# Climate Change



## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

@Alice In TX/MO shared a website https://globalecoguy.org/@GlobalEcoGuy that I find intriguing and I would like to use as a basis for a climate change discussion.

It leads to https://www.drawdown.org/ which also looks promising.

I know climate change evokes passion all around.

I'd like to ask the question, "Can we reverse climate change?" It is a simple yes or no question.

Please provide some credible reference for your answer that quantifies the effect on climate change and talk about how reasonable it is to expect the world, (USA, China, Europe, et all, Canada too) to make this change.

Thanks


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Scientists trying to determine how the Earth might change as temperatures rise often look back in time to a period around 3.6 million years ago called the middle Pliocene, when concentrations of carbon dioxide ranged from about 380 to 450 parts per million. (Today they are nearing 400.)

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...n-pliocene-last-time-co2-levels-above-400ppm/


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

No.

It's natural cycles - mostly astronomical and geological that cause changes in climate. My argument? Been happening long before humans walked the planet...to be exact for about 4.5 billion years of Earth history.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

There is nothing that modern man could have done to have prevented/changed the ice age. Anyone with half a brain knows that climate has been changing since Day 1. I don't beleive I need to post a reference for my statements above.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alder said:


> No.
> 
> It's natural cycles - mostly astronomical and geological that cause changes in climate. My argument? Been happening long before humans walked the planet...to be exact for about 4.5 billion years of Earth history.


Can you site a scientific journal supporting that?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Cabin Fever said:


> There is nothing that modern man could have done to have prevented/changed the ice age. Anyone with half a brain knows that climate has been changing since Day 1. I don't beleive I need to post a reference for my statements above.


Then why does a very large number of people and many governments cite our battle to reverse climate change as the biggest issue facing the world today?

To paraphrase what you said, are they simply that stupid?


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

These politicians want to control you and your lifestyle and make a few bucks in the process.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Trying to combat climate change exclusively with today’s renewable energy technologies simply won’t work; we need a fundamentally different approach.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/what-it-would-really-take-to-reverse-climate-change

It goes on to say, basically they have no answer.

We’re not trying to predict the winning technology here, but its cost needs to be vastly lower than that of fossil energy systems. 

To reverse climate change, our society requires something beyond today’s renewable energy technologies. 

We’re hopeful, because sometimes engineers and scientists do achieve the impossible.​


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

What would happen to the climate if we were to stop emitting carbon dioxide today, right now? Would we return to the climate of our elders?

The simple answer is no. 

Once we release the carbon dioxide stored in the fossil fuels we burn, it accumulates in and moves among the atmosphere, the oceans, the land and the plants and animals of the biosphere. The released carbon dioxide will remain in the atmosphere for thousands of years. Only after many millennia will it return to rocks, for example, through the formation of calcium carbonate – limestone – as marine organisms’ shells settle to the bottom of the ocean. But on time spans relevant to humans, once released the carbon dioxide is in our environment essentially forever. It does not go away, unless we, ourselves, remove it.

In order to stop the accumulation of heat, we would have to eliminate not just carbon dioxide emissions, but all greenhouse gases, such as methane and nitrous oxide. We’d also need to reverse deforestation and other land uses that affect the Earth’s energy balance (the difference between incoming energy from the sun and what’s returned to space). We would have to radically change our agriculture. If we did this, it would eliminate additional planetary warming, and limit the rise of air temperature. Such a cessation of warming is not possible.

So if we stop emitting carbon dioxide from burning fossil fuels today, it’s not the end of the story for global warming. There’s a delay in air-temperature increase as the atmosphere catches up with all the heat that the Earth has accumulated. After maybe 40 more years, scientists hypothesize the climate will stabilize at a temperature higher than what was normal for previous generations.

https://theconversation.com/if-we-s...-right-now-would-we-stop-climate-change-78882


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

HDRider said:


> Can you site a scientific journal supporting that?


Here's one site, although it's not a "journal":
https://www.geological-digressions.com/astronomy-cycles-and-climate-change/


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Here's one site, although it's not a "journal":
> https://www.geological-digressions.com/astronomy-cycles-and-climate-change/


Maybe "journal" was a bad choice of words.

They seemed very neutral...

The IPCC graph shows the predicted Milankovitch orbits for about 50,000 years from now. The eccentricity curve indicates that earth is in a cooling phase. 

We can expect full glacial conditions in about 20,000 to 30,000 years but there is no need to panic just yet. Within this time frame we can probably expect the odd, brief warming or cooling, like the short-lived events during medieval times and about 3000 years ago, that resulted from small changes in obliquity and precession (axis tilt 3000 years ago was closer to 24o). 

Under normal conditions we would expect carbon dioxide and air-sea temperature trends to follow suit i.e. lower atmospheric CO2concentrations during glaciations, peaking at about 280-300ppm during interglacial periods (note on the graphs that 0 time is 1950). However, both of these variables are currently trending in the opposite direction; both CO2 and surface temperatures are increasing. 

These observations, now confirmed with a high degree of confidence, are central to climate science. These data trends require a scientific explanation regardless of one’s position for or against anthropogenic-driven climate change. *Climate change science posits the theory that increasing CO2 and temperature are perturbing the natural Milankovitch cycles.* Those who disagree argue that these trends are part of natural cycles or that the data is corrupted in some way. *Modern science for the most part supports the former position.*


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

Rider; most of us are skeptical of that "modem science" bit. We already know that some of the research has been faked to show warming, and we know that politicians are bent on making money off climate warnings. We especially are scornful of "scientists" who run about shouting "climate change" when they have had to change the term for hot to cold to "change". Further, we know that there are scientists who are specialists in climate studies who do not agree with the little red hens. It is by no means settled science.

Finally; when the crunch comes, mankind will handle it just as mankind has handled past challenges.
Chin up, march on.

By the way; did you know that in parts of China (and elsewhere) greenhouses are pumped full of CO2 at three and four times the normal rate to accelerate the growth of the plants in those places? Breathe deeply, use your fireplace, restore the Amazon.

Oh, I almost forgot; if we heat up the place a bit more we can restore Greenland (after we buy it) and flip it! (How long has it been since the Danes farmed it?)


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Oxankle said:


> Rider; *most of us are skeptical* of that "modem science" bit. We already know that some of the research has been faked to show warming, and we know that politicians are bent on making money off climate warnings. We especially are scornful of "scientists" who run about shouting "climate change" when they have had to change the term for hot to cold to "change". Further, we know that there are scientists who are specialists in climate studies who do not agree with the little red hens. It is by no means settled science.
> 
> Finally; when the crunch comes, mankind will handle it just as mankind has handled past challenges.
> Chin up, march on.
> ...


Agreed.

My reason for posting was not so much to debate the reality of climate change, but more to show how the narrative has shifted somewhat in the last few years.

There were a lot of hysterics a few years ago anytime someone challenged the idea that we could reverse climate change.

I do think many more of us are seeing it for what it is, a way to control us, and to squeeze the lemon a little harder.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

There is precious little evidence that co2 has anything to do with the warming we've seen over the past 30 yrs. In the past 20 yrs, co2 levels have increased from 380ppm to 410ppm, but temps, even as erroneously averaged, have not gone up at all (the rise reported of 0.1 deg is within the margin of error). ie- while co2 may be a factor in weather & climate, it's too small to be of any consequence compared to the Milankovich Cycle, the Pacific & Atlantic oceanic cycles, the solar cycles, etc etc....If you're mathematically inclined, try graphing y = sin x + sin 2x + sin 3x. You'll see what I mean.

More to your original question: if co2 _were_ all that important and burning fossil fuels _is_ the problem, could we influence the climate? ...that's not the right question. The right one is let's assume it would matter. What would it cost ? Can we afford it? The estimate is that it would cost the world $4QUADrillion. Considering the world total yearly GDP is about $100trillion, then everyone in the world would have to contribute their total yearly income for 40 years to get it done.

Finally answer- no we can't afofrd it even if it would help.
But rest easy. It wouldn't help and it's not important. In fact, we're on the way to the next Ice Age: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/08/22/listen-to-the-trees/

Oops. Inflation strikes again. It's been a couple yrs since I read about the cost of savingthe planet. It's now up to $6 quadrillion https://www.wnd.com/2012/08/the-6-quadrillion-cost-of-the-climate-scam/


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## red1 (Jun 19, 2007)

HDRider said:


> @Alice In TX/MO "Can we reverse climate change?"
> 
> Thanks


Sure, absolutely..Enough to save our species?
no...


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## shawnlee (Apr 13, 2010)

red1 said:


> Sure, absolutely..Enough to save our species?
> no...


 The humans will die from being idiots, not climate change.....cave men survived the ice age, we will be fine.


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## Alder (Aug 18, 2014)

HDRider said:


> Can you site a scientific journal supporting that?


Any freshman Geology textbook.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

1. Will humans get organized enough to do anything about man made climate change.
Nope. The only two things humans unite on in large scale is destroying their natural environment and killing each other.

2. Can humans reverse the pollution/climate change, do we actually have the technology?
I don't think so.
Way too much concentrated & diffused pollution.

3. Can you change humans to live within the environment that sustains them?
Absloutley not.
Humans view the natural world as a threat that needs to be defeated instead of the cradle that produced and sustained them.
They don't care how much they pollute & destroy to get bananas in January or coffee year round, or another plastic toy of some kind.

Humans are a destructive parasite macro virus that reproduces in excess and consumes everything around it, and when it reaches sufficient numbers, it will kill the host.
On the other hand, human numbers are sufficient to be a food source for other parasites and natural/unnatural evolution is adapting to feed on humans.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I am at Sonic, having just enjoyed a corndog and cheese sticks with marinara. 

Although the OP sort of directed the thread in my general direction, I am thrilled that y’all are having such a grand time discussing climate change. 

Between this morning’s migraine and a total cluster of a plumbing repair at my son’s house, I can’t rustle up much energy for the climate. 

Y’all have fun.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

So they make KFC out of kelp, and dogs out of corn. Wow, what a world we live in


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I am at Sonic, having just enjoyed a corndog and cheese sticks with marinara.
> 
> Although the OP sort of directed the thread in my general direction, I am thrilled that y’all are having such a grand time discussing climate change.
> 
> ...


Hope you get to feeling better.


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## dyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

Personally, were I convinced that warming would continue and accelerate I'd be buying 10,000 acres of (for now) barren ice in Greenland for pennies on the dollar... well above sea level of course.


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## keenataz (Feb 17, 2009)

HDRider said:


> @Alice In TX/MO shared a website https://globalecoguy.org/@GlobalEcoGuy that I find intriguing and I would like to use as a basis for a climate change discussion.
> 
> It leads to https://www.drawdown.org/ which also looks promising.
> 
> ...



My simple answer is no.

It is too complex, and although I believe human's are partially responsible, there are many other factors.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

dyrne said:


> Personally, were I convinced that warming would continue and accelerate I'd be buying 10,000 acres of (for now) barren ice in Greenland for pennies on the dollar... well above sea level of course.


Seems like I heard about someone else saying that. Can't recall for sure.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

keenataz said:


> My simple answer is no.
> 
> It is too complex, and although I believe human's are partially responsible, there are many other factors.


Reason prevails. There is hope for you my friend.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

No, and we have more pressing emergencies anyway. Like all the sea life we are killing with pollution. That is much worse. 

I've been in the carbon credit scene. It's a money maker but nothing seems to really happen other than that. It's a scam.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> No, and we have more pressing emergencies anyway. Like all the sea life we are killing with pollution. That is much worse.
> 
> I've been in the carbon credit scene. It's a money maker but nothing seems to really happen other than that. It's a scam.


We do have some dire things to address, and seems they play second to the mythology of CC


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> We do have some dire things to address, and seems they play second to the mythology of CC


Yes and while we are making progress on that front with more green energy than we ever have before, the powers that be keep the infighting current. They want the Paris Accord. It's mucho denero. 

For the select few.


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## manfred (Dec 21, 2005)

I'm a fan of climate change. There are winners and loosers,
I love that we have warmer winters here in okla, fewer wrecks on ice and snow.
I guess all the elites on the warm coasts aren't as happy about it as I am.
It has not seemed any hotter here in the summer and I've lived here a long time.
Go ahead crybabys!


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## red1 (Jun 19, 2007)

shawnlee said:


> The humans will die from being idiots, not climate change.....cave men survived the ice age, we will be fine.


ice age and global warming...apples and oranges...


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

red1 said:


> ice age and global warming...apples and oranges...


Elaborate, please?


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## D-BOONE (Feb 9, 2016)

It is possible to reverse the climate change effects on humans .....make humans extinct.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Mish said:


> Elaborate, please?


Apparently if we have an ice age we will be eating apples and oranges if we have global warming.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

There is another thread about the volcano eruption that is sending ash, etc., into the atmosphere. The mind boggles.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

mreynolds said:


> Apparently if we have an ice age we will be eating apples and oranges if we have global warming.


Well then, I'll take global warming. One can only eat so many apples.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mish said:


> Well then, I'll take global warming. One can only eat so many apples.


It is just not that easy of a decision for me.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HDRider said:


> It is just not that easy of a decision for me.


Well you better make a decision. We have to figure out which part of the planet we need to all stack up on to tilt it in the appropriate angle towards the sun. You can't sit on the fence with this one.

Although apples do make better alcoholic beverages. I may have talked myself out of the oranges group.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Cabin Fever said:


> These politicians want to control you and your lifestyle and make a few bucks in the process.


I disagree.... They want to make huge amounts in the process!


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

red1 said:


> Sure, absolutely..Enough to save our species?
> no...


The silver lining..... No more taxes!


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Omg. A friend of mine took orange peels from my tree and made a beverage like limoncello. It is grand.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Omg. A friend of mine took orange peels from my tree and made a beverage like limoncello. It is grand.


https://vinepair.com/articles/differences-cointreau-triple-sec-grand-marnier/


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Omg. A friend of mine took orange peels from my tree and made a beverage like limoncello. It is grand.


_Really_. I happen to have an orange tree and always too many oranges. That might be something worth looking into


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mish said:


> Well you better make a decision. We have to figure out which part of the planet we need to all stack up on to tilt it in the appropriate angle towards the sun. You can't sit on the fence with this one.
> 
> Although apples do make better alcoholic beverages. I may have talked myself out of the oranges group.


See


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Omg. A friend of mine took orange peels from my tree and made a beverage like limoncello. It is grand.


Good friend to have


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## red1 (Jun 19, 2007)

Mish said:


> Elaborate, please?


Living in the ice age..very small populations..at one time had fire..caves shelter..water, game..barbarians.
Global warming...now...7 billion people..extraordinary weather pattern flucuations..record temps..every year...
The impact is huge..


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

red1 said:


> Living in the ice age..very small populations..at one time had fire..caves shelter..water, game..barbarians.
> Global warming...now...7 billion people..extraordinary weather pattern flucuations..record temps..every year...
> The impact is huge..


It sounds like the problem and the solution are one and the same.
Humans WOULD survive, just not all of them. The excess baggage would be gone.
Maybe that's the biggest fear that some have? They aren't sure what group they are in.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Omg. A friend of mine took orange peels from my tree and made a beverage like limoncello. It is grand.


Pretty soon, due to global warming, we'll be able to grow orange trees in Minnesota. When that happens, I'll have to give your friend's recipe a try.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

farmrbrown said:


> It sounds like the problem and the solution are one and the same.
> Humans WOULD survive, just not all of them. The excess baggage would be gone.
> Maybe that's the biggest fear that some have? They aren't sure what group they are in.


I know which group I'll be in and it won't be hanging out with a handful of survivors. I'll be in heaven eating biscuits n gravey!


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

red1 said:


> Living in the ice age..very small populations..at one time had fire..caves shelter..water, game..barbarians.
> Global warming...now...7 billion people..extraordinary weather pattern flucuations..record temps..every year...
> The impact is huge..


So it sounds like global warming is a good thing. You can grow more food for more people than you could during an ice age.

What's the problem?


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

“Hold my beer,” said Mother Earth. 

https://www.countryliving.com/life/travel/a28722622/farmers-almanac-winter-2019-2020-predictions/


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## emdeengee (Apr 20, 2010)

Nature has a way of healing itself or changing. Of course human activities and interference are making a huge mess now but once we are gone (or drastically reduced which is what I think will happen) the planet will continue. 

When WW2 started the fish stocks in the Atlantic were so depleted that if they had had any environmental knowledge back then it would have been classed as threatened extinction. Seven years of war which prevented commercial fishing allowed the stocks to build up to the levels they had been 150 years before. It really does not take long.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

red1 said:


> Living in the ice age..very small populations..at one time had fire..caves shelter..water, game..barbarians.
> Global warming...now...7 billion people..extraordinary weather pattern flucuations..record temps..every year...
> The impact is huge..


Right. Warmer is easier and better...
How many people retire and move _North_?

BTW- weather is not fluctuating more. In fact, FEWER tornadoes and hurricanes the last 40 yrs. Popular media is full of lies because they are propaganda organs for the OneWorld Movement/Agenda 21.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

You left out Idiocracy.


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## Wolf mom (Mar 8, 2005)

Of course we can.
Hearken back to when Climate Change was called Climate Warming. Now it's called Climate Change. All we have to do is change the wording. 
Of course I'm being sarcastic. That's how I feel about this whole argument.

I'm with CF on this. It's like cycles within cycles. Climate change today, last year, 10,000 years ago. If those who believe we need to effect change, why don't they go after the major pollutors in the world? China, India.....The US is about 37th on the list of pollutors.

The book, The Monster Reared His Ugly Head by Jim Paxton graphs the cycles within cycles. It was about the Rodeo-Chediski fire in east-central Arizona 17 years ago that burned 732,247 square miles. A portion of the book addressed the effect it had on climate and graphed the cycles within cycles of climate change. Gave it to a friend when I moved so I can't go into this deeper.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> You left out Idiocracy.


We just need to remember that plants don't need electrolytes.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

But......
Brawdo has what plants NEED!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

doc- said:


> Right. Warmer is easier and better...
> How many people retire and move _North_?
> 
> BTW- weather is not fluctuating more. In fact, FEWER tornadoes and hurricanes the last 40 yrs. Popular media is full of lies because they are propaganda organs for the OneWorld Movement/Agenda 21.


The tinfoil is supposed to be shiny side _out_. Just sayin'.


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## SLADE (Feb 20, 2004)

Irish Pixie said:


> The tinfoil is supposed to be shiny side _out_. Just sayin'.


That right there is a good one.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> The tinfoil is supposed to be shiny side _out_. Just sayin'.


Read it and get back to us.

https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/content/documents/Agenda21.pdf


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

SRSLADE said:


> That right there is a good one.


Thank you. Thankyouverymuch.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> Thank you. Thankyouverymuch.


Elvis, is that you?


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Climate change started way back when prehistoric man made that first fire to cook his dinosaur. 
But seriously, climate change has been around longer than humanoid creatures. The fossil record is proof of the change. At one time even Ohio was covered by a shallow ocean and was home to some very large corals and sea creatures. 

I just hope those 6 foot long dragonflies don't come back. They were big enough to see humans as slow food.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> “Hold my beer,” said Mother Earth.
> 
> https://www.countryliving.com/life/travel/a28722622/farmers-almanac-winter-2019-2020-predictions/


I see they are predicting a cold Winter.
I'm not feeling surprised.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

My definition of "winter" is more than 1 week of below freezing temps. A few days here and there of below freezing and 3 days of below zero is not winter.

I have to buy a couple more portable heaters before "winter". Need more wood too, used most of a cord last year.


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## GunMonkeyIntl (May 13, 2013)

red1 said:


> Living in the ice age..very small populations..at one time had fire..caves shelter..water, game..barbarians.
> Global warming...now...7 billion people..extraordinary weather pattern flucuations..record temps..every year...
> The impact is huge..


There was an article in National Geographic (tm) recently that had a picture of cave drawings found at the top of K2. The drawings were left there by an early, coastal people of the Quaternary period.

The drawings depicted a bountiful fish harvest, and the 15 day outlook from one of the shaman's Weather Channel (tm) app. It showed some pretty wild weather pattern fluctuations. 80% chance of ooga one day, and 3" of booga the next.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I see they are predicting a cold Winter.
> I'm not feeling surprised.


We had one of those last year. It wasn't anything that we don't see in my part of Alberta but it didn't stop me from whining about it and checking the weather network frequently for a Chinook.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

wr said:


> but it didn't stop me from whining about it


I hate cold weather too.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I hate cold weather too.


You wouldn't like our house, my Yvonne sets the thermostat at 60 in the winter and drops it to "meat locker" in the summer!


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## red1 (Jun 19, 2007)

farmrbrown said:


> It sounds like the problem and the solution are one and the same.
> Humans WOULD survive, just not all of them. The excess baggage would be gone.
> Maybe that's the biggest fear that some have? They aren't sure what group they are in.


I'm pretty sure no one wants to suffer through food and water shortages, roving armed gangs...people taking the law into th


doc- said:


> Right. Warmer is easier and better...
> How many people retire and move _North_?
> 
> BTW- weather is not fluctuating more. In fact, FEWER tornadoes and hurricanes the last 40 yrs. Popular media is full of lies because they are propaganda organs for the OneWorld Movement/Agenda 21.


Goodness!! I didn't know that......!!
You need to get with all these people and tell them how misguided they are

https://www.google.com/search?clien...hUKEwil9fu-xqXkAhVKhq0KHZiqCGMQ4dUDCAc&uact=5


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

red1 said:


> I'm pretty sure no one wants to suffer through food and water shortages, roving armed gangs...people taking the law into th


I'm pretty sure of that too.
I'm also sure that I'm one that could deal with it if it happened, then go to sleep with a full belly in a warm safe place afterwards.
How bout you?


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> The tinfoil is supposed to be shiny side _out_. Just sayin'.


Push your tin hat up. It's covering your eyes.
Here's the graph of historic temps. The trend is DOWN. The updated graph covering the last couple yrs (I couldn't find it quickly) is a LIE. They claim now we've warmed 1degC, and that the Medieval Warm Period was only 0.4degC above the baseline---But everyone knows they were growing grapes and making wine in Iceland during those days. ….Can they grow grapes there now? Use your own brains and don't believe everything you read in the National Enquirer or NY Times.

edited to add https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/03...ornadoes-and-temperature-increase-in-the-usa/ Same for hurricanes.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Link to source, please.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

red1 said:


> I'm pretty sure no one wants to suffer through food and water shortages, roving armed gangs...people taking the law into th
> 
> 
> Goodness!! I didn't know that......!!
> ...


Do you really know what the G7 really is? Do you really think they sit around and talk about climate change all day? 

They only represent 10% of the population. They don't want other countries to be members but they will invite them so they can tell them what to do in their own countries.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

NASA disagrees

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/world-of-change/DecadalTemp


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

doc- said:


> Push your tin hat up. It's covering your eyes. :snipped non sourced, non cited information and graph:


My response was to your statement:


doc- said:


> Popular media is full of lies because they are propaganda organs for the OneWorld Movement/Agenda 21.


I'm not going to argue climate change. Nothing will be impacted by sniping and quoting conflicting articles at each other. My _opinion_ is that it's partially man made, cannot be reversed, but can be slowed down.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I hate cold weather too.


I like cold weather onaccounta I like Frozen Jack Slushies. Our freezer doesn't get cold enough to freeze whisky, but our back porch does.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Link to source, please.


Now yer gettin' technical. Just search "Holocene temperature record" and click on "images" You'll get dozens and dozens of similar graphs. You can track down the source from there.

Re: NASA- a bureaucracy. Prime directive of a bureaucrat is "Ensure your own job." No problem = no funding.
NASA has been periodically "updating" the data. They're making the recent yrs look a little warmer and the past years colder to make it appear we're warming faster. They forget that nothing ever disappears from the internet. They've been caught at least 3 times in the past 10 yrs.....We could get into a long exposition here of how devious and unethical the record keeping & "science" is, but I don't have the time to educate everyone. Follow that WUWT site, among others, and educate yourselves.

One point of interest-- have any of you considered what the fall of the Soviet Union did for "Global Warming?" They closed 1800 Siberian weather stations in 1989- just when "GW" got its start. I wonder how that influenced that "global average?"


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

red1 said:


> Living in the ice age..very small populations..at one time had fire..caves shelter..water, game..barbarians.
> Global warming...now...7 billion people..extraordinary weather pattern flucuations..record temps..every year...
> The impact is huge..


I was wondering what did the kool-aid taste like?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Cabin Fever said:


> I was wondering what did the kool-aid taste like?


LOL.
The most common flavor back then was Wooly Mammoth Urine.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

You posted the chart without a link to the source, and now you don’t have time. Uh huh. 

Smells like stinky bait to me.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> NASA disagrees
> 
> https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/world-of-change/DecadalTemp


Nasas chart is looking at extremely recent and very brief time frames. In the big picture temps are in a downward direction.... By a lot!


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

farmrbrown said:


> LOL.
> The most common flavor back then was Wooly Mammoth Urine.


From what I can gather, cave paintings have indicated Wooly Mammoth urine tasted like frozen Jack Daniels.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I hate cold weather too.





Yvonne's hubby said:


> You wouldn't like our house, my Yvonne sets the thermostat at 60 in the winter and drops it to "meat locker" in the summer!


After sitting here dripping sweat with 100+ temps the last couple of days/week or so, I got inappropriately angry/jealous at you both.

I hate summer. Really do. And we're only about half way through our really hot part. A nice blizzard sounds wonderful.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Irish Pixie said:


> From what I can gather, cave paintings have indicated Wooly Mammoth urine tasted like frozen Jack Daniels.


Ewwww!

I guess the color and texture would be about right and as long as it had the same effect.........." Bottoms up, Og!"


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Mish said:


> After sitting here dripping sweat with *100+ temps the last couple of days/week* or so, I got inappropriately angry/jealous at you both.


That describes a typical July and August here.
But when it's -40 up North, we will be anywhere from 60-80°, depending on which way the wind is blowing.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mish said:


> After sitting here dripping sweat with 100+ temps the last couple of days/week or so, I got inappropriately angry/jealous at you both.
> 
> I hate summer. Really do. And we're only about half way through our really hot part. A nice blizzard sounds wonderful.


The Alabama Pixie will be in upstate NY on Saturday. She asked what the temps were like, and I told her mid 70s during the day, mid 50s at night. She said she's going to freeze because it's still 90s with high humidity down there. I told her I'd add a down comforter to her bed, and to bring sweatshirts.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Danaus29 said:


> I just hope those 6 foot long *dragonflies* don't come back. They were big enough to see humans as slow food.


We had these:


> *Before There Were Crocodiles, There Was the "Carolina Butcher ...*
> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/new-species-crocodiles-there-was...
> Mar 19, 2015 · Before There Were Crocodiles, There Was the “*Carolina Butcher*” A newly discovered crocodilian ancestor was a *nine-foot-tall* predator that stood on its hind legs.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Cabin Fever said:


> I like cold weather onaccounta I like Frozen Jack Slushies.


Civilized cultures sip Mint Juleps in the shade of a big Oak tree covered in Spanish Moss


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> We had these:
> 
> View attachment 79070


I think I may have dated her sister once!


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> I think I may have dated her sister once!


My ex wife didn't have any sisters.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> That describes a typical July and August here.
> But when it's -40 up North, we will be anywhere from 60-80°, depending on which way the wind is blowing.


Yeah, those are our typical August/September (sometimes October) temps. Autumn? What's that? Oh, that time of year I loathe. I've been trying to keep up with picking anything close to ripe out in the garden or the sun literally cooks it on the vine (anyone ever eaten vine-fresh stewed tomatoes? Delicious).



Irish Pixie said:


> The Alabama Pixie will be in upstate NY on Saturday. She asked what the temps were like, and I told her mid 70s during the day, mid 50s at night. She said she's going to freeze because it's still 90s with high humidity down there. I told her I'd add a down comforter to her bed, and to bring sweatshirts.


I've been hearing it's just terribly nasty there. Are they starting to acclimatize? I bet she's looking forward to getting a nice coolness break. We went up to San Francisco a couple weeks ago and it was like going to heaven, until we got back home and it made the heat feel worse.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Mish said:


> (anyone ever eaten vine-fresh stewed tomatoes? Delicious).


They go well with Sun Ripened Possum.
(And a nice Chianti)


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mish said:


> I've been hearing it's just terribly nasty there. Are they starting to acclimatize? I bet she's looking forward to getting a nice coolness break. We went up to San Francisco a couple weeks ago and it was like going to heaven, until we got back home and it made the heat feel worse.


Kinda sorta getting used to the humidity. She said it's worth freezing to death for real NY pizza, halfmoon cookies, speidies, and going to state fair.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Kinda sorta getting used to the humidity. She said it's worth freezing to death for real NY pizza, halfmoon cookies, speidies, and going to state fair.


Oh, it sounds like it's totally worth it


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## georger (Sep 15, 2003)

Oxankle said:


> Rider; most of us are skeptical of that "modem science" bit. We already know that some of the research has been faked to show warming, and we know that politicians are bent on making money off climate warnings. We especially are scornful of "scientists" who run about shouting "climate change" when they have had to change the term for hot to cold to "change". Further, we know that there are scientists who are specialists in climate studies who do not agree with the little red hens. It is by no means settled science.
> 
> Finally; when the crunch comes, mankind will handle it just as mankind has handled past challenges.
> Chin up, march on.
> ...


Amen!!


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## CKelly78z (Jul 16, 2017)

I'll take the heat of Summer any day over a cold biting wind, on a slippery 10* day. I can still function in 95* (wearing shorts, and docksider shoes), while my hands almost instantly get really cold, and shivering ensues quickly in a raw January wind (wearing a parka, and muck boots).


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## LT2108 (May 28, 2014)

CKelly78z said:


> I'll take the heat of Summer any day over a cold biting wind, on a slippery 10* day. I can still function in 95* (wearing shorts, and docksider shoes), while my hands almost instantly get really cold, and shivering ensues quickly in a raw January wind (wearing a parka, and muck boots).


wish I could like this 100 times......


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> You posted the chart without a link to the source, and now you don’t have time. Uh huh.
> 
> Smells like stinky bait to me.


Better see your ENT or neurosurgeon-- olfactory hallucinations are often a symptom of brain tumors 

That graph is one of many renditions of the Greenland ice core data. Here's a reference that goes into more detail and points out some of the tricks the "warmists" are using to hide the real record. Be sure to read the Comments section after the article-- often posted by leading climate scientists or researchers in pertinent, related fields.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/09...e-holocene-epoch-from-the-geologic-timescale/

The same graph is included in the Wiki article on Holocene Optimum


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

CKelly78z said:


> I'll take the heat of Summer any day over a cold biting wind, on a slippery 10* day. I can still function in 95* (wearing shorts, and docksider shoes), while my hands almost instantly get really cold, and shivering ensues quickly in a raw January wind (wearing a parka, and muck boots).


I would take the a blizzard snow with subzero temps while I sit in front of our fireplace reading a good book and sipping hot cocoa over the hot, humid tropical heat of the south sitting in a warm, sticky house (because the AC can't keep up) and having all the shades and drapes closed to keep the sunlight out.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> You posted the chart without *a link to the source*, and now you don’t have time. Uh huh.


On my computer I can right-click on any image and it gives me the option to "Search Bing for the image". That usually brings up more than one site using it.

Here's where the chart took me:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/06...onstruction-part-4-the-global-reconstruction/


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Cabin Fever said:


> I would take the a blizzard snow with subzero temps while I sit in front of our fireplace reading a good book and sipping hot cocoa over the hot, humid tropical heat of the south sitting in a warm, sticky house (because the AC can't keep up) and having all the shades and drapes closed to keep the sunlight out.


You paint a very skewed picture.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HDRider said:


> You paint a very skewed picture.


So does everyone that says they'll take the heat. I'm sure they're spending much of their time in an air conditioned space when temperatures are heat equivalent to blizzard temperatures. If you're not, it sucks, big time.

Plus, I can always put on more clothes to keep warm. There's only so naked you can get to try to cool off.

Totally with CF, having lived in both extremes.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Mish said:


> So does everyone that says they'll take the heat. I'm sure they're spending much of their time in an air conditioned space when temperatures are heat equivalent to blizzard temperatures. If you're not, it sucks, big time.
> 
> Plus, I can always put on more clothes to keep warm. There's only so naked you can get to try to cool off.
> 
> Totally with CF, having lived in both extremes.


_sitting in a warm, sticky house (because the AC can't keep up) and having all the shades and drapes closed to keep the sunlight out_​
A little over the top

I have had both too. I like 72, with low humidity, slight breeze, bright sun and a cold cocktail


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HDRider said:


> _sitting in a warm, sticky house (because the AC can't keep up) and having all the shades and drapes closed to keep the sunlight out_​
> A little over the top
> 
> I have had both too. I like 72, with low humidity, slight breeze, bright sun and a cold cocktail


Who doesn't? 

The AC comment isn't over the top here. Our AC unit is about 30 years old and was put in before whoever had the house prior to us added on some square footage. It's also on the opposite side of the house from the living area (the addition part of the house), and the cold air has to travel the length of the house and through a probably 180+ degree attic to reach the living area.

Even with the AC going full bore, it's hot. And expensive (like sell a kid expensive) to run because it's old partly but mostly because our electricity is expensive. So we don't run it often, and thus it's not worth it to replace. 

So we sit around in a 80-90+ degree house sweating a lot in the summer. On really bad days we'll go shopping just to enjoy the car AC and store AC. 

I didn't find his example over the top at all. Still prefer cold.


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## Cabin Fever (May 10, 2002)

HDRider said:


> _sitting in a warm, sticky house (because the AC can't keep up) and having all the shades and drapes closed to keep the sunlight out_​
> A little over the top
> 
> I have had both too. I like 72, with low humidity, slight breeze, bright sun and a cold cocktail


Sounds like the day we're having today in Minnesota.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Cabin Fever said:


> Sounds like the day we're having today in Minnesota.


I do love those summers up there


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## red1 (Jun 19, 2007)

mreynolds said:


> Do you really know what the G7 really is? Do you really think they sit around and talk about climate change all day?
> 
> They only represent 10% of the population. They don't want other countries to be members but they will invite them so they can tell them what to do in their own countries.



Play cards? Catch up on the latest americun leaders screwups?
Genius I say...making mountains out of molehills just so the leaders can get together and party...no real indications of a problem..
https://www.google.com/search?clien...hUKEwj5pITKlabkAhUBd6wKHcdfDzsQ4dUDCAc&uact=5


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Mish said:


> So does everyone that says they'll take the heat. I'm sure they're spending much of their time in an air conditioned space when temperatures are heat equivalent to blizzard temperatures. If you're not, it sucks, big time.
> 
> Plus, I can always put on more clothes to keep warm. There's only so naked you can get to try to cool off.
> 
> Totally with CF, having lived in both extremes.


No, not everyone.
As I've gotten older the heat is a little harder to take but when you've been raised in a warm climate for multiple generations you ARE better adapted to the heat. I used to watch Northern friends turn red and give out halfway thru the day, all I needed was a cold drink and short breaks. Not A/C, I'm talking construction work in August in Florida.
That's why people are different. Humans have adapted to live all over this planet. We all aren't as dumb as the PhD's would like to think.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> No, not everyone.
> As I've gotten older the heat is a little harder to take but when you've been raised in a warm climate for multiple generations you ARE better adapted to the heat. I used to watch Northern friends turn red and give out halfway thru the day, all I needed was a cold drink and short breaks.
> That's why people are different. Humans have adapted to live all over this planet. We all aren't as dumb as the PhD's would like to think.


That might be it, too. I was raised in a cold climate after many generations also being there, then have spent most of my adulthood in hot to very hot climates.

I've never been able to adapt. I hate hot weather with a passion that I can't describe. It gets worse the older I get, too. When/if we're ever able to retire somewhere else, we're going to be retiree weirdos that leave the heat and head to colder climates.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

What the climate deniers (science deniers, flat earthers, religious extremists, etc) refuse to recognize that is absloute fact...

1. As near as actual experts can tell, a solidly formed planet Earth (not just a collection of loosely collected rocks & dust),
Is *About* 4.5 Billion years old,
With life starting to reproduce *About* 3.5 Billion years ago.

2. What passed for *Life* then, no matter if it was spontaneous or carried in on comets, wouldn't be anything you would recognize today.
Now it would be classified as an 'Extremophile', somewhere between a microbe & bacteria, it could live in conditions everyone today would call 'Hell'.

3. That 'Goop' grew for millions of years unchecked, eating minerals, absorbing energy and reproducing until it's WASTE changed the atmosphere/oceans enough,
And adapted to those conditions, eventually evolving into other types of life forms, some you might even recognize if you had the education to recognize them.

4. As Green PLANTS finally evolved, and their WASTE (O2 Oxygen, not O3 or Ozone) changed the environment again, allowing for lung breathers to survive above the surface of the oceans.
Again, this took millions of years of unchecked growth, and the WASTE products changed the environmental conditions.

5. It's only been the last 65 Million (Million, not Billion) years the environmental conditions changed enough for mammals to dominate the planet.
Otherwise, mammals were simply food for reptiles and fertilizers for plants.

6. Eventually, the last 2 million years or so, climate changes due to dominate species allowed modern humans to evolve and become the dominate species.
Keep in mind all the changes were WASTE PRODUCTS that changed the environment.

7. Along come humans, become the dominate species, and release a crap load of the carbon the environment sequestered so conditions were favorable for humans...
Billions of years of slow carbon sequestration in the form of coal, oil, natural gas, sequestration of radioactive materials by slow erosion burying the heavier metals off the surface, billions of years of waste O2 left behind by plants, etc.

8. Then modern humans come along and dig up all that stuff and release it back into the atmosphere, and the results are the WASTE from 8 billion humans are changing the environmental conditions again...
This time faster than humans can evolve to survive easily in the environment, and aside from releasing the carbon/toxins, humans are changing the environmental conditions even faster by deforestation and killing off the oceans which provide that free 02 we breathe, contaminating the relatively small amount of free (released) fresh water we have, etc.

9. Over 99% of the species that have EVER existed on this planet are EXTINCT.
While bacteria, insects, etc can evolve quickly to adapt to changing conditions (and the reason they are so prolific), humans can not evolve as fast as the environment is being changed.

Keep in mind, there are species that have already evolved to eat human waste, like oil refinery waste, nuclear waste, so it's not a question if life will continue, it more than likely will.
There is bacteria growing in solid rock 5 miles deep that's not changed for 3 billion years, but it's adapting to survive in the oxygen rich, waste rich environment in the gold & diamond mines.
Not even an impactor that blows the planet apart has a big chance of making it extinct, it could very well ride to another planet through space and not know the difference...

Mining is a dirty, dangerous job now, and some small colony of humans might possibly survive mining in space or deep sea diving type suits,
Small colonies of humans might be able to build and sustain domes to live in...
But what happens to the biggest part of humanity when the air is no longer sustaining life, it rains acid or ammonia, every mosquito carries a virus that kills humans, when any dip into the ocean produces exposure to 'Flesh Eating Bacteria' or some virus we don't even know about yet...?
Keep in mind, when you are the dominant species, things WILL evolve to eat YOU, and it's happening right now...

9. Although I'm *Trying* to do MY part conserving on fossil fuels, using renewables, conserving & trying not to waste,
There are a 100,000 out there that buy big, heavily polluting vehicles, consuming without regarding the waste produced, fighting against ANY sustainable measures proposed...

They are, in effect, livestock running back into a burning barn simply because they don't know any better and don't care how hard the next generations will have things...
Pure greed & ego.

Insanity is doing the same thing over & over again, and expecting different results.
Endless money for weapons, but virtually nothing for clean air, water, sustainable efforts for future generations.
MUCH easier to stay ignorant than to do something (anything) in any meaningful way...
Or worse yet, deny the facts and be stupid with excess waste (party while Rome burns because it worked out so well for the Romans).

It's up to each of you, what America does, most of the rest of the world I'll follow...


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Mish said:


> That might be it, too. I was raised in a cold climate after many generations also being there, then have spent most of my adulthood in hot to very hot climates.
> 
> I've never been able to adapt. I hate hot weather with a passion that I can't describe. It gets worse the older I get, too. When/if we're ever able to retire somewhere else, we're going to be retiree weirdos that leave the heat and head to colder climates.


Two words: snow birds.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I went to the link referenced above with the chart. If you scan the article, there is an amusing section about errors inherent in the studies. 

Then, in the conclusion, this sentence....

“An accurate Holocene temperature reconstruction is not possible, even measuring the potential error in a reconstruction this long is incredibly difficult.”

So.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Irish Pixie said:


> Two words: snow birds.


Hehe, yeah, we'll just be passing all the other snow birds in the opposite direction


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Bearfootfarm said:


> We had these:
> 
> View attachment 79070


Proof that Carolina is the oldest state in the Union.


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

I vote for cold weather too. I love a good blizzard, as long as everyone I know is safe and warm in their house. I walked home from school (just a bit over a mile) at the beginning of "the big one" back in the 70's. I don't remember it as fondly as one we got hit with a few years before. We still lived with my grandparents. The first night when the snow was falling so fast you couldn't see the barn, Grandma let me turn on the outside floodlight and play out in the falling snow. We got so much snow the road was blocked with drifts. Grandpa took us out on our sleds and we climbed those drifts out on the road. School was closed for more than a week. When we went back to school there were monstrous piles of snow on the playground. The playground included a several acre mowed lawn and much of the road snow was piled on that lawn by the county. We were still playing "king of the mountain" on those piles when it was warm enough to wear a light jacket, about a month later.

My grandparents house didn't have air conditioning. We opened windows all around and the breeze blew through the house. It kept us nice and cool and there was a nice wrap around porch we could sleep on if it was really hot.

I've never lived in a house with central air. Our huge wall unit broke a few years back and we haven't been able to replace it yet. Even when it did work the back part of the house was terribly hot and stuffy, the living room wasn't much better. And the bill was higher than using all electric heat in the winter.


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> I went to the link referenced above with the chart. If you scan the article, there is an amusing section about errors inherent in the studies.
> 
> Then, in the conclusion, this sentence....
> 
> ...


Very good. You can find other graphs of the same data that also show the error bars. The single line "median" actually becomes even more flat by including the error. 

Take The Central Anglican Temp Record, for instance- a record kept continuously at the same place for 350 yrs. Average it out and take the variance of each daily temp---NONE of them are more than 2 SD from the mean---That means, statistically speaking, temps have not changed AT ALL at that location for 3 1/2 centuries.

Another technical point never discussed by the Panic Mongers is that temps are measured with thermometers that are only accurate to about 0.5deg, yet they are making calculations based on those readings down to hundredths of a degree-- bad math; bad "science." The satellites are more accurate, but have only been in use since the late 70s. They show much less warming than the thermometer records.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Considering all the prediction failures from the doomsday crowd, they could spend their time advocating changes that would have a real impact instead of emulating Chicken Little.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Considering all the prediction failures from the doomsday crowd, they could spend their time advocating changes that would have a real impact instead of emulating Chicken Little.


I remember Y2K and all the people who bought rice, beans and PB. I felt sorry for them as they probably would have all died from constipation.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

5 Billions years for this to evolve and 300,000 years for that to lose it's tail and goop that can learn three languages. 
Yaba daba doo!
I"ll shred 20 pages of my phone book and run it thru the blender for an hour. I'm sure I'll have the completed works of shakespeare verbatim when I pull out the mess of "goop".


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

Alice In TX/MO said:


> Considering all the prediction failures from the doomsday crowd, they could spend their time advocating changes that would have a real impact instead of emulating Chicken Little.


Exactly. One has to wonder how much Amazon Rain Forest could have been bought and protected with just the money spent on tickets to see Gore"s Inconvenient Truth propaganda piece.
The TreeHugger movement is a political tool, not science. Cf- Alinsky's Rules for Radicals-"exploit every crisis."


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

That about sums it up.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

Danaus29 said:


> I vote for cold weather too. I love a good blizzard, as long as everyone I know is safe and warm in their house. I walked home from school (just a bit over a mile) at the beginning of "the big one" back in the 70's. I don't remember it as fondly as one we got hit with a few years before. We still lived with my grandparents. The first night when the snow was falling so fast you couldn't see the barn, Grandma let me turn on the outside floodlight and play out in the falling snow. We got so much snow the road was blocked with drifts. Grandpa took us out on our sleds and we climbed those drifts out on the road. School was closed for more than a week. When we went back to school there were monstrous piles of snow on the playground. The playground included a several acre mowed lawn and much of the road snow was piled on that lawn by the county. We were still playing "king of the mountain" on those piles when it was warm enough to wear a light jacket, about a month later.
> 
> My grandparents house didn't have air conditioning. We opened windows all around and the breeze blew through the house. It kept us nice and cool and there was a nice wrap around porch we could sleep on if it was really hot.
> 
> I've never lived in a house with central air. Our huge wall unit broke a few years back and we haven't been able to replace it yet. Even when it did work the back part of the house was terribly hot and stuffy, the living room wasn't much better. And the bill was higher than using all electric heat in the winter.


We never had air when I was growing up in Ohio. I think when I was a teenager my mom got a little one-room window unit for our living room, but I don't remember using it much. Maybe we shut the doors and camped in the living room a few nights here and there. I do remember sleeping on the wrap around porch a few times before that, but living in town it was kind of weird and we didn't do it often.

My grandparents up on the lake had air, I think only because they ran a business out of one side of their home. I don't remember paying much attention to it until we came in from swimming, blue lips and freezing to death and grandma would turn it off right when we came in so we didn't go into hypothermia. It went back on after we had a hot shower so the clients could enjoy it. 

Man, that blizzard was one of the greatest events of my childhood. Used to hope and pray for stuff like that as a kid every winter, finally our prayers came true  Those were the days...


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## Oxankle (Jun 20, 2003)

LOL, I am amused. JeepHammer must be a real pessimist, and you folks with bad air conditioners must live somewhere where it does not get very hot. This cabin (about 1500 sq ft) had a rotten old AC when I bought it and it pooped out soon. I had a new unit put in, heat pump. Goes to electric heat below about 20F. I did not have to change the duct work as it was metal and well insulated.

The changeover was less than 5 grand and our bills are slightly over $100 per mo for an all-electric place. I run the AC during rthe day at 74 to 78 and turn it to 80 when we are to be gone. Wife is peculiar; she lived in the tropics for years but sleeps under blankets and turns the AC down to 68 or 69 at night. Frosts my buns, but there it is.

As for climate change; a stroke of genius. With one little tweak the folks who stand to profit from panic have both sides of the argument--hot or cold they can shout that the sky is falling. Only a few years ago they were saying that we'd die in a ball of fire. Then it was freezing to death, now they have it both ways. 

The climate scientists say that we are entering a long term cooling trend. Two or three, maybe five or six, generations of our descendants down the line scientists may have enough information to determine what is going on. 

Change is inevitable. Humans are adapted to change. Humans will survive and learn to do things we cannot imagine just as Charlemagne could not imagine tanks or airplanes, or as my great, great, gandfather could not imagine my a/c.

As a matter of opinion, I predict that adaptation will accelerate because information is now so readily available to all via the internet. Fifty years ago I could not imagine this conversation with hundreds of people I don't even know. Today I can learn to skin a pig, arrange an assignation, trap a ****, build a house---all on the net.


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## prinellie (Mar 16, 2016)

If you look over the long term it goes up and goes down. But as for polluters China is one of the worst. When all the ‘climate change’ people get them under control then we can talk. Until then it is just another wealth redistribution plan.... count me out


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> I remember Y2K and all the people who bought rice, beans and PB. I felt sorry for them as they probably would have all died from constipation.


I partied like it was 1999


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> I partied like it was 1999


I did too. Bon fire on a hill overlooking two cities. One to the North and one to the South. We were drinking moonshine and Shiner Bock. (Something about the word shine I guess) We counted down and watched the lights to see if they would go out. 

They didn't.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

mreynolds said:


> I did too. Bon fire on a hill overlooking two cities. One to the North and one to the South. We were drinking moonshine and Shiner Bock. (Something about the word shine I guess) We counted down and watched the lights to see if they would go out.
> 
> They didn't.


We hooked up with the band until wee hours, and then followed them home and kept on going until dawn. I went directly from that to make sure all our systems worked. Lucky for me I had a sober right hand man at work. We had worked for 18 months to get ready for Y2K.


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## Mish (Oct 15, 2015)

HDRider said:


> I partied like it was 1999


Apparently I did too, according to my husband. Don't remember a dang thing so he's probably right


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mreynolds said:


> I remember Y2K and all the people who bought rice, beans and PB. I felt sorry for them as they probably would have all died from constipation.


Nope, constipation never became an issue for me.... But I can say I didn't have to buy rice nor beans for several years!


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Mish said:


> Apparently I did too, according to my husband. Don't remember a dang thing so he's probably right


That's the best kind of party.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

HDRider said:


> We hooked up with the band until wee hours, and then followed them home and kept on going until dawn. I went directly from that to make sure all our systems worked. Lucky for me I had a sober right hand man at work. We had worked for 18 months to get ready for Y2K.


I remember Oncor electric doing short tests. They would shut down the grid in East Texas for a second at a time and ship the current to NY to see if it could be done. The theory was that if the East coast went off line the next time zone would shut off just enough to power the essential parts so that power plants could be reset. 

West coast would do mountain Time and East coast would do West coast. Or some combination thereof. 

When the lights didn't go out at 11pm I knew it was ok. NY didn't lose power.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Nope, constipation never became an issue for me.... But I can say I didn't have to buy rice nor beans for several years!


Yes but you are out of this world YH. Normal doesn't apply to you.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mreynolds said:


> Yes but you are out of this world YH. Normal doesn't apply to you.


I've heard that befor. Wherever I am... It's a nice place!


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## Danaus29 (Sep 12, 2005)

Oxankle said:


> LOL, I am amused. JeepHammer must be a real pessimist, and you folks with bad air conditioners must live somewhere where it does not get very hot.


Window air conditioners are just not as good as central air units. And it gets plenty hot here, we went almost a month with daily high temps above 90*F, nights in the mid to upper 70's this year. I've been through summers where days are at or close to 100 and night temps stay in the 80's. No 100* days yet this year, thankfully. It's the humidity that is a problem. The humidity here is terrible the first part of the summers. By August it's usually not so bad and night temps drop to low 60's and below.

Y2K, when noon eastern daylight time arrived I was no longer worried about the world ending. It was already Jan 1, 2000 on the other side of the planet and there were no news reports of the world having ended. Actually I didn't worry about it at all. If it ended there was nothing we could do to stop it, if it continued hubby still had to go to work.


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## Chris in Mich (May 13, 2002)

So much ignorance on this site hurts my head and spoils me from the actual knowledge i could gain relevant to my homestead. 

David Koch should have been cryogenically frozen and later revived over and over again; just for kicks.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

Chris, you are choosing which threads to read. Just sayin’.


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## Chris in Mich (May 13, 2002)

i can always hope to be gifted with some honest-to-goodness insight and perspective.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Chris in Mich said:


> So much ignorance on this site hurts my head and spoils me from the actual knowledge i could gain relevant to my homestead.
> 
> David Koch should have been cryogenically frozen and later revived over and over again; just for kicks.


Enlighten us.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Chris in Mich said:


> i can always hope to be gifted with some honest-to-goodness insight and perspective.


You don't have to rely on hope. If you are looking for insight and perspective combined with extreme intelligence and common sense just follow my posts!


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Chris in Mich said:


> So much ignorance on this site hurts my head and spoils me from the actual knowledge i could gain relevant to my homestead.
> 
> David Koch should have been cryogenically frozen and later revived over and over again; just for kicks.


Sit the Kool-Aid down.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

Chris in Mich said:


> i can always hope to be gifted with some honest-to-goodness insight and perspective.


It's out there, from well before the internet...
"Waste Not, Want Not"
"An Ounce Of Prevention Is Worth A Pound Of Cure"
"Hope For The Best, Prepare For The Worst"

I spent 16 years in the Marine Corps, mostly deployed for 14 years, I saw modern cities, entire countries go from first world with thousands of years of history & culture, all the modern conveniences to third world hell holes in less than a year.

I live in 'Tornado Alley' in my state, so a home/homestead that can't go to 'OZ' in one big blow.
Tornados, bugs, fire aren't much of an issue for my home.

I've spent a bunch of time in the field, no water or power (most of 14 years), with power & water all things are possible. With power it's easy to purify water and grow food, so I have my own power (and clean water).

Shelter, water, power/heat covered, then it's about food.
When you grow most of your own, and have a stockpile of what you can't grow, then you are mostly set for 'Adversity' when it shows up.

I made it through two 'Freak' blizzard years in the 70s, I've been through 3 or 4 tornados, including one since I built my home, I've been laid up medically up to 6 months at a time with no regular paychecks and still ate 3 times a day, could shelter, shower & toilet without issues.

I'm way out on the end of the power grid, if I were hooked up, I would have spent more than a week, and/or several days without grid power since it's been damaged several times throughout the last several years, my power didn't flicker.

It all about YOUR education,
Some have been comfortable and/or pampered all their lives and don't understand what happens when the lights and heater/AC doesn't work for weeks...

I'm an old, fat guy that simply doesn't want to be uncomfortable or hungry as I get really old, so I chose NOT to own the latest game station, cell phone, SUV, waste time on facebag or what ever, opting to build as 'Bullet Proof' as possible...
You can call this 'Durable' goods rather than 'Consumer' junk.
My idea of 'Durable' is decades, not a couple years.

When it comes to climate change, I do what benefits me the most without being a big problem for everyone else.
While my solar based power doesn't pollute, it benefits me the most.
The system is in, works well, produced my electrical needs without complaints.
*IF* anyone chooses to choke their future offspring to death on fossil fuels, that's their choice, I don't have children...

If they choose to use things that produce toxic waste, and they themselves, or future offspring die from that toxic waste, it's was entirely their choice.
Even if you don't make the choice, most of 8 Billion people are currently making the choice for you and your decendants.

I'm here for *Maybe* another 20 years, then I'm fertilizer so I don't much care anymore.
All you can do is fight the good fight, but at some point you have to save yourself...

"Hope For The Best, Prepare For The Worst"


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

I'd say that was "honest to goodness insight and perspective" with some gratis wisdom.

Just watched the film "Nell" last night. Good one for thinking about living off the grid and exploring the assumptions of others who don't.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

No one can tell anyone else what they *Should* do because the situation changes with every family, with political, geographic, economic etc changes.

When you see a big tornado every 20 years or so (and many smaller ones in between) it made sense to me to build virtually tornado proof.
The only things that can 'Kill' a poured concrete home is ground water, so big 'French' drains that work as long as there is gravity,
And fire, so I reduced the amount of things that could burn, and installed sprinklers.
Having bed frames, couch frames, cabinet & book case frames are all metal, with a little wood veneer on them for visual astetic reasons.

Termites & carpenter ants aren't an issue, cement isn't food or housing for them.
Mold can't burro into concrete like wood, mold removal can be done with a pressure washer if it formed, and all it takes to keep it from forming is drains and a dehumidifier.

Earth sheltered has reduced heating & cooling to virtually nothing, mother Earth is GREAT insulation.

Since we don't have 'Roof' or exterior of the home to keep up with, that freed up money for the construction. It's all glass in the front (no remodel/maintiance costs) and dirt/grass on the other three sides...
It could have been gardens or solar panels, but my solar field was installed before we built the home, so were the garden beds, so it's a quirk of timing where things are located.

What I like to say is we spent money on 'Foundations' instead of 'Decorations'.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

BINGO!


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

*IF* I had a solar field in Florida right now, I'd be busy securing them so they were still there after the hurricane!

They aren't going to do much for you in the next week, and secured is better than GONE!

When the wind speed gets above 35 MPH mine tilt horizontal, neutral in the wind column.
I don't get tornado warnings a week ahead of time, so that's about the best I can do with panels that articulate...
The 4 corner bolt down panels haven't been an issue in 20 years, but I had issues with 3 or 4 articulated panels, just the way things go when you do it yourself.
The same storm that tore up panels put the entire area out of grid power for 12 or 13 days, took me an hour to replace panels and we never went dark.

I have a sister in Jacksonville, I'm worried about her & hubby.
I wish they would just bolt up & bug out, we have the room...


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## doc- (Jun 26, 2015)

JeepHammer said:


> No one can tell anyone else what they *Should* do because the situation changes with every family, with political, geographic, economic etc changes.
> 
> When you see a big tornado every 20 years or so (and many smaller ones in between) it made sense to me to build virtually tornado proof.
> The only things that can 'Kill' a poured concrete home is ground water, so big 'French' drains that work as long as there is gravity,
> ...


I like the way you think there generally, but two problems-- Tornados don't "blow" a house away. They suck it apart explosively. (Funnel is extremely low air pressure.) Windows are never tornado proof. Secondly, while you've minimized flammable materials, your sprinkler system will guarantee water damage. Sprinklers are installed to protect the insurance company, not the contents or the occupants.

Minor point. You mentioned termites-- They're not the problem. The problem is termites are only attracted to rotted wood. So if you got termites, you had rotted wood already. Carpenter ants are another story.


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## JeepHammer (May 12, 2015)

While I've heard about explosive decompression of homes, it's the 300 MPH winds that do more damage than anything else.
Trees don't explosively decompress, neither do barns.

Water will damage *Some* things, fire kills EVERYTHING.
Since it's poured concrete, it has floor drains.
I can't buy water damage insurance with sprinklers, but with somewhere between $5,000 and $10,000 deductable, I can replace what's damaged with just what I'd loose in an insurance claim. Since the home is paid for, I simply refuse to pay insurance that covers virtually nothing that can go wrong.

Keep in mind, I'm earth sheltered, and in drought years the lawn does turn brown/dry, grass fire is a potential threat... Even with patio covering the approach to the front (exposed) of the house.

AND...
Consider that NO ONE has died in a fire with working sprinklers.
I can replace EVERYTHING but a person/life.

Like I said, I assessed the potential needs/threats for MY SITUATION and compensated for them.

Termites will EAT almost any wood, providing there is a water source close, since wood is food, it doesn't have to be 'Rotted'.
They will travel for a meal while living under ground.
Like things weren't bad enough, we have formosan termites in Indiana imported in mulch, and climate change is making it perfect conditions for them.

Carpenter ants are everywhere here, and they are aggressive.
The only way I know to control termites & carpenter ants are toxic chemicals,
OR,
Build with something they won't eat/chew/destroy.
I don't like toxins, so....


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

JeepHammer said:


> They aren't going to do much for you in the next week, and secured is better than GONE!


You mean they are only an intermittent source of energy, and they don't work all the time?
(Much like wind turbines?)


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> You mean they are only an intermittent source of energy, and they don't work all the time?
> (Much like wind turbines?)


Yeah, after something is torn up by a tornado/hurricane/storm it pretty much doesn't work.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> Yeah, after something is torn up by a tornado/hurricane/storm it pretty much doesn't work.


Meaning there needs to be conventionally fueled power sources kept in reserve as backup.


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## muleskinner2 (Oct 7, 2007)

HDRider said:


> Then why does a very large number of people and many governments cite our battle to reverse climate change as the biggest issue facing the world today?
> 
> To paraphrase what you said, are they simply that stupid?


Yes.


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## GTX63 (Dec 13, 2016)

No, but they think you are.


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## 1948CaseVAI (May 12, 2014)

HDRider said:


> Then why does a very large number of people and many governments cite our battle to reverse climate change as the biggest issue facing the world today?
> 
> To paraphrase what you said, are they simply that stupid?


Most of the sheeple are indeed that stupid. In fact most humans are incredibly stupid and scared much of the time. Governments, being made up of politicians, just want a reason to control people. If the the people of the USA don't learn that "environmentalists", for the most part (not each and every) don't give a hoot about the environment but simply want to destroy capitalism then they no longer deserve liberty.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Meaning there needs to be conventionally fueled power sources kept in reserve as backup.


No........meaning that even power companies have the lights go out in those conditions.
Didn't you experience that during the last bad storm that hit your area?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> No........meaning that even power companies have the lights go out in those conditions.
> Didn't you experience that during the last bad storm that hit your area?


Yes, and I had a *back up* plan just like those who sometimes rely on intermittent sources like wind or solar.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Yes, and I had a *back up* plan just like those who sometimes rely on intermittent sources like wind or solar.


Or Duke Power.

He had a back up plan too.


JeepHammer said:


> The same storm that tore up panels *put the entire area out of grid power for 12 or 13 days,* took me an hour to replace panels and we never went dark.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

farmrbrown said:


> He had a back up plan too.


Internet anecdotes don't have anything to do with my statements.


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## Alice In TX/MO (May 10, 2002)

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/201...eversibly-altered-earth-s-face-3000-years-ago


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

*******
Post deleted.
Saved you some time.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

This one seems to have run it's course.


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