for natural disaters, with the local, county, and state agencies. This is for the benifit of the community at large, not for someone that can't do for themselves.

In fact it is an issue here locally with all of the panhandlers/ folks looking for a handout. This was in our local newspaper this week, as far as the university town at the bottom of the hill here and them passing laws against aggressive panhandling. 

The local panhandlers are sort of like the feeding wild animals. Once you start helping them, you had better not stop. Or else they won't know how to fend for themselves, once the "manna from heaven" dries up. This is when times are not at their very worse, as implied in others posts.

Yes I have been accosted by the hordes of panhandlers while shopping, and my favorite incident is: while I was getting cash from the ATM - that person must have had a death wish coming up behind me and then asking for "spare change" as I am getting several twenty dollar bills after 9pm on a week night/ and no I did not pull my concealed weapon on him at the time. But I called the police department and had an officer come and take the poor confused misguided soul away before he became injured. If a violent response would have been needed - I would have 1st beaten him senseless with my cane, before resorting to the use of a firearm/ deadly force.

Yeah in the linked article below - that guys 'cute sign' sure makes me wanna buy him a pizza. That photo in the article was taken in front of a bank/ next to the front door - across the street from the city police department. 

Judge to make decision on Arcata panhandling law; ordinance remains a rift in city politics - Times-Standard Online

*Judge to make decision on Arcata panhandling law; ordinance remains a rift in city politics*

Grant Scott-Goforth/The Times-Standardtimes-standard.com/
Posted: 05/28/2012 02:29:49 AM PDT

_A Humboldt County Superior Court judge will rule on the constitutionality of Arcata's panhandling ordinance, which limits the locations where people are allowed to panhandle and carries penalties for aggressive panhandling.

The ordinance was the subject of a lawsuit by Richard Salzman that went to trial last week. _


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## chamoisee (May 15, 2005)

Panhandlers are not in need of anything but a higher concentration of blood alcohol. That is why they don't work (alcoholics tend not to be reliable workers). This is different from people who have a different skill set and a learning curve to go through in order to survive in the country.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

.


radiofish said:


> Texican wrote: Suicide is against most religions, afaik...
> 
> Well if we remember our history, for those of us that were around at the time.
> During the Vietnam war - the Buddhist Monks in Saigon that took a bath in 87 octane, then lit themselves on fire in public, as a means of protesting.
> ...


Well, it looks like we're covered, if the Buddhists, Shinto, Zen masters, and Hindu's want to go peaceably.

Even in lush areas of the countries, to maintain cattle herds, winter feeding (hay) is in order. One bad winter (blizzard) in NM or anywhere really (even here in E Tx, we have cold spells) and cattle starve without hay and supplemental feeding. One could keep a low stocking on range, if it hadn't been overgrazed previously. Even here, a few starving cattle would make it through the winter. Of course, if the end occurred in the fall, the ranchers should have had enough hay to make it through the first winter. I know a few around here that keep two years of hay on hand, as insurance against a drought year (last year here!, the extra hay saved a lot of ranchers behinds).

I'd like to think the 200 head of cattle that run on my uncles land, and mine, in a shtf scenario, could be protected and preserved. (also the 300+ head of goats) Realistically, they could disappear overnight, so I don't plan on them... hope they'd be available, but unless it's canned, jerked, or smoked, not dependable.

Panhandlers, bums, drug addicts.... you enable them now, they're glommed on and won't let go. Pretty much everyone, unprepared, would do the same, in the face of charity, imho.


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

The ranches here buy no additional hay for their cattle at all. They make it through winter just fine. It has always been done this way here. I doubt there would even be large cattle herds here is people had to buy hay. Prices are crazy for it. It gets real cold here, most of the ranching is over 7k feet. 

Doesnt entirely matter to me, none of my plans depend on it. But I have thought out ways the unprepared community at large could squeeze by until other production kicks in.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

I don't know know where in Nm you are but down here at the bottom of the state the ranchers I know have quite a bit of hay on hand. They grow their own.

I see no way the towns people could live off the desert. Even if they had the supplies to catch, kill and butcher stolen cattle. They don't have the knowledge to track, stalk or move the cattle that for the most part are wild since they free range and aren't around people on a daily basis. I guess they could survive for a bit on misquite and tumbleweeds. Only one natural source of ground water which is near a popular hiking trail so if people can get to it they would have lots of company.


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

Ive known more then a few ranchers personally. They definitely do not use hay here. They dont grow it either, youd need irrigation for that. These cattle are dang near as wild as the deer and elk we have an abundance of. I dont have a way to prove it to any of you, but its definitely true. cattle out number people here, although this spread over a massive area of course. 

For the record there is no mesquite here either. Its a plant of the low desert. There are however several other survival level foods and ways to keep the needed nutrition in a body. certainly wouldnt be a good life until you had other crops going... Something only possible at that scale (without first having prepped large amounts of soil which is impossible at the drop of a hat) at one spot locally by a lake. It actually used to be the carrot capitol of the country, but they couldnt compete in the market. Its good enough with the right methods they could turn it back to production though. Ive scouted the area. Again wouldnt be easy AT ALL. 

If it happened to happen during a year of a good pinon harvest, those nuts alone could be most of a diet. Many millions of pounds of them, you will find some in poor years but some years there are way more then could be eaten by 12k in a year. Presuming the people go collect them all of course. I do not have enough seed to share they could all rely on regular crops the first year. they could the second though, and have survival level diets until then. 

honestly its all a moot point anyway. I highly doubt the cohesion to enact such a plan would ever happen. which is why Id be nowhere near them. But I do want to try to offer such folks a plan.


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

Thats the difference. We are lower in elevation. Lots of misquite here. Lots of farms as well. I guess people could live on grapes, chilis, alfalfa and cotton.


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

I have some second cousin relatives, that raise cattle in NM (Raton Pass high mesa)... but they don't overwinter any... buy in the spring, sell in the fall... they get away with a small alfalfa meadow, to get enough hay for their horses.


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## Wendy (May 10, 2002)

> But, what if God told you to prepare for hard times, to take care of you, yours, and your community? Reminded of the NOLA Katrina story, of the God fearing woman telling the first rescuers, while the water was rising, it's OK, God will provide. Once on top of her house, a boat came by..... God will provide. Then a helicopter landed a basket for her..... no, God will provide. At the Pearly Gates, the lady asked God why he didn't 'provide'... God said, I sent three parties to rescue you.


I am preparing for hard times to take care of me & mine & the community. I think most people are saying they wouldn't take care of the community. I would help others as much as I could.


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

texican said:


> I have some second cousin relatives, that raise cattle in NM (Raton Pass high mesa)... but they don't overwinter any... buy in the spring, sell in the fall... they get away with a small alfalfa meadow, to get enough hay for their horses.


Im not sure where raton is, but its in the northern part of the state, and they arent irrigating this alfalfa, Id pay well for some seed. 

I certainly never met anyone with horses who didnt use hay. These cattle are another matter though. They do overwinter them. I never asked enough to know their full set up but I always see some in winter and lots more in fall, I assume they thin the herds in fall. Couldnt say for sure. I do see a good amount any winter though. Im south of grants new mexico which is about an hour east of Albuquerque. 

For the record even texas has had totally freerange cattle. Feral actually. They are the breed the long horns came from. Although much less desirable then what is used today, and probably needed more space. As the SW was settled a bunch of them became feral. They were pretty large herds actually. Later as it became more populated across texas there was a frenzy to claim them. i doubt any direct descendants of those exist, but that is where the long horns came from. They were rather skinny by todays standards but had huge horns.


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## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Wendy said:


> I am preparing for hard times to take care of me & mine & the community. I think most people are saying they wouldn't take care of the community. I would help others as much as I could.


That was my point as well. We have and are prepared for our family, but we also prepared for others _*also*_ - if need be. It's not an either/or. 

I just can't understand all this stuff about others being too lazy or greedy to prep. I know for sure that most would. It isn't that they are unwilling to do so, they just haven't been able to catch the vision that we preppers have. It doesn't make them arrogant, bad parents, or stupid. 

Personally, I see preppers as having been given some special gift of insight that few others, for whatever reason, haven't been able to see or visualize what is on the horizon. 

In the OT Joseph was given that same sort of vision; thus his country was ready. However, it was only because the head of the country believed him and put the order out to prepare for it. The rest of the people didn't have clue and had no inclination of anything that bad coming along. Joseph and the king single handedly save their country -- _*by preparing for others*_! They didn't stock up for themselves; _they stocked up for all_.

In other words, some people get and some don't. It has nothing to do with Ipods, indulging our children, etc. It's plain and simple ignorance. It's clear as glass to us preppers, but that doesn't mean the others don't care. They're eyes are draped for whatever reason and they can't be held accountable - _by us _- for that happening. We have no business judging them. They aren't the bad guys, we the good guys. We're all in the same boat; some of us just happen to be fortunate to have a boat; and by working together, we certainly could build a bigger boat. We can't save all, but certainly could save some.


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

Karen 
I like the boat but has that already been done eep: Didn't some old man long ago build a large boat while telling every one to get ready .Now the way it understand this old fellow begged and pleaded for over a hundred years for folks to get ready . No one but his family worked on this boat , everyone laughed and watched even the local union hall wouldn't send any tradesmen .The neighbors were having a big time living it up ,party 24/7 . To some life is a big party and will tell you there ant't no rain coming and if it does the Gov. has lots of boats already built .

As Texacan says i;m telling you .That door is a closing get your ticket now before the rain starts falling .One needs their own boat because i don't intend for others to sink mine :bandwagon:


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## SquashNut (Sep 25, 2005)

I guess it depends on who you consiter your community. I know the churchs now take care of the people in their church but not those out side of their churchs near as much.
And that has been that way even before the crash in 2008. And that is the way it should be any way. The people who contribute should get the most help.
So making the claim that because of your faith you will treat people different than other preppers is incorrect at best.
There is a definit difference between taking care of community and taking care of just anyone.
Personally I am not sure we do any one any favors by saying we will take care of them. By doing this aren't we telling them they don't need to prepare? Is any one on here willing or able to take care of some one forever? Because that is what you are saying when you tell them they don't have to prepare. What will one bowl of soup do for them other than put off the time when you are unable to take care of them again and they are with out.
Some times tough love is the best help.


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## goatlady (May 31, 2002)

I REALLY get tired of having the preps of Joseph and Egypt bought up whenever a discussion comes up about prepping for others. Somehow the FACT that it is the Kings and Prime Ministers' jobs to take care of their country and it's citizens PLUS the fact they have the resources of the entire country to use for prepping gets lost in the presentations. Joseph just stockpiled the yearly in-kind payments to the government instead of selling it on the open market. Nobody is paying me a yearly stipend in-kind as I am NOT a king nor ruler of any country and I have extremely limited resources to draw upon. It the kings/rulers/PM's do not do their job, it's not up to me to fill in for them in any way!


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

Imo it is 100% impossible to prepare for others. I wish I could. best I can do is make plans that in theory might be just enough for the others in my greater community to squeeze by on. heck I couldnt even give them enough seed let alone food. There are simply to many people. 

If you have a very large homestead with an abundance of good soil, and wild foods, you might be able to take in a good number as my family did during the depression. But even then there are major limits. 

Its very noble some folks want to help everyone, but keep in mind a single drowning person and sink a good swimmer with the best of intentions. 100 of them and the best swimmer around will go down with them. Me? I will stay on shore entirely and if conditions permit try to call out to those drowning and offer them advice on saving themselves. The calm among them willing to work at it, might get lucky...


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## terri9630 (Mar 12, 2012)

silverseeds said:


> Im not sure where raton is, but its in the northern part of the state, and they arent irrigating this alfalfa, Id pay well for some seed.
> 
> I certainly never met anyone with horses who didnt use hay. These cattle are another matter though. They do overwinter them. I never asked enough to know their full set up but I always see some in winter and lots more in fall, I assume they thin the herds in fall. Couldnt say for sure. I do see a good amount any winter though. Im south of grants new mexico which is about an hour east of Albuquerque.
> 
> For the record even texas has had totally freerange cattle. Feral actually. They are the breed the long horns came from. Although much less desirable then what is used today, and probably needed more space. As the SW was settled a bunch of them became feral. They were pretty large herds actually. Later as it became more populated across texas there was a frenzy to claim them. i doubt any direct descendants of those exist, but that is where the long horns came from. They were rather skinny by todays standards but had huge horns.


Raton is north of Santa Fe almost to Colorado. We were there last month for the 4-H shooting sports district competition. We went through some nice grass lands wish we had that much grass here. Then we wouldn't need to feed so much hay.


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## FourDeuce (Jun 27, 2002)

After Katrina there was an article posted online by some guy who wasn't in New Orleans, but he was not too far away. He ended up with about 30 people living in his house. One lesson he did learn from that is that you have to be able to say "No" sometimes.:buds:


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## Sawmill Jim (Dec 5, 2008)

FourDeuce said:


> After Katrina there was an article posted online by some guy who wasn't in New Orleans, but he was not too far away. He ended up with about 30 people living in his house. One lesson he did learn from that is that you have to be able to say "No" sometimes.:buds:


Notice those people sat watching that storm come until it was to late . You think the ones that stayed learned anything ,i bet not . I know the wifes son was in it and he would do it again . No matter how much you do for folks there is no cure for stupid :hammer: :runforhills:


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## silverseeds (Apr 28, 2012)

terri9630 said:


> Raton is north of Santa Fe almost to Colorado. We were there last month for the 4-H shooting sports district competition. We went through some nice grass lands wish we had that much grass here. Then we wouldn't need to feed so much hay.


definitely WAY more grass up here then the low desert. The buffalo herds would actually travel through here every few years back in the days they still roamed.


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