# Agrarian Lifestyle - Anyone Else



## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

After having just finished reading "Living Off off-grid" By non other than Michael Bunker I have realized that I was on the path to the Agrarian Lifestyle and didn't even know it.

We sold off our "just outside the city" place and moved to a very remote rural area where we owned some vacant acreage for a planned someday BOL.

I had told my wife on many occasions that I could not stay as close to God where we had been and where I had been working so we needed to move on. We moved here under the worst conditions at a speed that was neck breaking due to a quicker sale on the house than expected and some "get out right away terms" by the buyer. 

Note: Be careful when you pray for something, be specific or otherwise you may end up with "exactly" what you asked for.

The Agrarian Life is exactly what we have been working towards without ever knowing what it was. We are getting this place set up to be a work for God... We even call the place "God's Ridge".

Even though we shouldn't be prideful about building a self sustaining life and we should always give God the credit... I think the Agrarian Life is the life God would have us live. It provides for everything needed for our survival until we are integrated into the eternal life God has planned for his children.

I have a distaste for city living and really don't like going to town for much anymore, we are always looking for like minded people to discuss things with, so if you are thinking along the same lines, lets have a discussion.


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I have that book downloaded on my Kindle, just not to it yet.

Sounds as if you've found a haven - I find I go into "town" on the weekends less and less. I sure am glad you have your place and I look forward to reading that off-off grid book.


----------



## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

Angie,

I promise if you read the book with open eyes and draw your own conclusions you will never be the same person again. It was a great read and he has a new book out and available as of today that I am already reading... "Modern Religious Idols"


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

"Modern Religious Idols" what's that about since it's not quite as plain as the Off Off Grid title.

I need to go read about 7 or 8 books.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I'm about halfway through his "Modern Religious Idols". It's a tough read because I keep following back to his scriptural references.


----------



## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

Yeah Ernie I hear ya! I have my bible right beside me making my usual 6x6 read (which is reading 6 verses prior and 6 after each reference someone gives me to make sure of the context. At first I was a little skeptical of the book but the further in I read the more truth seems to flow. I'm still early on, but the references about Paul and the Belly are showing up in a light I obviously have missed when reading them before. How do you like the book so far?

Angie,

Here is a product description...

*Product Description*

Idol worship may seem like just a curious anachronism to our modern sensibilities. The Old Testament is replete with God's commands against it and Israel's temptation to it, but the average reader of today may feel quite insulated from the whole matter. Idolatry is dismissed as ancient naivetÃ©, the impulse of the unlearned, and a superstition that the enlightened man has outgrown. In the following pages, Michael Bunker strikes at the heart of such comfortable assumptions by demonstrating that idolatry is still as alive and malignant as ever, the difference between the ancient world and ours being only that idolatry has become more subtle and idolaters more sophisticated. Instead of having outgrown idolatry, men have nurtured and perfected it. No longer do we craft our idols out of wood and stone, leaving their obvious lifelessness to unsettle our consciences; now we give our idols the breath of life by enshrining them in unbiblical ideas, selfish values and worldly assumptions. Idolatry has always been a matter of the heart; the external manifestations merely change with the times and fall in and out of fashion. The purpose of this present volume is to expose and tear down the subtle idols of the heart that have been enshrined all around us and within us.


----------



## olivehill (Aug 17, 2009)

So... what's it got to do with S&EP?


----------



## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

wvstuck, I could have written your op. I feel exactly the same...right down to the be careful what you pray for LOL
Until I read that book, I didn't really understand what agrarian meant. Now not only do I understand but now I know what to call what I have been working towards for so long.


----------



## Sonshine (Jul 27, 2007)

Sounds like 2 books I would love to read. Guess I'll have to add them to my list.  I'm a firm believer that this topic fits in this forum because when a person takes care of the land and animals God has blessed them with, then it becomes a survival tool. After all, what better way to survive than to be able to live off the land?


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

olivehill said:


> So... what's it got to do with S&EP?


Because the S&EP moderator asked what the book was about, and she asked that as it followed from the "off Off Grid" premise which even you would agree is VERY S&EP.

Any other questions?


----------



## Pam6 (Apr 9, 2009)

Here is a link if anyone is interested:  Off, Off Grid


----------



## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

OOG great book...

Like you it was something I was feeling to call to move toward already and it put a name to it...

Disentangling from the web of modernity will take me a little time as there are some commitments to deal with but I'm going that way...

This forum is like a book of the month club, LOL...

Modern Religious Idols... Bookfinder, here I come...


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

olivehill said:


> So... what's it got to do with S&EP?


You can use the book to hide a can of beans if you'd like.


----------



## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

olivehill said:


> So... what's it got to do with S&EP?


If you read the book you'll quickly realize that these folks have built a community where survival is a lifestyle that involves everyday choices and everyday living. Survival in an Agrarian Life is not something they are planning for when and if something comes along, they live prepared everyday of their lives. Self Sufficiency is not their mantra, sufficiency provided by God would be a better description. 

Survival and Emergency Preparedness: The Agrarian is already there... There could not be a better relation than that.


----------



## Whydah (Jun 27, 2011)

Congratulations on finding "your" place in this world. An Agrarian lifestyle sounds idyllic, to be sure. And, it is the correct lifestyle for some, but not all.

We all have God-given talents. Eventually God will disclose to us what each of our talents are if He has'nt done so already. We need people living an agrarian way of life. We also need carpenters, engineers, pilots, and factory workers. Oh, and we need soldiers. If everyone gravitated towards just an agrarian lifestyle, we would be invaded from all four points of the compass within a year. Yeah, I know... it doesn't sound as idyllic, does it? But thats the reality of it all.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I've yearned for that life and I've tried to make it happen, but ultimately I can't get there yet. Not yet. So close, but not yet. 

It is God's will that I go out into the world for a time. As much as I'd like to retreat and pull up the drawbridge, it has been revealed that I have not reached that point in my life yet.


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

I would love to live that lifestyle...It is what i have always dreamt of.


----------



## Cyngbaeld (May 20, 2004)

I still want my washing machine! LOL I've lived without electricity a number of yrs and I've washed tooooo many loads of laundry by hand.

While I think it is a good goal not to be enslaved to our modern "conveniences", yet there are some things, like the washer, that make such a huge difference in quality of life, that you'd probably want to consider long and hard before ditching them completely. Now tv, I tossed that out long ago. I've been enjoying the net while it is available, but could get be without it. I really like having electric lights and will keep those as long as possible too. Running water may not seem like a necessity until you start pumping it by hand for irrigation and the livestock as well as household use. Even worse is hauling your water. Don't do that if you can avoid it.

Don't forget, until electricity became widely available, it was the norm for households to have at least one maid to help with the housework except for families with more children than money.


----------



## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

Whydah said:


> Congratulations on finding "your" place in this world. An Agrarian lifestyle sounds idyllic, to be sure. And, it is the correct lifestyle for some, but not all.
> 
> We all have God-given talents. Eventually God will disclose to us what each of our talents are if He has'nt done so already. We need people living an agrarian way of life. We also need carpenters, engineers, pilots, and factory workers. Oh, and we need soldiers. If everyone gravitated towards just an agrarian lifestyle, we would be invaded from all four points of the compass within a year. Yeah, I know... it doesn't sound as idyllic, does it? But thats the reality of it all.


While it's true there is need for some specialists but everyone (unless you're in the concrete jungle, and if so get out!) can grow their own garden for basic foods. I think the focus is more a turning away from the evils that have lured man away from God and to return to Him...

As for the soldiers, law and order, community policing etc. just remember the minute men... When the call is just, good men rise to the occasion...


----------



## farmerpat (Jan 1, 2008)

NewGround said:


> When the call is just, good men rise to the occasion...


Let's just hope they heed the call when it is sounded. We will need every able-bodied person when TSHTF.


----------



## TxAprilMagic (Nov 8, 2007)

Ernie said:


> I've yearned for that life and I've tried to make it happen, but ultimately I can't get there yet. Not yet. So close, but not yet.
> 
> It is God's will that I go out into the world for a time. As much as I'd like to retreat and pull up the drawbridge, it has been revealed that I have not reached that point in my life yet.


First, I must say that of all the people that post on this board, yours is the most respected by me. I look forward to your insight on a daily basis.
Now for the Second,
You have yearned for that life but yet you still have electricity,
internet, automobile of some sort, cell phone and I am sure a few more modern things around the house and or farm/ranch.

I am wondering , can people really live so totally isolated that you see no one in your life or talk to anyone. ( I don't think that GOD really had that in mind)(even Jesus traveled and spoke to people) I have read on this Agrarian Lifestyle and I have to admitt that I don't really understand it. I get the feeling that this lifestyle is a cult. Now before your get your pants in a wad remember I said feeling, or maybe an opinion and not fact. 

I LOVE ELECTRICITY, I grew up without it, I love my washing machine, (I grew up washing by hand. I love the grocery store for sugar , flour and such. I love garage sales, thrift stores, so on and so on.
I love having lunch with my best friend every once in a while. I love the telephone. I live a very, very frugal life and can suck more pennies out of a dime than most can out of a quarter and I am prepared if ----F but to tell you the truth I like the way I live and living a Agrarian Lifestyle just kind of scares the mess out of me. 
Explain to me what the lifestyle really is and what it means to you or better yet how you live a Agrarian life. What things are involved with it. 
Is it like Scientology?


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

Heh. Well, you can take the Agrarian life a little too far if you're not careful. It's addicting.

The way I define an Agrarian life is this:

A basic life following Christian precepts and living simply.

How would I set that up?

A small sheep herd, hunting and foraging, a small garden, and then producing my small household crafts. I will probably have some electricity as it does make things easier here and there, but I do not need the wholesale electrical grid pumped into my house. Of course this lifestyle requires a debt-free existence.

There's the rub. I've still got a mortgage, and with that mortgage it keeps me in the corporate/industrial world to draw revenue. I simply could not produce enough wool, mutton, turnips, or knives to pay that mortgage.

One does not need to put on a hemp robe, live in a hollow log, and eat bugs and dandelions in order to live closer to an Agrarian lifestyle. But living in a frugal manner and separating yourself from those ungodly pursuits is the goal to be attained.


----------



## TxAprilMagic (Nov 8, 2007)

Ernie said:


> Heh. Well, you can take the Agrarian life a little too far if you're not careful. It's addicting.
> 
> The way I define an Agrarian life is this:
> 
> ...




A basic life following Christian precepts and living simply.


*Ok, this definition is acceptable and not as scary as some of the stuff I have read on Agrarian Lifestyle. *

One does not need to put on a hemp robe, live in a hollow log, and eat bugs and dandelions in order to live closer to an Agrarian lifestyle. But living in a frugal manner and separating yourself from those ungodly pursuits is the goal to be attained.[/QUOTE]

*This one is one I already do.*


Thanks.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

You're there! Congratulations! You've achieved the dream of about 90% of this forum. 

I've got a lot of poor life choices I have to account for before I can extricate myself from the system, and then there's the simple fact that I'm where God wants me to be right now. Hopefully soon though I'll be tossed into the briar patch.


----------



## TxAprilMagic (Nov 8, 2007)

I have been doing a little reading since our last post on here and this is what I found. All you good people that are so excited about Michael Bunker and his super way of life might want to think twice. 

This is taken directly from HIS BLOG.
I have never met a self repected Christian that would talk this way much less write it down.

*It's too bad that mega-church attention whore Sarah Palin, who claims to be a Christian and a Conservative, decided to support mega-church actual whore Miss California Carrie Prejean. It seems that the mega-church crowd has decided that selling your body for money and fame fits perfectly with Christianity... but with other apostate bloggers teaching that separation is just "of the heart", what can you expect? I've been thinking of putting together a calendar of beautiful, intelligent, honorable, and faithful truly Christian women wearing Godly and Biblical modest clothing and wearing headcovers. I wonder if Sarah Palin and the conservative movement will support me and get their mega-church millions to buy my calendar?*

IS THIS THE PERSON THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO FOLLOW.???????????????


----------



## TxAprilMagic (Nov 8, 2007)

Michael Bunker claims to live totally off, off grid but I notice he has a computer, web site, (he asks everyone to make sure they punch into his web page so he gets the hits which we all know what that means), a blog, sells books for profit, has a cell phone and watches the weather channel. With all that when does he find time for a garden, butchering, washing laundry by hand and hanging it out, grinding grain , cooking sugar cane for sugar or molasses, cleaning house, so on and so on. Busy man isn't he living off grid.
I think he has a problem with Capitalism, conservatives and all together the American freedom that we have all enjoyed all of our lives and women having a mind to think with.


----------



## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

TAM, I don't really think you appreciate the idea... It's not about following Michael Bunker... This is not advocating a cult existence... In the book if I remember correctly he acknowledges he is still on the way there. He still uses a freezer for example but is preparing for "what if" by learning off grid preservation methods... I think his blog is a soapbox to reach others, his real soapbox doesn't carry his voice too far...

The grid and it's many conveniences have moved people further away from God... Getting off, off grid simply means returning to a simpler lifestyle, living closer to nature so we can appreciate what we have instead of taking it for granted... That can be whatever level you choose it to be... 

Practically speaking when (not if) the grid goes down there are so many sheeple left clueless it will a horrific tragedy... If you had to could you live off grid? Not just for two weeks until power is restored but an EMP wipeout, end of the world, type of event.

This part of the book is the surface level take away... The spiritual side is much deeper and is about what that means to you, not Michael Bunker... Certainly that lifestyle is not for all... Off, off grid does not mean robes and beards... Ingenuity still applies even without an electrical grid... 

Someone can more eloquently make my point, I probably should just have waited for that in the first place...


----------



## TxAprilMagic (Nov 8, 2007)

NewGround said:


> TAM, I don't really think you appreciate the idea... It's not about following Michael Bunker... This is not advocating a cult existence... In the book if I remember correctly he acknowledges he is still on the way there. He still uses a freezer for example but is preparing for "what if" by learning off grid preservation methods... I think his blog is a soapbox to reach others, his real soapbox doesn't carry his voice too far...
> 
> The grid and it's many conveniences have moved people further away from God... Getting off, off grid simply means returning to a simpler lifestyle, living closer to nature so we can appreciate what we have instead of taking it for granted... That can be whatever level you choose it to be...
> 
> ...


*If you can read what he, Michael Bunker, writes and honestly defend him and his teachings them GOD HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US.
Your right, I don't appreciate his idea of separating from the whole world which is his goal in life not just for himself which would be fine but he has great expectations of taking the rest of you with him. I think Jim Jones and his followers did that at one time and one time only, L.Ron Hubbard had a similar vision which is still in the works. A few more http://www.home.churches4america.co...://crossfaithministry.org/cultsinamerica.html

I just hope that any of you reading his books don't read them with an open mind but rather a strong independent mind and be careful of what lurks in the shadows.*


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

TxAprilMagic said:


> Michael Bunker claims to live totally off, off grid but I notice he has a computer, web site, (he asks everyone to make sure they punch into his web page so he gets the hits which we all know what that means), a blog, sells books for profit, has a cell phone and watches the weather channel. With all that when does he find time for a garden, butchering, washing laundry by hand and hanging it out, grinding grain , cooking sugar cane for sugar or molasses, cleaning house, so on and so on. Busy man isn't he living off grid.
> I think he has a problem with Capitalism, conservatives and all together the American freedom that we have all enjoyed all of our lives and women having a mind to think with.


And you're getting this where?

We embrace the technologies which serve us and the Lord and we reject those which do not. Do you embrace all technologies?

You've lost me now in attacking Michael Bunker. He's not even really in this discussion. I don't agree with everything he says, certainly, and I have not given up my farm and life to go sit at his knee and learn from him. But I read his books and I find wisdom there.


----------



## TxAprilMagic (Nov 8, 2007)

Ernie said:


> And you're getting this where?
> 
> We embrace the technologies which serve us and the Lord and we reject those which do not. Do you embrace all technologies?
> 
> You've lost me now in attacking Michael Bunker. *He's not even really in this **discussion.* I don't agree with everything he says, certainly, and I have not given up my farm and life to go sit at his knee and learn from him. But I read his books and I find wisdom there.


I am getting this off of His Own Blog and web sites. http://biblicalagrarianism.com/
It is his own words.
*Now, you've lost me Ernie since he was the reason for the OP in the first place.**It was all about him and his off off grid book.*I read his stuff and find no wisdom , just wanting to alienate whomever he can from their family and friends with the hope of his fortune growing. Sorry, just what I read. May GOD bless you and yours.


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Actually the Original Post is about getting exactly what you ask for, and living it.
The book and author is the reason OP realized he was living the Agrarian Lifestyle.

Then conversations happened.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

TxAprilMagic said:


> I am getting this off of His Own Blog and web sites. http://biblicalagrarianism.com/
> It is his own words.
> *Now, you've lost me Ernie since he was the reason for the OP in the first place.**It was all about him and his off off grid book.*I read his stuff and find no wisdom , just wanting to alienate whomever he can from their family and friends with the hope of his fortune growing. Sorry, just what I read. May GOD bless you and yours.


Well, it's not for everyone. Take what you can of it and leave the rest, I suppose. Better yet is his "source material" ... scripture.


----------



## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

TxAprilMagic said:


> I am getting this off of His Own Blog and web sites. http://biblicalagrarianism.com/
> It is his own words.
> *Now, you've lost me Ernie since he was the reason for the OP in the first place.**It was all about him and his off off grid book.*I read his stuff and find no wisdom , just wanting to alienate whomever he can from their family and friends with the hope of his fortune growing. Sorry, just what I read. May GOD bless you and yours.


I'm sorry you've taken the OP in such a context. I mentioned Michael Bunker because that was the last book I happened to read. His blog like many others is a rant, his is against the Mega-Church and it's values I think. He does have a good point. If the church is taking sides (and so often does) with the values of the world while directly going against the value of God, isn't that really poor Christian Leadership.

You've studied Mr. Bunker much deeper than I have. I don't look to him for all my spiritual advice and I've never even looked at his blog. 

The ideas you have of an Agrarian Life are somewhat skewed though. First I don't have to send anyone, any money to join... I am not forced to live a certain way, I'm not forced to live in a certain area and I'm not forced to live with any certain people. That pretty much kills the cult idea. You see people have been living an Agrarian life since the beginning of recorded history without having to drink kool-aid. They simply work hard and trust God.

The leader in the Agrarian system is the one true and sovereign God, that is the only person you are required to answer to. Unlike modern Christianity where worldly pursuits are the daily focus, the Agrarian spend his/her time on the pursuits of God. If you would read the book we are discussing instead of just some blog posts you would see that Mr. Bunker is not living in a hollow log at all. He is living in central Texas near a lot of other people and within a community of like minded people (of which he never mentions being their leader) The book mentions God and his commands much more than Micheal mentions himself. 

He talks in the book about using cars, tractors, electric and other conveniences in the interim and how he would like to achieve an eventual off off-grid life and have ways to survive in the event of some history changing loss of modern convenience. In the book he talks about how people attack him because he uses the Internet. But he clearly states that "his" Agrarian dream does not include living without any technology, instead you have to use technology with a cautious eye because it may not always be there... Constantly be thinking for ways to replaces it and learn how to live without it so you are not caught dead when it goes away.

His points are very true about the modern church and it's attitude toward the word of God. So many Christians today just use the God of their dreams and don't spend much time looking for the true God and submitting to his will. I myself am not a perfect Christian nor will I ever be... But living with less interference from the world and more direction from God is certainly attainable with some work and some changes in my life.

See if this direction from God fits in the Modern world... Because it comes from the New Testament:

Wives should be submissive to their husbands.
And Husbands should love their wives and never be bitter towards them.

Tell most modern Christian women that they should submit to their husbands and you will see how fast an argument can develop about how "that's not what he meant" and how that isn't going to happen. Yet the Bible is filled with direct commands to do just that. How often are we ready to ignore, or re-write the bible so we can have the God we want instead of the God who is.

Hmmmm... To be Agrarian is simply to put away the wants and desires of the flesh in the world and turn the focus back on living a God directed life in a simpler way while working the land for crops and other needs... Thus reaching a level of survival that is sustainable without the Grid.

The same goes for the Amish, some of them have electric... Does that make them a cult and less God Fearing.... Just saying.


----------



## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

WVStuck, 

great post...

Just so everyone knows, I read the Ball Big Blue Book of Canning too but I don't belong to that canning cult that believes I must use only Mason jars either...


----------



## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

Ernie said:


> I've yearned for that life and I've tried to make it happen, but ultimately I can't get there yet. Not yet. So close, but not yet.
> 
> It is God's will that I go out into the world for a time. As much as I'd like to retreat and pull up the drawbridge, it has been revealed that I have not reached that point in my life yet.


Keep plodding along brother... And pray for the solution.

We managed to get rid of the mortgage, pay off every bill and get to a place where our dreams could start.

I never imagined 4 years ago that I would be selling my house and moving to the middle of nowhere. After praying and praying and praying and trying harder and harder and harder God came in like a thunder storm and moved every obstacle in a fast and furious manner. Now I have to remember everyday where all of this came from and be thankful and be a good steward to the land he provided.

I have a ways to go also, breaking from the love of worldly things is not easy to do, but each day we get closer to the goal.

You'll be in our prayers brother.


----------



## Whydah (Jun 27, 2011)

This has all been quite enlightening in a weird sort of way. It appears that "agrarian" is just the latest buzz word that has been pasted over previous words like, frugal living, self-sufficiency, and preparedness. Its all the same, except for the titles.

Some of you have romanticized this agrarian idea to the point it may have become your "be all, end all" in life. I doubt that many have had to chop your own wood for heat and cooking, or plant, harvest, and grind your own grains, raised livestock and butchered it for food, sewn your own clothes, made your own tools, worked behind a horse or mule plowing all day, and all the while being "off the grid" (another new buzz term). Its not a romantic lifestyle. It is a mean existence incorporating back-breaking physical work EVERYDAY. 

No thanks! Been there, done that and watched as grandparents did it. I'll be as self-sufficient as I can be and as prepared as reasonable while still taking advantage of the technologies available to me as long as they are available.


----------



## TxAprilMagic (Nov 8, 2007)

wvstuck said:


> I'm sorry you've taken the OP in such a context. I mentioned Michael Bunker because that was the last book I happened to read. His blog like many others is a rant, his is against the Mega-Church and it's values I think. He does have a good point. If the church is taking sides (and so often does) with the values of the world while directly going against the value of God, isn't that really poor Christian Leadership.
> 
> You've studied Mr. Bunker much deeper than I have. I don't look to him for all my spiritual advice and I've never even looked at his blog.
> 
> ...


Your original and first post *was* about Michael Bunker and his book, that it would change your life and everyone should read it and join up. 

So you are telling me that his blog and his books are two different personalities. His books you buy are great but his blog is of a radical person.
So that means he has a split personality. No thank you, I don't believe I would want to patronize someone who writes such foul things about another person in a blog. He is of cult minded. So he lives in Central Texas, big deal, ya gotta live somewhere. Do you infact know that his neighbors appreciate him and his beliefs. 

I believe in GOD and from reading M.Bunker's stuff I can say that without a shadow of a doubt I live a much more frugal life and way more fullfilling life and an honest one to myself , my family,my neighbors and my friends than he since I don't have to write or say such foul things about someone who does not live the same way I do. I actually live the walk and talk the talk and he just demands. He brain washes, manipulates and bullies you into thinking his way is the only way. I am sorry but I don't believe that is what GOD intended for us. 

I have seveal dear friends who live in the city, live a city life and are in wonder all the time how we do it. They admire how we live, they marvel at the grit we have here on our ranch and visit every chance they get and I visit them but I have no intentions of shoving it down their throats , calling them names if they choose to live a different lifestyle than me. They are my friends and will always be my friends. Just because my very best friend lives in a high end life style ,I would never give her up just because she is different than I am or lives a different life than I do. We spend a lot of time together and she is very important to me and I to her. We can be different and still be in each others life. According to the teachings of Michael Bunker ; that is not possible*. You **told Angie if she read the book it would change her life.* I am not so easily influenenced by the way someone else wants or thinks how I should live my life. As far as the bible is concerned, which I have read from cover to cover over my life time and keep it very close at hand, you can take any verse in it and justify your actions, twist it, turn it and make it sound just like you want it to sound to someone and make them believe it. Michael Bunker is of mind for all of his readers, listeners , followers; which ever you call them, to separate yourself from anyone who is not just like him, from the same mold. That is a cult, plain and simple. He is a predator. No Thank You.
He is a dangerous fellow and I hope and pray to GOD, (the GOD I know and may not be the same one for you) that you are very careful when dealing with such people.


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

How did this get turned into a religious fuss? Lordy, I think I need to go sew.

And I did not get "go change your religious ways" from the first post or subsequent. Just the appreciation of simpler life and being Off, Off grid would change my consumer input.

I am so getting to HATE the term RELIGION, people like to attack each other due to their interpretations.


----------



## elkhound (May 30, 2006)

AngieM2 said:


> How did this get turned into a religious fuss? Lordy, I think I need to go sew.
> 
> And I did not get "go change your religious ways" from the first post or subsequent. Just the appreciation of simpler life and being Off, Off grid would change my consumer input.
> 
> I am so getting to HATE the term RELIGION, people like to attack each other due to their interpretations.


amen......:clap:


----------



## farmerpat (Jan 1, 2008)

AngieM2 said:


> How did this get turned into a religious fuss? .


I was just thinking the same thing myself.


----------



## farmerpat (Jan 1, 2008)

TxAprilMagic said:


> Your original and first post *was* about Michael Bunker and his book, that it would change your life and everyone should read it and join up.
> 
> As far as the bible is concerned, which I have read from cover to cover over my life time and keep it very close at hand, you can take any verse in it and justify your actions, twist it, turn it and make it sound just like you want it to sound to someone and make them believe it. Michael Bunker is of mind for all of his readers, listeners , followers; which ever you call them, to separate yourself from anyone who is not just like him, from the same mold. That is a cult, plain and simple. He is a predator. No Thank You.
> He is a dangerous fellow and I hope and pray to GOD, (the GOD I know and may not be the same one for you) that you are very careful when dealing with such people.


:hijacked: *Can't we just get back to the original post and discuss it?*





Whydah said:


> It appears that "agrarian" is just the latest buzz word that has been pasted over previous words like, frugal living, self-sufficiency, and preparedness. Its all the same, except for the titles.
> 
> Some of you have romanticized this agrarian idea to the point it may have become your "be all, end all" in life. I doubt that many have had to chop your own wood for heat and cooking, or plant, harvest, and grind your own grains, raised livestock and butchered it for food, sewn your own clothes, made your own tools, worked behind a horse or mule plowing all day, and all the while being "off the grid" (another new buzz term). Its not a romantic lifestyle. It is a mean existence incorporating back-breaking physical work EVERYDAY.
> 
> No thanks! Been there, done that and watched as grandparents did it. I'll be as self-sufficient as I can be and as prepared as reasonable while still taking advantage of the technologies available to me as long as they are available.


I wholeheartedly agree, but I think it's human nature to romanticize what you haven't experienced first hand (or have only minimally experienced), and to envision how you would deal with it. I've had to chop all of our firewood when the kids were small because d/h traveled extensively for business. I plant the garden, harvest it and can its bounty. I milk the cows and feed the pigs, poultry and goats. I help brand/work the beef cattle. I haven't had the opportunity to work behind the mules in the field yet (only cuz I can't get them to cooperate, and 2 Belgian draft mules are a whole lot bigger, stronger and more "determined" (for a better word!) than a 57 yr old woman! It is a very hard existence just doing what I do (hand-milking the cows, making butter by hand, making cheese, canning, butchering elk and other animals, etc.), and I don't do near what my ancestors did as far as growing their own grains (we don't have enough land) and trying to eke out a living any way they could. 

I own the DVD "Frontier House", and the first time I watched it, it was an eye-opener with how the settlers "envisioned" their roles would be, and what they truly ended up being. I could do the summer absolutely no problem, but don't know if I could put up enough food and firewood to make it through a Montana winter living 1883 style, having only myself to rely on for survival. Those people romanticized what their existence would be, as I did before I moved to this farm from the city, and I can tell you, real life is NOTHING like people's fantasies.

I, like you, do as much as I can, but I also still take advantage of the modern technology (hence the computer I'm on right now!). Everytime my arthritis flares up, I thank my lucky stars and the big man upstairs for the body-saving technology and modern conveniences I have to make life easier. There are varying levels of agrarian living, and each person can only do what is suitable for them.


----------



## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

I just don't get the hostility...

Kind of like non-believers...

If it's not right for you then leave it be...

Unless you have a different agenda?


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

farmerpat - good idea. 

I don't know that I will ever make that lifestyle and that may be not what I'm suppose to be/have. But parts of it may be. I do expect to read that book 'Off, Off Grid" and chose what parts are correct for me.

wvstuck - keep on telling us about your journey there. I'm really interested how the search for where you are, had a quick removal of obstructions? I have been wishing and working for and almost getting to where I could purchase land - then something happens to make the conditions where I cannot purchase land. Etc. Sometimes, I wonder about giving up and being happy here.


----------



## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

TxAprilMagic said:


> Your original and first post *was* about Michael Bunker and his book, that it would change your life and everyone should read it and join up.
> 
> So you are telling me that his blog and his books are two different personalities. His books you buy are great but his blog is of a radical person.
> So that means he has a split personality. No thank you, I don't believe I would want to patronize someone who writes such foul things about another person in a blog. He is of cult minded. So he lives in Central Texas, big deal, ya gotta live somewhere. Do you infact know that his neighbors appreciate him and his beliefs.
> ...



Why are you so angry about a choice I am making. I am happy that you are living your life the way you want and you feel the Holy Spirit moving and God blessing your way. 

I want to point something out to you. I DON'T FOLLOW MICHAEL BUNKER... I FOLLOW THE ONLY ONE AND SOVEREIGN GOD, THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, THE ONE TRUE GOD WHO TOLD MOSES TO TELL THEM "I AM THE I AM".

And me... I'm not perfect in the world's eyes and certainly not in God's I have much work to do in order to walk hand and hand with Christ, but I work at it everyday so please give me a break and let me work on my personal relationship with Jesus Christ my Lord, please don't be so quick to judge my walk based on a book I read that I feel could lead me to a less complicated life and strengthen my walk.

I read a book that might have the ability to change a persons life if they are looking to follow God more closely and live a less complicated and simplistic life. You haven't even read the book but you go on and on about what it might be about. This post was never about Mr. Bunkers Blog or his person beliefs outside of what I read in his book.

You are borderline going Wack-A-Loon over a principle. I am happy that God has blessed your life and has given you everything you ever wanted. I'll pray that God continues to keep you in that fashion.

However you contradict yourself and need to follow on your own advice.

Right here you trumpet how you would never talk about someone the way Michael did, so you are a better person and more honest to everyone...



> I believe in GOD and from reading M.Bunker's stuff I can say that without a shadow of a doubt I live a much more frugal life and way more fullfilling life and an honest one to myself , my family,my neighbors and my friends than he since I don't have to write or say such foul things about someone who does not live the same way I do.


But then don't you just turn around and do exactly what you claim you don't and you act in just the manner you accuse him of.



> I actually live the walk and talk the talk and he just demands. *He brain washes, manipulates and bullies* you into thinking his way is the only way. I am sorry but I don't believe that is what GOD intended for us.





> Michael Bunker is of mind for all of his readers, listeners , followers; which ever you call them, to separate yourself from anyone who is not just like him, from the same mold. That is a cult, plain and simple. *He is a predator*. No Thank You.
> *He is a dangerous fellow*


_Note: The book never told me to separate myself from anyone. In the book he makes very clear that is not not telling anyone how to do anything, it is a book on how to think about things outside the box._

There was never a demand of an attempt at bullying me in the book. I'm really having trouble figuring out who is pushing their belief in a lifestyle choice harder and by attacking people's ideas and desire more.... Is it Michael Bunker, or is it you?

I'm done with this back and forth.... I enjoyed the book, you didn't (but haven't read it) You have placed everyone that read this book in a cult and judged a man without full knowledge. Pray for me if you will, I obviously need it for my beliefs.

*Now back to discussing the book with others who have read it's contents.*


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

It's sort of like homeschooling ...

If you homeschool your children and have ever tried to explain WHY to someone who doesn't, you know that it's almost impossible to do so without inadvertently insulting the other parent. 

I can't tell you why I wish to withdraw from the corporate/industrial world and its grid to live a simpler life without someone who loves the corporate/industrial world and its grid taking it as a criticism. 

If God isn't leading you in that direction, you won't feel the passion for it.


----------



## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

Angie,

I'll tell you how it happened... I caution that the story will cause controversy (and I'll not respond to it this time I promise)

The story started almost four years ago when my wife and I decided life was going in all the wrong directions. I was working over 100 hours in a high level management job. We were living life like everyone in a America... Chasing the American dream and making sure our lives were filled with the latest and greatest. But we slowly figured out how foolish it was to live this way... Work hard today to pay for what we bought yesterday...There is no way to really ever get ahead, you're just stuck in a vicious cycle.

We sat down and formulated a plan to start removing everything we didn't need in order to pay off everything we "felt" we did need. We canceled the $150.00+ a month cable bill, we killed the cell phone contracts and went to a cheap home phone with measured service, we stopped eating out, we stopped going to expensive movies, so forth and so forth. We applied everything extra to a payment here and a payment there until 2.5 years later we were left with only a single car payment and our mortgage. Unlike most Americans we never borrowed out the equity on our house and property so the mortgage was very manageable. All along we stayed true to God and began to hear him talking more and more.

Our children had grown up and left the nest and we became temporary Foster Parents. We took in children that were removed from the home in the middle of the night. It was heartbreaking to see these children come in.... Broken, Abused, Scared and Withdrawn. We would keep the children, clean them up, get them new clothes and toy and work with the system until a permanent foster home could be found. Somewhere along the way God spoke and said we were going to be adopting, I tried to say NO (Jonah here) But we ended up adopting two children (girls) that had never been abused, they were abandoned and the lady who was going to adopt them just up and decided she wasn't interested any longer... Talk about rejection...God spoke and we listened and fully embraced our duty. The rest is history and the girls are two happy little barefoot farm girls today.

Now at our old place we farmed on a small scale, 1/2 acre garden, some chickens and goats... But the neighborhood was going to crap fast. Drugs had moved in and houses were being built right on top of us. We prayed and needed out. We had this land, but it was in no wheresville, no water, no septic, no road in, covered completely and tightly with trees. We prayed and prayed that if it be God's will we would like to move the girls to this location, we new the sparse amount of neighbors were all God fearing people and no one sells land, the city is so far away that this area will probably never develop.

We decided to have faith and listen, we put our home on the market to judge the response... For sale by owner, no real estate agent, no where to move to. I put a little for sale sign up in the middle of the real estate crash hoping to sell it someday. However God's plan was different, the phone started ringing off the hook and people were in and out of the house everyday wanting it. We only cut a couple thousand off the original asking price and sold it in a record amount of time. My daughter had a mobile home on the property we were selling, the buyer said we could stay in it through the winter and move it in the spring.... Their bank said MOVE IT or no CLOSING (5 days before closing and it was snowing) We prayed, a mobile home mover responded, 3 days later he moved it out, dozed the land back into shape and stored it near our farm for free. We moved in with my inlaws and prayed. We made some good money selling the house, it was paid off and we had cash in hand... Not enough to get everything set up though... I figured I needed another $10,000 to get basic living set up on the farm.... We prayed, and the IRS responded, we did our taxes wrong they said... They said we adopted children through a special program (I'd never heard of this) So we re-did our taxes with this little option for adoption under the state program..... GOD ANSWERED....

The tax refund went from us owing $2300.00 to us recieving a ..... $31,000 refund due to special adoption guidelines.... Hmmmm I owe it all to God and I want to keep driving hard everyday to find a simpler way of life for my family that keeps GOD in the forefront where he is remembered everyday for his great love. 

The story goes on and on, but I'm stopping here.

I'll not respond to anyone wanting to argue or stir unhealthy debate... I am amazed by God and as a result I'm less needy of worldly pursuits.


----------



## Whydah (Jun 27, 2011)

I think thats a great story, WvStruck! Each of us have a path meant just for us. Some paths are tougher than others.

I purposefully kept religion or spiritualism out of my posts on this agreian subject because its a personal thing and really doesn't matter in whats being discussed. 

Good luck to you and your "little farm girls".


----------



## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

Whydah said:


> I think thats a great story, WvStruck! Each of us have a path meant just for us. Some paths are tougher than others.
> 
> I purposefully kept religion or spiritualism out of my posts on this agreian subject because its a personal thing and really doesn't matter in whats being discussed.
> 
> Good luck to you and your "little farm girls".


You are so right, each person is on a path of their own choosing. I think all paths are tough at times and easier at other times. 

Now that I'm here it is a different path, cutting trees and clearing land goes on every week. Our mantra is "Open up something new every week".

At the same time we moved here at the end of February / Beginning of March and we now have crops in the ground, chicken coop is built, The Cow is fenced in, the pig pen is being built because the pig will be here in two weeks, well house is built, a 20'X24' building is standing and nearly full, fruit trees are planted, harvesting local berries and canning is going on and we are hand digging the root cellar now in some really hard dry clay. We will be building a small house over the cellar to live in until we can get our earth sheltered house built. The mobile home has served us well for the months we have used it, but it is about as energy efficient to heat and cool as an army tent. It will be sold and moved out when we have the small house done.

We get up each day and attack the work as a family and work until we are tired, sweaty and the sun is going down. As hard as the work is, we still love it and enjoy each day... We see the future of this place in our heads and we are going to work until it appears. This work is work we did growing up and got out of the habit of doing daily, it comes back quick and so do the right muscles once you push them hard enough.

As far as your earlier post:


> Originally Posted by *Whydah*
> Some of you have romanticized this agrarian idea to the point it may have become your "be all, end all" in life. I doubt that many have had to chop your own wood for heat and cooking, or plant, harvest, and grind your own grains, raised livestock and butchered it for food, sewn your own clothes, made your own tools, worked behind a horse or mule plowing all day, and all the while being "off the grid" (another new buzz term). Its not a romantic lifestyle. It is a mean existence incorporating back-breaking physical work EVERYDAY.


There is not a thing you mentioned as well as some you didn't that haven't been a part of my life in the past and quickly becoming a part of my life again. I think that is why the simpler lifestyle is something I am chasing... I truly do enjoy the hard work, the hot sun and seeing what can be done with my own two hands. I can build furniture and a home without an extension cord or a power tool also, a skill my grandfather was well known for. This is really a life for some and not for others.... But to each his own. I'm happy right here, and I'm happy others that aren't... Diversity is great! 

I just prefer to give God all the Glory for the things that happen here on God's Ridge. I think it relates as Agrarianism is based in God and working for his glory as I define it.


----------



## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

wvstuck said:


> Angie,
> 
> I'll tell you how it happened... I caution that the story will cause controversy (and I'll not respond to it this time I promise)
> 
> ...


Thank you for the inspiration... Sharing your story gives me hope... God bless you...


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

wvstuck - thank you so much for your story. It's amazing what can happen when the time is His time schedule. That's the difficult part. Waiting and hearing the message to YOU.

And the little farm girls, made me cry - so fantastic.

I remember seeing photos of the bulldozer clearing your home spot. Inspiring.

Angie


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

wv - do you have any photos you could post on a separate thread on the making of a simpler life? I loved seeing the bulldozer clearing the land, etc.


----------



## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

You know I do since as a fact , but right now everything is in between. We used the dozer to just get a toe in the door, since then everything has been by hand (with occasional tractor work). I'll try to get some pics together in the next day or so and put something together.

I need to post a picture of the two acres of blackberries we have been picking in the neighbors pasture. It is an amazing patch... The cows walk between everything and keep good access to most every berry without too much brier wading.


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

How neat to have the cows keep the pathway open to the berries. And blackberries are so good. (the mom in me says - watch for snakes).

and the photos - as your time allows.


----------



## farmerpat (Jan 1, 2008)

AngieM2 said:


> wv - *do you have any photos you could post on a separate thread on the making of a simpler life?* I loved seeing the bulldozer clearing the land, etc.


GREAT idea! I'd LOVE to see a thread like that. Lots of great ideas shared between posters, and a whole lot less BICKERING! :buds:


----------



## Guest (Jul 10, 2011)

TxAprilMagic said:


> I have been doing a little reading since our last post on here and this is what I found. All you good people that are so excited about Michael Bunker and his super way of life might want to think twice.
> 
> This is taken directly from HIS BLOG.
> I have never met a self repected Christian that would talk this way much less write it down.
> ...


I haven't read the book but if this is the kind of garbage he spends his time thinking & writing & preaching about I think he should spend several days plowing with mules . After looking at the back end of a mule for long enough he might figure out what sensible people see when they are around him . God gave us a brain capable of thinking for a purpose & I don't think that purpose was to keep living in caves & plodding along day by day never learning anything new or figuring out ways to make our lives easier .
My parents grew up on small farms during the depression & I've set & listened to my mother talk by the hour about not having electricity , carrying all their water from a spring quite a ways from the house , washing their clothes in the creek & laying the clothes over sagebrush to dry , working their selves half to death gardening & many other things just to keep body & soul together .
Mother was frugal all her life but she really appreciated the conveniences of modern life . She didn't just talk the talk , she had walked the walk & it had nothing to do with being religious , it was how she survived . About the only people I ever heard mother criticize were people who were too lazy to provide for their families . It didn't matter to her whether they farmed or worked in a factory as long as they provided . 
If a person feels called to go primitive to feel closer to god I see nothing at all wrong with that just as I see nothing wrong with being called ( so to speak ) to being a school teacher & collecting a salary & buying what you want . I do fail to see how turning your back on new technologies would make you be living closer to how god would want you to live . 
Learning the old way of doing things is a worthwhile pursuit just in case a person ever needed to for survivals sake .


----------



## mightybooboo (Feb 10, 2004)

31,000 in tax money to live the simple life.....Ive read enough.


----------



## cast iron (Oct 4, 2004)

Whydah said:


> This has all been quite enlightening in a weird sort of way. It appears that "agrarian" is just the latest buzz word that has been pasted over previous words like, frugal living, self-sufficiency, and preparedness. Its all the same, except for the titles.


Yes indeed, I think you are correct. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

At any rate, I wish folks the best in pursuing whatever lifestyle/belief system they choose and however they define it.


----------



## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

wvstuck, thank you for sharing your story. It blessed me tremendously. 
We have a similar story about how God moved us. Others (non-believers) call it luck, but we call it God. We know how the path has been made straight because it was His path.
I'm sorry this thread turned so nasty. Hopefully you know there are those of us who not only understand, but strive for the same goal. 
May God bless your efforts.


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

I know about hard work, and can tell you I would much rather be working all day, everyday, excercising my muscles and brain than sitting here on the computer WISHING I was living that life. You guys were here when I went through this last winter, and it was hard in a way I had not experienced, in so many ways. I learned and grew and had fun and stressed out. I would rather live like that again than move to the big city and stress out at some minial job....but thats just me. 

I love the thrill of knowing that without me working, my family would not make it. The awesome realization that I am literally keeping my family alive is plenty exciting. To sew my own clothes and blankets...to garden and harvest and milk and gather and chop wood, to keep a fire going in the dead of winter and gather snow for cleaning. To fight the elements and feed my kids. It is an amazing thing I would love to do. My mom asks me why I would go back to where the life was so short, and I told her, I would rather a short life well-lived than a long life dreaming. 

But again, it takes all kinds. That is just what I want.


----------



## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

Shrarvrs88 said:


> I know about hard work, and can tell you I would much rather be working all day, everyday, excercising my muscles and brain than sitting here on the computer WISHING I was living that life. You guys were here when I went through this last winter, and it was hard in a way I had not experienced, in so many ways. I learned and grew and had fun and stressed out. I would rather live like that again than move to the big city and stress out at some minial job....but thats just me.
> 
> I love the thrill of knowing that without me working, my family would not make it. The awesome realization that I am literally keeping my family alive is plenty exciting. To sew my own clothes and blankets...to garden and harvest and milk and gather and chop wood, to keep a fire going in the dead of winter and gather snow for cleaning. To fight the elements and feed my kids. It is an amazing thing I would love to do. My mom asks me why I would go back to where the life was so short, and I told her, I would rather a short life well-lived than a long life dreaming.
> 
> But again, it takes all kinds. That is just what I want.


Well said...


----------



## farmerpat (Jan 1, 2008)

Shrarvrs88 said:


> My mom asks me why I would go back to where the life was so short, and I told her, *I would rather a short life well-lived than a long life dreaming*. QUOTE]
> 
> I so agree Sharv... (to paraphrase from the movie Steel Magnolias): "I'd rather have a few minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special".


----------



## TxAprilMagic (Nov 8, 2007)

*wvstuck 
Mountaineers are free Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 702 

Agrarian Lifestyle - Anyone Else * 


*For those of you who are giddy about this new "Agrarian Lifestyle", I am begging you to do your homework. It is far from being a new concept. Read as to where it started and it's history up until now. It is a very old Society being reborn. Everything that pretains to this lifestyle is what all of us fight against everyday on this board. It is part of the "NEW WORLD ORDER".[/B]
I am really sick to my stomach that there are so many of you that will go into this blinded only to regret it. 

agrarian [&#601;&#712;gr&#603;&#601;r&#618;&#601;n]
adj
1. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Agriculture) of or relating to land or its cultivation or to systems of dividing landed property
2. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Agriculture) of or relating to rural or agricultural matters
n
(Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a person who favours the redistribution of landed property[from Latin agr&#257;rius, from ager field, land]
agrarianism n


http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=ag...4&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=f86e16a2,45739bf8

http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=Ag...2&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=65e03f48,1a6292f6

http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=Ag...5&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=c01da93e,f39b42df

http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=Ag...15&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=f2b7b2c5,67c8a62*


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

I don't usually use wiki to prove anything, but most people accept it.



> Agrarianism and agrarian have two meanings. One refers to a social philosophy or political philosophy which stresses the moral superiority of a rural life based on farming, as opposed to the supposed corruption of city life, with its banks and factories. Thomas Jefferson was a famous representative agrarian.[1]
> 
> The term "agrarianism" also means radical proposals for land redistribution, specifically the distribution of land from the rich to the poor or landless. This terminology is common in many countries, and originated from the "Lex Sempronia Agraria" or "agrarian laws" of Rome in 133 BC, imposed by Tiberius Gracchus, that seized the lands of the rich and distributed them to the poor.[2]



So, it was giving a definition of the Agrarian Lifestyle. 
There are two definitions given.
I am thinking WVStuck is the first that means a "Farmer"
The TxAprilMagic issues are with the second defnition.

The way WVstuck talks, he's interested in being a farmer,and not taking anything from anyone - just being away from city people


----------



## Shrarvrs88 (May 8, 2010)

The first is how I think of what I want. Just working the land, being away from the city, living a simle life. Not gov control or anything crazy.


----------



## Karen (Apr 17, 2002)

Good heavens! It's the 'concept' of the book that is being discussed. If the guy was a mass murderer, why would the 'concept' of the book be any less valuable? What in the world would make someone think they have to follow (or even agree with the lifestyle) of _anyone_ -- let alone an author -- in order to gain _useful information_. If it's useful and good information, who cares who gave it? :smack

If we only look for information from people who "appear" to practice what they preach, then we're sure going to lose a lot of valuable information. To put the focus on the 'person' instead of the information, is falling into a trap of ignorance. 

If you want to put it into the content of religion, we're still never to look toward any man, rather toward God; so whatever else this guy says outside of what we choose to believe, is irrelevant anyway!

I'm off to Amazon. It sounds like very helpful information.


----------



## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

Wow - I just read through this thread. Peoples' blood pressures appear to be rising faster than our national debt!

My take is most folks here are working towards achieving the same goals (both from a homesteading and, for the Christians, a spiritual perspective) - few will every really get there, but we'll try nonetheless. Whether it be from a Christian motivation or other, we all recognize that it's not wise to be dependent on worldly systems. So, everyone calm down and continue to plod along towards that objective.


----------



## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

Ted Bundy worked as a volunteer on a suicide hotline. Because the guy turned out to be a serial murderer, does that diminish the value of distress hotlines, in general?

You have to be able to take information in, cull from it that which is useless, and utilize the rest. It's called utilizing your judgment; admittedly, this is a skill which seems a lot less common than it used to be. However, tossing out an idea because someone took it and bastardized it doesn't make much sense.

If it did, Christianity wouldn't have lasted through it's first century.


----------



## Whydah (Jun 27, 2011)

The weakness to your assumption is that too many people hop onto any new fad and do not have enough knowledge to "cull" anything. They can' recognize whats good and whats bad.

Ah, yes... out in the country. Breathing all that fresh air. Waking each morning to the rooster crowing. Lowing of the cows. The scratch and tinkle of hoe working the soil. Off, and off the grid. Raising your own food. No government control... er, wait. Ever heard of Agenda 21? How about the White House Rural Council? Well, they will be running the show... even for you agrarians. 

No offense to anyone, but I liken this agrarian movement to a romanticism much like those who dream of moving into the forest and living off the land. Either is (and will be) successful only to a degree. Neither is sustainable in the long-run.


----------



## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Whydah said:


> The weakness to your assumption is that too many people hop onto any new fad and do not have enough knowledge to "cull" anything. They can' recognize whats good and whats bad.


Which begs the question of how they'd know whether the advice about said fad was good or bad... :huh:



Whydah said:


> No offense to anyone, but I liken this agrarian movement to a romanticism much like those who dream of moving into the forest and living off the land. Either is (and will be) successful only to a degree. Neither is sustainable in the long-run.


I daresay the system in place now isn't sustainable, in the long run. I have no wish to do without electric power or my tractor, but the "rat race" that most people are living holds no attraction to me. 

It has been my observation that anyone who converts simply from being "preached at", is a shallow convert who'll fall away. (It doesn't matter what system we're talking about, religious or otherwise.) If the preaching speaks to their heart it will do its work over time and take lasting root. All that to say that I don't fear fads, of any kind.


----------



## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

Well back to the original idea.... If I'm already living in the country, raising my chickens and roosters, feeding my cattle and tinking my hoe through the ground... And all the while have been working away at a less dependant system of living. And then as I originally said ... Hey this is how I am living and where I am heading, I didn't know they had a name for it until I read this book... Then I guess the fad really wouldn't apply... I already know what I'm in for and have the scars and callouses to prove it.

The current system will fail in my opinion, or at the very least slide deeply from the firm footing it once stood upon... I don't want to ditch all technology right now, I just want to have in place and be ready to fully implement an older and much longer proven system of farming and raising animals... Which means practicing the methods daily, weekly, monthly and annually... Day in and Day out.

I have a great tractor (Ford 3000 Diesel) and a ton of over priced implements to do the bulk of my farming, I learn new techniques on a wonderful piece of technology (my computer) everyday and have no intention of ditching that right now. But I am practicing other ways to farm, other ways to raise livestock and other ways to "Survive" the way my grandafther, his father and even his father before him, did things. My mother grew up working hard on a farm, we were always exposed to it in our upbringing and we all really enjoy it as a way of life.

The Agrarian principle as discussed in the first post as presented by Micheal Bunker in his book.. Really has very little to do with the sideshow in this thread. The book discusses intermediate ways and older ways as a side by side way of doing things.

Cooking with propane and gas are acceptable, as long as you understand that might not always be an option, do you have a wood cook stove and do you already cook with it some? Questions like that fill the book...

My faith was a work in progress long before I read the book and will continue to be a personal relationship with Jesus until I no longer draw breath. No preacher, evangelist or other lay speaker will make me belive directly in one doctirne.... The bible is a daily read here and I'm learning lots from reading it and asking God to guide my path and walk.

There certainly are people dreaming of living the "Good Life" who have no idea what they may be in for, but most members here have a concept of it, it is preached in every thread. The naysayers always come along and tell people that things are too hard, or too impossible on a farm... BULL... If you have the desire to live a hard working country life... Then go for it.... Learn as you go and enjoy what you do... If it ends up not being for you, then give up and go back to wherever you are happy.

Some of us will always be working from before dawn to right at dark and we'll enjoy the heck out it.... I promise


----------



## timfromohio (Jun 19, 2007)

wvstuck - sounds like you are well on your way.

I read the Bunker book and appreciated parts of it from an agrarian standpoint. I may not agree with him100%, and certainly don't agree with the way he spoke on his blog simply due to the manner in which he presented his opinion, but did find good parts in the book nonetheless. 

I agree with others who state that our current way of life is not sustainable. I think all live, one way or another, a more localized lifestyle. Eating seasonally, engaged in village economy. 

A fad is something people go along with out of choice. I think people will hopping on board the agrarian bandwagon out of necessity.


----------



## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

Sad... the hysteria continues...

I guess they need close down Old Salem too... No sense in anyone wanting to know about or learn old ways of doing things... 

If you read LR Miller's books about using horses instead of tractors you might be surprised to learn that on small acreage old-timey ways may be more cost effective (considering equipment payments, fuel, maintenance etc.)... I'm joining a group of old equipment enthusiasts who still keep the old ways alive... I'll give it a fair chance to see if it's right for me... 

Of course I don't know if they have a blog or not and frankly don't care... If I find value there I'll adopt what works for me... Just because some old ways aren't in fashion today doesn't mean they're no good...


----------



## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

wvstuck said:


> Well back to the original idea.... If I'm already living in the country, raising my chickens and roosters, feeding my cattle and tinking my hoe through the ground... And all the while have been working away at a less dependant system of living. And then as I originally said ... Hey this is how I am living and where I am heading, I didn't know they had a name for it until I read this book... Then I guess the fad really wouldn't apply... I already know what I'm in for and have the scars and callouses to prove it.
> 
> The current system will fail in my opinion, or at the very least slide deeply from the firm footing it once stood upon... I don't want to ditch all technology right now, I just want to have in place and be ready to fully implement an older and much longer proven system of farming and raising animals... Which means practicing the methods daily, weekly, monthly and annually... Day in and Day out.
> 
> ...


I was going to stay out of this one, but can't ! If it's a (cult) then brother I have been living the same as you for the last 6 years.  

And for the LORD, the last 50 + years.

Carry on brother, you are on the right path. Nuff said !


----------



## Becka (Mar 15, 2008)

Tarheel said:


> Carry on brother, you are on the right path. Nuff said !


I agree.

WVstuck, thanks for the book recommendation. I'll have to check it out.


----------



## katy (Feb 15, 2010)

WvStuck, thank you for your witness / testimony to His goodness. Having worked 80 + hours a week, one full time job and another part time, and for a duration of one + years, I can attest to saying to myself, "Now, why is it that I'm doing this ? And no it wasn't worth the price.

May He continue to bless your family, as all of you strive to follow Him. Wow, what an experience !


----------



## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

Thank you to everyone,

When I started this thread I had no idea the depth it would follow or the debate that would occur. But I thank each and everyone who took time out of your day to respond thus far.

TxAprilMagic, although we may disagree on many of the ideas behind Agrarianism even though I suspect they may only be based on definition and not principle, I thank you for your opposing viewpoint. The opposite view while not always readily accepted often brings a debate to a more truthful and more researched conclusion.

Everyone who offers support and encouragement you are equally as important to the discussion. I have gained a lot of insight and experience thus far. Knowing there are others out there striving to reach a similar goal is very encouraging. I thank each and everyone of you.

Based on what I have learned so far... My definition of Agrarianism is rather simple:

*Agrarianism:* Striving each day to find a less dependent means of survival. Providing for one's self and family through the use of land and animal husbandry and other related skills in a self sustainable and renewable way. Using technology to quicken the pace at times but never depending on it to save you in times of emergency or disaster. Always having the skills, knowledge and tools on hand and in practice to do things the "old way" without electric, petroleum products or other modern energy input. And above all, always making sure God is given the credit for everything manufactured, produced, raised or or otherwise procured. 

I hope this thread can take a turn at this point, and we can discuss less modern ways of doing things so that everyone can benefit from additional knowledge in the old ways.

Angie,

About the pictures... As time allows (with so many projects floating around) I intend to turn the Website I currently use to give the Prep Tracking program away on, into a full feature website outlining my progress and hopefully others peoples progress for others to learn from and participate in. It may take a little time though... I've been on the new homestead less than 4 months and we work at a backbreaking pace around here just to get the basics in place. We are digging the root cellars now (with shovels) and are going to try to get our house built over it before winter. 

The house may be a particular interest to you... 24' x 24' with a loft. A micro house of sorts for a family of four and a part time grown daughter and grand daughter thrown in. Of course a great big wrap around porch (covering three sides) is already on paper to finish it off.


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

wvstuck - great post there.

And the photos - that sounds like a more winter project when less is needed outside (or weather will not let you do).

I totally approve of the house with 3 side porch. That is something I will surely be interested in seeing, and the layout. And did you build it, I need to re-read this thread.

This thread reminds me of the stories my Uncle would tell me of going way out in the Mississippi boonies to his grandparents house in the summer. The farming with a mule, going down to the river/large stream for washing the clothes and the room that had a dirt floor but the grandpa had a bit of anything he thought he could use some time on the home place.

I just want to get off the main merry-go-round and slow down some. What some may envision as small town life and the farms on the outer edges where people came to town on Saturday to trade, and Sunday to go to church, with a social thrown in from time to time.

WVStuck - (are you still in WV?), I enjoy following your progress.


----------



## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

Angie,

Yep still in West Virginia... I can think of no other place to be. Total state population under 2 million, with the largest city being only 60,000

I'm in a very remote area, no neighbors can be seen or heard from the new homestead, but they are available all the time for long winded conversation, help and council.

The house isn't built yet... But we will photograph every step when we do. We are going to try to build with mostly rough cut sawmill lumber from a local mill. We will probably try to trade some of our un-needed pine (they can use it for pulp) to lower the cost of the hardwood (oak and hickory) we need. This should lower the building cost significantly. I'll be milling and building the cabinets myself if time allows.

You are welcome to come spend some time with us and provide labor or just spiritual support.


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Thank you for the invitation. I can read patterns, but never have built anything. 
But I do have a hammer.


----------



## Whydah (Jun 27, 2011)

Somewhere along the way the point I was trying to make was lost. Maybe I didn't express my thoughts well enough.

Those of you out in the hinterlands doing your thing already are engaged in the same lifestyle I lead as a child under the tutelage of my Grandparents. Then, it was just called farming. It also meets the definition of "frugal living" and "self-sufficiency" as many seek to achieve now-a-days. My Grandmother had two stoves in her kitchen - one electric and the other wood. (Oh how I wish I had her wood cook stove!). My Grandfather had two draft horses - "Top" and "Nellie". He often left his tractor parked and, instead, harnessed one of the horses and plowed as he had done most of his life. All I could hear was the horse snort, the sound of the plow slicing through the ground, and my Grandfather commanding "Gee" or "Haw". It was FARMING!

Now some dude writes a book and some (maybe many) have romanticized the notion of farming by now calling it an "Agreian Lifestyle" through the introduction and encouragement of using more primitive methods. In my mind's eye I can picture someone living in an apartment romanticizing this life and making plans to somehow achieve it one day without having any realistic idea the often backbreaking physical work it requires, as those of you already engaged in it know. "Agreian" is now just the new buzz word. Its FARMING! Same as always.

While some think our current society is not sustainable, I will say this... if we still had a real representative republic that adhered to the Constitution as intended, it would be sustainable.


----------



## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

Whydah, "farming" now is what those huge combines do on their single species plantings. Or what is done at the CAFOs. Today's "farmer" doesn't look at all like your grandfather. That's why a different word is needed. Agrarian works.
Now I see why the guy spends the first 4 chapters expressing the definition of certain words as he will use them in the book.


----------



## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

Whydah said:


> "Agreian" is now just the new buzz word. Its FARMING! Same as always.


No, it's not, because the term "farming" itself has come to mean something different. "Farming" now denotes a lifestyle where one raises crops on a commercial scale, invests in equipment worth more than one's house, car and (sometimes) property combined. More often than not, "farmers" raise crops (often extensive monoculture) and buy their food at the grocery store, just like those urban-dwellers. "Agrarian lifestyle" is something different, at least as far as I am concerned. 

You make a good point about people romanticizing it -- they do, without doubt. I certainly did when I was living that urban life. But isn't it wonderful that people still dream of something outside their experience? And don't tell me that the dream is unattainable -- it *IS* backbreaking work, it *IS* constant, and sometimes disappointing -- but it is attainable. If ONE book makes them think, and dream, they'll seek OTHER books. Eventually, they'll get a more balanced view (which will always be skewed toward the dream  ) until they actually *DO* it and learn the reality. Dreams evolve, just like everything else, with experience.

I WANT people to dream of this lifestyle. It's the only way we're ever going to have a chance at stopping the out-of-control locomotive that is the modern, over-consumptive lifestyle without facing the very nasty calamity of an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. Personally, I don't want that kind of SHTF moment, and would far prefer people to dream a little now... maybe that dreaming, and the reading and researching that goes along with it, will prepare a few to weather the storm, and perhaps avert the storm by making some better choices NOW.


----------



## Trisha in WA (Sep 28, 2005)

Tracy Rimmer said:


> No, it's not, because the term "farming" itself has come to mean something different. "Farming" now denotes a lifestyle where one raises crops on a commercial scale, invests in equipment worth more than one's house, car and (sometimes) property combined. More often than not, "farmers" raise crops (often extensive monoculture) and buy their food at the grocery store, just like those urban-dwellers. "Agrarian lifestyle" is something different, at least as far as I am concerned.
> 
> You make a good point about people romanticizing it -- they do, without doubt. I certainly did when I was living that urban life. But isn't it wonderful that people still dream of something outside their experience? And don't tell me that the dream is unattainable -- it *IS* backbreaking work, it *IS* constant, and sometimes disappointing -- but it is attainable. If ONE book makes them think, and dream, they'll seek OTHER books. Eventually, they'll get a more balanced view (which will always be skewed toward the dream  ) until they actually *DO* it and learn the reality. Dreams evolve, just like everything else, with experience.
> 
> I WANT people to dream of this lifestyle. It's the only way we're ever going to have a chance at stopping the out-of-control locomotive that is the modern, over-consumptive lifestyle without facing the very nasty calamity of an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. Personally, I don't want that kind of SHTF moment, and would far prefer people to dream a little now... maybe that dreaming, and the reading and researching that goes along with it, will prepare a few to weather the storm, and perhaps avert the storm by making some better choices NOW.


AMEN Sister! That is exactly what I was trying to say.


----------



## AngieM2 (May 10, 2002)

Good Post Tracy - we cannot lose the dream. And almost all dreams I can think of are a lot of HARD work to attain them. (ballerina, astronaut, small scale farmer, musician.) If it's worth dreaming, it usually is worth the time and effort, or you didn't really want it at all. And most things start small and build to be a success, very few start at the top - that would be a shock to the system.


----------



## Ernie (Jul 22, 2007)

I'd like to revisit the Michael Bunker portion of this thread for a moment ...

I listen to his sermons while I drive. I have read both of his recent books. I follow his blog and I listen to his podcast.

He doesn't have everything right. He's coming from a more Reformed Theology viewpoint than I am and often when he says something and uses scripture to back it up, the scripture is vague and the more canonical commentators (Spurgeon, Barnes, and Henry) don't agree with his interpretation.

But I'm not part of Michael's congregation. I can disagree with him on what I feel are minor doctrinal issues and still draw heavily from his message. God hasn't moved me to drop everything and go sit at his feet. God simply moved me to read the books and try to get a better understanding of them.

If God wishes YOU to live a simpler more agrarian life then He will move your passions so that you desire nothing else. You absolutely will not be happy UNTIL you have done so. I was moved to live a more agrarian life, but ultimately I have pulled back from selling farm products heavily and now simply aim to provide enough for my own family and to putter about my humble workshop working on my crafts. That is where I have been led.

You're not going to be led from Michael Bunker's books. You're not going to be led from this forum. Oprah isn't going to lead you and neither is Congress. Only God will lead you and He will do it by tugging at your passions until you are simply NOT HAPPY doing anything else other than what He desires for you. 

That's something to think about if you find yourself not happy now.


----------



## wvstuck (Sep 19, 2008)

Well Said Ernie! Well Said.


----------



## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

Ernie said:


> I'd like to revisit the Michael Bunker portion of this thread for a moment ...
> 
> I listen to his sermons while I drive. I have read both of his recent books. I follow his blog and I listen to his podcast.
> 
> ...


To hear His call we must first give up our pride... Part of Michael Bunker's message is the conveniences of the grid are keeping many so distracted from Him they aren't really listening any longer... 

How many of the comments dealt with "I couldn't do without this or that etc." I wonder if God spoke to some of them _personally_ whether "this or that" would seem so important any longer...


----------



## 10kids (Jun 24, 2010)

Regarding the book Off Off-Grid. We read it and it did change our life, because it made us think and talk. Now every time we do something using an outside source...like the electricity to be typing on here right now, we think...what would we do if we did not have the outside source, or when my husband puts diesel in his tractor, etc. For years we have been limiting our "outside source" dependency, with the ultimate goal of being self-sufficient. This book gave us great food for thought, but like all the preppers/survivalists/homesteaders/agrarians we know...we are only sheep to our true Shepherd and his book is the Bible...we are not non-thinking followers of fads, gimics or even men.


----------



## Sanza (Sep 8, 2008)

It's all good and well to have a dream and to work hard to attain it, but..... I feel by the time most people attain their dream of being self sufficient they are too old to work hard enough to sustain themselves year in year out and those romantic dreams fly out the window. I would really like to see some of the posters on this thread in about 5 years time and see if they still have the same dreams and ideals and if they've succeeded in living off off grid. 
Hard, backbreaking work ages a person real quick! There's been a lot of people posting about life changing circumstances recently (ie. broken legs etc), and it just shows how unexpected events can quickly derail your plans and dreams. 
I know I cannot do the things now that I did 10 years ago when I moved to this farm. So people have to stop believing in fairy tales that once they move to their land everything will be easy for the rest of their lives.


----------



## NewGround (Dec 19, 2010)

Wouldn't you describe that Fukuoka guy's One Straw Farming as off grid? Certainly there is work involved in anything including modern "farming". The idea of Fukuoka, permaculture et. all fits in with the off grid idea too... 

If you are sustenance farming the tasks seem a bit easier. By that I only mean I don't need 60 acres of corn for myself etc. The volume of food production goes down. The book Possum Living also had some good info about what's needed versus the wants of this world. 

Swinging a hammer for a living is tough too, ask me how I know...


----------



## Tarheel (Jan 24, 2010)

Sanza said:


> It's all good and well to have a dream and to work hard to attain it, but..... I feel by the time most people attain their dream of being self sufficient they are too old to work hard enough to sustain themselves year in year out and those romantic dreams fly out the window. I would really like to see some of the posters on this thread in about 5 years time and see if they still have the same dreams and ideals and if they've succeeded in living off off grid.
> Hard, backbreaking work ages a person real quick! There's been a lot of people posting about life changing circumstances recently (ie. broken legs etc), and it just shows how unexpected events can quickly derail your plans and dreams.
> I know I cannot do the things now that I did 10 years ago when I moved to this farm. So people have to stop believing in fairy tales that once they move to their land everything will be easy for the rest of their lives.


I disagree with part of it. I got pushed into this life style (woke up) 6 years ago. We lived in town and the State Hwy Dept wanted to build a new road at my front door. We wanted no part of that so off to the woods we came. 

The light finally came on to me when all the business around me started to close. I have been self-employed for the last 21 years.

Now to the part of HARD work. When I left town to start my homestead I was a little overweight (20 lbs.). I was so busy with work and family that I was not eating like I should etc. This lifestyle has improved my health, my mood, my family life, my church life- etc. Yea, I may get sick tomorrow but right now I feel the best I ever have.

I look back at my ancestors, (all farmers) both sets lived good long life's. Both of my grandmothers lived to be 99 and both grandfathers were 80's. The old saying that hard work never hurt anyone is true. I guarantee you that working in the garden is better for you than setting in front of the tv any day.

Now this lifestyle may not be for everyone but I sure enjoy it !


----------



## Gabriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Sanza said:


> Hard, backbreaking work ages a person real quick!


It sure does, I welded, sandblasted and painted for 8 years and it wore me down. 



Sanza said:


> I know I cannot do the things now that I did 10 years ago when I moved to this farm. So people have to stop believing in fairy tales that once they move to their land everything will be easy for the rest of their lives.


Nobody is "self sufficient". We're all dependent on both family and community. But... I think things would be _somewhat_ easier if we all knew what our ancestors knew. The more I learn, the easier this lifestyle becomes, it's hard to put a price tag on knowledge and experience. It would also be easier if I had neighbors that were like minded, so we could swap help.


----------



## Tracy Rimmer (May 9, 2002)

Sanza said:


> So people have to stop believing in fairy tales that once they move to their land everything will be easy for the rest of their lives.


Anyone who goes into homesteading and self-sufficiency on ANY level, off grid or not, needs to get over that idea.

It is not easy. It is much more REWARDING than urban life; the work you do directly benefits YOU and your family, rather than going through a middle man (a boss) before benefit (a salary) gets to you, but it's anything but "easy". I suspect anyone who thinks that from their high-rise apartment would end up failing at this, no matter how "off grid" or "on grid" they were.


----------

