# Feeding Corn???



## K Epp (Jan 7, 2013)

I had a friend who has chickens (in a coop), turkeys and goats tell me that she is going to start feeding all her animals nothing, but cracked corn and hay. Whats your opinion on that?

I feed a mix of 22% layer pellets and cracked corn to the birds ( chickens, ducks and turkeys) goats get feed and all the hay they want. They all free range during the day. 

I know that corn is cheaper, but don't they need more?


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## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

I wouldn't think it would be too good for the birds. I give mine a layer mash from a local mill and cracked corn as a treat. Right now CC is around $7 for 50lb, the layer mash is $10.25 for 50lb. $3 per 50 pounds is a small price to pay to have healthy and productive hens in my opinion.


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## MoonShadows (Jan 11, 2014)

Cracked corn and hay will not provide sufficient nutrients for her chickens. And, if she feeds them a lot of cracked corn during the hot months, she runs the risk of killing them. Corn raises a chicken's metabolism. That is why it is good for them in the cold months and bad for them in the hot months. Despite what most people think, especially many new chicken owners, chickens are much better adapted to cold than heat. You run more of a risk losing chickens to heat than cold.


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## JasoninMN (Feb 24, 2006)

They will survive fine but her birds production will drop.


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## arnie (Apr 26, 2012)

by free rangeing your chickens if they have enough area can find greens and bugs soil and gravel enough to balance there diet they are likely to do ok but not so in confinement . chickens have been raised on this type of diet for generations of course you can't expect them to lay as well on this diet .depending on the quality of the hay the grain mixture or consentrated feed i used to fill in the gaps and should be adjusted as needed to the production expected from the livestock ; a highproduceing dairy goat will be boney and undernourished on a diet that would make a meat type or weather goat fat


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## grandma12703 (Jan 13, 2011)

We feed cracked corn as the only grain and let our birds free range. They are healthy and doing well. I wouldn't try it in confinement either.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Feeding cracked corn only to cooped chickens is a recipe for poor production and unthrifty chickens.


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## K Epp (Jan 7, 2013)

I added the corn and raised the protein this winter yo get them over molt. In the summer I was feeding 16%. Should I stick with the 22% and cut the corn when the weather warms up or go back to the 16%? 

She said she could get corn by the barrel for $20.


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## Sumatra (Dec 5, 2013)

Many folks did that not too long ago. Cornmeal as chick starter, and cracked corn all the time after that. It wasn't until grain could be harvested by machines on huge commercial farms, did people start giving other things and regulating protein to the number, adding minerals, etc.

I do agree that their production will likely drop, but they should do fine.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

I think it is a bad idea. 

I think the birds may survive, but not thrive. Any kind of pressure could put them down. Production will drop drastically. 

I understand the desire to take advantage of those prices, but I do not think that is how to do it.


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## Jennifer L. (May 10, 2002)

You two should flip your diets: Your birds would do well on corn only if they free range and have access to other foods that way. Her birds need the complete feed because they can get nothing else. Her birds aren't going to do well on the long term with this diet. She can get away with it for awhile, but not forever.


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## krochetnkat (Dec 19, 2013)

My girls are eating a mix of layer and cracked corn (and of course, left overs) right now due to the winter, with free access to oyster shells and I ALWAYS keep a flock block in the coop because I've heard it helps maintain weight in the winter (not to mention, the way this winter has been, going out there everyday has been difficult). In the summer, they have access to layer feed, oyster shells, although they tend to eat more outside and less layer. Why, may I ask, is she wanting to do this? Is it because cracked corn is so much cheaper? I fear they will learn quickly that you get what you pay for, hopefully not at the expense of the birds.


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## ET1 SS (Oct 22, 2005)

I mix our feed. During the winter, the ground is frozen and we have a thick layer of snow with a crust. So our livestock can not forage on their own.

I give them all 75% cracked corn all winter long. They need calories.

At least until after it gets warm and the temps rise up above -5F.


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## fishhead (Jul 19, 2006)

She's going to produce some expensive chicken fat and if any of her goats are male she runs a very real risk of causing them a painful death from UC.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

corn is a low protein carb. carbs affect animals same way it does humans. carbs are good but only in low "dosages"

i prefer whole corn over cracked. and i only feed it as a treat so to speak in hot weather, and only small amounts in winter. its good for creating heat in the birds. beneficial in cold weather.


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## potatoguru (May 6, 2013)

If allowed to free range, the hens will be perfectly fine. Their production will be lower than if you fed them laying mesh. Back in the 'ol days on my grandpas farm corn was all the chickens were fed, but they did have a free run of 300 acres to eat all the bugs and grass they want.


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## Dixie Bee Acres (Jul 22, 2013)

I know I won't be able to produce anywhere near what my birds will consume in a year, but I do plan on growing some feed for my birds this year. Mainly Truckers Favorite white corn, sunflower seeds, sorghum seeds, and some dried bean and peas. That is what I plan anyway. Once it is all harvested and dried, I will mix and grind it together. 
Plus all summer long, my birds have a lot of area to forage and they get spoiled with garden waste.


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## CadesLilFarm (Sep 23, 2013)

K Epp said:


> I had a friend who has chickens (in a coop), turkeys and goats tell me that she is going to start feeding all her animals nothing, but cracked corn and hay. Whats your opinion on that?
> 
> I feed a mix of 22% layer pellets and cracked corn to the birds ( chickens, ducks and turkeys) goats get feed and all the hay they want. They all free range during the day.
> 
> I know that corn is cheaper, but don't they need more?


The goats DO NOT need that corn! Please ask your friend to not feed them corn! It is not good for goats! No nutritional value in it! Please don't feed corn to goats!


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## Lizzie Bella (Feb 14, 2008)

This is the first time I have ever heard not to feed goats deer corn. Mine love it. It's good to know. Do you have stats on this?


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

CadesLilFarm said:


> The goats DO NOT need that corn! Please ask your friend to not feed them corn! It is not good for goats! *No nutritional value in it! *Please don't feed corn to goats!


That is the silliest thing I read today. Of course corn has some nutritional value, it is just that fed alone, it is a long ways from being a complete and balanced feed. 

As far as the OP question, I feed corn, grain sorghum, peas and oats, how ever it comes from the cleaning plant at work to my chickens ( and goats ). But My chickens are 100% free range and do not get enough to make them fat like it will if fed to cooped chickens. 

Out of somewhere around 40 hens ranging form 8 months to 2 years old, we are getting , right now 20 to 30 eggs a day and there is very little growing here at this time. That production is just fine with us. We eat all we can and sell the rest.


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## CadesLilFarm (Sep 23, 2013)

BobbyB said:


> That is the silliest thing I read today. Of course corn has some nutritional value, it is just that fed alone, it is a long ways from being a complete and balanced feed.
> 
> As far as the OP question, I feed corn, grain sorghum, peas and oats, how ever it comes from the cleaning plant at work to my chickens ( and goats ). But My chickens are 100% free range and do not get enough to make them fat like it will if fed to cooped chickens.
> 
> Out of somewhere around 40 hens ranging form 8 months to 2 years old, we are getting , right now 20 to 30 eggs a day and there is very little growing here at this time. That production is just fine with us. We eat all we can and sell the rest.



Ok has some nutritonal value (carbs!)


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

Corn does not. raise an animals metabolism nor does it create heat. What it does do is provide energy for the chickens body to help it combat the cold. Feeding corn in the summer will not overheat your birds but it may help add some weight. It is also a good way to provide vitamin A to your birds. The carotene helps give egg yolks a nice yellow color.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

Lets look at corn another way. 

Our birds have been selected on diets containing high percentages of corn since we got good at growing it. As we got better at growing it and harvesting it, the poultry world in America grew. 

It is not a coincidence that Americans historically preferred yellow skinned breeds. It was not superficial vain eye appeal, nor was it with white skinned breeds in England. 

The poultry breeds that were developed along side the advances of corn production is easy to see. 

In fact I would say that the poultry industry would not made it as far if it were not for corn. 

50-60% of a jungle fowl's diet is seeds. Another 10% is fruit. Our birds are seed eaters, and what they need the most of is energy. There is no seed that provides that energy as effectively and efficiently as corn. Corn's amino acid profile compliments legumes. 

I could go on and on, but the point is that our birds were developed and selected on corn, perform best on high corn diets, and corn is much more efficient to provide. It is easy to debate the pros and cons of corn, but it is impossible to intelligently argue the importance of corn in keeping poultry in America.

I am not saying that corn is necessary or anything like that. I am just saying that corn is a good thing, not a bad thing.


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## CadesLilFarm (Sep 23, 2013)

gjensen said:


> Lets look at corn another way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ok yes, corn has been fed to poultry and livestock forever. I know that. I just think it is very unbalanced with high carbs and fat and is not necessary. So I don't think I should feed my goats or chickens corn. So thats what I have to say about corn


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

corn is not a natural occuring grain or seed. its man made. w/o mans intervention it would disapear in a few yrs. (thankyou history channel and modern marvels)

it does have nutritional value, but so does a snickers bar with almonds. with this reasoning in mind, it does not mean its good to consume it any at all much less in large quantities. 

like a snickers bar, corn should be used as a treat. not as a staple. but here in the states. its used in large amounts in all animal food diets and human diets because its cheap and easy to produce in huge quantities. and its extremely versatile. 

but one must reason why so many rations for both animals and humans are now getting away from corn even advertising that it is not part of the said rations ingrediants.

same goes for soy. a very high protein source but plenty of cons to using it. but yes corn does give energy. after all its a carb. but how much corn does the average american chicken really need? how much energy do they need? answer: nill to none. plus there are much other sources that offer other and superior nutritional aspects that far outweigh the positives corn does offer.
and if feeding pellets or crumbles, there is plenty of corn already in the mix.

corn: good as a treat. after all fowl love corn like kids love candy (that right there tells you something) there are pros but more cons. the average amer. poultry owner is duped into thinking corn is a necessity when its not. so poultry as a whole consume too much. just like we consume to many carbs and snickers with almonds.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

sammyd said:


> Corn does not. raise an animals metabolism nor does it create heat. What it does do is provide energy for the chickens body to help it combat the cold. Feeding corn in the summer will not overheat your birds but it may help add some weight. It is also a good way to provide vitamin A to your birds. The carotene helps give egg yolks a nice yellow color.



true corn does not in itself create heat, but its the digestive process that creates heat. digesting corn is not an easy thing to do, esp. whole corn, so the digestive system must work harder. its creates energy, heat is a by product of energy. exerting energy makes the being feel hot. 

to much corn in hot summertime, not good. heat and fat is created
to much corn in winter time, still not good but it does help with creating internal heat.

other grains and added vitamins to rations are BETTER sources of vit A. but yes that corn does give a nice orange color to the yolks. gives the impression that the egg is healthier when there is an absence of grass and other greenery. i use the that bright orange yolk as a good selling point to my egg customers....not a lie. but not all its "cracked" up to be


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

CadesLilFarm said:


> Ok yes, corn has been fed to poultry and livestock forever. I know that. I just think it is very unbalanced with high carbs and fat and is not necessary. So I don't think I should feed my goats or chickens corn. So thats what I have to say about corn


 That is why it is balanced with other ingredients. It does and provides what it is supposed to. Energy. 

And chickens NEED high carbs. They are different than any other animal we keep or ourselves. They have high heart rates, breathing rates, high activity, etc. 
Their heart rate is something like 275 beats per minute. They take something like 75 breaths per minute. Do not hold me to the exact numbers, but it is crazy high like that. 
They point is that they burn a lot of energy just sitting on the roost. 

And fat is an item that I think commercial rations tend to be short on. Fat goes bad in a bag, so there is not a lot of quality fat in it. Then grinding etc. loses some. 
I supplement my birds feed at different times with some oil and/or oil seeds, and feather quality is much improved for doing so. Of course too much is bad to. 

All of the ingredients in a ration has it's limitations and short comings. 

And I hope you do not feel like anything was directed at you or anyone. All I was/am doing was sharing my view on the topic. 

The topic was all corn on confined birds, which is bad. It shifted to that corn was bad, which I do not understand.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Here's what is wrong with an all corn diet - Pellagra, a deficiency of Vit B3 - Niacin. In humans, symptoms include aggression, dermatitis, insomnia, weakness, mental confusion, and diarrhea. In advanced cases, pellagra may lead to dementia and death. 

In the early 1900's, 100K people died of pellagra. Experiments were done on prisoners, putting them on heavy corn diets to simulate what a lot of Southerners were eating at the time. From wikipedia: "Goldberger experimented on 11 prisoners. Before the experiment, the prisoners were eating fruits and vegetables from the prison garden. Goldberger started feeding them only corn. About two weeks into the experiment, the prisoners complained of headaches, confusion, and loss of appetite. In the third week, seven of the 11 broke out in pellagra, and two prisoners begged for release. Goldberger cured them, feeding them fruits and vegetables again, and gave them their freedom. In 1920&#8217;s he connected pellagra to the diet of rural areas with corn-based diets rather than infection, contrary to the common medical ideas of that time." 

I'm not anti-corn; I'm pro a balanced and diverse diet for all critters.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

gjensen said:


> That is why it is balanced with other ingredients. It does and provides what it is supposed to. Energy.
> 
> And chickens NEED high carbs. They are different than any other animal we keep or ourselves. They have high heart rates, breathing rates, high activity, etc.
> Their heart rate is something like 275 beats per minute. They take something like 75 breaths per minute. Do not hold me to the exact numbers, but it is crazy high like that.
> ...



for added fat, i use cat food or dog food. much better source of fat. plus all the other good stuff fowl need. like animal protein. and the protein itself is higher. something confined fowl need. 

but a good quality of dog/cat ration is needed. if cheap stuff used, all your doing is adding more corn to their diet. i feed my dog a corn, soy, grain free product. 

enough corn and energy in pellets / crumbles. IMO a pellet/crumble MUST be fed to fowl that is contained.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

DEKE01 said:


> Here's what is wrong with an all corn diet - Pellagra, a deficiency of Vit B3 - Niacin. In humans, symptoms include aggression, dermatitis, insomnia, weakness, mental confusion, and diarrhea. In advanced cases, pellagra may lead to dementia and death.
> 
> In the early 1900's, 100K people died of pellagra. Experiments were done on prisoners, putting them on heavy corn diets to simulate what a lot of Southerners were eating at the time. From wikipedia: "Goldberger experimented on 11 prisoners. Before the experiment, the prisoners were eating fruits and vegetables from the prison garden. Goldberger started feeding them only corn. About two weeks into the experiment, the prisoners complained of headaches, confusion, and loss of appetite. In the third week, seven of the 11 broke out in pellagra, and two prisoners begged for release. Goldberger cured them, feeding them fruits and vegetables again, and gave them their freedom. In 1920âs he connected pellagra to the diet of rural areas with corn-based diets rather than infection, contrary to the common medical ideas of that time."
> 
> I'm not anti-corn; I'm pro a balanced and diverse diet for all critters.



outstanding info. i didnt know this at all. thanks for posting.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

I used to work in a feed laboratory.

Corn has 8-9% protein and laying hens need 16% protein. Our ancestors fed corn and it worked out very well because the chickens also ate bugs, table scraps, skim milk, and so forth and so on.

If this neighbor is going to feed straight corn I hope that he either free ranges his birds *OR* that the hay is alfalfa! (Alfalfa is MUCH higher in protein than grass hay)


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

Dead Rabbit said:


> true corn does not in itself create heat, but its the digestive process that creates heat. digesting corn is not an easy thing to do, esp. whole corn, so the digestive system must work harder. its creates energy, heat is a by product of energy. exerting energy makes the being feel hot.
> 
> to much corn in hot summertime, not good. heat and fat is created
> to much corn in winter time, still not good but it does help with creating internal heat.
> ...


It's a good story but totally false. The starch in corn is very digestible and does not raise body temp at all. As a matter of fact it can cause slightly lower temps in cows since it is more easily digestible than forages.
With the exception of corn cereal grains have practically no vitamin a in them.
There are no other cereal grains that are a better source of vitamin a.
In poultry, corn is appreciated for its highly digestible starch, low fibre and relatively high oil content.


I don't think anyone is for a diet containing nothing but corn but to dismiss corns importance in a good ration based on silly ideas and wrong information is doing your animals a disservice.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

the digestive process tween cattle and fowl is two ends of the spectrum. 

w/o great detail. the digestive process of cattle is more a chemical one and for fowl, its sheer muscle motion (grinding in the craw). energy is needed for working muscles, heat is a byproduct of muscle motion. 

thats why i get hot when shoveling all this snow. and its cold outside. but i dont get hot when sitting in front of this computer, digesting this sausage gravy bisquits and scrambled eggs.

other grains do offer vit. A. but a good balanced pellet/crumble have vit./ minerals added. we are in agreement on the important issues here. im not anti corn either. i use it. but its not a necessity. even in cold weaather. 

and for what its worth they have now found corn is not good for dogs, horses, goats, cattle, and humans. 
simple fact of the matter, a man made product is never as good as what GOD created. then of course we must wonder about starches themselves. how much is truly needed? compared to how many are consumed?


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

When it is hot, I find that my birds do most of their eating in the morning and evening. More so than otherwise. They are not eating in the heat of the day. 
The food is through their system fast enough that I think the feed has small impact on core body temperature. Certainly if all else is wrong it could be the straw that broke the camels back. 
I do not even think twice about feed when it is cold or hot. It is not in them long enough to have a lasting effect. Everything about the bird's system is fast. 

That is why they need all of them carbs. LOL.

They also generate more heat to digest protein. 

The better the nutrition, the better the bird, and the bird's better ability to tolerate stress.


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

Dead Rabbit said:


> for added fat, i use cat food or dog food. much better source of fat. plus all the other good stuff fowl need. like animal protein. and the protein itself is higher. something confined fowl need.
> 
> but a good quality of dog/cat ration is needed. if cheap stuff used, all your doing is adding more corn to their diet. i feed my dog a corn, soy, grain free product.
> 
> enough corn and energy in pellets / crumbles. IMO a pellet/crumble MUST be fed to fowl that is contained.


My livestock all get non-GMO corn that we grow ourselves. It's not the basis of their diet, but they eat it. It's hardly empty calories/carbs. In fact, it's very healthy. I don't see the sense in feeding machine/factory processed food to any animal if you don't have to. 

Our dogs eat raw most of the time, but we can't always do that, so they do get a quality bagged ration.

To the OP: Are the birds free-ranged? They should be able to get everything they need. A fistful of corn/feed will keep them coming home at night.


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

Dead Rabbit said:


> the digestive process tween cattle and fowl is two ends of the spectrum.
> 
> w/o great detail. the digestive process of cattle is more a chemical one and for fowl, its sheer muscle motion (grinding in the craw). energy is needed for working muscles, heat is a byproduct of muscle motion.
> 
> ...


Again none of what you say is anywhere near true. If the grinding action of the craw is what is causing heat then it wouldn't matter what you feed the bird because everything would cause the craw to work.
You seem to have no idea about how things actually work. Your whole concept of feeding seems to be built on fairy tales.
To say that the craw causes heat that cows do not generate would be to ignore the fact that cows chew and rechew their food expending energy twice.
And if you knew anything about feed you would know that corn is the only cereal grain that contains vitamin a in levels high enough to actual do anything.
I have seen no reasonable scientific studies that show that corn as a responsible part of a ration is bad for any of those animals. Keep up with the false stories though some may find them entertaining.


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## milkman (Feb 3, 2007)

Corn is a wonderful grain. It has feed the people and beast on this planet along time. Yes nothing but corn isn't good for any animal, but with out corn the world would be starving. It's the single most important crop, in the world. GM corn is inferior to standard hybrid and OP corn, has less protein and nutrients. I would rather have corn in the crib than nothing.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Dead Rabbit said:


> outstanding info. i didnt know this at all. thanks for posting.


The reason why most people have never heard of pallagra is because in the US it is virtually non-existent any longer. You almost can't buy breakfast cereal that doesn't have added vitamins and you would be hard pressed to find a mass produced wheat flour that is not enriched with vit B.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

sammyd said:


> Again none of what you say is anywhere near true. If the grinding action of the craw is what is causing heat then it wouldn't matter what you feed the bird because everything would cause the craw to work.
> You seem to have no idea about how things actually work. Your whole concept of feeding seems to be built on fairy tales.
> To say that the craw causes heat that cows do not generate would be to ignore the fact that cows chew and rechew their food expending energy twice.
> And if you knew anything about feed you would know that corn is the only cereal grain that contains vitamin a in levels high enough to actual do anything.
> I have seen no reasonable scientific studies that show that corn as a responsible part of a ration is bad for any of those animals. Keep up with the false stories though some may find them entertaining.



for the sake of decency, and converstion, i will ignore the sarcasm and not respond in kind. perhaps you should regurgatate that statement and think about it too.

but in no stretch of the imagination is chewing the cud equivalent to the action of the craw. 

grinding whole corn is alot more tedious process than grinding up any other typically used grain.

again with the vit a. argument......... there is no argument. b/c what you say is true. but that isnt a good enough reason to feed corn, much less over feed corn as probably most everyone that has fowl do. other grains have vit a. a complete balanced pellet has plenty added. PLUS corn ....most folks throw something else to the fowl when penned. vit a is not a rare vit. that can only be found in a few places. its in most everything to some degree.

nuff said from me on the subject. obvious neither of us will change our minds. by tomorrow morning we will both be throwing corn to our respective fowl. hopefully not to much. fat birds will benefit neither or us.........for what its worth, not everything is based on science. common sense goes along way too.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Dead Rabbit said:


> true corn does not in itself create heat, but its the digestive process that creates heat. digesting corn is not an easy thing to do, esp. whole corn, so the digestive system must work harder. its creates energy, heat is a by product of energy. exerting energy makes the being feel hot.
> 
> to much corn in hot summertime, not good. heat and fat is created
> to much corn in winter time, still not good but it does help with creating internal heat.
> ...


This whole post is full of misinformation. Corn is easily digested and does not magically "heat" up an animal. It is basic chemistry and nutrition.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

Lazy J said:


> This whole post is full of misinformation. Corn is easily digested and does not magically "heat" up an animal. It is basic chemistry and nutrition.



i believe you and i have danced this dance before a couple yrs ago......no sense re beating this dead horse. 

nothing has changed. nothing will.


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## Lazy J (Jan 2, 2008)

Dead Rabbit said:


> i believe you and i have danced this dance before a couple yrs ago......no sense re beating this dead horse.
> 
> nothing has changed. nothing will.


Nothing will change, your assessment that corn magically raises body temperature of animals will continue to be WRONG!


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Lazy J said:


> Nothing will change, your assessment that corn magically raises body temperature of animals will continue to be WRONG!


You have never been cold, eaten high-carb foods, and warmed up?


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## BobbyB (Apr 6, 2009)

Dead Rabbit said:


> for added fat, i use cat food or dog food. much better source of fat. plus all the other good stuff fowl need. like animal protein. and the protein itself is higher. something confined fowl need.
> 
> but a good quality of dog/cat ration is needed. if cheap stuff used, all your doing is adding more corn to their diet. i feed my dog a corn, soy, grain free product.
> 
> enough corn and energy in pellets / crumbles. * IMO *a pellet/crumble MUST be fed to fowl that is contained.


Key right there.

Everybody has one, everybody is entitled to one. But neither makes anything right. 

I feed a lot corn to fryers the last 3 weeks or so before butcher. And it does exactly what I want.

Blanket statements about anything because one person does something a certain way or has certain beliefs how things need to be done is what brings on these arguments. 

You and 10 others can feed exactly like you do.

Me and 10 others can feed like I do. Its all of our right.

You and your 10 obviously have a thing against grains.

Me and my 10 dont. The biggest result ? Me and my 10 spend far less to get the same results.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

Lazy J said:


> Nothing will change, your assessment that corn magically raises body temperature of animals will continue to be WRONG!



lol....that was certainly well thought out and articulated. sound reasoning such as this,,,im starting to sway your way. well done............suh.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

BobbyB said:


> Key right there.
> 
> Everybody has one, everybody is entitled to one. But neither makes anything right.
> 
> ...



you sir are mistaken. im all for grains. and in past decades i fed 75% grains to 25% pellets....at the recommendation of a few well knowledged and well experience chicken men, i even switched to 100% grains and legumes in my feed mixture. but i was not pleased with the results. so i switched back to my 75 % mixture.

but i was feeding sporting birds. not some run of the mill layer flock. the cost of feeding grains and legumes is outrageously high in this area. and for regular chickens there is no need to feed this way. plus a layer needs additional/different nutrition, that feeding out sporting birds do not require. 

now in getting the birds ready for show, corn is a major ingrediant. because its just a carb, necessary for energy. sporting birds need alot of energy... even then, the corn is freshly crack and many grind it down. why? 

2 reasons -- 

1st. becasue whole corn has nutritions that cracked does not. when cracked the germ starts to lose nutrition. so freshly cracked or ground you get the nutrition immediately. its not sitting around in a bag for who knows how long steadily losing its value.. 
2nd reason. you want those birds totally empty in their digestive system. corn is harder to digest and will stay in system longer. you want that corn to pass through the system quickly while secreting the carbs out of it. 
even then corn was a small percentage of the mixture. rice anther nutritious carb was used. many times the corn used wasnt even the typical field corn. popcorn, and flint corn has better nutrients, and even more energy..... 

corn can not and will not ever equal in over all nutritioanl value other grains or even legumes. like soy beans, canadian peas, field peas, etc. from my experience oats and wheat is just as good as corn and in many aspects much better...........BUT corn is used inplace of this because its cheap and plentiful. 

i use corn to this day. even with my layers. im starting to use wheat again. and easing back on the pellets. but if a chicken is never fed nothing but a pellet. he will be just fine. perhaps better off.

nuff said.


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## Sumatra (Dec 5, 2013)

There is so much controversy in chicken feeds, I doubt either side will win in the end. Some believe 16% pellets will get the healthiest chickens, others 18%, a few 20%, a few prefer Nutrena, others Purina, another brand of feed, or even their nearest feed mill. In the alternative field, there are camps of entirely corn, corn and free-ranging, 100% pasturing, forest free-ranging, fermented feed, custom mixes with things like peas, beans, rice bran, dried earthworms, fish flakes, BOSS, oats, soybeans, and lupine. Still others prefer home-grown things, comfrey, duckweed, BSFL, mealworms, earthworms, or barley fodder. In the end, it seems like there is no right combination, just matters of opinions and what works for a specific person.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

BobbyB said:


> Key right there.
> 
> Everybody has one, everybody is entitled to one. But neither makes anything right.
> 
> ...



sir i will add something else:

my last post, the feeding method for show birds, that was not a method i came up with. i didnt go into great detail, but its a method that was commonly accepted and practiced long before i was born. it was probably practiced 100s of yrs ago. it was devised through genertions of trial and era. till coming close to perfection. i just gave you the brief elementary description, but the method had become a science. 
i learned it and many other things when it comes to breeding, health and feeding fowl, from true chicken men whose whole lives were dedicated to this sort of thing. things learned that go against the grain or the status quo. things that were proven from hands on experience.
me and my posts are not parroted from some local yokal that has one foot knee deep in the corn field/industry. that basis their beliefs off biased random untested heresay that they read in a book off the shelf at Tractor Supply.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

I could take the other side and argue the merits of other grains.

Wheat has a more complete profile, but it has it's limitations. If it was equally productive, you would still rarely see it as more than 20% of a purely commercial ration. The birds do not perform as well on it. 

Oats has the most complete profile of them all, and the oat itself is great feed. It's hang ups is the hulls. Chickens are not ruminants or rabbits. Another hang up is it is not as productive of a crop to grow. If it was as productive and processed, we would see more of it in poultry feed.

I soak oats, and the main reason I do is to separate the hulls. Ever processed birds after feeding with whole dry oats? They are full of hulls. 

The modern corn variety's profile has changed. It is not the corn of a 100 years ago, but it is better than ever at providing what it is best at. Digestible energy. There are more efficient sources of protein etc. 

Sumatra is right. We get a bit opinionated about what is best. There is too many variables to why different people report different results. The birds are different (not every breed and/or strain is the same), different management styles etc. If I lived in Canada, wheat would be more important to me etc. Then what seams fine to one is not fine to another.

Really at the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding. The birds will tell on you. I can walk someone's yard and about tell you what the problem is. Anyone that does more than all in and all out gets to know their birds, and the birds will tell on you. 

When I am trying to put a finish on my birds, I like a little can tuna and de hulled sunflower seeds. I think most birds can benefit with a little more animal protein and a bit more oil (fat).


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## CadesLilFarm (Sep 23, 2013)

gjensen said:


> I could take the other side and argue the merits of other grains.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That pretty much sums it up for us!


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## sammyd (Mar 11, 2007)

I can't see how someone who tells us that


> a man made product is never as good as what GOD created.


 promotes the use of some processed factory made supplement over a natural seed of a plant...



> grinding whole corn is alot more tedious process than grinding up any other typically used grain.


What about a junebug? What if the stuff is cracked? How does a gizzard know what it has in it? It just grinds away and when whatever is in there is done it moves on. The gizzard does create heat from muscular action but corn does not cause the thing to work any harder.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

sammyd said:


> I can't see how someone who tells us that promotes the use of some processed factory made supplement over a natural seed of a plant...
> 
> 
> What about a junebug? What if the stuff is cracked? How does a gizzard know what it has in it? It just grinds away and when whatever is in there is done it moves on. The gizzard does create heat from muscular action but corn does not cause the thing to work any harder.



why is this so hard to understand? 

what seed has all that a supplement has in it?? i assume you are referrencing the dog/cat food.?? what seed can you give has the fat, the animal protein, has the vit/minerals that is in these product. if free ranged you dont need these supplements IF the environment supplies it all. but most have contained fowl. no way they can get whats needed. if you read my other post i have gone 100% grain. for an entire season. but didnt like the looks of my fowl. nothing in particular, but i can tell something was missing. a man that knows his birds can just see and feel things when observing them

have you ever crushed a june bug with your foot/hand. now go out and crush a whole kernal of corn. common sense tells you whole corn is a very hard kernal. imagine a muscle having to to grind away for hours on a craw full of corn. the chicken is on the roost sleeping, that craw is just continously working working working. 

for the 100th time. its not the corn per say. its the digestive action that causes heat. the craw works harder on whole corn because its a large grain and its a hard grain.

the whole process is not rocket science. its not even that hard to comprehend. you can believe what ever you want. but tell me this.....how many roosters have you emptied out in all your born days? emptied out means have their entire digestive system empty? nothing left. another words they crap nothing but a fizzy dime size of white moisture.

it takes a minimum of 3 days. if fed and exercised correctly for two weeks prior to the emptying process that bird will be at its peak not just physically but mentally, its reaction time and reflexes are at its absolute physicall best. 

now feed whole corn for a week and then try to empty one. how long will it take you?? how will the birds health and well being at the end of feeding corn?? no try to empty a few 100. then a few 1000s ....then come back and we will talk. cause you will actually know something from first hand experience and not just conjecture.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

gjensen said:


> I could take the other side and argue the merits of other grains.
> 
> Wheat has a more complete profile, but it has it's limitations. If it was equally productive, you would still rarely see it as more than 20% of a purely commercial ration. The birds do not perform as well on it.
> 
> ...



good post mr jensen. soaking oats is a must IMO. if fed dry go out late at night or early morning and look at the droppings. you will see hulls in the manure. that didnt digest. but if soaked they will digest the hulls too. fermenting is even better. it ups the protein and nutrition. plus they eat it like candy.
from my expeirnce oats is the best grain one can readily get... if soaked and/or fermented. its not used as much simply because its quite a bit more expensive than corn. 

which brings another point: the old adage you get what you pay for. quess whats the cheapest grain you can buy? corn.

wheat is a good grain. but i agree with you its not a grain that can be fed exclusively. where as i know many that have fed oats after fermenting exclusively for long periods of time. and it works.

all grains can be soaked or fermented. and it improves them. except corn. i have been known to soak corn for a couple of days and feed it to the fowl. esp. in hot summertime. it adds moisture and softens the kernal makes the nutrients come out faster from the germ. but corn cant be fermented like everything else, for obvious reason.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

Sumatra said:


> There is so much controversy in chicken feeds, I doubt either side will win in the end. Some believe 16% pellets will get the healthiest chickens, others 18%, a few 20%, a few prefer Nutrena, others Purina, another brand of feed, or even their nearest feed mill. In the alternative field, there are camps of entirely corn, corn and free-ranging, 100% pasturing, forest free-ranging, fermented feed, custom mixes with things like peas, beans, rice bran, dried earthworms, fish flakes, BOSS, oats, soybeans, and *lupine.* Still others prefer home-grown things, comfrey, duckweed, *BSFL*, mealworms, earthworms, or barley fodder. In the end, it seems like there is no right combination, just matters of opinions and what works for a specific person.



sir what are these two things in bold print.... im not familiar with them.


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## CadesLilFarm (Sep 23, 2013)

Dead Rabbit said:


> sir what are these two things in bold print.... im not familiar with them.



Yes, I have never heard of thos things either


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

I "assumed" lupine was meant to be an equivalent to legumes plants. If not, I do not know.

BSFL is Black Soldier Fly Larvae.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

gjensen said:


> I "assumed" lupine was meant to be an equivalent to legumes plants. If not, I do not know.
> 
> BSFL is Black Soldier Fly Larvae.



ok i understand now....im in favor of legumes. but they are pricey and generally only found around here in pigeon conditioner type feed. which when i was buying 13 yrs ago or so, it was over $30 per 50 lbs.

the black solder fly larve, ive seen ways of doing this on youtube. but never tried it.

whats your experience Mr Jensen.


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## CadesLilFarm (Sep 23, 2013)

Hey everyone, is soy bad for chickens? I know it isn't great for goaties but what about chickens?


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

CadesLilFarm said:


> Hey everyone, is soy bad for chickens? I know it isn't great for goaties but what about chickens?



chickens can and will eat anything. hence the term "yard buzzards"

from my experience there is nothing wrong with soy.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

CadesLilFarm said:


> Hey everyone, is soy bad for chickens? I know it isn't great for goaties but what about chickens?


 There is a lot of anti soy stuff out there, but I have no problems with it. It is about like the corn, so be careful. LOL. 

One of those do some digging and decide for yourself. Just consider the sources. A lot of misinformation is spread on the internet. And a lot of opinions that are not proven.
I will put it this way, corn and soy dominate the bagged feed's ingredients,and our birds are healthier and more productive than ever.
Even if we do not like the system there is a lot to learn from it. The system is built on economy, facts, and results.

A lot of this stuff gets to be more about ideals than it does facts, and we cannot seam to reconcile them. Our ideals do matter, so decide what you think is best. It is important that you feel good about what you do. 

Cross species comparisons are useless and are not worth considering.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

Dead Rabbit said:


> ok i understand now....im in favor of legumes. but they are pricey and generally only found around here in pigeon conditioner type feed. which when i was buying 13 yrs ago or so, it was over $30 per 50 lbs.
> 
> the black solder fly larve, ive seen ways of doing this on youtube. but never tried it.
> 
> whats your experience Mr Jensen.


 I feel like the breeder ration that I feed has it all. I like the condition of the birds, the hatchability, size and vigor of the chicks, etc. etc. 
I mentioned that I cut the feed during periods of maintenance. And I make sure that the birds that do not have access to greens get brought some everyday. Those greens have legumes with it, according to season. 

I think the Soldier Fly larva is an interesting idea that has caught on. I can't see where it would hurt, but I have no experience with it. 

I am trying a new breed, and have been considering new things. They are different. Regardless, I am starting with what works for me and whatever adjustments I make will be done step by step over time. I need to know what helps and hurts.

I am trying to attach some photos. If it works, the first two is what I have been doing. The second two is what I decided to try do something with.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

gjensen said:


> There is a lot of anti soy stuff out there, but I have no problems with it. It is about like the corn, so be careful. LOL.
> 
> One of those do some digging and decide for yourself. Just consider the sources. A lot of misinformation is spread on the internet. And a lot of opinions that are not proven.
> I will put it this way, corn and soy dominate the bagged feed's ingredients,and our birds are healthier and more productive than ever.
> ...


corn and soy has always been there. and if you ask some the health benefits are less because of GMOs...............im torn on that discussion. id say the added vit/minerals to the modern rations is what makes the fowl, esp. contained fowl more healthy than in yesteryear. its nothing to do with the grains.

i feel cross comparisons are useful. a chicken is a chicken there will be differences, of course, but the end result is still a chicken. they all came from the original 2 that walked off noahs ark. 

and everything should always be considered. thats how one learns. its the blind refusal to listen, muchless experiment to prove or disprove a theory that keeps people ignorant.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

gjensen said:


> I feel like the breeder ration that I feed has it all. I like the condition of the birds, the hatchability, size and vigor of the chicks, etc. etc.
> I mentioned that I cut the feed during periods of maintenance. And I make sure that the birds that do not have access to greens get brought some everyday. Those greens have legumes with it, according to season.
> 
> I think the Soldier Fly larva is an interesting idea that has caught on. I can't see where it would hurt, but I have no experience with it.
> ...


beautiful catalanas. but im not in the know on this breed. whats your opinion of them?


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

That did not work so well. I will do better next time, LOL. Sorry. 

The top male is a 36wk old cockerel that was weighing 9lbs at the time. Standard weight is 8 1/2 lbs. He finished at 10 1/4 lbs. A bit too large. Getting size and keeping size is a heck of a lot harder than losing it, so I like to be a little over. I like 9 or 9 1/2 better. 

The bottom two are 7 and 8 months old respectively. They will both finish under their standard weight of 8 lbs. Size will be one of many things I will be working on.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

Dead Rabbit said:


> beautiful catalanas. but im not in the know on this breed. whats your opinion of them?


The top two are NHs, and the bottom two are Catalanas. You can see my preferences. 

The Cats are worth starting with. I hatched 120 plus or minus of them last year out of five that I started with. I kept 11 if that says anything.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

gjensen said:


> That did not work so well. I will do better next time, LOL. Sorry.
> 
> The top male is a 36wk old cockerel that was weighing 9lbs at the time. Standard weight is 8 1/2 lbs. He finished at 10 1/4 lbs. A bit too large. Getting size and keeping size is a heck of a lot harder than losing it, so I like to be a little over. I like 9 or 9 1/2 better.
> 
> The bottom two are 7 and 8 months old respectively. They will both finish under their standard weight of 8 lbs. Size will be one of many things I will be working on.



if weight of cocks and cockerals is an issue, it sounds like you need to focus more on the hen line of said breed. 
its my opinion a good brood hen is the secret to the success of any line of fowl. you get that hen line right everything else falls in place. 
most folks want to concentrate on the brood cock, and hence the cock line. too much emphasis in one direction screws up everything else........course you probably know all this already. lol.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

gjensen said:


> The top two are NHs, and the bottom two are Catalanas. You can see my preferences.
> 
> The Cats are worth starting with. I hatched 120 plus or minus of them last year out of five that I started with. I kept 11 if that says anything.



you did right on culling heavy. two more generations like that and you will probably have something.

a simple formula that always seems to prove true it to breed best to the best. a suggestion: best cockeral/son back to the best hen/mother and perpetuate that line. this is assuming your pen mating and not flock mating so you know exactly who produces who.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

Dead Rabbit said:


> if weight of cocks and cockerals is an issue, it sounds like you need to focus more on the hen line of said breed.
> its my opinion a good brood hen is the secret to the success of any line of fowl. you get that hen line right everything else falls in place.
> most folks want to concentrate on the brood cock, and hence the cock line. too much emphasis in one direction screws up everything else........course you probably know all this already. lol.


 That is an old saying that has no merit. It makes no genetic sense. Size is a compilation of genes that is linked to neither sex. Both sides contribute equaly, if all else is equal. The cock only has more influence when it comes to sex linked traits, particularly color traits that are sex linked. 
I know a lot of old timer teach that and believe that, but it has been proven wrong. I can also refer to many experimental crosses that I have done that prove otherwise. 

The benefit of the old adage is that it puts emphasis on the female side of the equation. That is where their improvement was. Where flocks were traditionally flock mated, and individual hen did not have much influence where the male had a lot. Where before the results were more random. 

This is where trap nesting helped us so much. Identifying superior performing females.

I keep more males per hen than many people do and single mate. The females help me (or hurt me) as much as the males do. The female side is certainly important, just equally important. 

If you take the influence of the family out from behind the birds generally the results will be intermediate between the two. They will both have influence. 

If size is in their heritage, what you want to do is hatch as many as you can. Hoping to dig up remnants of an ancestor farther back in their history. Then pick an appropriate time to measure weight, consider height, and length etc. etc.

Generally speaking who is largest at a particular point in maturity will be largest in the end. You have to get to know the birds to decide when that is. Consider pecking order etc. I am quick to get the cockerels separated so all else is equal.

I can get heavier birds rather easily, but I am looking for type and balance to. It takes time. And a whole heck of a lot of hatching. I can't forfeit much for little. Or lose anything along the way.

If their is some variability in the flock, you can make initial improvements relatively fast. It is after a couple years where it will start telling on me. Heck, you could even say that it is easy to improve something and mess the rest up in the process. 

But that is why I like them. I like learning and I have a lot to learn.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

it is a very old method. proven time and again. i learned it yrs ago from very old individuals. successful individuals. 

heres what i like to do. have two lines. a hen line and a cock line. 

everything based off the hen and her line. once a superior individual is found. breed back heavy to her. creating a line. a tightly bred line. the best cock out of her line then bred heavy to him, creating a line. 

with in a number of generations you will have good individuals. if you get to tightly bred, or too many generations inbred, you may run into trouble. but theres ways to fix that too. 

then these two lines can be crossed back and forth, line bred to one another. course this method takes yrs and yrs. and you need alot of space and time to dedicate to this....but its a method for serious breeders and its much easier to "inherit" the work of an old timer who has gotten it right already. and keep perpetuating his work. 

course its all based off the hen side. everything goes back to that. even the cock line.

another course is to keep out crossing, but in reality that gets you no where in the long run. it may work short term but in the end you must go back to something or someone that has the orginal lines. and pray they are there. 

and just to keep this on subject: nutrition is a huge factor in caring for lines. well fed, lines of fowl is a must. a variety of grains and heavy to the grain side (but light on the corn) in your mix. IMO a good breeder pellet that has everything in it is a must. after all nutrition can carrry a poorly bred bird, but a well bred bird can not make up for poor nutrition.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

ive enjoyed this mr jensen. i havent had a conversation like this in yrs. certainly not on this forum....

i havent had brood pens in over 3 yrs and havent been serious about breeding since '08...........but this has motivated me. i may have to go set some brood pens up once this snow dispeates.


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## CadesLilFarm (Sep 23, 2013)

Can someone answer my question about the soy?


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

CadesLilFarm said:


> Can someone answer my question about the soy?


My opinion is on post 60. It got lost in the shuffle.


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## JamieCatheryn (Feb 9, 2013)

CadesLilFarm said:


> Can someone answer my question about the soy?


Some folks are concerned about soy allergens, omega 6 content, and phytoestrogens being carried over in the eggs. Ideally I would feed a soy free blend myself, but at this point it's not worth the cost for me and at least fresh pastured hen eggs are better than the store.


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## Terri (May 10, 2002)

Soy is better for the chickens if it is cooked: raw soybeans have a trypsin inhibitor that interferes with the digestion of protein. Soy in chicken feed is just fine in that respect because it will have been cooked. 

Ruminants can eat it raw and not be bothered but chickens do better if it is cooked.

Dead rabbit, when you say to pay attention to the hen line to get bigger birds, are you meaning to raise separate lines to cross to get the benefit of heterosis?


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## solsikkefarms (Jun 1, 2013)

I like corn... right on the cob, with a little butter and pepper. Who wouldn't like that? Chickens like it too, but they aren't as picky eaters as I am.

My birds are all free range and a mixed flock of many different types of poultry. I throw a couple forks of grass hay in the morning (mostly for the geese) and throw some whole corn on top. Keeps them busy, they eat it when they want and hunt for whatever else that floats their boats all day long. All my birds are healthy and happy happy happy.

I don't have any numbers or scientific data, and i'm sure there are more efficient ways to feed them but this is how Grampa taught me so its what i do. If they where in a completely enclosed system though without the ability to free range i would want to give them a more balanced diet and lots of variety.


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## Sumatra (Dec 5, 2013)

Dead Rabbit said:


> sir what are these two things in bold print.... im not familiar with them.


Yes, lupine is a legume, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lupin . Sweet blue, white, and yellow lupine has been raised in Mediteranian countries as animal feed, as well as for human consumtion since the Roman times. There is another variety called bitter lupine which is toxic. Nervous syndrome is caused by an Alcaloid in the bitter lupine. Also the fungus diaporthe toxica on the lupine will cause liver damage. 

Wild lupine in pastures will also cause abortions in livestock. When raised as a crop, It is very important to keep the crop away from the wild forms to prevent cross polination. Make very sure that is from a safe sweet crop and use with caution. Sweet lupins can be fed raw, but the birds often avoid them, especially to start with. They shouldn't be fed above 10% of the diet, because although they've been bred to have low levels of toxins there are still some. 

Even with the best low-toxin lupins, legumes like lupins only make a complete protein source if combined with grains like wheat. Furthermore you'll soon see signs of amino acid shortages unless you add meat protein, though they can get a good deal of that protein if they are free-ranging. Lastly the birds will need sunlight, greens and a source of B vitamins like horse droppings or yeast.

All that said, in certain areas it is a cheap source of protein (40%) and plentiful where they are grown.

Here are a few additional links pertaining to lupine:

http://www.lupins.org/feed/

http://www.feedipedia.org/node/12271

http://www.feedipedia.org/node/12272 











BSFL is a much simpler topic, thank goodness. 

The larvae are found in large groups in the organic material, and can tolerate very hot conditions. When disturbed, they will retreat from the light, just as worms do. The adult fly does not bite, nor is it known to carry any diseases. Interestingly, over half of the Black Soldier Fly larvaeâs fat content is made up of Lauric Acid, which has strong antimicrobial properties and helps to prevent bacterial and other infections.

In addition, the larvae are scavengers, thriving on several kinds of decaying matter such as carrion, manure, plant refuse and waste products. With a dry weight protein content of roughly 42 percent and a fat content of about 34 percent, the larvae also make ideal inexpensive feed for chickens. Some folks raise these in the bins and use them as fishing bait. Others feed them to the birds.

Essentially their housing is a bin with a ramp at one end. When the larvae are ready to pupate, they crawl up the ramp, then falling into a collection bucket, or other location. For those of us who like to dabble in small ecosystems, BSFL have been raised underneath quail pens, the larva growing on the quail droppings, but the ramp is then raised along the sides to a trough, where the quail eat them. 

This causes a nearly self-sufficient system, and if you have a larger bin, some sort of two-part grower can be made too. BSFL like to stay near the surface, and earthworms can be raised underneath on what the larva missed, giving the additional bonus of compost and extra protein. One note though, both creatures make a lot of liquid, and a screened area on the bottom is essential. 

To maintain any BSFL cycle, you will need to be in an area with a pre-existing black soldier fly population in order to maintain them. Experts on the internet report that black soldier flies live in zone 7 and warmer, but we have them here in zone 6 and the map suggests they might even dip into zone 5. 

Corrugated cardboard is often used to incubate the eggs, and a separate area may be needed to house some pupa which then hatches into the fly, mates, and lays eggs. All this can be kept rotating year-round if the temperatures are kept within the larva's activity temperature 85-100F, which could be as simple as keeping a lig on the pile and giving them food, as they produce their own heat.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

Dead Rabbit said:


> ive enjoyed this mr jensen. i havent had a conversation like this in yrs. certainly not on this forum....
> 
> i havent had brood pens in over 3 yrs and havent been serious about breeding since '08...........but this has motivated me. i may have to go set some brood pens up once this snow dispeates.


 I have to. I enjoy the birds, and enjoy chatting about them. Oddly, I came here looking to learn more about rabbits. 

Concerning the breeding plans, etc. I follow a plan, but it is more about gaining some control of the direction and organizing the process than anything. I tend to prefer three families, and the freedom to do side mating. I am after all, breeding birds and not a plan. 

The trick to line breeding charts is identifying an individual(s) that are exceptional. Then I am going to "prove" them before I devote anything to them. The foundation comes first. Line breeding is about setting the traits of an exceptional individual. 

I have seen a lot of devotion to these line breeding charts, but at the end of the day it is about picking and putting together birds. 
Like I said, I follow a modified version of a rolling mating plan. Just not religiously. I reserve the right to do whatever I want and whenever I want. Usually my creativity is in the side mating. There is always something to work on. 

The side mating help keep me out of trouble to. If something is not working out, I can scrap it. A trait can be introduced to a family from the side mating also.

I think that you can see what I am saying. I found myself to devoted to plans, but the birds do not always do everything we want them to do. I have found some freedom in the flexibility. I started making more progress, and was able to recover if I started heading the wrong way. 

I am in a sense starting over. I have played with production birds, I have done a number of experiments, and then I have at least maintained well bred birds. I have found myself interested in a ground up effort. Breeding the whole bird so to speak. That is more appealing to me. A project of sorts.


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## Sumatra (Dec 5, 2013)

CadesLilFarm said:


> Can someone answer my question about the soy?


There is nothing wrong with soy, properly prepaired. If you're buying it, soy should be alright. But if you're trying to grow your own protein source for homemade feed, be warned that they, like beans and peas, contain Trypsin inhibitors that not only reduce the availability of protein in the feed, but can also damage the bird&#8217;s pancreas. So you will need to soak them overnight in water, bring to a boil and simmer for 15 minutes after that. Drain, then feed.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

Sumatra said:


> There is nothing wrong with soy, properly prepaired. If you're buying it, soy should be alright. But if you're trying to grow your own protein source for homemade feed, be warned that they, like beans and peas, contain Trypsin inhibitors that not only reduce the availability of protein in the feed, but can also damage the birdâs pancreas. So you will need to soak them overnight in water, bring to a boil and simmer for 15 minutes after that. Drain, then feed.


I experimented with buying bulk soybeans, roasting them, and then grinding them.


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

Terri said:


> Soy is better for the chickens if it is cooked: raw soybeans have a trypsin inhibitor that interferes with the digestion of protein. Soy in chicken feed is just fine in that respect because it will have been cooked.
> 
> Ruminants can eat it raw and not be bothered but chickens do better if it is cooked.
> 
> Dead rabbit, when you say to pay attention to the hen line to get bigger birds, are you meaning to raise separate lines to cross to get the benefit of heterosis?



well yes and no. im definitely not in the know of genetics. i dont know all the fancy terms and what not. my experience and education was a hands on, and alot of hrs just listening to old men talk. and then attempting to perpetuate what they did and said after those gentlemen were dead and gone.

my method is basically two lines of birds. based off the same foundation. the one hen line. and if you go back far enough, off one hen. in certain circles she is called a "golden hen"

its easy to find a good rooster. a multi time show winner. but its not always easy or next to impossible to find that caliber of hen that can actually reproduce what she is, or even better. and the problem with this method, by the time this hen has proven her merit....another words her offspring is as good as her or better, alot of times she is too old or even dead. thats why meticulous records are necessary. but if you do determine she is "golden" then she needs to be bred to relentlesly. hatch everything you can from her. 

once a good son is found from her. breed that son back to her. then his best daughter back to him, so you can see, now you have 2 lines. seperate lines, yet the same. and continue the simple formula of best to best in each line.

after awhile the lines are now coming very closely bred, because by now youve been inbreeding and line breeding. but a good line can handle this...........but when it does start to show signs of going the wrong way. you can "infuse" fresh blood generally from an outcrossing or perhaps from another close bred line. 

but till this time, you can breed the two lines seperate, but cross them on one another for some awsome offspring. this method follows the old adage from master breeder hugh norman ( i believe it was him, memory is escaping me) he stated that brood fowl aint show fowl and show fowl aint brood fowl. anotherwords, these two tight bred lines will produce winners, but the winners will not produce them selves over again.....similar to the modern sexlink hybrid layers of fame. 

my experience was breeding for certain traits. color, size, and the normal things people bred for meant nothing to me. so i cant advice on how to breed for these traits.

but regardless,,,the hen and her line is the secret. 

the female is the secret. thats with brood mares, foundation bitches, new zealand rabbits and even people.....etc. 

remeber, in fowl, the male takes after his dame. work on the hen line and the roosters will fall in place for you.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

That is not from experience. That is a misconception that is rooted in an old wive's tail. Except where sex linked traits are involved, both side of the mating contributes equally. 
That is if all things are equal. What I mean by that is, it is not known what the contribution of the ancestors behind the bird will be. It is not just the individual that contributes but the family behind the individual. 
The only good that came from that old wive's tail is that it added emphasis on the female, and that was good because she was equally important. 

The "secret in the dam" is better understood that if you want to be successful, you better put emphasis on the female side of the equation. The picture is painted in the context that their would be more males in a flock than a female. The focus was to focus on the male. This challenged that position. 

It is no harder to find a good female than a good male. 

Respectfully, I have to say that the above is not true, and it has not been proven by experience. I encourage anyone that believes such a thing to put their pens together and go to work. Do not make a judgment on a single mating, but make an honest objective assessment after several and a couple generations. Keep some records. It will not take long before it is proven that this not the case. 

I agree with the rest, just not that the female has more influence or that she is harder to find. A good bird that also produces good birds is equally hard to find. Then the secret is not themselves, but the concentration of genes that began before them. The family behind the birds has as much or more than the individual itself. 
That is the point in line breeding to begin with. Concentrating a collection of superior traits in a family.


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## Fire-Man (Apr 30, 2005)

All I know is for about 15 years my chickens have been fed ground Corn, mixed with a 34/36 percent supplement to around a 16% protien mix. They have always done good, layed good. Mine are only let out to free range a few times per week----when I am close by to stand guard.

Grinding/mixing my own feed saves about $5 per bag----more if I can pick up the corn at a better price. Some years I grow corn, but not every year.


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## Sumatra (Dec 5, 2013)

gjensen said:


> I experimented with buying bulk soybeans, roasting them, and then grinding them.


And what were your results?


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## Dead Rabbit (Oct 30, 2010)

gjensen said:


> That is not from experience. That is a misconception that is rooted in an old wive's tail. Except where sex linked traits are involved, both side of the mating contributes equally.
> That is if all things are equal. What I mean by that is, it is not known what the contribution of the ancestors behind the bird will be. It is not just the individual that contributes but the family behind the individual.
> The only good that came from that old wive's tail is that it added emphasis on the female, and that was good because she was equally important.
> 
> ...





et' tu brutus?

your wording and manner of condemnation is reminisce of a couple of other boorish individuals.

your missing the tree because of the forest. the secret is the hen goes back to the reasoning that its much easier to pick out a superior individual on the cock side of the breeding. 

most anyone with relatively good eyesight and half a manner of reasoning can pick out a good rooster. they are easy to read. easy to judge. like a human man....a rooster is "what you see, is what you get" males are generally speaking one dimensional....lol...
then all you gotta do is put him in the brood pen to test him out.

where as a hen is much more indepth than that.....just like a human woman. females are an intriquing multi facet being........... to get a true reading of the hen, it takes alot of time. you CAN NOT use a flock mating system with trap nesting to guage a hen and her quality. all that tells you is how many eggs a week she is laying and the quality of said hens egg.
in a free ranged, or flock mating set up that hen is indisernable in character, and quality. she is affected by way to many external variables. 
i.e.---roosters. cockerals. other hens. the pecking order. availability of feed. quality of feed. whether or not shes in the mood to go broody. broodiness. chicks under foot. missing chicks. the LGD running through the yard. screaming children running rampart through the yard. the list can go on and on.
course the same influences affect the cock too, but generally speaking, brood cocks and potential brood cocks are already contained in their own yard. "pen" or personal territory. so many of these influences by this time do not affect them at all.....

so the only way to get a true reading of a hen, is follow your own advice. set up some brood pens. back in a corner away from the general hub bub of the typical chicken yard. i like odd numbers. so 3-5 yards or individual brood pens. a 4X8 is a good size but many hens do just fine in a 4x4. but the point is give them their own little piece of the world without to much external influences. study them. spend much time observing them. park yourself on a 5 gal. bucket and watch the hens. not as a group but individual. study their demeanor, their temperment, study their conformation, how they react to the occasional external influences. how they react to internal influences. study their laying habbits, their egg, the quality of egg. learn the hens as individuals. not just by feather color, and laying ability. 
in their own little world they become themselves. the only way to learn them as they truly are. this will take weeks and months. 
then introduce a broodcock. your studies and everything starts over. 
allow her to lay. your studies everything starts over.
if she is broody type allow her to set. your studies everything starts over.
allow her to hatch her clutch of eggs and raise a brood....your studies and everything starts over.

THEN and only THEN do you get into the difficult side of breeding fowl. how does she produce.

this is why it takes so long and its so difficult to find a true "golden hen"....if breeding just for feathers and eggs. non of this applies. who gives a crap about the hen as long as she has the correct lacing on her feathers. or she lays 250-300 eggs her first laying yr. BUT if building a chicken from ground up. you must focus on the whole chicken. the whole being. you must concentrate on the hen.

you are correct, the family behind the hen has a direct baring. after all she has a daddy too...... BUT if bred according to this time tested and centuries proven method, * the individual hen is the entire ancestral family*. hence the inbreeding and line breeding. always going back to said hen. or her direct proven decendents. if a pedigree was kept , that one hen would pop up top and bottom of ped. many many times with in just a few generations. 

you keep dismissing the sexlinked information...but much can be learned from this too. sex linked males follow not only the coloration of their parent hen. but if studied, they seem to favor that side of the mix....where as the sexlink pullets get color and egg laying ability from the father.

now if we go way back to one of my previoius posts......the cock line is already built off that one hen. or that one superior bred hen line. so the influential family behind the cock is once again......................the golden hen. she influence everything.

the hen influences the male offspring. period. regardless if bred well or not. whether you want to accept that simple statement or not is up to you. but its been proven time and again. even in my simple little lifetime. 
so if needing to improve the cockline in your new project, go back to the hen. a good proven hen and her line should be the "concrete" foundation of the family. this is not a fairy tale, its not a pipe dream or old wives tale either. 

before condemning it,,,,try it. focus on the hen. most dont. but that doesnt mean its wrong.

this converstion reminds me of the interview of dr bob womack of twh fame. he mentioned the importance of the brood mare more so than the stud, behind breeding horses. i will try to find the interview. its pretty lengthy even more so than this post.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

DR, please do not take me too seriously. I sense that my internet voice is not coming across as I would prefer. I never intend any disrespect. I do not like to be careful or insert smilies (or whatever you call them). It is not personal, and it is just chickens.

I think we are going in circles, and I can tell that I am not communicating my position well. It seams that you think I am saying what I am not. I will summarize it, and you can take it for what it is worth. The reason, I am is that I think it is helpful to put in perspective. 

What we do agree on is the importance of the female side of the mating. I stress it more than anyone that I know personally. I hear that it is stressed, but I do not see it. 
I am single mating exclusively which on it's own proof that I actually do something with the position. BUT, I test different males on a female. Doing that you will find that the average will become even. You will identify males and females that are superior, but neither more important. 
Really that topic is not even bout the individual, but the family behind the individual. How the genes have been accumulated. 
If I take a well bred bird from a uniform flock and mate that bird with a lesser bird that comes from a flock with more variability, the well bred bird will have more influence every time, regardless of whether or not that bird is male or female.

I never said that the female did not have influence on the male. I do not now where that comes from. She certainly does on both sexes. And so does he. Just equally if all else is equal. We have to assume discussing this that everything is equal, which it never will be. 

I agree and actually practice the importance of the female contribution. It is just not true that she has more breeding power in a mating because she is female. 

I cannot speak of horses. I know nothing about them. And I would not hear opinions on the matter. The proof is in the pudding. 

I would encourage you to keep emphasis on the female, but not to make her more than she is. Keep equal emphasis on the male and test them and prove them. Understanding what you are proving is based on how they inherited prior contributions. 

I would also encourage you to actually investigate the science behind it and then be mindful of it as you move along. It will clear u some things that you see in the pens along the way. 

Sometimes these things that have been passed down have a lot of value, but following them religiously and blindly ties a hand behind our backs. We have learned a lot about genetics in the last 50-100 years.


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## K Epp (Jan 7, 2013)

I have discovered one thing there are a lot of differing opinions on what to feed our birds. I have discovered I have been over feeding and wasting lots of food. I have been going through 100 lbs of food a week for 20 LF, 25 bantam, 3 turkeys and 2 ducks. I got some cleaning done in this warm weekend and found lots of lost food in the bedding. I'm changing the time I feed and the amount. Thank you all for sharing your methods and experiences. I have learned a lot. Those roos in the pictures are absolutely beautiful.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

K Epp said:


> I have discovered one thing there are a lot of differing opinions on what to feed our birds. I have discovered I have been over feeding and washing lots of food. I have bee going through 100 lbs of food a week for 20 LF, 25 bantam, 3 turkeys and 2 ducks. I hot dome cleaning g done in this warm weekend and nouns lits of lost food in the bedding. I'm changing the time I feed and the amount. Thank you all for sharing your methods and experiences. I have learned a lot. Those roos in the pictures are absolutely beautiful.


 You should be able to cut the waste down a bit. I do not know what you have, but maybe 25%?


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## K Epp (Jan 7, 2013)

LF: EE, Brown Leghorn, Australorp, Wyandotte, Dominique, Buff Orp, Cochin, Welsumer. Bantam: Silkie, d'Uccle, Polish, D'anver, Seabright. Turkey: Bronze Hen, BR Tom, and Narri Tom. Ducks Rouen duck, Cayuga drake. The Narri is fixing to go because he has a bad attitude.


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## Boer2222 (Dec 17, 2013)

Feeding corn may not be best idea if you take in the facts of GMO
I free range supplement with blue seal crumbles and scratch with white corn 
NO GMO


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## Pony (Jan 6, 2003)

You can grow your own non-GMO feed. Just make sure you find a good source for seed. 

As noted, everyone has their own way of doing things. Seems that, if it's successful for you, no sense in shifting gears because someone else declares you're wrong.

Same with goats. There are as many ways to feed as there are goat owners. Some animals will fare better than others, most will do about the same.

I try to never get so attached to one way of doing things that I become dogmatic and a pain in the patoot to other folks.


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## gjensen (Feb 8, 2014)

Sumatra said:


> And what were your results?


 It certainly adds labor, but the birds did fine with it. I was not happy with the mix that I come up with, but the soybeans was not the problem. My inexperience was. 

It seams to me that roasting the soybeans vs. boiling them is something to consider. Then it could be ground and blended with the rest of mix.


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