# âWeâre coming for your guns,â says Tallahassee columnist



## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

http://www.examiner.com/article/we-re-coming-for-your-guns-says-tallahassee-columnist

*Tallahassee Democrat journalist Gerald Ensley, wrote the 
following in his column: &#8220;Stop the insanity. Ban guns.&#8221;
**&#8220;I'm not talking about waiting periods and background checks,&#8221; he continued. 
&#8220;I&#8217;m talking about flat-out banning the possession of handguns and assault rifles 
by individual citizens. I&#8217;m talking about repealing or amending the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.&#8221;*
*&#8220;We&#8217;re coming for your guns. And someday, we&#8217;ll take them...&#8221;

*The whole country has been thinking about Ferguson for three months, 
and the grand jury finally made the call based on the facts. 
Michael Brown was not, *as originally alleged*, shot in the back, with his arms raised. 

Yet, in an e-mail last night over the name of Cornell William Brooks, president and CEO of the NAACP, 
he wrote about being &#8220;filled with frustration, disbelief, and anger&#8230;That the officer who shot and killed 
an unarmed black man with his hands in the air remains free is appalling.&#8221;:facepalm:

What happened in Ferguson, and elsewhere that protests gave troublemakers an excuse to smash, 
grab and burn, just might result in more gun sales. Over the past several weeks, gun sales in the 
Ferguson and St. Louis region have skyrocketed. That can&#8217;t be comforting to Ensley or other gun prohibitionists.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

I really hate that he wont be the one knocking on my door.......:hammer:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

While the 2nd Amendment guarantees your right to bear arms, the 1st Amendment guarantees his right to lobby for the repeal of the 2nd Amendment. You don't have to agree, but he has every right to say it.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Nevada said:


> While the 2nd Amendment guarantees your right to bear arms, the 1st Amendment guarantees his right to lobby for the repeal of the 2nd Amendment. You don't have to agree, but he has every right to say it.


 While you are right can we take a guess that you dont own one either ??


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

TripleD said:


> While you are right can we take a guess that you dont own one either ??


I own a gun. In fact I own a handgun.


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## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

Nevada is right. No law against being an idiot either. :facepalm:


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Nevada said:


> I own a gun. In fact I own a handgun.


 I knew you liked using your 1st amendment rights alot. Glad to see you like the 2nd tooooo.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

Nevada said:


> While the 2nd Amendment guarantees your right to bear arms,
> the 1st Amendment guarantees his right to lobby for the repeal of the 2nd Amendment.
> You don't have to agree, but he has every right to say it.


****************
"discuss" on an issue. I'm not disagreeing with his right to say it, although
he will have a tough row to hoe if he thinks he'll get it accomplished in his lifetime.....if ever.
What I find amusing is that you apparently disagree with his assessment that the 2nd *DOES NOT* 
guarantee us the right to bear arms. Or do you also secretly agree, but choose not to at this point in time?

Apparently you didn't read that portion where he believes that former chief justice Burger 
in an earlier interpretation of that Amendment, made a major mistake in recognizing it as 
a right for the 'common' man. As I recall, he stated that it was, and I quote: &#8220;a fraud on the American public.&#8221;
He went on by referring to *gun owners as &#8220;gun freaks.&#8221;* He asserted, &#8220;Every legal opinion for 200 years denied 
individual gun ownership was a right &#8212; until the steady lobbying of the National Rifle Association created a climate 
that allowed a conservative U.S. Supreme Court in 2008 to strike down a handgun ban in the District of Columbia, 
and fuel the sense of entitlement of gun owners.&#8221;


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

TripleD said:


> I knew you liked using your 1st amendment rights alot. Glad to see you like the 2nd tooooo.


************************************
that he likes the 2nd. You would presume too much to your sorrow.

(You also have no idea if he even knows which end the tiny little bullet comes out of.) 









Picture of Nevada's handgun.



Remember that Pelosi and the rest of her like-minded ilk, 
don't want the rest of us 'peons' to possess weaponry,
but have no problems being hypocritical by also carrying 
or having hired 'thugs' guarding their worthless carcasses.

To be a true liberal, you must have a bit of hypocrisy or it fails.:ashamed:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

copperkid3 said:


> To be a true liberal, you must have a bit of hypocrisy or it fails.


I'm not sure what the answer is, but when over 30,000 Americans die each year from gun violence we should be looking for an answer.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Nevada said:


> I'm not sure what the answer is, but when over 30,000 Americans die each year from gun violence we should be looking for an answer.


 Its better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it !!!!!


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I'm not sure what the answer is, but when over 30,000 Americans die each year from gun violence we should be looking for an answer.


***********************
the ball in having automobiles banned from the roadways then.....

The numbers are much higher than for gun accidents......

According to reports published by various sources, a low of 33,850 to 
42,626 people are killed in VIOLENT and UNPREDICTABLE motor vehicle
accidents each year in the U.S. of A.

http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/stats.html

Of course to suggest such (much less act upon) would be political suicide.
Not to mention, hypocritical, in that those who would ban them for the common folk, 
would still be allowed the 'right' to be chauffeured around in their armored limos.

Although, if you stop to think about it, there is *NO CONSTITUTIONAL* 
right to own and/or operate a motor vehicle upon the public roadway.... 

But for any liberal legislature to suggest such a possibility would likely get him SHOT!!!


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

copperkid3 said:


> According to reports published by various sources, a low of 33,850 to
> 42,626 people are killed in VIOLENT and UNPREDICTABLE motor vehicle
> accidents each year in the U.S. of A.


Motor vehicles do society a lot more good than guns do. Nobody is going to argue that fire, police and ambulance vehicles are a good thing. It's also a good thing to be able to use a motor vehicle to get to work, or to get to thanksgiving dinner.


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

I won't give him my guns, but if he want to come to take it, I'll give him my ammo - one round at a time.


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

Nevada said:


> *Motor vehicles do society a lot more good than guns do. *
> Nobody is going to argue that fire, police and ambulance vehicles are a good thing.
> It's also a good thing to be able to use a motor vehicle to get to work, or to get to thanksgiving dinner.


*************************************
I don't recall that the early Pilgrims and settlers of this nation,
driving on down to their local Piggly-Wiggly or Winn Dixie store 
to buy all the 'fixins' for their first Thanksgiving dinner.....

but then, you knew that already didn't you?

I'm sure that you meant to say......our *"MODERN"* society....right?

You don't think modern man has just as much (if not more) need to protect themselves from *(fill in the blank yourself.)


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## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

Nevada said:


> I'm not sure what the answer is, but when over 30,000 Americans die each year from gun violence


and much of the time they deserve it.


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## Molly Mckee (Jul 8, 2006)

I'm sure all the criminals will hand over their guns when someone asks, very happily.

As for our guns, there was that boating accident...........................


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## ninny (Dec 12, 2005)

Nevada said:


> I'm not sure what the answer is, but when over 30,000 Americans die each year from gun violence we should be looking for an answer.


In 2010, the Inspector General for DHHS said that more than 180,000 people (that's 6 times as many that died from gun violence) in MEDICARE died from medical mistakes. Shall we ban medical practitioners? What is the answer for this, the ACCA?

.


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

Apologies, I didn't read a single reply but just wanted to say: Clowns like this is EXACTLY why the general populous should be armed!

Wade


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

ninny said:


> In 2010, the Inspector General for DHHS said that more than 180,000 people (that's 6 times as many that died from gun violence) in MEDICARE died from medical mistakes. Shall we ban medical practitioners? What is the answer for this, the ACCA?
> 
> .


The answer to curbing medical mistakes is very different from curbing gun violence. For medical mistakes, Medicare forces providers pay for care for hospital acquired conditions. In other words, instead of being paid to care for their own mistakes, it comes out of their profits. We'll see how that policy changes those statistics.


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## kasilofhome (Feb 10, 2005)

Nevada said:


> Motor vehicles do society a lot more good than guns do. Nobody is going to argue that fire, police and ambulance vehicles are a good thing. It's also a good thing to be able to use a motor vehicle to get to work, or to get to thanksgiving dinner.





I find eating helps people, some of the first prep items require the shooting of a gun.


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

Nevada said:


> The answer to curbing medical mistakes is very different from curbing gun violence. For medical mistakes, Medicare forces providers pay for care for hospital acquired conditions. In other words, instead of being paid to care for their own mistakes, it comes out of their profits. We'll see how that policy changes those statistics.


:huh:

If they're dead, their medical care ain't costing anybody much..

I don't see how your statement ties to the valid statistic previously given.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Nevada said:


> I'm not sure what the answer is, but when over 30,000 Americans die each year from gun violence we should be looking for an answer.


How about the people committing these crimes pay a very hefty price. :hammer:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

partndn said:


> :huh:
> 
> If they're dead, their medical care ain't costing anybody much..
> 
> I don't see how your statement ties to the valid statistic previously given.


The idea is that they'll be more careful to not make medical mistakes. You don't think that will prevent people from dying from medical mistakes?


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

no really said:


> How about the people committing these crimes pay a very hefty price. :hammer:


More people are sent to prison for longer sentences that any country on earth. In fact, about 25% of the world's prison population is in the USA. They pay a higher price for their crimes than anyone in the world. One thing's for sure, harsher punishments aren't working.


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## partndn (Jun 18, 2009)

Nevada said:


> More people are sent to prison for longer sentences that any country on earth. In fact, about 25% of the world's prison population is in the USA. They pay a higher price for their crimes than anyone in the world. One thing's for sure, harsher punishments aren't working.


You've missed the point again. Doesn't matter, there's not a logical discussion that will suffice for you.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

partndn said:


> You've missed the point again. Doesn't matter, there's not a logical discussion that will suffice for you.


Yep, could see that one coming a mile away. :drum:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

partndn said:


> You've missed the point again. Doesn't matter, there's not a logical discussion that will suffice for you.


Interesting thing about conservative solutions, they seem to make logical sense but don't work. It's like trickle-down economics, it makes sense to you but never works. It's a continuing stream of logical fallacies.

* If more people have guns then gun violence will be curbed because criminals will be afraid everyone is armed.
* We can end teen pregnancy with ignorance because they'll never figure it out on their own (never mind that dogs figure it out).
* If we end welfare then we won't have any poor because they'll all go out and get jobs.

Why don't we get back on the topic of guns?


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Interesting thing about conservative solutions, they seem to make logical sense but don't work. It's like trickle-down economics, it makes sense to you but never works. It's a continuing stream of logical fallacies.
> 
> * If more people have guns then gun violence will be curbed because criminals will be afraid everyone is armed.
> * We can end teen pregnancy with ignorance because they'll never figure it out on their own (never mind that dogs figure it out).
> ...


Not much to talk about Nevada. This clown is just another of Obama's " Al Sharpton" mouthpieces -stiring up trouble. Just ignore it.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Nevada said:


> I'm not sure what the answer is, but when over 30,000 Americans die each year from gun violence we should be looking for an answer.


A lot more people die on the highways, yet vehicles are still legal. 

Even more die from lung mouth and throat cancer, but cigarettes are still legal.

Alcohol gets a ton of people killed, but the government still likes to sell it, and keeps it legal... 

30K deaths from guns is a weak argument to outlaw them..


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

Nevada said:


> More people are sent to prison for longer sentences that any country on earth. In fact, about 25% of the world's prison population is in the USA. They pay a higher price for their crimes than anyone in the world. One thing's for sure, harsher punishments aren't working.


 .............We would need fewer prisons if home owners used their guns more effectively on thiefs and murders ! If someone breaks down your door are you going to hide in the closet or use your pistol for the purpose for which it was designed ? , fordy


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## M5farm (Jan 14, 2014)

Nevada said:


> I own a gun. In fact I own a handgun.


just one???????


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## ninny (Dec 12, 2005)

Nevada said:


> The idea is that they'll be more careful to not make medical mistakes. You don't think that will prevent people from dying from medical mistakes?


So what you're saying is that we have a bunch of careless medical practitioners that really shouldn't be in the business? I'm sure that there a bunch of people in the medical field that would strongly disagree about cost being a factor in the deaths of so many people.

.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

M5farm said:


> just one???????


I had the same thought... I have a hard time in the mornings trying to decide which one I want to accessorize with for the day... :thumb:


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

ninny said:


> So what you're saying is that we have a bunch of careless medical practitioners that really shouldn't be in the business? I'm sure that there a bunch of people in the medical field that would strongly disagree about cost being a factor in the deaths of so many people.
> 
> .


This isn't my idea. LOL

This is part of the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005.

http://www.cms.gov/Medicare/Medicar...alacqcond/06_hospital-acquired_conditions.asp

This is Bush-era legislation, and only passed the senate with a tie-breaking vote by Dick Cheney.


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## susieneddy (Sep 2, 2011)




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## StL.Ed (Mar 6, 2011)

Nevada said:


> I'm not sure what the answer is, but when over 30,000 Americans die each year from gun violence we should be looking for an answer.


"30,000 Americans die each year from gun violence" is rather misleading. Nearly two thirds of those deaths are suicide. Banning guns will not likely prevent suicide, as shown by Japan, which has a suicide rate roughly twice the United states. Alternate forms of suicide, such as walking in front of traffic or trains, or running a car in a enclosed space, is more likely to kill other people as well.

Maybe allowing suicide by drugs will reduce the "gun violence", but most people won't like that solution.


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## bigjon (Oct 2, 2013)

hmmm,ban guns? medical mistakes? hmmm,maybe my sil should have shot the 3 men she killed(2 husbands-her own dad)rather than poison them with antifreeze.better ban antifreeze............:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

bigjon said:


> hmmm,ban guns? medical mistakes? hmmm,maybe my sil should have shot the 3 men she killed(2 husbands-her own dad)rather than poison them with antifreeze.better ban antifreeze............:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:


Dude! They already did that! Well, not exactly. But they did take out the goody's so ya can't get rid of that useless neighbors dog so easy. Just saying!

Wade


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

partndn said:


> :huh:
> 
> If they're dead, their medical care ain't costing anybody much..
> 
> *I don't see how your statement ties to the valid statistic previously given.*


*************************************
way that he normally handles 'difficult' questions......

He changes the subject and just keeps on going.










A lot of noise......which makes a few think that he's saying 
something *REALLY* significant, but most of us know otherwise.


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## TnAndy (Sep 15, 2005)

The argument, and the statistics, are pointless. 

There are 300 million or so firearms in private hands. If the govt can't figure out how to send 10 million or so illegals home, they have no chance in hades of every 'coming for' 300 million guns. If only 1% of those guns are turned on those 'coming', there won't be enough left to fill those job vacancies.

Really want to do something about gun violence ? Legalize all drugs. Take away the profit incentive, and much of the gun related gang violence would simply melt away from lack of those profits, and you'd cut the prison 'industry' in half as well. Seems we learned nothing from alcohol prohibition.


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## Peggy (Feb 14, 2010)

I wonder how Gerald Ensley plans on getting firearms away from criminals!!! Criminals, after all, don't care about laws.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

Nevada said:


> Interesting thing about conservative solutions, they seem to make logical sense but don't work. It's like trickle-down economics, it makes sense to you but never works. It's a continuing stream of logical fallacies.
> 
> * If more people have guns then gun violence will be curbed because criminals will be afraid everyone is armed.
> * We can end teen pregnancy with ignorance because they'll never figure it out on their own (never mind that dogs figure it out).
> ...


As usual you are looking at a tree but can't see the forest. The problem is not guns. The problem is murder and murder happens everywhere in the world. Scroll down on the link at look at the murder numbers for the 6 regions of the world. In the Americas, guns are the murder weapon of choice but other regions dwarf our numbers of murders by knives and poison. If someone wants to murder me, I prefer being shot over stabbed or poisoned. The point is, people kill people by whatever means available and taking guns will only make them choose other, and likely more painful means. Execute the murderers quickly and we'll have fewer of them.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/health/141125/charts-global-gun-violence-ferguson


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I'm not sure what the answer is, but when over 30,000 Americans die each year from gun violence we should be looking for an answer.


More folks are killed by doctors than guns....what to do about that? 

Remember, the 2nd amendment is a natural right. Show me where driving a car or going to the doctor is a Constitutional right?

Maybe assisted suicide is a better answer, because a huge part of your number is just that!

What is your solution?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> The idea is that they'll be more careful to not make medical mistakes. You don't think that will prevent people from dying from medical mistakes?


Nothing has prevented it so far!


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Nevada said:


> I'm not sure what the answer is, but when over 30,000 Americans die each year from gun violence we should be looking for an answer.


 The answer is better thug control. When the prisons get overcrowded build more prisons with farming capability and maybe gravel making operations where the inmates make pea sized gravel out of big rocks instead of early release . Use trusty labor where feasible to reduce overhead and tell the NIMBYs tough luck, the cages have to go somewhere.


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## itsb (Jan 13, 2013)

Nevada said:


> I'm not sure what the answer is, but when over 30,000 Americans die each year from gun violence we should be looking for an answer.


take away suisides then take away the ones that should be shot :sing:

don't take my car,I need it to go get more guns and bullets :cute:


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## BlackFeather (Jun 17, 2014)

poppy said:


> As usual you are looking at a tree but can't see the forest. The problem is not guns. The problem is murder and murder happens everywhere in the world. Scroll down on the link at look at the murder numbers for the 6 regions of the world. In the Americas, guns are the murder weapon of choice but other regions dwarf our numbers of murders by knives and poison. If someone wants to murder me, I prefer being shot over stabbed or poisoned. The point is, people kill people by whatever means available and taking guns will only make them choose other, and likely more painful means. Execute the murderers quickly and we'll have fewer of them.
> 
> http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/health/141125/charts-global-gun-violence-ferguson


Amen, they banned guns in Britain and murders still occurred by stabbings and beatings instead, if someone wants to kill they will find a way, guns are currently the more preferable way of doing it. In Roman times it was a sword, and if I remember didn't Christ tell his disciples to buy one, after all the roads were full of thieves in those days. In the future, a Star Wars blaster or light saber might be the preferred way. You have to change people, not the tools they use. It is like blaming the pen for swear words written on paper. Oh $#*# ( That was the keyboards fault not mine.)


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

BlackFeather said:


> Amen, they banned guns in Britain and murders still occurred by stabbings and beatings instead, if someone wants to kill they will find a way, guns are currently the more preferable way of doing it. In Roman times it was a sword, and if I remember didn't Christ tell his disciples to buy one, after all the roads were full of thieves in those days. In the future, a Star Wars blaster or light saber might be the preferred way. You have to change people, not the tools they use. It is like blaming the pen for swear words written on paper. Oh $#*# ( That was the keyboards fault not mine.)



LOL ! That's a good one Blackfeather !!! Where is the moderators!!!! Leave us alone when we go off on someone!!! Just "ban" out keyboard!!!! Hello? Moderator?? Hello?

That was fun! But really now,See if you can find a scripture ref: buying a sword. I don't remember reading that. Curious! 
Thanks,

Wade


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## dizzy (Jun 25, 2013)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0509806/quotes


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

This is a post I made back in May. You should go back and read the entire thread. If you do you will find that what I stated about Kennasaw was confirmed by another member with personal experience. This thread shouldn't have to happen. The proof is already in.

Please read and enjoy.

Wade 



#11 Report Post 
Old 05/29/14, 11:33 AM
1shotwade 1shotwade is online now

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: southern hills of indiana
Posts: 1,805
I admit I didn't take the time to read all the replies,but need to throw this out there.The government has managed to lie to us on about every occation and people no longer trust them.There is a wave of people that are convinced the country is going down hill fast. If a person feels this way,how could you expect them to agree with the "just 1 more little law so we can track you gun" thing.We are always getting lied to! "you will never see the day when you get pulled over for not wearing a seat belt" "there's WMD's in Iraq " "Oswald did all the shooting" (even though the pro's can't do it today).There's plenty more.
another point,The second amendment wasn't written to address gun control. It was whoever written to establish a "second barrier" of security for the country to detour "enemies both foreign and domestic". It was intended to allow ALL citizens to have the ability to fight off "enemies" of our country.We lost our second amendment rights long ago and actually,it should have been considered "Treason" because is lessens the countries ability to defend it's self!
(so I have heard) during WWII a Japanese Officer was assigned to make a plan to take the USA. He reported that all of the major cities could be take within a 3 month period.But,he also reported that to take control of the entire country would take decades.When questioned about this he stated that "once you get away from the cities there is a gun behind every blade of grass". They did not invade! The detour-ant works! 
Take the time to google kennasaw GA gun control and you will see that they had to lay off half the police force within a year when they passed an ordnance that all property owners had to register a weapon . It works,the bad guys didn't like the odds anymore and went to work in other places.

Our gun rights are actually part of "the right to life,liberty,and the pursuit of happiness" . Individual gun ownership was never addressed in the way we think of it today because it was a foregone conclusion that everyone had a gun. That's how the got their food. It was no different than owning an ax ot saw or drill. It was a tool.There was no need to address it!
The 1920-30 are known as "the era of the gentleman". This is because people treated other people with respect. The reason they did that is because it was the introduction of the .25 and .32 "pocket guns" to the general public. You start something with someone and they could just reach into their pocket and end your reign of terror.
I got a lot more to say on this topic but this is way too long now anyway!


Wade


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## sniper69 (Sep 23, 2007)

1shotwade said:


> LOL ! That's a good one Blackfeather !!! Where is the moderators!!!! Leave us alone when we go off on someone!!! Just "ban" out keyboard!!!! Hello? Moderator?? Hello?
> 
> That was fun! But really now,See if you can find a scripture ref: buying a sword. I don't remember reading that. Curious!
> Thanks,
> ...


Maybe the reference is to Luke 22:36. 


Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


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## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

Shrek said:


> The answer is better thug control. When the prisons get overcrowded build more prisons with farming capability and maybe gravel making operations where the inmates make pea sized gravel out of big rocks instead of early release . Use trusty labor where feasible to reduce overhead and tell the NIMBYs tough luck, the cages have to go somewhere.


 My friend many years ago had the thought on this. He said if the prison holds 500 number everyone 1- 500 when a bus load of 20 new ones show up execute 1 -20 and move everybody up in line .


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

sniper69 said:


> Maybe the reference is to Luke 22:36.
> 
> 
> Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


Thanks! A few days from now I wouldn't have ask that question as I am currently reading Mark chapter 10 ! 

Wade


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I'm not sure what the answer is, but when over 30,000 Americans die each year from gun violence we should be looking for an answer.


Now many were in self defense?
How many die on highways? Not sure why we haven't banned cars...


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

1shotwade said:


> Apologies, I didn't read a single reply but just wanted to say: Clowns like this is EXACTLY why the general populous should be armed!
> 
> Wade


Post of the day award.


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## dizzy (Jun 25, 2013)

I do not recall now where I read this, but I recall reading that one reason Nazi Germany was able to take France was because the average man was not allowed to own a gun. So, they were basically just able to walk into the country w/almost no resistance.

Look at what's going on in Ferguson. How many of those that are doing the looting and burning are using a gun? If someone is determined to follow a path of violence and destruction, they'll do so. Banning guns will not change that fact, it will just change how it's done. And, it makes it almost impossible for the average citizen to stand up against them.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Nevada said:


> The idea is that they'll be more careful to not make medical mistakes. You don't think that will prevent people from dying from medical mistakes?


So, you think they aren't careful now? You think fines & pressure & threats will make them more careful?


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

fordy said:


> .............We would need fewer prisons if home owners used their guns more effectively on thiefs and murders ! If someone breaks down your door are you going to hide in the closet or use your pistol for the purpose for which it was designed ? , fordy


Post of the day award.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

TnAndy said:


> The argument, and the statistics, are pointless.
> 
> There are 300 million or so firearms in private hands. If the govt can't figure out how to send 10 million or so illegals home, they have no chance in hades of every 'coming for' 300 million guns. If only 1% of those guns are turned on those 'coming', there won't be enough left to fill those job vacancies.
> 
> Really want to do something about gun violence ? Legalize all drugs. Take away the profit incentive, and much of the gun related gang violence would simply melt away from lack of those profits, and you'd cut the prison 'industry' in half as well. Seems we learned nothing from alcohol prohibition.


Funny thing is, those guns aren't "Undocumented"!


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## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

JeffreyD said:


> More folks are killed by doctors than guns....what to do about that?
> 
> Remember, the 2nd amendment is a natural right. Show me where driving a car or going to the doctor is a Constitutional right?
> 
> ...


The founding fathers believed all actions were natural rights until the government takes the right away. None of our rights come from the government. The second amendment does not bestow any right on us it mearly says the govenment will not infringe on our right.

Jim


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## k9 (Feb 6, 2008)

In 2013 over 200 children drown in swimming pools or spas, we need to outlaw swimming pools and spas, nobody really needs them. If we can save just one child isn't it worth it?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I don't have time to read this whole fiasco now but;
1st amendment guarantees freedom of speech. So even though the man is an idiot (2nd amendment repealer wannabe) he has a legal right to be stupid. Just like the funeral protesters had a right to be total jerks. So I don't know why everyone wants to burn Nevada in effigy just because he is pointing out the obvious.

Instead we need to point out the obvious to the 2nd A repealer wannabe, even if there was a total gun ban, LAW ENFORCEMENT AND MILITARY WOULD STILL HAVE GUNS!!!!! Only an idiot would ignore that obvious point. So Brown would still be dead and Wilson would still have shot him. No gun ban would have changed that fact. And no gun ban would ever prevent another police shooting of an unarmed citizen.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

...........No one on HT uses their 2nd. Amendment rights more than I do ! , lol , fordy:drum:


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Jim Bunton said:


> The founding fathers believed all actions were natural rights until the government takes the right away. None of our rights come from the government. The second amendment does not bestow any right on us it mearly says the govenment will not infringe on our right.
> 
> Jim


Which is a natural right!


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

Jim Bunton said:


> The founding fathers believed all actions
> were natural rights*
> until the government takes the right away. *
> None of our rights come from the government. The second amendment
> ...





JeffreyD said:


> *Which is a natural right!*


*************************************
can be found in the 7 word phrase embolden and underlined above.

Sometimes......if we truly value our 'natural' rights enough, 
we have to be willing to fight those who have chiseled them away, 
in order to maintain them. Or we risk loosing them permanently.


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## doingitmyself (Jul 30, 2013)

Nevada said:


> I'm not sure what the answer is, but when over 30,000 Americans die each year from gun violence we should be looking for an answer.


Guns are not violent, they are an inert machine. People that use them for illegal uses are violent, might as well get rid of all people using your logic. Funny how certain groups of people that would like to disarm the American public say that guns that are violent.

Its the gangs that are in fact now the drug cartels store front. Deal with the gang component and the as you say "gun violence" goes away. The gangs won't be effectively dealt with because the mayors, police commanders, all higher authorities are all paid off by the cartels, Everyone knows it so why try to sell a mute point.


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## Eagle-eye (Sep 16, 2014)

They will never get mine while I live. Some things are worth fighting and dying for. My basic rights as a human being are one of them.


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Nevada said:


> I'm not sure what the answer is, but when over 30,000 Americans die each year from gun violence we should be looking for an answer.


I say we start with these, 

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
*"Number of deaths for leading causes of death:*



Heart disease: 596,577
Cancer: 576,691
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 142,943
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,932
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 126,438
Alzheimer's disease: 84,974
Diabetes: 73,831
Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,826
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 45,591
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 39,518 "
Rather then the grid lock of Gun Control.

Living in Mi, We are a Hunting State, Not all Schools Close for the first week of Deer Season but many still do. 

Whats this have to do with Guns and Gun Control, Many of us have a Healthy Respect for Guns and view them as what they are Intended for Self preservation. Be it Food procurement or Self Defense.

Perhaps rather then Ban Guns maybe Children Should be taught Gun Safty and a respect of them.

Most home in Switzerland have Military Grade weapons, They do not have Gun Issues? 

Whats the difference? 

Maybe if you pin that down you have a starting point for fixing it here, though I already gave you a good starting point.

I can think of half a dozen things that are different. 

I'll let you think on it though, things are so much more appreciated when you do it on your own.

I'm not picking on you either Nevada, just found that statement so far off for a valid reason when there are so many other thing that could be addressed at the Government level that would prevent and promote life rather then give the Impression that "we are working on it" and really the exact opposite.


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## Eagle-eye (Sep 16, 2014)

Hammers kill more people every year than guns. FACT.


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## ninny (Dec 12, 2005)

Eagle-eye said:


> Hammers kill more people every year than guns. FACT.


My hammers or my guns haven't killed anyone...but the day isn't over yet...


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Eagle-eye said:


> Hammers kill more people every year than guns. FACT.


No, that is not true. The FBI claims that in 2011 more people were killed with blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.) than with rifles, which is true, but that doesn't include handguns. Many more people were killed with handguns than with blunt objects. There are also other types of guns that aren't included in either rifles or handguns.

Here's the FBI breakdown from that report.









http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ok-post-says-more-people-were-murdered-knive/


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## Eagle-eye (Sep 16, 2014)

Nevada said:


> No, that is not true. The FBI claims that in 2011 more people were killed with blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.) than with rifles, which is true, but that doesn't include handguns. Many more people were killed with handguns than with blunt objects. There are also other types of guns that aren't included in either rifles or handguns.
> 
> Here's the FBI breakdown from that report.


Yes and many of those were in self defense or defense of loved ones or property. The FBI does not have statistics on how many LAW ABIDING people WOULD HAVE been killed or will be killed, without guns. Nor can they demonstrate how many crimes are averted simply by the presence of a gun in the hands of a law abiding citizen. But we know the numbers are impressive.


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## unregistered168043 (Sep 9, 2011)

I'm with EE on this one. Funny, Nevada's chart shows rifles, which include the dreaded "assault rifle" as killing fewer people than hammers and feet. Yet the nonstop leftwing media diatribe about "assault rifles". Whats the real issue here because its clearly not about safety.Guns are bad and dangerous so how come when ever we see Obama he is surrounded by men with guns to protect him?


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## copperkid3 (Mar 18, 2005)

Nevada said:


> No, that is not true. The FBI claims that in 2011 more people were killed with blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.) than with rifles, which is true, but that doesn't include handguns. Many more people were killed with handguns than with blunt objects. There are also other types of guns that aren't included in either rifles or handguns.
> 
> Here's the FBI breakdown from that report.
> 
> ...



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
blowguns or Napoleonic cannons either......:facepalm::drum:

Surely somebody must have been killed by one or the other.....or (horrors) BOTH?!!!


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## Lookin4GoodLife (Oct 14, 2013)

Nevada said:


> More people are sent to prison for longer sentences that any country on earth. In fact, about 25% of the world's prison population is in the USA. They pay a higher price for their crimes than anyone in the world. One thing's for sure, harsher punishments aren't working.


You call having TV's, weight rooms, internet service, medical care WAY beyond practical and reasonable, etc, etc, etc harsher punishments? People like Manson given time on TV and that guy with his own radio show from prison? How about we start executing folks left and right? I'm not talking about circumstantial cases or cases where there is an "if". I'm talking about people who were caught red-handed, tons of witnesses, "yeah I did it and I'd do it again" cold hearted SOB's. People who will NEVER make a contribution to society. Execute those dirtbags right QUICK and send the rest of them back to PRISON, not their COUNTRY CLUBS. And please don't start with the human rights, rehabilitation, blah, blah, blah stuff.


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## Lookin4GoodLife (Oct 14, 2013)

doingitmyself said:


> Deal with the gang component and the as you say "gun violence" goes away.


"Against all enemies, foreign and domestic....." Maybe we should just charge Oathkeepers to start popping gang members in defense of our Constitution.


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## Lookin4GoodLife (Oct 14, 2013)

copperkid3 said:


> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> blowguns or Napoleonic cannons either......:facepalm::drum:
> 
> Surely somebody must have been killed by one or the other.....or (horrors) BOTH?!!!


Those fall under "other". That was funny right there.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

Nevada said:


> No, that is not true. The FBI claims that in 2011 more people were killed with blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.) than with rifles, which is true, but that doesn't include handguns. Many more people were killed with handguns than with blunt objects. There are also other types of guns that aren't included in either rifles or handguns.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The number listed for firearm deaths does not add up to 30,000. Must be that new math.

Look how well gun control worked for the Nazi's and the Communists. A very politically successful program.


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## V-NH (Jan 1, 2014)

Jim Bunton said:


> The founding fathers believed all actions were natural rights until the government takes the right away. None of our rights come from the government. The second amendment does not bestow any right on us it mearly says the govenment will not infringe on our right.
> 
> Jim


That's highly debatable. A good number of our founding fathers were against the idea of even including individual rights in our Constitution. Alexander Hamilton for the reason you mentioned above, others because the rights of the common man simply were not a priority for them. From a Lockean (and consequently Jeffersonian) perspective, natural rights are the right to life, liberty, and property. We give up the freedom to do whatever we want in order to have those three essential rights preserved by a government.

Some of the same people who played a major role in the construction of our country also saw a need for a fluid constitution. Jefferson himself made mention of the idea that every generation should reshape the Constitution to fit the new realities of life. I'm a big fan of our Constitution and a staunch defender of the second amendment, but I think it is risky to start throwing our founding fathers around as authorities on the matter given that you can easily craft an argument stating that some of them didn't expect the 1787 document to be around in 2014 and that some others only agreed to include a Bill of Rights at all to placate the common people, rather than out of any sort of true commitment to liberty. You would be better off just citing one specific founding father since very few of them really agreed on anything at all


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## dizzy (Jun 25, 2013)

728 were killed w/personal weapons, hands, fists, feet, etc. Maybe we should do away w/them. Then another 1694 were killed w/knives. Just heard of someone being killed w/a kitchen knife. Maybe we should do away w/them as well. And let's not forget those that were killed w/blunt objects. Guess they need to be outlawed as well. After all, we all know how those knives, baseball bats, wrenches, etc are just sitting there, waiting for someone to get close enough to kill them.


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## Jim Bunton (Mar 16, 2004)

V-NH said:


> That's highly debatable. A good number of our founding fathers were against the idea of even including individual rights in our Constitution. Alexander Hamilton for the reason you mentioned above, others because the rights of the common man simply were not a priority for them. From a Lockean (and consequently Jeffersonian) perspective, natural rights are the right to life, liberty, and property. We give up the freedom to do whatever we want in order to have those three essential rights preserved by a government.
> 
> Some of the same people who played a major role in the construction of our country also saw a need for a fluid constitution. Jefferson himself made mention of the idea that every generation should reshape the Constitution to fit the new realities of life. I'm a big fan of our Constitution and a staunch defender of the second amendment, but I think it is risky to start throwing our founding fathers around as authorities on the matter given that you can easily craft an argument stating that some of them didn't expect the 1787 document to be around in 2014 and that some others only agreed to include a Bill of Rights at all to placate the common people, rather than out of any sort of true commitment to liberty. You would be better off just citing one specific founding father since very few of them really agreed on anything at all


As a whole they decided that all rights were natural rights. The document they as a whole came up with reflected this belief. Some rights they felt were important enough to highlight and add further protection to. You are right to say many did not agree with the addition of the bill of rights, but We the People that they received their power from demanded them or there would have been no constitution. 
Jim


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## sniper69 (Sep 23, 2007)

This is a good read now, as it was when I first read it.

Sundown at Coffin Rock
by Raymond K. Paden
The old man walked slowly through the dry, fallen leaves of autumn, his practiced eye automatically choosing the bare and stony places in the trail for his feet. There was scarcely a sound as he passed, though his left knee was stiff with scar tissue. He grunted occasionally as the tight sinews pulled. ---- chainsaw, he thought.
Behind him, the boy shuffled along, trying to imitate his grandfather, but unable to mimic the silent motion that the old man had learned during countless winter days upon this wooded mountain in pursuit of game. He's fifteen years old, the old man thought. Plenty old enough to be learning. But that was another time, another America. His mind drifted, and he saw himself, a fifteen-year-old boy following in the footsteps of his own grandfather, clutching a twelve gauge in his trembling hands as they tracked a wounded whitetail.
The leg was hurting worse now, and he slowed his pace a bit. Plenty of time. It should have been my own son here with me now, the old man thought sadly. But Jason had no interest, no understanding. He cared for nothing but pounding on the keys of that damned computer terminal. He knew nothing about the woods, or where food came from...or freedom. And that's my fault, isn't it?
The old man stopped and held up his hand, motioning for the boy to look. In the small clearing ahead, the deer stood motionless, watching them. It was a scraggly buck, underfed and sickly, but the boy's eyes lit up with excitement. It had been many years since they had seen even a single whitetail here on the mountain. After the hunting had stopped, the population had exploded. The deer had eaten the mountain almost bare until erosion had become a serious problem in some places. That following winter, three starving does had wandered into the old man's yard, trying to eat the bark off of his pecan trees, and he had wished the "animal rights" fanatics could have been there then. It was against the law, but old man knew a higher law, and he took an axe into the yard and killed the starving beasts. They did not have the strength to run.
The buck finally turned and loped away, and they continued down the trail to the river. When they came to the "Big Oak," the old man turned and pushed through the heavy brush beside the trail and the boy followed, wordlessly. The old man knew that Thomas was curious about their leaving the trail, but the boy had learned to move silently (well, almost) and that meant no talking. When they came to "Coffin Rock," the old man sat down upon it and motioned for the boy to join him.
"You see this rock, shaped like a casket?" the old man asked. "Yes sir." The old man smiled. The boy was respectful and polite. He loved the outdoors, too. Everything a man could ask in a grandson ...or a son.
"I want you to remember this place, and what I'm about to tell you. A lot of it isn't going to make any sense to you, but it's important and one day you'll understand it well enough. The old man paused. Now that he was here, he didn't really know where to start.
"Before you were born," he began at last, "this country was different.
I've told you about hunting, about how everybody who obeyed the law could own guns. A man could speak out, anywhere, without worrying about whether he'd get back home or not. School was different, too. A man could send his kids to a church school, or a private school, or even teach them at home. But even in the public schools, they didn't spend all their time trying to brainwash you like they do at yours now." The old man paused, and was silent for many minutes. The boy was still, watching a chipmunk scavenging beside a fallen tree below them.
"Things don't ever happen all at once, boy. They just sort of sneak up on you. Sure, we knew guns were important; we just didn't think it would ever happen in America. But we had to do something about crime, they said. It was a crisis. Everything was a crisis! It was a drug crisis, or a terrorism crisis, or street crime, or gang crime. Even a 'health care' crisis was an excuse to take away a little more of our rights." The old man turned to look at his grandson.
"They ever let you read a thing called the Constitution down there at your school?" The boy solemnly shook his head. "Well, the Fourth Amendment's still in there. It says there won't be any unreasonable searches and seizures. It says you're safe in your own home." The old man shrugged. "That had to go. It was a crisis! They could kick your door open any time, day or night, and come in with guns blazing if they thought you had drugs ...or later, guns. Oh, at first it was just registration -- to keep the guns out of the hands of criminals! But that didn't work, of course, and then later when they wanted to take 'em they knew where to look. They banned 'assault rifles', and then 'sniper rifles', and 'Saturday night specials.' Everything you saw on the TV or in the movies was against us. God knows the news people were! And the schools were teaching our kids that nobody needed guns anymore. We tried to take a stand, but we felt like the whole face of our country had changed and we were left outside."
"Me and a friend of mine, when we saw what was happening, we came and built a secret place up here on the mountain. A place where we could put our guns until we needed them. We figured some day Americans would remember what it was like to be free, and what kind of price we had to pay for that freedom. So we hid our guns instead of losing them."
"One fellow I knew disagreed. He said we ought to use our guns now and stand up to the government. Said that the colonists had fought for their freedom when the British tried to disarm them at Lexington and Concord. Well, he and a lot of others died in what your history books call the 'Tax Revolt of 1998,' but son, it wasn't the revolt that caused the repeal of the Second Amendment like your history book says. The Second Amendment was already gone long before they ever repealed it. The rest of us thought we were doing the right thing by waiting. I hope to God we were right."
"You see, Thomas. It isn't government that makes a man free. In the end, governments always do just the opposite. They gobble up freedom like hungry pigs. You have to have laws to keep the worst in men under control, but at the same time the people have to have guns, too, in order to keep the government itself under control. In our country, the people were supposed to be the final authority of the law, but that was a long time ago. Once the guns were gone, there was no reason for those who run the government to give a ---- about laws and constitutional rights and such. They just did what they pleased and anyone who spoke out...well, I'm getting ahead of myself."
"It took a long time to collect up all the millions of firearms that were
in private hands. The government created a whole new agency to see to it. There were rewards for turning your friends in, too. Drug dealers and murderers were set free after two or three years in prison, but possession of a gun would get you mandatory life behind bars with no parole.
"I don't know how they found out about me, probably knew I'd been a hunter all those years, or maybe somebody turned me in. They picked me up on suspicion and took me down to the federal building."
"Son, those guys did everything they could think of to me. Kept me locked up in this little room for hours, no food, no water. They kept coming in, asking me where the guns were. 'What guns?' I said. Whenever I'd doze off, they'd come crashing in, yelling and hollering. I got to where I didn't know which end was up. I'd say I wanted my lawyer and they'd laugh. 'Lawyers are for criminals', they said. 'You'll get a lawyer after we get the guns.' What's so funny is, I know they thought they were doing the right thing. They were fighting crime!"
"When I got home I found Ruth sitting in the middle of the living room
floor, crying her eyes out. The house was a shambles. While I was down there, they'd come out and took our house apart. Didn't need a search warrant, they said. National emergency! Gun crisis! Your grandma tried to call our preacher and they ripped the phone off the wall. Told her that they'd go easy on me if she just told them where I kept my guns." The old man laughed. "She told them to go to hell." He stared into the distance for a moment as his laughter faded.
"They wouldn't tell her about me, where I was or anything, that whole time. She said that she'd thought I was dead. She never got over that day, and she died the next December."
"They've been watching me ever since, off and on. I guess there's not much for them to do anymore, now that all the guns are gone. Plenty of time to watch one foolish old man." He paused. Beside him, the boy stared at the stone beneath his feet.
"Anyway, I figure that, one day, America will come to her senses. Our men will need those guns and they'll be ready. We cleaned them and sealed them up good; they'll last for years. Maybe it won't be in your lifetime, Thomas. Maybe one day you'll be sitting here with your son or grandson. Tell him about me, boy. Tell him about the way I said America used to be." The old man stood, his bad leg shaking unsteadily beneath him.
"You see the way this stone points? You follow that line one hundred feet down the hill and you'll find a big round rock. It looks like it's buried solid, but one man with a good pry bar can lift it, and there's a concrete tunnel right under there that goes back into the hill."
The old man stood, watching as the sun eased toward the ridge, coloring the sky and the world red. Below them, the river still splashed among the stones, as it had for a million years. It's still going, the old man thought. There'll be someone left to carry on for me when I'm gone. It was harder to walk back. He felt old and purposeless now, and it would be easier, he knew, to give in to that aching heaviness in his left lung that had begun to trouble him more and more. ---- cigarettes, he thought. His leg hurt, and the boy silently came up beside him and supported him as they started down the last mile toward the house. How quiet he walks, the old man thought. He's learned well.
It was almost dark when the boy walked in. His father looked up from his paper. "Did you and your grand dad have a nice walk?"
"Yes," the boy answered, opening the refrigerator. "You can call Agent
Goodwin tomorrow. Gramps finally showed me where it is."
*********************************************************
Editor's note: "Sundown at Coffin Rock" is a work of fiction. Any similarity to actual events or to actual people, living or dead, REMAINS TO BE SEEN




If you want to read more, look for Sunrise at coffin rock and there is a little more to the story.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Dang sniper, that was depressing.


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## sniper69 (Sep 23, 2007)

bowdonkey said:


> Dang sniper, that was depressing.


Here is part 2 of the story (I wish one site had all of the parts together).

Sunrise at Coffin Rock
* By Raymond K. Paden *

Thomas sat alone upon the cold stone, shivering slightly in the chilly pre-dawn air of this April morning. The flashlight was turned off, resting beside him on the bare granite of Coffin Rock, and involuntarily he strained his eyes in the gray non-light of the false dawn, trying to make out the shapes of the trees, and the mountains across the river. Below, he could hear the chuckling of the water as it crossed the polished stones. How many times had he fished there, his grandfather beside him.


He tried to shrug away the memories, but why else had he come here except to remember. Perhaps to escape the inevitable confrontation with his mother. She would have to be told sooner or later, but Thomas infinitely preferred later.


"Mom, I've been expelled from the university, he said aloud in a conversational tone. Some small night animal, startled by the sudden sound, scurried away to the right. "I know this means you won't get that upgrade to C-3, and they'll probably turn you down for that surgery now. Gee, Mom, I'm sorry." It sounded so stupid. "Why?" she would ask. "How?"


How could he explain that? The endless arguments. The whispered warnings. The subtle threats. Dennis had told him to expect this. Dennis had lost his parents back in the First Purge back in 2004, and his bitter hatred of the State's iron rule had failed to ruin him only because of his unique and accomplished abilities as an actor. Only with Thomas did he open up. Only with Thomas did he relate the things he had earned while in the Youth Reeducation Camp near Charleston. Thomas shuddered.


It was his own fault, he knew. He should have kept his mouth shut like Dennis told him. All of his friends had come and shook his hand and pounded him on the back. "That's telling them, Adams!" they said. But their voices were hushed and they glanced over their shoulders as they congratulated him. And later, when the "volunteers" of the Green Ribbon Squad kicked his ass all over the shower room, they had stood by in nervous silence, their faces turned away, their eyes averted, and their tremulous voices silent.


He sighed. Could he blame them. He'd been afraid too, when the squad walked up and surrounded him, and if he could have taken back those proud words he would have. Anyone is afraid when they can't fight back, he'd discovered. So they taught him a lesson, and he had expected it to end there. But then yesterday had come the call to Dr. Morton's office, and the brief hearing that had ended his career at the university. "Thomas," Morton had intoned, "You owe everything to the State." Thomas snorted.


The light was growing now. He could see the pale, rain-washed granite in the grayness as if it glowed. Coffin Rock was now a knob, a raised promontory that jutted up from a wide, unbroken arm of the mountain's stony roots, its cover of soil pushed away. There were deep gouges scraped across the surface of the rock where the backhoe had tried, vainly, to force the mountain to reveal its secrets. He was too old to cry now, but Thomas Adams closed his eyes tightly as he relived those moments that had forever changed his life.


The shouts and angry accusations as the agents found no secret arms cache still seemed to ring in his ears. They had threatened him with arrest, and once he had thought the government agent named Goodwin wouId actually strike him. At last, though, they had accepted defeat and turned down the mountain, following the gashed trail of the back-hoe as it rumbled ahead through the woods.


At home, he had found his mother and father standing, ashen faced, in the doorway.


"They took your grandpa," his father said in disbelief. "Just after you left, they put him in a van and took him."


"But they said they wouldn't!" Thomas had shouted. He ran across the yard to the old man's cottage. The door was standing open and he wandered from room to room calling for the grandfather he would never see alive again.


It was his heart, they said. Two days after they had taken him, someone called and tersely announced that the old man had died at the indigent clinic a few hours after his arrest. "Sorry," the faceless voice had muttered. Thomas had wept at the funeral, but it was only in later years that he had come to understand the greatest tragedy of that day-that the old man had died alone, knowing that his own grandson had betrayed him.


That grandson was Thomas Adams, and he was now too old to cry but in the growing light of the cold mountain dawn, he did anyway.


Thomas was certain that his father's de-certification six months later was due to the debacle in the forest. As much as anyone did these days, they had "owned" their home, but the Certification Board would still have evicted them except for the intervention of Cousin Lou, who worked for the State Supervisor. As it was, they lost all privileges and, when his father came down with pneumonia the next autumn, medical treatment was denied. He had died three days after the first anniversary of Grandpa's death.


 Thomas had been sure that he would be turned down at the University, but once again his cousin had intervened and a slot had "opened" for him. But now that's finished, he reflected. He would be unable to obtain any certification other than manual laborer. "Why didn't I keep my mouth shut" he asked the morning stillness. In a tree behind him, a mockingbird began to sing its ageless song, and as if in answer, the forest below began to twitter and chirp with the voices of other birds, greeting the new day.


No, what he had said had been the truth and nothing could change that. The State was wrong. It was evil. It was unnatural for men to be slaves of their government, always skulking, always holding their tongues lest they anger The State. But there is no "State," Thomas considered. There are only evil men, holding power over other men. And anyone who speaks out, who dares to challenge that power, is crushed.


If only there was a way to fight back!


Thomas shifted on the stone, hanging his feet off the downhill side. His feet had almost touched the grass that day, but now, although his legs were certainly longer, it was at least ten inches to the scarred rock surface below. As he kicked his heels back and forth, he could almost hear his grandfather speaking to him from long ago...


"One day, America will come to her senses. Our men will need those guns and they'll be ready. We cleaned them and sealed them up good' they'll last for years. Maybe it won't be in your lifetime, Thomas. Maybe one day you'll be sitting here with your son or grandson. Tell him about me, boy. Tell him about the way I said America used to be.


"You see the way this stone points." the old man was saying. "You follow that line one hundred feet..." Thomas' heels were suddenly still. For many minutes he did not move, playing those words over and over in his mind. "...Follow that line..."


What hidden place in his brain had concealed those words all of these years. How could the threats have failed to dislodge it. He stood upon shaky legs and climbed down from Coffin Rock. In his mind's eye, he could see the old man pointing and he walked down the hill and through a clinging briar patch, counting off the paces. The round stone did seem solidly buried, but he scratched around near the base and found that the rock ended just an inch or so beneath the surface. "One man with a good bar can lift it," Grandfather had said. Thomas forced his fingers beneath the stone and, with all the strength in his 21-year-old body, he lifted. The stone came up, and he slid it off to one side. Cool air drifted up from the dark opening in the mountain. Thomas looked to the right where the scars of the State's frustration ended, only 15 or 20 feet away. They had been that close.


He squatted and stared into the darkness and then remembered his flashlight. In a moment, he was back with it, probing into the darkness with the yellow beam. There was a small patch of moisture just inside, but then the tunnel climbed upwards toward the ridge. On hands and knees, he entered.


It was uncomfortably close for the first 20 feet or so, then the cavern opened up around him. The men who had built this place, he saw, had taken a natural crevice in the granite rock, sealed it with masses of poured concrete, and then covered it with earth. The main chamber was bigger than the living room of a house, and they had left an opening up near the peak of the vaulted roof where fresh air and a faint, filtered light entered.


Wooden boxes and crates were stacked everywhere on concrete blocks, up off of the floor, stenciled with legends like, RIFLE, CAL. 30 M1, 9MM PARA, M193 BALL, 7.62 x 39MM, and 5.56MM. He pushed between them and crawled to the wall where he found cardboard boxes wrapped with plastic sheeting. They were imprinted with strange names like CCI, OLIN, WW748, BULLSEYE, and RL 550B.


He did not know what the crates and boxes contained, and was afraid to break the seals, but near the center of the room he found a plastic-wrapped carton labeled "OPEN THIS FIRST." With his penknife, he slit the heavy plastic wrapping.


It contained books, he saw with some disappointment. But he studied the titles and found that they were manuals on weapons and how to repair them, how to clean them, how to fire them, and ammunition... how to store it, and how to reload it. And here was something unusual: A History of the United States. He lifted it from the carton and crawled back to the open air. Leaning against a stone, he tore open the heavy vinyl bag that enclosed the book and began to read at random, flipping the pages every few moments. On each page, something new met his eye, contradicting everything he had ever been taught.


Freedom is not won, he learned, by loud words and declarations.


He remembered a quotation taught at the University: "Blood alone moves the wheels of history." An Italian dictator named Mussolini had said that, but now he read of a man named Patrick C. Henry who said, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Mao was required reading at the University, too, and he now recalled that this man - called a "hero" by The State - had once said, "Political power comes out of the barrel of a gun."


Freedom is never granted, it is won. Won by men who are willing to die, willing to lose everything so that others may have the greatest possession of all: liberty.


Mentally, he began to list those he could trust. Men who had been arrested for speaking out. Women whose husbands had been arrested and never returned. Friends who had been denied certification because of their fathers' military records. The countryside seethed with anger and frustration. These were people who longed to be free, but who had no means to resist... until now.


Thomas laid the book aside and then worked the stone back into position, carefully placing leaves and moss around the base to hide any evidence that it had been disturbed. He tucked the book under his arm and started for home with the rays of the rising sun warming his back. He imagined his grandfather's touch in the heat. A forgiving touch.


A long, hard struggle was coming, and he knew with a certainty that defied explanation that he would not live to see the day America would once again be free. His blood and that of many patriots and tyrants would be spilled, but perhaps America's tree of Liberty would live and flourish again.


There is a long line stretching through the history of this world - a line of those who valued freedom more than their lives. Thomas Adams now took his place at the end of that column as he determined that he would have liberty, or death. He would be in good company.


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## sniper69 (Sep 23, 2007)

And here are the last two parts I can find. I don't know if anything else has been written on it or not.

Here is some more to the story. this was written by someone over at ar15.com

Coffin rock III, "The challenge"

I muttered to myself as I was reading through a journal my grandfather had left in the
collection of old books hidden in the cave. "Gee, how am I going to recruit some of my trusting friends." Frustrated, I tossed the journal onto my dresser. It fluttered about until it landed open, face up, and slid bumping to a stop. I jumped on the bed and tried to sleep.
That night something just seemed to really bother me and I just couldn't sleep.
Tossing and turning, A passage my grandfather wrote in his journal just kept going over
and over through my mind.
It read; For the ambition that you need to gain the strength in numbers, you must read
this parable while viewing yourself in a reflective object. It will help your courage to
fulfill the destiny of a free man.
What did that mean, was he trying to tell us something? I just couldn't sleep.
Around 5:00 AM, I decided to get up and look through that journal for the umteenth
time.
I turned the light on and walked over to pick up the book when to my surprise, in the
mirror, I saw it!
On the back of the book, there was this writing that consisted of some unusual dialog
with an unusual emblem. It was illegable.
But in the mirror, it made sense!
It read; On page 74, there is a picture.
On the top and bottom there are several dots.
These are reference marks to fold it as shown in the diagram below.
I went to that page and followed the instructions. It was amazing! It reminded me of a
picture my grandfather showed me out of an old, antique magazine called Mad. Folding
it morphed it into a picture of the cave. But there was something different about the
cave.
The big triangular rock in the back wasn't there. It was an opening to another cavern!
I got myself together, got a prybar and went back into the cave.
That rock was big, I could bairly move it.
Behind it was a very long tunnel which led into this HUGE cavern.
Inside this cavern, was what looked like some sort of shooting range similar to the one's
I saw in the books. There were many more crates in there as well.
After lighting the room up by painting some illuminus jell in various key locations I
decided I would shoot one of the guns for the first time.
Upon opening one of the crates, I pulled one out that had Bushmaster AR-15 engraved
on its side.
I followed the books directions for cleaning and preparing the gun so I could shoot it.
Entering the cavern, I was shaking like a leaf. I felt a bit sick to my stomach being
nervous about knowing I'm about to go against everything I was ever taught.
Nervously pointing the gun in the direction of the heavy wooden barrier, I pulled the
trigger.
Nothing happened.
Looking at the gun, I noticed the little lever was pointing to safety.
Switching it to fire I tried it again.
BOOM. It was so loud in the cavern that it startled me causing me to drop the gun and
hold my ears.
Why were my ears ringing so loudly. I've never had that happen before. It was scary.
I sat down and just stared at that gun.
Thinking back, I recall one of the books recommending hearing protection, I got some
blue ear muffs in one of the crates that resembled the picture.
I put it on and tried it again.
This time, I was real jittery and it took me 5 minutes to finally pull the trigger.
Thump! Wow, that was much better.
It took awile, but I finally managed to hit inside the circles.
That night, I debated on how I was going to recruit trustworthy people.
I had some friends that I know lost level status.
Jerry seemed very disgruntled about it so I fugured I'll try him first.
I went to work on him the next day.
I invited him over and we went for a walk down a rocky path.
We sat down on a dirt knoll and I began thinking how I was going to discuss it with him.
He broke the silence with "What's wrong?"
"What do you mean?" I replied.
"You look a bit pale, are you alright?"
I became silent and began to cry.
"Well, uh, It's about my grandfather."
"When I was young, I think I made a very bad mistake." "Like what kind of mistake."
Jerry said in a nervous voice.
"Years ago, He told me of some things that was against all we know today."
"He told me we use to have these freedoms that I never knew existed."
"Could you tell me about it?"
"If I do, you can never openly discuss it as it will get us incarcerated for sure."
"Well, I lost my level status so what the heck, I'll give it a listen, you have my word, I'll
keep quiet."
I told him about the constitution and how it guarantied free speech, the right to bear
arms, and how people could profess this thing called religion as well as many other
things we were never taught.
Then I told how I turned him in for not conforming and now I know it was a big mistake.
"I'm responsible for my grandfather's death,
I killed him." "I never should have turned him in."
He laid back on the ground and stared off into space as if to be in a trance.
"Wow, I wish we had the ability to change it back to that."
"It's not your fault, you were just doing what you were taught." 
"What if I told you that it could be a real possibility."
He sat up slowly and looked at me silently for a bit. For a moment there, I could see it
in his eyes. He was a different person for that time, as if to say he would die for this
country. He would die for the freedom of many.
It was then that I knew I made the right choice.


As requested, here's part 4.

As Jerry and I were going through the crates in the newly discovered cavern, we came
across some more paperwork.
"Hey Jerry, look, lets see what this is."
"It doesn't look like any books, just papers." As we were looking through the papers we
came across some that said; The 54th militia freedom fighters. Among this, was a page
that had network membership written on it as well as a list of names.
"Hmmm, I wonder if any of these people are still around." "Well, this is a very old list,
most of these people, if there still alive would be too old to do anything."
"My cousin has class 2 clearance and is a survellance moniter, he has his own security
cubicle at his home."
"The last few times I have been there, he seemed to be alittle laxed on his cubicle
security." "I'll just have to start spending more time visiting him and when he uses the
 bathroom or something, I'll access these names and check." "Are you kidding me Jerry?"
"If he does a log check, then you will never see the light of day!" "Don't worry, he
never does a log check, he won't know we accessed it." "I don't know, it sounds pretty
risky to me."
"Well, let me at least try."
The next two days were un-nerving, I haven't seen or heard from Jerry. Just as I was
about write him off as the first casualty, he arrived. He seemed very excited. "Lets go
for a walk." Which he then grabbed my shirt and about jerked it off of me pulling me out
of the door.
As we got out of view of the house, he began to tell me what was on his mind. "Some
of them are still alive!" "Alright!" I chimed. "Many of them died shortly after they were
incarcerated, but some still reside and one of them is only 20 km away!" "I'm not
finished accessing, so I'll have to go back and finish." "Good, While you were gone, I
read the rest of that paperwork." "There is a map with locations marked on it." "Also,
when we talk to these people, so they know we are for real we have to say this
sentance, Freedom through 54, It's sort of a password I guess." The next day we
devised a plan so we could convince the check points that we had business being in
the area were this man lived. Jerry would go to his cousin's, forge some bogus
paperwork and enter region clearance to that zone.
"Give me your paperwork and state your business in this zone!" groaned the agent at
the checkpoint. "We are doing a seimic study on this region for geology class." He
peered in the car and looked at our equipment, "Hold on, I'll have to log this in and
verify it." Jerry looked at me as if to say, I hope this works. "Carry on!" Said the agent.
"Phew!" What a relief that was. Shortly after we got out of site from the checkpoint,
Jerry suddenly turned pale, He opened the window and preceded to throw up. "Are you
alright!" "Yes, I didn't think we were going to make it through that checkpoint." "I can
see this is going to be long and hard."
We pulled up to the address that Jerry got from the computer. There weren't too many
houses near, and the place didn't look well taken care of. We looked at each other for
what seemed to be an eternity. My hands were sweaty and I had a lump in my throat.
"Come on Jerry, lets just do it." We knocked on the door and waited for a bit. A few
minutes later, this old man opened the door. He appeared to be in poor health and had
several scares on his face. In a shaky voice he said, "What do you want!" I just looked
at him dumbfounded and lost for words. "Well, what, who are you!" "Oh,um sorry, Uh
free, Uh, freedom through 54." Upon hearing that, he got very still and his eyes turned
glassy as though he was in another world. "Um, is this a bad time?" "If not, we'll leave."
He just stood there in silence. "Lets go Jerry." As we turned to leave, he hollered,
"WAIT!"
"Come with me." He led us to this place in the woods, his movements were slow,
stopping to catch his breath now and then. When we stopped, he sat down on a rock
and began to cry. "I thought I'd never live to see this day." Sobbing as he continued.
"We lost our freedom years ago through a tyrant government." "First it was our guns,
then when they stripped us of our only defense, They stole our integrity and moral
values." "It was terrible they..." "I know", I interupted, "They killed my grandfather."
"Who was your grandfather?" I told him, and he was in great disbelief. "Your
grandfather was a great man, he was my commander in the 54th militia."
"How did you find me?" "Well" I began, I told him everything. About how I turned my
grandfather in and how I later found the cache with books which I soon realized the
mistake I made and how I wanted to change things and make a differance. "Boys, I'm
just too old to help you much, but I have something that can." He stood up, "Move this
rock for me." We grabbed some dead branches and used them to move the rock. It was
another cache, only this time many of the crates had 'DANGER HIGH EXPLOSIVES'
written on them. He hobbled over to a crate and had us pryed it open. Inside were
some books on how to handle explosives along with more books on how to make bombs.
He pointed to some crates and said "Those ones contain all the hardware you need to
assemble many types of bombs, they contain the casings, timers, and other triggering
devices." I pointed at some that had 'HAND GRENADES" written on it and asked him
what a hand grenade was.
We opened it and he showed them to us and explained how to use them.
We closed the place back up and the old man lectured us on how we need to recruit
and network in order to have an efficient uprising. He gave us some brief lessons to
help us. Looking at my watch, I noticed it was time to leave, it was getting close to
our time allowance in this region. "I'm sorry, But we have to go." We need to get to the
checkpoint before 5:00." He understood and we went back to the house. I told him
when we get more people together, we will be back to get what we need. As we were
leaving, the old man said " What ever you do, don't hurt or kill our own, because if you
do, you will be an offence against the true cause of freedom and you will be just like
them." He then smiled at us and waved goodbye. A few weeks later, Jerry invited me
over to meet his cousin. "That doesn't sound too good to me." I told him. "Don't worry,
I'm done accessing his computer until we need to forge something."
I went with him and met his cousin. He seemed a bit nice for a security monitor. Later,
as we sat down for something to eat, Mark spoke up. "You think I don't know what you
guys are doing, do you?" "What do you mean." Jerry said. "I know you've been in my
system accessing things and falsifying documents for the two of you." I knew this
would happen, it was over before it began. My life is over, there will definitly be no
freedom now. He then preceded to tell us, "However, lately I have been second
guessing the way society is and I find myself disagreeing with the direction we are
heading." "It's not right, My clearance allows me to view the old laws for review and I
find myself agreeing with the old ways."
"What does that have to do with us", I said.
"Those people's files that were accessed were all investigated at one time or another
for not conforming." "I want you to know that I nearly turned you in but I decided not
to."
"Instead, I decided to help you." "It won't be much, but it will help."
"Like how?" "Well, believe it or not, I already have." "In the area were we thought your
grandfather buried some arms, we have been picking up some unnatural seismic
activity." I was suppose to order some sensors to be placed out there to triangulate
the source." "It had the characteristics of small arms fire in an enclosed location." "I
put two and two together and instead, logged an order stating that it was as sensor
malfunction." Then I ordered the sensors to be shut down as it was an inactive area
and they were no longer needed." "You boys just do what you feel is right and I don't
want to hear about it." "If you need to access the system,... you must have done it
while I was away from my station." He then winked at us and wished us a safe trip
home. It was a quiet trip home, but we knew that things were beginning to come
together.


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

looks like a good story but it's just too much reading for me. I kind of skimmed over it and can tell you whoever wrote it knows something about military weapons.Very few people know what M193 ball actually is.If you have any maybe we can make a deal since it was banned as being inhuman in 1968.


Wade


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## sniper69 (Sep 23, 2007)

1shotwade said:


> looks like a good story but it's just too much reading for me. I kind of skimmed over it and can tell you whoever wrote it knows something about military weapons.Very few people know what M193 ball actually is.If you have any maybe we can make a deal since it was banned as being inhuman in 1968.
> 
> 
> Wade


M193 Ball? IIRC Federal still makes it and sells it in white boxes. 

The point I was trying to make by posting the story (It originally appeared in the Dillon Blue Press booklets, IIRC) is that if we allow ourselves to have our rights taken away, then it could be a long road to getting those rights restored.


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## 1shotwade (Jul 9, 2013)

sniper69 said:


> M193 Ball? IIRC Federal still makes it and sells it in white boxes.
> 
> The point I was trying to make by posting the story (It originally appeared in the Dillon Blue Press booklets, IIRC) is that if we allow ourselves to have our rights taken away, then it could be a long road to getting those rights restored.



I believe that "1000%" ! Now about the 556 M193 ball. It is a tumbler and does some serious damage upon impact. The international community thru a little hissy fix about that and as usual we had to find a way to bow down to them.(I don't quite understand all that being you are shooting the enemy to kill him,not see if you can get a clean pass through) Anyway,in order to justify the expense of changing to a projectile so we weren't officially bowing down to the rest of the world we changed the requirements for the round to include "It must be able to pass through a steel helmet at 600 yards"Hence,the 62 grain steel core projectile of military 5.56.(unbeknownst to most,It was still available to special opps in combat conditions) 

If it's still out there in the civilian population and hasn't had the properties changed it a fine little round to have.


Wade


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## dizzy (Jun 25, 2013)

&#8220;They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.&#8221;
Ben Franklin


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

dizzy said:


> âThey that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.â
> Ben Franklin


Around here they give up liberty for a few extra dollars in their wallets.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Jim Bunton said:


> The founding fathers believed all actions were natural rights until the government takes the right away. None of our rights come from the government. The second amendment does not bestow any right on us it mearly says the govenment will not infringe on our right.
> 
> Jim


Mostly agree. All rights are natural rights and no rights come from the government, but government cannot take away rights, it can only suppress the exercise of them.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

jtbrandt said:


> Mostly agree. All rights are natural rights and no rights come from the government, but government cannot take away rights, it can only suppress the exercise of them.


Interestingly, I recall Alberto Gonzalez making the argument that the constitution says Habeas Corpus rights can't be suspended, yet he says the constitution never specifically grants the right of Habeas Corpus. Of course that could be extended to the 2nd Amendment also, where the constitution says the right to bear arms can't be abridged, but the constitution never specifically grants the right to bear arms.

Here's Alberto Gonzales making that argument about Habeas Corpus.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQB7yxDxoO4[/ame]


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

Rights are not given nor can they be Lawfully taken.
That is the nature of a right.
Privileges though are different.
Those are Given and can be revoked.

If you read the Bill of rights carefully you will see the 9th Amendment.

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

If you ask me the Anti Gun rhetoric is a smoke screen to disparage those other Rights.
Well the masses clash over that issue and all the other distractions our scumbags slowly and effortlessly work their magic.

Common people we have been being trained and indoctrinated for Generations, that we live in a Democracy and that a right is nothing more then a special privilege.
Delivered via a piece of paper.

When in Fact it does not and that piece of paper is to reign in the Government.
So any action that is in conflict with any amendment is Unlawful.
Its written in plain English and its not the Da vinci code.
If you need to interpret what it means then by god, you need to live in a another County and not here.

I will now remind you we have far more rights then could ever have been included.
That are trampled all the Time.


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## unregistered353870 (Jan 16, 2013)

Nevada said:


> Interestingly, I recall Alberto Gonzalez making the argument that the constitution says Habeas Corpus rights can't be suspended, yet he says the constitution never specifically grants the right of Habeas Corpus. Of course that could be extended to the 2nd Amendment also, where the constitution says the right to bear arms can't be abridged, but the constitution never specifically grants the right to bear arms.


Generally when someone has to thread their argument through a very narrow gap like that, they're full of...something. That clip is a good demonstration of this principle. Along the same lines as Clinton trying to redefine "is."


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## ||Downhome|| (Jan 12, 2009)

This is How I feel about gun grabbers and their supporters. I can only hope they have a inherent fear of clowns.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

The strength of gun laws vary by state, and gun rights enthusiasts and gun control advocates often disagree how each state measures up. It's no suprise then that the same states often find themselves ranked at the extreme end by one group or the other.

These exact same states occupied the top seven spots &#8212; though in different orders &#8212; in listings put out by Guns & Ammo, which advertises itself as "the most widely read firearms magazine," and the Brady Campaign, the nation&#8217;s largest citizens&#8217; lobby to prevent gun violence, working in partnership with the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

The Brady Campaign refers to these seven states as having the &#8220;strongest gun laws&#8221; while Guns & Ammo lists them as being the &#8220;worst states for gun owners.&#8221; 

*New York.* The Empire State finished 50th &#8212; meaning worst &#8212; on Guns & Ammo&#8217;s list of the best states for gun owners. The only entity the magazine put lower, at No. 51, was the District of Columbia, which is not a state. 

The efforts of Gov. Andrew Cuomo brought New York that distinction, contends GodfatherPolitics.com, adding that &#8220;gun manufacturers are leaving the state because of the draconian laws.&#8221;

The Brady Campaign listed New York as having the fifth strongest gun laws. 

*California.* The Brady campaign placed the Golden State first on its list while Guns & Ammo had it fifth. California and Rhode Island in 2012 had been the only states to require background checks on all gun sales at the point of purchase, though New York, Connecticut, Delaware and Colorado joined that group the following year, the Brady Campaign noted.

*Connecticut.* The Constitution State has imposed serious firearms restrictions since a man in December 2012 fatally shot 26 people at that state&#8217;s Sandy Hook Elementary School before turning a gun on himself, according to Guns & Ammo. It added that Connecticut was &#8220;not exactly a gun-friendly state&#8221; before that.

Connecticut finished just below California on the Brady Campaign rankings.

*New Jersey.* The Garden State&#8217;s presence in the top three on both the Guns & Ammo and Brady Campain lists continued a pattern of states in the northeast maintaining some of the toughest firearms regulations.

*Massachusetts.* Guns & Ammo said: &#8220;The place where Americans first took up arms against our oppressors from across the pond is now one of the most difficult states in the union in which to legally bear arms.&#8221; 

The Brady Campaign noted that Massachusetts had the second-lowest rate of gun deaths nationwide.

*Hawaii.* Guns & Ammo said, &#8220;If you head to Hawaii, say Aloha to your guns. For such a laid-back place, Hawaii has some very stringent firearm laws and the lowest gun ownership rate of any of the 50 states.&#8221; 

The Brady Campaign noted that Hawaii has the lowest gun death rate of all 50 states.

*Maryland.* Guns & Ammo reported that Maryland&#8217;s state constitution &#8220;does not guarantee a right to keep and bear arms.&#8221;

The Brady Campaign ranked Maryland ahead of New York in its listings.

http://www.newsmax.com/fastfeatures/gun-laws-by-state-most/2014/12/03/id/610952/


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