# "use logic" u can't deport 11 million people



## manfred (Dec 21, 2005)

I keep hearing this. Please tell me "the logic" why couldn't we?
I'll admit it would take a lot of effort. But don't see why it would not be possible.


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## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

I agree. They just don't have to fortitude to follow through and won't admit it to themselves.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Quite a few reasons we can't do that.
The main one is the majority of the people do not want to and all of the politicians don't want to.
Another reason, where are we going to get the money and manpower to catch 11 million people?
Where are we going to keep them until we deport them?
How are we going to get them back to their country?


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## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

and no one can do anything unless and until they TRY.


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## manfred (Dec 21, 2005)

I believe the effort would pay for itself.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

manfred said:


> I believe the effort would pay for itself.


How is that possible?


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## manfred (Dec 21, 2005)

Hospital bills, prison and jail stays, food stamps, fewer automobile wrecks without insurance, fewer teachers,fewer police, I could go on.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

A big part of the problem is, a lot of those 11 million people had kids that are legal citizens... soooooo... How do you deport Mom and Dad and provide for the kids...

There was a huge part of the problem, allowing those kids to be citizens even though their parents broke the law.. 

I sure wish I could get away with breaking the law and not getting in trouble for it..


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

It's possible. But the Dems want more voters. Repubs won't help to get them deported because then everything the Dems say about Repubs will become true.(how repubs hate minoritys, which is a lie). So it's all about $ for all the jerks we have on the hill,they want to keep their do nothing Jobs.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

manfred said:


> Hospital bills, prison and jail stays, food stamps, fewer automobile wrecks without insurance, fewer teachers,fewer police, I could go on.


None of those will make money available for doing the job.
The money would have to be there before we see any improvements.
Then what would happen next week when 6 million of them we already back and more coming?

People do not stop long enough to really think things out.
Some people just decide we need to do something and never look at the results we would see. Thankfully they are just talk. Just like deporting 11 million people.
It is very easy to see how this is impossible, just have to give it a few minutes of thought.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

No, the repubs want them for cheap labor for all their businesses...


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

simi-steading said:


> No, the repubs want them for cheap labor for all their businesses...


 Oh, like Dems don't have any Businesses.? Have you ever looked in Pelosis deals regarding Unions involving her Husbands buisnesses.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Yeah, but the Republicans are more into business than the Democrats.. It was under a Republican that the majority of them "snuck" into the country while the administration pretended not to notice... 

I know what Pelosi has done concerning her and her husband's businesses... She't no better or no worse than any of them.. .


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

It doesn't matter if it is the democrats or the republicans. Neither want to get rid of the illegals. Both have had their chance and didn't do it. Now it is too late.


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## larryfoster (May 15, 2009)

I have heard that Eisenhower did a mass deportation


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

larryfoster said:


> I have heard that Eisenhower did a mass deportation


Might want to read this... Not really any more than Obama has sent back.. 

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/07/hoover-truman-ike-mass-deporters/


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

The fact is, I fear it is too late - but the fact also is, we can't afford not to do it.

Another fact, the government has been using the 11 million figure for about 12 or more years. Think about it, we have hundreds or more daily, coming here, the figure would have changed dramatically by now. The estimate by some groups who watch these things is from 20 to 30 million and their offsprings. 

The idea that this is a Rep or Dem issue can be shot down by remembering the last administration and that president's speeches about illegals and his push for amnesty.

It's very simple, give them a choice of being charged as felons - or going home. If you added up all the monies they have taken from taxpayers in services, all the tax evasion, driving with insurance/licenses, etc., I think that alone would qualify them as felons. Add to that having fraudulent document(s), a federal crime. Should they deport voluntarily within a certain time, they won't be charged, but should they choose to fight it, they will then be charged.

If they have children, they can take them and they can choose their citizenship when they are 18. Should they choose American, they would not be allowed to use their citizenship to bring their families back into the US, however.

It isn't a matter of money - this country throws away more than enough money on silly things and on the ludicrous DEA to fix that. We somehow find enough money to give billions away to foreign countries, millions to corporations, etc. No, it isn't money.

Think about what is being said. We have tens of millions of people in this country illegally. They are breaking the laws on a daily basis, stealing from the American people - in plain sight, and we try to tell ourselves it is just impossible to do anything about it - other than giving them citizenship>??? 

If we allow our government to feed us that line , how do we allow them to fight wars around the world, but can't even defend our own???

I believe our government's promotion and protection of the illegals is far more sinister than just votes or workers for corporations.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

larryfoster said:


> I have heard that Eisenhower did a mass deportation


Only because he didn't understand the principle of self-deportation the way Mitt Romney did.


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Out of the 11 million, subtract those who commit crimes such as gang stuff, rape, murder, major theft. End those. No jail time just a bullet.

Deport the rest.
They are NOT citizens, they have no rights.
Until the children are 18 they go with the parents. 

Is it harsh? Yes. Do I LIKE the idea? No not really.
However if we want to discourage illegals, we have to mean it and be drastic about it. 
They take to the streets in protest? Round them up. Run them through the data bases, deport or end them. Quit feeling sorry for them, they broke the law, it is time the law won.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

MJsLady said:


> Out of the 11 million, subtract those who commit crimes such as gang stuff, rape, murder, major theft. End those. No jail time just a bullet.
> 
> Deport the rest.
> They are NOT citizens, they have no rights.
> ...


Wow. I don't know about the 'end' part, I'd have to think on that one, but we do need to get real about this and stop speaking platitudes that have no truth and no meaning. It's too important.

You know I never understood how so many people were so brainwashed into being so sympathetic and 'understanding' about a group of people who are doing so much damage to this country and to the people and future generations in this country.

It is truly amazing - 

You mentioned the criminals, and that is something our media and politicians never speak about. I think they all qualify as criminals, but I'm talking really nasty ones. Think about it. If you were a vicious criminal - child molester, murderer, rapists, etc., and you were released from prison. You had the choice to remain in Mexico where, if you offended again - and these usually do - you would return to a Mexican prison - or worse OR you could simply wade the river, walk across the border. Upon that act of crossing the border, you have been 'redeemed'. You not only have a clean record, new identity, you are given more rights than a citizen of the country. On top of that, you can get food, healthcare, housing, etc. 

Law enforcement doesn't bother you unless it is really egregious and caught in the act type thing. If caught, Mexico doesn't want them back, so it's just my assumption, but I'm wondering how cooperative they would be. 

Actually, there is no choice there really, and think how many are hiding within the illegal community. They are enjoying the benefits of our touchy-feely attitude and our government complicity. What a deal!!!

There are so many costs involved with the illegals - some of it, we can assign a dollar amount. How do you assign a dollar figure to loosing your country - to having your government simply turn over your country to a bunch of criminals?? This makes American citizenship meaningless - if you can gain it by breaking the laws of this country.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Romney was right- many would take themselves home if they were prevented from working here. It happened when the economy tanked in 2008. Southern California housing crash, as was the previous growth, was in large part fueled by immigration first flooding in then leaving. 
But the Republicans are looking for a continuous supply of cheap labor and the Demorcrats look for more voters. 
So, as has been the place most Americans have been for more than a decade, nobody is interested in the well being of what used to be the middle class. If you have to compete against cheap labor both here and abroad, that's your problem. You will be thrown crumbs of social welfare programs here and there but you best realize you are not important to any politicitian. You chose to listen to part of the speech that sounded pleasant but skim over the downsides. 
Low taxes and more welfare-something for everyone- ooohhh- that sounds good. Too bad the fantasy ends when the curtain goes down.


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## doodlemom (Apr 4, 2006)

manfred said:


> Hospital bills, prison and jail stays, food stamps, fewer automobile wrecks without insurance, fewer teachers,fewer police, I could go on.


School lunches, college tuitions, prescriptions, prenatal care, subsidized housing.....Fund it with medicare and social security.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

simi-steading said:


> Might want to read this... *Not really any more *than Obama has sent back..
> 
> http://www.factcheck.org/2010/07/hoover-truman-ike-mass-deporters/


PROPORTIONALLY it was a LOT more.
"Factcheck" is BO's former employer's baby.

http://www.factcheck.org/about/


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## mikellmikell (Nov 9, 2005)

Last week I went into work and there was a foot of fresh snow. I parked in my usual spot that had been partially plowed and asked the guy shoveling if it was OK or should I go elsewhere. Got the deer inthe headlights look seems Juan and Juan didn't have a clue what I said. Got to the driveway and the plow operator yelled to move my truck I told hin they said it was OK. He said they didn't speak english and I need to move my truck I laughed and FU senior went inside


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

I wonder why logic dictates that ALL 11 million, or whatever it is, would have to be involuntarily rounded up and deported?
IF our border was secured, step #1, guarded by our troops who we wisely brought home where they belong, why does anyone assume that once the first few busloads started heading south, the rest of them wouldn't get they idea it's time to go and take off too?
We may have to fork out some $ for the first 1O% or so, but as the deportations started in earnest, wouldn't the wise ones get the hint?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

pancho said:


> Quite a few reasons we can't do that.
> The main one is the majority of the people do not want to and all of the politicians don't want to.
> Another reason, where are we going to get the money and manpower to catch 11 million people?
> Where are we going to keep them until we deport them?
> How are we going to get them back to their country?


We wouldnt have to catch and deport 11 million people if we go at it right. Start catching them and deporting them by air... and kicking them out of the plane over their homeland... at 10 thousand feet or so without benefit of a parachute. Do this for a while, and make sure its televised. The other 10,999,000 would deport themselves in a frantic frenzy getting back across the border! Problem solved.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> I wonder why logic dictates that ALL 11 million, or whatever it is, would have to be involuntarily rounded up and deported?
> IF our border was secured, step #1, guarded by our troops who we wisely brought home where they belong, why does anyone assume that once the first few busloads started heading south, the rest of them wouldn't get they idea it's time to go and take off too?
> We may have to fork out some $ for the first 1O% or so, but as the deportations started in earnest, wouldn't the wise ones get the hint?


You do realize the likelyhood of bringing our servicemen home from other countries and putting them on border guard is about the same as a snowball in he!!.

No politician wants to secure the border. For the same amount of money we spend on border control now we could hire enough people to stand hand in hand along the border. Paying them very good wages and only working 8 hours.

The idea that if we gathered up 10% the rest would leave is a joke. It would only make it harder to catch the remaining millions. Why should they go back when the U.S. would foot the bill IF they were caught?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> We wouldnt have to catch and deport 11 million people if we go at it right. Start catching them and deporting them by air... and kicking them out of the plane over their homeland... at 10 thousand feet or so without benefit of a parachute. Do this for a while, and make sure its televised. The other 10,999,000 would deport themselves in a frantic frenzy getting back across the border! Problem solved.


Sure, we will do that right after we have a honest election.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

pancho said:


> Sure, we will do that right after we have a honest election.


Oh, I have no illusions that this will ever happen, just that it would work effectively if it did happen.


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## simi-steading (Sep 27, 2012)

Wonder what would happen if I snuck into Mexico and decided to live there.... Pretty sure I know what would happen once they caught me... and you know they would.. .

Sure is a BS double standard...


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

simi-steading said:


> Wonder what would happen if I snuck into Mexico and decided to live there.... Pretty sure I know what would happen once they caught me... and you know they would.. .
> 
> Sure is a BS double standard...


Why not check into the number of American citizens who are already living in Mexico. There are cities built just for them.
I have been back and forth across Mexico's north and south border quite a few times. I have never been stopped except for a couple times when I returned to the U.S.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

I've said all along that all illegals caught should be deported immediately after being fingerprinted and DNA profiled. They should then be told - in their native tongue, so they understand - that if they come back, the penalty is immediate death.

People will be less likely to sneak back across that border if they know that the penalty is a bullet, administered as soon as the fingerprint and DNA match comes back.

Yes, I realize that sounds harsh. Have any of you ever looked at what happens to people who enter OTHER countries illegally? Lets just say they don't pat them on the head and release them on their own recognizance like we do here, that's for sure.

Realistically, here's my compromise for the entire situation: 
*Step 1* - shut down the border FOR REAL. Terrorists don't bother trying to fly directly into the US anymore, they get themselves into Mexico and come here that way.
*Step 2* - give all people currently in this country illegally 90 days to report themselves officially. They must provide fingerprints in case they are wanted for a crime along with their REAL name, and the names of all their minor children.
*Step 3* - after the 90 days is up, anyone who has NOT reported themselves gets hunted down. Offer a bounty (few hundred $$) for those who report a non-reported illegal, I guarantee there are plenty of people who would give someone up for even a small reward. Then put them on a bus and ship them across the border to Mexico REGARDLESS of which country they snuck here from. They can figure out how to get home on their own.
*Step 4* - all reported illegals are given legit credentials that expire in, say, 18 months. At the end of that 18 month period, IF they can prove that they are able to speak/write English AND that they have the ability to support themselves (i.e. they have an on-the-books job) they can apply for citizenship. (Plenty of churches and community service boards offer FREE English classes, so it wouldn't take much effort for them to at least learn rudimentary English).
*Step 5* - as part of their citizenship application, they must sign something stating that neither they nor their minor children can collect ANY form of entitlement from the government - no SSI, no welfare, no food stamps, no free/reduced lunch, no Medicare/Medicaid, NOTHING (FTR, when I adopted my DD from overseas I had to sign off on this same thing) for a minimum of 10 years, preferably 15.
*Step 6* - if any of these things are not signed/completed within a set amount of time, they are rounded up and send across the border to Mexico (see Step 3).

That way those who want to be productive citizens can stay, and those that are freeloaders/criminals will be sent packing. Of course, none of this will ever happen...... :shrug:


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Yes Americans live in Mexico. However they did not sneak in there. They are not working the system to live there for free either. They don't get free medical or free food. Nor are their children consider citizens if born there. That right there is the dumbest thing i ever heard of. 
As for the ending part, that is how all rapists, murderers and so on should be handled, illegally here or not.

Though for those who attack children or the elderly, I am not so sure a quick end is justified. More like a slow painful one.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Step 1, How do you think we can shut down the border? What terrorists have come over the Mexican border?

Step 2, Sure an illegal is going to come in and be fingerprinted.

Step 3, Lets see. What is 11 million times a couple of hundred $. I thought we have around 20 million here anyway. Just add a few more zeros to the total $ needed.

Step 4, Why the need for the 18 months? Step 1 and step 2 is supposed to get rid of them.

Step 5, It is already against the law for illegals to collect benefits. The reason some do get them is because of lazy American citizens do not do their job. Maybe we should hire the illegals to run the benefit program.

Step 6, Again step 1 and step 2 are supposed to get rid of them. Why have any more steps after step2?


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

simi-steading said:


> A big part of the problem is, a lot of those 11 million people had kids that are legal citizens... soooooo... How do you deport Mom and Dad and provide for the kids...
> 
> There was a huge part of the problem, allowing those kids to be citizens even though their parents broke the law..
> 
> I sure wish I could get away with breaking the law and not getting in trouble for it..


Address the U.S. born children as any minor children and when the parents are required to exit the country the minor child must go with them while retaining their U.S. citizenship or the child may remain in the U.S. if placed under the guardianship of a legal U.S. citizen.

When the child is of legal age they may return to the U.S. if they left with their parents or move into society from their legal guardians as any child as they mature.

Once a member of majority if the U.S. born child can prove capability of sponsorship then they can sponsor their parents for legal immigration.

Our laws say if your born here you are a citizen, They do not make U.S. born citizens of illegals anchors. Children of foreign national parents can retain their U.S. citizenship living abroad until they are of majority age and can then decide what citizenship they want to carry.

The concept of anchor children is simply a selective interpretation of the existing applicable laws of citizenship and care of minor children to circumvent the laws.


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## DaleK (Sep 23, 2004)

Making it as hard as possible to send money home for the wife/kids/cousins would probably change a lot of minds....


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## doodlemom (Apr 4, 2006)

People who come here illegaly are not citizens so I do not understand why it would be unconstitutional to require proof of citizenship for entry into public school.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Trixie said:


> The fact is, I fear it is too late - but the fact also is, we can't afford not to do it.
> 
> Another fact, the government has been using the 11 million figure for about 12 or more years. Think about it, we have hundreds or more daily, coming here, the figure would have changed dramatically by now. The estimate by some groups who watch these things is from 20 to 30 million and their offsprings.
> 
> ...


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

Yes, you can visit Mexico - and I suppose you could stay, but from what I understand they are not kind when they catch you.

As for living in Mexico, we sent for the packet with all the information for living in Mexico.

I also used to exchange emails with a lady who had moved there. She seemed to like it - just said to remember their government doesn't feel quite the same way about Americans as America feels about illegals. She was there because she had a son with a chronic and expensive illness and she could afford treatment there. Also, she said you couldn't get too bent out of shape when locals steal from you - it's a fact of life.

You had to prove you had a certain guaranteed income.

You could not work - no competition for their workers. I do know people who work for certain companies can live and work in Mexico - but I'm talking about migrating there to just live.

You could not own property within a certain distance of the border or shore - and I can't remember if it is 10 miles or 100 miles. I do understand there is a way around that by 'partnering' with a Mexican attorney.

There is a limit of the amount of household goods you can take with you.

No, they are not on welfare because some clerk is lazy. They are on welfare because our government wants them on welfare - the corporations want them on welfare - that's the reason. That's the reason they are here, the reason they are given all the goodies they get.

They have discovered schools in Mexico that are training ME people to speak and act like Mexicans. I can't say they are terrorists - and believe me, our government isn't going to admit it. 

If you believe the idea that ME terrorists are bloodthirsty creatures out to destroy Americans, you must also think about this. That is an open border - it is a fact not lost on the entire world. There is nothing keeping them from coming here, should they choose.

You could, of course, give some thought to the fact there aren't hordes of ME men in the world determined to kill us, and maybe all the war is just hype.

You can't have it both ways.

Both democrats and republicans want them here because the people in power want them here. That's the long and short of it. 

I think there is a chance we will begin to see a glimmer of why they are here come the next election cycle. Especially, if amnesty-by-any-other-name gets through. Pay close attention, because you might not notice or you might be bamboozled by political rhetoric - but I think if not this election, the next.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

This whole thread makes me sad.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

There just isn't a good solution. Any kind of amnesty, no matter how practical it might seem, is morally wrong. You don't reward criminal actions, period. The kids that were born here to illegals or brought here when young, I do have sympathy for them but still why should their problems be solved with my tax dollars and at the expense of American young people having more competition for jobs, college entrances, etc? The failure to secure our borders is an epic failure and one that will haunt us for many generations to come.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

MO_cows said:


> Any kind of amnesty, no matter how practical it might seem, is morally wrong. You don't reward criminal actions, period.


I recall the high priest of conservatism, Ronald Reagan, doing it.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Nevada said:


> I recall the high priest of conservatism, Ronald Reagan, doing it.


It was wrong then, and it's wrong now! We did it once, proved it didn't work, so were goint to do it again? That's one of the stupidist things i've ever seen the government do, and they've done some really, really stupid things! Remember, when Reagan's administration granted amnisty, it was with the promise that the government would seal up the border to prevent this from happing again. They lied, and have been lying to us ever since. I really like the idea of sending the owner and managers of businesses that hire illegals to prison for a manditory 10 year sentence!


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

Why does a single policeperson sitting by the side of the interstate bring hundreds of cars down to the appropriate speed limit? Answer: Fear of being caught.

How does a country send eleven million illegals home? Answer: See above

As long as illegals (primarily from Mexico / Guatemala) have no fear of being caught, no fear of repercussions, they will continue to cross our border and live here without worry.

I am all for immigration. But it should be balanced. Those from the Ukraine or Kenya or Cambodia should have just as easy (or hard) a task of getting in here as Illegal Aliens. No more, no less. And, until unemployment eases, we should first look after the 300 million immigrants who are here already.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

Yes, they have removed any fear of being caught. They have sometimes had a staged raid, notified the media, and arrested a handful - but that was show and tell.

I have sympathy for the children - I know many of them. Some of them are friends of my grandchildren. I also know quite a few of the illegals. Some I like - some I love as friends. 

I have sympathy for the children of criminals who get sent to prison. I''m not ready to say we don't imprison felons because they have children.

My sympathy for all of them come way behind my sympathy for the working American who has lost his job 

For those Americans whose taxes are being used to support the illegals and make up for the illegals not paying taxes.

For Americans who have had their very way of live ruined by this and by the actions of illegals. There are lots of stories.

For the lack of jobs created in this country because illegals send a lot of money out of the country. That is money, if it remained here - circulated here - would create jobs and taxes.
Mexicans have consistently sent back home an amount that is either first or second income for the country. It is either more or second to their oil income.

For my children and grandchildren who are carrying this burden and who will carry it for years to come.

Last, and certainly not least is my sympathy for my country. Does anyone really think when they are given citizenship, they will suddenly become law abiding citizens? These are people who have been taught they don't have to obey laws - are they suddenly going to change? Also, think of the criminals who are going to be given amnesty - they will now be American citizens!

Don't let the government fool you by saying they will weed out the criminals. First, they have to identify them - how do you do that? Mexico's cooperation is certainly not a given.
Then you have the investigation - here and in Mexico - and a trial. Think of the money that will be spent. If the government says they have no money to send them home, where are they going to get money to find, investigate, try and incarcerate all those criminals?
They won't.

When these people are given citizenship, they will have the right to vote - there are millions of them. These are people who have shown disrespect to our country, our laws, our people. They are also going to be large enough in number to have a real say in our elections. Give that some serious thought.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> I recall the high priest of conservatism, Ronald Reagan, doing it.


I recall the DEMS not living up to their end of the deal, as always.

Reagan just signed the law, and mistakenly thought THEY would do as they had promised

And now many of the SAME Dems are spouting the SAME lies today


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## MJsLady (Aug 16, 2006)

Oh my goodness you mean to tell me RR wasn't perfect???
I was just a kid then and I LOVE RR.
However on amnesty I disagreed then and I disagree now. 
Just because a lot of people do something does not make it right. 

Though in truth it isn't just Mexico that sends us illegals. We get them from Chine and other places too. 
ALL of them need to be dealt with Mexican or otherwise.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I recall the DEMS not living up to their end of the deal, as always.
> 
> Reagan just signed the law, and mistakenly thought THEY would do as they had promised
> 
> And now many of the SAME Dems are spouting the SAME lies today


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

pancho said:


> You do realize the likelyhood of bringing our servicemen home from other countries and putting them on border guard is about the same as a snowball in he!!.
> 
> No politician wants to secure the border. For the same amount of money we spend on border control now we could hire enough people to stand hand in hand along the border. Paying them very good wages and only working 8 hours.
> 
> The idea that if we gathered up 10% the rest would leave is a joke. It would only make it harder to catch the remaining millions. Why should they go back when the U.S. would foot the bill IF they were caught?



I guess I was answering the OP's question about logic, rather than dwelling on politics which isn't based in reality OR logic.
What I DO realize is that quite a number of troops being used now are actually National Guard, who have NO business off shore and whose job is actually protecting us here at home. Sounds logical to me.
As to the assumption that deporting some and eliminating their employment chances will not work, the figures from after the last recession prove otherwise. There were thousands who went back voluntarily. Money is a great motivator, again, only logical.


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## 7thswan (Nov 18, 2008)

simi-steading said:


> Yeah, but the Republicans are more into business than the Democrats.If it was all that and a bag of chips then the Dems would be doing it. I'd like to see proof where it shows that Repubs are the main buisness that uses illeagl labor,include all the maids , landscapers,building labor,...
> 
> 
> Immagration dosen't need to be reformed, it needs to be Enforced.
> No new laws until the border is sealed.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

I come from a family with a large number of legal immigrants, my Mother was an immigrant, legal and yeah Mexican. I grew up on the southern border of Texas. And yeah I think we need to be much more vigilant in the protection of our borders, we can do it in Iraq we can do it here. 

We as a nation have very little idea of who comes in, the Mexican gangs have lots of illegals populating them. They are a serious threat to large metropolitan areas, well armed and willing to do about anything to expand. 

http://www.businessinsider.com/13-american-gangs-keeping-the-fbi-up-at-night-2012-8?op=1

*MS-13 is the gang that has the FBI most worried*









Flickr

Mara Salvatrucha is perhaps the most dangerous gang in the country at this point. Originating in El Salvador, the gang has gone transnational, with members across the United States (in 42 states) and in countries like Guatemala and Mexico.
MS-13 has worked with Mexican drug cartels and communicates frequently with incarcerated members despite no official leadership structure.


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/13-a...the-fbi-up-at-night-2012-8?op=1#ixzz2JTGSTdhI


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> It was wrong then, and it's wrong now! We did it once, proved it didn't work, so were goint to do it again? That's one of the stupidist things i've ever seen the government do, and they've done some really, really stupid things! Remember, when Reagan's administration granted amnisty, it was with the promise that the government would seal up the border to prevent this from happing again. They lied, and have been lying to us ever since. I really like the idea of sending the owner and managers of businesses that hire illegals to prison for a manditory 10 year sentence!


The amnesty part seemed to work great. Govt. just failed to do what they promised. Maybe one day people will pull their head out and look around. Then they might notice how the govt. has lied to them. This isn't just one party doing the lying. Both do it far more then they tell the truth.
Not only did the govt. not secure the border they provided incentives for more illegals to come here.
Does anyone think the govt. has decided to change what they have been doing for so long a time?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Warwalk said:


> Why does a single policeperson sitting by the side of the interstate bring hundreds of cars down to the appropriate speed limit? Answer: Fear of being caught.
> 
> How does a country send eleven million illegals home? Answer: See above
> 
> ...


What is the worst thing that can happen to an illegal who chooses to come to the U.S.? Getting caught and sent back.
They can usually make it back about the same time the vehicle used to take them to the border.
Not much the U.S. can do to these people that their country has not already done. They are much more afraid of going back than they are getting caught here.


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## Nevada (Sep 9, 2004)

Trixie said:


> Yes, they have removed any fear of being caught.


That's simply not the case. Some of you might be aware that my significant other is an immigrant from Europe and just became a citizen on December 28th. But there was a time that she was a visa overstay, and that status lasted for perhaps 5 years before she got her green card.

It wasn't easy for her. She had nightmares of being taken away in handcuffs by federal agents. It got so bad that her doctor prescribed xanax to control her panic attacks. She even considered returning to Europe.

While that fear was self-inflicted for the most part, it was nevertheless very real.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> While that fear was self-inflicted for the most part, it was nevertheless very real.


She didn't WALK over the border
Apples and Oranges


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I recall the DEMS not living up to their end of the deal, as always.
> 
> Reagan just signed the law, and mistakenly thought THEY would do as they had promised
> 
> And now many of the SAME Dems are spouting the SAME lies today


Oh no, Reagan passed the buck as usual.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

That M13 guy looks like my kid after a few boxes of cracker jacks!


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

pancho said:


> What is the worst thing that can happen to an illegal who chooses to come to the U.S.? Getting caught and sent back.
> They can usually make it back about the same time the vehicle used to take them to the border.
> Not much the U.S. can do to these people that their country has not already done. They are much more afraid of going back than they are getting caught here.


I always felt these people where refugees, but I also don't believe in rewarding illegal behavior. I think it's way past time to get tough with the Mexican govt.


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## Ambereyes (Sep 6, 2004)

"That M13 guy looks like my kid after a few boxes of cracker jacks! bowdonkey"

I like tattoos but that kind makes me dizzy..


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Truth is that exporting labor to the US means less pressure to provide jobs and services from it's own population in Mexico. Of course it works out for Mexico with their political situation.
If people want to immigrate to the US and they want to be Americans because they love the opportunity this country offers, then there is a chance that they will provide vigor to the US. Unfortunately too many people, in fact I suspect most, want the advantages and subsidies, while denigrating the US. They have been fed the garbage of self-hate that is rampant in this country. This makes them a danger, not an asset, to the rest of the US.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

simi-steading said:


> Wonder what would happen if I snuck into Mexico and decided to live there.... Pretty sure I know what would happen once they caught me... and you know they would.. .
> 
> Sure is a BS double standard...


Not true, at least for an American, it's ridiculously easy. I know many Americans who've done it - lived in Tijuana, Ensenada, or the small towns in between, and worked in San Diego, albeit this was before 9/11 and the need for a passport to get back in. Truth is, you'd have more problems with the American government doing this than you would with the Mexican government.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

MJsLady said:


> Yes Americans live in Mexico. However they did not sneak in there. They are not working the system to live there for free either. They don't get free medical or free food. Nor are their children consider citizens if born there. That right there is the dumbest thing i ever heard of.
> As for the ending part, that is how all rapists, murderers and so on should be handled, illegally here or not.
> 
> Though for those who attack children or the elderly, I am not so sure a quick end is justified. More like a slow painful one.


 
Almost nobody in Mexico gets free healthcare, but the healthcare is priced so that people can actually afford it, and lots of Americans cross the border to take advantage of the Mexican healthcare system. I know this for a fact.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

History has shown more than once, that when you want to get rid of millions of undesirables, shooting is impractical. For mass deportation, trains are most effective, the use of cattle cars in particular. 

Another viable strategy is to limit the undesirables to a specific area, or several small areas, restrict their movement, followed by limiting the movement of food into the area. Sometimes hard labor is added to speed up the process.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Sort of funny when people suggest we do the same thing here that we send soldiers to prevent from happening in other countries.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Quick question- If you were stopped by the authorities today how would you prove you were in the country legally?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

NoClue said:


> Almost nobody in Mexico gets free healthcare, but the healthcare is priced so that people can actually afford it, and lots of Americans cross the border to take advantage of the Mexican healthcare system. I know this for a fact.


My cousin went there for cancer treatment. He died because of it!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> Quick question- If you were stopped by the authorities today how would you prove you were in the country legally?


I speak english with no forign accent! That's a dead give away right there!

Drivers licence, social security card. Your name will come up when they run it in the computer.


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## bluemoonluck (Oct 28, 2008)

mmoetc said:


> Quick question- If you were stopped by the authorities today how would you prove you were in the country legally?


_Ideally _a US-issued driver's license should suffice, because only those who can prove US citizenship/legal status _should _have one. I know when I went to get my license last time, I had to provide multiple proofs of residence, social security card, and a copy of my birth cert. Of course I guess all that can be forged :flame:

If it came down to it, I'd just update my passport and start carrying that everywhere :shrug:.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

JeffreyD said:


> My cousin went there for cancer treatment. He died because of it!


Mexican medicine once saved my life.


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

@MMOETC ~ If I were stopped by the authorities today, I could show them I was here legally via my Texas drivers' license. Here in Texas you can't get a license without first showing a stamped birth certificate and social security card, and I believe they run a screen on this to make sure it's legitimate. So, unless the license were fake (and most police should be able to ascertain this) I'd have a fair amount of proof that I was here legally.


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## tgmr05 (Aug 27, 2007)

The best solution to the problem is something the left will not do. 

First, fix the porous nature of our borders, and actually enforce immigration laws that are already on the books.

Second, for all that are here now, grant them a 10 year period to stay and work towards legal citizenship. During that time, they must follow all these rules, or get deported.

1 - They are not allowed to VOTE until they become citizens
2 - They have to pay a 10 percent higher tax rate than others in same income bracket to help with expenses incurred due to illegal status, as well as being a fine for their illegal status
3 - They must contribute 500 hours to community service during the 10 years
4 - They must speak/learn English within 3 years
5 - They must present their documents once a year, to be stamped, so that they can stay another year. If not, they are deported.
6 - They must pass the citizenship test and classes that all legal immigrants do.

I am all for them staying, as long as they have to go through the same process as those who did it legally, plus pay a little extra for their crime. Otherwise, why should anyone even try to follow the rules, anymore??..


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

mmoetc said:


> Quick question- If you were stopped by the authorities today how would you prove you were in the country legally?


Why should I have to prove I am in the country legally?


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## larryfoster (May 15, 2009)

simi-steading said:


> Might want to read this... Not really any more than Obama has sent back..
> 
> http://www.factcheck.org/2010/07/hoover-truman-ike-mass-deporters/


I never said he deported 13 million illegals.
Seriously doubt there were that many here.

My memory may fail but it seems that I heard 3 million which is a lot closer to the facts you cited.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> Quick question- If you were stopped by the authorities today how would you prove you were in the country legally?


I would simply show them my drivers license, which I had to provide proof of citizenship to get in the first place.  If it became a problem, I have a certified copy of my birth certificate and my passport available at home.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

NoClue said:


> Mexican medicine once saved my life.


Mexican cactus juice, and several other plants from south of the border have enhanced my perception of life several times.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

pancho said:


> Why should I have to prove I am in the country legally?


You dont, at least not to my knowledge. There seems to be no crime involved with anyones presence in this country. At least there seems to be no penalty at this time. I think the term "undocumented" has pretty much replaced the term "illegal" these days.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

pancho said:


> Why should I have to prove I am in the country legally?


No one should have to- unfortunately that idea has been so abused that it can no more be accepted as reasonable than the idea of "why should I have to lock my house door?"


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

where I want to said:


> No one should have to- unfortunately that idea has been so abused that it can no more be accepted as reasonable than the idea of "why should I have to lock my house door?"


You're right, no one should have to. But how do we identify those 11 million if we don't ask everyone. They're not all little brown people and many of those have deeper roots here in the US than I.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

Warwalk said:


> @MMOETC ~ If I were stopped by the authorities today, I could show them I was here legally via my Texas drivers' license. Here in Texas you can't get a license without first showing a stamped birth certificate and social security card, and I believe they run a screen on this to make sure it's legitimate. So, unless the license were fake (and most police should be able to ascertain this) I'd have a fair amount of proof that I was here legally.


Plenty of illegals have Texas DL - duly issued by the state. 

Checking could be done, but it wouldn't be as easy as it sounds. We have let it go on so long, government offices don't check, anyone can get a certified copy of a birth certificate with just a name - I know. I got mine with just my name and it was acceptable to get SS benefits going.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

pancho said:


> Sort of funny when people suggest we do the same thing here that we send soldiers to prevent from happening in other countries.


What I find totally not funny is that we send soldiers to other countries to supposedly protect them from foreign invaders who come to loot their country - yet our government encourages, protects and promotes it here in our own country.


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

I think, if we are to really stop illegal immigration, there can be no amnesty. I think the penalties for being here illegally should be increased in some manner, and it should be well known. Just as in the "cop beside the interstate" example, if there is fear of being caught, many (though not all) will self deport. 

Secondly, any child born here by someone that is here legally but not a citizen may remain, as a citizen. If they aren't here legally the child must go home. (No more anchor babies). I know it's not the kids' fault, but this is one of the greatest drivers behind having a baby here. 

Thirdly, we get that border secure. How, I'm not certain, but a good start would be to follow the trails of trash in the desert, camp out, and grab em'.

Fourth, realize that there are many jobs here in America which need to be filled, and that for whatever reason US Citizens simply won't do them (even if the pay is high). Allow for a streamlining in the Work Visa application process, so that the worker may arrive by train or bus in a dignified manner. Get this process down to the point where it possibly takes a month for the first issuance, perhaps days or hours for subsequent issuances. While here under the Visa, the worker would be afforded every freedom or privelege an ordinary citizen would (minus voting). If the employer - employee should have a falling out, the employee would be allowed to use the remaining time left on their Work Visa to look for other work (that way nobody becomes an indentured servant).

Amnesty, in any form, simply emboldens those that have broken the law, and it's a slap in the face to those from other countries ~ countries that don't necessarily share a common border with us, as they wait in line for a year or longer just to find out if they'd even qualify.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

You know we are thinking in terms of Mexicans when we talk about illegals - and rightly so. The terms are pretty much interchangeable in many places.
There are, though, a lot of people from all over the world who are here illegally.

We think we are just giving citizenship to our neighbors from Mexico - and ?that is not the truth. So, how many ME are going to get amnesty? How many Russian mobsters are going to get amnesty? How many criminals from all over the world who flocked here because of our open border and tolerance for illegals?

Then what are we going to do when the Chinese families who timed their vacations here to coincide with the birth of their child and want their citizenship?
How many were born in those places in California that specialized in Chinese births?

As bad as giving citizenship to Mexicans who have caused so much harm, we will be giving citizenship to a lot of others.


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## NoClue (Jan 22, 2007)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Mexican cactus juice, and several other plants from south of the border have enhanced my perception of life several times.


Mine as well, both in their country and mine, but that's not what I'm talking about here.

I'm talking about walking around minding my own business, then suddenly keel over and wake up in a hospital.


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## mekasmom (Jan 19, 2010)

mmoetc said:


> They're not all little brown people and many of those have deeper roots here in the US than I.


What about the non-citizens who were brought here as small children by their parents? They know nothing else. They grew up here. They would have no idea how to find housing, jobs, life if they were deported. 
We should have some compassion for the young people who grew up here.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

7thswan said:


> simi-steading said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, but the Republicans are more into business than the Democrats.If it was all that and a bag of chips then the Dems would be doing it. I'd like to see proof where it shows that Repubs are the main buisness that uses illeagl labor,include all the maids , landscapers,building labor,...
> ...


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

The reality when it comes to illegals and jobs is that, just as with any other economic model, the market will pay what the workers will take. In Atlanta, during the height of the housing boom, many companies (mine included) would use Hispanic labor almost exclusively. But why? The reasons are twofold:

The first reason is that they showed up to my office, in their own vehicle, with Georgia plates, having come with a recommendation that they were a good worker, and possessing both a valid Georgia driver's license as well as a social security card. To turn them away simply on suspicion of something would have been considered discrimination, and I could have faced substantial lawsuits. 

The second reason is a little less fortunate: I had tried hiring White workers. I had tried hiring African Americans. Time after time after time... more times than I could count, the workers would show up late, or they had too many DUI's, or they would stop by the gas station and get a "tall boy" to start their day (this was grounds for instant termination)... some days they wouldn't show up at all, or complain that the jobs were too high, too low, too far, or didn't pay enough. It was a sad state of affairs. 

By the time I got my first Hispanic worker, it was like a breath of fresh air. They came from another company, with experience... they showed up on time, they did quality work, they stayed until the work was done, they didn't complain, and the next day they arrived freshly showered and ready to do it all over again. And the paltry sum they recieved for this? My workers averaged between $800-$1000 a week take home. Not bad for construction work. I've heard the stories of the strawberry pickers that made five dollars an hour if they were lucky, but that simply wasn't the way of it in Atlanta.

Even down at the local home depot or gas station, where workers would mill about fifty or more at a time (often with a police officer parked in an adjacent lot), my neighbors would often grab a worker and have them do lawn maintenance or household work for ten bucks an hour... that was ten bucks an hour, tax free, plus lunch, plus snacks and drinks, plus a ride there and back. Hardly bad money. So why didn't my neighbors grab the teenager from up the street? The answer is they'd tried, but alot of the time he wouldn't show up due to a new girlfriend or school.

The immigration thing is a toughie ~ so many, with every right to be here, thumb their noses at the amazing blessings they are provided.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

You know it sounds to me like you just weren't getting the responsible people to apply. It sounds to me like what you were getting to apply were the unemployable anyway - we've always had those. Ever wonder why that's all you got? Are you saying that's all there is in America??? I'm really asking, because I hear this all the time and I don't get it.

I keep hearing that the illegals are just doing the work Americans won't do and we must have them. I always ask 'who was doing the work before the illegals came?' I haven't gotten an answer yet.

You would think we were a country with no cows being milked, no pigs being slaughtered, no lawns being mowed, no construction. If you believe the talk, we were just a helpless bunch of people - until the illegals came to save us.

Do I believe an employer might have trouble finding responsible Americans to work in certain jobs - yes - now. When hard working, responsible people get turned down for a job, in favor of an illegal, often enough, they give up, and move on, if they can. What are they supposed to do, sit around until some employer can't find enough illegals and want to hire them for a while?

Now you have a man who can't find a job, that will pay enough for rent, food, medical care - just necessities. He goes on welfare and at least he knows they won't starve, will get treated if ill, will have a roof over their heads. Can you understand how he is reluctant to chance loosing that by taking a job that he knows he might/probably will loose if an illegal shows up? And the insulting part of it is, the illegal can get all the same welfare benefits and continue to work.

I bought some equipment from a drywaller in Utah because illegals had come in and the contractors were hiring them. He had a crew of men, and lots of equipment, so I'm assuming he must have known what he was doing and probably did a good job. We were staying downtown in a hotel, my husband went outside to the smoking area and met another drywaller who had lived and worked as a drywaller in Utah for 20 years, - but the illegals had taken the jobs and he had to go elsewhere.

Some illegals are great workers, and there are usually plenty available. I'll agree teens don't work as they once did - some still do, given the chance. When the illegals got all the mowing jobs, kids just stop doing it. When my son was in school, he and a friend had a mowing business, within a couple of years after he left home, no kid was mowing - only the illegals.

I will tell you what has happened to construction in one area. The Mexicans have started their own businesses and put their former employers out of business.


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

@Trixie ~ It's really kind of an academic question until it's actually your own money on the line. I hunted hard for jobs to try to build my business, and once found I was forced (at least initially) to rely on people that really didn't care where the job came from, and treated the work as such. 

The whole issue of "illegals coming in and taking American jobs" wasn't an overnight sort of thing, but rather a long gradual process that was generations in the making. Since my guys had license, insurance, and ss card, I wouldn't call them illegal. But, for those that are, for those where as you say "Mexicans... put their former employers out of business", these individuals in many cases work harder and for longer hours. 

I've heard this nonsense for years about how "the illegals took mah j'yeob!". In plain parlance though, nobody took anyone's job ~ The owner of the business simply wasn't able to adapt with the changing of the times, and had grown complacent. In order for a construction company to bid on work, they have to provide their potential client with insurance documentation. In order for the insurance company to provide protection against liability or bodily harm, they must have payroll documentation (and will often perform audits to verify). In order for a company to have payroll documentation, they must report wage earnings to state and federal agencies and pay taxes thereon. So it's a series of checks and balances. When my business was at its' height, I met people that said the same... "g'yoldanged illegals took mah j'yeob!". The reality was different ~ the reality was that those people simply didn't want to work as hard as the economy required, and gave up and made excuses. 

I still don't think that there should be amnesty, but it's out of fairness to all other legal immigrants rather than anything. This country was founded by immigrants, and is constantly changing with each new wave of immigration... and that's not a bad thing.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

*Warwalk - *I, too, saw this develop over time. While I have lived in other parts of Texas, including South Texas and on the border where the Hispanic population is quite large.

The area that I speak of being so affected was an area where there were no Hispanics. In our small town, my husband was the only white person who spoke Spanish. The only other person I knew was one of the doctors who was from Mexico. My husband helped a lot with interpreting for them.

So we did have a ringside seat to the changes brought about.

When I say illegals took the jobs - that isn't factually correct. The employer REPLACED them with illegals. Now that's factual. Those lazy Americans were working, they were doing these jobs, were supporting themselves. Any openings went to illegals and gradually they were laid off and replaced by illegals. 

The company had a rule if you were laid off once during a slow down, you could only be rehired once more than you were 'ineligible'. So naturally, then, the owner could whine that he just couldn't find any locals to work. Not too hard to figure that one out.

Now this had nothing whatsoever to do with the owner becoming complacent or any such thing. It had to do with the knowledge they could make a bigger profit if they employed illegals, paid them less, taxpayers would pay if they were hurt on the job, no taxes to collect or match. Later the government was subsidizing rent for them. The owner of this company had politicians on speed dial, so the government would not only help in this endeavor, but would make sure he was protected.

At first, they only worked in the poultry houses, some on the dairies, then doing odd jobs on farms. After a while, some came who spoke good English, but no locals. We wondered how people were finding them to just do a few days work on their farms. We asked, and the man replied, 'Just call the County Agent, and tell him many you need and where - he'll deliver them."

Again, with the influx of illegals, people had to change to survive. The fact they are no longer applying for the jobs they pretty much know illegals will get is no surprise. If you want to blame someone for not being able to find Americans to do the job - blame the employers who began hiring them and replacing American workers.

No doubt those starting business are working harder. Even those lazy Americans might be able to start businesses if they were allowed to work as much as they want, make as much money as they want, pay little or no taxes, and get welfare.

I definitely don't think there should be an amnesty, but it's going to happen. I will be sad, but it will be interesting if I live to see the 'intended consequences' of this.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Trixie said:


> Even those lazy Americans might be able to start businesses if they were allowed to work as much as they want, make as much money as they want, pay little or no taxes, and get welfare.


I take issue here.... As one of those lazy Americans who started several businesses over the years. I have never once been told how many hours I could work, or how much money I could make, and until I actually made a substantial amount of money from the various enterprises I was not required to pay much by way of income tax either. AS to welfare... that part I am unfamiliar with, as I never applied, so dont know if I could have gotten it or not.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

mekasmom said:


> What about the non-citizens who were brought here as small children by their parents? They know nothing else. They grew up here. They would have no idea how to find housing, jobs, life if they were deported.
> We should have some compassion for the young people who grew up here.


You mean deported back to their own country where their relatives live? They should have respect for the laws their parents broke and self deport. I have compassion for my fellow legal citizens first. Let's get OUR citizens back to work before we give 12million criminals a chance at those jobs! That's fair isn't it?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> You mean deported back to their own country where their relatives live? They should have respect for the laws their parents broke and self deport. I have compassion for my fellow legal citizens first. Let's get OUR citizens back to work before we give 12million criminals a chance at those jobs! That's fair isn't it?


What is keeping the citizens from taking the jobs right now?
All it takes is being capable and willing to do the work.
Without that it won't matter if we deport every single illegal.
With that it won't matter how many illegals are here the citizens would have the jobs.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> What is keeping the citizens from taking the jobs right now?


ILLEGALS in those jobs who will work "under the table" for *less money *


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Bearfootfarm said:


> ILLEGALS in those jobs who will work "under the table" for *less money *


Sounds like the citizen is not willing to compete for a job.
They expect more pay and benefits for less work.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I take issue here.... As one of those lazy Americans who started several businesses over the years. I have never once been told how many hours I could work, or how much money I could make, and until I actually made a substantial amount of money from the various enterprises I was not required to pay much by way of income tax either. AS to welfare... that part I am unfamiliar with, as I never applied, so dont know if I could have gotten it or not.


Perhaps you took issue because you didn't read the statement in it's entirety.

I said IF you could work all you want, make as much money as you want, pay no taxes and get welfare. 

Now anyone can work all they want make as much money as they can - that's a fact.

Not many of us - who aren't illegals - can do that without paying taxes and while drawing welfare benefits.

So make that deal to some of those lazy Americans - bet you get some takers.
I'll even bet some can save enough to start their own business.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

pancho said:


> What is keeping the citizens from taking the jobs right now?
> All it takes is being capable and willing to do the work.
> Without that it won't matter if we deport every single illegal.
> With that it won't matter how many illegals are here the citizens would have the jobs.


No all it takes isn't being capable and being willing to do the work. 

Americans were capable and willing to do the work AND they were doing the work - when they were replaced by illegals. Just as background.

Now assuming we have someone capable and willing to do the job.

We have to get the employer to hire him - when the employer has a decided preference for illegals.

So we must make it profitable for the employer. We will assure him he doesn't have to collect or match taxes on this new employee. If this new employee is hurt on the job, just take him/her to the ER and taxpayers will pay for it.

Then we assure the new employee they will have to pay no taxes, and can continue to get any and all welfare benefits.

We have to do apples to apples here.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

How many times have you seen something that was working good replaced with something that don't work as good?
Things don't happen that way.
Something that isn't working will be replaced with something better.
That is just a fact of life.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

pancho said:


> What is keeping the citizens from taking the jobs right now?
> All it takes is being capable and willing to do the work.
> Without that it won't matter if we deport every single illegal.
> With that it won't matter how many illegals are here the citizens would have the jobs.


Nothing, the citizens are taking those jobs right now, there just aren't enough of them! All it takes are jobs being available! If there are none available, no one works! Many employer's higher illigals over citizens because they work cheaper! Send the owners to jail for years and that may change.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

pancho said:


> Sounds like the citizen is not willing to compete for a job.
> They expect more pay and benefits for less work.


Citizens have to obey the law! The government set the amount of minimum wage. The employer has to file payroll taxes with the government so the government knows how much the citizens got paid. Being illegal, they avoid ALL that, or use stolen id.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

pancho said:


> How many times have you seen something that was working good replaced with something that don't work as good?
> Things don't happen that way.
> Something that isn't working will be replaced with something better.
> That is just a fact of life.


Name one thing other than the military that the government has taken over and does it better than private industry! I see products that used to work great and last a long time replaced with junk. Planed obsolesence. Refrigerators, washers, dryers, ovens, cars, trucks, etc... all crap now!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> Name one thing other than the military that the government has taken over and does it better than private industry! I see products that used to work great and last a long time replaced with junk. Planed obsolesence. Refrigerators, washers, dryers, ovens, cars, trucks, etc... all crap now!


Look at the amount of energy each one of these items use now compared to 50 years ago.
Look at the number of miles you can put on a car or truck compared to one built ing the 50-60s.

Private industry is the ones who make it possible for the illegals to stay here.
They hire them.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> Citizens have to obey the law! The government set the amount of minimum wage. The employer has to file payroll taxes with the government so the government knows how much the citizens got paid. Being illegal, they avoid ALL that, or use stolen id.


Many illegals pay taxes just like the citizens do.
One difference is the citizen can usually get some of their taxes back.
The illegal does not.
Do a search on the taxes collected from illegals.
Look at the date the govt. last released the amount in the fund.
Research what happens to that money and why the govt. stop releasing the amount in the fund.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

pancho said:


> Look at the amount of energy each one of these items use now compared to 50 years ago.
> Look at the number of miles you can put on a car or truck compared to one built ing the 50-60s.
> 
> Private industry is the ones who make it possible for the illegals to stay here.
> They hire them.


Don't care about the energy they use as long as they work!
Our Dodge Dakota was bought new, the trans blew at 24,000 miles. I still have my 66 Chevelle with the original motor and trans, 396ci and a turbo 400 trans. 288,000 miles still going strong. My wifes Lexus RX, bad trans ($6600 at the dealer, out of warranty at 77,000 miles) The owners of private industry need to go to jail for hiring illegas for at least 10 years.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

pancho said:


> Many illegals pay taxes just like the citizens do.
> One difference is the citizen can usually get some of their taxes back.
> The illegal does not.
> Do a search on the taxes collected from illegals.
> ...


If they pay state and federal income tax, then they stole someone's id! That makes them an even worse criminal. Sales taxes are a different matter.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> Don't care about the energy they use as long as they work!
> Our Dodge Dakota was bought new, the trans blew at 24,000 miles. I still have my 66 Chevelle with the original motor and trans, 396ci and a turbo 400 trans. 288,000 miles still going strong. My wifes Lexus RX, bad trans ($6600 at the dealer, out of warranty at 77,000 miles) The owners of private industry need to go to jail for hiring illegas for at least 10 years.


All you have to do is quit buying from those who hire illegals.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> If they pay state and federal income tax, then they stole someone's id! That makes them an even worse criminal. Sales taxes are a different matter.


Isn't that what people have been saying for years.
If there is any question about a SS number all of the taxes collect from that SS number goes into a special account.

Say 12 illegals use the same SS number. Everybody says it happens all of the time. When SS collects taxes from all 12 illegals they keep every cent of it. It goes into a special fund.

If you do a search on this they can explain it a lot better than I can.
While you are there look how much is in that special fund.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

pancho said:


> All you have to do is quit buying from those who hire illegals.


How do i know who hires them?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

pancho said:


> Isn't that what people have been saying for years.
> If there is any question about a SS number all of the taxes collect from that SS number goes into a special account.
> 
> Say 12 illegals use the same SS number. Everybody says it happens all of the time. When SS collects taxes from all 12 illegals they keep every cent of it. It goes into a special fund.
> ...


Remember that the number that actually use a stolen ss number is almost insigificant to the number of illegals actually here! And while there may be a huge pile of cash in that fund, money from it is supposed to go to the original owner of that number, so the fund size really is significantly lower. I always thought the government put that money in the general fund.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

pancho said:


> How many times have you seen something that was working good replaced with something that don't work as good?


Um, last month. And before that was 6 months ago. Before that a year and a half. That's just where I work. 
Oh, let's not forget the station wagon, standard transmissions, full sized vans, the Ford Crown Victoria, cars that got 40 mpg, television picture tubes, digital tv. I could make a whole list of junk that doesn't work as well as the old version.

And how do you explain Windows 8????

Faster and cheaper. It's the American way. Planned obsolescence. It's everywhere. If something is made to break and wear out sales go up. Cheap Chinese crap that in some cases doesn't pass American safety requirements and wears out twice as fast.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

It was pointed out to me in another thread that in some cases you can claim a zero liability on your federal withholding W2 form. If the illegals claim that there are no federal taxes withheld. Then they would not have to file a tax return.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

pancho said:


> How many times have you seen something that was working good replaced with something that don't work as good?
> Things don't happen that way.
> Something that isn't working will be replaced with something better.
> That is just a fact of life.


Better for whom?

The employers who get subsidized labor?

I guess it's better for Mexico. The illegal have consistently - for many years, don't know about recently, sent back an amount equal too or surpassing their oil industry. They also get to unload all their poor, their criminals on the American people. That may be the reason Mexico is now considered by the big money people, to be a good investment. While America is going down the tubes, Mexico is rising.

Better for our politicians who get hefty contributions from the employers?

Better for grocery stores - because we give food stamps and illegals spend them.

Better for healthcare corporations - because we pay for free healthcare - the birthing of those babies has got to be a bundle.

Better for construction companies and real estate companies - because we furnish housing for the illegals.

Better for banks and Western Union, they make bundle transferring that money.

Better for the drug users - plenty of suppliers.

Yeah, I'd say it was better for them.

Or better for the Americans who have lost their jobs - or the taxpayers who are having to subsidize the illegals and support those without jobs.

Not so much.


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## edcopp (Oct 9, 2004)

Forced march would work. We have millions of workers out of work. Perhaps they might volunteer to assist with the march. :awh:


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> It was pointed out to me in another thread that in some cases you can claim a zero liability on your federal withholding W2 form. If the illegals claim that there are no federal taxes withheld. Then they would not have to file a tax return.


Think about this bit of 'information' the government puts out about how much taxes illegals are paying.

If illegals were paying into SS, we wouldn't be having a problem with it would we? 

Most illegals work on a contract basis. They just flash a SS card - any card - yours, mine, or no one's. The employer deducts no taxes. They send a 1099 at the end of the year and it's up to the employee to file and pay the taxes.

At least that's the way it works here in Texas.

Now, are we supposed to believe all these 'law abiding illegals' are going to do their duty, file a return, and pay those self employment taxes? 

That would take a heap of believing.

Actually, the government some years ago said they just couldn't check out all the 1099's against filings. Someone had asked the question of why they couldn't locate illegals that way and collect taxes.

My husband works on a contract basis. They somehow managed to match up a report for a $50 yearly gas royalty that we missed. They charged us a penalty for failing to report. But, they just can't come up with anyway to check out those millions of 1099's that don't have a filing to match.

No, if our government is not above letting them come here, allowing them to break so many laws, making taxpayers pay for their upkeep - they are not above fudging just a little - or lot - on something like this.

It really doesn't pass the giggle test.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

pancho said:


> Sounds like the citizen is not willing to compete for a job.
> They expect more pay and benefits for less work.


No, they have to pay taxes and work LEGALLY rather than "under the table"

It's not a matter of being "willing to compete" if the EMPLOYER will only hire the LOWEST BIDDER


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

mekasmom said:


> What about the non-citizens who were brought here as small children by their parents? They know nothing else. They grew up here. They would have no idea how to find housing, jobs, life if they were deported.
> We should have some compassion for the young people who grew up here.


I do feel bad for them. What their parents did to them is shameful. However, giving them a free pass to citizenship is like saying if my parents robbed a bank, it wasn't my fault and I'm such a good person so I should get to keep the money.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

MO_cows said:


> There just isn't a good solution. Any kind of amnesty, no matter how practical it might seem, is morally wrong. You don't reward criminal actions, period. The kids that were born here to illegals or brought here when young, I do have sympathy for them but still why should their problems be solved with my tax dollars and at the expense of American young people having more competition for jobs, college entrances, etc? The failure to secure our borders is an epic failure and one that will haunt us for many generations to come.


Yes there is a good solution. Close the borders and as anchor or illegal children are identified pursue the illegal adults and say "bye bye" or treat them as criminals which they are and fine the heck out of them if they want to pursue the path to legal status.

Addressing the illegal alien situation is no different than addressing a pest infestation in a house. First you treat the foundation to prevent further infestation then address the infestation within the house. The only difference with the illegals is that instead of using pesticides we need to use identification, documentation, applicable legal process and restitution to begin the clean up.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

A company who took over a large local business was based in Texas. Within short order they started brining in all Mexican crews. They would work for 2/3s the wage that American crews had been receiving. Also they did not file for workers comp if injured- they recieved a short term private disability insurance and went home. If they were laid off, they did not collect unemployment- they simply went home. 
Now the American workers did not recieve a huge salary but they did get unemployment for seasonal layoff. They filed for workers comp if injured. They also had family here to support which the alien work crews did not. 
It came down to the company could wiggle its way around most labor regulations while paying a salary that would not support a family living in this country. So the American crews just disappeared in a couple of year. They did not get recalled after the seasonal lay off and either retired or left the area. 
And these were legally admitted people. Illegals worked in places with even less protections at a rate that a store clerk would not. 
Being able to hire around all the regulations meant that no American worker would ever be competitive. 
It is not an issue of whether immigrants are bad people or whether American are lazy, it's the damage to wages scale and benefits that having an available unlimited pool of workers does.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

where I want to said:


> A company who took over a large local business was based in Texas. Within short order they started brining in all Mexican crews. They would work for 2/3s the wage that American crews had been receiving. Also they did not file for workers comp if injured- they recieved a short term private disability insurance and went home. If they were laid off, they did not collect unemployment- they simply went home.
> Now the American workers did not recieve a huge salary but they did get unemployment for seasonal layoff. They filed for workers comp if injured. They also had family here to support which the alien work crews did not.
> It came down to the company could wiggle its way around most labor regulations while paying a salary that would not support a family living in this country. So the American crews just disappeared in a couple of year. They did not get recalled after the seasonal lay off and either retired or left the area.
> And these were legally admitted people. Illegals worked in places with even less protections at a rate that a store clerk would not.
> ...


Thank you - good explanation of what happened.

That's the way it started here, but they began bringing their families and then began getting welfare, even though they were working.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

MO_cows said:


> I do feel bad for them. What their parents did to them is shameful. However, giving them a free pass to citizenship is like saying if my parents robbed a bank, it wasn't my fault and I'm such a good person so I should get to keep the money.


That's it.

We don't not put parents in prison who break the law - because they have children.

We often go through a town they call 'jailtown'. It has several prisons - mostly - maybe all now - women's prisons. 

The saddest thing is seeing those playgrounds they have for children when they come to visit their mothers.

These children, or adults, will have an education or the start of one. Mexico is on the upswing, considered a good investment for the money people. There will be opportunities for them in Mexico.

People talk as if we were banishing them to the nether regions of a foreign country.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

MO_cows said:


> I do feel bad for them. What their parents did to them is shameful. However, giving them a free pass to citizenship is like saying if my parents robbed a bank, it wasn't my fault and I'm such a good person so I should get to keep the money.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> Remember that the number that actually use a stolen ss number is almost insigificant to the number of illegals actually here! And while there may be a huge pile of cash in that fund, money from it is supposed to go to the original owner of that number, so the fund size really is significantly lower. I always thought the government put that money in the general fund.


You sure don't know much about SS.
Why not try doing a little research so you will know a little about what you are talking about.
If there is any question about a SS number no one gets any money back. Not the original owner of the number or anyone who has used the number.

Please do a little research before making statements that show you know very little about the subject.


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

Here's a fun tidbit... If you own a house built within the past 20 years, and were amazed you could get as much house as you got for the money, it's almost 100% likely an illegal helped in the construction.

If you buy apples or lettuce or any other manner of produce at the grocery store, you can thank an illegal, as again it's highly likely they picked the produce.

If you buy chicken wings or whole chickens or ground beef or steak, you can thank an illegal ~ from the slaughter to the cleaning to the processing to the packing.

If you work in an office and marvel at how it gets cleaned each night, there's a good chance you can thank an illegal ~ working while you sleep.

In fact, across a whole myriad of industries and service sectors, it's quite possible that there are people who, while not in possession of papers, are working their tails off and trying to put out a good quality product... oftentimes for people that show them very little respect... but still they show up each day or night and get right back to work.

Sure, some come here to take advantage, or to engage in criminal activity, but the vast majority simply want to make money and make a better life for their families ~ whether here or back home. Is that really so bad?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

JeffreyD said:


> How do i know who hires them?


Its kinda hard to tell everytime, but if it involves fruit or veggies produced in the USA... theres a pretty good chance that there were some undocumented workers involved somewhere along the line.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Just about everyone on this forum came from people who thought just like the illegals.
They wanted a better life for their family.
Their ancestors were not welcomed with open arms.
They came anyway.
The U.S. has a long history of wanting cheap labor. Doesn't matter who it is or where they are from. As long as it is cheap labor.
Everyone benefits from it. From the company who hires the cheap labor to the people who buy the product.

If you are a person who lost a job to an illegal you didn't really have a job. You were just taking up space until they could find a real worker.
If you want the illegals gone go out and take the job they are working at.
If you won't work such a job for the pay get out of the way for a person who will.
You will probably do a better job setting at home collect govt. benefits anyway.


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## bowdonkey (Oct 6, 2007)

pancho said:


> Just about everyone on this forum came from people who thought just like the illegals.
> They wanted a better life for their family.
> Their ancestors were not welcomed with open arms.
> They came anyway.
> ...


LMAO, this ought to raise some hackles!


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

Warwalk said:


> Sure, some come here to take advantage, or to engage in criminal activity, but the vast majority simply want to make money and make a better life for their families ~ whether here or back home. Is that really so bad?


Why yes it is. It's as if you, as a hard working man, found yourself transported to Mumbai with only your body to earn a living. You may work hard hard hard but what you will be able to earn is a bare bones level of food and shelter and clothing. Because there are hundreds of people to compete for every job, most of them willing to undercut you a bit more to take the work away from you. 
If you wish to provide more than starvation wages for your family, your labor will have to have a value that provides that more. Illegal immigration is the person being willing to undercut your income and thereby get the job. Here that is still better for them than at home, but it means you must cut your standard of living to compete. Eventually everyone will have the same lower standard while so many in the country complain and try to tax non-existant wages into still providing what the previous generation had. We will all be living at the Mumbai levels.
Then there is the horrible effect of entering the country illegally and thinkng yourself noble for doing so. Soon most laws are seen as something to be ignored and any attempt to impose regulation as "anti-immigrant sentiment." 
Right now we have a substantial proportion of the population who thinks that all of their relatives have a basic human right to treat the US borders as non-existant, at least for incoming.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

pancho said:


> Just about everyone on this forum came from people who thought just like the illegals.
> They wanted a better life for their family.
> Their ancestors were not welcomed with open arms.
> They came anyway.
> ...


Apples to oranges. Most of our immigrant ancestors didn't sneak into the country. They followed the rules of their time. 

There is a whole wide world in between illegals working cheap for cash under the table and someone sitting home drawing benefits off the taxpayers. Like people who work hard but still qualify for subsidies because they don't make enough money to live on. Maybe because they are competing with illegal aliens who have 3rd world standards.

And this one is over the top:
_If you are a person who lost a job to an illegal you didn't really have a job. You were just taking up space until they could find a real worker._

Really? In your world there aren't any unscrupulous people who would screw over their workers and use illegals just to put more money in their own pocket?


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## Home Harvest (Oct 10, 2006)

Here's the ugly truth. For a generation we have looked the other way while these immigrants snuck in. Regardless how they got here, they got here. They've been working, and raising families. 

I have an adopted sister who married an illegal, well he wasn't illegal until his work visa expired and he didn't choose to leave his wife and daughter behind. He's a VERY nice guy who works his butt off as a chef in a big restaurant. He makes good money. They are divorced now (my sister is an idiot), but he's a very good father, and his little girl is American. I see no reason to deport people like him. He shouldn't get a free pass, but there needs to be a path. 

For a generation we've permitted these people to stay and make a life, now because of politics we want to yank the rug out from under them? It's not right. The same laws existed 15 or 20 years ago. Why weren't they enforced then? Why do they need to be enforced now?

Obama has offered a path. What's the alternative? There needs to be an alternative!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

MO_cows said:


> Apples to oranges. Most of our immigrant ancestors didn't sneak into the country. They followed the rules of their time.


No, most of our ancestors came into the country any way they could. Usually killed the people who were already here and took over their lands.
Then they made the laws they wanted. Then their children spent the rest of their lives making it hard for people to do the same thing their ancestors did.
Except for the part about killing the local people and taking their land.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Home Harvest said:


> Here's the ugly truth. For a generation we have looked the other way while these immigrants snuck in. Regardless how they got here, they got here. They've been working, and raising families.
> 
> I have an adopted sister who married an illegal, well he wasn't illegal until his work visa expired and he didn't choose to leave his wife and daughter behind. He's a VERY nice guy who works his butt off as a chef in a big restaurant. He makes good money. They are divorced now (my sister is an idiot), but he's a very good father, and his little girl is American. I see no reason to deport people like him. He shouldn't get a free pass, but there needs to be a path.
> 
> ...


Does he send his check back to Mexico or whatever country he is from?


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## Home Harvest (Oct 10, 2006)

haypoint said:


> Does he send his check back to Mexico or whatever country he is from?


Well, first he's Dominican, since you asked. He lives and works here. He pays rent. He pays for all his daughter's expenses. I know his mother lives in the Domican Republic, because she has visited. He may help her out, but I honestly have no idea what he does with his money. Then again, I have no idea what anyone does with their money. It doesn't normally come up in casual conversation.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

haypoint said:


> Does he send his check back to Mexico or whatever country he is from?


What business is it of yours.
He works for his money he can do with it what he wants.
Would you be so free to let me tell you how and where you could spend your money?


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

pancho said:


> No, most of our ancestors came into the country any way they could. Usually killed the people who were already here and took over their lands.
> Then they made the laws they wanted. Then their children spent the rest of their lives making it hard for people to do the same thing their ancestors did.
> Except for the part about killing the local people and taking their land.


No mention of the indiginious people taking land from other tribes they concord? It's always been that way!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> No mention of the indiginious people taking land from other tribes they concord? It's always been that way!


What is the problem with the illegals then?
They are only doing what everyone has been doing.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

pancho said:


> What business is it of yours.
> He works for his money he can do with it what he wants.
> Would you be so free to let me tell you how and where you could spend your money?


That's exactly what the government does right now!


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

@Mo_Cows ~ Most of our ancestors didn't sneak into this country? Lolzzzzz... Most of ~my~ ancestors just showed up and said "it's my land now" *dun dun DUUUN! (much to the dismay of the natives who were already living here and in many cases were willing to share it.) So, we drove them west. Then signed a treaty. Then didn't like the treaty. So we broke our word and drove em west further still. Rinse and repeat.

My ancestors (the white men) pretty much killed all the red men so we could enslave and bring in the black man to work our lands and then brought in the yellow man to build our railroads, and then once things got a little more civilized brought in the brown man to take care of other things... But, what's happening is, these other colors are saying "we'd like a piece of all that prosperity too". And that's freaking a looootta looootta white people out. And they talk about how "this country's changing" with a sound of foreboding in their voices. But it shouldn't be foreboding. It's a cool time, a good time. There are more foods to eat, more ideas to hear, more folks to date then... well, then ever before. And I don't see that as bad. I see it as good.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Home Harvest said:


> Here's the ugly truth. For a generation we have looked the other way while these immigrants snuck in. Regardless how they got here, they got here. They've been working, and raising families.
> 
> I have an adopted sister who married an illegal, well he wasn't illegal until his work visa expired and he didn't choose to leave his wife and daughter behind. He's a VERY nice guy who works his butt off as a chef in a big restaurant. He makes good money. They are divorced now (my sister is an idiot), but he's a very good father, and his little girl is American. I see no reason to deport people like him. He shouldn't get a free pass, but there needs to be a path.
> 
> ...


There are laws that one can follow to become a citizen. The laws have been in place for decades. The alternative is just to follow exisiting laws! We already tried amnisty, the govenment lied to the people about upholding their promise to control the borders. Thecitizens shouldn't be punished for the governments ineptitude. Those that made promises should be sent to prison for the damage they caused.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

pancho said:


> What is the problem with the illegals then?
> They are only doing what everyone has been doing.



We are a nation of laws, they broke the law. Everyone else didn't. Hope that's not to hard to understand!


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Warwalk said:


> @Mo_Cows ~ Most of our ancestors didn't sneak into this country? Lolzzzzz... Most of ~my~ ancestors just showed up and said "it's my land now" *dun dun DUUUN! (much to the dismay of the natives who were already living here and in many cases were willing to share it.) So, we drove them west. Then signed a treaty. Then didn't like the treaty. So we broke our word and drove em west further still. Rinse and repeat.
> 
> My ancestors (the white men) pretty much killed all the red men so we could enslave and bring in the black man to work our lands and then brought in the yellow man to build our railroads, and then once things got a little more civilized brought in the brown man to take care of other things... But, what's happening is, these other colors are saying "we'd like a piece of all that prosperity too". And that's freaking a looootta looootta white people out. And they talk about how "this country's changing" with a sound of foreboding in their voices. But it shouldn't be foreboding. It's a cool time, a good time. There are more foods to eat, more ideas to hear, more folks to date then... well, then ever before. And I don't see that as bad. I see it as good.


You didn't mention the Irish slaves brought over before the blacks!


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Warwalk said:


> @Mo_Cows ~ Most of our ancestors didn't sneak into this country? Lolzzzzz... Most of ~my~ ancestors just showed up and said "it's my land now" *dun dun DUUUN! (much to the dismay of the natives who were already living here and in many cases were willing to share it.) So, we drove them west. Then signed a treaty. Then didn't like the treaty. So we broke our word and drove em west further still. Rinse and repeat.
> 
> My ancestors (the white men) pretty much killed all the red men so we could enslave and bring in the black man to work our lands and then brought in the yellow man to build our railroads, and then once things got a little more civilized brought in the brown man to take care of other things... But, what's happening is, these other colors are saying "we'd like a piece of all that prosperity too". And that's freaking a looootta looootta white people out. And they talk about how "this country's changing" with a sound of foreboding in their voices. But it shouldn't be foreboding. It's a cool time, a good time. There are more foods to eat, more ideas to hear, more folks to date then... well, then ever before. And I don't see that as bad. I see it as good.


I have ancestors who were native North Americans, too. But the European side I am also descended from DID come here legally, we know, records were found on a geneology search. You can speak for your own ancestors.

Golly, does it take a wheelbarrow or just a backpack to tote around all that white guilt? I think whites should acknowledge our history and learn from it, of course, but why beat ourselves up over it 10 generations later. I also think in more recent years, white America has atoned for its sins pretty well with advances in equal rights and generally a much higher level of "enlightenment" in the public. I have seen significant improvement in my own lifetime in attitudes about other ethnic groups and races. So, I choose to be proud of that instead of trash talking the ancestors. 

I do think we need to keep a generous quota open for LEGAL immigration and keep adding to the melting pot. My problem is with illegal immigration only. Saying it is OK for people to sneak across the southern border because they "just want a better life", is like me saying I should sneak in and take over my neighbor's house because it is so much nicer than mine. Hey, I just want a better life!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

MO_cows said:


> I have ancestors who were native North Americans, too. But the European side I am also descended from DID come here legally, we know, records were found on a geneology search. You can speak for your own ancestors.


Don't you think that is a stretch?
How is it possible for your ancestors to come here legally when the people who made the laws were criminals themselves?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> We are a nation of laws, they broke the law. Everyone else didn't. Hope that's not to hard to understand!


Sort of hard to break the laws when it is the criminals who decide what is the law.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

pancho said:


> Sort of hard to break the laws when it is the criminals who decide what is the law.


If a person does not break the law, they are not a criminal, whether they are immoral or not. 

If only giving a path to citizenship would end the illegal immigrant issue. It won't-at best it makes a larger lobby group of former illegals to protest and cover the next wave of illegals.

There is only one way to end mass illegal immigration and that is to make employer financially and criminally responsible for illegals. But of course that is not to be allowed because some Americans might get caught up it it- as if that is true for everyone all the time.

Why would you choose to use the awful effects of Eureopean mass immigration on native peoples as support to allow the latest wave of people to do the same to us now? I think we might have learned something from that.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

pancho said:


> Isn't that what people have been saying for years.
> If there is any question about a SS number all of the taxes collect from that SS number goes into a special account.
> 
> Say 12 illegals use the same SS number. Everybody says it happens all of the time. When SS collects taxes from all 12 illegals they keep every cent of it. It goes into a special fund.
> ...


Yep it does and then the notice is sent to a SSA employee who tries to figure out whose earning those are, she sends notices to the best address for the true owner of the number- which might take a bit of work because there is not automatice address update to social security. It usually means contacting the most recent employer.
So then a letter is sent to the true owner of the number, who hustles into social security in a panic. Are people suing his SSN to open credit cards for which he will recieve the bill? He wants to change his number to protect himself- only to be told he can't.
So then another SSA employee gets statement from the owner over which earnings are his and which are not. Several requests may go out before that is either resolved or not.
Then the SSA emplyee spends hours removing earnings so that only the correct earnings are left.
Then comes the real kicker- contacting to employer who allowed multiple people to use the same SSN. And that employer is going to rush to help straighten out them mess so he can open himself up to being responsible. And when the laughing stops and several attempts have been made to get it resolved, and a final notice is sent to the employer, then the earnings end up in a holding file. Which can then be reopened when amnesty for the person who misused the number is granted his green card. 


All of the time and money spent to resolve this is lost and taxes will never be collected because it will need legal action to do it and that will not be even thought about initiating by the government unless a minimum of a hundred thousand dollars is involved. Court cases cost big time.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

where I want to said:


> Why would you choose to use the awful effects of Eureopean mass immigration on native peoples as support to allow the latest wave of people to do the same to us now? I think we might have learned something from that.


I don't see much difference.
Europeans came to this country, killed many of the native people and stole their lands.
Now these same people decide they do not wanting others to come to this country even though they are only looking for a better life.
It would seem like the illegals have much better morals that the Europeans.


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## doodlemom (Apr 4, 2006)

Our president wants a taxpayer federally funded financial aid and scholarship program put in place for illegal immigrants. This is currently in the works in NY and here's reference to California. To support this kind of robbery is insane.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_DREAM_Act


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

Yes, it is really so bad if it means our country and our people are harmed by it. It really matters.

You do know that the true cost of products produced, etc., by illegals isn't reflected at the check out stand.

I realize this is a popular bit of spin the media has been putting out for many, many years. We always need to look closely when they give us this 'information'.

How much are they costing us

in welfare?

In education? Not only in money, but in dimished education for our children.

In added insurance premiums here in Texas? 

In lost jobs to Americans? In lost taxes? 

In money siphoned off our economy and returned to Mexico?

They there are the intangibles. How about - 

The fact that the rule of law means nothing in this country - 

The fact that American citizenship is not cheapened and really means nothing.


The fact that our country is full of people who have shown total disrespect for our country, our laws and our people.

These are by no means all the costs of illegals 

Kinda runs the price of that head of lettuce up a little, doesn't it.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

pancho said:


> I don't see much difference.
> Europeans came to this country, killed many of the native people and stole their lands.
> Now these same people decide they do not wanting others to come to this country even though they are only looking for a better life.
> It would seem like the illegals have much better morals that the Europeans.


In the analogy you make, the illegals are the Europeans of yesteryear. We have probably not reached the annihilation state in most places, I would not swear it was not going on in southern California and along the border elsewhere.

It would be nice for those of us here now to keep the example set for Indians from outr door. I am not my great,great,great, etc grandfathers keeper. I am my children's.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

pancho said:


> Sort of hard to break the laws when it is the criminals who decide what is the law.


Our immigration laws are pretty clear. If you don't like the law, work to change them. Who were the criminals who made our immigration laws? Why are they criminals?


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## doodlemom (Apr 4, 2006)

I am certain a flood of state/federally funded amnesty benefit/promotion/assistance program bills will follow.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

pancho said:


> Just about everyone on this forum came from people who thought just like the illegals.
> They wanted a better life for their family.
> Their ancestors were not welcomed with open arms.
> They came anyway.
> ...



My goodness, how did this country survive in this century without this horde of illegals? I mean we must have just been a mess, right? 

I can't believe that we had a descent country as we did without them.

That is just so untrue. Those who know the situation know it is. Those who don't - please don't believe it.

But the worst part is the fact it is being spread - it will be used to give citizenship and you aren't going to like what you get.

Illegals are cheap, subsidized labor. The government pays their healthcare, housing and food. They don't demand employer collect and match taxes.

Now tell me again how if an American wants a job he will get it over an illegal?

Good grief!!


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> Our immigration laws are pretty clear. If you don't like the law, work to change them. Who were the criminals who made our immigration laws? Why are they criminals?


Why should anyone work to change the laws when they are not enforced?
With millions of illegals living and working in the U.S. it looks like there is no immigration laws.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

where I want to said:


> In the analogy you make, the illegals are the Europeans of yesteryear. We have probably not reached the annihilation state in most places, I would not swear it was not going on in southern California and along the border elsewhere.
> 
> It would be nice for those of us here now to keep the example set for Indians from outr door. I am not my great,great,great, etc grandfathers keeper. I am my children's.



Good point.

We have just about reached the annihilation stage in Texas. It may not be quite the same as California. When amnesty is passed and the illegals in Texas get the vote, we are in for a heap of trouble.

It bothers me that people are spreading misinformation on something so very important to the very life of this country.

I'm trying to understand why they would. What are they going to get from helping to destroy the future of this country - and our children.


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## Yldrosie (Jan 28, 2006)

Demography is destiny. Pick your country, they will all be here soon.


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## doodlemom (Apr 4, 2006)

Why do you need a federally funded scholarship if you're here to pick lettuce? You people are not painting a realistic picture of the many illegals who are city folk here for what they can get and wanting more.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

pancho said:


> I don't see much difference.
> Europeans came to this country, killed many of the native people and stole their lands.
> Now these same people decide they do not wanting others to come to this country even though they are only looking for a better life.
> It would seem like the illegals have much better morals that the Europeans.


The people who were here, stole their land too! The tribes were not a peacefull wonderfull group. They were vicious, mean, thugs who took what they didn5 have from those that did. Like our government! Some tribes were nice to the European's, most were not! Read up on some American history, it will give you a correct perspective on reality!


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

pancho said:


> What business is it of yours.
> He works for his money he can do with it what he wants.
> Would you be so free to let me tell you how and where you could spend your money?


I don't care how you spend you money if you are here legal.

I don't care how you spend you money if you aren't taking mine for your food, housing, healthcare and education for your children. 

All this pretense that the illegal situation is no different than just ordinary citizen, really makes no sense - none at all.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

It was on the news this morning.
By 2014 Mexicans will be in the majority in Calif.
White people will be a minority.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> The people who were here, stole their land too! The tribes were not a peacefull wonderfull group. They were vicious, mean, thugs who took what they didn5 have from those that did. Like our government! Some tribes were nice to the European's, most were not! Read up on some American history, it will give you a correct perspective on reality!


Who did they steal the land from?
Have you ever read the true history of the pilgrims?


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

pancho said:


> It was on the news this morning.
> By 2014 Mexicans will be in the majority in Calif.
> White people will be a minority.


It might be noted that some Mexicans are as white as can be. 

I guess I became seriously worried over uncontrolled immigration when I kept seeing Mexican flags waived at every immigration rally. Not US flags- it hit me one day that most of these people did not want to join me as an American. They wanted me out of what they think of as their land.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

pancho said:


> Who did they steal the land from?
> Have you ever read the true history of the pilgrims?


Other native people! I studied history! Some need a refresher course! If you don't know about the wars between native tribes, you need to read up on them. Tribes considered themselves as indipendant nations, and took land they won in battle. How is that any different than your analogy?


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

You know people are trying to justify this travesty by pointing to the past. 

The past isn't something we should relive - it's something we should learn from - 

The place history has in this discussion is to show us exactly what happens when you don't - or can't - protect yourselves. We have seen people loose their lives, land, futures because someone invades, because government sells them out, etc.

Let that be our lesson from the past - 

Don't let someone tell you that you should accept this invasion and take over - or that you should roll over and accept it - because bad things have happened in the past.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

pancho said:


> It was on the news this morning.
> By 2014 Mexicans will be in the majority in Calif.
> White people will be a minority.


Not news here! The problem is, is that many with money are leaving and that will only increase the burdon on those that remane. Soon, California won't be able to collect enough to run the state! Oooops, were already there! Glad were in the process of leaving. One company down, 3 to go! It's gonna get ugly when those that don't have, can't have because the state is bankrupt(already there). California could be the leader like it used to, but the liberals desided that they wanted to sacrafice California for votes, just like Obama.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

where I want to said:


> It might be noted that some Mexicans are as white as can be.
> 
> I guess I became seriously worried over uncontrolled immigration when I kept seeing Mexican flags waived at every immigration rally. Not US flags- it hit me one day that most of these people did not want to join me as an American. They wanted me out of what they think of as their land.


Anglos may very well be in the minority in Texas already - if not now - very soon.

Actually, though, in Texas Mexicans are listed as white. I noticed that when looking at some child molester sites.

When they marched in the streets, they held our flags upside down, drug it on the ground, in general disrespected it.

They got so much flak, the next one, they did hold it right.

I have been concerned for a very long time - but then I've been around so many and heard so many snatches of conversation.

There is much more involved than just economics - 

Or all the touchy feely - 'just looking for a better life'.


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

Originally Posted by pancho 
It was on the news this morning.
By 2014 Mexicans will be in the majority in Calif.
White people will be a minority.

okay, then what?


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

reply to post#145

quote
I don't see much difference.
Europeans came to this country, killed many of the native people and stole their lands.
Now these same people decide they do not wanting others to come to this country even though they are only looking for a better life.
It would seem like the illegals have much better morals that the Europeans.


You don't see much difference? Odd. 
Lets see, the Europeans came to a continent that was Wilderness from sea to shining sea, inhabited by limited numbers of stone age people. WE can argue now for hrs if a whole continent should be set aside so a few Million, if that many, stone age people can continue their lives as mostly hunters and gatherers. It was the Europeans who built this country and the whole world is enjoying the fruits of their industriousness and ingenuity. From my using a washing machine, flying home every year, to you using a computer. No need to enumerate here. 
so please explain, how is the invasion of the present illegals the same? 
And please explain how the illegals have better morals.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

Tabitha said:


> Originally Posted by pancho
> It was on the news this morning.
> By 2014 Mexicans will be in the majority in Calif.
> White people will be a minority.
> ...


I'll jump in - and just opinions or thoughts

I think this country will have a large number of voters who do not have a love of the country or a sense of what it is about. 

I think our politicians will pander to the hispanics. Well, they already are and some are falling for the idea 'we need to attract Hispanic voters'. They don't realize they may win an election, but loose their country.

I think there will be enough Hispanic voters to represent the 'swing vote' and they are going to be much more unified than Americans. I don't think they will allow politicians to divide them as we do. That way, they could actually decide the elections of this country.

I think there is a possibility there will be a idea put forth that we form a union between countries. It may be the North American Union, or may be the ones Pres. Bush envisioned - from, and including Canada to the tip of South America.

Then there is the issue of 'native born' for the presidency. I think that will be changed. We already have Ted Cruz mentioned as presidential material. His mother was a citizen, his father was not and he was born in Canada.

It's going to be interesting if he does make a run to see hard core republicans on the idea of native born. The explanations, excuses, etc., should be entertaining.

Then, of course, there is Aztlan - --


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## doodlemom (Apr 4, 2006)

There are a lot of houses for sale in Comton, CA
http://www.lasentinel.net/index.php...o-to-hate-crimes&catid=81:national&Itemid=171
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/220107mexicangangs.htm


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

doodlemom said:


> There are a lot of houses for sale in Comton, CA
> http://www.lasentinel.net/index.php...o-to-hate-crimes&catid=81:national&Itemid=171
> http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/220107mexicangangs.htm


Wow!! That's scary.

<<<<Neo-Nazi liberation theology known as La Raza, >>>>>>

Boy, he didn't pull any punches about LaRaza, did he?

That's an organization people should learn more about. They are evidently getting a big chunk of our taxpayer dollars.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

Our local illegal population is probably reducing right now. A hispanic apartment complex in a nearby town is having another parking lot fight with clubs guns and knives and officers and deputies are responding.

Every time they have a fight there they get drug offenders, illegal weapon offenders and at least a few non documented and they all end up going to the jail or deportation holding facility for no visa or violation of terms of visa.


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## JeffreyD (Dec 27, 2006)

Trixie said:


> Wow!! That's scary.
> 
> <<<<Neo-Nazi liberation theology known as La Raza, >>>>>>
> 
> ...


Our mayor, Villarigosa(Villar) is a big la raza guy. Mecha I think too. Were also a sanctuary city and the police chief Beck, refuses to follow state law and impound vehicles drivin by unlicenced illigal aliens because it's a "hard ship" to them. Yet mayor idiot Villar is supposed to be the mass transit king of the world. He will be the new federal transit guy. He's a huge pile of steaminess. To bad for the country in his new position with the fed, cause he really, really sucked at being a mayor. He ran unions too! Jerk!


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

JeffreyD said:


> Our mayor, Villarigosa(Villar) is a big la raza guy. Mecha I think too. Were also a sanctuary city and the police chief Beck, refuses to follow state law and impound vehicles drivin by unlicenced illigal aliens because it's a "hard ship" to them. Yet mayor idiot Villar is supposed to be the mass transit king of the world. He will be the new federal transit guy. He's a huge pile of steaminess. To bad for the country in his new position with the fed, cause he really, really sucked at being a mayor. He ran unions too! Jerk!


Well, Texas has it share of sanctuary cities as well.

The law enforcement just looks the other way, they don't even stop them, here.

I know there are jobs in Texas now, and I'm always a Texan, but it is turning into something I don't even recognize. 

Our youngest grandchild, when 4, spent some time with us. Our son was working in Dallas and we were taking our grandson to his daddy.

We got kinda lost trying to find where he was working and drove through a part of Dallas where there are lots of illegals living. It looks like a Mexican border town. It really did and there was Mexican music playing on loud speakers. The shops had all the Mexican products hanging and sitting outside. 


As we drove through, our grandson just took it all in, after a while he said, 'Grumpy!!! This is NOT the way to my house!'

I know how he felt. The thing is, I don't know where to go, it seems they are everywhere and it seems everyone is so very happy to make excuses, aid and abet them - from the local government to the people. I don't understand that. It seem suicidal to me.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Change and assimilation of immigrant cultures rarely happens overnight. Chinatowns exist in many large cities and if you get off the tourist streets you'll hear a lot of language you won't understand and see things culturally strange to most westerners. Milwaukee's German heritage is widely celebrated in Milwaukee an Wisconsin. There were more German language papers in Miwaukee than English for many years with the last major dailies disappearing in the 1930s. In 1889 Wisconsin passed the Bennett Law, repealed a couple of years later, to mandate teaching all classes in public and private schools in English only. Much of the assimilation was finally sped up by public reaction to the world wars. Find a real Irish pub in NY or Boston and see how welcome you are if you don't have an accent or can trace your ancestry to the right county. There are examples like this for almost all immigrant cultures in this country.
I'm not saying illeagal immigration isn't an issue and that there arent problems to be adressed, but that many of the language and culture issues are not new or specific to certain immigrant groups. As a country it has always been our diverse cultures that have lent a vibrancy not evident elsewhere in the world and which is what ultimately makes us a better country.


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## Tricky Grama (Oct 7, 2006)

pancho said:


> Why should anyone work to change the laws when they are not enforced?
> With millions of illegals living and working in the U.S. it looks like there is no immigration laws.


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## stanb999 (Jan 30, 2005)

To the op...

No reason to deport anyone. If a business is found to be employing illegals "knowingly". They are instantly and irrevocably shut down. Use sting operations, use irs filings, Use local police.

Then they would have no work.

Then they will walk home as they came.

Yes this is for farmers and their fruit pickers as well. I'm often told that the cost of food will rise. I say good. I produce food but can't make a profit due the cheap labor some farmers employ.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Tabitha said:


> Originally Posted by pancho
> It was on the news this morning.
> By 2014 Mexicans will be in the majority in Calif.
> White people will be a minority.
> ...


Then they can vote in who they want and make laws that they like.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Tabitha said:


> And please explain how the illegals have better morals.


They have not started grave robbing and canabilism.
Read the true story of the pilgrims.
You will see they did do both.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

pancho said:


> They have not started grave robbing and canabilism.
> Read the true story of the pilgrims.
> You will see they did do both.




Geez, Pancho, you're better than that. I can't do anything about what happened three hundred years ago. Even if I could, I don't think that my solutions would be any better. Hitting people over the head with dead wood is not going to fix the current problems. 

I am here because those people immigrated- I have noted that the locals were ruthlessly shoved out of the way- not without some slaughter on their side too. This is human. And I have the benefit of those ruthless shovers. I am not going to ever say that I wish they had stayed home, even though I can understand those who have lost place would think that.

But I should learn from that that those who do not resist the loss of their culture at early stages are doomed to losse that culture. I don;t want the US turned into another Mexico where people who want to be my enemy are my neighbors.


I object to that and I object to the greedy people who get their lawns mowed cheaply due to illegals and I object to illegals picking fruit, etc and I am willing to pay more to avoid that from happening. Because once people are here, they are here- they can not just be shoved out.


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

pancho said:


> They have not started grave robbing and canabilism.
> .


You say they have not started? You mean they will?


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

pancho said:


> Then they can vote in who they want and make laws that they like.


Great. Then they have Mexico in Ca. Uh, then why did they leave Mexico in the first place? I thought the illegals come to have a better life here. What about the better life?


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

where I want to said:


> Geez, Pancho, you're better than that. I can't do anything about what happened three hundred years ago. Even if I could, I don't think that my solutions would be any better. Hitting people over the head with dead wood is not going to fix the current problems.
> 
> I am here because those people immigrated- I have noted that the locals were ruthlessly shoved out of the way- not without some slaughter on their side too. This is human. And I have the benefit of those ruthless shovers. I am not going to ever say that I wish they had stayed home, even though I can understand those who have lost place would think that.
> 
> ...


I used to be like some of the people posting on this thread. I was born in Oklahoma and lived in Texas and N. Mexico. There were always Mexicans around, some legal and some illegal.
My thoughts used to be the same, ship them all back. A couple of years ago someone told me something I couldn't believe. To prove them wrong I had to do quite a bit of research. There is a lot a person can learn if they are willing to look at both sides. People may not change their minds a bit but they can learn a little more about why we have illegals.

It is just hard for me to hate anybody that is doing what they can to make the life of their family better. I have worked along beside a lot of Mexicans. Most were hard working people. When I see people tell absolute lies I usually try to get them to research what they are saying before spreading it around. It really won't affect my life any if tomorrow every single illegal left the country and it will have the same affect if they get amnesty. I just like to hear the truth sometimes.


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

I need to tie up some loose ends. For those that have followed my posts, I've had just as many likes from those on one side as those on another. I need to put some of this all in a single thread for cohesion of subject.

Our hispanic brethren to the south (amongst many ethnic groups that come here illegally, but by far the highest in representation) have been arriving in our country for decades. This has not been based on one singular event, but it has been a long slow process, occurring over the course of a half century or more of administrations - both Democrat and Republican. They have at times and in certain areas been welcomed, and at other times despised. One generation was allowed amnesty, while another was branded as criminal, and here we are close to some form of a middle path, though even that is in question. We have the most powerful military in the world, with tens of thousands on border patrol, but yet we focus our attentions on a guy swinging a hammer and up to his eyeballs in work to sort out who is who. 

These people, for the most part, are good people. But they also come here illegally. They will not leave... at least, not of their own accord. The only way that we could make them leave would be to criminalize their activity to the point at which they would self-deport. And yet, even then, we would harm ourselves in doing so. I believe, to a degree, despite whatever difficulty, that unless we want our immigration system to become a farce, we must do just that. But ~ in doing so, we harm ourselves just as much as them. Children born here of illegals, "anchor babies" as some call them, allow for those that are illegal to remain, but by letting them remain we simply encourage more illegal immigration. The flip side though is, by forcing them to leave, we wreck the life of young children across a broad swath of this country in the name of... well, I don't know in the name of what. National security? Patriotism? American workers? I don't know.

The fault rests on our shoulders... our, being American consumers. Our, being American politicians of every stripe. 

If we are to act on illegal immigration, in some measure that will stop it for the future, we must first -secure our borders against further intrusion for once and for all (and it can be done), second -realize that there is a need for workers that will do certain jobs, and streamline the process and allow for dignity for that worker to arrive and work here, and provide an outlet so that they don't become a slave to their employer, third, -work through attrition to send back those that are here without papers, and fourth, -know that these are humans, in no way different from ourselves, save for a geographic misfortune to have not been born within our borders.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

It is impossible to secure a border that is so long, so many isolated areas and where people have so many places to go. Simply can't be done.
The argument that these are simply hard working folk is true for some, maybe many of the people who come here. There are certianly a lot of criminals that come too.
But that is not the issue. Some hard working Americans who can not pay all the required taxes and still support a family if they have to work at wages competitive with illegal workers deserve attention too. The person who can not run to Mexico when times get hard. 
Used to be that Americans working in meat packing plants earned a good livelihood for that hard, repetitive work. Had good benefits and a good retirement. Until the plant owners found that immigrants, mostly illegal, would do it for a lot less. 
A lot of service jobs that used to pay for college for students have gone the same way, warehouse work in a lot of places, etc etc.

You are right that too many greedy people benefit from illegals at the expense of their fellow citizens. So how does a rapsody of brotherly love for illegals do a thing to help stop illegal immigration from driving wages into the ground?


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

I don't think we could stop them all either. But we don't have to. If we were able to shut off 90% of the flow, while at the same time showing those that were previously undocumented that they could obtain a work visa in a matter of a few weeks with no more hassle than obtaining a driver's licence, I think things could sort themselves out. I've heard that the terrain is rough, but I'll put it thusly ~ Groom lake in the Nevada desert is a vast complex, and the terrain somewhat harsh, but I'm pretty sure people would have a tough time getting in there, no? I'm no expert with it all, but I just think that with some creativity and ingenuity the flow could be curbed.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

The flow could be slowed quite a bit if there was anyone who wanted to do that.
People should remember the minutemen of the past. It was their plan to stop the flow of illegals and build a fence. They took donations for a fence but everytime they got any money one of the higher ups would run off with the money.
Then people learned they were worse criminals than the illegals.


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

pancho said:


> The flow could be slowed quite a bit if there was anyone who wanted to do that.
> People should remember the minutemen of the past. It was their plan to stop the flow of illegals and build a fence. They took donations for a fence but everytime they got any money one of the higher ups would run off with the money.
> Then people learned they were worse criminals than the illegals.


This debate keeps focusing on the quality of humanity that comes here illegally. I imagine it is the ratio of bad and good as is already here. 
The real issue is the harm it does to the country that is overwhelmed with new people who come with their own agenda, which may be antithetical to the residents, and with no roots to create a sense of community with the current residents and, since they come by violating the local laws by definition, already create a culture of lawlessness. They compete with locals, drive down earnings for those people at the least.
BTW there are illegals who have committed mass murder, theft, mayhem, rape, etc etc etc. They may not be worse than the current residents but the idea that they are better is ridiculous. In fact, from my experience, people who find themselves in a foreign country without their family and friends to observe them, do tend to act worse than they would at home.
Talking about quality of humans is a diversion from the real problems.


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

where I want to said:


> It is impossible to secure a border that is so long, so many isolated areas and where people have so many places to go. Simply can't be done.


It can't?
I am sure you have heard of the great wall of China. 

The Romans also had walls that worked for a very long time, you may have heard of Hadrian's wall and the Limes. 
When you say it can't be done you are defeated. 
Please noone jump to the conclusion I am suggesting to build a wall.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

where I want to said:


> This debate keeps focusing on the quality of humanity that comes here illegally. I imagine it is the ratio of bad and good as is already here.
> The real issue is the harm it does to the country that is overwhelmed with new people who come with their own agenda, which may be antithetical to the residents, and with no roots to create a sense of community with the current residents and, since they come by violating the local laws by definition, already create a culture of lawlessness. They compete with locals, drive down earnings for those people at the least.
> BTW there are illegals who have committed mass murder, theft, mayhem, rape, etc etc etc. They may not be worse than the current residents but the idea that they are better is ridiculous. In fact, from my experience, people who find themselves in a foreign country without their family and friends to observe them, do tend to act worse than they would at home.
> Talking about quality of humans is a diversion from the real problems.


I agree completely with people acting different when they are in another country without their family. I can remember when I was in other countries and how most people acted who visited there.

Anyone who commits a crime should be treated just like any other person who committed the same crime, illegal or legal.


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## pancho (Oct 23, 2006)

Tabitha said:


> It can't?
> I am sure you have heard of the great wall of China.
> 
> The Romans also had walls that worked for a very long time, you may have heard of Hadrian's wall and the Limes.
> ...


Take a look at the people who built those walls.
For us to do the same thing there is a few laws we would have to break.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

Sending anchor babies home would cause them some problems. The fact is, however, these children have been raised in the Mexican culture - it isn't going to be that much of a shock to send them home.

Also, I find it odd they are complaining how unfair it would be to take their children 'away from their roots' - when many of them brought children with them when they came. They truly took them away from their roots and brought them here. Isn't it a little disingenuous to now complain because we want them to take their children, raised in their culture here, back to their homeland?

So what do we do? Are we supposed to wreck the lives and futures of American children? It really is that simple. Does the future of our children take precedence of foreign children -in our own country that is?


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

pancho said:


> Take a look at the people who built those walls.
> For us to do the same thing there is a few laws we would have to break.


Which ones -


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

where I want to said:


> This debate keeps focusing on the quality of humanity that comes here illegally. I imagine it is the ratio of bad and good as is already here.
> The real issue is the harm it does to the country that is overwhelmed with new people who come with their own agenda, which may be antithetical to the residents, and with no roots to create a sense of community with the current residents and, since they come by violating the local laws by definition, already create a culture of lawlessness. They compete with locals, drive down earnings for those people at the least.
> BTW there are illegals who have committed mass murder, theft, mayhem, rape, etc etc etc. They may not be worse than the current residents but the idea that they are better is ridiculous. In fact, from my experience, people who find themselves in a foreign country without their family and friends to observe them, do tend to act worse than they would at home.
> Talking about quality of humans is a diversion from the real problems.


Good points, and I agree to a point.

I don't know or really believe the ratio is the same as our society - but can't say for sure. 

Common sense would tell you,, though, if you could cross that border and suddenly have a clean record, you would be sorely tempted. The fact there is almost nothing stopping you and a friendly and generous government to keep you here, would be very attractive.

But the fact remains, we have plenty of miscreants of the home grown variety - we don't need to take on another country's problems.

I will say, though, I have encountered a lot of problems with stealing. I don't know if they steal in their own country or why, but they do.

When we used to do estate sales, it was a constant battle. Believe me, I am not lying when I tell you at least half the female illegals steal. They teach their children to steal. It actually took someone walking constantly around and seeing they didn't steal. Also, you had to have someone on their toes to tell them you realize the tags had been changed and the real price is _____.

You are right, they are definitely not 'better', although there are those who would bestow sainthood on them - makes no sense.


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## Warwalk (May 25, 2011)

I must admit ~ having worked personally with them for as long as I did, I did see the theft. And theft on a level that was amazing. But it was kind of a strange, contradictory sort of thing... I remember once I'd lost two tool-boxes filled with tools from my basement. I'd had a piece of black electrical tape across a crack on the top of one of the boxes. Well, one day my car broke down, and one of my guys let me borrow his car (very nice!)... but in the back seat area, on the floor, there was the tool box... tape missing, crack showing... you could see where the tape had been. I was kind of surprised. I've heard of this happening with other folks I knew as well.

It's funny, as they in many cases are very strong christians... and while they wouldn't dream of taking a dime from their brother or friend, don't always seem to have the same qualms with taking from a native born. I don't know why, and it always irked me. 

Also, there are certain quirks within their culture that are somewhat disturbing to me, such as the "Trientera's". I got to witness this first hand while dropping off a check one Saturday. Here's the picture for those that don't know: It's summertime, and their apartment is sweltering. The kids are running around, mamacita's in the kitchen cooking, and several guys are on a sofa watching football and drinking cheap beer. There's a knock at the door, and in walks some girl wearing a long coat (despite the heat), looking young but also older than she probably is. She goes straight to the bedroom, and one by one each guy gets up and goes in the room and comes out after about fifteen minutes. The guys will actually go knock on the neighbors door to let ~more~ guys know she's there. This goes on for awhile... six guys... eight. I didn't stay once I understood what was happening, so I never saw her come out, but apparently this is fairly common. Trientera ~ Or thirty dollar girl. Come one, come all. It's nasty, and kind of sad. And these girls do this all day long, one apartment after another.


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## Trixie (Aug 25, 2006)

I never had a problem with the men, but then we didn't deal much with men at our sales.

I can't tell you the number of garage sales I have gone to and some person would be crying. I always knew they had been 'hit' by illegals and had a lot of stolen stuff. One woman will take something to the cashier and keep saying 'One Dollar' or '25 cents', while others are stealing.

Sometimes they actually take the money box. I always keep my money in my pocket for that reason.

There was a park in a city here in Texas that was more of a botanical garden. It was full of exotic, unique plants. They began seeing plants dug up. They replaced them for a while, then decided to stake out the park to catch the thieves. They found illegals were digging them up, potting them, and taking them to flea markets in another city.

One lady told me her water bill tripled one month. She called the water department, they checked the meter and assured her it was fine. She hired a plumber and there was no leak, but it went on for a couple or three months. One day she came home early and found the houseful of illegals next door were running a car wash in their drive way, with a hose running to her outside faucet.

I saw a news story about a problem they 'just discovered' in one of our larger cities. They found a lot of people had just bypassed the water meters and were getting water for free.
Now I'm assuming that meant they got free sewer as well - and possibly free trash. When the reporter went to some of the houses, they always were met with 'no habla'. 
The city got tough, they fined them a whopping $50!!! One monthly bill for me for those services is $80.

A lot of people have been hurt badly - on a personal level - by this.

Someone tried to tell me, it was just their culture of 'sharing'. Somehow I don't think they would like me to 'share' their things.

It really hurt my husband when he realized all the things I had been saying were true. 

As for the 'girls', I didn't know that - it is sad. And they say illegals aren't taking American jobs!!!!! (joke).


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## Tabitha (Apr 10, 2006)

you do not steal from someone that you like and respect.


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