# Dehorning



## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Is dehorning generally a bad thing to do on older cattle? Our new milk cow has horns and she knows it. She's not aggressive but defensive with them around her head. She also bopped the horse in the nose with them ha. We could also tip them but would rather her not have any at all. The vet offers "cosmetic dehorning" ($75), tipping ($4)and sawing ($25). Does anyone know what is involved in the "cosmetic" dehorning? I'm hoping for something that doesn't hurt. :teehee:


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

I used a bander and they came off in 1 month blood less...not the cheap little bander but the big tube bander and gave a shot for tetines...worked on all the ones I did easy....if you want to do it I can give step by step steps......somebody around you might have one you can borrow...not sure about the cosmetic dehorning..what it would be ...but banding looks good to me on my milk cows


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

One of these? http://www.jefferslivestock.com/california-bander/camid/LIV/cp/0034971/

I've banded horns on goats a couple times and it went well. Is it hard to get it under the horn base? I'm trying picture how that thing works. I see they have a little metal piece, do you just get that tube started through it and use the thing to pull it tight or something? How much does it upset the cows? Will it hurt their production?


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

sorry never used that one it might work

here is the one I used I borrowed it

http://www.jefferslivestock.com/the-callicrate-smart-bander-/camid/LIV/cp/0028429/


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

Is it hard to get it under the horn base ?

not for me thats why I said steps.....When first used i put over horns and tighten it up...that just seem to roll down the horn..the band was to big to go into the flesh...........then I put on horns and pulled on the bander hard that made the band smaller and it went into the flesh at the base of horn then I tighten it up and it worked great


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## rancher1913 (Dec 5, 2008)

we've used the calcrate bander on older cows with horns with very good luck. sawzall will work too but its a bit messy and there is a higher risk of problems. the bander does make the cows a bit testie for several days but no blood loss.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I tried banding a horn on a couple goats, and it never worked quite right.

If you want those horns off, go with banding, otherwise, its kind of like cutting off a limb, just a few less nerves, and WOW the blood..

we don't dehorn the cows. yes, they know they have them, but like your horse will, they learn to move away from the dominant ones.


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

Folks, I'm about to be REAL unpopular here but I would only dehorn a family cow if she was really using them without cause. A new-to-the-place cow who is just tapping with 'em to get her own space established, no; if I had to do it I'd wait till dry period.


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## myersfarm (Dec 24, 2004)

arcticow...NOT UNPOPLAR with me....but seeing what my cows did with just the bands and a shot for tetanus........they did no even know after just a hour or two anything was going on.



but your are right about her being in a strange place she might settle down in a day or two


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

It's like the arguments for and against bull beef; to each his own. Glad to hear bands work that well.


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## francismilker (Jan 12, 2006)

If I did have an older cow that was slinging her head I'd vote on cosmetic dehorning. I've seen it done on show cattle and it's pricey. However, they are under conscience sedation when the procedure is being done and it's very effective. Sometimes price doesn't factor in when it's a family cow. Just do what you need to do and can afford.


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## Oakshire_Farm (Dec 4, 2008)

I had my jersey done when she was 5ish. The vet did it. We put her right out whith Rompin. While she was down in the barn, the vet then gave her some ladicane as a nerve block in the temple. The vet then sawed off the horns. There was little to no blood! a few drops on one side and none on the other. He then used the iron and sealed up the hole. Then her gave her a reversal, and she was up and wondering what just happened.

I loved her horns! But when she was in heat she liked to jab me in the back with them, so off they came! I do not regret it one bit.


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## Ronney (Nov 26, 2004)

Well, I read this thread earlier. I looked at my cows tonight. Of the 6 I am milking, 4 have their horns. Of the remaining two, one was bought in and had been dehorned before I got her, the other had hers removed because she lost them in transit and they grew back in towards her face. Of the remaining 3 cows that are presently dry, all have their horns. One is a Simmental/Jersey cross and has a magnificent spread of horns which I have no intention of removing.

As you may have gathered, I don't dehorn unless there is a problem with them that is going to affect their well-being such as curving back down and into the face or eyes. I have no problems with the horned cows picking on the dehorned cows and in fact a couple of the horned cows are at the bottom of the pecking order. Cows know they have horns and behave accordingly. I know they have horns and keep that distance between us. I am comfortable with horns - but then I am comfortable with my cows!

Cheers,
Ronnie


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

Well I am with Arcticow on this one. Let her get used to the place and she how she is then. Because no one has mention that jersey will sometimes bleed like stuck pigs even as young cattle getting dehorned. One of the vets thinks it due to a jerseys more high strung nature. We have switch to burning the horns off as calves to save teh problems. Also with old cattle the horn base is more pores and harded to get to veins to pull them to stop the bleeding. The hole in the skull would be huge on a horn that size and take along time to heal.
Bob


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Madsaw said:


> Well I am with Arcticow on this one. Let her get used to the place and she how she is then. Because no one has mention that jersey will sometimes bleed like stuck pigs even as young cattle getting dehorned. One of the vets thinks it due to a jerseys more high strung nature. We have switch to burning the horns off as calves to save teh problems. Also with old cattle the horn base is more pores and harded to get to veins to pull them to stop the bleeding. The hole in the skull would be huge on a horn that size and take along time to heal.
> Bob


While I agree with you on some of this Bob, I don`t agree with all of it. I personaly don`t thick jersey`s are that high strung, at least mine aren`t. And if the cattle are dehorned on the right sign of the moon they won`t bleed near as much. I have had no more problem dehorning jersey`s as I have holsteins. I personaly would not dehorn an older cow, I have heard all kinds of bad stories about dehorning cows, they never bounce back after that and they never trust you again. My ywo cents, maybe a nickle, . >Thanks marc


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## genebo (Sep 12, 2004)

Have you ever looked closely at a cow's horns? They grow from the base, so the ends are the same ends they had when they were calves. You can see rings around their horns that tell the story of their years. A bad year makes a narrowing of the horn. Good years make smooth, slick horns.

A cow came here to be bred that had her horns so narrow just a short distance from her head. Questioning revealed that she'd been very sick two years earlier.

My bull sparred with the tractor tire and got a crack that ran the length of his horn. It healed up, but made a black streak the length of his white horn. History revealed!

Your cows' horns tell you a lot about how well your program is working, but only after it's all over. Go look at the horns of a cow you've had for a while and see if you can spot the bad years. If they're all smooth and shiny, pat yourself on the back. You did a good job.

Genebo
Paradise Farm


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

"Never" is a strong word and one I would disagree with in this case. I have seen mature Jerseys dehorned at two farms by two different people (one a vet and the other a vet's assistance who has outworked multiple vets in our area). The vet assistance did our cows. Three of them. Mistie, Sandy and Snowdrift. Snowdrift was the reason they came off. She pulled out of her stanchion turned to her right and tore into Simone's side. Simone (one of our highest producing cows) refused to come in the barn and was terrified to go in her stanchion. We took the horns off of Mistie and Sandy at that point since we were doing the one, may as well do all three. Sandy had used her horns to hurt me multiple times. For whatever reason she simply did not like me. Mistie was never a problem. Dad would lean in on her broad forehead between her beautiful horns and scratch her neck.
Joe used a ratcheting guillotine type dehorner and pulled the bleeders. They had gauze on their heads. Didn't take that long to recover. We did keep them in their stanchions in the barn for the first three days to keep them quiet and reduce any chance of them hurting their heads by being stupid. Mistie still allowed dad to lean on her and give her scratches after she healed. Sandy's attitude improved considerably and was a friendlier cow after that. Snowdrift was the same old biddy she had been but couldn't tear other cows up anymore. Last I knew, Mistie was still going at 11 years old. We lost Sandy at around 9 years old a couple of years ago. We lost Snowdrift a couple of years ago as well at 8. Same year we lost Sandy. They were dehorned at 3 and 4 years old. The other option was to ship them. Seems silly when all it took was a bad day.
Mistie before dehorning








Mistie a few years after the dehorning









On the other hand, the school had a different vet dehorn their cows. Same idiot that used the base of the X50 on three day old Jersey heifer calves.
They had four or five dehorned at one time. Too many torn up vulvas and too many issues in the herd. I have to admit I pushed for it. After ours did so smoothly I figured most were like that. I was wrong. I wasn't there for the dehorning, only the aftermath. A couple of those cows ended up with infections and they did not recover as quickly. So a lot depends on the person doing the job. I had sold one of the horned cows before that herd was dehorned. She came here to be bred to our bull before being picked up by her new owner from Kansas. The other girls had had their horns off for a couple of years at that point, so we had heifers and young cows without ripped up vulvas and knicks on their flanks from horns. Not after Sara came. She used her horns against the herd and tore up our younger animals. Out on pasture.
Every mixed herd of dairy cattle I have seen has the torn up vulvas and the gashed flanks from the horned cows using them to their advantage. These are herds on pasture.
Except one, the herd Sara went to. The cows get to keep their horns and the bulls/steers are disbudded. Though the owner isn't as keen on them at this point. Not after Sara took her horns and tore into a goat that trapped in the fence. That goat died. Sara has since passed away at a ripe old age. The owners system has worked fine around the horns.
A lot depends on your system. Not all cows with horns are aggressive and not all use them. You have a different situation with a solo cow. Makes it easier to work around the horns. Give her some time to adjust before making a decision. 
As far as timing on dehorning. We were told not in the 3rd trimester of gestation due to the chance of aborting.


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

Read my first post, I said "without cause." Using them to purposefully hurt for no good reason IS without cause. I lierally grew up under dairy cattle, with no small exposure to stockers. I don't speak from limited experience. As I said, "to each his own."


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

genebo said:


> Have you ever looked closely at a cow's horns? They grow from the base, so the ends are the same ends they had when they were calves. You can see rings around their horns that tell the story of their years. A bad year makes a narrowing of the horn. Good years make smooth, slick horns.
> 
> A cow came here to be bred that had her horns so narrow just a short distance from her head. Questioning revealed that she'd been very sick two years earlier.
> 
> ...


Horns on old cattle are like wrinkles on old stockmen. They can tell you all sorts of things 'bout a long, intresting life.


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

arcticow said:


> Read my first post, I said "without cause." Using them to purposefully hurt for no good reason IS without cause. I lierally grew up under dairy cattle, with no small exposure to stockers. I don't speak from limited experience. As I said, "to each his own."


 I hope this wasn't a response to my post? I have no problem with people leaving horns on cows. I was disagreeing with the post where he had heard that dehorned cows "never" bounce back and never trust again. It really just depends on the situation. In our situation, it was for the betterment of the dairy herd. Not a large herd either. We milked 30 at peak and that was only until some of the first calf heifers were sold off. It was normally 10-20 cows year round.
I was merely imparting my personal experience with dehorning mature cattle.
We usually disbud calves. At the worst they are scooped (yuck!).
Then again, no horns on the goats either. Simply does not work with our style of management.

Dad tells of how and why they originally went to no horns. They were at the county fair and one of the low men on the pole got loose one night and went up and down the row of the cows and tore every single one of her herdmates up. Didn't touch anyone else's cows, just her herdmates. When the show cows came home, they had the vet out the next day and the entire herd was dehorned. So the herd used to be all horned.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

I am so sorry I used that very strong word "Never" I promise to Never use it again, Never ever. > Marc


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

springvalley said:


> I am so sorry I used that very strong word "Never" I promise to Never use it again, Never ever. > Marc


:rotfl:
Thanks!
I just didn't want people to think that it always ends up poorly.


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## springvalley (Jun 23, 2009)

Well as you have had good luck dehorning cows I have had friends that didn`t. Sorry for the never, but I hate to dehorn mature animals, it is hard on them. > Thanks Bunches and heaps, Marc


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## dosthouhavemilk (Oct 29, 2004)

springvalley said:


> Well as you have had good luck dehorning cows I have had friends that didn`t. Sorry for the never, but I hate to dehorn mature animals, it is hard on them. > Thanks Bunches and heaps, Marc


 I agree it is hard on them. There are circumstances that some feel warrant it though. It certainly is not something we considered lightly. We had not planned on dehorning them until Snowdrift did what she did.
The sad thing is our cows ended up going to a farm with mixed horned and not, so they are getting tore up yet again.
It is even harder on goats. It's why Twyla was allowed to keep her horns....so far. 
We did remove Midge's and I would do it again if needed. She is alive because of it.
Ashley's background is a dairy goat view. No horns.
If one doesn't know how to work around horns it can make it all the more dangerous and difficult.
Mdige is a bit head shy of us right. That did not go well at all with her. She is extremely head shy still. Hopefully over time it will get better. It has been a year since we banded her horns. The cows forgave much more quickly. At least our cows. The school's cows did not. It really makes a difference if the person knows what they are doing or not.


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## arcticow (Oct 8, 2006)

Sorry for the confusion on my part. As far as dairy goats, I agree completely, NO horns. Milk'em a year if they have 'em, then start a MEAT goat herd with 'em. Or at least do the meat part.


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

I do disbud my goats, but we do not dehorn our cows. the horns are part of our trademark, and the thing that sets us apart from the other beef herds around here. 
we dont have an issue with them hurting us, although there are flank scratches amongst the herd, especially on the boys. occasionally someone gets stuck in the feeder, but for the most part little problem. If we end up with an aggressive animal, we ship him, or her, because horns or no, aggression is aggression.


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## Madsaw (Feb 26, 2008)

springvalley said:


> While I agree with you on some of this Bob, I don`t agree with all of it. I personaly don`t thick jersey`s are that high strung, at least mine aren`t. And if the cattle are dehorned on the right sign of the moon they won`t bleed near as much. I have had no more problem dehorning jersey`s as I have holsteins. I personaly would not dehorn an older cow, I have heard all kinds of bad stories about dehorning cows, they never bounce back after that and they never trust you again. My ywo cents, maybe a nickle, . >Thanks marc


Marc,
LOL, my mistake there. Really not meaning high strung attitude. But, For lack of better wording their metabolism makes them bleed easier. But yet on teh same token they will be a higher bracket for milk fever. Its hard to explain what I was told by that old vet. I tend to stay away from cutting horns anymore. Try to burn them all young.
The worst thing to ever try no matter what breed of cow is to cut a scrub horn off. They are a nightmare and be prepared for bleeding.
Bob


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

I can't say she's aggressive with them, nor am I expecting to immediately lop her horns off. But long term, I don't like them. I have dairy goats and they are all disbudded. I just don't like having sharp points around me. I may just get them tipped thought, I think that would be enough to make me feel better.


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## southerngurl (May 11, 2003)

Is there something I can tip them with myself?


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## lonelyfarmgirl (Feb 6, 2005)

marshmallows?, tennis balls? , yeah, tennis balls and a big gooey wad of gorilla glue


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## oregon woodsmok (Dec 19, 2010)

I'd give her a couple of weeks to settle in. She's a gentle cow, so as she gets settled, she may stop using them.

It could go either way. As she gets more confident she might use them less, or she might get more confident and decide she is going to be the boss and use them more.

I like the look of those round brass horn caps they use in Switzerland. She could still smack you, but not gore you (at least not so easily) and she'd look all artistic.


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