# breeding mini mares to drafts???



## lasergrl

I was browsing draft ponies for sale. I came across mini clyesdales. They were just lovely. However paying $5,000 for a weanling doesn't seem to make much sense to me right now. I was reading that these are first generation crosses of a Clyde stallion a.I. to hackneys and large minis.
A large mini bred to a Clyde?? Wow that seems crazy. Like the baby would have to nurse on its knees after a month  is this really something that is doable? The animals produced were stunning. They turned out about the size of a large haflinger.


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## Old Mission

Sounds like it would be impossible to give birth to!


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## mountainwmn

I have seen mini clydes, and mini drafts. They were always the result of a mini breeding program. I'm sure there are people willing to do anything, but that sure seems like the long way around when there are already drafty type ponies and minis out there. The only cross that I saw was the result of a mini stallion and a tb mare and was the ugliest pony I have ever seen in my life. He got her while she was laying down in case you're wondering how that happened in the first place.


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## simka2

This should never be done!!! Like another poster, I have seen draft ponies bred down in size to get a Draft mini. They can even have Clydesdale coloring, but that is way different than breeding a Clyde to a mini. Yikes!

Here is a similar discussion with some vets weighing in. http://forum.horsetopia.com/breeding-genetics/130403-infamous-shire-shetland-breeding-study.html#b


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## SFM in KY

I've bred small mares to large stallions before, often, with no problem and a lot of breeders actually do this in the sportpony world. It may seem odd, but there are no more problems of difficult foaling with the small mares than with 'same size' breedings. The size of the mare's uterus limits the size of the foal ... the foal will not/cannot get bigger than the uterus that it is developing in and that uterus is basically the size the mare is designed for. Foals out of small pony mares, whether sired by a pony of the same size or a 16 hand stallion, will be the same size at foaling. the ones by the big stallions will just grow faster ... and yes, it can be interesting to watch them nurse when they are nearly weaning age. I suspect most of the mares bred to the Clydesdale stallions are of Hackney or Shetland/Hackney breeding (actually many of the larger minis are from this kind of breeding as well). The smaller minis can have some dwarfish characteristics and can have more foaling problems under any circumstances than the Shetlands or Hackneys.

The biggest issue ... and this happens with same size breedings as well ... is the bone size. Foals tend to 'hang up' at shoulders or hips on the pelvic girdle and heavy boned stallions that tend to reproduce particularly heavy bone will more often sire foals that cause a higher than normal rate of foaling difficulties. Stallion owners often do know what a stallion is likely to produce in this respect and will often suggest to a mare owner that a particular stallion is not suitable for a smaller or refined mare.

I have two small pony mares myself that I will be breeding to warmblood or warmblood cross stallions, one is a Connemara/Hackney cross about 12 hands, the other a Welsh mare about the same size. Both are big bodied mares and should have no problems with foaling, though the stallions I have in mind are in teh 16 hand range and somewhat refined for warmbloods.

I've personally bred probably 10 or 12 small mares to significantly larger stallions over the years (some more than once) and have never had any foaling issues at all. I know of a number of other breeders who have probably produced a total of twice that many foals from similar breedings ... small pony mares crossed to 15.2 to 16.2 hands stallions. These are breeders I know well enough that I would know if they had mares that had difficult foaling and none of them did. 

Yes, you can have the occasional mare that has a difficult foaling when she is bred to a larger stallion, but from my personal knowledge and experience ... and that of most of the pony breeders I know ... it seems it is no more likely to occur with a small mare x large stallion breeding than with a breeding of a mare and stallion of similar size. It is generally the mal-presentation of a foal that presents foaling difficulties.


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## Oakshire_Farm

Years ago I bred my Shire stallion to a Arab pony mare, she foaled out a BEAUTIFUL colt! She had a easy birth, the foal was a good size, but she had no problems. We missed the birth, she was a maiden and showed no signs of being ready..... next morning had a colt all dried off and following her around. The following year she was bred to a Arab stallion, the result was a foal that was far to large for her, the foal died in the birth and she dies later that day, due to trauma from the birth. The owner was there for the second birth, vets were called in and nothing could be done to save either the foal or mare. 

Breeding is a crap shoot! You never know what is going to happen. But I do not believe that AI'ing to a larger stallion is going to make the birth any harder on the mare.


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## lasergrl

SFM do you A.I. the smaller ponies or are they live covered by the bigger boys?
I guess my mind is wandering. I have an 11 year old 36" tank of a mini that is more old style Shetland. Very drafty herself, very big boned. Would be nice to get a riding sized fancy horse out of her but not if its a completely off the wall thing to do. I'm sure the expense of the semen and vet visits is enough alone to make it unlikely. She came bred to a surprise stallion for the summer so that will be interesting in itself.
Boy those clyde ponies are something though!


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## ShyAnne

The breeders that I know that breed for sport ponies use a smaller stallion, bred to a larger mare. Ive crossed mini stallions to larger mare and has some terrific foals. 
It depends on the cross, what your desired outcome is. 
I have seen pony crossed to larger mares that throw horrific looking larger ponies too....
Personally I would never cross a large stallion to a smaller mare... But thats me.
I personally like the Sec A welsh bred to Larger mares for the sport ponies. 
I have a gorgeous reg sec A stallion covering some Arabians this year...:


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## SFM in KY

lasergrl said:


> SFM do you A.I. the smaller ponies or are they live covered by the bigger boys?


I A.I. but then I've done A.I. myself for 20 years. When I started out in the early 90s I didn't have regular help and it wasn't always possible to have the vet there (equine vet, big area to cover, wasn't always available) so I simply learned to do it myself. I also didn't always have anyone to assist for live cover and it is much easier/safer for one person to handle the stallion and the mare separately ... just one horse to dodge at a time!

Anyway, A.I. has gotten much easier and reliable in the last 20 years. Now that I no longer feel comfortable keeping and handling the big stallions, I breed to outside stallions when I need a bigger stallion. With P & E and shipped semen it's no problem. With P & E you can just about breed by the numbers and have as good a shot at a pregnancy as with live cover. And here on the farm, I'm often breeding the bigger mares to small stallions so again, A.I. is a necessity.

With your little mare, I'd see no problem at all breeding her to something refined up to 14 or 15 hands. I've got two 12 hand pony mares that will be going (eventually, anyway) to the 16 hand Weltstern son that stands in VA.


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## SFM in KY

ShyAnne said:


> I have a gorgeous reg sec A stallion covering some Arabians this year...:


The Welsh/Arab crosses have always produced some lovely hunter ponies. A friend of mine recently sold a really nice gelding to a show home up in Michigan.

I think the mare/stallion thing pretty much depends on what a person has for mares. If you have bigger mares you breed to a small stallion ... those that have pony mares look for a refined, smaller warmblood stallion.

A lot of the European sportponies have a lot of the small Welsh stallions crossed on warmblood mares, but then they have a really big base of warmblood mares. I see more of the American breeders crossing small pony mares to the European sportpony stallions, who tend to be 14 to 15 hands or to the smaller, more refined warmblood stallions because they tend to have the pony mares already.

I know the 12 hand Welsh mare I bought this last fall is only 12 hands, but she has been approved/licensed with Weser-Ems and has been bred to German sportpony stallions before I got her.


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## akane

We covered in my repro classes that breeding a mare and stallion more than a hand difference in height tended to just give a foal about the height of the mare depending on her genetics without gaining or losing much height if that is your goal. I do not know if that applies to extremes like this though. We were discussing it for situations like breeding 2 sport horses to make a slightly taller jumper or 2 poa or mini to make a slightly smaller pony where both have similar size of no more than 2-3 hands differences and the background of each horse/pony contains similar sized animals to the one you are breeding.

I have 2 different experiences of my own. We had an accidental breeding of a 16h paint stallion cryptorchid (owner said he couldn't breed) cover my 12h amish mixed blood pony and got a paint pony only slightly taller than the mare with no birthing issues but the stallion was fairly lanky and not broad. His owner gelded him and sold him because he didn't match the bulldog quarter look popular at the time. Another time we had a stocky 13.3h mare I showed as a quarter pony we tried to breed to different stocky 14.2-15h stallions and while the foals came out what would be normal for a 13-14h mare the shoulders were way too broad. We found the first dead after it tore through her uterus. 2years later after making sure everything was all healed up we tried again and this one we watched carefully but despite being there from the moment everything started it jammed so thoroughly with the shoulders that we just couldn't get it out. Finally with chains, 2 people pulling, and 1 shifting things around we got the foal out dead and saved the mare. Sold her with a warning and the new buyers also tried twice with a shorter but still stocky stallion looking for that quarter horse halter look at the time and lost both because they couldn't get them out fast enough due to jammed shoulders. The mare went on to have a great halter and horsemanship quarter pony career but never did produce.

I think build plays a bigger part than height. With more normal crosses (again I don't know what such extremes as draft x mini would do) the difference is not a big deal and the foal just follows the mare's genetics provided the shoulders are not too big. Crossing really broad horses though even if they aren't much different in height can cause big problems.


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## SFM in KY

With the majority of crossbred foals I've bred, most of the offspring of small x large breedings, a general rule of thumb seems to be that the foals will mature roughly halfway between the height of the two, with a couple of inches either way.

I have found that if the mare is the bigger one, those foals will tend to be on the high end of the halfway height ... if the mare is the smaller one, those foals will usually end up in the lower end of the halfway height.

There are always individual differences as well, of course. I have had a couple of mares that reproduced their height most of the time regardless of what they were bred to and I have had stallions that tended to reproduce their size regardless of the mare's size as well. Those individual quirks can be very odd ... had one small warmblood mare about 15.1 hands that was never bred to a stallion less than 16 hands and only one out of her 5 foals reached 16 hands and that was a gelding by a 16.3 hand stallion. Also had a 16 hand APHA stallion I bred to a number of TB and warmblood mares who repeatedly produced fillies that were 16 hands or more quite consistently but I don't know of any of his colts that ever got over 15 to 15.2 hands.


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## 1sttimemom

I remember reading about studies done a long time ago where they bred draft stallions to shetland mares. The results were healthy foals with no increase of birth issues. The foals just grew bigger after they were born. 

I have a reg'd shetland mare. She is a normal average size and is a "classic". I was just looking at her today and either she is EXTREMELY fat/round or she is possibly bred to our young Morgan stallion. This little mare is qute eager when in heat and we literally couldn't keep her from slipping through fences and backing up the pipe gates, etc. Finally gave up and she has been happily living with the colt ever since. A breeding I'd considered doing down the road anyway so we'll see what happens. Of course, thise size diff is no way near that of a mini to a draft!


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## ShyAnne

SFM in KY said:


> With the majority of crossbred foals I've bred, most of the offspring of small x large breedings, a general rule of thumb seems to be that the foals will mature roughly halfway between the height of the two, with a couple of inches either way.
> 
> I have found that if the mare is the bigger one, those foals will tend to be on the high end of the halfway height ... if the mare is the smaller one, those foals will usually end up in the lower end of the halfway height."
> 
> 
> 
> I have found this to be true also. I do agree bone structure plays a major role in foaling. The thing is, minis seem to need assistance more often than pony or biggie mares in general. And the room you have to work with is very small in case there is assistance needed.
> When we speak of bone structure playing a role in foaling, vs hight, think of the draft horse, cant really get much bigger boned....So crossing a draft, big bone structure, to a miniature mare, refined or not, IMO the risk of complication from foaling would far out way the worth to just breed mini stallion to draft vs mini mare to draft, if in fact the cross is desired anyway.
> However, breeding a 12 hh pony mare to a 15 hh refined stallion is not as much of a risk. And if the cross is desired much more likely to produce favorable outcome...
> With it being said,Ive also noticed that pony stallions bred to mare horses, that the foals tend to follow more of a horse look than a pony also. Just an interesting observation Ive noticed in the mares x ponys we have crossed. I wonder if the horse stallion pony mare crosses are different? Where they tend to favor the pony look more?


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## ShyAnne

1sttimemom said:


> I remember reading about studies done a long time ago where they bred draft stallions to shetland mares. The results were healthy foals with no increase of birth issues. The foals just grew bigger after they were born.


I read a study on ER about this, and in fact, the foals did tend to have some issues, I will try to go back and find the article, as it stated different issues with crossing the drafts to shetland mares, yes the mare did foal with out issue. I want to say it was some form of leg deformities?


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## simka2

1sttimemom said:


> I remember reading about studies done a long time ago where they bred draft stallions to shetland mares. The results were healthy foals with no increase of birth issues. The foals just grew bigger after they were born.
> 
> I have a reg'd shetland mare. She is a normal average size and is a "classic". I was just looking at her today and either she is EXTREMELY fat/round or she is possibly bred to our young Morgan stallion. This little mare is qute eager when in heat and we literally couldn't keep her from slipping through fences and backing up the pipe gates, etc. Finally gave up and she has been happily living with the colt ever since. A breeding I'd considered doing down the road anyway so we'll see what happens. Of course, thise size diff is no way near that of a mini to a draft!


If it is the Shire/Shetland study of 1936 I linked a lengthy discussion of that up thread and it's inaccuracies. The study was based off of 3 European Shetland mares and is sorely lacking in scientific information.

I love hunter/sport ponies!!! I also think I mini-clyde lookalike would be adorable. Just not by breeding a Clyd to a mini.


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## SFM in KY

ShyAnne said:


> I wonder if the horse stallion pony mare crosses are different? Where they tend to favor the pony look more?


Actually, I have done quite a few of these and don't really see differences. When they are mature, you can't tell whether the mare a particular foal was out of was a 11 or 12 hand pony or a 15 or 16 hand mare.

But then too, I'm selecting the pony side of the cross for 'sportpony' look ... small horse types rather than the very obviously pony type. If you look at photos of a lot of my ponies, you can't really tell what size they are or if they are ponies or horses. Some, yes ... but some you really can't. As much as possible, both the ponies and the horses I'm using for these crosses are as much alike in type as I can get them.

The other thing I do also is I don't breed a maiden pony mare to a big stallion for her first foal ... and my pony mares are not the super refined, narrow ponies either.


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## bergere

Miniature horse can have a lot of issues during foaling time as it is. You should be on the LB forum during foaling time, could be a real eye opener.
To breed a mini mare to a full size stallion is just insane and the people doing it, do not care about their animals. In fact I would consider it abuse.

A mini stallion to a big mare is fine, though why you would do it??? 

Now I have seen one breeder of mini horses,, breeding "Mini Drafts" but there is no draft in them if they were honest. They just took mini horses (original Shetland Island Shetland genetics) and breed for the traits of a draft horse.
Can be done.

You should see the feather on Maggie right now and she is an older type... not as refine as what most Mini breeders seem to be going towards.


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## lasergrl

http://www.windermerefarmspercherons.com/clydeponies.html

This is why its appealing. I'm very aware of normal birthing problems as I do work for a vet, but not a horse vet. These horses are out of hackney ponies. . Some are using large minis. I just found it odd. My mini is the same size or bigger then a hackney but with less leg. She is very draft in type which is why I picked her. Not that would or am going to do it, I just wasn't sure it ws possible.


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## SFM in KY

lasergrl said:


> These horses are out of hackney ponies. . Some are using large minis. I just found it odd. My mini is the same size or bigger then a hackney but with less leg. She is very draft in type which is why I picked her. Not that would or am going to do it, I just wasn't sure it ws possible.


Those are really gorgeous draft ponies! I agree, very impressive.

The other thing that is getting more common/easier is embryo transfer. Something that used to be very iffy but is certainly getting more common and apparently much more reliable. 

A friend of mine in VA is working on an 'upgrade' program with warmbloods and since it requires three generations of approved horses from an 'unapproved' line, she is breeding very young mares in the program, but doing embryo transplants so it won't affect their growth. 

I could see that working well for a program like this if you were concerned about the possible foaling issues.


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## ShyAnne

Gorgeous draft ponies for sure!


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## Otter

They are lovely from the side, but Oh My Goodness their _hocks_!! The one mare's hocks nearly touch and her sire is barely better! I know it's not uncommon for drafts to be slightly cow hocked but wow.

An interesting thing in the thread simka2 posted was an unexpected result in the 2005 study done by Dr, Twink Allen. Doing embryo transfer of purebred pony foals into TB mares and purebred TB foals into pony mares, the mares were pretty much all fine. The pony-in-TB foals were big and strong but the TB-in-pony foals didn't have much muscle development and took a while to "unfold"
BUT
The TB-in-pony foals all grew up healthy and normal.
While the pony-in-TB foals, despite their much better foal appearance, ALL had to be put down by the time they were 4! Apparently their bodies never gave them the signal that they were "full" and to stop eating. 
It can't have been genetics because the Dr had piggy-backed this study with a study of twins, developed from embryo splitting. So the Control was about as control as you can get!
So apparently, it doesn't make to much difference to the mare, but if you're doing embryo transfer be sure it's to a same size or smaller mare!


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## SFM in KY

simka2 said:


> This should never be done!!! Like another poster, I have seen draft ponies bred down in size to get a Draft mini. They can even have Clydesdale coloring, but that is way different than breeding a Clyde to a mini. Yikes!
> 
> Here is a similar discussion with some vets weighing in. http://forum.horsetopia.com/breeding-genetics/130403-infamous-shire-shetland-breeding-study.html#b


I finally had a chance to skim through the thread simka2 posted more completely. The OP on this thread was referencing a study done back in 1936 and many of the research protocols are of course much different now.

If you skim through the entire thread, you will see a number of posts by Kathy St. Martin, of Equine Reproduction, one of the most knowledgeable people I know in that field. She posts information from much more recent reproductive studies which are certainly more current as well as being much better documented with modern protocols.

The link I've posted below 'should' take you to page 4 of that thread, if anyone is interested, where Kathy posts a report from one of the more recent (2004?) studies involving size issues (her posts will appear about halfway down the page).

http://forum.horsetopia.com/breeding-genetics/130403-infamous-shire-shetland-breeding-study-4.html

This is much more likely to be current, useful information I would think, but it also pretty much documents that the comparative size of the mare/stallion has little to do with being the cause of problems in foaling.


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## lasergrl

On a slightly related note, why are cattle cidrs and PG 600 not used on horses? It seems like just about the easiest method out there to get an animal is estrus. I found a research paper online discussing their use in equines,and how they work. Why are they not used more? Not as reliable as other methods?


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## jennigrey

Otter said:


> They are lovely from the side, but Oh My Goodness their _hocks_!! The one mare's hocks nearly touch and her sire is barely better! I know it's not uncommon for drafts to be slightly cow hocked but wow.


It is desireable for Clydesdales and Shires to have their hocks touching. However, the cannon bones should also be parallel to each other so that the lower hind legs look like one limb. They coup them with shoes, too, to exaggerate their conformation. So it's unsurprising that they would want a "miniature Clydesdale" to look the same.


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## SFM in KY

lasergrl said:


> On a slightly related note, why are cattle cidrs and PG 600 not used on horses? It seems like just about the easiest method out there to get an animal is estrus. I found a research paper online discussing their use in equines,and how they work. Why are they not used more? Not as reliable as other methods?


I'm not actually sure what "cidrs" are but PG 600 is a combination of PMSG and HCG and I don't know how either are used with cattle. HCG is used in horses, or was until they took it off the market. Not sure what they are using now, but it was used at the time of breeding when a mare had a follicle and the vet wanted to help insure ovulation. 

The current most-used method to cycle mares is very accurate ... I've used it for a number of years now. It is called P & E ... a combination of progesterone and estriadol, an injectable given to a mare 3 cc daily for 10 days, with the addition of a .02 cc dose of Lutalyse on day #9 and #10. You then breed the mare on day #18, which is the day of ovulation and HCG was used at that time. There are occasional mares that will ovulate a day early or late, but rarely. I've used it for breeding mares almost exclusively for the last 6 years, whether I'm breeding to an outside stallion with shipped semen or to my own stallions here. I've had no more 'misses' with that protocol than I have had teasing and breeding with a stallion ... and it has a better effective rate that the previous method involving a combination of Regumate (altrenogest) plus Lutalyse.


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## Otter

jennigrey said:


> It is desireable for Clydesdales and Shires to have their hocks touching. However, the cannon bones should also be parallel to each other so that the lower hind legs look like one limb. They coup them with shoes, too, to exaggerate their conformation. So it's unsurprising that they would want a "miniature Clydesdale" to look the same.


I did not know that.
When I worked for SeaWorld I got to see the clydes there all the time, none of them were _that_ cow hocked, though most of them were at least a little cowhocked. Learn something new every day!


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## springvalley

Otter said:


> Clyde drafts are more so cow hocked, I have raised Belgians for thirty years and mine are never cow hocked. Some people like them that way, but it is very hard on a real Workhorse to be cow hocked. > Thanks Marc


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## jennigrey

I would like to clarify that when I say it is "desireable", I mean that it wins ribbons in the show ring. Beyond that, I'd prefer not to comment.


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## mountainwmn

Oh. thats not really what I thought of when I saw miniature. I was thinking 32" tall clydes. How about a fell pony instead? Miniature friesians.


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## SFM in KY

mountainwmn said:


> Oh. thats not really what I thought of when I saw miniature. I was thinking 32" tall clydes. How about a fell pony instead? Miniature friesians.


I would think, with the Clyde ponies already available, sized down, if you went with a cross with Fell Ponies and Hackney Ponies (keeping the flashy movement) that if you then used both crosses for a couple of generations, selecting for the size/movement you wanted you would end up with an established show/draft type pony.


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