# Top bar



## Big Dave

Anyone do top bar hives? Any good sites for plans to build them?


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## indypartridge

Big Dave said:


> Anyone do top bar hives? Any good sites for plans to build them?


You might get some ideas here:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm

http://beenatural.wordpress.com/top-bar-hives/


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## idigbeets

I can't believe you didn't google this... topbarbees.com


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## Big Dave

I will google it right now, thanks idigbeets.
Indy Partridge these sites are just great. Alot of information. I joined the local beekeepers club but no one wants to talk about TBH. I think this is the way I would like to go.Getting prepared for spring.Thank yall for the sites keep them coming if possible. I want all the knowledge I can obtain.


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## BjornBee

Here is some advice........

http://www.bjornapiaries.com/topbarbeekeeping.html


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## mare

thanks for the info on top bar hives


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## Sunmo

Dave, I've had lots of problems with top bar hives. I'm through with them, murdered them all. However, I'm currently about 80/20 between migratory langstroth hives,(like every one else), and Warre Hives, (best described as a verticle top bar). Weather here is about as cold and wet as west cent Ark. My Warre hives are calmer, nicer, sweeter bees than my langstroths and I think they are doing better. Like ordinary tbh they don't make as much honey and it's real hard to move them, but I like them better & they are tons cheaper.

One of the guys in the Olympia Bee Club wrote a pretty good article about Warre Hives in the current issue, (Jan-Feb 2012) of Countryside Mag. Other than the top feeder, the boxes are a lot easier to build. Google Warre Hives. If you don't have to make a living off of selling honey or polination services, I'd recommend building Warre Hives.


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## BjornBee

Thank you Mare.

Here is some info on Warre hives for those interested....

http://www.bjornapiaries.com/warrehivebeekeeping.html


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## idigbeets

Sunmo, 

Could you detail some of the problems you've had with top bar hives?


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## AverageJo

I'd like more info on the Warre hive setup. Can't you just make a Warre top to go on the langstroth hive boxes? Or do they HAVE to make new comb each year?


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## Big Dave

Ok so here is something else I did not know about bee's. Warre hives? Thanks for the info and keep it coming. I will not build a hive till spring. Then order my bees. We want the wax.


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## tom j

better find out when the place that you plan on getting your bees from take orders and stop taking orders , as every year some one waits til spring and find out they ether have a hard time finding them or can not get them at all... or can not get the race they want ..


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## WhyNot

idigbeets said:


> Sunmo,
> 
> Could you detail some of the problems you've had with top bar hives?


I'll second that. I'm about three days from building top bar hives and would like to hear of any issues people have had. Anyone else I have spoken to about them swear by them...but then again, some people have their own agenda.


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## Handyman

We started with a new tbh and package of bees this past spring.

Our bees wouldn't build straight comb across the tb. By the time we noticed, the comb on each tb was attached to the comb on the adjacent tb. WHAT A MESS! I'm not sure our bees will make it through the winter because of all of the destruction I did. I guess we should have been checking the hive every week or so to make sure that they were building straight comb. It's possible to correct the comb when it's empty, but not when it's full of honey. Also, we should have left the hive alone when we found the crossed comb. The best time to do major surgery is in the spring, when food is becoming available. 

They are fun to watch. I'm not too excited about the tbh deisgn, but I'll give it some more time before I consider going to the Warre hive.


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## BjornBee

If your not happy with a TBH, I don't think you will find it any easier with a Warre hive.


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## Sunmo

Problems with Warre Hives:

1. It's almost impossible to inspect them. You start with two boxes and add additional boxes when needed. You only take off boxes when you harvest honey. 

2. You need help lifting boxes. The whole hive has to be lifted in order to add new boxes. You will need a friend to help you lift the full boxes and another friend to slide the empty box under the whole hive.

3. Bees don't always build the comb along the top bars of the box. Sometimes you'll get bees that build comb in some of the most unusual ways. After two or three years, when that particular box moves to the top of the hive, it gets pulled off and the comb crushed and the bees start over again. 

4. Warre hives are top heavy. It hasn't happened to me yet, (I've only done this for a year), but I'm always scared that Western Washington is going to get some wicked wind storm and I'm going to find my hives acattered along the ground.

5. You can't move them. Like all top bar hives, the comb is not as strudy as the comb in langstroths frames. It's only secured on one side, while the langstroths are secured on all 4.

6. Warre hives produce a lot less honey and more wax than langstroths. Like all top bars, in order to produce honey you have to destroy the comb. I've read that it takes 8 lbs of honey, (my bee mentor tells me it's 12, so it's up there somewhere), to make one lb of honey. I've only done Warre's for a year, but I can see where I could end up with a lot more wax than I can use. 

7. Some people claim that Warre hives swarm less. I don't have the experience with my hives to argue for or against that claim. But since you can't inspect each of your frames, you'd never know if you'r bees are building swarm cells or not.

There are some advantages though. Advantages that make a Warre Hive seem better than a regular tbh.

1. In my part of the country, heat retention is a problem during the winter. Because Warres are stacked they retain heat similiar to a langstroth.

2. The quilt helps to insulate the hive and control moisture. This year I've built quilts for a couple langstroths, so I'll try them this spring, when it's warm enough to open the hives for spring inspection. 

3. I have read in a couple places that some beekeepers believe that the use of the same comb over and over may cause problems. Comb used over and over may increase the toxitidty of some insecticides, pesticides, and other icides that I don't even know about. I've read from some beekeeps that old comb may increase the chance of CCD. I've read where some beekeeps recommend rotating comb out every three years. In Warre Hives you rotate through comb a lot faster. It's newer, fresher.

4. My Warre Hives seem a lot more calmer.

5. The concept seems to be a lot more natural. Since bees, in nature, occupy a hollow tree, they build their comb down. They start by putting brood in the top and building comb down. In my experience, (when pulling hives from old trees, horse barns, and sheds), the brood always seems to be in the middle part of the comb, with honey stored in the top. In the Warre you don't mess with the brood comb until it's turned into honey and the brood has moved down into one of the lower boxes.

6. They are cheaper than langstroths. You have to make your own hive boxes, top and bottom boards, quilt box, and top feeder. There are pretty good instructions on building Warre's on the net. 

7. BjornBee provided a great link that explains things much better than I can: http://www.bjornapiaries.com 

While Warre's may not be much easier than regular tbh's, I think your chance of successful bee hive raising are greater. But if simplicity and easy were all we wanted, we'd stay with Langstroths. Warre Hives are for folks that want a bee hive over in the corner of their garden for pollination and a little honey for themselves and maybe an extra pint or two for the in-laws and the postman for Christmas.


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## idigbeets

So for someone who wants to slowly grow from a couple hives to more of a commercial operation to add other products to a farmer's market table, CSA etc, you would suggest the traditional langsworth over Warre/TBH?

I'm leaning towards the langsworth, even though in my limited bee keeping experience the TBH hives were more active and wintered over better (which surprised me) here in PA. But I also recognize there's a lot of reasons why that would have happened....

Anyhow thanks for your continuing support of these threads, I'll be joining my local bee club here in PA in the spring in the hopes of finding some local mentors !


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## mare

thanks for the great post Sunmo.


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## Kevin McCune

I have a Top Bar hive and think they are great! I'm building a second fro this spring. I had a little bit of cooked comb , but I just cut it out. I think the bar shape and width may have something to do with it. The following link has all kinds of top bar info as well as free plans.

http://www.biobees.com/

Kevin


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## fatrat

I've been looking into getting some bees and I really like what I read and hear about concerning top bar hives. Every time I hear about a problem with top bar hives it has come down to a lack of management on the part of the bee keeper and then they get angry and blame it on the design of the hive. That's like driving your car with never changing the oil and then when you have problems you blame the car.

When speaking with people who own both top bar and Langstroth hives I'm told they produce the same amount of honey and why wouldn't they if they hold the same amount of bees. Top bar hives are made in many different sizes though most are about four feet long. Your really just making a hollow log when you make a bee hive and hollow logs come in vertical and horizontal, the bees don't care. I've found wild honey bees in both. The key is in managing the top bar hive properly. You got to check it and remove honey because you can't just add more space to the hive.

You can't beat the price of the top bar hive or the ease of managing it. If you think you will lose honey production from the bees having to make more wax then just add another hive to make up for it. The ease of managing the top bar hive makes that easy to do. Some people say that the bees make comb more enthusiastically with a top bar and so the idea of losing production isn't an issue. As far as I can tell it always comes down to one thing, managing the hive. You can't try and manage a top bar just like you would a Langstroth.

I think for the hobbyist who just wants to produce some honey for themselves and plans on keeping their bees on just their own property the top bar seems the best way to go. If you want to move your hives around to various orchards and farms then you would probably want the langstroth hive.

I attended some meetings of bee keepers and it seemed like many of the old timers really did not like the top bar hive or the people who used them. Most didn't want to talk about it, hear about it, look at it or associate with those who used them. It was almost like they were afraid of it, stuck in tradition. It seems some people think if it isn't square and four feet tall it ain't bee keeping cause that ain't the way Grandpa did it.

The top bar is the most popular hive design in the world. How can a few people the industrialized nations have so many problems with the top bar when most of the bee keepers in the world use it very successfully? Obviously the answer is management. They are different and must be managed differently. I've never done bees but I've been wanting to and so have really tried to look into the advantages and disadvantages of both top bars and Langstroth hives with as little bias as possible and I've come to the conclusion that the top bar hive is the best kept secret in bee keeping in America.


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## tom j

the top bar may be better in the warmer parts were hives don't have the cold ,, but here in the north langs might winter best ... just one of my thoughts on top bar ... I did think about one for my grandson as he is still short , but he wants a lang hive ..


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## AverageJo

Has anyone tried making a square top bar hive where you can insert the Lang. frames in it? Or is there a reason to keep the wedge shape, other than it's the general shape of comb being built? I'm tempted to make a 4' long box and fit my Lang frames in it just to see how the bees do in it. If it worked, this method would reduce the heavy lifting, which I have problems with, AND it would allow for frames to be spun out instead of always crushed. Thoughts on this? Anyone try it? How did it work?


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## fatrat

I think the reason the top bar hives are triangular is so that the comb is better supported. The comb is not held in a frame and so it can break off if it is to heavy. Since it is attached by one side and tappers to a triangle shape most of the weight of the comb is at the top where it is attached to the bar. However if it was square and you dropped frames into it then I guess they would be supported in the frames. Maybe it would work. I don't see why not.

I've got no problem with the Langstroth hive and I would like to have a few some day just for the experience but for now I really need the economy of the top bar and the ease of managing it. It just happens to also make good sense on a small scale, on land where you don't have to move the hive and are able to check on it each week.


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## tom j

the way I understand the v shape is that is the angal the girls build comb when in nature ,,,, wild what ever you want to call it .. there is a certen degrees that the combs are built at in nature and if the box is built at that degree there should be little comb stuck on the sides .. this is my under standing


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## blaineiac

Here is a very informative site on TBH keeping, in NY. http://anarchyapiaries.org/. 

I don't think that overwintering is a problem if done correctly. I tried one with a late swarm, didn't make it. I do feel there is potential for them to be productive. I might work on another one this winter and hope for an early swarm from one of my Langs. Good Luck with it. Blaine


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## BjornBee

AverageJo said:


> Has anyone tried making a square top bar hive where you can insert the Lang. frames in it? Or is there a reason to keep the wedge shape, other than it's the general shape of comb being built? I'm tempted to make a 4' long box and fit my Lang frames in it just to see how the bees do in it. If it worked, this method would reduce the heavy lifting, which I have problems with, AND it would allow for frames to be spun out instead of always crushed. Thoughts on this? Anyone try it? How did it work?


Here is some info on trench hives. They can use both top bar systems or full frames.

http://www.bjornapiaries.com/uniquebeekeeping.html


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## CarolT

Check state regulations. I was told top bar hives are illegal in AL because they can't be inspected when the state guy comes to check for mites etc.


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## blaineiac

TBH's have removable frames so they are legal. Warre hives on the other hand may be questionable due to the tear down time.


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## CarolT

OK, will have to double check. Could swear they said top bar... And wouldn't be the first time someone meant something other than what came out of their mouth LOL


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## BjornBee

blaineiac said:


> TBH's have removable frames so they are legal. Warre hives on the other hand may be questionable due to the tear down time.


Top bar hives are called top bar hives, because they DO NOT have frames. They do however have removable comb.

Most state laws do not actually use the term removable "frames" but do call for the use of removable comb.

Many insectors over the years have made statements about TBH either out of ignorance or the fact they just do not agree with them. But once shown that they can be inspected, they have little problems with them. And they should make the effort to work with TBH beekeepers, or face the fact that if they don't, it just encourages beekeepers to hide hives and not register all their hives or yards. 

Warre hive groupies, just few years ago, promoted no frames in Warre hives. They also made some rather bold claims about Warre hives having almost no swarming, and other made up crap to promote them. Due to bad publicity and OBVIOUS problems with what they were claiming, some huge changes have been implemented over the past several years. If you read the bottom of this page, I have outlined some of them. http://www.bjornapiaries.com/warrehivebeekeeping.html

Traditionally Warre hives did not use frames. But due to limitations and state laws, as well as user problems with comb attachment, they have been changing their promotion and suggestions to include the use of frames.


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## mooman

> Has anyone tried making a square top bar hive where you can insert the Lang. frames in it? Or is there a reason to keep the wedge shape, other than it's the general shape of comb being built? I'm tempted to make a 4' long box and fit my Lang frames in it just to see how the bees do in it. If it worked, this method would reduce the heavy lifting, which I have problems with, AND it would allow for frames to be spun out instead of always crushed. Thoughts on this? Anyone try it? How did it work?


I have a v shaped "Kenyan" TBH and a "Tanzanian" TBH built to take medium Lang frames. They are both in thier first winter, but so far so good (im in SC).

I orginally built the v shaped hive because it is supposed to cut down on the amount of connections the bees build between the comb and the walls. I bought a nuc from a local keeper. It was actually a full hive and was so strong he split it and sold me both (which meant I had to hussle to put a second hive together) 

Together we did the "crop and chop" procedure and bolted the lang frames to the top bars in the V shaped hive. WHAT A NIGHTMARE!! (imagine trying to fit a square peg in a round hole while it is covered with angry bees) The hive survived and built new combs on the top bars, but has never seemed as robust as my other hive.

After that experience I built a second hive to house the other split that he sold be. I built it to accept lang frames and just popped them right in. The hive was very active and very strong all summer.


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## CarolT

Ok, checked, and yes, top bar hives are not allowed in AL. Since removing the frame to inspect the bottom of the hive is an essential part of the inspection and the top bar hive bees apparently tend to fasten comb to other bars and the sides (I have no experience, I am only saying what I was told) and it can destroy the comb by removing bars, they just decided to not have the issues of dealing with them. All hives must be registered and branded, and regularly inspected for problems. All this is a serious effort to control diseases and spread of Africanized bees.


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## fatrat

deleted by fatrat.


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## fatrat

deleted by fatrat.


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## DayBird

CarolT, with whom did you check? I was told just last week by a representative of the Calhoun County Beekeepers Assaociation that they were legal. He also said they were a waste of time and that he'd never try one.


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## CarolT

Madison County Beekeepers Association person conducting our class. He said he'd checked with the north AL inspector. I will say I can't find anything when I look under the state code, but that doesn't always mean it's not there, just that I'm not looking in the right place...


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## Pat

Big Dave, 

Thanks for starting this thread! I'd also like to thank the various contributors. I had thought about trying bees for 1 last time, then, realized (as with so many things now) my back wouldn't allow me to use a Lamg hive. 

I heard hands on about top bar hives last weekend, and thanks to this thread, I found my more about them, and got the plans "how to build a top bar hive" by Philip Chandler. Between the photos and the descriptions (and specifications in English as well as Metric) that I think I can make it (will start this week soon as I get some wood).

Again, thanks Big Dave and the various contributors. This has been one of the most informative threads I've seen on HT in a long while.

Pat


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## GBov

I saw plans for a TB hive that had triangle shaped frames. Does anyone use those?

And trough hives? Going to go google and learn a new thing!

My hubby got me bees last spring and I have to say, if he wasnt working them for me they would never get done. I am simply not strong enough or tall enough to work them so I get to fetch and carry and "Here, hold THIS!"


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## Patrick

It's been a while since I've talked with any serious bee keepers, but from my observations, I see why many of them won't endorse them. It seems to me that these top bar hives are yet another product of today's instant gratification, Wal Mart mentality want-it cheap-and-easy-no-matter-the consequences society. Langstroth hives are not used simply because no one wants to change, like fatrat wrote but then deleted. They are used because they work. No one has come up with a better solution, especially not these fads which are cheap and easy to start with, but are inefficient and impractical. In 5 years they will be looked back at with wonder that anyone bothered to try them in the first place. If you know anything about beekeeping it is obvious why they won't work well. If you are new and think that you have stumbled on a groundbreaking discovery, you will learn the hard way. Then see how expensive a traditional hive really is after you've wasted your time and money on a top bar.


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## idigbeets

I was at a ag conference recently and attended a beekeeping seminar. It was all about top bar hives, and the thousands of them that are being used in apiaries all over the country. Successfully. 

What makes them so bad in your mind Patrick?


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## fatrat

Patrick,

I deleted that because I felt my words were a bit harsh. I still stand behind what I said though. The truth is top bar hives have been around for thousands of years and used very successfully by many people. There is no arguing with that fact unless your just so stuck in your ways that you can't accept anything but the conventional. Langstroth hives are excellent hives as proven over time. For some they are ideal. However top bar hives are alos excellent as proven over time and for some people are ideal. We have here two very good methods of raising bees for honey and it is up to the individual to decide which is best for themselves.

It seems that so many of the Langstroth owners who can't see any value in the top bar hive don't even understand it. For example I read an article of one person who was trying out one of the "new" top bar hives and had a problem with it blowing over in the wind. When I saw the picture of it I thought "well dummy what do you expect?". They hadn't even put put any sort of legs or base on it so it could stay up, sort of like setting a coke bottle upside down and expecting it to stay standing. How could they be so stupid? Easy if they have decided beforehand that the top bar is no good then they will make stupid decisions because they expect it to not work, don't want it to work and don't want to find out how it does work.


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## mooman

I went with top bar hives because I could make them with my limited woodworking skills and with a much smaller monetary investment. If I had had to shell out all the money for a Lang hive I could not have afforded it and would have put it off another year.

Here I am a year later with 2 TB hives for much less than it would have cost to buy one Lang hive. I made them with my own two hands, have learned a ton about bee keeping and am about to get my first honey harvest.

Seems better than spending another year reading about bees, buying honey at the grocery and leafing through a catalog wishing I had taken the plunge.

Just my 2 cents


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## Slick

Back in 1980 through 1990 I ran 20 Langstroth hives had all the standard equipment and everything worked fine I was happy with my set up then sold out to a friend that wanted them more than I did. He has since died and I do not know what became of the hives.

Now I have decided to keep a few hives and after much thinking I decide it would be all Top Bar Hives I just want to keep bees for the pure pleasure of it. 

To go one step more I want feral bees and hopefully I will be able to get what I have been watching. A feral colony in a tree its been there a couple of years I know, run up on it by accident and have just been watching it. This year I will set a swarm trap not far from it and will see what happens no big deal either way. Still enjoying them either way. They have become small bees and reverted back to dull dark looking bees. A good example of MUTTS.


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## gabbyraja

I just ran across the description and instructions for the TBH. I'm intrigued and came here for more info. I like the idea. My favorite part is that it doesn't look obviously like a bee hive, so nobody would have issue with it being in my yard... The there's the ease of handling for someone not terribly strong, and just the plain simplicity of use. I HAVE a langs hive. I bought it used 4 years ago, and it has sat in my garage while I'm paralized by not being able to figure out if I've got everything I need, how to set it up, how to put new bees into it, etc, etc. I've even joined my local beekeepers assoc, could probably get a mentor out here, but still wouldn't know what the heck I'm doing... I think I'll start with a TBH. So simple and easy. The only thing that concerns me is how to insulate for winter. It does get below zero here for a couple of weeks every year...


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## motdaugrnds

I'm enjoying this thread and sure appreciate the OP starting it.

I've been considering setting up 1-2 bee hives for several years now, feeling rather overwhelmed at the prospects of dealing with it by myself. (An elderly woman with arthritic problems can only do so much, even though I've defined myself as superwoman all my adult life.)


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## gabbyraja

That's my thing, too. I'd like to get into bees, I've been held back by the sheer greatness of everything that needs to be done, including the physical aspect, but this seems like a much less complicated and less physically demanding way to do bees. I'd say it's worth a try...


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## TriWinkle

gabbyraja said:


> That's my thing, too. I'd like to get into bees, I've been held back by the sheer greatness of everything that needs to be done, including the physical aspect, but this seems like a much less complicated and less physically demanding way to do bees. I'd say it's worth a try...


Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## BobbyB

Well, there seems to be a big TBH following in Texas. And, there is a seminar in 2 weeks that I am attending put on by some folks that swear by them.

Its close by, the class fee is minimal, so I decided to go see for myself. 

I have zero experience with bees other occasionally getting stung. From what I have read and such, a TBH just seems the way to go to have a hive for the garden and getting a bar of comb out for the honey every once in a while.


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## bluefish

gabbyraja said:


> I just ran across the description and instructions for the TBH. I'm intrigued and came here for more info. I like the idea. My favorite part is that it doesn't look obviously like a bee hive, so nobody would have issue with it being in my yard... The there's the ease of handling for someone not terribly strong, and just the plain simplicity of use. I HAVE a langs hive. I bought it used 4 years ago, and it has sat in my garage while I'm paralized by not being able to figure out if I've got everything I need, how to set it up, how to put new bees into it, etc, etc. I've even joined my local beekeepers assoc, could probably get a mentor out here, but still wouldn't know what the heck I'm doing... I think I'll start with a TBH. So simple and easy. The only thing that concerns me is how to insulate for winter. It does get below zero here for a couple of weeks every year...



I don't have your moisture issue, but I do have plenty of cold. My bees did just fine in their top bar hive last winter. I never had issues with the langs either in winter and I never insulated them. I did make a 'winter' top for my box that has a bunch of old straight off the sheep wool stuffed in it, but I don't know if it actually helps or not. The sides of my box are just plain 1x4.


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## sdharlow

Get the ABC's of Top-Bar Beekeeping from the person, the Top-Bar community considers the Master. Les Crowder. His book, Top-Bar Beekeeping is extremely detailed, and if you follow his instructions, you are going to have just as much success, as those with Langstroths. You are going to find that most people who are in love with the Langstroths, will only talk Junk about Top-Bars, because they have never learned HOW to manage a Top-Bar. The management techniques are totally Night and Day difference. You try to treat a Top-Bar like a Langstroth, you're going to fail every time. Get the book, get the Knowledge, Have the Success!! :happy:


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## Azrael

sdharlow said:


> Get the ABC's of Top-Bar Beekeeping from the person, the Top-Bar community considers the Master. Les Crowder. His book, Top-Bar Beekeeping is extremely detailed, and if you follow his instructions, you are going to have just as much success, as those with Langstroths. You are going to find that most people who are in love with the Langstroths, will only talk Junk about Top-Bars, because they have never learned HOW to manage a Top-Bar. The management techniques are totally Night and Day difference. You try to treat a Top-Bar like a Langstroth, you're going to fail every time. Get the book, get the Knowledge, Have the Success!! :happy:


I JUST finished Top Bar Beekeeping last night, it is a great book, only 160 pages with lots of pictures so a quick read. If you do not know much about beekeeping you will need another book as well because Crowder's focus is more on the management of a top bar hive than it is an introduction to beekeeping. I really enjoyed how he treats bees similar to livestock, if they have problems he recommends requeening from a strong hive with good genetics, no different than culling cows when you don't get the results you need. He is also firmly against the use of miticides, antibiotics, etc and does not use them due to his belief that by using those we are weakening the hives genetics. He is very much in favor of using Russian queens to help control varroa mites as they naturally adapted to cleanse each other of the mites instead of just dying off like most others.

He also recommends trying to get your hives started with local bees if possible as they will already be adapted to your climate.

I think the langstroh's are very good for commercial production, a large number can fit on a trailer or in a truck for those who transport to many different locations for pollination, they also produce a lot more honey as in a TBH all comb has to be drawn from scratch. It is also easier (and less messy) to extract using a Langstroh design.


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## gabbyraja

My beekeepers' association is of the same mind about natural selection and culling. We have the head of entomology at Michigan State University in our group, though, so... There is someone in GA that has allowed natural selection to select for VERY mite resistant queens, purposely causing 80% of his bees to die, in order to keep only the strongest. (I can't remember the beekeeper's name now, but I'll try to post back after next month's mtg) We are ordering nucs as a group from this beekeeper this spring. I hope that it turns out well for us all!


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## BobbyB

I went to a Top Bar seminar today. It was very interesting and informative. 

The guy explained the need to check the hive about every 2 weeks to keep the comb being built in an orderly fashion. , How to keep the brood comb and the honey comb separate and easy to manage. and reasons that bars become stuck together and how to help the bees build without doing it.

He did say he has met resistance at bee keepers meetings in the past, but it is letting up some. And he did say that TBHs are not the best way for a commercial bee keeper to go, but for people that want a couple of hives for their gardens, orchards and honey enough for family and friends, they are what he reccomends. 

I learned more in the 3 hours there than I have in months of internet searching and reading.


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## fatrat

I have top bar hives and here are a few things I've learned that have helped me.

1. DO NOT EVER TAKE ADVICE ON TOP BAR BEE KEEPING FROM ANYONE WHO HAS HAD ONLY LANGSTROTH HIVES.

2. You may have heard this before and it is true, "never hang the queen cage". They will just build comb all around it faster than you think. Instead put it in the bottom of the hive. You can rubber band it to a small block of wood so it won't tip over.

3. When you put the queen cage in the bottom of the hive put it against the back wall. This will encourage them to build the first comb straight by following the wall. If you put it in the middle of the hive they have nothing to follow for building the first comb, other than the bar which sometimes is not be enough for some bees. If you put it in the middle of the hive it increases the chance of them making a crossed comb.

4. If robbing becomes a problem do not decrease the entrance size unless you have allowed for ventilation somewhere else on the hive. Most top bar hives seem to have solid bottoms and no vents. 

5. Feed just dry sugar poured in the bottom of the hive. It works great and they eat it up fast. Don't mess around with syrup.

6. If a comb collapses don't worry, DON'T LEAVE IT IN THE BOTTOM OF THE HIVE and don't throw it out. Have some top bar frames ready to go. Put the comb in the frame just rubber band it in the frame. They will build that comb right into the frame and chew off the rubber bands. And by the way that frame is now a straight comb and they will follow it for the next comb.

7. Check the hive every day for the first week after installing a new package. It's easy to open a top bar hive without disturbing the bees. You need to be sure everything is being built straight. If it's not cut the crossed part of any comb off and they will rebuild it quickly, chances are the new comb will be straight. If the part you cut off has eggs or brood put it in a frame and let them continue to build it. That framed comb is now a straight comb.

8. Put the entrance to the hive at one end and at the top.

9. Don't worry about brood and honey being in the same comb. You just don't harvest those combs. Only harvest the combs with only honey, no big deal. I've never seen them put brood and honey in every comb.

10. Put a layer of insulation in the cover to keep the hot sun off the combs.

11. Don't try to straighten a crossed or crooked comb. You can't. The only time I've had collapsed combs is when I tried to mess with them. Just cut off the crooked part and make sure the last comb being built is straight. You can put the crooked part in a frame if you want. That framed comb is now a straight comb and they will follow it.

12. If you have a top entrance the width of the hive, "a removed bar", at the end of the hive you do not need any other ventilation unless you reduce the entrance because of robbing. Then you must have additional ventilation.

13. Once things are going well after installing a new package check the hive once a week. You can check a top bar hive without disturbing the bees by just pulling out one or two bars and looking at the last couple combs. You don't need to go back and check all of them as those were checked the previous week and you know they are straight.

14. Harvesting honey is really very easy. Just crush the comb and let it drain through a fine screen.

15. IF YOU RUN INTO PROBLEMS DON'T BE CLOSED MINDED AND BLAME IT ON THE TYPE OF HIVE. CHANCES ARE YOU DID SOMETHING STUPID AND YOU ARE TO BLAME, NOT THE HIVE. FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU DID. FIX IT IF YOU CAN AND DON'T DO IT AGAIN.

Well the list could go on and on but that's a bit that has helped me.


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## TRAILRIDER

Thank you for that advice. I have been wondering about top bar hives after reading a few articles in Backwoods Home Magazine. It seems I could build one or two fairly easy by myself. I'll have to do some more research before I start. Thanks.


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## NCGarden

We started beekeeping last year, with a single top bar hive. Had a similar negative experience many of you had with our local beekeepers association. We installed bees, and they promptly absconded 2-3 weeks later. Installed a second package, and they built amazing comb, and seem to be surviving the winter (note to the unwary - they do NOT like to be disturbed when they have hunkered down for the winter). This spring we are adding a Langstrom just to see the difference, although we are using the smaller size to deal with the weight (8 frame instead of 10). My favorite part of the Top Bar? The little window we put in which lets me look at the bees without opening the hive at all!!


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