# Off Grid method to keep pipes unfroze



## Pelenaka (Jul 27, 2007)

For the last two Winters we have heated primarily with wood except for those times when we were away from home for the day & the furnace kicked on @ 50 degrees. 

The other instances were when it was bone chilling cold as in below 10 degrees & there was a big wind chill factor which makes our cellar temps hover around 20 degrees so we ran the furnace to heat the cellar.

Cellar is stacked stone circa 1902 with 3 windows & door all of which are new.
Poured cement floor.
Hot water heater & furnace on natural gas.
All the hot water pipes have foam insulation.

Question is - what off grid method can I use to to keep the water pipes from freezing ? 


~~ pelenaka ~~


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## sisterpine (May 9, 2004)

We have most of our pipes in a smallish utility room with our water storage stuff, we are well insulated and heat the space with four two standing pilot lights from the hot water heater and the freezer which when running is like a little furnace. sisterpine


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## trapperJim (Jan 24, 2008)

Are your pipes primarily in one location or are they scattered throughout the cellar ceiling? My present cabin as well as my last cabin was built on piers. The skirting here is insulated and I have no issues with frozen pipes even with temps crashing to 38 below. My last cabin however didn't have insulated skirting but my pipes ran in straight cluster from the bathroom to the kitchen beneath the floor. Since they were all in one location I was able to box them in and insulated the sides and bottom of the box with styrofoam and never had any issues with freezing. It sounds like you must have a lot of air infiltration if the temps in your basement are plummeting to 20*. Is there any way to seal this off any better? Im my present home I have a thermometer under the house with the digital display up inside so I can monitor the temps underneath. My plan is to run a small duct or pipe with a small box fan and have this discharge beneath the house. I would only run it if I saw the temps drop into the worry zone and suck some of the warm air from the house down to the underworld. We heat primarily with wood too so dispencing a little warm air where needed wouldn't be a cost issue and the house is too hot half the time anyway.


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## Ross (May 9, 2002)

Insulating the basement might help alot. I hope someone has a more creative method though; that would be interesting!


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## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

I'm not sure of what you want. Are you asking about keeping them thawed when you are not there? When you are there, the house is heated, but the pipes freeze?

If the structure above the basement is heated, the pipes should not freeze. Air leaks are the main reason a basement isn't over 40deg in the winter, if the rooms above it are heated. Get many cans of great stuff expanding foam, and fill in all the cracks between the stones and the sill plate/timber.



Once you have a more airtight basement, if it still gets cold, you can insulate the foundation. They make foam insulation board that you dig down along the foundation, and then attach the insulation to the foundation, up to the sill plate/timber. The foam has a cement coating to protect it from the sun and weather. One problem with some basements is that the distance from the soil to the top of the basement wall is fairly tall. This is unheated area, so acts like a heat sink. The insulation on the outside of the basement walls will solve this problem as well.

If you want or need more heat in the pipes, its possible to set up a thermosyphon loop through the water heater, so the pipes stay warm. Its easy to add a return at the highest/furthest hot water line. You would then either add a small water heater turned very low for the cold line, or insulate the hot/cold lines together. Problem with insulating together is that the cold line will not be as cold the rest of the year.

Along the lines of the thermosyphon loop is a forced circulation system. These systems provide instant hot water at the faucets. You can do something similar, but add a loop for the cold water as well. DC power if you're off grid. Use a tempering valve from the water heater to keep the cold water above freezing. You don' t have to set the temp high in the loops, just enough to keep them thawed.

Michael


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## Pelenaka (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for all the replies everyone. 
I'll do another leak patrol it's been 8 years since the last one. 
I'll check into insulating the walls but I don't think for now that's a possiblity. Cellar runs mildly damp in the best of times. I also need to reskim the walls as the 109 year old mortar is leaving the building bit by bit. 

The pipes start in the 1/3 of the cellar right to left, then come up along the left had side to the center of the cellar then up thru the floor. The house wasn't orginaly plumbed for water. 

With next years tax refund I want to install an electric on demand water heater so I don't think the thermosyphon loop will work.

The pipes have never frozen in the 10 years I've own the house it's just something that weighs on our minds when it gets that cold.

I quess what I am looking for is a method that I can wrap a heating cable powdered by solar around the cold water pipes, crazy huh. 

There is a heat duct/register within 5 feet of the wood stove. If we removed the duct work then we might be able to do a system to simular to what trapper jim described. Maybe set a small fan facing down into the cellar so it pulls warm air down into the cellar ? 

Today it was 90 so we just opened the kitchen door which leads to the cellar & the upper most window in the house. That cool air just rose up from the cellar.

As a side note what I wanted to do when we installed the wood stove was to run a few thick soild metal pipes from the cellar up thru the hearth to the back of the stove. The pipes would then be heated by the stove and thus heat the cellar.
Code man said no.

Thanks again for all the replies. 


~~ pelenaka ~~


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## trapperJim (Jan 24, 2008)

It sounds like we have similar situations except I have a crawl space and you a basement, but both damp and cold. I bought a 6" section of pipe with a fan already installed in it for this purpose. As I previously mentioned, my place is on piers but skirted and insulated with foam. The pipes have no insulation on them and so far no issues but my it's dropped below my comfort zone a time or two with temps of 34*. That little fan/duct I bought should suit my needs cause all I'll need to do is raise the temp a couple degrees from time to time and it won't be a costly endeavor to do so. For me anyway, it seemed the the cheapest solution.


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## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

Pelenaka said:


> ...
> 
> The pipes have never frozen in the 10 years I've own the house it's just something that weighs on our minds when it gets that cold.
> 
> ...


If the pipes have never frozen and you have propane heat as a backup, I don't think you have a problem. Put a thermometer in the basement, and check it the next time it gets really nasty out. If its under 45degF, then you can start worrying. If its over, then you have a typical basement and I would worry about something else. Battery/generator backup for the furnace/heater perhaps.

Michael


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## farminghandyman (Mar 4, 2005)

If you want to plumb some add a circulating pumps to the lines and keep the water moving,

insulate the concerned areas, windbreaks on the out side, (people will yell at me here, but I know one couple who live in a poorly insulated house and they put a plastic sheet up on the north side of the house in the winter, (it is so loose that moisture build up is not a problem) it was so bad you could light a match in side and blow it out and watch the smoke and know which way the wind was blowing out side), 

In the winter many in our area will line the house with hay or feed bales to help insulate the basement area/crawl space.


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## artificer (Feb 26, 2007)

trapperJim said:


> It sounds like we have similar situations except I have a crawl space and you a basement, but both damp and cold. I bought a 6" section of pipe with a fan already installed in it for this purpose. As I previously mentioned, my place is on piers but skirted and insulated with foam. The pipes have no insulation on them and so far no issues but my it's dropped below my comfort zone a time or two with temps of 34*. That little fan/duct I bought should suit my needs cause all I'll need to do is raise the temp a couple degrees from time to time and it won't be a costly endeavor to do so. For me anyway, it seemed the the cheapest solution.


Thats a good cheap solution. Insulating the duct work is the next step, but you probably already know that.

The main difference between your crawlspace and a basement is that the basement is a geothermally heated space. Sort of. If it isn't too drafty.

Michael


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2011)

I kinda doubt the 20 degree reading. A basement should stay warmer than that and if it was really 20 degrees I would think the pipes would have frozen already. 

I agree that you should seal the drafts in the basement and insulate if you can. Check and see if there is an insulation that is safe to put on the inside of the basement walls and that won't be bothered by the humidity.

The pipes have never frozen but you are worried they might. You just want something for peace of mind. I would go ahead and put the foam insulation on the cold water pipes too. They will take longer to freeze with the insulation on and the cold snap may be over before they do. You can put a gas fired, unvented, heater in the basement. It can be set to come on when the temps fall below 40 degrees which should not be often so you won't use much gas. Be sure it is rated for indoor use and has a low oxygen shutoff. I would also mount a CO2 detector in the basement. These solutions use no electricity and should not cost too much.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

Pelenaka said:


> Hot water heater & furnace on natural gas.
> All the hot water pipes have foam insulation.
> 
> Question is - what off grid method can I use to to keep the water pipes from freezing ?
> ...


They shouldn't freeze in the basement if they are wrapped. Ours never have, and they aren't even wrapped, nor is the basement heated.


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## ldc (Oct 11, 2006)

We used heating tape wrapped around the pipes, and then wrapped as much fiberglas insulation as we could around that. The kind of heating tape that runs on electric, and doesn't come on until the pipe temp drops to less than 50 degrees. This was in a tiny crawl space under a Victorian house that was completely UNINSULATED in New Jersey in the early 80's. It worked well. ldc


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## Pelenaka (Jul 27, 2007)

ldc said:


> We used heating tape wrapped around the pipes, and then wrapped as much fiberglas insulation as we could around that. The kind of heating tape that runs on electric, and doesn't come on until the pipe temp drops to less than 50 degrees. This was in a tiny crawl space under a Victorian house that was completely UNINSULATED in New Jersey in the early 80's. It worked well. ldc


Thanks I'll look into that. I'm also considering adding a solar room heater for the cellar. At least during the day it would be warmer.

This is what I'm planning on doing now that it's finally in the high 80's here - cleaning the cellar & rearranging. Cutting foam insulation panels to fit into the windows as well as marking & repairing air leaks for caulking.


~~ pelenaka ~~


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