# Coincidence or Darwin's Law at work?



## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

West Virginia lawmakers pass bill allowing people to drink raw milk, then get sick after drinking some during celebration

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...raw-milk-bill-sick-drinking-article-1.2558661


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

I abhor laws meant to protect us from ourselves. With freedom come risks.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Misleading headline, yellow journalism at its best.

_Delegate Scott Cadle, who stayed home sick on Monday, said the culprit is actually an unrelated stomach virus circulating the Capitol. Symptoms include fever, vomiting and diarrhea._
_ "There&#8217;s nobody up there that got sick off that milk," Cadle told the Charleston Gazette-Mail. "It&#8217;s just bad timing, I guess."_


As long as customers are informed of the risks, let them buy and drink raw milk if they want to. Or they might want to buy the fresh milk and pasteurize it at home to support a local farmer and know the exact source of their milk.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

MO_cows said:


> Misleading headline, yellow journalism at its best.
> 
> _Delegate Scott Cadle, who stayed home sick on Monday, said the culprit is actually an unrelated stomach virus circulating the Capitol. Symptoms include fever, vomiting and diarrhea._
> _ "Thereâs nobody up there that got sick off that milk," Cadle told the Charleston Gazette-Mail. "Itâs just bad timing, I guess."_
> ...


Well of course he says that. He helped pass the law. How would he know what caused it?


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

basketti said:


> Well of course he says that. He helped pass the law. How would he know what caused it?


I would imagine that if people, who didn't drink the milk, got sick as well would be a way to determine if he is correct.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> I would imagine that if people, who didn't drink the milk, got sick as well would be a way to determine if he is correct.


If they actually did.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Was raised on raw milk. Drank a gallon a day in the hottest summer months. never got sick from it that I know.

I am sure that there will still be liability to the milk producer if something goes wrong. I don't see much wrong with this bill. How about eating fruit from Peru that has ddt on it?


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## rickpaul (Jan 10, 2013)

..*&#8220;It ain&#8217;t because of the raw milk,&#8221; Cadle said. &#8220;With that many people around and that close quarters and in that air and environment, I just call it a big germ. All that Capitol is is a big germ.&#8221;

Officials with the Bureau for Public Health and Kanawha-Charleston Health Department said Tuesday they hadn&#8217;t received any recent reports about illnesses caused by raw milk.

Several legislators who&#8217;ve been sick with stomach viruses did not sample the raw milk.

&#8220;A lot of people get sick every year we go down there,&#8221; Cadle said. &#8220;They call it the Capitol crud.&#8221;*


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

basketti said:


> Well of course he says that. He helped pass the law. How would he know what caused it?


I don't think anyone definitively knows the cause, but sounds like the bug was going around before the milk sampling took place. And people who didn't touch the milk still got it. 

_"Several legislators who've been sick with stomach viruses did not sample the raw milk. 

'A lot of people get sick every year we go down there', Cadle said. 'They call it the Capitol Crud'."
_

http://www.wvgazettemail.com/news/2...o-celebrate-bill-passage#sthash.Vb0YvhLA.dpuf


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

rickpaul said:


> ..*âIt ainât because of the raw milk,â Cadle said. âWith that many people around and that close quarters and in that air and environment, I just call it a big germ. All that Capitol is is a big germ.â
> 
> Officials with the Bureau for Public Health and Kanawha-Charleston Health Department said Tuesday they hadnât received any recent reports about illnesses caused by raw milk.
> 
> ...



It would be interesting to hear from someone other than Cadle who is the one who gave everyone the milk, admitting he might have broken the law and refuses to disclose where he got it to investigators. Since he fears he might be in trouble, he might not be the most reliable source.


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

don't you drink raw milk from your cows or goats?


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

If the law permits the distribution of raw milk to herd share partners that have signed a statement explaining the risks of illness and/or death, then hauling a jug to the State Capitol and passing it around sounds like he broke the law.

But rather than base the laws and regulations they write on the statements by the raw milk activist group, I think a good old gulp of e coli makes a sound reality check.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

I don't think he broke the law because he gave away the milk, didn't sell it. It would be like invoking liquor laws if I buy a 6-pack and give away 5 beers. Technically that is distributing without a license but nobody enforces that, unless the recipients are minors.


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## haley1 (Aug 15, 2012)

The article states others who did not drink were sick also, I did not see in the article were there was any testing to verify sickness was from milk.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

mreynolds said:


> Was raised on raw milk. Drank a gallon a day in the hottest summer months. never got sick from it that I know.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure that there will still be liability to the milk producer if something goes wrong. I don't see much wrong with this bill. How about eating fruit from Peru that has ddt on it?



I was raised on raw milk too but my grandfathers dairy barn was cleaner than most kitchens and he was very cautious about the milk that came into the house. 

Anything that didn't meet his standard went to the pigs.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

basketti said:


> West Virginia lawmakers pass bill allowing people to drink raw milk, then get sick after drinking some during celebration
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...raw-milk-bill-sick-drinking-article-1.2558661


Why are you against raw milk?


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

MO_cows said:


> As long as customers are informed of the risks, let them buy and drink raw milk if they want to. Or they might want to buy the fresh milk and pasteurize it at home to support a local farmer and know the exact source of their milk.


No to pasteurize...raw has all the goodies. 5 gallons a week...dogs drink it...cats get cream. Raw milk and wheat beer is the secret to my good health and youthful looks!


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## City Bound (Jan 24, 2009)

I cant tell the difference between raw and pasteurized. Drank raw from farms and it was ok but the cream was taken out of it. If I ever ---- milk I like the cream in it. 

Some unscrupulous people are going to sell some filthy milk eventually.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

City Bound said:


> I cant tell the difference between raw and pasteurized. Drank raw from farms and it was ok but the cream was taken out of it. If I ever ---- milk I like the cream in it.
> 
> Some unscrupulous people are going to sell some filthy milk eventually.


You want to take the gallon of milk and mix it with the cream if it is separated...Jersey milk may be upwards of a quart of cream...shake well...quart mason jar in the freezer 15 minutes before eating..nothing better.


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## coolrunnin (Aug 28, 2010)

elevenpoint said:


> You want to take the gallon of milk and mix it with the cream if it is separated...Jersey milk may be upwards of a quart of cream...shake well...quart mason jar in the freezer 15 minutes before eating..nothing better.


25% cream might be a bit ambitious...lol


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

coolrunnin said:


> 25% cream might be a bit ambitious...lol


Agree..not sure what she fed those mini jerseys...always a pint and a half...now Holsteins and not as much or as good a cream.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

I miss my little Jersey. I have nothing against raw milk but I can only think of one place I would trust as much as my own and that would be my local Hutterite colony. Their facility is super clean, the cattle carefully monitored and they drink from the save tank.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Farmerga said:


> I abhor laws meant to protect us from ourselves. With freedom come risks.


We should repeal the seatbelt law and just let Darwinism take it's course. 
Oh, but most people's kitchens I don't trust. I once ate at someone's home, later I found raw meat in their veggie bin. *ugh*


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## Creamers (Aug 3, 2010)

This story is a work of fiction. It has no truth in any capacity.

On Sunday, many days before the media dishonestly broke this story, I received some information that a member of the House brought raw milk to the Floor to offer to those present to drink.

It was said suggested by those who had not been supportive of the Raw Milk Herdshare bill on that date that, when some members of the House of Delegates and staff were sick afterward, the illnesses could have been be due to the raw milk given out they chose to drink.The issue was, from the start, many were sick that had not consumed the raw milk on the day it was brought with the same symptoms at the same time.

Norovirus has been confirmed to be making the rounds, and it almost certainly to blame. Members of the legislature have confirmed this is common at this time of the year, and that before the milk was brought, folks were already beginning to catch the virus.So why, when a known virus with easy to recognize symptoms and common this time of year is circulating to many at the capitol, blame raw milk? Because the government has done one thing right: they have accomplished building tremendous fear and hysteria around real food.

All direct and local sources Iâve spoken to have confirmed this story of raw milk illness to be an unfounded rumor. It is a tale without merit. Further, to date, no medical professional has come forward with evidence to confirm ( this is easy to prove from stool and blood culture/testing) that any illness was connected to food borne illness of any kind, let alone related to contaminated milk. Actually, one delegateâs doctor is reported to have confirmed to that legislator that raw milk was not related.Every single person who has been ill has dispelled the rumor. In a world concerned with honesty, not another word would have been said. Yet, Journalists have avoided the truth in order to sensationalize a story that doesnât exist. They have opted to not interview those who have been confirmed ill at the Capitol that not only did not drink milk, were never even around milk. American Journalism at its finest.This attempt to damage farmers and local foods is sickening, but it shows what a warped and disconnected society we have become.Too few reading these media reports are bothering to fact check. We, the people, are as much to blame. We have stopped caring about the truth, friends.

Given the radical opposition from the DHHR, Local Health Departments and FDA toward the Herdshare bill, any person who ever becomes ill and has also drank raw milk in their lifetime will find the milk is blamed unjustly. That is largely at the root of the statistics the CDC collects on raw milk, I suspect, as is.



While it has been disheartening to see many folks willing to jump to assume the milk was the culprit during âstomach fluâ season in a crowded place of government business, given the decades of propaganda behind this issue, I can only sigh and think, âOf course.â

The Herdshare law does expressly say milk cannot be given out second hand, so it is worth noting, the Herdshare law passing was not involved in the delegate bringing real milk to give out on the House floor. It is not legal in West Virginia for a producer of milk to give it out, sell it or make it available. It is not legal for a Grade A dairy to sell or make raw milk available. It it not directly illegal, from my lay personâs understanding of the rules and law for a non-producer to accept the milk, however, and then give the milk out.

Real Milk, like undercooked eggs, raw oysters, sushi, cantaloupe and lettuce, can become contaminated. Any food, cooked or uncooked, can. There is a low level of risk with food in general; the risk in consuming raw milk is actually less than in some other whole, raw foods. Those seeking out herdshares understand this. It is a personal choice, and many millions of people decide real milk is the right choice for their family, and they use it daily without any concern or issue.

Thankfully, the risk with real milk is minimal, though not non existent, properly handled real foods, including fresh milk, are safe.

Those seeking to damage farmers with this dishonest story do not represent an informed people. 

We seem to have turned into a Nation that does not care for the truth. I guess the truth is too boring for the fast paced, exciting lives we want to live (in our heads, mostly) these days. . .

I think I can remember a day where it was different; perhaps, that is simply wishful thinking. I will not report it as fact. I admit I cannot be sure.

As we co-exist these days with folks like Kim Kardshian, It is no wonder what is real is repugnant to society. If we didnât love outlandish, foolish dishonesty, America would not love reality television, which is anything but real. Those folks who star in reality shows would just be more folks in sweat pants at Wal*mart.

The Outrageous is fashionable, and too often, the facts arenât fun or fabulous or horrible enough to keep up with rumors, partial truths or outright lies. This is a world where even keeping a butt, ribs or nose God gave you is considered unacceptable, so I am not surprised the media caters to what we have become. What choice have we, as a people, provided?

I am just not yet willing to throw in the towel here in West Virginia with seven years of a very honest and worthwhile endeavoring in this issue and accept this mess while âsitting down,â though.

We are a Nation that loves a Lie. We are who is at fault with rumors become news. If the rumor didnât concern something we care deeply about, we would not pause to consider how much merit this story had. We might even share it.

We prove in everything we do that we are okay with lies being presented to us as truth. We love this and expect it in everything we read, see, hear and do. We expect our own bodies, lives and children to live up to these fictional expectations. We are works more works fiction than we are of truth.

I cannot be surprised as I watch this (thus far) merit-less tale about milk making folks sick at the capitol be flung across the entire countryâs media when there has yet to be single shred of evidence presented, where with the current information it was only notable enough to be on the Onion (as a work of satire), when I know this story is exactly what the people in American love to hear. It would not exist otherwise.

And You are responsible. And I am responsible.

A truthful headline like: âAlmost everyone at the West Virginia Capitol has norovirus this week,â does not read nearly so engaging as, âLegislators who support raw milk drink it and get sick,â and so the Media goes with the latter because they know Us better than we like to admit.

A Rumor is News in America. It is news whether it concerns a Presidential candidate, an Alleged Rapist, Farmers or Food. Nothing is off limits.

What happened to Journalism? It became what we demanded.

Sensational Rumors, at this point, have been reported a fact or near fact; That is all.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Been drinking it for years. Many of us are here because of it through ancestors who couldn't nurse before formula. Raw milk is harmless if processed cleanly.


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## haypoint (Oct 4, 2006)

Some people believe that the Health Departments and news media are conspiring to smear the raw milk fans.
Not so.
Here is a recent outbreak that you never heard about. It is on of many. I had a thread alerting folks each time a group of people were sickened by raw milk. I even cautioned people, "don't read if you don't want to know". But even when faced with the facts, those that falsely believe raw milk is both better for you and 100% safe, deny it.

" California officials say the case count in the _E. coli_ outbreak linked to unpasteurized raw milk from an organic dairy in Fresno is increasing, but they aren't saying much else. As of Monday, 22 Feb 2016, 10 people have been confirmed with "closely related strains of Shiga-toxin producing _E. coli_ O157:H7," according to a spokesman for the California Department of Public Health (CDPH). All of the illnesses occurred in January 2016. Additional outbreak victims could still be identified.

6 of the sick people reported drinking unpasteurized raw milk from Organic Pastures Dairy Co., according to the CDPH. It is not known if the other 4 patients drank raw milk from Organic Pastures. The state health department is continuing to investigate the outbreak, but will not provide specific details.

"The environmental investigation is ongoing. CDPH has collected a large number of samples including feces, water and raw milk, which are still undergoing evaluation at the department's Food and Drug Laboratory Branch," the CDPH spokesman said via email. When they are available, the department will not release them until the investigation is finished, the CDPH spokesman said Tuesday, 23 Feb 2016. The department has not published any statements about the outbreak or investigation.

"CDPH does not routinely post in-process updates on its active investigations," the department's spokesman said via email. "If the public needs to be alerted about an adulterated food, CDPH will issue a Health Advisory warning consumers of the food that should be avoided.

"In this case, the outbreak was identified and the voluntary recall issued by the firm after the shelf-life of the product had expired.
Since no product was believed to remain in the marketplace, no health alert was issued."

Clearly, they aren't out to "get" the raw milk folks. There was a bunch of sick people. They drank raw milk and got sick. The milk is gone, people recovered, move along.

However if you are open minded and want to learn more: http://promedmail.org/post/20141224.3051804

If you are really, really serious about learning that there aren't any health benefits to raw milk over pasteurized milk, read this:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095671351200535X


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Again. You weren't there. You have no idea how the raw milk was processed. Raw milk from goats has far more benefits than pasteurized milk. And the milk itself is 100% safe if processed cleanly. It's the foreign contents that contaminate milk. We used a closed air system and our milk is emediatly chilled. Like I say. If you are doing your own milk and run a clean ship there are zero worries. There are risks getting it from large farms because it could get contaminated. All the reports against it blame the milk when Infact its the process at which it was collected that is the culprit.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

And there are far more outbreaks of food born disease like ecoli from your fresh produce section at your grocery store than raw milk. That's a proven fact.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

http://www.naturalnews.com/041039_raw_milk_FDA_unpasteurized.html#


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

Heritagefarm said:


> We should repeal the seatbelt law and just let Darwinism take it's course.
> Oh, but most people's kitchens I don't trust. I once ate at someone's home, later I found raw meat in their veggie bin. *ugh*


 Yes. I never get in a car without putting a seatbelt on, but, can't stand the thought of the government telling me that I must. 

If you don't trust most people's kitchen, don't eat their food.


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Some people believe that the Health Departments and news media are conspiring to smear the raw milk fans.
> Not so.
> Here is a recent outbreak that you never heard about. It is on of many. I had a thread alerting folks each time a group of people were sickened by raw milk. I even cautioned people, "don't read if you don't want to know". But even when faced with the facts, those that falsely believe raw milk is both better for you and 100% safe, deny it.
> 
> ...


More people got sick from the last round of contaminated veggies. I don't hear anybody calling for a ban on selling raw produce. There was the TexMex chain that sickened people all over the country. Raw milk distribution will be local and small scale. It's not like they are serving raw milk in the school lunch program.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

I simply do not understand the visceral hatred of the thought of other people drinking raw milk. It is not like we are going to send a group of Amish men to hold you down and pour raw milk down your throat. There will be pasteurized milk, in your dairy case, no matter if I buy raw milk from the farmer down the road, or, not.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

haypoint said:


> Some people believe that the Health Departments and news media are conspiring to smear the raw milk fans.
> Not so.
> Here is a recent outbreak that you never heard about. It is on of many. I had a thread alerting folks each time a group of people were sickened by raw milk. I even cautioned people, "don't read if you don't want to know". But even when faced with the facts, those that falsely believe raw milk is both better for you and 100% safe, deny it.
> 
> ...


Your glorified government departments do nothing to help the American people aside from policing that which needs no policing. Only in America do we regularly throw people in prison for trying to grow their own food and sell unprocessed milk. (Well, Canada as well.) Those organizations are in fact out to get raw milk people and small producers. What's a bigger threat to your mega companies than small people getting a hold of more individual powers? They might lose some profits. Everything is about the bottom dollar, and the propaganda spread by the FDA and other government agencies spreads to easily susceptible people like you.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Heritagefarm said:


> We should repeal the seatbelt law and just let Darwinism take it's course.
> Oh, but most people's kitchens I don't trust. I once ate at someone's home, later I found raw meat in their veggie bin. *ugh*


 I'd bet a large percentage of those on this site now grew up when there were no seat belts in cars


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> I simply do not understand the visceral hatred of the thought of other people drinking raw milk. It is not like we are going to send a group of Amish men to hold you down and pour raw milk down your throat. There will be pasteurized milk, in your dairy case, no matter if I buy raw milk from the farmer down the road, or, not.


I could not care any less if people drink raw milk. What amuses me is that so many people attribute magical properties to it that simply don't exist. But if they or you want to risk your health to indulge fantasies, more power to you. I just hope you're well insured so if you (collective raw milk drinking you) do get a galloping case of e. Coli, my tax dollars don't have to be spent on your mythical beliefs. I think that's fair. :grin:


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I'd bet a large percentage of those on this site now grew up when there were no seat belts in cars



Yes and everyone still alive from that era survived !


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

basketti said:


> I could not care any less if people drink raw milk. What amuses me is that so many people attribute magical properties to it that simply don't exist. But if they or you want to risk your health to indulge fantasies, more power to you. I just hope you're well insured so if you (collective raw milk drinking you) do get a galloping case of e. Coli, my tax dollars don't have to be spent on your mythical beliefs. I think that's fair. :grin:


 If people want to drink pure bleach, and it harms no one else in the process, they should be able to do so. Magical properties not withstanding. For the record, I would only drink raw milk if I raised and milked the cow/goat/sheep/etc. myself.


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

www.chipotle.com.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Creamers said:


> This story is a work of fiction. It has no truth in any capacity.
> 
> On Sunday, many days before the media dishonestly broke this story, I received some information that a member of the House brought raw milk to the Floor to offer to those present to drink.
> 
> ...


Do you have any links or sources backing your assertions up? Because as a WV raw milk producer, you can see why people might think you could possibly be a wee bit biased?

If it is in fact, true that Rep. Cadle won't give the name of the producer or a sample of the milk to investigators, that looks a little bit suspicious and obstructive.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Vahomesteaders said:


> And there are far more outbreaks of food born disease like ecoli from your fresh produce section at your grocery store than raw milk. *That's a proven fact*.


Did you stop to consider that's only because raw milk is illegal in most states?
That's a proven fact too



> http://www.naturalnews.com/041039_ra...teurized.html#


That's one of the few sources less reliable than INFOWARS


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Did you stop to consider that's only because raw milk is illegal in most states?
> That's a proven fact too
> 
> 
> That's one of the few sources less reliable than INFOWARS


Raw milk is legal in all 50 states for personal use. And many allow herdshares. 

The article in posted uses dates names and sources. All obtainable through Google. But it doesn't fit your narrative so of course it's bogus.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Might want to check the raw milk by state regs. Many allow raw milk only a handful don't. And the ones that don't still have easily obtainable exceptions like goats only or even a doctors note. Lol

http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/raw-milk-nation-interactive-map/


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Vahomesteaders said:


> Raw milk is legal in all 50 states for personal use. And many allow herdshares.
> 
> The article in posted uses dates names and sources. All obtainable through Google. But it doesn't fit your narrative so of course it's bogus.


I don't care what they said in the article
The source as a whole is prone to lies, and the article is largely rhetoric and few real facts

You cannot compare illness caused from raw milk to vegetables by the number of incidents alone.

You know there is only a tiny percentage of people who drink it while many millions have vegetables every day. 

The fact it's legal for "personal use" really means very little unless everyone owns a cow.

Did you really read the last source you posted?



> The sale of raw *pet milk* is legal in just about every state if the producer has a commercial feed license or its equivalent or has otherwise fulfilled state requirements to sell pet milk.
> 
> Most states, however, will not issue commercial feed licenses for the sale of raw pet milk. The chart shows only those states where it is known that raw milk producers have received permits or otherwise are in compliance with the law.


It also list 27 states that either allow "herdshare" only, or it is illegal altogether for human consumption Only 11 allow sales in normal retail stores

The end result remains that almost no one drinks raw milk compared to the number that consume produce


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Farmerga said:


> I abhor laws meant to protect us from ourselves. With freedom come risks.


I agree to a point but I'm fond of the idea that commercial kitchens have to maintain a certain level of refrigeration and sanitation and feel much the same way about commercial dairies.


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Well there is plenty of data or there. Here are a few. 

http://farmandranchfreedom.org/raw-milk-is-not-high-risk-food/

Consumption rates:

How many people drink raw milk? According to a CDC survey, an average of 3% of the population has drunk raw milk within the last 7 days. (Tab 2 â chart of raw milk consumption.) That translates to more than 9 million raw milk consumers. So, out of 9+ million consumers, approximately 112 become sick each year allegedly from raw milk nationwide, or 0.001%.

National data on foodborne illnesses:

Nationwide, there were 1,414 illnesses, 80 hospitalizations, and 0 deaths attributed to raw milk between 1998 and 2010. The CDC does not indicate how many of these illnesses were attributed to raw milk that came from dairies that were not licensed to sell raw milk to consumers.Dairies that are producing milk intended for pasteurization are not held to the same standards as Grade A Raw for Retail dairies, yet consumers often buy milk from these conventional dairies illegally. This âpre-pasteurization milkâ poses a higher risk, as shown by the significantly higher incidence of positive pathogen tests from their bulk tanks. Thus, these numbers significantly overestimate the risk posed by raw milk from licensed, regulated dairies.

To put these numbers in context, there were 301,076 illnesses, 10,317 hospitalizations, and 223 deaths reported to the CDC in that time period from all foods. (See-wwwn.cdc.gov/foodborneoutbreaks) Consider the illnesses attributed to other foods:

Fruit salad: 1,323 illnesses, 29 hospitalizations, and 1 deathTuna: 1,355 illnesses, 36 hospitalizations, and 3 deaths-(not-including raw tuna or sushi)Deli meats: 1,345 illnesses, 104 hospitalizations, and 19 deathsPizza: 1,614 illnesses, 20 hospitalizations, and 3 deaths

The numbers of illnesses attributed to fruit salad, tuna, pizza, and deli meat are similar to those attributed to raw milk during this time period â with the exception that, unlike these foods, raw milk has not caused any deaths.-(Note: the numbers for deli meats do-not-include sandwiches, which have caused many more illnesses.)-While more people may consume these foods occasionally, few people consume these foods day-in and day-out, in contrast to raw milk.



And this data is up to 2012. It is estimated that raw milk consumption has gone up as much as 22% in the last 2 years as more people are switching to raw healthy diets.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

Bring on the raw milk..butter..eggs...one even made ice cream...I make ice cream from raw everything I can get my hands on..have you seen the ingredients in the store bought anything?...I'll take raw anyday.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Vahomesteaders said:


> Well there is plenty of data or there. Here are a few.
> 
> http://farmandranchfreedom.org/raw-milk-is-not-high-risk-food/
> 
> ...


You're just repeating yourself. Bearfootfarm already responded logically and blew your argument away.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

basketti said:


> You're just repeating yourself. Bearfootfarm already responded logically and blew your argument away.


Logically? Raw in any food is better. Prove it is not.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

elevenpoint said:


> Logically? Raw in any food is better. Prove it is not.


You're the one making wild claims so the onus is on you to prove your assertion. 

Knock yourself out, Sparky.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

basketti said:


> You're the one making wild claims so the onus is on you to prove your assertion.
> 
> Knock yourself out, Sparky.


Do you have dogs?


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

basketti said:


> You're just repeating yourself. Bearfootfarm already responded logically and blew your argument away.


No he did not. He stated an unproven opinion on how few drink it. I gave cdc numbers that go against what he said. And those of just the numbers of those polled. There are millions more who have back yard herds who drink it and share it as well. I mean good grief. I have lived it. Drank it all my life. My entire family on both sides 4 generations back drank it. No problems ever. My amish neighbors have been selling it for 24 years on herdshares. They have had thousands and thousands of customers. Not one single sickness. That's called first hand, real world experience. You likely never have so you have no experience or first hand dealings in the area. You take other people's word for it. Only folks of your persuasion claim to be experts at something you yourself have no experience at nor likely ever tried for an extended period of time. You push the same fearful talking points. And I'm not saying people cat get sick. They can. But it is due to improper care. And is far less prevalent than you or the govt says.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

wr said:


> I agree to a point but I'm fond of the idea that commercial kitchens have to maintain a certain level of refrigeration and sanitation and feel much the same way about commercial dairies.


 But, you see, those are not laws meant to protect us from ourselves, but, to protect others.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Vahomesteaders said:


> No he did not. *He stated an unproven opinion on how few drink it. * I gave cdc numbers that go against what he said. And those of just the numbers of those polled. There are millions more who have back yard herds who drink it and share it as well. I mean good grief. I have lived it. Drank it all my life. My entire family on both sides 4 generations back drank it. No problems ever. My amish neighbors have been selling it for 24 years on herdshares. They have had thousands and thousands of customers. Not one single sickness. That's called first hand, real world experience. You likely never have so you have no experience or first hand dealings in the area. You take other people's word for it. Only folks of your persuasion claim to be experts at something you yourself have no experience at nor likely ever tried for an extended period of time. You push the same fearful talking points. And I'm not saying people cat get sick. They can. But it is due to improper care. And is far less prevalent than you or the govt says.


Your source stated:

Consumption rates:



> How many people drink raw milk? According to a CDC survey, an average of *3%* of the population has drunk raw milk within the last 7 days.


You proved my statement yourself, and posting propaganda from biased organizations with an agenda won't change reality

You're still trying to compare based on the *number of incidents* alone, while disregarding the small number that drink raw milk compared to the vast majority those who eat produce that can be bought almost anywhere.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

Vahomesteaders said:


> Might want to check the raw milk by state regs. Many allow raw milk only a handful don't. And the ones that don't still have easily obtainable exceptions like goats only or even a doctors note. Lol
> 
> http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/raw-milk-nation-interactive-map/


"This here be my doctor's note goat."


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## Vahomesteaders (Jun 4, 2014)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Your source stated:
> 
> Consumption rates:
> 
> ...


Those numbers have risen since. And believe me. Real data numbers prove it much higher. Those same people likely grow or buy fresh vegetables straight from the farm or their own farm. So by all accounts drinking raw milk and eating raw veggies off the farm should have sickened or killed half of them. It's just not so. I have never met anyone who got sick from raw milk. Now we do goats milk. Sometimes raw cows milk from the amish when our goats are being dried off. But I don't believe there is much difference. Though some states allow raw goats milk and not raw cows milk. Not sure why. Point is those numbers are very skewed. And we know all govt numbers tend to be very low compared to real numbers when it doesn't fit their agenda. Like real unemployment numbers and such.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Vahomesteaders said:


> Those numbers have risen since. And believe me. Real data numbers prove it much higher..


Then where are the real data numbers?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

elevenpoint said:


> Logically? Raw in any food is better. Prove it is not.


Eat a big helping of fresh raw Chitterlings then tell us how much "better" it is


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Vahomesteaders said:


> Those numbers have risen since. And believe me. Real data numbers prove it much higher. Those same people likely grow or buy fresh vegetables straight from the farm or their own farm. So by all accounts drinking raw milk and eating raw veggies off the farm should have sickened or killed half of them. It's just not so. I have never met anyone who got sick from raw milk. Now we do goats milk. Sometimes raw cows milk from the amish when our goats are being dried off. But I don't believe there is much difference. Though some states allow raw goats milk and not raw cows milk. Not sure why. Point is those numbers are very skewed. And we know all govt numbers tend to be very low compared to real numbers when it doesn't fit their agenda. Like real unemployment numbers and such.


Repeating the hype doesn't change the reality.

Your source said 3%.

If it's not accurate you shouldn't have used it.

No matter how much you spin things, the *vast majority* of people never drink raw milk, while everyone eats vegetables


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Farmerga said:


> But, you see, those are not laws meant to protect us from ourselves, but, to protect others.


I have previously stated that I have grown up drinking raw milk as well but I believe if it's going to be sold for public consumption, it still comes back to a certain level of sanitation and storage. 

Every time I open this thread I'm reminded of a discussion on one of our livestock forums several years ago. 

They were new to milking and were selling their product with most of the discussion focusing on an incident where some feces had made it's way into the pail of milk. They held the the belief that since they'd run the milk through cheese cloth and removed the particles, it was perfectly safe for human consumption.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

wr said:


> I have previously stated that I have grown up drinking raw milk as well but I believe if it's going to be sold for public consumption, it still comes back to a certain level of sanitation and storage.
> 
> Every time I open this thread I'm reminded of a discussion on one of our livestock forums several years ago.
> 
> They were new to milking and were selling their product with most of the discussion focusing on an incident where some feces had made it's way into the pail of milk. They held the the belief that since they'd run the milk through cheese cloth and removed the particles, it was perfectly safe for human consumption.


 Where I have a problem are laws that tell me that I can't do something such as drive w/o a seat belt, ride a motor cycle w/o a helmet, or drink raw milk. I have no problems with laws that require certain standards for seatbelts, helmets, or, raw milk prior to being sold.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

Farmerga said:


> Where I have a problem are laws that tell me that I can't do something such as drive w/o a seat belt, ride a motor cycle w/o a helmet, or drink raw milk. I have no problems with laws that require certain standards for seatbelts, helmets, or, raw milk prior to being sold.


For children too?


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## HDRider (Jul 21, 2011)

Might the laws against raw milk be a way that large dairy companies erect a barrier against small farmers?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

HDRider said:


> Might the laws against raw milk be a way that large dairy companies erect a barrier against small farmers?


Haven't the laws against raw milk been in place for some time?


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Dairies could sell raw milk and not have the expense of processing.
I suspect the shelf life wouldn't be as long


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

HDRider said:


> Might the laws against raw milk be a way that large dairy companies erect a barrier against small farmers?


I think it's more the do-gooders trying to save us all.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

MO_cows said:


> I think it's more the do-gooders trying to save us all.


Do you consider the institution of Public Health, do-gooders trying to save us all? 

Some of what Those do-gooders have accomplished in modern times:

Vaccination to reduce epidemic diseases
Eradication of smallpox
Improved motor vehicle safety
Safer workplaces
Control of infectious diseases
Decline in death from cardiovascular disease
Improvements in maternal and child health
Family planning
Fluoridation of drinking water
Reductions in prevalence of tobacco use

I'm happy with the do gooders.

http://sphweb.bumc.bu.edu/otlt/mph-modules/ph/publichealthhistory/publichealthhistory_print.html


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## MO_cows (Aug 14, 2010)

Once upon a time, everybody drank raw milk and our knowledge of the potential hazards was primitive. So banning its sale once pasteurization became feasible, saved a lot of misery. Back then it made sense.

Fast forward to today when the scientific knowledge of possible contaminants is only a click away and so many of the things we ingest are over processed and far from natural, if informed people want to buy a herdshare and buy raw milk, it is too heavy handed to maintain the ban.


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## Heritagefarm (Feb 21, 2010)

MO_cows said:


> Once upon a time, everybody drank raw milk and our knowledge of the potential hazards was primitive. So banning its sale once pasteurization became feasible, saved a lot of misery. Back then it made sense.
> 
> Fast forward to today when the scientific knowledge of possible contaminants is only a click away and so many of the things we ingest are over processed and far from natural, if informed people want to buy a herdshare and buy raw milk, it is too heavy handed to maintain the ban.


Eating a twinkie is hazardous, in my opinion more hazardous than drinking raw milk. I've drank plenty of the stuff, but it's mostly been mine. But I'm a germaphobe, and would throw out an entire batch of milk if I saw a single floating fleck. The twinkie is hazardous in the long term, through obesity, diabetes, etc, while the raw milk may have bacteria.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

HDRider said:


> Might the laws against raw milk be a way that large dairy companies erect a barrier against small farmers?



It could certainly be seen as such but in my opinion it's a sector that governments find easier to ban than to try and establish concise regulations. 

There are people who prefer raw milk and they will always find ways to bypass the ban and in my opinion, the numbers are sufficient enough to establish a solid set of guidelines, just as they did for organic farms. 

As it stands now, anyone with a few goats or dairy cattle can find ways to sell their product (buy a brand new pail & lid and the milk is free, herd shares, etc) but not every farm meets the same standard. 

Regulations on batch testing, storage temperature, milking area sanitation and proper packaging with expiry dates would make the product safer, move out of the dark corner and likely broaden markets.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

basketti said:


> For children too?


 In certain circumstances. I wouldn't want the schools, or, others feeding my child something that I didn't approve of. Some of the laws and regulation concerning safety are silly overkill.


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## Farmerga (May 6, 2010)

With freedom comes risk. We should be free to risk. If I want to drive w/o a seatbelt, I should be allowed to assume that risk. If I want to ingest something, that some see as harmful, I should be allowed that risk. The only limit to this freedom should be, as the saying goes, "your freedom ends at the end of my nose". As long as the act is not directly harmful to others, we should be free to do what we wish. 

For the record, I never get into a car without a wearing a seatbelt. I don't do drugs, I rarely drink raw milk, I can't see the scenario where I would, willingly, climb onto a motorcycle, I don't attend a snake handling church, but, I would not be in support of any law which would limit others from doing those things, as long as the risk is theirs alone.


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## no really (Aug 7, 2013)

I grew up on raw milk, cow and goat, of course it came from family animals. When I went to college I tried pasteurized milk, it didn't agree with my digestion at all. When I could get raw I would, it was a wonderful treat!!!


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## Miss Kay (Mar 31, 2012)

Raw milk is not a black or white issue. To read these posts you'd think it was either a cure all or a poison. Any person in their right mind would make sure the raw milk came from healthy cows and collected properly otherwise you are just asking for trouble. And, like most real foods raised locally using safe wholesome methods I do think it is better for me. So, like my great grandparents and all those who came before me I raise my own raw milk and make my own butter and cheese but I don't stop there. I raise my own vegetables and can them in my own kitchen (gasp, yes I know. How on earth are we still alive). Not only that but we raise and kill our own chickens and raise our own beef. We do this partly because we enjoy it but also because we can't find real food around here. I don't want raw milk out of the pale with flies and dust gathered by some Amish man without a frig. And, I don't want a fresh salad from greens raised with pesticides and gathered by Mexicans who didn't wash their hands before shipping it thousands of miles. You guys go ahead and back big government while they keep telling the world how dangerous us little farmers are and we homesteaders will keep raising strong kids on real food while teaching them responsibility and work ethic. You city folks have made kids so afraid of the world that they go around with hand sanitizer in their pockets and afraid to get out of the car while they live their life in front of a screen. It's a sad day in America if you ask me and I'm so glad I'm old and not starting out in this atmosphere of fear. But, fear on if you must but stop trying to tell me what I can eat or can't eat. You just keep buying processed fake food and leave me to enjoy this big glass of raw golden Guernsey milk!


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Miss Kay said:


> Raw milk is not a black or white issue. To read these posts you'd think it was either a cure all or a poison. Any person in their right mind would make sure the raw milk came from healthy cows and collected properly otherwise you are just asking for trouble. And, like most real foods raised locally using safe wholesome methods I do think it is better for me. So, like my great grandparents and all those who came before me I raise my own raw milk and make my own butter and cheese but I don't stop there. I raise my own vegetables and can them in my own kitchen (gasp, yes I know. How on earth are we still alive). Not only that but we raise and kill our own chickens and raise our own beef. We do this partly because we enjoy it but also because we can't find real food around here. I don't want raw milk out of the pale with flies and dust gathered by some Amish man without a frig. And, I don't want a fresh salad from greens raised with pesticides and gathered by Mexicans who didn't wash their hands before shipping it thousands of miles. You guys go ahead and back big government while they keep telling the world how dangerous us little farmers are and we homesteaders will keep raising strong kids on real food while teaching them responsibility and work ethic. You city folks have made kids so afraid of the world that they go around with hand sanitizer in their pockets and afraid to get out of the car while they live their life in front of a screen. It's a sad day in America if you ask me and I'm so glad I'm old and not starting out in this atmosphere of fear. But, fear on if you must but stop trying to tell me what I can eat or can't eat. You just keep buying processed fake food and leave me to enjoy this big glass of raw golden Guernsey milk!


I don't have a problem with raw milk from my own site either but would it not be reasonable to expect a certain amount of regulation for those who would like to sell it commercially?

I'm not of the opinion that anyone is saying that someone should not consume raw milk from their own cows but it becomes a whole different scenario when people start selling for public consumption.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

basketti said:


> Do you consider the institution of Public Health, do-gooders trying to save us all?
> 
> Some of what Those do-gooders have accomplished in modern times:
> 
> ...


Good for them.
I'll take my raw milk..butter..cream..and with raw eggs make ice cream with wild blackberries picked off my farm.
Then lets see someone do something about it.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

elevenpoint said:


> Good for them.
> I'll take my raw milk..butter..cream..and with raw eggs make ice cream with wild blackberries picked off my farm.
> Then lets see someone do something about it.


No one was talking about you making ice cream but I'm happy you found a way to try and focus attention on yourself. :kiss:


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

basketti said:


> No one was talking about you making ice cream but I'm happy you found a way to try and focus attention on yourself. :kiss:


Seems about you.
What business do you have spouting off about what any person eats or drinks?
Raw milk...cream..butter..cheese..yogurt.
Venison..turkey..rabbit..squirrel..fish from a stream.
Problem with fresh raw vegetables too?


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

elevenpoint said:


> Seems about you.
> What business do you have spouting off about what any person eats or drinks?
> Raw milk...cream..butter..cheese..yogurt.
> Venison..turkey..rabbit..squirrel..fish from a stream.
> Problem with fresh raw vegetables too?


Maybe you should clean the grease off your glasses. I've already said I don't care what people drink.

More bragging about you? Going to start telling us hunting and fishing stories? Seems like you have some insecurities to compensate for.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

basketti said:


> Maybe you should clean the grease off your glasses. I've already said I don't care what people drink.
> 
> More bragging about you? Going to start telling us hunting and fishing stories? Seems like you have some insecurities to compensate for.


I have many hunting and fishing stories...a lifetime.
I don't believe I have insecurities but you are more than welcome to do an analysis.
I am not worthy of anything...but I do understand you cannot plant the seeds of discontent in the heart of a grateful man.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

elevenpoint said:


> I have many hunting and fishing stories...a lifetime.
> I don't believe I have insecurities but you are more than welcome to do an analysis.
> I am not worthy of anything...but I do understand you cannot plant the seeds of discontent in the heart of a grateful man.


Might want to start your own thread then...you seem to be disoriented and wandering a bit. I think your ice cream is calling....


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

basketti said:


> Might want to start your own thread then...you seem to be disoriented and wandering a bit. I think your ice cream is calling....


Yes I am.
The thick sliced pork howl...fried potatoes..farm eggs...with ice cold raw milk for dinner has me a bit off center.


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## Lisa in WA (Oct 11, 2004)

elevenpoint said:


> Yes I am.
> The thick sliced pork howl...fried potatoes..farm eggs...with ice cold raw milk for dinner has me a bit off center.


Darned good thing you're here to tell us all about it. Seeing as no one else here raises their own food or cooks.


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## Elevenpoint (Nov 17, 2009)

basketti said:


> Darned good thing you're here to tell us all about it. Seeing as no one else here raises their own food or cooks.


Makes you wonder now don't it?


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