# goats hair changing color???



## mamajohnson (Nov 27, 2002)

ok, I feel like everything weird happens to me! 
I let my girls out twice a day to browse the woods around the house. (the other day they ate poke weed, but are fine ) Milk twice a day also, so I spend time with them, see them up close and in person several times a day. Now, you wonder where I am going with this right??
I have one that is black with white markings, she looks good, shiny, no variations in the black (did have at one time, but loose minerals solved that)
2 girls are brown with black markings on one, white frosted ears on the other.
1 is light tannish colored with white.
Now, my alpine girl that is brown with black markings had some weird changes I noticed today. Milked her, didnt notice anything, but letting her back in the pen I noticed grayish 'blotches' on her back and side. I moved the hair and took a closer look. The hair color has changed. Is this weird? or what? Also noticed her 4 mo old baby (brown colored) has light colored 'blotches' too, almost turning white.
They have lots of browse and free choice minerals, baking soda. UTD on worming, pink eyelids. So, what gives? I have also noticed the last couple of days they have been shedding a bit-All three of my light colored girls - not my black one. They do get grain - well my two milkers do 2x a day the other two do get it occasionally in the evening, not routinely.
I just can't figure out why the hair would change color any ideas???


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## HazyDay (Feb 20, 2007)

happens to my Alpine doe. so is almost pure black; but in the winter she turns grey! doesn't make me mad just means I get a different color for a little. My black Nubian doe stays black all year round! Must be an Alpine thing!


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## Sweet Goats (Nov 30, 2005)

Did you say they are getting a good mineral that has Cooper? It sounds like they are lacking Cooper.


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## mamajohnson (Nov 27, 2002)

I am pretty sure it has copper, it is loose minerals for goats.
Been out there free choice for months.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Angora that comes in as her thick winter coat comes in near the skin and sort of pushes away the other hair, hence the blotches. Is the blotchy hair underneath cottony? It's her winter undercoat. Nubians would never have the hair coat like an Alpine would, it's not part of their breed. Vicki


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## mamajohnson (Nov 27, 2002)

well, I didnt notice any cottony look, I know what you mean, because my buck is alpine and he gets that, in fact he is black with a white/gray undercoat in winter. Just grayish patches about the size of a silver dollar on her. I will go look again in a bit.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Our nubian faded until we added enough copper to her supplements. Then her hair came back in the right chocolate brown color.


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

Besides copper deficiencies (which can also manifest in other ways, such as a wirey or pig-like coat (thinning hair, lighter color, etc.), dropped or weak pasterns, bowed legs, hocky legs, etc., coat changes can come from zinc deficiencies. There are a lot of other reasons for coat changes, but these are the first that come to mind to this newbie.


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## mamajohnson (Nov 27, 2002)

ok, I have looked at my minerals. Copper is 1750 ppm, I am not in a selenium deficient area, zinc is 50 ppm. So, I am thinking they have free choice on the mineral, shouldnt be deficient on any of those. Went and checked the girls also, no fuzzy white undercoat on the alpine - it is still in the 90's so I dont think she would be getting her winter coat yet. My Saanen and Alpine both are loosing some hair, if I brush it the wrong way I will get more than I think I should, not a ton, not even a handful, but seems like too much. My nubian and other alpine mix have nice coats, no hair loss, no color changes.
I guess I just need to watch and see what happens.


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## hoofinitnorth (Oct 18, 2006)

Minerals are always tricky since they aren't always absorbed well with feed-throughs. Could you have your vet do a blood draw or hair test?


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## oceanmist (Mar 21, 2006)

mamajohnson said:


> ok, I have looked at my minerals. Copper is 1750 ppm, I am not in a selenium deficient area, zinc is 50 ppm. So, I am thinking they have free choice on the mineral, shouldnt be deficient on any of those. Went and checked the girls also, no fuzzy white undercoat on the alpine - it is still in the 90's so I dont think she would be getting her winter coat yet. My Saanen and Alpine both are loosing some hair, if I brush it the wrong way I will get more than I think I should, not a ton, not even a handful, but seems like too much. My nubian and other alpine mix have nice coats, no hair loss, no color changes.
> I guess I just need to watch and see what happens.



you might consider doing some research on things that would cause copper antogonist... something they are lacking that's causing them to not be absorbed or something they are getting too much of that's blocking it.

I am not sure that 1,750 pmm would be enough... again what's going on with their diet...
are they different ages, related animals... what's different about them compared to the rest of the herd?

you might look into giving the ones with the deficiency copper boluses for cattle, crush them and put them into human gel-caps... or what about Geritol??

Misty


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## oceanmist (Mar 21, 2006)

INFORMATION OBTAINED FROM WWW.TENNESSEEMEATGOATS.COM

COPPER DEFICIENCY AND TOXICITY IN GOATS

The exact amount of copper required in the goat's diet is currently unknown and is dependent upon several factors. However, the goat needs far more dietary copper than was originally thought. Testing can reveal enough copper in tissue or blood samples and the goat can still be copper deficient. This is due to the complex interaction of minerals in the goat's metabolic system. Copper is essential in the proper development of the central nervous system, correct bone growth, and hair pigmentation. Copper-deficient goats have difficulty conceiving kids and, if bred, abortions are not uncommon. Copper supplementation can sometimes help but cannot always eliminate these health problems.

Copper deficiency can be the result of low levels of the mineral in the soil and in forages raised on the soil; this is primary copper deficiency. However, both the feed and the soil can have adequate copper but its absorption can be interfered with by minerals known as copper antagonists: lead, iron, manganese, various sulfates, cadmium, and molybdenum. This is secondary copper deficiency.

Congenital copper deficiency is the term used to describe the kid who did not receive sufficient copper in utero. Often born swaybacked, the kid stands unsteadily or cannot stand, displays muscle tremors and head shaking, and may grind its teeth. The kid can see, hear, and sometimes can nurse, but he has low blood sugar (hypoglycemia) and sub-normal body temperature (hypothermic). Bone abnormalities are common, particularly in the long (leg and back) bones of the body. Complete recovery from congenital copper deficiency does not often happen because problems that occurred during fetal development may not be correctable. With intensive nursing, swaybacked kids may survive for days or weeks, but they usually do not live long.

Kids who appear to be fine at birth but develop symptoms at around three months of age are said to have the delayed form of copper deficiency. Evidence of atrophied muscles appear, tremors and incoordination occur, and leg weakness is displayed. Usually the problem appears in the rear legs first, but not always. Kids with front-leg weakness will spent lots of time on their front knees. Kids with rear-leg weakness will pull themselves around by their front legs. Death occurs from secondary problems, like pneumonia. This delayed evidence of the results of copper deficiency can be confusing, diagnosis-wise, because it is sometimes accompanied by the neurological form of Caprine Arthritic Encephalitis (CAE), listeriosis, or even muscular dystrophy. Secondary copper deficiency tends to be more responsive to treatment than primary copper deficiency.

Insufficient weight gain, poor appetite, and weight loss are seen in copper-deficient goats of growing age. Adults display more subtle signs of copper deficiency. They are generally unthrifty, anemic, poor milk producers, and sometimes have diarrhea. But the most visible sign of copper deficiency in adults is loss of hair color. Copper is essential for melanin production that causes hair pigmentation. Hair decoloration occurs when the copper-containing enzyme is missing.

Control of proper copper levels in goats is critical. Find out why the goat is copper deficient. Is the soil low in copper? Is there interference in copper absorption because it is binding with other minerals (copper antagonists)? Goats metabolize and store copper much differently from sheep. Do NOT use products labelled "for sheep & goats" because they are woefully insufficient in the amount of copper needed by goats.

Copper can be given to pregnant does and newborns sub-cutaneously (SQ) in the form of copper glycinate or orally in the does' drinking water via copper sulfate. Severely copper-deficient goats are sometimes given copper boluses which attach to the inside of the body and slowly deliver copper at a predetermined rate.

The easiest and probably the best method, in the opinion of this writer, is to furnish loose minerals with sufficient copper content free-choice to the goats year-around. However, the copper level must be based upon several factors, including the copper available in any ration that is fed to the goats.

Copper levels in loose minerals fed free-choice may safely be considerably higher than in "full feed" packages that are consumed by the goats on a daily basis. For example, a "full feed" should not more than 15-20 ppm of copper in most cases, while free-choice loose minerals might be as high as 1500 ppm in copper. Have your forage tested for copper levels before deciding on copper levels in your feed and minerals packages.

It is possible to induce copper toxicity in goats. Copper accumulates in the liver. Red/brown urine may be a sign of copper poisoning. Using calf milk replacers has caused copper poisoning in kid goats.

Up to 1200 ppm of copper may be fed to goats under specific situations. The goat producer must determine what conditions apply in his particular geographic area and based upon his feeding program. Check with a knowledgeable goat veterinarian for proper dietary levels of copper for your goat herd. Much more scientific research needs to be done in this very important area of caprine nutrition.


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## susanne (Nov 4, 2004)

better source for research on copper is saanendoah. joyce lazzaro did all the research and testing. a wealth on information.
http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html


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## xoxoGOATSxoxo (Jul 29, 2006)

I agree with the whole copper thing, but my Alpine was a sundgau (just black and white on her, you know) when she was a baby, and every year the white triangle on each of her sides gets a little bigger. Her hips turned a chestnutty brown color when she was about 2, and every year they get a little more brownish. Her mother was a reddish brown Alpine, not sure on the variety. Maybe a broken chamoisee? She is still a sundgau, but is kinda tricolored with more white hairs. She is not deficient in anything, I dont think, because she has free choice of a variety of loose minerals, and also a mineral salt mix.


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## mamajohnson (Nov 27, 2002)

well, the only related goats I have right now are the alpine and her baby. 
diet is lots of east texas browse, for milk stand feed they get oats with some sweet feed (dont beat me!) BOSS and alfalfa pellets mixed in.
Then the loose minerals and baking soda.
I was giving them a horse feed with extra minerals in it, but it was pretty pricey and I had to drive a good ways to get it, so I phased that out.
oceanmist, when I was researching I found that same article!
will do more reading.
Other than the spots on her coat my alpine is eating well, seems to be herself, full of energy, milking well. May just be nothing to worry about.


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## mamajohnson (Nov 27, 2002)

ok, just read this "Copperâs availability is reduced by iron, sulfur, molybdenum & zinc." I know for a fact we have high iron content in our soil. (this place was mined for iron ore at one time)
So... I will assume I need to up the copper more.
Different ways to do that will be what I look at next.
I sorta like the gel cap or geritol idea. hmmmm may even have geritol in there somewhere.


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## LMonty (Jul 31, 2006)

Soem thoughts: Might want to check the content of the gel cap or geritol. The ferric ammonium citrate or other ferrous ingredient in geritol liquid is iron. I just checked the ingredients on an MSDS sheet and didnt see any copper at all. If you add more oral iron to an already deficient animal, it could tip the scale from deficiant to death. 

If you have a copper deficiency thats alreasy showing clinical signs like hair color change, then oral copper probably is way to slow and poorly absorbed in your animals to have an oral supplement work well for you. You may find much better/faster and less expensive results from an injectible form or from rumen boluses, at least until the definiciency is cured.


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## Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians (May 6, 2002)

Most horse sweet feeds are 25% molassas, thats a whole lot of iron! Vicki


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## mamajohnson (Nov 27, 2002)

yeah, I have been weaning off the sweet feed, adding more oats and such. I have actually cut the sweet feed in half over the last month. I only use about 50# of sweet feed to 150# of feed. so, I guess you could say it is only 1/4 sweet feed. Shouldnt concentrate the iron too much I wouldnt think.


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