# Consequences of building w/o a permit and getting caught?



## dheat

What are the consequences of building without a permit and getting "caught" after construction is completed? Will the local government condemn the building? Make you complete the permitting process and demonstrate you build to code? Fine you? All of the above and then some? Has anyone here, "been there, done that"?

Thanks,

Doug


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## salmonslayer

Where we used to live in Alaska you were subject to fines and they would literally make you remove the illegal construction. That was usually applied to sheds, porches, decks etc, but the fines were prohibitive and the rebuilding process could be a nightmare because you were then marked by the city building department for special scruitiny.

Its a big risk in most communities with building codes and when you go to sell your place most buyers want an independant engineering inspection which will include an as built survey etc.


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## palani

Years ago I recall hearing that in Alaska, while building a cabin was permitted in the boonies, the cabin had to be built to certain standards. The zoning terrorists would fly around, spot a cabin, if they determined it was out of spec then it would be set alight (with contents) and the variance would no longer be a problem.

Better to have a charred spot on the landscape than an illegal structure.


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## ||Downhome||

here they make you tear it down and fine you. and Im sure like SS points out you will get extra special attention in the next round. 

they have to inspect every phase of building, you recive (purchase) permits all through the process first inspection,second inspection and final. not all in a blanket either plumbing,electrical,hvac,roof and the actual framing and finishing. I'm sure theres more I only ever delt with a few phases as a worker so Im sure I left out a few things.


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## KeithBC

It depends on your jurisdiction and what you actually built.

If you built to code but just didn't get it permitted or inspected, they'll likely make you do the paperwork, get the inspections, pay the fees and you'll be okay. A worse consequence is if your house burns down - your insurance could decide not to pay up, since you didn't follow the regulations.

'Course in some jurisdictions, they may be [email protected] and make you tear it all down.


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## wyld thang

KeithBC said:


> It depends on your jurisdiction and what you actually built.
> 
> If you built to code but just didn't get it permitted or inspected, they'll likely make you do the paperwork, get the inspections, pat the fees and you'll be okay. A worse consequence is if your house burns down - your insurance could decide not to pay up, since you didn't follow the regulations.
> 
> 'Course in some jurisdictions, they may be [email protected] and make you tear it all down.


yup, this. And it just depends on your location as well, how well you are concealed and how well you get along with neighbors--it's easy to tick one off and they are smart enough to call the building inspectors. 

Here(in a rural county) you can build a 20 x20 outbuilding with no permit. SO I know of a few people who began their house that way, and gradually added stuff in.

Most of the trouble of not building to code(outside of tax roles etc) is either building stupid, it won't get insured, or you can't sell it with the same sort of value as a code building(if you can include it at all in the assessment of the value of the property for a loan).

Otherwise, I know my house was built without a permit (to "enough" code) and grandfathered in and "forgiven"/approved after the fact when they wanted to sell it--30 years ago. I had a neighbor who lived in a garden shed, and one who turned a pole barn into a house(over the course of 20 years...he did get the final check off on everything, but he laid low, and in dragging his feet for sooooo long, got put on the back shelf as it were and left alone.)

ANother trick is to have the inpsector come out on the worst day, when things are muddy and wet and cold, and then talk about how the weather is going to stay that way for the next month, and keep moaning about the mud and stuff as you follow them around and then the inspector will check you off so they don't have to come back out


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## Molly Mckee

One of our neighbors did that about 10 years ago---by the time the county got through with him it was cheaper to tear his house down than pay the fines and permits. It was built to code--just not permitted.
Don't forget than many counties are using photo's from the air to check properties for violations.
If you ever want to sell you have to sigh a statement that everything is according to code and permitted. Molly


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## Lizza

Depends on where you live but if you live in a place that you have to have a permit or their will be fines/consequences, it is much cheaper and faster to just take the permits out. We bought a place with an illegal structure, what a nightmare. There solution was for us to burn it, we saved it, but it was a toss up and it was very expensive for us to keep it but since we hadn't paid for it in the first place it was worth it (we also had to hire a lawyer to help us). Here they can charge you $1,000 a day for non-compliance, every day that you go past their set date for you to do something. Someone in town fought the County here and they sold his house on the auction blocks. Just don't do it, take out the permits.


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## Ernie

You need to check into this ahead of time for your particular area. Don't trust whatever information you get in a thread as you're not likely to be finding people in your own county/city limits who can give you accurate info.

I'm not against building without a permit, and in fact I'm generally for it. However you need to know the consequences before you do so.


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## ChristieAcres

I am with Ernie, would sure NOT want to live the consequences of the wrong choice. It pays to know your local building codes (UBC's don't cover every type of structure). What they don't cover, can be legally condemned and torn down. That could happen anywhere there are UBC's in place. A neighbor called and we were chatting about the garage he was building, just up the street. He told me that he was debating getting a permit or NOT. I told him that if he didn't, it sure better be to code specs, and meet all the requirements. I already see a potential issue for him, as he has a view property, there is a steep slope, and I don't think he has met the setback requirement. All your local variables have to be covered... Our UBC's are changing and will apply to all structures built without a permit, except for those grandfathered in... There will be a lot of buildings condemned and torn down.

My DH's brother built an incredible 1,200 sq foot treehouse, about 10 years ago. Here, there are no UBC's for treehouses... When he died, unexpectantly, the County came in, and condemned it. My in-laws paid to have it dismantled piece-by-piece, were given no time extension, threatened with fine, while still in mourning. Almost every single piece of wood has been used by us or them. Since there were some local gov officials who had violated the limit of size (200 sq feet is allowed for treehouses & they aren't allowed to be lived in...)? They are now working to get UBC's for them. Too late for "Paul's" work of art...


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## Terri

It depends on the area.

Where I live they give you a big fine PER DAY until you have met all of their requirements. Depending on what it is, they might also make you tear it down, ESPECIALLY if it is not to code.


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## highlands

In a case in a town to the south of us they forced the home owner to tear down his very expensive house. Frankly it was a personal battle between people and a waste of resources.

I would suggest not living or building where you have to get zoning permits, construction permits, etc. Then it won't be an issue.


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## arabian knight

Not too many of those left. Which is a good thing.


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## Hoop

I recall an older guy in town took out a building permit for a garage.....and then built a house. It was not built to code. He was given 3 choices, tear it down, bring it up to code, or sell it to someone that could bring it up to code.
He sold the house at a "for next to nothing price". 

I suspect the consequences of building w/o a permit and getting caught vary from county to county, and state to state. 

For the record. My Father worked as the zoning administrator in his county for 15 years. He told me 99.9% of all zoning violations were reported by the neighbors.


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## hotzcatz

The requirements for permits vary by district. In our district, if you build something without a permit and they find you, they ask that you bring the building up to code and get the paperwork. It is a more difficult time getting the paperwork for an already built building, though, since they check everything on those buildings. If you don't bring it up to code and get permits, there are fines and eventually the building violation is torn down.

Also, in our district, banks won't loan on a structure unless it has a permit so un-permitted buildings sell for a lot less than those which have the proper paperwork. I'm sure insurance agencies have their own rules regarding permitted/unpermitted structures, but I don't know what they are.


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## Michael W. Smith

With today's technology of satellites, building a structure without the proper permits leads you to the question of WHEN you will be caught, not IF you are caught!

I really don't think it's worth it to live your life as you continually wonder "Is this the day I get a vist from the authority?"


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## Ernie

Michael W. Smith said:


> I really don't think it's worth it to live your life as you continually wonder "Is this the day I get a vist from the authority?"


Welcome to my world!


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## palani

arabian knight said:


> Not too many of those left. Which is a good thing.


Which "code" were YOU constructed to?

If you prove to be not wired properly could you be dismantled for a new improved model?


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## arabian knight

My Dad was a plumbing inspector for a large city in WI. and I have worked side by side with a USDA inspector at one of the places I worked at. Most of my family has been in the plumbing and heating business for years so inspections and being around them and seeing just what and why they are needed is where I am coming from. So anybody that is doing something to get around being inspected and or the proper permits gets no good post or sympathy from me.


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## Ernie

I believe that building codes should exist and must be enforced _in a city._ You have large amounts of people living close together and I don't want my home burned down because the idiot next to me can't tell a black wire from a red one.

However in areas zones agricultural I don't see why they exist at all. If I burn down my house it's not likely to spread to the nearest neighbor (400+ yards away). 

Most of the building codes seem specifically designed to do nothing more than keep land prices artificially high.


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## stanb999

arabian knight said:


> My Dad was a plumbing inspector for a large city in WI. and I have worked side by side with a USDA inspector at one of the places I worked at. Most of my family has been in the plumbing and heating business for years so inspections and being around them and seeing just what and why they are needed is where I am coming from. So anybody that is doing something to get around being inspected and or the proper permits gets no good post or sympathy from me.


Ask yourself a few simple little questions.

Did the added costs of code requirements (reported 20%) slow construction? How many construction workers would still be working if costs didn't get so High? How long till the little NAZI's bankrupt themselves and their little towns due to the expense of enforcement? It has already happened to towns in PA.... It will happen else where.


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## Navotifarm

The question is too broad because all answers will have to start out with "it depends." In agricultural forestal districts you are "allowed" to build sheds or animal housing or what not without a permit, but just a very short distance away, say, in a trailer park, you can only have a certain size of shed under certain conditions. It also makes a difference if you are in a subdivision or gated community or not because in addition to the state, county or local regulations, there are the subdivision by-laws. I know of one case in Page Valley, Luray, there was a small subdivision along the Shenandoah River. the people there had all agreed to a specific set-back so they had a nice trail along the river to walk or ride their horses on. One of the residents built a huge, elaborate cabin in the set-back, with all his regular permits. His neighbors fiendishly waited till he finished and then sued him. He had a choice of tearing down his home or moving it back to where it should have been. If you are talking about a HOME, many things go into the process such as well, septic, electricity all requiring permits in addition to the building itself. As has been pointed out, with modern day satellite technology there are on-going photos being taken. If you look at some of the google earth ones it is stunning what detail they have! Of course there will always be wise guys putting up camouflage and digging secret tunnels and $50 underground houses (hooray for them) but in terms of building something that will costs you money and labor and time, it's better to get ALL the permits in advance. And a caution -- watch the timing or they might expire and the code be changed and you are sol! 
Another point has been mentioned here. Often times people do housing changes or improvements without permits. When the house is put on the market or a neighbor blows the whistle, this will come to light. Sometimes the "improvement" is retroactively given a permit which the person pays for. Sometimes the work all has to come out. I get lists of the building permits every week for a nearby county and sometimes I will see a permit has been given for a certain project and there is the little notation "already built." Some of this has to do with improvements to a property making taxes go up, so the inspectors are really on their toes on some aspects. On the other hand, little buildings for farm animals are really difficult to have standards and inspections for, for quite a few of them slide by as long as the main house, barn, stable, etc have been done "correctly."
Codes for different things don't match though, so people with rv's can have some pretty sophisticated solar equipment a stationary home cannot have.


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## palani

stanb999 said:


> How long till the little NAZI's bankrupt themselves and their little towns due to the expense of enforcement?


Not only inspection and enforcement but design.

There is a Frank Lloyd Wright house not too far from us. We toured it last year. The master bathroom had a single fixture ... a combination tub, lav and stool. The lav was a box that covered the stool and contained the spigot for the tub as well as a compartment for the TP. It swiveled out of the way when there was business to be done. There were only three connections: hot water, cold water, drain. It looked like it came right out of a Pulman train car.

The guide said the reason these things didn't catch on was because the plumbers would have lost a LOT of money and the unions wouldn't tolerate it.


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## ronbre

one time we were told ..you should have gotten a permit for that...we said..oh really, we didn't know (we didn't)..and they said..next time get a permit..that was it


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## Lazy J

Ernie said:


> You need to check into this ahead of time for your particular area. Don't trust whatever information you get in a thread as you're not likely to be finding people in your own county/city limits who can give you accurate info.


Great Post!!!

"I read on the Internet" isn't a justifiable excuse.


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## farminghandyman

permits are just taxes, (if permits are deemed necessary they should only cost the filing fee),

I think there should be some codes, but what is reasonable, the many times the reason they have code changes is the money made in selling ever one new books, the codes dreamed up by independents not government, and then adopted by government, (yes I know there needs to be changes do to technology, but why a whole new book, when a few key pages could be sent out to replace the ones with changes, 

and if your building for your self there is no reason for inspectors, (they should be available if the owner wants it inspected, but is not that why work men are licensed? if they do not know how to do the work then they should not have a license or it should be revoked. I think projects that are for public or to sell, should be inspected, 

I personally think that inspections on private property are in violation of the 4th amendment, 'The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.' 
personal property right have been so violated by the state and feds,

IMO personal property right have been so violated by the local, state, and feds,


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## PhilJohnson

I built my first "place" with out a permit. When I got done it looked like a run down shack that had been sitting there for the last 40 years. I never got bothered although I had a few things on my side:

1. The place was very hard to see from the road
2. The surrounding area is full of hillbillys with shack looking houses

Later that summer I moved on a mobile home. The mobile home was moved three different times on my property. When I went to sell my property I found the county was just about to go after me for not getting a permit and putting the mobile home in a wetland. Suddenly I went from having an acre and a half of wetland to 4 acres. I had the old maps and showed the Zoning commissioner. He shrugged his shoulders and said I'd have to move the mobile home. I sold my property and took the mobile home with it so nothing happened. Had I stayed there I am sure I would have been nailed with fines. 

Since Wisconsin adopted UBC standard there is not a place left in this state where one can build without having their structure inspected. I looked into the code myself and most of the code can be ignored if your not connecting to the grid. I believe this is because the Amish fought a legal battle with the state so they could continue building their traditional style homes. The rest of the stuff is mostly stuff I would do anyway. I wouldn't use a 2x4 for a floor joist or a 1x1 for studs. I would build under a tree canopy myself and try and make my place blend in with it's surroundings. The less people know about what I am doing the better.

I don't agree with having codes and permits unless it is an urban environment. In rural areas your only going to hurt yourself with your own stupidity. The government's job shouldn't be to protect people from themselves.


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## plowjockey

Ernie said:


> I believe that building codes should exist and must be enforced _in a city._ You have large amounts of people living close together and I don't want my home burned down because the idiot next to me can't tell a black wire from a red one.
> 
> However in areas zones agricultural I don't see why they exist at all. If I burn down my house it's not likely to spread to the nearest neighbor (400+ yards away).
> 
> Most of the building codes seem specifically designed to do nothing more than keep land prices artificially high.


A home not up to code, regardless of location, could collapse or burn down, with the occupants sleeping soundly inside. This is the real reason for building and electrical codes.

The distinct possibility of a property tax assessment/hike was an afterthought.


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## PhilJohnson

plowjockey said:


> A home not up to code, regardless of location, could collapse or burn down, with the occupants sleeping soundly inside. This is the real reason for building and electrical codes.


Yeah it is a wonder how human kind ever survived without codes  I see plenty of new home construction and wonder if it is going to last as long as my parent's 100 year old farm house. Particle board walls, particle board I-beams, and treated wood foundations, all up to code and it all has the potential to be dangerous to future occupants 50 years from now. Common sense would tell someone that building with something that sucks up water like a sponge would be a bad idea, common sense would also tell you that wooden foundations are retarded. I'd be more inclined to believe the mantra that codes are there to protect people if it didn't seem like it was written to protect home builder's profit.


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## Terri

PhilJohnson said:


> Yeah it is a wonder how human kind ever survived without codes


It MIGHT have been in ancient Babylon where they had a basic building code: If your roof fell in and killed somebody, they squashed the builder in a similar way. So apparently poor construction has been around for a long time!


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## pinfeather

In my area it's especially hard to get permits for "alternative" building methods as in stack wall, straw bale, composting toilets, gray water systems, etc. that I think its worth it to build without permits and pay fines later. I'd also think an owner/builder would build much safer for his family than a contractor building as a job using conventional methods and permitting process. JMO.


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## postroad

Really old building codes.

Deuteronomy 22:8
When you build a new house, make a parapet around your roof so that you may not bring the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.


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## texican

I haven't got a clue. I live in a Free State. Only the slaves we concentrate together for their own safety have codes/permits (some folks call em towns).

Outside of the confines of towns, you can do as you please... tarpaper shack, teepee, hole in the ground, castle, whatever.

Building codes specs are the bare minimum for safety... going 'under' the code on walls, floors, and roofs, and you're going to have leaning walls, bouncy floors, and sagging roofs. However, if you can't afford the luxury of 'code', you can do as you please. Free Men sometimes make stupid mistakes, but such is the life of a Free Man. I'd rather make my own mistakes, instead of some safety 'natzi' forcing me to avoid my mistakes... I learn by making mistakes...


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## arabian knight

Or you can die along with other members of your family and or friends that maybe over.
Nice thing to look forward to eh?


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## Lizza

pinfeather said:


> In my area it's especially hard to get permits for "alternative" building methods as in stack wall, straw bale, composting toilets, gray water systems, etc. that I think its worth it to build without permits and pay fines later. I'd also think an owner/builder would build much safer for his family than a contractor building as a job using conventional methods and permitting process. JMO.


I think maybe you are thinking about this one wrong.........if it is hard to get permits for "alternative" type buildings and they find out, there will be no "fines" (well, there might be), they will make you tear it down and/or take it out and want proof you did. 

I mean of course it depends on the area, that is a given, but if the area is known as being "hard to get permits", that means to me, IMHO, that it is saying they are not going to be very friendly if you are caught and something that you wouldn't have gotten a permit for in the first place, well, they certainly aren't going to just let it go. At least not here they sure wouldn't. Our County has an entire division for code compliance and they aren't known for their warm and fuzzy demeanor. A few times over the years folks have tried to build such things as straw bale buildings, not even living in them, but accessory type buildings, well those folks no longer have those outbuildings anymore, there was no "just getting the permits" because the permits were not going to be issued in the first place, only way to comply was to tear them down.


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## ||Downhome||

arabian knight said:


> Or you can die along with other members of your family and or friends that maybe over.
> Nice thing to look forward to eh?


now wouldnt that really be up to or on me ? hey I'm single as long as I issued a disclaimer to sleep over guests, it should really fall to me what goes on here huh? now if I do it for some one else for a fee thats a whole different animal. 
though I will point out I'm no stranger to the trades and one more thing they dont build houses or anything like they use to, even with codes! all codes are is the bare minimum of how chinzy you can go before you endanger someone!


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## ||Downhome||

I suppose I'm just feeling a slight bit nasty tonight so well we are on this particular subject let me share.

I am 36 years of age and even when I was 18 I did not need nor request the protection of the government. neither the local,state nor federal! well except 
maybe for the federal troops vs foreign powers little different ball of wax.
that is one thing I do value.

other wise those in power the people that they are really responsible to protect they do not! (children,disabled etc.!)
those people that are not able to care or facilitate for themselves the ones that truly need protection! 
grown and sensible people ( at the least should be by all accounts, and I'm sure one good lesson and they will be or just the fact they are responsible for themselves should be!! ) do not need the government to babysit them in any shape size or matter!


i suppose no number of permits shall ever be able to fix stupid, only one cure for that!


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## Patt

So glad I live where I do! We build and tear down and improve stuff out here all the time and nobody gives a rip and nobody is out to line their pockets with fees in our little county so besides maybe building a house from start to finish there aren't any building permits needed. 

Heck the place we live in now wouldn't be legal in half the country! I find it funny that those who will rant about gov't intrusion in their lives in one area are screaming for it in another.....


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## Patt

arabian knight said:


> Or you can die along with other members of your family and or friends that maybe over.
> Nice thing to look forward to eh?


This is rich! ound:


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## Common Tator

I realize they charge different amounts for building permits in different areas. A friend of ours built a tiny 1 bedroom house in his back yard in Riverside California for his mother in law. The building permit fees were $20,000.

Government greed is one reason many people will do anything possible to avoid dealing with building inspectors.


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## texican

arabian knight said:


> Or you can die along with other members of your family and or friends that maybe over.
> Nice thing to look forward to eh?


You know, I may be mistaken... won't be the first time, and certainly not the last time....... But, homes built with codes & Permits... fall down all the time, they burn to the ground all the time... they're subject to the same vagaries of physics that homes built without codes or inspections/permits are. A piece of paper won't stop termites, hurricanes, tornadoes, fires, etc.

My home was never inspected. It was overbuilt... like I mentioned, the code is the bare minimum for safety... I doubled up on pretty much everything they required. Stud every 16"? I have them on 8's. #12 or 14 wire? mines #10. Yada yada yada...

Had a tornado make a swipe right over my house in 94, lost a big swath of trees... one 200 year old oak missed my house by inches... didn't hurt my home at all... one door blew open, replaced a single board, and I was good to go.

My new home won't be inspected. It will be built to last 500 years. 12 to 18" solid stone walls, insect resistant beams, mostly fireproof/rotproof walls and floors (hoping I can swing a slate roof, to make it a trifecta. I'll put my home up against any in the country for 'safety' sake. I'll not pay plumbers, electricians, carpenters up to 50$/hour when I can do the work just as good.


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## Patt

texican said:


> You know, I may be mistaken... won't be the first time, and certainly not the last time....... But, homes built with codes & Permits... fall down all the time, they burn to the ground all the time... they're subject to the same vagaries of physics that homes built without codes or inspections/permits are. A piece of paper won't stop termites, hurricanes, tornadoes, fires, etc.


I wish I had pictures of a whole neighborhood of homes in MS that fell apart back about 10 years ago. One was a 2 story and the whole brick front fell off. Another one was a split level that split right down the center. All brand new with all the proper permits and codes met.


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## just_sawing

Building codes can be good or bad. I have counties above me that have a code against people using my Sawmill Lumber for a structure that is livable. I checked to see what I would have to do to get my lumber to code.
1 Have it under 19% moisture content (No Problem)
2 Have the lumber meet grade standards (No problem I am selling lumber 4 grades above what you buy at the lumber stores.
3 Pay a private association $330.00 per month for the right to put an ink stamp on the wood.
Lumber codes are nothing more than a Mafia rip off that has a powerful Lobby in congress


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## Ernie

Yeah, and the quality of commercial wood that's been stamped and has met those conditions is just junk. It warps, splits, and has more knots than a piece of rope in a Boy Scout camp.

I believe that if people could see the entire sweep of the infringement upon the free market and our individual rights, the revolution would start in the next ten minutes.


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## plowjockey

PhilJohnson said:


> *Yeah it is a wonder how human kind ever survived without codes * I see plenty of new home construction and wonder if it is going to last as long as my parent's 100 year old farm house. Particle board walls, particle board I-beams, and treated wood foundations, all up to code and it all has the potential to be dangerous to future occupants 50 years from now. Common sense would tell someone that building with something that sucks up water like a sponge would be a bad idea, common sense would also tell you that wooden foundations are retarded. I'd be more inclined to believe the mantra that codes are there to protect people if it didn't seem like it was written to protect home builder's profit.


Huh? The NEC has been in place for 113 years. NBC 105 years.

You could ask those who surviived in the apartment houses in earthquake-stricken Haiti, if they are still alive. Or, check with those that live in the CA hills, who did not have fireproof roofing and siding.

Building/electrical codes cover design safety and any modern building material will have to meed the codes. It would be impossible to build more than a few houses with native hardwoods any more, anyway. What are they supposed to use? Hardwood will rot also, it it get wet long enough. I've seen 30 year old installed particle board that looks about the same as new (cheap). No reason it shouldn't last forever, if it does not get wet.

Most common standards are there for a reason and make common sense, at least to me. I always try to build or wire to standards. 

It's when the building inspector forwards the plans to the tax assessor, that irks most people.


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## plowjockey

farminghandyman said:


> and if your building for your self there is no reason for inspectors, (they should be available if the owner wants it inspected, but is not that why work men are licensed? if they do not know how to do the work then they should not have a license or it should be revoked. I think projects that are for public or to sell, should be inspected,


How would this even work?

An Electrician who quotes you a job price is licenced, but he knows he can save money by using 14ga wire, where 8ga may be required by "code". Hey, it's inside the wall, who will know? Also, no one in the know, is checking it.

What happens when you plug in your welder?


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## PhilJohnson

plowjockey said:


> Huh? The NEC has been in place for 113 years. NBC 105 years.


I'd reckon human kind has been around a lot longer that the NEC or the NBC. I can also say more than 3/4s of the houses built around here were built by builders who never heard of the NEC or NBC (including mine). 



plowjockey said:


> You could ask those who surviived in the apartment houses in earthquake-stricken Haiti, if they are still alive. Or, check with those that live in the CA hills, who did not have fireproof roofing and siding.


Haiti's problem is lack of money. Codes will do nothing to help a nation that eats dirt cakes for substinence. Get rid of the poverty and safe housing will follow. 

Short of building underground or a house out of cement there is nothing that is fire proof. Certain areas are more risk prone, it should be up to the person on how much risk *they* want to take. If you want people to build better houses maybe you should offer to donate money and time otherwise put up and shut up. It is always easy to tell people what to do, not so easy to be pro-active and help them.



plowjockey said:


> Building/electrical codes cover design safety and any modern building material will have to meed the codes. It would be impossible to build more than a few houses with native hardwoods any more, anyway. What are they supposed to use? Hardwood will rot also, it it get wet long enough. I've seen 30 year old installed particle board that looks about the same as new (cheap). No reason it shouldn't last forever, if it does not get wet.


Like anything houses need maintanence. In the case of the farm house I live in now the folks forgot that one should fix a roof once it starts leaking. I had holes a foot in diameter covered by wood paneling. Had the house been made out of partical board the rot would have been much more extensive and possibly made the house unsafe to even walk in. But since it was made out of hard wood I could safely make repairs without fear of my house crumbling into rotted saw dust.



plowjockey said:


> Most common standards are there for a reason and make common sense, at least to me. I always try to build or wire to standards.


With all this common sense going around I wonder how the heck things like wooden basements can be allowed.


----------



## plowjockey

Patt said:


> I wish I had pictures of a whole neighborhood of homes in MS that fell apart back about 10 years ago. One was a 2 story and the whole brick front fell off. Another one was a split level that split right down the center. All brand new with all the proper permits and codes met.


Many new codes are governed politically, pressured by business, for sure. That's why stick built, shingled roof houses, blow down time after time in hurricane areas.

Some areas (Chicago or Boston, I think) do not allow ABS plastic drain pipe, that is used nearly everywhere else in the U.S. They have to use the much more expensive (to buy and install) cast iron drain pipe. This is forced by pressure by plumbers unions, since they love expensive and expensive to install, verses cheap and easy.


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## tamilee

pinfeather said:


> In my area it's especially hard to get permits for "alternative" building methods as in stack wall, straw bale, composting toilets, gray water systems, etc. that I think its worth it to build without permits and pay fines later. I'd also think an owner/builder would build much safer for his family than a contractor building as a job using conventional methods and permitting process. JMO.


Well, here in Nc ,in the county I live, without permits you face fines and cannot inhabited the residence. These can be hefty fines, some can be assessed daily.

This issue has been in the news a lot over the past couple of years. People who hired a certain builder could not move into their home because the builder had not obtained the proper permits. That is still in litigation. 
In my county it is absolutely against the law to have a grey water system but you can have composting toilets . Go figure.
If the building method is not approved it could be deemed unihabitable or even condemned. 
If you are adamant about an alternative method of bulding you could list the property as non-profit for educational research, provided you actually have some sort of educational activity going on . 
An example would be something like "Green Building Research Center of ( whatever county you reside in) ". This is how others have side-stepped the bias against alternative building methods.
This suggestion was made to me when I posted a query on alternative building website. I wanted to build an earthship or dry block house.


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## plowjockey

PhilJohnson said:


> I don't need to put, or shut up. I don't want to visit "better" homes, just safe one's and for the most part, basic building codes ensure that. And if anyone actually reads up on them, many of them probably cost little or maybe even nothing more to implement, as they follow commons sense building practices anyway.
> 
> The amount of risk "anyone" want to take if fine, as long as no one else is ever involved and therefore may be at risk.
> 
> Would I want my kid's to spend the night in a neighbor's basement bedroom, that did not bother to have an egress window and therefore in the event of a fire, there is only one way out? I don't think so.
> 
> One common theme in this threads, is that people do not want to be told what to do, but are probably happy that other's are told what to do, so that one can be protected from dangers.
> 
> How about a movie theatre with one, or even better, NO fire exits? How about no sprinklers or emergency exits at the Walmart? Should it not be their right, to build them this way?


----------



## Win07_351

Patt said:


> I find it funny that those who will rant about gov't intrusion in their lives in one area are screaming for it in another.....


Just goes to prove that many people still prefer the chains of security over freedom.


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## clovis

I'll chime in too, with the same kinds of posts:

A guy got a permit for a barn, and then turned it into a house. It cost him more in legal fees and fines than it cost him to build it, and even though he was allowed to keep the building, the county had already condemned it, and was seeking that it be torn down.

In a town just north of us, the city removed a very expensive fence...about 40 feet of it, because it went over the city/utility easement. This happened in a nice subdivision. The city workers cut it down with chainsaws, and then sent the bill to the homeowner. I bet he paid it, because they would put a lien on the home if he didn't.

Many years ago, there was a $400,000 home built on a lake lot in Indiana. The owner did not get a sewer permit first, and the house sat empty for many years, and they couldn't sell the place because of the lack of sewer.

All three of the examples I've given were made worse because the govt authority not only made an issue of these things, but also because they could....in a big, big way.


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## plowjockey

clovis said:


> I'll chime in too, with the same kinds of posts:
> 
> A guy got a permit for a barn, and then turned it into a house. It cost him more in legal fees and fines than it cost him to build it, and even though he was allowed to keep the building, the county had already condemned it, and was seeking that it be torn down.
> 
> In a town just north of us, the city removed a very expensive fence...about 40 feet of it, because it went over the city/utility easement. This happened in a nice subdivision. The city workers cut it down with chainsaws, and then sent the bill to the homeowner. I bet he paid it, because they would put a lien on the home if he didn't.
> 
> Many years ago, there was a $400,000 home built on a lake lot in Indiana. The owner did not get a sewer permit first, and the house sat empty for many years, and they couldn't sell the place because of the lack of sewer.
> 
> *All three of the examples I've given were made worse because the govt authority not only made an issue of these things, but also because they could....in a big, big way*.


True, but they are also three really good examples, of why you should have all of your ducks, in a row, before starting any building project.


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## poppy

No permits here except septic. One idiot did have a large pole barn built too close to the road on a county highway and had to move it. He built it on highway right of way going into a curve. It was a vision hazard for drivers.


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## farmergirl

If I hire a "homebuilder" to build my house, then there would be the requisite permits.

If I build it myself with friends? No permits required. Heck, I could live in my barn if I wanted to :shrug:

We never, ever, ever would have purchased a farm property in an area that had any zoning restrictions whatsoever. We had some modest restrictions at our last property (no hogs, only a certain # of horses per acre, etc...) and even though the restrictions didn't interfere with what we wanted to do at that time, we knew that we might want to pursue different things in the future and didn't want to have to move in order to do them!

I rather like that my horse barn sits so close to our house that I can call "Good morning ponies!" to the horses from my bathroom window.


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## PhilJohnson

plowjockey said:


> I don't need to put, or shut up. I don't want to visit "better" homes, just safe one's and for the most part, basic building codes ensure that. And if anyone actually reads up on them, many of them probably cost little or maybe even nothing more to implement, as they follow commons sense building practices anyway.
> 
> The amount of risk "anyone" want to take if fine, as long as no one else is ever involved and therefore may be at risk.
> 
> Would I want my kid's to spend the night in a neighbor's basement bedroom, that did not bother to have an egress window and therefore in the event of a fire, there is only one way out? I don't think so.


You have that choice. This is about freedom of choice. You can choose not to have your kids in that situation. Somewhere along the line people forgot about personal responsibility and instead rely on external protections because they can't assess a bad situation. If you wander into an alligator farm don't complain when you get bit.



plowjockey said:


> One common theme in this threads, is that people do not want to be told what to do, but are probably happy that other's are told what to do, so that one can be protected from dangers.


There is only one way your going to be endangered by someone's little crackerbox of a house out in the middle of nowhere, and that is by you choosing to be there. In town I can see a point to building codes because a house falling over could hit a neighbor's house or fire jumping from one house to the next. 



plowjockey said:


> How about a movie theatre with one, or even better, NO fire exits? How about no sprinklers or emergency exits at the Walmart? Should it not be their right, to build them this way?


Apples to oranges, a person's private residence is not open to the public. Joe blow can't walk off the street and into my house and if he did he would be liable to get shot which would be much more hazardous to his health than any shoddy construction could ever be.


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## whatrset

just_sawing said:


> Building codes can be good or bad. I have counties above me that have a code against people using my Sawmill Lumber for a structure that is livable. I checked to see what I would have to do to get my lumber to code.
> 1 Have it under 19% moisture content (No Problem)
> 2 Have the lumber meet grade standards (No problem I am selling lumber 4 grades above what you buy at the lumber stores.
> 3 Pay a private association $330.00 per month for the right to put an ink stamp on the wood.
> Lumber codes are nothing more than a Mafia rip off that has a powerful Lobby in congress


I have the same problem with my lumber here. They recently made building a house illegal with roughsawn unstamped lumber on the grounds that the insurence industry didn't wanna cover wood that wasn't stamped. I am currently building with my lumber (I quit selling it). A friend asked what Im gonna do for insurence, and I pointed at my sawmill. After my house is finished I will start on my shop, which is basically a back up house w/power tools in it!


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## rambler

dheat said:


> What are the consequences of building without a permit and getting "caught" after construction is completed? Will the local government condemn the building? Make you complete the permitting process and demonstrate you build to code? Fine you? All of the above and then some? Has anyone here, "been there, done that"?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Doug


This looks like a lively thread which I haven't read too much.

'Here' the permit & zoning costs are automatically doubled, and your construction must meet code to a Tee - you will _not_ get any breaks for sure! If you are not in the right zoning, your construction goes bye bye. At your expense.

Someone put in a smallish windmill tower, boy where they in hot water, don't know how it turned out, but a tower over 25 feet tall did not go well with those in charge of the county.

--->Paul


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## michiganfarmer

||Downhome|| said:


> now wouldnt that really be up to or on me ? hey I'm single as long as I issued a disclaimer to sleep over guests, it should really fall to me what goes on here huh? now if I do it for some one else for a fee thats a whole different animal.
> though I will point out I'm no stranger to the trades and one more thing they dont build houses or anything like they use to, even with codes! all codes are is the bare minimum of how chinzy you can go before you endanger someone!


Ignore arabian knight. He is a control nazi. He has no interest in freedom. You will never change his mind


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## arabian knight

Nice name calling there,,,,,, nice way to get this thread deleted,,,, or at the very least Moved~!


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## Navotifarm

Arabian Knight says what he thinks and believes which is generally the antithsis of where I'm coming from but I notice the madder I get, the bigger opportunity I have to see where my buttons are that get pushed, which frequently enlarges my perspective. Anyway, I bet Arabian Knight is a knightess! 
We probably all have images of our co-posters and mine of AR from the first post I read was female. Hey, takes one to know one! (Uh maybe)


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## rambler

Navotifarm, a good presepective to have on internet forums. 

I'm a fairly pleasent & quiet person in person; in typed words, much of my smile & laid-back speach turns into harsh-looking black & white. I keep trying to moderate that some, but it's an always-there deal.

You might want to take a peek at the 'Monsanto gets fined' thread that just appeared here - I kinda cross-linked it's theme you your questions here on zoning. May or may not intreest you to see what appears on that thought.

We humans love to control what others around us do; and hate controls on ourselves. It is the center of the universe thing, and whatever we do is always with good intent so we are good, but others are evil.

Human nature.

It's real hard to live in a world where the neighbors have no restrictions at all. It's called Chaos.

It's real hard to live with restrictions that don't make sense to what one believes. That too is real hard.

The difficult is trying to make those different goals match up and work in a world of people with very different goals & lifestyles.

150 years ago when poeple lived 5-8 people per 160 acres, you could not worry about a septic system.

You could hop on a wagon & horses & roll across the the prairie because no one owned it that you cared about.

Today things are a little more crowded, there are more people on smaller plots, people tend to want some safety in their lives.

It's difficult to balance the safety, freedoms, old laws, and new ideas to make everyone happy, secure, and feel important.

You have a good topic here, it can bring out frustrations from some, very ridgid black & white feelings from others, and so forth.

--->Paul


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## Aintlifegrand

texican said:


> I haven't got a clue. I live in a Free State. Only the slaves we concentrate together for their own safety have codes/permits (some folks call em towns).
> 
> Outside of the confines of towns, you can do as you please... tarpaper shack, teepee, hole in the ground, castle, whatever.
> 
> Building codes specs are the bare minimum for safety... going 'under' the code on walls, floors, and roofs, and you're going to have leaning walls, bouncy floors, and sagging roofs. However, if you can't afford the luxury of 'code', you can do as you please. Free Men sometimes make stupid mistakes, but such is the life of a Free Man. I'd rather make my own mistakes, instead of some safety 'natzi' forcing me to avoid my mistakes... I learn by making mistakes...



Us too... No code here... I am so glad....but FWIW...we built to better than code cause code _was_ just the minimum..and we never do anything just minimum...heck I did better than even the plan... Usually it went like this..code would require 2x6 min...and the plan called for 2x8..But I chose 2x10 ( just in case)..nothing sags...nothing bounces..nothing rotted..no roof leaks..LOL..


----------



## where I want to

This thread does show a good reason for building codes (not say the quality of the government that enforces them,) in that the people who don't want any codes are upset that anyone would interfere with their freedom to do what they want. They only speak of the bad effect on themselves.
In truth building codes more importantly protect the rest of the world from those who only are interested in what they want. The man who dumps his toilet in to the open ditch running the length of the road or allows run off from his barn to flow thought his neighbor's property or takes all the water for his use so that the down stream people have none.
So permits are neccessary when the activity being permitted interferes with other people's freedoms.


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## Jolly

We do have a building code in this parish. It's enforced pretty strictly on homes, but most rural outbuildings are pretty much ignored.

I think that's a good compromise point....


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## just_sawing

When Lowe's Advertises Center cut 2X4s as a premium realize that on my mill I remove the center cut and send it to the pallet mill as junk. With all your Lumber regs you are reduced to using the worse lumber possible and it has gone to the point that to keep it from crumbling down the engineered market has taken over the wood market. 
To the one that talked about particle board, Poplar Lap Siding when normally painted has a easy life of 100 years. It also does not have Arsenic and termites don,t like it.
When you see the footage of a tornado look at how many barns that were build out of green lumber versus your great dried stick building. I volunteer in a disaster relief outfit and I hardly ever see the old structures destroyed. (Yes when a tornado hits head on even the foundation is ripped up, thats not what I am speaking of)


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## dheat

where I want to said:


> This thread does show a good reason for building codes (not say the quality of the government that enforces them,) in that the people who don't want any codes are upset that anyone would interfere with their freedom to do what they want. They only speak of the bad effect on themselves.
> In truth *building codes more importantly protect the rest of the world from those who only are interested in what they want*. The man who dumps his toilet in to the open ditch running the length of the road or allows run off from his barn to flow thought his neighbor's property or takes all the water for his use so that the down stream people have none.
> *So permits are neccessary when the activity being permitted interferes with other people's freedoms.*


 (Emphasis added.)

The issue is private property. I should be able to do whatever I want on my property *as long* as it does not infringe the rights of another person. The courts exist to exact justice when a person's rights are infringed. Insurance exists to cover liability. We can live without all the government intrusion.


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## Win07_351

where I want to said:


> In truth building codes more importantly protect the rest of the world from those who only are interested in what they want.



Would this also include min. sq. footage requirements for new construction too?


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## Riverbow

Hi! I'm new to Homesteading Today and read through this entire thread, thanks to all who asked questions / posted their experiences.

I have the same question as the original poster, but with specific details:

Our county's website states, in bold, that it does not issue building codes or permits. We live outside any city's limits.
We're building a small steward's cabin, off-grid, for the land stewards of a conservation easement protected area. We would hypothetically need permits and inspections for water, electricity, and sewage but since we're not grid-tied in any way we couldn't get these inspected (there is no septic system to inspect).
We chose a composting toilet that meets the Arkansas approved varieties of composting toilet.
We bought our home buliding plans from an architect with engineering degrees, and we plan to build safely according to common sense (nothing experimental about it).
There is a farm house on the property with septic and traditionally built, and my research on building codes leads me to believe that even if codes applied to us, here we can have an out building with an approved type of composting toilet or off-grid features as long as there's a septic system on the property that works, which it does.
We'd like to do everything 100% legal, but it seems like there aren't codes or permits that apply here.

Given all of that, and despite being out of sight from the road, I'm worried that someday someone will insist we violated some code that doesn't actually apply to our area (outside city), specifically for having too small of a cabin or for having sustainable design. I'm worried we'll have to pay fines for breaking laws I can't find out about...am I worrying for nothing? I want to get things permitted if that's the law, but their website specifically says no permits are issued for our area - will they fine us or tear the cabin down anyway? Thanks for any advice.


----------



## Evons hubby

Michael W. Smith said:


> With today's technology of satellites, building a structure without the proper permits leads you to the question of WHEN you will be caught, not IF you are caught!
> 
> I really don't think it's worth it to live your life as you continually wonder "Is this the day I get a vist from the authority?"


Which is why I live where I do, no authorities here to visit me! Ok that's not entirely true, I did have to get my power inspected by the power company before they would turn power on and I did have the septic "inspected" by county health dept guy. He just glanced at everything asked me if the leach lines were level and told me it was all good.


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## highlands

Riverbow said:


> I want to get things permitted if that's the law, but their website specifically says no permits are issued for our area - will they fine us or tear the cabin down anyway? Thanks for any advice.


I'm not sure if I understand. If there is no permitting necessary then you can build what ever you want. That is how it is here. There is no need for a permit for building. We can build however we want for our own private use.

If I want to build a public building then there is a requirement for following some of the codes but you shouldn't hit on that with building your home.

Your insurance company may want you to build to code to protect against chimney fires, electrical fires, etc. But you might not want to bother with insurance.

Your bank may want you to build to code to make sure they can sell the house easily when they foreclose on you. But if you have no bank loan then that may not be an issue for you.

I would highly recommend reading the national electrical code, national plumbing code, national mechanical code, etc. They're fascinating treaties. There is a reason behind every line of text in those books. You can get them online. Well worth a winter's read.

My method is I built small things and then progressively larger things and I built to code. I even invited the inspector's out to look over what I had done. They loved it. But as they pointed out, I didn't have to do that. They enjoyed seeing someone take the time to do things right and worked with me answering my questions along the way. Simply talking with them taught me new things. I have now fixed up and built several houses and our on-farm butcher shop which we just finished and had our final physical plant inspection. That is to be USDA/State inspected. While it's not a public building and thus not required to be built to code I did build it all to code and beyond. The heads of inspection told me they wished everyone did such a good job. It's fun feedback to get and it did not stifle my creativity in the slightest to do things right. If anything, it was stimulating.

ON THE OTHER HAND, if you build in a hostile town who does have building permit requirements and you do not get the necessary permits then YES they CAN make you tear it down. I saw that happen with a very fancy house that someone built far south of us. Quite the saga in the newspaper as they fought it in court and lost and then the house got torn down. The message there is know your local laws, regulations and zoning and most of all, don't buy or build in hostile towns.

-Walter


----------



## NEfarmgirl

We ran into problems when we bought the property we live on. Hubby asked the assessor if we needed a permit to do work and add things to our property. He was told no because we were in the country. About a year later they sent a letter and demanded to know what work had been done because we did not get a permit. When they showed up on the property I told them we did not have a permit because we were told we didn't need one and hubby spoke to someone at the assessor's office about it before anything was done. I did end up having to tell them what work we did do inside the house because they had pictures of a dumpster being on the property by the house with building materials in it. They then said that we were ok, and did not need the permit, but needed to report any changes with the buildings on the property. Another two years go by and they show up again; this time 2 of them. One was measuring the deck on the house and they other was writing things down. When I confronted them they said we added the deck and didn't report it. I explained the deck was built by the previous owners it was documented in the inspection report before we bought the place and there were pictures of it on the county website dated from before us purchasing the property. They claimed it was not on file and we built it. Again, they said we did not need a permit, but needed to report it. It depends on the area, and when we lived in town we always got permits; in the country we haven't gotten them and had no issues except having to report changes to the county assessor. I don't even know what we are supposed to really have permits or what they want, but we have not been fined or had to tear anything down. I know in town they are fined and liens can be placed on the property if the fines and back taxes on the adjusted valuation are not paid.


----------



## Bellyman

Walter, thank you for your post!

Reading through some of the previous (and quite old) posts, there have been some that suggested that if a person doesn't get permitted and inspected, they'll build poorly and end up with an unsafe structure. Not necessarily, and I think your post illustrates that some of us really do care about the quality of our work whether there are permits and/or inspection or not.

I'm like you, I want to do it right, not just to pass an inspection but because I really do want something built well. To some extent, at least for me, it's a matter of pride. 

(It's a bit like when I was in school. There were some that were there with the intention of getting a good grade. I never really cared a whole lot about the grade but I wanted to LEARN. The grade pretty much took care of itself.)

While there are probably a lot of "pencil pusher" type inspectors out there, I would bet that there are some really good ones that a person could learn a lot from. And learning new things is something that can keep things interesting for me.


----------



## highlands

Do get things in writing and keep records.

-Walter


----------



## AmericanStand

highlands said:


> I would highly recommend reading the national electrical code, national plumbing code, national mechanical code, etc. They're fascinating treaties. There is a reason behind every line of text in those books. You can get them online. Well worth a winter's read.
> -Walter



Great wisdom 
The blood of many victims wrote the code. 
I wish each line had a footnote to explain why it's there. 
Lots of times your. "Great Idea" has been tried and eventually found wanting in some totally unexpected way. 

But for the New OP. 
Sometimes one department of a county will say nope no codes while another says the opposite. 
And there is the state. 
And here there are things like water districts , drainage districts ,fire districts etc.


----------



## where I want to

Two tales of unpermitted building-
1) guy buys unbuildable land due to unable to get a passing perk test and land bordering on stream. He puts a tool shed up, next year adds light to shed. Then drills well. Then moves old house to property to store it. Then attaches everything and start living there during 'summer.' Actually his summer lasts twelve months a year. For decades- finally gets it permitted.

2) guy down the road builds arena addition to his horse boarding facility illegally by saying it was a hay storage barn. His neighbors complain, county tells him to take it down and he's in court until he is bankrupt and loses property.

The difference? The first guy is a lawyer. And the second is not. And the neighbor who complained about the second guy? He's a lawyer too.


----------



## rambler

highlands said:


> I'm not sure if I understand. If there is no permitting necessary then you can build what ever you want. That is how it is here. There is no need for a permit for building. We can build however we want for our own private use.
> 
> If I want to build a public building then there is a requirement for following some of the codes but you shouldn't hit on that with building your home.
> 
> Your insurance company may want you to build to code to protect against chimney fires, electrical fires, etc. But you might not want to bother with insurance.
> 
> Your bank may want you to build to code to make sure they can sell the house easily when they foreclose on you. But if you have no bank loan then that may not be an issue for you.
> 
> I would highly recommend reading the national electrical code, national plumbing code, national mechanical code, etc. They're fascinating treaties. There is a reason behind every line of text in those books. You can get them online. Well worth a winter's read.
> 
> My method is I built small things and then progressively larger things and I built to code. I even invited the inspector's out to look over what I had done. They loved it. But as they pointed out, I didn't have to do that. They enjoyed seeing someone take the time to do things right and worked with me answering my questions along the way. Simply talking with them taught me new things. I have now fixed up and built several houses and our on-farm butcher shop which we just finished and had our final physical plant inspection. That is to be USDA/State inspected. While it's not a public building and thus not required to be built to code I did build it all to code and beyond. The heads of inspection told me they wished everyone did such a good job. It's fun feedback to get and it did not stifle my creativity in the slightest to do things right. If anything, it was stimulating.
> 
> ON THE OTHER HAND, if you build in a hostile town who does have building permit requirements and you do not get the necessary permits then YES they CAN make you tear it down. I saw that happen with a very fancy house that someone built far south of us. Quite the saga in the newspaper as they fought it in court and lost and then the house got torn down. The message there is know your local laws, regulations and zoning and most of all, don't buy or build in hostile towns.
> 
> -Walter


Here is the problem.

There are federal rules and codes that you -need- to follow.

There likely are state rules and codes that you -need- to follow.

Septic.

Wetlands development.

Electrical wiring.

Wells.

Livestock buildings and yards.

Heating units and chimneys and ventilation.

There really isn't anyplace in the USA that isn't affected on these specific issues.


However.......

If your county does not enforce these things, then there is no one to do the inspections, or give you a piece of paper saying you are ok. Because enforcement of these codes and issues is commonly left up the local county to do.

This means you are stuck in never - never land. You -do- have codes you need to follow, but there is no one to work out the paperwork and show you what to follow!

Now, in 10, or 20, or whatever years, someday your county will change, and will start enforcing codes.

And -then- you have problems. Because you probably get grandfathered in, but if you sell to your kids or strangers or whatever, then all these codes will hit at once, and everything needs to get inspected and brought up to the codes that are out there.

And it is a mess.

And, today, if your county does not have any inspections or so forth, thrn you really can't do much to prepare for that.

So you are just stuck.

I would try real hard to check out state and national codes and try my best to follow them.

In general, code on keeping septic and wells away from each other, and livestock away from wells, and using safe wiring code is really just good common sense isn't it, so one should want to follow those? Once in a while the paperwork gets mind numbing and the current 'green' approach to force is to use poor products to replace what actually worked isn't so great, but anyhow a lot of these codes from the 1980s and 1990s were actually pretty smart, good ideas to follow?


Now, another problem is taxes. The tax branch of your county will want to know what you are building and improving so they can collect the appropriate 'in their view' taxes.

A lot of,permits are just there so,they can keep tabs of how much you spend so they know how much they can tax. This might be a separate division of your county govt, and you might run a fouls of only asking the planning/ zoning vs the assessor's branches of your county. Best to check with both.....


Paul


----------



## Riverbow

Thank you everyone who is sharing their expertise and stories, it helps a lot to see the different circumstances and wisdom here on the forums.

We aren't trying to build anything experimental and we're not using our "great ideas" but rather the plans from an architect with engineering degrees. True the house is environmentally-friendly but that doesn't mean the model won't work since it's worked before and been heavily tested, in our case, by people who know more than we do. Yes we'll be following electrical and plumbing codes, but of course without the electrical grid and without septic (using an Arkansas-approved composting toilet and solar panels).

Many of you are hitting the nail on the head - there are no permits or codes issued here, but that doesn't make me feel too confident that somebody won't come asking for them someday. I'm hopeful about it since we have the community / city's support, are working with respected non-profits and aren't building in a wetland or doing anything with livestock or structures that would harm neighbors. 

We will need to report it to the assessor somehow I think, either through the owner of the land or ourselves or both, and pay taxes. I just hope that goes well and doesn't end up with demolition of the cabin in our "code-free" county. I hope everyone's building and homesteading projects went well, too!


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## CountyChick

I've lived in a number of different towns and cities, and it appears to me that there is no consistency from one jurisdiction to another regarding how this kind of thing is handled.

I know of one situation in a nearby state in which a party that had refused to abide by local ordinances was forced to tear out some construction and rebuild it in an approved manner. And, at the opposite end of the spectrum, I know of a family here in my town that built a camp two years ago without drilling a well and without installing any kind of graywater system or septic system, and as far as I know the family spends substantial time there and is not getting any heat from local officials. And I've seen many in-between situations.

Another situation arose in our town several years ago when two families built large "hoop houses" without permits. Our town has assesed thousands of dollars in fines and taxes, and for awhile there was talk of lawsuits, but as far as I know neither family has paid the fines or the taxes assessed on the hoop houses. Every year the families' names and relevant dollar amounts appear in our town's annual report (a printed book containing information about the town's finances - copies of the book are available to all households in the town).

So even within the same town there isn't always consistency regarding such things. This has a lot to do with who is in office at the time an infraction comes to light.

I've observed that lots of people are resistant to getting permits for any and all structures or improvements on their land. These folks feel they should be able to do whatever they want on their own land.

Personally, I make it a point to obey the rules and regs. For one thing, I think they serve an important purpose, in most situations. The other thing is that I would not want to endure the humiliation and embarrassment that would come with having my name published as part of a list of delinquent taxpayers or whatever.


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## NEfarmgirl

The work we have done was we did what we could and we hired electricians, plumbers, and HVAC people to take care of the rest. There is still possibilities of things happening when the work is done to code. Our electrical was done to code and we could have lost our house to a fire. One of the outlets shorted out and started burning, but thankfully it did not get very far. We had two seperate electricians come and look at it and the wiring was done correctly, it was a faulty outlet that was installed. We wanted quality work to be done that would last. While we were in town, we needed an inspector to look everything over to sign off the work for the state, while a few miles down the road in the country no one cares except the tax collector. The previous owners crawled up the power pole and tapped into the power line that runs down from the main wire to the meter. They spliced it and used electrical tape to hold it together. I was shocked that nothing was said about that during the inspection before we bought the property and more surprised that the power company didn't do anything when they came out to check the meter box and lock it after the property was sold.


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## highlands

rambler said:


> There are federal rules and codes that you -need- to follow.


No. The federal rules are not required everywhere. They are not actually federal rules but rather a "national" and "international" code but they have to be implemented at the state level to have standing. Not all states require them.

If you are building a public building then states tend to have higher requirements than if it is a private building.

If it is contractor built and sold then the states tend to have higher requirements than if it is a privately built, especially if home owner built.

This is exactly how it should be. Less government intrusion as things get more private.

In any case, read the code and understand it so that when you innovate you innovate with understanding.

-Walter


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## Kraut76

Here in southern california it does not pay to build without permits. The county(San Diego) is more laid back about it, but you risk catching one of there pencil pushers on a bad day and you get to tear it down, pay fines and have nothing but misery with any future permit application, cause they have your name


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## highlands

Don't live in places like that. Check out the rules before buying land. That is what I did most carefully. Paid off. I have a fool of a brother that instead tried to change the rules to suit himself and fought the law for years. Waste of time and effort when he could have just picked a different town without zoning.


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## Bellyman

highlands said:


> Don't live in places like that. Check out the rules before buying land. That is what I did most carefully. Paid off. I have a fool of a brother that instead tried to change the rules to suit himself and fought the law for years. Waste of time and effort when he could have just picked a different town without zoning.


Definitely! A person can learn a whole lot about a place just by spending some time, looking around and talking to people before making an offer on a single piece of property. 

A friend of mine is a big proponent of the idea of renting in an area for at least a year before buying, even if you have the money. When you live somewhere, you find out stuff, you learn what the local economy is like, what the local culture is like, what the local climate is like, what the local politics is like, and hopefully, you'll get a pretty good feel for what you can and can't do. You may decide that it's a perfect area for you. Or, you may find out that you can't get out of there fast enough.


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## lmrose

Where I live building permits are required for any building over 215 sq. ft. Build without a permit and you will be made to tear the structure down or it will be done for you and you will be sent a bill. The buildings have to be built to code. 215 sq ft and under you only need a development permit and codes do not apply. Houses and cottages are under the same strict building code. Camps under 215sq ft are not and the difference is a camp cannot have inside walls or insulation or running water or wiring so I was told by the building inspector. Nor can they be occupied year around. A camp is seasonal . I don't think codes should apply to certain country properties. But rich folks move to the country and pay high taxes for their fancy homes and the poor person trying to get by has no where to go.


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## lmrose

highlands said:


> Don't live in places like that. Check out the rules before buying land. That is what I did most carefully. Paid off. I have a fool of a brother that instead tried to change the rules to suit himself and fought the law for years. Waste of time and effort when he could have just picked a different town without zoning.


Wish we had places here without zonong! We are regulated to death! Have to go way up to Newfoundland to the out posts to find no property taxes or zoning!


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## AmericanStand

Looking through this old thread I am amazed at how draconian some places are


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## colourfastt

What this thread has missed is the conveyance of these "unpermitted" properties. Say 20-30 years down the road when you die, and the estate needs to sell the property. With no permits pulled and no inspections done, the property will not sell (unless the permitting fees and fines are paid and everything is brought up to CURRENT code). So, I hope there is money set aside for the executor to have the home demolished.


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## Wolf mom

colourfastt said:


> What this thread has missed is the conveyance of these "unpermitted" properties. Say 20-30 years down the road when you die, and the estate needs to sell the property. With no permits pulled and no inspections done, the property will not sell (unless the permitting fees and fines are paid and everything is brought up to CURRENT code). So, I hope there is money set aside for the executor to have the home demolished.


Not necessarily so...It depends upon the area, the financing (if any) and the buyer....


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## Evons hubby

colourfastt said:


> What this thread has missed is the conveyance of these "unpermitted" properties. Say 20-30 years down the road when you die, and the estate needs to sell the property. With no permits pulled and no inspections done, the property will not sell (unless the permitting fees and fines are paid and everything is brought up to CURRENT code). So, I hope there is money set aside for the executor to have the home demolished.


This is simply wrong. I've bought and sold numerous properties here in Kentucky that have not had building permits when built. I currently own six rental homes none of which went through such nonsense. I also represented numerous families that sold their homes when I was an active real estate agent. Buyers simply buy them like they do anywhere. They look the property over, decide whether or not they want it and either buy it or not.


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## Wolf mom

Yup - I should have elaborated in my post to what Yvonne's hubby said. There are also protections the buyer and seller can put in a contract like "buyer accepts property "as is".....".

How do you think people buy 100+ year old homes? They sure aren't built to today's UBC.


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## Evons hubby

colourfastt said:


> What this thread has missed is the conveyance of these "unpermitted" properties. Say 20-30 years down the road when you die, and the estate needs to sell the property. With no permits pulled and no inspections done, the property will not sell (unless the permitting fees and fines are paid and everything is brought up to CURRENT code). So, I hope there is money set aside for the executor to have the home demolished.


Pray tell, where would I look to find the codes on building our log home?


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## muleskinner2

Around here it's don't ask don't tell. And never, never, never let them on your property for an inspection. I realize that this would not work in other places. But I don't live in other places, so I don't care.


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## Danaus29

colourfastt said:


> What this thread has missed is the conveyance of these "unpermitted" properties. Say 20-30 years down the road when you die, and the estate needs to sell the property. With no permits pulled and no inspections done, the property will not sell (unless the permitting fees and fines are paid and everything is brought up to CURRENT code). So, I hope there is money set aside for the executor to have the home demolished.


Depends on the location. I don't think any building permits were pulled to build the house we live in. No septic permit or well permit either. Most of the houses in this area were built without building permits being pulled. All there is here is the lender's requirement that the building pass a pre-loan inspection and insurance inspection if you choose to purchase insurance.


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## oldtruckbbq

Sorry if I step on toes, but what amazes me is people buying property without checking into codes, permits, inspections, zoning, deed restrictions and the like. I inquired on all those things before we purchased our property. Prior to the developer having it surveyed and building roads it was 500 acres of raw woods with a few old logging roads and a couple ATV trails through it.

- Contacted the county to see what permits, codes, inspections were needed 
- Verified with the county that the plat for the area was accepted and the roads were going to come under county maintenance
- Verified with the Post Office that they would be providing mail delivery to the area
- Checked with the state to see what requirements there were for septic
- Contacted the water district regarding getting a meter installed
- Contacted the electrical co-op about requirements to get electricity ran
- Contacted the county highway department to see what I needed to do to install a drive.

Once I had that info I was prepared to sign the dotted line on the property. IMHO, if you want to build whatever you want without permits and inspections, find an area where that is possible. Don't buy property in an area with a lot of regulation, then expect to do whatever you want. That gets you a lot of unwanted attention, and you are NOT going to win because the powers that be cannot afford to let you win.


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## Danaus29

When purchasing raw land, knowing the building permit process is essential. When you buy an existing home permits are not so much of an issue unless you plan on building another house or an outbuilding. If it will be a few years before you build it won't matter a whole bunch because they can always change the codes (and usually do) before you get around to it.


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## Evons hubby

Danaus29 said:


> When purchasing raw land, knowing the building permit process is essential. When you buy an existing home permits are not so much of an issue unless you plan on building another house or an outbuilding. If it will be a few years before you build it won't matter a whole bunch because they can always change the codes (and usually do) before you get around to it.


That's one of the reasons I bought my homestead in Kentucky. Many counties here with very few codes or restrictions. Freedom has always been a "thing" for me. If I pay money for something I want to own it. If I own it I should be able to build anything I want to on it.


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## Michael W. Smith

I can see the reason for codes and permits - mainly for safety - make sure it's built correctly and safely.

However, on the other hand, the permits let the taxing authorities know exactly what you did, and will adjust your property tax bill for the "improvement" - guaranteeing them higher revenue. 

It's a horrible cycle.


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## fireweed farm

I bought a property where the cabin was built without permits in an area you need permits. I confirmed with the regional office that they weren’t going to come out and fine me or tear it down. They called this one an ‘old timer’ which they let slide. I then had it looked at to ensure it was structurally safe. I was able to haggle the price down due to the fact it is not to code. Saved 100k  

Currently I’m building a detached suite with no permits. But I’m doing everything to the local building code and taking photos as I go. As far as I’m concerned the building code is there for good reason, it protects the owner from shoddy workmanship and it protects the future buyer from a can of worms. The whole freedom thing stops when you sell, then it’s buyer beware- and lowers the sales value. If insulated insufficiency/improperly you’re going to be paying hundreds to thousands a year on additional heating bills.


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## 1948CaseVAI

Where I am you would have to open the walls and floors to get the plumbing and electrical inspected at least. Hopefully the framing could be inspected at that time but if ot you may have top open up more for that. Then there would be fines and, if it is your home, you would have to live elsewhere until you pass final inspection because it would be illegal to live there without an occupancy permit, and there are further fines and/or jail for violating that.


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## fireweed farm

1948CaseVAI said:


> Where I am you would have to open the walls and floors to get the plumbing and electrical inspected at least. Hopefully the framing could be inspected at that time but if ot you may have top open up more for that. Then there would be fines and, if it is your home, you would have to live elsewhere until you pass final inspection because it would be illegal to live there without an occupancy permit, and there are further fines and/or jail for violating that.


Here in 'socialist communist unfree Canada', in an area with a strict building code, enforcement of illegally built structures to this day, are to prove to the building department that you have disconnected the appliances from power source AND fines if after a certain amount of time they remain inhabited.
You can as you mentioned open up the walls to prove structurally/electrical/plumbing etc is to code- and they go down to looking for stamps on the wood. Or, wait a few years and plug the appliances back in.


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## Alice In TX/MO

After purchasing two owner built homes in Oregon County, Missouri, where there were no permits required at the time of construction, I can attest that subsequent owners are buying a pig in a poke. For you Northeners, that means you don’t know WHAT you are getting. 

Electrical and plumbing are the two obvious areas of concern, but foundations and drainage are close behind. 

I also bought a homeowner built home in Texas which was literally built by two drunk Czech brothers using 100% recycled EVERYTHING. The wall joists were not set at any standard width. 14” up to 36”. 

The exterior walls were old barn wood with asphalt roll roofing printed with brick faces for siding. I can’t say here what that is called colloquially. 

My remodeling and rent house creation life is a delightful adventure.


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## Lisa in WA

Our county in Idaho had no building permits and no inspectors. The only thing needed was a building location permit and septic permit. It’s still like that. It was great for us as far as building and not having to deal with red tape but DH is an engineer so everything was built to code.
Our rentals were in that county but in a town with a building inspector.


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## fireweed farm

Lisa in WA said:


> Our county in Idaho had no building permits and no inspectors. The only thing needed was a building location permit and septic permit. It’s still like that. It was great for us as far as building and not having to deal with red tape but DH is an engineer so everything was built to code.
> Our rentals were in that county but in a town with a building inspector.


In your county in Idaho with no permit needed, was there any agency where you'd need to run house plans by someone?
I'm thinking for safety- around here bedroom windows need to be a certain size to permit escape in a fire (I think called egress??), handrails where more than 3 steps, etc. Common sense safety stuff- or is it just a free for all?
I wouldn't want to be a firefighter running in to a burning home with no escapes....
Also if I were an insurance agent I wouldn't want to insure a house where nobody looked at the wiring.


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## Lisa in WA

fireweed farm said:


> In your county in Idaho with no permit needed, was there any agency where you'd need to run house plans by someone?
> I'm thinking for safety- around here bedroom windows need to be a certain size to permit escape in a fire (I think called egress??), handrails where more than 3 steps, etc. Common sense safety stuff- or is it just a free for all?
> I wouldn't want to be a firefighter running in to a burning home with no escapes....
> Also if I were an insurance agent I wouldn't want to insure a house where nobody looked at the wiring.


nope.
It’s still like that now.


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## fireweed farm

Lisa in WA said:


> nope.
> It’s still like that now.


Wow, yikes. Where I live roofs are engineered for heavy snow load which is kind of important.
When you buy a house there do you just hire an inspector to have a look?


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## Lisa in WA

fireweed farm said:


> Wow, yikes. Where I live roofs are engineered for heavy snow load which is kind of important.
> When you buy a house there do you just hire an inspector to have a look?


oh, we definitely do here too. We built our own place and DH engineered the roof for a far heavier load than we’d ever get. People do hire inspectors but if I were buying a house there Od here a structural engineer. Which we’ve done before anyway.


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## Hooligans

I am building on Alaskan GU-1 (general use) land with no restrictions, permits, etc. It is in a borough (county) and we do pay property tax and get regularly checked up on by an assessor. But that's it. Off-grid, outhouse, whatever... There isn't even a permit available to buy. It's not easy, but it's freedom.


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## wkndwrnch

I built a deck locally here is SW Ohio.Followed the rules,it was expensive.Homeowner paid the local township $65 for their permit.I asked about inspections,they said"no inspections,we will drive by the house this year".In addition there is the county permits,they were based on the value of the total project.The homeowner paid $105 for that permit.The county inspectors were great to work with,gained some knowledge,through their advice.They could see my job site was clean,post holes were proper depth,correct fasteners were used,that deck will be an asset to the house for many years.Building codes have changed since I have been doing remodeling,and material fasteners have improved,in this case,although expensive everything worked out well. I still do not understand the local township need to collect taxes,the county was easy to work with,because I followed their rules,and the home owner paid.


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## lmrose

I can see the value of building codes and inspections if you are building a conventual modern house. Modern houses here are not built like houses of a hundred or more years ago with real wood. Modern houses are built with different materials ;not wood and have wiring, regular plumbing etc. . Because of the nature of them they are expensive to maintain. However I don't think building a cabin or cottage with no power should require following a building code for electricity and air exchanger etc. Here if you want to build a cabin or cottage it must be wired etc. Even if you never hook up to the grid. The reasoning is you might sell the property and the buyer might want electric. 

I was told houses and cottages, cabins need to meet all the of the code. But camps do not need too. They said a camp is a building used for camping. The outside and inside walls are the same with no insulation. A camp does not have wiring or indoor plumbing. A camp is seasonal and can't be lived in all year around. A structure under 215 sq. ft only needs a development permit and not a building permit. In other words a camp is a tent but with solid walls and roof. So ours is a camp with very solid walls and roof.


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## oldtruckbbq

We don't have to deal with permits, inspections, or codes. However, everything is being done to meet or exceed codes. If you meet or exceed codes then you have more reliable electrical and plumbing. I've even downloaded the ADA codes so we are building ADA compliant since we are both over 60. I don't have to do it, but if I do then not only will I be safer but it makes the place more marketable when it gets passed on at the end of our lives. The nice thing is, I am doing it because I choose to, not because I have to, and I don't have to pay a bunch of money for permits and inspections.

Tax assessors have interesting ways of knowing if you have added anything they need to tax. I called the company that our county uses for 911 addressing to get our street address. She was able to see that over the last year we finished the drive and started construction. She was even able to tell me the foundation size from the aerial view. When I said "let me guess, the county uses this not just for 911 addressing but also for the tax assessor", she told me that they indeed use it for tax assessment purposes. Guess its easier when you know where to go instead of driving around everywhere looking for things that they can tax.


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## Alaska

Not into playing government games and avoid them whenever possible. Have been living off the grid most of my adult life. Homesteaded in Alaska back in 1981. When I inquired with the state and borough about septic system laws they asked who was doing it ? Ah me myself and I. Well who is going to dig , they just did not understand that I was going to dig that whiole with a shovel. Ran into some of the same attitude here in rural Texas when we moved here in 2008. So I downloaded all the state regs only this time I bought me a backhoe. Good soil out of the city limits and large enough chunk of property. Its not rocket science. Hooked up to the grid last summer to avoid purchasing that next battery bank in the near future.


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