# Controlling the Neighbors?



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

How much right do you feel like you should have over your neighbors?


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

No “rights” at all. The neighbors should have common sense and respect. 

I know. 

That’s asking a lot.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

LOL do you mean common sense is Uncommon?

What about when it isn't? What do you see as the neighbors taking unreasonable advantage?


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Talking about the power company pole light and seeing how many hate to see the night sky defiled got me to thinking about this topic.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Your suggestions for poll questions would be appreciated!


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

My closest neighbors all live on the farm. Sis and her family, Brother and his family and Mom and step dad. I don't control them at all. The trailer park that's a different ball game ! They lose a lot of dogs but I'm only 100k difference in his asking price and mine...


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

It dosent have to be your NEAREST neighbors. A friend of mine is upset because a power company from Iowa wants to run a powerline across his farm to Indiana users.

I don't want that powerline across his place and he is a mile from me.


----------



## dmm1976 (Oct 29, 2013)

AmericanStand said:


> Talking about the power company pole light and seeing how many hate to see the night sky defiled got me to thinking about this topic.


 Also, Attracts all those bugs. In the country especially I feel like my home is just a beacon of death. I started making sure our porch lights were off at night when I'd wake up to dead bugs all over the deck in the mornings.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Basically we should look, carefully at the ole, "Your rights end at the tip of my nose" saying. As long as their shenanigans stay on their side of the fence, it should be of no concern to you. For example. You should have absolutely no say as to what color they paint their house or what plants they plant in their yard. If they are dumping chemicals in the creek that crosses their border, then yes, you do have a say.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Farmerga said:


> Basically we should look, carefully at the ole, "Your rights end at the tip of my nose" saying. As long as their shenanigans stay on their side of the fence, it should be of no concern to you. For example. You should have absolutely no say as to what color they paint their house or what plants they plant in their yard. If they are dumping chemicals in the creek that crosses their border, then yes, you do have a say.


Really? Why should I have to put up with a ugly house? That light doesn't stay on their side of the fence any more than toxins poured into a stream would? Why is the light off their house any different than a ugly scrap yard or factory?
What about those plants? what if I'm allergic to them? what if they spread to my yard? why should I have to fight some weird invasive plant they imported?

LOL I don't mean it personally I'm just wondering out loud why we think the way we think.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

dmm1976 said:


> Also, Attracts all those bugs. In the country especially I feel like my home is just a beacon of death. I started making sure our porch lights were off at night when I'd wake up to dead bugs all over the deck in the mornings.


LOL I can see the Sign at the road "DMN's Beacon of Death farm"...
.
.
. Actually sounds more like a church.


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Really? Why should I have to put up with a ugly house? That light doesn't stay on their side of the fence any more than toxins poured into a stream would? Why is the light off their house any different than a ugly scrap yard or factory?
> What about those plants? what if I'm allergic to them? what if they spread to my yard? why should I have to fight some weird invasive plant they imported?
> 
> LOL I don't mean it personally I'm just wondering out loud why we think the way we think.


Ugly is in the mind of the beholder. They may find your choices of décor, ugly. Do they have the right to force you to change? Like I stated, light is among the items that cross fences. If those plants spread to your yard, it becomes your concern.


----------



## nehimama (Jun 18, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Why should I have to put up with a ugly house?


Don't look at it? Be glad you don't live in it?


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

nehimama said:


> Don't look at it? Be glad you don't live in it?


Better to live in it so you don't have to see it!


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Farmerga said:


> Ugly is in the mind of the beholder. They may find your choices of décor, ugly. Do they have the right to force you to change? Like I stated, light is among the items that cross fences. If those plants spread to your yard, it becomes your concern.


 Yes just like water.
You wouldn't accept polluted water why do we accept polluted light?
Would you feel the same about a junkyard?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

I have witnessed urban/suburban flight cause a lot of issues between established rural homeowners and the "new kids on the block."
A generation ago it wasn't uncommon to pass 1 mile or more between homes along typical country roads. Now, people are considered to be "living in the sticks" when a 1/4 mile lies between them and the neighbor. I see old timers who are set in their ways and habits and totally oblivious to anyone around them; I see homeowners who left the congestion, the urban grind, the HOAs, only to complain about the lack of codes and ordinances.
If you feel you need some sort of guidelines for behaviour or property management, look for places that have it. 
Don't move to Rome and complain about the accent.
I did some carpentry work on a bank owned home last year. I drove for miles, switched from one badly maintained county road to another, some only gravel, before crossing an old wooden bridge onto nearly new asphault that entered a community of about 2 dozen 350K+ homes. Each property was 3 acres, manicured and sodded. Each home was required to have X amount of landscaping, irrigation, and yes, night time lighting. I pulled into the drive and was immediately met by an older woman on a golf cart with her two purse dogs, who began to complain rudely how the yard was not being kept up, trash cans were left exposed to view in front of the garage, leaves collecting in the shrubs, etc. She was furious that a man had came by last week and mowed the property with no bagging system to collect the clippings and just allowed them to "fly everywhere." I explained why I was there, which made no difference to her. A man stopped at this point on his bicycle and asked me for the name of the mortgagor, number and contact person. My smiling and good demeanor stopped at that point and the discussion came to a short and curt end.
17 miles to the nearest town with a gas station, surrounded by cattle and hog operations on roads used as much by farm equipment as cars and yet, here was someone's idea of utopia. An island of nazi controlled pleasantville surrounded by a county of cow poop.


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

The only way to really control the neighborhood is to buy them out ....


----------



## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

AmericanStand said:


> Yes just like water.
> You wouldn't accept polluted water why do we accept polluted light?
> Would you feel the same about a junkyard?


As long as the items and anything leaking from them can be contained to their property, I shouldn't have a say.


----------



## mzgarden (Mar 16, 2012)

interesting the use of the word control rather than negotiate, request, etc.
I do not want a meth lab to set up next to me. I do not want adult/child/animal abuse to be enabled. I do not want chemicals, old gasoline, oil drained from cars, etc. to seep across the property lines.
As to lights, noise, etc - I prefer to negotiate rather than control. For example, let's say a neighbor has teenage boys in a band and a backyard pool. Let's say Summer nights were loud. Prefer to negotiate a time when the sound would be turned down. If that doesn't work - bush hog at 6am would be another negotiating tool. or, negotiating with a neighbor about where to put their night light to reduce the impact to me while supporting their right to perceived safety. IMO, 'control' is a boomerang word; it teaches people how I want to treat them and therefore how they should be able to treat me.


----------



## hiddensprings (Aug 6, 2009)

You really don’t have any “rights” over the neighbors. No, there are laws, covenants, zoning, etc that can dictate if the neighbors are breaking those things. But if you consider the property unsightly or they don’t keep it up the way you think they should BUT they are within the community’s rules, you can’t make a change. An easier solution is simply to move to the middle of nowhere where you have no neighbors. That’s what we did.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

I guess I should have titled this thread “Reasonable Tresspass”
I’m looking for what kind of tress pass and inroads you feel you and the neighbors have a right to. 
Seems like light tresspass is pretty well accepted.


----------



## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

I have a fence and trees all along the back of my property. I can't see much of anything of what the neighbors are doing. I wish they were more careful of their refuse so it doesn't attract vermin though but I would never complain just put out more traps.

as for my yard, it stands up to and surpasses anything on this street. no reason to complain about me.actually several ladies told me they wish I wouldn't do so much work because it shows them up and their husbands might expect it from them.

it is true. people from the city buy and build out in the country and then start complaining. happen to us when I lived in the country full time. this guy bought across the street. never spoke to a person just started complaining about our roosters. chickens, pigs etc.etc.all of us had them. we were in agricultural area. he must have known that. if not he sure found out when he called municipal. needless to say it was up for sale in less than a year. ~Georgia


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Light trespass? No.
Live and let live and cause no harm to others? Yes.

Had a young couple move next to us years ago. He had no idea of his property lines because the seller and his broker never had a survey nor did they walk the ground with him. He put up a deer stand along what he thought was his western edge. He then cut a small shooting lane, dropping some very nice hickory and oak tree. Walking thru my trails sometime later I noticed what he did.
The next time I saw him I made it clear, generously dousing all of my words with honey and sugar, yet making it very clear to never let that happen again. I gave him a copy of my survey and we always remained good friends and helped each other whenever needed.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

I am on the fence on this. 

I had a neighbor that let his property grow up and was a big fire hazard. I offered to clean it up for free. He declined and told me to mind my own business. Then a small pasture fire from his neighbor caught his place on fire. I had 6 for depts trying to save his house. In the meantime dinner if my stuff got burned up. My stuff wasn't a residence so I had to let it go. 

Who should have been responsible for my stuff since I had offered to clean his up for free?


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Trespass? Absolutely not. Unless you see a person or animal in eminent danger.

What in the world makes you think that "light trespass" is a thing?

Do that in Texas, and you'd better have your funeral prepaid, unless you have a congenial relationship with permission for walking on your neighbor's place.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> What in the world makes you think that "light trespass" is a thing?


Lol it’s bound to be a thing I just may not be calling it by the right name.
What would you call it when the neighbors lights light up your bedroom ?


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mreynolds said:


> I am on the fence on this.
> 
> I had a neighbor that let his property grow up and was a big fire hazard. I offered to clean it up for free. He declined and told me to mind my own business. Then a small pasture fire from his neighbor caught his place on fire. I had 6 for depts trying to save his house. In the meantime dinner if my stuff got burned up. My stuff wasn't a residence so I had to let it go.
> 
> Who should have been responsible for my stuff since I had offered to clean his up for free?


 Seems obvious to me it’s the response ability of the person who started it.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

AmericanStand said:


> Seems obvious to me it’s the response ability of the person who started it.


Legally yes but there wouldn't have been a big fire of he had cleared out his underbrush. I'm not talking about just mowing I mean like tree limbs that lay across his house from back in 2004 with hurricane Katrina.

I had some gulf coast refugees at my house then and three chain saws. We went over there to cut the tree off his door to see if he was alright. He called the cops on us and said we were stealing his wood. We got the tree off the door but the rest stayed until last year when his uncle came and cleaned it up.

The guy that started the fire did fix my stuff with my help.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...was-upset-over-yard-debris-documents-say.html

If you read the link, you'll see Rand Paul's neighbor was upset that the Ky Senator was piling branches and clippings near
the property line. Not on it or over it, near it. Yet the neighbor was upset because it was in his direct line of sight from his deck; enough that he attacked him. Apparently the neighbor saw no other recourse since there didn't seem to be any ordinances about yard waste near the edge of one's property.


----------



## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

GTX63 said:


> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...was-upset-over-yard-debris-documents-say.html
> 
> If you read the link, you'll see Rand Paul's neighbor was upset that the Ky Senator was piling branches and clippings near
> the property line. Not on it or over it, near it. Yet the neighbor was upset because it was in his direct line of sight from his deck; enough that he attacked him. Apparently the neighbor saw no other recourse since there didn't seem to be any ordinances about yard waste near the edge of one's property.


He should go to jail just for starting a brush pile with gas.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> I don't want that powerline across his place and he is a mile from me.


So what you're saying is you want to control your "neighbors" but don't want them to have any control over you?


----------



## roadless (Sep 9, 2006)

I recently had a new family buy a home close to me. 
I actually enjoy hearing the sound of their children playing outside.
What I find annoying is the very loud music( and I'm using that term loosely ) that the parents blare on the weekends when they have parties.
So far it has been every weekend for a month now.
They seem oblivious to how it affects others.
I'm not sure quite what to do.


----------



## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

I often wondered what happened to the Rand Paul case. after reading that link it looks like he was goading the man into doing something. if they lived in mcmasions like they probably did everyone likely kept their yards looking good. who wants a pile of brush close to the line for any length of time.

I had a bunch back of the house but I cleaned it up as quick as I could and I have a tall fence where no one can see. jmo but from that it looks like he was doing it on purpose. sounds pretty miserable and all the neighbors seemed to like the other guy but what do I know. ~Georgia


----------



## ticndig (Sep 7, 2014)

AmericanStand said:


> What would you call it when the neighbors lights light up your bedroom


 I'd call it time to draw the curtains and blinds . I'm going through that and more . I'm retired ,and every morning I awake at 430 am to the sound of the guy next doors truck as he heads off to work . I sure can't expect him to do anything about that . the answer to it is for me to move to a larger acreage in a remote area and hope for the best .


----------



## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> Lol it’s bound to be a thing I just may not be calling it by the right name.
> What would you call it when the neighbors lights light up your bedroom ?


you're going to have to get room darkening curtains AS. that's what I did because of the harsh street lights a few years ago. now we have lovely soft ones. I do like some light at night and now I open the curtains. ~Georgia


----------



## newfieannie (Dec 24, 2006)

there are several guys here that head off to work early in the morning. my bedroom is not very far from the street and I can hear everything. it doesn't bother me though. I don't get in bed until 3 or so . so I'm probably still awake most times when they go. ~Georgia


----------



## crehberg (Mar 16, 2008)

I'm pretty sure I'm the "bad" neighbor. We were "here first", but I make noise at all times and all days from various power equipment...have old rusty stuff everywhere (it's "yard art" thank you very much)...don't keep my yard manicured (who had time to burn cutting grass every three days)...

I think the neighborhood is starting to catch on, though. All the new neighbors seem to enjoy not being "forced" into "Prussian neatness". 

Except for one who confronted me about some equipment I had parked on my fenceline. Mind you, he lives a half mile down the road and can't even see it from his house. Told him I'd be happy to fix that for him.

I parked some more over there with it.

He flipped me the bird last time he road by.

Ah... ruining another generation.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

At last just a guy I was looking for I know you have the right but I want to ask you why do you think you should have the right to spoil everybody else’s view?


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Who is to say the view is spoiled? How would you know what everyone else thinks, if they even care, about a home owner's property along their fence?
You know what happens when you try to please everyone else?


----------



## nchobbyfarm (Apr 10, 2011)

As long as nothing your neighbor does causes pollution, physical or health harm across your property line, you have not control.


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

AmericanStand said:


> What would you call it when the neighbors lights light up your bedroom ?


"You needing shades"


----------



## montysky (Aug 21, 2006)

out West water is King, so my issues would be the creek and ground Water, mess with either one we would have a big problem.


----------



## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

AmericanStand said:


> How much right do you feel like you should have over your neighbors?


................................
..........When I lived on my 5 acres my west neighbor was given a bull calf ! It grew into a 1600 lb. pain in the Azz . His idiot wife thought it was a Dog , until it ran over him and jumped their Bwire fence . It started rubbing it's head in the dirt like bulls do down by my main gate about a foot away form my very expensive , self built perimeter fence !
...........I told him one day IF his Bull tore up my fence I'd shot that animal dead in a heart beat ! MY advice was to sell it to a friend of mine who would load it and take it too the auction . IF I shot his bull it was worth zip.........he sold it to my friend and no more problems ! His main problem was he was PW'ed and he couldn't tell his crazy wife what needed to be done . Lots of grown men seem to be conflicted with this condition . , fordy


----------



## Shrek (May 1, 2002)

I don't care what the neighbors do on their side of the outer fence of my property as I own the three high ground terraces on this side of the hill and the spring head and the woods it comes out of over part of the foothill top are on my family's property and there is enough buffer acreage between the neighbors and I that I don't bother them and they don't bother me. Maybe having a shooting range behind my house and using it occasionally for target practice and being friends with most of the S.O. patrols in our area helps keep them away and not bothering me much


----------



## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

AmericanStand said:


> I guess I should have titled this thread “Reasonable Tresspass”
> I’m looking for what kind of tress pass and inroads you feel you and the neighbors have a right to.
> Seems like light tresspass is pretty well accepted.





AmericanStand said:


> Lol it’s bound to be a thing I just may not be calling it by the right name.
> What would you call it when the neighbors lights light up your bedroom ?


LOL
The use of vocabulary today, or the lack of it, is sometimes amusing.

Yes, that word was a proper usage for your question............although I wonder how many people would still dispute it even with this documentation.



> Our Father, which art in heaven,
> Hallowed be thy Name.
> Thy Kingdom come.
> Thy will be done in earth,
> ...


That's all I can reply to your thread however.
Some of my suggestions, fall in line with others on here, but my words have been twisted to the point that if *I* make those suggestions, a "permanent trespass warrant" will be issued.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

In order for me to use my property as I see fit, my neighbors must be allowed the same freedom.


----------



## larryp (Jun 10, 2018)

If you don't like the view of your neighbor then plant a row of trees.
Personally I figure it won't be long before some of the newcomers to my area start complaining about the noise from my little farm. I've lived here 25 years, long before 1/2 the houses on this road were even built. I have roosters, hogs and a shooting range. I did have a gal 1/2 mile down the road ask once if I was the one with a rooster. Told her yes and nothing else was said. Had a family reunion last summer where the kids and grandkids came out for 4 days and there was a lot of shooting. One neighbor did call and ask if everything was ok when we were doing some mag dumps from the AK's and we told her what was going on. Nothing more was said. Helps that most of the neighbors think of me as that crazy old vet who wears camo ( my old field jacket) and has a bunch of guns. They tend to leave me alone for the most part.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

larryp said:


> If you don't like the view of your neighbor then plant a row of trees.
> Personally I figure it won't be long before some of the newcomers to my area start complaining about the noise from my little farm. I've lived here 25 years, long before 1/2 the houses on this road were even built. ..................
> 
> 
> .......................... Helps that most of the neighbors think of me as that crazy old vet who wears camo ( my old field jacket) and has a bunch of guns. They tend to leave me alone for the most part.


LOL Yeah I have to agree with that last line!
But why should you have to ruin your view because of what the neighbors do?
After all you have been there 25 years .
If you had used the neighbors pasture 25 years you would own it.
If you had used water from your stream 25 years you would own it
Why don't you own your view after 25years?


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> In order for me to use my property as I see fit, my neighbors must be allowed the same freedom.


Could you elaborate?


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Just some of the reasons why I don't have neighbors.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Aww Cornhusker its great to be the luck man that can own all he can see !

Sorry but we all have neighbors since no one owns it all yet.


----------



## Cornhusker (Mar 20, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> So what you're saying is you want to control your "neighbors" but don't want them to have any control over you?


In a perfect world..........


----------



## Grey Mare (Jun 28, 2013)

We own 40 acres and have several neighbors who don't seem to understand boundary lines or no trespass signs. One neighbor a half mile away was letting his hound dogs out at night, we caught them several times harassing our horses, chasing them around and being a general nuisance. I asked the owner to please keep them on his property, contain them in their kennel and the reason why. He became very belligerent so animal control came out and spoke to him and let him know, in VA this is a livestock state, if I felt his dogs were going to harm my horses or became vicious, I could, on my own property, legally shoot them and he would have no recourse, which I told him I or my husband would as our horses are elderly and could hurt themselves. 

He then stated his dogs were being trained for "**** hunting" and that gave him the right to allow them to be out at night, that they could not read no trespass signs or know boundaries, and if they got away from him it wasn't his fault. Fish and Game backed that up, as this is a HUGE issue with people using this an excuse to just let their dogs roam, and even they have tried to get the laws changed using hunting dogs to flush deer and others doing the above, but it has always been voted down. 

Because this neighbor knew I was serious when I said my horses come first, so does their health and well being, I have not since seen the dogs on our property. That is my own pet peeve, is unlicensed, loose animals roaming around causing havoc. You have animals in the country, then be responsible and keep them on YOUR property.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

LOL I have to admit that excuse always got me laughing ." I cant control where they go" says the 1 acre guy.
and I think "well gee then maybe you shouldn't let them loose"


----------



## crehberg (Mar 16, 2008)

AmericanStand said:


> At last just a guy I was looking for I know you have the right but I want to ask you why do you think you should have the right to spoil everybody else’s view?


Spoil their view of what? It's a working farm with equipment parked on a fencerow. Been that way long as I can remember. It ain't blocking nobody's view of anything...some folks just dont like seeing farm equipment apparently. I guess I'm a little confused cause I'm not understanding why farm equipment on a farm would be a problem even if it did block a view (which would be of my property, by the way)...


----------



## gerold (Jul 18, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> At last just a guy I was looking for I know you have the right but I want to ask you why do you think you should have the right to spoil everybody else’s view?


while living in L.B. Ca. a few years back, two ladies came to my door with clippers and ask if they could trim up my rose bushes in my back yard. I said no I like them the way they were. The roses were in full bloom and spread over a 3 ft. area. No one could see them from the front street. People need to mind their own business sometimes.


----------



## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

If you want control over your neighbors, you should live in an HOA and get on their board.


roadless said:


> What I find annoying is the very loud music( and I'm using that term loosely ) that the parents blare on the weekends when they have parties.
> So far it has been every weekend for a month now.
> They seem oblivious to how it affects others.
> I'm not sure quite what to do.


One small town I lived in for a while, when the parents were away the kids would play their music really loud with the windows open (everyone left their windows open in the summer). I got fed up one time and turned my stereo up really loud blasting Mozarts Requiem for the Dead. I didn't have too many problems after that.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

larryp said:


> Helps that most of the neighbors think of me as that crazy old vet who wears camo ( my old field jacket) and has a bunch of guns. They tend to leave me alone for the most part.


Glad it worked out for you. There are always two truths to consider in such situations. 1.) Push comes to Shove. 2.) Every war is won by the side that is the most ruthless. Right now, it seems you are seen as the most ruthless/crazy. Right now, no one wants to up the auntie. I'm cool with a backstop and an occasional target practice, but out of common (uncommon?) decency, if me and the crew are going to run through a few thousand rounds, I'd take it to a range. "Mag dumps from the AKs" makes you a bad neighbor. Property rights and township ordinances are not based on seniority. "New Comer" doesn't have to put up with any violations and is likely to get some ordinances enacted to protect their investment from your nonsense.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mnn2501 said:


> If you want control over your neighbors, you should live in an HOA and get on their board.
> 
> One small town I lived in for a while, when the parents were away the kids would play their music really loud with the windows open (everyone left their windows open in the summer). I got fed up one time and turned my stereo up really loud blasting Mozarts Requiem for the Dead. I didn't have too many problems after that.


LOL no need to join a HOA I know of a few wealthy individuals In Alaska who didn't like jet skis being allowed to use the open Ocean marine preserve in front of their places. They Got the rules changed to exclude jet skis even though it raised the risk to the very environment the park was supposed to protect.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

crehberg said:


> Spoil their view of what? It's a working farm with equipment parked on a fencerow. Been that way long as I can remember. It ain't blocking nobody's view of anything...some folks just dont like seeing farm equipment apparently. I guess I'm a little confused cause I'm not understanding why farm equipment on a farm would be a problem even if it did block a view (which would be of my property, by the way)...


LOL interesting the way you changed the question. You kept saying block after I said spoil.
Yes some people would rather look at nature than machinery or fields. Back to the original question, even though its your right Why do you feel entitled to spoil that?


----------



## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

AmericanStand said:


> LOL interesting the way you changed the question. You kept saying block after I said spoil.
> Yes some people would rather look at nature than machinery or fields. Back to the original question, even though its your right Why do you feel entitled to spoil that?


I can answer that, its because he owns the property.


----------



## Wanda (Dec 19, 2002)

Grey Mare said:


> We own 40 acres and have several neighbors who don't seem to understand boundary lines or no trespass signs. One neighbor a half mile away was letting his hound dogs out at night, we caught them several times harassing our horses, chasing them around and being a general nuisance. I asked the owner to please keep them on his property, contain them in their kennel and the reason why. He became very belligerent so animal control came out and spoke to him and let him know, in VA this is a livestock state, if I felt his dogs were going to harm my horses or became vicious, I could, on my own property, legally shoot them and he would have no recourse, which I told him I or my husband would as our horses are elderly and could hurt themselves.
> 
> He then stated his dogs were being trained for "**** hunting" and that gave him the right to allow them to be out at night, that they could not read no trespass signs or know boundaries, and if they got away from him it wasn't his fault. Fish and Game backed that up, as this is a HUGE issue with people using this an excuse to just let their dogs roam, and even they have tried to get the laws changed using hunting dogs to flush deer and others doing the above, but it has always been voted down.
> 
> Because this neighbor knew I was serious when I said my horses come first, so does their health and well being, I have not since seen the dogs on our property. That is my own pet peeve, is unlicensed, loose animals roaming around causing havoc. You have animals in the country, then be responsible and keep them on YOUR property.



Why did this exact post appear in the great outdoors section by a different poster??


----------



## geo in mi (Nov 14, 2008)

I have my neighbors under complete control...… and they don't even know it. I use "psy ops" on 'em……

geo


----------



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Grey Mare said:


> He then stated his dogs were being trained for "**** hunting" and that gave him the right to *allow them to be out at night*, that they could not read no trespass signs or know boundaries, and if they got away from him it wasn't his fault.
> *
> Fish and Game backed that up*


Virginia's hunting regulations state dogs can only be trained *during open seasons* and only during daylight hours for some game. ***** aren't mentioned in the exceptions:

https://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting/regulations/general/


> Bobcats, foxes, raccoons, and opossums may be hunted by day or night *during authorized seasons.*
> Raccoons may be hunted until 2:00 a.m. on Sundays. No other Sunday hunting of raccoons is permitted.





> *Training Dogs*
> *The training of dogs on live wild animals is considered hunting* and you must have a valid hunting license while training, and is *unlawful during the closed season* except as noted below.
> 
> 
> ...





> *Raccoon*
> *Bag Limit:*
> 
> *East of the Blue Ridge:* Two per hunter taken between noon one day and noon the following day.
> ...


From March 10 until October 15 he can't legally run those dogs loose, unless the website is incorrect.

https://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting/regulations/furbearerhunting/#raccoon


----------



## crehberg (Mar 16, 2008)

AmericanStand said:


> LOL interesting the way you changed the question. You kept saying block after I said spoil.
> Yes some people would rather look at nature than machinery or fields. Back to the original question, even though its your right Why do you feel entitled to spoil that?


Ok... I'm going to try to be nice here...I'm not "spoiling" anybody's view. It's farm country. Farm equipment is the norm. It had been that way for, heck, at least 100 years here. Our old grist mill used to sit within 25 feet of the road. Never had a complaint.

There is plenty of nature to view. I've got pine trees, pecan trees, privet, oak, corn fields all by the road. Nobody has asked me to move my corn yet. Guess if they do I ought to move it further back from the road so I'm not SPOILING nature.

If anything, all these new houses are spoiling my view. I ain't particularly fond of all these houses so close together...but it's their right to do it...and I won't complain.

It's sad when a man's livelihood is affected by a bunch of folks with too much time on there hands to complain. If you don't think my place is "natural"...compare it to the city...I believe you'll come on back.

Heck, I'll even offer you a glass of sweet tea...and I won't correct your grammar, neither!

PS: I don't believe I'm "entitled" to anything, besides life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness/ownership of property. However, I do feel that by owning that property, I have a certain vested interest to maintain it in the best way possible to provide for the future. To do that, in my case, involves using obsolete equipment. If someone convinced me of a better way to do it, I'd be happy to. Nobody's gotten that far yet. Seems like when I start mentioning cost they "run for the hills"...


----------



## larryp (Jun 10, 2018)

haypoint said:


> Glad it worked out for you. There are always two truths to consider in such situations. 1.) Push comes to Shove. 2.) Every war is won by the side that is the most ruthless. Right now, it seems you are seen as the most ruthless/crazy. Right now, no one wants to up the auntie. I'm cool with a backstop and an occasional target practice, but out of common (uncommon?) decency, if me and the crew are going to run through a few thousand rounds, I'd take it to a range. "Mag dumps from the AKs" makes you a bad neighbor. Property rights and township ordinances are not based on seniority. "New Comer" doesn't have to put up with any violations and is likely to get some ordinances enacted to protect their investment from your nonsense.


Nearest township is 15 miles away. This is open range country. The newer neighbors are people who bought land 1/2 mile up the road where a guy subdivided the farm he inherited. Nearest gun range is 20 miles away and run by a skeet shooting club who seldom have anyone there to open the range up to the public for target practice. People often call the number for someone to show up to open, it only to be told no one's available to come open it. Several of the other neighbors target practice too and shoot predators that come around. When you live 1/2 a mile away in an area that's considered open range ( yes that law still exists here) then you don't get to tell me what to do on my own land.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

crehberg said:


> Ok... I'm going to try to be nice here...I'm not "spoiling" anybody's view. It's farm country. Farm equipment is the norm. It had been that way for, heck, at least 100 years here. Our old grist mill used to sit within 25 feet of the road. Never had a complaint.
> 
> There is plenty of nature to view. ..............
> .......
> ...



You hit both points I was wanting to explore. 
You feel entitled to change the few since you were there first. 

You also dont like the newcomers spoiling the view with houses. 

So honestly if it was like water rights where it was rights to the first user it would suit you perfectly. 

Btw I farm too. Have lots of junk around and don’t wanna look at others also. 
Might stop by for that tea......


----------



## Teej (Jan 14, 2012)

On one side and behind us we have farm fields, on the other side a hunting property with a cabin that is very rarely used. Only neighbors relatively close live across the road and we built our house far enough off the road that what they do over there doesn't concern us much. Sometimes they have different ideas about our side of the road but we let them know it is none of their business who we let mushroom hunt on our property, what time we come home, or if we burn the hay left behind around the hay rings.


----------



## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

For twenty years I lived on a ranch in southern Arizona. It wasn't a very large ranch, just the two hundred and fifty sections in front of the house. Every weekend we would be overrun by dirt bikes, quads, target shooters, hunters, and illegal dumping. They would cut the fences, tear down corrals for firewood, and just generally enjoy themselves. I did not own the ranch. I had an agreement with the owner to keep the trespassers away.

Whenever I would encounter any of these people I would ask them to load up their toys, gather their trash, and leave. Among the many colorful replies I received over the years was," It's just wild desert country. There isn't anybody around for miles, why can't we do whatever we want."

A few years ago I moved to the mountains in western New Mexico. I bought fifteen acres on an old ranch that was subdivided twenty years ago. I fenced my property, dug a well, and had power hooked up. No one but me lived in the entire subdivision. The lots had all been sold, but nobody lived there full time.

A young couple bought one of the lots, moved in an old camper and started living there. The young man had seen one of my dogs along his property line. The couple walked over and asked me why my dog was allowed to run loose. I explained that he was guarding my goats. The young lady asked, "Why do you need a guard dog, and who would steal a goat?".

I explained that the dog, a one hundred and forty pound Anatolian Shepherd, was guarding the goats from the coyotes, wolves, lions, and bears that lived in the area. She got a scared look on her face and asked, "Are there wild animals around here."

I noticed a new For Sale sign next to their driveway a few days ago.

Ok, so now I will get to the point. The vast majority of people you meet are just too stupid to understand the concept of private property. They think that if they can't see a house they must be in the wilderness, and should be allowed to do whatever they choose. So I no longer try to explain anything to people, it's just too much trouble. I have NO TRESSPASSING signs along my fence line, and I keep the gate closed.

I am lucky to have found land in such a remote place, my nearest neighbor is miles away and I haven't seen him in years. I don't care what my neighbors do, as long as they leave me alone.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> Could you elaborate?


Which part of freedom to use my property as I see fit troubles you? It follows perfectly That if I am going to have that right, so should my neighbor.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

muleskinner2 said:


> The vast majority of people you meet are just too stupid to understand the concept of private property. They think that if they can't see a house they must be in the wilderness, and should be allowed to do whatever they choose


Lots of city folks haul their quads up north and have no respect for private property. In an attempt to educate, I've asked a few if they'd give me their address so next time I'm down state, I could rip around on their property or set up a barbeque? Seems many feel that because I own so much land, I should share it's use.


----------



## crehberg (Mar 16, 2008)

AmericanStand said:


> You hit both points I was wanting to explore.
> You feel entitled to change the few since you were there first.
> 
> You also dont like the newcomers spoiling the view with houses.
> ...


Yes, I don't like "the newcomers"....but it's their right to be here and I won't complain. Let 'em build. I'm not trying to change them at all. If I truly believed I was creating a nuisance...I would move the stuff. I have much less equipment side of the fenceline than most farmers in this area do.

But hey, to each their own.


----------



## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

Today's To Do List-

1.Feed and water livestock
2.Make up a fresh batch of dog food
3.Mow two acres of pasture
4.Tear down old retaining wall next to house
5.Pick up trailer load of rock and materials
6.Cut up and burn branches from recently dead fall oak tree
7.Finish some accounting and book work in the office
8.Knock on all neighboring doors to confirm I am not presently offending them in any manner with the condition of my home or property. Leave notes with phone numbers for those not home to respond and a cell phone reminder to self to followup.
9.Erect signs along my frontage "Honk if you approve".

Today's Revised List-
1. Mind my own business and make sure it get's done.
2. All naysayers, busy bodies and those with comments, questions and concerns are invited thru out the day and this evening
to stop by and kiss my ass...


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Easier to put up with the neighbors when you are the biggest mess, have the most barking/wandering dogs, loudest shooting range, biggest pile of old tires and junk cars.
Harder when you want the community to be peace and quiet, attractive and desirable.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Easier to put up with the neighbors when you are the biggest mess, have the most barking/wandering dogs, loudest shooting range, biggest pile of old tires and junk cars.
> Harder when you want the community to be peace and quiet, *attractive and desirable*.


Interesting choice of words what makes you think"wandering dogs, loudest shooting range, biggest pile of old tires and junk cars" are not "attractive and desirable"?


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Which part of freedom to use my property as I see fit troubles you? It follows perfectly That if I am going to have that right, so should my neighbor.


But what if "how I see fit" conflicts with how the neighbor sees fit?


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

AmericanStand said:


> But what if "how I see fit" conflicts with how the neighbor sees fit?


I said this on page one. Either buy them out or sell to them. Its just that simple. You cant control them anymore than they can control you....


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Since no one can buy out the whole world I don't see how it would work. And since some of my neighbors hundreds of miles away control what I can do on my place it seems a bit incorrect.


----------



## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

AmericanStand said:


> Since no one can buy out the whole world I don't see how it would work. And since some of my neighbors hundreds of miles away control what I can do on my place it seems a bit incorrect.


No one said you had to buy in that state. there are 50 states you can look at their laws and a whole mess of different countries.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

TripleD said:


> I said this on page one. Either buy them out or sell to them. Its just that simple. You cant control them anymore than they can control you....


Sort of how it works. If you find your community devolving into a rural slum, you sell out. Those attracted to your piece of slum may set the standard by being more of a PITA, junk, burning tires, loud music at all hours. One by one, every property owner seeking natural beauty, peace and quiet and safety, sells out, often at a loss, is replaced with "if you don't like my trash piles, noise, tarpaper shacks, falling in mobile homes, then don't look" folks. The property values continue to drop, no one wants to live in the community, banks won't approve any improvement loans.
When people have a sense of community, pride in their surroundings, concern in the happiness of those neighbors that we interdepend upon, the community increases in desirability. When property does sell, the price reflects the demand for clean, safe, quiet community, often pricing out those seeking a meth lab location, a **** dog kennel, appliance graveyard or monthly militia shot-offs.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mnn2501 said:


> No one said you had to buy in that state. there are 50 states you can look at their laws and a whole mess of different countries.


How would that help?


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

haypoint said:


> Sort of how it works. If you find your community devolving into a rural slum, you sell out. Those attracted to your piece of slum may set the standard by being more of a PITA, junk, burning tires, loud music at all hours. One by one, every property owner seeking natural beauty, peace and quiet and safety, sells out, often at a loss, is replaced with "if you don't like my trash piles, noise, tarpaper shacks, falling in mobile homes, then don't look" folks. The property values continue to drop, no one wants to live in the community, banks won't approve any improvement loans.
> When people have a sense of community, pride in their surroundings, concern in the happiness of those neighbors that we interdepend upon, the community increases in desirability. When property does sell, the price reflects the demand for clean, safe, quiet community, often pricing out those seeking a meth lab location, a **** dog kennel, appliance graveyard or monthly militia shot-offs.


Sounds like HOAs are the way to wealth then.


----------



## Fishindude (May 19, 2015)

I had some hillbilly neighbors next door that I didn't like. Running loud dirt bikes all the time, yard was never kept up, junk everywhere, etc. Lucky for me they got a divorce and went broke, so I bought the place at sheriffs sale, bulldozed it and put it back into farm ground.


----------



## Grey Mare (Jun 28, 2013)

Wanda said:


> Why did this exact post appear in the great outdoors section by a different poster??


Is it under my nickname?! If not, don't know..have had this nickname for a while on here...


----------



## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

AmericanStand said:


> How would that help?


If you don't like the laws your state has controlling land use, then move.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> But what if "how I see fit" conflicts with how the neighbor sees fit?


My neighbor has as much right to his opinion as I have to mine. He is free to practice his beliefs on his property same as I am on mine. Taking this stance prevents many problems and lightens the load on an already overworked justice system.


----------



## larryp (Jun 10, 2018)

haypoint said:


> Sort of how it works. If you find your community devolving into a rural slum, you sell out. Those attracted to your piece of slum may set the standard by being more of a PITA, junk, burning tires, loud music at all hours. One by one, every property owner seeking natural beauty, peace and quiet and safety, sells out, often at a loss, is replaced with "if you don't like my trash piles, noise, tarpaper shacks, falling in mobile homes, then don't look" folks. The property values continue to drop, no one wants to live in the community, banks won't approve any improvement loans.
> When people have a sense of community, pride in their surroundings, concern in the happiness of those neighbors that we interdepend upon, the community increases in desirability. When property does sell, the price reflects the demand for clean, safe, quiet community, often pricing out those seeking a meth lab location, a **** dog kennel, appliance graveyard or monthly militia shot-offs.


You keep bringing up being part of a "community" a lot. If I wanted to be part of "a community" I'd live in the suburbs. I moved out here to be away from people and have nothing to do with most of my neighbors. The vast majority of people out here are the same.


----------



## krackin (Nov 2, 2014)

Hmmmmm. Wondering what the neighbors are scheming.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

larryp said:


> You keep bringing up being part of a "community" a lot. If I wanted to be part of "a community" I'd live in the suburbs. I moved out here to be away from people and have nothing to do with most of my neighbors. The vast majority of people out here are the same.


Sort of nice to have a passing neighbor pull you out of a ditch on an icy day or give you a ride when your truck breaks down.
My "community" needed a 2 mile road, through a swamp, to shorten the distance for the community sponsored fire trucks and ambulance. Members of the community cut trees and brush, 123 feet wide and two miles long. Then other members of the community held a few fish fries at the Town Hall and held a Blue Grass music festival each summer for a few years to raise money for gravel. One member of the community, member of a local National Guard, had some equipment brought out to give the guys a place to practice digging stumps and ditches. After ten years, the community had a nice gravel road.
Each spring, after the snow melts, members of the community pick up trash along all the roads. Sort of a community pride thing.


----------



## larryp (Jun 10, 2018)

"Sort of nice to have a passing neighbor pull you out of a ditch on an icy day or give you a ride when your truck breaks down."
4wd will get me out of any of the ditches on my road ( and I'm smart enough to drive careful so I don't go in them in the first place) and I have more than one rig if one is broke down. But I have had to pull a couple of the yuppies from up the hill out when they got stuck. As for road improvements that was what caused more people to move out here. Some of the landowners petitioned the county to pave the old washboard, gravel road that was under a foot of water in one spot come spring runoff. Up until then very few people wanted to drive down such a rough road except for some of the oldtimers. Once it was made smooth and ditches put along the sides ( we had none to slide into before then) then there was an explosion in the number of people in that subdivided section up the road a ways. Now people wish we'd never gotten it paved. Helps that the county has only patched it over and over again over the last 15 or so years so it's getting rough again. And no one is asking for it to be repaved either. Nice thing about this remote part is the subdivided area is up on top where people have a steep 1/4 mile long hill that during winter is really hard to get up. Especially since we're low on the county's priority list for plowing. It'll often be a week after a storm before we get plowed. A lot of those who moved there have left after spending a winter out here.


----------



## TripleD (Feb 12, 2011)

haypoint said:


> Sort of how it works. If you find your community devolving into a rural slum, you sell out. Those attracted to your piece of slum may set the standard by being more of a PITA, junk, burning tires, loud music at all hours. One by one, every property owner seeking natural beauty, peace and quiet and safety, sells out, often at a loss, is replaced with "if you don't like my trash piles, noise, tarpaper shacks, falling in mobile homes, then don't look" folks. The property values continue to drop, no one wants to live in the community, banks won't approve any improvement loans.
> When people have a sense of community, pride in their surroundings, concern in the happiness of those neighbors that we interdepend upon, the community increases in desirability. When property does sell, the price reflects the demand for clean, safe, quiet community, often pricing out those seeking a meth lab location, a **** dog kennel, appliance graveyard or monthly militia shot-offs.


Well how I do it is from the other direction. One place comes up for sale I buy it. One acre adjacent to my forty across the road 5k and no mobile home on it now. Six acres with a run done house '' lightening struck it'' after I bought it now in the middle of the pasture....


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

mnn2501 said:


> If you don't like the laws your state has controlling land use, then move.


 I can’t see how that would help.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> My neighbor has as much right to his opinion as I have to mine. He is free to practice his beliefs on his property same as I am on mine. Taking this stance prevents many problems and lightens the load on an already overworked justice system.


 It seems to me like it would have the opposite effect with every adjacent landowner battling in the porch over what the neighbors have a right to do


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

larryp said:


> You keep bringing up being part of a "community" a lot. If I wanted to be part of "a community" I'd live in the suburbs. I moved out here to be away from people and have nothing to do with most of my neighbors. The vast majority of people out here are the same.


 Well it’s too bad about that since whether you like it or not you’re part of the community.
The community of your town Township county state country and world they are all your neighbors whether you like it or not.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

TripleD said:


> Well how I do it is from the other direction. One place comes up for sale I buy it. One acre adjacent to my forty across the road 5k and no mobile home on it now. Six acres with a run done house '' lightening struck it'' after I bought it now in the middle of the pasture....


My closest neighbor, 1/4 mile away had health problems and had to move to town. Her house was small and needed a bunch of fixing up. The well was questionable and the septic just a steel tank. She wanted $15,000. I did now want or need it.
But I cherish my community, its peace and quiet and lack of blight. A low cost home might be attractive to someone with a lifestyle that is abrasive to my values. So, I bought it, made extensive repairs and rented it out. Lost money or broke even for a few years, left it empty a few years, my son lived in it while going to local university and eventually it was sold and moved to another site.
But everyone needs to consider how their own piece of paradise will be impacted, worse case scenario, when a nearby home/lot/land comes up for sale.
You can also get involved with a township planning board. Every few decades, the community looks at how they'd like the area to be in the future. Then a Zoning Board sets restrictions that guide towards that goal.
My community was getting more than our share of tiny tar paper shacks and as downstate trailer parks booted out the outdated mobile homes, they were hauled to this township. So, Zoning was enacted that required a minimum of 700 square feet and met HUD plumbing and electrical standards of 1980.
Township officials sent out a ten page questionnaire, asking land owners what they wanted zoning to do. They were surprised that while the dozen residents that showed up at Township meetings arguing against zoning, most people wanted less junk cars, open trash or dog kennels.


----------



## catsboy (May 14, 2015)

TripleD said:


> Well how I do it is from the other direction. One place comes up for sale I buy it. One acre adjacent to my forty across the road 5k and no mobile home on it now. Six acres with a run done house '' lightening struck it'' after I bought it now in the middle of the pasture....


I had a similar situation, Neighbor needed money, fell on hard times with health issues, he was going to put a mobile home in the pasture next to my property and rent it. I offered him 10k for 5 acres next to my place and he was very happy to take it. He really did not want "renters" on his property either. The bonus was my 12 acres went to 17 acres and that allowed me to greenbelt my farm and cut my taxes in half. So in 33 years the property pays for itself.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Lol so The golden rule wins again. He has the gold makes the rules.


----------



## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

AmericanStand said:


> It seems to me like it would have the opposite effect with every adjacent landowner battling in the porch over what the neighbors have a right to do


Most folks in my area seem to get along quite well using this method. Very few "battles" in our neighborhood. Your mileage may vary.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Do you suppose it might be because so many rulers rights and traditions are already in place ?
For instance you won’t need to sue your neighbor for a smoke damage to your house if EPA rules have already kept them from burning the house next to yours down.


----------



## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

How about none of the above choices for you poll.

My answer would be that they must follow all laws (including zoning laws) in place when they bought the property, but should not have to follow any changes to laws after their purchase date.


----------



## Meinecke (Jun 30, 2017)

@mnn2501...i agree with your first part of the sentence, but the second is not my thinking...since it was ok 1950 to do oilchange in backyard and burn tires for for fun...and now we know that is bad...so the laws changed, and so should the land owner obey them when they change...
And the EPA is not a standard anymore since it is underfunded and controlled by an oil lobby heads man...So everything that is coming from them since dump got elected, will probably just turn back hat ever got achieved


----------



## mnn2501 (Apr 2, 2008)

What do you have against oil changes in the backyard? I always did my own oil changes until I got too old to crawl around under the car. I did them in the driveway rather than the back yard. Almost everyone I know that can, does their own oil changes.

No one around here has ever burnt tires in their yard when I've been around nor did they do so when I was growing up in the 50's


----------



## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Changing oil at home is not the problem. 

Do not assume that all DIY folks dump used oil on the ground.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

When I was young lots of used tires when back for caps. 
Had a somewhat distant neighbor that Burnt chunks of tires for heat sometimes. You could always tell when he was.


----------



## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

I forgot to mention that this township has a total population of about 600 people. We have two Fire houses, with lots of trained volunteers, an ambulance with lots of trained EMT volunteers, house doors are generally kept unlocked and the keys stay in the ignition.


----------



## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Sounds a lot like where I live.


----------

