# Best general purpose farm gun?



## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

I recently bought 14 acres with an acre pond near a creek and surrounded by lots of huge hay fields and very few neighbors. I'm moving there soon, from a somewhat suburban lifestyle near Houston to this central Texas location, which is bigger, more remote, and more likely to harbor undesirable critters than my place in Houston did. Thus, I'm thinking I need some type of general purpose gun for non-specific, but definitley not antagonistic means. I figure the worst thing I may come up against is the occasional coyote, and that more likely I'll be seeing water mocs and copperheads because of the tank/pond. But maybe other critters as well?

I'll be on the property with my Dobie, a good boy but a city dog, so I don't know how he'd do if confronted with an undesirable - probably bark and run. I'm in the process of having the entire perimeter fenced with livestock fencing, so maybe that will be enough to keep the 'yotes out? I will have horses and possibly goats on the land, and also plan on having chickens, geese, rabbits - all of which I already own and am anxious to have home again!  Therefore I also plan to get a Pyr (have owned and shown them in the past and will be glad to have one again), but I haven't had time to work towards that particular acquisition yet!

I still think that having a gun would be a good idea, simply because I've never lived in this part of the country before and don't really know what to expect. I may have cougars - and lions and tigers and bears - oh my!!!! LOL!! So, what kind would be the best to have, given my circumstances and the fact that I'm not exactly an expert? I've shot handguns at a range before (my ex's Glock 9mm), but that's about it. I'm pretty strong, but I don't want something that'll knock me on my hiney if I try to shoot with it! Other than that I don't even know what would qualify as a good one for a woman? Easy to load? Matches the sofa? Y'all tell me!

Am awaiting your expert opinions....

Pam  <----- wants to be a gun-totin' outlaw!! Well, not really an outlaw, per se....


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## Paranoid (Oct 30, 2004)

Well for just critters around the farm, and since it's your first gun, you really only have 1 choice:

get a .22LR (ruger, mossburg.. whatever lights your fire) 5,000 rounds and when your all done shooting that and if you still want another gun, then make a decision with that experience. We cant tell you what is best for you, but it is generally accepted that starting with a .22 is the best way to go weather you are male, female, youngster or adult.


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## whistler (Apr 20, 2005)

My vote would be a pump shotgun--either a 12 or 20 gauge. For things like snakes you could load it with standard shotshells with several hundred pellets. For larger critters slugs would be an option. For the random bad guy it would be hard to go wrong with buckshot--plus the noise of a pump shotgun chambering a round is pretty unmistakeable and definately unnerving.

A new, decent shotgun would set you back about 3 bills or so. I would recommend a Remington 870--largely because I have a couple and love them. They make a youth/woman sized gun if you are of smaller stature.

I think this would the ideal all purpose gun for a non-hunting homesteader. If you were planning on hunting deer it would probably be inadequate for your area of the country. A handgun would be pretty worthless as an everyday tool IMHO.

Whistler


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## johnghagen (Feb 3, 2004)

A 20 gage mossberg or remington shot gun will fit the bill not to big but enough and you dont have to be that accurate


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## Mountain Mick (Sep 10, 2005)

Hi Yes I would say a .22LR would be fine . But I can't go past my old trusty .410 shot gun, I can kill cans with it, as well as snakes, rats, feral cats and foxes don't like it much either. You can shot pigeon & dove and the odd rabbit and hare. and you can get soild for it as well, which what I use on big backfatter pigs.

I would say find a gun shop how has a taget range for testing . Ask them if you can try out and coulpe guns they are normally welcome to help.

P.S I would also suggest you looking to getting a Jack Russel or standard fox terrier.

Hope this helps

Mick :viking:


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## Paranoid (Oct 30, 2004)

problem with shotguns is they teach flinching quite effectively, and the ammo is expensive.

do it right, not macho. get the .22, 5k rounds and when you're done you can make an educated decision for where to go next, if you still need a "next."


$250 will buy you what, a few hundred rounds of buckshot? maybe 100 rounds of slugs? or 5-10k .22lr rounds.. trigger time is trigger time.

the breathing, sight acquisition and trigger control remain relatively constant.


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## Ozarks_1 (Jan 11, 2003)

A shotgun is a good choice, but they're rather tiresome to lug around while doing chores. The same applies to rifles - even .22s. 

Since you've shot handguns before, I'd suggest getting a .38 revolver. With a revolver, you can alternately load shotshells (often called "rat shot") with regular hollow point ammo. The shotshells work well on snakes and the hollow points work well for "more serious" duty. The .38 has sufficiently low recoil so you shouldn't have a problem.


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## moonwolf (Sep 20, 2004)

2horses said:


> I'm pretty strong, but I don't want something that'll knock me on my hiney if I try to shoot with it! Other than that I don't even know what would qualify as a good one for a woman? Easy to load? Matches the sofa? Y'all tell me!
> 
> Am awaiting your expert opinions....
> 
> Pam  <----- wants to be a gun-totin' outlaw!! Well, not really an outlaw, per se....


Pam,

Get yourself a winchester or marlin 30:30. One that is lever action is small, quick and easy to use, yet not imposing. A good brush gun, or for mid range. It will nail a coyote or badger if you really had to. It might be a bit 'over calibered' for squirrel or small game, so I might also have a good ole pump 20 guage marlin that also has nice woodwork to got with the sofa. 
You need to be a 2 gun handler. Practice with both shotgun on trap and the rifle on target for handling and accuracy. Suggest maybe check with your conservation department about gun safety courses. That would be a great start and also a confidence booster. You'll also learn from them the game and vermin/varmints around that could trouble you or make you an extra stew. 

Rich


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## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

2horses,

Before you buy anything, sign yourself up for a hunter safety class in your area. They are generally free and it will give you firearm basics and depending how it is run, may teach you how to shoot various weapons. I think every woman (as well as men) should be trained how to safely handle any weapon that is going to be in her house. Knowledge, respect and confidence will eliminate fear and reduce accidents.

If you are looking for only one gun, then I would recommend a 20 gauge pump shotgun (either a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500). The 20 gauge because it will have less kick than a 12 gauge. Pump because it is a simplier action. And there is no more distinctive and awe inspiring sound than the cycling of a pump action shotgun to a stranger. It gets everyones attention!  

After you have a shotgun, then I would look at a .22 rifle. It is good for practicing your shooting skills, plinking and dispatching of small vermin that could indanger your animals (rats, gophers and such).

After the shotgun and the 22 rifle, I would then get a rifle that will be effective on coyotes. I like military surplus firearms, they are well built, simple, tough and inexpensive to own. So an SKS would be a good choice IMHO. Relatively cheap (under $150 or so), low recoil, cheap ammo and effective on small to medium game or varmints. My oldest son will be using one for deer hunting this year. He is 5'7" and about 100 lbs.

One final thing, learn how to clean and keep your weapons in top condition. Nothing is more pitiful than a gun that doesn't work because it is fouled (dirty) or rusted to the point of being an expensive club.  

I hope that helps.

Share the Love,

Diamondtim


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## lapdog59 (Aug 25, 2005)

You don't really need anything for snakes but a large rock. You probably will never need a gun for mountain lions and bear in Texas. I think a 22 LR and a 20 gauge shotgun would be all you need. A pump 20 gauge is good for human varmits if you ever have need for one. Both can be used for a variety situations of hunting and varmits around the homestead and are enjoyable to shoot. You get good with both and you can probably outshoot most men and their bigger cannons. If you get proficient with a 22 LR, you may want to getting a larger varmit and/or deer rifle.


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## fordy (Sep 13, 2003)

....................Pam , in reference to shotguns , you should give consideration to the type of Pattern that the barrel is designed to deliver...there are (3) , Open =short range , BIG shot pattern , blunderbuss type where the shot "scatter out" and lose their energy quickly . , Modified = probably the most widely chosen as it gives longer range , tighter pattern and a higher concentration of "hits" into the varmit you're aiming at . Full choke = smallest shot pattern , highest concentration of energy and range delivered to the target . Full choke is what I prefer for quail and dove hunting . 
...................There are calibers of varmit rifles just a shade larger than a 22 that are shooter friendly and deliver a significantly higher kill capability such as the 220 swift , 218 B , etc. so see about trying some of these larger caliber of rifles and actually shoot them to get a feel for something other than just a 22 . fordy...


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## TerryJ (Oct 4, 2004)

A over under it has a 22 on top & 410 on the bottom.


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## seedspreader (Oct 18, 2004)

Paranoid said:


> problem with shotguns is they teach flinching quite effectively, and the ammo is expensive.
> 
> do it right, not macho. get the .22, 5k rounds and when you're done you can make an educated decision for where to go next, if you still need a "next."
> 
> ...


With 250 you could by a .22 and a single shot 12, 20 or .410 around here and still have 50 to kick around for ammo.


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## papaw (Jan 21, 2005)

870 pump ...good all around gun and not easy to miss with. Then move on to a 22 ...then a small frame 38 for in the house.


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## Lerxt (Feb 22, 2005)

Very happy with my new Ruger 10-22. Synthetic stock for easy maintenance. I don't care how it looks. It's a tool. Lots of ***** would be rather upset with it had they survived the encounter. Also have a Sig Sauer .380 pistol for something a little more forcefull / personal.

The .22 is not a bad idea. Ammo is stupid cheap. I think I spend $8 for 500 rounds (at the chain sporting goods place so probably not the best price). I need to go get a few boxes and really work with it.

Next is a shotgun. Need to do my homework there. Wouldn't mind getting a deer permit and taking one this fall. They wander by so I won't even have to "go hunting".


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## Paranoid (Oct 30, 2004)

Zealyouthguy:
2 guns she doesn't know how to use, and not much ammo.

Buy *1* gun and *lots* of ammo.

Shotguns are nice, and she should own one, but it should be her second gun after she has had 5-10k .22lr downrange.


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## ponyexpress (Feb 15, 2003)

I'd say a 20 gauge shotgun, I have a Mossberg. Make sure you get someone to teach you to use it properly. I always wear a padded vest, ear & eye protection when I shoot mine. Practicing with field load is NOT that expensive. One you get the hang of it, try some buckshot and slugs. (They cost more and kick harder).
I'm 5'7" and weigh 135 lbs. I can shoot dh's 30-30 and am comfortable with it --- but it kicks HARDER than my 20 gauge. And for some reason, a woman with a SHOTGUN just really seems to put fear into the most hard headed man.
Handgun --- your call there. Whatever you feel comfortable with. I don't think I'd want to be carrying a Glock around livestock. DH always says the only purpose of a handgun is to fight your way back to your long gun anyway! My favorite is our black powder Navy Arms 44. Not a practical carry gun though --- too big.
Since you said your Dobie is a "city" dog, I'd think getting a PYR and a small "alert" dog would be the way to go. Just make sure they can all get along.
Sounds like you're thinking things thru. Enjoy your property!
Anne


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## rickd203 (Sep 11, 2005)

I think a revolver would be better for carrying with you while you work your farm. I like a .357 or .44 mag with a longer barrel for better accuracy. I would put shot shells in half the chambers and slugs in the other half. This would be good for snakes or other varmints within 50 yards. 

Since coyotes rarely come that close, you will probably need something with better range. I did some checking and although people recommended all kinds of guns, will probably go with something in the .223 caliber. It is the same round that is in the M-16 that I shot in the military. Even without a scope, it was easy to hit targets 150 yards or more. 

I found a site http://www.bushmaster.com that has several .223 caliber guns. I was going to order a Bushmaster Carbon 15 Type 21S pistol with a shoulder stock and a scope. At 3-5 lbs. it is real easy to carry around and it should still have good range. It also looks like something that no two-legged varmint would want to mess with. I'm going have to reorder it when I get to Oklahoma since the company can't ship to The Peoples Republic of Connecticut.

Rick


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## SteveD(TX) (May 14, 2002)

I like the .22/.410 over and under idea. Used to have one and I've kicked myself over and over for selling it. They are kind of expensive. If not that, a 20 gauge pump would be hard to beat, esp. for snakes and such. Two or three guns are ideal, however, as others have suggested.

Wow, a pretty girl posting a question about guns. Bet this thread goes to over a hundred replies real quick.

BTW - how's that 8N working out?


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## woodspirit (Aug 3, 2005)

I use landmines and flame filled ditches.


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## patarini (Nov 19, 2004)

Paranoid has it right -- learn first to shoot -- the lessons apply to any gun after! But for snakes? a good sharp hoe works fine! Coyotes? Live and let live the first year -- or use the 22. Idiot neighbors? A broom at close range! 22 rifle first, match with a 22 pistol second -- ammo cheap!


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## scott (May 11, 2002)

IMHO .....

For your first gun get something the will reach (and kill) to every corner of that 14 acres.... 22-250, 30-06, 30-30, ......308 is cheap to shoot but might be an awful big bang for a newbie .....search for an HK G3 (semi auto)... or a remington 700 (it will let the neighbors know your serious) ...... a 9mm pistol is nice and cheap to shoot .... search for a Browning High Power (it's nice to carry a pistol, a rifle is always getting in the way and they get heavy after awhile) 

A Jp Sauer Drilling would be perfect ...... but it cost as much as the fence

the coyotes will always be just a little further than you can shoot...so get something that will cover the farm.

Just like the fence .... cover the perimeter first ..... :goodjob:


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## texican (Oct 4, 2003)

Pam
Get a Ruger 10-22. It's a .22 rifle, with a shorter stock than a normal rifle or shotgun. A .22 bullet will solve all of your small varmint problems, up to and including coyotes, if they're close enough. A vast array of add ons are available, from stocks to barrels, and everything in between, to truly customize the gun to your taste.

BONUS....
If you buy one and don't like it, PM me, I'll buy it. Got one already, but can always use a backup.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2005)

I'll go along with TerryJ and steve. I have a Savage over&under. 20 guage on bottom and 22 L.R. on top. I grew up with one glued to my hands. It will take care of small game as well as large game, also game birds and coyotes. You might shell out some bucks for one tho as they don't make them anymore. 

www.gunsamerica.com

check this site out and look for Savage over and unders. They are just the right size for kids and women. My over and under barrel is only about 20 inches long with about 12 inches of gun stock. Making it a great gun for women and kids to use. I plan on passing my over and under to my children to use and then they can fight over it when I die.


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Trouble with snakes is they allways appear when you do not have that rock or hoe in your hands.

If you've gotten Real nervous apond engaging a copperhead, then that 20ga is Far easier to put an end to your nervousness.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

DW's absolute favorite gun now is a tiny Rossi single shot 410 shotgun that also has a 22LR barrel and a carrying case. She kept the birds far from the garden this summer, shot the one gopher who tried to set up shop, and hunts jackrabbits with both barrels. It weighs maybe 3 pounds. And it costs $139, retail. 

Until you have some experience, you won't do good or enjoy shooting a 30-06 or any other similar rifle. And a medium to large caliber handgun is also a waste of time. You can and will learn how, but start out with a 22LR rifle and/or pistol to learn the basics. If you have coyotes that are a problem, get a rabbit whistle and a squeaker and call them up close to shoot them.


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## Kenneth in NC (Nov 20, 2002)

I love threads like this. Such diversification of choices. 2Horses I bought my daughter a Rossi .410/22LR interchangeable barrel combo as her first gun. Being a single shot it teaches you to aim and hit your target. Being able to change out the barrel in about 45 seconds gives you a choice of a 22 rifle or a .410 shot gun.

It's lightweight. add a simple sling and it carries easy. Put a rifle bullet holder on the stock and when in .410 mode you have 9 extra shells waiting to be used. I mix my DD with express .410 shot shells, slugs, and 00 buck a little something for most that shes likely to run into.

A 10/22 is an excellet choice if you need a slightly smaller rifle. Get a couple extra 10 round magazines and a 30 round magazine and your ready to have some fun. $50 will get you 2750 rounds of Remington 22LR at Wal-Mart. Mine prefered CCI MInimags till it got broken in then it eats all the 22LR fodder I care to give it. Ruger 10/22 Rifle will run around $150-$219 for plain jane depending on where you live.

If you went with my first choice Rossi combo then a 10/22 in 22 magnum might be a good second choice for coyotes. 

If your like me One gun will never be enough. Just remember this. If you find one you like, can hit with and is 99% reliable. NEVER SELL IT!!!! You'll miss it for years to come. 


Kenneth in NC


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## CG (Sep 14, 2005)

Like everyone said, a .22 is good. So is a Remington 870 express 12 gauge, especially if you get the extra barrel, rifled, it's much better than using rifled slugs. I've used that to hunt deer in places where rifles aren't allowed.


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## Vera (Aug 22, 2003)

Pam, I have a non-descript, second-hand 22LR which I bought at a used-gun shop years ago. Can't remember what brand it is. It works like a charm on anything that I've been getting on my little place here over the last 9 years, ammunition is dirt cheap (so you can practice 'til you fall off the stump), and with the optional scope, it's just fine for hunting too (if you practiced until you fell of the stump). It's relatively light-weight and easy to carry "out of the way" with a sling.

I also have a 20-gauge shotgun (same deal, used gun shop, cheap) which works fine, but is too loud and too heavy for my taste. The good thing about a shotgun, IMO, is that it's safer than a rifle. Meaning, if a bullet goes astray while you fall into a ditch, it might bop into your neighbor in his outhouse. A shotgun doesn't go that far, and the shot spreads out. I use the shotgun if I have to shoot something at night, in the dark, where I'm a few percent less sure just how high the bullet-catcher dirt behind my fence is.

Handguns, I don't know. I find them harder to be accurate with, but maybe that's just me. I'd probably miss a skunk from 10 feet away, with the handgun.

As for practicing, I'd say that once you can consistently hit .22 shell casings on stumps 150 feet away, uphill and downhill and level and across water, you're fit to carry a gun. Less than that, I'd get nervous around ya, LOL! Oh, and find out about the local laws... in some places, it's illegal to shoot a gun after dark, or within a certain distance of occupied buildings, or along or across a road, or from a vehicle (this includes boats), etc. etc. You have to at least KNOW what the law is


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## Kenneth in NC (Nov 20, 2002)

So 2 horses have you made a choice?


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## lonewolf (May 28, 2005)

What do you feel most comfortable with? You said you have shot a Glock handgun, but do you have other firearms experience? This isn't to make fun of you, but to ask you seriously what kind of experience you have so that we can give you the right advice.

How much shooting do you think you will be doing? How many shots do you think you will need to fire per incident? How far do you figure you will be shooting at distance? Will you depend on this firearm for home defense or night time "bump in the night" events? Also, what kind of budget are you working with on this firearm purchase? Also, are you left or right handed?

What I would suggest will depend upon the answers to these questions.


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## Don Armstrong (May 8, 2002)

Go to the "Freedom! Self Reliance" forum, scan the posts and run searches. Setting aside the tinfoil hat element, that forum has defaulted to be the firearm expertise forum. There's a lot of well-meaning, well-experienced people there who are happy to help newcomers make decisions about firearms that make the newcomers happy. Me included, but many MANY people who are better-experienced than I am.

Lot of people on this thread have given you good advise though. Shotgun and .22 rimfire are all most non-hunting people will ever need. Learn the basics first - find a course you can take which will let you get hands-on experience, then make your purchase.

Shotgun is most versatile - just! 12 gauge if possible - best and cheapest ammo availability. Failing that (only if the recoil is too heavy for you to handle) then 20 gauge. .410 calibre shotgun (different terminology) is too light to be a general-purpose firearm, although it's a useful special-purpose light shotgun.

.22 rimfire is almost as versatile, and in a sense more useful because it has longer range and is so much cheaper to use. If your property is a simple rectangle 14 chains (1chain=22yards) by 10 chains then a .22 rimfire is almost within range of the lot - a little walking from the centre will make it possible. That's all you need for vermin control.

That's all you really need for vermin and predator control. However, you can get better coverage if you have a centre-fire rifle and a pistol. One possibility would be a .357 Magnum pistol and a .357 Magnum lever-action rifle - shared ammunition, possibly including lower-powered .38 Special. Not the power of the 30-30, although good enough. Note that whoever spoke about danger of shooting outside your boundaries was correct. Shotgun=safest. .22 rimfire is safer than other rifles, but the bullet can stilll travel just over one mile. Other centre-fire rifles might travel further. A .223 rifle would do just fine, but if the bullet travelled too far, very dangerous. 7.62x39mm is also a good answer, but can over-travel.`


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## Quint (Nov 12, 2004)

lol you get a zillion different answers when you ask this question. I'll add my two cents.

First get some training. A hunter's safety course or contact the NRA and they can direct you to a course or an instructor. 


As for guns I would get a nice little .22 rifle to start out with. Ruger makes the model 10/22 which is a dandy and inexpensive farm tool. 

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdResults?function=famid&famid=39

It comes with 10 round magazines but you can get aftermarket magazines that hold 50. Very handy for long plinking and target practice sessions. They come in all sorts of prices and configurations. If you're on a budget get the base model or if you want a little more durability get a stainless steel one with a synthetic stock. My last Ruger 10/22 was a stainless steel version which has a laminated stock. I think I paid a whole 119 bucks for it. Once you get comfortable with the .22 and want something heavier such as a shotgun I recommend the Mossberg model 590.

http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/Specpurp.htm

The #50665 is more or less the military model of the 590. It is a rugged weapon that I find superior to the Remington 870 (which is a great gun-I own 2 of them). The Mossberg has the safety mounted on the top of the receiver. I find this to be superior to the trigger guard mounted safety. They also have a different design which makes them easier to clear jamming than the Remington. I like to hunt with my 870 but for defensive use I reach for my 590. Not as smooth or elegant but more reliable and it will still put food on the table when necessary.

Once you've mastered those two weapons and feel the need for a handgun there is a simply huge selection. My advice there is to not buy cheap weapons. Stick with names like Sig-Sauer, Smith&Wesson, Glock, Colt, Heckler and Koch, Kimber, Para Ordnance etc. This is where you need to shoot as many examples from as many different calibers as possible to see what fits you. Buying a handgun is a very personal decision. It has to fit and feel right. Not only that but it must function flawlessly and be rugged enough to take the many rounds of practice ammo you will shoot through it to maintain proficiency with it. You might want to start out with a .22 handgun before you move up to a full caliber round. Smith and Wesson makes a dandy little auto .22. A .22 revolver is a good bet too. I find a .22 pistol is an indispensable tool at the homestead.

As for larger rifles it is hard to go wrong with a good bolt action rifle. A Remington 700 or Winchester model 70 or one of the new Savage rifles with their wonderful new triggers would be hard to beat. Of course every gun owner ought to own at least one lever action rifle for old time sake. Not overlooking autoloaders there are all sorts of choices. The ubiquitous sks is about as rugged and inexpensive as it gets and some of the examples have pretty decent accuracy. for a few dollars more you can get a AK which shoots the same round but it a better gun and a better buy. Makes a dandy deer rifle. I filled my doe tags last year with my AK. Remington makes their model 7400 autoloaders which when topped with a 3x9 scope is an outstanding venison procurement system. Also any of these autoloaders would be quite decent self defense weapons. So would the bolt actions for that matter.

Make sure any gun you get fits you and practice practice practie. Also don't be intimidated. Women should be just as welcome in a good gun store as a man. I would also add that some of the better shots I have ran across were female. My fiancee (deceased) could easily out shoot me on the trap range and was better than me with a .22 pistol. I should have known better than to go to the range with her when I found her detail stripping my rifle because it wasn't up to her cleanliness standards. Of course neither was my bathroom, my house, my truck, my car....


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

Get a Ruger mini 14 .223. It has many of the attributes of the .22; low recoil and relatively inexpensive to shoot and it also has the capability to reach out and touch someone or something at ranges beyond which the .22 is ineffective. And, if necessary, it can be made into a full-auto fire weapon.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

Wow!! Thank you all so much for your input! You all had such great advice, and after reading everything, I think this will probably be my best course of action. Tell me if you agree, or see a flaw in my plan:

1. Sign up for a gun safety course. I had planned on doing that anyway, but in a nebulous sort of "eventually, after I get my gun and get settled," kinda way. Now I think it would be wise to do that first.

2. Use the course as an opportunity to shoot as many different guns as possible. One of the most important things I gleaned from all the replies is that the gun has to fit me - not necessarily something I had given a true cognizant thought to. Figured you just bought one and used it - end of story.

3. Based on number two, decide if a hand gun or long gun would be more suited to my purposes and liking. I doubt that I will ever need to carry anything with me while I'm working around here, but that too is not something I had thought of - I had just assumed I would keep one "up at the house" and go get it if needed. But that may not always work - I may find myself wishing I had it when the house is not so close by! Maybe I could send the dog for it? LOL!!

4. Then I'll be ready to buy my gun(s?). I will, however, in my trying out of those, keep in mind the specific ones suggested here! Next I'll check around my area to see if there are any restrictions against firearms, and based on that, practice practice practice! I want to be a good shot, and not pose any danger to my neighbors, or myself, for that matter!!

Thanks again everyone for your valuable input and advice - I'll keep you posted on my progress!

Pam  <----- now has a definite course of action!


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## WindowOrMirror (Jan 10, 2005)

Great advice thus far... let me give you my two cents.

.22LR is useless for any kind of protection. You can kill a cat with it, but nothing larger.

Shotgun will be almost completely ineffective past 30 yards (arguments about chokes, shot size and such aside)

If you want to kill very small things (pests) or birds, the choices above are excellent... stop reading here. (listen to the Ruger 10/22 and Rem 870 folks)

If you want to "protect" you and yours from anything larger at a decent range and still have a reasonably sized weapon, you need a scout carbine. The 30-30 lever action was good advice. Most scout carbines will make a bear think twice, will easily take a deer (or two-legged varmit) and still can reasonably shoot 200 yds with open sights or a low power scope.

For farm protection I carry a self-built M44 with a 1.5 power scope. It's lighter than most guns (7 lbs), fires a large cartridge (7.62x54R), and is very easy to carry and manuever without providing elephant-gun kick.

R


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## cfabe (Feb 27, 2005)

Your plan is a good plan. However I'll point out that your choice should not be a handgun OR a long gun, it may be appropriate to have both. They serve different purposes. A handgun is a close range weapon, an average practiced shooter can be reasonably accurate to maybe 25 yards. Handguns are hard to shoot accurately. But, they are much, much easier to carry on your person, and I'm sure there are many here that would argue like I would that a gun "up at the house" is useless. A gun needs to be always ready at hand. 

Long guns are easier to shoot accurately at longer distances, and excepting a .22, are more powerful than any handgun you can reasonably handle. A 12-ga shotgun would be a fine overall choice for a homestead/farm gun. Versatile because of flexability in ammo, easy to operate, and recoil is tolerable with the right loads. But, don't let anyone tell you that you "don't have to aim" a shotgun, cause that's just plain not true. The pellets will spread out, but you still need to use the sights and aim, espicially if you are trying to stop an attack.


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## Snuffy Smith (Dec 9, 2002)

Well, a .22 is ok, but remember, that bullit will travel for about a mile. I'd go with a .410 shotgun for around the farm. That way you don't accidently shoot the neighbors, or hit any cars on the any of the Farmers Market roads that may be nearby. Hopefully you have lots of trees on your property.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

SteveD(TX) said:


> BTW - how's that 8N working out?


I pick it up this weekend..... I won't be worried about running into snakes if I'm sitting up on it - just running over them!! LOL!

Ooh - is it safe to carry a gun on a tractor? I wouldn't think so.

Hmmm......

Pam  <-------- is thinking scabbard on the fender? HA!!


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

lonewolf said:


> What do you feel most comfortable with? You said you have shot a Glock handgun, but do you have other firearms experience? This isn't to make fun of you, but to ask you seriously what kind of experience you have so that we can give you the right advice.
> 
> How much shooting do you think you will be doing? How many shots do you think you will need to fire per incident? How far do you figure you will be shooting at distance? Will you depend on this firearm for home defense or night time "bump in the night" events? Also, what kind of budget are you working with on this firearm purchase? Also, are you left or right handed?
> 
> What I would suggest will depend upon the answers to these questions.


Answers:
Very little to slightly more than none in the firearms experience realm.

Hopefully, very little shooting! I'm not out in the wilderness, I'm on paved roads, and this area has been settled and used for farming for quite a while. So I figure that the truly "wild" life has moved on to less developed areas. But I have deer!  Will not be shooting them, however...just love watching them come to the pond to drink at dusk. The dog doesn't chase them either - he's a very good boy.

Distance? I have no idea. My depth perception isn't all that great, and I don't trust my judgement at long distances, especially at night. So if I ever shot at anything, it probably would be closer rather than farther away.

At this time there is nothing that makes me think I would need the gun for home defense, but I would like it to be effective should the need arise. I'm not looking at getting one for that purpose specifically, though - mainly for livestock protection from four legged predators.

Budget is not an issue, although I don't want to spend thousands. I'll pay what it takes to get what I need.

And I am right handed.

Next?

Pam  <------ thinks the deer are cool!!


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## doc623 (Jun 7, 2004)

gilberte said:


> Get a Ruger mini 14 .223. It has many of the attributes of the .22; low recoil and relatively inexpensive to shoot and it also has the capability to reach out and touch someone or something at ranges beyond which the .22 is ineffective. And, if necessary, it can be made into a full-auto fire weapon.


You know the ATF frowns very much on converting a firearm to full-auto. Ususally requires screening and a $300.00/year license - if I remember correctly.
No use giving the feds another reason to keep their eye on you.


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## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

Pam, 

Look on this as a great adventure and rewarding experience. :sing: Because it will be, if you expect it to be so.

Get some exposure to guns and gun owners and you'll likely make some new friends. :goodjob: Enjoy the journey!

Good Luck and let us know how you fare.

Share the Love,

Diamondtim

p.s. Celebrate Diversity - Shoot lots of guns!


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## Don Armstrong (May 8, 2002)

2horses said:


> 1. Sign up for a gun safety course. I had planned on doing that anyway, but in a nebulous sort of "eventually, after I get my gun and get settled," kinda way. Now I think it would be wise to do that first.


Right. No question.



> 2. Use the course as an opportunity to shoot as many different guns as possible.


As much as possible. Also as source of information to point you towards opportunities to do so.


> One of the most important things I gleaned from all the replies is that the gun has to fit me - not necessarily something I had given a true cognizant thought to. Figured you just bought one and used it - end of story.


Good. Lot of people overlook this. It can make the difference between "just automatic" point'n'shoot "natural shot"; and painstaking "aim, correct, hold, breathe in, let out two thirds of it, check your aim, squeeze off the shot". I'm in the latter camp myself, and you've got to learn it, but you're starting from the ground up. If you can spend only 20% extra (or two weeks looking) to move yourself into the first category then it's the bargain of a lifetime.


> 3. Based on number two, decide if a hand gun or long gun would be more suited to my purposes and liking. I doubt that I will ever need to carry anything with me while I'm working around here, but that too is not something I had thought of - I had just assumed I would keep one "up at the house" and go get it if needed. But that may not always work - I may find myself wishing I had it when the house is not so close by! Maybe I could send the dog for it? LOL!!


Can't help you here. I'm not in a place where handguns are an easy option, and while it sticks in a lot of people's craws that is part of the reason why they're not necessary here. I'm also in a nation which doesn't need firearms on your hip for instant defense against predators. I think you're in a state where the same applies, unless we're talking human predators - your call. You're somewhere else, handguns are ubiquitous (including in the hands of bad people), your Constitution guarantees that, from where you're at that shouldn't change, and I'd sure think differently and own handguns (one or more) if I lived there.



> 4. Then I'll be ready to buy my gun(s?). I will, however, in my trying out of those, keep in mind the specific ones suggested here! Next I'll check around my area to see if there are any restrictions against firearms, and based on that, practice practice practice! I want to be a good shot, and not pose any danger to my neighbors, or myself, for that matter!!


VERY good point, and you're the first one who's mentioned it. There may well be laws - there are many places - which make it illegal to discharge a firearm within a certain distnce of a public road, or public land. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but it's always helpful to know if you're breaking the law.



Red Devil said:


> 22LR is useless for any kind of protection. You can kill a cat with it, but nothing larger.


Untrue.

You can kill anything up to and including an elephant with a .22 rimfire. However, it DOES take VERY careful shot placement (if you mean to do it) or medium bad luck (if it's your neighbour's 2-year-old daughter and she didn't need killing).

There've been a lot of feral dogs and coyotes killed with .22 rimfire. However, for sure there are more effective rounds. They aren't even ideal for feral cats.

The .223 is a great varmint round out to extreme distances (provided you make sure you know where it's going after it hits (or misses). It just isn't any sort of military round. It CAN kill people. It mostly DOES kill people - eventually. It just can't be counted on to kill an adversary who's hyped up on adrenaline before they're killed you back. And this is a standard military round. What were they THINKING of?

On that subject, any of the 3/10" (.3) military rounds are VERY useful killers out to extreme ranges. .308 (7.62x52mm NATO) is a recent military round. 30/06 is even just better. So is .303 British or 7.62x54 R (Russian). So is 8mm (nominally .32, but I think the same calibre as the .303 British (there is a difference between breadth overall, including into the rifling, and breadth of the barrel not including the rifling)). One of the best is 7.5mm Swiss because of the rifles they used. It used to be a rare round, but they're making it (ammo) commercially now, and the rifle is very easy to use 'scope sights on.

The 30-30 or the 7.62x39mm are good rounds, lower-powered than the military rounds mentioned above, each limited to or to be counted on up to about 200 yards/metres, for different reasons. Bigger, slower than the .223 - more likely to knock a target down, but less range. They'll kill much further than that if you're lucky/unlucky depending on what under which conditions.



Pam said:


> <----- now has a definite course of action!


Best way ta be


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## pcdreams (Sep 13, 2003)

TerryJ said:


> A over under it has a 22 on top & 410 on the bottom.


I use to have a savage .22/20 I really miss that gun. Don't know what ever became of it..


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## comfortablynumb (Nov 18, 2003)

ive found one doesnt fit the need of life.

you need different ones for different things.

on your rack you should have;
2 12 ga shotguns, one standard smoothbore with a relitivly long barrel for range, and one rifled slug barrel, because at realistic hunting ranges with open sights, you cant beat a 12 ga slug to kill about anything you aim at.
you need a 22, a rifle is good, but ive found most every time I need it, the 22 single six revolver is better by far. a little practice its good for 50 foot shots dead on and a lot easier to whack that occasiona sick animal.

if you hunt bigger game, you can choose any rifle that fits you, I am partial to old military surplus mausers, in 8mm. heavy yes but that weight gives you a steady aim and almost no recoil, and an 8mm round is a good cheap and very effective round. 

if you dont wanna fill a gun rack, find a nice russian SKS, they run about 250-300 bucks, the ammo is @ 100 bucks for a 1000 round case, they are light and easy to shoot with little recoil, easy to clean and indestructble. not to mention the 762x39 round will kill anything of you hit it enough times.... you have 10 shots in the mag, if you cant kill it with 1 to 5 you better run anway.
oh and they have a nifty batonette, which is esy to take off.

or, if single shot is enough, rossi makes a nifty combo set rifle, you can get it in any number of combinations, 22/410, 12ga/.223, 12 ga/3006, ect. you gat a shotgun barrel and a rifle barrel, they make them up to 308 win. which is a great rifle for big stuff like elk. rossi has a website http://www.rossiusa.com/products/products-matchedpairs.cfm for a budget, about 250$ will get you a nice set of calibres to suit your need.


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## tooltime (Nov 16, 2003)

The gun I use the most is the grease gun. I've got one of those battery-operated jobs, but I prefer the old hand pump gun with the flexible tube.


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## comfortablynumb (Nov 18, 2003)

thats pretty slick...


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## gilberte (Sep 25, 2004)

doc623 said:


> You know the ATF frowns very much on converting a firearm to full-auto. Ususally requires screening and a $300.00/year license - if I remember correctly.
> No use giving the feds another reason to keep their eye on you.


Yes this is true and I don't advocate that anyone convert a weapon without jumping through the requisite hoops


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## Blu3duk (Jun 2, 2002)

OH my could it be a firearm thread without blu3duk sticklin in his 2 sense [cents?] worth.

Common sense tells us that in civilized areas and populated areas there are no dangerous animals right.... ok beieve it or not but in some large populated areas big dangerous animals do thrive.... in '99 i was in Chico California and ran across a government game officer who had the opportunity to kill a cougar out of the one mile by 5 mile Bidwell park in the middle of town populated by about 50,000 folks give or take at any given time [the town not the park] Oficially he killed one cougar which had been seen and had been eating fifi and muffy and spiffy [dogs and cats of civilized folks] unofficially he killed 5 big full grown mountain lion out of that small park area and they had been there for more than a short while... never underestimate the predatory animal, if indiginous to your area of operations figger you will be seeing it one day [however in the case of a big cat more than likely you will only hear it].

Don is correct in saying that ESP is what terminates the target.... Exact Shot Placement. I personally believe in gun control, control the gun so that you maintain ESP it just cannot get simplier than that. My own predatory problems come from red fox during the night, owls during the twilight, and hawks during the day... the yodel dogs [coyotes] just dont seem to come around close to the house.... we did have a bear decide the hotwore fence wasnt a thing to play with a couple months ago.... and the deer... well the prey upon the garden and may just trip and fall into the freezer one of these next few days... archery season is upon us....

Fit is everything in a firearm, if it is to big for your hand the pistol you grab will always have a hard time hitting your tqrget and never fel just right when shootin.... i changed my wood grips on an old Smith and Wesson 357 to a hogue grip [now standard on their top end firearms] and found a marked improvment in handling even for my large hand. A shotgun needs to fit tight and right, and proper stance is important or a shotgun will knock a person down with the kick... lean into it. also important in a rifle is fit, and each style of rifle action has its charactoristics that make it more critical for some people. My old 30-30 has a tight barrel and it kicks hard, others dont, the straight stock on it makes it deliver its shock more agressive than that of some modernized pistol grip stocks would... machinery is fickle that way and firearms should be thought of as machines or tools no different than that of any other tools we use daily..... fit, function, durability.... cheap isnt always good.

quite a few ranchers/ farmers around use the 22-250 for varmiteering, and it also does really well on deer... and can be hand loaded to a variety of bullet weights and powder charges to imitate other 22 loads.... experience in reloading makes firearm ownership complete... loading to each firearms potential is a science.... balistics are an excellent form of education in mathmatics. It is also a form of therapy.

My dad likes a smaller pistol frame and favors the 32 magnum in a Ruger, and while nota common round in places it was widely used a few years back. Now with CASS and SASS the 357, 45 long colt and 44 rimfire are picking back up in wheel guns [revolvers]

Most firearm shops will let you handle a firearm, and although most will not let you shoot one, they all know someone who has one of those and might be inclined to introduce you to using it on a target before you decide to buy and not like..... 

sorry fer the long winded post.... I personally believe a person should have at least a dozen different flavors of firearms.... not counting Blackpowder rifles, pistols and cannons.

William


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## Jim-mi (May 15, 2002)

Sorry but red devil is way off base when saying the 22LR is usless for anything bigger than a cat. Not true. 
Any critter that keeps coming at you as your puting 22's into it just doesn't realize that "its" final countdown has started...

Ok, the countdown for big critters will be longer yes, but to say that it will not kill is not true.

NObody here will tell you to stand and pump 22's into a bear.........................lol


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## Paranoid (Oct 30, 2004)

Red Devil said:


> Great advice thus far... let me give you my two cents.
> 
> .22LR is useless for any kind of protection. You can kill a cat with it, but nothing larger.
> 
> ...


typical internet armchair warrior bs.

show me a person that'll stand downrange of my shotgun at 30 yards, or a .22lr at longer ranges. 

I'll show you the next recipient of the darwin awards.


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## CG (Sep 14, 2005)

Paranoid said:


> typical internet armchair warrior bs.
> 
> show me a person that'll stand downrange of my shotgun at 30 yards, or a .22lr at longer ranges.
> 
> I'll show you the next recipient of the darwin awards.


 :clap:


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## Bret (Oct 3, 2003)

I like your plan.

Know yourself.
Know your weapon.
Know your target.
Know what's beyond your target.

I have to agree with 22s. A great place to start. "A BB that hits the target is more effective than a cannon ball that misses."

Best wishes in whatever you decide.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

2 horses: Here's two sites for more information on guns. Most of what has been said here is true, but as you can see, there are opinions.

Gunbroker.com Great for buying and reselling if the gun doesn't suit you. I've bought and sold here. Better than buying a new gun and finding out it's just not right. Most sellers let you fire about 7 rounds, then ship it back if it doesn't suit you. I've found sellers here to be honest, and you can always ask them questons.This site also has great forums for more information.

Auction Arms.com In my opinion, Gunbroker is better, but it's always good to compare. I've sold handguns here.

When you buy through a site on-line, most states have you ship to a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL). You can pick it up at her/his shop. Cost is usually about $30.00 as the FFL has to send his/her license, before it can be shipped. Just paperwork for instant check.

When you take a course, your instructor will help you get something that fits. Yea, just like a great pair of jeans. It's gotta' be right. I found due to my age and neck/shoulder muscles, I have a hard time with long guns.

First guns should have cheap ammo!! You'll use enough of it to learn to shoot. then work your way up. Tractor up a great dirt pile to catch bullets, then go for it. If, in your state, you're far enough away from people.

Learn your state's gun laws, before you do anything!

Some of the newer handguns are being ported - so your arm doesn't flinch when you shoot. 

Never, never aim at a person unless you are willing to use your gun. Can you do that?


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## bgak47 (Sep 4, 2003)

I own a lot of guns & I've never been able to figure out which one is the best untill I have it in my hand.


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## Bootlegger0173 (Sep 15, 2005)

For a pistol, my favorite is my Ruger MKII .22. Killed just about everything with it, including squirrels. Rabbits are a breeze.

For a semi-automatic rifle, the 10-22 wins hands down. Almost no maintenence.

I'd recommend a single shot though. Teaches shot placement, and is darned near indestructable if used with a little maintenence and common sense.

A better choice in the long run though would be a Thompson Center .22 with another 20 ga. barrel and foreend. I have a .280 Encore and absolutely love it, but they don't make a rimfire barrel for it, so you'd have to get the Contender carbine version. Pricey though.

My favorite kick around, boat, camping, truck, pest, backpack, light hunting, trail gun is my New England Arms(H&R) single shot. The smallest version before you get to the youth models. I think it has a 22" barrel and short stock. I but a recoil pad on it, buttstock shell holder, and just for kicks, put a fiberoptic bead on the barrel. Wow! She is sweet, and is still short enough to turn around in the cab of my truck. Would make a great saddle gun, and only cost me $85.00 brand new at Walmart, BUT DON'T GET THIS ONE, because if you get the shotgun, you can't interchange rifle barrels for it, BUT, if you get the rifle version first(they call it the Handi-rifle, but this might not be the way they spell it) then you can get shotgun barrels all day long for about $40.00 or so. I'd recommend .22lr for the rifle, and 20 ga. for the shotgun. You can get them in either wood or composite furniture.


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## Paranoid (Oct 30, 2004)

yeah if ya'll wanna get into brands, i'd suggest a $90 chipmunk from walmart. It's made for kids, but this is one awesome, compact rifle. Single shot teaches you that in the real world you generally only get 1 anyway, so *make it count!!*

10/22 with a 50 round mag is fun and all, and i have a ss/syn proped up behind my door, but if you try to learn accuracy on a 20-50 round magazine you usually start using the law of averages once you send all that lead downrange.

Also this is a big deal for another reason, once you go thru those 5-10k rounds and consider yourself something other than a novice at shooting you may be considering a larger loading, maybe a 308. 308 is a beautiful, elegant round and offers everything from cheap surplus ammo to rounds that cost over a dollar each.

I dunno about anyone else but if my $1 round misses I'm gonna be irate.


Every *single shot* counts


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## WindowOrMirror (Jan 10, 2005)

...that I could have made my post much MUCH longer to account for people with full-choke shotguns with ghost ring sights, incredible amounts of training, etc. Or... perhaps those the can shoot a .22LR into a turkey's eye at 150 yds. Since those people are few and far between, I thought I'd give advice that almost anyone could use.

Pumping .22LRs into something in the hopes that it will become discouraged, bleed to death, or die from sheer boredom is not good advice for your part-time gun user. Much better advice is to use the right weapon for the job, and not to interject "hope" into the equation. If all you get is one shot, make sure that shot is placed well - indeed... but also make sure that the ONE hit you get imparts shock and awe, and makes a large wound channel.

The posters that state things along the lines of "what fits you" and "the gun you'll carry or use" are exactly right. Choose what works for you. Practicing with many different kinds in also great advice.

R

P.S. I'm a big boy, and the "armchair warrior" comment went right past. Remember that opinions vary, and that a person may not share everything in one short post. Go easy on folks. I am a certified gunsmith, handle weapons daily, and shoot almost everything under the sun with regularity.

My "Farm Gun"


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## Paranoid (Oct 30, 2004)

nice m-44, that is something no one touched on, deffinately a rival to the .22 in terms of cost of rifle and ammo.

however the kick, i'd never try to get someone to learn on something that kicked like a shotgun hehe.

i firmly believe in learning to shoot on a gun that does not kick. Do you blink your eyes when the trigger breaks? I didn't learn on a .22 and it took SO long to cure myself of that horrible habit.

I tought my brother to shoot on a .22 and then later my sister and neither of them learned to flinch in anticipation of the next round.

thats why for a first gun, even if it is a "general purpose farm gun" there really is only one choice. many choices may follow after but that first one is crucial. don't learn bad habits that take thousands of rounds to fix.

this is such a problem many people advise loading snap caps into magazines at random intervals and then mixing the mags up so that they can help overcome flinching.

just do it right from the beginning.



> P.S. I'm a big boy


That's a nice armchair in the picture.. big, but nice


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## donsgal (May 2, 2005)

No homestead should be without a good shotgun. If you are sleepy, or don't have your glasses on there is no aiming involved. Just point and shoot. Just be sure you know what you are shooting at! As an added bonus, in case you DON'T know what you are shooting at, a law enforcement fellow I used to know told me that it if you wanted to shoot a person, always use a shotgun because there is no bullet to trace. And I think he was only half joking when he said it!

Anyway, a .22 is good if you are a good shot or at close range. But I challenge ANYBODY on this board to hit a two foot long copperhead that is more than 6 feet away with one. Can't be done unless you are Annie Oakley.

donsgal


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## Paranoid (Oct 30, 2004)

donsgal said:


> Anyway, a .22 is good if you are a good shot or at close range. But I challenge ANYBODY on this board to hit a two foot long copperhead that is more than 6 feet away with one. Can't be done unless you are Annie Oakley.
> 
> donsgal


Stick with shotguns.. please!


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## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

Thanks for the Rossi info.Looks like a couple of those would meet just about any need at a very good price to boot.
What is the quality of the Rossi paired guns?
Do they hold up? Dependable? Does a laser sight tie up to the sight rails and what kind?
Links?

Thanks much,

BooBoo


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## Kenneth in NC (Nov 20, 2002)

*donsgal* Do you have any experience with firearms?

If you'd like drop by and bring as many 2' long Copperheads as you want. You can choose whether my wife, daughter or I do the shooting. Heheheheheh (O'boy sheewwww) If we can't hit a 2' copperhead at 6 feet then I'll buy you a steak dinner. BUT if we do You buy the Steak dinner. DEAL?????

To make it fair I'll shoot it with a 3" barrel S&W pistol, My wife will use her Ruger Mark I pistol and my daughter will use a Single Shot Cricket 22LR Rifle. :goodjob: 

Now if you bring enough targets I'd like to shoot that pesky 2' Copperhead at 25 yards (That's 75 feet for the uniniated) I'll use a little Ole Ruger 10/22. Or my dear wife will shoot it with the 10/22. 

Hope you and the targets visit soon. :sing: 


Kenneth in NC


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## ponyexpress (Feb 15, 2003)

Pam,
<is it safe to carry a gun on a tractor?>
Dh ALWAYS carries a gun, period. Our Long tractor has a kind of shelf indention similar to a dash, and we carry a holstered 22 pistol there. Not my good Ruger toy, just "the junk gun", which is what we call an ancient revolver we have. Shoots good. Works fine. But we wouldn't cry too much if it fell off the tractor and got lost.
You'd be amazed how many snakes you see when you're on a tractor. And one of my friends accidently bushhogged their cat when he decided that it would be safer to hide in the tall grass than to run. Didn't finish him off, but my friend had to make one of those sad "run to the house for the gun trips."
You'd probably want to lock up critters when you're doing tractor work.
Anne


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## bgak47 (Sep 4, 2003)

Yeah! :lonergr:


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## diamondtim (Jun 10, 2005)

Red Devil,

I loved how you used the term "Shock and Awe" and then displayed your M44.

The M44 does definitely provide "Shock and Awe", especially when it is loaded with Russian surplus ammo. The one foot by two foot fireball exiting the barrel would make any intruder "void his bowels".  

Share the Love,

Diamondtim

"I hate communism - but I love their guns"


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## comfortablynumb (Nov 18, 2003)

the rossi matched pairs rifle barrels are drilled and tapped for a scope rail, the shotgun barrels are not (the one I have aint). the problem with the scope is the hammer, if the rings dont raise the scope high enough the hammer gets in the way.

I bought a youth size 22/410, for backpacking and travel, it breaks down real small, and since I aint very big, the small factor doesnt bug me. I kinda like it. I have a rail on the 22 for a large scope, and a small lazer sight I got cheap for close plinking of rats and such... for 23 bucks, a cheapo laser sight is the best toy you can buy. put the dot on the rat and pop. 
I havent had a problem with the rossi. 

oooo now a m44 might knock her on her butt.... it did me. too much kick for me thanks. indestructable rifle if you want a toughie.

see you people ruined my day. I went out to pick up some lumber and came home with 2 pistolas.... a 357 blackhawk (MINT... unbelievably cheap) and a near new ruger GP100. wow is that a nice shooter, even with a 357 round its kick is not much worse than a 38sp. 

now I am broke.. I might have to sell the balckhawk, but I had to pick it up it was just to cheap.

I almost spent the lumber cash too... I need to stop window shopping.


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## tinda (Jun 11, 2005)

TerryJ said:


> A over under it has a 22 on top & 410 on the bottom.



that is what I have. It gets the job done. In this neck of the woods we do not have snakes, etc, but there is a share of black bears, grizzlies and cougars. For them, I have a 30.06

tinda


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## Bootlegger0173 (Sep 15, 2005)

Nice pic. Absolutely go with what suits your needs best. Your level of experience will play a large part in your effectiveness, either on human or animal targets. Also, your level of confidence will vary depending on your experience. What I can do with my .22 pistol, some cannot do with a centerfire rifle, and what I can do with my pistol, doesn't even come close to what my Dad can do with his, etc. Most shooting ranges also will let you shoot a variety of firearms for relatively cheap, and even coach you on their disassembly if they think that you might be interested in buying something and are not sure what you want. It is in their best interest and they will be willing to help. I have a 67/8" Ruger MKII that I can freehanded shoot .22 shell casings with until I get tired of showing off, but then again I just bought a 51/2" model and sighted in from my bench, but due to an initial sight problem, I just don't have confidence with the weapon, and though I'm sure that the gun will hit exactly where I point it from a bench, I do not trust it to kill things effectively freehand, and I do not trust myself to do so with it, yet. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, AND THEN PRACTICE SOME MORE. And have fun doing it!

Bootlegger. :cowboy:


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## WindowOrMirror (Jan 10, 2005)

Armchair... I ain't THAT big! 

And no, I don't blink. Sniper training kind of removes that from you (if you continue to practice and don't always have a spotter). I don't blink with my .338 Lapua, .300 Win Mag, or .308's either... but I'll grant that this is tough to learn.

.22LR cannot be beat for a "first gun"... and an over/under really can't be beat for an all around gun. Me, I carry a handgun at all times when on my land, and I carry the scout rifle when we've seen bear, etc.

As far as the kick on the M44 in the pic, yeah... it's pretty severe. You don't shoot that gun 50 times in practice at one sitting. The cut down barrel and lighter stock make the kick worse, but the forward mounted scope helps with the recoil a bit.

R


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

I'd think VERY seriously about why you want gun(s) and for what reasons.

I've lived here with 22+ acres for almost 5 years and never had to use one. 

_I'd ask all posters how often and for what reason did they use a gun._

The rattlers by my back door and the 5 foot snake that dropped off my roof (yes, roof) were killed by shovels. (Drive the end into it and grind away) The tarantulas I let walk away. My dogs dispatch everything from rabbits to elk around the house or wherever I am at. No bear here, just cougar screams at night. Never seen one, think I'd let it live though. Coyoties (sp?) - see & hear them a lot, but I've done everything to keep my chickens safe. 

I guess I live & let live and take preventive measures.

The only time a gun has been used except to practice on my property is when DH used it on me and my truck! I couldn't get to one and YES, I'd have used it - not to kill, but to injure. He's in jail now, on $125,000.00 bail.

_If you have one for 2 legged protection, would you use it?? Would you practice until you can injure, not kill? The law says there's a big difference between killing, (even in self defense) and maiming._ Are you willing to always carry so the same situation doesn't happen to you? And I do mean carry - not leave it in the truck while you're feeding your horses?

In this area, most things happen when the owner is not home. Have you ever walked into a neighbors house that's just been robbed, all guns taken; seen the closet floor littered with broken boxes of bullets with all the bullets gone that matched the guns?? Have you ever watched the explosions from boxes of ammo from a house that's just been torched?? Makes one wonder if these houses would have been robbed if there hadn't been guns around.

Just a few thoughts from one grumpy ol' lady that has a FFL (Federal Firearms License)


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## skruzich (Jul 23, 2003)

Wolf mom said:


> The only time a gun has been used except to practice on my property is when DH used it on me and my truck! I couldn't get to one and YES, I'd have used it - not to kill, but to injure. He's in jail now, on $125,000.00 bail.


Good reason to own a gun!



> *If you have one for 2 legged protection, would you use it?? *
> You bet. In a new york second.
> 
> 
> ...


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## skruzich (Jul 23, 2003)

donsgal said:


> Anyway, a .22 is good if you are a good shot or at close range. But I challenge ANYBODY on this board to hit a two foot long copperhead that is more than 6 feet away with one. Can't be done unless you are Annie Oakley.
> 
> donsgal


Sure you bring the copperheads. what distance do you want me to shoot them at.


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## moonwolf (Sep 20, 2004)

Someone asking what rural folk in this area might want to own and use a firearm for besides hunting?

Let's see. I've used a .22 for shooting pesky squirrels with my terriers because the squirrels try their best to get at the poultry feed and chew on the house to try and get in the eaves.
A coyote once I had to dispatch as it was getting too friendly with my dogs and just wasn't welcome for that purpose. I used a 30/30 at 100 yds. for that. A fox with severe mange was shot with a .22 in the hen house during the winter once. 
Other vermin shot were skunks (maybe about half a dozen since living here about 10 years), mink that were killing chickens (about 4 total) with .22 and or 12 guage shotgun. Bears in the vicinity never had to shoot, but a handy rifle isn't a bad idea in case they get more daring or beligerent than normal to protect personal life and limb. A woodchuck with .22 that was terrorizing the garden (though frankly, a whack in the head with a board also can dispense with the woodchuck as they move slow), porcupine that the dog could have got 'bothered' with if too close to the house.
That's about it.
Things that live in the woods are fine there where they belong. 
A firearm on the farmstead is nothing more than a necessary tool sometimes.


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## roadrash (May 6, 2005)

I have fired a weapon in anger!I am always armed when walking my property regardless of the task at hand.A recent post confirms my theory I have held for a long time after hanging out in many local gunshops.Knowledge of firearms or firearms laws is not necessary to get a FFL!If I were 2 Horses ,I would get a CCW,Then I would buy myself a small frame revolver probably a .38 special,and I would carry it everywhere I went.

This is my rifle,this is my gun,this is for killin,this is for fun! :rock:


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## milkstoolcowboy (Sep 13, 2003)

See, comin' here makes me realize how fortunate I am. I haven't fired a shot in anger in over 50 years, and that wasn't on US soil.

I can't see doing all my daily chores, from milking to cleaning out hog pens to checking feeders to climbing silos with a sidearm. I can see the growing hogs getting even a covered holster open and helping themselves to a gun.

I keep a .410 and a .22 in my tool shed for when I need to shoot a varmint up by the buildings. These are both old guns I've had since a teenager. I have a 12 gauge a .30-.30, a .308 and a .220 Swift, but those are guns that are kept locked up in the house.


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## Ed Norman (Jun 8, 2002)

I got some great advice years ago that I have always remembered. When the bad guy shows up, of course you shoot him and kill him, if needed. But you never admit you wanted to kill him, you say you wanted to make him stop. If you say you wanted to kill him, his family goes after you for manslaughter or premeditated murder or something. You just wanted him to stop. You don't know how he ended up with two in the hat and one in the chest, you just closed your eyes and fired, hoping he would stop. 

Also, if you only shot him to wound him, and you admit that, they will say the threat must not have been very great and you shouldn't have shot at all. 

One more thing, I use factory ammo in my carry guns and house guns. I reload everything else, but if reloads are used in self defense, the lawyers have fun painting you as some psycho who brews up special man killer bullets in his basement.


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## plowhand (Aug 14, 2005)

There is nothing like a shotgun for home defense. One can puchase a new single shot for around $100, and that includes 12,20, and 410 gauges. Years ago I bought a small 410 known as a "Snake Charmer". It isn't very long,has a pistol grip,a small stock, and storage space for four shells in the but of the stock. If I couldn't have but one, well I've a double-barreled twenty that shoots mighty fine. If you can handle a twenty,go with one. Start with a single barrel,they are fairly dependable. They don't jam too often. The type load in your shotshells makes the world of a difference. You should keep 8's and 6's for snakes and small varmits. An animal the size of a fox needs a size four shot or larger. I'd think you'd want at least a number three buckshot for any thing the size of a coyote and above. I've shot odd,possibly rabid,raccoons with a 410 and it done the job. I used a 3" shell with no.4 shot. A gun is like any other tool, you need one that you can useand be comfortable using. It takes a pretty good shot to put a .22 in a copperhead with a pistol. If you can, you can. If you have a good sharp hoe,not one of these chinese tack-welded deals, you can kill a snake with it. Unless you can handle that hoe fast,and with accuracy don't tackle a coiled up snake unless you have too.


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## Kenneth in NC (Nov 20, 2002)

plowhand I have been shooting since I was 5. My dad emphasized hitting the target early on. If I wanted any extra ammo I had to hit 4 out of 5 bulls eyes at 50 feet with rifle and later on 4/5 at 25 feet with pistol. I may be much older now but at 6 feet as the challange was made. Well I hit 22 casings at that distance. We often use bottle caps at 15 feet "just for fun". Must be a country boy thing. :lonergr:


Kenneth in NC


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## donsgal (May 2, 2005)

Kenneth in NC said:


> *donsgal* Do you have any experience with firearms?
> 
> If you'd like drop by and bring as many 2' long Copperheads as you want. You can choose whether my wife, daughter or I do the shooting. Heheheheheh (O'boy sheewwww) If we can't hit a 2' copperhead at 6 feet then I'll buy you a steak dinner. BUT if we do You buy the Steak dinner. DEAL?????
> 
> ...


Well, Kenneth, I take your word for it and I am mighty impressed with your skill. Here in the Ozarks you can't hardly even SEE a copperhead in the yard at 6 feet owing to the tall grass. A friend of mine and co-worker once nearly stepped right on one while she was hanging up the clothes because she couldn't see it. If she hadn't dropped a clothes pin and bent over to retrieve it she would have stepped on it for sure. The idea that you CAN hit such a nasty bugger at with a small caliber gun is really awesome.

If I could see it clearly *and* if neither I nor it was moving *and* if I had plenty of time to aim, and conditions were near' perfect, *MAYBE* *JUST MAYBE* I might get a lucky shot with a .22 and I have always fancied myself a darn good shot, having plinked with a rifle since I was seven or eight years old. But to even attempt such a feat with a hand gun would be right out of my league for sure. I doff my cap to you, sir, in admiration!

How did you get so good anyway? Yeah, I know....practice.....

donsgal


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## Quint (Nov 12, 2004)

What I've used a gun for around the homestead?

Stray dogs and cats as a general pest and coyotes, foxes, possums, raccoons going after my chickens and such.

Rabbits, squirrels, groundhogs going after my garden. Starlings, sparrows, pigeons for infesting my buildings and starlings in particular I would love to see wiped off the American continent. Dang those NYC idiots in central park anyway. What were they thinking? Anyway, I shoot rats on sight and shoot mice in the woodpile for target practice although I know I'm not making a dent in the mouse population. I usually will let snakes be unless they are a threat of some sort. I've had to kill a few though.

I usually have either an M-4 clone or a AK clone in the truck and on the ATV. I carry a 45 caliber Glock or a Sig Sauer on a daily basis as my carry gun.


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Pam;

You are in central Texas, not Baghdad. You do not need a cannon. 

I live in a fairly out-of-the-way place; varmints are going to be the same as yours--****, possum, skunk, the occasional bobcat, coyotes, now and then a crow, owl or hawk plus a variety of snakes. 

The .22 rifle will handle any of this--don't think you are going to have to use it every day or to defend yourself. 

A small guage shotgun would also be nice--I keep a .22/.410 over/under in the barn for quick use and another .410 in the garage where it is handy. The heavy stuff I keep closer to my bed. Remember that working a bolt gives the same information to a trespasser as working the slide on a pump. 

Don't think your first gun has to be pricey. Go down to the pawn shops and see what is available--guns are their big items but remember that they will ask new prices. If you are not good at haggling buy retail, and before you make an offer go find out what the item costs new. 

All in all I agree with the idea that a .22 should be your starting point. If you think you have to have a self defense weapon start with the shotgun. They are about the ultimate in both intimidation factor and effectiveness. 
Ox


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## comfortablynumb (Nov 18, 2003)

i forgot about pawn shops...

good idea!


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## Don Armstrong (May 8, 2002)

In re-reading this, I noticed one safety point that hasn't been raised but is well worth it. You have a fair area of water. DON'T EVER shoot bullets towards water. It acts pretty well like a metal plate. Also remember skimming pebbles off water? You can AND WILL get a ricochet off that water that could have the bullet an unpredictable distance - maybe miles - off in a not-entirely-defined direction. THIS IS IMPORTANT!


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## roadrash (May 6, 2005)

A single women liveing in the stix(or the city for that matter)Should have a defensive handgun in a serious caliber! Rimfires are OK for plinking and dispatching small game,But will it be accessible when TSHTF,not if its up in the barn or in the bedroom closet.I think there are quite a few people in texas that are just as dangerous as the most determined insurgent!


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## Imaexpat2 (Jan 4, 2005)

Lots of opinions many which I kinda agree with.

It would be hard to not have a 0/U in 22 rimfire/20 ga. I supose I could get by with a 22/410 O/U. But such a gun is great for keeping the farm well protected from pest and address things that go bump in the night.

Lot to be said though for getting a CCW permit and getting an approprate pistol/revolver and keeping it within easy arms reach 24/7.

How often have I used my fire arms on the homestead...quiet a bit actually. Dispatched a number of feral Dogs/Cats, numerous Yoddle Dawgs, foxes, skunks and racoons. In addition to dispatching pest around the homestead dont discount the posibility of two legged pest either. While you might not be in the big city where this type of pest is a continuous problem they can occasionally be found in rual areas too, and Local Law Enforcemnt usually has some miles to cover before they can show up.

Just somethings to think about while you decide what best suits your needs...


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## Kenneth in NC (Nov 20, 2002)

donsgal about 40 years of practice. As a child I hunted for food, as a young adult I hunted because I got to spend time with dad. As a adult it became a hobby. As a father I get to pass on the family tradition. My wife's father taught her to shoot when she was 6. She's been shooting ever since. 

Hope you pick a firearm that does the job and gives you the "fun factor" as well.

Kenneth in NC


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## commomsense (Sep 5, 2005)

My vote would be a .20 gauge or .12 with pratice. Mossberg and Remmington both make good ones. If you are concerned about length and weight have it cut dow by a good gun smith to fit you. Then get a varity of shot and load it accordingly. Bird shot for birds and snakes and buck shot for bigger 4 legged and 2 legged critters.


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## skruzich (Jul 23, 2003)

Kenneth in NC said:


> plowhand I have been shooting since I was 5. My dad emphasized hitting the target early on. If I wanted any extra ammo I had to hit 4 out of 5 bulls eyes at 50 feet with rifle and later on 4/5 at 25 feet with pistol. I may be much older now but at 6 feet as the challange was made. Well I hit 22 casings at that distance. We often use bottle caps at 15 feet "just for fun". Must be a country boy thing. :lonergr:
> 
> 
> Kenneth in NC


That or lighting stick matches  hehe.


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## skruzich (Jul 23, 2003)

donsgal said:


> If I could see it clearly *and* if neither I nor it was moving *and* if I had plenty of time to aim, and conditions were near' perfect, *MAYBE* *JUST MAYBE* I might get a lucky shot with a .22nd I have always fancied myself a darn good shot, having plinked with a rifle since I was seven or eight years old. But to even attempt such a feat with a hand gun would be right out of my league for sure. I doff my cap to you, sir, in admiration!
> 
> How did you get so good anyway? Yeah, I know....practice.....
> 
> donsgal


Handgun and a rifle are two different things! Just because one is good with a rifle, doesn't mean they are good with a handgun! 
As in the case of you getting good with a rifle, you have to practice, practice and the practice some more with a handgun to get good at using one!
You should be able to pull one and fire without aiming and hit your target. Its a trick that you point where you look at. If you do a line from your finger to what you are pointing at it should match a line drawn from your eye to what you are looking at!


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## bgak47 (Sep 4, 2003)

I've been shooting handguns, rifles & shotguns for 50 yrs, & I would reccomend a hunter safety course or a beginer shooter's course of some kind before you even try to decide what kind of firearm that you might need or want.


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## Kenneth in NC (Nov 20, 2002)

bgak47 that was I believe a part of her plan.



Kenneth in NC


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

Kenneth in NC said:


> bgak47 that was I believe a part of her plan.
> 
> 
> 
> Kenneth in NC


Yep!

And the post about living in Central Texas and not Bahgdad cracked me up - thanks again to everyone for their very informative discussion!

On an upnote, I had an old car ('62 Bel Air) that came with the property removed yesterday, and to my surprise nothing but red wasps were living in it! Last tag was in 1984, and I figure it hadn't moved from that spot since then.... 

Pam  <------- is sticking with her plan, but doesn't seem to be being run over with varmits...


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## scott (May 11, 2002)

eeeek .... i would have given you a gun for a 62 bel air !!!!


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## highlands (Jul 18, 2004)

44 caliber Canine - guardian obedience dog. Seriously. I read and hear about people spending a lot of time and money trying to keep down the coyote and other predator populations. Our dogs kill and eat coyotes and any other pests they can catch. Even the bear and mountain lion stay out of their way.

The dogs work 24/7 and love their job. I don't cotton to sit out in the rain matching wits and senses in the dark with Wiley Coyote. I'm a dead shot with a rifle but I won't even notice him, even if I managed to stay awake. I would much rather be in bed at night with my wife and let the dogs do their job - which they do with a vengeance.


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## BlueRidge (Aug 23, 2005)

The best advice you've gotten here is to get training first. The worst advice you've gotten is to buy a shotgun. As someone said, that's a great way to learn to flinch.

May I suggest you ask some more knowledgeable people? Especially pay heed to the moderators. They are The Real Deal, not a bunch of *GSCs. 








_*Gun Store Commandos_


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

scott said:


> eeeek .... i would have given you a gun for a 62 bel air !!!!


LOL!! Not this one! It wasn't very pretty, I assure you. I think the guy that bought it is sending it to salvage. I'm just glad it's gone!

Pam  <---- ridding the property of eyesores...


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## BlueRidge (Aug 23, 2005)

plowhand said:


> It's pretty well know that if you want a firearm for home defense ; weel, not too many idiots are willing to look down the bore of a shotgun and not think twice before the do something stupid. They know, as well as anyone else, they stand a much better chance of being hit with a shotgun than they do with a pistol. There are alot of people that can accurately shoot with a rifle or a pistol. There are alot that can't. It's hard to miss a barn wall with a shotgun, if you aren't to far away.


The idea that anybody can hit with a shotgun is Hollywood myth. The reality is, at distances inside a house, a shot pattern won't spread more than a couple of inches. IOW, you have to aim well to hit anything. Outside, it's not much good past about 20 yards, and that only in the hands of an expert. Again, aiming well is required. It's a very effective weapon if the shooter does his (or her) part, but using one well requires much more training & practice than using a .22 well. To depend on a shotgun as a substitute for training & practice is folly.


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## bryon huff (Sep 30, 2005)

get a stick cost free


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## rickd203 (Sep 11, 2005)

I ordered my farm gun and as soon as the paperwork clears, I will be taking it to the range for some target practice. I went with an old classic, Winchester Trapper model 94, .44 mag. lever action. The reviews on the firearm web sites are very good and it has been a popular choice on farms and ranches for over 100 years. It only weighs 6 lbs. and is about 34" total length. I can put it on a sling and carry it around all day. With shot shells, I have the same effective firepower as a .410 shotgun. I will keep a combination of bullets and shot shells in the magazine so that it can handle almost any task.


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## HunterTed (Mar 21, 2005)

Arborethic said:


> (BTW, the average shot on a deer in Texas is a mere 45 yards.)


 I was just wondering where you got that figure? Most of the deer I kill in Texas are between 150 and 200 yards, unless you count the ones I kill with my bow.


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## Arborethic (Oct 16, 2005)

HunterTed said:


> I was just wondering where you got that figure? Most of the deer I kill in Texas are between 150 and 200 yards, unless you count the ones I kill with my bow.


I was quoting a TP&W (Texas Parks and Wildlife) study done some 20 years ago. I might reasonably assume that marksmanship has gone DOWN since then. LOL... If you think about it, few hunters take on 100 yard shots. They are sitting in a blind with an 'attractant' crop or feeder sitting within spitting distance. No one, except us old hardcore hunters actually walk/stalk anymore. Of course if you and I listen to the averag city boy talking about hitting his deer at 400 yards with his .30-30, well...we know that fish and shooting distances tend to grow. LOL...

BTW, I bowhunted for many years. My first bow was a lemonwood longbow, barely adequate for deer or coyotes. But I practiced a LOT...sometimes hours each day after school and work. Later I moved up to a Bear 65# recurve. My best shot was at 70 yards...struck a doe that turned just as I released. The broadhead struck her on the rump and seemed to bounce right off! I was initially bitterly disappointed. I figured I would be tracking her for hours. But I sat tight and waited a full hour, then went out into the pasture where I had hit her. To my surprise, I found a blood spray and a blood trail. She didn't go more than 50 yards before she lay down and bled out.

I never did get used to the cam bows. I bought one for my brother-in-law, due to my whole sale access, and taught him the basics. I was able to put one shaft into a 1" target at 25 yards on my first shot. With my worn out shoulders, that was the LAST bow I've ever drawn. I figured that I might as well quit while I was ahead. That shot impressed the heck out of him, though! LOL...

When I was a kid, that old lemonwood longbow was a real meat getter. I brought home a lot of rabbits and squirrels with it. I even made some specialized arrows. Squirrel hunting always irked me, because often an arrow would wind up stuck in a tree trunk or limb, far overhead. An uncle showed me how to crimp a 30-30 or 30-06 round over the tip of a cheap field point shaft. The blunt tip never got stuck, but it would knock a squirrel down quite handily. I also cross drilled the base of the same brass case and looped old guitar strings through it to create a clover leaf arrow head for birds. I took a number of quail, dove, and 'close-in' ducks with that arrangement.

I do still enjoy shooting long distances. It is hard to find anyone that shoots rifles at more than 100 yards these days. So I tend to play a game with my pistolero buddies. We start out at about 20 yards, shoot a round, then move back 10 yards. We shoot at 6" hanging steel plates. Generally, everyone throws $10 into the hat for this 'event'. If you miss your shot, you are eliminated and out of the money. Now I fancy myself a far better than average pistol shot. With my Government Model Ruger MKII .22, I can bang those 6" plates with 90-100% accuracy at fifty yards. I'm real close to that with my Ruger .44 magnum. But, even with that ability, I seldom collect the money. One of my buddies embarassed me badly one Saturday afternoon. We had moved out to well past 100 yards. I was shooting my Ruger MK II, he was shooting a dinky 2" barrel S&W .32. He and I were the last two remaining shooters, as we paced it off to 100 yards. I took my shot and missed. He took forever to line up the sights on that little wheelgun, then struck dead center! Just to show us how effective a snubnose can be, he backed up to 200 yards and took a couple of shots at an empty Gatorade bottle. He did miss his first shot, but not by much. The second shot shattered the glass jar. He earned several free beers as we shut the range down!


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## Arborethic (Oct 16, 2005)

rickd203 said:


> I ordered my farm gun and as soon as the paperwork clears, I will be taking it to the range for some target practice. I went with an old classic, Winchester Trapper model 94, .44 mag. lever action. The reviews on the firearm web sites are very good and it has been a popular choice on farms and ranches for over 100 years. It only weighs 6 lbs. and is about 34" total length. I can put it on a sling and carry it around all day. With shot shells, I have the same effective firepower as a .410 shotgun. I will keep a combination of bullets and shot shells in the magazine so that it can handle almost any task.


Rick, I don't want to burst your bubble, but the commercial .44 Special shot shells won't have nearly the performance of a .410 out of a rifled barrel. The shot capsule is going to be spun down the rifled barrel. That rotational torque, as the Speer capsule exits the barrel and disintegrates, will result in an extremely wide pattern at very short distances.

I might also point out that the .44 Magnum has only been around for about fifty years, not 100. The most popular chambering in the Winchester 94 has been the .30-30, which is significantly more powerful than the .44 Magnum, and has been around for about 100 years. The .30-30 bullet, with its longer length and lower frontal area, is much more stable than the rather short, 'fat', .44 magnum bullet. Of course you can handload the .44 Magnum to velocities that might not be appropriate for handguns, though you want to stay well within the current limitations provided by powder and bullet manufacturers. You also MUST avoid, at all costs, using POINTED bullets in a tubular magazine! The recoil a tubular magazine firearm produces can cause a pointed bullet to strike the primer of the round before it with enough force to cause it to ignite.

But, as you say you are going to pattern the gun at the gun range, I would respectfully suggest that you start your patterns for the shotshells at no more than 25 yards. Then work out to determine your maximum effective pattern. When you hit less than 50% of your shot on a 30% paper, you've reached maximum effective range for the #9 shot ammo.

However, you can also load up to #7 1/2 shot in the Speer capsules. I've found this to produce better patterns at greater distances. You can also opt to load 3 .32 caliber lead balls in the Speer capsule, which gives you 3 holes in the X-ring at about 25 yards.

If you try handloading, PLEASE restrict your upper loads to the maximum suggested by the powder and/or bullet manufacturer. A Winchester, while a beautiful rifle, cannot handle the chamber pressures of a Marlin, Ruger revolver, Thompson Contender, or a bolt action.

I hope this information helps you get the most fun and effectiveness out of your new rifle! Those 94's are BEAUTIFUL rifles, and can last for many generations if properly loaded and maintained.


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## Arborethic (Oct 16, 2005)

Kenneth in NC said:


> plowhand I have been shooting since I was 5. My dad emphasized hitting the target early on. If I wanted any extra ammo I had to hit 4 out of 5 bulls eyes at 50 feet with rifle and later on 4/5 at 25 feet with pistol. I may be much older now but at 6 feet as the challange was made. Well I hit 22 casings at that distance. We often use bottle caps at 15 feet "just for fun". Must be a country boy thing. :lonergr:
> 
> 
> Kenneth in NC


Yep, it IS a 'country boy thang'. I remember 'hammering' nails with my little Remington single shot .22. If you hit the nail just slightly off center, you bent the nail over to the side. It was a matter of pride to be able to hammer a framing nail full depth into a board.

When I was a kid, there was a trick shooter that came around giving a demonstration with a pump .22. He would turn his rifle to the port arms position and pump the action to send the empty casing flying out in front of him, then snap the barrel around and SHOOT the empty casing out of the sky! I always wanted a pump .22 so I could practice that trick, but never could afford it at that age. Later, as an adult, I went to semiautos, which made the trick impossible.


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## 2horses (Jul 19, 2004)

Well, I've not purchased a gun yet, but a huge thanks to everyone who has weighed in on this question. The perimeter fence has been up for a couple of weeks now, and this weekend I let two new geese loose in the pond. To my delight nothing has eaten and/or carried them off yet (they are not particularly tame and won't let me re-catch 'em to put them up at night), so I'm hoping my anticipated predator problems won't actually develop? I've only seen two snakes thus far, one was a tiny grass snake and the other a bull snake (or rat snake - not sure which but it was one of those good kind you let be), and I've not seen any around the pond, although I'm being really careful while I'm clearing the weeds out from around it. Should I encounter one, I think that at this point I'd be more inclined to simply mind my own business as long as it minded it's own. Otherwise I have a long handled pair of loppers with me - I can always use that to dispatch one if I have to.

I'm sure I'll get one eventually - sounds like I should meet up with some of the posters here and go shopping!!

Thanks again for everyone's input and suggestions...

Pam  <------ proud owner of the newly christened 2Horse Ranch!


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## HunterTed (Mar 21, 2005)

Arborethic said:


> I was quoting a TP&W (Texas Parks and Wildlife) study done some 20 years ago. I might reasonably assume that marksmanship has gone DOWN since then. LOL... If you think about it, few hunters take on 100 yard shots. They are sitting in a blind with an 'attractant' crop or feeder sitting within spitting distance. No one, except us old hardcore hunters actually walk/stalk anymore. Of course if you and I listen to the averag city boy talking about hitting his deer at 400 yards with his .30-30, well...we know that fish and shooting distances tend to grow. LOL...


Hmm, I guess all those close shots in the East Texas Piney woods must lower the distance considerably. I have never seen a deer under 100 yards where I rifle hunt. The buck I shot last year was at 160 yards. My feeder is 157 yards from my tower blind and my dad's feeder is 167 yards from his tower blind. But theese distances are relatively short for the rifles that we shoot. I use either a 300 win mag or a 338 win mag and dad shoots a 30/06. I don't bowhunt over a feeder, I hunt 3 trails, at 10, 17, and 30 yards. Don't really see a need for a feeder there since 95%of all the deer I see walks down one of theese trails.


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## lovescanines (Jul 11, 2003)

Arborethic said:


> Pam, I've been shooting for fifty years. I hold a Federal Firearms License (gun dealer). I also have a Concealed Carry License. And I've been a firearms instructor for many, many years. I also qualified with a variety of rifles, pistols, shotguns and machine guns in the military. I've also been a life long hunter and been involved in wildlife management for many years.
> 
> So let me deal with a few misconceptions and myths I've seen here:


That was a superb post, arborethic! Good advice.

I got a lot out of reading it. It's so nice to have an *expert* explain stuff to you when you need it.


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## bgak47 (Sep 4, 2003)

Pam... after having read all of this, do you still want a firearm? :goodjob: If you do,take the safety course & make your choice based on what you learn from it.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

I dunno if you can still get them new, but I used to have a little remington 22 410 over an under, its a good all purpose piece, light and easy to load. only issue I had with it was one round per barrel. but if you learn to shoot straight one is all it usually takes. =)


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## longrider (Jun 16, 2005)

yep, try the Springfield Armory website. i think they call it the M7.


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## rickd203 (Sep 11, 2005)

Arborethic said:


> I might also point out that the .44 Magnum has only been around for about fifty years, not 100. The most popular chambering in the Winchester 94 has been the .30-30, which is significantly more powerful than the .44 Magnum, and has been around for about 100 years.


I was only referring to the lever action model, not the caliber.



Arborethic said:


> But, as you say you are going to pattern the gun at the gun range, I would respectfully suggest that you start your patterns for the shotshells at no more than 25 yards. Then work out to determine your maximum effective pattern. When you hit less than 50% of your shot on a 30% paper, you've reached maximum effective range for the #9 shot ammo.



Actually, I was planning on using the shot shell at ranges less than 20 yards. It would be used if I was surprised by something like a snake or racoon at clise range. Even the slugs I would want to get within 100 yards before trying a shot. If I find that I am having a problem with an animal that I can't get closer than 100 yards, I will need a scope. This particular model doesn't scope well so I have a few other rifles that would consider buying if the problem arises. First I would try a few traps to hold the animal so that I could get close enough. But for a general purpose farm gun that is easy to use and carry with a sling and has very good reviews, this is the rifle that I choose to start with.

:lonergr:


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## A-S (Nov 16, 2005)

I've browsed through the posts in this thread with interest. I've been an advanced weapons instructor in the Brit and Canadian militaries for (now) a quarter of a century (and counting). I shoot almost daily, study ballistics, make my own ammo, design ranges, tach marksmanship, implement weapons programs, advise commanding offciers on programs, etc., and get paid for the privilege (and it is).

Probably you toughest decision is the idea of having only one gun. I have a few, all for different purposes. My bush gun is a Marlin 45/70 - great for large game in close country and it also always comes with me on hikes in the mountains (grizzly insurance). I have a .243 than can quickly shift from deer to coyotes. My savage .17 magnum is an outstanding small varmint gun (taking gophers out to 300 metres, no probs) and my trusty little Ruger 10/22 is the best workhorse of the lot. I've taken more gophers than I care to recall, as well as beaver, muskrat, porcupine, and coyote. It gets cleaned once a year whether it likes it or not and in 15 years, I have never had a problem or replaced a part. The list goes on.

I didn't see any mention of budget. If that is an issue, there are some great deals out there. I woulnd't buy a second-hand gun except from a reputable dealer with some sort of warranty attached.

Anyway, the old saying, "beware the man with only one rifle - he likely knows how to use it!", is very true. The trick is, "which rifle?" Well, if it were me, I would never have just one gun. In may trade, I always have primary long gun and a back-up pistol. That's just the way it is. For you, though I would suggest a 20 guage shotgun. It can do pretty much whatever a 12 guage can and is easier on the body of either a novice shooter or someone with a smaller frame (no assumptions being made). My Charles Daley tactical pump is used regularly by my nine year-old who fires buckshot and slugs. If you insist on going with a rifle, though, I'd suggest a Stevens model 200 in .223 Remington. The rifle is cheap like borscht and very well made for the price. The .223 will serve you well. Having said that I do feel that the previous comments about safety/neighbouring property/livestock, etc. are very valid. If you have never taken a firearms safety course, now might be the time.

In any case, good luck with your choice and let us all know what you decide upon and why.

Postscript: Keep in mind as well that all varmints who come calling may not be on four legs. Hence consideration of personal protection might also be a fcator. In Canada, it is absolutley illegal to carry a handgun anywhere but a registered range while engaged in shooting. Tough. My CZ 9mm will accompany me at all times on my new place. I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by six.


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

remmington 870 wingmaster AR AR AR AR AR. ug.


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## MississippiSlim (Aug 21, 2005)

> A over under it has a 22 on top & 410 on the bottom.


Just what I was thinking....Spartan arms has one for msrp of $237
Savage is a bill or two higher. Can't go wrong. .22 is great for some shots but is not for others with the .410 you have all bases covered. I would suggest taking a firearms safety or hunter safety course to all folks who are new to firearms (and alot who aren't new to them)


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## MELOC (Sep 26, 2005)

MR. 45/70 MARLIN OWNER...i respect your choice of weapons. i have a marlin 35 rem caliber for brush hunting and love it. i used a 30/30 for many years and love it too. the 35 rem definately helps in the brush. i had two or three nice bucks get away because i hit a six inch log or tree right in front of them using the 30/30. if you do not have a totally clean shot you need a brush gun, lol.

if i could only have one gun it would most likely be a 410. maybe an old 410/22 over under. a 410 slug is plenty big enough to take a deer and shoots fairly decent. as a shotgun it is big enough to work but small enough not to pulverize your game. it is small enough for the most petite of folk to use.


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