# Deja vu, fsu.........



## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

Let the excuses commence:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nca...with-punching-woman/ar-AAcP1vn?ocid=ansspap11



> Florida State running back Dalvin Cook has been charged with misdemeanor battery after allegedly *punching a 21-year-old woman in the face*





> Cook is 5-feet-11-inches tall and 200 pounds.
> 
> Geohegan is 5-feet-4-inches tall and weighs 140 pounds, according to a police report.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

Why doesn't the woman down the street who gets hit get put in the main stream news?


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

Why doesn't the woman who is emotionally and mentally tortured, who has no bruises and bloody nose to prove the abuse occured, get a full page spread?


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Bearfootfarm said:


> Let the excuses commence:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nca...with-punching-woman/ar-AAcP1vn?ocid=ansspap11



Obviously, it's the woman's fault. She must have been dressed trashy, led him on or changed her mind and upset him.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

I have no excuse for this slimeball.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

The President of FSU has told the Football coach, Jimbo Fisher and the Atheletic Director to immediately start classes for athletes teaching them the consequences of such actions along with the States Atty coming to conduct classes as well. We will see how much good this does when the Tallahassee PD did not even arrest this creep to begin with. This happened before the QB hit the girl in the bar.


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## Laura Zone 5 (Jan 13, 2010)

She 'kneeded' him, making physical contact first.
She would go to jail also.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

If you have to be taught in College what I learned in Kindergarden you're a lost cause.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

gapeach said:


> The President of FSU has told the Football coach, Jimbo Fisher and the Atheletic Director to immediately start classes for athletes teaching them the consequences of such actions along with the States Atty coming to conduct classes as well. We will see how much good this does when the Tallahassee PD did not even arrest this creep to begin with. This happened before the QB hit the girl in the bar.


Yes I noticed that too. I guess the hierarchy of abuse is qbs first then running backs then all other positions next. It's sad it has come down to this when we all should be held under the same standards in the first place. 

But equality is only something others profess and preach but not practice.


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## poppy (Feb 21, 2008)

How did this happen? A group of guys who think they are entitled to do whatever they want because they are college athletes, a girl, and all of them coming out of a bar at the 2AM closing. 1. She should have had more sense than to be there at that hour. 2. The athletes should have had more sense than to be there at that hour also. 3. At 2AM there's a high probability they were all under the influence and he likely had his beer goggles on. 4. It could just as easily been a fight with another guy because they happen all the time under these conditions.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

poppy said:


> How did this happen? A group of guys who think they are entitled to do whatever they want because they are college athletes, a girl, and all of them coming out of a bar at the 2AM closing. 1. She should have had more sense than to be there at that hour. 2. The athletes should have had more sense than to be there at that hour also. 3. At 2AM there's a high probability they were all under the influence and he likely had his beer goggles on. 4. It could just as easily been a fight with another guy because they happen all the time under these conditions.


Since the young man in question is only 19 years of age and couldn't possibly have consumed any alcohol legally I'm not sure beer goggles could be used as an excuse for his bad behavior.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

mmoetc said:


> Since the young man in question is only 19 years of age and couldn't possibly have consumed any alcohol legally I'm not sure beer goggles could be used as an excuse for his bad behavior.


Dalvin Cook was born in 1994,mmoetc. I beleve he is 21 now. He has been at FSU a couple of yrs as running back.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

Dalvin Cook was born August 1, 1995 (age 19 years) per Google.

Even if he was born in 1994 at the time of the incident he was 20 and unable to legally drink.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

gapeach said:


> Dalvin Cook was born in 1994,mmoetc. I beleve he is 21 now. He has been at FSU a couple of yrs as running back.


The story linked to lists his age as 19. If that information is incorrect I apologize for repeating it.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

gapeach said:


> Dalvin Cook was born in 1994,mmoetc. I beleve he is 21 now. He has been at FSU a couple of yrs as running back.


That would excuse everything, then. No respectable young lady would ever &#322;eave a bar at closing time expecting to go home alone. She must have been asking for this young man to come to the defense of his friend who got a little too close to her and to have wanted him to continue this defense as his friends tried to restrain him. I'll bet her skirt was short, too.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mmoetc said:


> That would excuse everything, then. No respectable young lady would ever &#322;eave a bar at closing time expecting to go home alone. She must have been asking for this young man to come to the defense of his friend who got a little too close to her and to have wanted him to continue this defense as his friends tried to restrain him. I'll bet her skirt was short, too.


Of course, he's a college football player! Everyone knows they are gods! She should have wanted to go home and have sex with _all_ them!


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

mmoetc said:


> That would excuse everything, then. No respectable young lady would ever &#322;eave a bar at closing time expecting to go home alone. She must have been asking for this young man to come to the defense of his friend who got a little too close to her and to have wanted him to continue this defense as his friends tried to restrain him. I'll bet her skirt was short, too.



What are you trying to say, mmoetc? You need to read the articles from ESPN about what happened. I would be the last person to criticize the girls. There were actually 2 girls together and when the girl was being circled by the athletes, her friend ran to the car and called 911. The girl had already told the guys that she had a bf and was not interested in them. At that time she was just standing outside waiting for her friend to come out and join her to go to the car.

Sites showing Dalvin Cook being born in 1996, have been changed to 1995 and 1994 in the last four days. Cached versions show that sites that take NCAA football very seriously changed his DOB FOUR DAYS AGO.

I don't know why some people want to start an argument about every little thing. For petesake!!!!


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## where I want to (Oct 28, 2008)

I read this morning that, unlike the earlier case where video is available, in this case there is not and the football player denies anything took place at all.
although it doesn't seem likely, there is nothing that can be used to pass judgement at this point.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

All of the incident happened outside the bar, not inside.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

poppy said:


> How did this happen? A group of guys who think they are entitled to do whatever they want because they are college athletes, a girl, and all of them coming out of a bar at the 2AM closing. 1. She should have had more sense than to be there at that hour. 2. The athletes should have had more sense than to be there at that hour also. 3. At 2AM there's a high probability they were all under the influence and he likely had his beer goggles on. 4. It could just as easily been a fight with another guy because they happen all the time under these conditions.





gapeach said:


> What are you trying to say, mmoetc. You need to read the articles from ESPN about what happened. I would be the last person to criticize the girls. There were actually 2 girls together and when the girl was being circled by the athletes, her friend ran to the car and called 911. The girl had already told the guys that she had a bf and was not interested in them. At that time she was just standing outside waiting for her friend to come out and join her to go to the car.
> 
> Sites showing Dalvin Cook being born in 1996, have been changed to 1995 and 1994 in the last four days. Cached versions show that sites that take NCAA football very seriously changed his DOB FOUR DAYS AGO.
> 
> I don't know why some people want to start an argument about every little thing. For petesake!!!!


Maybe I read the article that said his age was 19. Maybe I read the account that said he was reaching past his friends who tried to restrain him so he could continue to hit the woman. Maybe I read the post you liked which seemed to excuse his behavior because "beer goggles" were involved. Maybe that same post you liked said she should have had more sense than to exit a bar at closing time putting the fault on her for being there rather than on the boors who accosted, then beat her. 

I said exactly what I meant to say. I'll make it clearer. Being drunk and stupid doesn't excuse beating a woman. Walking out of a bar at closing time shouldn't make a woman a target. No means no. It doesn't mean if you push up closer she might say yes. It doesn't mean if she pushes your friend away you get to come to the defense of his bruised ego and beat her. 

Why do so many who stand up for personal responsibilty want to give so many a pass?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Here's the story currently up on ESPN. http://espn.go.com/college-football...-florida-state-seminoles-faces-battery-charge

It references his age at 19, saying he graduated HS in 2013 which would be consistent with that age.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

mmoetc said:


> Maybe I read the article that said his age was 19. Maybe I read the account that said he was reaching past his friends who tried to restrain him so he could continue to hit the woman. Maybe I read the post you liked which seemed to excuse his behavior because "beer goggles" were involved. Maybe that same post you liked said she should have had more sense than to exit a bar at closing time putting the fault on her for being there rather than on the boors who accosted, then beat her.
> 
> I said exactly what I meant to say. I'll make it clearer. Being drunk and stupid doesn't excuse beating a woman. Walking out of a bar at closing time shouldn't make a woman a target. No means no. It doesn't mean if you push up closer she might say yes. It doesn't mean if she pushes your friend away you get to come to the defense of his bruised ego and beat her.
> 
> Why do so many who stand up for personal responsibilty want to give so many a pass?


x100. Many _still_ won't get it tho.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

JJ Grandits said:


> I have no excuse for this slimeball.





JJ Grandits said:


> If you have to be taught in College what I learned in Kindergarden you're a lost cause.


_Maybe_, you missed where ga peach "liked" these two posts as well, and unless the post is one sentence or you edit it yourself, the "liked" part may not be what you edited it to mean.
IOW, I agreed with those posts you referred to as well, because those guys shouldn't have been out drinking and should have known trouble was inevitable.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> _Maybe_, you missed where ga peach "liked" these two posts as well, and unless the post is one sentence or you edit it yourself, the "liked" part may not be what you edited it to mean.
> IOW, I agreed with those posts as well, because those guys shouldn't have been out drinking and should have known trouble was inevitable.


Nope, I noticed them. But since she liked the post blaming the woman for being there and seeming to excuse the beating as drunk boys will be drunk boys I surmised she might have had a more recent change of heart. Maybe she should have been more clear in what she was saying with her likes.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

> Why do so many who stand up for personal responsibilty want to give so many a pass?


And just who is the "so many"?

Is my computer not working? Have I missed the avalanche of supporting posts?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Jolly said:


> And just who is the "so many"?
> 
> Is my computer not working? Have I missed the avalanche of supporting posts?


Sometimes my statements are broader than one thread.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Sometimes my likes are broader than just one statement in a post. I understood what Poppy was saying that it could just as easily been a guy that the football player punched. 

Dalvin Cook's older brother tried to step in and control the situation. Maybe his brother's birthdate got mixed with his during the aftermath. He is a sophomore at FSU.
http://www.tallahassee.com/story/sp...b-dalvin-cook-investigation-battery/29971363/
I don't think any man should ever hit a woman and especially an athlete who has strength training every day. I resented the short skirt comment and insinuation that I was condoning it. I don't expect or want any apology.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> Nope, I noticed them. But since she liked the post blaming the woman for being there and seeming to excuse the beating as drunk boys will be drunk boys I surmised she might have had a more recent change of heart. Maybe she should have been more clear in what she was saying with her likes.



I see.
When I read this post below, I didn't get the same meaning that you did. I don't see where it places *blame* on the girl, just a comment on her decision to be there at that time and place.
I've been the victim of crimes and tragic incidents where my bad judgement played a part in the outcome, but in no way means I was "to blame" for what happened. It was just one part of the story.
The rest of the post clearly indicates that.



poppy said:


> How did this happen? A group of guys who think they are entitled to do whatever they want because they are college athletes, a girl, and all of them coming out of a bar at the 2AM closing. *1. She should have had more sense than to be there at that hour. * 2. The athletes should have had more sense than to be there at that hour also. 3. At 2AM there's a high probability they were all under the influence and he likely had his beer goggles on. 4. It could just as easily been a fight with another guy because they happen all the time under these conditions.




If I had no discernment at all, I might interpret this comment of yours as an excuse instead of interpreting it as sarcasm.





mmoetc said:


> That would excuse everything, then. No respectable young lady would ever &#322;eave a bar at closing time expecting to go home alone. She must have been asking for this young man to come to the defense of his friend who got a little too close to her and to have wanted him to continue this defense as his friends tried to restrain him. I'll bet her skirt was short, too.



You didn't really mean that it was her fault, did you?
Or maybe you did, and had a change of heart later?
:umno:

I can figure it out for myself, no need to be tedious and ask you to explain every detail of what you meant, and make wrong assumptions in the process.


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

My Mama always said, nothing good happens after midnight.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> sometimes my statements are broader than one thread.


*focus*


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I've had 3 college students of my own and I understand that the band doesn't usually start playing til 10 o'clock in some bars. That was always the excuse that I got for them going out so late. I had 2 sons and a daughter. In a college town, that is the popular thing to do. My daughter had a curfew of 1am as long as she lived at home and that was until she was married at 23. Her bf, then fiancee was allowed to stay for awhile after they got home. 
One of my sons lived on a college campus in another state but he never liked going to bars. The other one went to college in town and he was not much of a bar goer either. My daughter and SIL loved the bands and dancing.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> I see.
> When I read this post below, I didn't get the same meaning that you did. I don't see where it places *blame* on the girl, just a comment on her decision to be there at that time and place.
> I've been the victim of crimes and tragic incidents where my bad judgement played a part in the outcome, but in no way means I was "to blame" for what happened. It was just one part of the story.
> The rest of the post clearly indicates that.
> ...



You highlighted the part that places blame squarely on her. She should have had more sense than to be there, right? How that statement does anything except blame her for making the poor decision to try to walk out of a bar at closing time doesn't seem ambiguous to me. To list it 1st as the cause of this incident makes it even less ambiguous to me. If she'd just have had the good sense to stay home like a good little girl no one would have been tempted to beat her.

The rest of the post uses "beer goggles" and boys will boys and they might have fought other boys as excuses and red herrings. No where was it suggested in that post that they should be responsible for putting on those goggles and accosting and punching a young woman.


Make whatever assumptions you wish about my words. You wouldn't be the first here to do so. If I think those assumptions are wrong I'll tell you, myself.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

JJ Grandits said:


> My Mama always said, nothing good happens after midnight.


You're Mama was wrong.


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## painterswife (Jun 7, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> You're Mama was wrong.


I agree. Lots of really good things happen after midnight. The problem is these days I need to take a nap if I want to be up then.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> You're Mama was wrong.


After 34 years in a hospital, I can say mama was right.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

gapeach said:


> Sometimes my likes are broader than just one statement in a post. I understood what Poppy was saying that it could just as easily been a guy that the football player punched.
> 
> Dalvin Cook's older brother tried to step in and control the situation. Maybe his brother's birthdate got mixed with his during the aftermath. He is a sophomore at FSU.
> http://www.tallahassee.com/story/sp...b-dalvin-cook-investigation-battery/29971363/
> I don't think any man should ever hit a woman and especially an athlete who has strength training every day. I resented the short skirt comment and insinuation that I was condoning it. I don't expect or want any apology.


And if it was a guy( and what circumstances would have brought that about? A rebuff by the guy to his gay friends advances) why would that excuse the behavior? He was 19,had alledgedly been drinking, and punched someone repeatedly who wasn't fighting back, even while his friends tried to restrain him. Any attempt to justify or displace the blame onto the victim is simply, IMHO, wrong.

Now about his age. I was told in no uncertain terms I was wrong. I offered to apologize if my sources were proven wrong. That's taking responsibilty for one's statements.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Jolly said:


> After 34 years in a hospital, I can say mama was right.


You only saw the bad things. The good things never got there, unless they were really good.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

mmoetc said:


> You highlighted the part that places blame squarely on her. She should have had more sense than to be there, right? How that statement does anything except blame her for making the poor decision to try to walk out of a bar at closing time doesn't seem ambiguous to me. To list it 1st as the cause of this incident makes it even less ambiguous to me. If she'd just have had the good sense to stay home like a good little girl no one would have been tempted to beat her.
> 
> The rest of the post uses "beer goggles" and boys will boys and they might have fought other boys as excuses and red herrings. No where was it suggested in that post that they should be responsible for putting on those goggles and accosting and punching a young woman.
> 
> ...


Not so. Another part of his post that you must have missed is that the football players should not have been out so late either. But you took the defensive and assumed it was all about her to blame in his eyes. 

But anyway, a woman had been assaulted and you want to fill a page up with semantics. What about her justice?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

mmoetc said:


> And if it was a guy( and what circumstances would have brought that about? A rebuff by the guy to his gay friends advances) why would that excuse the behavior? He was 19,had alledgedly been drinking, and punched someone repeatedly who wasn't fighting back, even while his friends tried to restrain him. Any attempt to justify or displace the blame onto the victim is simply, IMHO, wrong.
> 
> Now about his age. I was told in no uncertain terms I was wrong. I offered to apologize if my sources were proven wrong. That's taking responsibilty for one's statements.


No, this is what Poppy said: _ It could just as easily been a fight with another guy because they happen all the time under these conditions.
*
He meant being intoxicated and yes, fights do happen between 2 guys all the time in and outside bars.*

_
_mmoetc, is it ok with you if we have a truce? We have disagreed before but never really anything serious. About his age, I read yesterday somewhere that he was born in 1994 and that the sites about his birthdate had been altered. I believed it because he gained over 1000 yds of offense last yr playing for Fl State. I cannot find it in my history because I read so many places, sports boards included. The victim is prosecuting and I hope this guy at least gets kicked off the team for good and I really hope that he gets punished for hitting her. No, you were not wrong about age.

 _


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

mreynolds said:


> Not so. Another part of his post that you must have missed is that the football players should not have been out so late either. But you took the defensive and assumed it was all about her to blame in his eyes.
> 
> But anyway, a woman had been assaulted and you want to fill a page up with semantics. What about her justice?


So- they shouldn't have been out blames them, but she should have had more sense doesn't blame her? That post, to me, seemed all about excusing the boy's behavior from her seeming lack of sense, to beer goggles( which if taken literally further demean her. After all, would she have been attractive enough to bother with if the boys hadn't been wearing goggles) to the assertion that boys will be boys and fight. The first cause listed was her lack of sense. The first blame was layed on her.

If you're truly interested in justice than no, even subtle, blaming of the victim should be tolerated. Place the blame soley where it belongs. On the young man throwing punches at a woman. Telling someone you don't wish to have sex with them shouldn't lead to a beat down. I don't care where you are or what the clock says.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

poppy said:


> How did this happen? A group of guys who think they are entitled to do whatever they want because they are college athletes, a girl, and all of them coming out of a bar at the 2AM closing. 1. She should have had more sense than to be there at that hour. 2. The athletes should have had more sense than to be there at that hour also. 3. At 2AM there's a high probability they were all under the influence and he likely had his beer goggles on. 4. It could just as easily been a fight with another guy because they happen all the time under these conditions.





mmoetc said:


> You highlighted the part that places blame squarely on her. She should have had more sense than to be there, right? How that statement does anything except blame her for making the poor decision to try to walk out of a bar at closing time doesn't seem ambiguous to me. To list it 1st as the cause of this incident makes it even less ambiguous to me. If she'd just have had the good sense to stay home like a good little girl no one would have been tempted to beat her.
> 
> The rest of the post uses "beer goggles" and boys will boys and they might have fought other boys as excuses and red herrings. No where was it suggested in that post that they should be responsible for putting on those goggles and accosting and punching a young woman.
> 
> ...




One of the first things I was taught working in bars, hanging out shooting pool in bars and dating a few bartenders along the way is, never try to reason with a drunk.

I say this for TWO reasons.
1) To cite many years of experience observing what happens in these situations and how they are perceived.
2) To attempt to reason with you, because I assume you are sober.

That said, I HAVE found sometimes unreasonableness occurs in sober people as well.

Yes, I bolded one part as an acknowledgement of what you read and perceived as blaming the victim.
I'll now bold the other parts.....


*How did this happen? A group of guys who think they are entitled to do whatever they want because they are college athletes, a girl, and all of them coming out of a bar at the 2AM closing.*

This is the one of the main reasons this occurred. It starts in high school with star athletes. There are 4 boys on trial for rape right now in my town and it is a story repeated too often.
It took weeks just to get them charged and an outcry from the public. Still there were some that tried to defend them or minimize their acts.
That's unacceptable and I interpret the post the same way.




* 2. The athletes should have had more sense than to be there at that hour also. *

If one were to see that as total "blame" then you should at least acknowledge this part the same way, no?

But this isn't really the *reason* it happened, just a piece of the puzzle.
It *is* a fact that if they were home in bed or at least home, none of them could have possibly been involved, right?
My wife and I often comment how we're glad we don't live in the large city south of us. Almost every weekend there's a shooting at some bar or club.
The funny thing is, it doesn't happen at noon, or 6pm or 9pm.......it's usually right about 3 am.
Coincidence?
Not for a reasonable person.





*3. At 2AM there's a high probability they were all under the influence and he likely had his beer goggles on. *

This one apparently is being taken as an excuse, rather than a simple statement of fact.
When people get drunk, they get stupid. 
That's the reason why you don't try to reason with a drunk, they have lost all their common sense, if they ever had it, lol.
It's not an excuse or the main reason for placing blame, just another piece of the puzzle.




*4. It could just as easily been a fight with another guy because they happen all the time under these conditions.*

This one, curiously, was misinterpreted as making a parallel to having a pass made by a gay man, and then fighting about it.:umno:

I doubt that's what the poster meant, but I knew exactly what he meant.
The guys are drunk and rowdy at closing time and if they're not "hitting" on women (non violent, slang for trying to pick them up) they are hitting on each other. (violent, fighting - not gay)
This is the normal routine at bars at closing time.:buds:
On this point, anecdotal, non-statistical data is all i'll provide because I've BTDT.:buds:



The post in totality, puts the "blame" squarely on the guy who assaulted her, and explains why he's to be viewed as someone who needs to learn the consequences of his actions and NOT to be excused for it.



And for that reason, I would interpret *your* post the same way......




mmoetc said:


> I said exactly what I meant to say. I'll make it clearer. Being drunk and stupid doesn't excuse beating a woman. Walking out of a bar at closing time shouldn't make a woman a target. No means no. It doesn't mean if you push up closer she might say yes. It doesn't mean if she pushes your friend away you get to come to the defense of his bruised ego and beat her.
> 
> Why do so many who stand up for personal responsibilty want to give so many a pass?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

gapeach said:


> No, this is what Poppy said: _ It could just as easily been a fight with another guy because they happen all the time under these conditions.
> *
> He meant being intoxicated and yes, fights do happen between 2 guys all the time in and outside bars.*
> 
> ...


I read what he said and what does it matter? Just because it happens we should somehow excuse it? It didn't happen between two drunk guys. It was one guy punching a woman. All else is smoke, mirrors and excuses for unacceptable behavior.

I'll agree to your truce. In the last couple of weeks here I've been accused of telling lies and saying things I didn't. It's not the first time here and likely won't be the last. My skin is thick enough to take it. Thanks for being the first, in a while, to admit a mistake. If my comments seemed a bit personal I apologize. I'll blame it on this summer cold I'm fight through.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

mmoetc said:


> I read what he said and what does it matter? Just because it happens we should somehow excuse it? It didn't happen between two drunk guys. It was one guy punching a woman. All else is smoke, mirrors and excuses for unacceptable behavior.
> 
> I'll agree to your truce. In the last couple of weeks here I've been accused of telling lies and saying things I didn't. It's not the first time here and likely won't be the last. My skin is thick enough to take it. Thanks for being the first, in a while, to admit a mistake. If my comments seemed a bit personal I apologize. I'll blame it on this summer cold I'm fight through.


It matters because what he is saying that at 2am outside a bar is not a good place to be whether you are male or female. 

Anyway, no apologies needed. I hope you feel better. :kissy:


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

mmoetc said:


> So- they shouldn't have been out blames them, but she should have had more sense doesn't blame her? That post, to me, seemed all about excusing the boy's behavior from her seeming lack of sense, to beer goggles( which if taken literally further demean her. After all, would she have been attractive enough to bother with if the boys hadn't been wearing goggles) to the assertion that boys will be boys and fight. The first cause listed was her lack of sense. The first blame was layed on her.
> 
> If you're truly interested in justice than no, even subtle, blaming of the victim should be tolerated. Place the blame soley where it belongs. On the young man throwing punches at a woman. Telling someone you don't wish to have sex with them shouldn't lead to a beat down. I don't care where you are or what the clock says.


Yes, but cant you see that the "beer goggles" in question is on the player too. That's the way I took it anyway. They chose to get drunk. Its on them. Maybe I am wearing goggles and don't know it but that's what I saw.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I think a lot of the girl involved because the Tallahassee PD were going nowhere with this until she went to the States Attorney. He found her very credible and the case is going forth after 2, almost 3 wks.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

It's funny how people with different experiences can completely misunderstand each other.

When we are commenting on the bar scene, what we're saying is, "Boy, if you can't handle your liquor and being around women, you'd better stay home until you learn to be responsible."

That's not an excuse, far from it.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> It's funny how people with different experiences can completely misunderstand each other.
> 
> When we are commenting on the bar scene, what we're saying is, "Boy, if you can't handle your liquor and being around women, you'd better stay home until you learn to be responsible."
> 
> That's not an excuse, far from it.


The first cash money I ever made came from selling creepy crawly bugs in ice cubes at my father's bar so the patrons could play jokes on each other. I've spent many hours behind the stick and ran one of the roughest bars in the county when I was 23. I know drunks and drunken behavior quite well. My nose bends a little left because of one of them. 

The facts of this case seem mighty simple. A young man repeatedly punched a young woman with no seeming provocation. Any other talk of time, place or circumstance is irrelevant. It's not acceptable at 2am outside a bar or 2pm outside a church. I'll interpret anything that even hints otherwise as making excuses.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> The first cash money I ever made came from selling creepy crawly bugs in ice cubes at my father's bar so the patrons could play jokes on each other. I've spent many hours behind the stick and ran one of the roughest bars in the county when I was 23. I know drunks and drunken behavior quite well. My nose bends a little left because of one of them.
> 
> The facts of this case seem mighty simple. A young man repeatedly punched a young woman with no seeming provocation. Any other talk of time, place or circumstance is irrelevant. It's not acceptable at 2am outside a bar or 2pm outside a church. *I'll interpret anything that even hints otherwise as making excuses.*


I see.
Even when it's been explained in detail that it *wasn't* hinting at that?




I'll defer to my previous statement then and leave it at that..............


One of the first things I was taught working in bars, hanging out shooting pool in bars and dating a few bartenders along the way is, never try to reason with a drunk.

I say this for TWO reasons.
1) To cite many years of experience observing what happens in these situations and how they are perceived.
2) To attempt to reason with you, because I assume you are sober.

That said, I HAVE found sometimes unreasonableness occurs in sober people as well.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> It's funny how people with different experiences can completely misunderstand each other.
> 
> When we are commenting on the bar scene, what we're saying is, "Boy, if you can't handle your liquor and being around women, you'd better stay home until you learn to be responsible."
> 
> That's not an excuse, far from it.


Yes, but now the coach has to teach them I guess. Classes now for learning how to act? It never amazes me the things I see today. People get drunk differently. I've known people that get drunk and want to fight. *Every time*. They just don't drink anymore. Its that simple. Not the good guys and girls anyway. The rest can cry all they want and it wont help them. They will get what's coming to them. 

I hope.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> I see.
> I'll defer to my previous statement then and leave it at that.
> 
> 
> ...


It's a valid sentiment but I don't know what it has to do with this case. It's hard to think about reasoning with someone while they're punching you. Or maybe she should have had more sense than to be there in the first place.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

Relevance?
It certainly wasn't meant towards the incident at the bar, it was meant towards the discussion on this thread.
I'll separate it from the rest and put it in bold print.

*That said, I HAVE found sometimes unreasonableness occurs in sober people as well.*


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> Relevance?
> It certainly wasn't meant towards the incident at the bar, it was meant towards the discussion on this thread.
> I'll separate it from the rest and put it in bold print.
> 
> *That said, I HAVE found sometimes unreasonableness occurs in sober people as well.*


If unreasonableness means disagreeing with others "interpretations" I'll plead guilty as charged.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

A couple or 3 things: Florida State has a new President and he says he is going to have zero tolerance toward what has happened in the last 2 incidents.

It is up to the coaches to let recruits know that this will not be tolerated and for the Athletic Director to back those rules up.
plus the police are going to have to arrest the football players when they commit battery and assault.


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

farmrbrown said:


> Relevance?
> It certainly wasn't meant towards the incident at the bar, it was meant towards the discussion on this thread.
> I'll separate it from the rest and put it in bold print.
> 
> *That said, I HAVE found sometimes unreasonableness occurs in sober people as well.*


_Oh, I get it now_. your saying that you agreed with Mmoetc in that the guy didn't have to be drunk to hit that girl. He may have been but not necessarily. 

So why is he disagreeing with you while you agree with him? 

Must have my goggles on again. That cant be right. :facepalm:


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## mreynolds (Jan 1, 2015)

gapeach said:


> A couple or 3 things: Florida State has a new President and he says he is going to have zero tolerance toward what has happened in the last 2 incidents.
> 
> It is up to the coaches to let recruits know that this will not be tolerated and for the Athletic Director to back those rules up.
> plus the police are going to have to arrest the football players when they commit battery and assault.


Like twice.

But what took 'em so long.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mreynolds said:


> _Oh, I get it now_. your saying that you agreed with Mmoetc in that the guy didn't have to be drunk to hit that girl. He may have been but not necessarily.
> 
> So why is he disagreeing with you while you agree with him?
> 
> Must have my goggles on again. That cant be right. :facepalm:


More or less.
Some people are unreasonable when drunk, others are that way stone cold sober.
Either way, once that is determined, reasoning with them is fruitless.
Pointing out that no one was making excuses and in agreement on blame, proved useless.



I'll use myself as an example.
I don't go out on New Year's Eve, we referred to it as Amateur Hour.
Now if a drunk plows into me that night and hurts me, I would in no way ever blame myself, it was clearly his fault not mine.
But the fact that I base my decision on what I know and common sense doesn't in anyway detract from where the blame lies, it's just a piece of information I use in my own reasoning.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Some people just feel that they are entitled because of the way that they have been spoiled by so much attention and cannot stand to be told no, athletes especially.

Remember what FL State let Jameis Winston get by with last year. Now all the athletes probably think they can do it too.

Fl State is not the only place, it goes on allover because they don't want to lose players.


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## Jolly (Jan 8, 2004)

gapeach said:


> A couple or 3 things: Florida State has a new President and he says he is going to have zero tolerance toward what has happened in the last 2 incidents.
> 
> It is up to the coaches to let recruits know that this will not be tolerated and for the Athletic Director to back those rules up.
> plus the police are going to have to arrest the football players when they commit battery and assault.


True enough, but reality is that if the FSU program is a 7 win/season program, the president of the university will be looking for a new job pretty quickly. Along with the coach.

The problem is that in order to win, you have to recruit the very best athletes. It seems as if (in football, anyway) it is becoming increasingly harder to get top-flite, 4-star recruits that are also 4-star people.

A coach often finds himself between the devil and the deep blue sea...


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## JJ Grandits (Nov 10, 2002)

mmoetc said:


> You're Mama was wrong.


Really?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> More or less.
> Some people are unreasonable when drunk, others are that way stone cold sober.
> Either way, once that is determined, reasoning with them is fruitless.
> Pointing out that no one was making excuses and in agreement on blame, proved useless.
> ...


Saying you don't blame yourself for being in the wrong place at the wrong time is different from someone else saying you should have had more sense than to be there. One is analyzing your own actions the other portions at least some of the blame on you. That is how I interpreted the post in question. Nothing you've said has convinced me otherwise. 

Even though we may both agree that the young man is to blame I'll cut him no slack for his age, athletic ability, sense of entitlement, drinking habits or anything else. Especially not because the young woman in question somehow should have had more sense than to cross his path. Being beaten for no other reason than saying no should never have to be a part of a woman's decision to go out in public.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

JJ Grandits said:


> Really?


I'm sure she's a fine woman and a great mother. But no one's always right.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> Saying you don't blame yourself for being in the wrong place at the wrong time is different from someone else saying you should have had more sense than to be there. One is analyzing your own actions the other portions at least some of the blame on you. That is how I interpreted the post in question. Nothing you've said has convinced me otherwise.
> 
> Even though we may both agree that the young man is to blame I'll cut him no slack for his age, athletic ability, sense of entitlement, drinking habits or anything else. Especially not because the young woman in question somehow should have had more sense than to cross his path. Being beaten for no other reason than saying no should never have to be a part of a woman's decision to go out in public.


Ok, I'll say it for you.
"I've got more sense than to out after midnight on New Year's Eve. I stay home so the drunks don't kill me."

See? That wasn't so bad.
I know it's the drunk's fault for breaking the law and being stupid, but I've got the sense to see it coming and stay outta the way.

That in no way shifts the blame, it shows that I know how to avoid trouble.
Sometimes trouble IS unavoidable, that may be the case here, but as many have said, ALL the facts aren't available to us, are they?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> Ok, I'll say it for you.
> "I've got more sense than to out after midnight on New Year's Eve. I stay home so the drunks don't kill me."
> 
> See? That wasn't so bad.
> ...


But why should a Tuesday night in June worry anyone. Do women get beaten regularly on this night? Is it a particularly dangerous night? Did this woman have the experience of seeing many other women beaten for saying no a closing time? So why should she have had more sense? In my many years in and around bars and drunks I've seen many fights for many, and some for no discernible, reasons. This is a new one for me and not one I would have counseled my daughter against. Watch out for the friend of the guy you turned down. What fact are you waiting on? One that excuses the beating?


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> What fact are you waiting on? One that excuses the beating?


No.
There isn't one available on this earth.
But nice try, though.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> No.
> There isn't one available on this earth.
> But nice try, though.


Well, what fact that hasn't been brought forth are you waiting for and why? You seem to, as have I , decided that the young man was in the wrong. Will more facts change that? Will they strengthen it? Are you hoping something weakens it. What are you hoping more facts prove? What was the point of stating the obvious, that we don't know all the facts?


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I think using good judgement is part of it too, just sayin'. 

Physically, a young intoxicated girl is not as strong as a 200 lb football player and she is in no shape to defend herself.

He is a a jerk and a thug and I am on her side.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> Well, what fact that hasn't been brought forth are you waiting for and why? You seem to, as have I , decided that the young man was in the wrong. Will more facts change that? Will they strengthen it? Are you hoping something weakens it. What are you hoping more facts prove? What was the point of stating the obvious, that we don't know all the facts?




I don't know, but for some reason that seems to set you off. I was made aware on another thread the importance of waiting on all the facts to come out and I happen to agree with that, no matter how obvious an incident may seem at first.
It isn't meant to be accusatory, speaking for myself, nor is it an indication that I "hope" something comes out to weaken the case.

It's likely that if anything more comes out, it will strengthen the girl's case and speaking from experience, she needs all the evidence that can be had, because the shroud of protection on these athletes is pretty strong.

I referred to a local case here of high school football players, one was a star QB or RB IIRC.......and his dad is a cop.:hrm:
They remained uncharged for months, go figure.

I may get slammed for speculation in answering your question, but that's no biggie for me.

This is #2 at FSU in the last month, are there more? It's at least worth a look, due to the culture of protection I mentioned. Good Lord, look what we found out at Penn State. That whole mess was pitiful.

Was there contact or conversation in the bar prior to this? Did she already rebuff him in there? (Good for her)
Or did she tell him, "Sure, wait for me outside, I'm going home with you."
Not so good for her, but still it doesn't excuse his violence.

Does he have a prior history of this? Has he gotten away with it before?
What about his friends with him that tried to pull him away? Shouldn't they be at least acknowledged as doing the right thing? Are they being pressured in any way about their testimony?
All the above can help prevent further acts like this so other girls aren't treated this way.

You are right, not much further will likely change the outcome of this case, but who's to say what impact it might have in the future?


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> But why should a Tuesday night in June worry anyone. Do women get beaten regularly on this night? Is it a particularly dangerous night? Did this woman have the experience of seeing many other women beaten for saying no a closing time? So why should she have had more sense? In my many years in and around bars and drunks I've seen many fights for many, and some for no discernible, reasons. This is a new one for me and not one I would have counseled my daughter against. Watch out for the friend of the guy you turned down. What fact are you waiting on? One that excuses the beating?


I notice you chose not to address this question. Why should the young lady have had enough good sense not to go out with a friend on a random night in June?


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## rambler (Jan 20, 2004)

mmoetc said:


> I notice you chose not to address this question. Why should the young lady have had enough good sense not to go out with a friend on a random night in June?


From what little I read about this, and 'know', it appears the fella is all in the wrong.

Aside from this case, in general, beating up a gal after leaving a bar is wrong. Period.

Those are kind of givens?

In a separate thought, it seems good judgement to take care of oneself and ones possessions, to keep oneself safe?

We should not have to lock up our cars as people shouldn't steal? And yet, many communities make it illegal to leave your keys in your car as it attracts bad people...... It is wrong to be an attractive nuisance like having a pool without a fence, or an open house, and so on....

We shouldn't have to lock our houses. We shouldn't have neighborhoods that are unsafe to be in after dark.

Many, many things should or shouldn't be.

But, they are?

Guys and gals need to be safe, take care of themselves.

In a crosswalk across the street, pedestrians have the right of way. You should be able to walk across the street without looking for traffic.

Is that wise, or the best way to go? When a 3000# vehicle hits a 200# person, is it worth being right? Or should have ya kinda thought things over and acted a little smarter on your own?

Whether the guy was right or wrong is one issue.

Whether the gal was acting in her best interests is a separate issue. She did not in any way 'deserve' anything. But it is possible she could be responsible in some ways for what happened as well.

This does not excuse the fella.

There are two sides, and some days both sides are wrong?

I think 2 different issues are being discussed here?

Paul


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

The perp, FSU running back Dalvin Cook, is also an animal abuser.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf...haining-three-puppies-together-032456889.html 

3 offenses plus a juvenile record for several offenses that are sealed.


Gun Violence

Domestic Abuse

Animal Cruelty


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

It appears I owe everyone an apology. I've apparently been defending the wrong party in this incident. The girl obviously had no blame. It was the bar's fault.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/article...su-players-from-bars-amid-arrests-controversy


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> It appears I owe everyone an apology. I've apparently been defending the wrong party in this incident. The girl obviously had no blame. It was the bar's fault.
> 
> http://m.bleacherreport.com/article...su-players-from-bars-amid-arrests-controversy


Naw, It was Bushes fault. 

I am 6' 4", weigh in at just under 260lbs.... there are a good many places I know better than to be at closing time. Of course I am also 64 years old and have had time to pick up a few things while this poor lass is very young and obviously has some of lifes lessons yet to learn.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

This thread is interesting to me because it somewhat relates to the rather lengthy thread on unwanted sexual advances and a woman's right to say no. 

It is my understanding that this woman did what women have been told to do, she was at the club with at least one friend and left with that friend. She declined a guy's offer and someone felt intimidation was the best approach, yet it's easy to fall back on the idea that it's her fault. 

Suggesting should stay away from bars so they'll be safer is just as silly as saying women shouldn't jog because they may be attacked or they shouldn't work out at a gym lest they be attacked in an empty change room or that women who study late on campus should expect what they get if they're assaulted walking to their car.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

In a perfect world any woman should feel safe just going about her own business..... In that same perfect world no one would get hurt in auto accidents either. In the world I am accustomed to,it's best to avoid dangerous situations. People do get hurt, sometimes killed in automobiles, and young ladies sometimes are accosted hanging out in bars at two in the morning.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> In a perfect world any woman should feel safe just going about her own business..... In that same perfect world no one would get hurt in auto accidents either. In the world I am accustomed to,it's best to avoid dangerous situations. People do get hurt, sometimes killed in automobiles, and young ladies sometimes are accosted hanging out in bars at two in the morning.



It certainly does happen but ideally, were told to wear seat belts and stay with friends when going out socializing. It seems the woman mentioned did that and some still feel she's at fault. 

I'd be thinking somebody should teach young men that not all women want to go home with them and if would be less complicated if they find one a bit more willing.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I do not see where anybody has put the blame on the girl. Sure, she should have known better than to be intoxicated at 2am outside a bar where guys had gathered. That is just plain common sense. Last year a girl was raped there in Tallahassee by a FSU football player.
We don't know what condition her friend was in but she did go to a car and call 911. 
I really don't see anything that has been said wrong here in all of the posts. Nobody has said that she caused the situation but could have been more careful. It is a cruel world. Some times puppies and young girls are innocent victims of very bad people who would do harm to them. Young girls have to be very careful and carry mace or a cellphone with them at all times.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> I do not see where anybody has put the blame on the girl. *Sure, she should have known better than to be intoxicated at 2am outside a bar where guys had gathered.* That is just plain common sense. Last year a girl was raped there in Tallahassee by a FSU football player.
> We don't know what condition her friend was in but she did go to a car and call 911.
> I really don't see anything that has been said wrong here in all of the posts.


You are blaming her with that statement.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

She did not use good judgement but he is still to blame for being a woman abuser and a thug. She was in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person hitting her and there is no excuse for his attack on her. 
I don't think a misdemeanor is enough for him but that is the charge.
There is really nothing else for me to say on the subject.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

Irish Pixie said:


> You are blaming her with that statement.


I spent the latter part of the day working alone with two new hires and it made me think about the direction of some of the comments on this and another thread. 

The one was a fair bit younger than me and he seemed to have no problem with the idea that a woman could work beside him and handle fairly physical labor and he simply assumed I knew my job and he was fairly comfortable with me as a trainer. 

The second was about my age, if not a bit older and the whole thing just about drove him crazy. Logically, he could understand that there was some slim chance that the VP of a trucking company could be female but he was close to driving himself and I crazy over the idea that he kept thinking he needed to do his job and mine. 

Essentially, there still seems to be a generation that wants to protect women and I think the comments that we think are laying blame or focusing on what the woman should have done differently are actually focused on ways they believe will keep women safe from harm.


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## Bearfootfarm (Jul 13, 2006)

> he was close to driving himself and I crazy over the idea that he kept thinking he needed to do his job and mine.


I wonder if maybe he was just trying to show the "new boss" what a hard worker he was, and would have possibly done the same for a male?


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

wr said:


> I spent the latter part of the day working alone with two new hires and it made me think about the direction of some of the comments on this and another thread.
> 
> The one was a fair bit younger than me and he seemed to have no problem with the idea that a woman could work beside him and handle fairly physical labor and he simply assumed I knew my job and he was fairly comfortable with me as a trainer.
> 
> ...


I know the type, and believe for some it's more they feel a woman can't properly do something that has been traditionally _their_ job than anything else. Women should be "safely" at home by 10 pm preferably fixing their man a sammich and looking totally hot while doing it. Even if he's out having fun. 

Some men put up a front of being modern and enlightened but if you scratch the surface they don't feel women are equal to them in any way. I'd say half of men over 55-60 are like this to varying degrees.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Feminism is really completely off topic. There is a huge difference in strength of a 200 male football player and a girl.

Feminists would argue til the cows come home but just plain good judgement and common sense will prevail that females have to be careful what they do and where they go and the kinds of potentially dangerous situations that they may get into if they are not.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> Feminism is really completely off topic. There is a huge difference in strength of a 200 male football player and a girl.
> 
> Feminists would argue til the cows come home but just plain good judgement and common sense will prevail that females have to be careful what they do and where they go and the kinds of potentially dangerous situations that they may get into if they are not.


You're blaming the woman again.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

How so?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Bearfootfarm said:


> I wonder if maybe he was just trying to show the "new boss" what a hard worker he was, and would have possibly done the same for a male?


You bring up an interesting point... What if this been a 21 yo man who was "beaten" after shoving another guy in a parking lot? Where would all the outrage go then? As I understand it the girl was punched once in the jaw, which lacks a good deal of being a beating in my neck of the woods.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> You bring up an interesting point... What if this been a 21 yo man who was "beaten" after shoving another guy in a parking lot? Where would all the outrage go then? As I understand it the girl was punched once in the jaw, which lacks a good deal of being a beating in my neck of the woods.


But she didn't shove this guy. She pushed away his friend when he got a little too close for her comfort. She was apparently struck more than once, even bring struck as his friends tried to restrain him. 

Had it been a 21 year old man subjected to an unprovoked attack my feelings wouldn't be different. The young player in question is totally responsible for his actions and deserves punishment.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

gapeach said:


> Feminism is really completely off topic. There is a huge difference in strength of a 200 male football player and a girl.
> 
> Feminists would argue til the cows come home but just plain good judgement and common sense will prevail that females have to be careful what they do and where they go and the kinds of potentially dangerous situations that they may get into if they are not.


How did the woman know she was going to encounter several powerful 200 lb males that were going to want her to come home with them? Does the team own the club and is there some reason that football players can't control their sexual urges or understand no? If that's the case, maybe those boys should stay at home until they learn these things, before one of them ends up in jail.

I'm not sure how this is an issue of feminism, I kinda thought it was more a criminal law matter. To the best of my understanding bars have allowed women for the last 35+ years.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

wr, I was answering "how so" to the comment of "You're blaming the woman again".

Never have I blamed the woman. I only said that young girls have to be careful, be aware of getting intoxicated and it is after the fact, but a good idea to take some protection such as mace. My daughter and her fiance used have it with them when they used to go to bars downtown and have to walk several blocks to their car.

The ban on FSU football players will probabably help for now but that ban will be lifted eventually. Players are not going to want to go to a school where they have a ban on bars or curfews either and FSU wants to win ballgames. I highly doubt that this running back will be expelled because he gained over 1000 yards last year. He is a creep, an animal abuser and a woman abuser. A high priced lawyer from Miami has been hired for him and he is already talking about getting him off.

Feminism is thinking that women can do anything a man can do but that is not always the case. Most women found out pretty quickly that they could not pass the rigid physical tests that it takes to be a State Patrol officer. Women cannot pull 200lb+ people from cars that have wrecked. That is just one example.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

Jolly said:


> And just who is the "so many"?
> 
> Is my computer not working? Have I missed the avalanche of supporting posts?


There was a pile of supporters for the quarterback and we actually have video of him punching the girl. Not a stretch to assume this guy will get support too.


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## wr (Aug 10, 2003)

gapeach said:


> Feminism is thinking that women can do anything a man can do but that is not always the case. Most women found out pretty quickly that they could not pass the rigid physical tests that it takes to be a State Patrol officer. Women cannot pull 200lb+ people from cars that have wrecked. That is just one example.


I'm going to respectfully disagree with your comment because my daughter has passed the physical testing for both police and fire exams and a friend of hers passed the physical to secure a policing job. In the case of both women, they trained hard and exceeded expectations and the testing process was not adjusted for gender. 

It can be done and I have to say I've seen more than a couple male officers that obviously stopped training as soon as they were hired.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Patchouli said:


> There was a pile of supporters for the quarterback and we actually have video of him punching the girl. Not a stretch to assume this guy will get support too.



Patchouli, this is a different incident. There is no video as far as anyone knows. None has surfaced.

This guy is a running back for FSU, not the QB.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

wr said:


> I'm going to respectfully disagree with your comment because my daughter has passed the physical testing for both police and fire exams and a friend of hers passed the physical to secure a policing job. In the case of both women, they trained hard and exceeded expectations and the testing process was not adjusted for gender.
> 
> It can be done and I have to say I've seen more than a couple male officers that obviously stopped training as soon as they were hired.


I was working for the SC police academy when females were first hired for trooper jobs. Those tried their best but they had pass the same tests as males and they could not do the strength parts. 

I know there are plenty of Fire and Police female officers. 
I was working for the SC Criminal Justice in 1977 when they first hired 7 women. They sure tried hard but just could not make it. I don't know how many women troopers are there today. I know that there are some but cannot find any statistics.

Good for your daughter!


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> wr, I was answering "how so" to the comment of "You're blaming the woman again".
> 
> Never have I blamed the woman. I only said that young girls have to be careful, be aware of getting intoxicated and it is after the fact, but a good idea to take some protection such as mace. My daughter and her fiance used have it with them when they used to go to bars downtown and have to walk several blocks to their car.
> 
> ...


I think the problem comes when you say the young woman should be careful when she obviously was. She went with a friend on a night there should not have been any problems. If women have to leave bars early then it's a problem. What would you have said if this happened at midnight? If the person punched was a young man? 

This could have happened to anyone and short of no one ever going to a bar ever again it is not preventable. Some people are going to be stupid when they get drunk. Some people will be stupid period. You take reasonable precautions and you go enjoy yourself. Sometimes bad stuff just happens.


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## Patchouli (Aug 3, 2011)

gapeach said:


> Patchouli, this is a different incident. There is no video as far as anyone knows. None has surfaced.
> 
> This guy is a running back for FSU, not the QB.


I know.  I was just referring to the fact the other guy got support even with people being able to see it happen. I haven't seen those people in this thread so far.


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

mmoetc said:


> But she didn't shove this guy. She pushed away his friend when he got a little too close for her comfort. She was apparently struck more than once, even bring struck as his friends tried to restrain him.
> 
> Had it been a 21 year old man subjected to an unprovoked attack my feelings wouldn't be different. The young player in question is totally responsible for his actions and deserves punishment.


Interesting, I will have to remember this if someone shoves you around, I will not come to your defense. As I read the article she was struck only once, it happened as his buds were attempting to hold him back. My point was had it been a man, it would never have made the news.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

From what I have read today there is more evidence finding going on and the public really has no idea what really happened.
Affidavits have been taken for other people who were present.
It sounds like all of them may have been intoxicated.

This is the lawyer's story,
Patel said witnesses in the case were intoxicated. He said investigators were presented three versions of what occurred and that his research indicates one alleged witness was actually not present.
"We are not interested in a plea," Patel said. "It's just not right here. It must be dropped or he must be found not guilty. If necessary, we will file civil charges after these false allegations."
Patel said it has been made clear to him that "there has been so much turmoil at FSU and there is a huge cloud, so [FSU] wants to make sure 100 percent that Dalvin has not done anything inappropriate."
Patel said he believes recent domestic-violence cases against women involving dismissed FSU quarterback De'Andre Johnson and even former Baltimore Ravens running back Ray Rice are playing a role in charges being filed in this case.
"This is not clean," Patel said. "There are conflicting statements. The woman and her dad -- who was not there -- identified Dalvin after being shown social-media pictures of Dalvin and some random people. It was an extremely unfair 'lineup.' The pressure is so high, the assumption is 'he did it.' There is no judge and jury here. It's just not right."
http://espn.go.com/college-football...da-state-seminoles-strike-woman-attorney-says


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Yvonne's hubby said:


> Interesting, I will have to remember this if someone shoves you around, I will not come to your defense. As I read the article she was struck only once, it happened as his buds were attempting to hold him back. My point was had it been a man, it would never have made the news.


More than likely wouldn't.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

mmoetc said:


> Why do so many who stand up for personal responsibilty want to give so many a pass?


LOL - Even when it is a judge? 


I'm a disgusted FSU football fan. I don't even want to get deep into what this story is about, but regardless of what it might do to the team, FSU should dump him hard and fast if they find guilt on his part.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Jolly said:


> After 34 years in a hospital, I can say mama was right.


Perhaps you should try seeing a different doctor. 

:drum:


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

wr said:


> I spent the latter part of the day working alone with two new hires


:spinsmiley:

{siren sounds} This is the grammar police. Take your hands off the keyboard or I'll :hammer:


:gaptooth:


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

JJ Grandits said:


> My Mama always said, nothing good happens after midnight.



Was she out after midnight much ?


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## AmericanStand (Jul 29, 2014)

Irish Pixie said:


> Some men put up a front of being modern and enlightened but if you scratch the surface they don't feel women are equal to them in any way. I'd say half of men over 55-60 are like this to varying degrees.



Lol 
Really I'm laughing out loud, pop through my nose, my gut hurts laughing. 
You see guys in that age group Walked with the bra burning feminists. 
We worked beside them and for them. 
We know what they can do some where our greatest bosses and coworkers. 
Others thought we personally needed to make up the sins of a thousand generations. 

OPPS I see you are referring to guys OLDER than that. 
Well it was still a good laugh.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I like being a woman and having a man open the door for me, know that I don't like crude language so don't use it around me. I liked being taken care of my husband and being able to stay home and take care of my children. I only worked when they got older and then mostly just part time.
Burning bras was incredibly silly.

I think women who want to be equal to men in every way are missing a lot in their lives. They don't realize that they have it made to be a woman and not a feminist.

Sorry to be O/T.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> Feminism is thinking that women can do anything a man can do but that is not always the case. Most women found out pretty quickly that they could not pass the rigid physical tests that it takes to be a State Patrol officer. Women cannot pull 200lb+ people from cars that have wrecked. That is just one example.


I can bench press and squat a good amount of weight, but my 28 year old daughter wins Strongwoman competitions. At the last one she dead lifted 425 lbs. She'd have no problem with the State Trooper exams. At all. She passed the VMI physical tests when they were more strict than the Marines. I'll have to find the video of her pulling a semi. 

My oldest daughter (31) isn't a lifter but she could pass the State Trooper exam as well. Her best friend owns a gym and her State Trooper husband has the exam requirements listed.


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> I like being a woman and having a man open the door for me, know that I don't like crude language so don't use it around me. I liked being taken care of my husband and being able to stay home and take care of my children. I only worked when they got older and then mostly just part time.
> Burning bras was incredibly silly.
> 
> I think women who want to be equal to men in every way are missing a lot in their lives. They don't realize that they have it made to be a woman and not a feminist.
> ...


I think it's incredibly silly to depend on a fallible person to "take care of you." My mother put up with a philandering drunk because she didn't have an education and the means to support two kids. He "took care of her" too, alcoholism and dead at 49. 

Do you honestly think men don't open doors for me? Do you think that a feminist would be rude and tell them not to? I use crude language so it doesn't bother me in the least. I take care of my man too, and he does the same for me.

"Burning bras" (it's a figure of speech  ) gave women the opportunity for jobs, raises, licenses, and a ton of other rights we never had. 

Just what am I missing? Can you explain?


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## Evons hubby (Oct 3, 2005)

Irish Pixie said:


> I think it's incredibly silly to depend on a fallible person to "take care of you." My mother put up with a philandering drunk because she didn't have an education and the means to support two kids. He "took care of her" too, alcoholism and dead at 49.
> 
> Do you honestly think men don't open doors for me? Do you think that a feminist would be rude and tell them not to? I use crude language so it doesn't bother me in the least. I take care of my man too, and he does the same for me.
> 
> ...


 If I have to explain you wont understand.


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## DEKE01 (Jul 17, 2013)

Irish Pixie said:


> Burning bras gave women the opportunity for jobs, raises, licenses, and a ton of other rights we never had.
> 
> Just what am I missing?





Your bra?




:banana:


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

Irish Pixie said:


> I think it's incredibly silly to depend on a fallible person to "take care of you." My mother put up with a philandering drunk because she didn't have an education and the means to support two kids. He "took care of her" too, alcoholism and dead at 49.
> 
> Do you honestly think men don't open doors for me? Do you think that a feminist would be rude and tell them not to? I use crude language so it doesn't bother me in the least. I take care of my man too, and he does the same for me.
> 
> ...


I am sorry about your mother, really, I am serious. I have a good husband. He has always taken care of me and I have loved it. Bless his heart, he cannot take care of me anymore but we have had 55 great years together. It is my time now to take care of him and I do. He has been a good husband and father and I would do anything in the world for him. I love him and know that he loves me and has been faithful just like I have to him. &#9829;&#9829; 
My daughter has a good husband as well. He does take care of her and their family and she loves being taken care of just like I do. They have been married 23 years. Her daddy took good care of her too.&#9829;&#9829;


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## Irish Pixie (May 14, 2002)

gapeach said:


> I am sorry about your mother, really, I am serious. I have a good husband. He has always taken care of me and I have loved it. Bless his heart, he cannot take care of me anymore but we have had 55 great years together. It is my time now to take care of him and I do. He has been a good husband and father and I would do anything in the world for him. I love him and know that he loves me and has been faithful just like I have to him. &#9829;&#9829;
> My daughter has a good husband as well. He does take care of her and their family and she loves being taken care of just like I do. They have been married 23 years. Her daddy took good care of her too.&#9829;&#9829;


There are millions of women that fall somewhere in between your "perfection" and my mother's "hell". It's better to have something to fall back on if the "perfect man" decides that he's no longer happy. That's what the feminists did- they fought for equal rights for women so they no longer had to stay in hell.


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## gapeach (Dec 23, 2011)

I have always thought that women should be equal to men in jobs if they have the same qualifications. They should get the same wages and promotion opportunities. Women have so many more educational opportunities today than I had. When I graduated high school, basically the only professional jobs available to women were nursing or schoolteacher so most of us went to work right from high school and did not go to college. So if you went to college, you really had only those 2 choices. I am glad that has changed.

My husband has always felt the same about that. When he went to work for General Motors in 1963, their job opportunities were very equal with men and women.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> I notice you chose not to address this question. Why should the young lady have had enough good sense not to go out with a friend on a random night in June?


No, I didn't.

One reason is, the last two days , I've come home near exhausted, I saw this quote yesterday, I think, before I stumbled into the shower and then the bed....

Obviously a woman or a man for that matter, has every right to go out any night of the week, stay as late as they want, and not be accosted, so I don't know what more I could say to that question other than, "I agree with your point and you're right."

But that really wasn't the point at all. I thought I explained it, but I didn't go into greater detail, which I'll probably do in my next post.
Although I have to say, it seems that any attempt at any reasonable explanation of this view is taken to be a defense of the attacker and putting "blame" on the victim, and no matter how many times it's denied, a few on here insist that what is really meant.

I honestly don't have the strength to argue about it, if you won't take me at my word that's not what I mean, then you just won't.

:shrug:


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

This is an example of one such exchange........





gapeach said:


> I do not see where anybody has put the blame on the girl. Sure, she should have known better than to be intoxicated at 2am outside a bar where guys had gathered. That is just plain common sense. Last year a girl was raped there in Tallahassee by a FSU football player.
> We don't know what condition her friend was in but she did go to a car and call 911.
> I really don't see anything that has been said wrong here in all of the posts. Nobody has said that she caused the situation but could have been more careful. It is a cruel world. Some times puppies and young girls are innocent victims of very bad people who would do harm to them. Young girls have to be very careful and carry mace or a cellphone with them at all times.





Irish Pixie said:


> You are blaming her with that statement.




wr's quote below is about as close as I've seen to what the comments made, are really trying to say.




wr said:


> Essentially, there still seems to be a generation that wants to protect women and *I think the comments that we think are laying blame or focusing on what the woman should have done differently are actually focused on ways they believe will keep women safe from harm.*




Yep, and not just women, but everybody.:thumb:

I spent a lot of my younger years hanging in bars til closing time, spent a lot of them shooting a pretty mean game of pool and having the losers pay for my night out. 
There's too many "war stories" to type on this page, but the ones I remember most, the scariest, the most violent all had one thing in common.
I was being relatively "good", minding my own business and not looking for ANY trouble.
But occasionally an example of creeps coming out of the woodwork enter the reality of life.
Fortunately I was always more sober than they were and knew how to take care of myself, but it still happened and the last time, I got beat pretty bad being mugged.

I had left most of my money in the hotel room.
Why? Because I knew better.
Did I expect a mugging? Heck no, no one ever does, but being prepared ahead of time can save your life.

As I was fighting for my life, I was trying to get to the .45 in my glovebox, maybe 50ft. away, too far unfortunately. When I finally got away, and put one in the chamber, the cops pulled up and I quietly slipped it under the seat.
Too little, too late.
Then a few weeks later, before my ribs were healed, a few drunk ******** decided they were going to have some fun at my expense.
This time, the surprise was on them. I had bought a small .25 and carried it in my back pocket, so next time, I could get to my .45.
So I learned, and got more sense as time went on.

Did any of that mean I "blamed" myself?
Absolutely not, I just got more sense in how the world works sometimes.
Live and learn.


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## mmoetc (Oct 9, 2012)

farmrbrown said:


> This is an example of one such exchange........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Once again, there's a difference between not blaming oneself and blaming another. There are likely more than a few who would say you you should have known better than to be in bars drinking and playing pool. Who would tell you you should have more sense than to walk the mean streets at night. Who would lay at least part of the blame on you.

Other than staying home safely locked in her room 24/7 with no outside contact how could this young woman have totally ensured her safety. The statement was made that she should have had more sense than to be there at that time. Why? Did every young woman who walked out of a bar a closing time that night get accosted similarly. Did most. A preponderance. Many ? Few? Or was this an isolated incidence so far outside the statistical norm it couldn't be predicted? Common in sense is protecting yourself and acting in a way to safeguard yourself from foreseeable things. You can't protect yourself from every idiot in the world. I'm sensible enough to know that.


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## farmrbrown (Jun 25, 2012)

mmoetc said:


> Once again, there's a difference between not blaming oneself and blaming another. There are likely more than a few who would say you you should have known better than to be in bars drinking and playing pool. Who would tell you you should have more sense than to walk the mean streets at night. Who would lay at least part of the blame on you.
> 
> Other than staying home safely locked in her room 24/7 with no outside contact how could this young woman have totally ensured her safety. The statement was made that she should have had more sense than to be there at that time. Why? Did every young woman who walked out of a bar a closing time that night get accosted similarly. Did most. A preponderance. Many ? Few? Or was this an isolated incidence so far outside the statistical norm it couldn't be predicted? Common in sense is protecting yourself and acting in a way to safeguard yourself from foreseeable things. You can't protect yourself from every idiot in the world. I'm sensible enough to know that.




I can see your point.
For me, taking that statement as blame or suggested advice would depend on how severe the criticism was. I just didn't take it the same way you did because it was one thing mentioned in a whole commentary. The same way the as the coach coming down on his players for going to bars. I would expect that from a football coach and had a few in my youth give fatherly advice to their players on a range of topics, from grades to girls to partying and good behavior in general.
It could be seen as unwelcome and judgmental meddling or cautionary words of wisdom. As always the choice is yours.

As far as foreseeing all things, no one can be perfect. Almost all of my close calls were unexpected, this was likely the case here.
As I aged, I learned to see more of the subtle signs of an "unexpected" event and more importantly, prepare for those I didn't see coming. There's no way to tell how many, or if any were dissuaded from happening by my situational awareness and precautions.

I don't go anywhere without observing as much as I can around me. It doesn't have to be an intentional attack, it could be that guy swerving on the road behind you or ahead of you. It can be a common event like the eyes of a deer 4 ft. high on the shoulder of the road on my way to work.
I hit one once, but I missed the other three, lol.

Then there is the plan for "what if" when it happens.
Putting on the emergency flashers ASAP is how I managed to drive the car safely to a pay phone. Yes, that's how long ago it was.:ashamed:
But I didn't wreck and didn't walk 7 miles because I kept a level head.

She was smart to go with a friend, she even walked out with her. But she allowed herself to get separated. 
My friends know that in a SHTF moment, I'll use that vehicle as a weapon to save them if needed, and expect them to do the same. We don't plan on taking a beat down when we go out and will do our best to see that we don't.

Even a set of keys protruding from a closed fist is a convenient weapon at hand. You can be sure that no one is going to get the opportunity to get within 5 ft., acting aggressively, without that already being done.

Just a little advice and observation from someone who _does_ think you should be able to make it home safe from a night out, regardless of the circumstances.


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