# Hand Carders! How do you drive these things?



## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Okay, here I am. I have my brand spanking new carders. 

I have learned the heel from the toe. The heel is closest to the handle.
The toe is furthest from the handle. 

I have learned to put the flicked open locks on there. Not too deep, with the cut end towards the heel. Is that right?

I can comb through and get all the fiber (almost) from one card to the other. I can get the fiber off of one card and onto the other one. 

What my hang up is~

How do I get the neps and crumps and diddly-whops (technical terms, you know?) to be separated from the nice longer fibers? I feel like I am just stirring it around. 

I can comb and flip it and comb and flip it. It does seem like the neps go toward the toe. 

THEN what? Hmm? How do you get them out?


----------



## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Well if you only want the long fibers you need combs not cards. "Neps, crumps, and diddly-whops" also happen if you over card. Merino is notorious for this. Longer fibers, 4"+ are also difficult to card by hand, it can be done but you have to be careful. That's my take on it all. If the neps are actually second cuts that are appearing you can just pick those out.

What fiber are you working with?


----------



## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

OK, GAMâ¦â¦â¦I was going to get me a spinning wheel after visiting Cyndi next month, to get some pointers; however, now that I see the hand things âcardersâ seem to be quite a feat to tackle, Iâm heading to ebay to purchase a set. That way Iâll be ready when my wheel arrives! 

Ha ha, plus you get to ask all the questions and Iâll just quietly follow along with your threads :whistlin:â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦ummmm me quiet, probably wonât happen! :grin:

Hmmmm, hand cardersâ¦â¦â¦.drum carderâ¦â¦â¦..hand carderâ¦â¦â¦.drum carderâ¦â¦â¦probably would be best to have them both, wouldnât it? :heh: Good thing UPS comes when hubby is at work! :smiley-laughing013:

Oh, BTWâ¦â¦.I didnât get anything from him for Christmasâ¦â¦â¦.yet, we do Christmas the whole year through, YIPPY! :thumb: I sure LOVE that guy :kiss:, God bless him!


----------



## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Okay, I am working with a few different things. 

I have some shetland with a 4-5" staple. I decided that I dont need to use the hand carders with it. I can spin it from flicked locks. Carding just makes a mess.

I have some merino with a 3-4" staple. Springvalley told me to 'go slow' when carding that. I havent really tried it yet.

I did just work up the last of my flaming sapphire locks of targhee x suffolk. I can get more usable fiber with the cards, but the wool is a lot more free of neps if I hand flick each lock with my slicker brush. So...I am kind of compromising and doing a bit of flicking, then carding. 

I suppose the combs are next on my list. :grin:
I think I will be making them myself, unless I can talk my wheelwright friend into doing it for me...


----------



## Forerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

If you _ever_ have the chance..... sit down with Cyndi and watch her card for a few minutes, especially if she's working with neps and crumps and diddly-whops. :thumb:


----------



## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

Jargon! :grumble:


----------



## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

I work with 2-4 inch long fibers with my hand cards. 

First of all, how are picking the fibers before you card? I always go through mine to loosen them up really well and if there are any fibers that are stuck in a little ball (I think those are called noils?) I pick them out. Also, don't overload it. I found it's less fatiguing to loosen the fibers before carding. 

It will definitely works better with shorter fiber but don't be afraid of carding. It's relaxing and beautiful to see the fiber come alive.


----------



## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

So! 

If you are carding a very fine fiber (like merino) and drag the carder HARD through the locks, you are actually breaking those fibers. 
When they snap, they coil up and become neps (or is it noils?).

In the process of trying to loosen and straighten the fibers,
someone might ACTUALLY be breaking them and causing more mischief than good? :ashamed:


----------



## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

There are a lot of very BAD videos on you-tube.
Ones where they show people gnashing the carders together and breaking the fibers all to bits.

I have spent a lot of time today weeding through them all. 

One lady did say that the teeth should never-EVER hang up on eachother. 
Once that starts happening it is time to flip it off there and start again.

This is all old news to some of you.  
Brand new info for me though. :thumb:


----------



## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

gone-a-milkin said:


> Once that starts happening it is time to flip it off there and start again.


 Iâve been watching them too GAM. Do you mean doff? Am I correct?!?! :happy0035:
I liked the lady named Sue.

That Nancy Today lady needs a new drum carder!


----------



## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

JDog1222 said:


> Iâve been watching them too GAM. Do you mean doff? Am I correct?!?! :happy0035:


Why yes! I mean DOFF. :cowboy:

More jargon = more fun.


----------



## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

More observations:

Some people card their fiber all onto the working card, then they put that one down to become the "resting" card. 
Other people doff the wool from the working card back onto the resting car, only flipped over.

Which is better? Oh, and why?


----------



## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Another way you can deal with the neps, and crumps, and diddly-whops is to go ahead and start spinning and just pick them out while you spin.

GAM do you know if you have "fine" carding cloth or not? If not then you should be careful when you are carding the finer fleeces, Merino and some of the Shetland, and other such fine fibers. You will hurt the fibers and probably break some of them. I think you can call the broken fibers whatever your little heart desires. Noils, BTW, are something that are added to fibers to become a design feature of a yarn. I have a full pound of silk noil. So, not all neps, and crumps, and diddly-whops, and noils are a bad thing.

Another thing to keep in mind. Carded fibers will give you woolen spun yarns, combed fibers will give you worsted spun yarn. You can get wollen spu yarn from combed fibers but you cannot get worsted spun yarns with carded fibers. Carded fibers are not all parallel as then need to be to make a true "worsted" spun yarn.


----------



## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Also look for things written by Carol Rhodes (not sure on that spelling) she writes regularly for Spin Off. I have taken several classes/workshops from her one on Carding and one on combing. She knows of which she speaks. She is a bit anal for me but she is a good teacher and you can learn a lot from her. I believe on of the more recent Spin Offs had an article by her about carding and how to card. I'll see if I can find the issue. You might also want to check on the Spin Off sight for info.


----------



## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

JDog1222 said:


> Hmmmm, hand carders&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.drum carder&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..hand carder&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.drum carder&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;probably would be best to have them both, wouldn&#8217;t it? :heh: Good thing UPS comes when hubby is at work! :smiley-laughing013:


Absolutely both. The hand cards are portable, the drum carder, not so much.



> Oh, BTW&#8230;&#8230;.I didn&#8217;t get anything from him for Christmas&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.yet, we do Christmas the whole year through, YIPPY! :thumb: I sure LOVE that guy :kiss:, God bless him!


We do too! We call it "Happy Thursday" gifts (doesn't matter if it is a Thursday or not!)



> That Nancy Today lady needs a new drum carder!


Nancy Today is fun for entertainment, but I seriously doubt I'd use any of her methods. The first Nancy Today videos I saw were on soap making ... down right scarey!


----------



## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

Oh my gosh, I love Nancy Today but hubby thinks she's crazy. I tease him by saying that I want my kitchen to look just like hers.:heh: she does do some neat things. Look for the fleece rug videos. I think those would make such a comfy chair cover to sit on. She also makes neat baskets! 

But watch out, she very unconventional and will no doubt offend many people!


----------



## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Oh geeze, I had never watched this lady. She seems pretty interesting.

[YOUTUBE]FTPXlL3ERro&playnext=1&list=PL9774AE901F46A339&index=22[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

Oh, GAM&#8230;&#8230;.I see you have met Nancy Today! Watch the one where she makes earrings out of carrots! I can&#8217;t even sit thorough it&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.


----------



## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

I think you need to be drunk or something to really GET her?

"Have you ever seen carrots?" :teehee:

[YOUTUBE]rvOMjbdAl-c[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Her wheel really, really needs to be oiled. She can't even spin properly because the wheel is so dry. She shouldn't be having such a hard time keeping her spinning wheel going.


----------



## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Marchwind said:


> Her wheel really, really needs to be oiled. She can't even spin properly because the wheel is so dry. She shouldn't be having such a hard time keeping her spinning wheel going.


In the next vid, she makes a point of saying that she got it oiled.


----------



## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Sorry for that rant but it drives me nuts when you have someone like that and they are clueless to the voice of their wheel. Now I need to recover before I can watch her again. Right now I have in my mind that she is an idiot. I know probably unfair of me. I'll come around but not until next year


----------



## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Marchwind, I am pretty sure you have a little something there, about Nancy Today. 
The conversation turned to her when we were discussing 'bad you-tube videos'. LOL!


----------



## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

LOL! I know, I do think she is a fruit-loop


----------



## Mrs. Jo (Jun 5, 2007)

I don't think she's a fruit loop at all. And we can all be called idiots at one time or another, sound silly or do something not quite perfect. Takes courage to open your life up to a camera. 

The things she manages to do can be pretty amazing. Have you seen the glass tepee? She calls herself an artist, but I think she's a little bit of a comedienne. This is my favorite video. 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0aBd-bB_Xc[/ame]


----------



## JDog1222 (Aug 19, 2010)

Oh, myâ¦â¦â¦..there just went ten minutes of my life Iâll never get back! :smack


----------



## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

Mrs. Jo, 

I showed my DH the carrot earrings one and he thought it was hysterical. So yeah, it is all open to interpretation on what is funny. 

I agree with her whole principle: that you never know where you are going until you try.
I really do get that. In my own life I try to pay attention to things that bug me and to admit when I am wrong and to TRY! NEW! things. (like this thread shows, I hope). LOL.

I am not disputing Nancy Today for her sheer gumption. She has got that, in spades. 
(as does WIHH, which is why I love her so...:kissy: )

Certainly no offense is meant. :grin:


----------



## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

GAM I'm not very good with hand carders but here's how I work them:

I lay the fibre on the one in my left hand, then I *whap* it with the one in my right hand. Like - line 'em up almost exactly and smack the top one onto the bottom one. Then I roll it upwards, lifting some of the fibres from the bottom card (left hand) to the top card (right hand).

Repeat. Whap, curl, lift. Whap, curl, lift.

When most of the fibre is on the top card, switch hands. Repeat.

Then, when it's all looking like the ends are opened up and it's fluffy-like, take the loaded card in your left hand and then using the other card's top edge, slowly roll the fibres up the loaded card, kinda like you are pushing them upwards. They form a little jelly roll thing (rolag) and you spin from that.

As for the lumpy bumpy bits - I'd say that when you've loaded most of the fibre onto one card, then pick the lumpy bits off the remaining card before you start the next round.

The key thing I have learned is that you don't COMB the fibres with hand cards (although you do with combs..) so there's no dragging from one card to the other - it's a whap and lift, or a roll and lift kind of motion (I'm really brutal with hand cards, I am in awe of people who do this gracefully .... I whap with a good noise, but I've watched really talented people gently roll the fibre from the loaded card to the unloaded card, just rocking the carders together and lifting the fibre from bottom to top).

It's .... one of those mysterious things that eventually just kinda works.


----------



## gone-a-milkin (Mar 4, 2007)

frazzlehead, thank you! ( I have been waiting for your input you know.  )

That is pretty much what I have been gathering. It is not really a combing/grating/gnashing as a rocking/ rolling. More like transferring, not DRAGGING. ?!

I am getting it, little by little. I had this idea I was going to just miraculously clean and smooth and align all the fibers by using this tool. Now I am learning otherwise. 

There are really no true "short cuts" in fiber prep, alas! Each and every fleece is ding-dang different too. Gack. Baby steps for me.

Happy 2011, BTW.


----------



## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Mrs. Jo I certainly didn't mean any offense to you or any one. I have the utmost respect for anyone who can get up there in front of a camera or a crowd and just put themselves out there. That alone take a lot of guts in my book. Also, just because I say she is a "fruit-loop" it doesn't mean it is a bad thing. I love all my crazy friends, heck aren't we all a bit crazy? As I said in my first post about her, it probably isn't fair of me to say anything about her based on just that one video I watched. I will watch others and who knows, maybe I'll subscribe to her channel. I'd never heard of her until this thread.


----------



## frazzlehead (Aug 23, 2005)

Ah, GAM, you were thinking of combed top - where all the fibres are nicely aligned and in order. That's best with long staple fibre, and is done with combs not cards, and often a hackle as well. I use combs for my Icelandic fibre, and it is nice to have the long fine stuff all in a row.

In my VERY limited experience (remember I am a self-taught spinner/knitter/fibre prepper and have only been doing this a few years!) carders work really well on Down breed type fleeces, where the crimp is really tight (combing that stuff would make a saint curse, I think) - and the end result is a pile of fibre that is all airy and open but the directions of the fibres are all higgledy piggledy. That's how it's supposed to be.  Then when you spin it, you get nice airy yarn! So yes, when you are carding, your primary objective is to get everything opened up and the tips all untangled from one another ... and a bunch of the VM will just fall to the floor in the process (and more when you spin, and more when you ply, and you can pick out whatever's left when you knit...) ... 

This person cards like I do - although with less emphatic whapping motions  I whap harder if there's more VM ... or if I've had a bad day. You can see that it's definitely more about transferring than it is about combing.

Combed top gives you very fine thin singles, carded rolags (usually) give you airier, not so tight or fine singles. Of course there's a gazillion other variables involved, but if you wanted nice airy fluffy loosely spun singles, it'd be trickier to spin that from combed top than from nice airy fluffy rolags.

Would one of the more knowledgeable spinners chime in here and tell me if I'm out in left field?


----------



## Marchwind (May 10, 2002)

Exactly right I believe Frazzle.


----------



## MullersLaneFarm (Jul 23, 2004)

Rexene is a true fiber nut! But she really knows how to break down and simplify fiber adventures.


----------

