# serious cattle health issue (very long)



## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Several months ago, we started loosing calves for an unknown reason. For the most part, only 2010 born calves were affected. Wait, I should back up to what led up to this. Around Thanksgiving we had an elderly cow lay down and die on us. She had no teeth, we discovered, and assumed that was the cause of her death.

Then, same week, we had a younger cow develop an internal absess of some sort and she was dead in a few days. Same day, a year old steer laid down and died. We assumed, due to his unusual small size, he had something wrong with him. We cut him open and his guts smelled like sewage. (I know, shouldn't assume) Next day, we had a cow trip and get her head stuck in the feeder and although we tried to save her, we had to shoot her due to, we figure, nerve damage. Some people here will remember that story.

A week later, the calf of the cow with the absess laid down and died. (a mixed breed) He was eating and drinking just fine, and was plenty old enough to be weaned. The calf of the old cow that died had no issue, she lived and we eventually sold her and she is alive and well. (a highlander)
Same day, our Longhorn bull calf died. We discovered his mother had no milk, but he was, like all the others at least 6 months old, and should have been fine without milk at that age.

Same week, a holstein and a jersey bottle bull we were feeding dropped dead. The holstein had always been not quite right, so we assumed that was the primary cause of death. The jersey, we got the vet out here, and discussed symptoms, etc, and he told us a vit. B deficiency based on the possibility of a moldy alfalfa pellet. (what I think is he didn't have a clue)

Then, same week, a year old holstein steer and 2 heifer calves ended up in the water tank. One heifer was a highlander, one a mixed breed. It was about 15 degrees outside. The holstein was never right after that and died within 10 days. The mixed breed heifer had problems pooping after that, and had blood from there for a long time. We had the vet out again, and he had no answer for her problem. We assumed slightly twisted gut or she got horned in the rear. She still ate and drank fine, and 6 weeks or so later, laid down and died. The highlander heifer, fine and well today.

Same week, a mix breed bull calf laid down and died. DH drove his carcass to the lab at UW Madison for testing. We just got the results back. We were told it took so long because of the whole 200 head herd that died from the moldy sweet potatoes, and testing on that took priority.

We were told, they found strongolids, but not excessive and dehydration.

While we were waiting for the results on that calf to come back from the lab, we had 3 grown cows, with near full term calves in them, and a 2 year old steer drop dead. We cut them all open. They all had full bellies and the food was plenty moist. (3 mixed breeds and a longhorn) None of these 4 animals were down on weight and all behaved normally, and ate and drank normally. They were just simply dead one morning. Except one. She suddenly couldn't get up and when we put her in straps and lifted her, she wouldn't even try to put her feet down. It's as if she had no will to live.
We also had to shoot a highlander calf that was suddenly doing poorly, 
(I think she fell and got stepped on).

Now we have a cow, and a bull that in a very short period of time have lost an enormous amount of weight and are doing poorly. And another cow that looks to be losing weight but is not in any danger yet. (2 mixes and a longhorn)

NOW, because of the excessive flooding we had over the summer, and the fact that we had to buy in hay, some of the hay we have had for feeding over winter has not been that great. There was some that was particularly bad, and some that had a bit of mold in it. 

I do realize that part of the problem is that some hay was poor, there for having low nutritional value. However, the calf we took to the lab was tested negative for mold spores or bacterias obtained from eating bad hay. We have been alternating it with some really good hay we have.

We have a separate area where we have been moving cows due to calve, as they come due. The cow that has lost a bunch of weight and is doing bad now has been in this separate area for about 6 weeks now. She calved about 
2 1/2 weeks ago and at that point was at full weight and doing great. She suddenly lost her milk and began losing weight at a rapid pace. Now I am bottle feeding the calf. For the past 10 days, I have been hand feeding her gallons of oats for extra energy to try and save her. Same with the bull. 
The cow that seems to be beginning to lose weight calved a few days ago and had a very small amount of milk, and I believe its gone. I am also bottle feeding that calf.

There are 4 other cows in the calving area now. 3 that have had calves and one due anytime. the 3 that have calves already are 2 highlanders and one half highlander, and the one due is a highlander. they are all fat and great. and the 3 with calves on them are being nursed by all the calves at once (they play musical nipples) and all are in heavy milk.

This separate area for the calving cows has free access to prime beef hay. No mold, maybe 60% alfalfa, stored inside. We paid good for this hay, yet this cow is still withering away. This tells me the hay ain't the problem.

I took a fecal in from her yesterday and she came back clean for both worms and coccidia.

At this point, the vet has been less than helpful. I am mad and I am sure they know it. One vet told me they weren't getting enough groceries, which is dumb, because they have feed all the time and every dead animal had food in them. He even told me that about this cow that is doing bad now. Free access to prime hay, daily oats, and she isn't getting enough groceries, according to him. 

The other vet was shocked and appalled when he found out we don't have a nutritionist regulating our rations for us. I told him, Jon, you know we are a grass-fed beef operation. This cow is getting prime hay, some oats on the side, free choice loose mineral, and fresh water all the time. What exactly more does a grass-fed beef animal need? 
He was furious, and stated, well, they need A LOT more than that! I told him, we have been raising grass-fed cattle for near 15 years and this is the first time we have ever had a problem. He said, well sometimes people just have problems! and he ended the conversation.

I am just posting this story now, because before, when we had an issue with some sick pigs, I posted right away for help. I got a lot of flack from people because we didn't have the vet out immediately, etc.. I stated then, the vet was relatively worthless, and again, got s*** for it from some of the board members.
Well, here is our cattle story. The vet has been involved from day one, has taken 100's of our dollars, and we are 15 grand in the hole for lost cattle, an angry vet and no answers. 

Anyone here have an idea? 

At this point, we are considering getting out of cattle, and that is sad, because we have an established customer base, 10 customers begging for us to start a meat CSA, a contract with 3 schools, and a dozen more schools and a grocery store who want our beef.

And why, are none of the highlanders affected by this mystery problem? (knock on wood)


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

no clue but wow, that's a lot of trouble and some seriously unhelpful vets.

I hope you get help soon!

(did you see the highlanders that need a new home due to barn fire on madison craigslist?)


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Sorry for all the losses, they seem so random..

I assume they checked the liver of the carcass you sent in. 

Have you ever tested your forage to see what your minerals look like? If they are deficient in certain things, they will just have poor immune systems, not be able to handle stressers etc. It would only be a good thing, even if not enough to fix the problem.


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## susieM (Apr 23, 2006)

Do the livers have white spots on them?


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Wow! That is a lot of losses and you must be pulling your hair out. I am sorry.

I am also sorry to say, it really does sound like the nutritional needs of the animals are not being met. Highlanders are known as tougher animals who can get by on next to nothing. So if they are fine and the rest are dying - well, the logic follows. For example, the Longhorn cow who went dry. Longhorns in Wisconsin are a fish out of water anyway. They are not adapted for those kinds of winters and would need a lot of extra nutrition/energy. Which obviously, she didn't get if she went dry. Sounds like she was doing so poorly she went into survival mode. A 6 month old weaned calf can do fine on good pasture, but it sounds like your hay was too poor to sustain the calf. So I would suggest testing your hay to start. If it comes back too low on protein, you can supplement with some of the protein blocks or cake. Also, what kind of shelter do they have? If they are constantly cold and especially if they can't get dry, their nutrional needs will be much higher.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Have you had them tested for johnies, I`m just grasping at straws here. You have had nothing but bad luck, sorry you don`t have a better vet. I have a vet. for as little as I use him, is about the best you could ever ask for, he would never think of getting curt with you, very helpfull and will go out of his way to find out what is wrong. Man I have no idea what could be happening with your cows, but I wish you luck in finding out what it could be. > Thanks Marc


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## B & B Farms (Jan 12, 2011)

Decades of raising cattle here, grass fed btw, I have to agree with Mo Cows!

Sorry for all your loses!

Allene


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

You have a very strange problem to say the least. I would guess what ever is going on is not feed related. How ever. its somethign that got washed up and spread into your place. 
Now do any of the cattle that die seem to bloat excessivly? The reason I ask this is due to the smell you discribed in the one you cut open. What ever you have there is a fast acting bacteria. The ones that are thin and not looking good have been exposed but it did not kill them. One nasty that comes to mind is a colstridial bactreria. One common name which covers many form is blackleg. If you ever experinced a full blown case of it you will never forget the smell. Milder forms of it will kill fast but also the cattle can survive it. Penicillin is a quick treatment for it if you catch it in time. 
Start doing some looking back into some of the old time dieses in cattle that have not had any out breaks in many years. Useall floods stir thing sup like that.
If you like PM with as much info as you can on the syptoms and such and even temps if you got them. I will pass it along to my vet and see if he has a idea.
Bob


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

The one steer with the sewer smell was the only one that had guts that smelled like that. All the organs on all of them looked fine. I will look up black leg. 
We are kind of grasping at straws also, so any suggestion I could research would be welcome. We are going to take some hay samples to the mill tomorrow for testing. I have also called another vet, that is kind of far, but came recommended by a woman who has very expensive horses. If she trusts her horses to them, they have to be worth talking to. They will be out here tomorrow.

oh, and yes I saw those Highlanders on craigslist. Emailed the woman twice, she never emailed me back.


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## bruce2288 (Jul 10, 2009)

What kind of age do these poor doing cows have? The one you commented on being a gummer. I have kept a few last calf heifers a year too long myself. the dead truck does not only not pay they charge.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

Wow! I'm grasping at straws here too, but FWIW here goes. 

Was any of the hay over mature canary grass? This is very low in protein and can kill a cow quickly. You need protein supplement with this kind of feed.

Grass tetney. This is usually a problem with green growing wheat or other grain type grass. Never heard of it in hay, but I suppose it could happen. Grass Tetney (not sure of the spelling) is a magnesium deficiency. 

I also thought of Blackleg, as has been mentioned. 

The only advice I can offer is to give them the best mineral that money can buy, and vaccinate them for everything possible.

Good luck.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

I have heard of cows straving to death ,,..with there head in a hay ring full of hay......that is what it sounds to me...just because the guts are full does not mean they are getting what they need...I would give probis to everything and give them some kind of guick protien you like


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## FlowerFieldFarm (Feb 5, 2011)

Can you post some photos of the cows right now, both the ones that are doing well and the ones that are looking dumpy? Maybe that will help get some answers.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

I agree, get your feed tested. Just because it looks good doesn't mean that it is good. Once you know the quality of your feed you can go from there, and I would suggest that if the vets are wrong about the feed being the problem then I would be looking for a new vet....

Blackleg is another good suggestion to look into, although if you have had vets involved, they should have picked up on that .

Have you had any of the dead cattle post mortemed? If you haven't I would suggest having at least one of them done. At this point I would be testing for everything under the sun.


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## bigfoot2you (Oct 3, 2007)

WOW! What horrid luck!! Last winter we lost 2 calves like you.........fine one minute, dead the next..........still don't know why.........

A few years ago the dairy farmers here in Maine were having problems with their cows aborting........turned out to be the Canadian Geese........they flew in, in the spring and were eating left overs in the pastures, and their poo was causing the cows to abort.........just an idea.....


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

At the risk of sounding crude and rude, my advice is to get out of the cattle business. With all your problems, no way would I buy a beef from you anyway. There is either something poisonous on your farm or you are feeding such poor hay that they are simply starving. Like Meyersfarm says, cattle can starve with a belly full of hay. Maybe your vet is trying to tell you this. I'm sorry to be so blunt.


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## rancher1913 (Dec 5, 2008)

if it is feed problems get them a protein tub asap, if they won't leave it alone that should tell you for sure its feed related. around here we feed cornstalks and its a must to suppliment. sucks to have ---- poor vets, ours are top of the line and come running anytime day or night, even give advice over the phone for free. the last month before calving is really important to have enough protein. also try getting so probiotics


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## rancher1913 (Dec 5, 2008)

ment some probiotics in them


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

LFG, I grass feed 12 months of the year and supplement with hay over the winter. What I can't ascertain from your post is whether these cows and calves are out on pasture as well as getting the hay and oats? If they are penned at the moment, the hay and oats isn't really enough to maintain them but I suspect that there is something else going on in conjuction with it.

I know that if I had lost that many cattle in such a short time my vets would be turning themselves inside out to find the problem - and if it was starvation they would also tell me, and advise how to deal with it. 

The first thing your vet should be doing is taking bloods and testing for Copper, Cobalt, Selenium and Pepsinogen (ostertagia damage). Copper and Cobalt deficiency will both lead to inthriftyness/starvation despite having adequate food, healthy calves at weaning start to deteriorate and stock under stress such as in-calf cows, gummy cows etc. will go downhill. This is personally where I would be starting - I would want to rule out that there wasn't anything else going on with the cattle that was compromising them.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

we sent a calf to the diagnostic lab at UWMadison and said find the cause of death. I don't know if they tested for these things or not. But the results were inconclusive.
The ages of the cattle varied. The gummy cow, we did not know her age. Nor did we know her teeth were gone. The grown animals that died were all between 2 and 8. Otherwise, calves in the 6 month old range.

ksfarmer, I don't take your comment as rude. Keep in mind, however, all this has happened between Thanksgiving and now. It has been going on only a very SHORT period of time. We have been raising and selling beef for 15 years. The old cow, whom was the first to die, only died around 11 weeks ago, and we have NEVER had a problem like this before. 
Last winter, we lost a grand total of 3 animals. All newborns, 2 from 1st time heifers, and all due to being born at 3 in the morning in a freezing rainstorm. Our fault. Winter before, lost a grand total of zero.

Ronney, there is no pasture for them to eat. Everything is under 1-3 feet of snow and has been since mid-december. Normal for here. We wont have pasture until the first of May. However, they are 'out'. They are free to wander into the pasture, but simply choose not too because of the snow and ice.

Question. how to get probiotics into them? We have probios in giant pill form, but stuffing those down their throats? Impossible. Most of these animals are not really handleable, as is the nature of a beef animal, and if we were fortunate enough to own a head chute, it wouldn't matter, as most of our animals have huge racks. And the longhorn bull bit me today.

And I will be researching all these suggestions tonight, thank you.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

probotics can be what I have used and have on hand ...called FASTRACK..it can be added to feed

1 to 2 oz per animal...or 2.5 to 5 pounds per ton of feed


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## Welshmom (Sep 7, 2008)

I lost track in your post how many animals have died. In all my experience with animals, very very few ever actually just "lay down and die'. They show symptoms for hours, days or weeks ahead. Certainly not by the dozen. And you list very few actual symptoms - what about temperature, muscle tone, fur condition, attitude, etc? What about vaccinations?
You have had two vets who are familiar with your farm tell you you are not providing proper feed. That leads me to suspect you are not providing proper feed. 
If you can't give an animal what it needs to survive, you have no business owning them. If you can't protect them from basic hazards on your place, you're not trying hard enough. 
Sorry, but I am with KS Farmer here. 
We have all had losses, sometimes very frustrating mystery diseases even can crop up. But your situation seems to be drawn out, and beyond 'bad luck'. 
If you can't find a vet that can figure out what is going on, perhaps the county can help you find one who will.


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## MARYDVM (Jun 7, 2004)

The three cows and one steer all died at the same time? And all were in good weight? Malnutrition wouldn't cause 4 animals to drop dead simultaneously. Were they near each other? Inside or out? I don't know what your setup is, but if you have electric fences, or electricity in the barn, you might want to check for stray voltage. It doesn't take much electricity to damage or kill a cow.


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## FlowerFieldFarm (Feb 5, 2011)

The more I thought about this... if you have been feeding the poor hay as well as the good hay, have you noticed any foreign objects in the hay, especially metal? Although they seem to have died quickly, hardware is a possibility.


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## TamBerk (Aug 17, 2010)

Have you ever had your water tested?


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

MARYDVM said:


> The three cows and one steer all died at the same time? And all were in good weight? Malnutrition wouldn't cause 4 animals to drop dead simultaneously. Were they near each other? Inside or out? I don't know what your setup is, but if you have electric fences, or electricity in the barn, you might want to check for stray voltage. It doesn't take much electricity to damage or kill a cow.


 I agree with you Mary. There is no feed issue here. If a cow looks fine today and is dead tomorrow its a diesease. More then likely a fast bacteria. I never gave a thought to the stray voltage. But knowing what the weather was like last year here. i could imagine some nasty bug get washed up and causeing this. 
A few other things to do is check with your neighbors and the hay suppliers. See if anyone else has had issues like this.
Bob


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

One cow and one steer died the same night. It was snowing heavy and when we went in at 11:30 everyone was standing in a group and hunkered against the weather as they always do. The next morning the cow and steer were on their sides, dead and buried.

One cow, when we fed that morning she wouldn't get up. We picked her up with straps and although she was moving all her limbs, she wouldn't put any effort into trying to stand. We kept her up for half hour massaging her legs, etc.. Then her head went down and she lolled to the side and hung there..no will to live. We shot her.

The other cow, when I went in that night, she was laying down in a group of others. Her head was up, she was alert and looking around. I actually petted her on my way in, as she was one of my favorites. The next morning, she was in the exact same spot, except dead.

This all happened within 10 days of each other, roughly.

No voltage issues. We have electric fence, but because of the insulating qualities of deep snow, the current is very low, and no barn, so no issues there. Each of the grown animals that died were touching or near nothing.

We have not had the water tested anytime lately. Its been about 5 years. It is the same water we drink, and we keep koi in the tanks to control algae and mosquitos and they are fine.

_I lost track in your post how many animals have died. In all my experience with animals, very very few ever actually just "lay down and die'. They show symptoms for hours, days or weeks ahead. Certainly not by the dozen. And you list very few actual symptoms - what about temperature, muscle tone, fur condition, attitude, etc? What about vaccinations?
You have had two vets who are familiar with your farm tell you you are not providing proper feed. That leads me to suspect you are not providing proper feed. 
If you can't give an animal what it needs to survive, you have no business owning them. If you can't protect them from basic hazards on your place, you're not trying hard enough. 
Sorry, but I am with KS Farmer here. 
We have all had losses, sometimes very frustrating mystery diseases even can crop up. But your situation seems to be drawn out, and beyond 'bad luck'. 
If you can't find a vet that can figure out what is going on, perhaps the county can help you find one who will._

In response to this post, we have had very few symptoms to work with. All the cattle look a little frazzled, but that is typical for winter here. The cow and bull that are doing poorly right now are very skinny. These are the first two that have lost any body condition before death, with the exception of the calf we sent to the lab. ALL the others appeared fine before death. And were acting normally before death. I spend a lot of time in the cattle yard. I make it a point to notice who is at the water tank, and who hasn't been. I make it a point to see every animal eating every day. If I haven't seen someone at the feeder and its getting on the afternoon, I get them to the feeder. Yes, beef cattle, generally are not handleable, however, I can touch every single animal, and I look at every animal several times a day, and notice condition of every animal every day. If someone doesn't feel well, I notice their difference in behavior. 

As far as the 2 vets go, only ONE is familiar with this farm, and he simply said "they need more groceries". What does that mean? They are getting all they can eat, and the calving cows have nice, green, stored inside second cutting alfalfa/grass hay. 

The second vet has never been here, and all he said (well, indicated) that he was horrified that I didn't have grain supplementation designed by a nutritionist to feed my grass-fed cattle, and that beef cattle need 'a lot more' than good hay, mineral, oats, and water. He obviously frowns on the practice of grass-fed, and he did not elaborate on that statement.

And, I don't see how 11 weeks is a drawn out situation. The vet has been here half a dozen times, I've spent hours on the phone with them, and we've sent a carcass to the lab. This has all happened very fast and it's been very overwhelming. 

I will state again. We have been raising and selling grass-fed beef for 
15 YEARS, and have never had a problem. This is all NEW and devastating.
So, suddenly, when we have a bad 1/4 year, and have spent every waking winter moment trying to save our cattle and figure out what the problem is we have no business owning cattle? 

Kind of makes me want to say, 'your well behaved 15-year old suddenly is caught doing drugs, his grades tank, and he robs a store and ends up in juve., all in the span of 3 months. Maybe you have no business owning children?'

When you put it into perspective, sounds kind of ridiculous doesn't it?


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

lonelyfarmgirl

Post #27 puts things in better perspective for me. I have seen such an occurrence! The situation I observed was during a major drought and the animals were being fed low quality feed, all that was available. These animals died on a full gut. The cause was that the feed did not have adequate minerals and the farmer was not feeding a mineral supplement. The digestive system just shutdown. What appeared to be a normal cow would just lay down as per normal and seem alert. Within 10 hours they died. Loose quality mineral supplement available free choice and a couple of protein tubs should correct your problem IMO. Good luck, you need and deserve some!


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> This cow is getting prime hay, some oats on the side, free choice loose mineral, and fresh water all the time. What exactly more does a grass-fed beef animal need?


Nothing, really. 
And if your vet doesn't realize that, he needs to spend a little time with range cattle. This time of year, most western cattle are getting winter-dead range, regular hay, free choice mineral/salt and water. 
Some get protein supplements as a cake or block, and some don't...
But otherwise, it's just like what you've described. 

I can't believe your vet isn't concerned about this, really! 
"It's feed issues" is a pat answer that really means "I have no clue and no interest in finding one."

Have you tracked down a new vet yet?


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

ErinP 

You are aware that many mineral supplements sold do not meet the requirements? Minerals often need to be location specific. Toxicities and deficiencies are very dependent on soil composition.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

Amanda, have you checked out midwest bio-ag? http://www.midwesternbioag.com/company/leadership.html

I really like them - and they will come and test your soils, your hay, everything - and make recommendations on how to adjust to get minerally-balanced feed for your animals. They work with a lot of organic and grass-fed farmers in the wisconsin/minnesota/illinois area. Tim Williams is the head sales guy and our rep - lmk if you want his phone number and I'll send it on over. While I might only have a few animals I've always tested my hay and such through them and then adjust minerals based on their recommendations and test results. I like t hem.


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

_"NOW, because of the excessive flooding we had over the summer, and the fact that we had to buy in hay, some of the hay we have had for feeding over winter has not been that great. There was some that was particularly bad, and some that had a bit of mold in it. 

I do realize that part of the problem is that some hay was poor, there for having low nutritional value. However, ........."_

I still think this is your problem. You have been in cattle for 15 years but you are feeding hay from a different source this year. I really think they are getting something toxic in the hay, be it mold or something else. This could also lead the vet to think it is a "groceries" problem.


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## cowkeeper (Feb 17, 2007)

Have you had your water checked? In particular, for sulphites, cattle can be seriously affected. Did they have any diarrhoea? Here is a link:

http://www.agriculture.gov.sk.ca/Livestock_Water_Quality

A picture of you remaining cattle would be helpful.ck


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Where were the animals that died in the pecking order within the herd? It sounds like a nutritional problem to me. It could be mineral or protein deficiencies. 

Lepto can do some really weird things to a cowherd besides just causing abortions and slow breeding.


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## susieM (Apr 23, 2006)

Maybe it wasn't sweet potatoes, after all.....how far away are you from those 200 head that died and are there any points in common with you and them?


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

agmantoo said:


> ErinP
> 
> You are aware that many mineral supplements sold do not meet the requirements? Minerals often need to be location specific. Toxicities and deficiencies are very dependent on soil composition.


I'm well aware of that. 
However, after 15 years in beef production, I have to think lonelyfarmgirl is aware of this also... :shrug:


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

You might want to post a question on this site.

http://cattletoday.info/index.html


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

LFG, 
Have you gotten anything posted yet?

Like someone else mentioned, if we called our vet clinic with this problem, both of them would be working on this until they had an answer. And if THEY couldn't figure it out, they'd send off samples of anything they could think of to someone who could.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

I just read on the Merck site that a selenium deficiency can cause heart failure.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

We had the new vet out this morning. I wish I would have found this guy a year ago. It took him 5 minutes to come up with a diagnosis. He looked at the down cow, and said all her various issues were consistent with a condition called PEM, protein energy management. Which is a feed issue. He said this is a condition most commonly seen in late term pregnancy dairy or feedlot cattle.
It is where the feed has no nutrients in it, and as someone just mentioned, they eat themselves to death, because they aren't getting the proper nutrients, most importantly protein energy. 

He said this is a serious problem being seen in this area and is widespread this year. The cause is the mass flooding we had. He said because the pastures were all flooded out that when the hay finally started growing, it grew so fast, its all fiber and no protein.

He looked at our hay and said the better stuff looked great and the poorer hay, although obviously lesser quality, didn't look all that bad to him, in spite of some mold here and there.

He said, if someone had not told us, how could we expect to know our hay wasn't any good looking like it did, unless we had our hay tested yearly, and we don't, and why would we if we have never had an issue like this?
He was very sympathetic and concerned for the cows, and 
he was disgusted that the other vet didn't see this right away.

So, we are sending 2 samples to the mill in the morning for testing and should have the results back monday. We also ordered 700 pounds of oats and barley. The vet said feed them several times a day to help get their energy up so we don't lose anymore. He said once they were back where they should be, cease the grain.
DH also went to the farm store and picked up 2 high energy lick tubs and half a dozen 37% protein range blocks.
At least half the herd had been at the tubs in the first half hour. Others didn't care.

And we always have loose mineral out for them. We use Redmond, but DH bought a couple different kinds of mineral blocks as well to cover our bases.

We are several hours from where the guy that lost the 200 is.
Pecking order was not consistent with the deaths. It was totally random.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Well, hopefully this is your answer and the end of this problem!


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

what about protein? Oats and barley will give them energy but they still need a high protein feed to utilize the roughage in the hay.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

It was me



myersfarm said:


> i have heard of cows straving to death ,,..with there head in a hay ring full of hay......that is what it sounds to me...just because the guts are full does not mean they are getting what they need...i would give probis to everything and give them some kind of guick protien you like


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Allen, she said they've gotten protein blocks as well as lick tubs...



lonelyfarmgirl said:


> We had the new vet out this morning. I wish I would have found this guy a year ago. It took him 5 minutes to come up with a diagnosis.


Thank heaven! 
I hope he's right.


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## quailkeeper (Aug 18, 2004)

Hopefully you have found your problem, but if not here is something to consider. Where did your hay come from? Our local newspapers (here in Arkansas) had a big article over the summer about Jonson or Johnson grass toxicity. A lot of farmers plant this grass because it grows quickly and very tall in the spring. If they are unable to cut their hay (weather or other reasons) in the spring, during the heat of the summer, the grass will actually create an extremely deadly poison. Someone may have trucked their hay off, because this happened. Just a little bit mixed in the hay, can kill your cattle, maybe like a slow poison. The article sited a case where a group of cattle all died after being put on a field that had this grass growing in it. I agree with the others who have mentioned having your hay tested (both kinds). I know our local county extension office does this for a very small fee, like $10-20. It might not be a bad idea to have it tested anyway. Hope your new vet has figured it out!


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

I just saw this thread, and am so glad to see that you have found a veterinarian who actually cares about their patients and customers! How absolutely frustrating and scary to lose so many animals in such a short time.

The only other thing that came to mind is that perhaps their is something toxic that they've been exposed to. Though since nothing at all is growing on your place, that seems less likely. 

A neighbor of mine had a couple of seemingly healthy cows keel over dead like that last spring, and it turned out to be a toxic weed growing in the pasture that had been there for as long as anyone could remember that the cattle just decided to start eating.

Here's a link to info about the toxic weed they found:

http://www.caf.wvu.edu/~forage/library/poisonous/page12.htm


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

ErinP said:


> Allen, she said they've gotten protein blocks as well as lick tubs...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I missed that. But some of the protein blocks are like fruit cake, just end up being door stops.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

quailkeeper said:


> Hopefully you have found your problem, but if not here is something to consider. Where did your hay come from? Our local newspapers (here in Arkansas) had a big article over the summer about Jonson or Johnson grass toxicity. A lot of farmers plant this grass because it grows quickly and very tall in the spring. If they are unable to cut their hay (weather or other reasons) in the spring, during the heat of the summer, the grass will actually create an extremely deadly poison. Someone may have trucked their hay off, because this happened. Just a little bit mixed in the hay, can kill your cattle, maybe like a slow poison. The article sited a case where a group of cattle all died after being put on a field that had this grass growing in it. I agree with the others who have mentioned having your hay tested (both kinds). I know our local county extension office does this for a very small fee, like $10-20. It might not be a bad idea to have it tested anyway. Hope your new vet has figured it out!


Johnson grass will make prusic acid in the summer when it is dry. Cattle that have been on it contiually aren't affected but cattle put on it that haven't been on it can die. Once it is cut for hay the acid will breakdown and evaperate and is no longer a problem.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

Agree with Allen I feed johnson grass that i buy from a friend when I need the extra hay


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

the hay we bought came from several farmer-neighbors in the immediate vicinity. It was primarily alfalfa/grass, and some marsh grass mixed in.

They are eating the lick tubs pretty steady right now, but seemed to have turned their noses up at the 37% protein blocks. We put those right in the round bale feeders on top of the hay. We have a fourth lick tub of 32% coming on the mill truck tomorrow so there is room for more to lick at once. Actually, they are biting at it.
When DH went to the farm store this morning, they only had 3 in stock and he bought all three.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks for letting us know! Hopefully you have it all figured out now and can maintain the rest of your herd. 

In hindsight, it seems like the lesson to be learned is that testing the nutrient content of hay is money well spent. We never tested ours before, either. We get it from the same guy every year, so kind of assumed it was the "same hay". They did great on it last year, so.... But this has turned on the light bulb for me that the weather conditions it was grown under can change everything.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I never knew until this all happened that there was even such a service of hay testing. I guess its one of those times when you smack yourself and say duh!

We will be testing every year from now on, and regardless, we will probably have the protein lick tubs available for them every winter.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

*They are eating the lick tubs pretty steady right now, but seemed to have turned their noses up at the 37% protein blocks.*

The cattle will start eating the protein cubes soon. If you can locate protein cake it will suffice just fine later and should be cheaper.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> As far as the 2 vets go, only ONE is familiar with this farm, and he simply said "they need more groceries". What does that mean? They are getting all they can eat, and the calving cows have nice, green, stored inside second cutting alfalfa/grass hay.
> 
> The second vet has never been here, and all he said (well, indicated) that he was horrified that I didn't have grain supplementation designed by a nutritionist to feed my grass-fed cattle, and that beef cattle need 'a lot more' than good hay, mineral, oats, and water. He obviously frowns on the practice of grass-fed, and he did not elaborate on that statement.





> He said, if someone had not told us, how could we expect to know our hay wasn't any good looking like it did, unless we had our hay tested yearly, and we don't, and why would we if we have never had an issue like this?
> He was very sympathetic and concerned for the cows, and
> he was disgusted that the other vet didn't see this right away.


In all fairness to the veterinarians, based on your earlier post, it appears the other two vets DID correctly diagnose the problem, although it seems you chose not to listen to them or take their advice. :shrug:

I'm glad the third vet made some headway, and hope your remaining cattle recover.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Doesn't it seem weird for alfalfa grass mix hay that isn't just a pile of sticks or mold, to be lacking in protein enough for cattle to die though? I mean seriously! 

Redmond salt is a great product, but it isn't exactly a mineral supplement. If you are really lacking in minerals or have imbalances (like need copper or selenium) it won't fill it. It will more or less supplement those minerals. Redmond does have some mineral mixes and maybe that is what you're feeding. These are redmond salt with minerals added. I use their Range mix. Their minerals have no added iron which is great.

Willow girl, if a vet told me my cattle were "lacking groceries" when I had hay sitting in front of them 24/7 and they showed good condition, it wouldn't mean anything to me either. Perhaps further inquiry on my part would get something that made sense to me though. 

Now if he said, your hay is likely lacking in sufficient protein because of conditions this growing season, as the last vet apparently did, that is different. But lacking groceries I take to mean no grist for the mill at all, not just the wrong kind.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

lonelyfarmgirl

My cattle are grass fed 365 days per year. They have never had any grain other than forage seeds as they graze and no protein tubs or cake. I do have mineral supplement based on my location and forage. Once you get everything back to normal you should be fine. Do you watch their body condition score? If not, you need to and make certain they stay above BCS5. I may have a heifer that calved in the Fall that will drop during winter to BCS 4.5


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Agman, based on other posts, you have a herd of cattle that have been selected and the herd built around your grass management over a period of years. LFG sounded like they have a hodge podge herd, she mentioned Highland, Longhorn and dairy breeds. Not apples to apples with your herd and especially climate. But still a good rule of thumb to keep the BCS at a 5 or better.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

willow_girl said:


> In all fairness to the veterinarians, based on your earlier post, it appears the other two vets DID correctly diagnose the problem, although it seems you chose not to listen to them or take their advice. :shrug:
> 
> I'm glad the third vet made some headway, and hope your remaining cattle recover.


+1

I saw it the same way.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Ronney said:


> I know that if I had lost that many cattle in such a short time my vets would be turning themselves inside out to find the problem - and if it was starvation they would also tell me, and *advise how to deal with it*


Willow girl, from my reading of LFG's posts, nobody actually made a proper diagnoses until the third vet, and nobody gave advice on how to deal with it.

Agman, you and I are in the lucky position of not having to deal with inclement weather conditions - LFG did say that she had something like a foot of snow over her pasture. I can't even imagine trying to farm under those conditions! MO_cows, I also milk/run a hotch-potch of cattle but because 6 frosts in a winter in my area is considered a drama, they do well because even with slow grass growth, the idea is to get them into prime condition on autumn growth and then use hay and slow growth grass as a maintenance feed over the winter. Your right, no long periods of snow and minus temperatures makes for a different - and easier - farming.

LFG, am well pleased that you have got to the root of the problem and no doubt it has been a steep, sad and expensive learning curve for you. This new vet seems to have struck the right chord for you, given you a diagnoses and gone on to give good advice on how to fix it. This is what I expect from a vet. Can I just add that if you still have any money in the cheque account that you invest in a drum of molassas. This can be watered down with warm water and dribbled over their hay which will ensure that they eat every last scrap of it, or given in a molassas lick. A lick is a big round ball about the size of a basketball that fits inside a container. The container is filled with molassas and warm water and the cows lick the ball. Also, are you able to buy PKE in the States. Another good, and reasonably cheap, source of protein and energy.

While I'm sure that part of you is feeling really gutted, the other part is feeling hugely relieved. It can only get better.

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

> Willow girl, from my reading of LFG's posts, nobody actually made a proper diagnoses until the third vet, and nobody gave advice on how to deal with it.


Ummm Hello? Are we reading the same posts here?

By the OP's own admission, the second vet told her that her ration was lacking and tried to steer her to a nutritionist! Instead of listening, she argued the merits of a grass-based program with him. What's a vet to do if a client argues that their way is the best despite their cows dropping dead?

I feel bad for LFG's loss, but I don't think it was proper to insult those veterinarians.

OK, I think I've said my piece now.


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

Well I will make this short. First off when sourcing hay from a couple of farmers. The chance of feeding all poor hay is slim to none. Many have to remeber here in Wisconsin many fertilizer thier hay feilds for better yeilds. This in turn dose help produce better quiality feed. 
Also did any of these cattle look like they had hay guts? I mean thin and boney with big bellys? When was the last time they was debugged and wormed?

Now here is the part many will find hard to beleive. The reason teh first 2 vets said feed and the third said it is. When a vet does not know what is wrong they give the farmer a answer that in all likely hood will cause the farmer to chase all over the place trying to come up with more answers. I am not being a smartash here. But it true. Been around them and worked with them long enough to know how things work. Another thing is a vet will never ever admit they are wrong.


NOW !!!! Keep a eye on them cattle. They can get protein posioning from eating them tubs!!!
Well off to chores.
Bob


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

I would like to see some photos of the remaining cattle as they look right now. Personally, feed was my first thought too. 

I know in our area there is a lot of talk that the feed in general is not as good quality as normal. This is because of all the rain, the plant didn't take up as much nutrition as it would with less rain....

The feed tests she sent for should tell the story.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

double post


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> Another thing is a vet will never ever admit they are wrong.


Mine does. :shrug:
In fact, he'll even call when he's said something wrong. "You remember last spring when we were talking about that abscess and I thought....? Yeah, well turns out it was actually...."
Both of my vets are also REALLY good about telling you when they simply haven't a clue. 
One is in his late 50s and the other in his early 50s. The whole area worries about the day they retire. 


I had asked DH about this question earlier in the week, so when you found your answer, I told him yesterday.
He says when he was a kid, they'd had a neighbor who'd had basically the same thing happen. 
He was feeding a handful of yearlings over the winter and almost all of them died. Perfectly healthy looking and died with full bellies.
However, unlike his cattle, who got cake because they were fed prairie hay, the yearlings were getting nice alfalfa hay. He didn't supplement them because it was _alfalfa_, afterall...


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## DWH Farm (Sep 1, 2010)

I think that one of the most important things as well as one of the most overlooked with livestock is nutrition. It is cheap and in some cases free (check with your extension office) to have your soil, water and hay tested. We test our hay every year (more often if we have to buy) and our soil and water every 2-3 years. Then you KNOW what minerals and supplements are lacking.. This is even more important when raising animals mainly on grass and forage. Also, invest in a GOOD loose mineral. I really like the cargill "right now" line. They have different mixes based on the time of year and type of forage. Cattle can starve to death with full bellies, but it sounds like you have learned this the hard way and I am sorry about that..


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

I hope you have discovered the problem.Best wishes for a good year from now on, sounds like you have already had your share of trouble.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Ronney

Your statement

*Willow girl, from my reading of LFG's posts, nobody actually made a proper diagnoses until the third vet, and nobody gave advice on how to deal with it.*

Please read post #28


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Ummm Hello? Are we reading the same posts here?

By the OP's own admission, the second vet told her that her ration was lacking and tried to steer her to a nutritionist! Instead of listening, she argued the merits of a grass-based program with him. What's a vet to do if a client argues that their way is the best despite their cows dropping dead?

I feel bad for LFG's loss, but I don't think it was proper to insult those veterinarians.

OK, I think I've said my piece now.
__________________


The second vet knew nothing about the situation! He had never been here, and wasn't handling the case. All he did was exhibit disgust that I don't have a nutritionist regulating a grain ration for grass-fed cattle. I said this already. And this vet, on numerous other occasions has made up stupid stuff to cover up the fact that he didn't have an answer. That would be a typical behavior of his.
Any insult he got from me was a long time coming. Just because I am not a vet doesn't mean I am an idiot, and he has treated me like one for a long time.

The whole reason for finally posting this story here is because I am fed up with their stupidity, lack of care, and lack of real answers. 
Had he bothered to do a decent job, we may not have lost so many animals. I pay him to solve my animal health issues, not to say stupid things like "they get hay all the time? They need more groceries, and good hay and minerals for grass-fed cattle isn't enough."


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

lonelyfarmgirl

I believe that your problem was identified by me in post #28 after reading your description of the problem in post #27. I did not post until then because I had trouble following the earlier information. I am not looking for credit for anything as I was only trying to assist. In the same attitude I want to also share something else. You state you are using Redmonds minerals. I know that many folks swear by the product. I know that some folks do not bother to read the labels either and if they do read them they do not go to the effort to understand what was read. Obviously I do not know which Redmonds product you are using. However, I think it would behoove you to verify the selenium requirements for beef cattle in PPM for selenium and compare what is being offered in some of the mineral supplements they sell.


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## bigbluegrass (Jan 11, 2011)

What are Strongolids? I did a google search and came up with nothing. You said the UW test came back with strongolids, but not excessive. Is it a parasite of some sort?


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## wottahuzzee (Jul 7, 2006)

bigbluegrass said:


> What are Strongolids? I did a google search and came up with nothing. You said the UW test came back with strongolids, but not excessive. Is it a parasite of some sort?


Strongyloides
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/22405.htm


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## bigbluegrass (Jan 11, 2011)

Thanks!


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

we have a mineral block in there also that is the other stuff redmond does not provide. Then they can choose, as the redmond is primarily salt.


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## Carol K (May 10, 2002)

Your cattle have had a rough few months and I feel for you and them trying to get to the bottom of it.
I looked at your web site and I see that through the blizzard you just had, that most of your cattle are outside, not unusual for sure, but it looked like they didn't have much protection, if any from wind etc. I know your Highlands could probably cope better with the winter but do you think your longhorns suffer from not having a place to get out of the weather, especially with the blizzard and extreme cold you had there? Along with the low quality of feed maybe this contirbuted to them losing so much condition?
My Dexters spend most of the time out, but I know they appreciate being able to get out of the biting wind when it's 30 below with the windchill.
I wish you well and hope that you can get your herd back on track,

Carol K


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I understand your concern. We have a couple 3 sided buildings, and one has extended wing walls made of those giant concrete blocks. they use those for wind blocks, and one of the 3 sided huts is opened for calving and nursing cows and has a creep gate in the back for the babies to go into, which they do. Otherwise there is no shelter. The longhorns, we bought from a guy that lives 2 hours north of here. He has wide open fields and they stay outside all winter just like here, and he has nothing for wind blocks at all. All he has is longhorns and they do fine there, we figured, why wouldn't they here?

Honestly, they surprise me. They are skinny and bony, but that's genetics. They came that way mid-summer and they were very healthy. Our bull came from somewhere else, and physically looks totally different, but he also is very bony, in general.
They really haven't lost much in the way of condition, its the hereford crosses that have suffered the most. A longhorn cow was one of the ones that dropped dead without warning, and without losing condition, and the longhorn bull is one of the three that suddenly got skinny on us. We have 3 longhorn cows left, and the bull.

Actually, from a meat producer stand point, they aren't a good choice. We will probably get rid of them in the fall, and replace them with cows that carry heavier muscle mass.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Judging by the picture of the cattle in your Feb. 5 blog entry you will be awhile getting your cattle back in shape. Hopefully you have a solid plan in place for taking care of them and getting weight on them. I wish you the best of luck.


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## quailkeeper (Aug 18, 2004)

Just one more note on Johnson grass poisoning. Johnson grass, due to fertilization and drought (or damaged or frosted on), will develop cyanide and nitrate toxins. When cut for hay the cyanide MOSTLY evaporates, but the nitrate toxins DO NOT evaporate. Hay should be tested for toxins. Symptoms can be sudden death in cattle. "Cyanide poisoning is very acute and affected animals exhibit difficult breathing, anxious expression, staggering and usually become recumbent, have convulsions and die. Animals may show signs within 15-30 minutes after consuming plants containing cyanide and may die very quickly. The blood is usually bright red.

In nitrate poisoning, the symptoms are similar except the blood is characteristically chocolate-brown."

Here is a quick link, but theres lots of info out there: http://www.caf.wvu.edu/~forage/library/poisonous/page7.htm
And this is just ONE of the many poisonous plants out there we have to watch for.


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## thejerseylilly (Feb 17, 2011)

Hello, New to the forum, but not new to cattle. 

You said that they have access to a mineral block. What type. In our experience most mineral blocks are trace minerals, and don't really have enough mineral in them to be called a mineral block. They are mostly just salt. 
A good loose mineral fed free choice. One that's been developed for your particular area and what is deficient there is best. You'll find after feeding a good loose mineral..you'll have overall better herd health, as well as a little more weight on those calves come weaning time than you normally do without the loose mineral. 
Vigertone is an excellant mineral if it's available in your area. If not...you can contact them, and they most likely can get it to you, or steer you in the right direction to a dealer. 

So sorry you've had to go through this ordeal and lost so many head. 
I agree with the having the hay tested. Every cutting, no matter where it comes from. If you raise it yourself...or if you buy it. Get it tested so you'll know what you've got to add to that ration to keep them up to par. We supplement with a liquid protein syrup lick instead of the tubs. Just because it's more convenient for our operation.


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## ufo_chris (Apr 30, 2010)

LFG,I'm so sorry for your losses. How terrible.
This has made want to get my hay tested even though I got it from 3 different people this winter.
Also I have Highlands and a couple of Highland crosses.
You said you didn't loose any of yours (being known to be hardier)
So they are really that much hardier,that is good to know! And kind of amazing!
Wishing you and your cattle all the best from now on,
Chris


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

Allen W said:


> Judging by the picture of the cattle in your Feb. 5 blog entry you will be awhile getting your cattle back in shape. Hopefully you have a solid plan in place for taking care of them and getting weight on them. I wish you the best of luck.


I agree with Allen, those cows are in poor, poor condition in that photo. 

You might want to check these links out for future reference. Beef cows should be in a score of 5-6 range.

http://www.thecattlesite.com/articles/674/body-condition-scoring-beef-cows

http://www.wikihow.com/Judge-Body-Condition-Scores-in-Cattle

http://www.cowbcs.info/photogallery.html


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## thejerseylilly (Feb 17, 2011)

I have a question....please don't take this the wrong way. I have read the whole thread...and you said you were having hay issues. 

The hay in the background of the picture on your blog..Feb 5th...is that not yours? Neighbors hay? If it is yours...in weather like that ours would have access to hay all the time. (we live in south east texas and don't have winters that brutal, and we keep hay out pretty much all the time through the winter months.) That along with protein tubs or liquid feed and loose mineral....

Gosh in weather like that they need to be in really good shape goin into winter...as well as having high quality feed in front of them at all times, just to survive. They are burnin energy they don't have to burn in weather like that. 

I sure hope you get this resolved quickly so that you don't have any further losses.


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## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

I am very sorry for your losses. They do look like they are going to require a lot to get back into condition, I would guess it will be more then just a few protein blocks that will be needed, especially considering your weather, doing more research and talking with more people about getting proper nutrition and minerals would be where I would put all my energy (and money). Unless I read something wrong, all three vets said the thing, they were in poor condition and their nutritional needs were not being met. There is a lot of help both at the Universities and at the Extension offices.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Yes, the hay in the background is ours. That particular hay is set up for use a couple weeks from now when the ground thaw begins. Here, the frost goes so deep, that when the ground begins to thaw, we can't get the loader into the feed lot, so we're bale grazing this year to try and solve that problem. When the ground is hard, moving bales with the loader is no problem.
The have access to hay all the time. We never let them run out. They have feeders that are out of the photo.

So tell me this. Why do you think the cows in that photo are very very poor?
Not being jerkish, I just want to know if I am missing something.
In comparing them to a BCS example chart, I would call the 2 steers in the front 4's. I realize thats not ideal, but they always look a bit ragged in the winter, even when the feed is very good. The highlander on the right I would call a 5. There is a cow in the rear of the photo, behind the steers that looks poor, maybe a 2 or 3, but she is a holstein cross. Even in high summer she looks bony. Its the same with the longhorns. Even in high summer they have protruding hip bones and are very thin, like a dairy cow.

We are feeding them oats and barley, a couple pounds per head per day, plus the lick tubs, and several types of mineral blocks free choice, and they all got apples today, as we came into a whole pallet box of them.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

I would like to see better photos of your cattle, than the couple on your blog. 

Personally, from the pictures I would call those steers 3-3.5. And if your steers are that rough, I really wonder about the cow herd. The steers after all do not require that much for maintenance. The cows on the other hand are either raising a calf or are pregnant!


If you could post several photos of your herd, preferably, some single animal side shots would be best. 

Our herd is wintered pretty much as yours. Cows get alfalfa hay and usually some sort of green feed, triticale this year. They get some grain from that. We do pail grain to any calves we get. More to the ones we are finishing, less to the replacement heifers. They all get some sort of mineral, the cows are on Promolas.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I will see if I can take some tomorrow. Its very windy today and the photos would be deceiving due to blowing hair!

2 of the 3 protein tubs we put out are nearly gone. We got a different one, a heifer tub. It has more molasses in it, and they don't like it.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

lonelyfarmgirl

Look at the two calves in the front of the picture. Both calves are sunk in behind the shoulders, the black baldy you can looke down his back and see his spine, especially toward his back end where the ice has the hair laid down. I have to agree with randiliana that they appear to be 3.0 to 3.5 BCS.


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## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

Lfg..


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

There are a bunch of Hooks and Pins and Vertebrae showing in those cattle! It looks like winter has been hard on them. I hope they recover for you.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

morningstar said:


> LFG, if you were interested, give either the closest university or community college (providing they have ag programs) and ask to speak to the ag professors. My daughter is pre-vet student and she has classes in both livestock judging (they have competition teams) and animal production, every week they visit different farms and their assignments are to judge the animals. If you have programs like this locally (and didn't mind a class of students coming), I'm sure something could be arranged so you could get a really good idea of what score your animals would get. Just a thought. I know how hard this winter has been back east, hope you all get a little break in the weather.


Not good advice. The livestock juding teams workout on various farms and ranches to get experience for competitions. They don't go as a favor to evaluate your herd. 

Now getting a quality nutritionist or cattlemen to visit your farm for their opinion would be good for the OP.

Jim


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## copperhead46 (Jan 25, 2008)

Just my 2 cents worth, since you've been in this business all these years, the only difference I can see is the flooding. could it have dropped or somehow caused a bacteria or something else awfull in the soil? It's horrible that you've lost so many animals, and I'm so sorry for that. I sure hope you find the problem and don't have to get out of the business. I understand that you are doing all you can, and I applaude you for everything you've done to try and find the cause. That people would try to blame you is narrow minded and blame throwing, if anyone reads your post they can see that you trying everything possible. I can't imagine losing that many animals, it would be devistating. I hope you find the cause and soon.
P.J.


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## Lizza (Nov 30, 2005)

Lazy J said:


> Not good advice. The livestock juding teams workout on various farms and ranches to get experience for competitions. They don't go as a favor to evaluate your herd.
> 
> Now getting a quality nutritionist or cattlemen to visit your farm for their opinion would be good for the OP.
> 
> Jim


Well, probably not good advice then.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

copperhead46 said:


> Just my 2 cents worth, since you've been in this business all these years, the only difference I can see is the flooding. could it have dropped or somehow caused a bacteria or something else awfull in the soil? It's horrible that you've lost so many animals, and I'm so sorry for that. I sure hope you find the problem and don't have to get out of the business. I understand that you are doing all you can, and I applaude you for everything you've done to try and find the cause. That people would try to blame you is narrow minded and blame throwing, if anyone reads your post they can see that your trying everything possible. I can't imagine losing that many animals, it would be devistating. I hope you find the cause and soon.
> P.J.


This was our original suspicion. Who knows what those flood waters brought in? Especially since so many farmers and so many governments seem to think round-up and atrazine and who knows what else is perfectly healthy for us and the soil. :grump:
And since the hay was so weird, and apparently not just ours, who knows what the plants soaked up and grew into their cells? 

And unfortunately, a break in the weather doesn't look probable. We have had weather in the high 30's all week, which feels like a heat wave, but the wind is nasty tonight, and its supposed to start snowing sunday. I have no idea what to projected amount is. Sigh...


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## Patt (May 18, 2003)

I spent some time looking at your blog and some of your previous threads here to get an idea of what your farm is like before wading in with an opinion. I am going to have to say I am seeing some cause for concern. In the past 4 months you have had a lot of animals die. 

pigs:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=377598

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=370037

you lost quite a few in the blizzard:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=376323

you have some fertility issues with your rabbits:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=378858

Add that to all of the cows that recently died and I think maybe it is time to take a step back and really look over your operation. Because you have a real problem there. It sounds like you are overwhelmed with work and you have had trouble keeping farm hands and I am sure that is adding to the pressure. Sometimes it is a good idea to cut back on animals for awhile and get everything back to a manageable scale and then rebuild your stock slowly.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

It is unfortunate that we have had a bad year, but those posts you reference have nothing to do with each other. The still born pigs were a direct cause of the sickness the feeders brought in. The post about the blizzard was the first snow of the year, and weather you have 2 enclosures, or 20 enclosures, anything living outside of an enclosed barn is at risk of getting buried in snow country.

When you have so many living things, whether cattle, school children or plants, something is always sick, or happening, or breaking, or getting lost, thats life. And if you read further, you will know that the reason we had trouble with the farm hands was because the first molested my daughter and the second lied about his experiences. Those are the only 2 we had ever had. How many cashiers does McDonalds go through before they find a decent one?

Just because your beans fail, and you broke a case of canning jars and your tomatoes got too ripe on the vine, does that mean you should buy more food instead of grow it?

There is a lot going on here, but that is what a busy life is all about.

Forgot to add, the reason I was having a rabbit fertility issue was because of the cold. They are in their own building, take an hour a day to care for and have nothing to do with the cattle or their feed issue.


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## Patt (May 18, 2003)

I tend to disagree that these things just happen. And again please do not take this as a personal knock because it is not meant as one. We have been farming for 10 years now with a variety of different animals. At our largest we leased land and had a mixed herd of Dexters and Highlands along with a large market garden, hogs, rabbits, various poultry etc. And we over shot what we could keep up with. It happens. I am sure most people here have been there and done that.

The 2 most telling facts in your posts above are that even with 3 days advance warning you could not get all of your animals under shelter (nor do you appear to have adequate shelter for all of your animals) and that so many cows died without you seeing any signs at all on most of them. The vast majority of the time when an animal dies on our farms it is due to mismanagement of some sort on the farmers part. And it is easy to miss things when you get overwhelmed and you start making mistakes that lead to deaths. 

I understand that you see no connection here but I see a definite one and that is why I am asking you for the sake of your farm and your animals to step back and look at the bigger picture. It is a common misconception that the farm life consists of running from crisis to crisis and putting out fires. It is not once you get good fences up and adequate shelter and good feeding programs and a good management system. And you have the right mix and amount of animals to suit your farm and your time and abilities.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I have been reading this thread and noticed the same things Patt is referring to. I grew up in WI with lots of friends and family milking cows. We have had beef cattle as well for years as well. You have lost a lot of animals in a very short amount of time. 

I have looked at your pictures and your cows do not look in very good condition, even in the summer. If you are going to bred for winter caving, piglets, or any other winter babies, you need to be able to put your animals in in bad weather. You have lost enough animals to pay for a barn. IMO you ask for help, but don't listen to the answers. When you have so many animals you don't know how old they are until they die something is wrong on the management end. Any good dairyman or cattleman knows his animals very well and keeps good records. That goes for any other type of profitable animal operation. You say you have been doing this for 15 years, yet you don't seem to find a barn necessary. Winter in WI is not new news. There are plenty of good cattle resourses available in WI, why don't you use them?


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

Let me just say in defense of LFG, that our beef herd does not get brought inside because of snow storms and bad weather. They can get cover in the timber and along the draws and creek. Ranchers in Montana and Wyoming do not get their beef cattle in during the winter unless they are calving. So to say that people should get their cattle in barns when it snows heavily is unrealistic.


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

linn said:


> Let me just say in defense of LFG, that our beef herd does not get brought inside because of snow storms and bad weather. They can get cover in the timber and along the draws and creek. Ranchers in Montana and Wyoming do not get their beef cattle in during the winter unless they are calving. So to say that people should get their cattle in barns when it snows heavily is unrealistic.



Your cattle have feed and wind breaks which is all they need. Her cattle were lacking both, is what most people are saying!


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## cowkeeper (Feb 17, 2007)

I have to agree with linn, having the cattle outside is not the problem. My cattle are outside all winter in a cold climate. They do have plenty of protection from the wind but I do not breed for mid-winter calves and do bring calving cows inside when the weather is wet and cold. The pics of the cows, as a previous poster said, they look thin. If the cows had a decent body score while dying like flies, then perhaps a toxin might be suspected. 
I have found it very hard to buy decent quality round bales and therefore supplement with a small amount but regularly, of a COB feed with molasses added. It gives them a bit of energy/protein/vitamins lacking in the hay. Then they get a 12/12 loose mineral free choice. Supplement according to condition as necessary. It's not rocket science. If LFG's cattle had a decent body score the winter weather by itself would not be killing them off. Sounds like they had just run out of bodily resources and the cold was the straw that broke the camel's back.ck


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

linn said:


> Let me just say in defense of LFG, that our beef herd does not get brought inside because of snow storms and bad weather. They can get cover in the timber and along the draws and creek. Ranchers in Montana and Wyoming do not get their beef cattle in during the winter unless they are calving. So to say that people should get their cattle in barns when it snows heavily is unrealistic.


This is not defense for LFG. Her cows do not have adequate shelter for calving, or to bring them in when they have health problems. Winter in WI is different than WY or MT. It is cold, windy and humid. The big problem is the humidity in the east, south, and s central parts of the state. Animals need more protection in the cold, humid weather in WI than they do in the more arid west. They need more calories. My DD and SIL have beef cattle in NE OR. They calved about 375 cows last spring. They have not lost the number of cows in the last 6 years that LFG has in the last 6 months. Her cows are not getting adequate feed, and when they are stressed, they are suffering and dying.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Where did it say that they were lacking feed? From what I've read they had hay which is all they're fed around here unless they're supplemented with range cubes and/or protein tubs. None of the cows here are brought in, in fact, most of the cows out around me have never seen a barn and many of them are out on wide open places with no shelter and they do calve out in it. Now how many cows these ranchers lose I haven't a clue, but apparently not enough to make them go out of business. I don't know anyone that brings them in. Even the dairies around us don't bring them in. Blizzarding outside and the cows are standing around in the lots outside. Granted, when it gets that cold they need extra nutrition to hold their own against the cold and maintain weight, but I assume if they've been running cattle for 15 years that they know this.


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

Even when we're _calving_ we don't bring cows in. lol Not unless they're having trouble and they're close enough to the barn/shed with a head catch. Otherwise, they calve out in the open. :shrug:

Something else to remember is that LFG _knew_ something was terribly wrong (hence the thread afterall) but _thought_ she had adequate feed. 
I know a lot of lifetime cattlemen who would easily have made the exact same mistake. "Well they have hay a plenty in front of them, just like every other year... Must be an infection of some kind?!?!"
And I've got to admit, if I had a vet who was so uninterested in finding the answer, I wouldn't be particularly interested in any guesses that they happened to throw out, either. Even if they DID happen to be right. 

It was a legitimate mistake. A costly one, too. And no doubt one she'll learn from. But to pile on all of this grand-stand quarterbacking doesn't really seem to be particularly helpful.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

I didn't read that they had no feed either. The nutritional value of the hay was not adequate, but she did not realize that. We had a problem years ago with poor nutrition in our hay. Luckily we found an old-time vet who told us the problem before we lost any cows. As I read it, her cows had access to minerals also. I will say that I don't think mineral blocks are adequate. We now feed loose mineral. Most beef herds and many large dairy herds never see the inside of a barn here (unless the dairy cows go into the milking parlor and right back out), in Northwest Missouri. We have cold, nasty winters with high humidity. Our beef herd gets hay, minerals and water. They don't get grain unless they are in the home pasture. Telling someone with a lot of cattle that they need to be in a barn isn't feasible. Beating someone over the head after they have suffered a loss like she has sustained serves no purpose except to alienate that person. I am sure that all of us have made mistakes or maybe not used the right judgement in some situations. I am not in her shoes, so I can't speak for her actions.


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

The very first picture on the blog shows Highland cows with ribs and hips protruding....This is not a sudden thing that 'just' happened. Sorry to say. Ribs, hips and shoulder blades should not be showing on grass that appears green as the picture.


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

Ok, enough is enough. Lay off LFG. I hate to say it but many of you arm chair farmers really take a chance to get into somebody. LFG is east of me. I am 38 and spent all my life on the farm. You have your good years and your bad. As to the storm we had a few weeks back, we had beef cattle that actually stayed out in the weather even with access to a shed.
As to her problems here I have been waiting to hear what the feed test will show monday. I am with LFG and copperhead all along. With the flood this summer somethign got washed in. The feed idea is really a shot in the dark. As I said before with hay sourced from more then one place. Your chances of cattle starving to death is very slim. From her pictures the only thing I would say is them cows could maybe stand some bug killer. I have seen acouple of times the vets could not explain what happens even though many tests are ran.
So lets all sit back and wait and see what the hay comes upto be and cool it a bit.
Bob


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

Well said, Bob. :thumb:


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Even if the hay comes back poor, unless you're a large cattle rancher or feed lot, most cattle farmers don't get all their hay tested for nutritional content every year so she would have had no way of knowing that something was a miss. I looked at the pics on the blog and some look a tad thin, but not spookily so. Not enough to think they're starving and I tend to agree that first thought would be worms or something. Sometimes animals get sick and die and there are no explanations. It just happens. A lot of things to do with farming are live and learn, you just hope your mistakes don't cost you too much money.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

LFG has some serious problems to find the answers to. It doesn't matter what some one thinks she should have done she is where she is at and has to go from there. She has asked questions and said she would take some more pictures for further discussion. Some good information hopefully will come out of this learning experience that every one capable of learning can learn from.


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## B & B Farms (Jan 12, 2011)

I just hope that LFG's cattle, those that are left, are ready for this next storm! Some are predicting 20" in the Fox Valley with 45 mph winds on Sunday!

Allene


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## Patt (May 18, 2003)

6e said:


> Even if the hay comes back poor, unless you're a large cattle rancher or feed lot, most cattle farmers don't get all their hay tested for nutritional content every year so she would have had no way of knowing that something was a miss. I looked at the pics on the blog and some look a tad thin, but not spookily so. Not enough to think they're starving and I tend to agree that first thought would be worms or something. Sometimes animals get sick and die and there are no explanations. It just happens. A lot of things to do with farming are live and learn, you just hope your mistakes don't cost you too much money.


No they do not. I get so tired of hearing this mantra. On well managed farms animals do not just up and die with no explanation. Once in awhile yes you may have an out of the blue problem. But 99% of the time it is due to mismanagement or an overload of animals not due to some quirk of fate or spate of bad luck. 

And again nobody is attacking her. We are just pointing out looking at all of her posts taken together there appears to be a bigger problem here and would be a good idea for her to step back and look at the bigger picture.


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## B & B Farms (Jan 12, 2011)

My Grandfather, Mother and I have raised Angus and Herefords for over 50 years, 100% grass fed, hay, protein and minerals in the winter and we have lost exactly 9 over 50 years!!

Allene


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## cowkeeper (Feb 17, 2007)

Onthebit said:


> The very first picture on the blog shows Highland cows with ribs and hips protruding....This is not a sudden thing that 'just' happened. Sorry to say. Ribs, hips and shoulder blades should not be showing on grass that appears green as the picture.


I noticed that too, and thought they should have looked a bit better at that time of the year. Were they wormed at all after the grazing season? Were they grazing previously flooded pastures...Liver Fluke?? ck


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## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

''Barn Blind''


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Patt said:


> No they do not. I get so tired of hearing this mantra. On well managed farms animals do not just up and die with no explanation. Once in awhile yes you may have an out of the blue problem. But 99% of the time it is due to mismanagement or an overload of animals not due to some quirk of fate or spate of bad luck.
> 
> And again nobody is attacking her. We are just pointing out looking at all of her posts taken together there appears to be a bigger problem here and would be a good idea for her to step back and look at the bigger picture.


I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. There probably IS an explanation for every death, but unless you're going to have an autopsy done on every animal that dies, most of the time you're not going to know, unless you knew you were headed for trouble before it died. And even then, sometimes when they die, there's nothing you could have done to prevent it.....but hopefully that's the exception rather than the rule. 

I would not say that "99% of the time it's due to mismanagement or an overload". Maybe half the time. shrug. But that's my personal experiences of people I know.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

Patt said:


> No they do not. I get so tired of hearing this mantra. On well managed farms animals do not just up and die with no explanation. Once in awhile yes you may have an out of the blue problem. But 99% of the time it is due to mismanagement or an overload of animals not due to some quirk of fate or spate of bad luck.
> 
> And again nobody is attacking her. We are just pointing out looking at all of her posts taken together there appears to be a bigger problem here and would be a good idea for her to step back and look at the bigger picture.


I sure don't see any cattle on your blog page, just one goat, a few chickens and a few pigs. But that kilted guy without the shirt sure looks skinny, I think you had better feed him up. And he needs to be in out of the weather the way he is (or isn't) dressed. :happy0035:


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## Patt (May 18, 2003)

linn said:


> I sure don't see any cattle on your blog page, just one goat, a few chickens and a few pigs. But that kilted guy without the shirt sure looks skinny, I think you had better feed him up. And he needs to be in out of the weather the way he is (or isn't) dressed. :happy0035:


We don't have cattle anymore.  Our boys are all grown and in the military and we have scaled down to what the 2 of us can handle for the rest of our lives. 

Now I have to go look at the blog, my husband writes it so no telling what is on there. He usually wears a shirt with his kilt......


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## Jackie (Jun 20, 2008)

All I gotta say is LGF is taking this criticism a LOT better than I would.


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Patt said:


> Now I have to go look at the blog, my husband writes it so no telling what is on there.


My only experience with cows is the dairy herd my grandparents had which put 3 uncles through Cornell and my father through RPI many years ago--apparently they managed their farm okay--they also had a large Leghorn egg operation--in upstate NY--where it's very cold--they had barns but the cows weren't in them much.

Anyway, I spent some time at "your blog" reading about "your opinions" of how to "get" customers (stupid ones it seems) and other nonsense; if you didn't write it and don't know what it says, why have it in your sig line? Seriously...


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## Patt (May 18, 2003)

katydidagain said:


> My only experience with cows is the dairy herd my grandparents had which put 3 uncles through Cornell and my father through RPI many years ago--apparently they managed their farm okay--they also had a large Leghorn egg operation--in upstate NY--where it's very cold--they had barns but the cows weren't in them much.
> 
> Anyway, I spent some time at "your blog" reading about "your opinions" of how to "get" customers (stupid ones it seems) and other nonsense; if you didn't write it and don't know what it says, why have it in your sig line? Seriously...


It was a joke.....it's supposed to be funny. Strangely enough all of our customers got that! And it is for our farm so it is in my signature line. Attacking me over my husband's comical blog posts really is not helping anyone with their cattle now is it?


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## katydidagain (Jun 11, 2004)

Patt said:


> It was a joke.....it's supposed to be funny. Strangely enough all of our customers got that! And it is for our farm so it is in my signature line. Attacking me over my husband's comical blog posts really is not helping anyone with their cattle now is it?


I didn't attack you; I stated the obvious. You must have some "interesting" customers if they find being called idiots funny; fortunately I am a very boring consumer who can bake her own bread so don't have to rely on your overpriced 24 oz loaves.

LFG's problems are serious; I don't believe they have anything to do with mismanagement. Not really. Part of farming is dealing with unknowns; we aren't all gods, you know. Flooding and droughts or really unusual weather can play havoc with "good management" which is why some years are good and some not so much when you're in that business. She's in a hard place and, IMO, is doing all she can to figure out how to fix it; she posted here asking for help, knowledge and advice. And you essentially told her to give up...nice.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

LFG, I just wanted to post and tell you that I have been thinking about you and your troubles since I first read this thread the other day.
I feel terrible for you. I can't imagine how heartbreaking it is to be in your shoes right now. I know from your posts here, and from looking at your blog, that you are passionate about raising your own food and sharing that good food with your community.

Please don't take all the sideline criticism to heart. Use the advice, but skip over the snarkiness that some folks just can't seem to keep under wraps.

I will be holding you and yours in my thoughts, praying for a good outcome.


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## Patt (May 18, 2003)

katydidagain said:


> I didn't attack you; I stated the obvious. You must have some "interesting" customers if they find being called idiots funny; fortunately I am a very boring consumer who can bake her own bread so don't have to rely on your overpriced 24 oz loaves.
> 
> LFG's problems are serious; I don't believe they have anything to do with mismanagement. Not really. Part of farming is dealing with unknowns; we aren't all gods, you know. Flooding and droughts or really unusual weather can play havoc with "good management" which is why some years are good and some not so much when you're in that business. She's in a hard place and, IMO, is doing all she can to figure out how to fix it; she posted here asking for help, knowledge and advice. And you essentially told her to give up...nice.


Wow! Yes you are snidely bashing my blog, my customers, my bread etc. 

Maybe you could point out to me where exactly I told her to give up? Because I did nothing of the sort! I told her she needed to take a step back and reassess her farm. EVERYBODY should do that periodically. I said that we overshot what could handle and it is understandable. It happens. Farming is hard and busy and sometimes we need somebody on the outside to look in and give us a different perspective. Stop making this personal, it isn't.


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## tinknal (May 21, 2004)

linn said:


> I sure don't see any cattle on your blog page, just one goat, a few chickens and a few pigs. But that kilted guy without the shirt sure looks skinny, I think you had better feed him up. And he needs to be in out of the weather the way he is (or isn't) dressed. :happy0035:


Farming is a lot easier in theory, isn't it?


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

Patt said:


> No they do not. I get so tired of hearing this mantra. On well managed farms animals do not just up and die with no explanation. Once in awhile yes you may have an out of the blue problem. But 99% of the time it is due to mismanagement or an overload of animals not due to some quirk of fate or spate of bad luck.
> 
> And again nobody is attacking her. We are just pointing out looking at all of her posts taken together there appears to be a bigger problem here and would be a good idea for her to step back and look at the bigger picture.


Well, after tests and the vet being here almost every day for close to 2 weeks. We still do not know what killed 8 head of cattle 3 winters ago. It ranged from month olds upto 5-6 yr old cows. The way it spread through teh herd was opposite of water flow through the farm. We figured it was brought in by birds. The cattle devoloped almost a server case of winter desintry that what to the point they bleed to death. But, every test taken came back negative. Posting cattle showed nothing other then the damaged intestines. But, it was something other then desintry. Due to teh fact it was easly treated with sulfa. Simple use of Auroe 700SG crumbles in cattle just showing signs cleared it right up. The use of Albon and sustain III in cattle that were worse cleared them up too. 
Another time a few more yearts back I lost 16 of 17 calves in 2 weeks. Finally we had a test come back positive for cryptosporidia.

I know how LFG feels. You just hate to get out of bed. It hurts just to think postive that everything will be fine when you go out side. 2 weeks ago today I found my old steer down with his head under him. I got him sat up and made him comfortable for a bit. Later we moved him in the shed. He will not carry weight on his front legs to good yet. But stands fine on the back. I use a 4 inch strap for his fron end and hip clamp on the back. So would say just put him down. But, he is strong willed and healthy. Just due to his age he was run down and needed extra easy to eat feed that he was lacking. Its my fault he was in a weak state. Hopefully he will walk out of the shed soon. Some have dogs for pets, mine is my steer. He is going to be 21 this summer and weights about 1200 right now.
Bob


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

First, I am going to respond to Patt. I am so glad to know that you have the most well-managed farm on the planet. Congratulations! Now, back to the real world.
Animals DO drop dead for unknown reasons, unless you pay to autopsy everyone. We don't have money trees. If you have never experienced this, you are doing great! Now, back to the real world, again.

Its really nice to hear that you think our problem is too many animals. If we shipped everything but the cattle, today, it wouldn't change the problem. If we had ONLY owned a herd of cattle and a fru-fru house dog, we still would have ended up with this problem.
Other isolated issues have nothing to do with this. Did you not read before when I said the year before we lost 3 calves, and the year before that, none?

Also, you apparently failed to read that we HAVE NO BARN. These are outside cattle. Most of the time, shelter is not necessary. They do fine without it. They calve in the open as well. I also ALREADY SAID we have two 3 sided shelters with creep gates for the calves, and front gates so we can close someone in if there is a problem. We do close in cows that are very close to giving birth if the weather overnight looks really bad. I also ALREADY SAID that the stone building has wing walls for wind blocks, in addition to the two buildings themselves.

As far as the blizzard goes, the potbellied pigs were buried ENTIRELY. As in they are in a fenced area, with wood shelters, and the ENTIRE area was under snow. More than 300 square feet. They were buried in their houses.

So far you have said absolutely nothing helpful, and I think it's actually funny how everyone else picked up on that. 
But what I picked up on is the fact that you seem to be indicating that I am not telling the truth. Yes, I will admit, especially in farming, people can get overwhelmed and make stupid mistakes, and yes, I will point out that in situations where one looks at an animal 10 times a day, its hard to notice physical changes until they become dramatic and one morning you look at the animal and think, wow you look like crap. It happens, but it's not just me here. I have a husband and we have a farm hand whom we hired right in the middle of this mess, and the old vet had been here twice in the last month or so.

So that means the whole of us are either totally stupid, or I am telling it EXACTLY like it happened. What benefit would I gain from making stuff up? I am after all, putting the reputation of myself and my farm on the line here. 
Try putting yourself in my shoes and see how it feels, OH wait..you couldn't fill 'em if you tried. Sorry.

Now, as far as everything else goes, some one was talking about Wisconsin winters, and how we have no wind blocks, shelter, etc...I already commented on that, but I wanted to point out, that where ever that person lived is not the same as here. The big thing, is we have very little humidity. We are only a few miles east of the lake. The weather we get here is directly affected by the lake and is different than most other parts of the state.

I also wanted to comment on the person who pointed out the two bony highlands on my main blog photo. Those two cows came with a group we bought in September of 2009, from a guy who was dying of cancer. He lived way up north where the pastures are sparse. Those two cows came bony and stayed that way. The red one is dead, as she died this past November of old age and the inability to chew. The other one we still have, and she is also old. Probably over 15 years old, and still has those bony hips. Don't let those two offer representation for overall herd health. The texas longhorns I bought over the summer also have those bony protruding hips. And the TLH bull I bought 2 years ago, from someone else, also has bony, protruding hips. I think thats genetic.

So here is a link to a page I made with some photos I took today for those who have asked. I chose at random simply based on who was standing nicely. All photos are individually labeled for reference. This represents about 1/3 of the herd. In some of the photos, you can see part of the stone wing walls I talked about before.

www.dollyrockfarm.com/cowpics


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## cowkeeper (Feb 17, 2007)

LFG I think most of the cow people here are just scratching their heads and trying to figure out what might be wrong, and not meaning to be insulting.
I still think it could be LIVER FLUKES. What with the flooding..and they can come in on hay as well as picked up in previously flooded pastures. The time line is right, as you said the problem started a few months ago. It can show up as nothing much except some loss of condition and then the badly affected ones can suddenly die, while some less affected ones are still in quite good condition. It also causes cows to be down in milk. ck


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Would those not come up on a fecal? If not, how do you determine they are there? We have had a sample taken in last week from one of the poorer looking ones and it was clean. What takes care of that? We treated everyone with Ivomec early in the winter for a body lice issue. We sometimes get that when the temps drop off with the longer haired breeds.

Surely the guys at the lab that did the necropsy on the calf we sent in would have caught that?


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## B & B Farms (Jan 12, 2011)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> Now, as far as everything else goes, some one was talking about Wisconsin winters, and how we have no wind blocks, shelter, etc...I already commented on that, but I wanted to point out, that where ever that person lived is not the same as here. The big thing, is we have very little humidity. We are only a few miles east of the lake. The weather we get here is directly affected by the lake and is different than most other parts of the state.


Umm, my dear, having lived about two miles from where you live for 2 years while working away from my farm, YOU have extreme humidity even in winter!!!

Allene


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

OK, here is my thoughts on your cattle, as far as BCS goes. To me, they are all in that 3-4 BCS range. You can easily see the backbone on most of them, as well as a lot of the rest of their structure. They are sunken in in the hips and behind the shoulder. There is very little muscle expression in the hip, it is quite straight, no rounding there. Now I realize that a lot of your cattle are Highland and/or Longhorn which are not known for their muscling. The Highlands it is harder to tell their BCS due to the hair they have, but I think they are in the same condition. 

From the photos, I would say your feed is not that great. It wouldn't surprise me that you have lost some cattle due to it, especially older cattle and younger cattle. For one thing, old cattle and young cattle tend to be at the bottom of the pecking order, this means that they will eat last, so the mid aged cattle get all the best feed and the rest get what's left over. The bigger cattle who are generally in better condition and are bigger, push them out of the way and eat all the good stuff.

As well,the older ones may be missing teeth which makes it harder for them to consume enough feed and or digest it well enough. And also the younger ones, which require more energy/protein in order to grow, and the cold weather will add to that taking even more energy from them in order to keep warm. So it is a catch 22 for these cattle, they need better feed due to these issues and they get the worst of the feed because of their status in the herd. The cattle may not have precisely starved to death, but may have been stressed enough due to a lack of nutrients that they succumbed to another disease, and even the cold weather.

I don't know if you said you had dewormed these cattle either, if you haven't that would be another thing to do that will help out a lot. If they are carrying a heavy load of parasites that will drag them down as well. 

In order for you to bring the rest of the herd back into condition, preferably up to at least a BCS of 5 or so, some grain would be a great idea. And not just a couple lbs/ head. It will take more than that. The best idea would be to separate your herd into 3 or 4 groups, 
old cows in poor condition, and young cows(2 and 3 year olds) in poor condition,

last year's calves by weight, under 500 lbs and over 500 lbs (or some sort of idea like that) your little twins for example won't compete and get their fair share if put in with something twice their size.

nursing cows, and those due to calve soon

and the cows in the best condition

You will have to feed each group accordingly, 

The old cows and 2/3 year olds need good quality feed because they are both lacking teeth. Older cows because they lose teeth as they get older and younger ones because somewhere between 2 and 3 they lose teeth the same as kids do. Also your 2/3 year olds are still growing as well as having raise a calf and hopefully expecting another one, that is a lot going on!

Last year's calves need quality feed because they are really growing at this stage. How much they grow is = to how well they are fed. Now, you don't have to feed them 15 lbs of grain or anything like that, but it is best if you feed them enough to keep them growing over the winter. Use whatever you want, but if you're not using grain, you will need to find some pretty good hay.

Cows that are nursing of course need good quality feed as well. These ones are the ones you will see have problems quite quickly if they don't have good enough feed. They are lactating and healing from having that calf. The poorer the feed they have, the faster they will go down hill. Thin cows don't breed back very quickly.

Dry cows until they are in their 3rd trimester are the easiest cows. Their feed requirements are much, much less than any of the other groups. I believe that they need about 9% protein if I remember correctly. These cows still need decent feed, but it sure doesn't have to be top quality.


When you are feeding it is always good to remember about the pecking order. Any time you have a feed problem it will be the cows on the bottom end that will show up having problems first. Part of the pecking order is simply size, for example a 1000 lb cow is simply going to push a 500 lb calf around, and she will eat what she wants while the calf gets whatever is left over. Same thing happens with your bred heifers vs mature cows as well as bigger calves vs smaller calves. Horns are a big thing too. The cows with horns will tend to be higher up in the order than ones with out. If a horned cow comes along, the one that doesn't have horns will lose out, after all, she doesn't much care to have someones horns stuck in her ribs... And believe me the girls with horns know how to use them! And then, personality comes into play. Some cows are bullies while some are not aggressive at all. Obviously you know who's going to be boss in that case. I've seen non aggressive cows be first at the watering hole/bowl and still be there hours later because they won't fight for the water, they wait and drink when everyone else is done. That works fine for water, but not so well with feed, cause all the good stuff is gone by then.

Honestly, I do know a bit about what I am talking about, we run about 120 cows. We calve in March and April and will calve about 20 bred heifers this year. Our calves from last year are fed separately and they do get pailed grain, about 7 lbs of rolled barley/head/day. The bulls are also separated, mostly because we want to keep a defined calving season, and because I hate dealing with them on a daily basis. The cows don't get any grain unless it comes in a bale, and we do tend to feed some green feed every winter. The cows usually graze until sometime in December, when we run out of grazing and have to start feeding hay. The bred heifers live with the cow herd. We feed hay every day, right now we are rolling out 3 round hay bales and 1 round triticale bale, which should work out to about 35 lbs/head/day. Right now we have about 4 cows in which are in poorer condition, for various reasons. They don't get fed a whole lot differently than the main herd, but they don't have to compete hard to get enough to eat. 

As far as a barn is concerned, we have one, the only time it really gets used is at calving time. No matter the weather, the cows are outside, they have windbreak and trees and that is it. BUT, at calving if it is cold (below about - 10 C) out we use the barn, we try not to have any calves born outdoors if it is cold, and especially if it is windy. For us the cows pay the bills, and we can't risk losing calves to the weather if we can help it. 

Anyways, I hope this helps you out, and honestly I hope there is some disease causing your problems rather than the feed, and hopefully something you can fix easy enough through a vaccine. Fixing a feeding problem takes much longer to do....


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

OK I did not commit on the Highlands because I know nothing about raising them but I can guess on the weight on the others pretty close.....



all with birth weight of 70 pounds 

Bubbles is a 2 1/2 old steer looks like he weighs 800 lbs hes is 912 days old gaining .78 lbs a day

Dozy a 3 year old steer weighs 800 lbs and is 1095 days old gaining .66 lbs a day
do not know why you would have a 3 year old steer

YOYO 1 1/2 year old weighs 500 and is 547 days old gaining .86 lbs

chester 2 years old weighs 600 lbs gaining .88 pounds a day

yes I could be off on guessing the weight but they are not double the weight of what I guessed and thats were they need to be


A beef calf sucking mom on good grass should weigh 500 lbs at the very least at 205 daysweaning day ( some I have raised weight 700 lbs ) or you need to sell the cow and at 1 year should be pushing 650 just on GRASS and sucking mom thats gaining 1.59 a day...I do not know why yours are not that big but something is COSTING you big time..it being overstocked... not fertial soil not fertilizing....something is just not right


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Unfortunately, they all do look a bit thin and rough coated of course all the mud doesn't help matters any. Looks like it does here just about.  Granted, I don't know much of anything about Highlands and realize Longhorns are always thin, but the beef cows don't have the definition they should have.  I thought I read in an earlier post that they were wormed and fecal tests came back negative? So, I guess that rules that out.

There was a post of adding grain. That might really make a difference if you have a way of doing that. Around here they drop out bags and bags of range cubes to the cattle in the winter time. That might be an option. Or what about a grassy alfalfa mix hay? Could that help them? Or can you get a hold of sorghum hay? Sorghum hay is fed to a lot of cattle and goats around here and is good for fattening them up and keeping fat on over the cold months. I don't know what you can find where you're at.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

the pictures are deceiving for size. Dozy is pushing 1200 pounds as he sits now. yo-yo 700, chester, was 800+ before he lost all that weight. Bubbles, I don't know. I can't get that 'friendly' with him. 
The calf in the photos, bruiser is about 500 pounds.

We don't butcher any steers before 3 years old. We have found, they put on a lot of weight in that last 9 months. Especially the holstein crosses, which we are working away from. 
Dozy is actually 3 1/2. He is next on the list to go. He would have been already gone, but we sent that cow that tried to kill me instead.

randiliana - we have 3 separate areas. the twins, along with 2 others are in their own pasture away from the herd. They are in the orphan area. The nursing cows and their calves, and cows due to calve anytime are in a pasture with their own feeder, and the shelter with the creep gate for the calves. Also in there is Chester's sister so she can have unmolested access to the best feed. The rest of the herd is in the main lot.

They are getting daily barley and oats now and we have 4 high protein lick tubs out there and there are several range blocks in each feeder, plus a couple ground pans in various places. This doesn't count the mineral pans they already have.
Grass/alfalfa hay is what they are getting. We have been looking for some other hay to purchase, to help get them through the winter, but all we are finding is last summer stuff. If the hay is the problem, the last thing we want to do is buy in some more flood hay with the same issue.
Sorghum hay, never heard of it, but I will ask around.


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## Patt (May 18, 2003)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> First, I am going to respond to Patt. I am so glad to know that you have the most well-managed farm on the planet. Congratulations! Now, back to the real world.
> www.dollyrockfarm.com/cowpics


As I said repeatedly that is not true, I admitted we have had problems before too. Unfortunately you choose not to listen to people who are genuinely trying to help you and your animals. Several people agreed with me and now looking at your all of your cow pictures I can say I feel completely justified in what I said. I will not be posting further in this thread though.


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## TedH71 (Jan 19, 2003)

In Texas (where I'm from), Oklahoma (where I've driven through many times) and Kansas (where I currently live)...all have cattle out in the open with NO shelter except maybe some trees or gullys. Texas and some other states are known for having feral cattle. I know a guy who used to make a living herding (technically hunting them) feral cattle with his catahoula dogs. He lived to be over 90 years old. He passed away a couple of years ago and people were fighting over his dogs. They were that good. IT would be a horrendous waste of money to build shelters for every cow out there. In the old days, lots of cattle were feral. Free for the taking. I'm assuming those cattle were tougher than your every day domestic cow but then again, they ranged pretty much every where.


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## time (Jan 30, 2011)

TedH71 said:


> In Texas (where I'm from), Oklahoma (where I've driven through many times) and Kansas (where I currently live)...all have cattle out in the open with NO shelter except maybe some trees or gullys. Texas and some other states are known for having feral cattle. I know a guy who used to make a living herding (technically hunting them) feral cattle with his catahoula dogs. He lived to be over 90 years old. He passed away a couple of years ago and people were fighting over his dogs. They were that good. IT would be a horrendous waste of money to build shelters for every cow out there. In the old days, lots of cattle were feral. Free for the taking. I'm assuming those cattle were tougher than your every day domestic cow but then again, they ranged pretty much every where.


To be fair, I lived in texas for a few years myself, I believe I could live out in the open with no shelter too in the winter. As long as I have my winter coat. Just trying to lighten up the thread a little, hope ya don't mind.

LFG, I was wondering what is in the feeders in the background of a couple of the pics. It doesn't look like grass/alfalfa so was wondering what else you was feeding.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> They are getting daily barley and oats now and we have 4 high protein lick tubs out there and there are several range blocks in each feeder, plus a couple ground pans in various places. This doesn't count the mineral pans they already have.
> Grass/alfalfa hay is what they are getting. We have been looking for some other hay to purchase, to help get them through the winter, but all we are finding is last summer stuff. If the hay is the problem, the last thing we want to do is buy in some more flood hay with the same issue.
> Sorghum hay, never heard of it, but I will ask around.


I can certainly understand about the not wanting to bring in any more flooded hay. 

Sorghum is actually grown around here. Not sure if it is there. It's a very green, very broad leaf grass that almost looks like corn. It's high in calories and is used by a lot of farmers around here to feed goats and cows in the winter to keep fat on. It has to be run through a machine after harvest to crack the stems. Anyway, if you can find it, it'll really put weight on. 

I didn't know the hay was alfalfa/grass mix. It looked awfully brown. Assumed it was grass hay. 

Maybe you mentioned this already, and if so, I'm sorry, but did you see about getting your state vet. college or extension service involved? Surely they would know, if it was something due to flooded hay, then it would be impacting a lot of farms in the area and they might know what it is? Just an idea.


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

I also think it's worth repeating here, that along with any nutritional deficiency that might have been involved, the dairy animals you are raising NEED some sort of shelter/barn. Dairy animals are simply not as hardy as beef animals. They suffer greatly from any changes in weather. Weather fluctuations is one of the major causes of death of young dairy animals, and if you compound that with inadequate nutrition (and when you are feeding plenty of hay that is empty of real nutrition, malnutrition can certainly sneak up on you) you are looking at certain death, at least as far as those dairy animals are concerned. This is just an example of how we've over-domesticated most forms of dairy cattle. Bad weather and malnutrition means stress, extreme stress, and together they make a segue for opportunistic organisms, and general stresses that can be suddenly deadly to the animals.


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## Cannon_Farms (Aug 28, 2008)

alfalfa can also contain blister beetles which can cause serous health problems. Speaking of some one that cleaned up after Katrina floods can wash sewage into homes not to mention other toxic environmentally hazardous chemicals. I will admit I have not read the whole thread through and through just the first and last page.
Im not a huge fan of alfalfa when not used for milking animals down here, its just too expensive and rye hay carries almost the same nutrient value


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

If the cows are truly suffering from malnourishment from the hay this thread is a perfect illustration of the need to test your hay. It only costs $20!!!!!!

We are hay farmers and we test every lot of hay we produce. This gives out customers at least a starting point for feeding their livestock.

I am also Livestock Nutritionist and tire of the "Hay is Hay" mentality. That is just not the case, as we see here.

To OP needs to work with a competent nutritionist to get hay samples pulled and analyzed and develop a plan to remediate this herd.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

After posting earlier in this post that I have always tested my hay I went out to the barn and sat and observed my one beautiful, much loved dairy cow. She looks like crap this year. I bought the only hay I could find that could be delivered and the fellow did a classic show me one hay (leafy, green, soft, smelled like heaven) and deliver another batch of hay completely (hay was so hard to find this year!). I've known for months that the cow hated the hay and have been supplementing with some fabulous grass hay but could only get 60 bales for the whole season of that.

The cow does get some grain as well but honestly? I'm in the same boat you are. Bad hay, skinny cow. Your post helped me open my eyes and see what was going on in my barn more clearly.

I found some great alfalfa closeby and am heading out this morning to buy a bunch despite having a mow full of hay that will never get used.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

B & B Farms said:


> My Grandfather, Mother and I have raised Angus and Herefords for over 50 years, 100% grass fed, hay, protein and minerals in the winter and we have lost exactly 9 over 50 years!!
> 
> Allene


You must have some extremely aged cattle.


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

Originally Posted by B & B Farms 
My Grandfather, Mother and I have raised Angus and Herefords for over 50 years, 100% grass fed, hay, protein and minerals in the winter and we have lost exactly 9 over 50 years!!




Ed Norman said:


> You must have some extremely aged cattle.


 What makes you think that?? :shrug:


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## thequeensblessing (Mar 30, 2003)

cathleenc said:


> After posting earlier in this post that I have always tested my hay I went out to the barn and sat and observed my one beautiful, much loved dairy cow. She looks like crap this year. I bought the only hay I could find that could be delivered and the fellow did a classic show me one hay (leafy, green, soft, smelled like heaven) and deliver another batch of hay completely (hay was so hard to find this year!). I've known for months that the cow hated the hay and have been supplementing with some fabulous grass hay but could only get 60 bales for the whole season of that.
> 
> The cow does get some grain as well but honestly? I'm in the same boat you are. Bad hay, skinny cow. Your post helped me open my eyes and see what was going on in my barn more clearly.
> 
> I found some great alfalfa closeby and am heading out this morning to buy a bunch despite having a mow full of hay that will never get used.


We produce all of our own hay. We think that it pays to know the nutritional value of your hay, and this often goes hand in hand with knowing the nutritional value of your soil. Yes, have your hay tested, absolutely, and if you produce your own hay, have your soil tested as well. You won't get anything more out your hay than what the growing plants can get from the soil.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Because you made it sound like all your cows are 50 years old.

I touched some of the highlanders this morning that I posted photos of just to be sure of condition. Big Sheep, Chuck, and Bull-Regard, as well as Tank and 3 or 4 others have no protruding hip bones at all. 

Sandy, Abra, Dozy, and at least a dozen others just barely have protruding hip bones, and the 4 holstein crosses, plus Chester and his mother and sister, and Black Out look the worst. Everyone else is in between. 

See, the 4 Holstein crosses, and all those with barely protruding hip bones, like Dozy, I would call that normal for late winter here, which is why until the few started to look really bad, I would have thought nothing of their physical condition. That is why the deaths were so un expected and not forseen.

Even Tiny and Shazam. Tiny milks so heavy for a beef animal, that the weight of her bag in the first few months post-partum always makes her look a little drug down, and Shazam is so belly heavy, I would have attributed her showing hip bones to the weight of her fetus.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

lonelyfarmgirl We don't butcher any steers before 3 years old. We have found, they put on a lot of weight in that last 9 months. 
Dozy is actually 3 1/2. Dozy is pushing 1200 pounds as he sits now


by you saying this..you proved my point a 1200 lb is 1277 days old....if they weigh 1200 lbs and put on a lot of weight the last 9 months..
.is that at 
1 year weight of 350 ........should be 700 just on grass and hay
2 year weight of 700.........should be 1200
3 year weight of 1050
3 1/2 weight of 1200


they are not building reserves if that is all they are growing and can not handle stress....you also have more steers in the same boat...old and small..and it sounds to me like they are growing only 6 months of year during the summer but not at all during the winter


this is my last post on this thread also


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

Lazy J said:


> If the cows are truly suffering from malnourishment from the hay this thread is a perfect illustration of the need to test your hay. It only costs $20!!!!!!
> 
> We are hay farmers and we test every lot of hay we produce. This gives out customers at least a starting point for feeding their livestock.
> 
> ...


Like it has been said before here. The hay sampleswill be back tomorrow. So till then wait and see. Since she sourced hay from more then one place its very unlikely to have been a issue.

Now LFG pictures. For this time of year here in WIS and what cattle go through here. They are in good rig. They could see some bug killer. But the few that have been losing weight and been sick they have problems. You mention the one family group that seem to be the worst of the bunch. There could be a genitic issue there. That blood line might not handle harsh weather like we had. Then your holstein crosses look good for out side cattle. One thing to note about the highlanders and long horns. Them critters can live on twigs and brush if need be. They both are knowen for them attributes. I am not proud to say this but I have feed cattle some the nastiest junk hay you have seen. But, I also feed good hay every few days too. When you are a small farm you make due with what you got. This years we have been feeding alot of corn silage along with poor hay. Some years the rotation was good hay today poor hay tomorrow and then corn fodder bale the next. So did I starve my cattle to death? NO!!! Now years ago we lost a couple due to haveing worms and lice bad. That is when my grandfather who farmed the old way. He got educated on the use and contuined use of insecticides on cattle. He always thought it was a waste of money. Then you will see some beef farmers around here run cattle on corn stocks as long as they can. After the first week they have all the corn cleaned up and the grass ways picked. You may seem lick tanks put out to supplment them though.


I am still thinking these cattle got a clostridail bug and died fromt hat. A coupel that are still not looking good will need attention with penicillin and debugged so they have less to battle.


For a note here on barley. It is of better feed vaule then corn, also higher in rotein.
Bob


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

I looked at the pics again. The ones I am thinking are need attention are chester, and blackout. You can notice in them pics they are holding their guts up. It has not been coldenough teh last few days for them to hunch from the cold. Also if you get a chance with chester check his color in his mouth. I would get tehm 2 for sure on antibiotics till you get things figured out. Poor feed will not make the cattle stand around like that.
Bob


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

I looked at the cattle pics along with many others. To me the cattle appearance is better than most thought. It is not uncommon for cattle to lose some body condition during winter. That is why going into winter it is so important to have the cattle carrying some extra weight. I know this cannot always be the case. A summer drought and one that carries over into fall can be most detrimental particularly on a forage fed herd. What I did see in the pics was that the cattle are passing a lot of bulk fiber as the height of the cow pats indicates this. I also posted previously that the cattle IMO are not digesting the hay and that the problem could be traced to the mineral supplements or the lack thereof. The OP stated that mostly salt was what was being used and I asked for a check on the selenium. I myself researched the brand of the salt mix being used and I find that the PPM for selenium in the product is high. With the mineral program being what it is and the shortage of protein in the diet along with low quality hay the results are predictable. Has there been any additional death loss since obtaining the protein tubs and adding minerals? Thanks


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I'm not surprised that the Holstein X's are faring the worst. I once ran my 'steins with the neighbor's beef herd for a month while I was preparing to move from MI to PA, and was shocked at how skinny they'd gotten when I got back!  And this was in June, on lush pasture ... they just couldn't maintain their weight without some grain. 

I think you mentioned you were working to get the dairy genetics out of your herd ... that would probably be a good idea if you want to stay grass-fed.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

no, agmantoo, no more have died. Black-Out actually looks better. And no one else looks worse than they did the day we brought the tubs in. They are eating them up though.
But at this point, I don't think any of them are out of the woods yet. They are on the protein tubs steady and they have been given oats/barley several times a day, but we are in the middle of very heavy snowfall right now. We will see what happens come morning. I did tell them a few hours ago that no one is allowed to die overnight. I don't think they could understand me.

There are no intestinal parasites. We have had very recent fecals done, and they were all treated for external parasites in November.

also wanted to comment on what myers farm said. You may be right about them not gaining during the winter. It's likely, as the winters here are harsh. But for Dozy, he should have been gone at least 6 months ago. He was 1200 pounds then, and you certainly can't expect too much more weight than that out of a steer born of a 900 pound cow and a highlander father. Now he is just maintaining weight. And it will have to remain that way, as our loading chute is frozen into the ground.


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

LFG, we are fairing a bit better down here right now. Nothing but rain all day. The wife has to work tonight and hopes its stays above freezing.
Yeah its getting about time for another debugging then. Sometimes if we have a heavy load on them we redo the worst ones a month later. Most folks are not understanding you have small breed beef cattle. We actually have a tiny angus cross we are milking right now. She is 5 and weighs maybe 800. 2 of my white parks cross are going to be sold to a beefer in a few weeks. I can not beleive the weight they put on out side this winter. I am very glad they are not in the barn. LOL would have fun fixing stanchion for them all the time. I know the greif some have been giving you about your hay. I should post a picture of our first crop this year. Just nasty. We have been battleing june grass/kentucky bluegrass the last few years. Its great in yards but is junk in a hay feild. We have round bales of nice fine stemmed straw and the same in small squares. What has been keeping every thign going is the corn silage. Have you thought of feed sweet corn silage? Should be fairly cheap in your area.
Bob


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

we did think of feeding corn silage, but then we wouldn't be able to sell any of the meat from any animal that was fed the corn silage.
We have discussed buying in a semi load of balage, but Chris is afraid they won't eat it. He said one time some years ago, some hay he baled was a little too wet, and it siled in the center. He said the cattle all turned their noses up at it. Of course, now might be a different story, especially with the current problem. The cost would be about the same as a regular round bale.
I thought of getting one bale from a nearby farmer to try, but I don't think anyone around here has any.


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## B & B Farms (Jan 12, 2011)

I think you should think less about your "marketability" and more about your animals!

Allene


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> we did think of feeding corn silage, but then we wouldn't be able to sell any of the meat from any animal that was fed the corn silage.
> We have discussed buying in a semi load of balage, but Chris is afraid they won't eat it. He said one time some years ago, some hay he baled was a little too wet, and it siled in the center. He said the cattle all turned their noses up at it. Of course, now might be a different story, especially with the current problem. The cost would be about the same as a regular round bale.
> I thought of getting one bale from a nearby farmer to try, but I don't think anyone around here has any.


LFG:

You need to work with a Nutritionist, Extension Agent, Feed Salesman, Professor, or some with the knowledge and tools to help your herd. 

Jim


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I have to think about the whole picture for one, and in case you didn't notice, this whole thread is me thinking about my animals. We can't seem to find any of that around here right now either that wasn't grown around here. I look everyday for any option we can afford that is better than what we have. Anything we buy will have to come from out of state. Silage of any kind grown around here would have been affected by the flooding as well.

I probably would accept corn silage if that was the only option. And Jim, if you read through the previous posts, you will see I have sent in hay for testing. There is nothing more that I can do that I haven't already done until the results come in.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

Ok your going to have to explain to me way you can't sell your animals if you feed corn silage. Your already feeding oats and barley, you have protein tubs out which more then likely contain cotton seed meal, soybean meal, non protein nitrogen (urea), and a multitude of other by products.

I'm not saying you should feed silage, it would be a nightmare to feed unless you could get it extremly close.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> And Jim, if you read through the previous posts, you will see I have sent in hay for testing. There is nothing more that I can do that I haven't already done until the results come in.


That is great, but what are you going to do with the results once you get them?

If you want some contacts, PM me and I will see if I can help you.

Jim


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I really don't know what we will do once we get the results. I am so..well..this is so much to deal with, I figure to cross that bridge when I come to it.


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

LFG,
The cannerys are closer to you then us.They deliver teh sweet cron silage this far away. So, it would be no problem to you. The semi loads are 22 tons. You should beable to find a couple of silage bales local to try too. Each farmers hay will be differnt due to how some fertilize more thn others. There should be a local hay sale weekly near you also.
Bob


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Here are some cattle raised in Wisconsin. The photo was taken this weekend and they look pretty good to me, BCS of 6 probably.

Jim


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

There is a big difference in Hereford and Longhorn cattle. The Longhorn cattle I have seen appear to be a boney breed, as Herefords are bred to be beefy in appearance.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

Lazy J

Allowing for breed and possible grain access I do not see a lot of difference between the animals in your pic and those of lonelyfarmgirl. There is a variation in both groups. Are these whiteface cattle being maintained on hay only? Are they in an area where the feed source was stressed? I see one animal that is at best a BCS of low 5 and two that are a true five and another that is IMO BCS of 6. In larger numbers of cattle of mixed breeds and ages it is not uncommon to pick out a few poor performers. There are lots of cattle that go through sale barns this time of year that are a significantly in worse condition than any cattle pictured in this particular discussion. Given some time with the use of the protein tubs and with good mineral supplements I think the problem will correct at lonelyfarmgirl's place.


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## Onthebit (Dec 3, 2008)

agmantoo said:


> Lazy J
> 
> Allowing for breed and possible grain access I do not see a lot of difference between the animals in your pic and those of lonelyfarmgirl. There is a variation in both groups. Are these whiteface cattle being maintained on hay only? Are they in an area where the feed source was stressed? I see one animal that is at best a BCS of low 5 and two that are a true five and another that is IMO BCS of 6. In larger numbers of cattle of mixed breeds and ages it is not uncommon to pick out a few poor performers. There are lots of cattle that go through sale barns this time of year that are a significantly in worse condition than any cattle pictured in this particular discussion. Given some time with the use of the protein tubs and with good mineral supplements I think the problem will correct at lonelyfarmgirl's place.


I see them at the sales barn too and it disgusts me. If you can't feed your animals properly through the winter then get rid of them before they deteriorate so badly!! :hammer:


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

A _lot_ of the "starved" cattle in sale barns are old, gummer cows. It's not that their owners aren't taking care of them properly.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

I hope everyone realizes that protein isn't what puts on fat. Protein is needed for muscle growth for sure (among other things) but it is ENERGY that is needed for weight gain. Both are needed of course, but if you are feeding protein and expecting to see a sudden turn around as far as weight gain goes, you will be waiting a while. For real weight gain, cattle need something high in energy in their diet, and enough of it. This is why grass fed cattle take longer to finish than grain fed cattle. Energy is more likely to be lacking in hay and grass, rather than protein. There may be enough energy in hay to maintain an animal but not enough to encourage any major weight gain. 

When looking at a feed test result TDN = energy and CP = protein.

Weight gain/health/maintenance is subject to the least available nutrient. If there is lots of protein but not enough energy, then you won't see much weight gain. If you are severely lacking in some minerals, that will restrict growth as well. Energy is the most variable need. As long as your protein is acceptable and your minerals are too, energy can be added to encourage growth, or reduced down to a maintenance level.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

Most of the thin old cows that you see at the sale barn either have their teeth worn down or don't have many teeth. That is why they are being sold. In order to keep them in condition they would have to be feed gruel or alfafla meal and then they wouldn't look good. The only other option besides selling them is to shoot them.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

So if energy is what is required for weight gain, then how does a grass fed animal keep up if hay is lacking in that department?
What is full of the required energy that is not corn or soy?


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

lonelyfarmgirl

here is a couple of fact sheets on supplementing beef cows http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-1924/ANSI-3010web.pdf, http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-2014/ANSI-3017.pdf. This one is nutrient requirements of beef cattle http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-1921/E-974web.pdf. This is the Oklahoma State beef extension web site http://www.beefextension.com/ I know they are not strictly about grass fed beef, but hopefully you can gain some information.


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

You know, I am begining to think many folks here have never seenstraved cattle. Over the years there was 2 neighbors to me that was repeatedly turned in for starving cattle. You can count every bone on them and they had the pot hay gut. 
The pics of the herfords should be of concern too. the one on the far right is way over weight. Would cause concern for fatty liver.
Bob


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> So if energy is what is required for weight gain, then how does a grass fed animal keep up if hay is lacking in that department?
> What is full of the required energy that is not corn or soy?


Alfalfa tends to be the highest energy feed if you want to stay away from any grain products. BUT, and this is BIG, it all depends on how the hay was put up, what stage was it in, did it lay in the field too long and bleach, did it get rained on, is it first or second cut, what was the growing season like.... Top quality grass hay can be much, much better than poor quality alfalfa hay.

Feeding is a balancing act, you need to feed good enough quality feed for the animals to be able to perform or maintain themselves, but feeding better than you need to feed just costs $$ that aren't necessary to gain the results you want. Keep in mind that as far a CP goes, even a high milking cow only needs 12% protein at the peak of her production. A dry cow in late pregnancy is going to require about 8% protein. So, unless you are feeding really poor quality feed protein usually isn't a big issue. Whereas a high milking cow at peak production requires around 59-62% TDN and around 45-50% when dry.

Here's a table that shows the nutrient requirements for cattle at various stages in their life
http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publications/PDF/MP391.pdf

Here's a couple feed composition tables. For energy you want to pay attention to DE and TDN values. Protein is CP. Higher numbers indicate higher quality feeds. Remember, these values are an average value of the feeds tested. Quality depends on a lot of things, as I mentioned above.

http://beefmagazine.com/nutrition/2010FeedTable.pdf


Here's a really good site that explains a lot about feeding cattle and what they require as far as nutrients, energy and protein. 
http://www1.foragebeef.ca/$foragebeef/frgebeef.nsf/all/ccf21

Here is some info on the energy needs of cattle. 
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/faq7955


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

> So, unless you are feeding really poor quality feed protein usually isn't a big issue.


Have you read the entire thread...?


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

ErinP said:


> Have you read the entire thread...?


Excuse me, I was just talking in general here, trying to help her understand what is in the feed. If you've read through the thread, you will have noticed I've been in her from about the beginning !


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

Here's a workbook that might help you understand this a bit better. It has all the requirement and feed value tables in it too.

http://www.msue.msu.edu/objects/content_revision/download.cfm/revision_id.269171/workspace_id.-30/


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## ErinP (Aug 23, 2007)

randiliana said:


> Excuse me, I was just talking in general here, trying to help her understand what is in the feed. If you've read through the thread, you will have noticed I've been in her from about the beginning !


:shrug:
I rarely pay attention to names... 

My apologies for missing the shift from specific to general.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

No problem....


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I will check out these links you posted later on when I get time to sit down. Thanks for taking the time to post them. No word on the hay testing results yet.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> I will check out these links you posted later on when I get time to sit down. Thanks for taking the time to post them. No word on the hay testing results yet.


I will repeat my suggestion to get in contact with a quality Nutritiniost, Feed Salesman, Professor, or Extension Agent to help you with your herd. Following the advice of "Internet Experts" in a willy nilly fashion won't help you.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

lonelyfarmgirl
As the chores were done today did you by chance observe the cow patties from the current feed? Mainly I am interested if the height of the patties has diminished. Thanks


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

Well, the hay numbers are in, and it's ugly. The nice, leafy, green 2nd cutting alfalfa hay had protein around 11% and TDN of around 30ish%. I don't have the exact numbers. He read them to me over the phone. He is going to mail the paper report. 
Surprisingly, the brown, moldy, 1st cutting yuck hay you can see in the background of some of the photos was better all the way around. 
Protein at 15 1/2ish% and TDN in the 40's%. This was flood hay off our own field. The green stuff was what we bought in.

I know I had said before we bought from several different people. Most of that is gone, so we only tested the 2 we have the most of left.

After talking with the nutritionist about the various options, both corn, soy and other, we located some ryelage about an hour from here. The guy is going to deliver 14 bales tomorrow. It is 15% protein and TDN of 63%. The nutritionist said ryelage needed to be a minimum of TDN 50% and protein 14%.
He said feed it every other time in sequence with what we already have and also leave the molasses and protein lick tubs out there and that should be plenty enough to bring the herd back around.

Adding, I will look at cow pies this afternoon, maybe take a photo if I can find a good one, but yesterday we had a blizzard, and all poo was buried as it hit the ground. Nobody died this round. 

The next hurdle is to see if they will eat it.


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

Glad you got results and that you're able to do something with it. Good luck with your next course!!


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> Well, the hay numbers are in, and it's ugly. The nice, leafy, green 2nd cutting alfalfa hay had protein around 11% and TDN of around 30ish%. I don't have the exact numbers. He read them to me over the phone. He is going to mail the paper report.
> Surprisingly, the brown, moldy, 1st cutting yuck hay you can see in the background of some of the photos was better all the way around.
> Protein at 15 1/2ish% and TDN in the 40's%. This was flood hay off our own field. The green stuff was what we bought in.
> 
> ...


Did they give you the ADF and NDF values?


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

yes, he told me on the phone, but I don't know what those are, so I don't remember. He is going to mail the full report.


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## linn (Jul 19, 2005)

Glad you got the report back. Hoping things will go well for you from now on.


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## randiliana (Feb 22, 2008)

Well, it looks like, really, your protein was sufficient. But the energy was way low which makes sense. Now that you know what you are dealing with you'll get things straightened out, I'm sure.

Glad you could find some better quality hay within a reasonable distance of you! Good luck from here on....


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I had a long talk on the phone with the nutritionist later this evening. We talked about managing forages and different non-corn, and non-soy feed options in this particular area. We also talked about finish times and weight gains at certain ages. He was very helpful. He is going to come here maybe in a few weeks so we can put together a different kind of feed plan, to solve the problem someone here mentioned of not gaining weight during the winter, and preventing this sort of thing from happening again. At the end of the conversation he mentioned that it is a service they offered to their customers. I had no idea in the world they did that sort of thing for free.


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## farmergirl (Aug 2, 2005)

So happy to read that you have results back from the testing and are in good contact with a nutritionist. Before long, you'll look back on this winter of sorrow and remember it as a huge leap forward in your knowledge as a cattle rancher.

I'm still keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. It was in the 70's here today and the thought of dealing with livestock chores in your weather gives me shivers!

Chin up. Things are gonna be okay


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

farmergirl said:


> It was in the 70's here today and the thought of dealing with livestock chores in your weather gives me shivers!



I know you were talking to LFG and it's true, her microclimate in wisconsin is different than my microclimate in wisconsin, but....

cold is actually kinda nice for chores. Clean, frozen, no bad smells. No ooze, no mud, no bugs. Maybe not so nice for animals without a barn or very very good shelter. I much prefer winter chores to summer chores.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I hate to be cold, but cathleen is right. Dry, sunny and 10 degrees is the easiest chore weather.

Note to agmantoo. The cow pies look normal to me. Just a little taller than pancake style ,and the layered piles sag to the side instead of piling tall like a pyramid.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

lonelyfarmgirl

Thanks for the reply. When time permits go to some of the earlier pics you have and make a visual comparison. If my memory is correct and if I understand your current description you can see a major difference. The animals digestive system is IMO getting under control from the changes you have implemented and is functioning correctly at this time.


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## Cheribelle (Jul 23, 2007)

This has been very interesting and informative. Thanks to LFG for your candor, and thanks to everyone who contributed. I hope many others will find helpful info here, I know I did.


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## horsepoor21 (Mar 14, 2007)

Yes ,thankyou for this post . I learned alot !


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I got the paper report yesterday. The ADF were 50.81% and 52.98%. The NDF were 64.33% and 65.87%. What do those stand for?
What I don't understand is this. Most of the number values on here have a column called normal range. I assume that means where the number should lie in order for the hay to be within acceptable range. The ADF is a little high, but everything else is within the acceptable range. If that is the cases, then whats the problem?


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Those numbers indicate that your hay was overlymature and basically didn't have enough energy to support your animals. ADF is "Acid Detergent Fiber" and consists of cell wall portions of the hay which are Cellulose and Lignin. The NDF is "Neutral Detergent Fiber" and is made up of ADF plus Hemicellulose.

The objective to to have a low NDF as that is and inicator of the bulkiness of the hay, the higher the number the less Dry Matter Intake. As ADF increases the amount of energy available decreases since ADF is partially composed of the Lignin portion of the cell wall. 

If you had this analysis prior to winter you could have devised a feeding strategy to overcome the poor quality hay. Again this is an illustration of the need for livestock producers to analyyze their hay so they know how to feed their cattle. The simple $20 investment could have saved LFG $15,000 in cattle losses. 

Hopefully all who read this thread will use it as a learning tool to better manage their forage resources in the future.

Here is a decent primer on forage analysis from Dr. Rasby at the University of Nebraska: Understanding Forage Analysis

Jim


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## 6e (Sep 10, 2005)

I don't cattle ranch per se, but we do have a few cows and I have learned a lot. Thanks for the link on forage analysis.


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## thejerseylilly (Feb 17, 2011)

This is why I suggested a liquid feed supplement. Yes it has protein in it...but it also contains fat. (energy source) That might prevent anymore losses until the cattle can be gotten into better shape once green grass comes to their area. Because right now it would be hard for them to gain weight....and deal with the cold weather. But this might stablize them enough to prevent any more deaths. 
The liquid feed supplement we feed is 18% protein and 10% fat. comes from www.nationalfeed.com and more economical than some of the others we've tried in the past.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Well if anyone takes the time to read it all there is some good information and links in this thread. Lonelyfarmgirl, thank you for sharing your situation, and I sure do commend you for sticking with it in the face of some criticism. You let us all learn something right along with you.


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## farmmaid (Jan 13, 2003)

Ditto MO Cows...........We all "live and learn".............Joan


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## nobrabbit (May 10, 2002)

This was a very informative thread and a very tough way for Lonelyfarmgirl to learn about "good" hay via the loss of her cattle. It's very hard to lose an animal plus it's quite a hit monetarily. I do not think anyone takes it lightly. 

This same type situation happened to our neighbors last winter. They are an elderly couple that have been slowing down physically but still run about 100 head of beef cattle. Last winter the cattle started dying when we were getting ice storms. I'm a transplanted city girl who has learned alot about farming and raising animals but to me the cattle didn't look bad. My husband who has cattle farmed all of his life said they were starving to death and wouldn't survive the winter. I couldn't understand this because I saw them put rolls of hay out everyday. 

My husband explained to me that even though they raised their own hay due to probably the farmer's age it was let go too long before cutting and in between cuttings and the hay was "no good". He convinced them to start graining along with putting out the protein tubs which saved alot of the herd. This year he has taken over feeding for them plus the hay was cut at the appropriate growth stages this past summer and not one head of cattle has been lost this winter. 

We are lucky enough to be able to raise our own hay also and have not had any issues with our cattle and sheep. I've learned that feeding quantity is not the same as quality and lucky for us my husband is a very experienced cattleman.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I do very much appreciate those who have taken the time to offer suggestions and links throughout this nightmare. We have not yet figured out how to recover our losses, as the price of cattle is shooting sky high almost overnight, and demand for our beef just keeps increasing. Well, no one ever said success was easy.

At this point, no one else has died, and we had a strong healthy bull calf this afternoon, that practically hit the ground running. Mom has very little in the way of milk, but she has some, and I hope it will increase quickly with the better feed and the calf sucking on her. We will bottle feed him additionally as needed.


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## cathleenc (Aug 16, 2007)

Not sure how far you feel like driving but there were some really reasonbly priced highlanders on www.mwt.net last week.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

thanks for the link, I called them and left a message.


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## ksfarmer (Apr 28, 2007)

LFG, you might check with your local FSA office. There is a federal program that can help you recover livestock losses. I'm not sure if you can qualify because you have to be able to document your losses and tie it to a particular weather event. I think it is called the LIP program. It might at least be worth checking on.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

LFG
Glad you have found answers to your problems, thanks for sticking it out here so every one could learn from them.


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## Stonybrook (Sep 22, 2007)

I only occasionally lurk here, but I would have been ticked off at the first two vets too. It is fine and dandy to say your feed program is lacking and say you need to check with a nutritionist, but the problem was that it contradicted what she was seeing (feed in front of the cattle although admittedly maybe not the best feed in the world). If that was all the vets said, maybe they should have gone on to explain the problem like the last vet. 

Some of you all are implying that she was unwilling to accept advice, but obviously that is not the case. When told what the problem was with her feed, she corrected it quickly and even said they were going to send hay samples for testing, immediately and every year. That isn't an uncooperative, "bad" owner. It is an owner lacking knowledge. And, yeah, she probably should have specifically asked the first two vets what they thought might have been the problem with her feed program, but not everyone thinks that quickly on the spur of the moment. And why in the heck didn't they just tell her what the problem with her feeding program was if they were so darn knowledgeable. Even the third vet seemed to indicate that they should have handled it differently. 

Now that she knows, it should not happen again and maybe she learned a better way to communicate with her vet.


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## Judith (Jan 10, 2003)

When we had cows just lay down and die it was from "Blackleg" they would go from happy eating cows to dead in 6 hours! I lost 6 that year. Definately check your feed sounds like toxisity (sp) of some sort. Could even be your water so check that as well. So sorry for your losses. Livestock can be heart breaking


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## bonnycow (Feb 3, 2011)

I havent had a chance to read all the posts between 1st and last page .. limited time on computer ...I see you have had your hay tested and you sent a beast off for post mortum 
did they check for liver flukes?
maybe someone brought that up and I missed it 
we had something similar happen about years ago ... we were in a region that wasnt suppose to be infected .. we think they were shed into our pastures by a cow that was brought in from out of state 
it doesnt matter how good your forage is .. as we found out the hard way 

P Hyde


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## cowkeeper (Feb 17, 2007)

bonnycow said:


> I havent had a chance to read all the posts between 1st and last page .. limited time on computer ...I see you have had your hay tested and you sent a beast off for post mortum
> did they check for liver flukes?
> maybe someone brought that up and I missed it
> we had something similar happen about years ago ... we were in a region that wasnt suppose to be infected .. we think they were shed into our pastures by a cow that was brought in from out of state
> ...


Yes, I brought up the possibility of liver flukes because of the flooding. A couple of other earlier posters also mentioned liver. It takes a different wormer to deal with liver flukes. Flukes have moved into the OP's area in the last few years.ck


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

we are having a test done for that specifically. I did read the symptoms again. Problem is, none of our cattle have diarhea and the ones that died we cut them all open. they had normal looking livers.


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## agmantoo (May 23, 2003)

lonelyfarmgirl

No recent death reports so I conclude all remains OK. When time permits read post #28 to refresh your recall. I believed then and I believe now that was the situation at your place, not insufficient feed, not a disease and not parasites. Their digestive system simply shutdown and they died from that and the associated stress.


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## bonnycow (Feb 3, 2011)

lonelyfarmgirl

good glad actually others brought liverflukes up as an issue . and I missed it 
I would like to point out when we had our issues with fluke , we didnt have issues with loose bowels , and the one person who could have quickly alerted me to the problem 
was our proccessor who of coarse would have routinely seen at least my steers' livers
And for us it was a matter of time ( we estimated a period of at least 3 years that the problem was growing ... nothing like hindsight )
now at least once per year we give ivemec plus 
I am glad to hear you are considering them as a possibility


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

I too thank LFG for having the courage to start this thread!

After reading it, I went out and bought my cows a lick tub. I'm not sure whether they really needed it, but they sure do like it!


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## Cheribelle (Jul 23, 2007)

Protien tubs out in my pasture now, too!


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## PaulNKS (Jan 11, 2009)

I've been reading and just "watching". I'm glad things are on back on track. But.... I would consider getting rid of the oats. I've heard old ranchers say that a cow could starve to death on oats. Not only that, oats and barley are grains, if you are trying to stay with pure grass-fed.

The other thing I want to point out is the failings of the two vets. Veterinarians do not have a lot of education in nutrition. Their training and education is in medical. 

An example is that a rep from Land O' Lakes/Purina has more education and training in nutrition than a vet does.

However, after the first visit, I would have found a new vet.

Personally, I thought the cattle in the pics looked okay... 

I've been around cattle all my life and seen this problem a couple times before. I think it's great that it is brought up in this forum for new cattle owners to see.

Good luck for your road to recovery....


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

The oats and barley were a temporary thing to help put some energy into their diets. It was what happened to be immediately available. We have slacked off on those. They are eating the ryelage we bought in. There are a few that I think look a little better, and quite a few that look the same. No one looks worse, except one. Our longhorn bull went down about a week ago. We have him in traction hanging from the ceiling. 

He is standing much of the day on his own now and resting when he needs to. He is eating fine. We are going to let him in the straps for at least a week longer, maybe 2. We need to be absolutely sure that once we let him out, when he lays down, he will be able to get back up again.

Also, I talked to the new vet about liver fluke testing. He said they would have to send a fecal to the lab in Madison for the test, and no guarantee the results would be accurate. He said each cow sheds different amount of eggs, and it scuews tests.
Also found out the only way to treat is by injection or drench. How do you inject or drench an untouchable animal with a 3 1/2 foot rack? 

We also wondered, if we have liver flukes, wouldn't their livers be messed up? I looked at some photos online, and all the livers were really gross looking. Since this mess all started, we have sent 4 to the butcher, and we lost 8 adult animals. All had normal looking livers. 

New vet also said, it had been so long since they saw a case of liver flukes, she wasn't even sure how to test or what to treat it with.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

In case it hasn't been mentioned, protein tubs can be deadly to goats. So if anyone has those don't use anything with Urea.


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## B & B Farms (Jan 12, 2011)

Why is the longhorn in straps, I am assuming he couldn't stand on his own?? Has the good vet been out to see him, and if so what does he think??

Allene


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## B & B Farms (Jan 12, 2011)

Golly, I hate to mention this but I recently watched a YouTube video of cows that were watering from an area where Natural Gas Fracking is being done...did you have your water tested and is there anything like that going on around you, drilling, fracking, etc.???

Allene


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

LFG, sounds as though you have now got things in hand although it's going to be a long haul. 

Liver Fluke is something that I am unfortunately very familiar with but it can be a hard thing to detect in cattle as some deal with it very well, others fall over, others show oedema but are in otherwise good health.

One of the first physical signs of Fluke is oedema under the jaw which rapidly becomes quite enlarged. The cow may otherwise be in good condition. For younger cattle or those stressed by feed or pregnancy, they then start to lose condition and eventually will go down. Other cattle will show no further problems other than the oedema but will be severely compromised if other stress factors come into play at any time.

There are blood and milk tests now available to test for this parasite. 

I suspect that I have more drenches available to me than you probably have but all of them are very expensive. There is an oral drench available here called Fascimex (I think), a pour-on called Genises-Ultra (very expensive and very good) and I believe there is an Ivomec Injectable that deals with it too.

And yes, it does affect the liver very badly - I have seen them so congested with Fluke you wouldn't believe it. They look like dead pitasporrum leaves, grey and move and just choke all the tubes in the liver. I also have it in my sheep and drench accordingly.

Much of our stock water comes from drains, dams and the river and we are slowly getting troughs into all paddocks to encourage stock away from these other water sources. This won't alleviate the problem entirely but it goes a long way to decreasing the incidence.

Keep on trucking

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I looked up oedema and none of our cattle have that.
The vet is of the opinion the longhorn went down due to the same problem all the others have had. Why he was thus affected after we had the ryelage in the feeders for a week, I don't know.

No, no fracking around here. The worst we have is a few small quarries, and lots and lots of ag chemicals.


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## B & B Farms (Jan 12, 2011)

Have you had your well tested?? We truck water in here because of Ag runoff!

Allene


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

not recently. we had it tested a few years ago, and it was a little high in nitrates, but nothing more than that. probably wouldn't hurt to have it tested again, but if there is something there, its not killing the koi.


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## willow_girl (Dec 7, 2002)

How is the bull doing???

I don't think I'd cut down on the supplemental feed until the whole herd is doing better or at least 'til you no longer have cattle going down.


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## Allen W (Aug 2, 2008)

lonelyfarmgirl said:


> I looked up oedema and none of our cattle have that.
> The vet is of the opinion the longhorn went down due to the same problem all the others have had. Why he was thus affected after we had the ryelage in the feeders for a week, I don't know.
> 
> No, no fracking around here. The worst we have is a few small quarries, and lots and lots of ag chemicals.


It takes awhile for them to adjust to the higher quality feed. He was already on of the weakest from what I understood from your posts. He didn't have the strenghth to make it over the hump and adjust to the new feed.


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